# Who cares about your art? (these people do)



## lazarus102 (Aug 10, 2021)

Welcome to the 21st century.. People are fake(AF), and care far more about their own vanity, than they do about the healthy progression of their peers. Frankly,  your art could look like a masterpiece, or like it was drawn by a two year old, and you'll still be told it's 'great'; by either the vanity seekers, or the niche few that like your style regardless of quality (IE: the people with no sense of refined taste).  From an objectively logical standpoint, if anyone truly gives a shit about you, or your art, they will at least take the time to critique it. 

Like, there's the people that take a second to give it a thumbs up, or add you to their watch list (along with the other 999999 people in their watch list), then there's the people that will take 5-10 seconds to type "It's really good!", hit enter, and be on their way. But the people that actually care about your art/progression will take the time to speak about the colors, the textures, shapes, anatomy, shadows/lighting .etc. And if someone is 'negative' about your art, that's only a bad thing if it cannot be used as a learning experience. If someone just says it's sucks, then when asked why, reply with '/shrugs, idk, it just does..' then those people are terrible and need to stay away from art IMHO. 

But if someone says 'this has some real potential, but the hands are abnormally small/eyes are abnormally large' or 'there's too much use of a single color', or 'something looks off about the eye placements' .etc. Then that is someone that actually cares about your art, and your progression in the art world, and those people should be taken seriously and with far more respect than someone that just drops a like, or hits you with 'That's SO great!'. 

Of course, even if you're one of those positive rose colored sunglasses people that can't stand to be the least bit negative, you can still be helpful in your comments. Rather than simply telling someone that their art is 'good', mention specific parts about it that stand out, and even set that artist apart from other artists. Their exceptional use of colors, their refined understanding of accurate anatomy, their expert use of lighting/shading within the piece .ect. Because highlighting someone's strengths can also help them grow, since if someone is already talented in one area (and they know it), then they will not waste time trying to 'fix' that area, and instead put their focus on the areas in which they are not as strong.

BTW, I'm writing this post because I've seen at least a few threads on here about artists that feel unappreciated, or stuck in a position in which they don't like their art, and feel unable to progress beyond that point. Placating people is NOT the nice thing to do, and regardless of the intentions of the lie, lies will always come out sooner than later, and more often than not end up hurting the person that's been lied to (far more then a hard truth would have). I've got a much more accurate version of a mainstream phrase 'It's better to tell a truth that brings a tear now, than to tell a lie that sends the person running for the blades later.'

Some people like fake praise and it helps them to move on/get better, but a lot don't (especially those smart enough to know that it's fake praise). And besides, people need to learn to accept/give (constructive)criticism, as that is one of the most helpful tools in self growth. The world isn't nice, and the more we placate and teach people to placate, the worse things will be for them when reality hits. You need evidence of this, just watch the auditions to any 'Got Talent' show.  (just as a side-curiousity now.. I wonder how many people from those shows ended their lives because they were told they were SO great at something that they actually had zero talent in, and made a total joke of themselves on live television..).

Also, as a general rule for here, and life and general; don't just accept the way that things are, if you have the power to improve the world around you in any small way, take that extra step, it can make a big difference (I mean, serious stuff, not dontating to UNICEF (FUN FACT: The CEO of UNICEF makes over 500k American per year..Your money is not going to impoverished people it's going into her fat salary.).. Try to be a little unique in your actions, you won't change a thing by throwing a glass of water into the ocean).


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## Deleted member 106754 (Aug 10, 2021)

I do believe some healthy constructive feedback with a level head on your shoulders is the way to go personally if you want to see an artist progress, but something I've learned over the years is that it's very hard to not step on peoples toes or just in general not get shit thrown your way for just trying to be fair.

In the past I used to be a bit more open about giving critique in the art that interested me, but quite frankly it has died down hard the last couple of years to the point where I might even scrap a comment typed out and just leave the page, or just end up with a generic "Nice picture!", to at least show that I appreciate what I saw no matter what other opinions I may have on said piece.

When you have people openly asking for critique just to cherry pick what they want to hear and get very defensive when you point out flaws you may see, or maybe even seemingly friends being open and vocal about appreciating your feedback when it might come out it hurts them it doesn't really solidify the thought that you're doing the right thing if people start thinking of you ill as a person for doing such. No one really want to be an ass and so I think a lot of people just rather play it safe. As an artist it's probably hard to not to be nice to people being nice as well, since you don't want to be seen as that mean artist that doesn't appreciate nice comments or just ignore people. It kinda becomes a bad loop.

It seems to be hard for people to comprehend a line where people give feedback out of appreciation in a nice way, and people just being asses with lack of understanding.

Personally I'd give more feedback on art, but honestly it has become reserved to people that come to me or when asked and even then I might hold back. This is specifically speaking of art though in and around the community. As far as other things go I honestly avoid to leave comments unless I have something nice to say just because I want to stay out of headaches and not get involved.


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## MissNook (Aug 10, 2021)

You nearly lost me in the first paragraph cause I thought it was more like some rant but your actual remarks have lot of values in them, even if I don't agree with everything you said 

I think the main point I want to give my opinion about, is that critiquing someone is not that easy. You have to be ready to take either a bad comment from the artist, and in the worst case, a shitstorm from their fans (even if they are small artists with not a lot of followers). And also you have to be able to give critique, meaning to take the time to analyze, to really try to define what you like in their art and why. It's not easy, we all have things we like without knowing why (for example I like the bread smell, but I will have difficulties to say why, and for me it's kinda like this for people not used to analyze art, they feel it but have difficulties to put words on it). But it is worth it! I totally agree with you on this point!

