# Places to send furry fiction.



## foozzzball (Feb 8, 2009)

This list is for venues to post furry fiction, to submit furry fiction or to try and sell furry fiction. Only venues that are regularly open to submissions from the public and have a focus on the fandom are to be listed. This thread also exists on FurRag's forums and the Furrywriter's LJ community.

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Archives:

AnthroArchives - www.anthroarchives.org - Forum based fiction archive, with a focus on general audience material. Writers need to apply to use the archive.

Anthrofiction Stories - www.anthrofiction.com - Fiction archive with a focus on general audience material. Seems rather quiet.

Furaffinity - www.furaffinity.net - You should be _perfectly_ aware of the place. Art-oriented archive which has provisions for fiction to be put on display. Takes all content. 

FurRag - www.furrag.com - Fiction-oriented archive. Takes all content.

The Raccoon's Bookshelf - www.raccoons-bookshelf.com - Fiction archive with a focus on general audiences content. See their guidelines.

VCL - us.vclart.net - Art-oriented archive which also accepts fiction. Takes most content, writers need to apply to use the archive.

YiffStar - www.yiffstar.com - Not work-safe in the least. Fiction-oriented archive with a major focus on erotica. Quite large.


Web 'Zines:

Anthrozine - www.anthrozine.com - General audiences webzine, with issues released once every two months. Takes fiction submissions. Non-paying venue (as far as I know). 


Print: 

Sofawolf Press - www.sofawolf.com - their updates livejournal - Publishes a variety of material, including comics, periodicals and novels. Regular publications with open submission include New Fables and Heat, both of which pay. More details here.

Bad Dog Books - www.baddogbooks.com - Publishes mainly fiction and novels. Regular publicatications include FANG and ROAR, both of which pay. More details here.

Michaela's Midnight Letters - www.ibexa.com/DigitalWuff/Michaela/ - Furry Erotica fanzine, in the style of confessional letters. Submissions details here.


Podcasts: 

Anthropomorphic Dreams Podcast - www.anthrodreams.com - Regular podcast looking for furry fiction of 2000-6000 words, which is paid for. (Also some print opportunities now and then.) Subs Guidelines.


Contests:

Anthrofiction Short Story Contest - www.anthrofiction.net - Quarterly contest based around a theme/prompt open to the public, judged by the public. No prizes.


Regional: 

South Fur Lands - www.chakatsden.com/sfl/index.html - Apparently takes submissions from authors south of the equator. Contributors get a free copy.


Other:

PlanetFurry - www.planetfurry.com - Web hosting and forums available for furry works, general content. Similar services for adult content may be available at PlanetFurry After Dark.

The Goddamned Furry Board - www.dammitfreehaven.com - A furry image board with a writing section. Open to any and all content. I have no concept what kind of audience you're going to get. The writing section, called the Writing Corner, is found here. More details here.


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## foozzzball (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey folks - _please_ post here with information you may have about a venue to post fiction and I'll edit the first post to include it in the list. I've continually been looking for something like this and have never quite managed to find one for the fandom at large, so, I thought I might as well try starting one.


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## Poetigress (Feb 8, 2009)

Yeah, I remember when I first started looking for places to submit my work in the fandom, and I was surprised that there wasn't any decent collection of information about potential markets.

Some print market info for you:


*New Fables*
Website: http://www.newfables.com
Editor: Tim Susman
Publisher: Sofawolf Press
Frequency: Annual (typically released at Anthrocon)
Description: Anthro-themed literary journal (no erotica)
Payment: 1/2 cent/word
Submission guidelines: http://www.newfables.com/newfablessubmissionguidelines

*Heat*
Editor: Alopex
Publisher: Sofawolf Press
Frequency: Annual (typically released at Anthrocon)
Description: Furry erotica, all orientations
Payment: I believe that's also 1/2 cent/word
Submission guidelines (deadlines are out of date, but the rest of the info is good): 
http://www.sofawolf.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=39

(Note: For the best info on deadlines for _New Fables_ and _Heat_, keep an eye on the Sofawolf Press LiveJournal at http://sofawolf.livejournal.com.)

*ROAR*
Editor: Ben Goodridge
Publisher: Bad Dog Books
Frequency: annual? not sure
Description: Anthro fiction (no erotica).  Each issue has a specific theme.
Payment: $1/page (no info on how a page is calculated)
Submission guidelines: http://www.baddogbooks.com/BDB/ROAR_Vol._2_Accepting_Submissions.html

*FANG*
Editor: Cinnamon DeWolf
Publisher: Bad Dog Books
Frequency: annual?
Description: Furry erotica.  Each issue has a specific theme.
Payment: $1/page
Submission guidelines: http://www.baddogbooks.com/BDB/FANG_Vol._4:_Life_After_High_School.html




I know there are some other print markets, but the others I'm aware of are more in the fanzine realm.  (Anyone know if _Fang, Claw, and Steel_ is still around, or have any info on them?)

