# oblivion or morrowind



## ceacar99 (Jul 28, 2007)

wich game do you think is better?


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## TheGru (Jul 28, 2007)

Oblivion is my call because the gameplay is better, but morrowind had more to explore.


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## ceacar99 (Jul 28, 2007)

im leaning twards morrowind right now... stock morrowind has more to do, but also leveling actually means something in the game. eventually you can level up and be more powerfull then the average mob, in oblivion thats not true. they level with you the whole way and some classes actually get OUTLEVELED by a little.... hell i beat oblivion once as a level 3, in the game there was just no difference in how much power you had over your enemies at any level. got kinda lame.


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## ADF (Jul 28, 2007)

Morrowind has its bugs and areas that were improved on in Oblivion, but with the exception of graphics and voice acting, I consider Morrowind superior to Oblivion in every way.

There is more of... everything. More guilds, more quests, more items, more dialogue and more in many other area's. Morrowind let you go on 'adventures', not the hand holding quests in Oblivion. You had to figure stuff out yourself and follow written directions while navigating the landscape, not have a magical compass that points you to areas you would have no way of knowing existed. You didn't get prompts every 10 minutes telling you what to do and where to go, all you had was your journal as reference and your wits to guide you.

Sure it took longer to figure stuff out and there was people who wondered for hours in the cube quest. But when you figure it out and complete the quest; there is a sense of accomplishment that can never be acquired using a quest compass that treats you as a incompetent, you earned your reward instead of being tugged around by a leash until you acquired it.

There was also a far greater sense of choice and consequence. If you join the enemy of one guild and complete quests that hurt them, it makes sense that they would not want you climbing their ranks. But oh not in Oblivion, they cannot have players actually making choices! So they take the few guilds they haven't cut and design their quest lines to not interfere with each other. In Morrowind quests actually had multiple choices, do you report the thief in hiding or help them to acquire information? Do you convince a group of racists not to kill your informant, or lead him to safety with a sword drawn? Do you kill someone for their equipment, or leave them be in case they are involved in a later quest? That's right, Morrowinds quest NPCs weren't invincible until their involvement in a quest was dealt with. You kill them, you suffer the consequences.

Your class also meant something; if you are not a magic user then you cannot progress in rank at the mages guild, regardless of how well you serve them. There was no level 2 guild leaders, you either qualified for the position or you couldn't get it.

You where also not punished for being either a low or high level. Quest rewards and enemies do not change depending on your level; higher level enemies become unlocked but the enemies you have fought before do not get stronger. You will always get the best reward regardless of your level, if you are not strong enough to be ready for the item then you got your ass handed to you by the enemies. Managed to complete the quest at a low level? Then you deserve that reward, it was probably hard as hell.

Look... Morrowind was buggy, REALY buggy, plus the class balancing was much worse than in Oblivion. But it did allot of stuff right, it was a much more wholesome game than Oblivion because you didn't get everything handed to you on a silver platter while you can still become a god of destruction. With the right mods many of the games downfalls can be resolved, if they re released Morrowind with a new engine and fixed many of the problems in the game I would take it in a heartbeat over Oblivion. Unless you had Morrowind before Oblivion was even announced I can see that being hard to understand.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 28, 2007)

I'd say get both, and mod them out so you can have them the way you want.


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## Visimar (Jul 28, 2007)

I would actually say Morrowind, but I really, really, REALLY hate the thing where you swing a HONKIN' BIG HAMMER at some little scrib and it 'misses.'

So Oblivion it is.


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## ADF (Jul 28, 2007)

If enemies would perform dodge and parry animations when a miss roll occurs, I imagine less people would have a problem with it. It is just the weapon going through the enemy and not doing damage that puts people off.


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## Visimar (Jul 28, 2007)

Yeah, that would've made more sense then clearly hitting them dead-on and it does nothing whatsoever.


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## ceacar99 (Jul 28, 2007)

yknow back in the day....*takes a moment to remember "the day"* morrowind was my favorite. now im a person who BURNS through games, and there are very few games that i have actually gone back to. most i finish and im done with them if not forever for at least a year. morrowind was one of those where i could almost allways pick it up and play it again. i dont think ive ever tapped all that there is in that game. oblivion... well thats a different story. truth is that oblivion didnt capture my attention long enough to level to 50 and be the master of all the guilds and all that crap...

