# Are girls treated better?



## 4legdmonstr (Sep 26, 2012)

Well I just thought about this because sometimes I do things that people say guys shouldn't do, and if I was a girl then it wouldn't be a problem.

For example, I was in school once even though I was sick. There was a test I didn't want to have to make up. Due to sickness I almost like passed out and people were surprised when I told them why I went home early. Someone even said that it's weird for a guy to faint.

Also, do girls have more doors held open for them and stuff? Or is that just a myth?

And the biggest thing is more freedom in what clothes they wear and style and hobbies and stuff like that. If I didn't like violent games like Mortal Kombat, then everything else I do is probably considered girly and gay. =s Especially since I kinda wanna learn how to sew.

So yeah, what do you think?


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## Yago (Sep 26, 2012)

Not really. Girls get paid less etc.

They certainly aren't treated better, and centuries of them being considered inferior should attest to that.

All in all, it's just gender roles and stereotypes and conformity and all that. It'll happen to both genders.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 26, 2012)

In certain aspects, yes. I don't think a female will ever have to worry about being arrested for causing domestic violence, regardless of the severity.

In other aspects, no. Women generally speaking aren't as well paid. Although this is primarily due to the fact that women have only recently started to enter the professional workforce en masse and all those recently employed experienced a pay decrease, the gap does exist.


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## Conker (Sep 26, 2012)

In some minor respects, maybe, but in many respects, either a "no" or "treated the same." 

See, it's not so much that girls are treated better but that men have this odd view of masculinity. There really isn't anything gay or girly about sewing; it's a useful skill that most people don't have in this day and age. Hell, I wish I could sew as tha'd save me a few ripped pants and tshirts, but I can't so off to replace them I go. 

I don't think this view of masculinity will ever really go away from your life, but it will diminish as you move on and enter college and such. I guess the best thing I can say is don't let other people dictate what you like or what you want to do simply because you're a guy and you'll be labeled a faggot if you go against the grain.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 26, 2012)

4legdmonstr said:


> Someone even said that it's weird for a guy to faint.
> 
> If I didn't like violent games like Mortal Kombat, then everything else I do is probably considered girly and gay. =s Especially since I kinda wanna learn how to sew.
> 
> So yeah, what do you think?



I think they're twelve years old honestly.


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## Ikrit (Sep 26, 2012)

maybe if you start acting gay people will attack you for it and you can get on Ellen or some shit for free stuff :V


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## Lobar (Sep 26, 2012)

Societal gender roles are much more limiting for women than they are for men.

also you're probably not going to get raped so


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 26, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> In certain aspects, yes. I don't think a female will ever have to worry about being arrested for causing domestic violence, regardless of the severity.



Oh, they do. It's not as common because society dictates that men are "sissies" if they "let themselves" be beat up by a woman, but trust me, it happens. I work at a place that offers legal aid for victims of domestic violence, and we _definitely _have some male clients. They have their own unique set of problems with it simply because society doesn't like to perceive women as a threat.


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 26, 2012)

Women can't be killers, rapists , or husband-beaters 

Men also have 100% resistancy to rape as a starting perk


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## Dreaming (Sep 26, 2012)

4legdmonstr said:


> I was in school once even though I was sick. There was a test I didn't want to have to make up. Due to sickness I almost like passed out and people were surprised when I told them why I went home early. Someone even said that it's weird for a guy to faint.


What the hell kind of school was that




4legdmonstr said:


> Also, do girls have more doors held open for them and stuff? Or is that just a myth?


Maybe if it was 1912, and you were upper-class. It could just be the area I've lived in, but holding the door open would be common courtesy for anyone, regardless of gender. 




4legdmonstr said:


> And the biggest thing is more freedom in what clothes they wear and style and hobbies and stuff like that. If I didn't like violent games like Mortal Kombat, then everything else I do is probably considered girly and gay. =s Especially since I kinda wanna learn how to sew.
> 
> So yeah, what do you think?


