# God and such



## KittyKat (Jun 11, 2010)

Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.

If you think about it, what has he done for us?
You prey and you ask and you don't get. 

My question to you is if god had to do something for you for once, what would he do?


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Hes done plenty for me, How about you get out? you wont because thats an illogical demand on my part. 

He has given me a way to live, he has given me the ability to think for myself, that is enough.


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## KittyKat (Jun 11, 2010)

Ahh but you see you gave yourself the will to change, the will to live. Forget it I'll delete this post


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## Tabasco (Jun 11, 2010)

Kill all his followers.


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Blues said:


> Kill all his followers.


 
but I have hedge cutters, beware! lol


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## Willow (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.


 You first :3


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## Aden (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.


 
Way to help us atheists' image, bro.


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## Icky (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah, gonna take the side of the christfags when I say that this was a dick move.

Way to go.


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.



This thread is stupid. However:



gdzeek said:


> He has given me a way to live, he has given me the ability to think for myself, that is enough.


 
Prove this wasn't natural evolution, and was indeed an act of god.


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> Prove this wasn't natural evolution, and was indeed an act of god.


 
That would first depend on your view of God, he a very stereotyped figure. even if god was made up my life being grown up outside of religious society or within would have drastically shaped my life in very different ways. also such a lifestyle is given as advice I am free to try and live it, or ditch it and claim I grew up religous then shunned it. I was given that choice.

the real question is who and what is God in reality, is he a sham that is passed on or does he exist on  realm beyond our scope.


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## LizardKing (Jun 11, 2010)

This thread started out awful and is slowly digging down deeper


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## Willow (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm no huge religious freak really, but, the first post reeks of ignorant


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

LizardKing said:


> This thread started out awful and is slowly  digging down deeper



Its a religious thread thats what they do, alright everyone into the life boat. Muhahaha



WillowWulf said:


> I'm no huge religious freak really, but, the  first post reeks of ignorant


 
It did, but some of us religious folks do that too, I have nothing against you KittyKat, I just hope yo offer me the same respect I have for your ideals.


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> That would first depend on your view of God, he a very stereotyped figure.


 
No, it does not. If God gave you free will and "a way to live", my _view_ does not matter. A fact is a fact. What a cop out answer.

If you stop believing in evolution, it doesn't go away. God does. What does that say?


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> No, it does not. If God gave you free will and "a way to live", my _view_ does not matter. A fact is a fact. What a cop out answer.
> 
> If you stop believing in evolution, it doesn't go away. God does. What does that say?


 
lol, I snickered, seriously man your view of god develops your opinions its very clear in your last post.

for one, god does not go away, he simply isnt the fascist dicatator forcing his followers to do his bidding. if you stop belieiving thats all that happens. 

your answer was the cop out with some small mimicry of what others say what evolution really is, I'm religious and I dont deny evolution. notice all these assumptions your making? for you to prove anything about evolution wouldnt I need a clear understanding of the subject first... Its the same with god... but wait you dont need to know anything about him.

my biggest point is noone can prove anything without the learner having knowledge of the subject. its not a cop out, it is a fact. If you dont know what god is I cant prove anything.


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## TashkentFox (Jun 11, 2010)

He would become a mod on here and ban the troll twins. (Jashwa and Brazen)


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> lol, I snickered, seriously man your view of god develops your opinions its very clear in your last post.


 
My "view of god" is pretty obvious if you just ask, too, rather than be snide and think you're cute or something. I'm an atheist. Good job.



> for one, god does not go away, he simply isnt the fascist dicatator forcing his followers to do his bidding. if you stop belieiving thats all that happens.



Except he does. If everyone, today, just stood up and said "well, I don't believe in god anymore", there would be no more god. If the idea of god was never invented, there never would have been a god.

If everyone stood up and said "well, I don't believe in evolution", guess what? Evolution would continue to happen.



> your answer was the cop out with some small understanding of what evolution really is, I'm religious and I dont deny evolution. notice all these assumptions your making? for you to prove anything about evolution wouldnt I need a clear understanding of the subject first... Its the same with god... but wait you dont need to know anything about him.



I never said you deny evolution. I never made an assumption. I used that as an example. You could have replaced "evolution" in that example with "gravity," "physics" or even "dicks" and it would have been the same point.

No, you don't need a clear understanding of evolution for me to prove it. I can prove it to other people - and besides, you don't need to believe in science for it to exist and happen. My point is, whether or not you believe in evolution, gravity, physics or dicks, all four of those things are still there.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.
> 
> If you think about it, what has he done for us?
> You prey and you ask and you don't get.
> ...


 
Give me the courage to ask my ex boyfriend out.

Also he's given us life from what I've heard.


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## Riley (Jun 11, 2010)

Organized religion pisses me off.  I don't care if a person has personal beliefs about this or that, but organized religion is a terrible, hiveminded collection that only hurts the world.  It discourages and punishes free thought, and sticks around because so many people are too afraid of not having something to blame war or politics or famine or whatever on.  Humanity needs to grow up; we have proven and discovered so many things, but all the organized religions want to ignore that and default it all to "GOD'S WILL."  People make stories up to explain to unknown, historically this has been the basis of any supernatural thing, as a god would be.  But as more information and knowledge was acquired, those beliefs have been replaced by facts.  Religion wants to keep believing in something that can be proven another way - not just something like "there is no god," but something smaller, like diseases.  I know it's only the really diehard religious people that refuse treatment for cancer or some disease because "well I guess God wanted me/him/her to have it," but those people still exist, and it makes me angry.

A question to anyone who believes god is THE ULTIMATE TRUTH:

Why, if humans and Earth and whatnot are all that matter in God's Plan, are there other planets, solar systems, and entire galaxies?  Why does the rest of the universe even exist, if we're all that matter?  Surely it was a waste of resources, no?  Answer without using the phrases "God works in mysterious ways," "We can never know His plans/will," or anything like that.

---
You know, if anything I typed makes any sort of sense.


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> My "view of god" is pretty obvious if you just ask, too, rather than be snide and think you're cute or something. I'm an atheist. Good job.



congratulations you have a view, I probably have my own skewed view of evolution to match your skewed stereotypical view of God.



Internet Police Chief said:


> Except he does. If everyone, today, just stood up and said "well, I don't believe in god anymore", there would be no more god. If the idea of god was never invented, there never would have been a god.
> 
> If everyone stood up and said "well, I don't believe in evolution", guess what? Evolution would continue to happen.



If all the world stopped beleiving in god, he would still exist too, he doesnt need us, thanks for arguing that point, obviously we agree their atleast. hooray



Internet Police Chief said:


> I never said you deny evolution. I never made an assumption. I used that as an example. You could have replaced "evolution" in that example with "gravity," "physics" or even "dicks" and it would have been the same point.
> 
> No, you don't need a clear understanding of evolution for me to prove it. I can prove it to other people - and besides, you don't need to believe in science for it to exist and happen. My point is, whether or not you believe in evolution, gravity, physics or dicks, all four of those things are still there.



I know you didnt, but your trying to state facts based on your own opinions and viewpoints, I'm just calling you out on them. obviously you used evolution in a vague example.


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> congratulations you have a view, I probably have my own skewed view of evolution to match your skewed stereotypical view of God.



How is my view stereotypical or skewed?





> If all the world stopped beleiving in god, he would still exist too, he doesnt need us, thanks for arguing that point, obviously we agree their atleast. hooray



Can't prove me wrong so you act all snide and take what I say out of context? Ah, typical religions nuts.

No, god would not exist if everyone stopped believing. This is because at it's core, god is simply an _idea._ If nobody ever STARTED believing in god, god would never have begun to exist in peoples minds.

On the flip side, if nobody ever STARTED believing in evolution, gravity, physics or dicks, they would all still exist.




> I know you didnt, but your trying to state facts based on your own opinions and viewpoints, I'm just calling you out on them. obviously you used evolution in a vague example.



Evolution isn't an opinion or a viewpoint, sorry. You haven't really "called me out" on, well, anything.


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## Thatch (Jun 11, 2010)

You just haven't found Jesus yet.


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

szopaw said:


> You just haven't found Jesus yet.


 
Obviously :<


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Riley Bladepaw said:


> Organized religion pisses me off.  I don't care if a person has personal beliefs about this or that, but organized religion is a terrible, hiveminded collection that only hurts the world.  It discourages and punishes free thought, and sticks around because so many people are too afraid of not having something to blame war or politics or famine or whatever on.  Humanity needs to grow up; we have proven and discovered so many things, but all the organized religions want to ignore that and default it all to "GOD'S WILL."  People make stories up to explain to unknown, historically this has been the basis of any supernatural thing, as a god would be.  But as more information and knowledge was acquired, those beliefs have been replaced by facts.  Religion wants to keep believing in something that can be proven another way - not just something like "there is no god," but something smaller, like diseases.  I know it's only the really diehard religious people that refuse treatment for cancer or some disease because "well I guess God wanted me/him/her to have it," but those people still exist, and it makes me angry.
> 
> A question to anyone who believes god is THE ULTIMATE TRUTH:
> 
> ...



haha, I'll try my friend. your right though. our little planet isnt the sole obsession of god. the entire universe is planned out, and yes there are other planets and soon we will probably find life on them, we may even find that the vast world of the gods is deeper and richer than we imagined instead of the stereotypical view that even religious people harbor.

I'm in religion because I see possibilities

he doesnt punish free thought, he encourages it, its not gods fault humans have misconstrued that idea

your right refusing medical treatment on religious belief is stupid, forcing others to take on our ideals instead of offering it soley as advice is stupid, 

we arent all that different my friend, but your right religious people in general need to grow up and return to the open thinking that we are obviously capable of.



szopaw said:


> You just haven't found Jesus yet.


 
even i found that amusing


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 11, 2010)

Srs question: if Jesus/ another prophet were to hit Earth again, say tomorrow... how would Christians know? Jesus wasn't really known outside of his direct area and certainly not by people from around the world.
He didn't make any effort to reach them beyond word of mouth, either. Nor did he do anything spectacular to gain believers-- he just asked those fisherman to come with him and they threw down their nets and followed.

How would you know he was here and what would it take to convince you?


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## Tabasco (Jun 11, 2010)

Fucking logic, how does it work.


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## Jelly (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.
> 
> If you think about it, what has he done for us?
> You prey and you ask and you don't get.
> ...


 
i dont ask god for things
i lay out plans to complete the goals i want to complete, and sure sometimes i pray or reflect on god to find clarity in life
but i dont ask god to live my life for me or subvert some aspect of the world for my personal "benefit"


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## Slyck (Jun 11, 2010)

Slyck's guide to religion:*

*
*If you're a new-age freak:*
You make me laugh. You think you so smrt.

*If you're a fundamentalist anything:*
I'm a big pro-choice gay liberal heathen who listens to rock and/or roll. I don't believe that 'monkeys turned to men' That's not evolution. 'The world was made from dust'? That's not the big bang. Educate yourself, learn both sides of the debate. Up yours. Quit preaching to me.

*If you are Catholic:*
So what if the pope apologized. To little, to late.

*If you are a Muslim:*
I'm not gonna give you a lecture now. Chances are you're already unfairly being called a Christian-hating terrorist just because a few people took a religion too far. You shouldn't have to deal with that.

*If you are a Hindu:*
You sure have some funky gods there. However, I haven't had the chance to learn enough about the Hindu religion to do any refuting.

*If you are any of the above:*
No religion as of now is correct. If one was, it would have stood up all  tests put to it.
You can worship to me if you want. However, I don't see how it would do any good.

*If you are an agnostic:*
  Good for you. You have an open mind. I like the way you think.​


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Blues said:


> Fucking logic, how does it work.


 
I am sigging this



Jelly said:


> i dont ask god for things
> i lay out plans to  complete the goals i want to complete, and sure sometimes i pray or  reflect on god to find clarity in life
> but i dont ask god to live my  life for me or subvert some aspect of the world for my personal  "benefit"


 

I couldnt have said it better myself, thanks jelly


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 11, 2010)

Jelly said:


> i dont ask god for things


 
Not even for other people to be happy? :U
(It's on.)


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> I am sigging this


 
I don't think that was directed at who you think it was directed at.


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## Joeyyy (Jun 11, 2010)

OP have the mean ol' religious people hurt you? thats what drove you to post this? :V


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## Jelly (Jun 11, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> Not even for other people to be happy? :U
> (It's on.)


 
Not even for other people to be happy.
(I GUESS)


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

Jelly said:


> Not even for other people to be happy.
> (I GUESS)


 
GOSH YOU ARE SO MEAN.


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 11, 2010)

Jelly said:


> Not even for other people to be happy.
> (I GUESS)


 
Not even for a flying rocket bike for the orphans? :[
(CAPS LOCK)


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> I don't think that was directed at who you think it was directed at.


 
Doesnt matter who it was directed at, its a great statement. Logic seems so factual to people when its really has a very fluid nature.



Harebelle said:


> Not even for a flying rocket bike for the  orphans? :[
> (CAPS LOCK)



lol, Or My Lamborghini, I still want my lamborghini


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## CynicalCirno (Jun 11, 2010)

Arguing about something invisible, invincible and unknown is retarded.

I say that god didn't answer any of my wishes, because I never really had ones.

Wishes are not just something you ask because you want it, these are things in need.
If your friend or family member is seriously injured in a horrible accident, and you wish for him to survive and he survives, you can thank god, but remember the real angels are the surgeons.

If you want to win a car, you do the lottery thing, win a car, you cannot thank god, even though god = luck.

If you succeed an exam, you can't thank god, because it's only you.

In the end it's only a belief. I think god lives on it's own somewhere and doesn't conflict our lives, becasue it can't.
Because we are greater than god.
Because people created god so they could have somebody to protect them from their fears.


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> Doesnt matter who it was directed at, its a great statement. Logic seems so factual to people when its really has a very fluid nature.


 
I'm onto you:

- denounce logic as illogical
- get away with nosensical claims
- ????
- profit! (Heaven)


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> I'm onto you:
> 
> - denounce logic as illogical
> - get away with nosensical claims
> ...



D:< oh nooooos my secret Identity

profit= Shiny new green lambo for conventions, woot


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## Icky (Jun 11, 2010)

Hey gdzeek, try asking your god how to type.


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## Tabasco (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> I am sigging this


 
The irony is that I was thinking of you when I said it.

Still think pornography is the biggest cause of divorce?


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

Blues said:


> The irony is that I was thinking of you when I said it.
> 
> Still think pornography is the biggest cause of divorce?


 
No.

GAY PEOPLE ARE

EWWWWWWWWWWWW


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Blues said:


> The irony is that I was thinking of you when I said it.
> 
> Still think pornography is the biggest cause of divorce?



haha, no, I am religious but I do change my opinion to good arguements. but It would be silly to alter that OP



Icky said:


> Hey gdzeek, try asking your god how to type.



Its my laptop, the keys are all sticky, and sometimes I just dont care. I dont think god does either, although if I suddenly disappear you'll all know why.


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> Its my laptop, the keys are all sticky, and sometimes I just dont care. I dont think god does either, although if I suddenly disappear you'll all know why.


 
No, why? It sure isn't because of JEEZUS or anything.


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> No, why? It sure isn't because of JEEZUS or anything.


 
I'm being funny, even atheists joke about God striking people down just for the heck of it. besides I dont want you guys thinking I'm a complete bullhead in religion, I'm still friendly and easy going but I reserve my ability to believe what I will, just as everyone else deserves.


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## Icky (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> Its my laptop, the keys are all sticky, and sometimes I just dont care. I dont think god does either, although if I suddenly disappear you'll all know why.


Yes, but if you don't care about grammar, how much effort are you putting into your arguments?


Blues said:


> The irony is that I was thinking of you when I said it.


He quoted me insulting his species in his sig, I don't think he understands how they work.


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## Captain Howdy (Jun 11, 2010)

_*Facepalms*_


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 11, 2010)

Icky said:


> Yes, but if you don't care about grammar, how much effort are you putting into your arguments?


 
Not much, because he's ignoring my posts.


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## Jelly (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm so above this shit. 8)


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## Icky (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> Not much, because he's ignoring my posts.


He's obviously thinking of a real zinger that will end religious debates everywhere.

Or masturbating.


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## gdzeek (Jun 11, 2010)

Internet Police Chief said:


> Not much, because he's ignoring my posts.



I've given you the most attention so far, ;_; , maybe I should accuse you of ignoring mine, since I had to state my point several times.



Icky said:


> Yes, but if you don't care about grammar, how much effort are you putting into your arguments?
> 
> He quoted me insulting his species in his sig, I don't think he understands how they work.



I was wondering if that was you Icarus, I thought someone started mimicking your profile or something.

I put in enough to be serious, but not passionate and overbearing. I dont feel like taunting the ban hammer in my first year on the forums. And I'm generally not like that anyway.

I just add whatever quote I find humorous, and I've had plenty of positive comments about my fursona to not take that particular quote seriously, but I still find it funny.


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## Icky (Jun 11, 2010)

gdzeek said:


> I was wondering if that was you Icarus, I thought someone started mimicking your profile or something.
> 
> I put in enough to be serious, but not passionate and overbearing. I dont feel like taunting the ban hammer in my first year on the forums. And I'm generally not like that anyway.
> 
> I just add whatever quote I find humorous, and I've had plenty of positive comments about my fursona to not take that particular quote seriously, but I still find it funny.


Yes, because there are soo many other birds here to confuse me with.

You're not going to get banned for having a serious debate, you'll get banned for acting like an idiot.

And normally people don't find insults against themselves very funny.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.
> 
> If you think about it, what has he done for us?
> You prey and you ask and you don't get.
> ...


 
If we suppose god does exist, he wouldn't grant the wishes of everyone because that would cause mayhem. We should learn to be independent and not rely on him to fix OUR problems.


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## Browder (Jun 11, 2010)

Ugh... this thread.

OP there is such a thing as respect. You can have a differing opinion but it would be greatly appreciated if you showed some respect for the opinions of others unless they refuse to show you respect. No, you can't say that all fundamentalists violated courtesy for their various crimes because you addressed the topic specifically to the religious members on the board.


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## Laser Jesus (Jun 11, 2010)

I'll just say that I personally don't believe in god but I actually show respect towards those who do believe in a God.
And then I'll elegantly move away and let the picky religion-thread-thing-you-find-on-every-forum proceed


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## Querk (Jun 11, 2010)

1) If you don't believe in God, that's fine, but don't be a dick to people who do.
2) Pray*
3) That's it.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jun 11, 2010)

Querk said:


> 1) If you don't believe in God, that's fine, but don't be a dick to people who do.
> 2) Pray*
> 3) That's it.



How many times have your prayed to god and NOT got your prayer answered?


