# Furry Cons & Coronavirus



## Simo (Mar 11, 2020)

As the situation with the Coronavirus unfolds, I wonder what impact it'll have on upcoming furry conventions, especially as air travel and the use of hotel and convention spaces could become increasingly impacted.

Any news or updates?

Do any upcoming cons have plans in place? (as in, rescheduling, cancelling, refunds, &c, in the vent they don't happen?) Depending on how this plays out, it could really put a damper on things.

One thing I've always loved at cons are all the hugs...and that'd be hard with all this talk of 'socially isolating' and staying 6 feet apart and all.

Curious what people's thoughts are since cons are such a big part of the furry community.

Edit: Here's a link to a page on health issues from The Motor City Fur Con: (April 3-5, greater Detroit Area)

Stay Healthy at MCFC | Motor City Furry Con - April 3-5, 2020 - Southfield, MI


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2020)

I was at NordicFuzzCon a couple of weeks ago, around the time the first reports of cases in the country started coming in (I don’t actively seek out news, so all I know is I saw a front page announcing the fifth case in Sweden some time the following week, if memory serves). Refunds or not, I’m not sure I would be going if the con was next week. Not only because of the con itself and all the international attendees (potential to bring things in from many places AND to bring things back home with them; neither is good), but also because I was taking public transit there and home every day. Health and safety are more important than the money spent on registration, in this case.

That said, I hope cons find solutions that don’t involve creating a human petri dish. If that’s offering voluntary refunds to spare attendees who can’t or won’t attend in the current situation (we do have a number of immunocompromized people in the fandom), moving the date, or canceling and refunding registrations, will have to be up to each con. Doing nothing at all would seem callous to me.


----------



## PercyD (Mar 11, 2020)

Con crud is a thing in general. You've got a lot of people who don't normally attend functions with weak immune systems.

It incubates into something nasty, gets passed around, and then it's a field day. I normally attend gatherings weekly, so I feel like my immunity is pretty strong. Plus, I live in _New York_, and I get my daily dosage of microbes from the buses and trains.

But it may be that people with weak immune systems, or people _around_ others with weak immune systems, may need to stay at home...


----------



## FrostHeart (Mar 11, 2020)




----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 12, 2020)

The other factor where it comes to con crud is that you generally have people from disparate geographic areas congregating in one place. Even without an explicitly weak(ened) immune system, we’ll have more trouble fighting off bugs from new places, partly because they’re less closely related to things we already have developed immunity to. Having a specific nasty virus going around just exacerbates the problem.

Plus air travel puts you in a tube full of other people, their germs, and recycled air, while giving your immune system a bit of a knock by the stress it puts on your body at the same time. (Particularly if you’re flying overseas or taking a red-eye, disrupting your sleep schedule.)


----------



## Arix (Mar 12, 2020)

I just got back from a con on Monday where no troubles have been had. That said, it was a relatively small one at about 150 people.


----------



## Godzilla (Mar 12, 2020)

I’m really worried about golden state fur con in California. LA has been in a state of emergency and everything is being shut down from schools to social events. 
This is the first fur con I’d be going to so I’ve been looking forward to it since last year when I just barely missed it. 
Unfortunately I will be missing out on those famous hugs even if the con isn’t cancelled.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237089392063172609They also have a no refund policy under any circumstances. :///


----------



## Guifrog (Mar 12, 2020)

People have been talking about the Coronavirus on the BFF Telegram group, but no plans of cancelling/rescheduling/refunds have taken place for now. I'm wondering how they'll treat the matter in the upcoming weeks, as the number of confirmed cases in Brazil has suddenly raised by 34 in one day - which makes for 69 now

The whole thing kind of reminds me of the Zika and Chikungunya outbreaks a few years ago, in my region. As in, it affected many people, including older friends of mine, who still feel a bit sore to this day, as the effects from the latter tend to last longer with age


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 12, 2020)

Godzilla said:


> They also have a no refund policy under any circumstances. :///


While I can understand their side in that they’re probably already out the money for things like the function space, asking people to stay home if sick while not offering any compensation is kinda... toothless? Like, at least offer people who cannot attend due to the virus a discount on registration next year or something. Maybe find a way to livestream panels for people with registration.

It’s good to see they’re taking _some_ measures, but I sadly don’t think that all people are going to follow their request that sick people stay home if those people are going to entirely going to miss out on a function they already paid to attend. People _should_ be self-isolating out of concern for others regardless, don’t get me wrong. People just... aren’t always that considerate. Softening the blow by meeting them partway may be what makes the difference for some of those people.


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 12, 2020)

I have actually never been to any type of convention before so I am not really affected by it. Hopefully the individuals running the convention are reasonable with cancellation and refunds.


Guifrog said:


> People have been talking about the Coronavirus on the BFF Telegram group, but no plans of cancelling/rescheduling/refunds have taken place for now. I'm wondering how they'll treat the matter in the upcoming weeks, as the number of confirmed cases in Brazil has suddenly raised by 34 in one day -* which makes for 69 now*
> 
> The whole thing kind of reminds me of the Zika and Chikungunya outbreaks a few years ago, in my region. As in, it affected many people, including older friends of mine, who still feel a bit sore to this day, as the effects from the latter tend to last longer with age


Oh my that number now...... (That is a shame that the infection number has risen to unfortunate and somewhat perverse number.)


----------



## Stray Cat Terry (Mar 12, 2020)

There's a third party religion called ShinCheonJi (NewUniverse) in Korea. And according to how they have effectively helped infecting most of the Koreans thus their infamous reputation rising, I worry that if anything Corona happens on FurCons....

Hope Furries never get into such a trouble and be viewed bad to general public...


----------



## PercyD (Mar 12, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> The other factor where it comes to con crud is that you generally have people from disparate geographic areas congregating in one place. Even without an explicitly weak(ened) immune system, we’ll have more trouble fighting off bugs from new places, partly because they’re less closely related to things we already have developed immunity to. Having a specific nasty virus going around just exacerbates the problem.
> 
> Plus air travel puts you in a tube full of other people, their germs, and recycled air, while giving your immune system a bit of a knock by the stress it puts on your body at the same time. (Particularly if you’re flying overseas or taking a red-eye, disrupting your sleep schedule.)


Actually, your immune system is always "on call" to say. Going on a plane isn't a stress, it's just more for it to deal with/increases your chance of getting something.

Stresses that reduce your immune system is more like,

missing a nights sleep to complete your suit or cosplay,
sudden time change due to jet lag
not eating a vegetable
dehydrating for a few hours due to travel


----------



## MaelstromEyre (Mar 12, 2020)

Cons, especially furry and comic-type cons, have a bad reputation for populations that aren't really great about personal hygiene in the first place.

I would hope that any Con organization that does intend to cancel its even in the next few months will make it known ASAP so people have a chance to cancel travel and hotel arrangements, and get as much of a refund as possible.

For any cons that choose to take place, please just use good sense about it if you go.


----------



## Lobie5 (Mar 12, 2020)

I'm sad. I was hopin' to be able to go to some kind of furry gathering this year, but my parents said we shouldn't even leave the house for a while. It's probably for the best, but oof.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 12, 2020)

Best way to avoid contracting a disease is to avoid situations it can spread.
It's an airborne respiratory disease, so the best way to avoid it is to stay away from as many breathing things as possible.

With that said, I hope it blows over by summer because I won a free super sponsor at IFC. If not, I'll have to ask them to extend it to next year.
Health is more important than a weekend of goofing off.


----------



## Simo (Mar 12, 2020)

Looks like it'll put a damper on any cons in the near future, with many states/cities poised to place bans on gatherings of over 250, 500, 1,000 and so on. But better safe than sorry.

What I wonder about is the overall solvency of furcons: I know it's probably tricky to pull one off, in terms of costs, and I wonder if some cons will take a hit, or even fold in subsequent years, as a result. As for refunds, and such: it'd be nice, but again, I wonder how possible it is for cons to do so? I'm not really well versed in the economics of hosting cons, but I imagine it's tricky.

I haven't seen any outright cancellations yet, but I'll post any I find. a

As for upcoming cons I wonder about:

-Motor City Fur Con (April 3-5)
-Golden State Fur Con (April 3-6)
-AntrOhio (May 28-31)
-BLFC, Reno (April 30-May 3)
...and, of course, AC in the summer.

Probably more I've missed, but I imagine things are gonna be slow on the con circuit, in the immediate future.

...and if people are out of work, leading up to them, they may have to cancel, just out of not having enough cash.

Also, on a somewhat funny note, at least to picture: lots of hand-sanitizer being mentioned, on the con sites...but what about fursuit paw-sanitizer? : P I'd imagine fursuits might be kinda like sponges, for a virus. Though, I have noted people have various sprays to disinfect them, even in times without such pandemics...


----------



## Keefur (Mar 12, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> While I can understand their side in that they’re probably already out the money for things like the function space, asking people to stay home if sick while not offering any compensation is kinda... toothless?



A lot is going to depend on the leadership of the cons.  Virtually all hotel contracts with cons have a thing called "an act of God" clause.  Normally this is to protect the hotel in case of things like floods, tornadoes, etc.  I can see cons invoking this clause to get refunds from hotels, which, should trickle down to the attendees.