Also artists don't always want critiques because that's not what will do them any good as a person (not as an artist). If you're in a time where your self-confidence and esteem are really low, even a constructive criticism can wrong you. That's why I usually only give critique when asked and when it's not asked but I feel my critique could really help them improve I just asked if they want to have it, or if it's possible put the critique in spoiler and tell them to look at it whenever they are ready to.

Fake praises are a big NO for me too. You can give your opinion on the strong points of the art, which will be an only positive critique (as you said yourself with the rose-colored-glasses people ^^) so that it has value in it. Lying is not an option in this case in my opinion.

I would also say, more than being unique in actions we take, it's being realistic and coherent, put some thinking in what we do, why we do it and what will be the consequences (I feel it's also what you think but the "unique" part felt a bit off to me ^^)


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## Sven Solitude (Aug 10, 2021)

In my opinion, if an artist doesn't ask for critique (or other things) on their art or profile, there is no point to give any. Every person is different, everyone wants different things. There is no general rule I could follow, even with my best intentions. Really, either I know the artist more in person. Or he is very detailed about what he actually wants. Only then I can give something valuable and know, that the effort and time is not wasted.

Most of the time I have no clue why someone even uploads art, what they seek (if they seek anything at all). I'm willing to give, but then again, I have to know what they want first.

You brought up some very good points and it's important to think about them. So i'm glad you made the topic!


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## MoonlitEsau (Aug 10, 2021)

This post puts a lot of my thoughts into words, and highlights a few problems I have in regards to art. Of course I'm incredibly grateful whenever someone likes or compliments my drawings, but sometimes it's hard to tell whether they're being honest, or just trying to be polite. Like you said, criticism is the biggest compliment you can give to an artist, but I feel like a lot of people, myself included, have trouble giving it out of fear of hurting someone's feelings, even if the problem is glaring and actively hurting their art. There's also the problem of intent: some people like to make art just to relieve stress or have fun, and don't really care about continuous improvement. Because of that, I only give criticism when asked, and always ask for it myself. Thank you for making this post, it's a very good read!


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## lazarus102 (Aug 10, 2021)

Redlinelies said:


> I do believe some healthy constructive feedback with a level head on your shoulders is the way to go personally if you want to see an artist progress, but something I've learned over the years is that it's very hard to not step on peoples toes or just in general not get shit thrown your way for just trying to be fair.
> 
> In the past I used to be a bit more open about giving critique in the art that interested me, but quite frankly it has died down hard the last couple of years to the point where I might even scrap a comment typed out and just leave the page, or just end up with a generic "Nice picture!", to at least show that I appreciate what I saw no matter what other opinions I may have on said piece.
> 
> ...


Yea. While i hear what you're saying, it's still a bad way to react to it. I mean,  when you allow the fear of what they might say, to censor/silence your future comments,  you're effectively justifying their over sensitive behaviour. And as such it becomes more acceptable to be that way.  
I mean, not just you obviously, but people in general.  It's just a bad mentality.  Look at it this way, it's text, it can't hurt you.  If one artist acts like a dick just cuz you're offering some advice, then don't offer therm any more advice, but don't shut down on offering anyone advice.  

Some see it as condescension, but I've even left critiques on artists that i consider to be much more skilled than myself,  but they simply lag in a specific area. 

Imho, fight the good fight; censorship has become much too accepted in current day society.  It's getting to a point that more and more people are downright anti social because they're so afraid of what others will think of their words.  

Being yourself may not get you a lot of freinds, but it'll make you happier than freinding around with people that expect you to put on an act.  And at least then if you have freinds, you know it's real.


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## lazarus102 (Aug 10, 2021)

CrimsonKing3317 said:


> This post puts a lot of my thoughts into words, and highlights a few problems I have in regards to art. Of course I'm incredibly grateful whenever someone likes or compliments my drawings, but sometimes it's hard to tell whether they're being honest, or just trying to be polite. Like you said, criticism is the biggest compliment you can give to an artist, but I feel like a lot of people, myself included, have trouble giving it out of fear of hurting someone's feelings, even if the problem is glaring and actively hurting their art. There's also the problem of intent: some people like to make art just to relieve stress or have fun, and don't really care about continuous improvement. Because of that, I only give criticism when asked, and always ask for it myself. Thank you for making this post, it's a very good read!


One other thing i forgot to factor into the OP, and that's not to critique based on opinion. Like, I get tired of seeing massive blimp tits on everything, but i haven't made a comment about it in years,  cuz it's more of an opinion thing(though I'll never understand how people can be turned on by tits bigger than the character...),but ya, point is, if anyone is going to take my advice,  double check the thing you're criticizing (if anything) and just make sure it's not purely opinion based. 

Actually a better example of that is,  some artists draw characters that look too short or too fat, but with furry characters,  those things can be on a sliding scale.. even like, Male genetalia could be a bit bigger on a furry character than on it's human counterpart, while still remaining in the realm of 'normal' sized (for the size of the character).

And some deeper levels of critiques require more advanced artistic knowledge, but some things are just outright obvious to the naked eye.


