# Oslo Explosion & UtÃ¸ya Shooting



## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

Since the old thread is going to hell in a handbasket fast:

At 2:30pm BST several government buildings were damaged in an explosion, which was later revealed to be the first part of a domestic terrorism attack that claimed the life of over 80 people. Current sources say the subject is not related to any major Islamic Terrorist Cell, but instead a "Homegrown" Domestic Terrorist by the name of Anders Behring Breivik (Age 32), who dressed as a Police Officer during the latter half of the incident.


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## CAThulu (Jul 23, 2011)

Thank you for starting a new thread.  The last one was derailed completely.




> "Police have confirmed 17 deaths in the Oslo bombing and  youth camp shooting spree but expect the number to rise, according to  AP.
> National police chief Sveinung Sponheim says seven people were  killed by the blast in Oslo, four of whom have been identified, and that  nine or 10 people were seriously injured.*A homegrown terrorist  set off an explosion that ripped open government buildings in central  Oslo on Friday, he then went to a summer camp dressed as a police  officer and gunned down youths as they ran and even swam for their  lives, according to police.*
> 
> These are the worst attacks this peaceful nation has seen since the second world war."




This is the saddest thing I have ever read. :C


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

The island wherein the shootings took place. And some footage from after the bombing attack.


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> This is the saddest thing I have ever read. :C


It gets worse.

"At a hotel in the village of Sundvollen, where survivors of the shooting were taken, 21-year-old Dana Berzingi wore pants stained with blood. He said the fake police officer ordered people to come closer, then pulled weapons and ammunition from a bag and started shooting.

Several victims "had pretended as if they were dead to survive," Berzingi said. But after shooting the victims with one gun, the gunman shot them again in the head with a shotgun, he said."


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## Jw (Jul 23, 2011)

It's a shame something like this had to happen in such a large scale. Obviously any murder of innocents is bad. Frankly I'm surprised at this situation. Usually there is a bit where people get more and more confident and indoctrinated that they are willing to kill people and feel it can be carried out successfully. Hopefully things are gotten under check very quickly over there.

Like I said before, what a tragic abuse of human life over something so POINTLESS AND STUPID. I'm really outraged.

EDIT: IDK why my text looks all different all the sudden...


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jul 23, 2011)

Lobar said:


> Well this thread went to shit fast.  Before I jump too deep into it, the death toll on Utoya Island is now up to *eighty*, plus seven in the Oslo bombing.  Most of the people there were teenagers.  Apparantly there was a Labor Party youth event taking place, which may be why it was targeted.
> 
> edit: Source.



I know I shouldn't have, but I made a bad sometimes.

Anyways, it's quite remarkable what he was able to accomplish. That is considering what he did was kill a bunch of unarmed kids. This is something I'd like to take apart at my job but unfortunately I won't have the time to review it with the way my duties always have me going off into tangents. Unfortunately for Norway, Oslo has been a relative safe and quiet place for a long time which has made them a soft target.


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## CAThulu (Jul 23, 2011)

Attaman said:


> It gets worse.
> 
> "At a hotel in the village of Sundvollen, where survivors of the shooting were taken, 21-year-old Dana Berzingi wore pants stained with blood. He said the fake police officer ordered people to come closer, then pulled weapons and ammunition from a bag and started shooting.
> 
> Several victims "had pretended as if they were dead to survive," Berzingi said. But after shooting the victims with one gun, the gunman shot them again in the head with a shotgun, he said."



Jesus.  They were completely unprepared for this.  @_@


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## Jw (Jul 23, 2011)

Attaman said:


> It gets worse.
> 
> "At a hotel in the village of Sundvollen, where survivors of the shooting were taken, 21-year-old Dana Berzingi wore pants stained with blood. He said the fake police officer ordered people to come closer, then pulled weapons and ammunition from a bag and started shooting.
> 
> Several victims "had pretended as if they were dead to survive," Berzingi said. But after shooting the victims with one gun, the gunman shot them again in the head with a shotgun, he said."


Good god, i couldn't even imagine this kind of insanity.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 23, 2011)

Warning to this thread and all that post- DONT DERAIL, DONT SHIT IN THIS, AND BE CIVIL- this is tragic and this needs no petty furry bickering.


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> I know I shouldn't have, but I made a bad sometimes.
> 
> Anyways, it's quite remarkable what he was able to accomplish. That is considering what he did was kill a bunch of unarmed kids. This is something I'd like to take apart at my job but unfortunately I won't have the time to review it with the way my duties always have me going off into tangents. Unfortunately for Norway, Oslo has been a relative safe and quiet place for a long time which has made them a soft target.


Look at how big the island was, and consider just how well armed Anders had been. Despite the death toll, it could have been even worse, especially if he had been working alongside an accomplice.

Another video, slightly different. And a somewhat morbid picture of the beach, censored.


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Jul 23, 2011)

Jw said:


> Good god, i couldn't even imagine this kind of insanity.



Extreme double tapping.

The whole situation is pretty fucked up.  If there's any message to take out of this, it's that the whole world community needs to be more vigilant towards combating this level of extremism where innocent people are slaughtered over something as trivial as a cartoon.

Pray for the people of Norway.


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## Ad Hoc (Jul 23, 2011)

This is really awful. I feel sick thinking about this. Kids . . . God damn. 

My local newspaper already released a front page article that it was al-Qaeda. Great.


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## Fay V (Jul 23, 2011)

God this is terrible, what drives a person to become so utterly inhuman? 

Looking at the articles, I'm scared. Seeing the notes about he had no prior criminal activity and how he had registered guns and a WoW account makes me really worried that instead of focusing on what really matters, preparing for and preventing these tragedies, it will turn to another gun or videogame violence debate.


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> This is really awful. I feel sick thinking about this. Kids . . . God damn.
> 
> My local newspaper already released a front page article that it was al-Qaeda. Great.


The Sun's apparently printed such as well, though it's arguable how much people will throw a fit about it being inaccurate.


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## CAThulu (Jul 23, 2011)

Attaman said:


> The Sun's apparently printed such as well, though it's arguable how much people will throw a fit about it being inaccurate.



The Sun is kind of like Fox news, and I think it's owned by Rupert Murdoch, so don't take that rag seriously.  Wait until tomorrow when they have all the facts.


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## MaverickCowboy (Jul 23, 2011)

Fay V said:


> God this is terrible, what drives a person to become so utterly inhuman?
> 
> Looking at the articles, I'm scared. Seeing the notes about he had no prior criminal activity and how he had registered guns and a WoW account makes me really worried that instead of focusing on what really matters, preparing for and preventing these tragedies, it will turn to another gun or videogame violence debate.




It would be ridiculous trying to argue how WOW is so violent that it needs to be legislated into censorship. But i can honestly see this happening, see as how most in EU and AUS are quick to kneejerk censorship.


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

Comments Anders left with Document.no, not sure how valid or much insight they give.


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## Ekho (Jul 23, 2011)

This is just awful.  I just don't understand what would possess someone to commit such atrocities.



Attaman said:


> Several victims "had pretended as if they were dead to survive,"  Berzingi said. *But after shooting the victims with one gun, the gunman  shot them again in the head with a shotgun*, he said."



I just don't know what to say.  My heart goes out to the people of Norway


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 23, 2011)

I have no sympathy for the offender and say he should be slowly killed but that is just me.


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## Bliss (Jul 23, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> slaughtered over something as trivial as a cartoon.


What are you talking about?


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Jul 23, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> What are you talking about?



From what I understand the people who are claiming responsibility are some "global jihadist" group who made this attack based on some published cartoons of the prophet Mohammad.

This is based on what I heard six hours ago.

And when I wasn't drunk.


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## Bliss (Jul 23, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> From what I understand the people who are claiming responsibility are some "global jihadist" group who made this attack based on some published cartoons of the prophet Mohammad.
> 
> This is based on what I heard six hours ago.
> 
> And when I wasn't drunk.


It was a Norwegian extreme nationalist conservative and a critic of Islam.


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## Ad Hoc (Jul 23, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> From what I understand the people who are claiming responsibility are some "global jihadist" group who made this attack based on some published cartoons of the prophet Mohammad.
> 
> This is based on what I heard six hours ago.
> 
> And when I wasn't drunk.


The shooter who killed 80 kids was a white nationalist. I think they're still trying to determine if he was responsible for the bombing as well, but it's kind of pointing to him.


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## CAThulu (Jul 23, 2011)

edit: Ninja'd.


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Jul 23, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> It was a Norwegian extreme nationalist conservative and a critic of Islam.



I'll recheck news stories in the morning when I'm sober.


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## Ames (Jul 23, 2011)

Man, that guy is a total fucking nutcase.  It's really scary though how there was little to no previous indication of his mental instability.

Everybody must've been caught completely off guard...

I hope everything turns out okay there...


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## Lobar (Jul 23, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Warning to this thread and all that post- DONT DERAIL, DONT SHIT IN THIS, AND BE CIVIL- this is tragic and this needs no petty furry bickering.


 
The derailment on penal ethics and substituting vengeance for justice, you mean?  Because:





dinosaurdammit said:


> I have no sympathy for the offender and say *he should be slowly killed* but that is just me.


:\


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## Iudicium_86 (Jul 23, 2011)

Lobar said:


> The derailment on penal ethics and substituting vengeance for justice, you mean?  Because:
> :\



Maybe because that's some people feelings towards the direct offender in the tragedy, which is extremely relevant. 

Other talks like the derailment of the last one got into generic country bashing and talks or methods of rehabilitation and death penalty in a broader sense. Thus going off-topic from the actual event(s).


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## Endless Humiliation (Jul 23, 2011)

Lobar said:


> :\



_              Sorry dinosaurdammit is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her._

Holy shit this new reply box is ugly as fuck


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## Aetius (Jul 23, 2011)

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?

What would drive you to shoot 80 innocent youths?

I am just sickened completely and still in disbelief over this.


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## CynicalCirno (Jul 23, 2011)

Jihadist groups would claim responsability in order to enhance their image. Psychological warfare using exploitables - one person sets up a bomb and another or the same one shoots children then insures death, and Jihadist claim responsabilty, raising fear over themselves.

Is there any detailed and reasonable reason to confirm death of many? Any knowledge about the shooter's intentions?


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## Bliss (Jul 23, 2011)

Satellite One said:


> Is there any detailed and reasonable reason to confirm death of many? Any knowledge about the shooter's intentions?


An anti-multiculturalist/Islamist and extreme nationalist attacks a liberal left-wing party's youth camp. Sounds unbelievable, I know...


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## Wreth (Jul 23, 2011)

I feel genuinely ill. I have never understood nationalism or even patriotism. How someone can possibly do this, or think what they are doing is right, I simply do not understand.

I am really at a loss for words.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jul 23, 2011)

This whole thing is a complete tradgedy.
The death toll has risen so high since I went to sleep, it was only 5 at the youth camp confirmed last night. This whole thing is absolutely terrible. It also shows all those "We hate Muslims cos they're terrorists!" type-right wing nutjob Christian extremists that terrorists can be anyone.

I can't even begin to imagine how families of the killed and people in Oslo in general are trying to cope with this. It's sickening.


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## General-jwj (Jul 23, 2011)

The loss of life ... it's just absurd.

I don't get how a human can kill another human, period. So killings on this scale ... it just leaves me at a loss for words.

Cleaning and coping with this mess is going to be a long and painful process, and the victims have my condolences.


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## Sslaxx (Jul 23, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> This whole thing is a complete tradgedy.
> It also shows all those "We hate Muslims cos they're terrorists!" type-right wing nutjob Christian extremists that terrorists can be anyone.


The problem with that, as this tragedy has shown, is that often *they're terrorists themselves*.


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

One person from UtÃ¸ya's account of what happened there, disregard that it's a crappy Google Translate (The raw post if you can read it). And another eye-witness account.

Apparently, according to eye-witnesses, he may not have acted alone. Also do note that if using Google Translate and you see "Vermin" in any article, most probably it's related to alternate translations of the word UtÃ¸ya, not because the writers feel that way about the victim.


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## anero (Jul 23, 2011)

It's tragic shit that shouldn't happen regardless of how you feel about anything. 80+ people, mostly teenagers and kids are dead. Most likely, an obscure Norwegian law loophole will come into play, wherein the judge can extend the sentence after the original sentence has been served, I'd be surprised if this guy only stays in prison for 21 years. 

What you should be worried about too is that like Timothy McVeigh, Anders Behring Breivik didn't _need_ any terrorists to help him, more or less he had planned it up to a year in advance. This is not dissimilar to the 18th/19th century political bombings that also swept across Europe because of extremist views on many sides. I guess, point being, is that, this guy probably did this as a lone wolf. _One_ crazy bastard responsible for the deaths of more than three dozen people.