----------



## Keefur (Mar 12, 2020)

Simo said:


> Looks like it'll put a damper on any cons in the near future, with many states/cities poised to place bans on gatherings of over 250, 500, 1,000 and so on. But better safe than sorry.
> 
> What I wonder about is the overall solvency of furcons: I know it's probably tricky to pull one off, in terms of costs, and I wonder if some cons will take a hit, or even fold in subsequent years, as a result. As for refunds, and such: it'd be nice, but again, I wonder how possible it is for cons to do so? I'm not really well versed in the economics of hosting cons, but I imagine it's tricky.
> 
> ...


Yeah... you missed a really big one... Furry Weekend Atlanta May 7th-11th.


----------



## Simo (Mar 12, 2020)

Keefur said:


> A lot is going to depend on the leadership of the cons.  Virtually all hotel contracts with cons have a thing called "an act of God" clause.  Normally this is to protect the hotel in case of things like floods, tornadoes, etc.  I can see cons invoking this clause to get refunds from hotels, which, should trickle down to the attendees.



That's a good point; I think a lot of this might boil down to who is left holding the bag, in terms of any financial losses, and it could end up being a mixture, of hotels/convention centers, cons themselves, and con attendees. No doubt the fandom will survive this rough patch, and cons will continue to grow and expand in size and number, but I think we'll see a bit of a bump in the road.

Oh, and yep, FWA, is one more, coming up soon.

If domestic flights become restricted, that'll put another big dent in things; seeing MLB and other sports suspend things makes me think that huggy 'ol fur cons might be hit hard, but we'll see.


----------



## brian577 (Mar 13, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> Best way to avoid contracting a disease is to avoid situations it can spread.
> It's an airborne respiratory disease, so the best way to avoid it is to stay away from as many breathing things as possible.
> 
> With that said, I hope it blows over by summer because I won a free super sponsor at IFC. If not, I'll have to ask them to extend it to next year.
> *Health is more important than a weekend of goofing off.*



What about your mental health?  

Regardless I wonder if this bug is going to kill the "con boom" we've been experiencing.  Seems like every year we have a new con, by next year will only a few be left?


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 13, 2020)

brian577 said:


> What about your mental health?
> 
> Regardless I wonder if this bug is going to kill the "con boom" we've been experiencing.  Seems like every year we have a new con, by next year will only a few be left?


If you're worried that missing a convention or two is going to seriously damage your mental health, you've got a lot more issues than the virus to contend with.


----------



## brian577 (Mar 13, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> If you're worried that missing a convention or two is going to seriously damage your mental health, you've got a lot more issues than the virus to contend with.



Some people don't do well without psychical  human interaction, right now that doesn't seem to be encouraged.  That's all I'm saying.  Not everyone stuck in a quarantine zone is going to treat it like a god damn vacation.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 13, 2020)

PercyD said:


> Actually, your immune system is always "on call" to say. Going on a plane isn't a stress, it's just more for it to deal with/increases your chance of getting something.
> 
> Stresses that reduce your immune system is more like,
> 
> ...


That was what I was trying to communicate, yes. It’s not just the extra work coming from the germs but also the auxiliary stress from the whole travel situation.


----------



## PercyD (Mar 13, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> That was what I was trying to communicate, yes. It’s not just the extra work coming from the germs but also the auxiliary stress from the whole travel situation.


Ah, but I was saying having "extra germs" isn't a stressor. Your body is constantly fending off germs. 
What I was getting at was that certain behaviors reduce your immune system's ability to do it's job.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 13, 2020)

So.
The health and safety board in my county has issued a ban on gatherings of groups of 250 or more people.
I'd imagine other locations are going to follow suit in a similar fashion.
wkow.com: Public Health Madison and Dane County bans large gatherings


----------



## Simo (Mar 13, 2020)

No gatherings of over 250 here in Michigan until April 5th; meaning MCFC has been postponed. Refunds are being issued, or people can stay registered for the to be determined future date.


----------



## Godzilla (Mar 13, 2020)

Golden State Fur Con postponed. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238649265192202240


----------



## Simo (Mar 14, 2020)

Well, two cons postponed, so far:

-Motor City Fur Con
-Golden State Fur Con

...I imagine more will follow; it does seem like the prudent thing to do.


----------



## RailRide (Mar 15, 2020)

Toronto's big shindig, Furnal Equinox:

Furnal Equinox 2020: Official Cancellation Of Event – Furnal Equinox

I was going to this one. First hint of trouble was this morning's email from Amtrak telling both trains I was taking to/from the event being canceled "due to service disruption". While weighing my options (Greyhound looked increasingly unlikely the more I thought about it), then a few hours later I heard of the above in a stream, checking FE's Twitter feed confirmed it. They made the decision the day after I last looked there.

I think I'm going to donate my registration fee rather than have it refunded (I won't miss the reg fee, and I do want to do what I can to ensure the event is able to return when this blows over). The hotel and transportation will be handled differently.

Addendum: Vouchered my Amtrak tickets for future travel, and found that the FE hotel auto-canceled the associated reservations when the con pulled the plug. And just now found out about FWA.

---PCJ


----------



## Simo (Mar 17, 2020)

Wow, this even made the New York Post. I have to admit, I did kinda like the first line of the brief article :

"An annual Atlanta gathering of people dressed in furry suits that was scheduled for May has been canceled..."

https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/atlanta-furry-convention-canceled-due-to-coronavirus/

It'll be curious, to see how the various cons are rescheduled, given the way the initial scheduling tries to make them so they don't overlap with each other too much; there might be a lot of fur-cons in rapid succession/at the same time, once this clears up.


----------



## AdenineWolf (Mar 17, 2020)

I wouldn't be surprised if a whole bunch of cons were shutting down because of this whole stupid 'pandemic' caused by a virus less deadly than the Flu. 
I'm not even worried, I'm just annoyed of how much unnecessary hysteria is being caused by this bullshit.  
This virus is only killing old people and people with weak immune systems or with other health complications. 
It's the fucking media that's making this all like a big deal, cuz this is all they get to talk about. 
I don't think we need to shut down many services in our country and other nations because of this stupid fucking virus. 
Sure, it's pretty infectious but, it's not as deadly as Ebola or SARS.
If it were to be Ebola, then i'd be shitting my pants and i'd see a reason this would all be happening, but it ain't.
I don't understand people nowadays. The Flu and the HIV virus infects and kills more people than this stupid pathogen every fucking year. 
We don't get scared as much about those huh? I really just don't understand the fear behind it. 
I'm getting real pissed about our society and the prissy little pricks of leaders who take charge of our world and how they're not doing their jobs properly. 
We may need to start a revolt, make massive improvements to our old rusty dying system, because this is getting to that point where everyone's freaking out 
Over a virus that won't even kill the average healthy person like it's the end of days.


----------



## RailRide (Mar 17, 2020)

Simo said:


> It'll be curious, to see how the various cons are rescheduled, given the way the initial scheduling tries to make them so they don't overlap with each other too much; there might be a lot of fur-cons in rapid succession/at the same time, once this clears up.



My guess is most of them will simply skip this year and resume their scheduled intervals the following year. I do have a room reservation for Anthrocon (and will likely put in for Artist's Alley), but other arrangements/cons are in a holding pattern till I see how things shake out.

---PCJ


----------



## Kumali (Mar 19, 2020)

AdenineWolf said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a whole bunch of cons were shutting down because of this whole stupid 'pandemic' caused by a virus less deadly than the Flu.
> I'm not even worried, I'm just annoyed of how much unnecessary hysteria is being caused by this bullshit.
> This virus is only killing old people and people with weak immune systems or with other health complications.
> It's the fucking media that's making this all like a big deal, cuz this is all they get to talk about.
> ...



www.dailykos.com: MSNBC: Over 8,900 cases , DOUBLING every 3 days and 153 deaths

threadreaderapp.com: Thread by @JasonYanowitz: If you'e still hanging with friends, going to restaurants/bars, and acting like this isn't a big deal, get your shit together. The following…


----------



## Kumali (Mar 19, 2020)

AdenineWolf said:


> This virus is only killing old people and people with weak immune systems or with other health complications.
> ...everyone's freaking out
> Over a virus that won't even kill the average healthy person like it's the end of days.



www.msn.com: Younger Adults Comprise Big Portion of Coronavirus Hospitalizations in U.S.

"Of the 508 patients known to have been hospitalized, 38 percent were notably younger — between 20 and 54. And nearly half of the 121 patients who were admitted to intensive care units were adults under 65, the C.D.C. reported.

“'I think everyone should be paying attention to this,' said Stephen S. Morse, a professor of epidemiology at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health. 'It’s not just going to be the elderly. There will be people age 20 and up. They do have to be careful, even if they think that they’re young and healthy.'

"The findings served to underscore an appeal issued Wednesday at a White House briefing by Dr. Deborah Birx, a physician and State Department official who is a leader of the administration’s coronavirus task force. Citing similar reports of young adults in Italy and in France being hospitalized and needing intensive care, Dr. Birx implored the millennial generation to stop socializing in groups and to take care to protect themselves and others."