I can't say much for the clothes (would you really wear traditionally girly clothes though? Most girls wouldn't these days.) And hobbies, I don't see why you should restrict yourself there, try those things out if you really want to. There are plenty of guys who do ''girly'' things. 

Really, gender roles, forget about 'em.


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 26, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> What the hell kind of school was that


Any elementary or high school in the globe?


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 26, 2012)

Zuckerdachs said:


> Oh, they do. It's not as common because society dictates that men are "sissies" if they "let themselves" be beat up by a woman, but trust me, it happens. I work at a place that offers legal aid for victims of domestic violence, and we _definitely _have some male clients. They have their own unique set of problems with it simply because society doesn't like to perceive women as a threat.



That's my point. As a lightweight dude, that's always been a legit concern of mine because there's no possible way I'd be able to fight back without getting put in the slammer, and I've been with some pretty violent women.


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 26, 2012)

Zuckerdachs said:


> Oh, they do. It's not as common because society dictates that men are "sissies" if they "let themselves" be beat up by a woman, but trust me, it happens. I work at a place that offers legal aid for victims of domestic violence, and we _definitely _have some male clients. They have their own unique set of problems with it simply because society doesn't like to perceive women as a threat.


I *DOUBT* anyone takes them seriously.


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## Aleu (Sep 26, 2012)

You've got to be kidding. Women are for the most part treated as inferior or fragile. They're not taken seriously in a shitton of situations that includes certain types of jobs. Damn, do you live under a rock?


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 26, 2012)

Aleu said:


> You've got to be kidding. Women are for the most part treated as inferior or fragile. They're not taken seriously in a shitton of situations that includes certain types of jobs. Damn, do you live under a rock?



I sense a tiny fear of the feminine myself...


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 27, 2012)

Hinalle K. said:


> I *DOUBT* anyone takes them seriously.



Well, people with _that _attitude certainly don't.

And that's why my place of work exists.


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## Ozriel (Sep 27, 2012)

inb4 Misogyny.

As a female, yes and no.


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## BouncyOtter (Sep 27, 2012)

I think it is highly dependent on the job or situation.  The girls in my schools don't get treated any better or worse than the guys.  However, when my tank group was getting lunch together after a lab (still in our scrubs) a group of guys immediately identified the sole girl in my tank group as a nurse, while at the same time assuming all the guys in my group were doctors.  We had to correct them several times.   I know this misconception still occurs (although not as much as it used to) quite a bit.

As for having doors held for them, I hold doors open for women, but I do it for other men as well.


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 27, 2012)

Zuckerdachs said:


> Well, people with _that _attitude certainly don't.
> 
> And that's why my place of work exists.


People with _that_ attitude?
You mean society as a whole?


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## Aetius (Sep 27, 2012)

Hinalle K. said:


> Men also have 100% resistancy to rape as a starting perk



Sadly that isnt the case.


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 27, 2012)

Aetius said:


> Sadly that isnt the case.


Darn :v


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## Zenia (Sep 27, 2012)

People (sometimes) hold the door open... but I think that is just them trying to be polite rather than because I am a girl. I mean, I will hold the door behind me if there is a young/old/man/woman behind me... though if it is an elderly person I let them go in front of me.


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## RailRide (Sep 27, 2012)

Cracked.com article on the most baffling aspects of women's clothes.

Being that I draw my characters (mostly female) in a wide variety of outfits, I feel tempted to incorporate some aspects of the info presented above, into some comics...

---PCJ


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## moonchylde (Sep 27, 2012)

I always hold doors open for women, and sometimes for men, but I won't go out of my way for a man. I always open the car door for a woman, and I take off my hat when a woman enters the room. Can't say if it's right or wrong, it's just how I was raised. My mother taught me to be a gentlemen, and I was apparently born a hopeless romantic... some people automatically associate my behavior with antiquated gender roles or sexism, but that is how a woman taught me to treat women, and that is how I will act so long as I am able to. 

*adjusts monocle and puffs on pipe*

Bully.


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## Artillery Spam (Sep 27, 2012)

I remember girls having a fuck load of advantages in grade school, middle school and high school.

