# Please Help! Paint Sai. Use it? Did you pay?



## Tiggress (Nov 6, 2009)

I would like to buy the license, but I can't remember anyone else saying they bought it. Am I at a dummy site just trying to rip me off or does the legit program only give you a 31 day trial afterwhich you have to buy the license?
Did you torrent it? Did you pay for it? How much did it cost you?

Thanks in advance to all who offer their  two cents!


----------



## Vaelarsa (Nov 6, 2009)

This is the official site:
http://www.systemax.jp/en/sai/

It has a 31-day trial.
Personally, I just downloaded a crack for it (naughty naughty) because I'm poor.
On there, it says a license costs around $55 USD.


----------



## the_donut_master (Nov 6, 2009)

There's always Gimp?


----------



## Vaelarsa (Nov 6, 2009)

the_donut_master said:


> There's always Gimp?


I tried Gimp as an alternative to Photoshop, once.

I don't see why it's praised so much. 
I found it confusing and shitty, and that Paint.net was a better freeware program all around.


----------



## Runefox (Nov 6, 2009)

Do buy the software. They went to so much trouble trying to copy-protect it, after all. Just because everyone else is pirating it doesn't mean you should.

Frankly, I'm not sure why people even bother with it. I didn't find it much different to use than any other program, and the interface is atrocious. But I guess I've become used to the concept of filling almost the entire screen with what I'm drawing/colouring/etc.

As for the Gimp, it is actually quite capable if you learn the interface, which I didn't bother with - I still can't get away from Paint Shop Pro 7. Awesome program.


----------



## the_donut_master (Nov 6, 2009)

I do all my work in Gimp, and it comes out nice enough. I had photoshop CS3 and it really lets me do the exact same things. I don't really think there's much of a difference seeing as photoshop brushes work on it too, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## Vaelarsa (Nov 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Frankly, I'm not sure why people even bother with it. I didn't find it much different to use than any other program, and the interface is atrocious.


It makes really smooth linearts.
That's what I like it for.
Draw lineart in Sai, then color in Photoshop.


----------



## Runefox (Nov 6, 2009)

Vaelarsa said:


> It makes really smooth linearts.
> That's what I like it for.
> Draw lineart in Sai, then color in Photoshop.



I prefer Inkscape to line with; Vector is inherently smoother than any raster graphics could ever be, and I can scale it to any resolution, big or small, without losing sharpness.  Plus, it's free and cross-platform, though it tends to crash on occasion.


----------



## Mayfurr (Nov 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I prefer Inkscape to line with; Vector is inherently smoother than any raster graphics could ever be, and I can scale it to any resolution, big or small, without losing sharpness.  Plus, it's free and cross-platform, though it tends to crash on occasion.



I've discovered that I can get some really nice linework done in GIMP using the "Stroke Paths" function - stroke with the "Ink" tool and "Brush Dynamics" enabled.

I've installed Inkscape, but it's rather like a solution in search of a problem at present - having just got used to using paths in GIMP, I'm struggling with how to apply that knowledge to Inkscape. So far, I've worked out how to turn bitmaps into vector format, but I can't see much further utility with Inkscape at present.

Paint.NET looks pretty cool. If that had been around before I found GIMP I might be using that instead, but having conquered the GIMP user interface and functions I can't be bothered learning yet ANOTHER raster graphics editor...


----------



## Runefox (Nov 6, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> I've installed Inkscape, but it's rather like a solution in search of a problem at present - having just got used to using paths in GIMP, I'm struggling with how to apply that knowledge to Inkscape. So far, I've worked out how to turn bitmaps into vector format, but I can't see much further utility with Inkscape at present.



Ah, you just need to use the right tool as far as lines go - The calligraphy brush tool allows you to put down lines of varying widths (if you have a tablet, this can be pressure-and-tilt-sensitive), modify those widths, scale and rotate individual lines, edit the nodes that make up those lines...

Importing a raster graphic and trying to do a "Trace Bitmap" on it is a little odd - It works, for the most part, but actually doing anything with it is a little difficult due to the way it works. It'll create a lot of weird and wacky shapes that don't really make much sense.


----------



## Tiggress (Nov 6, 2009)

I have GIMP and have to admit to falling into the ranks of the "Too Lazy to figure out the interface" crowd. It seems like it has potential, but I've used Photoshop for years and it's still my primary program although I'll also use Open canvas and I'm slowly learning how to properly and effectively use Painter. I've never tried Paint Shop Pro or Inkscape and I just feel a tad overwhelmed with my options to want to dive into all of them, at least for now. But I'll certainly be keeping these in mind.