----------



## VX666 (Mar 20, 2020)

Well the Coronavirus family all have about the same mild to some being severe in symptoms. 19 isnt really that much more severe or contagious

There are 200 viruses that come and go each season, some mutate each season, COVID-19 really isnt that special and it's not been that deadly compared to other viruses when controlled  for time and spread.

It's really just hysteria


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 20, 2020)

VX666 said:


> when controlled  for time and spread.
> 
> It's really just hysteria



I'd advise a quick look at italy when it comes to uncontrolled spread.

Covid 19 is not to be trifled with.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 20, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I'd advise a quick look at italy when it comes to uncontrolled spread.
> 
> Covid 19 is not to be trifled with.



Well to put into perspective, even though we have been hit hard by the spread of COVID-19,  we dont have any confirmed deaths of anyone being infected and dying soley because of COVID-19 as the primary initiation and cause of death.

A lot of people who are already I'll did die and test positive for covid 19, but they tested positive for 200+ pathogens as well.

Again. Even though its spread quickly, it's actually only one of 200 other viruses that are causing problems


----------



## Kumali (Mar 20, 2020)

VX666 said:


> Well to put into perspective, even though we have been hit hard by the spread of COVID-19,  we dont have any confirmed deaths of anyone being infected and dying soley because of COVID-19 as the primary initiation and cause of death.



See the links in posts #34 and 35.

Also see:

coronavirus.jhu.edu: Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

https://nssac.bii.virginia.edu/covid-19/dashboard/


----------



## VX666 (Mar 20, 2020)

Kumali said:


> See the links in posts #34 and 35.
> 
> Also see:
> 
> ...




I was referring to deaths directly linked to COVID-19 as the sole cause, not just general deaths.

    "Well to put into perspective, even though we have been hit hard by the spread of COVID-19, *we dont have any confirmed deaths of anyone being infected and dying soley because of COVID-19 as the primary initiation and cause of death*."

I think what you are confusing are general deaths vs deaths with COVID-19 as the primary cause without pre existing conditions.

A lot of doctors will give opinions about risks but I'm just stating facts here.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 21, 2020)

VX666 said:


> I was referring to deaths directly linked to COVID-19 as the sole cause, not just general deaths.
> 
> "Well to put into perspective, even though we have been hit hard by the spread of COVID-19, *we dont have any confirmed deaths of anyone being infected and dying soley because of COVID-19 as the primary initiation and cause of death*."
> 
> ...



Oh dear. 

Of course we do. Covid 19 causes pneumonia in cases and this kills you if your heart and your lung can't take the strain anymore.*


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

VX666 said:


> Well to put into perspective, even though we have been hit hard by the spread of COVID-19,  we dont have any confirmed deaths of anyone being infected and dying soley because of COVID-19 as the primary initiation and cause of death.
> 
> A lot of people who are already I'll did die and test positive for covid 19, but they tested positive for 200+ pathogens as well.
> 
> Again. Even though its spread quickly, it's actually only one of 200 other viruses that are causing problems






VX666 said:


> I was referring to deaths directly linked to COVID-19 as the sole cause, not just general deaths.
> 
> "Well to put into perspective, even though we have been hit hard by the spread of COVID-19, *we dont have any confirmed deaths of anyone being infected and dying soley because of COVID-19 as the primary initiation and cause of death*."
> 
> ...




So the 11,570 worldwide COVID-19 deaths reported by JHU as of Saturday morning (261 in the US) were all patients with pre-existing conditions? Sources please.





VX666 said:


> Well the Coronavirus family all have about the same mild to some being severe in symptoms. 19 isnt really that much more severe or contagious
> 
> There are 200 viruses that come and go each season, some mutate each season, COVID-19 really isnt that special and it's not been that deadly compared to other viruses when controlled  for time and spread.
> 
> It's really just hysteria




From Dr. Aaron E. Carroll, Professor of pediatrics at Indiana University School of Medicine, and Dr. Ashish Jha, Professor of Global Health at Harvard University:


www.theatlantic.com: This Is How We Can Beat the Coronavirus


Excerpt, with emphasis added: “*The last time we faced a pandemic with this level of infectivity, that was this dangerous, for which we had no therapy or vaccine, was 100 years ago, and it led to 50 million deaths.* The coronavirus pandemic isn’t unprecedented, but it’s not anything almost anyone alive has experienced before. We, are, however, much more knowledgeable, much more coordinated, and much more capable today.


“Some Americans are in denial, and others are feeling despair. Both sentiments are understandable. We all have a choice to make. We can look at the coming fire and let it burn. We can hunker down, and hope to wait it out—or we can work together to get through it with as little damage as possible. This country has faced massive threats before and risen to the challenge; we can do it again. We just need to decide to make it happen.”


Also see www.forbes.com: Why 'Exponential Growth' Is So Scary For The COVID-19 Coronavirus


Excerpt, with emphasis added: “For the time being, it appears that the COVID-19 infection is still growing exponentially in many countries across the world, including the United States. *The doubling time has been increased to six days or more in South Korea and Iran, but remains between 2 and 4 days in countries like Sweden, France, Italy, Australia, Spain, the Netherlands, and the United States. And most frighteningly, if we continue on our present exponential trends, we will reach a total of over 1 million infected by early April in a large number of countries.*


“It doesn't have to be this way, however. If we can dramatically reduce the rate of infection now, at this critical time (over the next 2-to-4 weeks), we could see the number of newly infected individuals drop precipitously, and slow the spread of this pandemic. The key is putting the brakes on the exponential growth phase, and to take these disease-reducing actions seriously. Unless we all take part, however, things will get a lot worse before they get better.”


----------



## VX666 (Mar 21, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Of course we do. Covid 19 causes pneumonia in cases and this kills you if your heart and your lung can't take the strain anymore.*



That may be theory but I'm talking about actual verifiable cases where COVID-19 was the primary infection.

There are 200 other types of viri that do that and have resulted in far more deaths.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 21, 2020)

Kumali said:


> So the 11,570 worldwide COVID-19 deaths reported by JHU as of Saturday morning (261 in the US) were all patients with pre-existing conditions? Sources please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You tell me, a lot of people died, but was COVID-19 the primary cause?

The rate of spread is fast but not unlike the 200 other viruses going around this season. COVID-19 is mild to severe, but not the most dangerous, why single 1 of 200 species of viri going about? What's the justification?

A lot of the reported deaths are those who tested positive for COVID-19 but also tested positive for dozens of other viri. There is no conclusion COVID-19 was the primary cause


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 21, 2020)

@VX666 

Even politicians who initially denied that this virus represented a danger have been forced to advise unprecedented policies of social isolation.
This isn't simply a hysteria; it's a real problem and we all have to be in this together to protect the vulnerable people around us from infection. 
We don't want to end up in the same situation as the Lombardians, with hospital systems over-whelmed, especially since this will mean people start dying from other preventable conditions we could have treated if there were enough hospital beds. 

The one thing I've learnt from this pandemic so far is just how many people I know who take immunosuppressant drugs, for example.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 21, 2020)

VX666 said:


> That may be theory but I'm talking about actual verifiable cases where COVID-19 was the primary infection.
> 
> There are 200 other types of viri that do that and have resulted in far more deaths.


It's a different kind of pneumonia. Generally pneumonia causes people to cough up clear to white/off-white fluid but with Coronavirus, they're coughing up pink.

How many other widespread viruses do we know of where people are suffocating on their own blood?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 21, 2020)

VX666 said:


> You tell me, a lot of people died, but was COVID-19 the primary cause?
> 
> The rate of spread is fast but not unlike the 200 other viruses going around this season. COVID-19 is mild to severe, but not the most dangerous, why single 1 of 200 species of viri going about? What's the justification?
> 
> A lot of the reported deaths are those who tested positive for COVID-19 but also tested positive for dozens of other viri. There is no conclusion COVID-19 was the primary cause



With respect, you're talking bullshit. Please inform yourself, this is an important topic.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

VX666 said:


> You tell me, a lot of people died, but was COVID-19 the primary cause?
> 
> The rate of spread is fast but not unlike the 200 other viruses going around this season. COVID-19 is mild to severe, but not the most dangerous, why single 1 of 200 species of viri going about? What's the justification?
> 
> A lot of the reported deaths are those who tested positive for COVID-19 but also tested positive for dozens of other viri. There is no conclusion COVID-19 was the primary cause



No, you tell me. “A lot” = how many? What percentage? And you know this how? Sources please.

Until you can back up what you’re saying, I’m inclined to listen to credentialed medical professionals when they’re as unanimous as they are on this. Especially since they’re the ones dealing with it in the real world.

Again, Dr. Aaron E. Carroll of Indiana University School of Medicine and Dr. Ashish Jha of Harvard University: *“The last time we faced a pandemic with this level of infectivity, that was this dangerous, for which we had no therapy or vaccine, was 100 years ago, and it led to 50 million deaths. The coronavirus pandemic isn’t unprecedented, but it’s not anything almost anyone alive has experienced before. We, are, however, much more knowledgeable, much more coordinated, and much more capable today.

