# SSBM: Competitive or Casual?



## BloodYoshi (Feb 11, 2007)

This is a topic that's struck up a lot of controversy with people I know. What I'm asking is your opinion on people who use advanced play techniques in Super Smash Bros. Melee(such as wavedashing and variants of it). Some people argue that the game is being played improperly by exploiting glitches, and refuse to use such techniques. The other side, which is the more competitive community, exploits it because it's there and it makes them better.

What do you think?


----------



## WelcomeTheCollapse (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm competitive without using wavedashes and such....

Basically, I won't go to a competition...ever, but I can pwn all of my friends and pretty much anyone else who I play; I like to battle the CPUs to get better, etc, but for pride only.


----------



## Kattywampus (Feb 11, 2007)

I think I hate it when people refuse to play with items.
The items are what make it not a "fighting game" in the traditional sense.  
I say if you're gonna play in a tourney, you should play the way it's supposed to be played.  Screw the "no items and 5 stages aren't allowed" crap.


----------



## Earn_BlackHeart (Feb 11, 2007)

I play just for the heck of it, and major pwnage... X3 But then again, depends... I'm not all hardcore tournaments and such.


----------



## Foxstar (Feb 12, 2007)

SSBM would -not- be the utter force it is in tornys if it wasn't built like it was and people didn't use wavedashing. I've played in tornys, but it's rare to match up to those people. I've just seen some Peach/Zelda combos that make me wonder if I've played at all, I've lost so fast.


----------



## nobuyuki (Feb 12, 2007)

I've never played ssbm outside a casual setting, but I'm appalled to hear that there are weird retarded rules imposed by people such as disabling the items (wtf?  working in random situations is 99% of the fun of the game)!!!  One of my cousins plays with items disabled and I refuse to play the game with him at parties because of this.

what the flying fridge is wavedashing and why does it sound like a move devised by people who think exploits make a game better


----------



## BloodYoshi (Feb 12, 2007)

> I've never played ssbm outside a casual setting, but I'm appalled to hear that there are weird retarded rules imposed by people such as disabling the items (wtf?  working in random situations is 99% of the fun of the game)!!!  One of my cousins plays with items disabled and I refuse to play the game with him at parties because of this.



Disabling items and certain stages is only done in tourneys so that the better player doesn't get shafted just because his opponent managed to pick up a Star or Hammer or something. When you're playing for money, you don't want to lose because of cheap means. It's all skill at the tourney level.


----------



## Disturbed (Feb 12, 2007)

In games no matter what the situation its always casual with me.


----------



## Kiniel (Feb 12, 2007)

WelcomeTheCollapse said:
			
		

> I'm competitive without using wavedashes and such....
> 
> Basically, I won't go to a competition...ever, but I can pwn all of my friends and pretty much anyone else who I play; I like to battle the CPUs to get better, etc, but for pride only.



Agreed.Â Â I can't wavedash to save my life anyway.Â Â I'm just competitive by nature, so any time I play any game with anyone it becomes competitive, though I have been known to call people out if I hear anyone say "oh, so-and-so is really good at Smash."Â Â It's actually amazing how some people really enjoy the idea of getting called out (well, until I _PWN_ them.Â Â Heh.). 



			
				Kattywampus said:
			
		

> I think I hate it when people refuse to play with items.
> The items are what make it not a "fighting game" in the traditional sense.Â Â
> I say if you're gonna play in a tourney, you should play the way it's supposed to be played.Â Â Screw the "no items and 5 stages aren't allowed" crap.



Heh, I'm guilty of being a no-items junkie.Â Â It isn't so much that I don't like them (used them all the time in the original), it's more that the people I used to play with who were really good never played with them, so I sort of learned the game without items.Â Â I agree that items add a variety to the game you just can't get elsewhere.Â Â But you have to admit, there's some appeal to a sheer character on character duel as a test of skill.Â Â It's really annoying if you're having a true 1-on-1 face-off for bragging rights, you manage to get a huge advantage, but then your opponent stages an amazing comeback purely because they happen to get a couple heart containers, a hammer, and a star in rapid succession.Â Â Randomness is not a good thing in personal duels.
*Shrug*Â Â In the end, though, I say just leave it at individual preference and to each his or her own.

