# Harkovast- A fantasy webcomic



## Harkovast (May 25, 2011)

Harkovast is an anthropomorphic, fantasy webcomic I write and draw (which is coloured by my wife.)

Here is a recent page to give you the idea-








CLICK HERE to read  the archive.


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## Smelge (May 25, 2011)

Didn't you do this thread already?

Obviously, you decided to ignore advice given in that one, and seeing as it is almost 2 years since that thread, and there is some improvement, but not much, then you're still doing it wrong.

Go and look at some anatomy books. Practice. Your poses don't carry any motion to them, so they look like statues. Some of those panels, I have no idea what is going on because it's just too much stuff going on with a poor drawing style. Complex panels can be done, but you need to be able to show what the elements are, otherwise it just looks like a mess.

4 Point Plan:

1 - Practice anatomy
2 - Practice animals
3 - Refine drawings and improve static props
4 - Interact on the forum more, rather than making new threads for the sole purpose of advertising.


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## Harkovast (May 25, 2011)

Forum etiquette is damn complicated!
I assumed since the last time I asked people to take a look it was literally years ago, reposting on the same topic would be viewed as "necro-posting" and annoy you.
I'm kind of amazed anyone even remembers that I posted that one, it was so long ago.
I didn't really do much with FA at the time, I just sort of set up an account and then wandered off to other things. 
More recently I've been posting a lot more on FA so I thought I would have another stab at it, probably as a precursor to getting more involved on the forum in general.

I have to disagree on some of your points, however.
While I admit I'm not great at drawing action or motion (a lot better than I was though), the charge that you cant tell what is going on... I cant really see where you are coming from. Perhaps I am too familiar with the way it looks, but I don't see anything unclear about what is happening. Is anyone else finding it unclear?

With regard to me "deciding to ignore advice", you then go on to say there has been some improvement, implying that I have listened to advice. Don't really know how to respond to that one.

Thanks for taking an interest, even though you didn't enjoy it much.


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## Taralack (May 25, 2011)

The sample comic you posted comes dangerously close to violating the 180 degree rule. I don't know what the next page looks like so I can't say for sure. I also feel like you've blurred the backgrounds too much, and this happens in all of the other recent pages I've seen on your site. Because they're so vividly coloured, this distracts the viewer from where the focus SHOULD be - which is on the characters. It's also blurred too much. There's also too sudden a cut between the fighting characters and the tiger character. Where did he come from? You need to lead up to a panel like that - in the previous panel maybe zoomed out a little more and shown a closeup silhouette of his head. 

The way you do text and speech also looks very VERY lazy. All it is is a line, a white glow and the font Papyrus. I mean, REALLY? That just screams lazy to me. If you're doing the text digitally anyway, make the effort to do actual speech bubbles and use something that is not a stock font. Here is a good list of comic fonts and here is a tutorial on how to do speech bubbles in Photoshop - two resources I have used in the past myself.

I'm personally not fond of the way you draw animals, most of the time they don't come out looking like animals at all. They all look like they might have been designed by a child - eyes are too big and slant in odd ways, heads sometimes don't seem to have a proper shape, ears are at unnatural angles and way too pointy - and if you silhouette them, they will all look the same. A good task to do when designing characters is to block out everything and make it a silhouette, and see if it is still recognisable. http://blog.aviary.com/good-design-lies-in-the-foundation/

Oh and by the way, the URL at the bottom of your post is broken. http://www.drunkduck.com/Harkovast/index.php


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## Stratelier (May 26, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Forum etiquette is damn complicated!


Not really.  Your count of 7 posts within two years does suggest you don't have much experience _being_ and participating on a forum, though.  Could be just from being busy and having to divide your time several ways (we all know what that's like), but on to the subject:

There's nothing wront with doing a webcomic out of personal interest -- however, getting other people to become interested in it is another matter entirely.  I once heard somebody say that a webcomic with great visual craft can survive poor writing, and vice versa, but if both are poor then getting others to read it is basically a lost cause.


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## Smelge (May 26, 2011)

Stratadrake said:


> I once heard somebody say that a webcomic with great visual craft can survive poor writing, and vice versa, but if both are poor then getting others to read it is basically a lost cause.


 
Yeah, I keep saying that.


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## Evandeskunk (May 26, 2011)

It seems "Interesting," but I don't feel like adding it to my web comic queue.


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## Smelge (May 26, 2011)

I think the most offputting part, is that it wants to be a serious story, but the art style looks too immature. That style would work ok for light comedies or one-shots, but for a serious, dramatic series, it just gives the wrong feel.


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## Harkovast (May 26, 2011)

Smelge, well at least it managed to get a reaction from you. 
All be it a bad one!
But you obviously really, really don't like it, so at least it didn't provoke indifference.


Stratadrake, I have lots of places that I post, so this is one I've never paid much attention too until recently.

Toraneko, broken link? That sort of shows how little I have been on here! I will go fix it.

Haha, I think I just remembered why I stop posting fairly quickly last time around. Everyone hated absolutely everything I'd done, so I wandered off.
I will try and weather the storm better this time around.
Maybe I will earn respect for my perseverance, if nothing else.


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## Smelge (May 26, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Smelge, well at least it managed to get a reaction from you.
> All be it a bad one!
> But you obviously really, really don't like it, so at least it didn't provoke indifference.