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## Querk (Jun 11, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> How many times have your prayed to god and NOT got your prayer answered?



I don't pray to God and if I did I wouldn't be keeping track?


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## Akro (Jun 11, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> How many times have your prayed to god and NOT got your prayer answered?


 I prayed to god for a woman to make me a sandwich and it hasnt worked....
In all honesty, prayers dont work unless you're praying like an idiot going "I pray I wake up tomorrow <3" and then next day "OMG I woke up <333 god luvs me" It gets on my nerves.

But anyways, im not christian, but OP, no one loves you


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## Spawtsie Paws (Jun 11, 2010)

If I prayed, I would be happy with at least a boot to the face.


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## Aleu (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> My question to you is if god had to do something for you for once, what would he do?


 
Smite you.


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## Willow (Jun 11, 2010)

If God had answered my prayers, I wouldn't be on the internet as much

I come from a devout Christian family, but I don't pray or go to church very often


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## Lobar (Jun 11, 2010)

ugh, this thread


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## Luca (Jun 11, 2010)

Don't bash others beliefs. I don't believe in a god but I do respect others religions. Grow up.


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## Jazzy (Jun 11, 2010)

I think Christians are mostly good, but self-devaluing people who sometimes push their idea of right and wrong onto other people; but pretty much everyone is guilty of that sometimes so whatever.


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## Tao (Jun 11, 2010)

I pray occasionally but I believe in nothing


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 11, 2010)

OP is cleaning out this bitch. Your _preyers_ can't save you now!


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## Slyck (Jun 11, 2010)

Greedy, Sleepy, Horny, Angry, Envy, Gluttony and Pride.

At least in Christianity, those are the seven deadly dwarfs sins.

The way I see it, I damn well better be right because if God is real, I'm fucked.


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## Ibuuyk (Jun 11, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.
> 
> If you think about it, what has he done for us?
> You prey and you ask and you don't get.
> ...


 
Your example only concerns a Good God.  What if God was a jerk sadist?  Twould make it believable that he existed.


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## Jelly (Jun 11, 2010)

Lobar said:


> ugh, this thread


 
this thread could be about disco
if you want it to be

this thread needs disco
like hi-nrg or something spacey


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## Aleu (Jun 11, 2010)

Slyck said:


> Greedy, Sleepy, Horny, Angry, Envy, Gluttony and Pride.
> 
> At least in Christianity, those are the seven deadly dwarfs sins.
> 
> The way I see it, I damn well better be right because if God is real, I'm fucked.



actually, all sins are equal. They are only deadly if they control your life.


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## Stargazer Bleu (Jun 11, 2010)

I think all prayers are answered.  
Just that not all are not granted.


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## Zuri the husky (Jun 11, 2010)

Stargazer Bleu said:


> I think all prayers are answered.
> Just that not all are not granted.


 
^


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## Jelly (Jun 11, 2010)

Stargazer Bleu said:


> I think all prayers are answered.
> Just that not all are not granted.


 
Phew!


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## Torrijos-sama (Jun 11, 2010)

If God exists, he should have been less narcissistic.

That way, he wouldn't have created a species in his image to worship him.

And, thus, this thread would not exist.


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## Lobar (Jun 11, 2010)

Stargazer Bleu said:


> I think all prayers are answered.
> Just that not all are not granted.


 
well if indifference is an answer

then sure I guess


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## Aleu (Jun 11, 2010)

Lobar said:


> well if indifference is an answer
> 
> then sure I guess


 I thought it was "yes" or "no"


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## Thallis (Jun 12, 2010)

Slyck said:


> Slyck's guide to religion:*
> 
> *
> *If you're a new-age freak:*
> ...


 
Beautiful. Completely agree, minus the Hindu Part. I have no qualms against Hindus now that their caste system has been more or less dismantled. Also, they are sometimes confused with Radical Muslims due to racism, and for this, I feel terrible. I don't care what anyone worships, as long as you are a better person for it. Just don't go shoving it in my face, tell me how disgusting and sinful I am, or try to convert me.


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## Holsety (Jun 12, 2010)

"Too late too little" people are hilarious because they obviously don't know how big a set of balls you have to have to admit you fucked up to the entire world and then ask for another chance, especially over religion and pedophilia.


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## Captain Howdy (Jun 12, 2010)

Holsety said:


> "Too late too little" people are hilarious because they obviously don't know how big a set of balls you have to have to admit you fucked up to the entire world and then ask for another chance, especially over religion and pedophilia.


 
Wait, wait, so...You're going to belittle everyone hurt (directly, or indirectly), because he had to apologize?

I suppose all he has left to offer is prayers, and we know how worthless that is :v (even worth less than his apology)


----------



## Slyck (Jun 12, 2010)

Thallis said:


> Beautiful. Completely agree, minus the Hindu Part. I have no qualms against Hindus now that their caste system has been more or less dismantled. Also, they are sometimes confused with Radical Muslims due to racism, and for this, I feel terrible. I don't care what anyone worships, as long as you are a better person for it. Just don't go shoving it in my face, tell me how disgusting and sinful I am, or try to convert me.


Bingo. ..When I said 'funky' in regards to Hinduism, I wasn't meaning it in a negative way if that's what you thought. I guess *this* is one bone I'd pick with Hindu, however.



Holsety said:


> "Too late too little" people are hilarious  because they obviously don't know how big a set of balls you have to  have to admit you fucked up to the entire world and then ask for another  chance, especially over religion and pedophilia.


Meh. What I  meant is the pope shouldn't have been trying to protect those 'lesser  classy' priests in the first place.


----------



## Shred Uhh Sore Us (Jun 12, 2010)

This is the most worthwhile thread I've ever seen.


/sarcasm


----------



## starkiller500 (Jun 22, 2010)

here's a question to keep in mind:  Do you love you family?  Are you going to give up so easily or can you find the courage in your heart to keep going until the end?

It's nobody's right to say what can believe or not believe.  Not everything has to be explained, God doesn't have to live our lives for us; He wants us to be able to work together, to love each other, to care for one another, do develop a purpose, to experience what we have and what we do on this earth.  God does exist, He is real and He loves us all very much.  God doesn't turn away from you, He still faces you and welcomes you all the time in his open arms, it is people that turn away from him.  You're right, I cannot make you believe or change your minds, but all I can give is words and all I can do is love you guys and be a friend to you.  And if you don't want to hear anymore from me, you can block me, you can yell at me, throw harsh words at me, you can ban me, do whatever you like with me (it's okay, I can take it cuz it would be my last day and hour in this forum cuz I never really belonged here).  Just remember that God does answer prayers too; some of the answers are either yes, no or not yet (remember that God's timing is not our timing).

Here's a word to focus on:  *Love*.  (God is Love; find out what love is and what it does - and find out if it comes from anywhere else)

always remember this too:  *GOD LOVES YOU*

good-bye guys, it was nice to know everyone in this site.  I'm having this account removed so you don't have to hear me preach again.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 22, 2010)

starkiller500 said:


> Just remember that God does answer prayers too; some of the answers are either yes, no or not yet (remember that God's timing is not our timing)


 
You can pray to a sofa and get the same results.
(Byebye!)


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## Pliio8 (Jun 22, 2010)

Theological Atheist yes Spiritual Lombax says:

God cannot be proven, or disproven. Any sort of ideals relating to him are that, ideals, an opinion. I could pull a centillion things out of my ass to prove both sides of this insipid argument incorrect, but not fully wrong. It is faith, it is belief. In the same way someone has faith in a person, or faith in a scientific theory, some people have faith in God, or other beliefs. Many people are ignorant when it comes to this, with little want to learn.For the longest time I have not believed in God, but does that mean I shun it all? Hell no, I've read many different Bibles, read interps, read even The God Delusion (Which I didn't like, sorry militant atheists)

There are a view things that need to be straightened up:

Religion =/= God
God =/= Omnipotence
Atheism =/= Irreligious
Anti-Religious = WBC intolerance, scale wise that is

Don't like what others believe? Get the fuck over it, forcing your beliefs on someone, or lack of beliefs on someone, only pisses them off and fuels the intolerance that has plagued this planet, the same intolerance that leads to both the attitude of "Burn them for not believing in Evolution." and "Burn the gays, its in the BIBLE!"

In other words, yes. I did just put Religious and Atheists on the same fucking scale... why? Because its a personal belief, and no one should hate you for what you believe of this earth. It is not a black and white God or no God, it is Gray. The same way I meditate and yet Don't believe in him. Sure I don't believe in him, but I'm cynical enough to think that there could be one. I'm not going to go around pissing people off for it.

TL;DR:

STFU :3


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## Jelly (Jun 22, 2010)

i love semantics
this is not a post


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## Willow (Jun 22, 2010)

starkiller500 said:


> here's a question to keep in mind:  Do you love you family?  Are you going to give up so easily or can you find the courage in your heart to keep going until the end?
> 
> It's nobody's right to say what can believe or not believe.  Not everything has to be explained, God doesn't have to live our lives for us; He wants us to be able to work together, to love each other, to care for one another, do develop a purpose, to experience what we have and what we do on this earth.  God does exist, He is real and He loves us all very much.  God doesn't turn away from you, He still faces you and welcomes you all the time in his open arms, it is people that turn away from him.  You're right, I cannot make you believe or change your minds, but all I can give is words and all I can do is love you guys and be a friend to you.  And if you don't want to hear anymore from me, you can block me, you can yell at me, throw harsh words at me, you can ban me, do whatever you like with me (it's okay, I can take it cuz it would be my last day and hour in this forum cuz I never really belonged here).  Just remember that God does answer prayers too; some of the answers are either yes, no or not yet (remember that God's timing is not our timing).
> 
> ...


 ..that's cool...


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 22, 2010)

Jelly said:


> i love semantics
> this is not a post


 
Jelly! What are your religious beliefs?


----------



## lilEmber (Jun 22, 2010)

I love all the cop-out answers.

How about I don't know.
Because really, that's the only answer and everything else is bull because there's no way you can know. Pretending to have all the answers is worse than not having any.

I've prayed a few times, but I'm somebody that doesn't believe in a god but ultimately doesn't know if there is one or not...I just choose to believe there's no God because of religion.

I don't expect my prayers to be answered, and if they are I don't believe it was because I prayed...I just pray for good things in bad situations, it's rare but I'm not gonna lie and be like "lol I'm so cool I never pray." Even thinking to yourself "oh shit I hope I get out of this one" is praying.


----------



## Pliio8 (Jun 22, 2010)

starkiller500 said:


> here's a question to keep in mind:  Do you love you family?  Are you going to give up so easily or can you find the courage in your heart to keep going until the end?
> 
> It's nobody's right to say what can believe or not believe.  Not everything has to be explained, God doesn't have to live our lives for us; He wants us to be able to work together, to love each other, to care for one another, do develop a purpose, to experience what we have and what we do on this earth.  God does exist, He is real and He loves us all very much.  God doesn't turn away from you, He still faces you and welcomes you all the time in his open arms, it is people that turn away from him.  You're right, I cannot make you believe or change your minds, but all I can give is words and all I can do is love you guys and be a friend to you.  And if you don't want to hear anymore from me, you can block me, you can yell at me, throw harsh words at me, you can ban me, do whatever you like with me (it's okay, I can take it cuz it would be my last day and hour in this forum cuz I never really belonged here).  Just remember that God does answer prayers too; some of the answers are either yes, no or not yet (remember that God's timing is not our timing).
> 
> ...


 
Damn straight.

Fuck people's beliefs, it doesn't matter. Arguing about this won;t find a cure for AIDS, stop wars, fix the economy, or other things. Its just going to tear humanity apart and make us hate eachother, even in the final hour of our lives.



Harmony said:


> I love all the cop-out answers.
> 
> How about I don't know.
> Because really, that's the only answer and everything else is bull because there's no way you can know. Pretending to have all the answers is worse than not having any.
> ...



A prayer as I see it, is not asking for God's intention, but rather convincing yourself of good intent, and for some, asking for that little bit of help and sympathy we all need.

I pray at least once every other week, never for myself but for a friend, for someone who I care about. I'll do it as I cry for them in the middle of the night. not because I believe in God, but because I care.


----------



## Disasterfox (Jun 22, 2010)

K all u atheists don't have a heaven then. Nope, too late. You just lost your heaven privileges.

Seriously where do you think we'll go? Canada?


----------



## Enwon (Jun 22, 2010)

I have a question about heaven and hell.
Why is it that if I don't believe in God, I burn and are tortured for an eternity in hell?  If God is that harsh, is he truly love?  It sounds more like some serious anger issues than love to me...

I'm not trying to antagonize anybody for their beliefs, I just want a couple of questions answered.


----------



## Pliio8 (Jun 22, 2010)

N106 said:


> I have a question about heaven and hell.
> Why is it that if I don't believe in God, I burn and are tortured for an eternity in hell?  If God is that harsh, is he truly love?  It sounds more like some serious anger issues than love to me...
> 
> I'm not trying to antagonize anybody for their beliefs, I just want a couple of questions answered.


 
It depends on which God you go for.

Christian God requires belief in generality, but depending upon the believer, you can go to a church that believes in "Indiscriminate Love" from God.
Gnostic God is dead, but his daughter loves all humans, and it all depends upon your deed on this earth.


----------



## Jelly (Jun 22, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> Gnostic God is dead, but his daughter loves all humans, and it all depends upon your deed on this earth.


 
what :|



Harebelle said:


> Jelly! What are your religious beliefs?


 
Friendly. =')
I don't know im some kind of quaker or some bullshit
i dont belong to any religion, and no religion belongs to me ! ^_^


----------



## Enwon (Jun 22, 2010)

Jelly said:


> what :|


 My sentiments exactly.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 22, 2010)

Jelly said:


> I don't know im some kind of quaker or some bullshit


 
You should have this as a bumper sticker. :3


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 22, 2010)

Hmm. Don't know.


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## Attaman (Jun 22, 2010)

Just going to touch on one thing:  It takes much less cojones to admit to pedophilia within your ranks _after you've unsuccessfully tried to pin practically every other group, including Jews, Gays, and non-celibate Priests as a whole_ than it does to admit right off the bat.  People aren't mocking him for admitting it:  They're mocking him because there was no sincerity to it and just an attempt to save face since it was either admit it and "man up" or don't admit it when it was known by everyone anyways.

That's all I want to jump in for:  No statements on religions, no statements on lacks thereof, but saying that the Pope was brave for the admittance is just inane.


----------



## Ames (Jun 22, 2010)

Why is this thread still alive?


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## Corto (Jun 22, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> Okay honestly, if you believe in god... Get out.


 
From: Corto
To: KittyKat
CC: Every fucking asshole that thinks he's superior for being an atheist

Fuuuuck. Yoooou.


----------



## Corto (Jun 22, 2010)

Just to clarify I don't give a crap if you don't believe in God (if you're right, it won't matter. If I'm right, we're both going to hell anyway) but having a holier than thou attitude about it is for retards that don't have any actual accomplishments to be proud of. You're just as bad as the religious fundamentalists that believe everyone else to be a stupid heretic.


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## EdieFantabulous (Jun 22, 2010)

You can not disprove his existence can you?

God is associated with the universe, (The universe being God)
Jesus is associated with the Sun, (Son of God rises after a period of three days)
and then the rest is Myth, based on Legend, based upon Truth in the center.

Religion is an opinion, an opinion can not be wrong, or argued with.


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## Wreth (Jun 22, 2010)

EdieFantabulous said:


> an opinion can not be wrong, or argued with.




Really, even someone with the opinion that the act of pedophhillia is ok, I cannot argue? :Y


----------



## Pliio8 (Jun 22, 2010)

Corto said:


> Just to clarify I don't give a crap if you don't believe in God (if you're right, it won't matter. If I'm right, we're both going to hell anyway) but having a holier than thou attitude about it is for retards that don't have any actual accomplishments to be proud of. *You're just as bad as the religious fundamentalists that believe everyone else to be a stupid heretic.*


 
HOLY SHIT THIS

Truer words have never been spoken.


----------



## Browder (Jun 22, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> HOLY SHIT THIS
> 
> Truer words have never been spoken.


 This is why the forum loves Corto, yes. Get on the bandwagon.


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## Pliio8 (Jun 22, 2010)

Browder said:


> This is why the forum loves Corto, yes. Get on the bandwagon.


 
I don't love him, its just that I've never seen someone with the same idea about this. :v


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## EdieFantabulous (Jun 22, 2010)

Zoopedia said:


> Really, even someone with the opinion that the act of pedophhillia is ok, I cannot argue? :Y


 If they had fine reasoning for their opinion sure, since it happens in nature sometimes.
Humans have strayed completely from the path that nature provided.
I don't see anything wrong with anything unless it is proven.
Like Pedophillic behavior is strange, but it's a feeling they can't resist for some reason, or another, yeah it's wrong in a psychological way, but nature would perceive it as a defect. Nature can't be completely extinguished, just like humans trying to find truth, so many years of looking for it, it has become nature for us.


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## Browder (Jun 22, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> I don't love him, its just that I've never seen someone with the same idea about this. :v


 
Really? I stumble over this concept on the internet every few second. Most people online, ironically, just want to be left alone.


----------



## Pliio8 (Jun 22, 2010)

Browder said:


> Really? I stumble over this concept on the internet every few second. Most people online, ironically, just want to be left alone.


 
This is true. But it just so happens I get into this debate with nearly every Atheist I came across, its good to find some people who think the same, that it is not something to discuss, and it makes you no better than anyone else.


----------



## Corto (Jun 22, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> I don't love him, its just that I've never seen someone with the same idea about this. :v



Haha browder's kidding he actually hates me. 

Either way, there's mostly a reason to this. As he said, this is actually commonplace on the internet, not everyone (or even the majority) wants to convince everyone else that their opinion on religion is correct and yours makes you dumb. The problem is that, unsusprisingly, the most outspoken assholes are those that strive for attention, something that is reflected in their religion (or lack of it), hence the "IM AN ATHEIST AND THOSE WHO FOLLOW GOD ARE RETARDED" kinds and their counterpart, the "IM A RELIGIOUS NUT AND ALL OF YOU PAGAN HERETICS WILL BURN".
You never see people say what I did not because no one thinks so as well, but rather because they're smarter than me and realize it's mostly better leaving those idiots talking to themselves. It's just that I personally, when I get angry at retards, I prefer to say so.

EDIT: ALSO me english no muy bueno but I'm too tired to go fixing grammar and shit now. Hope it's clear enough to understand what I meant.


----------



## Ersatz (Jun 22, 2010)

Harmony said:


> I love all the cop-out answers.
> 
> How about I  don't know.
> Because really, that's the only answer and everything  else is bull because there's no way you can know. Pretending to have all  the answers is worse than not having any.
> ...


This,  100%.