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## lazarus102 (Aug 11, 2021)

MissNook said:


> You nearly lost me in the first paragraph cause I thought it was more like some rant


That's fair. I had been feeling some emotions over a recent potential betrayal/ghosting, so that probably leaked through in my words a bit. But it's mostly intended as a message to the community to be more open, and worry less about what other people think. Then perhaps all these artists that feel no connection to their target audience may feel a bit less lonely/ignored. 

It's important to build bonds and connections in general, otherwise, even with the artists that only do it for fun or to pass the time, why would they upload their art for others to see? And the more that one person improves, the more ability they have to help others to improve, and when someone helps you, that gives you a good feeling, and makes you want to help others. I mean, isn't that what a community is for (truely)?


MissNook said:


> You can give your opinion on the strong points of the art, which will be an only positive critique (as you said yourself with the rose-colored-glasses people ^^) so that it has value in it. Lying is not an option in this case in my opinion.


Strongly agree. It's one thing to have an opinion, share it or not, but why even say something is 'great' if it turns your stomach (for example). 



MissNook said:


> if it's possible put the critique in spoiler and tell them to look at it whenever they are ready to.


That's also a good idea, or if you don't know the artist, or are afraid of their fan base, or do know the artist and they're insanely self conscious, it may be better to send any critique in a direct message, rather than to say it in the open. They may take it better that way. A lot of the time if you try to critique someone in public, it will be an auto-reflex to defend themselves, even if the defense isn't really needed. 



MissNook said:


> you have to be able to give critique, meaning to take the time to analyze, to really try to define what you like in their art and why.


Yes, like have the knowledge on how to properly critique. Granted, with that said, I'm not saying that EVERYONE should critique. Things would likely get a little too political if that happened in a mass wave, lol.. Nor do I intend to say that people that don't critique, in turn don't respect the artist. I was more speaking of the people that are able to do so, making a greater effort to do so.  Cuz I've seen way too many far less than perfect pieces with a storm of "That's great!!" (or likewise) below it.. Even pieces that someone devoid of artistic knowledge could have critiqued. 

Keep in mind, I'm not saying to run in there and stomp on all of their hopes and dreams, but just a careful nudge in the right direction. And like MissNook said, even ask the person if they'd be ok with some constructive criticism beforehand. 



MissNook said:


> You have to be ready to take either a bad comment from the artist, and in the worst case, a shitstorm from their fans


IMHO, like I've said before, it's text.. Text can't hurt you unless you let it. Just laugh off the trolls and be on your way, lol. Kids these days be talking about 'online bullying', Well, shit.. I'm 40.. When I was a kid, I got actual bullied, to my face.. Can't ignore getting punched or spat on, but you can ignore internet trolls. Sometimes you can beat them down with intelligence (by simply proving that your argument makes the most rational, and objective sense), but if that don't work, #ignore, lol.. 



Sven Solitude said:


> Most of the time I have no clue why someone even uploads art, what they seek (if they seek anything at all). I'm willing to give, but then again, I have to know what they want first.


I think because they want to be seen, they want to be noticed. In this world where most people are separated from the real world by computers and smart phones, there's a whole lot of people that don't feel 'seen'. Everybody has their reasons for doing the art in the first place, but the only logical reasons I can see for uploading it is that either you want your art to be seen (in the hopes that someone may give advice on how to improve), or that you yourself want to be seen (as art is often the expression of oneself). 


Not to be the classic narcissist, but would it be out of place to ask that this thread be stickied? I think it could offer some valuable insight to both new, and talented artists alike (since a lot of people don't know how to handle critique (giving or accepting), or if they should, and under which circumstances).


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## Sven Solitude (Aug 11, 2021)

lazarus102 said:


> It's important to build bonds and connections in general, otherwise, even with the artists that only do it for fun or to pass the time, why would they upload their art for others to see?


You are right. Personally, I know the perspective as an artist (hobby/amateur), creator, as a watcher and as a customer. And in all cases, a friendly connection is the most important to me. I would enjoy it greatly to have some actual conversations about the art and the deeper mening behind it, where the ideas come from etc. Just saying "Looks good.", "Thanks." isn't for me, it's not fulfilling.
When I look for art to enjoy, I only focus on the things that I like. This way, I'm always positive and every comment I make is honest. Sometimes I meet friendly people randomly, like in communities. And then I may discover they are artists as well. I immediately feel a connection to their art as well, because I have a connection to the artist, to the person itself.
I notice it all the time. When I don't feel a connection, I lose my interest. Like commenting on stuff made by popular artists. My tiny comment vanishes in the vast ocean of comments. Same with YouTube etc. I definitely prefer to support smaller ones, they need it the most. And we are usually more connected, it's just super cozy. ^-^



lazarus102 said:


> Everybody has their reasons for doing the art in the first place, but the only logical reasons I can see for uploading it is that either you want your art to be seen (in the hopes that someone may give advice on how to improve), or that you yourself want to be seen (as art is often the expression of oneself).


That makes sense. People who want to earn money this way, they want to be seen of course. People who do it as a hobby can decide if it makes sense to upload their creations.
Personally, when I decide to share, I always want to meet people who like the same or similar things. It might lead to more good things. 
But it can also end up in disappointment, when we don't receive what we are looking for. Can be a bit tricky with the expectations. That's why I always read profiles and descriptions. The clearer people are about what they seek, the better in my opinion.


