# First Contact



## LizardKing (Apr 29, 2010)

So I was reading this article about Stephen Hawking's idea that contact with aliens should be avoided, and it really does make a lot of sense.

Of course it's impossible to judge how aliens might react to finding us, as we only have ourselves to go by. This is not a comforting thought. History is filled with scenarios where the more "civilized" cultures go and take over land and resources from those considered "primitive". For non-humans, it's outright extinction. Certainly any species capable of reaching us from such a vast distance would probably consider us primitive in comparison.

So maybe they get here and they decide to have a look at us first, just in case we're actually worth preserving. What do they see? War, rape, murder, slums, millions of people dying of hunger while others can't even move their incredible bulk, amazingly powerful nuclear technology almost entirely used purely to destroy things, entire ecosystems destroyed or polluted, et cetera, et fucking cetera. 

Maybe it is better that, for now at least, aliens _don't_ show up.

Note: This is not a "zomg hoomans suck" thread, this is purely about the reaction of an alien species upon finding Earth.


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## Thatch (Apr 29, 2010)

Well, we can either encounter a single species with our own mentality, and we're fucked, or there can already be an organised galactic society. In the latter case, we might NOT be fucked.

I doubt that if there is no orginsed galactic society, a single civilisation would see us as more that suckers to exploit.

We should first develop efficient space travel. Than we can at least hope for being treated seriously.


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

I happen to agree with him. We have _no idea_ how an alien species would react on finding Earth. Maybe they have a post-scarcity society and we have nothing to worry about, maybe they don't and raiding the Earth for resources isn't a far fetched idea. The point is, the more advanced we are by the time we make contact with aliens, the better off we will be. There is no rush, we have time. 

As an aside I don't think they would care to much about the current state of human politics if they did come down now. They would certainly see it as barbaric or primitive, but in all likelihood they acted in a similar fashion at some point in their history and I would think they can recognize that. There is also the distinct possibility that not all aliens have our "killing is always bad" morality and may see the situation we have on Earth now as a perfectly healthy environment for a society to mature in.


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## Tabasco (Apr 29, 2010)

They'd see our porn and /wrist

In all seriousness, we'd probably majorly freak them out.


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## ArielMT (Apr 29, 2010)

The warning assumes that aliens would be as socially evolved as humans, and let's face it, humanity as a whole is downright primitive with regards to societal evolution.  That, more than our lack of technological advancements, is why we haven't sent any manned probes back to our own moon, let alone to Mars or elsewhere.

Alien life forms with the ability to reach us would have to be as socially more advanced than us as they would be technologically.  If not, they'd get somewhere, but not very far, and not far enough to reach us.

Even if aliens would be looking for resources and not life, I once read that the odds of there being worlds rich in resources is greater than the odds of there being worlds with life, and it's usually less troublesome to mine for resources without additional threats like teeing off the local life forms, much like you wouldn't risk stirring a hornet's nest.

Anyway, I believe that if aliens are out there and have formed some sort of galactic or intergalactic civilization, then they'd investigate us very thoroughly before deciding to attempt contact with us.  I also believe that the way they'd do it, to remove as much chance for misunderstanding as possible, is to embed agents among us, essentially to become us, and report back what we expect of them and what we take for granted that might be alien to them.


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## Takun (Apr 29, 2010)

Stephen Hawking is an alien... and a nerd.  He left his home planet for Earth and now doesn't want the jock aliens to find him.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

I hope that the reaction of an alien ship upon finding earth is melting under our laser barrages.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

Don't worry we won't see aliens for about 500 years. Then they'll probably "glass" a few planets and Master Chief will save us. 



Takun said:


> Stephen Hawking is an alien... and a nerd.  He left his home planet for Earth and now doesn't want the jock aliens to find him.


Nice. xD


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> I hope that the reaction of an alien ship upon finding earth is melting under our laser barrages.


haha that would be fucking awesome. 



ArielMT said:


> The warning assumes that aliens would be as  socially evolved as humans, and let's face it, humanity as a whole is  downright primitive with regards to societal evolution.


Humans are not "socially primitive," and I very much doubt such a thing can be said to exist. Humans have a particular way of seeing the world and certain general behavior patterns as a result of their biology. Aliens, likewise, would have certain behavior patterns that may or may not approximate ours. As I said before it is entirely possible that an alien species can see the current situation on Earth as a _good thing_ for societies to develop in. There is more than one way to look at the world and assuming that aliens will simply see human society as backwards is as problematic as assuming anything else about aliens.


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## Irreverent (Apr 29, 2010)

ITT: Steven Hawking rips off the Drake Equation for personal gain.

Any technology that has superluminal drive has the ability to gamma sterilize the Earth from orbit....Pluto's orbit. We'd never see what hit us.   Who makes 1st contact with microbes (Us!) anyway?


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 29, 2010)

I think Avatar is the most accurate and realistic picture of the future, and the Na'vi are just peaceloving, market worshipping primitives whose way of life is being trampled by those god damned alien liberals, with their obsession with, um, stuff that isn't a syncretism of xianity and market fundamentalism. EXCEPT OH WAIT! THE FUTURE IS NOW!!!


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

I think first contact scenario that doesn't involve instant death from planet sterilization rays might do us some good, even if the aliens are out to rape and pillage. For the first time Earth will be forced to act as a planet. Forced cooperation might do the human race some good.


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## SnowFox (Apr 29, 2010)

If any nasty aliens ever turn up I'm sure the Doctor will turn up just in time to protect us...

Because he's totally real right?

right?


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## ArielMT (Apr 29, 2010)

SnowFox said:


> If any nasty aliens ever turn up I'm sure the Doctor will turn up just in time to protect us...
> 
> Because he's totally real right?
> 
> right?



Someone must've dumped an antique phone booth-like thing that says "police box" outside my office door.  It wasn't there this morning.


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## Zseliq (Apr 29, 2010)

The would eat us like cattle.


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## ArielMT (Apr 29, 2010)

In before Soylent Green.


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## Misterraptor (Apr 29, 2010)

Spock!


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## Tewin Follow (Apr 29, 2010)

LK, I adore this thread and these kinds of conversations.
And I guess you, by extension.

I'ma read the article and contribute and everything!


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## Tao (Apr 29, 2010)

Well, as Stephen Hawking said, the probability of the aliens being friendly is very low. And most likely they will leech the resources from our planet.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

Faris said:


> Well, as Stephen Hawking said, the probability of the aliens being friendly is very low. And most likely they will leech the resources from our planet.



That or be some sort of anthro species thing, forcing us to breed with them... :V


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## Irreverent (Apr 29, 2010)

Faris said:


> Well, as Stephen Hawking said, the probability of the aliens being friendly is very low. And most likely they will leech the resources from our planet.



It wasnt Hawking...it was Drake!  Hawking is ripping off the Drake Equation for his new tv show.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> It wasnt Hawking...it was Drake!  Hawking is ripping off the Drake Equation for his new tv show.


