# Dragoneer isn't some sort of fantastic "evil" entity



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

As Arshes deleted my follow-up post while telling me to create a new topic (  ), I'm afraid I'll have slightly less content to share with you guys here.

Anyway, starting from the reply I made on the main thread:




ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I gotta side with Dragoneer on this, guys.
> 
> He's the big boss. He's been on the website for longer than any of us. Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of experience running it. Now if, due to shady processes of some sort, a completely clueless stranger became chief manager of my project and started giving around random orders without filling his duties properly, I would freak out. But I'd very much like someone to explain to me how that's the case here.
> 
> ...


 
As a follow up to that, I started to explain how totalitarian regimes, such a Stalin's and Hitler's, were far more efficient than the current american model of democracy, where most of our time is spent countering each other's actions in a general disagreement.

I don't have anything against the idea of following a dictator, as long as they can do their job well.



Some other stuff:

-The cub art was let go because we couldn't get any more donations. It's not an issue of removing (censoring) "bad" or "morally questionable" art, but one of logistics. If FA stops receiving donations, either Dragoneer goes bankrupt, or we're no longer able to afford the hosting costs. (Maybe both!) There's no point fighting to keep cub art on if the entire site is going down within the month.

-I'm not sure where the idea of Dragoneer "inheriting" the site came from, or how it got started, but I'd like to get more info on that. I haven't found anything to back up that claim yet.


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

I can't recall anyone objecting to Dragoneer's being a dictator on principle.  People object that he is ineffectual, and an ineffectual dictator makes for an effective roadblock.




ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> -The cub art was let go because we couldn't get any more donations. It's not an issue of removing (censoring) "bad" or "morally questionable" art, but one of logistics. If FA stops receiving donations, either Dragoneer goes bankrupt, or we're no longer able to afford the hosting costs.


Yes.  Dragoneer acted when doing otherwise would directly destroy the site.  That's not quite inspiring.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> -I'm not sure where the idea of Dragoneer "inheriting" the site came from, or how it got started, but I'd like to get more info on that. I haven't found anything to back up that claim yet.


I remember it well enough.  See http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity + http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/The_Dragoneer


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## CannonFodder (Feb 7, 2011)

He was part of the original staff, but he didn't make it.
Alkora is the original owner.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Being site owner does mean that he makes the rules and that everyone can, ideally, abide by them or gtfo. However being site owner does NOT mean that he is unaccountable to others for his actions and site policies. He can choose to be unaccountable if he wants, but that would mean that he wouldn't be left with much of a site or a community, and so it's a balancing act. No, Dragoneer doesn't have to be accountable to us at all in theory, but practically if he wants to continue to keep FA as a community, there is a certain amount of answering he needs to do to the users, because a site like this is nothing without its users.

And no, he's not the original owner. But that really has no bearing on things at hand. 

I'm the original creator of TFP, but if I want TFP to continue to be a community I am responsible to my members, because it's my members who make TFP what it is. Without them, TFP is nothing. FA is the same way.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> I can't recall anyone objecting to Dragoneer's being a dictator on principle.  People object that he is ineffectual, and an ineffectual dictator makes for an effective roadblock.


How is he being ineffective? You're resorting to a general statement combined with a weasel word, which makes arguing pretty hard as I have no idea what we should be arguing on.



Eevee said:


> Yes.  Dragoneer acted when doing otherwise would directly destroy the site.  That's not quite inspiring.


There have been many other instances where Dragoneer brought substantial improvements to the site, and reaffirmed his status of benefactor. Essentially everything he does is a completely gratuitous contribution. And he also _could_ have left the site to die there and then, and chose not to.



Eevee said:


> I remember it well enough.  See http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity + http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/The_Dragoneer


Ha, wikifur! These quotes have no credibility whatsoever. While I have to admit wikifur is sometimes useful, in this case it's just as good as ED.



Witchiebunny said:


> Being site owner does mean that he makes the rules and that everyone can, ideally, abide by them or gtfo. However being site owner does NOT mean that he is unaccountable to others for his actions and site policies. He can choose to be unaccountable if he wants, but that would mean that he wouldn't be left with much of a site or a community, and so it's a balancing act. No, Dragoneer doesn't have to be accountable to us at all in theory, but practically if he wants to continue to keep FA as a community, there is a certain amount of answering he needs to do to the users, because a site like this is nothing without its users.
> 
> And no, he's not the original owner. But that really has no bearing on things at hand.
> 
> I'm the original creator of TFP, but if I want TFP to continue to be a community I am responsible to my members, because it's my members who make TFP what it is. Without them, TFP is nothing. FA is the same way.


 Furaffinity is a big place. There's a lot of people ready to take new admin posts, and a complete replacement of the staff is entirely feasible, seeing the current members have been choosen in a rather impartial manner, and a random selection would leave us again with some good and bad elements, to flesh out later. As a matter of fact, we might end up with a more efficient team if we refreshed the staff, seeing Dragoneer has a few friends around who are in better communication with him and share his mentalities, who could be quickly promoted.

If a group of employees with a simple formation (to none) offering a low-end service decide to go on strike, it's easier for the employer to lay them off and hire new ones than try to meet their (often unreasonable) demands. All it takes is the correct mentalities, and proper dedication of time and motivation. We indeed do see big companies firing half of their workforce all the time.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

Hey Arshes, Witchiebunny, et al.  Since you deleted all those posts in that other thread, and historically lock other critical threads, does that mean this thread will be allowed to remain open?

EAM: nobody is saying FA is a democracy.  It, like many other sites, are effectively a dictatorship.  The problem people have with FA is not that it's a dictatorship, it's that it's ineffectual and shoddy and is rife with problems that simply aren't being addressed.  Do they have to address them?  No, there is no obligation for Dragoneer et al. to fix these things.  It also doesn't mean that people are disallowed from criticizing negligence and incompetence.  Nice strawman, though.

EDIT: oh yeah I meant to send this earlier, since you have this habit of talking even though you don't have any idea of the history/context of all this: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/225121/

EDITEDIT: speaking of weasel words, "many other instances where Dragoneer brought substantial improvements to the site, and reaffirmed his status of benefactor" you forgot to add "everyone knows," since it's easy enough to put in all these phrases that prevent you from actually having to provide examples.  "He did things, therefore he is Good Guy #1"  It just doesn't follow.

