# Little Question Regarding Hermaphrodite Pronouns



## Valery91Thunder (Feb 3, 2011)

It's a silly question and I should probably feel bad for asking, but I'm very curious when it comes to grammar.

As far as I know, when we're referring to a subject that is crearly human but it is impossible to determinate the gender, it is correct to refer to such person with the pronoun "They". Therefore, I thought that it was correct to use the same pronoun when referring both to neutral characters (who lack of both female and male features) and hermaphrodite characters (who have both male and female features).

I've seen, however, artists and other furries who refer to their herm characters with the pronouns Shi, Hir or Xe.

My question is: were this pronouns invented by the furry fandom itself to refer as such characters? Or did they exist before the furry fandom (like, furries took these words from a book/novel of reference, or a completely different fandom)? Or, do these pronouns actually exist in the english grammar?


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## Mr Meatballs (Feb 3, 2011)

More importent question: which public bathroom do herms use?


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## Kitsune_Morric (Feb 3, 2011)

i just reference them by their name constantly, cuz then there's no mistakes >_<


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## Monster. (Feb 3, 2011)

I doubt those pronouns actually exist. Like furries. I doubt that word is or has ever been in the dictionary. It's just slang, I'm sure; personally, I think it's stupid when people say "Shi" or "Hir". I just say he or she, depending on what the character/person looks like most.


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## LizardKing (Feb 3, 2011)

Valery91Thunder said:


> ...with the pronouns Shi, Hir or Xe



As far as I am aware, the correct pronoun for general use is in fact, "that freak".


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## Valery91Thunder (Feb 3, 2011)

> More importent question: which public bathroom do herms use?


It's even more confusing when thinking to neutral characters: how do they even pee? ._.


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## Monster. (Feb 3, 2011)

Valery91Thunder said:


> It's even more confusing when thinking to neutral characters: how do they even pee? ._.


I think of there's a herm character with a vagina, it's just a vagina; there's no urethra. So I'm guessing they piss from their dick. Just a guess, tho.


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## Willow (Feb 3, 2011)

I use gender neutral pronouns when I don't know the gender or it's herm, so things like it, they, their, etc. Or whatever they look like more.


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## Kitsune_Morric (Feb 3, 2011)

Willow said:


> I use gender neutral pronouns when I don't know the gender or it's herm, so things like it, they, their, etc. Or whatever they look like more.



yeah, if the herm looks much more of a male then i would still say 'he'


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

It depends on the artist, honestly. If they do not mention it in a description, just use they or their name.

And no, the fandom did not invent the shi/xe/zir/etc. pronouns.


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## Browder (Feb 3, 2011)

skittle said:


> And no, the fandom did not invent the shi/xe/zir/etc. pronouns.


 
Those terms were coined by the the LGBT activist groups to help out Genderqueer/Androgyne/etc. Individuals. I've always seen 'xe' spelled zhe though,


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

Browder said:


> Those terms were coined by the the LGBT activist groups to help out Genderqueer?Androgyne/etc. Individuals. I've always seen 'xe' spelled zhe though,


 Correct!
I personally find them stupid but they are less offending than it. Unless you wanna be called that.
There is more than those too.. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Summary


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## The Anarchectomy (Feb 3, 2011)

Though it's not too common, some people were born with both sets of genitalia, AND the parents/doctor decided to leave them because they were afraid of making the wrong choice of what to remove/sew-up. So it's disrespectful for those of you calling them freaks. *hides my dick tits*


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## Jw (Feb 3, 2011)

Why not skip the whole deal and say "that one person over there"? Succinct, politically correct, and whatever else you're aiming for in a noun or noun substitute.

Unless they don't want to be associated with people, then you're pretty much screwed trying to come up with something to say. But I've never heard those "neutral" gender pronouns before now.

Besides, real physical androgyny/ intersex is roughly 1% of the population, and I would think even most would define themselves or associate with a particular gender, with a few wanting to actually be known as intersex because of the stigma. But hey, it's something to think about.

True fax: it's pretty hard to have both genatalia, but rather have it poorly distinguished from each other. Having male and female parts would be about as common as double male or double female compounded with intersex, and usually double-ups are associated with teratogens or something harmful to gene expression while the baby was developing, or something crazy like Vader's Syndrome. 

If you're really interested, just look up "intersex" on a medical site.


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

The Anarchectomy said:


> Though it's not too common, some people were born with both sets of genitalia, AND the parents/doctor decided to leave them because they were afraid of making the wrong choice of what to remove/sew-up. So it's disrespectful for those of you calling them freaks. *hides my dick tits*


 More common than you think, actually.
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency



jwmcd2 said:


> Why not skip the whole deal and say "that one over  there"? Succinct, politically correct, and whatever else you're aiming  for in a noun or noun substitute.
> 
> Unless they don't want to be associated with people, then you're pretty  much screwed trying to come up with something to say. But I've never  heard those "neutral" gender pronouns before now.
> 
> Besides, real androgyny/ intersex is roughly 1% of the population, and I  would think even most would define themselves or associate with a  particular gender, with a few wanting to actually be known as whatever.  But hey, it's something to think about.


-points at above link- More than 1%. Also, what defines 'real'? Personal perception.

"That one over there" is just as offensive as it. Fuck, if not more-so. Thanks for making a gender ambiguous person feel like a hunk of meat or a stock of cattle at an auction. Is THAT hard to say "That person" or "Them"?


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## Browder (Feb 3, 2011)

jwmcd2 said:


> Why not skip the whole deal and say "that one over there"? Succinct, politically correct, and whatever else you're aiming for in a noun or noun substitute.


Linguistically cumbersome. Also the phrase does not make it clear whether that one is a person or not.

EDIT
Yeah, Skittle is a ninja.


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## Kitsune_Morric (Feb 3, 2011)

Browder said:


> EDIT
> Yeah, Skittle is a ninja.



a skilled one at that


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## Slyck (Feb 3, 2011)

I can't help but think sometimes that the T is making the LGB look like a bunch of nuts.

However, I digress. Just ask the person. That's what I'd do, if they get pissed for some reason than chances are they just want to be speshul in the first place and really don't fit in said T.


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## Joeyyy (Feb 3, 2011)

he/she's are shims.


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## Jw (Feb 3, 2011)

skittle said:


> More common than you think, actually.
> http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
> 
> 
> ...





Browder said:


> Linguistically cumbersome. Also the phrase does not make it clear whether that one is a person or not.
> 
> EDIT
> Yeah, Skittle is a ninja.


 
Sorry, I meant "one person", not just "one". Typographical error from running to grab a book for reference. Edited up top^

Real as in expressed, physical incongruencies like a male with a uterus or female without ovaries. Above link site, I do not consider hypospadias as intersex, it's a congenital defect that is pretty common in young boys after birth and in no way is as radically different from "normals" of the two sexes.

Looking in my _Mosby's Dictionary of Medicine_, intersex is "any individual who has anatomic characteristics of both sexes or whose[...] genitalia are inappropriate for either normal male or female."  That's the definition I use, and I don't consider hypospadias as necessarily intersex, which will alter the numbers dramatically. Hypospadias is a symptom, which may or may not be present for something to exist. Example: just because someone has a cough doesn't mean they have lung cancer. Therefore, just because someone presents with hypospadias doesn't mean they are intersex. This is all assuming they counted all children born with this condition as intersex.

Keep in mind that a website sponsored by the condition will tend to alter numbers to make a point of some sort. It might be best to pick a third-party site (.edu or .gov prefereable) to gain a less-biased view than a .org or .com site.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

Not wanting to enrage, just sharing what I've learned in my med classes so far.


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## Brace (Feb 3, 2011)

Mr Meatballs said:


> More importent question: which public bathroom do herms use?


 
[video=youtube;RBK9epKiflo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBK9epKiflo[/video]


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## Valery91Thunder (Feb 3, 2011)

I see now, thanks for the explanation Skittle and Browder.


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## The Anarchectomy (Feb 3, 2011)

To think, all these years, I could be more woman than man. :/


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

Kitsune_Morric said:


> a skilled one at that


 :3c I ninja'd a mod. Fuck yea.



Slyck said:


> I can't help but think sometimes that the T is making the LGB look like a bunch of nuts.
> 
> However, I digress. Just ask the person. That's what I'd do, if they get  pissed for some reason than chances are they just want to be speshul in  the first place and really don't fit in said T.


 Transgender encompasses everything outside cismale and cisfemale. Thus, kinda hard to NOT fit under that umbrella.