My heart goes out to the victims' families.


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## anero (Jul 23, 2011)

Death toll is now up to *92* according to some sources.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 23, 2011)

I was told by a friend who leaves near Oslo that the shooter here had no income last year, or the year before that, but now he has 600,000 in Norweigan dosh. Sounds fishy, hmm?


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## Ekho (Jul 23, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> This whole thing is a complete tradgedy.
> The death toll has risen so high since I went to sleep, it was only 5 at the youth camp confirmed last night. This whole thing is absolutely terrible. It also shows all those "We hate Muslims cos they're terrorists!" type-right wing nutjob Christian extremists that terrorists can be anyone.
> 
> I can't even begin to imagine how families of the killed and people in Oslo in general are trying to cope with this. It's sickening.



Yeah, when I got back from work last night, the count had gone up to about 80.  I don't recall what it was before I left, but I don't think it was nearly that high. 

Just thinking about what happened makes me shiver.


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## CAThulu (Jul 23, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> This whole thing is a complete tradgedy.
> The death toll has risen so high since I went to sleep, it was only 5 at the youth camp confirmed last night. This whole thing is absolutely terrible. It also shows all those "We hate Muslims cos they're terrorists!" type-right wing nutjob Christian extremists that terrorists can be anyone.



That is very true.  People can't use the "It's not us it's them" argument when it comes to terrorism, because that's exactly what this is when you get down to the brass tacks of the attack.  If that was truly his motive, that he was such an anti-Muslim that he would do this to his own people because of an all-consuming hatred for another religious group, then he is a terrorist.

(p.s.  Non Sequitor - I love your icon and the saying!  Baldrick is one of my favourite characters ^_^  but wouldn't his species _be_ a turnip    )


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## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 23, 2011)

News sources say Breivik(the shooter) had an issue with Norway's multi-cultural society. And that the attacks, were all politically motivated. Somehow. I fail to see how killing youths accomplishes anything at all, especially for politics.

It was horrible to hear about this, horrible to read about it.



> A man wearing a police uniform and identifying himself as an officer  arrived by boat at Utoya island, about 20 miles from Oslo, where word  was spreading among the campers about the explosion in the capital. The man asked to address the group, and then started shooting. According  to police, *the gunman was active and shooting for an hour and a half*  before authorities arrived. He used at least one automatic weapon and  one handgun, police said.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 23, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> I fail to see how killing youths accomplishes anything at all, especially for politics.



It's terrorist tactics. You could easily guess that it was done purely for shock value. Knowing that it seems that the shooter was actually paid, Norway could expect more to come.


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## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 23, 2011)

Gibby said:


> It's terrorist tactics. You could easily guess that it was done purely for shock value. Knowing that it seems that the shooter was actually paid, Norway could expect more to come.



I didn't know he was paid...Thats, uhm, I have no words to describe this now.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jul 23, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> News sources say Breivik(the shooter) had an issue with Norway's multi-cultural society. And that the attacks, were all politically motivated. Somehow. I fail to see how killing youths accomplishes anything at all, especially for politics.
> 
> It was horrible to hear about this, horrible to read about it.



He was killing the kids at a Labour Party camp, who are a left wing party, and he himself is right-wing Christian extremist headcase. To be honest, I'm not surprised that somewhere something like this has happened (I expected it to be America - I don't mean that to start a shitstorm) with the political climate in most places, but this is so much worse than I think anyone would have ever guessed would happen.

An interesting development - he isn't being referred to as a terrorist in a lot of media because he's not a Muslim. What the hell.


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## General-jwj (Jul 23, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> An interesting development - he isn't being referred to as a terrorist in a lot of media because he's not a Muslim. What the hell.



Pretty ridiculous since the definition of the act itself is (summarized) : causing terror to people beyond the victims (families, witnesses, the general population ...) to further religious or political goals.

Since the case about his political motivations is pretty ironclad ... I'd say it's politically correct BS or a hasty declaration that'll be corrected soon. I hope for the latter.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jul 23, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> Pretty ridiculous since the definition of the act itself is (summarized) : causing terror to people beyond the victims (families, witnesses, the general population ...) to further religious or political goals.
> 
> Since the case about his political motivations is pretty ironclad ... I'd say it's politically correct BS or a hasty declaration that'll be corrected soon. I hope for the latter.



I think it's a case of political correctness and to further the political agenda of the newstations reporting it that way. The article I linked is rather good at discussing it.


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## Eske (Jul 23, 2011)

This whole situation has hit me so hard, for some reason.  I was shocked to tears last night.  It's not like bad things don't happen all the time, even to innocent children.  But this one... really got to me.  Especially after seeing the pictures.  I've been feeling too awful to comment until now.



Rukh_Whitefang said:


> I didn't know he was paid...Thats, uhm, I have no words to describe this now.



We don't _know_ that he was paid -- that's all speculation at the moment, based on the fact that he apparently had very little income for the last few years.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jul 23, 2011)

Eske said:


> This whole situation has hit me so hard, for some reason.  I was shocked to tears last night.  It's not like bad things don't happen all the time, even to innocent children.  But this one... really got to me.  Especially after seeing the pictures.  I've been feeling too awful to comment until now.



I spent all of last night in tears about this as well. I think the bit that really got to me was the fact that he was shooting at kids swimming for their lives, and just didn't stop. Just... fuck.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 23, 2011)

Eske said:


> We don't _know_ that he was paid -- that's all speculation at the moment, based on the fact that he apparently had very little income for the last few years.



Yeah, but he's suddenly got a lot more in the bank. It's just suspicious, is all.


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## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 23, 2011)

This gets better...



> The suspect in the twin attacks that killed at least 92 people in Norway was a member of a Swedish neo-Nazi Internet forum, a group monitoring far-right activity says.



http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...f-nazi-web-forum/story-e6frfku0-1226100562007



​


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## CynicalCirno (Jul 23, 2011)

Witnesses state that two people were firing in the camp. The one known to confirm death of the victims, as far as I know, was not an extremist muslim but a right wing nationalist.
As I've hopefully said before, Jihadists groups were exploiting the case to emphasize their names, even though none of them are known to participate in the terror.

I was told that one reporter claimed that "The people in Oslo can feel what's happening in Gaza", and that alone makes me want to plant ten more of them in Oslo.
Big case.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 23, 2011)

Also, it turns out that Amy Winehouse was found dead in her Londumb apartment on the same day. Wierd week, this is.

I can't help but feel that there's going to be another attack like this in the next few days...


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## General-jwj (Jul 23, 2011)

Gibby said:


> Also, it turns out that Amy Winehouse was found dead in her Londumb apartment on the same day. Wierd week, this is.



I felt bad for the world when I heard that news. I get emails from the BBC whenever something big happens, but they never send them unless the news is really big. And on the same day I get a mail about the killings in Norway, and one about that drug addict pop singer dying in her apartment. 

News stations really need to set their priorities straight.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 23, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> News stations really need to set their priorities straight.



Aye. But looking again at this news, I can't help but think, "why Norway?" It's a peaceful country, it's not currently at war, it's not expecting any serious action or anything, and there hasn't been any since the second world war.

... and I think I've kinda answered my own question.


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## Conker (Jul 23, 2011)

Man, this whole thing is one fucked up mess. It's just tragic, and I don't often use that word. 

I was reading a Kotaku article about this as well, and one of the commenters, apparently from Norway, said that last year, the country had under 30 murders--for the whole year. Now, in one day, the number is up to 90. I mean, that's the kinda shit that just hit Norway, and that is just too horrible for words.


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## Tycho (Jul 23, 2011)

I think they're going to set some new precedent with this guy and declare him "cannot be rehabilitated" and then find a suitable small dark place to lock him in for the rest of his natural life.

I keep looking for cases to parallel this with - McVeigh and Nichols, and Moussaoui are what spring to mind first, being American as I am - and the stark contrasts between the Norwegian criminal justice system and ours just baffles me.  The only thing I can think of is that they might find some way to strip him of his citizenship.  That opens a door or two, I think.


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## Iudicium_86 (Jul 23, 2011)

Tycho said:


> I think they're going to set some new precedent with this guy and declare him "cannot be rehabilitated" and then find a suitable small dark place to lock him in for the rest of his natural life.



We can only hope. 

On another forum we're discussing the issue as well in regards to the Norwegian judicial system and I've shared my thoughts that this 'rehabilitation' concept may work for wife beaters, drunk drivers, common thieves and criminals, and maybe even rapists. But there's some individuals who are so far-gone, such as the type who can take it upon themselves to kill 80 kids without remorse are just simply beyond rehabilitation. 

Nice sentiment to want to change people for the better. but still naive to go on and not acknowledge the fact there are some who are absolutely beyond help and just need to be removed from society and life.


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## HillyRoars (Jul 23, 2011)

Its so unfair I hope the people of Norway are able to recover from this fast and fight off anything like this from happening ever again God I feel so bad for the parents of the children more than anything. It's just so sickening people like this man and anyone else involved could do what they've done and to this extent...


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 23, 2011)

SummerLioness said:


> Its so unfair I hope the people of Norway are able to recover from this fast and fight off anything like this from happening ever again God I feel so bad for the parents of the children more than anything. It's just so sickening people like this man and anyone else involved could do what they've done and to this extent...



Loss is hard no matter what it is in relation to you but your own child- dear god I cannot imagine nor want to, those parents will never get over it and I cannot imagine all the different emotions they are coping with at this moment in time.


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## Bobskunk (Jul 23, 2011)

Yet another instance of right wing/conservative terrorism, plotted out for a long time to make "those liberals" pay.  Norway was all set to recognize Palestine at the UN in a few months, and that's the sort of "islam tolerance" these nuts hate.

I think someone else in the previous thread said his real target was this labour-sponsored summer camp, and on one level I'm sure he was hoping that the first reaction everyone would have to a car bomb leveling a block was "IT WAS THE MUSLIMS, THE NATIONALISTS WERE RIGHT," a white nationalist false flag if he didn't make it to the island for his spree.  Someone linked me to the batshit insane Alex Jones Prison Planet article that came out as soon as it was found to be a white nationalist dude.  It emphasized words like "lone wolf," "isolated incident" and played up how rare terrorist attacks are- even though they do and say the opposite whenever Islam is involved.

Yet another "isolated incident" to add to the pile, while the right wing gets horribly offended when reports come out declaring them as the most likely terrorists.  They vent their frustration with violence because these simplistic people believe force is the only thing people understand.


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## Conker (Jul 23, 2011)

http://kotaku.com/5824147/oslo-terr...raining+simulation-world-of-warcraft-as-cover

Apparently those ebil ebil video games were to blame D: 

This story gets even more and more fucked up the more and more we learn about it :\


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 23, 2011)

Conker said:


> http://kotaku.com/5824147/oslo-terr...raining+simulation-world-of-warcraft-as-cover
> 
> Apparently those ebil ebil video games were to blame D:
> 
> This story gets even more and more fucked up the more and more we learn about it :\



Ah well, at least it's games that I don't like. The MW2 thing was just plain funny in my mind, but the usage of WoW as a cover was actually pretty smart.


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## Attaman (Jul 23, 2011)

A handy timeline of the "Norway Attacks", as it's referred to by the Guardian. Here's a video interview with a(n injured) survivor of the UtÃ¸ya shooting. Oh, and a manifesto of Anders, though do note it's a bit long.

EDIT: It should also be noted that it's not 100% confirmable if Anders wrote that or not. I'm sure the news will tell us in short order whether it is.


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## Bliss (Jul 23, 2011)

Attaman said:


> Oh, and a manifesto of Anders, though do note it's a bit long.


Oh, great. A templar! :V

Edit: No, seriously...



Attaman said:


> EDIT:  It should also be noted that it's not 100% confirmable if Anders wrote  that or not. I'm sure the news will tell us in short order whether it  is.


Apparently the manifesto was e-mailed to some politicians around Scandinavia. At least one 'True Finn' got it on Friday at 15.20.


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## Bobskunk (Jul 23, 2011)

Norway suspect laid out detailed plans for violence against "traitors," Muslims


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## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 24, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> Yet another instance of right wing/conservative terrorism, plotted out for a long time to make "those liberals" pay.  Norway was all set to recognize Palestine at the UN in a few months, and that's the sort of "islam tolerance" these nuts hate.
> 
> I think someone else in the previous thread said his real target was this labour-sponsored summer camp, and on one level I'm sure he was hoping that the first reaction everyone would have to a car bomb leveling a block was "IT WAS THE MUSLIMS, THE NATIONALISTS WERE RIGHT," a white nationalist false flag if he didn't make it to the island for his spree.  Someone linked me to the batshit insane Alex Jones Prison Planet article that came out as soon as it was found to be a white nationalist dude.  It emphasized words like "lone wolf," "isolated incident" and played up how rare terrorist attacks are- even though they do and say the opposite whenever Islam is involved.
> 
> Yet another "isolated incident" to add to the pile, while the right wing gets horribly offended when reports come out declaring them as the most likely terrorists.  They vent their frustration with violence because these simplistic people believe force is the only thing people understand.