Also, in the archives category, AnthroArchives.org is still around, though they recently had to change everything over to a forum-based system, and not all the members have returned.  It's pretty inactive at the moment, but does differ from the other archives in that it only accepts general-audience work.


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## foozzzball (Feb 8, 2009)

According to wikifur, _Fang, Claw, and Steel_ shut up shop somewhere in 2006.

Fanzines are good if they're predominantly furry.

Hmm. Think the relatively low frequency of print publications is a budget thing, a sales thing, or a lack of material thing?


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## â„¢-Daley Leungsangnam475-â„¢ (Feb 8, 2009)

http://www.fanart-central.net/

i've not used that site since 2004 ... but i know its still going
it also does art aswell ... but i'm not sure about furry art ... it always allows hentai ... from what i remember


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## Poetigress (Feb 8, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> Fanzines are good if they're predominantly furry.



I'd put them in a different category from the other publications, though -- first because they're generally nonpaying, and second because quality (both of the physical product and the material) can vary widely.  They're also usually put out at odd intervals, and unless you know the people in charge, it can be hard to know when and where to submit.  

I haven't been to any cons lately, so I don't know what's out there right now.



> Think the relatively low frequency of print publications is a budget thing, a sales thing, or a lack of material thing?



From what I've heard, I'd guess that all three play a part, as each factor can also affect the others, but I do believe financial concerns (as well as finding people with the time and level of commitment to run things) play the biggest role.  

For example, I haven't heard any specifics as to why _Renard's Menagerie_ recently closed, but I suspect their sales weren't what they needed to be to keep it going.  (I've also felt that their _marketing_ wasn't what it needed to be to get sales from the target audience, but that's pure speculation on my part.)  

Print publications can be very expensive to run, especially if you're trying to pay writers and artists decent rates.  I'd like to see more online markets for furry fiction (especially ones that would offer at least a token payment), but the only one of those that I was aware of, Claw & Quill, shut down as a webzine years ago and is now in the process of being reincarnated as something similar to an archive site for writing only.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 8, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> I haven't been to any cons lately, so I don't know what's out there right now.



Mostly what I see at cons are just self pub'd through Lulu.  I see next to no Furry magazines or fanzines out there focused on writing.


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## Shouden (Feb 8, 2009)

You can also try Dark Horse Comics. They seem to have a varied range of genres they publish. Of course, since they're so big, it's no guaruntee they'll publish you, but DHC usually provides people with a colt following. And a lot of their big name titles are being made or have been made into movies. (Hellyboy, Punisher, Sin City, Blade, and Ghost in the Shell just to name a few.) Dark Horse is also a major magna publisher, as well.


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## foozzzball (Feb 9, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> This list is for venues to post furry fiction, to submit furry fiction or to try and sell furry fiction. Only venues that are regularly open to submissions from the public are to be listed.



Places like Fan Art Central and Dark Horse Comics don't have nearly enough of a focus on furry material for me to feel comfortable listing them. In theory one could try and list all the potential places to send it - the science fiction webzines, etcetera - but you can actually find generic science fiction quite clearly listed at places like Ralan's and in a copy of writer's market.

Anyhow!




redcard said:


> Mostly what I see at cons are just self pub'd through Lulu. I see next to no Furry magazines or fanzines out there focused on writing.



That's disheartening, really. I suppose it's the problem at large of print fiction supposedly going the way of the dinosaur, but in microcosm. I suppose what needs to be done is to kind of, figure out what niche fiction sits in now.




Poetigress said:


> Print publications can be very expensive to run, especially if you're trying to pay writers and artists decent rates. I'd like to see more online markets for furry fiction (especially ones that would offer at least a token payment), but the only one of those that I was aware of, Claw & Quill, shut down as a webzine years ago and is now in the process of being reincarnated as something similar to an archive site for writing only.



I am really looking forward to whatever happens with Claw and Quill. But yeah. More markets, particularly paying ones, would be absolutely fantastic. I suppose part of the issue is that getting stuff up in print is, as you say, expensive, so if you add half onto the running costs as your cover price, you end up with a decent chunk of change to pay content providers. Getting stuff up on the web is cheap, so cheap it's frequently more expensive to put a system into place to get people to pay an entry fee than it is to get the content up. 

Problematic dichotomy, there.


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## Poetigress (Feb 9, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> so cheap it's frequently more expensive to put a system into place to get people to pay an entry fee than it is to get the content up.



True, but having people pay for "subscriptions" to online magazines was an experiment that pretty much failed in the early days of ezines.  There are some that have the reputation and/or content to pull it off, but mostly what seems best is to build enough of a readership that you can offer ads and bring in revenue that way to cover your costs and pay the writers.  (I note that quite a few zines, as well as general writing websites, have started using Google's ads.)

