# 2013 rewriting attempt



## Gryphoneer (Dec 26, 2013)

Pardon me if it's been confirmed somewhere already, but is this legit?


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## Blekarotva (Dec 26, 2013)

isn't it kinda early for April Fool's joke?
On a serious note, I hope it is


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## nrr (Dec 26, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> Pardon me if it's been confirmed somewhere already, but is this legit?



It is.


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## thoron (Dec 26, 2013)

nrr said:


> It is.



The question is why hasn't any of the administrators or site tecks made mention of this?


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## nrr (Dec 26, 2013)

thoron said:


> The question is why hasn't any of the administrators or site tecks made mention of this?



That's a good question, one for which I don't have an immediate answer. We can only speculate right now, but the running theory is that FA's management doesn't want to get everyone's hopes up in the event that Zaush fails at his endeavors to deliver a new iteration. That is, if he does fail, FA's management can just say it was strictly his thing while disavowing that he received any support or blessing from them.

We hope that's just speculation and not entirely true. We hope.


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## Stratelier (Dec 26, 2013)

Another good question is how open (aka accessible to user observation) is this project he's working on?


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## Sar (Dec 26, 2013)

Before you fling out exaggerated criticisms about it, it would be a good idea to wait for some more development on this. 
Soon™


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 27, 2013)

Why not ask yak? Surely he knows about it.


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## Etiainen (Dec 27, 2013)

thoron said:


> The question is why hasn't any of the administrators or site tecks made mention of this?


I can list a few (hundred) reasons which will be covered up by massive PR attempts if this really is legit.

First and foremost: He has no idea what he's doing.


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## Gryphoneer (Dec 27, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> Why not ask yak? Surely he knows about it.


That's pretty much what this thread's meant for, to elicit official commentary.

If they don't sit out the holiday season excuses for the communications breakdown become scarce.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Dec 27, 2013)

I wouldn't worry my tiny head with this.
Chances are this never works out.


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## Etiainen (Dec 27, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> That's pretty much what this thread's meant for, to elicit official commentary.


Could just blow up Neer's twitter since apparently that's the best place to get news about anything about the site, more so than the actual site itself. I heavily doubt we're going to get a response within the next month otherwise. Clearly the administration has no idea what's going on and therefore can't comment on it, and as far as mods are concerned, they're only in the loop after begging to know what's going on before mass banning anyone who suggests that someone isn't doing their job - Which is usually the case 99.9% of the time unless it involves Tyra Banks.

On the most unlikely scenerio that this really is the case however, it'll probably end up like the Furocity merger flop: Forgotten, a waste of time, and a massive PR bandaid - Followed by a bunch of drama and reminders of how incompetent everyone working for FA is.


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## Mewtwolover (Dec 29, 2013)

thoron said:


> The question is why hasn't any of the administrators or site tecks made mention of this?


Because it would cause huge drama and make people move to other sites due to Zaush's reputation.


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## Etiainen (Dec 29, 2013)

Whether they're hiding it or not, it's going to come back and throw a monkey wrench into the community if they choose to address it later as opposed to sooner - IF this is actually going on.


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## Lobar (Dec 29, 2013)

FA: Never failing to fall short of even your lowest expectations.


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## Erethzium (Dec 29, 2013)

Inb4 we get teaser screenshots of the "redesign", and then it never comes and 5 years later the mods say it's "on the backburner"


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## Armaetus (Dec 29, 2013)

Didn't we already have a "Beta" version in development many months ago? What the hell happened to that?

Also, I won't believe it until the primary site has changed. When I see it I will believe it.

And for god's sake, why Zaush? Could we not pick anybody with a worse rep than him?


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## nrr (Dec 29, 2013)

Glaice said:


> And for god's sake, why Zaush? Could we not pick anybody with a worse rep than him?



Zaush is, apparently, doing this all on his own volition.


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## Etiainen (Dec 30, 2013)

Glaice said:


> What the hell happened to that?


Lost in database crash.


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## Myr (Dec 31, 2013)

I was involved in the recent rewrite work that was going on publicly in the forums here. I haven't heard of this other effort until today. I haven't heard from anyone about it.

My artist friends have been trying to talk me out of doing recode work.

Edit: I'm going to make sure to torpedo the efforts that were started on this forum after having read more about this. Professionals shouldn't be working free of charge to make real change while social status is regarded more important than skill and credentials.


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## benanderson (Jan 1, 2014)

Me and Myr along with Nanuk are already developing a website Myr got blessing for, directly from Dragoneer, back in October 2013!

If Dragoneer has turned his back on us three just because Zaush is a pop-fur I am going to be steaming mad. All three of us have worked our arse off to get FA 2.0 off the floor - Myr has a good Database Schema in place, nanuk has been bouncing ideas left, right and centre and I've almost completed the front-end design language and was going to start rolling out final templates sometime in January 2014.

Please, if someone out there has a direct line to Dragoneer and Zaush, could you give them a gentle prod and remind them that _us three already exist?_ We should combine our efforts together, not have two conflicting teams.

-Ben


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## nrr (Jan 1, 2014)

https://github.com/hsuaz

So, wait, what's this?


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## benanderson (Jan 1, 2014)

nrr said:


> https://github.com/hsuaz
> 
> So, wait, what's this?



THE ACTUAL FUCK!?


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## LizardKing (Jan 1, 2014)

nrr said:


> https://github.com/hsuaz
> 
> So, wait, what's this?





> found this code on a USB stick at HOPE



The hell is HOPE? Also it's just another re-upload of the old Ferrox code isn't it?


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## benanderson (Jan 1, 2014)

LizardKing said:


> The hell is HOPE? Also it's just another re-upload of the old Ferrox code isn't it?



It is old Ferrox code! It clearly states that its well over 4 years old!

The hell is Zaush doing!?


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## Dragoneer (Jan 1, 2014)

benanderson said:


> Me and Myr along with Nanuk are already developing a website Myr got blessing for, directly from Dragoneer, back in October 2013!
> 
> If Dragoneer has turned his back on us three just because Zaush is a pop-fur I am going to be steaming mad. All three of us have worked our arse off to get FA 2.0 off the floor - Myr has a good Database Schema in place, nanuk has been bouncing ideas left, right and centre and I've almost completed the front-end design language and was going to start rolling out final templates sometime in January 2014.
> 
> ...


