# [POLL]Has the fandom changed in worse or in better over the years?



## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 16, 2021)

Basically, the title, if you vote please give also an explanation for it.

I'll start:
I voted *WORSE*, the reason is pretty much talking about the community side.
About 7 years ago, you could see users and artists chat, talk, discuss without problems, meanwhile, right now there seems to be an invisible wall that is dictated by how popular you are.
Sort of like high school.
And I guess a big part of it it's because big artists that have a business nowadays even have a high fear of cancel culture in the fandom where everything gets out of control pretty quickly.
It's pretty hard to make new friends because of close circles of 3-4 friends, I noticed that even on discord, small groups of friends sometimes interact in very meme-y ways without much meaning behind, but after that return to their small circle.

I feel like the community is becoming way too inclusive and judgemental starting with these points: -Fursona, Quality of arts you can afford- personality and all that seems to fade into the background, and I'm noticing that sometimes I'm guilty of that too.

The artistic part has gotten much *BETTER, *quality, prices you can always find what you are looking for at various prices, the only downside is that a lot of artists now hide their arts behind sites like Patreon/Gumroad that didn't exist before, which I understand since... It's their job


TLDR: Relationships have become worse and high-school like while the artistic side of the fandom has gotten MUCH better.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 16, 2021)

I despise what Twitter and social media did to the fandom. Cause apparently you are a bad person for saying the f word 10 years ago.
Not too pleased with the direction in terms of social status. I especially hate the over inclusiveness but that was always there, it's only now that stuff comes to light that there are shitbags like Sangie and Kero being shielded. Can't comment on artist interaction though, don't really try to reach out to them, and don't really care too. I do have some reservations about some potential arrogance on their part I suppose


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## TyraWadman (Aug 16, 2021)

Personally, I've never had good and long-lasting relationships formed online. I've always been proactively trying to find my place but of course, it ends up with me basically trying to be something I'm not, realizing it, and moving on. 

Its been this way since I joined in 2010 and still is now. People want to ride the high and be entertained. Very few actutally enjoy being down on earth and just discussing things, and of course there are the landslide of people that will take a sneeze as a personal attack just because they happen to feel that they fit the bill on some way. 

I feel the community has gotten better. Its no longer just one thing and diversity can be great. I prefer it since, a lot of the time, I don't even care for whatever is trending. I'm here to create, not to fap. So I often favorite things that make me chuckle or something artistic that I liked about it (lines, colour palettes, etc).

Cancel culture has always been a thing. Its just being sensationalized nowadays because it gets more views. People have always liked drama and will always do anything to incite it. 

Things are much less cliquey and you can breathe. There will always be pockets of cliques for sure, but at least you no longer have to worry about mods and their friends essentially circling you, waiting for you to prove your worth to them. That's what people can do privately on discord! XD

In a lot of ways the art has gotten better, but that probably has a lot to do with every artists improvement over the past ten years! The downside is we now have to deal with more scammers and impersonation more than ever.


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## Rimna (Aug 16, 2021)

Honestly? For the worse. Earlier this year I deleted my old forum account because I didn't want to be associated with the fandom. It's(the fandom) become home to extremists who don't want to accept the idea that different people may hold different believes and views, thus fighting till their dying breath to get "the last word". It gets really old after a while, and ignoring and blocking people doesn't help since their shit keeps getting brought up everywhere all the time.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 16, 2021)

Rimna said:


> Honestly? For the worse. Earlier this year I deleted my old forum account because I didn't want to be associated with the fandom. It's(the fandom) become home to extremists who don't want to accept the idea that different people may hold different believes and views, thus fighting till their dying breath to get "the last word". It gets really old after a while, and ignoring and blocking people doesn't help since their shit keeps getting brought up everywhere all the time.


Fucking preach.


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## ZalexZTK (Aug 16, 2021)

I think this question isn't going to have a straightforward answer. It's kind of hard to determine how we as individuals think this community is because most of us aren't necessarily in it. I agree with these social walls and being popular vs. being one of thousands with a name or face outside the circle, and that leaves us with our community being the people outside the circle.

Solely based off my experiences as an outer-circle gay guy (relevant to my opinion, not trying to flex my preferences), I can say that this community is not in a good spot. Every single furry I've met has essentially disappeared. Not one has stayed, and I've summed it up to two points:

• You have something they want and you gave it to them
• You don't have something they want and they realized it

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone. However, I've gone through (and this is just an estimated number) at the least 50 male furries throughout my span of being a furry, and each and every one has followed these two points. That's terrible.

The absolute most common thing they want that you can give them are pictures of yourself naked. If you don't have giant flags all over yourself stating you do not partake in sending pictures of that nature, 80% of the time that's what the guy is after. Even then with those flags you're still going to get the people who don't care to read anything about you. It's so bad, some people might choose to give out their pictures just so they can filter out the people who feign interest, in the hopes of finding someone they can get to know. After all is said and done, once your pictures have been given, either some chatter will be given (usually compliments like "you're so hot") and that'll be it, or they may come back a few more times for more before eventually fizzling out. They always fizzle out. The big proc is having any sort of nsfw art with your fursona. Having any of it somehow makes people assume you're into getting raunchy with anyone.

The second point is split between standing firm on not sending nsfw pictures and when a guy comes to you with interest in starting a relationship. I've had one furry come back from the dead a year later with sudden interest in getting to know me. Not long after spending maybe a day with me did they reveal they were interested in dating someone, implying that I could be a candidate. As you might imagine, this didn't sit well, and lo and behold when they realized I wasn't it they went back to their grave. Hell I met a furry in a graphics card server months ago, they went on to ask for nudes, and after denying them they died. You can put "no rp" in your bio, get some cat dude making puns every sentence and putting their rp asterisks on you, and when you don't reciprocate POOF, they're gone.

Imagine people sucking up to you to get what they want, intentionally or not, and leaving when it doesn't go their way. After 50 times, you'd think I'm a puddle on the floor. I'm a strong guy, I've come back from worse, but for the normal furry, this can destroy confidence, create anxiety, and cause depression. This is not okay, and it's the norm amongst guys in this outer-circle.

Tell me this isn't a problem. How is it so hard to make friends in a community that advertises itself as open and welcoming?

Now let's be more realistic. Obviously not every single male furry I've interacted with has behaved this way. A lot of furries have trouble keeping a conversation, or have one or two hobbies that make it difficult to diversify topics. That's the most common problem I've experienced in the community, and while it sucks as someone looking to make friends, I can understand that not everyone can be as "fun" as I can. A lot of furries suffer from things like depression and social anxiety. However, when 30/50 (estimated, probably a bit lower) of these furries are messaging you because they want in your pants, are desperate for companionship, spend so much time with you and cut off unexpectedly, when you complain about yet another furry to your non-furry friend and even they start to agree that furries suck, there is a clear problem with the quality of people in the community. I know nothing about you ladies in the community, but damn the men suck here. Thanks for watching, like and subscribe.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 16, 2021)

You basically described the whole furry fandom, but I never encountered people adding me just for nudes so far.


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## Regret (Aug 16, 2021)

I definitely feel like the increasing politicization and use of social media such as twitter has had a profoundly negative impact on the social aspect of the fandom.  No longer do people bond over their similarities, but crucify each other for minute differences.  Artistically it seems about the same as it was ten years ago, though the various styles come and go, but I do feel like the quality of fursuits has improved.

Overall, I feel that the fandom has gotten worse, though that can be a result of me getting older, rose tinted glasses for the past where things seemed more "innocent" and "fun," or my multi-year absence from interacting with the fandom which allowed for a more stark contrast.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Aug 16, 2021)

I put "IDK" as there are multiple reasons why I don't look like I engage a whole lot with the fandom.

Social interactions are NOT a strong suit of mine and will never be.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 16, 2021)

It always had its issues but it's gotten much, much worse.


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## The_biscuits_532 (Aug 16, 2021)

ZalexZTK said:


> I think this question isn't going to have a straightforward answer. It's kind of hard to determine how we as individuals think this community is because most of us aren't necessarily in it. I agree with these social walls and being popular vs. being one of thousands with a name or face outside the circle, and that leaves us with our community being the people outside the circle.
> 
> Solely based off my experiences as an outer-circle gay guy (relevant to my opinion, not trying to flex my preferences), I can say that this community is not in a good spot. Every single furry I've met has essentially disappeared. Not one has stayed, and I've summed it up to two points:
> 
> ...


Shit like this is one of a handful of reasons why commissioning or making nsfw art isn't something I've felt comfortable enough to do.


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## TyraWadman (Aug 16, 2021)

Wait, people are asking for random nudes? 
I just get harassed for free art requests!

I feel like y'all are forgetting that seeking companionship and looking for fap material has kinda always been one of the most common uses of the internet. Phone sex, sexting, roleplaying... I'd see it more as a society thing than a fandom thing. XD


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## Punji (Aug 16, 2021)

I voted IDK because the answer is subjective and I haven't been active in the community at all for very long, little more than a few years at most.

But as for myself, things only ever seem to get better for me. Meeting new friends, finding new content creators to follow, having fun the whole time! If anything I got most of the bad stuff out of the way already here on the FAF at least.

I've never had people ask me for nudes (where inappropriate at least ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)) and as far as I know no one has ever tried to manipulate me for anything substantial. Is this really a problem for many people? Maybe I'm just lucky, but I think the fandom is a good place.

(Is everything and everyone good? No, of course not. But overall things are nice).


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## TyraWadman (Aug 16, 2021)

Punji said:


> I voted IDK because the answer is subjective and I haven't been active in the community at all for very long, little more than a few years at most.
> 
> But as for myself, things only ever seem to get better for me. Meeting new friends, finding new content creators to follow, having fun the whole time! If anything I got most of the bad stuff out of the way already here on the FAF at least.
> 
> ...


Aren't you the leader of that man-booty cult?


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## Punji (Aug 16, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Aren't you the leader of that man-booty cult?


I don't know what you mean.


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## Rimna (Aug 16, 2021)

Regret said:


> I definitely feel like the increasing politicization and use of social media such as twitter has had a profoundly negative impact on the social aspect of the fandom.  No longer do people bond over their similarities, but crucify each other for minute differences.  Artistically it seems about the same as it was ten years ago, though the various styles come and go, but I do feel like the quality of fursuits has improved.
> 
> Overall, I feel that the fandom has gotten worse, though that can be a result of me getting older, rose tinted glasses for the past where things seemed more "innocent" and "fun," or my multi-year absence from interacting with the fandom which allowed for a more stark contrast.



Hmm I don't know if it's just rose-tinted glasses. I remember a time in the fandom when people didn't want to kill me simply because I am born in a certain country. I also remember being able to talk about simple everyday things without getting them politicized.

Generally, the chances of encountering a crazy extremist were lower a few years ago.


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## FlooferWoofer (Aug 16, 2021)

It's made me better I think, but I stay away from Twitter and especially Ferzu. Both are rife with call-outs, slap fights, sh-tposting, politics, and petty high school drama and mods are zero help especially on Ferzu. Plus if you aren't 'popular' or part of the 'old boy's club' you might as well be screaming into a vacuum. Despite that, I understand that humans are the most flawed, dysfunctional animals the Earth has ever seen and anywhere humans congregate, drama and exploitation will be found, whether you're part of the furry fandom, football fandom, or ANY fandom. The only way to avoid it is to be a perpetual lurker and never participate which I have tried and that is quite lonely. But all the drama has less to do with 'drama prone furries' and more to do with that pesky human condition we all wish to hide behind the veneer of a happy pastel animal.

What binds us all together is that we all recognize humans suck sometimes and want to be something else more cuddly and innocent and I will always love this fandom for the good parts. I learned to separate that cancer from the fandom because at the end of the day, we all just want to feel comfortable in our own skin, make friends, and find some meaning in life.

Do you know how much fursuiting has helped me come out of my shell? A chronically depressed shut-in who was too awkward to make new friends? I cherish every message, reaction, and random stranger hug I get at every con I go to.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 16, 2021)

It was fine until minors and puritans started thinking they owned everything.


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## Troj (Aug 16, 2021)

I voted "Better" because I think we're mostly getting better at setting boundaries, calling out bad behavior (albeit with some false positives and false negatives in the mix), and doing PR. But, social media has been a blessing and a curse for sure, and I'm saddened by the more recent political divides and fights in the fandom.


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## Nexus Cabler (Aug 16, 2021)

Better in some ways, worse in others.

The fandom is always changing, sometimes we are all cool with each other and there's little issues, other times there's events or periods where conflict becomes a part of waking up every day.

My idea is to stay in the fandom, see what changes in a few years down the road from now. I like to think of it like those analogies of civilizations rising, falling, and rebuilding, but instead of civilizations, it's animal costumers and really good porn X3.


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## Minerva_Minx (Aug 17, 2021)

Better.  Change isn't always a bad thing.

If you go looking for the bad, you are going to find it.  People are very good at being horrid to each other.  So much so that being nice can be construed as being disingenuous.

That being said, the level of self-policing has gone up, at a cost.  Certain things are now taboo,but it's ok.  We also seem to be moremindful of minors and different opinions.  Wether this is just normal constriction or bleeding off to discord or other areas remains to be seen.


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## LameFox (Aug 17, 2021)

Some things seem better, other things seem worse. I mostly only interact on the art side of it though.



Tahr_Yrre said:


> About 7 years ago, you could see users and artists chat, talk, discuss without problems, meanwhile, right now there seems to be an invisible wall that is dictated by how popular you are.
> Sort of like high school.
> And I guess a big part of it it's because big artists that have a business nowadays even have a high fear of cancel culture in the fandom where everything gets out of control pretty quickly.



I'd say it's more the level of attention they're exposed to. Social media has centralized a lot of internet communities over the last decade or so. Popular users get way more people wanting to talk to them than anyone can realistically deal with. Other popular users are a more constant, recognizable face in the forever shifting crowd.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 17, 2021)

Regret said:


> I definitely feel like the increasing politicization and use of social media such as twitter has had a profoundly negative impact on the social aspect of the fandom.  No longer do people bond over their similarities, but crucify each other for minute differences.  Artistically it seems about the same as it was ten years ago, though the various styles come and go, but I do feel like the quality of fursuits has improved.
> 
> Overall, I feel that the fandom has gotten worse, though that can be a result of me getting older, rose tinted glasses for the past where things seemed more "innocent" and "fun," or my multi-year absence from interacting with the fandom which allowed for a more stark contrast.


I disagree about fursuits. Right now they are all the same style, recolor of toony-like style fursuits. I could look at 10 different canines fursuits and the only differences I would notice are the fur's color and the height of the people wearing it...
Besides, nowadays it feels like people get a fursuit only to get more attention rather than to have more fun at cons.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 17, 2021)

So basically reading all the answers:
The fandom is a worse place and the solution could be easily solved if people stopped using toxic places with little regulation (Twitter, Ferzu, social media in general?), because furries can't behave properly in these situations with > 
1. politic is a huge problem nowadays that causes drama (Even if I have only seen Americans do this to be fair) 
2. There aren't enough controls to keep minors out of NSFW places.
3. Getting friends, in general, has gotten harder because of drama, cancel culture, and people being afraid in general( Which is the opposite of how someone should feel in a fandom)
4. overly-horny(we are all horny sometimes bu yeah) being normalized by some people is gross.


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## Attaman (Aug 17, 2021)

I'll be real with people: Dropping even the "Blatantly political and thus against FAF rules to bring up, why do people keep stirring that pot / swinging a bat at that bee's nest then acting like the harmed party when it invariably turns into a shitshow?" reasons for why the(edit: They argue the) fandom's got worse, a lot of people _really_ have blinkers as to what the fandom was like even just a decade ago.

For starters, I'm far less aware of people in the fandom using cropped porn avatars on approximately PG-related forums and web communities. Because that was a thing for a while. Likewise asking non-Furry forums to change their rules specifically to allow Furry smut to be posted. To say nothing of how I can remember the time when the fandom could and would let _anyone_ in the door as a matter of convenience, even when they were _very explicitly known to be bad news_, only you didn't even need to be a "popufur" to get away with it ("Yeah, they may groom minors. _Buuuuuut_, can we _really_ kick them out?"). The fandom at least has some basic level of self-policing now where it'll drop people (occasionally even a popular person, as a certain fox dropped by tens of thousands on Twitter recently showed) for shit like "Openly expresses a belief that some people are sub-human and treats fans in private like horseshit" or "Was discovered to diddle kids".

Some of y'all just upset that you can't make the same jokes (or 'jokes', in a few directly admitted cases) you made 10+ years ago and still get raucous laughter.


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## Vinfang (Aug 17, 2021)

Online environment is definitely worse, but the physical environment are better? 

I attended a furmeet in Toronto last week. It was a pleasant experience. Plenty of new blood joined the fandom during lockdown. It was easy to make new friends. No creepy vibes from attendees.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 17, 2021)

Eh... I voted the same on this one. As I don't see much fluctuation in the overall environment, (in all honesty).... either for better, or for worse .... and so, I guess - there's no real change, from my perspective.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 17, 2021)

Attaman said:


> I'll be real with people: Dropping even the "Blatantly political and thus against FAF rules to bring up, why do people keep stirring that pot / swinging a bat at that bee's nest then acting like the harmed party when it invariably turns into a shitshow?" reasons for why the(edit: They argue the) fandom's got worse, a lot of people _really_ have blinkers as to what the fandom was like even just a decade ago.
> 
> For starters, I'm far less aware of people in the fandom using cropped porn avatars on approximately PG-related forums and web communities. Because that was a thing for a while. Likewise asking non-Furry forums to change their rules specifically to allow Furry smut to be posted. To say nothing of how I can remember the time when the fandom could and would let _anyone_ in the door as a matter of convenience, even when they were _very explicitly known to be bad news_, only you didn't even need to be a "popufur" to get away with it ("Yeah, they may groom minors. _Buuuuuut_, can we _really_ kick them out?"). The fandom at least has some basic level of self-policing now where it'll drop people (occasionally even a popular person, as a certain fox dropped by tens of thousands on Twitter recently showed) for shit like "Openly expresses a belief that some people are sub-human and treats fans in private like horseshit" or "Was discovered to diddle kids".
> 
> Some of y'all just upset that you can't make the same jokes (or 'jokes', in a few directly admitted cases) you made 10+ years ago and still get raucous laughter.


I completely disagree, I would put some examples of this stuff happening nowadays and people being forgiven because they are popular or own furry sites, but I don't want to get banned.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 17, 2021)

Vinfang said:


> Online environment is definitely worse, but the physical environment are better?
> 
> I attended a furmeet in Toronto last week. It was a pleasant experience. Plenty of new blood joined the fandom during lockdown. It was easy to make new friends. No creepy vibes from attendees.


There are no cons where I am from.
I attended a few furs-meets in cities but they wouldn't refrain from making sexual jokes or wearing partial/full fursuits, which would result in a lot of stares from bystanders and people in general.


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## ConorHyena (Aug 17, 2021)

Everything was better in the old days.

_Always._


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## Sven Solitude (Aug 17, 2021)

I didn't vote, since I'm not around here long enough. Though, I was active in the fandom for a while 2 years ago. But otherwise mostly just lurking and enjoying art etc.
When I was active around the fandom back then, I thought it's not a good place after all. But now I'm happy to be around. So, what changed?
I changed. I struggled with my own problems, it was easier to get attracted by negative stuff. I changed as a person and my goal was to only allow positivity in my life, no matter how hard it might be. Again, I'm not voting, but if I would, I would vote "Same". There will always be good and bad things in the world. The question is often: am I more attracted to the good or bad stuff? Am I willing to welcome positivity in my life?


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## O.D.D. (Aug 17, 2021)

ConorHyena said:


> Everything was better in the old days.
> 
> _Always._


I don't see anyone here implying that but you


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## Regret (Aug 17, 2021)

Rimna said:


> Hmm I don't know if it's just rose-tinted glasses. I remember a time in the fandom when people didn't want to kill me simply because I am born in a certain country. I also remember being able to talk about simple everyday things without getting them politicized.


Damn, that's fucking repugnant and I'm terribly sorry that you have been subjected to such xenophobic and racist rhetoric.  The more I look back, the less and less it seems like it was rose-tinted glasses and more the reality of the times.


Rimna said:


> Generally, the chances of encountering a crazy extremist were lower a few years ago.


Totally.  I mean there was always a few that were known, but they were little more than living memes and a nuiscance if you had the misfortune of crossing their paths.


Tahr_Yrre said:


> I disagree about fursuits. Right now they are all the same style, recolor of toony-like style fursuits. I could look at 10 different canines fursuits and the only differences I would notice are the fur's color and the height of the people wearing it...


Fair point.  I was mainly referring to the overall build quality and the heavier use of electronic components for various effects, but I do see where you are coming from.


Tahr_Yrre said:


> Besides, nowadays it feels like people get a fursuit only to get more attention rather than to have more fun at cons.


I kind of always felt and thought that was one of the reasons regardless.  Maybe its happening more now I just haven't noticed.


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## ssaannttoo (Aug 17, 2021)

I've been looking through some of the submissions here and it got me thinking. I've only started being active in the fandom a year ago, when I joined FAF. From that time to now I've not seen much change, but I have gotten more involved. Though im happy with where its at, (Doesn't mean we cant improve) However I don't think the fandom alone needs to improve, but humans as a whole with just being kind to one another ya know? Things unique to the fandom that I would want improved are probably all on the sexual side. The cancel culture is something that I think is important but often times goes out of bounds because people come to conclusions without much though *Shrugs*

I think just like everything in life there is much improvement to be done, and the only way we can do that is by working together. ITs a fandom after all, not just YOU or ME. its all of us, and the only way to make it better is to work together! >w<


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## Attaman (Aug 17, 2021)

Tahr_Yrre said:


> I completely disagree, I would put some examples of this stuff happening nowadays and people being forgiven because they are popular or own furry sites, but I don't want to get banned.


That doesn’t actually counter or contradict my point though. My point was that if you went back even just ten years ago, being popular in the fandom basically let you get away with anything short of murder so long as you said “Sowwy” afterwards. Nowadays… people still do (and unfortunately it’s been exposed as hella prevalent outside the fandom in other communities too), but there’s actually a line and occasionally shit does actually stick.

That said I have a hunch this is a case less of “People were held accountable then, unlike now” and more “What was considered something to be held accountable for has changed and I don’t like that some things are no longer acceptable / other things have become so.”

Which, like? In some regards mood: For an outside Furry example, I’m still fairly livid that “smut involving explicit minors” has basically become “Well if you don’t like it  Don’t look for it ” in a lot of visual art and fanfiction / writing communities. Absolutely terrible (and another reason I put a vote down for Furry getting better: It tends to be one of the few communities where general consensus remains “Actually that’s kinda fucky”).

But on the other, it’d be a hell of a bigger mood if nine times out of ten the changes to the Furry fandom that people loudly proclaim to hate weren’t things like “I can’t use slurs in jokes anymore”. Or “Stop drawing enby characters.”