“Some Americans are in denial, and others are feeling despair. Both sentiments are understandable. We all have a choice to make. We can look at the coming fire and let it burn. We can hunker down, and hope to wait it out—or we can work together to get through it with as little damage as possible.”*

And we should all accept your denial of the pandemic’s severity, contradicting these doctors and every global health organization I’ve seen reports from, because…? Your credentials and experience are…?


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

Here's another one: www.theguardian.com: I'm an ER doctor. Please take coronavirus seriously | Clayton Dalton

Care to counter that, @VX666 ?


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

And more info:


----------



## Tenné (Mar 21, 2020)

Whenever I go on FAF as of late I'm disappointed in some people's cavalier attitude to these types of things. Furry drama is dumb, and while I get annoyed and strongly disagree, this is on a whole other level.

Thinking that covid-19 is nothing much in January of this year is understandable. Believing it to be just another seasonal flu is beyond my comprehension at this point. Currently most of countries are on lockdown. Do you think you're better informed than health professionals and governments? Do you know how incredibly expensive this is, yet governments have decided that effectively destroying their way of life is better than letting this virus roam free.

I'm disappointed that this is even up for debate.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

www.worldometers.info: Coronavirus Update (Live): 303,433 Cases and 12,964 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

sciencebasedmedicine.org: COVID-19 update: What you need to know now that it’s officially a pandemic

Excerpt, with emphasis added: "Roughly 20% of those with COVID-19 will develop disease severe enough to require hospitalization, with roughly 5-6% requiring mechanical ventilation. *Given those numbers, it wouldn’t take very many cases relative to the total population to completely overwhelm our medical system. This has already happened in Italy, *as I mentioned early on, to the point where Italian doctors have little choice but to institute wartime-like triage, and, again, Lombardy is a wealthy region with excellent medical facilities. It’s no wonder that, in the light of what we’re seeing in other parts of the world, doctors and public health officials are becoming very alarmed, with good reason."


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

www.kevinmd.com: A COVID-19 coronavirus update from concerned physicians


Excerpts, with emphases added:


“The COVID-19 threat is real, and rapidly getting worse. Many of you are very nervous; some are unsure of the validity of the information you are reading. As physician leaders, we felt it was important to craft a resource you can rely on as being scientifically accurate and one which contains as much actionable information and guidance as possible.


“Accurate, actionable information during an epidemic can save lives. Physicians are on the front line of this epidemic. Not only are we treating the sick, but we are also cringing at the misinformation spread through both traditional broadcast and social media. Evidence matters. Unfortunately, evidence is often slow, methodical, and boring and has a tough time against clicky headlines and exaggeration. We believe that an accurate representation of the current COVID-19 pandemic followed by a set of actionable steps you, your loved ones, politicians, and local officials can utilize is of paramount importance and ultimately could save tens of thousands of lives.


“COVID-19 has been described by some as ‘just a cold,’ or just like the common flu. COVID-19 is not a common flu. COVID-19 is an order of magnitude worse than the flu. *The fatality rate is approximately ten times worse than the flu.* […]


“The health care system in the USA is not ready to handle tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people over a short time frame. In Italy, the health care system buckled under the strain, and the health care teams are now forced to make horrible life and death decisions. […]


“Exponential math is very hard to grasp.  Every person with the COVID-19 virus infects approximately two people. Some less, some more. The infection rate doubles every six days.  That means that if 50,000 people have the virus today, then in 6 days, 100,000 people will have it. In another 12 days it’s 400,000 and less than two weeks later it’s over a million people.  We have 330 million people in the US. The experts expect that 40-70% of people will be infected. Exponential growth does not take that long to get to those scary high numbers. *Every six days we delay, the number of infections double.*


“The effectiveness of our health care system to deal with a sudden tsunami of respiratory illness is what is at risk. *If our health care system buckles under the strain of tens of thousands of patients, then we could be looking at a catastrophe.* […]


“If our health care system fails, then we will all suffer. If the hospital is choked with COVID-19 patients, people with appendicitis, heart attacks, broken ankles, and so on will not be able to be treated. This is the picture of systemic risk. Everyone is at risk if there is a systemic failure of our health care system, not just those with COVID-19.


“The challenge is this: By following the appropriate recommended social isolation measures, you will be saving lives of not just those at increased risk who are infected, but also those who need other critical health care services, including potentially yourself. You will be saving the lives of people you will never meet.


“Who should follow our suggested social isolation measures?  EVERYONE.  If you do not need to go out for a mission-critical purpose, do not.  Again, you WILL be saving the lives of at-risk members of your own family, as well as people you will never have the pleasure of meeting.


“Containment of COVID-19 is no longer possible. The virus is already in the country and is currently spreading. We need to slow the spread. Mitigation is the best current strategy. It involves strict social isolation. If 50% of the U.S. population becomes infected, 5% of infected people will need a ventilator in an ICU, and if we have only a limited number of ventilators available in the country, you can quickly see the issue at hand.


“This is an extremely time-sensitive and serious issue that needs to be addressed now. We can’t simply manufacture the number of ventilators necessary. We need to slow the spread and decrease the overall rate at which people will be coming to the hospital.


“We use the description: We must flatten the curve. That means that we need to slow the rate of infection so that the number of people who need hospital services remains in the range that our health care system can supply. In mitigation, we are no longer trying to contain the virus; we are merely trying to slow the rate of infection to keep the health care system from collapsing.


*“All of you can save lives starting now. *


*“The actions you take starting today will save the lives of people you will never meet.”*


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

www.vox.com: 11 coronavirus charts everyone should see


----------



## Kumali (Mar 21, 2020)

Coronavirus UK: Gym-goer, 39, warns public from intensive care | Daily Mail Online

*'Don't take any chances, just look at me': Fit-and-healthy gym-goer, 39, struggles to breathe from coronavirus as she gives stark warning from her intensive care hospital bed*

Excerpts: “A fit-and-healthy mother who filmed herself struggling to breathe as she warned of the dangers of coronavirus has said it felt like having 'glass in her lungs'.

“Tara Jane Langston, 39, told of how every breath is a ‘battle’ but she is now out of intensive care and recovering well.

“The mother-of-two was rushed to hospital by ambulance last Friday and eventually diagnosed with Covid-19 on Sunday. […]

“Gasping for breath and coughing, she made the harrowing video the following day and sent it as a Whatsapp message to her colleagues warning them to take care. […]

“She told MailOnline this evening: 'It’s like having glass in your lungs, it’s hard to explain, but every breath is a battle.

“‘It’s absolutely horrible and I wouldn’t want to go through anything like this ever again. I’d been ill for about five days before I was taken to hospital in an ambulance. […]

“‘Fortunately I was kept awake but needed six litres of oxygen. Now that I’m improving I’m on one litre.’ 

“Ms Langston is now recovering from her ordeal after catching the virus, which has infected 2,695 people and killed 137 in Britain alone. […]

“‘I just worry that when this virus starts getting worse they’re going to be swamped.’ […]

“She said that becoming infected had changed her viewpoint, explaining: ‘People have to realise that they need to self-isolate, it’s the only way. Believe me.

“‘I can understand their mind-set because I had that attitude before of "it’s a load of nonsense, it’s just being all hyped up" before I got this– I wasn’t one to buy into all the hysteria. But then I got the coronavirus and I never again want to experience anything like it because it was a deeply unpleasant experience.

“‘That’s why I filmed myself in the ICU and sent it to my work mates because they were supposed to be all meeting up for a training event and I wanted to tell them not to go as it wasn’t worth the risk. They’d be better off staying at home self-isolating.

“‘Whatever restrictions the government has now been put in place should have been done two weeks ago I believe. My story should be a warning to others – you need to take this seriously.’”


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> It's a different kind of pneumonia. Generally pneumonia causes people to cough up clear to white/off-white fluid but with Coronavirus, they're coughing up pink.
> 
> How many other widespread viruses do we know of where people are suffocating on their own blood?



A lot of infections have caughing blood as a symptom


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> With respect, you're talking bullshit. Please inform yourself, this is an important topic.




I only posted facts and asked legit questions, making snarky comments and calling it "bullshit" isnt helpful

I'm trying to get a perspective of this pathogen. The numbers and facts dont add up high enough to justify shutting down the world


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Kumali said:


> Coronavirus UK: Gym-goer, 39, warns public from intensive care | Daily Mail Online
> 
> *'Don't take any chances, just look at me': Fit-and-healthy gym-goer, 39, struggles to breathe from coronavirus as she gives stark warning from her intensive care hospital bed*
> 
> ...



Are there any confirmations of this incident?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

Tenné said:


> Whenever I go on FAF as of late I'm disappointed in some people's cavalier attitude to these types of things. Furry drama is dumb, and while I get annoyed and strongly disagree, this is on a whole other level.
> 
> Thinking that covid-19 is nothing much in January of this year is understandable. Believing it to be just another seasonal flu is beyond my comprehension at this point. Currently most of countries are on lockdown. Do you think you're better informed than health professionals and governments? Do you know how incredibly expensive this is, yet governments have decided that effectively destroying their way of life is better than letting this virus roam free.
> 
> I'm disappointed that this is even up for debate.



