# Metal Vs. Rock



## VÃ¶lf (Sep 26, 2009)

You know, I've heard from some people before that said: "Judas Priest isn't metal" and I've heard "Iron Maiden sings too high to be metal" and other things pertaining to it. 

I've had a hard time drawing the line b/t rock and metal myself, but I hardly think these statements make sense. I also know there are a lot of stupid subgenres that get to be too much some times; Nu-metal, grunge metal, even funk metal, whatever that is. (Really I think the term "Classic metal" is the worst of all)

What I don't think is that it's necessary to have some demented "drop-really- &#@$ing-low" tuning and screaming involved to be metal. I'll give a couple examples that could be debatable (while I name songs, I'm more or less talking about the bands):

Ace of Spades by MotÃ¶rhead
Devour by Shinedown
Shackler's Revenge by GNR
Rock You Like a Hurricane by Scorpions

The list goes on. Ever run into a debate for music categorization like this? What do you guys think?


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## Zhael (Sep 26, 2009)

Rock is really hard to categorize with metal.
Slipknot, not metal, but they try to be.
Iron Maiden... I believe they are.
Black Sabbath, just barely.


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## Endless Humiliation (Sep 27, 2009)

MotÃ¶rhead = Speed Metal
Maiden = New Wave Of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM)
Black Sabbath = "Proto-doom"/Heavy Metal
G'N'R = Hard Rock 
Judas Priest = Also Heavy Metal


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## Takun (Sep 27, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> MotÃ¶rhead = Speed Metal
> Maiden = New Wave Of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM)
> Black Sabbath = "Proto-doom"/Heavy Metal
> G'N'R = Hard Rock
> Judas Priest = Also Heavy Metal




I agree with this.  Black Sabbath was like doom before doom or some shit.  GnR was never metal, it was always rock n rolllllllllllll.


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## jinxtigr (Sep 27, 2009)

VÃ¶lf said:


> You know, I've heard from some people before that said: "Judas Priest isn't metal" and I've heard "Iron Maiden sings too high to be metal" and other things pertaining to it.



I cannot imagine Priest and Maiden not being metal, but then I'm 41 

Used to own Powerslave, lost the album, but I do have British Steel, Unleashed in the East, and my favorite Priest album Point Of Entry 

On VINYL :twisted:


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## VÃ¶lf (Sep 28, 2009)

yeah, thanks to cpu's I own bits and pieces of a lot of those. 

I think the point is that metal in general can still be metal without being Death Metal. 

And then, just b/c I've said the word so many times: metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal metal...


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## Kivaari (Sep 28, 2009)

Whoever says Iron Maiden and Judas Priest aren't metal has no idea what they are talking about. And this is coming from someone who listens Death Metal.


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## Reednemer (Sep 28, 2009)

ive seen this just too much.. seriously this has been discussed like a million times and it has gone NOWHERE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psL1bDC3Ddo


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## Scautty (Sep 28, 2009)

Haha, I hope this doesn't become a stereotypical YouTube Music Video comment page. 

Personally, I think of how heavy everything is. Double bass, alternately tuned (and deeply distorted) guitars, vocal brutality and so on. Now, some music can be scary, but not metal. It all really relies on certain elements in the music. EXAMPLE: 30 Seconds to Mars (FAVORITE BAND) has screaming, has heavy guitars, and at some points elements of breakdowns, but they aren't metal. They use these elements to express 'anger' from time to time in their music, while metal uses this as a constant sound.

That's what I think. Don't give my opinion anal crabs, because that's just what it is. An opinion. ;D


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## Endless Humiliation (Sep 28, 2009)

i dont know why this would be an issue to anyone


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## Scautty (Sep 28, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> i dont know why this would be an issue to anyone



Exactly. I don't find it an issue at all. People can enjoy their music how they want to, and identify it how they want to as well.


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## jinxtigr (Sep 28, 2009)

Scautty said:


> Personally, I think of how heavy everything is. Double bass, alternately tuned (and deeply distorted) guitars, vocal brutality and so on. Now, some music can be scary, but not metal. It all really relies on certain elements in the music.



