# My General Take on Pride Month



## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 22, 2018)

_This post is meant to share my personal opinion, it is not at all meant to judge or bash others who disagree._

As a bisexual, I am told that I ought to be celebrating this month with all colors of pride. However, I do not like the idea of pride - be it a tool of brandish toward the homophobe, or a flamboyant expression that demands attention from others.

As a technical member of the LGBT community on the basis of my orientation, I do not believe that the LGBT community at large has acted appropriately concerning the rights its has been given. Do I believe we should all be in the closet and be afraid of saying who we are attracted to? Not at all. Society has made the right step in stopping discrimination toward those who are sexual minorities. Gay and bisexual people should not be afraid to say that they are gay and bisexual, and their discrimination in the past by members of my religion is a dark stain for which I apologize with all my heart

But I do not believe pride marches, pride months, or other outlandish kinds of public celebration is appropriate. I believe these things just fuel the homophobe and give the LGBT community an aura of "in your face" which is counterproductive to cultivating a culture of acceptance and compassion. These are just my conservative-leaning musings, but I am not one to tell others they can't do it. I understand the attractiveness of such expression, but I think it is counterproductive. Sexual orientation is still a private thing, meant to be discussed between trusted individuals. Not saying we shouldn't strive to find acceptance within the society at large, but I am saying we shouldn't be flamboyant about it.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 22, 2018)

Pride is a celebration of the gay rights movement in the same sense that the 4th of July is a celebration of US independence. The people that are going to be offended by it don't need an excuse. The fact that someone not straight simply exists and isn't persecuted under the law is offensive to them.


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## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 22, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Pride is a celebration of the gay rights movement in the same sense that the 4th of July is a celebration of US independence. The people that are going to be offended by it don't need an excuse. The fact that someone not straight simply exists and isn't persecuted under the law is offensive to them.



I get that train of thought, but I think sexuality has much different connotations and must be treated differently.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 22, 2018)

To put things in perspective, pride celibrates the end of things like mandatory conversion therapy, and forced sterilization. These where very real policies. It used to be a criminal offense to have gay sex.


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## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 22, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> To put things in perspective, pride celibrates the end of things like mandatory conversion therapy, and forced sterilization. These where very real policies. It used to be a criminal offense to have gay sex.



Yes, and I am glad people of same sex related orientations are better treated in this age. We may have our discussions on marriage and adoption (which first of all I believe should be private matters and not controlled by the state - no marriage benefits). I am still iffy on flamboyant expression of pride, however. I do not believe flamboyant pride for any matter is a good thing.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Jun 22, 2018)

Felix Bernard said:


> _This post is meant to share my personal opinion, it is not at all meant to judge or bash others who disagree._
> 
> As a bisexual, I am told that I ought to be celebrating this month with all colors of pride. However, I do not like the idea of pride - be it a tool of brandish toward the homophobe, or a flamboyant expression that demands attention from others.
> 
> ...



I think you need a little bit of a "brush up" on your history, a bit dude. The reason that we have Pride celebrations today (at all) - is because it was very necessary, and much needed - (at the time that they were created) - which was a very dark period when gay folks (most of the time) couldn't be open about themsleves, (and in turn) often hid (in the shadows) - of a very hostile, ambivalent, (and frequently) discriminatory society. The "outlandish celebrations" as you refer to it - was (often times) a way for many people to (for once) be "open" about themselves, and not have to hide their true identities.. (sometimes for the first time in their lives).

Visibility was an essential element - in informing (and educating) the larger public about (us gay folks) and our existence.

The celebrations didn't just tell people, but it also *showed* people (that we exist) inside their community - which was often times the very first step in getting people (in the larger society) to change some of their attitudes.


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## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 22, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> I think you need a little bit of a "brush up" on your history, a bit dude. The reason that we have Pride celebrations today (at all) - is because it was very necessary, and much needed - (at the time that they were created) - which was a very dark period when gay folks (most of the time) couldn't be open about themsleves, (and in turn) often hid (in the shadows) - of a very hostile, ambivalent, (and frequently) discriminatory society. The "outlandish celebrations" as you refer to it - was (often times) a way for many people to (for once) be "open" about themselves, and not have to hide their true identities.. (sometimes for the first time in their lives).
> 
> Visibility was an essential element - in informing (and educating) the larger public about (us gay folks) and our existence.
> 
> The celebrations didn't just tell people, but it also *showed* people (that we exist) inside their community - which was often times the very first step in getting people (in the larger society) to change some of their attitudes.



I guess I am thrown off by the term and usage of “pride” in this. I do not believe in pride in the sense of boasting in oneself, I find that to be reprehensible. But I guess there is a point to be made in what you are saying.
I have a complex view on this. I am not in agreement with those who wish to boast in themselves, nor am I in agreement with those who wish to ignore or undermine the history of discrimination.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 22, 2018)

There is a difference in having pride and having excessive and ill placed pride. It is one thing to be proud of completing a calculus course for example, it is another thing to swing that pride around and belittle others who have not achieved the same. It is also another thing to be prideful of things not worth being proud of, such as being proud of dropping out of school and being utterly ignorant. 

The pride celebration is that first definition of pride, as it celebrates the victories won for civil rights for those applicable, but does not seek to belittle those who currently lack civil rights ideally. There are some people who go to pride celebrations who are belittling of other's civil rights, but that is their personal damage.


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## quoting_mungo (Jun 22, 2018)

Felix Bernard said:


> I guess I am thrown off by the term and usage of “pride” in this. I do not believe in pride in the sense of boasting in oneself, I find that to be reprehensible. But I guess there is a point to be made in what you are saying.


I don't view the name "Pride" as a literal "this is something worth boasting about" pride. Rather, I view it as the opposite of shame. It's about saying "there's actually a lot of us and we're not okay with you trying to silence us" (in the metaphorical sense - if it's not okay for a gay couple to kiss or hold hands in public, but it's okay for a straight couple to do so, that's a form of silencing in this context).


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 22, 2018)

As a pansexual, I feel somewhat offended by this either way. This kind of defeats the whole purpose of pride in general. Actually, hearing that pride month is bad only makes me feel ashamed to be pan. It reminds me of all of the years I've been told that my orientation is invalid, nonexistent, or that I would have sex with fruit. I'm not going to yiff my own food. The same people who shared your opinion told me that I have to choose whether I'm gay or straight even though I'm neither. They then told me to kill myself and for years I've been considering it. Does that not mean anything to you about pride or how much it means to people like me? When I came out of the closet, I didn't want to jump back in again, yet it feels like I have to. So much for real pride... Just because of views like this one, I feel I'm just going to call it "shame month" from now on.

Lastly, this can be combated. Just start straight pride; problem solved.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 22, 2018)

ThunderSnowolf said:


> As a pansexual, I feel somewhat offended by this either way. This kind of defeats the whole purpose of pride in general. Actually, hearing that pride month is bad only makes me feel ashamed to be pan. It reminds me of all of the years I've been told that my orientation is invalid, nonexistent, or that I would have sex with fruit. I'm not going to yiff my own food. The same people who shared your opinion told me that I have to choose whether I'm gay or straight even though I'm neither. They then told me to kill myself and for years I've been considering it. Does that not mean anything to you about pride or how much it means to people like me? When I came out of the closet, I didn't want to jump back in again, yet it feels like I have to. So much for real pride... Just because of views like this one, I feel I'm just going to call it "shame month" from now on.
> 
> Lastly, this can be combated. Just start straight pride; problem solved.


Lets not start straight pride, I don't want to deal with a bunch of butthurt basement dwellers upset that gay people can fuck without getting their balls chopped off parading down main street.

There are problems within the LGBT community of acceptance of people with other identities under that umbrella. You would think people who have suffered oppression would know better, but people are people.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Jun 22, 2018)

Felix Bernard said:


> _This post is meant to share my personal opinion, it is not at all meant to judge or bash others who disagree._
> 
> As a bisexual, I am told that I ought to be celebrating this month with all colors of pride. However, I do not like the idea of pride - be it a tool of brandish toward the homophobe, or a flamboyant expression that demands attention from others.
> 
> ...


That is fine and you are right. It is just some individuals like to be out and proud as that is just how they express themselves.


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## Simo (Jun 22, 2018)

Another reason foxes are bad, and need to be spanked.....daily!


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## TrishaCat (Jun 22, 2018)

I used to feel similarly as you OP, and I'm still unsure of how I feel about pride parades. But pride month being what it is, where everyone in the LGBT community is expressing and being open about themselves, it helps give people who might feel scared to express themselves confidence. I myself never told my IRL friends that I was bi before this month. No one knew. But seeing everyone else being so open about themselves gave me courage, and there's probably a lot of other people in similar situations. People need that confidence boost that pride month provides. It helps such people feel better about themselves and not be scared. And that's cool if you ask me.


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## WithMyBearHands (Jun 22, 2018)

I don’t have a problem with the _idea _of a pride festival, but I really dislike what it’s become.  Every year it seems more and more to be just an excuse for LGBT to get utterly hammered in public with few social repercussions.  Many people act like children.  It’s important to be proud of who you are, it’s not okay to act like you’re better than everyone because you’re a literal walking rainbow with feathery wings.


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## WolfyAmbassador (Jun 22, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I don’t have a problem with the _idea _of a pride festival, but I really dislike what it’s become.  Every year it seems more and more to be just an excuse for LGBT to get utterly hammered in public with few social repercussions.  Many people act like children.  It’s important to be proud of who you are, it’s not okay to act like you’re better than everyone because you’re a literal walking rainbow with feathery wings.


 Literally looks like a bunch of a attention whores looking and doing perverted things in front of the children that come there too.


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## WithMyBearHands (Jun 22, 2018)

WolfyAmbassador said:


> Literally looks like a bunch of a attention whores looking and doing perverted things in front of the children that come there too.


The sad part is I know the vast majority of them don’t even know why we celebrate.  The last festival I went to was a drunk sexcapade involving a Marilyn Monroe cosplayer


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## Troj (Jun 22, 2018)

Haters are gonna hate.

People in _general_ should strive to lead lives that they can be proud of; should generally consider how their behavior comes across, and should think about how their actions may reflect on those around them.

But, there's a tendency to hold minorities to an even higher standard than the general population. In order to get ahead or make good impression in certain milieus or situations, some of us may unfortunately have to play that game, but we should nonetheless recognize that this game is unfair.

Someone should not have to be a saint in order to be worthy of rights, dignity, and basic respect.

We need to be savvy to the fact that homophobic concern-trolls will latch onto every example of a dude in assless chaps or people snogging on the grass in order to undermine LGBTQ rights and visibility, and will even fabricate or grossly exaggerate examples of bad behavior to make their case.

Pride is fundamentally about embracing who we are without shame, reflecting on the lessons of history, raising our glasses to those who have sacrificed so that we might someday walk in the sun, and recognizing that we're not home free yet. It's a party, sure, but it's so much more.

Because we can go backwards as easily as we can go forwards, we can never afford to take Pride for granted.

So, my sense is that people should make a point to generally behave themselves at Pride (and otherwise) and not act like total dipshits, but at the same time, not get too bent out of shape about what homophobes think, because they'll never truly be happy as long as LGBTQ just exist openly.

