# Inadvertantly Trolled the ENTIRE Poetry Class



## RedSavage (Nov 9, 2011)

First off, class occurred right after I slapped myself in the face for the last monstrosity of a thread, hence why I'm making another thread so soon instead of crawling under a rock to lurk a bit more. It's just that this was, quite frankly, hilarious, and raises a good point about shock factor and vulgarity. Plus I didn't want to forget any of the details of the adventure that I'm about to unfold, which I'm calling the "Texas Tech Freudian Slip Incident".

Today was workshop day, where they take our poems and critique and discuss them. I handed my poem out to them this previous Monday, so they've had a day and a half to read it. 

Now, I'm going to be honest. I'm not the greatest at poetry. Yes, I've _improved_, but this poem in particular was lazy, just plain lazy. I had to write a Sestina, a maddening form of poem that uses repetitive end words. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sestina

Thing is, I was so frustrated by this poem that I took the easy way out, got drunk, and _then_ set about writing it. Somehow I started thinking about a horrendous (and short) stint with acid that I did. Quite frankly, it was terrible and a bit frightening, and something I wanted to convey in the poem. 

However, take in mind that I was drunk, and I ended up writing this little monstrosity of a poem. Warning, it's a little vulgar: http://www.text-upload.com/read.php?id=194269&c=8278574 And then I distributed 19 copies of this to the class and professor for critique. Honestly, I didn't think anything about it. I figured hell, it's a poem I don't care about, and yeah I know it's shit, but at least it'll give them plenty to talk about. Whatever. 

Little did I know, they would do exactly _that_. They had a _lot_ to say about this poem, particularly the fifth stanza and the amount of vulgarity in there. I had one girl tell me, flat out, "I didn't appreciate the word "cock". *If I can avoid using it in my poems, then so can you.*" Another comment from a Christian fellow, "I know it was supposed to fit in the poem, but the phrase 'mother-fucking-Jesus' was a little offensive."  So basically, critics of the poem cited that pretty much all or most of the vulgarity in the poem was unnecessary, and I should take it out.

What few supporters I had commented that they weren't bothered by the provocative language and imagery, and thought it might fit the quota of a bad trip well, and pretty much deterred them from every trying the stuff. They said the poem just needed more direction, and needed to be tightened up (as well as changing some of the end words to not be so repetitive, something I admit is the main problem in this poem.)

*SO. The question.* To you, does the poem unnecessarily vulgar and pointless in it's graphic nature, as if it was merely going for shock value? Or is it a solid draft with potential, and that the fact that it's eliciting such a response is something of merit? And as a sub-topic, where do _you_ create the line for unjustified vulgarity?

Word of god on this poem real fast, I _wasn't_ going for shock value. I just wasn't putting to much thought on the repercussions of the words used, and being drunk helped me not give a damn about writing on this particular topic. Also, I may have been a bit frisky when writing this poem, thus creating the humongous Freudian Slip factor this poem has, but whatever. Also, the poem is shit! It's a rough, _rough_ draft and I couldn't stress that to myself as they more or less _slammed_ my poem during class. 

If nothing else, however, at least I prevented any wishy-washy feelings of "Ya the poem was okay I guess."

~cc

Ps: My own critiques is to re-arrange the _entire_ poem. Get rid of end-stopped lines to take emphasis away from those repeated words. Also, change "maw" to "mouth" and think about replacing "trips" with something else.


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## Ariosto (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm feeling lazy and am going to be in my critique:
-Not going too deeply, I like its musicality (I find it euphonic to a degree).
-Frankly, swear words don't shock me anymore, unless they fill the entire thing, in which case it becomes annoying. Your poem is not filled to the brim with swear words, so that's a plus. Although I'll agree with the girl, your use of "cock" in the fifth stanza is rather unpleasant to the ears. 
-Swear words can be used effectively. The last word of one of GarcÃ­a MÃ¡rquez novels is "mierda" (shit) and it's perfect in the novel's context, utterly perfect. 

