# How long should my muzzle be?



## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

I was wondering how long my muzzle should be on my wolf head im working on. Thanks for your help


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## Springdragon (Feb 3, 2013)

Not to be completely unhelpful, but it depends on what you're doing. Important factors include:

1) The size of your head.
2) The size of your head compared to your body.
3) The style of head you are making.
4) The look and expression you are trying to acheive.
5) The type of nose and jawset you plan to use.


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## Dokid (Feb 3, 2013)

It also depends if you want a more human look or a more feral look. As well as if you're going for toony or realistic. Some pictures would help us determine if you need to make the muzzle longer or shorter.

What I did was trace the outline of my head. Then I drew the muzzle unto there to figure out how big I wanted it before cutting.


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## Dokid (Feb 3, 2013)

Edit:....wow I posted on the wrong thread.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

I am trying to go for a toony type look here is my start on my muzzle so far http://i.imgur.com/mi084dc.jpg which i think might be to small. I did not know what to start on first while making my face so I just picked the muzzle. Any suggestions on what to start on first? like what piece? To answers some of your questions SpringDragon 


1) The size of your head. 

Here is a picture i just took to possibly help (I know i need a hair cut lol)
http://imgur.com/Q1y8uXY

forehead - 23 1/2 inch 
What other measurements should I take? 

2) The size of your head compared to your body.
I would like it to look this size http://t.facdn.net/9842574@400-1359922112.jpg

3) The style of head you are making.
A toony type look but with a hint of realism so you can tell im a wolf over a dog. (trying to avoid dog syndrome) 

4) The look and expression you are trying to acheive.
I would like to look like a happy wolf  Im a goofy person so I think that would be a fitting expression

5) The type of nose and jawset you plan to use.
This idk what I should use, any recommendations? 


Thanks again guys for all your help!


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

I started on the eye sockets / eyebrows  is this the right placement for them / right shape ? http://imgur.com/tNAVpgn


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## Dokid (Feb 3, 2013)

It's the right shape but boy those are some giant eyebrows. I hope you trim them a bit. I've found that when I foam my heads I like to do the muzzle first then build up the cheeks. It then gives me a little window or platform for making the eyebrows.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Dokid said:


> It's the right shape but boy those are some giant eyebrows. I hope you trim them a bit. I've found that when I foam my heads I like to do the muzzle first then build up the cheeks. It then gives me a little window or platform for making the eyebrows.




Lmao ya I was thinking the same thing! Ya I will have to trim those bushes! Now how do I trim them and leave enough room for follow me eyes? Or will I not be able to do follow me eyes with this kind of head?


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

O p.s should my muzzle be longer? Also if i should is this what the top of the shape should look like? http://imgur.com/BkxHsud  / http://imgur.com/X48aypO or should i just do just the muzzle


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## Springdragon (Feb 3, 2013)

http://d.facdn.net/art/springdragon/1359940537.springdragon_wip.png

Your muzzle is long enough, but it isn't wide enough at the base. It's difficult to differentiate between canine types in toony suits because they are already simplified, but you can try making the ears and eyes smaller and stop less dramatic, in addition to a wolfish markings and/or yellow eyes.

To get a happy expression, you will have to build the cheeks higher, curving into the base of the eyes. Try not to put the brow ridges too high. You need a forhead or the eyebrows will look floaty. I wouldn't worry about building eyebrows at all. Instead. build the head without them and glue or paint them on later. (Then again, I personally hate eyebrows on animals. I would rather use the eyespot markings.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Springdragon said:


> http://d.facdn.net/art/springdragon/1359940537.springdragon_wip.png
> 
> Your muzzle is long enough, but it isn't wide enough at the base. It's difficult to differentiate between canine types in toony suits because they are already simplified, but you can try making the ears and eyes smaller and stop less dramatic, in addition to a wolfish markings and/or yellow eyes.
> 
> To get a happy expression, you will have to build the cheeks higher, curving into the base of the eyes. Try not to put the brow ridges too high. You need a forhead or the eyebrows will look floaty. I wouldn't worry about building eyebrows at all. Instead. build the head without them and glue or paint them on later. (Then again, I personally hate eyebrows on animals. I would rather use the eyespot markings.



Wow this is such great help!  Thanks so much! hopefully I can execute that reference  Its pretty much what I had in mind


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## Dokid (Feb 3, 2013)

Also You can add follow me eyes but the eye ridges or brows don't have to stick too far out. It still should have a nice streamlined effect.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Started to work on the top jaw any suggestions ? http://imgur.com/Eb2NBc6,qS2EruV,yNIkCVR#0 there is 3 images on that site.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Dokid said:


> Also You can add follow me eyes but the eye ridges or brows don't have to stick too far out. It still should have a nice streamlined effect.


