# Writing cliches you find annoying.



## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Just some off hand chit chat, which cliches in stories, movies, and any form of media do you find the most mind mumblingly irritating or you just cannot stand?


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## Simo (Jun 24, 2019)

Works that have too many characters, seemingly for the sake of having huge numbers of characters. I found Game of Thrones an insufferable example of this; characters died before you could even recall their names. Also, works that are overly long and windy, for the sake of being long.

I wish the ghost of Ernest Hemingway or Raymond Carver could edit Lord of The Rings


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Simo said:


> Works that have too many characters, seemingly for the sake of having huge numbers of characters. I found Game of Thrones an insufferable example of this; characters died before you could even recall their names. Also, works that are overly long and windy, for the sake of being long.
> 
> I wish the ghost of Ernest Hemingway or Raymond Carver could edit Lord of The Rings



Ah, well I'm guilty of that, but it's mostly because my story is a war story and I like having a lot of ideas. Sadly, I often have too many ideas. Still, sometimes redshirt and mook deaths are needed, especially in stories where there's a massive amount of violence and bloodshed in them. The problem with Game of Thrones is that characters are often killed off at random for shock value. Not knowing the guy next to you in a trench is very common in war stories, but in Game of Thrones you know it's Martin's way of getting shock value.

A lord of the Rings sequel would be nice. 

I also have some pet peeves in cliches. Some I don't like.

.The Chosen One: No, just no. 

.Beauty equals goodness: Most of my own works has plenty of lovely and handsome villains. Yes, you can be hot and the heroine or hero, but so can someone being evil. 

.Evil Brits: Now, I know the British accent is awesome when sounding evil. I also know that it can be very done quite well, but I like to portray all types of people as evil. Especially "Americans" in my story with my characters Grief and Scylla. 

.Forced romance, of any kind.

.Abusive parents: This really pisses me off, yes. It's realistic, but it's also annoying.

.Evil parents who are dicks:  I like the "evil parents want good kids" trope, basically where the villain wants something better for their child. It's really humanizing of a character.

.The cocky anime prodigy, or basically prodigies in general. I just don't like that.


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## ManicTherapsid (Jun 24, 2019)

Looking in the mirror to describe a character in a first person narrative. I did it though lol


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

LordChestnut said:


> Looking in the mirror to describe a character in a first person narrative. I did it though lol



Yeah, I really struggle with character description while maintaining a decent plot and narrative, but I never really have them look in a mirror.


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## Tyno (Jun 24, 2019)

Not using asterisks :V


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Tyno said:


> Not using asterisks :V



That's not a literal literary cliche.


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## Tyno (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> That's not a literal literary cliche.


No it's a joke.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Tyno said:


> No it's a joke.



It's not funny.


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## Keefur (Jun 25, 2019)

I don't really think that there is a literary cliche that is annoying if properly handled.  There is a difference between what is going on in a story that is confortable to the reader and actually having the author be a hack.  Personally, I think certain types of stories are annoying, but it is more because of what the story is rather than just the content.  For example, the movie Anger Management is very irritating to me because it keeps me feeling off balance and uncomfortable.  The dialogue os all right, but the situations in the movie make me feel bad.


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## Catdog (Jun 25, 2019)

I have an intense and unreasonable dislike of writers (especially vampire writers) who describe skin as "milky white" or "alabaster" like my dude milk is not sexy and I don't think you even know what alabaster is. "Ivory" at least makes sense but let's be real that's dated as hell too because ivory is also extremely illegal to own


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## Liseran Thistle (Jun 25, 2019)

"My name is Jane, and I'm not a very attractive looking girl. I have BORING brown hair, and BORING brown eyes, and my skin isn't tanned so I'm not very popular with the guys. I'm NoT lIkE OthEr GirLS, I like reading and watching tv intead of doing makeup which is probably why boys don't like me as much they like those FAKE, PLASTIC barbies."

^I fucking loathe any YA book that starts off with the MC talking about how she's so unpopular because of her boring features, whilst simultaneously tearing down other girls she's never spoken too simply because boys like them more than they like her. She goes on about how she'll never understand how boys can't possibly like a girl like her who reads instead of talking on the phone all night. 

The truth is that girls like these in actual real life aren't cute, and they're not all nice. They're bitches, and that's why boys don't like them. Idk jane, maybe if you spent less time calling cheerleaders sluts and judging them for wearing skirts, people would actually wanna be your friend. You ever think that maybe if you weren't such a cold hearted bitch to everyone, you might actually get asked out? Has it ever occured to you that if you ever thought about putting even a bit of effort into your appearance instead of dressing in a jeans and t-shirt, you'd get a few more looks coming your way?? You can't just set in cafes by yourself with classic literature and expect some dude to just come and sweep you off your feet in real life, because in real life you have to actually put effort into your life in order to seem attractive to people. You have to socialize, and look nice, and take showers, and not act like a huge asshole to people who are different than you. 

I also hate when the author makes two girls who have never seen each other before suddenly hate each other for seemingly no reason, and it's always because one is a "Slutty cheerleader who wears makeup and skirts, and who likes to flirt with boys." and the other is a "Carefree wallflower whose never been on a date, and who likes books more than phones." Real girls don't act that way. That's terrible writing.


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## TallmanClay (Jun 25, 2019)

Beauty as a personality trait. I hate being constantly reminded how beautiful a character is.

I also don't like love triangles. It makes me resent the main character who is usually at the center of the triangle.

In long TV shows, in order to make up for dwindling plot, they often like to split up couples and re-pair them with someone new. Over and over and over. This is probably the one that I hate most. I like consistent couples that stay together so I can watch them be cute.


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## theWiitch (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Ah, well I'm guilty of that, but it's mostly because my story is a war story and I like having a lot of ideas. Sadly, I often have too many ideas. Still, sometimes redshirt and mook deaths are needed, especially in stories where there's a massive amount of violence and bloodshed in them. The problem with Game of Thrones is that characters are often killed off at random for shock value. Not knowing the guy next to you in a trench is very common in war stories, but in Game of Thrones you know it's Martin's way of getting shock value.
> 
> A lord of the Rings sequel would be nice.
> 
> ...



I feel this list on a spiritual level. Although, for the most part, the Chosen One doesn't bother me too much if it's for a good reason / has a good story to it.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

theWiitch said:


> I feel this list on a spiritual level. Although, for the most part, the Chosen One doesn't bother me too much if it's for a good reason / has a good story to it.



It's mostly about the Chosen Ones turning evil as a _le gasp! _surprise, or if they can do no wrong in the story. I think it's fine to reveal they're the chosen one, after a long struggle or something. However, to make them the "hero foretold" is sort of annoying.


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## theWiitch (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> It's mostly about the Chosen Ones turning evil as a _le gasp! _surprise, or if they can do no wrong in the story. I think it's fine to reveal they're the chosen one, after a long struggle or something. However, to make them the "hero foretold" is sort of annoying.



Yeess, it gets old fast. You almost have to use the "Is this character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu" run down, otherwise it just loses its charm.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jun 25, 2019)

Orphans.

Feels like 90% of protagonists in fantasy settings are orphans or have parents/guardians so negligent and horrible they may as well be orphans.

Can't we just have someone who had a normal, well adjusted childhood, with loving parents be lead role in fantasy for once? :[ I'm so tired of this:


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> Orphans.
> 
> Feels like 90% of protagonists in fantasy settings are orphans or have parents/guardians so negligent and horrible they may as well be orphans.
> 
> Can't we just have someone who had a normal, well adjusted childhood, with loving parents be lead role in fantasy for once? :[ I'm so tired of this:




Yeah, that's annoying. Now, my antagonist Aurelia was an orphan, but that's sort of what led her to become a witch. Being isolated, being accused of being a witch. It basically broke her to where she "gave people" the witch they were after. Setting her to be a powerful antagonist. My character Helga is a protagonist, but her problem is her clan and brother push her to fight in a war she doesn't agree with. However, her parents probably were not abusive. I don't really like parental abuse in my story so even my worst people can be good parents, like Amanda who is no doubt selfish, corrupt, and paranoid. However, she is still a good mother to her child.  There is my character Donald who was an orphan, but he really isn't the protagonist and he basically joins the Navy Seals in my story. 

I think these two things are what happened in Naruto. He's an orphan, but he's also the "chosen one", in that he seals up the nine tailed fox inside himself.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jun 25, 2019)

I mean... I get it. Having a family is baggage for when you want to go off on "Adventure" But it just feels like lazy writing done out of convenience for "Sad" points or to allow character to be unencumbered to do what they like.

It feels like so much wasted potential. Sure family can burden the person from just doing whatever they want, but it also adds stakes and weight their actions and choices. Gives them something to lose.

To quote Winnie the Pooh:

"How lucky am I to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard."


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

In my main story, having a family is basically the problem. My villains, the Bradanskas are a loving family, but pretty much everyone one except Grau is evil in some form or another. Even her own brother is evil, as well as her father, aunt, and grandmother. I like the concept of the villains actually being a family of baddies, but then only one of them really tries to make a difference. The problem is families are baggage for writers and they don't want to go all into it. 

I made it where my villains are powerful, because they're in a family. Even on the political front, having a family of superpowered freaks means everyone probably wouldn't mess with you and people begin to follow said family for power. Much like a noble family. It's how you use a family in a story that matters. For instance, Aurelia who I was talking about? The Bradanksa family is basically her descendants and all that evil magic eventually led to a bloodline and a natural affinity for magic on her side of the family.


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## luffy (Jun 25, 2019)

ALL of the titles in the r/nosleep subreddit.  "I thought x, but it turns out it was x.  Now I am x."  GAAAAAAAAAAH!


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

luffy said:


> ALL of the titles in the r/nosleep subreddit.  "I thought x, but it turns out it was x.  Now I am x."  GAAAAAAAAAAH!



When someone who isn't the chosen one, is the chosen one?


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## luffy (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> When someone who isn't the chosen one, is the chosen one?


AGONY


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

luffy said:


> AGONY



I don't know where you're getting at. Which cliche are you talking about, to be more precise?


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## luffy (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I don't know where you're getting at. Which cliche are you talking about, to be more precise?


Oh.  I thought yours was an example.

Stuff like, "I thought my best friend was harmless.  Turns out, she's not.  Now I am in danger."

I'll try to find some examples from the sub itself.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

luffy said:


> Oh.  I thought yours was an example.
> 
> Stuff like, "I thought my best friend was harmless.  Turns out, she's not.  Now I am in danger."
> 
> I'll try to find some examples from the sub itself.



Oh, well yeah there's always that. Even Chernyoble heavily used this, (even if it's somewhat historically accurate. There is debate if the Soviets really knew the danger that was going on at the powerplant, or was it's just ignorance instead of a coverup.) Anyways, yeah. There's always "the killer is in the room, but it's always someone never expects" or "the person with the deadly virus already got screened for it, so the infected person is actually still in the room."


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## luffy (Jun 25, 2019)

I think I have a problem with the trying-to-be-suspenseful titles.  It's so forced it's cringy.  I love their stories but the titles are killin' me, Smalls.
"*I stole a story from an author and now he's stealing my life"*
*"I think there’s a spirit living in my daughters toy."*
*"People regularly go missing during tours of the tunnels underneath my town. Then it was my fiancé’s turn."*
*"I found out something strange about my coworkers at work. Now I know why."*


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Yeah, especially when they try to cover up the suspense and have all the characters act like they're all fine and safe.


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## Le Chat Nécro (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Beauty equals goodness: Most of my own works has plenty of lovely and handsome villains. Yes, you can be hot and the heroine or hero, but so can someone being evil


Just be careful you don't fall into the related trope of "sexually empowered woman = evil". If she's a sexy lady, she's likely to seduce you and then try to kill you. Only ~beautiful~, pure maidens allowed. 

I also super love (sarcasm) how men write descriptions of women. 

__
		https://did%3D289df2ef9ba0d60609ce7dedff567ee56cbfe626%3Bid%3D185831261275%3Bkey%3DFt6qR_I2M3F3N-1kozQ7AA%3Bname%3Drox-and-prose


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> Just be careful you don't fall into the related trope of "sexually empowered woman = evil". If she's a sexy lady, she's likely to seduce you and then try to kill you. Only ~beautiful~, pure maidens allowed.
> 
> I also super love (sarcasm) how men write descriptions of women.
> 
> ...



Eh, the lines between good and evil in my story are really blurry. For instance, my villainess Ophelia is my most popular and notably most lovely woman, but I never have any sex scenes with her. A lot of my good characters are also hot. I really don't go for that angle, unless that's part of their personality. Then it's just how the character is. There's no such thing as 'pure' in my story in regards to morality, there's only the heroes who try their best to be good vs the swarm of villains who come in all shapes and forms. The closest one would be Grau, but she's literally the daughter of my character Grief, and her and his entire family are evil. The only thing that really separates her from her families legacy is just how she got tired of her family causing and fighting in wars and seeing innocent people die. It's not that Grau even is perfect in character, she clearly takes after her father in enjoying to troll people, but it's just she's the heroine because she sees a better path that none of her family see.


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## Minerva_Minx (Jun 26, 2019)

Writing cliches I find annoying?

1) it's stormy before something bad happens.  I mean, there are 200 storms on earth at any given time, but 300 days out of the year in most places, it's clear to mostly cloudy.  Villain shows up and they're the wizard of rain.

2) "I love you" - "Hey, Zack.  Where'd Wendy run off to?" "Oh, hey, Allen.  Yeah, she went to the fridge.  Something about love and now I'm wanting to kill that guy."

3) The Tick - "Ethan, there's a bomb in the camp!  What're we gonna do?!" "Well, Author, just wait for the bomb to get to 5 seconds, then cut some random wire while spraying yourself with water.  Whatever you do, bomb will diffuse." "I was worried because it's nuclear and they don't work like that."  I need music and over drama power, stat.

4) they don't work like that - "Wow, this nuclear weapon is totally unsafe and only has three safety switches and they are all failing!" I mean 1961 was a bad year for Goldsboro, NC and lax nuclear practices, pizza delivery guy having access to nuclear site while people slept, general trying to pull one over on a casino - ok, might give this one a pass.  but at last second, someone's dead.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Writing cliches I find annoying?
> 
> 1) it's stormy before something bad happens.  I mean, there are 200 storms on earth at any given time, but 300 days out of the year in most places, it's clear to mostly cloudy.  Villain shows up and they're the wizard of rain.
> 
> ...



