# Any other programmers?



## Rakiao (Feb 17, 2009)

Any other programmers out there? Just asking because it seems that almost every one here is just into hardware.


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## ToeClaws (Feb 17, 2009)

Used to be C/C++ and Visual Basic, but stopped doing it in the mid 90's.


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## WarMocK (Feb 17, 2009)

I programmed some GUIs and tools in tcl/tk. Does that count, too?


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## net-cat (Feb 17, 2009)

```
library IEEE;
use IEEE.std_logic_1164.all;

entity no is
    port
    (
        clk : in std_logic;
        reset : in std_logic;
        output : out std_logic_vector(7 downto 0)
    );
end no;

architecture gtfo of no is
    signal select : std_logic;
begin
    process ( clk )
    begin
        if rising_edge(clk) then
            if reset = '1' then
                sel <= '0';
            else
                sel <= not sel;
            end if;
        end if;
    end process;

    output(0) <= sel;
    output(7 downto 1) <= "0100111";
end gtfo;
```


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## Pi (Feb 17, 2009)

Off the top of my head, in approximate order of proficiency:
perl, ruby, c, bourne shell, common lisp, java, verilog, python, awk, erlang, haskell.

I'm sure there's a few that I've missed.


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## Runefox (Feb 17, 2009)

About as far into programming as I go is/was Visual Basic. I did have a short foray into C#, but that didn't really go anywhere.

For scripting, I can do a bit of PHP, MS-DOS batch (surprisingly powerful even today), and that's really about it. I wouldn't think XHTML counts.

I can, however, look through pretty much any kind of high-level code and hack it, but that's not anything special.


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## net-cat (Feb 17, 2009)

Free internet cookie to the first person who can figure out what my code is supposed to be and do.


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## Rayne (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm a (terrible) programmer.


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## Pi (Feb 17, 2009)

net-cat said:


> Free internet cookie to the first person who can figure out what my code is supposed to be and do.



I recognize it as VHDL, but I'm not familiar enough with the syntax to get it.


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## net-cat (Feb 17, 2009)

Pi said:


> I recognize it as VHDL, but I'm not familiar enough with the syntax to get it.


That gets you half of an internet cookie!


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## Gestinatio (Feb 17, 2009)

I can write AS2 and a bit of AS3... does that count?


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## SnowFox (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm not really much good at anything, but I started with C, then did some assembly stuff for PIC chips, then javascript, a very tiny bit of php, and perl



net-cat said:


> ```
> library IEEE;
> use IEEE.std_logic_1164.all;
> 
> ...



oh, and a couple of months of VHDL too, if that really counts as "programming".

I don't really get the purpose of it... does it just toggle bit 0 of the output between 1 and 0 on the clock input, while the rest of the bits just stay at 0100111 unless reset is at 1? :?

If my notes weren't in a cupboard behind some draws that the key broke to I'd go read up on it.


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## Koda (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm a .NET developer, websites and applications. 

I also have experience in C++/JAVA and PHP for my second most fluent languages.


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## net-cat (Feb 17, 2009)

SnowFox said:


> oh, and a couple of months of VHDL too, if that really counts as "programming".
> 
> I don't really get the purpose of it... does it just toggle bit 0 of the output between 1 and 0 on the clock input, while the rest of the bits just stay at 0100111 unless reset is at 1? :?


*hands you an internet cookie and an ASCII table*


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## Rakiao (Feb 17, 2009)

C++
Learning php(got some books)
going to a school funded java camp this summer

For my grade and age thats alot.


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## PeppermintRoo (Feb 17, 2009)

Programming is a lifestyle for me.  

Despite my affinity for Unix and general distrust for most closed source software, I've actually fallen into a position as a C# developer.  I work for a virtualization software company, and so far I find it adequately fulfilling.