When we're uncomfortable with someone else's behavior, we should ask ourselves why, and if we'd be just as uneasy with a member of a different group or tribe behaving the same way. It's pretty telling how some folks are embarrassed by gay people being "flamboyant," but don't even blink when straight people behave the same way.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

The Church teaches people that pride is a sin, even to this day, right? But back in the old days, you were punished by the church for showing pride. Like all tbe otber "sins". And homosexuality was above all the worst sin, even though the church hierarchy often practiced it behind closed doors. But like a lot of things the church did in the dark ages is still taught today, the same hypocrisy still happens today. And homosexuality is not a sin. It never was. But of course men wrote the book. And men preach their own interpretations of it. Jesus taught love, acceptance, and forgiveness. Never did he preach hate like a lot of his followers do.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

Troj said:


> Haters are gonna hate.
> 
> People in _general_ should strive to lead lives that they can be proud of; should generally consider how their behavior comes across, and should think about how their actions may reflect on those around them.
> 
> ...


It is called hypocrisy.


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## Troj (Jun 22, 2018)

Minorities are often held to a double standard, which is hypocrisy of a kind, yes.

In this case, I'd actually like LGBTQ to stop and reflect on the messages they've received about themselves from both the queer community and the larger straight society, for good or ill. What does it mean to be a "real" or a "true" or a "good" queer person, versus a "fake" or "bad" one, and where did those schemas originate from? Consider your idea of "embarrassing" behavior---what does it entail or encompass, where did it possibly originate from, and does it serve you and others? What are you afraid will happen if queer people are seen engaging in "bad" or "embarrassing" behaviors? What are you afraid will happen if you or others are judged by the queer community for not meeting certain standards?


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Jun 22, 2018)

I agree that it's counter-productive, and in my opinion, the _flamboyant gay _stereotype is harmful, even or especially when it's the gay community enforcing it.

I also don't see why anyone should be proud of their sexuality. It's nothing special.
I'm ashamed of my sexuality, so, I am biased, but even if I wasn't, I wouldn't want special attention for it. I would want to be considered normal, the same as a fully straight person.

Surely gay and bisexual people should be trying to get people to understand that they're just as normal as anyone else, not dressing themselves up with colorful and tacky accessories and sharing their fetishes with the public?


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

Clearly we have a long way to go as a species.


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## BahgDaddy (Jun 22, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> The sad part is I know the vast majority of them don’t even know why we celebrate.  The last festival I went to was a drunk sexcapade involving a Marilyn Monroe cosplayer



People have always found excuses to have drunk, slightly sexually risqué public events. That's not particularly specific to the LGBT Pride people, so pretending it is, is pretty stupid.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> People have always found excuses to have drunk, slightly sexually risqué public events. That's not particularly specific to the LGBT Pride people, so pretending it is, is pretty stupid.


Amen! Look at Mardi Gras! Or Carnival! Or any NFL game or College Football Game! But if gay people do it it is bad!(thick dripping sarcasm)


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## WithMyBearHands (Jun 22, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> People have always found excuses to have drunk, slightly sexually risqué public events. That's not particularly specific to the LGBT Pride people, so pretending it is, is pretty stupid.


It’s not.  I’m not saying it is at all.  I’m saying that we don’t get special treatment and need to be held accountable for behavior the same way as straight people.  You can’t just excuse it because it’s a Pride event.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jun 22, 2018)

Yeah... As the fandom's rank one furfag, I don't get why we have gay pride. It's no one's business what I like to fuck.


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## Shoiyo (Jun 22, 2018)

While I'm all for being proud of who I am (screw all those who engage in bi-erasure) I can't help but feel that the thousands if not millions of dollars put toward celebrations could go toward things like Rainbow Railroad or Rainbow Bridge to help those who are in countries where being a homosexual is still punishable by death. It's all good to celebrate how far we've come. But it's still important to remember those who are where we were.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

My wife and I took our two teenaged kids to the Pride Festival here in Atlanta. Had a great time! I didn't see anything there you don't see at any music festival or other celebrations.


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## Galatur René (Jun 22, 2018)

Shoiyo said:


> While I'm all for being proud of who I am (screw all those who engage in bi-erasure) I can't help but feel that the thousands if not millions of dollars put toward celebrations could go toward things like Rainbow Railroad or Rainbow Bridge to help those who are in countries where being a homosexual is still punishable by death. It's all good to celebrate how far we've come. But it's still important to remember those who are where we were.


I don't know about the Pride events you have been to, but the Trans Pride march that I went to that lead to the Portland Pride festival had tables for many such things to help others. In fact, it seemed almost to me like Portland's pride festival acted as one giant fundraiser for such things, which I thought was a very nice way to do things.


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Lets not start straight pride, I don't want to deal with a bunch of butthurt basement dwellers upset that gay people can fuck without getting their balls chopped off parading down main street.
> 
> There are problems within the LGBT community of acceptance of people with other identities under that umbrella. You would think people who have suffered oppression would know better, but people are people.



Being straight doesn't make someone a basement dweller. And actually, I don't have any balls because I'm a woman. I've suffered oppression too. In fact, I've even been a victim of a hate crime. I'm lucky not to have been killed being as no weapons were involved other than fists.


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Clearly we have a long way to go as a species.



What's with the "we"? I don't identify as your species. I'm very sorry. 
And please, don't bash me for that. I'd really appreciate it.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

ThunderSnowolf said:


> What's with the "we"? I don't identify as your species. I'm very sorry.
> And please, don't bash me for that. I'd really appreciate it.


Believe me, the human species is the most wretched and disappointing species on this planet. That's the truth of it. So no bashing from me.


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Simo said:


> Another reason foxes are bad, and need to be spanked.....daily!



Really, because Ryan is a fox. He finds calling all individuals of his species "bad" to be speciesist because he is in fact good. There are no bad foxes, only bad exotic pet owners.
Also, as his current owner, I can most certainly say that you don't want to spank him... He's very defensive and he bites.


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Believe me, the human species is the most wretched and disappointing species on this planet. That's the truth of it. So no bashing from me.


Really? All humans are wretched and disappointing? Now that is just speciesist. What about children? Children are innocent. Don't forget, you claimed to be human. Misanthropy is wrong and it's the reason why I do not identify as human. Actually, that almost got me hurt too. Why do you hate humans so much? What did I ever do to you back when I did identify as one of you?


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

Galatur René said:


> I don't know about the Pride events you have been to, but the Trans Pride march that I went to that lead to the Portland Pride festival had tables for many such things to help others. In fact, it seemed almost to me like Portland's pride festival acted as one giant fundraiser for such things, which I thought was a very nice way to do things.


There were alot of fundraisers at Atlanta's Pride Fest as well. And there was a parade and of course one of the floats(which unfortunately we didnt get to see) was a bunch of Furry Fursuiters!


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jun 22, 2018)

ThunderSnowolf said:


> Really? All humans are wretched and disappointing? Now that is just speciesist. What about children? Children are innocent. Don't forget, you claimed to be human. Misanthropy is wrong and it's the reason why I do not identify as human. Actually, that almost got me hurt too. Why do you hate humans so much? What did I ever do to you back when I did identify as one of you?


Human children can be as cruel as adults, hence bullying. Did I wrong you or something?


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 22, 2018)

ThunderSnowolf said:


> Being straight doesn't make someone a basement dweller. And actually, I don't have any balls because I'm a woman. I've suffered oppression too. In fact, I've even been a victim of a hate crime. I'm lucky not to have been killed being as no weapons were involved other than fists.


A lot of the people who bitch about Pride use "well there isn't a straight pride!" as a deflection when called out for homophobic statements. 

Plenty of people have been oppressed because they were LGBT, but nobody has been oppressed on basis of them being straight.


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A lot of the people who bitch about Pride use "well there isn't a straight pride!" as a deflection when called out for homophobic statements.
> 
> Plenty of people have been oppressed because they were LGBT, but nobody has been oppressed on basis of them being straight.



Well think about it; maybe if we did give homophobes a straight pride month, then they'd finally shut up about it. If they don't, then I don't know what else to do. Sadly, it seems there'll always be hate on this plane no matter what.


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## Yvvki (Jun 22, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A lot of the people who bitch about Pride use "well there isn't a straight pride!" as a deflection when called out for homophobic statements.
> 
> Plenty of people have been oppressed because they were LGBT, but nobody has been oppressed on basis of them being straight.


This is just my opinion but everyone deserves to feel appreciated, that's why people want a straight pride... And to a point I agree, because everyone should be valid. 
I also understand that the gay pride is more so saying that "We also matter" but if you think about it, doesn't everyone matter?

That's just how I interpret it though.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)




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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Yeah... As the fandom's rank one furfag, I don't get why we have gay pride. It's no one's business what I like to fuck.


Homosexuality isn't all about sex though. Many people I've met who are gay weren't even of legal age to do so.


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## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

ThunderSnowolf said:


> Homosexuality isn't all about sex though. Many people I've met who are gay weren't even of legal age to do so.


That’s the problem though.  Too many people are concerned with partying that they don’t remember _why _we celebrate and the long journey it was to get here.  Also I like the idea of putting the money usually spent on lavish festivals towards helping people that are in real danger because of their orientation or gender identity.  The majority of what I see is people using the festivities and being LGBT as an excuse to act like a bunch of drunk animals in public.


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## ThunderSnowolf (Jun 23, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> That’s the problem though.  Too many people are concerned with partying that they don’t remember _why _we celebrate and the long journey it was to get here.  Also I like the idea of putting the money usually spent on lavish festivals towards helping people that are in real danger because of their orientation or gender identity.  The majority of what I see is people using the festivities and being LGBT as an excuse to act like a bunch of drunk animals in public.



Well humans are biologically animals to begin with so everyone's a party animal. Literally. But when you think about it like that, LGBT pride seems to be a very controversial subject in general. With how this post turned out, it's pretty disheartening to hear a lot of the problems that go on during this month, especially in concerns to hate crimes.


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## BahgDaddy (Jun 23, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> It’s not.  I’m not saying it is at all.  I’m saying that we don’t get special treatment and need to be held accountable for behavior the same way as straight people.  You can’t just excuse it because it’s a Pride event.



Any large event where people act stupid I tend to avoid. But as I said already, there's no need to single out Pride events for special criticism. It helps bring awareness, make it more visible for people to see, and as someone just mentioned, also act as fundraising. 



Yvvki said:


> This is just my opinion but everyone deserves to feel appreciated, that's why people want a straight pride... And to a point I agree, because everyone should be valid.
> I also understand that the gay pride is more so saying that "We also matter" but if you think about it, doesn't everyone matter?
> 
> That's just how I interpret it though.



