# U.S. Government Shut Down



## ellaerna (Jan 20, 2018)

It's official, everything's been shut down.

So, how long does everyone think this one is going to last? I'm hoping that it won't be longer than the weekend, but who knows?


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## Telnac (Jan 20, 2018)

No...more...gov’t...supplied ogygen.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

I wish my moving date was here already.


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## Ramjet (Jan 20, 2018)

Yeah this blows...Not even gonna bother opening up my portfolio on Monday


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 20, 2018)

Does it stay like this indefinitely?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> Does it stay like this indefinitely?


Depends on if our dumb politicians can come to a budget agreement.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Just learned that my mother will apparently be out of the job by Tuesday if this continues. Wonderful.


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## AustinB (Jan 20, 2018)

So... what does this mean?


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## Ramjet (Jan 20, 2018)

AustinB said:


> So... what does this mean?



It means non essential government employees are furloughed (out of work) until Congress can agree on a budget...


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## AustinB (Jan 20, 2018)

Ramjet556 said:


> It means non essential government employees are furloughed (out of work) until Congress can agree on a budget...


Well shiet. That sucks.


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## dragon-in-sight (Jan 20, 2018)

The more important question would be who's the profiteer of the shutdown. For exemple what about the special counsel investigation against Trump. Is it going to be affected by it? If trump feels the shutdown to be in his favour it could be a long ride.


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## Ramjet (Jan 20, 2018)

dragon-in-sight said:


> The more important question would be who's the profiteer of the shutdown. For exemple what about the special counsel investigation against Trump. Is it going to be affected by it? If trump feels the shutdown to be in his favour it could be a long ride.



I'd honestly say it's in the Democrats favor considering this report...

www.cbsnews.com: Republicans call for release of memo on alleged surveillance abuses


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## Open_Mind (Jan 20, 2018)

Giant banners declaring "Government Shutdown!" are a favorite way for media outlets to create fear. There is no doubt this is a big deal, but is not _nearly_ as panic inducing as the breathless reporters would have you believe.

Several agencies will temporarily offer reduced services. Some, like the Smithsonian museums on the National Mall, will close. However, our armed forces will still stand their vigilant watch; Social Security checks will still go out to millions of retirees; and the Dept of Veterans Affairs will still offer medical care to millions of former service members. 

The phrase 'government shutdown' sounds scary but really is a misnomer, because so many agencies are not affected. It's a term invented more by those who wish to inflict political harm. This has happened many times before (the most recent about 4 years ago). It is something that's been practiced often, and will be implemented in a way that causes the least amount of disruption.

Here is a link to an article with more information.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/po...overnment-shutdown-2018-open-closed-furloughs


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

When you have such a polarized state this is what happens. Old fucks in charge who act like a bunch of entitled and spoiled little shits babies instead of properly doing their job, which is serve the public and the people they are supposed to represent and protect. 

A government shut down was not unexpected. In fact, I expected it, considering the Dems and a decent amount of Reps pretty much despise Trump and the fact that he can and will threaten and limit their power, not to mention introduce term limits. No longer career politicians in government. You have to introduce new blood at some point, and this is just a good time as any.

New blood that have grown up with gay and trans rights. New blood that most likely have such friends, on all sides. New blood that doesn't steer away from proper discussion. New blood that have grown up with and maybe on the internet.

If I lived in the US and I had a chance to run for office or becoming a Senator, I would do my damned best to serve and protect, just in a different way.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Wait... what?


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 20, 2018)

Washington not doing their job again. Nothing new there.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Oh I read about it now, and as I see it sucks for you...


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

Nothing new nowadays.  It hurts the employees that are going to be furlonged more than anyone else.  

I saw we cut the pay of the politians and save the money there.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Holy shiet we have to to thi... *polish politicians voted to don't do it*
*And voted to raise their salary*


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## Nightlock (Jan 20, 2018)

Washington screwed up again, big surprise. I'd give this shutdown no longer than a week before getting worried. I really doubt it'll last any longer than that.


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## Corrupt-Canine (Jan 20, 2018)

"O P P O S I N G  O P I N I O N S  D O E S  N O T  C O M P U T E!!!"
*Government shuts down*

Though, seriously. They need to get their act together and stop resorting to shut downs because they can't just get their jobs over with.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 20, 2018)

They all need to be fired. Out here in the real world you get fired for not doing your job.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Wow, your situation more and more is similar to Polish in the end of 17th century and beggining of 18th century, global power with corrupted politicians (well in Poland then it were nobles) that argue with each other and are doing shut downs...


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## Nightlock (Jan 20, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> They all need to be fired. Out here in the real world you get fired for not doing your job.



And out here in the real world, we don't just decide to shut our jobs down because we actually (most of the time) know how to function. Take notes.


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## Nightlock (Jan 20, 2018)

Corrupt-Canine said:


> "O P P O S I N G  O P I N I O N S  D O E S  N O T  C O M P U T E!!!"
> *Government shuts down*



That just about sums it all up, really.


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Wow, your situation more and more is similar to Polish in the end of 17th century and beggining of 18th century, global power with corrupted politicians (well in Poland then it were nobles) that argue with each other and are doing shut downs...


They act like they are fucking nobles.  One of them was my key note speaker when I graduated from community college.  After the ceremony he stuck around long enough for a few photos and shuned everyone that tryed talking to him about important issues.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> They act like they are fucking nobles.  One of them was my key note speaker when I graduated from community college.  After the ceremony he stuck around long enough for a few photos and shuned everyone that tryed talking to him about important issues.


Well I wish that it will not end like for us in 18th century


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## ellaerna (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Just learned that my mother will apparently be out of the job by Tuesday if this continues. Wonderful.


Same for some of my friends. 



Ramjet556 said:


> It means non essential government employees are furloughed (out of work) until Congress can agree on a budget...


Those deemed essential still have to go to work, but they ain't getting paid for it, at least not until shit gets settled.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 20, 2018)

It just continues to reveal the immature nature of many Americans, our feeble grasp on reality and using religion to fill in all the blanks when we can't think of anything else, and also a total inability to listen to opposing sides of an argument.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> It just continues to reveal the immature nature of many Americans, our feeble grasp on reality and using religion to fill in all the blanks when we can't think of anything else, and also a total inability to listen to opposing sides of an argument.


Oh In Poland we have the same situation, you're not the only ones


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 20, 2018)

dragon-in-sight said:


> The more important question would be who's the profiteer of the shutdown. For exemple what about the special counsel investigation against Trump. Is it going to be affected by it? If trump feels the shutdown to be in his favour it could be a long ride.


Mueller's investigation continues fully funded by all accounts.  Bigger problem is that with this being an election year everyone is going to stick to their guns and blame the other side.  Fun fun fun!!


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Same for some of my friends.
> 
> 
> Those deemed essential still have to go to work, but they ain't getting paid for it, at least not until shit gets settled.



That's what I hate the most about this.  Its not affecting the desission makers.


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## ellaerna (Jan 20, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> That's what I hate the most about this.  Its not affecting the desission makers.


It's a sad time when politicians see shutdown as a legitimate strategy to get their way. Like, fuck you, do your damn jobs


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> It's a sad time when politicians see shutdown as a legitimate strategy to get their way. Like, fuck you, do your damn jobs



Well, every incumbent that has someone someone running against them aren't getting my vote.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Oh In Poland we have the same situation, you're not the only ones



Regressive-ness seems to be a thing in many countries right now. :/


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Regressive-ness seems to be a thing in many countries right now. :/


We live in post-modernism everyone have their own ideas and everyone is right for himself...


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## Inkblooded (Jan 20, 2018)

why dont they skip this part and just cancel the entire united states?


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## MetroFox2 (Jan 20, 2018)

I feel like being humorous, just to keep things around here defused, I wouldn't know enough about US governance to chime in anyway.

America.exe has encountered a problem with Government.OS: fatal system error. Government.OS has stopped responding.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> We live in post-modernism everyone have their own ideas and everyone is right for himself...



Yep, everyone thinks their right. They've been taught that their opinions are infallible.


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## Pipistrele (Jan 20, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> They all need to be fired. Out here in the real world you get fired for not doing your job.


I would get fired a long time ago if that was the case, but I guess that's beside the point


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 20, 2018)

Surprise government holding ransom tactics to instill fear into the slaves I mean serfs, I mean peasants I mean.. no what are they called. What did the other dukes call them. RIGHT voters and law abiding citizens.

I stand by the notion that our system is just a decorated feudalistic system. They act like feudal nobility, can do no wrong, and many of them are there simply via blood and the correct "Affiliation" for the region in which they live.

Their only agendas are "Stay in power" and "Make money by staying in power"

And a mass majority of them seem to generally hate the US population. They hold a general disdain and they are correct a mass majority of the people can't think. Everybody just turns on the idiot box then blinks at the propaganda source of their political bias then goes out screeching at everybody. Or panics when the propaganda machine tells them too.

We're just a bunch of serfs.

So government shut down. Its their benefit. This lboated jubba the hut of a government is in trouble. We have more debt than we'll ever be able to pay off. Yet we need more money? How many dead end programs, how many sink holes in money that is being shoveled to kick backs and dead end programs that are absurd.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> Surprise government holding ransom tactics to instill fear into the slaves I mean serfs, I mean peasants I mean.. no what are they called. What did the other dukes call them. RIGHT voters and law abiding citizens.
> 
> I stand by the notion that our system is just a decorated feudalistic system. They act like feudal nobility, can do no wrong, and many of them are there simply via blood and the correct "Affiliation" for the region in which they live.
> 
> ...


Wow....


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> Surprise government holding ransom tactics to instill fear into the slaves I mean serfs, I mean peasants I mean.. no what are they called. What did the other dukes call them. RIGHT voters and law abiding citizens.
> 
> I stand by the notion that our system is just a decorated feudalistic system. They act like feudal nobility, can do no wrong, and many of them are there simply via blood and the correct "Affiliation" for the region in which they live.
> 
> ...


I would prefer we keep DACA.


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## RakshaTheCat (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> If I lived in the US and I had a chance to run for office or becoming a Senator, I would do my damned best to serve and protect, just in a different way.


As long as you wear a good fursuit to that office, you have my vote >;3


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I would prefer we keep DACA.


Then blame all this on the person who gave it a time limit.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> Then blame all this on the person who gave it a time limit.


Damn you guys will blame Obama till you die.


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Damn you guys will blame Obama till you die.



No, every President we have had has done good and bad.  I blaming him because he put a time limit on it instead of forcing the issue of immigration reform.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> No, every President we have had has done good and bad.  I blaming him because he put a time limit on it instead of forcing the issue of immigration reform.


It'd be easy if the stupid Republicans would just continue with it instead of trying to destroy the thing and say Dems are obstructionist because they want to let "illegal immigration" into the matter.


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> It'd be easy if the stupid Republicans would just continue with it instead of trying to destroy the thing and say Dems are obstructionist because they want to let "illegal immigration" into the matter.



Because DACA is one slice of the whole issue at hand.

And neither side will back down on this.  We the people, are caught in DC politics where right now all they care about is votes.  "Dreamers" and their supports are being used for control of voting blocks in the up comming mid-term election.


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 20, 2018)

Democrates want illegals and cater to welfare people in order to keep votes on lock down. This isnt' a conspiracy this isn't a right wing nut job point of view. They have been doing this since the 1970's. Republicans focus on the religious aspect and the other things. They both manipulate a side.

However when you start to really look at the circular bs involving immigration. Illegal immigration is an issue because its clear as day. You enter illegally you're breaking the law. I can't go to australia wander around and not expect to not be deported. Same with Poland or any other nation. Yet here if you're here illegally its *magically* different.

I have no quarrels with immigration I just have issues with illegals being brought in as well as being used as political tools.

Cut away damn emotions and stand back and start looking at these issues.

Both sides push every socio-political issue they stand for division and simplistic votes.

Our two party system has polarized the nation and so many people are fucking fed up with this left right bullshit. We're sick of our options. Coke and Pepsi were fine until they started bottling diarrhea and declaring it cola.

This two party system acts like a one party system with a public "face" to distract. Go look at voting records. You'll see in numerous cases republicans that are only republicans via name sake.

Our political system is so corrupt and top heavy. Our economy is in shambles due to us gutting out many jobs and instead going through various forms of "Jobless recoveries" or " <insert name here> economies" We used to have a steady balance. Now we have outsourced nearly everything. Gave a tax breaks to those who outsource or bring in H1B visa's and etc.

And now you have larger companies that force manufacturers to outsource otherwise they won't stock the product because they demand a higher profit margin. Wal-mart is infamous for this.

So many companies have so much pull in this nation.

Its not we the people.

Its we the private interests that use the human resources that were formerly the people.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 20, 2018)

You do understand that illegals are hired by Republican owned business's so they won't have to pay them as much as they would an American, so their bonus checks at the end of the year are a lot more than what they would've been if they had hired Americans. And of course they will say they oppose illegal immigration so maybe we the people won't look into their hiring practices too closely. Its all bullshit.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> Democrates want illegals and cater to welfare people in order to keep votes on lock down. This isnt' a conspiracy this isn't a right wing nut job point of view. They have been doing this since the 1970's. Republicans focus on the religious aspect and the other things. They both manipulate a side.
> 
> However when you start to really look at the circular bs involving immigration. Illegal immigration is an issue because its clear as day. You enter illegally you're breaking the law. I can't go to australia wander around and not expect to not be deported. Same with Poland or any other nation. Yet here if you're here illegally its *magically* different.
> 
> ...