1) Yeah, that's mostly for mood unless you're a villain who can control weather or if magic is involved. I do find it funny that it happens and it doesn't really signify anything more than _le gasp_! The bad guy is bad! I prefer dark clouds and maybe rain, but not all the time.

2) You mean forced romance?

3) That sounds more like comic relief, but yeah the five second bomb defuse clutch is a classic.

4) Yeah, nuclear bombs are not really explosives, unless you make a portable one. They're more like missiles, unless it's the 1950's dropped kind.


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## ThatWeirdoLurking (Jun 26, 2019)

Everyone always talks about Mary Sues when it comes to cliches, but sometimes I find the opposite worse. What I mean by this is the main character that does absolutely nothing throughout the whole book, but gets rewarded regardless. 

e.g. "You are the chosen one! I'll sacrifice myself so you don't have to fight anything for risk of you dying!"


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

ThatWeirdoLurking said:


> Everyone always talks about Mary Sues when it comes to cliches, but sometimes I find the opposite worse. What I mean by this is the main character that does absolutely nothing throughout the whole book, but gets rewarded regardless.
> 
> e.g. "You are the chosen one! I'll sacrifice myself so you don't have to fight anything for risk of you dying!"



True that "just there" character who's special for doing nothing is also annoying. In old cartoons that would be the random guy/ furry who won the race competition while two main characters were trying to bicker and out do each other. XD


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## 1234554321 (Jun 26, 2019)

tHe CHoZ3n on3!!1!


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

Ckiimyir said:


> tHe CHoZ3n on3!!1!



When you're the chosen one,but Obi-wan still has the high ground.


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## KimberVaile (Jun 26, 2019)

Aside from Mary Sues or characters that almost everybody in the world inexplicably likes because author says so?

I don't know if there is a term for it, but like. Having a TV show set itself up as being uber realistic and gritty in like some medieval setting, then at the same time, have these characters who are caked in 50 lbs of makeup to look flawless and have these perfect figures with absolutely zero imperfections.

Like, you're setting yourself up to be gritty and realistic in a medieval setting, but everybody looks like they're getting ready for a modeling shoot. It's just hilarious to me. Not necessarily annoying I guess. 

_cough _Game of Thrones _end cough _


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

KimberVaile said:


> Aside from Mary Sues or characters that almost everybody in the world inexplicably likes because author says so?
> 
> I don't know if there is a term for it, but like. Having a TV show set itself up as being uber realistic and gritty in like some medieval setting, then at the same time, have these characters who are caked in 50 lbs of makeup to look flawless and have these perfect figures with absolutely zero imperfections.
> 
> ...



That's what we call dark fantasy, and yes it's an actual genre. It's like in Warhammer fantasy, yes it's dark, people die left and right, but there are characters who are like that. It's sort of like how DC is very dark compared to Marvel, but yet everyone is so iconic. The reason for that? Well, to sell the concept and make money. It's a sad fact, but a lot of characters are promoted from that on a meta level just to sell.


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## Foxy Emy (Jun 26, 2019)

The cliche that cliches can never be used. The cliches of today are just the novel ideas that resonated with people of the past.

You can use a cliche and make it work better than the alternative as long as you know it is a cliche.

For example, take the cliche, "a heart as cold as ice."

Now make it more context specific to your setting:

"a heart as cold as a dead man's hand."

"a heart as cold as the surgeon's tools operating on it."

You know the reader sees "a heart as cold" and they already think they know how the line ends because it mimics a common cliche. Then they read the rest and it becomes more engaging because you have toyed with their expectations.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

Emyrelda Seoni said:


> The cliche that cliches can never be used. The cliches of today are just the novel ideas that resonated with people of the past.
> 
> You can use a cliche and make it work better than the alternative as long as you know it is a cliche.
> 
> ...



I agree, heck I use cliches all the time. Giant villains who can change size and magical witches with psychic soldiers? Oh, and my main villain isn't in it for money or power, but for REVENGEEEEEEE! XD

I think it's about adapting and knowing how to use a trope or cliche, rather than just doing it like everyone else has. Or at least trying to be original and put some effort. Then again, you can't please everyone.


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## VileTypos (Jun 26, 2019)

Overuse of “bro” and “sis.” Like holy shit we get it you’re siblings just call each other by your fucking names.

EDIT: 
Oh and
“The Rebellion”
Goth girls being written as unfortunate princesses who just need a dick inside them to feel pretty
Aaaaaaand relationships that appear for no other reason than “these two people happen to be fighting for the same cause”


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## Foxy Emy (Jun 26, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I agree, heck I use cliches all the time. Giant villains who can change size and magical witches with psychic soldiers? Oh, and my main villain isn't in it for money or power, but for REVENGEEEEEEE! XD
> 
> I think it's about adapting and knowing how to use a trope or cliche, rather than just doing it like everyone else has. Or at least trying to be original and put some effort. Then again, you can't please everyone.



The thing about writing is, you have to know your audience... Even if that audience you are writing for is just the future you.

It helps with what tropes to use.


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## Le Chat Nécro (Jun 26, 2019)

VileTypos said:


> Overuse of “bro” and “sis.” Like holy shit we get it you’re siblings just call each other by your fucking names.


Yeah. It's a lot more like "hey asshole" "sup shortstack" in my family.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

VileTypos said:


> Overuse of “bro” and “sis.” Like holy shit we get it you’re siblings just call each other by your fucking names.
> 
> EDIT:
> Oh and
> ...



My brother calls me gay all the time, or cracker. XD


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## Foxy Emy (Jun 26, 2019)

To be fair, surviving a near death experience with someone is a fast way to form a strong bond.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

Emyrelda Seoni said:


> To be fair, surviving a near death experience with someone is a fast way to form a strong bond.



True, especially in stories where it's just you two.


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## Foxy Emy (Jun 26, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> True, especially in stories where it's just you two.



There aren't many full stories I know with only two characters....


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 26, 2019)

Emyrelda Seoni said:


> There aren't many full stories I know with only two characters....



It's more with post apocalyptic ans survival stories. There's other characters,  but they mostly die instead of our two protagonists.


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## Russec (Jun 26, 2019)

Trying to skirt the "show, don't tell" problem by just using lots of adverbs:

>"I don't feel well," Jake said tiredly.
>Amy exhaustedly replied, "Same here."

It's okay in small doses, but it is rarely used sparingly by those who do use it at all. And then you start getting into really forced stuff:

>Robert excitedly and quickly hurried up the slope, where he happily hugged Silia. Silia in turn giggled dreamily.


And so on.


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## Foxy Emy (Jun 27, 2019)

Russec said:


> Trying to skirt the "show, don't tell" problem by just using lots of adverbs:
> 
> >"I don't feel well," Jake said tiredly.
> >Amy exhaustedly replied, "Same here."
> ...



The answer is just to use better verbs.

Did Robert _just_ hurry up the slope? Did he dart up it? Or did he sprint?

And was the slope a hill? A mound? A ramp?

The thesaurus is your friend!

That said, I hate calling the show-don't-tell rule a rule. It is more like a guideline.

Take the following bit of exposition via dialogue:

"Jill cheated on her exam!" Jack protested.

You could accuse that of just telling the audience that Jill cheated on her exam, rather than showing them. And you may be right, assuming Jack's statement is true.

But what if that wasn't the main purpose of the author? What if the author was intending to show you that Jack is a snitch and it just so happened to tell you about Jill in the process?

I try to think of dialogue as an action that shows you something about the speaker. Or, on occasion, I double it up and use it show the listener's reaction to whatever was said.


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## Nyro46 (Jun 28, 2019)

The first thing that comes to mind is the third-act breakup. Though, I think this is more common in movies than literature. (By that I mean when by the third act of the movie, the two main characters end up hating each other over some "misunderstanding" that most times shouldn't have even happened).

Also, after reading through this thread, makes me wonder if I should rework the relationship of two main characters in a story I have been working on . . . because originally it was that they would end up dating by the end of the story, but now I'm wondering if I just shouldn't do that? (I would go into more detail but I'm afraid of going too off-topic from the thread).


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## Russec (Jun 28, 2019)

Nyro46 said:


> The first thing that comes to mind is the third-act breakup. Though, I think this is more common in movies than literature. (By that I mean when by the third act of the movie, the two main characters end up hating each other over some "misunderstanding" that most times shouldn't have even happened).
> 
> Also, after reading through this thread, makes me wonder if I should rework the relationship of two main characters in a story I have been working on . . . because originally it was that they would end up dating by the end of the story, but now I'm wondering if I just shouldn't do that? (I would go into more detail but I'm afraid of going too off-topic from the thread).



I'd love to see more stories that end with a couple breaking up and moving on, both growing as individuals. It'd be like a cold shower. Then again, might be off-putting as a plot unless you were really dedicated...


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## PercyD (Jun 28, 2019)

Russec said:


> I'd love to see more stories that end with a couple breaking up and moving on, both growing as individuals. It'd be like a cold shower. Then again, might be off-putting as a plot unless you were really dedicated...


Theres a movie on Netflix called Jaunita where the main character finally find appreciation, acceptance and love from a community that is not her own.
However, she leaves the community and the love interest to go live by the sea for a awhile because that was her intention. 
Its not a full on break up, they're there for her when she returns. But I think thats about as close to the cold shower you are requesting.


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## PercyD (Jun 28, 2019)

I hate exposition dumps. It's getting more jarring and annoying as I age too, I think.
The author just dumps all this information on you. And it's particularly bad with "smart writing" because if you don't catch it, you're "dumb".

No, excuse me. People don't talk as dissertations normally. Even when people give dissertations, they have to submit a written, organized, review so that the audience can study up on the topic first. You're just a putz that cannot communicate well and now you're pushing off your shitty communication skills on your characters now.


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## Russec (Jun 28, 2019)

PercyD said:


> I hate exposition dumps.



YES, yes, yes! One big thing I've found as a pre-reader/editor is that this goes hand in hand with people saying they don't know how to make their pacing better or stories longer.

Once you've shot the literary load (pardon the gross metaphor) like that, is it really surprising your story feels rushed and too short? Instead of naturally bringing in all that information, which would have meant more words and automatically broken up the pace, you've got nothing left because the flavor that would have added to your story body is now lying in a pile, with the plot skeleton left naked.


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## PercyD (Jun 28, 2019)

Russec said:


> YES, yes, yes! One big thing I've found as a pre-reader/editor is that this goes hand in hand with people saying they don't know how to make their pacing better or stories longer.
> 
> Once you've shot the literary load (pardon the gross metaphor) like that, is it really surprising your story feels rushed and too short? Instead of naturally bringing in all that information, which would have meant more words and automatically broken up the pace, you've got nothing left because the flavor that would have added to your story body is now lying in a pile, with the plot skeleton left naked.


Thats an excellent point, actually.
Soliloquies are supposed to be a snap shot, and give a perspective of _one character_. Not... the character basically telling the entire story. *Squint*
It's really bad when I'm doing rp sessions and the character just blurts out their entire backstory in one post. _And they just met the other character._ You don't tell your whole story to someone you just met. Brah, chill-


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## Nyro46 (Jun 28, 2019)

Russec said:


> I'd love to see more stories that end with a couple breaking up and moving on, both growing as individuals. It'd be like a cold shower. Then again, might be off-putting as a plot unless you were really dedicated...


That was sort of the alternative I was thinking of, actually.

The two main characters are fairly different from each other, in that the protagonist had been overly sheltered by her mom for too long (like being 25 and still living at home) and the deuteragonist is rather independent and is more knowledgable about the outside world. Trying to keep it short, basically the deuteragonist ends up saving the protagonist at some point, though they don't stick with each other right after that. It's not until a little bit later that the protagonist meets up with the deuteragonist again. It was that the deuteragonist eventually had a crush on the protagonist and eventually they would express their feelings for each other (keep in mind this doesn't happen out of nowhere, there would be a lot of moments and build up before this so it doesn't seem out of left field). But I was wondering if maybe by the end of the story the protagonist decides to move on, maybe that she finally becomes more independent and wants to be on her own instead for some time? Also, to keep in mind that the only "relationship" she had before this was an online relationship with a guy she was friends with for ten years, but he was rather manipulative and kinda creepy.

I tried to keep it short so I left a lot of details in the story out but I feel this probably gets the gist of it.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Jun 28, 2019)

George Carlin apparently hated the clouds cliche in writing:


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## MaelstromEyre (Jul 1, 2019)

Lead character doesn't want to settle down or start a family. Not ever.
Stuff happens.
Lead character ends up getting married and having babies and it makes everything perfect and meaningful.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2019)

MaelstromEyre said:


> Lead character doesn't want to settle down or start a family. Not ever.
> Stuff happens.
> Lead character ends up getting married and having babies and it makes everything perfect and meaningful.



Funny you mention that, that made my villainess Ophelia stop being a villain and it made her son Grief become a dictator. XD


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## Rusty_Raccoon (Jul 2, 2019)

The Hero's Journey


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## Xitheon (Jul 2, 2019)

When a woman goes abruptly from being shy and/or dominant to being "look at my tits, oh please have mercy, I don't want to show you my tits but I can't resist." Or some such.


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## SmokeyTheFox (Jul 2, 2019)

When in a school setting, the main character is almost always sat next to the other most important character. Like, seriously, there are OTHER ways for characters to meet.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2019)

Xitheon said:


> When a woman goes abruptly from being shy and/or dominant to being "look at my tits, oh please have mercy, I don't want to show you my tits but I can't resist." Or some such.



That's basically wish fulfillment from the writer.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2019)

Rusty_Raccoon said:


> The Hero's Journey



Oh yeah, that is annoying. It works for something like Pokemon.


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## Russec (Jul 2, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Oh yeah, that is annoying. It works for something like Pokemon.


You know what? I disagree. The hero's journey can be done well, and it can be done poorly. The problem is when people fill in the same tired shit for each step. If the term has too much baggage, don't even call it the hero's journey, call it the "Story Circle". Its a basic, consistent concept that naturally arises in narrative plots with conflict, and is just one way of organizing things.