And, it really can't be listed with the others because he doesn't take submissions on an ongoing basis, but I know Will Sanborn is planning on future anthology projects, to follow _Alone in the Dark._  Right now there's just a placeholder page at http://www.anthrodreams.com/ but I assume when there's another call for submissions he'll put details there and on his FA page. (He's also planning a furry fiction podcast, and there are some sample readings on his FA page.)


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## foozzzball (Feb 9, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> True, but having people pay for "subscriptions" to online magazines was an experiment that pretty much failed in the early days of ezines.  There are some that have the reputation and/or content to pull it off, but mostly what seems best is to build enough of a readership that you can offer ads and bring in revenue that way to cover your costs and pay the writers.  (I note that quite a few zines, as well as general writing websites, have started using Google's ads.)



Monetizing fiction online is, well. It's a thing. Also applies to web comics, really. The one fiction writer I know of who's supposedly earning their crust off the internet is the person responsible for Tales of Mu, which is sort of a regular serial fiction thing with a tip jar. Not sure if that'll work for all of us.




> And, it really can't be listed with the others because he doesn't take submissions on an ongoing basis, but I know Will Sanborn is planning on future anthology projects, to follow _Alone in the Dark._  Right now there's just a placeholder page at http://www.anthrodreams.com/ but I assume when there's another call for submissions he'll put details there and on his FA page. (He's also planning a furry fiction podcast, and there are some sample readings on his FA page.)



Honestly the major reason I don't want to list non-ongoing venues is so that when the inevitable happens and I forget to update these things for awhile, it still remains useful as long as possible. I'm not going to have any problem using the bottom end of the list for temporary calls for submissions, but honestly there needs to be some kind of mailing list or whatnot for that. People are unlikely to check this thing daily on the off chance a call for submissions comes up, y'know?

Will Sanborn's thing does look kind of hopeful. I've often thought that the people interested in publishing furry fiction as a sort of hobby-business could probably do very well by making use of POD. How was your experience with _Alone in the Dark?_


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## Poetigress (Feb 9, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> Monetizing fiction online is, well. It's a thing. Also applies to web comics, really. The one fiction writer I know of who's supposedly earning their crust off the internet is the person responsible for Tales of Mu, which is sort of a regular serial fiction thing with a tip jar. Not sure if that'll work for all of us.



I may try some experiments along that line after the novel is done, although not using that particular model.  The main thing is, as far as I can tell, you have to have an audience already in place before you try to sell them anything.  Few readers are going to bother to spend time reading something from someone they don't know, let alone spending money.



> Honestly the major reason I don't want to list non-ongoing venues is so that when the inevitable happens and I forget to update these things for awhile, it still remains useful as long as possible. I'm not going to have any problem using the bottom end of the list for temporary calls for submissions, but honestly there needs to be some kind of mailing list or whatnot for that. People are unlikely to check this thing daily on the off chance a call for submissions comes up, y'know?



Well, I think about it in the same way that the Writer's Market books work.  They still list publishers even if they're not currently taking submissions, as long as there's the possibility of future projects, and they provide the website and contact info so writers can do their own research to see what's going on currently.  Assuming, of course, that writers will do their own research.  (Incidentally, because you mention in the listing that Sofawolf prints comics and novels in addition to periodicals, it might be worth a mention that Sofawolf doesn't take unsolicited novel manuscripts.  I can't remember if they explicitly state that on their website or not.)

I admit, you kind of beat me to this concept.  I had thought of doing a Furry Writer's Market, likely as a PDF or something I could upload to FA a couple times a year to keep it updated, listing the various markets, with detailed info from the editors about what they're looking for (or not looking for), and maybe a few interviews with editors or writers, the way WM does.  But I never got anything started before the novel rewrite sucked up all my creative time.  



> How was your experience with _Alone in the Dark?_



Excellent, in every way.  The quality of the physical product was very good, the illustrations were good, the contract and payment (cash and contributor's copy) were reasonable, and Will was great to work with.  Granted, there wasn't really anything in the way of editing done with my piece, so I can't speak to that aspect of working with him, but everything was handled very professionally.


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## foozzzball (Feb 9, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> I may try some experiments along that line after the novel is done, although not using that particular model.  The main thing is, as far as I can tell, you have to have an audience already in place before you try to sell them anything.  Few readers are going to bother to spend time reading something from someone they don't know, let alone spending money.



AFAIK the Tales from Mu person was running it on LJ for a couple of years first, so... yeah. Building an audience is perhaps the first problem to be conquered before you consider how to monetize yourself.



> Well, I think about it in the same way that the Writer's Market books work.



I keep promising myself I'm going to buy myself a WM, but I keep holding off on the grounds of 'once I have a finished novel MS, THEN you can buy it'.



> (Incidentally, because you mention in the listing that Sofawolf prints comics and novels in addition to periodicals, it might be worth a mention that Sofawolf doesn't take unsolicited novel manuscripts.  I can't remember if they explicitly state that on their website or not.)



Don't they? Crap! Noted. 