Also, pretty sure that nuts people make the GLBT community and all communities look like a bunch of nuts.



jwmcd2 said:


> Sorry, I meant "one person", not just "one".  Typographical error from running to grab a book for reference. Edited up  top^
> 
> Real as in expressed, physical incongruencies like a male with a uterus  or female without ovaries. Above link site, I do not consider  hypospadias as intersex, it's a congenital defect that is pretty common  in young boys after birth and in no way is as radically different from  "normals" of the two sexes.
> 
> Looking in my _Mosby's Dictionary of Medicine_, intersex is "any individual who has anatomic characteristics of both sexes or *whose[...] genitalia are inappropriate for either normal male or female.*"


That definitions includes men with tiny penises and women with giant clits.
Thus by your definitions, the number of intersexed people are still high.
No matter the definition, the number is still higher than most people think.


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## jcfynx (Feb 3, 2011)

I've always seen using pronouns like shi or hir as begging for attention. Is that small-minded of me?

It makes everyone stop and ask questions and make a big deal out of you, which is exactly why a lot of people do things like cross-dressing in public and on the Internet. That, and it gives an identity to otherwise droll persons.

I say just call them "she" or "he" depending on how "it" comes off. Nobody can be truly androgynous.


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> I've always seen using pronouns like shi or hir as begging for attention. Is that small-minded of me?
> 
> It makes everyone stop and ask questions and make a big deal out of you, which is exactly why a lot of people do things like cross-dressing in public and on the Internet. That, and it gives an identity to otherwise droll persons.
> 
> I say just call them "she" or "he" depending on how "it" comes off. Nobody can be truly androgynous.


 I like cross-dressing because I like female clothes. Same goes with my boyfriend. 
I can see how shi/hir/etc. can seem like asking for attention but some people are not happy with the gender binary she/he since they do not fit into it. How do pronouns give someone an identity?

Also, you'd be surprised. I've seen people who I cannot peg as either. Also, please stop using it. Depending on how THEY come off. Come of people, are you too lazy to type an extra... two letters?


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## jcfynx (Feb 3, 2011)

skittle said:


> I like cross-dressing because I like female clothes. Same goes with my boyfriend.
> I can see how shi/hir/etc. can seem like asking for attention but some people are not happy with the gender binary she/he since they do not fit into it. How do pronouns give someone an identity?
> 
> Also, you'd be surprised. I've seen people who I cannot peg as either. Also, please stop using it. Depending on how THEY come off. Come of people, are you too lazy to type an extra... two letters?


 
"They" as a gender-neutral pronoun for a single person is only correct in some instances.

Being vocal about your intersex nature, crossdressing, and using special pronouns, draws attention to you without having to put in any effort. It's a pre-fab identity of a tortured and misunderstood individual for you to slip into. Honestly, in the course of a person's life, what pronoun is used to refer to them is one of the least important things affecting them (this is an acceptable use of the singular "them"), but in public, a lot of intersex and transgender individuals love to fuss over how people refer to them. As soon as someone calls you "she" instead of "shie," you can claim that the world is persecuting you and the monolithic gender dichotomy discriminates against your expression of self. So unfair! Everyone needs to learn about my struggle against wordism.

In reality, it deserves somewhere around a "1" in the scale of caring-about-things. People who actually use "shie" or otherwise correct you for using the wrong pronoun give it at least a "5." People who look like a man dressed like a woman and insist you call them "she" deserve to be punched in the cunt.

If I put on blackface and asked people to call me Jermaine, I'm sure it would be _I_ who would be on the receiving end of said cunt-punching. Even if I really, truly identified with black culture with all my heart-of-hearts.  But transgendered persons have managed to somehow dovetail into the gay acceptance bandwagon, so it's discriminatory to stop coddling their delusions of being something they're not.

In short, people make too much of a deal about how to refer to people, especially on Furnternet, where intersex is just a fetish anyways.


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## Jw (Feb 3, 2011)

skittle said:


> That definitions includes men with tiny penises and women with giant clits.
> Thus by your definitions, the number of intersexed people are still high.
> No matter the definition, the number is still higher than most people think.


 what's small or huge? Those are also, as you said "personal perceptions" unless otherwise defined set measures. 

Sure, "micropenis' I think is defined as one less than 1.5 inches or round about 3 cm. But otherwise a lot of terms are relative, right? anyway, those occasions can also occur from hormone imbalances in childhood and puberty, so it's not always a "congenital intersex" as mentioned.

Also, you link has "Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female	one in 100 births", which is the percentage I gave earlier, so I don't get where you're seeing a number greater than 1% of births.
But whatever, we should not waste our time trying to convince each other of anything when we'll likely disagree. no harm or hard feeling, it just feels nonproductive to argue on the internet.


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## Brace (Feb 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> People who look like a man dressed like a woman and insist you call them "she" deserve to be punched in the cunt.



Try it.



jcfynx said:


> But transgendered persons have managed to somehow dovetail into the gay acceptance bandwagon, so it's discriminatory to stop coddling their delusions of being something they're not.



You could always try not running your mouth.  That would keep you out of trouble just as easily as "coddling delusions"



jcfynx said:


> In short, people make too much of a deal about how to refer to people, especially on Furnternet, where *intersex is just a fetish* anyways.



Troll detected


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> "They" as a gender-neutral pronoun for a single person is only correct in some instances.
> 
> Being vocal about your intersex nature, crossdressing, and using special pronouns, draws attention to you without having to put in any effort. It's a pre-fab identity of a tortured and misunderstood individual for you to slip into. Honestly, in the course of a person's life, what pronoun is used to refer to them is one of the least important things affecting them (this is an acceptable use of the singular "them"), but in public, a lot of intersex and transgender individuals love to fuss over how people refer to them. As soon as someone calls you "she" instead of "shie," you can claim that the world is persecuting you and the monolithic gender dichotomy discriminates against your expression of self. So unfair! Everyone needs to learn about my struggle against wordism.
> 
> ...


 

 So? Them, those, people, person, etc. almost anything is better than the word it.

 People draw attentions to themselves no matter what they do. I'm sorry that by wearing clothes I feel comfortable in draws attention to me. I'm not doing it for that. I'm doing it because I personally enjoy it. So if my style has neon pink leopard print pants or a pink and blue petticoat dress, I personally ENJOY doing such. However, I do understand that there are some people who do it for the attention but do not lump everyone into that category. You aren't doing yourself any good.

 As for the people who freak out over the wrong pronoun, they annoy me. If someone gets it wrong, correct them. Simple as that. If they CONTINUE to do it out of spite, then I believe a person has every right to get pissy. If you mess up, correct yourself. It is pretty simple, no?
 I'm sorry that this world isn't perfect and that no one can pass all the time. I still get called a she/etc. and I correct people. Do I get pissy over it? No. Yea it hurts but I understand I'm not the most masculine of guys -stares at his girl pants-. Doesn't mean you should undermine my feelings at every chance you get. I'm sorry that you feel so threatened by people who wish to define themselves as outside this binary society.

 Also, a transgender person's feelings on their gender are anything BUT delusions. For you to even say that makes me physically ill (that or the third soda I am on). We are what we are. We, as humans, are not limited to our physical selves. If we say we are a female, we expect you to respect us as such, as a HUMAN. If we say we are male, same thing. If we are say we are gender queer and wish to be referred to as something other than he/she and the binary dichotomy, then you do so. If you do not wish to do so, if you do not wish to respect us as human beings, than please move aside. I do not need you belittling me as a person. If you do not wish to respect me, who I am, etc. than GTFO.
 I am sorry that our wishes for basic rights is something you believe we should stop. We just happen to be on the GLB. I'm sorry that some of us are gay, bi, queer, etc.

 I'm sorry that you are offended that we want to be treated as equals and as human beings.


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## jcfynx (Feb 3, 2011)

Goodness! I seem to have struck a nerve. To the Internet debate machine.



skittle said:


> People draw attentions to themselves no matter what they do.



No they don't. Not even _one_ singular attention. I would gather some people can manage to spend a whole day without people noticing them, which I have never once seen while going out with transgender or vocally intersex people.



skittle said:


> I'm sorry that by wearing clothes I feel comfortable in draws attention to me.



Somehow, I do not think you are sorry at all. ]:



skittle said:


> I'm not doing it for that. I'm doing it because I personally enjoy it. So if my style has neon pink leopard print pants or a pink and blue petticoat dress, I personally ENJOY doing such.



So long as you understand that people are going to judge you for dressing poorly and acting strangely, rather than assuming they are persecuting you for your right to wear ill-fitting clothes made for body types that are not yours. (1)



skittle said:


> I'm sorry that you feel so threatened by people who wish to define themselves as outside this binary society.



See (1).



skittle said:


> If we say we are a female, we expect you to respect us as such, as a HUMAN.



Saying you are a female human makes you a female human as much as saying I'm a dragon makes me a dragon.



skittle said:


> If we are say we are gender queer and wish to be referred to as something other than he/she and the binary dichotomy, then you do so.



That is a kindness I pay towards the homeless people at the library who insist I refer to them as the Queen of England or what have you, because they have serious problems. I'm not sure I need to extend that to people who have so few real problems in their lives that they have to invent new forms of persecution.

