# Sampling in rap.



## Whitenoise (Jul 25, 2008)

Opinions?


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## TakeWalker (Jul 26, 2008)

A detestable practice. Not just rappers, either: Janet Jackson's done it, she's in no way a rapper. These artists are simply riding the coattails of other, better artists to sell records. I'll point to Kanye West's "Stronger" and be done. It's of course far worse when they sample a song that you've come to know and enjoy.


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## Defender (Jul 26, 2008)

You already know how I feel about this. I think it's like a photo collage and I don't see any problem with it as long as the end product is something that isn't total ass. I support intelligent hip hop no matter what the backing track is, whether it's a live band or samples. It's an entrenched genre staple and it's also a way to pay tribute to the artists that inspired many of these rappers.

I really don't know where this WELL THEY'RE JUST RIDING ON THE COATTAILS OF OTHERS BY USING POPULAR STUFF when the most sampled song of all time is "Funky Drummer" by James Brown which 95% of the population wouldn't recognize if it was stabbing them in the face. If they're just robbing popular artists then I dare you to pick up any non-pop hip hop record (A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Aesop Rock, Del the Funkee Homosapien, etc) and tell me where the samples are from on the spot. Many samples are from old school jazz, funk and soul, genres that have been forgotten by the majority, and were precursors to rap in content and feel.

This is coming from somebody who studied music theory and has played various instruments for over half a decade and enjoys stuff from more or less every genre of music, by the way. I just am up in arms protecting rap because people like to take big wet dumps on it all the time after hearing some popular song they didn't like that sampled Daft Punk or Aerosmith and got the wrong idea about all of hip hop.

P.S. Daft Punk approved of and loved Kanye West's "Stronger."


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## Whitenoise (Jul 26, 2008)

Defender said:


> I really don't know where this WELL THEY'RE JUST RIDING ON THE COATTAILS OF OTHERS BY USING POPULAR STUFF when the most sampled song of all time is "Funky Drummer" by James Brown which 95% of the population wouldn't recognize if it was stabbing them in the face. If they're just robbing popular artists then I dare you to pick up any non-pop hip hop record (A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Aesop Rock, Del the Funkee Homosapien, etc) and tell me where the samples are from on the spot. Many samples are from old school jazz, funk and soul, genres that have been forgotten by the majority, and were precursors to rap in content and feel.



I think the problem is that the pop hip hop seems to be doing the best so that's  what most people who aren't into the genre get exposed to, and there is a lot of  apparent coat tail riding on that front. That and the theft I mentioned in my  last post in the Bass, yay or nay thread are my main problem with sampling. I  hope I didn't come off as mean spirited or anything. Being a musician I have  some strong opinions about the music industry, really the whole idea of music as  a commercial commodity as opposed to a means of expression, and mainstream hip  hop is one of the worst offenders on that front in my eyes. So much of it is so  hedonistic and empty, not that other genres aren't, but in hip hop more than  anywhere else it really seems to be celebrated. Seeing songs I love being  butchered in the pursuit of easy money is the big frustration for me. The pile  of shit they turned Ozzy's "Crazy Train" into a few years back comes to mind.


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## Defender (Jul 26, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> I think the problem is that the pop hip hop seems to be doing the best so that's  what most people who aren't into the genre get exposed to, and there is a lot of  apparent coat tail riding on that front. That and the theft I mentioned in my  last post in the Bass, yay or nay thread are my main problem with sampling. I  hope I didn't come off as mean spirited or anything. Being a musician I have  some strong opinions about the music industry, really the whole idea of music as  a commercial commodity as opposed to a means of expression, and mainstream hip  hop is one of the worst offenders on that front in my eyes. So much of it is so  hedonistic and empty, not that other genres aren't, but in hip hop more than  anywhere else it really seems to be celebrated. Seeing songs I love being  butchered in the pursuit of easy money is the big frustration for me. The pile  of shit they turned Ozzy's "Crazy Train" into a few years back comes to mind.


Mainstream pop rap is really the scourge of the earth and absolutely criminal, but that's no excuse for people to go off on vendettas against hip hop as an entire genre because they didn't bother to dig into the cerebral stuff. :\
If all I heard of any rock was Linkin Park and Creed and I went around calling the entire genre crap then a lot of people would understandably be mad at me.
And sorry for flying off the handle about this stuff but there are only so many times you can have someone put down one of your favorite genres of music while they are admitting they only have heard the radio stuff before you just kind of start to get violently impatient.


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## Whitenoise (Jul 26, 2008)

Defender said:


> Mainstream pop rap is really the scourge of the earth and absolutely criminal, but that's no excuse for people to go off on vendettas against hip hop as an entire genre because they didn't bother to dig into the cerebral stuff. :\
> If all I heard of any rock was Linkin Park and Creed and I went around calling the entire genre crap then a lot of people would understandably be mad at me.
> And sorry for flying off the handle about this stuff but there are only so many times you can have someone put down one of your favorite genres of music while they are admitting they only have heard the radio stuff before you just kind of start to get violently impatient.



