# Witchiegate



## Nocturne (May 8, 2011)

So recently sciggles posted the following journal about witchiebunny leaking some info about FA to other sites:

http://i.imgur.com/dENqi.png

Which apparently Dragoneer had her take down because it "went too far."

Not to defend witchiebunny, because allegedly she's a perfectly incapable admin (just from secondhand info, no personal run-ins), but I'd just like to know why the mods have so much stuff to hide anyway and why the site seems to be operated in a similar way to an organization guarding national secrets.

Anyway it seems to me the administration of the website has a lot of trouble governing itself and even more trouble communicating with it's userbase.  I don't have much personal investment in this, but it's sort've amusing to see this apparent collapse.

I just wonder how things got so bad.


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## Volkodav (May 8, 2011)

"so if you need proof? Just go ask her or Neer"

Wouldn\t that lead to harassment towards Witchie? Whatever happened still don't change my opinion of her. She was one of the best admins on the site


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## LizardKing (May 8, 2011)

FA Drama, episode 127: The Wiggles Journal


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## CyberFoxx (May 8, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> FA Drama, episode 127: The Wiggles Journal


 
Wasn't this on last season? Aw man... It's a clip show isn't it?


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## jcfynx (May 8, 2011)

So, what, by "leaking information" are we talking about identifying information and passwords, or just gossiping about work? I don't understand.

I don't understand why there is more secrecy here than most other sites either.

Well, I do. But I'm still saying it's strange.


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## Alstor (May 8, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> So, what, by "leaking information" are we talking about identifying information and passwords, or just gossiping about work? I don't understand.


 After Witchie resigned, some people at Vivisector asked her if the allegations about Neer threatening them over the inactive admins was true. She said yes and posted some chatlogs in a private forum on that site, which she took down a week later.

Also, the inside jobs don't end there. After Sciggles made two journals on her, she became suspended. This could either be in response to call-out journals or something else...


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## Aden (May 9, 2011)

This thread was deported by someone and we had a mini-debate over what should happen, and I _think_ I'm good to bring this back. So hello again~

\long time no talk, nocky c:


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## Volkodav (May 9, 2011)

Alstor said:


> some people at Vivisector asked her if the allegations about Neer threatening them over the inactive admins was true. She said yes and posted some chatlogs in a private forum on that site, which she took down a week later.


 
Will someone please explain to me how this warrants being de-admined? That isn't TOP SEEKRIT INFURMATION, it's just "hey, yeah it's true and here's some proof"


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## Xaerun (May 9, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Will someone please explain to me how this warrants being de-admined? That isn't TOP SEEKRIT INFURMATION, it's just "hey, yeah it's true and here's some proof"


 I'll give it a crack.
It's long been an accepted staff rule from the mouth of 'Neer himself, that leaking staff chatlogs gets you removed. Period. No clauses about subject matter, nothing- leak, leave. That's just site policy and all that.


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## Gavrill (May 9, 2011)

Witchie did leak info regarding the cub porn ban before it happened if I remember correctly, not sure what else.


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## Volkodav (May 9, 2011)

Xaerun said:


> I'll give it a crack.
> It's long been an accepted staff rule from the mouth of 'Neer himself, that leaking staff chatlogs gets you removed. Period. No clauses about subject matter, nothing- leak, leave. That's just site policy and all that.


 No offense but that sounds sketchy to me


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## Xaerun (May 9, 2011)

Clayton said:


> No offense but that sounds sketchy to me


 None taken- just trying to explain why here it justifies dismissal. Although mind you, she resigned IIRC?


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## dinosaurdammit (May 9, 2011)

I imagine the fa and faf staff meeting in a dungeon , black cowls and all that jazz from the way stuff is carried out. Everything seems so cloak and dagger.


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## Azure (May 9, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I imagine the fa and faf staff meeting in a dungeon , black cowls and all that jazz from the way stuff is carried out. Everything seems so cloak and dagger.


 Dog dicks, a dirty business.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 9, 2011)

Azure said:


> Dog dicks, a dirty business.



dog dicks... What a knotty buisness to be in. 

c wat eye dud hur?


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## Verin Asper (May 9, 2011)

can I joke about that no one is allowed to talk about top secret admin stuff to others but the head admin :V


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## Azure (May 9, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> dog dicks... What a knotty buisness to be in.
> 
> c wat eye dud hur?


 It is a knotty business. One ought to keep it well within its sheath. On topic so my juicy metaphors don't get deleted, why is there such a high attrition rate for FA Admins of all kinds? It couldn't have anything to do with the people running the site, could it? :V


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## Aden (May 9, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I imagine the fa and faf staff meeting in a dungeon , black cowls and all that jazz from the way stuff is carried out. Everything seems so cloak and dagger.


 
that's really why I joined
I just wanted to have a legit reason to get a Sunn O)))-style hooded cloak


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## Xaerun (May 9, 2011)

Azure said:


> It is a knotty business. One ought to keep it well within its sheath. On topic so my juicy metaphors don't get deleted, why is there such a high attrition rate for FA Admins of all kinds? It couldn't have anything to do with the people running the site, could it? :V


 Hoho, I'd... I'd say it's having to trawl hundreds of SL pictures and other much, much worse things. There's only so- so long I can take it, man! *twitch* 5000 prims! 5000 prims! NO COPY NO MOD NO TRANS! SECURITY MANAGER! DJ! POSEBALLS! FULLY CUSTOMIZABLE! MOTION-CAPTURE ANIMATION!
PRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIMS!



Aden said:


> that's really why I joined
> I just wanted to have a legit reason to get a Sunn O)))-style hooded cloak


 Personally I just think black really shows off my figure. These skinnies I have are ~amazing~


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## ArielMT (May 9, 2011)

Xaerun said:


> None taken- just trying to explain why here it justifies dismissal. Although mind you, she resigned IIRC?



She did resign before anyone asked her to step down.



dinosaurdammit said:


> I imagine the fa and faf staff meeting in a dungeon , black cowls and all that jazz from the way stuff is carried out. Everything seems so cloak and dagger.



But dungeons are so dark and dank.  It's inconvenient as all get-out to get anything meaningful done in there.  :V

Serious answer, one of the reasons I signed on mainside was to help with the transparency bit of restoring/building confidence in FA.  The nonstop drama of the great furry soap opera makes me question the wisdom of that, though.  But aye, although we have some liberty to say in our own words what goes on behind closed doors, pasting private chat logs publicly means instant dismissal no matter how innocuous the logs.


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## Dyluck (May 9, 2011)

Alternate thread title: Witchieleaks



dinosaurdammit said:


> I imagine the fa and faf staff meeting in a dungeon , black cowls and all that jazz from the way stuff is carried out. Everything seems so cloak and dagger.


 
I imagine it more like a meeting in Doctor Evil's lair with him dropping the admins into pits of fire.


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## Smelge (May 9, 2011)

Here's my problem with this whole clusterfuck: Sciggles.

She's not listed on the forum as staff or on the Mainsite. She is not a staff member. So why is it in her journal, she's talking and acting like she is? Does relationship status now grant honorary admin status or something?


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## Charrio (May 9, 2011)

The fact the owner and admins hide so much and flip out when asked questions about stuff like where the money goes, or why did you hide things says tons in how they operate.


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## CerbrusNL (May 9, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I imagine the fa and faf staff meeting in a dungeon , black cowls and all that jazz from the way stuff is carried out. Everything seems so cloak and dagger.


 Now, imagine what all new mods must go trough, to be accepted in our ranks...
We had Corto for a reason. }


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## Diocletian (May 9, 2011)

Questions for FA/FAF staff in the light of this recent incident:

Are you happy with how FA is being managed & run and the state of its coding, features and security and are you happy to see things continue as they are now? 

How are FA's current finances and its long term financial sustainability?

Who is working on fixing the security problems, UI, etc and what is the date/deadline for when they'll be done?


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## Arshes Nei (May 9, 2011)

Smelge said:


> Here's my problem with this whole clusterfuck: Sciggles.
> 
> She's not listed on the forum as staff or on the Mainsite. She is not a staff member. So why is it in her journal, she's talking and acting like she is? Does relationship status now grant honorary admin status or something?


 
I dunno if it's even or just that. I mean, what happens when they break up or he gets on her bad side? If she's willing to do that just because of a staff member: a relationship breakup can make it messy. Just all their business out there to bash. Then if he bans her for a call out - people would jump on his case for being unfair and just would like the lulz.

Just something to ponder on for both of them. It's not my relationship, but it may be a good idea to have a mature talk with EACH OTHER, and not just "Yell at someone over a journal on the internet".

Because I'm sure this situation may happen again and especially if one gets hurt in a relationship, which fights do happen. It's how you handle them that makes a better relationship.

As far as the "resigned/fired" it's both. It was a forced resignation. 

Whether or not she was capable, the thing if it's all second hand info - I think it's better getting first hand. Just saying. 
What I do know is that there are people who will follow their leaders and have the same behavior. It happens enough at my workplace. I had a co worker that was nearly unbearable to work with because who she worked under. Funny, when that person left, my co worker was much easier to deal with. I believe the same for FA.


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## Charrio (May 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I dunno if it's even or just that. I mean, what happens when they break up or he gets on her bad side? If she's willing to do that just because of a staff member: a relationship breakup can make it messy.
> 
> Because I'm sure this situation may happen again and especially if one gets hurt in a relationship, which fights do happen. It's how you handle them that makes a better relationship.
> 
> It happens enough at my workplace. I had a co worker that was nearly unbearable to work with because who she worked under. Funny, when that person left, my co worker was much easier to deal with. I believe the same for FA.


 
Wouldn't it be a much better idea if Admins weren't allowed to date another Admin? Just so these kind of things don't happen??

Just saying, cause it's been proven to be a workplace killer and for furries i assume it's 10 times worse.


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## LizardKing (May 9, 2011)

Charrio said:


> Wouldn't it be a much better idea if Admins weren't allowed to date another Admin? Just so these kind of things don't happen??
> 
> Just saying, cause it's been proven to be a workplace killer and for furries i assume it's 10 times worse.


 
A) That is an absurd thing to (try to) enforce on a website
B) Sciggles isn't an admin


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## Aden (May 9, 2011)

Man, I gotta imagine that being the owner of one of the biggest hives of drama on the internet has to be hard on relationships


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## Charrio (May 9, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> A) That is an absurd thing to (try to) enforce on a website
> B) Sciggles isn't an admin


 
True, too bad it's not that easy


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## Aden (May 9, 2011)

Charrio said:


> Admins and close inner friends can be just as bad as another admin if they are close to others in the elite circle where the other admins play away from us normal users.


 
wha


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## Charrio (May 9, 2011)

Aden said:


> wha


 
I made no sense lol, never mind. 
Not awake yet


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## Accountability (May 9, 2011)

The logs Witchie was giving to Vivisector were nothing most people on this site would be remotely interested in. After the initial stuff about Dragoneer threatening staff members (which was posted and at least alluded to on FAF), the other logs mostly were how they were handling things like the DDoS from early March, and discussion about the members of Vivisector. That was about it.

