# A lingering question about the cub ban



## Ozzy_Olivers_Cat (Dec 3, 2010)

I've noticed no one has asked this question. I attempted a similar thread, but never got a full answer.
I'm currently in the process of drawing more pornographic works and drawings and posting them and I even gone through the process of stating that all characters drawn in porn are over 18, which they are. 

I've been hearing that even if you state your character is over 18, their is a chance you'll be flagged if the character appears young. I'm asking how is this being judged. I understand the obvious circumstances of art work drawn that appear underage. (Diaper wearing toddler or infant looking characters, or basically any character under 4ft or so.)

I'm asking with my style, I tend to draw alot of twinks and fembois. I'm inspired by the general anime style. If I were, to say, draw porn of my fursona (Who is 22), could my submission be banned. 

I'm not asking to about any loopholes. I'm not the type to exploit rules. I just don't want to be forced to completely rethink my art style. I like drawing in a cute attractive anime style as my influences are the works of Gainax and the Disgaea game series. Yes, I try to draw my character as adult looking as my style will allow, but I'm asking if the site will demand me to age my characters any further. 

To put it simple, will my submissions be banned if I myself start drawing porn in the style I normally drawn in. if I draw this character http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4662803 (19) or this character http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4874396 (22) in porn, will it be discussed and banned despite me stating the age.

I'm not a cub artist and don't feel the need to step on any toes. I hope this isn't an annoying question, and I want to make sure, I have nothing to worry about. Thank You.
Note: My art has been called shota, even though I tend to state otherwise. I don't like my art lumped into such scandolous categories. If I'm on the verge of violating rules by drawing porn of these characters, I'll take my leave.


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## 9_6 (Dec 3, 2010)

Everyone is still waiting for a clear answer for that.
There probably is none.
Unless this:



> Images of cub will be removed, and those borderline will be removed at admin discretion.


is the final word.
In which case you might as well toss a coin whenever your characters satisfy a certain set of proportions.
Like yours do.

I have no idea if not drawing it with the intent for it to be "cub" counts whatsoever.
Intent keeps getting mentioned by god warrior moral apostles who despise the idea of someone getting off to that (and the very idea that pornography itself exists too =P) but I doubt it works the other way around.
That would actually be fair and we can't have that.

Just like the creator declaring the age of their creation as a factor that counts pretty much has been ruled out at the very beginning because obviously, that would make this ban a joke to work around yet later, someone posts an official age list of sonic characters with the expectation that _those_ are supposed to mean something. _And gets away with it._


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## Ozzy_Olivers_Cat (Dec 3, 2010)

9_6 said:


> Everyone is still waiting for a clear answer for that.
> There probably is none.
> Unless this:
> 
> ...



I swear it's so nerve racking. I've been told my characters "look young", mostly by those who don't understand the concept of anime, like all adult characters tend to look like children within the medium. I just want to know will I be judged by someone who has an Idea of what anime or manga is, or by those people who thinks any character who looks too feminine, shoulders to short, eyes to big or simply looks partially cute is a child no matter what you say.


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## 9_6 (Dec 3, 2010)

Ozzy_Olivers_Cat said:


> I swear it's so nerve racking. I've been told my characters "look young", mostly by those who don't understand the concept of anime, like all adult characters tend to look like children within the medium. I just want to know will I be judged by someone who has an Idea of what anime or manga is, or by those people who thinks any character who looks too feminine, shoulders to short, eyes to big or simply looks partially cute is a child no matter what you say.


 
I don't know.
The only way to tell is probably to wait and see which branches get trimmed off the hedge.

You said you don't see yourself as a "cub artist" and have no intention to steer into that direction so my best advice would be to just keep doing whatever you want to do and see what happens (and don't forget to backup your pics on your harddrive =P) and if the feces make contact with the rotating air ventilation device, move on to another site.
Being too paranoid now gets you nowhere after all.

Oh and a disclaimer on your profile might help.


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## Ozzy_Olivers_Cat (Dec 3, 2010)

9_6 said:


> I don't know.
> The only way to tell is probably to wait and see which branches get trimmed off the hedge.
> 
> You said you don't see yourself as a "cub artist" and have no intention to steer into that direction so my best advice would be to just keep doing whatever you want to do and see what happens (and don't forget to backup your pics on your harddrive =P) and if the feces make contact with the rotating air ventilation device, move on to another site.
> Being too paranoid now gets you nowhere after all.


 
Yeah. I have a nuetral opinion of cub art by the way only because I htink some artists like myself are kinda limited to particular styles. I also am a strong supporter of freedom of expression too. I respect FA's decision it's thier site, but I'll start putting on the fighting gloves if they start flag just about anything just cause it even appears underage. I don't like my rights being encroached on like that anyways, especially if I feel I had nothing to do with such. But, yeah, I'll keep doing what I do, seperating whats cub and not cub between my ink bunny and FA, but if my non-cub art starts getting banned because it looks a just little cub, I'm leaving.

Besides I tend to draw cub and non-cub art differently. So you can immediately tell the difference if a character of mines is young or not.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Dec 3, 2010)

The AUP clearly states that cutesy/chibi mature art that does _not_ depict minors is still acceptable.


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## 9_6 (Dec 3, 2010)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> The AUP clearly states that cutesy/chibi mature art that does _not_ depict minors is still acceptable.


 
Eh come on, when does a "chibi" become a "cub", when do you depict something "cutesy" and when does it become a "minor"?
I guess everyone has their own idea of that.
It is in the AUP, sure, but what exactly it'll do isn't clear yet. The AUP also states that stylization is a factor yet sonic characters somehow aren't deemed stylized enough so there.

Cub artists can't just say "it's chibi" and be safe. I guess. Everyone would just do that.
Fa needs proof to show to their payment processing company that the ban is actually being _enforced_ after all.

The only thing that is really clear is that if you explicitely _state_ it's underage, it is and will be removed so for example submissions with those "wooah, cub pr0nz!!!"-thumbnails are pretty much sure to go.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 3, 2010)

And 9 days have passed without clear word about this thing to Sonic fans, 12 more days left to remove all the offending stuff.

This is going along smoothly LOL.

Yeah sadly it seems that regardless of your style, it's up to how the Mods interpret your art as.


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## Willow (Dec 3, 2010)

If you state your character or any characters you depict in porn are *OVER 18* it's not being banned. Plus, cutesy or chibi styles aren't going to be banned. 

An admin reviews the submissions in question though before deleting them iirc.


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## Volkodav (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok, if you didn't point out that those two were 18+, I would have thought they were cub. No offense. Very cute art though! It does have a chibi vibe to it.



Willow said:


> If you state your character or any characters you depict in porn are *OVER 18* it's not being banned.


that's a massive loophole for people to upload cub art under.


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## Willow (Dec 3, 2010)

Clayton said:


> that's a massive loophole for people to upload cub art under.


 Yea, it's like, really obvious that the character is underage in most cases. 

Trust me, I would know. :V


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## 9_6 (Dec 3, 2010)

Willow said:


> Yea, it's like, really obvious that the character is underage in most cases.
> 
> Trust me, I would know. :V


 
I feel _so_ compelled to slam you with a boatload of art containing "sexual situations" in which the "underage-ness" is anything but "obvious" so you eat those words, puke them out and eat them again, you have _no_ idea. Whatsoever.

I'm seeing a trend that it's mostly people who can't even draw a circle, let alone dabble in "adult" drawing, who are the loudest mouths supporting this ban.
They simply can't understand what it entails.

I'm drawing parallels to people who want to ban violent videogames while actually never having never played a game before in their life, thus having only actual, real life violence as a point of reference and not seeing that it's something completely different.
It's funny, actually. Or it would be if it actually was a joke.


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## Willow (Dec 3, 2010)

9_6 said:


> I feel _so_ compelled to slam you with a boatload of art containing "sexual situations" in which the "underage-ness" is anything but "obvious" so you eat those words, puke them out and eat them again, you have _no_ idea. Whatsoever.


And I can slam you with a boatload of art containing "sexual situations" in which the "underage-ness" is very obvious. 

I never said it didn't exist, but cub is cub and all you really have to go on is "if it looks underage". Unless otherwise noted. Though of course, saying that this character looks three but is actually 21 is really easy to say, but anyone willing to try and test how close they can get to a cub without it not breaking any rules is way too desperate. 



> I'm seeing a trend that it's mostly people who can't even draw a circle, let alone dabble in "adult" drawing, who are the loudest mouths supporting this ban.
> They simply can't understand what it entails.


Yes, there's a lot of gray area in this. But there's a lot of things people don't realize about some styles. Chibi characters have a disproportionate head to body ratio. Cub characters don't. 



> I'm drawing parallels to people who want to ban violent videogames while actually never having never played a game before in their life, thus having only actual, real life violence as a point of reference and not seeing that it's something completely different.
> It's funny, actually. Or it would be if it actually was a joke.


Except, there's a difference between violent video games and cub porn. 

There are no crimes linked to someone viewing CP.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 3, 2010)

It seems like we'll have to draw certain characters to look like they're 50+ instead of 18+.


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## 9_6 (Dec 3, 2010)

Willow said:


> There are no crimes linked to someone viewing CP.


 
I like how "CP" is the acronym for 2 things.
That is just too convenient for some people, isn't it.

Anyway we had a 200+ page shit thread full of discussion about this ban and its fallacies already.


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## Willow (Dec 3, 2010)

9_6 said:


> I like how "CP" is the acronym for 2 things.


Acronyms can have more than one meaning you know. 



> Anyway we had a 200+ page shit thread full of discussion about this ban and its fallacies already.


 Yea. Let's not have a repeat.


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 3, 2010)

9_6 said:


> I like how "CP" is the acronym for 2 things.
> That is just too convenient for some people, isn't it.
> 
> Anyway we had a 200+ page shit thread full of discussion about this ban and its fallacies already.


 
I have a revolutionary idea. How about people stop bickering about the stuff that isn't going to change? Then we won't have a repeat.

EDIT: That said to OP, the best answer I can give to you is to ignore all of the "Back story you have" for a moment. Just look at the picture itself, or the characters that you draw. Think about how they will look. Then ask yourself is it possible that someone looking at just the picture without any text might mistake the subject as a minor/cub? If the answer is "Yes" than chances are it can be flagged for CP even if you intend the age to be higher.

So try to grow the character up visually so as to remove that possibility. The reason I say this is because regardless of what we think, if a future provider of the service Alertpay used to give us could look at that picture and see it as a minor...than that's a problem. Therefore it's a problem for all of us.


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## RageDragon (Dec 4, 2010)

This is the only time when I'll admit there is a slippery slope in the whole debacle. While I'm firm in my pro-Protect act stance I will admit there are instances in which it has been abused. Namely in Australia where pornstars with A-cups have been banned from the screen because they "appear too young." 

As long as your characters aren't grossly appearing as underaged I don't see how it would be a problem.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> I have a revolutionary idea. How about people stop bickering about the stuff that isn't going to change? Then we won't have a repeat.


I'm not "bickering".
This is kind of a big deal that needs to be talked about.
_Talked_ about, not the trollfest the other thread ended in.
So people know how to deal with it or _what_ they're actually dealing with.

I've made an observation: People cheering over the ban and talking about "morality" are incapable of telling you what a "cub" actually is.
They will give snide remarks, maybe come up with some general bullshit statement like "a child with animal ears and a tail" that is only really good for winning the simple minded masses over by appealing to their emotions but they won't be able to actually come up with anything worthwhile to even identify a "child" in the abstract world of art, let alone something you can't misinterpret.
You know, something that helps actually enforcing this madness.
Because it's impossible.
That's the only conclusion I have and I tried hard to come up with an intriguing definition of "cub" since day 1 if only to make life easier for me, for you, for everyone.

They think to know what was actually banned but really have as much of a clue as everyone else: None.
Go figure.
It's funny if you think about it.