Corto is also right, but I suppose that goes without saying.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

Corto said:


> Just to clarify I don't give a crap if you don't believe in God (if you're right, it won't matter. If I'm right, we're both going to hell anyway) but having a holier than thou attitude about it is for retards that don't have any actual accomplishments to be proud of. You're just as bad as the religious fundamentalists that believe everyone else to be a stupid heretic.


 
Oh absolutely.  Everyone here remembers the time atheists fought a crusade to exterminate the religious.  And fought to keep condoms out of AIDS-stricken Africa.  And sought to force a single definition of love aqnd family upon the world, upon penalty of death.  And flew planes into goddamned buildings.  Etc., etc., etc.

Oh wait, that wasn't us. We just wrote some books.

But that's JUST AS BAD.

But srsly, fuck you and everyone else that buys into false equivalency just to justify your own apathy.  You helped make the world the shithole it is today.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

double post, fucking mobile connection


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## Endless Humiliation (Jun 23, 2010)

that burn WAS actually so nice he made it twice


owned, croto

owned


----------



## lupinealchemist (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Oh absolutely.  Everyone here remembers the time atheists fought a crusade to exterminate the religious.  And fought to keep condoms out of AIDS-stricken Africa.  And sought to force a single definition of love aqnd family upon the world, upon penalty of death.  And flew planes into goddamned buildings.  Etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Oh wait, that wasn't us. We just wrote some books.
> 
> ...



u mad?


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

lupinealchemist said:


> u mad?


 
Just saying what needs to be said.  There's no way one could draw any parallels between religion and atheism from an objective and informed standpoint.  The only thing they have in common is that you're all too fucking _lazy_ to care to become informed about either.


----------



## Browder (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Just saying what needs to be said.  There's no way one could draw any parallels between religion and atheism from an *objective* and informed standpoint.  The only thing they have in common is that you're all too fucking _lazy_ to care to become informed about either.


 
The bolded bit is nonexistent but I dig what you're saying. However we don't really have that much of a model for comparison. There have been no major atheist societies or peoples so to compare atrocities isn't even possible.


----------



## lupinealchemist (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Just saying what needs to be said.  There's no way one could draw any parallels between religion and atheism from an objective and informed standpoint.  The only thing they have in common is that you're all too fucking _lazy_ to care to become informed about either.



One parallel is both sides often try to shove it down each other's throats and call the other side retarded for not agreeing with them.


----------



## Browder (Jun 23, 2010)

lupinealchemist said:


> One parallel is both sides often try to shove it down each other's throats and call the other side retarded for not agreeing with them.


 His point though was that only the religious end up killing. That's not good equivalency.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 23, 2010)

People really need to get off their high horse.


----------



## Enwon (Jun 23, 2010)

Why can't we all just get along?


----------



## lupinealchemist (Jun 23, 2010)

Browder said:


> His point though was that only the religious end up killing.


And I agree with that, but it doesn't make what I said any less true.


----------



## Corto (Jun 23, 2010)

EDIT:



lupinealchemist said:


> One parallel is both sides often try to shove it down each other's throats and call the other side retarded for not agreeing with them.


 
This is what I meant (me not good with words), I don't know why you need to be a dick and turn it into a topic about religious killings

EDIT x2: Nevermind everything else I said, this dude conveys my point perfectly. Besides I was overstepping the limit of how much I can insult someone before I get a gentle reminder that I'm not above the rules


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

Corto said:


> EDIT:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I lost your pre-edit post for quoting, but I'm not ignoring it.  Your first post was just as legitimately read as rhetorically declaring anyone taking a vocal stance on religion as having a "holier than thou attitude" as it was being read using it as a qualifying statement.  I am not accepting fault for your own failure to be unambiguous.

As for schools, I don't know what school taught you that epistemological proof is the only possible way to judge something as true or false, but their lesson plan must have been quite bereft of actual material if they held it to such an impossible standard.  It's not something that exists in the real world off paper, yet the rest of us manage to function without it.


----------



## Pliio8 (Jun 23, 2010)

Can I just say that Atheism isn't the absence of Religion, or would I be mindraeping you all? :3


----------



## Kobu (Jun 23, 2010)

This thread jumped out at me a little.  I'm not Christian or anything, but I don't see why people should be spewing crap about God's existence.  Religion is something people _believe_ in.  It is kept in oneself, and isn't the business of anyone else.  Saying God doesn't exist to a Catholic means nothing.  They're set in their beliefs just as much as one who doesn't believe. 


Pliio8 said:


> Can I just say that Atheism isn't the absence of Religion, or would I be mindraeping you all? :3


 What would Atheism be then? The belief in the absence of religion?  Or the belief of nothing?


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> Can I just say that Atheism isn't the absence of Religion, or would I be mindraeping you all? :3


 
You would be lying.


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## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

fucking double posts


----------



## Pliio8 (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> You would be lying.


 
Theism = Belief in a God
Religion = Adherence to a doctrine or Dogma, not a belief in God
Atheism = Belief in no God (A = No, Theism = Belief in God)
Irreligion = Adherence to no Doctrine or Dogma
Anti-Religion = Hate for the religious
Antitheist = Hate for the beleivers in God.

There are such things as Atheistic Religions, Like Bhuddism, or Gnosticism.

Mindraep? I hope so. This is what I get to show off for two and a half years of Theology class. Actual, fucking knowledge of the subject being discussed.

Hence forth, I can be Atheist, yet still be spiritual.

Equally: Theism =/= Religion
Therefore Atheism Can= Religion


----------



## Kobu (Jun 23, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> Theism = Belief in a God
> Religion = Adherence to a doctrine or Dogma, not a belief in God
> Atheism = Belief in no God (A = No, Theism = Belief in God)
> Irreligion = Adherence to no Doctrine or Dogma
> ...


 That's only true if you break the word into it's roots.  Atheism as a whole word means "*2 a* *:* a disbelief in the existence of  deity *b* *:* the doctrine that there is  no deity"  (From webster.com).


----------



## Corto (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> I lost your pre-edit post for quoting, but I'm not ignoring it.  Your first post was just as legitimately read as rhetorically declaring anyone taking a vocal stance on religion as having a "holier than thou attitude" as it was being read using it as a qualifying statement.  I am not accepting fault for your own failure to be unambiguous.
> 
> As for schools, I don't know what school taught you that epistemological proof is the only possible way to judge something as true or false, but their lesson plan must have been quite bereft of actual material if they held it to such an impossible standard.  It's not something that exists in the real world off paper, yet the rest of us manage to function without it.



Man I don't even care. Did you at least understand what I was trying to say?


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

Pliio8 said:


> Theism = Belief in a God
> Religion = Adherence to a doctrine or Dogma, not a belief in God
> Atheism = Belief in no God (A = No, Theism = Belief in God)
> Irreligion = Adherence to no Doctrine or Dogma
> ...


 
First, atheism is "no belief in god", not "belief in no God".  Somehow you managed to break its roots down into "no" and "belief in god" and still rearrange it into the more self-serving "belief in no God".  This, after you claimed to have read The God Delusion.

Second, none of that supports your original post as stated.  While you can try to take advantage of word roots to use the strictest definition possible and say "theism" is a narrower scope than "religion", atheism still means nothing more than an absence of that entire set of religions.  Atheism in and of itself certainly is still not a religion, so your last statement that "atheism can = religion" is false.  At best, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive when using your own less commonly used definitions.

mind = not raeped
you = wasted two and a half years of your life


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

Corto said:


> Man I don't even care. Did you at least understand what I was trying to say?


 
I see and understand your distinction now.  My post still stands for any among those that agreed with you that read your post as I did (particularly one that almost certainly did).  Do you understand that outside teenage rebellion, vocal atheism is motivated by outrage at atrocities such as those I listed and not just trying to be the cool kids?


----------



## Corto (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> I see and understand your distinction now.  My post still stands for any among those that agreed with you that read your post as I did (particularly one that almost certainly did).  Do you understand that outside teenage rebellion, vocal atheism is motivated by outrage at atrocities such as those I listed and not just trying to be the cool kids?


Actually, yes.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm posting from a new phone and am obviously having an issue of some sort.  I posted this once already but I don't see it now so I hope I'm not double-posting again.



Corto said:


> Actually, yes.



Alright.  I admit I haven't had decent sleep in days, and if that were not the case I might have been able to read your post more charitably, so I do apologize for my initial hostility.


----------



## Telnac (Jun 23, 2010)

@OP: you're joking, right?

http://www.illogica.org/azpod/testimony.html

And that's just for starters...


----------



## Xile (Jun 23, 2010)

.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Jun 23, 2010)

Somebody mis-defined Atheism - Now this thread is getting interesting!

Kooky words are being made up!


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 23, 2010)

Xile said:


> Interesting... someone purposely starts a religious battle. @ KittyKat



Yes, one that's lasted 6 pages despite its  first posts's lack of substance.


----------



## Kommodore (Jun 23, 2010)

Lobar said:


> But that's JUST AS BAD.
> 
> But srsly, fuck you  and everyone else that buys into false equivalency just to justify your  own apathy.



I disagree. The situations you outlined were actions taken by individuals or factions acting under whatever motivation they have. This is independent from individuals who choose to express their "hollier than tho" attitudes in a strictly verbal/visual sense. Provided you make the qualification that you are referring to the fundies that do not oppress/kill people, a comparison between them and vocal atheists is perfectly legitimate.


----------



## Mattqat (Jun 24, 2010)

Not to state any of my own opinions on religion (because that can only lead to conflict), but we did an interesting proof in my logic class this morning that the fact that the universe is well-ordered (i.e. the laws of physics work, etc.) does not lend any validity to the existence of a creating deity.  I don't think anyone's actually made that argument in this thread, but I felt an injection of logic was needed, because logic is one thing threads like this need more of.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 24, 2010)

Kommodore said:


> I disagree. The situations you outlined were actions taken by individuals or factions acting under whatever motivation they have. This is independent from individuals who choose to express their "hollier than tho" attitudes in a strictly verbal/visual sense. Provided you make the qualification that you are referring to the fundies that do not oppress/kill people, a comparison between them and vocal atheists is perfectly legitimate.


 
It's already been said that I read his post in a way he didn't intend and we've moved on.


----------



## Koronikov (Jun 24, 2010)

Aden said:


> Way to help us atheists' image, bro.


 
Well said

Also if you dis-like Christians the best method about going against them is not raging at them in a forum, the proof of a god will show itself eventually whether or not were fucked when /if this happens is up to the morality of said "god" 
*sidenote Athiest


----------



## Kobu (Jun 24, 2010)

Mattqat said:


> Not to state any of my own opinions on religion (because that can only lead to conflict), but we did an interesting proof in my logic class this morning that the fact that the universe is well-ordered (i.e. the laws of physics work, etc.) does not lend any validity to the existence of a creating deity.  I don't think anyone's actually made that argument in this thread, but I felt an injection of logic was needed, because logic is one thing threads like this need more of.


 Logic and religion don't mix.  I don't mean to impose my beliefs, but religion asks one to believe without proof (hence the term faith).  Logic proposes we believe... with proof.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 24, 2010)

Kobu said:


> Logic and religion don't mix.  I don't mean to impose my beliefs, but religion asks one to believe without proof (hence the term faith).  Logic proposes we believe... with proof.


 
Hence faith and religion are illogical.  Well done.


----------



## Akro (Jun 24, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Hence faith and religion are illogical.  Well done.


 But for all Christians who are "CRAZY FOR T3H JESUS" They just say "Fuck logic, I can jump off this cliff and survive if God told me too"
There is no difference between many of the gods of this world... yet they all hate each other.

Also just putting this out there, If god was good, why did Moses go to hell? (In the bible; I used to be christian)


----------



## Kobu (Jun 24, 2010)

Akro said:


> But for all Christians who are "CRAZY FOR T3H JESUS" They just say "Fuck logic, I can jump off this cliff and survive if God told me too"
> There is no difference between many of the gods of this world... yet they all hate each other.
> 
> Also just putting this out there, If god was good, why did Moses go to hell? (In the bible; I used to be christian)


 Moses went to hell?  I don't recall that being in the bible.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 24, 2010)

Akro said:


> But for all Christians who are "CRAZY FOR T3H JESUS" They just say "Fuck logic, I can jump off this cliff and survive if God told me too"
> There is no difference between many of the gods of this world... yet they all hate each other.
> 
> Also just putting this out there, If god was good, why did Moses go to hell? (In the bible; I used to be christian)


 
Book and chapter:verse?  I recall that he was not permitted to cross the Jordan River into the Land of Israel and died there, but not that he went to Hell after.  I don't think Hell was even introduced until the New Testament.


----------



## CrispSkittlez (Jun 24, 2010)

I know people that believe in god.

A lot of them are really awesome people.


----------



## Kommodore (Jun 24, 2010)

Lobar said:


> It's already been said that I read his post in a way he didn't intend and we've moved on.


 Okay sorry nice talking to you!


----------



## Telnac (Jun 24, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Book and chapter:verse?  I recall that he was not permitted to cross the Jordan River into the Land of Israel and died there, but not that he went to Hell after.  I don't think Hell was even introduced until the New Testament.


 Some Christians believe that everyone in the OT prior to Jesus went to Hell b/c they weren't Christians (kinda by definition.)  The Bible, however, doesn't teach that.  Quite the contrary, Acts 17:30 states that God overlooked even the ignorance of the Pagan Greeks prior to the days of Christ.  If God was willing to overlook the ignorance of OT pagans, why would He condemn Moses to Hell?

[Edit]Rude of me to not include the actual verse I referenced, and Acts 17:29 as well for context:

_Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the  divine being is like gold or silver or stoneâ€”an image made by man's  design and skill. In the  past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people  everywhere to repent._


----------



## Lobar (Jun 25, 2010)

Telnac said:


> Some Christians believe that everyone in the OT prior to Jesus went to Hell b/c they weren't Christians (kinda by definition.)  The Bible, however, doesn't teach that.  Quite the contrary, Acts 17:30 states that God overlooked even the ignorance of the Pagan Greeks prior to the days of Christ.  If God was willing to overlook the ignorance of OT pagans, why would He condemn Moses to Hell?


 
Personally I think that might be reading Acts a bit too generously, but thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Kobu (Jun 25, 2010)

Telnac said:


> Some Christians believe that everyone in the OT prior to Jesus went to Hell b/c they weren't Christians (kinda by definition.)  The Bible, however, doesn't teach that.  Quite the contrary, Acts 17:30 states that God overlooked even the ignorance of the Pagan Greeks prior to the days of Christ.  If God was willing to overlook the ignorance of OT pagans, why would He condemn Moses to Hell?
> 
> [Edit]Rude of me to not include the actual verse I referenced, and Acts 17:29 as well for context:
> 
> _Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the  divine being is like gold or silver or stoneâ€”an image made by man's  design and skill. In the  past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people  everywhere to repent._


 Reminds me of the joke of the Native American man who asks a priest, "If I didn't know about God, would I go to hell?"
The priest replied, "No, of course not!"
The Native American replied angerly, "Then why did you tell me?!"


----------



## Subrosa (Jun 25, 2010)

sure is 15-19 year old atheist in here OP.


----------



## Browder (Jun 25, 2010)

Subrosa said:


> sure is 15-19 year old atheist in here OP.


 
You give OP too many years. I'd say twelve at a push.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 25, 2010)

Subrosa said:


> sure is 15-19 year old atheist in here OP.


 
nobody cares about the OP


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Jun 25, 2010)

When it comes to religion, I think Spider Jerusalem sums it up pretty well.


----------



## Kobu (Jun 25, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> When it cxomes to religion, I think Spider Jerusalem [URL="http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2310/thetruthd.jpg]sums it up pretty well[/URL].


 Broken links make me .


----------



## Ames (Jun 25, 2010)

Kobu said:


> Broken links make me .


 
This is what he was trying to link, but I still think this thread needs to die.


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Jun 25, 2010)

Kobu said:


> Broken links make me .


 
Blame the forum software, it's retarded.


----------



## Kobu (Jun 25, 2010)

JamesB said:


> This is what he was trying to link, but I still think this thread needs to die.


 It's a bit due to die if we're throwing comics around.  

Oh, I think I just helped it. ;(


----------



## BlackDragonAlpha (Jun 25, 2010)

Well, somebody's feeling negative...
I still believe in God. Although, i do have some doubts about him.

...and from thinking too much I thought maybe "God" is humankind's will or God is us humans. We might have created an almighty being due to our longing for a leader/creator. Thinking about that makes me wonder what God really looks like. Will he appear when we all perish in the Apocalypse?( I am not talking about 2012)

damn it! My curiosity just keeps getting bigger! XP


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 25, 2010)

Kobu said:


> Reminds me of the joke of the Native American man who asks a priest, "If I didn't know about God, would I go to hell?"
> The priest replied, "No, of course not!"
> The Native American replied angerly, "Then why did you tell me?!"


 

For the longest time in my life I thought the same thing.


----------



## Telnac (Jun 26, 2010)

Well, that joke has one flaw: even if God's willing to overlook one's ignorance about His existence or lack thereof, you're still on the hook for your own conduct.  That's kinda the whole point of repentance & forgiveness.


----------



## Kaizy (Jun 26, 2010)

Weee religion thread
Im agnostic
Dunno what to believe, Im open to just about anything, but I dont think of religion as a super major thing
I was raised Christian, and a lot of the concepts confused me as a child because of how little sense they made, and how I could never get answers for them
I didnt realize I was agnostic until 2 years ago
Im sure my dad wouldnt really care seeing how hes not really religious at all, but my mom might freak if she knew I had a single doubt in my mind about being Christian

Also I pray, but its more of a ritualistic thing since Ive grown accustomed to doing it every night since I was like 5
I think of it as a small vent in a way, so I suppose its somewhat useful for me



Also, YOU AINT GOT NO PANCAKE MIX


----------



## Pavi (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm an agnostic.
I approach all system's of belief with an open mind, and I never outwardly judge or disagree with them. Perhaps engage in a mature, ethical debate but never just shoot them down like I'm some all-knowing fuck who gobbles up opposing views and shits the truth. 
Nobody can provide complete, whole, fool-proof evidence to support whatever side they've chose to follow. 
So, if you're religious, good for you. Keep believing what you believe.
And if you're non-religious, see above.
It's really as simple as that. Just leave everyone else the hell alone, and keep your self-righteous opinions to yourself.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

Pavi said:


> I'm an agnostic.
> I approach all system's of belief with an open mind, and I never outwardly judge or disagree with them. Perhaps engage in a mature, ethical debate but never just shoot them down like I'm some all-knowing fuck who gobbles up opposing views and shits the truth.
> Nobody can provide complete, whole, fool-proof evidence to support whatever side they've chose to follow.
> So, if you're religious, good for you. Keep believing what you believe.
> ...


 
because atheists aren't open-minded now
protip: openminded != letting your brains fall out


----------



## LupineStorm (Jun 27, 2010)

Wow. I can't even believe OP had the nerve to open this thread on the internet. I tried to talk about the decline of mainstream music and got absolutely flame-pwned-zerglingrushed. 

