# Internal PC upgrading for noobies?



## Nocturnowl357 (Jan 31, 2009)

I made a thread a while back asking for help choosing an already made rig. I keep looking at already made ones but they're either fishy, crappy or expensive. I'm looking to at least do some minimal upgrading for this thing, the only problem is I need advice. I thought of just buying a video card, a few sticks or ram and a graphics card but then I keep seeing alot of other stuff thats required for the thing in order to make it run, preform, ect. So my question to you is this, Would you know of any guides that would help someone like me upgrade this PC internally?


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## Runefox (Jan 31, 2009)

> I thought of just buying a video card, a few sticks or ram and a graphics card


I should start off by saying that a video card and a graphics card are the same thing. 

Anyway, I don't have a guide off-hand, not like there would be a universal upgrade guide that would really cover every situation, so I'll go over a few things that you can do to learn a bit about what you _already have_. Knowing this, you can figure out where you need to go, and where you can and can't go.

CPU-Z, which I referenced in another topic, will tell you pretty much everything about your computer that you'll need to know for your upgrade. It'll tell you what kind of processor you have, what socket it fits into, what kind of RAM you have, how much and how many slots, what kind of video card you have or can install, and so on. So, the question is, what do you have now?

Pay specific attention to: 

*CPU tab*
"Processor Name"
"Package"

*Mainboard tab*
"Manufacturer"
"Model"
"Graphic Interface -> Version"
"Graphic Interface -> Link Width / Max Supported"

*SPD tab*
(Check each slot; Look for each non-empty slot, make a note of how many empty slots you have)
"Module Size"
"Max Bandwidth"


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## jagdwolf (Jan 31, 2009)

Problem with upgrading is that your still limited by your mother board and powersupply.  

So let me ask a few questions that might help save you some heart ache.

What is your mother boards name and number so I can look it up to see what its limits are.

What are you going to be using this rig for?  gaming school work graphic design etc

how much money do you have to spend.

these are the same questions I ask any client of mine when they ask me upgrade their rig for them.  As to doing it yourself, it really is not that hard, and can be very rewarding if you have a plan.  If you don't and you frankenstien your rig, you will be cursing yourself all day long.

Let me know and I will give what advice I can.


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## Nocturnowl357 (Feb 1, 2009)

Alright, first is Jagdwolf.

Motherboard...don't really know. CPU-Z doesn't seem to give the model. Or is it mainboard? The maker and model is First International Computer, inc model K8MC51

Using it for moderate gaming. Nothing big, just getting them to run at low or medium rate without lag.

Not really sure as far as money wise. If it sounds like a reasonable price then whatever recommended, ill try looking into.

As for kit's questions:
AMD Sempron 3100+ processor package Socket 754

main board model and manufacturer I already said before. Don't know what the graphic interface is but it does give the chipset. NVIDIA GeForce 6100

I have two slots of memory. None free since I borrowed some ram cards from my bro a while back. Max bandwidth on both is PC3200 [200 MHz]

anything else I'll try to answer


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## Runefox (Feb 1, 2009)

Sounds like you have a fairly old system. Your RAM type will be DDR400, or PC3200 as you said, which is legacy DDR (NOT DDR2). It's a little more expensive, but overall not too too old. You might be able to squeeze 2GB into it, but depending on how old/picky the motherboard is, you might be limited to 1GB (2x512MB).

Your biggest problem will come with trying to upgrade the processor (which would be a big issue here), since your processor is a rather low-end CPU for its day, and is getting on in the years, too. It's not possible to buy new processors for this socket (754), and you'd be limited to a single core, which won't be worth the upgrade.

Your motherboard is rather obscure; From what you've told me elsewhere, you have an eMachines brand computer, which would mean that it's going to be difficult to ensure that if you were to upgrade to a better one, your computer would work at all due to the tower's internal layout. I've seen several eMachines computers that needed to be nearly completely gutted and replaced to upgrade.

More than likely, it being an eMachines, it won't have an AGP slot (CPU-Z tends to confirm this if it has no information about your graphics interface), and being older, it won't have a PCI-Express slot, which leaves us with PCI. Currently, the best I can think of that your PC would be able to support that you can still actually buy might be a GeForce 6200, which isn't much better than your onboard chipset.

Being an eMachines, your power supply is also probably a 200W - 300W proprietary unit, which won't work with a different motherboard and would also have to be replaced if you were to go that route.