Trpdwarf said:


> EDIT: That said to OP, the best answer I can give to you is to ignore all of the "Back story you have" for a moment. Just look at the picture itself, or the characters that you draw. Think about how they will look. Then ask yourself is it possible that someone looking at just the picture without any text might mistake the subject as a minor/cub? If the answer is "Yes" than chances are it can be flagged for CP even if you intend the age to be higher.
> 
> So try to grow the character up visually so as to remove that possibility. The reason I say this is because regardless of what we think, if a future provider of the service Alertpay used to give us could look at that picture and see it as a minor...than that's a problem. Therefore it's a problem for all of us.


 
Eh... there will ALWAYS be some dip who can and will abuse their "freedom" of pointing at anything and everything and shriek "cub". Always.
I can guarantee that.
The more famous the artist, the more of these dips hellbent on bringing them down are on them.
And now they have a convenient, easy to abuse tool at their hands.

Catering to imaginary (and yet quite real) twats who will whine over the flat chest of your character will do nothing but make you paranoid. I would know.
Look at my gallery. It's full of what one type of people might consider "children" while other people just sees "animals" while another type just sees it for what it is, "shitty art".
As for "growing characters up", how? Making them "big breasted female" and "muscular male" stereotypes? Cause that is where it'll inevitably lead to.
And that's terrible.
Why do we slap non-human features on what was once a "human" in the first place?
Isn't the whole point of this community kinda to break free from stereotypes?
And now we should force everyone to use popular idealizations?

Even mr dragon here brings a valid example of how australia banned flat chested women. Hello?
That's like the loudest voice in favor of the ban admitting there's something fishy about it.
He just said that you'll basically never be safe, no matter what.

So I'd say if you consciously draw something you intend to be and regard as a "child", don't.
There's no point in taunting the admins by experimenting where the line is.
Those poor people will be getting their fair share of shitstorm for enforcing a rule bordering on insanity that everyone hates.
There's no need to go out of your way to give them an even harder time.

However if you don't see yourself as a "cub artist" whatsoever, you are fine. Keep doing what you're doing.
Don't fret.
After all, you never had any intention of breaking this new "rule".
If too many people disagree with you, leave. Don't whine, don't scream, just leave.
It's terrible, it's literally flipping a coin but in the end, there's absolutely nothing you can do.

Don't "adjust" your sense of aesthetics just to cater to the mob.
That is my advice.


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> I'm not "bickering".
> This is kind of a big deal that needs to be talked about.
> _Talked_ about, not the trollfest the other thread ended in.
> So people know how to deal with it or _what_ they're actually dealing with.
> ...



And your point is? Look you either want the site to be here or you don't. If you do that means that we need to at least have something to use as a guide. No matter what guide you come up with to gauge if something fits as Cub/underage or not, there are going to be complaints, possible problems, and unfairness to it. What we have to worry about is how the outside world will look at it. That's how we have to go. If it seems unfair, so be it. It's more fair to go that route than have the entire site come crashing down over someone's pleasure material.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> And your point is?


 
My point is that you (artists) should spend less time worrying.
With kind of the unsettling undertone of telling red-brownish haired women not to worry during a witch hunt but you get the idea...


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## Summercat (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6, since we can't not worry about it (Yay double negatives), why don't you help us out by providing what you think might be a fair definition of what a 'cub' is?


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> My point is that you (artists) should spend less time worrying.
> With kind of the unsettling undertone of telling red-brownish haired women not to worry during a witch hunt but you get the idea...


 
Could you please clarify what you mean to say?


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Summercat said:


> 9_6, since we can't not worry about it (Yay double negatives), why don't you help us out by providing what you think might be a fair definition of what a 'cub' is?


 
My whole point is that this is impossible and that thinking and thinking to come up with an universal definition will just make you go insane and now you want me to think and come up with just that?



Trpdwarf said:


> Could you please clarify what you mean to say?


 
I don't know how do say it any clearer.
"Don't panic"?

This is for artists though, not for admins, mind you.


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> My whole point is that this is impossible and that thinking and thinking to come up with an universal definition will just make you go insane and now you want me to think and come up with just that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Ah I see what you mean. That does make sense. However if people want to know about a guide-line to follow it wouldn't hurt for them to do some thinking and throw out their own suggestions. Better than than to try to argue something that won't change. So I want you, and everyone to think about possible guidelines. When they come to you, come post them here.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Ah I see what you mean. That does make sense. However if people want to know about a guide-line to follow it wouldn't hurt for them to do some thinking and throw out their own suggestions. Better than than to try to argue something that won't change.


 
I agree. I'm waiting for the official guideline you know, many people are, but I can understand how formulating it might be a tad problematic and ultimately, nothing I can help with.


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## Summercat (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> My whole point is that this is impossible and that thinking and thinking to come up with an universal definition will just make you go insane and now you want me to think and come up with just that?


 
I listed some usually tell-tale cues in the other thread, at your specific request. I'll list them again:

Large ears and eyes, thinner limbs for older 'cubs', chubbier (not muscular) for younger, shorter, chest and shoulders the same width as the belly, thinner tail. Those are all signs that the character might be under aged. 

Obviously, there will be no perfect rubric. We *don't* want to ban everything tangentially related to cub porn, but we do want some assistance and advice. We certainly need all the good ideas that can be had, and going "It's impossible to make a universal rule" isn't helpful, when we're trying to come up with cues to warrant further investigation.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Summercat said:


> I listed some usually tell-tale cues in the other thread, at your specific request. I'll list them again:
> 
> Large ears and eyes, thinner limbs for older 'cubs', chubbier (not muscular) for younger, shorter, chest and shoulders the same width as the belly, thinner tail. Those are all signs that the character might be under aged.
> 
> Obviously, there will be no perfect rubric. We *don't* want to ban everything tangentially related to cub porn, but we do want some assistance and advice. We certainly need all the good ideas that can be had, and going "It's impossible to make a universal rule" isn't helpful, when we're trying to come up with cues to warrant further investigation.


 
Look, this is a thread started by an artist asking how he should act so it's about that faction, not the enforcers.
I tried my best to tell him how to act:


Don't be an ass and "test where the line is".
It's blurry, we can all see that, no need to go out of your way to "make an example".
Don't "rebel". You will hit the wrong people. People who probably hate that rule themselves.

If you don't see yourself as a "cub artist", don't worry.
Keep doing what you've always been doing.
Don't let this influence the way you would normally create your art.
Don't apologize for your art.

If a mod decided your art is "cub", don't whine. Too much.
Look at why that specific art needed to go and try to adapt.
If that's out of the question, there's a reason why dragoneer himself linked to inkbunny and sofurry.
Post art with that character/artstyle/whatever that was deemed "cub" there or move there altogether if that is the majority of your art.

1) Don't be an ass 2) Don't panic 3) Deal with it.
This thread is not about coming up with the best definition of what a "cub" is.
That'll just lead to endless bickering with no results again and we don't want that.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 4, 2010)

Darn it I lost a super long reply due to an error FFFF.

Anyway short version of my original reply: Staff should be banning the ones that contain age 12 and under looking participants of adult situations, instead of the 13 to 17 year olds. That way, there should be less rant journals over the Cub Porn Ban and less upsets over opinions of what should a 18 year old looks like.

Store clerks are (supposedly) trained to ask and ID people who look under 40 when they are purchasing alcohol. Staff should consider to do the same, except instead of if the character looks 40, the character looks pre-pubescent/pre-teen.


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## Xenke (Dec 4, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> Staff should be banning the ones that contain age 12 and under looking participants of adult situations, instead of the 13 to 17 year olds. That way, there should be less rant journals over the Cub Porn Ban and less upsets over opinions of what should a 18 year old looks like.



The 13-17 y.o range is included in what prompted the change in policy. You can't just ignore it saying "close enough".



> Store clerks are (supposedly) trained to ask and ID people who look under 40 when they are purchasing alcohol. Staff should consider to do the same, except instead of if the character looks 40, the character looks pre-pubescent/pre-teen.


 
You do realize that your example and idea are dissimilar, right? The under 40 rule is to make sure that they don't sell alcohol to minors that look older than they actually are.

Using you're own practical real-world example, it's only logical that the staff should adopt a policy of scrutinizing any character that looks under 21.

Which, IMHO, seems like a perfectly logical thing to do.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Xenke said:


> The 13-17 y.o range is included in what prompted the change in policy. You can't just ignore it saying "close enough".



I think what SEGAMew meant was focusing on the the blatantly young characters and not the grey area.
That is the general approach right now anyway I guess.
I've seen girls who look older than 17 yet are actually 15 after all. Can't identify drawn "jailbait" by looks alone.


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## Xenke (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> I think what SEGAMew meant was focusing on the the blatantly young characters and not the grey area.
> That is the general approach right now anyway I guess.
> I've seen girls who look older than 17 yet are actually 15 after all. Can't identify drawn "jailbait" by looks alone.


 
I think what he's talking about is a lot of people saying that their stuff is getting flagged for what is claimed to be 18+, but actually looks like something in the 13-17 range.

Although it is important to get the obviously young characters, the characters that fall into that middle range are still troublesome for the site too.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Xenke said:


> I think what he's talking about is a lot of people saying that their stuff is getting flagged for what is claimed to be 18+, but actually looks like something in the 13-17 range.
> 
> Although it is important to get the obviously young characters, the characters that fall into that middle range are still troublesome for the site too.


 
That would be fine and dandy but you can't even clearly differentiate between 17 year old and 18 year old actual persons just by looks.
And they don't have tails, ears that make the head bigger, large animu eyes and other stylizations.
Guessing age is not precise like a scalpel, it's more of a hammer.


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## Xenke (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> That would be fine and dandy but you can't even clearly differentiate between 17 year old and 18 year old actual persons just by looks.
> And they don't have tails, ears that make the head bigger, large animu eyes and other stylizations. It's not a scalpel, it's a hammer.


 
Yes, the distinction between 17 and 18 is tough, but what about a little younger?

16?
15?
13?

These do not look like 18 year olds in most cases.


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Yes, the distinction between 17 and 18 is tough, but what about a little younger?
> 
> 16?
> 15?
> ...


 
I'd not generalize like that.

But this doesn't really help since we can't even determine the age of a fictional character that precisely anyway.


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## Willow (Dec 4, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> Store clerks are (supposedly) trained to ask and ID people who look under 40 when they are purchasing alcohol. Staff should consider to do the same, except instead of if the character looks 40, the character looks pre-pubescent/pre-teen.


 You mean like the little girl from Orphan who was really a 35 year old midget or something like that?



Xenke said:


> The 13-17 y.o range is included in what prompted the change in policy. You can't just ignore it saying "close enough".


Well you could but...



9_6 said:


> I've seen girls who look older than 17 yet are actually 15 after all. Can't identify drawn "jailbait" by looks alone.


 My character is actually 18 I swear!


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## 9_6 (Dec 4, 2010)

Willow said:


> Well you could but...
> 
> 
> My character is actually 18 I swear!



So is mine!
Wanna play?
How about chess? I'll be gray-whiteish and you are black with a distinct tone of gray.


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## Willow (Dec 4, 2010)

9_6 said:


> So is mine!
> Wanna play?
> How about chess? I'll be gray-whiteish and you are black with a distinct tone of gray.


 Teehee. You missed the joke it seems.


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## ThisisGabe (Dec 4, 2010)

"To put it simple, will my submissions be banned if I myself start drawing porn in the style I normally drawn in."

No. If ban-hammer happy peoples go 'round, the man will know what to do.. BANHAMMER THEM!


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## SEGAMew (Dec 4, 2010)

And 46 year old Sonic looks like a 15/16 year old Sonic. We'll have to draw Sonic when he's like 100 for him to be about to pass the cub ban.

