# guns you wish you had. or that you plan on buying.



## X (Nov 19, 2008)

as the title says, if you are into firearms, then post a pic and specs of the gun you wish you had, or that you plan on purchasing sometime in the future.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
i'll start:


for me its this:






(specs taken directly from the site)

  Technical Specifications
 Caliber: .223 rem 5.56mm NATO 
Weight unloaded (no magazine): 51 oz 1450 g 
Length: 18.5" 470 mm 
Barrel length: 9.2" 234 mm 
Sight radius: 12.5" 318 mm 
Muzzle velocity (M193) 2600 fps 800 m/s 
Magazine capacity: 10 rounds, or M-16 compatible 
Safety Ambidextrous pushbolt 

price: $499.99 usd.
________________________________________________________________

GO!


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## KittenAdmin (Nov 19, 2008)

AA12 automatic shot-fucking-gun. OMG.


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## Takun (Nov 19, 2008)

Portal gun...that is all.


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## Tycho (Nov 19, 2008)

^That gun.


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## Xero108 (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't need a gun, nor would it be easy to buy one here in Montreal, so...

But if I wished to have one, it would be a sniper.


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## bozzles (Nov 19, 2008)

Guns are sceery. D:


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## pheonix (Nov 19, 2008)

bozzles said:


> Guns are sceery. D:



No just really fucking cheap and gay.


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## KittenAdmin (Nov 19, 2008)

pheonix said:


> No just really fucking cheap and gay.



REAL MEN USE KNIVES! YEAH! >:0


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## Tycho (Nov 19, 2008)

pheonix said:


> No just really fucking cheap and gay.



Real players use knives.

You bastard, KittenAdmin.  Ninja'd.


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## bozzles (Nov 19, 2008)

pheonix said:


> gay.


Did you just use the word "gay" to mean "stupid" on a _furry forum_?


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## KittenAdmin (Nov 19, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Real players use knives.
> 
> You bastard, KittenAdmin.  Ninja'd.



>:3


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## pheonix (Nov 19, 2008)

bozzles said:


> Did you just use the word "gay" to mean "stupid" on a _furry forum_?



Yes I did, you gotta problem with that?


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## bozzles (Nov 19, 2008)

pheonix said:


> Yes I did, you gotta problem with that?


...no...


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## lilEmber (Nov 19, 2008)

I have yet to see anybody here trained in the use of firearms enough to own a AA-12 or anything of 5.56 size. (also .223 isn't exactly 5.56...but it's close)

The one weapon I want is a Chey Tac M200.

Or perhaps just a Para LDA .45 ACP, if possible a Mk.23 (not possible...sadly).

But my statement still stands...I wouldn't trust anybody that couldn't field strip the weapon before my eyes properly, then assemble it properly, all while handling it...properly. 

Reason is because I've seen somebody kill, at least I think he died (not actually sure but always thought he did), themselves for being a moron with a firearm, and even looking like he knew what he was doing, he was holding the bloody thing wrong and simply was the victim of a faulty handgun.


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## pheonix (Nov 19, 2008)

bozzles said:


> ...no...



Okay then.^_^


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## bozzles (Nov 19, 2008)

pheonix said:


> Okay then.^_^




Oh, yeah... guns. Sceery. I don't have a need for one and would probably never actually buy one. Because they sceer me so much.

But guns in video games are awwwright.


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## lilEmber (Nov 19, 2008)

Guns in video games are wrong...most games have 1/4th the weapons actual accuracy, range, or power... or even less. Such as the medal of honor games being 1/8th and cod games being 1/5th.

Modern games has people thinking the AK is garbage, when in real life the thing is amazing.


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## KittenAdmin (Nov 19, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> Guns in video games are wrong...most games have 1/4th the weapons actual accuracy, range, or power... or even less. Such as the medal of honor games being 1/8th and cod games being 1/5th.
> 
> Modern games has people thinking the AK is garbage, when in real life the thing is amazing.



Bwahahaha...

I'm sorry I thought I heard you say the AK is amazing.

The only thing good about the AK is that it's cheap and you can chuck it in a pit of concrete, fish it out an hour later, and it will still fire.

Oh and the bullets will tear you a new one.

It has horrible accuracy compared to other more practical guns such as the M4 and M14...


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## NekoFox08 (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm just as naive when it comes to guns as I am when it comes to the female anatomy -_-'


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## Monak (Nov 19, 2008)

M-134 , nough said.


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## X (Nov 19, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> I have yet to see anybody here trained in the use of firearms enough to own a AA-12 or anything of 5.56 size. (also .223 isn't exactly 5.56...but it's close)



â† former boy scout here, spent most of my life starting from age 11 shooting, and practicing gun safety. true, i am not trained in a rifle of 5.56 caliber (or anything higher. [aside from shotguns that is]). but i know how to handle a rifle or handgun safely.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Nov 19, 2008)

M-1 Garand


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## bozzles (Nov 19, 2008)

Furries with guns...

I don't think I like that.


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## enchantedtoast (Nov 19, 2008)

A Hello Kitty rifle. Isn't it cute?


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## Tycho (Nov 19, 2008)

enchantedtoast said:


> A Hello Kitty rifle. Isn't it cute?



...

What the shit.


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## pheonix (Nov 19, 2008)

enchantedtoast said:


> A Hello Kitty rifle. Isn't it cute?



Pink is cool but that is just fucking retarded.


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## Tycho (Nov 20, 2008)

On that day, Frank's buddies at the range facepalmed in unison as their suspicions about Frank's "nature" were confirmed...


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## jagdwolf (Nov 20, 2008)

have a glock mdl 22  .40 cal short 
300 win mag

getting a shot gun, 12ga and If by good fortune we get this contract for the remodel, I am geting a .50 cal for my christmas/new years present.  

gun are not dangerous, just the idiots behind the trigger.


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## Marodi (Nov 20, 2008)

Guns are for the weak.


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## jagdwolf (Nov 20, 2008)

god made man.

Samuel Colt made man equal.

sorry, I respect your thoughts but I will never trust my life to the government or wait to be saved by a cop.


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## Kangamutt (Nov 20, 2008)

enchantedtoast said:


> A Hello Kitty rifle. Isn't it cute?



Is that at Azusa Canyon?


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## Roose Hurro (Nov 20, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> I have yet to see anybody here trained in the use of firearms enough to own a AA-12 or anything of 5.56 size. (also .223 isn't exactly 5.56...but it's close)
> 
> The one weapon I want is a Chey Tac M200.
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with the gun, just the idiot handling the gun.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Though they are no longer made, and may not be available in my state (unless someone brought some in before California closed its doors), I've been wanting one of these:

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Revolvers/Mateba_Model_6.htm

http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/?p=55

http://jwilsonsworld.com/mateba.htm


I'd like to pick up one of these, to go with my Winchester Model 61:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100046935&string=cid=206


This is a Winchester Model 61:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24189


These would make interesting conversation pieces:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=22901

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=22357

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=21581

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=20408

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=21868

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=14816

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=21871


I was just looking tonight at an Italian clone of this gun... I'd love to get hold of one, and get the conversion cylinder for it:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=21744

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=25636

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=16606


I *had* one of the Italian clones for this gun (blued), but I traded it for my Winchester Model 61:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=15059


Wouldn't mind finding one of these:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=17428

Or one of these:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=1259


I've also had a thing for dueling sets:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24005


Thought you might enjoy this one:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24878


Of course, last but not least, if I could afford it, I'd get something made here:

http://www.glbarnes.com/


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## lilEmber (Nov 20, 2008)

^ Wrong, I said the weapon had a fault, he was just holding it wrong as well.




