# Man vs. Hedgehog



## Seizure Puppy (Nov 24, 2008)

Okay, so the character battles to this point stand with Kratos winning the popular vote, while the Prince won the argument of who would win in a fight. 

Master Chief and Samus tied for both, and now we're moving onto two new subjects, Mario and Sonic.

I have  a few more character ideas, we might have a faceoff against the winners, and then I'll start doing other types, like best music or best gameplay.

The way it'll work is the poll is for who you _like_ more, and then you argue for who would win in a fight...and before anyone says it, no having two level 9's fight on Brawl would accurately depict the outcome.

I like Mario more, and I think he will win...


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2008)

Mario.

I dislike the Sonic character as a gamer and as a furry.  The Sonic games were great, but Sonic is one of the most annoyingly smug little punk-ass bitches in platform gaming (just behind Gex I think).  And let's not get started on the porn.

I think Mario's a cool guy, he stomps the Goomba and doesn't afraid of anything.


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## X (Nov 24, 2008)

anyone who has played brawl will know.

mario!


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## TwilightV (Nov 24, 2008)

I have nothing against Sonic, but I pratically grew up with Mario.


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## CaptainCool (Nov 24, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> I have nothing against Sonic, but I pratically grew up with Mario.



me too, ive never played a sonic game back then.
i just... dont like him :/ i dont know why... but sega fucked him up pretty badly over the last few years as well...


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## pheonix (Nov 24, 2008)

Mario hands down. 

He's the greatest video game hero, there's no such thing as Mario losing.


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## Kajet (Nov 24, 2008)

In a fight of two people who defeat their enemies by jumping on them I'm gonna go with the person with spikes on their head.

Yes I ripped that off of Yahtzee.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 24, 2008)

Mario also has a hammer, and can use physical blows...he doesn't just jump on things. Also, I'm pretty sure his boots would protect him from Sonic's hair spikes.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Mario also has a hammer, and can use physical blows...he doesn't just jump on things. Also, I'm pretty sure his boots would protect him from Sonic's hair spikes.



He can throw fireballs.  Game set match.


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## Kuekuatsheu (Nov 24, 2008)

Sonic should die in a fire


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## Shark_the_raptor (Nov 24, 2008)

Mario.

He kicks (stomps) ass.


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## Enigmaticat (Nov 24, 2008)

I saw this coming. Mario = balance. Sonic = speed.


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## Xero108 (Nov 24, 2008)

Mario. Just because he's involved in most of the games I enjoyed playing the most in my life.


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## Kangamutt (Nov 24, 2008)

The moment Mario gets his hands on a 'shroom, Sonic will be nothing more than a wad of gum stuck to the sole of his shoe. Blue and red gum.


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## Art Vulpine (Nov 24, 2008)

I've been on both sides of the fence with this debate.

My first game system was a Sega Genesis, so I practically grew up with Sonic.

Then I got an N64 and crossed over to the Nintendo side.

Then at Game Cube I got to play Sonic games again.

I don't mind Sonic.

However I think mario would win.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2008)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> The moment Mario gets his hands on a 'shroom, Sonic will be nothing more than a wad of gum stuck to the sole of his shoe. Blue and red gum.



And the macro-crushing-Sonicfags will get off.


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## GrundMoon (Nov 24, 2008)

I never had a nitendo... i haved a mega drive and my first game was the first Sonic...so my vote goes for Sonic...


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## Kangamutt (Nov 24, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> And the macro-crushing-Sonicfags will get off.



LMAO.


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## AlexX (Nov 24, 2008)

The Brawl tier list states that if Mario and Sonic were at roughly the same skill level at the highest level of play, Mario would win.

However, assuming we're talking about a more realistic duel... Erm, has it ever been stated by a CANON source exactly how fast Sonic is? Mario may be balanced in all fields of combat, but if Sonic truly can run at the speed of sound, being slightly weaker won't matter too much.

If we go by their stats in each of their RPG games, Sonic still has the advantage because although Mario has no weaknesses in any of them, he doesn't really excel anywhere, either. Meanwhile, Sonic is also balanced in his stats, but with a notable specialty in speed (not to mention he can attack three times in a single combat round...).

As much as I prefer the plumber, it looks like he's at a bit of a disadvantage in a fair fight...


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 24, 2008)

If you compare the games though, you will see that Mario is not only rather quick, but he is also incredibly strong. He can throw Bowser around easily, and his jumping ability is quite impressive. 

Sonic may be fast, but he's also pretty weak, and fragile in comparison. Add on Mario's fireballs, and he would be able to stop anything Sonic had.


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## AlexX (Nov 24, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Sonic may be fast, but he's also pretty weak, and fragile in comparison.


But Sonic has destroyed well-built machines that any lesser animal would have been captured by and used as a power source for. They are clearly well-built to be able to turn a whole area(zone) into a dangerous place so quickly, so the fact Sonic can not only break through their layers of metal armor to shatter them, but also with enough precision as to not harm the animal powering it says that not only is Sonic pretty strong physically, but also very skillful.