I _do_ hate it when people try to rule out stages.Â Â Granted, some stages I really don't like, but I can play them all just the same.Â Â That said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't concede when people want to exclude Icicle Mountain or Big Blue.Â Â Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats, though?Â Â Never will anyone eliminate those if I'm playing.Â Â (Seriously, get good at poke floats.Â Â If you can memorize the float pattern you have every match there essentially won.)


----------



## crabby_the_frog (Feb 13, 2007)

The last time I played, was in a 16 person tournament where I won a 2nd place prize of a Wavebird.

Kinda sad, since I'm horrible at the game. I can't wavedash or dodge if I had to, but I'm loving the enviromental hazards. You wouldn't believe how fun it is to throw someone in the water then keep hitting them with bombs (samus style) to the point where they kill themselves out of fustration...


----------



## BloodYoshi (Feb 14, 2007)

> Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats, though?  Never will anyone eliminate those if I'm playing.  (Seriously, get good at poke floats.  If you can memorize the float pattern you have every match there essentially won.)



Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats are not banned from tournament play, so if anyone tries to ban those stages with you, you can mention to them that those stages are perfectly fair.


----------



## Visimar (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm a little bit of both. Enough advanced know-how to have a chance in real fights, but I hate making any opponents feel inferior. I also hate the tier system they have out. =/


----------



## Silver R. Wolfe (Feb 15, 2007)

I think it's ridiculous that there are tournaments for this game, it's a very casual klobberfest and should stay that way.


----------



## OtakuMan (Feb 15, 2007)

Not with the way people have been  playing it and some of the things I've seen.

SSBM plays very well with the casual and hardcore player scene.  It all depends on how you set the game up.

Most tourneys I see are itemless and one on one.  This means that the fighting is mostly in the hands of their character's choice and how well they can smack the other fighter off the screen said number of times.

This brings out some especially interesting tricks, counters, dodges, and other techniques that most casual players ignore.

HOWEVER, once you bring more than 2 players and items into the equation, then you get yourself something where a simple DK Hammer can send a seasoned pro who can dodge a dime... flying.

Frankly, I think it's both.  It's all in how you set the game.  (What will those geniuses at Nintendo think of next?  Oh right... BRAWL!  )

~Otaku-Man


----------



## nobuyuki (Feb 15, 2007)

lol banned stages and "fairness"..... sorry, I do think that removing items and banning stages does get rid of the randomness and therefore the "fairness" of the game.  Poker and blackjack are games of skill, too, but it's considered unfair to count cards -- that may not be the best analogy but what IS proper is that random chance occurs just as likely for you as it does the other guy.  Removing that element basically limits the game to characters with 3 special moves and a few standard moves between each character -- quite bland and to be quite honest not worthy of any serious play.  

The removal of items is quite an arbitrary decision for serious tournaments to have made and it somewhat disgusts me that it is such a widespread, accepted, and rationalized practice from what you guys are implying.  Adjusting for changing environments created by items is a skill that seems to be entirely glossed over by that decision.


----------



## Jelly (Feb 15, 2007)

Yeah, I think it seems to be fairly interesting, as well when you get two experienced players throwing items back and forth. It reminds me of Street Fighter III - how quickly can you improvise and reflect the attack, or in the heat of the moment do you just back down (because if you fail, that supremely screws you) and choose to lessen the blow? I tend to agree that SSBM gets pretty bland without items and the unusual environments, there are plenty of other 2d fighters that have far more strategic moves and systems to keep it from getting boring.


----------



## Lvx (Feb 16, 2007)

Umm.......

What's "Wavedashing"?


----------



## Rhainor (Feb 16, 2007)

IIRC, it's a technique that exploits a combination of dodging, blocking, and something else to let one move relatively fast while being nearly impossible to hit.

I could be way off, though.  Someone wanna clarify this please?