Ya thats a good reff thanks


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Here is a shot after I did some more trimming any suggestions? Also should I make this a moveable jaw? http://imgur.com/OSQcTK4


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## Springdragon (Feb 3, 2013)

Halt said:


> Started to work on the top jaw any suggestions ? http://imgur.com/Eb2NBc6,qS2EruV,yNIkCVR#0 there is 3 images on that site.




I usually make the top and bottom together and cut them apart later. That will ensure that they look natural together because any asymmetries will be present in both. More importantly, they will fit together perfectly when the mouth is closed.

Don't try to carve the head piece by piece or you won't be able to get it smooth. Glue on another foam piece for the bridge of the nose and build up your eye sockets and cheeks before you start carving. If you can cut across multiple pieces, the shapes will be properly connected.


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## Dokid (Feb 3, 2013)

I think the muzzle is a bit too long. Maybe trim it a bit. What I do is I add the bottom jaw by cutting a piece of foam that is the width of my head. Then taper it down until the bottom jaw is there and formed. I think it might be a bit too late to make it a moving jaw since you'll need to put in elastic. 

Also to smooth out the transition from cheeks to muzzle you can place a very thin square piece to make a bridge between the two.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Springdragon said:


> I usually make the top and bottom together and cut them apart later. That will ensure that they look natural together because any asymmetries will be present in both. More importantly, they will fit together perfectly when the mouth is closed.
> 
> Don't try to carve the head piece by piece or you won't be able to get it smooth. Glue on another foam piece for the bridge of the nose and build up your eye sockets and cheeks before you start carving. If you can cut across multiple pieces, the shapes will be properly connected.



Thanks for the feed back, so should I trash what I have now? or are you saying I can just glue in my bridge of my nose and glue this to my face and start carving again? Also should I add another cheek piece to each side before I start carving? http://imgur.com/LKe6OQR


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Dokid said:


> I think the muzzle is a bit too long. Maybe trim it a bit. What I do is I add the bottom jaw by cutting a piece of foam that is the width of my head. Then taper it down until the bottom jaw is there and formed. I think it might be a bit too late to make it a moving jaw since you'll need to put in elastic.
> 
> Also to smooth out the transition from cheeks to muzzle you can place a very thin square piece to make a bridge between the two.




How much should I cut off in the length? or should I just restart  lol


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

P.S measuring from the top of the muzzle it is just under 7 inchs long.


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## Dokid (Feb 3, 2013)

Halt said:


> How much should I cut off in the length? or should I just restart  lol



no no no don't just restart. I really like the shape you have there. My picture was just to show you how the cheeks should smooth into the muzzle. 

I think you could maybe put it down to 5 1/2? Try 6 and if you like it there then keep it. I think 7 is a bit too long unless you're going for extreme toony.


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Dokid said:


> no no no don't just restart. I really like the shape you have there. My picture was just to show you how the cheeks should smooth into the muzzle.
> 
> I think you could maybe put it down to 5 1/2? Try 6 and if you like it there then keep it. I think 7 is a bit too long unless you're going for extreme toony.



Ya I don't want to go mega toony  so ill try taking of a inch where should I trim it from? the back of it? like where it would attach to the face?


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## Halt (Feb 3, 2013)

Took off about a inch and glued it on. I don't think it is looking to bad for a first head  Any more suggestions? like trying to figure out how to add that little cheek piece to each side but i think i need to start on the bottom jaw right? http://imgur.com/WlzKGHa,j3XIYuz#0


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## Springdragon (Feb 4, 2013)

If it were me I would glue on another piece of foam on top of the muzzle, plus the bridge of the nose, the cheek, and lower jaw before carving anything else. It's very difficult to get smooth lines otherwise.  Some people carve the entire thing from a hard foam block, but that tends to be more expensive than squashy sheet foam..


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## Halt (Feb 4, 2013)

Springdragon said:


> If it were me I would glue on another piece of foam on top of the muzzle, plus the bridge of the nose, the cheek, and lower jaw before carving anything else. It's very difficult to get smooth lines otherwise.  Some people carve the entire thing from a hard foam block, but that tends to be more expensive than squashy sheet foam..