So, since the site is legit and I now know that everyone else that I know has just ripped it, I'll go with the 31 day trial and see if I like it. If I'm in love, I'll buy it. As costs for good graphics programs go, $58 is more than reasonable.

Sounds like a lot of people like Paint Sai for inking and Photoshop for coloring. GIMP, Painter, and Open Canvas seem to be the favorites for raster images. Illustrator, Flash and Inkscape seem to be the top pics for vector graphics. This really makes me wonder though, what other art/graphic design/illustration programs do you guys use and what do you find they are best for? Which ones do you like the most? And perhaps the most important question for most of us starving artists: Which ones are free or cheap?


----------



## FluffMouse (Nov 6, 2009)

I tried Sai for a bit.. I liked the lines, but couldn't stand it for some other reasons I can't seem to remember right now. :<
But I do know that I quickly upgraded to Corel Painter, because I figure Sai is just a watered down fluff version of that.

Painter has all the stuff it has.. as far as I can see, and looks more put together.


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 6, 2009)

I use photoshop cs4.

but mostly for animating.

school licensing ftw


----------



## Runefox (Nov 6, 2009)

I use Jasc Software's Paint Shop Pro 7 for my raster (and some vector) graphics; It's old (2000), but it's incredibly effective and capable, and having learned the ins and outs of it over the years, I'm more comfortable with it than I am Photoshop and other programs. My only problem with it is now that I'm working with absurdly high resolutions (which I should just probably stop doing), it's not handling it very well and prone to crashes. Still, it's fast, powerful, and I've been using it since I started. Its vector tools eventually led me to Inkscape - The allure of anti-aliased, perfect lines was hard to pass up. On that note, I also use Paint Shop Pro 7 to mock up designs for websites and other miscellany. As said earlier, it's an incredibly fast program, great for quick viewing/modifications. Launches in a second or so. It's become so important to me that I even run it in Linux instead of the Gimp. It has a very clean interface that's fairly rudimentary-looking - Easy to dive into.

I'm not sure where you can buy Paint Shop Pro 7 any more, but the newer versions (which shifted focus away from artwork and towards photography) are available from Corel.

I very nearly got into Illustrator until I came across Inkscape. As primarily a mouse artist, Inkscape's allowed me to vary my line weights and generally break into a much better style overall. I'm quite fond of it and the lines it creates (especially as it allows me to smooth my mouse movements to create more natural lines), and the things it's allowed me to do. Illustrator, on the other hand, happens to be extremely good at taking vector line art and putting colour to it via its Live Paint tool, something that seems so simple - and extremely useful - and yet I believe only it can claim to do it.

I do have Photoshop CS4, but I rarely use it for anything except its much-better JPEG compression and indexed colour engines.

Oh yeah, by the way, There's a Gimp modification available to make its interface a little more like Photoshop's; Can't vouch for it, but people say it's good!


----------



## Tiggress (Nov 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Oh yeah, by the way, There's a Gimp modification available to make its interface a little more like Photoshop's; Can't vouch for it, but people say it's good!



This is pretty awesome Runefox, thank you, and thanks for your feedback.


----------



## FluffMouse (Nov 6, 2009)

That's why I stuck with Painter.. since the lines seem to be the same. And they both 
have the option to rotate the canvas as you work.. making it easier sometimes. 

I stuck with Painter because it seemed more refined.
Sai just struck me as Gimp is to Photoshop CS3.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Do buy the software. They went to so much trouble trying to copy-protect it, after all. Just because everyone else is pirating it doesn't mean you should.
> 
> Frankly, I'm not sure why people even bother with it. I didn't find it much different to use than any other program, and the interface is atrocious. But I guess I've become used to the concept of filling almost the entire screen with what I'm drawing/colouring/etc.
> 
> As for the Gimp, it is actually quite capable if you learn the interface, which I didn't bother with - I still can't get away from Paint Shop Pro 7. Awesome program.



Actually I generally hear the opposite. Sai has a very simple interface. Gimp's is atrocious, and has one of the worst GUIs about. The other problem with Gimp, unlike Sai is that it's not as reliable for detecting pressure on the tablet. Canvas rotation? Where is that and how can I do it on the fly? It's one of the most important aspects for drawing - unless you like having fucked up wrists and carpal. Sai has it set simple. Painter has it, even Open Canvas has it...they focused on PAINTING.