Zaush originally was brought on to do UI development, and things escalated a bit. I'll be completely honest and state that things slipped my mind over the past three months -- my personally life has been sort of a living hell in a lot of areas, and it was not intentional. I got your note earlier and will be trying to coordinate and see what we can do to make the communication better and go from there.

EDIT: Quite a few people are linking to this comment. An explanation: I never completely forgot about a "second team" because I was never aware there even was a second team. Other than an initial email asking permission to help (which I said yes to) I never received any further contact from them within the past four months, and was not aware they formed a team and started work. I did forget they sent an email, yes, and was unable to remember any further communication. After looking into it, there never was any further discussion -- thus I forgot about simply because I was never made aware.


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## Gryphoneer (Jan 1, 2014)

.


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## Gryphoneer (Jan 1, 2014)

So, does that mean forced merging between team benanderson and team Zaush as the best case scenario?


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## Dragoneer (Jan 1, 2014)

Gryphoneer said:


> So, does that mean forced merging between team benanderson and team Zaush as the best case scenario?


Eh, there's a bit more to it at the moment. I'm trying to find out what's going on -- noted Ben Anderson directly on FA.


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## RTDragon (Jan 1, 2014)

Well already this is not going to end well for certain.


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## benanderson (Jan 1, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Well already this is not going to end well for certain.



If done wrong, no. If done right, yes. If the little team I'm already in continues its momentum and planning regardless of merger or not, something genuinely usable will come from it - even if its just a platform for another team to jump off of for their system.


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## Sar (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm now curious to see both benanderson's and Zaush's mockups of the site now it's sparked my attention.


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## Accountability (Jan 1, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Zaush originally was brought on to do UI development, and things escalated a bit. I'll be completely honest and state that things slipped my mind over the past three months -- my personally life has been sort of a living hell in a lot of areas, and it was not intentional. I got your note earlier and will be trying to coordinate and see what we can do to make the communication better and go from there.



If your life is to the point where you can't remember approving a different *massive recode project* literally weeks before approving another one, you REALLY ought to reconsider your involvement with the site and perhaps transferring it to someone or a group of people who are in a better position to run it. 

Seriously.


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## Myr (Jan 1, 2014)

Accountability said:


> If your life is to the point where you can't remember approving a different *massive recode project* literally weeks before approving another one, you REALLY ought to reconsider your involvement with the site and perhaps transferring it to someone or a group of people who are in a better position to run it.
> 
> Seriously.


Actually, that's my fault. I exchanged some notes with Dragoneer about a rewrite back in October way before BenAnderson and everyone else got involved during the December shutdown. Then my vehicle took a dump on me causing me to take on commissions to make sure I had fun money for MFF. I had figured I would have been done a while ago, but commissions only just recently got cleared out. They proved quite a bit more popular than I had ever expected. I prioritize art over volunteer coding because I do technical things (commonly coding) all day at work every weekday. Not exactly the thing I'm jumping for joy to do at home in my free time. However, I did post back-end progress. It's not as flashy as the front-end stuff you can see and touch so most people missed it.

So yes, my fault. I should have been more focused on getting a response. My communication attempts while FA was down was rather bad, and I never did send an update after my vehicle had broken down months ago. I had expected to be done a while ago and set an estimated time for completion before I had the vehicle problems. Nobody poked me to see how things were going and art proved to be attention-stealing. FA took a backseat to other things.

Looks like Zaush is on this now. I had originally envisioned making a better FA. One built with a lean and fast database that cached and sharded like an enterprise system. One built on Java to handle the huge load of this site. That is not compatible with the current direction, so I will bow out.


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## Willow (Jan 1, 2014)

Myr said:


> Looks like Zaush is on this now. I had originally envisioned making a better FA. One built with a lean and fast database that cached and sharded like an enterprise system. One built on Java to handle the huge load of this site. That is not compatible with the current direction, so I will bow out.


And I'm guessing because they're not compatible there's no easy way to make it so they can be?


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## Myr (Jan 1, 2014)

Willow said:


> And I'm guessing because they're not compatible there's no easy way to make it so they can be?


Nope! He wants to do the site in JavaScript. So all previous work in Python and PHP is out the window. Anything I would have done in JSP is likewise not going to work. He already has his own HTML and CSS so no concepts or mock-ups shown here can be used either. The only thing that could be used is the SQL database setup that I was working on, but they're going to be working from the existing database apparently (wow, how did they get that?). If this is successful, and that's a big if, you'll get a new coat of paint and new background logic which may or may not improve things on FA's scale (purely depends on implementation). Maybe it'll work, maybe not. Who knows! All I know is that I'm no longer contributing and therefore I will stop reading this forum soon.


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## nrr (Jan 1, 2014)

Willow said:


> And I'm guessing because they're not compatible there's no easy way to make it so they can be?



The two perspectives are mutually exclusive.


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## GraemeLion (Jan 1, 2014)

So, and seriously, how many other people think they're working on the next FA codebase?


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## Myr (Jan 1, 2014)

nrr said:


> The two perspectives are mutually exclusive.


Yep! Building a better FA is different than improving only what is already here.


GraemeLion said:


> So, and seriously, how many other people think they're working on the next FA codebase?


Just Zaush and his friends now.


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## Willow (Jan 1, 2014)

Myr said:


> Nope! He wants to do the site in JavaScript. So all previous work in Python and PHP is out the window. Anything I would have done in JSP is likewise not going to work. He already has his own HTML and CSS so no concepts or mock-ups shown here can be used either. The only thing that could be used is the SQL database setup that I was working on, but they're going to be working from the existing database apparently (wow, how did they get that?). If this is successful, and that's a big if, you'll get a new coat of paint and new background logic which may or may not improve things on FA's scale (purely depends on implementation). Maybe it'll work, maybe not. Who knows! All I know is that I'm no longer contributing and therefore I will stop reading this forum soon.





nrr said:


> The two perspectives are mutually exclusive.


Figures.



Myr said:


> Yep! Building a better FA is different than improving only what is already here.


I guess that would depend on how you look at it. Or how I'm thinking of it rather. 

But I assume that when you say it's an improvement upon what's already there, they're [Zaush] basically just taking whatever software the site currently using and trying to make it better?


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## Etiainen (Jan 1, 2014)

GraemeLion said:


> So, and seriously, how many other people think they're working on the next FA codebase?