Sciggles doesn't know the full story (something she's always telling everyone to do before they say something negative about Dragoneer), like the time Vivisector found that Dax's password to the database server and the database backup server was leaked in the December notes leak and still worked three months later. Witchie was in Vivisector IRC when that happened and immediately brought that to Yak and net-cat's attention and was able to solve that problem before malicious entities discovered it. _Obviously_ she was trying to take down FA the whole time. 

So there you have it. Witchie was fired because she was leaking unimportant generally technical-related logs to Vivisector, who in turn agreed not to distribute them further. Sciggles part about "Encyclopedia Dramatica" is a total fabrication, and at no point was the site at any risk (well, until that password was changed, at least, but that's another story). It's also highly hypocritical of Dragoneer to be acting this way, seeing how deeply he was involved with Watch Your Step (Leaking alternate identities of FA users is a violation of the Privacy part of the ToS). 

And the rest, as they say, is history.

EDIT: And yes, Sciggles needs to tone it down a few notches. She's becoming a backseat admin, and her attitude is detrimental to the site and it's community.


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## Volkodav (May 9, 2011)

Xaerun said:


> These skinnies I have are ~amazing~


Requesting photographic proof to confirm this rumor


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## Arshes Nei (May 9, 2011)

Correct, she didn't leak info to ED. 

My personal view and its the same thing I'd say to their faces and have said.

To complain about her leaking info when she was encouraged to do the same by the head back in the days FD2, I'm puzzled. It came to a point where it was hypocritical and was asked to stop. It just set a double standard of behavior. So yes, that's understandable to be upset with Witchie though I felt the encouragement of this came from Neer because both were posting there. 

Admins were also asked to stop posting on other sites too. But I had warned it was probably too late by then. You set it up where it looked like a game of favorites of who can leak what.  "Why did you keep this admin around, when X said something less innocuous and you're yelling at them?"

I had my problems with Witchie, no doubt. She could be over emotional too. That came to a head when we had another over-emotional admin butting heads to the point, she was also spreading false information to others about Witchie.

It's not so much that I don't believe in transparency but I also believe in moderation. If you're going to have a "no leak" policy make it fair. If you're going to have transparency, also make it fair.

You're gonna have your girlfriend, boyfriend, significant other, penis cozy of the moment defend you...fine but that person should be supportive, and not where it aggravates other staff members. I don't know Sciggles, and I don't care to - but it very much aggravates me that she gets to put herself in a spokeshole position when others have been punished for less. The banning was fair. Not easy, but fair.


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## Accountability (May 10, 2011)

A one day ban? Seriously?

_Seriously?_ I've seen people banned for a month for "harassment" before. Really? A day? _Really?_ You CANNOT say there is not special treatment going on here.


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## Smelge (May 10, 2011)

Accountability said:


> A one day ban? Seriously?
> 
> _Seriously?_ I've seen people banned for a month for "harassment" before. Really? A day? _Really?_ You CANNOT say there is not special treatment going on here.


 
You really can not say there isn't special treatment. You'll get banned.


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## Verin Asper (May 10, 2011)

so in other words Sciggles pulled a First Lady, or currently a "Mrs. Obama"
as in "why the heck are you talking when it seems to involve admins and probably should not be let in the open"


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## Lobar (May 10, 2011)

Hey, anyone else think that _both_ Witchie and Dragoneer suck for their respective actions?  I mean it's far from a one-or-the-other thing here.


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## kayfox (May 10, 2011)

I started to write a reply to that huge arsed thread in the "Oops...." journal, but it got yanked and well, my reply got long and shit, so its now over at http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2330574/ and all that.

I honestly think that is both bad that the situation has grown so bad to reach this point, and that the reaction to the situation it to make it even worse by making every internal action within this organization so secret nothing can be discussed and nothing can be done.  Im really sick of the reaction of the admins to discussion of real problems not even involving this drama is to distance themselves from those doing the discussion and avert their ears, what exactly is going on here?  Are we becoming some sort of cult where anyone who speaks ill of our idol is shunned.  Really, come on?


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## Arshes Nei (May 10, 2011)

Well since Sciggles hid and deleted replies. I want to reiterate something I posted in her journal.
Witchie can't de-admin herself because she's been put in the undeletable users. I also tried to de-admin her. I messaged and stated a few times requesting technical staff to remove her from undeletable so we can de-admin her. My requests were ignored.

Basically it was brought up in Sciggles journal now deleted. Witchie replied she couldn't de-admin herself. Sciggles hid the comment. So rather than an honest reply, it was hidden. 

I also haven't heard if Sciggles apologized to Witchie about lying. Because that's exactly what she did by posting that journal and hiding comments. She could have allowed the corrections to the situation to be made. She instead hid comments.


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## Ben (May 10, 2011)

Lobar said:


> Hey, anyone else think that _both_ Witchie and Dragoneer suck for their respective actions?  I mean it's far from a one-or-the-other thing here.


 
Sciggles, Dragoneer, and Witchie. I think it's important to remember that no one is ever entirely right about something, and that everyone is wrong to some degree. It really shouldn't be surprising that the girlfriend of the website owner would get special treatment-- it's more or less that she abuses that privilege. 

As for the whole leaking information thing-- While this isn't a government institution or anything, it's still a clear violation of the site owner's trust to share things that came from private forums/passworded chatrooms/one-on-one chats. Dragoneer sort of did the same thing with WYS, but then the question comes up of why you'd want to be an admin on a site where the head admin doesn't follow his own rules. It's all just a really bad clusterfuck.


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## Verin Asper (May 10, 2011)

Ben said:


> Sciggles, Dragoneer, and Witchie. I think it's important to remember that no one is ever entirely right about something, and that everyone is wrong to some degree. It really shouldn't be surprising that the girlfriend of the website owner would get special treatment-- it's more or less that she abuses that privilege.
> 
> As for the whole leaking information thing-- While this isn't a government institution or anything, it's still a clear violation of the site owner's trust to share things that came from private forums/passworded chatrooms/one-on-one chats. Dragoneer sort of did the same thing with WYS, but then the question comes up of why you'd want to be an admin on a site where the head admin doesn't follow his own rules. It's all just a really bad clusterfuck.


I mainly think it should of probably stayed between the 3 of em, if not just a simple thing stating that Witchie isnt an admin on the site. It just got out of hand between mainly Witchie and Sciggles

 To answer that second part though, its simple "To do something for/about this site" May it to improve it or assist on easing the work flow. Just the small few would go "for the status".


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## Arshes Nei (May 10, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> I mainly think it should of probably stayed between the 3 of em, if not just a simple thing stating that Witchie isnt an admin on the site. It just got out of hand between mainly Witchie and Sciggles


 
I disagree a bit.

Witchie is correct about keeping it quiet. It was a quiet decision shared amongst those who needed to know. When it happened she came forward to me and told me the story. When I was on the chat Neer confirmed it was mutual and he holds no hard feelings because she was straight forward.

A bit later this clusterfuck (so aptly described) happens. Later with Neer then saying something different than when it first went down and Sciggles posting her journal.

The main problems was while Witchie made that mistake, she was right about keeping it quiet. Someone not only decided to poison the well with that journal, but seeing Neer's statements later...it now makes sense.

Sciggles needs to stay out of site matters.

As for the comment that was hidden. I have screencapped.






http://i56.tinypic.com/292bneu.jpg

I don't see why that needed to be hidden at all. The comment hidden was Witchie's comment on how she couldn't de-admin herself on the forums.

lol at "I has been" (I meant IT has been) but oh well.


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## Alstor (May 10, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I don't see why that needed to be hidden at all. The comment hidden was Witchie's comment on how she couldn't de-admin herself on the forums.


I could just be bringing up conspiracies, but I think that there's a chance that someone told her to hide it. It could be exposing a technical fault in the software (which it actually is.) If that's true, why is the staff or tech staff still talking to Sciggles when they aren't fixing the actual problem at hand?


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## LizardKing (May 10, 2011)

Alstor said:


> I could just be bringing up conspiracies, but I think that there's a chance that someone told her to hide it. It could be exposing a technical fault in the software (which it actually is.) If that's true, why is the staff or tech staff still talking to Sciggles when they aren't fixing the actual problem at hand?


 
I suspect that's a technical _fix_, not a fault, added after what happened in December, where a single account removed admin status from everyone else. Presumably this fix was to simply remove that option from some/all users except those with direct access, to prevent a rogue admin from removing everyone else from power. Though this would also mean rogue admins can't be prevented from running amok until one of those same people do it themselves.

I could be wrong of course :3

Edit: I just realised that was in reference to forum admins, not FA admins. Entirely different process. Disregard that. It could still make sense, but not in the way I intented.


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## Arshes Nei (May 10, 2011)

Alstor said:


> I could just be bringing up conspiracies, but I think that there's a chance that someone told her to hide it. It could be exposing a technical fault in the software (which it actually is.) If that's true, why is the staff or tech staff still talking to Sciggles when they aren't fixing the actual problem at hand?


 
No Lizardking is correct, it's not a technical fault. It's something the people with back-end access need to fix. She's part of the undeletable users. When they are removed from staff, it's the technical staff's responsibility to remove people from that file. That's why I asked several times for her to be removed from it and it was ignored. I did it the day, and day after she resigned.

Anyone with a vbulletin or has run them long enough know about this: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php/208636-How-do-you-make-a-user-undeletable

Because it leads to the 2nd point. If someone told her to hide it, why did they not follow through and get it corrected?


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## Verin Asper (May 10, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> No Lizardking is correct, it's not a technical fault. It's something the people with back-end access need to fix. She's part of the undeletable users. When they are removed from staff, it's the technical staff's responsibility to remove people from that file. That's why I asked several times for her to be removed from it and it was ignored. I did it the day, and day after she resigned.
> 
> Because it leads to the 2nd point. If someone told her to hide it, why did they not follow through and get it corrected?


 its probably was hidden as after Witchie wasnt an admin no longer this probably was deem irrelevant.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 10, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> its probably was hidden as after Witchie wasnt an admin no longer this probably was deem irrelevant.


 
Maybe for the drama factor.

Honestly I don't get drama- what is the point. It's stupid and for some it causes stress. STRESS IS BAD IT MAKES BOWEL MOVEMENTS BAD ]:C

As for Neer's girl, why does she have so much pull? Granted it is an art site and not a real business; however, why would anyone want to donate to something with such opaque windows of transparency, deceit, backstabbery and all out lies. That's like a homeless shelter asking for donations to buy mace to keep the homeless away. Defeats the purpose if you ask me.


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## Witchiebunny (May 10, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> its probably was hidden as after Witchie wasnt an admin no longer this probably was deem irrelevant.


 
I was still a forum admin when the comment was hidden, and shortly thereafter I was blocked by Sciggles from participating in the discussion. (though that could be in retaliation to me blocking her after the nasty note she sent me regarding the situation)

I won't even try to pretend what I did wasn't wrong and despite Sciggles claims, I NEVER claimed I was the victim, just that I would have to deal with the consequences of my actions and that I didn't get off Scott free from the entire situation. I DO suck for what I did, I'll acknowledge that any day of the week. I was wrong and I don't actually expect any sympathy. Anyone who wants to hear the full story from this end is welcome to message me, and I will be honest.


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## Arshes Nei (May 10, 2011)

The whole situation reminds me of some nosy yenta whose husband complains about work problems and she feels it her business to call up the employees and former employees to harass them about his complaints.

