# Only in China. (death of two year old toddler)



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

I first saw the uncensored video on YT, then on another forum I found this news report on it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15398332

How can people be so cruel?

For those who may be interested in the uncensored video here it is WARNING: Video is very graphic and contains disturbing scenes, discretion is advised!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo7BDbH17qA


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Oct 23, 2011)

Holy fuck. And the witness just walked by. Has he got no heart?


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## Ariosto (Oct 23, 2011)

I think I just died a little inside.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> Holy fuck. And the witness just walked by. Has he got no heart?


It appears Chinese people have no heart. Or traffic laws.


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## Leafblower29 (Oct 23, 2011)

Heard this. I'm thinking over there helping the person may make them held responsible for their injuries.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Leafblower29 said:


> Heard this. I'm thinking over there helping the person may make them held responsible for their injuries.



China is a fucked up country.


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## Rukh_Whitefang (Oct 23, 2011)

This is China, where hitting a pedestrian is bonus points while driving. It happens all the time, its just not widely reported. My friend was in the big cities in China last summer. Said nobody can drive over there. People get hit all the time. China has little to no traffic laws. That and everyone in China is a 1st generation driver too. That doesn't help when the largest country in the world that is quite lax of human rights was just given keys to drive.


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## Schwimmwagen (Oct 23, 2011)

.






Is there any way I can like, un-watch this?


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## Namba (Oct 23, 2011)

:C What the hell?


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## Akz (Oct 23, 2011)

No. I refuse to believe there's a place on Earth where a dying child on the street can go completely ignored.

Seriously, that's fucked up beyond belief.


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## ZerX (Oct 23, 2011)

Akz said:


> No. I refuse to believe there's a place on Earth where a dying child on the street can go completely ignored.
> 
> Seriously, that's fucked up beyond belief.


It's not only in china. Stuff like this also happens in North Korea, Somalia,...etc


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## Bliss (Oct 23, 2011)

"Only in China"? Stuff likes this happens _everywhere_. In this case it was a little child which just gets more coverage.

People are apathetic.


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## Aetius (Oct 23, 2011)

Gota love how fucked up some people are.

Well, at least the drivers were arrested by the authorities.


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## ZerX (Oct 23, 2011)

If you want to see worse stuff I can give you a link to a documentary about N. Korea.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Oct 23, 2011)

Gibby said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Booze. Plenty of booze


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## Aetius (Oct 23, 2011)

ZerX said:


> If you want to see worse stuff I can give you a link to documentary about N. Korea.



Meh, North Korea is far worse than hell. Trust me.


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## OssumPawesome (Oct 23, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> "Only in China"? Stuff likes this happens _everywhere_. In this case it was a little child which just gets more coverage.
> 
> People are apathetic.



Shit, like 9 months ago or so if I recall, some guy got fucking stabbed on a busy New York street and like a dozen people walked over him while he slowly bled to death in the middle of the walkway.

Someone even checked his pockets and shit if I remember.

I'm sure someone could explain the whole diffusion of responsibility and all that psychological stuff that explains seemingly-psychopathic behavior like this.


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## jeff (Oct 23, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> "Only in China"? Stuff likes this happens _everywhere_. In this case it was a little child which just gets more coverage.
> 
> People are apathetic.



i still think it was slightly more horrible when that homeless guy bled to death on a busy sidewalk in NY
especially considering the good samaritan laws

its not like he was in a corner, he was in the center of the sidewalk
some people even stopped and stared

(ninjad)


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## kyle19 (Oct 23, 2011)

Not the first time this has happened unfortunately...


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## OssumPawesome (Oct 23, 2011)

jeff said:


> (ninjad)



This victory is strangely satisfying.


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## ZerX (Oct 23, 2011)

kyle19 said:


> Not the first time this has happened unfortunately...


Also not the last time.


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## ramsay_baggins (Oct 23, 2011)

The fuck... And the way she was still moving, even after that second guy ran over her legs...

And her mother finding her...


Jesus, I'm never going to be able to erase that from my mind.


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## Volkodav (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Apparently Chinese people have no heart.


Don't say "chinese people" have no heart. Just the people who walked by

Fuck. I can't understand how someone could see that and walk by. Not even pick the kid up and call the police


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> The fuck... And the way she was still moving, even after that second guy ran over her legs...
> 
> And her mother finding her...
> 
> ...



When I say something is very graphic and should watched at your own discretion, I mean it.


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## Lula (Oct 23, 2011)

I can't believe what I just saw there. For once in my life, I'm actually speechless.


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## Xeno (Oct 23, 2011)

Don't have the guts to watch it, so anybody mind telling me what happened.


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## Schwimmwagen (Oct 23, 2011)

Mike the fox said:


> Don't have the guts to watch it, so anybody mind telling me what happened.



Try reading the thread.


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## Lunar (Oct 23, 2011)

It could also be because of the child's gender.  Females in China are not considered as important as males, which alone disgusts me.  This really tugged at my heart.


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Apparently Chinese people have no heart.


Okay, this whole "blame it on China" and typecasting a large demographic of people has got to stop. What happened is tragic, but not uncommon elsewhere in the world. It's called the bystander effect where in large groups individuals fail to react to a dire situation and reliquish social responsibility. Kitty Genovese is a notable case, but it's unfortunately all to common. I think the last time I read about this was a hit and run in the American state of Georgia where a 17 year old girl was hit and left bleeding in the gutter while 20 men and women walked past her. None stopped and no one phones the police. She died. So no, this is not "OMFG CHINAAAAAA!"


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## dinosaurdammit (Oct 23, 2011)

I cried, puked in my mouth and then hugged my daughter :<


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> Okay, this whole "blame it on China" and typecasting a large demographic of people has got to stop. What happened is tragic, but not uncommon elsewhere in the world. It's called the bystander effect where in large groups individuals fail to react to a dire situation and reliquish social responsibility. Kitty Genovese is a notable case, but it's unfortunately all to common. I think the last time I read about this was a hit and run in the American state of Georgia where a 17 year old girl was hit and left bleeding in the gutter while 20 men and women walked past her. None stopped and no one phones the police. She died. So no, this is not "OMFG CHINAAAAAA!"



It doesn't matter where it happens it's still despicable behavior. There is no way on gods earth I could just walk on by anyone who was hurt like that, especially a child.


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> It doesn't matter where it happens it's still despicable behavior. There is no way on gods earth I could just walk on by anyone who was hurt like that, especially a child.


That's exactly it. It doesn't matter where it happens, because it happens everywhere. I'm just trying to stop this lynching party from blaming this on Chinese people. Because it's not just Chinese people, it's people from all walks of life all over this world. And it is sickening. And horrifying. And it gives us the opportunity to reflect on ourselves and our lives and to take action in the future, to not hesitate when we hear the call to help, and to lend ourselves courage to face what may come. It could have happened anywhere, maybe a multiple lane highway near you. Would you hesitate? Pass by? Leap from your vehicle and shield the child with your body? I've been in situations like that, I know how I react. This is a time for each of us to reflect on ourselves and ensure that within our power we do not let such things happen ever again.