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## Kinguyakki (Aug 17, 2021)

I had to vote for "worse," just because I think the openness and acceptance that originally drew people to the fandom has gotten to the point where people with some pretty serious issues see it as a place where they can be "protected."  They use the fandom as a place to express some pretty vile fantasies involving minors, animals, physical or sexual violence that they may or may not actually do in real life.  
I've seen people compare being in the fandom to their entire identity and talk about "coming out" to their family and friends about being a furry, like it's a sexual identity that they are uncertain or ashamed of.
What used to be a place for fun creativity and imagination has turned into a popularity contest and money-making with very little substance.  Lots of people who can't separate "silly fun" from "obnoxious, destructive immaturity and drama."  The bad reputation furries have is often well-deserved, we (as a fandom) earned it.

Not saying it's terrible all over.  There are some awesome people in the community and I've found a niche that I enjoy, so I'll stay there.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 17, 2021)

Kinguyakki said:


> I had to vote for "worse," just because I think the openness and acceptance that originally drew people to the fandom has gotten to the point where people with some pretty serious issues see it as a place where they can be "protected."  They use the fandom as a place to express some pretty vile fantasies involving minors, animals, physical or sexual violence that they may or may not actually do in real life.


The shielding for repugnant furries was always there I think, but it's ironic, that the one placed where Twitter could have made a difference and out weird fucks like Kero and the like just ended with a bunch of delusion furries acting like what he and the people involved in his group weren't at all wrong.
The fact that "Growly" a convicted sex offender was allowed to roam furry conventions for so long says so much of how rotten this Fandom's actual morals are. There are so many twisted individuals in the fandom that just get a pass because hurr durr popular.

Yes Twitter, go after the guy who made a crass joke 10 years ago, but that literal sex offender? Yeah. He's a great guy. Excellent fit for the community.
Amazing moral priorities.


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## ConorHyena (Aug 17, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> I don't see anyone here implying that but you



I'm being a sarcastic git.


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## DieselPowered (Aug 17, 2021)

The fandom's never been particularly good, home to society's rejects as it stereotypically is.

All sorts of damaged people come here, as do the bastards who can't make it anywhere else.
The naive ones tend to get preyed on, those that don't like their lives will shit on others just to make themselves feel better, and there's always been the veneer of what you project as opposed to who you really are. As if that fluffy animal thing you've designed is supposed to be better than the person underneath. It's always caused problems, it always will.

The constant games of "i'm better than you because x" don't help either. Too many furs shit on each other over petty bullshit and it just seems like a superiority contest half the time. We bring it on ourselves, and nothing's really changed over the years.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 17, 2021)

Attaman said:


> That doesn’t actually counter or contradict my point though. My point was that if you went back even just ten years ago, being popular in the fandom basically let you get away with anything short of murder so long as you said “Sowwy” afterwards. Nowadays… people still do (and unfortunately it’s been exposed as hella prevalent outside the fandom in other communities too), but there’s actually a line and occasionally shit does actually stick.
> 
> That said I have a hunch this is a case less of “People were held accountable then, unlike now” and more “What was considered something to be held accountable for has changed and I don’t like that some things are no longer acceptable / other things have become so.”
> 
> ...


Then I misunderstood what you were trying to say, sorry.


----------



## SolDirix (Aug 17, 2021)

I think it may be improving, but then again so is everything else now that we are coming out of the pandemic. Furmeets and conventions are slowly opening up again, and I've met a lot of chill furs in VRChat and other places online. 

I know furry drama has always been an issue, and I don't think it will go away any time soon, but at the end of the day it's all about who you decide to hang with. I've never had a lot of issues with drama, because I'm always very particular about who I hang with and screen people before deciding to commit to a friendship. I look for red flags like constant complaining, superiority complexes, and clingy, abusive, or toxic behavior.

I've met plenty of people who show those traits, and I try to cut them out of my life as soon as I notice. I don't need that in my life.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 18, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> The shielding for repugnant furries was always there I think, but it's ironic, that the one placed where Twitter could have made a difference and out weird fucks like Kero and the like just ended with a bunch of delusion furries acting like what he and the people involved in his group weren't at all wrong.
> The fact that "Growly" a convicted sex offender was allowed to roam furry conventions for so long says so much of how rotten this Fandom's actual morals are. There are so many twisted individuals in the fandom that just get a pass because hurr durr popular.
> 
> Yes Twitter, go after the guy who made a crass joke 10 years ago, but that literal sex offender? Yeah. He's a great guy. Excellent fit for the community.
> Amazing moral priorities.


The doors of the fandom being wide open for decades has led to a LOT of unsavory folks walking right in and establishing their own networks within the fandom.  This is before you get into the weirdness of the various cliques and how some of them will shield for bad people, while going after bad people OUTSIDE of their clique (who do the same shit as the bad people inside their clique, at times).

And then there's the various stripes of "people will totally take my important message more seriously if I use the furry fandom as my soapbox" types who just suck ALL the fun out of absolutely everything they touch.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Aug 18, 2021)

As a non-furry/degenerate who likes yiff,  I think the fandom has become worse. The fetishism and porn was always there, even dating as far back as the late 90s and early 2000s, compared to now, it's just easier to see. I voted worse because in my opinion, the fandom has become a lot more jaded and cynical. At least when furries were drawing crazy yiff back in the day, they were at least doing it with a smile and had small tight-knit communities.  Now the fandom is a lot more self-aware and a bit unfriendly. It's like everyone became British? I'm not sure how to word it properly.


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## TyraWadman (Aug 18, 2021)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> As a non-furry/degenerate who likes yiff,  I think the fandom has become worse. The fetishism and porn was always there, even dating as far back as the late 90s and early 2000s, compared to now, it's just easier to see. I voted worse because in my opinion, the fandom has become a lot more jaded and cynical. At least when furries were drawing crazy yiff back in the day, they were at least doing it with a smile and had small tight-knit communities.  Now the fandom is a lot more self-aware and a bit unfriendly. It's like everyone became British? I'm not sure how to word it properly.


I believe there's the saying of, 'things haven't actually changed, you've just become more aware of it' or something similar to that. 
Shit's always been there. Some just didn't smell it right away. X) 
Or planted it there themselves...


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Aug 18, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> I believe there's the saying of, 'things haven't actually changed, you've just become more aware of it' or something similar to that.
> Shit's always been there. Some just didn't smell it right away. X)
> Or planted it there themselves...


Yeah, this. The crazy stuff didn't just magically appear, but once the internet became easily available and open to everyone, EVERYONE gets a platform. Now the denizens of the internet get to witness people like Kero the Wolf, who thinks animals are just asking for it. The only nice thing about it is that it provides a chance for all walks of life, and that platform also gets to double as a stand for a firing squad.


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## Filter (Aug 18, 2021)

Better in some ways, and worse in others. I miss the old furry fandom like I miss the old YouTube. Nowadays, everything seems monetized or a competition for followers and likes. We used to draw these characters for fun, comment frequently on each other's art, and just have a good time with it. The scene feels more corporate and maybe a little less creative than it was. This may turn around eventually. I don't think the future is bleak. in fact, I think the best is yet to come. At present, however, the fandom is dealing with the same dark side of social media that other communities are dealing with. When those issues have been addressed, I think there may be a return to form, but I don't expect that to happen overnight.

Other positives: The genre isn't as obscure as it once was, the fursuits look better, and we can play furry characters in VR (even with full body-tracking). In fact, I think we're on our way to a digitally-enhanced reality of advanced furry AR and VR avatars, kind of like Ready Player One... but with more animal people.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Aug 18, 2021)

Result first: I voted IDK.

Whole fandom-wise, honestly I don't know 

FAF-wise, as a newbie with like 2~3 years since the account creation without any involvement till that point, and as I haven't been as active as my initial period here, I couldn't notice too much change. (Minus many people I spotted back then were mostly either gone busy or something, or were banned for some reasons)

But what I discovered during my participation on FAF, is that there are more requests/commissions/adopts etc than any others these days(eg: discussions, forum games). To be precise, the former seems to be the same(if not being slightly increased) while the latter is gradually decreasing.

This makes me less likely to visit FAF, as all I see is the art dealing stuff...(which I already see plenty opportunities on other places than FA&F)

Is it worse? It may depend. Personally, it may be considered worse in terms of FAF's purpose unless this is FATF:Furry Art Trading Forums, not FAF. (Don't get me wrong though, I'm an artist too)

But other than that.. well... perhaps artists and commissioners would prefer how it's going? That may give some plus, rendering the overall state being so-so, I guess.

Trivia:
I suppose I set my aim well--to interact neutrally to anyone I encounter, and give everyone moderate amount of care upon encountering. Those who I manage to get closer in relationship here, I tend to move that to other platforms(eg: going to Discord together). Those who ain't, I simply keep treating them the same, in a safe distance(maybe).

Good thing I'm never disturbed by not being able to interact and get closer with individuals, as that's very likely in virtual space like FAF, especially with those overwhelming art trade stuffs(which I have no reason to react to them most of the time).


Edit: The 'severity' of art trade ratio is somehow reduced at the moment.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Aug 18, 2021)

In full honesty I don’t think much has changed.
Same shit. Same good stuff. Maybe more worse though.

Only reason I’d say worse is based on personal experience, I’ve seen more people just be more toxic that I wouldn’t be surprised if the fandom went down the toxic rabbit hole and became a toxic place.
A lot of the communities are still toxic, but the entire fandom has yet to reach that point.

This place isn’t bad but I still just feel like even this place is slowly pushing me away. But that might just be me being dumb.

Otherwise nothing has really changed much in a major way, but I’d still say for sake of poll worse in general.
It definitely still has some good, but you’ll find more bad than good now and before I’d say you can still find good stuff if you look for it, now you have to actively weed through the bad.


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## Attaman (Aug 18, 2021)

Considering how many people are talking about online fandom stuff, I have to wonder how much of the complaints relate less to the fandom _specifically_ and more changes that have been made to online spaces _in general_.

For one very big example: Of all the various social media sites, _Tumblr_ is (somehow) the one that still lets you best cultivate what exactly you wish to see. Major social media, at least. Twitter keeps trying to roll out "Posts sorted by popularity, not chronologically" (with just earlier this summer them trying to stealthily remove chronological posting outright _and_ triple down on recommended tweets / hashtags), Facebook is a bit infamous for how it tries to hammer you with ads not just based on your activity but _people you know's_ activity (meaning the best way to control your Facebook experience is to not associate with anyone else on that website at all)... Tumblr still does the recommended post shit and whatnot, but by _literal default_ things are chronological and the only way your feed can be filled with nothing but ads is if you either follow nobody _or_ everyone you follow has been inactive for years.

"Tumblr is one of the least intrusive social media sites" is a hell of a thing to say, and encapsulates pretty handily one aspect of how the internet's changed in the last decade or so.

Then there's the general collapse of forum communities, increasing use / awareness of use of things like Ko-fi and Patreon and GoFundMe and whatnot for people to stay afloat (as well as further transparency meaning a lot more ease with which for people to pick apart people's online finances), resurgence of chat groups wherein you don't particularly know most of the people in them (relating in no small part back to changes to social media and the collapse of forums)...

This is yet _another_ reason I say the Fandom has generally got better, as I feel like most of the general complaints that can be leveled towards the Fandom aren't so much Furry's fault as changes to online stuff in general.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 18, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> The shielding for repugnant furries was always there I think, but it's ironic, that the one placed where Twitter could have made a difference and out weird fucks like Kero and the like just ended with a bunch of delusion furries acting like what he and the people involved in his group weren't at all wrong.
> The fact that "Growly" a convicted sex offender was allowed to roam furry conventions for so long says so much of how rotten this Fandom's actual morals are. There are so many twisted individuals in the fandom that just get a pass because hurr durr popular.
> 
> Yes Twitter, go after the guy who made a crass joke 10 years ago, but that literal sex offender? Yeah. He's a great guy. Excellent fit for the community.
> Amazing moral priorities.


@KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.

And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone _"isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth"_, (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.

There are indeed so-called "dangers" out there - in the community, (many believe)..... and there are also - those out there, that made simple mistakes in their lives and deserve a chance to amend their ways.

Just sayin'. ☺


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## O.D.D. (Aug 18, 2021)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> Yeah, this. The crazy stuff didn't just magically appear, but once the internet became easily available and open to everyone, EVERYONE gets a platform. Now the denizens of the internet get to witness people like Kero the Wolf, who thinks animals are just asking for it. The only nice thing about it is that it provides a chance for all walks of life, and that platform also gets to double as a stand for a firing squad.


There is a strong element here of increased awareness via the rapid proliferation of information (and sometimes misinformation) through Internet channels but isolating that as a cause is difficult without some hefty analytics, which I really doubt anyone would bother with in the context of the furry fandom - maybe as a more generalized study on Internet culture in general (someone might have already broached the subject in that sense).  What I've seen over the past decade or so looks to me like a pack of rabid dogs falling on each other and eviscerating everyone in their general vicinity using rationalizations that sound suspiciously post-hoc.


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## FlooferWoofer (Aug 18, 2021)

Oops, I misunderstood the question but my answers still better. There was a lot more blissful ignorance in the name of unfettered acceptance back then. Now, furs are much more willing to call out the nastiest elements of the fandom when they try to hide among us because you’re anonymous in a suit.

A certain infamous twice convicted someone with a growlithe fursona is still allowed at most cons and was even on convention committees and GoH at a few AFTER the fact but many furries absolutely lambasted those cons on Twitter. Those are call outs I can get behind and it’s a positive thing people are saying something about that.

Before people would bury their heads in the sand because he’s an old fur, but new furries don’t have that history or care. Anyway, we’re a mixed bag and there will always be creeps because of the anonymity attached to wearing a fullsuit, but it’s getting better.

I still love the fandom because hey, sometimes you need to sift through mud to find the diamonds in the rough. Sorry for the long post.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 18, 2021)

That particular bad person was so heavily entrenched within the fandom and the con scene that I suspect the reason he was able to stick around as long as he did was because he had serious kompromat on other personalities in the fandom.  He is a very manipulative person, it kind of comes with being a predator in the first place, and it would be a logical inference that he would endeavor to establish a "informational M.A.D." policy of sorts in order to effectively blackmail/extort other people into allowing him into spaces.  For every one of him I've seen half a dozen other people with at times questionable tastes/interests be chased about via social media dogpiles, and occasionally one of them does turn out to be an actual dirtbag.

The fandom has no shortage of dirtbags, to be sure - it's large enough and like I said, the doors were flung WIDE OPEN.  The fact that the current zeitgeist in the fandom looks more like a religious inquisition than an attempt at cleaning up concerns me.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 18, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> @KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.
> 
> And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone _"isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth"_, (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.
> 
> ...


You do you. Though, I'm not interested in being in the camp of keeping people like Kero and Growly in the fandom. The former is responsible for animal abuse, the latter has a record relating to inappropriate conduct with minors. Records like that bring real safety concerns. There are plenty others out there like them too, but nothing is ever done about these furries who could be a real harm to minors or to other animals. Are furries supposed to trust they simply won't offend again? Things like that wouldn't fly in any other fandom, people would rightfully worry about their conduct.

Yet, every time somebody speaks up about these dangers, there's a civil war in twitter instead of a logical, unanimous consensus that these people do not belong.
The whole second chances thing might apply if the crime were something like petty theft, and only if they showed true reform. Though, sexual abuse of minors or of an animal is pretty extreme and giving people like a second chance usually ends in them abusing again anyways. Is it fair to the people around them in the con even, to just let them in? That would put some of the people around them at risk, all predicated on their word and nothing more. It's needlessly dangerous, and I think this community desperately needs to have some basic standards.

As to what is or isn't dangerous for the community depends, yes. I'd like to think barring animals abusers and pedophiles is a pretty easy set of basic standards to adopt for the community. So yes, I find it revolting that so many furries on Twitter don't see an issue with these people. Then again, Twitter is the same place that the M.A.P movement started. So maybe the fandom isn't entirely to blame, just mostly.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 18, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> You do you. Though, I'm not interested in being in the camp of keeping people like Kero and Growly in the fandom. The former is responsible for animal abuse, the latter has a record relating to inappropriate conduct with minors. Records like that bring real safety concerns. There are plenty others out there like them too, but nothing is ever done about these furries who could be a real harm to minors or to other animals. Are furries supposed to trust they simply won't offend again? Things like that wouldn't fly in any other fandom, people would rightfully worry about their conduct.
> 
> Yet, every time somebody speaks up about these dangers, there's a civil war in twitter instead of a logical, unanimous consensus that these people do not belong.
> The whole second chances thing might apply if the crime were something like petty theft, and only if they showed true reform. Though, sexual abuse of minors or of an animal is pretty extreme and giving people like a second chance usually ends in them abusing again anyways. Is it fair to the people around them in the con even, to just let them in? That would put some of the people around them at risk, all predicated on their word and nothing more. It's needlessly dangerous, and I think this community desperately needs to have some basic standards.
> ...


Sexual abusers (of any stripe but in the context of this post animal/child abusers) have probably the highest rates of recidivism of any sort of criminal.  In the case of animal abuse of pretty much all sorts getting the authorities to take it seriously has been an uphill battle for decades, the feds are JUST NOW starting to actually take it seriously and a number of states in the USA still have massive gray zones in laws surrounding animals and abuse.

I don't think anybody but other sex pests wants more sex pests around, and that kind of leaves a question sort of dangling in the air regarding some of the more persistent menaces within the fandom and their connections.  How that question gets answered is almost certainly not on Twitter, or FAF, or anywhere but a court of law really.  Then there's issues with some members of the fandom having variably questionable tastes and preferences in the content they consume, and people immediately leaping to conclusions based on that and proceeding to bring various forms of harm to those individuals whether they warrant it or not.  There's a ton of forms of "furry content" I find variably distasteful or even outright repulsive but barring a select few individuals who produce/consume that content I really don't know if any of them are actually people that should not, for lack of a better term, be allowed within the fandom.


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## Kinguyakki (Aug 18, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> @KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.
> 
> And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone _"isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth"_, (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.
> 
> ...


A person might "accidentally" run a red light or speed.  A person might drink too much and make a fool of themselves, say some hurtful things.  

A person does not "accidentally" have sex with animals or prey on minors.  Especially when they have a history of doing it.  They don't need defenders or supporters, especially not within the fandom.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 18, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> @KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.
> 
> And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone _"isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth"_, (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.
> 
> ...


This has to be a troll or you are one of the reasons why I think the fandom is going down the sink.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Aug 18, 2021)

There are actually other statements I have wanted to say about the state of FAF in particular (especially chaining off of Attaman's "online spaces in general" statement), but I need a bit more time to phrase it right.

And I know better than to get into the aforementioned horror stories, I've gotten more than I've bargained for in the past trying to even ask about blatantly degenerate things attributed to furries.


I did want to address THIS while it was fresh:


Tahr_Yrre said:


> This has to be a troll or you are one of the reasons why I think the fandom is going down the sink.


From my experience with Connor's statements in the past, he's been more of a "forced contrarian" type through and through.

Occasionally it gets good, but this is not one of those situations where it works.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 18, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> From my experience with Connor's statements in the past, he's been more of a "forced contrarian" type through and through.


Habitual contrarians are assholes.  They're either in it to piss someone off or just tire everyone else out with their endless bullshit.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 19, 2021)

Well, hey...... *all of us* make mistakes in our lives; (that's largely my point, above).... and thus - *sometimes* a little "elbow room" is needed, and indeed - even required; when people make mistakes in their lives, and engage in past trangressions..... and then, (at a later time) - try to make amends for their ways.

Now, mind you: I'm largely speaking in general terms; and not about specific people or specific instances.

As there is an old saying, that goes: _"those in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"_.... and, (let's be honest here): just about everyone in their lives, has made some sort of major mistakes in their lives, and have done some major blunders (in the past), right?

And thus - it could be argued that those in the community (that have a rather "judgemental" attitude, it could be seen as) - shouldn't be hurling one's "judgemental stones" towards someone else - from the front porches of the glass houses - that we all live in..... right?

But.... in more serious cases, however - (such as those that enage in so-called "predatory behavior") - treatment, therapy, and eventually.... (hopefully): rehabilitation, is in the cards; where: the trangressor has not only paid his or her time, but also... is (hopefully) being reformed via these therapeutic interventions, which in turn: changes their hurtful behavior, allows their victim(s) to heal, and (eventually) better serves us all, in society, (in the long run)..... given that a former offender will now (hopefully) be contributing member to our society, once again.

And in those cases (especially) - sometimes giving people a second chance - is better for us all - than: waving one's middle finger in the air (so to speak) and saying he/she must now immediately "walk the plank"...... which, (as I posted above) - could be seen as a bit too harsh. 


KimberVaile said:


> You do you.


Eh.... I think I already do that....  but thanks for the tip. ☺


O.D.D. said:


> Habitual contrarians are assholes.


And, let's be honest here, also... are sometimes needed, when ever a convo goes too far in one direction.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 19, 2021)




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## Yakamaru (Aug 19, 2021)

...

Thought I'd be able to stay away from this dumpster fire, but nope. The hell kind of drugs are people on?


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## Kinguyakki (Aug 19, 2021)

I'


Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well, hey...... *all of us* make mistakes in our lives; (that's largely my point, above).... and thus - *sometimes* a little "elbow room" is needed, and indeed - even required; when people make mistakes in their lives, and engage in past trangressions..... and then, (at a later time) - try to make amends for their ways.
> 
> Now, mind you: I'm largely speaking in general terms; and not about specific people or specific instances.
> 
> ...


I've personally never tried to seduce or molest kids, and I don't have sex with animals.  

I've never stalked anyone, never raped anyone, and have no desire or inclinations to do so.  

These aren't things that happen by "accident."  They're not just little "oops" mistakes a person makes. 

They don't just have an "off day" and decide to molest a dog or manipulate a minor into doing sexual acts and then laugh it off like it was a weird phase and get on with life.

I am not obligated to forgive people who have done those things, because whether or not they say they are "rehabilitated" it doesn't change that they've victimized someone or something else for their own gratification.

If you're okay with hanging out with people who participate in those things, you go right ahead.  

You can help them "heal" and "change."  It's not really your place to tell the whole community that we should accept and welcome those who engage in that behavior.


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## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

Yakamaru said:


> ...
> 
> Thought I'd be able to stay away from this dumpster fire, but nope. The hell kind of drugs are people on?
> View attachment 119027


Youre just looking for more opportunities to flaunt your collection of reaction stickers. UuU


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## KimberVaile (Aug 19, 2021)

Why don't we complete the trifecta of degeneracy and throw incest in too? You know, just to add a cherry on the shit sundae here, it's not like I expect the fandom to be above it at this point.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

thread: *mostly civil discussion*
Connor: "needs more fire"
thread now:


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## MaelstromEyre (Aug 19, 2021)

I don't know if the community is better or worse.  A little of each in different areas, I guess.