Utterly uncalled for.

Good thing we're just unpaid volunteers.


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## Witchiebunny (May 10, 2011)

I'm more interested in why it was Sciggles' business to begin with. Since I've now apparently "lost the right to talk to Dragoneer" (his words), whereas before he held no ill will as I was upfront and honest. I'd like to know why someone else is making up his mind about his business.   I'm also interested in why it took someone being called out publicly again for my deadmining to get done forum side.

There's more I could say but in the interest in being the only person apparently interested in being respectful in this situation (in as much as I can, seeing as I initially caused it) I will be quiet. God knows I dont need to give anyone a reason to ban me mainside.


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## Aden (May 10, 2011)

Anyone else find it funny that we're taking issues with someone that we refer to as "Sciggles" so seriously? I feel silly talking about it.


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## Smelge (May 10, 2011)

Is it at all possible that we could have people in charge of the site acting and behaving like real people?

Because this shit is getting fucking retarded.


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## Arshes Nei (May 10, 2011)

Smelge said:


> Is it at all possible that we could have people in charge of the site acting and behaving like real people?
> 
> Because this shit is getting fucking retarded.


 
You're expecting a site that everyone complains is full of furry porn to be run by "real people" by real ...I'm assuming sane 

Aden, yeah but I didn't choose that name XD


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## Volkodav (May 10, 2011)

Smelge said:


> Is it at all possible that we could have people in charge of the site acting and behaving like real people?
> 
> Because this shit is getting fucking retarded.


 Haha good luck


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## Smelge (May 10, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> You're expecting a site that everyone complains is full of furry porn to be run by "real people" by real ...I'm assuming sane


 
It's not that difficult. Keep personal drama away from the place, act like you actually give a shit about the place. FA at the moment is like one of those shitty comedy films that has no value, except as a vehicle to push the lead comedian forward a little.


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## Arshes Nei (May 10, 2011)

Smelge said:


> It's not that difficult. Keep personal drama away from the place, act like you actually give a shit about the place. FA at the moment is like one of those shitty comedy films that has no value, except as a vehicle to push the lead comedian forward a little.


 
You're still asking a lot for a site that is a money pit and considered a scourge.

He does care about the site but the difference is everyone has different goals. Depending on your level of involvement no site is entirely drama free either even with the administrators. I noticed the more people are involved or invested the more you'll find drama.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 10, 2011)

So what does Skiggles get out of all this drama shit storm? A laugh? What did she hope to gain?


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## Fay V (May 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> So what does Skiggles get out of all this drama shit storm? A laugh? What did she hope to gain?


 I assume "protecting" neer. 
I do think Neer cares. I also think that he isn't a very good administrator. He deeply cares, but the people around him easily sway him, he wants to make others happy and his decisions reflect that over the more logical option of the time. This is the impression I get, It doesn't help that everything, even the most simple administrative things are shrouded in mystery. It also doesn't help that it feels like those around him and close, like sciggles, are getting this information when they probably shouldn't.
Sciggles personality seems to be one where she does take information she hears from neer and wants to take it into her own hands, and she is popular enough as an artist that she'll summon the furfag masses...


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## Verin Asper (May 10, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> I'm more interested in why it was Sciggles' business to begin with. Since I've now apparently "lost the right to talk to Dragoneer" (his words), whereas before he held no ill will as I was upfront and honest. I'd like to know why someone else is making up his mind about his business.   I'm also interested in why it took someone being called out publicly again for my deadmining to get done forum side.
> 
> There's more I could say but in the interest in being the only person apparently interested in being respectful in this situation (in as much as I can, seeing as I initially caused it) I will be quiet. God knows I dont need to give anyone a reason to ban me mainside.


 Again, shes pulling a "Mrs. Obama"


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 10, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> Again, shes pulling a "Mrs. Obama"


 
I don't find her an exceptionally amazing artist, sure her art is good- better than anything I could ever do but I think the main reason she is popular is because of neer. People are like ZOMG NEERS GURL DREW THIZ!


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## Fay V (May 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I don't find her an exceptionally amazing artist, sure her art is good- better than anything I could ever do but I think the main reason she is popular is because of neer. People are like ZOMG NEERS GURL DREW THIZ!


 She's alright, she's popular because she streams and draws porn, she was popular before neer then got a big burst with neer. personally I think she's starting to hurt herself artistically though. I don't see her really improving and her stuff looks sort of...samey now.


----------



## Aden (May 10, 2011)

Am I the only one who thinks her art is excruciatingly mediocre


----------



## Smelge (May 10, 2011)

Aden said:


> Am I the only one who thinks her art is excruciatingly mediocre


 
Oh damn. You were an ok Mod as well.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 10, 2011)

Aden said:


> Am I the only one who thinks her art is excruciatingly mediocre


 
Someone I know commissioned her- to be honest I was like "eh, ok". To me her style is that of over half of all furrie artist.


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## Fay V (May 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Someone I know commissioned her- to be honest I was like "eh, ok". To me her style is that of over half of all furrie artist.


 Myeah. I think of her style as a lot like mine in many ways, but I guess that why I see her as not growing at all. I'd be more impressed if she actually grew as an artist.


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## Smelge (May 10, 2011)

Fay V said:


> Myeah. I think of her style as a lot like mine in many ways, but I guess that why I see her as not growing at all. I'd be more impressed if she actually grew as an artist.


 
Her ego certainly has.


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## Verin Asper (May 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I don't find her an exceptionally amazing artist, sure her art is good- better than anything I could ever do but I think the main reason she is popular is because of neer. People are like ZOMG NEERS GURL DREW THIZ!


 they were popular before, cause of porn like Fay said, just now her man is someone with power. Just like Mrs. Obama you sometimes going "wait...why is she in this business"


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## Draconas (May 10, 2011)

Lemme get this straight.... witchie leaks boring and unuseful information and sciggles calls her out for it, sciggles journal is taken down and suspended for a day, only a day after harassing another user and an at-the-time admin, and possibly sucked `neers cock to get special treatment. witchie then resigns and turns out couldn't get removed due to the FAleaks incident and a safeguard done shortly after wards, then someone who could was ordered to remove her from admin status?

If im spot on, then this isn't really anything interesting, seems like shit this big happens all the time, and, this is my $0.02, sciggles shouldn't have gotten (almost) away with harassment.


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## Volkodav (May 10, 2011)

I thought we were talking about how Witchie was fired or something and how Sciggles was being a backseat mod and not art skill?!?!


----------



## jcfynx (May 10, 2011)

Have you considered the possibility that maybe you are all gay ??? Just wondering. Thanks.


----------



## Aden (May 10, 2011)

Draconas said:


> Lemme get this straight.... witchie leaks boring and unuseful information and sciggles calls her out for it, sciggles journal is taken down and suspended for a day, only a day after harassing another user and an at-the-time admin, and possibly sucked `neers cock to get special treatment.


 
you are a very angry person


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## Verin Asper (May 10, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I thought we were talking about how Witchie was fired or something and how Sciggles was being a backseat mod and not art skill?!?!


 cause were wondering what popularity Sciggles have to be able to do such a thing.


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## Volkodav (May 10, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> cause were wondering what popularity Sciggles have to be able to do such a thing.


 It's still not cool to rag on art skill


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## jcfynx (May 10, 2011)

Don't "like" my posts like we're friends, Aden, I see what you all say about me in private. ~.~


----------



## Volkodav (May 10, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Don't "like" my posts like we're friends, Aden, I see what you all say about me in private. ~.~


"This" just means you agree with what the person's saying instead of saying "YEAH I AGREE WITH JCFYNX"


----------



## Aden (May 10, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Don't "like" my posts like we're friends, Aden, I see what you all say about me in private. ~.~


 
We're...we're not friends? D:
when did this happen :c


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## Verin Asper (May 11, 2011)

Clayton said:


> It's still not cool to rag on art skill


 I said popularity, not art ability :V


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## Accountability (May 11, 2011)

Nice to see this being swept under the rug and ignored by the higher-ups as usual. You know, ignoring things isn't working, and every time another one of these events happen that bring the administration's actions and biases to light, more and more people are going to notice.


----------



## Ben (May 11, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Nice to see this being swept under the rug and ignored by the higher-ups as usual. You know, ignoring things isn't working, and every time another one of these events happen that bring the administration's actions and biases to light, more and more people are going to notice.


 
Not that you don't seem to be an incredibly smart individual, but I think by this point, it's just not worth yours or anyone else's time to hold FA accountable for the things that happen around here. There is a fundamental thing wrong with the site that cannot possibly be fixed, the heiarchy of leadership, and I think we'd all do good to just let FA die, and just allow a different site to give it a go. I appreciate how right you've been about some things, but at a point you have to stop and go "is it really worth the effort?" And I can't really say it is.


----------



## Fay V (May 11, 2011)

Dude Clayton, chill out. People were talking about sciggles, she is known as an artist, her art was assessed. No one said she was a terrible blight on all humanity and should die. I don't even recall anyone saying she is that bad. The worst thing said was that she is mediocre. A lot of what is said is that her art is a bit samey, very similar to other furry styles, and she draws porn. boo fucking hoo. all of that is easily fixed in terms of art, and most of her issues are just from her attitude towards art. 
Yeah it's bad to straight rag on an artist's skill, everyone can improve, but don't blow a casket every time other people are assessing someone's art and don't just have purely positive notes to say.


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 11, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Nice to see this being swept under the rug and ignored by the higher-ups as usual. You know, ignoring things isn't working, and every time another one of these events happen that bring the administration's actions and biases to light, more and more people are going to notice.


 
It would be nice of Neer and Sciggles apologized publicly to Witchie. He basically went back on his word with Witchie, and however short, Sciggles went on a campaign smear with false allegations. That's my opinion. I had really thought Neer was gonna be the bigger person on this but I guess not, that's what's so disappointing. It's not that Witchie was innocent she wasn't - but it was the agreement and behavior from Neer and Sciggles that irritates me more because this just shows why there are staff members that burn bridges.


----------



## Volkodav (May 11, 2011)

Fay V said:


> Dude Clayton, chill out. People were talking about sciggles, she is known as an artist, her art was assessed. No one said she was a terrible blight on all humanity and should die. I don't even recall anyone saying she is that bad. The worst thing said was that she is mediocre. A lot of what is said is that her art is a bit samey, very similar to other furry styles, and she draws porn. boo fucking hoo. all of that is easily fixed in terms of art, and most of her issues are just from her attitude towards art.
> Yeah it's bad to straight rag on an artist's skill, everyone can improve, but don't blow a casket every time other people are assessing someone's art and don't just have purely positive notes to say.


 Ooops my bad, I thought we were talking about the admins being lame and not how well ___ draws. I just wanted to get the subject back on topic B)


----------



## Smelge (May 11, 2011)

Wait, so if character assassination is A-ok with Dragoneer, let's all get in on it.

I can't see how that could possibly go wrong.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 11, 2011)

Honestly I think neer and sciggles need to issue a public apology to everyone. I mean lets face WB was an admin/mod and he treated the whole thing very badly. It reflects on his treatment of regular users. Hell if he would leave her to the wolves and not reprimand sciggles like he should have that says a lot about him as a person. Whole situation was very immature on his and sciggles part.