13-17 in adult situations may be part of the problem, but people will be faster to react to kids and babies in sex acts than the teenagers. Thus the focus should be on the 0-12 age group primarily, with the 13-17 on the side.


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## Xenke (Dec 4, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> And 46 year old Sonic looks like a 15/16 year old Sonic. We'll have to draw Sonic when he's like 100 for him to be about to pass the cub ban.


 
The problem doesn't lie in the character, the problem lies with the emulated art style.

I feel like if Sonic character is drawn properly proportioned for an older age, Sonic-style art passes the 18+ test.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't think my art quite qualifies for that, my art is rather leaning on the cute side. Plus there's the fact that Shadow will *never* physically age and looks as old as Sonic does right now. A physically aging immortal doesn't happen quite often.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> The problem doesn't lie in the character, the problem lies with the emulated art style.



What SEGAMew meant is more like SEGA is drawing/modeling/treating their characters like they are "unable to age" (you don't see the difference between 8 year olds and 18 year olds (anymore)).* FANARTS* are just *REPRESENTATIONS*. You will find rather realistic drawn Final Fantasy characters than one in Sonic/toon style because Square(Soft)Enix treats their characters human/realistic/whatever. SEGA shows their characters toony. And to make a toon look adult is really difficult! Look at Mickey Mouse, the Animaniacs (warner brothers and warner sister) and the Loony Tunes. No matter their age they'll always look cartoony...


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

And it begins again.



sonishi said:


> What SEGAMew meant is more like SEGA is drawing/modeling/treating their characters like they are "unable to age" (you don't see the difference between 8 year olds and 18 year olds (anymore)).* FANARTS* are just *REPRESENTATIONS*. You will find rather realistic drawn Final Fantasy characters than one in Sonic/toon style because Square(Soft)Enix treats their characters human/realistic/whatever. SEGA shows their characters toony. And to make a toon look adult is really difficult! Look at Mickey Mouse, the Animaniacs (warner brothers and warner sister) and the Loony Tunes. No matter their age they'll always look cartoony...



First of all, I have to nitpick. The Animaniacs are obviously children, not adult characters.

Second, I'm going to have to disagree. Bugs Bunny may be draw in a toony style, but he obviously looks and plays the part of an adult. I will give you Mickey Mouse though.

The fact that Sega has adopted this style of ageless art does not nullify the fact that most of the characters look under 18 y.o. Emulating this style brings over that quality of youngness and tends to be sucked in to the range of the art the FA is planning on doing away with.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

I dunno, most of the main characters in Spongebob all seem to be around the age of 20 and over with the exception of like, one or two. 

As for Squeenix, eh. A lot of them are around 17. I can name a whole bunch who are well over that, but as far as main characters go, they're usually 17 or something. 
Though I'm pretty sure Sora was like, 13 in KH1 and 15 in KH2 but he still looks pretty young. Roxas is around 13 iirc. 

I could go on and on about the ages of certain game characters, but that would take me a while.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> this style brings over that quality of youngness and tends to be sucked  in to the range of the art the FA is planning on doing away with



But that's excactly what I'm talking about. Even though the Animaniacs are meant to be young children - how would you draw them adult? Making their bodies longer? Their ears longer? Her breasts bigger? It's really difficult to show the difference between an adult toon and a child toon because it's often drawn "cute". And cute mostly means childish in some minds. 

As for Bugs Bunny: *to me* (personal opinion) he's adult because of his deep voice! A few years ago I was watching Bugs Bunny with a different voice actor (in my country) which was a woman. He had the SAME design but just of the different (higher) voice he "looked/act" more childish to me. And yes, Mickey Mouse always will look rather childish than adult. XD
... strange then that there is no complainging about cub-styled drawings about him but Sonic! oO


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## redfoxnudetoons (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> First of all, I have to nitpick. The Animaniacs are obviously children, not adult characters.


 
Now I have to nitpick a bit.

In the opening to the some episodes of the series, a faux newsreel, Newsreel of the Stars, is played with an abridged history of the Yakko, Wakko, and Dot Warner; in 1929, they were created by the Termite Terrace Animation Department and starred in several cartoons until their zaniness caused a falling out with the studio.

1929 and the show aired in the 90's. They're older than you are. They are over the age of 18 according to cannon.

Lol.

Which, of course is the problem of following cannon ages to imaginary characters.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> 1929 and the show aired in the 90's. They're older than you are. They are over the age of 18 according to cannon.



Seeing it like this way it makes sense very much that they're adults! : )
But still they look like children which represents the main problem again...


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## 9_6 (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> ... strange then that there is no complainging about cub-styled drawings about him but Sonic! oO


 
Yeah, don't fan that fire or it'll spread there too.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Now I have to nitpick a bit.
> 
> In the opening to the some episodes of the series, a faux newsreel, Newsreel of the Stars, is played with an abridged history of the Yakko, Wakko, and Dot Warner; in 1929, they were created by the Termite Terrace Animation Department and starred in several cartoons until their zaniness caused a falling out with the studio.
> 
> ...


 
For once I wasn't using the canon age argument. This time I was going by apparent age (which I think is how the moderating staff should do it).

But yea, I do remember that. I was never really a fan of the Animaniacs, so I haven't watched it in a while.



9_6 said:


> Yeah, don't fan that fire or it'll spread there too.



You're the one with the bellows, sir.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> Yeah, don't fan that fire or it'll spread there too.



Sorry! This was not my intention or opinion at all. I think everybody is free in drawing. I just start to believe there is just more behind that Sonic and Pokemon cub-thing... Think I'm crazy but there are way "more dangerous" young looking toons than Sonic or Pokemon... but they seem to be ignored...

Anyways, I don't wanna make this an upcomming topic!


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## redfoxnudetoons (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> For once I wasn't using the canon age argument. This time I was going by apparent age (which I think is how the moderating staff should do it).


 
I know, But it was a perfect example of how stupid it is to use "cannon" ages of cartoon characters, one way or the other.

It's really the whole problem of the new ban on cubs. There is WAY more to the cub ban then everyone thinks. It's too far reaching, and people who actually SUPPORT the cub ban will find themselves in violation of the cub ban.

It's all Nuckin' Futs if you ask me.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> I know, But it was a perfect example of how stupid it is to use "cannon" ages of cartoon characters, one way or the other.
> 
> It's really the whole problem of the new ban on cubs. There is WAY more to the cub ban then everyone thinks. It's too far reaching, and people who actually SUPPORT the cub ban will find themselves in violation of the cub ban.
> 
> It's all Nuckin' Futs if you ask me.


 
It is pretty nuts, but seeing as I've only draw mature material, like... twice(?) I think I'm fine.

Hence why I can carry on being a big fat meanie head.


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## Iudicium_86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> It is pretty nuts, but seeing as I've only draw mature material, like... twice(?) I think I'm fine.
> 
> Hence why I can carry on being a big fat meanie head.


 
Apathy. A noble trait indeed. Just as long as nothing affects you right?


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> There is WAY more to the cub ban then everyone thinks



I think the same way... Actually I believe they fear that people who (SEEMS TO) draw "cub" in any relation could really be interested in young underaged (pre)teens. It's like that big disscussion "do shooter/killer games will make my kid a killer too?" This is a question that has NO correct answer because it depends on the induvidual! There are plenty of people who can play any shooter game and won't ever commit murder and there are people who can/will/tend to it - but honestly those people's REAL LIFE has a V E R Y BIG meaning in this topic! Same goes with ANY kind of porn...

But I also hope you won't get me wrong! I don't say anybody will become phedofile when looking at (actually non-cub) Sonic/toon porn. x)


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Iudicium_86 said:


> Apathy. A noble trait indeed. Just as long as nothing affects you right?



Why does cub art "affect" you so deeply?


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

Iudicium_86 said:


> Apathy. A noble trait indeed. Just as long as nothing affects you right?


 
I'd be more concerned if pro-cub artists would stop denying everything about everything.

I'm not talking about you though.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Well they have studies that show a correlation between sexual agression and objectification  in porn and men (the usual test subjects in most of the studies) acting more violently towards women (the usual stimuli used in the porn in the studies) and a correlation towards objectifying women in real life. The correlation between porn and how a person acts sexually is there. Cub porn to that extent could increase the veiwing of children as sexual objects. Why would you defend that?


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Well they have studies that show a correlation between sexual agression and objectification  in porn and men (the usual test subjects in most of the studies) acting more violently towards women (the usual stimuli used in the porn in the studies) and a correlation towards objectifying women in real life. The correlation between porn and how a person acts sexually is there. Cub porn to that extent could increase the veiwing of children as sexual objects. Why would you defend that?


 Becauuuussse, you're not really going out and doing it. So, it can't be anything bad. Right?


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> if pro-cub artists would stop denying everything about everything



Even though they would admit they draw cub-porn. What would change then? Nothing... Unfortunately some people don't get that *drawing something is different from doing/wanting something*.
Instead every horror-game artist (f.e.) can be called "a mental case"! Just because he draws horrifying things doesn't mean he actually wants to have/feel/suffer it in real life - it's a fantasy he is *just interested in *but he would never harm in real life.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> Becauuuussse, you're not really going out and doing it. So, it can't be anything bad. Right?


 
You totally called it.




sonishi said:


> Even though they would admit they draw cub-porn. What would change then? Nothing... Unfortunately some people don't get that *drawing something is different from doing/wanting something*.


 
Actually as I said before there is a link between pornographic depictions and in real life sexual actions. This is mostly documented by Women's Studies Groups, but the research is still aplicable to children.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Even though they would admit they draw cub-porn. What would change then? Nothing... Unfortunately some people don't get that *drawing something is different from doing/wanting something*.
> Instead every horror-game artist (f.e.) can be called "a mental case"! Just because he draws horrifying things doesn't mean he actually wants to have/feel/suffer it in real life - it's a fantasy he is *just interested in *but he would never harm in real life.


 
It would change the fact that they claim to not be drawing children. :\


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## Iudicium_86 (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Why does cub art "affect" you so deeply?


 
It doesn't. I have already explained my larger stance on the topic in previous posting. I just merely apply my life laws equally. Maybe I'll just explain again.

I don't believe in censorship no matter content. Even if I don't like something, I'll defend another person's right to like it. I'm gay, but won't ever ask the Pope to stop saying things just because it's against me. I like my violence in video games, and if someone poses a threat to it, I would _hope_ others come to my defense as well. 

I only believe in two core roots of censorship. *Agenda, and Lack of Responsibility*.
People with an Agenda will go about censoring for gain. For example, government/party propaganda.
People too stupid to understand they should just not look at something if they don't like it or don't want responsibility where they should have it. Example, Parent's don't want the responsibility to take care of their kid's exposure and monitor them properly, so soccer moms will go along with legislation that reduces violent games or at least availability as if it were a controlled substance (Alcohol, Tobacco, Pharmaceutical Drugs, etc) 

I defend others because I hope others will defend me if a time ever came. Even if not, least I can live with myself knowing I'm a fair human being.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> You totally called it.


 It comes up at least once a thread <3



Xenke said:


> It would change the fact that they claim to not be drawing children. :\


 Well duh, because they're not real helloooo.


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## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Trying to put fictional, animal like characters into two different schemes like "cub" and "not cub" is not possible. It sure is possible for drawn human characters, because a human body can be measuerd at certain points (at least some people say so).

I cannot think of measuring Sonic or another hedgehog character from SEGA in any part of their bodies. There is no parallel between a SEGA hedgehog and a human body, except that both of them have a head, a torso, two arms and two legs. That might sound much, but it is ridiculous (in my humble opinion) to say that a SEGA hedgehog has anything in common with a human being.

Lets suppose I create my own character now. Lets suppose its a cute looking penguin. Now I draw it as cubbish as I can draw it. Would it be cub then? Would anybody find the right measures to declare it as cub? Certainly not. Because its a penguin and I haven't given any information about the age of that penguin. So please, go on and bite out your teeth on this penguin.