Fragility? Rings protect Sonic as much as Mushrooms protect Mario. It would be about even if not for the fact Sonic can run around to grab at least one ring he ends up dropping to protect himself with.

Fireballs don't matter much if Sonic can just run around to avoid them. They're not fast in any of the games Mario has been in, and speed has always been Sonic's specialty. If he truly can go at the speed of sound, then he just needs a little starting momentum and he can easily adapt some hit-and-run techniques that Mario won't have enough time to react to.


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## Magikian (Nov 24, 2008)

Mario...

Because Sonic annoys the ever-living shit out of me.


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## AlexX (Nov 24, 2008)

I fear too many people are voting in this poll based on which has had the more successful stream of games rather than who'd legitimately win in a fight...


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2008)

AlexX said:


> I fear too many people are voting in this poll based on which has had the more successful stream of games rather than who'd legitimately win in a fight...



Mario would win.  He's winning in the poll because he would win the fight.


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## AlexX (Nov 24, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Mario would win.  He's winning in the poll because he would win the fight.


How? If Sonic really is as fast as the speed of sound there's really not much Mario can do against him... >.>


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## X (Nov 24, 2008)

AlexX said:


> How? If Sonic really is as fast as the speed of sound there's really not much Mario can do against him... >.>



he could trip him :twisted:

sonic would die going at that speed and then tripping. if sonic were real, and could run at the speed of sound, his skin would tear off, and his eyes would implode. unless his skin is made of super slick glass, and his eyes are covered by some sort of eye ware, not to mention that he couldn't breathe while running that fast. he would kill himself before even getting close to mario. physics kills sonic off.


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## AlexX (Nov 24, 2008)

half-witted fur said:


> *stuff*


I said speed of SOUND, not light. It's not as fast as light, but it's still pretty darn fast.


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## X (Nov 24, 2008)

AlexX said:


> I said speed of SOUND, not light. It's not as fast as light, but it's still pretty darn fast.



if you went at the speed of sound unprotected your skin would come off, and you would burn from the friction of the air traveling over you. and your eyes would implode.


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## AlexX (Nov 24, 2008)

half-witted fur said:


> if you went at the speed of sound unprotected your skin would come off, and you would burn from the friction of the air traveling over you. and your eyes would implode.


And being in outer space without some sort of spacesuit should also kill you, but Sonic experiences no problems in space with just his gloves and shoes. Super Paper Mario showed the plumber needs some kind of helmet to survive in space. As such, we can assume Sonic is a bit more durable as far as surviving harsh environments goes.

Plus there's the fact Sonic didn't just get his powers recently... as far as we can tell he's had them his entire life. I think it's safe to say he's gotten used to moving at absurd speeds without experiencing the effects most of us would have by now.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 25, 2008)

Actually the poll is based on who is liked more, the argument is who you think will win.

In the 2-D games Mario had the interesting ability to survive indefinitely underwater, while Sonic did not...so by that logic, Mario can survive harsher environments, and in Super Mario 64, while he did lose air by being in the water, as soon as he got a breath all of his health was restored, so all Mario needs to do is be by water to continuously gain health.

Sonic may be advertised at moving at the speed of sound, but judging from the games, he doesn't seem to be able to move anywhere close to that speed.

Mario can also fly. Cape.


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## Imperial Impact (Nov 25, 2008)

Mario.

Cuz, Sonic is already dead....


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## Runeaddyste (Nov 25, 2008)

sonic, he can survive a dead console, but the CDI prooves the mario will suck if nintendo went down.


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## Imperial Impact (Nov 25, 2008)

Runeaddyste said:


> sonic, he can survive a dead console, but the CDI prooves the mario will suck if nintendo went down.








What?


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## TwilightV (Nov 25, 2008)

Runeaddyste said:


> sonic, he can survive a dead console, but the CDI prooves the mario will suck if nintendo went down.



Oh really? Do I need to mention 4Kids? :twisted:


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## TwilightV (Nov 25, 2008)

AlexX said:


> And being in outer space without some sort of spacesuit should also kill you, but Sonic experiences no problems in space with just his gloves and shoes. Super Paper Mario showed the plumber needs some kind of helmet to survive in space. As such, we can assume Sonic is a bit more durable as far as surviving harsh environments goes.
> 
> Plus there's the fact Sonic didn't just get his powers recently... as far as we can tell he's had them his entire life. I think it's safe to say he's gotten used to moving at absurd speeds without experiencing the effects most of us would have by now.



Super Mario Galaxy aka Mario IN SPACE.


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## X (Nov 25, 2008)

> Artist Naoto ÅŒshima, designer Hirokazu Yasuhara and programmer Yuji Naka are generally credited with the creation of the character,[7] a blue 15-year-old anthropomorphic hedgehog, who has the ability to run faster than Mach 1[8] and the ability to curl up into a ball, primarily to attack enemies. This is a major part of the gameplay of the series.



although he would have to have an air compressor hooked up to his lungs to even breathe traveling at those speeds. and i guess his eyes are covered by some sort of contact lens so he can see running that fast.


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## Kukilunestar (Nov 25, 2008)

Perverted Impact said:


> What?