I do agree that not everyone is going to identify fully with their gender role. But that scarcely justifies saying I must be something else entirely, and that I need to express this by posting pictures of myself all over the Internet of what a kawaii girl ^_^ I can be. Nor does it mean I hook up with a ton of gay and transgender friends to go to the gay clubs and develop this whole identity around what I think I'm _not_. If you want to be you, just be you, not a "transgender genderqueer" or whatever label is popular with the kids these days. I can't conceive of any reasons why transgenders have gone and created a whole culture for themselves other than the need for identity and attention.



skittle said:


> If you do not wish to do so, if you do not wish to respect us as human beings, than please move aside.



Disagreeing with a person hardly equates with not respecting them as people. Those kind of statements reek of a persecution complex.



skittle said:


> I do not need you belittling me as a person. If you do not wish to respect me, who I am, etc. than GTFO.



I would suggest that if you don't want people to take issue with what you do, don't make it your business to tell them things they'll take issue with. Internet rants are only going to make you seem like you need attention.



skittle said:


> I am sorry that our wishes for basic rights is something you believe we should stop.



I wasn't aware that transgender people didn't have basic rights. Everyone has the right to make a (generally) poor attempt at imitating the other gender and be poked fun of when they can't pull it off, which is most of the time. I would fully understand if I didn't get a job because I showed up to the Interview in mascara, a wig, and a falsetto voice. I don't feel my rights have been violated in this case because I could simply _not_ do things that are unattractive.



skittle said:


> We just happen to be on the GLB. I'm sorry that some of us are gay, bi, queer, etc.



Gays have a legitimate claim in that they have to hide who they love. Transgenders have to hide the fact that they want to dress weird and act badly at being a man or lady. It never comes naturally to them. Even persons who are so far into it that they try to legally change their sex have to undergo gender training where they learn to act like what they supposedly _already are_.



skittle said:


> I'm sorry that you are offended that we want to be treated as equals and as human beings.



It's all just part of being a teenager, college student, or adultlescent, whichever you happen to find yourself belonging to. I'm sure someday you'll grow out of it and we can all laugh about this later.


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## Brace (Feb 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Somehow, I do not think you are sorry at all. ]:



Why the fuck would he be you dolt?  Because you want him to feel bad about his preferences and blame him for the fact you're easily put off by people who are different?



jcfynx said:


> Saying you are a female human makes you a female human as much as saying I'm a dragon makes me a dragon.



Horrible analogy built on false premises.  Have you seen the latest scientific research on the subject?  Research which says TG people have the brains of their target genders?  Even discarding that, there's still a problem you haven't addressed, which is that you're pissing off people built like linebackers.  You think that's a good idea just because they're wearing a dress?



jcfynx said:


> I can't conceive of any reasons why transgenders have gone and created a whole culture for themselves other than the need for identity and attention.



A lack of imagination.  How surprising.



jcfynx said:


> Disagreeing with a person hardly equates with not respecting them as people. Those kind of statements reek of a persecution complex.



It does when you disagree with them about a fundamental conviction which stems from personal experience with innate and unchangable conditions of their existence.



jcfynx said:


> I would suggest that if you don't want people to take issue with what you do, don't make it your business to tell them things they'll take issue with. Internet rants are only going to make you seem like you need attention.



Glass houses.



jcfynx said:


> Gays have a legitimate claim in that they have to hide who they love. Transgenders have to hide the fact that they want to dress weird and act badly at being a man or lady. It never comes naturally to them. Even persons who are so far into it that they try to legally change their sex have to undergo gender training where they learn to act like what they supposedly _already are_.



How surprising that artificial gender roles like dress and mannerism aren't conditioned into people who aren't raised as that gender!  Clearly that has something to do with the core transgender experience and therefore your criticism is fully valid /sarcasm

I don't want shit.  I AM a girl.  Just an anatomically incorrect girl who knows more about Judo than clothing.  DEAL WITH IT.



jcfynx said:


> It's all just part of being a teenager, college student, or adultlescent, whichever you happen to find yourself belonging to. I'm sure someday you'll grow out of it and we can all laugh about this later.



Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Aleu (Feb 3, 2011)

ITT people responding to jcfynx derpness.


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## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Goodness! I seem to have struck a nerve. To the Internet debate machine.
> 
> No they don't. Not even _one_ singular attention. I would gather some people can manage to spend a whole day without people noticing them, which I have never once seen while going out with transgender or vocally intersex people.


I have gone out with plenty of transgender people and haven't drawn any attention to them or myself as far as I am aware. You draw attention if you want to however, someone is going to notice you at some point during the day. Ever go to eat somewhere and have someone come to your table and ask you for your order? YOU ARE DRAWING ATTENTION! Thus, it is impossible to go an entire day in public without drawing attention.




jcfynx said:


> Somehow, I do not think you are sorry at all. ]:


 I'm not but, oh well.





jcfynx said:


> So long as you understand that people are going to judge you for dressing poorly and acting strangely, rather than assuming they are persecuting you for your right to wear ill-fitting clothes made for body types that are not yours. (1)


Well no shit people are going to do that. It is my right to wear what I want, no matter what people think. Unless it violates public decency laws. Also, my clothes fit me quite well. They fit my boyfriend nicely too. You just have to go shopping. Isn't that a concept. 




jcfynx said:


> Saying you are a female human makes you a female human as much as saying I'm a dragon makes me a dragon.


 Cause saying something that exists is the same as saying you are something that doesn't. Try again.




jcfynx said:


> That is a kindness I pay towards the homeless people at the library who insist I refer to them as the Queen of England or what have you, because they have serious problems. I'm not sure I need to extend that to people who have so few real problems in their lives that they have to invent new forms of persecution.
> 
> I do agree that not everyone is going to identify fully with their gender role. But that scarcely justifies saying I must be something else entirely, and that I need to express this by posting pictures of myself all over the Internet of what a kawaii girl ^_^ I can be. Nor does it mean I hook up with a ton of gay and transgender friends to go to the gay clubs and develop this whole identity around what I think I'm _not_. If you want to be you, just be you, not a "transgender genderqueer" or whatever label is popular with the kids these days. I can't conceive of any reasons why transgenders have gone and created a whole culture for themselves other than the need for identity and attention.


We're not inventing forms of persecution. We are inventing forms of self. Forms of expressing who we are as people. Discrimination just sadly has to come with that.  
 Why have gays created a whole culture? Why have black, Mexican, Hispanic, etc. created a whole culture to themselves? People want to belong and need to belong. Feeling accepted and being around people you can relate to is human nature. 
Humans have to put labels on things to sort the Us and Them groups. Labels will never go away. When asked to describe yourself how would you do it? With labels. Adjectives are labels too. 



jcfynx said:


> I would suggest that if you don't want people to take issue with what you do, don't make it your business to tell them things they'll take issue with. Internet rants are only going to make you seem like you need attention.


I am sorry that I am going to take issues with people disrespecting me, my friends, and people I associate with. 



jcfynx said:


> I wasn't aware that transgender people didn't have basic rights. Everyone has the right to make a (generally) poor attempt at imitating the other gender and be poked fun of when they can't pull it off, which is most of the time. I would fully understand if I didn't get a job because I showed up to the Interview in mascara, a wig, and a falsetto voice. I don't feel my rights have been violated in this case because I could simply _not_ do things that are unattractive.


I wasn't aware that there are cisgender people who fail at imitating their own gender. I didn't realize ugly people existed. I've known cisgender women and men who looks worse off than some of my transgendered friends.
 Discrimination is discrimination, imo. You don't feel your rights are violated because they aren't. By forcing me to go to work as a female, wear female clothes, etc. is violating my right as a human to live my life as I want. I am not asking to show up to work unprofessionally, no. I am simply asking that I be able to live my life at my job. Sadly, that doesn't happen. Also, I know plenty of transgender men and women who look better than cismen and ciswomen.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html




jcfynx said:


> Gays have a legitimate claim in that they have to hide who they love. Transgenders have to hide the fact that they want to dress weird and act badly at being a man or lady. It never comes naturally to them. Even persons who are so far into it that they try to legally change their sex have to undergo gender training where they learn to act like what they supposedly _already are_.


We have to hide who we are. We have to hide as a gender that we are not. We cannot live our lives as who we are for fear of discrimination, rape, harassment, etc. Same things that GLB people have too. Also, what DEFINES a bad male or female? Please tell me. I would LOVE to hear what you believe to be the definitions of these because you can bet your ass I will find exceptions to EVERY SINGLE ONE. There is no clear cut of a 'good' man or woman or a 'bad' man or woman. There are examples of good or bad PEOPLE.



jcfynx said:


> It's all just part of being a teenager, college student, or adultlescent, whichever you happen to find yourself belonging to. I'm sure someday you'll grow out of it and we can all laugh about this later.