Now I draw some anthro hedgehog. And I ask the same question as above.
The answer would be something really absurd.

What I see here is too much traa-raa about cub. In reality this crazy discussion only happens to distract everyone from a cruel reality: There are rapists, murderers, loonatics and owners of oil companies out there. And we argue about cub.

20.000 people may have already said what I said here, so you can be bored now, but these are my two cents about the whole, crazy situation, just to make a sign.

Please people, wake up and get a life â€“  my post isn't intended for the admins and onwers of FA but for all people who try to categorize a character as cub or not-cub by its age. Doing so is a waste of time.

As long as we don't pay for using FA the owners can do anything they want. And they do not need to justify their doings. But I really get angry when some people come here and talk sh*t about cub and non-cub.

I would pay a reasonable amount of money if there was a page where true furry artists could meet true art appreciators (and the other way around). This would also be a page where dumb arguments about cub would be prohibited, especially for characters which have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON WITH A HUMAN, UNDERAGE CHARACTER.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> Well they have studies that show a correlation between sexual  agression and objectification  in porn and men (the usual test subjects  in most of the studies) acting more violently towards women (the usual  stimuli used in the porn in the studies) and a correlation towards  objectifying women in real life. The correlation between porn and how a  person acts sexually is there. Cub porn to that extent could increase  the veiwing of children as sexual objects. Why would you defend that?



some great artists I know on FA (and DA) are drawing rape/very violent sex against one's will... but I can say they would never rape a person in real life. 
This is a topic to talk very carefully about. When somebody *tend* to something doesn't mean he actually wants it that way. That's why we have beating games, sports, boxing and such "aggressive" activities: to let out our anger/aggressions in a violent form - but we don't really wanna harm/kill anyone. 
Same goes with SOME extreme fetishes like rape: just because in our fantasies it appears sexy/hot doesn't mean we would be turned on when we'd see this in real life!


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## 9_6 (Dec 5, 2010)

Okay can we stop that "moral" crap now and stay on topic if it really needs to be kept afloat?
That whole "morality" bullshit is a slippery slope that'll only lead to shitposts.
Deovacuus and Xenke are well aware of that and not interested in an actual discussion, so please.

The topic was what can _artists_ do who are not sure whatsoever if what they draw is "cub" or not (and don't identify themselves as a "cub artist").
That question was asked by the OP. If you have to post here, answer it.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Please people, wake up and get a life â€“  my post isn't intended for the admins and onwers of FA but for all people who try to categorize a character as cub or not-cub by its age. Doing so is a waste of time.


Cub is the anthro equivalent of shota, loli, and loli-shota. So under age 18 counts as cub TECHNICALLY. Not that anyone EVER draws 16 year olds having sex. derp



> As long as we don't pay for using FA the owners can do anything they want. And they do not need to justify their doings. But I really get angry when some people come here and talk sh*t about cub and non-cub.


Not that Dragoneer had much of a choice here. herp. 



> I would pay a reasonable amount of money if there was a page where true furry artists could meet true art appreciators (and the other way around). This would also be a page where dumb arguments about cub would be prohibited, especially for characters which have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON WITH A HUMAN, UNDERAGE CHARACTER.


How many people would be willing to pay x amount of money just so that way one group of people can have their porn? Anyone? A few? Okay. Go elsewhere. 
It's not the end of the world and it's not like cub ART is being banned outright. 

Also, cub=shota and stuff.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

*at jammy:* some great points in there! Really! Also I agree with the fact it's actually a waste of time because there are far more important topics in our real world and I really doubt we can convince anybody out there who is not on our side from the beginning (like the ones who wanna ban "wanna-be-cub"). 
BUT we (the artists) wanna make a sign. We don't want something to be taken away just because some people think it's wrong and we just have to bow at their opinion. I'm sorry! I wanna fight for the things I like and I like drawing Sonic in his original style and I'm sick of searching through websites over websites to (maybe) finally find one not getting "closed/banned/strict" at some points/topics just because some people think (all of a sudden) "it's wrong".

But like I said: wow! For a first entry a very good entry!


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

9_6 said:


> Okay can we stop that "moral" crap now and stay on topic if it really needs to be kept afloat?
> That whole "morality" bullshit is a slippery slope that'll only lead to shitposts.
> Deovacuus and Xenke are well aware of that and not interested in an actual discussion, so please.



It's nice to see that instead even bothering to try and respond to us you label us as trolls and plug your ears.

The whole morality issue, while not relevant to the site, is relevant to the artist themselves.



> The topic was what can _artists_ do who are not sure whatsoever if what they draw is "cub" or not (and don't identify themselves as a "cub artist").
> That question was asked by the OP. If you have to post here, answer it.


 
What great advice! You should take it.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> some great artists I know on FA (and DA) are drawing rape/very violent sex against one's will... but I can say they would never rape a person in real life.


There is still a distinct correlation though. And you just dimissed it and decided to implement a personal anecdote as a means of evidence to your argument. Anecdotes though are fawed. There is a proven correlation between what a person views in porn and how they act sexually. You may not like it but it is a fact. 



9_6 said:


> Okay can we stop that "moral" crap now and stay on topic if it really needs to be kept afloat?
> That whole "morality" bullshit is a slippery slope that'll only lead to shitposts.
> Deovacuus and Xenke are well aware of that and not interested in an actual discussion, so please.



Stop trying to dismiss legitimate arguements. If you can't counter it then shut up, don't say that we aren't interested and therefore our points are null. So please.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> what can _artists_ do who are not sure whatsoever if what they draw is "cub" or not (and don't identify themselves as a "cub artist"



The best thing is not to change anything! Artists should just keep their style and "fetishes". That would make a big sign. Even though things will get deleted over and over again but "bowing to their wishes" won't change anything to the artist's good. I know it sounds a little crazy or stupid but what else would work?

Of course there always is the possibilty to "flee" to other websites but that also doesn't work forever ...


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## Alstor (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Lets suppose I create my own character now. Lets suppose its a cute looking penguin. Now I draw it as cubbish as I can draw it. Would it be cub then? Would anybody find the right measures to declare it as cub? Certainly not. Because its a penguin and I haven't given any information about the age of that penguin. So please, go on and bite out your teeth on this penguin.
> 
> Now I draw some anthro hedgehog. And I ask the same question as above.
> The answer would be something really absurd.


The new cub policy is based on appearance. If the mod thinks it looks like a child, no matter what age it might be, it will be taken off.



> What I see here is too much traa-raa about cub. In reality this crazy discussion only happens to distract everyone from a cruel reality: There are rapists, murderers, loonatics and owners of oil companies out there. And we argue about cub.


True, but companies like AlertPay are only worried about cub/child porn now. True, it can be a thing to worry about, but Neer and co. have more important things to worry about other than what may or may not be acceptable in the future.



> Please people, wake up and get a life â€“  my post isn't intended for the admins and onwers of FA but for all people who try to categorize a character as cub or not-cub by its age. Doing so is a waste of time.


I said earlier that it's mainly appearance. But if the age says the character is under 18 and in adult situations, then that makes the mod's job easier.



> I would pay a reasonable amount of money if there was a page where true furry artists could meet true art appreciators (and the other way around). This would also be a page where dumb arguments about cub would be prohibited, especially for characters which have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON WITH A HUMAN, UNDERAGE CHARACTER.


So you want a website that's essentially a giant hugbox without a place to hold opinions on art? Good luck with that in this time.


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## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Well they have studies that show a correlation between sexual agression and objectification  in porn and men (the usual test subjects in most of the studies) acting more violently towards women (the usual stimuli used in the porn in the studies) and a correlation towards objectifying women in real life. The correlation between porn and how a person acts sexually is there. Cub porn to that extent could increase the veiwing of children as sexual objects. Why would you defend that?


 
Now I come up with a brand new study: 98.95% of every real-life rapist has never before heard of furry cub art or "consumed" it and nevertheless commited the rape.


By the way, Deovacuus, I heard that you have an affinity for hitting people in the face 'til they exhale their last breath. So I suppose I need to criminalize you as a potential danger to society. I thought your forum signature was a good base to judge you like this.


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> There is a proven correlation between what a person views in porn and how they act sexually.



I'm aware of that. But that doesn't mean that this fact stays negative. When you have a fetish and you ask your partner to share it with you (even something like rape and violence can be shared) - nobody will be  harmed because both parties have to agree on something* shared*. When you have a fetish (for example: rape) and you go out and rape a stranger/person then there will be somebody harmed. It's always how you see it.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Now I come up with a brand new study: 98.95% of every real-life rapist has never before heard of furry cub art or "consumed" it and nevertheless commited the rape.
> 
> 
> By the way, Deovacuus, I heard that you have an affinity for hitting people in the face 'til they exhale their last breath. So I suppose I need to criminalize you as a potential danger to society. I thought your forum signature was a good base to judge you like this.


 
This is the worst post I've seen in a while, and that's saying something.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Now I come up with a brand new study: 98.95% of every real-life rapist has never before heard of furry cub art or "consumed" it and nevertheless commited the rape.


I really like how you passed up my reply to some of your points. Good work!
As for this particular thing, I don't think that's what she was getting at. But I will say, there are cases of people committing RL murders after playing video games. Halo 2 and FFVII came to mind. But, where exactly do you find a statistic like that. Kinda obscure. 



> By the way, Deovacuus, I heard that you have an affinity for hitting people in the face 'til they exhale their last breath. So I suppose I need to criminalize you as a potential danger to society. I thought your forum signature was a good base to judge you like this.


  I lol'd


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Now I come up with a brand new study: 98.95% of every real-life rapist has never before heard of furry cub art or "consumed" it and nevertheless commited the rape.


Learn some basic logic please. I never said that furry porn specifically had a correlation with sexual aggression and objectification, only that porn in general does. Also, people stop blabbering anecdotes.



jammy said:


> By the way, Deovacuus, I heard that you have an affinity for hitting people in the face 'til they exhale their last breath. So I suppose I need to criminalize you as a potential danger to society.


Oddly I am tempted to sig this.


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## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> I really like how you passed up my reply to some of your points. Good work!
> As for this particular thing, I don't think that's what she was getting at. But I will say, there are cases of people committing RL murders after playing video games. Halo 2 and FFVII came to mind. But, where exactly do you find a statistic like that. Kinda obscure.
> I lol'd



Obscure like the whole discussion. Just dropped in to make it even more obscure.

Commiting murder after playing Halo ii? icameplz


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Obscure like the whole discussion. Just dropped in to make it even more obscure.
> 
> Commiting murder after playing Halo ii? icameplz


 
C'mon, you're not even trying anymore.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Commiting murder after playing Halo ii? icameplz


 It wasn't necessarily after playing Halo 2, but the kid's dad was a preacher and wouldn't let him play the game. So the kid found his dad's gun and shot both his dad and mother. 

True story bro. 

So, about my previous post..you should read it. Or did I blow a hole in your logic?


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## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Learn some basic logic please. I never said that furry porn specifically had a correlation with sexual aggression and objectification, only that porn in general does.



Speaking of basic logic? Saying that porn in general has a correlation with sexual aggression and objectification implies that furry porn does too. icametwiceplz


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> I thought your forum signature was a good base to judge you like this



DANG! There goes prejudice! XD



> Now I come up with a brand new study: 98.95% of every real-life rapist  has never before heard of furry cub art or "consumed" it and  nevertheless commited the rape.



Nice try. But when you start compairing/acting like this things/conflicts will even get worse... This is just childish provoking now. No offense but it helps nobody like this...