I wonder if it's blastbeats that people expect. I was just thinking of a Judas Priest track- I have the 'making of British Steel' DVD and love it, and on that there's a clip of Priest in concert playing Metal Gods.

Those are normally tuned guitars but deeply distorted for the era, and the drums are loud but not being played fast at all- but to me the metal aspect of it is mostly Rob Halford's vocal. He sort of lurches out like a monster, hunches over the mic and rips, "WE'VE TAKEN TOO MUCH FOR GRANTED" and it's the most brutal vocal imaginable  not a monster voice or cookie monster (the industry term for your roary deep deathmetal vocal!) but impossibly loud and harsh, but not a loose scream, a savage rip of a vocal that cuts through everything. He can do that with superhigh notes too, like the first chorus on Desert Plains (rip your head off on the vinyl, the CD apparently ruins it and cranks up the hi-hat real loud)

I can see how some guys would consider this stuff hard rock by now because metal has gone so much beyond it in brutality- I'm a big black metal fan but not as much listening to it, more just appreciating what it is and how brutal it is. Maybe the answer is just to use the subgenre names?


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## Scautty (Sep 28, 2009)

jinxtigr said:


> I can see how some guys would consider this stuff hard rock by now because metal has gone so much beyond it in brutality- I'm a big black metal fan but not as much listening to it, more just appreciating what it is and how brutal it is. Maybe the answer is just to use the subgenre names?



I know what song you're talking about with the Judas Priest, that scream still gives me shivers. :3

But for the quote, I think 'metal' was just a term invented to look more ballsy than 'rock.' (Hence the common sense that Metal is harder than Rocks.  ) And really, subgenres were invented for a similar reason, just to subdivide this already vastly identified genre. In a sense, almost ALL new 'rock' is 'metal,' just because of the era it is. Anything else can be portrayed and labeled as 'pop' or 'pop rock.' Alternative is the only thing kinda keeping a good breath of actual rock. (Green Day for example, because they decided to do what others did a century ago and migrate from punk. At least a little. Lol)


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## Gaybriel (Sep 29, 2009)

I love it when just about all of the music mentioned for both metal and rock have no real representation of the true genre~!

Y'all neeeeeeeeeds sum edyakatin.


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## Endless Humiliation (Sep 29, 2009)

Gaybriel said:


> I love it when just about all of the music mentioned for both metal and rock have no real representation of the true genre~!
> 
> Y'all neeeeeeeeeds sum edyakatin.



what are you talking about


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## Dyluck (Sep 29, 2009)

Kids these days don't understand metal.  I think it's funny that a lot of metal heads try to be elitist about metal being the greatest genre yet don't understand the genre at all or listen to any metal that is any good. :b



jinxtigr said:


> I cannot imagine Priest and Maiden not being metal, but then I'm 41
> 
> Used to own Powerslave, lost the album, but I do have British Steel, Unleashed in the East, and my favorite Priest album Point Of Entry
> 
> On VINYL :twisted:



You are my new favourite person.


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## Gaybriel (Sep 29, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> what are you talking about



If you think I'm posting that because of the mentioning of the bands in metal that should matter, that's not what I meant at all.
It's cool to see bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest get tossed up, that's cool. Anything from that time period is what's considered some of the prime examples of metal. That's all well and fine. I skimmed over the thread and didn't see these bands mentioned as much as they'd been posted. That's my fault.

But what made me post that was Guns 'n' Roses. Guns 'n' Roses was disgustingly over produced hair metal with a singer that sounds like a car that just lost an eye. Slash may be a crazy guitarist, but that's all the band had going for them. Doing even get me started on how big a waste of time Chinese Democracy was.

Also, is it a bad thing that Slipknot was at their best when they sounded like they had no idea how to play their instruments? Just saying?

What's commonly considered metal these days are bands that sound like they play as fast as they can and take the quickest way to destroying their throats, when there's bands like Protest The Hero and Between The Buried And Me that excel in tweaking what metal can be - intricate, mindblowing, like someone though about what they wanted to play. A lot of thought.