So what? Do you think the children of people who came here illegally should be thrown out? They're basically Americans. This is the only country they've ever know.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Mostly every official in office has some sort of agenda based on their party. Each parties agenda coincides with that they believe to be just, right, and desirable. The issue henceforth is the divide caused by the two party system and people who fall into the trap where they only have two choices, the lesser of two evils in their minds. They then depict themselves as a “democrat” or a “republican” and if you know anything about sociology and self identification in society... well yeah you fall into a stereotype. I’ll give you an example when it comes to immigration (because the people above talked about it)

When it comes to immigration, there should be no people illegally in the country plain and simple. Not because we want to be cruel and kick people out, but rather because they are in the country illegally. If they want to get in through legal means I have no objections so long as the country can support the immigration, for example; if there are a lot of jobs available, there is room for growth, and people coming into the country can contribute in some way shape or form. Its a good thing to have people who have multiple viewpoints in, especially when it comes to science and technology as it helps advance those fields. So to a degree you want people to be coming in, especially ones who are educated and know the language. 

At the same time one needs to ensure people who can cause harm to your country aren’t allowed in; aka people smuggling drugs, weapons, or criminals from other countries. The main purpose of a country in the first place is to protect it’s citizens and letting people come over without knowing who they are and what they are carrying causes issues. These people however make up a minority in the cases that occur with illegal immigration. Most of the time people who are here illegally came here on a tourist visa or something else and just stayed past the time they were supposed to. The solution to this problem is something I cannot come up with as I don’t have expertise in the field. However I can say the way the republicans are handling it, by removing people who have families or have been here for a long time, by trying to get rid of DACA or whatever it is... and other things of that nature is not the right way to go about it. At the same time on the Democrat side, you run into the issue that you can’t just let everyone into the country, you’re going to compromise security and cause an issue with economy especially when it comes down to unskilled labour. 

the solution lies somewhere inbetween, but since the two parties don’t seem to give a crap about the people, rather representing their own parties, they don’t have the gonads to actually come up with a compromise and instead keep the people arguing with eachother and labeling eachother, passing legislation to fuel the fire on top of it, to keep the people distracted while people who have money lobby and influence politics behind all of our backs (yes in both parties, which is why all these politicians have so much money, and why people like Bernie Sanders who run off of public contributions are sabotaged by their own party even if you didn’t agree with their policies...), and pull policies into their favor so they can keep making money off of us at the taxpayers expense. A pseudo-representative democratic, plutocracy if there ever was one in my opinion.

sorry i ranted again... but yeah stop arguing with people and find some good rational compromise people, stop buying into the idea that there are only one of two options that are right. Again, find good and rational compromise rather than fighting.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> Mostly every official in office has some sort of agenda based on their party. Each parties agenda coincides with that they believe to be just, right, and desirable. The issue henceforth is the divide caused by the two party system and people who fall into the trap where they only have two choices, the lesser of two evils in their minds. They then depict themselves as a “democrat” or a “republican” and if you know anything about sociology and self identification in society... well yeah you fall into a stereotype. I’ll give you an example when it comes to immigration (because the people above talked about it)
> 
> When it comes to immigration, there should be no people illegally in the country plain and simple. Not because we want to be cruel and kick people out, but rather because they are in the country illegally. If they want to get in through legal means I have no objections so long as the country can support the immigration, for example; if there are a lot of jobs available, there is room for growth, and people coming into the country can contribute in some way shape or form. Its a good thing to have people who have multiple viewpoints in, especially when it comes to science and technology as it helps advance those fields. So to a degree you want people to be coming in, especially ones who are educated and know the language.
> 
> ...


Uh. No. Dreamers, as they're called, were brought here by their parents. They are practically American because this is all they know. However Republicans want to kick them out because they are technically illegal. There is no middle ground. They deserve to stay. End of discussion.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Uh. No. Dreamers, as they're called, were brought here by their parents. They are practically American because this is all they know. However Republicans want to kick them out because they are technically illegal. There is no middle ground. They deserve to stay. End of discussion.



Read what I wrote


Astusthefox said:


> However I can say the way the republicans are handling it, by removing people who have families or have been here for a long time, *by trying to get rid of DACA or whatever it is... and other things of that nature is not the right way to go about it*.



You cannot just stop giving aid to people who are American citizens who need the help, since the “Dreamers” are citizens as they were born in the country.

Edit: the only issue i could see is if people were brought to the country as children and weren’t actually born here. Not sure if that qualifies them as dreamers or not... if the parent brought them in illegally its the parents fault for breaking the laws, their children will suffer for their mistakes. If parents can bring children into the country and they will automatically have benefits, that’s an extremely easy and manipulative way to get people into the country which takes advantage of taxpayer dollars. It’s not right to the people of the country, taking the interests of the citizens of another country before the needs to their actual citizens.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> Read what I wrote
> 
> 
> You cannot just stop giving aid to people who are American citizens who need the help, since the “Dreamers” are citizens as they were born in the country.


Dreamers were not born here. They were brought at a very young age by their parents. So they are technically illegal.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> Read what I wrote
> 
> 
> You cannot just stop giving aid to people who are American citizens who need the help, since the “Dreamers” are citizens as they were born in the country.
> ...


So many heartless bastards nowadays.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

By the way, a compromise the Democrats tried was to give Dreamers a path toward citizenship. But the Republicans refused that. They want them gone.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Dreamers were not born here. They were brought at a very young age by their parents. So they are technically illegal.





Ovi the Dragon said:


> So many heartless bastards nowadays.




as I edited above, there are some issues with that. In my heart of hearts I would like something to be done to help them, and in the case of current “dreamers” legislation was made to assist them, so it should continue to do so. However with new “dreamers” I feel they should be removed from the country with their parents if they come illegally. A legal means to enter the country is available to people, coming over illegally causes issues all around. 

I currently pay more than 20% on income taxes making about 9k gross pay a year, working nearly 30 hours every week. I can barely pay for my food, tuition, and vehicle with assistance from my parents who are behind in paying taxes and cannot afford to have health insurance because they have no money. If I could afford to help other people I would. I cannot afford to do it, and the same goes for most of the other people in the US. The needs of ones own country comes first; its the purpose of putting a country together and living in society; safety in numbers and protecting the livelihood and welfare of the nations citizens. That’s why land boundaries exist, why governments aren’t connected, why we have armies and welfare, and why we pay taxes to our country. 

So again, as much as I’d like to help everyone, I cannot. Hell if I knew i could get away with entering another country and getting free stuff without doing anything I would go there as fast as I could, which is what most people who fly over here on a visa and know they’re going to stay past it’s expiration probably expect they can do, while it drains the pockets of the people who live and support the country they’re leeching off of. Not to say that everyone who comes over is like that, but still.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> By the way, a compromise the Democrats tried was to give Dreamers a path toward citizenship. But the Republicans refused that. They want them gone.


 
Yes, they should offer these dreamers a path towards citizenship, obviously that’s the right way to go and it’s the most ethical considering the circumstances


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> as I edited above, there are some issues with that. In my heart of hearts I would like something to be done to help them, and in the case of current “dreamers” legislation was made to assist them, so it should continue to do so. However with new “dreamers” I feel they should be removed from the country with their parents if they come illegally. A legal means to enter the country is available to people, coming over illegally causes issues all around.
> 
> I currently pay more than 20% on income taxes making about 9k gross pay a year, working nearly 30 hours every week. I can barely pay for my food, tuition, and vehicle with assistance from my parents who are behind in paying taxes and cannot afford to have health insurance because they have no money. If I could afford to help other people I would. I cannot afford to do it, and the same goes for most of the other people in the US. The needs of ones own country comes first; its the purpose of putting a country together and living in society; safety in numbers and protecting the livelihood and welfare of the nations citizens. That’s why land boundaries exist, why governments aren’t connected, why we have armies and welfare, and why we pay taxes to our country.
> 
> So again, as much as I’d like to help everyone, I cannot. Hell if I knew i could get away with entering another country and getting free stuff without doing anything I would go there as fast as I could, which is what most people who fly over here on a visa and know they’re going to stay past it’s expiration probably expect they can do, while it drains the pockets of the people who live and support the country they’re leeching off of. Not to say that everyone who comes over is like that, but still.


Heartless bastard. Your the type who'll burn in hell one day. Let me ask you, what should happen to Dreamers who have been here since they were kids and are now adults? They pay taxes because they want to stay and aren't getting shit for free like Republicans say. Should they just be thrown into a country they know nothing about? An adult with no home, no family, nothing. The only life they have is here.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Heartless bastard. Your the type who'll burn in hell one day. Let me ask you, what should happen to Dreamers who have been here since they were kids and are now adults? They pay taxes because they want to stay and aren't getting shit for free like Republicans say. Should they just be thrown into a country they know nothing about? An adult with no home, no family, nothing. The only life they have is here.



If you read what I write you'll find that I said they shouldn't be thrown out >.> they pay taxes and contribute, therefore they are good ~ by the sound of it they also have social security numbers because to file taxes you need one... so they'e citizens too.

Edit : Also, ad homenin fallacies (like insulting people or such) are not a good way to intellectually discuss something. If you want to discuss something, take the other persons reasons and prove them wrong through reasoning of your own. You basically just agreed with what I wrote above about people who have already been here.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> If you read what I write you'll find that I said they shouldn't be thrown out >.> they pay taxes and contribute, therefore they are good ~ by the sound of it they also have social security numbers because to file taxes you need one... so they'e citizens too.


How about you do what most people should do instead of regurgitating whatever they hear, look up DACA and the Dreamers.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

RakshaTheCat said:


> As long as you wear a good fursuit to that office, you have my vote >;3


You bet your ass I will!

I will buy and commission a proper fursuit of my Fursona. And wear it once a week or once a month.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> How about you do what most people should do instead of regurgitating whatever they hear, look up DACA and the Dreamers.



Read what I wrote, at first I didn't, then you educated me and I corrected myself in the second post. I know what the plan does for people, and now I know what dreamers are since you told me and I responded. If you have an issue with what I said and want me to understand where you are coming from, prove me wrong by talking about how my logic is flawed; I'll make it easy for you on this subject of immigration 


People who have been on DACA or are nationalized, pay taxes, or are citizens, are all good and shouldn't be deported 

People who come to the country in the future illegally with children should be deported along with their parents, who shouldn't have brought them into the country illegally. In the US people become naturally nationalized after a certain amount of time and become amount citizen, so there there isn't an issue with that. 

And of course the first thing I said before all of that, is that the two party system encourages people to adhere to specifically social ideologies and argue with anyone who doesn't agree with them simply to validate their self image (a sociology concept), while the government does stuff behind their back. Which is why the shut down and other things like the immigration acts are happening in the first place.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Dreamers = Sons and daughters of illegal immigrants. The status of their parents directly affect them, whether we like it or not.

An illegal is an illegal, no matter who or what they are, or where they are from or the reason behind them emigrating illegally. However, I do want to find a solution for the Dreamers who DO contribute to the country and are good citizens. The ones who are on welfare, criminals, etc, ought to get kicked out.

America is a country of immigrants, but it's also a country of laws. And if you don't follow the laws, there are consequences.

But again, the DACA members who are good citizens I want to find a solution for. Perhaps a temp visa so they can have some time to get a permanent one.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Sometimes furries here make me lose more and more hope in humanity.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

@Yakamaru @Astusthefox, I'm just wondering, so let's give a scenario that in Eastern Europe there's a real pizdyec going on, and I made VISA and other document shit, and escape to USA , beacuse Poland has no chances to survive, and there in USA is cool situation already (Keep in mind that it's only my scenario quickly imaginated), and I find a legal job, I pay taxes, speak english fluently (maybe someday...) and other shit that I have to do, but I celebrate polish anniversaries and so on... So in your opinion I shold be deported then? Beacuse I try to figure it out and I don't know anymore...


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Sometimes furries here make me lose more and more hope in humanity.


Let me ask you this: What are we to do with the DACA members who are on welfare? Potentially are criminals? Those who came to the US through the DACA program and are not contributing to the economy?

We are not heartless. We feel for these people. However, America is for actual Americans and legal immigrants. America is not for everyone who wants to come, especially not through illegal means, and DACA that is now gone.

What we can do for these people is to help the country they came from. Get rid of corruption, help the infrastructure and economy, develop transit systems, +++.

@Black Burn If you traveled to and emigrated to America legally you are more than welcome. America have a decent amount of legal Polish immigrants. No one cares about what you celebrate. If you want to celebrate Polish traditions and customs, that is 100% ok with me. Hell, if it's fun I might even join in. 

This is legal immigration. Illegal immigration is literally breaking the law, which is the key difference. You can't run a country on feels, regardless of how much you may feel for people. There are economical, social, infrastructural and other long-term consequences of letting everyone in.


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## 134 (Jan 20, 2018)

What the hell is a Shutdown? Can someone who's american explain this to a german?

@Black Burn come to germany


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Sometimes furries here make me lose more and more hope in humanity.



Instead of just commenting about how other people are below your standards of a morally acceptable being; actually comment on why people should view the subject as you do. Show your reasoning as to why you believe what you do.

Right way to approach an argument like this : "one should always treat people as they would like others to treat themselves and everyone else. By doing that one can usually find what is right and desirable for appropriate behavior in society. Despite the fact it may cause economic problems, we should take these people who are less fortunate into our country and provide for them, as if we were in the same situation, we would hope someone would look out for us".