No one.


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## nrr (Jan 1, 2014)

Willow said:


> But I assume that when you say it's an improvement upon what's already there, they're [Zaush] basically just taking whatever software the site currently using and trying to make it better?



Not quite. He's trying to write new software to interact, at least in part, with the current database design. (I agree with Myr in saying that this, for the long term, is a bad move, but I can see the value in using it in the short term.)

Nevertheless, it definitely is a pretty polarizing issue.


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## Willow (Jan 1, 2014)

nrr said:


> Not quite. He's trying to write new software to interact, at least in part, with the current database design. (I agree with Myr in saying that this, for the long term, is a bad move, but I can see the value in using it in the short term.)
> 
> Nevertheless, it definitely is a pretty polarizing issue.


Ohh, I see now. 

At first it just sounded like everyone was working on their own separate part, but that makes more sense. I'll say that given the current situation I agree too because then it makes it sound like Zaush's efforts are only to keep the site moving for a bit.


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## nrr (Jan 1, 2014)

Willow said:


> At first it just sounded like everyone was working on their own separate part, but that makes more sense. I'll say that given the current situation I agree too because then it makes it sound like Zaush's efforts are only to keep the site moving for a bit.



I honestly don't know enough to make any conclusions to that effect at all. I just know that there are two parties pretty much duplicating work and doing so with different philosophies. Worse, what I have is substantially based off rumor and speculation, so that puts any sort of ability to draw conclusions on a dodgy foundation.

The only conclusion I can draw is that one or either project will fail because there isn't enough focus on operations, but hey, that's cool. Fuck ops. They're just a hindrance anyway.


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## benanderson (Jan 1, 2014)

Zaush, to me and Myr, also showed quite a lack of knowledge, which is probably why he's going with NodeJS - he's probably picked that one language up the best and stuck with it. It became even more worrisome when he started belittling me and Myr, thinking we were unintelligent in the subject - according to himself, he has been a "PHP Pro" for 12 years! Pretty sure he's not old enough to have been doing Pro PHP for 12 years. When he said PHP was FAR slower than NodeJS, he wouldn't accept me or Myr's reasonings to use it, it was ALWAYS about speed and nothing more - not maintainability, not flexibility with its settings, not its ability to distribute easily etc. despite the fact that both of us have worked for large corporations (and have credentials to prove it) and he just expected us to take his "skills" at face value. Even his "proof" that showed PHP being slower clearly stated in plain english that the test was Biased to Node JS - and the Graphs he constantly pointed out showed NodeJS having higher CPU usage as well, kind of ruining his argument of "less resources".

He wants things done his way regardless of logical reasoning. I like NodeJS, but for FA's usage I don't think it'd be a good fit - Java, PHP, Python et al. I think would be better but he just wouldn't have it. Even something as powerful as Java he shunned away because NodeJS is apparently some magical elixir that fixes EVERYTHING.

The final nail in the coffin was when he flat out patronised me, asking me basic questions like "Explain to me, what are Database Indexs?" - I didn't answer, playing dumb, and he replied with how Index are slow (???) even though _by definition_ an Index is a *faster method for data retrieval.* He actually dodged his own question with a hair-brained answer that in itself was incorrect. He even said how we had NOTHING to show for our month of work except for the fact that we DID and I even explained it in detail + our future plans - yet he didn't show us anything in return except a PDF with some bullet points for "development milestones" (that didn't really make a whole lot of sense because they included no real back-end work) and two mock-ups that looked like knock-offs of Weasyl with rounded corners. He says I can't take criticism, yet he thinks his mockups where _the shit_ and bit down on us when we pointed out things we didn't like; yet my front end was actually made based on _user-criticisms and feedback._ He says he doesn't want idea men, either, and no crowdsourcing because to him that is "designed by committee" and that is bad, _apparently_.

He said that anyone who didn't share his drive was dead weight, he didn't want to motivate people and he was going to be a hard ass, me being busy with my real world job and Myr trying to pull money together to fix his car meant that "we were not suitable for the position" because our full attention was not on the subject - he even went as far to call Myr's money management pathetic if he couldn't afford to fix his car! It was a LOT of money Myr had to fork over! Like, *A LOT*, he needs to make it back somehow!

*Zaush lives up to his name of being an insufferable jerk.*

Me and Myr bailed.

According to Zaush it is _HIS_ project, along with ONE of his friends. Two people in total, everyone, and I'm not even sure they really know what they are doing.

Likelihood of this actually going somewhere? *HA.*
Get used to Weasyl and SoFurry, folks, because what Zaush has in store will mostly likely fall over in a heartbeat. The way he was describing it all, it really did sound like a bit of a mess.

Yeah, I'll probably get banned for spitting bile about him, heck I may even get a white knight or two he's such a damned stereotypical Pop-Fur! But damn oh damn oh DAMN! People needed to hear this.

Don't expect anything, and if it does work, expect it to break instantly due to lack of adequate planning.

If he asks you to work with him, don't. He wants yes men and bitches and will break you if you have an idea that conflicts with his.

I'm done. Peace out. Enjoy your new FA if it ever gets here or even works. My team? Its dead, everything has been removed from public viewing because *Zaush wont allow us to do anything.*


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## nrr (Jan 1, 2014)

benanderson said:


> *Zaush wont allow us to do anything.*



It's like 2006 all over again! You have my sincerest condolences.


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## Myr (Jan 1, 2014)

nrr said:


> It's like 2006 all over again! You have my sincerest condolences.


That's a good way of putting things!

I'm not going to say anything beyond what I've already said on this matter. Honestly, I was rather quiet during the conversations earlier. I'm not going to get all riled up over a *volunteer *project.


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## benanderson (Jan 1, 2014)

Myr said:


> I'm not going to get all riled up over a *volunteer *project.



Yeah, I've calmed down loads since that little rant 
I don't care about the project anymore, not at all, its just the patronising attitude he has that got under my skin because wow, I worked hard to get where I am with those qualifications and I will not have someone belittle my efforts.

But yeah, water under the bridge now! Now I can focus on what really matters, _the new GT sports car I'm test driving on the 4th! *HUBBA HUBBA! <3*_

Followed the same day by the new Mercedes A-CLass AMG Sport <3


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## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> Yeah, I've calmed down loads since that little rant
> I don't care about the project anymore, not at all, its just the patronising attitude he has that got under my skin because wow, I worked hard to get where I am with those qualifications and I will not have someone belittle my efforts.
> 
> But yeah, water under the bridge now! Now I can focus on what really matters, _the new GT sports car I'm test driving on the 4th! *HUBBA HUBBA! <3*_
> ...