You should know, right and left wing is completely different in Europe than it is in America. Europe's political parties â‰  America's political parties.


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> You should know, right and left wing is completely different in Europe than it is in America. Europe's political parties â‰  America's political parties.


 Funny that, while somewhat true, I have seen this _hilariously_ spun on its head when talking about things other than politics, like - say - differences between people of a certain race or religious background. "A Hindu's a Hindu", for instance. Furthermore, considering that "Neo-Nazi Right Wing" is pretty much the same regardless of where you are in the world (unless there's more definitions of Neo-Nazi than I'm aware of)...

EDIT: Note that I am speaking of Neo-Nazism, _not_ the Right Wing in general. I am also merely pointing out that such "It's not the same here as it is there" is quite comically ignored in some situations.

EDIT 2:  And for some on-topic related content, Youtube video by Anders? And he admitted to the acts.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> You should know, right and left wing is completely different in Europe than it is in America. Europe's political parties â‰  America's political parties.


We know. What's your point?


----------



## Lobar (Jul 24, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> You should know, right and left wing is completely different in Europe than it is in America. Europe's political parties â‰  America's political parties.



He was extremely vocal about fighting multiculturalism, government oppression, jihadists and Marxism.  Sounds like your typical Glenn Beck audience to me.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 24, 2011)

This is very convenient for a government such as the one in Norway:

-The shooter is a right-wing, Christian extremist in opposition to the Labour party in power.
-The majority of the killings were committed with an assault rifle (which are already banned in Norway), but which will lead to an increased push for gun control.
-The majority of the killings were of individuals between the ages of 15-20. (adolescents)

If I had the ideals of the labour party, i'd milk this as much as possible, to:
-Ban all opposition parties
-Ban firearms in general
-Establish martial law to keep the peace, and maintain order due to reports of additional explosive devices.
-Close all government offices and party headquarters to prevent "future" attacks by copycats.

Where have I seen this before?

I know that this post is going to get alot of flak, and alot of "Alex Jones would say this" replies, but seriously... I wouldn't put it past any politician to milk disasters as grave as this as much as possible (think George Bush and Guilliani after 9/11).


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

JesusFish is again an expert on Norway too, it seems. :V


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

So, er, does this mean all those sites Anders participated on were Labour Party conspiracy stuff too, several years in the planning? Pardon me if I'm reluctant to put much faith in this theory, and if I also find it insulting how far some people are willing to go to avoid any sort of responsibility while at the same time decreeing that certain parties need to scream out from every single [HOUSE OF WORSHIP REDACTED] against the actions of a solitary person.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 24, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> JesusFish is again an expert on Norway too, it seems. :V



I know relatively little, Lizzie, except for that I know little, and that the past has a tendency to repeat itself.


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

JesusFish said:


> I know relatively little, Lizzie, except for that I know little, and that the past has a tendency to repeat itself.


 I just find it interesting the situation in which it's being looked at. Similar to the "Why did you only look for Obama's birth certificate", "Why did you only think the White Christian Far-Right Nutjob's information might be falsified / a plant?" I can bet you dollars to donuts that if you replace one of those four criteria in the latter, people wouldn't be doubting this for a minute or calling for people to wait and see.

In related news about Anders, "He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary,".


----------



## Commiecomrade (Jul 24, 2011)

I cannot even fathom what the experience would be to be young and witness such an atrocity at a summer camp.


----------



## San-Ryuuk (Jul 24, 2011)

God, this is just....
Killing and/or torturing innocents IN MY MIND is about the most disgusting thing a person can do.
And CHILDREN nonetheless... All I can say is that I hope this man suffers greatly for what he has done.


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 24, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> We know. What's your point?


 My point was so that people don't try and make a leap of right wing (Republicans) And a right wing nationalist/fascist from Europe are the same thing. The guy was a neo-Nazi extremist. That right there says it all.



Attaman said:


> I just find it interesting the situation in which it's being looked at. Similar to the "Why did you only look for Obama's birth certificate", "Why did you only think the White Christian Far-Right Nutjob's information might be falsified / a plant?" I can bet you dollars to donuts that if you replace one of those four criteria in the latter, people wouldn't be doubting this for a minute or calling for people to wait and see.
> 
> In related news about Anders, "He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary,".





> A Norwegian right-wing fanatic who killed at least 92 people believes  his acts were atrocious but necessary, *his lawyer said*, as the nation  mourned victims of its worst attacks since World War Two.



What a crappy job to get as a defense lawyer.



> A video posted on the YouTube website showed several pictures of  Breivik, including one of him in a scuba diving outfit pointing an  automatic weapon.
> "*Before we can start our crusade we must do our duty by decimating  cultural marxism*," said a caption under the video called "Knights  Templar 2083" on the YouTube website, which took down the video on  Saturday



So, killing young kids who were not even of voting age is legitimized how? Yeah...


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> My point was so that people don't try and make a leap of right wing (Republicans) And a right wing nationalist/fascist from Europe are the same thing. The guy was a neo-Nazi extremist. That right there says it all.


A neo-Nazi extremist is the same everywhere. In the first place, European right-wing doesn't mean 'Christian neo-Nazi fascist' any more than Republican does.


----------



## Mayfurr (Jul 24, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> A neo-Nazi extremist is the same everywhere. In the first place, European right-wing doesn't mean 'Christian neo-Nazi fascist' any more than Republican does.



True. On the other hand, the US _Democrat party_ are considered centre-_right_ in terms of European and Australasian politics, which puts the US Republicans further right than _that_...

... so if conservative Americans think Democrats are "socialist", they'd no doubt be pissing their pants when confronted with something as mainstream as the centre-left British Labour Party


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> Yet another instance of right wing/conservative terrorism, plotted out for a long time to make "those liberals" pay.  Norway was all set to recognize Palestine at the UN in a few months, and that's the sort of "islam tolerance" these nuts hate.
> 
> I think someone else in the previous thread said his real target was this labour-sponsored summer camp, and on one level I'm sure he was hoping that the first reaction everyone would have to a car bomb leveling a block was "IT WAS THE MUSLIMS, THE NATIONALISTS WERE RIGHT," a white nationalist false flag if he didn't make it to the island for his spree.  Someone linked me to the batshit insane Alex Jones Prison Planet article that came out as soon as it was found to be a white nationalist dude.  It emphasized words like "lone wolf," "isolated incident" and played up how rare terrorist attacks are- even though they do and say the opposite whenever Islam is involved.
> 
> Yet another "isolated incident" to add to the pile, while the right wing gets horribly offended when reports come out declaring them as the most likely terrorists.  They vent their frustration with violence because these simplistic people believe force is the only thing people understand.



Well don't you just have a political hard on bobby!


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jul 24, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> True. On the other hand, the US _Democrat party_ are considered centre-_right_ in terms of European and Australasian politics, which puts the US Republicans further right than _that_...
> 
> ... so if conservative Americans think Democrats are "socialist", they'd no doubt be pissing their pants when confronted with something as mainstream as the centre-left British Labour Party



This always got to me. When Labour here are considered pretty much a centre party, yet they're more left than the Democrats and people are crying bloody murder that the Dems are socialist... well, we have left parties and we're hardly 'socialist'.
When I first learned just how far right the American political system really was, it shocked me.

However, this shooter was on a whole other level. Holy crusade? *Sigh* Absolute headcase.


----------



## ArgonTheFox (Jul 24, 2011)

When I herd the TV say it was a christian extremest who murdered all those people I was just sat there thinking "fucking TYPICAL".


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## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

ArgonTheFox said:


> When I herd the TV say it was a christian extremest who murdered all those people I was just sat there thinking "fucking TYPICAL".



How so? I don't recall a surge a "Christian extremists" across Europe to make it a common occurrence to be "typical"


----------



## CAThulu (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> How so? I don't recall a surge a "Christian extremists" across Europe to make it a common occurrence to be "typical"



I don't think we would over here in north america...not unless you make a habit of reading papers from Europe.  Apparently there's talk that the Far Right is a growing trend across Europe, which in some areas include Christian Extremists.

My main concern is that, as tragic as this is, the attack will be so over-covered that it's going to add to east/ west tensions.  But instead of having the US involved like last time, it'll be Europe, and that includes a lot of countries.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

The death toll rose to 93 since a person died while in hospital treatment.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> I don't think we would over here in north america...not unless you make a habit of reading papers from Europe.  *Apparently there's talk that the Far Right is a growing trend across Europe, which in some areas include Christian Extremists*.
> 
> My main concern is that, as tragic as this is, the attack will be so over-covered that it's going to add to* east/ west tensions.*  But instead of having the US involved like last time, it'll be Europe, and that includes a lot of countries.



If so, this is only hand in hand with the increasing tensions with Islamic immigration. There has been tensions across Europe with increased immigration due to failure to integrate into European society. Sweden has been have some major issues and many including violence from Islamic/Arabic populations and less publicized Germany, France, Spain.

I recall the marinet ban (because it was seen as a sign of political power tied to religious buildings), and burqa ban. (symbol of oppression of wemon) which led to outrage/protest/burning cars. So i can imagine WHY there would be a rise in Right/Christian extremism. Action/reaction etc.

Honestly though. Prior to the 9/11 attacks. No one gave as much emphasis to an attackers religion until now.

The bomb went off and everybody had already believed it was Islamic based terrorism. 
It turns out to be a white guy, and everyone on the left is more than happy to scream and point fingers "See! now those Tea partiers will finally see Terrorism isn't just committed by sand people!" <-which im still confused what the "Tea party" has anything to do with Norway and Oslo.
Equating the attacks, or suggesting these attacks are what is to be expected from a political party is only going to cause more hatred and devide. 

As far as east-west. Turkey did a good job of alienating itself from the EU for a VERY LONG TIME thanks to its very vocal nutty Islamist's in gov't.

Serbia/Kosovo (Genocide argument/blame game) bullshit will never be resolved. It's as cancerous as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Sweden has been have some major issues and many including violence from  Islamic/Arabic populations and less publicized Germany, France, Spain.


Makes me wonder why it wasn't in Sweden. MalmÃ¶ especially has problems, though most of the immigrants aren't muslims but Eastern European.



> So i can imagine WHY there would be a rise in Right/Christian extremism. Action/reaction etc.


Cool story, bro. Now let's shoot those darn liberal kids! :V



> It turns out to be a white guy, and everyone on the left is more than happy to scream and point fingers "See! now those Tea party will finally see Terrorism isn't just committed by sand people!".


Well, it _is_ ironic, isn't it?


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jul 24, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Well, it _is_ ironic, isn't it?



Also, he isn't be referred to as 'Christian' or a 'terrorist' in a lot of mainstream media. Apparently religion only counts if you're Muslim, and terrorists can only be people of colour.

Fuck that.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Cool story, bro. Now let's shoot those darn liberal kids! :V



No idea what direction you're trying to go with this.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Also, *he isn't be referred to as 'Christian' or a 'terrorist' *in a lot of mainstream media. Apparently religion only counts if you're Muslim, *and terrorists can only be people of colour*.
> 
> Fuck that.



*

Afghan's are not people of color. Ethnically. Afghan's are Caucasian.
*


*HEADLINE "The Christian Extremist Suspect in Norway's Massacre"*
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/07/christian-fundamentalist-charged-death-toll-norway-soars-past-90/40321/


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 24, 2011)

Attaman said:


> Furthermore, considering that "Neo-Nazi Right Wing" is pretty much the same regardless of where you are in the world (unless there's more definitions of Neo-Nazi than I'm aware of)...



And that's the irony.  Nazi is the contraction of the National _Socialist_ Party.....Nazis are socialist, state-ists and likely fascists too. Unless the right wing has suddenly been over run with pro-socialist agenda of cradle-to-grave health care, education and employment, you can usually count on the term  "neo-nazi right wing" as just another leftist smear. 



Lobar said:


> He was extremely vocal about fighting multiculturalism, government oppression, jihadists and Marxism.  Sounds like your typical Glenn Beck audience to me.



Or just about every European populist government to-day. 



> I know that this post is going to get alot of flak, and alot of "Alex Jones would say this" replies, but seriously... I wouldn't put it past any politician to milk disasters as grave as this as much as possible (think George Bush and Guilliani after 9/11).