Straight pride is a bit redundant. It would be like celebrating white pride. Kind of insulting really, when it's still the default norm.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Pride is a tricky business.
-
There is nothing wrong with being prideful about something, especially when it is being used as a means to normalize it or equalize it with society.
-
However, we have to ask ourselves when that pride overstays its welcome.  In my opinion, Pride is starting to teeter on that line between necessity and overstaying.
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There's a reason Pride is a vice and one of the seven deadly sins.  Nationalism, Excessive Altruism... these two things lead to dangerous circumstances, and both have a form of pride in them (Excessive Altruism is being too prideful to admit that not everyone deserves to be helped or not everyone CAN be helped).
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I don't have to remind people that Germany used to have a very high emphasis on pride.
-




-
Gay Pride can't exactly have the same impact due to sheer self-limitations, but that doesn't mean Pride can't turn into something ugly if it continues long enough.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

TBH the biggest problem with pride has been the gatekeeping issue, where many people are trying to cut the B and T out of LGBT. It's also a bit of a sausage fest nowadays, to where lesbians feel less welcome. It has become a real issue where a celebration for tolerance and acceptance has become the battleground of that kind of divisive bullshit.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


>


Would make a wonderful excuse when a gay person decides he wants to be an asshole.
-
"Goddamn it dude why you being such a dick?"
-
"You're straight."
-
This is the perfect example of Pride going too far.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> TBH the biggest problem with pride has been the gatekeeping issue, where many people are trying to cut the B and T out of LGBT. It's also a bit of a sausage fest nowadays, to where lesbians feel less welcome. It has become a real issue where a celebration for tolerance and acceptance has become the battleground of that kind of divisive bullshit.


This is why I don't take Pride very seriously; it forces those within it to gatekeep, because they want to be "inclusive" but also be for specific people.  You can't have both.  If they attempt to do the former they will simply continue growing the LGBT larger and larger until it becomes a parody of itself and reduces to the very individual themselves.  If they attempt to go with the latter, then gatekeeping is necessary and thus you begin taking the Pride too far.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> That’s the problem though.  Too many people are concerned with partying that they don’t remember _why _we celebrate and the long journey it was to get here.  Also I like the idea of putting the money usually spent on lavish festivals towards helping people that are in real danger because of their orientation or gender identity.  The majority of what I see is people using the festivities and being LGBT as an excuse to act like a bunch of drunk animals in public.


Exactly.
-
That's the issue when you make parades about sexual identity.  There is a tendency to actually participate in said sexuality.
-
That's why Gay Pride parades tend to be memed up to where they're just kinkfest gatherings.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Would make a wonderful excuse when a gay person decides he wants to be an asshole.
> -
> "Goddamn it dude why you being such a dick?"
> -
> ...



That isn't pride, that is othering and gross generalization. Pride refers to an assessment of one's own value and accomplishments, whether taken too far or not. The argument being presented is that people under the LGBT umbrella are normally deemed of lesser value by society (less extremely than ever but still), while straight people can feel comfortable in their existence and self worth. Being proud of being gay and having that self worth does not justify belittling others. That isn't to say some people don't use that as an irrational and wrong argument for being a bellend to straight people, because humans _are such wonderful exemplars of rationality and logic_. With enough stupidity, any valid argument can be used out of context as a verbal bludgeon. 

LGBT exists primarily  for anyone who doesn't fit the straight cis norm, as an activism focus for civil rights. It allows people to be a part of a group or collective instead of the other or outsider in the normal collective of society. It should serve as an identity to bring a sense of belonging and unity of purpose, but after the gays got most of their rights people started turning into the boys club, girls club, and "WELL YOU ARE IN A STRAIGHT RELATIONSHIP SO YOU AREN'T REALLY BI", and "TRANS WOMEN AREN'T REALLY WOMEN!", etc. Whatever unity that civil rights movement had really has begun to go into decay, as individual identities split off into their own cliques. And nobody wants to go to a parade for inclusion to be told how much they don't belong. 

As a period of celebration and awareness it works, but some parades are probably guilty of turning it into borderline kinkfests. While some countries probably need a kink parade or two *cough*UK*cough* a lot of LGBT people are actually put off by that, about as much as furries are put off by people who wear kink stuff to general furcons.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> That isn't pride, that is othering and gross generalization. Pride refers to an assessment of one's own value and accomplishments, whether taken too far or not. The argument being presented is that people under the LGBT umbrella are normally deemed of lesser value by society (less extremely than ever but still), while straight people can feel comfortable in their existence and self worth. Being proud of being gay and having that self worth does not justify belittling others. That isn't to say some people don't use that as an irrational and wrong argument for being a bellend to straight people, because humans _are such wonderful exemplars of rationality and logic_. With enough stupidity, any valid argument can be used out of context as a verbal bludgeon.


Perhaps I am not choosing my words correctly; maybe a more accurate description is "entitlement" which I think tends to go hand-in-hand with pride (you wouldn't be able to claim entitlement to anything if you weren't proud of something).  So many LGBT people and even minorities in general tend to feel entitled that "Because I am a minority group I can justifiably ridicule anyone outside that minority group."
-
Every time someone says, "You don't deserve ____ because you're not a minority" they immediately stop being inclusive.  Ironic I don't see the "Tolerance Paradox" being used in respect to Pride.


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Any large event where people act stupid I tend to avoid. But as I said already, there's no need to single out Pride events for special criticism. It helps bring awareness, make it more visible for people to see, and as someone just mentioned, also act as fundraising.
> 
> 
> 
> Straight pride is a bit redundant. It would be like celebrating white pride. Kind of insulting really, when it's still the default norm.



There really is no default norm where I live so maybe it's different. ( Canada is multicultural. ) 

Also I do believe that white people should celebrate themselves, just as much as any other kind of people.

It's not right to exclude someone from self love, period.
Also... I bet you can't tell the difference between Italian, Czech, British, German, French, Russian, Irish, Ukrainian, Greek, or Polish people. 
Not all white people are "American"


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> There really is no default norm where I live so maybe it's different. ( wtf is a default norm? Canada is multicultural. )
> 
> Also I do believe that white people should celebrate themselves, just as much as any other kind of people.
> 
> ...


It's ironic because in order for the people who are "oppressed" to have an excuse to treat straights, whites, and males like garbage is to believe in a default norm.
-
Also I don't think anyone should celebrate their race.  In the past we tried to prove that Race was an insignificant feature that didn't tell anyone about that person, that race DOESN'T matter.  We shouldn't regress back to that.
-
Racial pride is silly, no matter what context.  Thing about Gay Pride is that it's going in the opposite direction that's allowing people to hijack and gatekeep it.  The whole Civil Right's Movement for blacks was an attempt to devalue race as a trait in people and focus on their individuality.  That was their whole argument; race doesn't matter, their character does.
-
Gay Pride shouldn't continue much longer.  It should be replaced with what made the Civil Rights Movement of the past work; ignoring the traits of people by group, rather urging others to judge each other by their individual traits and aspects.  If not, one of two things will happen; LGBT will die as a legitimate movement, or we will get into a culture war based on group identity.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Canada pulls the same bullshit with Natives that we do with ours, so I don't know how multicultural you can really call it. Canada is by and large more progressive than the United States socially for the most part, but it still has its skeletons. Everyone's shit stinks, just not equally bad. 

It's one thing to be proud about your heritage, its another to be proud about a race. I can be proud about my US heritage, British heritage, Irish heritage, and I think there is some German in there too, but I forget. None of that is taken to any extreme to where I'm trying to justify British Imperialism or the Holocaust, because I can also admit to the bad shit and denounce it. Unless I am playing strategy games, in which case rampant nationalism is part of the fun.

Part of the underlying objective of the LGBT movement was to abolish the idea of straight/cis being some kind of default norm as far as people view themselves and each other. The major goal of civil rights movements is to seek an end to unequal treatment by the law and society, and in that regard the LGBT rights movement still has a ways to go, but I'm worried it is fracturing into its own separate movements for specific issues. 

I think the "culture war" element is a ridiculous statement, but the idea of Identity politics being used to verbally bludgeon political opponents is a very real problem, and a massive pain in my ass. There are some white gay dudes that are fucking racist, and if you call them on it they try to hide behind their identity like its some kind of oppression olympics. There are some Lesbians that say some absolutely trans-phobic shit, and if you call them on it will scream about how you are a man/not a real woman and therefore everything you say is utterly invalid. IdPol is where intersectionality and social progress go to die.


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## quoting_mungo (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> This is why I don't take Pride very seriously; it forces those within it to gatekeep, because they want to be "inclusive" but also be for specific people.  You can't have both.  If they attempt to do the former they will simply continue growing the LGBT larger and larger until it becomes a parody of itself and reduces to the very individual themselves.  If they attempt to go with the latter, then gatekeeping is necessary and thus you begin taking the Pride too far.


Um... no? There is absolutely no need to gatekeep. You can be inclusive while focusing on marginalized sexual/gender identities. The easiest way to do this is just to assume that people who want to be part of Pride want to be part of it for a reason. You can accept individuals' self-identification as QUILTBAG/queer, and allow the queer community to function as a support network for people whose sexuality or gender identity don't fit the norm, or who simply aren't sure whether it does. There is absolutely no reason to assume it'll balloon out of control for accepting self-identification. Non-queer people generally don't have an interest in identifying as queer, so it's self-limiting without gatekeeping and exclusionism entering the picture.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Gay Pride shouldn't continue much longer. It should be replaced with what made the Civil Rights Movement of the past work; ignoring the traits of people by group, rather urging others to judge each other by their individual traits and aspects. If not, one of two things will happen; LGBT will die as a legitimate movement, or we will get into a culture war based on group identity.


That's a false equivalence, though. There is no "coming out" as black. While I'm sure there are people who struggle in some ways with their racial identity, on the whole accepting your racial heritage doesn't involve bucking a default expectation. Many people, probably most, who end up identifying as QUILTBAG, at some point went through a period of self-discovery and/or confusion that is markedly different in character from what cishet teens go through when they start experiencing sexual attraction.


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Canada pulls the same bullshit with Natives that we do with ours, so I don't know how multicultural you can really call it. Canada is by and large more progressive than the United States socially for the most part, but it still has its skeletons. Everyone's shit stinks, just not equally bad.
> 
> It's one thing to be proud about your heritage, its another to be proud about a race. I can be proud about my US heritage, British heritage, Irish heritage, and I think there is some German in there too, but I forget. None of that is taken to any extreme to where I'm trying to justify British Imperialism or the Holocaust, because I can also admit to the bad shit and denounce it. Unless I am playing strategy games, in which case rampant nationalism is part of the fun.
> 
> ...


I was brought up with the idea that everyone is equal, and to judge people as individuals by their personalities. Nothing else.
That's just how I was raised... I just wish more people had the ability to just get along with other people, no matter what color/race/sexual orientation they are.
Where I live, there is a mix of all kinds of people. When I go to the store, other light colored people are actually few and far between. I don't get bothered by this though. I have lived around all kinds of people, we all treated each other like family.... It's really sad to see how people struggle with this concept.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Um... no? There is absolutely no need to gatekeep. You can be inclusive while focusing on marginalized sexual/gender identities. The easiest way to do this is just to assume that people who want to be part of Pride want to be part of it for a reason. You can accept individuals' self-identification as QUILTBAG/queer, and allow the queer community to function as a support network for people whose sexuality or gender identity don't fit the norm, or who simply aren't sure whether it does. There is absolutely no reason to assume it'll balloon out of control for accepting self-identification. Non-queer people generally don't have an interest in identifying as queer, so it's self-limiting without gatekeeping and exclusionism entering the picture.