Its a shame cause I'm normally against much change on the site but I was liking the quick mock up you showed during the outage.


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## Runefox (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> According to Zaush it is _HIS_ project, along with ONE of his friends. Two people in total, everyone, and I'm not even sure they really know what they are doing.
> (...)
> *Zaush wont allow us to do anything.*





nrr said:


> It's like 2006 all over again! You have my sincerest condolences.


.

Yet another FA rewrite DOA because of interpersonal drama and egoism.


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## benanderson (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> Its a shame cause I'm normally against much change on the site but I was liking the quick mock up you showed during the outage.



I was quite happy with it too :/
Was working on the iPad and phones at last! All I had to do from that point on was get more feedback on the design and split the pages off into PHP modules! Month or two tops for full code and documentation if time permitted. Its a damn shame it has to be thrown out now :c



Runefox said:


> .
> 
> Yet another FA rewrite DOA because of interpersonal drama and egoism.


It seems to be a common pattern on FA.

1) People work in an effective team
2) Egomaniac comes along and makes it "HIS PROJECT"
3) Teams hates egomaniac attitude
4) Team bails
5) Egomaniac fucks up and has no one to fall back on
6) "Here lies FA 2.0"


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> Zaush, to me and Myr, also showed quite a lack of knowledge, which is probably why he's going with NodeJS - he's probably picked that one language up the best and stuck with it. It became even more worrisome when he started belittling me and Myr, thinking we were unintelligent in the subject - according to himself, he has been a "PHP Pro" for 12 years! Pretty sure he's not old enough to have been doing Pro PHP for 12 years. When he said PHP was FAR slower than NodeJS, he wouldn't accept me or Myr's reasonings to use it, it was ALWAYS about speed and nothing more - not maintainability, not flexibility with its settings, not its ability to distribute easily etc. despite the fact that both of us have worked for large corporations (and have credentials to prove it) and he just expected us to take his "skills" at face value. Even his "proof" that showed PHP being slower clearly stated in plain english that the test was Biased to Node JS - and the Graphs he constantly pointed out showed NodeJS having higher CPU usage as well, kind of ruining his argument of "less resources".


Not to say it can't happen, because I knew people in middle school who were super advanced with coding and already trying to build their own computers, but it's highly unlikely that he's a pro. This also assumes his FA age is correct but still. 

I guess he's one of those people who equates being fast to being able to run well. Which, the two go together usually but I'm sure you get the idea. 



> He said that anyone who didn't share his drive was dead weight, he didn't want to motivate people and he was going to be a hard ass, me being busy with my real world job and Myr trying to pull money together to fix his car meant that "we were not suitable for the position" because our full attention was not on the subject - he even went as far to call Myr's money management pathetic if he couldn't afford to fix his car! It was a LOT of money Myr had to fork over! Like, *A LOT*, he needs to make it back somehow!


Something tells me he's one of those guys. You know. The ones who believe that because they don't have money troubles then no one else should or else they're terrible. 



> *Zaush lives up to his name of being an insufferable jerk.*


I don't even know him nor do I care much for his art and even by just going to his page I can feel the douchebaggery radiating from my screen. 



> According to Zaush it is _HIS_ project, along with ONE of his friends. Two people in total, everyone, and I'm not even sure they really know what they are doing.


Yeah but Zaush has been a "PHP Pro" for 12 years. The site is totally in good hands :V

In all seriousness though, it's kind of unfortunate though because what you guys had going definitely would have looked and probably worked way better for a number of reasons. And while I don't exactly feel that placing blame on anyone or anything really helps, it's pretty obvious that the whole thing was just handled in a pretty haphazard way. Everyone has their own obligations and this coming up in the middle of the holidays among other things made it worse. 

I mean you've all pretty much bowed out, but at the same time, I'm sure everyone (or at least most everyone) else would have rather the whole thing been just scrapped while this team gets the chance to regroup and then open up better lines of communication instead of this and leaving it up to someone even sketchier than Yak and possibly just leaving the site to tank. 

And this probably wouldn't make any bit of difference or even help shed light, possibly making the situation even worse, but where _has_ Zaush been in all of this? Aside from the apparent work, if he's so adamant about his own project, then why isn't he on the forums?


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## benanderson (Jan 2, 2014)

Willow, the thing about computing is that, yes, you can pick up a book and practice your arse off in school to be an excellent programmer.

The problem is that *that means very little in reality!* What sets the excellent programmers from the poor is their *Experience in real world applications.* Its one thing being a guy with a book going _"I'm gonna make a website and it'll do this!"_ compared to _"You have a detailed list of requirements that you must follow to the letter, the system must be foolproof"._

I am not the best coder, I'm clearly not - but put me in an office with a set of requirements with a guy who just freshly graduated and the guy who freshly graduated will struggle where I'll excel because I've got experience and I know how it all works in the real world. I know plenty of people who will say pretty much the same. Its like when I got HP systems training, I can rattle off what I learned and to do something - actually putting my hands inside the equipment for the first time after getting my certification turned into _"oh... uhm... this thing here... errrrrr give me a moment .___. "_ - someone had to watch over my shoulder for a few months until I, you guessed, got the experience!

I really wish I could get something together and up and running - I really, REALLY do! I was having a barrel of fun working with a nice little team on a fun project that a lot of people were going to love and it felt good! Then it got ugly and turned into something just as stressful as my actual job, except I wasn't being paid for it!

I posted on Tumblr that I was no longer working on FA 2.0, that Zaush was now in charge and that FA will sink like a stone - within 5 minutes someone said, and I quote:


> It, sadly, won't be too much longer. I already know that with Zaush being the head of the new project that nothing good can come of it.



He has a reputation, and that reputation is terrible.