Also the regular writer's market has... a slightly higher element of stability than fandom press. I have to admit, in the furry fandom? Most of the time I hear about a publication or publisher, it's been dead and buried for a year. I'm actually worried about BDB, too, haven't heard a peep out of them in ages.



> I admit, you kind of beat me to this concept.  I had thought of doing a Furry Writer's Market, likely as a PDF or something I could upload to FA a couple times a year to keep it updated, listing the various markets, with detailed info from the editors about what they're looking for (or not looking for), and maybe a few interviews with editors or writers, the way WM does.  But I never got anything started before the novel rewrite sucked up all my creative time.



!

Don't let me stop you, I would love something like that. I'm just, uh. I'm just sharing what information I have in the selfish hope other people can add to my 'places to look at for attention/cash/editting' list. Not the most benevolent of motivations, but if other people benefit it's okay, right?




> Granted, there wasn't really anything in the way of editing done with my piece, so I can't speak to that aspect of working with him, but everything was handled very professionally.



Oh, well that just tells us he knows how to pick authors who are good at their craft. You know, perfect submissions first time out? <.<

But yes. I'll definitely keep an ear open for word on whenever he's next looking for material.


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## Poetigress (Feb 9, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> I keep promising myself I'm going to buy myself a WM, but I keep holding off on the grounds of 'once I have a finished novel MS, THEN you can buy it'.



Honestly, I wouldn't bother anymore, at least with the print edition (I think they also do an electronic website database subscription).  There's so much info out there online anymore.  I haven't bought this year's copy of Novel & Short Story Writer's Market because I've been finding all my markets on Ralan anyway.



> Don't they? Crap!



As I was told, the way to get a novel considered with them is to publish short works in their periodicals first, to get a track record going with them, so they can see how you are to work with and get familiar with your craft and style.  I can understand that -- publishing someone's novel requires a great deal of time and effort, and they wouldn't want to find out halfway through the process that the author is a prima donna who won't change a word of his work, or something like that.  

The only downside to their policy is that I know there are some furry writers who pretty much work only in novel format and don't do much in the way of short fiction.  I'm learning the hard way that they are different skill sets. 



> Don't let me stop you, I would love something like that. I'm just, uh. I'm just sharing what information I have in the selfish hope other people can add to my 'places to look at for attention/cash/editting' list.



Hey, it helps everybody.  >^_^<  As for me, well, I'll get the book done and then see what else I have time for...


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## GraemeLion (Feb 9, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> That's disheartening, really. I suppose it's the problem at large of print fiction supposedly going the way of the dinosaur, but in microcosm. I suppose what needs to be done is to kind of, figure out what niche fiction sits in now.



In the "real world" the best sellers on "The list" end up pulling the train.   These megasellers are used to fund the production of the "new guys."  We, in Furry, don't have much of a mega-seller option.  There's no way to pull new authors and fund their work, because there's no major selling novels inside Furry publishers.

So, what most authors do who sell things, is they team up with friends and form an imprint.  They buy a table, run off about twenty copies each at Lulu, autograph them and staff the table through the convention.

I'm more a novelist form myself, than short story, and I'm in the same position.  When I get done with this, where's it going to go?  I might try to sell it outright.. I could go podiobook/lulu (and probably will).. but otherwise, it's not got much of a chance in the "real world."

Ultimately, for me, it looks like it comes down to two things.  You either sell to mainstream, or you sell to Furry.    It doesn't seem possible to do both.


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## Poetigress (Feb 9, 2009)

redcard said:


> Ultimately, for me, it looks like it comes down to two things.  You either sell to mainstream, or you sell to Furry.    It doesn't seem possible to do both.



You can do both, as a writer, but not always with the same material.  

For starters, unless the manuscript is appropriate as juvenile or YA fiction, you're probably not going to sell "humans in fur coats" to the mainstream, even though it can be sold in the fandom.  In my experience, most people outside the fandom, even avid sf/f readers, just _do not get_ randomly having characters be anthro animals with no explanation why.  It becomes a block they can't seem to get past.  

And furry erotica.... Unless you're writing about werewolves or shapeshifters, good luck getting mainstream erotica editors to touch anything with anthro characters.  Ridiculously, anthro characters who wear clothes and speak English and give informed adult consent still seem to fall too close to bestiality for their comfort.  So in the adult genre, you're pretty much limited to the fandom no matter what.  (The good news is, sales of adult content are perennially strong in the fandom.)

Furry is a niche market.  Some things are going to be appropriate to sell in that niche, and others might have a shot at a wider audience.  The tough part is stepping out of the furry-fandom mindset and trying to look at one's ms as a mainstream reader would, in order to figure out whether it's got a decent chance in the "real world" or not (a good reason to have beta readers who aren't in the fandom).