KittenAdmin said:


> Bwahahaha...
> 
> I'm sorry I thought I heard you say the AK is amazing.
> 
> ...



Bwahahahaha...the fact you believed in a game...

Actually the AK has higher accuracy than a M4, and up to 200 meters you can nail every round into center mass of a human NO problem.

Why do the US sprout nonsense about it being garbage? Because they want you to think that.

Anybody that has actually fired a AK47 would know, it's superior to the AR series and CAR rifles in every way. In fact, its lower accuracy is a good thing with modern moron-troops because they don't aim anyway.

The only downside is the weight, and it's not that heavy, actually. Just the ar/car series are lighter. 

One thing though, the m16A2/A4 is more accurate. But not as much as you might think, where the m16a2/a4 is set for 500 meters every shot center mass, at what point are you engaging a enemy at sniper range with a assault rifle? Also, where as the AK47's 	7.62x39mm round can punch into a engine block, stopping the car, as well punch through most building materials and body armor, the 5.56x45mm NATO round can not touch a engine and can't punch through most materials, as well it's non-effective against modern Kevlar armors.

Shows some, not all information about comparing the assault rifles. Sadly the one who made this seems to have left out (on purpose) information about the AK's accuracy only because he didn't want US troops throwing their rifles down to replace it (which is against US law, they are not to exchange their own weapons for the enemies nor allowed to leave behind their weapons on the battlefield).

I myself would prefer a AK47 in urban environments if I was in the heat of battle over any of the ar/car series rifles. Although if I were at a distance or knew I was heading into a conflict I would prefer a C7a2 or C8a2, because they beat down both the m4a4 and m16a4 any day.

But I myself go for accuracy over power if I can, which means I wouldn't even take a assault rifle but instead a m200 or AS50.

If I had to take a assault rifle it would be the Barrett M468, AKA the REC7.


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## south syde dobe (Nov 20, 2008)

Give me a mothafucking grenade launcher and I'd be one happy fox


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 20, 2008)

Just a little handgun is enough for me but only if I lived in any major city, especially if I were dumb enough to wanna live in Nashville, any of California, or New York City.


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## Maio Maio Tigerman (Nov 20, 2008)

gun laws are to strict here and i would have no use for a gun, but i wouldnt mind getting a kar98 or similar (deactivated because i dont need to shoot anything) or if i was really adventrous and they wernt illegal one of these.


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## Telnac (Nov 20, 2008)

Takumi_L said:


> Portal gun...that is all.


You win.


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## Lost (Nov 20, 2008)

Maio Maio Tigerman said:


>



Fuck yeah P-90 FTW!!! That's on my personal wish list.  
For a handgun I wouldn't mind picking up a SIG P226
Then a SG 551 for a nice rifle.

I have to try and convince a friend of my to let me fire his Barrett M107 some time


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## lilEmber (Nov 20, 2008)

Barrett M107 is only being issued in the US and is not available for civilian use without a licence. You might mean a m82, which still would be a ass to get your hands on one and ammunition without the license.

The FN-P90 is a wonderful weapon, no problems with it at all actually.
The SIG552 has tumbling rounds as a issue, meaning it looses accuracy, fast. But it has high stopping power compared to other 5.56 chambered rifles due to this.

The P226 is a older handgun but effective nonetheless, I would prefer something like the PARA LTD .45 15+1


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## LizardKing (Nov 20, 2008)

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/641437/

<3


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## Kajet (Nov 20, 2008)

enchantedtoast said:


> A Hello Kitty rifle. Isn't it cute?



If I'm not completely mistaken I believe I read that the guy modified that rifle to be legal by removing features that are supposedly "evil" like a shroud, pistol grip, and the color black.

Again, that's if I remember things correctly.


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## Teco (Nov 20, 2008)

Desert Eagle would be nice.
... it would never happen, but I'd die for a .50 cal sniper.
Or a working Kar98.. or any of the german WW2 guns actually. MG42! *leaps into cover*


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## CaptainCool (Nov 20, 2008)

minigun, anyone?




up to 6000 bullets per minute^^ might be enough i guess.


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## Aden (Nov 20, 2008)

Probably some Sig Sauer model. I'd like to get my license no later than next summer.


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## Irreverent (Nov 20, 2008)

bozzles said:


> Furries with guns...
> 
> I don't think I like that.



Then Furry targetshooters are going to piss you right off..... :twisted:

There's so much miss-information in this thread, I really don't know where to begin.



Kajet said:


> If I'm not completely mistaken I believe I read that the guy modified that rifle to be legal by removing features that are supposedly "evil" like a shroud, pistol grip, and the color black.
> 
> Again, that's if I remember things correctly.



You miss remember.  The AR15 platform (regardless of its external bits; other than a class III auto sear) is completely legal in the US and Canada.  Although for reasons known only to CND liberals, its been deemed restricted here.  No big deal. Class III auto sears are legal in the US, if you pay the $200 BAFT tax stamp.  Obama has promised to re-iniate the AWB, so were' going to go through that "pre/post ban" shit all over again.  Explains why they are flying off the shelves here and in the US.

The "hello kitty" and "dewalt" AR craze started on www.ar15.com; by a certain Canadian moderator (of the US site) that was trying to annoy one of his fellow poodle shooters.  No, it wasn't me.....  But I do have this engraved on the mag well of one of my Canadian made Dlask AR15's:









NewfDraggie said:


> Actually the AK has higher accuracy than a M4, and up to 200 meters you can nail every round into center mass of a human NO problem.



Bullshit!  The AR15 is capable of amazing accuracy out to 1,000m with 68-72grain bullets.  The 7.62x39 is only "flock of barns" accuracy beyond 400m due to the ballistic co-efficient of the bullet.  Its a limitation of the cartridge, not the rifle.  

Really, don't take my word for it.  Come out to a DCRA, ORA or Newfoundland Provincial Rifle Association  match and see how its done. 



> the 5.56x45mm NATO round can not touch a engine and can't punch through most materials, as well it's non-effective against modern Kevlar armors.



While it wont go through an engine block, the m855 ball round (aka "green tip" ) with mild steel penetrator is completely effective against lightly armored things out to 400m.



NewfDraggie said:


> The FN-P90 is a wonderful weapon, no problems with it at all actually.



Other than a predilection for firing out of battery, like is cousin, the FN 5.7.  This was a problem for the two (and only) PE90's imported into Canada by Sxyglock.  Fixed in later production runs.



