# Regarding Recent Changes to the Forum



## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

As many of you know we recently made changes to the FA Forums between moderators and the forum heirarchy. Within the past year the number of complaints and concerns we've received regarding the forums has gone up exponentially -- reports of aggressive staff, overly hostile users and a general feeling of unease from new users. Quite a few of these issues were brought up by moderators themselves.

Chase has been made moderator lead in the mean time while we work on restructuring both the forum moderators and main site admins. Our goal is to utilize the forums more for FA news and support, to properly restructure how we interact with users, increase communication and be more visible. We can not do that if users do not feel welcomed on the forum, where they're insulted or made to feel unwelcome.

We're not trying to rock the boat or re-invent the wheel, turn the forums into a "hugbox" or drive out the regulars. Nor is it our goal to change the format of the forums overnight. FA and FAF have two separate communities which are independent of one another, and we want to respect that. We also want to make sure those new to the forums are treated with respect and courtesy -- the same respect and courtesy we expect all users to extend to one another equally.

We're not making huge changes, we're not going to stop the fantastic discussion on the forums. Discussion is what the forums are all about. But want the forums to accessible and friendly to all users.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 2, 2014)

What boggles my mind is why it took so long just to make a meaningful attempt to answer a few questions.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

Gibby said:


> What boggles my mind is why it took so long just to make a meaningful attempt to answer a few questions.



We're going through a re-org, and trying to deal with quite a bit at once. We'd hoped that the initial reaction would have died down and we could carry on with trying to complete what we needed to, but that didn't quite go as anticipated.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> We're going through a re-org, and trying to deal with quite a bit at once. We'd hoped that the initial reaction would have died down and we could carry on with trying to complete what we needed to, but that didn't quite go as anticipated.



A storm does not calm itself down.

If it does, it's because of global warming.


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## Tailmon1 (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm sure it will get better. Often there were slaps up side the head and bans without a warning. 
I always preferred to PM the person and say Hey don't do that again instead of them finding them 
selves banned. The Object of the staff is to try to keep people here not piss them off.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> A storm does not calm itself down.
> 
> If it does, it's because of global warming.


I asked Al Gore to join the mod team. He just laughed and laughed, and walked away, holding his head in his hand, crying joyous tears.

Not cool, Al Gore.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Personally, I want to ask, why Chase?

It's from my understanding that he has an unsavory history. As it's been...pretty obvious, people are not happy about this because of this history therefore boat-rocking, making waves, (and whatever other ocean-related allegory) have already happened regardless of intention.

Why not appoint someone people know they can trust and relate to? I mean, I don't know this guy from Adam's house cat. I've never really seen him on the forums so why not someone that's already familiar with the forums? Maybe other mods as a replacement?


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Gibby said:


> What boggles my mind is why it took so long just to make a meaningful attempt to answer a few questions.



It's been a very stressful few days. We're trying to get all this stuff stable still. I just really want to stress that we don't want to scare you guys off. Trust me, if we were trying to ban everyone and kill the community, I wouldn't be here anymore. I love being part of the community here with you guys. Just please understand where we're coming from. We really need to tone some of the hostility down, and communication between us and dragoneer and co is really getting better. 

We're sorry if you guys took things personally, but we're doing what we feel is right for everyone. We're not going to ban people for having opinions. Just try not to be so hostile about them :c



Dragoneer said:


> I asked Al Gore to join the mod team. He just  laughed and laughed, and walked away, holding his head in his hand,  crying joyous tears.
> 
> Not cool, Al Gore.


Show the man some respect. He did invent the internet, after all.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> I asked Al Gore to join the mod team. He just laughed and laughed, and walked away, holding his head in his hand, crying joyous tears.
> 
> Not cool, Al Gore.




Al Gore be like

"haha you picked Bush. Guess what's I see now? Al Gore"


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## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> Personally, I want to ask, why Chase?
> 
> It's from my understanding that he has an unsavory history. As it's been...pretty obvious, people are not happy about this because of this history therefore boat-rocking, making waves, (and whatever other ocean-related allegory) have already happened regardless of intention.
> 
> Why not appoint someone people know they can trust and relate to? I mean, I don't know this guy from Adam's house cat. I've never really seen him on the forums so why not someone that's already familiar with the forums? Maybe other mods as a replacement?



Because I know that I can trust Chase. I do not know if Chase plans to stay head of the forums until we can appoint someone better, but we needed somebody who could handle the task at hand. Chase handles Code of Conduct Enforcement on the main site, and due to the circumstances, we needed somebody right away. There's been a disconnect between main site staff and forum mods, and I didn't know anyone with that level of trust on the mod side. We're trying to rectify that, and have expanded our communication for the entire mod to team better re-incorporate the mods and FA staff.

We're re-examining how all of FA is structured right now (or in some cases, lack of it). There's been a build up of rust, and we're trying to get things shiny and clean so we can move on and work on improving things.


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## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

Just don't touch the rants and raves board, its a great source of entertainment.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> Just don't touch the rants and raves board, its a great source of entertainment.



I stay the hell away from there anyways. Its a wretched hive of scum and villainy >:C


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## Chase (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> Just don't touch the rants and raves board, its a great source of entertainment.



*Looks at his To-Do List....*

_1. Rants and Raves Board_

Uh... oh, well, um....


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## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Because I know that I can trust Chase. I do not know if Chase plans to stay head of the forums until we can appoint someone better, but we needed somebody who could handle the task at hand. Chase handles Code of Conduct Enforcement on the main site, and due to the circumstances, we needed somebody right away. There's been a disconnect between main site staff and forum mods, and I didn't know anyone with that level of trust on the mod side. We're trying to rectify that, and have expanded our communication for the entire mod to team better re-incorporate the mods and FA staff.
> 
> We're re-examining how all of FA is structured right now (or in some cases, lack of it). There's been a build up of rust, and we're trying to get things shiny and clean so we can move on and work on improving things.




That's not very good PR or reassuring to those who question Chase's ability based on his past. I'm sorry, but that's what killed FA/FAF for me and many others. But whatever, it's your website.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Chase said:


> *Looks at his To-Do List....*
> 
> _1. Rants and Raves Board_
> 
> Uh... oh, well, um....



Lets just scratch that one off the list before its too late :c


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## Kalmor (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> It's been a very stressful few days. We're trying to get all this stuff stable still. I just really want to stress that we don't want to scare you guys off. Trust me, if we were trying to ban everyone and kill the community, I wouldn't be here anymore. I love being part of the community here with you guys. Just please understand where we're coming from. We really need to tone some of the hostility down, and communication between us and dragoneer and co is really getting better.
> 
> We're sorry if you guys took things personally, but we're doing what we feel is right for everyone. We're not going to ban people for having opinions. Just try not to be so hostile about them :c


This all the way. We're not trying to "censor" you guys. We're just upholding the forum rules against staff callout/disrupting the community like they always have been. Never ever will we infract or ban for having a differing opinion to what the staff have.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Because I know that I can trust Chase. I do not know if Chase plans to stay head of the forums until we can appoint someone better, but we needed somebody who could handle the task at hand. Chase handles Code of Conduct Enforcement on the main site, and due to the circumstances, we needed somebody right away. There's been a disconnect between main site staff and forum mods, and I didn't know anyone with that level of trust on the mod side. We're trying to rectify that, and have expanded our communication for the entire mod to team better re-incorporate the mods and FA staff.
> 
> We're re-examining how all of FA is structured right now (or in some cases, lack of it). There's been a build up of rust, and we're trying to get things shiny and clean so we can move on and work on improving things.



I'm going to be honest and say I'm uneasy about the whole thing but here again, I'm uneasy about change in general so that's just taken with a grain of salt. I like this site. I'm hoping to be a part of the community for a long while.

Hopefully we'll have less communication issues so things actually CAN get better.



Mentova said:


> I stay the hell away from there anyways. Its a wretched hive of scum and villainy >:C


It's true. We kidnap blondes and tie them to railroad tracks, twisting our mustaches and going "Mwahahaha"


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## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

I will say that most parts of FAF is welcoming and for the most part friendly but then I tent to linger mostly on the site descussion, off-topic and the rants and raves board. Rants and Raves is the only place that I regularly see topics that one could precieve as not friendly and thats more because if you want to play in R&R you need a thicker skin anyway.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> That's not very good PR or reassuring to those who question Chase's ability based on his past. I'm sorry, but that's what killed FA/FAF for me and many others. But whatever, it's your website.


I can understand being upset about his past, but you shouldn't assume that the forums are dying because of it. Like I mentioned earlier, if I felt the forum's community was in danger I would've stepped down from being a mod.


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## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I can understand being upset about his past, but you shouldn't assume that the forums are dying because of it. Like I mentioned earlier, if I felt the forum's community was in danger I would've stepped down from being a mod.




It's not that we think the sky is falling or that the forums are suddenly going to burst into flames, it's the fact that double standards are being put into play. It doesn't bode well for me or others knowing that something like that happened. I for one can't support something like that.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> It's not that we think the sky is falling or that the forums are suddenly going to burst into flames, it's the fact that double standards are being put into play. It doesn't bode well for me or others knowing that something like that happened. I for one can't support something like that.



That's your choice then. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if you do not wish to stay around, I'm not going to argue. :c


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> It's not that we think the sky is falling or that the forums are suddenly going to burst into flames, it's the fact that double standards are being put into play. It doesn't bode well for me or others knowing that something like that happened. I for one can't support something like that.



Personally, I trust Mentova on this mainly because I have known him for so long and understand his character. He's a derp but a good guy and well-intentioned.

If he says there's nothing to worry about then I'm inclined to believe him.

We can only wait and see, really.


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## Batty Krueger (Jan 2, 2014)

About fucking time. Some of the users here, including mods, can be total fucking dicks for little to no reason. I wish I could name them but I cant, and I wont. 

There were quite a few new members that had great potential that were chased away like they were harmful pests and  treated with utter disrespect and chastised because they made one tiny mistake regarding the rules/AUP.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

d.batty said:


> About fucking time. Some of the users here, including mods, can be total fucking dicks for little to no reason. I wish I could name them but I cant, and I wont.
> 
> There were quite a few new members that had great potential that were chased away like they were harmful pests and  treated with utter disrespect and chastised because they made one tiny mistake regarding the rules/AUP.



Exactly. It always really upset me when I saw a newbie chased off by angry mobs. That is the big thing that we want to cut down on.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

In the Neer future, we will have nothing but fetish discussion on GD because that's what most of the new members come to talk about anyway.

Or face rig.


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

The problem with this though is that some of it isn't the fault of said hostile members. It's people who come in expecting to get something out of this forum, not getting it, and then throwing a fit calling everyone mean. Blunt and mean aren't the same things. 

Edit: Not to say it doesn't get out of hand but there tends to be two sides to the story. 

This needed to come beforehand too because it seems really unethical and kind of underhanded to just ban a handful of people out of nowhere and then take several days to explain why.


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## Ozriel (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I stay the hell away from there anyways. Its a wretched hive of scum and villainy >:C


I thought that was the Den?


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## Kalmor (Jan 2, 2014)

d.batty said:


> About fucking time. Some of the users here, including mods, can be total fucking dicks for little to no reason. I wish I could name them but I cant, and I wont.
> 
> There were quite a few new members that had great potential that were chased away like they were harmful pests and  treated with utter disrespect and chastised because they made one tiny mistake regarding the rules/AUP.


You can always report staff to neer or chase if you feel that they have acted inappropriately, just fyi.


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## Etiainen (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> ...but that didn't quite go as anticipated.



'Neer, you've run this site long enough to know to not make this kind of mistake.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Ozriel said:


> I thought that was the Den?



No the Den is cum and villainy, not scum and villainy :V


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> In the Neer future, we will have nothing but fetish discussion on GD because that's what most of the new members come to talk about anyway.
> 
> Or face rig.


God no. I'll never let FAF become fetish fun land! D:


Willow said:


> The problem with this though is that some of it isn't the fault of said hostile members. It's people who come in expecting to get something out of this forum, not getting it, and then throwing a fit calling everyone mean. Blunt and mean aren't the same things.
> 
> Edit: Not to say it doesn't get out of hand but there tends to be two sides to the story.
> 
> This needed to come beforehand too because it seems really unethical and kind of underhanded to just ban a handful of people out of nowhere and then take several days to explain why.


Sometimes it us the newbie's fault for acting like an ass with an attitude, but I've seen just as many newbies make a harmless mistake and get dog piled for it. :c

About the bans, I can't, and won't, talk about those because its between them and the staff.


Ozriel said:


> I thought that was the Den?


They are two sides of the same coin. :V


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 2, 2014)

Willow said:


> The problem with this though is that some of it isn't the fault of said hostile members. It's people who come in expecting to get something out of this forum, not getting it, and then throwing a fit calling everyone mean. Blunt and mean aren't the same things.



We understand that time to time people come onto the forums acting in ways that are not consistent with the usual atmosphere, and often completely disregard the established culture or rules. That doesn't justify crucifying a member in a nasty and/or rule breaking manner. If civilly confronting a user in an honest but tactful manner does not lead anywhere, and the person's behavior becomes problematic you can always report the member.

That said we were all new once and we ought to give people a chance.


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## Etiainen (Jan 2, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> ...often completely disregard the established culture...


Since when did FAF ever have an _established culture_? Aside from the whole lingering forum narcissism the neglect has lead to.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> God no. I'll never let FAF become fetish fun land! D:



But then the amount of new threads and posts created per day will be in the single-digit!

also



Dragoneer said:


> we're not going to stop the fantastic discussion on the forums.





Dragoneer said:


> fantastic








Just keep in mind though that there is NO (I repeat, NO) such thing as a perfectly peaceful forum. What keeps people together is that they have a shared objective. When they don't, they will slowly drift apart.

The objective can be a topic of discussion, a mod, or even a certain duty. What you did, was taking your chance at a gamble and hope that a new group will be created that will hopefully, be better than the old one. The old one actually has plenty of fun discussion. They all shared the same objective, to make sure that those fetish monglers  don't ruin the forum.

With them gone, we will either

1) Get a new clean group (lolIdoubtit)
2) Get a fetish group (RIP Pg-13) which will leave and bam, FurAffinity is now a desert.
or
3) A group that will probably jump on one of the mods/staffs and get banned.

It's always either one of them after 3 months maximum. ALWAYS.



Trpdwarf said:


> We understand that time to time people come onto  the forums acting in ways that are not consistent with the usual  atmosphere, and often completely disregard the established culture or  rules. That doesn't justify crucifying a member in a nasty and/or rule  breaking manner. If civilly confronting a user in an honest but tactful  manner does not lead anywhere, and the person's behavior becomes  problematic you can always report the member.
> 
> That said we were all new once and we ought to give people a chance.



When I was new, I acted like an idiot. Got myself the much needed scolding for making that Carrot Thread just for the sake of making one. If I could come back after a scold fest and a thread lock, then other should be able to. We should look for decent members, not spoiled kids that can't even take a single round of scolding.


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## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> We understand that time to time people come onto the forums acting in ways that are not consistent with the usual atmosphere, and often completely disregard the established culture or rules. That doesn't justify crucifying a member in a nasty and/or rule breaking manner. If civilly confronting a user in an honest but tactful manner does not lead anywhere, and the person's behavior becomes problematic you can always report the member.
> 
> That said we were all new once and we ought to give people a chance.



But if they don't take tactful advise on how to behave on the forums its so boring to just report them. Don't you go to a bar to watch the idiots get thrown out too?


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## Ozriel (Jan 2, 2014)

Etiainen said:


> Since when did FAF ever have an _established culture_? Aside from the whole lingering forum narcissism the neglect has lead to.



FAF had a separate culture that developed when people began coming here and talking about the fandom in a critical manner, which places back in the mid-late 200X wouldn't allow because of "trolling". When that happened, the users began to become outspoken against many thing within the fandom that would have a bunch of angry white knights come at you with rope and pitchforks.

2010-2011 was the worse bit, I can recall, which led to many users being overtly aggressive against some of the new members. Now, it has gotten better.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> But then the amount of new threads and posts created per day will be in the single-digit!
> 
> also
> 
> ...



We're not trying to make a new community, or a perfect one. We're just trying to fix some of the common problems here, mainly the hostility. We're not trying to censor discussion, or drive people away, or anything of that sort.


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## Corto (Jan 2, 2014)

Ozriel said:


> 2010-2011 was the worse bit, I can recall, which led to many users being overtly aggressive


It was a fun year.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Ozriel said:


> FAF had a separate culture that developed when people began coming here and talking about the fandom in a critical manner, which places back in the mid-late 200X wouldn't allow because of "trolling". When that happened, the users began to become outspoken against many thing within the fandom that would have a bunch of angry white knights come at you with rope and pitchforks.
> 
> 2010-2011 was the worse bit, I can recall, which led to many users being overtly aggressive against some of the new members. Now, it has gotten better.


Maybe I should pun at the users who are misbehaving.

Can I at least do that? Please? Please? PLEEEEAAAASSE?


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> Maybe I should pun at the users who are misbehaving.
> 
> Can I at least do that? Please? Please? PLEEEEAAAASSE?


Only if you do your homework first! :V


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## Ozriel (Jan 2, 2014)

Corto said:


> It was a fun year.



I gorged myself on souls that year.


Aleu said:


> Maybe I should pun at the users who are misbehaving.
> 
> Can I at least do that? Please? Please? PLEEEEAAAASSE?



Umm...
Okay.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> But if they don't take tactful aadvise on how to behave on the forums its so boring to just report them. Don't you go to a bar to watch the idiots get thrown out too?



It doesn't matter if it isn't as "Fun" to you to report them. It's the appropriate way to handle things. If you want fun go find something...fun to do? We don't need people picking on others like some kid trying to antagonize an animal.


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## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

While it is nice that we finally got an official statement, I am kind of disappointed that it is mentioned on the first page that we are only getting this communication because the users did not calm down and take the change as you hoped they would. 

I am also (to put it politely) more than a bit irritated at the fact that anything even so much as mentioning the change before was harddeleted, with users getting warnings, infractions and bans for asking or for becoming irritated or downright angry at the lack of communication. 

If you guys take anything from this, I hope it is that you will communicate when big changes are made, even if it is just a two-sentence update to be elaborated on later.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> We're not trying to make a new community, or a perfect one. We're just trying to fix some of the common problems here, mainly the hostility. We're not trying to censor discussion, or drive people away, or anything of that sort.



That's the risk you're taking. Hostility will always be present. The one we had, I have to say, when compared to my experience is actually the one that can actually grows. We're lucky we have a group of people that only direct their hostile toward fetish fest people. If they come and act nice or even make one comic, bam, insta-welcome as long as they don't Latex all over the place.

So we got rid of the hostility but now, we have a forum that produce 10 posts and 1 thread daily. Even if the old group was hostile, it was at least active, and that's what lure people in. Activities. By getting rid of the activities to get rid of the hostility, all we have left, is an almost empty class room that people are free to come and go as they please.

If I walk into a room and see it almost empty, I'm going to leave after 5 minutes if no one approaches me. This is the mindset most people will have. No discussion will be censored because it'll be too difficult to make one.

"No one talks to me? Bye"
"My first thread is actually out-of-place and against the rule? Too strict. Bye"
"My first thread is not allowed? Bye"

These are the 3 cases you're going to have to deal with, and number 2 and 3 are going to appear quite often. The old group didn't even have to attack those Steam seller or "Hi, I'm new. Let's talk about what kind of character you want to have sex with. OH crap, locked" to get them to leave.


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Sometimes it us the newbie's fault for acting like an ass with an attitude, but I've seen just as many newbies make a harmless mistake and get dog piled for it. :c


Well lynch mob activity is against the rules and that should be reprimanded because it does get out of hand or goes too far. I guess what I'm referring to is the apparent hostile atmosphere or however it was worded in the OP. Which..forums just sometimes attract assholes but I wouldn't say even the majority of regulars here are really mean. :/

I dunno how else to explain it though. 



> About the bans, I can't, and won't, talk about those because its between them and the staff.


I figured. My problem was with the general disconnect between relaying this message and actually putting it into action. 



Trpdwarf said:


> We understand that time to time people come onto the forums acting in ways that are not consistent with the usual atmosphere, and often completely disregard the established culture or rules. That doesn't justify crucifying a member in a nasty and/or rule breaking manner. If civilly confronting a user in an honest but tactful manner does not lead anywhere, and the person's behavior becomes problematic you can always report the member.


I didn't say it did. 



> That said we were all new once and we ought to give people a chance.


Okay.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Ansitru said:


> While it is nice that we finally got an official statement, I am kind of disappointed that it is mentioned on the first page that we are only getting this communication because the users did not calm down and take the change as you hoped they would.
> 
> I am also (to put it politely) more than a bit irritated at the fact that anything even so much as mentioning the change before was harddeleted, with users getting warnings, infractions and bans for asking or for becoming irritated or downright angry at the lack of communication.
> 
> If you guys take anything from this, I hope it is that you will communicate when big changes are made, even if it is just a two-sentence update to be elaborated on later.



As far as I know the announcement was going to be posted even if things calmed down.

And while things were a bit heavy handed at first, a lot of the posts that were deleted were rather inflammatory and offensive, which we've never tolerated.


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## Littlerock (Jan 2, 2014)

Because stirring up a ruckus within the staff hierarchy with no warning, making questionable choices regarding introducing new staff, banning regular users and passing out infractions for petty reasons, and then waiting several days to leak out a feeble explanation that barely serves to genuinely cover any of the current issue is supposed to reassure the remaining few regulars here that we're not being driven away? _Really?_

I can't honestly believe any of that, and it bothers me that key opinions here have been conveniently preemptively silenced. Under current rule, is't a damn miracle I haven't been banned yet as it is. No loss if I am, if this is the way things are to stay.


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## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> As far as I know the announcement was going to be posted even if things calmed down.
> 
> And while things were a bit heavy handed at first, a lot of the posts that were deleted were rather inflammatory and offensive, which we've never tolerated.



Now I wish I could link to the first thread an comments I made which were polite, even if they had an undertone of slight irritation. Of course, I can not as they were harddeleted. 

It is kind of easy to say that all action taken was necessary when everything pertaining to it has been conveniently harddeleted. Just saying. Yes some comments may have been inflammatory, but not *all*.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> That's the risk you're taking. Hostility will always be present. The one we had, I have to say, when compared to my experience is actually the one that can actually grows. We're lucky we have a group of people that only direct their hostile toward fetish fest people. If they come and act nice or even make one comic, bam, insta-welcome as long as they don't Latex all over the place.
> 
> So we got rid of the hostility but now, we have a forum that produce 10 posts and 1 thread daily. Even if the old group was hostile, it was at least active, and that's what lure people in. Activities. By getting rid of the activities to get rid of the hostility, all we have left, is an almost empty class room that people are free to come and go as they please.
> 
> ...