 
The problem I have isn't the story, it is the art mostly. It has a sound concept going there, but the style really doesn't mesh well with the tone of the strip. It's a harsh contrast between the two. The story you're trying to tell is something along the lines of an epic. The art gives a childish sort of tone to it, like it should be about people chasing around after unicorns.

To pull an epic off, you need people to be able to immerse themselves in the story and get to that suspension of disbelief. Unfortunately, the aforementioned clash between story and art style stops you from hitting that point, and you just lose the feel of the thing.


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## Harkovast (May 26, 2011)

> It has a sound concept going there,


Smelge, that sounded dangerously close to you liking something about it...

Where is the real Smelge? What have you done with him?
*attempts to remove mask from obvious Smelge imposter*


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## Stratelier (May 26, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Stratadrake, I have lots of places that I post, so this is one I've never paid much attention to until recently.


Well you're not alone, there are several places I hang out at, but as my overall post quantity goes FA actually isn't the bottom rung of my list.

As for me?  I agree that the blurred backgrounds in the first two panels are completely unnecessary and distracting to the action at hand.  The motion blur on the top panel implies the "camera" is spinning about the fighters, almost "Bullet Time" style.  That's incredibly difficult to do in still media, and if this is just page one, it's actually a bit disorienting since the reader doesn't already have a preconceived image of the area all this action is taking place in.

As for the second panel, the type of blur implies an active zoom shot -- again, not something one can easily pull off without animation to help.  It isn't until the bottom panel that we get anything to establish the enviroment this whole fracas is set in.  Nor is there any introduction, exposition or narration to clue us in.



> Maybe I will earn respect for my perseverance, if nothing else.


A grudging respect, perhaps.... best case scenario is that one day, years later you look back on all this and think "Wow, I used to draw like _that_?  What was I thinking?"



Smelge said:


> I think the most offputting part, is that it wants to be a serious story, but the art style looks too immature. That style would work ok for light comedies or one-shots, but for a serious, dramatic series, it just gives the wrong feel.


Yes, that's a good way of phrasing it.  The more serious your subject matter, the more serious your level of artistic skill needs to be to convey it.


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## Harkovast (May 27, 2011)

stratadrake hahah, grudging respect sounds cool.
Now I imagine something along the lines of-
"Well, I guess I don't think you are a total douche bag 100 percent of the time...occasionally I don't completely hate you."
I'm kind of proud that you have such a strong reaction to the comic, even though its a negative one.
I like the idea that I can cause active revulsion. As I said to Smelge, its better than inspiring in difference.

I suppose I should point out something that seems to have cause a couple of people confusion at this point (namely Stratdrake and Toraneko, though maybe others had the same problem and did not say.)
The reason there was no speech to explain what is happening or set up for the tigers introduction is that this is a random page that I posted to show what the comic looks like.
The tiger, as well as the plot and situation are all explained on other pages.
This page is just showing them fighting. The reasons for the fighting, where they are fighting and who is fighting has been the subject of numerous other pages.
I sort of assumed you wouldn't want me to post the entire archive on the forum!
Sorry if I did not make that clear, but yes there are actually other pages, both before and after, that establish what is going on.


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## Stratelier (May 27, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> I suppose I should point out something that seems to have cause a couple of people confusion at this point (namely Stratdrake and Toraneko, though maybe others had the same problem and did not say.)
> The reason there was no speech to explain what is happening or set up for the tigers introduction is that this is a random page that I posted to show what the comic looks like.



So this is _not_ page one, then?  Okay.  But the point still remains that it's not a good page to make a first impression with.

And on that note -- what _does_ your first page look like, anyway?


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## Taralack (May 27, 2011)

Stratadrake said:


> So this is _not_ page one, then?  Okay.  But the point still remains that it's not a good page to make a first impression with.
> 
> And on that note -- what _does_ your first page look like, anyway?


 
http://www.drunkduck.com/Harkovast/index.php?p=473701

Not really something I would stick with reading, tbh. Stock cursive font with white glow = lazy lazy lazy. There are much better fonts out there to use than a stock font that comes with Windows XP, for the love of god if you're serious about this comic put some effort into the basic design. Maybe it's just the design student in me speaking, but honestly I cringe every time I see stock font with that stupid photoshop glow.


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## Harkovast (May 28, 2011)

Stratadrake- How does the first page look like? Hahaha, I don't think you should look!
The art used to be worse, so if you hate this page, I think the very first one would make your eye balls bleed.

Toraneko- Wow, I think you've probably got more emotionally involved in the fonts of this comic than anyone else I've ever met (including me!)
I don't want to seem dismissive, as your opinion is reasonable, but I actually kinda like the text with white glow behind it. I think it looks interesting. 
So I cant really accommodate your suggestion because I just don't agree (since it is really just a subjective disagreement about what we like the look of, without an objective right or wrong answer.)


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## Stratelier (May 28, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Stratadrake- How does the first page look like? Hahaha, I don't think you should look!
> The art used to be worse, so if you hate this page, I think the very first one would make your eye balls bleed.


Well, I can see the improvement, but as far as flow goes, at least the first page makes some sort of sense.

And of course, nobody likes any of the fonts that come installed on a PC by default.