The wrong way to approach it "you people are horrible for saying that kind of stuff, you are all going to burn in hell and I have lost all faith in humanity".




Black Burn said:


> @Yakamaru @Astusthefox, I'm just wondering, so let's give a scenario that in Eastern Europe there's a real pizdyec going on, and I made VISA and other document shit, and escape to USA , beacuse Poland has no chances to survive, and there in USA is cool situation already (Keep in mind that it's only my scenario quickly imaginated), and I find a legal job, I pay taxes, speak english fluently (maybe someday...) and other shit that I have to do, but I celebrate polish anniversaries and so on... So in your opinion I shold be deported then? Beacuse I try to figure it out and I don't know anymore...



I'm mostly polish, kurwa ;p (obviously I'm not calling you that... I just have been tainted by Americanized polish people >.>) but yeah I know a little Itty bit of polish and my family on my mom's side has only been here for two generations. I really really really like talking and being a part of other cultures, it's fun and awesome for science and such. Just do it legally ;p


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Nimilex said:


> What the hell is a Shutdown? Can someone who's american explain this to a german?
> 
> @Black Burn come to germany



Basically the government hasn't agreed on a budget and they have to "shut down" parts of it until the budget is agreed upon. It's just the minor positions that are usually occupied by everyday people who are now being screwed over because the politicians aren't coming to an agreement on social policies. The Democrats refuse to agree to a budget unless the Republicans give into their demands


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Nimilex said:


> @Black Burn come to germany


You see... there's a problem, I hate learning german language... and if I consider living in another country, I want to speak their native language, beacuse well... I'm the immigrant not this nation..


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## Ramjet (Jan 20, 2018)

Yup pretty clear cut here... Outstanding DACA members should be able to stay and have a clear way to become full fledged citizens...All the others are there parasitically,kick them the fuck out...


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## MetroFox2 (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> You see... there's a problem, I hate learning german language... and if I consider living in another country, I want to speak their native language, beacuse well... I'm the immigrant not this nation..



I kinda feel the same, I'd love to move to Eastern Scandinavia or the Low Countries, but I'm awful when it comes to learning other languages, so I'd dread living over there, let alone studying.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> I'm mostly polish, kurwa ;p (obviously I'm not calling you that... I just have been tainted by Americanized polish people >.>) but yeah I know a little Itty bit of polish and my family on my mom's side has only been here for two generations. I really really really like talking and being a part of other cultures, it's fun and awesome for science and such. Just do it legally ;p





Yakamaru said:


> Let me ask you this: What are we to do with the DACA members who are on welfare? Potentially are criminals? Those who came to the US through the DACA program and are not contributing to the economy?
> 
> We are not heartless. We feel for these people. However, America is for actual Americans and legal immigrants. America is not for everyone who wants to come, especially not through illegal means, and DACA that is now gone.
> 
> ...


1. Good to know
2. @Astusthefox WHAT DO YOU KURWA MEAN TAINTED?!


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Let me ask you this: What are we to do with the DACA members who are on welfare? Potentially are criminals? Those who came to the US through the DACA program and are not contributing to the economy?
> 
> We are not heartless. We feel for these people. However, America is for actual Americans and legal immigrants. America is not for everyone who wants to come, especially not through illegal means, and DACA that is now gone.
> 
> ...


What if someone needs to leave immediately because they are in a bad sutuation? Sometimes you can't wait for the red tape to let you through. And some people need Welfare if they have problems with them. Legal or illegal immigrant, if you break the law, you are going to be deported. And not everyone can contribute to the economy just yet. Like let's say a kid who is currently going to school and can't get a job.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

To be honest I partly support @Ovi the Dragon and partly support his opposition...


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> To be honest I partly support @Ovi the Dragon and partly support his opposition...


Thanks. I mean imagine needing to leave your country right now because bad shit is going down and you flee to a country beside you, but they want to kick you out because you didn't go through all the steps to get "legal" immigration.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Thanks. I mean imagine needing to leave your country right now because bad shit is going down and you flee to a country beside you, but they want to kick you out because you didn't go through all the steps to get "legal" immigration.


But I support also them beacuse, every goverement should look at the business of their citizens, not others in the first place, well it's politics... There are no place for feelings... (With this their own citizens Polisjh politics don't know it probably, beacuse they are just sellouts for me)


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> But I support also them beacuse, every goverement should look at the business of their citizens, not others in the first place, well it's politics... There are no place for feelings... (With this their own citizens Polisjh politics don't know it probably, beacuse they are just sellouts for me)


So you'd rather just let them throw you back into your country which is having bad shit go down?


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Whatif someone needs to leave immediately because they are in a bad sutuation? Sometimes you can't wait for the red tape to let you through. And some people need Welfare if they have problems with them. Legal or illegal immigrant, if you break the law, you are going to be deported. And not everyone can contribute to the economy just yet. Like let's say a kid who is currently going to school and can't get a job.


Nope. If you are legal you won't get deported. The law can't touch you, hence why it's called *legal* immigration,

You coming to a country and breaking the law by skipping the line because your situation is bad is no excuse. You can't skip the line because your personal situation is shit. That is you being an egotistical twat, and you are being an asshole to everyone else who are already in queue in front of you.

www.us-immigration.com: US Naturalization and Immigration, Citizenship Application, US Visas

America is not a country you can just travel to and think you can do whatever you want, even breaking the law. A lot of people's situation is shit. You are not unique in that regard, far from it. A country's duty is to take care of its own first. Have resources, space, housing, jobs, +++ to spare? Borders are open to those who follow the procedures and criteria, no matter what those criteria may be.

If you stop enforcing the law you will end up with anarchy and chaos. If we had infinite resources on the planet I would agree with you. We should share in our riches, and help develop other under-developed countries. But unfortunately, resources are not infinite.

We have infinite compassion, but finite resources. 

Question though: Why should people come to America instead of fixing the shit going down in their countries? It will in the long-term make things a LOT worse.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> So you'd rather just let them throw you back into your country which is having bad shit go down?


Well, it's not my country, I don't make rules here, if they would give me a chance, ok, if not, well... I will not enforce on the other country anything...


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Nope. If you are legal you won't get deported. The law can't touch you, hence why it's called *legal* immigration,
> 
> You coming to a country and breaking the law by skipping the line because your situation is bad is no excuse. You can't skip the line because your personal situation is shit. That is you being an egotistical twat, and you are being an asshole to everyone else who are already in queue in front of you.
> 
> ...


Actually yes. If you are a legal immigrant and you break the law you can be deported. And you forget America is like the richest country on Earth. :/ We have a lot of stuff to spare.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Actually yes. If you are a legal immigrant and you break the law you can be deported. And you forget America is like the richest country on Earth. :/ We have a lot of stuff to spare.


I would recommend you check this video on the topic.

It's 6 minutes long, and take on the issue of legal immigration.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I would recommend you check this video on the topic.
> 
> It's 6 minutes long, and take on the issue of legal immigration.


I swear only Conservatives use stupid things like food items to prove their point. And this guy is making it seem like we're just flooded with immigrants. Uh. No. Plenty of people stay in their home countries. However some people need help and the US can provide it.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I swear only Conservatives use stupid things like food items to prove their point. And this guy is making it seem like we're just flooded with immigrants. Uh. No. Plenty of people stay in their home countries. However some people need help and the US can provide it.


The video takes on the *realistic* consequences of immigration and the damage it does. Not only in the short-term, but vastly in the long-term as well.

Again: Why not fix the problems in the origin countries? Let all of them come to America? And forever let their origin countries stay shitholes? What about the people who can't emigrate? They will be forever stuck there.

And ideal will often clash with reality, and what is realistically possible. Immigration is one such ideal that do more harm than good.

TL;DR: Help the people in their original country to get it back on its feet.


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## Stealtheart (Jan 20, 2018)

Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Also what are you talking about? The number of immigrants is huge in this country. At the current rate they're coming in most people living in the country will be foreigners who speak Spanish or an Asian language.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> The video takes on the *realistic* consequences of immigration and the damage it does. Not only in the short-term, but vastly in the long-term as well.
> 
> Again: Why not fix the problems in the origin countries? Let all of them come to America? And forever let their origin countries stay shitholes? What about the people who can't emigrate? They will be forever stuck there.
> 
> And ideal will often clash with reality, and what is realistically possible. Immigration is one such ideal that do more harm than good.


I don't know about you but for some people their family is more important than their country. Is it selfish to want a better life for your child? I don't think it is. The people who need help should get it. It's so easy to not care about others when you are rich and happy. And this guy is making it seem like legal immigration is bad too.



Stealtheart said:


> Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Also what are you talking about? The number of immigrants is huge in this country. At the current rate they're coming in most people living in the country will be foreigners who speak Spanish or an Asian language.


Now that's just flatout wrong lol


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## Ramjet (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I would recommend you check this video on the topic.
> 
> It's 6 minutes long, and take on the issue of legal immigration.




Thanks for that video Yak...Never seen it so clearly explained for everyone to understand...


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

I agree with @Yakamaru, I don't want to run from my country, I just want to be ready for the worst... for the situation where I just can't do anything, but in Poland now we need new normal politicians and gooooood reefooorms (What is Utopia for me) or a coup but when we have a coup I'm wondering what NATO forces will do to this coup... But I'll not fight for this politicians in this shitty military we have now, I rather fight the whole NATO forces with a kitchen knife than in our military...


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I don't know about you but for some people their family is more important than their country. Is it selfish to want a better life for your child? I don't think it is. The people who need help should get it. It's so easy to not care about others when you are rich and happy. And this guy is making it seem like legal immigration is bad too.


Mate, believe me. I feel for these people. Emotionally I 100% agree with you. But we can't help a couple hundred thousand a year and let billions others starve and live in poverty and being homeless, and the situation in their home countries circling down the drain by the people who actually can make it a better place emigrate somewhere else.

The best way for everyone is to raise the infrastructure to the level of a Western country. That way there is no need for them to emigrate to a different country. There are plenty of jobs, resources and space to live in their own country.

You don't solve these problems by letting literally everyone else into countries that are well off. You don't have the infrastructure, resources, space let alone the economy to do it. It's not realistically possible, and will cause a total collapse, both economically, and socially. The country they emigrate to will be just as much a shithole as the country they emigrated from.

You can't run a country let alone immigration policies on feelings.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ramjet556 said:


> Thanks for that video Yak...Never seen it so clearly explained for everyone to understand...


There's a full version, but that one takes on the idea of immigration.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Mate, believe me. I feel for these people. Emotionally I 100% agree with you. But we can't help a couple hundred thousand a year and let billions others starve and live in poverty and being homeless, and the situation in their home countries circling down the drain by the people who actually can make it a better place emigrate somewhere else.
> 
> The best way for everyone is to raise the infrastructure to the level of a Western country. That way there is no need for them to emigrate to a different country. There are plenty of jobs, resources and space to live in their own country.
> 
> You don't solve these problems by letting literally everyone else into countries that are well off. You don't have the infrastructure, resources, space let alone the economy to do it. It's not realistically possible, and will cause a total collapse, both economically, and socially. The country they emigrate to will be just as much a shithole as the country they emigrated from.


Damn you conservatives sure like to make everything apocolyptic. And what do you want people to do? Waste their whole lives trying to make their country better and failing? What about parents who want better lives for theor children? There are plenty of people in poor countries to replace those who leave. If you notice the trends when it comes to population, a poor country tends to have more babies than those of rich countries. I'm done arguing about this though. I've got a throbbing headache and this is not helping.


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Now that's just flatout wrong lol



No its not, not when we have homeless vets and children who's only meal is what they get at school.  I'm sorry but sometimes you have to remove a leg to save a life.


And before you say anything, one of my best friends took the time DACA gave him to become legalized.  It took 4 years.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> No its not, not when we have homeless vets and children who's only meal is what they get at school.  I'm sorry but sometimes you have to remove a leg to save a life.
> 
> 
> And before you say anything, one of my best friends took the time DACA gave him to become legalized.  It took 4 years.


Oh yes the "I have a friend whose black so I'm right." argument. That needs to have it's own logical fallacy.  And yes it is wrong. The amount of Americans far outweighs the amount of immigrants and the rate they come in. Seriously though I'm done with this thread. It's just a bunch of conservatives jacking off each others' political cocks.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Oh yes the "I have a friend whose black so I'm right." argument. That needs to have it's own logical fallacy.  And yes it is wrong. The amount of Americans far outweighs the amount of immigrants and the rate they come in. Seriously though I'm done with this thread. It's just a bunch of conservatives jacking off each others' political cocks.


Man, calm down, if someone have other opinion and gives you arguments, you should give counter-arguments, not offend him...


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Damn you conservatives sure like to make everything apocolyptic. And what do you want people to do? Waste their whole lives trying to make their country better and failing? What about parents who want better lives for theor children? There are plenty of people in poor countries to replace those who leave. If you notice the trends when it comes to population, a poor country tends to have more babies than those of rich countries. I'm done arguing about this though. I've got a throbbing headache and this is not helping.


I am a Centrist. I would recommend you stop labeling anyone who disagrees with you a Conservative, as if it's some sort of insult and give you the right to dismiss anything I say. And you are not listening to what I am saying, nor are you understanding it.

So, you want to let everyone else who can't come to America starve and die? Let their situation get more and more shitty every year? Because that is what you are suggesting here with letting everyone who want to come, can come. You don't solve anything with mass immigration. If every country was like America we wouldn't even NEED immigration.