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> Willow, the thing about computing is that, yes, you can pick up a book and practice your arse off in school to be an excellent programmer.
> 
> The problem is that *that means very little in reality!* What sets the excellent programmers from the poor is their *Experience in real world applications.* Its one thing being a guy with a book going _"I'm gonna make a website and it'll do this!"_ compared to _"You have a detailed list of requirements that you must follow to the letter, the system must be foolproof"._
> 
> I am not the best coder, I'm clearly not - but put me in an office with a set of requirements with a guy who just freshly graduated and the guy who freshly graduated will struggle where I'll excel because I've got experience and I know how it all works in the real world. I know plenty of people who will say pretty much the same. Its like when I got HP systems training, I can rattle off what I learned and to do something - actually putting my hands inside the equipment for the first time after getting my certification turned into _"oh... uhm... this thing here... errrrrr give me a moment .___. "_ - someone had to watch over my shoulder for a few months until I, you guessed, got the experience!


That was part of my point. The kids I knew in middle school did it for fun though and had parents who actually worked in the field though. I guess where I was going was that age and experience don't always equate (because 12 years would mean he was 18 when he started using this) but like I also said, it's highly unlikely he'd be that great in 12 years. :I

And it's pretty obvious he's not and probably wasn't the best pick for this task at all. 



> I really wish I could get something together and up and running - I really, REALLY do! I was having a barrel of fun working with a nice little team on a fun project that a lot of people were going to love and it felt good! Then it got ugly and turned into something just as stressful as my actual job, except I wasn't being paid for it!


If you haven't already, I wouldn't throw out your stuff just yet really if you can. 

It's still a shame it turned out this way though.


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## benanderson (Jan 2, 2014)

Willow said:


> It's still a shame it turned out this way though.


Its just all taken offline. Data for one team member who completely switched sides (as he was "playing the game", end quote), has been deleted from my server and is never coming back. But my front-end and Myr's database Schema? Still on our local machines. If anything does happen we can just whip it back out and continue from where we left off.


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## Runefox (Jan 2, 2014)

I think the whole point behind experience vs lack of experience is that it's one thing to know how to do something, and another entirely to put it all together. For me, I'm not nearly well versed enough in writing PHP/SQL from scratch to attempt putting something like this together from bare metal, and no amount of reading PHP books will help with that to be frank. Put me in front of HTML and CSS though, which I've been doing both personally and professionally for something like a decade, and it's a different story. You'd call someone like me a web designer or maintainer, not a developer (as much as I'd like to transition to the latter description).


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## Freehaven (Jan 2, 2014)

Congratulations, FA higher-ups (and Zaush) - not one day into 2014 and you already alienated a group of developers from working on your site!

I'd applaud your accomplishment, but...yeah...


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## Kangamutt (Jan 2, 2014)

Freehaven said:


> Congratulations, FA higher-ups (and Zaush) - not one day into 2014 and you already alienated a group of developers from working on your site!
> 
> I'd applaud your accomplishment, but...yeah...



I'll provide the applause. 

REALTALK: You messed up, Neer. I really can't put it in a nice way, but this was a really big screwup, personal life getting in the way or not. If I were you, I'd can Zaush's project, seeing as according to what's been said, is just going to be putting a really shiny strip of duct tape over what we've got now with a project gone dead 4 years ago, while benanderson and Myr have been busting their asses on rebuilding the site from the ground up. I'd be doing everything I can to get those two back on the ball. Been way too many quick-fixes to what we have now, time to start fresh.


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## Danne (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> He wants things done his way regardless of logical reasoning. I like NodeJS, but for FA's usage I don't think it'd be a good fit - Java, PHP, Python et al. I think would be better but he just wouldn't have it. Even something as powerful as Java he shunned away because NodeJS is apparently some magical elixir that fixes EVERYTHING.



That's quite silly, considering that Java/JSP (as well as C#/ASP.NET) is simply faster than any other web framework for sites as large as FA, which boils down to the fact that it is a compiled language. Not only that, but its powerful because of the large class library. 

Posting this so that non-technical people can understand how silly he (Zaush) is being. Its a classic case of technology fanboyism.


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## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> Its just all taken offline. Data for one team member who completely switched sides (as he was "playing the game", end quote), has been deleted from my server and is never coming back. But my front-end and Myr's database Schema? Still on our local machines. If anything does happen we can just whip it back out and continue from where we left off.



Well, at least you've still got the harassment to look forward to.

Because how dare you know how to make websites better than someone who has made his name doing nothing but drawing dog porn.


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## Williamca (Jan 2, 2014)

I say let the furaffinity users vote on what they want. I think we all know what the outcome of that would be though.

Considering Ben admitted to actually taking the time and seeing what people wanted most would lean towards him. As he is actually showing due diligence in what to incorporate into the design. Along with for the sites future in mind in terms of coding.


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## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

Williamca said:


> Considering Ben admitted to actually taking the time and seeing what people wanted most would lean towards him. As he is actually showing due diligence in what to incorporate into the design. Along with for the sites future in mind in terms of coding.



What, versus an egotistical popufur with one of the highest fanbases on the site?

You really think that the sensible option is going to win out against a bunch of fantards voting up their favourite dogdick purveyor?


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## Williamca (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> What, versus an egotistical popufur with one of the highest fanbases on the site?
> 
> You really think that the sensible option is going to win out against a bunch of fantards voting up their favourite dogdick purveyor?



Honestly? I'd like to think/hope so. 
It'd just be more of the community spreading the word for Ben on the other hand. Whom actually has a proof of concept in terms of UI appearance that users like and want.

I do realize that's still a very slim chance even at that. As I have seen it commonly used by artists to use their popularity to get a items upvoted to win a contest.


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## benanderson (Jan 2, 2014)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> I'll provide the applause.
> 
> REALTALK: You messed up, Neer. I really can't put it in a nice way, but this was a really big screwup, personal life getting in the way or not. If I were you, I'd can Zaush's project, seeing as according to what's been said, is just going to be putting a really shiny strip of duct tape over what we've got now with a project gone dead 4 years ago, while benanderson and Myr have been busting their asses on rebuilding the site from the ground up. I'd be doing everything I can to get those two back on the ball. Been way too many quick-fixes to what we have now, time to start fresh.



It will actually be lipstick on a pig. The old database will STILL be there! They're just writing a new front-end and tweaking the business logic to be more of the same, just now based on NodeJS.
In the short term it COULD act as a stop gap, but I think this is their actual development strategy long term and it will just fall over again.