> The SIG552 has tumbling rounds as a issue, meaning it looses accuracy, fast. But it has high stopping power compared to other 5.56 chambered rifles due to this.



facepalm.jpg

Come play in my world: www.canadiangunnutz.com



> The P226 is a older handgun but effective nonetheless, I would prefer something like the PARA LTD .45 15+1



Meh.  Thanos ripped off Caspian's frame and mag design, then made it double action only.  Inventive, maybe, but not innovative.  Mag restrictions in Canada make double-stack .45's moot.  A Para SSP with 10-rd mec-gar mags is lighter, thinner and only 4 short of a 14-15.

Other than the PE90 , mini and the "portal gun" I've got a few of the toys in this thread.  Being rifle director at a club also means I get to shoot them....Current want list, a second TR in 6.5x284





The Nightforce 5.5-22x56 scope alone runs to about $3,500.00CDN.  I'm on a wait list.

whoa!  what forum am I on again..... * checks avatar * whew...... :razz:


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## Midi Bear (Nov 20, 2008)

Takumi_L said:


> Portal gun...that is all.


This.


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## Bambi (Nov 20, 2008)

pheonix said:


> Yes I did, you gotta problem with that?


I sort of do. But then again, not really.

Here's one thing I'd love to try out:






Here's another:

MG3 (Pictures would be badass, but I cancelled it due to the image size.)

And then this:






Quick! Whose that Pokemon? (Both of those, without checking the image names?)


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## Tycho (Nov 20, 2008)

2nd one's a Nikonov AN94.(112? not entirely sure)

No idea what the first one is.


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## LycanArisun (Nov 20, 2008)

'Nuff said


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## Bambi (Nov 20, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> 2nd one's a Nikonov AN94.(112? not entirely sure)
> 
> No idea what the first one is.


 
AEK971 

Very close!


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## mrredfox (Nov 20, 2008)

this |
      V


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## Kajet (Nov 20, 2008)

LycanArisun said:


> 'Nuff said



USP? ... Fucking metal gear... I shouldn't know that...


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## lilEmber (Nov 20, 2008)

Kajet said:


> USP? ... Fucking metal gear... I shouldn't know that...



That's not a USP, that's a MK.23 .45 ACP.

AKA the Mk.23 SOCOM.

In my opinion, the best handgun in the world. Only hard to get your hands on one.


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## Irreverent (Nov 20, 2008)

Kajet said:


> USP? ... Fucking metal gear... I shouldn't know that...



Nope.  MK23 with a threaded barrel, and fake can to make it look like a USP tactical.  The sites and hammer bob are the give away.  Airsoft.

I'd take a P220 in .45 or a P210 (in .45...they were made) over an HK any day. Easier to find, and the Sig p210 has the best production trigger ever......


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## lilEmber (Nov 20, 2008)

Irreverent said:


> Nope.  MK23 with a threaded barrel, and fake can to make it look like a USP tactical.  The sites and hammer bob are the give away.  Airsoft.
> 
> I'd take a P220 in .45 or a P210 (in .45...they were made) over an HK any day. Easier to find, and the Sig p210 has the best production trigger ever......



Actually that's a 3d model. Not a actual picture, the watermark is a rendering site.

:\ it is a model of a mk.23.

Also it's called a FN-57, not a FN 5.7.

A para ltd or mk.23 are the two most powerful .45 handguns, the mk.23 beign the most accurate .45 handgun made as well being 12+1, rails, threaded suppressor, and very light make it the number one special operations pistol in the world. It's just expensive and hard to get your hands on one without connections.


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## Kajet (Nov 20, 2008)

Ahh, see I'm a game nerd not a gun freak... and sometimes those paths cross, usually in unfortunate ways.

As such I don't really have a super boner for a specific gun, though I'd like a top break revolver, or a break-action shotgun, the lack of speed in reloading is made up for the manliness of not using a magazine.


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## FoxxLegend (Nov 20, 2008)

I want a Battle Rifle from the Halo series. The 108 round 3 shot burst fire semi-automatic sub-machine rifle. (Whew =3)


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## Not A Fox (Nov 20, 2008)

*Ruger Mk.II* or *III*:
This line of firearm is painfully difficult to take down, but it's beautiful. And beyond it's aesthetics lies first rate accuracy. Indeed, the US Govt used the Mk.II for basic target practice for some time. 22 Long Rifle is cheap & plentiful and it is deadly enough IF that application need be put into question. There's even bullets of this caliber that increase it's already questionable potency without getting into hollow-point territory.


*AMT Hardballer*:
Does a long slide contribute to the accuracy of the 1911? No. But then again, I wouldn't remember any criticism of it being less accurate. I've heard very, very bad reviews of this gun which leave me inclined to just learn machining and build my own w/ superior materials and sticking more closely to the original design. But there are examples that've proven to be of quality, as I've heard. Modifications I'd make are few. At most, a laser sight concealed in the guide-rod so as to not foul the aesthetics. Brazillian rosewood grips if possible. Perhaps engraving.


*Beretta 93R*:
These are well made & thought out. Between this & Glock's counterpoint, the 18, I find this superior. First off, it's not a plastic block. Second, it's Beretta. Third, folding foregrip and a 3 round burst option allowing you to hit everything the 18 will miss (Which you'd need Unless your this guy, which I doubt you are). Not much to improve upon save for perhaps a more aesthetically pleasing choice of wood for the grips.


*Wheatherby Vangaurd Rifle*:
These are economically viable rifles that came from the factory with their original testing targets. Along with that, they came in a multitude of calibers, the one I'm most interested in being .300 Weatherby Magnum. Slap an incredible scope on one and you'll be capable of dropping any game in North America (And probably most everything in Africa).


*ASM-DT*:
Spetsnaz had a dilemma with the original APS assault rifle: It had no functionality above water. No rifling in the barrel cuppled with the bolts made it terribly inaccurate. And while the SSP-1 pistol still worked for countering anti-frogmen trained Dolphins (Yes, this happened), it had miserable range. This was the solution. Accepted in 2000, the rifle is perfectly capable of firing both underwater and on the ground. This was the solution: Having the bottom to where it accepts the typical AK-74 magazine and then flips out to accomodate the original APS magazine for underwater usage. Do I really need to shoot something up underwater someday? No. But this is still a damned cool assault rifle, and damned if it wouldn't look cool on me.


*AKS-74UB*:
Typical Krinkov, but with the option of slapping a PBS-5 Sound suppressor at the end, which goes along nicely with a BS-1 silent Grenade launcher and a PK-A red dot sight. Yes, yes I know there is no way in hell I could be allowed to own a set up like this. Something like this just breaks all kinds of rules. But I can still get away with dreaming about it, like I can with the ASM-DT. I can still say "I'd get this if it were legal". Speaking of which:


*M-79* Grenade Launcher:
Enough said.


