# A Thank-You For a Fair Decision



## ChaoKuang (Nov 5, 2006)

I don't have much to say, really. I only have to say thank you for coming to a fair and reasonable decision on the subject of Cub Art.
I agree that the compromise is far. This is a Fur site, for one, and don't see any reason for humans to be depicted here whatsoever. I must point out, briefly, that art depicting fake(toons, characters from animated shows, characters from the imagination) human minors is not illegal, the illegal art comes from human child erotica based off of real children(neighbor, a young actor/singer(i.e. Chris from Everybody Hates Chris), etc. 
HOWEVER, as it is near impossible to tell if a human erotica drawing with a minor in it is from someone's imagination(it could be the artist's neighbor and they claim it's imagined...who would know), I still agree with the decision to keep it off the site. And once again, human artwork really doesn't belong here.
Now that the small legality has been pointed out, I must again thank the administrators for dealing with all the drama, threats, insults, and moral shouts that thet had to deal with, and despite all that, for coming to the fair decision in the matter. Everything you decided on, I believe, was right. And you cannot be thanked enough for making the proper decision in the matter. Keep up the good work, it takes a lot of guts and willpower to make an UNBIASED decision despite your own feelings on the matter.


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## Summercat (Nov 6, 2006)

I'd like to second this sentiment.

I like to think I fought by best to knock down the arguements that people for the ban were hiding behind to the best of my ability. If they came out and just said "Ban it. It squiks me too much," then I don't think I could have BShat as much as I did.

When I last posted in the poll thread, I had accounted for 11% of the total posts in that thread by myself. I was that dedicated, and now my NaNoWriMo is behind a day and a half for it. But... so much the better.

I'll say it agan - I am NOT a fan of cub art. I like cute things, yes, but cubsex isn't something I am that much in to for myself. I'll admit I've done some ageplay RPs, but that was both me and my partner both consenting to roleplay as such.

I will also say (again) that should I find out that someone I know inappropriately touched someone underaged (By my standard of 16), then they'll either die, or I see to it that when they're in jail for it, it becomes known what they did. 

I'm not certain which is worse.

But why do I fight for that which I don't really care for? Others stated it best. I'll try my imperfect attempt.

Ultimatly, you have to wonder where you'll draw the line on various issues. Where you say, "Here. And no further." And wonder which side of the line you yourself are on. This is when you answer the question, not how do I feel about this, but WHY do I feel how I feel. 

It's complicated for me, but ultimately, I feel that the FA community will be STRONGER for this. Yes, people have left because "FA NOW SUPPORTS PEDOS!", but I think in a few months, when people's tempers cool and they look at FA doing just fine without them, a few of them will slink back. Not many, but enough to prove my point. 

But can you think of a more DIVISIVE issue than this that could come up? Even putting aside the double-standards a few people mentioned (To my knowledge, XianJaguar was the only person that I saw say that if a vote for the other 'icky' stuff came up, she'd also vote to ban those because of the same reaons she voted for the ban on cubart) this really cuts down to the bone. It's not the issue of 'Is cubart legal', or "Should we allow this," but rather the tone for "How far can we let the Fandom as a whole go in any direction before we have to cut a group off for being too far from the mainstream?"

And the answer is, pretty damn far, I'd like to think. I'd also like to think people would be rational when looking at furry and think that "Well, it's obvious that they're not ALL the same," but I'm naive, not STUPID.

But I know that I have no problem being called names (Except a hypocrite. Irony, I know, however, it's the one insult of character that gets me), because I have no problem with either refuting them or ignoring them.

"Oh, you're a furry? Does that mean you're one of those perverted animal-fuckers who have sex in animal costumes with plush animals while wanking off to kiddy porn?"

My reply: "In the same way I'm a beer swilling, wife beating, football watching American, or a a greedy rich Jew who is part of a secret plot to take over the world. Some Americans watch football, and some Jews are greedy. Stereotypes exist for a reason,afterall - but most definatly don't apply to nearly everyone."


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## lonewolf23k (Nov 6, 2006)

Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...

...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..

...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x


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## furry (Nov 6, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..




Who?


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## Issarlk (Nov 6, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x



Not "causing" , rather "leading to". Nobody put a gun to their head and said "get off FA". It's their decision to leave.