THIS.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 25, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Perverted Impact*
> 
> 
> ...


THAT.

Going by both the general opinion, and the poll, I'm guessing Mario is the winner...by a lot. I'll give it another hour or two to see if anything changes...and then I guess I'll be moving on.


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## Kukilunestar (Nov 25, 2008)

The only thing good about Sonic Unleashed is teh running. -_-

Mario FTW.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 25, 2008)

Sonic, cause I rather enjoyed the Sonic SatAm show over the Super Mario Show XD

DAMN YOU POWER RANGERS, YOU KILLED SatAM...now were stuck with the gay 4kids one...fuck this I'm gonna watch Jap Sonic X


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## Foxstar (Nov 25, 2008)

It depends on WHAT canon your going by too, the official Sonic Team canon or the laughably bad Archie Sonic canon. Regardless in both, Sonic does not move by the speed of sound at all times. Typically he only moves that fast when he's Super Sonic.

Mario's 'canon' history isn't much better, but he's been fleshed out a hell of a lot better then Sonic.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 25, 2008)

Foxstar said:


> It depends on WHAT canon your going by too, the *official Sonic Team canon or the laughably bad Archie Sonic canon. *Regardless in both, Sonic does not move by the speed of sound at all times. Typically he only moves that fast when he's Super Sonic.
> 
> Mario's 'canon' history isn't much better, but he's been fleshed out a hell of a lot better then Sonic.


sadly both Canon have touched each other, and you forget before Sonic Team had full rights to sonic it was Sega who did the story for Sonic and that cause each region to have a different story, Sonic Team when They got Rights to Sonic realized now they have to have a single story for all regions working off what Sega left them


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## Tycho (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Mario can also fly. Cape.



And bunny ears.  (Game Boy, Super Mario Land 2 I think)

And raccoon suit/tanooki suit.  (SMB 3)

And winged cap.  (SM64)


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## AlexX (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> In the 2-D games Mario had the interesting ability to survive indefinitely underwater, while Sonic did not...so by that logic, Mario can survive harsher environments, and in Super Mario 64, while he did lose air by being in the water, as soon as he got a breath all of his health was restored, so all Mario needs to do is be by water to continuously gain health.


Aren't there bubbles coming from the ground in certain places for the 2D Mario games? If anything it shows Sonic can make use of what's around him to survive even in places where he isn't at his best.



> Sonic may be advertised at moving at the speed of sound, but judging from the games, he doesn't seem to be able to move anywhere close to that speed.


Let's be reasonable, here... If Sonic really moved at the speed of sound in the games, he'd be far too difficult to control.



> Mario can also fly. Cape.


Super Sonic. Does he really need anything else?


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 25, 2008)

AlexX said:


> Super Sonic. Does he really need anything else?



Invincibility Star. Does he really need anything else?


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## Magikian (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Invincibility Star. Does he really need anything else?



^ This.


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## AlexX (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Invincibility Star. Does he really need anything else?


The starman's effect lasts 10 seconds. Super Sonic lasts for as long as Sonic has rings. Reasonably, Sonic will be super for longer.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 25, 2008)

AlexX said:


> The starman's effect lasts 10 seconds. Super Sonic lasts for as long as Sonic has rings. Reasonably, Sonic will be super for longer.


^this


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 25, 2008)

It will ALWAYS last for ten seconds though. Hypothetically, Super Sonic could go as low as 1 second if he doesn't have very many rings. Additionally, Mario can use the Starman consecutively, and he gains no penalty for even one use. Once Super Sonic's effect wears out, he's dead.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> It will ALWAYS last for ten seconds though. Hypothetically, Super Sonic could go as low as 1 second if he doesn't have very many rings. Additionally, Mario can use the Starman consecutively, and he gains no penalty for even one use. Once Super Sonic's effect wears out, he's dead.


=3 again it last as long he has rings
1 ring per second
to turn super he needs 50 so he can be in that form for 50 seconds

but your right once hes out of rings Sonic ish screwed. Mario can still continue to use stars as long he has em too.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 25, 2008)

Forgot the 50 thing...

But either way, I'm pretty sure their super forms cancel each other out, or close to it, and since Mario won the regular combat, I think it's over for Sonic.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Forgot the 50 thing...
> 
> But either way, I'm pretty sure their super forms cancel each other out, or close to it, and since Mario won the regular combat, I think it's over for Sonic.


Break Dancing Competition to solve this then

but yea The Plumber(who never does his job) seem to have this won, next match up...Mario Vs Luigi anyone?


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## AlexX (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> But either way, I'm pretty sure their super forms cancel each other out, or close to it, and since Mario won the regular combat, I think it's over for Sonic.


Mario wins the polls due to having a better stream of games, but who'd win in an actual battle is still yet to be decided (or at least it is following the theme that the poll and discussion have been seperate in these topics...).


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 25, 2008)

No...the Super Sonic thing was the Sonic defenders last point, and that was eliminated from effectiveness. Sonic's speed isn't insanely higher than Mario's, and Mario definitely has him beat in both variety of abilities, and sheer physical prowess. I'm moving on.