You don't solve problems in a country by taking the intelligent ones, the ones who can and will solve problems. It will make it worse every year.

Want an example? South Africa.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Man, calm down, if someone have other opinion and gives you arguments, you should give counter-arguments, not offend him...


Man I live in Oklahoma. I hear racists use that stupid "I have a black friend so I can say that" shit all the time. I'm just saying it doesn't matter what one guy's friend did.



Yakamaru said:


> I am a Centrist. I would recommend you stop labeling anyone who disagrees with you a Conservative, as if it's some sort of insult and give you the right to dismiss anything I say. And you are not listening to what I am saying, nor are you understanding it.
> 
> So, you want to let everyone else who can't come to America starve and die? Let their situation get more and more shitty every year? Because that is what you are suggesting here with letting everyone who want to come, can come. You don't solve anything with mass immigration. If every country was like America we wouldn't even NEED immigration.
> 
> ...


Actually your stance on immigration is rather conservative.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> The amount of Americans far outweighs the amount of immigrants and the rate they come in. Seriously though I'm done with this thread. It's just a bunch of conservatives jacking off each others' political cocks


@Ovi the Dragon, I mean this comrade...


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Jeeez like arguing with Pole that supports PiS or PO... but he instead will cal you nazi or communist or just leftist...


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> @Ovi the Dragon, I mean this comrade...


Ah. Well I mean it is. Everyone's like "oh yeah you're right". "Yeah he's right." "You're wrong. Everyone else here is right."


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Ah. Well I mean it is. Everyone's like "oh yeah you're right". "Yeah he's right." "You're wrong. Everyone else here is right."


I partly understand you, beacuse I mostly hate conservatives in my country...


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## Junkerfox (Jan 20, 2018)

Oh no! Shutdown Shumer and his group of angry old folks threw a tantrum and shutdown Washington. Whatever shall I do?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

For real though I'm gonna stop responding to this thread. My headache is killing me. Have fun wanking tho.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Junkerfox said:


> Oh no! Shutdown Shumer and his group of angry old folks threw a tantrum and shutdown Washington. Whatever shall I do?


COUP D'ETAT


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## Junkerfox (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> COUP D'ETAT


Nah. I like Trump. Its the establishment parties I hate with a passion


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## chuckles_da_wolf (Jan 20, 2018)

A very good friend of mines highly decorated Air Force grandfather passed away this morning, due to the government shut down he won’t recieve the military burial with full honors he is entitled to


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Actually your stance on immigration is rather conservative.


Yes. Yes it is. It's called taking care of your own first. Foreigners are second. I will not sacrifice the well-being of my next of kin for someone who may not even be compatible with our way of living. I don't want people in my country who don't contribute and/or positively affect the social and/or economical aspects.

Your feelings does not trump the rule of law, even if I agree on this aspect, wanting to help people. Want to help everyone? Fix the problems in the origin country.

I would recommend you study basic economics and learn some about human nature. It will at least help you understand why I have such a stance on immigration, like the vast majority of other people do.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Junkerfox said:


> Nah. I like Trump. Its the establishment parties I hate with all of Hell's fury


SO COUP D'ETAT THAT WILL SUPRESS TRUMP'S OPPOSITION BLYAT


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## Stealtheart (Jan 20, 2018)

How are facts wrong? You're claiming anyone who's disagreeing with you is making stuff up to support their views, but you're trying to discredit facts because they don't agree with your view. Stop throwing labels around too, doesn't really help your point just makes you look aggressive and egotistical.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

chuckles_da_wolf said:


> A very good friend of mines highly decorated Air Force grandfather passed away this morning, due to the government shut down he won’t recieve the military burial with full honors he is entitled to


And I feel for him, I truly do.

Fuckers in government can't stop acting like a bunch of whiny kids because they didn't get it their way. It's utterly pathetic to watch how entitled government officials and politicians have become.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> And I feel for him, I truly do.
> 
> Fuckers in government can't stop acting like a bunch of whiny kids because they didn't get it their way. It's utterly pathetic to watch how entitled government officials and politicians have become.


It's not only happening in your country... trust me...


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> One personal attack by you today was enough!  DON'T YOU EVER DARE LUMP ME INTO A GROUP WITH KNOWING ME PERSONAL.
> 
> I'm here saying the system is broken and needs to be fixed.  4 years is way to long to become a citizen.  How is that right?  And its not just person, I can name 100's.


I've seen the argument used a million times before. Please cry about it. It's not like anyone should care for you when you don't care for others. Now I'm actually leaving this thread. Stahp quoting me because you won't get an answer next time.


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## Stealtheart (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I've seen the argument used a million times before. Please cry about it. It's not like anyone should care for you when you don't care for others. Now I'm actually leaving this thread. Stahp quoting me because you won't get an answer next time.


You've said that three times now, but you still replying.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> It's not only happening in your country... trust me...


I know. Politicians all over are becoming entitled, having lived like this for perhaps decades. 

Career politicians are very often pure cancer because they are engraved in their own beliefs, ending up with tribalism inside the government.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I know. Politicians all over are becoming entitled, having lived like this for perhaps decades.
> 
> Career politicians are very often pure cancer because they are engraved in their own beliefs, ending up with tribalism inside the government.


Beacuse they do it for money... They choose it as their job...


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Beacuse they do it for money... They choose it as their job...


There is usually always money involved. Take that away and have people who actually listen to the people and boom, you have yourself an accountable and responsible government. 

I don't know much about the Polish government so I will refrain to comment on it.


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> There is usually always money involved. Take that away and have people who actually listen to the people and boom, you have yourself an accountable and responsible government.
> 
> I don't know much about the Polish government so I will refrain to comment on it.


Well, the best leaders are those who wants really to do something, for an example Pilsudski, he was a soldier, he sometimes formed polish army for an example in WW1, he tried to give autonomy for Poland, but in 1917 he has ordered to don't fight for anyone, they were waiting, and after 1919 we had democracy... our politics were easy to sellout, they were taking bribes from everyone... What Pilsudski did? He said that "In our goverement we have only thiefs and bitches" (He wasn't soft speaker), and he did a coup, and people were happy when he came to power, people just seen this corruption, and he maybe was a tyrant sometimes, beacuse he could lock his opposition without court judgment, but he fucking helped this country to get up, under his command we have stopped the Bolsheviks in 1920, when he died to power came Rydz Śmigły that was an idiot and by this idiot we lost war in 1,5 weeks....


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

So for me real leaders don't even know that they will be those leaders...


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## HuskyLover101 (Jan 20, 2018)

Nothing new, this happened what, about 5 years ago? I recall that lasting about a week or two. I remember being thrilled about going ATV riding with a bud on USFS land and not being harassed by tree fairies (Nitpicky Forest Rangers) about my loud pipes! I wasn't mentally mature enough at the time to give a rats ass about the actual impact of the shutdown like I am now, though.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Well, the best leaders are those who wants really to do something, for an example Pilsudski, he was a soldier, he sometimes formed polish army for an example in WW1, he tried to give autonomy for Poland, but in 1917 he has ordered to don't fight for anyone, they were waiting, and after 1919 we had democracy... our politics were easy to sellout, they were taking bribes from everyone... What Pilsudski did? He said that "In our goverement we have only thiefs and bitches" (He wasn't soft speaker), and he did a coup, and people were happy when he came to power, people just seen this corruption, and he maybe was a tyrant sometimes, beacuse he could lock his opposition without court judgment, but he fucking helped this country to get up, under his command we have stopped the Bolsheviks in 1920, when he died to power came Rydz Śmigły that was an idiot and by this idiot we lost war in 1,5 weeks....



Its common knowledge that people in positions of power will, typically, eventually begin to use that power for their own selfish means. Example of that is the Standford Prison Experiment, which if you haven’t heard of it, essentially they took average ordinary people and made a prison scenario where some were prisoners and others were guards. The guards eventually began to abuse their power and the leader of the study thought himself to be the warden... it was a mess... 

regardless, those that enter the government usually need to have money to begin with, to obviously fund the campaign costs and be known to the people. In NJ one has to raise 10k (or 100k I forget >.>) to even make it onto the ballet. It’s obvious at least that the US is a plutocracy, but for you I imagine in Poland that your politics are influenced a lot by outside money coming in; and therefore your countries interests will not be focused on by the incoming government. I imagine being the ruler of a country is much more difficult than one could imagine... Having read books like the art of war, the prince, and books dealing with ethics and law like Leviathan, On the duty of man and citizen, and the metaphysical elements of ethics (fricken Kant and the way he words things >.>), Things in life are a lot more difficult and different than what most people believe them to be.


the irony of all of this thread and political ideology is that I constantly have arguments with my BF about this kind of stuff, and in that case im the “leftist communist”. Both he and I consider ourselves practitioners of liberalism, but on a political compass I’m more towards globalism and he’s closer to true liberalism on the individual side. 




HuskyLover101 said:


> Nothing new, this happened what, about 5 years ago? I recall that lasting about a week or two. I remember being thrilled about going ATV riding with a bud on USFS land and not being harassed by tree fairies (Nitpicky Forest Rangers) about my loud pipes! I wasn't mentally mature enough at the time to give a rats ass about the actual impact of the shutdown like I am now, though.




Yeah it isn’t anything new or anything to be concerned about. Republicans did the same thing to Obama in the past because they didn’t like something about the ACA or something stupid. It’s just a way to make a bigger deal of things than needs to be done and in the process hurt everyday people who rely on their government jobs for a living, as they wont be getting paid


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> Its common knowledge that people in positions of power will, typically, eventually begin to use that power for their own selfish means. Example of that is the Standford Prison Experiment, which if you haven’t heard of it, essentially they took average ordinary people and made a prison scenario where some were prisoners and others were guards. The guards eventually began to abuse their power and the leader of the study thought himself to be the warden... it was a mess...
> 
> regardless, those that enter the government usually need to have money to begin with, to obviously fund the campaign costs and be known to the people. In NJ one has to raise 10k (or 100k I forget >.>) to even make it onto the ballet. It’s obvious at least that the US is a plutocracy, but for you I imagine in Poland that your politics are influenced a lot by outside money coming in; and therefore your countries interests will not be focused on by the incoming government. I imagine being the ruler of a country is much more difficult than one could imagine... Having read books like the art of war, the prince, and books dealing with ethics and law like Leviathan, On the duty of man and citizen, and the metaphysical elements of ethics (fricken Kant and the way he words things >.>), Things in life are a lot more difficult and different than what most people believe them to be.
> 
> ...


1. I'm mostly globalist too (Maybe my patriotism is sometimes thst big that I look like a nationalist but I'm globalist"
2. For me it still don't judge our politicians


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## Black Burn (Jan 20, 2018)

Ok so this conversation on this thread was thst good that I stayed to 3:34AM, but now it's time for some, sleep, dobranoc


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> the irony of all of this thread and political ideology is that I constantly have arguments with my BF about this kind of stuff, and in that case im the “leftist communist”. Both he and I consider ourselves practitioners of liberalism, but on a political compass I’m more towards globalism and he’s closer to true liberalism on the individual side.


What? You have a partner with different beliefs? I know of a couple of people who would freak out about this fact.


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> So what? Do you think the children of people who came here illegally should be thrown out? They're basically Americans. This is the only country they've ever know.


Happens in france. Uk Germany. Poland Australia, etc. Hell, some nations throw you prison for being there illegally.  Hell canada was throwing americans back over the border instantly when trump got elected. Entering a country illegally... is *LE GASP* :O Illegal!?

This is the only nation that has the anchor baby laws which were in place to make slaves citizens back when the whole deal with down with the chaos and turmoil after the shit show that was slavery ended.

using children to tug on heart strings is a common political tactic.

If you're here illegally.

_YOU'RE HERE ILLEGALLY
_
Plain as fact. You have people who go through the loops and races to be able to buy a ticket to the movie, yet you have people who just sneak in through the emergency exit going. OH YEAH WE HAVE A RIGHT TO SEE THIS MOVIE! *crosses arm*

No. I am sorry. 

Get in line. Or we're calling the cops.

I have no problems with legal immigration. Its this  bullshit with illegal immigration that causes people to jump and skip steps due to being illegal.

There's nothing else like it. It's so absurd.

Its posed as a human rights issue when really its plain as day. You.. broke the law. Your parents broke the law. Sorry.

But if your father is a hitter who gets sent to prison and you helped him bury a body and you're going with.. You can't go "Its the only life I knew" Trust me. I have friends who went to prison because it was the "Only life" they knew. Its a straw man argument.

Call me a heartless bastard, but they don't give two shits about human rights or anything. All they care about is using "Dreamers" (which I think is a really stupid name btw. Can I just state that on digital pixels?) and illegals as a way to keep votes. Its what they did in the numerous ghettos throughout history and its even how they pinned the Irish versus the African American communities in places like New York. Then the Italians and etc, and etc.

Thats also why they're pushing to illegals a legal way to vote because Guess which side of the fence they'd vote for!?

This whole concept is absurd. No other country goes "Well you broke the law. You're here illegally. But since you look like a nice person we'll let you pass."

No. France would throw you out of the country. Canada would throw you out. Australia would throw you out. UK would throw you and have YOU pay for it.


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## Astus (Jan 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> What? You have a partner with different beliefs? I know of a couple of people who would freak out about this fact.



