# New-ish writer seeking help



## Sammin (May 17, 2009)

Yep. I'm new to Fur Affinity, and I'm also a new-ish writer. Other than the papers I've written for school, I haven't really put my writing in view of another person. Ever. I'm not sure of the quality of my work as a whole, as the things I was made to write during such classes really were of no interest to me. But, I can imagine a lot of details to a lot of things. I sometimes write down ideas for stories, but I never get to the point of actually submitting it anywhere, or letting any of my friends review it. I've submitted one thing to Fur Affinity; a Prolouge for my story that I wish to write. It's brief, and it's a bit lacking on detail. I just need someone to give a few ideas on what I should include on the next chapter. Am I missing any key parts of a good story that make my writing weak as a whole, or am I over-doing it at some points? I'd like to finish this story, because it's really a big part of my thoughts right now. I want it to be long, and for the reader to actually be able to immerse themselves in the world I weave. I doubt I can get quite that good, but I can try. 

Just to clear this up; I'm not asking for someone to write it for me, and I never will. I need to develop my skills, and I thought Fur Affinity would be a good place to try to. 

So...uh....anything?


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## M. LeRenard (May 17, 2009)

You know... you should finish this thing first, then ask for critique.  The most important first step in writing in finishing what you start.  Worry about fixing it once it's done, right?  You can't fix a car that's still being built, after all.
The stuff you've posted now isn't too bad.  Contrary to what you said, it feels a little heavy on the details, so maybe back off a bit on the description (first paragraph is especially sluggish... it's like we're following this guy around through his whole morning routine, including opening his door to go outside).  Just to move things along.  You should probably also start it at a more exciting point, because it's not very much fun to read about someone's breakfast habits and the like.  But all in all there's nothing majorly wrong with it that I can see.  So by all means, keep going.

And just between you and me (because some folks heartily disagree), I would recommend reading a number of books on creative writing and the writing of novels to really help get you started.  You've got the basic idea here, so looking into what other writers have done will help you smooth out some of the newbie mistakes you might be making.  I would recommend Stephen King's _On Writing_ and _How to Grow a Novel_ by Sol Stein.  Both are VERY helpful... so ask your librarian or do an interlibrary loan or something.  Or buy them.  Whatever.


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## nybx4life (May 18, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> You know... you should finish this thing first, then ask for critique. The most important first step in writing in finishing what you start. Worry about fixing it once it's done, right? You can't fix a car that's still being built, after all.
> 
> And just between you and me (because some folks heartily disagree), I would recommend reading a number of books on creative writing and the writing of novels to really help get you started. You've got the basic idea here, so looking into what other writers have done will help you smooth out some of the newbie mistakes you might be making. I would recommend Stephen King's _On Writing_ and _How to Grow a Novel_ by Sol Stein. Both are VERY helpful... so ask your librarian or do an interlibrary loan or something. Or buy them. Whatever.


 

What he said


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## Kao (May 18, 2009)

I've just found that reading lots and lots of novels (which I've done most of my life) has allowed me to work out exactly what is expected and what works well with stories. Basically you need to write what you think and then you can always trim it afterwards. There is nothing worse than forgetting to include something while writing! Just splurge onto the paper and chop it up afterwards


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (May 18, 2009)

Don't just read, and then write something. You'll end up piecing together little parts of what you've read.

I'd say an alternance of writing and reading is better than heavily focusing on one, however don't let whatever you just read influence your immediate writing style too much!


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## Kao (May 18, 2009)

Yeh.. thats called plaguerism ^^ You need to develop your own ideas and story lines. Writing a big list of things that are going to happen and sorting out the order so that you can make a story out of them is a really good way to start too.


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## foozzzball (May 18, 2009)

People are rehashing all the same old pieces of advice here. I will thus relate some advice that's been knocking around awhile, but that I doubt anyone else will introduce.

Give up.

If it is at all possible, seriously. As far as hobbies go, there are many that are far more satisfying because at the end of the day you have something real to hold in your hands.

A story is never, ever, real. It's always subjective. No matter what you do there will never be a way for you to know, and feel satisfied, that something you've written is really good. If this ever happens to you and lasts, be wary. You're setting yourself up for a painful experience.


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## Kao (May 18, 2009)

Now thats just harsh. For one, I few other things than curling up on my bed reading a good book or even an e-book. They are brilliant for passing time and can allow your imagination to run away within the confines of the story.

Ignore what he *looks up* said and write a story if you want. Let your creative side be free!


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## M. LeRenard (May 18, 2009)

foozzzball said:
			
		

> Stuff


Translated from the original Douchebag-ese:
Writing is a difficult and time-consuming hobby, and thus you may find that others would be far more fulfilling in the end.  Hence, you may be better off trying something else.