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## AlexX (Nov 25, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> No...the Super Sonic thing was the Sonic defenders last point, and that was eliminated from effectiveness. Sonic's speed isn't insanely higher than Mario's, and Mario definitely has him beat in both variety of abilities, and sheer physical prowess. I'm moving on.


What are you talking about? I don't get where everyone is getting the idea that Sonic is somehow weak and frail when he's clearly strong and durable in all his games. Specifically, he can take as many hits as he needs as long as he has at least one ring (and don't say Mario can get hit as much as long as he has a mushroom, because rings are considerably more common than mushrooms), plus he breaks through well-built machines using only his body and momentum.

And since when is Sonic "not insanely faster" than Mario? He's always been depicted going at insane speeds. The fact he doesn't in the actual games just shows he knows to control his power to avoid going faster than what is safe for the situation.


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## Imperial Impact (Nov 26, 2008)

Old Sonic=/=New Sonic


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Perverted Impact said:


> Old Sonic=/=New Sonic


According to the Sonic RPG he's still pretty strong. He doesn't really have any stats he's weak in, including strength and defense.


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## Imperial Impact (Nov 26, 2008)

But it's the same game with the "_WATCH OUT FOR THAT ARMADILLO!"_
Also this "Sonic RPG' was _not _japan made.


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Perverted Impact said:


> But it's the same game with the "_WATCH OUT FOR THAT ARMADILLO!"_


Because "DO A BARREL ROLL" was such a terrible thing for Starfox 64, amirite?



> Also this "Sonic RPG' was _not _japan made.


It was licensed by Sega. It's canon.


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## Imperial Impact (Nov 26, 2008)

No, Barrel roll is move not some random talk.

That's like saying the Mega Man PC is canon.


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Perverted Impact said:


> No, Barrel roll is move not some random talk.


It pretty much is since there's little reason to use it at the time Peppy says it (unless you're a newbie, of course).



> That's like saying the Mega Man PC is canon.


Megaman PC is not listed on Capcom's list of official Megaman games. Sonic Dark Chronicles is on Sega's list of official Sonic games. Check the websites.


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## Imperial Impact (Nov 26, 2008)

A move is a move unlike "WATCH OUT FOR THAT ARMADILLO!" 


Hi tech expression made Mega Man PC in 1990~1993. But then again Mega Man isn't dead yet.


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Perverted Impact said:


> A move is a move unlike "WATCH OUT FOR THAT ARMADILLO!"


You're using a single quote to justify hating an awesome game. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.



> Hi tech expression made Mega Man PC in 1990~1993. But then again Mega Man isn't dead yet.


Dodge my point entirely, why don't you?


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## Neothumper (Nov 26, 2008)

sonic would win and i don't care who says otherwise

mario is a fat italian plumber... a PLUMBER!!!


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Neothumper said:


> sonic would win and i don't care who says otherwise
> 
> mario is a fat italian plumber... a PLUMBER!!!


Eh, if there's anything I've learned in the past few months it's that no plumbers do any actual plumbing anymore.


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## Neothumper (Nov 26, 2008)

AlexX said:


> Eh, if there's anything I've learned in the past few months it's that no plumbers do any actual plumbing anymore.



which would only make him a fat italian lol


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 26, 2008)

Rings may be more common then Mushrooms, but he also has Fire Flowers, Capes, Frog Suits, Tanooki Suits, Raccoon Suits, Hammer Suits, and of course the Mega Mushroom. 

Additionally, in all of the Mario RPG's, particularly Super Mario RPG, Mario is the strongest character in the game, and he is also usually the fastest. He isn't a well-balanced character at all...

In Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga he is also stronger and faster than the other party members. 

Mario is also a Doctor.


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## X (Nov 26, 2008)

he gets a megamega mushroom in "the new super mario bros." for ds. makes him invincible, and huge.


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## Kuekuatsheu (Nov 26, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> In Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga he is also stronger and faster than the other party members.


yeah, but Luigi mostly has more HP, defense and Brotherpoints :3



> which would only make him a fat italian lol


eh, and Sonic is a fast, blue Hedgehog... A BLUE HEDGEHOG!


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## Verin Asper (Nov 26, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Rings may be more common then Mushrooms, but he also has Fire Flowers, Capes, Frog Suits, Tanooki Suits, Raccoon Suits, Hammer Suits, and of course the Mega Mushroom.
> 
> Additionally, in all of the Mario RPG's, particularly Super Mario RPG, Mario is the strongest character in the game, and he is also usually the fastest. He isn't a well-balanced character at all...
> 
> ...


He has a PhD in KICKING ASS


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## TwilightV (Nov 26, 2008)

Desume Crysis Kaiser said:


> He has a PhD in KICKING ASS



I smell a Dr. Tran fan...

Seriously though, is anyone even thinking of a reason as to WHY they would fight? >: (


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 26, 2008)

Because Mario hates Sonic and wants him to die? Why exactly do they need a reason...isn't that how the whole Super Smash Bros. thing works? A bunch of icons get into a fight for no reason.


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## TwilightV (Nov 26, 2008)

That's Smash, though. Here it's just... fanboyism.