Besides that, I write bash scripts on (literally) a daily basis for both personal and business purposes.  (Even if I have to work in Windows, I still do everything I can in Cygwin.  Every Windows box I touch gets Cygwin, Console2, and open sshd.)  

I also do bits and pieces of GTK programming in C on the side; I've not made any contributions to open source projects yet, but mostly just do minor tweaks in the programs I personally use.  

I write Javascript a bit here and there in combination with greasemonkey to modify the sites I frequent most.  I use it to get rid of flash advertisements, banners, or any kind of section of a site that annoys me, but will also sometimes add things.  When boredom has struck, I've also applied said tools to defacing sites in really pointless but personally amusing ways.

Programming is something I just can't seem to get bored of.


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## Eevee (Feb 17, 2009)

why does everyone go for php and java?  those are like the worst languages in the world.


mostly perl, python, and javascript nowadays, but I can find my way around in a decent list of languages.

and for the sake of exposure I'm (gradually) going through Project Euler problems and trying to do them all in a different language: http://git.veekun.com/?p=project-euler.git;a=tree;f=heteroglot;hb=HEAD


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## Rayne (Feb 17, 2009)

Eevee said:


> and for the sake of exposure I'm (gradually) going through Project Euler problems and trying to do them all in a different language: http://git.veekun.com/?p=project-euler.git;a=tree;f=heteroglot;hb=HEAD



I did the first couple of those problems awhile back. Never thought of attempting each one in a different language, though. How's that working out for you?


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## Runefox (Feb 17, 2009)

For me, PHP (and Perl, to a much smaller degree) was mostly out of necessity, as I began as a hacker and now I can code based on what I've learned. I'm nowhere nearly good enough to write anything of real value. I'd imagine that most of the people using PHP right now in lieu of other languages would either have started in the same boat as me, or just went with the flow of pretty much every major web app out there (like, say, *vBulletin*).


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## Koda (Feb 17, 2009)

Just because FA uses Python, doesn't make it the best language in the world. Its a matter of what you're doing with your language.

Personally, I hate Python, simply because of its goony syntax. Just a preference. I mean, I really don't like VB that much either for similar reason, but I still use it.. a lot. It all comes down to what your first coding experience was like I guess. *shrug* I learned on VB6 and then JAVA. Which I guess is why I prefer C# 

At work, we use .NET for web development and that seems very well suited for what we do; integrating processes/applications with web (internet retailer). Its quick, and incredibly easy to get started in. And advanced stuff isn't all that scary once you're familiar with the language.


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## Aurali (Feb 17, 2009)

Order of Proficiency
C++
Actionscript 2 and 3
C#
torque script
Perl <3
DXD9 script
Java
PHP
I guess you can say Javascript too. since other people did.


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## Rakiao (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm a hacker in training 

A hacker, not a cracker.


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## Pi (Feb 17, 2009)

Koda said:


> Just because FA uses Python, doesn't make it the best language in the world. Its a matter of what you're doing with your language.


I much prefer Ruby to Python, personally. But Eevee didn't say that about Python, I think you're reading too much into that.

Java is horrifying because it's the new era's bondage-and-discipline language, and PHP is terrible because it took everything wrong with Perl, everything wrong with shell, and everything wrong with C, and made them all worse.

Python annoys the living hell out of me, but that's because I grew up speaking Perl; I _want_ the ability to lay my code out however I choose, not be forced by the language to pick one style. :/


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## net-cat (Feb 17, 2009)

Every language I've ever used annoys me for one reason or another.

At work, I've generally been using VHDL and Python, The former was what the project was written. The latter was because I needed to write some support code fast and it was a language I was already familiar with. :|


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## Adelio Altomar (Feb 17, 2009)

Eevee said:


> why does everyone go for php and java?  those are like the worst languages in the world.




Maybe because they're starter languages...? 
I honestly couldn't tell if I'm more wrong or right...