TRUE vampires, wearwolves who knows how many factions.... yeah morrowind had it all. including the ability to become a demi god if you so desired to unballence the game . some people even created mods wich had the npc's behaving a lot like oblivion npcs, as in having a schedual home and that sort of thing and almost allways locking up for the night. other mods even altered the combat system to be pretty much exactly like oblivions, the higher the skill level the damage instead of the higher the chance to hit and the damage. unfortuantely i actually like the morrowind system after reviewing oblivion for a while.... oblivion in my mind has looks, horses and pick up ability. one of morrowind's greatest failures is that the game was incredibly complex and difficult for some users to just pick up and enjoy.


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## Dr.Wilopolis (Jul 28, 2007)

Morrowind has my vote. 'nuff said.


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## Icarus (Jul 28, 2007)

They both have Argonians...
so I'm stumped.

(Argonian females = hawt)


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## yak (Jul 29, 2007)

Speaking of Argonians, 
I really dig the argonian voices in Oblivion. They're just so cool. I think i'm going to try and build my accent into the likes of that voice.

Oh, yeah, ontopic
Morrowind. They killed the game's exploratory atmosphere in Oblivion, which equals killing the entire game for me.


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## Silver R. Wolfe (Jul 29, 2007)

Morrowind;  Oblivion was just the cheap knock-off to please more mainstream audiences.


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## ADF (Jul 29, 2007)

Icarus said:
			
		

> They both have Argonians...
> so I'm stumped.
> 
> (Argonian females = hawt)


Morrowind argonians are more anthro like, Oblivions are retextured human bodies with body parts slaped on.

With the right better bodies mod, Morrowind argonians can look pretty cool ^.=.^ Granted, you cannot beat argonian lip sync in Oblivion.


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## Jakal (Jul 29, 2007)

I prefer oblivion. Morrowind did seem to complex. like you had to choose if you wanted short blades or long blades. I like how in oblivion that blunt and blade has all the different weapons compiled into one. I liked that. it reduced the complexity.

P.S. how did you guys find the werewolves???


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## ADF (Jul 29, 2007)

Many would call it dumbing down, and many did. I mean blunt axes? What were they thinking. Quite frankly I cannot perceive how having separate skills for swords and daggers is over complicated, but that is today's audience I suppose.

Lets take the enchantment system for example. In Morrowind it was skill based, item quality would affect the power of enchantments and you could weaken certain enchantments to improve the quality of others. You could have as many enchantments on a item as you wanted but they would become weaker to fit into the soul gem amount and item capacity. If you wanted a constant affect enchantment, or wanted a enchantment without training the skill, it would cost a fortune. You had either be a smooth talker, or a high ranking mage, or constant affect enchantments can easily cost 200,000+

In Oblivion most of this was discarded; you couldn't even customise your item enchantments, you could only add one affect and get what you were given. Item quality was removed so even rags could have the same enchantment as a silk robe, plus a item that takes up two slots would still be only worth one enchantment. If they kept the quality system they could get around this by upping the enchantment capacity of multiple slot items, but as we know they didn't do this. Since enchantments were deskilled, you didn't have to be a mage or rich to acquire them. All you had to do was complete a couple of quests that acquired no magical ability to be worthy of entering the arcane university and acquire access to the enchantment alter. Even after all this, sigial stones still had better enchantments than anything you can make at the university.

This is just 'one' example, one of many examples of how this game was dumbed down to make it painfully easy and unsatisfying. 

Oblivion may be less complicated; but it is too uncomplicated, as in idiot proof uncomplicated, uncomplicated to the point that it hurts the enjoyment of the game for many past fans of the series. Quite frankly the graphics, voices and lip sync are the only advantages in Oblivion. Everything else, is watered down and 'over' simplified, everything is less satisfying.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 29, 2007)

Too all their own, I supposed.

I enjoy oblivion a lot more than morrowind. Oh I liked morrowind, but oblivion is better to me 10fold. Know why?

Because it's exactly as you've said.


