# Call for Coders/Helpers for Ferrox Project



## Damaratus (Sep 10, 2007)

Attention users of Fur Affinity!

There is much work being done on The Ferrox Project, and I suppose you're wondering what exactly it is.  Ferrox is a project designed to revamp Fur Affinity, integrating ideas provided by both the community and the current staff.  It is meant to be a new and improved face for Fur Affinity, but it involves a good deal of coding as well as additional support.

As of this point, some work is done but we're looking to pick up the pace.  As of this point you may have noticed that there have been two new coders added to the staff: Verix and Eevee.  Please give them a welcome to the crew.

But wait! That's not the only purpose of this announcement, which you can clearly gather from the title.

We are looking for more folks to help out with the production and eventual release of Ferrox.

We are looking for all types of people: coders, PR, Q&A, beta testers, etc.

If you would like to give some time to FA and help out with the new project, send a note or PM over to crypto expressing your desire to be part of the team as well as listing what you would like to do, and the skills you can bring to the table; even minimal experience is fine.

Bear in mind that not everyone who applies will be brought on, but this is a great opportunity to help out the advancement of the site.


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## uncia (Sep 10, 2007)

(_*nudges the malformed URL on the front news page back into line*_ There... ^^ )

Cool! Better late than never for the announcement...
Thanks & Best wishes to all who've picked up the can or are interested to do so.


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## net-cat (Sep 10, 2007)

Heh. Already sent.


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## kamunt (Sep 10, 2007)

Sending now!  Doubt my minimal code monkey skills will be of any use, but I would still love to help further this site in any way possible.


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## Stratelier (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm no code monkey either, I just know the basics of a few languages.  Enough to do a few tasks here or there.


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## kayedarktail (Sep 11, 2007)

I'd love to be able to help.  Sent my very small resumÃ©. :


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## FoxBoom (Sep 11, 2007)

i woudl love to help anyway i can

im not great at coding but i have plenty of suggestions, im good at finding bugs, i dont think you guys need an animation thing, but i can easily do that to... oh and id be more than happy to beta test 

you know how to get ahold of me :3


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## Jurann (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm still here, willing and able to help out with both coding and QA work. I'd at least like to do some QA/beta-test stuff and help get some of that ironed-out. I don't know the status of the FurBuy integration, but I could help oversee that goes smoothly in a very direct way since I'm the software admin and lead coder on FurBuy.


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 11, 2007)

I would love to help as well to help further the site, and be useful and seen for once *l* I know some basic coding a few extras and maye could help with ideas and whatnot...though I'm still lost on what this Ferrox Project is @.@


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## LT_Max_W_Charger (Sep 11, 2007)

I'd most likely be useless.. i dont know code skills and shit like that.. and i donno bout being online to help cus my comp is a little loopy.. but what do you think a dumbass like me could do LOL


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## Damaratus (Sep 11, 2007)

Draken_The_Dragon said:
			
		

> I would love to help as well to help further the site, and be useful and seen for once *l* I know some basic coding a few extras and maye could help with ideas and whatnot...though I'm still lost on what this Ferrox Project is @.@



The Ferrox Project is basically a new face (and code) for Fur Affinity.  It will be integrating a vast number of suggestions from the user base as well as ideas from the current staff.

It is a rather large endeavor, but the end result should be something positive for the community as a whole.


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## Nightintodream (Sep 11, 2007)

i would love to help bata test but tell me what is Ferrox


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 11, 2007)

Nightintodream said:
			
		

> i would love to help bata test but tell me what is Ferrox





			
				Damaratus said:
			
		

> Draken_The_Dragon said:
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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 11, 2007)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> Draken_The_Dragon said:
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Ahh! I see now..like a make over LOL. kool..Yea I would love to help with the new look and what now. I've actualyl designed a few medioaker(sp) sites and splash pages my self for rp sites.


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## crabby_the_frog (Sep 11, 2007)

Sounds good.


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## Griff-the-DevilDog (Sep 12, 2007)

sent it! 

 i am only good at simple stuff though, not coding ^^;


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## FoxBoom (Sep 12, 2007)

*nods* i know fa's history, and im willing to help i got one idea that i woudl really like to see pursued but .. uhm i will talk to you in private bout that



			
				Damaratus said:
			
		

> Draken_The_Dragon said:
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## Rhainor (Sep 12, 2007)

I sent an "application" or whatever you want to call it the other day.  Haven't heard anything back yet.


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## creaturecorp (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm experienced at coding PHP, mySQL, html, flash, etc. but I volunteered before to no avail.


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## net-cat (Sep 12, 2007)

Last I checked, Ferrox is being done in Python, using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.

(This may have changed since the last time I checked, which was before they +k'd #furaffinity-dev. But I'd be surprised.)


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## Issarlk (Sep 12, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Last I checked, Ferrox is being done in Python, using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
> 
> (This may have changed since the last time I checked, which was before they +k'd #furaffinity-dev. But I'd be surprised.)



oh goddess yes, anything but PHP.  I could have helped had it been rewritten in Ruby instead, but I'm still glad it's python.


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## FennecWolfox (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm useless at programming right now (I'm taking college in that, though), but I'd love to beta-test for FA. :3


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## thecrypto (Sep 12, 2007)

Thank you for all of the responses. I am currently inundated by just the vast number of people who have responded.

Just to add a couple of notes, net-cat is right and we are using Pylons and SQLAlchemy for the new version. Any sort of Python experience will be looked upon much higher than anything else. 

I'm going to wait a few more days before responding to everyone so I can just respond to everyone in one long fell swoop so please don't mind if you don't get a response. All of them have been received and will be processed in order.


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## Vitae (Sep 13, 2007)

I'd love to continue PR work as I had done with the original FA.


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## Wolfboy5692 (Sep 13, 2007)

if this hasn't been stated already do you think you could try to get rid of the double posting thing that furaffinity has a problem with.

but its in really good shape anyway ^_^


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## Rhainor (Sep 14, 2007)

Wolfboy5692 said:
			
		

> if this hasn't been stated already do you think you could try to get rid of the double posting thing that furaffinity has a problem with.
> 
> but its in really good shape anyway ^_^



Firstly, I'm not aware of any double-posting problem.  Second, this is not the thread for bug reports.


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## Wolfboy5692 (Sep 14, 2007)

oh... i'm sorry 
but the message does say that they intend to fix problems and hire some staff and i was just stating that on FA there is some double posting problems for those who have slower connections


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## Rianu (Sep 14, 2007)

What skills do you require for Q&A / beta testing?
I'd really like to help ^^


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## creaturecorp (Sep 14, 2007)

Why would you use Python and not something more widespread like PHP and mySQL that people have more experience with and there is more support for? It's not going to make it much less hackable, so I do not see the merit in it. It seems to be elitist "haha I can code Python and you can only code PHP" crap.


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## Razor Blitz (Sep 14, 2007)

I'd probably be best as a Beta Tester, that is if the coding and all is past behind us and whatnot, eh?


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## Rhainor (Sep 15, 2007)

Wolfboy5692 said:
			
		

> oh... i'm sorry
> but the message does say that they intend to fix problems and hire some staff and i was just stating that on FA there is some double posting problems for those who have slower connections



There's a simple solution for that:  don't click the button a second time until you've checked (and refreshed) your gallery to see whether or not it's gone through.


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## thecrypto (Sep 15, 2007)

creaturecorp said:
			
		

> Why would you use Python and not something more widespread like PHP and mySQL that people have more experience with and there is more support for? It's not going to make it much less hackable, so I do not see the merit in it. It seems to be elitist "haha I can code Python and you can only code PHP" crap.



Because even though PHP and MySQL you can find more "support" for, that does not mean that it is better. And yeah, we are elitist. I want to make FA as good as possible and that means finding the best programmers possible.

And really, in my personal opinion, if you are a good programmer, the language matters not. The language is just a way to translate those ideas into a way the computer can understand. If you can't pick up a language within a couple of weeks, I don't think you are a good programmer either.


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## net-cat (Sep 15, 2007)

Instead of Python, let's use Assembler. nasm/ld, baby. gcc is for pansies. D:


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## Eevee (Sep 15, 2007)

creaturecorp said:
			
		

> Why would you use Python and not something more widespread like PHP and mySQL that people have more experience with and there is more support for? It's not going to make it much less hackable, so I do not see the merit in it. It seems to be elitist "haha I can code Python and you can only code PHP" crap.


Uh, we don't exactly need hundreds of people here.  We could use bloody FORTRAN if we really wanted to, and either find a handful more people or just learn it ourselves.  Python is a mature, powerful, flexible language with tons of resources; I see no reason not to use it.