I'm having trouble learning how to do what possibly are simple tasks for my class and I can't even tell if they're simple or not since I KNOW LESS THAN WHAT SHIT KEEPS AT THE BOTTOM OF HIS POCKET!!!!

Basically, I'm pretty much failing... ;_;


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## -Lucario- (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm learning programming right now actually. I can only do small programs made with java tho, so I technically don't count as a programmer yet.


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## Irreverent (Feb 18, 2009)

Rakiao said:


> Any other programmers out there? Just asking because it seems that almost every one here is just into hardware.



Sigh.  DEC-Basic, Wat/IV Fortan, IBM 360 assembler (I still have nightmares) , RPG 2 and 3, enough APL to get by, CMS, JCL, DOS (IBM Series 360 DOS, not the PC stuff) Pascal, a bit of MUSIC (McGill programing environment for the DEC PDP 1170) some html and a bit of php.

Went over to the dark-side in the early 90's, VTAM, MOS, 3270-gens, Novell, arcnet, starlan, 10base36 been a network nerd ever since.

Although union rules prevent me from getting any console time these days, the "hardware" I'm into is the Cisco 6500 series of switches, CSS's and Netscreen routers.  Passports and GSR1200's for the bigger pipes, Alcetel for the really big stuff.  Terrabit is in trial between Montreal and Toronto, but its not ready for the backbone yet.

PC's are just funky terminals for gaming, or surfing.


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## Eevee (Feb 18, 2009)

Rayne said:


> I did the first couple of those problems awhile back. Never thought of attempting each one in a different language, though. How's that working out for you?


slowly  D:  also I keep polling the internets for new languages, so I end up with crap like MUMPS and Shakespeare.  it might go a little faster once I've run out of gimmick and otherwise awful languages.




Koda said:


> Just because FA uses Python, doesn't make it the best language in the world. Its a matter of what you're doing with your language.


er what
- FA doesn't use Python
- I didn't say anything about Python except that I know it



Koda said:


> Personally, I hate Python, simply because of its goony syntax.


it is C-style syntax with less extraneous punctuation



Koda said:


> At work, we use .NET for web development and that seems very well suited for what we do; integrating processes/applications with web (internet retailer).


I cannot tell what makes .NET so great for web development.  on the surface it looks like another coldfusion.




Pi said:


> PHP is terrible because it took everything wrong with Perl, everything wrong with shell, and everything wrong with C, and made them all worse.


this is great and I want a bumper sticker of it



Pi said:


> Python annoys the living hell out of me, but that's because I grew up speaking Perl; I _want_ the ability to lay my code out however I choose, not be forced by the language to pick one style. :/


hey, I grew up speaking Perl too.  but I got past the whitespace thing once I interpreted it as removing extra punctuation from a pattern I already use, rather than forcing me into the pattern.




Adelio Altomar said:


> Maybe because they're starter languages...?
> I honestly couldn't tell if I'm more wrong or right...


doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from writing software in them

and really php is only good for teaching people how not to design a language
and I guess java teaches how to hate programming


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## Adelio Altomar (Feb 18, 2009)

Eevee said:


> doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from writing software in them
> 
> and really php is only good for teaching people how not to design a language
> and I guess java teaches how to hate programming




So what is it you've got against Java and some of the other languages, anyway...? :/


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## Pi (Feb 18, 2009)

Eevee said:


> hey, I grew up speaking Perl too.  but I got past the whitespace thing once I interpreted it as removing extra punctuation from a pattern I already use, rather than forcing me into the pattern.



Yeah, but i value the ability to break from that pattern when it becomes necessary. pages like this should not exist.


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## net-cat (Feb 18, 2009)

Using multiline """...""" and '''...''' in Python amuses me, for some reason.

Main problem I have with Python is the lack of end-of-block markers that aren't a comment or "one less tab stop." Make it annoying to read if there's a lot of nesting.