Grow out of it, huh? I've been told this for 11+ years of my life. Let me tell you how well that is working. You don't grow out of being transgendered just like you don't grow out of being gay, lesbian, bi, etc.


----------



## jcfynx (Feb 3, 2011)

Brace said:


> Why the fuck would he be you dolt?



Hey, hey now, buttercup. We are all adults here, no need to be a "Persnickety Pete."



Brace said:


> ...you disagree with them about a fundamental conviction which stems from personal experience with innate and unchangable conditions of their existence.



I am not sure what that means. Could you use smaller words? ]:



Brace said:


> ...you're pissing off people built like linebackers. You think that's a good idea just because they're wearing a dress?



Yes, because linebackers in tutus is hilarious. <:



Brace said:


> How surprising that artificial gender roles like dress and mannerism aren't conditioned into people who aren't raised as that gender!  Clearly that has something to do with the core transgender experience and therefore your criticism is fully valid /sarcasm



If dress and mannerisms are peripheral to the transgender _experience_, is it is known, then why does that seem like the most important part of being transgender to transgender _people_? That is, next to posting pictures of themselves on the Internet and asking people if they "pass."

Having a "female-thinking" mind is completely socially acceptable for men; the clothes and mannerisms are the only thing people take issue with. If those are artificial, then why do they matter to you?



skittle said:


> I'm not [sorry at all] but, oh well.



How can I trust you if you're going to lie to me like that? ]:



skittle said:


> Well no shit people are going to do that. It is my right to wear what I want, no matter what people think.



Nobody would argue you don't have the _right_ to dress like a fool. It's just. You know. People are going to see you as one. Because that's what you're doing.



jcfynx said:


> Saying you are a female human makes you a female human as much as saying I'm a dragon makes me a dragon.





skittle said:


> Cause saying something that exists is the same as saying you are something that doesn't. Try again.



Alright, what if I say I'm a black man, but I am not a black man? I identify with black culture and paint myself black and make an awkward impression of what I think black people act like. I think there are very, very few people who would not find that behavior unattractive, transgender persons included.



skittle said:


> Why have gays created a whole culture? Why have black, Mexican, Hispanic, etc. created a whole culture to themselves? People want to belong and need to belong. Feeling accepted and being around people you can relate to is human nature.



Gays created a culture because they have had legitimate reason to hide themselves from the public sphere. Mexicans distinctly did _not_ create a culture to themselves because their culture comes from _Mexico_, the place of their origin for thousands of years. Not a bar full of people who "identified as Mexican" in the 1970s.



skittle said:


> I've known cisgender women and men who looks worse off than some of my transgendered friends. Discrimination is discrimination, imo.



People don't all stop and stare at an ugly lady. They only stop and stare at the gentleman dressing like an ugly lady. I'm not sure they are the same thing.

I would also add that while the ugly lady was born ugly, the gentleman dressing like one made the choice to do so, and could stop at any moment. We are visual creatures and like things that look nice. Wanting to intentionally make yourself look worse is not a cause to cry persecution.



skittle said:


> You don't feel your rights are violated because they aren't.



If you don't think people have ever felt their rights are violated when they aren't, you have clearly never encountered the American Fundamentalist movement, which manage to be both the majority religion in the country and the most powerful people at the same time as a persecuted minority. I'm sorry, Fundamentalist right, but you can't have it both ways!



skittle said:


> By forcing me to go to work as a female, wear female clothes, etc. is violating my right as a human to live my life as I want. I am not asking to show up to work unprofessionally, no.



I have heard of people who insist on wearing their dragon tail to work, because they are a real, actual dragon. I don't believe these people are having their rights violated because they are not.

Like it or not, being visibly transgender is not professional and makes people uncomfortable. However, putting in the effort to look obviously like either a man or woman is fine.



skittle said:


> Also, what DEFINES a bad male or female? Please tell me.



Someone who looks blatantly like someone trying to be what they're not. I can't explain it, but like porn, "I know it when I see it."



skittle said:


> Grow out of it, huh? I've been told this for 11+ years of my life.



You are twenty years old. Twenty-year olds are always uppity about things that their thirty-year-old selves are going to be embarrassed about later. It's all a part of growing up.


----------



## Brace (Feb 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> I am not sure what that means. Could you use smaller words? ]:



Could you use your brain?  TG people have TG feelings which are permanent, which they don't choose.  They report these feelings to you, at which point you say they're "wrong".  What does "wrong" even mean in this context?  That would be like someone saying "I'm hungry" and you correcting them.



jcfynx said:


> Yes, because linebackers in tutus is hilarious. <:



Is being paralyzed for life hilarious?



jcfynx said:


> If dress and mannerisms are peripheral to the transgender _experience_, is it is known, then why does that seem like the most important part of being transgender to transgender _people_? That is, next to posting pictures of themselves on the Internet and asking people if they "pass."



Because it's necessary in order to assimilate into present day society as their target gender.



jcfynx said:


> Having a "female-thinking" mind is completely socially acceptable for men; the clothes and mannerisms are the only thing people take issue with. If those are artificial, then why do they matter to you?


 
Basically just because more people refer to me as "ma'am" that way.  I'm extraordinarily weird on that count though.  I want to get back into martial arts as soon as I have the time/money/transportation for it.  I have a very high pain tolerance and was comfortable with my male body +/- the constant dysphoria which couldn't be turned off (but could be put out of mind temporarily with enough discipline).  My two biggest motives for transition are to be treated in accordance with my own view of myself, and to have a vagina.  To be honest, if people were all unilaterally 100% cool with referring to me as female and accepting that I'm female, my life would be completely liveable for me even without hormones or SRS.  Although I would be a little bit more wonky from the extra testosterone, would still have psychological problems etc.


----------



## Skittle (Feb 3, 2011)

I'mma let Brace take her parts. Batter up, baby!






jcfynx said:


> How can I trust you if you're going to lie to me like that? ]:


 'Cause



jcfynx said:


> Nobody would argue you don't have the _right_ to dress like a fool. It's just. You know. People are going to see you as one. Because that's what you're doing.


People are always gonna see someone as a fool for doing something. Everyone is everyone's outcast.




jcfynx said:


> Alright, what if I say I'm a black man, but I am not a black man? I identify with black culture and paint myself black and make an awkward impression of what I think black people act like. I think there are very, very few people who would not find that behavior unattractive, transgender persons included.


Do tell me, what do black people act like? Hmmm? Same thing, I can point out every flaw you want with what you say in that regard. Also, if you want to say you are black or identify with black culture, be my guest. There are plenty of 'wiggers' out there. 




jcfynx said:


> Gays created a culture because they have had legitimate reason to hide themselves from the public sphere. Mexicans distinctly did _not_ create a culture to themselves because their culture comes from _Mexico_, the place of their origin for thousands of years. Not a bar full of people who "identified as Mexican" in the 1970s.


 So... Are you saying fear, hate, discrimination, the possibility for physical, mental and emotional harm is not a good reason to stay hidden or create your own culture?
 Swing and a miss. Try again.



jcfynx said:


> People don't all stop and stare at an ugly lady. They only stop and stare at the gentleman dressing like an ugly lady. I'm not sure they are the same thing.


 How do you know that though? I've seen plenty of ciswomen who I thought were men. Whoops. An ugly lady is an ugly lady whether they are born female or not. It's hard to tell unless their dick is flopping around.



jcfynx said:


> I would also add that while the ugly lady was born ugly, the gentleman dressing like one made the choice to do so, and could stop at any moment. We are visual creatures and like things that look nice. Wanting to intentionally make yourself look worse is not a cause to cry persecution.


 Cause we choose to be born transgender. Sorry that we want to try to live as happily as possible. I'd rather be a hideous man than try to live my life as a gorgeous women, wanna know why? Because I'd rather live as happily as possible, ugly or not.



jcfynx said:


> I have heard of people who insist on wearing their dragon tail to work, because they are a real, actual dragon. I don't believe these people are having their rights violated because they are not.
> 
> Like it or not, being visibly transgender is not professional and makes people uncomfortable.
> 
> Someone who looks blatantly like someone trying to be what they're not. I can't explain it, but like porn, "I know it when I see it."


 I am sure you can. Let me tell you. There is a difference between the real and the imagined. Being a 'dragon' is imagined. Being transgendered is a real, I don't want to say problem, but I have no other word for it.  I cannot WAIT for the ordinance in my town to pass to legally protect gender identity and sexual orientation. Being visibly gay isn't 'professional' either but people still wear rainbow bracelets, necklaces, etc. to work. 
Once again. Swing and a miss.



jcfynx said:


> You are twenty years old. Twenty-year olds are always uppity about things that their thirty-year-old selves are going to be embarrassed about later. It's all a part of growing up.