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## RailRide (Sep 22, 2021)

Sven Solitude said:


> You are right. Personally, I know the perspective as an artist (hobby/amateur), creator, as a watcher and as a customer. And in all cases, a friendly connection is the most important to me. I would enjoy it greatly to have some actual conversations about the art and the deeper mening behind it, where the ideas come from etc. Just saying "Looks good.", "Thanks." isn't for me, it's not fulfilling.


Fully agree here. I tend to write somewhat long-winded descriptions with my uploads, divided into a description of the pic itself (even if it's a commission, if I know something about the character, I try to include some backstory), and a "technical" section that describes stuff about how I accomplished the pic (especially if I learned a new technique/effect/tactic). I absolutely like getting into conversations about stuff that went into the pic, and/or the characters featured in it.



Sven Solitude said:


> When I look for art to enjoy, I only focus on the things that I like. This way, I'm always positive and every comment I make is honest. Sometimes I meet friendly people randomly, like in communities. And then I may discover they are artists as well. I immediately feel a connection to their art as well, because I have a connection to the artist, to the person itself.
> I notice it all the time. When I don't feel a connection, I lose my interest. Like commenting on stuff made by popular artists. My tiny comment vanishes in the vast ocean of comments. Same with YouTube etc. I definitely prefer to support smaller ones, they need it the most. And we are usually more connected, it's just super cozy. ^-^


I often eyeball the homepages of new watchers and also those of unfamiliar names faving my uploads. Primary motivation is to see if they're artists as well, secondarily (is that a word?) is to see how the pic of mine they faved compares to others in their fave gallery. Sometimes you can see what motivated the +fave or watch, other times it's just funny when the subject matter of your pic is markedly different from what they had been faving before/after, particularly if those other pics betray the particular tastes/kinks of the user.

Sometimes I'll comment popular videos, not so much for the YouTuber to see, but for the benefit of random watchers browsing the comment section. One place I do tend to favor smaller creators is on Picarto, where I'll favor watching interesting artwork being done by artists with only a handful of watchers, as there is a greater chance that they'll answer a comment or even strike up a conversation about what they're doing.


Sven Solitude said:


> That makes sense. People who want to earn money this way, they want to be seen of course. People who do it as a hobby can decide if it makes sense to upload their creations.
> Personally, when I decide to share, I always want to meet people who like the same or similar things. It might lead to more good things.
> But it can also end up in disappointment, when we don't receive what we are looking for. Can be a bit tricky with the expectations. That's why I always read profiles and descriptions. The clearer people are about what they seek, the better in my opinion.


Interaction between multiple creators' characters is something I'm really big on. I crafted (and recently restarted) a comic designed to illustrate the way my OC's behave and think amongst themselves, with the aim of eventually having suitable OC's of other artists/character owners cross paths with my own, potentially progressing into collaborative works depicting activities suggesting various characters have social circles extending outside their creators' roster. The recruitment part is the challenging bit since the characters involved need to have enough headcanon behind them that their creators could describe their behavior in a variety of situations that may lie outside their primary attribute/s. (Also preventing it from being abused as a "free-art" opportinuty).

I've already had a couple of walk-on roles pass through so far, but those were characters of people already watching me. 

I recently started taking more extensive tours of watchers/commenters homepages and looking at their favorites, using those as a jumping-off point to the artists/commissioners responsible for interesting-looking artwork appearing in them. I notice a lot of really good-looking material that unfortunately there isn't any chance of engagement with the artist because: 
(1)--their gallery is composed entirely of commissions, so they'll have little to say about the characters appearing in their gallery here
(2)-- they have no OC's themselves or have little/no time to devote artwork to them owing to the volume of commission work they get (and its needed to make ends meet).
(3)--their gallery here is an extension of their Patreon and any conversation they make is reserved for those behind the paywall (I don't know this for a fact, but it seems plausible that interaction with the artist would be among the perks).
(4)--language barrier (mostly Russian).
(5)--they're only active on Twitter (artists _and_ commissioners), and FA is just a file dump to them, assuming they haven't completely walked away from it in favor of mainstream social media.

---PCJ


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## Stray Cat Terry (Sep 22, 2021)

Many of the above already covered what I had to tell about this topic, so I'll just go short on what I gotta cover myself:

Career make people get hasty, they also need to be short and quick on stuff in order to save their spare time! Not many people have enough time to browse art (especially during work) and also leave critiques constructively... But most of them still got a bit 'benevolence' to actually say a simple 'nice' and 'cool' etc.

Reality made us here, I believe!

That being said, I gotta move on to another spot fast! See ya folks!

P.s. It's no doubt a nice thing to see people--regardless of what I just covered--being able to spend time to leave constructive criticisms and so on!


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## Sven Solitude (Sep 22, 2021)

RailRide said:


> Fully agree here. I tend to write somewhat long-winded descriptions with my uploads, divided into a description of the pic itself (even if it's a commission, if I know something about the character, I try to include some backstory), and a "technical" section that describes stuff about how I accomplished the pic (especially if I learned a new technique/effect/tactic). I absolutely like getting into conversations about stuff that went into the pic, and/or the characters featured in it.


Nice! That's exactly what I like and want to see more of.  Will definitely take a look around your works when I find the time soon~



RailRide said:


> Interaction between multiple creators' characters is something I'm really big on.