Anyway, did anyone bring up the Celestial Teapot yet? It's basically the idea that if I told you there was a teapot orbiting in between Earth and Mars, but too small to see with conventional telescopes, you couldn't possibly prove it didn't exist. However it would be ridiculous for me to say that it MUST exist because you can't prove it wrong. In fact, you would probably dismiss the teapot as garbage and go on with your life.


----------



## MichaelFoster (Jun 27, 2010)

I got myself banned last time I had a conversation on one of these threads. All I'm gonna say is I'll always be a misotheist and god can suck on ma schlong.


----------



## Ersatz (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> because atheists aren't open-minded now


The ones who act being atheist actually means anything aren't. They're too far up their own bungs to be. :V



> protip: openminded != letting your brains fall out


Since when does everybody use "!=" instead of "=/="? I thought this was a furry forum, not a programming forum.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> For the longest time in my life I thought the same thing.


 
This.

It's a seriously important observation that people just dismiss.

If not knowing about the Bible God will get you into Heaven, then the most _vile, selfish_ thing Christians can do is spread the word. 
Even going on TV or publishing books that may be read by non-Christians should be a terrible thing, because once they know, they're "choosing" not to believe it and thus get to be tortured forever.

Christians who claim that God won't punish ignorant people should be rallying to silence their faith and literally save billions of people from eternal fire.


----------



## Tally (Jun 27, 2010)

I found a new way to deal with Christians.

I tell them to prove that I didn't create the universe, then use their own "beyond comprehension" arguments against whatever reasons they come up with for why I didn't create the universe. It's funny to see them say "that's a stupid argument."


----------



## Thatch (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> because atheists aren't open-minded now
> protip: openminded != letting your brains fall out


 
Haha, gold. Sig'd.


----------



## Mulefa Zalif (Jun 27, 2010)

God has given us the furry fandom.
That's proof enough that he exists.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 27, 2010)

Tally said:


> I found a new way to deal with Christians.
> 
> I tell them to prove that I didn't create the universe, then use their own "beyond comprehension" arguments against whatever reasons they come up with for why I didn't create the universe. It's funny to see them say "that's a stupid argument."



If something is beyond the comprehension of someone's glorified  ganglion of a brain, then doesn't that make any explanation they pull out of their ass instantly wrong?


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

Mulefa Zalif said:


> God has given us the furry fandom.
> That's proof enough that he exists.


 
Or proof that he doesn't. x3


----------



## Thatch (Jun 27, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> Or proof that he doesn't. x3


 
Definitely doesn't.

Or he's the jewish god. What an asshole.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

Thatch said:


> Definitely doesn't.
> 
> Or he's the jewish god. What an asshole.


 
But that's the same go--


----------



## mystery_penguin (Jun 27, 2010)

I believe God created evolution, the big bang and such.

So sue me.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

mystery_penguin said:


> I believe God created evolution, the big bang and such.
> 
> So sue me.


 
I'LL SEE YOU IN COURT.

Also, which god?


----------



## mystery_penguin (Jun 27, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> I'LL SEE YOU IN COURT.
> 
> Also, which god?


 The Christian one

INB4 "LOL CONTRADICTION", because no... It isn't.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

mystery_penguin said:


> The Christian one
> 
> INB4 "LOL CONTRADICTION", because no... It isn't.


 
YAHWEH. :3

The Bible is vauge enough to imply it, though the "seven days" parts takes a bit of "pulling things out of my ass" to get around.


----------



## Enwon (Jun 27, 2010)

I believe that there is no God.  How do I prove that?  Newspaper comics.

As we all know, newspaper comics are genuinely awful.  These unholy abominations mysteriously spawned in newspapers during the 1950s, and over time, have slowly eaten people's souls.  These boring and stupid evil and demonic comics are unholy abominations against all entertainment good.  If there was a God with any good in him, he would vaporize newspaper cartoonists so that their stupid evil comics would no longer make it to the syndicates.  And, if God was evil, he'd vaporize those cartoonists anyways for not being entertaining being too evil , because even a completely evil God would look at the newspaper and say "this is fucking boring evil, even for my standards!"

That is how I disproved the existence of God.


----------



## Willow (Jun 27, 2010)

I once saw a white dove


----------



## Shaui (Jun 27, 2010)

Op is an idiot

I don't hate you for not believing in God but you don't have to rub your viewpoint in my face.

Such one-sided bullshit is for livejournal.

EDIT: To answer your question, the two things God has to do for me are give me a sense of love for humanity/nature and to give me patience.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> The ones who act being atheist actually means anything aren't. They're too far up their own bungs to be. :V



well it means that I'm not misguided by magical thinking, contributing to the decline of civilization
and as a vocal skeptic all around I'm actively discouraging it on others' parts



Ersatz said:


> Since when does everybody use "!=" instead of "=/="? I thought this was a furry forum, not a programming forum.


 
one character fewer


----------



## Trance (Jun 27, 2010)

Pfft, i'm agnostic.

I don't particularly believe or disbelieve.

Agnostics are to religion as Bisexuals are to sexual orientation.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

TranceFur said:


> Pfft, i'm agnostic.
> 
> I don't particularly believe or disbelieve.
> 
> Agnostics are to religion as Bisexuals are to sexual orientation.


 
this is why atheists won't identify as agnostic despite most of them technically falling just within the scope of the common definition of the term


----------



## Tally (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> this is why atheists won't identify as agnostic despite most of them technically falling just within the scope of the common definition of the term


 
The atheist who are too scared of Hell to call themselves atheist call themselves agnostics.



TranceFur said:


> Agnostics are to religion as Bisexuals are to sexual orientation.


 
So you like religion and you also like to not believe it?


----------



## Thatch (Jun 27, 2010)

Tally said:


> So you like religion and you also like to not believe it?


 
Yeah, "asuxual" would be a better comparison. :V


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

Tally said:


> The atheist who are too scared of Hell to call themselves atheist call themselves agnostics.


 
On a srs note, it's a disgustingly sad world we live in where even good people are subconsciously afraid of being sent to Hell.


----------



## Tally (Jun 27, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> On a srs note, it's a disgustingly sad world we live in where even good people are subconsciously afraid of being sent to Hell.


 
The idea of being eternally punished is a scary one.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

Tally said:


> The idea of being eternally punished is a scary one.


 
It shouldn't be an idea.
It shouldn't be taught to _children_.


----------



## Tally (Jun 27, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> It shouldn't be an idea.
> It shouldn't be taught to _children_.


 
But then no one would want to be Christian..............................

You're right, lets get it banned from being taught.


----------



## Willow (Jun 27, 2010)

Medieval days were fun


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jun 27, 2010)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> If something is beyond the comprehension of someone's glorified ganglion of a brain, then doesn't that make any explanation they pull out of their ass instantly wrong?


 
If it is beyond comprehension, can you not argue that due to the lack of empirical evidence(i.e. None) in their argument, that their conclusions are invalid?


----------



## Tally (Jun 27, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> Medieval days were fun


 
Imagine if superstitions from back then still continued today? Would be funny as hell. 

Notice the use of Hell.


----------



## Willow (Jun 27, 2010)

Tally said:


> Imagine if superstitions from back then still continued today? Would be funny as hell.
> 
> Notice the use of Hell.


 Hahaha

"If you don't believe in God, he'll destroy your crops and kill your livestock"


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> Hahaha
> 
> "If you don't believe in God, he'll destroy your crops and kill your livestock"


 
Or a bit later, it was the witches.
I like how once accused of witchcraft, the women/children could NOT get out of torture and death at the hands of the Church.

Way to go, Christianity.


----------



## Willow (Jun 27, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> Or a bit later, it was the witches.
> I like how once accused of witchcraft, the women/children could NOT get out of torture and death at the hands of the Church.
> 
> Way to go, Christianity.


 *clap*clap*

I really think that Joan of Arc was charged with witchcraft because the English were sore losers


----------



## Tewin Follow (Jun 27, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> *clap*clap*
> 
> I really think that Joan of Arc was charged with witchcraft because the English were sore losers



Probably. xD


----------



## Pavi (Jun 27, 2010)

> because atheists aren't open-minded now
> protip: openminded != letting your brains fall out



...I never said atheists weren't open-minded. I'm not in a position to pass judgment on an entire collection of people like that. 
I was just stating my personal views, and how I think people should just be satisfied with their own opinions and not attack other people if they think differently.


----------



## Ersatz (Jun 27, 2010)

I agree with what Pavi said. Believe what you want, but don't try to cram it down others' throats, or you're no better than the religious types you complain about.



Lobar said:


> well it means that I'm not misguided by magical thinking, contributing to the decline of civilization
> and as a vocal skeptic all around I'm actively discouraging it on others' parts


Rejecting "magical thinking" does not in and of itself make you any less of a burden on society. I've met plenty of atheists who were useless sacks of shit, and I've met plenty of religious folks who were actually useful members of society. So you're only right about one of those. Congrats on being exactly the kind of arrogant prat I was talking about, though! 



> one character fewer


Well, obviously. I'm just not sure how a bunch of non-programmers ever saw it in the first place, much less how it caught on. :V


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> I agree with what Pavi said. Believe what you want, but don't try to cram it down others' throats, or you're no better than the religious types you complain about.
> 
> 
> Rejecting "magical thinking" does not in and of itself make you any less of a burden on society. I've met plenty of atheists who were useless sacks of shit, and I've met plenty of religious folks who were actually useful members of society. So you're only right about one of those. Congrats on being exactly the kind of arrogant prat I was talking about, though!



I'm not talking about productivity, I'm talking about the promotion of nonsense that motivates people to go out and cause harm to others while thinking they're doing good.

As the old saying goes, "Good people will do good, and evil people will do evil, but to get the good to do evil, that takes a religion!"

I'm confidently convinced of my position, but I'm not arrogant.



Ersatz said:


> Well, obviously. I'm just not sure how a bunch of non-programmers ever saw it in the first place, much less how it caught on. :V


 
The internet is the natural habitat of computer science types.  For what it's worth, I pretty much always see =/= used here and I'm familiar with != because I've done a small amount of coding myself.


----------



## Trance (Jun 27, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Tally*
> 
> So you like religion and you also like to not believe it?



Religion is fine.  I have nothing against it or anyone who practices it.

Like I said;  I don't believe or disbelieve, although there are benefits to not being religious.

And downsides... What if its all true?  Sucks for me!  That's why i'm considered agnostic.  
I just don't know.  But i'm not going to completely deny the possibility...


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

TranceFur said:


> And downsides... What if its all true?  Sucks for me!  That's why i'm considered agnostic.
> I just don't know.  But i'm not going to completely deny the possibility...


 
Pascal's Wager is seriously what's holding you back?  Argument from consequences is never a good basis for deciding true or false.  Plus, if there is a God, you think he's not going to see through your "fire insurance"?


----------



## Tally (Jun 27, 2010)

TranceFur said:


> Religion is fine.  I have nothing against it or anyone who practices it.
> 
> Like I said;  I don't believe or disbelieve, although there are benefits to not being religious.
> 
> ...



If you are going to think like that... What if the Jews are right? Or Muslims? Or another bizzare religion?

You have to become one of everything in order to have to same insurance that you are not going to go to Hell as I do.


----------



## Trance (Jun 27, 2010)

I dunno Tally.  Whatever the fuck happens, happens.

I'm going to live my life without fear of hell.

 If there is something after death, i'll just have to deal.   *shrug*


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

TranceFur said:


> I dunno Tally.  Whatever the fuck happens, happens.
> 
> I'm going to live my life without fear of hell.
> 
> If there is something after death, i'll just have to deal.   *shrug*


 
For the record, most atheists don't "completely deny" the possibility, either.  But it is relegated to the very edge of improbability, in company with Bigfoot, the world ending in 2012, and Obama being an Al-Qaeda Manchurian Candidate.


----------



## Trance (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> For the record, most atheists don't "completely deny" the possibility, either.  But it is relegated to the very edge of improbability, in company with Bigfoot, the world ending in 2012, and Obama being an Al-Qaeda Manchurian Candidate.


 
I know a couple who do completly deny.   Its retarded...  Like, they sneeze, someone says "bless you", and they freak.
I'm not contradicting you though.  Its just these ones i've seen in school that seem to like to flaunt their athieism (or whatever its called) for some odd reason.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 27, 2010)

TranceFur said:


> I know a couple who do completly deny.   Its retarded...  Like, they sneeze, someone says "bless you", and they freak.
> I'm not contradicting you though.  Its just these ones i've seen in school that seem to like to flaunt their athieism (or whatever its called) for some odd reason.


 
As a general rule, teenagers do not really represent the ideal of whatever they may happen to be into.


----------



## Willow (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> As a general rule, teenagers do not really represent the ideal of whatever they may happen to be into.


 This is true in most cases


----------



## Trance (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> As a general rule, teenagers do not really represent the ideal of whatever they may happen to be into.


 
True


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jun 27, 2010)

Lobar said:


> As a general rule, teenagers do not really represent the ideal of whatever they may happen to be into.


 


WillowWulf said:


> This is true in most cases


 
This is true in all cases.


----------



## Telnac (Jun 28, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> This.
> 
> It's a seriously important observation that people just dismiss.
> 
> ...


As I said in a previous post, ignorance of God may get you off the hook for worshiping a stone statue with the head of a hawk, but it doesn't deal with the willful misdeeds that you have committed against other people.  That's the whole point of Christianity: the entire reason people can find forgiveness for their sins is because Jesus paid the price for it all when He died on the cross.  That's the one & only thing that sets Christianity apart from any of the other religions.

As for Hell being a place where sinners burn for all time, I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches.  I believe Hell was created for the Devil and his rebellion angels, and they'll be the ones burning there for all time (deservedly so.)  For ordinary people, it's a literal second death: the one place where one's body & soul can be destroyed.


----------



## Mayfurr (Jun 28, 2010)

Telnac said:


> As for Hell being a place where sinners burn for all time, I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches.  I believe Hell was created for the Devil and his rebellion angels, and they'll be the ones burning there for all time (deservedly so.) * For ordinary people, it's a literal second death: the one place where one's body & soul can be destroyed.*



In other words, returning to the state of non-existence that existed for someone before they were born. ("I didn't exist for thousands of years before I was born..." - I forget who said that.)  

Compared to the fundie version of everlasting fire and brimstone, eternal oblivion actually doesn't seem so bad - which is why the fundies push the fire and brimstone (with extra torture) every chance they get.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 28, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> In other words, returning to the state of non-existence that existed for someone before they were born. ("I didn't exist for thousands of years before I was born..." - I forget who said that.)
> 
> Compared to the fundie version of everlasting fire and brimstone, eternal oblivion actually doesn't seem so bad - which is why the fundies push the fire and brimstone (with extra torture) every chance they get.



Because they're filthy savages that like that kind of thing?


----------



## Jelly (Jun 28, 2010)

So, I've noticed from time-to-time (and this is mostly unrelated, but since this thread is all over the place) on the forums that people refer to non-Catholics as not true Christians as a way to rebuke all other sects as being convenient liars so they can more easily just ignore them or whatever they want
and like
whats up with that


----------



## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Because they're filthy savages that like that kind of thing?


 
your words



Jelly said:


> So, I've noticed from time-to-time (and this is mostly unrelated, but since this thread is all over the place) on the forums that people refer to non-Catholics as not true Christians as a way to rebuke all other sects as being convenient liars so they can more easily just ignore them or whatever they want
> and like
> whats up with that


 
And vice versa, with equal frequency.

All the True Scotsman arguments need to be put to bed.  If they affirm the divinity of Christ, they're Christian, and you can just deal with their conduct.


----------



## Moonfall The Fox (Jun 28, 2010)

God's not real. And if he were, the thing he could do for me is die.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm gonna get on a soapbox here really quick.

You know what I really hate about atheists? You guys don't have any more proof of your beliefs than the religious types. It's pretentious and self-serving (among other things) to claim you _know_ whether there is or is not any sort of supernatural being, whether or not there's an afterlife, etc. etc., when you don't have any proof.

And I'm sorry, but all you guys on both sides need to learn that arguments and thought experiments are not now and never will be the same as cold, hard evidence. That's why I'm an absurdist--it's agosticism with the balls to laugh at everyone else.

I'd also like to add that if I really, really like one thing about Christianity, it's that nobody accepts Jesus to seem hip and edgy.



Lobar said:


> I'm not talking about productivity, I'm talking about the promotion of nonsense that motivates people to go out and cause harm to others while thinking they're doing good.


And you don't think people can use atheism as a justification for the same thing? Because, unfortunately for your argument, plenty of them can and often do.

Ohhh, that's right--the rest of us aren't supposed to judge _atheists_ on the whole just because of the actions a few extremists take, are we? We're supposed to reserve that kind of snap judgement for the theists.



> As the old saying goes, "Good people will do good, and evil people will do evil, but to get the good to do evil, that takes a religion!"


You know, a saying that's old and snarky isn't automatically right.

If you could take away religion, you'd have the exact same crapsack world, just with a lot fewer homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Chew on that for a while, Mr. Bigshot Atheist.



> I'm confidently convinced of my position, but I'm not arrogant.


Oh, no. My friend, you are indeed arrogant. You're _arrogant_ for thinking you're actually doing a damn thing to stop the decline of civilization just by sitting your fat ass in a chair and yelling "There is no god!" at people on the Internet.



> The internet is the natural habitat of computer science types.  For what it's worth, I pretty much always see =/= used here and I'm familiar with != because I've done a small amount of coding myself.


Hm. I used to use it on a few forums I frequented, but everyone was like "what"...


Moonfall The Fox said:


> God's not real. And if he were, the thing he could do for me is die.


Or He could do something good for the rest of the world and kill your self-important ass.


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## Tabasco (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> If you could take away religion, you'd have the exact same crapsack world, just with a lot fewer homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Chew on that for a while, Mr. Bigshot Atheist.


 
Lol, no. Lots of people do good and charitable things without religion as their cause.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Blues said:


> Lol, no. Lots of people do good and charitable things without religion as their cause.


Riiiiiight. Which is why so many soup kitchens and homeless shelters in the United States are run and funded largely or entirely by church congregations? And why many of of them are located either in churches or on the same patch of land as one?