Mostly in the lower grades though.


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## 4legdmonstr (Sep 27, 2012)

Well I knew about the making less money and being more prone to danger and still being seen as lesser. 

Now that I think about it, besides the being able to do certain hobbies without being made fun of or whatever, there isn't too much of an advantage I guess. But yeah, I'll just say that stereotypical straight guys are real pricks about the "masculinity" thing, and forcing other guys to have it as well, but, that's the problem with guys just being douchebags.


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## Aleu (Sep 27, 2012)

RailRide said:


> Cracked.com article on the most baffling aspects of women's clothes.
> 
> Being that I draw my characters (mostly female) in a wide variety of outfits, I feel tempted to incorporate some aspects of the info presented above, into some comics...
> 
> ---PCJ


So much truth to this article ;~;

Man why people gotta bash the 80s style? Freaking haters


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## Vee (Sep 28, 2012)

Yago said:


> Girls get paid less etc.



They don't. Don't mix blatant lies from the 70's into your argument, it makes it look suspect.

And here. We. Go.



Why are only women free to criticize other women without being labeled anti-women, but both men and women are free to criticize men?

Why is it politically incorrect to say anything negative about women but funny to put men down?

Why is it funny when a woman kicks a man in the groin but terrible if a man did the same to a woman - wouldn't the man be in more pain?

Why is it terrible for a woman to be raped once but funny when male prisoners get raped over and over?

Why is it okay for women to demand free contraceptives which more often than not have unintended side effects, (birth control pills), under American healthcare, but it's not okay for men to demand free contraceptives which rarely have unintended side effects, (condoms)?

Why is a man a wimp if he lets his wife beat up on him but a criminal if he defends himself?

Why does women's health get much more attention - in England, literally 100x more federal funding, ads, etc. -  when men die about seven years younger than women?

Why is it sexist to have clubs for only men but empowering to have them for only women?

Why is it that women complain when mean leave the toilet seat up, but men don't complain when women leave it down?

Why do women complain about men that only want one thing, but men don't complain about women that want everything?

Why do women have the choice between abortion, adoption, dropping an unwanted baby off at a hospital, raising the child with a father or raising the child without a father, but the only choice men have is to agree?

How do police know who to arrest when there is a domestic disturbance involving lesbians?

If single mothers have it so bad, why do women initiate about eighty percent of divorces and routinely commit perjury to win custody?

Why do women dress in makeup, short skirts, bare midriffs and low-cut blouses but complain about men that stare at them?

Why do we pretend that men are the ones that abuse children when it is a well-known fact that women abuse children more than men?

Why do we have a Violence Against Women Act but nothing for men when women cause domestic violence just as often as men?

Why do we complain about legislators being mostly male when they always promote women's rights and *literally* never promote men's rights?

Why don't companies hire only women and put the competition out of business if it's true that women only make 75 cents for the same work where a man earns a dollar?

Why do married women complain about changing their baby's diaper but divorced women say their ex-husbands can't take care of a child?

Why do men that don't pay child support go to prison but nothing ever happens to women that don't allow visitation?

Why is it okay for Fox news to run a segment about how better to take advantage of men - getting them to spend more money on women - but not the other way around?

Why is it okay for two women on Fox news to compare all men to animals on national geographic, portraying them as "puffing out their feathers and doing a little dance for women," but it's not okay to make the same comparison the other way around?

Why are men legally obligated to register for the draft the moment they come of age, but women don't have to, too, despite supposedly wanting equality?

Why are we so concerned about girls under-performing boys in math and science but not concerned about boys under-performing girls in everything else?

Why do fathers have to pay the mother to take his children away from him in divorce?

Why is it legal for women to lie to men about who the father of a baby is to get child support, but a crime if she tells the same lie to the government to get social security or military benefits?

Why do women have to prove they spent the money on their children when they collect welfare but don't have to do the same when they collect child support?

Why do we have to cut men's sports that have fans to create women's sports that don't?

Why do women tennis players win the same prize money as men when they only play three sets and men play five - isn't that equal pay for only 60% the work, despite supposedly wanting equality?