The forum isn't dead. I see plenty of new posts daily.  Certainly more than 10 posts a day. And the hostility wasn't just towards the "fetish fest" people. 

I can totally understand why someone would dislike these changes, and I apologize. These changes had to have happened eventually though. Its for the best.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Littlerock said:


> Because stirring up a ruckus within the staff hierarchy with no warning, making questionable choices regarding introducing new staff, banning regular users and passing out infractions for petty reasons, and then waiting several days to leak out a feeble explanation that barely serves to genuinely cover any of the current issue is supposed to reassure the remaining few regulars here that we're not being driven away? _Really?_
> 
> I can't honestly believe any of that, and it bothers me that key opinions here have been conveniently preemptively silenced. Under current rule, is't a damn miracle I haven't been banned yet as it is. No loss if I am, if this is the way things are to stay.


It is what it is, really.

I mean, we can't change the past. If things DO turn out for the worst then I'm sure there'll be a far larger exodus than what I've seen. Bans included. All we can do is hold them to their word.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Littlerock said:


> Because stirring up a ruckus within the staff hierarchy with no warning, making questionable choices regarding introducing new staff, banning regular users and passing out infractions for petty reasons, and then waiting several days to leak out a feeble explanation that barely serves to genuinely cover any of the current issue is supposed to reassure the remaining few regulars here that we're not being driven away? _Really?_
> 
> I can't honestly believe any of that, and it bothers me that key opinions here have been conveniently preemptively silenced. Under current rule, is't a damn miracle I haven't been banned yet as it is. No loss if I am, if this is the way things are to stay.



As far as I know, nobody has been infracted for petty reasons. People _have_ been infracted for being overly hostile and angry, however. Which is how things have always been.

Nobody is, or has been banned for having opinions. However, if you act like an ass about it, action might be taken.


Ansitru said:


> Now I wish I could link to the first thread an comments I made which were polite, even if they had an undertone of slight irritation. Of course, I can not as they were harddeleted.
> 
> It is kind of easy to say that all action taken was necessary when everything pertaining to it has been conveniently harddeleted. Just saying. Yes some comments may have been inflammatory, but not *all*.


Like I said, people were a bit heavy handed at first. I don't necessarily agree with how that was handled, but a lot of the posts were pretty hostile and deserved to be removed and infracted.


----------



## Littlerock (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> It is what it is, really.
> 
> I mean, we can't change the past. If things DO turn out for the worst then I'm sure there'll be a far larger exodus than what I've seen. Bans included. All we can do is hold them to their word.



Frankly, given the current situation, and recent method of dealing with things, I'm not prepared to hold anyone to their word. It's like asking the same guy thrice to hold your beer when he's pissed in it the first two times already.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> It is what it is, really.
> 
> I mean, we can't change the past. If things DO turn out for the worst then I'm sure there'll be a far larger exodus than what I've seen. Bans included. All we can do is hold them to their word.




Things like this have happened before. Plenty of times. There's so much dust under the rug that it's no mystery as to how so much of that dust has found its way into the air.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Littlerock said:


> Frankly, given the current situation, and recent method of dealing with things, I'm not prepared to hold anyone to their word. It's like asking the same guy thrice to hold your beer when he's pissed in it the first two times already.



I'm not a liar. I'm a man of my word. Everything I've said, I've been sincere about.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> The forum isn't dead. I see plenty of new posts daily.  Certainly more than 10 posts a day. And the hostility wasn't just towards the "fetish fest" people.
> 
> I can totally understand why someone would dislike these changes, and I apologize. These changes had to have happened eventually though. Its for the best.



I dislike this kind of changes because it happened once to me on another forum, and it KILLED (yes, killed) the forum.

It had like 30+ interesting people.
Then 2 new mods were hired. 1 was known to only acted nice so he could get a mod position. 1 was an asshole who only got the position because he was with the staff friend.

It was a shitstorm. One of the staff even logged on on SATURDAY (no work) just to calm everyone down. Sadly, it shifted and the "Banana joke" got over half of the interesting ban and the new mods were removed. Like, the mod freaking banned you for questioning the ban of other members, the mods selection or for saying BANANA because it was a "troll attempt."

Although it ended just that with all the account unbanned, no one returned. From having new posts and threads to read everyday, the first page required at least 3 days for something to go to the second page, assuming no one necroforthelol.

Then they decided to hire new mods again to "reform the place" and all the interesting people left. Only those who still play the game stayed. Unless it's something like Christmas, the first page NEVER move. The new mods were like "We actually have lots of people posting daily" and the admin backed that up but the thing is, there was NO interesting posts whatsoever. It's always "Tell me about yourself, but no one will really it" kind of threads that only get posts. 

New people joined. They make their intro. They leave. That's it. no new thread. Post count : Maximum of 10.

This is the kind of reform that I'm afraid FA is going through.* It's the exact same pattern.* People think it's good but in actuality, it's not. It's just freezing the forum in a state that, although is a lot easier to control, will never have any new development going. Not to mention this forums DOES NOT allow random pointless discussion. The only reason that place still has new thread is because people can make 5 different 0 post thread just to say hi. This place locks everything that goes in the sticky or has no solid topic. It's going to be hard for new people to get used to.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

The trouble is that at this point, you're pretty much taking a gamble by even posting something so much as hinting at  criticism of the staff and the way things are handled. 

Because while one mod may also disagree with the way things are being handled and be lenient on you with a warning, another mod may be eager to whack you with the hammer of doom for all he can. There's inconsistency and quite frankly, with every post I make I'm half-expecting for it to be deleted and to get infracted if the contents of that post are not just mindless small talk. This is the current atmosphere you are allowing and I dislike it intensely.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Littlerock said:


> Frankly, given the current situation, and recent method of dealing with things, I'm not prepared to hold anyone to their word. It's like asking the same guy thrice to hold your beer when he's pissed in it the first two times already.


That's fine. Like I said I've known Mentova for a while and I trust him not to give my beer to the guy that will piss in it.



Toshabi said:


> Things like this have happened before. Plenty of times. There's so much dust under the rug that it's no mystery as to how so much of that dust has found its way into the air.


I'm trying to be optimistic :c


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> I dislike this kind of changes because it happened once to me on another forum, and it KILLED (yes, killed) the forum.
> 
> It had like 30+ interesting people.
> Then 2 new mods were hired. 1 was known to only acted nice so he could get a mod position. 1 was an asshole who only got the position because he was with the staff friend.
> ...



Like I've mentioned, if I felt the forums community was in grave danger, I would've stepped down. I care for the community here. I don't want to see it become a wasteland. That being said, I also feel that some changes need to be made. I don't feel like these changes will kill the community.



Ansitru said:


> The trouble is that at this point, you're pretty  much taking a gamble by even posting something so much as hinting at   criticism of the staff and the way things are handled.
> 
> Because while one mod may also disagree with the way things are being  handled and be lenient on you with a warning, another mod may be eager  to whack you with the hammer of doom for all he can. There's  inconsistency and quite frankly, with every post I make I'm  half-expecting for it to be deleted and to get infracted if the contents  of that post are not just mindless small talk. This is the current  atmosphere you are allowing and I dislike it intensely.


Nobody has been banned for having opinions, or criticizing the staff. We're open to criticism. Aleu didn't get banned when she asked why chase was put in charge. 

The problem is the people who have had action taken against them haven't posted their thoughts in a tactful way. Screaming and calling everyone names is not appropriate.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> I'm trying to be optimistic :c



After 2010, I said "Hey, they said they were sorry". 


Welcome to 2013/14.


----------



## Littlerock (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I'm not a liar. I'm a man of my word. Everything I've said, I've been sincere about.



I know you, I like you, and I trust you, and I honestly think that you must be in the dark about some of the things that have been happening here to have this kind of attitude about it.
This, of course, does nothing to quell my disease regarding the situation.


Mentova said:


> As far as I know, nobody has been infracted for petty reasons. People _have_ been infracted for being overly hostile and angry, however. Which is how things have always been.
> 
> Nobody is, or has been banned for having opinions. However, if you act like an ass about it, action might be taken.
> 
> Like I said, people were a bit heavy handed at first. I don't necessarily agree with how that was handled, but a lot of the posts were pretty hostile and deserved to be removed and infracted.



The negotiable bar of what is reasonable was dropped suddenly, and without warning. From what I've seen, posts have not significantly upped in hostility; but the moderation of these types of posts has. Granted there have been overly hostile posts in the few days, but the majority of bans and deletes have been performed in such a way that demonizes the user's actions while leaving everyone else to think the worst. This does jack all for PR.


----------



## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

Unfortunately, I guess call outs aren't allowed because I would have made a comparison. Then again the person I'm referring to is 1. banned (apparently?) and 2. not a mod anymore. 



Mentova said:


> I'm not a liar. I'm a man of my word. Everything I've said, I've been sincere about.


I don't doubt _you're_ being sincere. Or any of the other mods everyone's typically used to seeing. It's the ones we're not seeing I guess that makes this situation really unsettling for some.


----------



## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Never ever will we infract or ban for having a differing opinion to what the staff have.



Wow really?

That's not my experience with dealing with Chase.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Littlerock said:


> I know you, I like you, and I trust you, and I honestly think that you must be in the dark about some of the things that have been happening here to have this kind of attitude about it.
> This, of course, does nothing to quell my disease regarding the situation.
> 
> 
> The negotiable bar of what is reasonable was dropped suddenly, and without warning. From what I've seen, posts have not significantly upped in hostility; but the moderation of these types of posts has. Granted there have been overly hostile posts in the few days, but the majority of bans and deletes have been performed in such a way that demonizes the user's actions while leaving everyone else to think the worst. This does jack all for PR.


I might not be aware of _everything_ that's been going on, but I do know a lot of people have been over reacting, or jumping to conclusions. A lot of the really bad stuff was flat out deleted (and some of the not so bad stuff, which is why I felt people were a bit heavy handed) but as far as I know nobody has been infracted for anything unfair. Perhaps some of the freaking out is justified as things have been extremely sudden (even for us), but I promise that I won't let the forums become a happy hugbox nazi wasteland. :c

PS: if someone was hit with an infraction that they really do feel was unfair, PM me about it and I'll take a look.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Like I've mentioned, if I felt the forums community was in grave danger, I would've stepped down. I care for the community here. I don't want to see it become a wasteland. That being said, I also feel that some changes need to be made. I don't feel like these changes will kill the community.
> 
> 
> Nobody has been banned for having opinions, or criticizing the staff. We're open to criticism. Aleu didn't get banned when she asked why chase was put in charge.
> ...



And again I _would_ like to point to my posts and ask where exactly I was supposedly screaming or using ad hominems, but. Y'know.

Edit to add: I am aware I am starting to sound annoyed and I will do my best to keep my posts as neutral and polite as possible. But the recent changes are not some that I agree with.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> The problem is the people who have had action taken against them haven't posted their thoughts in a tactful way. Screaming and calling everyone names is not appropriate.



I would like to build on this and remind the users about something. When a person has infractions that are active it goes up to 3 before something happens. 3 and After 3, the system automatically temp bans the person. Off and on I've seen people really get upset because they think that staff here suspended a person over a single thing. They see the last post or where the person last was, and they sometimes assume "That" is the entire reason why a person has been suspended/perm banned. People should stop and think before making such assumptions. You don't know what a persons current infraction number is at. That is between staff and user, that is private.

A person really really really has to draw a horrible bad line in order to be removed for just one thing, and even that is rare. If a person is suspended/perm banned it is usually after a build up of previous activities. Please keep that in mind before assuming staff are suspending people left and right over what ever it is you perceive.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Ansitru said:


> And again I _would_ like to point to my posts and ask where exactly I was supposedly screaming or using ad hominems, but. Y'know.
> 
> Edit to add: I am aware I am starting to sound annoyed and I will do my best to keep my posts as neutral and polite as possible. But the recent changes are not some that I agree with.


I went and looked at your thread. It was probably deleted because of reynard posting about his removal. I'm not sure if that is something I agree with, but I understand why.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I went and looked at your thread. It was probably deleted because of reynard posting about his removal. I'm not sure if that is something I agree with, but I understand why.



Which ties in with the first post I made I suppose. 
And at the risk of getting slapped for comparing FA to deviantART: they release journals on set times with changes that have been made, changes that are being looked at an community input. Basically, they have a strong link of communication with their use base, even when big changes are being made, something that is severely lacking on FA/F. When big changes are being made, that is not an excuse to put off informing the community because your busy with the change, but it is a _reason_ to inform the community because something is about to change and people like to be in the know even if only vaguely. 

No one is asking for detailed plans but updates are a good thing. Which I also mentioned before this update, but that comment also mysteriously vanished.


----------



## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> That's fine. Like I said I've known Mentova for a while and I trust him not to give my beer to the guy that will piss in it.



Except the entire bar is fitted with piss sprinklers. Even if the third person doesn't piss in it, it'll get filled with generalised airborne piss.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Ansitru said:


> Which ties in with the first post I made I suppose.
> And at the risk of getting slapped for comparing FA to deviantART: they release journals on set times with changes that have been made, changes that are being looked at an community input. Basically, they have a strong link of communication with their use base, even when big changes are being made, something that is severely lacking on FA/F. When big changes are being made, that is not an excuse to put off informing the community because your busy with the change, but it is a _reason_ to inform the community because something is about to change and people like to be in the know even if only vaguely.
> 
> No one is asking for detailed plans but updates are a good thing. Which I also mentioned before this update, but that comment also mysteriously vanished.


This is something we've been working on. Personally I wish that we got this announcement out sooner, but its been chaotic and stressful.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> Except the entire bar is fitted with piss sprinklers. Even if the third person doesn't piss in it, it'll get filled with generalised airborne piss.



Well then that means everyone's taking the piss.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> Except the entire bar is fitted with piss sprinklers. Even if the third person doesn't piss in it, it'll get filled with generalised airborne piss.





Aleu said:


> Well then that means everyone's taking the piss.



How did you know that was my fetish? :c


----------



## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> I would like to build on this and remind the users about something. When a person has infractions that are active it goes up to 3 before something happens. 3 and After 3, the system automatically temp bans the person. Off and on I've seen people really get upset because they think that staff here suspended a person over a single thing. They see the last post or where the person last was, and they sometimes assume "That" is the entire reason why a person has been suspended/perm banned. People should stop and think before making such assumptions. You don't know what a persons current infraction number is at. That is between staff and user, that is private.
> 
> A person really really really has to draw a horrible bad line in order to be removed for just one thing, and even that is rare. If a person is suspended/perm banned it is usually after a build up of previous activities. Please keep that in mind before assuming staff are suspending people left and right over what ever it is you perceive.



If that is the case then it needs to be made public knowledge as to what leads to a like that. If people don't know that three infractions leads to a temporary ban then they are going to assume its the work of the mods.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> How did you know that was my fetish? :c



Everything is your fetish as long as you're getting boned :V


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> If that is the case then it needs to be made public knowledge as to what leads to a like that. If people don't know that three infractions leads to a temporary ban then they are going to assume its the work of the mods.


It says so in the rules, which people need to read :/


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## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

We need to stop talking about fetishes and get back to how fucking retarded this whole situation is.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> We need to stop talking about fetishes and get back to how fucking retarded this whole situation is.


Hey, you're the guy who said we all drink piss. :V


----------



## Dragoneer (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Hey, you're the guy who said we all drink piss. :V


On a list of things I want to read on a given day I can assure you this will never be one. Let's try to steer this back on track, lest I start handing out Depends.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> If that is the case then it needs to be made public knowledge as to what leads to a like that. If people don't know that three infractions leads to a temporary ban then they are going to assume its the work of the mods.



Well it is in our rules that can be accessed from that yellow area at the top of the page.

"The staff can, at it's discretion, issue warnings and infraction points for breaking the rules or generally disrupting the community. Most infractions are worth 1 point, though serious/repeated offenses are worth more. *Gathering 3 points mean an automatic temporary ban from the forums*, and 3 temporary bans mean a permanent ban. If upon returning from a temporary ban you still have active infractions points from before, you may contact a staff member to have them removed (at the staff's discretion)."


----------



## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> If that is the case then it needs to be made public knowledge as to what leads to a like that. If people don't know that three infractions leads to a temporary ban then they are going to assume its the work of the mods.


It is though.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> On a list of things I want to read on a given day I can assure you this will never be one. Let's try to steer this back on track, lest I start handing out Depends.



So you'll be quite Piche'd off?

HUEHUE ok ok I'll stop.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> This is something we've been working on. Personally I wish that we got this announcement out sooner, but its been chaotic and stressful.




So making something like this



Dragoneer said:


> As many of you know we recently made changes to the FA Forums between moderators and the forum heirarchy. Within the past year the number of complaints and concerns we've received regarding the forums has gone up exponentially -- reports of aggressive staff, overly hostile users and a general feeling of unease from new users. Quite a few of these issues were brought up by moderators themselves.
> 
> Chase has been made moderator lead in the mean time while we work on restructuring both the forum moderators and main site admins. Our goal is to utilize the forums more for FA news and support, to properly restructure how we interact with users, increase communication and be more visible. We can not do that if users do not feel welcomed on the forum, where they're insulted or made to feel unwelcome.
> 
> ...



took the entire week to formulate? I think addressing the problem from the get-go would've been the more appropriate action rather than to slap people in the face for saying "wtf". You know this community is explosive. You know how people over react on here. But rather than try to explain anything, users who were being volatile weren't given a warning, their threads weren't locked with an explanation, they were just outright banned and nuked. I strongly believe this is simply because Chase's very very controversial past was brought into question. 


To the spectator who normally gets amusement from this all, it looks more like a cover up for Chase's past rather than you actually addressing the problems here. It simply made things worse when a simple 5-10 minute post would've made everything that much easier. You would've figure that "Waiting till things calmed down" wouldn't have worked, given that it hasn't worked the thousands of other times a problem arises on this site.


----------



## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> It says so in the rules, which people need to read :/



Derp, need to read beyond the does and don't.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

And to add onto what I have previously said: I am someone who gets straight to the point about things. 
I dislike waffling to make the post seem nicer. If my bluntness was perceived as inflammatory then that is quite disheartening but rest assure I have found places where I can post and talk to my friends without constantly worrying about whether or not my post is tip-toeing the line of "today's rules to handle the shitstorm". 

And I think it may be hindsight 20/20 for FAF as I've already been noticing a lack in interesting new threads. 
If that changes: good. But I'm not holding my breath, knowing of all the people that were chased away or put off of using the site.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

thoron said:


> Derp, need to read beyond the does and don't.



To be fair, no one really reads the rules anymore.


----------



## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

You know you've _really_ fucked something up when Toshabi is telling you off and getting angry about it.



Aleu said:


> To be fair, no one really reads the rules anymore.



"We've updated the forum rules!"

Well great. Why don't you fucking highlight exactly what you've changed, because we haven't got photographic memories, so there's no way any fucker can spot whats been changed, removed or added.

Thats why I stopped reading updated forum rules. Because it changes and they don't say what they changed.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> So making something like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It probably should've been posted earlier. I said that myself earlier. The users being volatile about it shouldn't have needed to be warned. They _know_ not to act like that. It says so right in the rules. Harassment against staff has never been tolerated. I'm honestly a bit confused why people were surprised that insulting people over a staff member that they dislike ended in infractions and temp bans.


----------



## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> It probably should've been posted earlier. I said that myself earlier. The users being volatile about it shouldn't have needed to be warned. They _know_ not to act like that. It says so right in the rules. Harassment against staff has never been tolerated. I'm honestly a bit confused why people were surprised that insulting people over a staff member that they dislike ended in infractions and temp bans.



So what you are saying is that users shouldn't be stabbing each other in the back?


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Except some people got banned for simply trying to poke fun at the questionable past of the new head-admin out of sheer surprise that they chose him to lead the forums, given how people here react to that sort of thing if it were to come from any other user. Or do those bans fall under "discussion of things against the law"?

In which case: colour me shocked at the appointment, then.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> So what you are saying is that users shouldn't be stabbing each other in the back?



No, I'm saying that people were being assholes, knew better than to be assholes, and I'm confused as to why they are surprised action was taken against them.



Ansitru said:


> Except some people got banned for simply trying  to poke fun at the questionable past of the new head-admin out of sheer  surprise that they chose him to lead the forums, given how people here  react to that sort of thing if it were to come from any other user. Or  do those bans fall under "discussion of things against the law"?
> 
> In which case: colour me shocked at the appointment, then.


I didn't see anyone "poking fun" at the staff. I saw people name calling and being aggressive. :/


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> You know you've _really_ fucked something up when Toshabi is telling you off and getting angry about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That I did have a problem with.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> It probably should've been posted earlier. I said that myself earlier. The users being volatile about it shouldn't have needed to be warned. They _know_ not to act like that. It says so right in the rules. Harassment against staff has never been tolerated. I'm honestly a bit confused why people were surprised that insulting people over a staff member that they dislike ended in infractions and temp bans.




Try using some gdamn perspective: 

1. 3 legendary staff members were cut (QTMelon, Nei, MLR).
2. A well known zoop was appointed to admin of FA/FAF as community manager.


And this all goes without explanation. Now tell me; Did you honest to god think this would sit well with some users who (just for the sake of giving Chase the benefit of the doubt, let's pretend they were just rumors) think the rumors regarding option 2 are true? And who honestly liked said mods who were suddenly diced from the picture without a trace? 


And did you NOT think that said leaks of what happened would find their ways onto other sites? Do you think if said users read that info they MIGHT be a little pissed off? 


"But but but! They shouldn't act angry, cause they know better >:c"


Bull-fucking-shit, Mints. Maybe if you'd taken the 5 minutes to think "Hey! Maybe we should have an explanation for our actions before we execute them just to make things clear for the people it will affect" then a lot of this shit wouldn't have happened. And don't blame the users for feeling that way when


[INCOMING SPOILERS]YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GULL TO PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR OWN WEBSITE TO ITS USER[/spoiler]


So don't you DARE fucking blame the users for the way they acted when you guys fucked up first with your intel. I would be pissed off too if all I had to go off on was from what was provided by the people you axed.