I think that's what he's saying.  I'm a little rusty in my Douchebag-ese, as I don't use it that often.

Anyway, it is true.  If you want to become a 'good' writer (which is always subjective, what that means), be willing to put in decades of work.  But honestly... I wouldn't discourage anyone from taking it up.  It's actually a very useful hobby to get into if you want to learn how to properly organize your thoughts.  If you can write decent fiction, you can write decent essays, third-trimester budget reports, research papers, even math proofs if you're into that sort of thing.  Writing is not without its benefits, is what I'm saying.  But you have to work for them pretty hard to get them.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (May 18, 2009)

While I understand it's better to cover all sides of the subject, I think you guys are a little too rough here.

Being good in *anything* requires you to invest a fair share of time.

Oh, also, enjoying your occupation helps.


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## M. LeRenard (May 18, 2009)

Guys, plural?  What did I say?  Besides "I wouldn't discourage anyone from taking [writing] up," I mean.


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## foozzzball (May 18, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> Writing is a difficult and time-consuming hobby, and thus you may find that others would be far more fulfilling in the end.  Hence, you may be better off trying something else.



Not may, _will_. The creative arts are one of the few fields in which recognised masters will almost certainly believe themselves failures at some point, if not during most of, their career after having 'made it'.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (May 18, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> Guys, plural? What did I say? Besides "I wouldn't discourage anyone from taking [writing] up," I mean.


 You _do_ support Foozzzball, however.

Anyways, let's not argue over this.


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## M. LeRenard (May 18, 2009)

> Not may, will. The creative arts are one of the few fields in which recognised masters will almost certainly believe themselves failures at some point, if not during most of, their career after having 'made it'.


And Einstein always told people he was terrible at math.  What's your point?
I mean, to get to be a 'master' at anything, you have to constantly improve.  Generally that means never recognizing yourself as having become a 'master'.  I would call that a general principle, rather than specific to the arts.


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## Poetigress (May 18, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> I would call that a general principle, rather than specific to the arts.



I think it's felt particularly deeply in the arts, though, more so than in other fields, because the arts are by their very nature so subjective in terms of what's "good" and what isn't. In other fields, something is either correct or incorrect, or it works or doesn't work. Even the most successful artists will always doubt themselves sometimes, because this isn't a science that can be boiled down to a surefire formula.


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## nybx4life (May 18, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> I think it's felt particularly deeply in the arts, though, more so than in other fields, because the arts are by their very nature so subjective in terms of what's "good" and what isn't. In other fields, something is either correct or incorrect, or it works or doesn't work. Even the most successful artists will always doubt themselves sometimes, because this isn't a science that can be boiled down to a surefire formula.


 
Yeah, I have to agree with this. 
Alright, almost every hobby has it's virtues and vices on what's better. 
Let's say in a situation of a fiction writer in high school:
-He wrote a novel, but it never got published. Yet, on a college transcript it's a great piece to add.
Now, if he was a gamer:
-He could be a high ranking gamer in a leaderboard for a game, but as known as he is online, it's not that good to say that you're the number 1 in the worldwide community for COD4, for example.

Also, the arts are different, like tigress said. Many people try to work with anime artwork, but I've seen great artwork come from just stick figures. 

So foooz, if you say alternatives other than writing is better, give an example and explain yourself.


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## M. LeRenard (May 19, 2009)

> I think it's felt particularly deeply in the arts, though, more so than in other fields, because the arts are by their very nature so subjective in terms of what's "good" and what isn't.


I suppose you're right.  I'm thinking of a lot of nuance, but it's probably not a very worthwhile discussion to get into anyway, so I won't bore anyone.


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## foozzzball (May 19, 2009)

nybx4life said:


> So foooz, if you say alternatives other than writing is better, give an example and explain yourself.



Anything.

Because:



			
				foozzzball said:
			
		

> A story is never, ever, real. It's always subjective. No matter what you do there will never be a way for you to know, and feel satisfied, that something you've written is really good.



But to elaborate:



			
				poetigress said:
			
		

> In other fields, something is either correct or incorrect, or it works or doesn't work.



And as a more specific example than 'Anything':



			
				nybx4life said:
			
		

> Now, if he was a gamer:
> -He could be a high ranking gamer in a leaderboard for a game, but as known as he is online, it's not that good to say that you're the number 1 in the worldwide community for COD4, for example.



In short, he's achieved something quantifiable. He can point at that and say 'I have achieved this' and it is a fact. Whether or not it's useful for his job prospects isn't something I'm going to get into, but if you have three hundred pages of a manuscript rotting in your drawer, or even out on the shelves, nobody can legitimately point at that and say 'yeah he's a good writer' or 'no he's a bad writer'.