I really didn't mean to come off like I was putting you down =( . That first  post on the subject in the previous thread was a joke I never meant for it to  sound like an attack. My issue is with mainstream hip hop, while I'll never be  into the genre I won't attack anything I haven't experienced first hand, I  really didn't mean to come off that way. I'm actually excited to be talking  music with someone who is passionate about it and knows there shit, I don't want  to come off as condescending. I'm very sorry if I did.


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## Defender (Jul 26, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> I really didn't mean to come off like I was putting you down =( . That first  post on the subject in the previous thread was a joke I never meant for it to  sound like an attack. My issue is with mainstream hip hop, while I'll never be  into the genre I won't attack anything I haven't experienced first hand, I  really didn't mean to come off that way. I'm actually excited to be talking  music with someone who is passionate about it and knows there shit, I don't want  to come off as condescending. I'm very sorry if I did.


No worries, dude, no harm no foul <3
I knew it was a joke but I was feeling barbaric. Sorry to make a wall of fire at you and stuff.


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## Whitenoise (Jul 26, 2008)

Defender said:


> No worries, dude, no harm no foul <3
> I knew it was a joke but I was feeling barbaric. Sorry to make a wall of fire at you and stuff.



Oh no worries you didn't, I just get paranoid about coming off like a dick  seeing as I do it accidentally now and then.


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## Baddwill (Jul 26, 2008)

TakeWalker said:


> A detestable practice. Not just rappers, either: Janet Jackson's done it, she's in no way a rapper. These artists are simply riding the coattails of other, better artists to sell records. I'll point to Kanye West's "Stronger" and be done. It's of course far worse when they sample a song that you've come to know and enjoy.


 
That's true in the sense of just taking a loop, and putting drums over it.

But what about chopping the song up to little pieces and re-arranging it to a whole new thing? Like this:

The Escorts "I can't stand to see you cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCf75hvaCCk

J-Dilla "Don't Cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqTmsKX0D1U


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## Baddwill (Jul 26, 2008)

Defender said:


> You already know how I feel about this. I think it's like a photo collage and I don't see any problem with it as long as the end product is something that isn't total ass. I support intelligent hip hop no matter what the backing track is, whether it's a live band or samples. It's an entrenched genre staple and it's also a way to pay tribute to the artists that inspired many of these rappers.
> 
> I really don't know where this WELL THEY'RE JUST RIDING ON THE COATTAILS OF OTHERS BY USING POPULAR STUFF when the most sampled song of all time is "Funky Drummer" by James Brown which 95% of the population wouldn't recognize if it was stabbing them in the face. If they're just robbing popular artists then I dare you to pick up any non-pop hip hop record (A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Aesop Rock, Del the Funkee Homosapien, etc) and tell me where the samples are from on the spot. Many samples are from old school jazz, funk and soul, genres that have been forgotten by the majority, and were precursors to rap in content and feel.
> 
> ...


 
You know what's up


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## TakeWalker (Jul 26, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> I think the problem is that the pop hip hop seems to be doing the best so that's  what most people who aren't into the genre get exposed to, and there is a lot of  apparent coat tail riding on that front.



This.



> The pile  of shit they turned Ozzy's "Crazy Train" into a few years back comes to mind.



Oh, don't remind me. ;_; Kanye had nothing on these assholes.



Defender said:


> P.S. Daft Punk approved of and loved Kanye West's "Stronger."



Well, I didn't. 



Defender said:


> Mainstream pop rap is really the scourge of the earth and absolutely criminal, but that's no excuse for people to go off on vendettas against hip hop as an entire genre because they didn't bother to dig into the cerebral stuff. :\



Well, it's what I hear. I'm not interested in the genre, and the mainstream stuff does not kindle in me a desire to dig into the more cerebral, less well-known artists. Besides, this isn't a diatribe against an entire genre, but against sampling. Why can't these artists come up with their own music? If all you need is a few beats to throw some lyrics onto, it can't be that hard.


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## Whitenoise (Jul 26, 2008)

TakeWalker said:


> Why can't these artists come up with their own music? If all you need is a few beats to throw some lyrics onto, it can't be that hard.



Well Defender explained the origins of this practise in the Bass, yay or nay  thread and that makes sense to me, but mainstream rappers aren't poor and lack  the integrity of the genre's roots so not really justified there in my eyes.  Also you're right, the style of composition I've generally seen in mainstream  hip hop is very easy. Make a few compatible melodies and then mix and match  overtop of a bass line, or else the standard rock verse chorus structure. This  can be said of basically all mainstream music though, as these produce the  catchiest music =P .