Rukh_Whitefang said:


> This is China, where hitting a pedestrian  is bonus points while driving. It happens all the time, its just not  widely reported. My friend was in the big cities in China last summer.  Said nobody can drive over there. People get hit all the time. China has  little to no traffic laws. That and everyone in China is a 1st  generation driver too. That doesn't help when the largest country in the  world that is quite lax of human rights was just given keys to  drive.


This is not true. "Hitting a pedestrian is bonus  points while driving"? Are you even thinking before you type? These are  fellow human beings, not some secondary species that completely  different to us and lacks conscience. These are people too, and they  have feelings and actions and reactions *just like you*.  The traffic is bad, the laws on traffic are bad, but saying that the  people take part in running each other over like a sport is just  callous, degrading, and dehumanizing.


Example time:
In April 2010 Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax was stabbed to death in New York  City after coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked by a  robber.  Yax was on the sidewalk for more than an hour before firefighters  arrived. Almost twenty-five people walked by while he lay dying on a  sidewalk in Queens, *several stared at Yax, one of them took pictures,  however none of them helped or called emergency services.*


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

>Implying this doesn't happen anywhere else.

People can be fucked up creatures sometimes, and that is universal.


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## Lobar (Oct 23, 2011)

This is an example of the bystander effect, not the moral inferiority of any particular race or culture.  OP, I'm sure it comes from wanting to believe such a thing could never happen at home, but you're coming off as a racist ass.


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## Rukh_Whitefang (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo, I was speaking on China's lack of traffic rules. Its nuts over there. Flat out dangerous to try and drive around in their city's. My buddy has pictures of a full size semi truck driving past them at 80mph on the shoulder. You want a good article to read on the horrible driving in China.

Lets see what motortrend says about their driving:

When the traffic lights go green, oncoming cars will race to make their left turn before you get across the intersection.

*No  one stops for pedestrians, even when they're on a crosswalk with the  light. Crosswalks seem to be regarded purely as a signal that a  pedestrian might get in your way.

*U-turns are done at random, regardless of the lines on the road, or the oncoming traffic.

Chinese drivers rarely bother looking left when turning right out of a  side road, preferring to leave the problem of avoiding a crash to  everyone else.

 Slow-moving trucks and even slower-moving three-wheelers, usually  groaning under a load that would have an F-150 raising a sweat, are  treated like mobile chicanes.

Lane markings are advisory only, and using turn signals is purely optional.


My personal favorite is what they said about cap drivers: "seem to have learned their technique watching Dale Earnhardt. You don't mess with a Hangzhou cab driver."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0910_driving_in_china_big_picture/#ixzz1beDhHsW4


So, like I said, pedestrians getting hit in China, doesn't seem all that strange with how they drive.

Am I appalled at what happened? You bet, and I surprised? Nope. Not at all.
​


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## Tiger In A Tie (Oct 23, 2011)

A few days ago, I saw a video of a dog getting hit by a car and then another dog running into the road and drag the injured dog to safety. They both lived.

And here we are, not taking the initiative to save our fellow humans as some people watch an innocent person slowly die when it's within our power to save lives.

And Deo's right. it's not fair that this whole ordeal is stuck on China. It happens even right here in the old USA. People here are as guilty of passing by injured people just as much as other countries may.


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Of course, Randy, it doesn't help that you titled this thread "Only in China". That carries a heavy connotative weight to it, don't you think? 

I mean beyond the hyperbole, it segregates China as the *only* country and the Chinese as the *only* people to do or have done this. Which to be honest, is either a typing mistake made on your part because you didn't think through your words, or racism. I'd like to think it's just badly chosen words, however since that tone of animosity towards the Chinese has continued in the rest of the thread I find it's a good enough reason to speak up in making a point to show that the bystander effect is not culturally, geographically, or racially contained to only one set of people.


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Lobar said:


> OP, I'm sure it comes from wanting to believe such a thing could never happen at home, but *you're coming off as a racist ass*.



Pretty much this, OP is making himself look like a narrow-minded hick.


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## Schwimmwagen (Oct 23, 2011)

Tiger In A Tie said:


> And Deo's right. it's not fair that this whole ordeal is stuck on China. It happens even right here in the old USA. People here are as guilty of passing by injured people just as much as other countries may.



Aye, I saw a very similar video to this and it was in the US. Less graphic, though, but it certainly was very, very shocking.


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## Aidy (Oct 23, 2011)

Yeah I've seen this happen before, near me. Wasn't with a car though, some pricks battered and mugged a guy and I saw everyone else walk past him, but I helped him out because I've got a heart luckily so it doesn't only happen in China, happens quite a lot all over the world to be honest.


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## Ad Hoc (Oct 23, 2011)

She was picked up after seven minutes. That's better than several American cases. (Those went on on for about an hour each before someone intervened.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm shocked and appalled. It's horrific that it happened. However, it didn't happen because Chinese people are heartless monsters. It happened because Chinese people are people.


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Apparently Chinese people have no heart.



What the fuck, Randy?

I mean, seriously?


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## Lunar (Oct 23, 2011)

Aidy, I love your avatar.

On topic, I can't stop thinking about this.  And even when my brain takes a break, it goes to thinking of countless other cases similar to this that I've read about.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Lobar said:


> This is an example of the bystander effect, not the moral inferiority of any particular race or culture.  OP, I'm sure it comes from wanting to believe such a thing could never happen at home, but you're coming off as a racist ass.



Oh I see, I'm racist for posting a NEWS report from China. Don't talk fucking bullshit.


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## Ad Hoc (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Oh I see, I'm racist for posting a NEWS report from China. Don't talk fucking bullshit.


Dude. :l



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Apparently Chinese people have no heart.


This is why.


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Chinese drivers rarely bother looking left when turning right out of a  side road, preferring to leave the problem of avoiding a crash to  everyone else.


Oh so you ride with chinese drivers often? So you KNOW that they "rarely bother" looking around them as they drive? Rukh, check yourself because your blanket statements are coming off as racist. You can say that the laws are bad or impotent, you can say the traffic is terrible, but implying that _specifically Chinese people_ drive with negligence bordering on manslaughter is presumptuous and over reaching.



Ad Hoc said:


> This is why.


That and the title of this thread really don't leave much room for quibbling.


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Oh I see, I'm racist for posting a NEWS report from China. Don't talk fucking bullshit.



Hmmm....



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Apparently Chinese people have no heart.



*coughlolcough*


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## Aleu (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Oh I see, I'm racist for posting a NEWS report from China. Don't talk fucking bullshit.