In film, you might use a three act structure. In other forms, you use the classic intro, rising action, climax, resolution, and denouement.The secret is that THEY ARE THE SAME THING. You can easily divide a story into any of these formats, depending on where you place emphasis. I once did this with the script for the movie, "Her" -- give it a shot with something you know, you'll be surprised.

What I take issue with is hero's journey _tropes_. The "wizard" doesn't have to literally be a wizard. The threshold does not literally have to have a person crossing into another fantastical realm.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2019)

Russec said:


> You know what? I disagree. The hero's journey can be done well, and it can be done poorly. The problem is when people fill in the same tired shit for each step. If the term has too much baggage, don't even call it the hero's journey, call it the "Story Circle". Its a basic, consistent concept that naturally arises in narrative plots with conflict, and is just one way of organizing things.
> 
> In film, you might use a three act structure. In other forms, you use the classic intro, rising action, climax, resolution, and denouement.The secret is that THEY ARE THE SAME THING. You can easily divide a story into any of these formats, depending on where you place emphasis. I once did this with the script for the movie, "Her" -- give it a shot with something you know, you'll be surprised.
> 
> What I take issue with is hero's journey _tropes_. The "wizard" doesn't have to literally be a wizard. The threshold does not literally have to have a person crossing into another fantastical realm.



Thing is, I'm more interested in how the villain turned evil than how the hero comes from some annoying scrub who saves the day all the time. I sort of like a villain's journey. How Darth Vader became evil from Anakin more then how Luke became a hero.


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## MaelstromEyre (Jul 3, 2019)

Xitheon said:


> When a woman goes abruptly from being shy and/or dominant to being "look at my tits, oh please have mercy, I don't want to show you my tits but I can't resist." Or some such.


 
I know some writers think they are "empowering" female characters by making them overly sexual, but IMO all that does is play into the fantasies of their male readers.  It's not a strong character development, it just reinforces the idea that, no matter what a woman accomplishes, no matter how intelligent or talented she is, ultimately she is something to be ogled and lusted after.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2019)

MaelstromEyre said:


> I know some writers think they are "empowering" female characters by making them overly sexual, but IMO all that does is play into the fantasies of their male readers.  It's not a strong character development, it just reinforces the idea that, no matter what a woman accomplishes, no matter how intelligent or talented she is, ultimately she is something to be ogled and lusted after.



There's nothing wrong with moderate and modest femininity. Women are also sexual creatures as men are, that and you also have to take into account lesbians. The problem is that when it's just that and nothing else. It's not really about "empowering", so long as it's done in moderation. The problem is that writers don't comprehend that a character can have more than one aspect to them. I honestly sit in the middle fence post in this regards. I do believe that a woman should look like a woman, but they should look natural and have more to them than their looks. However, it's not wrong to have a female be feminine. It's like saying that Solid Snake is only liked for his looks, no there should be more to it and be well balanced. Sadly, media is too politicized and moderation mixed with diversity for the sake of enriching a storyline is sadly a bygone concept from in the 90's.


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## MaelstromEyre (Jul 3, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> There's nothing wrong with moderate and modest femininity. Women are also sexual creatures as men are, that and you also have to take into account lesbians. The problem is that when it's just that and nothing else. It's not really about "empowering", so long as it's done in moderation. The problem is that writers don't comprehend that a character can have more than one aspect to them. I honestly sit in the middle fence post in this regards. I do believe that a woman should look like a woman, but they should look natural and have more to them than their looks. However, it's not wrong to have a female be feminine. It's like saying that Solid Snake is only liked for his looks, no there should be more to it and be well balanced. Sadly, media is too politicized and moderation mixed with diversity for the sake of enriching a storyline is sadly a bygone concept from in the 90's.



Right, there's nothing wrong with a female character being "feminine," but too many writers make them into more of a male fantasy than a realistic character with goals and desires that DON'T involve being in love.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2019)

MaelstromEyre said:


> Right, there's nothing wrong with a female character being "feminine," but too many writers make them into more of a male fantasy than a realistic character with goals and desires that DON'T involve being in love.



I also blame society for this more than just written media. Anime, tv shows, videogames, ect. The sad part of reality is that sex sells so to sell a series, writers often go to this. While males also can be sexy, women are the main target for many more nerdy series due to the fact most forms of geek culture has for years primarily appealed to men. While I agree with the sentiment, the problem is that both sides are at fault. You'll find many feminists and social justice warriors, also are very much into the media they don't like. Thus writers often just portray characters like this anyways, why? Well, because society is like this. It's not just a male fantasy, there are a lot of women out there who are oh so into being into positions such as these characters. Just look at Deviantart, you'll find plenty of females who willingly draw cheesecake and whatnot for popularity...

Anyways, you do have a point. You can make a good female character and not make them a sex obsessed idol. The sad problem is that society is basically filled with people who would buy up what you have for basically smut material, and thus people pay money into this.


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## Minerva_Minx (Jul 4, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> There's nothing wrong with moderate and modest femininity. Women are also sexual creatures as men are, that and you also have to take into account lesbians.



What about lesbians?


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 4, 2019)

Minerva_Minx said:


> What about lesbians?



That's the thing, simply attributing female sexualisation in media to something only for men is a fallacy in logic when you realize that females also are attracted to each other. At the heart it's an issue with society, and not just with writers, (although they play a big part too. I'm looking at all those people like Frank Miller. XD)


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## Minerva_Minx (Jul 4, 2019)

I think you are taking a correlations fallacy and adding in an ad hominem fallacy and supporting with a to quoque fallacy.

I'm a lesbian, sure, because I am homosexually attracted to women.  It's not because of specialization of women, it's unequivocally built into who I am.  If women were not oversexualized, I would still be a lesbian.

Straight women are not attracted to other women.  That is a tu quoque fallacy founded around the current culture of toxic masculinity.  Using the argument females are attracted to each other is to invoke toxic femininity, which is a counter to toxic masculinity while disregarding and baiting the violence and sexualization of women as a normal function and perfectly ok.

By saying they are into the media they don't like is an ad hominem fallacy, logically attempting to attack personal traits of a subject to bolster an argument.  again, oversexualization has nothing to do with being gay.  It's a male dominance stance. I don't walk around catcalling other women or overemphasizing their breasts, or ogling them, or shaming them.  It's rude.  that's not being an SJW or feminist, that's just being a considerate person.

"I think most things I read on the Internet and in newspapers are propaganda. Everyone from the 'New York Times' to Rupert Murdoch has a point of view and is putting forth their own propaganda. They're stuck with the facts as they are, but the way they interpret and frame them is wildly different."  Frank Miller

I hate faulty logic as a cliche, like crime doesn't pay.  of course it does, because people do it to make money all the time.  most people won't do it because it's wrong.  I have to agree that for movies, I like a strong woman who is a lead without drawing in she is a woman as a character trait to overcome.  as for artists drawing oversexualized women, the art world is actually shown to be 50/50 for gender.  however, the audience for dA is 20% NSFW art and 80% SFW.  The fastest way to build followers on art sites, by analytics, is NSFW content.  I posted a picture of myself covering my boobs and in a bikini bottom and garnered nearly as many hits in an hour to my site as the past two years.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 4, 2019)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I think you are taking a correlations fallacy and adding in an ad hominem fallacy and supporting with a to quoque fallacy.
> 
> I'm a lesbian, sure, because I am homosexually attracted to women.  It's not because of specialization of women, it's unequivocally built into who I am.  If women were not oversexualized, I would still be a lesbian.
> 
> ...



Someone got _*triggered.*_


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## Sir Thaikard (Jul 11, 2019)

I hate anything that takes itself too seriously. We are all self-aware hairless monkeys flying around the universe on a moist rock spaceship.

Get that stick out your ass.


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## WXYZ (Jul 12, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> .Forced romance, of any kind.
> 
> .Abusive parents: This really pisses me off, yes. It's realistic, but it's also annoying.


I tried doing a webcomic years back. My collaborator asked to include those elements in succession. That, and his annoying habit of sending multiple e-mails in a short span of time even if I haven't replied yet, prematurely ended the project.


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## Arnak (Jul 12, 2019)

The chosen one... It makes people cocky and they should die in the first fight. A character of mine is the chosen ones sibling and it's him who beats the bad guy (after almost dying) saves the world (or just his village) and gets the girl (who originally was at first, his first enemy) I made a few mistakes but I wanted it to be the overshadowed one who saves the day... I'm done now


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 12, 2019)

Manchesterite said:


> I tried doing a webcomic years back. My collaborator asked to include those elements in succession. That, and his annoying habit of sending multiple e-mails in a short span of time even if I haven't replied yet, prematurely ended the project.



I hate picky partners like that, seems they wanted to vent in a story for that.


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## Sablesword (Jul 15, 2019)

LordChestnut said:


> Looking in the mirror to describe a character in a first person narrative. I did it though lol



Looking in the mirror to describe a character is tricky to pull off whether the story is written in first person or third.

I had a first-person narrative where the character looked into the mirror and did NOT describe his appearance. He was more interested in the way he handled his new sword.

Another way to do it is to have a character look into a mirror and describe her clothing. Because inspecting one's clothing is a credible reason to look in a mirror.

A third option is to be audacious about it:
The Matron pulled the now-nude Suzanne in front of a full length mirror. “Describe yourself,” came the command. “Practice describing yourself. When they put you on the auction block, you will need to sound both confident and honest.”

Suzanne watched the image in the mirror take a deep breath. She began to speak…


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## Sablesword (Jul 15, 2019)

The cliche that I find most irritating is "A simple misunderstanding or failure to communicate" as the source of a story's plot and the cause of its conflict.


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## ConorHyena (Jul 15, 2019)

I hate hero character that survive with scratches or minor wounds. Like, if you're gonna go walk through gunfire, you're gonna get hit

That shouldn't necessarily stop them but it's gonna happen.


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## Cosmic-FS (Jul 15, 2019)

The 'Stoic Badass Character'. This is a cliche that is typical for villains. They are the characters who, in an effort to show just how cool and intimidating they are, show zero emotion while performing the most intense and extreme actions, e.g. being in shootouts, getting in car chases, setting off explosions (while not looking at them)

They also rarely, if ever, speak even when someone is talking directly to them. This can get so bad that it can be really hilarious. When this happens I like to imagine that the badass character actualy doesn't speak the same language. So whenever someone tries to have a conversation with them, they secretly have no idea what anyone saying.


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## hara-surya (Jul 20, 2019)

It's not a cliche per se, but present tense writing grates on my nerves to the point I find it unreadable. I've stopped reading well regarded novels I was excited about after a few pages (The Night Circus) because they were in present tense.

I'm the same way with purple prose and find Jacqueline Carey, Catherynne M. Valente and Ray Bradbury difficult to read because of it. Bradbury was at least talented with a flair for the poetic and his style fit short stories well, the other two were just overly wordy and needed a better editor. Then again, I find Isaac Asimov to be a role model when it come to description.

In erotica, I hate authors who forget that people aren't hollow, have every sexual encounter be absolutely perfect and who think rape scenes are OK if the object of desire orgasms in the end.


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## babykitty (Jul 22, 2019)

Characters who treated like heroes for solving the problem they created. You defeated an army of zombies and saved the world with a vaccine from the virus you created, congrats. Now here's a pair of handcuffs, you're going to jail for reckless endangerment 0f the entire problem.

This also extents to characters who aren't punished for their actions. I can't* FUCKING STAND THAT SHIT*. Especially when it's the main character. You, knowingly, put everyone in danger, probably got a few killed, but you get to live and be fine. Not just live in fact, we'll absolve you of all your sins like magic. Worst is when it's the main character. Looking at you, Barry Allen.


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## Rant (Jul 22, 2019)

Horror movie logic.

Also predicable anime plots. I'm so good at the game now of naming who's gonna die, what's gonna happen ect that my mate won't watch most anime with me unless I watch the first few episodes alone to get it out of my system.


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## Rant (Jul 22, 2019)

Rusty_Raccoon said:


> Watch Paranoia Agent, I don't know if I'd call that a predictable anime plot


Oh I have. It's one of my favorite. :3 Ergo Proxy is really good too


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## Faustus (Aug 5, 2019)

Annoying Cliche #1: Amnesia.
No, it doesn't work like that. Getting hit on the head does NOT cause it, and it doesn't make you forget who you where, it makes you forget what happens next. Also it's lazy writing.

Annoying Cliche #2: "It's Our Only Hope!"
Oh come on. Whenever this chestnut comes up I can almost always think of a bunch of other options. Besides, you're not telling me that in the split second of action, the person saying this has evaluated literally every other possible course of action? Bleh.

Annoying Cliche #3: the Wilhelm Scream
Ok this one only crops up in movies, but now that I know it exists I keep on hearing it in almost every movie I see!!! If you don't know what I mean, look it up on YouTube.

Annoying Cliche #4: Pretty Women with No Definite Personality
I like to see a pretty lady as much as any other heterosexual guy / homosexual woman I'm sure, but for pity's sake give her SOME kind of personality. She's not just there to pout and swing her hips at the camera.

Annoying Cliche #5: Nerds with Glasses
I'm a nerd. I have glasses. I find this offensive.

Annoying Cliche #6: Dungeons and Bloody Dragons
Whenever you see people playing an RPG in a TV show or movie, it is always either Dungeons and Dragons or a trademark-safe, numbers-filed-off copy of it. Furthermore all you ever see is the combat bits, never the social interaction or the storytelling. There are other RPGs, there are other ways to play, and there are female gamers too, goddamit.

Aargh! I need to go stick my head in the icebox.


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## larigot (Aug 5, 2019)

Plot armor: an important character should just be f'ing dead instead of surviving the nth unsurvivable situation. 



Spoiler



Looking at you jon snow.