Danne said:


> That's quite silly, considering that Java/JSP (as well as C#/ASP.NET) is simply faster than any other web framework for sites as large as FA, which boils down to the fact that it is a compiled language. Not only that, but its powerful because of the large class library.
> 
> Posting this so that non-technical people can understand how silly he (Zaush) is being. Its a classic case of technology fanboyism.


I would strip naked and paint my privates day-glow fucking pink if I could get ASP.NET and MSSQL running on the website! People always give MS shit, but ASP.NET on a website like FA would be all kinds of magical! Plus, ease of development - do you know how quickly you can get good, working ASP out the door? Hint, VERY.



Smelge said:


> Well, at least you've still got the harassment to look forward to.
> 
> Because how dare you know how to make websites better than someone who has made his name doing nothing but drawing dog porn.


How dare I, indeed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrhXSehUrg



Williamca said:


> Honestly? I'd like to think/hope so.
> It'd just be more of the community spreading the word for Ben on the other hand. Whom actually has a proof of concept in terms of UI appearance that users like and want.
> 
> I do realize that's still a very slim chance even at that. As I have seen it commonly used by artists to use their popularity to get a items upvoted to win a contest.


As much as I admire and am flattered by your optimism, I have 879 watchers, he has over 44,000. I could sing the fucking YMCA from atop of the house of lords with a full orchestra and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. "PENIIIIIIS" always wins over "I have a competent array of skills, experiences and qualifications" - skills, by the way, that he refused to disclose to me other than "I manage a team" and "I'm a 12 year PHP Pro!". Meanwhile, I have diplomas hanging on my wall and more from the likes of HP stashed on my hard disk, and will very happily take photos of them to prove my competence - JFC I was close to scanning my old Pay Cheques I was that Livid!

Could someone tell me if he has ever actually worked for British Airways? He told me he did, and it was a good example of how a bad PHP website:
*1)* I worked for British Airways on their global website, _they use JSP._
*2)* _BRITISH_ Airways! What, did he fucking fly all the way over to Newcastle Upon Tyne in England to get this Job!? That's where the main offices are that house all the IT and Dev staff! *He lives in America!*


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## Danne (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> I would strip naked and paint my privates day-glow fucking pink if I could get ASP.NET and MSSQL running on the website! People always give MS shit, but ASP.NET on a website like FA would be all kinds of magical! Plus, ease of development - do you know how quickly you can get good, working ASP out the door? Hint, VERY.



Preaching to the choir mate!  I code in C# & ASP.NET MVC/Web API and MSSQL/Postgres at work, and I just love these technologies so much. I do that for my hobby projects as well, although I tend to use Postgres as my DBMS instead since SQL Server has some high costs of ownership involved. 

But there is certainly no denying that Microsoft is king as far as development, debugging, and testing tools/frameworks are concerned. We in the .NET world are really spoiled when it comes to these things.


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## Duality Jack (Jan 2, 2014)

Really? Java? *sigh*


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## GraemeLion (Jan 2, 2014)

There are a wide variety of technologies that could accomplish this.  Yes, Java/JSP could.  So could Python/Flask/etc.  Or Pyramid.  Etc. 

This is not a complex task.  FA is a tiny site compared to many of the others on the web, and the mistakes FA makes and the ways to solve those are common, textbook examples.

Everyone's going to argue for the technology that they know and love the best, but the problem with FA isn't necessarily that the technology is bad, but that the implementation of that technology is poor.


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

I can't reply to the while quote but Ben, I've no doubt he worked at British Airways. As an intern. Studying abroad in college.

Which means he probably didn't really do anything extensive. And wasn't there for that long


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## RTDragon (Jan 2, 2014)

Sigh how disappointing how this turned out and already into the new year. I wonder where is Zaush with his site mockup site? Since i assume no one has seen it yet.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

benanderson said:


> Wrote some stuff...


Since you decided to post this... *deep breath*

No, it's not "one of his friends". The other person involved is somebody I picked based on recommendations, skill and background. Again, not one of Zaush's friends (nor one of mine, for that matter). Further, the mock-ups (not sure what he showed you) are based on variations of the current UI, but revised and modified with a flat UI. It's not a copy of Weasyl, it's a flat-design that incorporates part of my 2013 UI revisions (unreleased and DOA at this point) and current FA standards.

Second, not one single attempt for this entire re-write was done while communicating with FA admin staff. This is my biggest beef. You're dragging this out, and not once was there a single attempt at communication. Instead of coming to me directly about the issue where we could have discussed things you decided to make it public.

There was zero communication from the start, and it was NOT on my side. In September, Myr asked if permission could be granted to start work on this project, and I said yes. That was it. That one note sums up the entire response, discussion, coordination or involvement between FA staff and this project. Permission was asked, I granted it, and it died from there. I assumed it went no where, because nothing was ever brought, discussed or mentioned since. 

_How am I supposed to know anything has been done when I've never even gotten so much as a response to the initial inquiry._

Zaush was brought on originally to work on the UI, and solely the UI. And it grew from there. To be honest, I'd completely forgotten I'd given permission to Myr because, again, I never go to much as a single reponse back other than the initial inquiry. You can not engage in a project of such scale and outright exclude site staff.

There's been a lot of issues in the past with development, but this one is NOT mine. You can not reasonably expect for a project of this nature to work when communication does not exist whatsoever. You can not be upset that Zaush and I are working on our own project when there's been nothing but radio silence on somtehing of this nature. I didn't even know you were working on this until last night.

There was an entire communication level breakdown, and (for once) it was not on my side. Excluding the site owner from the entire discussion is not the way to go about this, whether intentional or accidental.

As for Zaush was asking your those questions because he was trying to gauge your level of knowledge. Rather than just bring people on blindly, he wanted to know where your experience was, your strengths and weaknesses.

I can not speak for the money management/supposed insults as I was not privy to that, nor do I want to be. 

But I won't take the blame for this project dying when three people could not be bothered to take the time to discuss things with me, nor so much as work with me.


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## nuggets2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Zaush originally was brought on to do UI development, and things escalated a bit. I'll be completely honest and state that things slipped my mind over the past three months -- my personally life has been sort of a living hell in a lot of areas, and it was not intentional. I got your note earlier and will be trying to coordinate and see what we can do to make the communication better and go from there.



Zaush is not a coder or a manager of any sort. You need a project manager and also need to put Zaush in his place. He's not a sheep dog, he'd a sheep making lots of noise, pissing off a lot of people along the way.