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## Tycho (Nov 26, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> Seriously though, is anyone even thinking of a reason as to WHY they would fight? >: (



Because we fucking-ass told them to.  Fight to the death, or Peach and Amy get offed.


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## TwilightV (Nov 26, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Because we fucking-ass told them to.  Fight to the death, or Peach and Amy get offed.



 I'd think that they would team up and kick OUR asses if that was the case.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 26, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> I'd think that they would team up and kick OUR asses if that was the case.


or we could say we poisoned them and the victor gets the antidote


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## TwilightV (Nov 26, 2008)

Desume Crysis Kaiser said:


> or we could say we poisoned them and the victor gets the antidote



Sonic would zoom in, swipe antidote, and then they would proceed to tear us apart.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 26, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> Sonic would zoom in, swipe antidote, and then they would proceed to tear us apart.


thus mario dies since its only enough for one in the end we win =3


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## TwilightV (Nov 26, 2008)

Then they would come back with the power of their infinite lives. Since we only have one life, we're pretty much screwed.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 26, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> Then they would come back with the power of their infinite lives. Since we only have one life, we're pretty much screwed.


Damn cheat codes...I PLAY RESET BUTTON


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## TwilightV (Nov 26, 2008)

NO YOU FOOL! WE'LL BE STUCK IN A PARADOX!!! XD


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## X (Nov 26, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> Then they would come back with the power of their infinite lives. Since we only have one life, we're pretty much screwed.



>_>

<_<

*puts in a code* [activate god mode]

ok, I'm ready.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 26, 2008)

TwilightV said:


> NO YOU FOOL! WE'LL BE STUCK IN A PARADOX!!! XD


Snake?...Snake...SNAAAAAAAAAKE


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Rings may be more common then Mushrooms, but he also has Fire Flowers, Capes, Frog Suits, Tanooki Suits, Raccoon Suits, Hammer Suits, and of course the Mega Mushroom.


All of which go away once hit. Mega Mushroom is akin to the starman.



> Additionally, in all of the Mario RPG's, particularly Super Mario RPG, Mario is the strongest character in the game, and he is also usually the fastest. He isn't a well-balanced character at all...


Sonic isn't exactly balanced, either. He's strong, the fastest character in the game (possibly... Shadow gets close), has combos with several characters (there's a total of 12 counting Sonic, so having combo attacks with almost all of them is a huge boon), attacks 3 times in a single combat round when everyone else not named Shadow only gets one or two, has both physical and magical special moves (magic ones being wind-based, so they won't miss if done properly), and is one of only two characters who can use the Dash ability to get around the world map with.



> In Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga he is also stronger and faster than the other party members.


Superstar Saga only had 2 playable characters and Luigi was the more durable one. It only makes sense Mario would specialize in the other stats since there's nobody else to specialize in them.



> Mario is also a Doctor.


Sadly, someone beat me to the Dr. Tran referance...


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 26, 2008)

I just realized! Mario can easily beat Sonic by challenging him to a 2-D fight, and then using his Super Paper Mario ability, he'll make himself untouchable. Sonic won't even be able to see the 3rd dimension traveling Mario!

Mario also has a hammer. That he can throw.


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## AlexX (Nov 26, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> I just realized! Mario can easily beat Sonic by challenging him to a 2-D fight, and then using his Super Paper Mario ability, he'll make himself untouchable. Sonic won't even be able to see the 3rd dimension traveling Mario!


Mario can't harm Sonic either, though... At best all that does is stall the battle, and stalling doesn't make you win. At worst it puts him in a disadvantage since Sonic can create a tornado to blow the paper plumber away (and tornadoes can work in 3D).



> Mario also has a hammer. That he can throw.


Useless. Sonic's specialty is speed, and speed directly leads to dodge skill. Mario is best sticking to his fists, which will still have problems hitting Sonic.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 27, 2008)

But while in 3-D Mario will be able to easily move around Sonic, who will be unable to accurately pinpoint his location due to being a 2 dimensional character. I Mario can then pop out and smack Sonic around easily as it would be like if someone battled a character who could weave in and out of time easily. Any tornadoes could be easily avoided, since Mario will have a much larger area to dodge, thanks to him being in three dimensions.

Apparently he has an infinite supply of hammers to throw, and he can chuck those pretty fast...I can definitely see him throwing a hammer as an effective method of bashing Sonic around. 

Additionally, if we go by the RPG's, Mario would also be able to plant Fire Flowers, creating a damaging wall of flame, summon small lightning-quick lightning bolts, create earthquakes with hammer swings, and smack fireballs around with his hammer at high speeds.

Mario also has his Mario Tornado.


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## AlexX (Nov 27, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> But while in 3-D Mario will be able to easily move around Sonic, who will be unable to accurately pinpoint his location due to being a 2 dimensional character. I Mario can then pop out and smack Sonic around easily as it would be like if someone battled a character who could weave in and out of time easily.