----------



## Witchiebunny (May 11, 2011)

You know, I was thinking about something. Sciggles wasn't privy to any of the details of what transpired between Dragoneer and I when it happened (and by happy coincidence, I realized my computer logs ALL AIM conversations, meaning I have a record of our initial conversation). So where did she get the false allegations from? Only one person was available to tell her what happened, and it certainly wasn't me.

I can tell you all right now, I'm not expecting a sincere apology. 

Oh if there's enough outcry, Dragoneer MIGHT come out one day in the future and apologize to me publicly. But I very much doubt it would be sincere. As for leaving me to the wolves, that's not exactly uncommon, if you'll recall the cases of Eevee, Arcturus, Allan, Arcana, Chase, the list goes on and on. If you hold your worth in the fandom by the court of public opinion, you naturally expect others to do the same, and so when the worst thing that can happen to you in your view is being left to the wolves in the midst of drama....well you see where this is going.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 11, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> You know, I was thinking about something. Sciggles wasn't privy to any of the details of what transpired between Dragoneer and I when it happened (and by happy coincidence, I realized my computer logs ALL AIM conversations, meaning I have a record of our initial conversation). So where did she get the false allegations from? Only one person was available to tell her what happened, and it certainly wasn't me.



and the plot thickens...

/insert dramatic gopher-groundhog creature 
Dun dun dunnnnn


----------



## Smelge (May 11, 2011)

ITT: Witchie gets shit for leaking information, Dragoneer leaks information to his close friends.


----------



## Witchiebunny (May 11, 2011)

Smelge said:


> ITT: Witchie gets shit for leaking information, Dragoneer leaks information to his close friends.


 
or through them. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## Smelge (May 11, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> or through them.
> 
> Just sayin'.


 
Oh that's ok. That makes it fine.


----------



## Verin Asper (May 11, 2011)

I'm just more worried that in the future Sciggles will be pulling more "Mrs Obama" Moments


----------



## Decker (May 11, 2011)

I don't care bout the drama, or the allegations, or who's responsible, or who said what, or whose fault this is or when this happened, or (for you special folks that decided to discuss it,) how well Sciggles can draw.

I care that *we* lost an admin that answered a lot of tickets!

I have to go and mourn.


----------



## Fay V (May 11, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Ooops my bad, I thought we were talking about the admins being lame and not how well ___ draws. I just wanted to get the subject back on topic B)


no, you wanted to tell people off because "ragging" on artists isn't cool. You never mentioned topic, you told people off for discussing art. Don't try to look like the good guy because you over react when someone doesn't say nice things about artists. Especially when again, most of the issue is her attitude, and that is pertinent to the topic. 

As for the topic at hand, I don't know what we can expect. We know that neer isn't a good admin. He is too easily swayed by personal feelings or trying to make those around him happy. We know Sciggles is trying to put herself in a position of power through her popularity gained from art (hurr) and through the added boost she gets in association with neer. Sciggles has no reason to act in the best way for FA, she isn't staff, Neer is too easily swayed to really stop her. So in the end this will end up as another one of those things until he either breaks up with her, or the community gets so pissed that he tosses Sciggles to the wolves as well.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 11, 2011)

Fay V said:


> . So in the end this will end up as another one of those things until he either breaks up with her, or the *community gets so pissed that he tosses Sciggles to the wolves as well.*


 
Fay later check the FAFA thread- the image I got out of this was quite funny... though nsfw.

I think she should have about a months suspension for causing that much stuff to be brought up. My grandmother has a funny saying "An outhouse is fine and good all until you stir it with a stick." In other words as I apply this awesomely old saying to FA- Fa is a shit hole at the moment with a lot of problems both technical and staff related though is fine until someone stirs shit up.


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## Arshes Nei (May 11, 2011)

I think a month suspension is overkill at this time. The reason is the journal was only up for a very short time, despite the fact people screencapped it - which is why it blew up. She should apologize to Witchie publicly though. Not that bs. "oops my bad".

She should have had a longer suspension though. It's too late now though. 

I think that other call out journal should have been removed, she set a bad trend doing that.


----------



## Volkodav (May 11, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Oh if there's enough outcry, Dragoneer MIGHT come out one day in the future and apologize to me publicly.


 
I wouldn't hold your breath. Remember the account-jacking of December?


----------



## Charrio (May 11, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Honestly I think neer and sciggles need to issue a public apology to everyone. I mean lets face WB was an admin/mod and he treated the whole thing very badly. It reflects on his treatment of regular users. Hell if he would leave her to the wolves and not reprimand sciggles like he should have that says a lot about him as a person. Whole situation was very immature on his and sciggles part.


 
I really don't think Dragoneer cares about normal users, unless your famous or a personal friend, and even then i don't think he cares much about his personal friends as well. 
He sounds from what i have read here like one of those guys who will bend over backward for his girlfriend and forgetting his regular friends in the process, I've lost many a friend to a controlling manipulative partner. 

I say he's now Mrs Dragoneer while he is dating, and will always be influenced by his partner.


----------



## Smelge (May 11, 2011)

The way I see it, FA is like a really big sandbox, and Dragoneer and his close friends are really big cats.

People can come and play in their sandbox, but in the end, they'll get crapped on by the giant cats, because they don't matter. All the time, the sandbox is getting more full of shit, and nobody big enough to scoop it all out seems willing to. As long as there's a steady supply of people to shit on, everything is fine.


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## Oly (May 11, 2011)

Smelge and Decker: Both of you, yes, completely.

I certainly know I'm not gonna give any money to a site that's run like this. Fuckin' joke. Reminds me of a bunch of 10 year olds having dramaz, except they're adults and on the internet.


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## Accountability (May 11, 2011)

Smelge said:


> The way I see it, FA is like a really big sandbox, and Dragoneer and his close friends are really big cats.
> 
> People can come and play in their sandbox, but in the end, they'll get crapped on by the giant cats, because they don't matter. All the time, the sandbox is getting more full of shit, and nobody big enough to scoop it all out seems willing to. As long as there's a steady supply of people to shit on, everything is fine.



And when people offer to clean out the shit, they themselves get shat on.


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## Draconas (May 12, 2011)

Accountability said:


> And when people offer to clean out the shit, they themselves get shat on.


 
Generic "this!" comment due to the button being broke.


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## Icky (May 12, 2011)

Draconas said:


> Generic "this!" comment due to the button being broke.


 
okay

the point of that convienent button

is so _you don't fucking do this_


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## Draconas (May 12, 2011)

Icky said:


> okay
> 
> the point of that convienent button
> 
> is so _you don't fucking do this_


 
missed the part where I said "comment due to the button being broke."?


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## Aden (May 12, 2011)

okay guys, don't make a 20-post off-topic argument about the "this" button

Draconas, if the "this" button isn't working, you're going to need to add some more content to your "this" posts


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## Rossyfox (May 12, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> I'm just more worried that in the future Sciggles will be pulling more "Mrs Obama" Moments


 
Is she going to start a program to improve our diets like the real Mrs Obama? Because the fandom could really use some of that.


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## Corto (May 12, 2011)

She'll plant vegetables on FA.


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## Volkodav (May 12, 2011)

Corto said:


> She'll plant vegetables on FA.


 Lmfao what. This is srs the strangest post


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## Verin Asper (May 13, 2011)

Rossyfox said:


> Is she going to start a program to improve our diets like the real Mrs Obama? Because the fandom could really use some of that.


 wouldnt work cause hardly everyone watches her :V


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## ArielMT (May 13, 2011)

I still don't know what to make of this whole mess.  I feel like the only ones who did any right in all this are among those who did wrong in all this, too.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> I still don't know what to make of this whole mess.  I feel like the only ones who did any right in all this are among those who did wrong in all this, too.


 
Let's just say fuck it all and get drunk. Booze solves everything after all :V


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## Accountability (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Let's just say fuck it all and get drunk. Booze solves everything after all :V


 
That's what Dragoneer said to Witchie and then Sciggles worked her magic and manipulated him into this mess.

Watch out, she'll come for you next!


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## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

Accountability said:


> That's what Dragoneer said to Witchie and then Sciggles worked her magic and manipulated him into this mess.
> 
> Watch out, she'll come for you next!



go ahead let her try. I fucking pushed a child through my snatch with no medication- I think I can handle someone named sciggles.


----------



## Volkodav (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> go ahead let her try. I fucking pushed a child through my snatch with no medication- I think I can handle someone named sciggles.


 Sig-worthy


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## Arshes Nei (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Let's just say fuck it all and get drunk. Booze solves everything after all :V


 
Actually booze caused some of the problems.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Actually booze caused some of the problems.


 
FOR FUCKS SAKE IS NOTHING SACRED!


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## ArielMT (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> FOR FUCKS SAKE IS NOTHING SACRED!


 
Honesty and ethical integrity, but oh is it so impossibly difficult to maintai-- Wait, I'm a member of staff so by association I automatically have as little as the least of us no matter how much I have personally.  What did I do with my Morgan?  Wait, no, that's the wrong answer, too.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> Honesty and ethical integrity, but oh is it so impossibly difficult to maintai-- Wait, I'm a member of staff so by association I automatically have as little as the least of us no matter how much I have personally.  What did I do with my Morgan?  Wait, no, that's the wrong answer, too.


 
Morgan yes, that is the wrong answer. Try my family's pineapple moonshine. It taste like pineapple, liquid propane, and can turn a tractor into a drag racer. That HAS to solve some problems.


----------



## Witchiebunny (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Morgan yes, that is the wrong answer. Try my family's pineapple moonshine. It taste like pineapple, liquid propane, and can turn a tractor into a drag racer. That HAS to solve some problems.


 
You know, now I really want some.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> You know, now I really want some.


 
If drinkin' it don't solve 'yer problems, using it as a molotov cocktail sure will.


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## ArielMT (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> If drinkin' it don't solve 'yer problems, using it as a molotov cocktail sure will.


 
As expensive as gasoline is today, are you crazy?  That stuff's going into my car!


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> As expensive as gasoline is today, are you crazy? That stuff's going into my car!



prepare for your car to blow out blue flames and sound like a dragon's lower gi tract after some boss Mexican food.


----------



## Verin Asper (May 13, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Actually booze caused some of the problems.


 and more booze tend to fix it


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 13, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> and more booze tend to fix it


 
Yeah wishful thinking. If I'm drinking I tend to stay away from places where I have to work volunteer or otherwise so I don't do stupid things like "yell at staff" then blame it on the al-alc-alca-co-hol.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

I raise my glass to the staff that are not asshats. I shall take my first drink in over a year. Witchie, arshies, and Ariel here is to you.


----------



## Rossyfox (May 13, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> Honesty and ethical integrity, but oh is it so impossibly difficult to maintai-- Wait, I'm a member of staff so by association I automatically have as little as the least of us no matter how much I have personally.  What did I do with my Morgan?  Wait, no, that's the wrong answer, too.




Guilt by association isn't a fallacy if it's an association with a group you're actively assisting :3


----------



## Aden (May 13, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> go ahead let her try. I fucking pushed a child through my snatch with no medication- I think I can handle someone named sciggles.


