# Plot Twist! How much is too much?



## Victor Anderson (Jan 9, 2015)

I am currently working on my first novel (Yay!), and I need someone's opinion on something...

How many plot twists can a story contain, without being annoying? I mean, I just killed main character, and brought them back using Deus Ex Machina twists... so, yeah...


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## RedSavage (Jan 9, 2015)

That's already too much imho. There's into so much a reader can take before throwing their hands up and going "oh fuck this I'm done"


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## Taralack (Jan 9, 2015)

Victor Anderson said:


> I just killed main character, and brought them back using Deus Ex Machina twists



You clearly haven't read Malazan. No one really dies in that series, they always come back in one way or another.


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## NilFur (Jan 9, 2015)

It entirely depends on the quality of the twists: are they interesting? believable? fitting the mood and flow you want? not making the previous events meaningless nor "cheating" on the reader? participating in of your storytelling rather randomly than interrupting it?

You can get away with as many twists as you can find for which all the answers are yes... knowing that aboundance of twists will lower your ability to surprise the reader, who learns fast about you, may or may not be believable in your universe/genra and will affect the mood and flow: in other term, good plot twists are not easy and must be tailored to the story.

Things like deus ex machina bringing back your main character? Errrr, you might want to rework that a little because this sounds a lot like the "I'm out of sugar, how about platypus with your coffee?" school of twisting, aka: just injecting randomness or arbitrarily changing direction when lacking actual ideas to keep things interesting or to get out of a certain situation.

And the maximum times you can do those without annoying your readers is zero.

On the bright side, with a bit of work on preparation/explanation/believability, a deus ex can be reworked into something more palatable. Like most things that are bound to happen in a first draft... so give yourself some slack the time to actually write your story down without blocking on every difficult bit. It's better to finish that draft with some weak parts and then to edit it into greatness than never to finish your story at all.

But keep this in mind: plot twists are a technical trick to pull out well, not an easy cure-all fix. They simply don't work as the later.


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## ArmorcladCoyote (Jan 10, 2015)

The biggest factor in how many twist a story can have all depends on the writer's skill. Some very skilled ones can layer a dozen seamlessly across each other; some botch up even a single one. Usually a single well crafted twist in a story usually works best. Each twist you add makes readers question the story and each successive twist has a lesser impact. Write your story around the twist, not your twist around the story. A good twist usually has to have something that hints about it  throughout the story. The best twist is something the reader gets hints  of but doesn't see the first time but if they reread they'll notice  clues.

I find Deus Ex Machina to be one of the poorest writing moves out there. Even bringing and actual divine being into the mix works better. But don't have them appear to solve the problem then vanish. That's the same thing but with a light show. The only reasons Disney gets away with the fairy godmother in Cinderella was: she was in some versions of the original tale and she had a musical number. Find some way to justify the character coming back to life that is established earlier. And most importantly, to quote Anton Chekhov, "if it's not essential, don't include it in the story." A cheap death accomplishes nothing.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 10, 2015)

If you're going to write a plot twist then go back and read what causes the twist to happen it the first place and make sure the twist is softly foretold somewhere so it isn't just a random "out-of-the-ass" moments that we all hate. Have as much twist as you want but make sure the entire thing proceed down the same path and lead to the same objective, not just "Hey, a twist!" and suddenly change everything I have been reading.


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## SkyeLansing (Jan 10, 2015)

Your plot can twist as much as you want, however it needs to fit in the framework of the world you've created. In effect you need to have clues that the twist could happen (not that it _will_, but _could_) so that when the twist comes your reader has a "Ooooh yeah" moment.

If you want to see how this is done well vs. how this is done badly look at The Sixth Sense and compare it to pretty much any other movie done by M. Night (I'm going to use Signs).

In the Sixth Sense we get the "Dead All Along" twist and it works really well because at that point you suddenly realize that Bruce Willis hasn't been talking to anybody BUT the kid. Suddenly all of his interactions with his wife make sense. She isn't ignoring him and withdrawn because their relationship is falling apart, but because she cannot see him and is only now trying to move on past the trauma she suffered when he died in front of her. It is so masterfully done I'm tempted to say that M. Night had nothing to do with it and instead was arguing that everyone should be mutant murder hobos or something.

In contrast the big twist at the end of Signs is that the aliens are deathly allergic to water. Now you might think this is well set up because of the little girl putting glasses of water everywhere and hints that they aren't showing up where there is water, but honestly even so it doesn't work. Yes the hints are given, but the whole thing doesn't make sense within the context of its own world. For example, if the Aliens are so deathly allergic to water why are they attacking a planet covered in so much of the stuff that water vapor makes up a significant portion of our atmospheric composition? (There is actually a second, well hid twist in there as well though! The kid is saved from the alien poison because he has Asthma.)

Hopefully all of this was helpful.


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## Conker (Jan 10, 2015)

Victor Anderson said:


> I am currently working on my first novel (Yay!), and I need someone's opinion on something...
> 
> How many plot twists can a story contain, without being annoying? I mean, I just killed main character, and brought them back using Deus Ex Machina twists... so, yeah...