Title says "Only in China" then proceed to say "Apparently Chinese people have no heart"


SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS


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## Tiger In A Tie (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Oh I see, I'm racist for posting a NEWS report from China. Don't talk fucking bullshit.



It's not that you posted a news story from China, it's your comments following it that aren't very...clean? i guess? Sorry, can't think of better words.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

JamesB said:


> Pretty much this, OP is making himself look like a narrow-minded hick.


 


JamesB said:


> What the fuck, Randy?
> 
> I mean, seriously?


 


JamesB said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> 
> 
> *coughlolcough*



Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the thread is based on what happened in china. Also I notice when people say "Only in America" no one yells racist. Hypocritical much?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Tiger In A Tie said:


> It's not that you posted a news story from China, it's your comments following it that aren't very...clean? i guess? Sorry, can't think of better words.



Agreed, one of my comments wasn't. But I figured most would get the reference considering China's bad reputation. I guess these forums aren't that smart. :v


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## Aleu (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the thread is based on what happened in china. Also I notice when people say "Only in America" no one yells racist. Hypocritical much?



Yes but given that it doesn't only happen in China...hmm

Also "Lol these people do it so I can too"


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Agreed, one of my comments wasn't. But I figured most would get the reference considering China's bad reputation. I guess these forums aren't that smart. :v



I guess most of us know you're just trying to cover your ass at this point.

Too late, cat's out of the bag.


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## DeepDarkSamurai (Oct 23, 2011)

OH MY GOSH! thats so horibal, i think i might have just died a bit :'(


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## Lunar (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the thread is based on what happened in china. Also I notice when people say "Only in America" no one yells racist. Hypocritical much?


I guess most people can relate to "Only in America".  This thread went from focusing on the tragedy involving the brutal death of a little girl to criticizing someone for being "racist".  China hasn't done much to impress me, so I'm not too sympathetic towards their general population.  Of course that's not saying America has.  I'm kind of sick of most of it.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Aleu said:


> Yes but given that it doesn't only happen in China...hmm
> 
> Also "Lol these people do it so I can too"



I don't see why it's ok top say it about one country but not another. I am also very aware it doesn't just happen in China. But we are all aware that china makes people work for practically nothing so we can have all the nice things we have today.We all know china has pretty much no road laws (much like India).


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## ZerX (Oct 23, 2011)

Interesting that this is heading in the same direction as did this same topic on a different forum. ppl started with racist comments, accusing the chinese being scum,..etc.It got locked in the end and infractions were given out.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

JamesB said:


> I guess most of us know you're just trying to cover your ass at this point.
> 
> Too late, cat's out of the bag.



Not covering my ass at all. Now stop using it as an excuse to derail the thread. If you have nothing to add to the topic then stop posting.

that is all from me.


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> I am also very aware it doesn't just happen in China.





			
				Thread Title said:
			
		

> *Only in China.*



Holes, OP is full of them.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

JamesB said:


> [/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]



Poor choice of words on my part, Now, I ask again not to derail the thread.


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the thread is based on what happened in china. Also I notice when people say "Only in America" no one yells racist. Hypocritical much?


Okay. So we all readily know where you said "Only in China" but could you quote the person in this thread that said "Only in America"?
à² _à² 

The thing to do here Randy is not to divert attention away from what you said, but simply own up to it and say "Well that wasn't what I intended to say but I can see how my word choices could imply that. Gosh I'm sorry and did not intend to say racist things". Then we'd say "Golly, we make wording mistakes too! It's only human". Then we can go back to discussing the child and the travesty of the bystander effect and what implications it has on social responsibility and morality.


EDIT:


Randy-Darkshade said:


> Poor choice of words on my part, Now, I ask again not to derail the thread.


Wonderful. Now let's get back to talking about what happened.

So this all took place in under seven minutes, if I'm not mistaken, who among us would have reacted quicker if we were farther away? Who among us can honestly say that they'd leap into oncoming traffic for a stranger?


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## Lunar (Oct 23, 2011)

Okay, people, we get it, this thread is full of racism and accusations of the aforementioned.  Jesus christ, a little girl just died and she could have been saved.  Can we please get back on topic?  Poor thing... R.I.P. angel.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> Okay. So we all readily know where you said "Only in China" but could you quote the person in this thread that said "Only in America"?
> à² _à²
> 
> The thing to do here Randy is not to divert attention away from what you said, but simply own up to it and say "Well that wasn't what I intended to say but I can see how my word choices could imply that. Gosh I'm sorry and did not intend to say racist things". Then we'd say "Golly, we make wording mistakes too! It's only human". Then we can go back to discussing the child and the travesty of the bystander effect and what implications it has on social responsibility and morality.



I did, to James last post. 

Yes I chose my fucking words wrong, I am pretty sure most of you here are well aware I often choose my words poorly, I wasn't being racist intentionally, it was un intentional. If I was able to edit the title myself I would, but the forums don't allow that.


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## Neuron (Oct 23, 2011)

That officially ruined my day and it's like it's so horrible I want to cry and cry for hours but I can't I'm all dried up for some reason.

Anyway this phenomenon of people not helping someone who is injured it not uncommon. Does it make people heartless, or do most people just have no idea what they are supposed to do? People also are squeemish and get scared of touching blood or someone who might be injured. People who stop and stare at such scenes are captivated by their trauma and don't know what to do.

That's why as a person and after watching this video everyone should learn how to take a few deep breaths, calm the fuck down, and read up on how to assist an injured person, should you ever encounter a situation like this.


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## ramsay_baggins (Oct 23, 2011)

*Guys, let's not turn this into a racism bitch fest, a little girl died in a horrific manner. Regardless of where it happened, it's a tragety. Please don't turn this into a squabble.*

Thanks.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 23, 2011)

lunar_helix said:


> Okay, people, we get it, this thread is full of racism and accusations of the aforementioned.  Jesus christ, a little girl just died and she could have been saved.  Can we please get back on topic?  Poor thing... R.I.P. angel.



I have already said TWICE not to continue to derail the thread.



ramsay_baggins said:


> *Guys, let's not turn this into a  racism bitch fest, a little girl died in a horrific manner. Regardless  of where it happened, it's a tragety. Please don't turn this into a  squabble.*
> 
> Thanks.



I have asked for it to get back on topic twice myself. I have also admitted I choose my words for the title wrong. There is a reason why I word things poorly but I doubt anyone would believe me if I told em'. 


Anyway. What got me was the van driver just, drove at here, she was clearly visible and he just continued to drive like she wasn't there, then despite stopping, he drove the back wheel over her as well. Then the second van decided to drive over her legs instead of go around her. It was like they WANTED to kill her. Like the drivers just didn't give a shit who got in the way, it was like watching real life GTA.