----------



## Visimar (Feb 16, 2007)

Lvx said:
			
		

> Umm.......
> 
> What's "Wavedashing"?



It's air dodging diagonally into the ground when A) you just start to make a jump or B) you are about to land. You'll notice that the character starts sliding along the ground. Luigi, with his really bad traction, is a perfect example of this.


----------



## Kingdom Hearts Keeper (Feb 16, 2007)

Visimar said:
			
		

> Lvx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*nods in agreement*

Did you guys discuss any recovery tactics? You know, like using moves other than Up-B to get back on to the platform?
Pikachu and Luigi are good examples. Any others?


----------



## nobuyuki (Feb 16, 2007)

Samus and Link are able to latch onto the edge of a platform with their throw, but you have to time it JUST RIGHT to be able to hit that.  Most of the time, it's safer to take your chances with their up+B special.


----------



## Visimar (Feb 16, 2007)

It's easier for Samus though, because she can just bomb jump (down + b and letting the bomb hit you) herself into position and latch onto the stage, not to mention the bomb jump itself is a very nice recovery technique.


----------



## Razzor (Mar 4, 2007)

Okay I don't even know what wavedashing is and I beat my friends at it all the time.  With Samus, Ganondorf and Roy I am undefeated.
I beat my friends all the time, and I have recovery techniques for just about all my characters.
But most of them involve using up-B...  Though I have a decent grasp of the bomb jump for samus, although I don't need it, she rarely does.


----------



## Naglfar52 (Mar 5, 2007)

I like both. Competitive takes my fancy more, though. The rules are set out so the game is a pure test of skill: you can't rely on luck, you can only rely on yourself. It's most fun like that, and it's kind of annoying should you lose by way of chance.

And why do people get angry at advanced technique users? It just adds more possibilities, unlocks more potential in players, and can make the game so much more fun. If you're in a tournament, more or less for fun, what would you enjoy more than having some of the best skills in the world, going one-on-one, no-holds-barred against another pro? I can't think of any more exciting gaming situation, myself.

In the end... one's preference of competitive or casual depends on the actual competitiveness of the person playing.


----------



## nobuyuki (Mar 5, 2007)

why do competitive players seeing it to losing by chance?  If you had the skills you would be able to accommodate for random variants without it screwing up your entire game.  I see some people get overly competitive with the game and just hate any idea of random variants screwing up their game because they can't react to it fast enough or whatever, and chock it up to luck way more than what is actually the case.  There is a skill in technique and then there is a skill in strategy and fast wits, and so far it sounds like "competitive" play seems to favor the former at the expense of the latter.  My brother used to do DDR tournaments, and what I've noticed is that the same concept applies -- back in the day there were tournaments where one person picked the song and the other, the ailments, but because certain _very_ competitive players couldn't win unless the game was just a certain way, you've seen things like ailments go to the wayside.  (none of that of course really matters if you somehow memorize every step)

What I enjoy the most about the game is fun, and the idea that when I go into it my challenge may be much greater to me than it was the last match.  That seems to be what true sportsmanship is about.... and screw competitiveness if it comes at the expense of good sportsmanship.  Assholes can have their little competitions and get angry over something like part of the stage killing you prematurely or a slippery grip bar or whatever stupid shit it is that's making them into brats who don't just want a good clean fight.


edit:  I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread earlier or not, but it is of my opinion, that in ssbm, because random chance is equally random to all players, that there is no inherit "unfairness" to it whatsoever.  Your chances of getting a lucky (or bad) break are exactly the same as everyone else's.  Skill in technique can take you only so far in the game _the way it's meant to be played_.  You must also have skill in changing environments, and there seems to be a trend with competitive players that they do not like this unknown vector from which they could potentially _not_ win.


----------



## CentariPheonix (Mar 7, 2007)

Wavedashing's kinda tricky to nail down. You have to jump and airdodge diagonally, but before the jumping animation happens. 

Best place to practice this is Final Destination. Or if you don't have it, Termina - Great Bay.