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## GraemeLion (Feb 9, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> You can do both, as a writer, but not always with the same material.
> 
> For starters, unless the manuscript is appropriate as juvenile or YA fiction, you're probably not going to sell "humans in fur coats" to the mainstream, even though it can be sold in the fandom.  In my experience, most people outside the fandom, even avid sf/f readers, just _do not get_ randomly having characters be anthro animals with no explanation why.  It becomes a block they can't seem to get past.
> 
> ...



Well, I have no interest in selling erotica, whatsoever, so that does make it a bit more difficult for me to find a market in Furry.  But yes, absolutely everything else you say is true.

I'm speaking from a "what I see" position.  What I see is that currently, writing is not selling well at conventions.  I think it's because we tend to not have as big or structured community as the graphical artists.  

I'm probably going to go the Lulu route myself.   Perhaps that can be considered for future anthologies/runs within furry.


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## Poetigress (Feb 9, 2009)

redcard said:


> What I see is that currently, writing is not selling well at conventions.



From what I heard, Sofawolf Press sold every copy of Kyell Gold's latest that they brought to FC, and I think they brought something like twice or three times the number of copies than usual.  (Of course, his work does have erotic content, so we're kind of back to that issue, but it's still writing.)

Compared to art sales, writing is... well, it's never going to compare.  But I wonder how much of the problem is that a lot of people don't have much disposable income for anything right now, since even art sales seem to be down at cons (based on what I've read in various artists' journals and blogs).

But yeah, in your position, I'd definitely be looking at either Lulu or at Amazon's Createspace POD.  Right now those seem to be the best ways, IMO, to self-publish long work within the fandom.  (Will Sanborn published his _Alone in the Dark_ anthology via those two companies, and although I didn't realize it, _Renard's Menagerie_ was also printed by Lulu.)


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## TakeWalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Stepping in just to say, we ought to get a mod to pin this. Too many cooks and all that, but I'd hate to see this slip off the front page, as it's already an excellent resource.


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## Poetigress (Feb 9, 2009)

If we can get a mod to pin this, maybe we can get them to drop 3/4 of the other stickies at the same time...


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## foozzzball (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, we can just go with the alternative method of pinning this, by continuing lengthy conversations on the nature of places to send furry material. >.>

Kyell Gold seems to be one of the few comparitively known authors right now. I think he's another case of doing a lot of audience-building before trying to monetize his work?

Could well be that the modern method to success is to build up your audience long before you try to publish anything. Of course then we need more 'how to be popular' guides rather than '909 tips for excellent writing'.


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## Poetigress (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, success, in terms of selling books, has always been a marketing game.  People have to know you exist before they can read or buy your work.  That's true no matter what or where you publish -- whether it's posting a story on FA or publishing a book with a major house.  That said, I don't want to diminish the aspect of learning one's craft.  You can have fireworks and free T-shirts and the big inflatable gorilla to lure people over to your tent, but if there's nothing there worth reading, few people are going to stick around.

As far as Kyell goes, I don't know enough about him to know the path he's taken, but I know he's posted a lot of stuff on Yiffstar, and he's been in every issue of _Heat_.  I'm not sure when the first book came along though, in that timeline.  And it's worth pointing out that, even with published books, it can still take some time to build a reputation and an audience.  His latest novel has sold incredibly well, but that's about his... what, fifth book now, I think?  So it's not like he (or anyone else) has attained his current level of sales and readership out of nowhere.  

I guess my point is, there are very, very few overnight successes in this business, whether we're talking about the fandom or the mainstream.  If it seems like someone is, you're likely just seeing the tip of the iceberg, and not all the work that's gone on for years beneath the surface.  (Often the first novel sold is more like the third or fourth novel written.)

But yeah, I think audience-building is really important for selling work to a niche market like the fandom.  It's not the only thing, but it's something I think writers need to be aware of.  I do believe -- despite cynicism on bad writing days  -- that good writing will find its audience, but I also know it doesn't magically happen just because your work is available.


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## ScottyDM (Feb 11, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> Could well be that the modern method to success is to build up your audience long before you try to publish anything. Of course then we need more 'how to be popular' guides rather than '909 tips for excellent writing'.


It's a necessity for self-publishing, which includes web-publishing, but from what I've read of the business the main-stream publishers are more likely to sign a new author with a fan base than an unknown.


*So how do we build an audience?*

Work at it. It might spontaneously happen if you produce enough content, but spontaneous takes a long, long time. Producing content and making sure that people know how to find it, seems to be the two keys to finding an audience. As writers we should know how to create content. It's the getting it out there that we need to learn.

*Randy Ingermanson* (the snowflake guy) talks about "tiger marketing" in most every issue of his monthly e-zine. You can find back issues here. Be sure to sign up for the e-zine while you're on that page. Also note that you can get a link to his tiger marketing report when you sign up.

*Nalts*, a YouTube-based amateur comedian and professional marketer, has published an e-book report on becoming popular on YouTube. While there are specifics that work only on video-posting sites, much of what he teaches are general marketing principles.