If you're still at the stage where you think 'Oh it's good that he can put the effort in and it will improve his communication skills and it's great!'... Well. If that worked on editors, we'd all be published. And if getting published doesn't matter to you, you and I are not doing the same thing even though the verb in each case is 'writing'.


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## M. LeRenard (May 19, 2009)

Jeez.  Sorry.
The debate should be moved elsewhere, then.  Though you've pretty much drained my enthusiasm to participate.
God damn.  Make one mistake and you get called a 'hopeless idiot'.  I'll try to be more careful from now on.


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## Poetigress (May 19, 2009)

panzergulo said:


> Now, this is just funny. The thread has got totally loose, people discussing (arguing) about how unrewarding writing is and why you never should start doing any arts because you'll never know if you're good or not.



For the record, I'm not saying you shouldn't start because you'll never know if you're good. (I don't think anyone else was truly saying that either, by the way.) I'm saying, as I think others are, that writers should understand and accept the fact that they'll never truly know if what they're doing is good. You have to be able to live with a certain amount of uncertainty. If you have to be sure, if it's going to drive you nuts all the time, then yeah, you should look into other activities.

Yes, the thread wandered a little from its original post. Threads do that. *shrug* I do think the original poster got some very good advice in the first few replies, though.



> You guys probably startled him with your "big writer talk". Really, some of us write just to have fun.



And I enjoy writing as well. To me, having fun and taking something seriously aren't mutually exclusive. You can enjoy what you're doing and still want to do it as well as you can. 



> Thank you guys, you make it impossible to forget that furries, writers, and people in general, are hopeless idiots.



I don't think anyone's done anything in this thread that qualifies them as a "hopeless idiot."  At the moment, I'm trying to remind myself that English is not your first language, and perhaps you have chosen words that are stronger than you might have intended.


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## nybx4life (May 19, 2009)

foozzzball said:


> In short, he's achieved something quantifiable. He can point at that and say 'I have achieved this' and it is a fact. Whether or not it's useful for his job prospects isn't something I'm going to get into, but if you have three hundred pages of a manuscript rotting in your drawer, or even out on the shelves, nobody can legitimately point at that and say 'yeah he's a good writer' or 'no he's a bad writer'.


Okay, so what you're saying is pretty much as long as an accomplishment has been made for everyone to see, it's worth it, right?
Yeah, but you still can't discredit the writer in your example. A three hundred page manuscript, posted online, has the same effect as the temporary placement in the leaderboard, if not longer because of permanence (if the gamer stayed, well, that'd be different).
From there, you'd have to ask yourself: What had to have been harder to accomplish, fragging and sniping people in a video game for weeks or months, or composing a creative story, from start to finish?

And, as it always will be, others will discredit another's accomplishment. You can reach the top of a leaderboard just by hacking through a game (or others claim that you cheat, same effect), or you could have a story that others believe isn't good. It's all on your opinion.



panzergulo said:


> It wasn't, really... until now. Now you can say the thread has wandered off. Anyway, don't take me too seriously, please.


 

Cool. If you wanna say something serious, mention it early please. And thank you.


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## M. LeRenard (May 19, 2009)

Honestly, Panzer, I've had a bit of a bad morning, and you're little innocent comment there was no help in brightening my day.  So yes, I found your choice of words incredibly insulting.  Just be more careful next time.
I do wonder what happened to the OP, anyway.  I hope we didn't scare him/her off.


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## Sammin (May 19, 2009)

I'm here, just been working on a rough draft of the prologue. A better one. Sort of distracted me from a lot, so...yea. Just now remembered to reply to this thread. 

I did look at it, though. I've been using what you've all said to edit it a lot. Haven't managed to find those particular books on it, though, but I'm looking. The library here is pretty limited, so I've been going different places looking. 

For Panzer: Try to know the person before you spit out insults about them. Yea, my profile is empty. There's nothing to put there. I haven't previously written up fifty chapters of this stuff, only to find out what I am doing is wrong. I took a basic idea from one of my stories and turned it into a small bit of writing to test it out, to see if I liked it. I understand your words may have sounded a bit harsh; I don't mean to offend you, so I apologize if this does.

Truthfully, it did sort of put me off at first. -shrug- It did not stop me from taking it and trying to work with it. I'll post something later that might be better, it might not. If it is not, I'll take what's said about it and build upon it until it is. If the idea is trash, I'll tuck it away until I can rethink it. 

For Renard, Thanks. You've given me quite a lot to think about. Everyone else who actually contributed, thanks as well. Sorry if I was inattentive or rude, I'll be more attentive from now on, and less rude to those who don't need it.


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