# Is This A Logical Fallacy?



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

I just got done watching IHE's mindless praise of The Last Jedi.  While he is free to enjoy the film, he made an entire video basically strawmanning Star Wars fans, making the "haters" out as a vocal minority.






I've noticed a theme with stuff like this, where someone will defend something adamantly:

- They'll note a point of contention

- They'll defend the contention via argumentation

- They'll find the weakest, most petty argument they can find.

- They'll refute the weak argument, ignoring stronger, more critical ones.

This sounds like a variation of the Strawman Argument, but I'm wondering if there is a more specific fallacy name for such an act.


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## Pipistrele (Apr 16, 2018)

Eh, it's just a small YouTube review. There's a fancy disclaimer at the very start of the video, so I would advise to pay more attention to that than you did to the rest of footage.


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## PolarizedBear (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I just got done watching IHE's mindless praise of The Last Jedi.  While he is free to enjoy the film, he made an entire video basically strawmanning Star Wars fans, making the "haters" out as a vocal minority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For this kinda thing?  I'll still say strawman falacy.  When he starts up praise on a topic he will break away to bring up fan disdain after a blanket statement.
Unless there's a more specific term for it ofc.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Eh, it's just a small YouTube review. There's a fancy disclaimer at the very start of the video, so I would advise to pay more attention to that than you did to the rest of footage.



He doesn't really review the movie actually though, he just says "There were things I liked and things I didn't like"  Literally in those exact words before moving on to saying why you're so wrong to hate it.

I was more curious about the fallacy than the reviewer to be honest.


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## PolarizedBear (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> He doesn't really review the movie actually though, he just says "There were things I liked and things I didn't like"  Literally in those exact words before moving on to saying why you're so wrong to hate it.
> 
> I was more curious about the fallacy than the reviewer to be honest.


I think that's just more along the lines of the videos content just being more of an expression over a review.  If you look at it in the sense it's pretty awful at an analysis standpoint.  It's more just poorly venting for blind love of a medium without showing any reason why or why not, probably not the most intelligent video he's made but its w/e he's got passion to a degree.  If you consider a really poor argument to be a fallacy while pulling up a strawman, then ya its a pretty bad one.

If he liked it, nbd. _I still thought it was pretty damn awful tho if we just talk about the movie lol.
_


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

PolarizedBear said:


> I think that's just more along the lines of the videos content just being more of an expression over a review.  If you look at it in the sense it's pretty awful at an analysis standpoint.  It's more just poorly venting for blind love of a medium without showing any reason why or why not, probably not the most intelligent video he's made but its w/e he's got passion to a degree.  If you consider a really poor argument to be a fallacy while pulling up a strawman, then ya its a pretty bad one.
> 
> If he liked it, nbd. _I still thought it was pretty damn awful tho if we just talk about the movie lol._



I may as well change the Title to "Let's hate the Last Jedi" thread.  I shoulda probably foresaw the question being resolved in a comment or two.


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## PolarizedBear (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I may as well change the Title to "Let's hate the Last Jedi" thread.  I shoulda probably foresaw the question being resolved in a comment or two.


Sorry mate.  If it's any consolation EP.8 is always fun to hate on.


Do ya have any hopes for Solo or EP.9?


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

PolarizedBear said:


> Sorry mate.  If it's any consolation EP.8 is always fun to hate on.
> View attachment 30507
> Do ya have any hopes for Solo or EP.9?



Solo was a film I never asked for, but am willing to see.  Honestly I would prefer to see a Boba Fett movie to investigate the criminal underworld of Star Wars.  I just hope Disney makes Boba Fett climbing out of the Saarlacc Pit canon.  I don't even care if he unceremoniously retires after that, just as long as he isn't left to that demise.

Ep. 9 I'm afraid I won't be supporting.  Not unless I see multiple reviews that says it completely redeems the amount of stupid risks and mistakes the last one took.

if there's anymore hope for Star Wars films it will be in the Star Wars Stories.  Rogue One was an incredible film and it did the time period justice.

The Last Jedi was an awful film that, while appealing if watched casually, if given any semblance of critical analysis crumbles like sand through your fingers.

The prequels were bad films, but The Last Jedi is probably the most destructive one out of the created ones.  IHE makes the argument that the Prequels already ruined Star Wars so who cares about the Last Jedi, or if the old Star Wars aired today it would be torn apart...

Gee... a set of movies made in the eighties would be torn apart today?  Who woulda thought!