Your venue can be most anything, but to reach a wide audience it should probably be something on the Internet. Video sites like YouTube, blogs, podcasting, etc. are effective at getting your content in front of an audience--if you have the content. Grammar Girl has a podcast where she talks about how to podcast your book.


*The next big question is, what is the final goal?*

Getting creative stories out to the public (calling it publishing is so limited) is changing. But what is it changing to?

*Video* is the future, but it's not very practical for most people. With digital actors, digital set building, music composition and mixing, and more--it's _possible_ for one person to create a movie on their PC. Of course it still takes plenty of talent and tons of time. Now that may be only a 10-minute movie and it'll probably take 5 months to complete, but at least it's possible.

*Audio books* are a strong possibility for the future and they are practical. I'll touch on their practicality more below.

Novels in *e-book* form have most of the disadvantages of paper and ink, plus a whole new set of disadvantages. Perhaps if Apple creates an iBook the size of a stick of gum, that reads e-book format in a realistic synthesized voice, then e-books will take off. Of course that's transforming e-book content in to an audio book experience. Kindle just ain't that compelling for novels--sorry Amazon.

*Paper and ink* is well accepted, but stupendously expensive if you expect to sell more than a hundred copies. This may change as more people buy paper and ink books off the Internet, but that day isn't here yet. With books, the full advantage goes to the brick-and-mortar bookstores, not places like Amazon. How many books could Amazon sell if they didn't offer a substantial discount + no sales tax + free shipping?

In the bookstore you can browse thousands books + gaze at the front and back covers of a hundred or so + crack open and read a few pages out of dozens, and all in a couple of hours. That sort of buyer's experience is impossible online. In the bookstore an author has serendipity working for him--a buyer can stumble across his book while browsing. Online the author must pre-sell his readers so they come looking for his book.

So *the key to decent sales* for fiction is to be in "the channel" and get it stocked in the stores--not as a special order. And that's were it gets expensive because the channel eats money for breakfast, lunch, and dinner--the publisher's money (although there are plenty of bookstores that do a financial crash and burn each year). I'm no expert, but from my studies (blogs, stories, back pages on a few bold publisher's websites, etc.) the short answer is that if a publisher whats to have a snowball's chance of surviving the channel, the cost of getting their books from manuscript to warehouse needs to be 1/8 of the cover price--or less. Preferably less.

This means the only way you can be in the channel is with traditional printing. POD won't fly.

*POD* (print on demand) *has it's place*, and the very best place for it is as close to the reader as physically possible. That's LuLu's model, but LuLu is still stuck with shipping the book, plus the price they charge the author/publisher is frightfully high. Amazon had the right idea with trying to get publishers who use POD to switch all units sold through Amazon to their in-house POD service BookSurge, but they went about it all wrong by trying to _force_ publishers to use BookSurge. But the very, very best place for POD is physically inside the brick and mortar bookstores. In fact that would eliminate a lot of the costs and economic brutality that exists in the channel. Unfortunately a POD setup can easily run a few hundred-thousand dollars.

Which is *why micropresses* like Bad Dog Books, Sofawolf Press, and others *move very few units*. It's not that they publish "furry" books, but that hardly anyone knows their books exist. If you're not in the channel, you don't exist.

So if the physical cost of getting a book from edited manuscript to the warehouse needs to be 1/8 the cover price or less, where does the rest of the money go? Probably another 1/8 goes to sales and promotion, but most of that is between the publisher and the bookstores, not the publisher and the public. Which is why publishers like authors with an existing following amongst the public--even brand new authors. The rest is cost of returns, royalties, cost of money (to cover the multi-month delay before the store pays), some profit if the publisher is lucky, and of course 1/2 is for the bookstore's discount.

And *bookstores hate self-published books* because they're too risky. I learned of a San Francisco author who wrote a sort of furry/TF/drug-culture novel--the protagonist takes too many drugs and is transformed into a bighorn sheep, then runs off to Alaska and is killed by wolves--and he was funded by an NEA grant. So he went deluxe: thousands of casebound copies produced by conventional printing, a beautiful dustcover, professionally produced website, sample readings, especially commissioned music (a whole CD full), and he _still_ couldn't move books (or CDs). In fact for awhile he was giving books to anyone who'd e-mail him their name and address. I guess he needed an SBA grant to market the thing.

*Back to audio books*. First, audio is inherently high tech. Books work with nothing more than the sun or candle light, but audio needs an iPod or Walkman or tape player or _something_--which consumers expect and accept. Second, audio can be distributed in it's final format with no translation required at the point of use. PDF files are a pain to read onscreen, so some people print them out. But mp3 files can be stored and work on the device you use to listen to them.  Meaning, online distribution is not only practical, but the preferred method for many potential customers. Third, building a small production facility to create physical copies on CD and try to get into the channel is practical. For about 2 to 4-thousand dollars one can purchase a CD/DVD duplicator that can get you down to that magic 1/8 cost point. You'd still need to spend $10,000 and up per title for promotion, and that's with some tight-fisted savvy promo, but it's less money up front.