Sure old man, we believe you. :V


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## Tewin Follow (Apr 29, 2010)

RAR.

SO:
If they were within our solar system, we would know; so intelligent life must be beyond it... and if this life has the technology to reach us from an older solar system, then they would probably be millions of years ahead of us. And therefore advanced douchebags.

Our only hope is they come as ill-prepared as the aliens in _Signs_.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> Our only hope is they come as ill-prepared as the aliens in _Signs_.


  Their flaw wasn't that they were ill-prepared.  Their flaw was that they were _fucking stupid on a whole_.  "Let's invade the Acid Planet populated by the Acid People and their Acid Animal Friends.  That occasionally has torrential downpours of Acid from their sky."


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## RailRide (Apr 29, 2010)

Whether Drake/Hawking/some random loon on the street is right or not, we've been spewing all manner of radio transmissions out into space for so long that if there _are_ malevolent extraterrestrial societies out there with the technology to reach our neck of the woods, we're boned as soon as they get within earshot of the first transmissions 

I mean, aren't we looking for the same thing with SETI? (minus the ability to reach out and plunder someone).

---PCJ


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## Russ (Apr 29, 2010)

It really depends on the conditions under which the contact is made. Consider our relations with "uncontacted" tribes in Amazon today. There were times of hostility in the past and poachers and foresters occasionally encroach in their territorries but as a whole, we have agreed to just leave them alone. An alien race recoginising us as a civilisation may follow a similar kind of Prime Directive.

Here is another possibility I read elsewhere: The accounts of alien kidnappings (being taken to foreign locations, intrusive probing, inspections whatsoever that don't seem to have an overall purpose, "tagging" people with tracking devices and etc...) seem awfully similar to what we do when we track animals, particularly endangered types. What if Earth is merely a type of wildlife preserve aliens stay away (except when their zoologists go down for tests)?

Or better: What if Earth is a planet-sized reality show


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## Tao (Apr 29, 2010)

Bloodshot_Eyes said:


> That or be some sort of anthro species thing, forcing us to breed with them... :V



Wait, what's wrong with that?


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

RailRide said:


> Whether Drake/Hawking/some random loon on the street is right or not, we've been spewing all manner of radio transmissions out into space for so long that if there _are_ malevolent extraterrestrial societies out there with the technology to reach our neck of the woods, we're boned as soon as they get within earshot of the first transmissions



iirc radio transmissions degrade to a point indistinguishable from background radiation not too far out into space.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

Faris said:


> Wait, what's wrong with that?


Have you seen the movie "Teeth"?


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## Tewin Follow (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Their flaw wasn't that they were ill-prepared.  Their flaw was that they were _fucking stupid on a whole_.  "Let's invade the Acid Planet populated by the Acid People and their Acid Animal Friends.  That occasionally has torrential downpours of Acid from their sky."



You are so awesome right now. 

In their defence, the aliens we saw were probably just dispensible scouts with a vauge mission, because at the end you hear that the ships left without them.

I figure they were all "whatever, send some drone guys in and see if there's access to XYZ Valuable Resorce without the Acid People bothering us."


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## Tao (Apr 29, 2010)

Bloodshot_Eyes said:


> Have you seen the movie "Teeth"?



No...

Is it anything like anal probing?


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

Faris said:


> No...
> 
> Is it anything like anal probing?


You wish, huh, foxboi... 
They have teeth in their vagina...


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## Tewin Follow (Apr 29, 2010)

Russ said:


> Here is another possibility I read elsewhere: The accounts of alien kidnappings (being taken to foreign locations, intrusive probing, inspections whatsoever that don't seem to have an overall purpose, "tagging" people with tracking devices and etc...) seem awfully similar to what we do when we track animals, particularly endangered types. What if Earth is merely a type of wildlife preserve aliens stay away (except when their zoologists go down for tests)?



This is bloody brilliant, I've never heard this one before._
Share more of these theories._ -awe-

Seriously, this stuff is so intersting.


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## Tao (Apr 29, 2010)

Bloodshot_Eyes said:


> You wish, huh, foxboi...
> They have teeth in their vagina...



DO NOT WANT


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## ArielMT (Apr 29, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> iirc radio transmissions degrade to a point indistinguishable from background radiation not too far out into space.



Depends on the transmitter's power output, but any radio transmission eventually becomes as weak as the cosmic background given enough distance.  Radio wave propagation follows the inverse square law in free space.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Russ said:


> It really depends on the conditions under which the contact is made. Consider our relations with "uncontacted" tribes in Amazon today. There were times of hostility in the past and poachers and foresters occasionally encroach in their territorries but as a whole, we have agreed to just leave them alone. An alien race recoginising us as a civilisation may follow a similar kind of Prime Directive.


  The big concern is we're assuming a mind-set similar to our own.  What if the interstellar Aliens are more like, say, a Hard Sci-Fi version of the Tyranids or Flood?  Not akin as in ships of biological matter, but stripping entire solar systems of life and raw materials?  Or, worse, Hard Sci-Fi Replicators?



Russ said:


> Or better: What if Earth is a planet-sized reality show


  Forget about the Gelgameks Russ.



Harebelle said:


> In their defence, the aliens we saw were probably just dispensible scouts with a vauge mission, because at the end you hear that the ships left without them.


  Hm, what if instead it was their form of genetic culling?

"Hey guys, we're sending you on nice vacation that you won in a intergalactic lottery!"



Harebelle said:


> I figure they were all "whatever, send some drone guys in and see if there's access to XYZ Valuable Resorce without the Acid People bothering us."


 _Planet of Acid_.  If they wanted resources, there are better bets than the Planet of Acid.


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## SnowFox (Apr 29, 2010)

Surely any aliens that have such advanced technology would be able to synthesize any element/mineral/whatever they needed out of lighter elements that they could find anywhere without having to bother a planet with life on it.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Stephen Hawking is over rated, there's several scientists far smarter than him.
If a alien species was advanced enough to travel all the distance to see us, they wouldn't see us as a threat in any matter.


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## Irreverent (Apr 29, 2010)

Bloodshot_Eyes said:


> Sure old man, we believe you. :V



*smacks with his cane*



CommodoreKitty said:


> iirc radio transmissions degrade to a point indistinguishable from background radiation not too far out into space.


and


ArielMT said:


> Depends on the transmitter's power output, but any radio transmission eventually becomes as weak as the cosmic background given enough distance.  Radio wave propagation follows the inverse square law in free space.



Sort of.  There are some frequency ranges that do travel very well, which is why SETI is looking in a very narrow band, about 2.5mHz either side of 1.4gHz.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> *smacks with his cane*


OW DAMMIT!!! 
I was kidding...


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## Fuzzy Alien (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm of the opinion that any alien civilizations with the capabilities and resources required for intergalactic (or beyond) travel would have no need or even desire to raid Earth for its insignificant pool of resources. Carl Sagan always warned of Earth-centric schools of thought which assumed that Earth would somehow even be valuable to an alien species for anything other than neutral exploration and the cataloging of the universe. Most of you, and Hawking, seem to have fallen into this Earth-centric way of thinking. :3


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Fuzzy Alien said:


> Most of you, and Hawking, seem to have fallen into this Earth-centric way of thinking. :3



Well considering we're the most interesting biological critters around within a couple thousand AU's distance, can you really blame us?