Seeing anyone defend sex criminals of any kind within the fandom is a bit unnerving, especially to those who are survivors of that kind of crime.  

Sometimes pushing to accept or welcome a few individuals does more to push away many more others.  I've been in online groups (furry) where one individual was extremely toxic and manipulative.  He would break known rules and then try to argue with admins that the rule was "stupid," and if he didn't get the response he wanted from one admin, he'd just find another one to take his side.  When no one took his side, he'd have an absolute meltdown about not getting his way.  He was temporarily suspended from participating in the group, kind of a final warning, a final opportunity for him.  When he was allowed back in, he wasn't back two weeks before starting drama all over again, and he was finally banned.

The problem is, his behavior and the ongoing attempts to be patient with him ended up driving away a lot of good participants who just got sick of his tantrums.  They were there to just have fun, but it seemed like at least once a week he was making himself the dramatic victim.


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## Rimna (Aug 19, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Why don't we complete the trifecta of degeneracy and throw incest in too? You know, just to add a cherry on the shit sundae here, it's not like I expect the fandom to be above it at this point.



Whoa there, getting a bit sensitive are we? Haven't you ever like... Accidentally done the incest sometimes?

I'm being sarcastic of course. Child abuse and animal abuse aren't accidents or mistakes. One does not accidentally manipulate a minor or perform bestiality.

At least it doesn't take much for pedo and zoo defenders to crawl out of the woodwork.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

Getting this back on topic....

So, a few months ago there was a thread that was "how has the furry fandom changed" or something similar. Basically the same question, but without the qualifier of "better, same, worse, IDK." The responses were far more positive. There was also a thread asking whether the DA community or the FA community was "friendlier" - which, ignoring the bias, also had a lot of positive responses.

Here, I'm reading lots of folks complaining that it's worse because of twitter and ferzu... And that's it? Like the rest of the arguments seem to be the result of the commenter maturing - "we had so much porn and it was awesome" to now "all the porn is boring and lacks the spirit it once did." Sure you didn't get bored? As far as twitter and ferzu, you can just stay off them. You know, just like sensible people avoid FChan (or whatever the furry chan was) way back.

But, instead of shitting on y'all for being upset that modern twitter culture is toxic, fickle and dumb, I'm instead going to take you back to the halcyon years of 10-15 years ago, where internet furry culture was supposedly better. Here's how most forums worked:

1. Say something dumb? BANNED
2. Say something innocent, but doesn't match the invisible norms of a forum? BANNED
3. Contradict a mod? BANNED
4. Prove a mod's friend wrong? BANNED
5. Draw the ire of the wrong person? BANNED AND DOXXED
6. Say something edgy? Either BANNED or lauded, depending on if it was funny
7. Complain about something edgy? BANNED and called a pussy
8. It's Tuesday and your avatar is blue? BANNED

And people took great pleasure in screwing over newbies who didn't know the rules - it was hazing, but that was okay. That thread on how the furry fandom changed, it was page after page saying how much better it is now - FA forums used to be just like this. Back then, since this thread is a lot of whining, it would have gotten everyone banned for the sin of commenting on it. Granted, back then this attempt at a discussion would have been derailed intentionally by post 3 with dumpster fire pictures, meme-speak and nothing constructive. We were all younger and just accepted that's how it was, but really, internet culture has always been super toxic and people have been being cancelled for stupid shit forever. In other words - the worst part of twitter culture is nothing new, just different criteria. You know, toxic, fickle and dumb.

----------------

To answer the OP - I think it's the same, we just care more about certain behavior, and traded one issue for another. It's key to remember that as soon as you start caring about something, you'll see more of it. That doesn't mean there _is_ more of it, just that you care.

Nazi furs are gone (weirdest subgroup ever, given how many just thought the uniforms were cool and had no comprehension of the context). Burned fur debacle is over. Furries are generally more accepted. Forums are less of a cesspool. Not to mention you can find furry-related stuff so much more easily without it being bombarded by trolls. This is balanced off by some of the legitimate issues brought on by others.


----------



## Yakamaru (Aug 19, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Youre just looking for more opportunities to flaunt your collection of reaction stickers. UuU


.... No? XD

I've had this sticker for a while and posted it several times. Thought it was an appropriate sticker for this thread tho.


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> But, instead of shitting on y'all for being upset that modern twitter culture is toxic, fickle and dumb, I'm instead going to take you back to the halcyon years of 10-15 years ago, where internet furry culture was supposedly better. Here's how most forums worked:
> 
> 1. Say something dumb? BANNED
> 2. Say something innocent, but doesn't match the invisible norms of a forum? BANNED
> ...


That is how ALL internet venues currently work barring a select, tiny handful, the Internet is not the Wild West it was from 1995-2000something (and it wasn't quite as wild as people seem to remember unless you went into the REALLY dark corners) and it never, ever will be again.  Whether that's a good thing or not is going to depend on your personal tastes.


Ziggy Schlacht said:


> Forums are less of a cesspool.


Citation needed.  Some of the nastier people fled to places like Twitter, where discourse goes to die a fiery death.  Forums are now passe and more niche but as a result any remaining nasties have an inordinately magnified presence.


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## Balskarr (Aug 19, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well, hey...... *all of us* make mistakes in our lives; (that's largely my point, above).... and thus - *sometimes* a little "elbow room" is needed, and indeed - even required; when people make mistakes in their lives, and engage in past trangressions..... and then, (at a later time) - try to make amends for their ways.
> 
> Now, mind you: I'm largely speaking in general terms; and not about specific people or specific instances.
> 
> ...


If that last statement is truly how you feel then I think you should know you've gone too far in one direction.


----------



## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> That is how ALL internet venues currently work barring a select, tiny handful, the Internet is not the Wild West it was from 1995-2000something (and it wasn't quite as wild as people seem to remember unless you went into the REALLY dark corners) and it never, ever will be again.  Whether that's a good thing or not is going to depend on your personal tastes.


The folks here who get banned tend to deserve it a lot more than used to be the norm. There's no "*User does stupid shit in asterisks* - User is banned" type moderating, nor stuff like "It's Tuesday, banned." You're also at much less risk to get doxxed because you seem like an easy mark*. The change, I might add, was very gradual, but I don't think you'd willingly participate in a forum like this from a decade ago now. One thing to remember is also if one was good at rolling with the crowd, then one probably very much enjoyed their time and doesn't necessarily remember it was bad.  



O.D.D. said:


> Citation needed.  Some of the nastier people fled to places like Twitter, where discourse goes to die a fiery death.  Forums are now passe and more niche but as a result any remaining nasties have an inordinately magnified presence.


IMGUR isn't much better - short messages and rapid chatter is terrible for discourse. But this argument would imply to me things have actually gotten better. If the true shitheads are on twitter, that means they're quarantined in something that, well, I don't need to deal with if I want to talk furry. And while there are still some (though the ones I'm thinking of are all presently banned), I would hardly call them amplified in a negative way. When it's one really bad voice in sea of good ones, versus a number of bad voices in pool of good ones, it's a lot easier to identify and ignore the bad. 

That being said, my overall assessment was "it's the same, we just changed problems." You haven't said anything to contradict that. 

*Doxxed because the internet hate machine has decided your views are wrong however...


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> The folks here who get banned tend to deserve it a lot more than used to be the norm.


This forum is not a good benchmark for the norm IMO


Ziggy Schlacht said:


> There's no "*User does stupid shit in asterisks* - User is banned" type moderating, nor stuff like "It's Tuesday, banned."


That's something I see on the regular in a lot of other places (including Reddit really, but Reddit sucks)


Ziggy Schlacht said:


> You're also at much less risk to get doxxed because you seem like an easy mark*.





Ziggy Schlacht said:


> *Doxxed because the internet hate machine has decided your views are wrong however...


Doxing is all the rage now and it's just increased because of that second caveat, the first qualifier has not decreased/disappeared AT ALL - it happens to be dwarfed by the second and in the end it's all post-hoc justification to be an utter shitheel to someone else because they can/because it makes them feel powerful/because they hate someone so much they decide to become an "internet terrorist" and they can't resist dragging cyberspace shit into meatspace what with being a maladjusted psychopath


Ziggy Schlacht said:


> IMGUR isn't much better - short messages and rapid chatter is terrible for discourse. But this argument would imply to me things have actually gotten better. If the true shitheads are on twitter, that means they're quarantined in something that, well, I don't need to deal with if I want to talk furry. And while there are still some (though the ones I'm thinking of are all presently banned), I would hardly call them amplified in a negative way. When it's one really bad voice in sea of good ones, versus a number of bad voices in pool of good ones, it's a lot easier to identify and ignore the bad.


They're not quarantined, they're generally free to wander about to other hunting grounds barring the few smaller venues that just won't put up with them.  They're on Twitter because it's PERFECT for them and it enables their bad behavior like nothing else

There isn't a "sea of good ones", there are small puddles of people scattered about who are mostly not complete jackwagons and in those small puddles float a few turds - whether the staff running that venue deal with them appropriately or not is a complete crapshoot and sometimes the staff are WORSE


----------



## MaelstromEyre (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> Doxing is all the rage now and it's just increased because of that second caveat, the first qualifier has not decreased/disappeared AT ALL - it happens to be dwarfed by the second and in the end it's all post-hoc justification to be an utter shitheel to someone else because they can/because it makes them feel powerful/because you hate someone so much they decide to become an "internet terrorist" and they can't resist dragging cyberspace shit into* meatspace* what with being a maladjusted psychopath


Totally off the topic but this is the first time I've heard "meatspace" used to describe real-life world stuff and I'm dying.  Thank you for that.


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

MaelstromEyre said:


> Totally off the topic but this is the first time I've heard "meatspace" used to describe real-life world stuff and I'm dying.  Thank you for that.


the term precedes that post by decades IIRC and it actually might have been cribbed from something like Neuromancer

also god dammit can I please stop fucking up on nouns in sentences today


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm thinking we're talking past each other at best this this point, @O.D.D. Whether the internet has gotten better overall or worse seems heavily dependent on where you are and who you are, and I certainly don't think there's issues.

To the topic - I've said the fandom is generally the same, because we traded some bad for good, good for bad, and overall the net change is 0. Internet culture has always sucked, so it's not a valid way to say the fandom has gotten worse. At least anymore than overall culture has or hasn't. Do you agree or disagree?



MaelstromEyre said:


> Totally off the topic but this is the first time I've heard "meatspace" used to describe real-life world stuff and I'm dying.  Thank you for that.


I was gonna say welcome to 2003, but I guess the term was coined in 1981 to oppose "cyberspace."


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> I'm thinking we're talking past each other at best this this point, @O.D.D. Whether the internet has gotten better overall or worse seems heavily dependent on where you are and who you are, and I certainly don't think there's issues.
> 
> To the topic - I've said the fandom is generally the same, because we traded some bad for good, good for bad, and overall the net change is 0. Internet culture has always sucked, so it's not a valid way to say the fandom has gotten worse. At least anymore than overall culture has or hasn't. Do you agree or disagree?


I certainly haven't seen a lot of meaningful improvement and within the scope of "what I've witnessed" it looks worse now to me but maybe you're just having a better go of it idk

Like in the seemingly distant past the problem was largely incredibly oversexed social outcasts and predators walking amongst them (thanks Merlino you fucking dipshit) and the call for moderation and a bit of temperance was promptly hijacked by insane puritanical assholes because what is gatekeeping I don't know lol

Now we have more oversexed outcasts and still have predators, the response to this seems anemic but at least it's THERE I guess, and compounding that is the "no fun all politics" brigades just utterly poisoning a stupid silly fun interest group from every fucking angle


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## MaelstromEyre (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> I'm thinking we're talking past each other at best this this point, @O.D.D. Whether the internet has gotten better overall or worse seems heavily dependent on where you are and who you are, and I certainly don't think there's issues.
> 
> To the topic - I've said the fandom is generally the same, because we traded some bad for good, good for bad, and overall the net change is 0. Internet culture has always sucked, so it's not a valid way to say the fandom has gotten worse. At least anymore than overall culture has or hasn't. Do you agree or disagree?
> 
> ...


Dang, where have I been. . .guess I ran in different online circles all this time.


----------



## Attaman (Aug 19, 2021)

Since politics has come up now from at least four different people (five if you include my "Even dropping political reasons people say the fandom has gotten worse"): Politics has increasingly come up in the fandom because, surprise of surprises, fandoms are created of people and politics (or even just things that are deemed political) impacts them.

Trans Rights are an obvious one: The fandom has what often times appears to be a disproportionate footprint among trans- communities (I'd argue LGBTQA+ in general, but that's another subject for another thread likely for another month). Several nations have, even just looking at the past year, passed legislature that is either favorable towards Trans Rights or unfavorable to them (not getting into the nitty gritty as doing so, again, is invoking the subject that shan't be mentioned: "There are Trans people in the fandom, there have been events positive and negative in relations to Trans Rights" is about as close as one can comfortably get with any assurance that bats aren't about to start swinging).

Another one is the events of last year in the US (take your pick of _which_, there's no shortage that'll fit the approximate hole shape without having to specify) that have similarly had impacts on demographics who - shock of shocks - populate the fandom (once again, take your pick as to which: 2020 was a year of "May you live in interesting times").

Obviously for some people the fandom is a place to escape day-to-day life concerns. A place to blot out the offline (or even just outside-fandom-space) world and relax. But some people don't get that luxury, being unable to escape such drudgery / biases / et al even within fandom spaces. Others don't _want_ to have to neatly pack parts of themselves into tidy boxes, say "I can never bring this up with anyone anywhere", and basically pretend to be their avatar whenever in fandom spaces (which, even disregarding all the _above_, is fairly understandable IMO when you consider how many people have meltdowns over basic things like "I thought you would exclusively interact via your characters with me!").

This isn't coming up more because the fandom "has got dumb" or anything like that. It's because the internet had - until relatively recently (you could argue approximately 2014-ish, give or take, though it's become more extreme / pronounced since then) - been fairly willing to look the other way, tolerate, or even accept and provide voices to people who normally either would not be heard or had to hide such aspects of themselves (as well as - similar to how Furry has been able to proliferate outside a handful of communities in the last several decades - congregate and form communities with which to interact with their peers across the globe). Likewise the increased condensing of the internet, "cleaning up" of communities in order to make them more appealing to prospective buyers / shareholders, and so-on has lead a number of communities that _were_ fairly open with their members to suddenly be thrust out of their communities / networks and told "Either make a new community or scatter into the winds".

And to say again for emphasis: While for some people that's fine ("It was nice while it lasted"), or was never too big a deal for them in the first place (whether keeping their private lives close to their chest, simply finding other aspects of themselves more important, or so-on), for others it's a bit naff to go online into a community and be told "Feel free to express and be true to yourself! Except for those parts. And these. Don't mind that we let others share that aspect of themselves freely. Also if you don't listen it's up to you to handle the consequences. Just smile, nod, and keep your head low when people talk shit about you. Good luck!"


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

Attaman said:


> Since politics has come up now from at least four different people (five if you include my "Even dropping political reasons people say the fandom has gotten worse"): Politics has increasingly come up in the fandom because, surprise of surprises, fandoms are created of people and politics (or even just things that are deemed political) impacts them.
> 
> Trans Rights are an obvious one: The fandom has what often times appears to be a disproportionate footprint among trans- communities (I'd argue LGBTQA+ in general, but that's another subject for another thread likely for another month). Several nations have, even just looking at the past year, passed legislature that is either favorable towards Trans Rights or unfavorable to them (not getting into the nitty gritty as doing so, again, is invoking the subject that shan't be mentioned: "There are Trans people in the fandom, there have been events positive and negative in relations to Trans Rights" is about as close as one can comfortably get with any assurance that bats aren't about to start swinging).
> 
> ...


This is the last time I'm going to give you the time of day, and it's to say "learn to compartmentalize this shit away from my little bit of escapism"

I'm dead fucking sick of politics, and it's not because I don't have political opinions, it's because using the fandom or PRETTY MUCH ANYWHERE ELSE REALLY to talk about them is a waste of time that leads to me getting frustrated, pissed and at times personally fucking attacked

I don't WANT to give a shit about political raisons d'etre anymore, I HAVE WAY MORE PRESSING AND IMMEDIATE ISSUES that I occasionally need a bit of respite from and you fucking dipshits keep pushing right past that boundary and calling me the bad guy for not marching in lockstep with you, I am beyond sick of this, FUCK OFF.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> I certainly haven't seen a lot of meaningful improvement and within the scope of "what I've witnessed" it looks worse now to me but maybe you're just having a better go of it idk


Or the dirt's always been there and now you care. There's also a tendency for the human brain to forget the bad, but remember the good. That's why so many old folks think it was just soooooo much better back then.

Been in the community since '07, though not on this account. Really feels like same shit, different toilet? Art, on the whole, is better. Furries are all weird AF. And people on twitter are assholes.


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> Or the dirt's always been there and now you care. There's also a tendency for the human brain to forget the bad, but remember the good. That's why so many old folks think it was just soooooo much better back then.
> 
> Been in the community since '07, though not on this account. Really feels like same shit, different toilet? Art, on the whole, is better. Furries are all weird AF. And people on twitter are assholes.


I always gave a shit but frankly beyond hoping the authorities (who I already dislike and distrust but they have the resources to at least be potentially USEFUL) gave a single shit about sex-pestery in a weird niche interest group (which, thankfully, they are STARTING to do) there was FUCKALL to do about it beyond just avoiding the ones I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt were rotten (and then they just make themselves HARDER to avoid), the number of times I've personally warned someone about someone else only to have them PROMPTLY TURN ON ME is nuts, I'm no longer interested in protecting everyone from making those kinds of mistakes and much more focused on making anyone who fucks with my few friends absolutely regret it

I dread the possibility of police involvement AT ALL with this fandom but honestly given how furry vigilantism tends to shake out I really can't see it being much worse than status quo


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 19, 2021)

Judging by most of the responses it feels like I've been living under a rock, but the truth is I just don't use twitter

The entire world has gone to shit and we're doomed as a species if you take twitter as a reference
(Not saying the Sarcophagus around this internet Chernobyl doesn't have many cracks as exemplified by some of the responses, but I'll dare say even here, those users still stick out like sore thumbs like the crazy persons they are)


----------



## KimberVaile (Aug 19, 2021)

It's funny, this thread is almost a microcosm of all the Fandom's current issues.
If you're playing the home version of the Bad FAF Thread Bingo game, you've probably already checked off a few things.
Defending of sexual predators, passive aggressive jabs directed at specific users, politically motivated posts, subsequent shit flinging from mentions of politics, obligatory posting of the dumpster fire meme.
I've yet to see the infamous 3 page long back and forth between two users, and haven't seen a thread lock yet either, BUT I'M STILL HOLDING OUT BABY!


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## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 19, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> It's funny, this thread is almost a microcosm of all the Fandom's current issues.
> If you're playing the home version of the Bad FAF Thread Bingo game, you've probably already checked off a few things.
> Defending of sexual predators, passive aggressive jabs directed at specific users, politically motivated posts, subsequent shit flinging from mentions of politics, obligatory posting of the dumpster fire meme.
> I've yet to see the infamous 3 page long back and forth between two users, and haven't seen a thread lock yet either, BUT I'M STILL HOLDING OUT BABY!


It's funny because they are proving my point of this fandom being utterly shit now, cheers.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> It's funny, this thread is almost a microcosm of all the Fandom's current issues.
> If you're playing the home version of the Bad FAF Thread Bingo game, you've probably already checked off a few things.
> Defending of sexual predators, passive aggressive jabs directed at specific users, politically motivated posts, subsequent shit flinging from mentions of politics, obligatory posting of the dumpster fire meme.
> I've yet to see the infamous 3 page long back and forth between two users, and haven't seen a thread lock yet either, BUT I'M STILL HOLDING OUT BABY!


You forgot someone who's only contribution is "I'm not a furry." Which also means you can add "pointed callouts" to the list too.



Tahr_Yrre said:


> It's funny because they are proving my point of this fandom being utterly shit now, cheers.


So... you can state objectively that ten years ago, this same thread would not have devolved as it has?


----------



## Attaman (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> This is the last time I'm going to give you the time of day, and it's to say "learn to compartmentalize this shit away from my little bit of escapism"


Great! And if somebody can't because, say, they get shit for making a non-binary fursona (because they're non-binary and thus, logically, their fursona is non-binary)? Or is on the receiving end of some pretty sketch commentary because the settle on a kemonomimi / lycanthrope version of their self and said self happens to be non-white?

This can and does happen. Hell: It was something of a meme a year ago when some character's creator or another got a number of harassing messages because they dared to... I forget whether it was merely clarify or change their OC's sex, but _somebody_ went off the deep end going "How _dare_ you make me beat my meat to that which I don't like! Change them back or else!" Everyone laughed at the person sending the messages and not the creator, that time, but that is never a sure thing and the opposite very much has been seen before ("If you didn't want this sort of attention you shouldn't have made such a speshul-snowflake attention seeking try-hard", and whatnot). Or for an example that's not Furry-specific, see the meltdown last year from a bunch of grognards over somebody making rules for a magical wheelchair in 5E D&D. Literal _death threats_ were issued in that exchange.

Which goes back to what I said several times now about the internet being increasingly condensed and the ripple effects it's been having within online communities as a whole. People are increasingly being shoved into places and forced to interact with groups they previously would not have, because one's options are increasingly becoming "Shot in the dark random chat groups", "A handful of major social media sites, some sketchier or heavily clique'd than others", and "Make it yourself! Also prepare for people to increasingly make your life hell so as to further facilitate 2 and increasingly try to consolidate 1 into 2" (see: The effort recently by Microsoft to acquire Discord).


----------



## TrishaCat (Aug 19, 2021)

I dislike where the fandom has gone as I believe it is more abusive and volatile than it has ever been, but also I've only been a furry since 2013 so I really don't know anything at the end of the day about whether things have gotten better or not, only that I've found myself needing to use blocking tools more and more often to create an environment I feel comfortable in. This could also reflect changes in myself rather than in others though, so who knows. ....also tbh 90% of what I dislike about the fandom really only happens on twitter so maybe its more of a "twitter is not a good platform" thing than a furry thing.

one cool thing about the community though: It feels more and more inclusive to the LGBTQ community than ever before, and that's pretty rad.


----------



## Tahr_Yrre (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> You forgot someone who's only contribution is "I'm not a furry." Which also means you can add "pointed callouts" to the list too.
> 
> 
> So... you can state objectively that ten years ago, this same thread would not have devolved as it has?


I'll be honest? Problably not.


----------



## KimberVaile (Aug 19, 2021)

TrishaCat said:


> This could also reflect changes in myself rather than in others though, so who knows. ....also tbh 90% of what I dislike about the fandom really only happens on twitter so maybe its more of a "twitter is not a good platform" thing than a furry thing.