So yea, Bad Dog, Sofawolf, and the others could get into bookstores as audio books if they wanted to take that step.


Now *nonfiction* can be different. Nonfiction is easier to pre-sell. If you happen to be the expert in ____ then anyone interested in ____ will learn of your book and come looking for it. Nonfiction authors who give talks and seminars (and get paid for that) can be very successful at selling self-published books after their talk. Not really an option for fiction.


*And now for something completely different:*

As an *alternative to LuLu*, the no upfront fee POD publisher, there is *Blurb*. A fellow I know over at PlanetFurry used Blurb for a fan-fic he wrote (photos of finished product). Blurb is mostly for picture books, but they have an option for an all text interior.

Hmmm, I don't see his book on Blurb anymore. I remember his retail price was around $10.

Scotty


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## Shouden (Feb 11, 2009)

it should be noted that if you sign up with a good publisher like Penguin or one of the others, then they a lot of times do all the promoting for you. And there are bookstores that will almost exclusively sell books from a particular publisher. However, whatever you do, DO NOT sign up with PublishAmerica. They're a Print on Demand Publisher that advertises as a regular publisher, and they have SEVERAL complaints. They've been on and off the BBB list and you have to do ALL the advertising work yourself and a lot of the major bookstores like Barns & Noble and Borders have said that they will NOT carry PublishAmerica books in their stores.

Another good way to get noticed is a website. I have to re-buy my domain and get everything back up and running, but I used to get 100 or so hits a month. A lot were people from here clicking the address in my signature. And there's another way to get people to check out you and your work: publish stories on sites like Furiaffinity and other writing sites. Who knows, a publisher might just stumble on your story and sign you on as a regular author.

Anyways, just thought I would toss in my two cents.


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## Poetigress (Feb 11, 2009)

Shouden said:


> it should be noted that if you sign up with a good publisher like Penguin or one of the others, then they a lot of times do all the promoting for you.



If you're a big name or your book hits on a popular concept, yeah.  But midlist authors still wind up having to do some of their own promotion, even with a major publishing house.  Promotion budgets, I've heard, are not what they were, and authors keep having to put more of their own effort (and money) to keep their books selling.



> Who knows, a publisher might just stumble on your story and sign you on as a regular author.



Websites are great for promoting work to readers, and for networking with other writers, and just as a kind of general online resumÃ©.  The chances of a publisher stumbling on your online story cold and giving you a contract from it are about the same as winning the Powerball jackpot.  (Actually, most lotteries probably have better odds.)  For one thing, major publishers are generally up to their necks in slush as it is without going out looking for more.  

Now, that said, there are some ways it's happened.  If you develop a relationship with a small-press editor, that might well lead to them giving your ms a look.  Sometimes an author publishing a short story or novella in a top pro market like _Fantasy & Science Fiction_ will catch an editor's eye and eventually be offered a book contract, since editors do read some of the bigger magazines like that.  And there have been some authors like Scott Sigler and J. C. Hutchins who have had books published traditionally based on the following they've built for their 'podiobooks' online.  So it's not impossible, but it still takes work.


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## Shouden (Feb 11, 2009)

any good job takes a lot of hard work, but when you finally start to make even a little money out of it, there's a since of satisfaction about it. There are only a handful of authors who have made a living out of writing, but it happens. The goal is to simply keep at it, keep submitting works to various publishers, keep publishing stuff online, and never give up.


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## foozzzball (Feb 14, 2009)

Okay. Who's sent anything in to one of the new places they've found on this list? What's the experience been?

I just added 'The Goddamned Furry Board', which happens to have a writing section (WTF?), and I am just awfully amused.


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## Freehaven (Feb 14, 2009)

As the co-admin of the above-mentioned board, I'd like to say that The Writing Corner is open to any and all written content, furry-related or not (.txt, .doc, and .pdf files are the formats we allow).  Just keep in mind that if your work sucks, the board's userbase is probably going to say so; we're not a hugbox over there. :lol:

And if you DO post your own work on our board, we ask that you keep your contributions to a single thread dedicated to your work. 

(Oh, and posting anything that's considered illegal, or anything from sites on our DNP list, will result in an immediate ban.)


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## foozzzball (Feb 14, 2009)

Wow, that was fast Freehaven! (It's like I told you about this while trying to figure out how the heck to classify TGFB, huh?) 

Thanks for that, chucked in a more-information-type-link to your post there.


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## Poetigress (Feb 14, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> Okay. Who's sent anything in to one of the new places they've found on this list? What's the experience been?



Do you mean since you've posted this list, or ever?


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## foozzzball (Feb 14, 2009)

Either-or! Ideally since I've posted this list, since I'd like to kid myself that people have found it immediately useful and relevant to their lives, but ever is also good!

I'm actually about to embark on a campaign of testing the waters with a couple of works to see how it all works out, in fact.