It can be difficult at times, but they’ve got their heart in the right place and that’s what matters. It also keeps things interesting to say the least.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 20, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> It can be difficult at times, but they’ve got their heart in the right place and that’s what matters. It also keeps things interesting to say the least.


Relationship/love>Politics.

Actually, fuck politics in that case. 

And recently.. I think I know this all too well..


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 20, 2018)

Nimilex said:


> What the hell is a Shutdown? Can someone who's american explain this to a german?
> 
> @Black Burn come to germany



It's when people who don't possess the intellectual maturity level past 5th grade try to run an entire country.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 20, 2018)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> Happens in france. Uk Germany. Poland Australia, etc. Hell, some nations throw you prison for being there illegally.  Hell canada was throwing americans back over the border instantly when trump got elected. Entering a country illegally... is *LE GASP* :O Illegal!?
> 
> This is the only nation that has the anchor baby laws which were in place to make slaves citizens back when the whole deal with down with the chaos and turmoil after the shit show that was slavery ended.
> 
> ...



Ok, when you get Yaka to start liking your posts, you're officially out of line in my book. 

What other countries do has absolutely no bearing on what we do. None. It's called the ad populum logical fallacy. It means, "because they're doing it, we can do it too." It doesn't matter. None of those other countries were BASED on the fundamental idea of mass immigration and the pursuit of a better life than could be found in their own country. 

And you know what? Most Americans past 4th generation are lazy, complicit barbaric slobs because of how much material wealth we have. If our incomes aren't constantly soaring, we bitch about everything. Reality is that if one tries hard enough, one can generally get ahead in life. 

Sending dreamers back to their country is essentially a downright human rights violation. They are for all intents and purposes, de facto Americans. 

And yeah. The Dreamers will probably all vote Democrat. I don't care. I'd love to see the Republican Party crash and burn to the ground.


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> And yeah. The Dreamers will probably all vote Democrat. I don't care. I'd love to see the Republican Party crash and burn to the ground.


Yes then we'd get one party communist system that will surely put the benefits of all humanity and the working class above the elites who rule it.

"OI SATELLITE NATIONS AM I RIGHT? HOW DID THE CCCP TREAT YOU GUYS?"







But in all seriousness...

But as you said in a private message this is something I agree is a good way to handle it.

"I'd be all right with givin then visas and giving them like 5 years to apply for citizenship and stuff."

I would be okay with that. That's a way that allows the system to self correct, as well as giving THEM control of their own fate and not the two options of the polarization. 

"GIVE EVERYBODY WHO HAS A PULSE AND CAN CLIMB A FENCE A GREEEEEEN CARD" *twirls around throwing flowers*

And

"THROW OUT ALL WHO LOOK LIKE THEY DON'T BELONG" *spits in pot* 

How about we tone it down and look at this in a calm manner.

Also don't call them fucking dreamers. That just makes my skin crawl. For the wrath of the gods don't call them that. That sounds so watery eye and idiotic.  Hearing that makes me wish that odin's ravens would come and peck out the centre of ears so I don't have to hear that.

I have no quarrels with legal immigration. In fact I think our legal immigration system does need a reform as you have people who have more stable incomes and better track records than citizens here who are fucked over for some reason. Oh right due to political agendas of both parties picking and choosing who they want due to exploitation.


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## Astus (Jan 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Ok, when you get Yaka to start liking your posts, you're officially out of line in my book.
> 
> What other countries do has absolutely no bearing on what we do. None. It's called the ad populum logical fallacy. It means, "because they're doing it, we can do it too." It doesn't matter. None of those other countries were BASED on the fundamental idea of mass immigration and the pursuit of a better life than could be found in their own country.
> 
> ...



I don’t want to speak for other people, so I will speak for myself here and maybe they will agree as well... or whatever...

Immigration in itself is a difficult policy to tackle... I’m going to first discuss immigration itself then talk about the dreamers just so I don’t make it a tl;dr thing... 

A country in itself is a closed boundary which holds a set of laws and customs for a group of people within it’s borders it calls it’s citizens. Those are individuals who either were born on the “soil” that makes up the country, or ones who have traveled to the country for whatever reason it is. Every single person who enters the country therefore abides by their laws which in themselves should be obviosuly very clear for people who live there, to be aware of in order to preserve order and civility of the nation. The whole entire purpose of those laws is to keep the people of the nation safe from outside invaders, or the hazards of the world outside the borders. How they do that of course is different in every country... in ours we have democrats and republicans who argue all the time about it... as we can see.... anyways, people who come into our country to any degree have to abide by our laws, in the US customs/culutre is a completely different story because we embrace that kind of thing it doesn’t matter all that much... but the people coming in have to abide by our laws. The US currently has immigration laws in place to prevent these possible things from happening (these only to my knowledge, im not sure if there are more or what purpose they serve). 

FIrstly we have to control immigration (when it comes to making citizens) so that mainly, there is a very small amount of unemployment in unskilled labour. This ensures that younger people or those who do not have sufficient education can work in order to start saving or acquiring money, and those who come into the country as unskilled labour have a job to go to so they don’t ride the tax dollars into the dirt if they need welfare. Secondly, laws are in place to keep individuals who can potentially be harmful to the country, out of it. These laws apply to criminals in other countries who may be denied entry or citizenship if they have past felonies; not out of bias but rather protection of ones citizens. Thirdly, infrastructure needs to be matched up with the amount of incoming immigrants as well due to the fact well... everyone needs a place to sleep. Because people are constantly having children in our country, the estimated amount of people that can come in is determined ahead of time, and from there the immigration teams select the best of the best to come in to help boost the state of the country. This means people like doctors, scientists, and the such are much more likely to become citizens in our country as opposed to someone living in rural Siberia or whatever. It’s literally, if you want to think of it like this, selfishness so that the country increases its productivity and cultural/scientific output. Its whats right and desirable for the people of the US. Does that mean others won’t get citizenship? Of course not, they potentially can... the issue is if they can make the cut or not. 

When it comes to people who have been in the country for the majority of their life, I mean quite obviously they become naturalized after... IDK i think it was 5 years last time I checked >.> So these children who came in and are now adults/in college are US citizens and contribute to paying taxes, and being an all around awesome and fun to talk to member of society. The republicans in office trying to kick out legal citizens is absolutely outrageous and they should be ashamed of trying to do something like that to naturalized citizens. The issue I believe that everyone else is talking about, is illegal immigrants coming into the country with their children in the short term. Those that haven’t become citizens and came illegally with their parents. Those are the ones who need to be sent back to their home country and come into the country through legal means. There is a reason that laws are in place to prevent mass immigration nowadays, especially with the recent economic recession, overall lack of jobs, and lack of places in which people can actually live. Is it right and just to do that? The country has a job, its only job really, to protect it’s own citizens first and foremost. Immigrants are not on the list of people the country needs to protect, nor are the citizens of other countries on that list. Does that mean you can just ignore when something awful like the things in Syria? No it doesn’t and if the people of the country are willing, there should be help sent to aid others because it is the right thing to do. If however the needs of the country are greater, then obviously your own people come first because how can you help people in the future if you yourself are crippled? 

I personally hope for the day in which people will be able to cross borders freely, no one holds and grudges towards eachother, there is free trade and culutre spread over all the land... but in my heart I know that the thing I want most will likely never happen, due to human nature. We are individuals, not a hive. In our bones we have selfish desires, and it isn’t entirely possible for us as a species to be completely globalist. Its why a true communism would never work, and why nations like the US with its free market capitalistic, representative democracy, tends to do fairly well when it comes to being a nation (compared to others). It’s sad but its a fact of human society that we will never be truly altruistic no matter how hard people try :/ I used to have beliefs that it was possible... but as an old saying somewhat goes... the young person doesn’t believe in communism has no heart; and the old man who doesn’t believe in democracy has no brain. Older people realize through experience that people... are well people... younger people tend to be more idealistic and I do hope again for that day in which people won’t have borders... but until that day a system needs to be in place to protect and help ones own citizens prosper so that maybe one day, they can rise above and be the pillar that supports the rest of the world and leads everyone to greatness.






I ranted again... but as i’ve said in the past... actually responding to what you said at the end there bahg... I personally hope both parties disappear and individuals come forward to actually represent the people, and not some political party that get lobbying money from rich people... 

also I have to agree people bitch a lot about their income... that’s mostly due to traditional values... but there are a lot of people who cannot make ends meet because of things like not having a livable wage, which needs to be fixed... like soon... no one should work two jobs every day of the week and not be able to at least afford health care, housing, food, and a vacation so they don’t do insane


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 21, 2018)

A but O/T but a big issue in this nation is what is called rent burdening.

"HUD defines cost-*burdened* families as those “who pay more than 30 percent of their income for housing” and “may have difficulty affording necessities such as food, clothing, transportation, and medical care.” Severe *rent burden* is defined as paying more than 50 percent of one's income on *rent*."

I know friends who have 80% of their income going out to rent. They have to decide between food or whatever.Granted most of these idiots spend their money on drugs and then bitch about not having food so IDFK.

I still think that our nation has an issue with affordable housing as homes and rental properties have been inflated heavily.  especially in recent times. This doesn't just affect the younger generations but many people in large. Theres many problems domestically i feel need to be solved here before we start opening up our bleeding hearts and going "OHH WE CAN HELP YOU"

When we can't even acknowledge the fact that theres economic problems here. Isn't the UN looking into the poverty in the US or something?


----------



## Mudman2001 (Jan 21, 2018)

First off, I want to apologize for that outburst earlier in this thread.  I've taken the time to cool off a bit before coming back to this.



DarkoKavinsky said:


> When we can't even acknowledge the fact that theres economic problems here. Isn't the UN looking into the poverty in the US or something?



They are and it is almost done.  One of the news shows I caught part of said it is suppose to be out this summer at one of the UN Summits.  Only reason I remember it is they were talking about some of the preliminary findings and what caught my attention was the fact there are people living in area with no running water and proper sewerage (the waste was pooling in peoples yards).


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## Junkerfox (Jan 21, 2018)




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## Ramjet (Jan 21, 2018)

Junkerfox said:


> View attachment 26847



Hahahahaha


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## Black Burn (Jan 21, 2018)




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## ellaerna (Jan 21, 2018)

Junkerfox said:


> View attachment 26847


Long live the queen.


hot damn this thread exploded while I wasn't looking. Maybe take a chill pill, ya'll. I wanted to commiserate about the shutdown, not get into shouting matches about daca


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## Black Burn (Jan 21, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Long live the queen.
> 
> 
> hot damn this thread exploded while I wasn't looking. Maybe take a chill pill, ya'll. I wanted to commiserate about the shutdown, not get into shouting matches about daca


Yeah I was thinking when someone will notice that we are creating multi-threas xD


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 21, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Long live the queen.
> 
> 
> hot damn this thread exploded while I wasn't looking. Maybe take a chill pill, ya'll. I wanted to commiserate about the shutdown, not get into shouting matches about daca


I think its a universal law that all political discussions get redirected into another route via shouting and anger with a few people trying to use logic, while a bunch are screeching like banshees.

Its kind of like the universal law that states if you're looking for something you'll find things you were looking for in the past and thought lost before you find the object you're looking for.


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## Black Burn (Jan 21, 2018)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> I think its a universal law that all political discussions get redirected into another route via shouting and anger with a few people trying to use logic, while a bunch are screeching like banshees.
> 
> Its kind of like the universal law that states if you're looking for something you'll find things you were looking for in the past and thought lost before you find the object you're looking for.


You can't just in political debate stay on one topic


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## ellaerna (Jan 21, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Yeah I was thinking when someone will notice that we are creating multi-threas xD


While I realize that daca is part of the reason for the shutdown, this thread is not solely about daca and immigration and who's stupid and who's Satan based on their beliefs therein. You want to get into? I request you take it elsewhere.

Honestly, with Republicans controlling both the house and the Senate, this should be a non issue. It's dumber than cat shit that 1) they can't come to a consensus on a plan amongst themselves, 2) agree with their damn president, and 3) come up with something that will at least appease some number of moderate democrats so they can have a super majority in the Senate. And if anyone, and I mean ANYONE, is going to use shutdown as a bargaining chip (read: hostage situation) then they need something on hand that they can pass to keep things from going to shit while they get their heads out of their asses.

And Mitch fucking McConnell decided the best time to hold a new vote is 1am est Monday morning. So the people currently out of a paying job won't even know if they need to go into work on Monday the night before. And even if the vote passes, we still need trump to sign it and I wouldn't put money on him being up that late/ early.


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 21, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> While I realize that daca is part of the reason for the shutdown, this thread is not solely about daca and immigration and who's stupid and who's Satan based on their beliefs therein. You want to get into? I request you take it elsewhere.
> 
> Honestly, with Republicans controlling both the house and the Senate, this should be a non issue. It's dumber than cat shit that 1) they can't come to a consensus on a plan amongst themselves, 2) agree with their damn president, and 3) come up with something that will at least appease some number of moderate democrats so they can have a super majority in the Senate. And if anyone, and I mean ANYONE, is going to use shutdown as a bargaining chip (read: hostage situation) then they need something on hand that they can pass to keep things from going to shit while they get their heads out of their asses.
> 
> And Mitch fucking McConnell decided the best time to hold a new vote is 1am est Monday morning. So the people currently out of a paying job won't even know if they need to go into work on Monday the night before. And even if the vote passes, we still need trump to sign it and I wouldn't put money on him being up that late/ early.


The way our political system works. Pass bills in the middle of the night.

Its how we got the federal reserve.