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## Defender (Jul 26, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> Well Defender explained the origins of this practise in the Bass, yay or nay  thread and that makes sense to me, but mainstream rappers aren't poor and lack  the integrity of the genre's roots so not really justified there in my eyes.  Also you're right, the style of composition I've generally seen in mainstream  hip hop is very easy. Make a few compatible melodies and then mix and match  overtop of a bass line, or else the standard rock verse chorus structure. This  can be said of basically all mainstream music though, as these produce the  catchiest music =P .


I just like to pretend the hip hop on the radio doesn't even exist. I just realized that a lot of horrible crunk rap is a drum machine with a lot of really awful synths, so I guess that's an example of a rapper making their own tunes and failing hardcore.


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## Baddwill (Jul 26, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> Opinions?


 
My opinion is that it is an artform, It's something that I do almost daily, sample old records, use parts of a song, or even various songs, and combine them to make something new.

But when the xerox a beat from another hit song, that's when it sucks and it involves no creativity.


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Jul 26, 2008)

Rap is not music. It has no guitars! And solider boy!


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 26, 2008)

Kitstaa (S.L.A.B) said:


> Rap is not music. It has no guitars! And solider boy!



Music is no Rap. Guitars!! And it has no solider boy


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## PunkFurry (Jul 28, 2008)

Baddwill said:


> My opinion is that it is an artform, It's something that I do almost daily, sample old records, use parts of a song, or even various songs, and combine them to make something new.
> 
> But when the xerox a beat from another hit song, that's when it sucks and it involves no creativity.



I'm gonna have to disagree, i feel that art is something that flows from the inside to create something new, not Frankenstein pieces of original art to create your own. No offense on my part, i just feel that what you do isn't exactely art. And it's not because i feel that it's not creating something new, i just think that it's not something that flows from inside. I mean...something that flows from inside (hate to sound elitist) is something that you've worked for, something that has giving you experience through hours of practice. I can throw any old few songs together, and pull them apart in pro-tools and sew them together again, but to know the mechanics of a drumset, and really love your set, and repair it and practice and practice and practice...that's true art.


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## Hackfox (Jul 28, 2008)

Rap is good to me (probably cause of where I live) and I do hate soulja boy he can eat a dick but listen to this song...

One of my faves
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOlAerP0L74*

AND THIS YOU GOTTA LISTEN TOO my friend who only likes rock loves it.
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-rB6Wgb044*


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## Defender (Jul 28, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> I'm gonna have to disagree, i feel that art is something that flows from the inside to create something new, not Frankenstein pieces of original art to create your own. No offense on my part, i just feel that what you do isn't exactely art. And it's not because i feel that it's not creating something new, i just think that it's not something that flows from inside. I mean...something that flows from inside (hate to sound elitist) is something that you've worked for, something that has giving you experience through hours of practice. I can throw any old few songs together, and pull them apart in pro-tools and sew them together again, but to know the mechanics of a drumset, and really love your set, and repair it and practice and practice and practice...that's true art.


Yeah, but they didn't even have ProTools until 1989, and most DJs mix music on turntables anyway, which isn't exactly some kind of simple and easy little thing.


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## kurreltheraven (Jul 29, 2008)

Yay a sampling discussion!

To me, sampling is the same practice as DJing, except on a much finer level. Some DJs will spin shite because they have no ear, and some have a repertoire of completely fresh material that gets you dancing and feeling good. By analogy, some producers will feed any old dross into their samplers and do nothing with it, and at the other end of the scale other better producers will take material and do something interesting and fresh with it.

So yeah, Kanye West stole the Daft Punk tune, but Daft Punk lifted the groove of "Better Harder Faster Stronger Tighter Buffer Frencher" from Edwin Birdsong's "Cola Bottle Baby" and chucked some robot voices over it. All they did was find and recontextualise that sample. Daft Punk are that brilliant at digging up old grooves, and no doubt if they could play instruments that's exactly the sound they'd be going for anyway.

Like all musical endeavours once you remove any physical talent with playing instruments from it, it's all about the ideas you put into your music through your own sensibilities. Every musician is borrowing or outright stealing their material, whether they lift it wholesale from actual recordings by other people, do cover versions of songs by other people, take production cues from albums recorded by other people (common practice when mastering), twist licks and chords they heard other people play into new shapes, read the theoretical discussions of other musicians and incorporate that into their own styles... it's a more blatant melting pot to the general public than before, but it's an old idea that's just more obvious with the way technology's gone.

It's not a question of originality for me - it's whether something's fresh, effective and just good, and that's entirely subjective.


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## Defender (Jul 29, 2008)

kurreltheraven said:


> A great and educated speech.


<3


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## Baddwill (Jul 29, 2008)

kurreltheraven said:


> Yay a sampling discussion!
> 
> To me, sampling is the same practice as DJing, except on a much finer level. Some DJs will spin shite because they have no ear, and some have a repertoire of completely fresh material that gets you dancing and feeling good. By analogy, some producers will feed any old dross into their samplers and do nothing with it, and at the other end of the scale other better producers will take material and do something interesting and fresh with it.
> 
> ...