Besides that, there may be more people who "know" PHP, but the actual level of coding skill amongst such people has, in my experience, been drastically less than that in..  well, any other programming community.  An unfortunate consequence of making a language so easy that only beginners can use it: it creates a culture largely populated with amateurs.


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 15, 2007)

just to reupdate my first post-

with all this talk about python and what not..I'm sure im not gonna be choosen or helpful lol...but i could always lend a hand with ideas and what not..and small coding..


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## tagnard (Sep 15, 2007)

I need to learn to read the whole thread before posting.


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## Tiger-Paws (Sep 15, 2007)

talking of the sites goodlooks i will quite happly do any of the animation for the site.  Ive gaind quite a reprutation through FA with my Animations so it will be one way for me to thank you guys for provideing this site. Kind regards TP


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## Wolfboy5692 (Sep 15, 2007)

ok then -_- sorry for bothering you about such a trivial matter

now to offer my assistance to FA... I'd gladly be a beta tester but unfortunately i don't know any good computer skills yet _~_ ;


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## kamunt (Sep 16, 2007)

Hmmm, Python, ey...? Well, I've just installed it on my computer. It looks like I have a new way to waste my time after school instead of doing homework. >) Bwahahahah. In seriousness, though, it looks like a pretty fun language, and I have heard good things about it from people who are big on CS matters. One of my RL friends took AP Computer Science last year, took the CS AB AP test (oi, acronyms) and got a 5.  If he says that Python is good, then I'm partial to believing him.


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## HaTcH (Sep 17, 2007)

Python is not elitist though.. Python is the bastard child of C and Visual Basic.

*shrug* I can code in anything if its got good enough documentation.

Sent in my note! 

Elitist would be Lisp.. but to code something the scale of FA in lisp would be.. how we say, unmaintainable?


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## latiass (Sep 17, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Instead of Python, let's use Assembler. nasm/ld, baby. gcc is for pansies. D:




On another note, totally sent a note. Don't currently know Python, but have been looking for an excuse to learn it! Shouldn't take too long to pick up.


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## Paul Revere (Sep 17, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Instead of Python, let's use Assembler. nasm/ld, baby. gcc is for pansies. D:



Assembler?  Wow, FA means serious business


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## Lumpy (Sep 17, 2007)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> Ferrox is a project designed to revamp Fur Affinity, integrating ideas provided by both the community and the current staff.  It is meant to be a new and improved face for Fur Affinity, but it involves a good deal of coding as well as additional support.



will all submissions and accounts be wiped so we have to make new ones?


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## Eevee (Sep 17, 2007)

Importing old accounts and submissions will cost $5 apiece, payable to my PayPal account...


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 17, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> Importing old accounts and submissions will cost $5 apiece, payable to my PayPal account...



I hope that's a joke *L*


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## Pica Delphon (Sep 18, 2007)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> Attention users of Fur Affinity!
> 
> There is much work being done on The Ferrox Project, and I suppose you're wondering what exactly it is.  Ferrox is a project designed to revamp Fur Affinity, integrating ideas provided by both the community and the current staff.  It is meant to be a new and improved face for Fur Affinity, but it involves a good deal of coding as well as additional support.
> 
> ...



Well as I said in te Note I can do any thing with computer I have been Build and Coding for over 30 years now.. And starting to get board with much that is out and about as sites go.. So give me a yelp and I will be glad to help out..


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## kilgayne (Sep 18, 2007)

do they actually need anyone's help? has anyone been contacted to work in the team?

I'm a graduate student in computer sciences yet I didn't get any response to my help offer Â¬_Â¬


```
while (!$ferrox_done)
{
  fuck($you);
}
```

yay!


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## net-cat (Sep 18, 2007)

I'd imagine that they got everyone who has ever copied a JavaScript from one page to another applying and have to sort through them all.

That said, an update _would_ be nice.


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## thecrypto (Sep 18, 2007)

I should be sending out responses to everyone, making lists of who is on what teams and such tomorrow. The flood of notes has finally abated and I will be going through them tonight.


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## crabby_the_frog (Sep 18, 2007)

thecrypto said:
			
		

> snip



Sounds like a plan.


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## net-cat (Sep 18, 2007)

Awesome.

filler!


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## kamunt (Sep 18, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Last I checked, Ferrox is being done in Python, using the *Pylons* and SQLAlchemy frameworks.


I also feel the need to be the first to say, *FA MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS.*

That is all. Also, yeah, if I get accepted onto the coding team (however likely or unlikely that is), I also pledge to learn as much as I can ASAP.  I don't have my hopes up too high, because yeah, I too am sure that anyone who's ever added "custom" CSS code to their MySpace profile is going to be applying, so there's a fair chance I could be swept to the side with the other urchins, but at least I've got a real willingness and want to help. X3
+1 Enthusiasm point


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## kilgayne (Sep 18, 2007)

BY THE WAY, a question burns my lips; if we're selected, are we getting paid?


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## kamunt (Sep 18, 2007)

A) You mean your fingers;
B) I think I can go the safe route with a preliminary _hell naw_.


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## thecrypto (Sep 18, 2007)

There is currently no planned compensation.


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 18, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> BY THE WAY, a question burns my lips; if we're selected, are we getting paid?



wold be kinda cool but NO i doubt it..this is to help out the site...hey..if you want to get paid..then they would have to charge us for accounts...besides your helping out through the INTERNET....how would you get paid easily?


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## kamunt (Sep 18, 2007)

PayPal. And they could just put ads, if they were truly interested in making money. Or, yes, they could charge for "premium accounts".


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 18, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> PayPal. And they could just put ads, if they were truly interested in making money. Or, yes, they could charge for "premium accounts".



true enough but it's for the community of FA...everyone has a bit of them on it and this is to improve it for everyone..if you sign up for it and its a selection based on abilties so they won't pay because some people may not help much even when chosen so they dont need people being annoyed at others being paid this and that


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## kilgayne (Sep 18, 2007)

Okay, I don't expect to get paid with money, of course not (FA admins are furries, and furries are invariably poor, so what can ya do), but I do expect a little compensation equaling the amount of work I would do. I won't write down a hundred pages of code just for the sake of "helping out FA and their Ferrox project". At least if they're going to make paid accounts, I'd expect to have one for free. It's the least they could do. I would do that if I was them. Anyway I would never pay for special benefits on any website unless it's really really cheap and I know I'm helping a community so they don't lose anything. And once the project is finished, I doubt anyone will remember any of the contributors, much like nobody knows who actually worked on Windows Vista (no, it wasn't Bill Gates) so it really isn't so rewarding as it is.

Of course, if they're going to ask me to simply debug their site, I won't ask for much and in most cases, it will be enough of a payment to see in advance what project Ferrox is. But I'm a web developer. I went to college for that. And as any professional artist on this site would do, I won't deploy my full skills for free :wink:

[brag]

I'm not kidding, I could rewrite this whole site by myself... I made a clone of the VCL last year in PHP, and if I could talk to Ch'marr someday you bet I would give it to him... for some reason I got unofficially banned from the VCL forums and I can't even see member profiles. I'm still registered on the gallery module though. Weird.

[/brag]

Anyway, as I said before, good luck on the Ferrox project and don't let your members down for we're still waiting for the day we'll see the search function back!!

EDIT: Damn, I doubt they'll want my help, now xD;


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## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> I do expect a little compensation equaling the amount of work I would do ... Anyway I would never pay for special benefits on any website unless it's really really cheap and...


Oh, sure, that sounds fair.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> But I'm a web developer. I went to college for that. And as any professional artist on this site would do, I won't deploy my full skills for free


Luckily for the free world as we know it, there is a community of people who _will_ deploy their skills for free, leading to the existence of the large majority of software I use...



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> I'm not kidding, I could rewrite this whole site by myself... I made a clone of the VCL last year in PHP


Not to rain on your parade or anything, but VCL is not exactly a technological marvel, PHP is not exactly an impressive skill set, and listing directories is not exactly complicated.  Initiative is good, though, I guess.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> we're still waiting for the day we'll see the search function back!!


I'd be happy to negotiate cost per kloc.


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## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

I am "getting paid" for this with experience I would not otherwise have gotten, assuming I were to get accepted. I mean, it would be a cold day in Hell before I listed "helped a furry community" on my resumÃ©, but that does not change the fact that it still counts as experience. Open source projects (this isn't open source, I think, but open source developers don't get paid either) count as industry experience, especially if it's well known.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> And once the project is finished, I doubt anyone will remember any of the contributors ...