I completely, absolutely agree.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> I only posted facts and asked legit questions, making snarky comments and calling it "bullshit" isnt helpful
> 
> I'm trying to get a perspective of this pathogen. The numbers and facts dont add up high enough to justify shutting down the world



All right, I'll humour you. We're assuming that 20% of the corona cases are severe and need respiratory aid and intensive care (the RKI said this). 70% of the population will fall sick, which means, combined in the US and the EU we'd be looking at 560 million sick, and 112 million so severely ill that they need intensive care. This massively exceeds the number of hospital beds we have, so all those people will die.

Even if my numbers are off the mark by 50%, it's still 55 million potentially dead.

WWII had 60 million casualties.

Perhaps now you see the point. This really isn't the time to spread misinformation.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

> redacted by staff



Your first argument is a blatant lie. Go look at the situation in italy, or read or talk to any medical man. I can link you an interview with one of germany's prime virologists, Mr. Drosten, it's even in english.

For your second argument I'd like to see a source, not because I don't believe it, mind you, but because I'd like to know where you take this certainity.

The third point is quite immaterial for this discussion - population growth has nothing to do with the corona virus


----------



## Raever (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> Your first argument is a blatant lie. Go look at the situation in italy, or read or talk to any medical man. I can link you an interview with one of germany's prime virologists, Mr. Drosten, it's even in english.
> 
> For your second argument I'd like to see a source, not because I don't believe it, mind you, but because I'd like to know where you take this certainity.
> 
> The third point is quite immaterial for this discussion - population growth has nothing to do with the corona virus



The Yeen said pretty much everything I wanted to say AND added sources. So, guess all I want to personally add is some friendly reminders:

1. Carona is not nearly as bad as The Black Plague (at least not yet), people need to stop over reacting to it

2. Carona IS worse than the average flu, as we've learned and seen, so let's stop under-reacting to it as well

_(Example: Around 56,000 people die of the flu globally each year according to a quick google search, but Carona has already hit a global 21,000 reported death cases in less than three months. Again, according to a quick Google search. If this is true and Carona becomes as "normal" as the flu is for us, we may have 126,000 people - minimum - dropping per year from it. That's scary stuff!)_

Granted, the above is a very loose estimation based on very loose numbers taken from a thirty second search on google. It doesn't account for age, conditions, and other circumstances that may cause death.

So take all of that with a grain of salt.

My point: Stay logical, do your research, follow far more than one news source because they're all biased to some degree, and most of all stay hygienic. We don't need Furs dropping due to a lack of basic health standards.

Edit: Also to those of you hoarding all of the soap, rubbing alcohol, masks, gloves, and toilet paper...fuck you, lol


----------



## Kumali (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> Are there any confirmations of this incident?



The video is linked in the article. Unless you think she's acting.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 22, 2020)

Tenné said:


> Whenever I go on FAF as of late I'm disappointed in some people's cavalier attitude to these types of things. Furry drama is dumb, and while I get annoyed and strongly disagree, this is on a whole other level.
> 
> Thinking that covid-19 is nothing much in January of this year is understandable. Believing it to be just another seasonal flu is beyond my comprehension at this point. Currently most of countries are on lockdown. Do you think you're better informed than health professionals and governments? Do you know how incredibly expensive this is, yet governments have decided that effectively destroying their way of life is better than letting this virus roam free.
> 
> I'm disappointed that this is even up for debate.



I mean, I would have thought that the video footage of trucks carrying bodies out of towns in Lombardy to emergency crematoria would have been enough to persuade people that Covid-19 isn't just a 'flu'.



> Redacted by staff


----------



## Kumali (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> I only posted facts and asked legit questions, making snarky comments and calling it "bullshit" isnt helpful
> 
> I'm trying to get a perspective of this pathogen. The numbers and facts dont add up high enough to justify shutting down the world




You’re not even reading the information I’ve posted links to, are you.


Once again:


Howard J. Luks, M.D., Joel Topf, M.D., Ethan J. Weiss, M.D., Carrie Diulus, M.D., Nancy Yen Shipley, M.D., and Eric Levi, M.D.:


“The fatality rate is approximately ten times worse than the flu. […]


“The health care system in the USA is not ready to handle tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people over a short time frame. In Italy, the health care system buckled under the strain, and the health care teams are now forced to make horrible life and death decisions. […]


“Exponential math is very hard to grasp. Every person with the COVID-19 virus infects approximately two people. Some less, some more. The infection rate doubles every six days. That means that if 50,000 people have the virus today, then in 6 days, 100,000 people will have it. In another 12 days it’s 400,000 and less than two weeks later it’s over a million people. We have 330 million people in the US. The experts expect that 40-70% of people will be infected. Exponential growth does not take that long to get to those scary high numbers. Every six days we delay, the number of infections double.


“The effectiveness of our health care system to deal with a sudden tsunami of respiratory illness is what is at risk. If our health care system buckles under the strain of tens of thousands of patients, then we could be looking at a catastrophe.”


From www.kevinmd.com: A COVID-19 coronavirus update from concerned physicians


~


David H. Gorski, M.D., Ph.D.:


"Roughly 20% of those with COVID-19 will develop disease severe enough to require hospitalization, with roughly 5-6% requiring mechanical ventilation. Given those numbers, it wouldn’t take very many cases relative to the total population to completely overwhelm our medical system. This has already happened in Italy.”


From sciencebasedmedicine.org: COVID-19 update: What you need to know now that it’s officially a pandemic


~


Clayton Dalton, M.D., emergency medicine resident physician at Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston:


“Why is it so difficult for us to appreciate the scale of what an unchecked global pandemic could do? The answer may have something to do with how difficult it is to intuitively understand abstract concepts like exponential growth.


“This difficulty has been appreciated since at least 1256, when an Islamic scholar recorded what is known as the wheat and chessboard problem. The problem appears in a parable about the inventor of chess, whose king demands to purchase the new game. The inventor names his price, to be paid in wheat. He suggested that one grain of wheat should be placed on the first square of the chessboard, two grains on the second, and so on, with the sum doubling in this way over 64 squares. The king thinks this a great bargain, and is stunned when his treasurer informs him that the sum would bankrupt the kingdom. The total number of grains comes to 18,446,744,073,709,551,615.


“Here’s another example. If you took 30 steps from your front door, with each step twice as large as the last, how far could you get? The answer might surprise you – it’s 26 times the Earth’s circumference. Our inability to appreciate how extraordinarily powerful exponential growth can be has concrete consequences. It’s a major reason why people don’t take their retirement accounts seriously enough, for one. It’s also why people seem to be struggling to understand why every single day matters enormously in limiting the spread of the coronavirus, which follows an exponential growth pattern.


“We are already in the midst of exponential growth in the coronavirus outbreak, with every indicator suggesting that the virus is now spreading unchecked within communities across the country.


“The good news, though, is that if we act today instead of tomorrow we can prevent a huge number of infections, and a lot of deaths. Time is of the absolute essence here, and it’s individual choices that matter the most. Aggressive social distancing, avoiding all non-essential social contact, avoiding public places like bars, restaurants and movie theaters, and practicing obsessive hand hygiene are all critically important.”


From www.theguardian.com: I'm an ER doctor. Please take coronavirus seriously | Clayton Dalton


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 22, 2020)

It's worth pointing out Italy was regarded as having one of the best healthcare systems in Europe before this outbreak. 

That may, in part, be why Italians have one of the longest life expectancies in the developed world. That means there's lots of old Italians who are vulnerable to diseases like this, unfortunately.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

I'm literally there, there are lots of deaths but no one linked to COVID-19 specifically killing them. Hundreds of thousands of people get sick and die each year.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> Your first argument is a blatant lie. Go look at the situation in italy, or read or talk to any medical man. I can link you an interview with one of germany's prime virologists, Mr. Drosten, it's even in english.
> 
> For your second argument I'd like to see a source, not because I don't believe it, mind you, but because I'd like to know where you take this certainity.
> 
> The third point is quite immaterial for this discussion - population growth has nothing to do with the corona virus



I'm literally there, there are people getting I'll and dying, but that's happened every year. These deaths arent linked to COVID-19,  there are hundreds of viruses out there causing people to get I'll and die every year. This year is no different.

The lack of any citation of anything happening is the proof, there is no source of anyone dying from COVID-19 as the primary cause because it didnt happen.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I cant find any proof anyone died from COVID-19 as the primary cause.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Raever said:


> The Yeen said pretty much everything I wanted to say AND added sources. So, guess all I want to personally add is some friendly reminders:
> 
> 1. Carona is not nearly as bad as The Black Plague (at least not yet), people need to stop over reacting to it
> 
> ...



Well the problem with the reported deaths this year is that they weren't primarily caused by COVID-19. 

I'd still like to see definitive cases where testing was done to isolate COVID-19 as the primary cause.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> I mean, I would have thought that the video footage of trucks carrying bodies out of towns in Lombardy to emergency crematoria would have been enough to persuade people that Covid-19 isn't just a 'flu'.