Indeed.  One wonders how it is possible for the Norwegian internal counter-terrorist to have missed this guy.  Surely he was on somebody's radar?  Althought to be fair, I never ascribe to malice what can be explained by gross incompetence.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> *HEADLINE "The Christian Extremist Suspect in Norway's Massacre"*
> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/glob...harged-death-toll-norway-soars-past-90/40321/


"In a lot of mainstream media."


----------



## Cain (Jul 24, 2011)

Apparently, according to several internet posts this guy made, he's actually anti-muslim.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 24, 2011)

Jagged Edge said:


> Apparently, according to several internet posts this guy made, he's actually anti-muslim.


We figured this out, darling. All by ourselves. xD


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> And that's the irony.  Nazi is the contraction of the National _Socialist_ Party.....Nazis are socialist, state-ists and likely fascists too. Unless the right wing has suddenly been over run with pro-socialist agenda of cradle-to-grave health care, education and employment, you can usually count on the term  "neo-nazi right wing" as just another leftist smear.


 Actually, Nazi is on the far right of the political spectrum, unless all my sociology and government classes from Middle School to College have been very, very shitty*. Fascism is the far right of the political spectrum, Communism meanwhile being the far left (or, as one of the classes said, Maoism being the furthest left). 



Irreverent said:


> Indeed.  One wonders how it is possible for the Norwegian internal counter-terrorist to have missed this guy.


 ... For some reason, I don't feel as much disgust at people as I should for implying that the Labour Party / Internal Affairs purposely sacrificed 90+ people (at least 80 of them youths of the party) to smear their political opponents. Maybe I just haven't woke up fully yet.

*Note that I'm in the Maryland school system, so that isn't impossible.

And another article corroborates Anders saying he deemed it necessary. Oh, and if you believe the Manifesto at least slightly in events it said occurred, they would have to have been planning this for at least _nine years_.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

The only thing i don't get in all of this seemingly master plan. Why would he attack his OWN kin, of the left leaning if everyone knows that would just bring more resentment to his cause, and further encourage against it? Seems like he did the very people he hates a favor.


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

Well now, isn't this interesting. 
Article Title: "Anders Breivik is not Christian but anti-Islam", 
Article Content: "The Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik, who shot dead more than 90 young socialists at their summer camp on Friday, after mounting a huge bomb attack on the centre of Oslo, has been described as a fundamentalist Christian. But he published enough of his thoughts on the internet to make it clear that even in his saner moments his ideology had nothing to do with Christianity, but was based on an atavistic horror of Muslims and a loathing of "Marxists", by which he meant anyone to the left of Genghis Khan."

Methinks the article doth lie in the title.



MaverickCowboy said:


> The only thing i don't get in all of this seemingly master plan. Why would he attack his OWN kin,


 Why did the Oklahoma Bomber attack their own fellow citizens?



MaverickCowboy said:


> of the left leaning


... Please, please tell me I'm not reading this properly, and you aren't saying Anders was a Leftist Extremist.



MaverickCowboy said:


> if everyone knows that would just bring more resentment to his cause, and further encourage against it? Seems like he did the very people he hates a favor.


 Look how much good will the Oklahoma Bomber brought to their cause. Mind, apparently, some "minor" support groups have shown up online, and the expected communities continued to gnash teeth and disregard information about him not being an Arab, or seem less confused about the attacks and more about why he didn't get more Muslim victims.


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 24, 2011)

Attaman said:


> Actually, Nazi is on the far right of the political spectrum, unless all my sociology and government classes from Middle School to College have been very, very shitty*. Fascism is the far right of the political spectrum, Communism meanwhile being the far left (or, as one of the classes said, Maoism being the furthest left).



Perhaps the contradiction comes from them being so far right...that they are left? Nazi's are socialists and nanny stateists...this is not a typical far-right belief system.   I suspect your modern education is not so much shitty, as lazy.  The use of fiat labels seems to be an easy way out rather than explaining complex political structures that share elements common to many dogmatic systems.    



> the Labour Party / Internal Affairs purposely sacrificed 90+ people (at least 80 of them youths of the party) to smear their political opponents



This may not be the case, it could just be basic incompetance on their part too.  The coming inquiry into this atrocity will be revealing, especially if its a whitewash.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Attaman said:


> ... Please, please tell me I'm not reading this properly, and you aren't saying Anders was a Leftist Extremist.



You're reading FAILS hardcore. I said he was attacking those that were left leaning.


----------



## Dj_ArticFox_One (Jul 24, 2011)

Ok this guy is stupid. He did all this just to get rid of Muslims by killing his own countrymen. What a fudging retard.


----------



## Aleu (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> You're reading FAILS hardcore. I said he was attacking those that were left leaning.



okay....so what's your point?


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Aleu said:


> okay....so what's your point?



I was correcting him. Whats YOUR point?


----------



## Tycho (Jul 24, 2011)

Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Ok this guy is stupid. He did all this just to get rid of Muslims by killing his own countrymen. What a fudging retard.



His logic:

"grr, brown people with Allah-god bad.  other norwegians not think they bad.  i show them.  i shoot their kids for thinking they not-bad.  then they see my point and start hating brown people.  flawless logic."


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Tycho said:


> His logic:
> 
> "grr, brown people with Allah-god bad.  other norwegians not think they bad.  i show them.  i shoot their kids for thinking they not-bad.  then they see my point and start hating brown people.  flawless logic."



Pretty sure he was more systematic than that. planning this 9 years, writing a 1,500 page manifesto and knowing three languages.

He thought this out more than your post. Just sayin'.


----------



## Tycho (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Pretty sure he was more systematic than that. planning this 9 years, writing a 1,500 manifesto and knowing three languages.
> 
> He thought this out more than your post. Just sayin'.



It doesn't matter how much glitter and macaroni you stick to that rock, it's still a rock underneath.  The basic premise is caveman-simple.  Coercion by shock and force.  "START HATING MUSLIMS OR THERE WILL BE OTHERS LIKE ME.  IF YOU HAD HATED MUSLIMS TO BEGIN WITH THIS WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO HAPPEN."


----------



## Dj_ArticFox_One (Jul 24, 2011)

Ok. I dont know why the reply with quote not working. He could of just protest and not shoot innocient teens. Did you realize that he shot teenagers at a youth camp. WAKE UP!!!


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Ok. I dont know why the reply with quote not working. He could of just protest and not shoot innocient teens. Did you realize that he shot teenagers at a youth camp. WAKE UP!!!



what?


----------



## Tycho (Jul 24, 2011)

Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Ok. I dont know why the reply with quote not working. He could of just protest and not shoot innocient teens. Did you realize that he shot teenagers at a youth camp. WAKE UP!!!



Subtlety, civility and restraint are not words in this man's vocabulary nor are they in the vocabularies of many other like-minded people around the world.  They use violence and bloodshed because they view it as being a trump card over their enemies' superior abilities to figure things out without shooting them or blowing them up.


----------



## Dj_ArticFox_One (Jul 24, 2011)

Okay whatever. I guess you support this man's action. If he wanted to use violence. Why not use it in battle. War of Terrorism is still going on today


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Okay whatever.* I guess you support this man's action*. If he wanted to use violence. Why not use it in battle. War of Terrorism is still going on today



I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. Please enlighten us.


----------



## Tycho (Jul 24, 2011)

Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Okay whatever. I guess you support this man's action. If he wanted to use violence. Why not use it in battle. War of Terrorism is still going on today



Oh shut up, you crack baby.  Lern2readingcomprehension.


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> You're reading FAILS hardcore. I said he was attacking those that were left leaning.


 Bear in mind I asked to make sure you weren't saying that, and this is mostly because I just saw someone argue that this is a nine-year-in-making Leftist plot for PR (here) and that obviously despite all the evidence this must be a Muslim (elsewhere). Questionable statements I'm not willing to give the benefit of the doubt unless told otherwise. 



Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Okay whatever. I guess you support this man's action. If he wanted to use violence. Why not use it in battle. War of Terrorism is still going on today


 Against Muslims living in nation = War on Terror?

... Do I want to know how you reached that conclusion?


----------



## VoidBat (Jul 24, 2011)

This is sad event, indeed.
Though I find it hard to believe that there wasn't any alarm bells that went off somewhere when ultra-extremist, known for expressing his extreme, radical views suddenly starts up a fruit company and buys six fucktons of artificial fertilizers.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 24, 2011)

Out of curiosity, does anyone here track Neo-Nazi communities? (I doubt we have any Neo-Nazis here but maybe people who just keep an eye on them.) I'll get an ulcer if I go track one down. I'm curious if there actually are people out there who think he's a RaHoWa hero or some bullshit, or think he had the right idea but went after the wrong people, or worse, are taking inspiration from him. He can't be the only of his kind.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jul 24, 2011)

Dj_ArticFox_One said:


> Okay whatever. I guess you support this man's action. If he wanted to use violence. Why not use it in battle. War of Terrorism is still going on today



What on earth are you talking about? It's obvious throughout the ENTIRETY of this thread that everyone here is against the attacks, as well as shocked and saddened by what occurred.


Just... what?


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> What on earth are you talking about? It's obvious throughout the ENTIRETY of this thread that everyone here is against the attacks, as well as shocked and saddened by what occurred.
> 
> 
> Just... what?



HI, IM DR.ROCKSO. AND I DO COCCOCOCOCOCAINE BABY.

i can't tell if he's serious, or a very good troll.




Ad Hoc said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone here track *Neo-Nazi communities*? (*I doubt we have any Neo-Nazis* here but maybe people who just keep an eye on them.) I'll get an ulcer if I go track one down. I'm curious if there actually are people out there who think he's a RaHoWa hero or some bullshit, or think he had the right idea but went after the wrong people, or worse, are taking inspiration from him. He can't be the only of his kind.



Considering the amount of (diaper)Nazi-Fur's i've run into. i would not be surprised.

I know one UK fur who's cheering this massacre on. But I've cut contact with him.


----------



## Bobskunk (Jul 24, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> And that's the irony.  Nazi is the contraction of the National _Socialist_ Party.....Nazis are socialist, state-ists and likely fascists too. Unless the right wing has suddenly been over run with pro-socialist agenda of cradle-to-grave health care, education and employment, you can usually count on the term  "neo-nazi right wing" as just another leftist smear.



Wow this is retarded and I'm surprised to read this from you because I didn't think you'd be the sort to fall into this trap of thinking.

obligatory rebuttal: "does this mean you believe the democratic people's republic of north korea is a) democratic b) of the people and c) a republic?"  Same with the USA PATRIOT Act- just a name for something that goes against what the United States supposedly stands for.

Focus on actions and content, not names.  The Nazis were clearly right wing and I can't even begin to express my exasperation that you'd even contest this.  Also the right/left axis is different than the authoritarian/anarchist (i can't take anyone who says statist seriously, it's like the neckbeard libertarian version of 'crypto-fascist' that someone smart once said and they all latched on like parrots) axis.  You might also say the anarchism side is libertarian, or even argue a split between statist/anarchist and authoritarian/libertarian.  Whatever.

Stalin is left/authoritarian, Hitler is right/authoritarian.  It's bad enough hearing the "DEMOCRATS ARE KKK" garbage while also hearing dumb, boring, shitty spin like "YEAH WELL HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST LEFTIST."

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the reason this guy might have slipped under the radar might be for the same reason any DHS report that says "far right, likely christian white dudes might possibly commit a terrorist act" is met with "WHY ARE YOU RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE" or "OBAMA IS TRYING TO KILL ALL THE TRUE PATRIOTIC CONSERVATIVES" or, especially, "WHY ISN'T THIS REPORT ABOUT <s>MUSLIMS</s> ISLAMISTS AND ONLY <s>MUSLIMS</s> ISLAMISTS?"

The Left is still strong in Europe, unlike the United States.  However, the far right is also quite strong, and quite open- numerous parties exist all over Europe that might as well be described as Neo-Nazi skinheads, and they actually get a few seats.  More seats recently because of the kind of seething anger and hatred the mass murdering sociopath that committed the crimes this thread has demonstrated.  They feel their country, their culture, their living space is being threatened, and that scares them into violence.  Sure, they're being monitored, but not as much as they should be for fear they'll snap and attack the country for a perception of going easy on MUSLIM INVADERS or cracking down on the only people who CARE ABOUT THE COUNTRY'S FUTURE or something- turns out that doesn't help and they'll commit terrorism anyway.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> Smart stuff.


 
While we're on the topic of Hitler- People seem to have forgotten that that's how he got his start. Picking on some religious nationality that was different than the established christianity. "Those long-nosed greedy kikes want to destroy Germany!" is not so different from "Those dark-skinned violent Rag-heads want to destroy America!", and the uses they've had (restricting freedoms locally, starting pointless wars, branding people who are calling for reason as "____-lovers" and general hatemongering.) are shockingly similiar.