Honestly, the last thing on my mind is "being remembered" for working on a project. I am more than happy being "that other guy that helps out". I do it because I like doing it.

Also Eevee you stole my shirt in the name of your custom title. Give it back.


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## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

okay, Eevee, I have to admit making a clone of the VCL in PHP isn't that impressive, but it's not like it was the best I can do <_<;

I wonder why they keep using this stone age system though. seriously, if they have a phpbb forum, they obviously have a sql database and a version of php running with it, so why should they keep using perl scripts when they can do much better with less efforts?!

Anyway, just for the sake of not looking like a total asshole, That long post I made could be summarized as "I'd like to get a little something out of the work I would do other than experience or some bullshit like that because the time I would spend on this project could be used on more useful things". If other coders want to help and don't care about benefits, hire them instead of me, they obviously have more time to waste than I and are possibly even more skilled than I could ever be.

I now realize the amount of time it takes me to say nothing is hallucinating o.o


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## Falco (Sep 19, 2007)

The proof is in the pudding.
You can have a site with the most elegant code, masterfully written, the backend is flawless. If the frontend doesn't compliment the backend. It will fail as a whole.

I'm interested in what ideas have been cooking up.

I look forward to what will happen, its going to be an adventure.


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## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> I wonder why they keep using this stone age system though. seriously, if they have a phpbb forum, they obviously have a sql database and a version of php running with it, so why should they keep using perl scripts when they can do much better with less efforts?!


Uh, FA _is_ written in PHP at the moment.  What on Earth are you even talking about?  Where did Perl come from, and besides that why would it ever be inherently worse than PHP?



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> "I'd like to get a little something out of the work I would do other than experience or some bullshit like that because the time I would spend on this project could be used on more useful things".


If you don't think you'd get anything out of it then I'm not sure you have the right perspective anyway.  We don't want to just rewrite the existing functionality from scratch in another language and call it a day.


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## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> kilgayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was referring to the VCL, which is currently written in Perl (aka .cgi scripts). Perl was popular in 1989 but now we have PHP and MySQL, which proves to be much simpler and does exactly the same, if not more. For ten lines of Perl code, it takes a single line of PHP. Just try to use a relational database with Perl... so simple, right?!



			
				Eevee said:
			
		

> kilgayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You won't win by using reverse psychology, my friend. If your day job boss came in and asked you to do extra hours for free, would you blindly agree just because you'd "gain experience out of it"?! Hey, every tiny event in one's life gives him experience. Besides, I'm not asking for $50 an hour! I'm not looking to even get paid to begin with. I (was) just expect (-ing) to win some kind of small benefit, like a particular status or something, like as I stated before, if you're going to make paid accounts, I would have hoped to have mine upgraded. Don't you think it's the least I could ask for?

Look, I offer my skills and ask in return only that my help be recognized in a way or another, even if this recognition has no monetary value whatsoever. As far as I know, it doesn't costs you anything to set someone as a moderator or something. This is a fair proposition. And if you can't recognize it, it's really your loss.


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## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Perl was popular in 1989 but now we have PHP and MySQL, which proves to be much simpler and does exactly the same, if not more. For ten lines of Perl code, it takes a single line of PHP. Just try to use a relational database with Perl... so simple, right?!


Oh my God, what are you talking about? We're not using Perl 4 anymore. How can PHP possibly do more than Perl does? Can PHP communicate with a daemon for my G15 LCD? Can it draw complex graphs, for that matter? Can it be used for anything other than web development easily? Are their OpenGL libraries for PHP? Are their modules to create and modify (although in a sort of messy fashion) PDF and ODF documents? To put it simply: is there CPAN? Have you ever browsed CPAN? If you want to do it, there's a module to do it. If not, you can write one yourself.

And can you provide an example of Perl taking more lines of code than PHP? I would like to see it, because I have used both languages quite frequently and PHP always requires more lines.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> If your day job boss came in and asked you to do extra hours for free, would you blindly agree just because you'd "gain experience out of it"?!


I would do it because it's my job. And, legally, they can't make you work for free. Employees are legally entitled to overtime pay if they work more than 44 hours a week, at least where I come from.


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## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

itt epic hijacking



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> I was referring to the VCL, which is currently written in Perl (aka .cgi scripts).


Aha, awesome for them.  Although you are wrong about implementation: CGI does not imply Perl, and Perl does not have to run on CGI.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> Perl was popular in 1989 but now we have PHP and MySQL, which proves to be much simpler and does exactly the same, if not more. For ten lines of Perl code, it takes a single line of PHP. Just try to use a relational database with Perl... so simple, right?!


Uh?  Have you ever even USED Perl?

```
use DBI;
my $dbh = DBI->connect(...);
my $row = $dbh->selectrow_hashref("SELECT * FROM users WHERE name = ?", {}, $username);
```
Of course selectrow_hashref could be one of several methods, or one you inject yourself into DBI (naughty..), or a wrapper of your own.  Not to mention the small pile of ORMs that has accumulated, or that every shred of documentation on database usage with Perl strongly recommends use of placeholders, eliminating the injection problems that plague PHP (with documentation that does nearly the opposite).

I'm also curious to hear what exactly is significantly shorter in PHP.  Functions with callback parameters in particular are a gigantic mess in PHP, but they're quite handy in scripting languages.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> You won't win by using reverse psychology, my friend.


I wasn't using reverse psychology, I was attempting to not be a dick.  I don't have the last word here, but I don't think I want you involved in _any_ software project I ever get my hands on.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> And if you can't recognize it, it's really your loss.


I have yet to be convinced of this.


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 19, 2007)

> Look, I offer my skills and ask in return only that my help be recognized in a way or another, even if this recognition has no monetary value whatsoever. As far as I know, it doesn't costs you anything to set someone as a moderator or something. This is a fair proposition. And if you can't recognize it, it's really your loss.



Dude..get over yourself..your trying reverse psychology on them anyways as well...You don't deserve a thing..if they think you do..they will say so..I would think it would be an honor to be chosen to even help with the ideas (which i would love to help out with). This is just to get random help to improve something which you LIKE not what you WANT.


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## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> Uh?  Have you ever even USED Perl?



Operating Systems 2 class; during 3 months, during the Linux module. I admit I didn't study it very long but what I know for sure is that managing html forms is much harder in Perl than using a simple $_POST['']...

And you know what? If it's going to be that way, I don't even wish to work with you anymore. If asking for a tiny benefit for working on the Ferrox project has to generate this much drama, I don't want to know what will come next.


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## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

```
use CGI;
my $q = new CGI;
my $params = $q->Vars;
```
I don't know where exactly you got your information or why you think an OS class would give you absolute knowledge over uses of the language for the _Web_, but that is painfully wrong.  Also PHP is a horrible language lol trolling.

You're not asking for a tiny benefit; you're insisting that you deserve one (and indirectly insulting the rest of us by doing so) and flaunting your ego.  That, combined with the somewhat disturbing trail of programming tidbits you have posted, is why I don't want to work with you.


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## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

PHP is an horrible language yet the whole site is written in PHP <_< whatever.

You sound like being part of the Ferrox team is an incredible privilege and we should even pay you to work on it, and this is why I don't want to work with YOU.


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## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> PHP is an horrible language yet the whole site is written in PHP <_< whatever.


Glad we can all agree on this.

Sorry for the thread hijacking!


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

LETS REWRITE FURAFFINITY.NET IN PERL! o/


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

Yes, and the current site code is even more horrible; hence the need for Ferrox in the first place.  What is inconsistent about this?

And I am glad we agree, but I didn't say or mean to imply that I should be paid.  Certainly effort is worth paying for, but I'm offering it freely.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> LETS REWRITE FURAFFINITY.NET IN PERL! o/


I would quite readily do so.  Perl is an excellent language.


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

I was being sarcastic <_<; I love PHP and utterly hate Perl, and so do at least 80% of the web community in 2007.

So what, will project Ferrox be coded in Perl?!


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

You have already demonstrated that you don't know all that much about Perl, and 80% of the Web community consists of amateurs, so I don't see how either of those reflects on Perl as a language.  People tend to love PHP because it allows them to bash out code without thinking, creating horrendous behemoths of unmaintainable garbage in the process..  like, for example, the existing FA code.  I have never seen anything in the PHP community that even comes close to groups like PerlMonks or individuals like Damian Conway and Michael Schwern; in fact, it seems rare that I come across a PHP fan who even grasps many higher-level abstract computer science concepts at all.