Sonic beat Solaris, who DOES move in and out of time and dimensions easily... >.>



> Any tornadoes could be easily avoided, since Mario will have a much larger area to dodge, thanks to him being in three dimensions


Considering tornadoes attack in a circular pattern, it's possible they could hit in a 3-dimentional area. As such, Mario won't be able to escape unless he can outrun it... Can he outrun the world's fastest hedgehog?



> Apparently he has an infinite supply of hammers to throw, and he can chuck those pretty fast...I can definitely see him throwing a hammer as an effective method of bashing Sonic around.


Once again, you act like Sonic is about as fast as Mario. Seeing as how he's been able to outrun Tails's plane (even while running BACKWARDS, I might add), I think it's safe to say he can move pretty freaking fast. Plus, throw an item at Sonic in Smash Bros while he's running. It strangely only hits him part of the time, showing he can dodge effectively.



> Additionally, if we go by the RPG's, Mario would also be able to plant Fire Flowers, creating a damaging wall of flame, summon small lightning-quick lightning bolts, create earthquakes with hammer swings, and smack fireballs around with his hammer at high speeds.


Sonic can perform physical and magic special moves that hit multiple times and can't miss if performed properly. He can perform up to three moves in a single combat round. I realize this was all stated before, but it shows that it doesn't matter if Mario has all those abilities if his HP gets drained before he can use more than one or two.



> Mario also has his Mario Tornado.


Can it miss? Sonic's can't...


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 27, 2008)

Mario's always been depicted as strong and fast in his games. In Super Mario RPG, he was the strongest and the fastest, and in Paper Mario 2 he could have around twice as much health as the rest of his party members, and he went before they did. I highly doubt that three attacks from Sonic would stop Mario, even if they were doing a civilized combat RPG style combat.

Also, Mega Mushroom would not be the same as an invincibility star...it would make him invincible, yes, but it would also make him an unstoppable giant, which is quite frightening. Also, while Sonic may be faster than Mario, it's not by a huge amount from the games...he may be two or three times faster, running wise, but attack wise it's about equal, and it may even be a bit slower.

He can run as fast as he wants, but for him to get an actual attack off, it takes a bit...just look at his homing attack. He goofs off a bit, spinning around in the air before shooting at an opponent. Mario's equivalent, his jump is far faster than that.

The Super Smash Bros. reference is irrelevant, it's based off the person controlling him, not the character. Throw an item at Mario while he's standing still, and he could dodge them every time. He must be impossible to hit!

Mario also has a Super Jump Punch.


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## TwilightV (Nov 27, 2008)

*Annoying contradiction to previous post in 3...2...1...*


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## AlexX (Nov 27, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> Mario's always been depicted as strong and fast in his games.


So has Sonic. To break such well-built machines lesser animals fall victim to with (mostly) one hit and no weapon assistance says he has a lot about his physical strength.



> In Super Mario RPG, he was the strongest and the fastest, and in Paper Mario 2 he could have around twice as much health as the rest of his party members, and he went before they did.


In Paper Mario 1 and 2, your other party members were more like partners than actual party members since they were mostly support. Some specialized in offense, but they still aren't like Mario himself, or the other party members in Sonic Chronicles. And Sonic also goes before all his party members in his RPG, so if you're implying Mario will go first in a combat round you're insane.

As for stats? Well, technicality is not the same as what is reasonable here... Technically, Sonic is only the best in speed. Reasonably, he's going to be one of the best party members since you can only have 4 out of 12 playable characters and everyone else has weaknesses to balance out their strenths. Sonic has none. It's because of this that although you can't kick Sonic from the party due to storyline reasons, you'd never want to because he can perform combos with just about everyone and can handle all forms of combat at least reasonably well.



> I highly doubt that three attacks from Sonic would stop Mario, even if they were doing a civilized combat RPG style combat.


IIRC Sonic's Axe Kick hits 3 times for ~175% damage each (can't remember exactly how strong it is if fully upgraded). Tornado does 3 attacks for 115% damage, but is magical and can't miss regardless of what buffs the enemy has. Performing either of those 3 times in a round really has the damage add up.



> Also, Mega Mushroom would not be the same as an invincibility star...it would make him invincible, yes, but it would also make him an unstoppable giant, which is quite frightening.


His running speed still isn't all that good compared to Sonic's. If he somehow managed to get a power-up that's rarer than dinosaurs, Sonic can just outrun him until the time is up.



> Also, while Sonic may be faster than Mario, it's not by a huge amount from the games...he may be two or three times faster, running wise, but attack wise it's about equal, and it may even be a bit slower.


Sonic fights by spindashes into enemies, which can be done on the move. Mario prefers punches and kicks, which aren't as fast as simply curling up while moving. Both can jump on enemies, but Sonic can use his momentum to jump on foes at greater distances.

As for movement speed? Most speedruns for the old Sonic games are under 10 minutes. Most of the speedruns for the older Mario games are usually around 11 minutes (not using warp zones or stage selection in either game). Clearly Sonic is the true speed demon of the two.



> He can run as fast as he wants, but for him to get an actual attack off, it takes a bit...just look at his homing attack. He goofs off a bit, spinning around in the air before shooting at an opponent. Mario's equivalent, his jump is far faster than that.


