# Feeling like an abused artist?



## vickletiggz (Aug 9, 2010)

This severely pissed me off and reminds me too well of the Black market thread here onf FA.... don't get ripped off guys <3

http://kaitol.com/how-to-hire-an-artist/


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## Taralack (Aug 10, 2010)

If this forum still had the "like" feature I would have liked your post.


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## vickletiggz (Aug 10, 2010)

I didn't even know that we use to have a "like" feature lol


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## Ratte (Aug 16, 2010)

I remember this.  Still pisses me off just skimming through that.

I'm hoping I don't get ripped off.  My art isn't the best, but there's a lot of work put into it, dammit.


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## Odd (Aug 16, 2010)

And now I know.


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## Lobar (Aug 16, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with what this guy had to say.  Regardless of the quality of your work, you're not identical to a professional.  You don't have the credentials and the history of successful projects to make you more visible and attractive as an artist that they do, so your work simply won't be able to command the same price, period.

But then look what he's actually saying.  This was a guide for people looking to hire artists, and he's telling him that those credentials and work history that they're paying for don't actually affect their final product.  In doing so he is _giving_ you the visibility and attractiveness you lack, and the more his advice gets out there, the more you'll be able to demand higher commission rates for your work from all the increased demand.  You'll be closer to price parity with the professionals than you are now.

So let up on the guy, because he's doing you more of a favor than you know.


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## quoting_mungo (Aug 16, 2010)

Mostly agreeing with Lobar; the only thing I see that guy saying that is truly sleazy is the advice to deliberately mislead your artist. Letting an artist sign a contract under the impression that their art will reach about 500 consumers, when you expect an order of magnitude or two more _is_ exploitative in a way that hiring artists who'll be delighted to be paid $500 for a smallish project is not. (Which is why any art I do for commercial use has and always will have a number clearly stated in the contract - that way if you lie to me about how many copies you will be selling, you're breaching contract and I can send your ass an invoice.)


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## Lobar (Aug 16, 2010)

quoting_mungo said:


> Mostly agreeing with Lobar; the only thing I see that guy saying that is truly sleazy is the advice to deliberately mislead your artist. Letting an artist sign a contract under the impression that their art will reach about 500 consumers, when you expect an order of magnitude or two more _is_ exploitative in a way that hiring artists who'll be delighted to be paid $500 for a smallish project is not. (Which is why any art I do for commercial use has and always will have a number clearly stated in the contract - that way if you lie to me about how many copies you will be selling, you're breaching contract and I can send your ass an invoice.)



I didn't read that he was suggesting lying about the scope of the project, only that it's unwise for the hiring party to tell the artist they're considering hiring what their more-credentialed competition is charging.  Which is just smart business, as doing so completely neutralizes their bargaining power in the deal.  And since the dA world is already going crazy over this article, the jig is already up, to a degree.

Though whether he's actually advocating such or not, you do bring up something that unscurpulous developers might do regardless and something artists should watch for.  All artists should be asking their estimated sales figures, and maybe asking for points on any sales above that figure.


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## jinxtigr (Aug 17, 2010)

The key word is really 'information'. You can buy a guy a pizza in exchange for a drawing. If you're commissioning cover art for a game that will make three million dollars at retail, and you're still buying the guy a pizza because he has no idea people normally get 20K for such a thing (I don't think box art usually gets points?) there's a problem, which is that you're not giving the guy the context he needs to ask himself 'how much of a piece of this do I earn?'


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't know why amateur artists are upset by this so much. They're perfectly willing to sell themselves to lousy smut and stupid icons that get less than minimum wage pay on this very site. They're happy to do trades, and give false thanks and comments for more exposure. Then they throw a hissy fit that someone is misleading them when they don't even work professionally?

The guy was stating the obvious by people who sell themselves out instead of doing research and finding out how to be part of the professional market. He just did you a favor since people just don't seem to get it and do the very shit he just told you he did. He makes flash games, that pretty much are on the cheap, are you so surprised and now pissed off, when you don't even make flash games?

Look how many people whore out commission work for cheap, then go on sites like Craig's List for jobs. 

Seriously, I read it and it was no different from what I knew years ago. Now some people unrelated to even working for the guy and doing the same crap I stated above are now getting their panties in a bunch.

Hello, wake up call.


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## Lobar (Aug 17, 2010)

Again, I think it's a gross exaggeration to say he's telling game producers to buy art with pizza.  But dA artists should have no expectation of ever getting 20K for their work (assuming your 20K normal rate is accurate) because:

a) While this guy's pointing out that what makes a professional artist "professional" is grossly overvalued, it still has _some_ value.  If you try to demand what the professionals are making, they'll just go back to the professionals (or just find someone more reasonable) every time.

b) If this guy does start a trend of developers turning to dA artists for their art, the price of "professional" art is going to crash, because the legitimizing of dA artists essentially equates to a massive influx of supply in the art market.  The eventual equilibrium point is going to be more than you're making now, sure, but it's largely going to reflect what the true value of professional work is versus what the professionals are making right now.  Really, if anyone should be super-pissed about this, it's the professional art firms, but that's capitalism for ya.