And no, Ferrox will be written in Python, which I have been looking for an excuse to learn.


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> And no, Ferrox will be written in Python, which I have been looking for an excuse to learn.


m/



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> I love PHP and utterly hate Perl, and so do at least 80% of the web community in 2007.


A+


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

University much?...

Well then have fun, if you feel so confident about your choices and preferences then good for you, but this just sounds like a Mac user talking against PCs to me. Anyway now I know for sure I don't want to be implicated in this massacre.

Personally, I'll keep believing that if Perl was as simple, flexible and utterly awesome as you say, PHP would not exists. I may be not as good as I tried to let you think, but if my teachers tell me PHP is in overall better as a web development language than Perl, I'll believe them.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm still trying to figure out why there's so much hate for PHP here. Yeah, you can bash out some pretty horrible PHP code. But that's true of any language you'd care to mention.

Language does not a good programmer make.

[size=xx-small](Yes, I intentionally screwed that up.)[/size]


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

(efb: this is aimed at kilgayne obviously)

What about university?

I'm glad you are so willing to pass judgment upon things you are unfamiliar with solely based upon popularity.

I believe I adequately explained PHP's existence.



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> I'm still trying to figure out why there's so much hate for PHP here. Yeah, you can bash out some pretty horrible PHP code. But that's true of any language you'd care to mention.


This is true, but it does not free the languages themselves from being subject to quality comparisons.  Malbolge, for example, is not as "good" a language as..  well, any other you'd care to name.  In my experience, PHP actively resists being written nicely in a number of ways.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

mysql_real_escape_string() vs mysql_escape_string(), for one. I can probably find others without too much effort, that's just the one I had to deal with today...


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

University much as in you sound much like an unconventional university computer science geek that likes Perl just because it's a pre-Windows programming language that almost nobody uses anymore.

Also, I think you missed that last sentence in my post, Eevee.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

Perl has its uses. I wrote a program that would rip all the images off of Fchan in Perl.

It used a lot of regular expressions. PHP's PCRE just doesn't cut it when you use sufficiently complex regular expressions...


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Well then have fun, if you feel so confident about your choices and preferences then good for you, but this just sounds like a Mac user talking against PCs to me. Anyway now I know for sure I don't want to be implicated in this massacre.


Then why do you keep coming back to this thread and posting, out of curiosity?



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> I'm still trying to figure out why there's so much hate for PHP here. Yeah, you can bash out some pretty horrible PHP code. But that's true of any language you'd care to mention.


You're right, this is true of any language; however, I have yet to see beautiful code written in PHP. I'm not saying it's not possible, because maybe it is, I just have never seen it.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

latiass said:
			
		

> You're right, this is true of any language; however, I have yet to see beautiful code written in PHP. I'm not saying it's not possible, because maybe it is, I just have never seen it.



Does this count? (Excluding the inlined HTML and JavaScript...)


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> mysql_real_escape_string() vs mysql_escape_string(), for one. I can probably find others without too much effort, that's just the one I had to deal with today...


That the functions even exist and are used so prominently is in itself appalling.  2007, and the manual for the mysql_* functions (as of the last time I looked) still makes no mention of prepared statements and even shows examples that involved directly injecting form data into SQL statements.

Why?  Because the entire language is designed for people who don't know what they're doing and don't care to learn.  It's practically a copy-paste language.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> University much as in you sound much like an unconventional university computer science geek that likes Perl just because it's a pre-Windows programming language that almost nobody uses anymore.


No, I like Perl because it's a solid, mature, flexible language with a large pool of existing resources from which I can draw and a clever, resourceful community that continues to impress me with the things it manages to accomplish.  I dislike PHP because it attracts the sort of pseudo-developers who don't know or care what any of those things mean.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> I may be not as good as I tried to let you think, but if my teachers tell me PHP is in overall better as a web development language than Perl, I'll believe them.


Those who cannot do, teach.
Did e explain why?



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> Perl has its uses. I wrote a program that would rip all the images off of Fchan in Perl.


I'm pretty sure there's some arcane incantation for wget that will do that.



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> It used a lot of regular expressions. PHP's PCRE just doesn't cut it when you use sufficiently complex regular expressions...


Oh, never mind then.
What were you doing that's not in PCRE?  s///g, or the crazy nesters like zero-width lookahead?


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Perl has its uses. I wrote a program that would rip all the images off of Fchan in Perl.
> 
> It used a lot of regular expressions. PHP's PCRE just doesn't cut it when you use sufficiently complex regular expressions...



Every programming language has it's use, I just believe Perl isn't cut for web applications.

Sure it can do so much more than PHP and it's more secure and all, but nobody needs that much versatility for an average modern website. I have to admit I don't remember much from those Perl lessons, but I do know it's far more complicated than PHP, and this is precisely what made me learn it. I remember having to use the split function just to get forms data.

I'm not particularly a fan of Rasmus Lerdorf but I do like the language he developed. And I find it funny that he decided to create his own software to replace the Perl scripts he was using at the time =P



			
				latiass said:
			
		

> Then why do you keep coming back to this thread and posting, out of curiosity?



Looks like I'm being off-topic.


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> ...or the crazy nesters like zero-width lookahead?


I am hard right now!



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> this


Actually that is pretty well done. You obviously know languages besides PHP. Still, the general majority of PHP I have seen is.. pretty awful. ^^; I tried to look through the phpbb source code, and I just.. couldn't do it. It was too awful.


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Sure it can do so much more than PHP and it's more secure and all, but nobody needs that much versatility for an average modern website.


Hm, this is an interesting turnaround from your dire hatred of Perl.
I'm sure the Catalyst and DBIx::Class developers would disagree; that functionality is extremely useful for building flexible modules that do as much work as possible for you while letting you override whatever you want.
You aren't obligated to use every feature, and I don't see how you can dismiss "more secure" so easily in the age of SQL injection and XSS.
Also, I must point out that PHP's builtin functions number in the thousands.  Even the CATEGORIES of functions number almost 200.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> I have to admit I don't remember much from those Perl lessons, but I do know it's far more complicated than PHP, and this is precisely what made me learn it. I remember having to use the split function just to get forms data.


I pointed out before how you can do this in a trivial amount of code.  I am having serious doubts about your teacher's credibility.
Granted it is _possible_ to parse form input yourself, but I don't know why anyone would want to do so.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> And I find it funny that he decided to create his own software to replace the Perl scripts he was using at the time =P


I find it funny that PHP was originally just a Perl script.



			
				kilgayne said:
			
		

> Looks like I'm being off-topic.


Luckily I don't care about staying on-topic in a thread that has obviously served its original purpose and meandered on to some related conversation.



			
				latiass said:
			
		

> I tried to look through the phpbb source code, and I just.. couldn't do it. It was too awful.


I tried to EDIT it, at which point I discovered that little fatal flaw in PHP's shoddy clone of s///e.


----------



## thecrypto (Sep 19, 2007)

First, Ferrox is being written in Python. This is not at all up for debate.

Second, PHP is a horrible language. Yes, since PHP is Turing complete, technically you can do anything in PHP as you can do in Perl or Python or Ruby or any other language. But the comment about no need for security in a modern website. Have you heard of XSS attacks or SQL injection?

Third, We are not looking for code monkeys for Ferrox. We want people who have a desire to learn new systems and new libraries and stretch there knowledge a bit while making this system. The best code comes from those who have some sort of ability to expand their mind to new languages in particular. If I really wanted to be mean and spend the next 3 years making Ferrox, I'd have the entire thing written in Haskell.

We are planning on using systems like Memcached (Written in C), MogileFS (Written in Perl), Pylons and SQLAlchemy (Written in Python), and many other tools throughout the system. They are all written in different languages and with different paradigms do them. We are not having any sort of invention for invention sake. We want to make Ferrox the best multiuser gallery possible and to do that we need the best developers who can also work very well with one another.


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> I pointed out before how you can do this in a trivial amount of code.  I am having serious doubts about your teacher's credibility.



Are we talking about the same Perl?...



			
				thecrypto said:
			
		

> But the comment about no need for security in a modern website. Have you heard of XSS attacks or SQL injection?


I didn't say you don't need security whatsoever. I meant you don't need THIS much. This is a furry art gallery for christ sake, not a governmental client-server application!!



			
				thecrypto said:
			
		

> Third, We are not looking for code monkeys for Ferrox. We want people who have a desire to learn new systems and new libraries and stretch there knowledge a bit while making this system. [...] we need the best developers who can also work very well with one another.


