# I need an editor for my Terrae story



## hara-surya (Dec 11, 2008)

Basically, I'm nearly 33,000 words in and not terribly much has happened and other than about 6,500 words that take place later in the story, only about a day and a half has passed over the course of 27,000 words.

What I need is someone who can sit down, read the whole thing (and more as I continue writing) and tell me what's superfluous and what should stay and can point out the worst of the grammatical and stylistic mistakes.  Their biggest qualification, other than knowing how to BE an editor (I've taken college courses in it, but you can't really edit your own work), is the ability to read Microsoft Office 2007 .docx "OpenXML" files, or whatever the heck Microsoft is calling it this week since that's what I'm using.  OpenOffice.org 3.0 can do it, though I don't know how well, and I think there are plug ins for Office 2003, other than that I have no idea.


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## Poetigress (Dec 11, 2008)

Doesn't Office 2007 still allow you to save a file as .rtf?  If it does, it seems like that would be an easier way to go.


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## hara-surya (Dec 11, 2008)

You lose A LOT of formatting and settings by converting to RTF.  RTF is a very, very basic rich text format, and makes for enormous files since they're actually plain text under the hood.  They are in no way a "production" format by any means.  ODT, DOC and DOCX are better rich text formats for what I'm doing and I personally have no desire to convert every single file (there's 11 and counting) after every single revision made into a format that I don't otherwise use.

ODT and DOCX are both XML files that are compressed using ZIP into significantly smaller files, sometimes as little as 1/3 the file size of a binary MS DOC file.  RTF has as much markup (byte for byte) as those two formats, but isn't compressed causing the files to be twice the size they need to be.

Not to mention no two programs parse RTF files in the same way, various forms of MS Office do different things between them, the various version of OpenOffice.org does another, and so does WordPerfect and there's no 100 percent guarantee that they'll even OPEN in a different program, as I've had happen in the past, much less look the same.  Plus, you can't save notes, editorial suggestions nor different file versions using RTF.

I've been using word processors since I was about 7 (and I"m 30 now) and I understand the differences between file formats on a very low level (I'm studying Informatics).  So, no, RTF isn't an option.


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## Poetigress (Dec 11, 2008)

*shrug*  Fair enough.  But I think you're really cutting your chances of finding someone who'll be able to do this by having that kind of limitation.  I notice you already have those files up as PDFs on FA.  Why not just have people read them there and critique?

Also, you might want to offer something in return.  That's a big investment of time and energy, so you should be prepared to crit/edit their work, or offer cash payment, art, or the like.


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## hara-surya (Dec 11, 2008)

Because I need them to have an editable file, PDF is by and large un-editable.  Comments are one thing, what I need is a deep, hard look at it and the ability to put directly into the file things that need to be removed.  (Some editorial features in most word processors include the ability to "strike out" sections to be removed and edited, replacing them with typically red markup.)

I could critique their work, but I'm not an artist (at least I haven't drawn in years) and I have little to no cash (and for that matter, if had to pay I'd just assume take Writing Fiction for a second time at my college and ask the professor for help, but that wouldn't exactly help with my major at this point).


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## kitreshawn (Dec 11, 2008)

I would go with Poe Tigress and say you should do it as a .TXT file.

Yes you lose text formatting however if you are relying on that then there is a real problem with your story.  It should be words, not bold, itialics, underlines, and other fancy stuff that tells your story.  If you lose a lot in the switch to .txt that tells you something.

Anyway, if you'll post it as a .txt I'll take a look at it.  Honestly though you probably only need to post the first 10 pages or so.  The type of problems a story seems to have tend to play out through the whole thing.

Edit:
You might also want to make a post in the Critique thread with a link.