----------



## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> No, I'm saying that people were being assholes, knew better than to be assholes, and I'm confused as to why they are surprised action was taken against them.



Because it's an entirely asshole situation?

First let's unceremoniously can half the admin team, install a new Supreme Leader, quash any talks of what the fuck is going on and refuse to talk about it for a week while quickly shutting down any and all discussions and stopping the affected ex-admins to say their piece. Shut down all media, make sure nobody is allowed to talk about it, infract people who question things.

And then sit back and wonder why people are annoyed?

Actually, let's just condense this shit.

The events that lead to this was full of assholes, acting like assholes.

The admins and moderators are supposed to be the people who know what they are doing, the role models for the forum plebs. So apparently, we were just playing follow the motherfucking leader here.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> No, I'm saying that people were being assholes, knew better than to be assholes, and I'm confused as to why they are surprised action was taken against them.
> 
> 
> I didn't see anyone "poking fun" at the staff. I saw people name calling and being aggressive. :/



I would repeat the posts, but I'm not sure if that would get me infracted or not. 
Things like "we'll one mod does have experience with animals" is not what I would call a malicious call-out. In bad taste according to the person it is referring to, maybe. But it's not the same as saying, say, "MOD X is a degenerate who likes defiling my freshly cleaned laundry".


----------



## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

I know everyone is pissed but I'd like to say that everything y'all are pointing has probably already been said to them.

Communication is the single most important thing here. Let's not antagonize them and start pointing fingers because y'all know it won't go anywhere. People get defensive and then more accusations, more defenses, yadda  yadda yadda bans, locked.


----------



## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

So wait, when did this actually happen? 

Because I left for a few days and then came back to this. Which kind of makes the situation seem even more underhanded and just that more unethical. 



Ansitru said:


> I would repeat the posts, but I'm not sure if that would get me infracted or not.
> Things like "we'll one mod does have experience with animals" is not what I would call a malicious call-out. In bad taste according to the person it is referring to, maybe. But it's not the same as saying, say, "MOD X is a degenerate who likes defiling my freshly cleaned laundry".


Weird thing is..I vaguely remember this joke being made some time ago (at the very least two or three years ago) and yet this didn't call for giving people the boot. People have said worse about the site and the owner yet it's never warranted this. 

But I guess that just goes back to "well you don't know the whole story".


----------



## Chase (Jan 2, 2014)

Ultimately, I am here to bring Fur Affinity and the Fur Affinity Forums together in unity. The forums have been neglected and left to their own devices far too long, and as we work to better Fur Affinity, the forums should not be left in the cold. 


I understand the concern some members have about opinions and whether or not this forum will be turned into a so-called hug box due to this unity. I am not interested in censoring dissenting opinions, discussions, or even rude comments, unless it violates our rules and standards here.


Another issue I have noted was about staff changes. Please understand that staff changes are a private matter, which is why some users were asked to discontinue such discussions, and in some cases, conspiracies. Furthermore, there was no mass demotion. There were some adjustments made with the permissions system and there may be others. I know that communication is a concern, and some users would like to be privy of these changes, why they were made, etc. and we will make posts concerning them when we feel it is appropriate to do so. Perhaps these recent announcements *weren't* as appropriately timed as we would have liked, and it's something we will work on.


Some of you don't know me, and therefore don't trust me. I understand that you would be more comfortable with a Lead that you are more familiar with. There has been some question concerning my abilities; however, allow me to assure you that I am perfectly competent leading the staff for this board. I have approximately 5 years of experience with Fur Affinity as an Administrator, managing the Con Store and Artist Alley at FA:U, and as the Lead Admin for Code of Conduct Enforcement for almost a year. I am experienced with vBulletin, and I can keep going on, but I'll can it so I don't bore you all to tears. All of this looks good on paper, but there is no way to know that I won't start the countdown to the apocalypse, right? The same could be said of anyone else; however, I will promise you to take responsibility for my leadership, my staff, and whatever changes are to come. The forums are part of my charge now and I want them to be successful.


I know some of you dislike the current situation and I get that some of you aren't my biggest fans (an understatement) and as stated feel that my so-called past is "very, very controversial" (an overstatement); however, we are each responsible for our own actions. Let's try to keep this all civil, please.


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## Smelge (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok, let's calm it down because it's fucking 4:30am and I want to go to bed.

There's a shitload of talk in here about how the admin team want to make FAF a friendlier, nicer and altogether fluffier place where we can fucking frolic or some shit. There's the obviuos Bad Egg users that bring the place down, etc, etc.

The thing is, the guy appointed to oversee the new regime has a fuckton of controversy surrounding him. True or false allegations and rumours, it doesn't matter either way because they are still there. Whatever you do, there is no way to win this. You've made a horrible decision, people have heard the rumours, they know stuff. And now they're going to assume the worst about this place, because it's being headed by him.

Now, I'm going to bed. Please leave my inevitable ban in the mailbox.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> Try using some gdamn perspective:
> 
> 1. 3 legendary staff members were cut (QTMelon, Nei, MLR).
> 2. A well known zoop was appointed to admin of FA/FAF as community manager.
> ...


You guys don't need to know every tiny detail of what goes on with the staff. We didn't post announcements about who people were removed because we didn't want to air their dirty laundry out for everyone to see. The problems were between them and dragoneer/the staff. Its the same reason why we don't go around telling people why someone was banned.It really isn't any of your business. 

Also, it really doesn't matter if people are mad because they didn't know what happened right away. Its no excuse to act like an asshole, and its kind of ridiculous that you're justifying that.

In regards to chase and his history, its not my place to comment on that.



Ansitru said:


> I would repeat the posts, but I'm not sure if that would get me infracted or not.
> Things like "we'll one mod does have experience with animals" is not what I would call a malicious call-out. In bad taste according to the person it is referring to, maybe. But it's not the same as saying, say, "MOD X is a degenerate who likes defiling my freshly cleaned laundry".



The people who posted things like that should've realized that it was in incredibly bad taste especially during all this stressful stuff. To me, they seemed like they were looking for trouble.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

We don't need to know "every detail". It just seems to me that the mod team thinks that "updates" means "juicy secrets". No. A simple "Hey, changes in mod team are being made. More at 11" would suffice.

I mean, it kinda is our business to know that changes are being made because it DOES affect the users. We are under new leadership now. We should have at the very least been informed of that.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 2, 2014)

Smelge said:


> Because it's an entirely asshole situation?
> 
> First let's unceremoniously can half the admin team, install a new Supreme Leader, quash any talks of what the fuck is going on and refuse to talk about it for a week while quickly shutting down any and all discussions and stopping the affected ex-admins to say their piece. Shut down all media, make sure nobody is allowed to talk about it, infract people who question things.
> 
> ...



The event that has led to this was internal to begin with between staff. That is were professionally it should stay. I don't see how we were being assholes sitting there and _not_ taking something internal and making it a public spectacle. As has been said multiple times to people who refused to play nice, it was an internal issue. Now recall that this is riding off of the last site discussion blow up where any attempt to talk with the community led to people going absolutely nuts.

So we took a few days to sit down and iron out what we are going to do next. I can almost guarantee if we had posted then and there things would still have gone completely out of control and we would have had to hand out warnings, infractions, and bans. This is something that really needs to change. If the community wants the people in charge to actually talk to them, they also need to up their game in how they react.


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## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> You guys don't need to know every tiny detail of what goes on with the staff. We didn't post announcements about who people were removed because we didn't want to air their dirty laundry out for everyone to see. The problems were between them and dragoneer/the staff. Its the same reason why we don't go around telling people why someone was banned.It really isn't any of your business.
> 
> Also, it really doesn't matter if people are mad because they didn't know what happened right away. Its no excuse to act like an asshole, and its kind of ridiculous that you're justifying that.
> 
> ...



And again I'll point to deviantArt where a post announcing a volunteer is made, as well as a post announcing when that volunteer's time is up, for whatever reason that may be. It isn't a long announcement, just a simple "thank you for your services", pretty cut & dry, no drama whatsoever.

And at the risk of kicking the hornets nest: appointing someone like that, knowing how caustic the community already reacts to regular users like that... Bad move, really.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Aleu said:


> We don't need to know "every detail". It just seems to me that the mod team thinks that "updates" means "juicy secrets". No. A simple "Hey, changes in mod team are being made. More at 11" would suffice.



People want the juicy secrets though. I have a hunch that a simple post like that would've been met with people complaining that they need to know why. Just like how whenever someone gets a ban people freak out and want to know why and assume it was unfair.


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## Aleu (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> People want the juicy secrets though. I have a hunch that a simple post like that would've been met with people complaining that they need to know why. Just like how whenever someone gets a ban people freak out and want to know why and assume it was unfair.



Better people ask than rather assume. I think all these assumptions have done worse for the image than being straight with us.


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## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> In regards to chase and his history, its not my place to comment on that.




That's the goddam problem. A controversial furry thrown in a position of power. People want to know why. And don't act like people can't easily access those damn screen caps either that led to the controversy initially or that people simply forgot what happened in 2010. That's what caused this whole shit-spiral to begin with. That's exactly why people are flipping their shit. An explanation for it would've created a thread to discuss it. Less infracs would've happened. Less bans would've happened. More discussion and communication would've happened. Instead, it was all done behind the scenes. BOOM! Chase promoted to forum person goer thing. Where's the announcement? Why wasn't this even introduced to the forum community as a whole?

Just... and the fact you can't see this and would rather blame the users is what's most upsetting. Where they wrong? Yes! But they had grounds given to them by the staff to cause this whole situation to begin with. So much damage control could've happened if you simply made this goddam thread 1 week ago. But hey, I guess with all the chaos and stress you're facing right now, it couldn't have happened at an earlier time.




Mentova said:


> People want the juicy secrets though. I have a hunch that a simple post like that would've been met with people complaining that they need to know why. Just like how whenever someone gets a ban people freak out and want to know why and assume it was unfair.



#AssumptionsAboutAssumptions


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

Chase said:


> Another issue I have noted was about staff changes. Please understand that staff changes are a private matter, which is why some users were asked to discontinue such discussions, and in some cases, conspiracies.


Sure staff changes happen but to just take three people everyone's familiar with off the team and then say it's a private matter as to _why_ they're gone isn't good. 

You guys might know and I'm guessing it was a mutual agreement but even as a mutual agreement, you should offer at least _some_ reason as to the change *to the people you're supposed to be looking over*.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Chase said:


> Ultimately, I am here to bring Fur Affinity and the Fur Affinity Forums together in unity. The forums have been neglected and left to their own devices far too long, and as we work to better Fur Affinity, the forums should not be left in the cold.



Considering the state of FA, I doubt you will ever be able to unite the forum and the art site together. Remember that FA is treated as a site purely for making money. No one really comes to chat or anything. They just want to log on, post a journal about commission and maybe pay for a quick advertisement or two and be off. Only when do they have something to upload or do they need more money will they come back.

Why would a porn/fetish artist ever come on a forum that is PG-13? Some may view it but just by asking that question, you can pretty much cut 90% of the user base from the forum.


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## thoron (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> People want the juicy secrets though. I have a hunch that a simple post like that would've been met with people complaining that they need to know why. Just like how whenever someone gets a ban people freak out and want to know why and assume it was unfair.



Believe it or not it wouldn't. At most it would likely spark a descussion as to who the new mods would be.


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## BRN (Jan 2, 2014)

Changes seem positive. Change without explication is frustrating but I don't think these changes themselves were anything but belated. 

Much happy. Very satisfy. Glad to see user experience being re prioritised.


As for moderators being shifted about, we've had moderators who have done a good job, and I think we'll continue to get that experience. That's all I need to see to be content.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> That's the goddam problem. A controversial furry thrown in a position of power. People want to know why. And don't act like people can't easily access those damn screen caps either that led to the controversy initially or that people simply forgot what happened in 2010. That's what caused this whole shit-spiral to begin with. That's exactly why people are flipping their shit. An explanation for it would've created a thread to discuss it. Less infracs would've happened. Less bans would've happened. More discussion and communication would've happened. Instead, it was all done behind the scenes. BOOM! Chase promoted to forum person goer thing. Where's the announcement? Why wasn't this even introduced to the forum community as a whole?
> 
> Just... and the fact you can't see this and would rather blame the users is what's most upsetting. Where they wrong? Yes! But they had grounds given to them by the staff to cause this whole situation to begin with. So much damage control could've happened if you simply made this goddam thread 1 week ago. But hey, I guess with all the chaos and stress you're facing right now, it couldn't have happened at an earlier time.
> 
> ...



Like I've said multiple times, I totally agree that we should've had an announcement out sooner, and I understand if people are upset with chase's past.

However, that does not mean its ok for people to harass the staff and be assholes. They should've known better than to act like that. If the people upset with chase had more tact when addressing their concerns, we probably wouldn't have as much of this crazy drama going on currently.



Zeitzbach said:


> Considering the state of FA, I doubt you will  ever be able to unite the forum and the art site together. Remember that  FA is treated as a site purely for making money. No one really comes to  chat or anything. They just want to log on, post a journal about  commission and maybe pay for a quick advertisement or two and be off.  Only when do they have something to upload or do they need more money  will they come back.
> 
> Why would a porn/fetish artist ever come on a forum that is PG-13? Some  may view it but just by asking that question, you can pretty much cut  90% of the user base from the forum.


This isn't true. There are plenty of communities on FA. I've even met some good friends through the mainsite.


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## Ansitru (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> People want the juicy secrets though. I have a hunch that a simple post like that would've been met with people complaining that they need to know why. Just like how whenever someone gets a ban people freak out and want to know why and assume it was unfair.



If and when people do ask for the "juicy secrets", it's not hard to counter that with a professional "This is a private matter and as such those details will not be disclosed."  And yes, if people misbehave grossly: by al means take action. But don't just swing your banhammer first and explain later that some people may have been hit with more force than was needed.


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## BRN (Jan 2, 2014)

The more purile and aggressive post(er)s in this thread really give credit to why the changes were needed xP


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## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Like I've said multiple times, I totally agree that we should've had an announcement out sooner, and I understand if people are upset with chase's past.
> 
> However, that does not mean its ok for people to harass the staff and be assholes. They should've known better than to act like that. If the people upset with chase had more tact when addressing their concerns, we probably wouldn't have as much of this crazy drama going on currently.



Not all of them did. And threads made to discuss the problem were instantly locked/nuked. How wouldn't this aggravate the community at all? It's seriously like waving a red cape in front of a raging bull and wondering "Why the FUCK did that asshole bull ram me?! >:C"


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't get why "Hey, we parted on good term" sticky announcement is such a "Juicy secret".

It's not. Unless it's just a "I don't want you. Bye" fuckstick, or that it's the announcement is just a lie and the ex-mod has something to say about it, nothing bad will happen out of that.


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## Mentova (Jan 2, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> Not all of them did. And threads made to discuss the problem were instantly locked/nuked. How wouldn't this aggravate the community at all? It's seriously like waving a red cape in front of a raging bull and wondering "Why the FUCK did that asshole bull ram me?! >:C"



As far as I know, all the infractions given out during this were justified. If people got infracted and they feel it was too harsh, PM me. I've also already stated how I felt about how heavy handed people were at the start of all this.


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## Willow (Jan 2, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> Considering the state of FA, I doubt you will ever be able to unite the forum and the art site together. Remember that FA is treated as a site purely for making money. No one really comes to chat or anything.


The only way we can unite the forums and the mainsite is by breaking the mainsite :V

Honestly though, the fact that the forums and FA are two separate entities is the main reason why you can't really unite them. A lot of people don't want to make two accounts to use the same site and I guess feel it's unnecessary? Which is ironic because these forums are pretty good publicity.


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## Toshabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Then there isn't much to discuss. Me and several other members here have shown our dissatisfaction for the newly positioned admin and we've given our reasons based on evidence floating around the nets. This is simply a matter of "Dragoneer Says". Nothing will sway the will of Neer and for that, this whole matter and discussion is trivial. At least it gave people a chance to voice opinions without getting backhanded. 


And like always, tis another pointless thread on FAF. 


Lessons learned: This thread should've happened sooner.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 2, 2014)

Ansitru said:


> And again I'll point to deviantArt where a post announcing a volunteer is made, as well as a post announcing when that volunteer's time is up, for whatever reason that may be. It isn't a long announcement, just a simple "thank you for your services", pretty cut & dry, no drama whatsoever.
> 
> And at the risk of kicking the hornets nest: appointing someone like that, knowing how caustic the community already reacts to regular users like that... Bad move, really.



It doesn't matter how "Caustic" the community is. We are not going to cave to not appointing a person to a place just because the community is supposedly this way, especially if the person is going to do a good job. I've worked with Chase with the area of main side that he does. I was part of that too. I was nothing but impressed with his professional way of handling tickets, the ability to empathize with the members, and willingness to put time and energy into each person's specific issue in order to reach the best and most proper outcome. He care about FA and he cares about the community, and he has put so much time and energy into a positive result.

I trust him that he will do well here as a person who loves FAF and still holds the community close to my heart.


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## Chase (Jan 2, 2014)

Willow said:


> The only way we can unite the forums and the mainsite is by breaking the mainsite :V
> 
> Honestly though, the fact that the forums and FA are two separate entities is the main reason why you can't really unite them. A lot of people don't want to make two accounts to use the same site and I guess feel it's unnecessary? Which is ironic because these forums are pretty good publicity.



At some point I would like to see the forums and the site connected by the same account without the actual need of creating multiple accounts.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 2, 2014)

Now I see why companies actually have to hire a bridge with social skill major to connect between the players and the admins.

We have mods
We have staffs
We have admins

But absolutely no one that really know what to say to make sure shitstorm subside, or not happen in the first place.



Willow said:


> The only way we can unite the forums and the mainsite is by breaking the mainsite :V
> 
> Honestly though, the fact that the forums and FA are two separate  entities is the main reason why you can't really unite them. A lot of  people don't want to make two accounts to use the same site and I guess  feel it's unnecessary? Which is ironic because these forums are pretty  good publicity.




Tbh, when I signed up for the forum, I didn't consider this as a "Forum for people who draw" but more of a "Forum for people with general interest in anthromorpic arts and animals"

By trying to change the approach and making it a "Forum for artists", you are killing what makes it easy to join the forum. This isn't like an MMO where everyone has the same thing to look at. We are talking about musics, drawings, literature and artists here. It's too diverse. A simple "I like my style" is more than enough to provoke a shitstorm.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> At some point I would like to see the forums and the site connected by the same account without the actual need of creating multiple accounts.


I thought that couldn't happen because the two sites were built differently?


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> At some point I would like to see the forums and the site connected by the same account without the actual need of creating multiple accounts.


Unless the problems with the main site actually get fixed, connecting the two accounts would render the forums useless when the main site goes down. :I


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> At some point I would like to see the forums and the site connected by the same account without the actual need of creating multiple accounts.



Thats actually a really bad idea. Sorry to say it, but its a bad idea. If FA goes down so do the forums if they are connected in any way. Even if the problems with FA are fixed most users appreciate having a seperate account from FA.


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## Ansitru (Jan 3, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> It doesn't matter how "Caustic" the community is. We are not going to cave to not appointing a person to a place just because the community is supposedly this way, especially if the person is going to do a good job. I've worked with Chase with the area of main side that he does. I was part of that too. I was nothing but impressed with his professional way of handling tickets, the ability to empathize with the members, and willingness to put time and energy into each person's specific issue in order to reach the best and most proper outcome. He care about FA and he cares about the community, and he has put so much time and energy into a positive result.
> 
> I trust him that he will do well here as a person who loves FAF and still holds the community close to my heart.



I am not questioning his love for the community or his skill. I am questioning illegal behavior and whether or not someone who has been involved in it should be appointed as the head of a large section of the site.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> I thought that couldn't happen because the two sites were built differently?



From what I have discussed, that's not necessarily true; however, if we did such a thing, I would like for it to be integrated into the site structure and not merely stitching vBulletin to the site.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Ansitru said:


> I am not questioning his love for the community or his skill. I am questioning illegal behavior and whether or not someone who has been involved in it should be appointed as the head of a large section of the site.



There was no illegal behavior.


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> From what I have discussed, that's not necessarily true; however, if we did such a thing, I would like for it to be integrated into the site structure and not merely stitching vBulletin to the site.



As I said, bad idea because if FA goes down so does the forum. Thats always been FA saving grace is that the users have somewhere to go while FA is suffering down time or maintinance.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> From what I have discussed, that's not necessarily true; however, if we did such a thing, I would like for it to be integrated into the site structure and not merely stitching vBulletin to the site.



Well as others had pointed out as well, the best part is that people can stay updated within FA and not have to turn to Twitter or something. They can stay within the community


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

thoron said:


> As I said, bad idea because if FA goes down so does the forum. Thats always been FA saving grace is that the users have somewhere to go while FA is suffering down time or maintinance.





Aleu said:


> Well as others had pointed out as well, the best part is that people can stay updated within FA and not have to turn to Twitter or something. They can stay within the community



I'm hoping that with future updates, etc. that it will be possible to work on the site while not affecting the forum. Concerning downtime, it's something I would like to see minimized/removed in the coming years so that it shouldn't be an issue. And if the site is taken down, have an appropriate flag that tells users why when they land on the site's page.


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## Percy (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> Concerning downtime, it's something I would like to  see minimized/removed in the coming years so that it shouldn't be an  issue. And if the site is taken down, have an appropriate flag that  tells users why when they land on the site's page.


Hopefully that can be figured out soon. Just way too many outages recently...


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> I'm hoping that with future updates, etc. that it will be possible to work on the site while not affecting the forum. Concerning downtime, it's something I would like to see minimized/removed in the coming years so that it shouldn't be an issue. And if the site is taken down, have an appropriate flag that tells users why when they land on the site's page.



And what about those who prefer to have seperate accounts? Also just telling people the reason why the site is down doesn't cut the mustard, people come here to hang out while the site is down and if the forum does go down due to a main site outage people will not be pleased. In short, its best that the two sites remain seperate.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jan 3, 2014)

I just want to add a bit of user feedback. 

I for one am very disappointed in the sluggish response to such action taken. (IE: Admin changes and crackdown on behavior) I've never been much of a problem user (no infracs or bans in all my user history in fact) and was quite shocked when I noticed some key staff members suddenly changed. 

If I might make a teensy suggestion. In the future, when changing the head of forum of this size it might be wise to make a thread about to alert the users. It sorta helps them understand what's going on and not panic.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Also, if you're suspended from FA or FAF it doesn't effect whether you can use one over the other. Let alone being able to appeal it. 