I mean, I agree that Twitter just by design is a god awful platform. People tend to base their perception of cultures/subcultures and so on based on their most public works, figures and so on. The fandom has always had a fairly unsavory reputation by the public, and I don't think it helped at all that people like Kero were revealed to be twisted animal abusers and that this guy Kero's first line of defense was seen on the furry twitter sphere. People like Kero are going to forever color the perception of the fandom at large and furries rather than indicting his creepy ass and pushing this sick person away, decided instead he needed to be defended to bitter end.

Those sort of events that shape public perception are going to weigh more heavily than most things. It really doesn't help that 90% of the fandom's public figures are some variety of cringe inducing, degenerate or severely out of touch. And of course, that's all most people are going to see when they make their perceptions of the fandom.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

@Attaman - You're doing exactly what he's complaining about. At no point did he say your politics were bad, or that he disagreed. In fact, he never actually gave a political alignment whatsoever that I saw. But now you're badgering him, assuming the worst. He commented that many in the fandom try to inject politics beyond what's needed, and if you complain, _continue to berate you over politics._ Which is exactly what you're doing. Hardly going to change his mind when you're doing the thing he hates...

@TrishaCat - This is a major thing I don't think a lot of folks realize. 10 years ago, the culture was "suck it up buttercup" and now it's "that's what the block is for." Those two ideas are going to produce a wildly different interpretation of how you view things. When you suck it up, you just ignore the bullshit and don't have to acknowledge how much there is. When you block, you're taking active steps which make you realize how much there was.


----------



## Attaman (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> @Attaman - You're doing exactly what he's complaining about. At no point did he say your politics were bad, or that he disagreed. In fact, he never actually gave a political alignment whatsoever that I saw. But now you're badgering him, assuming the worst. He commented that many in the fandom try to inject politics beyond what's needed, and if you complain, _continue to berate them over politics._ Which is exactly what you're doing. Hardly going to change his mind when you're doing the thing he hates...


It is not an attempt at badgering. It's emphasis on the final paragraph. Normally these situations would not have cropped up because people would have kept to their own little niches / communities on the internet. That increasingly is not an option. You can stick to private chat servers, but those are only as secure as the sites / services that host them (and most of the older members here can probably tell you what happened to a lot of AIM chat groups, Skype ones, IRC ones, etc). A lot of comics and whatnot are increasingly congregating from individual niche communities into general "Host-based" forums (if not just biting the bullet with aforementioned chat groups). Etcetera, etcetera.

Furry's a bit odd in that it's one of the few communities that _has_ seen its number of acceptable mediums / venues expand over the years instead of contract. It's just that this doesn't help when everyone _else_ is fuming over the contraction. And the expansion still isn't that big / involves a lot of bumping elbows.

So people are thrust into a damned-if-you-do situation. To continue with the examples: If you're NB and you want to make a NB fursona, you either have to say "No, I will compartmentalize that part of myself and keep it hidden so as to avoid drama" (at which point you're already limiting your ability to properly enjoy yourself, unwind, and be who you are / would like to be)... or you have to say "Fuck it, I'll make them NB too" (and accept that this will bring _different_ frustrations to both yourself and others). Normally the solution there would be "Hang out in spheres that being NB isn't going to cause much an issue", but... well, consolidation. And guilt by association that goes with a bunch of those consolidations.


----------



## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

Attaman said:


> It is not an attempt at badgering. It's emphasis on the final paragraph. Normally these situations would not have cropped up because people would have kept to their own little niches / communities on the internet. That increasingly is not an option. You can stick to private chat servers, but those are only as secure as the sites / services that host them (and most of the older members here can probably tell you what happened to a lot of AIM chat groups, Skype ones, IRC ones, etc). A lot of comics and whatnot are increasingly congregating from individual niche communities into general "Host-based" forums (if not just biting the bullet with aforementioned chat groups). Etcetera, etcetera.
> 
> Furry's a bit odd in that it's one of the few communities that _has_ seen its number of acceptable mediums / venues expand over the years instead of contract. It's just that this doesn't help when everyone _else_ is fuming over the contraction. And the expansion still isn't that big / involves a lot of bumping elbows.
> 
> So people are thrust into a damned-if-you-do situation. To continue with the examples: If you're NB and you want to make a NB fursona, you either have to say "No, I will compartmentalize that part of myself and keep it hidden so as to avoid drama" (at which point you're already limiting your ability to properly enjoy yourself, unwind, and be who you are / would like to be)... or you have to say "Fuck it, I'll make them NB too" (and accept that this will bring _different_ frustrations to both yourself and others). Normally the solution there would be "Hang out in spheres that being NB isn't going to cause much an issue", but... well, consolidation. And guilt by association that goes with a bunch of those consolidations.


Do you get to choose if you're pissing someone off, or do they? In any case, you're missing the point. An NB character is not, by themselves, political. Where the issue comes in is if someone posts an NB character, and gets met with a "sure, w/e" and proceeds to go "WHAT, DO YOU HATE ME?" it becomes political in a problematic away. There's no fight, but they're choosing to make it one. This behavior you absolutely _do_ see, and is a more extreme version of what you're doing now. He wants an ability to say "I don't want to discuss that" without being further pushed. Yet you made a point to cite at least 4 examples of politics, and tell him "No, you can't avoid it!" He could. By you just not saying anything more, you'd have fulfilled his wish.

Many folks see "I don't want to discuss" as "I disagree" or "I hate" and keep pushing, forcing a self-fulfilling prophecy of getting disagreement or hate solely because they didn't just walk away. I literally have the bi-pride flag as my avatar, but I don't always want to discuss bi-erasure or similar. Yet, if someone were to decide to ask my opinion, and I tell them "I don't feel like talking about it" - I stand a risk of them somehow assuming I don't take the issue seriously.

To phrase this another way, just as an NB person wants to be able to post a character and not get hate, others want the ability to "I don't want to discuss that" and also not get hate. Which is kind of interesting, given that many of those same people seem to make a fight when they don't get one, then complain about it.


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## Attaman (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> Do you get to choose if you're pissing someone off, or do they? In any case, you're missing the point. An NB character is not, by themselves, political. Where the issue comes in is if someone posts an NB character, and gets met with a "sure, w/e" and proceeds to go "WHAT, DO YOU HATE ME?"


 I mean, this does nothing to dispel my point? Whoever the instigator is (my portrayal defaulted to others, yours the NB), that conflict would not have occurred otherwise. Unless you're presenting a counter-argument that the crowding / changes to the internet in general are not the issue, but instead that we have an issue of people swan-diving into communities purposefully riling shit up, which...

Uh, considering my self-admitted reasons for joining FAF back when I did in ages past, may not be the best argument for "This is a today problem, not a past one".


----------



## ben909 (Aug 19, 2021)

*tries to use this discussion as a point for the poll*
...
...
...
to lazy to read through it all enough times to probably understand it


----------



## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

@Attaman - I'm talking the people who don't want to stir shit who aren't allowed to just live in peace. Like the guy you were arguing with (or the concept of the guy I've now invented). He basically said "I want to be able to tell people "go away with your politics" and have them do that." So _not_ have some tell them repeatedly "you can't avoid it! you can't avoid it! I'm going to make sure of it!." It's people missing that they're stirring shit by insisting there's a problem when there isn't. Then getting mad when they get hit back.

And I do see this all the time. The alphabet mafia is really bad at doing it. Posts like "I'm trans, fight me! FUCK YOU!" and similar. Lots of folks don't care that you're trans, but as soon as you start getting that aggressive, they care because it's an implied attack against them. When folks complain about "shoving it down their throat" it's not wearing a pride flag, or talking with a lisp. It's this "looking for a fight, and making one if there isn't" trend that's very common, particularly on online forums. To flip sides, people don't necessarily care if you're carrying a gun, but they absolute do care when you start (metaphorically or not) screaming in someone's face "COME AND TAKE IT."

Your point, as I understand it, is politics are unavoidable, it's what happens when cultures collide. My point is politics are completely avoidable - you just... let things go. Someone says "I don't care" or "I don't want to talk about it" and that's it. You drop it. And when you post, you post as if there isn't going to be a fight. The hypothetical trans person above just goes "I'm trans." The hypothetical gun owner just gets their coffee. Someone goes "whatever man" and they listen.


----------



## Eremurus (Aug 19, 2021)

Weird thread lol.


----------



## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> @Attaman - I'm talking the people who don't want to stir shit who aren't allowed to just live in peace. Like the guy you were arguing with (or the concept of the guy I've now invented). He basically said "I want to be able to tell people "go away with your politics" and have them do that." So _not_ have some tell them repeatedly "you can't avoid it! you can't avoid it! I'm going to make sure of it!." It's people missing that they're stirring shit by insisting there's a problem when there isn't. Then getting mad when they get hit back.
> 
> And I do see this all the time. The alphabet mafia is really bad at doing it. Posts like "I'm trans, fight me! FUCK YOU!" and similar. Lots of folks don't care that you're trans, but as soon as you start getting that aggressive, they care because it's an implied attack against them. When folks complain about "shoving it down their throat" it's not wearing a pride flag, or talking with a lisp. It's this "looking for a fight, and making one if there isn't" trend that's very common, particularly on online forums. To flip sides, people don't necessarily care if you're carrying a gun, but they absolute do care when you start (metaphorically or not) screaming in someone's face "COME AND TAKE IT."
> 
> Your point, as I understand it, is politics are unavoidable, it's what happens when cultures collide. My point is politics are completely avoidable - you just... let things go. Someone says "I don't care" or "I don't want to talk about it" and that's it. You drop it. And when you post, you post as if there isn't going to be a fight. The hypothetical trans person above just goes "I'm trans." The hypothetical gun owner just gets their coffee. Someone goes "whatever man" and they listen.


Or they be a smart bean and click away? owo


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

I think I'm starting to realize something and it's probably bigger than the fandom, really, but...

Having boundaries is now framed as a bad thing, at people's convenience.


----------



## Attaman (Aug 19, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> @Attaman - I'm talking the people who don't want to stir shit who aren't allowed to just live in peace. Like the guy you were arguing with (or the concept of the guy I've now invented). He basically said "I want to be able to tell people "go away with your politics" and have them do that."


Which is a bit of a problem when some people's very existence is deemed political, _and_ online spaces are increasingly consolidated to the point that the likelihood of hostile interaction approaches 1. There's only a handful of ways in which that situation can be resolved, and they all essentially tell somebody "Get stuffed" to varying degrees. We're increasingly entering a situation wherein people basically have to decide who they're willing to step on the toes of, as again "Crammed like sardines". "Do I step on the toes of people who just want to post their totally-not-them fursona / persona / author avatar / whatever? Do I step on the toes of the people who believe the former to be actively trying to antagonize them? Do I step on the toes of the people who'd wish the first two would just shut up? Do I step on the toes of the people who think the third category is by requisite taking a side in one of the two, on top of the third and one of the first two? Do I..."

Would it make you feel better if I focus on that Wheelchair example again? Y'know, the one where D&D players had a meltdown over somebody writing rules for a magitech wheelchair? Because we can drop the LGBTQA+ point entirely if you'd prefer or you think there's a bigger point to be made on that one than the one I'm trying to make.


Ziggy Schlacht said:


> Your point, as I understand it, is politics are unavoidable, it's what happens when cultures collide. My point is politics are completely avoidable - you just... let things go.


See above. In this hypothetical world in which you speak, people would not be sending death threats over somebody having a wheelchair for their D&D character. Now, this isn't to say that this couldn't or wouldn't happen 10+ years ago (the internet has _always_ been a 'magical' place), but as communities are increasingly pushed together, consolidated, and otherwise interlinked in one fashion or another, again the odds of it happening to any one person increasingly approach 1.

All of the above not being fandom specific, but examples of how online spaces have changed over the last decade and why this could understandably cause some frustration to bleed over into fandom spaces.


----------



## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> I think I'm starting to realize something and it's probably bigger than the fandom, really, but...
> 
> Having boundaries is now framed as a bad thing, at people's convenience.



I get this allllllllllllll the time.
"YOU DONT WANNA HANG OUT WITH ME ANYMORE, WHY??!?! BECAUSE YOU THINK YOURE BETTER THAN ME?!?!"
"No, it's because you're drunk and you do drugs and I don't deal with that scene and your buddies over there have literally slashed their wrists over something while on coke." 

"I'm not really into hearing the specifics about your vagina, sorry."
"What, are you actually_ hetero_???"

People be whack, yo.


----------



## reptile logic (Aug 19, 2021)

Just dropped by to. . . leave in a big hurry.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> I get this allllllllllllll the time.
> "YOU DONT WANNA HANG OUT WITH ME ANYMORE, WHY??!?! BECAUSE YOU THINK YOURE BETTER THAN ME?!?!"
> "No, it's because you're drunk and you do drugs and I don't deal with that scene and your buddies over there have literally slashed their wrists over something while on coke."
> 
> ...


I'm reminded of something people with ASDs can occasionally have trouble picking up on.  Think of all the ways people signal discomfort, or unhappiness or that kind of thing without actually using words to say "I'M UNCOMFORTABLE".  Tone.  Posture/body language.  Facial expressions.

What's absent in most communication on the internet?


----------



## Attaman (Aug 19, 2021)

Sorry for the double post, but this might make things a bit easier to comprehend what my point is: Among our United States residential members, imagine your extended family. Any surviving parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, cousins, et al. In ideal circumstances, you will only really interact with each other when you want to. If you're on good terms with somebody you'll speak with them more often. If you're on bad terms, you'll speak with them less... if at all! Why am I specifying US members? Hear me out for a couple more moments.

Now, you have this situation. Everyone with their own various leans and perspectives. Their own buttons (some of which some family members will know, and some of which others won't). Their own personal lives, their own gripes and grievances, etcetera. 

With the above in mind, consider ye ol' Holiday Dinner. Thanksgiving being the one I'll use here, as while it isn't celebrated universally across the US it's still common enough and crosses the main religious barriers that many have probably experienced it at least once.

Normally, Thanksgiving Dinner can get a bit... terse, at times. But people reign it in. It's a once a year thing, people are often busy focusing on various things (prep for other holidays, cooking, eating, et al)... trouble might boil over, but it's notable when it boils into something serious instead of "[x] and [y] are just irritably agreeing to disagree".

Only now imagine Thanksgiving Dinner doesn't end. And that it's increasingly difficult to privately seek out and speak with fellow guests. And that this situation persists for weeks, months. Start including some of you and your family (immediate and extended's) coworkers and / or friends. And some of theirs too.

This is the powder keg I'm referring to with the above regarding how online spaces have developed. People who normally would only interact during specific events or when interests coincide are being crammed for prolonged times into contact with people whom at best they didn't really know much about, and at worst know enough about to really not want to deal with.


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## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> I'm reminded of something people with ASDs can occasionally have trouble picking up on.  Think of all the ways people signal discomfort, or unhappiness or that kind of thing without actually using words to say "I'M UNCOMFORTABLE".  Tone.  Posture/body language.  Facial expressions.
> 
> What's absent in most communication on the internet?



All of those!  

But when I tell people I tend to be blunt and direct. But for whatever reason, it's like 'yea but I thought when you said that you were joking' or some stupid nonsense that I'm expected to believe.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Aug 19, 2021)

Anyway, I don't know if it's gotten worse or better because I've never been a devoted and well-invested member of the furry fandom for any appreciable amount of time. "IDK" was my poll answer.

_What I do know_ is that the furry fandom typically hosts *significantly *higher numbers of people who are mentally ill and socially maladjusted than what you see in the general real world population. This was bound to happen since this subculture practices a sort of "big tent" admissions policy when it comes to prospective members maneuvering their way into it. All the broken things of the world have to go _somewhere _so a lot of them wind up flocking here. Bad move from the beginning and now the chickens have come home to roost.

And because of how absolutely _busted _a lot of furries are, I tend to vet them with _extreme _prejudice when considering one of them for casual or close association. The very moment I detect overt signs of profound mental illness (BPD, narcissism, sociopathy, and severe clinical depression are my top four deal breakers for this category) or that they exhibit the inability to turn the politics/horny off for two seconds, I gradually disassociate with this person and eventually move on.

And don't even get me started on what the deal breakers are for the RL scene. Let's just say that my corporeal existence is _extremely _stable for one reason and one reason only: I blackball about 90% of humans from having any direct influence upon it.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

ASTA said:


> I blackball about 90% of humans from having any direct influence upon it.


Sounds pretty nice tbh.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Aug 19, 2021)

@Attaman  Yes, there are assholes out there. Yes, people lost their shit over a wheelchair. We also do give trolls way too much air time. And yes, it seems everyone's looking to fight.

But here's the thing - we can make it better by, when people who aren't actively stirring shit, honestly go "I want to divorce myself from this" we let them. Not those who say "trans people are unnatural" followed by "I'm not trying to be political" but the folks who say "tone it down" in non-political threads, the ones who get annoyed when you turn every chat into whatever pet issue you have, the one's who honestly say "I don't care" to whatever flavor of gender you are. What's being asked for is their request to be heard and listened to, which, as I pointed out, you completely ignored previously.

And it can also be made better by not expecting a fight whenever anything is said. There are enough people who want to be assholes, we don't need to invent reasons for new ones.

Edit: To work with you analogy. At Thanksgiving you know your uncle doesn't like LGBT folks, but he generally accepts all your gay cousins. You seem to advocate that, say you bring something up and he goes "Not today" you continue, regardless. What I'm saying is when your Uncle goes "Not today" you listen and shut up.


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## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

Mods be lockin down threads like:




And then bounce off to their next destination.
Or throw themselves into the depths of space.


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## Kinguyakki (Aug 19, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> I get this allllllllllllll the time.
> "YOU DONT WANNA HANG OUT WITH ME ANYMORE, WHY??!?! BECAUSE YOU THINK YOURE BETTER THAN ME?!?!"
> "No, it's because you're drunk and you do drugs and I don't deal with that scene and your buddies over there have literally slashed their wrists over something while on coke."
> 
> ...


This is accurate.  

My existence as myself is not intended to cancel out anyone else's.  The fact I don't want to ERP another person's fetish with them doesn't mean I hate them or am anti-whatever-fetish-they-have.  It just means their fetish doesn't interest me and they need to find a RP partner who has similar preferences.

There is an abundance of over-sharing in the fandom.  It's not that there aren't people who want to talk about more personal issues or preferences or fetishes or fantasies.  There are.  There are probably a lot of them.  

The problem is that many of them don't have a filter and they think everyone wants to discuss it.  They offer it unsolicited to total strangers, and some do get offended when that stranger backs off and says "no, thanks, not my thing."

Part of that is immaturity.  Like ASTA said, the community harbors a lot of mental disorders.  In many ways it's like a safe place, because you're surrounded by people who may be more understanding.  But, it also means that you're going to run into a lot of people who don't know how to process their feelings when someone doesn't agree with them, and they get. . .dramatic.


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## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

Kinguyakki said:


> This is accurate.
> 
> My existence as myself is not intended to cancel out anyone else's.  The fact I don't want to ERP another person's fetish with them doesn't mean I hate them or am anti-whatever-fetish-they-have.  It just means their fetish doesn't interest me and they need to find a RP partner who has similar preferences.
> 
> ...



Indeed. I mostly just assume it's embarrassment. People tend to get angry when they feel humiliated.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Indeed. I mostly just assume it's embarrassment. People tend to get angry when they feel humiliated.


I mean, it IS a two way street.  People also get angry (sometimes) when they get information they have no idea what to do with or no interest in dumped on them.

Regarding poor socialization, this is not a furry specific problem, and while some people have the deck stacked against them from square one and others get dealt repeated bad hands later that lead to the issue... the fact is that other people can be fucking terrible at getting them socialized and functional.  Finding ways to improve social skills involves a LOT more bumps and bruises for the laggards if they are inclined to try (and frankly without them you're right fooked).


----------



## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> I mean, it IS a two way street.  People also get angry (sometimes) when they get information they have no idea what to do with or no interest in dumped on them.
> 
> Regarding poor socialization, this is not a furry specific problem, and while some people have the deck stacked against them from square one and others get dealt repeated bad hands later that lead to the issue... the fact is that other people can be fucking terrible at getting them socialized and functional.  Finding ways to improve social skills involves a LOT more bumps and bruises for the laggards if they are inclined to try (and frankly without them you're right fooked).



I mean yea. I grew up isolated and not allowed to go and hang out with peeps. Aside from the typical 'what rock have you been living under' I had to learn all kinds of shit like with job hunting, on my own. It was brutal. 

When people ask me "What are your hobbies" I answered honestly. :') But of course, I know now, they don't actually give a shit about your personality and well-being, just how it related to the job.


----------



## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> I mean yea. I grew up isolated and not allowed to go and hang out with peeps. Aside from the typical 'what rock have you been living under' I had to learn all kinds of shit like with job hunting, on my own. It was brutal.
> 
> When people ask me "What are your hobbies" I answered honestly. :') But of course, I know now, they don't actually give a shit about your personality and well-being, just how it related to the job.


When I first encountered the usual "How are you today?" that was not asked out of any sincere interest in a business environment I answered with an "I'm fine, you?" because I'm honestly rather paranoid about telling coworkers or superiors a single damned thing about what's inside my head at any given moment.

It's not because I gave a shit about the process of niceties and pretending to care.  I legit loathe it.  I loathe hollow niceties and pointless questions.  I loathe the concept of filling empty air with emptier speech.  I dislike the fact that people view it as some kind of necessity for social function.  But I'm stuck in here with them, not the other way around.  I do it because it's because it's the quickest way to get them to fuck off and go away.  There, I said your idiot magic words, fuck off, I have a job to do.  It actually rather dismays me when I think about it - the correct response for casual interpersonal interactions is to be so guarded and paranoid that you mask absolutely EVERY POSSIBLE INDICATOR that you might not be happy, or might not be comfortable, or whatever, just to end it as quickly as possible and go about your day.  That's how insufferable people are.  Shame they're as useful as they are, and bigger shame that you start to genuinely like some of them, but such is life.  (This is only partially tongue in cheek, really - I hate using people and I feel shitty about sorting people mentally by utility, but fuck it, if I'm sticking around you're either useful enough to put up with or nice enough to just enjoy the company of and most people ain't that nice)


----------



## TyraWadman (Aug 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> When I first encountered the usual "How are you today?" that was not asked out of any sincere interest in a business environment I answered with an "I'm fine, you?" because I'm honestly rather paranoid about telling coworkers or superiors a single damned thing about what's inside my head at any given moment.
> 
> It's not because I gave a shit about the process of niceties and pretending to care.  I legit loathe it.  I loathe hollow niceties and pointless questions.  I loathe the concept of filling empty air with emptier speech.  I dislike the fact that people view it as some kind of necessity for social function.  But I'm stuck in here with them, not the other way around.  I do it because it's because it's the quickest way to get them to fuck off and go away.  There, I said your idiot magic words, fuck off, I have a job to do.  It actually rather dismays me when I think about it - the correct response for casual interpersonal interactions is to be so guarded and paranoid that you mask absolutely EVERY POSSIBLE INDICATOR that you might not be happy, or might not be comfortable, or whatever, just to end it as quickly as possible and go about your day.  That's how insufferable people are.  Shame they're as useful as they are, and bigger shame that you start to genuinely like some of them, but such is life.  (This is only partially tongue in cheek, really - I hate using people and I feel shitty about sorting people mentally by utility, but fuck it, if I'm sticking around you're either useful enough to put up with or nice enough to just enjoy the company of and most people ain't that nice)



Ugh... 99% of customer service. I hate puffing air. I hate making it sound like I give a shit. I'm not angry at them, and I certainly don't wish them any ill will, I definitely don't take my problems out on them, but I definitely don't go around sounding like a voice over in a commercial when I go home. I can make face and be polite, but at such a high demand? It's exhausting. Especially with the introversion and depression, sometimes it hits so hard I can barely fake a smile. But of course it's interpreted as rude, because I should be 'grateful' they're even spending their money there!