You know 'neer, I would've gladly helped and even gotten some VC funding since I'm in the fold of a few major groups(even though I tend to be a big fucking troll), though the boat sailed a long time ago. FA is large enough to go after VC funding, burn cash and turn around the community to a cash positive company if you had any initiative to do so. While FA being a self funded start up type might be fun, you could actually have a positive revenue stream coming in at the same time and not be jobless or have a shit-tier paying job while getting furs like myself to work for you. There are sure to be a few other furries in the league I'm in who can help get you funding.



Myr said:


> Nope! He wants to do the site in JavaScript. So all previous work in Python and PHP is out the window. Anything I would have done in JSP is likewise not going to work. He already has his own HTML and CSS so no concepts or mock-ups shown here can be used either. The only thing that could be used is the SQL database setup that I was working on, but they're going to be working from the existing database apparently (wow, how did they get that?). If this is successful, and that's a big if, you'll get a new coat of paint and new background logic which may or may not improve things on FA's scale (purely depends on implementation). Maybe it'll work, maybe not. Who knows! All I know is that I'm no longer contributing and therefore I will stop reading this forum soon.



I seen this and my head wanted to explode. He's picking Node.JS because it's "cool" instead of the base language and features the implementation gives to the developer. I told Zaush up front what he's doing is wrong along with a few critiques and I won't be giving him any tips since I usually work with companies and startups which are at least 50-100M users and can pay be an arm and a leg. He apparently got his feathers in a bunch and went in a defensive mode.

Far as HTML and CSS goes, mock-ups should be done first, then you integrate those designs in to the code. Many people Slow down their own projects by writing the backend first and trying to create the frontend around the code.
1) create the mock design
2) create a template from the mock design
3) QA
4) deploy



benanderson said:


> Zaush, to me and Myr, also showed quite a lack of knowledge, which is probably why he's going with NodeJS - he's probably picked that one language up the best and stuck with it. It became even more worrisome when he started belittling me and Myr, thinking we were unintelligent in the subject - according to himself, he has been a "PHP Pro" for 12 years! Pretty sure he's not old enough to have been doing Pro PHP for 12 years. When he said PHP was FAR slower than NodeJS, he wouldn't accept me or Myr's reasonings to use it, it was ALWAYS about speed and nothing more - not maintainability, not flexibility with its settings, not its ability to distribute easily etc. despite the fact that both of us have worked for large corporations (and have credentials to prove it) and he just expected us to take his "skills" at face value. Even his "proof" that showed PHP being slower clearly stated in plain english that the test was Biased to Node JS - and the Graphs he constantly pointed out showed NodeJS having higher CPU usage as well, kind of ruining his argument of "less resources".
> 
> He wants things done his way regardless of logical reasoning. I like NodeJS, but for FA's usage I don't think it'd be a good fit - Java, PHP, Python et al. I think would be better but he just wouldn't have it. Even something as powerful as Java he shunned away because NodeJS is apparently some magical elixir that fixes EVERYTHING.
> 
> The final nail in the coffin was when he flat out patronised me, asking me basic questions like "Explain to me, what are Database Indexs?" - I didn't answer, playing dumb, and he replied with how Index are slow (???) even though _by definition_ an Index is a *faster method for data retrieval.* He actually dodged his own question with a hair-brained answer that in itself was incorrect. He even said how we had NOTHING to show for our month of work except for the fact that we DID and I even explained it in detail + our future plans - yet he didn't show us anything in return except a PDF with some bullet points for "development milestones" (that didn't really make a whole lot of sense because they included no real back-end work) and two mock-ups that looked like knock-offs of Weasyl with rounded corners. He says I can't take criticism, yet he thinks his mockups where _the shit_ and bit down on us when we pointed out things we didn't like; yet my front end was actually made based on _user-criticisms and feedback._ He says he doesn't want idea men, either, and no crowdsourcing because to him that is "designed by committee" and that is bad, _apparently_.



PHP slow? I'm not very fond of the language and know it's quite the speedy demon.(facebook even uses and modifies the zend engine), he clearly hasn't a fucking clue. He didn't even grasp concepts like using ActiveMQ or RabbitMQ, using a memory cache like redis or memcached. The project needs an architect, Zaush definitely isn't the right choice for heading off the project.

The language to me doesn't matter, but I'd expect someone to be using the language for at least a few years before saying, "We should go with X." My work takes me in to scaling code in various languages, making everything highly available and can say, "languages don't cause problems, people do." People who want to believe benchmarks are a special bunch who don't want to understand VM startup vs code execution time, they never consider having code running under long running processes which process requests. i.e. Java servers, processes running under uWSGI, FastCGI, etc with a long running PHP/Python/Ruby process.

I ask during interviews, "Show me your github(or bitbucket) account" No GH/BB, buh bye~~


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## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

nuggets2 said:


> Zaush is not a coder or a manager of any sort. You need a project manager and also need to put Zaush in his place. He's not a sheep dog, he'd a sheep making lots of noise, pissing off a lot of people along the way.
> 
> You know 'neer, I would've gladly helped and even gotten some VC funding since I'm in the fold of a few major groups(even though I tend to be a big fucking troll), though the boat sailed a long time ago. FA is large enough to go after VC funding, burn cash and turn around the community to a cash positive company if you had any initiative to do so. While FA being a self funded start up type might be fun, you could actually have a positive revenue stream coming in at the same time and not be jobless or have a shit-tier paying job while getting furs like myself to work for you. There are sure to be a few other furries in the league I'm in who can help get you funding.



The problem with VCs is they want things in return, be it stock or profit shares... and generally want a say in how things are run as well. I did look into that in the past. I'd rather have an angel if possible, but I feel our content would be the damnable factor in that aspect.


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## nuggets2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> The problem with VCs is they want things in return, be it stock or profit shares... and generally want a say in how things are run as well. I did look into that in the past. I'd rather have an angel if possible, but I feel our content would be the damnable factor in that aspect.



Implying VCs don't fund dating and sex-related sites. I know worse... 

Yes, some VCs do have stipulations, but you should look back in to getting some VC funds, rewrite the site, then turn FA around by introducing services equivalent to those of DA and more. (hell your wife even apparently makes laser burned art, start there) ("Buy this submission on to a laser burned placard.")