... In other words, the outlook is pretty bleak as far as upgrades go for that particular system. Your power supply would be a definite problem if you tried to upgrade the motherboard, as would the tower itself, and your CPU can't be upgraded since they don't make them anymore. Your video might be upgradeable if CPU-Z is wrong and you do, in fact, have AGP, but the PCI option is definitely not worth the money for the small gain in performance coming from your onboard video. The other problem with that is that if it IS AGP, you need to get a low-power card (like a Radeon HD 3450 or a GeForce 7600GS) because it's not likely your system will be able to handle the power draw with that small power supply.

The only thing I can really recommend at this point barring a new PC is to add more RAM, try and cut back on the number of programs running at once (like virus scanners, IM clients, etc), and turn down the graphics settings in-game to the minimum settings. Adding RAM at this point, however, may be unnecessary since it's pretty much going to waste if you were to buy a new PC later on. It might be best to try and bear with it for the time being. If you're feeling particularly adventurous, however, you could pop the side panel off and tell me how many and what colour of horizontal slots there are starting about halfway down the motherboard. White are PCI, black is PCI-Express, and brown is usually AGP.

PCI slots usually look like this:







PCI Express slots usually look like this:






AGP slots usually look like this:


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## ToeClaws (Feb 1, 2009)

Runefox pretty much has hit all the nails on the head with this one.  With a system that old (socket 754 has been off the shelves for a few years now).  More importantly, it does not support dual core CPUs.  This is important when it comes to the type of video card you put in.  

Modern cards from the Radeon HD3000 family and up, and the 8000 nVidia family and up count on the special abilities of a dual core (or more) CPU.  In fact, in your case, the nVidia half of that is irrelevant anyway because they stopped making AGP cards after the 7000 series.

Anyway, about the best AGP card you could put in without wasting money would be something like the Radeon 2600 series, but as Runefox pointed out - you need power.  A 300W power supply is defininitely not enough for a better video card unless you go with the low-power options.  New power supplies though aren't overly expensive - you can pick up a 450W for around $50.  

BUT... there sanity check here is that if you add up the cost of a new video card, RAM, and a new power supply, you'll find you're not too far off from the cost of just replacing the core of the thing with something a little newer.  It comes down to what you plan on trying to do with the thing when it's rebuilt.  

If you're just gonna surf the Net, use IMs, send e-mails and play simple older games like WoW or Morrowind, then what you got with a minor improvement will be fine.  If you want to play Bioshock and Fallout3... then you may need to retire that thing.  And the cost of a bare-bones system to replace the obsolete core of yours is pretty cheap.  Case in point:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4329711&CatId=1916

That's vastly more powerful than what you have now, plus, it gives you a modern architechture on which to use better/current video cards and not be subject to 101 different restrictions.  That, in fact, will probably cost you _less_ than trying to beef up what you have.


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## Runefox (Feb 1, 2009)

> you can pick up a 450W for around $50.


I need to stress that this probably won't work with an eMachines-brand motherboard, since they swap a few of the pins for no particular reason. It may or may not go up in smoke, but chances are it's not going to work unless you replace both the power supply and the motherboard.


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## Nocturnowl357 (Feb 1, 2009)

damn...well I'm glad I asked here before running out and wasting money. I'd expect someday to retire this thing and be able to build my own [with a bit of research, it should be simple]. I guess for now, I'll deal with this rustabucket PC. Even though it would be nice to just fit a new graphics card on this, I doubt it would work from what you guys told me about the power supply. 

Its not like I'd use this PC for high end gaming. This is kinda a family PC and my ma isn't too safe about checking where she goes online.


Oh and regarding the PCI slot, if that picture isn't flipped then I have a PCI express. But that shouldn't make a lick of difference now.


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## Runefox (Feb 1, 2009)

Well, if you DO have a PCI Express slot in your PC, you can buy a low-power video card (like the Radeon HD 4650, the 3450's newer, shinier, more efficient cousin) and then transfer it to the new one when you do decide to upgrade. It should at least give your graphics some oomph, even if your PC otherwise is a bottleneck. If you wanted to stick with NVidia, a 9400GT will suffice for you, but it won't be as powerful, and won't save you any more power consumption over the 4650. If price isn't a big deal and nor is the brand, a Radeon HD 4650 would be great for you, since it draws about as much power as its less powerful cousins, and provides a bit more performance. If price is big, then either an HD 4550 or a GeForce 9400GT would be equivalent, and draw about equal power. And finally, if brand is a big deal, the 9400GT is your best choice.