I love the job I'm at because it's half cash, half sales floor. No other place I have worked has ever been like that. It gives me a bit of time talking to keep from getting rusty and I get to stretch my legs. But the people there make me wanna quit. 8) Everything is a competition, especially since I went and pulled items off the shelf that were two years expired... they basically got called out for slacking and they haven't treated me kindly since. XD 

I prefer to do my job and just go home. If something comes up, cool. But I don't like talking about the weather, or what your friends niece did over the weekend.


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## O.D.D. (Aug 19, 2021)

I remember someone getting shitty at me when I was dragged to a party and spent about 75 percent of it with the host's cat because I was being unsociable, and why can't I just be as nice to people as I am to animals.  I answered something to the effect of "worst thing an animal ever did to me was bite or kick me, those usually heal up within a week or two".

I despise being phony and I consider being expected to be phony to others to be an affront - fuck sales/customer facing.  I may not like people but I don't like lying to them or hurting them.


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## Eremurus (Aug 20, 2021)

It's just weird how people can perceive entire subcultures as monolithic- they are comprised of individuals. On most platforms, well, there are tools designed to help you avoid people you find unsavory, and to also report their content if it breaches ToS. You can't really expect anything more to happen. The internet is a very large place, and people form their own pockets all the time.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 16, 2021)

I love how 'dunno' is leading the poll.


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## Tahr_Yrre (Sep 16, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> I love how 'dunno' is leading the poll.


Probably because the average age in the fandom is 20~ yo nowadays, so they weren't even there 10 years ago to judge.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 16, 2021)

Eremurus said:


> It's just weird how people can perceive entire subcultures as monolithic- they are comprised of individuals. On most platforms, well, there are tools designed to help you avoid people you find unsavory, and to also report their content if it breaches ToS. You can't really expect anything more to happen. The internet is a very large place, and people form their own pockets all the time.


You're probably a thousand times more likely to trip over the stereotypical cumbrained uwu no-sense-of-boundaries furry with STRONG OPINIONS in general online spaces than any other type, if you're an outsider to the fandom, and this perception attracts MORE cumbrains with OPINIONS to the fandom which creates a feedback loop


----------



## Kinguyakki (Sep 16, 2021)

Within the fandom - I think the "popufur" culture has gotten worse.  Not just in the more obvious cases of followers defending someone for doing really abhorrent things, but also in situations where a "popufur" has completely taken advantage of their own followers, guilting them into financial support even while making horrible remarks aimed at those who struggle with behavioral or learning issues in everyday life.  

I'm not totally against "popufurs" themselves - just the cult-like mentality of some of the followers.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 17, 2021)

Attaman said:


> Which is a bit of a problem when some people's very existence is deemed political


That's what CRT creeps do with EVERY SINGLE GROUP, they make EVERYBODY's identity fully political. Maybe instead of forcing politics on everybody it would be quicker, smoother and less absurd to just kick these people out, all of them.


----------



## Attaman (Sep 17, 2021)

Kinguyakki said:


> Within the fandom - I think the "popufur" culture has gotten worse.  Not just in the more obvious cases of followers defending someone for doing really abhorrent things, but also in situations where a "popufur" has completely taken advantage of their own followers, guilting them into financial support even while making horrible remarks aimed at those who struggle with behavioral or learning issues in everyday life.
> 
> I'm not totally against "popufurs" themselves - just the cult-like mentality of some of the followers.


This one isn’t quite fandom specific so much as an unfortunate change to the internet in general. See the fifty thousand articles on predatory parasocial relationships courted on sites like YouTube and Twitch which actively reward users for both funneling followers’ money into their pockets _and _dress it up for said followers by giving bells and whistles of unique emoji and private posts and whatnot.


----------



## Tahr_Yrre (Sep 17, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> That's what CRT creeps do with EVERY SINGLE GROUP, they make EVERYBODY's identity fully political. Maybe instead of forcing politics on everybody it would be quicker, smoother and less absurd to just kick these people out, all of them.


A dream


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 17, 2021)

Tahr_Yrre said:


> A dream


We can dream!


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 17, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> That's what CRT creeps do with EVERY SINGLE GROUP, they make EVERYBODY's identity fully political. Maybe instead of forcing politics on everybody it would be quicker, smoother and less absurd to just kick these people out, all of them.



Frank, just, how about like...one day where you don't bring your views on american politics up?
_One day_.




Tahr_Yrre said:


> Probably because the average age in the fandom is 20~ yo nowadays, so they weren't even there 10 years ago to judge.



I think the 'fandom' is a pretty loosely defined thing anyway, so it's probably the most honest answer. Any number of things are always changing, and whether the net sum is good or bad is really anybody's guess.


----------



## Yakamaru (Sep 17, 2021)

Kinguyakki said:


> Within the fandom - I think the "popufur" culture has gotten worse.  Not just in the more obvious cases of followers defending someone for doing really abhorrent things, but also in situations where a "popufur" has completely taken advantage of their own followers, guilting them into financial support even while making horrible remarks aimed at those who struggle with behavioral or learning issues in everyday life.
> 
> I'm not totally against "popufurs" themselves - just the cult-like mentality of some of the followers.


It's called celebrity worship, and is largely an American thing I've noticed. Not *necessarily *bad in and of itself but can be extremely annoying. 

People can and will do bad things and it's important to be consistent on calling that shit out.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 17, 2021)

Yakamaru said:


> It's called celebrity worship, and is largely an American thing I've noticed. Not *necessarily *bad in and of itself but can be extremely annoying.
> 
> People can and will do bad things and it's important to be consistent on calling that shit out.


We discarded royalty in the formation of the country and then replaced it later with new kinds of royalty


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 17, 2021)

The saints of ancient churches were essentially the celebrities of their day, weren't they? 

Humans be like this for some reason.



O.D.D. said:


> We discarded royalty in the formation of the country and then replaced it later with new kinds of royalty



We'd be willing to swap!


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 17, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Frank, just, how about like...one day where you don't bring your views on american politics up?
> _One day_.
> 
> It's like, you only exist in order to live and breathe the political subjects that make you angry, and that your only purpose in life is to contaminate everybody else with it. :{


I didn't know you considered a few forum posts as someone's only purpose in life. That must make your own life pretty wretched, but it's not my own situation. Also are you that scared I could "contaminate" people with my heretical opinions just because I lament the fact so many people judge others on the basis of their skin color and other such factors?


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## Yakamaru (Sep 17, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> The saints of ancient churches were essentially the celebrities of their day, weren't they?
> 
> Humans be like this for some reason.


Difference is, the saints actually knew how to behave in public. Their anuses weren't jealous of their mouths because all the shit coming out the wrong end. The bathroom must be very lonely. >:

~Edit~
It also shows that popufurs are normal people like everyone else, which is nice. Fun to watch some of the crap they spew. =3=


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## KimberVaile (Sep 17, 2021)

Yakamaru said:


> It's called celebrity worship, and is largely an American thing I've noticed. Not *necessarily *bad in and of itself but can be extremely annoying.
> 
> People can and will do bad things and it's important to be consistent on calling that shit out.


It happens everywhere, plenty of European countries engage in the same actor/musician/entertainer worship.
Before that it was theater actors, and before that opera singers.

It's been consistently pathetic and universal. The fandom just replaces actors with porn artists as the object of worship.
I did notice the actual merit and talent of people of worship has steadily degraded. At the very least, you could claim an Opera Singer had considerable talent, can't say the same about modern musicians, usually.


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## O.D.D. (Sep 17, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> It happens everywhere, plenty of European countries engage in the same actor/musician/entertainer worship.
> Before that it was theater actors, and before that opera singers.
> 
> It's been consistently pathetic and universal. The fandom just replaces actors with porn artists as the object of worship.
> I did notice the actual merit and talent of people of worship has steadily degraded. At the very least, you could claim an Opera Singer had considerable talent, can't say the same about modern musicians, usually.


There are a lot of incredibly talented musicians in the modern scene, they're just not the ones that get worshipped usually


----------



## Yakamaru (Sep 17, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> It happens everywhere, plenty of European countries engage in the same actor/musician/entertainer worship.
> Before that it was theater actors, and before that opera singers.
> 
> It's been consistently pathetic and universal. The fandom just replaces actors with porn artists as the object of worship.
> I did notice the actual merit and talent of people of worship has steadily degraded. At the very least, you could claim an Opera Singer had considerable talent, can't say the same about modern musicians, usually.


It does indeed happen everywhere, that is not something I will argue against obviously. It is however a lot more noticeable in America in particular.


----------



## KimberVaile (Sep 17, 2021)

Yakamaru said:


> It does indeed happen everywhere, that is not something I will argue against obviously. It is however a lot more noticeable in America in particular.


With how the British gossip about figureheads with no actual power and form an entire tabloid industry on it. I would disagree. It's just as bad in plenty other countries.


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## Yakamaru (Sep 17, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> With how the British gossip about figureheads with no actual power and form an entire tabloid industry on it. I would disagree. It's just as bad in plenty other countries.


And I disagree with your disagreement. UwU
Still love ya tho

There's gossip and there's going far and wide to defend whatever dumb celebrity you like. And boy do some of the Japanese go far and wide.


----------



## KimberVaile (Sep 17, 2021)

Guys, I play pretend all the time when I rp, can I get paid 6 figures and be worshiped for it too?


----------



## Yakamaru (Sep 17, 2021)

_throws a whole lot of nickels at_


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 17, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Guys, I play pretend all the time when I rp, can I get paid 6 figures for it and be worshiped for it too?


I mean, you could probably work out something but idk if it will get you 6 figures.


----------



## Judge Spear (Sep 17, 2021)

Yeah, It's gotten worse. Between the binary politics and some zoo/pedophile ring being outted each week, on top of the usual social fumbles this fandom is still king of, it's even more of a joke. Social media has not helped, but I can't really pretend that's exclusive to furries.

The unchecked horniness hasn't changed. Been a problem since the 80's. And it will never change. Sex is the core defining trait of the fandom. You just kind of have to make your own microcosm and cultivate it to your taste if you want to avoid the more lascivious denizens.

It's nothing unavoidable at least. You can generally avoid *most *of it on any site you join. I see all the dumb shit we do, but I just don't get involved. Like politics for example. 
You can avoid any hard leaning dumbasses by just...shutting the fuck up. Your uninsightful political stances on limited ass Twitter don't matter anyway so you can easily avoid trouble with people by just not inviting it or interjecting in arguments. It's just that people can't resist the temptation of thinking they intellectually owned some random in 240 characters.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 18, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> I see all the dumb shit we do, but I just don't get involved. Like politics for example.
> You can avoid any hard leaning dumbasses by just...shutting the fuck up. Your uninsightful political stances on limited ass Twitter don't matter anyway so you can easily avoid trouble with people by just not inviting it or interjecting in arguments. It's just that people can't resist the temptation of thinking they intellectually owned some random in 240 characters.


It's almost like these people have no other struggles in their life, so they have to make one in order to feel like they exist.

That or... I hesitate to say "they're prisoners of society, thinking they HAVE to obey in order to fit in", unfortunately that's EXACTLY what it looks like to me.

I lament that ever since the forums went down I can't find that post by one of our older furs that defined "what counts as political" - as that's going to become more and more relevant as time goes on.  Seems not a lot of people get taught what they need to keep to themselves.




Yakamaru said:


> Difference is, the saints actually knew how to behave in public. Their anuses weren't jealous of their mouths because all the shit coming out the wrong end. The bathroom must be very lonely. >:


......yyyyyyeah, I'm going to have to check into the histories of those "saints" one of these days when my brain allows me time to care.  Part of me feels like the modern depictions of these people just stripped out all the bad parts and that they're only "saints" because some distant authority demanded they were.


----------



## Attaman (Sep 18, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I lament that ever since the forums went down I can't find that post by one of our older furs that defined "what counts as political" - as that's going to become more and more relevant as time goes on.  Seems not a lot of people get taught what they need to keep to themselves.


In some regards: Yeah, people share _far_ too much online. Particularly considering how many donor groups and parties - even just among the English-speaking internet - are itching at the bit to legalize things like "It's okay to deny these people medical care" or "It's okay to hold these people indefinitely in jail" and whatnot. To say nothing of how anything you post on the internet is increasingly most likely to stay on the internet _forever_.

And we've shared several times _in this thread alone_ (let alone FAF as a whole) how much of the internet is basically a honeypot for selling people's personal information: A big reason a lot of psychiatrists are advising against certain online mental health services (for just one example) is several of _those_ gladly admit in their ToS / Contracts that "Hey, any information you volunteer through our service is free to share / sell". And they, quite understandably, have _concerns_ about people advertising directly to Facebook, Twitter, et al information farms "Oh yeah [person] has [diagnosed / undiagnosed condition]".

On the other: I invite you to look up the recent clusterfuck that was the "Free Fur All" convention for why a lot of people have _hesitancy_ when people start to bang on this drum. Big trigger warning list ahead though as, uh, lots of blatant slurs, threats, discussions of murdering people / fantasies of murdering people, goading people to commit suicide, more slurs, explicit hate-group iconography, dangerous levels of 2G (though arguably any levels constitute as dangerous for one's mental healthy)...

Basically what I'm saying is considering the usual FAFer's level of self-control and similar to dipping pool test strip and giving it a good shake, by bringing the up above in about a page we'll probably know _real_ quick if at least one person's motivation for beating on this drum ties back to said hesitancy. Or if I'll eat crow.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 18, 2021)

Attaman said:


> On the other: I invite you to look up the recent clusterfuck that was the "Free Fur All" convention for why a lot of people have _hesitancy_ when people start to bang on this drum. Big trigger warning list ahead though as, uh, lots of blatant slurs, threats, discussions of murdering people / fantasies of murdering people, goading people to commit suicide, more slurs, explicit hate-group iconography, dangerous levels of 2G (though arguably any levels constitute as dangerous for one's mental healthy)...


....

Hard pass.  I don't care if the invitation was sarcastic or genuine, hard pass on this one.

I know you JUST SPOKE about shared medical information, but part of my condition includes echolalia, and I mean for way longer than the usual developmental phase of repetition.  I get anywhere near this shit, this is going to repeat endlessly in my words and thoughts.

I learned from watching others EXACTLY how much damage that can cause.  And not just to me.

I generally don't like to shut down an invitation to reality in my better moments, but it's truly a matter of everyone's safety that I DON'T try to enlighten myself here.


----------



## Attaman (Sep 18, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> ....
> 
> Hard pass.  I don't care if the invitation was sarcastic or genuine, hard pass on this one.


Entirely understandable. And also why I included the warning: It is neither a particularly light subject matter nor series of examples.


Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I know you JUST SPOKE about shared medical information, but part of my condition includes echolalia, and I mean for way longer than the usual developmental phase of repetition.  I get anywhere near this shit, this is going to repeat endlessly in my words and thoughts.
> 
> I learned from watching others EXACTLY how much damage that can cause.  And not just to me.
> 
> I generally don't like to shut down an invitation to reality in my better moments, but it's truly a matter of everyone's safety that I DON'T try to enlighten myself here.


Oof. My apologies. If it's any small consolation, this probably at least gave a tag to mute for future you's sake / convenience. I would very much recommend against looking up the finer details in this case.


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 18, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I didn't know you considered a few forum posts as someone's only purpose in life. That must make your own life pretty wretched, but it's not my own situation. Also are you that scared I could "contaminate" people with my heretical opinions just because I lament the fact so many people judge others on the basis of their skin color and other such factors?




I think we can both agree that you constantly bring up political topics that are designed to cause arguments.

Nobody is criticising you for not judging people based on their skin colour. This is a good example of the pointless fights you constantly try to start. :\





KimberVaile said:


> With how the British gossip about *figureheads with no actual power *and form an entire tabloid industry on it. I would disagree. It's just as bad in plenty other countries.



Currently some_ really big drama_ about this related to crimes they're accused of.

I completely agree with you that this idea of America being the gaudiest most celebrity-obsessed culture is just a myth. It's something europeans say to each other in order to make ourselves feel superior to americans, tbh.




Firuthi Dragovic said:


> ......yyyyyyeah, I'm going to have to check into the histories of those "saints" one of these days when my brain allows me time to care.  Part of me feels like the modern depictions of these people just stripped out all the bad parts and that they're only "saints" because some distant authority demanded they were.



You're definitely right on that one! Some well known saints canonised in this century faked medical miracles, and covered up evidence when the supposed benefactors of those miracles complained they were being exploited.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 18, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> I think we can both agree that you constantly bring up political topics that are designed to cause arguments.
> 
> Nobody is criticising you for not judging people based on their skin colour. This is a good example of the pointless fights you constantly try to start. :\


I'm confused, you consider that being vocal about judging people based on the color of their skin being bad, is "designed to cause arguments"? we're not in the 1950s you know, it shouldn't be controversial. Yet it apparently is. Whatever the current status quo is (I think you're plainly aware of it), it's not a good thing and perhaps people should have the courage to speak up about it without being compared to a disease by those too cowardly to do so.


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 18, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I'm confused, you consider that being vocal about judging people based on the color of their skin being bad, is "designed to cause arguments"? we're not in the 1950s you know, it shouldn't be controversial. Yet it apparently is. Whatever the current status quo is (I think you're plainly aware of it), it's not a good thing and perhaps people should have the courage to speak up about it without being compared to a disease by those too cowardly to do so.



'Critical race theory' in this context is a poorly defined political bogeyman that regularly does the rounds in conservative circles in the USA.

Constantly trying to start discussions about this political subject is not equivalent to opposing racism.

This is a good example of the binary politics that people are complaining about in this thread. 'Either you agree with my angry talking points or I will insinuate you tolerate racism, one of the worst evils of human history' is the kind of stuff that people are just _tired of_, Frank.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 18, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> 'Critical race theory' in this context is a poorly defined political bogeyman that regularly does the rounds in conservative circles in the USA.
> 
> Constantly trying to start discussions about this political subject is not equivalent to opposing racism.


Oh I'm familiar with the "it's totes not real lol" argument, it generally melts in a blaze of frantic outraged shrieking when the people start speaking up against it because they're fed up with racial indoctrination. Weird, why would these "intellectuals" defend so fanatically something that doesn't exist?
We're tired of the gaslighting and the 1930s tier racial rhetoric


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 18, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Oh I'm familiar with the "it's totes not real lol" argument, it generally melts in a blaze of frantic outraged shrieking when the people start speaking up against it because they're fed up with racial indoctrination. Weird, why would these "intellectuals" defend so fanatically something that doesn't exist?
> We're tired of the gaslighting and the 1930s tier racial rhetoric




This is a good example of the binary politics that people are complaining about in this thread. 'Either you agree with my angry talking points or I will insinuate you tolerate racism, one of the worst evils of human history' is the kind of stuff that people are just tired of, Frank.

Have a look at how silly you're being. In this post, you're implying that people who don't agree with your angry political posts are _like the Germans from the 1930's_.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 18, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> 'Either you agree with my angry talking points or I will insinuate you tolerate racism, one of the worst evils of human history'


Oh the irony

This is just golden, thank you for the laugh


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 18, 2021)

Dying rn





Think we solved the mystery of the unfun fandom gang!


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 18, 2021)

I didn't think I'd have to say this, but...

Frank?

If you want to actually undo some of the ills of society you're seeing, there are _serious_ tactical advantages to not being public about political stances and problems.  Knowing that there are serious risks to this statement (risks that I anticipate people here will endlessly run their mouths about when I spell it out)....

....have you taken any chance to find a like-minded group out there?

(I'm actually not ideal for said group given my short fuse BTW)


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 18, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I didn't think I'd have to say this, but...
> 
> Frank?
> 
> ...


Well apparently I'm "contaminating" people with my evil ideas of rejecting judgement of people based on their skin color, so hopefully this is or shortly will be a like-minded group right here.

Tbh I'm thrilled that it's suddenly considered a bad thing to frivolously compare people to some of the worst humans in history based on simple disagreements! weird it only happens now and the same people had fuckall to say when say, I and my friends were repeatedly at the receiving hand of it. But it's never too late!


----------



## fernshiine (Sep 18, 2021)

I think the community has gotten worse in terms of people tending to only support "big creators" and because of cancel culture. In fact, cancel culture is so bad that I stepped off the internet for most of the year because I was scared of becoming noticed and having to deal with having to put on a facade to be seen as perfect in the public eye. It was a stupid fear riddled with anxiety but one many people face. 

Back in the day blocking people was a thing and I wish people would do that instead again. Block + report would be nice, rather than expose + cause discourse over _political views. _
Political views are often what fuel discourse and cancel culture in the community. I hate it and I get hated on for choosing not to be a part of politics so there's no happy medium. People shove their ideals onto minors and then _they, _in turn, become overly political too. It's just a little much.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 18, 2021)

fernshiine said:


> I think the community has gotten worse in terms of people tending to only support "big creators" and because of cancel culture. In fact, cancel culture is so bad that I stepped off the internet for most of the year because I was scared of becoming noticed and having to deal with having to put on a facade to be seen as perfect in the public eye. It was a stupid fear riddled with anxiety but one many people face.
> 
> Back in the day blocking people was a thing and I wish people would do that instead again. Block + report would be nice, rather than expose + cause discourse over _political views. _
> Political views are often what fuel discourse and cancel culture in the community. I hate it and I get hated on for choosing not to be a part of politics so there's no happy medium. People shove their ideals onto minors and then _they, _in turn, become overly political too. It's just a little much.