And as for rock, you turn on the rock or 'alternative' stations on the radio, and it's a bunch of guys who sound like they fail to compensate by going YUHTYUHTYUHTYUHYUHTYUHT YEYEYAAAAAWH and then contrast it with the cheesiest sad ballads. When you hear songs by Theory of a Deadman, Seether, and Puddle of Mudd back to back on the radio, do you honestly think that you could tell the difference? 

Be honest now.


You want rock n roll that could fill arenas? Monty Are I just came out with a record. Look it up. It's called _Break The Silence._ That should be enough.


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## Takun (Sep 29, 2009)

Gaybriel said:


> If you think I'm posting that because of the mentioning of the bands in metal that should matter, that's not what I meant at all.
> It's cool to see bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest get tossed up, that's cool. Anything from that time period is what's considered some of the prime examples of metal. That's all well and fine. I skimmed over the thread and didn't see these bands mentioned as much as they'd been posted. That's my fault.
> 
> But what made me post that was Guns 'n' Roses. Guns 'n' Roses was disgustingly over produced hair metal with a singer that sounds like a car that just lost an eye. Slash may be a crazy guitarist, but that's all the band had going for them. Doing even get me started on how big a waste of time Chinese Democracy was.
> ...



Oh man, you think we actually care about any of the bands posted?  lawl.  We were just responding to the OP.

There's bands pushing the boundaries of genres all the time.  I wouldn't say Protest the Hero or Between the Buried and me are doing anything new.


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## Trevfox (Sep 29, 2009)

I think that both of these groups have way too many sub genres to completley compare them cause what some people think is metal could just be hard rock or something to that effect


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## KaiFox (Sep 29, 2009)

@ OP: Did you just ask if Shinedown was a metal band? WTF? NO. Duh.



Trevfox said:


> I think that both of these groups have way too many sub genres to completley compare them cause what some people think is metal could just be hard rock or something to that effect


 
It depends on how much they differ. You can't say that progressive metal and Deathcore aren't dissimilar enough to merit their own sub-genres. In some cases, though, like the difference between Black metal and doom metal, THAT'S a little extreme.


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## Trevfox (Sep 29, 2009)

Yea i get what you mean I wasnt saying that all of the types are too similar I meant that the fine line where rock ends and metal begins is a very close call


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## Endless Humiliation (Sep 29, 2009)

black metal = lo-fi, harsh, screams

doom metal = slow, less harsh, but with some screams


there



and

i

care

for

motorheadironmaidenpriest


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## Trevfox (Sep 29, 2009)

who else is into black metal here jw cause most of my friends give me shit about me being satanic and shit and i just want to see who else is into it


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## Endless Humiliation (Sep 29, 2009)

i like it a lot but i get the feeling that there is not a lot of innovation


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## KaiFox (Sep 29, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> black metal = lo-fi, harsh, screams
> 
> doom metal = slow, less harsh, but with some screams


 
It's still pretty close, though. But meh, idc. I prefer some sub-genres of rock and metal over others, but for some I don't see the need to differentiate.


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## Kivaari (Sep 29, 2009)

Trevfox said:


> who else is into black metal here jw cause most of my friends give me shit about me being satanic and shit and i just want to see who else is into it


I listen to some, mostly Emperor, Immortal and December Wolves. I'm more into Power Metal and Technical Death Metal at the moment though.


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## Trevfox (Sep 29, 2009)

> i like it a lot but i get the feeling that there is not a lot of innovation


 
yea i could see that dissections a really good band if your looking for a little more innovation than some of the others like cryptopsy


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## jinxtigr (Sep 30, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> You are my new favourite person.



I'll try to do something metal next time I record something serious  I have just got a TS9. You're supposed to use that just as a tone shaper into a high gain amp, but I discovered that when I hotrodded my Valve Junior head insanely, it's only semi-high gain at best, but when you DO use the TS9 for an output boost, bingo, metal type high gain complete with the TS9 input voicing.