Good thing I don't want to work on it.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> That the functions even exist and are used so prominently is in itself appalling.  2007, and the manual for the mysql_* functions (as of the last time I looked) still makes no mention of prepared statements and even shows examples that involved directly injecting form data into SQL statements.
> 
> Why?  Because the entire language is designed for people who don't know what they're doing and don't care to learn.  It's practically a copy-paste language.


Ah, the joys of debugging legacy code.

You _do_ need to sanitize user input before throwing it to the server. (I usually use intval or come up with a nice regular expression.) *_escape_string is a lazy way to do it...



			
				Eevee said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure there's some arcane incantation for wget that will do that.


Probably. I did it because it was something I had never done before.



			
				Eevee said:
			
		

> Oh, never mind then.
> What were you doing that's not in PCRE?  s///g, or the crazy nesters like zero-width lookahead?


I don't remember. This was years ago, and I can't even find where I saved the program. I just remember being pissed at how it looked in PCRE and wanting to move to Perl. (I think there were some other reasons too. But, as I said, that was a long time ago.)



			
				latiass said:
			
		

> Actually that is pretty well done. You obviously know languages besides PHP. Still, the general majority of PHP I have seen is.. pretty awful. ^^; I tried to look through the phpbb source code, and I just.. couldn't do it. It was too awful.


Thanks. I try to make my PHP code look like my C++ code would. (I had the "if I can't read it, you fail" type teachers.) In that case, I inlined all the HTML/CSS/JavaScript because I was more interested in seeing if I could implement a maze generator using set theory in PHP than anything else. The JavaScript interface was an afterthought.

vBulletin 2.3! DIE DIE DIE DIE!



			
				thecrypto said:
			
		

> We want people who have a desire to learn new systems and new libraries and stretch there knowledge a bit while making this system.


DO WANT.


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Are we talking about the same Perl?...


Did you not read it?

```
use CGI;
my $q = new CGI;
print $q->param('name');
```

Or, if you really hate OO:

```
use CGI ':cgi-lib';
print param('name');
```

Or, if you really hate function calls too:

```
use CGI ':cgi-lib';
my %params = Vars;
print $params{name};
```

The first way is the best by far.
Then again I doubt any serious Web apps are written using CGI any more.  Most would use a framework at this point.



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> You _do_ need to sanitize user input before throwing it to the server.


Not if you use prepared statements.  The database server will take care of it (or the database driver, if the server can't, but MySQL can), and since you're not injecting anything directly into a string anywhere along the line, it is _impossible_ to have SQL injection.


----------



## thecrypto (Sep 19, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Eevee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't blame Eevee for your teacher not teaching you the easy way to parse form input in Perl. The CGI module has been out practically forever. It's been on CPAN since at least 1998 and I know it has existed long before then.

Doing some googling. Pushed the date back to at least 1995 from here http://cgi-lib.berkeley.edu/1.14/cgi-lib.pl.txt. The web wasn't really popular before then so pretty much web application has had the option to use CGI.


----------



## kilgayne (Sep 19, 2007)

thecrypto said:
			
		

> Don't blame Eevee for your teacher not teaching you the easy way to parse form input in Perl. The CGI module has been out practically forever. It's been on CPAN since at least 1998 and I know it has existed long before then.


When did I say I blame him for anything? <_<;


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> Not if you use prepared statements.  The database server will take care of it (or the database driver, if the server can't, but MySQL can), and since you're not injecting anything directly into a string anywhere along the line, it is _impossible_ to have SQL injection.


*does some Google-fu*

Oh, wow. mysql_* fails more than I thought.

I guess that's why they have mysqli_*...


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

thecrypto said:
			
		

> Doing some googling. Pushed the date back to at least 1995 from here http://cgi-lib.berkeley.edu/1.14/cgi-lib.pl.txt


Wow. That's actually pretty awesome. I knew it was old, but damn. I remember once not using CGI for some reason.. ugh. It was terrible. I can't even remember why I did it. Possibly because I somehow managed to not know of CGI's existence. This was years ago.


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

TIME FOR FORM PARSING PERL GOLF WOOO


```
my%params=map{s/%([0-9a-f]{2})/chr hex$1/gei}split/[&;=]/,$ENV{QUERY_STRING}
```


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

I know what that does. It tells me to kill you!


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

I get a birdie on the next hole with fibonacci sequences!~


```
@p=(0,1);until($#p>20){print"$p[-2]n";push @p,$p[-2]+$p[-1]}
```


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

Oh, you asked for it.  _busting out the page arrangement problem_


```
#!/usr/bin/perl -pl
$t=$_+4-($_%4||4)||4;@m=(1..$_,(-1)x4);$_.=' pages: ['.join('], [',map{join',',@$_}map[map$m[$_],$_-2,$_-1,$t-$_,$t-$_+1],map$_*2,1..$t/4).']'
```


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

```
s''$/=2048;while(<>){G=29;R=142;if((@a=unqT="C*",_)[20]&48){D=89;_=unqb24,qT,@ b=map{ord
qB8,unqb8,qT,_^$a[--D]}@INC;s/...$/1$&/;Q=unqV,qb25,_;H=73;O=$b[4]<<9
|256|$b[3];Q=Q>>8^(P=(E=255)&(Q>>12^Q>>4^Q/8^Q))<<17,O=O>>8^(E&(F=(S=O>>14&7^O)
^S*8^S<<6))<<9,_=(map{U=_%16orE^=R^=110&(S=(unqT,"xbntdxbzx14d")[_/16%8]);E
^=(72,@z=(64,72,G^=12*(U-2?0:S&17)),H^=_%64?12:0,@z)[_%8]}(16..271))[_]^((D>>=8
)+=P+(~F&E))for@a[128..$#a]}print+qT,@a}';s/[D-HO-U_]/$$&/g;s/q/pack+/g;eval
```


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

Hey now, that's obfuscated, not golf.  Cheating!


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

It also has nothing to do with web pages.

I had to post _something_ though.


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> Oh, you asked for it. busting out the page arrangement problem


God dammit. I will think of something to beat that, I swear to God. I would cheat and post the regex from Email::Valid, but that thing is massive. And I didn't write it anyway.


----------



## Eevee (Sep 19, 2007)

*PRIME NUMBER FILTER*

```
(1 x $_)=~/^(11+)1+$/
```

Beat THAT!

I didn't write it, but you didn't write yours either, so!


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

I don't think I can.


----------



## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 19, 2007)

0.o....this went from wanted people to random fights and coding...LOL


----------



## latiass (Sep 19, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> prime number thing



Okay you know I didn't write this, because I told you, but:

```
$l=<>;$_=1;(1x$_)!~/^(11+)1+$/&&push@p,$_ while($_++&&$_<=$l);
@f=(0,1);push@f,@f[-1]+@f[-2]while(@f[-1]<$l);
$c++&&grep(/^$c$/,@f)&&grep(/^$c$/,@p)&&print"$cn"while($c<=$l);
```
I win.


----------



## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 19, 2007)

*types in randomness*

$^W%$^(WINDOWS)#$*%$)@@!#@!#!

i can type random too! xDD


----------



## net-cat (Sep 19, 2007)

I'd be interested to see a Perl program that could output Graham's Number.


----------



## AerusalePhoxJr (Sep 19, 2007)

your all fools....but..may a genuis mind join this little project and shananigans


```
[(op#)]34{ik}^$*&(20%)%20%20%20{insert}(link%20to%20map%20engine){outsert}{z}[(/b/)]
```


----------



## thecrypto (Sep 20, 2007)

All of the notes sent up through now have been processed. If you haven't received a response I must have deleted it by mistake or am still trying to figure out what to do with your note.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 20, 2007)

If there's a possibility of lost notes, would it be possible to post a list of who you received notes from? (Not what you intend to do with each note, just who you received them from.)


----------



## Paul Revere (Sep 20, 2007)

latiass said:
			
		

> Eevee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







And I can also prove women are evil.

"Women are time and money"
women = (time) (money)

"Time is money"
time = money

"Money is the root of all evil"
money = sqrt(evil)

women = (time) (money) = (money)^2 = evil

Therefore, women are evil :twisted:


----------



## AerusalePhoxJr (Sep 20, 2007)

this is very annoying........


```
import SOAPpy
   # ...
   service = SOAPpy.SOAPProxy(wsdlUrl , header=headers)
   # ...
```

now can you end this mess?[/code]


----------



## kayedarktail (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm sorry to inform you all that you have no lives.

This shit is worse than gaming console wars.

Seriously.