That's an implicitly narrated and edited video of pacifiers that are used to transport live support workers, not dead bodies.

I saw no dead bodies, just animated text implicitly super imposed.

I'd be very careful about posting false doctored information like that.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Kumali said:


> You’re not even reading the information I’ve posted links to, are you.
> 
> 
> Once again:
> ...



I read that, that's peoples opinion and narriation.

There are 8 billion of people in this world, I'm asking about are there any documented cases of COVID-19 killing someone as a primary cause and details?

I read one anecdotal report of a girl who contracted some cold at a gym, she was hospitalized for a week with pneumonia,  she was tested and found to have the COVID-19 but hundreds of other infections.

That was the closest I could find but could not confirm it.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> It's worth pointing out Italy was regarded as having one of the best healthcare systems in Europe before this outbreak.
> 
> That may, in part, be why Italians have one of the longest life expectancies in the developed world. That means there's lots of old Italians who are vulnerable to diseases like this, unfortunately.



The hype in Italy just is not true.

There is a mortality rate here but this year is only slightly higher than last year.

It's a slightly worse than average year but people arent dropping like flies here.


----------



## Simo (Mar 22, 2020)

Not to be overly technical, but could this thread please be used to discuss the impact of Coronavirus on Furry Conventions, other gatherings and how this will impact the furry community?




VX666 said:


> Well the problem with the reported deaths this year is that they weren't primarily caused by COVID-19.
> 
> I'd still like to see definitive cases where testing was done to isolate COVID-19 as the primary cause.



It matters little that the virus is the 'technical' cause of death: that's splitting hairs. Similarly, in HIV/AIDS, death is due to 'other complications', but those complications/causes would not have been there, if not for AIDS. Please stop with all these posts about how Corona Virus in either not to blame or not dangerous.

Again, if you wish to expound upon this, please start a thread of your own to do so; this is meant to discuss the impact of the virus on the furry community.

Thank you.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Simo said:


> Not to be overly technical, but could this thread please be used to discuss the impact of Coronavirus on Furry Conventions, other gatherings and how this will impact the furry community?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, why are you singling me out?

We very much are trying to determine the dangers of this virus, it doesnt discriminate furries in particular or not.

HIV is the primary underlying cause in AIDS cases. There are many documented cases of deaths from HIV as a primary cause.

But there isnt any for COVID-19.

We know it spreads quickly and easilly. But we haven't seen anyone die from it as a primary cause.

I'm not saying we should ignore the dangers but there are 200 other viruses that come and go each year to worry about too in large gatherings, why stop now?

This thread literally states Furry Conventiond and COvid19,That is literally what we are talking about, why would you suggest we start another thread?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> Well the problem with the reported deaths this year is that they weren't primarily caused by COVID-19.
> 
> I'd still like to see definitive cases where testing was done to isolate COVID-19 as the primary cause.



there you go: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...chte/2020-03-21-en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Is in english, don't worry. 47 deaths due to Corona/Covid-19 in Germany.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> there you go: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...chte/2020-03-21-en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
> 
> Is in english, don't worry. 47 deaths due to Corona/Covid-19 in Germany.



I read that, it doesnt say the 47 deaths out of 16000 were primary caused by COVID-19.  Also it's a fairly average mortality for any viral infection. 

I'm not saying ignore it,  but perspecticely, we have 200+ other species of viri going about each year. Why stop the world now?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> I read that, it doesnt say the 47 deaths out of 16000 were primary caused by COVID-19.  Also it's a fairly average mortality for any viral infection.
> 
> I'm not saying ignore it,  but perspecticely, we have 200+ other species of viri going about each year. Why stop the world now?



It says exactly that. 47 deaths caused BY THE CORONA VIRUS.


----------



## Simo (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> First of all, why are you singling me out?
> 
> We very much are trying to determine the dangers of this virus, it doesnt discriminate furries in particular or not.
> 
> ...



Because this thread was started to discuss the impact of the virus on Furry Conventions, and was created in the furry conventions section of the forum specifically to do so, as opposed to threads in more general sections of the forum.

I'm singling you out because I think your opinions are hamfisted and border on the misanthropic.

Again: Please start a thread in another section, such as politics and current events, if you wish to argue that the virus isn't killing anyone.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 22, 2020)

Simo said:


> Because this thread was started to discuss the impact of the virus on Furry Conventions, and was created in the furry conventions section of the forum specifically to do so, as opposed to threads in more general sections of the forum.
> 
> I'm singling you out because I think your opinions are hamfisted and border on the misanthropic.
> 
> Again: Please start a thread in another section, such as politics and current events, if you wish to argue that the virus isn't killing anyone.


The main thread for that got locked. Mewtwo already warned people about spreading misinformation there.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> It says exactly that. 47 deaths caused BY THE CORONA VIRUS.



But not primary cause.

You need to understand that in infectous disease terminology, cases and deaths only have the criteria to test positive for a pathogen, it does not specify if the pathogen was the primary cause unless explicitly stated.

Meaning that a lot of people get sick and die, they test and 99% of the time they will test positive for dozens of viri, it's very inclusive to up numbers that way but hard to determine primary sole cause.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

> Redacted by staff



Yes, the primary cause. Just becuase you keep saying this doesn't make it any more true.

People get covid 19, get pneumonia and die - the fact that they got pneumonia from Covid 19 is the _primary cause _for their deaths. Without Covid 19 they would not have gotten pneumonia and died.

Jesus.


----------



## Simo (Mar 22, 2020)

> Redacted by staff



Please start a thread of your own to do so in an appropriate section of the forum.

Thank you.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> Yes, the primary cause. Just becuase you keep saying this doesn't make it any more true.
> 
> People get covid 19, get pneumonia and die - the fact that they got pneumonia from Covid 19 is the _primary cause _for their deaths. Without Covid 19 they would not have gotten pneumonia and died.
> 
> Jesus.



Read your own material, it does not state primary cause.

We are  not talking about the domino affect, we are talking about the primary cause. There are hundreds of viruses that cause pnumonia.

Its which virus, but more importantly, the vehicle for distribution.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

Simo said:


> Please start a thread of your own to do so in an appropriate section of the forum.
> 
> Thank you.



We're literally talking about the topic at hand, why dont you start a different thread?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> Read your own material, it does not state primary cause.
> 
> We are  not talking about the domino affect, we are talking about the primary cause. There are hundreds of viruses that cause pnumonia.
> 
> Its which virus, but more importantly, the vehicle for distribution.



Can you not read? Here, I'll underline it for you.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> Can you not read? Here, I'll underline it for you.
> 
> View attachment 83230



Like I said.

Doesn't say primary cause.


So back to my original point, yes COVID-19 spreads quickly and is contagious, but it's far less deadly than the other 200+ pathogens going around each year.

I dont think we should cancel events, BUT any of the 200+ infections you can get are not cool.

We should have far better sanitation protocols at events, not just close them and put artists and event  organizers out of business.

If you want to argue about threads and topics, I say we need to discuss cleanliness and sanitation at conventions and such events.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> Like I said.
> 
> Doesn't say primary cause.



I quote "due to covid 19" 

In english, "due to [X]" means that X is the reason for something happening. Reason usually implies a degree of causality, which you could also call primary cause. So - no, you're wrong. It says primary cause _right there_


----------



## Simo (Mar 22, 2020)

@SSJ3Mewtwo : Could you please lock this thread? I have sent a report, as well, pertaining to the matter.

Many thanks,

S. Skunk.


----------



## VX666 (Mar 22, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I quote "due to covid 19"
> 
> In english, "due to [X]" means that X is the reason for something happening. Reason usually implies a degree of causality, which you could also call primary cause. So - no, you're wrong. It says primary cause _right there_



That's just false and bad medical advice / reasoning.

A death can be due to many things, but one primary cause.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 22, 2020)

Simo said:


> @SSJ3Mewtwo : Could you please lock this thread? I have sent a report, as well, pertaining to the matter.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> S. Skunk.


I sent one earlier as well.
This has gone too far.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 22, 2020)

VX666 said:


> That's just false and bad medical advice / reasoning.
> 
> A death can be due to many things, but one primary cause.



This is not medical reasoning or advice. It's lingustic advice - I am merely explaining what the report is stating because you apparently have not understood it.

I am not sure why you are so deliberately trying to mislead people, but I do not approve of it.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 22, 2020)

I am going to ask that users in this thread please cease replying to VX666's posts in it.

I am also going to ask that those who were replying please research the concept of 'baiting'.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 22, 2020)

Simo said:


> @SSJ3Mewtwo : Could you please lock this thread? I have sent a report, as well, pertaining to the matter.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> S. Skunk.



I have addressed the issue, and will allow the thread to remain open.  My main concern is that people not fall for blatant attempts at water-muddying.