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## hara-surya (Dec 11, 2008)

A text file loses ALL formatting and is the least useful file format, only good for programming (when given the proper extension), the most bare minimum of note taking or internal to UNIX-like operating systems.  I absolutely refuse to post anything of mine as a plain text file, the format as a way of transmitting things like stories, outside of being the base for a markup language like XML or as a readme type file for a program, is entirely obsolete.  It's universally portable, but I use markup like underlining, different margins, etc. which would be entirely lost.  Why people still insist on using in 2008 it is beyond me. We live in an era of multi-hundred gigabyte hard drives and Internet connections faster than office LANs a decade ago, there's no need to save every byte.

Plus, as I said, I don't want to have to convert every single file (11 so far) into a format that I not only find obsolete, but cannot do anything of what I want done.  I want to be able to open the file I sent to the other person, in my word processor and chose or deny that edits in-line.  Not have to copy/paste, etc.

It's also worth noting, the FIRST CHAPTER of the story is about ten pages, the entire thing is about 109 so far.  I'm looking for bigger problems than what might crop up in the first 10 pages.  I've been writing fiction since I was 7 years old, that's 23 years, I have the basics more than understood.  I need editing done on the big picture level, not the micro level.


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## Poetigress (Dec 11, 2008)

If you need editing done on the "big picture level, not the micro level," then I don't understand why you require in-document line editing.  As to why people still use text, I think you answered your own question: It's universally portable.  But again, you're free to request whatever you like, as long as you realize the disadvantages of it for the other person.

Incidentally, as to having the basics more than understood--I took a look at one of your chapters.  You might want to brush up on punctuation rules, particularly as they apply to dialogue.  That was the first thing that stood out to me at a glance.

(By the way, kitreshawn, it's technically "Poetigress," as one word--but I'll answer to most anything as long as it's polite.)  ;-)


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## TakeWalker (Dec 12, 2008)

Re: .docx

If you have an older version of Office, you can go to Microsoft's website and find a docx conversion program. I've downloaded it, and it allows you to read, edit and save docx files just fine.


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## kitreshawn (Dec 12, 2008)

ciaranskye said:


> A text file loses ALL formatting and is the least useful file format, only good for programming (when given the proper extension), the most bare minimum of note taking or internal to UNIX-like operating systems.  I absolutely refuse to post anything of mine as a plain text file, the format as a way of transmitting things like stories, outside of being the base for a markup language like XML or as a readme type file for a program, is entirely obsolete.  It's universally portable, but I use markup like underlining, different margins, etc. which would be entirely lost.  Why people still insist on using in 2008 it is beyond me. We live in an era of multi-hundred gigabyte hard drives and Internet connections faster than office LANs a decade ago, there's no need to save every byte.
> 
> Plus, as I said, I don't want to have to convert every single file (11 so far) into a format that I not only find obsolete, but cannot do anything of what I want done.  I want to be able to open the file I sent to the other person, in my word processor and chose or deny that edits in-line.  Not have to copy/paste, etc.
> 
> It's also worth noting, the FIRST CHAPTER of the story is about ten pages, the entire thing is about 109 so far.  I'm looking for bigger problems than what might crop up in the first 10 pages.  I've been writing fiction since I was 7 years old, that's 23 years, I have the basics more than understood.  I need editing done on the big picture level, not the micro level.



If you are looking for big picture problems than in document editing will not help you.  Only overview editing will do so, for which in document editing is completely useless.

And converting would hardly be a problem.  Open in MS word.  Save As.  Then use the drop down menu to change it to .txt file type.  You get a popup asking if you are sure, click yes.  Done.  Takes all of maybe 10 seconds a file.

But beyond that, if you aren't willing to do so that is fine, nobody can force you.  Course I can also assure you that people are much less likely to look at anything you post if it isn't in a .txt format because then it won't be displayed on FA as text and they will need to download it.  Most aren't willing to do that without at least some preview of what they are going to be getting.


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## Poetigress (Dec 12, 2008)

TakeWalker said:


> Re: .docx
> 
> If you have an older version of Office, you can go to Microsoft's website and find a docx conversion program. I've downloaded it, and it allows you to read, edit and save docx files just fine.



*nods*  Yeah, a plugin was mentioned in the original post.  But honestly, if it's hard to get people to even read non-text files on FA (let alone crit them), how many people are going to go to a website and download a conversion program just to read and crit one person's story?