So now I could do metal, if only I can play tight enough to really do it properly  maybe I'll comp together rhythm tracks to get something properly tight.


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## Dyluck (Sep 30, 2009)

jinxtigr said:


> I'll try to do something metal next time I record something serious  I have just got a TS9. You're supposed to use that just as a tone shaper into a high gain amp, but I discovered that when I hotrodded my Valve Junior head insanely, it's only semi-high gain at best, but when you DO use the TS9 for an output boost, bingo, metal type high gain complete with the TS9 input voicing.
> 
> So now I could do metal, if only I can play tight enough to really do it properly  maybe I'll comp together rhythm tracks to get something properly tight.



I've got something properly tight for ya


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## Dass (Sep 30, 2009)

I seriously saw someone say "I prefer metal, like Linkin Park."


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## Gonebatty (Oct 1, 2009)

I dont care. It can get confusing, But I dont care while I have my new wave. Btw, vh1 called everyone mentioned here "hard rock". Since some of those were wrong, what exactly is it?


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## Dyluck (Oct 1, 2009)

Gonebatty said:


> I dont care. It can get confusing, But I dont care while I have my new wave. Btw, vh1 called everyone mentioned here "hard rock". Since some of those were wrong, what exactly is it?



Stop watching vh1 immediately.

Don't even listen to vh1 while covering your eyes that is just as bad.


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## Gonebatty (Oct 1, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Stop watching vh1 immediately.
> 
> Don't even listen to vh1 while covering your eyes that is just as bad.



Yeahhhh, didnt believe it for a second. "since when is judas priest rock?" was my first thought. GnR, yes, but priest? no. But I still dont know what hard rock is.
Edit: ah-ha... thanks.


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## Dyluck (Oct 1, 2009)

Gonebatty said:


> Yeahhhh, didnt believe it for a second. "since when is judas priest rock?" was my first thought. GnR, yes, but priest? no. But I still dont know what hard rock is.



Hard Rock, compare against Rock and Metal, especially Heavy Metal because that is the best kind of metal. 8)


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## jinxtigr (Oct 3, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> I've got something properly tight for ya



Wow, being a furry musician DOES make you popular 

I've got at least the sound of metal for ya 

http://www.jinxtigr.com/temp/TestHeavyGuit.mp3


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## VÃ¶lf (Oct 3, 2009)

Dass said:


> I seriously saw someone say "I prefer metal, like Linkin Park."



lol you "saw" them say it. XD they must've had a word bubble appear over their head eh?

lol jking... Yeah, a lot of different people clearly have a lot of different opinions on the matter of it. I mean so people consider LP metal. I suppose you could call them that, maybe not, I don't really care... but again that crappy "Nu-metal" term pops into my head  along with that they have other crazy subgenres that I've seen, like rap metal, funk metal, and other weird ones.

Even getting away from metal: Google the term "ghettotech" and see what comes up XD


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## Dass (Oct 4, 2009)

VÃ¶lf said:


> lol you "saw" them say it. XD they must've had a word bubble appear over their head eh?
> 
> lol jking... Yeah, a lot of different people clearly have a lot of different opinions on the matter of it. I mean so people consider LP metal. I suppose you could call them that, maybe not, I don't really care... but again that crappy "Nu-metal" term pops into my head  along with that they have other crazy subgenres that I've seen, like rap metal, funk metal, and other weird ones.
> 
> Even getting away from metal: Google the term "ghettotech" and see what comes up XD



Well, "saw" them say it in the sense that it was written text on a different forum.

Iron Maiden is really the only metal band I like (unless Steppenwolf counts). I mostly listen to hard/hardish classic rock, Van Halen, LedZep, AC/DC, et al.
Also, I love hard prog, but it has the unusual dilemma that Rush is pretty much the only hard prog band.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 4, 2009)

Hard prog does not exist cease using that term immÃ©diatement


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## Dass (Oct 4, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> Hard prog does not exist cease using that term immÃ©diatement



It does exist, it's just there's only one band in the genre.


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## Takun (Oct 4, 2009)

Dass said:


> It does exist, it's just there's only one band in the genre.