EDITEDITEDIT: oh and just before i forget, "Dragoneer isn't some sort of fantastic "evil" entity" nobody's saying or thinking this.  fuck you.


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## kayfox (Feb 7, 2011)

Somehow I dont really find Dragoneer having six days on me here being relevant enough to dissuade my criticism of his management style.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Bobskunk, as long as the thread remains on topic, I see no reason why this thread can't remain open and productive.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Bobskunk, as long as the thread remains on topic, I see no reason why this thread can't remain open and productive.


 
I'm just going by precedent.  A lot of these things get locked, there are a bunch on the front page of this very subforum.  "Miserable Users" only stayed open because it was also a nasty surprise to many of the forum staff, not just users.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

I've been on the site for a pretty long time actually. I know that he inherited the site. He is NOT the founder. I know the people involved like Arcturus who ran it. You're the one who really doesn't know the facts.

Like I said I was actually at one point one of the debugging staff when enough outrage from the community because the site was a hell of a lot worse than it is now.

Jheryn was inept. I think his original idea was great I'm not going to deny that, it's just that he was way out of his league maintaining and running a site that became so huge after sheezyart lost the ability to host porn.

In fact, the origins of FA was it wasn't even really a website gallery but a modified version of DevoyBB - http://sourceforge.net/projects/devoybb/


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Furaffinity is a big place. There's a lot of people ready to take new admin posts, and a complete replacement of the staff is entirely feasible, seeing the current members have been choosen in a rather impartial manner, and a random selection would leave us again with some good and bad elements, to flesh out later. As a matter of fact, we might end up with a more efficient team if we refreshed the staff, seeing Dragoneer has a few friends around who are in better communication with him and share his mentalities, who could be quickly promoted.
> 
> If a group of employees with a simple formation (to none) offering a low-end service decide to go on strike, it's easier for the employer to lay them off and hire new ones than try to meet their (often unreasonable) demands. All it takes is the correct mentalities, and proper dedication of time and motivation. We indeed do see big companies firing half of their workforce all the time.


 
And to be sure, I'm not arguing that point. It could be just as easy for Dragoneer to fire those of us who strike and replace us.  And if that happens, then he'll have a very angry userbase on his hands, including myself, who would be speaking out at every opportunity regarding what happened. (and now I can see exactly where Dave Hyena, Eevee, and everyone else is coming from even if I disagree with their methods). 

But just because he *can* do that doesn't make any of it *right*, and that is our point.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> Hey Arshes, Witchiebunny, et al.  Since you deleted all those posts in that other thread, and historically lock other critical threads, does that mean this thread will be allowed to remain open?
> 
> EAM: nobody is saying FA is a democracy.  It, like many other sites, are effectively a dictatorship.  The problem people have with FA is not that it's a dictatorship, it's that it's ineffectual and shoddy and is rife with problems that simply aren't being addressed.  Do they have to address them?  No, there is no obligation for Dragoneer et al. to fix these things.  It also doesn't mean that people are disallowed from criticizing negligence and incompetence.  Nice strawman, though.
> 
> ...


If you wish to question me, start by providing your own examples, and I will follow with my own. You have yet to name any of the problems "people" have with Dragoneer's ruling.



kayfox said:


> Somehow I dont really find Dragoneer having six days on me here being relevant enough to dissuade my criticism of his management style.


 But his post count is way bigger than yours! Who exactly are you, anyway? I've never seen you anywhere, and highly doubt you have the level of experience he has.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

kayfox had offered to help code the site. I can't remember exactly if he finally got the access or if it was one of the things that died. But I've met kayfox in person - he hails from an area I grew up in. We've had our talks too about website improvement.


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> He can choose to be unaccountable if he wants, but that would mean that he wouldn't be left with much of a site or a community, and so it's a balancing act.
> 
> I'm the original creator of TFP, but if I want TFP to continue to be a community I am responsible to my members, because it's my members who make TFP what it is. Without them, TFP is nothing. FA is the same way.


Absolutely.  The "free site" line is trotted out quite a bit, but it reflects a sore misunderstanding of value.  People provide FA with content, network effects, eyeballs on ads, word-of-mouth advertising, goodwill, the joy of owning the biggest furry whatever site, and so forth.  They put their trust in FA.  These things are all valuable, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that FA respects these contributions and responds in kind with reliability, accountability, etc.

This has never been about what Dragoneer must do; only about what he ought do.




ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> How is he being ineffective? You're resorting to a general statement combined with a weasel word, which makes arguing pretty hard as I have no idea what we should be arguing on.


I wasn't trying to argue anything.  You were responding to an argument that doesn't exist, and I'm stating that a different argument does exist.

But since you asked, here are some things off the top of my head.
- FA has been plagued with security problems since the beginning of time.  Dragoneer has made no attempt to have a security audit done or even communicate with people who understand and know of multiple FA security holes.  The attack in December could have been prevented.
- I left the Ferrox project partly because Dragoneer seemed to have either no interest in it or no idea what direction it should take.  The project died shortly thereafter.
- FA has had very few improvements made.  The only ones I can think of are session tracking (?!), the new notes interface, comment hiding (ho ho!), fulltext search (which I worked on), and...  YouTube embedding, I guess.  Most changes have been either bugfixes or configuration.
- Numerous projects have been announced and then forgotten about.  Many of them are of dubious value when FA itself is direly in need of improvement.  Examples include: a "furry" URL shortener, the new UI (unchanged since August 2009), Web hosting, an album populated with FA music, gallery folder support.

Few things actually _happen_.  FA has barely changed in the past four years.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> There have been many other instances where Dragoneer brought substantial improvements to the site, and reaffirmed his status of benefactor. Essentially everything he does is a completely gratuitous contribution.


Every user's presence is a contribution to him, too.  Financial donations are all well and good, but he chose to _own_ the thing, and that means he's responsible for it.  I doubt you could buy gmail and then let it sit and rot without some considerable backlash.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Ha, wikifur! These quotes have no credibility whatsoever. While I have to admit wikifur is sometimes useful, in this case it's just as good as ED.


You could always, say, check the attribution.  I don't know what documentation you expect here; there are no records of deed transfer, just people talking about it on the Internet.

Besides: how could Dragoneer, a non-programmer, possibly have founded a site using custom-built software?  I have no reason to make this up, and your version of events doesn't make a lot of sense.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> If you wish to question me, start by providing your own examples, and I will follow with my own. You have yet to name any of the problems "people" have with Dragoneer's ruling.