 
 Awesome...just awesome... That's how I feel about it


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## nobuyuki (Jul 29, 2008)

I only skimmed this thread, so hopefully I won't be redundant, but let me give a few musings over why I really hate today's rap music (and why in hindsight I seem to appreciate the oldschool stuff more) when it comes to sampling:

Most people today don't understand the difference between 'good' sampling and 'bad' sampling, and the industry has gone a long way to nurture this ignorance.  It's the audible equivalent of tracing vs. referencing.  Good sampling creates a collage, like another poster said, from a small loop or riff of material -- often times, a good artist will add lots of original parts to it, or do something even more unique like changing the chord structure to his tune which the original sample didn't intend.  Often times, multiple sample sources are used in order to create an entirely new song.

Bad sampling, on the other hand, is what you hear mostly nowadays with producers like Timbaland.  In the aforementioned example, Daft Punk created a (somewhat) original piece from clips sampled from Edwin Birdsong, whereas Kayne West's producers sampled Daft Punk's vocoders and none of the original Birdsong tune.  I give them both a bit of credit for making something slightly original (and props to Kanye for including daft punk in the video).  However, it's one step away from what has to be an endemic of rap/r&b/hip-hop producers simply stealing entire songs thinking the original artist wouldn't notice, throwing compressed drum loops over the top, and having today's hot artists sing or rap over the top of it.  Geeks started catching onto it after Timbaland stole music from a popular demoscene artist without so much as crediting him or the original artist seeing a red cent.  Later it was discovered that he, and many other popular industry producers were stealing music left and right from artists in the middle east where legal recourse isn't so good for the artists.

The problem with the whole fiasco is that kids with these awful role models now want to believe they did nothing wrong, and now we have a whole new generation of people who don't understand what it means to be original.  This sorta thing is more accepted, even if it's ethically dubious, and maybe that's why I think most of the music in the genre has gone downhill.  That's my 2 cents over sampling in rap.


Edit:  By the way, I don't think any of this stuff would have been so bad if proper credit and payment due was given to the artists who deserved it.  If this had been the case over the past 15 years, we'd have a whole lot more people seeking out original music and broadening their horizons.  Instead, excellent music from small artists is treated by heavy samplers and DJ's like it's some sort of hidden treasure, and they greedily try to obfuscate their sources in order to take as much credit as they can get for finding them and putting their own name on it.  That doesn't just apply to rap, it also applies to all the club scrubs who use "white labels" too, to avoid disclosing where they got their music from so that other DJ's don't steal it, or that music aficionados have to go through their DJ as their effective "dealer" for the tunes they seek.


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## PunkFurry (Jul 30, 2008)

kurreltheraven said:


> Like all musical endeavours once you remove any physical talent with playing instruments from it, it's all about the ideas you put into your music through your own sensibilities. Every musician is borrowing or outright stealing their material, whether they lift it wholesale from actual recordings by other people, do cover versions of songs by other people, take production cues from albums recorded by other people (common practice when mastering), twist licks and chords they heard other people play into new shapes, read the theoretical discussions of other musicians and incorporate that into their own styles... it's a more blatant melting pot to the general public than before, but it's an old idea that's just more obvious with the way technology's gone.
> 
> It's not a question of originality for me - it's whether something's fresh, effective and just good, and that's entirely subjective.



I have to disagree with you. I've been sitting on the cutting edge of drumming for a while. Yes, there's still a cutting edge, as we all saw when Johnny Raab started playing full Jungle/D&B grooves on an acoustic kit with only a set of sticks and a hand cymbal. (which is insane) I'm in an argument with a bunch of my drumming friends in which we disagree on weather a five-stroke roll into a flam is even a tangible idea in drumming, or just a muddled six-stroke. And those of us who agree that it is a tangible thing, still disagree if the roll is linked to the actual note, or to the grace note. Something as simple as that is being disagreed over. So, no, we still have our own ideas in drumming. The idea behind actual art is that your not only taking from the old, but adding a new idea and part to it, instead of just mixing together two different ideas.

I also take offense to the idea that you can create art with a machine (not referencing the quote, just a personal qualm) Art itself is not an idea. Art, is the physical expression of an idea. And when you put that idea through a machine, while it is still an idea, I find that it looses the heart behind the idea and it becomes what the machine dictates. Now, I can say that there are some DJs out there that spin some amazing mixes, but that is about 10% out of the entirety of DJing. Every drummer is an artist, because every drummer has his own style, his own take on grooves, no matter what the skill level. 

10% of pogo-stick enthusiasts can pogo so good that it seems like an art form. They may be artists, but saying that hopping on a pogo-stick is art is completely missing the entire idea of what art is.