Of course, this is always fun...

```
while True:
    # ...
    if c: break
```


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## Eevee (Feb 18, 2009)

Adelio Altomar said:


> So what is it you've got against Java and some of the other languages, anyway...? :/


java has the platform-independence of C, the syntax of C, and the _wonderful_ type system of C with the performance of brainfuck.

php is just a mess and the language itself has zero redeeming features.  only deployment makes it even remotely worth a damn.




Pi said:


> Yeah, but i value the ability to break from that pattern when it becomes necessary. pages like this should not exist.


guido is a cunt for forcing everyone to not be a fuck-up, but he actually does it well

I dunno what to tell you; would Python be the language it is if it didn't try to prevent what is generally considered to be ugly code, or would it just be Perl?




net-cat said:


> Main problem I have with Python is the lack of end-of-block markers that aren't a comment or "one less tab stop." Make it annoying to read if there's a lot of nesting.


nest less


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## net-cat (Feb 18, 2009)

Yeah. I've been doing that. 

Now if only everyone else did...


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## Irreverent (Feb 18, 2009)

Eevee said:


> java has the platform-independence of C, the syntax of C, and the _wonderful_ type system of C with the performance of brainfuck.



You left out lack of strict bounds checking and null pointers.....but hey, tell us how you really feel.


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## Koda (Feb 18, 2009)

Simple: Visual Studio 2008. Its like.. if Jesus was a computer program.


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## Aurali (Feb 18, 2009)

Koda said:


> Simple: Visual Studio 2008. Its like.. if Jesus was a computer program.



oh gawd that program caused me a kajillion issues just to get it to run.


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## AxlePerri (Feb 18, 2009)

Not programmer, but work require programming and maintenance from time to time. I have had to use Java, it is easy to maintain at least and all the database/middleware application use it here (and more C#/.NET now I think). Another time I had to maintain a internal web site someone had half completed in the Perl script for some reason. It was terrible experience and I would not do it again.  Thankfully it was erased and replaced by proper developers later.


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## pheonix (Feb 19, 2009)

Me and my friend used to create programs to level up our characters on MMOs. (which is against the rules but meh) I'm not to good at it without him, it's kinda a teamwork thing. I make too many mistakes and he has to come back and fill in what I screwed up on. It took hours to do. Is that even considered programming or am I talking about something else? lol It was fun to wake up in the morning and have jumped up 50 levels.


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## Aryeonos (Feb 19, 2009)

Uh rely basic stuff I learned from Alice a while ago...I don't remember any of it though... Does website coding, and the like, count?

The majority of my programming knowledge were in "Sims PE" and "Star Craft Campaign Editor" and I tried and failed at the boolean logic thing the first time with "warcrafts...." 

So no real official programing...Oh and I mucked with the game physics for TOBLO, go imploding bombs yay!


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## PurpleFlashLight (Feb 19, 2009)

Im pr0 at c#, thts iit though.


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## Eevee (Feb 19, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> You left out lack of strict bounds checking and null pointers.....but hey, tell us how you really feel.


oh right

instead of null pointers, we have null _references_

much better

thank you sun for improving my life tenfold




Koda said:


> Simple: Visual Studio 2008. Its like.. if Jesus was a computer program.


IDEs are for girly men


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## Aurali (Feb 19, 2009)

Eevee said:


> IDEs are for girly men



Real Men use notepad o.o;

Nrr says I scare him cause I code in it o..o;


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## LizardKing (Feb 19, 2009)

Eli said:


> Real Men use notepad o.o;



Real men type straight into the command line.

Also yes I am.


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## WarMocK (Feb 19, 2009)

LizardKing said:


> Real men type straight into the command line.
> 
> Also yes I am.


echo ftw xD


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## SnowFox (Feb 19, 2009)

I used to use notepad before I found notepad++. Now I spit on notepad and even have my firewall block it from running just in case it's still the default program for some file types. Does it not recognize LF characters or something?