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## ceacar99 (Jul 29, 2007)

> Many would call it dumbing down, and many did. I mean blunt axes?



an axe is essentially a sharp mace, when using it against a human being you just have to focus on keeping the blade on the right side thats all(chopping other materials is a completely different matter however). what i had issue with in oblivion is that they made the axes do less then the plain blunt weapons, wich obviously is ludicrus when you think of an axe as a mace plus an edge(and in the case of a curved axe a blade with a semi point). because of its heavy end an axe was the best slashing/chopping weapon on the field in terms of ability to dish out damage at least lol.

the blades in oblvion, well i had some major issues with them. there was no such thing as a thrust in oblivion. daggers wich clearly were designed to be thrust into the gut of the enemy were swung just like a large longsword. they removed the clear advantage a dagger gets for sacraficing reach and defence, its complete utter blinding speed and ability to fly past enemy defences into their body. morrowind actually had an advantage for daggers. strikes per second and i had a few characters that actually used daggers all the way through. you wouldnt believe how frightening a silver or glass dagger with a 1 sec paralise enchantment on it is . even without that enchantment you could enchant the blade to dish out large ammounts of magica damage and because of the speed of the weapon you'll drain thier hp faster then the average competition....

also one of the things they dumned down in oblivion adf is that in enchanting you dont even need a good soul to make a constant enchantment. you just needed A soul. ive done mild enchantments with rats.... its pretty sad....

btw adf someone is working on making morrowind for the oblivion engine. however some of the classy things of morrowind will be lost in the conversion like the incredibly handy journal. i still detest not being able to look up references to something in oblivion. sometimes that makes it damn hard to find ANYTHING without the stupid compas or remind you of past hints in conversations and so on....


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## ADF (Jul 29, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Too all their own, I supposed.
> 
> I enjoy oblivion a lot more than morrowind. Oh I liked morrowind, but oblivion is better to me 10fold. Know why?
> 
> Because it's exactly as you've said.



Which just goes to show how much Oblivion was screwed over compared to its predecessors.

When someone dislikes the first 3 games from a series (speaking generally, not you); despite them being popular and best sellers, but then loves the 4th, you have to wonder what on earth they did to that 4th to make it appeal to that person. 

Oblivion has taken the series in a completely different direction, one that I can only describe as mainstream gaming. Pretty, short and dumb. What scares me is there are actually people who want these type of games, RPGs at that, can you imagine that? Role playing games with the depth and detail of a FPS... and people seeing that as a good thing!

If Oblivion is any indication, then action games with stats are the new RPG. If that's what the mainstream wants then let them have it, but quit stealing games from our market and converting them into yours. At this rate there won't be any real RPGs left for people like me, just Oblivion and Diablo clones...


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## Little_Dragon (Jul 29, 2007)

I skipped straight from _Daggerfall_ to _Oblivion_, so I can't really make a fair comparison.  I enjoyed _Oblivion_ immensely while it lasted, though.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 29, 2007)

I havn't played much of it as of late, but so far it's lasted me about 80 hours, and i've yet to really get into the main storyline (beat the mages and the gladiator storyline, with a tiny bit of side quests sprinkled on the side, I bet I could tack on another 10 if I didn't fast travel.)

So what if it's basically an RPG thats like an fps. It's fun as hell, but if you don't like it, just go play morrowind.

Besides, playing the actual games has to be better than "Spreading the word of how much this game sucks in each TES related thread".


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## garra (Jul 29, 2007)

You know you can simply mod Oblivion so it's more RPG-like? I've got like 30 mods installed, and well, it's fun 

Though I miss Morrowind's diversity :|


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## ADF (Jul 29, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> [snip]


Hey, I don't hang around this thread all day  I stop by every now and then and respond if needed. This thread is asking a question, Morrowind or Oblivion, you have to expect conflicting opinions.

Oblivion a fun game? I suppose that is subjective. If you are a long time fan of the series then the game is lacking as a Elder Scrolls title, but if you look at it for what it is then I imagine there is fun to be had. Just hard to do that with the expectations that comes with the game, it seriously failed in meeting the standards of the series.

The Elder Scrolls series are real time RPGs, they are not action games. They deal with character development, adventure and character skill. Oblivion went against what made the series and turned it into a over simplified twitch game, that may suit you just fine but excuse if a RPG fan expected a RPG from a long running RPG series. Oblivion really did blow people away, and not in a good way. Allot of people got banned from the official forum on release, Ex developers silenced, a few sites of interest censored for giving less than glorifying reviews. Bethesda literally booted their old fan base out of their land to make way for the more profitable mainstream gamers.