In the actual games Sonic's homing attack can be performed as fast as you tap the button, so its speed is only limited to the player (and whether or not Sonic is in the air, of course). It's only in Brawl that it has a few seconds of startup, though in that case Sonic is better off with the spindash or his side-B.



> The Super Smash Bros. reference is irrelevant, it's based off the person controlling him, not the character. Throw an item at Mario while he's standing still, and he could dodge them every time. He must be impossible to hit!


I think you misunderstood. I mean it strangely goes through him even if the player does nothing but keep him moving, but that could very well just be a glitch... Brawl has a few, after all.



> Mario also has a Super Jump Punch.


You mean the Smash move, or something else?


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 27, 2008)

This has already been decided, but your rampant fanboyism amuses me, so I shall continue to respond.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_8LbrAYVrEw

Completed in 5:19. Not only is he fast, but he is also clever and efficient. Sonic could run around the world in ten minutes, but if Mario finds a warp pipe that takes him around the world in 5, then he was "faster" than Sonic.

You stated the damage done was in percents...what? 115% damage? What does that mean? I have not played this Sonic RPG that for the purposes of irritating you I shall claim you made up, so I dismiss your values as "confusing."

Mario can attack while running as well he has a tacking move he used in Sunshine, and in Brawl he has a sliding kick.

Mario has those Stopwatch things that freeze his enemies. Freeze Sonic in time, and then use his beastly strength to rip him in half. The end.

Mario also has the FLUDD.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 27, 2008)

*eating popcorn* ...continue this ish amusing =3


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## AlexX (Nov 27, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> This has already been decided, but your rampant fanboyism amuses me, so I shall continue to respond.


What rampant fanboyism? Nobody is defending Sonic, and I play his games, so I figured I should do it. Just because I argue something doesn't mean I'm a fanboy for it.

But while we're at it, how is what I'm arguing fanboyism in any way? Fanboyism is saying "Sonic wins because he's Sonic". It doesn't give facts to support them like I have been doing.



> Completed in 5:19. Not only is he fast, but he is also clever and efficient. Sonic could run around the world in ten minutes, but if Mario finds a warp pipe that takes him around the world in 5, then he was "faster" than Sonic.


Warp zones must be omitted. Otherwise Sonic can use Stage Select and simply start at the final level. You could argue that's cheating while warp zones are not, but that's not really fair because they're the same thing for all intents and purposes. Whether it's using a code or doing the first level or two doesn't matter, the result is the same: skipping levels.



> You stated the damage done was in percents...what? 115% damage? What does that mean? I have not played this Sonic RPG that for the purposes of irritating you I shall claim you made up, so I dismiss your values as "confusing."


It's hard to give exact numbers since I don't know the damage forumula for either game, but at least the damage is fixed at an above-average amount. And considering Sonic is pretty strong to begin with, doing even more damage is a great boon.



> Mario can attack while running as well he has a tacking move he used in Sunshine, and in Brawl he has a sliding kick.


Mario's tackle isn't really a useful move because it takes him a moment to get back up after he finishes, leaving him vulnerable. Sonic just has to hop after spinning to get back to running and won't really lose any momentum.



> Mario has those Stopwatch things that freeze his enemies. Freeze Sonic in time, and then use his beastly strength to rip him in half. The end.


Which only existed in one game and was relatively rare, but if you want to go that route Sonic has a number of shields he can use to put himself out of Mario's rage in the second or two it takes before it activates (going by Brawl, anyways... I haven't played the normal Super Mario 2/Doki Doki Panic). Double-jump with the thunder shield, turn into a fireball with the fire shield, bounce high with the bubble shield, or possibly just create that split-second shield to protect himself until it ends.



> Mario also has the FLUDD.


Does no damage, if Brawl is any indication. Its primary use is gimping recoveries, and unfortunetly for him Sonic has one of the better recoveries in the game. It won't help him.


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## Enigmaticat (Nov 27, 2008)

Why dont we just brawl and find out? 

I can play as Mario and Sonic.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 27, 2008)

The Stopwatch was in Super Mario Bros. 2, and in both Paper Mario and Paper Mario 2. I think there were a few other games, but those were the first to come to mind. If you can buy them in a shop, they couldn't be that rare.

Mega Mushroom Mario is a LOT faster than regular Mario, and Super Mega Star Mario from Super Paper Mario is even huger and faster, so I find it unlikely that Sonic could easily escape, especially if they were surrounded by the surroundings commonly found in their games, like blocks and walls. Sonic would have to jump or run around these things while Mario could save time by blowing through them.

His tackling move actually gave him momentum, and traveling by bouncing along the ground was quite speedy. He also ended it by leaping to his feet, so no, it didn't slow him down at all.

The Fludd has a turbo Nozzle which makes Mario go incredibly fast.

Mario also has Life Shrooms.


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## AlexX (Nov 27, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> The Stopwatch was in Super Mario Bros. 2, and in both Paper Mario and Paper Mario 2. I think there were a few other games, but those were the first to come to mind. If you can buy them in a shop, they couldn't be that rare.