Say it with me- "They came for the communists, but I said nothing because I was not a communist..."


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 24, 2011)

Didn't the Nazis actually target leftists/socialists to put them in the concentration camps?

^Googled after writing that, yes they did.


----------



## anero (Jul 24, 2011)

This thread is stupid.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> Didn't the Nazis actually target leftists/socialists to put them in the concentration camps?
> 
> ^Googled after writing that, yes they did.



NSDAP originally started with socialists. But Hitler didn't like it when members of his cabinet took the Socialist name in the party "too seriously" then pretty much exiled them, where they fled to belgium, Croatia and some other eastern European country i cant name right now.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> NSDAP originally started with socialists. *But Hitler didn't like it when members of his cabinet took the Socialist name in the party "too seriously"* then pretty much exiled them, where they fled to belgium, Croatia and some other eastern European country i cant name right now.


So they were only ever socialist in a very limited fashion, if at all, and pretty much just had the name because, as Bobskunk said, it was buzzword abuse like "Democratic People's Republic of North Korea"? And overall they were just fascist, not socialist, which is not the same thing. And they actually killed left-wing thinkers in some numbers, and so this Nazis = Left-wing/socialist idea is just silly.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> While we're on the topic of Hitler- People seem to have forgotten that that's how he got his start. Picking on some religious nationality that was different than the established christianity. "Those long-nosed greedy kikes want to destroy Germany!" is not so different from "Those dark-skinned violent Rag-heads want to destroy America!", and the uses they've had (restricting freedoms locally, starting pointless wars, branding people who are calling for reason as "____-lovers" and general hatemongering.) are shockingly similiar.
> 
> Say it with me- "They came for the communists, but I said nothing because I was not a communist..."_ Fuck communists after what its done to eastern europe and south america IMO._



If you ask my Parents. 
 "They came for the Capitalists, but I said nothing because I was Scared shit less and fled to america..."

But you know. whatever. you guys can embrace our enemies with open arms! I for one will not.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> So they were only ever socialist in a very limited fashion, if at all, and pretty much just had the name because, as Bobskunk said, it was buzzword abuse like "Democratic People's Republic of North Korea"? And overall they were just fascist, not socialist, which is not the same thing. And they actually killed left-wing thinkers in some numbers, and so this Nazis = Left-wing/socialist idea is just silly.



But increased welfare programs for Aryan's is capitalist right?


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> But increased welfare programs for Aryan's is capitalist right?


That is socialist. It wasn't a horror of Naziism though. It had nothing to do with their violence, which is what we are talking about, violence. Socialism isn't bad because Nazis did it (in a limited fashion) nor are Nazis bad because they were socialist. They were bad because they were aggressively, violently nationalistic, racist, and socially conservative. Like this shooter. 

I am going to stop lest I get infracted for a derail.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> If you ask my Parents.
> "They came for the Capitalists, but I said nothing because I was Scared shit less and fled to america..."
> 
> But you know. whatever. you guys can embrace our enemies with open arms! I for one will not.


 
Good to know you get your political ideals directly from your parents.

But seriously, you need to learn the difference between "Doesn't blame a majority for the actions of the fringe elements" and "Support wholeheartedly". You don't always have to be working that us vs them mentality all the time.


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 24, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> obligatory rebuttal: "does this mean you believe the democratic people's republic of north korea is a) democratic b) of the people and c) a republic?"  Same with the USA PATRIOT Act- just a name for something that goes against what the United States supposedly stands for.



Certainly not. And if you re-read my posts for context, you'll find both of them eschewing the lazy habit of using simplistic labels instead of trying to find meaning through historical or regional context. 



> Focus on actions and content, not names.  The Nazis were clearly right wing and I can't even begin to express my exasperation that you'd even contest this.



Clearly you've fallen into the trap of confusing the term "right wing" (itself a media construct) with authoritarian.  But focusing on actions and content, you'll find that Germany circa post 1918 to 1939 was by modern definitions a socialist state.  Hence the ruling part's name of "National Socialists."   Explain their nationalism, patriatism, nascent cradle-to-grave state control of health care, work and education....even (and I'll be  you've been to one too) the concept of Kindergarten. True they did persecute what they perceived to be socialists....people we would probably identify as Communists. 



> i can't take anyone who says statist seriously, it's like the neckbeard libertarian version of 'crypto-fascist' that someone smart once said and they all latched on like parrots) axis.  You might also say the anarchism side is libertarian, or even argue a split between statist/anarchist and authoritarian/libertarian.  Whatever.



For someone that prefers actions over labels, you sure seem to use a lot of them. 





> The Left is still strong in Europe, unlike the United States.  However, the far right is also quite strong, and quite open- numerous parties exist all over Europe that might as well be described as Neo-Nazi skinheads, and they actually get a few seats.  More seats recently because of the kind of seething anger and hatred the mass murdering sociopath that committed the crimes this thread has demonstrated.



Certainly the left (in the European context of the word) is just a strong as it ever was in Europe; but their Right does seems to be winning more than just a few seats these days.  They're not restricting immigration or banning burkas as part of their environmental policy....its core policy for even left leaning governments these days.

The real challenge is trying to summarize decades of European political history withing the sound-bite window of a vBulletin edit box.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> *Good to know you get your political ideals directly from your parents.*
> 
> But seriously, you need to learn the difference between "Doesn't blame a majority for the actions of the fringe elements" and "Support wholeheartedly". You don't always have to be working that us vs them mentality all the time.



I don't. I'm just stating they were persecuted for their religious and political beliefs and fled to the United States. 


*"Doesn't blame a majority for the actions of the fringe elements"


*Seriously? I've been saying that all the time. I just got grouped, accused, in with that Norwegian extremist just because I'm Conservative,Christian, and a Gun enthusiast. Practice what you preach.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> That is socialist. It wasn't a horror of Naziism though. It had nothing to do with their violence, which is what we are talking about, violence. Socialism isn't bad because Nazis did it (in a limited fashion) nor are Nazis bad because they were socialist. They were bad because they were aggressively, violently nationalistic, racist, and socially conservative. Like this shooter.
> 
> I am going to stop lest I get infracted for a derail.


 
Nazis weren't socialists- they blamed socialism for exploiting the class system capitalism creates. Long story short, Fascism involves privately owned property supporting the political party before everyone else. Socialism involves controll the means of production and the labor force directly by the state with no private business in the first place.

Edit: The social programs supporting Aryans over other people are strictly fascist.



MaverickCowboy said:


> I don't. I'm just stating they were persecuted for their religious and political beliefs and fled to the United States.
> 
> *"Doesn't blame a majority for the actions of the fringe elements"
> *Seriously? I've been saying that all the time. I just got grouped, accused, in with that Norwegian extremist just because I'm Conservative,Christian, and a Gun enthusiast. Practice what you preach.


 
Ahh, the cycle of abuse continues. :V 

Nobody grouped you in with anyone- you did that just fine when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt on a poorly worded statement and asked if he was reading it right.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> Nazis weren't socialists- they blamed socialism for exploiting the class system capitalism creates. Long story short, Fascism involves privately owned property supporting the political party before everyone else. Socialism involves controll the means of production and the labor force directly by the state with *no private business in the first place.*



That is Communism, Not Socialism. Spent 4 years in a tropical jungle hell hole fighting this bullshit. The existence of Private businesses is the main definition between Socialist, and communist in absolute terms/finite goals.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> That is Communism, Not Socialism. Spent 4 years in a tropical jungle hell hole fighting this bullshit. The existence of Private businesses is the main definition between Socialist, and communist in absolute terms/finite goals.


 
That explains why you dislike them so much. But I thought the main difference was socialists are payed based on work performed, and communists get just what they need and have all their stuff taken. :V


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> That explains why you dislike them so much. But I thought the main difference was socialists are payed based on work performed, and communists get just what they need and have all their stuff taken. :V



Neither are equally exclusive in practice, Private business merely "existing" on the other hand is.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> Nazis weren't socialists- they blamed socialism for exploiting the class system capitalism creates. Long story short, Fascism involves privately owned property supporting the political party before everyone else. Socialism involves controll the means of production and the labor force directly by the state with no private business in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm talking about in my town, surroundings. In othewords. In real life. Not on a forum.

When the giffords shooting happened. My Car got keyed on the basis of an NRA sticker in my window.
I got spat on by a group of outraged students thinking i was "tehadist". I'm perfectly justified in being defensive/worried/what have you when I've otherwise have not gone out of my way in person to be a fucking dick/ get in peoples faces unless provoked.

Now Norway happened. A friend personally told me, "I'ts Christians like you, And your gun fetish and barbaric conservatism" that caused Norway. Seriously. WTF?


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Neither are equally exclusive in practice, Private business merely "existing" on the other hand is.


 


MaverickCowboy said:


> I'm talking about in my town, surroundings. In othewords. In real life. Not on a forum.
> 
> When the giffords shooting happened. My Car got keyed on the basis of an NRA sticker in my window.
> I got spat on by a group of outraged students thinking i was "tehadist" on my own campus.


 
Don't double post. :V

Socialism and capitalism aren't diametrically opposed.  :V

And I'm sorry that happened to you, but that's still no excuse for you acting poorly either. :V


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> Don't double post. :V
> 
> Socialism and capitalism aren't diametrically opposed.  :V
> 
> And I'm sorry that happened to you, but that's still no excuse for you acting* poorly* either. :V



Edited to add more.

Expressing my opinion is "acting poorly?" WELP.


You've acted terribly and shit posted on this furry board to. Where'd you get your high horse mister?


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Edited to add more.
> 
> Expressing my opinion is "acting poorly?" WELP.
> 
> You've acted terribly and shit posted on this furry board to. Where'd you get your high horse mister?


 
We're fine with you having your opinion. It's the way you're expressing it. :V

Okay, your friend was a dick to you. We are not your friend. We did not judge you based off your car sticker, we judged you based on statements you made.

And nope, I haven't, don't have one. :V


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> We're fine with you having your opinion. It's the way you're expressing it. :V
> 
> Okay, your friend was a dick to you. We are not your friend. We did not judge you based off your car sticker, we judged you* based on statements *you made.
> 
> And nope, I haven't, don't have one. :V



The mans a terrorist. what else did you want?


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> The mans a terrorist. what else did you want?


 
To please, please tell us that Attaman wasn't reading that correctly and that you weren't, in fact, saying the guy was a leftist extremist. This time without the pointless antagonism. :V

Edit: No really. I apologize for getting annoyed at you and other percieved slights, but just because we're not wanting to continue the endless cycle of dehumanizing convenient political/religious targets does not mean we're "embracing our enemies" (which is a statement wrong on multiple levels) and something I kinda took offense too. :V


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> To please, please tell us that Attaman wasn't reading that correctly and that you weren't, in fact, saying the guy was a leftist extremist. This time without the pointless antagonism. :V



I already said that! ???


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 24, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> I already said that! ???


 
Let's just shake hands and get back on topic. I only have so much loathing in a day. :V


Nazis. Mostly nationalist, very little socialist.


----------



## Attaman (Jul 24, 2011)

A bit of coverage of the memorial services.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 25, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> I'm Conservative,Christian, and a Gun enthusiast. Practice what you preach.


You really fail at this furfag thing, don't you? :V


----------



## Commiecomrade (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm back with another ultimatum. Last time I said I gave up on politics forever. Well, I take back my views. I'll be a voter.

Still, however, I'm giving up on debating with anyone. That to me was the specific cause of negative feeling. I'll still listen to others' arguments, but not present my own unless asked. So I guess this is the whole post.

IS THIS BETTER?


----------



## Bliss (Jul 25, 2011)

Commiecomrade said:


> I'll still listen to others' arguments, but not present my own unless asked.


Tell, tell, tell! I want either to rip you to pieces or hugz and never let go. :V



> IS THIS BETTER?


Very much so. <3


----------



## Bliss (Jul 25, 2011)

The main target apparently was previous Prime Minister of Norway, Gro Harlem Brundtland.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jul 25, 2011)

Fox News: Islam, Islam, Islam, Islam. "One of the first non-Islam terror attacks since 1995"

Seething.


----------



## Xenke (Jul 25, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Fox News: Islam, Islam, Islam, Islam. "One of the first non-Islam terror attacks since 1995"
> 
> Seething.



I stopped listening at the misuse of "exception that proves the rule".

But it _really_ shouldn't be surprising that FOX News said something retarded.

I mean really.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> You really fail at this furfag thing, don't you? :V



what do you mean?