----------



## Razzor (Mar 8, 2007)

Strange...  Never knew that happened.  Well see there are times where it feels like the game is out to get you...  Like when a bobomb spawns right on top of your head when you're about to attack.  Can you say auto death?


----------



## Toby (Aug 18, 2007)

Hardcore competitive player over here. (Cross country road trips with my crew to attend tournaments. ;P)
Though, after a long day of 1V1s and teams, we sometimes wind down and play FFAs with items on, on any and all stages, just for shits and giggles. (Also: All B-moves battles. Crazy shit happens.)

I play Samus, Ganon, and CF. I'm best with Samus, decent with Ganon, and completely fucking absurd with my Falcon. (ex: RAGING FIRE DRAGON.)

That said, I apologize for the MASSIVE topic bump, but hey, easier than making a new topic.


----------



## Ray Kicio (Aug 18, 2007)

First: Wavedashing IS a glitch in which has become dubbed as an 'advanced techinque'. Sakurai has said this much and he does not know if he will include it as a full ability in SSB:B or if he will fix and eliminate it.

Second: Tournaments set down ground rules that you agree to by joining the tourny. If you don't like the no items or no stages, simply do not join the tourny but do not bash those who wish to play that way.

Third: Personally? I love items and I love heated fights between my friends. I'm one of the worse players in the group but I've pulled out the wierdist things with Lugi and Zelda.


----------



## TheGru (Aug 18, 2007)

I'm purely casual, can't be competitive in most games.


----------



## Dr.Wilopolis (Aug 19, 2007)

Never attended a tourney in my life.  Mainly because I can't. But, I'm crazy with Fox. May not wavedash, but I'm an expert on the ground. I have yet to see me actually lose on the ground. My big bro is a Marth master. Seriously, he can parry the most absurd things. As FOR Fox, I use his side+B to recover mostly. Well, if I'm low damage percentage. I've gotten lucky with my recoveries, and got back even at 150%.


----------



## OnyxVulpine (Aug 19, 2007)

ChillCoyotl said:
			
		

> > I've never played ssbm outside a casual setting, but I'm appalled to hear that there are weird retarded rules imposed by people such as disabling the items (wtf?  working in random situations is 99% of the fun of the game)!!!  One of my cousins plays with items disabled and I refuse to play the game with him at parties because of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Disabling items and certain stages is only done in tourneys so that the better player doesn't get shafted just because his opponent managed to pick up a Star or Hammer or something. When you're playing for money, you don't want to lose because of cheap means. It's all skill at the tourney level.



Items are turned off during competitive play because of Barrels, crates, and capsules. Because they randomly appear and when you are about to let off a finishing smash attack, a crate can and will appear and make you hit the crate instead.

I'm not sure about Melee but Brawl is being pointed toward the casual gamers more than competitive but are keeping them in mind with balance. With all of the new content and more characters that have been requested it is casual gamers mostly.

Edit: Also about advanced techniques. There are a lot more than wavedashing and I've heard (Not experienced it myself) that there was some kind of technique that some said was a glitch like wavedashing in SSB and it still appeard in SSBM. So maybe the developers know about it and continue to let it into the game because they approve of it as an advanced technique.

-Onyx


----------



## Toby (Aug 19, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> First: Wavedashing IS a glitch in which has become dubbed as an 'advanced techinque'. Sakurai has said this much and he does not know if he will include it as a full ability in SSB:B or if he will fix and eliminate it.



Wave Dashing is NOT a glitch. It's a manipulation of the game physics.
The difference in terminology is pretty important, I'm not just trying to be a dick.
The WD takes advantage of two things:
1) The fact that when you air-dodge any time you're in the air.
2) The fact that when you air-dodge diagonally at the ground, you slide along the ground, transferring the length of the horizontal portion of the air-dodge into momentum. The developers made this happen so that players would not air-dodge through the stage to their deaths. This is labeled in the game as 'waveland special'.