Apparently I need to play the Paper Mario RPGs more... Even so, Sonic has his shields to support himself with. He also has plenty of equippable chao from Sonic Chronicles to help help him on the offense or defense.



> Mega Mushroom Mario is a LOT faster than regular Mario, and Super Mega Star Mario from Super Paper Mario is even huger and faster, so I find it unlikely that Sonic could easily escape, especially if they were surrounded by the surroundings commonly found in their games, like blocks and walls. Sonic would have to jump or run around these things while Mario could save time by blowing through them.


I've played New Super Mario Bros and Super Paper Mario. The characters are nowhere near as fast as you make them seem, they're still the same speed as before. They just feel a lot faster because their size covers more area.



> His tackling move actually gave him momentum, and traveling by bouncing along the ground was quite speedy. He also ended it by leaping to his feet, so no, it didn't slow him down at all.


I guess never using the move was a problem... however, he's still not as fast as Sonic or his spindash. I realize I'm probably parroting the same stuff at this point, but if Mario can't keep up it doesn't matter how strong he is.



> The Fludd has a turbo Nozzle which makes Mario go incredibly fast.


Can he go the speed of sound?



> Mario also has Life Shrooms.


Sonic has Life Rings and Revival Rings.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 27, 2008)

AlexX said:


> Can he go the speed of sound?



I don't see why not. If Sonic actually travels at the speed of sound in his games then Mario, who is depicted as being perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 Sonic's speed depending on the game, can certainly reach the speed of sound with the speed boost from the Turbo Nozzle.

They move at the same speed, but they cover ground quicker because they take bigger steps. Play Super Paper Mario, get the star thingy and smash through one of the levels until the power wears off. Then walk back. Time it. Notice the difference. Then reset and try and go through the level with the obstacles intact, and time that. Mario could definitely catch up to Sonic.

I could keep this going, but I'm going to end it right here. Mario's Star Powers from Paper Mario and Paper Mario 2. Any one of those could help Mario a LOT. If he has seven, or even all fifteen, he could obliterate Sonic.


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## AlexX (Nov 27, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> I don't see why not. If Sonic actually travels at the speed of sound in his games then Mario, who is depicted as being perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 Sonic's speed depending on the game, can certainly reach the speed of sound with the speed boost from the Turbo Nozzle.


Taking the in-game speeds perfectly literal doesn't really work here. If Sonic really did move at the speed of sound in the games, he'd be impossible to control.



> They move at the same speed, but they cover ground quicker because they take bigger steps. Play Super Paper Mario, get the star thingy and smash through one of the levels until the power wears off. Then walk back. Time it. Notice the difference. Then reset and try and go through the level with the obstacles intact, and time that. Mario could definitely catch up to Sonic.


Perhaps, so I guess it's a good thing Sonic has his own power-ups to use (such as his own invincibility).



> I could keep this going, but I'm going to end it right here. Mario's Star Powers from Paper Mario and Paper Mario 2. Any one of those could help Mario a LOT. If he has seven, or even all fifteen, he could obliterate Sonic.


By that logic, Sonic should also be allowed to use his chaos emeralds since they each make him a lot stronger. At that point it's Super Sonic vs Super Mario.


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## Seizure Puppy (Nov 27, 2008)

AlexX said:


> By that logic, Sonic should also be allowed to use his chaos emeralds since they each make him a lot stronger. At that point it's Super Sonic vs Super Mario.



By that logic, Mario could use the Star/Peach Beam to neutralize his invincibility, which would make it Super Mario vs. Sonic. Hey wait! That works by any logic!

So you can't claim Mario is slower than Sonic. All you have is a claim that is clearly designed to make Sonic sound cool. Mario could move at Mach 2, but he doesn't in game because that would make him impossible to control.

Mario also has the Firestorm.


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## AlexX (Nov 27, 2008)

Seizure Puppy said:


> By that logic, Mario could use the Star/Peach Beam to neutralize his invincibility, which would make it Super Mario vs. Sonic. Hey wait! That works by any logic!


Wasn't Peach beam designed specifically to negate the Star Rod's power and not invincibility in general?



> So you can't claim Mario is slower than Sonic. All you have is a claim that is clearly designed to make Sonic sound cool. Mario could move at Mach 2, but he doesn't in game because that would make him impossible to control.


Sonic is renowned for his speed. Mario is renowned for being overall balanced. Red mages are renowned for being balanced in everything, but that doesn't mean they have as good defense as knights, who are renowned for their durability.



> Mario also has the Firestorm.


Sonic has Wind magic, Time Stop, and Speed Up spells. Your point?


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## Enigmaticat (Nov 28, 2008)

AlexX said:


> Wasn't Peach beam designed specifically to negate the Star Rod's power and not invincibility in general?
> 
> Sonic is renowned for his speed. Mario is renowned for being overall balanced. Red mages are renowned for being balanced in everything, but that doesn't mean they have as good defense as knights, who are renowned for their durability.
> 
> Sonic has Wind magic, Time Stop, and Speed Up spells. Your point?


Mario has those connections too... >.> (hush hush, under the table)

You'll wake up with Sonic's head in your bed.


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