 
An easy example is the current problem, where inactive admins are allowed because they're friends, while the few admins that do any/all of the work are threatened.  That is not leadership.  The constant "we're doing something, trust us!" announcements that say nothing.  Ferrox getting scrapped twice due to a complete lack of direction.  Getting hacked, multiple times, then communicating that everything is fine, followed by "oh, wait, it wasn't fine.  we'll get back to you later" and then complete silence.  Saying that, after some admin abuses and questionable practices, that a public policy that admins must follow will be written up and released "soon."  It never comes.  This site makes promises and doesn't deliver.

Again, no obligation to do any of these things.  But if he's trying to run this site for people to use, those are things that must be addressed.  Otherwise, there is no point to FA.  Dragoneer is in the position of leader, but as I said in the other thread, he plays the role of an unskilled PR manager.  Just because he's wearing a leader hat doesn't make him an effective or good one, nor worthy of any praise.

But then again, you advocated, even if as an example, just firing everyone and "quickly promoting" Dragoneer's friends.  We're all posting in a troll thread.  Why are authoritarian fakeposters always the most effective?  Anyway, that journal link proved you wrong and shows you have no idea of the history or context behind what goes on with this site.  Can we get another, better thread that isn't written by a complete tool, for talking about problems that FA faces /without/ putting it in a completely defensive light?


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't think Dragoneer deserves a fair amount of the shit that gets thrown his way - but at the same time, I'm not going to say his own shit doesn't stink. He's fucked up in the past, he'll fuck up in the future; everyone fucks up. Getting called out on his fuck-ups is not the same thing as saying "Dragoneer is the worst person alive", nor is it an attempt to dethrone him from the top of the FA mountain. It's calling him out on the mistakes he's made (or has let his moderators make) without acknowledgement or apology. If he wishes to act as if he's unaccountable and that not even his moderators should call him out on his mistakes, then he will learn that he can be held accountable and that FA will suffer for his inability to put his stubborn ego aside for the best interests of the site.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> And to be sure, I'm not arguing that point. It could be just as easy for Dragoneer to fire those of us who strike and replace us.  And if that happens, then he'll have a very angry userbase on his hands, including myself, who would be speaking out at every opportunity regarding what happened. (and now I can see exactly where Dave Hyena, Eevee, and everyone else is coming from even if I disagree with their methods).
> 
> But just because he *can* do that doesn't make any of it *right*, and that is our point.


The probleme resides in our flawed definition of "wrong" and "right". If someone creates a new country, builds houses, sets up infrastructure, roads, water, electricity, implements healthcare and social care, then removes it all, we only think about these things being taken from us. Instead, we should be glad we had them for a certain time in the first place. This is why the newspapers are constantly filled with "bad" news, and never "good" ones, although the good overpowers the bad by far.

Life is a "bitch" because we have unrealistic expectations of it. If we were a bit more familiar with the "bad" stuff like some people not as lucky as us are, we'd just call it average.



Bobskunk said:


> I'm just going by precedent.  A lot of these things get locked, there are a bunch on the front page of this very subforum.  "Miserable Users" only stayed open because it was also a nasty surprise to many of the forum staff, not just users.


I'm actually quite perplexed by that fact. As soon as admins feel like they've been "threathened personally" (which is clearly not the case), they stop locking threads of useless bickering about random issues. See, this is exactly the reason why Dragoneer wanted to bring them back into the right path.



Arshes Nei said:


> I've been on the site for a pretty long time actually. I know that he inherited the site. He is NOT the founder. I know the people involved like Arcturus who ran it. You're the one who really doesn't know the facts.
> 
> Like I said I was actually at one point one of the debugging staff when enough outrage from the community because the site was a hell of a lot worse than it is now.
> 
> ...


I still can't believe you, especially considering your opinion is biaised and does not conform with mine. Unless you present me some hard facts backed up by a credible institution which I respect already, I will keep disagreeing with you in an entirely reasonable and civilized manner.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Feb 7, 2011)

Fantastic evil entity? Are we talking about Dragoneer or Smaug? 
Being blamed for everything that goes wrong is part of being in charge.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

'Neer can run his site any way he wants in all realities- if people get mad they will stop donating and the site will fall asunder. Over all I am content with how the site is presented- I am; however, DISAPPOINT in how things go on behind the curtain. Sure he is site owner and puts a lot of investment into the site but just because you supply something doesn't mean you have the right to be a dick about somethings.

Also EAM- calling someone out on their small post count makes you look a little presumptuous. Just because "lyke zomg I haz ovar 3k poats I haz better ideaz and experance thn yew" while posting what you consider fact (when it has been proven that you don't know as much about the situation or the background of Fa as you lead on)- it seems a bit over all dumb. Before posting "facts" or laughing about the Wiki provided do some research on the subject before spouting off "truth".


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Then quite simply not only are you a tool, but an idiot. There are links to how long my presense has been on the site. Look up some nice long lived Furaffinity LJ posts.


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I still can't believe you, especially considering your opinion is biaised and does not conform with mine. Unless you present me some hard facts backed up by a credible institution which I respect already, I will keep disagreeing with you in an entirely reasonable and civilized manner.


This is parodic and irrational, not "reasonable and civilized".  Please cite your source for Dragoneer's being the original founder.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Your argument assumes that Neer did all the building, when in fact what he actually did was help out this metaphorical town that was ALREADY building as administration, took over the town when it was leaderless, and then oversaw those living in the town as they continued to build, and did some public service works in the process. He is not the SOLE reason FA exists, and I guarantee you if every user took their ball and went homeâ„¢, FA would die. Fur Affinity is UNSUSTAINABLE without the users here making the community happen and work. That is how a community works, and if the community is respected/wanted at all, then to SOME degree those in charge are held accountable TO that community.



Eevee said:


> This is parodic and irrational, not "reasonable and civilized".  Please cite your source for Dragoneer's being the original founder.



I would "This" this post if my button were there. :/


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

bullshit troll thread, someone make another, there's no productive discussion to be had here.