I guess my point is -- and this goes beyond the scope of the original post -- the critiquer is the one providing a voluntary service for the writer.  It's not the critiquer's job to jump through hoops to accommodate the writer -- in fact, as I see it, it should typically be the other way around.  And the same goes when it comes time to submit one's work to a publisher: the burden is on the writer to accommodate their submission guidelines, even if that formatting may not be the way they'd ideally prefer to present the story.


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## foozzzball (Dec 12, 2008)

ciaranskye said:


> Basically, I'm nearly 33,000 words in and not terribly much has happened and other than about 6,500 words that take place later in the story, only about a day and a half has passed over the course of 27,000 words.
> 
> What I need is someone who can sit down, read the whole thing (and more as I continue writing) and tell me what's superfluous and what should stay and can point out the worst of the grammatical and stylistic mistakes.  Their biggest qualification, other than knowing how to BE an editor (I've taken college courses in it, but you can't really edit your own work), is the ability to read Microsoft Office 2007 .docx "OpenXML" files, or whatever the heck Microsoft is calling it this week since that's what I'm using.  OpenOffice.org 3.0 can do it, though I don't know how well, and I think there are plug ins for Office 2003, other than that I have no idea.



Two questions.

A) Did you outline?

B) I can give you a couple hours of my time, that any good for anything?


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## TakeWalker (Dec 12, 2008)

Poetigress said:


> I guess my point is -- and this goes beyond the scope of the original post -- the critiquer is the one providing a voluntary service for the writer.  It's not the critiquer's job to jump through hoops to accommodate the writer -- in fact, as I see it, it should typically be the other way around.  And the same goes when it comes time to submit one's work to a publisher: the burden is on the writer to accommodate their submission guidelines, even if that formatting may not be the way they'd ideally prefer to present the story.



You, of course, have a good point.


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## hara-surya (Dec 12, 2008)

kitreshawn said:


> If you are looking for big picture problems than in document editing will not help you.  Only overview editing will do so, for which in document editing is completely useless.
> 
> And converting would hardly be a problem.  Open in MS word.  Save As.  Then use the drop down menu to change it to .txt file type.  You get a popup asking if you are sure, click yes.  Done.  Takes all of maybe 10 seconds a file.
> 
> But beyond that, if you aren't willing to do so that is fine, nobody can force you.  Course I can also assure you that people are much less likely to look at anything you post if it isn't in a .txt format because then it won't be displayed on FA as text and they will need to download it.  Most aren't willing to do that without at least some preview of what they are going to be getting.



Ten seconds a file means a minute and a half (or more) to do it, rather than five seconds of gathering them up with my mouse and moving them to the email program window.

There is absolutely no reason why FA doesn't show PDF or support HTML other than not really wanting to support their writers.  The code to do it is out there, most likely just a minor change to the script that generates the page in the first place, it's just the admins being lazy about it and, honestly, the simple fact that if they didn't support the writers anymore they'd probably lose only a tiny fraction of their members and pageviews.

The VCL is the same way.  I've been a moderator there for years, Ch'marr is aware the writers are poorly supported, but that's not very high on his list of priorites.


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## hara-surya (Dec 12, 2008)

Poetigress said:


> *nods*  Yeah, a plugin was mentioned in the original post.  But honestly, if it's hard to get people to even read non-text files on FA (let alone crit them), how many people are going to go to a website and download a conversion program just to read and crit one person's story?
> 
> I guess my point is -- and this goes beyond the scope of the original post -- the critiquer is the one providing a voluntary service for the writer.  It's not the critiquer's job to jump through hoops to accommodate the writer -- in fact, as I see it, it should typically be the other way around.  And the same goes when it comes time to submit one's work to a publisher: the burden is on the writer to accommodate their submission guidelines, even if that formatting may not be the way they'd ideally prefer to present the story.