Unless you're a really good writer, killing your main character and bringing them back out of nowhere is...well, even if you are a good writer, it's not something I'd advise doing.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 10, 2015)

Conker said:


> Unless you're a really good writer, killing your main character and bringing them back out of nowhere is...well, even if you are a good writer, it's not something I'd advise doing.



^

If you're going to kill them, kill them right at the end so they are reborn as legends.


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 10, 2015)

It should be said that the character's death (And bringing back) isn't out of nowhere, so much as it is a major plot point, the start of the rising action. The way he died, and the way he was resurrected, both are conduits for back story and plot development... Not a random thing.

Even if it is horrible (I may end up scrapping the idea), thanks guys! You've all be really helpful.


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## Conker (Jan 11, 2015)

Victor Anderson said:


> It should be said that the character's death (And bringing back) isn't out of nowhere, so much as it is a major plot point, the start of the rising action. The way he died, and the way he was resurrected, both are conduits for back story and plot development... Not a random thing.
> 
> Even if it is horrible (I may end up scrapping the idea), thanks guys! You've all be really helpful.


Well, the other way to look at it is: You can't know if it'll work if you don't try it.


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 11, 2015)

A quick note... This thread has little meaning now, as I've scrapped the novel.

Thanks, anyways, guys. I really appreciate the help!


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## Maugryph (Jan 11, 2015)

Why did you give up?


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## Gnarl (Jan 11, 2015)

Never give up! tear up a few pages maybe and go in a different direction... sure, but never give up! Every story is worth telling!


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 11, 2015)

Maugryph said:


> Why did you give up?



It had too much back story - back story that you had to know to understand parts of the story - and too little chance to tell that story. I guess that's not the best way to put it... Despite the content of this thread, I don't like to drop bombshells on whoever is reading what I write. I had trouble finding a good way to subtly say "Hey... there was a massive series of bombings that crippled europe. That's why everything is kinda doing what it is." On top of that, I've grown to dislike the plot for it... Demon deals, hell's reapers, chaos driven madmen, and a man granted superpowers has been done countless times. I may end up just redoing it... I suppose that's why drafts and manuscripts exist, right?


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks xD


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## Maugryph (Jan 12, 2015)

Sometimes you don't have to worry about a back story. Just keep the story focused on the main character and his/her current adventure and explain things as you go along.


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 12, 2015)

Maugryph said:


> Sometimes you don't have to worry about a back story. Just keep the story focused on the main character and his/her current adventure and explain things as you go along.



That's the thing... the main character's actions and reason to still be alive after he died are based around that back story.


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## ArmorcladCoyote (Jan 12, 2015)

Maybe you can pare down the backstory to just the essentials you need to explain the resurrection. Or maybe you could bring some of that backstory into the main story. Sometimes non-linear storytelling can be just what the doctor ordered.


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 12, 2015)

ArmorcladCoyote said:


> Maybe you can pare down the backstory to just the essentials you need to explain the resurrection. Or maybe you could bring some of that backstory into the main story. Sometimes non-linear storytelling can be just what the doctor ordered.



That goes along with my loss of inspiration... I've been trying to put the back story into the actual story, but I feel like it's boring and cheap. I don't know, to be honest. This is by far the worst bout of writer's block I've had in a while...


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## Gnarl (Jan 12, 2015)

Victor Anderson said:


> That goes along with my loss of inspiration... I've been trying to put the back story into the actual story, but I feel like it's boring and cheap. I don't know, to be honest. This is by far the worst bout of writer's block I've had in a while...


Just remember what happened in the eight movie of the Harry potter thing, where he got hit with the death spell and went into his head to explain the whole thing! 
There are other examples as well, where the main character sees their whole life pass before them as they are about to die, then at the last second they get saved or somehow survive. If done well it can keep the reader right in the thick of the story.Also bear in mind that you don't always need to explain everything, give the reader some (small amount) ability to create their own ideas of how it could have happened. When the reader does that then they become invested in the story and continue to read.


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## Troj (Jan 12, 2015)

People typically enjoy twists when they make sense in light of previous events, the current setting/world, and the characters' choices and personalities, and when they can be traced backwards through the story via a trail of "bread crumbs" left by the author.

People often hate twists when they appear random, forced, or illogical, and when they violate the rules of the world in which the story takes place. 

People also hate cliched twists that they've seen a thousand times, e.g., the bad guy is the protagonist's parent, the butler did it, obvious traitor is obvious, etc.


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## Conker (Jan 12, 2015)

Gnarl said:


> Never give up! tear up a few pages maybe and go in a different direction... sure, but never give up! Every story is worth telling!


Not every story is worth telling.


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## Gnarl (Jan 12, 2015)

Conker said:


> Not every story is worth telling.



Well, maybe your right but still even the worst one might be enjoyed by at least one person out of the 6 billion currently on the planet.