Yeah the government shut down is just a tool for both sides.


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## Saiko (Jan 21, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Honestly, with Republicans controlling both the house and the Senate, this should be a non issue. It's dumber than cat shit that 1) they can't come to a consensus on a plan amongst themselves, 2) agree with their damn president, and 3) come up with something that will at least appease some number of moderate democrats so they can have a super majority in the Senate.


That’s just it though! They had a compromise worked out and ready to go! It even allocated 10% of Trump’s wall funding, which would have kept him on track for funding it in ten years. Trump was the one that rejected the compromise, and now they can’t figure out another because he’s empowered far-right Republicans to make demands the Democrats will never agree to. This is almost entirely Trump’s fault because he couldn’t play nicely.


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## Simo (Jan 21, 2018)

The Republicans control the White House, House and Senate, and are to blame. They are old, and smell like mothballs. They need to go. I'd never yiff a Republican. Yuck.


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 21, 2018)

Stealtheart said:


> Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Also what are you talking about? The number of immigrants is huge in this country. At the current rate they're coming in most people living in the country will be foreigners who speak Spanish or an Asian language.


A large part of what is now the USA used to be Mexico.  Spanish ought to be an official US language already, in the same way the UK has three; English, Welsh and Gaelic.


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## Black Burn (Jan 21, 2018)

Simo said:


> The Republicans control the White House, House and Senate, and are to blame. They are old, and smell like mothballs. They need to go.


Yeah most of older politics in any country are not the best ones in my opinion too...


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## Stealtheart (Jan 21, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> A large part of what is now the USA used to be Mexico.  Spanish ought to be an official US language already, in the same way the UK has three; English, Welsh and Gaelic.


And parts of México used to be part of the Aztec Empire, what's your point?


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## Stealtheart (Jan 21, 2018)

Simo said:


> The Republicans control the White House, House and Senate, and are to blame. They are old, and smell like mothballs. They need to go. I'd never yiff a Republican. Yuck.


The Democratic nominees were old and White too...


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 21, 2018)

Stealtheart said:


> And parts of México used to be part of the Aztec Empire, what's your point?


That the USA shouldn't have this ridiculous hangup about maintaining complete dominance of one imported language (English) over others.

BTW, Nahuatl (the old Aztec language, still spoken by over a million people) is an official language in several Mexican states.


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## Stealtheart (Jan 21, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> That the USA shouldn't have this ridiculous hangup about maintaining complete dominance of one imported language (English) over others.


Language helps form the very soul of a culture group, a people have a right to defend their language and culture.


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 21, 2018)

Stealtheart said:


> Language helps form the very soul of a culture group, a people have a right to defend their language and culture.


Exactly.  So why are you so against Spanish being maintained as an official language in what is now the western USA but used to be Mexico?


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## Black Burn (Jan 21, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> Exactly.  So why are you so against Spanish being maintained as an official language in what is now the western USA but used to be Mexico?


Well it used to be Mexico two centuries ago... now there should be americans... probably...


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 21, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Well it used to be Mexico two centuries ago... now there should be americans... probably...


There have been people in the Western USA that have Spanish as their first language ever since the USA took the territory though.  They are Americans, just Spanish speaking ones.


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## ellaerna (Jan 21, 2018)

Saiko said:


> That’s just it though! They had a compromise worked out and ready to go! It even allocated 10% of Trump’s wall funding, which would have kept him on track for funding it in ten years. Trump was the one that rejected the compromise, and now they can’t figure out another because he’s empowered far-right Republicans to make demands the Democrats will never agree to. This is almost entirely Trump’s fault because he couldn’t play nicely.


Everything is right fucked the way I see it. I always hated the two party system, but if we've reached the point when a single party is so fractured that they are basically useless then you know we've really fucked up. The way things are clearly is not working anymore.

@backpawscratcher and @Stealtheart while I appreciate that my thread inspired discussion, yours is getting farther and farther away from the topic at hand. Maybe veer back towards the shutdown or move this to another venue. No hate, just trying to keep this train on track.


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## Umbra Vulpes (Jan 21, 2018)

I've always wondered why the United States stil uses a two party system. There is such a wide range of political views in both the Republican and Democratic camps that some will be ignored or pushed aside.

We use a multi-party system although even our system isn't perfect. A Multi party system is the USA could be what your Democracy needs it will allow parties that resonate with the people to gain voters.

The only flaw with a system like this it can allow parties with extreme views gaining power in districts where they have higher voter numbers.


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## MetroFox2 (Jan 21, 2018)

Black Burn said:


>



Did somebody say Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? My EU4 senses are tingling!


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## Black Burn (Jan 21, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> Did somebody say Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? My EU4 senses are tingling!


Well it was great power but goverement was shitty for me... But it's not topic for this thread...


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 21, 2018)

Umbra Vulpes said:


> I've always wondered why the United States stil uses a two party system. There is such a wide range of political views in both the Republican and Democratic camps that some will be ignored or pushed aside.
> 
> We use a multi-party system although even our system isn't perfect. A Multi party system is the USA could be what your Democracy needs it will allow parties that resonate with the people to gain voters.
> 
> The only flaw with a system like this it can allow parties with extreme views gaining power in districts where they have higher voter numbers.



The parties have consolidated power and wrung the laws up to prevent other parties from receiving federal funding. Also, most Americans are actually pretty stupid and don't bother even looking up what 3rd parties believe.


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## Simo (Jan 21, 2018)

I noted little baby Donald said the Democrats did this, just to ruin his party, down at a $100,000 per plate anniversary party (Mr. Populist, commom man!), in Florida. Pooooooooooooooooor Baby. Never mind he can't even get enough Republican votes.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 21, 2018)

Umbra Vulpes said:


> I've always wondered why the United States stil uses a two party system. There is such a wide range of political views in both the Republican and Democratic camps that some will be ignored or pushed aside.
> 
> We use a multi-party system although even our system isn't perfect. A Multi party system is the USA could be what your Democracy needs it will allow parties that resonate with the people to gain voters.
> 
> The only flaw with a system like this it can allow parties with extreme views gaining power in districts where they have higher voter numbers.


The US is a Constitutional Federal Republic, not a Democracy.


----------



## Umbra Vulpes (Jan 21, 2018)

That I understand. It just makes you think what would happen if a different system was implemented if things wouldn't change for the better. 

To implement a new system would of course take a several decades and cost billions to restructure your government which would be impractical to do because it does work most of the time.


----------



## Astus (Jan 21, 2018)

Umbra Vulpes said:


> That I understand. It just makes you think what would happen if a different system was implemented if things wouldn't change for the better.
> 
> To implement a new system would of course take a several decades and cost billions to restructure your government which would be impractical to do because it does work most of the time.



Actually, our system is set up so that individuals can run for president without the need of being represented by a primary party and win... but it won't happen, because of exactly what I said before with all my long rants; people are brainwashed into thinking there are only two options they can choose from, democrat or republican. The issue is not the system and changing it, rather changing the sociological ideals that people have about the political system in the first place. The worst part about it is, that people have no choice but to keep using the two party system and not vote third party. If everyone else is voting for the lesser of two evils, thinking a third party has no chance, then the third party will never be elected. 

The funny thing is that the two parties are all about protecting and maintaining their own parties and their own self rather than helping the people they're elected to serve... it's quite funny. We need a government of people elected by the people to serve the interests of the people, not the interests of lobbyists, themselves, or their party.


----------



## ShadowofBucephalus (Jan 22, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> They all need to be fired. Out here in the real world you get fired for not doing your job.


*BINGO*

Politicians are so out-of-touch with the American People, it's gone beyond 'Plaid'.

Fire every single one of the bastards, then fire every single one of the Judiciary, followed by every single waste-of-flesh govt. paid lawyer.

For starters.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> Mueller's investigation continues fully funded by all accounts.  Bigger problem is that with this being an election year everyone is going to stick to their guns and blame the other side.  Fun fun fun!!


A tad late, but can I offer you some tea while we all watch the total shitshow? 

...A lot of of tea. And popcorn with butter.


----------



## MyMonkeyLife (Jan 22, 2018)

chuckles_da_wolf said:


> A very good friend of mines highly decorated Air Force grandfather passed away this morning, due to the government shut down he won’t recieve the military burial with full honors he is entitled to


That makes me sad because my grandfather (who fought in ww2) died in November, and was able to have an honorable military funeral that he deserved.

I would have been upset if he couldn't have received that because of a shut down like what is currently going on right now (I would probably be livid). Your friend has my sympathies, and hopefully they will be able to right this wrong (if such a thing is possible) eventually when the government is no longer shutdown.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

MyMonkeyLife said:


> That makes me sad because my grandfather (who fought in ww2) died in November, and was able to have an honorable military funeral that he deserved.
> 
> I would have been upset if he couldn't have received that because of a shut down like what is currently going on right now (I would probably be livid). Your friend has my sympathies, and hopefully they will be able to right this wrong (if such a thing is possible) eventually when the government is no longer shutdown.


Our Vets should and must be taken care of properly.

thisfactor.com: Homeless Veteran Dies on the Street with No Family Or Friends
Can my heart bleed now? T_T


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## Black Burn (Jan 22, 2018)

But WTF, even veterans aren't buried properly?


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## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> @backpawscratcher and @Stealtheart while I appreciate that my thread inspired discussion, yours is getting farther and farther away from the topic at hand. Maybe veer back towards the shutdown or move this to another venue. No hate, just trying to keep this train on track.


OwO ella-chan in a spanking mood? Please spank me. I've been a very bad wolf. :3


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## MyMonkeyLife (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Our Vets should and must be taken care of properly.
> 
> thisfactor.com: Homeless Veteran Dies on the Street with No Family Or Friends
> Can my heart bleed now? T_T


Oh wow, this is an amazing story.

I'm glad that they helped that veteran with no connections have a proper burial. I'm sure if he was able to spectate  from beyond the grave that he would have been smiling.

I agree, stories like that warm the heart =D


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## Black Burn (Jan 22, 2018)

Well it's sad, I understand what some people feel beacuse one of my ancestors fought in battle of England in 303 squadron and after war he wasn't rewarded for it , he couldn't return to motherland and die here, beacuse every pole that was fighting for capitalists was an enemy of Polish People's Republic, and in England nobody really cared about it...


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Our Vets should and must be taken care of properly.
> 
> thisfactor.com: Homeless Veteran Dies on the Street with No Family Or Friends
> Can my heart bleed now? T_T


Although really touching I can’t help but think the story would have been much better if they’d helped him while alive, got him into housing, and ensured that his final days were far more comfortable than what he ended up with.  We have a major issue with this in the UK too, with an embarrassingly high percentage of people living on the streets being ex-services.  It’s simply not good enough.  They deserve better.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

MyMonkeyLife said:


> Oh wow, this is an amazing story.
> 
> I'm glad that they helped that veteran with no connections have a proper burial. I'm sure if he was able to spectate  from beyond the grave that he would have been smiling.
> 
> I agree, stories like that warm the heart =D


Yeah. I love reading stories like these.



Black Burn said:


> Well it's sad, I understand what some people feel beacuse one of my ancestors fought in battle of England in 303 squadron and after war he wasn't rewarded for it , he couldn't return to motherland and die here, beacuse every pole that was fighting for capitalists was an enemy of Polish People's Republic, and in England nobody really cared about it...


It's sad. Sad to see the ones who once fought for our survival are being treated like utter garbage. Sad to see that the ones who once fought for our right to be free are on the street. Sad to see the ones who died for our right to live have nowhere to go, and no one to care.



backpawscratcher said:


> Although really touching I can’t help but think the story would have been much better if they’d helped him while alive, got him into housing, and ensured that his final days were far more comfortable than what he ended up with.  We have a major issue with this in the UK too, with an embarrassingly high percentage of people living on the streets being ex-services.  It’s simply not good enough.  They deserve better.


They deserve all the respect, love and care we could possibly give them.

These people fought so that we could have a better life. They don't deserve this sort of treatment. None of them do.


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## MetroFox2 (Jan 22, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> Well it's sad, I understand what some people feel beacuse one of my ancestors fought in battle of England in 303 squadron and after war he wasn't rewarded for it , he couldn't return to motherland and die here, beacuse every pole that was fighting for capitalists was an enemy of Polish People's Republic, and in England nobody really cared about it...



That's sad, and your ancestor has my condolences. Having some Dutch ancestry from the war, I can say that it seems to be just how people thought after the war, my Great Granddad, who was British born, was treated like shit for bringing home and marrying a Dutch woman. Or, at least, that's what I was told.

Anyway, this is kinda off topic, and I still don't really know what it means for the U.S Gov to just, shut down, could someone more informed explain?


----------



## Black Burn (Jan 22, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> That's sad, and your ancestor has my condolences


It's ok, Roseveelt and Churchill dis their best to help us, Churchill asked Stalin three times to make voting which side Poland wants belong to, but as Stalin sayed "It doesn't matter who votes, but who is counting this votes"


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> That's sad, and your ancestor has my condolences. Having some Dutch ancestry from the war, I can say that it seems to be just how people thought after the war, my Great Granddad, who was British born, was treated like shit for bringing home and marrying a Dutch woman. Or, at least, that's what I was told.
> 
> Anyway, this is kinda off topic, and I still don't really know what it means for the U.S Gov to just, shut down, could someone more informed explain?


Basically any non-essential staff in government are either not working or have to work for free in the duration of the shut down. It's happened before on numerous occasions.