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## ArtVulpine (Aug 5, 2019)

As a writer and library director I find the following cliches annoying: 

#1- The badass character that says the f-word every sentence of dialogue to show how badass he/she is. This is less of a case of trying to be clean and more of the fact that there are better ways to show how strong a person is.
#2- The Mary Sue/ Gary Stu. Perfect in every way with zero challenges and everyone likes them. Sorry, I'd rather not.
#3 - characters with no personality. 
#4- The Hallmark Movie Cliche or how a miscommunication/ lack of communication can lead to a movie/ book. 
#5- Cliche evil or "I'm evil for no good reason!" 
#6- The stupid comedy relief character! You know, the guy/girl who acts like they have zero brain cells? The one who breaks up an otherwise action filled moment with their stupidity? Yeah of all the protagonists, these are the ones I wished were offed in the beginning or not featured at all. 
#7- "It was only a dream." Hero goes through all his/her adventures, defeats the ultimate evil, and saves the world only to wake up and find it was in their mind. 
#8- Sick lit. We're talking Nicholas Sparks and some wannabee John Green authors out there. Basically the plot of all sick lit stories go like this: Hero either has a family member or a romantic interest that has a fatal illness. Relationships are tested and reforged but in the end the family member/ love interest die. I get the appeal due to realism, but still they seem meh. 
#9 Cliffhangers- When done right these can keep the tension from one story to another, but sometimes cliffhangers are done just because the author ran out of ideas for a sequel and instead just use the cliffhanger as a throwaway.


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## Faustus (Aug 8, 2019)

I admit this one is going to be... pretty contentious around here, so please don't have a go at me for what is probably a subjective, personal view. I don't judge people who like this kind of thing, I just don't like it myself. Soooo....

...sticking what is basically just an anthropomorphic animal into an otherwise bog-standard fantasy setting, giving it a weird name and maybe one or two mildly unusual characteristics (i.e. multiple arms) and pretending it's an 'original' species.

I don't care if you call it a 'Gnoll' D&D, what you have there is just an anthropomorphic hyaena. And this is far from being the worst example. This kind of thing makes me want to scream 'FFS just come out of the closet and admit you're a furry!'

To be clear, I'm absolutely fine with fantasy settings that are primarily based on admitted anthropomorphic animals, like the Spellsinger series or the Chronicles of Narnia, and I don't even mind that much if you stick in an anthropomorphic tiger (for example) and call it 'Tiger-Kin' or even just 'Tiger', and naturally werewolves and some other were-creatures are fine because they're rooted in folklore. It's the tacking on of a ridiculous fantasy name that doesn't even descend from the species in question that really bothers me.

It also reminds me of the old White Wolf species of were-spider, the Ananasi, a name probably derived from the folk tale of Anansi but that actually means 'Pineapples'.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Sep 28, 2019)

I don't mind the "chosen one" thing if it's done right. My least favorite type of cliche is the whole "damsel in distress" routine. I'd love to see more women be heroes, while the men take the "damsel in distress" role for a change. I mean, why can't a woman save a man? 
And yeah, the attractive hero/ugly villain thing is quite old...unless you watch anime. They tend to flip flop things like that in anime.


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## Keefur (Sep 28, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> I don't mind the "chosen one" thing if it's done right. My least favorite type of cliche is the whole "damsel in distress" routine. I'd love to see more women be heroes, while the men take the "damsel in distress" role for a change. I mean, why can't a woman save a man?
> And yeah, the attractive hero/ugly villain thing is quite old...unless you watch anime. They tend to flip flop things like that in anime.


I agree with you in principal, but am not in favor of role reversal just for the sake of role reversal.  Some characters shouldn't be tampered with.  How would you like Wonder Woman played by a trans?  See my point?  I like strong female characters but think they should be original characters and not just gender flips.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Sep 28, 2019)

Keefur said:


> I agree with you in principal, but am not in favor of role reversal just for the sake of role reversal.  Some characters shouldn't be tampered with.  How would you like Wonder Woman played by a trans?  See my point?  I like strong female characters but think they should be original characters and not just gender flips.



Oh that is a good point! Like how they made a "female" Thor? Yeah I don't think I could do a transgender Wonder Woman, although having a new character be trans, or incorporate the transgender identity into the hero identity could be interesting. (I actually think there might be a transgender super hero somewhere that does that...I'd have to find it)

What I'm looking for more or less is new characters and new material where the females are the heroes. I mean, I grew up in the 90's and I was always envious that the male characters got to save the day. I always just thought, "what about me? I want to be the hero! Not the one everyone is trying to save!"


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## Liseran Thistle (Sep 28, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Oh that is a good point! Like how they made a "female" Thor? Yeah I don't think I could do a transgender Wonder Woman, although having a new character be trans, or incorporate the transgender identity into the hero identity could be interesting. (I actually think there might be a transgender super hero somewhere that does that...I'd have to find it)
> 
> What I'm looking for more or less is new characters and new material where the females are the heroes. I mean, I grew up in the 90's and I was always envious that the male characters got to save the day. I always just though, "what about me? I want to be the hero! Not the one everyone is trying to save!"



Fem Thor has been a thing in the comics though, hasn't she? I don't think they invented her just for the movies.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Sep 28, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Fem Thor has been a thing in the comics though, hasn't she? I don't think they invented her just for the movies.



Honestly I'm not sure, haha! I just remember reading about making Thor a woman. I need to seriously catch up on my Marvel movies...but I have no idea where to start with that. I don't want to derail the original post though, but that is a good example. So I suppose that's another thing, making an existing character change just to fit today's standards? Certainly they could come up with something more original. The character would have challenges that other super heroes don't have. They might not even be super heroes per say, they could be anything from a fantasy adventurer, a space explorer, or even a detective. Could be the hero that comes on top in a horror flick. Super heroes just tend to be a common thing in this particular genre with the whole "this person saves this person" thing.


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## Keefur (Sep 28, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Like how they made a "female" Thor?





Liseran Thistle said:


> Fem Thor has been a thing in the comics though, hasn't she?


Don't forget about She Hulk.

One of my peeves is the "perfect" character.  They never get hurt, they never get dirty, they always have the proper tool for a job, they always speak the native language, they always escape and win.  You know the type.  I like crazy characters like Ash from Army of Darkness who loses his hand and replaces it with a chainsaw.   He forgets the magic word, gets beat up, etc.  Good stuff.


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## Liseran Thistle (Sep 28, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Honestly I'm not sure, haha! I just remember reading about making Thor a woman. I need to seriously catch up on my Marvel movies...but I have no idea where to start with that. I don't want to derail the original post though, but that is a good example. So I suppose that's another thing, making an existing character change just to fit today's standards? Certainly they could come up with something more original. The character would have challenges that other super heroes don't have. They might not even be super heroes per say, they could be anything from a fantasy adventurer, a space explorer, or even a detective. Could be the hero that comes on top in a horror flick. Super heroes just tend to be a common thing in this particular genre with the whole "this person saves this person" thing.



Yeah but she thor and she hulk are like totally different? I mean I've read some of the comics and the only thing the really have in common is that they share the same name.

Saying she thor and she hulk are the same as normal hulk and normal thor is kind of like saying Batgirl is just batman but as a girl, when really they're completely different. But idk if you know anything about batgirl, lol.

From what I understand, some people just hear that they're making a movie based off a female character that shares the same name as another male character and just think its a copy, or unoriginal, when really the name is just there to drag people in who are already familiar with those male characters. Idk when this started i'm no comic book history buff, but i think maybe there's a better example of this trope than the marvel and dc comics since those are only the same in name?

Like, the ghostbusters reboot is a better example I think, because it was literally just ghostbusters but with women.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Sep 28, 2019)

Keefur said:


> Don't forget about She Hulk.
> 
> One of my peeves is the "perfect" character.  They never get hurt, they never get dirty, they always have the proper tool for a job, they always speak the native language, they always escape and win.  You know the type.  I like crazy characters like Ash from Army of Darkness who loses his hand and replaces it with a chainsaw.   He forgets the magic word, gets beat up, etc.  Good stuff.



Oh yes I remember that movie. "This is my," *click click* "Boomstick!" 

I'll have to keep these things in mind in my own writing honestly. 

I don't mind She-Hulk too much because she's still a separate character, but I see your point in "making a girl version of this" sort of deal. Of course, I don't mind exploring alternate realities and what-ifs either, assuming it's not the official canon. They kind of did that with the whole "He-Man" "She-Ra" thing as well. Likely they were trying to bring girls into an already existing fandom during that time period. Sure, they can be amazing characters but...it would be nice to see an original be the star of their own show instead of sharing it with an already existing character. Of course, if you have a group of characters where they share the spotlight, having some tough female characters within the group can work.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Sep 28, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Yeah but she thor and she hulk are like totally different? I mean I've read some of the comics and the only thing the really have in common is that they share the same name.
> 
> Saying she thor and she hulk are the same as normal hulk and normal thor is kind of like saying Batgirl is just batman but as a girl, when really they're completely different. But idk if you know anything about batgirl, lol.
> 
> ...



That's kind of what I was thinking. Bat-Girl, Super-Girl, She-Hulk, they exist in the same world as separate characters. Female Thor is an attempt to replace the original character with the opposite gender. The latter I'm not so fond with, the former I don't mind so much.
Yeah Ghostbusters is a good example too. Had they just said they were daughters of the original cast, with cameos of the original Ghostbusters it might have been more acceptable? I don't know. I haven't really watched it and I'm not sure if I could.


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## Liseran Thistle (Sep 28, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> That's kind of what I was thinking. Bat-Girl, Super-Girl, She-Hulk, they exist in the same world as separate characters. Female Thor is an attempt to replace the original character with the opposite gender. The latter I'm not so fond with, the former I don't mind so much.
> Yeah Ghostbusters is a good example too. Had they just said they were daughters of the original cast, with cameos of the original Ghostbusters it might have been more acceptable? I don't know. I haven't really watched it and I'm not sure if I could.



Wait is that really what the female thor thing is because from what i was getting from the press releases about the movie it was just supposed to follow a lady named Jane foster and she has the hammer and stuff, like guy thor exists in this world but so does she thor? Idk man its confusing the trailer hasn't even dropped yet so I can't really judge it completely, but I thought it was kind of like she-ra and he-man where they are both technically the same thing with the same powers but ones a a girl and the others a guy, and they both (Kinda) exist in the same universe but we don't really question it. 

to get back on track I'm gonna say I really don't like the love triangle thing that you see in YA books, but they're not even love triangles because both of the guys always like the MC. An actual love triangle would be one where they all like each other. Character A like's Character B but Character B likes Character C and Character C like Character A.


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 28, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Wait is that really what the female thor thing is because from what i was getting from the press releases about the movie it was just supposed to follow a lady named Jane foster and she has the hammer and stuff, like guy thor exists in this world but so does she thor? Idk man its confusing the trailer hasn't even dropped yet so I can't really judge it completely, but I thought it was kind of like she-ra and he-man where they are both technically the same thing with the same powers but ones a a girl and the others a guy, and they both (Kinda) exist in the same universe but we don't really question it.
> 
> to get back on track I'm gonna say I really don't like the love triangle thing that you see in YA books, but they're not even love triangles because both of the guys always like the MC. An actual love triangle would be one where they all like each other. Character A like's Character B but Character B likes Character C and Character C like Character A.



Thor subverts the gender change by keeping both and having Thor the Unworthy.  I'm thinking for gender swap is Starbuck in Battlestar Galatica or Karsi in Game of Thrones.  Exact same character, just changed gender.  Starbuck's made sense given culture shift.  Karsi was just so it would be a mother sending off her children instead of a father.  Ghostbusters was trying too hard for feminine empowerment that it polarized.  So straight gender swap, no.

If I was in a movie or book universe outside of MLP, I would be terrified.  Women are harassed, fridged, or a damsel in distress.  Seriously, we need more Xena.   

Oh crap, we need less Xena.

Holy *****!  Why are all the badass heroines Xena!


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## Keefur (Sep 28, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Oh yes I remember that movie. "This is my," *click click* "Boomstick!"
> 
> I'll have to keep these things in mind in my own writing honestly.
> 
> I don't mind She-Hulk too much because she's still a separate character, but I see your point in "making a girl version of this" sort of deal. Of course, I don't mind exploring alternate realities and what-ifs either, assuming it's not the official canon. They kind of did that with the whole "He-Man" "She-Ra" thing as well. Likely they were trying to bring girls into an already existing fandom during that time period. Sure, they can be amazing characters but...it would be nice to see an original be the star of their own show instead of sharing it with an already existing character. Of course, if you have a group of characters where they share the spotlight, having some tough female characters within the group can work.


I just did a parody of that movie poster.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Sep 28, 2019)

Hahaha! Army of Barkness, that's great!
That actually reminds me of another pet peeve in writing and media. Dogs are almost always heroes while cats are villains. I just sit and go...seriously really? Why are cats always portrayed as evil? -__-
My stories tend to have female heroes in them.
FYI, I'm glad they finally have some powerful female saiyajins in Dragon Ball Super.


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## Troj (Sep 29, 2019)

Comics have been swapping major characters' genders, races, nationalities and other traits_ and_ creating opposite-gender, opposite-personality, and opposite-ideology complements or "mirrors" to major characters since the early days. (Examples of opposite-gender complements to established characters include She-Hulk and Jane "Lady Thor" Foster). Hell, the "Red Sun" comic explores what would've happened to Superman if he'd landed in the USSR.

Then, there was that time Thor got turned into a frog.

What matters is that the stories themselves are told well, and explore the questions they raise in a compelling and believable (by in-universe standards) fashion. 

It's fairly obvious when a creator is simply running out of ideas, and is resorting to "What if Batman was Armadilloman?" ideas out of pure desperation or cynicism.


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## unicorn_jr (Sep 30, 2019)

when comics are being produced and sold to comic shops, comic shops are forced to purchase titles that they know will sell well because of the monopoly Diamond Comic distributors holds over the marketing aspect of the industry, so often times new comics that have no foundational fanbase are passed up by shops. this can put women, LGBT+ people, and writers of color + the work that they put themselves into at a huge disadvantage in comparison to big name characters like the original Thor and Hulk runs! comic companies have found that keeping the character or comic run under the same name, but introducing a new cast, is an easier way to help diverse comic creators have their work bought by comic shops! thats one of the main factors of the Lady Thor switch, along with the girl Iron Man protagonist (whose name i forgot - whoops!), Miles Morales, and the Young Avengers' interpretation of Loki who's genderfluid! yeah, sometimes character switches like that can be fueled by a lack of ideas and a need for a fresh start, but a lot of the times its a way for companies to help their creators get their work out there! and it's really cool because it means old stories can have new life and experiences breathed into them and a new audience can begin to appreciate a character thats been revamped!!

also, a writing cliche i hate: i don't like when people describe outfits in excrutiating detail :c i feel like that's really common in young lit but it crops up in some adult genre stories ive read and it bogs it down for me a lot!! just say like "she was dressed in a long coat and tall shoes" or smth like that and i'll do the rest in my brain asdfghjhl


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## Troj (Oct 1, 2019)

I hate when physical descriptions are info-dumped like some kind of shopping list.