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## PolarizedBear (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Solo was a film I never asked for, but am willing to see.  Honestly I would prefer to see a Boba Fett movie to investigate the criminal underworld of Star Wars.  I just hope Disney makes Boba Fett climbing out of the Saarlacc Pit canon.  I don't even care if he unceremoniously retires after that, just as long as he isn't left to that demise.
> 
> Ep. 9 I'm afraid I won't be supporting.  Not unless I see multiple reviews that says it completely redeems the amount of stupid risks and mistakes the last one took.
> 
> ...


Yeah the argument is a tad nonsensical, reminds me of people originally apologizing for episode 1 by saying that C3P0 was just as annoying as him throughout 4-6.

I found myself enjoying Rogue One pretty well, it feels like a plot that can hold on its own and could be considered an acceptable entry into the series.  At least the responses and reactions from the protagonists made sense as opposed to episode 8's "ill just tell no one plan" or that senseless speech the asian lady gave Finn after jeopardizing the rebels lives.

I'm probably going to see Solo, even though I know for a fact they wont put Dash Rendar anywhere in it, but Episode9 just feels like its going to be a man crawling from a trainwreck.
Lets build up Snoke!  He's dead!
Lets make our protag always stronger than the main villain or anyone else!
Lets have *Luke try to murder a child.*


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

PolarizedBear said:


> Yeah the argument is a tad nonsensical, reminds me of people originally apologizing for episode 1 by saying that C3P0 was just as annoying as him throughout 4-6.
> 
> I found myself enjoying Rogue One pretty well, it feels like a plot that can hold on its own and could be considered an acceptable entry into the series.  At least the responses and reactions from the protagonists made sense as opposed to episode 8's "ill just tell no one plan" or that senseless speech the asian lady gave Finn after jeopardizing the rebels lives.
> 
> ...



Right.  I would honestly have no problem with Luke denying the Jedi full devotion.  In fact I think that would suit Luke well as Luke has similar traits to Anakin.  I think it would have been interesting to see Luke as a Grey Jedi; that would be a good way to introduce the Grey Jedi into the films, and it suits his character.  One of my favorite lines before we learn about the Ben Solo bit is that the Jedi viewing themselves as being the "Light" is mere vanity.

Grey Jedi offer the balance between emotion and peace; avoiding the trappings of emotionless automatons like the Jedi, but not becoming a psychopathic force-addict like the Sith.


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## Sagt (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I just got done watching IHE's mindless praise of The Last Jedi.  While he is free to enjoy the film, he made an entire video basically strawmanning Star Wars fans, making the "haters" out as a vocal minority.





ResolutionBlaze said:


> He doesn't really review the movie actually though, he just says "There were things I liked and things I didn't like"  Literally in those exact words before moving on to saying why you're so wrong to hate it.
> 
> I was more curious about the fallacy than the reviewer to be honest.


I think the video was primarily about giving his thoughts in response to the backlash this film got, which was largely overblown in internet circles, rather than a review of the film itself. That said, he definitely did give his opinion on the movie, and it was more than "literally" one sentence - see 7:08 and onwards. I'll mention that it wasn't "mindless praise" either, unless that's what you categorise any sort of appreciation of this film. In fact, it wasn't even all praise, as he talked about the things he thought were good, as well as the things he thought were done poorly.

I mean, his video really wasn't as one-dimensional as you're making it out to be.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Solo was a film I never asked for, but am willing to see.  Honestly I would prefer to see a Boba Fett movie to investigate the criminal underworld of Star Wars.  I just hope Disney makes Boba Fett climbing out of the Saarlacc Pit canon.  I don't even care if he unceremoniously retires after that, just as long as he isn't left to that demise.
> 
> Ep. 9 I'm afraid I won't be supporting.  Not unless I see multiple reviews that says it completely redeems the amount of stupid risks and mistakes the last one took.
> 
> ...


The Last Jedi wasn't perfect, but it really doesn't deserve to be treated as a bad film, or as being worse than the prequels.

The prequels had cringy dialogue, bad acting, special effects that aged poorly, and the films were, for a large portion, just overly long laser gun and light saber fights (especially the third film). The Last Jedi was unconventional and it had its faults, but it was ultimately still a good film. I guess this sort of thing is pretty subjective, but I'd say it's quite unfair and not very thoughtful to call this film awful, critically.

It wasn't the best film of the year, I'd reckon, but it was still entertaining and had plenty of aspects to appreciate.