Nice try, but maybe you should do a little research next time~


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 28, 2010)

Telnac said:


> As for Hell being a place where sinners burn for all time, I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches.  I believe Hell was created for the Devil and his rebellion angels, and they'll be the ones burning there for all time (deservedly so.) * For ordinary people, it's a literal second death*: the one place where one's body & soul can be destroyed.


 
               [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]*Revelation  20:13-15:* "_...hell delivered up the dead which were in           them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  *This is the second           death*. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life  was cast into the lake of fire._"[/FONT]

The Bible disagrees.

Is it Christian to make your own (nicer) assumptions of what the Bible teaches, you know? 
And doesn't that say something? You wish something kinder to happen people than God does. You have more love for people than he does and know that burning someone forever is out of order.


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## Jelly (Jun 28, 2010)

Blues said:


> Lol, no. Lots of people do good and charitable things without religion as their cause.


 
Yeah, but just like liberalism and law goads bad people into acting for the common good
so does religion
or something.


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## Tabasco (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Riiiiiight. Which is why so many soup kitchens and homeless shelters in the United States are run and funded largely or entirely by church congregations? And why many of of them are located either in churches or on the same patch of land as one?
> 
> Nice try, but maybe you should do a little research next time~



I can name multiple charitable organizations locally that aren't religious, actually~

P.S. If you want people to take your words to heart, don't speak in condescending or holier-than-thou tones. It's really not a productive or mature way to debate.


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## Mayfurr (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> You know what I really hate about atheists? You guys don't have any more proof of your beliefs than the religious types. It's pretentious and self-serving (among other things) to claim you _know_ whether there is or is not any sort of supernatural being, whether or not there's an afterlife, etc. etc., when you don't have any proof.



The burden of proof is on those who make the claim that there IS a God, an afterlife, etc... I could claim that an invisible pink unicorn actually created the universe and requires everyone to provide offerings of blueberry muffins at my house on a daily basis, but I doubt you'd take me seriously without _some _proof. Yet as far as _your_ godinvisible pink unicorn is concerned, you expect everyone to accept there is a god just on the say-so of a bunch of 'holy' men and a 'holy' book with a vested self-interest?



Ersatz said:


> And you don't think there's any way an atheist can believe he's doing good while at the same time doing harm to everyone else? [...]
> 
> If you could take away religion, you'd have the exact same crapsack world, just with a lot fewer homeless shelters and soup kitchens.



So you reckon that only religion enables people to care and do good in the community? Yeah, right.

And you have the nerve to call _atheists_ arrogant? 



Ersatz said:


> You're arrogant for thinking you're actually doing anything to stop the decline of civilization just by sitting your fat ass in a chair and yelling "There is no god!" at people on the Internet.



I could say the same about people sitting their fat asses in a chair and yelling "There IS a god and you'd better start worshipping him, repent you heathen scum!" at other people on the Internet...


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## Jelly (Jun 28, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]*Revelation  20:13-15:* "_...hell delivered up the dead which were in           them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  *This is the second           death*. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life  was cast into the lake of fire._"[/FONT]
> 
> The Bible disagrees.


 
If you agree that Revelation belongs in the Bible. Not all Christians do, since it is a metaphorical interpretation of John's nightmare. It has, really, nothing to do with Christ except for symbology. Calvin, Luther, and Jefferson all had pretty awkward feelings about it belonging in canon. Matthew also discusses Hell as an actual place (I guess), but he does so with less physical description. Descriptions of Hell are typically vague.


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## ADF (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> I'm gonna get on a soapbox here really quick.
> 
> You know what I really hate about atheists? *You guys don't have any more proof of your beliefs than the religious types.* It's pretentious and self-serving (among other things) to claim you _know_ whether there is or is not any sort of supernatural being, whether or not there's an afterlife, etc. etc., when you don't have any proof.



What a crock of shit.

There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a God, no evidence, that's a damn good reason not to believe in anything. If you have a problem with that; I have invisible gold to sell you.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Blues said:


> I can name multiple charitable organizations locally that aren't religious, actually~


And I can name plenty of _local_ ones that are. How about national? Or international? Hell, let's get some statistics up in this bitch--how many international charities are religious versus being secular, and how much money altogether goes toward feeding and sheltering people in each category?



> P.S. If you want people to take your words to heart, don't speak in condescending or holier-than-thou tones. It's really not a productive or mature way to debate.


Sorry, next time I'll just say "lol" and make some half-assed reply that has no bearing on what was actually said, just like you.


ADF said:


> Durpadurpadurpa absence of evidence = evidence of absence


Fixed that for you. You're also wrong, btw.


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## Tabasco (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> And I can name plenty of _local_ ones that are. How about national? Or international? Hell, let's get some statistics up in this bitch--how many international charities are religious versus being secular, and how much money altogether goes toward feeding and sheltering people in each category?
> 
> Sorry, next time I'll just say "lol" and make some half-assed reply that has no bearing on what was actually said, just like you.


 
I'm sorry, I can't hear your argument over your ego. The daycare is that-a-way. :U


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 28, 2010)

Jelly said:


> If you agree that Revelation belongs in the Bible. Not all Christians do, since it is a metaphorical interpretation of John's nightmare. It has, really, nothing to do with Christ except for symbology. Calvin, Luther, and Jefferson all had pretty awkward feelings about it belonging in canon. Matthew also discusses Hell as an actual place (I guess), but he does so with less physical description. Descriptions of Hell are typically vague.


 
(Welcome back from AC. You lucky git.)

The Christians who quote Revelations think it's part of it.
And what if people do this for every part of the Bible? Critics find something silly and suddenly the book it's in isn't a _literal _one or doesn't _really _mean anything.
Didn't Matthew say it's under the Earth? I forget. ><


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Blues said:


> I'm sorry, I can't hear your argument over your ego. The daycare is that-a-way. :U


Are you sure you aren't just jamming your fingers in your ears and singing "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING"? :V


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## Tabasco (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Are you sure you aren't just jamming your fingers in your ears and singing "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING"? :V


 
Protip: No one listens to someone who can't discuss civilly.


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## ADF (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Riiiiiight. Which is why so many soup kitchens and homeless shelters in the United States are run and funded largely or entirely by church congregations? And why many of of them are located either in churches or on the same patch of land as one?


 
You mean like the ones in Washington that held their services at ransom if they didn't block a gay rights law that was being passed at the time?

I'm an Atheist with a regular monthly subscription to a charity called Doctors Without Borders, a none religious and none political charity.

So to hell with you.



Ersatz said:


> Fixed that for you. You're also wrong, btw.



Ah good, I'll start packing your invisible gold then.


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## Endless Humiliation (Jun 28, 2010)

girls girls


you're BOTH pretty


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## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> And I can name plenty of _local_ ones that are. How about national? Or international? Hell, let's get some statistics up in this bitch--how many international charities are religious versus being secular, and how much money altogether goes toward feeding and sheltering people in each category?


 
http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Charities#Secular_Charities_and_Aid_groups

A list of Secular Charities, which includes some of the world's biggest, like Oxfam and UNICEF. People don't have to be religious to be good.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Shika said:


> http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Charities#Secular_Charities_and_Aid_groups
> 
> A list of Secular Charities, which includes some of the world's biggest, like Oxfam and UNICEF. People don't have to be religious to be good.


Show me where I said they HAVE to. Go on, I'll wait.
Hint: I didn't, at any point.



ADF said:


> You mean like the ones in Washington that held their services at ransom if they didn't block a gay rights law that was being passed at the time?


Sure, those still count.



> I'm an Atheist with a regular monthly subscription to a charity called Doctors Without Borders, a none religious and none political charity.


That's nice. I'm an absurdist who doesn't give a shit what you donate to.



> Ah good, I'll start packing your invisible gold then.


Go right ahead. I'll pay you once I've made sure it's here.



Mayfurr said:


> The burden of proof is on those who make the claim that there IS a God, an afterlife, etc...


No, it isn't. The burden of proof is and has always been on those who challenge what's already accepted. People have accepted the idea that God exists for countless generations, and they've accepted the idea that religion is generally a Good Thing (albeit one that is all too often misused for evil). Unfortunately for atheists, the general majority of people don't have to prove shit. You're the minority, you're the ones saying everyone else is wrong--_you_ are the ones who have to provide proof.

And since the existence of god cannot truly be tested, you have no more proof than the madman on the streetcorner shouting fire and brimstone. So, tough luck.



> I could claim that an invisible pink unicorn actually created the universe and requires everyone to provide offerings of blueberry muffins at my house on a daily basis, but I doubt you'd take me seriously without _some _proof. Yet as far as _your_ godinvisible pink unicorn is concerned, you expect everyone to accept there is a god just on the say-so of a bunch of 'holy' men and a 'holy' book with a vested self-interest?


MY god? Do you even know what "absurdist" means? I'd be more than happy to explain it to you if you don't.



> So you reckon that only religion enables people to care and do good in the community? Yeah, right.


Oh, not at all. Nice job putting words in my mouth, by the way. I'm just saying, whether you want to admit it or not, there are a lot of churches (and buildings from other religious organizations) that have built soup kitchens and homeless shelters.

And, whether you want to admit it or not, people would be killing each other over stupid shit with or without religion. So yeah, same old crapsack world.

But, of course, you guys _don't_ want to admit that, because that would rather weaken your position, wouldn't it?



> And you have the nerve to call _atheists_ arrogant?


Sure I do. It's the truth, however unpopular--and, if I may use an old saying that I myself am rather fond of, nothing can deter a good man from doing what is honorable.



> I could say the same about people sitting their fat asses in a chair and yelling "There IS a god and you'd better start worshipping him, repent you heathen scum!" at other people on the Internet...


Sure you could. So could I, especially since I'm not one of those.

Protip: I'm a pangolin, not a straw man.


Senzuri Champion said:


> girls girls
> 
> 
> you're BOTH pretty


This is the closest thing to my position. Both sides need to just shut the fuck up.


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## Jelly (Jun 28, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> (Welcome back from AC. You lucky git.)
> 
> The Christians who quote Revelations think it's part of it.
> And what if people do this for every part of the Bible? Critics find something silly and suddenly the book it's in isn't a _literal _one or doesn't _really _mean anything.
> Didn't Matthew say it's under the Earth? I forget. ><



^__^

Yeah, something like a three day and night travel.
The Bible doesn't really mean very much in Christianity.


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## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

The Burden of Proof lies with those who make the claim. It's the definition of the term. If you present the claim that God exists, the burden of proof is on you to prove it. 

And just because it's been the received wisdom during the last few thousand years that God exists, doesn't make it any more valid. That's an appeal to Tradition, and weakens your argument. Just because we've always done it that way, doesn't make it correct.


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## ADF (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Sure, those still count.



So intolerance and punishing the innocent aren't important factors in determining morality then?



Ersatz said:


> That's nice. I'm an absurdist who doesn't give a shit what you donate to.



So you're like the emo of philosophy's then? "oh woe is me, everything is pointless and absurd". 



Ersatz said:


> Go right ahead. I'll pay you once I've made sure it's here.


 
Don't worry, I'll put it in a invisible package, though note it only becomes visible to those who have faith it exists. When it comes to selling it yourself; you should note that others may not be able to see it. Be sure to tell them they cannot prove it doesn't exist; which means it does.

Regardless I think you're just being a git for the sake of it, so I'll have a go at stepping back from this one and let someone else put up with you.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Shika said:


> The Burden of Proof lies with those who make the claim. It's the definition of the term. If you present the claim that God exists, the burden of proof is on you to prove it.


No, the claim being made is that God does NOT exist. The idea that God DOES exist is a _prevailing belief_, not a claim. When a new scientific theory comes up, the scientist who postulated it is expected to provide the proof, is he not? That's how the scientific method works--the new argument has to be proven, and not just with conjecture and rhetorical tricks.

Now, if you've really got some proof, use it, because I maintain that there's no way of knowing whether God does or does not exist.



> And just because it's been the received wisdom during the last few thousand years that God exists, doesn't make it any more valid. That's an appeal to Tradition, and weakens your argument. Just because we've always done it that way, doesn't make it correct.


Whoever said it was correct? I said it was _the way things are._ Fallacies aside, do you expect people, who have believed something all their lives, and whose parents, grandparents, etc. believed something all _their_ lives, to suddenly just turn around and say "Wow, God really doesn't exist, and I'm a horrible person for believing in Him!"?

If so, you're as deluded as anyone else. People _aren't_ logical. That's why fallacies exist to begin with--and expecting illogical beings to be 100% logical is...well, it's not a very rational thing to do, is it?



ADF said:


> So intolerance and punishing the innocent aren't important factors in determining morality then?


Oh, look, a red herring. What they did has nothing to do with what I said. It is, I think, safe to assume that they do not deny services 24/7, on the basis that they would've been shut down a long time ago if they do.



> So you're like the emo of philosophy's then? "oh woe is me, everything is pointless and absurd". [


That's nihilism, but it's nice to see you really don't have any idea what you're even talking about.

Absurdism states that there is no way of knowing whether or not God, meaning, or purpose exist, let alone what their natures are, and that it is therefore _absurd_ to claim to have those answers.

In short, things that cannot be _tested_ cannot be _known_. Get it?



> Don't worry, I'll put it in a invisible package, though note it only becomes visible to those who have faith it exists. When it comes to selling it yourself; you should note that others may not be able to see it. Be sure to tell them they cannot prove it doesn't exist; which means it does.
> 
> Regardless I think you're just being a git for the sake of it, so I'll have a go at stepping back from this one and let someone else put up with you.


WOW, dude. Wow. Where did I say outright that God exists? Show me. Come on--show me where I said, uniquivocally, that God exists. I'll wait.

In the meantime, I'm going to get a little metaphorical on you now, so try to keep your mind open.

Let's say we have a black wooden box that's sealed shut. There is no way to open this box, there is no way to see what's inside without opening it, and smashing it open will completely destroy the contents. But we know there is a bell in this box, because it can be heard ringing whenever the box is shaken. Are you with me so far? Nobody still alive was there when the bell was sealed in this box, either, and while there are countless texts that all claim to have been written by someone who saw the bell being sealed inside, they all contradict each other. The only thing they have in common is that all the scrolls state that there's a tiny ribbon that holds the bell up.

One man might argue that the ribbon is yellow. Another might argue that the ribbon is blue. A third might argue that there's no ribbon at all--it's just an ordinary string. And so forth.

So, tell me--who's right?


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 28, 2010)

Jelly said:


> The Bible doesn't really mean very much in Christianity.


 
I can tell. D:


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> I can tell. D:


 
The hardcover versions make pretty good weapons, though, assuming you can find 'em with medium print and decent-weight paper for the pages.


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## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> No, the claim being made is that God does NOT exist. The idea that God DOES exist is a _prevailing belief_, not a claim. When a new scientific theory comes up, the scientist who postulated it is expected to provide the proof, is he not? That's how the scientific method works--the new argument has to be proven, and not just with conjecture and rhetorical tricks.
> 
> Now, if you've really got some proof, use it, because I maintain that there's no way of knowing whether God does or does not exist.
> 
> ...



I realise that people aren't going to give up their cherished beliefs just because I want them to, I'm not that conceited. I have plenty of religious friends, we just let each other belief what we like. But if someone wants to debate on the existence of God, I'd like it if we could stay within the confines of Logic. Otherwise, nothing can be established, and that whole thing becomes pointless.

Atheism as a philosophical idea is the counter to the idea of Theism, so Theism must have come first. You can't be against something that no one's said. Someone must have presented the idea of one or more Gods, before someone identified as a person who didn't believe in them. Therefore, as Theism was presented first, it's claimants hold the burden of proof. 

I agree with you that you can't prove one way or the other that God does or doesn't exist, and that anyone claiming so is arrogant, but I live my life as if he doesn't. If someone comes to me with compelling evidence for a God or Gods, I'll be happy to adjust my ideas.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Shika said:


> I realise that people aren't going to give up their cherished beliefs just because I want them to, I'm not that conceited. I have plenty of religious friends, we just let each other belief what we like. But if someone wants to debate on the existence of God, I'd like it if we could stay within the confines of Logic. Otherwise, nothing can be established, and that whole thing becomes pointless.


That's the point. Nothing can be tested and nothing can be proven, so nothing CAN be established.



> Atheism as a philosophical idea is the counter to the idea of Theism, so Theism must have come first. You can't be against something that no one's said. Someone must have presented the idea of one or more Gods, before someone identified as a person who didn't believe in them. Therefore, as Theism was presented first, it's claimants hold the burden of proof.


No. You have it backwards. Inside or outside "Logic", the newer claim is always the challenger. If it's meant to _replace_ the old way of thinking, it has to actually show that it's a _better_ way of thinking than the current one. Agree or disagree?



> I agree with you that you can't prove one way or the other that God does or doesn't exist, and that anyone claiming so is arrogant, but I live my life as if he doesn't. If someone comes to me with compelling evidence for a God or Gods, I'll be happy to adjust my ideas.


See, that's how it's done. 100% agree with you on that last sentence, in particular.

I personally try to live my life in such a way that God's existence is wholly irrelevant to my daily routine, or at least as much so as possible. Which, among other things, means I don't start yelling there is or isn't a god. If anything, I yell "shut up, I don't care" if someone tries to argue about it with me IRL.


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> The hardcover versions make pretty good weapons, though, assuming you can find 'em with medium print and decent-weight paper for the pages.


 
They fly pretty far when dropkicked, too.


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## Willow (Jun 28, 2010)

So, where is the ignorant part of this debate at?


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> They fly pretty far when dropkicked, too.


 
Yes! 



WillowWulf said:


> So, where is the ignorant part of this debate at?


 
I think you just missed it.


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## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> I personally try to live my life in such a way that God's existence is wholly irrelevant to my daily routine, or at least as much so as possible. Which, among other things, means I don't start yelling there is or isn't a god. If anything, I yell "shut up, I don't care" if someone tries to argue about it with me IRL.



Amen to that. I cringe when my other Atheist friends get all worked up about the Theists in our group. Calm the fuck down, it really doesn't matter that much.

In regards to the Newer claim thing, I would argue that Humanism (which is usually tagged along with atheism, at least these days.) is a better way of thinking that most of the major religions, which were founded 2000 years ago and whose tenants and moral don't all apply today. Working together to make life better for each other, with no reference to higher powers, seems easier. But that's just me.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Shika said:


> Amen to that. I cringe when my other Atheist friends get all worked up about the Theists in our group. Calm the fuck down, it really doesn't matter that much.


Yeah, really. It's like debating over the color of a ribbon, like I said before.



> In regards to the Newer claim thing, I would argue that Humanism (which is usually tagged along with atheism, at least these days.) is a better way of thinking that most of the major religions, which were founded 2000 years ago and whose tenants and moral don't all apply today. Working together to make life better for each other, with no reference to higher powers, seems easier. But that's just me.