Of course, reality is subjective, so I leave it to you.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/johnnyrabb1.html  (my favorite is vid 4)


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## kurreltheraven (Jul 30, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> I'm in an argument with a bunch of my drumming friends in which we disagree on weather a five-stroke roll into a flam is even a tangible idea in drumming, or just a muddled six-stroke. And those of us who agree that it is a tangible thing, still disagree if the roll is linked to the actual note, or to the grace note. Something as simple as that is being disagreed over. So, no, we still have our own ideas in drumming.



I can see we are from very different worlds, and moreover that it's futile for a nerd like me to try to convince a luddite like you of anything.


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## kurreltheraven (Jul 30, 2008)

nobuyuki said:


> I only skimmed this thread, so hopefully I won't be redundant, but let me give a few musings over why I really hate today's rap music (and why in hindsight I seem to appreciate the oldschool stuff more) when it comes to sampling



Aw. You didn't say anything about how the predominant use for rapping has gone down the gangsta toilet. I hope one day we can look back and consider this guns-bitches-and-bling stuff its own distinct genre of oozing arse instead of as just 'rap'.

But yeah, compare the Bomb Squad's work on classic Public Enemy to the sort of stuff that's around now.. huge difference. (Also Chuck D's voice could bring down buildings.) But ages back it was much easier (and cheaper!) to sample. People didn't consider it a revenue stream the way they do now; it was still a novel enough recontextualisation when done right that it delighted people to hear old chunks of music in new settings which enhanced it. Then they realised "hey, we're rights holders! a) we can get a piece of the action too! or b) wahh we're being ripped off SUE SUE SUE" and that ended the free-for-all. Aw.


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## kurreltheraven (Jul 30, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> I can throw any old few songs together, and pull them apart in pro-tools and sew them together again



The same as i can take a bunch of skin-lined wooden buckets and bits of metal and beat the arse out of them to a rhythm. (Actually, i can't.)

(Actually, i could but i shouldn't.)



PunkFurry said:


> but to know the mechanics of a drumset, and really love your set, and repair it and practice and practice and practice...that's true art.



Just like knowing the ins-and-outs of a well-stocked production rig (monitoring, software, hardware, etc) requires dedication to master and maintain.

I think when you say art you really mean passion.


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## Defender (Jul 30, 2008)

kurreltheraven said:


> But yeah, compare the Bomb Squad's work on classic Public Enemy to the sort of stuff that's around now.. huge difference. (Also Chuck D's voice could bring down buildings.)


Chuck D has one of the very best voices of any MC I've ever heard. So intense that he needs Flavor Flav for comic relief so we don't _die_.


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## Baddwill (Jul 30, 2008)

Defender said:


> Chuck D has one of the very best voices of any MC I've ever heard. So intense that he needs Flavor Flav for comic relief so we don't _die_.


 
Hell yeah!! His voice has been sampled by so many artists! All the way from New Jack swing songs to J-Pop (Listen to the ending of Bleach "happy People" song)

I think it's  Chuck D saying come on in the scathc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brc9GTBPtWY


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## Baddwill (Jul 30, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> I have to disagree with you. I've been sitting on the cutting edge of drumming for a while. Yes, there's still a cutting edge, as we all saw when Johnny Raab started playing full Jungle/D&B grooves on an acoustic kit with only a set of sticks and a hand cymbal. (which is insane) I'm in an argument with a bunch of my drumming friends in which we disagree on weather a five-stroke roll into a flam is even a tangible idea in drumming, or just a muddled six-stroke. And those of us who agree that it is a tangible thing, still disagree if the roll is linked to the actual note, or to the grace note. Something as simple as that is being disagreed over. So, no, we still have our own ideas in drumming. The idea behind actual art is that your not only taking from the old, but adding a new idea and part to it, instead of just mixing together two different ideas.
> 
> I also take offense to the idea that you can create art with a machine (not referencing the quote, just a personal qualm) Art itself is not an idea. Art, is the physical expression of an idea. And when you put that idea through a machine, while it is still an idea, I find that it looses the heart behind the idea and it becomes what the machine dictates. Now, I can say that there are some DJs out there that spin some amazing mixes, but that is about 10% out of the entirety of DJing. Every drummer is an artist, because every drummer has his own style, his own take on grooves, no matter what the skill level.
> 
> ...


 
Every Beat maker is not an artist? Every Beat maker doesn't have his own style of sampling, drum sounds, transitions?

How does the machine dictate what an Idea becomes? Have you spent any time behind a sampler?

Why do you have a problem with a machine being considered an instrument? Because it's not acoustic? Why?

I feel that this type of thinking put's rules in music, I think it's better without rules, Because there are none, But so long as the music sounds good is what is important in the end no matter how it's made or what is used to make it.

You can switch the pogo stick with drumming too, I think drumming is kick-ass so don't get me wrong it's something I wanna learn too.