----------



## Raever (Mar 22, 2020)

_My face hurts...
_
Anyway, assuming all above is squashed, my general answer is that conventions will likely not be held (for obvious reasons) until we have more control of the virus and have an actual plan to fight against it. I feel like this should be common knowledge though. If anyone hosts a con before Carona is handled, I'll be AMAZED if anyone even attends. This goes for other social based events as well, again, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 22, 2020)

Raever said:


> Anyway, assuming all above is squashed, my general answer is that conventions will likely not be held (for obvious reasons) until we have more control of the virus and have an actual plan to fight against it. I feel like this should be common knowledge though. If anyone hosts a con before Carona is handled, I'll be AMAZED if anyone even attends. This goes for other social based events as well, again, for obvious reasons.



Indeed, and my posts in this thread have been intended to show why that is. Particularly for the benefit of anyone still questioning or trying to deny the reality of the situation, as regards furcons or any other gatherings. Point made, I think; I'll go back to lurking now.


----------



## Keefur (Mar 24, 2020)

Wild Nights, a Furry camping/outdoor con in Oklahoma has postponed their con until next year due to the virus.


----------



## Simo (Apr 10, 2020)

Keefur said:


> Wild Nights, a Furry camping/outdoor con in Oklahoma has postponed their con until next year due to the virus.



Saw this today, via Twitter, and thought I'd pass it along:

"AnthrOhio 2020 has been cancelled this May due to COVID-19 concerns Any hotel reservations made with our ANT group code need to be cancelled by April 15th. Please call 614-885-1885, option #2 and refer to our ANT room block code."

~

My thought is that pretty much every con will be delayed/cancelled, now through September.

It appears Anthrocon is still planning to 'happen' in early July, but I imagine that on the off chance it does, it's going to be much smaller.


----------



## Keefur (Apr 10, 2020)

Simo said:


> Saw this today, via Twitter, and thought I'd pass it along:
> 
> "AnthrOhio 2020 has been cancelled this May due to COVID-19 concerns Any hotel reservations made with our ANT group code need to be cancelled by April 15th. Please call 614-885-1885, option #2 and refer to our ANT room block code."
> 
> ...


I seriously doubt AC will happen.  I was supposed to go vend at AnthrOhio.  I was a past GoH there and support the con.


----------



## Simo (Apr 10, 2020)

Keefur said:


> I seriously doubt AC will happen.  I was supposed to go vend at AnthrOhio.  I was a past GoH there and support the con.



Yeah, I bet AC will be called off. That guy who runs it (or started it), Papa Kage, seems to be pretty level headed based on his Tweets; my guess is that it's not been cancelled yet, just so people can dream.

Let's hope for better luck next year.


----------



## Ra'ara Su'nai (Apr 10, 2020)

Definitely hoping AC will still be on.


----------



## Rivercoon (Apr 22, 2020)

Last I heard AC is still iffy.  The Pittsburg City Council is crossing their fingers too as every large event in the city before AC has been cancelled.


----------



## Ra'ara Su'nai (Apr 23, 2020)

Daxma said:


> They updated their site a couple days ago saying that there has been a "no-large gatherings" order put in place and that they're looking into it. From the way it sounds there may not be an Anthrocon this year.


It's not surprising to see that the people of Pittsburgh are hopeful for anthrocon to happen. The mayor said in the opening ceremony last year that he had people calling for months leading up to the convention asking "When are the furries coming back?"


----------



## Guifrog (Apr 23, 2020)

Argentina FurFiesta has moved to 2021.

I'm not sure how staff from BFF believe an event in July is still feasible, but I feel their anticipated frustration with just the idea of cancelling/postponing it


----------



## FlooferWoofer (Apr 23, 2020)

I don't expect many conventions will happen, as all the hugs and close contact is a petri dish of cross-contamination. And then, due to all the traffic coming in from every state, the probability of interstate infection is very high. I think we are going to do the safe thing and not have them... and this is from someone who is getting their suit this year and wanted to go to AC... Maybe we should show people our community is responsible and forgo this for just one year. Again, I say this as someone excited to show off a new suit!


----------



## Dinocanid (Apr 28, 2020)

AC is canceled now officially


----------



## Guifrog (May 10, 2020)

Brasil FurFest has moved to 2021.

The moment when AC was cancelled I was already thinking about BFF's plans to bring Uncle Kage to the convention. This took a while and I still feel kinda sad about it, but that was the sensible thing to do


----------



## rekcerW (Jun 23, 2020)

Fuck me, I was totally thinking this is my year to get into a convention for the first time and boom, they're all cancelled. Son of a diddly.


----------



## TyraWadman (Jun 23, 2020)

rekcerW said:


> Son of a diddly.


_*Language*!!! _


----------



## MrSpookyBoots (Jun 23, 2020)

I don't expect any fur conventions to take place for the remainder of the year. I can see it leaking into next year as well until a vaccine is developed, which will take some time.


----------



## Ziggy Schlacht (Jun 23, 2020)

Boy, is this thread interesting to read from March to now.

There's a secondary level to the cancellations beyond safety. Even if we can magically make the con hyper safe (PAX East was _religious_ on sanitation which was wonderful, honestly, not even a sniffle from it, though I had very dry hands) attendance this year will be down. Cons that can't guarantee enough attendees to cover operating costs can't risk running. 

As bit of an idea, a not-furry event I run every year that averages 120+ attendees is cancelling because we need a minimum of 40 paying attendees just to rent the venue. This ignores paying for anything that would people *want* to attend.


----------



## Simo (Jun 23, 2020)

MrSpooky said:


> I don't expect any fur conventions to take place for the remainder of the year. I can see it leaking into next year as well until a vaccine is developed, which will take some time.



That's my take on things, as well: I think it's going to be a while. Hoping to go to a con next March/April, but even that seems iffy. (Motor City Fur Con or Fur the 'More)




Ziggy Schlacht said:


> Boy, is this thread interesting to read from March to now.
> 
> There's a secondary level to the cancellations beyond safety. Even if we can magically make the con hyper safe (PAX East was _religious_ on sanitation which was wonderful, honestly, not even a sniffle from it, though I had very dry hands) attendance this year will be down. Cons that can't guarantee enough attendees to cover operating costs can't risk running.
> 
> As bit of an idea, a not-furry event I run every year that averages 120+ attendees is cancelling because we need a minimum of 40 paying attendees just to rent the venue. This ignores paying for anything that would people *want* to attend.



It is curious to look back, having started this thread, back in March, sheesh.

I'd agree that cons are going to take a while to bounce back, and for a number of reasons:

1. The virus is far from under control. There could be additional spikes in cases, and outright restrictions on travel and gatherings. Even without such restrictions, many people simply won't want to take the risk.

2. Going to a con with tons of rules about distancing will be much less fun, even if it might be technically possible. But a con without hugs, wild room parties, and the kind of reveries that I associate with past furry cons would make me delay going to one, until I was able to...better enjoy myself.

3. The economy is in the worst recession since the great depression. Many people are out of work, under-employed, and don't have the money.

4. This level of uncertainty and lack of knowing what to expect if a con were to be held will make it hard for cons to guarantee enough attendees to cover basic operating costs.

...my guess is that cons will start to come back next spring/summer; would love to go to one sooner but I find it best to wait till I know I'll be able to let loose, and enjoy things without worry.


----------



## FlooferWoofer (Jun 24, 2020)

I've been telling myself "Ehh, maybe I'll go to Anthrocon next year" for almost a decade. Now that it's years later, and no longer an option it really highlights how much I took these things for granted sometimes. I want to support our cons and help them bounce back from a year of missed revenue and attendance growth by actually attending one next year. Let's just hope for the best that this Corona bunk doesn't stretch into 2021 somehow.


----------



## Gushousekai195 (Jul 6, 2020)

Virtual cons just don't cut it as replacements for real ones.  They're not the same.  You can't physically feel the soft fur of a fursuiter at a virtual con.  You can't physically hug your friends at a virtual con.  You can't have a fursuit parade at a virtual con.  If you watch a fursuiter dance, the dancer will be behind a screen instead of mere feet away.  You can't have dance cyphers at a virtual con.

I simply cannot live without ever going to a con again for the rest of my life.  ToT


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Jul 7, 2020)

Gushousekai195 said:


> Virtual cons just don't cut it as replacements for real ones.  They're not the same.  You can't physically feel the soft fur of a fursuiter at a virtual con.  You can't physically hug your friends at a virtual con.  You can't have a fursuit parade at a virtual con.  If you watch a fursuiter dance, the dancer will be behind a screen instead of mere feet away.  You can't have dance cyphers at a virtual con.
> 
> I simply cannot live without ever going to a con again for the rest of my life.  ToT


You could get a huge teddy bear plushie to hug in place of fur suits.


----------



## Gushousekai195 (Jul 7, 2020)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> You could get a huge teddy bear plushie to hug in place of fur suits.



That won’t be the same.  Teddy bears don’t hug back.


----------



## Simo (Nov 18, 2020)

Well, about 8 months since I made this thread. Is odd, looking back.

Looks like cons are still cancelled/not happening, at least though next spring; MFF has been nixed, and I see no plans for a con in The Motor City, or DC/Baltimore, typically held March/April.

I'm also wondering if some cons might just fold, as a result? Not sure how planning/budgeting works, but seems like there will be at least some casualties.