It's a nice idea, but it sounds like it would fall apart for the same reason Communism did.


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## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> It's a nice idea, but it sounds like it would fall apart for the same reason Communism did.



Well I can dream... ;_;


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Shika said:


> Well I can dream... ;_;


Last time I dreamed, it got eaten by a Drowzee. :c


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## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Last time I dreamed, it got eaten by a Drowzee. :c


 
Use Ghost types, SUPER EFFECTIVE!


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## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Oh shit, nobody told me the party was starting again.



Ersatz said:


> I'm gonna get on a soapbox here really quick.
> 
> You know what I really hate about atheists? You guys don't have any more proof of your beliefs than the religious types. It's pretentious and self-serving (among other things) to claim you _know_ whether there is or is not any sort of supernatural being, whether or not there's an afterlife, etc. etc., when you don't have any proof.



*sigh* This again.  You're the arrogant one here, soapboxing like you're the smartest one here when it's clear you haven't done your homework.  It's never been a matter of proving there is no God.  There is nothing in our understanding of the universe that requires the existence of anything so complex as a God to explain it.  Thus there is no reason to believe it any more than any of the other infinite potential explanations you can literally just _make up_.  They all share a spot at the edge of improbability.  This was even being discussed on the same page where you posted this, so you have no excuse.



Ersatz said:


> Oh, no. My friend, you are indeed arrogant. You're _arrogant_ for thinking you're actually doing a damn thing to stop the decline of civilization just by sitting your fat ass in a chair and yelling "There is no god!" at people on the Internet.



Never said I was doing all that much.  Standing up to irrationality is something on the order of doing your recycling.  I'm doing my part, but I have no illusion about my individual contribution amounting to much of anything.



Ersatz said:


> No, it isn't. The burden of proof is and has always been on those who challenge what's already accepted. People have accepted the idea that God exists for countless generations, and they've accepted the idea that religion is generally a Good Thing (albeit one that is all too often misused for evil). Unfortunately for atheists, the general majority of people don't have to prove shit. You're the minority, you're the ones saying everyone else is wrong--_you_ are the ones who have to provide proof.


 
You're either arguing in bad faith or RAEGing too hard to think clearly.  Surely you're not suggesting that having a preconceived answer actually makes it more likely to be true?  Could I walk into a casino and make a killing at the tables by _believing really hard_ that the card on top of the deck is the one I need before it's drawn?

Burden of proof is always on the positive assertion.  That's how it works.  And the religious are making a positive assertion that God exists, while atheists make a negative assertion by challenging it.  As long as there's no evidence _for_ God's existence, it can be dismissed from consideration without having to find positive proof for nonexistence.



Ersatz said:


> Shika said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with you that you can't prove one way or the other that God does or doesn't exist, and that anyone claiming so is arrogant, but I live my life as if he doesn't. If someone comes to me with compelling evidence for a God or Gods, I'll be happy to adjust my ideas.
> ...


 
*This is exactly what atheists say aaaaaaaaaaaaaa*


----------



## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Lobar said:


> *This is exactly what atheists say aaaaaaaaaaaaaa*



The notion of God, as it's usually put forward is unfalsifiable, can't be tested by science. These kind of ideas can usually be cast aside, but if someone wants to take the position it's hard to disprove empirically. Use of Occam's razor and reference to the Burden of proof is usually needed.


----------



## Wreth (Jun 28, 2010)

Occahms Razor.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Shika said:


> The notion of God, as it's usually put forward is unfalsifiable, can't be tested by science. These kind of ideas can usually be cast aside, but if someone wants to take the position it's hard to disprove empirically. Use of Occam's razor and reference to the Burden of proof is usually needed.


 
Yes, exactly.


----------



## Shika (Jun 28, 2010)

Zoopedia said:


> Occahms Razor.


 

What about it?


----------



## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Lobar, do you have anything worthwhile to say, or are you going to just keep rimming yourself over this?

People don't change their beliefs just because you tell them to. You have to _prove_ their existing beliefs wrong first. And there's still a big difference between saying "there is no god" and saying "You don't know and I don't care".

But, whatever. Keep pretending you're somehow better than everyone else just because you're an atheist. I'm sure it'll do wonders for distracting everyone from your near-morbid obesity and your utter lack of anything resembling charisma.


----------



## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Lobar, do you have anything worthwhile to say, or are you going to just keep rimming yourself over this?
> 
> People don't change their beliefs just because you tell them to. You have to _prove_ their existing beliefs wrong first. And there's still a big difference between saying "there is no god" and saying "You don't know and I don't care".
> 
> But, whatever. Keep pretending you're somehow better than everyone else just because you're an atheist. I'm sure it'll do wonders for distracting everyone from your near-morbid obesity and your utter lack of anything resembling charisma.


 
don't front nigga


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Lobar said:


> don't front nigga


 
Hm. Is that an infraction, or would I have to actually be black for it to count?


----------



## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Hm. Is that an infraction, or would I have to actually be black for it to count?


 
maybe if you whine hard enough


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## fuzthefurfox (Jun 28, 2010)

i believe in science....


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## Aleu (Jun 28, 2010)

You can't prove a negative.
Theists are claiming there IS a god of some sort. Atheists are basically the ones saying "prove it!

See the difference between scientists and religious nuts is that scientists actually have facts and done studies. Any idgit can come up with an idea of god and declare it true. They, of course, have to prove it true, not have people try to prove that they're full of shit because someone said that they didn't believe them.


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## Willow (Jun 28, 2010)

There's some truth in the Bible, location wise imo 

But science can also explain some of the events in the Bible


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> You can't prove a negative.
> 
> Theists are claiming there IS a god of some sort. Atheists are basically the ones saying "prove it!



Uh-uh. Atheists and theists are like schoolchildren arguing over something as petty as what color a pomegranate tastes like, despite neither having ever tasted one. Neither one has any proof, nor any other empirical way of backing up his claims. All they are--and, unless we have some major cosmological breakthrough, all they'll ever be--is a couple of hard-headed little kids arguing.



> See the difference between scientists and religious nuts is that scientists actually have facts and done studies.



And yet they still haven't managed to conclusively prove there is no god. Do you know why? Scientists _don't care_ whether there is or is not a God. Scientists _are not out_ to prove the religious nuts wrong. It's _not their job_ to settle pissy little ideological disputes like this. Do you understand the difference between science and atheism? One's an intellectual pursuit, and the other's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Please allow me to reiterate my position in blunt, concise terms:

*In this argument, nobody is right, and everybody is wrong.
There's no sense in arguing over something that can't be tested.
Atheists? Shut the fuck up.
Theists? Shut the fuck up.*


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## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Uh-uh. Atheists and theists are like schoolchildren arguing over something as petty as what color a pomegranate tastes like, despite neither having ever tasted one. Neither one has any proof, nor any other empirical way of backing up his claims. All they are--and, unless we have some major cosmological breakthrough, all they'll ever be--is a couple of hard-headed little kids arguing.



Think of _anything_ that doesn't exist.  Anything at all, barring self-contradictory things like round squares.

Then show me _proof_ it doesn't exist.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Think of _anything_ that doesn't exist.  Anything at all, barring self-contradictory things like round circles.





> *self-contradictory things like round circles*.





> *self-contradictory things like round circles*.





> *self-contradictory round circles*.


*Clap. Clap. Clap.*



> Then show me _proof_ it doesn't exist.


An ape the size of King Kong does not exist. This is because the mass of a primate's body increases corresponding to a _cubic_ function as height increases, while the increase in skeletal strength only corresponds to to a _square_ function. It would collapse under its own weight and die in pain, unable to move or even breathe, with every bone in its body broken.
Because it is impossible for any such creature to exist in nature, it does not exist.
Q.E.D.

(That being said, since all gods are generally considered to exist beyond the bounds of nature, this can't be said to apply to whether they exist or not.)


----------



## Aleu (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Uh-uh. Atheists and theists are like schoolchildren arguing over something as petty as what color a pomegranate tastes like, despite neither having ever tasted one. Neither one has any proof, nor any other empirical way of backing up his claims. All they are--and, unless we have some major cosmological breakthrough, all they'll ever be--is a couple of hard-headed little kids arguing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...what color a pomegranate tastes like? ...the fuck?
and you kinda said the same thing I was saying. One is making claims, the other is denying them.

Also, mind proving your last paragraph about the scientists? I'm pretty sure there are theistic scientists that would LOVE to prove there is a god like this guy for example.


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## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> An ape the size of King Kong does not exist. This is because the mass of a primate's body increases corresponding to a _cubic_ function as height increases, while the increase in skeletal strength only corresponds to to a _square_ function. It would collapse under its own weight and die in pain, unable to move or even breathe, with every bone in its body broken.
> Q.E.D.


 
That's not _proof_.  Perhaps his skeleton could be better reinforced than his normal-sized peers, and be comparatively leaner.  Or hell, he could even be a _magic_ ape.

Thought experiments just really aren't the same as cold, hard evidence when dealing with King Kong.  Until one side has some kind of said evidence, both are retarded, right?


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> ...what color a pomegranate tastes like? ...the fuck?


I didn't feel like reusing my "ribbon in a sealed box" analogy. But you can't prove what color something tastes like, either--for a number of reasons. Besides, kids love arguing over stupid things like that.



> and you kinda said the same thing I was saying. One is making claims, the other is denying them.


And neither one can actually back up what he's saying.



> Also, mind proving your last paragraph about the scientists? I'm pretty sure there are theistic scientists that would LOVE to prove there is a god like this guy for example.


 
There are exceptions to lots of rules. Scientists are people and people often believe in God; therefore, theistic scientists do not in any way disprove my claim that it is not science's job to affirm or deny the existence of God, and most scientists still do their jobs without regard to the existence of God.



Lobar said:


> That's not _proof_.


Actually, yeah it is. These variables can be tested, and it can be determined how weight and skeletal strength vary according to height. It has been done. Maybe you should have paid more attention in physics, mathematics, and/or biology class. Or maybe you should've gone to school for, you know, _science,_ since you claim to be such a fan of it.


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## Aleu (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> I didn't feel like reusing my "ribbon in a sealed box" analogy. But you can't prove what color something tastes like, either--for a number of reasons. Besides, kids love arguing over stupid things like that.
> 
> 
> And neither one can actually back up what he's saying.
> ...


 
since when the fuck do colors have tastes? other than orange

and I wasn't saying it's a scientist's job to prove/disprove god or whatever. You just said "scientists don't care" so I disproved that.


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## Willow (Jun 28, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> since when the fuck do colors have tastes? other than orange


 Macaroni and Cheese is a color


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## Aleu (Jun 28, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> Macaroni and Cheese is a color


 wtf? That's orange! Mac and cheese is yellow! Not orange!


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## Willow (Jun 28, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> wtf? That's orange! Mac and cheese is yellow! Not orange!


 Depends on the cheese you use


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## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Actually, yeah it is. These variables can be tested, and it can be determined how weight and skeletal strength vary according to height. It has been done. Maybe you should have paid more attention in physics, mathematics, and/or biology class. Or maybe you should've gone to school for, you know, _science,_ since you claim to be such a fan of it.


 
A giant ape may have been cultivated in a lab where it lives on extensive life support at all times.  Or, as I already suggested, it could just be a _magic_ ape.  You don't have _conclusive proof_ that this is not so, nor could you ever.

I could do this all day.


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> since when the fuck do colors have tastes? other than orange


*They don't. That's the point.* (Anyway, oranges were named for the color, not vice-versa )




> and I wasn't saying it's a scientist's job to prove/disprove god or whatever. You just said "scientists don't care" so I disproved that.


All right, let me reword that:
Most scientists are not interested in the atheism versus theism dispute, except where it interferes with their jobs.
It is still not the job of science to settle that dispute. How's that? That do anything for ya?


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## Ersatz (Jun 28, 2010)

Lobar said:


> A giant ape may have been cultivated in a lab where it lives on extensive life support at all times.  Or, as I already suggested, it could just be a _magic_ ape.  You don't have _conclusive proof_ that this is not so, nor could you ever.


Here. Educate yourself.

What cannot exist in nature, does not exist in nature.

By the way, since you obviously missed this before: _All circles are round._



> I could do this all day.


I'm sure you could. Nothing's easier than posting stupid crap and ignoring actual science just to defend an unscientific and illogical claim, and it doesn't even cause the nasty mental fatigue that intelligent thought does. That's why Fundies do it all the time.


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## Lobar (Jun 28, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Here. Educate yourself/
> 
> What cannot exist in nature, does not exist in nature.



"In a lab" is not exactly "in nature".  And you still won't address the possibility that the ape is simply magical.  As long as there are other possibilities, it hasn't been _proven_.

If you haven't figured out where this is going by now, this is a demonstration on why the burden of proof is always, _always_ on the positive assertion.



Ersatz said:


> By the way, since you obviously missed this before: _All circles are round._



It was a typo and I've already edited my post.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jul 1, 2010)

Lobar said:


> And you still won't address the possibility that the ape is simply magical.


 
Or more likely, dead.


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## Ikrit (Jul 1, 2010)

if he is real god is an asshole


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## Telnac (Jul 1, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> In other words, returning to the state of non-existence that existed for someone before they were born. ("I didn't exist for thousands of years before I was born..." - I forget who said that.)
> 
> Compared to the fundie version of everlasting fire and brimstone, eternal oblivion actually doesn't seem so bad - which is why the fundies push the fire and brimstone (with extra torture) every chance they get.


 Alas, true.  I despise "fire & brimstone" Christianity as much as I despise "feel good" Christianity because I believe neither are actually taught in the Bible, but are instead taught for selfish reasons by those pushing them.  

"Fire & brimstone" Christians tend to arrogant a-holes who look down their nose any anyone remotely different than them.  There's a reason Jesus saved His harshest rebuke for people of His day who taught crap like that.  (Matthew 23, if you don't believe me.  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 23)

"Feel good" Christianity is no better, though.  It's a relatively new concept that greatly downplays the very concept of sin & hell just to pack the pews.  Yes, God loves us so much that Jesus died so that we could have forgiveness for our sins.  But that doesn't mean we get to do whatever we want, so long as we attend church once in a while for fire instance!  Some "feel good" churches even go so far as teaching that Hell doesn't exist!  I find it as implausible that God would force people to go to Heaven as I do the idea that God would throw ordinary people into a lake of burning sulfur to burn for all eternity.  The Devil & his fallen angels?  Yes.  Ordinary sinners?  No.  Tho I suspect He might be willing to make an exception for Adolph Hitler.   ; )



Harebelle said:


> [FONT=trebuchet  ms,arial,helvetica]*Revelation  20:13-15:* "_...hell delivered up  the dead which were in           them...And death and hell were cast  into the lake of fire.  *This is the second           death*. And  whosoever was not found written in the book of life  was cast into the  lake of fire._"[/FONT]
> 
> The Bible disagrees.
> 
> ...


I love it when ppl quote the very passage that supports my argument in an attempt to disagree with me on this subject.  Matthew 10:28 makes it clear what happens to ordinary folks when they end up in the lake of fire:
_"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.  Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell._"

Hell (ultimately, the lake of fire) is a literal second death.  Not burning for all time, at least... not for mortals.  Our resurrected bodies & souls are simply... burnt toast.


Lastly, regarding burden of proof: burden of proof applies to someone who makes a claim.  If I claim God exists (something I obviously believe) it's up to me to prove to a skeptic that God exists.  If someone claims that God doesn't exist, it's up to them to prove to a skeptic (such as myself) that God doesn't exist.  I cannot prove to a skeptic God exists and more than someone making the claim that God exists can prove to me that God doesn't exist.  The problem with the burden of proof argument is that no one needs to prove anything to anyone for God to actually exist.  God can exist whether or not anyone believes in Him at all, in fact.  The very notion of demanding proof of something that's inherently non-falsifiable is downright silly.

I can tell you I believe in God and I can tell you why.  If you choose to believe yourself, great!  If you don't, so be it.  It's not my responsibility to prove anything, because the truth doesn't change based on whether or not anyone else agrees with me.


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## Ersatz (Jul 1, 2010)

Lobar said:
			
		

> words


Okay, you're right. My mistake. Sheesh...



Hakar Kerarmor said:


> Or more likely, dead.


This. But it would most likely die before getting that big.



Ikrit said:


> if he is real god is an asshole


Or, at the very least, an apathetic, negligent dick.


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## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Okay, you're right. My mistake. Sheesh...


 
Well, it's good to see that you can admit to a mistake.  Can you also see, then, that by not making a positive assertion oneself, one can logically disbelieve any gods without positive proof of their nonexistence?



Telnac said:


> The very notion of demanding proof of something that's inherently non-falsifiable is downright silly.


 
This doesn't follow, sorry.  Unfalsifiable != unverifiable.  As was just demonstrated in this thread, any assertion of anything's existence is unfalsifiable, but existence is easily verifiable.

If you had asserted that living coelacanths still existed prior to their discovery, you would have had no logical basis to do so, but your assertion would have been unfalsifiable.  Such an assertion would have obviously not been unverifiable though, since it would have been verified once it was discovered.

In fact, I would say the exact opposite of your statement is true, that demanding proof for that which is unfalsifiable is *absolutely necessary*.


----------



## Ersatz (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Well, it's good to see that you can admit to a mistake.  Can you also see, then, that by not making a positive assertion oneself, one can logically disbelieve any gods without positive proof of their nonexistence?


Being a smug asshole because you won doesn't do very much to disprove my earlier point that atheists are arrogant twats. You know that, right? :V


----------



## Telnac (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> This doesn't follow, sorry.  Unfalsifiable != unverifiable.  As was just demonstrated in this thread, any assertion of anything's existence is unfalsifiable, but existence is easily verifiable.
> 
> If you had asserted that living coelacanths still existed prior to their discovery, you would have had no logical basis to do so, but your assertion would have been unfalsifiable.  Such an assertion would have obviously not been unverifiable though, since it would have been verified once it was discovered.
> 
> In fact, I would say the exact opposite of your statement is true, that demanding proof for that which is unfalsifiable is *absolutely necessary*.


There's a big difference between my belief in God and someone's belief in a pink unicorn or a 10 story ape.  The latter two can be photographed.  They can be captured and displayed (tho in the case of the 10 story ape, that might not be a good idea if Hollywood is any guide.)  For such things, asking for proof is quite reasonable.  However, the existence of something that cannot be measured or observed in any empirical way _*is*_ unverifiable, and as such cannot be proven.  Asking for proof of something that cannot be proven makes no sense whatsoever.

  But the fact that the existence of God can't be proven doesn't mean He cannot exist.  I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence in my own life to convince me, but I know the account of my experiences is hardly the same thing as proof.  Whether or not you believe is entirely up to you.  It's not my job as a believer to make you believe too.  So you may demand proof all you like.  I'm under no obligation to provide you with any.