See the thing is I have played Morrowind, I have played it for years. It was time for a sequel, a sequel that will never arrive now that the series has changed the very basics of who it is designed for. What is one to do? Well obviously go play a different game, but which one? The market is changing, it is appealing to broader audiences to maximise the profitability of titles, there is no room for niche titles.

Most RPG series are either dead or dying in the wake of this new market; Elder Scrolls has been swallowed by it, Fallout is soon to follow, both Neverwinter Nights 2 and Gothic 3 are buggy resource hogs and haven't done well, Might and Magic have dropped their RPG series in exchange for action titles and Wizardry haven't released a game since 2001. 

So in the increasingly shrinking RPG market that is being replaced with dumbed down action variants what should a RPG fan go play? Seriously I want to know, I have nothing to look forward to in terms of RPGs. All the upcoming are either action orientated or a MMORPG.



			
				garra said:
			
		

> You know you can simply mod Oblivion so it's more RPG-like? I've got like 30 mods installed, and well, it's fun
> 
> Though I miss Morrowind's diversity :|


Mods can really only do so much; you cannot mod in better dialogue because of the voice acting, bring back removed skills and features, nor can you change how existing quests baby you through them due to their reliance on the quest compass.

Mods are great and I fully respect the people who work hard on them, but they are not a cure all.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 29, 2007)

Hey, they've sold well, they've gotten lots of good reviews, and the mass like them. If it gets them money to make more games that are even better, then by all means, throw some slice n' dice in my point n' click.


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## ADF (Jul 29, 2007)

By all means do, but don't take away what makes RPGs so appealing in the first place. If you want a RPG with more action then make one, but don't give a action game stats & quests and tell me it is a RPG.

I have never really put much stock in sale figures and reviews, some of the best selling and highest reviewed games in the industry are cut and paste sport titles that vary little from each other. Also by reading Oblivion reviews you would have never guessed how much it has changed compared to the previous game.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 30, 2007)

Usually sports titles are reviewed with average, to average high scores. I have yet to actually see one with a pretty much perfect game. Plus, pretty much everyone likes sports. Combine this with advertising and gaming goodness, they'll always sell alot.

But anyways, point of the matter is, some people like oblivion, some people don't. With every new game, you gain some, and you lose some. If they'd appeal to more people who are, like, say, group A, then group B does the same thing only with different meanings.

Just saying that while some would consider it a bump in the road, most consider it to be another golden star. In the end, if you have both games, you can take the good and the bad of both and just go enjoy these two great games.

Plus, it's more like an adventure game rather than an action game.


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## ceacar99 (Jul 30, 2007)

i think adf is upset at what he see's as a perversion of a near perfect system in his eyes.... and he doesnt want bethesda to go down the line of creating clone games like medal of honor or call of duty... 

adf, i think this is a issue that bethesda is gonna have in a lot of its newer games. an example is fallout 3 wich has skills cut, int no long matters for dialogue.... at this point im worried that they butchured my FAVORITE rpg serries of all fuckin time... and to think that at one point i was exited that "the bethesda gods" picked up fallout when nobody else would....

anyway i like oblivion. its a pretty good game. however the truth sit thatt i just dont think it lives up to the near god like glory of morrowind, lol.


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## Chi_Mangetsu (Jul 30, 2007)

Argh. The Grammar Nazi in me is /wrists. >_< Must...see...past...rage...

Ah.
Anyway, I'll just say this: Oblivion is the anti-social life. Thank God I stopped playing or I'd never have finished writing up that level 2 Dungeon for the D&D campaign I'm running. =3
*insert lawls*


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## InvaderPichu (Jul 30, 2007)

I've only played Morrowind, so I can't really say which is better. I really do enjoy Morrowind, though. Killing people in it, and stealing their shit and selling it later was always fun.


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## Bokracroc (Jul 30, 2007)

Little_Dragon said:
			
		

> I skipped straight from _Daggerfall_ to _Oblivion_, so I can't really make a fair comparison.  I enjoyed _Oblivion_ immensely while it lasted, though.


Oh snap.

Feel like something's missing?