Sweet thanks for the suggestion. Here is a 4 pictures of my head so far that I did today http://imgur.com/lEQRPxK,5O83hJ4,DFYoe0f,JaeCASj#0 I took a side, top and front view of it. I was wondering if you could draw on them again like where I need to add foam and stuff kinda of like what you did before with the image of me please.  I am just having a hard time thinking of where to put that extra foam your telling me to put on there. 

P.S Thanks Springdragon and Dokid for all your help so far, if you end up going to FWA ill have to buy you guys a drink if you want (or something else)


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## Springdragon (Feb 4, 2013)

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9847801/ 

It's coming along nicely. Hope this helps.

I can't metabolize alcohol and Dokid is still underage right now, but thanks for the offer. If we happen to run into each other at a con, I'd love to hang out.

Edit: Dokid, same to you, should we happen to meet.


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## Springdragon (Feb 4, 2013)

Accidental double post.


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## Halt (Feb 4, 2013)

Springdragon said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9847801/
> 
> It's coming along nicely. Hope this helps.
> 
> ...



O that's a shame (alcohol is poison anyways lol) but I sure would love to hang out there  As for the photo spring, I think this helps a lot! So pretty much I carved out to much on my bottom of my upper muzzle so I'm guessing I need to add some more foam there and some on top of my cheek bones ( to give it a happy look ) I'm having a hard time thinking of how I'm going to do the other parts ( lower jaw and cheek parts) I am trying to visualize the shape I need to cut out and just can't lol. Should I cut out my bottom jaw like I did my muzzle? (With 4 inch foam block) 

P.S what do you think about my ears? Good or bad (where I should re due them)


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## Dokid (Feb 4, 2013)

Halt said:


> O that's a shame (alcohol is poison anyways lol) but I sure would love to hang out there  As for the photo spring, I think this helps a lot! So pretty much I carved out to much on my bottom of my upper muzzle so I'm guessing I need to add some more foam there and some on top of my cheek bones ( to give it a happy look ) I'm having a hard time thinking of how I'm going to do the other parts ( lower jaw and cheek parts) I am trying to visualize the shape I need to cut out and just can't lol. Should I cut out my bottom jaw like I did my muzzle? (With 4 inch foam block)
> 
> P.S what do you think about my ears? Good or bad (where I should re due them)



I ears are nicely done. I would just add a bit to the back so they sort of slope down. It's got great shape though. Make sure that you add a bit of the curve of the smile into the cheeks so that It'll give the full effect after you fur it. Furring it will make it non-existant if you don't exaggerate a little.

Also if you ever see me at a con I wouldn't mind saying hi! I'm about 75% sure that I'm going to furfright 2013.


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## Halt (Feb 4, 2013)

Dokid said:


> I ears are nicely done. I would just add a bit to the back so they sort of slope down. It's got great shape though. Make sure that you add a bit of the curve of the smile into the cheeks so that It'll give the full effect after you fur it. Furring it will make it non-existant if you don't exaggerate a little.
> 
> Also if you ever see me at a con I wouldn't mind saying hi! I'm about 75% sure that I'm going to furfright 2013.



O dang that's not to far away from my home state in New Hampshire, but thats quite the hall for me to go from Florida  I am guessing you are not going to FWA? how about your springdragon are you going to FWA?


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## Springdragon (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm located in the midwest, so FWA is far far away. My next conventions are Wild Nights and RMFC.


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## Halt (Feb 4, 2013)

Springdragon said:


> I'm located in the midwest, so FWA is far far away. My next conventions are Wild Nights and RMFC.


o dang, I am trying to do this dam bottom jaw and i cant seem to get it just right. The mouth should be open a little bit right?


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## Halt (Feb 4, 2013)

Ok something is not right here with my bottom jaw .. Idk why I am having such a hard problem with the lower half. http://imgur.com/6F40Isg,Md51yvF#0


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## Nataku (Feb 4, 2013)

I know you're going for a more toony style, but you had mentioned that you were trying to make it clear you were going for a wolf not a dog. A couple things that may help (well, only if people are familiar with wolves, but its amazing how many people can confuse a husky for a wolf) is being familiar with the phenotyping used to help differentiate wolves from dogs :
This is a very informative article, although if you just want to see the pictures for comparison, scroll down to page 8

Main things I'd suggest as being easy enough to do for a fursuit is wolf ears are rounded, not pointed at the tips. Husky ears, by comparison, are pointed. Also, wolf ears are relatively small, as compared to a german shepherd or most other dogs. GSDs in particular have radar ears xD 

The eye liner (aka skin) around the eyes is a thick black. This is actually convenient if you're doing eyes where you see through the tear ducts, as that black area lines up well with a wolf. Wolf eyes are also more almond-shaped, as compared to a husky or GSD, which have rounder eyes.