Toraneko- Wow, I think you've probably got more emotionally involved in the fonts of this comic than anyone else I've ever met (including me!)
I don't want to seem dismissive, as your opinion is reasonable, but I actually kinda like the text with white glow behind it. I think it looks interesting. 
So I cant really accommodate your suggestion because I just don't agree (since it is really just a subjective disagreement about what we like the look of, without an objective right or wrong answer.)[/QUOTE]


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## M. LeRenard (May 28, 2011)

I've been seeing advertisements for this comic all over the web.  Never bothered clicking it because the art struck me as really amateur, and the ads said basically nothing about the comic.  It was always either a face, or a picture of someone dying, so no indication of what it was about.
Anyway, I went ahead and read the first dozen or so pages.  Is there a story anywhere in this thing?  If there is, it sure takes a long time getting to it.  Maybe it gets good eventually, but the first impression as a new reader is that it's just a webcomic full of pointless battle scenes and exposition about those battle scenes.  Characters we don't know fighting each other over something we aren't emotionally invested in.
So maybe with this thread, you should try to sell your comic?  It looks like you put a lot of work into it.  Obviously, you could stand to learn a little more about figure drawing, but there's lots of detail, and you try complicated things, like perspective and motion.  But right now I'm not exactly buying this webcomic as something I'd want to invest time in reading.


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## Taralack (May 29, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Toraneko- Wow, I think you've probably got more emotionally involved in the fonts of this comic than anyone else I've ever met (including me!)
> I don't want to seem dismissive, as your opinion is reasonable, but I actually kinda like the text with white glow behind it. I think it looks interesting.
> So I cant really accommodate your suggestion because I just don't agree (since it is really just a subjective disagreement about what we like the look of, without an objective right or wrong answer.)


It's bad and it looks bad. I have good reason to be emotionally passionate about this because this is basic stuff that has been drummed into my head at uni. Again, the elitist design student in me speaking, but from everything that I've learnt, there is a reason why using stock fonts and effects like that are bad.
http://www.remindblog.com/2010/04/01/avoid-comic-sans/



> *Lettering is the one thing that people will stare directly at as they read your comic. *Making it blend to your art is important. A badly chosen font will distract people from your work and story. Good typography should be invisible. It shouldnâ€™t call attention to itself unless there is a specific reason for it.



Again, if you are really serious about your comic, do some basic design research and it will look a whole lot better even just from changing the font and adding proper speech bubbles.


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## Stratelier (May 29, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> I've been seeing advertisements for this comic all over the web.  Never bothered clicking it because the art struck me as really amateur, and the ads said basically nothing about the comic.


Amateur is a really correct term for it.  Hey, everyone's an amateur at some point!  But it doesn't help you stand out from the other ninety percent at first glance, so you don't get noticed.



> Obviously, you could stand to learn a little more about figure drawing, but there's lots of detail, and you try complicated things, like perspective and motion.  But right now I'm not exactly buying this webcomic as something I'd want to invest time in reading.



Figure drawing takes discipline, and the best route for that tends to be formal art classes where you do absolutely nothing but draw boring arrangements of mundane objects that the teacher sets down in front of you.  Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit (art was one of my favorite classes in highschool), but the point to be made is that if you can't draw something from looking at it in real life, you won't be able to draw things from your imagination either.  The mind may be sharp, but the hand needs the discipline to match it.

(PS:  be grateful I linked to Wikipedia and not TV Tropes....)


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## Harkovast (Jun 14, 2011)

You make valid points.
As I say, I don't necessarily agree with them all, but I don't want to leap in to argue against you since I did post the comic here to ask what you thought so I don't really have room to complain if you all don't like it.
Le Renard, I could go on to sell the comic to you in terms of why I like it, but if you cant pick up those things from reading it yourself, you shouldn't need me to explain its merits to you. Clearly the merits of it are not obvious to you, but them's the breaks sometimes.
If you really want I can explain it to you, but I get the impression that everyone else on here would not be keen to sit through me going on about it!

Incidentally, I just moved the comic to its own site which you can see here.


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## M. LeRenard (Jun 14, 2011)

I don't really care why you, the author, like it.  I'm talking more from a general standpoint; why would this be worth my time to read?
I'm just saying if you're going to take the time to advertise, you should advertise.  I think from the reaction you got in this thread (and apparently the last one you made here), the 'merits aren't obvious' to most people.  So sell the damn thing.  Do more than post a picture.  What's the story?  Who are the characters, and what are they like?  Is there more to this than scene after scene of people fighting?
Unless, of course, you don't think it's worth my time, in which case forget it.


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## Harkovast (Jun 15, 2011)

Fair enough.
I just didn't want to seem arrogant or like a jerk, arguing against everyone who offers criticism as if I think only my perspective on it is valid.

I think a happy compromise, rather than just gush about it myself,  might be to show you the opinions of some people who liked it.
So here is what a review comic Lite Bites made of it. 
They seemed to really enjoy it, so presumably there is a market for it out there.


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## RedSavage (Jun 15, 2011)

For the hell of it, I shall be reading your comic and giving you a full review.

Well shit. I had about a page written out explaining just about every downfall of the comic, as well as its few redeeming features, but something stupid happened and a page shut down, losing all the work. 

So here's the shorthand version. 

What epic action scenes and interesting battle sequences there are, it's immediately negated by the child-like use of colored pencils. It gets better, but not nearly enough for me to start taking it seriously. I'ma sucker for traditional art, but it's simply not enough. Also, add in with the fact that you have no sense of spatial reasoning for word bubbles, and it leaves something to be desired. (What I mean by this is instead of actually planning where to put the thought and dialogue bubbles, leaving ample and logical spacing for it, every bit of text seems just THROWN in and plastered where it fits.)