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

lunar_helix said:


> Okay, people, we get it, this thread is full of racism and accusations of the aforementioned.  Jesus christ, a little girl just died and she could have been saved.  Can we please get back on topic?  Poor thing... R.I.P. angel.



A month ago here in the US, a little girl was hit by a van and died while some soulless retards recorded the shit, drove away, and uploaded it onto youtube.  They then posted it on 4chan.  The video was up for a grand total of less than an hour before it was taken down, but generated tens of thousands of views.

How much news coverage did that get?  None that I know of.


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## RedSavage (Oct 23, 2011)

Apathy, I believe, is a horrid action that _all_ human beings are capable off, no matter what nationality or race.


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Well apathy is a part, another part is the belief that you have no moral obligation to stop and help and or that someone else will do it so that you do not have to. Then there is the fact that most people are untrained for such situations and would not know how to react. Example: You see someone gets hit by a car, but do you move them from the road? How do you do that without 
causing further injury? Do you know how to move a person with a spine or head trauma? Or if there is still heavy traffic would you honestly throw yourself into the thick of it without hesitation? People freeze up, they don't know how to act, or react and so they don't do anything. 
It's one thing to sit on out duffs and brag about how WE WOULD do this, about how different we are, how brave and bold we are, how morally upright we are, how quickly we would spring into the role of the white knight. But most of us have never been in that situation before. You don't know how you'll react when put in that situation until it actually happens. To be honest I used to be that person who would boast that sure_ *I*_would go gallivanting to the rescue without hesitation.* I *could be the hero,* I* wold never let that happen,* I* am different. But you know what? When I was thrown into that situation I hesitated, I froze. Eventually I got my butt moving to help save people, but there was an amount of time spent in shock and recoil. the experience has really taught me a lesson in being humble and in separating the boasts of people from the reality of the human condition. Sure, we all want to be the hero, we all claim we wouldn't flinch, we would not hesitate when someone's need called upon us, but we're only human.

Of course there are exceptions to this. Like the stabbing case I brought up earlier in which people stopped to take photos of the dying man but not help him. Helping him would have posed no physical risk to the samaritan, and a person with knife wounds can be moved easier than a person with spinal damage. And then there's the obvious solution of calling paramedics.


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## dinosaurdammit (Oct 23, 2011)

I know one thing- I would cry. 

Poor thing. I tried to do some looking and am a bit confused. Some reports state she is stable others say she is dead. Which is it?


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## Aetius (Oct 23, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I know one thing- I would cry.
> 
> Poor thing. I tried to do some looking and am a bit confused. Some reports state she is stable others say she is dead. Which is it?



She was confirmed to have died after 8 days of Intensive care.


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## Cyril (Oct 23, 2011)

If the Chinese people gave a damn, this wouldn't happen in the first place. As it is, China's just a terrible place. Saw that video a while back, sad to hear that the kid died though :<

But yeah... lots of countries have huge human rights issues unfortunately.


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## dinosaurdammit (Oct 23, 2011)

Crusader Mike said:


> She was confirmed to have died after 8 days of Intensive care.



:,<

I feel like all people everywhere are losing the respect for human life


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## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

So... we're not going to actually discuss morality or psychology are we? This is just a thread where we post "this makes me sad" and then don't address the underlying issues or human nature?

*OK *
à² _à²


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## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> :,<
> 
> I feel like all people everywhere are losing the respect for human life



People have been like this ever since they climbed down from the trees.


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## Lobar (Oct 23, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> I did, to James last post.
> 
> Yes I chose my fucking words wrong, I am pretty sure most of you here are well aware I often choose my words poorly, I wasn't being racist intentionally, it was un intentional. If I was able to edit the title myself I would, but the forums don't allow that.


 
When posting a mea culpa, it helps to not remain extremely defensive and argumentative about it, instead giving a sincere admission of where you went wrong and a plan to avoid doing it again in the future.

But gracelessness aside, I accept it, I believe you weren't consciously trying to advance a racist viewpoint.

Moving on, from that article and others related to it, it would appear that Chinese citizens are just as shocked and appalled by the situation as we are.  A lot of quoted comments from Chinese social networking sites read like those you'd expect from angry Western commenters.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Oct 23, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> :,<
> 
> I feel like all people everywhere are losing the respect for human life


Don't get too discouraged. History if full of atrocities that make this look like a Disney movie; that there's been an outcry is a pretty good show of how far humanity has come. (And that outcry was in China as well as here, if you read Randy's article. They're talking about making it punishable by law to walk away from someone in need, now.) 

Not trying to diminish the tragedy, though. It's pretty awful.

EDIT: Dangit, ninja'd about the outcry in China.


----------



## RedSavage (Oct 23, 2011)

Cyril said:


> If the Chinese people gave a damn, this wouldn't happen in the first place. As it is, China's just a terrible place.



Well this isn't racist at all. 

Wouldn't it be more fair to say that, in general, apathetic people don't give a damn?

Or, allow me to humor this borderline racist thread with some info. 

IN THE US: There are numerous cases of people being hit by cars and ignored, people keeling over _dead_ in ERs with onlookers refusing to help, and as stated above, a stabbing case where people took goddamned photos of the guy instead of phoning for help. 

Also, last year in China, a young man carried an elderly woman who had fallen off a bus to the hospital, _only to be sued by the woman_, even though she could not properly prove or identify to person who had knocked her of. *She won,* because the China courts determined that _common sense_ states that he wouldn't have brought he in unless he felt guilty for being guilty. 

Would _you_ wanna jump to someone's aid with that in mind? I would try my best, nonetheless, but I can make so promises. 

But quit with this fuckin' "Hurr durr all china men and women are apathetic bastards'. The people in the video? Yeah, they are. All China people? Nope.avi. Speaking as someone who's from a state that gets labeled as slack jawed and slow thinking all the time, I can honestly say that blatant generalization _gets really fucking old_ and it's hardly fair.


----------



## Aleu (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> So... we're not going to actually discuss morality or psychology are we? This is just a thread where we post "this makes me sad" and then don't address the underlying issues or human nature?
> 
> *OK *
> à² _à²



Far beyond our intelligence level.

But seriously I agree with your post for the most part. Yeah, I'd LIKE to be the one to help someone out, but I'd probably suffer from the shock of it if it happened before me.

Now, afterwards would be a different story. Like if it was the case where someone was there bleeding in the street from the stabbing then I'd park myself there and call the authorities.

May sound pretty dumb, but I think in other cases, some people are hesitant helping here because they're afraid of being sued if they ever made something worse. I think i read somewhere a while back that someone was suing someone else for causing spinal injuries when the good samaritan was trying to remove them from a wreck.



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Also, last year in China, a young man carried an elderly woman who had fallen off a bus to the hospital, _only to be sued by the woman_, even though she could not properly prove or identify to person who had knocked her of. *She won,* because the China courts determined that _common sense_ states that he wouldn't have brought he in unless he felt guilty for being guilty.