 
Ahahaha this is great, ilu


----------



## Runefox (May 13, 2011)

I don't think I'm going to get involved in the catfight, but I'd like to say something anyway. In particular, to the people who appear to be outraged that this kind of thing happens (ON *YOUR* FA?! MOAR LIEKLY TAHN U TINK!)

To make a long story short, people not directly involved in the drama are astonished that the people in charge (and those close to them) do whatever they want (one way or another) on a furry website on the internets, call it corruption, and in a week's time (or less!), forget all about it despite their supposed outrage because there's no other game in town and GODDAMMIT WE NEEDS TEH PORNZ

Seriously, it's a website, not a government agency. There IS no accountability beyond the site's rules, which are set forth by the people who own the site. Honesty and integrity are great, don't get me wrong, but frankly (and not to defend any part of what's happened/happening, but to try and dispell some of the outrage), as far as I'm aware, nobody is under any particular obligation to act with any grace, and the only people who have a say in that are the people in charge, not the users of the site. It's not a democracy by any means.

In other words, it's really not anyone's business but those involved.


----------



## Accountability (May 13, 2011)

Runefox said:


> In other words, it's really not anyone's business but those involved.



Hello that's why we're where we are today. Sciggles *is not* an administrator (unsurprisingly, several people seem to think otherwise!) and therefore _*should not*_ have been involved in this site matter one way or another. It wasn't anyone else's business until Sciggles decided to make it everyone's business, and in the process caused this mess. 

As for the old clichÃ© of "Dragoneer owns the site so he can do what he wants!", yes that's nice that his name is on the articles of incorporation, but in reality it's the community that owns the site. The community that paid the bills (up until several poor choices were made). The community that donated $16,000 so FA could buy servers. FA wouldn't be here if it weren't for the generosity of the community, and Dragoneer should feel _obligated_ to treat them with respect and give them what they want.

In the end, he doesn't care. It's quite obvious that he doesn't. And that's sad.


----------



## Runefox (May 13, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Hello that's why we're where we are today. Sciggles *is not* an administrator (unsurprisingly, several people seem to think otherwise!) and therefore _*should not*_ have been involved in this site matter one way or another. It wasn't anyone else's business until Sciggles decided to make it everyone's business, and in the process caused this mess.


Isn't that all the more reason to just shut up about it? 



> As for the old clichÃ© of "Dragoneer owns the site so he can do what he wants!", yes that's nice that his name is on the articles of incorporation, but in reality it's the community that owns the site.


That's not quite how it works. That is to say, that's not *at all* how it works.

And that applies especially to...



> The community that paid the bills (up until several poor choices were made). The community that *donated* $16,000 so FA could buy servers. FA wouldn't be here if it weren't for the generosity of the community, and Dragoneer should feel _obligated_ to treat them with respect and give them what they want.


The community DONATED. The community never _paid_ for anything, and frankly isn't entitled to anything. The fact of the matter is, the community doesn't give two shits about who runs FA as long as they get to social-network with their friends and look up some hyper-herms, and quite frankly, nor should they. FA is free. No matter how much is donated, that doesn't change. It isn't like trading a company's stock, where buying shares gives you a say in how it's run. No, it's *donations* you're talking about, and the very definition of a donation is a gift, not a payment. Saying anything otherwise just reeks of warrantless delusions of self-importance.



> In the end, he doesn't care. It's quite obvious that he doesn't. And that's sad.


 Nobody's stopping you from putting time and effort into making your own FA clone. But I think the point is, you see FA as something more than that, when really, it isn't. If people really were so outraged with 'Neer, Inkbunny, SoFurry and other sites would be full to the gills with refugees, but that only ever happens when (insert ban on patently illegal fetish here) happens. FA isn't "the community's" property. FA is *private* property. The community built itself *around* FA, not the other way around. The very fact that people are still here, still posting, and still arguing about whether or not FA is run by the community or the people who are legally in charge after all the "showstopping drama" that's happened over the years is more than enough proof that it isn't going anywhere regardless of what happens until someone pulls the plug. It's proof that the users and "the community" don't give a shit about who runs FA or why, what they do or how they do it, so long as they get to use the site. Hell, people still use Google, Microsoft, Apple, (especially) Sony and (insert other evil giant corporations here) products, even after all the crap they've all pulled. Point is, the customer, in this case "the community", is only interested in the products and services offered, not internal politics.


----------



## Eevee (May 13, 2011)

Runefox said:


> blah blah blah people have the right to do what they want


I don't understand why people keep bringing this up.  Yes, the administration is _able_ to do whatever it wants.  The objection is that it _ought not_ by most reasonable standards of decency and general caring-about-the-community-ness.

Why would you argue that it's _okay_ to bask in corruption and apathy just because you _can_?


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 13, 2011)

Eevee said:


> I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. Yes, the administration is _able_ to do whatever it wants. The objection is that it _ought not_ by most reasonable standards of decency and general caring-about-the-community-ness.
> 
> Why would you argue that it's _okay_ to bask in corruption and apathy just because you _can_?



why not. Car companies and banks do it :v

Also government does it therefore it must be right!


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## ArielMT (May 13, 2011)

We still owe it to the community to treat them as fairly as we can according to the rules we set.  Even without any immediate consequences for being deliberately unfair, whether it be through being overly lenient or overly heavy-handed, we still suffer the consequences of a bad reputation circulating, which discourages donations, advertising, and membership and eventually encourages alternatives to spring up and capitalize on nothing more than the simple fact that they're not us.


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## Kittycoon (May 13, 2011)

Wanna know how FA ticks? Open firebug. :3


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## Accountability (May 13, 2011)

Runefox said:


> Hell, people still use Google, Microsoft, Apple, (especially) Sony and (insert other evil giant corporations here) products, even after all the crap they've all pulled. Point is, the customer, in this case "the community", is only interested in the products and services offered, not internal politics.



The key difference between FA and a major corporation is, last I checked, Sony's response to people upset about the PSN hack isn't "Well if you don't like it go buy an Xbox!", Apple isn't saying "Well go get a Windows Phone!" to people upset about the tracking stuff, and Microsoft doesn't say "Get an iPhone then and see if we care!" to people who don't like Windows Phone. Major corporations (especially these days with Twitter and Facebook and those fun things) try to work with their customers to make everyone happy. They listen to complaints and they work with people to make things better. FA doesn't do this, FA tells you to piss off if you don't like something and that you're wrong in thinking there's better ways because "you don't know how FA works". This isn't the right way to do things, and you can't say that it is.

You can say that people don't care all you want, but I've encountered several people who are unaware with my "involvement" here who have all said basically the same thing: Dragoneer is a bad administrator and favors popular artists and friendships over the rest of the site. These are just random people.

Really, the only thing keeping people on FA is the art, and the only thing keeping artists on FA is that it's not ridiculously hard to upload (*coughInkbunnycough*). FA has very few redeeming qualities, and "friendly administration" isn't one.


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## Runefox (May 13, 2011)

Eevee said:


> I don't understand why people keep bringing this  up.  Yes, the administration is _able_ to do whatever it wants.   The objection is that it _ought not_ by most reasonable standards  of decency and general caring-about-the-community-ness.
> 
> Why would you argue that it's _okay_ to bask in corruption and apathy just because you _can_?



Oh look, it's Eevee. I'll keep this short then, because I really don't  want to get into _yet another_ war with you like we used to.

First off, I want to clear the air and say that I _agree with you_.

I'm not arguing that it's _okay_, just that it _happens_ and  demanding anything different with a sense of self-importance won't make  any difference at all, because _nobody gives a shit_. Of all the  people on FA, only a few are currently bickering about this. Of all the  people on FA, only a few are even vaguely aware of this. The only way  that any of this is going to change is if someone goes ahead and does  something about it on their own, not by bitching and whining at the  people in charge who are pulling shit they don't agree with. It's very  obvious that if things are as bad as people keep saying, they're making  their own bed. If people really gave a shit, they'd be lying in it, too,  but as yet, nobody's seriously contested it and here we have FA still  going strong after what has been seen as several "FA-killing" events  from the regular drama that happens practically every day to the  outcasting of zoophiles and cubs.



ArielMT said:


> We still owe it to the community to treat them as fairly as we can according to the rules we set.  Even without any immediate consequences for being deliberately unfair, whether it be through being overly lenient or overly heavy-handed, we still suffer the consequences of a bad reputation circulating, which discourages donations, advertising, and membership and eventually encourages alternatives to spring up and capitalize on nothing more than the simple fact that they're not us.


 
And I agree with that, too. However, what I'm saying is that whining and complaining about it won't really do much from a user's perspective, because FA's community is virtually blind to what goes on with the administration. For the most part, so am I, because I have no real reason to follow it. And especially believing things like "We donate, so we have a say" is exactly the opposite of how to effect the kind of change they want to effect. I mean, if people really cared more about the politics of FA than the actual services, then donations would have stopped long ago, but they haven't. Shouldn't that be enough to prove that that line of thinking just won't work here? Why should an owner or admin listen to someone complaining about the way things are run when the majority of people out there don't really care one way or another? It's just not the way to get the message across.



Accountability said:


> The key difference between FA and a major  corporation is, last I checked, Sony's response to people upset about  the PSN hack isn't "Well if you don't like it go buy an Xbox!", Apple  isn't saying "Well go get a Windows Phone!" to people upset about the  tracking stuff, and Microsoft doesn't say "Get an iPhone then and see if  we care!" to people who don't like Windows Phone.


No, they basically say "We don't care, you're going to buy it anyway", which is exactly what FA's mindset is regarding people who are upset about its administration. Apple in particular has come out and said that they NEED the tracking data, despite the fact that they're now disabling it due to pressure. Legal pressure. Because, y'know, privacy. As for Sony, they're apologizing, and that's it. And they took their time doing it, too.



> Major corporations  (especially these days with Twitter and Facebook and those fun things)  try to work with their customers to make everyone happy. They listen to  complaints and they work with people to make things better. FA doesn't  do this, FA tells you to piss off if you don't like something and that  you're wrong in thinking there's better ways because "you don't know how  FA works". This isn't the right way to do things, and you can't say  that it is.


Major corporations listen to people? Which ones and when? Last I checked, Microsoft hasn't really listened to anyone, nor Apple, nor Sony. Major corporations listen to their *shareholders*. Despite social media, it still hasn't caused the kind of change you think it has.



> You can say that people don't care all you want, but  I've encountered several people who are unaware with my "involvement"  here who have all said basically the same thing: Dragoneer is a bad  administrator and favors popular artists and friendships over the rest  of the site. These are just random people.


How many of them are willing to drop FA if it doesn't change?



> Really, the only thing  keeping people on FA is the art, and the only thing keeping artists on  FA is that it's not ridiculously hard to upload (*coughInkbunnycough*).  FA has very few redeeming qualities, and "friendly administration" isn't  one.


 And that's the thing. If FA is truly as reviled as it seems, then why hasn't it been easy for someone to swoop in and steal the community out from under it? Is it because nobody's tried, or because nobody really cares?


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## Accountability (May 13, 2011)

Runefox said:


> Oh look, it's Eevee. I'll keep this short then, because I really don't  want to get into _yet another_ war with you like we used to.
> 
> First off, I want to clear the air and say that I _agree with you_.
> 
> I'm not arguing that it's _okay_, just that it _happens_ and  demanding anything different with a sense of self-importance won't make  any difference at all, because _nobody gives a shit_.