The story is also crackpot, jumping back and forth with seemingly no rhyme or reason. It seems narrated by this one fellow (whose name I can't even begin to pronounce), yet I've yet to get a sense of him being the main character at _all_ because there's so much scene switching. On top of that, the characters themselves are one dimensional. They don't really seem like characters, but merely actors shouting lines as loudly as they can. 

So, in the end, Harkovast is like this to me. It's serious toned enough that it should be quite _epic_, but the execution of it is so haphazard that it entirely detracts from it.  The story lacks cohesiveness, the art lacks a mature look, and the characters are too vague for me to even give a damn when they get attacked. And if I could care less that they're being attacked, then why should I even continue reading to find out if they live or not?


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## M. LeRenard (Jun 15, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> So here is what a review comic Lite Bites made of it.
> They seemed to really enjoy it, so presumably there is a market for it out there.


 
Okay, there we go.  I guess it gets better once we're out of the exposition-heavy fighting.  Maybe I'll give the rest a shot, then.


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## Harkovast (Jun 15, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente how many pages did you read and which characters in particular did you find two dimensional? 
Again, I don't want to diminish your view point or treat it as in valid, but you don't really specify which ones you mean.
I can say with reasonable confidence that they are not all two dimension, so I am interested which ones you didn't like?

With regard to coloured pencils, I like coloured pencils. I think they look interesting. If they don't work for you, I suppose that's that. But I would say that criticism is a bit on the level of saying "I don't like anime, it all looks the same". It seems a bit of a superficial judgement. to just dismiss a whole medium out of hand.

With regard to the story being too confusing, all I can say is that most people seem able to follow it, so the confusion is not universal. Was there a particular part you found unclear?

Thanks for taking the time to read it and voice your thoughts anyway.
Perhaps reading the positive review I posted might help spread some light on the comics appeal?


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## Deo (Jun 15, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> I just didn't want to seem arrogant or like a jerk, arguing against everyone who offers criticism as if I think only my perspective on it is valid.


Now I've read this thread, and I've read a bit of your comic. And the thing that bothers me most is this above quote.
I think you honestly have no idea what you're doing, and thus I feel it's necessary to point out your behavior that you seem to be oblivious to.
People give you honest critique to help your amauture comic, and at every single point you do the same thing over and over and over and over again. Do you realize you are doing this? I hopnestly don't think you are being so obtusely rude on purpose, but EVERY single time someone has said something even mildly negative about your comic you basically do this: You ackknowledge that they said something, and then say but I feel differently and thus your advice (from trained artists mind you) is nullified. You go point by point in either dodging everyone's advice and giving an excuse for it, or you try to belligerently counter every bit of help as if it was poisoned daggers. I understand this. A webcomic is your baby, you've invested a ton of time and energy. You're proud of it. But defending and continuing the flaws will only damage you in the long run and obstinately telling everyone that it's great they have an opinion but you're going to completely ignore them is overly defensive. We honestly wouldn't say anything if we wanted you to fail. We'd let you continue down this path of 7th grader art paired with jumpy stories all slammed together in a confusing layout. We'd let you burn and fail, and we watch. But the fact that we went to such lengths to point out the major things that hold your comic back means we care. And you've already baited Smelge for being honest with you and helpful, you've been sort of dickish and defensive across the entire thread arguing and negating every adverse opinion that isn't sugar fed into your eyeballs via text. We get it. You had one good review. Woopie. BUT when you have multiple trained artists, from universities and art schools, and people who critique and read comics often telling you all the same thing YOU NEED TO LISTEN. We're not ganging up on you. We keep saying the same things because those things need to change, if they don't your comic suffers and looks wretched. You can IMPROVE. We can HELP. But not if you continue to fight us over every single thing we say and be evasive. And no, reading someone's good review doesn't change our minds. We read it and we can think for ourselves and formulate our own critiques thank you very kindly. I realize you did not go to art school, you are unused to helpful critique, you don't see it as a means to improve, you see it as an attack that we are "repulsed". We're not and our critique is purely for YOUR benefit. Now stop being childish and read the points we make because they are important to writing and drawing a decent web comic.

And no more of the "Well your idea is okay BUT I disagree so your opinion is useless". Especially with "but". My father has a saying, "When you say 'but' it's only so that you can ignore what the other person just said and do what you already wanted to." Example in case you don't understand that analogy "That's nice but..." The but completely negates the aforesaid. In this manner you keep negating all the advice you are given.




Harkovast said:


> You make valid points.
> As I say, I don't necessarily agree with them all, *but* I don't want to leap in to argue against you


And yet you do argue. On every single piece of advice over two pages. And when your excuses and placations don't work you try to get us to read the review in the hopes that we'll forget reading your comic and just agree with the review and feed you nicey-nicey.



Harkovast said:


> I don't want to seem dismissive, as your  opinion is reasonable, but I actually kinda like the text with white  glow behind it. I think it looks interesting.
> So I cant really  accommodate your suggestion because I just don't agree (since it is  really just a subjective disagreement about what we like the look of,  without an objective right or wrong answer.)


But you are dismissive. See why I am annoyed? _Your opinion is okay and all but I like the sloppy lazy look that appears to be slapped on in MS Paint._



Harkovast said:


> I have to disagree on some of your points,  however. the charge that you cant tell what is going on... I cant really  see where you are coming from. Perhaps I am too familiar with the way  it looks, but I don't see anything unclear about what is  happening.