Regarding your use of swear words... I'll dig onto it later.


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## M. LeRenard (Nov 9, 2011)

This is something I rarely do, because usually it's the other way around, but I think this actually has a better place in the Bloc than here.  So I'm moving it.

With regard to vulgarity... well, maybe I'm not the best one to talk about it, but I tend to draw a very thin line in terms of where it's appropriate and where it's not.  And the thickness of that line is your meaning, pure and simple.  I know a lot of writers are particularly sensitive about words like 'fuck' or 'cock' or 'shit' or whatever, and they throw around this excuse of, 'If I can write it without using those words, so can you', but frankly... that excuse is complete horseshit.  Sometimes you _shouldn't_ write it without cussing.  Sometimes the word 'fuck' is exactly the right word to express the emotion you want to get across.  As much as literature snobs hate to admit it, cuss words are part of the language, and there's as much finesse required in their use as there is in using a word like, say, I don't know... 'portent', or 'mellifluous', or something obscure and specific like that.  The kinds of words people who hate cussing love to throw around.
I mean, you have to ask yourself, why is it that 'to have sex' doesn't carry the same weight as 'to fuck'?  They both mean the same thing, but one is approved and the other isn't.  So there's a distinction in the meaning on some level, and so there are circumstances when you'd want to use one and not the other, just like every other word in the language.  So I say, if it's the right word, fucking use it, bitch.


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## Cyanide_tiger (Nov 9, 2011)

Unfortunately, as far as writing goes, poetry is my weak spot. I can't offer much critique on it if any. 

What I can tell you though is that word selection is very important when writing a piece of any nature. While many words and phrases mean essentially the same thing, there are some that have various implications attached to them. Word and phrase selection is primarily both a matter of your personal style and what you want to make the reader feel. Generally when I use vulgarity or harsher language in my writing, it is to give the reader a sharp poke of graphic shock - don't mistake that for saying that all writing should be clean and child-friendly, because that is nowhere near the case. It's sort of like the difference between telling someone "please be quiet" and "shut the fuck up." One of those implies a greater degree of annoyance, agitation, and even anger than the other one does. If you're attempting to shock your readers into not trying LSD, then loading the poem with vile imagery and harsh wording may be a good thing here. I have never indulged in LSD personally, so I can't tell how intensive your language should be though, so that's something you'll have to decide on your own.


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## Aden (Nov 9, 2011)

"Make art...but don't offend anyone!"


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## Ariosto (Nov 9, 2011)

Aden said:


> "Make art...but don't offend anyone!"



Said a faithful student of Horace. Not being able to use swear words is just as ridiculous as not being allowed to talk about(or show) despicable acts. 
Like Kyle's mom said with an obvious satyrical intent behind those words that she didn't mean: "Extreme violence is okay as long as no one says bad words".


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## Conker (Nov 9, 2011)

I don't think it's vulgar, and it sure isn't vulgar for the sake of it. The lines in question are fine and fit the poem well; your classmates are just being overly sensitive. 

Other than the repetition, I like the poem actually.


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## LizardKing (Nov 9, 2011)

I thought it pretty entertaining, then laughed out loud on the fifth stanza. Drunk poetry is best poetry. Fuck the people who thought it was unnecessary, it's _poetry_ for crying out loud. If it works, it works. 

I'm shit it at critiquing anything that isn't a limerick (<3) though, so I wont bother.


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## sunandshadow (Nov 9, 2011)

I really hope that was a freshman class, because no one older than that has any excuse for thinking profanity is not a valid ingredient in poetry.


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## RedSavage (Nov 9, 2011)

sunandshadow said:


> I really hope that was a freshman class, because no one older than that has any excuse for thinking profanity is not a valid ingredient in poetry.