He said it in his video - people are affected by the negativity bias.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Lcs said:


> The Last Jedi wasn't perfect, but it really doesn't deserve to be treated as a bad film, or as being worse than the prequels.
> 
> The prequels had cringy dialogue, bad acting, special effects that aged poorly, and the films were, for a large portion, just overly long laser gun and light saber fights (especially the third film). The Last Jedi was unconventional and it had its faults, but it was ultimately still a good film. I guess this sort of thing is pretty subjective, but *I'd say it's quite unfair and not very thoughtful to call this film awful, critically.*
> 
> ...



Critically, the film IS awful and will NOT age well.  Nonsense plotlines, forced romances, a Mary Sue character, anti-climatic resolutions that had one and a half movies of buildup, stupid motivations, ridiculous humor in places it shouldn't have been resulting in a breaking of tone....

Gee, sounds a lot like the Prequels, don't it?  In any other movie it would be roasted to bits, but because it's Star Wars it gets a free pass because it "looks pretty and sounds nice"... that defense sure sounds AWFULLY FAMILIAR.

The Prequels, however bad they were, had mild success when the second and third films came out and didn't become a meme until years after.  This film has been out for months and is already more hated collectively than the entire Prequel's lifespan.  The Prequels were bad, for sure, but at least they weren't as destructive as The Last Jedi.

So you can't just say "eeeh you're under Negativity Bias, I used a psychological term so I'm right" ignoring the basic fallacies that both IHE and yourself are committing.

Both of you seem to be committing a Strawman by summarizing the actual criticisms of the film as "not a big deal" without putting any sort of critical thinking yourselves into the film, addressing only the weakest arguments against the film (I've seen VERY few people say the film was worse than the Prequels).  And I'm not trying to sound like an asshole when I say that, but I mean, you can't shun me for despising the Last Jedi and tell me my criticisms are ill-conceived or overdramatic but you can't provide a proper defense WHY they're overdramatic other than "Well the last films were worse" or "But Negativity Bias..." especially since there's thousands of videos doing detailed and analytical critiques of the film itself.

You can dismiss them as mindless nitpicks but that just goes to show your own bias.  Delving into the opponent's bias to prove a point is pointless because you have to take into account all your biases at the same time.  If you're not willing to do that don't say a word about biases.

People certainly weren't kind to Warcraft for it's forced romance, as a result it got horrible ratings despite not being too horrible of a film.  Yet in Star Wars it's given a free pass.


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## Sagt (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Critically, the film IS awful and will NOT age well.


In your opinion.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Nonsense plotlines, forced romances, a Mary Sue character, anti-climatic resolutions that had one and a half movies of buildup, stupid motivations, ridiculous humor in places it shouldn't have been resulting in a breaking of tone....
> 
> Gee, sounds a lot like the Prequels, don't it?  In any other movie it would be roasted to bits, but because it's Star Wars it gets a free pass because it "looks pretty and sounds nice".
> 
> ...


Look, I'm not intending to get involved in some drawn out debate here about a film that I didn't even think was that brilliant. I'm really not passionate enough about this to do that, or to "shun" you over your interpretation of it, especially considering how subjective this is. I liked it and don't think it's deserving of being "despised", but it's not a film I thought was that special. I mostly came into this topic because you were (ironically) misrepresenting IHEs video.

Since you pushed for it pretty hard though:
I don't agree with every one of the critiques you listed just now, but I do acknowledge that the film had its faults. With that being said, I think the video linked already made the case about what was done well in the film, and overall I think it does a better job at giving a nuanced review of the film, instead of just focusing on the negatives.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Lcs said:


> In your opinion.
> 
> 
> Look, I'm not intending to get involved in some drawn out debate here about a film that I didn't even think was that brilliant. I'm really not passionate enough about this to do that, or to "shun" you over your interpretation of it, especially considering how subjective this is. I liked it and don't think it's deserving of being "despised", but it's not a film I thought was that special. I mostly came into this topic because you were (ironically) misrepresenting IHEs video.
> ...



I posted the video here.  It would be very difficult for me to misrepresent the argument presented.  The answers he gave for liking the film were so vague and it lacked any actual criticism that I don't think I was far off.  Sure, he said there were things he didn't like, but often times he brushed them off as "no big deal" or that fans should "look for the good instead of the bad in things" (even though I would call him a hypocrite for saying that considering his content of picking easy targets and looking for everything bad in them).

52% of people despised this film.  There are numerous reviews and analysis videos that go into depth of why this film was so destructive to the Star Wars brand.  And after waiting years, we get an announcement for more Star Wars, and we see the potential of it being good.

Instead we get one mediocre movie, and a film that throws everything that movie set up out the window.


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