"I'm actually quite perplexed by that fact. As soon as admins feel like they've been "threathened personally" (which is clearly not the case), they stop locking threads of useless bickering about random issues. See, this is exactly the reason why Dragoneer wanted to bring them back into the right path."

christ.  i'm going to class, latersssssssss

[yt]lZEGsnWZKh8[/yt]


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## kayfox (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> kayfox had offered to help code the site. I can't remember exactly if he finally got the access or if it was one of the things that died. But I've met kayfox in person - he hails from an area I grew up in. We've had our talks too about website improvement.



No, I have not been given the chance.

Trapa and I offered in 2008 or 9, Dragoneer talked great things till the forum we were on was sated, then nothing came of it.

Yak offered a couple months ago, but he has neither answered my queries nor said anything to me otherwise since he said it would be soon a month ago.

Edit:


ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I still can't believe you, especially considering your opinion is biaised and does not conform with mine. Unless you present me some hard facts backed up by a credible institution which I respect already, I will keep disagreeing with you in an entirely reasonable and civilized manner.



Credible institution, furry, WTH?


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> Absolutely.  The "free site" line is trotted out quite a bit, but it reflects a sore misunderstanding of value.  People provide FA with content, network effects, eyeballs on ads, word-of-mouth advertising, goodwill, the joy of owning the biggest furry whatever site, and so forth.  They put their trust in FA.  These things are all valuable, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that FA respects these contributions and responds in kind with reliability, accountability, etc.
> 
> This has never been about what Dragoneer must do; only about what he ought do.


Read my previous reply to Witchie as a reply to the first part of your own post.


Eevee said:


> I wasn't trying to argue anything.  You were responding to an argument that doesn't exist, and I'm stating that a different argument does exist.
> 
> But since you asked, here are some things off the top of my head.
> - FA has been plagued with security problems since the beginning of time.  Dragoneer has made no attempt to have a security audit done or even communicate with people who understand and know of multiple FA security holes.  The attack in December could have been prevented.
> ...


Most of these arguments are based on your personal experiences or values. While you say that Dragoneer isn't responsive to security situations and refuses to hire random people, I'd like you to notice that hiring random people to work for you is a highly dangerous and unprofessional way of proceeding. It'd be very easy for a hacker to destroy the site with the most innocent-looking bit of code. We just don't have the manpower to fix all of the holes currently, and so it's easier to work on a case-by-case basis.

Besides, weren't you the one that hacked FA in December?



Eevee said:


> Besides: how could Dragoneer, a non-programmer, possibly have founded a site using custom-built software?  I have no reason to make this up, and your version of events doesn't make a lot of sense.



I'm not saying he created the website entirely because he founded it. It'd be nigh on impossible for a single man to accomplish such a task, which is why he has an army of programmers and moderators at his command.



Bobskunk said:


> An easy example is the current problem, where inactive admins are allowed because they're friends, while the few admins that do any/all of the work are threatened.  That is not leadership.  The constant "we're doing something, trust us!" announcements that say nothing.  Ferrox getting scrapped twice due to a complete lack of direction.  Getting hacked, multiple times, then communicating that everything is fine, followed by "oh, wait, it wasn't fine.  we'll get back to you later" and then complete silence.  Saying that, after some admin abuses and questionable practices, that a public policy that admins must follow will be written up and released "soon."  It never comes.  This site makes promises and doesn't deliver.
> 
> Again, no obligation to do any of these things.  But if he's trying to run this site for people to use, those are things that must be addressed.  Otherwise, there is no point to FA.  Dragoneer is in the position of leader, but as I said in the other thread, he plays the role of an unskilled PR manager.  Just because he's wearing a leader hat doesn't make him an effective or good one, nor worthy of any praise.


It's simply easier to promote people you personally know and can thrust in than random strangers in an effort to be "unbiased". That's a simple fact of life, and shouldn't be deformed to serve as an aid in petty bickering; chosen mods being friends of Dragoneer/people is simply an inherent quality, and not a determining one.

FA has decided not to do any PR, because some members of the staff have realized that no matter what is said/done/announced, a different group of people will bitch. By eliminating the time that would be wasted discussing issues publicly, the staff can dedicate their time to more valuable tasks, such as meeting the demands of the users.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

That's a real shame kay. I know how much you've wanted to help.

I think the problem is we just don't have a good schedule of things. Like a calendar on how to start scheduling things. We throw in ideas and we follow what Neer wants but I think we need a more clear goal (that is in regards to site programming).

Anyways, it's nice to see you're still around. I know we fell out of contact due to life (not that we had extreme amounts of contact anyways) but I'm happy to know you're here.


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Read my previous reply to Witchie as a reply to the first part of your own post.
> Most of these arguments are based on your personal experiences or values. While you say that Dragoneer isn't responsive to security situations and refuses to hire random people, I'd like you to notice that hiring random people to work for you is a highly dangerous and unprofessional way of proceeding. It'd be very easy for a hacker to destroy the site with the most innocent-looking bit of code. We just don't have the manpower to fix all of the holes currently, and so it's easier to work on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Besides, weren't you the one that hacked FA in December?
> ...



Theres some people that I am friends with that I wouldn't trust with a carton of eggs. And people do it all the time, its called THE HIRING PROCESS


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Then quite simply not only are you a tool, but an idiot. There are links to how long my presense has been on the site. Look up some nice long lived Furaffinity LJ posts.


The LiveJournal entries are made by Dragoneer. I don't see why he would choose to downside the part he played in the creation of the website, and I thus refuse to look at the entires. 


kayfox said:


> Credible institution, furry, WTH?


Exactly my point. There's virtually no way to back up this claim. I'd just have to choose to believe in it, which doesn't make any sense, no matter how many people tell me otherwise. For thousands of years, people believed the earth was flat, yet if everyone started telling me that I wouldn't simply side with them for it.


HyBroMcYenapants said:


> Theres some people that I am friends with that I wouldn't trust with a carton of eggs. And people do it all the time, its called THE HIRING PROCESS


And that's why not _all_ of Dragoneer's friends get promoted; only those suitable for the task are picked, as we can see in the quality of their contributions. Besides, we'd have way too many mods if we did that, seeing as Dragoneer has so many friends.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

He didn't start the site- he was NOT the founder. There are LJ's out there somewhere that tells the epic story of how FA got it's roots. He may have been there but he didn't dig the first shovel full of internet e-dirt out of the preverbal suburb FA is today.

/end


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Besides, weren't you the one that hacked FA in December?


 
Umm actually I know Eevee exposed a flaw in code in December and the main issue was how it was handled. Eevee and I are probably going to disagree if the method was good but afaik he didn't really do any of the big hacks that took place.