I'd like to stress that you should pop open the side of your computer and take a look at the wattage rating for your power supply. If it's less than 300W, you might have a lot of trouble trying to get a video card to run in it. If it's more than that, you should be OK with the lower-power cards, though realistically you should have a 400W power supply at minimum. However, many test PC's that I've seen with these cards average out at below 200W at load, so your mileage may vary. It's always good to have extra power to spare, though.


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## Nocturnowl357 (Feb 2, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Well, if you DO have a PCI Express slot in your PC, you can buy a low-power video card (like the Radeon HD 4650, the 3450's newer, shinier, more efficient cousin) and then transfer it to the new one when you do decide to upgrade. It should at least give your graphics some oomph, even if your PC otherwise is a bottleneck. If you wanted to stick with NVidia, a 9400GT will suffice for you, but it won't be as powerful, and won't save you any more power consumption over the 4650. If price isn't a big deal and nor is the brand, a Radeon HD 4650 would be great for you, since it draws about as much power as its less powerful cousins, and provides a bit more performance. If price is big, then either an HD 4550 or a GeForce 9400GT would be equivalent, and draw about equal power. And finally, if brand is a big deal, the 9400GT is your best choice.
> 
> I'd like to stress that you should pop open the side of your computer and take a look at the wattage rating for your power supply. If it's less than 300W, you might have a lot of trouble trying to get a video card to run in it. If it's more than that, you should be OK with the lower-power cards, though realistically you should have a 400W power supply at minimum. However, many test PC's that I've seen with these cards average out at below 200W at load, so your mileage may vary. It's always good to have extra power to spare, though.



I really hate to say this but its impossible to open up my PC. The last time I had to get into it, one of the screws musta been stripped making it impossible to open, thus leaving me to rip open the damn thing with my bare hands! I can reach inside to poke around and squeeze stuff in but thats about it. And about the video cards:

Radeon HD4670
http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Rade...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1233552057&sr=8-1

Couldn't find the one you mentioned [at least not on amazon but im using it as a quick price check. I would doubt this working on my rig. Am I right?

GeForce 9400gt
http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-01G-P3-N...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1233552186&sr=8-1

I saw this a few days ago...this is the one your speaking of, right? If so then it doesn't look too bad. Hell of alot better specs then the one I've got.

Sorry with all the question kit. Just seem like a pretty reputable guy when it comes to this. After this, it should be all I need for the time being. It will be a LONG while before this box the boot.


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## ToeClaws (Feb 2, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I need to stress that this probably won't work with an eMachines-brand motherboard, since they swap a few of the pins for no particular reason. It may or may not go up in smoke, but chances are it's not going to work unless you replace both the power supply and the motherboard.



ARG... that sucks - one more reason on a list of thousands not to buy proprietary stuff.


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## Runefox (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't have much time here, but the HD 4670 is a much faster card than the 9400GT, and from what I've read, not much more power consumption, either.

That said, if you can't open the case, how are you planning to upgrade the computer? And with THAT said, why not break off the screw?


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## Nocturnowl357 (Feb 2, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I don't have much time here, but the HD 4670 is a much faster card than the 9400GT, and from what I've read, not much more power consumption, either.
> 
> That said, if you can't open the case, how are you planning to upgrade the computer? And with THAT said, why not break off the screw?



don't really mean to bombard but i can open the case. But ill look into the readeon hd 4670.

oh and for importance. I shoulda put the model number before:

http://www.e4me.com/support/product_support.html?cat=Desktops&subcat=W-Series&model=W3107

The specs list is under a tab there.


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## jagdwolf (Feb 2, 2009)

Having looked at the sight you gave and then looking for that motherboard my honest suggestion would be flush the toilet on this one and start over.

Why? Limited ram upgradability, slow slow ram bus speed, old chipset arch. Old northbridge and southbridge, limited space for video upgrade (physical size of card)

and the list goes on.  sorry but you can put a jet engine in a drag racer, put one hell of a driver behind the wheel, put the hotest fuel in the tank, but if it only has a dirt road to drag on, well you get the picture.

start new.  I hate to tell you that but your throwing good coin after bad.  gladly answer any questions if you wish to ask.


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