# Linux Mint 11 "Katya" released



## ToeClaws (May 26, 2011)

The latest version of Mint based on the Ubuntu repo's has been released.  Mint 11 "Katya", however, does *not* use Wayland as the GUI backend, and Unity as the GUI shell (*cheer!*) like the latest Ubuntu, which means it's actually works correctly. 

Mint is best explained in the thread on various Linux/Unix OS's, but in short, Mint is the second most popular Linux after Ubuntu (but may well overtake it this year), and unlike other distributions that use Ubuntu as the base, Mint has a lot of its own unique software and twists, and seems to be straying further and further from the direction Ubuntu's taking.  It comes with all the media and restricted codecs loaded up so that everything works even off the LiveDVD, and can be thought of as a (lot) more polished and user-friendly version of Ubuntu:

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

Also worth noting, it has a KDE, LXDE and XFCE version (different shells) and even has a separate branch based not on Ubuntu, but Debian Linux directly.  LXDE is fantastic for older systems, and the Debian branch is great for power users and folks that like bleeding edge. ^_^


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## Sai_Wolf (May 26, 2011)

Mint is the Linux's communities way of saying "Fuck off." to Mark Shuttleworth.

But it's still .deb based, which makes me a sad panda.


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## ToeClaws (May 26, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> Mint is the Linux's communities way of saying "Fuck off." to Mark Shuttleworth.
> 
> But it's still .deb based, which makes me a sad panda.


 
Haha, yep - and what a giant middle finger it's turning out to be too.  

What makes ya sad about .deb?  From all my years of messing with things, it's the best choice for Linux when it comes to package management and stability... even if Aptitude does _not_ have supercow powers.


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## Runefox (May 26, 2011)

Actually, Ubuntu doesn't use Wayland as the default, like I'd thought. It's an installable package, though I haven't quite gotten it working (dependency issue that is somehow unresolved even after the dependency is installed). Unity truly does suck though. I can see how it would be great for netbooks, but for a desktop, usability goes right out the window.

As for .deb... What the hell man? The apt package management system is perhaps the best on any Linux platform, surely light years ahead of rpm at least (which is, or at least was, a dependency hell nightmare). I don't touch rpm-based distros if I can at all help it.

EDIT: Wait what? _Debian_ branch and _bleeding edge_ in the same sentence?


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## ToeClaws (May 26, 2011)

Runefox said:


> Actually, Ubuntu doesn't use Wayland as the default, like I'd thought. It's an installable package, though I haven't quite gotten it working (dependency issue that is somehow unresolved even after the dependency is installed). Unity truly does suck though. I can see how it would be great for netbooks, but for a desktop, usability goes right out the window.



Ah, didn't realize that - my experience with Natty was quite brief before deciding it to be unusable on a desktop.  Agreed on the Netbook thing - as long as you only run one app at a time, Unity is tolerable, but that's about it. :/



Runefox said:


> As for .deb... What the hell man? The apt package management system is perhaps the best on any Linux platform, surely light years ahead of rpm at least (which is, or at least was, a dependency hell nightmare). I don't touch rpm-based distros if I can at all help it.



*nods* Same - even if you have a good rpm manager like YUM, it's still clunky at best.



Runefox said:


> EDIT: Wait what? _Debian_ branch and _bleeding edge_ in the same sentence?



Ahem.... okay, how about "Bleeding edge within the realms of Debian's world." ;D


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## Runefox (May 26, 2011)

ToeClaws said:


> Ah, didn't realize that - my experience with Natty was quite brief before deciding it to be unusable on a desktop.  Agreed on the Netbook thing - as long as you only run one app at a time, Unity is tolerable, but that's about it. :/


Yeah, it's kind of like using a mobile phone UI for a computer. Multitasking seems like an afterthought, almost as though we're stepping back through time to the age of cooperative multitasking. Then again, I feel the same way about Mac OS... Which is to some degree what Unity feels like, particularly where it comes to the menu bar. But Mac OS, unlike Unity, offers at least some semblance of usability.

EDIT: Actually, VNC servers exist for iOS devices. I had one running on my iPhone for a while... Point and click isn't actually all that bad, and having a real keyboard for input is amazing. But why would you want to make that your computer?


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## Sai_Wolf (May 26, 2011)

Runefox said:


> As for .deb... What the hell man? *The apt package management system is perhaps the best on any Linux platform, surely light years ahead of rpm at least* (which is, or at least was, a dependency hell nightmare). I don't touch rpm-based distros if I can at all help it.
> 
> EDIT: Wait what? _Debian_ branch and _bleeding edge_ in the same sentence?


 
 My face when.

Yum, in my experience with Fedora and Fuduntu, does not want to pull out the ENTIRE desktop meta package when you want to remove one tiny panel app.

But Pacman still rules them all, yo.


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## Runefox (May 26, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> Yum, in my experience with Fedora and Fuduntu, does not want to pull out the ENTIRE desktop meta package when you want to remove one tiny panel app.


  You're talking about Ubuntu, which makes liberal use of such metapackages. Try Debian. Last I checked, you had to install DE's (and Xorg) manually. No metapackage bullshit and a lot more streamlined than rpm-based distros will ever be.