Publishers typically want some form of MS Document files, not plain text.  A vast majority of them use desktop publishing software for typesetting and the program they use specifically supports MS Word files.  I know this because I've worked with publishers in the past and currently, I've had several journalistic pieces published and I'm currently working on a game supplement for an RPG company.

The simple fact is FA doesn't support writers nearly as well as they do their artists.  Artists have a choice of a half-dozen major file formats and Adobe Flash, writers have four formats and only one of them is viewable in the browser with how they have it scripted.  The code to insert a PDF into a window is very short, assuming the user has some form of PDF viewer plug in, and HTML would be as simple as linking to the external HTML file in the CSS they use to generate the page in the first place.


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## hara-surya (Dec 12, 2008)

foozzzball said:


> Two questions.
> 
> A) Did you outline?
> 
> B) I can give you a couple hours of my time, that any good for anything?



I have outlined and I'm continuing to outline as I progress the story further.  The outline is good for the next month or so in-story and I have a rough outline in my head for about the next three to six months.

The problem I have is I've written 26,000 words or so that only cover about a day and a half.  That's about 80 pages, give or take, and I can tell you most novels I've read 80 pages often covers weeks or months (unless the story is intended to only take place over a short period, like "Father and Son" by Larry Brown or "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter Thompson, both of which cover a time span of not much more than a few days to a week, total.)

I have the feeling I could strike entire chapters of this story and not lose anything at all, maybe even as much as half of what's written, I just need someone else who can look at them with my baggage and tell me what could really go.

And yes, I'd love a couple hours of your time to help me.


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## hara-surya (Dec 12, 2008)

Poetigress said:


> If you need editing done on the "big picture level, not the micro level," then I don't understand why you require in-document line editing.  As to why people still use text, I think you answered your own question: It's universally portable.  But again, you're free to request whatever you like, as long as you realize the disadvantages of it for the other person.
> 
> Incidentally, as to having the basics more than understood--I took a look at one of your chapters.  You might want to brush up on punctuation rules, particularly as they apply to dialogue.  That was the first thing that stood out to me at a glance.
> 
> (By the way, kitreshawn, it's technically "Poetigress," as one word--but I'll answer to most anything as long as it's polite.)  ;-)



I'm about 100 percent sure I have punctuation problems.  The last time I took a class involving that was over 10 years ago, and even then they rarely teach you how to punctuate dialog in high school English.  College creative writing courses rarely get into the basics like that, instead focusing on things like style, characters, plot, etc. They assume once you've gotten to their 200-level writing course you've taken and passed Elementary Composition and know the basics already.


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## Poetigress (Dec 12, 2008)

ciaranskye said:


> Publishers typically want some form of MS Document files, not plain text.  A vast majority of them use desktop publishing software for typesetting and the program they use specifically supports MS Word files.



You've missed my point, which was, no matter what format we're talking about, the writers accommodate the publishers.  Yes, I know MS Word files are typically the standard -- I've had work published as well -- but if some publisher were to specifically request another common format in their guidelines, it would be wise to submit it in that format, not in whatever format you happen to prefer.  As I see it, critiquing works the same way.  It doesn't pay in the long run to make it even more difficult for someone to read and crit your work just because you want something to take five seconds instead of a minute and a half.



> The simple fact is FA doesn't support writers nearly as well as they do their artists.  Artists have a choice of a half-dozen major file formats and Adobe Flash, writers have four formats and only one of them is viewable in the browser with how they have it scripted.



*shrug*  The fandom doesn't support writers as well as they do their artists.  

As far as the FA code goes, I think you'd be better off taking complaints to admins who can do something about it.  As I understand it, a large overhaul has been in the works that will include supporting other formats in the browser, but I don't know enough about that to say what exactly is going to change or when.  In the meantime, text files show up onscreen, you can use BBCode to add bold, italics, centering, and other basic formatting, and frankly, if writers on FA need more than that to get the full impact of their story across, they probably need to improve their writing.


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## foozzzball (Dec 12, 2008)

I have to admit, I've never had anyone I've sold something to ask me for anything more complex than an rtf. (It's school who, annoyingly, want .doc.) Then again my sales are small press, so!