 Being transgender is something I will never be embarrassed about. Keep telling me this will pass, come on. I dare you. It won't, I know it won't. I tried to let it pass for 11+ years of my life and it sure as hell hasn't gone anywhere.


----------



## jcfynx (Feb 3, 2011)

Brace said:


> Because [dressing the part is] necessary in order to assimilate into present day society as their target gender.



Only if you're looking for other people to acknowledge that you feel different. You can feel any way you want and be a feminine-minded man if that suits you. People don't care until you're a man in heels.

And clearly, the heels are _not_ helping you assimilate into society.



Brace said:


> Basically just because more people refer to me as "ma'am."



So, you're saying it's more about other people making an exception for you rather than you being able to think and feel the way you want?



skittle said:


> Batter up, baby!



Oh my gosh! Be gentle with me. I am podgy and small, with few hit points. }:



skittle said:


> People are always gonna see someone as a fool for doing something. Everyone is everyone's outcast.



How are you being uniquely discriminated against if _everyone_ faces the same problem? I do not believe everyone is an outcast. In fact, I believe it is mostly angsty young people who believe themselves to be.

No one understands them. |:



skittle said:


> Do tell me, what do black people act like?



Well you see, it's like this.

Black people. Black people walk like _this_.

But white people.

White people walk like thi----s~!



skittle said:


> Also, if you want to say you are black or identify with black culture, be my guest.



No, being a yellow person who says he is black is wrong. Wrong, wrong! That is not something you should do because it is insulting.



skittle said:


> How do you know that though? I've seen plenty of ciswomen who I thought were men.



What's a ciswoman? That's not even a word. What are you, some sort of wordsmith?



skittle said:


> I am sure you can. Let me tell you. There is a difference between the real and the imagined. Being a 'dragon' is imagined. Being transgendered is a real, I don't want to say problem, but I have no other word for it.



Say that to an otherkin, and I'm sure they will accuse you of being equally closed-minded.



skittle said:


> Being visibly gay isn't 'professional' either but people still wear rainbow bracelets, necklaces, etc. to work.



This is where I disagree. The only way to be visibly gay is to make out with dudes in front of people.

Rainbow bracelets and necklaces are not part of being gay, they're just to make sure everyone knows how much you love penis, in case it had not yet come up in conversation. There is no intrinsic need to wear big signs that let people know how many penises you want in you.

I would also disagree that rainbow bracelets fly in a real, actual workplace populated by adults. At least, I think it would clash with my suit.



skittle said:


> Being transgender is something I will never be embarrassed about. Keep telling me this will pass, come on. I dare you. It won't, I know it won't. I tried to let it pass for 11+ years of my life and it sure as hell hasn't gone anywhere.


 
Then go for it and keep reaching for that rainbow! (Get it, rainbow)


----------



## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Oh my gosh! Be gentle with me. I am podgy and small, with few hit points. }:


 The further you shall fly then! HOME RUN!



jcfynx said:


> How are you being uniquely discriminated against if _everyone_ faces the same problem? I do not believe everyone is an outcast. In fact, I believe it is mostly angsty young people who believe themselves to be.
> 
> No one understands them. |:


Because unlike most people who just get scoffed at, I am denied basic rights. I run the chance of being sexually assaulted, harassed, maimed, killed, etc. for just trying to live my life. Every time I go into the men's restroom, I risk the chance of being 'found out'. Don't tell me to use the women's room either. That is just mental anguish and adding salt to an already festering wound.



jcfynx said:


> Well you see, it's like this.
> 
> Black people. Black people walk like _this_.
> 
> ...


But what about black people who walk like this----s~! and white people who walk like _this_. Or maybe they walk like ThIs~?




jcfynx said:


> No, being a yellow person who says he is black is wrong. Wrong, wrong! That is not something you should do because it is insulting.


 I know plenty of straight men who identify with gay culture. Is that wrong too? Also, ethnicity is a much, MUCH harder defined line than gender is. Note I say ethnicity because race is a social construct too.




jcfynx said:


> What's a ciswoman? That's not even a word. What are you, some sort of wordsmith?


 It is a word. Ciswomen, cisman, cismale, cisfemale. Cis is used as a prefix to describe someone whose mental gender matches their physical sex.



jcfynx said:


> Say that to an otherkin, and I'm sure they will accuse you of being equally closed-minded.


Mhm. Talk to the DSM.



jcfynx said:


> This is where I disagree. The only way to be visibly gay is to make out with dudes in front of people.
> 
> Rainbow bracelets and necklaces are not part of being gay, they're just to make sure everyone knows how much you love penis, in case it had not yet come up in conversation. There is no intrinsic need to wear big signs that let people know how many penises you want in you.
> 
> I would also disagree that rainbow bracelets fly in a real, actual workplace populated by adults. At least, I think it would clash with my suit.


 The only way to be visibly transgender is to openly say it. Anything else is to be making assumptions. I knew a girl who could grow more facial hair than a guy I also knew. Both were cisgendered. Thus, no matter what you say your point is moot. 



jcfynx said:


> Then go for it and keep reaching for that rainbow! (Get it, rainbow)


 I am, I've already got the BIV part! Now to get the ROYG part!


----------



## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Only if you're looking for other people to acknowledge that you feel different. You can feel any way you want and be a feminine-minded man if that suits you. People don't care until you're a man in heels.



I'm not a feminine minded man.  I'm not even especially feminine.  I'm an anatomically incorrect woman, and if I looked the part succesfully, it wouldn't be a matter of being "acknowledged as different"; it would be a matter of being acknowledged as a woman in the same way any other woman is, which is something people do countless numbers of times in a day with no disruption.



jcfynx said:


> And clearly, the heels are _not_ helping you assimilate into society.



Fuck heels.  I wear boots.  It's only proper for riding my motorcycle.



jcfynx said:


> So, you're saying it's more about other people making an exception for you rather than you being able to think and feel the way you want?



They're not exclusive.  I've been able to think however I want for a while now.  As for feeling how I want, no, what I want has nothing to do with my TG feelings.  Whether I want them or not, they're there.  The only thing I haven't had is a recognition of my feelings by other people, even though said feelings have large and far-reaching implications for my life.  Therefore that's what I focus on.  I don't need other people to do anything to let me think the way I want to think, and I don't need any particular arrangement at all to feel transgender because that happens in 100% of circumstances.  I can't be acknowledged as female, however, unless other people acknowledge me as female.  That's a real barrier.


----------



## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> The further you shall fly then! HOME RUN!



Why would you hurt me? I just want to love everyone. }:



skittle said:


> Because unlike most people who just get scoffed at, I am denied basic rights.



The rights of men in lady clothes are the same as anyone else's. No court will ever rule against you "because you dress funny."



skittle said:


> Every time I go into the men's restroom, I risk the chance of being 'found out'. Don't tell me to use the women's room either. That is just mental anguish and adding salt to an already festering wound.



If choice of restroom is your greatest life problem, then sister, I would be very much happy to live your life.



skittle said:


> But what about black people who walk like this----s~!



No, no. No black person has ever walked like this----s~. Ever. That would be stupid. You'd have to punch them in the butt.



skittle said:


> I know plenty of straight men who identify with gay culture. Is that wrong too?



Not the same thing. Straight men who say they're gay are doing something wrong. ):

People with penises who tell people they have vaginas are probably going to make some people sad, too, through the same sort of false expectations.



skittle said:


> Also, ethnicity is a much, MUCH harder defined line than gender is.



Ethnicity is pretty easy. Ethnicity is where your ancestors are from. If you are from Mexico, you are Mexican.

Mixed-race persons are still rare and tend to take after whichever parent is more dominant in the family.

The only race that thinks it is difficult to define ethnicity are white people. This has been shown in studies. Black people know they're black and Chinese know they're Chinese, but white people are, as always, happy to chime in too. They are cute that way. I want to squeeze them!



skittle said:


> Note I say ethnicity because race is a social construct too.



So is _goodness,_ yet it still has value.



skittle said:


> [Cisgender is a word.



Firefox underlines it in red with one of those squiggly lines, and Dictionary.com is drawing a blank. I'm calling shenanigans on this one.



skittle said:


> Talk to the DSM.



Actually, the DSM defined homosexuality as a disorder until the nineties.




skittle said:


> The only way to be visibly transgender is to openly say it. Anything else is to be making assumptions.



I agree that this is correct approximately one tenth of one percent of the time. We all make assumptions because if you don't make obvious assumptions on the microscopic chance they can be wrong you are either a silly or very young person.



skittle said:


> I am, I've already got the BIV part! Now to get the ROYG part!



I am so proud of you! {: Come here, let's hug.

Come on. Man trust hug!



Brace said:


> I'm an anatomically incorrect woman



Even among psychologists, it is still a matter of debate whether transgendered persons are anatomically-correct or whether they have a mental disorder. It is better to say "I am someone with a male body who identifies as a woman."