In fact the second round of attacks unfortunately lied on poor security by the admins in their accounts, because those were performed by password resets.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Feb 7, 2011)

I like how OP referred to Dragoneer as a "Fantastic Evil Entity".

Makes me think of Dragoneer wearing Joseph's Technicolor Dreamcoat, prancing around while tieing puppies to train tracks.

Hey artists, make the above happen.


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Umm actually I know Eevee exposed a flaw in code in December and the main issue was how it was handled. Eevee and I are probably going to disagree if the method was good but afaik he didn't really do any of the big hacks that took place.
> 
> In fact the second round of attacks unfortunately lied on poor security by the admins in their accounts, because those were performed by password resets.


 See, another instance where the admins were inefficient.

If nobody can perform a simple password reset, how can we trust anyone to run an entire site? I'm sure it wasn't Dragoneer's account that got hacked.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Here's an example of why you are utterly myopic and clueless in this issue: http://community.livejournal.com/furaffinity/2005/12/14/

That doesn't look like Dragoneer to me.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 7, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I like how OP referred to Dragoneer as a "Fantastic Evil Entity".
> 
> Makes me think of Dragoneer wearing Joseph's Technicolor Dreamcoat, prancing around while tieing puppies to train tracks.
> 
> Hey artists, make the above happen.


 but that would probably get you banned
while I only been here for 3 years, even I knew that neer didnt start this site as even he posted a journal on his own FA I believe talking about on how he got a hold of FA


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> but that would probably get you banned
> while I only been here for 3 years, even I knew that neer didnt start this site as even he posted a journal on his own FA I believe talking about on how he got a hold of FA


 
If you wish to argue over dragoneer's ownership of the site, you should start a new thread for it.
I thought we were here to discuss the massive amount of (clearly unjustified) hate Dragoneer seems to get for some obscure reason nobody has explained properly yet.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

It would help if you actually posted factual arguments if you want that to happen. Right now as it is you're seen as a disruptive troll.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I like how OP referred to Dragoneer as a "Fantastic Evil Entity".
> 
> Makes me think of Dragoneer wearing Joseph's Technicolor Dreamcoat, prancing around while tieing puppies to train tracks.
> 
> Hey artists, make the above happen.


 
If I wasn't colorblind I would. Get Gaz in on it.
*
EAM- It takes a team with good, FAIR, and balanced leadership for a website like FA to exist. Claiming 'Neer is the god of it all is stupid. Without the admins and support from his staff the site would have died a long time ago- Most likely in the december attacks. You hold him up on a pedestal like he cannot be touched but the whole thing is a GROUP effort. Start thanking the mods that have it up to elbow deep defraging systems, handling problems, and ect.

 We are first to blame 'Neer because he is the head of it all- he calls the shots. It is like we blame Obama for everything happening now when in reality it is a host of problems. People are going blame who is in charge because ultimately "the buck stops here" with 'Neer. In the end if something fucks up he is leader thus responsible.*


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> If you wish to argue over dragoneer's ownership of the site, you should start a new thread for it.
> I thought we were here to discuss the massive amount of (clearly unjustified) hate Dragoneer seems to get for some obscure reason nobody has explained properly yet.


 Then why the hell you brought up how he is the founder of the site, I do believe you actually have less braincells than me...and thats a bad thing as I'm have been declared the stupidest person on FAF several times.

It doesnt matter as every time we DO present evidence to defeat what you have said, you ignore it stating that its bias.

Every time a group or company fucks up, the blame goes straight to who is in charge, its then probably the person in charge to clear it up, or someone below to do so also.

"You dont blame the Vice President when someone in their group fucked up, as the president controls everyone else below"


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Feb 7, 2011)

And we aren't all just blaming neer for EVERYTHING. Just the attitude he presents make it harder for us to respect him 100%


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Over all I am content with how the site is presented


Ehh, really?  I'm inclined to think people are just numb to FA's idiosyncrasies at this point.  I mean:
- You can't browse past shouts.
- Shouts aren't threaded.  Combined with the above, this means you might end up reading only half of a conversation between two people.
- You can't easily find art by a user that was posted X time ago.
- The browse page only sorts by time, so there's no good mechanism for finding new art you might enjoy.
- Comment nesting is broken.
- Comments and journals aren't paged.  Not only does this make for quite a bit of rendering, but very popular journals with a lot of comments have been known to drag the site down.
- Art previews on userpages are wildly inconsistent from those in the gallery views.  The former is missing the rating color-coded outlines, is missing the medium icons, and renders awkwardly.  The latter is missing timestamps.
- It's impossible to browse through all of a person's art at once.
- Paging is half-broken; you need to use POST buttons that give scary "are you sure you want to resubmit??" warnings when you go back, and there's still a "next" button on the last page.

The site really doesn't do all that much, yet the few things it does are still kind of wonky.




ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> ...


I'm fairly convinced you're just being antagonistic at this point, so let's skip through most of this.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> We just don't have the manpower to fix all of the holes currently, and so it's easier to work on a case-by-case basis.


By which you mean, "wait until someone breaks the site and then hurriedly half-patch the hole, all the while cursing those dirty hackers"?  That's woefully irresponsible.  The manpower was available, risk mitigation was proposed, and it was all turned down.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Besides, weren't you the one that hacked FA in December?


No.  I did the comment hiding exploit in October, which was deliberately designed to be easily reversible.  I don't know who was responsible for the attack in December.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> By eliminating the time that would be wasted discussing issues publicly, the staff can dedicate their time to more valuable tasks, such as meeting the demands of the users.


Please cite evidence that this is happening.




Arshes Nei said:


> Umm actually I know Eevee exposed a flaw in code in December and the main issue was how it was handled. Eevee and I are probably going to disagree if the method was good but afaik he didn't really do any of the big hacks that took place.


The method backfired and didn't really make the point that I wanted, so I can hardly call it "good".  



Arshes Nei said:


> In fact the second round of attacks unfortunately lied on poor security by the admins in their accounts, because those were performed by password resets.


I'm unclear on what was done via XSS in the trouble ticket system and what was done via admin password resets.  The latter is more difficult to prevent, but there are perfectly reasonable safeguards that would have at least mitigated the damage.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Oh wait nvm this is FrancisBlack aren't you like 14 or something?