Unless you plan on creating separate infractions for different parts of the site. Which seems kind of tedious.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Percy said:


> Hopefully that can be figured out soon. Just way too many outages recently...



I agree. I know that our techies get a lot of flak, especially Yak, but seriously, they all work hard to keep the site running, rushing to every emergency. I know users get, "We're working on yada yada yada," all the time and I'm not here to offer any excuses. The site needs work and we're doing what we can.


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Willow said:


> Also, if you're suspended from FA or FAF it doesn't effect whether you can use one over the other. Let alone being able to appeal it.
> 
> Unless you plan on creating separate infractions for different parts of the site. Which seems kind of tedious.



This, what of those who might have a temporary ban on one or the other? I've seen some get banned from the forum and continue on the mainsite as if nothing happened and vise versa. How would merging the forum and site affect that?

To be honest I don't understand the obsession some have with having forums intergrated into a site. Sure its neat and fancy but the forum becomes completely if the site goes down and to say that one aims to reduce/remove site outages at some point in the future and use that as justification for merging the two really isn't planning for the unknown very well.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I just want to add a bit of user feedback.
> 
> I for one am very disappointed in the sluggish response to such action taken. (IE: Admin changes and crackdown on behavior) I've never been much of a problem user (no infracs or bans in all my user history in fact) and was quite shocked when I noticed some key staff members suddenly changed.
> 
> If I might make a teensy suggestion. In the future, when changing the head of forum of this size it might be wise to make a thread about to alert the users. It sorta helps them understand what's going on and not panic.



I agree and I will do my best to be more proactive in the future concerning forum updates.



> And what about those who prefer to have seperate accounts? Also just telling people the reason why the site is down doesn't cut the mustard, people come here to hang out while the site is down and if the forum does go down due to a main site outage people will not be pleased. In short, its best that the two sites remain seperate.



I personally don't see the benefit of having separate accounts. Also, I hope that users don't come to the forum simply because the site is down. I think that kind of goes against earlier notions that there are two separate communities all-together.



> Also, if you're suspended from FA or FAF it doesn't effect whether you can use one over the other. Let alone being able to appeal it.
> 
> Unless you plan on creating separate infractions for different parts of the site. Which seems kind of tedious.



One site, one set of rules, etc. Nothing is definite at this moment concerning your notion; however, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> I personally don't see the benefit of having separate accounts. Also, I hope that users don't come to the forum simply because the site is down. I think that kind of goes against earlier notions that there are two separate communities all-together.
> 
> 
> 
> One site, one set of rules, etc. Nothing is definite at this moment concerning your notion; however, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.



Many people come to the forums because the site is down. Some even stay because they like it or get more publicity.

The benefit of having two sites is that if there is a ban on the forums, you can still post your art. If there's a ban on the mainsite, you can still chat and maybe appeal if it is worth one.


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> I personally don't see the benefit of having separate accounts. Also, I hope that users don't come to the forum simply because the site is down. I think that kind of goes against earlier notions that there are two separate communities all-together.



You might not but many other do so why would you force your own idea of community onto everyone else. Basically most users don't want the forum and the main site merged.
Also, FA was able to recover after that massive month long (+) outage years back because the forum was here. If FA should ever go down like that again and there's no forum for people to go to FA will likely never recover.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> One site, one set of rules, etc. Nothing is definite at this moment concerning your notion; however, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.



So much for promoting the forum. No one's going to use a forum that can affect their main site account. It's like MMOs. Unless you receive around 15 permabans, they will NEVER touch your main account.


----------



## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> Many people come to the forums because the site is down. Some even stay because they like it or get more publicity.
> 
> The benefit of having two sites is that if there is a ban on the forums, you can still post your art. If there's a ban on the mainsite, you can still chat and maybe appeal if it is worth one.



So, by integrating, there is more incentive to follow the rules. I cannot foresee a system where users wouldn't be able to appeal at any given time.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:
			
		

> I personally don't see the benefit of having separate accounts. Also, I hope that users don't come to the forum simply because the site is down. I think that kind of goes against earlier notions that there are two separate communities all-together.


The good seems to outweigh the bad by quite a bit as we've already kind of pointed out. Regardless of if the site goes down less frequently, not having a direct line of communication for when site outages, or even little things like that white page that comes up to ask "hey, what's going on" is a problem. 

I'm sure you wouldn't want people to just sign up for Twitter just to ask that too or give general input. Because then you're making two separate accounts on two separate websites to use the same site basically. 

Also separate communities would kind of exist regardless of whether or not the two integrated. 



> One site, one set of rules, etc. Nothing is definite at this moment concerning your notion; however, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.


I'd rather this not be like SoFurry tbh. Because that kind of nixes the whole "PG-13 forums" bit seeing as how main site supercedes the forums.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> So, by integrating, there is more incentive to follow the rules. I cannot foresee a system where users wouldn't be able to appeal at any given time.



And with both of them together, you're just adding an option to get the main site account banned.

With that kind of risk, it's a lot more preferable to just remain silence, post new art, talk abit to watchers and just leave. No one wants to risk a random ban on their main site because they argued with someone on the forum.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> So much for promoting the forum. No one's going to use a forum that can affect their main site account. It's like MMOs. Unless you receive around 15 permabans, they will NEVER touch your main account.



Like I said, there isn't anything definite concerning how infractions and such will be applied or if they will ever change at all. The rules being adjusted is merely for simplicity's sake to have everything more streamline.


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## Percy (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> One site, one set of rules, etc. Nothing is definite at this moment concerning your notion; however, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities.


That would just seem highly unfair if it were implemented. The two websites are very different; one is an art website, the other a forum in where you can post about anything (rules permitting of course). Bans really should be kept separate as they are now.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Willow said:


> I'd rather this not be like SoFurry tbh. Because that kind of nixes the whole "PG-13 forums" bit seeing as how main site supercedes the forums.



I am not aware of any ideas to change of the Forum's rating. Streamlining the rules wouldn't affect this.


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> So, by integrating, there is more incentive to follow the rules. I cannot foresee a system where users wouldn't be able to appeal at any given time.



So why should I encoure a ban here if I get into a scuffle on the main site? You do realize its only going to cause a massive spike it evasion account right? Basically stop trying to merge two things that have no place being merged. Yout trying force a gallery and a bar into one. Here users feel like they can let off steam and banter, the main has no real place for that.


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## Maolfunction (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> So, by integrating, there is more incentive to follow the rules. I cannot foresee a system where users wouldn't be able to appeal at any given time.


And bam, suddenly people will only see this as becoming more strict.

It's a good idea on paper, but people never react well when suddenly they feel like they have to tiptoe around both sites because if they get in trouble, they lose access to a lot more stuff. The forum will most definitely start to die if people feel like the risk of getting in trouble on the forum isn't worth it. (Which at the moment, getting in trouble can be pretty easy as it's not entirely clear how people are supposed to act here, [the general atmosphere is way different than the mainsite] though it seems like you have plans on changing that, which I'm slightly curious about)


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Maolfunction said:


> And bam, suddenly people will only see this as becoming more strict.
> 
> It's a good idea on paper, but people never react well when suddenly they feel like they have to tiptoe around both sites because if they get in trouble, they lose access to a lot more stuff. The forum will most definitely start to die if people feel like the risk of getting in trouble on the forum isn't worth it. (Which at the moment, getting in trouble can be pretty easy as it's not entirely clear how people are supposed to act here, [the general atmosphere is way different than the mainsite] though it seems like you have plans on changing that, which I'm slightly curious about)



You very well could be correct, which is why I didn't say this was something that is planned. At current, the only plan is to streamline the rules so that they are simple and understandable across the board when looking at the site and the forums.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> I am not aware of any ideas to change of the Forum's rating. Streamlining the rules wouldn't affect this.



Well that's something to think on because that's kind of important.

Unless you're gonna make the mainsite PG-13, in which case HOO BOY I'd LOVE to see the result.


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## Toshabi (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> Well that's something to think on because that's kind of important.
> 
> Unless you're gonna make the mainsite PG-13, in which case HOO BOY I'd LOVE to see the result.




Lovely, FAF is going to become a fetish fodder website. I can't WAIT to see the delicious new threads that come with the reworked FAF. =)


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## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> Well that's something to think on because that's kind of important.
> 
> Unless you're gonna make the mainsite PG-13, in which case HOO BOY I'd LOVE to see the result.


No you wouldnt. It would be a fucking disaster.
Maybe you would, I dunno. 
Goddamn my eyes hurt.


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## Maolfunction (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> You very well could be correct, which is why I didn't say this was something that is planned. At current, the only plan is to streamline the rules so that they are simple and understandable across the board when looking at the site and the forums.


I can be behind this as long as the streamlined rules make sense and are consistent between the two. 

Which is also where you're going to run into problems as the forum and the main site seem to cater to two different age ranges in terms of content. This is where the inherent differences between the two communities kick in because the mainsite will want to talk about their sex while the forum community would like to keep the quality of discussion. And then drama because if you're going to have streamlined, consistent rules between the two, somebody is not going to be happy.

I don't envy you in this particular position.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> Well that's something to think on because that's kind of important.
> 
> Unless you're gonna make the mainsite PG-13, in which case HOO BOY I'd LOVE to see the result.



Hold on. 



I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if a million furries cried out and were suddenly silenced. :v


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> I am not aware of any ideas to change of the Forum's rating. Streamlining the rules wouldn't affect this.





Chase said:


> One site, one set of rules, etc.


So I guess you mean they'd be merged. 

It's honestly a lot more trouble than it's worth though. I don't want to have to constantly turn my mature filter on and off just to browse between the two.

Edit: And it creates more work for the staff too because on top of trying to keep minors from being able to view mature content, they have to make sure they're not trying to sneak into adult rated sections on the forums. 

Of course we could be like Gaia and just not give a hoot but Gaia's forums aren't the shining example of greatness and are more hostile than these forums are.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> Lovely, FAF is going to become a fetish fodder website. I can't WAIT to see the delicious new threads that come with the reworked FAF. =)



Oh you.



> Unless you're gonna make the mainsite PG-13, in which case HOO BOY I'd LOVE to see the result.



No one - well, not everyone would want to see that result.



> I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if a million furries cried out and were suddenly silenced. :v



I know, right? :3



Willow said:


> So I guess you mean they'd be merged.
> 
> It's honestly a lot more trouble than it's worth though. I don't want to have to constantly turn my mature filter on and off just to browse between the two.



If we are able to actually integrate the two in a meaningful way, I don't think it would be necessary to have to keep adjusting settings on the user's side of things.



> I can be behind this as long as the streamlined rules make sense and are consistent between the two.



There is no rush job on this. I do want it to be consistent and make sense.


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## Percy (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> No one - well, not everyone would want to see that result.


Well, there is an SFW filter for a reason...


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

Streamlining the rules doesn't mean that suddenly this place will become fetish forums. It simply means we can look at the rule-sets for both sites and make necessary adjustments. If we have a rule against call outs for example on both sides, shouldn't the language of the rule be somewhat consistent on both forums and the main side? Not saying this is the case with that rule, but it's just an example. Things like that are something we'd like to look at.


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

For what its worth most of the rules are already fairly consistent as far as I can tell especially in regards to behavior. In terms of content allowed the two are very different so I fail to understand why things need streamlining beyond rules regarding behavior. 

It will be impossible to completely stream line to the two sites rules. FAF will have to keep its PG-13 rules inregards to content allowed and FA will have to keep the rules regarding the Mature/Adult content and who can view it. If you want a forum thats intergrated into the site make a new one but leave this one alone.


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## Armaetus (Jan 3, 2014)

Can't trust Chase because of his past actions and behavior, especially the dog wanking is OK statement made back then.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Percy said:


> Well, there is an SFW filter for a reason...



There's also a setting in your account options so you never have to use that button and can enjoy the site free from any adult material; however, I believe that the button was put there for convenience, sort of like how some browsers have a "panic button" and hide all the things you don't want someone else to see who walked into the room - I could be wrong! :3


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## Lobar (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, I'm sure moderator aggression is the reason *M. Le Renard* of all people got ousted.

This isn't answers, it's just more of the same pre-digested PR pap that gets regurgitated every time A Thing happens, and we're just expected to swallow.


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## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

I read the word fetish on here so many goddamn times a day its lost all meaning.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> Yean, I'm sure moderator aggression is the reason *M. Le Renard* of all people got ousted.
> 
> This isn't answers, it's just more of the same pre-digested PR pap that gets regurgitated every time A Thing happens, and we're just expected to swallow.



I do seem to recall it having been said that the internal workings of why some people have been removed is considered a private matter, between staff. If people want to make assumptions they can do that on their own time. Don't drag it into here. It is not to be the topic of discussion. It's not that I or anyone else wants to "censor" anyone. This is a internal matter. We are not going to discuss it publicly.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> As far as I know, nobody has been infracted for petty reasons. (...) Nobody is, or has been banned for having opinions. However, if you act like an ass about it, action might be taken.


I can think of a good few who did... I myself got a completely unrelated thread *hard-deleted* (not even a deleted thread placeholder) and a warning over it, and at least one mod and several users warned me about the subject because they were worried I'd get banned. Regarding this issue, I've so far taken a very cautious approach for the most part and made a single snarky comment about our newly crowned Glorious Lord Chase, which was the closest I came so far to being banned.



Dragoneer said:


> Because I know that I can trust Chase.


You sure do forget a lot, don't you? Perhaps you've forgotten why Chase 'resigned' in 2011. What was it... What was the reason... Hmm... Oh! Right. *Insulted your dying parents*. But hey, he's trustworthy! And that's not even touching on animal cruelty and admissions of zoophilia.

Regarding these recent changes, it seems like we're experiencing a higher than normal volume of bans lately, and not the usual orange-tinted infrac-bans for shitposting but red manual admin bans. Along with threads being hard deleted (no evidence of their existence remains) and other crap. A lot of FA(F) regulars have jumped ship to Weasyl despite not really wanting to, and it's all over controversy surrounding the admin shakeup. Hell, most of them have jumped specifically because of this crackdown.

I get it. The admin thing was/is "private" info that you want to keep "private". But what has all the covert nonsense been for up til now? Where was it getting you? I have it on good authority that it's Chase who's behind this mess, both the admin shakeup that started it off and the crackdown campaign that's been sweeping the forums and mainsite (yes, even journals are being deleted). I think you said it best, Neer, when you said he rubs people as "... *some power hungry cop/authority figure wanna be*."

Not that it matters that I'm posting this - It'll most likely be deleted in spite of breaking no rules for "inciting drama", which I've already been warned over for something that had nothing to do with this (hilariously and as the interest in this thread proves, the drama is already very much there). Nobody will ever see it, and I'll get banned and nobody will know why.

*And as long as that behaviour continues to happen, more threads will keep getting created and more people will keep getting banned because this is outrageous*.

*All* of this could have been avoided if you'd just come out sooner with a thread like this (even if it's just PR and not actually the truth as in this case) instead of handing out bans left and right for whatever ass-backward "sweep it under the rug" reasoning and letting it fester. Like seriously, it took a fraction of the effort to make this thread than it did to forcibly silence everyone who was asking about it or otherwise directing attention to the problem and thus piss more people off as this comes to light. I don't even see why it's that big a deal to begin with that it had to be kept under wraps. But hey, run the site however you want. The long and the short of it is, this probably wasn't the best course of action.

And all of this is completely disregarding the separate shitstorm surrounding Zaush being put in charge of FA's redesign.

To the admins who are actually doing their jobs, I'm really sorry you're in the middle of this. It's been fun in a tragic way to watch this unfold since Christmas, but as most of the regulars have already jumped ship, I suppose I might, too. I take specific offence to having an axe hanging over my head for thinking the wrong things and knowing the wrong truths, and I also take offence to having someone like Chase holding that axe. Whatever happens from here, whether I'm banned or infracted or this post gets deleted or whatever, just remember that I'm not by any means the only one who feels this way. And since it'll take actual effort and concern for the community to prove that the "purges" are over, Chase is reformed, everything is wonderful and all of my concerns are without reason, I'm sure I'll be "helped along" like so many others were.


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## Lobar (Jan 3, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> I do seem to recall it having been said that the internal workings of why some people have been removed is considered a private matter, between staff. If people want to make assumptions they can do that on their own time. Don't drag it into here. It is not to be the topic of discussion. It's not that I or anyone else wants to "censor" anyone. This is a internal matter. We are not going to discuss it publicly.



We know MLR had no such concerns of his privacy, since he posted about the matter of his own accord before it was removed.

"Moderator aggression" continues to be the only explanation offered in this thread so far for the staff shake-up.  If Dragoneer won't deign to give an honest answer in this thread, supposedly an answer to all our questions regarding the recent changes here, then I calls them as I sees them.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> We know MLR had no such concerns of his privacy, since *he posted about the matter of his own accord* before it was removed.



He did.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> I do seem to recall it having been said that the internal workings of why some people have been removed is considered a private matter, between staff. If people want to make assumptions they can do that on their own time. Don't drag it into here. It is not to be the topic of discussion. It's not that I or anyone else wants to "censor" anyone. This is a internal matter. We are not going to discuss it publicly.


And like I said earlier, it's concerning that letting go of staff so suddenly is considered a private matter. I don't really care for the details and whatnot but this is the first time I'm especially hearing about it and I apparently missed the big thread this all went down in. 

But of course people are going to make assumptions, jump to conclusions, and take up whatever opportunity they can get to press for answers about this because the vague reasoning isn't satisfactory. 

Sorry but it kind of makes you guys look bad.



Runefox said:


> He did.


*Is this real life?*


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## Butters Shikkon (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, it certainly would be an interesting demonstration of our new management's administration style and diplomatic demeanor to respond to Runefox's detailed post.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

Willow said:


> And like I said earlier, it's concerning that letting go of staff so suddenly is considered a private matter. I don't really care for the details and whatnot but this is the first time I'm especially hearing about it and I apparently missed the big thread this all went down in.
> 
> But of course people are going to make assumptions, jump to conclusions, and take up whatever opportunity they can get to press for answers about this because the vague reasoning isn't satisfactory.
> 
> Sorry but it kind of makes you guys look bad.



Suddenly? I can recall a few staff removed before and we didn't go into the thick of why they were removed then. So why suddenly would we change now? Lets be completely realistic here. There are a lot of places that are well established that do not do this. They do not sit there and after letting people go suddenly turn to the public and go "Oh well we removed X because of Y".

If you want to talk about assumptions, even if we were to sit and go "Here is why" people will still make assumptions, jump to conclusions, and press for information that they really don't need. I see this all the time as an Admin. When you start ticket work this becomes common. People not associated with the entire situation demand information that is not theirs to have. They will go out of their way to demand it too.

I"m sorry if people think it makes us look bad. When there is an issue between staff and user, it is private. When there is an issue between staff and staff it is private. This is not new.


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## Lobar (Jan 3, 2014)

We must protect our staff members' privacy, even from themselves.  Move along, citizen.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> Suddenly? I can recall a few staff removed before and we didn't go into the thick of why they were removed then. So why suddenly would we change now? Lets be completely realistic here. There are a lot of places that are well established that do not do this. They do not sit there and after letting people go suddenly turn to the public and go "Oh well we removed X because of Y".


Then why make the information that you're changing staff public if you don't what people to question that?



> If you want to talk about assumptions, even if we were to sit and go "Here is why" people will still make assumptions, jump to conclusions, and press for information that they really don't need. I see this all the time as an Admin. When you start ticket work this becomes common. People not associated with the entire situation demand information that is not theirs to have. They will go out of their way to demand it too.


Oh, but given the circumstances, I think we deserve to know even the basics. And not the vague reasoning that apparently went down in the other thread. 
This is coming from someone who had been gone for several days only to come back to this heaping mess. 



> I"m sorry if people think it makes us look bad. When there is an issue between staff and user, it is private. When there is an issue between staff and staff it is private. This is not new.


I am way too tired for this.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> I"m sorry if people think it makes us look bad. When there is an issue between staff and user, it is private. When there is an issue between staff and staff it is private. This is not new.



The problem with this is that this was a sweeping purge and restructuring, not simply "issues" with one or two staff members. You may still see it as private, but as you've seen it seriously upsets the general perception of the upper staff. It's one thing to say that people won't believe you, but compared to the number of people who see a very insidious cloud hanging over this whole thing and are all coming to the same conclusions, that's nothing. Even an announcement saying "We're restructuring our administrative staff to streamline" would have shut most of it up. Instead, we got bans and thread deletions.

You can't crap in our hands and tell us it's always been there. Anyone with half a brain can see this is an extraordinary occurrence and not business as usual.


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## Lobar (Jan 3, 2014)

Willow said:


> Then why make the information that you're changing staff public if you don't what people to question that?



They actually didn't.  They'd hoped to simply slide a quiet little purge by us, but people tend to notice when active members of the community get demodded.  There's a link to a page with a list of all current staff members up top, so once people knew something was up it was easy to see what all had changed.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> They actually didn't.  They'd hoped to simply slide a quiet little purge by us, but people tend to notice when active members of the community get demodded.  There's a link to a page with a list of all current staff members up top, so once people knew something was up it was easy to see what all had changed.


The plot thickens.

Edit: This situation just keeps getting worse and worse.


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> They actually didn't.  They'd hoped to simply slide a quiet little purge by us, but people tend to notice when active members of the community get demodded.  There's a link to a page with a list of all current staff members up top, so once people knew something was up it was easy to see what all had changed.



Nobody was trying to hide it man :/


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> They actually didn't.  They'd hoped to simply slide a quiet little purge by us, but people tend to notice when active members of the community get demodded.  There's a link to a page with a list of all current staff members up top, so once people knew something was up it was easy to see what all had changed.



Where is this link? I'm having a hard time finding it.

Edit: Found it in quick links under view site leaders.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> The problem with this is that this was a sweeping purge and restructuring, not simply "issues" with one or two staff members. You may still see it as private, but as you've seen it seriously upsets the general perception of the upper staff. It's one thing to say that people won't believe you, but compared to the number of people who see a very insidious cloud hanging over this whole thing and are all coming to the same conclusions, that's nothing. Even an announcement saying "We're restructuring our administrative staff to streamline" would have shut most of it up. Instead, we got bans and thread deletions.
> 
> You can't crap in our hands and tell us it's always been there. Anyone with half a brain can see this is an extraordinary occurrence and not business as usual.