Also, a pox on the writing teachers who told their students that using "said" as a dialogue tag was somehow undesirable.

In a similar vein, amateur writers also seem to have this weird notion that it'll be "boring" to just refer to their character by name, so they keep tossing out weird, unhelpful descriptors (e.g., "Yada yada yada," said the blonde) that force the reader to do pointless work.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Oct 1, 2019)

Sometimes it can be taxing to try and find words to replace "said" with. I think "said" should be used though, but I'm also finding through writing my own story that other ways to describe "said" might be necessary. 
Going back to the comics/super heroes thing, I can definitely see that. Trying to establish a new fanbase with a new story, regardless of how good it might be is challenging. I think comic book stores already know big names like Marvel and DC, and to a point Dark horse. But it would be nice to see something new and refreshing. I like both Marvel and DC characters, I know Batman and Superman have been around since the early 20th century. 
Of course, a single fanbase can become overloaded with new characters as well.
I personally have a preference for anime when it comes to "super heroes" if you will, if you want to call them that. Anime characters seem to be more flawed, have specific struggles and goals they need to accomplish. I like seeing the underdog rise above the others. It gets exciting seeing what was once a weaker character become strong. I'd just like to see more female versions of Goku or Naruto. (Addressing the former, I am glad Akira Toriyama finally introduced some female Super Sayajins!)


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## Nyro46 (Oct 1, 2019)

Troj said:


> I hate when physical descriptions are info-dumped like some kind of shopping list.
> 
> Also, a pox on the writing teachers who told their students that using "said" as a dialogue tag was somehow undesirable.
> 
> In a similar vein, amateur writers also seem to have this weird notion that it'll be "boring" to just refer to their character by name, so they keep tossing out weird, unhelpful descriptors (e.g., "Yada yada yada," said the blonde) that force the reader to do pointless work.



Yeah, as a kid pretty much any writing teacher I had was against using "said" and would even say to only use "said" like once per page (or whatever) at most. So for the longest time when I wrote things when I was younger, like pretty much every dialogue I wrote would end with "blank exclaimed", "blank sighed", "blank asked" etc. This is probably still something I do to a degree today, but at least I am not so scared to just use "said". Besides, most novels I've read use "said" a lot anyway.

Also, on the second one, I agree at times that can be really annoying . . . I might use it occasionally but I at least keep it obvious (for example, I might refer to a character as "the raccoon" in a sentence, but it's the only raccoon in the whole scene, and furthermore I may have just mentioned their name). But this reminds me of this annoying roleplay between these two people I used to be friends with a LONG time ago, where one of them kept referring to her fursona as "THE WOMAN" and it annoyed the crap out of me so badly xD


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## Nax04 (Oct 1, 2019)

*I WANT THE VILLAIN TO FKNG WIN*
Im tired of the stupid "good guys always defeat the bad guy" cliche, it happens all the time, oh the villain is 10000x times stronger than us? Meh its ok, we will win thanks to our love or something like that



Spoiler



The only two times i thought i would be happy was when Thanos snapped his fingers, but nooooo they had to win like they always do. Thanos has a special place in my heart. And also at the final season of Game of Thrones, oh the most powerful enemie in the whole world with an army of undead and an undead dragon? Its ok i'll just stab him without even fighting him for 5 seconds



Oh im the hero, im alone and my rival is way more powerful than me? Its ok because I'LL GET A SUPER BUFF OUT OF NOWHERE WHEN IM ABOUT TO DIE AND I'LL KILL HIS ASS BECAUSE YES


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Oct 2, 2019)

Haha! That would be interesting wouldn't it. 
Granted most of my stories do have the hero winning but, might be a concept that could be explored. I did want to write a character that successfully takes over the world, but they wouldn't necessarily be "evil" per say, just so sick of society's injustices that they decide to do the most radical thing possible to fix them, at least in their own personal world view. Going about it though is challenging.
Sometimes I wonder if a character is only a villain because they lose the battle, because when you think about it it's typically the winners of a war who write history.


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## FlareAeon (Oct 2, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Haha! That would be interesting wouldn't it.
> Granted most of my stories do have the hero winning but, might be a concept that could be explored. I did want to write a character that successfully takes over the world, but they wouldn't necessarily be "evil" per say, just so sick of society's injustices that they decide to do the most radical thing possible to fix them, at least in their own personal world view. Going about it though is challenging.
> Sometimes I wonder if a character is only a villain because they lose the battle, because when you think about it it's typically the winners of a war who write history.



I think it depends on the perspective. Typically we follow the protagonist and the antagonist isn't necessarily a villain, just someone who opposes the protagonist. The protagonist doesn't necessarily have to be a good guy or even someone who is morally good, just as the antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be evil. Take the Darth Bane trilogy for example. Bane is the protagonist of that story, but he's a sith, usually the villain of these Star Wars stories. The antagonist as a whole is the Jedi Order, usually the good guys in these stories. I don't think of the hero winning and the villain losing as a cliché. Certainly how it's executed could be a cliche, but I see the hero (as in the obvious good guy) winning and the villain (usually the evil bad morally reprehensible dude) as a convention. I think it's easy to conflate. XP 

That being said, and to properly respond to the topic at hand, I think one cliche I don't really outright hate, but I guess disappoints me is what I call the "willpower junkie". This is mostly in Shonen, where the hero gets something akin to an adrenaline boost and plows through whatever the threat of the day is regardless of superior the threat is in terms of skill or experience. I know it's supposed to be bombastic and such, but I would rather the hero lose and come back to fight the threat of the day having trained and gotten some skill and martial discipline, and win that way, instead of them just doping up on "muh willpower".


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## SwiftDog (Oct 2, 2019)

I can’t handle the chosen one trope in fantasy. Like no. Just no. Aaaaaaa


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## hara-surya (Oct 5, 2019)

Nax04 said:


> *I WANT THE VILLAIN TO FKNG WIN*
> Im tired of the stupid "good guys always defeat the bad guy" cliche, it happens all the time, oh the villain is 10000x times stronger than us? Meh its ok, we will win thanks to our love or something like that
> 
> 
> ...



"So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

I'm working on a novel right now where really Bad Things happen to some of the characters and there simply won't be a resolution that leads to a happy ending. Part of the story's theme is how powerless the main characters are to stop the antagonists and there isn't any way to change that dynamic. They can accept it, and learn to live with it, but they can't change it.


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## Nax04 (Oct 5, 2019)

ciaranskye said:


> "So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
> 
> I'm working on a novel right now where really Bad Things happen to some of the characters and there simply won't be a resolution that leads to a happy ending. Part of the story's theme is how powerless the main characters are to stop the antagonists and there isn't any way to change that dynamic. They can accept it, and learn to live with it, but they can't change it.


Sounds lovely


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 6, 2019)

unicorn_jr said:


> when comics are being produced and sold to comic shops, comic shops are forced to purchase titles that they know will sell well because of the monopoly Diamond Comic distributors holds over the marketing aspect of the industry, so often times new comics that have no foundational fanbase are passed up by shops. this can put women, LGBT+ people, and writers of color + the work that they put themselves into at a huge disadvantage in comparison to big name characters like the original Thor and Hulk runs! comic companies have found that keeping the character or comic run under the same name, but introducing a new cast, is an easier way to help diverse comic creators have their work bought by comic shops! thats one of the main factors of the Lady Thor switch, along with the girl Iron Man protagonist (whose name i forgot - whoops!), Miles Morales, and the Young Avengers' interpretation of Loki who's genderfluid! yeah, sometimes character switches like that can be fueled by a lack of ideas and a need for a fresh start, but a lot of the times its a way for companies to help their creators get their work out there! and it's really cool because it means old stories can have new life and experiences breathed into them and a new audience can begin to appreciate a character thats been revamped!!
> 
> also, a writing cliche i hate: i don't like when people describe outfits in excrutiating detail :c i feel like that's really common in young lit but it crops up in some adult genre stories ive read and it bogs it down for me a lot!! just say like "she was dressed in a long coat and tall shoes" or smth like that and i'll do the rest in my brain asdfghjhl


It’s an editor truism.  Young authors have to describe everything and keep an audience.  This is because everything is important when writing.  The assumption is that if you cannot completely describe it, it doesn’t exist.  So not describing loathed would mean characters are naked.


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## angel~the~kitty~kat (Oct 6, 2019)

fucking stop it with "the chosen one" like i got a list of reasons why i hate "the chosen one"
1. "the chosen one" is always some random dude who is *clearly* not fit to save the world but they're gonna cause oop *theyre the chosen one*
2. it's used so damn much you start to wonder who the fuck is choosing the chosen one and why they chose them
3. *half the time they dont even say who chose the chosen one or how they were chosen or anything theyre just chosen
*
ok im done i just fucking hate it


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## unicorn_jr (Oct 6, 2019)

Minerva_Minx said:


> It’s an editor truism.  Young authors have to describe everything and keep an audience.  This is because everything is important when writing.  The assumption is that if you cannot completely describe it, it doesn’t exist.  So not describing loathed would mean characters are naked.


that makes a lot of sense!! i think a lot of writers who're young or people who write for younger audiences also forget that their readers have their own mental interpretations of things even before they're described (like, as readers, we can imagine characters in a room before the room is described) so they give overly detailed descriptions of eeeeeverything to ensure their readers are imagining exactly what they want then to imagine. and that's super "oof" for me ajfhkfng


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Oct 7, 2019)

I'm not necessarily sick of the whole "chosen one" trope as I am seeing the individual who gets all the cool powers and gets all the glory be a guy, or at the very least a young boy. And the "chosen one" is almost always a white straight male too. Women, anyone of African, Native American, Asian or other descent would be nice, maybe see more LGBTQ representation... you know...that would be nice. Change it up a bit!


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## unicorn_jr (Oct 7, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> I'm not necessarily sick of the whole "chosen one" trope as I am seeing the individual who gets all the cool powers and gets all the glory be a guy, or at the very least a young boy. And the "chosen one" is almost always a white straight male too. Women, anyone of African, Native American, Asian or other descent would be nice, maybe see more LGBTQ representation... you know...that would be nice. Change it up a bit!


yeah!!! it's really cool to see different kinds of people lifted up and given power/agency in a story instead of just like. sad white high school boy #4, angry white adult man#30, sad angry white adult man #200, etc. being given all the world-saving responsibility. diversifying the role is a great step to liven up the Chosen One trope!!


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## angel~the~kitty~kat (Oct 7, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> I'm not necessarily sick of the whole "chosen one" trope as I am seeing the individual who gets all the cool powers and gets all the glory be a guy, or at the very least a young boy. And the "chosen one" is almost always a white straight male too. Women, anyone of African, Native American, Asian or other descent would be nice, maybe see more LGBTQ representation... you know...that would be nice. Change it up a bit!


mega agree!!!!


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## Kaane (Oct 7, 2019)

I feel like this cliche could be avoided more easily as long as there's a serious buildup to where the character needs to be.  A real zero to hero sort of thing, that makes you empathize with the character rather than hate him for just magically getting BS powers out of the blue.  Not to mention something that empowers you as a reader, makes you feel like you can be a "chosen one" in your own life, if that makes sense.  And there's definitely an opportunity to do that in books because of the methodical nature of the medium...but somehow the physical and especially the emotional struggles that come with filling such a "chosen one" role are often glossed over, which is a shame.


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## Keefur (Oct 7, 2019)

ciaranskye said:


> "So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
> 
> I'm working on a novel right now where really Bad Things happen to some of the characters and there simply won't be a resolution that leads to a happy ending. Part of the story's theme is how powerless the main characters are to stop the antagonists and there isn't any way to change that dynamic. They can accept it, and learn to live with it, but they can't change it.


I just had to reply to this. I did this parody poster not too long ago...


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Haha! The poster is great!
Another thing is...as much as I love anime...why is it that the main character is usually powerful because his parents are powerful? You have Naruto who I enjoyed watching due to him struggling at first but then eventually coming to his own and tapping into his potential...but then you find out his parents were these great legendary ninjas as well. Ichigo from Bleach, you find out he's so strong and powerful because his dad's a soul reaper. (I think the manga reveals he's also part quincy...which is interesting and I wish the show had touched base on it instead of throwing all those fillers at us). Even Goku in the Dragon Ball universe you find out his father was a strong, powerful sayajin and went super sayajin against an ancestor of Frieza...which I think it's interesting that some of the sayajin race got transported through time and space instead of actually being wiped out...but come on! The super sayajin transformation, as awesome as it is, isn't special anymore.
I do like that Saitama broke that trope in One Punch Man though. He became strong because he worked for it. 
And don't get me wrong I love Harry Potter...but I do wonder why JK chose to make Harry a guy. We already know she sort of "hid" her real name because the publisher didn't think boys would want to read a book written by a woman...which...I think is ridiculous. XD Full Metal Alchemist was a great anime story, and that was written by a woman. Back to the point, it was brought up Neville might have been the real chosen one. 
Suppose someone is marked the chosen one, only to find out it was someone else the whole time? That would be interesting too I think. Especially if it's someone you didn't expect.