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

HyBroMcYenapants said:


> And we aren't all just blaming neer for EVERYTHING. Just the attitude he presents make it harder for us to respect him 100%


 Agreed.

Respect is earned. When you start being a dick to those who devote their time and resources into a project they are not even getting paid for then you will lose the respect. Respect is hard to gain but easy as shit to lose.

To Eevee- I am only content because it is all we have. Sure I wish somethings were better but I am not paying out of pocket for it so I won't look a gift horse in the mouth. Would be awesome for the fixes you mentioned to come into effect; however, most people are ok with it because it is all we have.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> See, another instance where the admins were inefficient.


 
And gee, it it a wonder why I and other staff members want them off the team?


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> It would help if you actually posted factual arguments if you want that to happen. Right now as it is you're seen as a disruptive troll.


I'm merely restating most if not all of what Dragoneer said himself at one time or another. (Except for him creating the website, but he doesn't really need to expand on that as it's common knowledge.)
Are you essentially calling Dragoneer a disruptive troll?



Arshes Nei said:


> Oh wait nvm this is FrancisBlack aren't you like 14 or something?


I'm actually fifteen now, miss. I hope you learn it right.


----------



## kayfox (Feb 7, 2011)

So, why am I pissed off at Dragoneer?

Because Im tired be being led on and lied to.  Simple reason huh?  

In the interest of me not ranting for hours, lets keep this recent, in 2009 I was involved in a discussion with Dragoneer by Trapa about the issues with the passwords being sent in the clear.  Trapa had independantly arrived at a solution like NRR's and described both to the vfur mailing list along wiht some choice snippets from conversations with the administration.  In private conversation an offer was made from the FA administration to allow Trapa and myself access to review the code and we imagined going over it carefully during some slow weekends or something.  

Nowdays we have really little time to do anything extra like this.  So, months passed and we considered the offer stagnant and not gonna happen.  This very issue I brought up with the administration in something like 2006 after finding out just how easy it was to do (you could do it with Cain with one modification to the form field filter).   And was told by Dragoneer that he was buying a SSL cert right then... so yeah, not fixed for years.   After this Trapa and myself concluded that because of the data used in our application we would skip suing this password hashing scheme and just use SSL in the whole app.

So fast forward a dozen issues and stuff to somewhere in later 2009, FA goes down because of lightning and a bunch of people are kicked out of #furaffinity, at some point Im soft kicked, as in I remain in the channel but will be k/b when I try to rejoin, I notice this and part/join and am k/b..  later more people are k/b for asking why I was.  This was all done through ChanServ without any identification of who did it.  I complain to Pinkuh and she says nothing, later SnowPony tells me that if I talk to Pinkuh again I will be GLined.  I ask Dragoneer about the whole thing the next day and he says he was told it never happened.

And now we continue to October of 2010, after sucessfully managing a thousand plus attendee furry convention, I watch as Eevee is ostracised for pointing out issues with FA and later getting impatient with the buck passing and exploiting those in a reversable manner to prove his point.

Then in December, the site gets compromised.  I offer to help, Im told they will consider me, then nothing for a while.   I asked again at some point in January and am told they are working on getting things read for outsiders to contribute.  Ive asked again often since then and Yak has never said a word to me, I dont particularly like being ignored when Im offering to help, but this is pretty aggrivating because they are crying that they need help on one end, telling people that they dont need help on another and saying everything is fine to their users.

Im under the impression that Im likely to be turned down because they dont trust me, the product Trapa and I work on is a registration system used by some of the larger cons in the furry fandom and some pretty large scifi cons.  If I can be trusted with furries personal information, and running a large furry convention, than why cant I be trusted to look at the code of a popular furry website?


----------



## HyBroMcYenapants (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I'm merely restating most if not all of what Dragoneer said himself at one time or another. (Except for him creating the website, but he doesn't really need to expand on that as it's common knowledge.)
> Are you essentially calling Dragoneer a disruptive troll?
> 
> I'm actually fifteen now, miss. I hope you learn it right.



As for the troll thing she was talking about YOU. And being 15 dosen't qualify you as mastergeniusiknowwhathefuckisgoingon person also. God you are being myopic.


----------



## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Please stop acknowledging the OP; it'll accomplish nothing.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

HyBroMcYenapants said:


> As for the troll thing she was talking about YOU. And being 15 dosen't qualify you as mastergeniusiknowwhathefuckisgoingon person also. God you are being myopic.


 
I know that. My defence is that I'm simply taking over Dragoneer's arguments, and thus (blargh I can't think of a word, telling me I'm stupid for thinking/saying these things) on them is essientialy a indirect form of directly calling _him_ out.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> I'm unclear on what was done via XSS in the trouble ticket system and what was done via admin password resets.  The latter is more difficult to prevent, but there are perfectly reasonable safeguards that would have at least mitigated the damage.



That I agree with. 

I think one of the things I want to know is that a lot of people make suggestions, but I think one thing not though out as time. Given there's no time frame by others of how it's supposed to be implemented, phases stages etc....all of us right now...critics and administration...we're all talk.

If it was set with someone who can be a project manager who understands how much time it takes to re-code and implement I think we can get a lot further than all this arguing like the Hatfields and McCoys over the years


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Facts- learn them before you post OP. It might be wise for to just stop posting because you don't add anything constructive to validate your "argument". If it is an attempt to White Knight you are failing badly.

'Neer is a leader- leaders are in charge- therefore if something goes wrong they are blamed because in the end they are in charge and responsible. It is not a hard concept to grasp.


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Facts- learn them before you post OP. It might be wise for to just stop posting because you don't add anything constructive to validate your "argument". If it is an attempt to White Knight you are failing badly.
> 
> 'Neer is a leader- leaders are in charge- therefore if something goes wrong they are blamed because in the end they are in charge and responsible. It is not a hard concept to grasp.


You seem to be missing the point of this argumentation. I'm saying that Dragoneer isn't wrong. Thus, there's no "blame" to take as a leader.



Arshes Nei said:


> That I agree with.
> 
> I think one of the things I want to know is that a lot of people make suggestions, but I think one thing not though out as time. Given there's no time frame by others of how it's supposed to be implemented, phases stages etc....all of us right now...critics and administration...we're all talk.
> 
> If it was set with someone who can be a project manager who understands how much time it takes to re-code and implement I think we can get a lot further than all this arguing like the Hatfields and McCoys over the years


 
Dragoneer is exactly that project manager you're talking of. When he tells you to "can it and go back to work", he's merely trying to get people more organized, more quickly, in a better way. Now of course, if everyone starts freaking out because he's giving actual orders, it will be pretty hard for him to get anything done.