_*And that's the problem.*_



> Of all the  people on FA, only a few are currently bickering about this. Of all the  people on FA, only a few are even vaguely aware of this.


While they be unaware of this event, pretty much everyone I've come across knows that the administration is corrupt. 



> The only way  that any of this is going to change is if someone goes ahead and does  something about it on their own, not by bitching and whining at the  people in charge who are pulling shit they don't agree with.


And there are people doing just that.



> It's very  obvious that if things are as bad as people keep saying, they're making  their own bed. If people really gave a shit, they'd be lying in it, too,  but as yet, nobody's seriously contested it and here we have FA still  going strong after what has been seen as several "FA-killing" events  from the regular drama that happens practically every day to the  outcasting of zoophiles and cubs.


Have a look at Alexa's statistics for FA. The numbers are probably not exact but from my experience, Alexa trends seem to be pretty close to the actual thing. Notice that there's been a steady decline in everything from pageviews to time on site over the past three years. Notice that there's a good drop in late 2010 around when the hackings took place and they (poorly) handled the cub porn ban.



> And I agree with that, too. However, what I'm saying is that whining and complaining about it won't really do much from a user's perspective, because FA's community is virtually blind to what goes on with the administration. For the most part, so am I, because I have no real reason to follow it. And especially believing things like "We donate, so we have a say" is exactly the opposite of how to effect the kind of change they want to effect. I mean, if people really cared more about the politics of FA than the actual services, then donations would have stopped long ago, but they haven't.


The proper way to effect change on FA is to not attempt to. FA doesn't change, and they see no reason to because of posts like yours. Also, Donations have been open for a number of weeks now and no one has bothered to donate.



> Shouldn't that be enough to prove that that line of thinking just won't work here? Why should an owner or admin listen to someone complaining about the way things are run when the majority of people out there don't really care one way or another? It's just not the way to get the message across.


There is no way to get the message across. We have tried to be nice, we have tried to help, we have tried to be angry and rant and we've tried to be reasonable. Nothing works and in the end the giant cats come back to shit all over everyone.



> No, they basically say "We don't care, you're going to buy it anyway", which is exactly what FA's mindset is regarding people who are upset about its administration. Apple in particular has come out and said that they NEED the tracking data, despite the fact that they're now disabling it due to pressure. Legal pressure. Because, y'know, privacy. As for Sony, they're apologizing, and that's it. And they took their time doing it, too.


No, first they hype it up and make you want to buy it, then they release it, then they find out ways to make it better (from people's complaints and suggestions) so more people buy it next time. Let's use Minecraft as an example. It started out free. Do you think it'd be anywhere near as big as it is today if Notch's response to problems was "Well if you don't like your free game then just leave! You don't know how Minecraft works!" No, it would be forever doomed to be some free time wasting game on some game site with a bunch of ads. 



> Major corporations listen to people? Which ones and when? Last I checked, Microsoft hasn't really listened to anyone, nor Apple, nor Sony. Major corporations listen to their *shareholders*. Despite social media, it still hasn't caused the kind of change you think it has.


It's the job of the customer service and public relations offices to listen to people. Have you been on Twitter? Tweet a complaint about any major company's product and I will be shocked if they don't find you and contact you about it. Look at @xboxsupport. I've been very frustrated with my Xbox 360 in the past and they contacted me to help and were nice and polite. They weren't snarky, they didn't tell me that they're _workin' on it_ and my problem would be fixed in the next version of Xbox.




> How many of them are willing to drop FA if it doesn't change?


They're waiting for alternatives.



> And that's the thing. If FA is truly as reviled as it seems, then why hasn't it been easy for someone to swoop in and steal the community out from under it? Is it because nobody's tried, or because nobody really cares?


Because the people who are working on these things are taking their time to make sure everything works and works well before launching, something that FA didn't really do. FA still has "legacy" problems despite being 6 years old because the site was thrown together very quickly to take advantage of an unfilled niche.


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## Smelge (May 13, 2011)

In response to an alternative, at current there is no viable one.

The big ones, Inkbunny and SoFurry have massive flaws that prevent a wholesale shift of users. Inkbunny has some odd and restrictive rules on art, as well as poor image uploading systems, while SoFurry is a complete clusterfuck with no logic behind it.

Starting an FA competitor seems like a simple enough task, but you have the community issues. A startup will have to come out of the box with new and interesting features to get a large number of big artists shifting over. Artists won't go if there isn't the audience to show to, while the audience will stay where the artists are. Inkbunny had some success at the start with their Print On Demand service, which is why it was able to emerge as a rival, though it still has issues, and if I recall, the POD service got suspended due to the Alertpay thing.

Now, the big issue with moving artists to a new site, is that most of the big names seem to be all buddy-buddy with certain admin around these parts. It's safe to say that they as good as call some of the shots around here. They're allowed to bend rules and break them if required. Any other site would tell them to sling their hook. They'll stay in a favourable atmosphere.

So, yes, a new FA rival could pop up tomorrow, but it needs something special to persuade the community to cross over and make it a legitimate rival.


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## Pravda (May 13, 2011)

The other problem is that any new site will get PR-smeared. Inkbunny has this undeserved reputation as "pedobunny" (and who started that?), and anything new will be judged by the people who built it, instead of _what it does and how it does it_. Meanwhile, FA will sit around getting owned ten ways to sunday, people like Runefox will say "nobody cares so why bother", and everyone who wants to/knows how to fix things will get outcast as a social pariah. But it's okay because the little problems don't affect _me_, right guys?


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## Smelge (May 14, 2011)

Pravda said:


> The other problem is that any new site will get PR-smeared. Inkbunny has this undeserved reputation as "pedobunny" (and who started that?)


 
You mean apart from the thing where when FA announced the cub porn ban, IB declared they were still open for all your kiddyfiddling needs? The owners being the people who brought you Softpaw, the premier magazine for young fictional characters in sexual situations, or that they seem to have a higher than average amount of aforementioned cub stuff?

Totally undeserved name.


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## Accountability (May 14, 2011)

Smelge said:


> You mean apart from the thing where when FA announced the cub porn ban, IB declared they were still open for all your kiddyfiddling needs? The owners being the people who brought you Softpaw, the premier magazine for young fictional characters in sexual situations, or that they seem to have a higher than average amount of aforementioned cub stuff?
> 
> Totally undeserved name.



I think Pravada was trying to get at _who_ was saying it over what they were saying. It's unethical for a person in that position, not to mention hypocritical coming from someone who has been in Softpaw and has several cub-like commissions floating around.


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## Volkodav (May 14, 2011)

Accountability said:


> I think Pravada was trying to get at _who_ was saying it over what they were saying. It's unethical for a person in that position, not to mention hypocritical coming from someone who has been in Softpaw and has several cub-like commissions floating around.


 Wait what? Is this in reply to "pedobunny"?


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## Runefox (May 14, 2011)

Pravda said:


> Meanwhile, FA will sit around getting owned ten ways to sunday, people like Runefox will say "nobody cares so why bother", and everyone who wants to/knows how to fix things will get outcast as a social pariah.


 Yes, because I'm totally arguing that nobody should bother trying to fix things. What I'm saying is that blabbing on and on about how this that and the other thing are broken aren't going to get squat done because nobody is going to listen. That is my point. In order to fix things, you need to do something different. What I'm saying is, is it not brutally obvious by now that bitching and moaning about it is just going to get you ignored and swept under a rug? If the staff are *really* that corrupt, then do you *seriously* think that asking them to pretty-please stop being so corrupt will work? Y'know, especially considering that after so much outrage and people doing exactly that so much in the past hasn't really done anything?

If, as everyone says, FA is the only game in town, then consider this: If a company has a monopoly on something really popular, what incentive do they have to listen to their customers? It's not like they can go somewhere else. Thinking otherwise is exactly the reason change hasn't been effected yet after all these years of complaining that people have been doing.


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## Pravda (May 14, 2011)

Smelge said:


> You mean apart from the thwords words words


 
This may shock and surprise you, but I have no real investment one way or the other in this entire manufactured controversy about cub whatever, hence why I called it a PR smear.


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## Smelge (May 14, 2011)

Pravda said:


> This may shock and surprise you, but I have no real investment one way or the other in this entire manufactured controversy about cub whatever, hence why I called it a PR smear.


 
Smear implies a directed and co-ordinated attack.


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## Pravda (May 14, 2011)

Smelge said:


> Smear implies a directed and co-ordinated attack.


 
No, it really doesn't.

Runefox, you've made your point about how _you_ don't care and how _you_ think this is pointless. Good job. Now go scramble your account here, and flounce off, like you did on the mainsite. I'm not trying to get my point across to _you_, in case it isn't abundantly clear. Maybe the _other users_ might like to learn about how corrupt the administration is, and maybe the _other users who are not already convinced that the site is unsalvageable_ might be able to demand change.


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## Runefox (May 14, 2011)

Pravda said:


> Blah blah blah demand change blah blah blah fuck off


 Bitch and complain and misconstrue what I say all you want. It's not going to make any difference in the world. You can't just ask something you consider corrupt to up and stop being corrupt anymore than you can ask a brutal dictator to stop being a meanie-head. It's just not going to happen. *Better people than you have tried*.

My overall point is, *you can't change anything just by complaining about it*. Go *do* something *useful* about it. If FA is that terrible, *make a new one*.


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## Pravda (May 14, 2011)

Runefox said:


> blah blah make your own yourself hahaha you r = so owned!!


 
Guess what? I'm _working on it_. The technical problems are easy to solve! Now, we just need people like you to stop saying dumb fatalistic "sotp complaining, why don't you go do better" crap, because it _justifies the fucking status quo_! Why are you continuing to post "i agree with you but everything you say is wrong"?


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## Runefox (May 14, 2011)

Pravda said:


> I'M NOT LISTENING BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH IF WE KEEP BITCHING ABOUT IT LIKE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS ON END, SOMETHING WILL BE DONE! :V :V :V :V :V :V


 Because I'm being fucking realistic? "Oh, admins, you're totally corrupt and don't care about the community, could you please stop being corrupt and not-caring about the community? It would mean ever so much."

But hey, whatever, waste your fucking time. Again, *better people than you have tried*, and *failed*. It's not like you're the first person to say "HEY GUYS FA'S STAFF IS CORRUPT LET'S ASK THEM TO STOP BEING CORRUPT" and go bitching and whining for a while before finally realizing the futility of trying to change that kind of thing because this *isn't a fucking democracy* and *your "voice" means fuck all*.

And for that matter, I _highly doubt_ that you're working on something better, and I also *very* highly doubt that what I'm saying - Which is, do it yourself and stop screaming at a wall - is going to make an impact on it even if you are.


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## Thatch (May 14, 2011)

Pravda said:


> But it's okay because the little problems don't affect _me_, right guys?


 
Yes, exactly. It's okay because it's a site on the internet that people upload art to for free. Just like there are dozens of, and which can full well take on FA's role in case it completely disassembles itself from the inside. It's not like people will suddenly become homeless, without means to live. The site may be a part it's admins life, so it's understandable in their case, but it's not a healthy reaction for a simple user like you to feel such strong emotions about it.

tl;dr IT'S A REALLY FUCKING RIDICULOUS THING TO CONCERN YOURSELF WITH. GET A LIFE.