I prefer heavy prog.  Trip prog is p cool too.

Not cooler than fuzz folk, but p cool.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 4, 2009)

Dass said:


> It does exist, it's just there's only one band in the genre.



 Don't fuck with me man


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## Dyluck (Oct 4, 2009)

ITT we make up genres to describe individual bands.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 4, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> ITT we make up genres to describe individual bands.



 Shitcore


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## Dyluck (Oct 4, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> Shitcore



I said individual bands, not your entire music library.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 4, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> I said individual bands, not your entire music library.



http://www.last.fm/tag/fuck you


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## Dyluck (Oct 4, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> http://www.last.fm/tag/fuck you



Now that is a tag that I can get behind.


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## Dass (Oct 4, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> ITT we make up genres to describe individual bands.



Well what would you call 2112? (if you haven't heard it, fair warning, it's 20 and a half minutes long)


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## Dyluck (Oct 4, 2009)

Dass said:


> Well what would you call 2112? (if you haven't heard it, fair warning, it's 20 and a half minutes long)



I haven't heard it.  I don't care much for Rush.


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## jinxtigr (Oct 4, 2009)

tigr barbie says: metal is hard!

http://www.jinxtigr.com/temp/LastMile.mp3

Try as I might, I still couldn't make the guitars as hard as a lot of modern stuff. But that just makes it old skool and meatier 

There ya go- I'll do some more, not today tho


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## Dyluck (Oct 4, 2009)

jinxtigr said:


> tigr barbie says: metal is hard!
> 
> http://www.jinxtigr.com/temp/LastMile.mp3
> 
> ...



That was pretty nice.  Old school metal is my favourite kind. 8)


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## Takun (Oct 4, 2009)

Dass said:


> Well what would you call 2112? (if you haven't heard it, fair warning, it's 20 and a half minutes long)



Castrationcore


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 4, 2009)

Dass said:


> Well what would you call 2112? (if you haven't heard it, fair warning, it's 20 and a half minutes long)



Pretty bad.


Oh wait no



AWWWSUM


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## Sedit (Oct 30, 2009)

Trevfox said:


> who else is into black metal here jw cause most of my friends give me shit about me being satanic and shit and i just want to see who else is into it



I fucking love it!

Black metal is also a sometimes hard to pin down genre.   Theirs a big difference between the likes of Mayhem, Bathory, Burzum, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Covenant (or the Kovenent, depending what era of the band), Wolves In The Throneroom, Deathspell Omega,  and so forth.  even a casual listener should be able to tell these bands apart easily.  Which is one of the things I love about it.  Like the early-mid 80's thrash movement, theirs alot of divergence and personality to each band....each brings their own unique spin to the table (okay, and theirs a slew of copy cat bands as well, to go hand in hand with each subsequent bands pushing of the bounderies).

Some black metal, some fans may even hesitate to call black metal.  I've heard Wolves in the Throneroom referred to as "post metal" for example (I never understood the whole 'post' prefix....okay....after WHAT exactly?  And don't even get me started on the -core thing....."core" kinda meant something up til the late 90's...but after that it's become such an overused nebulous term that any real definition is pretty much lost).  WITTR are definately black metal.  

Why?  Well, this brings me to my point in this discussion...ultimately, the difference in rock, to metal, and the various sub genres often has more to do with the approach and attitude, the feel, of the band, than it does more readily definable sonic elements.  To say that Judas Priest or Black Sabbath arent metal is absurdly ignorant.  These two bands, along with a group of others are largely responsible for creating the genre's foundations.  As somebody once said, and I agree with, is that Sabbath brought the "heavy" and Priest brought the "metal"....listen to a few tracks from each band, and think about that statement...it actually makes sense.

Than also, don't forget bands who took it to the next level early on....Venom, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Celtic frost, Sepultura (those guys go back farther than you think...look up their early 80's releases Bestial Devastation, and Morbid Visions...who was THAT heavy and abrasive back than?  Not many).  Theres MANY, MANY more I can list.