----------



## net-cat (Sep 21, 2007)

I couldn't not do it.


----------



## Issarlk (Sep 21, 2007)

FA should be programmed with the Lolcat programming language. It would be awesome.

(see lolcode )


----------



## Eevee (Sep 21, 2007)

kayedarktail said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to inform you all that you have no lives.
> 
> This shit is worse than gaming console wars.


What is?  The arguments over languages, which are relevant to the job opportunities I may find and how much I will enjoy my working life, or the obfuscations and golfs, which involved no real conflict at all?


----------



## AerusalePhoxJr (Sep 21, 2007)

i have no idea what you siad.....

here,have a sandwich......


----------



## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 21, 2007)

no lives? maybe you dont but ALOT of people perfer online to RL because its less "drama" and trouble...YOU have no imangination


----------



## Paul Revere (Sep 21, 2007)

Issarlk said:
			
		

> FA should be programmed with the Lolcat programming language. It would be awesome.
> 
> (see lolcode )



OMG THATS HYSTERICAL!! LOLCODE!!


----------



## dragonmanmike (Sep 22, 2007)

I'm not really a coder but I have experience with HTML and CSS as well as some basic Javascript.  My real strength really lies in visual design.  I do have experience doing visual design for websites.  Check out my portfolio and examples of my designs at http://dragonmanstudios.com


----------



## cesarin (Sep 23, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Eevee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dude. cant you just shut up?
this thread was for searching people who could want to HELP BUILDING FERROX in the language that the leaders says (aka crypto?)..
I have no idea why you keep coming with your "but I know better than you because my teacher said so, so the language you use SUCKS"
if you don't like, GO AWAY... not need to push your goodarn "but we should use this..!!"

*edit*
and jeebus.. that lolcode is hilarius, wondering if someone could rewrite the basic compiler using the cat talk XD


----------



## Tevildo (Sep 23, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to see a Perl program that could output Graham's Number.


Wouldn't be a problem; obviously, it would need a custom form of integer representation, but the actual calculation is fairly simple.

Outputting it within a timeframe that bears a credible relationship to 10^10^10^10^10^1000000 times the age of the universe is another matter. 

On the main issue - I have some skills with C, C++, and PHP - any of that any good?


----------



## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 23, 2007)

cesarin said:
			
		

> kilgayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



THANK YOU...ive been syaing that before but no one seems to listen to newbies like me...and how the hell do you change your title like that? i cant change my pup one :/ anyways..

Good luck everyone on getting choosen! doubt i will since i can only think of ideas LOL


----------



## net-cat (Sep 23, 2007)

Draken_The_Dragon said:
			
		

> THANK YOU...ive been syaing that before but no one seems to listen to newbies like me...and how the hell do you change your title like that? i cant change my pup one :/ anyways..


There are two ways to do it:

1. Pester the admins about it. (I can't speak to the effectiveness of this method, as I've never tried it. I suppose it would depend on the admin and whether or not you caught them on a good day.)
2. Sometimes they turn on custom titles for 24 or 48 hours. Wait for that to happen.

(There's no "magic post count" that lets you set a custom title.)


----------



## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 23, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Draken_The_Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ah ok lol..i think'll ill wait...dont need them kicking me off for pestering x3


----------



## net-cat (Sep 23, 2007)

Heh. I doubt anyone's going to kick you off for asking, as long as you're not annoying about it.


----------



## kamunt (Sep 23, 2007)

Alrite! I R Beta'd. 8) I'm happeh nao. In other news, WOW, LOLCODE is frigging hilarious!! XD I think they're actually trying to make it, too, which is even more hilarious...


----------



## Eevee (Sep 24, 2007)

Uh, there are already implementations.

Figures the PHP one is a regex hack and an eval() rather than a real parser.


----------



## AerusalePhoxJr (Sep 24, 2007)

regex rymes rith (beep)


----------



## kamunt (Sep 24, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> Uh, there are already implementations.
> 
> Figures the PHP one is a regex hack and an eval() rather than a real parser.



:shock:

*checks the site again*

:shock: You're right. ...Oh, dear me.


----------



## yak (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm glad the perl monkeys are frolicking in the sun, throwing their poo-poos at each other and the innocent bystanders; but from what i believe, this thread was not about language holy wars, silly e-penis windmills and unreasonable critique.

In my beliefs, it shouldn't matter to a programmer at heart in what language he does this or that. Programmers are above that, programming language is just a tool, a glue to get your concept together and set it afloat, hoping it will not sink.

I don't want to have to make a programming language do something it wasn't intended to do. I'd rather spend that time doing something else, or improving the already existing and written code (this is not related to FA. nothing but a complete rewrite could help here).

And i couldn't care if FA was rewritten in Perl, Ruby, Smalltalk, Python, Lisp, Pascal or even Brainfuck, just as long as it would be convenient to do so, and fast. Here, read this,
http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html


In short, 
Simple things need to be done in the simplest way.
For more complex things, there are two approaches. You can either use higher level language constructs and barely readable code, or you can break the complex task down to simple steps and do them in the simple way. 

In those terms PHP is quite equal to Perl. You just chose a different approach.
If you have a strong grasp of OOP, MVC, DRY and efficient programming, you will write beautiful code in any language. It is the level where you become above the tools you use.


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## Eevee (Sep 25, 2007)

Not in Brainfuck or Malbolge.  Languages are not perfect, but that doesn't mean they are all equal.  Some resist being written in nicely, some have strange quirks in absolutely every feature, some are just complete garbage.  A good programmer can always work around these, but that doesn't entirely forgive the language of its flaws.

Saying that a programmer shouldn't care what language he's using is akin to saying a carpenter shouldn't care whether he has nails, screws, or pretzels.

I have to agree with many of the comments on that link; if that guy was spending over a year trying to hack Rails to be doing things it wasn't really meant to be doing, he shouldn't have been using Rails.


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## Paul Revere (Sep 25, 2007)

I switched majors in college from Computer Science to Mathematics.  I just don't want to spend the rest of my life working behind a computer, and I certainly don't want to spend all that time learning to become a great programmer just to spend my time making money for someone else.  The whole industry is eaten up already by people who already have money, and it's just a machine for making rich people richer.

I don't know what to make of this story, but I thought this quote was funny:
"IBM is pleased that we have amicably resolved these long standing issues,â€ said Ed Lineen, senior vice president and general counsel, IBM.

Who is pleased?  Oh, the IBM -itself- is pleased, he's saying?  It's funny how this guy refers to a corporation like it's a person.  :roll:  I bet more than half of the people that work for IBM don't even know or care about these 'long standing issues'.


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## Damaratus (Sep 25, 2007)

Wow, Paul, this isn't the thread for that post, this is about getting coders and helpers for Ferrox and in part about the language being used to code it.  If you start posting your particular stuff in the wrong places again additional action will be taken.


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## Paul Revere (Sep 25, 2007)

Sorry.  It seemed on-topic at the time.  What I was trying to say, in response to Yak,  is that it seems good programming is becoming less and less useful/appreciated.  I deleted a paragraph where I mentioned that because computers are getting faster, software companies prefer just getting a program written rather than having clever ways of making it work.  And my whole schpiel on how programming jobs are being exported to third-world countries.

EDIT:  ALL HAIL TEH FERROX!!   C:


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## Egypt Urnash (Sep 27, 2007)

Sweet mother of chaos, guys. I'm sure you're really proud of your line noise wrangling skills, but part of being a professional in _any_ field is _working within the limits_ - if you're joining a project written in Python, the first words out of your mouth shouldn't be 'wtf python suxx0rz perl r00lz!!!'; if you're joining a crew working on a feature film being done with Maya your first words shouldn't be 'omg Maya?! lame! you should be using 3DSMaxxxx!' - and if it's a 2D film with design heavily influenced by the Bayeaux Tapestries, you'd be ill-advised to bitch about that and suggest drawing it like 'Otaku Fan Service Desu-ka!!' instead.

(However, if you're doing web design, I think you're allowed a certain amount of pissing and moaning about bodging things up to make it work with IE.)

You get to make fundamental decisions like 'what language is this built in', 'what are the design influences', 'what is our core toolchain' when you're the _director_ of the project.


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## Amaroq (Sep 28, 2007)

I can code in xhtml, css, javascript, php, and am learning c++. When I first learned of this project, my interest was piqued. Then I read on, and learned that not only is PHP not going to be used, but that everybody's bashing it?