*Colt SAA*
Probably of moderate to semi-long barrel length. Most surely of vintage construction. Even blackpowder would do, considering that their robust enough in construction to handle modern powder based cartridges. Most certainly, a .45 will announce your disapproval of someone's choice of action. A .45 Long Colt will just announce it that much louder (And harder). And besides, Classic old western appeal and an American Icon. The original plastic grips would suffice, but Rosewood or Cherry would be nice. A proper holster / Belt a neccessity


*Astra 903* or *904*
I don't believe Mauser made any variations of their C.96 with a fully automatic feature, but Astra did. The 900 series began production during the Spanish Civil War and saw some sales to Germany and to China as well. They're fast. The clip empties about as soon as you're done squeezing the trigger. That, coupled with the gun's design features (Small, lightweight bolt) made it near impossible to put much lead on anything at range. But if you're only worried about one man, and you're in tight quarters: 20 7.62 Bullets would drop anything looking to give you grief. 


*Shansei Arsenal Broomhandle*:
This is a far different creature from the Astras & Mausers. It's magazine is internal and probably houses fewer bullets than most others, but it is of notably larger construction. It has to be: These were chambered for .45. They were of good construction. Well built. The only problem was is that I've been lead to believe that the bullets they fired _weren't_ like the regular .45 ACP bullets. Some sort of trick about the rim of the cartridge that would necessitate modification of the pistol to allow firing of regular bullets (Which has been done).


*Stechkin APS*
Russia has never really goof'd too terribly on any of it's designs. Somehow, they even managed to make a quality noisemaker in the middle of the siege at Leningrad (The PPSh43). This is probably one of the least successful designs if only for the fact that RPGists and tank crews were expected to fire this accurately at range. Even then, the Spetsnaz managed to make good use of it in the 70's by slapping a Silencer and wire-stock on it. I, However, am content with just the original design. Even outside of Spetsnaz, security & counter terrorist forces found it useful in the 1990's (and still do). 


*Machine Pistole 41*:
Germany had several variants of it's MP.38, but this was the only one of the bunch that differentiated itself. A full wooden stock was put in place of the original's pistol grip & folding stock. Not that it was an improvement, no. It lost all the original's ease of use / carry in cramped conditions. In different conditions, though: The wooden stock works just fine, and has perhaps superior ergonomics. 

*Machine Gewehr 34 "Tanker"*:
There were several variations of the MG.34. Among them being the MG.34T model. This variant was to be mounted on tanks with the option of slapping a bi-pod on the end for emergency. The prominent feature of these guns was the Barrel sleeve: Having far fewer perforations in it's construction and being somewhat thicker. The reason for this was the amount of oncoming fire that would directed at the tank and a need to armor the gun itself to allow for more durability in such an application. They're rather beautiful examples of the 34, for me. All I'd need for one is a sling and a double drum saddle.






I think this pretty much covers all the cool guns, save the *Winchester Model 97* Pump Shotgun, which I do well with being trimmed down just enough to still slap a heat shield & bayonet on and still carry 5 rounds in the magazine.


And a *Protecta "Street Sweeper"* is fine, too.


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## Not A Fox (Nov 20, 2008)

Oh, yeah, I forgot:

*Sten Mk.II* SMG:
The US managed to make a single-shot .45 caliber half pistol that miraculously took less time to build than it takes to load it. And the brits? They managed to make a fully automatic sub-machine gun for far less and out of car exhausts, no less. And the added insult to injury? It outperformed every allied (And axis) SMG in reliability. No Joke, We yanks did an evaluation between the M1928, the The M1 Thompson, The Reiseling, and others. All of them brand new, never used, straight out of the box. We ask the brits for an example of their Sten and they hand us some worn out chunk of shit that looked like it was about to fall apart and it _worked_. It did more than just worked, it _outperformed everything_ else in every way possible. Getting one of these with a T-Stock + Bayonet would just be grand. Only other thing needed would be an aftermarket barrel that could actually hit something at 100 yards.


*M3A1 "Grease Gun"*:
This is the American Sten, only it looks like a Grease Gun (Hence the nickname "Grease Gun") and comes in .45 caliber.


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## X (Nov 20, 2008)

also: a fully decked out fns2000:





or the jackal:






13.5mm hangun, yay for overkill!


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## Enigmaticat (Nov 21, 2008)

^ This, simple, elegant, classic.  Powerful


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## KazukiFerret (Nov 21, 2008)

OMFG!!!!

The Luger P-08 in 9x19mm, I'd give my left nut for

the M1-Garand in .30/'06 is what'd give up the ablityity to reproduce for if it was included with the Luger...


----------



## Roose Hurro (Nov 21, 2008)

Woops, forgot the rifles:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=25347

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=23056

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24772

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=25167

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=6705

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=23512

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=20511

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=25002

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=21777

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=6735

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=23264

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24274

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=11813

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=23191

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=21673

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=22078

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=22313

http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/spencer.htm

http://www.romanorifle.com/html/spencer.html

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/RepeatingRifles/Spencer.htm#

http://www.aotc.net/Spencer.htm


Owned one of these quite a number of years ago (kept kicking hot brass down the back of my shirt, so I sold it):

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=23029


----------



## makmakmob (Nov 21, 2008)

Well, being England, anything I get here would be utterly overkill. I mean, people burgle houses with knives and baseball bats here, but given the option I would get an AS "Val" assault rifle. No logical reason, I just think a properly silenced assault rifle is cool as fuck. Probably because I have no experience of guns whatsoever, though, to be honest.


----------



## Azure (Nov 21, 2008)

makmakmob said:


> Well, being England, anything I get here would be utterly overkill. I mean, *people burgle houses with knives and baseball bats here*, but given the option I would get an AS "Val" assault rifle. No logical reason, I just think a properly silenced assault rifle is cool as fuck. Probably because I have no experience of guns whatsoever, though, to be honest.


Wow.  I'd love somebody to try that shit here.  He'd get a chest full of lead, and possibly be hit by a few devotional bibles.


----------



## Tycho (Nov 21, 2008)

LemurBoi said:


> Wow.  I'd love somebody to try that shit here.  He'd get a chest full of lead, and possibly be hit by a few devotional bibles.



LOL.  Tell him to rob a house in Texas.  Might as well tell him to jam his knife into his right eye socket and throw himself in front of a bus.


----------



## Azure (Nov 21, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> LOL.  Tell him to rob a house in Texas.  Might as well tell him to jam his knife into his right eye socket and throw himself in front of a bus.


At least his family would get royalties from Worlds Dumbest Suicides. He could send his kids to community college and his wife could buy some more smack and inject it into her twat.


----------



## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> Also it's called a FN-57, not a FN 5.7.



Yeah, was typing fast.  They still have a propensity to fire out of battery with catastrophic results for the gun and shooter.



> A para ltd or mk.23 are the two most powerful .45 handguns, the mk.23 beign the most accurate .45 handgun made as well being 12+1, rails, threaded suppressor, and very light make it the number one special operations pistol in the world. It's just expensive and hard to get your hands on one without connections.



Since the "power" is determined by the cartridge and not the gun, do you mean "capacity?" 

The most accurate centrefire pistol is the Sig P210, bar none.  I'll reserve judgement on the Mk23 until its got a few more gold medals under its belt.

BTW, Mark at www.questar.ca can get you one, if HK will release it to the civilian market.