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## Irreverent (Feb 19, 2009)

Eli said:


> Real Men use notepad o.o;



"Copy con myprogram.com"


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## Aurali (Feb 19, 2009)

REAL Men high level language all together and code in executable BINARY!


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## net-cat (Feb 19, 2009)

Eli said:


> Real Men use notepad o.o;


dd of=a.out.hex



Eli said:


> REAL Men high level language all together and code in executable BINARY!


NAND and NOR is all anyone needs. Though I'll let you have NOT too since it takes fewer transistors.


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## Kosygin (Feb 20, 2009)

Eevee said:


> I cannot tell what makes .NET so great for web development.  on the surface it looks like another coldfusion.


Not quite. CF has a lot more overhead and is pretty sloppy. At least .NET offers a lot of flexibility with controls and it ends up taking a lot of stress out of a few areas. I like it though... may not be for everyone...

Anyway, I primarily use C# as the web application core and VBScript for classic ASP. Yes, I am a Microsoft whore but I do not care. I get the job done and enjoy myself while I'm at it.

I also use SQL for database driving. Obvious, eh?
Also been trying my hand at PHP and it's coming along like the VBScript is.
If you count XHTML and CSS as languages, I'm virtually an expert with those.
And finally... some C++ for writing DLL code for Yuri's Revenge. Now if I could only get Ares to complie... :evil:


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## Aurali (Feb 20, 2009)

net-cat said:


> NAND and NOR is all anyone needs. Though I'll let you have NOT too since it takes fewer transistors.



you and your fancy "electronic calculators".. Just give me a good ol abacus any day...


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## Eevee (Feb 20, 2009)

Eli said:


> Real Men use notepad o.o;


real men use butterflies



Eli said:


> Nrr says I scare him cause I code in it o..o;


that is awful why would you do that



Kosygin said:


> Not quite. CF has a lot more overhead and is pretty sloppy. At least .NET offers a lot of flexibility with controls and it ends up taking a lot of stress out of a few areas.


this doesn't really clarify.  and the use of "at least" is worrisome.


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## Kosygin (Feb 20, 2009)

I didn't quite mean it as saying .NET is clumsy. It's rather very solid when it comes to web applications and there is a lot of scalability you can perform without nearly as much hair ripping frustration as other web app languages. In other words, there's a lot of automation. Sometimes that can be a negative if your main concern is being able to control every style aspect. If you can handle templating with the skin system, .NET is fantastic.


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## Aurali (Feb 20, 2009)

Eevee said:


> that is awful why would you do that



Sheer laziness


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## LizardKing (Feb 20, 2009)

Eevee said:


> real men use butterflies



C-x M-c M-butterfly


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## Koda (Feb 21, 2009)

Eevee said:


> IDEs are for girly men



My time is valuable. I don't have time to waste sitting around playing with the language. Bar none, VS gets you programming your applications and libraries faster than anything I've ever used before. 
I can code far more efficiently and with less errors in an IDE like VS, and I don't really see any reason to do otherwise. It isn't *adding* anything into the code, except when I hit tab and it gives me a list of things to choose from.. How do I compile this complicated-as-fuck application referencing hundreds of libraries, in multiple languages? Hmm.. I need to spend an hour writing a make file... No wait, I have the magic "BUILD" command.  It's all done! Hooray! Uhuo, I have an error.. I can run in "DEBUG" mode and put break points in my code, and then inspect the variables and state of the program..why, I can even get at non-public members of classes in debug mode and really dig deep into whats going on.. while its paused!

Aww poor Koda, GDB too tough for ya? Fuckin eh. Who wants to stare at assembly code and figure out what these hex numbers are referencing... Ooo a string! Wow! >_>

See, I think you're confusing IDEs for HTML design with useful IDEs for code. HTML editors are horrible; when the person behind the wheel is using the visual part of the IDE to create pages, that's reeeeeealy bad. VS.NET has this, but I dont use it. Well, I dont use it for anything more than assigning events to objects by double clicking them, which I've already hard coded into the page...