----------



## Bliss (Jul 25, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> what do you mean?


Our conversations can be summarized as if you are like my right-wing nutcase baby whom I nurse well up to the age of ten for my own end of staying thin.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Nope


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 25, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Our conversations can be summarized as if you are like my right-wing nutcase baby whom I nurse well up to the age of ten for my own end of staying thin.



I'm having a really hard time understanding the words you're typing Lizzie :V


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 25, 2011)

it's eerily bordering ageplay,


----------



## Bliss (Jul 25, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> I'm having a really hard time understanding the words you're typing Lizzie :V


Begrijp je engels? I made my philosophic explanation of our interaction very clear. 3:



MaverickCowboy said:


> it's eerily bordering ageplay,


Bordering what?


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Begrijp je engels? I made my philosophic explanation of our interaction very clear. 3:



Not really. lol.


----------



## HyBroMcYenapants (Jul 25, 2011)

Lets talk about the Suspect and get on topic please.

So Norway's prison system......


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jul 25, 2011)

HyBroMcYenapants said:


> Lets talk about the Suspect and get on topic please.
> 
> So Norway's prison system......


As far as I read, twenty one years at most for his case, even though it's possible to extend it by five every time his time in prison is over.

Turns out he wrote a 1500 page hymn for the people, possibly years before he even came to that camp.
My country was named three hundred times, always in a good light - and I do not like it. Incredibly acknowledgable with our current goverment, as far as articles state.
I don't like that. As far as I know, that camp was a left wing camp that had a "Boycott Israel" day before the excecution date. Well, I get all my information from the same source, so that's not really accurate.
Mr. Anders Behring Breivik was fairly Anti-Islamist and Anti - Palestinian, and a "Zionist", even though it's easier to call him fanatic. I guess the worldwide media will now use his image as a wide range terrorist to portrait my nation. Bad words, that man wrote.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 25, 2011)

Satellite One said:


> Turns out he wrote a 1500 page hymn for the people, possibly years before he even came to that camp.


"I'mma templar. Brothers and sister, assemble and push back those marxists!" >:C



> As far as I know, that camp was a left wing camp that had a "Boycott Israel" day before the excecution date.


How do you boycott Israel?



> I guess the worldwide media will now use his image as a wide range terrorist to portrait my nation.


Palestine comes up and everybody has a nation. C:


----------



## Attaman (Jul 25, 2011)

Satellite One said:


> Mr. Anders Behring Breivik was fairly Anti-Islamist and Anti - Palestinian, and a "Zionist", even though it's easier to call him fanatic. I guess the worldwide media will now use his image as a wide range terrorist to portrait my nation. Bad words, that man wrote.


Don't worry, articles and the internet are already on the job to paint this as evil Norway's fault for giving in and rolling over to them dirty arabs rolling in. I'd be less worried about your nation being smeared and more worried that half the people who're defending it are going to say "If he had killed Muslims instead it wouldn't be as terrible an event", or in other words smearing by association.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm having trouble reading what sattelite one wrote. can someone clear it up for me?


----------



## Attaman (Jul 25, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> I'm having trouble reading what sattelite one wrote. can someone clear it up for me?


 Theoretically they can keep slapping on another five years when it's time for him to be release.

He's afraid that people are going to suddenly think Israel is evil because the shooter liked it (Israel) and was against Muslims.


----------



## Mayfurr (Jul 26, 2011)

Attaman said:


> Don't worry, articles and the internet are already on the job to paint this as evil Norway's fault for giving in and rolling over to them dirty arabs rolling in. I'd be less worried about your nation being smeared and more worried that half the people who're defending it are going to say "If he had killed Muslims instead it wouldn't be as terrible an event", or in other words smearing by association.



Not to mention Israel is doing a thorough job of shitting in its own nest reputation-wise _without _any help from whatever a Norwegian mass-murdering nutcase can come up with.


----------



## Alstor (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh look. Glenn Beck decided to post his opinion about this.


----------



## Endless Humiliation (Jul 26, 2011)

Alstor said:


> Oh look. Glenn Beck decided to post his opinion about this.



Ahahaha

Isn't this like EXACTLY the same sort of shit Ward Churchill got fired for?

Comparing victims of a tragedy to NAZIS


Goddamn what a dumb dumb bastard


----------



## Tycho (Jul 26, 2011)

Endless Humiliation said:


> Ahahaha
> 
> Isn't this like EXACTLY the same sort of shit Ward Churchill got fired for?
> 
> ...



At this point we all know Beck is out to make everyone left of Genghis Khan (I love that analogy) do spit takes and blow headgaskets, and little more.  He's a troll.

And we all know what to do with trolls.  The unfunny non-entertaining ones, at least.


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jul 26, 2011)

Buy enough copies of their book to propel them to #1 on Amazon and make them a New York Times best seller?


----------



## Endless Humiliation (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm sure this is going to make me sound like a sick individual but having followed Glenn Beck's career trajectory off-and-on since his show on Headline News I think it's so adorable how hard he tries. 

My friend called me about a month ago to express his befuddlement over Beck's misinterpretation of "Born in the USA" (a topic which at this point is old enough to have sired multiple children).

As if that wasn't enough though he had to somehow drag Woody Guthrie into it and lambast them both as "un-American". 

Dude, have you forgotten your morning zoo crew origins? 
How can you hate Woody Guthrie? He wasn't even healthy enough to join the CPUSA like Seeger. 

I'm sure in his heady alcoholic days he read The Illuminatus! Trilogy and Atlas Shrugged in the course of a month (or skimmed them) and when he awoke a doughy Mormon with a radio show he managed to assemble enough of a mythology to keep people enraptured until they got to one of his hokey live shows. 

God Bless America :')


----------



## Lobar (Jul 26, 2011)

Pat Buchanan - "Breivik may be right"


----------



## Bliss (Jul 26, 2011)

Haha, crazy people spouting. xD


----------



## Aleu (Jul 26, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Haha, crazy people spouting. xD


You might find it funny, but here people take them seriously. We've got a shitton of sheep here.


----------



## CrazyLee (Jul 26, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> But you know. whatever. you guys can embrace our enemies with open arms! I for one will not.



LOL *WHAT THE FUCK*? Are you saying now that all Muslims are our enemies?



MaverickCowboy said:


> because I'm  Conservative,Christian, and a Gun enthusiast.


Hey, he's almost like an older version of Rukh. :V



Satellite One said:


> As far as I know, that camp was a left wing camp that  had a "Boycott Israel" day before the excecution date. Well, I get all  my information from the same source, so that's not really accurate.



Strange, all I see from that source is that they were discussing the idea of Palestine being recognized by the UN as it's own country. So Palestine being it's own country is somehow "Boycotting" Israel?



Mojotech said:


> Socialism involves controll the means of  production and the labor force directly by the state with no private  business in the first place.


That sounds more like Communism rather than socialism. The two aren't exactly the same thing, and there's differences.



Alstor said:


> Oh look. Glenn Beck decided to post his opinion about this.


Later in the radio podcast he starts agreeing with Geert Wilder, the far right Dutch politician who believes all muslims should be kicked out of Europe.

Yes, let's make Europe a homogenous, white christian area. No brown skinned people or other religions need apply. White power and all that stuff. Sounds a lot like the policies of a certain German politician with a dirty sanchez mustache in the 1930s.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 26, 2011)

CrazyLee said:


> Yes, let's make Europe a homogenous, white christian area. No brown skinned people or other religions need apply. White power and all that stuff. Sounds a lot like the policies of a certain German politician with a dirty sanchez mustache in the 1930s.


It's funny how Europe's 'Christian roots' are always played, as if nothing else has ever happened or existed here, or all our progress came from Sky Daddy and not from science and social reforms that many times had to fight against these 'Christian roots'.


----------



## Tycho (Jul 26, 2011)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> Buy enough copies of their book to propel them to #1 on Amazon and make them a New York Times best seller?



FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

fucking NY Times bestseller lists.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 26, 2011)

Tycho said:


> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
> 
> fucking NY Times bestseller lists.


Sarah Palin, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Ann Coulter and Ann  Coulter did it too.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 26, 2011)

Aleu said:


> You might find it funny, but here people take them seriously. We've got a shitton of sheep here.


Hey I raise sheep and they take offense to that.


----------



## Aleu (Jul 26, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Sarah Palin, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Ann Coulter and Ann  Coulter did it too.


Ann Coulter is why blonds should not politics :V


----------



## Bliss (Jul 26, 2011)

Aleu said:


> Ann Coulter is why blonds should not politics :V


Me should not be allowed politics? 3;


----------



## Ekho (Jul 27, 2011)

Alstor said:


> Oh look. Glenn Beck decided to post his opinion about this.



*sigh* Of course he would say something like that... what an insensitive douche.


----------



## Lobar (Jul 27, 2011)

Aleu said:


> Ann Coulter is why blonds should not politics :V


 
so much so that it became a trope


----------



## Azure (Jul 27, 2011)

More like MAnn Coulter. I swear she has a fucking adams apple.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 27, 2011)

CrazyLee said:


> Hey, he's almost like an older version of Rukh. :V



I am NOTHING like Rukh. I've tried telling that fucker to quit being such a tool. Ask anyone here. I've called him out bullshit on these forums before multiple times.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> I am NOTHING like Rukh.


I don't think Rukh can shoot a gun, otherwise there is a match. You two should hook up.

 Please do not make shooting.

_EDIT: PS I meant 'datingwise'. 3;_


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> I don't think Rukh can shoot a gun, otherwise there is a match. You two should hook up.
> 
> *Please do not make shooting.*





*GO FUCK YOURSELF.*

Have a nice day.


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> I don't think Rukh can shoot a gun, otherwise there is a match. You two should hook up.
> 
> Please do not make shooting.


Hahah I saw that. That's funny
Comparing them to the shooters.
Hahahah what a funny guy.
:I


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Hahah I saw that. That's funny
> Comparing them to the shooters.
> Hahahah what a funny guy.
> :I


It wasn't (meant to be) funny until...



MaverickCowboy said:


> *GO FUCK YOURSELF.*
> 
> Have a nice day.


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> It wasn't (meant to be) funny until...


It wasn't funny at all. It wasn't cool, dude
Go back to your dog crate *whips whips*
*whips*


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

Clayton said:


> It wasn't funny at all. It wasn't cool, dude
> Go back to your dog crate *whips whips*
> *whips*


Williamca is 'reporting a post'. xD


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Williamca is 'reporting a post'. xD


I don't know who that is *whip*


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I don't know who that is *whip*


Stop whipping me! If this was the 'American Debt' thread it would've been appropriate. :V


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Stop whipping me! If this was the 'American Debt' thread it would've been appropriate. :V


I have no interest in politics!!


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I have no interest in politics!!


Stop that *whip, whip* thing, nonetheless!


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Stop that *whip, whip* thing, nonetheless!


That's the last straw
I'm comin for you


----------



## InflatedSnake (Jul 27, 2011)

What the _fuck_ happened to this thread?


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

InflatedSnake said:


> What the fuck happened to this thread?


*Sorry.* D:

'Please do not make shooting' is just a catch phrase I use. I apologize to MaverickBoy for failing to note the sensible subject at hand. Id est: it came out wrong, wrong, _wrong_.


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> *Sorry.* D:
> 
> 'Please do not make shooting' is just a catch phrase I use. I apologize to MaverickBoy for failing to note the sensible subject at hand. Id est: it came out wrong, wrong, _wrong_.


Good
Good boy
Now we can get back to talking about sad things

Never 4get virginia tech


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Never 4get virginia tech


'4get' what?


----------



## Volkodav (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> '4get' what?


...
forget
virginia tech massacre


----------



## Bliss (Jul 27, 2011)

Clayton said:


> ...
> forget
> virginia tech massacre


I shall google!


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 27, 2011)

People should just stop shooting other people.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 27, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> People should just stop shooting other people.


If only, if only, the woodpecker cried . . .

So I guess the body count was lowered. Has this been discussed yet?


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jul 27, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> If only, if only, the woodpecker cried . . .
> 
> So I guess the body count was lowered. Has this been discussed yet?



The bark on the tree was as soft as the sky
the wolf waits below hungry and lonely and cries to the moon IF ONLY IF ONLY.
if only, if only the moon speaks no reply
reflecting the sun and all that's gone by
be strong, my weary wolf, turn around boldly
fly high, my baby bird, myï»¿ angel, my only.

I dunno if body count really is a factor as to the depth of the tragedy. Would one person more or less dying have a bigger impact? Even if only a few people died the reason they died is the tragic part I think.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jul 27, 2011)

Body count was lowered as people were switched to a 'missing' status, rather than a 'dead' status.

They're still looking for the missing.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 27, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Body count was lowered as people were switched to a 'missing' status, rather than a 'dead' status.
> 
> They're still looking for the missing.