This works too.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Don't say "chinese people" have no heart. Just the people who walked by
> 
> Fuck. I can't understand how someone could see that and walk by. *Not even pick the kid up* and call the police



That, I think, was the worst part, seeing that child picked up and flopped about like a ragdoll... no one thinking about the need to not move someone who is so seriously injured, let the parameds take care of moving her, so she suffers no complications.  And it wasn't her mother who found her.


----------



## Commie Bat (Oct 23, 2011)

Well that was quite unfortunate, once again there is another disgrace to human society/humanity.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 23, 2011)

Almost missed this:



Deo said:


> Oh so you ride with chinese drivers often? So you KNOW that they "rarely bother" looking around them as they drive? Rukh, check yourself because your blanket statements are coming off as racist. You can say that the laws are bad or impotent, you can say the traffic is terrible, *but implying that specifically Chinese people drive with negligence bordering on manslaughter is presumptuous and over reaching*.



I've seen the same driver-neglect in America as Rukh reported from China through "Motortrend".  People not using their turn-signals is rampant... making right turns from the left lane (had a truck pull that in front of me back in the mid/upper 80's, while I was in college)... driving other traffic off the road (had the first Hummer H2 I ever saw deliberately do that to me... more like attempted murder than manslaugher)... and I could go on.


----------



## Obscurimity (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm  happy my Chinese friend is in America and not there now. I know not all Chinese are as heartless as they passerbys, but it does prove a lot are.


----------



## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Aleu said:


> Far beyond our intelligence level.



:<
Come on FAF, you can do better.


----------



## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> :<
> Come on FAF, you can do better.



You have too much faith.


----------



## Aetius (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> :<
> Come on FAF, you can do better.



I can only argue stuff that deals with North Korea or Wars.

Sorry :<


----------



## Volkodav (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo, I dunno if you've ever seen driving in China.. but yes, they drive so fucking hazardously.
This video is not from China, but from Taiwan.. which is kind of baby China. There are more scooters than there are people in Taiwan, and they all drive like this:

Ignore the talking, pay attention to the driving
[yt]qHay3Y6rfWA[/yt]
Everybody there cuts everybody else off. Sometimes they even drive on the side-walk.


----------



## Aleu (Oct 23, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> Almost missed this:
> 
> I've seen the same driver-neglect in America as Rukh reported from China through "Motortrend".  People not using their turn-signals is rampant... making right turns from the left lane (had a truck pull that in front of me back in the mid/upper 80's, while I was in college)... driving other traffic off the road (had the first Hummer H2 I ever saw deliberately do that to me... more like attempted murder than manslaugher)... and I could go on.



Oh, so you've been to Florida? :V


----------



## Ames (Oct 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Taiwan.. which is kind of baby China.



Uh...

No?


----------



## Aetius (Oct 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> D Taiwan.. which is kind of baby China.


Chiang Kai shek is not amused.


----------



## Volkodav (Oct 23, 2011)

JamesB said:


> Uh...
> 
> No?


Yes it is, I declared it.


----------



## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Deo, I dunno if you've ever seen driving in China.. but yes, they drive so fucking hazardously.


It looks like the traffic there is better than in New York city, Chicago, or Orlando. Or Jamaica. None of those people look like they're driving with the intent of "scoring points" or performing vehicular manslaughter Clayton. Yes, traffic is bad in China, I get that, but saying that the people are driving with the intent purpose to drive poorly or cause death or harm to others is a lie.


----------



## Volkodav (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> saying that the people are driving with the intent purpose to drive poorly or cause death or harm to others is a lie.


I never said that and I agree with you.


----------



## Telnac (Oct 23, 2011)

It's only a matter of time before that happens here in Phoenix, too.  Traffic laws here are so poorly enforced and jaywalking so commonplace that it's a wonder children aren't run down in the street every day.  One mother was jaywalking with her baby in a stroller.  She was walking in front of cars that stopped for her, and couldn't see if cars were coming in the open traffic lanes.  Did she hesitate at all?  Nope! She just pushed the stroller into the open lane, letting her baby be run over by an oncoming SUV.  It's a miracle the baby survived.


----------



## Aleu (Oct 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I never said that and I agree with you.



She was contesting Rukh's statement on that. Not saying that you had said it.


----------



## Bliss (Oct 23, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> *tragety*


It is a what? :Vc



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Speaking as someone who's from a state that gets labeled as slack jawed and slow thinking all the time, I can honestly say that blatant generalization _gets really fucking old_ and it's hardly fair.


You *do* remind me of him...



Deo said:


> :<
> Come on FAF, you can do better.


No, we cannot. You're scary. Especially when using big words.


----------



## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I never said that and I agree with you.


No, Rukh said something earlier which insinuated that hitting pedestrians was something akin to a national Chinese sport, a comment which sparked this "Chinese people are bad drivers".



Lizzie said:


> No, we cannot. You're scary. Especially when using big words.


Lies! (jk ilu all) I've seen you guys when you put on your thinking caps and gun your philosophy engines. I guess that it's getting too late in the day for many people to effort post.


----------



## LizardKing (Oct 23, 2011)

I would assume that the bystander effect has even greater power in large, dense cities due to the sheer number of people around. "Hey, there must be _hundreds_ of people walking by here, I'm sure _someone_ will help, I'll let them do it". In small communities, it's possible the entire population is within their monkeysphere, or at the very least they would recognise them, so they'd be less likely to ignore them. Further, I suspect some of the time people assume the person is just drunk or similar. Or perhaps they convince themselves of that to free them of guilt.


----------



## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> I would assume that the bystander effect has even greater power in large, dense cities due to the sheer number of people around. "Hey, there must be _hundreds_ of people walking by here, I'm sure _someone_ will help, I'll let them do it".


This is a good point. The sheer magnitude of the population there probably allows many people to relieve themselves of social duty or responsibility to help on the basis that they assume someone else will. And when everyone in the large mass makes the same assumption nothing gets done to aid the victim.