I am not above using straight up text editors to do things either. I used to really like emacs, and I still use it for PHP work. Btw, I thought FA was using Python.. in the future. The whole.. ferrox thing. Yeah, smart ass.


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## net-cat (Feb 21, 2009)

Ferrox is written in Python.

And, I'm all for using tools to make life easier, provided you actually understand what the tool is doing. Don't be one of those no-talent hacks whose eyes glaze over when you set them in front of something that's not that tool they learned.

Main reason I support the use of tools is, well, try placing a billion transistors by hand and see how much hair you have left.


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## Pi (Feb 21, 2009)

Koda said:


> My time is valuable. I don't have time to waste sitting around playing with the language. Bar none, VS gets you programming your applications and libraries faster than anything I've ever used before.


You sound like a marketdroid.



> I can code far more efficiently and with less errors in an IDE like VS, and I don't really see any reason to do otherwise. It isn't *adding* anything into the code, except when I hit tab and it gives me a list of things to choose from..


That's what I've got a hard copy of the library/language/app reference for.



> How do I compile this complicated-as-fuck application referencing hundreds of libraries, in multiple languages? Hmm.. I need to spend an hour writing a make file... No wait, I have the magic "BUILD" command.  It's all done! Hooray!


So wait, a complicated-as-fuck application referencing hundreds of libraries in multiple languages just kind of sprung into existence without a makefile? Not buying it.



> Uhuo, I have an error.. I can run in "DEBUG" mode and put break points in my code, and then inspect the variables and state of the program..why, I can even get at non-public members of classes in debug mode and really dig deep into whats going on.. while its paused!


Wow, it's like it's got a debugger! I'm truly impressed by this!!! (cough)



> Aww poor Koda, GDB too tough for ya? Fuckin eh. Who wants to stare at assembly code and figure out what these hex numbers are referencing... Ooo a string! Wow! >_>


gdb gives you assembly when you a) don't have debug symbols compiled in or b) ask for it. If you've got the symbols, you get the variable names and the source code. You know, like a debugger.



> (snip)I am not above using straight up text editors to do things either. I used to really like emacs, and I still use it for PHP work. Btw, I thought FA was using Python.. in the future. The whole.. ferrox thing. Yeah, smart ass.



Emacs is okay. It tends to be a little too close to an IDE, and I wouldn't use it for PHP (well, I wouldn't use PHP at all, really), but some languages (lisp, haskell) lend themselves to that mode of interaction.


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## Eevee (Feb 21, 2009)

Koda said:


> My time is valuable. I don't have time to waste sitting around playing with the language.


if your language requires that much playing around, you may have chosen a bad one



Koda said:


> I can code far more efficiently and with less errors in an IDE like VS, and I don't really see any reason to do otherwise.


any editor with good syntax highlighting should be able to do this



Koda said:


> It isn't *adding* anything into the code, except when I hit tab and it gives me a list of things to choose from..


which vim and emacs can do



Koda said:


> How do I compile this complicated-as-fuck application referencing hundreds of libraries, in multiple languages? Hmm.. I need to spend an hour writing a make file... No wait, I have the magic "BUILD" command.


who writes makefiles?  that's what we have e.g. automake for



Koda said:


> I can run in "DEBUG" mode and put break points in my code, and then inspect the variables and state of the program..why, I can even get at non-public members of classes in debug mode and really dig deep into whats going on.. while its paused!


oh.  sounds like a debugger



Koda said:


> Aww poor Koda, GDB too tough for ya? Fuckin eh. Who wants to stare at assembly code and figure out what these hex numbers are referencing... Ooo a string! Wow! >_>


do you really think anyone would use gdb if it required reading assembly?



Koda said:


> See, I think you're confusing IDEs for HTML design with useful IDEs for code.


no, I just don't like monolithic horrors that do a mediocre job at everything.  I like powerful specific tools that do something very well and will happily plug into whatever other tools I want, with the option to swap out anything if I find a better replacement.