I'm not denying that this doesn't upset people. Neither will I deny that it would have been much better if we had a message sooner. This is definitely something that will be kept in mind especially if there are any significant chances that happen in the future. However, remember we are people, not robots. There is a lot I wish I could say, but I cannot. I respect privacy between our staff, and I'm going to leave it at that.

What I will say is that, regardless of what happens people need to follow the rules and maintain a certain level of civility. Quite a few posts that were removed were the opposite of that. Calling out a staff member to harass them is not criticism. Sitting there and literally giving an staff member a "Fuck you" attitude is not productive. When things went down, it's not like it happened at once. So how things went down (I think I can say this much) made posting up immediately very problematic.

The "Bans" some of which were not done based on someone speaking up. Refer back to what was said earlier, when infractions build they can tip people into the suspended. It's in the rules. So please don't make assumptions no matter how tempting that we removed people left and right for being upset. We didn't.

I'd appreciate it a lot if people wouldn't keep trying to blow things out of proportion here. There may have been a few things such as your thread that could have been handled differently. We've admitted that. We've admitted that this thread here probably could have happened earlier. However, none of this excuses bad behavior. It doesn't excuse trying to incite drama. It doesn't excuse sitting there and treating the staff like punching bags.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Nobody was trying to hide it man :/



How many threads were deleted and how many people were warned, infracted, and banned because this was a "private matter"? How many journals were deleted? Hell, I made a thread in R&R about sites censoring users with no specific mention of any site, much less FA, and I got warned over it and the post removed. You can take a look at it over here and see for yourself. It was deleted within a minute of posting.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

EDIT: Double-posted instead of editing the previous post; Sorry about that. I brainfarted.



Trpdwarf said:


> The "Bans" some of which were not done based on someone speaking up. Refer back to what was said earlier, when infractions build they can tip people into the suspended. It's in the rules. So please don't make assumptions no matter how tempting that we removed people left and right for being upset. We didn't.


*Orange usernames with strikethroughs* indicate suspensions due to infractions. *Red usernames with strikethroughs* indicate specific administrative action.

Many (most?) of the people who got banned are red bans. I won't deny that some of them were extreme about their opinions (XoPachi's one), but others weren't. *Not that it's possible to prove one way or another because the posts no longer exist*.


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## Lobar (Jan 3, 2014)

thoron said:


> Where is this link? I'm having a hard time finding it.



Quick Links -> View Site Leaders


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> How many threads were deleted and how many people were warned, infracted, and banned because this was a "private matter"? How many journals were deleted? Hell, I made a thread in R&R about sites censoring users with no specific mention of any site, much less FA, and I got warned over it and the post removed. You can take a look at it over here and see for yourself. It was deleted within a minute of posting.



They weren't deleted because people were trying to hide it and be sneaky. The threads about the mods being removed were deleted due to wanting to keep things between private, similar to how we don't go around telling people why users were banned. The threads about chase were deleted because they were hostile and inflammatory and not constructive criticism (I still feel that a few of the threads shouldn't have been deleted, btw) Your thread... I mean, come on. You had to have realized that it was an awful idea to make that during a time when all this crazy drama has been going down. :/


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## Lobar (Jan 3, 2014)

"We weren't trying to hide things, we were trying to keep things private"

Man, I know you're just doing your job and all and I'm sure you hate having to do this, but you can't tell me that isn't some bullshit semantics right there.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> EDIT: Double-posted instead of editing the previous post; Sorry about that. I brainfarted.
> 
> 
> *Orange usernames with strikethroughs* indicate suspensions due to infractions. *Red usernames with strikethroughs* indicate specific administrative action.
> ...



So it sounds like the opus of your issue right now is the people handled by staff. Please, calm down and think about it. As a moderator, if you are ever in that position, there are different things that you may end up having to look at when dealing with conflict. One is the posts that are public to users. Two of course are the ones that get removed, and becomes still view-able by the moderation team once moved. Three...are _private messages_.

What people do that gets them in trouble with the rules....does not always happen public where others can see it. I can assure you anyone who was removed via suspensions, infractions were done so for a good reason. We were following and enforcing the rules. I am sorry that you do not get to see everything. Honestly that is often the most painful thing for me as a staff member. There are too many times I see people going nuts over something, and often the people perpetuating it are not being quite...honest with others? I always think, if only they could see what really happened. If only they can see what else went on that they don't get to see.

They can't, because that's private. We don't parade people's dirty laundry so to speak. If we are dealing with a ticket for example, the details of that stay private. It burns me sometimes because too many people white-knight not having the full story.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> They weren't deleted because people were trying to hide it and be sneaky. The threads about the mods being removed were deleted due to wanting to keep things between private, similar to how we don't go around telling people why users were banned. The threads about chase were deleted because they were hostile and inflammatory and not constructive criticism (I still feel that a few of the threads shouldn't have been deleted, btw) Your thread... I mean, come on. You had to have realized that it was an awful idea to make that during a time when all this crazy drama has been going down. :/


So if threads are made that just so happen to pertain to something happening on the forums, it can be deleted because it just _seems_ like it's a vaguepost or a call out?

I mean, this is Runefox of all people. He doesn't strike me as the type to vaguepost if it runs the risk of infraction/ban. :I


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> "We weren't trying to hide things, we were trying to keep things private"
> 
> Man, I know you're just doing your job and all and I'm sure you hate having to do this, but you can't tell me that isn't some bullshit semantics right there.


Yeah I worded that pretty awful, but its like 2:30 so cut me some slack. :c

The point I'm trying to make is that this isn't some malicious conspiracy where we wanted to silently remove people and act like nothing happened. We planned on making a post about it from the get go. The problem has more to do with the fact that we took way too long to post it, which all I can really say is "we done fucked up and I'm sorry"



Willow said:


> So if threads are made that just so happen to  pertain to something happening on the forums, it can be deleted because  it just _seems_ like it's a vaguepost or a call out?
> 
> I mean, this is Runefox of all people. He doesn't strike me as the type  to vaguepost if it runs the risk of infraction/ban. :I


I don't know who deleted the thread, but it seems a bit reasonable to think that a thread complaining about sites who censor people is a call out during a time where a lot of people are claiming that we are censoring people. Now, I didn't see the thread, and I don't know who deleted it, so if it really was just a massive coincidence then I apologize, but you have to at least see how someone would think that :/


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> They weren't deleted because people were trying to hide it and be sneaky. The threads about the mods being removed were deleted due to wanting to keep things between private, similar to how we don't go around telling people why users were banned. The threads about chase were deleted because they were hostile and inflammatory and not constructive criticism (I still feel that a few of the threads shouldn't have been deleted, btw) Your thread... I mean, come on. You had to have realized that it was an awful idea to make that during a time when all this crazy drama has been going down. :/



Mentova, there is that chance that he didn't know that posting his thread was a bad idea. I can see both sides of this and can also see where Runefox and others are starting to and thinking that the FAF staff is hiding something from us members


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> They weren't deleted because people were trying to hide it and be sneaky.





Mentova said:


> Your thread... I mean, come on. You had to have realized that it was an awful idea to make that during a time when all this crazy drama has been going down. :/


Just wanted to put those two bits together for relevance.

I appealed it. I was told specifically that it was closed deleted because, and I quote, "because it is a hot bed for people to come in and continue to try and pry into a matter that is not meant for the public". Despite the fact that the thread was specifically about deleting posts and silencing users than it was about admin shakeups and transparency.

The thread was completely deleted. No trace. Not even a delete stub. It was removed within moments of posting. If that's not proof positive that this was "trying to hide it and be sneaky", I don't know what is. Completely erasing these threads from existence and not explaining to people in the open what's going on and why is hiding. *Closing* threads like this with explanation would be "keeping info private". Instead, scorched earth tactics, the notion that if nobody knows there's a problem, nobody will complain.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

Lobar said:


> "We weren't trying to hide things, we were trying to keep things private"
> 
> Man, I know you're just doing your job and all and I'm sure you hate having to do this, but you can't tell me that isn't some bullshit semantics right there.



We want to be able to answer a lot of questions people are burning to see answered. I see that a lot on the main side when I did tickets. People wanted to know why did this user get banned, or suspended, or so on and so forth. For example, the person might have been blatantly plagiarizing straight from obscure porn sites and sending insidious messages to people who point out that "Hey that's not your work!". but uh, yeah can't tell the public that can I?

But they can run off to some website and think up a grand story about how they were removed because FA is full of a bunch of meanies. The fun thing is a lot of people will jump up and believe them while we are stuck having to just...deal with it. I'd still rather this than having this thing were we air what people do all the time because it's silly and probably leads to more drama than it solves.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I don't know who deleted the thread, but it seems a bit reasonable to think that a thread complaining about sites who censor people is a call out during a time where a lot of people are claiming that we are censoring people. Now, I didn't see the thread, and I don't know who deleted it, so if it really was just a massive coincidence then I apologize, but you have to at least see how someone would think that :/


I kind of assumed you didn't have anything to do with it and I didn't see the thread either. 

And I see how someone could think that but you also have to admit. Outright deleting the thread without a trace was a bit of a kneejerk reaction.


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Just wanted to put those two bits together for relevance.
> 
> I appealed it. I was told specifically that it was closed because, and I quote, "because it is a hot bed for people to come in and continue to try and pry into a matter that is not meant for the public". Despite the fact that the thread was specifically about deleting posts and silencing users than it was about admin shakeups and transparency.
> 
> The thread was completely deleted. No trace. Not even a delete stub. It was removed within moments of posting. If that's not proof positive that this was "trying to hide it and be sneaky", I don't know what is. Completely erasing these threads from existence and not explaining to people in the open what's going on and why is hiding. *Closing* threads like this with explanation would be "keeping info private". Instead, scorched earth tactics, the notion that if nobody knows there's a problem, nobody will complain.



I guess they shouldn't have done that and instead should've just deleted them normally :/

I promise you that there was never any plans to keep this hush-hush and sneak things by, and I'm a man of my word.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> They weren't deleted because people were trying to hide it and be sneaky. The threads about the mods being removed were deleted due to wanting to keep things between private, similar to how we don't go around telling people why users were banned. The threads about chase were deleted because they were hostile and inflammatory and not constructive criticism (I still feel that a few of the threads shouldn't have been deleted, btw) *Your thread... I mean, come on. You had to have realized that it was an awful idea to make that during a time when all this crazy drama has been going down.* :/



But was his thread against the rules? 

That's a serious lapse in mod judgement. I expected a better response out of you Mentova of all people.


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Butters Shikkon said:


> But was his thread against the rules?
> 
> That's a serious lapse in mod judgement. I expected a better response out of you Mentova of all people.


Call outs and attempting to stir up drama are against the rules. Again, I personally did not see the thread, nor was I the one who deleted it, but its not too far fetched to assume that a thread about website staff censoring info is a passive aggressive jab at us since we're being accused of censoring info. :/


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## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

I think Im done reading this thread, its been going around in circles for the last 3 pages or so. Goodluck everyone.


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## Percy (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> I think Im done reading this thread, its been going around in circles for the last 3 pages or so. Goodluck everyone.


I'm beginning to feel the same way. Here's hoping things get resolved soon, this is just a mess.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Call outs and attempting to stir up drama are against the rules.


I don't recall calling anyone out in that thread, though. Stirring up drama, that wasn't the intention, but I do concede that a mod looking at it might think so. Still, out of the options of closing, deleting, or deleting every trace of it, I'd probably have chosen closing if I weren't under pressure to suppress. The warning was icing on the cake.



> Again, I personally did not see the thread, nor was I the one who deleted it, but its not too far fetched to assume that a *thread about website staff censoring info* is a passive aggressive jab at us since *we're being accused of censoring info*. :/


I hope the irony of this situation and that statement is not lost on you.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Call outs and attempting to stir up drama are against the rules. Again, I personally did not see the thread, nor was I the one who deleted it, but its not too far fetched to assume that a thread about website staff censoring info is a passive aggressive jab at us since we're being accused of censoring info. :/



I would have thought a forum with mods confident in such a change or its own management would have little to fear from such a vague thread. 

Menty, that looks weak...really really weak. And childish. The one thing I've always loved about discussion on this forum was when people could back up their facts and debate an issue. Does such a thread make a forum admin or mod tremble? 

What is a forum without discussion? 

In any other thread, people get called out on bullshit. Be it CC and his strict views on religion or TeenageAngst back in the day with his nonsense about gender roles. Can the site's own mods not defend against that? 

I'm becoming a little disheartened. I thought you all prided yourselves here at FAF on that. Has that culture disappeared?


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I would have thought a forum with mods confident in such a change or its own management would have little to fear from such a vague thread.
> 
> Menty, that looks weak...really really weak. And childish. The one thing I've always loved about discussion on this forum was when people could back up their facts and debate an issue. Does such a thread make a forum admin or mod tremble?
> 
> ...


I don't know, I didn't delete the thread, like I've said multiple times. All I'm saying is its not farfetched to think the thread was intended to be a passive aggressive jab. I wouldn't delete a thread that I felt was appropriate and opening up discussion, and I'd like to think the other mods wouldn't do so either.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova, 

You have to admit that far too many times in the past here on the forums, the staff goes quiet when us members start asking questions when the the main site acts up, misbehaves, crashes, changes to the TOS/AUP, rules, admin changes, policy, etc. Case in point when the database server had 'issues' that put the main site on read only, it literally took an act of congress to get just one admin to give lip service, or repeat the same worn excuses about what is going on, or we will update you in a few hours and never follow up. 

***edit***
What was bad during the data migration was that there were many admins active in the forums that were well aware of members discontent who didn't even bother addressing our concerns whether or not they were valid.
***edit***

You guys want respect, you guys want members to trust you then start communicating more. You are repeating events that have resulted in sites shutting down, events that can and will hurt FA and the forums. Remember Yerf.com, remember furry2furry.com they are no more. Why? Because they never communicated in a timely manner with their user bases and they even started censoring and deleting threads, comments and the like. User bases that are extremely critical to a sites very existence something I fear that most of the admins here and on the main site have seem to have forgotten.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I wouldn't delete a thread that I felt was appropriate and opening up discussion, and I'd like to think the other mods wouldn't do so either.



Well, I'm glad to hear you at least wouldn't. And I'd like to think the others wouldn't either. But I don't think that.


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> Mentova,
> 
> You have to admit that far too many times in the past here on the forums, the staff goes quiet when us members start asking questions when the the main site acts up, misbehaves, crashes, changes to the TOS/AUP, rules, admin changes, policy, etc. Case in point when the database server had 'issues' that put the main site on read only, it literally took an act of congress to get just one admin to give lip service, or repeat the same worn excuses about what is going on, or we will update you in a few hours and never follow up.
> 
> You guys want respect, you guys want members to trust you then start communicating more. You are repeating events that have resulted in sites shutting down, events that can and will hurt FA and the forums. Remember Yerf.com, remember furry2furry.com they are no more. Why? Because they never communicated in a timely manner with their user bases and they even started censoring and deleting threads, comments and the like. User bases that are extremely critical to a sites very existence something I fear that most of the admins here and on the main site have seem to have forgotten.



The communication problems are one of the big things we've been working on with these changes. The reason that we'd go quiet on the forums is because the forum staff would literally have no information about what was going on with the main site. It wasn't because we were hiding things. We literally knew about as much as the average user. That is changing, however.


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## Hewge (Jan 3, 2014)

Eh,_* legitimate and reasonable *_call out removals are alright, but so, so many posts/threads were just completely nuked.

Heck, even one of my posts were. It was just in the 'Things We Hate' thread. I simply said: "Hmm, I did notice Xopachi got banned recently. I checked his post/thread history, but saw nothing really worthy of a ban".
I was boggled at first, and thought maybe the post was too off-topic from the thread, or that we shouldn't mention if someone was banned, but even then just a delete/reason given would have been alright. Yet instead my post was just outright nuked from existence.

I found out later that day what was going on, and that XoPachi went rebel mode and was nuked/banned. Once again, instead of simply locking the thread and providing legitimate reasons, it was nuked, which of course is going to spark conspiracy. Like, seriously, I probably would have never even noticed/cared if this nuke never happened to mine or XoPachi's posts. Yet the nukes happened, and all that did was spark flames on the obviously harsh landscape that is FAF.

Of course, this is just what happened to me, I know there's been a lot stuff like that going down recently. 
Stuff like this is why people were getting upset. Absolutely anything in the slightest related to whatever was going on was just instantly nuked, and answers were never given. That is bad conduct, my friends.(Who's that's in charge of the Code of Conduct around here, again?)


I'm going to be honest here, I get you guys are just doing your jobs, but it seems like all the past few mod posts have just been all excuses lacking any real answers to what people are saying.

As for bringing FAF/FA closer together and making FAF less toxic in general, I think that's a great thing to do and it's been needed for a long time. Some members here should probably stop reacting so badly to that because, *no*, FAF wouldn't be overwhelmed with hugbox freaks that can't take a punch. A lot of people on the main site are level-headed and fine, even the murry purry ones. And they can, indeed, take a punch. (Of course, obviously, a massive amount of weirdos reside there too)

Eehh... All that was needed from the start was just a little honesty. Only after all of this, people are unsure you guys can provide something as simple as that.


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## Corto (Jan 3, 2014)

Since I don't think anyone answered this:


Smelge said:


> "We've updated the forum rules!"
> 
> Well great. Why don't you fucking highlight exactly what you've changed, because we haven't got photographic memories, so there's no way any fucker can spot whats been changed, removed or added.
> 
> Thats why I stopped reading updated forum rules. Because it changes and they don't say what they changed.





Aleu said:


> That I did have a problem with.



Ok, first of all, the three point ban thing has been there forever. It was there when we typed those rules a year ago, it was there in the old rules when I registered 5 years ago. Not our fault you can't finish reading the bloody thing. 

Second of all, we do "fucking higlight exactly what we've changed". The first line in the forum rules, right next to the big bold letters, it explicitly says both the date of the last change, and what the change was. Last change was revising the entire rules, so it says so there. Before it said something like "necro rules added", etc etc.

The rest of the conversation I'm not touching here, but if you wanna criticize the rules make sure you read them first.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> The communication problems are one of the big things we've been working on with these changes. The reason that we'd go quiet on the forums is because the forum staff would literally have no information about what was going on with the main site. It wasn't because we were hiding things. We literally knew about as much as the average user. That is changing, however.



The problem with your statement is that there were three possibly four admins (who admin both here and on FA) who were active on the forums during the migration who hardly communicated and gave us lip service about what was going on. If anything, those admins should have been making regular updates, not hiding behind a wall of silence. Plus I have seen it mentioned in this thread that member suggestions and offers of help are not taken seriously, something that we do feel is the case. 

Before you or anyone says it, yes FAF and the main site are free, but don't forget that the main site is at the moment the largest furry site online. FAF and FA are, despite what some admins hate to admit to and try to discourage, are social sites. People come to find and make friends, earn money, makes dates, look for venues to meet and greet, etc. Members have offered their services at no cost to the site to help improve it and make it even better than before only to basically told to "Go eff yourself". Why? Because some admins are too afraid and possibly insecure to let anyone look at the coding. Hell I am willing to bet that most admins have no idea what an NDA is or what it is used for.


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> The problem with your statement is that there were three possibly four admins (who admin both here and on FA) who were active on the forums during the migration who hardly communicated and gave us lip service about what was going on. If anything, those admins should have been making regular updates, not hiding behind a wall of silence. Plus I have seen it mentioned in this thread that member suggestions and offers of help are not taken seriously, something that we do feel is the case.
> 
> Before you or anyone says it, yes FAF and the main site are free, but don't forget that the main site is at the moment the largest furry site online. FAF and FA are, despite what some admins hate to admit to and try to discourage, are social sites. People come to find and make friends, earn money, makes dates, look for venues to meet and greet, etc. Members have offered their services at no cost to the site to help improve it and make it even better than before only to basically told to "Go eff yourself". Why? Because some admins are too afraid and possibly insecure to let anyone look at the coding. Hell I am willing to bet that most admins have no idea what an NDA is or what it is used for.



I think you're confusing some of the forum admins with the actual FA mainsite admins. I can't think of any mainsite admins who are active here. Trp doesn't count since she is taking a break from the mainsite.


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## Maolfunction (Jan 3, 2014)

How funny. This is almost a carbon copy of a situation I was involved with as staff of another forum.

It's common forum practice on forums that want to  maintain some level of professionalism that bans and demotions are not discussed with the general userbase. I don't think it's ever been the case on any forum I've worked at that this is done to harm the userbase. It's to protect them. Now, from what I can tell (forgive me, I'm having to piece together years of stuff it looks like so I might be wrong) it seems like a number of users here were banned and the general userbase just saw it out of the blue. (Not to mention some questionable decisions by staff regarding threads, but instead of jumping down their throats for what could have been an error in judgement, something that really did no harm if the staff is sincere about communicating with users now, let's try to move on) Now then, these users who were banned were presumeably well known members who have been active for years and most likely, they would not have minded if the staff just told everyone what happened.

But, the thing is with forums, not everyone who is banned is particularly of the same mind. There are plenty of users who are banned who don't want people to know what they did or the reasoning behind said ban. So, in order to respect the privacy of those individuals who don't want stuff out there, forums generally don't disclose info about bans to their userbase. It's not hiding. It's respect. Of course, it's to be expected that staff are not perfect creatures and sometimes there are mistakes. 

Even still, the general userbase is not staff. You don't get to make those decisions about what's right or wrong on the forum and who deserves to stay. It's not your forum no matter how many posts you have, or how many years you've been here. Ideally, the staff understand that it's a bad idea to drive away users with constant errors in judgment and constantly work to correct themselves to align with the natural direction of the forum, but there are limits to how far staff can go with that. 

While I can't have any sort of opinion on the character of the people on staff themselves due to just not being here long enough, I do understand that they have to work to maintain the forum the way they want the forum to be run. And it's not ever going to be perfect and not every user will be satisfied by how things are run. There's always going to be improvements, and if you're willing to work with them, staff will take your input (if they're good) and decide whether or not they want to implement your input. Raging at them for...doing things...doesn't really, well, help.

And if I can just shoot a quick little suggestion to staff. There's really no point in defending yourselves or your actions. If you feel as if you've collectively made a  mistake, apologize for it, address any concerns that arose from the mistake and move on. Constantly defending your actions does make it seem like you've done something wrong which needs to be defended. Just, be professional and remind people that you're in charge. I don't think this is a situation where everyone will be happy, so instead of burying yourselves in a hole trying to do that, just realize there will be a few casualties here and work to prevent it from happening again.