----------



## Xipoid (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> Well apathy is a part, another part is the belief that you have no moral obligation to stop and help and or that someone else will do it so that you do not have to. Then there is the fact that most people are untrained for such situations and would not know how to react. Example: You see someone gets hit by a car, but do you move them from the road? How do you do that without
> causing further injury? Do you know how to move a person with a spine or head trauma? Or if there is still heavy traffic would you honestly throw yourself into the thick of it without hesitation? People freeze up, they don't know how to act, or react and so they don't do anything.
> It's one thing to sit on out duffs and brag about how WE WOULD do this, about how different we are, how brave and bold we are, how morally upright we are, how quickly we would spring into the role of the white knight. But most of us have never been in that situation before. You don't know how you'll react when put in that situation until it actually happens. To be honest I used to be that person who would boast that sure_ *I*_would go gallivanting to the rescue without hesitation.* I *could be the hero,* I* wold never let that happen,* I* am different. But you know what? When I was thrown into that situation I hesitated, I froze. Eventually I got my butt moving to help save people, but there was an amount of time spent in shock and recoil. the experience has really taught me a lesson in being humble and in separating the boasts of people from the reality of the human condition. Sure, we all want to be the hero, we all claim we wouldn't flinch, we would not hesitate when someone's need called upon us, but we're only human.
> 
> Of course there are exceptions to this. Like the stabbing case I brought up earlier in which people stopped to take photos of the dying man but not help him. Helping him would have posed no physical risk to the samaritan, and a person with knife wounds can be moved easier than a person with spinal damage. And then there's the obvious solution of calling paramedics.




I don't know how much people are trained not to move someone who is critically injured unless there is a present and immediate danger to their life if they are not moved. I can't speak for the average person, but prior to any kind of CPR or paramedic style of training one is told repeatedly "don't move them unless absolutely necessary". I believe we can take that into account for some percentage of a person's disinterest/lack of assistance. Shock, yes. I believe that people often stop and gawk without ever really realizing it. They had no idea that there is no help on the way until some bystander takes that first step and comes to their aid.  The rest I would hope falls under diffusion of responsibility.


There is a study of interest (and many more, I'm sure) that talks about this thing. It had to do with a number of individuals that were divided into groups and then unwittingly made part of a different study. What happened is that they told these people they were doing a test about memory and public speaking. They had people come to a building (Building A) and speak with a researcher about them having to give a short speech. They were given details about the topic and then sent over to another building that was only a few minutes away via walking. On the way there, they encountered another researcher who was pretending to be gravely ill, slumped on the ground, hacking, and just looking miserable really. What the study was really measuring was how often people stopped to help this man. They varied things like the topic of the speech (e.g., relating to being a good samaritan/morality) and the time that the speech was scheduled for (anywhere from plenty of time to make the walk to right now). I believe the study was trying to see if people's religious beliefs had any effect on the aid they would offer, which could range from doing nothing to getting the authorities. Apparently, it didn't. The main factor--if I can recall this correctly--was the time that the person had to make it to Building B. As they were given less time, they on average offered less help much less often. Apparently, some people literally stepped right over him. The topic of the speech and someone's religion played no discernable part to if they extended any aid.

This sort of ties in with how much tunnel vision people can develop. Again pointing to a study, I'm sure you've heard of the one where they had a world renowned violinist playing in a subway, and nearly everyone ignored him. I personally think this has to do with the internal monologue.


----------



## Deo (Oct 23, 2011)

Xipoid said:


> There is a study of interest (and many more, I'm sure) that talks about this thing. It had to do with a number of individuals that were divided into groups and then unwittingly made part of a different study. What happened is that they told these people they were doing a test about memory and public speaking. They had people come to a building (Building A) and speak with a researcher about them having to give a short speech. They were given details about the topic and then sent over to another building that was only a few minutes away via walking. On the way there, they encountered another researcher who was pretending to be gravely ill, slumped on the ground, hacking, and just looking miserable really. What the study was really measuring was how often people stopped to help this man. They varied things like the topic of the speech (e.g., relating to being a good samaritan/morality) and the time that the speech was scheduled for (anywhere from plenty of time to make the walk to right now). I believe the study was trying to see if people's religious beliefs had any effect on the aid they would offer, which could range from doing nothing to getting the authorities. Apparently, it didn't. The main factor--if I can recall this correctly--was the time that the person had to make it to Building B. As they were given less time, they on average offered less help much less often. Apparently, some people literally stepped right over him. The topic of the speech and someone's religion played no discernable part to if they extended any aid.
> 
> This sort of ties in with how much tunnel vision people can develop. Again pointing to a study, I'm sure you've heard of the one where they had a world renowned violinist playing in a subway, and nearly everyone ignored him. I personally think this has to do with the internal monologue.


Thank you. I am going to go look for that study myself.


----------



## Xipoid (Oct 23, 2011)

Deo said:


> Thank you. I am going to go look for that study myself.



It's mentioned in Born For Love: Why Empathy is Essential and Endangered, _I think_. That is a good book in case you haven't read it.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 23, 2011)

Aleu said:


> *Oh, so you've been to Florida?* :V



Heh, no... but Florida is not unique.  California is at least as bad, if not worse, especially in LA.  Very "bad" rep for drivers there!


----------



## Bliss (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm pretty sure there was a study where they invited you into a room to converse about something and one of the people faked a heart attack. The number of people in the room increased the time it took for the test subject to react and help by ten seconds to minutes, if I recall correctly.


----------



## My Boss (Oct 23, 2011)

Driving in China is quite an interesting experience.  Although, I did seem to notice a pattern to honking in the large mainland cities.  I couldn't quite figure it out, but I think a certain length and number of honks would indicate your intention more than a turn signal would.  According to my friends, there is a method to the madness, but regardless, driving there is still something I will leave to them.

I have also witnessed a couple of incidences of injured pedestrians or passengers around Beijing, but usually there are enough police or military officers with walkie-talkies nearby, that civilian bystanders almost don't have an opportunity to act first.  Perhaps that notion may affect certain people's reactions to similar situations.  I would like to point out that the BBC article did have a brief comment at the end about the legal ramifications for helping someone in distress.  I am unsure of Chinese regulations, but it could be possible that they don't have "Good Samaritan" laws to legally protect those who come to another's aid.  If that is the case, then everyone's anger should be directed partially towards the government, as well.

Despite the tragedy that happened, I still don't think most negative generalizations about Chinese drivers, or their moral integrity, are really that accurate.


----------



## Aetius (Oct 24, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> especially in LA.  Very "bad" rep for drivers there!



Ohh boy is it awful, very very careless drivers.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 24, 2011)

Crusader Mike said:


> Ohh boy is it awful, very very careless drivers.



"Been there, done that."


----------



## Vega (Oct 24, 2011)

Well, this really killed my mood.  Something similar happened in Europe where there was a dead bum on a curb and no one noticed him for several hours.


----------



## Aidy (Oct 24, 2011)

Vega said:


> Well, this really killed my mood.  Something similar happened in Europe where there was a dead bum on a curb and no one noticed him for several hours.



Ah, Humans. It's sad that many people have that thought that 'someone else'll do it so I don't have to'. And then others who just plain can't be arsed. Truth is, it doesn't matter how sad we get over things like this, it's never going to change unfortunately.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> Holy fuck. And the witness just walked by. Has he got no heart?