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## nobuyuki (Jul 30, 2008)

kurreltheraven said:


> Aw. You didn't say anything about how the predominant use for rapping has gone down the gangsta toilet. I hope one day we can look back and consider this guns-bitches-and-bling stuff its own distinct genre of oozing arse instead of as just 'rap'.
> 
> But yeah, compare the Bomb Squad's work on classic Public Enemy to the sort of stuff that's around now.. huge difference. (Also Chuck D's voice could bring down buildings.) But ages back it was much easier (and cheaper!) to sample. People didn't consider it a revenue stream the way they do now; it was still a novel enough recontextualisation when done right that it delighted people to hear old chunks of music in new settings which enhanced it. Then they realised "hey, we're rights holders! a) we can get a piece of the action too! or b) wahh we're being ripped off SUE SUE SUE" and that ended the free-for-all. Aw.



I would have mentioned that, and I actually did start writing a paragraph on it, but I thought it was off-topic.  Let's not get into today's cheap gangsta bling and the drum and bass machines which provide the backdrop for it 8)
The bravado of it sickens me...


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## Whitenoise (Jul 30, 2008)

kurreltheraven said:


> But ages back it was much easier (and cheaper!) to sample. People didn't consider it a revenue stream the way they do now; it was still a novel enough recontextualisation when done right that it delighted people to hear old chunks of music in new settings which enhanced it. Then they realised "hey, we're rights holders! a) we can get a piece of the action too! or b) wahh we're being ripped off SUE SUE SUE" and that ended the free-for-all. Aw.



I think it's a perfectly understandable reaction, if I found out I'd been  sampled without my permission and someone else was profiting off of my work I'd  be pretty pissed as well. This kind of bullshit would stop pretty quickly if  100% of the revenue from a song comprised of unethical sampling had to be given  to the person who's music was sampled.


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## PunkFurry (Jul 30, 2008)

Baddwill said:


> Every Beat maker is not an artist? Every Beat maker doesn't have his own style of sampling, drum sounds, transitions?
> 
> How does the machine dictate what an Idea becomes? Have you spent any time behind a sampler?
> 
> ...



I understand the idea that music is there for the listener, and I'm happy that people listen to machine made beats if it's what they like. But to me, it's not art.

And yes, because it's not acoustic. But not for the reason you think...I have Reason on my desktop right now, and i use it to lay out ideas for songs, so i understand how to use electronics and I've spent time behind it. The difference is that when you use a beat maker, you have no quality behind it, no feeling. It's all pre-dictated in a soundstage somewhere. When you hit a drum, there are sooo many variables to the sound and the way you hit it and the angle of the stick on the drum, and the time you let the tip strike the drum. And that happens with every beat, every hit, and you create that sound, every time. Here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk

This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.

And what amazes me is the fact that i see kids who have no musical prowess can pick up the electronics and read a manual and all of a sudden be expert "musicians", that's whats getting me over the whole thing. Does that mean that Britney Spears is an amazing singer because she can fix her voice with computers? Or does that mean that a guitar solo by dragonforce, who can't play their own solos on stage, is better than something played by someone like Frank Zappa?

And how can you use the pogo sticks for drums?


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## Baddwill (Jul 30, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> I understand the idea that music is there for the listener, and I'm happy that people listen to machine made beats if it's what they like. But to me, it's not art.
> 
> And yes, because it's not acoustic. But not for the reason you think...I have Reason on my desktop right now, and i use it to lay out ideas for songs, so i understand how to use electronics and I've spent time behind it. The difference is that when you use a beat maker, you have no quality behind it, no feeling. It's all pre-dictated in a soundstage somewhere. When you hit a drum, there are sooo many variables to the sound and the way you hit it and the angle of the stick on the drum, and the time you let the tip strike the drum. And that happens with every beat, every hit, and you create that sound, every time. Here...
> 
> ...


 
I meant that if people hit a drum well enough, that they start saying that it's an art, I meant to interchange pogo with drumming in what you said.

But it's all a matter of what person think, and everyone should have that right.

But I see where your coming from, the fact that anyone can make something on a program or a machine and start calling themselves musicians right?

Sort of like they are not putting in the work, skipping steps, I agree on that with you

But, I see the drum machine as a new instrument, I mean new, You gotta see the kind of stuff people make with them. It's kind of hard to explain it to people, it's like you gotta be into it

J-DILLA IS AWESOME!!!!!! I wish he didn't die


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## PunkFurry (Jul 30, 2008)

"If people start hitting a drum well enough, they start calling it an art" Yes, it is. Why do you think John Mayer has such good beats, even though his drum set player is playing such a simple beat. This is what I'm saying. The feeling behind it can never ever be recreated by a machine, unless they sample from it, and even then they can't change the feeling to a new feeling and make it's own feeling.