You didn't pay attention to the thing you quoted.
-
"Queer" was invented in order to address the problem of identities spiraling out of control and LGBT becoming a self-parody of endless identities.  Yet the term itself is so vague that it contains the same problem with it; what is a "Queer" except an end-all term for those who "do not fit with the norm"?  It essentially proves my point; either it needs to be gatekept in order to continue to exist, or it becomes so inclusive that it essentially becomes meaningless.


quoting_mungo said:


> That's a false equivalence, though. There is no "coming out" as black. While I'm sure there are people who struggle in some ways with their racial identity, on the whole accepting your racial heritage doesn't involve bucking a default expectation. Many people, probably most, who end up identifying as QUILTBAG, at some point went through a period of self-discovery and/or confusion that is markedly different in character from what cishet teens go through when they start experiencing sexual attraction.


No.  It's not a False Equivalence because you ignore the fundamental point.
-
The point being that the idea behind fighting for normality was to be normal, thus putting your physical and mental traits aside and focusing on the content of their character rather than the color of their skin, the conditions of their mind, the conditions of their body, etc.  That was the whole point.
-
But if LGBT isn't fighting for normality, what are they fighting for?  LGBT is, as ironic as it sounds, having an identity crisis.  Is it fighting for normality?  Is it fighting for special treatment?  Because, at least what it seems to me, if you're not fighting to be normal you're fighting to be recognized and treated differently but only if that treatment is positive.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

The idea that we are all equal is a farce. The idea that we are all equals is equally fanciful. The idea that we should all be equals is a noble goal worth striving for. People are not born equal in ability, but there is nothing wrong with that, because we are still all deserving of being treated with equal respect as people assuming we don't do something astonishingly shitty to unearn that basic standard of respect. But the fact is, we don't all get the same opportunities, and some of that is the result of deliberate policy enacted by bigoted shitbags past and present.
"From where you're kneeling it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck.
Truth is...the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The idea that we are all equal is a farce. The idea that we are all equals is equally fanciful. The idea that we should all be equals is a noble goal worth striving for. People are not born equal in ability, but there is nothing wrong with that, because we are still all deserving of being treated with equal respect as people assuming we don't do something astonishingly shitty to unearn that basic standard of respect. But the fact is, we don't all get the same opportunities, and some of that is the result of deliberate policy enacted by bigoted shitbags past and present.
> "From where you're kneeling it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck.
> Truth is...the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas.


This is basically restating, "Content of their character" that I've been speaking about this entire time.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

It was directed at the nieve idea that we exist in some post bigotry society far removed from the results of policies prior and current, not your post. I should have included a quote for context.


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The idea that we are all equal is a farce. The idea that we are all equals is equally fanciful. The idea that we should all be equals is a noble goal worth striving for. People are not born equal in ability, but there is nothing wrong with that, because we are still all deserving of being treated with equal respect as people assuming we don't do something astonishingly shitty to unearn that basic standard of respect. But the fact is, we don't all get the same opportunities, and some of that is the result of deliberate policy enacted by bigoted shitbags past and present.
> "From where you're kneeling it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck.
> Truth is...the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas.


To be fair. Where I live, you automatically get treated better/have more opportunities if you are different.  Mainly because we strive for diversity where I am.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> To be fair. Where I live, you automatically get treated better/have more opportunities if you are different.  Mainly because we strive for diversity where I am.


Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry.  Because who defines "normal"?


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry.  Because who defines "normal"?


Yea my bf is getting that... He was told during an interview for a job to work with kids, that they won't even see his resume because he's an older straight white man.

I was upset about that one...

And he's been working with kids for years and years with a clean record pier to this job.

Anyhow back on track... Why does it irritate people so much when people want to celebrate themselves? 
Let people have some self love.


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## Yakamaru (Jun 23, 2018)

Pride month... We don't need pride month.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry.  Because who defines "normal"?


It's not reverse bigotry. It's just bigotry.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry.  Because who defines "normal"?


You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.



Yvvki said:


> Yea my bf is getting that... He was told during an interview for a job to work with kids, that they won't even see his resume because he's an older straight white man.
> 
> I was upset about that one...
> 
> And he's been working with kids for years and years with a clean record pier to this job.



A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm white!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token black before the government gets curious. Which is testament to quotas not actually curbing racist hiring practices, just forcing racist businesses to hire tokens when they come to the end of the roster.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> *You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.*
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm white!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token black before the government gets curious.


You're wrong here.  You do these things out of the desire to improve people's lives, not out "reparations".
-
The idea that it's "reparations" makes it seem like I have to pay for something I never did, but simply because I have similar traits toward someone who did.   So what happens when it somehow gets reversed; where minorities become the majority and what was once the majority is discriminated against?  Do we not get reparations because we were historically privileged?


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm white!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token black before the government gets curious. Which is testament to quotas not actually curbing racist hiring practices, just forcing racist businesses to hire tokens when they come to the end of the roster.


The interview took place in a coffee shop and I was there in line getting a drink when it happened. ( Our roommate drove us and we were going to get groceries afterwards. )

They said that word for word. It was not him being over dramatic... in fact he did not say anything about it except the fact that it went against the Basic Human Rights act...


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## Yakamaru (Jun 23, 2018)

A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm gay!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token gay before the government gets curious. Which is testament to quotas not actually curbing racist hiring practices, just forcing racist businesses to hire tokens when they come to the end of the roster.

See what I did there?



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.


You don't hold people alive today accountable for the actions of their ancestors. That is utterly moronic and gets the ridicule that is well-deserved.

Want me to hold *you* accountable for the actions of your ancestors? Doesn't sound so fun when you change the target now, does it?

You can't change the past by forcing "reparations" on people living *today*. That only makes shit worse and you look as if you're entitled to shit that didn't even happen to you.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jun 23, 2018)

Canada can burn into ashes.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Canada can burn into ashes.


Ashes aren't diverse.


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Canada can burn into ashes.


Why, aren't you a bucket of sunshine? ☆


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You're wrong here.  You do these things out of the desire to improve people's lives, not out "reparations".
> -
> The idea that it's "reparations" makes it seem like I have to pay for something I never did, but simply because I have similar traits toward someone who did.   So what happens when it somehow gets reversed; where minorities become the majority and what was once the majority is discriminated against?  Do we not get reparations because we were historically privileged?


A government or collective society owes reparations for collective wrongs done against groups of people. Otherwise you leave people who have suffered those wrongs at an inherent disadvantage in society. You can see this in the United States, where black communities where disadvantaged by policies of red-lining after putting up with centuries of prior bullshit and Jim Crow. The tangible results of this are that black families where for the most part forced to purchase homes in worse neighborhoods with little access to home loans. Over the course of decades this resulted in the depreciation of the value of these homes, a lack of development in these neighborhoods, and a segregation of schools. Let that cook for a few decades and throw in de-industrialization and you've created a recipe for black poverty and education access problems. Our state allowed such practices to be carried out, even after they became officially illegal, so it is the responsibility of our government to unfuck that mistake, preferably holding those individually accountable financially responsible. I do hold myself collectively accountable through the collectively represented body of government for wrongs that I could be held thusly accountable for. I actively seek remediation for wrongs committed against others by my government and those committed through its unwillingness to act to prevent discriminatory practices. I do community work to help those impacted by those wrongs. I'm not ashamed because I am not personally responsible for those actions, but I understand that there is a communal responsibility to put right wrongs committed by a community.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Ashes aren't diverse.


It depends, as some members of the alt right have a very diverse list of oven-worthy groups and individuals. Does that make them worse or better than Nazis? Or at least that is what I should ask tumblr on an alt account from behind a blast proof screen.


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

To be fair...if Canada burned into ashes, I would no longer have to be concerned for the people in the US. 
That's a good silver lining, right?


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> To be fair...if Canada burned into ashes, I would no longer have to be concerned for the people in the US.
> That's a good silver lining, right?


BUT MAH HAT!


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A government or collective society owes reparations for collective wrongs done against groups of people. Otherwise you leave people who have suffered those wrongs at an inherent disadvantage in society. You can see this in the United States, where black communities where disadvantaged by policies of red-lining after putting up with centuries of prior bullshit and Jim Crow. The tangible results of this are that black families where for the most part forced to purchase homes in worse neighborhoods with little access to home loans. Over the course of decades this resulted in the depreciation of the value of these homes, a lack of development in these neighborhoods, and a segregation of schools. Let that cook for a few decades and throw in de-industrialization and you've created a recipe for black poverty and education access problems. Our state allowed such practices to be carried out, even after they became officially illegal, so it is the responsibility of our government to unfuck that mistake, preferably holding those individually accountable financially responsible. I do hold myself collectively accountable through the collectively represented body of government for wrongs that I could be held thusly accountable for. I actively seek remediation for wrongs committed against others by my government and those committed through its unwillingness to act to prevent discriminatory practices. I do community work to help those impacted by those wrongs. I'm not ashamed because I am not personally responsible for those actions, but *I understand that there is a communal responsibility to put right wrongs committed by a community.*


That's a government unfucking mistakes on behalf of its people, not reparations for wrongs against a particular group of people (because believe it or not, specific groups of people weren't all affected by these changes).
-
Like every good lie told, this quote holds a semblance of truth, which I highlighted; there is a moral responsibility of people to take care of each other.
-
But your excessive collectivist thinking is like cancer; it continues to envelop everything.  First of all, you say "my government" as though the government only represents you instead the citizens of its country.  Thus if that's true then what moral argument do you have for people who are not under the authority of the government?
-
Secondly, it creates the illusion of groups fighting for control; instead of going past that primitive idea, you've embraced it without considering that perhaps that's a regressive way of thinking.  You should do these things to help other humans, not because it's a payment for past crimes.  It shouldn't matter which group did what because people aren't their group.


----------



## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A government or collective society owes reparations for collective wrongs done against groups of people. Otherwise you leave people who have suffered those wrongs at an inherent disadvantage in society. You can see this in the United States, where black communities where disadvantaged by policies of red-lining after putting up with centuries of prior bullshit and Jim Crow. The tangible results of this are that black families where for the most part forced to purchase homes in worse neighborhoods with little access to home loans. Over the course of decades this resulted in the depreciation of the value of these homes, a lack of development in these neighborhoods, and a segregation of schools. Let that cook for a few decades and throw in de-industrialization and you've created a recipe for black poverty and education access problems. Our state allowed such practices to be carried out, even after they became officially illegal, so it is the responsibility of our government to unfuck that mistake, preferably holding those individually accountable financially responsible. I do hold myself collectively accountable through the collectively represented body of government for wrongs that I could be held thusly accountable for. I actively seek remediation for wrongs committed against others by my government and those committed through its unwillingness to act to prevent discriminatory practices. I do community work to help those impacted by those wrongs. I'm not ashamed because I am not personally responsible for those actions, but I understand that there is a communal responsibility to put right wrongs committed by a community.
> 
> 
> It depends, as some members of the alt right have a very diverse list of oven-worthy groups and individuals. Does that make them worse or better than Nazis? Or at least that is what I should ask tumblr on an alt account from behind a blast proof screen.



We tried doing that in Canada with Natives. Instead of getting a head start from the free education/college. Most of them continue to abuse the system and milk it for everything they can get while doing nothing to better themselves by just getting drunk and pretty much treating their Childern like crap and then the cycle continues. 

Why are you comparing things to Nazis? Do you realise just how ridiculous that looks?