People regularly walk by frozen hoboes in Denver and say nothing. Apparently someone died of a meth overdose, laid on the side of a street for a day or so before someone walked over and said "Dude you alright?" The only thing that made it any better was that this wasn't anything like a main street where a lot of people walk by, but still, how do you not notice someone laying on the road?:/ 

A lot of people have absolutely no heart whatsoever. If there's one thing I learned, the majority of the world are borderline sociopaths who'd gladly walk over your corpse to get a better spot.


----------



## Commiecomrade (Oct 24, 2011)

I think that's the first video I exited before watching the horrifying part.

And I'm glad I did.

[stops to think about the fact that this video will be watched in its entirety tomorrow without fail]

EDIT: Fuck. I lasted 8 minutes.

That's just sad. Sometimes I think to myself "don't smile at this" when I watch something like that, and yet I always do because I'm not good at keeping a straight face at all, especially when I'm supposed to. Here, I'm just not smiling. I think the worst part is the fact that the second vehicle couldn't be assed to AVOID HER FUCKING LEGS as she lay helpless. 

I don't know whether I can blame the government or the people or the social values or what, but something needs to be done.

From the BBC article: "Several commentators have linked the failure of the passers-by to help  with high-profile cases in which residents who stopped to assist people  in distress were later held responsible for their plight."

What the everloving fuck. Sometimes I can see that some laws are created out of laziness, or greed, or as a means of political oppression. But this truly has no reason.


----------



## Deo (Oct 24, 2011)

Digitalpotato said:


> A lot of people have absolutely no heart whatsoever. If there's one thing I learned, the majority of the world are borderline sociopaths who'd gladly walk over your corpse to get a better spot.


That's... really seriously nihilistic. You don't actually believe that do you? I mean it's okay if you do, I'm not angry or judging, but that's just, well a sad. 
I honestly wish I could rekindle the faith in humanity for some of you. I wish I could.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 24, 2011)

Deo said:


> That's... really seriously nihilistic. You don't actually believe that do you? I mean it's okay if you do, I'm not angry or judging, but that's just, well a sad.
> I honestly wish I could rekindle the faith in humanity for some of you. I wish I could.



I have faith in humanity, but incidents like in my OP really piss me off. I don't understand how anyone can just walk on by someone who is clearly in need of medical attention, especially when it is a child. 

Before mom scrapped her old car she broke down twice on Sainsbury's parking lot. First time someone was kind enough to tow her car to bump start it, second time the guy in the car beside her jump started it for her. Not the same as helping a dieing person, but my point here is these two guys still gave up their own personal time to help us out. 

It doesn't take two minutes to call emergency services.



Ad Hoc said:


> Don't get too discouraged. History if full of  atrocities that make this look like a Disney movie; that there's been an  outcry is a pretty good show of how far humanity has come. (And that  outcry was in China as well as here, if you read Randy's article.  They're talking about making it punishable by law to walk away from  someone in need, now.)
> 
> Not trying to diminish the tragedy, though. It's pretty awful.
> 
> EDIT: Dangit, ninja'd about the outcry in China.



It's good that they want to make such a thing punishable, but why should those who fail to help be punished? Why aren't those who drive badly also being punished? Punishing those who leave people to die is only solving part of a huge problem.

Also why does it always take such a tragedy before people think "Oh sheeet we better do something about it now"


----------



## Xipoid (Oct 24, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> It's good that they want to make such a thing punishable, but why should those who fail to help be punished? Why aren't those who drive badly also being punished? Punishing those who leave people to die is only solving part of a huge problem.
> 
> Also why does it always take such a tragedy before people think "Oh sheeet we better do something about it now"



Well, walking away from someone in need of aid could be condemning them to death. All you have to do is call the authorities or yell for help. Anyone can do that. As for punishing those driving badly, in this case you have to catch them first. They said they were still on the lookout for them.

Sometimes it takes a catastrophe to get humanity moving... not that I'm saying this is a catastrophe.


----------



## DevistatedDrone (Oct 24, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Also why does it always take such a tragedy before people think "Oh sheeet we better do something about it now"


Apparently a large number of people didn't know shit like this happens a lot more frequently than they're aware of. It only takes some media attention for it to become a thing.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 24, 2011)

DevistatedDrone said:


> Apparently a large number of people didn't know shit like this happens a lot more frequently than they're aware of. It only takes some media attention for it to become a thing.



True, not all accidents are reported or receive media attention. a lot of minor fender benders don't get reported to police here, drivers usually exchange insurance details and go on their merry way.


----------



## lupinealchemist (Oct 24, 2011)

Digitalpotato said:


> Apparently someone died of a meth overdose, laid on the side of a street for a day or so before someone walked over and said "Dude you alright?" The only thing that made it any better was that this wasn't anything like a main street where a lot of people walk by, but still, how do you not notice someone laying on the road?:/


I'm afraid I'd have to say. "If you're dumb enough to intake that many toxic chemicals in combination, maybe you deserve to die."  However it would be courteous to inform authorities of the cadaver or even try to prevent the person from poisoning themself beforehand.

I didn't watch the op video cause that would spin me into a dimension of pissed off I don't want to be in right now.


----------



## Deo (Oct 24, 2011)

lupinealchemist said:


> I'm afraid I'd have to say. "If you're dumb enough to intake that many toxic chemicals in combination, maybe you deserve to die."


No one deserves to die. Don't be callous.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 24, 2011)

Deo said:


> No one deserves to die. Don't be callous.



True, but if some dies because of something they did to themselves? I don't have sympathy for that person, just the family he/she left behind as a result of their own stupid actions.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 24, 2011)

Deo said:


> *No one deserves to die.* Don't be callous.



Care to elaborate?  I can't imagine not puting any of a number of violent terrorist dictators to death for their crimes.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 24, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> Care to elaborate?  I can't imagine not puting any of a number of violent terrorist dictators to death for their crimes.



Killing them makes us no better than them.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 24, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Killing them makes us no better than them.



But allowing them to live to kill again (or inspire more killing) makes us better?


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 24, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> But allowing them to live to kill again (or inspire more killing) makes us better?



If you're going to debate don't put words in peoples mouths. I never said that at all. I said killing them makes us no better than them. You can stop people from doing things without killing.

Then again an Americans answer to everything is to shoot people. :v


----------



## Aleu (Oct 24, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> If you're going to debate don't put words in peoples mouths. I never said that at all. I said killing them makes us no better than them. You can stop people from doing things without killing.
> 
> Then again an Americans answer to everything is to shoot people. :v



Racist :V

Pretty sure there was already a thread on the death penalty but I think the question here more is "Would you end a life to save others?"


----------



## Holsety (Oct 24, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> Care to elaborate?  I can't imagine not puting any of a number of violent terrorist dictators to death for their crimes.


We've had this discussion multiple times (especially with you), go somewhere else with it please.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 24, 2011)

Aleu said:


> Racist :V
> 
> Pretty sure there was already a thread on the death penalty but I think the question here more is "Would you end a life to save others?"