There's actually a new phenomenon going on in studio musicianship, actually. (on a side note) There are people who want an acoustic drummer to play a machine sound. To play it, it's completely ridiculous, your entire perspective of feeling and time has to change, your rudimentary grip has to be changed to allow for no bounce back. But you can change your feeling to that, and put your own spin on it. (as Johny Raab did)

I've seen stuff people make music with a drum machine, and I've seen the very few good ones. I made a whole song with it that sounded great as an architype for a song in which i play. I guess the difference here is the POV we have on the feeling behind music. I feel that feeling behind the music is important. Some people believe that the feeling doesn't really matter. I find techno and rap so very sterile. When they loop and create beats from old, feeling-fulled beats, i find as though all the original feeling is pulled out of it, and it feels so quantized so that people can rap over it. I don't understand that practice, it's like taking the smile off the Mona Lisa and replacing it with a straight line.

To me, feeling is the most important thing. It's what makes and breaks a drummer. It's why when you try to comp a song, even if it's something as easy as AC/DC, it's hard to do what the artist is actually doing. Can you really play a beat by Lars Ulrich back in his Hay Days and look me in the eye and say that you got just as big a sound as he did, or that you can get the same flow as the Purdy shuffle? I've been drumming over half of my life and I still can't say that I've mastered Bonham. I can play Bonham, I can comp Bonham, I can improve upon Bonham, but I can't master him.


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## Baddwill (Jul 30, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> "If people start hitting a drum well enough, they start calling it an art" Yes, it is. Why do you think John Mayer has such good beats, even though his drum set player is playing such a simple beat. This is what I'm saying. The feeling behind it can never ever be recreated by a machine, unless they sample from it, and even then they can't change the feeling to a new feeling and make it's own feeling.
> 
> There's actually a new phenomenon going on in studio musicianship, actually. (on a side note) There are people who want an acoustic drummer to play a machine sound. To play it, it's completely ridiculous, your entire perspective of feeling and time has to change, your rudimentary grip has to be changed to allow for no bounce back. But you can change your feeling to that, and put your own spin on it. (as Johny Raab did)
> 
> ...


 
I only take offense to how it sounds like your saying that there's no feeling behind it, of course it's not gonna be the same feeling a drum or guitar or any other acoustic instrument will give you


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## PunkFurry (Jul 30, 2008)

But what feeling -does- it have?


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## Baddwill (Aug 1, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> But what feeling -does- it have?


 
Soul, that's the way I describe it in one word, When the beat starts coming together it's so exciting and it get's you moving, You can feel the sample, basslines, drums, the energy of the beat.

It can start all the way to the beginning of the process, I get excited and feel great when I'm in a record shop, man it's heaven to me, So much music that I haven't heard yet, that I can find, and when I preview something at the shop, I can feel the beat I'm gonna make, I put it together in my head way before I even get to the MPC 2000XL Drum machine.

I don't know if that explains it, or makes sense to you, but that's me. And you have your own process too you know?

But you're right that it's point of view. If I started on an acoustic instrument first, I would feel differently about it. But this came first.

And it really shouldn't matter what the world/society thinks, It's about finding your own talent and sticking with it, If it makes you happy, nothing or nobody should ruin it for you

It's been nice having this conversation with you by the way no joke.


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## Monarq (Aug 1, 2008)

That stupid song SOS is a total rip off of Soft Cell's Tainted Love.


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## Baddwill (Aug 1, 2008)

Monarq said:


> That stupid song SOS is a total rip off of Soft Cell's Tainted Love.


 
Yup, That's an example of uncreative sampling.

yet that Soft Cell song is a cover of Gloria Jones, have you heard it?


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## PunkFurry (Aug 1, 2008)

Baddwill said:


> It's been nice having this conversation with you by the way no joke.



Lol, while I feel differently, I agree with this whole-heartedly


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## kurreltheraven (Aug 2, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> Here...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk
> 
> This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.



Actually i sat there thinking it was a technically brilliant drum performance, but as a non-drummer it bores me. It's so technical and precise that it leaves no room for anything from the performer that registers on an emotional scale.


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## Defender (Aug 3, 2008)

PunkFurry said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk
> 
> This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.


What's funny is, those drums sound so strange pitch-wise and are being played so robotically that they sound like they were sequenced on a computer to me.


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## Baddwill (Aug 4, 2008)

Defender said:


> What's funny is, those drums sound so strange pitch-wise and are being played so robotically that they sound like they were sequenced on a computer to me.


 
The fact that he can call that art, but not the process of an amazing beat made from samples on a drum machine is what doesn't make sense to me


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 10, 2009)

Really pisses me off when nobody knows the song that was sampled, which is ALWAYS more substantial and far more intelligent.


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## SnowFox (Aug 10, 2009)

08-04-2008, 05:41 AM 

lol


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## Renard_v (Aug 21, 2009)

I'll just kind of bump in, because I do a lot of heavy sampling.