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## ToeClaws (May 26, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> Yum, in my experience with Fedora and Fuduntu, does not want to pull out the ENTIRE desktop meta package when you want to remove one tiny panel app.



Which kinda proves our point - the apt system is very good about dependencies and does not take chances.  If apt was apathetic enough to just pop out a package from a larger one and not care about the dependencies, it could potentially break a lot of stuff. Now... I fully agree that it's retarded that it does such a thing with that meta package, but the fault doesn't lie in the apt system; it's because some knucklehead decided to use a big fat meta package that combines a bunch of small ones as dependencies rather than just install them separately.  Apt is just doing it's job.


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## Sai_Wolf (May 26, 2011)

ToeClaws said:


> Which kinda proves our point - the apt system is very good about dependencies and does not take chances.  If apt was apathetic enough to just pop out a package from a larger one and not care about the dependencies, it could potentially break a lot of stuff. Now... I fully agree that it's retarded that it does such a thing with that meta package, but the fault doesn't lie in the apt system; *it's because some knucklehead decided to use a big fat meta package that combines a bunch of small ones as dependencies rather than just install them separately*.  Apt is just doing it's job.


 
Welcome to Canonical.



Runefox said:


> You're talking about Ubuntu, which makes  liberal use of such metapackages. Try Debian. Last I checked, you had to  install DE's (and Xorg) manually. No metapackage bullshit and a lot  more streamlined than rpm-based distros will ever be.


 
I've tried Debian, and I've found it sorely lacking. I just don't like APT.

Pacman 4 eva


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## ToeClaws (May 26, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> I've tried Debian, and I've found it sorely lacking. I just don't like APT.



Heh, so it's not that APT's bad, you just don't personally like it.  

And yes, Pacman is a great package manager (though honestly... it's very similar in function and reliability to Apt).  I do wish it were used in more than Arch and Frugal.


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## Irreverent (May 26, 2011)

They removed OpenOffice as the default?!?  :shock:

Frag this shit, I'm going to the range....


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## ToeClaws (May 26, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> They removed OpenOffice as the default?!?  :shock:
> 
> Frag this shit, I'm going to the range....



No no, this is a good thing!  Now that Open Office is owned/controlled by Oracle (aka, bastards), most of the development team left and formed their own company called "The Open Document Foundation".  This company was made so that they can continue to develop the product free from Oracle's influence.  They renamed their version "LibreOffice".  Open Office still exists, but development is stalled, and knowing Oracle, it probably won't go very far.  I switched all my systems to LibreOffice shortly after the split - looks and works the same.


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## Irreverent (May 26, 2011)

ToeClaws said:


> No no, this is a good thing!  Now that Open Office is owned/controlled by Oracle (aka, bastards), most of the development team left and formed their own company called "The Open Document Foundation".  This company was made so that they can continue to develop the product free from Oracle's influence.


 
And while that is a good thing from the Open Source gang's perspective, its a body blow to all of the IT ops managers that are trying to drive OOO and Linux into the corporation because, "its standards based."  Except now there's a new kid in the sandbox....  Besides, Oracle's acquisition of mySQL via Sun hasn't turned out to be nearly the debacle it was envisioned to be.


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## Runefox (May 26, 2011)

I thought Oracle actually went ahead and released its grip on OOo and returned development to the community? I could have sworn I saw that one day and went "Hah, the LibreOffice guys have egg on their faces now"


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## net-cat (May 27, 2011)

I've been using Natty for about a week at work. I don't have any problems with it except for Unity. Oh, god, fucking Unity. It's like they tried to rip of MacOS and did a terrible job of it. Fortunately, getting rid of it is as simple as choosing "Ubuntu Classic" from the menu before logging in. (And yes, it remembers your preference.) I'd give Mint a try, but Ubuntu is the official work-sanctioned distro.


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## Sai_Wolf (May 27, 2011)

Runefox said:


> I thought Oracle actually went ahead and released its grip on OOo and returned development to the community? I could have sworn I saw that one day and went "Hah, the LibreOffice guys have egg on their faces now"


 
Am I the only one who thinks 'LibreOffice' is a HORRIBLE name for an office suite?


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## Runefox (May 27, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> Am I the only one who thinks 'LibreOffice' is a HORRIBLE name for an office suite?


 Yeah, I thought it was a pretty pretentious-sounding name. I mean, even LiberOffice would have been better than LibreOffice if only because it rolls off the tongue better.


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## Irreverent (May 27, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> Am I the only one who thinks 'LibreOffice' is a HORRIBLE name for an office suite?


 
Reminds me of a Dos Equis beer commercial....

And where the hell do the control buttons (min, max, close, move) keep disappearing too? After 10 minutes of use, they disappear and I'm left with keyboard short cuts.  WTH?


edit: 'Cause compizfusion is crap, that's why! :evil:


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## Sai_Wolf (May 27, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Reminds me of a Dos Equis beer commercial....
> 
> And where the hell do the control buttons (min, max, close, move) keep disappearing too? After 10 minutes of use, they disappear and I'm left with keyboard short cuts.  WTH?
> 
> ...