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> and FFVII came to mind



FF??? XD
You serious now??? XD


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> FF??? XD
> You serious now??? XD


Yes


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## 9_6 (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> It wasn't necessarily after playing Halo 2, but the kid's dad was a preacher and wouldn't let him play the game. So the kid found his dad's gun and shot both his dad and mother.
> 
> True story bro.
> 
> So, about my previous post..you should read it. Or did I blow a hole in your logic?


 
That has more to do with game addiction and temper than with actually becoming violent just because of playing a game.
There are probably many more factors in this than the game.

What it has nothing to do with is this topic.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> Yes


 
This is why we can't have nice things.

Also, stupid people should not breed. This is why. right here. Seriously. WTF.

=v.v=


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> Yes


 
It's people like this that makes Jack Thompson horny for anti-violent games rabblerousing.
I do hope those two people are not the FF House couple...;/...that would be beyond fucked up.

EDIT: Wait, Fictokin crazies turn into real life killers. Wouldn't that make an interesting newscast...


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## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> Yes



This is one in a billion!! Seriosly!! You ever played Final Fantasy?? The most violent thing there are the DISSAPEARING NOT-BLEEDING NOT EVEN REAL ATTACKING monsters AND the fact if your character dies (not to mention: *without* bleeding/suffering) he just falls to the ground - and stands up again after getting a phoenix feather! XD

I've also heard about that case with the murder and hostage and such ... but please come on - it's not the daily habit!


----------



## Alstor (Dec 5, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> This is why we can't have nice things.
> 
> Also, stupid people should not breed. This is why. right here. Seriously. WTF.
> 
> =v.v=


 Look on the bright side. Two heterozygous idiots have a 25% chance of producing a non-idiotic child. Hooray for Punnett squares.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> Two heterozygous idiots have a 25% chance of producing a non-idiotic child.



I lol'd! XD


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> This is one in a billion!! Seriosly!! The most violent thing there are the DISSAPEARING NOT-BLEEDING NOT EVEN REAL ATTACKING monsters AND the fact if your character dies (not to mention: *without* bleeding/suffering) he just falls to the ground - and stands up again after getting a phoenix feather! XD
> 
> I've also heard about that case with the murder and hostage and such ... but please come on - it's not the daily habit!


 It happened though didn't it? Which was what I was trying to prove. Nice to know you disregarded that little part though. 



> You ever played Final Fantasy??


Yes.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> It happened though didn't it? Which was what I was trying to prove. Nice to know you disregarded that little part though.



Some kids could stab their parents after seeing teletubbies! A man stabs his boss for not giving him good earnings for his work. A pupil kills a friend because of envy ... everything. already. happened. and. will. happen. over. and. over. again... It's the circle of life and happenings! Nobody can control anything!


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Some kids could stab their parents after seeing teletubbies! A man stabs his boss for not giving him good earnings for his work. A pupil kills a friend because of envy ... everything. already. happened. and. will. happen. over. and. over. again... It's the circle of life and happenings! Nobody can control anything!


 That wasn't even the...what?

You know what, I quit.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> That wasn't even the...what?
> You know what, I quit.



You mean with that topic? Yeah, actually we are both childish now. ^^:
It's just that everyday could happen a thing like this and you can't do anything against it but this maybe is 1% ...

but you're right let's quit that ...


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

I like how we're attempting to apply real life happens into the fictional world of cartoons.

You know that character that got mauled is going to survive and appear in the next episode.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> I like how we're attempting to apply real life happens into the fictional world of cartoons.
> 
> You know that character that got mauled is going to survive and appear in the next episode.


 
What are you even talking about?


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> Speaking of basic logic? Saying that porn in general has a correlation with sexual aggression and objectification implies that furry porn does too. icametwiceplz


This would be true if there weren't so many studies done that have evidence that porn has a correlation with sexual aggression and objectification. And since furry pirn is still porn that still proves to be true. And you're an idiot. Yes I know that's ad hominem but it needed to be said.


----------



## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Its plain and simple:
Classifying a hedgehog, looney tune, digimon or pokemon as cub is dumb.
Being Â«forcedÂ» to do so, too.
Arguing about it (as we do) is even dumber.

The whole thing is a repetition of the daily blabla in the news:
"We can't stop the war"
"We can't stop nuclear power plants and start to invest in green energy"
"We can't stop eating meat"
"We can't prevent the economic crisis"

I don't want to hear this sh*t anymore. If FA would, they could. But they made their decision.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

That somehow the discussion about how can one draw their characters so that it doesn't break the AUP got turned into real life studies about video games and peoples' actions as a result.


----------



## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> This would be true if there weren't so many studies done that have evidence that porn has a correlation with sexual aggression and objectification. And since furry pirn is still porn that still proves to be true. And you're an idiot. Yes I know that's ad hominem but it needed to be said.


 
To quote Xenke: "What are you even talking about?"


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> I don't want to hear this sh*t anymore. If FA would, they could. But they made their decision.


 
I think the point is that no, they can't.



SEGAMew said:


> That somehow the discussion about how can one draw their characters so that it doesn't break the AUP got turned into real life studies about video games and peoples' actions as a result.


 
Oh, yea, that happens, I just tend to ignore it.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> That somehow the discussion about how can one draw their characters so  that it doesn't break the AUP got turned into real life studies about  video games and peoples' actions as a result.



Well I guess this is the only thing we actually can do. xP
when sticking to "real life" facts there is not much to deny about... for example if we choose our characters have the real-life age (from the day they were developed/drawn) then they ALL are mature! XD


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

jammy said:


> I don't want to hear this sh*t anymore. If FA would, they could. But they made their decision.


 If this were truly Dragoneer's decision, cub porn wouldn't have been banned.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> I think the point is that no, they can't



Well, since they are a non-profit site they could easily use another provider to host their website so the canadian rules (and our problems about "cub-look-a-like will be banned") would be like "vanished" but they don't do it it seems. : (


----------



## jammy (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> I think the point is that no, they can't.


But rule34 can?


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Well, since they are a non-profit site they could easily use another provider to host their website so the canadian rules (and our problems about "cub-look-a-like will be banned") would be like "vanished" but they don't do it it seems. : (


 Non-profit just means the site doesn't _require_ you to pay money to use it. FA still needs money to run though, and takes donations instead.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Well, since they are a non-profit site they could easily use another provider to host their website so the canadian rules (and our problems about "cub-look-a-like will be banned") would be like "vanished" but they don't do it it seems. : (


 
The provider didn't drop them, AlertPay did, which I think is what they used to collect donations to keep the site running.

But then again, I don't ever remember reading exactly what AlertPay's role was.



jammy said:


> But rule34 can?



Different site, different workings.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> The provider didn't drop them, AlertPay did, which I think is what they used to collect donations to keep the site running.
> 
> But then again, I don't ever remember reading exactly what AlertPay's role was.
> 
> Different site, different workings.


 
I was under the impression that AlertPay is Canada's equivilant to Paypal.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> I was under the impression that AlertPay is Canada's equivilant to Paypal.


 
Indeed, something like that.

I looked it up and it seems that what I said is the case.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> The provider didn't drop them, AlertPay did, which I think is what they used to collect donations to keep the site running.



Why don't they use another way of donations then? I mean, most global organisations have like "their own way" of getting their money...
Isn't there any other alternative to paypal?


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Why don't they use another way of donations then? I mean, most global organisations have like "their own way" of getting their money...
> Isn't there any other alternative to paypal?


 
Sure, there are lots, but pretty much all of them won't sign on with FA if there is cub porn.


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Why don't they use another way of donations then? I mean, most global organisations have like "their own way" of getting their money...
> Isn't there any other alternative to paypal?


 We already discussed this in the last thread. 

As long as CP was on the site, there was a pretty good chance sites wouldn't do business with FA.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

I suggest Dragoneer opens another bank account, collect donations a different way (bank money transfer, Money orders, checks, etc, eBay sales, etc) and store it in that. And I mean an actual bank account, not pseudo ones on Paypal.


----------



## redfoxnudetoons (Dec 5, 2010)

Alstor said:


> Look on the bright side. Two heterozygous idiots have a 25% chance of producing a non-idiotic child. Hooray for Punnett squares.


 
OMFG.... You are the only person to have ever brought that up.... 

I never thought someone else would think of that. (I've wondering if anyone would _ever_ try to use the Punnett squares retort!)




sonishi said:


> Some kids could stab their parents after seeing teletubbies! A man stabs his boss for not giving him good earnings for his work. A pupil kills a friend because of envy ... everything. already. happened. and. will. happen. over. and. over. again... It's the circle of life and happenings! Nobody can control anything!


 
Humanity is doomed.....




jammy said:


> Its plain and simple:
> Classifying a hedgehog, looney tune, digimon or pokemon as cub is dumb.


 
I agree with you there. It _is_ stupid. Stupid that FA is banning this (except for digimon, as 'Neer would _NEVER_ ban that, as his murrsona is a digimon....) is incredibly stupid. And it will cause quite a few people who are happy with the cub ban to be in violation of said ban.

Stupid.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> We already discussed this in the last thread.
> As long as CP was on the site, there was a pretty good chance sites wouldn't do business with FA.



Oh, I see ... oh, well my head aches! XD


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> I suggest Dragoneer opens another bank account, collect donations a different way (bank money transfer, Money orders, checks, etc, eBay sales, etc) and store it in that. And I mean an actual bank account, not pseudo ones on Paypal.


 
I don't think banks would do business with a site with cub porn either.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> I don't think banks would do business with a site with cub porn either.


 
Cub porn doesn't equate to child porn in the USA, as they're not legally defined as human.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

> I don't think banks would do business with a site with cub porn either



Well, we don't have to say for what we *really *use it. : )
Maybe also hide the fact it's for furaffinity?


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

If they really want to ask, just say it's a Special Interest Social Art site.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> Cub porn doesn't equate to child porn in the USA, as they're not legally defined as human.


 
Company policy â‰  local/state/federal laws.



sonishi said:


> Well, we don't have to say for what we *really *use it. : )
> Maybe also hide the fact it's for furaffinity?


 
Fraud.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> If they really want to ask, just say it's a Special Interest Social Art site.



Exactly! That way we don't really lie AND we save furaffinity


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Exactly! That way we don't really lie AND we save furaffinity


 
Banks will ask further. Guarantee it.


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> Cub porn doesn't equate to child porn in the USA, as they're not legally defined as human.


I'm a broken record:

Cub is the ANTHRO equivalent of shota, loli, and loli-shota. 

They're not human, by they're made to resemble kids, ja?

I don't think a lot of businesses care about technicalities.


----------



## sonishi (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Fraud.


 
I don't think so. 
Fraud it would be when you say you wanna donate it and ran away with all the money just because you think (all of a sudden) "there is something wrong" ... why does that sound familiar? XD


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

sonishi said:


> I don't think so.
> Fraud it would be when you say you wanna donate it and ran away with all the money just because you think (all of a sudden) "there is something wrong" ... why does that sound familiar? XD


 
Perhaps it was the wrong word, but I'm pretty sure there is still a legal issue with lying to a bank in order to do business with them.


----------



## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Fraud.


 
I suggest you look into what is called a 'Fictitious Business Name Statement' before you go saying such a thing. This little document allows a single controlling person to do business as any entity they please. This is how individuals in the USA open bank accounts with a name OTHER than their real name.


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Look you whiny bitches. FA is owned by Dragoneer who can do whatever the hell he wants with it. Spamming crap threads and pestering mods over your goatse-like hurt butts is pointless. You are sickfucks *deal with it*. *YEEAAAAAH.*


----------



## Icky (Dec 5, 2010)

Ozzy_Olivers_Cat said:


> I've noticed no one has asked this question. I attempted a similar thread, but never got a full answer.
> I'm currently in the process of drawing more pornographic works and drawings and posting them and I even gone through the process of stating that all characters drawn in porn are over 18, which they are.
> 
> I've been hearing that even if you state your character is over 18, their is a chance you'll be flagged if the character appears young. I'm asking how is this being judged. I understand the obvious circumstances of art work drawn that appear underage. (Diaper wearing toddler or infant looking characters, or basically any character under 4ft or so.)
> ...