Tail is black tipped. Also, tail is relatively short, especially as compared to a GSD or fox's tail. If you compare it to the wolf, I suppose translated to a fursuit, a more realistic wolf's tail should end at or above the knee. Also, wolf tails are never curly like a husky or malamute's. 

Claws are always black. Not pink. Not white. Those are dog colors. Only exception - if you're going for a realistic arctic wolf, the claws would be taupe color.


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## Halt (Feb 4, 2013)

Nataku said:


> I know you're going for a more toony style, but you had mentioned that you were trying to make it clear you were going for a wolf not a dog. A couple things that may help (well, only if people are familiar with wolves, but its amazing how many people can confuse a husky for a wolf) is being familiar with the phenotyping used to help differentiate wolves from dogs :
> This is a very informative article, although if you just want to see the pictures for comparison, scroll down to page 8
> 
> Main things I'd suggest as being easy enough to do for a fursuit is wolf ears are rounded, not pointed at the tips. Husky ears, by comparison, are pointed. Also, wolf ears are relatively small, as compared to a german shepherd or most other dogs. GSDs in particular have radar ears xD
> ...



Seems like you sir are informed about wolves  Which makes me happy because a lot of people are not. Here is a picture of my pet wolf java  http://imgur.com/j227P6T


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## Halt (Feb 5, 2013)

Hey Springdragon, I got some major progress done and should be able to finish up tomorrow (if I don't hit any huge road blocks) Do you think you could possibly do a red mark for me on my update? (They really help soooo much!) http://imgur.com/Kjd4lrr,7iEmpHV,ZCOJABv,ZoybowZ#0 Also, any suggestions I should change about it? Thanks for your time buddy!


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## Dokid (Feb 5, 2013)

Halt said:


> Hey Springdragon, I got some major progress done and should be able to finish up tomorrow (if I don't hit any huge road blocks) Do you think you could possibly do a red mark for me on my update? (They really help soooo much!) http://imgur.com/Kjd4lrr,7iEmpHV,ZCOJABv,ZoybowZ#0 Also, any suggestions I should change about it? Thanks for your time buddy!




Hmm I'll just put another 2 cents here and say that your  bottom jaw looks a bit too wide for the face. Especially in that front/ 3/4ths view.


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## Halt (Feb 5, 2013)

Dokid said:


> Hmm I'll just put another 2 cents here and say that your  bottom jaw looks a bit too wide for the face. Especially in that front/ 3/4ths view.



Lol I figured there was something off, thats why I was hoping for one last red line so i can tell by how much or if I need to completely re due it.


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## Dokid (Feb 5, 2013)

Halt said:


> Lol I figured there was something off, thats why I was hoping for one last red line so i can tell by how much or if I need to completely re due it.



If I have time later tonight when I get back to my house I'll do a red line for you. 

You don't need to completely re do it. Possibly just trim a bit.

If you look you'll see that the lower jaw is just small enough to fit nicely into the upper jaw.


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## Halt (Feb 5, 2013)

Dokid said:


> If I have time later tonight when I get back to my house I'll do a red line for you.
> 
> You don't need to completely re do it. Possibly just trim a bit.
> 
> If you look you'll see that the lower jaw is just small enough to fit nicely into the upper jaw.




Sweet! How much do you think I should take off? here is a picture of the bottom of the head http://imgur.com/8i2h0Fz


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## LemonJayde (Feb 5, 2013)

Just trim off a tiny bit of the foam around the edges. It looks VERY good!

Your progress throughout this thread is stunning, man 

The face is very streamlined and wolf-like. DoKid and Springdragon are doing fantastic jobs at helping you along! :'D


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## Halt (Feb 6, 2013)

LemonJayde said:


> Just trim off a tiny bit of the foam around the edges. It looks VERY good!
> 
> Your progress throughout this thread is stunning, man
> 
> The face is very streamlined and wolf-like. DoKid and Springdragon are doing fantastic jobs at helping you along! :'D




Thanks a lot! Now I uploaded a video this time for some suggestions on what to change and stuff I would love your feed back 

[video=youtube_share;cKHik364q04]http://youtu.be/cKHik364q04[/video]

P.S sorry for the bank talking and lots ahhhs. I have been running on no sleep since I have been working on this for the past 3 days.