Koda said:


> Btw, I thought FA was using Python.. in the future. The whole.. ferrox thing. Yeah, smart ass.


well when you use _present-tense_ verbs I expect you to be talking about the _present_.  ferrox is not FA yet.


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## Koda (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm just saying, this is what I use. I have experience using VS.. a lot. I have a lot of experience using other languages (specifically in linux) from school/personal projects as well, and certainly, they both have their benefits and draw backs. .NET applications are processor heavy, but C++ and others don't have quite as many built-ins.

.NET just makes things so damn easy. Even something like making an internet client/server application, or talking to a serial port. You can't sit there and tell me its as trivial as it is in C# or VB as it is with (non VS) C++. Doing stuff with regular expressions, having an incredibly easy to use template class (generics) systems.


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## Toaster (Feb 21, 2009)

C++/Lua 4 ever


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## Eevee (Feb 22, 2009)

Koda said:


> .NET just makes things so damn easy. Even something like making an internet client/server application, or talking to a serial port. You can't sit there and tell me its as trivial as it is in C# or VB as it is with (non VS) C++. Doing stuff with regular expressions, having an incredibly easy to use template class (generics) systems.


I'm not sure why you're comparing .NET to C++ when I have not mentioned the latter in this thread and have probably not ever said anything positive about it on this forum?

C++ is very much a boilerplate language anyway (which is, to be fair, entirely intentional to avoid the whole 30MB framework download thing); to get anything done you need a collection of prerequisites that make it tolerable.  Making fun of it out of the box is easy and obvious.  Way to punch the handicapped kid.


For a comparison to languages I actually _use_:


```
$some_string =~ s/this/that/g;
```


```
import re
some_string = re.sub(r'this', 'that', some_string)
```

http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/

http://search.cpan.org/~cook/Device-SerialPort-1.002/SerialPort.pm

The only real tradeoff to speak of is whether you'd rather have one massive set of libraries spoonfed to you by the language maintainer and only updated when the language is, or a repository of third-party modules and a decent dependency system.  (Both suck.  I like the latter suck.)


And I'm no .NET expert but I'm pretty sure generics are easier in perl/python than C#.


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## Koda (Feb 22, 2009)

Perl and Python are not strongly typed languages, nor are they compiled. That's an apples to oranges comparison. Way to punch a handy capped kid in the face.


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## Eevee (Feb 22, 2009)

Koda said:


> Perl and Python are not strongly typed languages, nor are they compiled. That's an apples to oranges comparison.


Oho, hold on there just a minute.

Perl, Python, and everything for .NET are *all* compiled to bytecode.  Python has its own VM (well, several) and can even target the JVM with Jython or the CLR with IronPython.  I am unclear on how exactly perl executes an optree, but the Perl community is building a JIT VM for Perl 6.  You can compile both to executables by linking to their respective machines, albeit Python far more easily.

Python is definitely strongly typed, for at least one of the seven different definitions people use for the concept.  It's just not statically typed -- and C# is gradually becoming less so.

Why does typing matter here, exactly?  Hell, LISP and Objective C are both dynamically typed; Obj-C even uses duck typing like Python.  Are those not valid comparisons either?  What exactly _is_ okay to compare to C#?


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## Toaster (Feb 22, 2009)

Eevee said:


> Oho, hold on there just a minute.
> 
> Perl, Python, and everything for .NET are *all* compiled to bytecode.  Python has its own VM (well, several) and can even target the JVM with Jython or the CLR with IronPython.  I am unclear on how exactly perl executes an optree, but the Perl community is building a JIT VM for Perl 6.  You can compile both to executables by linking to their respective machines, albeit Python far more easily.
> 
> ...



god >.<


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## net-cat (Feb 22, 2009)

You know what's fun? Cython and Pyrex.