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## Poetigress (Feb 14, 2009)

Well, I haven't submitted anything anywhere new since the list was posted (mostly because I haven't anything ready to send out right now), but I did go back and investigate a couple of the archive sites again to see if I wanted to post anywhere else.  I think I've got enough to keep up with as it is, though.  

In terms of history, I have had work in New Fables and Heat, and I'm on AnthroArchives and FurRag, though neither of those is updated nearly as often as FA.  I'd like to eventually send something for consideration in Roar, but so far the themes and timing haven't worked for me.  And I keep ANTHRO on my potential markets list, even though I do wish they were able to pay something...  *shrug*  We'll see what happens once I have more stories completed.


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## Poetigress (Feb 24, 2009)

New fanzine market for erotic furry fiction, pays in copies:

Michaela's Midnight Letters
http://www.ibexa.com/DigitalWuff/Michaela/submissions.html


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## foozzzball (Feb 24, 2009)

A fanzine! :O

Hopefully it shall thrive.


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## foozzzball (Jul 19, 2009)

Quick reminder, Heat #7 is looking for subs --> http://www.sofawolf.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=39


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## foozzzball (Aug 11, 2009)

Arctic Fur - www.arcticfur.billyink.com/ - is a new general audiences webzine, with print copies sold seperately. (?) It's new and I've never heard of it before, but every 'zine starts somewhere! (I'll be adding it to the main list once I've seen evidence that they can get issues out the door.)


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## Poetigress (Aug 11, 2009)

I wish their release form were written a bit more professionally, but we'll see what the first issue looks like.


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## foozzzball (Aug 11, 2009)

http://furpawmag.ning.com/ <-- These guys want furry fiction of around 500 words to 1000 words. (God, that's short!) Guidelines here --> http://furpawmag.ning.com/forum/topics/submission-requirements-for and since they don't have an issue out yet, not yet added to the main list.

(Ps - Thanks to PT for making me aware of these guys!)


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## Tiarhlu (Aug 11, 2009)

That's quite short. This is turning into a busy writing month, but I bet I can do it.


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## M. LeRenard (Aug 11, 2009)

I believe FurPaw does not pay for submissions, so anything you send in will just be for recognition by the readers.  That's probably something people want to know.
But since the submissions would be so short, that makes sense, I guess.


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## Poetigress (Aug 11, 2009)

*nods* Back when they were going to put out print issues, they were going to pay in copies (1 copy, I believe), but now it looks as if they've changed plans and will be an online-only magazine. It'd be nice if they could offer a token payment (I've seen some flash fiction mags pay $1 or $2 via PayPal per piece), but that's not always possible for online venues.

Just a reminder to everybody, always read the submission guidelines carefully before you send something to any market. If you don't see something mentioned (payment, exclusivity, rights, word count, preferred formatting, etc.), drop a line to the editor and ask before submitting your work.

Fooz, the print-to-online switch may also answer your question about them putting an issue out before adding them to the list. I haven't read things through all that closely, but they do have content on the site already.


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## foozzzball (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah, but I can't see any evidence of actual fiction up there. I am a little leery to post a 'regular market' that has yet to, well. Become regular.


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## panzergulo (Sep 14, 2009)

I was just randomly browsing FA when I noticed a link, given from a writer to a writer. Apparently there's some new place to send furry fiction, so I thought you might want to know.

http://zombiepugs.com/

I didn't venture further than the front page and it seems pretty new and quiet, but I guess the only way to get more members for them is to advertise them... so, foozzz, if you feel this qualifies, it's a new site for your list.


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## foozzzball (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks for that one - unfortunately, they don't seem to focus on the furry Fandom - it seems to be a new, small general fiction site. (I see Dr. Who fanfic, for example.) Mentioning it in this thread's a good idea, though - people who browse it can find places that don't quite fit the charter. :3


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## Poetigress (Dec 17, 2009)

Thought I'd resurrect this thread to mention that Will Sanborn's Anthro Dreams Podcast has been going strong for a while now. The blog has episode links, links to other fiction that might interest furry readers, and submission guidelines for the podcast.

http://www.anthrodreams.com/


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## Atrak (Dec 17, 2009)

This thread---------> IT'S ALIIIIVEEE!!!

Sorry, had to, since you're resurrecting a dead thread ^^ .


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## foozzzball (Dec 17, 2009)

atrakaj said:


> This thread---------> IT'S ALIIIIVEEE!!!
> 
> Sorry, had to, since you're resurrecting a dead thread ^^ .



... It's a resource thread. It doesn't die like discussions! Tsk!

Anyway!

Duly noted and editted in.


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## Atrak (Dec 17, 2009)

Yeah, I know that  . I'm just surprised Ren hasn't stickied it, but I guess he doesn't like so many stickies ^^ .


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## Poetigress (Dec 17, 2009)

It's included in the "Resources for writers" thread that is stickied.


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