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## Irreverent (Apr 29, 2010)

Fuzzy Alien said:


> I'm of the opinion that any alien civilizations with the capabilities and resources required for intergalactic (or beyond) travel would have no need or even desire to raid Earth for its insignificant pool of resources. Carl Sagan always warned of Earth-centric schools of thought which assumed that Earth would somehow even be valuable to an alien species for anything other than neutral exploration and the cataloging of the universe. Most of you, and Hawking, seem to have fallen into this Earth-centric way of thinking. :3



Its likely that any technology that has the power supply for superluminal drive could probably synthesize anything else they need while under way.  Its possible tho, that the sheer convenience of scooping up ready to use elements and trace minerals en-route may still make the Earth a convenient place for topping off.

All things considered, its easier (though still non trivial) to harvest water and trace organic compounds from Earth than from a gas giant.


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

Inventing superluminal travel does not mean you have eliminated the need for resources. It does not mean you have abandoned all forms of conflict or "moved beyond" bigotry or hatred. It does not mean every aspect of your technology or culture is hyper-advanced and science-y and shit. All it means is that you have invented a form of superluminal travel. They may not even be that advanced (or that kind of travel may not be possible) and they may come in on a conventional ship. Point is, you can't draw many conclusions about the nature of an alien species, or even the nature of their technology, if the only thing you know about them is that they have faster than light travel. The only accurate statement you could make about them is "they have more advanced technology than us," but anything outside of that is crazy speculation.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Inventing superluminal travel does not mean you have eliminated the need for resources. It does not mean you have abandoned all forms of conflict or "moved beyond" bigotry or hatred. It does not mean every aspect of your technology or culture is hyper-advanced and science-y and shit. All it means is that you have invented a form of superluminal travel. They may not even be that advanced (or that kind of travel may not be possible) and they may come in on a conventional ship. Point is, you can't draw many conclusions about the nature of an alien species, or even the nature of their technology, if the only thing you know about them is that they have faster than light travel. The only accurate statement you could make about them is "they have more advanced technology than us," but anything outside of that is crazy speculation.


You forget, Commodore, we're the worst species in existence and nothing comes anywhere close to matching us in our evil evil bigotry or hate :mrgreen:


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> All things considered, its easier (though still non trivial) to harvest water and trace organic compounds from Earth than from a gas giant.


Not really, sure it is easier but nowhere near the amount of materials you could get from sol.
Chances are our first encounter will just be a ship coming out of hyperspace(or whatever they use) flying near the surface of the sun, getting energy and all the stuff, then going back into hyperspace.
From a engineering standpoint it be pretty fucking stupid to not use the sun instead.
[/thread]


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## LizardKing (Apr 29, 2010)

It's not necessarily resources that would be valuable to them - any craft traveling such vast distances is probably already equipped for such travel - but rather the fact it is suitable for habitation (assuming the aliens are similar in requirements to us of course). It could be a valuable place to colonize, a self-sustaining food source, or even little more than an expensive holiday location. 

Will reply more when I'm not tired.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> It's not necessarily resources that would be valuable to them - any craft traveling such vast distances is probably already equipped for such travel - but rather the fact it is suitable for habitation (assuming the aliens are similar in requirements to us of course). It could be a valuable place to colonize, a self-sustaining food source, or even little more than an expensive holiday location.
> 
> Will reply more when I'm not tired.


It would be alot better to live in spaceships.
Pretty much the only thing living on planets has going for it is the open spaces.


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## Shaui (Apr 29, 2010)

lolvatar reference?


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Here's how I see it
Type 1 civilization might destroy us, considering how much time they would spend getting here, either they didn't know we were here or the idea of living on a planet by the time they got here would be completely foreign to them.
Type 2 civilization would drop by and go, "hi guys, just recharging the ships engines using your sun"
Type 3 civilization wouldn't even care.

Also chances are type 2 and 3 civilizations would not even have organic bodies, chances are type 2 civilizations would have a core where everyone's mind runs in a virtual environment with only a couple mobile platforms to perform specific tasks.
Type 3 would only have the core and would be advance enough to perform tasks remotely.


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## Azure (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Their flaw wasn't that they were ill-prepared.  Their flaw was that they were _fucking stupid on a whole_.  "Let's invade the Acid Planet populated by the Acid People and their Acid Animal Friends.  That occasionally has torrential downpours of Acid from their sky."


You need to watch ALL OF THESE!!!.

You'll enjoy them, I promise.


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## Torrijos-sama (Apr 29, 2010)

Let us hope that the Alien Species is as gullible as we are, and as they head towards our planet in pods as strong as the Lunar Module, that we can nuke them out of space and time.


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## Ranzun the Dragon-Shark (Apr 29, 2010)

Traveling towards Earth so far away would almost be virtually impossible. Going at "hyperspeed" or "warp drive" is impossible. The ions pressing against something going like that will have a huge radiation overdrive inside such spacecraft and is instantly fatal to almost every organism. This can kill you within seconds. To protect against such thing, you need an unrealistic amount of lead, which would make it almost impossible to go up to such speed and do such things, due to the mass.


Edit: Not weight XD MASS!


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Apr 29, 2010)

I, for one, welcome our alien overloads and look forward to being turned into mush to fuel their ship's computer clock.


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## Ranzun the Dragon-Shark (Apr 29, 2010)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> I, for one, welcome our alien overloads and look forward to being turned into mush to fuel their ship's computer clock.


Nu


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Ranzun the Dragon-Shark said:


> Traveling towards Earth so far away would almost be virtually impossible. Going at "hyperspeed" or "warp drive" is impossible.


It is possible, it's just sci-fi got a hold of that term and you hear it at every movie now.  The problem with ftl is if you screw up you could create a micro universe instead with no way in or out.

Personally speaking if I was a super advance alien species, I would create a micro star for energy and just feed it and a station controlling it, where my species would live.
OR
Control a local star for a power source and steer the system where I wanted it to, even use the star for ftl.  Wouldn't be hard considering the energy source would be significantly larger than what I needed to transport.
OR
Have the ship jump from star to star hijacking energy from them.

Personally I would have a station orbiting a star on the edge of the corona where everyone would live and draw energy from the star.


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## Irreverent (Apr 29, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> The only accurate statement you could make about them is "they have more advanced technology than us," but anything outside of that is crazy speculation.



The second accurate statement is "The laws of thermodynamics (probably) also apply to them too."


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## 8-bit (Apr 29, 2010)

ArielMT said:


> Anyway, I believe that if aliens are out there and have formed some sort of galactic or intergalactic civilization, then they'd investigate us very thoroughly before deciding to attempt contact with us.  I also believe that the way they'd do it, to remove as much chance for misunderstanding as possible, is to embed agents among us, essentially to become us, and report back what we expect of them and what we take for granted that might be alien to them.