 
Quoting to preserve this title forever.


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

A fingering question about the cub ban....
oh wait


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

None of my 5 banks asked what I'm using my bank accounts for. They're just happy to serve you.


----------



## Fay V (Dec 5, 2010)

*Re: A fingering question about the cub ban*

Dear lord people. It doesn't matter at all what the official US law is for cub porn. Businesses can look at something and thing "oh that looks like a kid getting raped" and not want to work with FA. THAT is what happened. The laws are irrelevant. A Business looked at this and decided "no, that's gross". 
Even beyond that international laws are being taken into account and outside the US there are laws that if it has human qualities, it still counts as a person. 
You're not going to get your cub porn back, it won't come back if you think it is moral or not. It was a business decision based on how things APPEAR. This will be judged on how things appear. Yes that's all terribly subjective, but that's how the cookie crumbles. If you think the style may be taken as cub, practice a new style and learn some new artistic tricks.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> I suggest you look into what is called a 'Fictitious Business Name Statement' before you go saying such a thing. This little document allows a single controlling person to do business as any entity they please. This is how individuals in the USA open bank accounts with a name OTHER than their real name.


 
Regardless of a Fictitious Business Name Statement, if you do not tell or lie to the bank the nature of the account you want to open you are liable.

Legal loopholes are not simple.



SEGAMew said:


> None of my 5 banks asked what I'm using my bank accounts for. They're just happy to serve you.



You are an individual, not a company.


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> A fingering question about the cub ban....
> oh wait


 Ew?



SEGAMew said:


> None of my 5 banks asked what I'm using my bank accounts for. They're just happy to serve you.


 Personal bank account =/= business bank account?

But since AlertPay isn't omniscient, they had no clue FA was even hosting cub porn until someone tipped them off to it. People tend to forget this part. 
Among other things.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

FA seems more of a personal special interests site not too far off from a forum, but has the ability for its users to upload art. It never struck me as a business site because the site itself doesn't provide items to be bought and sold. Pardon me if my view on what a business site is suppose to be is narrow =P

And I was implying that he could have opened a personal bank account to collect donations for his personal special interest site called FurAffinity.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> FA seems more of a personal special interests site not too far off from a forum, but has the ability for its users to upload art. It never struck me as a business site because the site itself doesn't provide items to be bought and sold. Pardon me if my view on what a business site is suppose to be is narrow =P
> 
> And I was implying that he could have opened a personal bank account to collect donations for his personal special interest site called FurAffinity.


 
A personal account would not suit the needs of the site.


----------



## Fay V (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> FA seems more of a personal special interests site not too far off from a forum, but has the ability for its users to upload art. It never struck me as a business site because the site itself doesn't provide items to be bought and sold. Pardon me if my view on what a business site is suppose to be is narrow =P
> 
> And I was implying that he could have opened a personal bank account to collect donations for his personal special interest site called FurAffinity.


 
FA is an LLC. It is a business. What your personal idea of a business is is irrelevant


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Look, FA can do what it wants. SegaMew why are you still whining about something that you have no influence over?


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Look, FA can do what it wants. SegaMew why are you still whining about something that you have no influence over?


 Because it's fun?


----------



## Fay V (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Look, FA can do what it wants. SegaMew why are you still whining about something that you have no influence over?


 He wants his sonic porn and is too lazy to go to another site.


----------



## Pinkuh (Dec 5, 2010)

Ozzy_Olivers_Cat said:


> I've noticed no one has asked this question. I attempted a similar thread, but never got a full answer.
> I'm currently in the process of drawing more pornographic works and drawings and posting them and I even gone through the process of stating that all characters drawn in porn are over 18, which they are.
> 
> I've been hearing that even if you state your character is over 18, their is a chance you'll be flagged if the character appears young. I'm asking how is this being judged. I understand the obvious circumstances of art work drawn that appear underage. (Diaper wearing toddler or infant looking characters, or basically any character under 4ft or so.)
> ...


 
The problem here isn't the fact that you state that you're characters are over 18, it's the fact that anyone who doesn't know your characters will not know they are over 18. 

We can't sit around here and argue Semantics. If a character looks sexually immature then we have to treat them as such. There are certain body proportions that are associated with characters looking young. And if someone from whatever donation service/whatever sees the artwork and their first lurch is "Holy shit thats a kid" then we have a problem. You can draw femme boys and twinks and have them look of age, but as it stands right now you're characters both look to be around 10-12. Large hands, large heads, round hips, small chest-bases.

Going through your gallery you also have a couple submissions with "Boy" in the name. That automatically means the character is young.

I am sorry but at this point Pornography of your characters would be disallowed. 

Now mind you, while as long as you arn't showing their genitalia you are good (the couple examples that you showed me do not... well... one ALMOST does) But unless they actually look of age you can not show them in sexual situations. And thats the long and the short of it.


----------



## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Regardless of a Fictitious Business Name Statement, if you do not tell or lie to the bank the nature of the account you want to open you are liable.



Just out of curiosity, do you happen to run a business, and if so, did you open the bank account yourself? If you did, first off you'd know they can't ask you too deeply about the nature of your business. All you have to say is 'Art site' and that is it. They can't ask you too deeply lest they put you in a position to violate one of your contracts/NDA/Trade Secrets.


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Pinkuh said:


> Large hands, *large heads*, round hips, small chest-bases.


 Except..cub/teen characters usually don't have disproportional head sizes. Babies maybe, but not shota or cub. :|


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Fay V said:


> He wants his sonic porn and is too lazy to go to another site.


 
I'm female... =(

And it never hurts to come to a compromise or get some sort of clarification on something, especially when were just told that we can't use Sonic in our adult art at all because he'll be canonly 15/16 forever.


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Woah Pinkuh. You exist. I am shocked. And the law was laid down.



SEGAMew said:


> I'm female... =(


Lies. Pics of tits or it never happened.
And we don't compromise with terrorists cub porn people.


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you happen to run a business, and if so, did you open the bank account yourself? If you did, first off you'd know they can't ask you too deeply about the nature of your business. All you have to say is 'Art site' and that is it. They can't ask you too deeply lest they put you in a position to violate one of your contracts/NDA/Trade Secrets.


 No they can't ask you too deeply about the nature of your business you're right, _but_ they can still suspend your account with them if it turns out you're violating one of their rules. That's what happened here.


----------



## Fay V (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> I'm female... =(
> 
> And it never hurts to come to a compromise or get some sort of clarification on something, especially when were just told that we can't use Sonic in our adult art at all because he'll be canonly 15/16 forever.


 
No, you were told to age up. You were told that if they appear underage, then it is cub. Your argument has been "but the style" which means nothing because they style makes them look too young. 
If you want sonic porn, make them appear older.


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

AlertPay was the 'bank' system of FA. They do not support child pornography and now have suspended FA's account while withholding funds. Banning cub keeps FA alive, and it is the choice of the site's owner, Dragoneer, who can do whatever the fuck he wants with FA because he owns it.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Lies. Pics of tits or it never happened.



What if I'm a Mew that can't be drawn aged up with human tits?

OH GOSH I AM CUB NOW.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Fay V said:


> No, you were told to age up. You were told that if they appear underage, then it is cub. Your argument has been "but the style" which means nothing because they style makes them look too young.
> If you want sonic porn, make them appear older.


 
Pinkuh in the other thread said that we have to go by canon ages now, hence why a ton of confusion and flames bursted out and train wrecks were happening in the other thread.


----------



## Fay V (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> What if I'm a Mew that can't be drawn aged up with human tits?
> 
> OH GOSH I AM CUB NOW.


 Or feral...


----------



## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> No they can't ask you too deeply about the nature of your business you're right, _but_ they can still suspend your account with them if it turns out you're violating one of their rules. That's what happened here.


 
*digs through his own bank contracts*

I see nothing regarding the nature of payments or business having any effect, for any of my two business accounts. In fact, the rules I see all relate to either maintaining a certain amount of money in the account at all times, account inactivity, or failing to make required transactions within a certain period. 

See, banks are held to an entirely different standard than PayPal or Alertpay. They can't just lock your money down unless there's obvious theft or unauthorized access to the account, unlike the aforementioned services which can stop at ANY TIME for ANY REASON (and I use PayPal as a payment processor so I know the entire contract back and forth.)


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> What if I'm a Mew that can't be drawn aged up with human tits?
> 
> OH GOSH I AM CUB NOW.



No you're a trap.


----------



## Objection (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> What if I'm a Mew that can't be drawn aged up with human tits?
> 
> OH GOSH I AM CUB NOW.


 just commenting here to post that dragooner said that pokemon/digimon/etc, when drawn in their original forms, are in the "beast" category and not the cub category.

unless you're talking about gjinka versions or however you spell it but then it would be entirely the artist's fault as to how old mew looks and not the "style of the franchise."


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> *digs through his own bank contracts*
> 
> I see nothing regarding the nature of payments or business having any effect, for any of my two business accounts. In fact, the rules I see all relate to either maintaining a certain amount of money in the account at all times, account inactivity, or failing to make required transactions within a certain period.
> 
> See, banks are held to an entirely different standard than PayPal or Alertpay. They can't just lock your money down unless there's obvious theft or unauthorized access to the account, unlike the aforementioned services which can stop at ANY TIME for ANY REASON (and I use PayPal as a payment processor so I know the entire contract back and forth.)


 
This is what I initially thought about banks. The only reason I can think of that would allow any banks in America to outright terminate your account is when you network attack their bank systems or carry a large sum of "black money" in your account.


----------



## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> *digs through his own bank contracts*
> 
> I see nothing regarding the nature of payments or business having any effect, for any of my two business accounts. In fact, the rules I see all relate to either maintaining a certain amount of money in the account at all times, account inactivity, or failing to make required transactions within a certain period.
> 
> See, banks are held to an entirely different standard than PayPal or Alertpay. They can't just lock your money down unless there's obvious theft or unauthorized access to the account, unlike the aforementioned services which can stop at ANY TIME for ANY REASON (and I use PayPal as a payment processor so I know the entire contract back and forth.)



They can't use a bank. Stop this. Dragoneer wants to use Alertpay and damn it they are gonna use it.


----------



## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> *digs through his own bank contracts*
> 
> I see nothing regarding the nature of payments or business having any effect, for any of my two business accounts. In fact, the rules I see all relate to either maintaining a certain amount of money in the account at all times, account inactivity, or failing to make required transactions within a certain period.
> 
> See, banks are held to an entirely different standard than PayPal or Alertpay. They can't just lock your money down unless there's obvious theft or unauthorized access to the account, unlike the aforementioned services which can stop at ANY TIME for ANY REASON (and I use PayPal as a payment processor so I know the entire contract back and forth.)


 Here's about a few days worth of reading for you. It might help to educate yourself.

AlertPay like PayPal, is a pay processor. 
I don't know the contract back and forth, because I don't own a business nor do I care. But, there's only one thing I really need to know to get the situation. Something you and several other people here seem to be lacking. 

Banks won't do business with FA either, from what I remember.


----------



## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> They can't use a bank. Stop this. Dragoneer wants to use Alertpay and damn it they are gonna use it.


 
But AlertPay dumped Dragoneer and FA and ran away with the money. Dragoneer must now find a more suitable alternative.


----------



## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> They can't use a bank. Stop this. Dragoneer wants to use Alertpay and damn it they are gonna use it.


 
And one day they'll get bitten again by AlertPay and we'll be repeating this whole drama-fest!


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> Here's about a few days worth of reading for you. It might help to educate yourself.
> 
> AlertPay like PayPal, is a pay processor.
> I don't know the contract back and forth, because I don't own a business nor do I care. But, there's only one thing I really need to know to get the situation. Something you and several other people here seem to be lacking.
> ...