Something to understand about these vociferous furry politicos is that they're miserable people

They're miserable about things, and they want YOU to be miserable too, because being miserable is SUPER IMPORTANT and they're lonely in their little sty full of shit, always checking over their shoulder for a knife coming from someone, always ready for a fight because they think if they get in enough fights on the internet that gaping void where their personality would normally be will be filled with a radiant light of righteousness and people will come admire them and they can finally feel GOOD about themselves


----------



## Attaman (Sep 18, 2021)

I'm vaguely curious about the Cancel Culture claims, but mostly because the most prominent examples I can think of in the last few months have been "Fursuit maker who pretended to be black so as they could make comics telling people to stop bothering racists", "Cuddly fox artist who had private chat leaks where they joked about wanting to put shock collars on black people", "Artist known for fetishized trans characters had potentially transmed comments", and "Nazi Con that couldn't even be assed to verify their venue before selling registrations", so either I've been better at filtering my intakes than I thought (only one of the four situations having any sort of ambiguity), I'm forgetting something big (Not impossible: My memory ranges from "Oddly specific and otherwise irrelevant details from twenty years ago" to "I nearly forgot the fourth example despite bringing it up a page ago"), or things have been unusually calm the last season or two (Also not impossible: Lots of people are finally getting out of their houses so that's lots of people who aren't going over people's histories with fine toothed combs).


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 19, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Oh the irony
> 
> This is just golden, thank you for the laugh



Yes it *is* ironic. You would be the first person to cry foul if somebody made this comparison about you. You would bang your fists and throw a tantrum, and whine that it was unfair and irrational. 

But 'Everybody who disagrees with me is like Hitler, everybody who disagrees with me supports the worst evils of mankind,' is the exact argument you just found yourself using.

It's precisely the kind of political dumb-shittery that people say they're fed up with here. You constantly bring these discussions up, and when you get told 'enough with the politics' it's about 5 seconds before you accuse people of being like the Nazis. :\


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 19, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Yes it *is* ironic. You would be the first person to cry foul if somebody made this comparison about you. You would bang your fists and throw a tantrum, and whine that it was unfair and irrational.
> 
> But 'Everybody who disagrees with me is like Hitler, everybody who disagrees with me supports the worst evils of mankind,' is the exact argument you just found yourself using.
> 
> It's precisely the kind of political dumb-shittery that people say they're fed up with here. You constantly bring these discussions up, and when you get told 'enough with the politics' it's about 5 seconds before you accuse people of being like the Nazis. :\


Yes, because it's been done repeatedly. People in position of power do it all the time. But the MOMENT I point out a specific strain of toxic ideology that's oozing everywhere, suddenly doing this is bad? Here you are calling me out for talking about this behavior even tho I'm not actually engaging in it... but you're fucking silent as the SAME PEOPLE everywhere do it all the time to people like me, while you pretend they don't.

What are you doing here even? asking me not to talk about this, comparing me to a disease, but you have NOTHING to say to the person who brought it up in the first place. Is it only bad when I do it somehow?

Fuck off hypocrite


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 19, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> It's precisely the kind of political dumb-shittery that people say they're fed up with here. You constantly bring these discussions up, and when you get told 'enough with the politics' it's about 5 seconds before you accuse people of being like the Nazis. :\


Fallow?

If there's anything I've learned from past experiences with this type of behavior, trauma or perceived forms of such will do this to people and cause them to get stuck in endless loops like we're seeing with Frank here.

In these types of situations, a lecture on character like you're doing DOES. NOT. WORK.  You're reinforcing him.  You're actually making this worse by trying to spell out his faults.

I saw this same type of locked-in trauma-induced behavior with SEVERAL of our previous members (that are now permabanned because they couldn't stop).  Whether they're correct or not is ACTUALLY IRRELELVANT when they've gotten going.


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 19, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Fallow?
> 
> If there's anything I've learned from past experiences with this type of behavior, trauma or perceived forms of such will do this to people and cause them to get stuck in endless loops like we're seeing with Frank here.
> 
> ...




It's just very depressing that efforts to remove angry politics from this site just result in the most angry members with the strongest political views behaving as if those rules apply to everybody else but not to themselves.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 19, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> It's just very depressing that efforts to remove angry politics from this site just result in the most angry members with the strongest and strangest political views behaving as if those rules apply to everybody else but not to themselves.
> 
> I've deliberately avoided making any comment at all about whether I believe frank's opinions have any merit here.


"strangest" is a very interesting valuation coming from you tbh but that's not a subject for here

you've waded right into it before, and certain other members just INSIST on relighting the guttering flames, and honestly I don't think it's going to stop - but I think my popcorn's almost ready anyway


----------



## KimberVaile (Sep 19, 2021)

The historian in me is all to eager to point out how this thread's second wind ended up being a repeat of history.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 19, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> The historian in me is all to eager to point out how this thread's second wind ended up being a repeat of history.


I mean, why would anything change? Can you think of any reason why things would change?


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> "strangest" is a very interesting valuation coming from you tbh but that's not a subject for here
> 
> you've waded right into it before, and certain other members just INSIST on relighting the guttering flames, and honestly I don't think it's going to stop - but I think my popcorn's almost ready anyway



Apologies if this is the wrong language. Perhaps 'esoteric' would be more neutral. 

Topics that are designed to cause outrage, but which are ultimately of quite small consequence for day-to-day life.


----------



## KimberVaile (Sep 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> I mean, why would anything change? Can you think of any reason why things would change?


The thread got shut down last time, I assumed there would be a small chance people would simply leave the topic to be forgotten. I'd feel the thread was actually starting to go in a different direction for a time, though it quickly veered back to familiar territory. Not that I really blame anyone, I just expected this, in the back of my mind.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 19, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Apologies if this is the wrong language. Perhaps 'esoteric' would be more neutral.
> 
> Topics that are designed to cause outrage, but which are ultimately of quite small consequence for day-to-day life.


People LOVE getting angry these days.  It's a drug.  They love making others angry so those other people snap back and make them even angrier.  Righteous rage is a straight up fucking drug and it's one that's completely unregulated and arguably free.  There are so many unmoored, aimless, unhappy people on the internet right now and so many ways to get angry that this entire fucking shitshow might as well be an 80's corporate party replete with 10 foot long rails of coke and bottles of Dom Perignon.

You TELL these people what's going on, and it's like telling Don Quixote to stop fucking tilting at the windmill because it's not really a giant and he's not really a knight of legend.



KimberVaile said:


> The thread got shut down last time, I assumed there would be a small chance people would simply leave the topic to be forgotten. I'd feel the thread was actually starting to go in a different direction for a time, though it quickly veered back to familiar territory. Not that I really blame anyone, I just expected this, in the back of my mind.


Why would people start learning from history NOW if they've failed to do so for... what, millennia? At some point one realizes that people are actually so fucking stupid and prideful (and one's self is no exception) that it's a bloody miracle we haven't managed to cause self-extinction 100 times over by now

I say again: PEOPLE ARE FUCKING MINDBLOWINGLY STUPID


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 19, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> People LOVE getting angry these days.  It's a drug.  They love making others angry so those other people snap back and make them even angrier.  Righteous rage is a straight up fucking drug and it's one that's completely unregulated and arguably free.  There are so many unmoored, aimless, unhappy people on the internet right now and so many ways to get angry that this entire fucking shitshow might as well be an 80's corporate party replete with 10 foot long rails of coke and bottles of Dom Perignon.
> 
> You TELL these people what's going on, and it's like telling Don Quixote to stop fucking tilting at the windmill because it's not really a giant and he's not really a knight of legend.




I think one of the ironies is that some of the most important things in life right now are topics people rarely get fiercely passionate about. 

e.g. recycling or the amount of food we let go to waste. x3


----------



## Deleted member 127940 (Sep 19, 2021)

One of the best ways of dealing with political busybodies of any stripe is to do away with civility entirely. Twitter wouldn't be the problem that is if more people had the balls to tell the more self-righteous denizens of that website to piss off.

FAF can be handled in a similar fashion. Personally, I can't remember the last time I spammed a bunch of graphs or news article links during a typical FAF political spat. Typically I just stroll right on in, briefly assess the situation (it's usually a shitshow cooked up and kept on a low yet steady burn by the same boring windbags whose whole shtick revolves around pontificating on a bunch of social positions that regular people don't care about), spam one or two popcorn gifs, and usually lob a few insulting remarks at the usual suspects for good measure. The moment they plop down a giant paragraph of word-noise for me to read, I slap it with a laugh emote.

The most people these people can do is either ignore you (this is good), block you (this is better and funny, too), or join in on the shenanigans (this is the funniest outcome for me personally because a bunch of people taking the piss out of each other on a furry forum is actually kind of nostalgic in an era where everything is serious and sensitive). Reports don't work because I don't do or say anything too crazy (or it could be because Flamingo is either too apathetic or too distracted to really do anything).

Moral of this post is that getting bent out of shape over the political opinions of dysfunctional, irrelevant, impotent, and anonymous internet people is a gross waste of energy and time. It's a _double _waste of time and energy when the people you're dealing with have a laundry list of poorly-addressed mental illnesses, never truly reached adulthood, or suffer from a combination of the aforementioned two failings. The furry fandom hosts these types in spades which is why it is what it is today.

And it's _*never *_going to change. 

And with people like that, there is no rational or productive discussion to be had. They're broken things. Nothing they say should be taken seriously (ESPECIALLY if it has anything to do with how a society should be structured and ran) until they get their shit together and get some experience outside of furry social spaces, universities, and/or the confines of their parents' home.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 19, 2021)

Another little rejoinder (waste of time probably but hey): if you're a noisy politico and you really like to wave around signs and symbols of how politically aware you are, congratulations you're a simp who tries to buy an identity and a meaningful life from people who could not possibly care any less if you have either.  Moron.  Content people are hard to sell things to, but convince them to be angry and unhappy, offer to sell them solutions... pretty clever of them yeah?


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 19, 2021)

ASTA said:


> One of the best ways of dealing with political busybodies of any stripe is to do away with civility entirely. Twitter wouldn't be the problem that is if more people had the balls to tell the more self-righteous denizens of that website to piss off.
> 
> FAF can be handled in a similar fashion. Personally, I can't remember the last time I spammed a bunch of graphs or news article links during a typical FAF political spat. Typically I just stroll right on in, briefly assess the situation (it's usually a shitshow cooked up and kept on a low yet steady burn by the same boring windbags whose whole shtick revolves around pontificating on a bunch of social positions that regular people don't care about), spam one or two popcorn gifs, and usually lob a few insulting remarks at the usual suspects for good measure. The moment they plop down a giant paragraph of word-noise for me to read, I slap it with a laugh emote.
> 
> The most people these people can do is either ignore you (this is good), block you (this is better and funny, too), or join in on the shenanigans (this is the funniest outcome for me personally because a bunch of people taking the piss out of each other on a furry forum is actually kind of nostalgic in an era where everything is serious and sensitive). Reports don't work because I don't do or say anything too crazy (or it could be because Flamingo is either too apathetic or too distracted to really do anything).


Still more time and effort wasted than a lot of these situations deserve, frankly.

I find it a little surprising that anyone can find the energy to try to mess with people having arguments of this type, and especially find the initiative to be... particularly manipulative about screwing with people.

I'll admit I'd probably pull an ignore/block if hit with the behavior you're describing.  I already know I'm one of the serious/sensitive types, and there's a reason I've increasingly learned to pick my battles far more carefully than the kind of people you're discussing here.  Admittedly this thread was a bit of a slip-up, but my fuse only goes so far.

I'd advise against calling our dominant mod out by name though.  That'll put an end to the "festivities" really quickly.




ASTA said:


> Moral of this post is that getting bent out of shape over the political opinions of dysfunctional, irrelevant, impotent, and anonymous internet people is a gross waste of energy and time. It's a _double _waste of time and energy when the people you're dealing with have a laundry list of poorly-addressed mental illnesses, never truly reached adulthood, or suffer from a combination of the aforementioned two failings. The furry fandom hosts these types in spades which is why it is what it is today.
> 
> And it's _*never *_going to change.
> 
> And with people like that, there is no rational or productive discussion to be had. They're broken things. Nothing they say should be taken seriously (ESPECIALLY if it has anything to do with how a society should be structured and ran) until they get their shit together and get some experience outside of furry social spaces, universities, and/or the confines of their parents' home.


Tragically, this is far too accurate, and this is the piece I actually liked about what you said.

Unfortunately, a worrying number of these people don't seem to understand the entirety of what they're ranting about, or that their methods have a tendency to backfire SPECTACULARLY.  I've gone over this quite a few times in the past and it bears repeating pretty much every time.

....though can we add "neurological" instead of just mental illnesses?  The body can misinform the mind if enough bad things pile up in a person's life.


----------



## MattsyKun (Sep 21, 2021)

Both? But leaning towards worse. 

Small artists have a HELL of a time getting noticed these days. Social media platforms don't want you making money; they want users to look at ads and be on their site for as long as possible, and if you aren't helping them with that, they'll nerf you. I've found it SO hard to get my name and my business out there because I spend a lot of time trying to draw and get stuff made, but I'm not able to post every day like Instagram wants, and if you breathe at your Twitter post wrong they deboost you. It can feel like there's no good way to promote yourself anymore sometimes, because it feels like shouting into a void. 

On the bright side, we're becoming more outspoken about racism, sexism, and abuse. On the not-bright side, people (notably minors, but not exclusively, ofc) keep trying to change the definitions of things in order to cancel people, meaning actual terrible abusers might slip under the radar. In addition, this squashes any sort of conversation about things. Especially with Twitter, everything has become black and white, good or bad, no exceptions allowed. (my local Telegram group recently had a discussion that was calm and rational, nothing like similar "discussions" on Twitter). People have become afraid to speak up for fear of having their business ruined or being canceled. 

On the brightest side, though, there's a lot more resources and tutorials for doing anything furry. I actively remember the few years between merch-making being for the big companies, and small artists making their own merch, and that transformation is AWESOME. There's fursuit tutorials for damn near anything.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 21, 2021)

Something about "you get what you fucking deserve" goes here tbh


----------



## Rimna (Sep 24, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Guys, I play pretend all the time when I rp, can I get paid 6 figures and be worshiped for it too?


I'd worship a fox femboi any day


----------



## MechaMegs (Sep 24, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Well apparently I'm "contaminating" people with my evil ideas of rejecting judgement of people based on their skin color, so hopefully this is or shortly will be a like-minded group right here.
> 
> Tbh I'm thrilled that it's suddenly considered a bad thing to frivolously compare people to some of the worst humans in history based on simple disagreements! weird it only happens now and the same people had fuckall to say when say, I and my friends were repeatedly at the receiving hand of it. But it's never too late!


Wowza talk about a farmer who harvested his crop before it was ready to pop.

Frank you talk on CRT as if you only got your information about CRT from red talking heads in America. Which is to say is made up and sensationalized to create fervor and outrage. 
You yell about biting into a half baked cake because its mush and batter but you didnt even go to the right bakery.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 24, 2021)

MechaMegs said:


> Wowza talk about a farmer who harvested his crop before it was ready to pop.
> 
> Frank you talk on CRT as if you only got your information about CRT from red talking heads in America. Which is to say is made up and sensationalized to create fervor and outrage.
> You yell about biting into a half baked cake because its mush and batter but you didnt even go to the right bakery.


Recommend an author on the subject.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Sep 25, 2021)

MechaMegs said:


> You yell about biting into a half baked cake because its mush and batter but you didnt even go to the right bakery.


The right baker, always makes the best cakes....  I think Frank just needs to shop around some more.

Anyways, at the local Safeway - these were kinda awesome this week.... they were part of the $ Five-Dollar Friday deals.... where the whole thing costs five bucks.... (on Friday only though).


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 25, 2021)

MechaMegs said:


> Wowza talk about a farmer who harvested his crop before it was ready to pop.
> 
> Frank you talk on CRT as if you only got your information about CRT from red talking heads in America. Which is to say is made up and sensationalized to create fervor and outrage.
> You yell about biting into a half baked cake because its mush and batter but you didnt even go to the right bakery.


Oh yeah I know, only other people are biased! never whoever it is _you _listen to! (which is exactly how you make a bias, speaking of recipes)

I bet you didn't even notice you went straight to assumptions about where I got my information without knowing anything about it.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 25, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Oh yeah I know, only other people are biased! never whoever it is _you _listen to! (which is exactly how you make a bias, speaking of recipes)
> 
> I bet you didn't even notice you went straight to assumptions about where I got my information without knowing anything about it.


If they want to argue that people who dislike CRT have never read the right CRT sources it behooves them to direct people towards correct sources, I am rather tired of anyone making this sort of assertion about any given controversial subject and then failing on that important followup

It smacks of someone who just wants to tell people with concerns about controversial subjects "nuh uh, you're just too dumb to appreciate it and listen to the right people!" which is a behavior that needs to come to a screeching fucking halt

And yes there are some pretty understandable concerns about the subjects of CRT, "antiracism" and the things that people like Kendi have said.  Anyone who makes those kinds of blanket accusations aimed at adoptive parents of all people, just to get at ONE JUDGE is going to come across as a maladjusted asshole because he IS


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Sep 25, 2021)

*munches popcorn* 
Think I've seen this flick.  Is this a reboot or bad pre-sequel?

This is why I'm sticking with "fandom is the same, topics change, and we still find a way to make every day Thanksgiving"


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 25, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> *munches popcorn*
> Think I've seen this flick.  Is this a reboot or bad pre-sequel?
> 
> This is why I'm sticking with "fandom is the same, topics change, and we still find a way to make every day Thanksgiving"


Yeah, it's a repeat and it doesn't seem to matter how many I put on ignore there's always another ready to roll through and stoke THIS particular fire.  I've got my dander up after last night and I'm getting sick of this, so let's see if they're up for a fight.


----------



## Attaman (Sep 25, 2021)

I mean, if people are _really_ going to ask for some sources to read up on a subject matter, I'll suggest _Race and Ethnicity in America_ by Ronald H. Bayor. Includes contributions from numerous historians, including Carol Berkin, Andrew Heinze, Earl Lewis, and Mai M. Ngai. It was written in 2003 and covers a wide breadth of subjects such as the Trail of Tears, slavery, anti-catholicism, etcetera. And again it was written in 2003 so if people are afraid some dastardly modern politics slipping in the book's just shy of 18 years old at this point (another month and it'll be old enough to vote!).

E: And before anyone snipes "But what about CRT?" That is it. That's literally CRT. Well, sorry. It's that plus asking "What does that make you think?" But if you're reading books without any intention of thinking you're missing the forest for the trees anyhow.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Sep 25, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> If they want to argue that people who dislike CRT have never read the right CRT sources it behooves them to direct people towards correct sources, I am rather tired of anyone making this sort of assertion about any given controversial subject and then failing on that important followup
> 
> It smacks of someone who just wants to tell people with concerns about controversial subjects "nuh uh, you're just too dumb to appreciate it and listen to the right people!" which is a behavior that needs to come to a screeching fucking halt
> 
> And yes there are some pretty understandable concerns about the subjects of CRT, "antiracism" and the things that people like Kendi have said.  Anyone who makes those kinds of blanket accusations aimed at adoptive parents of all people, just to get at ONE JUDGE is going to come across as a maladjusted asshole because he IS


Well those people support discrimination blatantly, and I judge people primarily by what they do.

But yeah I find it telling that someone would accuse me of being biased, but showcase their own bias instead of even attempting to explain why they think I'm wrong (IF they think I'm wrong; someone knowing they're actually on the wrong side, but defending it anyway, is also a possibility, which is more likely if they won't discuss the topic but instead just blanket-dismiss any concern)


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Sep 25, 2021)

*puts on body armor*


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 25, 2021)

Attaman said:


> E: And before anyone snipes "But what about CRT?" That is it. That's literally CRT. Well, sorry. It's that plus asking "What does that make you think?" But if you're reading books without any intention of thinking you're missing the forest for the trees anyhow.


There is a major, MAJOR difference between "here's the racial problems this country has had" and "you did all this, your group is irredeemable".

While I'll consider the book down the road, the main issue with CRT that I've noticed is the method of delivery, not the content.  It usually boils down to two scenarios:

The person delivering the history tells ONLY the history the overall "dominant" group has done.  No mention of other groups doing oppression (hoo boy), nor whether one group influenced the other.  JUST all about trashing the "dominant" group.
The person delivering the history immediately dismisses counter-arguments that would let them think about either other groups doing the oppression or whether the "dominant" group has left a mark that taints the targeted group's culture.  OR, even more crazily, whether minor groups' beliefs influenced the dominant group in the first place (this is where complaints of "cultural appropriation" fit in).  If I have to un-spaghetti this one, PLEASE speak up.
In short, my guess is that Frank ran into the kind of people teaching CRT that aren't intellectually qualified to be teaching it in the first place.


Now (and this question is for Frank too) can we PLEASE get this topic back to the nature of the fandom specifically?


----------



## Fallowfox (Sep 25, 2021)

*looks in*

nope.


----------



## Regret (Sep 25, 2021)

I find the vote totals to be very amusing.


----------



## O.D.D. (Sep 25, 2021)

Regret said:


> I find the vote totals to be very amusing.


Subtle commentary about voting in general goes here, for some.


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## Regret (Sep 25, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> Subtle commentary about voting in general goes here, for some.



Nothing subtle about it because the beautiful 14, 22, 22, 14 voting pattern has since been destroyed.  

May it forever live on in our hearts.


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## O.D.D. (Sep 25, 2021)

Regret said:


> Nothing subtle about it because the beautiful 14, 22, 22, 14 voting pattern has since been destroyed.
> 
> May it forever live on in our hearts.


The more I think about the concept of voting, in general really, on any scale (forum or otherwise), the sillier and more absurd it looks/feels.


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 25, 2021)




----------



## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 1, 2021)

I think its gotten a little worse.
But some of that can be explained by missing it evolve in my 10+ year absence. A lot has changed. I am also fairly modest I guess on some things.

There used to be a more tight knit feeling to forums, and growing and changing talking to the same people for years and years. Forums were the rage, and you had a post legacy more or less where anyone could fall back on your previous comments and get to know you.

Now with the push to more IM based groups, discord, telegram, etc I feel you lost a little bit of that. We had IRC, and MSN, and such back when...but those were additional over the forums that seemed to just gather the most traffic.

I have tried to get back into things locally, but I think I have aged out of some of the furry scene as am the oldest in my local group. There is a lot more public exhibition than I recall there being, and while there was always drama with furries, it seems there's a lot more attention seeking based drama than I recall. There seems to be a little bit more invasion of personal space than I really recall ( I get my butt grabbed, which if I know you I guess thats fine... But people also pick me up because I am small...I do NOT like this). Some people are just really aggressively thirsty too and my private messages there for a while got pretty annoying.

there also seems to be a lot more fetishizing of some aspects that, don't sit well with me. People are free to like what they like...but don't try and push it on others or rationalize to everyone.

and oh gawd the politics. I come to the furry fandom to get away from real life, not be slapped in the face with it...


----------



## lolox (Oct 1, 2021)

@Christine Vulpes

Wow, you just summed up things perfectly. At least the way I see them.