When someone says it's unclear, look back on your work with a critical eye. Look for the errors so that you do not repeat them. Don't seek out 20 people to tell you the same flaw in your comic before you fix it. There will not be 20 people who will take the time to do this. If one person comes forward, listen to them, for there is 20 other like minded people who agree, but don't care enough about you or your comics improvement to voice the flaw. Simply asking for more people to agree before taking action is a fallacy of apealing to the majority. And you'll never get the feedback on a web comic of this caliber to get a majority.



Harkovast said:


> Haha, I think I just remembered why I stop  posting fairly quickly last time around. Everyone hated absolutely  everything I'd done, so I wandered off.
> I will try and weather the storm better this time around.
> Maybe I will earn respect for my perseverance, if nothing else.


Boo hoo. This one makes me mad too. I get it. You're sensitive. You want to defend the comic that you've invested so much care, effort, and thought into. We all want to protect what we make. But it's better to listen to other people who want to help you. If you were building a house and someone told you the foundation was horribly unlevel you wouldn't tell them that they're just "storming" and "hate" and continue to build a house on an unstable foundation. You'd listen, fix the problem, and in the end have a better house for all the effort.



Harkovast said:


> Now I imagine something along the lines of-
> "Well, I guess I don't think you are a total douche bag 100 percent of the time...occasionally I don't completely hate you."
> I'm kind of proud that you have such a strong reaction to the comic, even though its a negative one.
> I like the idea that I can cause active revulsion. As I said to Smelge, its better than inspiring in difference.


And stop baiting Smelge. We get it, he said things that were honest and they hurt your delicate flower emotions. Boo hoo. Well it's terribly immature of you to keep taking small passive aggressive pot-shots at him.


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## Deo (Jun 15, 2011)

wtf double post


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## Ilayas (Jun 15, 2011)

Man I love it when people come to the FAF looking for ass pats and are sorely disappointed.


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## RedSavage (Jun 16, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> CoyoteCaliente how many pages did you read and which characters in particular did you find two dimensional?
> Again, I don't want to diminish your view point or treat it as in valid, but you don't really specify which ones you mean.
> I can say with reasonable confidence that they are not all two dimension, so I am interested which ones you didn't like?



Alright, fine. I'm going to have to go back and check the names. And first off, Pro-tip. If I'm having to go back and match names and characters together, then that's a bad sign. 

Firstly, you're trying to make Quinn-Tain come off as this mysterious and all knowing type guy, and really he just seems as this intruding character who narrates. it doesn't make sense from a literary point of view. Who is he narrating to? How can it be real time? I don't understand his role at this point, and instead of coming off as real and interesting, it's a bit cliche and boring. 

And as far as Scatterpod and the Ano-Chee are concerned, they seem so flat and uninteresting. The whole raising the dead bit would be neat, but we see none of the processes concerning it. It comes off less mystical and more as a cheap trick to introduce a character. And when Quinn and Scatterpod meet, there's almost no emotion. It's "Hi" and "Oh hai" and "Did you bring this other dude back to life yet?"

*All in all it seems you are depending too much on Quinn's narration to tell the story, rather than letting the dialogue and actions of the characters tell the tale. *

Ki is alright, but he is so fuggin cliche it's hard to stand him. He's the bad boy, the smart ass, blah blah blah he's hardly likable, and in the bad way. We can like a cool asshole. Look at Dr. House and people liek that. They're fun. Ki? He's just this arrogant, badly sketched character. There's no depth to him. 

And that seems to be the thing with most of the characters. Yes, they're unique. But they're all outlines of interesting characters. Distinct, and certainly separate characters, but with little originality. 



Harkovast said:


> With regard to coloured pencils, I like coloured pencils. I think they look interesting. If they don't work for you, I suppose that's that. But *I would say that criticism is a bit on the level of saying "I don't like anime, it all looks the same"*. It seems a bit of a superficial judgement. to just dismiss a whole medium out of hand.



Uh, no. It's just not 'that's that'. Several people have commented on the art style, and just because you like it doesn't validate the fact that it doesn't FIT the type of story you're trying to tell. I no more expect a noir-murder mystery to be drawn with Crayola as I would expect a peace advocate to wear an army uniform while speaking. The medium. does. not. fit.

And that bolded part right there? That has to be the most arrogant bit I've heard you say. NO. I've seen colored pencil comics. HERE. Here's one. It's drawn well and you know what? It's a silly three panel comic. I enjoy it. But it doesn't work for you comic, I'm sorry. 

But I SURE as damn don't want my opinion debunked and dismissed as simply _not_ being a fan of the style I don't review like that. i'm a subjective reviewer, so I'm going to say this once and make myself as clear as possible. 

*I look at what your comic is trying to do and judge it by what it has  achieved.* You call this an epic fantasy adventure? I call it the enthusiastic scribblings of someone who WANTS to tell a good story, and has the potential, but absolutely _refuses_ to offer significant art evolution as a staple of the comic.



Harkovast said:


> With regard to the story being too confusing, all I can say is that most people seem able to follow it, so the confusion is not universal. Was there a particular part you found unclear?



Perhaps I don't mean that the story is confusing. it seems pointless. A battle is fought. Someone is resurrected. Someone gets attacked in the church WHILE Ki has been resurrected and is being arrogant. 

I've just now started the chapter of The Heretic. You at once open with some dull narration, and I see the source of your problem, and the issue I have with this comic. 