Educate? That was more entertaining than educating. My accountant would be laughing himself half to death right about now at a fair majority of that. Please, 'educate' me further!

Banks will take Dragoneer. It's that simple.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> And one day they'll get bitten again by AlertPay and we'll be repeating this whole drama-fest!


 
AlertPay. Isn't. Taking. Them. Back.

Jesus christ, fucking read or just stop posting.

You are a retard.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> AlertPay. Isn't. Taking. Them. Back.
> 
> Jesus christ, fucking read or just stop posting.
> 
> You are a retard.


 
I think that was a joke reply to Deo's reply that implied that AlertPay will take him back.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> I think that was a joke reply to Deo's reply that implied that AlertPay will take him back.


 
Oh shit I missed that.

Dammit Deo, be more serious.


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> AlertPay. Isn't. Taking. Them. Back.
> 
> Jesus christ, fucking read or just stop posting.
> 
> You are a retard.



Actually, I'd be willing to bet that AlertPay would take them back once certain things were demonstrated to have been removed.

Most services like that tend to do it so they can take your money again. AlertPay is almost the EXACT SAME as PayPal in terms of behavior.  I've got the actual professional experience dealing with these companies, you apparently do not, and thus your words mean exactly nothing, nor do they hold any authoritative weight. 

And is retarded the best insult you can come up with? Well, I'll take retardation over having your limited vocabulary, quis tempus, quis diem, quis annum.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Dammit Deo, be more serious.


 
_*NEVARRRRR!!!*_


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Actually, I'd be willing to bet that AlertPay would take them back once certain things were demonstrated to have been removed.


Wouldn't change a thing aside from the fact that FA has its pay site again. 



> I've got the actual professional experience dealing with these companies, you apparently do not, and thus your words mean exactly nothing, nor do they hold any authoritative weight.


Elitist much? Admittedly, I lol'd. 

Have you ever been in this position since you seem to know so much about this and the situation at hand. Did you read my link?
Obviously not because you know everything about this. 

How about Dragoneer just hands FA over to you since you seem to have so much experience working with these places. 

Seriously?

Your words have as much authoritative weight as a sack of potatoes.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Goddamn it people.
YOUR OPINIONS HAVE NO VALUE.
YOU HAVE NO INFLUENCE OVER THIS.
FA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.
DRAGONEER CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS WITH HIS SITE.
YOUR PATHETIC WHINING REEKS OF ENTITLEMENT.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> And is retarded the best insult you can come up with? Well, I'll take retardation over having your limited vocabulary, quis tempus, quis diem, quis annum.


 
Ooo, you can quote latin. Whoop de do. Personnellement, je parle franÃ§ais.

I used retarded because frankly you are. It's not an insult, it's a statement.



Deovacuus said:


> Goddamn it people.
> YOUR OPINIONS HAVE NO VALUE.
> YOU HAVE NO INFLUENCE OVER THIS.
> FA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.
> ...


 
Thanks Deo, I've already said it a couple times, I'm getting sick of it.


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Willow said:


> Wouldn't change a thing aside from the fact that FA has its pay site again.
> 
> 
> Elitist much? Admittedly, I lol'd.
> ...



Yep, I read the entire link with what we call search tools. You DO know how to grep, yes? Nothing of any relevance was really in there. Yes, I have had this happen, EIGHT TIMES NOW with my own businesses and in personal usage. You have any idea how many times I get shut down for supposedly selling grow lights for pot? You probably don't. 

I've got way more authority on this than you, I've had the intimate dealings with both companies. I deal with both of them almost daily, regarding potential fraud, sudden payment spikes, etc. How much experience do YOU have with them?

Me, run this site? Not interested. I have enough fun running my own businesses.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> I've got way more authority on this than you,




Look fucker I can speak Latin too (look at my name bitch). You are not impressing anyone.
But the fact remains 



Deovacuus said:


> Goddamn it people.
> YOUR OPINIONS HAVE NO VALUE.
> YOU HAVE NO INFLUENCE OVER THIS.
> FA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.
> ...


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## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> I've got way more *experience* on this than you, I've had the intimate dealings with both companies.


 
I think that's a better word for this.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Yep, I read the entire link with what we call search tools.


 
Search â‰  read.

Read fucker.


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Ooo, you can quote latin. Whoop de do.
> 
> I used retarded because frankly you are. It's not an insult, it's a statement.


 
Quote Latin? Please, you probably couldn't even understand the 4th declension. JCL for life, son.

I would be willing to bet you and me met up in a room, you'd be the one walking out with the retarded look on your face. Want to start with biochemistry or should I skip that and go directly to stimulating photosynthesis without any quanta required? Maybe I could tell you how to use capillary action to bypass the need for centrifugal force so you can grow crops hydroponically in zero gravity.

Oh yes, my job, it's higher-level than anything you'll likely be in.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Yep, I read the entire link with what we call search tools. You DO know how to grep, yes? Nothing of any relevance was really in there. Yes, I have had this happen, EIGHT TIMES NOW with my own businesses and in personal usage. You have any idea how many times I get shut down for supposedly selling grow lights for pot? You probably don't.


Nope. But the key word in this part of your post is supposedly. Meaning, it's only speculation but never proven. 
We could PROVE there was cub porn on FA. But it seems you really _don't _know the whole situation. You would have probably learned that AlertPay slammed the door in 'Neer's face. 



> I've got way more authority on this than you, I've had the intimate dealings with both companies. I deal with both of them almost daily, regarding potential fraud, sudden payment spikes, etc. How much experience do YOU have with them?


Oh murr, I love a man with authority. Authoritate me all you want baby. <3

No experience because it's irrelevant in this situation. But don't hurt yourself trying exert how much authority you have here (which is actually 0 because it's not your site). We get it. Your dick is huge. Please put it away though. You're making me cry. 



> Me, run this site? Not interested. I have enough fun running my own businesses.


Oh but you seem to really wanna be the hero of this show. :c


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

"You would have probably learned that AlertPay slammed the door in 'Neer's face."

And you could probably learn that they'll be more than willing to re-open the door the second they see another chance to screw him over.

It's their modus operandi 100%. This is why these companies FIGHT the laws trying to regulate them as banks.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> And you could probably learn that they'll be more than willing to re-open the door the second they see another chance to screw him over.
> 
> It's their modus operandi 100%. This is why these companies FIGHT the laws trying to regulate them as banks.


 
Hence why Paypal is not one of my 5 banks/pseudo bank.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Quote Latin? Please, you probably couldn't even understand the 4th declension. JCL for life, son.
> 
> I would be willing to bet you and me met up in a room, you'd be the one walking out with the retarded look on your face. Want to start with biochemistry or should I skip that and go directly to stimulating photosynthesis without any quanta required? Maybe I could tell you how to use capillary action to bypass the need for centrifugal force so you can grow crops hydroponically in zero gravity.
> 
> Oh yes, my job, it's higher-level than anything you'll likely be in.


 
HAHAHA. It thinks it's smart. Newsflash, I can do all of that too AND not be a pretentious stuck up prick. Amazing. 
And you resort to ad hominem. Both combined are dispicable.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> modus operandi



Ok, the quasi-intellectual bullshit is pissing me off. Yes you know Latin. I know it too. Big whoop de fucking doo. I'm going to Johns Hopkins next year fucker, you'll never step foot there. But I don't rub Latin in people's faces to make them think I'm smart. I let my words speak for themselves. So stop posturing and contribute something of value or shut up and slink away.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Quote Latin? Please, you probably couldn't even understand the 4th declension. JCL for life, son.
> 
> I would be willing to bet you and me met up in a room, you'd be the one walking out with the retarded look on your face. Want to start with biochemistry or should I skip that and go directly to stimulating photosynthesis without any quanta required? Maybe I could tell you how to use capillary action to bypass the need for centrifugal force so you can grow crops hydroponically in zero gravity.
> 
> Oh yes, my job, it's higher-level than anything you'll likely be in.


 Who exactly are you trying to impress with this? 

Cut the condescending bullshit. You're not doing anyone any favors like, at all. 
You're not any more of an authority figure on this situation as am I. Your experience is moot. Irrelevant. And WILL NOT WORK in this situation. 

No one is going to suck your dick right now. So please, CUT THE CRAP. 



Francesco said:


> "You would have probably learned that AlertPay slammed the door in 'Neer's face."
> 
> And you could probably learn that they'll be more than willing to re-open the door the second they see another chance to screw him over.
> 
> It's their modus operandi 100%. This is why these companies FIGHT the laws trying to regulate them as banks.


And it wouldn't change a damn thing.


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

But being condescending makes you appear smart online Willow! AND THAT IS NECESSARY TO BOOST FLIMSY EGOS!


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

"I'm going to Johns Hopkins next year fucker, you'll never step foot there."

I don't have to, I'm already a research director for a multi-national horticultural company and John Hopkins doesn't deal with my field of research. Thanks for playing like you actually know me, though, that gave me a chuckle.

"Newsflash, I can do all of that too"

No, I don't think you can. There are only two other people on the PLANET that can do what I do, you are guaranteed to NOT be one of them, as they're both in the same company I'm in.


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

"But being condescending makes you appear smart online Willow! AND THAT IS NECESSARY TO BOOST FLIMSY EGOS!"

"I'm going to Johns Hopkins next year fucker, you'll never step foot there."

Speak for yourself, eh?


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## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

So like I have a Top Secret Clearance high enough to enter the Pentagon.... but since more than 2 people on the planet holds that kind of clearance, I don't go boasting it around.


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## Francesco (Dec 5, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> So like I have a Top Secret Clearance high enough to enter the Pentagon.... but since more than 2 people on the planet holds that kind of clearance, I don't go boasting it around.


 
Except you don't need a clearance to go into the Pentagon. Been there, done that, to talk with a representative from Dynamax, NASA's acquisitions arm.


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## Xenke (Dec 5, 2010)

I like how the smart man can't even use the quote button. Classy.

For a research guy, you sure don't like reading other threads.

EDIT: Oh look, he did it.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 5, 2010)

Didn't you need to be escorted though?


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## Deo (Dec 5, 2010)

Hahaha. This is funny. Dude if you are so fucking important why the hell are your panties in a knot over furry CUB PORN? I would think if you are whom you claim to be that you'd have better things to do.


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## Willow (Dec 5, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> But being condescending makes you appear smart online Willow! AND THAT IS NECESSARY TO BOOST FLIMSY EGOS!


 And wave your dick in front of little boy wolves apparently ;^;


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## Francesco (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Hahaha. This is funny. Dude if you are so fucking important why the hell are your panties in a knot over furry CUB PORN? I would think if you are whom you claim to be that you'd have better things to do.


 
If you go check all of my posts, not a single one mentions me being upset over cub porn, or showing support for it. Way to assume more nonsense and make a statement without being properly informed. Are you sure you've got the brains to make it into John Hopkins?


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## Deo (Dec 6, 2010)

Hey man we are de-railing this thread. Email me if you want to continue this conversation. And I am curious as to where you work and what you do.

feroxdeovacuusvinco@yahoo.com



Francesco said:


> John Hopkins?


Johns Hopkins.
Johns.
Also thanks for demeaning my intelligence. I hope it makes you feel smarter. Internet is serious right?


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## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Hey man we are de-railing this thread. Email me if you want to continue this conversation. And I am curious as to where you work and what you do.
> 
> feroxdeovacuusvinco@yahoo.com


 
OH BOY, I'M GOING TO EMAIL YOU ALL DAY BBY.


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## Francesco (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Hey man we are de-railing this thread. Email me if you want to continue this conversation. And I am curious as to where you work and what you do.
> 
> feroxdeovacuusvinco@yahoo.com


 
I sent an IM to that name, should you just happen to utilize Yahoo! IM. If not, then e-mail will be incoming.