Besides, he's so knowledgeable


----------



## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I think one of the things I want to know is that a lot of people make suggestions, but I think one thing not though out as time.


This sentence seems to have gotten mangled!



Arshes Nei said:


> Given there's no time frame by others of how it's supposed to be implemented, phases stages etc....all of us right now...critics and administration...we're all talk.


Nah; I'm a developer too, remember.  My sense of how much time anything will take isn't exactly the most reliable, but I can tell the difference between an afternoon project and a month project.  There are a lot of problems with FA that could be knocked out in a couple hours (each).


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> Nah; I'm a developer too, remember.  My sense of how much time anything will take isn't exactly the most reliable, but I can tell the difference between an afternoon project and a month project.  There are a lot of problems with FA that could be knocked out in a couple hours (each).


The problem there is the way the staff always gets ahead of themselves and announce projects with an estimate ETA without having an actual, precise ETA. 
 If people knew adding a captcha verification to a website was a matter of months, and not seconds, they wouldn't have been as irritated after registration remained disabled for half a year. And let's look at it realistically, it doesn't simply take a "few years" to develop an entire application to replace FA. Fake announcements at work again!

Thankfully, FA seems to have resolved that problem recently by getting over the need to do any PR completely.


----------



## kayfox (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> You seem to be missing the point of this argumentation. I'm saying that Dragoneer isn't wrong. Thus, there's no "blame" to take as a leader.


 
A leader MUST take all the blame, right AND wrong.   Surely as Her Majesty the Queen, you would know.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> You seem to be missing the point of this *argumentation*. I'm saying that Dragoneer isn't wrong. Thus, there's no "blame" to take as a leader.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
WTF is an *argumentation*?

 He runs the site- he is site owner- that makes him _leader_. That makes him responsible for the shit that goes wrong. So an owner is not responsible for its dog should it bite someone? They _own_ the dog. He _owns_ the site. Your "*argumentations*" are invalid.

*Someone please tell me this is just a failed trolling attempt- the fact they are serious in their post makes me lose more faith in the internet than is needed.*


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

kayfox said:


> A leader MUST take all the blame, right AND wrong.   Surely as Her Majesty the Queen, you would know.


 Are you saying I should be able to start a revolution by basing myself entirely on fallacies?


dinosaurdammit said:


> WTF is an argumentation?
> 
> He runs the site- he is site owner- that makes him leader. That makes him responsible for the shit that goes wrong. So an owner is not responsible for its dog should it bite someone? They own the dog. He owns the site. Your "argumentations" are invalid.


 The owner is responsible. That doesn't make it as if he bit the person himself.

The dog should be put to rest (in this case the admins who did the threathening), not the owner.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Are you saying I should be able to start a revolution by basing myself entirely on fallacies?
> 
> The owner is responsible. That doesn't make it as if he bit the person himself.
> 
> The dog should be put to rest (in this case the admins who did the threathening), not the owner.


 
Your level of comprehension should be banned from the internet. 

The owner is *ALWAYS* responsible. Not the dog. Learn laws.

He owns the site so he is responsible for what happens or does not happen in it. If he managed to do something praise worthy you would shower him with praise though something bad comes up and you want it swept under the rug because he can do no wrong? A leader takes the praise and the punishment. Thats life for you. You cannot pick and choose when to accept praise and when to ignore something that failed.

The admins have every right considering they are busting metaphorical nut sacks to keep this boat afloat. Hard to do when the hole is getting bigger and you only have a thimble to scoop out what is flooding in.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> This sentence seems to have gotten mangled!
> 
> 
> Nah; I'm a developer too, remember.  My sense of how much time anything will take isn't exactly the most reliable, but I can tell the difference between an afternoon project and a month project.  There are a lot of problems with FA that could be knocked out in a couple hours (each).


 
Sorry about that Eevee, the product of getting old ;_; - I meant to say one thing that is rarely mentioned or thought out on is time. 

Rarely have I ever seen estimates on how something can be fixed or improved. I usually see a bunch of talk from both sides if you can understand where I'm getting at.

Some changes i know can be done really quickly - like allowing more admins access to the Wiki and letting them, like I allow the forum mods to work on changing and revamping rules. Others might be longer due to unforeseen circumstances.

The other problem is there has to be a level where you can't get overly critical. I know there are mistakes that shouldn't be made, but you have to allow them to be made in a sense on a volunteer site. This isn't some veteran pros going around or business moguls, they're regular users. It's kinda like art too, you gotta let n00bs make mistakes and not rip them a new asshole but educate them better so they learn. Now I'm not advocating complete incompetence but it has been a far long problem on the other side of this where people make mountains out of molehills and that causes a freeze where people can't see eye to eye. 

I know though it takes a certain kind of temperament to handle all of this but sometimes I do wish people would lay off a bit on the over-criticism.


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Your level of comprehension should be banned from the internet.
> 
> The owner is *ALWAYS* responsible. Not the dog. Learn laws.
> 
> ...


If you're wishing to make a successful analogy, don't bring in laws that apply only to one of your elements. There's no "internet laws" or "project manager" laws, so to speak.

Once again, I'm saying the job of the owner is to solve the problem, and not take the blame. Since you can't "unbite" people, you offer compensation, and (are forced to) put the dog to sleep. You don't put the owner to sleep, clearly.

In conclusion, if the mods are so unsatisfied by the way the site is being run by Dragoneer, they should simply remove themselves from the staff and let other people fill in for them.


----------



## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> If you're wishing to make a successful analogy, don't bring in laws that apply only to one of your elements. There's no "internet laws" or "project manager" laws, so to speak.
> 
> Once again, I'm saying the job of the owner is to solve the problem, and not take the blame. Since you can't "unbite" people, you offer compensation, and (are forced to) put the dog to sleep. You don't put the owner to sleep, clearly.
> 
> In conclusion, if the mods are so unsatisfied by the way the site is being run by Dragoneer, they should simply remove themselves from the staff and let other people fill in for them.