P.S.S Is there any way a admin can change this threads name to something like "WIP Halt needs Feedback"


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## LemonJayde (Feb 6, 2013)

Halt said:


> Thanks a lot! Now I uploaded a video this time for some suggestions on what to change and stuff I would love your feed back
> 
> [video=youtube_share;cKHik364q04]http://youtu.be/cKHik364q04[/video]



I love it! Just a tip (you don't seem to be in danger of this, but I always have this problem): make SURE that when you put in/on the eyes, they are EVEN. Look at your suit in the mirror if you are unsure.

I love the anatomy. It's like, semi-cartoonish, but the actual anatomy is kick-ass.


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## Halt (Feb 6, 2013)

LemonJayde said:


> I love it! Just a tip (you don't seem to be in danger of this, but I always have this problem): make SURE that when you put in/on the eyes, they are EVEN. Look at your suit in the mirror if you are unsure.
> 
> I love the anatomy. It's like, semi-cartoonish, but the actual anatomy is kick-ass.



Thanks a lot for the positive feedback. I was going to work on they eyes today I am still trying to figure out how I should go about this. Should I fill in my holes where my eyes are now and then cut out the eye socket? Also any recommendations on what to make the eyes out of? Right now I just have white holy plastic sheet but idk if the holes are to big where it won't look nice. Also can I just use a sharpy instead of spending 5 dollars on a acrylic pen that I will use one?


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## LemonJayde (Feb 6, 2013)

Halt said:


> Thanks a lot for the positive feedback. I was going to work on they eyes today I am still trying to figure out
> 1) how I should go about this. Should I fill in my holes where my eyes are now and then cut out the eye socket?
> 2)Also any recommendations on what to make the eyes out of? Right now I just have white holy plastic sheet but idk if the holes are to big where it won't look nice. 3)Also can I just use a sharpy instead of spending 5 dollars on a acrylic pen that I will use one?



1) I suggest adding eyes after furring, because you don't want to end up with eyes that look too small or something, but that's an artist's preference.
2) For my first fursuit head, I used white foamies, but I suggest something sturdier. Can you take a picture of the material you have? Buckram, white plastic, and white foamies are good alternatives when it comes to eyes. If you can see straight to your eyes through the material, then you probably shouldn't use it.
3) I use a paint sharpie and a black sharpie. I think acrylics look nicer and more detailed, but sharpies can give you the same thing, just with more work.


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## Halt (Feb 6, 2013)

LemonJayde said:


> 1) I suggest adding eyes after furring, because you don't want to end up with eyes that look too small or something, but that's an artist's preference.
> 2) For my first fursuit head, I used white foamies, but I suggest something sturdier. Can you take a picture of the material you have? Buckram, white plastic, and white foamies are good alternatives when it comes to eyes. If you can see straight to your eyes through the material, then you probably shouldn't use it.
> 3) I use a paint sharpie and a black sharpie. I think acrylics look nicer and more detailed, but sharpies can give you the same thing, just with more work.







Thanks  Here is a picture of the mesh.


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## LemonJayde (Feb 6, 2013)

Yeah, you may want to go down a different path, then. That mesh will give it a mediocre look, and you don't want to ruin your amazing head you have going so far!


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## Halt (Feb 6, 2013)

LemonJayde said:


> Yeah, you may want to go down a different path, then. That mesh will give it a mediocre look, and you don't want to ruin your amazing head you have going so far!



Ya I don't want to spend all this money and time for a mediocre look, thats why I am asking for constant feed back every step of the way lol. So what way should i do my eyes? should I do like that follow me eyes with foamies and then have a buckram as the iris and pupil?


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## LemonJayde (Feb 6, 2013)

Halt said:


> Ya I don't want to spend all this money and time for a mediocre look, thats why I am asking for constant feed back every step of the way lol. So what way should i do my eyes? should I do like that follow me eyes with foamies and then have a buckram as the iris and pupil?


I think that may be the best way to go! here is a very good tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKryPPBKiA


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## Halt (Feb 6, 2013)

LemonJayde said:


> I think that may be the best way to go! here is a very good tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKryPPBKiA



Because of this tutorial thats how I ended up with that plastic mesh lol. But you think I could just use buckram instead of that plastic sheet?


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## LemonJayde (Feb 6, 2013)

Halt said:


> Because of this tutorial thats how I ended up with that plastic mesh lol. But you think I could just use buckram instead of that plastic sheet?


Oh yes, definitely.


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## Halt (Feb 6, 2013)

http://youtu.be/oWDtjHA8sk0
I uploaded another WIP video for what I did today  What do you think?


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## Halt (Mar 3, 2013)

Hey guys been making some progress on my suit, here is a picture of it so far. http://i.imgur.com/QO37q1Z.jpg what do you guys think?


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