NAFFY said:


> [*Shansei Arsenal Broomhandle*:
> This is a far different creature from the Astras & Mausers. It's magazine is internal and probably houses fewer bullets than most others, but it is of notably larger construction. It has to be: These were chambered for .45. They were of good construction. Well built. The only problem was is that I've been lead to believe that the bullets they fired _weren't_ like the regular .45 ACP bullets. Some sort of trick about the rim of the cartridge that would necessitate modification of the pistol to allow firing of regular bullets (Which has been done).



Very nice.  And yes, they were chambered in .45ACP, not .45AutoRim (for the SW 1917 pistol).


----------



## lilEmber (Nov 21, 2008)

Irreverent said:
			
		

> Yeah, was typing fast.  They still have a propensity to fire out of battery with catastrophic results for the gun and shooter.


I'm going to assume you know what you're talking about and meant "Detonation out of battery" and in that case no, the 57 doesn't have that issue.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> Since the "power" is determined by the cartridge and not the gun, do you mean "capacity?"


Power is determined not by the round, I have no idea where you managed to get that one but a 5.56 chambered sr-16 will punch through more things than a 5.56 chambered m16.

Why?

Muzzle velocity my good man. It's not about the round, it's about the barrel length and firing mechanism as well. The mk.23 is the most accurate pistol I know of as well its muzzle velocity is higher than other .45 APC's, barrel length is longer, AND it's only 12+1 where the PARA ltd is 15+1.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> The most accurate centrefire pistol is the Sig P210, bar none.  I'll reserve judgement on the Mk23 until its got a few more gold medals under its belt.


Medals mean nothing, this weapons is for special operations only. I have yet to meet anybody that was able to buy one of these off the shelf or online without being in the military and even then I know none that did so.
Just because people modify a pistol and then take it to a range and get a medal does not mean it's the most accurate pistol, the mk.23 will blow *any* other handgun out of the water in terms of accuracy, and it will beat down any other .45 in terms of range and force applied to target at any comparable ranges for a handgun.
And that's stock, it also has a few mods like longer slide and etc that make it even more accurate.

Also the p210 is a different chamber being either the 	9x19mm Parabellum or the 7.65x22mm Parabellum. It's like you're comparing a 5.56 chambered m16a2 against a ak47 chambered with the 7.62. Well yea, one is going to be able to punch through a engine block and stop a car, as well other materials and metals. The other sacrifices all stopping power and force for range, accuracy, and more rounds...but actually the mk.23 would be like the Dragnov SVD chambered for 7.62, it has a longer barrel and thus will beat down accuracy of the 5.56 no problem, range, and has a decent cartage of 12+1. to top it all off it you hit somebody with a 9mm it's unlikely they're going to be stopped or killed; I've seen videos of about 6+ cops shooting a guy from all sides with 9mm rounds and he still managed to kill a cop after the fire started (and they weren't missing) he charged the nearest cop and slit his throat, took about 2-3 seconds. Then he succumbed to the fire and died. If they tossed in a .45 in that situation and that bastard wouldn't of moved.

Edit: Though honestly I haven't fired a mk.23 I've just seen spec sheets on it and clips of this thing being fired, it's just so damn accurate for a pistol it blows my mind.
Also, there might be a pistol out there more accurate but more than likely it's not off the shelf or stock....


----------



## X (Nov 21, 2008)

half-witted fur said:


> or the jackal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and just so everyone knows, i would give half my soul for that gun *drools*


----------



## Not A Fox (Nov 21, 2008)

Roose Hurro said:


> Woops, forgot the rifles:
> 
> http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=25167
> 
> http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=20511




You have good taste.


I forgot something else too:


----------



## X (Nov 21, 2008)

NAFFY said:


> You have good taste.
> 
> 
> I forgot something else too:



would that happen to be a .50cal good sir? with an 8 inch barrel?


----------



## Not A Fox (Nov 21, 2008)

half-witted fur said:


> would that happen to be a .50cal good sir? with an 8 inch barrel?



Yes it is. Which, for me, is overkill.

I just want the 8-inch barrel slapped on a .44 magnum. 

.44 is still nothing to sneeze at, and yet not as likely to leave imprints on your forehead from the front sight.

And not that a desert eagle would be my first choice, either. It's still way on down the list compared to the broomhandles, longslide 1911 & SAA


----------



## Tycho (Nov 21, 2008)

NAFFY said:


>



This is the "compensating for something" handgun...


----------



## lilEmber (Nov 21, 2008)

Naw a s&W 500, a 566/700 nitro express, or .95 cal McBros is for compensating something.


----------



## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> I'm going to assume you know what you're talking about and meant "Detonation out of battery" and in that case no, the 57 doesn't have that issue.



No, the generally accepted term is  "firing out of battery", with the breach not properly locked.  Detonation is something that black-powder does.  Modern smokeless powder deflagrates (except under very, very rare circumstances).  Hundreds of threads on FN 57 kaboom issue, one of the more common being this one http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4489899



> Power is determined not by the round, I have no idea where you managed to get that one but a 5.56 chambered sr-16 will punch through more things than a 5.56 chambered m16.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Muzzle velocity my good man. It's not about the round, it's about the barrel length and firing mechanism as well.



The "power" of a round is the amount of stored chemical potential energy within the round.  The barrel length can't change that, it can only effect how the powder is consumed.  So the length of the barrel does have an impact on the amount of chemical potential energy that can be released over time, but only up to a certain point in the pressure curve, after which there are diminishing returns.  Generally, a 20" barrel may allow more powder to burn than a 16", but a 26" barrel may or may not have a substantive increase in MV.  But generalizing, in an area where specifics of bullet weight, powder type, charge weight, primer type, case volume, compression, throat and barrel length all have a role to play is.....foolish.  Too many variables; each with an impact on accuracy.  And that's before you enter the specifics of any particular gun into the accuracy equation.

But I confess you've confused me.....a Knights Armament Corporation SR-16 has exactly the same barrel length and dimensions as a Colt/Diemeco M16A4.  Why do you think the KAC SR16 will outperform the M4?



> The mk.23 is the most accurate pistol I know of as well its muzzle velocity is higher than other .45 APC's, barrel length is longer,



By what, 25-50 fps?  Big deal.  Run the ballistics tables, the change in range and energy on target is negligible.  Accuracy is not determined by MV/TV, ME/TE alone.



> the mk.23 will blow *any* other handgun out of the water in terms of accuracy, and it will beat down any other .45 in terms of range and force applied to target at any comparable ranges for a handgun.
> And that's stock, it also has a few mods like longer slide and etc that make it even more accurate.



Since you keep harping on it, what's the MK23's standard for accuracy, in MOA?  BTW, longer slide/barrels don't make the gun more accurate, the longer site plane makes the shooter more accurate.   Its a subtle, but very important, difference.   Put a 4" barreled gun and a 4.5" barreled gun (or 6" or 7") in a Ransom machine rest and there will be no difference.



> Also the p210 is a different chamber being either the 	9x19mm Parabellum or the 7.65x22mm Parabellum.



Yep, it was available in .45apc too, and as a Sig custom shop offering too.  Keep googling.  Its the Sig's level of machining and single action trigger that make it the winner hands down.  Sig dropped production because that level of accuracy is not required in a service pistol, and was too expensive to machine in a target pistol.