I understand, and even agree, that if the decision-makers want to use Python, then that's their decision and applicants must be willing to work with it/learn it if they want to help. I dunno if I'll apply to help code this, mostly because I don't know Python yet and I'm a very unmotivated person in terms of learning and in terms of doing the code I need to do. I just can't get myself to do something unless I've become extremely interested in doing it. Maybe I will though. It'll give me a reason to learn Python, as a friend of mine has been pushing me to do so. (He's currently making me learn Scheme.)

Whether or not I do decide to help, I feel that I must at least stand in PHP's defense. PHP is the first scripting language I learned seriously, and I consider it my 'native' language. Sure, there's some horror stories out there about badly programmed or non-eloquently written PHP, but those programmers would still be just as terrible at programming sensibly and eloquently using any other language.

PHP is a security risk? Sure, there's injection. But sterilizing one's inputs is something every programmer should know. If the PHP programmer knew how to write secure programs, this wouldn't even be an issue.

If someone writes a bad program in PHP, it doesn't mean the language is inadequate. It means the programmer is incompetent. PHP is a perfectly good and respectible language in the hands of a competent programmer, and it saddens me to see such an "anybody who programs in PHP must be a newb programmer since it's so easy to use" mentality present here.

Also, I believe someone said "Can it draw complex graphs, for that matter?" Yes, I'm pretty sure it can. PHP does have a library called GD used for image manipulation. So once you have the code written to process the information for the graph, yes, you can draw said graph. You could even make an entire image gallery complete with thumbnail generation using only PHP and it's GD library, as well as many other things. Heck, I'll see if this board will let me use my random-image avatar with random-colored text drawn onto it just to show off something that's possible with it.

And no, that last part wasn't a shot at using Python for this project or even a suggestion to use PHP GD for the furaffinity galleries. I just think that PHP deserves at least some respect, at least from the people who've given up on the language just because it has a few quirks before they've even fully immersed themselves into the language. It can do more and better than what you assume. (Perhaps we should make a language debate topic so this one stops going off-topic?)

Maybe I'll familiarize myself with lolcode and write a decent PHP implementation of the language, just to prove a point. I'm sure I can do a lot better than that person who hacked together a regex/eval() combination and do the language some justice.


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## Eevee (Sep 28, 2007)

1. PHP is Turing-complete and supports C bindings.  Any language fitting these two categories, no matter how good or bad, can accomplish any programming task.  That isn't impressive, and it doesn't make a language good.  I could create a language that couldn't do anything except make library calls and it would still be able to do anything.
2. Yes, bad programmers write bad code.  Yes, good programmers can write good (fsvo "good") code in (almost*) any language.  This does _not_ make the language free of fault.  Using this as a standard, you can easily claim that every language is "good" because there exists some good programmer who can write "good" code in it!  It's possible to write fairly readable code in _Brainfuck_ if you comment and space liberally enough; that doesn't make it a practical language by any means.
I could ramble endlessly, but I hear these two points brought up repeatedly, yet they mean nothing and wouldn't be bullet points in favor of _anything_, any more than "has four wheels" is a notable feature of a car.

Make a language debate thread if you want; this one hasn't much use left either way.


* I say "almost" because the sole exception coming to mind is Malbolge.  For any value of "good", and any language biases aside, I believe it is impossible to write good code in Malbolge.


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## Youngbull (Sep 28, 2007)

i have NO coding experiece or anything else of that nature, but i'm up for the ideas part 

idea no. 1: edit-buttons for comments on artwork and journals.
why? cause many of us find out only AFTER having posted a reply that they've done some major mispelling  resulting in a line of reposts trying to fix it up 

might have been suggested before, but i suggest it as well ^^

good luck with the project and i hope all goes well


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 28, 2007)

lol i "signed up" for the same thing xDD great minds think alike..which means they are great ideas! :3


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## Youngbull (Sep 28, 2007)

hehe, yeah. great minds aren't necessarily the most skilled either 

*just read through the entire thread, and has the headache to show from it*


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## cesarin (Sep 28, 2007)

Youngbull said:
			
		

> i have NO coding experiece or anything else of that nature, but i'm up for the ideas part
> 
> idea no. 1: edit-buttons for comments on artwork and journals.
> why? cause many of us find out only AFTER having posted a reply that they've done some major mispelling  resulting in a line of reposts trying to fix it up
> ...



sadly, they have said it before, but ill repeat it for you.

the editing feature can be exploited for bad stuff
like you harass someone, then he whines to the admin, THEN YOU EDIT THE COMMENT so it doesn't look like he had harrased.. and thus the admin gets pissed with the victim.


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## Amaroq (Sep 28, 2007)

Which is why you secretly keep a log of what the post said before the edits.  The admin/mod could have a "history of this post" button they could click to see what edits have been done.


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## robomilk (Sep 29, 2007)

Amaroq said:
			
		

> Which is why you secretly keep a log of what the post said before the edits.  The admin/mod could have a "history of this post" button they could click to see what edits have been done.



That would cause massive database sizes, MediaWiki has it, but then again their databases are MASSIVE; even on a small site it can get quite sizable! (seriously, I've installed it enough times to know.)


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## net-cat (Sep 29, 2007)

It's why they have "This post was last edited by ___ at ___." messages.


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## Draken_The_Dragon (Sep 29, 2007)

yea..it would make a pile up but part of the hope is that people arent THAT rude towards each other *has already been victim to a few rude apples* but the idea songs cool and as netkitty said it would/has the last edited by thing.

Another idea though is to have personal tags on your post but are limited so they don't make an ENTIRE page (ive been just copying and pasting into my posts whats at the bottom of my sig, but one line shorter) so that people ave a way of making that post "theirs" and having extra for people to read/watch and laugh at and maybe an easier way to find other things about that person, like they have on here to the left


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## Youngbull (Sep 29, 2007)

cesarin said:
			
		

> Youngbull said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sadly that is true, but if you ctrl+prt scr (aka copy screen) you can instantly take a screenshot of the chat which you can upload as proof or send to an admin. 

i only suggested it cause then people like me often making mistypings don't have to fill an entire comments page with their corrections :/

and anyway i was just suggesting, and i did not know of it's previous issuings or history of abuse or anything  cause i usually just stay to the comments and only visit the forum on rare occasions. (like this)


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## SakuraMerquise (Sep 29, 2007)

Hey, guys!   I haven't much skill or experience with coding, but I'll gladly volunteer to be a Beta tester!


As far as suggestions go...  Search feature, plz?  *heart heart*


-Sakky (aka "Tits McGee")


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## Twitch_Dracoraptor (Sep 29, 2007)

Sent in my note to Crypto

hope that i could use the amout of knowledge i have to give the site a functional Search Engine


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## Rhainor (Sep 30, 2007)

A little off-topic, bear with me for a sec...



			
				Youngbull said:
			
		

> sadly that is true, but if you ctrl+prt scr (aka copy screen)...



What's with this?  I've *never* had to hold the Ctrl key to take a screenshot with PrintScreen.  Just push PrtScr, then open up Paint and hit "Paste".

</offtopic>


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## Eevee (Sep 30, 2007)

cesarin said:
			
		

> sadly, they have said it before, but ill repeat it for you.
> 
> the editing feature can be exploited for bad stuff
> like you harass someone, then he whines to the admin, THEN YOU EDIT THE COMMENT so it doesn't look like he had harrased.. and thus the admin gets pissed with the victim.


This is why Digg et al have limited edit windows of a few minutes -- enough to fix mistakes, but not enough to make massive changes after many other people have read what you said.



			
				robomilk said:
			
		

> That would cause massive database sizes, MediaWiki has it, but then again their databases are MASSIVE; even on a small site it can get quite sizable! (seriously, I've installed it enough times to know.)


MediaWiki is not a forum.  Post editing is a rare operation on forums and would be even moreso with comments, whereas wikis are designed to have large articles regularly edited by a large number of people.


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## robomilk (Oct 1, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> robomilk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please note I was referring to the main FA website and the idea to keep a backup of every revision made to every comment.


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## Eevee (Oct 1, 2007)

Yes, that is exactly what I was responding to?  What is the problem?


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## Stratelier (Oct 1, 2007)

> What's with this? I've *never* had to hold the Ctrl key to take a screenshot with PrintScreen. Just push PrtScr, then open up Paint and hit "Paste".


I don't know about Ctrl+PrtScrn, but Alt+PrtScrn saves a snapshot of the active window (or dialog box) rather than the entire screen.


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## Rhainor (Oct 2, 2007)

Stratadrake said:
			
		

> I don't know about Ctrl+PrtScrn, but Alt+PrtScrn saves a snapshot of the active window (or dialog box) rather than the entire screen.