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## FlareAeon (Oct 8, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Haha! The poster is great!
> Another thing is...as much as I love anime...why is it that the main character is usually powerful because his parents are powerful? You have Naruto who I enjoyed watching due to him struggling at first but then eventually coming to his own and tapping into his potential...but then you find out his parents were these great legendary ninjas as well. Ichigo from Bleach, you find out he's so strong and powerful because his dad's a soul reaper. (I think the manga reveals he's also part quincy...which is interesting and I wish the show had touched base on it instead of throwing all those fillers at us). Even Goku in the Dragon Ball universe you find out his father was a strong, powerful sayajin and went super sayajin against an ancestor of Frieza...which I think it's interesting that some of the sayajin race got transported through time and space instead of actually being wiped out...but come on! The super sayajin transformation, as awesome as it is, isn't special anymore.
> I do like that Saitama broke that trope in One Punch Man though. He became strong because he worked for it.
> And don't get me wrong I love Harry Potter...but I do wonder why JK chose to make Harry a guy. We already know she sort of "hid" her real name because the publisher didn't think boys would want to read a book written by a woman...which...I think is ridiculous. XD Full Metal Alchemist was a great anime story, and that was written by a woman. Back to the point, it was brought up Neville might have been the real chosen one.
> Suppose someone is marked the chosen one, only to find out it was someone else the whole time? That would be interesting too I think. Especially if it's someone you didn't expect.



I don't think we should discredit someone's effort, hard work, and training just because they happen to have some sort of badass lineage.  I see this happen just as much as the 'chosen one' archetype. If anything, someone's efforts to improve and better themselves only for it to be taken for granted because "oh, your mom/dad/family is badass so of course you're going to be badass" would make for a more compelling and relatable character than Saitama will ever be, but that's just my opinion. Getting back to this, Naruto, Ichigo, and even Goku, still had to train to attain most of their power. That much is fact. Sure some of them (mostly Naruto) arguably had some handouts. But Naruto still had to train to learn the Rasengan. He still had to train to attain Sage Mode. Goku still had to do a bunch of training just to catch up with and defeat Vegeta. Ichigo still had to train to obtain his Bankai. They deserve some modicum of acknowledgment. None of these characters were automatically good at combat just because their parents or ancestors are good at combat. These characters worked for their power just as much as Saitama. Sure, Saitama doesn't have badass parents or ancestors (that we know of at least) but I wouldn't say he's a better character for it. He's just as compelling as any of the three previously mentioned shonen protags.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Oct 9, 2019)

FlareAeon said:


> I don't think we should discredit someone's effort, hard work, and training just because they happen to have some sort of badass lineage.  I see this happen just as much as the 'chosen one' archetype. If anything, someone's efforts to improve and better themselves only for it to be taken for granted because "oh, your mom/dad/family is badass so of course you're going to be badass" would make for a more compelling and relatable character than Saitama will ever be, but that's just my opinion. Getting back to this, Naruto, Ichigo, and even Goku, still had to train to attain most of their power. That much is fact. Sure some of them (mostly Naruto) arguably had some handouts. But Naruto still had to train to learn the Rasengan. He still had to train to attain Sage Mode. Goku still had to do a bunch of training just to catch up with and defeat Vegeta. Ichigo still had to train to obtain his Bankai. They deserve some modicum of acknowledgment. None of these characters were automatically good at combat just because their parents or ancestors are good at combat. These characters worked for their power just as much as Saitama. Sure, Saitama doesn't have badass parents or ancestors (that we know of at least) but I wouldn't say he's a better character for it. He's just as compelling as any of the three previously mentioned shonen protags.



Well that is a good point. Without the training it wouldn't matter how great his parents were, with regards to Naruto. Technically, both he and Goku got lucky. Naruto was already part of the ninja village and had people looking after him, with Goku he just happened to land near Gohan who was a student of Master Roshi.
Bleach...it's a great anime but there's a lot that doesn't make sense. If Soul Reapers are supposed to be spirit based, how is it they can still bleed and stuff? How come it wasn't one of his sisters who was lucky enough to get those powers instead? Of course, the real reason for that is because the writers were trying to appeal to a male audience. Unfortunately most shoujo  anime, or anime aimed at girls doesn't appeal to me as much as shounen, or anime appealing to guys does. I'd love to see a "shounen" type of anime with a female protagonist. Sailer Moon, while having adorable talking cats in it, doesn't cut it for me. Granted, there's a lot of great shoujo anime out there, but shounen is more actiony, which is what I like.
Granted I do have a theory, with western audiences interested in anime and a lot of american girls steering toward the shounen side of things, it's kind of nice that they had some female Sayajins in Dragon Ball Super. I'm hoping more gaming/anime writers take notice of that. 
You are right, they weren't just automatically good at combat. In fact, they had more to live up to because of that heritage. Thanks for pointing it out.
But I do also like seeing more underdogs becoming powerful as well. And more girl power! We need more characters like Erza Scarlet (Fairy Tale.) 
Oh and there is one more pet peeve of mine...please stop focusing SO much on the woman's anatomy! Focus on what makes her strong, not her cleavage for crying out loud! lol


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## MM13 (Jun 29, 2020)

Face Heel Turns...especially RP-wise and if it's a character that we're suppose to like. We're suppose to route for this guy but all of a sudden upon getting transformed he's all...'screw humans they should be more like me' and assimilates every human character into being like him?  Well he just blew a chance to become likable, this could be fixed if they either A: made him a villain/antagonist to be with.  B: Made it so he is only pretending to be friends with the main character because he wants to use him/her for their own gain, C:  Have him work for the antagonist/monster but have it so he takes a liking to the main character and sympathizes with them and only does what he does to them because he has no other say in the matter,  or D: Have him start off as a villain/jerk to begin with then maybe through the encounter with the villain/monster he learns to better himself because he sees himself in that monster,  like him and the monster are the same in terms of their goals and how they act, realize how much of a horrid person he has been and redeem himself with the help of said monster.

That and also 'world domination endings'.  World domination to me is overdone.  Also hive-mind when applied to non-insect creatures, I am not against trying something different with monsters it's just i'm not sure it's right for a werecreature or monster that isn't insect-like to have that kind of human hating 'one of us' type mentalities, it would make more sense if it wasn't an actual hive-mind scenario and more like they are conditioned into thinking like that, it's just I can't see a werewolf (a species I don't view as evil since they are tragic creatures when you think about it) forcing others to be like them.


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## Zerzehn (Jun 29, 2020)

For me, it's the whole "always evil" trope. I mean, how can an entire species be evil and I would also ask the writer to define what "evil" is to them.


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## Raever (Jun 29, 2020)

Zerzehn said:


> For me, it's the whole "always evil" trope. I mean, how can an entire species be evil and I would also ask the writer to define what "evil" is to them.



Thanks, I was hoping someone would say this.
I mean- even is a species is inherently cruel due to their societal structure that doesn't make them "evil". It just makes them have different customs which can be perceived as evil and THAT is always fun to write. Outsiders looking in and all that. <3


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## FluffyShutterbug (Jun 29, 2020)

This isn't a writing-specific cliche, but a cliche nonetheless.
I'm sick of characters of the opposite sex of the main character being written into a story merely to be a love interest of the protagonist.
Maybe it's because I want more LGBT representation in media, but yeah...
This is specifically because I wish that Fox McCloud would've fallen in love with Wolf O'Donnell instead of Krystal...


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## Zerzehn (Jun 29, 2020)

Raever said:


> Thanks, I was hoping someone would say this.
> I mean- even is a species is inherently cruel due to their societal structure that doesn't make them "evil". It just makes them have different customs which can be perceived as evil and THAT is always fun to write. Outsiders looking in and all that. <3


Makes me think of the worldbuilding of Tamriel. The mer and beast races of ES has a lot of strange customs according to men, such as...



Spoiler: Altmer




They believe unmaking the universe is a good thing because they believe Lorkhan tricked them.
Infanticide of progeny that is undesirable in someway isn't evil, it's in fact a mercy.








Spoiler: Bosmer




Cannibalism is allowable because the decay of a dead body in Valenwood would ruin it.
They don't harm plant life as a part of the Green Pact and thus, most things from Valenwood are animal products.








Spoiler: Dunmer




It's fine to sicc legal assassins from the Morag Tong.
In an exception to the no necromancy rule, they can raise the bodies and spirits of their ancestors for aid.








Spoiler: Khajiit




There's no such thing as rules.
Otherwise, they're the least weird in terms of non-human race morality.








Spoiler: Argonian




Their table manners are very strange by human standards, like they allow birds to pick their teeth clean. Also when they sleep, like putting live centipedes for the feeling of them walking all over em.
They live in today.


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## Rayd (Jun 29, 2020)

when a story has aliens that speak english as their primary language. this can be made better with translators, or having a logical reason why they or a select few know english, but for an alien race that uses english as their _primary language _outright kind of takes the mystique of them being aliens away for me. i also just can't help but feel it's lazy. it makes media easier to write and digest and more entertaining at times, but from a story standpoint i think it's pretty dumb.

when all females in an action/thriller story either have to be a smart snarky hacker, a damsel in distress or an independent badass. why can't you give them some sort of personality, or at least a different trope we don't see ALL the time?

speaking of hacking, i cringe hard whenever i experience "I'M HACKING INTO THE MAINFRAME" kind of shit in movies or games, when they just make up phrases or words to sound like they know anything about it. which is only made worse with visuals of them tapping at a keyboard and suddenly somehow accomplishing whatever they wanted to do, and saying some cringy one-liner like "_Bingo_." like fuck off lol.

when a story makes up dumb excuses to make threats more plausible, like the entirety of dragonball z, how they need to fight every enemy 1v1 because "muh saiyan pride!" - why can't you write an actual reason as to why the antagonist is threatening, meaningful, and has the upper hand instead of just making up some lame excuse that hinders the protagonists the entire length of the story? how is it at all believable that somebody like goku, gohan or vegeta is willing to risk their families dying and the entire earth to be destroyed because they want to fight somebody not only alone, but at their strongest? saiyan pride was a cheap throw-in to be used as a writer's tool, and honestly, the entire franchise is full of cheap throw-ins to even make the story barely work. it makes characters seem one dimensional as fuck. it's also one of the big reasons why the franchise has a graveyard of beyond useless characters, too.

i know i'm missing a lot of tropes that annoy me, and that annoys me. i'll come back when i think of more, though.


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## reptile logic (Jun 30, 2020)

It's writing writing cliches, only to find out that by writing those writing cliches, those who read said writing cliches, which I have written, are annoyed. *makes notes*


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## Raever (Jul 1, 2020)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> This isn't a writing-specific cliche, but a cliche nonetheless.
> I'm sick of characters of the opposite sex of the main character being written into a story merely to be a love interest of the protagonist.
> Maybe it's because I want more LGBT representation in media, but yeah...
> This is specifically because I wish that Fox McCloud would've fallen in love with Wolf O'Donnell instead of Krystal...



I have this issue too, especially when their relationship had already been established as a sibling-like or best friend like bond.
Sometimes, characters are far more fun to read as friends. Romance need not apply to every story. Maybe I'm too Grey-Ace for that though.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jul 1, 2020)

- The female protagonist who's young and innocent, a bit nerdy and very relatable to the reader but also oddly beautiful, who don't need no man but still has an experienced, older man by her side who shows her the ropes of whatever is happening.

- Drama for the sake of drama, which is so dramatic that the writer forgot to build up a connection to whatever is happening or to whomever things are happening, leaving me as the reader with a bland and boring feeling.

- The young protagonist who is good at everything, especially fighting but also talking, probably the bast among whatever ranks they're in but miraculously "just 20 years old!"
Plus points if they killed like 50 people already in their short life but received no trauma whatsoever from it.




Raever said:


> I have this issue too, especially when their relationship had already been established as a sibling-like or best friend like bond.
> Sometimes, characters are far more fun to read as friends. Romance need not apply to every story. Maybe I'm too Grey-Ace for that though.


You're not, I share this thought 100% while being gay as fehk


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 1, 2020)

Cliches....ah, I know one. The classic Hollywood one. People have an issue, guy fights over a girl that either was defenseless, (like in all things for some reason), or he had a love interest for, battle, descending actions, depression, rising action because of help, good guy stops baddie, gets girl back, entirely too cliche kiss at the end. I say one thing to this: W h y?


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## Zehlua (Jul 2, 2020)

Forced love interests and shitty love triangles. Also, the "You lied to me?" plot move-along-er. FUCKING HATE IT.


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## hara-surya (Jul 2, 2020)

Mental illness as an excuse for a violent character. In all truth the mentally ill are more likely to be the victims of violence than perpetrate it.

Mental illness as an excuse for bizarre behavior. Mental illnesses have well defined sets of symptoms and while some behaviors might seem bizarre there's a logic to them.

Being "psychotic" does not mean being violent. It mean having a disconnect from reality and is common in schizophrenia and bipolar I mania. Someone having a psychotic episode could be catatonic.

Likewise, the labels "psychopath" and "sociopath" aren't used as a diagnosis in psychiatry. There is an array of personality disorders that are related to those behaviors and "antisocial personality disorder" and "narcissistic personality disorder" both fall under that colloquial label. Also, they tend not to be randomly violent and often rise to level of high power in business and politics. (And that all I have to say about that.)

A named mental illness depicted wrong:

Schizophrenia isn't multiple personalities. (For that matter it's an open question in clinical psychology whether multiple personalities are real or not.) It's not just hearing voices or seeing things, "bizarre delusions" are a more common symptom. It is a crippling disease more likely to leave you catatonic or in a confused stupor than anything else. It is almost unheard of for a schizophrenic to be violent, even when reacting to their delusions and hallucinations. For what it's worth, it's hard to depict well and even the film "A Beautiful Mind" took major liberties depicting John Nash's symptoms.

Depression can also be crippling. You don't want to do anything, not even attempt suicide. (Which is why antidepressants can lead to a suicide risk, you start to come out of the depression enough to actually follow through with the attempt.) It's not romantic and it causes creative block.

PTSD is a complex, scary disorder and the only time I've seen it portrayed accurately on screen was on the Netflix show Jessica Jones. She is a super-heroically strong woman who cannot be injured, but is cripplingly scared when a reflection in a window reminds her of her abuser. When a trauma is triggered the person's fight-or-flight response is triggered and there's often no good way to resolve it. Freezing up and violent outbursts are both common in equal measures. It's also a huge risk for people who have lived through trauma in life, like all the violence that happens in action movies. (My ex-wife had PTSD from an abusive mother and it's hard to live with even when you're not the one suffering from it.)

The swings in bipolar disorder often take weeks and months to play out and frequently align with seasonal changes.