Banning underage mature pictures would have made some artists gallery lose pictures (and I guess there are some who would have nearly an empty gallery as a result), the problem is it wouldn't have been their decision.


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## Silver R. Wolfe (Nov 6, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x



No idea who those people are either.


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## Cache (Nov 6, 2006)

Issarlk said:
			
		

> Banning underage mature pictures would have made some artists gallery lose pictures (and I guess there are some who would have nearly an empty gallery as a result), the problem is it wouldn't have been their decision.



Yes, interesting how people would lose pictures over something that at the time was not permitted.  That was part of the problem.

Ah well, I have withdrawn my submissions and other people are doing the same.  It's a shame that we can't have a community that has any modicum of self-control.  Oh, people will say it would be censorship, they will say it never hurt anyone.  They can't say with certainty that it never hurt anyone--they can't be absolutely positive someone who loves cub art won't go out and molest a real child because they have justified it as okay.  It's bad enough that the outside world thinks furries are freaks, sick, and wrong--now we've added pedophiles to that list (and I dare you to show cub art to the mundane world and think they will call it any less).  

Is the cost of one empty gallery (that should not have been on the site in the first place) worth the cost in good, qualified and well-known artists?  Is it worth the reputation of furry in general?  I hope the cost to those who remain on FA was worth it.


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## Arnold_Coon (Nov 6, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x



All I read is hate and imputations. Who says these artists and viewers fuck children? What an impertinent tone!

And why does it seem to me that the guys, who draw or admit "cub porn", are more friendly in their words than those "against cub porn people"? I face a wall of hate because some artists decided to leave - unsolicited.

Yours, Arnold


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## yak (Nov 6, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x


*sigh* My good sir, where have you left your manners at, may i ask?
Now let us review some of you own works, perhaps? You do have some mature works yourself, do you? Just one of them.

Lets see..  http://www.furaffinity.net/view/167239/.
Now i want to to say this one simple sentence in front of all the people on FA - "Digimon porn is less of a 'bad' thing then cub porn", keeping in mind that a lot of youngsters still watch those series, and that /this/ sort of art might damage their undeveloped personalities just as well as the next thing. 

You do realize that it would be only fair if the next guy posting here will call you 'digimon fucker", do you? And it will no longer matter that you draw it just for the kicks, or really are into that type of art. Logic fails at such accusations.

And let's not twist the words to suit your purpose. We made noone leave. They chose to leave themselves. I will not even try to justify or prove their actions wrong. It was their decigion, and their decigion alone. 

Now if we /did/ chose to ban that type of art you are reffering to, we /would/ make someone leave, forcefully. And how does that sound any better? 

---

I said this before, and i don't mind saying this again. 
You don't even know what gates of hell would you open if the administration would have bended under your pressure, and actually banned a whole category of art from the site.  I cannot, and i will not even try to explain this to such people as yourself, who cannot hold their tongue in their mouth well enough not not publically insult all people on FA, calling them all "cubfuckers". Now if you did show some signs of common sense, it wouldn't be such a futile task.


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## WelcomeTheCollapse (Nov 6, 2006)

I second this wholeheartedly.


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## shinmew (Nov 6, 2006)

Oooohhh Some of you people have turned this upside down. You post how you feel it is wrong and the immatureness of it, when you yourselves are acting immature about it as well. 

Geeze people get over it and move on. You want to remove your work and move on, DO IT! Quit posting your actions as if it will change anything. If you are going to act this way about it, Why would we want you to still be around? Turn and run from the site, even though there are filters. 

I'm happy for you that you support your cause so strongly. If I felt as strongly about it, I'd do the same thing, but I'm not going to post all over the site about how I'm going to leave and be in hopes to drive other artist to do the same. I post my work not only for myself but for my fans as well. If I leave due to something that is protected by filters, I'm not only cheating my self as an artist but I'm cheating my fans. I'm not going to upset MY fans JUST because I'm all pissed off at a little change that does not effect my art on the site. I may be an artist but I'm also a fan, and those artist I'm a fan of that choose to leave only anger me for it. I'm not going to run to a new site to visit everyday just for those few artist unless I already go there. I don't have time to visit many sites of a few artist that spread out to other sites. I'm limmited enough on time as it is. They lose me as a fan due to their own selfish ways of thinking.