That movie sucked. Keeanu is NOT a very diverse actor


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## Taralack (Apr 29, 2010)

I hope they find turians soon.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Considering we haven't heard anything yet, it's a fairly good bet there aren't any type 3 civilizations in our galaxy, so we're fairly safe for now.  Cause that means if there are aliens out there in our galaxy then chances are they're not a technological level where they could get here in our lifetime.


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## CAThulu (Apr 29, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> It wasnt Hawking...it was Drake!  Hawking is ripping off the Drake Equation for his new tv show.



Could he be referencing it? *iz a huge fan of Hawking*

Yes, he said '"To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens  perfectly rational...' which lends credit to the idea of ripping off Drake.  But those in the astronomy sciences circles know about the Drake Equation and Hawking with his mathematical brain would be too smart to think that he could get away with ripping that one off. 

It could be he's just boasting about his big sexy brain.


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## CAThulu (Apr 29, 2010)

AzurePhoenix said:


> You need to watch ALL OF THESE!!!.
> 
> You'll enjoy them, I promise.



I loved the Clone Wars, and am avidly awaiting the last installment.  They're awesome :-D


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

CAThulu said:


> Could he be referencing it? *iz a huge fan of Hawking*
> 
> Yes, he said '"To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens  perfectly rational...' which lends credit to the idea of ripping off Drake.  But those in the astronomy sciences circles know about the Drake Equation and Hawking with his mathematical brain would be too smart to think that he could get away with ripping that one off.
> 
> It could be he's just boasting about his big sexy brain.


It's Hawking, knowing the guy he's ripping of Drake.

Honestly chances are there's tons of life out there, but the vast majority of it would be non-sentient, the majority of the rest would be type 0 civilizations, very few type 1 civilizations, few and far between type 2 and chances are less than 3 type 3 civilizations in our galaxy.  Considering we haven't found anything yet.  Gliese 581 C & D were both found to be barely habitable and it's only a couple lightyears away.  The thing is if there was intelligent life there we would've heard from them decades ago.

tl;dr chances are there are aliens, just majority of them would be non-intelligient.


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## Telnac (Apr 29, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> So I was reading this article about Stephen Hawking's idea that contact with aliens should be avoided, and it really does make a lot of sense.


Really?  That made _*no sense*_ whatsoever!

I don't care what Stephen Hawking's IQ is, the fact is that humanity have _*nothing *_to offer an alien species who'd be hostile enough to conquer other civilizations but advanced enough to travel to other star systems.  Really, the only reason an advanced alien species has to conquer us is simply for the lulz.

All of Earth's non-biological natural resources can be found in abundance off world, and would require far less resources to get.  As for stuff made by the Earth's biosphere, biological agents native to the alien species would be _*far*_ more likely to be useful to them than anything on Earth.  Not only that, but habitable worlds not harboring intelligent life are likely to be far more common than ones harboring life.  So even if they did want to colonize a habitable world with some superbug that would do whatever for them, they'd be far more likely to visit one that isn't broadcasting signals than one that is.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

AzurePhoenix said:


> You need to watch ALL OF THESE!!!.
> 
> You'll enjoy them, I promise.





CAThulu said:


> I loved the Clone Wars, and am avidly awaiting the last installment.  They're awesome :-D



As he said, in case you didn't realize _Clone Wars_ has been done now too.

I enjoyed it, but I only managed to watch in half-hour chunks:  I can't watch any one thing be torn apart for more than a half hour at a time, unless the narrator has more energy.  He's great, but makes you drowsy.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Telnac said:


> the only reason an advanced alien species has to conquer us is simply for the lulz.


Either that or they're Daleks...
Uh-oh, fuck! :V


What I find stupid about the SETI program is we should start looking locally, cause a type 1 or 2 civilization locally could actually pose a serious threat.


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## Telnac (Apr 29, 2010)

Re: aliens mining the Sun or a gas giant:

If an alien species is in our star system looking for raw materials, mining asteroids & comets for them would be far easier than getting them out of the Earth, Jupiter or the Sun.  Anything with a significant gravity well doesn't make a good place to top off your spaceship's fuel tank or to use as building materials for more spaceships, colonies, whatever.


As for a warp drive:

I think a warp drive may be technically possible, but I doubt it'd ever be practical.  The energy needed to warp space is mind-boggling, much less warping space enough for your spacecraft to appear to travel beyond the speed of light.  If aliens do have the technology to go from star system to star system, I expect it would be more akin to teleporting.  Using such a jump drive would eliminate all the energy cost of accelerating & decelerating from a sizable fraction of the speed of light.  Even if we never find a way to build such a drive such that it operates at faster than light speeds, jumping at nearly light speed (with no apparent passage of time for the crew of the ship) would still allow for a functioning interstellar civilization spanning hundreds of light years or more!

So yes, I do believe it is possible that we could be contacted by an alien species.  Heck, we're already starting to do some awesome stuff with entanglement and quantum teleportation.  For all we know, we'll have spaceships capable of jumping from star system to star system in our lifetimes.  All it takes is the right set of discoveries to be made...


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

^The problem is Telnac, the energy requirements of teleporting things is incredibly enormous.  Teleporting a person would require more energy than there is in the universe.


Also yes I do know physics, in case you are wondering.


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## Telnac (Apr 29, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> ^The problem is Telnac, the energy requirements of teleporting things is incredibly enormous.  Teleporting a person would require more energy than there is in the universe.


Yes and no.  Depends on the technology you're talking about.  Star Trek-style teleporting, where the matter is turned into energy then returned to matter at the far end?  Hell yeah!  Teleporting a soy bean would be akin to setting off an atomic bomb.

Teleportation that's simply information exchange is another matter.  That's the type of teleportation we're starting to have some success at doing.  If we can ever make that work with a person (which would be a mind-boggling challenge), you'd entangle all the information about someone's quantum state into an information stream.  The laws of quantum mechanics state that doing so would leave all your original particles intact, but in some random quantum state... in effect turning your body into a mass of goo & gas.  On the receiving pad, a ready-to-go mass of goo & gas would suddenly become... you.  That type of teleportation is an engineering nightmare, but would potentially require not all that much energy... certainly not enough to demolish cities, planets or the entire Universe.  It would, however, require a receiving pad with all the raw materials ready before anyone could teleport to that destination.  

That may not be that big of a hindrance, tho.  A probe with a mass of a few kilograms could be launched at .2c using a lunar rail gun (or something similar).  Most of the mass would be giant reflective sails, which we'd fire lasers at to slow the spacecraft down during its decades-long journey to a nearby star.  That would allow it to enter orbit around that star so that when it reaches its destination, a few grams of nanobots land on an asteroid or some other small body with the right raw materials to build a teleportation pad.  A few years later that teleportation pad is ready for business.  Even if this is the best we can ever manage, we could possibly start teleporting people & technology to nearby star systems in 150 years or so.