The only confusing thing was perhaps how to create brushes, and there are limitations. But I left a post about where you can get brushes and the exe file that makes it easier to load brushes. Guess I'll have to post it again

It has some the best of any program I have seen blending options. It's light weight. 






http://www.youtube.com/user/hecartha


----------



## FluffMouse (Nov 6, 2009)

BRUSHES. That's one reason.. thanks Arshes.
It seemed like too much effort to set up everything. :< I'm lazy.
I like how Painter just throws a bunch at you to choose from..

I don't like having to jump through hoops just to start something. 

Probably not the best thing for an 'artist' .. but meh.


----------



## Runefox (Nov 6, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> Actually I generally hear the opposite. Sai has a very simple interface. Gimp's is atrocious, and has one of the worst GUIs about.


Ahh, I didn't say Gimp's interface was better. =D Just that I didn't like Sai's. Gimp's interface is _terrible_, and yet nobody will fix it because they swear up and down that "IT'S NOT BAD IT'S JUST DIFFERENT :V IT'S AN EVOLUTION" ... Yeah. I just find Sai's interface to be clunky and obtrusive. As an example, take a look at the Paint Shop Pro 7 interface and compare it to Sai; Paint Shop Pro 7's tool options and layer palettes roll up out of the way automatically when you're not using them, but on the other side, the toolbars for Sai are massive!



> The other problem with Gimp, unlike Sai is that it's not as reliable for detecting pressure on the tablet. Canvas rotation? Where is that and how can I do it on the fly? It's one of the most important aspects for drawing - unless you like having fucked up wrists and carpal. Sai has it set simple. Painter has it, even Open Canvas has it...they focused on PAINTING.


That's where I differ I guess. I'm not really an artist per se - At least, not the painting way. I just scribble with my mouse and do digital-style colours, so what I like/need is probably different from what someone with a lot more skill and talent than I do likes/needs. Things like canvas rotation and pressure sensitivity aren't as important to me for my usage (especially as I don't have a tablet) as a clean layout and the ability to scroll/zoom rapidly and accurately.



> ...brushes...


Ahh, that's another thing I've never really had any use for.



> It has some the best of any program I have seen blending options.


I haven't really heard much about them except that they're great; During the time I had Sai (because everyone and their dog had it and were praising it all over the place), I didn't really do much to look at them. I guess I'll have to look again, though since my trial's expired, that'll be difficult.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 6, 2009)

SugarMental said:


> BRUSHES. That's one reason.. thanks Arshes.
> It seemed like too much effort to set up everything. :< I'm lazy.
> I like how Painter just throws a bunch at you to choose from..
> 
> ...



Painter's GUI is also complained about a lot. It's mostly due to the fact it's still stuck in Windows 2000 and hasn't streamlined itself. Adobe has a great interface with how it docks tools. I will admit that. Painter, I have to open every damn brush Palette because the Brush Editor is slow as hell. 

This is why Sai is a bit easier to use when it comes to modifying brushes. The later version of Sai has floating palettes which is a lot easier. Creating brushes is why Sai is a bit of a pain, because of how you had to edit the config file. The start-sai.exe helps solve that. You just drop the brushes in the appropriate folders.  Close Sai and use the Start-sai.exe to get the new ones in. You don't use Start-Sai.exe to start the program, just to start it if you have new brushes you added.

Once you start working in larger sizes with brushes in Painter, expect the slowdown from hell. I have no problem with Sai. I can take a picture and get it mostly done in Sai and move it over to Painter for further teaks. This is why light weight is stressed.  You will have a love relationship with Painter for at least a year as you play with it, then when you find out there are the most retarded bugs in the program you'll tear your hair out because it's present in several versions of the the program instead of fixed, like version upgrades should have been.

Word is Rob Mac said another patch is being released for 11 (since they didn't really bother to fix the issues in past versions...and left them in Painter 11) sometime before the Holidays in December. We'll see because, Painter 11 has a CPU bug. You may not notice it...but it likes to take up nearly 100% of your CPU, this causes errors with cut and paste strokes with your tablet, etc.