And I doubt game art typically gets points either, but that doesn't stop you from asking for them.  That's called negotiating.  I'm sure you'd have to give up some of your up-front payment to get them, so you'd essentially be betting on how well the game sells, but if you want to protect yourself, that's the way to do it.  They may see it in their best interest to pay you based on sales as well, as the only way they'd go over budget is if their game was more successful than anticipated, but if it flops they're out less money.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 17, 2010)

Eh. The guy is just 16 years old btw. http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2831286&postcount=20


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## Cratia (Aug 19, 2010)

honestly, tell me people... if you had to cut costs in any area that you could... where would you cut it?  Would you hire a professional?  Or would you go the cheaper route and hire someone without the college education for this, especially if you're capable of doing almost as good of a job as a pro?  Sure, they could be honest and pay you more, but you don't have the degree to back up that price, so why should they?  I'm not saying I AGREE with this practice, just that... in the grand scheme of things, it's not unreasonable that companies would do this.  And I'm sorry, but how many of you furs out there are going to commission someone for an $80 commission, when there's people on the forums selling something not quite as good, but decent for $10?  Tell me you're not just as guilty as this guy in this instance.  You're trying to get more bang for your buck, well guess what, so's he.


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## Cratia (Aug 19, 2010)

I completely agree with you on this one.




Lobar said:


> Again, I think it's a gross exaggeration to say he's telling game producers to buy art with pizza.  But dA artists should have no expectation of ever getting 20K for their work (assuming your 20K normal rate is accurate) because:
> 
> a) While this guy's pointing out that what makes a professional artist "professional" is grossly overvalued, it still has _some_ value.  If you try to demand what the professionals are making, they'll just go back to the professionals (or just find someone more reasonable) every time.
> 
> ...


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 20, 2010)

Cratia said:


> honestly, tell me people... if you had to cut costs in any area that you could... where would you cut it?  Would you hire a professional?  Or would you go the cheaper route and hire someone without the college education for this, especially if you're capable of doing almost as good of a job as a pro?  Sure, they could be honest and pay you more, but you don't have the degree to back up that price, so why should they?  I'm not saying I AGREE with this practice, just that... in the grand scheme of things, it's not unreasonable that companies would do this.  And I'm sorry, but how many of you furs out there are going to commission someone for an $80 commission, when there's people on the forums selling something not quite as good, but decent for $10?  Tell me you're not just as guilty as this guy in this instance.  You're trying to get more bang for your buck, well guess what, so's he.


 
If you're not a professional gamer/employee not making games the above isn't true. There is a reason people pay for professionals. EXPERIENCE. The Pro knows when to make deadlines, and how to spec work for the client's needs.

The person who hires on the cheap generally isn't and it tends to be less cost effective because you have to train that person, and in cases of those bailing out, you just wasted time (and money) on a project that doesn't get done. 

I'm not discounting the fact there are companies willing to take advantage or there aren't artists being taken advantage of, however, there is a reason professional artists exist and are still in demand.

http://www.thejonjones.com/2010/08/09/how-not-to-hire-an-artist/

Of course, again the argument over this...the guy who wrote the original artist is only 16 years old. Hardly someone I can consider professional but more of luck and overall stupid because now that he decided to publish his name and say this was the way to do it. Other industry artists can now just blacklist the idiot. 

And this is why, experience pays...


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## PrettyKitty13 (Aug 20, 2010)

Arshes Nei said:


> If you're not a professional gamer/employee not making games the above isn't true. There is a reason people pay for professionals. EXPERIENCE. The Pro knows when to make deadlines, and how to spec work for the client's needs.
> 
> The person who hires on the cheap generally isn't and it tends to be less cost effective because you have to train that person, and in cases of those bailing out, you just wasted time (and money) on a project that doesn't get done.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for putting that article up.
Not only did it break down the "How to hire an artist" article to my understanding, but I know the possible dangers of  being screwed over.
That guy knows what he's talking about, and if I helped in a production of a game, I'd sure as hell would LOVE to see news articles and positive opinions of my work.
THAT'S what encourages people.


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## Ruchii (Aug 25, 2010)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the artist.  His article is based on a very, very logical perspective.

I'd give back-up here on why I feel as I do toward it, but it seems that people already did here.


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## lostfoxeh (Sep 16, 2010)

He makes good business sense. Just like walmart lowering it's prices to kill all the small retail stores in the area and once it is the only store there raising the prices back up. However I do not like the morality of the article. It reminds me of finding a young person to be a singer/model and exploiting them. Then when they figure it out, dropping them.

While finding new artist is great, don't short change them. They need the money more than someone who already has a foot hold in their field.


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## Mark (Sep 21, 2010)

He is giving tips on how to get good quality for less money. Might not be of best moral but this is business. If you want to be paid a decent price, you either make up your own marketing tactics or, even better, improve your art.


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## Arshes Nei (Sep 22, 2010)

Yeah guys, I'm totally gonna listen to a 16 year old for business sense. Seems people just skip over this and the counterpoint. lol.


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