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## Conker (Jan 12, 2015)

Gnarl said:


> Well, maybe your right but still even the worst one might be enjoyed by at least one person out of the 6 billion currently on the planet.


Well yeah, but now you're just playing the odds. Law of averages state that half the people are of average intelligence, which means that there are a lot of stupid people out there who will enjoy really shitty things on the basis of, "GOD GUYS, I HAD FUN. STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING DOWNER"

I'ts why there are four Transformers movies.

Edit: Honestly? It takes more guts to abandon a project you've put tons of hours into than it does to force it to completion. If the OP looked at this story and said it wasn't working, then more power to him. Self awareness is an important talent for any artist to have.


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 12, 2015)

Conker said:


> Well yeah, but now you're just playing the odds. Law of averages state that half the people are of average intelligence, which means that there are a lot of stupid people out there who will enjoy really shitty things on the basis of, "GOD GUYS, I HAD FUN. STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING DOWNER"
> 
> I'ts why there are four Transformers movies.
> 
> Edit: Honestly? It takes more guts to abandon a project you've put tons of hours into than it does to force it to completion. If the OP looked at this story and said it wasn't working, then more power to him. Self awareness is an important talent for any artist to have.



Thank you, Conker. xD


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## Conker (Jan 12, 2015)

Victor Anderson said:


> Thank you, Conker. xD


I've had to do it myself, stop working on something. It fucking sucks and it hurts, but it's usually the proper course of action.


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## Gnarl (Jan 13, 2015)

Conker said:


> Well yeah, but now you're just playing the odds. Law of averages state that half the people are of average intelligence, which means that there are a lot of stupid people out there who will enjoy really shitty things on the basis of, "GOD GUYS, I HAD FUN. STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING DOWNER"
> 
> I'ts why there are four Transformers movies.
> 
> Edit: Honestly? It takes more guts to abandon a project you've put tons of hours into than it does to force it to completion. If the OP looked at this story and said it wasn't working, then more power to him. Self awareness is an important talent for any artist to have.



I must agree with you there! I have at least a dozen that will never see the light of day, except when they will make it to the burn pile! 

Good luck OP!


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## Maugryph (Jan 13, 2015)

Conker said:


> Well yeah, but now you're just playing the odds. Law of averages state that half the people are of average intelligence, which means that there are a lot of stupid people out there who will enjoy really shitty things on the basis of, "GOD GUYS, I HAD FUN. STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING DOWNER"
> 
> I'ts why there are four Transformers movies.
> 
> Edit: Honestly? It takes more guts to abandon a project you've put tons of hours into than it does to force it to completion. If the OP looked at this story and said it wasn't working, then more power to him. Self awareness is an important talent for any artist to have.



There is a difference between being self critical (a very important skill in itself that 'keeps the blindfold off' so to speak) and giving up. 

Even if the story is terrible, it is better to finish it if your more then halfway done. If your still in the early stages and it's not working, abandon it like the plague

Why should you finish your story?
1. It builds confidence.
2. It proves to others and yourself that you can complete projects.
3. You might be able to take the parts that where good and put them into anther story.
4. You might be able to salvage the story later one when inspiration hits you.
5. It's a learning experience.
6. If you have a bunch of unfinished projects, and no finished ones. What do you have to show?

Also try smaller projects that you can finish before you try to write something big and epic.


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## Kinharia (Jan 13, 2015)

Plot twist! This isn't real life events! It's just a story! 

Do I win?


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 13, 2015)

Kinharia said:


> Plot twist! This isn't real life events! It's just a story!
> 
> Do I win?



You do. Have a cookie!


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## Conker (Jan 13, 2015)

Maugryph said:


> There is a difference between being self critical (a very important skill in itself that 'keeps the blindfold off' so to speak) and giving up.
> 
> Even if the story is terrible, it is better to finish it if your more then halfway done. If your still in the early stages and it's not working, abandon it like the plague
> 
> ...


I think it depends on the writer's skill level, the length of the story, and a bunch of other factors.

Books are big projects. To force yourself to finish one just because or to hopefully learn something is a misuse of your time when you could start a better project.


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## Maugryph (Jan 13, 2015)

Conker said:


> I think it depends on the writer's skill level, the length of the story, and a bunch of other factors.
> 
> Books are big projects. To force yourself to finish one just because or to hopefully learn something is a misuse of your time when you could start a better project.



I agree. There are some projects that are not going to work and need to have the plug pulled.


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## Victor Anderson (Jan 13, 2015)

Anyways... I did not expect this to be a thread to get to a second page. Thanks, guys, for the words of care and needed scorn.

As for the scrapping of the book... I'm still scrapping it, but I may take it and apply it to other things. I'm posting it to FA (I actually figured out to get it to work... I was having problems.), here be da link:
Die Fledermaus *Scrapped Story* by VictorAnderson -- Fur Affinity [dot] net


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## -Sliqq- (Jan 21, 2015)

There's a point when the plot twist is no longer a plot twist. That's when you stop.


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