Brace said:


> and if I looked the part succesfully, it wouldn't be a matter of being "acknowledged as different"; it would be a matter of being acknowledged as a woman in the same way any other woman is, which is something people do countless numbers of times in a day with no disruption.



This is possibly because they are women, and not men trying to convince us they they are, actually, also women.



Brace said:


> Fuck heels.  I wear boots.  It's only proper for riding my motorcycle.



That's a shame. Heels are sexy. )':



Brace said:


> I can't be acknowledged as female, however, unless other people acknowledge me as female.  That's a real barrier.


 
You could try wearing a sign that says "actually a lady." Have you tried that? That is my suggestion.


----------



## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Why would you hurt me? I just want to love everyone. }:


 Obviously not.




jcfynx said:


> The rights of men in lady clothes are the same as anyone else's. No court will ever rule against you "because you dress funny."


 The rights of a woman with a male body and vice-versa are sadly, not the same as everyone else's.




jcfynx said:


> If choice of restroom is your greatest life problem, then brother, I would be very much happy to live your life.


Fix'd. Also, it isn't the greatest problem in my life but it is a problem. I shouldn't have to go take a piss while fearing for my well-being.



jcfynx said:


> No, no. No black person has ever walked like this----s~. Ever. That would be stupid. You'd have to punch them in the butt.


 I HAVE THIS TO SAY ABOUT THAT!
 >:C



jcfynx said:


> Not the same thing. Straight men who say they're gay are doing something wrong. ):


 They aren't saying they are gay. They are just associating with gay men. 



jcfynx said:


> People with penises who tell people they have vaginas are probably going to make some people sad, too, through the same sort of false expectations.


 Only if they are trying to get into their pants. Where do you draw the line though? Tell someone you are trans and have the possiblity of being beaten up, murdered, etc. or wait until you get home with them and risk the same thing? It's not that black/white.



jcfynx said:


> Ethnicity is pretty easy. Ethnicity is where your ancestors are from. If you are from Mexico, you are Mexican.
> 
> Mixed-race persons are still rare and tend to take after whichever parent is more dominant in the family.
> 
> The only race that thinks it is difficult to define ethnicity are white people. This has been shown in studies. Black people know they're black and Chinese know they're Chinese, but white people are, as always, happy to chime in too. They are cute that way. I want to squeeze them!


 Ethnicity =/= race. You know that, right?



jcfynx said:


> Firefox underlines it in red with one of those squiggly lines, and Dictionary.com is drawing a blank. I'm calling shenanigans on this one.


*Cisgender* is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.
 Not transgender; identifying with the same social gender as most people with the same biological sex  


 Learn2Google.



jcfynx said:


> Actually, the DSM defined homosexuality as a disorder until the nineties.


 Maybe it will eventually take being transgender out. Who knows? Just letting you know being transgender is legit.




jcfynx said:


> I agree that this is correct approximately one tenth of one percent of the time. We all make assumptions because if you don't make obvious assumptions on the microscopic chance they can be wrong you are either a silly or very young person.


 I don't make assumptions because they make an ass out of you and me.
 They are also incredibly rude.



jcfynx said:


> I am so proud of you! {: Come here, let's hug.
> 
> Come on. Man trust hug!.


 Touch me and I will maim you until you are an unidentifiable hunk of raw meat.

Also, Brace went to sleep so if this thread isn't locked by tomorrow I am sure she will respond.

Though I am gonna take this one on for her.


jcfynx said:


> This is possibly because they are women, and not men trying to convince us they they are, actually, also women.


How do you DEFINE a man/woman?


----------



## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Ethnicity is pretty easy. Ethnicity is where your ancestors are from. If you are from Mexico, you are Mexican.


I think you're mixed up.
Ethnicity = what races make up your bloodline
Nationality = where you were born, therefore which country represents you

For example, I am of Filipino and Hispanic blood, but I am an American because I was born and raised here in the states.


----------



## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> I think you're mixed up.
> Ethnicity = what races make up your bloodline
> Nationality = where you were born, therefore which country represents you
> 
> For example, I am of Filipino and Hispanic blood, but I am an American because I was born and raised here in the states.


 
Oh, gosh! I get words mixed up sometimes. You are good at fixing them.

So you're ethnically Filipino and Latina (it is "Latina, right?) but nationally American?


----------



## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Oh, gosh! I get words mixed up sometimes. You are good at fixing them.
> 
> So you're ethnically Filipino and Latina (it is "Latina, right?) but nationally American?


Technically, it's "Filipina" and "Latina", but yes. That is correct.


----------



## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> The rights of a woman with a male body and vice-versa are sadly, not the same as everyone else's.



I am still not sure what court would ever say it's okay to hurt a crossdresser because they look funny and are weird. I am of the mind that there is _none_ in the Real World.




skittle said:


> I shouldn't have to go take a piss while fearing for my well-being.



I'm not sure that the people sharing a bathroom with you would be happy knowing you have the wrong junk for their trunk.



skittle said:


> Ethnicity =/= race. You know that, right?



;~; Stop making fun of my Engrish!



skittle said:


> *Cisgender* is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.
> 
> Learn2Google.



According to leading dictionary site Merriam-Webster.com:

"cisgender

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

1. suspender
2. cisterna"



skittle said:


> Maybe it will eventually take being transgender out. Who knows? Just letting you know being transgender is legit.



Otherkin tell me the same thing. I am never sure which angry group of people I am supposed to be agreeing with anymore. ):



skittle said:


> I don't make assumptions because they make an ass out of you and me.
> They are also incredibly rude.



Everyone makes assumptions, whether they are consciously aware of it or not. It is built into human nature. Not even a Tibetan monk could completely stop making assumptions.

There are plenty of people who _say_ they don't make assumptions, but what they mean is, "I try not to make assumptions."



skittle said:


> Touch me and I will maim you until you are an unidentifiable hunk of raw meat.



What do you know? That happens to be my fetish. :3c



skittle said:


> Also, Brace went to sleep so if this thread isn't locked by tomorrow I am sure she will respond. Though I am gonna take this one on for her.



And now you're double-teaming me? It just gets better and better. :3c~~



skittle said:


> How do you DEFINE a man/woman?


 
A man is a male human.

A woman is a female human. ]:

According to wikipedia, being "female" can be defined as:

"Female (â™€) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, which produces non-mobile ova (egg cells)."

And you know you can trust Wikipedia.


----------



## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> I am still not sure what court would ever say it's okay to hurt a crossdresser because they look funny and are weird. I am of the mind that there is _none_ in the Real World.


 Cross-dresser =/= transgender. Try again.



jcfynx said:


> I'm not sure that the people sharing a bathroom with you would be happy knowing you have the wrong junk for their trunk.


I'm sure no one needs to know what is in my pants. I honestly hate gendered bathrooms.



jcfynx said:


> ;~; Stop making fun of my Engrish!


Never.



jcfynx said:


> According to leading dictionary site Merriam-Webster.com:
> 
> "cisgender
> 
> ...


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define:+cisgender




jcfynx said:


> Otherkin tell me the same thing. I am never sure which angry group of people I am supposed to be agreeing with anymore. ):


I'm sorry that you keep grouping transgender people in the otherkin.



jcfynx said:


> Everyone makes assumptions, whether they are consciously aware of it or not. It is built into human nature. Not even a Tibetan monk could completely stop making assumptions.
> 
> There are plenty of people who _say_ they don't make assumptions, but what they mean is, "I try not to make assumptions."


Thus your assumptions can be massively wrong. Unless you take someone's clothes off, you don't know if they are trans or not. Even then, you may never know. A lot of trans people live 'stealth' and do it amazingly.



jcfynx said:


> What do you know? That happens to be my fetish. :3c


 Too bad you can't get off once you are dead.



jcfynx said:


> And now you're double-teaming me? It just gets better and better. :3c~~


Oh murr.




jcfynx said:


> A man is a male human.
> 
> A woman is a female human. ]:
> 
> ...


 What defines a male/female human? Also, what about women who are infertile or cannot produce eggs? Guess they aren't female, huh?


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Cross-dresser =/= transgender. Try again.


Why are you bothering? Do you realize jcfynx is just being a derpy troll?


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Why are you bothering? Do you realize jcfynx is just being a derpy troll?


 Because I'm bored.
Plus, great practice for the real world.


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Why are you bothering? Do you realize jcfynx is just being a derpy troll?


 
You may not believe it, but I really, honestly don't believe that transgender is a _thing_. This is actually a belief shared by many, many people. Probably more people than not.

I'm not sure how trying to express my opinion in what I think is a fairly measured and reasonable way is trolling, but I'm sorry if I've given you that impression. \:


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Because I'm bored.
> Plus, great practice for the real world.