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## Anna (Jul 2, 2020)

It sounds very silly when you hear in the movies or tv series saying something like "it's not a movie"


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 2, 2020)

"Oh Mr. Kennedy, the American prevailing is a cliche only happens in your Hollywood movies! Oh Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me! And for that, I will help you awaken from your realm of cliches."-Salazar, Resident Evil 4

His quote accurately sums up what I think. American prevailing. Need I say more?


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## TyraWadman (Jul 2, 2020)

Self-destructive character continues to do self-destructive things?!?!?
_HOW WILL THIS POSSIBLY END_??!?


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 2, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> Self-destructive character continues to do self-destructive things?!?!?
> _HOW WILL THIS POSSIBLY END_??!?



Or how about pointless sacrifices with characters that actually blow up? I Am Legend?


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## TyraWadman (Jul 2, 2020)

Ruki-the-Zorua said:


> Or how about pointless sacrifices with characters that actually blow up? I Am Legend?


I haven't seen it but I'll take your word for it. XD


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## TyraWadman (Jul 2, 2020)

Another one I just remembered- 
AH
YOU HAVE AMNESIA
AND YOU'LL MOST LIKELY REGAIN CONSCIOUSNESS ON THE BEACH, BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN MAKE THE READER FEEL COMPLETELY IMMERSED, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT A "CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE" BOOK.


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 2, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> Another one I just remembered-
> AH
> YOU HAVE AMNESIA
> AND YOU'LL MOST LIKELY REGAIN CONSCIOUSNESS ON THE BEACH, BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN MAKE THE READER FEEL COMPLETELY IMMERSED, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT A "CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE" BOOK.



Ah yes, every movie so far.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 2, 2020)

Ruki-the-Zorua said:


> Ah yes, every movie so far.


And a lot of video games. Early 2000's, every MMO I played had it.


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 2, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> And a lot of video games. Early 2000's, every MMO I played had it.



It's really irritating in that sense. Why so much forgetfulness?!?


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## Punji (Jul 2, 2020)

One thing I really don't like is when an object exists in a story or setting purely to act as exposition or as a mcguffin, and that the only objects of any particular importance are as such.

It doesn't seem very realistic when the plot/story/characters draw special attention to something only when it matters to the plot and never at any other time. It seems unnatural to me. People often remark at notable things with no importance to their lives and promptly forget about it. In films or stories when a character draws special attention to something it's usually relevant to the plot or will be in the future.

One of the many great things The Last of Us did was have Ellie and Joel stop and talk about things in the environment every so often. Ellie stops and looks at a poster for a movie in one scene with an optional dialogue trigger for the player. It makes the characters and world seem more believable when they react in the way a normal person might. In this instance, Ellie seems like a real person with a real personality, interested in some relatively pointless spectacle.

I often enjoy seeing characters react or value innate things based on their personalities. For example, a story could have a number of characters who are frequently seen drinking coffee. One character however is always drinking out of the same mug in every scene. In my opinion, a lesser story would make the mug important to the story somehow, and a better one would make the mug important to the character. It's not some magical artifact or super rare collector's item worth millions as a means of solving a problem in the story, it's just that character's favourite coffee mug.


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 2, 2020)

Punji said:


> One thing I really don't like is when an object exists in a story or setting purely to act as exposition or as a mcguffin, and that the only objects of any particular importance are as such.
> 
> It doesn't seem very realistic when the plot/story/characters draw special attention to something only when it matters to the plot and never at any other time. It seems unnatural to me. People often remark at notable things with no importance to their lives and promptly forget about it. In films or stories when a character draws special attention to something it's usually relevant to the plot or will be in the future.
> 
> ...



I get you there pal. Happens a lot for some reason.


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## MainHammond (Jul 2, 2020)

Literature is as old as humanity , so most things have been done before.
But I hate Isekais, and the Liar Reveal moments, and when our totally not special protagonist suddenly is the son of a living god or something, or the chosen one, or both (Naruto , One Piece)


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2020)

MainHammond said:


> Literature is as old as humanity , so most things have been done before.
> But I hate Isekais, and the Liar Reveal moments, and when our totally not special protagonist suddenly is the son of a living god or something, or the chosen one, or both (Naruto , One Piece)



Ah yeah, or in Jojo when Giorno is the son of Dio. (Then again this is revealed pretty early on and most of Girono's crew don't know it, but it's still there that he's randomly the son of the main villain in the previous installments of the series. Also, Naruto's 'nine-tailed fox' reveal was like in the first few episodes as well. )


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## MainHammond (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm ok with Naruto  having the Nine Tailed Fox inside.
What bothers me is when suddenly he is child of the prophecy of the frogs, he is the son of the 4th hokage and he is the Heir of the Will of Fire.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2020)

MainHammond said:


> I'm ok with Naruto  having the Nine Tailed Fox inside.
> What bothers me is when suddenly he is child of the prophecy of the frogs, he is the son of the 4th hokage and he is the Heir of the Will of Fire.



Yeah, that really is annoying when they're the "chosen one!" I'm much into characters who make their own destiny. Dio himself was just some punk with a bad drunken parent until he became lucky and a vampire. If anything the Joestar bloodline is more prophetic than  Dio's own origins.


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## _Ivory_ (Jul 2, 2020)

"I waited seconds that felt like hours"
I read that everywhere, and i mean... EVERYWHERE!


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 2, 2020)

_Ivory_ said:


> "I waited seconds that felt like hours"
> I read that everywhere, and i mean... EVERYWHERE!



Is it because characters are impatient or because time elapses slowly in the story?


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## MainHammond (Jul 2, 2020)

Is it Dragon Ball ?


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## MM13 (Jul 2, 2020)

Raever said:


> Thanks, I was hoping someone would say this.
> I mean- even is a species is inherently cruel due to their societal structure that doesn't make them "evil". It just makes them have different customs which can be perceived as evil and THAT is always fun to write. Outsiders looking in and all that. <3



I don't go entirely by 'pure evil' or 'pure good' since most of the time when it comes to monster rules and alignments since most of the time I tend to use the Dungeons and Dragons alignment system when it comes to aligning my characters.


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## BlackDragonAJ89 (Jul 2, 2020)

Perhaps the single biggest thing I can't stand is "evil races" in most settings (this is especially a thing in most fantasy and science fantasy works). No way could one whole race of something, whether it's orcs, snake people, starfish aliens, or anything of that sort could all be "evil". 

Likewise, if I had to single out which genre I don't really like the most, it's probably going to be fantasy because it's mostly composed of awful racist, sexist, and unfortunate tropes. Sure, I may say a lot about science fantasy, but science fantasy is the _most childish_ of genres you can write.


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## _Ivory_ (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Is it because characters are impatient or because time elapses slowly in the story?


Yes of course but im sure there could be so many other ways to describe that thing instead of the usual cliche frase. It annoys me whenever i see it


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## Skittles (Jul 3, 2020)

This thread reads like.. "Just stop writing!! ARRRRGH!!!" Heh. 

Some valid points made though.


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## JuniperW (Jul 3, 2020)

My least favourite are the useless, emotionless love interests that act like controlling bastards. Or in general, any kind of trope that romanticises abuse and other disgusting things.


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## Guifrog (Jul 3, 2020)

Skittles said:


> This thread reads like.. "Just stop writing!! ARRRRGH!!!" Heh.
> 
> Some valid points made though.


I get the feels, it's kinda like the drawn art pet peeves one from back then. We all have 'em anyway
It's pretty subjective when you're not aiming for realism or being serious about it. And dependable on your target audience. Peeps' brains are different and stuff


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

JuniperW said:


> My least favourite are the useless, emotionless love interests that act like controlling bastards. Or in general, any kind of trope that romanticises abuse and other disgusting things.



So Saskue and Sakura's relationship in Naruto. XD


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

BlackDragonAJ89 said:


> but science fantasy is the _most childish_ of genres you can write.



Ow my heart. </3
I thought you loved me. Q~Q
Wait- actually, if by childish you imaginative...then yeah, you're probably right.

To follow up, I think that what you said about fantasy is unfortunately true, but not in the overarching sense. I think fantasy allows for anything, whereas something like modern fiction or cyberpunk etc might not technically. Fantasy, especially dark fantasy or medieval, shapes it's world on older customs and cultures that are very outdated and by extension ARE racist, sexist, etc. but the reason that they're like that is usually (or at least supposed to be) due to tasteful story telling. Yet, this opens the door for untalented writers to just live in a fantasy where their BS can reign free and it's really sickening to read sometimes. Those tropes are definitely the worst of the worst. Hands down.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> Ow my heart. </3
> I thought you loved me. Q~Q
> Wait- actually, if my childish you imaginative...then yeah, you're probably right.
> 
> To follow up, I think that what you said about fantasy is unfortunately true, but not in the overarching sense. I think fantasy allows for anything, whereas something like modern fiction or cyberpunk etc might not technically. Fantasy, especially dark fantasy or medieval, shapes it's world on older customs and cultures that are very outdated and by extension ARE racist, sexist, etc. but the reason that they're like that is usually (or at least supposed to be) due to tasteful story telling. Yet, this opens the door for untalented writers to just live in a fantasy where their BS can reign free and it's really sickening to read sometimes. Those tropes are definitely the worst of the worst. Hands down.



Warhammer fantasy is about surviving in a universe where vampires, orcs, and the legions of Chaos and Skaven want to kill you for not being a mutant, witch, or simply not being a monster. I don't see where racism in dark fantasy would come about, other than the Druchii are slavers, but that's because they're 'dark' elves. Dark fantasy really doesn't have to equate to what we would call the human racism. It's simple, monsters are rarely on your side and they want you dead. Just like in 40k, the alien is always out to get you. This is not racism, it is survival against things that can easily murder your puny little human self.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Warhammer fantasy is about surviving in a universe where vampires, orcs, and the legions of Chaos and Skaven want to kill you for not being a mutant, witch, or simply not being a monster. I don't see where racism in dark fantasy would come about, other than the Druchii are slavers, but that's because they're 'dark' elves. Dark fantasy really doesn't have to equate to what we would call the human race. It's simple, monsters are rarely on your side and they want you dead. Just like in 40k, the alien is always out to get you. This is not racism, it is survival against things that can easily murder your puny little human self.



I think you misunderstand me. Racism (when I say it in this context) was not meant to mean a "black vs white human species" thing. I mean....literal "race"ism (not to take away from the other but, word stuff and such).  A snake person hating a rat person because they are rat persons. That can arguably be called "racism" and that sort of thing is everywhere in fantasy, and bad morally deranged writers - few and far between thank goodness - tend to use that as a scapegoat for their own, uhhhh....hm. Fantasies? Ironically enough? Not sure how to explain it better, but I think you get my point. Is it racist in the modern sense? No. Can overly sensitive people be hurt by tastefully conflicting races? Yes. Can non-overly sensitive people be offended by obvious messages and poor writing? Absolutely. That's basically my point. I think a weird but interesting example would be The Nutcracker. That was a, uh, really weird script for sure. Rat nazi's and toy jewish folk. No joke.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> I think you misunderstand me. Racism (when I say it in this context) was not meant to mean a "black vs white human species" thing. I mean....literal "race"ism (not to take away from the other but, word stuff and such).  A snake person hating a rat person because they are rat persons. That can arguably be called "racism" and that sort of thing is everywhere in fantasy, and bad morally deranged writers - few and far between thank goodness - tend to use that as a scapegoat for their own, uhhhh....hm. Fantasies? Ironically enough? Not sure how to explain it better, but I think you get my point. Is it racist in the modern sense? No. Can overly sensitive people be hurt by tastefully conflicting races? Yes. Can non-overly sensitive people be offended by obvious messages and poor writing? Absolutely. That's basically my point. I think a weird but interesting example would be The Nutcracker. That was a, uh, really weird script for sure. Rat nazi's and toy jewish folk. No joke.



I get you, but I am merely stating that while we could call this specism or human supremacy, and while yes it is on the hands of many writers. There are some series where "you or me" wins out in a battle for survival. Now granted, this also is about what you 'want' in your dark fantasy. For example, in Warhammer Fantasy, you can very well be that race that can knock around, zap with magic, or utterly murder the tiny peon humans. I see your example as what we would hypothetically call between an Argonian or a Khajit. In Elder Scrolls this species racism can be very much abused, and you are correct it depends on how 'enthusiastic' the writers are for human supremacy. (Even in Warhammer's case, there are a LOT of people in Games workshop who favor the Imperium/Sigmar over every other race.) However, there are instances you can be that race and have them win (like in any Warhammer game where you be the super mega powerful chaos army or elves/Eldar.) It all depends really.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I get you, but I am merely stating that while we could call this specism or human supremacy, and while yes it is on the hands of many writers. There are some series where "you or me" wins out in a battle for survival. Now granted, this also is about what you 'want' in your dark fantasy. For example, in Warhammer Fantasy, you can very well be that race that can knock around, zap with magic, or utterly murder the tiny peon humans. I see your example as what we would hypothetically call between an Argonian or a Khajit. In Elder Scrolls this species racism can be very much abused, and you are correct it depends on how 'enthusiastic' the writers are for human supremacy. (Even in Warhammer's case, there are a LOT of people in Games workshop who favor the Imperium/Sigmar over every other race.) However, there are instances you can be that race and have them win (like in any Warhammer game where you be the super mega powerful chaos army or elves/Eldar.) It all depends really.



This needs to be it's own thread if we plan on debating this, but honestly, it doesn't feel worth the debate.
In the end it can be summed up easily; Stories have free reign, and the creators of those stories can build whatever they want.
Good or bad. Well read or sloppy. That's just writing. I happen to think stories with "older" times tend to have more "outdated" cultures.
As it would only make sense, no? That can spark an amazing read, or a disgusting mind trip. Depending on the writer, and all that.
That's the last I'll say on this though.


Another writing trope I dislike? Sudden power. Not mary sue just...you spent a day, and now you know what a soldier knows. I wanna see more of the struggle, even if you show it a little bit. I would absolutely read a whole book of struggle just to feel like the growth was something I was apart of by the end of it.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> This needs to be it's own thread if we plan on debating this, but honestly, it doesn't feel worth the debate.
> In the end it can be summed up easily; Stories have free reign, and the creators of those stories can build whatever they want.
> Good or bad. Well read or sloppy. That's just writing. I happen to think stories with "older" times tend to have more "outdated" cultures.
> As it would only make sense, no? That can spark an amazing read, or a disgusting mind trip. Depending on the writer, and all that.