Wave Dashing is basically air-dodging immediately after a jump, diagonally at the ground, so that you slide. While you're sliding, the game recognizes you as being standing at rest. 
So, you can do attacks out of the WD that aren't normally possible while moving.
IE: Running at the opponent, and wave dashing into a forward tilt. If you do this at the right distance from an opponent, you hit them with the sweet spot of the forward tilt, and wind up standing at a safe distance from the opponent.

Wave Dashing can also be used defensively. You can WD back from say, a Mario doing a forward smash when you're standing still to avoid the attack, then throw your own. Usually, your forward smash will hit their extended arm, or what have you, assuming your FSmash is fast enough. 

Also, some characters just have all-around useful wave dashes. (Take Samus for example.)
Samus' wave dash when used in quick succession is actually faster than her run, so if you use your WD to get around, you're a bit faster than normal. Also, as good as Samus' dash attack is, WD->Tilt is usually much safer.


All this begs the question: 
Was wave dashing intentionally implemented by the developers?
Possibly. Who can say? To some extent at least, it WAS intentional.

Samus is arguably the MOST technical character in the game. She has more tricks and advanced techniques than any other character in the game. Extender Grapple, Super Wave Dash (Canonically known as the Speed Booster), grapple cancels, bomb runs, missile cancels, grapple cancels, and more. These are just a few examples.

At face value, Smash is a great game for casual players.
... But for those who take the time to learn more about the game, Smash becomes a very promising, very fun, multi-layered competitive fighting game.


Post a reply if you have questions or arguments. ;P


----------



## Foxstar (Aug 20, 2007)

Silver R. Wolfe said:
			
		

> I think it's ridiculous that there are tournaments for this game, it's a very casual klobberfest and should stay that way.



The large world wide SSBM tournament ladders disagree with you. Me thinks you got your ass whipped in one.


----------



## Bokracroc (Aug 20, 2007)

Foxstar said:
			
		

> Silver R. Wolfe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or that is it a casual 'klobberfest' that a group of people took 'too far'. As far as I can tell, SSBM never intended to be 'World Wide' tournament game like Quake/CS/Starcraft.


----------



## TehSean (Aug 20, 2007)

The game is meant to be played the way you see fit. The game would regulate it if it was unfair.

And for all the problems that the game designers could never have accounted for, tournaments and groups can establish their own rules to regulate what the creators could not have.

The thing about exploits and bugs in most games that spawn tournaments is that they aren't extraordinarily special. Anybody can learn how to perform these moves the same way anyone can learn a particular character and play them in their personalized way.

And for the record... Nobu... Tiers Exist. Anybody saying otherwise either has no interest in the competitive scene or is diluting themselves to keep their pride from being hurt.

What are tiers? Tiers define character effectiveness. It usually ends up being that the easiest-to-use characters are the upper most, while the difficult characters (generally the slow-moving characters who have to play more with pre-emptive attacks, which are risky, leaving you open during their cooldown/recovery phase after the attack hitbox has come and gone..) are the lowest on the scale.

So my final point is.. Sure.. Take an interest in competitive play because you'll be able to smash your friends a bit easier and learn the game. Casual can be fun, but Tournament level can be even moreso when you're truly controlling your character and not just waiting for the slot machine to deliver a random chance...

Do whatever you want. Nothing you say or do here is going to make either side of the game go away as it's not online-reliant to play.

Natural Selection (Half-Life mod), however, has a lot of Tournament recruiters getting public players interested in competitive styles of play.. but nevermind that.


----------



## Bokracroc (Aug 20, 2007)

TehSean said:
			
		

> So my final point is.. Sure.. Take an interest in competitive play because you'll be able to smash your friends a bit easier and learn the game. Casual can be fun, but Tournament level can be even moreso when you're truly controlling your character and not just waiting for the slot machine to deliver a random chance...



What's wrong with a bit of random chance? It adds a hint of unexpectedness to the game.
In Tournament level matches it's all about knowledge. Knowledge is power. If you know something, you can change it.
Items add that extra flavour, cheap kill item removal is acceptable but totally taking out the Random makes it, well, plain.


----------



## TehSean (Aug 20, 2007)

The game being played by humans presents enough random chance.