 
Except we're here to help the site, and removing ourselves from the site does nothing to solve the issue and everything to make it worse. Quitting in protest does nothing in this case except deprive the site of admins who care and are actually giving a damn and trying to do something, and doesn't directly do anything abotu the root cause of head administration of the site allowing deadbeat admins to stay on board and do nothing.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> If you're wishing to make a successful analogy, don't bring in laws that apply only to one of your elements. There's no "internet laws" or "project manager" laws, so to speak.
> 
> Once again, I'm saying the job of the owner is to solve the problem, and not take the blame. Since you can't "unbite" people, you offer compensation, and (are forced to) put the dog to sleep. You don't put the owner to sleep, clearly.
> 
> In conclusion, if the mods are so unsatisfied by the way the site is being run by Dragoneer, they should simply remove themselves from the staff and let other people fill in for them.


 

If you happen to have a thesaurus laying around I suggest you look up "dumb" as the following words apply to all of your post.

They are unsatisfied because they pull a ton of shit for the deadweights and nothing is ever done by your "project manager". In a business situation if that were to happen- the "PM" refusing to correct a problem would be removed, not the people working their hardest.


----------



## ArielMT (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> In conclusion, if the mods are so unsatisfied by the way the site is being run by Dragoneer, they should simply remove themselves from the staff and let other people fill in for them.


 
Oh, hello there.  I'm a brand new administrator who is filling in for an administrator who left (take your pick who, it really is meaningless), and the core problems remain.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> Oh, hello there.  I'm a brand new administrator who is filling in for an administrator who left (take your pick who, it really is meaningless), and the core problems remain.


 
Exactly. You don't replace a working part and ignore the underlying problem. It is also dumb to replace the whole engine on a car when only the water pump refuses to do its share of the work load and do its job. Fix what is broken (kick deadweights out) and the other parts won't be exposed to so much stress(excessive TTS), thus lasting longer and being more efficient.


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> Oh, hello there.  I'm a brand new administrator who is filling in for an administrator who left (take your pick who, it really is meaningless), and the core problems remain.





Witchiebunny said:


> Except we're here to help the site, and removing ourselves from the site does nothing to solve the issue and everything to make it worse. Quitting in protest does nothing in this case except deprive the site of admins who care and are actually giving a damn and trying to do something, and doesn't directly do anything abotu the root cause of head administration of the site allowing deadbeat admins to stay on board and do nothing.


 I'm not saying that you should leave "in protest", but that you should leave to let new admins come in.

The core problem comes from the fact that FA has an inefficient staff. If everything is shittily done, it isn't Dragoneer's fault. Dragoneer doesn't do anything in himself (except inspire us by letting us bask in his glory), so if something happens, it's related to the admins. If Dragoneer is to blame, it would be because he didn't replace the admins properly to deal with the issue, which is his responsiblity as a project leader.

If you wish to help him, I advise all of you to leave the forums and the website.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I'm not saying that you should leave "in protest", but that you should leave to let new admins come in.
> 
> The core problem comes from the fact that FA has an inefficient staff. If everything is shittily done, it isn't Dragoneer's fault. Dragoneer doesn't do anything in himself (except inspire us by letting us bask in his glory), so if something happens, it's related to the admins. If Dragoneer is to blame, it would be because he didn't replace the admins properly to deal with the issue, which is his responsiblity as a project leader.
> 
> If you wish to help him, I advise all of you to leave the forums and the website.


 
First stop with the asspats to 'Neer. It does not make you look cool, just ill informed. *Second- if the admins doing work left and new ones came in the core problem of DEADWEIGHT (what are you not understanding here) ADMINS remains.* *You don't accomplish anything*. 

*That is like shooting the healthy cart horse over the lame, sick, half dead one.
*
*SENSE- START MAKING IT.*


----------



## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I'm not saying that you should leave "in protest", but that you should leave to let new admins come in.
> 
> The core problem comes from the fact that FA has an inefficient staff. If everything is shittily done, it isn't Dragoneer's fault. Dragoneer doesn't do anything in himself (except inspire us by letting us bask in his glory), so if something happens, it's related to the admins. If Dragoneer is to blame, it would be because he didn't replace the admins properly to deal with the issue, which is his responsiblity as a project leader.
> 
> If you wish to help him, I advise all of you to leave the forums and the website.



Now I know you're trolling.


----------



## Aden (Feb 7, 2011)

I propose that the Black Eyed Peas' halftime show ruined FA.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Now I know you're trolling.


 
Since this thread is getting no where and OP cannot understand what the underlying cause is can this be closed?

They don't even know what the admins' problems are after you guys took the effort to explain it in excruciating detail the main problems and 'Neer's involvement.

We are wrestling with a pig, we and the pig are getting muddy, nothing is being accomplished, but the pig is enjoying it.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (Feb 7, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> First stop with the asspats to 'Neer. It does not make you look cool, just ill informed. *Second- if the admins doing work left and new ones came in the core problem of DEADWEIGHT (what are you not understanding here) ADMINS remains.* *You don't accomplish anything*.
> 
> *That is like shooting the healthy cart horse over the lame, sick, half dead one.
> *
> *SENSE- START MAKING IT.*


 
BIG FUCKI WORDELS - *FRESH* PRODUCE NOT LIKE FROM CHEAP JEW STORE!
No Visa or I kill you!


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## Aden (Feb 7, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> We are wrestling with a pig, we and the pig are getting muddy, nothing is being accomplished, but the pig is enjoying it.


 
murrr


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## Grimfang (Feb 7, 2011)

stop derailing trollthread :[


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## LizardKing (Feb 7, 2011)

Had Godwin's Law come into play yet? 

Oh wait that was in the OP wasn't it.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Aden said:


> murrr


 
It is a lie- there is no mud in Tucson.

YOU GOT TROLLED.

Suppose you could wrestle a bark scorpion in a patch of cactus. I managed to walk into two barrel cacti yesterday- the wildlife here intends to harm you.


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## Browder (Feb 7, 2011)

Please stay on topic or I will have to lock this thread.


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## Iudicium_86 (Feb 7, 2011)

A 15yo telling us to bask in 'neer's "glory" and how chains of command should work. mfw


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## Grimfang (Feb 7, 2011)

This thread should really be closed. It was intended to be a waste of people's time and caring. :\


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Indeed.

It's kind of a shame because it's nice to be able to talk to Eevee and Kayfox where it's not part of some "No U" fest amongst staff and them


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