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> We tried doing that in Canada with Natives. Instead of getting a head start from the free education/college. Most of them continue to abuse the system and milk it for everything they can get while doing nothing to better themselves by just getting drunk and pretty much treating their Childern like crap and then the cycle continues.
> 
> Why are you comparing things to Nazis? Do you realise just how ridiculous that looks?


A. That "free education" is an underfunded mess. What you have said is a gross generalization that goes into the territory of you yourself being a bigot.
www.jobpostings.ca: The Problem with Aboriginal Education in Canada and what you can do about it
B. The alt right thing was a joke.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> That's a government unfucking mistakes on behalf of its people, not reparations for wrongs against a particular group of people (because believe it or not, specific groups of people weren't all affected by these changes).
> -
> Like every good lie told, this quote holds a semblance of truth, which I highlighted; there is a moral responsibility of people to take care of each other.
> -
> ...



A government represents all individuals within a country collectively. Our government failed to prevent and at times encouraged and aided discriminatory practices that were levied against specific ethnic groups, so we inherit that responsibility as US citizens. If we want to start holding individuals and specific companies responsible in addition to the government for specific wrongs we will be here for a while, because that is going to be one hell of a case load. Furthermore, many of those directly responsible through their policy decisions and actions are now dead, leaving those harmed by their actions to fend for themselves. The wealth that could be penalized to make individual reparations has long since been scattered to the winds in many cases, though in others some still cling to their hoard. 

I'm trying to phrase things outside of my communist moral framework and within the context of a capitalist society. My moral argument would be that we should abolish capital altogether and work to establish availability of education and resources for all as they need it, and everyone needs a good education. Resources should be dedicated where they are needed most and currently lacking by no other metric than demand and availability. We should alleviate the results of all oppression and seek an end to oppression where it still rears its ugly head, undertaking that struggle together as one class of humanity united.


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## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> This is why I don't take Pride very seriously; it forces those within it to gatekeep, because they want to be "inclusive" but also be for specific people.  You can't have both.  If they attempt to do the former they will simply continue growing the LGBT larger and larger until it becomes a parody of itself and reduces to the very individual themselves.  If they attempt to go with the latter, then gatekeeping is necessary and thus you begin taking the Pride too far.


This, it’s the same shit Susan B Anthony and her ilk did during the suffragist movement.  Thanks to them, it took another 50 years for black women to be able to vote.  All this is doing is drawing lines of separation between minorities.  Like I’ve said, we can’t act like we’re better than everyone else just because we’re queer.  

Also gonna throw this in there, I’m not singling out Pride for stupid ass shenanigans.  College kids get drunk and act like a bunch of hormone ridden Neanderthals because their team won.  LGBT people do it because of the big ghey.  I wish at the very least people would stop using it as justification for public intoxication and property damage.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm going to duck out of this one and think about my own arguments and what has been argued against them and reconcile my own ish. I probably shouldn't be trying to have a political discussion 6+ hours past when I probably should have gone to bed tbh.


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## Oblique Lynx (Jun 23, 2018)

Felix Bernard said:


> LGBT community an aura of "in your face"


Ya know, this is pretty well why I massively dislike pride month. It seems like everywhere is just plastered with the stuff during the month. Bigger reason than the marches that I always found so gaudy and obnoxious


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

OH! Last point, I do think it is somewhat shitty that a lot of companies try to use pride month as a PR stunt, especially if they have issues with discrimination themselves.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> OH! Last point, I do think it is somewhat shitty that a lot of companies try to use pride month as a PR stunt, especially if they have issues with discrimination themselves.


Yup.  All of my this.  They weren’t around when we needed them most.  It’s almost never done out of genuine support and only seems to stir shit with the right wing conservatives.  If the companies really cared, their actions would reflect it, not just slapping a rainbow on their logo for a month.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

Take February for example.  Black History Month centers around just that, black history.  And I think that’s awesome.  Especially for a minority group that had most of their history erased by white aristocrats and politicians, it’s important to remember the reason for the season.  That’s what I wish would happen during Pride month.  I wish we could just focus on points like Harvey Milk, Matthew Shepherd, and the Stonewall marches.  They deserve better than to have their memories blurred by alcohol fueled rainbow romps throughout cities.


----------



## Oblique Lynx (Jun 23, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Take February for example.  Black History Month centers around just that, black history.  And I think that’s awesome.  Especially for a minority group that had most of their history erased by white aristocrats and politicians, it’s important to remember the reason for the season.  That’s what I wish would happen during Pride month.  I wish we could just focus on points like Harvey Milk, Matthew Shepherd, and the Stonewall marches.  They deserve better than to have their memories blurred by alcohol fueled rainbow romps throughout cities.


Now this is something I can wholely agree with. Black History month, Mi'kmaq Heritage month; important history but it's not overtly plastered everywhere


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Canada pulls the same bullshit with Natives that we do with ours


I can't say I've noticed much about being treated differently or worse. If anything, we're given a lot of stuff and acknowledgement. The only real mistreatment is from some of the reserves out west.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


> Now this is something I can wholely agree with. Black History month, Mi'kmaq Heritage month; important history but it's not overtly plastered everywhere


Long story short, we got cocky.  No pun intended.


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> OH! Last point, I do think it is somewhat shitty that a lot of companies try to use pride month as a PR stunt, especially if they have issues with discrimination themselves.


That and they want to make money regardless of the actual morals behind it. Besides making as money of course. XD


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## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 23, 2018)

I want to go to a pride festival. Not to partake in it, but to listen to the preachers. Not the aggressive and hell-bent ones, but the actual good ones that are out there.

I’ve done a lot of participation with a strictly non-violent anti-abortion group, so I’ve seen a lot of good and a lot of bad.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You didn't pay attention to the thing you quoted.


So because I don't feel your reasoning is sound, I didn't read it carefully enough? Please. I read it, you're making assumptions that don't hold, without those assumptions your logic falls apart. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> "Queer" was invented in order to address the problem of identities spiraling out of control and LGBT becoming a self-parody of endless identities. Yet the term itself is so vague that it contains the same problem with it; what is a "Queer" except an end-all term for those who "do not fit with the norm"? It essentially proves my point; either it needs to be gatekept in order to continue to exist, or it becomes so inclusive that it essentially becomes meaningless.


So this is the week of cishet men rewriting queer history, is it? :V Pray tell when you think "queer" was invented, then. It'll be interesting to hear. 

The thing about this "endless identities" thing you seem to think is a problem, is that the vast majority of them are just labels on things that queer folks have been experiencing for a long time. They allow people to better describe their experiences, patterns of attraction, or what have you. There is a clear pattern for the types of identities that fall under the queer umbrella, and that some of the identities that get included might be more borderline than others doesn't invalidate them. If you permit people self-identification, and accept that self-identification, there is no need for gatekeeping because _people whose identities don't fall under the queer umbrella don't have any interest in identifying as queer. _Pride/queer gatekeeping typically will strike first at straight-passing individuals, regardless of sexuality, which ends up hitting bi, ace, and nonbinary individuals (as well as people still in the closet) disproportionately hard.

(If you will, you can compare the "endless identities" to the way academia buds off into more precise sub-fields - quantum physics is still ultimately physics, is still ultimately part of the natural sciences. By introducing quantum physics as a field, you didn't dilute natural sciences or make them meaninglessly inclusive - you just coined a more precise description/label for a subset of the physics being studied.)



ResolutionBlaze said:


> But if LGBT isn't fighting for normality, what are they fighting for? LGBT is, as ironic as it sounds, having an identity crisis. Is it fighting for normality? Is it fighting for special treatment? Because, at least what it seems to me, if you're not fighting to be normal you're fighting to be recognized and treated differently but only if that treatment is positive.


Not all aspects of QUILTBAG culture/community is about fighting. Absolutely, to receive equal treatment is an important goal. But you'll also have aspects that are about mutual support. About sharing experiences and helping others get through something you already came out the other side of. Having queer identities be accepted in society may reduce the need for this support somewhat, but it doesn't eliminate it.


----------



## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A. That "free education" is an underfunded mess. What you have said is a gross generalization that goes into the territory of you yourself being a bigot.
> www.jobpostings.ca: The Problem with Aboriginal Education in Canada and what you can do about it
> B. The alt right thing was a joke.
> 
> ...


No, I'm pretty sure you're the one being a bigot in this situation.
I'm not saying anything out of intolerance. You need to come over here and be around it to understand I guess...
www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca: Indigenous peoples

Your news articles holds little weight, please do some research before telling someone about their own country.


----------



## Summer (Jun 23, 2018)

Another thought along these same lines. Can a person be proud of an attribute that is not an accomplishment or  a person does not have control over?. If a person doesn't have control over sexual orientation or race, how can a person be proud over these attributes?.


----------



## Saiko (Jun 23, 2018)

Summer said:


> Another thought along these same lines. Can a person be proud of an attribute that is not an accomplishment or  a person does not have control over?. If a person doesn't have control over sexual orientation or race, how can a person be proud over these attributes?.


We’ve answered this multiple times in multiple threads. The term “gay pride” is a rejection of shame and silence. It’s not pride in the sense of being proud of an accomplishment.


----------



## Troj (Jun 23, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> The thing about this "endless identities" thing you seem to think is a problem, is that the vast majority of them are just labels on things that queer folks have been experiencing for a long time. They allow people to better describe their experiences, patterns of attraction, or what have you. There is a clear pattern for the types of identities that fall under the queer umbrella, and that some of the identities that get included might be more borderline than others doesn't invalidate them. If you permit people self-identification, and accept that self-identification, there is no need for gatekeeping because _people whose identities don't fall under the queer umbrella don't have any interest in identifying as queer. _Pride/queer gatekeeping typically will strike first at straight-passing individuals, regardless of sexuality, which ends up hitting bi, ace, and nonbinary individuals (as well as people still in the closet) disproportionately hard.
> 
> (If you will, you can compare the "endless identities" to the way academia buds off into more precise sub-fields - quantum physics is still ultimately physics, is still ultimately part of the natural sciences. By introducing quantum physics as a field, you didn't dilute natural sciences or make them meaninglessly inclusive - you just coined a more precise description/label for a subset of the physics being studied.)



Well, and there are a few labels and identities that I personally find puzzling, pointless, or extraneous. Do I go around haranguing people who subscribe to those labels? Not unless they harangue me first!

If a term truly isn't useful or helpful, then my assumption is that it'll eventually fall out of popular usage, so the "problem" will solve itself.

In the meantime, the easiest and best approach is to just live and let live, in my estimation. Even if somebody's being a silly grandstanding snowflake from your point of view, unless they're actively harassing or bothering you or others, it's often best to just let 'em get it out of their system.




quoting_mungo said:


> Not all aspects of QUILTBAG culture/community is about fighting. Absolutely, to receive equal treatment is an important goal. But you'll also have aspects that are about mutual support. About sharing experiences and helping others get through something you already came out the other side of. Having queer identities be accepted in society may reduce the need for this support somewhat, but it doesn't eliminate it.



As the saying goes, "normal" is a setting on an air conditioner! 

At the end of the day, most LGBTQ people want to enjoy the same rights, opportunities, and basic respect as everyone else without having to conceal, compromise or apologize for things that don't warrant an apology to begin with.