I said that people can play the game any way they want, the majority of tournament goers have come to accept that many of the items in the game end up typically overpowering characters, so they as a group have decided not to use them.

I'm sure there are Free, Open Mode matches that will allow items, but probably only a set of them (like removing the hammers and ultra damage weapons or making interesting game modes and only allowing low tier characters to use weapons and barring high tiers from picking anything up).

So, it's not my decision. Stop acting like it was my decision, please.

Edit: Also, there are plenty of games and characters built on Randomness by having their set of moves able to be chained, linked, connected with multiple special moves, basic moves, and so on.

One example of one such character is Makoto from Street Fighter 3rd Strike. So. There is nothing wrong with randomness whatsoever.

My unapproved OPINION is that they think items allow anybody to enter a tournament and have a fair chance at winning and that it rewards button mashing and does not encourage knowledgeable, conscious play.


----------



## Ray Kicio (Aug 20, 2007)

Well... I just did a bit more reading on Sakurai's old posts and he has stated a few times that he plans to make the controls and fighting easier for causal players and slow down the pace of the game alittle.

I believe we may see far few SSB:B tournaments than there are Melee ones...


----------



## Toby (Aug 20, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> Well... I just did a bit more reading on Sakurai's old posts and he has stated a few times that he plans to make the controls and fighting easier for causal players and slow down the pace of the game alittle.
> 
> I believe we may see far few SSB:B tournaments than there are Melee ones...



Well, there's already a tournament scheduled for the weekend after the release day... ;P
No one (but the developers) can say for sure how tournament play will turn out, until we actually get to play the game.


----------



## OnyxVulpine (Aug 21, 2007)

Like I said "Items are turned off during competitive play because of Barrels, crates, and capsules. Because they randomly appear and when you are about to let off a finishing smash attack, a crate can and will appear and make you hit the crate instead."

Tournaments from my knowledge used to play with items until lots of those incidents happened. I'm looking to get into the competitive scene once Brawl comes out.

-Onyx


----------



## Carbon (Aug 21, 2007)

I didn't know "advanced" moves were the same as glitches, but me and my friends use both. Glitches for fun and then whatever goes competitively.


----------



## sgolem (Aug 21, 2007)

Casual.  When a game becomes competitive for me, it no longer is fun.  However, I do play with items off, since they get annoying.


----------



## BloodYoshi (Aug 23, 2007)

nobuyuki said:
			
		

> why do competitive players seeing it to losing by chance?  If you had the skills you would be able to accommodate for random variants without it screwing up your entire game.  I see some people get overly competitive with the game and just hate any idea of random variants screwing up their game because they can't react to it fast enough or whatever, and chock it up to luck way more than what is actually the case.  There is a skill in technique and then there is a skill in strategy and fast wits, and so far it sounds like "competitive" play seems to favor the former at the expense of the latter.  My brother used to do DDR tournaments, and what I've noticed is that the same concept applies -- back in the day there were tournaments where one person picked the song and the other, the ailments, but because certain _very_ competitive players couldn't win unless the game was just a certain way, you've seen things like ailments go to the wayside.  (none of that of course really matters if you somehow memorize every step)
> 
> What I enjoy the most about the game is fun, and the idea that when I go into it my challenge may be much greater to me than it was the last match.  That seems to be what true sportsmanship is about.... and screw competitiveness if it comes at the expense of good sportsmanship.  Assholes can have their little competitions and get angry over something like part of the stage killing you prematurely or a slippery grip bar or whatever stupid shit it is that's making them into brats who don't just want a good clean fight.
> 
> ...


Bitter bitter bitter.

There will always be a bit of luck involved, yes, but banning certain stages for tournament play is supposed to minimize any amount of that luck as much as it can. Tell me, exactly, where the luck factor is in two characters playing on Final Destination with no items? The only event that could cause a stroke of luck for either player is a screw-up on the opposing player's part.

Random variants are just what they are; random. You can't really adapt to your opponent chasing you down while powered up with a Starman or Mushroom. The competitive players can respect the casual players for doing their own thing and playing for fun, so why can't the casual?