> but actually the mk.23 would be like the Dragnov SVD chambered for 7.62, it has a longer barrel and thus will beat down accuracy of the 5.56 no problem, range, and has a decent cartage of 12+1.



Quoted for reference. :razz:



> Edit: Though honestly I haven't fired a mk.23 I've just seen spec sheets on it and clips of this thing being fired, it's just so damn accurate for a pistol it blows my mind.



Just got off the phone with a colleague (was ordering ammo, asked).  The Mrk23 is imported by R.Nicholes and stocked by Wolverine and TSE in Canada.  About $1,850 before the dollar crashed again.  It qualifies for IPSC open-division under IPSC Canada rules; even when stock, it doesn't meet the IPSC stock template, hence the open division.  A quick search of CGN shows about 2-3 dozen Canadian civilian owners.



> Also, there might be a pistol out there more accurate but more than likely it's not off the shelf or stock....



That my friend, it what started people target shooting in the first place.....

Seriously, create an account over at CGN and come play in my world.  We need every target shooter we can get if the sport is going to survive.


----------



## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> Naw a s&W 500, a 566/700 nitro express, or .95 cal McBros is for compensating something.



.577 T-Rex. :twisted:


----------



## FoxxLegend (Nov 21, 2008)

It's not a gun per say but if they made the energy swords from the Halo series I'd want one of them for sure!!!


----------



## Not A Fox (Nov 21, 2008)

Found a decent pic of the ASM-DT:








There you go.


----------



## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

NAFFY said:


> Found a decent pic of the ASM-DT:
> 
> There you go.



Only a Vogon would find that gun beautiful......


----------



## lilEmber (Nov 21, 2008)

Irreverent said:
			
		

> No, the generally accepted term is  "firing out of battery", with the breach not properly locked.  Detonation is something that black-powder does.  Modern smokeless powder deflagrates (except under very, very rare circumstances).  Hundreds of threads on FN 57 kaboom issue, one of the more common being this one http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4489899


I will just leave my military training at the door and use a civilian term then.
Seeing we use Detonation for when the round has fired before entering chamber such as in the mag just before going into chamber, not black powder; the propellant doesn't change the term.

Detonating out of battery and Firing out of battery are the same thing from what you're saying, only one means black powder? Now, detonation is when the round is about to enter chamber from mag and firing is the pin actually striking the round from fault in the weapon. That's why I was confused as to why the FN-57 would have this issue as you say, when I have never read/heard such things about it doing so.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> The "power" of a round is the amount of stored chemical potential energy within the round.  The barrel length can't change that, it can only effect how the powder is consumed.  So the length of the barrel does have an impact on the amount of chemical potential energy that can be released over time, but only up to a certain point in the pressure curve, after which there are diminishing returns.  Generally, a 20" barrel may allow more powder to burn than a 16", but a 26" barrel may or may not have a substantive increase in MV.  But generalizing, in an area where specifics of bullet weight, powder type, charge weight, primer type, case volume, compression, throat and barrel length all have a role to play is.....foolish.  Too many variables; each with an impact on accuracy.  And that's before you enter the specifics of any particular gun into the accuracy equation.



Yes you're right, all those things will determine the accuracy and range of the weapon, though barrel length will give a significant more amount of energy or power behind the round as well it will make the round have a better spin on it, more force, and keep it from tumbling or the like, it's accuracy is directly effected and if it's too long its power will be too low, if it's too hsort the rounds will go all over the place (a tactic smg's use)

Now power (as I was saying the mk.23 has more of) is simply meaning the power or energy behind the round, as in the force applied to the round initially. Well if you look at the rounds 9mm and .45 cal you can see one is longer slightly and wider, allowing more powder and thus more energy behind the round. The thing is, the round is also heavier so the extra energy balances it with the 9mm more so; the .45 round has still a higher muzzle velocity as well more kinetic energy in the round. It means it will be less affected by wind and when hitting a target will deliver more force to the target as well.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> But I confess you've confused me.....a Knights Armament Corporation SR-16 has exactly the same barrel length and dimensions as a Colt/Diemeco M16A4.  Why do you think the KAC SR16 will outperform the M4?


Their not the same length, nor the same build. The rifling and the way the barrel is made will affect it too, I thought for a gun nut you'd understand at least basic mechanics of hour a rifle works. The round means a lot yes, not that much. 



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> By what, 25-50 fps?  Big deal.  Run the ballistics tables, the change in range and energy on target is negligible.  Accuracy is not determined by MV/TV, ME/TE alone.


25-50 FPS is a fuck-ton in a handgun and yea it's determined by muzzle velocity as well bullet size. The less it's affected by wind with its heavier weight while still having the power to go the same distance against gravity means it's more accurate.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> Since you keep harping on it, what's the MK23's standard for accuracy, in MOA?  BTW, longer slide/barrels don't make the gun more accurate, the longer site plane makes the shooter more accurate.   Its a subtle, but very important, difference.   Put a 4" barreled gun and a 4.5" barreled gun (or 6" or 7") in a Ransom machine rest and there will be no difference.


That's why a colt 1911 and a m1 Thompson (both use the exact same round) what one is more accurate?
A .50 mg compared to a .50 sniper...barrel length -really- affects the accuracy of a rifle and it's not because the sights are more spaced.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> Seriously, create an account over at CGN and come play in my world.  We need every target shooter we can get if the sport is going to survive.


I'd rather not have to go in and look like a asshole correcting everything with all the wrong information from civilians. :\
Edit: oops, I haven't really look at the site so I didn't mean that there are errors or mistakes, I will take a look but I doubt it will interest me....


To bring another rifle into the picture the .50-caliber McMillan Brothers Tac-50 rifle still holds the record for the longest kill recorded. Fired by Canadian Rob Furlong! Take that Americans. xD


----------



## Mercy (Nov 21, 2008)

Sort of planning on buying a gun.  Only planning on using it for target shooting and home protection (if need be), but mainly the first.  Right now I'm looking at either a .17HMR rifle or a 9mm/.40 pistol.  Anyone have some suggestions?

http://www.savagearms.com/93r17bvss.htm is about all I've found that appeals to me in the .17HMR, but it's a little pricey...


----------



## Runefox (Nov 21, 2008)

> They still have a propensity to fire out of battery with catastrophic results for the gun and shooter.


?

... ?

The only recorded occasion that an FN FiveseveN has ever fired "out of battery" was due to a double charged reload of custom bullets. The guy was using once and twice-used brass casings, used multiple grains of ammunition, and generally didn't observe his operations manual, and then proceeded to outright lie about it. He later retracted his statements and concluded, along with FN, that the blowup happened thanks to a double-charged reload.

Here is the original posting, complete with shots of the carnage for both the gun and flesh. If you look closely, the front of the brass casing is blown away and ripped to shreds, which shouldn't have happened if it simply fired out of battery. The round itself exploded. You should also note that he wasn't supervised during the firing nor the reload of the ammunition (which is forbidden by the operations manual for this very reason), and didn't perform a proper check of his injuries. I'd imagine that if he wasn't concerned enough to check anything but his hands for wounds after his pistol _exploded_, he wasn't concerned enough to be absolutely certain that the rounds were properly charged to begin with (though he swears they were, like you would if you didn't want to look like it was your fault).