The type of teleportation I expect aliens to use is quantum tunneling.  That's a strange aspect of quantum mechanics that allows for a particle to simply hop from one place to another without ever crossing the space in between.  We know for a fact that this happens, but we have few ideas on how it works or how to control it.  If it can be controlled, a jump drive with that technology could allow a spacecraft to hop around the Universe possibly  using very little energy at all.  Although I expect that technology to be out of our reach for hundreds, if not millions, of years... I could be very wrong.  One "Eureka!" moment may be all it takes for us to begin building jump drives whenever.


CannonFodder said:


> Also yes I do know physics, in case you are wondering.


I never claimed you didn't.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't think he really thought this comment through all that hard.  It relies on so many assumptions that don't really hold up.
I mean, consider that it costs money and resources to go any significant distance in space, and it takes a lot of time.  It's also hazardous as all holy hell.  If it was resources they were after, they could get it in a lot of more accessible places.  Our first step off our own planet was the moon, which is also the first place we're looking to find more usable resources (minerals, energy opportunities, metals, things like that).  Any remotely sensible alien race would look close to home for that kind of thing as well.  It would be stupid to travel 50,000 light years just to start a mining operation.  Especially if you had to engage the military with the locals in order to get at those resources.  Just get your rocks from one of the billions and billions of rocky planets and moons where you can just set up a base and start mining, you know?  I mean, I guess it would make sense if they were some kind of parasitic devourers of worlds, but that's just one possibility.  And you'd have to wonder if such a rapacious and competitive civilization would survive that long without wiping itself out before it ever got here.
And anyway, the Europeans invaded and conquered the American civilizations because Europe was crowded, and there was no where else to go.  And Cortes got greedy, and the King got hand-wavey with his rules because he also got greedy.  And it occurred during a time when slavery was what held up most European economies, and so the cultural attitude was one of colonization, and so on and so forth.  My point is, that was one scenario with one set of specific reasons for why things happened the way they did.  You can't extrapolate that to an alien race coming to Earth from the gods know how far away.  The only sensible way to imagine such an encounter is to recognize that whatever we imagine would happen is going to totally not be what happens.
I know it's all speculation, but Hawking could at least have discussed it with some of the professionals in the field before announcing on his show that it would be bad.  The guys over at the SETI Institute have been thinking about these things for far longer than Hawking has; he should have called Seth Shostak and asked his opinion.


----------



## Spawtsie Paws (Apr 29, 2010)

Prime Directive   >:[


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## CannonFodder (Apr 29, 2010)

Telnac said:


> The type of teleportation I expect aliens to use is quantum tunneling.  That's a strange aspect of quantum mechanics that allows for a particle to simply hop from one place to another without ever crossing the space in between.  We know for a fact that this happens, but we have few ideas on how it works or how to control it.  If it can be controlled, a jump drive with that technology could allow a spacecraft to hop around the Universe possibly  using very little energy at all.  Although I expect that technology to be out of our reach for hundreds, if not millions, of years... I could be very wrong.  One "Eureka!" moment may be all it takes for us to begin building jump drives whenever.
> I never claimed you didn't.


I know what quantum tunnelling is.
Quantum tunnelling doesn't work that way.
If someone used that for teleporting you would be a pool of sludge at the end of the machine.


M. Le Renard said:


> I know it's all speculation, but Hawking could at least have discussed it with some of the professionals in the field before announcing on his show that it would be bad.  The guys over at the SETI Institute have been thinking about these things for far longer than Hawking has; he should have called Seth Shostak and asked his opinion.


Hawking is way over-rated.


----------



## ArielMT (Apr 29, 2010)

Ranzun the Dragon-Shark said:


> Traveling towards Earth so far away would almost be virtually impossible. Going at "hyperspeed" or "warp drive" is impossible. The ions pressing against something going like that will have a huge radiation overdrive inside such spacecraft and is instantly fatal to almost every organism. This can kill you within seconds. To protect against such thing, you need an unrealistic amount of lead, which would make it almost impossible to go up to such speed and do such things, due to the mass.
> 
> 
> Edit: Not weight XD MASS!



That assumes the only way to outrun light is to exceed the speed of light.  If enough of the right dimensions exist, then it's possible to fold space over on itself and use wormholes to outrun light at realistic velocities by shortcutting around the light speed barrier.



8-bit said:


> That movie sucked. Keeanu is NOT a very diverse actor



You lost me.  I wasn't aware I quoted a movie plot.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

ArielMT said:


> That assumes the only way to outrun light is to exceed the speed of light.  If enough of the right dimensions exist, then it's possible to fold space over on itself and use wormholes to outrun light at realistic velocities by shortcutting around the light speed barrier.


We think there are 11 dimensions according to m-theory.

Oh god I'm nerding out.

Chances are a type 3 civilization instead of having every last ship equipped with ftl, instead there would be relay points where the stations would jump them where they want to go.


----------



## GoldenJackal (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that he's said pretty much the same thing before on another Discovery show, but not in so much detail. He's right. If they have the technology to reach us, they have the technology to exploit us pretty easily. As far as we know, there is no jurisdiction in space. We could be sitting in the middle of a frontier like the wild west. There could be no consequences for their actions out here. Then again, if they claim to help, I would be cautious but would not turn a blind eye. Humanity could use another push in the right direction. As far as societies go, I'd say we're in our teen years. That's bad if you think about it.


----------



## ArielMT (Apr 30, 2010)

If anyone out there is similar enough to us, then there is indeed cause for grave concern.  However, the odds that they're enough like us for us to worry would have to be a whole lot closer to 1 than the odds that they exist at all.


----------



## Telnac (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> I know what quantum tunnelling is.
> Quantum tunnelling doesn't work that way.
> If someone used that for teleporting you would be a pool of sludge at the end of the machine.


I'll defer to your knowledge of that subject.  I love particle physics, but quantum tunneling is a bit over my head.  I have heard plenty of experts in the field say that quantum tunneling could be used to move objects any distance, provided you could somehow manage to get all the particles to jump in the same direction, for the same distance, at the same time.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

GoldenJackal said:


> I'm pretty sure that he's said pretty much the same thing before on another Discovery show, but not in so much detail. He's right. If they have the technology to reach us, they have the technology to exploit us pretty easily. As far as we know, there is no jurisdiction in space. We could be sitting in the middle of a frontier like the wild west. There could be no consequences for their actions out here. Then again, if they claim to help, I would be cautious but would not turn a blind eye. Humanity could use another push in the right direction. As far as societies go, I'd say we're in our teen years. That's bad if you think about it.


It's Stephen Hawking, he gets shit tons of money from all his books, his t.v. appearances, everything.  I know he is a good physicist but come one, there are alot smarter ones out there.  Have you even heard of Michio Kaku?


----------



## Telnac (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> It's Stephen Hawking, he gets shit tons of money from all his books, his t.v. appearances, everything.  I know he is a good physicist but come one, there are alot smarter ones out there.  Have you even heard of Michio Kaku?