If I want to do quick sketches I usually use Sai or Open Canvas (but switched more to Sai). I've been trying to get more into Autodesk's Sketchbook Pro, but some of the options I want are graphics card dependent which is retarded, since I can use canvas rotation in programs that don't need it. Sai doesn't have the anti-aliasing/pixellated problem with zooming unlike Painter.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> As an example, take a look at the Paint Shop Pro 7 interface and compare it to Sai; Paint Shop Pro 7's tool options and layer palettes roll up out of the way automatically when you're not using them, but on the other side, the toolbars for Sai are massive!



*Pro Tip 1*- Use the Tab Key

That I can find distracting, temporal templates that automatically scroll/fade is not the best thing.

You probably want to also adjust the palette to size it where the Brush size circles are not showing - it's redundant since the Size option is already below. 

*Pro Tip 2* - Use the bracket keys [ and ] to size your brush. The other way to quick size is CTRL+ALT (drag up or down). Much faster than playing with the Brush size circles interface. I mean really - "I need brush size 150, let me scroll through the palette" Pfft, use the shortcut keys and save yourself time.



> Things like canvas rotation and pressure sensitivity aren't as important to me for my usage (especially as I don't have a tablet) as a clean layout and the ability to scroll/zoom rapidly and accurately.



I'll stress it's a very important issue. People using digital need to move the canvas and not hurt their hands trying to make the correct curve or stroke when painting. RSI injuries are serious business. 

Blending is another issue that is rather important. Traditional artists want something that blends that makes sense. The faster it is to blend the better off it is for work flow. People might like the Sample Colors at Low Opacity and Paint at Low Opacity, but that's ridiculous for someone like me. I paint, I don't look for opacity settings in oils I either use a wash or set up a color palette.  I also don't look for Opacity settings with my colored pencils, I know how to use them.

Using a mouse over a tablet explains some of your frustrations with Sai. Get a tablet. It's a world of difference when you come to find out your needs in digital painting.


----------



## Mayfurr (Nov 6, 2009)

I've been using GIMP for several years now, mostly since it went to version 2.x, and as mentioned before I've gotten used to the interface and know my way around my frequently-used functions. Being like Runefox and not having a tablet, up until recently I've been using GIMP primarily for colouring traditionally-inked artwork scanned in to the computer as opposed to drawing something completely from scratch.

Before I got into GIMP I went through a period of scrounging through computer magazine cover disks for "free" versions of graphic editors (usually a version behind the current release to encourage people to buy the new one). The one I used for a while was Micrographix Picture Publisher which did a good chunk of what I wanted but still had a few issues. Like using an "object" concept rather than "layers", as well as a bug preventing it from reading TIFF files it had previously written. So when the interface in GIMP improved I've switched to GIMP and never looked back.

The only Photoshop I've ever used was in Japan - yep, the Japanese version - and that was only 'cause that's what Kinko's was using when I wanted to scan some pics  I suspect the main complaint about GIMP's user interface may be because most people have used Photoshop and expect it to work the same, but as I've never HAD Photoshop for a comparison I can't really say.


----------



## Tiggress (Nov 7, 2009)

There was a little mix-up with my last post due to wording, so I'm re-posting it, hopefully with less confusion.



			
				Tiggress said:
			
		

> SugarMental said:
> 
> 
> > I tried Sai for a bit.. I liked the lines, but couldn't stand it for some other reasons I can't seem to remember right now. :<
> ...



And so I've installed it since then and tested it out and so far I think this program has AMAZING potential! There is only one thing so far I need to figure out in order to grasp the full capabilities and that is figure out how to calibrate the pressure sensitivity. After I do that it's a matter of practice, tutorials and experience.

I can happily say that already I see why so many people love this program. I'm certainly going to be buying the licensing after this 31 day trial!


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 7, 2009)

Tiggress said:


> There was a little mix-up with my last post due to wording, so I'm re-posting it, hopefully with less confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Options - Digitizer Support, put the minimum at 0 (you can change it around of course, but I put it at 0)

You can also change the pressure curve if you have a wacom tablet...bit more technical on how to do it, but a linear pressure curve is desired.


Tools- There are slight delays when it picks up on modifier commands like ctrl and shift. My advice is if you want to use the CTRL+ALT shortcut to do the brush sizing option I mentioned earlier, decrease the milliseconds for the CTRL to 0

http://algenpfleger.deviantart.com/art/SAI-Tutorial-67196095


----------