According to FN technical documents, the FiveseveN is incapable of firing out of battery due to the way in which the firing pin locks while chambering a bullet. The following is an explanation of that:



> The Five-seveN will not fire out of battery as claimed and falsley demonstrated on this post.
> 
> The Five-seveN slide will move rearward .1540-.1545" before it is considered out of battery. This measurement can be taken by pushing back directly on the barrel. After that point the barrel lug is locked and the slide will continue to move rearward. Now you are considered out of battery.
> 
> ...



Aside from this case, the FiveseveN has overall legendary reliability.


----------



## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> I will just leave my military training at the door and use a civilian term then.
> Seeing we use Detonation for when the round has fired before entering chamber such as in the mag just before going into chamber, not black powder; the propellant doesn't change the term.



I tend to use terms the firearms industry uses, SAAMI is the standard, regardless of civilian or military.  Context is everything, thanks for clearing that up. 



> Detonating out of battery and Firing out of battery are the same thing from what you're saying



Yes, it would appear so.  Detonation as it applies to blackpowder describes the shape of its pressure curve, and is not relevant to this discussion.  I was confused by your "military" term.



> Their not the same length, nor the same build. The rifling and the way the barrel is made will affect it too, I thought for a gun nut you'd understand at least basic mechanics of hour a rifle works. The round means a lot yes, not that much.



We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've seen and shot 22 inch bolt guns out to 1,000yards.  The round means everything.  Go watch a PRA F/TR-class precision shoot, don't take my word for it, question authority!  The trick of course, is to keep the bullet supersonic all the way to the target.  MOA bullets at 600 yards wont hit a barn at 1,000 yards if they go subsonic at 800 yards due to upset when the shock wave collapses.



> 25-50 FPS is a fuck-ton in a handgun and yea it's determined by muzzle velocity as well bullet size. The less it's affected by wind with its heavier weight while still having the power to go the same distance against gravity means it's more accurate.



If you're using a handgun at ranges at which windage is an issue, its time to fight your way back to your rifle or call in close air support.



> A .50 mg compared to a .50 sniper...barrel length -really- affects the accuracy of a rifle and it's not because the sights are more spaced.



Nope.  Snipers tend to use optics, so iron site plane length is moot.  The real improvement between a .50bmg M2 and a Barret is the action type.  Bolt guns are always more accurate than self-loaders.  The less violent caming of the manual bolt ensures better and more consistent placement of the bullet in the throat of the chamber.  Chamber specs tend to be tighter too on bolt guns, shorter throat leads etc.



> I'd rather not have to go in and look like a asshole correcting everything with all the wrong information from civilians. :\
> Edit: oops, I haven't really look at the site so I didn't mean that there are errors or mistakes, I will take a look but I doubt it will interest me....



Good call.  They'll educate you pretty quick.  You'll find CGN made up of 30% hunters, 30% target shooters and 30% military.  Quite a few collectors and historians too.  A few with published and peer reviewed works.  Its the definitive standard for shooting in Canada.



> To bring another rifle into the picture the .50-caliber McMillan Brothers Tac-50 rifle still holds the record for the longest kill recorded. Fired by Canadian Rob Furlong! Take that Americans. xD



I'll not "out" them, but you'll find a certain bronze star winner or two on CGN. A fair number of ex-CF that are now Blackwater/Haliburton contractors too.  One of them wrote the spec for the new .338 sniper rifles being trialled by the CF.  You'll also find Prairie Gun Works and Alberta Tactical Rifle, the makers of quite a bit of military kit.  Plus the owners of Dlask, Para, guys that work on the line at Colt Canada.  Most of the major Canadian vendors, and importers like Questar and ArmsEast are there too.  (Walter just had his first kid.)  There's even a movie armorer or two. I'm sure you'll find something to interest you.

Lets take this to PM, we've hijacked this thread pretty well.


----------



## lilEmber (Nov 21, 2008)

OK where to start...



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> I tend to use terms the firearms industry uses, SAAMI is the standard, regardless of civilian or military.  Context is everything, thanks for clearing that up.


Detonation in mag, firing in chamber. Get it, got it, good.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> Yes, it would appear so.  Detonation as it applies to blackpowder describes the shape of its pressure curve, and is not relevant to this discussion.  I was confused by your "military" term.


As I said you seem to have them both at the same level when they both mean different things.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've seen and shot 22 inch bolt guns out to 1,000yards.  The round means everything.  Go watch a PRA F/TR-class precision shoot, don't take my word for it, question authority!  The trick of course, is to keep the bullet supersonic all the way to the target.  MOA bullets at 600 yards wont hit a barn at 1,000 yards if they go subsonic at 800 yards due to upset when the shock wave collapses.


Take the barrel off a m2hb .50 BMG and fire it. I will give you a dollar for every time you hit a target at 200 yards with a weapon with its barrel able to easily hit 50 yards.
Also, at what range were you firing at that was 1,000 yards?
Sniper training ranges are 500-800 that's with optics.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> If you're using a handgun at ranges at which windage is an issue, its time to fight your way back to your rifle or call in close air support.


We were talking about accuracy of a weapon, not a instance of killing people.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> Nope.  Snipers tend to use optics, so iron site plane length is moot.  The real improvement between a .50bmg M2 and a Barret is the action type.  Bolt guns are always more accurate than self-loaders.  The less violent caming of the manual bolt ensures better and more consistent placement of the bullet in the throat of the chamber.  Chamber specs tend to be tighter too on bolt guns, shorter throat leads etc.


Sights mean NOTHING about the accuracy of a weapon.
I'm talking accuracy of the weapon, not if you can hit said target. Anybody able to use a rifle knows how to compensate if their shot is off, that doesn't make the accuracy greater.

At this point I'm 100% sure you know only a fraction about firearms and have never fired anything higher than .22 (or lower) in your life. Not been in the military as you claim.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> Good call.  They'll educate you pretty quick.  You'll find CGN made up of 30% hunters, 30% target shooters and 30% military.  Quite a few collectors and historians too.  A few with published and peer reviewed works.  Its the definitive standard for shooting in Canada.


I could talk circles around you about firearms I'm sure if they're using the same level of knowledge if I go in there and correct them with the right information I will still be called wrong.

Also, 30+30+30=90 ... so the other 10% must actually know what their talking about? sadly you do not fall in that category, not to be a asshole here but it's true the barrel length has more to do with accuracy than almost anything else. The FN-Five-seveN can't fire OR detonate out of battery, and the way you're talking about shooting at 1,000 yards means you've never fired a gun in your life, let alone at those ranges.