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## Pravda (May 14, 2011)

I know what I'll do! Tell everyone who's complaining to just shut up and deal and get a life! That'll work wonders and fix all of the real problems!

Jesus christ, you people put a whole lot of effort into allegedly not caring. You're also trying to make the people with criticism seem like the ones with the problem.

Why are you so easily manipulated? Why are you telling everyone?

If you _really_ don't care, why don't you just _shut the fuck up and deal w/ it_, like you're telling me to do? What's your investment in this?


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## Runefox (May 15, 2011)

I'm not trying to say that the people with criticism are the ones with the problem - The people with the deluded notion that bitching about the problem will do something about it. I've said this many times now: There's nothing that you can do about it *besides doing something more productive*. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to quell a rebellion or something like you're implying. I'm saying this because it's all been done before and quite frankly you're not going to get anything out of it by bitching and moaning about it. That's all I'm saying. That's all I've said. You can't seem to understand that, despite the fact that I've had to say it multiple times now. If you want to get their attention, you need to do something other than trying to get people mad at them, because frankly, besides getting mad, it won't accomplish anything because as people have pointed out, there is no suitable alternative, therefore meaning that FA has a 'monopoly' on their community, which means that unless you've got something to change that, it's not very likely that anyone in an administrative position is going to listen to your bitching and complaining because frankly they have no reason to.

And with all that out of the way, I'll say it again: All I'm saying is find some other way to get your message across, because you're going to waste your time if all you have is "demand change". Hell, if I wanted you to just shut the hell up, I'd tell you. Speaking of which, I never did tell you to shut up, though you've said as much to me twice.


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## Pravda (May 15, 2011)

No, I'm waiting for the other guy to respond. Not you.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 15, 2011)

Pravda said:


> No, I'm waiting for the other guy to respond. Not you.



arguing on here and being childish about it in the process is like participating in the special Olympics... Even if you win-well you get the rest.

Really though bitching for change with out an active participation towards a set goal is irritating to read. No one is doing anything and while fa needs fixes- there is no viable solution being inacted so rather than bitch on here why not drop it until someone, maybe your self, can come up with a viable solution to solve this clusterfuck.

I agree there are issues, this incident only hammers it in harder; however myself without a solution to better the situation shall refrain from bitching as it solves nothing. 

Tldr- bitching about problems is like telling me I have a zit on my face. Yes it exist but how do you get rid of it...


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## Pravda (May 15, 2011)

You have a zit on your face. That is a problem.

What do we do about problems? We fix them. Pop the zit.

Shushing the people who talk about zits (in general and specific) is not really a great solution, but it seems to be most common these days.


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## Volkodav (May 15, 2011)

Pravda said:


> You have a zit on your face. That is a problem.
> 
> What do we do about problems? We fix them. Pop the zit.
> 
> Shushing the people who talk about zits (in general and specific) is not really a great solution, but it seems to be most common these days.


Actually no, popping zits makes it worse. Makes the area red and painful and can actually force the zit... juice? idk, further down in the skin. Also, the grease and dirt from your fingers can cause more acne around the area of the zit


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## Xaerun (May 15, 2011)

Guys why do gripes about staff always turn into a huge shit-slinging match _that often doesn't actually have the staff doing the slinging_? Italics are fun!

Can't we be civil while we bitch about us/present arguments against said bitching?
Much appreciated.


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## Xegras (May 15, 2011)

Xaerun said:


> Guys why do gripes about staff always turn into a huge shit-slinging match _that often doesn't actually have the staff doing the slinging_? Italics are fun!
> 
> Can't we be civil while we bitch about us/present arguments against said bitching?
> Much appreciated.


 
Xaerun blows!

Also I hear he ain't that good of an admin...


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## Xaerun (May 15, 2011)

Xegras said:


> Xaerun blows!
> 
> Also I hear he ain't that good of an admin...


 FECES CANNON
ACTIVATE


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## Smelge (May 15, 2011)

Xaerun said:


> FECES CANNON
> ACTIVATE


 
Ugh. Really? From you, I would have expected something a bit more professional.

It's spelled "faeces".

God damn it.


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## Volkodav (May 15, 2011)

Smelge said:


> Ugh. Really? From you, I would have expected something a bit more professional.
> 
> It's spelled "faeces".
> 
> God damn it.


face cannon
activate!!


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## Thatch (May 15, 2011)

Pravda said:


> I know what I'll do! Tell everyone who's complaining to just shut up and deal and get a life! That'll work wonders and fix all of the real problems!
> 
> Jesus christ, you people put a whole lot of effort into allegedly not caring. You're also trying to make the people with criticism seem like the ones with the problem.



Haha, effort? Writing a post is "effort" to you? That explains a lot.

And what have you exactly done to fix those "problems"?
Not to mention that, as I said, this site not irreplacable, so your reaction isn't a healthy one for anyone save the mod/admin team. Say, why won't you run for THAT position if the fate of FA is so dear to you. Then come back to us.



Pravda said:


> Why are you so easily manipulated? Why are you telling everyone?
> 
> If you _really_ don't care, why don't you just _shut the fuck up and deal w/ it_, like you're telling me to do? What's your investment in this?



Manipulated by whom? Into what? Who's everyone? Conspiracy much? You really make this out as a bigger and darker deal than it really is.
Guess what, a site on the internet shouldn't be so important to you unless you put a lot of effort into building it. Again, it's not a healthy reaction. You DO have problems, and none of them are the site.

And why would I shut up? You're so ridiculously aggreviated by such irrelevant things. It's great entertainment. Besides, I didn't tell you to shut up. I told you to GET A LIFE. It's for your own good.
In the end, I'm not the one with a problem, because all of this doesn't affect me in the slightest :V



Clayton said:


> Actually no, popping zits makes it worse. Makes the area red and painful and can actually force the zit... juice? idk, further down in the skin. Also, the grease and dirt from your fingers can cause more acne around the area of the zit


 
Exactly, it can get the zit wound infected. It can get much worse than just more acne around the area.



Xaerun said:


> Guys why do gripes about staff always turn into a huge shit-slinging match _that often doesn't actually have the staff doing the slinging_?


 
Admins fail at shit slinging too? :V


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## Xenofur (May 15, 2011)

Thatch said:


> Exactly, it can get the zit wound infected. It can get much worse than just more acne around the area.


Actually, no. Zits are caused by pores closing up for whatever reason (in many people simply due to oil overproduction, something no amount of hygiene can prevent). Close pores prevent bacteriums from exiting the pore, causing them to start reproducing since the pore is closed to the outer world, warm, wet and provides additional food regularly. Those same bacteria exposed to cold air will quickly die off and any further zits will only be caused by other pores actually getting closed up physically.

In fact, leaving zits as they are often causes the ... gunk in there to just stay there until the bacteriums start to die off on their own, dry up and form a hard, not easily removed, and often outwards visible knot under the skin.

All of this sounds like a great analogy to the current situation.


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## Pravda (May 15, 2011)

Thatch said:


> And what have you exactly done to fix those "problems"? Say, why won't you run for THAT position if the fate of FA is so dear to you. Then come back to us.


Oh, I see, you have no historical context.

Most recently, I gave FA a backup solution. Previously I diagrammed their network; they ended up using my documentation during the (alleged) DDoS. There's some more history, but suffice it to say: I've _offered_ to fix more things, but got the runaround from everyone involved. I've been watching this situation deteriorate to this point for upward of 6 years.

What have _you_ done? Sit around and post "get a life whiner" on the forum? 



> remaining words


 
Nice to see that you're still _easily_ manipulated into talking about everything _but_ the issue at hand.


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## nrr (May 15, 2011)

*Stop this idiocy*

Stop it now. Get off your asses and do something constructive and productive. Yammering away on an Internet forum like this is the antithesis of productive.


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## Rossyfox (May 15, 2011)

Can't we all just be reasonable here and agree to hate all sides involved?


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## Xenofur (May 15, 2011)

*Re: Stop this idiocy*



nrr said:


> Stop it now. Get off your asses and do something constructive and productive. Yammering away on an Internet forum like this is the antithesis of productive.


 
This constructive enough?

11-05-15@19:26:22 â€¢ @GumbyNET5 CPAN Upload: CPAN-Mini-Inject-0.29 by ******** (me)


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## Aden (May 15, 2011)

*Re: Stop this idiocy*



nrr said:


> Stop it now. Get off your asses and do something constructive and productive. Yammering away on an Internet forum like this is the antithesis of productive.


 
Tried to "this" this but apparently the forums don't like it

Amazing how much emotion some people people invest in these things


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## nrr (May 15, 2011)

*Re: Stop this idiocy*



Xenofur said:


> This constructive enough?
> 
> 11-05-15@19:26:22 â€¢ @GumbyNET5 CPAN Upload: CPAN-Mini-Inject-0.29 by ******** (me)



Yes.


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## Heimdal (May 15, 2011)

C'mon guys, we all know that words have never accomplished anything in the history of mankind. As well, it's not right to express a dislike of anything. So let's all emphasize our right to accomplish nothing and be quiet about all the problems of the site.

I mean, being quiet is exactly as effective as complaining! Well, unless someone listens, but let's just ignore how that makes it infinitely more effective. Nobody is going to hear any complaints anyways, not even the users and mods who read and responded to the complaints in this thread itself. So I completely agree with all the people who want the bitching to stop, despite how fucked up backwards it is to be bitching about bitching.

:V


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## Arshes Nei (May 15, 2011)

Sorry, been busy with giving advice and helping with the bug stop on Corel Painter 12.


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## Volkodav (May 15, 2011)

Xenofur said:


> Actually, no. Zits are caused by pores closing up for whatever reason (in many people simply due to oil overproduction, something no amount of hygiene can prevent). Close pores prevent bacteriums from exiting the pore, causing them to start reproducing since the pore is closed to the outer world, warm, wet and provides additional food regularly. Those same bacteria exposed to cold air will quickly die off and any further zits will only be caused by other pores actually getting closed up physically.
> 
> In fact, leaving zits as they are often causes the ... gunk in there to just stay there until the bacteriums start to die off on their own, dry up and form a hard, not easily removed, and often outwards visible knot under the skin.
> 
> All of this sounds like a great analogy to the current situation.


I personally disagree. Idk about you, but I for one am a professional slob/acne doctor.
To get rid of acne just use acne wash + acne face pads + don't pick at/touch your damn face


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## Diocletian (May 15, 2011)

I think the problem here (ITT) is that Dragoneer is extremely unlikely to answer anyone's questions or make any statement about this, since he seems to ignore the forums now, except for the occasionally foray for minor matters. FA staff have a hard enough hard time getting hold of him and answers and commitments from him, let alone anyone else.

If he isn't going to give any public explanation/answers over what happened in December, I think he is unlikely to bother with "witchiegate". Likewise, if he can't get rid of lazy admins and staff who go behind others back, he isn't going to be able to stop Sciggles interfering with the site. Only external pressure can move him.

In this thread, in the absence of delegation and/or Dragoneer himself we're left high and dry, and people end up arguing with each other.

It is telling that no member of staff has said, per my query on the first page on this thread, that they are happy with the way FA is currently being run or confident of its finances/sustainability or that anyone is working on fixing all the security problems with a viable completion date. 