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## Summercat (Nov 6, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x




I've heard of.... AWD, StickDevil, and Jet. Of the three of those, I only +watch AWD here, never looked at StickDevil, and Jet can go wallow in her own hypocrisy.

But even if I worshiped the ground that those artists walked on, I still wouldn't have them decide for me. If they want to leave for their own reasons, go ahead - just because they are good artists does NOT make them good judges of character and forcasters of the future.

Thank you for your time and well thought out comments.


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## Master_Oki_Akai (Nov 6, 2006)

Arnold_Coon said:
			
		

> lonewolf23k said:
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Furthermore, Dickman was a dickhead hypocrite anyway.

But ya know what this reminds me of? Little kids crying cuz they didn't get their way.  No rational, not legitimate arguement, just WAAH WAAH boo-frickity-hoo.  I sat there and read the arguements of people who were pro-cub porn, anti-cub porn, and pro-filters.  

Now of coarse the Pro-cub people were concerned with how to share their art but for the most part the realised "HEY i still got other ways of doing it, no big deal, and if the filters come, HOORAY!".  The Filter people were the only group really trying to produce a calm rational solution to a very simple problem that the majority of people could accept, or at the very least, goes with FAs policies as an art forum.  Of coarse then we got the ban hammers here wanting to burn people at the stake making inconsistent moral arguements and who are STILL hanging around trying to put people on a guilt trip.

You lost bitches now if you're as noble as you try to make yourself sound then at least have the dignity to take your loss with some fuckin grace.  Now shut your holes and run back to momma, it's time for your nap.


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## Summercat (Nov 6, 2006)

MOA, please calm down. The fight is over.

Gloating will not help the situation, it will only inflame it further. Please refrain from such phrases as 'You lost bitches', and 'Now shut your holes and run back to momma, it's time for your nap'.

Those who will leave, will leave. Some may come back when FA doesn't implode. And those who will stay, will stay.


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## Master_Oki_Akai (Nov 6, 2006)

Summercat said:
			
		

> MOA, please calm down. The fight is over.
> 
> Gloating will not help the situation, it will only inflame it further. Please refrain from such phrases as 'You lost bitches', and 'Now shut your holes and run back to momma, it's time for your nap'.
> 
> Those who will leave, will leave. Some may come back when FA doesn't implode. And those who will stay, will stay.



Oh...right, you're right.  That was kinda out of character for me  ^^;


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## Summercat (Nov 6, 2006)

Master_Oki_Akai said:
			
		

> Summercat said:
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Sadly, this is not out of character for me. 223 posts, all just for one flame war. Oy. 

But honestly, the battle is done - the closest analogy I can think of is the US Civil War. The Union has won and is occupying the South forcibly..

Now whose path shall we take? The path that Congress wants, to punish the South? Or do we go with Lincoln's route, and try to heal the rifts?

In reality, Lincoln was murdered, and Congress got it's way, and we had the Reconstruction, which furthered the damage between North and South. I don't want to go that route.

Let's find a way down the middle path. It's overgrown, and in some places the trail doesn't even exist anymore, but we can find a way.


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## Vekke (Nov 7, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x



this is totally fur affinity's fault

what they did made all the good artists throw tantrums and "leave"

and we should listen to what the popular artists want, i think that is the only reasonable decision


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## WolfeByte (Nov 7, 2006)

Vekke said:
			
		

> and we should listen to what the popular artists want, i think that is the only reasonable decision



Sarcasm, I hope.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 7, 2006)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> Vekke said:
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As I said elsewhere, vote for Prop 91 because Samuel Jackson is voting for it! In fact, I should listen to celebrities that drive around with SUV hummer limos telling me I should worry about Global warming too.


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## goat (Nov 7, 2006)

who brought up cub anyway. who STARTED this shit


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 7, 2006)

goat said:
			
		

> who brought up cub anyway. who STARTED this shit



The side making accusations that it wasn't being enforced and that they wanted an all or nothing rule.


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## BijouxDeFoxxe (Nov 7, 2006)

Ooh, here's an idea!  Since "all" the "popular" artists are leaving, that means that people may actually forced to find NEW TALENT THEY LIKE!  Wow, what an idea!  Instead of just following everybody's favs, you can actually LOOK at art of different people you may have just ignored cus they werent "popular" enough.