It's always nice to see someone who is passionate about something! *-*
What I like is to experience my own adventures. I was always a gamer since I can think, so it's normal for me to have the control and to make my own decisions. I'm not interested in books, movies, comics etc. There are only a very few exceptions, but it is not enough for me to just watch. When I look at art, let's say a landscape drawing, I like to imagine to be there myself. To feel the wind or to smell the grass and trees~ Experiencing my very own adventures. ^-^



RailRide said:


> (1)--their gallery is composed entirely of commissions, so they'll have little to say about the characters appearing in their gallery here


Did you try to find or talk to the owners of the characters? Or are you only interested in doing this with other artists?


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## lazarus102 (Sep 23, 2021)

Sven Solitude said:


> It's always nice to see someone who is passionate about something! *-*


Passion is something that's always been difficult for me. I can get deeply passionate about things, but I'm far too self critical, and tbh, have very low self esteem. And tbh, with so little unprompted support in my life (pretty much none), I find it difficult to be really driven about anything. Depression and self loathing can really destroy one's passion..


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## Fallowfox (Sep 23, 2021)

Perhaps we should not desire attention or art criticism from strangers on the internet. 
Perhaps that is an impediment to creating and enjoying art.


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## RailRide (Sep 23, 2021)

Sven Solitude said:


> Nice! That's exactly what I like and want to see more of.  Will definitely take a look around your works when I find the time soon~


Thanks 


Sven Solitude said:


> Did you try to find or talk to the owners of the characters? Or are you only interested in doing this with other artists?


I do look up the character owners appearing in these commissions, and I think I have asked a question or two, but I haven't broached the subject of crossovers since I still need to bring the comic to a state where all my OC's (including some created during it's hiatus) have been formally introduced. My output in that regard is slower than desired, but that's because of a full-time job keeping me out of the house for most of the day.

I've found some interesting _looking_ characters this way, and have actually run across a number of character owners stating on their homepages that they're looking for new acquaintances in the fandom (or just striking up a conversation), but as it stands I'm better at fielding inquiries regarding prospective crossovers/collaborations (or at least my future plans to accommodate them) than I am at messaging folks out of the blue asking if they want to introduce their characters to mine  (and that's assuming there's a less awkward-sounding way to put it), in the absence of genuine questions about said character/s devoid of any sort of agenda.

---PCJ


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## tentiv (Sep 24, 2021)

Another aspect to consider is whether the commenter even has enough artistic knowledge to offer critique. Even though I'm learning at a steady rate, my skills are still below average, so I tend to miss flaws that a better artist could point out and correct. I do try to point out specific things that I like, though.


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## lazarus102 (Sep 25, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Perhaps we should not desire attention or art criticism from strangers on the internet.
> Perhaps that is an impediment to creating and enjoying art.


perhaps we should not interact with one another and should lose ourselves in our own little worlds. That may not be the intent of what you just said, but it is, never the less, the effect of that mentality.

some may desire that level of solitude, but many use art as a form of expressionism, and when it's apparent that their expression hasn't been heard; it can bring them to feeling worthless and unseen, and even cause them to give up on their passion all together (how many galleries you come across, that seem to have potential, but only have 1-5 pictures(dating back X amount of years) and no input?). 

And to anybody that actually uses their brain, just getting a bunch of 'It's great!' from people, could be seen as a form of disconnect between the artist and the viewer. Again, not everyone needs to leave a full review, but when no one says anything unique, it can be disheartening for the artist.

In general though, that entire mentality, that we should be content with only our own input; is actually very toxic to the social structure of our society. There's so much dialog to make people content with being alone; instead of attempting to bolster and reinforce those around us so they don't have to be.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 25, 2021)

lazarus102 said:


> perhaps we should not interact with one another and should lose ourselves in our own little worlds. That may not be the intent of what you just said, but it is, never the less, the effect of that mentality.
> 
> some may desire that level of solitude, but many use art as a form of expressionism, and when it's apparent that their expression hasn't been heard; it can bring them to feeling worthless and unseen, and even cause them to give up on their passion all together (how many galleries you come across, that seem to have potential, but only have 1-5 pictures(dating back X amount of years) and no input?).
> 
> ...



Seeking input or approval from online audiences will not, for most people, result in satisfaction or happiness. A lot of people have commented on this feeling of digital loneliness; it's a result of the impersonal and anonymous nature of online spaces.  
I think the kind of input you want is more likely to be found in a real life art class, lead by somebody who has experience providing artists with encouragement and useful feedback. 
Depending on your location, covid-19 might prevent that. An alternative might be a small chat group of artists esp. if you know each other in real life.


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## lazarus102 (Sep 25, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Seeking input or approval from online audiences will not, for most people, result in satisfaction or happiness. A lot of people have commented on this feeling of digital loneliness; it's a result of the impersonal and anonymous nature of online spaces.


Yea, but complete lack of unique responses doesn't exactly help that either.. 
Though I do largely agree that this online social infrastructure has largely killed our ability or want to socialize IRL (well, not 'want' so much as we don't wish to risk the potential for bad RL social interaction). 



Fallowfox said:


> I think the kind of input you want is more likely to be found in a real life art class, lead by somebody who has experience providing artists with encouragement and useful feedback.


Nope.. Well, yes, but only if you don't want your art to be an outlet or excuse for social interaction. I mean, art classes are good for those that wish to improve, but it doesn't hurt to have the constructive input of your peers/viewers (unless you're a precious snowflake, in which case, get over it.. the precious snowflakes of this world are killing the human ability to socialize and turning anyone that is social, anti-social because people are afraid to say anything because they might offend someone (god forbid..)). 