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## webkilla (Jul 30, 2007)

its been quite a while since i've tried morrowind... but i still remember it quite clearly

but which i prefer?

well, with a mod i got which fixed the leveling bugs and loot table bufs in Oblivion (no more highwaymen with dwemer gear) the game actually became quite fun to play - but felt painfully linear in that you really didn't have much to do after you cleared out the different guild quest lines and even main storyline! plus in completing the main storyline you make the capital city temple district look like a ruin... which i dont like.

morrowind was fun in that you had things like levitation - that was always nice - plus you had so much more enchantment slots... if you were a caster of any kind those were absolutely critical, oblivion just doesn't have enough to allow for good enough protection imo.

still, morrowind did blow ass in the lack of transport - you either had to teleport from mage guildhalls, take the bug-train or teleport to temples... and even then you VERY often had to cover a lot of land on foot... usualy at your own peril


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## ADF (Jul 30, 2007)

It meant you actually played the role of someone new to the land.

Adventure, exploration, risk. You are far more likely to discover something of interest such as a old ruin or hidden encampment travelling across the barren landscape, it also gives a better feel for the sheer size of the game. If you wanted to get somewhere fast, there was public transport and spells that allowed you to get around quicker. You could actually get lost in Morrowind and endure the hardships of its environment, breathing a sigh of relief as you stagger into town after a long journey and find a nice cosy bed. Adventuring should never be a laid back and easy way of life, it should have its ups and downs.

Not the ADD fast travel system in Oblivion; people actually felt the game was smaller than Morrowind simply because they could travel across the map in a instant. Yes It was irritating at times to walk all the way to somewhere across several mountains, but that travel has a impact on the games immersion. If you are a few potions short in Oblivion you can quickly jump all the way to town and back within a minute, in Morrowind you had to make do with what you had. You were never stressed in Oblivion, never challenged, there was always a easy way out. That may be fine for most people but quite frankly I get bored with things always going my way, a little discomfort spices things up.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 30, 2007)

Just cause you CAN fast travel, doesn't mean you have to fast travel.


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## ADF (Jul 30, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Just cause you CAN fast travel, doesn't mean you have to fast travel.


The whole game is designed for fast travel, there is no pay to ride public transport or teleportation spells. If you don't feel like running/riding to the other side of the map then fast travel is the only option.

Keep in mind I did admit walking everywhere does get tedious; which is why paying for a silt strider (sp?) or boat was a convenience, but Oblivion does not support such conveniences. Getting a carriage or boat between towns would add to role play value while still requiring adventuring outside of safety, but instead you magically teleport anywhere on the map without incident and risk.

I suppose to summarize I will say that even if you do your best not to use fast travel, it is a safety net that almost eliminates the psychological risk of going outside of towns. I will never experience the same feelings of being miles away from civilisation in a sand storm with minimal supplies in Oblivion. The only place that actually duplicates it is being in the Oblivion realm, but even in hell it seems there are fountains of health and mana to sustain you and a limited number of opponents. Camping in Morrowind meant you were always at risk from wandering wildelife.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 30, 2007)

Least there's horses :/

But I do think that part of what you're saying could be in relation to the fact that all the towns are marked off in the beginning, and that there's no FOW like in morrowind.

Still, even with morrowind's fun gameplay and more of an RPG feel, it's hard to go back after playing oblivion.

Maybe it's just the little ADHD ridden kid inside me, but even if oblivion doesn't offer a "improved morrowind", it's still alot more fun.

I guess I just like bad games then. Sorry.


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## ADF (Jul 30, 2007)

Oh don't get me wrong, I am not trying to 'convert' you into a Oblivion hater. I am just getting across the reasons why myself and others have a problem with the game, and why we would prefer a bug fixed and engine upgraded Morrowind over Oblivion.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 30, 2007)

I just really can't stand having piss poor graphics (I have the xbox goty version, it was a gift, so no modding at all), horrid combat system (Ooh I shot a bow right in your stomach but it totally missed!) Way too much reading (It's fine until my eyes start to hurt) annoying sounds (BEST FOOTSTEPS EVER) and just the bunches of bugs. It's still a good game, but no where near how good oblivion is, but i'm not trying to convert you into a morrowind hater, i'm just stating my displeasure at certain things, but then again, I know you are as well.

Maybe it's just the inner fan nerd in me that won't let me to quit, but i've played the other TESes, and I just can't enjoy them as much as oblivion.


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## ADF (Jul 30, 2007)

What did you play before voice acting :lol: back in the days when everything had text. 