The real world sucks.


jcfynx said:


> You may not believe it, but I really, honestly don't believe that transgender is a _thing_. This is actually a belief shared by many, many people. Probably more people than not.


Well that's your opinion. It is respected, by me at least, though I do not believe that you quite understand.


> I'm not sure how trying to express my opinion in what I think is a fairly measured and reasonable way is trolling, but I'm sorry if I've given you that impression. \:


Don't apologize; it's just the way you're responding to skittle that leaves many to believe that you're just being silly.


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> The real world sucks.
> Well that's your opinion. It is respected, by me at least, though I do not believe that you quite understand.
> Don't apologize; it's just the way you're responding to skittle that leaves many to believe that you're just being silly.


 I know the real world sucks. I have to actually engage myself with idiots like this. Bleck.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> I know the real world sucks. I have to actually engage myself with idiots like this. Bleck.


jcfynx is not an idiot. He's just a dorky Japanese dude. :V


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> jcfynx is not an idiot. He's just a dorky Japanese dude. :V


 There is a difference?


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> There is a difference?


Shhhhhh...it's a secret. :V And I'll have to know I've met several intelligent, dorky Japanese dudes.

A shame they were all gay, though.


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Shhhhhh...it's a secret. :V And I'll have to know I've met several intelligent, dorky Japanese dudes.
> 
> A shame they were all gay, though.


 :3c Were they now?
Are they single perhaps? Always room for a hot Asian in a relationship.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> :3c Were they now?
> Are they single perhaps? Always room for a hot Asian in a relationship.


Nope; they were all dating each other in some weird way. Fuck buddies, y'know.


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Nope; they were all dating each other in some weird way. Fuck buddies, y'know.


 .....
Brb, getting a nosebleed and fapping.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> .....
> Brb, getting a nosebleed and fapping.


I'll join you. >> *sickfuuuuuuck*


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Always room for a hot Asian in a relationship.



Positive racism is still racism. }:


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> I'll join you. >> *sickfuuuuuuck*


 Everyone loves hot gay Asians.

Unless they are creepy stalking your boyfriend.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Everyone loves hot gay Asians.
> 
> Unless they are creepy stalking your boyfriend.


I have no boyfriend. Therefore I love hot gay asians. NOW SOME EXPLAIN TO ME:

Why the fuck do people use "Shi" or "Hir"? That's dumb, imo.


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> I have no boyfriend. Therefore I love hot gay asians. NOW SOME EXPLAIN TO ME:
> 
> Why the fuck do people use "Shi" or "Hir"? That's dumb, imo.


 It's a rebellion against the gender binary and an attempt to proclaim oneself outside of it.
Same with Xe/ze/etc.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> It's a rebellion against the gender binary and an attempt to proclaim oneself outside of it.
> Same with Xe/ze/etc.


Who exactly came up with these words?


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Who exactly came up with these words?


 People.
While I personally find them silly sounding, whatever you want. I'll do my best. Haha.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> People.
> While I personally find them silly sounding, whatever you want. I'll do my best. Haha.


Figures that the answer would just be "people". Stupid people. >:[


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Figures that the answer would just be "people". Stupid people. >:[


 Hahaha.
Can you come up with something better?


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Hahaha.
> Can you come up with something better?


No; although I really am curious as to how that whole thing started.


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> No; although I really am curious as to how that whole thing started.


 I honestly have no idea.
TO GOOGLE
http://illinois.edu/db/view/25/31097


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> I honestly have no idea.
> TO GOOGLE
> http://illinois.edu/db/view/25/31097


Hm. Barely made sense, but it kind of did at the same time. I personally just think it's pointless; one should be referred to, imo, as "he" or she" depending on what they look like. I honestly wish I was more boyish so people would call me "he".


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Hm. Barely made sense, but it kind of did at the same time. I personally just think it's pointless; one should be referred to, imo, as "he" or she" depending on what they look like. I honestly wish I was more boyish so people would call me "he".


 What if they are neither or what to be referred to as neither?
I know an it.


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> What if they are neither or what to be referred to as neither?
> I know an it.


Then I will refer to them as "it". But unless they specify, I just go with what they look like.


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## Wyldfyre (Feb 4, 2011)

Gaz said:


> Then I will refer to them as "it". But unless they specify, I just go with what they look like.


 I tend to get referred to as "it" until I speak, quite often. I dun like it :<


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Wyldfyre said:


> I tend to get referred to as "it" until I speak, quite often. I dun like it :<


 I do too. It's extremely offensive. However there are people who have taken it as their pronoun of choice.


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## Adelio Altomar (Feb 4, 2011)

I think the better question is _why_ do people keep trying to use these stupid abominations among an already beaten and heavily mistreated language?


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Adelio Altomar said:


> I think the better question is _why_ do people keep trying to use these stupid abominations among an already beaten and heavily mistreated language?


 Language evolves. Simple as that.
Not to mention the fact that the English language forces a gender binary as well as a male dominated one. He and Man have become all encompassing terms when it comes to talking about a group because constantly saying she/he him/her is clunky. Not to mention, still excludes those outside of the binary.


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## Adelio Altomar (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Language evolves. Simple as that.
> Not to mention the fact that the English language forces a gender binary as well as a male dominated one. He and Man have become all encompassing terms when it comes to talking about a group because constantly saying she/he him/her is clunky. Not to mention, still excludes those outside of the binary.


 
That was a rhetorical question. Really, I just think adding this 'herm' shit is pretty stupid and confusing as fuck. It just slows down the reading of an otherwise good story and reading material like that just begs for an eye roll or two.


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Adelio Altomar said:


> That was a rhetorical question. Really, I just think adding this 'herm' shit is pretty stupid and confusing as fuck. It just slows down the reading of an otherwise good story and reading material like that just begs for an eye roll or two.


 That is your personal opinion however, herms do not fit into the typical male/female dichotomy, do they?


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## Wyldfyre (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> That is your personal opinion however, herms do not fit into the typical male/female dichotomy, do they?


 Nor androgynes


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

Wyldfyre said:


> Nor androgynes


 Nor does most of the transgender umbrella. :3c


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## Wyldfyre (Feb 4, 2011)

skittle said:


> Nor does most of the transgender umbrella. :3c


 CONFUSING GROUP IS CONFUSING x3


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Even among psychologists, it is still a matter of debate whether transgendered persons are anatomically-correct or whether they have a mental disorder. It is better to say "I am someone with a male body who identifies as a woman."



Psychologists aren't exactly well known for following the scientific method to the letter.  You might as well say "Even among philosophers of mind".  Meanwhile, in SCIENCEVILLE...



jcfynx said:


> This is possibly because they are women, and not men trying to convince us they they are, actually, also women.



Look up "question begging".  But either way you can't read, since I was talking about MtF's who succesfully pass, through modification of behavior/dress to meet social expectations for women.  Meaning there's no "you're actually a man", because they're VIEWED AS WOMEN.



jcfynx said:


> That's a shame. Heels are sexy. )':



Heels are retarded, useless and uncomfortable.  Same thing as suits.  Pretty much all formal wear seems like it was designed solely to be a pain in the ass to wear and render the user borderline immobile.  Probably as a sign of class, like "hey poor people, look at me, I'm rich enough I don't have to be bound by practicality!"



jcfynx said:


> You could try wearing a sign that says "actually a lady." Have you tried that? That is my suggestion.



I was actually thinking of getting a handgun

3 pages late, or something


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Brace said:


> Psychologists aren't exactly well known for following the scientific method to the letter.  You might as well say "Even among philosophers of mind".



That psychology isn't a "real science" is an unfair stereotype. Psychology may be a "soft science" in that it isn't made up of equations and formula, but that in no way devalues it as a practice.

It certainly can't be put in the same boat as philosophy, which is not scientific at all.



Brace said:


> you can't read



Now, that was just uncalled for. ]:



Brace said:


> Pretty much all formal wear seems like it was designed solely to be a pain in the ass to wear and render the user borderline immobile.  Probably as a sign of class, like "hey poor people, look at me, I'm rich enough I don't have to be bound by practicality!"



That's just something poor people say to make themselves feel better about not getting to dress nicely.

People in suits don't generally about how bad it is to be seen as a professional.



Brace said:


> I was actually thinking of getting a handgun



So angry, so violent. Maybe it's all that testosterone talking. \:


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## Skittle (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> That's just something poor people say to make themselves feel better about not getting to dress nicely.
> 
> People in suits don't generally about how bad it is to be seen as a professional.


Nope. P. sure extremely fancy dress clothes are uncomfortable. Yes, I've had to wear them. No I did not enjoy it.
Though I do like strutting around in heels. -fag-




jcfynx said:


> So angry, so violent. Maybe it's all that testosterone talking. \:


Nah, pretty sure it is all the idiots talking!

Also, Brace, that is a sexy ass gun.