But input from an art teacher (for someone that desires social interaction), is no better than getting 'professional help'. Talk about impersonal.. If you've gotta pay someone to talk to you, then they're not talking to you because you have any real sense of value to them. 

Sides, on that note (with psychologists), these days, they (most of them) only do one of two things; either medicate you, or push you to do the thing that you don't want to do, while ignoring your reasoning for not wanting to do it in the first place (like going out in public places/gatherings and talking to people..). Like, that face your fears shit might work with heights, but it's the opposite with social anxiety.. 

Because A: your fear is a large part of what causes a persistent disconnect with the people around you (So tossing you into a situation with a buncha people, is akin to tossing a buncha spiders at someone with arachnophobia, then expecting them to just get over it.). B: if you're autistic like me, even if you manage to shed that fear temporarily and put on a layer of confidence, you will almost always say something to put the other person/people off, even if it's not what you intended. 

Sides, I live in the middle of nowhere, so my options are pretty limited. Frankly, online audiences may not be 100% ideal, but even replying to conversations like this once or twice a day at least enables me to take my mind off of the endless lonely void, if only for a while..

Though in general, I think this world would be a lot better off if people weren't so damned afraid to talk to one another, or so easily offended when they do.


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## TyraWadman (Sep 25, 2021)

lazarus102 said:


> Nope.. Well, yes, but only if you don't want your art to be an outlet or excuse for social interaction. I mean, art classes are good for those that wish to improve, but it doesn't hurt to have the constructive input of your peers/viewers



I think Fallow was leaning more towards the fact that some people are only drawing for the attention, not the enjoyment of the creative process or because they want to tell a story. Like how teens becoming depressed when their selfies don't get enough likes.

You can't force people to take interest in everything you put out. Why would I obsess over 1million fanart pics of Warriors Cats drawn by 13 yr olds in MS paint when I've never read the book and never will? Do you know how many hours of my life that would take, if I left an honest critique on every single one? If you want improvement, you (universal you, not just you specifically) need to be proactive and seek it out. Don't wait for it to come to you. You might not get what you want on the first try, but if you never try, then you'll never succeed. There are plenty of groups out there online.

Sometimes the negative qualities of the artist is what drives viewers away (being full of themselves, thinking they're perfect, constantly telling others what they need to do instead of themselves, being a great artist but then being sent to jail for murder, etc etc). From what I've seen, most never bounce back from this by working on themselves. They just point fingers and return to the shadows, or assume their art quality will keep people around regardless.

That being said, there are plenty of those that actively shun feedback and perhaps they are just in it for the attention/fun. You telling them to stop being a snowflake isn't going to make them progress in anything. So why not let someone harmlessly vibe and let the more passionate artists shine in the spotlight?



lazarus102 said:


> But input from an art teacher (for someone that desires social interaction), is no better than getting 'professional help'. Talk about impersonal.. If you've gotta pay someone to talk to you, then they're not talking to you because you have any real sense of value to them.



It doesn't matter if it's online or in person, wanting constructive feedback is still the same. If you don't want to pay a professional for their time (something they've put decades of their lives into and deserve to be paid for their time instead of expecting handouts...) then you get what you get. Some people aren't actually pro and have a degree, but as you learn, you'll know who is bull-shitting you and who isn't. But you can't grow unless you keep learning from your mistakes (even social ones)! 



lazarus102 said:


> Sides, I live in the middle of nowhere, so my options are pretty limited. Frankly, online audiences may not be 100% ideal, but even replying to conversations like this once or twice a day at least enables me to take my mind off of the endless lonely void, if only for a while..



A lot of your posts end up circling back to how lonely you are. If you really want to generate replies and conversation, I'd recommend opening a gallery to where people can actually view your content (your FAF profile doesn't link to anything). Otherwise, you aren't very active on FAF, and when you are, it's almost always you talking negatively about a group of people in some way and then disappearing for a month.


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## lazarus102 (Sep 25, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> I think Fallow was leaning more towards the fact that some people are only drawing for the attention, not the enjoyment of the creative process or because they want to tell a story. Like how teens becoming depressed when their selfies don't get enough likes.


Not so sure that's a good comparison, at least not with respect to the artist. At least an artist puts work into their art. IMHO, selfies are just some narcissistic shit.. Like, "you should love me because I was born beautiful!".. I hate that selfies became such a big thing, just another way to push unattractive people deeper into the mud.. Like the mainstream media wasn't bad enough before selfies.. 



TyraWadman said:


> if I left an honest critique on every single one?


Like I said above, it only takes one, maybe two, people to leave an honest critique. Not everyone has the time for that. Someone does though..  But yea.. I am mainly talking about the artists that look like they're actually trying though, not MS paint tryhards, lol.. 



TyraWadman said:


> but if you never try, then you'll never succeed.


Obviously.. this is basic logic, and it looks great on paper, but fails to factor in the human element. People are geared biologically to avoid things that we fear. So, even though it may not be logical, fear of failure will trigger that same mechanism. Fear isn't logic driven, it's an emotion, and as such, it's not constrained by logic. Many people would rather go skydiving, than to be covered in non-poisonous spiders, even though one could most definitely kill them (if something went wrong), and the other is just cringey.. 



TyraWadman said:


> You can't force people to take interest in everything you put out.