Hell yeah.  I love that guy.    I think he's the early 21st Century answer to Carl Sagan.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

Telnac said:


> I'll defer to your knowledge of that subject.  I love particle physics, but quantum tunneling is a bit over my head.  I have heard plenty of experts in the field say that quantum tunneling could be used to move objects any distance, provided you could somehow manage to get all the particles to jump in the same direction, for the same distance, at the same time.


Eh, quantum tunneling is a bit of asshole.
Sure it works for electrons, but even if a super advance alien told me he made a machine to travel using that I'd say, "screw this, I'm walking".


ArielMT said:


> If anyone out there is similar enough to us, then there is indeed cause for grave concern.  However, the odds that they're enough like us for us to worry would have to be a whole lot closer to 1 than the odds that they exist at all.


I'm only worried if type 1 or 2 civiziliations are within 50 lightyears and hostile, cause that means they're not advance enough to not see us as a threat and can still come here to kick our ass.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

Telnac said:


> Hell yeah.  I love that guy.    I think he's the early 21st Century answer to Carl Sagan.


I think science channels need to stop pushing Hawking cause Kaku is better.


----------



## Telnac (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> I think science channels need to stop pushing Hawking cause Kaku is better.


I couldn't agree more!


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

What I don't get is why they still use hydrogen and oxygen for rockets instead of ions, we've had ion propulsion for years actually.  A cold war bomber was the first thing to put it to practical use, although they never had a reason to warm up the engines.  Also why doesn't the iss have the sleeping compartment spinning, the centrifugal force would keep the astronauts bones from deteriorating and they'd be able to stay up there longer, although the radiation is still a problem but then again they wouldn't need to send so many flights.


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## GoldenJackal (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> It's Stephen Hawking, he gets shit tons of money from all his books, his t.v. appearances, everything.  I know he is a good physicist but come one, there are alot smarter ones out there.  Have you even heard of Michio Kaku?



I can't argue with that, but he's still right.

Edit: And I love Michio Kaku's work.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

The main problem with the idea of aliens trying to attack us is that if they were advance enough to get here and weren't cosmologically in our backyard, then they'd have to find a way to have ftl travel and chances are by then they'd figure out how to either reverse entropy or make a naked singularity.
I know what you are saying naked singularities can't exist because then entropy would be thrown out of the window.  The thing is recent papers have theorized why we haven't seen any or why there can't be any, is because the singularity is in a single point the energy released from the infinitesimally point would be instantly dispersed because as distance increases electromagnetic waves or any waves for that matter spread out as they go.  So that means all mass/energy would be caught in the naked singularity, destroyed and then shot out as unusable energy thus not destroying the universe and keeping physics intact.
However this has not been proven because naked singularities wouldn't be able to be seen because all the energy they would emit would me seen as background radiation.
Why does this matter because the amount of energy you can harness from it could literally be unlimited.
Which would be able to power ftl travel, or anything you could possibly think of.
*theoretically though*


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## GoldenJackal (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> The main problem with the idea of aliens trying to attack us is that if they were advance enough to get here and weren't cosmologically in our backyard, then they'd have to find a way to have ftl travel and chances are by then they'd figure out how to either reverse entropy or make a naked singularity.
> I know what you are saying naked singularities can't exist because then entropy would be thrown out of the window.  The thing is recent papers have theorized why we haven't seen any or why there can't be any, is because the singularity is in a single point the energy released from the infinitesimally point would be instantly dispersed because as distance increases electromagnetic waves or any waves for that matter spread out as they go.  So that means all mass/energy would be caught in the naked singularity, destroyed and then shot out as unusable energy thus not destroying the universe and keeping physics intact.
> However this has not been proven because naked singularities wouldn't be able to be seen because all the energy they would emit would me seen as background radiation.
> Why does this matter because the amount of energy you can harness from it could literally be unlimited.
> Which would be able to power ftl travel, or anything you could possibly think of.



You humans are not supposed to have this knowledge. You will be destroyed now instead of at the determined time that was set forth in order for us to study you first. 

But seriously, what are you trying to get at? Are you saying that because they have the power to harness unlimited energy, they would not want to have anything to do with us? That they would have everything that they would need? Power does not always provide what life needs. Unless they have replicators, they still need food, water, or anything else that their biology needs. They may be on a long trip and see our planet as a good rest stop to stretch their legs, grab what they need, and bolt.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

GoldenJackal said:


> You humans are not supposed to have this knowledge. You will be destroyed now instead of at the determined time that was set forth in order for us to study you first.
> 
> But seriously, what are you trying to get at? Are you saying that because they have the power to harness unlimited energy, they would not want to have anything to do with us? That they would have everything that they would need? Power does not always provide what life needs. Unless they have replicators, they still need food, water, or anything else that their biology needs. They may be on a long trip and see our planet as a good rest stop to stretch their legs, grab what they need, and bolt.


What I am getting at if they were not right next door to us, they would need faster than light travel(that's what ftl means) and by then their technology would be so advance compared to us that it would seem downright god like.
Even a type 1 civilization would be able to be immortal, use nanites to make food,water, break down materials for air.  Wouldn't need oil or a planet to live on.

tl;dr we're not a threat and we're not valuable and we're not important, to them we're are just another race on a hunk of rock that is completely worthless in their eyes.


----------



## GoldenJackal (Apr 30, 2010)

Oh, I see. Well. If you're right you're right. There's no way of knowing either way. Might as well be cautious and avoid the mistakes humans have made in the past. That's what Steven Hawking is trying to say.


----------



## Surgat (Apr 30, 2010)

The reasons aliens could have to seeking contact with us might not even matter. Sure, the first ones we meet might be benign or even benevolent. However, once it got out, word of our existence might attract undesirable parts of their societies. 

First contact could be with something like zoologists, tourists, humanitarians, merchants, or migrant groups like Gypsies here on Earth. However, missionaries, or powerful interests (i.e. multinational corporations) could follow. Sufficiently advanced pranksters could be a pain; they could perhaps imitate mythological creatures, or create conditions people would take as signs of the apocalypse for fun. There is also the possibility of exotic pathogen transmission, or that they might bring (or export) invasive species. Tourism can cause problems as well. 

Even charity could be a problem. Donations of clothing put textile companies in out of business in some places in Africa. They could give us something for free we develop a dependency on, and then start charging, like baby formula companies did (also in Africa). Something similar could happen here, theoretically.

If we run into trouble with some aliens, even sympathetic ones might consider some other cause more important, not know what to do, or not care _quite_ enough to do anything but complain.


In addition, having technology that makes interstellar travel possible, or even economical would be no guarantee of civility. They might not prioritize equality, rationality, protecting the weak from the strong, not being quick to resort to violence, freedom of thought, speech, press, and religion etc. 

If these values were wide spread, that might decrease the chances that a society would destroy itself through war or environmental destruction and allow for science to develop. However, their advances could have come at an earlier time in their history from which they backslid. 