It's hard to tell if I feel different [about today] because I'm getting older, or because things truly are not the same as they used to be. That tight knit feeling of being part of something isn't really a feeling I get anymore, especially not on modern social media sites. Twitter and similar networks just feel like an unordered torrent of chaos. Anything shared there is just tossed into the wind and instantly forgotten. I get no sense of community from those, only a sense of isolation. Nothing really seems to matter and nothing really goes anywhere. Discussions can't have depth, or even if they do, it doesn't matter because it's all just temporary entertainment for people that crave constant stimulation. It's no wonder people feel so bad today, if nothing is of consequence. If the only way to be seen is to do something outrageous, and even then, it won't matter. I think we need that sense of belonging and meaning, and Twitter (and the like) provides neither. It only makes you unhappy.

The fandom used to be about escapism - about dreaming yourself away to a different world inhabited by these wonderful anthropomorphic beings. And now, instead, people exploit it to further whatever dogma they happen to have fallen victim for, whether that be political or religious. It creeps me out, and it makes me very upset and disappointed people would tarnish it that way.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Oct 1, 2021)

I cannot speak much for the rest of the fandom, or whether they have eluded the overall sickness plaguing society...

I can at least say that my experience here has improved considerably since I started.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 1, 2021)

@lolox 
Some of it I think is the local (American - especially since there seems to be a disproportionally large American furry user base) climate right now.  We have loved our labels and trying to force people into neat categories for a long time.  This in itself creates in groups, out groups, and leads to a tendency to other... others.  If you don't fit into someone's pre-defined category for you (whatever this may entail) someone comes along to bash you over it. 'no true scotsman' fallacy / purity testing seems to be popular these days. 

_I though the fandom would be a place that would discourage this type of behavior, but it seems that it really is just a small slice of the real world condensed down.  Maybe years ago I just did not see it, or people hid it better. Maybe I was just dumb, or maybe now I am just jaded and cynical. I dunno._

The fandom used to be great because we did not seem to engage in that as much. Everyone was free to make up a new persona, leaving baggage behind. No gods, no masters, no countries, no allegiances. Just us starting a new life online to meet friends in a fantasy setting of our choosing. Maybe its an interstellar space opera! Maybe its a high fantasy realm! Maybe its a technocratic cyber punk future! Maybe its a jules verne like steam punk world we never had!

Just a bunch of weirdos with common interests in the love of anthro-animals. I hope here re-kindles this for me, instead of how toxic some local groups have become.

@Firuthi Dragovic 
I am glad that for you it has improved considerably. Would you be inclined to share why that is? I like hearing things that are positive


----------



## Crimcyan (Oct 1, 2021)

I'd say better because alot of people have stopped putting up with zoophiles, pedo's, homophobes/transphobes making them not welcomed in spaces in the fandom.
Alot more support towards artists by not putting them down when they try to raise prices but supporting the price raises.


----------



## O.D.D. (Oct 1, 2021)

Crimcyan said:


> I'd say better because alot of people have stopped putting up with zoophiles, pedo's, homophobes/transphobes making them not welcomed in spaces in the fandom.
> Alot more support towards artists by not putting them down when they try to raise prices but supporting the price raises.


Most furry artists work for a FRACTION of what an artist of their caliber would make in almost any other sphere

Also, while I want there to be MUCH less of a predator problem in the fandom, I also want kids to stay out of the Red Light Districts of the fandom and part of me wonders if having a bad rep because of people like Growly facilitates this or not even in his potential permanent absence from said fandom.


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## TyraWadman (Oct 1, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> Most furry artists work for a FRACTION of what an artist of their caliber would make in almost any other sphere


This. 99% of my observation/experience is "you seriously want $30 for a drawing I can't even hang up on my wall???".



O.D.D. said:


> Also, while I want there to be MUCH less of a predator problem in the fandom, I also want kids to stay out of the Red Light Districts of the fandom and part of me wonders if having a bad rep because of people like Growly facilitates this or not even in his potential permanent absence from said fandom.



I was already in the Red Light district as a minor because I was curious. 

And then I learned what a furry was...


----------



## Rayd (Oct 1, 2021)

i've been in the fandom for around 6 years, and although i don't particularly believe it's changed all that much, i don't think it's been very great to begin with. it felt fine for the first year or two but i think that's just because i was blinded by my excitement for being apart of something i was interested in for a long time. i was blind to the things that later felt wrong to me.

i do agree with the high school comparison, and i don't think it's a coincidence that it's brought up so often when referring to this fandom. it's very obvious to see that artists are idolized and basically can do no wrong in the eyes of the general community, and if somebody calls them out for bad business etiquette or something they did, _they're _the bad guy. there are also a lot of artists that use this untouchable status as a dishonest utility use in their work, such as ghosting people who commissioned them for months because they know they can, with or without an excuse. there's a lot of dishonest things that i think artists do solely to abuse their status and it gets under my skin. i often feel i can't even vent about this topic because i'm scared i'll get crucified. that just goes to show how much power artists really have.

similarly, it has always seemed to me that people who have the time and money to commission 50 pieces of their sona a month are also treated with a certain level of praise, who more often than not only seem to interact with those with similar activity or status. it's hard not to feel a sense of hierarchy when you constantly see that the people with lots of friends, attention and status privileges are typically those with lots of money or a talented skillset. but i suppose thats the case with life in general, so i try my best not to complain.

i've also had continuously repetitive poor experiences in the social side of this fandom to the point where i have this genuine subconscious belief that most of the people in it are manipulative, sociopathic, egocentric and vindictive people. this has made me extremely apprehensive towards going out of my way to meet new people and being outgoing. the way i see it nowadays, trying to socialize in any sort of furry community is like playing minesweeper to me. i've not found a friend that has lasted yet and frankly i'm not counting on it anytime soon.

i guess the one thing off the top of my head that has changed is that there's definitely not as many people wanting others to literally die over political beliefs. i remember when twitter was palatable.


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## O.D.D. (Oct 1, 2021)

Rayd said:


> most of the people in it are manipulative, sociopathic, egocentric and vindictive people


They are, yes.  The fandom is self-selecting for this in a lot of ways - you're not here to show your real face, most likely, or be your real self.  You're here to put on a mask, so to speak, and while some are here for a masquerade ball, others are here to hurt people.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Oct 2, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Eh... I voted the same on this one. As I don't see much fluctuation in the overall environment, (in all honesty).... either for better, or for worse.... and so, I guess - there's no real change, from my perspective.


BTW - there's _"bad apples in every bunch"_.... as they say.... and so- the extreme cases (that many people often point to, as a symbol of what's wrong in this community) - isn't really reflective of the whole barrel - many of us would remind them.

And so - sometimes focusing on the whole picture - is often times more beneficial, and more accurate, than focusing on just a handful of extreme, unpleasant cases.... that many detractors often times like to fixate on.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 2, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> BTW - there's _"bad apples in every bunch"_.... as they say.... and so- the extreme cases (that many people often point to, as a symbol of what's wrong in this community) - isn't really reflective of the whole barrel - many of us would remind them.
> 
> And so - sometimes focusing on the whole picture - is often times more beneficial, and more accurate, than focusing on just a handful of extreme, unpleasant cases.... that many detractors often times like to fixate on.


I think when people are using this argument with the fandom there is something you over look by assuming because the whole average is mostly okay, that its all kosher. It introduces cognitive biases, and logical fallacies and is generally a bad thing to do when dealing with sociology - blanket averages always work for hard sciences, but not always soft sciences.

There seems to be a disproportional representation of some fringe issues inside the fandom*.* Is this because people are just more open so they have a higher chance of getting outed? I think this is part of it, and that its just a representation of the general population. But it also begs the question of why? Why are they more open about those things? Clearly the furry fandoms inclusion and acceptance of a lot of people gets interpreted incorrectly.

There is a lot of grooming that seems to go on, adults making advances on younger people. If you would like to see for yourself, say you are 15 year old girl or a 13 year old boy and just wait. Someone is going to be _DYING_ to RP with you and they are probably 30+. 

_Its a personal anecdote and thus meaningless... but the 2nd or Third guy I spoke with online in the very early 2000s? He was double my age. It was super weird, and I stopped chatting with him. 2 years later he sent me a message saying he moved to my city and wanted to meet up, and then kept messaging me for YEARS. HE STILL SENDS EMAILS. I have not responded in a decade. This does not seem normal, and I have never had anything like this happen outside of the fandom._

People talk about other aspects too. And lets be real IF you go to e621 and type in <animal type> it seems like a 1/3 of your results are just "feral"...or just straight up dogs and wolves railing each other or anthro/human people. This seems to be getting pretty close to zoophilic IMO.

And I am not even going to touch cub stuff with a 49 1/2 foot pole. *shudders*

Then you have some people that try and pass the fandom off as "mostly normal" with a sexualized minority. But I think this is disingenuous as well, just based on the shear volume of smut. My PFP is a cropped in Nude - I do not think its smut as much as a more classical romantic style art as there is no visible genitalia, but its still possibly suggestive and a lot of people would find not normal and objectionable.

The first conventions were highly sexualized including burlesqe/strip tease shows, and the artists have (mostly male - I am not sure if the female artists that were popular in the mid 90s ever commented on this) commented that there were after hours activities going on in the hotel rooms. Also IIRC they did not split the adult booths from the general booths as is common now. Its was all together at once.

These are the things people think about when they say the fandom has issues.

I guess the long and short is I think its a lot more complicated than "as a whole we are angels and good- but there are a few bad apples" Because A few bad apples REALLY CAN spoil the bunch.


----------



## O.D.D. (Oct 2, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> I think when people are using this argument with the fandom there is something you over look by assuming because the whole average is mostly okay, that its all kosher. It introduces cognitive biases, and logical fallacies and is generally a bad thing to do when dealing with sociology - blanket averages always work for hard sciences, but not always soft sciences.
> 
> There seems to be a disproportional representation of some fringe issues inside the fandom*.* Is this because people are just more open so they have a higher chance of getting outed? I think this is part of it, and that its just a representation of the general population. But it also begs the question of why? Why are they more open about those things? Clearly the furry fandoms inclusion and acceptance of a lot of people gets interpreted incorrectly.
> 
> ...


Normally what stays in art, even if it profoundly disgusts me, is not something I will make a huge sticking point (notable exception for art specifically created to harm someone else)

but the number of times someone in the fandom gets outed as a sex pest and their gallery is full of that kind of thing is so high, I think it's reasonable to consider it a red flag/point of concern


----------



## TyraWadman (Oct 2, 2021)

lolox said:


> @Christine Vulpes
> It's hard to tell if I feel different [about today] because I'm getting older, or because things truly are not the same as they used to be.



It's both, really. Ten years ago you basically had to be hazed in order to get into a conversation with anyone. I can't really say it's changed for some pockets of individuals, but ten years is a huge leap of time for things and people to change. Sites are easy to access, policies change, people come and go from all different walks of life... you're going through your own. You are becoming more aware of things you may not  have had exposure to, and new life challenges/problems to overcome.



lolox said:


> That tight knit feeling of being part of something isn't really a feeling I get anymore, especially not on modern social media sites. Twitter and similar networks just feel like an unordered torrent of chaos. Anything shared there is just tossed into the wind and instantly forgotten. I get no sense of community from those, only a sense of isolation. Nothing really seems to matter and nothing really goes anywhere. Discussions can't have depth, or even if they do, it doesn't matter because it's all just temporary entertainment for people that crave constant stimulation. It's no wonder people feel so bad today, if nothing is of consequence. If the only way to be seen is to do something outrageous, and even then, it won't matter. I think we need that sense of belonging and meaning, and Twitter (and the like) provides neither. It only makes you unhappy.



I could argue that no fandom (as a whole) has ever been organized and welcoming, but the question is, are you looking for a sense of belonging in a digital space, or something a little more local? Do you know that you are loved/care for yourself? I can definitely agree that 99.99% of online relationships are impersonal and most of them have been 5+ year investments that have left me empty-handed every time, but it's either I give up and never succeed, or I keep trying and make my own happiness. 



lolox said:


> The fandom used to be about escapism - about dreaming yourself away to a different world inhabited by these wonderful anthropomorphic beings. And now, instead, people exploit it to further whatever dogma they happen to have fallen victim for, whether that be political or religious. It creeps me out, and it makes me very upset and disappointed people would tarnish it that way.



I can definitely agree that there is more political mud-slinging than most would like, but it can be helpful to pay attention sometimes. Especially if they decide to change some laws that might affect your corner of the internet. DX Religion is easy enough to avoid though. Unless you provoke the conversation, you can just click and move on.

If people are using the fandom as a coping mechanism (and not for any other reason like it being fun or something), then it's no surprise that things start to look dull after a few years. You've seen and done everything it's had to offer and if you're still unhappy, either you've got something like depression, or you have yet to tackle the real underlying issue. I personally went through something similar with RP in general. I'd seen and learned everything there was to learn. Everyone used the same vocabulary and made the same characters (people REALLY like to stick with classics with no deviation whatsoever). I was bored and disappointed. I had this idea that I would never find an RP to look forward to ever again, so instead of just waiting for someone to impress me, I dedicated that extra time to chipping away at my own stories. Been a lot happier that way, too! 

The fandom can still be about escapism/fun. You just have to make it for yourself, and not what everyone else thinks.


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## TyraWadman (Oct 2, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> @Firuthi Dragovic
> I am glad that for you it has improved considerably. Would you be inclined to share why that is? I like hearing things that are positive



For me, I've seen how easy it is for people to connect. People here meet up on the forums and then join each others discord groups. The overall quality of art has significantly improved, conventions are more than a rare/occasional occurrence, whereas before, people would barely catch wind of it unless you happened to be local. I also imagine it's a lot easier to actually organize these events. I do believe there have been controversies/issues with blocking hotel rooms off just because people didn't like/understand the idea at first, and have eased up over the years.

LOTS of people have connected through their adventures in meaningful ways that they otherwise might never have had. But I can't really speak on their behalf.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Oct 3, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> I think when people are using this argument with the fandom there is something you over look by assuming because the whole average is mostly okay, that its all kosher. It introduces cognitive biases, and logical fallacies and is generally a bad thing to do when dealing with sociology - blanket averages always work for hard sciences, but not always soft sciences.
> 
> There seems to be a disproportional representation of some fringe issues inside the fandom*.* Is this because people are just more open so they have a higher chance of getting outed? I think this is part of it, and that its just a representation of the general population. But it also begs the question of why? Why are they more open about those things? Clearly the furry fandoms inclusion and acceptance of a lot of people gets interpreted incorrectly.
> 
> ...


Okay... 
My points above, still apply though, as that's what many of us think and believe.


----------



## ferretsage (Oct 19, 2021)

It was always _bad._ But, its denizens adapted to expect extremely little. Hard to qualify if underachiever identitarians who enforce everyone to go nowhere counts as, "better".


----------



## BadRoy (Nov 17, 2021)

I think the fandom, like many online cultures, is worse now than in the past. 

I place most of the blame for this on social media and the endless stratification of groups. Back in _MY_ day being a furry meant you were first and foremost a nerd for anthro media, full stop. There were gamers, and musicians, and pervs, same as now but it felt much more centralized around the anthro pre-social media. 

Twitter has almost supplanted FA as the main furry hub now. It's not that I think FA is so great, but the fact that furries are just congregating in a general space is really the whole difference. Decentralization. These days 'furry' is just one of many identifiers the average furry has. 'Furry' is competing with "Comics fan | Liberal/ Conservative | LGBT | Vegan | Collector | Trans | Activist" and so on. *People are coming at the furry fandom from so many different angles now that I just feel like it's lost some of its identity.* 

Side note: But I also feel like cons have increasingly become just hubs for people trying to get laid. Maybe it's just the ones I've been to but, ugh.


----------



## ferretsage (Nov 18, 2021)

Also, *posts Maslow's Heirarchy of Human Needs*. People go where human needs are met. Furry can't compete with other better communities when furry only offers ego boosts and porn. Ultimately, people will go where their needs are met, and that's why furry's base is drying up. This isn't a call for change; lord knows anyone wise would rather apply eye ointment to a kennel full of angry, nervous, bite-y chihuahuas than be furry fandom's PR agent -- let alone throw their life away in vain as its misguided savior. Furry fandom's downgoing and losing its support, and being subsumed back into the wider monolithic culture as just another human unsustainable fad, is just facts; math.


----------



## Kinguyakki (Nov 18, 2021)

O.D.D. said:


> Normally what stays in art, even if it profoundly disgusts me, is not something I will make a huge sticking point (notable exception for art specifically created to harm someone else)
> 
> but the number of times someone in the fandom gets outed as a sex pest and their gallery is full of that kind of thing is so high, I think it's reasonable to consider it a red flag/point of concern


Yes, this.  Just yesterday I saw a new comic art on my FA feed, depicting two guys checking out a girl at a gym while she was working out.  What happened next was absolutely not consent.  The comic ended with the girl being left bound and gagged in the men's locker room, while one of the guys said something about the football team finding her here later, like it was a joke what they'd do to her. 
Most of the comments were very positive, except for one that simply pointed out NONE of the keywords for that art said anything about rape.  It was stuff like "threesome" or "group sex."
I get that people have their fetishes, and the fandom is very open and accepting about most of them, but this absolutely wasn't the first time I've seen rape celebrated in art, and people not even acknowledging that's what it really was.  It might be a fantasy some people have. . .but call it what it is.  Some of that mentality probably does bleed over into people's real life interactions within the fandom.


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## Judge Spear (Nov 18, 2021)

BadRoy said:


> I think the fandom, like many online cultures, is worse now than in the past.
> 
> I place most of the blame for this on social media and the endless stratification of groups. Back in _MY_ day being a furry meant you were first and foremost a nerd for anthro media, full stop. There were gamers, and musicians, and pervs, same as now but it felt much more centralized around the anthro pre-social media.
> 
> ...


Furries dying to have their hobby commidified and mistaking it for "representation" or getting more popular is definitely rotting the fandom faster. There's nothing sacred or deep about being a furry, but keeping it a niche was what allowed the whole thing to be charming in the first place.

Now everyone wants to be "validated" and it just erodes the fun for everybody they share the space with. 

You raise a good point.


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## Nexus Cabler (Nov 18, 2021)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a significantly large number of posts explaining how fandom has turned sour correlate with Tw#tter and sometimes F@cebook. If a lot of your bad experiences (I have some too) stem from these places, use them less if you can.

I understand that it's a prominent way for content creators, specifically artists to keep a active business through advertisement, so I understand it's not something everyone can do so easily.


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## Attaman (Nov 18, 2021)

Nexus Cabler said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but a significantly large number of posts explaining how fandom has turned sour correlate with Tw#tter and sometimes F@cebook. If a lot of your bad experiences (I have some too) stem from these places, use them less if you can.
> 
> I understand that it's a prominent way for content creators, specifically artists to keep a active business through advertisement, so I understand it's not something everyone can do so easily.


Now now, let's be fair. Several of the posts talking about how the fandom's turned sour also make mention of Furries... uh...

Let me check the notes on this...

Several of the posts talking about how the fandom's turned sour also make mention of... members sharing that they have other hobbies? And / or openly sharing that they're something other than cishetero? With sometimes the latter being rolled up into the first for some reason? Which if we accept that as logical: Damn. Have to say I'm pretty bummed out about this ace hobby of mine. I probably should have picked up gay instead - just look at how active the Gay Ol' Thread is in comparison - but at this point I've sunk over a decade into it and I don't think I have the energy to start over from scratch. Y'know?

More seriously it feels like some of the complaints aren't even site specific (though there is a lot of that too) so much as people balking against an increasing expectation of... like, I don't even want to say "socialization", but "object permanence"? "There is somebody on the other side of the screen and they may not be entirely or accurately represented by their funny animal person".

Gods. I really have been on FAF too long when I can clearly recall the site actively talking about souring on the fandom for the exact opposite reason. "I post on FAF because it's the only site Furries seem to have any openly identifying features other than 'Furry' and you can talk with the person instead of the character."


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## Judge Spear (Nov 18, 2021)

Nexus Cabler said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but a significantly large number of posts explaining how fandom has turned sour correlate with Tw#tter and sometimes F@cebook. If a lot of your bad experiences (I have some too) stem from these places, use them less if you can.


That's part of it, but for me it's not entirely about bad experiences. More so being funneled into one site instead of having a healthy selection of grassroots options. Something crops up, fizzles out and then everyone goes back to Twitter.
But you're right. I've been using Twitter sparingly these days because I'm sick of feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. Only logging on to upload my work.
If fans find my server they join it and that's how I interact with them mainly today. But it gets dull quickly.

There's this place, but I don't hold in as high regard as I used to.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Nov 18, 2021)

I still feel like most of the changes aren't fandom-specific so much as the basics of "being a person on the Internet" has shifted a _ton_ in the last 20 years. The way we relate to the Internet has changed, almost everyone is "always connected" rather than having to balance being on the Internet with not tying up the phone line, and/or paying for your connection per minute. So, yeah, social media has changed furry fandom, _because it changed online-ness_. It's not really possible/plausible for furry fandom to stand there like some unchanging constant while online culture shifts around it.

Though in all honesty, regardless of anything else, I don't think "better" and "worse" as binaries are great for describing how a cultural phenomenon has changed. Like... individual changes can sometimes be pretty clearly good or bad, but you can't just tally up marks in the "good" and "bad" column and conclude that there's a net improvement/worsening, because it's not that simple. And that's just for changes that have a clear, objective value. Many won't.



BadRoy said:


> I place most of the blame for this on social media and the endless stratification of groups. Back in _MY_ day being a furry meant you were first and foremost a nerd for anthro media, full stop. There were gamers, and musicians, and pervs, same as now but it felt much more centralized around the anthro pre-social media.
> 
> Twitter has almost supplanted FA as the main furry hub now.


Pray tell, when are you thinking of when you talk about what things were like back in your day? Because, like... FA sure wasn't the main furry hub when I got started - it didn't even exist yet. Most of the furry communities I participated in were on Livejournal. The big gallery site _du jour_ was VCL. Real-time group communication was largely done by IRC or on assorted MU*s.


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 18, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> That's part of it, but for me it's not entirely about bad experiences. More so being funneled into one site instead of having a healthy selection of grassroots options. Something crops up, fizzles out and then everyone goes back to Twitter.
> But you're right. I've been using Twitter sparingly these days because I'm sick of feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. Only logging on to upload my work.
> If fans find my server they join it and that's how I interact with them mainly today. But it gets dull quickly.
> 
> There's this place, but I don't hold in as high regard as I used to.


Twitter is where conversation goes to die under an avalanche of Sponsored Tweets(TM) and shitflinging contests.  You can try to curate your feed very heavily to filter out shitflingers and corporate smarm and Twitter will find ways to shove it right back down your gullet.

There's a certain degree of people in general backing away from more public venues into increasingly secluded ones that can be more heavily curated, leaving the habitual shitflingers and corpodrones to dominate public areas - the precise reasons for this seclusion are myriad.  Attention spans are lower, people are chasing the dragons of righteous publicly-visible rage and being the Next Big Thing, and a lot of people are straight-up burnt the fuck out on other people.  I don't think people were really ready for the Global Internet Community and all it entailed.