I'm not suggesting that people go around seeking out bottom of the barrel art, and give it extensive critique. Obviously only look at the art that interests you.. 



TyraWadman said:


> being a great artist but then being sent to jail for murder


You shitting me, that literal scenario would actually make an artist more popular. Maybe not with the same crowds as before, but there's definitely some intrigue in looking over the art of someone that's killed a person. 



TyraWadman said:


> constantly telling others what they need to do instead of themselves


Or they're merely making suggestions, and are happy to receive input as well. Ya'kno, like, actual communities do. It's dumb to automatically assume that someone is being demanding, for merely making suggestions, especially if their intention was obviously to help.



TyraWadman said:


> So why not let someone harmlessly vibe and let the more passionate artists shine in the spotlight?


Because many artists that would be passionate, end up giving up because it ends up feeling like no one would give a flying shit either way. Many artists are lonely, because visual art, by nature, is a lonely hobby. It's like solitaire, some people play it to pass the time, others play is because lonely is their life. When people feel lonely, they often feel worthless, and it takes a lot more effort for those people to get off the ground with art, than for someone that feels good about their place in life. 



TyraWadman said:


> You telling them to stop being a snowflake isn't going to make them progress in anything.


It'll make them progress in life if they actually listen, lol.. Believe me, precious snowflake syndrome isn't helping anyone. 



TyraWadman said:


> something they've put decades of their lives into and deserve to be paid for their time instead of expecting handouts..


Wow, so people that pay money, have a higher value.. Jeez, wonder where you got that mentality.. Oh yea.. Society.. In other words, Ya-basic! Try to develop some unique thoughts of your own for once. 



TyraWadman said:


> it's almost always you talking negatively about a group of people in some way and then disappearing for a month.


I don't typically do that, unless you mean government/corporations. I disappeared for a month just now cuz the forums were down for that long, lol.. Also, my original FA art site profile got banned for like, no reason, lol.. Truth be told, a mod mistakenly banned me on here, and for some reason, that ban carried over to the art site, then I talked to that mod, who unbanned me on here, but I was never unbanned on the art site. But TBH, I'm very self-critical about my arts, and also haven't done an abundance of furry content (especially not since improving considerably over the past year). I am working on a piece right now which is good enough that I may post it. 

TBH, my issue with art is that I enjoy the sketch process far more than actually shading/lighting, or even coloring them (Because I don't consider those parts to be creative, so much as just.. detailing. At least in terms of the artistic process). 

But yea, believe it or not, there's no one I view more critically than myself.


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## TyraWadman (Sep 25, 2021)

lazarus102 said:


> Not so sure that's a good comparison, at least not with respect to the artist. At least an artist puts work into their art. IMHO, selfies are just some narcissistic shit.. Like, "you should love me because I was born beautiful!".. I hate that selfies became such a big thing, just another way to push unattractive people deeper into the mud.. Like the mainstream media wasn't bad enough before selfies..
> 
> 
> lazarus102 said:
> ...



You're projecting your own personal interpretation onto things though. It takes a lot of work to keep yourself in shape and it can take hours for makeup artists to do what they do. Heck, do you know how many actors are being put into Video games? You need a good photo of them for that! People are allowed to flaunt their skills. Just because it might not interest you, doesn't mean it isn't something to someone else.

 Art can mean different things for different people. I definitely focus better when I'm alone, but that doesn't mean _the world is gray and I'm forever by myself to wallow in my unrelenting sadness. T_T _It just means I am disciplined and wanna get shit done! XD I still have depression, I still create to express myself, but I will never pressure someone into experiencing my art. If they happen to get what I'm saying, then great! If not, who cares?

Some people collaborate too, which means interacting with other people. You can see it on FA all the time!



lazarus102 said:


> Or they're merely making suggestions, and are happy to receive input as well. Ya'kno, like, actual communities do. It's dumb to automatically assume that someone is being demanding, for merely making suggestions, especially if their intention was obviously to help.



In my hypothetical scenario, I was describing someone more along the lines of 'Do as I say, not as I do'. It would be unwise to have a smoking man run a therapy group to help break nicotine addiction while he's lighting one up. Does this example help?

Just because someone says they're well-intentioned, doesn't mean there won't be consequences to their actions. Just because someone wants to hang out and spend time with me 'as a friend' doesn't mean they're being my friend when I'm mourning the loss of a loved one and need time to grieve.



lazarus102 said:


> It'll make them progress in life if they actually listen, lol.. Believe me, precious snowflake syndrome isn't helping anyone.


Not disagreeing- but neither is joining (the equivalent of) a pointless twitter war over someone you'll otherwise never meet.



lazarus102 said:


> Wow, so people that pay money, have a higher value.. Jeez, wonder where you got that mentality.. Oh yea.. Society.. In other words, Ya-basic! Try to develop some unique thoughts of your own for once.


Where did I even say that? Please tell me. I only included that remark because you seem incredibly dismissive of the fact that advice from a professional is impersonal ONLY because you had to pay them. Getting a degree in something doesn't mean you're no longer bound to societies' standards and everything you could ever want is free. Veterans don't even get their basic needs, and rely off of donations and volunteers, as we should all know!

Or do you seriously expect everyone, _in a society influenced by money_, to just be so selfless and starve just so you (and thousands of others) have that one extra hour of therapy before they die of starvation and sleep deprivation? The art industry has always been underpaid and underappreciated... Is it really too much to ask to pay an artist more than $30 for 24+ hours of work?



lazarus102 said:


> But yea, believe it or not, there's no one I view more critically than myself.