			
				Irreverent said:
			
		

> I'll not "out" them, but you'll find a certain bronze star winner or two on CGN. A fair number of ex-CF that are now Blackwater/Haliburton contractors too.  One of them wrote the spec for the new .338 sniper rifles being trialled by the CF.  You'll also find Prairie Gun Works and Alberta Tactical Rifle, the makers of quite a bit of military kit.  Plus the owners of Dlask, Para, guys that work on the line at Colt Canada.  Most of the major Canadian vendors, and importers like Questar and ArmsEast are there too.  (Walter just had his first kid.)  There's even a movie armorer or two. I'm sure you'll find something to interest you.



That has nothing at all to do with...ugh, medals mean JACK. if oyu use medals for accuracy it means nothing it simply means the operator is good, not the damn weapon.
Blackwater and all mercs are a total bunch of fuckin' morons, have you seen videos of them shooting? They couldn't hit a damn barn with their shots with a sniper rifle for god sakes and they were shooting at civilian cars in Iraq!



> You'll also find Prairie Gun Works and Alberta Tactical Rifle, the makers of quite a bit of military kit.  Plus the owners of Dlask, Para, guys that work on the line at Colt Canada.  Most of the major Canadian vendors, and importers like Questar and ArmsEast are there too. (Walter just had his first kid.)


Thanks I need to know that; comes in handy while I prove you wrong.



> Lets take this to PM, we've hijacked this thread pretty well.


Well I was still posting on-topic a little bit, not that going off topic while relating to guns is a big deal but you seem to be going way off the handle. Posting about people, other websites, groups, and armorers with nobody asking anything about them....


> Just got off the phone with a colleague (was ordering ammo, asked). The Mrk23 is imported by R.Nicholes and stocked by Wolverine and TSE in Canada. About $1,850 before the dollar crashed again.


You've even mentioned you just speaking to somebody on the phone about the mk.23 (along with purchasing ammo...over the...phone?...), which makes zero sense to me.


> It qualifies for IPSC open-division under IPSC Canada rules; even when stock, it doesn't meet the IPSC stock template, hence the open division. A quick search of CGN shows about 2-3 dozen Canadian civilian owners.


More useless information I never requested.


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## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

Runefox said:


> The only recorded occasion that an FN FiveseveN has ever fired "out of battery" was due to a double charged reload of custom bullets.



Perhaps.  As to only one?  The empirical evidence on google, wiki and even youtube would seem to belittle that.



> If you look closely, the front of the brass casing is blown away and ripped to shreds, which shouldn't have happened if it simply fired out of battery.



This of course is due to your expertise in what the mechanical failure of an unsupported brass case looks like?  Its been read and debated by more knowledgeable people than me on dozens of dedicated firearms sites around the world.



> You should also note that he wasn't supervised during the firing nor the reload of the ammunition (which is forbidden by the operations manual for this very reason),



True and irrelevant.  No modern manufacturer recommends the use of reloaded ammunition for reasons of liability.



> According to FN technical documents, the FiveseveN is incapable of firing out of battery due to the way in which the firing pin locks while chambering a bullet. The following is an explanation of that:



I think in this litigious age, its reasonable to expect the maker to denie responsibility.  And to gloss over the apparent design change between the earlier "rev 1" and current production "rev 3" pistols.

Its not just FN that does this.  Under similar circumstances, Ruger and Remington have dropped their semi-auto HMR2 guns in favour of bolts.



> Aside from this case, the FiveseveN has overall legendary reliability.



Time will tell.


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## Runefox (Nov 21, 2008)

Also, as my first on-topic post:

Assault Rifle: The Colt Canada C8A2 carbine
Pistol: H&K Mk.23
SMG: TDI Kriss Super V
Sniper Rifle: M24 SWS


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## Irreverent (Nov 21, 2008)

NewfDraggie said:


> Well I was still posting on-topic a little bit, not that going off topic while relating to guns is a big deal but you seem to be going way off the handle. Posting about people, other websites, groups, and armorers with nobody asking anything about them....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## lilEmber (Nov 21, 2008)

Irreverent said:
			
		

> Perhaps.  As to only one?  The empirical evidence on google, wiki and even youtube would seem to belittle that.
> 
> This of course is due to your expertise in what the mechanical failure of an unsupported brass case looks like?  Its been read and debated by more knowledgeable people than me on dozens of dedicated firearms sites around the world.


Could you source that for me?
Also, barrel length =/= accuracy? I'd like to know if I'm wrong, and I agree 100% with runefox.


Aslo stop messaging me about joining that site of nuts. I don't have the extra $1000.00+ laying around for a pistol and my FAC is long since expired. Also, even with FAC it's illegal to own a concealable firearm without the proper license. Which I doubt you or 75% of the people on that site even have.


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## Roose Hurro (Nov 22, 2008)

half-witted fur said:


> or the jackal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To bring more anime guns into this thread, I dug up this:

http://crimsonsguns.tripod.com/animeguns.html

Personally, I'd rather have Vash's gun...

http://www.fevereon.com/axis/gallery/vashgun.php




NAFFY said:


> You have good taste.



Thank you... I have a thing for the old, odd and unusual, both in looks and function.  Really would like a K31 in my cabinet, such a fantastic piece of precision machinework....




NewfDraggie said:


> Yes you're right, all those things will determine the accuracy and range of the weapon, though barrel length will give a significant more amount of energy or power behind the round *as well it will make the round have a better spin on it*, more force, and keep it from tumbling or the like, it's accuracy is directly effected and if it's too long its power will be too low, if it's too short the rounds will go all over the place (a tactic smg's use).



The rifling's rate of twist determines spin, not barrel length.  Accuracy is factored by the combination of bullet weight and rate of twist... lighter bullets _usually_ stabilize better with less twist, while heavier bullets stabilize better with more twist.  Which is why the M16 went from an original twist rate of (I believe) 1:14, which had trouble stabilizing even 55grain loads, down to a twist rate of 1:12, then, with the advent of heavy-bullet loads, a rate of 1:7.




Mercy said:


> Sort of planning on buying a gun.  Only planning on using it for target shooting and home protection (if need be), but mainly the first.  Right now I'm looking at either a .17HMR rifle or a 9mm/.40 pistol.  Anyone have some suggestions?
> 
> http://www.savagearms.com/93r17bvss.htm is about all I've found that appeals to me in the .17HMR, but it's a little pricey...



Actually, the price on the Savage isn't that bad... I've seen them at Sports Authority for less, so, if you're interested, you should shop around.  However, if you're interested in home protection use, a .17 rimfire is not a good choice.  Better would be a short-barreled shotgun, or a .38/9mm revolver/pistol.  A .38 Special revolver would also make a usable target gun, with proper selection:

http://www.shootersxchange.com/detail.cfm?recordID=77490

http://www.shootersxchange.com/detail.cfm?recordID=77493

http://www.shootersxchange.com/detail.cfm?recordID=77125

http://www.shootersxchange.com/detail.cfm?recordID=76361

http://www.shootersxchange.com/detail.cfm?recordID=64447

And here's a site with lots of stuff (just be prepared for some sticker-shock):

http://www.armchairgunshow.com/otsHA1_Smith_Wesson_HE.htm


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## Not A Fox (Nov 22, 2008)

One last thing, I promise:






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A0-RdKTGBg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuxpL7vayM&feature=related


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