You're *telling* me a story, you not *showing me.* Don't TELL me he's a heretic and give me a few panels of blood, insinuating that he killed. SHOW ME all that happened. Give these characters STORIES, not vignettes.



Harkovast said:


> Thanks for taking the time to read it and voice your thoughts anyway.
> Perhaps reading the positive review I posted might help spread some light on the comics appeal?



And I did read the review. It was very flattering. But quite frankly it didn't _work_ for me, and it seems you're skipping over the bits that are critical in favor of the positive. 

But it's not my comic. More so, it's not my kind of comic. But that doesn't make my words any less true. Yes, people like your comic. That's fantastic. And the fact that you do have people who like your comic certainly is something. But that doesn't make it _critically_ well off. Better Days, Concession, and Jack are all popular comics, yet have a HUGE amount of criticism towards them. These are what keep these comics in the 'good' range, rather than being described as total shit. 

But comics like Rice Boy, Lackadaisy Cats, and many others are both popular AND critically successful, which is what makes these comics GREAT, which your comic Harkovast is far from being.

*EDIT*

Also, do be a dear and listen to Deo. She's being rather nice about it, really,  and what she's says is entirely true.


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## Taralack (Jun 16, 2011)

Deo please have my manchild babies


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## M. LeRenard (Jun 16, 2011)

Well... okay, having read a little more of it, I don't think I'm going to go on.
I can see the appeal.  It has fans for the same reason Eragon has fans, or for the reason that people keep watching Sy-Fy Channel Original Movies: it's in a comfortable place.  The characters and setting are all very familiar, since they're basically just archetypes of the fantasy genre (the noble knight, the clever assassin, the wise wizard, etc.).  Stock villains, too; just a nameless threat (literally) that comes in hordes to take over the world, for some reason.  I've seen this all before, many times, and this comic doesn't seem to be adding anything particularly new to the mix.  So it's guaranteed it'll have fans, because this formula has worked in the past.
I will say, for what it is, it's done competently enough, so if you've never read anything fantasy or are just a die-hard fan of the genre, I guess there's no reason not to read it.
The writing, though, is about as amateur as the artwork.  VERY exposition-heavy.  And by that I mean (and CoyoteCaliente pointed this out, too), it's almost entirely exposition.  Characters literally narrate their own personalities.  It has kind of an interesting effect on the storytelling, I guess, but it gets boring really quickly, and it never lets up.  The point of the whole 'show don't tell' idea is immersion; you want to immerse the reader in the story, to make them forget they're reading something.  This style, where characters come into the panel and explain their own personalities and backstories to the reader, does nothing for that.  So it's like, here's a bunch of facts for you to memorize, and by the way, that's the story too.  Hence it becomes boring.
Maybe it gets better later, but I gave it four chapters, so....

Anyway, yeah... read it if you like generic fantasy and can look past the art and the writing.  That's my review.

Hopefully you read and understood Deo's post so you can benefit from these comments.  I'm not just doing this because I'm bored.


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## Stratelier (Jun 16, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> This style, where characters come into the panel and explain their own personalities and backstories to the reader, does nothing for that.  So it's like, here's a bunch of facts for you to memorize, and by the way, that's the story too.



"Hi, I've just been introduced to the audience, so here's my character profile sheet!"  Something like that?

Apologies in advance for linking to TV Tropes, but you gotta at least see the page image for this one:
- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShowDontTell


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## RedSavage (Jun 16, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Toraneko- Wow, I think you've probably got more emotionally involved in the fonts of this comic than anyone else I've ever met (including me!)
> I don't want to seem dismissive, as your opinion is reasonable, but I actually kinda like the text with white glow behind it. I think it looks interesting.
> So I cant really accommodate your suggestion because I just don't agree (since it is really just a subjective disagreement about what we like the look of, without an objective right or wrong answer.)


 
OH. I didn't notice this wonderful little tidbit. 

I don't feel like leaving a large-sized rant, and I already left you a good amount of text that you have not responded to. So allow me to give you a small metaphor with a small explanation. 

Just because a small child likes rubbing shit on himself,  it doesn't make it acceptable. 

As reviewers and readers of your comic, we beleive that word bubbles would be a nice and convenient little addition to this comic. If you're just doing this for yourself and you LIKE not having word bubbles (or using something besides a seventh grade art form), then why even bother posting it online? You know, for once in your life, it wouldn't hurt to please the readers. Maybe then, more people would start to enjoy your comic. 

Read: You're going to have to pander to your audience.


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## Deo (Jun 17, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> Well... okay, having read a little more of it, I don't think I'm going to go on.
> I can see the appeal.  It has fans for the same reason Eragon has fans, or for the reason that people keep watching Sy-Fy Channel Original Movies: it's in a comfortable place.  The characters and setting are all very familiar, since they're basically just archetypes of the fantasy genre (the noble knight, the clever assassin, the wise wizard, etc.).  Stock villains, too; just a nameless threat (literally) that comes in hordes to take over the world, for some reason.  I've seen this all before, many times, and this comic doesn't seem to be adding anything particularly new to the mix.  So it's guaranteed it'll have fans, because this formula has worked in the past.
> I will say, for what it is, it's done competently enough, so if you've never read anything fantasy or are just a die-hard fan of the genre, I guess there's no reason not to read it.
> The writing, though, is about as amateur as the artwork.  VERY exposition-heavy.  And by that I mean (and CoyoteCaliente pointed this out, too), it's almost entirely exposition.  Characters literally narrate their own personalities.  It has kind of an interesting effect on the storytelling, I guess, but it gets boring really quickly, and it never lets up.  The point of the whole 'show don't tell' idea is immersion; you want to immerse the reader in the story, to make them forget they're reading something.  This style, where characters come into the panel and explain their own personalities and backstories to the reader, does nothing for that.  So it's like, here's a bunch of facts for you to memorize, and by the way, that's the story too.  Hence it becomes boring.
> ...