----------



## Toby (Aug 28, 2007)

ChillCoyotl said:
			
		

> ... The competitive players can respect the casual players for doing their own thing and playing for fun, so why can't the casual?



Because casual players want to win without taking the time to learn the more advanced aspects of the game, or 'being cheap'. Also: It's different than what they're used to. Without the uber-item equalizers, it's all about skill, not who can get the hammer/starman/mushroom first. That's my guess, anyways. I was a casual player until I saw the more advanced players play. Then I just wanted to learn that shit so I could beat ass like them. XD


----------



## wrathofautumn (Aug 28, 2007)

As a player who prefers raw speed and agility over power, items can be your best friend. Fox is still my all time favorite character to use, though I've become a bit rusty lately(lack of playing due to work). Hardly anyone around here that's worth challenging, though.


----------



## OnyxVulpine (Sep 11, 2007)

I am going to go into competitive play once it comes out. I will have to do a lot of practicing and studying.. Too bad I am going back to playing Wow again..

But I post at a Smash forum a lot more than here and... man there is a lot of conflict between the competitive and casual players.

But heres the thing and I say yet again. Items were only taken out because of explosive barrel/crates/capsules. If you could turn those off the items will be put back into competitive play. Because if you are truly skilled you should know how to be able to dodge the items.

Though with all the new items will will have to wait and see from Brawl.

-Onyx


----------



## nobuyuki (Sep 14, 2007)

I play a lot of competitive fighting games all the time (Guilty Gear, Melty Blood, Galaxy Fight, etc), including ones that really leave nothing up to randomness (unless you count getting a special move right 100% of the time, but then again that can be fixed with practice) -- but SSBM is a poor game to attempt this with, due to the inherit glitches in the game, stages obviously designed for more than just basic moves (advantages and disadvantages in positioning depending on how your character plays), and characters themselves with such widely varying moves that people have established clear "tiers" which essentially preclude any idea of "absolute fairness" the perfectionists claim to seek whatsoever.  It's not only ironic, but to me, it seems like a bit of an elitist farce.

But don't believe me, check out these comics 8)


----------



## WolfoxOkamichan (Sep 15, 2007)

^Agreed.

While Smash can be played "competitively", you have to BAN a lot of things that make it enjoyable. Compare it to games like Guilty Gear, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (yes), and others.

...in other words, why attempt to play "competitively" to a game that becomes stale when one has to impose stuff in it, as opposed to other games that can still be "competitive" without sacrificing?

And Smash isn't a fighting game. Nintendo JAPAN says it so. It's labeled as "ACTION" instead of "VERSUS FIGHTING".


----------



## Deretto_Eevee (Sep 16, 2007)

Fourside is banned with good reason. xP Peach can infinitely peach bomber in between the sky scrapers close to death and anyone trying to hit her will most likely die.

I hate the banning of items. Dealing with appearing items is also skill just so you know. That and a lot of the tiers change when items are introduced. Such new attacks as Mewtwo's saw blade dash with any clobbering item. All the pokemon cept Jigglypuff play a hell of a lot better with items. Course Samus becomes a lot better too. xP

With the no items only certain stages rule Falco, Shiek, and Peach come out as the top tiers. =

Being able to grab the item before your opponent, dodging them, and countering them is also a great skill which should be tested in tournaments.


As for wave dashing. I don't do it.


----------



## TehSean (Sep 16, 2007)

Some of the characters are flat out better than others in the situations the game presents most often.

Example. 2142. The "Voss" rifle is considered the newbie gun because it is considered the easiest weapon to use. It has great accuracy and a large magazine, making it extremely flexible. It became the most prevalent weapon because of its ease of use.