Spoiler: If you want my two cents: 



Perhaps the reason you're so lonely is because you're cynical and have a short temper. No one is obligated to be your punching bag, and not every reply has to be made into a personal attack, or a political discussion.

I think it's important to humble yourself sooner than later. You act like you know how the world and every human being functions but you haven't been able to help yourself.

You want therapy, but you aren't willing to pay or work for it. You lack self awareness to know what you should be critical about and despite not knowing how the world functions OUTSIDE of your box, you think you know what's best for everyone else. If you want to disagree, that's fine, but you've already proven how oblivious you can be when you opened about Covid Restrictions.

*Recap:* Despite being upset about being locked up in your home for a month while sick, you somehow didn't know that there are more patients than doctors and that administering them with vaccines (in a safe manner) would take more than a month. You also seemed to believe that the vaccine was a cure, when in fact, it was made very clear that it was not. You could have easily found this information on your own while you were MIA, or even just asked about it to start a conversation, but you chose to be skeptical and even downplay the severity of situation.

After a while, when you find taking your own advice doesn't seem to be working, definitely ask some people/professionals for advice. It's completely normal for people to lack self-awareness, but the sooner you realize it, the sooner you can start living the best version of yourself.


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## lazarus102 (Sep 26, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> People are allowed to flaunt their skills. Just because it might not interest you, doesn't mean it isn't something to someone else.


Being born good looking isn't a skill or a talent.. That is some bullshit mainstream thinkin there.. 



TyraWadman said:


> Art can mean different things for different people.


Exactly my point. Maybe not everyone cares about input, a lot still do though. So with you arguing against that point, perhaps you're the one projecting? 



TyraWadman said:


> Just because someone wants to hang out and spend time with me 'as a friend' doesn't mean they're being my friend when I'm mourning the loss of a loved one and need time to grieve.


It does if their best method of grieving, is to be around friends in order to realise that despite their loss, there's still people around that care. 



TyraWadman said:


> twitter war


What? Lol.. 

Yes, I know what twitter is, but I have no idea how a war of any kind is what you've perceived from any of what I've said. 



TyraWadman said:


> because you seem incredibly dismissive of the fact that advice from a professional is impersonal ONLY because you had to pay them.


Well.. it's not personal.. Just sayin.. Hence the divider between paid professional, and, anyone else. 



TyraWadman said:


> Veterans don't even get their basic needs, and rely off of donations and volunteers, as we should all know!


That's because the country is fucked, and people actually believe the gov cares about them, even when it effectively tosses them on the streets after getting them to risk their lives for the ideals of those in charge. 



TyraWadman said:


> Or do you seriously expect everyone, _in a society influenced by money_, to just be so selfless and starve just so you (and thousands of others) have that one extra hour of therapy before they die of starvation and sleep deprivation? The art industry has always been underpaid and underappreciated... Is it really too much to ask to pay an artist more than $30 for 24+ hours of work?


Yea, and I never said any of that. A: not everyone can afford professional art consultation, B: even if they could, many wouldn't anyways, as they don't use art to make money, C: My main point at the core of all this, Why bother with comments like 'That's GREAT!' if that's the only thing that's ever going to be said, regardless of the quality or errors. Frankly, it's the normalization of that mentality, that is the reasoning behind me being a perfectionist.. 

As a child, no matter what I did (art wise and whatnot), my mother would tell me it was great. I started to see a pattern, she would say the exact same thing no matter what I did, no matter how good or bad it was, or if it had notable flaws.. So what's the point in giving input at all if it's always going to be the same? You may as well just replace "That's GREAT!", with "I looked at this!". 

It's like, if you've got a piece of art with an obvious objective flaw, like an anatomical error that was obviously not intended as a part of the art style. and 20 people comment with the usual "That's GREAT!". Ya gotta know that at least 1-2 of those people noticed the flaw but still replied the same. If 1-2 of the comments are an outright lie, then by that logic, any one of them could be. It's effectively fruit of the poisonous tree. This is why I don't like lies, regardless of the intention.


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## TyraWadman (Sep 26, 2021)

lazarus102 said:


> Being born good looking isn't a skill or a talent.. That is some bullshit mainstream thinkin there..
> 
> 
> Exactly my point. Maybe not everyone cares about input, a lot still do though. So with you arguing against that point, perhaps you're the one projecting?
> ...



Either you're cherry picking select phrases without the full context, or I don't think you've actually understood anything I've been saying so I will leave it as it is.


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## lazarus102 (Sep 27, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Either you're cherry picking select phrases without the full context, or I don't think you've actually understood anything I've been saying so I will leave it as it is.


Same could be said about you.  You've been painting my statement as black and white the whole time. You came in here with a preconceived judgement and nothing I've said has changed that, so, goodbye I suppose.


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## TyraWadman (Sep 27, 2021)

lazarus102 said:


> Same could be said about you.  You've been painting my statement as black and white the whole time. You came in here with a preconceived judgement and nothing I've said has changed that, so, goodbye I suppose.



You're still not making sense. 

If I truly believed things are either black or white, I wouldn't be playing devils advocate or be trying to show you the gray. I certainly haven't hit you with a "think an original thought for once" either. Incredibly dismissive/evasive.


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