 I very much agree to this. The characters are poorly developed and incredibly flat chliches. It's not like you're artistically going to archetypes, it's just the same old same old re-done with nothing of value added to it to make it stand out in any way. Honestly, the comic is not worth the time in reading it, as there are hundred of things written and drawn with this particular fantasy  plot line, only those are done better and may on occasion be more diverse than the usual fare of humdeedum-mediocre-fantasy.


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## RedSavage (Jun 17, 2011)

Oh, and another thing, Hark, you seem to be very passive aggressive and somewhat condescending in your responses towards criticism. Like this bit here, which has continued to irk me since I first read it...



Harkovast said:


> With regard to the story being too confusing, all I can say is that most people seem able to follow it, so the confusion is not universal.



I could take offense and rage on, but I can say with some certainty that if I can understand Donnie Darko, then I should be able to understand a _complex_ story line. 

The same cannot be said for a _badly written_ story.


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## Harkovast (Jun 17, 2011)

Okay to defend myself a little (and now I feel I am defending me, rather than the comic)...

I seem to be getting blasted both ways here.
When I disagreed with CoyoteCaliente he says my disagreement is the "most arrogant thing" I've said.
When I give a more general response of "sorry you don't like it, you are entitled to an opinion" Deo gives me a vast paragraph about how I don't listen to criticism.

So if I disagree, I am a jerk because I think I am superior, if I say you are entitled to an opinion different to mine, I am a jerk for not listening. I get the impression the only opinion you would accept at this point is me grovelling on my knees, cap in hand, begging forgiveness.

I think you all need to calm down a bit. You are getting very worked up over what is (after all) just a webcomic.  I made it, and I don't get that upset about it.
If you think the comic is bad, then that is that. While I don't think it is perfect, obviously I don't think it is some kind of dreadful nightmarish disaster as a lot of your are suggesting, so you cant really expect me to agree with that type of statement.

I am taking on board peoples suggestions, but I am also not under some kind of obligation to listen to you all, any more than you are under obligation to read it.
But thanks for all your input anyway and sorry I seem to have rubbed everyone the wrong way.


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## RedSavage (Jun 17, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> When I disagreed with CoyoteCaliente he says my disagreement is the "most arrogant thing" I've said.


 
Correction! I think the fact that my opinion was filed away as simply "not being a fan of the style" was complete and utter crock.

I also highly dislike that you refuse to fix the downfalls of your comic (colored pencils, no word bubbles, etc), simply because you _like_ these bits. 

And don't make this about us. Rest assured, I'm talking about your comic and your role as an author, not _you_ as a person. I can understand as a fairly level headed guy that all webcomic artists want to do one thing: Make a good webcomic. So please, I'd appreciate it if you were to READ and take into consideration of all the points I made. 

*Which I worked damn hard on, thank you very much. It was for you, because you asked. Not me. *

That said, we have some sound advice here, if you'd just swallow your pride and think about it. And yes, this IS your comic. You control it. But WE are your potential audience. So if you feel that you have no need to pander to us, then why bother advertising? 

It's a rhetorical question, but honestly it doesn't hurt to take criticism. Experiment. Broaden your horizons. If not, then no worries. There's a thousand and one other comics out there. You just can't expect your comic be popular very long.


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## M. LeRenard (Jun 17, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> I am taking on board peoples suggestions, but I am also not under some kind of obligation to listen to you all, any more than you are under obligation to read it.


Hmmmm... but you want us to read it.  That's why you posted this thread, after all.

Well, while this is a public forum, if you feel this is getting too personal, I can lock the thread for you if you'd like.


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## Ilayas (Jun 17, 2011)

The problem, Harkovast, is that you posted this comic expecting everyone to tell you how awesome it is. Don't deny it you did, and you can't fathom why some one would point out flaws instead of telling  you how awesome it is. You are so connected with the comic you take every bit of criticism as a personal attack.  That more then anything this what is wrong with your comic.  An artist needs to be critical of their own work if they ever want to improve.  This comic seems to be your baby, it can do no wrong, and so long as you think that way you will never improve. It's not that you have to accept every bit of criticism but when different people keep saying the same things over and over it might be something worth looking into.  As the same people that are pointing out the flaws in your comic are the same people who could be potential fans of your comic should you improve. 

We aren't asking you to grovel we are asking you to see the comic as we see it and not how you see it.  We ask you to do this because far more people will see it as we do then see it as you do.   In the end what you do is up to you.  You could ignore every bit of advice we've given and some time latter make another thread of this nature and continue to be shocked that no one is falling over themselves to tell you how much they enjoyed reading your comic.  Or you could take our advice and post another thread of this nature  and instead we'd be talking about how much your comic has improved.  Or you could leave and never come back either way no one here is that much emotionally invested in you or your comic to care as much as you want them to.  You should ask your self why that is (hint it's not because we are soulless web comic hating monsters).