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## Judge Spear (Nov 18, 2021)

Ennui Elemental said:


> Twitter is where conversation goes to die under an avalanche of Sponsored Tweets(TM) and shitflinging contests.  You can try to curate your feed very heavily to filter out shitflingers and corporate smarm and Twitter will find ways to shove it right back down your gullet.


I literally unfollowed everyone and use Tweetdeck so that I don't have to see anything. lol
I just got so...tired.


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 18, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> I literally everyone and use Tweetdeck so that I don't have to see anything. lol
> I just got so...tired.


Twitter has sabotaged things like sharable blocklists and other ways to curate feeds, I'm astonished they haven't found a way to nuke things like Tweetdeck.

Something to remember about Twitter is that they have a distinct, vested interest in bombarding you with things to PAY ATTENTION TO.  The latest controversy, the newest product, etc.  They don't care if you're engaging because you're enthusiastic about X, or pissed about Y, or concerned about Z, as long as you're feeding into the metrics they use to sell you to the people who pay them.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Nov 19, 2021)

Ennui Elemental said:


> Something to remember about Twitter is that they have a distinct, vested interest in bombarding you with things to PAY ATTENTION TO. The latest controversy, the newest product, etc. They don't care if you're engaging because you're enthusiastic about X, or pissed about Y, or concerned about Z, as long as you're feeding into the metrics they use to sell you to the people who pay them.


I ultimately had to stop using Twitter - and in fact, any social media with more engagement than YouTube, or video game chatrooms, or forums like these - specifically because I realized that engagement on the level that most social media demands is downright dangerous for me.

I'm prone to meltdowns and have a bit of an addictive personality.  That is NOT a good combination for social media.  That's not a good combo for handling political shitstorms (like the ones you oh so often see on Twitter).  That isn't even a good one for engaging with news and current events.  Hence I try my hardest not to anymore.

I've had to repeatedly tell YouTube to stop recommending me certain channels because of my own outrage problem.

Plus, if people are going to tell me I must know what is going on in the world?  I no longer gain much of anything by "knowing about the world".  I learned too much too fast, and it pretty much eroded my curiosity down to near-minimum.


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## BadRoy (Nov 19, 2021)

I'm really curious to see how the growth of social media has affected 'specialty/hobby sites' like FA and others. Because it seems to me that when people realized they could get way more upc*mmies (dopamine-sparking likes, faves, retweets, etc) by shitposting on Twitter or Facebook they ditched the relatively slow trickle of them from FA. 

I've definitely seen furry artists fall to social media over the years. Some artists who used to put their all into improving and pushing themselves seemed to stall after going to social media. Or they'd switch to just sketching whatever the trend of the week is for the likes. It also seems to have given many a crippling case of upward social comparison as they endlessly scroll through the work of better artists and compare their like numbers. This happens on any art site of course, but as with most things Twitter is so much worse because it's stripped down.


quoting_mungo said:


> I still feel like most of the changes aren't fandom-specific so much as the basics of "being a person on the Internet" has shifted a ton in the last 20 years.


This is true, and sort of what I was getting at before. To your question: I wasn't trying to imply that FA was THE hub of furry activity. Moreso that any by-and-for furry space was more active and populous back then. 

Sorry for going off on social media so much. I hate it with a passion. Maybe I'll make a thread for that.


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 19, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I ultimately had to stop using Twitter - and in fact, any social media with more engagement than YouTube, or video game chatrooms, or forums like these - specifically because I realized that engagement on the level that most social media demands is downright dangerous for me.
> 
> I'm prone to meltdowns and have a bit of an addictive personality.  That is NOT a good combination for social media.  That's not a good combo for handling political shitstorms (like the ones you oh so often see on Twitter).  That isn't even a good one for engaging with news and current events.  Hence I try my hardest not to anymore.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing about being bombarded with ragebait or controversy - there's this nagging knowledge that you can't actually DO anything about it but scream about it.  How much good does that do? Well, it varies, but typically it does fuckall other than piss other people off and burn them out.


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## Judge Spear (Nov 19, 2021)

BadRoy said:


> Or *they'd switch to just sketching whatever the trend of the week is for the likes. *It also seems to have given many a crippling case of upward social comparison as they endlessly scroll through the work of better artists and compare their like numbers. This happens on any art site of course, but as with most things Twitter is so much worse because it's stripped down.


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 19, 2021)

Furries have always been fairly prone to trendchasing but Twitter's prevalence has turned that up past 11 and snapped the knob right off.


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## Attaman (Nov 19, 2021)

I'm not really sure I'd say trend chasing has become _worse_ or even necessarily _changed_ as a result of Twitter et al.

For a couple basic examples: Insect characters were _extremely_ uncommon (as well as seen as an attempt to Make A Scene of your character, to the point of often being compared to Sparkledogs) until WhiteMantis and their works became popular, at which point suddenly there was a _deluge_ of such characters who either clearly mimicked WM's style or tried to latch onto the popularity by taking what people already knew how to draw (Wolves and Dragons, predominantly), changing the colors around / adding antennae, and declaring "Bug"[1].

Then there were the aeromorphs, which have stuck around but had one _hell_ of a surge due to all of... a popular story on 4chan in the very early 2010's? And the deluge of flash-based Transformation games from around the same time (based around... Nimin's, IIRC?). Late 3.5 / Early 4E D&D also saw a _ton_ of Dragonborn OCs. Heck, every time a new Pokémon Generation's been announced there's been a rush to be the first to make OCs of the various designs (sometimes even before the designs have actually been _revealed_, such as when people made OCs based off popular silhouette interpretations). And none of this gets into the meme stuff.  

Things haven't changed as a result of Twitter et al. It's just become more obvious since the fandom's no longer confined to people posting on a handful of art sites and a scattering of assorted webcomics. ... And tumblr, but tumblr was always relatively low visibility due to how it's designed.

[1]For reference, this isn't necessarily a knock on people having their own interpretations of funny animals. How _dare_. It's just to point out that for many people it was simply "Got to crank out buggos".


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## TyraWadman (Nov 19, 2021)

It's amazing how many people bring up their hatred for twitter/drama but do their best to talk about it whenever they can. It's like the new 'im vegan'. XD

I only hear about twitter news because the people that claim to hate it so much, keep bringing it up. 

People wanting to be popfur is nothing new and it will never change. People having a like addiction and seeking validation will never change. As one generation moves up and matures, another generation takes over. 

It's a choice of choosing to subscribe to drama vs not and it ain't that hard! I tried using a Twitter account for character research (subscribing to thinks they like and seeing what the algorithm feeds me) and not one single drop of drama has popped into my feed, unless you count lil Nas marketing off his haters, drama.


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## Raever (Nov 19, 2021)

I'd say it's gotten better by standard definitions; bigger, more "mainstream", more "acceptance" within the community, and so on. As for there being an invisible wall between normal members and popular artists, maybe - but that's also dependant on the artist I think.

I know many relatively popular artists who are just as happy to have a conversation, they might sometimes lack time to talk for hours but chances are they will give an opinion here or a laugh there if you give them the chance. A lot of artists who are full-time artists are often spending all of their free time with loved ones because they rarely get to. You'd be surprised how much time art actually takes up. 
Even for the pros.


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## Judge Spear (Nov 19, 2021)

Attaman said:


> I'm not really sure I'd say trend chasing has become _worse_ or even necessarily _changed_ as a result of Twitter et al.


I think he's talking about the individual memes that come up weekly. "Draw X character in this shirt" that kind of thing. It always existed, but I've never really recalled it being this frequent when I used Weasyl. I don't know if maybe the frequency within the NSFW side of things, but in my experience it surpasses even what I would see on Twitter. There was a pressure I'd feel to hop on several art bandwagons but I just wouldn't. 

I don't think that's really furry exclusive or necessarily the worst shit ever though.



TyraWadman said:


> It's amazing how many people bring up their hatred for twitter/drama but do their best to talk about it whenever they can. It's like the new 'im vegan'. XD
> 
> I only hear about twitter news because the people that claim to hate it so much, keep bringing it up.
> 
> ...


I assume this is a lot of words for "shut the fuck up".
The topic is about whether or not someone believes the furry scene is getting worse. If someone believes Twitter is aiding in that degradation, accurate or not, I don't see the issue in discussing it? This isn't some random rant thread "I Hate Twitter". It's a relevant criticism. 

The last few people to mention Twitter have stated they left it or minimized their usage. And you're not gonna just *forget* your reasons to cold turkey a place. I don't see your point.


----------



## Raever (Nov 19, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> I assume this is a lot of words for "shut the fuck up".
> The topic is about whether or not someone believes the furry scene is getting worse. If someone believes Twitter is aiding in that degradation, accurate or not, I don't see the issue in discussing it? This isn't some random rant thread "I Hate Twitter". It's a relevant criticism.
> 
> The last few people to mention Twitter have stated they left it or minimized their usage. And you're not gonna just *forget* your reasons to cold turkey a place. I don't see your point.



I think what they meant was the sorts who actively complain about twitter whilst using is regularly as part of an every day routine, not the ones who minimized or halted usage due to their dislike of it. While I understand why/how you'd be offended, I think this is just wires crossing due to miscommunication. I doubt they were telling half a thread to shut up. -_-;


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## Nexus Cabler (Nov 19, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> I assume this is a lot of words for "shut the fuck up".
> The topic is about whether or not someone believes the furry scene is getting worse. If someone believes Twitter is aiding in that degradation, accurate or not, I don't see the issue in discussing it? This isn't some random rant thread "I Hate Twitter". It's a relevant criticism.
> 
> The last few people to mention Twitter have stated they left it or minimized their usage. And you're not gonna just *forget* your reasons to cold turkey a place. I don't see your point.


I've known Tyra for a bit, she isn't trying to be rude here. She's very civil on these forums.

She's just pointing out how we've kind of wandered from the main topic to this narrow subject regarding a social media platform, that's been in a lot of posts. It's something I mentioned myself earlier as well.

It's just a misunderstanding here, no disrespect aimed towards anyone.


----------



## Attaman (Nov 19, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> I think he's talking about the individual memes that come up weekly. "Draw X character in this shirt" that kind of thing. It always existed, but I've never really recalled it being this frequent when I used Weasyl.


Once again, the frequency isn't really something new. You could always see what was popular any one particular week / month by looking for trends on the front page. Of which there were often many.

Part of the reason this likely seems different now is that a lot of the internet is far more interconnected, so whereas before each Furry site was something of a vacuum (often at least semi-enforced at that: FA wanting to be distinct from SF wanting to be distinct from IB wanting to...) now there's a lot more bleedover between online communities leading to something popular on one site inevitably trickling over to another. Before it was fairly easy to miss whatever was trending, now it's easier to stumble upon it.

There's also, admittedly, a discussion to be had about how while the Furry Community has _expanded_, the rest of the internet has significantly _contracted_, which also leads to a change in perception. 



Judge Spear said:


> I don't think that's really furry exclusive or necessarily the worst shit ever though.


For a laugh, keep an eye out for memes that have been cross-posted so many times that you can see them return to the originating site a 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th time. You know the drill: Tumblr post screenshot in Twitter cropped for Instagram posted back on Tumblr only to be shared again on-

The internet churns quite rapidly and prolifically.

As for the _other_ Social Media stuff: I don't believe it was an attempt to silence anyone so much as comment on how... I mean, just look at this thread's history? Or other - similar - threads' history? The thread tends to go quiet for anywhere from a week to months, only for somebody to jump in and go "Gee Twitter sure sucks", and the pattern to rinse repeat. Sometimes it's even the same person coming back into a thread (again, weeks / months later) to reiterate "Twitter sure sucks". Which after a point leads one (as I presume Tyra was getting at) to wonder if the problem is not so much the site _itself_ as an inability to know one's limits, how to best curate their online experiences, and generally withdraw their self from a toxic loop.

A matter I'm admittedly _pretty terrible_ at myself (having taken something like four years to extract myself from a website I actively _knew_ was making me angry, and which _even now_ I'm considering going back to because of Discord NFT drama despite knowing that it'll probably just rip open old scars for the sake of socialization convenience), but none the less _very much_ worth bringing up as it's a _vital_ skill to have when navigating the modern internet.

There's reading between the line that could be had, but I don't believe Tyra is making any such effort / looking to a stir the pot instead of exactly the above. Some people _really_ need to realize that looking at certain sites without taking certain precautions is like grabbing a hot skillet bare-handed over and over again, and thus should either start wearing oven mitts or learn to stop using said skillet and adapt to something else.


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## BadRoy (Nov 19, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> It's amazing how many people bring up their hatred for twitter/drama but do their best to talk about it whenever they can. It's like the new 'im vegan'. XD
> 
> People wanting to be popfur is nothing new and it will never change. People having a like addiction and seeking validation will never change. As one generation moves up and matures, another generation takes over.


I know what you mean, but I quit Twitter months ago. The site was relevant to the conversation which is why I brought it up. 

At risk of going off-topic: You are wrong, 'like addiction' and validation seeking have changed. They've been distilled to the purest form in sites like Twitter which incentivise pithy soundbites, controversy, and memes without pesky meaningful discussion or a proper art gallery getting in the way. You make your clever post, you get your fix seeing the numbers go up, and you endlessly scroll the feed thinking up ways to get more numbers. I've seen it happen and I know you have too. 
To wrap it around to our topic this is why I think furries have left art sites as basically 'back-up galleries.' The fix is simply much _purer_ on Twitter.

Someone mentioned this earlier, but one thing that has definitely gotten better about the fandom is art quality. Even like 15 years ago I could probably count the number of really exceptional artists I knew of on two hands, but these days sheeeit. Digital art has only gotten better and there are artists with every kind of style you could think of knocking it out of the park. It's awesome.


----------



## Raever (Nov 19, 2021)

Attaman said:


> There's also, admittedly, a discussion to be had about how while the Furry Community has _expanded_, the rest of the internet has significantly _contracted_, which also leads to a change in perception.



Can you provide more context as far as the rest of the internet contracting?
I feel a bit slow and I'm not picking up what you're putting down, lol.


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## TyraWadman (Nov 19, 2021)

Judge Spear said:


> I assume this is a lot of words for "shut the fuck up".
> The topic is about whether or not someone believes the furry scene is getting worse. If someone believes Twitter is aiding in that degradation, accurate or not, I don't see the issue in discussing it? This isn't some random rant thread "I Hate Twitter". It's a relevant criticism.
> 
> The last few people to mention Twitter have stated they left it or minimized their usage. And you're not gonna just *forget* your reasons to cold turkey a place. I don't see your point.



Everyone else pretty much nailed it on the head. It's a reoccurring subject/complaint that doesn't necessarily always contribute to an actual discussion. People then go off topic about how they hate twitter instead of doing something about it and the cycle repeats.



BadRoy said:


> I know what you mean, but I quit Twitter months ago. The site was relevant to the conversation which is why I brought it up.
> 
> At risk of going off-topic: You are wrong, 'like addiction' and validation seeking have changed. They've been distilled to the purest form in sites like Twitter which incentivise pithy soundbites, controversy, and memes without pesky meaningful discussion or a proper art gallery getting in the way. You make your clever post, you get your fix seeing the numbers go up, and you endlessly scroll the feed thinking up ways to get more numbers. I've seen it happen and I know you have too.
> To wrap it around to our topic this is why I think furries have left art sites as basically 'back-up galleries.' The fix is simply much _purer_ on Twitter.



A few years ago it was Facebook and there have always been FA artists riding the trend on what's popular in hopes they'll achieve it some day. Even big-name companies ride trends! You always see people posting here on FAF asking why their career hasn't taken off, or how to generate more views. My point is that it's always been a part of human nature/history. What platform they decide to make their new home doesn't matter. There are always going to be people who are like this.

I think it's weird that just because you (universally, not you specifically) don't like most of the users that call themselves furry, it somehow means the fandom has gotten worse. Realistically you don't even like most of the non-furries you encounter in life so why would this be any different?

I think people need to stop lumping everything together and just focus on the things they enjoy. Last I recall, it was a hobby. If y'all wanna make it a lifestyle and treat it like a religion (aka gatekeep) and worry about what everyone else might be doing with the name, then you're responsible for managing your own stress! XD


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## Attaman (Nov 19, 2021)

Raever said:


> Can you provide more context as far as the rest of the internet contracting?
> I feel a bit slow and I'm not picking up what you're putting down, lol.


Sorry 'bout that.

I've touched on it before in this thread, but a big way in which the internet's contracted is a mix of things being put behind paywalls alongside certain websites becoming the proverbial ten-ton elephant in the room. Similar to how - to use an offline analogy - Walmart and Barnes & Noble smothered a number of local grocers / general good stores and book shops (respectively), places like Twitter and Facebook (alongside enormous messenger services like Discord and Telegram) have done a number on various blogs, forums, lesser chat services _and_ chat groups, and so-on. Furthermore, in addition to reducing the prevalence of such things, such sites have increasingly connected what remains. In a manner that the big sites can control, of course. This is to say that it's practically a given on many services these days to embed links to Twitter, Facebook, et al, but at the same time _they_ tend to take action to limit external links and where they appear utilizing their algorithm. So while you can inevitably point towards them from outside, you can rarely point outside from within (at least without having to rely on others to signal boost for you).


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 19, 2021)

Attaman said:


> Sorry 'bout that.
> 
> I've touched on it before in this thread, but a big way in which the internet's contracted is a mix of things being put behind paywalls alongside certain websites becoming the proverbial ten-ton elephant in the room. Similar to how - to use an offline analogy - Walmart and Barnes & Noble smothered a number of local grocers / general good stores and book shops (respectively), places like Twitter and Facebook (alongside enormous messenger services like Discord and Telegram) have done a number on various blogs, forums, lesser chat services _and_ chat groups, and so-on. Furthermore, in addition to reducing the prevalence of such things, such sites have increasingly connected what remains. In a manner that the big sites can control, of course. This is to say that it's practically a given on many services these days to embed links to Twitter, Facebook, et al, but at the same time _they_ tend to take action to limit external links and where they appear utilizing their algorithm. So while you can inevitably point towards them from outside, you can rarely point outside from within (at least without having to rely on others to signal boost for you).


I'd personally also say that the Internet has (since >20 years ago when I got intro-to-Internet type classes at school) also contracted in something similar to the sense that we talk about technology making the world smaller. Things are more interconnected, and it takes more effort to make your Internet presence a number of isolated islands rather than a contiguous whole. 

Though even now, I'm finding out about sites/services/etc I didn't yet know about with surprising frequency. For all that the Internet is "urbanizing," it's still possible to stumble upon that little isolated backwater village population-in-the-double-digits-at-best.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 19, 2021)

BadRoy said:


> At risk of going off-topic: You are wrong, 'like addiction' and validation seeking have changed. They've been distilled to the purest form in sites like Twitter which incentivise pithy soundbites, controversy, and memes without pesky meaningful discussion or a proper art gallery getting in the way. You make your clever post, you get your fix seeing the numbers go up, and you endlessly scroll the feed thinking up ways to get more numbers. I've seen it happen and I know you have too.
> To wrap it around to our topic this is why I think furries have left art sites as basically 'back-up galleries.' The fix is simply much _purer_ on Twitter.


A good deal of the 5 second soundbites, flash fire drama and so on is largely due to the 280 character limit I feel. You do get that on Facebook too, but to a much lesser extent, but I think a key part of why Twitter gets most of the ire is that by design, you're not supposed to have in depth conversations there. You can get a quick hot take out, but any sort of extended discussion attempted there get muddled with long unwieldy chain replies. A single paragraph, let alone multiple paragraphs is an eyesore to look at, because you're engaging in something Twitter isn't designed for.

Though in fairness, I think Twitter as a whole has changed more than just the fandom with how influential it has become. Regardless, the overall online culture has been altered due to Twitter's prominence regardless of whether you personally use it or not. I personally prefer the forums over Twitter, but I'm in the minority with that opinion. That said, if you like and use Twitter often and get a lot out of it, all the more power to you.

 My concerns are not so much the people but the platform's design overall. I'd argue that the incentivization of hot takes over long discussions has not been a positive change for multiple online communities, but that's just a theory. A fox theory. Thanks for reading.

Interestingly, I feel like with how many chat alternatives there are, Discord, Twitter, Forums, Telegram. The Fandom has sorta/kinda split off a bit in soft ways into very loose subgroups. I'm not entirely sure what to think of that, but it is interesting. It's different from the earlier days of the fandom when Furaffinity was the hub for a good majority of the Fandom's culture, but that does come with it's own issues.

One thing I do like is being able to get out from under the thumb of FA a bit, Discord helped quite a bit with that, I think. Smaller groups of furries making their own servers, and so on.
I've been left considering, that social media has given many people a voice. It's good that so many people can be heard now, but that also comes with the caveat of having literally everyone being able to voice themselves. That includes loud vociferous assholes. Bit of a double edged sword.

Anywho, just kind of thinking outloud, not trying to ruffle any feathers.


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 19, 2021)

You can tell it's gotten worse because the trolls aren't really trying anymore


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## Minerva_Minx (Nov 20, 2021)

If we're talking the fandom, again, my opinion is it's still the same and nothing has really changed but us older people are "those older furries".  Nothing wrong with that, just we have grown up and moved on.  Now, a new youngergroup has moved into the fandom andare experiencing exactly what we did in the 1990s to 2010s.  The 2010s to 2020 were kind of our nostalgia points as Blockbuster died off, Facebook became hoisehold over ,yspace amd IRC, Bitcoin and Tesla were starting and so on.  for90s kids, this is essentially their time to really push the fandom forward.

I think FA is our Blockbuster: it's here and still relevant, but it's not the center of activity it once was.  It COULD be, but it's not going to go that direction either, I don't think.

Discord, Twitter, and the others are going to supplant FA, but at the moment, nothing really centralizes the fandom.  Uncle Kage is generally a twitter character at the moment, likely due to tenure.  i haven't really paid enough attention to his relevance anymore and haven't seen anyone else able to pull the fandom together as he did in the early days of the internet, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Popularity will always take the cake, but it's fickle and it's just as easy to fall back into obscurity.  Example: Take individuals and their CRT/politics/flame of the week- it's a good example of attempting to stay relevant or being relevant.  During the political discussions days, it was effective, people followed, the flames were fanned and trolling times had by all.  Now, younger groups moved in, times shifted and now it is less so eliminating this podium and the once known people are lost and grasping.  So now what?  That's the question the new furs will need to answer.

No, the problems, hopes, dreams, and comraderie of the fandom is now more diluted and spread out.  There's sooo much variety and niche corners,  but again, no real central nexus.  that's why i think people go to it's good or bad or fray the topic: trying to find something to grasp on to.  This is simply a product of the internet expanding.  Ha, now people even know I'm a furry and thanks to the internet of thinhs, I have ample greek yogurt in my fridge.

Need to find the greek yogurt eating, Rainbow Dash loving, yuri romance, nerdy fur discord...


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