Lets place a scenario here. I'm a cop, I get called to an incident where an armed man is running around shooting a gun at random people, I arrive and he is still firing his weapon, I would shoot to take him down. 

Depends on the scenario. 

Anyway, wtf does terrorism have to do with this thread?


----------



## Roose Hurro (Oct 24, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> If you're going to debate don't put words in peoples mouths. I never said that at all. I said killing them makes us no better than them. *You can stop people from doing things without killing.
> *
> Then again an Americans answer to everything is to shoot people. :v



Oh, you can?

http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html

Doesn't seem to be working very well, from what I can see.  Like I said, allowing them to live to kill again doesn't make us any better.  Read the above, then repeat your claim with a straight face, if you can.




Aleu said:


> Racist :V
> 
> Pretty sure there was already a thread on the death penalty *but I think the question here more is "Would you end a life to save others?"*



That is indeed a very good question.  But the above link does point out that our "justice" system is imperfect, and that the only way to prevent a murderer from murdering again is to make sure they die for their crimes.  And yes, a good way to do that is for people to understand that sometimes it's necessary to take a life to save lives.  To, as Randy put it, "shoot people".  I've always been of the mind, if I am confronted with a violent criminal who shows no respect for the lives of others, if I am able, then it is my duty to take them out, so they cannot continue their violence.  If I have the means and opportunity, and don't use them, then I become responsible, if only in part, to whatever acts of violence and murder that criminal commits afterwards.




Holsety said:


> We've had this discussion multiple times (*especially with you*), go somewhere else with it please.



_Stalker..._   :V




Randy-Darkshade said:


> Lets place a scenario here. I'm a cop, I get called to an incident where an armed man is running around shooting a gun at random people, I arrive and he is still firing his weapon, *I would shoot to take him down*.
> 
> Depends on the scenario.
> 
> Anyway, wtf does terrorism have to do with this thread?



Of course you would, it's your job, and your duty as a police officer.  But it is also my job as a human being to aid others, and if that means using the tools at hand to take down a violent criminal, then that is also my job and my duty as a citizen.


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## Digitalpotato (Oct 24, 2011)

Deo said:


> That's... really seriously nihilistic. You don't actually believe that do you? I mean it's okay if you do, I'm not angry or judging, but that's just, well a sad.
> I honestly wish I could rekindle the faith in humanity for some of you. I wish I could.




Stuff liek this as well as the shit I experience on a daily basis really really remove my faith in humanity. Just call it environmental factors - I was exposed to my fellow man as a child.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 25, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> Oh, you can?
> 
> http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html
> 
> Doesn't seem to be working very well, from what I can see.  Like I said, allowing them to live to kill again doesn't make us any better.  Read the above, then repeat your claim with a straight face, if you can.



That is the fault of the authorities. Dangerous people should be kept away from the general public, not released to kill again as your link points out. That is a failure of the system. But you haven't really disproved what I said, you don't have to kill a murderer to stop them killing again. When they get given life inside, life should mean life.




> Of course you would, it's your job, and your duty as a police officer.  But it is also my job as a human being to aid others, and if that means using the tools at hand to take down a violent criminal, then that is also my job and my duty as a citizen.



Except the law would see you as another murderer.


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## Duality Jack (Oct 25, 2011)

I am not phased and nor surprised. I would not be even if it happened close to home. People tend to just be assholes. At least the kid was hardly mentally developed, oddly thats a good thing, it reduces your capacity to suffer and mentally process pain.


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## Roose Hurro (Oct 25, 2011)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> That is the fault of the authorities. Dangerous people should be kept away from the general public, *not released to kill again as your link points out*. That is a failure of the system. But you haven't really disproved what I said, you don't have to kill a murderer to stop them killing again. When they get given life inside, life should mean life.



You weren't paying attention, Randy... a number of those short-listed "offenders" escaped from life imprisonment.  How can you ensure they ALL remain behind bars, forever?  You can't, unless you execute them before they can kill again.  Indeed, it is a fault of the system... which is exactly the point, is it not?  Why do you think God Himself commanded us to take the lives of those who committed murder?  It was so they could not kill again.





Randy-Darkshade said:


> Except the law would see you as another murderer.



No, not when I am defending myself and/or others from harm.  Of course, to make sure of that, all governments would need to acknowledge the human right to self-defense and the defense of others, and would have to allow people the freedom to own the means of such defense, without infringement.  But just like our "justice" system above, that is, unfortunately, not always the case.


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## TechnoGypsy (Oct 25, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> No, not when I am defending myself and/or others from harm.  Of course, to make sure of that, all governments would need to acknowledge the human right to self-defense and the defense of others, and would have to allow people the freedom to own the means of such defense, without infringement.  But just like our "justice" system above, that is, unfortunately, not always the case.



There's the Jewish ethical belief of Pikuach Nefesh; the preservation of human life overrides virtually any other religious consideration.


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## Duality Jack (Oct 25, 2011)

god we are arguing the ethics of murdering murderers again? God damn. Dead horse.. meet club.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Oct 25, 2011)

Roose Hurro said:


> You weren't paying attention, Randy... a number of those short-listed "offenders" escaped from life imprisonment.  How can you ensure they ALL remain behind bars, forever?  You can't, unless you execute them before they can kill again.  Indeed, it is a fault of the system... which is exactly the point, is it not?  Why do you think God Himself commanded us to take the lives of those who committed murder?  It was so they could not kill again.



Escaped? then they should have been caught and put back behind bars. I don't believe you just said god "commanded" us to kill those who have killed, that is not something I believe. Two wrongs don't make a right. The only exception I make is if say you or I kill in self defense. I mean hell, if someone is going to attack me with....whatever they have, say a knife, I'm going to do what ever it takes to preserve my own life. As for repeat offenders who have killed many people, I think it just depends how many and how sever each case was and how dangerous the individual is considered to be. 




> No, not when I am defending myself and/or others from harm.  Of course, to make sure of that, all governments would need to acknowledge the human right to self-defense and the defense of others, and would have to allow people the freedom to own the means of such defense, without infringement.  But just like our "justice" system above, that is, unfortunately, not always the case.



I actually agree with you here. Here in the UK, I could get into just as much shit for defending myself or my home, sometimes you get into even more trouble for it here. As humans we should have the right to defend our families, our homes and our selves from attackers, thieves etc. 

I am all for self defense, even if you had to kill to preserve your own life. But I am sketchy on the death penalty. I'm not gonna say I am entirely against it now, but after some thought I'll say I am more open minded. Though, to be honest I'd have more satisfaction of making the lives of repeat killers a living hell then just killing them.


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## ramsay_baggins (Oct 25, 2011)

Off topic for the second time, please try not to devolve into these kinds of things in a thread about this.

Locked.


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