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## RedSavage (Jun 17, 2011)

Ilayas said:


> (hint it's not because we are soulless web comic hating monsters).


 
Yes. 

It is because we are soulless webcomic _loving_ monsters.


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## Deo (Jun 17, 2011)

Harkovast said:


> Okay to defend myself a little (and now I feel I am defending me, rather than the comic)...


I think you were defending yourself all along. This had less to do with you receiving critique and being defensive, and more about you taking it as personal attacks and being defensive. Which is made more obvious by the fact that you've named yourself on heree after your comic (or named the comic after you). It's a Mary Sue, (self-insert character used to vicariously live) but without it being based on a single character that you cling to, and more focused on the comic itself, and criticism of the comic Harkovast is taken as criticism of the poster Harkovast. Which is silly. You are not a comic.



Harkovast said:


> I seem to be getting blasted both ways here.


No it's one direction. We put the dynamite on one side to blow you closer to making a better comic. But you seem to have picked up some hot air and gone off course.
But then again none of us work for mining companies and dynamite is a new experimental way for us to fix your comic's flaws. Note: Not your flaws. Comic's flaws. Differentiate.



Harkovast said:


> When I give a more general response of "sorry you don't like it, you are entitled to an opinion" Deo gives me a vast paragraph about how I don't listen to criticism.


And I wasn't wrong. As you are proving to us YET AGAIN. You know the definition of crazy? Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results. Picking at us when we're trying to help you again and again and again is only going to give you the same result: it annoys us.



Harkovast said:


> So if I disagree, I am a jerk because I think I am superior, if I say you are entitled to an opinion different to mine, I am a jerk for not listening. I get the impression the only opinion you would accept at this point is me grovelling on my knees, cap in hand, begging forgiveness.


I see your comic is not the only melodramatic overly inflated piece of fiction in this thread.



Harkovast said:


> I think you all need to calm down a bit. You are getting very worked up over what is (after all) just a webcomic.  I made it, and I don't get that upset about it.


No we're getting worked up about being insulted. Hell you basically called CoyoteCaliente a retard for not understanding your plot when herpderp others do.



Harkovast said:


> If you think the comic is bad, then that is that. While I don't think it is perfect, obviously I don't think it is some kind of dreadful nightmarish disaster as a lot of your are suggesting, so you cant really expect me to agree with that type of statement.


Maybe it's not Coyote's reading comprehension that should be questioned. You seem to not understand ANYTHING we said. I already told you we wouldn't bother trying to help you if we did not on some level like your comic and genuinely want to see it and you improve. So this hyperbole about us calling your comic a "dreadful nightmarish disaster" is a crock of shit. None of us ever said anything close to that and you are seriously overreacting. Please drop the victim complex and talk to us reasonably. We've made every effort to be polite to you, and yet you try our patience by exaggerated things and making us into some evil comic-loathing assholes. Which is untrue. 



Harkovast said:


> I am taking on board peoples suggestions, but I am also not under some kind of obligation to listen to you all, any more than you are under obligation to read it.


 No you are indeed under no obligation to listen to us. Just as the man who builds his house on quicksand doesn't have to listen to the surveyor's warning. Do as you see fit Harkovast.


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## Heimdal (Jun 17, 2011)

Well, this thread was kind of interesting.

Harkovast, you're antagonizing your critics. While you're not nearly as bad as some other amateur artists can be, you're still doing it. It is meaningless. If all you are going to do is defend yourself, then there is no purpose in having a thread here at all. You think you're backed into a corner, and the only response the critics will accept is grovelling, and that's a weird misunderstanding on your part. There is one very simple and obvious answer the critics want to hear, and I cannot fathom why it hasn't crossed your mind:
*
"I will take that into consideration, and give it a try."*

The key part is the 'give it a try' part. Nobody cares if you disagree with something, if you don't intend to even try and find out, then you are just being obstinate. This is why people try on clothes, right. If you don't want to change anything simply because you disagree, then you are wasting everyone's time, and hindering your own progress. Trying a new font, or using a speech balloon, isn't permanent. You can experiment with it, and then revert back if you establish that you can't get it to work right for you. You can sketch out a page with a new format if you want. This is a fantastic idea to mess around with even if nobody explicitly advised it.

When you ask for advise, an expectation of change and (at least) effort is expected from those who give it. Cram it and do some work. This is pretty much the only answer the people here want.


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## Taralack (Jun 18, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> When you ask for advise, an expectation of change and (at least) effort is expected from those who give it. Cram it and do some work. This is pretty much the only answer the people here want.


 
The fact of the matter is, we have given advice and comments on how to make your comic better, and instead of acknowledging that we're trying to help you - taking time of our own lives, mind you - instead you shoot down every single piece of positive advice that might make your comic better, citing excuses that "you don't like it that way" or "no one else says so". 

Think of it like this - a friend of yours comes to you for advice. You give them the advice they need, but in the end they do not act upon it and just brush it off because they don't like what they're hearing. How would you feel then? That's how everyone who has commented in this thread feels.


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## Stratelier (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm only skimming the thread (I have aversion to large "walls of text"), but I get an impression that Mr. Harkovast is playing the "it's my endeavor and I'll do what I want to dammit" card a bit much -- it's technically _true_, but the more you play it as a defense against criticism, the less mature you look to everyone else.

I think part of the problem is that your comic has been running for awhile so you've inevitably become *entrenched* in doing what you're already doing, in the same way as you've always been doing it.


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