Yeah, Warhammer for the first few editions were rather silly tbh, like I am pissed that they took out Squats and Beastmen for the Imperium, when for years they had those in codexes and those were 'legal' armies to play in tournaments. But yeah, sometimes writers can be very immature about 'humans over everyone derp!' One reason I make the humans the utter losers in my Dimensional Wars lore, but on the inverse I have my main villains understand humans so they're more like 'well we hate to fight you too' on the monster end.


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## Draakc from State Farm (Jul 3, 2020)

Ok so this happens WHENEVER there's a character that doesn't talk 
And it ANNOYS the shit out of me 
Always without fail there will be a scene where the silent character and talking character are communicating 
And the talking character says "what," and then repeats what the silent character supposedly said 
It happens ALL THE TIME


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

Draakc The Flying Lizard said:


> Ok so this happens WHENEVER there's a character that doesn't talk
> And it ANNOYS the shit out of me
> Always without fail there will be a scene where the silent character and talking character are communicating
> And the talking character says "what," and then repeats what the silent character supposedly said
> ...



I was more along the lines of "oh please can you tell me more about my father, mother, son, where did he go?" Cliche.


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## BlackDragonAJ89 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> Ow my heart. </3
> I thought you loved me. Q~Q
> Wait- actually, if by childish you imaginative...then yeah, you're probably right.
> 
> To follow up, I think that what you said about fantasy is unfortunately true, but not in the overarching sense. I think fantasy allows for anything, whereas something like modern fiction or cyberpunk etc might not technically. Fantasy, especially dark fantasy or medieval, shapes it's world on older customs and cultures that are very outdated and by extension ARE racist, sexist, etc. but the reason that they're like that is usually (or at least supposed to be) due to tasteful story telling. Yet, this opens the door for untalented writers to just live in a fantasy where their BS can reign free and it's really sickening to read sometimes. Those tropes are definitely the worst of the worst. Hands down.



Science fantasy is childish in the sense that it lets too much escapism and "creativity" get in the way of any actual theme or storytelling. I mean I _"get it"_ in this age of New Sincerity; "feel goodness" and "I believe therefore it's true" wide-eyed immaturity idealism is all the rage these days with people pumping out stories about super awesome superheroes and dragons beating up great evils and going on grand adventures, but what does it really bring to the table? I can't relate to characters like super heroes, elven warriors, and other silly nonsense like that. Maybe if I was six it would be different, but we all grow up and outgrow the kitchen-sink style of make believe. 

Fantasy is just old stuff that, while not always childish (although "dudebro" might come to mind with all the ridiculous amounts of sex and killing involved) has for the most part overstayed it's welcome as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of destiny, fate, and "great men" calling all the shots in dung-age era worlds.

People are (at least around here) terrified of science fiction because it tends to concern itself with trying to be grounded in reality in some form or another, often being more analytical and philosophical than flat out escapist. However, I truly think the "scariest" genre for many young writers is *Literary Fiction*. Because when there are no magical powers, no super heroes, and destiny is just a silly word, people seem to freak out. Unless you're one of those people who see it as "100,000 words where nothing happens."


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

BlackDragonAJ89 said:


> Science fantasy is childish in the sense that it lets too much escapism and "creativity" get in the way of any actual theme or storytelling. I mean I _"get it"_ in this age of New Sincerity; "feel goodness" and "I believe therefore it's true" wide-eyed immaturity idealism is all the rage these days with people pumping out stories about super awesome superheroes and dragons beating up great evils and going on grand adventures, but what does it really bring to the table? I can't relate to characters like super heroes, elven warriors, and other silly nonsense like that. Maybe if I was six it would be different, but we all grow up and outgrow the kitchen-sink style of make believe.
> 
> Fantasy is just old stuff that, while not always childish (although "dudebro" might come to mind with all the ridiculous amounts of sex and killing involved) has for the most part overstayed it's welcome as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of destiny, fate, and "great men" calling all the shots in dung-age era worlds.
> 
> People are (at least around here) terrified of science fiction because it tends to concern itself with trying to be grounded in reality in some form or another, often being more analytical and philosophical than flat out escapist. However, I truly think the "scariest" genre for many young writers is *Literary Fiction*. Because when there are no magical powers, no super heroes, and destiny is just a silly word, people seem to freak out. Unless you're one of those people who see it as "100,000 words where nothing happens."



Wow, as someone who likes superheroes, 8ft metahumans in powerarmor, and dystopian themes where you can get zapped by lasers for saying the wrong thing. I have to wholeheartedly say you're full of it. Yes, you can have relatable characters and have them be out there, you look to their personalities and who they are and how they use their gifts. I'm not 'terrified' of science fiction, it's literally my favorite genre. Nuclear war, climate change, big asteroid coming to wipe us all out, black holes, aliens, I love all that shit. Also, I love historical stories about WW1, WW2, and the Cold War. shit that went down IRL, hell I love reading about Chernyoble.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Wow, as someone who likes superheroes, 8ft metahumans in powerarmor, and dystopian themes where you can get zapped by lasers for saying the wrong thing. I have to wholeheartedly say you're full of it. Yes, you can have relatable characters and have them be out there, you look to their personalities and who they are and how they use their gifts. I'm not 'terrified' of science fiction, it's literally my favorite genre. Nuclear war, climate change, big asteroid coming to wipe us all out, black holes, aliens, I love all that shit. Also, I love historical stories about WW1, WW2, and the Cold War. shit that went down IRL, hell I love reading about Chernyoble.



Now, now people can have differing opinions ~
Albeit yes, the post can come off as quite, er...what's a good word for it....cynical? I don't think they mean to insult fans. They just clearly aren't a fan of the genre. That's chill. :/
Unless they do mean to insult fans. Which in that case - GAME OOOOOOON!


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> Now, now people can have differing opinions ~
> Albeit yes, the post can come off as quite, er...what's a good word for it....cynical? I don't think they mean to insult fans. They just clearly aren't a fan of the genre. That's chill. :/



I guess but the "you are all children for liking what I don't like!" sounds very juvenile. I fucking loved Hacksaw Ridge and Saving Private Ryan, you want to ask me what is "juvenile" a slice of a life romance novel, fuck that shit. Give me some fucking Operation Overlord or Battle of Io Jima stuff. I'm more interested in Operation Market Garden than your romantic sub-plot. Heck, give me stories about the nice farm guy in Vietnam who had to be forced to fight a war he didn't want to.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Draakc The Flying Lizard said:


> Ok so this happens WHENEVER there's a character that doesn't talk
> And it ANNOYS the shit out of me
> Always without fail there will be a scene where the silent character and talking character are communicating
> And the talking character says "what," and then repeats what the silent character supposedly said
> ...



You make a fair point. I love the ones where they go, "You don't speak much do ya?" and make you WANT to help without making you "communicate" you wanting to help. They did this in Halo for a bit and that was cool. Dead Space had it too.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I guess but the "you are all children for liking what I don't like!" sounds very juvenile. I fucking loved Hacksaw Ridge and Saving Private Ryan, you want to ask me what is "juvenile" a slice of a life romance novel, fuck that shit. Give me some fucking Operation Overlord or Battle of Io Jima stuff. I'm more interested in Operation Market Garden than your romantic sub-plot. Heck, give me stories about the nice farm guy in Vietnam who had to be forced to fight a war he didn't want to.



I didn't see a mention of "you're" or "you" in any of their post...let's not get uppity over a strong opinion. 
We're all mature fluffy-butts, are we not?


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## TyraWadman (Jul 3, 2020)

Draakc The Flying Lizard said:


> Ok so this happens WHENEVER there's a character that doesn't talk
> And it ANNOYS the shit out of me
> Always without fail there will be a scene where the silent character and talking character are communicating
> And the talking character says "what," and then repeats what the silent character supposedly said
> ...




It's iffy when it comes to silent-type characters, but I get where you're coming from.
I especially hate the spoonfeeding. 
"WHaaaaaaaaaaaat? You mean the thing we're supposed to be focusing on is super important and that the context of me and my dad discussing this is somehow something I should publicly announce to the audience just now because they're a brain-dead poop that can't think for themselves?!?!?!? WHAAAAAAAAAAT?" It's the reason why I can't even get into anime most of the time.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> It's iffy when it comes to silent-type characters, but I get where you're coming from.
> I especially hate the spoonfeeding.
> "WHaaaaaaaaaaaat? You mean the thing we're supposed to be focusing on is super important and that the context of me and my dad discussing this is somehow something I should publicly announce to the audience just now because they're a brain-dead poop that can't think for themselves?!?!?!? WHAAAAAAAAAAT?" It's the reason why I can't even get into anime most of the time.



You're watching the wrong anime.
Try Paranoia Agent or Serial Experiments Lain.
A lot of the old psychological ones tend to not be as...shonen (aka a genre literally for kids). 
Not that there's anything wrong with watching that, but that's most people's first dive into anime because it's what becomes popular in the west. >.>

Anyhow!


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> I didn't see a mention of "you're" or "you" in any of their post...let's not get uppity over a strong opinion.
> We're all mature fluffy-butts, are we not?



I'm just saying, I love me some Imperial Guard holding the line against a horde of heretics with nothing but a lasgun rifle, a bayonet, some outdated flak armor, and a canteen just as much as I love hearing about Band of Brothers and how Operation Market Garden fell on it's ass and the Battle of the Bulge. (FYI: The Imperial Guard as 'human' as you can get in the science-fantasy story of Warhammer 40,000. They're just humans with fancy laser guns told to stand there and die before the 'not' Soviet styled commissar blows their brains out behind them for 'treason'.) Order 227 was real.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> You're watching the wrong anime.
> Try Paranoia Agent or Serial Experiments Lain.
> A lot of the old psychological ones tend to not be as...shonen. >.>


It's hard for me to know which anime is good when they all advertise themselves as good!!! XD 
If it ever ends up on me canadie nootfloox here I'll consider it.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> It's hard for me to know which anime is good when they all advertise themselves as good!!! XD
> If it ever ends up on me canadie nootfloox here I'll consider it.



Lol I'm kidding about the comment on the "wrong" and "right" per say as technically if you like it, it's good. For you.
But clearly you're needing a more "adult" based genre, and well, that's what I'm recommending you watch. 
For example shows like One Piece, Dragon Ball Z, Pokemon, Etc are all technically Shonen- which is by definition made to fall between the age ranges of ten to fourteen. Specifically made to entertain ten to fourteen year old boys. Obviously can enjoy it too but, that's the industry's focus with that genre so. Long story short.
You need better pickings lol.


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I'm just saying, I love me some Imperial Guard holding the line against a horde of heretics with nothing but a lasgun rifle



As do I, comrade.
As do I.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 3, 2020)

Raever said:


> Lol I'm kidding about the comment on the "wrong" and "right" per say as technically if you like it, it's good. For you.
> But clearly you're needing a more "adult" based genre, and well, that's what I'm recommending you watch.
> For example shows like One Piece, Dragon Ball Z, Pokemon, Etc are all technically Shonen- which is by definition made to fall between the age ranges of ten to fourteen. Specifically made to entertain ten to fourteen year old boys. Obviously can enjoy it too but, that's the industry's focus with that genre so. Long story short.
> You need better pickings lol.



You're not wrong there. Canada just doesn't seem to get as much variety. Or when we do, it's ten years after the series has died off with everyone else.

"what's popular?" literally every anime that came out when I was a kid. X_X


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## Raever (Jul 3, 2020)

Another trope I dislike is when in RPG's the love interest(s) love you for no reason other than because, it's halfway through the game and they gotta meet a quota. >.>;
What happened to bonding?  To adventure?  To...just being bro's?

Speaking of bro's, I want bro's.
Stop making every person I wanna be friends with, wanna bone me.
It's weird - and when I turn them down they hate me.
Which makes me sad. T_T

Like, "Oh no it's fine - not like I've saved your life ten thousand times by now.
Guess me not wanting to lick you automatically makes me your worst nemesis..."

Not only is this unrealistic writing, but it shows like the worst of society in the characters.
Characters that you spent hours if not days forming connections with and going on quests for.
Super lame if you ask me.


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## Sir Thaikard (Jul 4, 2020)

Hey man, if you save my scrawny butt from enemy fire enough times I'm going to take it personally and get attached.

And then I'm going to want to get attached with you if ya know what I mean.


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## Raever (Jul 4, 2020)

Sir Thaikard said:


> Hey man, if you save my scrawny butt from enemy fire enough times I'm going to take it personally and get attached.
> 
> And then I'm going to want to get attached with you if ya know what I mean.



Feel like that would still be savior syndrome and not actual love- OHHHHHH that's why they suck. XD


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## Zerzehn (Jul 4, 2020)

Another cliché that I'm not too fond of is characters whose sole existence in the story is to be waifu bait and nothing more. Gotta get that incel bucks, after all.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 9, 2020)

Zerzehn said:


> Another cliché that I'm not too fond of is characters whose sole existence in the story is to be waifu bait and nothing more. Gotta get that incel bucks, after all.



Waifu?


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jul 9, 2020)

One I have used about only once or twice, but I don't really like is abusive parents. Yes, they exist, but this sort of carrying on into adulthood in many stories seems rather flat. Even Dio Brando has this, the abusive father. And while I do get this can be a stemming cause for being evil, at least give something to go with it. I had this for Sherly, her father is a poacher who wanted a son, but got a daughter. While this does fuel a lot of her anger, it was this battle where she saw her comrades die that really turned her into a cynical villain. Abusive parents should be a factor, but not an overall reason as to why the villain is the way they are.


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## ArtGirl205 (Jul 19, 2020)

I don't really like cliches either 
I avoid them in my role plays and stories when I do write


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## FlowerHead (Jul 22, 2020)

The love triangle o.o 
_A loves B but oh there is also C who makes things complicated and A can only choose one of them!_
As a polyamorous person this trope annoys me so much!! I just want to see love triangles evolve into nice and healthy polyam relationships for once ungh

(Of course polyamory isn't for everyone and that's fine but I'd like to see more writers acknowledge that it's at least an *option* you know)


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