Don't you just love compositing?

In general and on topic, I do like Mint, if I really MUST go with a Deb distro


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## Irreverent (May 27, 2011)

Sai_Wolf said:


> Don't you just love compositing?


 

Apparently its a known issue, only happens if you actually launch fusion.  On my other boxes, no issue yet.  There is a work around.


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## Sai_Wolf (May 27, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Apparently its a known issue, only happens if you actually launch fusion.  On my other boxes, no issue yet.  There is a work around.


 
Yeah, it happens if you launch compiz without the --replace option. You're overlaying compiz over Metacity; so the windowing system goes derp.


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## Leafblower29 (May 27, 2011)

Gonna upgrade.


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## Draconas (May 28, 2011)

spent an hour installing it in VM, so far it looks nice, just annoyed that all I can give it is 512MB of RAM (since my computer sucks) so I have to use the 32-bit version and not the 64-bit. This will be my ideal OS over ubuntu if I get a new machine and I want to dedicate this current one as something else


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## Zydala (May 29, 2011)

After a whole year of having switched over to linux and enjoying it immensely, I'm wondering if maybe Mint would be a good choice for me. I'm going to go ahead and try the live DVD first, but I have a question in case I decide I do like it: If I'm absolutely comfortable with all my settings and installs, etc on Ubuntu 10.05 as it is right now, is there any efficient way to transfer over the bulk of it to Mint? I'm just talking about things like wireless drivers, tweaks to files, so on and so forth. If not, that's cool; I'll decide if the switch would be worth a day's work of fixing this and that, but I was just curious :]


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## CannotWait (May 29, 2011)

I'm still on Mint 9 because I have an old computer.


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## Irreverent (May 30, 2011)

Zydala said:


> is there any efficient way to transfer over the bulk of it to Mint? I'm just talking about things like wireless drivers, tweaks to files, so on and so forth.



Short answer...no.  Longer answer...if you want to spend a day or three mucking around with apt files before finally saying "ahfuckit" and nuking the box and starting over....no!  




CannotWait said:


> I'm still on Mint 9 because I have an old computer.


 
I've go some dell boxes that are still running Mint 7 just fine.  8 and 9 didn't really add much, there was no point moving to 10-11 for single core 32-bit CPU's.   That said, mint11 amd 64bit  flies on a quad core.


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## Zydala (May 30, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Short answer...no.  Longer answer...if you want to spend a day or three mucking around with apt files before finally saying "ahfuckit" and nuking the box and starting over....no!


 
hahaha awesome. thanks so much for the reply ;] I'm trying out mint today to see if I like it and I'll just back up the most important things I want file-wise.


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## Akau (Jun 3, 2011)

I think this thread just made me a convert. Installing Windows 7 on my Hitachi and going to dual boot W7 and Mint 11 64bit Gnome (Nothing against KDE, I've just never gotten KDE 4 to work right and have been in Gnome since Ubuntu 6 days) Really smooth looking OS, way better than what Ubuntu is trying to pull these days, atleast in my opinion. The info on here helped me decide since I had heard good things about Mint, but I did love Ubuntu 10.04 but the new one, I just can't deal with it XD Mint OS looks like just a super nice option.


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## Folgrimeo (Jun 3, 2011)

I used to use Ubuntu, started out with Hardy Heron (8.04) and gradually went up. As I understand it, Linux Mint is Ubuntu with common restricted things (like .mp3 codec) installed and a nice coat of paint. Nothing against that, that's lovely. But somewhere around Karmic Koala (9.10), new releases of Ubuntu just stopped working on my computer. My monitor complains of no signal and remains off for the rest of the installation process, so unless I want to haul an old CRT down the stairs just to install Ubuntu, I'm out of luck. Also, it ticked me off that you can't get (much) newer versions of software unless you wait for the next Ubuntu release or fiddle around with PGP keys which never work. For these reasons... and more, once I discovered what a mess Lucid Lynx was... I switched to Fedora and haven't looked back. I honestly can't see much of a difference between Ubuntu and Fedora, people are vigilant enough about compiling programs to multiple package formats so it never feels like you have a lack of software.

...but Fedora's getting its share of issues too. New version of Ubuntu has Unity, new version of Fedora has Gnome 3. I haven't tried Unity since I can't install Ubuntu anymore, but I tried Gnome 3... and that was horrible. My computer just can't handle it. On first boot all the graphics are garbled, then when I get it working, it freezes a few minutes later. For those who can't stand either of the new UIs, install the KDE release, or go with XFCE (it's a little like Gnome 2). For the life of me I can't get used to LXDE though.

There's something wrong when Windows XP is more reliable to install (and its UI more reliable to work) than a Linux distribution. As for not having OpenOffice, just grab LibreOffice, it's basically the same thing. Me, I detest the idea of Empathy being standard for a chat client, so I flock back to warm mostly-reliable Pidgin. The only time you can complain is if a program you want is not in the repositories. Speaking of which, I was ready to swear off Fedora because they threatened to not supply Mono for ideological reasons (I much prefer dumbed-down Linux to completely-free because free's not quite all there yet), but turns out they allow it after all.


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