Oh, god. After this much time, it's hard to believe their bodies aren't just in the water.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jul 27, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> Oh, god. After this much time, it's hard to believe their bodies aren't just in the water.



As grim as it sounds this is very likely as the shooter could have shot them and caused water to flood their body cavity thus causing them to sink but with decay they may pop back up in a day or two unless wedged under a rock or something else :C


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 27, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Body count was lowered as people were switched to a 'missing' status, rather than a 'dead' status.
> 
> They're still looking for the missing.



There was also some double counting during the pandemonium of the first hours.  



dinosaurdammit said:


> As grim as it sounds this is very likely as the shooter could have shot them and caused water to flood their body cavity thus causing them to sink but with decay they may pop back up in a day or two unless wedged under a rock or something else :C



Local current's need to be taken into account too.


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 27, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> I don't think Rukh can shoot a gun


 Would you like to test that theory?


Irreverent said:


> There was also some double counting during the pandemonium of the first hours.


That is understandable.


----------



## Tycho (Jul 27, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Would you like to test that theory?



Oh, please do.


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 27, 2011)

Text messages were released between a mother and her daughter who was on the island.

Mom, don't panic...But there's a gunman on the loose here


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jul 27, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Local current's need to be taken into account too.



I so forgot about that. Even wind can affect if more bodies are found or not. The loss of life is irrelevant the fact loss of life occurred is the tragedy.


----------



## Aleu (Jul 27, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Text messages were released between a mother and her daughter who was on the island.
> 
> Mom, don't panic...But there's a gunman on the loose here


Interesting choice of words. Really.


----------



## CrazyLee (Jul 27, 2011)

Lobar said:


> so much so that it became a trope


 I've noticed that a lot of Republican wives look so much like stepford wives. Short, 50's style blonde hair, creepy stare, tend to believe in obeying their husbands and staying in the kitchen, ect. Coulter's almost the exact opposite of that.




InflatedSnake said:


> What the _fuck_ happened to this thread?


Conservatives. :V


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 27, 2011)

CrazyLee said:


> Conservatives. :V




Seriously? Is that the best you can do?


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 28, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Seriously? Is that the best you can do?


 
It's pretty accurate.


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 28, 2011)

How about we get back on the topic of the shooting.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (Jul 28, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> How about we get back on the topic of the shooting.



LOL, on a Furry forum? Too busy blaming people like me for the shooting. Juicy tasty argument.

Who are you to call for reason? You incite some inflammatory threads yourself more than one occasion.


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Jul 28, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Who are you to call for reason? You incite some inflammatory threads yourself more than one occasion.



At least it had to do with the topic on hand. For the most part. I won't deny sometimes threads went off topic. But that was mostly because people were asking questions and such, that when I answered it did go off topic. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Either you ignore them because it would derail the thread, and they attack you because you don't respond. Or you do respond, and they attack you because you derail the thread. Pick your poison.

And the reason I speak up on this thread, is because of what the topic of this thread is. This thread should be about the mass murder of children, not political bashing and what not.


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 28, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> This thread should be about the mass murder of children, not political bashing and what not.



Indeed it should be about the victims.  And yet, curiously,  the first thing the Leftists did was make it political by trying to blame the far right for the actions of one of their own idealistic followers.   It may not be the double plus good newspeak, but is not far from it.

The irony is both delicious and tragic.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 28, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Indeed it should be about the victims.  And yet, curiously,  the first thing the Leftists did was make it political by trying to blame the far right for the actions of one of their own idealistic followers.   It may not be the double plus good newspeak, but is not far from it.


"Them al-Qaida bomb us again! Show them cultural marxists what happens when you be so liberal!" :V

Irreverent, I'm dissappoint to find out you're not Leftist enough. Now please tell me more of your stock options so I may get joy in the thought of growing capital.


----------



## Attaman (Jul 28, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> curiously,  the first thing the Leftists did was make it political by trying to blame the far right for the actions of one of their own idealistic followers.


As I asked Maverick a few posts back, please tell me I'm reading this improperly and you're not saying it was one of the Leftists' idealistic followers. Because, really, I've had enough with everything from Glen Beck saying that Anders shot up a Hitler Youth camp to politicians in Italy praising him for his actions. Also, it's similarly ironic (Irony within irony within... we need to go deeper?) that it was perfectly fine to publish articles about how Al Queda is behind this / it's them evil Muslims, but once news comes out that it's the poster child of Aryan Superiority papers are debating whether it's terrorism, he's being played down as "believed suspect", and so on.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 28, 2011)

I think our resident right-wingers are speaking some sense. My boyfriend is a Republican, practically Libertarian; when this happened, he came to me crying because he was a afraid that people would look at him and see Breivik. It is not fair, and I am afraid that we are running a big risk of making the tensions which lead up to this  even worse. It was rage and fear and dehumanization of the "enemy" that created this  atrocity, and I think should take care not to fuel those fires again. It is likely  that more caution should be taken to differentiate the sane and good  people on the right--that is, most of them--from this man. "Those damn left-wingers, those damn right-wingers," was Breivik's  mantra, maybe with a word swapped out, maybe said longer and louder, but  his mantra nonetheless. We should try not to repeat it. And with that in mind I would like to apologize for anything I have said which was a repetition of that mantra, it was wrong and I was wrong. 

That said, the attack itself was politically motivated. The attack was made by a right-wing extremist. A radical and likely insane one, a wild outlier, but a right-winger. He  associated with right-wing political parties, he called himself  conservative and Christian. He killed at least 70 people specifically because they were left-wing, and injured many more. How can we not talk about that? How can we not acknowledge that? Are we not allowed to discuss that? Are we not allowed to discuss religion, or religious tolerance, when a Muslim attacks? I sense a thick, ugly stripe of hypocrisy running through both camps, here. 

I think it is a thing that is okay to talk about and probably should be talked about. But it would probably be best to also seek the facilitation of mutual respect and trust. I do not think there are many right-winger who aren't just as horrified by this as anyone else.


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 28, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Irreverent, I'm dissappoint to find out you're not Leftist enough.



Perhaps a stint in a re-education camp, some caged-rat-face therapy and two weeks of R&R drinking clove spice Victory-gin is required to cure me? 



> Now please tell me more of your stock options so I may get joy in the thought of growing capital.


 
Worse than a sugar baron, I'm a Telecommunications (ISP and Wireless) privateer. 



Attaman said:


> As I asked Maverick a few posts back, please tell me I'm reading this improperly and you're not saying it was one of the Leftists' idealistic followers.



But I am.  Unless your historical revisionism view of the "right-wing" includes Social Democrat collectivists suffering from Templar delusions and an infatuation with the Turner Diaries as a mainstay of "right-wing ideology."  What's next, "right-wing Communists?"  I'm surprised that the media hasn't already coined this phrase in its self induced panic to distance itself from this attack.  

Granted, I'll concede that the Social Democrats are on the right-wing of Norway's political spectrum, but that entire spectrum is so skewed to the left it makes standard democrats look like Republicans.



> Because, really, I've had enough with everything from Glen Beck saying that Anders shot up a Hitler Youth camp to politicians in Italy praising him for his actions.



The foolishness around this by no means limited to the left.  What is interesting is that, stripped of its Templar overtones, the 1,500 manifesto reads like policy for many of Europe's fragile centrist governments; vis a via immigration and civil liberties (dress codes et al).  



> Also, it's similarly ironic (Irony within irony within... we need to go deeper?) that it was perfectly fine to publish articles about how Al Queda is behind this / it's them evil Muslims,



The knee-jerk reaction to tar Muslims with this brush is unfortunate but predictable, given the alarming rise of home grown Islamist terrorists.  Bombings and/or failed plots in London, Madrid, Mumbay and Toronto certainly lend credence to the theory during the actual pandemonium of the event. 



> but once news comes out that it's the poster child of Aryan Superiority papers are debating whether it's terrorism, he's being played down as "believed suspect", and so on.



I'm not seeing that in the media here, there appears to be no doubt as to his guilt.  What may be starting to occur is blame-storming for why this guy wasn't being tracked by Norway's government.  Or why a sea-faring nation has no boats or helicopters for its SWAT an Special Forces.   Long after the criminal trial and judgement for this vial act is over, the civil suits will follow for decades.  The current Norwegian government may even fall in the next general election....possibly to the Social Democrats.  Now that's irony.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 28, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Perhaps a stint in a re-education camp, some caged-rat-face therapy and two weeks of R&R drinking clove spice Victory-gin is required to cure me?


Naww, just visit US&A. 

Look me in the eye and, please, tell the truth: did you vote for this man..? I need to know even if it hurts greatly. 3;


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 28, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Look me in the eye and, please, tell the truth: did you vote for this man..? I need to know even if it hurts greatly. 3;



Sadly no, I'm in the wrong electoral district.  Ford is the mayor of a city an hour to the east from where I live.  But I did work with my local mayoral candidate to successfully unseat our incumbent Conservative pedagog.  Politicians are like diapers and they need to be change often for the same reason.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 28, 2011)

Irreverent said:


> Sadly no, I'm in the wrong electoral district.  Ford is the mayor of a city an hour to the east from where I live.  But I did work with my local mayoral candidate to successfully unseat our incumbent Conservative pedagog.  Politicians are like diapers and they need to be change often for the same reason.


And so the otters and magic hags danced and pranced around FaF. C:

NOW PUT THAT GUN AWAY, THIS IS A LIBERAL! :V


----------



## Defuret (Jul 28, 2011)

> he called himself conservative and Christian


Well, let's see what he had to say about the second part:



			
				Anders Breivik said:
			
		

> As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings





			
				Anders Breivik said:
			
		

> Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess Iâ€™m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe. If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God.



He called himself a "cultural" Christian, note. The guy doesn't even believe in any of it, he just likes the traditions and trappings for cultural reasons (mainly because it ain't Islam). Funnily enough that's not too far from what Ricky Dawkins himself was saying not too long ago (if you can believe it). Pretty far from the "fundamentalist" the knee-jerk media invented but I don't exactly see them going out of their way to correct themselves. This deal strongly reminds me of that other ahem, "right-wing Christian" bogeyman (Lared L. Loughner), who disappointingly turned out to be a liberal nihilist/atheist anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist. After those revelations the media silence was deafening. 

You'd think that of all people, _furries_ would be the first to understand that enthusiastically jumping to believe initial media sensationalism without looking a bit deeper into the story is a bad idea. It's not like the furry fandom isn't victim to similar patterns of misinformation from many of the same media sources.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 28, 2011)

Defuret said:


> Well, let's see what he had to say about the second part:
> 
> Immediately starts ranting about Dawkins.
> 
> ...


 
You have a posting style remarkably similiar to Glenn Beck.


----------



## Defuret (Jul 28, 2011)

One fact =/= rant.

Media sensationalism =/= persecution.

Seriously bro? Reducing my statements into an infantile straw-man recap and bringing up the argumentum ad Glenn Beck? 

Judging from your previous input, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## CrazyLee (Jul 28, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Seriously? Is that the best you can do?


And you missed the :V at the end.

Even if I wasn't being half serious, I wasn't the one who made a thread about the murder of innocents into a political argument. Other people, yourself included, did. And you are a self-proclaimed conservative.



Irreverent said:


> And yet, curiously,  the first thing the Leftists did was make it political by trying to blame the far right for the actions of one of their own idealistic followers.



Strange, your arguments. Before, you called the nazis leftist. Now this. It seems like you spend all your arguments trying to make anyone left of center look pure evil.

The fact of the matter is, the shooter is right-wing. He believed in a homogenous Europe where only white Christians should live, and where Muslims and other immigrants should be kicked out. This is the kind of idea that's been kicked around by a lot of growing movements in Europe, the idea that Muslim immigrants are bad and should be removed from Europe. An idea of a pure white Europe that reminds me a lot of a certain German Politician of the '30s and '40s with a small mustache, who ALSO wanted a white christian Europe. Anti-islamic retoric is becoming very popular for the right in Europe. Look up Geert Wilders,   This is a guy who believes that the Koran is like the Mein Kampf, and thinks Muslims should be kicked out of Europe.

Just because some right wingers hate muslims and shoot up camps doesn't mean all right wingers do. But they're still right wing. Stop getting butthurt over someone being grouped in the same general political spectrum as you guys.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (Jul 28, 2011)

Defuret said:


> Seriously bro?


 
Me? Not taking you seriously? Whatever gave you THAT idea? I mean, of course I'm going to take someone I've never seen post before more seriously than the other Conservatives on this board. :V


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 28, 2011)

CrazyLee said:


> Strange, your arguments. Before, you called the nazis leftist.