For my part, I really, really wanna go to a con again, but will wait until they are back to 'normal', as I wanna huggy, sensually immersive con experience, and think a socially distanced one would just not be much fun. And so...I will wait.


----------



## Gushousekai195 (Nov 19, 2020)

Simo said:


> I'm also wondering if some cons might just fold, as a result? Not sure how planning/budgeting works, but seems like there will be at least some casualties)



That’s what I am afraid of.

Why did this have to happen to us?!


----------



## WolfLight (Nov 19, 2020)

to be honest for everyones safety i think  all cons furry/brony  should just wait until it dies down ware we can get vaccines and be much safer so we can just have fun again ,i never been to one but im sure it is fun lol.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 19, 2020)

Went to Furality, a con held in VR Chat.
Closest approximation we will have for a while, I presume.
It was alright, I suppose. Technical difficulties here n there.
Raised a bunch of money for Saveafox, my favorite animal sanctuary.
Bought a hoodie, too.


----------



## DireDrag0n (Nov 19, 2020)

I've wanted to go to a VR con for a while now. Physical cons are obviously not safe with COVID around. We've even had a recent spike in cases. Are the physical cons going virtual, I wonder?


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 19, 2020)

DireDrag0n said:


> I've wanted to go to a VR con for a while now. Physical cons are obviously not safe with COVID around. We've even had a recent spike in cases. Are the physical cons going virtual, I wonder?


Majority of ones I've seen are just doing panels on Twitch or whatever.
At least VR cons still let you meet people.


----------



## Kumali (Nov 19, 2020)

Blue Ridge FurFare in Asheville NC is already planning on being a virtual event in 2021: https://www.blueridgefurfare.com 

We're living in a time of plague, y'all. First things first.


----------



## Kumali (Nov 19, 2020)

More updates:

From Anthrocon: "We hope that all our furry friends are doing well and staying safe during these trying times.
As we look towards 2021, due to the continued uncertainty surrounding COVID and our concerns for the safety of our attendees in a large gathering, we find it necessary to delay our typical October opening of online registration.
Hotel reservation dates will also be moved to a date later than usual. We will be evaluating our options through November and into December and will continue to post updates here to let everyone know when registration will open.
We apologize for the inconvenience of this delay; attendee safety is our priority."








						An update regarding 2021 registration — Anthrocon 2023 - Anthropolis: Our Furry City - June 29-July 2, 2023
					

As we look towards 2021, due to the continued uncertainty surrounding COVID and our concerns for the safety of our attendees in a large gathering, we find it necessary to delay our typical October opening of online registration.




					www.anthrocon.org
				




Anthro New England in Boston is flat-out cancelled: https://furrycons.com/event/16176/anthro-new-england-2021

No word as yet from Fur The More one way or the other.

All the 2021 cons on this list https://furrycons.com/calendar/calendar.php?year=2021&loc=na other than Anthro New England appear to still be planning on going ahead, but at least for the ones in the first half of the year I'd say that's extremely optimistic...


----------



## meeper23 (Nov 30, 2020)

I can only speak on behalf of when I bought tickets for Megacon Orlando 2020.  That was back in 2019 when I bought the VIP pass.  At first, they postponed the convention, then celebrities canceled the appearances.  They managed to get other celebrities to come in for the postponed dates.  When things didn't get better, they postponed it again until October calling it a limited Halloween event or something like that.  They allowed people to request a refund.  However, I didn't get the full refund of my VIP pass.  I did get the majority, but fees were taken out for the "VIP privileges" only available to VIP pass holders, which I think was a separate email to their staff & concierge.

They didn't outright cancel Megacon 2020 until they exhausted every possible date this year.  They need money and probably already spent money to vendors of the convention center, any fees to bring top celebrity guests, and any expenses that were non-refundable to them.  Now Megacon Orlando is happening in March 2021 for now.  I don't know if they'll even be able to host one in-person for March 2021.

As others who were saying on here, a social distancing convention under CDC guidelines wouldn't really be fun, at least in my opinion.  I go to conventions for celebrity appearances or exclusive merch.  Even if they got celebrities, if I have to be at least six feet away to take a picture with a celebrity, I'm not paying money for that.


----------



## Simo (Nov 30, 2020)

Kumali said:


> Blue Ridge FurFare in Asheville NC is already planning on being a virtual event in 2021: https://www.blueridgefurfare.com
> 
> We're living in a time of plague, y'all. First things first.



Maybe once physical cons start up again and a vaccine arrives,, they'll require furs to wear an official, cute 'lil tag, as proof of vaccination, kind of like when you take dogs or cats on a plane 

One can hope!


----------



## Kumali (Dec 1, 2020)

Simo said:


> Maybe once physical cons start up again and a vaccine arrives,, they'll require furs to wear an official, cute 'lil tag, as proof of vaccination, kind of like when you take dogs or cats on a plane
> 
> One can hope!



Would that mean everyone has to wear a collar? Works for me...


----------



## ManicTherapsid (Dec 1, 2020)

Simo said:


> Maybe once physical cons start up again and a vaccine arrives,, they'll require furs to wear an official, cute 'lil tag, as proof of vaccination, kind of like when you take dogs or cats on a plane
> 
> One can hope!



I wonder if there'll be rona-sonas now. Like big plush viruses walking round.


----------



## Simo (Dec 2, 2020)

ManicTherapsid said:


> I wonder if there'll be rona-sonas now. Like big plush viruses walking round.



here's some examples:







...there are actually police officers, in Bolivia, going around and warning people of the dangers of the virus. Always fun to see what a bit of Googling brings.


----------



## Limedragon27 (Dec 4, 2020)

The Coronavirus should be the least of your worries when it comes to diseases you can get from Furcons.


----------



## Simo (Dec 5, 2020)

Limedragon27 said:


> The Coronavirus should be the least of your worries when it comes to diseases you can get from Furcons.



I know, right? There's _girls_ at furry-cons, and as well all know: they carry cooties.


----------



## ZassperWulfox (Dec 7, 2020)

Kumali said:


> Blue Ridge FurFare in Asheville NC is already planning on being a virtual event in 2021: https://www.blueridgefurfare.com
> 
> We're living in a time of plague, y'all. First things first.


THIS IS SOOOO AWESOME!! at first i was really said that I would not get to experience a furry convention for the first time. I'm currently doing online school and jobless and i'm naturally antisocial bc anxeity, so social interaction is none existant for the last few months. But now i'm super excited knowing that there will be a Virtual convention for the South east part of the US and I can actually meet people in this area. this means everything to me


----------



## Kumali (Mar 22, 2021)

Update: Anthrocon canceled again for this year. https://www.post-gazette.com/life/r...year-pandemic-pittsburgh/stories/202103220066


----------



## Vinfang (Mar 22, 2021)

Simo said:


> here's some examples:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


reminded me of the garbage bug ad campaign back in 2000s.


----------



## Deleted member 134556 (Mar 22, 2021)

Wishing everyone here who is attending a furry gathering a safe experience, and hoping this pandemic will pass soon.


----------



## Simo (Mar 24, 2021)

Kumali said:


> Update: Anthrocon canceled again for this year. https://www.post-gazette.com/life/r...year-pandemic-pittsburgh/stories/202103220066


 This makes me think that cons won't be a thing again till at least fall/winter...or maybe spring, 2022. Can't wait to be able to go. I bet cons will be pretty busy, once they start happening again; there's going to be a lot of 'pent up demand', so to speak.


----------



## Ziggy Schlacht (Mar 24, 2021)

In the US anyhow, supposedly July 4th is the rough "back to normal" date. We'll see. Connecticon, so far, is still on, but we'll see if that holds true in a month. It's in Mid July.


----------



## Zehlua (Mar 24, 2021)

Hey, if yall are missing furcons, I could maybe throw a cool party in Furcadia? It's not the same, but it would be something fun


----------



## Mirko (Aug 14, 2021)

Judging on the latest news, Anthrocon will be canceled again  It's just sad, I don't now how long we will be limited of events. I mean, offline events. Online ones can't even get close to those vibe and feelings. The worst part that nearly half of population don't give a damn about coronavirus restrictions, so the limitations will be prolonged again and again. Is it hard to buy coronavirus test kit https://www.confirmbiosciences.com/covid19-sars-antigen-rapid-swab-test/ or get the damned vaccine? At this point, we already can't get herd immunity due to new delta variation...


----------



## SolDirix (Aug 14, 2021)

I miss when Califur was in Irvine. Sad they moved. Hopefully a new one might spring up down here in a couple of years.


----------



## OG_Chuck (Aug 15, 2021)

I think there wont be con into 2023


----------



## TR273 (Aug 15, 2021)

I know the UK's Scotiacon is hoping to run early next year....
....they hope.


----------



## Ra'ara Su'nai (Aug 19, 2021)

I’ve given up hope for conventions of any sort. I thought little PA Furfest might have some sort of hope, but hearing that FurryDelphia still required masks(that is bull crap and you will not convince me otherwise) I cleared it off my vacation plans. I have very little hope Furfest won’t have mask mandates, so I won’t be going


----------