Sure, metal gets more and more "extreme" as years go by, and each subsequent generation tries to outdo the previous.  but it really doesn't make the early bands less heavy by comparison...just a different flavor, or attitude.  One thing I see alot of is younger bands who arent even fully aware and educated in the roots of their own genre.  Many younger bands seem to think metal really started with Pantera (which obviously it didn't...but yes, saying they were a great, and obviously highly influential band would be a gross understatement).  I feel like alot of newer bands have lost sight of that spark and attitude that makes metal so great.  So many bands seems to focus more and more on speedy chops, the 'ultimate breakdown' (really done to death now...breakdown we're originally about groove...but their so overdone and overused now, that I rarely hear the groove and impact of a well placed one anymore).  Maybe I'm just showing my age (I'll be 30 in a few months *shivers*) but this is something I'm seeing alot of.  Not to say their arent newer bands I don't like....theres quite a few great ones....Scar Symmetry, Hate Eternal, Skeleton Witch,  Arsis, Kampfar, and others.

I admit, the whole sub-genre thing has gotten crazy.  Like, the SLIGHTEST variance in approach warrants a new category these days.  In some ways, I think that further reinforces an adherence to a formula or approach that may in the end stifle further creativity....pigeon-holing, as it's often called.  I think many people aren't even AWARE of that impact.

Now, the upside of whole labeling thing is it DOES make things somewhat easier from a marketing standpoint.  I know this all too well as I often struggle with what to label even the music I myself create.  I mix so many elements of various metal genres, it doesn't really sit well within many of the more commonly accepted parameters.  The upside is maybe, just maaaaaybe I've succeeded in creating something uniquely my own, the downside is this really makes it hard to pin down a target audience.  I think many bands know thier target audience, and for better or worse, play to that.  On some levels I envy that.  On the other hand, I'm glad I'm not pigeon holed.  Also...I'm also painfully aware that unique, and original doesn't automatically qualify something as good or breakthrough.  And thats really for others to decide. 

Shit...long post is loooong.....but metal is my life's passion.  And not just death metal, or black metal, or doom metal, or thrash metal, or heavy metal, but bits and pieces of all of the above (though I strongly lean in the direction of black, doom, and old-school death metal in my own creative style...and in my listening thrash as well, but it doesn't come up as much in my actual song writing).

Bottom line: Labels are sometimes helpful, and sometimes not.  In the end whats truly important is listening to and creating what moves YOU.  It's all about attitude and heart (be it blackened or otherwise!)


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## Sinister Exaggerator (Oct 30, 2009)

that is a lot of words

I like super obscure genre labels. It helps keep my iTunes playlist organized, man.


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## Open_wound_ (Oct 31, 2009)

Infernal War plays better than Deep purple. Cattle decapitation got better lyrics than The doors. Dir en greyÂ´s Ouroboros is better than Pink FloydÂ´s The Wall. Black and death metal are boring but not as much as The beatles. So I guess that metal is much better than rock ^^;


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## Dyluck (Oct 31, 2009)

Open_wound_ said:


> list of biased opinions



Ok.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 31, 2009)

the doors literally suck


they never stopped sucking


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## Dyluck (Oct 31, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> the doors literally suck
> 
> 
> they never stopped sucking



But not as much as you do OH



OHHHHHH


OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH




OOOOHHHOOOOHHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH

Seriously though shut the fuck up your opinion means less than nothing.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 31, 2009)

someone loves the doors


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## Jelly (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah, I don't know, dude.
The Doors are extraordinarily terrible.


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## Dyluck (Oct 31, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> someone loves the doors



I have listened to them maybe twice.


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 31, 2009)

david stop getting riled up over internet opinions


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## Dyluck (Oct 31, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> david stop getting riled up over internet opinions



You have never seen me even slightly riled. :V


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## Endless Humiliation (Oct 31, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> You have never seen me even slightly riled. :V



well whatever you call it


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## Open_wound_ (Oct 31, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> You have never seen me even slightly riled. :V


 
The doors sucks even if you donÂ´t want to!


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## VÃ¶lf (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah this is getting a little off topic


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