Sometimes people argue amongst themselves or fight over petty shit, but that's human nature.



WithMyBearHands said:


> Yup. All of my this. They weren’t around when we needed them most. It’s almost never done out of genuine support and only seems to stir shit with the right wing conservatives. If the companies really cared, their actions would reflect it, not just slapping a rainbow on their logo for a month.



Reminds me of that Republican politician who flirted with the fandom for the day and picked a fursona. Don't buy the superficial hype!


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

Troj said:


> Reminds me of that Republican politician who flirted with the fandom for the day and picked a fursona. Don't buy the superficial hype!


WAIT WHAT WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN


----------



## Oblique Lynx (Jun 23, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> WAIT WHAT WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


>


I’m fucking crying rn whyyyyyyyyyy

As if people needed a reason to hate furries even more


----------



## Simo (Jun 23, 2018)

Geez, what a lot of angry, negative threads, these days. As if all the bitching about how bad 'pride month" is on the other thread wasn't enough, now even more animosity.

And if straight folks wanna have a parade, have one: do the work, get the permits, and do it; it's a free country; I'm so sick of this, "Well, _straight people don't get a special day_ BS". If anyone is so hurt that they don't, *make one*, don't just bitch about it, on some furry site.


----------



## Oblique Lynx (Jun 23, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I’m fucking crying rn whyyyyyyyyyy
> 
> As if people needed a reason to hate furries even more


She actually took it quite well


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> There really is no default norm where I live so maybe it's different. ( Canada is multicultural. )
> 
> Also I do believe that white people should celebrate themselves, just as much as any other kind of people.
> 
> ...



I think people should be proud of who they are. Being proud of being Italian is a lot more accurate than white pride though. If you organized a white pride event, you'd mostly have skinheads and white supremacists show up.


----------



## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I think people should be proud of who they are. Being proud of being Italian is a lot more accurate than white pride though. If you organized a white pride event, you'd mostly have skinheads and white supremacists show up.


There's bad people in every group. Being in this fandom should have taught you at least that much.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Jun 23, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


> She actually took it quite well


I just legit wonder why.  I mean, even if she is actually a furry, that’s a hobby and should stay out of your professional life (unless it is your professional life, like being a suitmaker or artist) and I can’t think of any other reason why that would be a smart idea.  Even without the stigma


----------



## Ginza (Jun 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Yeah... As the fandom's rank one furfag, I don't get why we have gay pride. It's no one's business *what* I like to fuck.



*thinking*


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> So because I don't feel your reasoning is sound, I didn't read it carefully enough? Please. I read it, you're making assumptions that don't hold, without those assumptions your logic falls apart.



It's funny you say my logic is unsound considering you've proven my point twice now.


quoting_mungo said:


> The thing about this "endless identities" thing you seem to think is a problem, is that the vast majority of them are just labels on things that queer folks have been experiencing for a long time.



What evidence do you have that this has been an occurring issue for a long time?  We can make cases for homosexuality, lesbianism, transgenderism, and bisexuality.  I expect the same sort of history for being queer.  Something that predates LGBT, and something that was a legitimate problem.
-
If not, then I am a bit more confident to say that this has only been an issue recently when the prospect of self-identification became a thing that people legitimately took seriously.


quoting_mungo said:


> They allow people to better describe their experiences, _*patterns of attraction*_, or what have you. There is a clear pattern for the types of identities that fall under the queer umbrella, and that some of the identities that get included might be more borderline than others doesn't invalidate them. If you permit people self-identification, and accept that self-identification, there is no need for gatekeeping because _people whose identities don't fall under the queer umbrella don't have any interest in identifying as queer. _Pride/queer gatekeeping typically will strike first at straight-passing individuals, regardless of sexuality, which ends up hitting bi, ace, and nonbinary individuals (as well as people still in the closet) disproportionately hard.


What patterns of attraction exist that has not already been well documented?  Bi, homo, lesbian, pan?  What about gender?  There's male, female, MTF, FTM, gender fluid, agender...  So again I ask what exactly constitutes as queer?  It's an excuse to ascribe to this idea of gender/sexual chaos; where any and all self-proclaimed identities are legitimate no matter how absurd they are or how little they deviate from what is already documented.
-
It would be one thing if queer were just about people who have not yet discovered exactly what they're attracted to or what gender they are; in that case, I would probably be considered queer.  But the term is, again, so vague, that a good proportion of people who have any doubts about their sexual identity (which occurs so frequently its not even an abnormal thing) or gender identity (which many queers I have talked to already fit comfortably within an already documented gender category except for maybe one or two differences which, again, isn't abnormal) gets tossed into that category.  Thus you've accepted the ultimatum I spoke about earlier; let the LGBT continue to grow, and throw them all under a single term.  That was the alternative to gatekeeping.  So where was my logic unsound again?


quoting_mungo said:


> Not all aspects of QUILTBAG culture/community is about fighting. Absolutely, to receive equal treatment is an important goal. But you'll also have aspects that are about mutual support. About sharing experiences and helping others get through something you already came out the other side of. Having queer identities be accepted in society may reduce the need for this support somewhat, but it doesn't eliminate it.



How exactly do you propose getting "accepted into society"?
-
See, whenever I ask this question, the answers vary; they either can't answer, or they give something vague like, "When people stop killing us" or something.  I'm curious to see what your goals are here since the LGBT can't seem to make up its mind on it.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

Simo said:


> Geez, what a lot of angry, negative threads, these days. As if all the bitching about how bad 'pride month" is on the other thread wasn't enough, now even more animosity.
> 
> And if straight folks wanna have a parade, have one: do the work, get the permits, and do it; it's a free country; I'm so sick of this, "Well, _straight people don't get a special day_ BS". If anyone is so hurt that they don't, *make one*, don't just bitch about it, on some furry site.


Except whenever someone does talk about Straight Pride, it's assumed that it's a "response" or "attack" on LGBT.  So this argument doesn't bode well when any attempt at being proud of Straightness or Cisness is met with hostility.
Straight pride - Wikipedia


----------



## Oblique Lynx (Jun 23, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Except whenever someone does talk about Straight Pride, it's assumed that it's a "response" or "attack" on LGBT.  So this argument doesn't bode well when any attempt at being proud of Straightness or Cisness is met with hostility.
> Straight pride - Wikipedia


This is rather common, even for other aspects of people too. Kinda strange


----------



## quoting_mungo (Jun 23, 2018)

Troj said:


> At the end of the day, most LGBTQ people want to enjoy the same rights, opportunities, and basic respect as everyone else without having to conceal, compromise or apologize for things that don't warrant an apology to begin with.


This, yes. As well as just... if you grew up expecting to fall in love with someone of the opposite sex (I personally, at least, don't have a problem with the statistically most likely sexuality being a "default assumption in absence of evidence indicating otherwise" thing, as long as you're prepared to correct that default assumption if it turns out to be wrong), and develop a crush on your same-sex friend? That can be confusing. You're allowed to be confused. Having a support group around that's experienced the same thing can make it easier to handle. Far as I'm concerned this is a function that QUILTBAG groups will likely continue to serve for a long time even should all bigotry magically disappear tomorrow.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> What evidence do you have that this has been an occurring issue for a long time? We can make cases for homosexuality, lesbianism, transgenderism, and bisexuality. I expect the same sort of history for being queer. Something that predates LGBT, and something that was a legitimate problem.
> -
> If not, then I am a bit more confident to say that this has only been an issue recently when the prospect of self-identification became a thing that people legitimately took seriously.


I'm honestly not sure what you're asking. You seem to be treating "queer" as separate from LGBT+. It is, in current accepted usage, an umbrella term. Either way, you have gender-nonconforming historical figures that don't appear to be trans in a binary sense, you have historical figures that quite likely were on the ace spectrum, and so on. Not sure what you mean by it needing to be "a legitimate problem." 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> What patterns of attraction exist that has not already been well documented? Bi, homo, lesbian, pan? What about gender? There's male, female, MTF, FTM, gender fluid, agender... So again I ask what exactly constitutes as queer? It's an excuse to ascribe to this idea of gender/sexual chaos; where any and all self-proclaimed identities are legitimate no matter how absurd they are or how little they deviate from what is already documented.


"What thing exists that hasn't been documented yet?" is a silly question. I know there's been some particle or something that some physicist predicted before it was actually discovered, but on the whole you don't ask what has yet not been described. In the case of sexuality and gender identity, what may seem to you like a minuscule deviation from a previously established term may be a major point of difference for the individual. Realistically, the primary reason I identify as bisexual is probably my age - if I'd been ten years younger I'd probably be calling myself pan instead. My sexuality's the same, the underlying reasoning is the same, and the timing was just such that the label I was exposed to when I felt the need to embrace a label was bi. (I use "bi" in a very inclusive sense; that's what it means to me, when I use it to describe my own sexuality.) For other people, calling themselves pan or bi is a major point of distinction that reflects ideological differentiation. In their case, using the wrong one would be misrepresenting their sexuality. So for me the difference is practically nil, but I respect that it is not for those people, and let them dictate what label they wish to put on their sexuality.

I used to half-joke that my gender identity was "tomboy", starting somewhere around my mid-late teens. I was 32 when I realized that "genderqueer" actually fit my experiences pretty solidly. The experiences weren't new, but I didn't have the vocabulary to articulate them when I went through puberty, and was sitting on some significant inertia that discouraged reidentification after that. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Thus you've accepted the ultimatum I spoke about earlier; let the LGBT continue to grow, and throw them all under a single term. That was the alternative to gatekeeping. So where was my logic unsound again?


That sounds like a completely different argument from the one you were making to me. Your argument was that whatever umbrella term is used would _become meaningless_ due to the number of identities that fit under it. I find that conclusion to be somewhere between ludicrous and foolish. If you feel your identity fits under the QUILTBAG/queer umbrella, I'm happy to let you sit there. If you don't, I'm not going to force you in. The number of people under the umbrella, or the diversity between them, doesn't erode it.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> How exactly do you propose getting "accepted into society"?


I said "accepted _in_ society", which is a significant difference. In no way am I proposing that QUILTBAG individuals currently live apart in some kind of underground shadow communities waiting to get invited to the straight folks' world.

I can't suggest method for accomplishing this, beyond the whole having conversations with kids and talking about being kind and compassionate and that love takes many forms to them. But given your chaser I suspect what you wanted to ask was what I felt getting accepted in society entailed. 

There's the legal aspect, which is about things like having the same forms of partnership available to same-sex and opposite-sex couples. Personally I would love to see provisions made for officiating unions of more than two people as well, but I realize that realistically that's a good ways off. It also means having the same tax and insurance options available (as applicable), being able to visit a hospitalized loved one without having to jump through a bunch of extra hoops, and so on.

There's the social aspect, which is about things like same-sex couples being able to do anything in public that an opposite-sex couple can do, and get the same reactions. Being able to be confident that you'll get the same general sort of reaction if you have to correct your coworker to say "actually, my partner is John, not Joan" as if you were saying "Jane, not Joan", and getting a respectful apology if you correct someone who accidentally misgenders you. As I mentioned to Troj above I don't particularly mind default-assumption thinking as long as it's coupled with readiness to correct any errors made.