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## Littlerock (Jan 3, 2014)

Corto said:


> ...but if you wanna criticize the rules make sure you read them first.



I could take this seriously, if only for the existence of a certain [_insert alt-acc. callout here_]. :L


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I think you're confusing some of the forum admins with the actual FA mainsite admins. I can't think of any mainsite admins who are active here. Trp doesn't count since she is taking a break from the mainsite.



It's funny you should say that, since at least one of the admins who was canned actually was active here.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> I think you're confusing some of the forum admins with the actual FA mainsite admins. I can't think of any mainsite admins who are active here. Trp doesn't count since she is taking a break from the mainsite.



I do recall seeing 'Neer, Cerb on the forums during the migration, as for yak, I won't go there. Regardless, when there are major issues with FA that results in the site either going into read only, off line or what ever, ALL admins whether here or on FA needs to be up to date on what is going on, and able to answer most questions and concerns that are brought up. That is the problem, you guys are constantly dropping the ball and you wonder why there is so much drama? 

You are saying that you will be working on better communication between admins and members, all I am hearing right now is "BLAH, BLAH, BLAH LIP SERVICE, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH" Believe it or not this is 2014 NOT 1992, most of us have a fair amount of knowledge concerning computers, networks and the like. So you don't have to baby us, or give us overly technical detail, but something detailed enough that will allay our concerns not add to our growing frustration.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm sorry Runefox but no. I don't know where you are getting your information from but one thing that is not going to happen here, is were are not going to have discussions based on assumptions about staff, and bringing up misinformation especially at that level. You can note me if you like but cease that line of topic immediately. People already don't really know what led to what happened, and seeds for misinformation are not necessary.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Trpdwarf said:


> I'm sorry Runefox but no. I don't know where you are getting your information from but one thing that is not going to happen here, is were are not going to have discussions based on assumptions about staff, and bringing up misinformation especially at that level. You can note me if you like but cease that line of topic immediately.



Alright then, let me cut off the "speculation" part and stick to what we know.

Maolfunction, many users were banned after the admin shakeup in response to inquiries and outrage over the situation, which to me, in conjunction with extremely rampant thread/comment hard-deletes points to an active suppression effort. That's the main source of *my* outrage. It wasn't just a couple of people getting banned at the same time by coincidence, and it wasn't just one or two staff members getting the axe for any specific good reason (at least, not that can be discerned without talking to the admins who got cut - MLR specifically stated he got canned because Chase said he was involved with a "competitor site").


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## Rilvor (Jan 3, 2014)

Never mind, this was a mistake. So long folks.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> if someone was hit with an infraction that they really do feel was unfair, PM me about it and I'll take a look.



Mentova, the problem is, if we get hit with an infraction that results in a temp ban, we have no way to appeal it. Trust me I know, I got a weeks ban for reporting a former admin for violating the FAF TOS, When you are banned on the forums, you have no access while logged on (meaning if you wish to appeal you can't as you aren't allowed past the ban message. And if you log off to access the forums, you can't PM an admin because OH MY!!! YOU HAVE TO BE LOGGED IN TO SEND A PM!!!!). Basically getting banned means EFF OFF, as you are forbidden to appeal and when you get back we will laugh at you for appealing your ban as we ignore you. If we try other means to contact an admin to appeal, we are ignored.


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## Maolfunction (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Maolfunction, many users were banned after the admin shakeup in response to inquiries and *outrage* over the situation, which to me, in conjunction with extremely rampant thread/comment hard-deletes points to an *active suppression effort*. That's the main source of my outrage. It wasn't just a couple of people getting banned at the same time by coincidence, and it wasn't just one or two staff members getting the axe for any specific good reason



Hmm. Again, completely outside the loop here, but the situation again doesn't seem to point to malicious staff to me. I've been the victim of malicious staff when I and 15 other users were banned because of admin criticism and were never given an explanation or reasoning that pointed otherwise. That staff was malicious and the forum would have crashed had I not gone over the admins' heads completely and went straight to the forum owner who wasn't even aware of anything, but tangent aside, this doesn't echo the same sort of vibe.

It seems to me, and from my experience here it lines up, that after the admin shuffle, the users became, as you said, outraged. Now, when people are outraged, they tend to say or do things that may invariably cross lines and offend people. Offended people also tend to invariably say or do things irrationally. So. From what I've seen of this place, people tend to be, to be polite, blunt and forward with their opinions of people. And I'm being polite. People are people, even if they're staff, and people (especially people here) probably have issues with being attacked and/or put down in some fashion. That probably doesn't justify _all_ the bans, I'm aware, but I don't have the info staff has. And neither do you, despite what you think of that.

And I still don't see what your point is. Do you want something from this, what are you looking for that doesn't involve everything just going back to how you're used to because that's not going to happen. You're going to have to stop looking at what happened and go forward, or be upset and probably leave because of your differences.

I hope I don't look like an idiot here being so utterly new.


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## Armaetus (Jan 3, 2014)

I am done here (for now).

The mods most certainly aren't getting my silent wrath, it is the actual staff that is irritating me. You want respect? You gotta earn it through positive changes and not pussyfooting on the site's design, which the other 3 sites have already surpassed you in features. Why is that? There is no excuse for FA to be in the catacombs in 2014.

Laters, chumps.


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## Smelge (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm intrigued.

So forums and site with one login, right?

How exactly would that work. Forums, you're only allowed one account, no alt-accounts. FA, as many accounts as you can think up names for. But even before you get to that, how in the fuck are you actually going to implement anything like this? Your coding team is a laughing stock, the one existing person who occasionally does stuff to the site keeps leaving holes in the coding for exploits, vulnerabilities and general persistant downtime, and the "new and improved" coding team consists of a guy with massive ego issues and apparently little knowledge of the scripting language he's chosen, and his bunch of buddies.

And somehow you expect a shining new site with across-the-board integration to rise out of this steaming pile of dog dicks?


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## CaptainCool (Jan 3, 2014)

It has been pretty bad here on FAF but to be honest, I think that has changed quite a lot. The atmosphere has become a lot friendlier.
But what I did notice is that the quality of the community (if such a term exists) goes down every time there is a bigger downtime on the main site! At that point people often flood the forums with pretty awful posts. Asking for porn comics in the comics subforum or new threads in the den and rants and raves that are essentially devoid of all content are examples that come to my mind.

Then there is the fact that the regulars here are pretty blunt. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Most of the regulars aren't assholes. So when they start criticizing you banning them isn't exactly the best route to take...

As for the whole Chase being the in the lead thing:
Your job isn't just to regulate the community (both of FA and FAF). You have to listen to them as well. And guess what? If the majority of the users don't want Chase as the lead moderator (personally I don't give a damn who it is as long as the job gets done) then keeping him and banning people who criticize the staff is a terrible thing to do. That is not how you manage a community.


----------



## Kalmor (Jan 3, 2014)

CaptainCool said:


> As for the whole Chase being the in the lead thing:
> Your job isn't just to regulate the community (both of FA and FAF). You have to listen to them as well. And guess what? If the majority of the users don't want Chase as the lead moderator (personally I don't give a damn who it is as long as the job gets done) then keeping him and banning people who criticize the staff is a terrible thing to do. That is not how you manage a community.


Again, we _do not_ ban people who criticize the staff. We can however ban/infract if the users go about it in a way that breaks the forum rules (see: malicious callouts, "be civil", for example).

As for Chase, personally, if I wasn't comfortable with him being forum admin then I would've been gone as soon as things started going down.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Again, we _do not_ ban people who criticize the staff. We can however ban/infract if the users go about it in a way that breaks the forum rules (see: malicious callouts, "be civil", for example).
> 
> As for Chase, personally, if I wasn't comfortable with him being forum admin then I would've been gone as soon as things started going down.



Well sure, if they break the rules it is obvious that a ban is in order. Etiainen's post up there? Yeah I would have suspended him for that as well.
But there is also the whole "listening to the community" part. 'Neer said that he wants people to be comfortable here so the forums can be used as a support base. Well, good. I think that is a great idea. But to achieve that you have to do more than just getting the community in line. If there is someone at the top whom people are uncomfortable with then no one is gonna come here anyway, even if the forums really were a giant hugbox.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

CaptainCool said:


> As for the whole Chase being the in the lead thing:
> Your job isn't just to regulate the community (both of FA and FAF). You have to listen to them as well. And guess what? If the majority of the users don't want Chase as the lead moderator (personally I don't give a damn who it is as long as the job gets done) then keeping him and banning people who criticize the staff is a terrible thing to do. That is not how you manage a community.


I disagree, even though I also don't give a damn who it is as long as the job gets done. 
The most terrible decision would be to implement a community leader at the whim of the community. That's no governance, that's self-elected leadership.
The only permissible route would be for Dragoneer to implement someone he trusted to do a good job straight off the bat... and as has been explained, Chase was that sole person. 

-----

Effort posting! \:3/


Every ostensibly questionable decision made by the administrators here has been given sufficient justification, it really has. The moderator shakeup - that is, the removal of Arshes and others - was to reduce the hostility of the moderator team; everyone I've talked to has agreed with the changes. Caught in the crossfire were those moderators that were removed because of a consideration of conflicts of interest. These are all good management decisions, they really are.

A lack of communication led to panicked conclusions and dramatic, angry posts began to circulate. This was the community over-reacting but it could have been easily stifled by earlier and more granular elaboration of what the forum owner's plans were. However, people who posted inflammatory posts and attacked management were off their heads and infractions were the right thing to give out.

Furthermore, there should never be elaboration of what someone has been infracted for - ever. Even when it's public and obvious, or private and obscured.

Hopefully the recent wave of moderator action represents the very change in moderator culture that is required. It doesn't matter -who- said it, because if someone's acting in an antisocial manner, moderators need to act. Critiquing management decisions is fine, but FAF continues to confuse all of critique, satire, attack and affront as one big hegemonous mess. Regardless of who is being attacked - new poster, regular, or moderator - destructive posts need to be dealt with in order to promote the health of this community especially as a nexus for the fandom.

To wit, *the forum now needs harsh, quick-acting moderators* backed up by *lenient, empathetic, investigatory super-moderators*. 

Antisocial behaviour's gotta be sniped quickly and decisively to promote the health of the forum by a set of active moderators, while the rights to appeal and investigations need to be preserved and handled by personable higher-ups.

Personally, Chase's charm seems right up to the task as opposed to Arshes' selfserving irrationality, if you'll pardon my choice of words.


----------



## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Every ostensibly questionable decision made by the administrators here has been given sufficient justification, it really has. The moderator shakeup - that is, the removal of Arshes and others - was to reduce the hostility of the moderator team; everyone I've talked to has agreed with the changes. Caught in the crossfire were those moderators that were removed because of a consideration of conflicts of interest. These are all good management decisions, they really are.


This is a forum, not a corporation or a business. There's no money to be gained or lost from someone splitting their time between forums A and B. So to say there's a supposed conflict of interest sounds more like a lie than a justified reason. Nevermind that letting people go *without warning* apparently (according to what MLR posted) for something that, in retrospect, is underhanded especially when it was never a problem before. 

In other words, people were let go based on an assumption. Which isn't fair. 

Furthermore, why nix those people if the main problem was aggressive mods? It makes even less sense because their involvement elsewhere wasn't the problem and didn't really effect how they handled things. 



> A lack of communication led to panicked conclusions and dramatic, angry posts began to circulate. This was the community over-reacting but it could have been easily stifled by earlier and more granular elaboration of what the forum owner's plans were.


No duh. But apparently staff changes are "private" and can be justified with a vague reason



> Hopefully the recent wave of moderator action represents the very change in moderator culture that is required. It doesn't matter -who- said it, because if someone's acting in an antisocial manner, moderators need to act. Critiquing management decisions is fine, but FAF continues to confuse all of critique, satire, attack and affront as one big hegemonous mess. Regardless of who is being attacked - new poster, regular, or moderator - destructive posts need to be dealt with in order to promote the health of this community especially as a nexus for the fandom.


Which is weird this is coming along _now_ when the worst of it was 3-4 years ago.




> Antisocial behaviour's gotta be sniped quickly and decisively to promote the health of the forum by a set of active moderators, while the rights to appeal and investigations need to be preserved and handled by personable higher-ups.


I think you're confusing antisocial with hostile.


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## CaptainCool (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> I disagree, even though I also don't give a damn who it is as long as the job gets done.
> The most terrible decision would be to implement a community leader at the whim of the community. That's no governance, that's self-elected leadership.
> The only permissible route would be for Dragoneer to implement someone he trusted to do a good job straight off the bat... and as has been explained, Chase was that sole person.



As long as things go smoothly I am all for it. But with the way they first introduced Chase to the FA staff and that backfiring quite badly I am just a tiny bit concerned.
It's true that the community shouldn't "elect" their moderators though. That would be bad.

Also, the complete and utter lack of communication that you mentioned is something that needs to be fixed very badly. That is how this issue started and that is why it escalated within the community.


----------



## RTDragon (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm not sure considering with the recent incident just short of the new with the two people who wanted to help FA coding get treated pretty badly and just this month. And watching the less then stellar performance from the staff from the years on the main site best not to even bother merging the sites together till you fix the problems that many others have been warning you about for many years. And actions speak louder than words. What i see is even more of a complete mess then from a few years ago. Though i'm not really surprised anymore if things do go downhill from here as well as in the future.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

CaptainCool said:


> As long as things go smoothly I am all for it. But with the way they first introduced Chase to the FA staff and that backfiring quite badly I am just a tiny bit concerned.
> It's true that the community shouldn't "elect" their moderators though. That would be bad.
> 
> Also, the complete and utter lack of communication that you mentioned is something that needs to be fixed very badly. That is how this issue started and that is why it escalated within the community.



Honestly, I think letting the community elect staff may work for the better.

Why?

Think of it this way, if the staff here and on the main site know that if they don't do their jobs properly, we can 'elect' someone else to replace them


----------



## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> Honestly, I think letting the community elect staff may work for the better.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Think of it this way, if the staff here and on the main site know that if they don't do their jobs properly, we can 'elect' someone else to replace them



Yes but then it'd be basically a 'popufur' contest. Some mods may do their jobs well but because they might do them TOO well, people would get upset. It's like that in Utah where everyone is getting butthurt that a judge let gay marriage legal even though they said that he was the best for the job. Now he's an "activist" judge.

As much as I like the idea of electing...it might not work out all that well


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## chesse20 (Jan 3, 2014)

wow this is a preety awful idea? everything is fine on faf fix the mainsite!!!!!!! You're complaining about it not being newbie friendly but it weeds out all the scrubs and idiots (mostly) so we don't have to deal with them.


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## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

chesse20 said:


> wow this is a preety awful idea? everything is fine on faf fix the mainsite!!!!!!! You're complaining about it not being newbie friendly but it weeds out all the scrubs and idiots (mostly) so we don't have to deal with them.


Says the scrub.


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## chesse20 (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> Says the scrub.


Wow I just got wrecked x-x


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## Kalmor (Jan 3, 2014)

chesse20 said:


> wow this is a preety awful idea? everything is fine on faf fix the mainsite!!!!!!! You're complaining about it not being newbie friendly but it weeds out all the scrubs and idiots (mostly) so we don't have to deal with them.


Too many times have I seen a new user make _one_ FAF faux pas and get completely torn apart. That is unacceptable. The correct way to deal with the "scrubs" and "idiots" as you so call them is just to ignore them, or a simple and polite statement along the lines of "this isn't the right forum for that". No need to resort to insults.


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## RTDragon (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Too many times have I seen a new user make _one_ FAF faux pas and get completely torn apart. That is unacceptable. The correct way to deal with the "scrubs" and "idiots" as you so call them is just to ignore them, or a simple and polite statement along the lines of "this isn't the right forum for that". No need to resort to insults.



One problem is from what i've noticed even when you say it's polite certain tend to blow up and consider it an attack really easy. Though i am not surprised most people don't real the sticky threads on certain subsections of the forums they're there for a good reason to know what your getting into.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> One problem is from what i've noticed even when you say it's polite certain tend to blow up and consider it an attack really easy. Though i am not surprised most people don't real the sticky threads on certain subsections of the forums they're there for a good reason to know what your getting into.



Those people who blow up and over-react are acting inappropriately, but that doesn't change the fact that -anybody- who acts in an antisocial manner is acting inappropriately.

The existence of those stickies is something I've often complained about, and I've been really grateful to see the old "YOU CAN'T COME OUT AS FURRY" thread taken down. They represent an awful attempt to protect an awful culture. We -should- be a friendlier group.


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## RTDragon (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Those people who blow up and over-react are acting inappropriately, but that doesn't change the fact that -anybody- who acts in an antisocial manner is acting inappropriately.
> 
> The existence of those stickies is something I've often complained about, and I've been really grateful to see the old "YOU CAN'T COME OUT AS FURRY" thread taken down. They represent an awful attempt to protect an awful culture. We -should- be a friendlier group.



You be really surprised if you think that's acting inappropriately cause i've have seen that happen on other places i've been to. Though for you i would suggest you have a thicker skin since quite a few of those stickies apply common sense on other forums i've seen. And trying to be a friendlier group the damage has been done. Certain places do lash at certain fandoms more severely such as anime and furry fans that take their obsession too far.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> You be really surprised if you think that's acting inappropriately cause i've have seen that happen on other places i've been to. Though for you i would suggest you have a thicker skin since quite a few of those stickies apply common sense on other forums i've seen. And trying to be a friendlier group the damage has been done. Certain places do lash at certain fandoms more severely such as anime and furry fans that take their obsession too far.



It doesn't matter if the behaviour's ubiquitous when it's still inappropriate?

My personal sensibilities have no effect on that, either. Though I'm not sure you know me too well if you suggest I should get a thicker skin :[


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## RTDragon (Jan 3, 2014)

But you seem to complain a lot about stickies like what you said. I do not know why something like that would bother you so much. I simply don't make a big deal about something trivial such as that.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> The existence of those stickies is something I've often complained about, and I've been really grateful to see the old "YOU CAN'T COME OUT AS FURRY" thread taken down. They represent an awful attempt to protect an awful culture. We -should- be a friendlier group.


To be fair, it was you don't _have_ to come out, not you can't. 

Also how does a single thread dictate how friendly a forum is?


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## Fingerdawg (Jan 3, 2014)

Guys it's just a website.


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## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> But you seem to complain a lot about stickies like what you said. I do not know why something like that would bother you so much. I simply don't make a big deal about something trivial such as that.





Willow said:


> To be fair, it was you don't _have_ to come out, not you can't.
> 
> Also how does a single thread dictate how friendly a forum is?



It's not really a matter of something "bothering me so much" as being a really simple matter of how to change a culture for the better. So, I'm glad this point was brought up. The thread wasn't the problem, culture was.

Even the original poster of that thread talked about how they regretted their choices of wording. It was viciously written, making references throughout that belittled the intended audience, established the inferiority of anyone trying to find ways to deal with emotional issues, and was a classic example of hostility itself.

Yet the thread was filled with praise and admiration for the poster - not for handling the topic, but _for their hostility_. 

The thread's Stickied nature gave authority to this way of representing ideas, and users of the forum were able to belittle other users for years because they were fully permitted to directly link new users to the post - which was nothing more than a symbolic "fuck you" than any genuine attempt to inform people of why they didn't need to worry about the issue concerned.

T'was a symbol of a culture no longer desired, and generally speaking you tear down the propoganda after taking out El Presidente.

If the forum's administration continues to take down these negative beacons - by rewriting stickies, infracting immortal users, and establishing healthy policies - then we'll see a genuinely positive culture shift (in time). But you gotta start somewhere. That particular sticky was a fantastic starting point.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> I'm glad this point was brought up. The thread wasn't the problem, you see.
> 
> Even the original poster of that thread talked about how they regretted their choices of wording. It was viciously written, making references throughout that belittled the intended audience, established the inferiority of anyone trying to find ways to deal with emotional issues, and was a classic example of hostility itself.
> 
> ...


And yet no one was ever truly offended by it. People linked the thread simply because there was already a thread for it. The new person looked at it, and the discussion carried on from there.  

But whatever you say.

I'm just saying, one post out of many doesn't define much of anything.


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## Xaerun (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> It's not really a matter of something "bothering me so much" as being a really simple matter of how to change a culture for the better. So, I'm glad this point was brought up. The thread wasn't the problem, culture was.
> 
> Even the original poster of that thread talked about how they regretted their choices of wording. It was viciously written, making references throughout that belittled the intended audience, established the inferiority of anyone trying to find ways to deal with emotional issues, and was a classic example of hostility itself.
> 
> ...



Whilst this forum has always been perhaps the least furry furry forum, we are looking to move in the direction of avoiding outright hostility to the furrier members, yes. I'll admit I'm pretty amused at how the "immortal members" are struggling to understand they don't get a special set of rules, but that's FAF for you, I suppose.



Ainoko said:


> The problem with your statement is that there were *three possibly four admins (who admin both here and on FA) who were active on the forums during the migration who hardly communicated* and gave us lip service about what was going on. If anything, those admins should have been making regular updates, not hiding behind a wall of silence. Plus I have seen it mentioned in this thread that member suggestions and offers of help are not taken seriously, something that we do feel is the case.



My bad on that one, I've had spotty internet access for a while now. Would almost be worth having a "staff timeoff thread" that's viewable to users, huh.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 3, 2014)

Ozriel said:


> 2010-2011 was the worse bit, I can recall, which led to many users being overtly aggressive against some of the new members. Now, it has gotten better.


  In other words, we beat them into submission 
Never, EVER turn into a hugbox, FAF.


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## SkieFire (Jan 3, 2014)

I enjoyed the all out warfare!

The mainsite admins don't have all the answers and sadly they tend to be in the dark just as much as users sometimes. But sometimes even saying "we dont know but are trying to find out" is far better than silence. I just worry that people are too afraid to rock the boat.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

SkieFire said:


> I enjoyed the all out warfare!
> 
> The mainsite admins don't have all the answers and sadly they tend to be in the dark just as much as users sometimes. But sometimes even saying "we dont know but are trying to find out" is far better than silence. I just worry that people are too afraid to rock the boat.



Skie, during the migration we were begging for information, even a "the migration is taking longer than expected" message would have been welcomed rather than a stoney wall of silence. When you guys ignore us, fail to respond, etc all that is going to do is fuel rumors, sow dissent, drive members away, etc. Right now, it is too early to tell how much the migration hurt the main site.