Now *that* one is useful.  But the Ctrl+PrtScn does the same thing as PrtScn alone.


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## Amaroq (Oct 2, 2007)

Oddly enough, simply PrtScrn has never worked for me. I always had to Ctrl+PrntScrn. I've always wondered if I was the only one.


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## Floru (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm willing to volunteer some of my time to do some QA and Beta testing.

I have many games under-my-belt while working as QA at Electronic Arts. Feel free to contact me if you want my assistance and/or want to ask me anything.


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## Eevee (Oct 23, 2007)

This isn't a _vidya game_, son.  This is *serious* pornography.


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## Howard777 (Oct 27, 2007)

I have no idea how to code... but i'll what i can... :twisted:


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## kilgayne (Oct 28, 2007)

Eevee said:
			
		

> This isn't a _vidya game_, son.  This is *serious* pornography.



Best. Quote. Ever. Hands down! 

EDIT: Oh, also I decided to make my own benchmarks to see if PHP is as slow as you all pretend. For two scripts using the same structure, Perl will take in average 12.4 seconds to generate the output against 17.8 with PHP. Looks like you were right, and I haven't tested Python yet.

However, to prefer using Perl for web dev over PHP, you really gotta need that 40% increase indeed <_<;


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## Pi (Oct 31, 2007)

kilgayne said:
			
		

> Eevee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or you really gotta need a language that's got a vague semblance of proper design behind it.

And just because you keep pissing me off:

Respond to our claims about PHP with some verifiable evidence or at least a somewhat valid argument. I continue to state that PHP does not promote good coding practices, abstraction, reusability, portability, security, safety, or any of the -ies that Python and Ruby come with and are relatively easy to add to perl. The only thing you can seem to come up with is "well newgrounds uses php". That is not a valid argument, so until you can come up with one, just shut the fuck up.

Finally, just so you know, I am not a member of the Ferrox team, never will be (because the admins hate me, and I refuse to work with Python), and don't want to be (I hate web design too.).


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## codewolf (Oct 31, 2007)

Pi said:
			
		

> Finally, just so you know, I am not a member of the Ferrox team, never will be (because the admins hate me, and I refuse to work with Python), and don't want to be (I hate web design too.).



in which case:
1) why are you in a thread about recruiting for the ferrox team?
2) why are you trying to start drama in said thread?


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## Pi (Oct 31, 2007)

codewolf said:
			
		

> Pi said:
> 
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> ...



In both cases, because otherwise Kilgayne will never see it, because he blocked me like some kind of 2-year-old kid.

The ferrox coders already know my opinions, so it doesn't count as starting drama. I'd say grow a thicker skin, but that'd require you have one already.


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## codewolf (Oct 31, 2007)

Pi said:
			
		

> I'd say grow a thicker skin, but that'd require you have one already.


if that was meant to be insulting you still have a lot to learn. i mean try something thats a bit more personal if you really want to insult me, im sure even you can do that


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## Pi (Oct 31, 2007)

codewolf said:
			
		

> Pi said:
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You're not worth the effort.


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## codewolf (Oct 31, 2007)

Pi said:
			
		

> codewolf said:
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ooh touche


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## Pi (Oct 31, 2007)

Where did nrr's post go?


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## Rhainor (Oct 31, 2007)

Pi said:
			
		

> Where did nrr's post go?



Nrr?  Nrr's banned.  Has been since (as far as I can tell) roughly last December.


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## Eevee (Nov 1, 2007)

nrrsecution?


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## TehSean (Nov 1, 2007)

I remember when Xax found broken code and was banned for it during a beta of FA. During a beta. Banned. Banned for breaking the site during a beta.

Xax did some exploitive research on a site called AFFN and instead of being banned, was asked to be a moderator, having his code changes be accepted and recognized as helpful instead of aggressive...

I don't understand a lot of the UI changes (Fuzzy dates especially). It seems like things that were changed just to change them while things that don't seem to make sense to me remain unchanged.. Like when you go to access your Control Panel, the tool functionality feels very scrambled to me. This is just a single example, but the business end of the control panel, in the page transition, moves from the right side to the left side. You access it on the right, and the actual panel appears on the left.

There is a lot of visual inconsistency as well.

The gallery isn't centered when you're viewing an image due to the borders on either side of the page, the ad banner section on the left especially.

And it's extremely hard to tell if there has been improvement in the site when a lot of the updates, even the visually-obvious ones, are released without notification. So it's hard to tell if there has been progress or if the coders even want recognition for their labor, especially difficult to tell in a time when the site appears to be getting slower and slower despite registration apparently still shut down.

Isn't there a "Type This Code" check you could implement to force human response? While there 'is always a way', wouldn't that way allow you to re-open registration functionality without widespread manybotting problems? .. because registration seems like one of the most basic needs for this gallery to have.


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## dave hyena (Nov 1, 2007)

Nrr was perma-banned for bringing down the site for several hours with a comment-bot attack.


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## yak (Nov 1, 2007)

The first, and the most significant reason is legacy code. 
Other reasons are the following:

1. Current code doesn't have a half-decent templating system. It's hard to go mocking around with page design.

2. Current code has some poor design choices when it comes to database structure and dataset definitions. It's a bit difficult and not really efficient to make new features using the DB, as opposed to, say, with a normalized DB structure.

3. Regarding slowdowns, well, if it wasn't for for that labor the site would have gotten down to a crawl and worse /really/ fast. We're still runnig on the same hardware as we did 9 months ago. 
Besides, one of the drives in our RAID has died recently. With an I/O load of ~110% at any given moment of time_with_ a complete RAID, you can see how it affects the performance with one of the drives being down. But he already have a new box to use, and it is being set up.

4. Current code is left for scraps. 
It's not really wise to significantly update it, as it will be replaced. But it's still a good testing ground for small things and features, to see how the users react to them and if they're useful enough to be implemented in the new code.



I'll tell you how it usually is.
You set yourself a goal to fix/add to a certain page, say, the control pannel. You have to design new/change the templates for it, but it's so bad you got an urge to root it out and replace it with something more suitable. Suppressing that urge you move on. 
Now you'd probably have to use the DB to store things in. But the DB is a hack, and now you have the urge to fix it's structure. Doing a quick grep on the code you quickly realize you'd have to rewride ~70% of it, if you proceed with structure change. Supressing the urge again. 
If it's a new feature using the primary data storage, you have to fight an urge to restructure it, as it's also a gigantic hack around the FS limitation for maximum files/folders in a folder (separate folders with symlinks back to the original).
If you have to work with an already existing feature you have to fight an urge to rewrite it from scratch, just because the amount of "wrong" there is overwhelming.

Hey, i'm not looking for excuses. I'm just saying that even before you try to do something, and all the way through the process you're completely discouraged and demotivated. 

New registration system involves working with all abovementioned things, and i just can't bring myself to applying a quick fix here and at this time. Give me a time to work on it these weekends.


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## Pi (Nov 1, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> Nrr was perma-banned for bringing down the site for several hours with a comment-bot attack.



Oh, right, I forgot that the administration is totally unreasonable here.


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## Damaratus (Nov 1, 2007)

Pi said:
			
		

> Oh, right, I forgot that the administration is totally unreasonable here.



The action originally taken against nrr was not in the least unreasonable in terms of protecting the site from someone who was clearly attacking it and made it evident who they were.

If nrr had wanted reasonable with that particular situation, he had plenty of other options he could have taken.  Just because you can make a point by bringing down the site doesn't mean you should.  Regardless of this fact, it was in the past, and there are other developments for the future.

Nrr has shown some interest in helping with FA in a positive way, only that has been slightly hampered at the moment due to internal miscommunications.


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## Pi (Nov 1, 2007)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> Pi said:
> 
> 
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> ...



Okay. Whatever.



			
				Damaratus said:
			
		

> If nrr had wanted reasonable with that particular situation, he had plenty of other options he could have taken.  Just because you can make a point by bringing down the site doesn't mean you should.  Regardless of this fact, it was in the past, and there are other developments for the future.



Okay. Whatever.



			
				Damaratus said:
			
		

> Nrr has shown some interest in helping with FA in a positive way, only that has been slightly hampered at the moment due to internal miscommunications.



Okay. So why's he still banned from the forums by the oh-so-reasonable management, again?


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## Tachyon (Nov 9, 2007)

Ahem... Despite the (amusing) drama this thread seems to have generated (Furries? Drama? Who would've guessed?), I'd like to ask: Is the callout for help on Ferrox still valid? 'Cause I'm interested if it is.


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