In between the two you have matters of non-government policy. A movie should not get a higher rating if a same-sex couple kisses on screen than if an opposite-sex couple does. A woman needs to be able to enter the women's restroom regardless of whether she was assigned female at birth. (Preferably restrooms should be unisex which is a lot more common over here than in the US.) 

I'm sure I've left a lot more out; it's pretty much impossible to make a comprehensive list of things that would signify that queer identities were fully accepted in society. What I mentioned should at least give a general idea.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Jun 23, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> "What thing exists that hasn't been documented yet?" is a silly question. I know there's been some particle or something that some physicist predicted before it was actually discovered, but on the whole you don't ask what has yet not been described. In the case of sexuality and gender identity, what may seem to you like a minuscule deviation from a previously established term may be a major point of difference for the individual. Realistically, the primary reason I identify as bisexual is probably my age - if I'd been ten years younger I'd probably be calling myself pan instead. My sexuality's the same, the underlying reasoning is the same, and the timing was just such that the label I was exposed to when I felt the need to embrace a label was bi. (I use "bi" in a very inclusive sense; that's what it means to me, when I use it to describe my own sexuality.) For other people, calling themselves pan or bi is a major point of distinction that reflects ideological differentiation. In their case, using the wrong one would be misrepresenting their sexuality. So for me the difference is practically nil, but I respect that it is not for those people, and let them dictate what label they wish to put on their sexuality.
> 
> I used to half-joke that my gender identity was "tomboy", starting somewhere around my mid-late teens. I was 32 when I realized that "genderqueer" actually fit my experiences pretty solidly. The experiences weren't new, but I didn't have the vocabulary to articulate them when I went through puberty, and was sitting on some significant inertia that discouraged reidentification after that.


This is a very wordy way of avoiding the question entirely.  You haven't proven that any of the examples you've given are worthy of being documented as separate.
-
So I'll ask again and reword it; what traits of queer identities aren't already accepted and documented in our current knowledge of gender and sexuality?


quoting_mungo said:


> There's the social aspect, which is about things like same-sex couples being able to do anything in public that an opposite-sex couple can do, and get the same reactions. Being able to be confident that you'll get the same general sort of reaction if you have to correct your coworker to say "actually, my partner is John, not Joan" as if you were saying "Jane, not Joan", and getting a respectful apology if you correct someone who accidentally misgenders you. As I mentioned to Troj above I don't particularly mind default-assumption thinking as long as it's coupled with readiness to correct any errors made.


I don't recall opposite-sex couples ever getting away with much stuff in public.  I don't often see opposite-sex couples holding hands often anymore.  I have almost never seen kissing.  It's already pretty stigmatized to show an excessive amount of affection in public so what exactly can same-sex couples not do that opposite-sex couples are capable of?  It seems to me that it is mostly a personal problem rather than a social one.
-
If the goal here is to enact social changes, then what people should be doing is doing any of these things an opposite-sex couple would be able to do REGARDLESS of whether people give the same reactions.  Waiting around for people to change their minds is not gonna happen.


quoting_mungo said:


> A woman needs to be able to enter the women's restroom regardless of whether she was assigned female at birth. (Preferably restrooms should be unisex which is a lot more common over here than in the US.)
> 
> I'm sure I've left a lot more out; *it's pretty much impossible to make a comprehensive list of things that would signify that queer identities were fully accepted in society*. What I mentioned should at least give a general idea.




So how much longer will demands keep flowing in from LGBTQ?  How long until we start saying enough is enough?  How many special privileges, changes, and alterations need to be met?  Can you give me something solid?  This is exactly what I mean when the LGBT has no idea what it wants.  These demands are the same vague demands that we've been getting for almost ten years now.
-
What difference does a bathroom make for the "oppression of LGBT people"?  Have we run out of issues for you to have legitimate causes against?  How much minuscule forms of "oppression" are you going to oppose?  Because there are plenty among the LGBT who want to destroy the concept of gender altogether in societies.  I've spoken to those people.  So instead of just grabbing demands out of a magic hat how about some cohesive ideas on combating actual oppression?  This is the same issue that Feminism is having; it's run out of genuine oppression to combat against that it's inventing "micro-oppression" theories.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Jun 23, 2018)

To be honest, I have never had the chance to celebrate Pride Month. But I still have a viewpoint I would like to share.

I'm glad to be gay in this period of time and in the country I live. In my country, gays are no longer considered mentally ill or hunted down for sport like before. In most states we are allowed to get married and have families. There are many American programs created that promote tolerance and acceptance, and many of our communities are no longer welcoming bigotry towards gays like they used to. Where I live, we have come a long way, and we should be thankful for that. 

But it's not the same everywhere

There are countries in the Middle East and other parts of the world where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by torture and death. Gays are hunted down by mobs and dragged through the streets to be killed. They are forced to hide themselves in constant fear and paranoia. I see what happens to those people and I feel horrible. They don't have the ability to live their lives peacefully and free of threats. They still face the same hatred and persecution that gays used to face here in America. They aren't able to show or express themselves like we can. It's sad.

I'm glad I can celebrate Pride Month where I live, and I will celebrate it, but not to be flamboyant or in someones face, but rather show the world that there are places were people like me are still not free or safe. I wan't to show those parts of the world that gays are not monsters, but human beings, who deserve love and respect. That's what Pride Month means to me.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> No, I'm pretty sure you're the one being a bigot in this situation.
> I'm not saying anything out of intolerance. You need to come over here and be around it to understand I guess...
> www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca: Indigenous peoples
> 
> Your news articles holds little weight, please do some research before telling someone about their own country.


www.ictinc.ca: What is the root cause of Aboriginal education issues

www.google.com: First Nations education a cash-strapped 'non-system,' bureaucrats tell minister | CBC News

www.google.com: Federal spending falls short for students on reserves, budget watchdog says

www.csc-scc.gc.ca: Demographic Overview of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada and Aboriginal Offenders in Federal Corrections

I'll throw this one in for good measure.
https://www.google.com/amp/national...rmer-found-not-guilty-in-indigenous-death/amp

I love how people feel that they get to wash their hands of shit their government has done, ignore socioeconomic factors that their country manufactured, and just call an entire ethnicity lazy because of programs to rectify those prior policies and manufactured disadvantages.

www.merriam-webster.com: Definition of BIGOT

So please go thouroughly fuck yourself and your delusions of equality and reverse bigotry.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> We tried doing that in Canada with Natives. Instead of getting a head start from the free education/college. Most of them continue to abuse the system and milk it for everything they can get while doing nothing to better themselves by just getting drunk and pretty much treating their Childern like crap and then the cycle continues.
> 
> Why are you comparing things to Nazis? Do you realise just how ridiculous that looks?



Lol. Both America and Canada ultimately still treat Native Americans like shit. The "they just live off government money and don't do anything" is an incredibly racist and outmoded thing to say, and reveals a significant lack of research and actual knowledge about these people.


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## Yakamaru (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> www.ictinc.ca: What is the root cause of Aboriginal education issues
> 
> www.google.com: First Nations education a cash-strapped 'non-system,' bureaucrats tell minister | CBC News
> 
> ...


You are not responsible for what your government does. By that logic and reasoning I can blame *you* for the shit your government's done. What they've done in the past too, considering your recent posts on these forums. It's like blaming a child for the sins of the father, despite the child have done nothing wrong. That is not how any of this works. This isn't the Middle-Ages, mate. 

I would recommend you stop thinking in groups and collectives. It'll do you a lot better than trying collective punishment. 



BahgDaddy said:


> Lol. Both America and Canada ultimately still treat Native Americans like shit. The "they just live off government money and don't do anything" is an incredibly racist and outmoded thing to say, and reveals a significant lack of research and actual knowledge about these people.


You know.. There's always the idea of showing statistics instead of calling someone a racist..


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> www.ictinc.ca: What is the root cause of Aboriginal education issues
> 
> www.google.com: First Nations education a cash-strapped 'non-system,' bureaucrats tell minister | CBC News
> 
> ...


Right. And I'm sure my friends who are Natives, who wanted to become something in life - are just lying to my face about their own people.
Honestly, just wow. Good job looking like an asshole.


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Lol. Both America and Canada ultimately still treat Native Americans like shit. The "they just live off government money and don't do anything" is an incredibly racist and outmoded thing to say, and reveals a significant lack of research and actual knowledge about these people.



Except I have friends who are Native, that say this about their own people.
I guess it's easier to just slap the rasict card on someone if you don't understand where they are coming from though.


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## Some Moron (Jun 23, 2018)

People still do that? Hasn't homophobia died out already?


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> Except I have friends who are Native, that say this about their own people.
> I guess it's easier to just slap the rasict card on someone if you don't understand where they are coming from though.


"I have a black friend..."
Anecdote means shit.

Also, I love how everyone here who wants collective security, judges immigrants collectively, and makes collective statements about ethnic groups, but the second that shit is turned on its head you get on your individualism pedestal. You want your government to get a pass to be shitty as your collective representative, but don't want it held responsible or to have that collective responsibility as citizens of that government. You want all the collective benefits of being under that social contract, and social programs, but none of the responsibility that comes with it. If you want to be truly individual than renounce and abolish your government, or at least dismantle all of its programs, including the military.

The "sins of their father..." logic might be true, but the descendants of the opressed are still paying for the sins of YOUR fathers. Their economies and society are in shambles, and they still face persecution at the hands of our and your governments. Representative governments with elected officials that we voted for. So yes, we do in fact have continued culpibilcul in this bullshit.
social contract theory - Google Search


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> "I have a black friend..."
> Anecdote means shit.
> 
> Also, I love how everyone here who wants collective security, judges immigrants collectively, and makes collective statements about ethnic groups, but the second that shit is turned on its head you get on your individualism pedestal. You want your government to get a pass to be shitty as your collective representative, but don't want it held responsible or to have that collective responsibility as citizens of that government. You want all the collective benefits of being under that social contract, and social programs, but none of the responsibility that comes with it. If you want to be truly individual than renounce and abolish your government, or at least dismantle all of its programs, including the military.
> ...


To be fair, I was only repeating what they have told me in warning to you guys doing the same thing because it does not help people in the long run, unless they themselves want to improve and get a head start.
Also... my Fathers.... My ancestors had literally nothing to do with what happened in the states or in Canada.  I was born in Canada but my parents were raised on the east side of the world.... Not going to say where because honestly it is none of your business.

As for the government, our prime minister is an idiot but he only cares about how Toronto looks, because that's where he is. The government for the province I am in are doing their best for all kinds of people. I might have worded that weirdly... But they do genuinely care and want to help.


My advice to you though, is before you say anything about another person who lives in a different place then you... At least visit the place and talk to people who live there so that you can get an understanding of why they are saying the things that they say. If you cannot do that, then at least listen to what they say with an open mind.
I am not one to say things out of hate for other people.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> To be fair, I was only repeating what they have told me in warning to you guys doing the same thing because it does not help people in the long run, unless they themselves want to improve and get a head start.
> Also... my Fathers.... My ancestors had literally nothing to do with what happened in the states or in Canada.  I was born in Canada but my parents were raised on the east side of the world.... Not going to say where because honestly it is none of your business.
> 
> As for the government, our prime minister is an idiot but he only cares about how Toronto looks, because that's where he is. The government for the province I am in are doing their best for all kinds of people. I might have worded that weirdly... But they do genuinely care and want to help.
> ...