(The former being what I will most likely write the imaging processing portion of Ferrox in.)


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## Pi (Feb 22, 2009)

Anyone who uses the "compiled language!!11121tehhhh" argument is no longer worth listening to.


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## Eevee (Feb 22, 2009)

Pi said:


> Anyone who uses the "compiled language!!11121tehhhh" argument is no longer worth listening to.


what about when it's used for a language that's not really compiled

(hell it's trivial to write a Brainfuck compiler that's more compiley than anything for C#)


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## SnowFox (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm a bit late but....



net-cat said:


> *hands you an internet cookie and an ASCII table*



NONONONONONO I almost missed an internet cookie! I hope it hasn't expired yet. *Takes a few bytes now and saves the rest for later*

om nom nom

I know, I know.... facepalm etc


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## PeppermintRoo (Feb 23, 2009)

When I first started programming, I was truly amazed.  It simply felt like magic, and I didn't understand how it possibly worked.  Now, quite a bit later, I have a much, much better understanding of how computers work... but I still think of it as magic.

Somewhere along the line, the analogy changed though -- from first representing something that couldn't be understood, to then representing something that is fully understood and able to be manipulated.  Call it whimsical or geeky, but I view programming as the magic of the real world, and programmers as the wizards/sorcerers.  I find myself calling it bit weaving and technomancy, and the feeling seems to surface the most strongly when working in assembly or C, or when being particularly focused on memory management inside of C++.  

I'm of the understanding that if the day ever comes where programming stops feeling magical to me, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my career as a software developer.  Does anyone else feel something similar?


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## Irreverent (Feb 23, 2009)

PeppermintRoo said:


> I find myself calling it bit weaving and technomancy, and the feeling seems to surface the most strongly when working in assembly or C, or when being particularly focused on memory management inside of C++.



While I have been known to sacrifice the odd optical mouse to placated the cable gods, I'd hardly call that technomancy.  



> I'm of the understanding that if the day ever comes where programming stops feeling magical to me, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my career as a software developer.  Does anyone else feel something similar?



Yep.  Once I realized that a high level language designed for building primitive portable operating systems was being used for actual application development, I decided to call it quits, tossed out my quick references, screen column templates (rpg2/3) and flowcharting templates and hung up my programing cleats.  That and the fact that the then state of the so called "computer science" would be deadly/criminally negligent if mapped to "real" physical engineering disciplines made it time to go.  Could you imagine not checking bounds in a physical engineering setting?  People would die.  "If engineers designed buildings the way programmers wrote programs, the first woodpecker to come along will destroy civilization."  Actually, we may be seeing the first signs of this now, with buffer overflow expoits against mission critical services.

I went over to the dark-side and never looked back.   Nothing but 'net.


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## net-cat (Feb 23, 2009)

PeppermintRoo said:


> I'm of the understanding that if the day ever comes where programming stops feeling magical to me, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my career as a software developer.  Does anyone else feel something similar?


Oh, believe me. Nothing will destroy the magic of programming quite like designing your own processor. (A simple, 32-bit RISC subset, but a processor none the less.)


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## Billy-Rex (Feb 24, 2009)

C++ mainly. I need it to code the gamemode for my server.
Also I know HTML.


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## PeppermintRoo (Feb 24, 2009)

net-cat said:


> Oh, believe me. Nothing will destroy the magic of programming quite like designing your own processor. (A simple, 32-bit RISC subset, but a processor none the less.)



Well, by my line of reasoning and personal interpretations, that would actually increase the magic of it for me.

But learning the theories behind processors was enough for me; I'll leave their real-world design to the double eeeeeeeee's.


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## Aurali (Feb 24, 2009)

Billy-Rex said:


> C++ mainly. I need it to code the gamemode for my server.



Ahh that's fun.. ever get a weird glitch where a player randomly flies off into hell and you can't figure out why?

My favorite :3


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