Nope.avi it was a Junior level class. (Also, with farther address comments later when I've read them in depth)


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## Conker (Nov 9, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> Nope.avi it was a Junior level class. (Also, with farther address comments later when I've read them in depth)


Man, that poem is so tame compared to the few I wrote for my poetry class back when I was a sophomore. I never got yelled at by classmates though for being vulgar, just the teacher 

If they find yours inappropriate, I can't imagine what they'd think of Walt Whitman, who is more than just highly respected in the literary crowd. He wrote some raunchy poems, that dirty old man :3


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## Kamatz (Nov 10, 2011)

If someone was offended then clearly you did something right.

I like it, I think it's a solid draft which needs tweaking and focus.

Don't change the word maw. Mouth doesn't feel as wide or menacing.


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## RedSavage (Nov 11, 2011)

Alright. So it's pretty much been figured that the language is not an issue, and entire Poetry Class is babies. As mentioned in the OP and pretty much agreed with, there's an issue with the redundancy through the repetition, and could work well to be tightened up. 

Another thing I need to ask, do I need to add the same level of intensity in the fifth stanza into the rest of the poem? It'd add some balance, I think.


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## Riyeko (Nov 12, 2011)

> To you, does the poem unnecessarily vulgar and pointless in it's graphic nature, as if it was merely going for shock value?


I dont believe that after reading it, the vulgarity was in there for the shock value. 
And honestly there wasnt that much vulgarity in there at all. 
Sure you used the word cock, and mother fucking.. but so what. Thats not as bad as some of the other poetry ive read with the "other c word" in there about a dozen times, the "other f word" in there at least half as many, as well as all the generic curse words.
I believe the shock value came with more of the content. You are talking about taking acid, and tripping on it. Thats the shock value in my opinion.



> Or is it a solid draft with potential, and that the fact that it's eliciting such a response is something of merit?


I believe its okay written, but the story and picture is just out of reach.
With some fine tuning and some better choices for words (you can use maw in place of mouth some places, but use maw as well as .. like a deep gaping maw).
Then I beileve it would be something I would honestly enjoy reading. 



> And as a sub-topic, where do _you_ create the line for unjustified vulgarity?


Depends.
Theres a lot of things that offend me, such as the "n word", the "c word", and of course since everyone else rants about me using it, the "other f word".
I think using racial epithets, anything thats .. racist or morally wrong, shouldnt be used. But.. there are times when using them would be appropriate.. such as a poem thats surrounding the times when Equal Rights was in question for African Americans. Using the "n word" on occasion in a poem like that, would be okay..

Now, unjustifiable cursing and vulgarity... possibly a poem about gore, or gore porn would be disgusting.
That would be unjustifiable.


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## Fearkissers (Nov 12, 2011)

I personally like the poem a fair bit, though I'll agree the "Mother-fucking Jesus" part could be taken out. I don't think it has tremendous shock value because it does have an underlying story, and it's certainly not "pointless" as most vulgar poems tend to be. I thought the connection to oral sex and needing more was pretty brilliant, though not for the ears of some. It really reminds me of William S. Burrough's "Naked Lunch" in how it's tastefully crude and raw, I think that if you like this writing style than you should read the book. As for where I draw the line on "unjustified vulgarity", I think that if you are using cruse words for fuck's sake then it's just not okay. If the author is using curse words where other words can be substituted tastefully than it's probably only there for shock value, which is no value at all. This poem has great potential and you should continue to revise and edit it, maybe post the final version here for comparison. Over-all I liked it and wouldn't say it's excessively disturbing.


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## Swiftz (Dec 22, 2011)

Dude IMHO i dont think it mattered if you were drunk or completely sober the poem did come from you and it was your piece. If they want to troll about it cuz THEY dont like it thats their problem. Keep writing what and how you like to and you will get along just fine in life.


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## Aden (Dec 22, 2011)

Swiftz said:


> Dude IMHO i dont think it mattered if you were drunk or completely sober the poem did come from you and it was your piece. If they want to troll about it cuz THEY dont like it thats their problem. Keep writing what and how you like to and you will get along just fine in life.



This is kinda old (you'll notice discussion has pretty much ceased) and you didn't really add anything new here. Keep in mind not to do that if you can help it.


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