I watched one of Styx's video on the topic.





A bit drastic, IMO. The title, I mean.


----------



## AustinB (Jan 22, 2018)

America is such a shit-show now. I’m not even surprised, honestly.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Jan 22, 2018)

It's been an impressively pathetic 2-ish years for the country. This just feels like a sad capper to them.


----------



## ellaerna (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> OwO ella-chan in a spanking mood? Please spank me. I've been a very bad wolf. :3


Uh huh. Riiiiight.
Like you ain't vanilla as a bean.
Little shits don't earn hits.

ON TOPIC:


MetroFox2 said:


> Anyway, this is kinda off topic, and I still don't really know what it means for the U.S Gov to just, shut down, could someone more informed explain?


Government employees get divided up into two groups. Those deemed essential must work through the shut down, but they won't get paid for any of that time until a budget gets passed. Those deemed nonessential are furloughed- meaning they don't work at all and don't get paid at all. Government services are either shut down or work at half speed since so many people get furloughed that the services that do stay open can't handle the same load as before. It's all around a shitty time.


----------



## Junkerfox (Jan 22, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> Anyway, this is kinda off topic, and I still don't really know what it means for the U.S Gov to just, shut down, could someone more informed explain?


Its whenever one of our two almighty and all powerful political parties doesn't get their way with whatever it is their trying to do so they throw a big temper tantrum and shut everything down for a while. So anyone who works for the government doesnt get paid and is basically fucked good until everyone in Washington is done with their bellyaching and things can get back to their normal routine of stonewalling eachother on anything and everything possible and thus set the stage for the next inevitable shutdown a few years later.
Meanwhile the average joe dont feel much affect from it cause we keep our jobs and pay and everything goes on just fine for us.


----------



## MetroFox2 (Jan 22, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Government employees get divided up into two groups. Those deemed essential must work through the shut down, but they won't get paid for any of that time until a budget gets passed. Those deemed nonessential are furloughed- meaning they don't work at all and don't get paid at all. Government services are either shut down or work at half speed since so many people get furloughed that the services that do stay open can't handle the same load as before. It's all around a shitty time.




I hope government services are different over there to what I know them as, namely hospitals, police, fire, and education, because that's a hell of a lot of vital government-funded services to just shut down.


----------



## ellaerna (Jan 22, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> I hope government services are different over there to what I know them as, namely hospitals, police, fire, and education, because that's a hell of a lot of vital government-funded services to just shut down.


This nytimes article breaks things down pretty well. Basically the "vital" services will remain open, but will still be heavily impacted due to much of their man power being furloughed. Some will rely on outside funds- or whatever they've managed to squirrel away for just such an occasion- to remain open as long as possible.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

www.nytimes.com: Senate Votes Overwhelmingly to End Government Shutdown


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)




----------



## backpawscratcher (Jan 22, 2018)

That’s a huge mistake from the Democrats IMO.  McConnell frequently goes back on his word.  He’ll do it again.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> That’s a huge mistake from the Democrats IMO.  McConnell frequently goes back on his word.  He’ll do it again.


Unfortunately, it's deliberate. They've been trying and doing everything they can since day 1 to whatever they can.

If or when term limits come about, we can say "sayonara" to these old and self-entitled fucks.


----------



## ellaerna (Jan 22, 2018)

Well we're in the clear for another 17 days. Then we get to do this all over again.


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Unfortunately, it's deliberate. They've been trying and doing everything they can since day 1 to whatever they can.
> 
> If or when term limits come about, we can say "sayonara" to these old and self-entitled fucks.


McConnell stole a SCOTUS seat.  Outright stole it.  That was always going to have repercussions down the line.  This is what the USA is now seeing.

The Dems are atrocious, but the GOP somehow manage to be worse.  Can’t for the life of me see how, but they’ve done it.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> McConnell stole a SCOTUS seat.  Outright stole it.  That was always going to have repercussions down the line.  This is what the USA is now seeing.
> 
> The Dems are atrocious, but the GOP somehow manage to be worse.  Can’t for the life of me see how, but they’ve done it.



Despite largely identifying as a Democrat, I agree. The immaturity on both sides of the government in this country is simply appalling.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> McConnell stole a SCOTUS seat.  Outright stole it.  That was always going to have repercussions down the line.  This is what the USA is now seeing.
> 
> The Dems are atrocious, but the GOP somehow manage to be worse.  Can’t for the life of me see how, but they’ve done it.


Knowing Dems, they'll try a lot more of this shit. Reps ain't exactly in my good boy list either. 

Just kick'em all out. Introduce new blood, preferably aged 30-50.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

Government shutdown is over.

Seems Dems got their heads out of their asses and gave up. 

Illegal immigrants can't vote, no matter how much you fund them. They do not have legal citizenship. And this government shutdown only hurt legal citizens, including those in the military.


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## Black Burn (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Government shutdown is over.
> 
> Seems Dems got their heads out of their asses and gave up.
> 
> Illegal immigrants can't vote, no matter how much you fund them. They do not have legal citizenship. And this government shutdown only hurt legal citizens, including those in the military.


Ok so it's good in Amerika for now?


----------



## backpawscratcher (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Government shutdown is over.
> 
> Seems Dems got their heads out of their asses and gave up.
> 
> Illegal immigrants can't vote, no matter how much you fund them. They do not have legal citizenship. And this government shutdown only hurt legal citizens, including those in the military.


More complicated than that.  This Dreamer thing has overwhelming support amongst those who can vote.  Congress had a deal all ready to go that satisfied all parties....and then Trump labelled everyone “shitholes” and threw it out.  

Much as your newsgroups would like to pin this one on Dems liking Immigrants it goes way deeper than that.  I’m wondering if the US is now going to see a series of these shutdowns with small extensions all the way up to the elections.


----------



## Saokymo (Jan 22, 2018)

This is more of a win for the Democrats than one might think - CHIPs is now funded again, the government is open (because an extended shutdown helps no one), and there's still no funding for the stupid wall project that no one really wants. DACA is still an issue, but at least we now have 3 weeks to try and hammer out a new deal before the CR is set to expire again.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> More complicated than that.  This Dreamer thing has overwhelming support amongst those who can vote.  Congress had a deal all ready to go that satisfied all parties....and then Trump labelled everyone “shitholes” and threw it out.
> 
> Much as your newsgroups would like to pin this one on Dems liking Immigrants it goes way deeper than that.  I’m wondering if the US is now going to see a series of these shutdowns with small extensions all the way up to the elections.


Illegals have no right to vote. Even if they get to stay their legal status won't change unless they get a permanent visa. I've noticed people are using emotional blackmail to get their way. Calling these illegal aliens for Dreamers is one such instance. 



Saokymo said:


> This is more of a win for the Democrats than one might think - CHIPs is now funded again, the government is open (because an extended shutdown helps no one), and there's still no funding for the stupid wall project that no one really wants. DACA is still an issue, but at least we now have 3 weeks to try and hammer out a new deal before the CR is set to expire again.


Eh. The two-party system should crash and burn. They are so polarized they barely speak at all, enclosed in their own ideological echo chambers.


----------



## backpawscratcher (Jan 22, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Illegals have no right to vote. Even if they get to stay their legal status won't change unless they get a permanent visa. I've noticed people are using emotional blackmail to get their way. Calling these illegal aliens for Dreamers is one such instance.


That’s the people being discussed though.  Undocumented residents of the USA who arrived as children.  To be honest they should have been given a path to citizenship long ago.  That would have resolved this problem.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> That’s the people being discussed though.  Undocumented residents of the USA who arrived as children.  To be honest they should have been given a path to citizenship long ago.  That would have resolved this problem.


And what if more people come? Do they get legal status too? What about their parents who are not legal citizens despite perhaps having been there for decades? Are we going to give legal status to everyone who arrive despite skipping legal and official channels, skipping the queues?

If they have a job and know English then yes, I agree. These people should get temp visas so they can get a permanent visa. The ones who don't should IMO get kicked out. They have no legal right to stay in the country illegally.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

Re: anyone who happens to be talking about illegal immigrants using magically massive amounts of welfare and zapping the economy... 

You know who's actually the problem in this country?

All these stupid white rednecks with no jobs who sit on their ass all day complaining online about "damn Mexikinz" stealing their jobs. 

No one stole your job. 

You're just an unhirable piece of shit, that's all. 

(I'm directly this at no one in particular, mostly the alt-right though.)


----------



## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 22, 2018)

Thankfully it looks like there will be an agreement with DACA so all of you crazy rightards saying crazy shit doesn't matter anymore. Bye bye


----------



## ellaerna (Jan 22, 2018)

Aaaand we're back on DACA. 
Guys.
Really.
Come off it.



Yakamaru said:


> Illegals have no right to vote.


Correct, which is why Backpaw specified that it had support by people who _could_. He's right that it's a more complicated issue than bleeding hearts. 



Yakamaru said:


> I've noticed people are using emotional blackmail to get their way. Calling these illegal aliens for Dreamers is one such instance.


Do you take issue with the use of the term "Obamacare"? Because that's what the Reps decided to call the ACA in order to drum up hate for it (among other things). Some people don't even realize they're the same thing. We call things by the easiest and most socially prevalent names. It's easier to say "Dreamer" than "children of illegal immigrants" and any more I would argue that it has lost all emotionality, though maybe it's just me who's been desensitized to it.



BahgDaddy said:


> Re: anyone who happens to be talking about illegal immigrants using magically massive amounts of welfare and zapping the economy...
> 
> You know who's actually the problem in this country?
> 
> ...


Coming from an area of "stupid white rednecks" this is just as reductionist as the right saying we're all white tower, liberal elitists or entitled millennial SJWs. 
This is a both sides issue and both sides should be held accountable.  There's no one problem child in America who are solely responsible for all our woes. 
While I agree that there are some rural folk who say incredibly dumb and unfounded things, this is not the topic for it.



Ovi the Dragon said:


> Thankfully it looks like there will be an agreement with DACA so all of you crazy rightards saying crazy shit doesn't matter anymore. Bye bye


"rightards"? Classy.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Aaaand we're back on DACA.
> Guys.
> Really.
> Come off it.
> ...



I know there are plenty of people in the cities who are just as classless as sections of Rural America, but in general rural America is the most likely to be homophobic, gun toting, anti-immigration, poorer, and significantly less educated.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 22, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Correct, which is why Backpaw specified that it had support by people who _could_. He's right that it's a more complicated issue than bleeding hearts.


Indeed. Which is why we(well, I don't live in the US so it doesn't really apply to me) need to take each individual case and look at them and see on an individual basis who actually have a job



ellaerna said:


> Do you take issue with the use of the term "Obamacare"? Because that's what the Reps decided to call the ACA in order to drum up hate for it (among other things). Some people don't even realize they're the same thing. We call things by the easiest and most socially prevalent names. It's easier to say "Dreamer" than "children of illegal immigrants" and any more I would argue that it has lost all emotionality, though maybe it's just me who's been desensitized to it.


I take issue with it, yes. Labeling something different than what it actually is defined is stupid and create a false idea of what it actually is. Same goes for Dreamers. You can call them Dreamers, but the facts are, they are per definition and legally(or should I say, illegally), illegal aliens. The children of illegal aliens. They have zero actual rights.


----------



## ellaerna (Jan 22, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I know there are plenty of people in the cities who are just as classless as sections of Rural America, but in general rural America is the most likely to be homophobic, gun toting, anti-immigration, poorer, and significantly less educated.


Well, we're talking about Congress, so I'm not sure why this is relevant. 
This is a both sides issue and both sides should be held accountable. There's no one problem child in America who are solely responsible for all our woes.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> Well, we're talking about Congress, so I'm not sure why this is relevant.
> This is a both sides issue and both sides should be held accountable. *There's no one problem child in America who are solely responsible for all our woes.*



That's why this is relevant. It's a broad American trait of immaturity, lack of sophistication, and inability to think critically that gets us into these dreadful political situations.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Let me throw in Ben Shapiro's famous words

"Facts don't care about your feelings"


----------



## Saokymo (Jan 22, 2018)

Dreamers - and all immigrants, illegal or otherwise - do have basic unalienable human rights. Brought here as children, they likely had zero say in their parents' decision to come to the United States. They have lived here, they were raised here, they work and pay their taxes here. They are American by everything but legal technicality, and do not deserve to be punished for the crimes of their parents. It shouldn't matter _how_ they came here, only that they _are_ here - and we have a moral responsibility to help them be a full part of the society that they have grown up in.

At least that's my hippy-dippy take on it, because I am an empathetic individual who can see the societal benefit of taking care of others even if it does not benefit me directly for doing so.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Saokymo said:


> Dreamers - and all immigrants, illegal or otherwise - do have basic unalienable human rights. .



They have human rights but they don't have american rights


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Let me throw in Ben Shapiro's famous words
> 
> "Facts don't care about your feelings"



Thankfully I don't care about Ben Shapiro's "facts."


----------



## Saokymo (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> They have human rights but they don't have american rights



They are American in all but legal technicality (see: raised here, live here, work here, and pay taxes). Why should we not develop a path for these people to attain full legal citizenship? Many of them are highly educated (by American colleges) professionals - doctors, lawyers, engineers, and so forth. What benefit would we gain by kicking them out of our country?


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Saokymo said:


> They are American in all but legal technicality (see: raised here, live here, work here, and pay taxes). Why should we not develop a path for these people to attain full legal citizenship? Many of them are highly educated (by American colleges) professionals - doctors, lawyers, engineers, and so forth. What benefit would we gain by kicking them out of our country?