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## werewolfzombies (Nov 7, 2006)

The definition of a Pedophilia is not just a person who acts, its also person who has fantasies or sexual urges towards children. Just because they are not real characters doesnâ€™t mean the behavior should be tolerated


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 7, 2006)

Towards REAL children.


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## WolfeByte (Nov 7, 2006)

werewolfzombies said:
			
		

> The definition of a Pedophilia is not just a person who acts, its also person who has fantasies or sexual urges towards children. Just because they are not real characters doesnâ€™t mean the behavior should be tolerated



"Hey you!  I saw that thought!  You're under arrest!"

Maybe on the sci-fi channel, bud, but in the real world people actually have to _act _on things before it's a crime.  

I know, I know, it's so unjust, people should be persecuted for impure thoughts, but a good mind reader is so hard to find these days.  :roll:


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## Summercat (Nov 7, 2006)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> werewolfzombies said:
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Some Christians believe that meerly the thought of doing a sin is the same as doing it.

Thought /= Deed.


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## Master_Oki_Akai (Nov 8, 2006)

Summercat said:
			
		

> WolfeByte said:
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Well it's a good thing we're not all Christians then.  

Your intent is not as important as the act, though intent or thought is still important.  Action is MORE important because it's the ONLY thing other people can respond to...unless you happen to be a mind reader...or a ficticious character.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 8, 2006)

werewolfzombies said:
			
		

> The definition of a Pedophilia is not just a person who acts, its also person who has fantasies or sexual urges towards children. Just because they are not real characters doesnâ€™t mean the behavior should be tolerated



Towards real children. Some people may translate an image of manga or shota as a real human child. No denial, are they a pedophile, yes.

Some people may actually just like the art style. Example manga proportions of big eyes and a small mouth actually scare the fuck out of me in a realistic idea, even if translated to make it look less freaky. However, I find it very attractive as a style. 

Some people may be actually turned off by real children's bodies. Some are. That's the thing, everyone is assuming everyone who does, draws it or what not is.

See it's easy to make the illustrated child body = wanting real body jump, but quite honestly it's actually NOT that simple when it comes to illustrations. Some people may find that illustration or "World" their comfort zone because they cannot deal or find disgust with real human bodies, child, adult or what ever.

So there's probably quite a few people that may probably get sexually aroused by illustrations or fantasized version of whatever because it makes them feel more comfortable that way for release. See and that is a bizarre fetish too, but I can't exactly class it as pedophilia. Call them crazy or weird, sure, can't deny that, but a pedophile, not unless they are saying they're sexually attracted to a real child's body. 

Some admitted they did, because of the age play thing. However, if they did molest a kid, then get them the fuck in jail. Doesn't matter to me.

That's why I still stand by the argument, what you draw is not equated to what you think that fetish is. Fantasy is not equal to reality. And there are many reasons for that.


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## Honeymane (Nov 8, 2006)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> werewolfzombies said:
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I have a question for you, if, in 50 years, we have 'holodeck' suits that can. infact, create anysort of 'fantasy' the user wants, and teh user creates a Holographic image of a child, and an adult having sex/ or they perform the act.

Techincaly speaking, the hologram is not a real person. so it's not 'Pedophila'. But, should the technoloy advance further, their is a good chance that reality and fiction will merge.

Just because an image is drawn, and posted on the internet, doesn't mean that the person behind it, is indeed a pedo. I'll agree with you there, but, because this is teh internet, it is impossible to prove that such art is indeed the artistic interpation of an event, thus you are covered on all 'bases'.

But I have a question for you; Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety act had in a section related to a Legal term know has "Ex Post Facto Laws'. In which, the Attorney General has the power to apply the law retroactivily, or, in plain english, to allow the Act to crimalize actions that are techinically legal at the time they where commited.

While I'm no legal expert, I'm sure the Court maybe able to make a case out anyform of Pedophilla, including 'art'.

And like I said, it is impossible to prove that A) the people who post Cub art aare not using it as an outlet for their sexual fetish, and B) that children are not being harmed.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 8, 2006)

Why are we playing Star Trek for this argument?

We're talking about now. Putting up a ridiculous hypothesis like this...I actually like dealing with reality here. 