It's also possible that we meet ones which simply use technology developed in more progressive places, and which their governments are unable to stop or unaware of. 


Fortunately, there's a chance we could be more technologically advanced in some areas. Maybe they never got far in disciplines like computer science, or biology. Could be because of the influence of religious institutions, or something to do with the way they think. A lack of need can impede technological development too, like how Mesoamericans didn't develop metal weapons because they had plenty of obsidian, or how there was no industrial revolution in Roman times because slave labor was cheaper.  

It's also possible that they reached a certain point and just started stagnating, like Egypt, China, and India did for a long time.

A lot of the resources you can find on Earth aren't that uncommon.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

What's funny to me is I know all that and I never learn electrical systems.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Hawking is way over-rated.


Astrobiology just isn't his field.  He does black holes, and he knows them in and out better than anybody, but black holes are not aliens.

Now what's all this about quantum tunneling?  That's just a property of the probabalistic nature of particles.  Basically, you have an energy barrier of some kind, and as long as it's not infinite, there's a small chance a particle inside the barrier could exist outside of it.  So sometimes you see electrons 'jumping' places they shouldn't be able to go.
It's not teleportation.  You just centralize the electron in a weird place when you happen to measure it there.  But technically it's always been there.
Anyway... it doesn't happen on a macroscopic scale, so it's kind of a moot point.  The chances are so ridiculously small it's not even worth considering it a possibility.


----------



## LizardKing (Apr 30, 2010)

Alternatively, they might not actually have access to FTL technology, for even anything close to that. It may be more akin to being in stasis until something interesting happens. Or maybe they may just live in the ships and travel around for generations. 

Admittedly even at c it would take a vast amount of time to get anywhere, but it's still possible it could get somewhere if the navigation/refueling/repairing is automatic. Of course, if they were just randomly drifting around at that speed, the chances of running across Earth are negligible, but it's still a possibility.

And then again it might just be a psychotic Bracewell probe doing it 'for the good of the galaxy' or something.

Yes, I know, assumptions aplenty. Sue me.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Apr 30, 2010)

Surgat said:


> Even charity could be a problem. Donations of clothing put textile companies in out of business in some places in Africa. They could give us something for free we develop a dependency on, and then start charging, like baby formula companies did (also in Africa). Something similar could happen here, theoretically.



Nice post.
This actually seems likely, even if it's not the whole alien race providing the "charity", some dodgey mobster-types would exploit us.

Though what could we possibly offer as currency?


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## TashkentFox (Apr 30, 2010)

I think Stephen Hawking has finally gone off his rocker, unless it's subtle support for Nick Griffin's immigration policy.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> Alternatively, they might not actually have access to FTL technology, for even anything close to that. It may be more akin to being in stasis until something interesting happens. Or maybe they may just live in the ships and travel around for generations.
> 
> Admittedly even at c it would take a vast amount of time to get anywhere, but it's still possible it could get somewhere if the navigation/refueling/repairing is automatic. Of course, if they were just randomly drifting around at that speed, the chances of running across Earth are negligible, but it's still a possibility.
> 
> ...


The problem with near light travel is that the amount of energy would cause even hydrogen particles to tear right through your ship, cause it would be like a car hitting those plastic containers filled with water.


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## LizardKing (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> The problem with near light travel is that the amount of energy would cause even hydrogen particles to tear right through your ship, cause it would be like a car hitting those plastic containers filled with water.



Then they can go slower. The exact speed is not the point.


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## Irreverent (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> The problem with near light travel is that the amount of energy would cause even hydrogen particles to tear right through your ship, cause it would be like a car hitting those plastic containers filled with water.



I'm not sure that a subatomic particle would be that much of an issue.   A grain of rice could ruin your whole day, if it didn't flash into plasma on impact with the outer hull.    

Gamma radiation is still a concern, so you need a moderator (reaction mass?), density shielding (lead? maybe DU?) or maybe electromagnetic shielding.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> I'm not sure that a subatomic particle would be that much of an issue.   A grain of rice could ruin your whole day, if it didn't flash into plasma on impact with the outer hull.
> 
> Gamma radiation is still a concern, so you need a moderator (reaction mass?), density shielding (lead? maybe DU?) or maybe electromagnetic shielding.


The thing is if you ran into a gas cloud, it'd be like ramming head first into a nuke going off.


----------



## Thatch (Apr 30, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> I'm not sure that a subatomic particle would be that much of an issue.   A grain of rice could ruin your whole day, if it didn't flash into plasma on impact with the outer hull.



A single one, no. But the again a single grain of sand isn't going to kill you. Sanding your face of? Probably.


----------



## Irreverent (Apr 30, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> The thing is if you ran into a gas cloud, it'd be like ramming head first into a nuke going off.



Sure there's a lot of velocity, but molecules don't have much mass.  Do standard ballistics even work at near relativistic speeds?  Or do they dilate like time does?  I don't have the background.

Hell for all I know, the speed of the ship would be great enough to create a bow wave in the (albeit scant) amount of matter that is in space, pushing the gas cloud out of the way.


----------



## Thatch (Apr 30, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> Sure there's a lot of velocity, but molecules don't have much mass.  Do standard ballistics even work at near relativistic speeds?  Or do they dilate like time does?  I don't have the background.



Everything gains mass as it approaches light speed.



Irreverent said:


> Hell for all I know, the speed of the ship would be great enough to create a bow wave in the (albeit scant) amount of matter that is in space, pushing the gas cloud out of the way.



A bow wave comes from the pressure, which comes from friction. You're stuck with the problem one way or another.


On the other hand, a working near-light-speed drive that wouldn't need supernova-level energy to jump you a meter would have to work on principles that override standart physics, so it might not be a problem at all.


----------



## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

we've already made contact...
they're here now. 
among us.

[yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qj8741m2jLc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qj8741m2jLc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]


----------



## Tewin Follow (Apr 30, 2010)

The fuck?

You see his eyelids, but the second pair are a different colour. D:


----------



## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> The fuck?
> 
> You see his eyelids, but the second pair are a different colour. D:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yruabpxxqSw&playnext_from=TL&videos=Vp8IiJaKWsU

and there's more out there.
there was even one on msnbc that was even more blatant.


----------



## Thatch (Apr 30, 2010)

Maybe he has a second pair of eyelids. Like dogs.


----------



## LizardKing (Apr 30, 2010)

Oh christ don't start that shit in my thread

Make your own >:[


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## Tewin Follow (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yruabpxxqSw&playnext_from=TL&videos=Vp8IiJaKWsU
> 
> and there's more out there.
> there was even one on msnbc that was even more blatant.



What is this.

It must be someone playing a clever effects trick back in the studio.


----------



## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> What is this.
> 
> It must be someone playing a clever effects trick back in the studio.



and we're actually waging wars with them currently.

[yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XqMf3towVVI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XqMf3towVVI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]

or... they're waging wars with others of their kind.

I'm not quite sure all of them are hostile.
I know there's one in my biotech class.