Sound takes up a significant portion of the disk if used for voices (50% in Oblivion), plus hiring many voice actors is expensive as hell. Game budgets and disk capacity have only really reached the point where they can have voices in big games in the last couple of years. It's nice but due to the sheer space required and human resource costs, it severally limits the amount of dialogue you can have in a game. I guess we will have to wait for perfect voice generation software before we can have voiced dialogue without the costs to detail and length.

The combat is the way it is because it relies on character skill rather than player skill for chance to hit, a staple of real role playing games. How well it works depends on how they have tweaked it; they could for instance have a base hit chance of 35%, have skill in the weapon dramatically raise it to 65-75%, then have anything higher on masters in the skill. The base chance to hit system in Morrowind is fine, but they probably set the minimum chance to hit way too low. Frankly as I said earlier if they had dodge and parry animations less people would complain, but I expect it was down to cost and technical limitations for the time.

You have to remember, Morrowind came out in 2002, back then this game would be as graphically advanced as Oblivion. It's not really fair to judge the game on visuals and audio when there is around a 5 year technological gap between the two. That and there are many problems with the engine, for instance Morrowind's licensed engine renders EVERYTHING in a zone whether you are looking at it or not, this severally limits how the engine can be moded graphically. As for bugs, all of Bethesda's games are like that, Oblivion is no exception 

Well anyway I think we have been going at it long enough, I'll respond to future posts but I won't give my opinion on your next one unless given a good reason.


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## chronoteeth (Jul 30, 2007)

I guess with each new generation, my eyes get adjusted to whats pretty or not. Plus, morrowind just gives you huge gigantic clumps of text rather than scrolling or setting them in droves, which can make it feel a bit overwhelming (unless it's the books, those are reasonable), but yes, no more complaining.


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## psion (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm siding with Morrowind.  I never experienced most of the bugs the rest of you are complaining about but I do know the frustration of needing journal directions AND the everything but the kitchen sink map in the hint guide just to find something, even then I stumbled on things by accident part of the time.  And once I got past the frustration, finding stuff was very satisfying.
Then there was the quest content, few Oblivion quests had the same kind of feeling I got from the Romance Quests.  Plus being able to become the guildmaster in EVERY guild was a bit disenchanting.  In Morrowind we had a epic tale involving a war breaking out between the Theives Guild and the Fighters Guild, Oblivion had nothing even close to that.
Overall, I just wasn't as impressed with Oblivion as I was with Morrowind.


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## Ray Kicio (Jul 31, 2007)

For me, Oblivion had a far better combat system than Morrowind.

Everything else though, Morrowind did far better. Guildmaster of every guild? Ha! Attacked by a highway man with glass armor? Ha! An old dungeon is now crawling with gloom waiths? HA!

Don't give me the "You can just download mods" either. First, console gamers can't do that. Second, if you are modding it, you didn't like what the company gave you, did you? Any content you add is not content of the game or of the company that created a game so it should not be rated on a choice of the quality of the game.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 1, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> I just really can't stand having piss poor graphics (I have the xbox goty version, it was a gift, so no modding at all), horrid combat system (Ooh I shot a bow right in your stomach but it totally missed!) Way too much reading (It's fine until my eyes start to hurt) annoying sounds (BEST FOOTSTEPS EVER) and just the bunches of bugs. It's still a good game, but no where near how good oblivion is, but i'm not trying to convert you into a morrowind hater, i'm just stating my displeasure at certain things, but then again, I know you are as well.
> 
> Maybe it's just the inner fan nerd in me that won't let me to quit, but i've played the other TESes, and I just can't enjoy them as much as oblivion.



i detest it when people pick at a game over GRAPHICS. its the most moronic thing to pick at a game for. other then allowing you to see your enemy it does very very little to add to the gameplay. "oh wow look at the special effects of that crystal" do NOT even come close to "i just killed the lich king, my magicly enhanced sword scorched his flesh, and my characters high dodge skill prevented him from returning the favor in our five minute epic battle". 

btw, the "horrid combat system" is not about twitch gameplay. its about how skilled your character is. so ya you missed not because your personal aim was off, you missed because your character wasnt skilled. its called a ROLE PLAYING GAME. thats how they function, your character's stats determine a chance that he will be able to acomplish a certian task. dont like it, pick up a shooter.