So are you saying I have "not Canadian privilege" and therefore my argument is invalid? My argument based on Canada's own statistics? That's like telling someone they have white privilege for quoting Malcom X in regards to ending civil rights issues in the US.

Your parents consented to the social contract of Canada more thoroughly than those born there, and took on it's collective baggage in exchange for its collective protections and representation. The social contract of any government requires you to sacrifice some portion of your individuality in exchange for collective citizenship, and the rights and protections therein.

Autocorrect is killing me...


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## Yvvki (Jun 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> So are you saying I have "not Canadian privilege" and therefore my argument is invalid? My argument based on Canada's own statistics? That's like telling someone they have white privilege for quoting Malcom X in regards to ending civil rights issues in the US.
> 
> Your parents consented to the social contract of Canada more thoroughly than those born there, and took on it's collective baggage in exchange for its collective protections and representation. The social contract of any government requires you to sacrifice some portion of your individuality in exchange for collective citizenship, and the rights and protections therein.
> 
> Autocorrect is killing me...


You don't know anything about my parents. Please stop.

Wtf is Canadian privilege? You do not make arguments about another country, period. It's downright disrespectful to do so without actually being there or talking to the people. I'm sorry but CBC news is not exactly a source, just how the news in the states is utterly terrible. ( Or so I have heard. )

Sending me to sources that are over 10 years old is ridiculous as well.

Anyways this conversation is getting so off track to what it was meant to be about. You can PM me if you do want to talk about this, but I'm going to stop posting so that we can get back on track with the Pride Month conversation.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jun 23, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> You don't know anything about my parents. Please stop.
> 
> Wtf is Canadian privilege? You do not make arguments about another country, period. It's downright disrespectful to do so without actually being there or talking to the people. I'm sorry but CBC news is not exactly a source, just how the news in the states is utterly terrible. ( Or so I have heard. )
> 
> Sending me to sources that are over 10 years old is ridiculous as well.


I said "not Canadian" privilege. Not "canadian" privilege.

A common bullshit argument is you have x privilege and have never been their so have no argument. That is by definition a genetic fallacy.

Also, those news articles have links to reports in them.

mediabiasfactcheck.com: CBC News (Canadian Broadcasting) - Media Bias/Fact Check

From a source YOU posted www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca: Let’s talk on-reserve education: Survey report

www12.statcan.gc.ca: The educational attainment of Aboriginal peoples in Canada

You have a broad and generalized view of Native Canadaians based on heresay and ignorance, and react to evidence with a genetic falacy as a default response. Therefore, you are by definition a bigot.


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## quoting_mungo (Jun 24, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> So I'll ask again and reword it; what traits of queer identities aren't already accepted and documented in our current knowledge of gender and sexuality?


What you want to do is push the square peg into the rectangular hole. You're mad because the square peg says "I'm square!" when technically squares are a subset of rectangles. I am not a Queer Studies major, so I can't say for certain whether this is the full extent of it, and as I previously noted "what isn't yet documented?" is a flawed question anyway, but what I have been trying to say all along is that what you perceive as a sprawl of additional identities being added to the queer umbrella, is in reality more along the lines of finer categorization being added. You could just say genders are covered by "male/female/non-binary", and you'd be (probably?) technically correct, but enbies use the more specific labels they use for a reason. I don't identify as neuter/neutrois, because that doesn't describe my experience of my own gender identity. I have genderfluid and agender acquaintances who have chosen those labels for themselves because those are the ones they feel best describe their identities. They're still all non-binary identities, but you can't substitute one for the other.

But yes, the base traits of queer identities may already be largely in place. How they're expressed and combined is what makes different queer identities. That's a large part of why you should not gatekeep. Gatekeeping is saying "you didn't assemble the components of your non-standard sexuality/gender identity in a preapproved way, so you can't be here". That's re-marginalizing people and doesn't help anyone. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> I don't recall opposite-sex couples ever getting away with much stuff in public. I don't often see opposite-sex couples holding hands often anymore. I have almost never seen kissing. It's already pretty stigmatized to show an excessive amount of affection in public so what exactly can same-sex couples not do that opposite-sex couples are capable of? It seems to me that it is mostly a personal problem rather than a social one.


Right, America. :V 
Well, in less uptight areas than where you were apparently raised, hugs, hand-holding, cheek-pecking and reasonably tasteful kissing (like, not playing tonsil-hockey, but lip contact and maybe a brief slip of tongue) are socially acceptable for opposite-sex couples. How acceptable they're considered for same-sex couples varies widely. Even if we're going to accept your buttoned-up premise that they're not acceptable, the reaction should be on the same scale (if you'd roll your eyes at a boy and a girl making out in the park, but berate two guys or two girls doing the same, it's still a biased and unequal reaction).



ResolutionBlaze said:


> If the goal here is to enact social changes, then what people should be doing is doing any of these things an opposite-sex couple would be able to do REGARDLESS of whether people give the same reactions. Waiting around for people to change their minds is not gonna happen.


And that's one of the things Pride helps with - giving queer people the safety in numbers to do that. It's all fine and well to say people "should" not give two men shit for holding hands in public, but if doing so will land them in the hospital or the morgue it's obviously not a good idea to push people's reactions. Queer people need to be able to feel safe to show affection in public before you can reasonably put the burden on them to do so.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> So how much longer will demands keep flowing in from LGBTQ? How long until we start saying enough is enough? How many special privileges, changes, and alterations need to be met? Can you give me something solid? This is exactly what I mean when the LGBT has no idea what it wants. These demands are the same vague demands that we've been getting for almost ten years now.


To have the same rights and protections under law is not vague. To not have people discriminate against you because of sexuality and gender identity is not vague. To want to receive equal treatment is not vague. Enumerating every single point of inequality that exists would be a waste of everyone's time; the overarching principle is quite clear. There are no "special privileges" for being queer beyond, _maybe_, being welcome in queer spaces. And that's neither guaranteed (because gatekeeping and because cross-pollination with other movements) nor really a privilege in any useful meaning of the word.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> What difference does a bathroom make for the "oppression of LGBT people"? Have we run out of issues for you to have legitimate causes against? How much minuscule forms of "oppression" are you going to oppose? Because there are plenty among the LGBT who want to destroy the concept of gender altogether in societies. I've spoken to those people. So instead of just grabbing demands out of a magic hat how about some cohesive ideas on combating actual oppression? This is the same issue that Feminism is having; it's run out of genuine oppression to combat against that it's inventing "micro-oppression" theories.


If you do not see how forcing a trans* person to choose between outing themselves or breaking a (frankly awful and bigoted) law is a significant problem and not some kind of offense-hunting, you really need to work on your compassion and empathy. You take being able to use the men's room for granted. Would you be comfortable walking into the men's room in (convincing) drag? (That's still not a completely equivalent situation, as wearing drag and presenting as one's identified gender are different in character, but it's the closest you're likely to get as a cisgender male.) I say unisex bathrooms are a preferable solution because they cut out the frankly unnecessary gendering of bodily functions. Particularly as unisex bathrooms _also_ have the advantage that they don't force non-binary individuals who are not comfortable doing so to sort themselves into a binary in order to pee.

I'm not an activist, and I don't have relevant degrees to make informed suggestions about how to bring humanity closer to a goal of QUILTBAG acceptance/equality. What I intend to do is attempt to be a good role model and supportive adult in my professional role once I graduate. I may guide my boyfriend into joining a volunteer sex educator program when his Swedish gets better and live vicariously through him if I feel the need to do more.


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## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 24, 2018)

I still do think that same sex attraction is part of the fall. Though I’m the last to discriminate.


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## Deleted member 112695 (Jun 24, 2018)

Felix Bernard said:


> I still do think that same sex attraction is part of the fall. Though I’m the last to discriminate.



Back to what I posted awhile back.
forums.furaffinity.net: Furry Fandom, Christianity, and Sexuality


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 4, 2018)

I'm so sick of religion and religious people trying to interfere with other people's lives who don't give a shit about religion.


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## Oblique Lynx (Jul 4, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I'm so sick of religion and religious people trying to interfere with other people's lives who don't give a shit about religion.


Religion possibly shouldn't interfere with other's lives, but the opposite should be true as well then. People who don't care about religion shouldn't try to interfere with those whom practice religion


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 4, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


> Religion possibly shouldn't interfere with other's lives, but the opposite should be true as well then. People who don't care about religion shouldn't try to interfere with those whom practice religion


Remember the cake thingy? Yeah... I'm glad he won :V


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 4, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Remember the cake thingy? Yeah... I'm glad he won :V


Yeah we should just let people not serve black people as well since it's against my religion.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 4, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Yeah we should just let people not serve black people as well since it's against my religion.


There is a difference between racism and religion


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 4, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> There is a difference between racism and religion


Gay people are just like anyone else. And actually people did use the Bible to defend racist things like slavery. (Exodus 21: 20-21 ) If someone didn't serve me because I'm gay, I'd cause one hell of a scene.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 4, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Gay people are just like anyone else. And actually people did use the Bible to defend racist things like slavery. (Exodus 21: 20-21 ) If someone didn't serve me because I'm gay, I'd cause one hell of a scene.


This is exactly what @Oblique Lynx is talking about.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 4, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


> Religion possibly shouldn't interfere with other's lives, but the opposite should be true as well then. People who don't care about religion shouldn't try to interfere with those whom practice religion


How about once religious people stop discriminating against me I won't be so pushy back?


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 4, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> How about once religious people stop discriminating against me I won't be so pushy back?


How about this instead: Don't force people to do things they don't want.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jul 4, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> How about this instead: Don't force people to do things they don't want.


So what happens when your pharmacist refuses the medication needed to safely complete the abortion of a fetus that died naturally in-eutero? Or when a doctor or surgeon refuses to save the life of someone who is gay? Those are actual things that happen in this country btw.

And more;

Get denied any towing service after a breakdown in bumblefuck US.

Refused college application.

Refused healthcare by your employer for birth control. 

Ignored by police because you are Trans, and they assume you are a hooker. 

Unable to finance homes or businesses for "religious reasons", creating the same economic setup that created the "hood" in the first place. 

Refusal to sign marriage licenses applied for through a secular process.


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## Oblique Lynx (Jul 4, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> How about once religious people stop discriminating against me I won't be so pushy back?


Unfortunately some deeply held beliefs will do that.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> So what happens when your pharmacist refuses the medication needed to safely complete the abortion of a fetus that died naturally in-eutero? Or when a doctor or surgeon refuses to save the life of someone who is gay? Those are actual things that happen in this country btw.
> 
> And more;
> 
> ...


Something like healthcare then I can give you that. However, if it's a college with heavy religious beliefs then yes, that should be a-okay to do so.

For the rest, I see no problem refusing on the ground of religious beliefs.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 4, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


> Unfortunately some deeply held beliefs will do that.
> 
> Something like healthcare then I can give you that. However, if it's a college with heavy religious beliefs then yes, that should be a-okay to do so.
> 
> For the rest, I see no problem refusing on the ground of religious beliefs.


Oh yes I love letting people walk all over me because I'm gay. Please give me more. :/


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