Born here sure but raised here? that's a joke right?

One has to wonder how they even managed to even study in america without proper documents and identification? Did they forge fake documents? did they lie through their teeth that they're legal residence of the US?

Odd but how would I know right? I live in japan much less cesspool of a mess and we're pretty strict with immigration


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

Saokymo said:


> They are American in all but legal technicality (see: raised here, live here, work here, and pay taxes). Why should we not develop a path for these people to attain full legal citizenship? Many of them are highly educated (by American colleges) professionals - doctors, lawyers, engineers, and so forth. What benefit would we gain by kicking them out of our country?



If someone says "because they're not legal legal legal!" I'm going to throw something. 

It's almost entirely fear. That's all this issue is.


----------



## Saokymo (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Born here sure but raised here? that's a joke right?
> 
> One has to wonder how they even managed to even study in america without proper documents and identification? Did they forge fake documents? did they lie through their teeth that they're legal residence of the US?
> 
> Odd but how would I know right? I live in japan much less cesspool of a mess and we're pretty strict with immigration



You have not answered the question I have asked. What reason do we  have for not giving Dreamers a path to citizenship, and what benefit would there be to removing them from the United States?

(Edit for grammatical clarity)


----------



## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Born here sure but raised here? that's a joke right?
> 
> *One has to wonder how they even managed to even study in america without proper documents and identification? Did they forge fake documents? did they lie through their teeth that they're legal residence of the US?
> *
> Odd but how would I know right? I live in japan much less cesspool of a mess and we're pretty strict with immigration



Here, let me fix that ignorance real quick:

Dreamers and DACA explained - CNNPolitics



> DACA recipients have been able to come out of the shadows and obtain valid driver's licenses, enroll in college and legally secure jobs. They also pay income taxes.
> The program didn't give them a path to become US citizens or even legal permanent residents -- something immigrant rights advocates have criticized, saying it left people in limbo.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Saokymo said:


> You have not answered the question I have asked. What reason do we  have for not giving Dreamers a path to citizenship, and what benefit would there be to removing them from the United States?
> (Edit for grammatical clarity)



I can think of many things but on the top of my head
More job opening for actual americans citizens
American citizens who the american goverment should care about

but that is not to say they cant work on getting citizenship, they can but they have to do it like every other person in this planet: With proper procedures. A country has full rights to control the amount of immigrants that comes into the country

Second is to discourage any form of leeway to an already set agreement

Just like the El Salvador agreement. When calamity stiked El Salvador (maybe due to earthquake or something) president bush agreed to give a "TEMPORARY RESIDENCE" which was further extended by the obama administration. When Trump decided to end their stay (as it should) leftist fuckers went out their way and scream injustice. That was the agreement (stick to it)


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 22, 2018)

It's laughable at how many people who are scrapped off the bottom of the barrel from other countries think they're geniuses about America. Why the hell do we have people from everywhere but the US giving their say on DACA?


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> It's laughable at how many people who are scrapped off the bottom of the barrel from other countries think they're geniuses about America. Why the hell do we have people from everywhere but the US giving their say on DACA?


The irony is rich on this one


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The irony is rich on this one


People come to America for a better life, not to yap about how bad it is.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> People come to America for a better life, not to yap about how bad it is.



yeah and america is obligated to help these people out

yeah you guys should totally open up your borders to everyone. yup... Sweden was just a fluke


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> yeah and america is obligated to help these people out
> 
> yeah you guys should totally open up your borders to everyone. yup... Sweden was just a fluke


You guys sure hate Nordic coumtries. And there's a difference between a flood of refugees from a crisis and a slow trickle of immigrants.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> You guys sure hate Nordic coumtries. And there's a difference between a flood of refugees from a crisis and a slow trickle of immigrants.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 22, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


>


Best arguement when you have no evidence to backup your claim.


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## ellaerna (Jan 22, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> That's why this is relevant. It's a broad American trait of immaturity, lack of sophistication, and inability to think critically that gets us into these dreadful political situations.


You literally said that the actual problem in this country was rednecks. You weren't talking broad issues, you were calling out a single group as the real reason for our problems. Which is incorrect.

---

I do think it's an interesting anecdote on the forums that so many people not from the states like to talk so much about our politics. It at least feels like most of these discussions are started by people from the outside looking in.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 22, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> I do think it's an interesting anecdote on the forums that so many people not from the states like to talk so much about our politics. It at least feels like most of these discussions are started by people from the outside looking in.



I think it's a give and take situation
America do like to nose in on the affairs of other countries and vice versa. it's inevitable that people outside the country take what they have and compare that to the US and see what works and not but what OVI is trying to imply is that no one from other countries (countries that are better than them in certain aspects) don't know the technicalities and intricacies of US politics


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 22, 2018)

.............


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I think it's a give and take situation
> America do like to nose in on the affairs of other countries and vice versa. it's inevitable that people outside the country take what they have and compare that to the US and see what works and not but what OVI is trying to imply is that no one from other countries (countries that are better than them in certain aspects) don't know the technicalities and intricacies of US politics


I think there are many ways in which the US can improve. However you and your right winger friends here are just full of incompetent drivel. For one thing, you're from Japan right? You live on an effing island. Of course you don't have to deal with immigrants. :/


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 23, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I think there are many ways in which the US can improve. However you and your right winger friends here are just full of incompetent drivel. For one thing, you're from Japan right? You live on an effing island. Of course you don't have to deal with immigrants. :/


That is certainly why the wall must be built


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> That is certainly why the wall must be built


Walls aren't like miles of water lol


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## Saiko (Jan 23, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> You live on an effing island. Of course you don't have to deal with immigrants. :/





Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> That is certainly why the wall must be built









Fun reminder that most illegal immigrants here are visa overstays and not midnight border hoppers.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 23, 2018)

Saiko said:


> Fun reminder that most illegal immigrants here are visa overstays and not midnight border hoppers.


Wow. Someone who actually says something that's fact. You deserve a cookie.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 23, 2018)

Saiko said:


> Fun reminder that most illegal immigrants here are visa overstays and not midnight border hoppers.



Every sensible immigration policy has two objectives: 1) to regain control of our borders so that _we_ decide who enters; and 2) to find a humane way to deal with the 11 million illegal immigrants who now live among us. 

Start with the second. For both practical and moral reasons, America cannot and will not and should not expel 11 million people.  That leaves us with two choices: ignore them or figure out a way to legalize them. Ignoring them hasn’t worked. But there is also a huge problem with legalization: it creates an irresistible incentive for new illegal immigrants to come.

We say, of course, that this will be the very last, very final, never-again, we're-not-kidding-this-time amnesty. And everyone knows it's phony. That’s what was said in 1986, when we passed the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform. It turned out to be the largest legalization program in American history -- nearly 3 million people got permanent residency. There was no enforcement. We now have 11 million new illegal immigrants in our midst.

The irony of this whole debate, which bitterly splits the country, is that there is a silver bullet that would not just solve the problem, but also create a national consensus behind it.

A vast number of Americans who oppose legalization and fear new waves of immigration would change their minds if we could radically reduce new -- i.e., future -- illegal immigration.

And we can.

First, build a barrier. Call it a wall. Call it a fence. Call it what you will. Add cameras and sensors. Add drones. Beef up the patrols. All that matters is that we regain control of the border.

Fences work. The triple fence outside San Diego led to a 90 percent reduction in infiltration. Israel’s border fence with the West Bank produced a similar decline. Even holier-than-thou Europeans have conceded the point: Hungary, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Austria, Greece, Spain – why, even Norway -- have all started building border fences to stem the tide of Middle Eastern refugees.

Then enforce two other measures: a national E-Verify system that makes it just about impossible to work if you are here illegally, and a functioning visa tracking system, since 40% of illegal immigrants are visa overstays.

The wall/fence will, of course, be ugly. So are the concrete barriers to keep truck bombs from driving into the White House. Sometimes function has to supersede form. 

And don't tell me that this is our Berlin Wall. When you build a wall to keep people _in_, that's a prison. When you build a wall to keep people _out_, that's an expression of sovereignty.

Of course, no barrier will be foolproof. But it doesn't have to be. It simply has to reduce the river to a manageable trickle. Once we do, everything becomes possible -- including dealing with our 11 million illegal immigrants.

So, let’s fix that. Track the visas, do E-Verify, build the damn barrier. It’s ridiculous to say that it can’t be done.

And who would certify that the border is back in our control? I would have a neutral party, perhaps a commission of retired jurists, issue the judgment. Once they do, we legalize the 11 million, granting them the right to stay and work here.

We can’t give them citizenship. That’s a bridge too far. You don’t get to join the political destiny of the country by entering it illegally. But any children born here would be American -- which means that over time the issue resolves itself.

The American people are legitimately angry at the price American society has paid due to illegal immigration. But they are also a generous people. Once they are assured that we do indeed control our borders, that anger will abate. A national consensus will emerge. 

Radical border control, followed by radical legalization. No mushy compromise. A solution requires two acts of national will: putting up a wall (along with E-Verify and visa tracking) and absorbing those who broke our laws to come to America.

This is not a compromise meant to appease both sides without achieving anything. It’s not some piece of hybrid legislation that arbitrarily divides illegals into those with five-year-old "roots" in America and those without – or some such mischief-making nonsense.

If we do it right, not only will we solve the problem, we will get it done as one nation.

PU


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Every sensible immigration policy has two objectives: 1) to regain control of our borders so that _we_ decide who enters; and 2) to find a humane way to deal with the 11 million illegal immigrants who now live among us.
> 
> Start with the second. For both practical and moral reasons, America cannot and will not and should not expel 11 million people.  That leaves us with two choices: ignore them or figure out a way to legalize them. Ignoring them hasn’t worked. But there is also a huge problem with legalization: it creates an irresistible incentive for new illegal immigrants to come.
> 
> ...


"We" he says from a far away land.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 23, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> "We" he says from a far away land.


There is more than what it seems. Don't assume... You don't know me


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 23, 2018)

I find it hilarious when conservatives say other political ideologies like, for example, Communism, is evil because of how it treats people. Yet conservatives have no problem screwing over other types of people. It's quite ironic. Xenophobia is the hip new thing.


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 23, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> And what if more people come? Do they get legal status too? What about their parents who are not legal citizens despite perhaps having been there for decades? Are we going to give legal status to everyone who arrive despite skipping legal and official channels, skipping the queues?
> 
> If they have a job and know English then yes, I agree. These people should get temp visas so they can get a permanent visa. The ones who don't should IMO get kicked out. They have no legal right to stay in the country illegally.


Once again, we are discussing people who were brought to the USA as children and are already there.  They aren’t arriving from other countries.  As such, they are a special case.


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> They have human rights but they don't have american rights


Re : American Rights.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.”


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 23, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I find it hilarious when conservatives say other political ideologies like, for example, Communism, is evil because of how it treats people. Yet conservatives have no problem screwing over other types of people. It's quite ironic. Xenophobia is the hip new thing.


Continue to live in your bubble man
Oh shit did I use the wrong pronoun?

Was it zit, bich, wik, wak?

/Thread


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## ellaerna (Jan 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I think it's a give and take situation
> America do like to nose in on the affairs of other countries and vice versa. it's inevitable that people outside the country take what they have and compare that to the US and see what works and not but what OVI is trying to imply is that no one from other countries (countries that are better than them in certain aspects) don't know the technicalities and intricacies of US politics


Oh I know what he was implying. I was simply trying to turn it into something less hostile.
Though he's not technically wrong, either. Even Americans don't know the intricacies of their politics in most cases. I would venture a guess that those not actively living through it aren't that much better versed in such things. This is speaking about populations as a whole, not individuals, of course.


And guys, please lay of the personal attacks. Ffs, everyone in this thread atm are adults. Fucking act like it.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 23, 2018)

Another thing about that stupid fence... it will be an ecological disaster and effect migration patterns of thousands of species that cross into Mexico and America constantly.

Wait.

Does that make road runners and butterflies illegal immigrants?

See how stupid the humans are?


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## Umbra Vulpes (Jan 23, 2018)

Let's assume the wall does get build at some point this just takes away the land route there are long stretches of coast line that can be used to gain access to the USA. 

The fact is that if people's conditions in their native countries are bad enough they will risk anything for the slight chance of a better life. We've seen it in the middle east, people risking and some losing their lives just to get away from the constant threat of death hanging over them by crossing vast stretches of ocean using overcrowded dinghies.

Will the wall decrease illegal immigration? Yes it definitely will.
Will it completely stop illegal immigration? I honestly don't think so.


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## ellaerna (Feb 8, 2018)

Here we go again.
Second verse, same as the first


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## Deleted member 115426 (Feb 9, 2018)

My country is the greatest in the world. USA! USA! USA! :V


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## ellaerna (Feb 9, 2018)

Greatest at not functioning, at least.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Feb 9, 2018)

A shutdown of the government you say?


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## Black Burn (Feb 9, 2018)

*crazy laughs*


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## Umbra Vulpes (Feb 9, 2018)

Atleast you've all got a parade to look forward to.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Feb 9, 2018)

Umbra Vulpes said:


> Atleast you've all got a parade to look forward to.


Oh god.


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## Br3a (Feb 9, 2018)

In my personal opinion we need to remove the party system, all it is doing is causing a divide in our country, and removes us from voting in politicians based on their individual merits. But hey atleast we get a circus every 4 years


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