here is what i hate about the oblivion combat system. there is absolutely 100% no reason to level up your character EVER. you can beat the damn fucking game as a level 1. hell i beat the arena champ as a level 1(i think he is perminantly a level 10 a rarity in the game) because im damn good at timeing and avoidance. the only true advantage of leveling your combat skill up in oblivion is that you gain acess to new techniques wich are largely worthless. the dmg gain is worthless btw, because your enemies level as you do. you do more damage, they have more health. its pointless.

also note that topics for conversations in oblivion due to the fact that everything "said" was done by voice actors and not text were limited to jack and squat. in morrowind you had TONS of topics to talk to every character with. some of them were just there to remind you of something but they were all generally usefull. oblivion just didnt have even half of the information provided via npc's that morrowind did. thats one of the failings of having every npc talk to you. the only game ive seen do that while having a halfway decent selection was gothic...


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## Bokracroc (Aug 1, 2007)

Why are we comparing a RPG to a Stat-based, Action-Adventure?


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## chronoteeth (Aug 1, 2007)

Cause no matter how you hate it, it's an rpg.


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## Silver R. Wolfe (Aug 1, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Cause no matter how you hate it, it's a stat-based action adventure.


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## ADF (Aug 1, 2007)

ceacar99 said:
			
		

> here is what i hate about the oblivion combat system. there is absolutely 100% no reason to level up your character EVER. you can beat the damn fucking game as a level 1. hell i beat the arena champ as a level 1(i think he is perminantly a level 10 a rarity in the game) because im damn good at timeing and avoidance. the only true advantage of leveling your combat skill up in oblivion is that you gain acess to new techniques wich are largely worthless. the dmg gain is worthless btw, because your enemies level as you do. you do more damage, they have more health. its pointless.


Not to mention that you are being constantly punished for every action you take.

If you level up, hope that it was a skill that will aid you in combat. Level up a couple of time with skills like acrobatics, athletics, mercantile, speechcraft and alchemy and your screwed. Levelling up also results in what you said, automatic level scaling to ensure you can never train your character to be stronger than the random animals and thugs you encounter in the wilderness. God forbid if you play a none combat orientated character, even one that just doesn't focus everything on it, you will be getting your ass handed to you 24/7.

BUT

If you don't level up, everything you find will always be junk. Quest rewards will be scaled to your level, losing quite possibly the best items and spells in the game, forever. You will never be surprised or by luck come across a great treasure during your 'adventures', it will always be junk unless you level up.

So punished if you level, punished if you don't level, it's a grand feeling isn't it?


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## chronoteeth (Aug 1, 2007)

Silver R. Wolfe said:
			
		

> chronoteeth said:
> 
> 
> 
> > Cause no matter how you hate it, it's a stat-based action adventure.



AKA an rpg.


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## ADF (Aug 2, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> AKA an rpg.


After the butchering of today's gaming market, anything can be considered a RPG these days.

It is sad really, the core premises of RPG has been completely lost in a effort to appeal to broader and younger audiences with shorter attention spans. Most people these days probably don't even know that RPG and CRPG are different things, not just different ways to refer to the same thing.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 2, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Silver R. Wolfe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're using it the wrong context fool.
If we use yours then Thief is a RPG.
Resistance is a RPG
NFS: Carbon is a RPG
Any game where you play a role of a character is a RPG.

In true game RPG's, your success is based of the numbers behind your character. Do you see D&D players successfully playing D&D based on their 'twitch' skills?


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 2, 2007)

RPG:
Role
Playing
Game

A game in which you assume the role of a character within the world and story?


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## Bokracroc (Aug 2, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> RPG:
> Role
> Playing
> Game
> ...


In Half-Life you play the role of Gordan Freeman, that therefore would make it a RPG.
In Operation Flashpoint, you play the role of several different solders going through the war, that therefore would make it a RPG.

Want to start blurring the line?
In GTA:SA, you play the role of Carl Johnson, during the game you can improve various skills that allow you to perform better, that therefore would make it a RPG.
In DX:IW you play the role of Alex D., during the game you can get Bio-mods which let you perform certain things better or do totally new things, that therefore would make it a RPG.
In these games, you don't have to 'level up' a skill to accomplish your objective (apart from that Swimming mission).

Now lets look at Fallout 2, Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, KOTOR......list goes on.
Compare the 'RPG' in these games together and ask, are those 'stats' actually doing and/or contributing to the core gameplay in someway.


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