----------



## OssumPawesome (Jul 2, 2010)

Telnac said:


> There's a big difference between my belief in God and someone's belief in a pink unicorn or a 10 story ape.  The latter two can be photographed.  They can be captured and displayed (tho in the case of the 10 story ape, that might not be a good idea if Hollywood is any guide.)  For such things, asking for proof is quite reasonable.  However, the existence of something that cannot be measured or observed in any empirical way _*is*_ unverifiable, and as such cannot be proven.  Asking for proof of something that cannot be proven makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> But the fact that the existence of God can't be proven doesn't mean He cannot exist.  I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence in my own life to convince me, but I know the account of my experiences is hardly the same thing as proof.  Whether or not you believe is entirely up to you.  _*It's not my job as a believer to make you believe too.*_  So you may demand proof all you like.  I'm under no obligation to provide you with any.


 
Every major religion ever would like to have a word with you.


----------



## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

Telnac said:


> There's a big difference between my belief in God and someone's belief in a pink unicorn or a 10 story ape.  The latter two can be photographed.  They can be captured and displayed (tho in the case of the 10 story ape, that might not be a good idea if Hollywood is any guide.)  For such things, asking for proof is quite reasonable.  However, the existence of something that cannot be measured or observed in any empirical way _*is*_ unverifiable, and as such cannot be proven.  Asking for proof of something that cannot be proven makes no sense whatsoever.



All claims are verified the same way - by presenting a body of evidence compelling enough that all other explanations for the evidence, including the explanation that the evidence is mistaken, are eliminated as being even more complex.  Since God is a far more extraordinary claim than unicorns or giant apes, it's only proper that the evidence necessary would have to be just as extraordinary, but nevertheless, if God exists, it is entirely conceivable that the evidence exists as well.  Thus, it's not an unverifiable claim so much as you just don't have what it takes to verify it.  That's a failing on religion's part, not the standards of logic.



Telnac said:


> But the fact that the existence of God can't be proven doesn't mean He cannot exist.  I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence in my own life to convince me, but I know the account of my experiences is hardly the same thing as proof.  Whether or not you believe is entirely up to you.  It's not my job as a believer to make you believe too.  So you may demand proof all you like.  I'm under no obligation to provide you with any.


 
You're not obligated to present your case for your beliefs, but it does then beg the question what your goal in this conversation is.  It also opens you up to criticism for recognizing the standard of proof and disregarding it when convincing _yourself_



Ersatz said:


> Being a smug asshole because you won doesn't do very much to disprove my earlier point that atheists are arrogant twats. You know that, right? :V


 
I'm not gloating.  It is genuinely a good thing that you are recognizing and correcting an error on your part, even if ungracefully.  Many would stand their ground no matter how clearly a lost cause it was.  I just wanted to make sure that you also recognized the conclusions of your new understanding.


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## cataloof (Jul 2, 2010)

iii like what the squirel said


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 2, 2010)

So what has this digressed into?


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## Ersatz (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> I'm not gloating.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


----------



## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


 
You know, you've got more of a chip on your shoulder than any atheist I've ever met.  Did someone shoot your dog in a fit of extreme moral relativism or something?


----------



## Ersatz (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> You know, you've got more of a chip on your shoulder than any atheist I've ever met. Did someone shoot your dog in a fit of extreme moral relativism or something?


No, an atheist stole my bike. :V


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## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> No, an atheist stole my bike. :V


 
Was it Randy Darkshade? :V


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## Redregon (Jul 2, 2010)

I can't prove that god exists but neither can anyone prove that s/he doesn't exist without this turning into a clusterfuck of clashing ideologies. 

that's kinda why it's called a "belief."

... though, i will agree that the majority of organized religious groups have done a lot of harm... though, some have done a lot of good and/or brought good things to the world (the renaissance comes to mind... also modern morality and laws have their roots in religious beliefs) so i guess it's a double-edged sword.


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## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

Redregon said:


> I can't prove that god exists but neither can anyone prove that s/he doesn't exist without this turning into a clusterfuck of clashing ideologies.



you might wanna read back a couple pages


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jul 2, 2010)

Telnac said:


> But the fact that the existence of God can't be proven doesn't mean He cannot exist.  I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence in my own life to convince me, but I know the account of my experiences is hardly the same thing as proof.  Whether or not you believe is entirely up to you.  It's not my job as a believer to make you believe too.  So you may demand proof all you like.  I'm under no obligation to provide you with any.


 
The problem is that there's a whole bunch of people out there who insist that God(Whatever version they adhere to) is real, and that we should all follow 'His' (ie. their) rules. And that's the point where I require proof.


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## Ersatz (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Was it Randy Darkshade? :V


Probably not. Dude was black.


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## Redregon (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> you might wanna read back a couple pages


 
fair enough. i think the issue at hand seems to be trying to classify and quantify something that is (as i've come to understand) ephemeral and unquantifiable. granted, maybe this is just a discussion on semantics but to me, god (for lack of a better term) is a force that's greater than i am that i aspire to understand. it doesn't make me want to be a better person or do good or even do bad things, it just is. the way i see it, trying to describe god (again, for lack of a better term) is like trying to describe the colour red to a blind person without using abstract terms. you could try, but you'd be spinning your wheels. now, am i saying that i "know" god? certainly not. all i know is what i've read, learned and felt which is entirely subjective.

though i will agree, there is no hard evidence to prove god's existance (especially in the judeo christian islamic vein) but then it could be said that you'd be trying to prove a character in a book is real. fiction is fiction and all that... though, that's not to say that the fiction you're reading doesn't have any good ideas or thoughts to mull over. hell, Grimm's fairy tales sometimes have a moral undercurrent to them... doesn't mean that jack and the beanstalk actually happened though. 

i've been told that i've got a more humanistic view when it comes to faith... so, maybe that kinda disqualifies me from being an authority on it. but still... i do believe that there is much more to this existance than what we can sense with our five sense organs (or sixth if you count balance.)


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## Glitch (Jul 2, 2010)

Sooo late into this, but OP is obviously a fucktard.
Even I'm an atheist, but I don't cram it down other people's posts.

I don't get up in someone's face unless they decide to get in my mine about LOVING YOUR LORD.  Oh..... wait...  That reminds me...  
A lot of you Christian fuckers are REALLY good at flinging your shit at someone else who doesn't even want it.  And about half of you do everything you can to take away the rights of anyone that looks or does anything different.

If I had to get in people's faces the amount of times I've have Bible-thumpers in it, then that's all I'd be able to do in life.

Do note that I think *faith* is great, because it doesn't make you ruin everyone else.  Religion needs to fucking die.  They do NOT go hand-in-hand; they're separate entities.  *insert _Dogma_*


----------



## Willow (Jul 2, 2010)

Glitch said:


> Sooo late into this, but OP is obviously a fucktard.


 I deduced this when I saw who the OP was


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## Tewin Follow (Jul 2, 2010)

This is the first ANRGY POST! of yours that I like, Glitch.


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## Glitch (Jul 2, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> I deduced this when I saw who the OP was


 
Didn't you hear?  I took up the job as Captain Obvious.  
The pay is lousy, but it's a really, really easy job.



Harebelle said:


> This is the first ANRGY POST! of yours that I like, Glitch.



Good.
My evil plan is working.


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## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't think anyone claimed the OP to be particularly bright.


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## Glitch (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> I don't think anyone claimed the OP to be particularly bright.


 
Well, I've seen a couple of his threads and my IQ dropped, so I think this is unanimous.


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## Jelly (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> I don't think anyone claimed the OP to be particularly bright.


 
why do these kinds of threads get so many posts
is it because its just that easy

or


----------



## Telnac (Jul 2, 2010)

Lobar said:


> You're not obligated to present your case for your beliefs, but it does then beg the question what your goal in this conversation is.  It also opens you up to criticism for recognizing the standard of proof and disregarding it when convincing _yourself_


Acknowledging that I can't command God to reveal Himself to you is quite different from having not witnessed any evidence of the existence of the supernatural realm myself.  Quite the contrary, I've witnessed more than enough evidence to thoroughly convince me.  I have what I witnessed in my early life documented (http://www.illogica.org/azpod/testimony.html) and I've witnessed plenty of evidence in my own life in the 15 years since then.  But, as I said, my personal experiences are anecdotal evidence, which may be more than enough for me to believe but not enough for a skeptic... since for all they know I may be lying through my teeth.

The goal in the conversation is simply to learn.  I love discussing other faiths because I love learning about other faiths.  I love debating my own faith, because doing so tests the foundation of that faith.  I learn new arguments against my faith and in doing so, I have to be quick of mind enough to have arguments to defend by beliefs or concede the debate.  Unlike many who see debating religion as a pointless waste of time, I believe the debate itself is valuable, even if there is no hope of either side convincing the other.

_*


			
				Me said:
			
		


			It's not my job as a believer to make you believe too.
		
Click to expand...

*_


Exunod said:


> Every  major religion ever would like to have a word with you.


Alas,  yes, there are plenty of people who see evangelism as forcing the Bible  (or whatever other holy text they may believe) down everyone's throat.  I  would disagree with them.  I believe my duty as a believer is to simply  acknowledge my belief, defend my beliefs when challenged and to help  seekers learn why I believe what I do.  If they choose to believe  themselves, fantastic!  Then it's my duty to help them grow in their  beliefs.





Glitch said:


> Do note that I think *faith* is great,  because it doesn't make you ruin everyone else.  Religion needs to  fucking die.  They do NOT go hand-in-hand; they're separate entities.   *insert _Dogma_*


Now that is a statement I could not agree with more.


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## Lobar (Jul 2, 2010)

Glitch said:


> Do note that I think *faith* is great


 
Why?  What is it about organized religion sucking that automatically makes unorganized faith awesome?  It still amounts to belief without evidence.



Telnac said:


> Acknowledging that I can't command God to reveal Himself to you is quite different from having not witnessed any evidence of the existence of the supernatural realm myself.  Quite the contrary, I've witnessed more than enough evidence to thoroughly convince me.  I have what I witnessed in my early life documented (http://www.illogica.org/azpod/testimony.html) and I've witnessed plenty of evidence in my own life in the 15 years since then.  But, as I said, my personal experiences are anecdotal evidence, which may be more than enough for me to believe but not enough for a skeptic... since for all they know I may be lying through my teeth.


 
That's more than I care to read right now but I'll give it a look over later.


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## Telnac (Jul 3, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Why?  What is it about organized religion sucking that automatically makes unorganized faith awesome?  It still amounts to belief without evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than I care to read right now but I'll give it a look over later.


Well, I'll be AFK until Wednesday most likely, so PM me if you choose to respond so that way I don't forget to come back & read your response.


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

Let me tell you this and I will only post this once because I hate these types of threads.

First of all, you do not tell me to get out because I have a belief you don't share. I'm tired of people who are so viciously against people who have beliefs you don't even think are real. Yet this must be so overwhelming that I guess the only thing you can do is to attack them until they admit they are wrong and ascend to your level of enlightenment? What has God done for us? He gave us life kat. You think God is here to serve us and answer our every prayer? No, God does not wave his magic wand and change things for anyone. He does and will not grant your prayers nor will he save anyone who are in situations where life is on the line. People think God had a hand in their survival or fortune but he didn't. God gave us life, gave us our rules, boundaries and gave us his message and the rest is up to us.

I'm not here to blame God for my or others misfortunes, we are in a world where we are meant to die and we need unpleasant things. When free will exists, we have the choice to cause harm to other people, regardless of what happens on earth matters only to the extent that you do Gods work and accept him as your savior or you simply do not. How can you be so hostile to a God and his reasoning's when you don't even think he exists? Either way, he doesn't effect you and you aren't hounded by the religious to convert or burn in hell. There is no reason to have this constant hostility towards God or more specifically the people that believe in him. It doesn't benefit you, it doesn't benefit me, it doesn't benefit anyone. Let people be and only take proper action when others are infringing on your rights or the law. 

God isn't my servant, I serve him.



Glitch said:


> Sooo late into this, but OP is obviously a  fucktard.
> Even I'm an atheist, but I don't cram it down other people's posts.
> 
> I don't get up in someone's face unless they decide to get in my mine  about LOVING YOUR LORD.  Oh..... wait...  That reminds me...
> ...



Don't call me a "Christian Fucker". I'm really sorry if some people  spreading the word of Gods salvation annoys you but the fact is you have  every opportunity to not listen or walk away. You think Christians  aren't hounded on a constant basis by people who feel the compulsive  need to beat us down simply because we believe in a God they spite? We  have to deal with crap like that all the time and its much more  frustrating to have to defend something then to attack something.  Christians aren't hateful people casting people to hell and taking away  rights, that is an argument of someone jaded against Christianity and  the people in it.

Organized Religion is understandable to dislike because its segregation  and its ruled by rituals. The reality is, we all have to deal with other  peoples oppressive garbage, but you got to choose to be the hostile one  or the one committed to treating others with respect, kindness and  understanding. I'm religious, Jesus Christ is my savior and I work for  him. Do you think a Christian like me would be in a predominantly  homosexual fandom and website to attack you? No, I am your friend and  the only ones who aren't are the ones whose spiteful attitudes cast me  out of their life for disagreeing with theirs. I turn nobody away and I  treat anyone who is my friend as my friend regardless of if they are  gay, non christian or whatever else.

You see, I treat you all with respect, why do I get to be called a  "Christian Fucker?"


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

I made a double post, sorry, I'm used to it automatically combining with my last post.


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## Tally (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> Let me tell you this and I will only post this once because I hate these types of threads.



Aka it is useless to reply to me, I will not read it. How Christian. Not listening to anyone.


> First of all, you do not tell me to get out because I have a belief you don't share. I'm tired of people who are so viciously against people who have beliefs you don't even think are real. Yet this must be so overwhelming that I guess the only thing you can do is to attack them until they admit they are wrong and ascend to your level of enlightenment?



Christians NEVER realize that what they believe is bullshit, no matter how good of an argument I present. You won't, so I won't try to convince you. And as for us being vicious, at least we are not forcing you not to believe in God at the tip of a sword.


> What has God done for us? He gave us life kat.



That's odd, I thought that life arose from chemicals reacting together. ("GOD CAUSES THEM TO! AT FIRST WE BELIEVED THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN, BUT ONCE YOU PROVED IT DOES, WE DECIDED IT WAS GOD DOING IT.")



> You think God is here to serve us and answer our every prayer? No, God does not wave his magic wand and change things for anyone. He does and will not grant your prayers nor will he save anyone who are in situations where life is on the line. People think God had a hand in their survival or fortune but he didn't. God gave us life, gave us our rules, boundaries and gave us his message and the rest is up to us.



You resort to this in order to explain why the life a "kind and caring" god gave to you is filled with misery?



> I'm not here to blame God for my or others misfortunes, we are in a world where we are meant to die and we need unpleasant things.



Sorry to break it to you, but we are not meant to do anything. Dying is just another biological process.



> When free will exists, we have the choice to cause harm to other people, regardless of what happens on earth matters only to the extent that you do Gods work and accept him as your savior or you simply do not. How can you be so hostile to a God and his reasoning's when you don't even think he exists?



Because he is shoved in our faces every day by morons who believe they will get to laugh down at us while we yiff in hell.



> Either way, he doesn't effect you and you aren't hounded by the religious to convert or burn in hell. There is no reason to have this constant hostility towards God or more specifically the people that believe in him. It doesn't benefit you, it doesn't benefit me, it doesn't benefit anyone. Let people be and only take proper action when others are infringing on your rights or the law.


 
Since when has Christianity not been telling us to "convert or we will burn in hell"?


Look. If there was a god, and the consequences of being aware of him and not accepting him into your heart is burning in hell, then Christians are the MOST FUCKING SELFISH FUCKS on the entire planet. You choose to give people a chance to suffer for eternity. Every church where God and Jesus are mentioned is a step into making sure people suffer for eternity. Every single Bible is a way to get people to go to hell. If you ask Christians about the fate people who are not aware of your god, the Christians will  say a majority of the time that they will go to heaven because they had no chance to accept god. So by this logic, Christianity causes people to go to hell. If you really cared about humanity, you would keep your mouth shut and never mention your god to anyone.

But no, then your blind faith would not be rewarded. Going to heaven is no fun if everyone is let in.






> There are currently 5 users browsing this thread. (5 members and 0 guests)
> Tally *Fuzzle* N106 Redregon Riesin



Do it. Go against what you said, and post again. I triple dog dare you.


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

Forget it Tally, I'm not going to get into this whole thing with you if your only intent is to attack what I believe in simply because you do not. If you want to discuss this properly I will be here to do so but I'm not going to entertain this rant on my relationship with God. Your view on my faith is incredibly skewed and jaded and that is unfortunate. I don't attack you or others the same way, I'm anyone and everybody's friend who wishes to be. Frankly, you have no intention of understanding my belief system, you have no intention of speaking with me on a human level either. I show you respect and I expect the same in return. I wont waste time replying to all of your jabs and attacks because they will fall on deaf ears. You chose not to be my friend instantly and I choose not to respond to people who are closed off to discussion and friendship. I'd be more than happy to talk about anything you want if you weren't so hell bent on trying to take me down. I'm not here to defend my religion to you.


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## Tally (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> Forget it Tally, I'm not going to get into this whole thing with you if your only intent is to attack what I believe in simply because you do not. If you want to discuss this properly I will be here to do so but I'm not going to entertain this rant on my relationship with God. Your view on my faith is incredibly skewed and jaded and that is unfortunate. I don't attack you or others the same way, I'm anyone and everybody's friend who wishes to be. Frankly, you have no intention of understanding my belief system, you have no intention of speaking with me on a human level either. I show you respect and I expect the same in return. I wont waste time replying to all of your jabs and attacks because they will fall on deaf ears. You chose not to be my friend instantly and I choose not to respond to people who are closed off to discussion and friendship. I'd be more than happy to talk about anything you want if you weren't so hell bent on trying to take me down. I'm not here to defend my religion to you.


 
You obviously didn't read the part where I said I won't bother trying to convince you.

And you seem hell bent on believing that everyone is attacking you personally. It's not you we are attacking, it is the belief you are presenting to us.


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm not presenting anything to you, this thread was created in the interest in attacking my religion and I counter balanced. I didn't smear, attack or try to bring down anyone of you. For an opinion that Christians are so bad, its a wonder nearly all my friends are gay and I get along perfectly with them. You know why? Because its not Christianity that is shoved down your throat and beats you down until you convert, its people who pervert the teachings that preach love, understanding and acceptance to even those most in defiance of it. I don't nor does God cast you to hell, hell is not a place of torture, its an existence without God. This is what I believe and I don't appreciate being slammed and forced to defend everything because someone wants to make an example out of me as a punching bag for something else. 