BTW did you know that many Pedophiles are also Star Trek fans? I guess we should ban Star Trek.

It's also impossible for you for 1. To prove that the person is using it for a sexual fetish. 2. That actual children are involved.

But I'll be very fair, because people need to figure some things out.
In order to make the fantasy more real, they go for something more realistic. The more realistic your image is of an actual child the better they get off. The more abstract it is the harder it is to get off. People who get off on feet, the feet must look a certain way. The artwork must also get as close to it as possible. 

Removing artwork does not remove REAL pedophiles from the site. It just makes you feel better, and I'm sorry feel good reactions, do not solve problems, until little Billy on this site gets raped because parents didn't take any responsibility on watching their child. Then you will express moral outrage that FA doesn't watch all its users.

I bet in fact, you probably encountered on the net some guy who was a real pedophile but you felt, it wasn't your responsibility, or problem...then sometimes it's too late. See, I on the other hand don't put up with that. But if you're scared of art, you're really not facing the REAL problem.

Here's also a statistic for you 

_  About 95% of victims know their perpetrators.
Source: CCPCA, 1992.

It is estimated that approximately 71% of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at least casually. About 80% of these individuals fall within normal intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through, seduction or enticement.
Source: Burgess & Groth, 1984._


Also Just for both sides, if you want to know about the reality of crimes here is a good site.

http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm

One significant thing to note especially since I mentioned this earlier and people are so focused about ADULTS.

*40% of offenders who victimized children under age 6 were juveniles (under age 18 ).*


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## Honeymane (Nov 8, 2006)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Why are we playing Star Trek for this argument?
> 
> We're talking about now. Putting up a ridiculous hypothesis like this...I actually like dealing with reality here.



I was creating a comperaison, both holograms and digial images are 'not real' but....



> It's also impossible for you for 1. To prove that the person is using it for a sexual fetish.



I shouldn't have to; if you didn't like it, why create it in the first place?



> _  About 95% of victims know their perpetrators.
> Source: CCPCA, 1992.
> 
> It is estimated that approximately 71% of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at least casually. About 80% of these individuals fall within normal intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through, seduction or enticement.
> Source: Burgess & Groth, 1984._


what's your point?


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 8, 2006)

Meaning you're looking for the wrong boogeyman to blame.



			
				Honeymane said:
			
		

> I shouldn't have to; if you didn't like it, why create it in the first place?



o/~ The CIRCLE OF LIFEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE o/~

http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=4264&pid=64079#pid64079

Child predators groom their victims but without proper parental guidance they'll get ensnared and no amount of banning artwork will stop that.


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## Dragonrider1227 (Nov 13, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.Â Â :x



Hey, if they can't accept the idea of a website that's actually open to multiple forms of art, that's they're problem. They want an art site corrupted by censorship, they can go to Deviantart.
Theses people have to figure out that when you join an art group, you're going to find forms of art that may make you uncomfortable, you may not want to look at, and may believe that in some ways is morally wrong. Even if it is, that's purely opinion and no one should be told "YOU CAN'T DRAW THIS! I THINK IT'S IMMORAL!" I hate seeing pictures of my favorite cartoon characters being buchtured just because they don't like the character, but they have the right to draw that and the right to show it to he people they think will like it. Furaffinity shouldn't have to make new rules just because someone popular thinks they should be so. What? You want FA to be a bunch of buttkissers now?

PS. A person that draws cub-porn doesn't make them a cubfucker. Does a person that draws a naked fox furry make them a fox fucker?


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## N3X15 (Nov 13, 2006)

lonewolf23k said:
			
		

> Yeah, thank you for accepting Cub Porn...
> 
> ...And thus causing the big name furry artists like Greg Panovich, Cybercat, Andrew Dickman, StickDevil, J3T and some others to pack their bags and leave..
> 
> ...I hope you cubfuckers will be happy.  :x









Who cares if people leave?  I sure as hell don't.  30,000 people on this site, a lot of them are great artists, and a lot have not left.

And, as stressed, drawing cub stuff doesn't make one a pedo/cubfucker.  I could draw a cub right now getting buttlove from a llama just to be funny.  Does that make me a pedo or a cubfucker? No.  Stop making assumptions please.


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## Pinkuh (Nov 13, 2006)

This is old... thread closed


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