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## Ozriel (Jan 3, 2014)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> In other words, we beat them into submission
> Never, EVER turn into a hugbox, FAF.



If it does, I'll eat my hat.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> You sure do forget a lot, don't you? Perhaps you've forgotten why Chase 'resigned' in 2011. What was it... What was the reason... Hmm... Oh! Right. *Insulted your dying parents*. But hey, he's trustworthy!


You know that line that you shouldn't cross? What you just did, dragging that out, was the equivalent of crossing the line with a monster truck.

What issues that Chase and I have are our own, and we've gotten into spats and disagreements in the past, but if you're going to base the majority of your judgement on leaked logs from an untrustworthy source who selectively shared only snippets of a heated conversation... then be my guest, but the issues between Chase and myself have been long resolved.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> But hey, he's trustworthy! And that's not even touching on *animal cruelty and admissions of zoophilia.*


  There's no shrugging this one off. Now we're going to be expected to  answer to such a disgrace? What in the actual _fuck_, Dragoneer?


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> There's no shrugging this one off. Now we're going to be expected to  answer to such a disgrace? What in the actual _fuck_, Dragoneer?



I have never been cruel to any animals or prosecuted for any offenses. My abilities as an administrator are completely irrelevant to these accusations and whatever my opinions may be.


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## Toshabi (Jan 3, 2014)

What was the point of wiping all the 20+ this's from this thread made a while ago in regards to this situation? And why disable the post entirely to prevent anyone from "this"ing it? It seems like you ironically just proved that thread true.


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## SkieFire (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> Skie, during the migration we were begging for information, even a "the migration is taking longer than expected" message would have been welcomed rather than a stoney wall of silence. When you guys ignore us, fail to respond, etc all that is going to do is fuel rumors, sow dissent, drive members away, etc. Right now, it is too early to tell how much the migration hurt the main site.



I fully agree. I should point out that I'm no longer a mainsite admin and don't have any powers on the forums (other than a wonderful hot pink name to indicate IRC staff). I'm a nobody, really, but an opinionated one at least.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> I have never been cruel to any animals




There are screen caps of you admitting otherwise.


----------



## Kalmor (Jan 3, 2014)

I personally don't like how people keep bringing up Chase's allegations/accusations as if it even matters in the current situation. All I'm concerned about is his ability as an admin, and so far, it has been pretty good.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> I personally don't like how people keep bringing up Chase's allegations/accusations as if it even matters in the current situation. All I'm concerned about is his ability as an admin, and so far, it has been pretty good.




It's comparable to appointing a convicted pedophile as an overseer to a child care forum. They may be 'cured' but that's still a huge nono. When you stick your dick in Lassie, you shouldn't be allowed to have any sort of moderation powers over such a community that has potential dog diddlers about it, because they can relate to those people and make biased choices. Of course, this has always been going on behind closed doors as the 2010 leak revealed.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 3, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> It's comparable to appointing a convicted pedophile as an overseer to a child care forum. They may be 'cured' but that's still a huge nono. When you stick your dick in Lassie, you shouldn't be allowed to have any sort of moderation powers over such a community that has potential dog diddlers about it, because they can relate to those people and make biased choices. Of course, this has always been going on behind closed doors as the 2010 leak revealed.


  But we're just a bunch of evil, oppressive moralfags, now aren't we?  How dare we judge someone based on their beautiful uniqueness...


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## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Names and faces on the internet, on this forum, are accountable only to the responsibilities given to them and wield only the powers they've been granted.

The opinions and history of the person using those names is irrelevant. Chase's administrative abilities have yet to be shown to be lacking.


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## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Toshabi said:


> It's comparable to appointing a convicted pedophile as an overseer to a child care forum. They may be 'cured' but that's still a huge nono. When you stick your dick in Lassie, you shouldn't be allowed to have any sort of moderation powers over such a community that has potential dog diddlers about it, because they can relate to those people and make biased choices. Of course, this has always been going on behind closed doors as the 2010 leak revealed.



Yeah, it's just like that. lol. Especially, the Lassie part. The debate is over. Stop trying to get blood from a stone, Toshabi.


----------



## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Well seeing as how admitting to illegal activity is against forum rules..

I'm not sure where there that was going.

What bothers me is the fact that several members have already found glaring problems with an idea he has but instead of actually listening to the concerns, continues to try and justify it and that I find a bit problematic. :I

Dredging up the past when it's not totally relevant doesn't help.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Aaaahahahahaha, holy shit.
Is this discussion really happening right now? Wtf.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

The morality debate is pointless; someone's history has no affect on their moderating skills, and the legality debate is just misdirection because there was no illegal activity.

So, what's up with this sudden burst of activity jumping onto provably false debating points that don't exist?

Damn, Willow, if you want to claim that someone doesn't make a good admin, try going after the administrative decisions they've made.


----------



## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Damn, Willow, if you want to claim that someone doesn't make a good admin, try going after the administrative decisions they've made.


I didn't say he isn't. I said something that bothered me was the fact that he essentially IGNORED the concern of several members.

 Not that "I think Chase wouldn't make a good admin because.." but "So far he's done something I myself have witnessed that causes concern"


----------



## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> You know that line that you shouldn't cross? What you just did, dragging that out, was the equivalent of crossing the line with a monster truck.


I don't think I'm the one who you should be saying that to, but that's just me.



> What issues that Chase and I have are our own, and we've gotten into spats and disagreements in the past, but if you're going to base the majority of your judgement on leaked logs from an untrustworthy source who selectively shared only snippets of a heated conversation... then be my guest, but the issues between Chase and myself have been long resolved.


Suit yourself on that one. As you might have gathered from the rest of what I posted, I have plenty of other reasons to distrust Chase besides that conversation, but I figured that you might need a refresher on why you in particular shouldn't.



Chase said:


> I have never been cruel to any animals or *prosecuted for any offenses*. My abilities as an administrator are completely irrelevant to these accusations and whatever my opinions may be.





Toshabi said:


> There are screen caps of you admitting otherwise.


Essentially Chase's argument is as long as he wasn't prosecuted, it wasn't a crime. I think that speaks volumes for his ability to effectively distinguish from right and wrong and therefore effectively administrate the site or forums.

But again it doesn't matter, the choice has already been made and it's clear it's not going to change. I've said my piece. If you want to aggressively deny that anything is wrong, that's your prerogative.


----------



## Ozriel (Jan 3, 2014)

Jezz...talk about explosions.
But please keep this topic on the actual topic. If you want to talk about mortality and whatnot, start your own thread. This isn't the place for it.


----------



## Toshabi (Jan 3, 2014)

Ozriel said:


> Jezz...talk about explosions.
> But please keep this topic on the actual topic. If you want to talk about mortality and whatnot, start your own thread. This isn't the place for it.




I'm sorry Ozzy, but




> *DO NOT Discuss or Engage in Unlawful Activity* - This includes illegal activity such as piracy, streaming copyright content, vandalism, threats of violence, gambling and games of chance (incl. raffles involving the exchange of real money), or discussion/usage of controlled substances. You will receive one (and only one) warning to leave such content off the site._* Further, users admitting or found to be engaging in bestiality or pedophilia will be removed from the site.*_






According to the rules of FA, my points are valid and are indeed on topic with what the concerns of FA's citizens are. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise.


If your post wasn't pointed towards me, then sorry.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Really now? 

*Let's discuss about changes. Oh you don't like it and was a bit vocal? On the ban list now

Thanks for the discussions and constructive opinions. We will now be handing out bans*

This thread is turning into a ban bait even worse than R & R. For a thread made for discussion, it feels more like every mod and staff is just looking for a chance to say "ooo you broke a rule +1 +1 +1 YAY CANDY temp ban".


----------



## Chase (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Essentially Chase's argument is as long as he wasn't prosecuted, it wasn't a crime. I think that speaks volumes for his ability to effectively distinguish from right and wrong and therefore effectively administrate the site or forums.



Nah, not my argument. If you wanted my argument, it would be: "If it's not a crime, then it's not a crime." In any case, your opinions have been noted, so we'll leave it at that because this isn't a criminology or social philosophy thread.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Chase said:


> Nah, not my argument. If you wanted my argument, it would be: "*If it's not a crime, then it's not a crime*." In any case, your opinions have been noted, so we'll leave it at that because this isn't a criminology or social philosophy thread.



Ah, see, this is what I'm talking about when I say distinguishing between right and wrong are a problem for you. *Opinion noted*.

The problem though is that this does directly impact your perceived ability to administrate fairly and effectively, which I think we've already seen since Christmas.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> Really now?
> 
> *Let's discuss about changes. Oh you don't like it and was a bit vocal? On the ban list now
> 
> ...


No, there has been plenty of discussion going on in the thread. See aleu's post at the beginning. However, we will _NOT_ tolerate users going over the line. We never have, and never will.

*If you make harassing, offensive, and down right nasty comments towards the staff you will have action taken against you.*

Discussing the changes is fine. Name calling and stirring up drama is not.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> No, there has been plenty of discussion going on in the thread. See aleu's post at the beginning. However, we will _NOT_ tolerate users going over the line. We never have, and never will.
> 
> *If you make harassing, offensive, and down right nasty comments towards the staff you will have action taken against you.*
> 
> Discussing the changes is fine. Name calling and stirring up drama is not.



Other thread, the mods overlook rules as they wish most of the time. Unless it's insanely obvious, you won't really do anything. It's always the "Yeah. Guise guise, have fun. Okay maybe now. Okay, still fun. Okay, maybe. Yeah, kay." kind of reaction.

And then this thread

"LOLNO BYE BYE BYE"

It's not just stirring up drama. This is expressing out concern. Chase case, from what I see, can pretty much be compared to that Zimbabwe man shooting a black kid and didn't get prosecuted for that. Sure he may receive the verdict that it is not a crime, but the majority of the community view toward this case is something completely different.

What makes a forum a forum? THe community.

And guess what am I seeing right now? One man's word is greater than that of the community and his guards are silencing everyone.


----------



## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

At the risk of getting a temp ban on this reply Ozzy, 'Neer and any other admins who are monitoring this thread, I have to agree with Toshabi on his post. I saw where Chase pretty much admitted to the charges put before him and nothing was done (posts 93 and 125 respectively). If that is not admitting to doing something that is against the TOS, then I don't know what is. I have taken the liberty of capping the respective posts in the event of the imminent deletion that may happen. 

I have no doubt that Chase is a competent admin but those two posts alone do make one pause.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> Other thread, the mods overlook rules as they wish most of the time. Unless it's insanely obvious, you won't really do anything. It's always the "Yeah. Guise guise, have fun. Okay maybe now. Okay, still fun. Okay, maybe. Yeah, kay." kind of reaction.
> 
> And then this thread
> 
> ...


For starters, can we please stop comparing chase to pedophiles and murderers? Its not appropriate at all.

Second, part of the changes going on here is cracking down on the abusive, insulting, and abrasive posting. We've mentioned this already. We're no longer tolerating people being assholes to staff, or other posters.

And no, we don't plan on making the forums all lovey-dovey and such. We're just tired of users being assholes.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> For starters, can we please stop comparing chase to pedophiles and murderers? Its not appropriate at all.


Yeah it's not like animal abuse _matters_, now is it? This is exactly the message you're all sending.


----------



## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> For starters, can we please stop comparing chase to pedophiles and murderers? Its not appropriate at all.
> 
> Second, part of the changes going on here is cracking down on the abusive, insulting, and abrasive posting. We've mentioned this already. We're no longer tolerating people being assholes to staff, or other posters.
> 
> And no, we don't plan on making the forums all lovey-dovey and such. We're just tired of users being assholes.



No one is doing that Mentova, as I poited out earlier, Chase pretty much admitted to what other said he did in two earlier posts here. To me that screams he did such things in the past. I am risking a temp ban for bringing this up and if I do get a temp ban, it will be worth it.


----------



## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> At the risk of getting a temp ban on this reply Ozzy, 'Neer and any other admins who are monitoring this thread, I have to agree with Toshabi on his post. I saw where Chase pretty much admitted to the charges put before him and nothing was done (posts 93 and 125 respectively). If that is not admitting to doing something that is against the TOS, then I don't know what is. I have taken the liberty of capping the respective posts in the event of the imminent deletion that may happen.
> 
> I have no doubt that Chase is a competent admin but those two posts alone do make one pause.


All of the allegations and claims date back to 2006-2007. I'm not going to take action on someone for something that happened over half a decade ago, and I'm not going to continually beating the bush. It's in the past, and they're not recent claims. If they were recent claims this would be different, but I'm not going to continually dig up dead horses.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> For starters, can we please stop comparing chase to pedophiles and murderers? Its not appropriate at all.
> 
> Second, part of the changes going on here is cracking down on the abusive, insulting, and abrasive posting. We've mentioned this already. We're no longer tolerating people being assholes to staff, or other posters.
> 
> And no, we don't plan on making the forums all lovey-dovey and such. We're just tired of users being assholes.



But this is NOT the view you are giving. What most people will see now, is that the forum is run using Dictatorship. Everyone expressed their concern that even I, who wasn't around during the Chase case, now knows of what happens and guess what, I'm scared shitless too to have someone like him up there as Mah Fuhrer, and this one doesn't get chased off the window, but chase all the heroes out instead.

Sure you're tired of the assholes but at the same time, you keep making yourself look like asshole.

Btw, image for image purpose.


----------



## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> All of the allegations and claims date back to 2006-2007. I'm not going to take action on someone for something that happened over half a decade ago, and I'm not going to continually beating the bush. It's in the past, and they're not recent claims. If they were recent claims this would be different, but I'm not going to continually dig up dead horses.



"Neer, so basically you are saying that if Joe Blow was accused of molesting a minor and was everything swept under the rug 6-7 years ago, then he is made an admin. Then everything is hunky dory? All that is going to do is stir up drama like what is going on right now.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> It's not just stirring up drama. This is expressing out concern.



Yeah, but, it _isn't_. 

Toshabi's posts weren't an expression of concern - and this is what I mentioned earlier when I said that FAF has "critique, satire, affront and attack all mixed up as one hegemonous mess". 

The posts here have been unneccessarily aggressive, patronisingly phrased, and I actually wanted to point out some of the problems with Toshabi's deleted post further up the page because it was *literally* a paragraph of ad hominem, aggression and speculative speaking-for-the-people rousing-up-the-imaginary-mob...

You can express concern, or you can try to incite a riot and set fire to the police, and one gets you listeners while the other gets you jail time.

Toshabi's posts were nothing *but* stirring up drama.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Yeah it's not like animal abuse _matters_, now is it? This is exactly the message you're all sending.


Now that's just putting words in my mouth. I never said animal abuse was ok. However, comparing chase to people who literally _rape and kill other people_ is more than a bit absurd.


Zeitzbach said:


> But this is NOT the view you are giving. What most people will see now, is that the forum is run using Dictatorship. Everyone expressed their concern that even I, who wasn't around during the Chase case, now knows of what happens and guess what, I'm scared shitless too to have someone like him up there as Mah Fuhrer, and this one doesn't get chased off the window, but chase all the heroes out instead.
> 
> Sure you're tired of the assholes but at the same time, you keep making yourself look like asshole.
> 
> Btw, image for image purpose.


This is just going in circles at this point. I've already stated that while things could've been handled better, we have no intention of turning this into furry nazi hugbox utopia.


----------



## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> "Neer, so basically you are saying that if Joe Blow was accused of molesting a minor and was everything swept under the rug 6-7 years ago, then he is made an admin. Then everything is hunky dory? All that is going to do is stir up drama like what is going on right now.


This was never swept under the rug. This has been discussed and discussed repeatedly, even on these very forums. Chase is a good admin, and his reputation as an admin is a good one. I can not change what happened in the past, but I can change what happens moving forward. I have no problem removing Chase were I to have any questions regarding his ethical stance on such things, but I'm not going to continually chastise someone for past issues.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> All of the allegations and claims date back to 2006-2007. I'm not going to take action on someone for something that happened over half a decade ago, and I'm not going to continually beating the bush. It's in the past, and they're not recent claims. If they were recent claims this would be different, but I'm not going to continually dig up dead horses.


Oh thats naaasty. The dead horse part.


----------



## Xaerun (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Yeah, but, it _isn't_.
> 
> Toshabi's posts weren't an expression of concern - and this is what I mentioned earlier when I said that FAF has "critique, satire, affront and attack all mixed up as one hegemonous mess".
> 
> ...


I'm pretty glad somebody gets it. Just cool your jets, dudes and dudettes. No need to flip out.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> "Neer, so basically you are saying that if Joe Blow was accused of molesting a minor and was everything swept under the rug 6-7 years ago, then he is made an admin. Then everything is hunky dory? All that is going to do is stir up drama like what is going on right now.


For fucks sake just let it go. Youre going nowhere with this argument.


----------



## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> All of the *allegations* and claims date back to 2006-2007. I'm not going to take action on someone for something that happened over half a decade ago, and I'm not going to continually beating the bush. It's in the past, and they're not recent claims. If they were recent claims this would be different, but I'm not going to continually dig up dead horses.



They aren't _allegations_ if he already admitted to them. These are things that he did, or at the very least things that he, himself, said that he did. "It's in the past", but the fact remains that they happened, and they're concerns.

*These are also things that he is unapologetic about and denies are concerns*.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> one gets you listeners while the other gets you jail time.



No, one gets you mods saying "Yeah I know, it feels right blah blah btw actually tl;dr" and another get you banned because they wanted to ban you.

You can try to come up with a long and beautiful posts as much as you want now but the image is already there. You can't erase it and if you do, the majority already knows about it.

There is no one listening. Instead, all I see, from the Oppressed PoV and from the "I dun care I'm just here for shits" PoV, is the responses are doing nothing but baiting for more drama just to get more people banned. Do you know why sometime, the mod, although called out, will actually remain silence and not say a thing that goes along the line "Yup we care but my opinion is still what I feel is right" sometime? Because this is the kind of shit you will get from a half-assed response.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

I guess what everyone is trying to say is that, if someone has admitted to illegal activity then they are banned, period. Chase, however, is not and seems that he's just given a free pass because I don't know.

That was also my concern when I asked why him.

EDIT: Or everyone can beat me to it. That's cool too.
:c


----------



## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> This was never swept under the rug. This has been discussed and discussed repeatedly, even on these very forums. Chase is a good admin, and his reputation as an admin is a good one. I can not change what happened in the past, but I can change what happens moving forward. I have no problem removing Chase were I to have any questions regarding his ethical stance on such things, but I'm not going to continually chastise someone for past issues.



Fine, then lets start fresh and unban everyone on the main site that you are moving forward. I am saying this as you are sure about Chase, then you should apply the same level of trust to those who were banned on the main site.



d.batty said:


> For fucks sake just let it go. Youre going nowhere with this argument.



I was only voicing my concerns, nothing else



Runefox said:


> They aren't _allegations_ if he already admitted to them. These are things that he did, or at the very least things that he, himself, said that he did. "It's in the past", but the fact remains that they happened, and they're concerns.



Yup, but see my reply to 'Neer


----------



## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> I guess what everyone is trying to say is that, if someone has admitted to illegal activity then they are banned, period. Chase, however, is not and seems that he's just given a free pass because I don't know.
> 
> That was also my concern when I asked why him.


Well if it's not admitted on the forums or something then Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/Â¯


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> They aren't _allegations_ if he already admitted to them. These are things that he did, or at the very least things that he, himself, said that he did. "It's in the past", but the fact remains that they happened, and they're concerns.
> 
> *These are also things that he is unapologetic about and denies are concerns*.


You too, just fucking stop. Your argument is going FUCKING NOWHERE OTHER THAN CIRCLES.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> You too, just fucking stop. Your argument is going FUCKING NOWHERE OTHER THAN CIRCLES.



I don't think shouting "stop" is going to solve anything either.

I know this post is as pointless as yours but yeah just sayin'


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> You too, just fucking stop. Your argument is going FUCKING NOWHERE OTHER THAN CIRCLES.



If this kind of thing is acceptable and easy to let go, then I guess Bush should be up as the next president candidate and bitching about his shitty years is the same as going in circles.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> I don't think shouting "stop" is going to solve anything either.
> 
> I know this post is as pointless as yours but yeah just sayin'


Sorry but its the same shit every fucking post they make. Things are trying to be resolved here but its kinda hard when its going around in circles. Im just sick of the repetitiveness.


----------



## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> You too, just fucking stop. Your argument is going FUCKING NOWHERE OTHER THAN CIRCLES.


The entire thread has been one circle after another.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> If this kind of thing is acceptable and easy to let go, then I guess Bush should be up as the next president candidate and bitching about his shitty years is the same as going in circles.



It's -nothing to do with his capacity as an admin-, that's the thing that's making you go in circles. The debate ended when it was discovered that ad hominems aren't sufficient to call time on someone. 

The only thing that's going in circles is the thought process that's making a particular group of users continually return to thinking that it is.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> Sorry but its the same shit every fucking post they make. Things are trying to be resolved here but its kinda hard when its going around in circles. Im just sick of the repetitiveness.



It has an end. Sadly it's only going in circle because the other side keep gluing the end and the start together every time it snaps to make sure it doesn't reach the right conclusion.



BRN said:


> It's -nothing to do with his capacity as an admin-,  that's the thing that's making you go in circles. The debate ended when  it was discovered that ad hominems aren't sufficient to call time on  someone.
> 
> The only thing that's going in circles is the thought process that's  making a particular group of users continually return to thinking that  it is.




The This is constantly being nuked if you know who is mentioned. If you are removing everything the opposing side has to say and everyone that agrees with it, the people are going to be questioning your capacity.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> It's -nothing to do with his capacity as an admin-, that's the thing that's making you go in circles. The debate ended when it was discovered that ad hominems aren't sufficient to call time on someone.
> 
> The only thing that's going in circles is the thought process that's making a particular group of users continually return to thinking that it is.



The thing is after it was admitted he shouldn't even be on the site. Let alone be an admin on it. That's the point.


----------



## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> I guess what everyone is trying to say is that, if someone has admitted to illegal activity then they are banned, period. Chase, however, is not and seems that he's just given a free pass because I don't know.
> 
> That was also my concern when I asked why him.


Here's the issue as I see. I'm not defending Chase's past. Hell, we all make mistakes and do stupid things. However, at the time, what was posted was NOT in violation FA's rules. Period. Now, everybody seems to want to call out anything has done NOW and go "OH LOOK, HE JUST VIOLATED THE RULES!" and attempt to keep dredging up the past to force us to remove him on a technicality.