They were (and are) the National Socialist party.  Many socialist in your local brand of "right wingers?"  I expect not.  Unless of course, you're a Norwegian Social Democrat...in which case, I beg your forgiveness.



> It seems like you spend all your arguments trying to make anyone left of center look pure evil.



Not at all.  The evil is not where you sit on the political spectrum, its the willingness to blindly accept labels and tags provided by the Media without questioning their veracity or their agenda.  It appears that critical thinking and questioning authority has skipped a generation; maybe two.   A lesser evil is to assume that terms like "right wing" and "left wing" have universal definitions, with no variation at regional levels.  Are the Norwegian Social Democrats to the right of the Norwegian political spectrum?  Absolutely.  Are they right wing?  Not by a long shot.  Certainly they are to the left of US/UK side of the political spectrum.  How inconvenient, eh?



> The fact of the matter is, the shooter is right-wing.



Really?  Where you live have the Catholic/Templar, socialist democrat, collectivists over run the "right wing?"  Where I live, they seem to be the boring Protestant/Capitalist type.



> Anti-islamic retoric is becoming very popular for the right in Europe.



Sadly, its also becoming very popular (well, populist) for the European centre-left.  Whether as ideology or pragmatic attempt at political survival has still to be seen. 



> Stop getting butthurt over someone being grouped in the same general political spectrum as you guys.



I can't speak for the other "guys", but no one has been grouped into my general political spectrum.  And for the record, I'm not butthurt....I'm amused. 



Defuret said:


> You'd think that of all people, _furries_ would be the first to understand that enthusiastically jumping to believe initial media sensationalism without looking a bit deeper into the story is a bad idea.



But doing so would limit the amount of drama and lemming-ism in the fandom.  What fun would that be?


----------



## Defuret (Jul 28, 2011)

> Me? Not taking you seriously? Whatever gave you THAT idea? I mean, of course I'm going to take someone I've never seen post before more seriously than the other Conservatives on this board. :V



Ahhh. Gotcha. I get it now. Knowledge of current events is directly proportional to how much you post on the Furaffinity forums. Intuitively I would have assumed the _inverse_ but thank you for correcting me.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jul 28, 2011)

Defuret said:


> He called himself a "cultural" Christian, note. The guy doesn't even believe in any of it, he just likes the traditions and trappings for cultural reasons (mainly because it ain't Islam). Funnily enough that's not too far from what Ricky Dawkins himself was saying not too long ago (if you can believe it). Pretty far from the "fundamentalist" the knee-jerk media invented but I don't exactly see them going out of their way to correct themselves. This deal strongly reminds me of that other ahem, "right-wing Christian" bogeyman (Lared L. Loughner), who disappointingly turned out to be a liberal nihilist/atheist anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist. After those revelations the media silence was deafening.
> 
> You'd think that of all people, _furries_ would be the first to understand that enthusiastically jumping to believe initial media sensationalism without looking a bit deeper into the story is a bad idea. It's not like the furry fandom isn't victim to similar patterns of misinformation from many of the same media sources.


I will totally submit to all of that! I was probably wrong and should have been more careful.

You are absolutely missing my point though, and being really very unnecessarily hostile about it. Even if he was those things, what I'm trying to say is, while we can and perhaps should discuss it, we should be careful to distinguish him as a madman and an outlier who is not representative of those things. I am reaching out an olive branch here, friend. You are biting me for it, you are saying, "That damn leftist," (actually I am centrist), "that damn leftist." It is not constructive discussion.

EDIT: Not that you're the only one I suppose. Calls for sanity and respect don't seem to ring very loud here or really anywhere on the internet, I don't know why I try.


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 29, 2011)

I don't know if the killer can really be placed anywhere in the  political spectrum when he thinks he's some kind of inheritor to the  Templar Knights and Crusaders. That's not exactly standard political  program fare ...

Also, apart from the fact that he opposed the actual immigration laws,  what proof do we have that he's right-wing ? Did he explain his  political opinions in his TL;DR manifesto ? 'Coz just opposing one, non economic, point of the other parties program doesn't place you at the opposite side of the  spectrum.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 29, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> I don't know if the killer can really be placed anywhere in the  political spectrum when he thinks he's some kind of inheritor to the  Templar Knights and Crusaders. That's not exactly standard political  program fare ...
> 
> Also, apart from the fact that he opposed the actual immigration laws,  what proof do we have that he's right-wing ? Did he explain his  political opinions in his TL;DR manifesto ? 'Coz just opposing one, non economic, point of the other parties program doesn't place you at the opposite side of the  spectrum.


"Marxist Hunter - Norway - Multiculti traitor hunting permit", he says in the manifesto he's 100% Christian and he was a member of the Progress Party.

Edit: He was also a freemason.


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 29, 2011)

Ok, that's settled then. I take back my last post.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jul 29, 2011)

He was also super anti-feminist or equal rights for women on top of everything else.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 29, 2011)

They wonder if they can charge him with crimes against humanity.



ramsay_baggins said:


> He was also super anti-feminist or equal rights for women on top of everything else.


"Damn those women demanding unnatural equal rights!" >:C

Then he goes on to mumbo-jumbo something about 'erotic capital', how 60-70% of 'cultural Marxists' are women and how breeding should be 'outsourced' to surrogancy in developing countries or artificial wombs.


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 29, 2011)

Ok, I thought people were exagerating stuff about him because of what he did, but if this is true then he is an evil madman


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 29, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> I don't know if the killer can really be placed anywhere in the  political spectrum when he thinks he's some kind of inheritor to the  Templar Knights and Crusaders. That's not exactly standard political  program fare ...



*Ding!*  Give the man a cigar....



> He was also a freemason.



Given his fascination with Templars, a link to the Shriners is probably to be expected. 



General-jwj said:


> but if this is true then he is an evil madman



There's no mention of the strategy his defense layer will use, but the current prevailing opinion seems to be that he is sane, from a clinical perspective.


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, there's sane and there's _sane_. A guy appearing to be perfectly normal and just keeping his cool and discussing things with the authorities in a calm manner and acting as if killing loads and loads of people barely my age is a valid tool for political education and a necessary evil may look sane (since he's not actually barking mad and talking about the faces in the mirror telling him to keep european ethnicity pure, etc ...) but I still don't think he is sane.

Also where did he get all those guns ?? I think I heard from somwhere that he had a gun licence, but I also heard he had a shotgun and an assault rifle during the shooting. Surely those aren't legal in Normay ?


----------



## Bliss (Jul 29, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> Also where did he get all those guns ?? I think I heard from somwhere that he had a gun licence, but I also heard he had a shotgun and an assault rifle during the shooting. Surely those aren't legal in Normay ?


Bombs he made from fertilisers he ordered from Poland for his farming company which acted as a cover. He had a clean criminal record and a hunting license so he was able to buy Ruger Mini-14, and he already owned a Benelli Nova shotgun. Getting a Glock pistol was harder but since he started attending regularly to a shooting club he was able to get it too eventually.

Id est: he planned this for over 10 years.


----------



## Irreverent (Jul 29, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> Well, there's sane and there's _sane_. A guy appearing to be perfectly normal and just keeping his cool and discussing things with the authorities in a calm manner and acting as if killing loads and loads of people barely my age is a valid tool for political education and a necessary evil may look sane (since he's not actually barking mad and talking about the faces in the mirror telling him to keep european ethnicity pure, etc ...) but I still don't think he is sane.



While I agree, its really up the Court to decide.



> I also heard he had a shotgun and an assault rifle during the shooting. Surely those aren't legal in Normay ?



If reports are to be beleived, Breveik used a semi-automatic Glock pistol and a semi-automatic Ruger Mini-14 rifle, both legal in Norway.  There's some discussion around the ammunition used.  Initial media reports where that he used "dum dum rounds", but this could just be basic media ignorance about commonly available soft-point hunting ammunition.


----------



## General-jwj (Jul 29, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Bombs he made from fertilisers he ordered from Poland for his farming company which acted as a cover. He had a clean criminal record and a hunting license so he was able to buy Ruger Mini-14, and he already owned a Benelli Nova shotgun. Getting a Glock pistol was harder but since he started attending regularly to a shooting club he was able to get it too eventually.
> 
> Id est: he planned this for over 10 years.



Damn. I know people with firearm liences and clean criminal records  (some of them are actual policemen, for chrissakes) and they have to go  through a world of crap just to keep a handgun and maybe a hunting rifle  to use at a shooting range once or twice per month (and maybe go  hunting a couple of times during the right seasons). It just seems so unreal.

And knowing that he had this planned for so long just makes me sick, and a little scared as well.


----------



## Bliss (Jul 29, 2011)

Remember that this was also the deadliest attack by a single gunman in recorded history.



Irreverent said:


> There's some discussion around the ammunition used.  Initial media reports where that he used "dum dum rounds", but this could just be basic media ignorance about commonly available soft-point hunting ammunition.


It is speculated if he used 99% liquid nicotine in the bullets for he said he intended to do so in his manifesto.



Irreverent said:


> Given his fascination with Templars, a link to the Shriners is probably to be expected.


"To his accord a Knights Templar - an 'international Christian military' - order was established in April 2002 in London as 'Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici' by nine men: two Englishmen, a Frenchman, a German, a Dutchman, a Greek, a Russian, a  Norwegian, and a Serb and has between fifteen and eighty 'ordinated knights' besides an unknown number of 'civilian members'." - Wikipedia


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## Irreverent (Jul 29, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> It is speculated if he used 99% liquid nicotine in the bullets for he said he intended to do so in his manifesto.



We'll need the toxicology and autopsy reports to know for sure.  The 55gr .224 cal soft-point bullet is certainly lethal enough in its own right.   I wonder what his dogmatic tie in to using poison is.



> "To his accord a Knights Templar - an 'international Christian military' - order was established in April 2002 in London as 'Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici' by nine men: two Englishmen, a Frenchman, a German, a Dutchman, a Greek, a Russian, a  Norwegian, and a Serb and has between fifteen and eighty 'ordinated knights' besides an unknown number of 'civilian members'." - Wikipedia



Indeed, its the threat of additional cells that seem to have authorities so worried right now.  Doubly so because if he's not a lone gun man, then they have passed completely below the radar.


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## General-jwj (Jul 29, 2011)

The news report I saw the other day did say that he was carrying a talkie-walkie when he was arrested ...


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## CrazyLee (Jul 29, 2011)

Irreverent, the vibe I'm getting from you is that you hate the idea of  anyone that committed any kind of evil act being called right-wing, and  instead insist they're all left-wing, as if the idea that anyone right  wing could commit pure evil is offensive to ALL right-wingers, which no  one is saying.



Irreverent said:


> They were (and are) the  National Socialist party.  Many socialist in your local brand of "right  wingers?"  I expect not.  Unless of course, you're a Norwegian Social  Democrat...in which case, I beg your forgiveness.


As said  before, just because they have socialist in their name doesn't mean they  ARE socialists, or may have had social programs but were still mostly  to the right of center. In fact, they were actually called the "German  Worker's Party". Even Wikipedia lists them as far-right. True, they  covered elements of both left and right wing ideologies, like both  condemning communism (right) and laissez-faire capitalism (left), and  embracing social programs for pure blooded ayrans (left). However, the  party was fiercely nationalistic, xenophobic, racist and bigoted, only  had social programs for aryans, was opposed to democracy and liberal  economics, supported the middle and upper class, and was fiercely  anti-communist, all positions considered on the right.



Irreverent said:


> A lesser evil is to assume that terms like "right wing" and "left wing"  have universal definitions, with no variation at regional  levels.


Okay, so right-wing and left-wing are somewhat  different in Europe as compared to the US. Let me ask you this. Was the  shooter in America? Did he live here? Was he born here? Should we  compare his politics to American politics if he doesn't even live here?  Or should we compare his politics to Norway's political spectrum.

In  any case, he was right-wing, even for Norway. He left political parties  because they weren't extreme enough or right enough for him. He  believed in an extreme nationalistic, xenophobic view of a pure Norway  and Europe free of the threat of Islam and immigrants, where only whites  and Christians were allowed (even if he himself wasn't very religious).  He was against Marxism, liberalism, multiculturalism, the mixing of  races, and political correctness, all right-wing views. His views on  Islamiphobia, Islamic immigration, and multiculturalism were shared by  other people considered far-right in Europe, including Geert Wilders.  Just because the majority of European politics is more left than  American politics doesn't mean he was leftist. He was more right than  just about anyone else in Europe.



Irreverent said:


> And for the record, I'm not butthurt....I'm amused.


You sound a bit smug there. Like "ha ha, I know more than anyone else and it amuses me to see you idiots try to argue against my far superior intellect."


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