In the end, Dragoneer is holding the community that uses FA hostage to his own personal finances, stress/health/long working hours, mismanagement and incompetency, and now Sciggles's whims and moods may be added to that I suppose. :<

Well, we'll have to see what way the wind blows things and whether things can keep staggering on.


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## Xenofur (May 15, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I personally disagree. Idk about you, but I for one am a professional troll.


 
Aha, i see.

Seriously though, what i said is straight from my skin doctor. And since i don't care to go into more detail here: Look up Acne Vulgaris on wikipedia.


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## Volkodav (May 15, 2011)

Xenofur said:


> Aha, i see.
> 
> Seriously though, what i said is straight from my skin doctor. And since i don't care to go into more detail here: Look up Acne Vulgaris on wikipedia.


 
Excuse me, how did you get "Clayton is a troll" from that post?


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## Ben (May 15, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> If he isn't going to give any public explanation/answers over what happened in December, I think he is unlikely to bother with "witchiegate".


 
Didn't he though? At least, I remember that being the point of that super-huge LJ post. Not that simply addressing problems deserves much of a medal, but I could have sworn he did that at least.


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## narutonfuzzi (May 15, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Actually no, popping zits makes it worse. Makes the area red and painful and can actually force the zit... juice? idk, further down in the skin. Also, the grease and dirt from your fingers can cause more acne around the area of the zit


lol yea thats why i dont pop zits... usually -_-;
when ever i go on a date of coarse i have to get rid of the most apparant ones but otherwise i try to leave them, i can put makeup like concealer on the big ones when going to school so nobody knows its there xD


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## Volkodav (May 15, 2011)

Ben said:


> Didn't he though? At least, I remember that being the point of that super-huge LJ post. Not that simply addressing problems deserves much of a medal, but I could have sworn he did that at least.


 IIRC, all he said was "an admin's account was compromised" and the famous "we're working on it"


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## Fay V (May 15, 2011)

popping zits leaves scars, you damage the area around the zit by forcing it like that. The way skin is, there's softer skin I guess underneath, when you crush it like that it leaves it permanently...deflated. that's how a doctor explained it to me.


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## narutonfuzzi (May 15, 2011)

Fay V said:


> popping zits leaves scars, you damage the area around the zit by forcing it like that. The way skin is, there's softer skin I guess underneath, when you crush it like that it leaves it permanently...deflated. that's how a doctor explained it to me.


but i dont crush my zits, i put makeup over it lol. also when i pop them there is no scar


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## dinosaurdammit (May 15, 2011)

narutonfuzzi said:


> but i dont crush my zits, i put makeup over it lol. also when i pop them there is no scar


 
Packing in make up makes zits worse. You end up clogging your pores more. Don't do that it can lead to infection... ON TOPIC... Whichie if you are still checking into this what are your thoughts now?


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## narutonfuzzi (May 15, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Packing in make up makes zits worse. You end up clogging your pores more. Don't do that it can lead to infection... ON TOPIC... Whichie if you are still checking into this what are your thoughts now?


 
i never had infected zits, and i dont put stuff in it just makeup on it eww. i do think im okay, i just which they would stop coming over and over


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## Thatch (May 15, 2011)

Pravda said:


> Oh, I see, you have no historical context.
> 
> Most recently, I gave FA a backup solution. Previously I diagrammed their network; they ended up using my documentation during the (alleged) DDoS. There's some more history, but suffice it to say: I've _offered_ to fix more things, but got the runaround from everyone involved. I've been watching this situation deteriorate to this point for upward of 6 years.
> 
> What have _you_ done? Sit around and post "get a life whiner" on the forum?



Alright, I stand corrected. You did something for FA. What I still don't understand is why you STILL care.
The point still stands. It's a site on the internet that's anything but irreplacable. What makes it worth battling for to you.

And yes, that's exactly what I have done. You know why? Because as previously stated, I don't care :V
The whole site is worth for me only as much as it brought about these forums, on two sections of which I happen to post. The rest is just ridiculous drama that's best viewed from a distance.



Pravda said:


> Nice to see that you're still _easily_ manipulated into talking about everything _but_ the issue at hand.


 
To be manipulated, there have to be a manipulator. WHO is manipulating me, dare say? And what EXACTLY is the issue? I don't actually know what you're talking about, save for "we need to fix FA!". 



Xenofur said:


> Actually, no. Zits are caused by pores closing up for whatever reason (in many people simply due to oil overproduction, something no amount of hygiene can prevent). Close pores prevent bacteriums from exiting the pore, causing them to start reproducing since the pore is closed to the outer world, warm, wet and provides additional food regularly. Those same bacteria exposed to cold air will quickly die off and any further zits will only be caused by other pores actually getting closed up physically.
> 
> In fact, leaving zits as they are often causes the ... gunk in there to just stay there until the bacteriums start to die off on their own, dry up and form a hard, not easily removed, and often outwards visible knot under the skin.
> 
> All of this sounds like a great analogy to the current situation.


 
It's best to rub an antibacterial cream. But when you pop a zit, you create an open wound. Before that, there were bacteria there, but the skin structure wasn't damaged. After the fact, the resulting wound can get infected, both by the bacteria from the zit, but more importantly by the filth you usually carry on your fingers.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 15, 2011)

narutonfuzzi said:


> i never had infected zits, and i dont put stuff in it just makeup on it eww. i do think im okay, i just which they would stop coming over and over


 
Trying to cover up the problem leads to more- YAY I MADE AN ANALOGY TO STAY ON TOPIC!


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## Witchiebunny (May 15, 2011)

My thoughts in what sense? Zit popping?


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## dinosaurdammit (May 15, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> My thoughts in what sense? Zit popping?


 
Hahaha no not quite. Just your thoughts as to how everything has turned out. Do you feel Sciggles and Neer should apologize to the whole site or just let them be asshats about it and admit no wrong? If I was in your position I would demand they apologize to the site not just myself. They stirred up more stuff than was needed.


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## Volkodav (May 15, 2011)

I hate to be *that guy* but we both know that there will be no public apologies.

Y'all probably don't watch Family Guy, but whenever the admins "apologize", I think of the episode where Brian writes a book and Stewie is his assistant and at the end Stewie wants an apology and Brian just skirts around the issue and blames Stewie for shit. Y'know what I'm talking about?

EDIT: here.
*Brian:* _I just want to talk to you about everything that happened. Um, you know, you were the only person who believed in me when I was down. This all happened so fast, and I lost sight of who I was. I mean, you know, sure, you were in a little over your head, but..._
*Stewie:* _Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was in over my head?_
*Brian:* _Yeah, but, Stewie, this isn't about all the things you did wrong. It's about me apologizing._
*Stewie:* _Okay, then apologize._
*Brian:* _I just did._
*Stewie:* _No, you didn't. You just said, "It's about me apologizing." That's not actually apologizing._
*Brian:* _All right, Stewie, I'm sorry that I made you uncomfortable and put you in a situation that you clearly couldn't handle._
*Stewie:* _Okay, okay, there it is again. What the hell? Stop with that! _
*Brian:* _Y-you're right. You're right. This is, this is about healing. This, this is not about how many things you messed up along the way. It's about how badly I reacted to them. So, I'm sorry about how badly I reacted to your many errors._
*Stewie:* _That's as good as it's going to get, isn't it?_
*Brian:* _Pretty much._
*Stewie:* _You can't write._ 

Hahahha perfect


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## Witchiebunny (May 15, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I hate to be *that guy* but we both know that there will be no public apologies.
> 
> Y'all probably don't watch Family Guy, but whenever the admins "apologize", I think of the episode where Brian writes a book and Stewie is his assistant and at the end Stewie wants an apology and Brian just skirts around the issue and blames Stewie for shit. Y'know what I'm talking about?
> 
> ...


 
You know, this is pretty much perfect. 

The thing about this entire situation is this: In the end, I started it in as much as I did the leaking of info. When Dragoneer confronted me, I admitted to it, and told him that I was ready to lie in the bed I'd made. I wasn't proud of it or happy about what I did, but I figured for the betrayal of trust I'd displayed, that handling the situation with as much class and dignity as I could have, given the situation, was going to be my route. 

I've held that view all the way through this. It's why the leaked logs haven't been made public, even though I easily could have done so in retaliation for Sciggles' interference with an agreement between Dragoneer and I. It's why I haven't, even now, railed against Dragoneer nor have I aired what is decidedly a private situation even more publicly by posting about it on my journal. (One thing that the Zaush situation, and Dragoneer's handling of it taught me is that airing something publicly on your journal when you don't have to doesn't clear the air, it just stirs the shit more; while drama always feels like it's huge when it involves you, most people either don't know or don't care about it and posting a journal to "clear the air" only invites in more drama and prolongs the situation)

I could demand an apology from Dragoneer and Sciggles both to me and to the site but to what end? It'd only serve to make myself look like a martyr to "my cause", and even if I/the site got an apology it wouldn't be genuine. It'd be lip service, with no intent to change and no lessons learned and thus, meaningless. There would be no point. At this point, I'm content to take my knocks for my part in this and move on, with my head held high. I'm not going to change Dragoneer or Sciggles' minds by whinging at them for an apology, and I'm at the point where I don't really care if they change their minds or not. In the end, I'm not going to continue to feel guilty for something I've already apologized for and taken my punishment for, ESPECIALLY since Sciggles decided that I needed to be put through the crucible in addition to everything else. All both of them have done is shown themselves for the type of people they really are.


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## Xenofur (May 16, 2011)

Thatch said:


> when you pop a zit, you create an open wound


Which is preferrable to a sealed and infected wound because you can clean and dry it out. Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you have one, the skin already is damaged. Now stop trying to talk about shit you have no clue about.


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## kayfox (May 16, 2011)

Somehow I find it ironic this tread has been totally derailed with zit talk, instead of talking about the hard issues.


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## EPSILON (May 16, 2011)

There are many different types of acne guys. Some are safe to pop, some are not. You shouldn't really pop any kind of acne but lets face the facts; would you rather have a small inflamed area that you could cover up, or a big bulbous _thing_ sticking out of your face?

Seriously though: if you have acne and acne medication isn't working effectively than it probably means you're dehydrated and/or lacking some serious Vitamin A and B (B1, B2, B3, B6, B12). Start by drinking more water (if you aren't already drinking the recommended 6-8 glasses a day). If that doesn't help, take some Vitamin A and B. Other Vitamins that can help in addition to A and B are E and Zinc.



kayfox said:


> Somehow I find it ironic this tread has been totally derailed with zit talk, instead of talking about the hard issues.


 Probably cause there isn't much to say other than what has already been said.


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## dinosaurdammit (May 16, 2011)

EPSILON said:


> Probably cause there isn't much to say other than what has already been said.


 
Wrong. It started out as an analogy though some people took it literal.


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## EPSILON (May 16, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Wrong. It started out as an analogy though some people took it literal.


I was talking about how it was continuing, rather than how it started. How am I wrong? Please say something on topic (and helpful) that hasn't already been said before.


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## Xenofur (May 17, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Wrong. It started out as an analogy though some people took it literal.


It still is, completely. Every post about the issue has been a perfect analogy for the situation at hand. Half the participants just don't realize that.


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