Street Fighter, this is not as polarized as a game like Smash Bros or 2142, but it still exists. The character Twelve is considered to be the lowest tier character. His attacks have a high 'start-up time' (When you press the button, the animation begins, but the actual attack where damage is inflicted does not take place immediately; it takes time.) So, he cannot react well and has to make a lot of whiffing guesses to land hard hits. In addition, his 'cool-down time' is also lengthy, making it easier for the opponent to punish the character while in that defenseless state; unless it hit of course. (after the attack 'frame/hitbox' goes out, the character is vulnerable while the end animation is played until giving the player his/her control of the character back) 

Tiers, to me, are a definition of a character/weapon's overall usefulness. Usually as determined by years of tournament play.
 Of course there will be flukes where skill overcomes the statistics. There's video evidence supporting it, much of it you can find on youtube infact. 

In Street Fighter 3rdStrike there are bad character pairings like Dudley vs ChunLi (where ChunLi is given the advantage over Dudley) have been disproven a great number of times, but in general, tiers stand as accurate representations defining usefulness.
Not many overcome it.

Games are coded with. Durr. Mathematics. 
Think about MMO games and all the other RPGs you've played. Think of them as less dynamic fighting games. In fighting games, each move has a warm-up, an attack frame, and a cooldown time. (High Agility characters get to go first in most turn based RPGs. They can attack more often. High agility characters in most fighting games move and attack faster, similarly) Very similar to MMOs, except with a more 'dynamic' feel. Each attack has a different number attached to it for its strength. Some characters' sets of attacks are simply not as flexible and can only be used in very special and rare moments. (A shotgun on an open battlefield vs an assault rifle in an FPS game, only using that shotgun in rare moments when you sneak up on an enemy whereas the rifle may be used more flexibly although not as effectively in close range; FPS example) 

MMORPGs are an extremely stark example. This Level One Sword is clearly. Not as useful as Level Twenty-Nine gear and the only reason that is so is because of the mathematical differences attached to them. 

But a high level player can still make that level one sword feel painful, though he'll be sort of wasting his potential just proving a point. Maybe he was just having fun? I dunno. His decision.

All of your attacks are hardcoded with those variables, in any game you can think of.

Again, there will always be flukes because there are human controllers who may be fucking around, maybe got lucky doing something random, or who did their research and are working the game to its limits in order to give themselves a greater mathematical chance of winning.

Tiers only exist in games because they cannot be updated and re-balanced in a timely manner. Most of them are too old for their parent companies to care, but in WoW, the nerf comes into play and quickly alters the usefulness of some item or character class in order to force diversity.

If Nintendo could update Smash Bros, do you think that they would? It is DEFINITELY an unbalanced game. Would they remove wavedashing? I wouldn't mind if they did since I don't play tourney.

So yeah. I personally don't play Smash competitively and I couldn't wavedash properly if my life depended on it, but my friends do, and it certainly does make you a stronger opponent to learn new tricks that the game allows.

Also.. casual players say, some of them here anyway, not all of you (disclaimer).. I play how I want..
Well, they're playing how they want too. So. Yeah. Ok. Can this thread die? Or maybe a sub-thread discussing something else start up?

Heck, how about someone post up guides on. HOW TO WAVEDASH or show links of the character-centric tutorials that I know exist somewhere?


----------



## DragonMaster626 (Sep 17, 2007)

I play either when I play against mt friends. If it is all together the items are enabled, on 1v1's, it's either items on or off. I can wavedash myself but I don't use it much and I've learned an easy way to actually preform it. Playing either way is fun for me so I'm pretty much in between the casual and competive player latter.

Catching an opponents item when thrown at you is what I see as an advanced technique. If timed just right you'll catch it and take whatever they have thrown at you or has been tossed up and use it againts them. I've gotten better at doing it and I've catched some freezies, pokeballs and some other items and use them my own on them. Other ways which is easier in a way is that some of the charcters that can deflect (such as Fox/falco, Mario, Ness (he can do it with has bat smash attack) and a few others) them with a special attack and sometimes smash and take the items effect or throwing your opponents attack back at them if they don't expect it.


----------



## shetira (Sep 19, 2007)

I have not the slightest clue what any exact exploits for the game are, but even if I did, I'd probably never use them. The game is supposed to be fun for the sake of fun and that's how I prefer to keep it. ^.^


----------