To me, sampling is partially a collage work, but moreso for me, taking something that means a lot to me, and incorporating it into something new that I can enjoy (and hopefully others in the process). Sampling has always been interesting in the hardcore dance scene, because it's something that gets people excited; I love hearing familiar melodies and vocal tracks that I grew up listening to in new environments.

Another part of sampling, for me, is finding a resource that not only counters what I'm currently doing, but also blends with it fairly seamlessly. I've trashed whole projects because I couldn't find "that perfect vocal track" or other resource. Part of it is also being witty with said samples; introducing parody through use of samples is something that I've always enjoyed doing.

Things like that. It's all good fun. :]


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## TDK (Aug 21, 2009)

Sampling is in the same vein as rock band covers or techno remixes. But the recklessness of it now a days is ridiculous, they're not bringing nothing new to the table nor giving props to the original sound, just straight up stealing. Should charge these fuckers with Grand Theft Beats.


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## TheComet (Aug 22, 2009)

I can deal with sampling in rap...a little....but as soon as I hear it in mainstream songs that everyone goes on about as "DA BWEST SONG EVAR" I feel like kicking a baby's face in, because it means minimal effort with a massive paycheck :/

I guess it's my vendetta against the mainstream partially too....RIP Music Circa 1996 :/


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## protocollie (Aug 31, 2009)

It's all in execution. That's it. There's as much artistry to DJing or production electronically as there is to anything else. It's hard to sit on the outside of music production from an electronic perspective and say 'oh, yeah. that's real music' when you're wrapped up in playing drums or guitar or whatever. I feel a serious difference between what I feel when I play and when I sit down to produce, as well.

But like anything at all artistic, it's a matter of execution. Someone here said all drummers are artists. Bullshit they are. I guarantee you 95% of drummers are total hacks with no inspiration, no real drive or artistic focus and who certainly bring nothing worthwhile to the table. Think about it - pretty much every song you ever hear has a drummer in it - how many of them do you actually know and respect? It's a smaller number than the whole population. That's why good drummers are a valued commodity. Because most of them suck ass. If all drummers were good, being a good drummer wouldn't be remarkable.

Same thing goes for sampling. Some artists are badass at it and really tear up and create something new. A sampler's an instrument like anything else, and you can either use it to make contrived, boring crap, or things that people want to hear. 

I know that I'm going to get torn apart for saying this but essentially you're doing the equivalent of getting angry because someone incorporated the same kind of flower into a painting that another artist did. You'll spot a hack artist because you'll be like, 'hey, what the fuck. this is the same as that other guy i really like.' The real artist is the one who puts their own spin on it.

My guess is you've just not heard good sampling. Check out Aesop Rock.

It's all in how you use it.

And as a final though: Done with only a sample of a trumpet :] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiSFxDJQU48


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## TDK (Aug 31, 2009)

protocollie said:


> It's all in execution. That's it. There's as much artistry to DJing or production electronically as there is to anything else. It's hard to sit on the outside of music production from an electronic perspective and say 'oh, yeah. that's real music' when you're wrapped up in playing drums or guitar or whatever. I feel a serious difference between what I feel when I play and when I sit down to produce, as well.
> 
> But like anything at all artistic, it's a matter of execution. Someone here said all drummers are artists. Bullshit they are. I guarantee you 95% of drummers are total hacks with no inspiration, no real drive or artistic focus and who certainly bring nothing worthwhile to the table. Think about it - pretty much every song you ever hear has a drummer in it - how many of them do you actually know and respect? It's a smaller number than the whole population. That's why good drummers are a valued commodity. Because most of them suck ass. If all drummers were good, being a good drummer wouldn't be remarkable.
> 
> ...



This +1

Aesop and Def Jux FTW, None Shall Pass was one of the best hip-hop albulms I ever heard. 

If you want a far out sampling example, check out Nas' "I Can" which samples (very damn well I might add) Beethoven's "Fur Elise": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lAciVyxl5g


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## Excitement! (Sep 4, 2009)

The concept that sampling can not, under any circumstances, be art is a woefully outdated opinion. Endtroducing... came out. Critical Beatdown happened. Paul's Boutique exists. We're long past the stage of "someday, this could be art." It already is, and denying it is pretty damn disrespectful to popular music and it's longass history of what might as well be sampling. Rock music's full of it; just take Led Zeppelin. The Lemon Song took cues from Killing Floor, Whole Lotta Love lifted lyrics from a Willie Dixon track, When The Levee Breaks was a cover of an old blues tune. And least we bring up blues, an entire genre based around I-IV-V.

And I'll give the same line I give to people who think that any given aspect of music is easy, and therefore not art (famous examples being rapping, death growls, and of course, DJing and producing): don't knock it till you try it. And you can, if you want. Just take the easiest method to get into sample-based production now: go download the trial for, say, Ableton Live 8 and see how long it takes you produce something listenable, much less something on the level of Madlib or Kid606. I speak from experience when I saw that that shit ain't easy.


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