I'm not playing that game. People are trying to twist rules around to make current discussion of past events a bannable offense. I wouldn't tolerate that to a user, and I'm damn sure not tolerating that to staff. If people don't like the decision there are other sites out there that they can go to, because I'm not playing petty technicality games on something that happened 7 or 8 years ago, or even further.

Chase has been staff on FA for years, and unless something else happens, he's not going anywhere. If you can not accept that, and judge him based on who is today. We all do things in the past we regret. All of us. Every. Last. One. There comes a point where we all need to be able to move on.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jan 3, 2014)

Well fuck it then, fuck it all.
Have fun on your endless merry go round.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> Well fuck it then, fuck it all.
> Have fun on your endless merry go round.



Never knew the fur suit nose color is brown.

This shit is even worse than politic.


----------



## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> The thing is after it was admitted he shouldn't even be on the site. Let alone be an admin on it. That's the point.



I just don't see the logic here. though - because there isn't any. There's no connection between the events of seven years past and Chase's current administrative ability.

Let's recap the thread so far; folks have come in with a whole host of outrages and complaints that have been shown one after another to have been dealt with by the admins in a justified way in accordance with information that the users just didn't have on hand at the time. Admin reshuffling, lack of communication - there were reasons; some were good, some were poor, but no bad decisions were made.

So now, the only thing that's getting hammered over and over is that someone's past choices - and when I say 'past', I mean 'really past' - are proof of a 'current' character flaw so gaping and huge that, despite a "good" track record as an admin, we should remove the only person currently trusted by the owner of the site to run it from, you know, running it? I can't see this as anything other than tantamount to harassment. There has yet to be shown a single valid complaint about Chase's choices as an administrative official and, better yet, he's been nothing but charming and tolerant - and especially, shown resilience and character strength (not weakness) in the midst of this ridiculous storm.

If the admin team were led by this guy I'm damn sure their ability to do a good job would be nothing but further enhanced.


----------



## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> It's -nothing to do with his capacity as an admin-, that's the thing that's making you go in circles. The debate ended when it was discovered that ad hominems aren't sufficient to call time on someone.



Excuse me, but would you be OK with a sex offender in a position of power? I seem to recall a famous person once being the subject of national debate over something less serious than this some time ago... Who was that? Hmm... Oh! Right. The *President of the United States*, having _consensual_ relations with a secretary, which caused much of the country to doubt his integrity as a leader, particularly when he publicly denied it after being faced with evidence.


----------



## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Here's the issue as I see. I'm not defending Chase's past. Hell, we all make mistakes and do stupid things. However, at the time, what was posted was NOT in violation FA's rules. Period. Now, everybody seems to want to call out anything has done NOW and go "OH LOOK, HE JUST VIOLATED THE RULES!" and attempt to keep dredging up the past to force us to remove him on a technicality.
> 
> I'm not playing that game. People are trying to twist rules around to make current discussion of past events a bannable offense. I wouldn't tolerate that to a user, and I'm damn sure not tolerating that to staff. If people don't like the decision there are other sites out there that they can go to, because I'm not playing petty technicality games on something that happened 7 or 8 years ago, or even further.
> 
> Chase has been staff on FA for years, and unless something else happens, he's not going anywhere. If you can not accept that, and judge him based on who is today. We all do things in the past we regret. All of us. Every. Last. One. There comes a point where we all need to be able to move on.



I do agree 'Neer, but like I said in reply to you earlier, if you are giving Chase a second chance, then the same opportunity should be given to members who were perma-banned the past 6-7 years. It's only fair. If they fuck up that's all folks, no more chances.


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Admin reshuffling, lack of communication - there were reasons; some were good, some were poor, *but no bad decisions were made.*




Are
you
Serious?
Like

Really?







Holy shit banning out the majority of the forum when you can is NOT a bad decision.


----------



## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Chase has been staff on FA for years, and unless something else happens, he's not going anywhere. If you can not accept that, and judge him based on who is today. We all do things in the past we regret. All of us. Every. Last. One. There comes a point where we all need to be able to move on.



You didn't do anything about it *then*, so therefore it's time to move on? He's a different person, you say?



Chase said:


> "If it's not a crime, then it's not a crime."



Oh. At least he... Still doesn't think he did anything wrong? Wow, he sure has... Not-changed...


----------



## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Here's the issue as I see. I'm not defending Chase's past. Hell, we all make mistakes and do stupid things. However, at the time, what was posted was NOT in violation FA's rules. Period. Now, everybody seems to want to call out anything has done NOW and go "OH LOOK, HE JUST VIOLATED THE RULES!" and attempt to keep dredging up the past to force us to remove him on a technicality.
> 
> I'm not playing that game. People are trying to twist rules around to make current discussion of past events a bannable offense. I wouldn't tolerate that to a user, and I'm damn sure not tolerating that to staff. If people don't like the decision there are other sites out there that they can go to, because I'm not playing petty technicality games on something that happened 7 or 8 years ago, or even further.
> 
> Chase has been staff on FA for years, and unless something else happens, he's not going anywhere. If you can not accept that, and judge him based on who is today. We all do things in the past we regret. All of us. Every. Last. One. There comes a point where we all need to be able to move on.



So then it IS true of what happened?

I'm just saying that if it were a regular user, this probably wouldn't be tolerated at all and I don't think would be allotted a second chance because they were sorry. Unless there are users coming back from their bans saying "i'm sorry, I changed this time" that I'm not aware of.


----------



## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Excuse me, but would you be OK with a sex offender in a position of power? I seem to recall a famous person once being the subject of national debate over something less serious than this some time ago... Who was that? Hmm... Oh! Right. The *President of the United States*, having _consensual_ relations with a secretary, which caused much of the country to doubt his integrity as a leader, particularly when he publicly denied it after being faced with evidence.


And yet that same man took us to a time of prosperity and with an amazing surplus of cash and a balanced budget.

Your point?


----------



## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Excuse me, but would you be OK with a sex offender in a position of power? I seem to recall a famous person once being the subject of national debate over something less serious than this some time ago... Who was that? Hmm... Oh! Right. The *President of the United States*, having _consensual_ relations with a secretary, which caused much of the country to doubt his integrity as a leader, particularly when he publicly denied it after being faced with evidence.


Chase is not the president of the united states and nor is he subject to the united states bizarre views on sexuality while on an internet forum about animal people.

Please stop with the strawmen arguments guys.


Zeitzbach said:


> Are
> you
> Serious?
> Like
> ...


Uhhh... the majority of the forum isn't banned?


----------



## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Chase has been staff on FA for years, and unless something else happens, he's not going anywhere. If you can not accept that, and judge him based on who is today. We all do things in the past we regret. All of us. Every. Last. One. There comes a point where we all need to be able to move on.



At this point my concern with Chase isn't with his past, but more with what he wants to do in the future, mainly intergrating the FAF into FA so that you only need one user name and password. To me this is a bad move because if the forum becomes unaccessable due to a catastrophic hard drive failure like a couple years ago FA will not recover. I'm fine with the main site and the forum sharing rules but the two must remain seperate from each other.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 3, 2014)

thoron said:


> At this point my concern with Chase isn't with his past, but more with what he wants to do in the future, mainly intergrating the FAF into FA so that you only need one user name and password. To me this is a bad move because if the forum becomes unaccessable do to a catastrophic hard drive failure like a couple years ago FA will not recover. I'm fine with the main site and the forum sharing rules but the two must remain seperate from each other.


You really think that it's about convenience?


----------



## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Uhhh... the majority of the forum isn't banned?



Yeah, the majority of the forum isn't banned. The forum is so active. Many new threads and posts are being made each day and it is enjoyable to read all the new response.


----------



## Williamca (Jan 3, 2014)

thoron said:


> At this point my concern with Chase isn't with his past, but more with what he wants to do in the future, mainly intergrating the FAF into FA so that you only need one user name and password. To me this is a bad move because if the forum becomes unaccessable do to a catastrophic hard drive failure like a couple years ago FA will not recover. I'm fine with the main site and the forum sharing rules but the two must remain seperate from each other.



I would assume that was just an idea he tossed out. While it would be nice to share the two (maybe they just swap the same passwords between them, and username, email, that such info) but stores it on its own server. Meaning it's seperated from downtime when FA goes down still.


----------



## Xaerun (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> Are
> you
> Serious?
> Like
> ...


A few of the extremely vocal regulars doesn't really constitute a majority.
http://youtu.be/miVoe7U6Lx4?t=24s

edit: Unless you count spambots but those guys are like _super_ hard to have a conversation with buy viagra now extra cheap ships internationally


----------



## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Aleu said:


> So then it IS true of what happened?
> 
> I'm just saying that if it were a regular user, this probably wouldn't be tolerated at all and I don't think would be allotted a second chance because they were sorry. Unless there are users coming back from their bans saying "i'm sorry, I changed this time" that I'm not aware of.


If I legitimately thought Chase had sex with a dog or molested an animal he would NOT be staff. 

End of story.


----------



## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> Yeah, the majority of the forum isn't banned. The forum is so active. Many new threads and posts are being made each day and it is enjoyable to read all the new response.



Uhhh, it is active? I've seen plenty of new posts and threads today. Not to mention there are like, what, 5 or 6 people temp banned? if that?

This is absurd. :|


----------



## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> Yeah, the majority of the forum isn't banned. The forum is so active. Many new threads and posts are being made each day and it is enjoyable to read all the new response.



FAF has been 'meh' at best for a while before the outage. The most activity was, you know, during the outage. Then it went back to boring after that. Many people left well before that time.
So with a site with thousands of registered users that are not banned, it's hardly a majority.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Mentova said:


> Chase is not the president of the united states and nor is he subject to the united states bizarre views on sexuality while on an internet forum about animal people.
> 
> Please stop with the strawmen arguments guys.


I'm comparing one lesser offence to a much greater one against two people in a position of power and the public eye (obviously with Chase it's much lower key) to demonstrate why, exactly, people might be upset over the things that Chase has done in the past, because this seems to be a major stumbling block for both Dragoneer and some other users.



Dragoneer said:


> And yet that same man took us to a time of prosperity and with an amazing surplus of cash and a balanced budget.
> 
> Your point?


Ah, see, now THIS is a strawman argument; Trying to imply that the similar situation will have a similar outcome.



Dragoneer said:


> If I legitimately thought Chase had sex with a dog or molested an animal he would NOT be staff.
> 
> End of story.



Except he did, and admitted to it? And this is exactly the point we're trying to make?


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Xaerun said:


> A few of the extremely vocal regulars doesn't really constitute a majority.



Glad to know the minority is the one that makes the forum active and alive. Can't wait to see what the majority are capable of outside of creating one "HI I'm new" thread and never reappear in front of us again.



Mentova said:


> Uhhh, it is active? I've seen plenty of new posts  and threads today. Not to mention there are like, what, 5 or 6 people  temp banned? if that?
> 
> This is absurd.



A ban is the only thing preventing people from wanting to post now? Most of the regular silently disappeared even without the bans. How can you be blind to something as obvious as this?


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## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

thoron said:


> At this point my concern with Chase isn't with his past, but more with what he wants to do in the future, mainly intergrating the FAF into FA so that you only need one user name and password.


It's something we discussed, but probably will not do, as there's multiple security reasons not to. And that's not Chase's idea, but something that's been in discussion in the past many a time.

In the end, nothing changes on this forum without my permission, so if Chase does something you disagree with, take that issue up with me. Chase discusses his actions through me first, and in the end, I have the final yay or nay on it.

The only thing we have decided on is that vbulletion sucks, we're moving away from it but we don't know to what yet.


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## thoron (Jan 3, 2014)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> You really think that it's about convenience?



I already know there's the concern about getting banned from the mainsite of a something here if the two should be merged. 

I'm also looking at from the perspective that should the forum go down because FA has a catastrophic hard drive failure again it won't recover because the users won't have the forums to come to either.



Dragoneer said:


> It's something we discussed, but probably will not do, as there's multiple security reasons not to. And that's not Chase's idea, but something that's been in discussion in the past many a time.
> 
> In the end, nothing changes on this forum without my permission, so if Chase does something you disagree with, take that issue up with me. Chase discusses his actions through me first, and in the end, I have the final yay or nay on it.
> 
> The only thing we have decided on is that vbulletion sucks, we're moving away from it but we don't know to what yet.



Okay, I was just concerned about that because he mentioned it was something he wanted to do in the future.

Whats wrong with VBulletion though? Its always seemed to work stably or has something changed? Not complaining, just curious as to how it sucks.


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## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Ah, see, now THIS is a strawman argument; Trying to imply that the similar situation will have a similar outcome.



It's kind of fruitless to reply to what you said with anything but wit considering that your question itself was a farcical appeal to emotion. What I 'want' out of people who are in a position of responsibility is for them to do their jobs effectively. 

I don't care about their personal opinions.

The mismatch in the system of politics that leads to people caring about politician's opinions rather than how they do their jobs is what leads to some pretty shitty politicians.



Runefox said:


> Except he did, and admitted to it? And this is exactly the point we're trying to make?



Is he -admitting- to it?


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## Mentova (Jan 3, 2014)

thoron said:


> I already know there's the concern about getting banned from the mainsite of a something here if the two should be merged.
> 
> I'm also looking at from the perspective that should the forum go down because FA has a catastrophic hard drive failure again it won't recover because the users won't have the forums to come to either.


I'm no expert on this, but if the mainsite goes down I don't necessarily think the forums would too. It would just be that they share login info. I also don't think that a forum ban would equal a mainsite ban and vise versa, kinda like how with WoW a forum ban doesn't mean you're banned from the game.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

d.batty said:


> Well fuck it then, fuck it all.
> Have fun on your endless merry go round.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPAJ6h2_r34


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## Williamca (Jan 3, 2014)

Too many people are grasping at straws and looking into wording too much. Everything Ainoko and Runefox claim have one meaning and are a definite guilt/denying do not see, nor do they want to see that there is two or even more meanings. I was going to do a long post on it but...it's just not worth it as they will continue.

I just didn't know it was illegal and a crime to have views/opinions and express them somewhere. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them illegal.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Is he -admitting- to it?



Uh. What.

He admitted to it in the past and he is not denying it now, rather saying vaguely that he doesn't think he did anything wrong.


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## Willow (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Admin reshuffling, lack of communication - there were reasons; some were good, some were poor, but no bad decisions were made.


I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or you're just not thinking but usually poor reasons lead to bad decisions :|


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## Kalmor (Jan 3, 2014)

The amount of headdesks I have performed while reading this thread is giving me a concussion. :V

We're just going in circles at this point.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Williamca said:


> I just didn't know it was illegal and a crime to have views/opinions and express them somewhere. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them illegal.



If you're referring to the zoophilia bit, it's "illegal" as far as FA goes:



> â€¢DO NOT Discuss or Engage in Unlawful Activity - This includes illegal activity such as piracy, streaming copyright content, vandalism, threats of violence, gambling and games of chance (incl. raffles involving the exchange of real money), or discussion/usage of controlled substances. You will receive one (and only one) warning to leave such content off the site. *Further, users admitting or found to be engaging in bestiality or pedophilia will be removed from the site*.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Williamca said:


> Too many people are grasping at straws and looking into wording too much. Everything Ainoko and Runefox claim have one meaning and are a definite guilt/denying do not see, nor do they want to see that there is two or even more meanings. I was going to do a long post on it but...it's just not worth it as they will continue.
> 
> I just didn't know it was illegal and a crime to have views/opinions and express them somewhere. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them illegal.



I don't think it's the views that they're concerned about.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> We're just going in circles at this point.



It's not just going in circles when people are spreading the contradiction and making them way too obvious.

Like, I was sent this and bam

http://i.imgur.com/QKh2eA3.png

And I just sit there and be all "Hurrrrrrrrr"


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 3, 2014)

Who was that one admin with the dragon fursona who left a while back? I'm just glad they're not around for this thread - the pain would be unbearable.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Williamca said:


> Too many people are grasping at straws and looking into wording too much. Everything Ainoko and Runefox claim have one meaning and are a definite guilt/denying do not see, nor do they want to see that there is two or even more meanings. I was going to do a long post on it but...it's just not worth it as they will continue.
> 
> I just didn't know it was illegal and a crime to have views/opinions and express them somewhere. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them illegal.



I said my piece and to 'Neer and dropped it. I also suggested that if 'Neer is giving Chase a 2nd chance, then he should do the same to all banned members since the site has been up and running, it's only fair. This can be his one freebie to those banned members letting them know that if they fuck up, then they will have nope hope what so ever of getting back on the main site.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Who was that one admin with the dragon fursona who left a while back? I'm just glad they're not around for this thread.



Carenath?

How do I remember I don't know


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## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Zeitzbach said:


> http://i.imgur.com/QKh2eA3.png
> 
> And I just sit there and be all "Hurrrrrrrrr"


http://puu.sh/68Pwc.png Hope this helps.


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## Kalmor (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> If you're referring to the zoophilia bit, it's "illegal" as far as FA goes:


Do you know what the rules were in circa 2007/10? I think those were later additions (correct me if I'm wrong).


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## BRN (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Do you know what the rules were in circa 2007/10? I think those were later additions (correct me if I'm wrong).



Aye, Dragoneer confirmed the content posted was not against the rules at the time.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> http://puu.sh/68Pwc.png Hope this helps.



I guess uploading a pic of me making Meth and then removing it will also remove the title "Meth Maker" from my head as well.


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## Runefox (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Do you know what the rules were in circa 2007/10? I think those were later additions (correct me if I'm wrong).





BRN said:


> Aye, Dragoneer confirmed the content posted was not against the rules at the time.



Even if they were instated later, we know right now from this very thread that Chase is unapologetic about it and therefore is not in a position to fairly enforce that rule. This casts doubt on his ability to enforce *any* rule without bias.


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## Kalmor (Jan 3, 2014)

BRN said:


> Aye, Dragoneer confirmed the content posted was not against the rules at the time.


Exactly. Now everyone who thinks Chase should be banned is doing it for the sake of arguing.


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## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Runefox said:


> Uh. What.
> 
> He admitted to it in the past and he is not denying it now, rather saying vaguely that he doesn't think he did anything wrong.


Since you can't get off the merry go round, fine, let's play.

Even if he did (IF!) it wouldn't have been illegal (Florida did not have an anti-bestiality law until 2011), NOR would it have been against FA policy at the time (the rule didn't come out until later). The entire argument comes down to an ideal of morality and ethics, nothing more. No rules, nor laws, were ever broken. BUT, I still don't believe any of that happened, and I stand by Chase, and I do not believe he engaged in such activity.

Now, what do I know of Chase? I know he's gone out of his way to help people, sacrificed time, money, couch space to help people get back on their feet, helped others when they down. He's done more for people than most, and never once -- NEVER ONCE -- asked for anything in return. Have he and I had our spats in the past? Yes. Hell, friends fight. We've had some highs and lows, but when it comes down to it, I'd rather have 10 more people like Chase any damn day of the week.

If you look for flaws in any person you will find them. You find plenty of them. But you also have to weigh in the good as well, as what people do right can greatly outweigh mistakes. Now, I'm tired of playing the circular logic game. You disagree. You do not like him. FINE. *We get that. *I even bolded that for you since that seems to be your thing.

If you can not accept Chase as an admin or mod then I'm sorry. He's not going anywhere.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Exactly. Now everyone who thinks Chase should be banned is doing it for the sake of arguing.



Raptos, I said my piece and dropped it


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 3, 2014)

Raptros said:


> Exactly. Now everyone who thinks Chase should be banned is doing it for the sake of arguing.



It is not about being banned now. Neer said that if Chase is known to be a molestor, he wouldn't have been hired.

It is then made known.

See there? The condition is already *fulfilled*. Why the hell does the year matter now? Next time, write it as

"If I had known that Chase ???? on the day that star lined together and formed a beam of light that formed a picture of a pikachu pegasus, I would have not hired him" instead.


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## Aleu (Jan 3, 2014)

As someone that lives in Florida, just because we didn't have an official bestiality law, it is still illegal as it fell under abuse of animals.

However people argued and argued for a specific thing for it.

Just pointing that out


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## Dragoneer (Jan 3, 2014)

Ainoko said:


> I said my piece and to 'Neer and dropped it. I also suggested that if 'Neer is giving Chase a 2nd chance, then he should do the same to all banned members since the site has been up and running, it's only fair. This can be his one freebie to those banned members letting them know that if they fuck up, then they will have nope hope what so ever of getting back on the main site.


In all fairness, I do give banned members a chance. Some do well, and come back strong and I've never had a problem since. Some turn around and bite me on the finger for giving them a second chance. But I believe people can learn from their mistakes.


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## Ainoko (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> In all fairness, I do give banned members a chance. Some do well, and come back strong and I've never had a problem since. Some turn around and bite me on the finger for giving them a second chance. But I believe people can learn from their mistakes.



I understand, then try this one more time, that is all I am suggesting. Make it very clear to those member that if they fuck up again, not only will you premaban them again, you will make their page vanish like you did with one particular member. Hell he should be given a 2nd chance as well. 

I will promise you 'Neer I will publicly apologize if more than 25% gets their permaban reinstated.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm still shaking my head at a lot of this. Myself? I'm an avid advocate of proper animal care. I advocate giving animals proper respect, and the proper care of exotics, as well as non exotics such as cats and dogs. I've had cats, dogs, birds, hamsters, and I have experience working with owls, rats, marsh life, snakes, and even kids. There is nothing that has ever been shown to me to suggest that any one on team has ever actually engaged in animal abuse.

Those who know me also know that I, along with several other people on staff who used to frequent those discussions of yore, have no tolerance for the act of using animals as sexual things. Now, what blows my mind is that people who are quick to dredge bits and bobbles from the past from second or third party sources seem to think that somehow they know more than myself, or others on staff. Just as people are quick to assume based on half a story, that we are abusive and censoring people for simply having opinions. You know what, I get it. We can't change minds can we? We are here to do a job. We are going to do that job. We are not going to continue to go in circles here. After speaking with staff it has been determined that we are going to shut down this thread. Please do not make new threads trying to dig up the same circle that we've been chasing here. 

One last thing, someone asked about why we want to move away from VBulletin. The reason for this is simple, we want a more flexible platform that is also updated more regularly. Now please keep in mind this doesn't mean the whole place will change over night sometime soon. We are however, looking into our options. We will of course let people know well in advance and open a thread to accept questions, concerns so that everyone knows what to expect if and when we do make a change.

Again remember, this is not something happening ASAP, right away. We are thinking about this and exploring it.


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