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## Willow (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Also thanks for demeaning my intelligence. I hope it makes you feel smarter. Internet is serious right?


 I love it when older men demean me. <3

I really need to go to bed right now...that was terrible.


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## Deo (Dec 6, 2010)

I readily await your email.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 6, 2010)

Today has been one amazing day.


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## Francesco (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> I readily await your email.


 
Sent with 14 megs of pictures.


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## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

Francesco said:


> Sent with 14 megs of pictures.


 
That sounds stupid.

Deo, if these somehow go though, post 'em.


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## Deo (Dec 6, 2010)

The pictures are nice. What company do you work for?


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## Francesco (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> The pictures are nice. What company do you work for?


 
We haven't taken a name, yet. We're still working out that detail when we have our get together to discuss our merger.

I'll not mention the name here of my own company, let's not spam up the forums with self-advertising. But I'll e-mail that to you as well with my business card if you'd like.


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## Deo (Dec 6, 2010)

Francesco said:


> We haven't taken a name, yet. We're still working out that detail when we have our get together to discuss our merger.
> 
> I'll not mention the name here of my own company, let's not spam up the forums with self-advertising. But I'll e-mail that to you as well with my business card if you'd like.



That would be nice. Thanks.


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## Jesie (Dec 6, 2010)

Did this conversation just get weird? One second she wants to rip his face off and the next he's giving her his business card? I have perhaps missed something?


I hope your only intent to use said card is to cut his head off with the sharp edges Deo.


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## RageDragon (Dec 6, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> What if I'm a Mew that can't be drawn aged up with human tits?
> 
> OH GOSH I AM CUB NOW.


 
But you're not. You're a human.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 6, 2010)

RageDragon said:


> But you're not. You're a human.


 
But reality is just so boring.


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## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

Jesie said:


> Did this conversation just get weird? One second she wants to rip his face off and the next he's giving her his business card? I have perhaps missed something?
> 
> 
> I hope your only intent to use said card is to cut his head off with the sharp edges Deo.


 
Deo just has this aura.

It's an aura of false trust, followed by dismemberment.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Deo just has this aura.
> 
> It's an aura of false trust, followed by dismemberment.


 
Those darn Tasmanian *devils*


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## Deo (Dec 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Deo just has this aura.
> 
> It's an aura of false trust, followed by dismemberment.



Oh you know me. LOL.


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## Penumbra Noct (Dec 6, 2010)

Deovacuus said:


> Oh you know me. LOL.


 
I don't, but he/she/it cracks me up. smirk.


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## Deo (Dec 6, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> Those darn Tasmanian *devils*



I am a she-devil. Haters gonna hate. :V


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## Francesco (Dec 6, 2010)

Considering I like pain, I encourage you do do your worst! :3

Fair warning - the right side is titanium reinforced. If you wanna hurt me the most, aim on my left.


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

Okay seems like you guys had a lovely chat the last pages. xP
Also I see there is no really conclusion comming up what isn't our fault but it seems like ... impossible to save a site whith "(wanna-be-)underaged-cub-fictional-character-art"...

Oh dear... and what if we would start a sign document? Like everybody who is against the ban/shutting down FA signs there. Could we reach something with that? ^^:


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## RageDragon (Dec 6, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Oh dear... and what if we would start a sign document? Like everybody who is against the ban/shutting down FA signs there. Could we reach something with that? ^^:



You'll definitely reach something! Hell, I bet you could supply Neer with toilet paper for a month!


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

RageDragon said:


> You'll definitely reach something! Hell, I bet you could supply Neer with toilet paper for a month!



It was just an idea...


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## Ozzy_Olivers_Cat (Dec 6, 2010)

The torrent, I've unleashed. I read the latest ban. . . but, man, is this like walking on a thin glass ceiling. I guess i'll be lumped into the cub artists and tossed off when I start drawing porn of my 22 year old fursona who owns a apartment, goes to college and hates kids. Even though I drew him to be an appealing cute adult cat character and not a child because I watch alot of anime. . . .


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## Redregon (Dec 6, 2010)

i find these threads kinda hilarious... seriously? OP? it's not going to kill you to learn to flex your artistic muscles and try and draw something that is a bit outside of your "style"

and it's not going to kill you (if you choose not to even try) to leave out the porn. you don't "NEED" to draw porn and if you do, it's not like you're forbidded to draw it... just, not allowed to post stuff that could be taken as CP here. that's all.


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

We just stand up for what we like. You can also say: you don't need something like a candy bar, mobile phone, computer, video games ... They are all goods that won't help you in life (like food and water) at all. But it's nice to have something like this


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## Ozzy_Olivers_Cat (Dec 6, 2010)

Redregon said:


> i find these threads kinda hilarious... seriously? OP? it's not going to kill you to learn to flex your artistic muscles and try and draw something that is a bit outside of your "style"
> 
> and it's not going to kill you (if you choose not to even try) to leave out the porn. you don't "NEED" to draw porn and if you do, it's not like you're forbidded to draw it... just, not allowed to post stuff that could be taken as CP here. that's all.



It's not a need, more of a want. Also, I'm not against flexing my art muscles, that much is true. I'm complaining about having to completely alter characters I've drawn a certain way. Even when I had no intention of them being underage in the first place. I agree with you that my characters do look a little young, but I don't mind drawing them thier age. Is moreso, altering them to the more realistic interpetation of mature, instead of making an adult and girlish looking character like I want. 

I drew my character in the vein of how real cats are kinda. An exaggerated design. He's a puny house cat, not a burly tiger or lion. I just want to keep him a twink. . .thats all. I don't want him to be a kid, just a scrawny feminine attractive character.
My real question is, just how old do I have to draw these two. I mean, I'd like a visual of it. Are we talking giving him a mustache and beard or drawing him with more muscles then he has, broadening his shoulders and making him look less anime.

I mean, I also take my influences from artists like Onta and Peritian here on FA. Marty sure doesn't look over 18 to me.


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## LeonHunter (Dec 6, 2010)

Ozzy_Olivers_Cat said:


> It's not a need, more of a want. Also, I'm not against flexing my art muscles, that much is true. I'm complaining about having to completely alter characters I've drawn a certain way. Even when I had no intention of them being underage in the first place. I agree with you that my characters do look a little young, but I don't mind drawing them thier age. Is moreso, altering them to the more realistic interpetation of mature, instead of making an adult and girlish looking character like I want.
> 
> I drew my character in the vein of how real cats are kinda. An exaggerated design. He's a puny house cat, not a burly tiger or lion. I just want to keep him a twink. . .thats all. I don't want him to be a kid, just a scrawny feminine attractive character.
> My real question is, just how old do I have to draw these two. I mean, I'd like a visual of it. Are we talking giving him a mustache and beard or drawing him with more muscles then he has, broadening his shoulders and making him look less anime.
> ...


 
I've come to the conclusion that FA is no longer a good place to host art, it's slowly becoming DA, minus the pretty look. If you think your art is going to be borderline, host it somewhere else where money does not override policy. *FA POLICY DOES NOT SHAPE ART, ART SHOULD SHAPE FA POLICY (except where money is involved as we recently saw).* 

The thing that rubs me up the wrong way is the lack of a decisive definition from staff on any issue, not just this one and the fact that some of the moderators seem to be overly condecending at times, quotes on request. (You're are mods on a furry forum, congratulations, gonna run for president now?).

I find it hilarious that one of the mods was telling someone just to draw thier pictures noticibly older, the correct answer would be to find a site that can accomodate that style of art. By all means tell people what is acceptable on FA and what is not, but don't tell people HOW to draw thier pictures, it's not your place.


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## SEGAMew (Dec 6, 2010)

I bet you if Sonic died of old age, he'll still be classified as cub.

Oh look nine more days for me to clear out my gallery.


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

> *FA POLICY DOES NOT SHAPE ART, ART SHOULD SHAPE FA POLICY (except where money is involved as we recently saw)*



Right that is! : )


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> I bet you if Sonic died of old age, he'll still be classified as cub.



Hahaha, perhaps! XD
Well but honestly: when Shadow looks excact the same as Sonic and he's suppose to be 50 - how old will they look when they (WOULD) die?
 It's like it was with Dragonball GT. Vegeta and Goku used to be (over) 50 and looked like in their mid-twenties. XD


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## SEGAMew (Dec 6, 2010)

Vegta and Goku are aliens and follow different rates of growth... =P


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

SEGAMew said:


> Vegta and Goku are aliens and follow different rates of growth... =P



believe me I know that. xP
Nevertheless since they have MORE THAN ENOUGH human adittute they can also be seen as humans (in a way).


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## sonishi (Dec 6, 2010)

Anyways to get back to the topic: what can we do to avoid sites becoming like FA did with their policity? (I know it was not FA's fault!)
I highly doubt other sites will be spared from that policity. It's just a question of time ...


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## Redregon (Dec 6, 2010)

sonishi said:


> Anyways to get back to the topic: what can we do to avoid sites becoming like FA did with their policity? (I know it was not FA's fault!)
> I highly doubt other sites will be spared from that policity. It's just a question of time ...


 
simple answer... don't let it get so large to the point where you need donations or any form of income to maintain it's uptime or bandwidth.

if FA never grew larger than 1000 members, chances are this whole thing would never have come to this.


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## Redregon (Dec 6, 2010)

Ozzy_Olivers_Cat said:


> It's not a need, more of a want. Also, I'm not against flexing my art muscles, that much is true. I'm complaining about having to completely alter characters I've drawn a certain way. Even when I had no intention of them being underage in the first place. I agree with you that my characters do look a little young, but I don't mind drawing them thier age. Is moreso, altering them to the more realistic interpetation of mature, instead of making an adult and girlish looking character like I want.
> 
> I drew my character in the vein of how real cats are kinda. An exaggerated design. He's a puny house cat, not a burly tiger or lion. I just want to keep him a twink. . .thats all. I don't want him to be a kid, just a scrawny feminine attractive character.
> My real question is, just how old do I have to draw these two. I mean, I'd like a visual of it. Are we talking giving him a mustache and beard or drawing him with more muscles then he has, broadening his shoulders and making him look less anime.
> ...


 
fair enough. hell, i know it's not the easiest thing to do also... to change one's style. 

though to be frank, i HAVE seen examples of that sort of anime style where it's hard to misinterpret them as childlike... things like making sure the muscle mass is defined, the proportions are a little bit more "adult like" and such... even things like making sure that feminine and masculine features are more pronounced (since people don't tend to differentiate gender-wise until they're in puberty.) not major but still there. 

and yeah, i do understand that it's a potentially frustrating thing to have to consider either changing or moving or refraining... but, as much as it is a pain in the ass it's something that kinda has to be done if FA wants to keep on existing (assuming that there isn't some millionaire philanthropist furry-fan that's willing to foot the bills.)


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## Ozzy_Olivers_Cat (Dec 6, 2010)

Redregon said:


> fair enough. hell, i know it's not the easiest thing to do also... to change one's style.
> 
> though to be frank, i HAVE seen examples of that sort of anime style where it's hard to misinterpret them as childlike... things like making sure the muscle mass is defined, the proportions are a little bit more "adult like" and such... even things like making sure that feminine and masculine features are more pronounced (since people don't tend to differentiate gender-wise until they're in puberty.) not major but still there.
> 
> and yeah, i do understand that it's a potentially frustrating thing to have to consider either changing or moving or refraining... but, as much as it is a pain in the ass it's something that kinda has to be done if FA wants to keep on existing (assuming that there isn't some millionaire philanthropist furry-fan that's willing to foot the bills.)



I'm already weighing my alternatives. I don't blame the admins, because well, owning a site seems like it would be difficult. Especially one like FA. It's like a small country of Furrydom. . . .or of porn furrydom.


----------