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## LizardKing (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> [more bollocks]



Gtfo


----------



## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> Gtfo



OY.
I'm free to present my opinions 'eh?


----------



## Tewin Follow (Apr 30, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> Gtfo



If you kick her out, you'd have to kick me out t--

...

I'll just go. :c


----------



## LizardKing (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> OY.
> I'm free to present my opinions 'eh?



Yeah in your own damn thread

Don't derail this with your grainy video rubbish


----------



## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> Yeah in your own damn thread
> 
> Don't derail this with your grainy video rubbish




I'm just reiterating my point that we've already made contact. 

jesus christ.


----------



## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> I'm just reiterating my point that we've already made contact.
> 
> jesus christ.




Yeah but the thing is,

we haven't. Fake video is not proof of aliens already being here.


----------



## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Yeah but the thing is,
> 
> we haven't. Fake video is not proof of aliens already being here.



show me evidence that they're not here.

anyway..
you can ignore me any time. 

list of Zrcalo's weirdness:

likes guro
does taxidermy
believes in aliens


----------



## M. LeRenard (Apr 30, 2010)

Can't prove a negative.  It's up to UFO-logists to prove that we have been visited, and so far they haven't done that.  Grainy, easily-edited video footage notwithstanding.
A piece of metal with an unusual isotope ratio would be much better proof, actually.

So far as I know, running into a gas cloud in space at high velocity probably wouldn't be a big problem.  Those nebulae that you see in the Hubble pictures?  They're actually less dense than the best approximation to a vacuum anyone's ever produced in a lab.  So you'd be hitting atoms and molecules, which aren't big enough to leave holes.  They'd wear down your ship after a while, but it wouldn't be like getting hit with a billiard ball or anything like that, and you could reduce that effect even more by traveling outside of dust bands or outside of the galactic plane.
The biggest problem would be hitting anything larger than a molecule.  The mechanics of ballistics at relativistic speeds are still pretty much the same, except now your time-scales are way shorter.  So you pack a bunch of energy into a short time-span impact, and bad things happen.
Now, space isn't exactly dense with stuff, but there's enough of it out there to cause problems.  Also, if you speed toward a star near the speed of light, that star's light will start to look like really high energy gamma radiation because of the relativistic Doppler effect.  Among other hazards.  It's a tough business, interstellar travel.  Actually, the first probes an alien might want send out here would most likely be small and robotic, because that would be the cheapest option.  That's what we're planning to do, anyway.


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## Thatch (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> show me evidence that they're not here.



Ah, the standart broken logic.

If you can't provide solid evidence, something undeniable by the general public, that they ARE here, it makes no difference whether they are or not, because we can't feel their influence.


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## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

szopaw said:


> Ah, the standart broken logic.
> 
> If you can't provide solid evidence, something undeniable by the general public, that they ARE here, it makes no difference whether they are or not, because we can't feel their influence.



we wouldnt know their influence if they were here and if they werent. 
solid evidence is always proven and disproven with the same piece of evidence.

just because you have cured cancer in one person doesnt mean you've cured cancer in general.


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## Thatch (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> we wouldnt know their influence if they were here and if they werent.



That's what I said.



Zrcalo said:


> solid evidence is always proven and disproven with the same piece of evidence.



Try to make sense, please.


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## Telnac (Apr 30, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> So far as I know, running into a gas cloud in space at high velocity probably wouldn't be a big problem.  Those nebulae that you see in the Hubble pictures?  They're actually less dense than the best approximation to a vacuum anyone's ever produced in a lab.  So you'd be hitting atoms and molecules, which aren't big enough to leave holes.  They'd wear down your ship after a while, but it wouldn't be like getting hit with a billiard ball or anything like that, and you could reduce that effect even more by traveling outside of dust bands or outside of the galactic plane.
> The biggest problem would be hitting anything larger than a molecule.


Actually, moving close to C, gas is a bigger problem than you might expect.

At those speeds, gas won't form a bow shock or any sort of air resistance we'd be used to.  Fluid physics only applies if one substance is moving past another.  When your moving close to C, the gas atoms would have to actually _*exceed*_ C to get out of the way.  Since they can't, they'll just do the next best thing: start flying through the ship itself.  Flying through a nebula at near C would be like encountering an ultra-intense beam of cosmic radiation.  The closer to C you get, the more energy each atom packs and the harder it is to stop before it starts to fry electronics... or the crew.

An asteroid the size of a grain of rice might destroy a spacecraft on such a journey... if they are unlucky enough to hit one.  But interstellar gas would make near-C travel lethal every single time.

There are ways of accomplishing interstellar travel, but flying around in spaceships moving near the speed of light or in excess of it (if such a thing is even possible) is not the way to go.


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## ArielMT (Apr 30, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> I'm not sure that a subatomic particle would be that much of an issue.   A grain of rice could ruin your whole day, if it didn't flash into plasma on impact with the outer hull.
> 
> Gamma radiation is still a concern, so you need a moderator (reaction mass?), density shielding (lead? maybe DU?) or maybe electromagnetic shielding.



Arthur C. Clarke solved that problem in _The Songs of Distant Earth_ by having the main ship use a cone of ice water kept ahead of the ship act as the ablation shield, punching a dust-free hole through space in the process.


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## M. LeRenard (Apr 30, 2010)

Telnac said:


> At those speeds, gas won't form a bow shock or any sort of air resistance we'd be used to.  Fluid physics only applies if one substance is moving past another.


Well, fluid physics doesn't apply here anyway because the density of the gas is so low.  If you had something massive like a supernova explosion, then you'd see fluid dynamics, but a teeny-weeny little space-ship isn't going to create that kind of shockwave.  There'd be very little propagation of force, because it's a near-vacuum.


> When your moving close to C, the gas atoms would have to actually _*exceed*_ C to get out of the way.


Well, if you're going forward at c, the atoms are moving relative to you at c, and any change of direction requires an acceleration, which would put it past c.  So yeah, I think you're right.  But getting a spaceship up to c is impossible, right?  I'm thinking most ships would want to go more like .9c, or something that doesn't require the entirety of mankind's energy production over the past 30,000 years to reach.  Which would lessen the effect.
Either way, it's not a real convenient way of doing things.  Magnetic fields would also be a problem, since you'd be moving past a bunch of charged particles at the friggin' speed of light.


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## Lukar (Apr 30, 2010)

BlueberriHusky said:


> They'd see our porn and /wrist
> 
> In all seriousness, we'd probably majorly freak them out.



^This.


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 30, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> and we're actually waging wars with them currently.
> 
> [yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XqMf3towVVI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XqMf3towVVI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]
> 
> ...



IQ depleted
core breach imminent
kiss ass goodbye
oh shi--


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## Telnac (Apr 30, 2010)

Wolf-Bone said:


> IQ depleted
> core breach imminent
> kiss ass goodbye
> oh shi--


*lol*  A 10 minute video about a speck of dust.


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## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

Telnac said:


> *lol*  A 10 minute video about a speck of dust.



crap. I thought it was going to show more different footages.


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