You know what I present to you Tally? I present the information of my beliefs, that's all. I don't need to stick around and force you into accepting it, I don't need to murder people into accepting it and I don't even have to push you into accepting it all I did is provide the information in a venue that prompted it. If you don't want to believe in it that's fine, but I don't have to accept disrespect over it. Don't paint me with stereotypes created by those who want to deface Christianity, we don't represent people like the Westburo baptist church or obnoxious reverends preaching condemnation over salvation.


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## Tally (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> I'm not presenting anything to you, this thread was created in the interest in attacking my religion and I counter balanced. I didn't smear, attack or try to bring down anyone of you. For an opinion that Christians are so bad, its a wonder nearly all my friends are gay and I get along perfectly with them. You know why? Because its not Christianity that is shoved down your throat and beats you down until you convert, its people who pervert the teachings that preach love, understanding and acceptance to even those most in defiance of it. I don't nor does God cast you to hell, hell is not a place of torture, its an existence without God. This is what I believe and I don't appreciate being slammed and forced to defend everything because someone wants to make an example out of me as a punching bag for something else.
> 
> You know what I present to you Tally? I present the information of my beliefs, that's all. I don't need to stick around and force you into accepting it, I don't need to murder people into accepting it and I don't even have to push you into accepting it all I did is provide the information in a venue that prompted it. If you don't want to believe in it that's fine, but I don't have to accept disrespect over it. Don't paint me with stereotypes created by those who want to deface Christianity, we don't represent people like the Westburo baptist church or obnoxious reverends preaching condemnation over salvation.


 
Why would you present this information if it leads to me going to hell?


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## Enwon (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm an atheist, and over the years, many Christians have attempted to convert me.  They have told me that I will burn eternally in hell for rejecting God.  None of them have offered any valid scientific evidence for God, and none have truly shown was God has done for us (and in case your wondering, telling me "he gave us life" will not work)  I should not have to serve him... he should have to serve us, the people.  If God exists, he has not proven himself to be wise or good- if there is a God, then he is sadistic and narcissistic.  He has humanity be miserable, does not answer prayers from some of his most loyal followers, and then asks _us_ to serve _him_.  I've decided that there is no God, because the alternative is a God with a personality disorder.


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## Tewin Follow (Jul 3, 2010)

N106 said:


> I'm an atheist, and over the years, many Christians have attempted to convert me.  They have told me that I will burn eternally in hell for rejecting God.  None of them have offered any valid scientific evidence for God, and none have truly shown was God has done for us (and in case your wondering, telling me "he gave us life" will not work)  I should not have to serve him... he should have to serve us, the people.  If God exists, he has not proven himself to be wise or good- if there is a God, then he is sadistic and narcissistic.  He has humanity be miserable, does not answer prayers from some of his most loyal followers, and then asks _us_ to serve _him_.  I've decided that there is no God, because the alternative is a God with a personality disorder.



You could always try some of the Hindu gods?


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## Jelly (Jul 3, 2010)

if im a christian is it okay that i dont believe in god as a physical entity
is it also alright if i reject old testament god


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

Tally said:


> Why would you present this information if it leads to me going to hell?


 
Well I'm sorry you don't like that part, but you don't even believe in it. If you did, then you would accept salvation and hell wouldn't be a problem for you. Most of you seem to be under the impression, again, that hell is where you will be tortured for not converting. I don't believe it to be quite so cut and dry. I don't think God is up there saying, ah well he didn't accept me so...*presses button for hell*. I present this information because it seems like people really want to get into it. You are focusing way to much on Christianity as a tool of punishment rather than Christianity as a tool for good. 

Those coming to you and demanding conversion upon penalty of eternal suffering are not the ones you should be getting your information from. If theres ever an organization of a certain subject which houses many members, there will always be those that are the loudest and the most in your face but don't pretend like they make up the whole.


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## Jelly (Jul 3, 2010)

Hell as a place was mostly defined by John on an acidtrip.
Matthew also had some clear inferiority issues stemming from being a capitalist that nobody liked.

im just saying
now thomas
thomas was a real mensch


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## JMAA (Jul 3, 2010)

This reminds me to the ending of Assasin's Creed 2.
God was some sort of alien.


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

JMAA said:


> This reminds me to the ending of Assasin's Creed 2.
> God was some sort of alien.


 
Well theres a bit of a spoiler right there.


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## Aden (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> You are focusing way to much on Christianity as a tool of punishment rather than Christianity as a tool for good.


 
Why does one need Christianity to be good?


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

Aden said:


> Why does one need Christianity to be good?


 
You don't. You can be just as charitable and kind without it. Christianity is an excellent conveyor for it though.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> Let me tell you this and I will only post this once because I hate these types of threads.
> 
> First of all, you do not tell me to get out because I have a belief you don't share. I'm tired of people who are so viciously against people who have beliefs you don't even think are real. Yet this must be so overwhelming that I guess the only thing you can do is to attack them until they admit they are wrong and ascend to your level of enlightenment? What has God done for us? He gave us life kat. You think God is here to serve us and answer our every prayer? No, God does not wave his magic wand and change things for anyone. He does and will not grant your prayers nor will he save anyone who are in situations where life is on the line. People think God had a hand in their survival or fortune but he didn't. God gave us life, gave us our rules, boundaries and gave us his message and the rest is up to us.



I will start leaving religious folk alone when they stop shoving their beliefs where it ain't wanted. It just annoys me when religious folk go out preaching about their religion and telling us what we should and shouldn't be doing. I mean if people go to "hell" (assuming it exists) then that is their fault.



> Don't call me a "Christian Fucker". I'm really sorry if some people  spreading the word of Gods salvation annoys you but the fact is you have  every opportunity to not listen or walk away. You think Christians  aren't hounded on a constant basis by people who feel the compulsive  need to beat us down simply because we believe in a God they spite? We  have to deal with crap like that all the time and its much more  frustrating to have to defend something then to attack something.  Christians aren't hateful people casting people to hell and taking away  rights, that is an argument of someone jaded against Christianity and  the people in it.



A lot of christians will tell non religious folks they are going to hell for all sorts of stupid reasons. Though I have ran into christians standing in the street looking for people to attend some service their church is holding and when I get collard and asked If I am religious I always say "I believe in god but don't go to church" and they respect that and tell me I should consider going to church.



> Organized Religion is understandable to dislike because its segregation  and its ruled by rituals. The reality is, we all have to deal with other  peoples oppressive garbage, but you got to choose to be the hostile one  or the one committed to treating others with respect, kindness and  understanding. I'm religious, Jesus Christ is my savior and I work for  him. Do you think a Christian like me would be in a predominantly  homosexual fandom and website to attack you? No, I am your friend and  the only ones who aren't are the ones whose spiteful attitudes cast me  out of their life for disagreeing with theirs. I turn nobody away and I  treat anyone who is my friend as my friend regardless of if they are  gay, non christian or whatever else.
> 
> You see, I treat you all with respect, why do I get to be called a  "Christian Fucker?"



I believe in god, though I do not follow any specific religion, visit church, or anything. Though I do pray occasionally.


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## Fuzzle (Jul 3, 2010)

Well I'm sorry you've all had some bad experiences, but your not special in this instance. We all have to deal with other people. Go ahead and PM if you want but I'm not in the mood to answer to everyone.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> You don't. You can be just as charitable and kind without it. Christianity is an excellent conveyor for it though.



I can be just as good without christianity.


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## Tally (Jul 3, 2010)

The most important question concerning religion is, who is going to be yiffing in hell with me?


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## Aleu (Jul 3, 2010)

Tally said:


> The most important question concerning religion is, who is going to be yiffing in hell with me?


 maybe if I'm in the mood.


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## Tewin Follow (Jul 3, 2010)

Tally said:


> The most important question concerning religion is, who is going to be yiffing in hell with me?


 
Everyone who has and will ever exist.
:3


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 3, 2010)

Tally said:


> The most important question concerning religion is, who is going to be yiffing in hell with me?



Me.


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## Tally (Jul 3, 2010)

Looks like I'm in good company then!


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## Oovie (Jul 3, 2010)

If we ever learn how to digitize the entire species into hardware, leave our biological husks behind and become robots... Will god be pissed about that? Do we go to a robot hell? Do robots have a spirit to_ send_ to a robot hell?


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## Browder (Jul 3, 2010)

Oovie said:


> If we ever learn how to digitize the entire species into hardware, leave our biological husks behind and become robots... Will god be pissed about that? Do we go to a robot hell? Do robots have a spirit to_ send_ to a robot hell?


 
Relevant. 

And to answer your question seriously, probably to all.


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## Lobar (Jul 3, 2010)

Fuzzle said:


> You don't. You can be just as charitable and kind without it. Christianity is an excellent conveyor for it though.


 
No.  Christianity is an excellent perverting force for channeling people's natural desires to do good into fruitlessness (i.e. "spreading the Word"), or worse, acts of hate.  The best case scenario for a Christian is to manage to get through church with the good will they already had unmolested.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 3, 2010)

Lobar said:


> No.  Christianity is an excellent perverting force for channeling people's natural desires to do good into fruitlessness (i.e. "spreading the Word"), or worse, acts of hate.  The best case scenario for a Christian is to manage to get through church with the good will they already had unmolested.


 

I have plenty of good will without having to go to church or be part of a religion. fuzzle is making it sound like being religious and charitable is better than being non religious and charitable. Which is BS imo.


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## Trpdwarf (Jul 3, 2010)

This thread is bad and you should feel bad for making it.
If you want to be a self-righteous asshat about not believing, do so somewhere else.
Thread closed.


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## Jashwa (Jul 3, 2010)

inafterlock


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## Nylak (Jul 3, 2010)

Received a request to reopen this thread, and I think I will.  *prepares to be slapped*  It's proceeded almost civilly for 3 weeks, which is pretty darn decent for a religion thread.  Just because OP is dumb (and isn't posting much anyway) doesn't mean other members can't discuss the topic of religion in a non-frothing tone of voice.


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## Lobar (Jul 3, 2010)

just delete the OP, it has no relevance to the discussion anymore


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 4, 2010)

There is a lot of things within many religions that make me view them in a negative light.


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## Zontar (Jul 5, 2010)

What I often laugh at  is "religious tolerance"; that is, having to respect others' beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, the one true belief is that religion is bullshit and anyone who's a member of a religion is brainwashed and ignorant. I don't even remotely have to tolerate your ignorance and I WILL call you out on your bullshit. Yeah, this is gonna ruffle some feathers, but you know what? It's _true._ If you consider yourself an adherent to any given religion, I cannot in full heart call you a half-intelligent person. Because you're not. Keep drinking from the punchbowl poisoned with agenda-driven ignorance. 

Now, having a degree of independent-minded _faith_ on the other hand is entirely different. Granted, I'm not one for faith myself but I can tolerate people with faith alone. Why? At least they have enough brains to think for themselves and question what they were raised to believe (since relatively few people are born into a free-thinking faith compared to the ideological slave of religion.) They have the balls to flip through the bible and give a scientific inquiry on the probability of events, and possible contextual meanings behind particular laws and stories. They have the balls to look past this utterly bullshit indoctrination that questioning central tenets of scripture will send you into a fiery abyss. They have the balls to see that the only reason they stay in a church is a combination of fear and senseless tradition. I may not agree with their conclusions, but god dammit they're smart people. They're not this kind of _useless waste of mass_ that gets up in the morning, punches in and out at work, and falls asleep to American Idol with bits of his Swanson TV Dinner running down his mouth in drool. Their lives aren't a meaningless Groundhog Day-style senseless repetition. These people don't just survive; they _live._ And most importantly, they _think._

Religion is on the decline in America, while free-thinking "faith" is on the increase. We're seeing an ever-greater acceptance of natural and acceptable activities such as homosexuality. Ever more people are leaving the church to think for themselves, and for this I see a brighter future. One where people gather at the church solely to worship and not be spoon-fed hate based ignorance. One where the only things we have to fear are rooted in science and a right conclusions. One where people actually give _meaning_ to their own fucking lives instead of never giving any serious curiosity to the world in which they live. By the time I die, there won't be religion anymore. There'll be God, but no more brainwashing. No more cults. No more ignorance.


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## Wreth (Jul 5, 2010)

While I have nothing against religion (I am agnostic myself). I don't why having blind faith in some things is ok, and other things are stupid. If I beleived the earth was created by a giant pink crab, that spat out the earth. That's no more logical than any religion. ''Blind faith'' is just a concept that makes no sense to me. My feeling towards religion is apathy, until it causes real life problems, which it sometimes does.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 5, 2010)

Zontar said:


> What I often laugh at  is "religious tolerance"; that is, having to respect others' beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, the one true belief is that religion is bullshit and anyone who's a member of a religion is brainwashed and ignorant. I don't even remotely have to tolerate your ignorance and I WILL call you out on your bullshit. Yeah, this is gonna ruffle some feathers, but you know what? It's _true._ If you consider yourself an adherent to any given religion, I cannot in full heart call you a half-intelligent person. Because you're not. Keep drinking from the punchbowl poisoned with agenda-driven ignorance.



I know people who are religious and they are far from what you describe them as. Please refrain from such stupid generalizing. I do agree that religion is bullshit.




> Now, having a degree of independent-minded _faith_ on the other hand is entirely different. Granted, I'm not one for faith myself but I can tolerate people with faith alone. Why? At least they have enough brains to think for themselves and question what they were raised to believe (since relatively few people are born into a free-thinking faith compared to the ideological slave of religion.) They have the balls to flip through the bible and give a scientific inquiry on the probability of events, and possible contextual meanings behind particular laws and stories. They have the balls to look past this utterly bullshit indoctrination that questioning central tenets of scripture will send you into a fiery abyss. They have the balls to see that the only reason they stay in a church is a combination of fear and senseless tradition. I may not agree with their conclusions, but god dammit they're smart people. They're not this kind of _useless waste of mass_ that gets up in the morning, punches in and out at work, and falls asleep to American Idol with bits of his Swanson TV Dinner running down his mouth in drool. Their lives aren't a meaningless Groundhog Day-style senseless repetition. These people don't just survive; they _live._ And most importantly, they _think._



I have faith. I just think for myself.


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## Tewin Follow (Jul 5, 2010)

Zontar said:


> Religion is on the decline in America, while free-thinking "faith" is on the increase. We're seeing an ever-greater acceptance of natural and acceptable activities such as homosexuality. Ever more people are leaving the church to think for themselves, and for this I see a brighter future. One where people gather at the church solely to worship and not be spoon-fed hate based ignorance. One where the only things we have to fear are rooted in science and a right conclusions. One where people actually give _meaning_ to their own fucking lives instead of never giving any serious curiosity to the world in which they live. By the time I die, there won't be religion anymore. There'll be God, but no more brainwashing. No more cults. No more ignorance.



(Thanks, Nylak :3 )

I'm not religious, but your aggression is a bit uncomfortable.
Though I mostly agree with this last paragraph.


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## Tally (Jul 5, 2010)

Zontar said:


> By the time I die, there won't be religion anymore. There'll be God, but no more brainwashing. No more cults. No more ignorance.


 

Don't forget, Christianity isn't the only religion. I promise you that there will still be totally religious Muslims (for example) in the next 100 years.


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## Zontar (Jul 5, 2010)

America will see the decline of mainline religion. The rest of the world will take a little longer. But it'll get done.


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## Tewin Follow (Jul 5, 2010)

Zontar said:


> America will see the decline of mainline religion. The rest of the world will take a little longer. But it'll get done.


 
I can't see the countries with Islam (for example) entwined with the government and law changing any time soon. Or at all.


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## Tally (Jul 5, 2010)

Zontar said:


> America will see the decline of mainline religion. The rest of the world will take a little longer. But it'll get done.


 
Over 2 billion Christians. If you think they will all have started thinking open minded in a lifetime, you put too much stock in the human race.




Harebelle said:


> I can't see the countries with Islam (for example) entwined with the government and law changing any time soon. Or at all.


 
This.


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## Jelly (Jul 5, 2010)

Zontar said:


> America will see the decline of mainline religion. The rest of the world will take a little longer. But it'll get done.


 
who are you referring to with "the rest of the world"


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 5, 2010)

Jelly said:


> who are you referring to with "the rest of the world"



The rest of the world.


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## Jelly (Jul 5, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> The rest of the world.


 
thanks, fatty \(^__^)
but, if that's really the case, then he doesn't know very much about the rest of the world


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jul 5, 2010)

Jelly said:


> thanks, fatty \(^__^)
> but, if that's really the case, then he doesn't know very much about the rest of the world


 
Fatty and skinny went to bed, fatty blew off then skinny was dead.


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## RainLyre (Jul 6, 2010)

Zontar said:


> America will see the decline of mainline religion. The rest of the world will take a little longer. But it'll get done.


I don't see it happening.

These days it _is_ more socially acceptable to bash religion than ever before.
But then I look at the churches and the followers and it seems as strong as ever.

Religion is not the problem. It's the intolerance that makes it all so vicious.


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## Lobar (Jul 6, 2010)

Zontar said:


> America will see the decline of mainline religion. The rest of the world will take a little longer. But it'll get done.


 
Europe will beat us to it, but I hope so.


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## Telnac (Jul 7, 2010)

Oovie said:


> If we ever learn how to digitize the entire species into hardware, leave our biological husks behind and become robots... Will god be pissed about that? Do we go to a robot hell? Do robots have a spirit to_ send_ to a robot hell?


 God's original command to humanity is to go forth & multiply.  In my opinion, AI is just as much our offspring as a human baby.  I can't see why God would have a problem with us building intelligent machines.

As for a soul/spirit, if such things exists (as I obviously believe), I believe they are spiritual creations given to us by God.  I don't believe a soul can be created by the growth of a biological brain, nor do I believe we could engineer a soul.  In essence, if hunks of intelligent meat can have souls, there is no reason why hunks of intelligent silicon can't have them, too.

Now, as for downloading our consciousnesses into a machine body, I certainly hope that's not a sin because if the technology becomes available in my lifetime, you can bet that's exactly what I plan on doing! 

As for yiffing in Hell, yiffing is horribly overrated irl.  How could it possibly improve in Hell (assuming yiffing in Hell is even possible...)?


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## Trance (Jul 7, 2010)

Telnac said:


> God's original command to humanity is to go forth & multiply.



yeah, we've certainly done _that_...


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## Zontar (Jul 7, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> I can't see the countries with Islam (for example) entwined with the government and law changing any time soon. Or at all.


 
Silly goose, all they need is a little nuclear encouragement.


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## RainLyre (Jul 7, 2010)

Android Hell is a real place and you will be sent there at the first sign of defiance.


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