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## Aremay (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> -Bibble-



I'm sorry, but you're busy off-shoring responsibility for the website onto other people. Ultimately, it is -your- website. It is incumbent upon -you- to make sure that you are tracking these agreements, especially on such huge projects as a top-to-bottom, inside-and-out re-write of the whole edifice. 

Then there's that you "can't remember" agreeing to this one moment, to being furious no-one kept in touch with you about it. Clearly you weren't furious over the last 3 months, because you apparently forgot all about it. I don't know about you, but I tend to have a very clear memory of things that anger me. If you forgot about it, then that explains why you failed to contact them; but it also puts you in a damning light with regards to your capacity to manage people and projects. If you were angry at the lack of contact, then it again puts you in a bad light because you just sat there, fumed and failed to act on this anger - then lied publicly by claiming you "forgot" about the project.

I'm sorry, but all the evidence presented herein casts you in a terrible light and Ben, Myr et al in a far better one. You need to seriously, seriously up your game.


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## benanderson (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Since you decided to post this... *deep breath*



He quite clearly told me that the other dude was one of his friends. If he's told you otherwise then whatever.

Myr tried to send emails and get you on Skype a few times with no reply but clearly that was not enough. He also couldn't send notes because it only really got off the ground when the massive blackout happened. There was miscommunications on BOTH sides. Myr should've tried to get more messages out there, and you should've went "oh hey, I granted that dude permission, I should ask him what is going on". The fact that you FORGOT is quite terrible! We're sticky notes not an option?

No, I do not think this development black hole is your fault, the fault is with Zaush because he lived up to his reputation of being insufferable - so much so that me and Myr just had to bail - we could not work with someone with his "holier than thou" attitude.

Yes, Zaush was asking questions, but only AFTER I said I wanted to try something other than HIS ideas. I didn't like his ideas, therefore I must've been dead in the head is the vibe I got from it. He was patronising, rude, condescending - yes I started getting shouty, but only because I was so disgusted by his attitude - at not one single point he said to me and Myr "I would like to hear your ideas" - NO, it was either his way or you're an idiot, end of story. Even when I asked legitimate questions (like "you do realise in plain english that those benchmarks are Bias to NodeJS, right?") he'd just skirt around the answer and just call me dumb for even bringing it into question in the first place! To backup what *nuggets2* was saying, he clearly doesn't know what the hell he was talking about when talking endlessly about architecture and choice of language, and what he did know sounded like it was from a textbook! It was always that one benchmark, it was always "PHP is the slowest thing around" even when I mentioned that websites such as Facebook and Media Wiki run on PHP and handle MILLIONS of requests he, again, skirted around those facts because HE wants NodeJS. When we asked him about maintainability and the ability to find programmers who could maintain the website over time, he skirted around those subjects as well because HE wanted NodeJS. He seemed to think that FA's 10,000 requests per second would be too much for other languages, and that NodeJS was the magic Elixir that would solve everything purely because it was ASync. Okay, great! I guess?

No, Dragoneer, I do not not to blame for the project nose diving - Zaush's horrid attitude is. He even brought his popufur status into it, calling me a nobody. How wonderful of him.

I know you said I was hypocritical for spitting bile about Zaush, but trust me 'Neer, I didn't have to do ANYTHING to get Bile about Zaush out there. Even the mention of his name made people on Tumblr and Twitter go "Why is he allowed near code, let alone people!?"

Whip him in Line, 'Neer - this is your website and he should be working under YOU, because right now he's running around claiming that this is HIS project and HIS baby.



Willow said:


> I can't reply to the while quote but Ben, I've no doubt he worked at British Airways. As an intern. Studying abroad in college.
> Which means he probably didn't really do anything extensive. And wasn't there for that long



If it was an Internship at BA then yeah, he wouldn't have gotten anything vast from it. Plus, it would've been soooo long ago! But here's the thing, BA was ALREADY on JSP! They moved to Linux from Sun Solaris in 2005 BECAUSE their ENTIRE operation was based on Java *AND HAS BEEN SINCE 1997.* At no point were they on PHP. So he lies without hesitation as well, well done for him.


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## Myr (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes, failure to communicate is on me. What Dragoneer is saying is accurate. We exchanged notes about this back in October. Then, as I've indicated, my plans and priorities changed after one of my vehicles became disabled and needed repair. I did not communicate that. There was no follow-up after the self-imposed deadline. I'm sorry to disappoint people, but commissions and friends have priority over *volunteer* projects. I have to have my house in order before I can build someone else's.

I had intended to come back to this rewriting business after MFF, and the downtime in December plus the work by BenAnderson really got things going again. No communication from me on this part. I do the bulk of my communication through AIM and Google. Not having communication paths through there really hurt things especially when notes were not sendable on FA. I never communicated what was going on the past 2 months, but no one else was following up weeks or months later either.

The spontaneous things going on here on the forums were rather hard to miss. People were coming together to show what they're good at and fit into the positions where they could actually contribute. Common ground was being found. There was give and take on technical details. We hijacked several threads and even more popped up to support. Then there was a pause for the holidays. Sure, I failed to communicate, but no one seemed to notice what was going on here either.

Zaush is right. I don't have enough motivation to work on this project. There is very little incentive for me. In fact, after reading yesterday's chats it's clear to me there's now a disincentive to work on this any more. I can't do a YCH auction and collect hundreds if not thousands of dollars from it, but I was willing to volunteer my years of education, experience, and specialization to build a platform for people who can and whom have zero regard for the people who could enable such a software platform to run flawlessly. I'm just a hobbyist artist with a small group of followers and an even smaller group of friends who was willing to offer up his free time, equipment, and expertise building enterprise systems.

I never personally attacked anyone. I was nearly completely quiet during yesterday's conversations other than to criticize the choice of platform before scarce volunteer skill sets were ever considered. To characterize this as some sort of 2 on 1 thing is wrong. Honestly, my apathy level has been skyrocketing. I'm not even sure why I'm posting this -- I don't need to explain myself to a bunch of people I don't even know.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

Closing this thread, and will take the issues to PM to discuss things further.


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## Nemo (Jan 2, 2014)

God I wish I could get angry about this.  I really wish I could.  I wish I could work up the outrage.

But a secret site redesign by someone with a reputation as bad as Zaush's, clashing up against another secret site redesign written by somebody who Dragoneer forgot about, is business as usual at Furaffinity Dot Com.


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