In any case. 

Ciaran: I've sent you contact details. Feel free to get in touch with me and we can see what (if any) assistance I can render. (I _can_ read DocX - I think - through open office.)

I am very curious about why you're working on your story in terms of 'days' and 'months'. Generally one composes a story based on narrative arcs and plot events, at least when outlining... character led stuff generally just - in my experience - leads one around by the nose, and outlines either end up nonexistant or flexible as all hell.

Furthermore, why the hell do you have punctuation problems after however-many years? Get ahold of Strunk and White's Elements of Style, or any other grammar book, or - ideally - multiples therof and read them. (I recently stumbled across and bought 'Writer's Handbook', a penguin pocket title, which is a good - if really terse - reference.) Turn off autocomplete and autocorrect and all those other 'handy' features, too. This is a craft issue, and your best friends there are reference material and practice.


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## Poetigress (Dec 12, 2008)

I'm still using _The Bedford Handbook for Writers_ from my college comp days.  It's not as much fun to read as some of the newer grammar-related books, but it works.


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## foozzzball (Dec 12, 2008)

My absolute favourite still is and forever will be 'The King's English', by Fowler, my copy of which is Circa '36 and has goldleaf on the cover. Not quite so easy to look up small specific things in, though...


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## TakeWalker (Dec 12, 2008)

Poetigress said:


> As far as the FA code goes, I think you'd be better off taking complaints to admins who can do something about it.  As I understand it, a large overhaul has been in the works that will include supporting other formats in the browser, but I don't know enough about that to say what exactly is going to change or when.



There will *never* be inline support for Microsoft documents.

If you don't believe me, ask Eevee. He's said so himself on numerous occasions.


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## Poetigress (Dec 13, 2008)

I do remember that discussion now that you mention it.  Wasn't there something said, though, regarding either RTFs or PDFs displaying in the browser?  That would be something other than plain text.


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## Xaerun (Dec 14, 2008)

If you're simply looking for a proofreader, I do proofreading for a negotiable fee. If you'd like you can PM me on the main site.


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## ScottyDM (Dec 14, 2008)

*File formats*

Plain text sucks pond water. It's that simple.

Even the most basic old-fashioned Underwood-inspired manuscript format allows for underlining--which is not available with text files. Of course when using your old Underwood you'd need to double strike to get the underline, but it worked and it was visible to the typesetter who recast it as italics for the printing press. So yea, old fashioned = underline, new fashioned = italics, and having _one_ of those is as much a necessary part of punctuation as quote marks. You don't _have_ to have any formatting beyond that. Bold is nice for the title, but most people can figure out which bit is the title. Also it's beyond cool to have your header stuff (author/title/page) set up to automatically generate itself, the text file format would screw that up something fierce. And getting some sort of paragraph formatting by simply hitting enter rather than putting in tabs or spaces or some such, is equally awesome and another thing lost by the text file format.

There can be no doubt, text files suck pond water.

RTF can be good. And unless the piece is experimental you really don't need anything beyond the italic/underline.

The best solution may be to do "save as" and use an older *doc* file format. It's not like your document contains tons of tables and illustrations and 20 fonts (it better not). Even old Word 2000 doc files would probably be just peachy. Everybody understands older doc formats. Also, your critter can overlay comments in the file and you can simply reload it and start typing.

It's more than getting the file into the critter's hands, it's the round trip. And yea, pdf files suck at the round trip.


*What's the real issue?*

Story structure problems? Sounds like that may be one of the problems by your first post. As far as story structure, what is your goal for the story? What sort of emotional experience do you want the overall story to impart in the reader? Here's an interesting video on story structure. And a longer video by the same guy that explains it in more depth.

Do you want someone to comment on your sentence structure, punctuation, etc. in sort of a teacher format so you can learn to fix your own problems? Then simply bounce the story back and forth, improving by degrees as you pick up techniques.

Or do you want someone to do line editing, which can be time consuming.


Scotty


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