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> That psychology isn't a "real science" is an unfair stereotype. Psychology may be a "soft science" in that it isn't made up of equations and formula, but that in no way devalues it as a practice.



Yes it does.  It's not so much the lack of clarity (although that alone devalues it A LOT), but the utter lack of interest in making testable statements, as well as the constant attempts psychologists make to assert psychology as some sort of autonomous discipline not subject to the scrutiny of other professionals.  To the extent psychology is substantive at all, it is:

1. Interdisciplinary (IE, no longer "pure" psychology)
2. Falsifiable and specific (IE, "quantity of somatostatin expressing neurons in the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis correspond to manifestations of transgender behavior/identity" rather than "did something good, bad, or neutral happened to you in childhood?  If so do I have a theory for you!"



jcfynx said:


> It certainly can't be put in the same boat as philosophy, which is not scientific at all.



It absolutely can.  Both disciplines, to the extent they're "pure", are equally metaphysical and make equally untestable statements.



jcfynx said:


> Now, that was just uncalled for. ]:



It's also true so who cares.  Besides, you crossed a major line a while ago, somewhere near the beginning of this conversation.



jcfynx said:


> That's just something poor people say to make themselves feel better about not getting to dress nicely.



I have a $500 custom tailored suit and would look nice in it... if I wanted to present as male.



jcfynx said:


> People in suits don't generally about how bad it is to be seen as a professional.



Most of the Anarchists I've met wear suits /humorousaside



jcfynx said:


> So angry, so violent. Maybe it's all that testosterone talking. \:



Actually no, like I said, you just crossed a line.  Although testosterone does help with aggression I found out, but I don't have as much in me now, so it's more like a force of habit thing than a present chemical influence thing.



skittle said:


> Also, Brace, that is a sexy ass gun.


 
 Pink Sig Sauer ftw!

Edit: OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG ^_^

HELLO KITTY PINK SIG SAUER :3 :3 :3

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Brace said:


> I have a $500 custom tailored suit and would look nice in it... if I wanted to present as male.



I am so proud of you. {:



Brace said:


> Actually no, like I said, you just crossed a line.



Like constantly threatening violence and insulting people who disagree with you isn't crossing a line...I see how it is. \: Respect and tolerance for everyone who agrees with you.

I never said I thought transgenders were unsound or creepy. All I've said in this thread is that I wish more of them would be _good_ enough at it that they don't look like men in dresses.

If they could "pull it off," there wouldn't be a problem with being discriminated against in public.

That, and getting back to the actual topic, "shie" sounds really clunky and is not ever going to catch on outside of transgenders themselves.


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Like constantly threatening violence and insulting people who disagree with you isn't crossing a line...I see how it is. \: Respect and tolerance for everyone who agrees with you.



You did more than disagree with me on just some issue.  You told me that an essential part of my existence is invalid.



jcfynx said:


> I never said I thought transgenders were unsound or creepy. All I've said in this thread is that I wish more of them would be _good_ enough at it that they don't look like men in dresses.



No, you said that all of them were men in dresses, that the decision to try and live as one's target gender is invalid, and that at their core TG people aren't their target gender but rather their birth gender.



jcfynx said:


> If they could "pull it off," there wouldn't be a problem with being discriminated against in public.



True.  But then, this is one of the things you've been complaining about as well.  If TG people don't dress the part, you get angry because they're not trying hard enough.  If they do, you get angry because they're perpetuating artificial gender roles.  Just one more case of doublethink from the anti-TG crowd.


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Brace said:


> You did more than disagree with me on just some issue.  You told me that an essential part of my existence is invalid.



Does it really matter what I think? I'm just some person on the Internet. I don't think you happen to particularly like me, so why is my opinion on this important to you?



Brace said:


> No, you said that all of them were men in dresses



If you define a man as a person who was born with a man's body, then yes, my statement is correct.

If you define a man as a person with a particular sort of brain, than I would be incorrect.

I guess we differ on what our definition of a "man" is.



Brace said:


> If TG people don't dress the part, you get angry because they're not trying hard enough.



Not true; I don't get angry, I just think it looks really stupid. Especially with male-to-female, because they tend to make outrageous clothing choices that no woman would ever make. Female-to-male transgenders tend to fare a lot better because they're happy with a t-shirt and jeans.



Brace said:


> If they do, you get angry because they're perpetuating artificial gender roles.  Just one more case of doublethink from the anti-TG crowd.


 
This assumes all people who disagree with you are in the same like-minded camp. I realize that, to an extent, society tempers the way a person's gender role in life plays out. If you can be a chill person who happens to look like my friend Steve under all that makeup, but can otherwise be a hot chick, then hey, more power to you. You're ascribing a lot of feelings to me that I don't think I've expressed because of negative experiences you've had in the past, or perhaps have heard about other people having and are afraid that you'll have in the future.

I hope that someday you can learn to be even-tempered enough to not feel persecuted every time someone disagrees with you, because I bet you're a really cool person.


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Does it really matter what I think? I'm just some person on the Internet. I don't think you happen to particularly like me, so why is my opinion on this important to you?



Really?  You only exist on the internet?  Well even if that were true, you're still spreading your filth around and someone else is likely to pick it up.



jcfynx said:


> If you define a man as a person who was born with a man's body, then yes, my statement is correct.
> 
> If you define a man as a person with a particular sort of brain, than I would be incorrect.
> 
> I guess we differ on what our definition of a "man" is.



This may be the first reasonable thing you've said all discussion.  My definition is based on the second, of course.  It also seems the preferable definition of the two as it is less likely to hurt feelings while still being an equally valid definition.



jcfynx said:


> Not true; I don't get angry, I just think it looks really stupid. Especially with male-to-female, because they tend to make outrageous clothing choices that no woman would ever make. Female-to-male transgenders tend to fare a lot better because they're happy with a t-shirt and jeans.



I'm happy with a t-shirt and jeans myself.


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Brace said:


> Really? You only exist on the internet?  Well even if that were true, you're still spreading your filth around and someone else is likely to pick it up.



I'm sorry. I was wrong. I meant to say, "to you, I am just some person you've seen on the Internet once." If there was some confusion there, I apologize. I didn't mean to give you the impression I did not exist in real space. ):

I will also have you know that I've been told I have rather lovely filth.



Brace said:


> I'm happy with a t-shirt and jeans myself.



Pics. :3c


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Pics. :3c


 
Ok, maybe not _that_ happy


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## jcfynx (Feb 4, 2011)

Come on, babes.

Let's just kiss and make up. :d


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## Conker (Feb 4, 2011)

OT: I don't even know how half of those "pronouns" are pronounced 

OT: This whole thread was amusing as hell, and it reminded me of Mr. Garrison from South Park :3


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

Conker said:


> OT: I don't even know how half of those "pronouns" are pronounced
> 
> OT: This whole thread was amusing as hell, and it reminded me of Mr. Garrison from South Park :3


 
Non-functioning brain detected...


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## Monster. (Feb 4, 2011)

Wyldfyre said:


> I tend to get referred to as "it" until I speak, quite often. I dun like it :<





skittle said:


> I do too. It's extremely offensive. However there are people who have taken it as their pronoun of choice.


I'm sorry, dearest ones. :C I will happily refer to you however you'd like to be referred as.



jcfynx said:


> Come on, babes.
> 
> Let's just kiss and make out. :d


Fix'd that for ya.


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## Conker (Feb 4, 2011)

Brace said:


> Non-functioning brain detected...


 Are you upset because I'm  not sure how to pronounce Shi, Hir, or Xe or because I think of many of you as I do Mr. Garrison?


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

Conker said:


> Are you upset because I'm  not sure how to pronounce Shi, Hir, or Xe or because I think of many of you as I do Mr. Garrison?


 
All of those things make you less than exceptional, but the latter is the only one that really upsets me.  I mean, here's reality.  Hi.  It's over here.  Yet apparently you need pop culture as a lens to interpret it, and in this case "interpet it" is more like "substitute for it".  Did television teach you how to breath as well?  No of course not then you would have drowned after watching Spongebob


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## Conker (Feb 4, 2011)

Brace said:


> All of those things make you less than exceptional, but the latter is the only one that really upsets me.  I mean, here's reality.  Hi.  It's over here.  Yet apparently you need pop culture as a lens to interpret it, and in this case "interpet it" is more like "substitute for it".  Did television teach you how to breath as well?


 Finding parallels between trans members here and the way a fictional character acts isn't really "interpreting." I don't think any of you are as fucked up as Mr. Garrison, but some of the things trans members have said strongly remind me of that character.


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## Brace (Feb 4, 2011)

You're still comparing transgender people to an offensive caricature.  It would be like comparing black people to Memin Penguin.


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## Azure (Feb 4, 2011)

This thread is a really tiring read, when all OP had to do was consult a bloody grammar handbook.


----------