Why do we celebrate mediocrity simply because the participant is female?

Why are men expected to pay for free drinks for women at bars, but not the other way around, when the average woman wants sex so much, she's more likely to cheat on someone she's in a relationship with than the average man?

Why is it called sexual freedom when a married woman commits adultery but called cheating when a man does the same?

Why are female murderers presumed to be mentally ill but male murderers presumed to be killers?

Why are there thousands of father's rights groups but no mother's rights groups?

Why do we have so many father's rights groups fighting for more time with their children when there are so many social problems attributed to fatherlessness?

Why do men have to support women at the same standard of living following divorce when women don't have to cook at and clean his new apartment, despite supposedly wanting equality?

Why do we pretend that men walk out on their wives and children when women initiate about eighty percent of divorces?

Why is it considered sexist to have a couple of television shows geared towards men when there are several *channels* catering only to women?

Why are television moms always portrayed as wonderful and loving and television dads always portrayed as inept buffoons?

Why are women without a job considered to be exercising free choice but men without a job considered a bum?

Why do feminists demand that women be equally represented in high paying and powerful jobs but don't complain when low-paying, dirty and dangerous jobs remain done almost entirely by men?

Why do we have to say "Chairperson" and "Congressperson" when referring to women in that position but it's okay to say "garbage man" and "bad guy"?

Why do we always hear the phrase "innocent women and children" but never hear about "innocent men" or "men and children"?

Why do news headlines use the terms "student," "spouse" or "parent" when a girl, woman or mother does something wrong, but use the terms "boy," "husband" or "father" when a boy, husband or father does something wrong?

Why do we celebrate mediocrity simply because the participant is female?

Why do feminists demand equal results for traditionally male roles but object to equal or shared parenting after divorce?

Why do feminists demand equality, but expect a man to pay for them to live a life of leisure without having to work a job after a divorce, but not have it both ways or the other way around?

Why do feminists never demand to work just as hard as men or to work in the most dangerous jobs?

Why do feminists never demand equal punishment for child molestation cases?

Why are male sexual offenders sent death threats from strangers and condemned by the media when female sexual offenders are sent love letters by adoring fans and openly praised for their actions by the media?

Why does the term "angry mother" sound like someone that needs our help and support, but the term "angry father" sounds like someone that needs to be arrested and forced into anger management classes?

Why is it that when men are more successful than women it's because women are oppressed, but when women are more successful than men it's because men are lazy?

Why are feminists pushing for laws that prevent new laws from being passed that protect men from women, such as with domestic violence against men, false allegations by women and paternity fraud, despite supposedly wanting equality?

Why is that when a woman accuses a man of rape, the man's name is made public and he is automatically presumed guilty, but when he is proven innocent the woman remains anonymous and the man is still ruined?

Why is it considered woman-hating or whining to point it out when women have something better than men, but we rush to pass new laws if men might have something better than women?

Why is it that we've had forty years and billions of dollars going into women's rights and men's responsibilities, but it's taboo virtually everywhere to even suggest that maybe it's time to consider men's rights and women's responsibilities, just a little bit, for a change?

Why is it that when a man points out all these horrible inequalities, everyone says he's sexist, gay, can't get laid and is making up for a small penis?

Why is it that when these points are brought up, the only counterarguments are nothing more than blatant insults rather than reasoned, polite discussion?

Why is it that if a man puts a woman on a pedestal and tries to protect her from the rat race he's a chauvinist, but if he doesn't, he's an uncaring pig?

Why is it that if a man stays at home to do the housework, he's a pansy and deserves to be divorced, but if a woman stays at home to do the housework, it's because she's oppressed?

Why is it that if a man works too hard, there's never enough time for her, but if he doesn't work enough, then he's a good-for-nothing bum?

Why is it that if a woman has a boring, repetitive job with low pay, it's exploitation, but if a man has a boring, repetitive job with low pay, he should get off his rear and find something better?

Why is it that if a man gets a promotion or job ahead of a woman, it's favouritism, but if a woman gets a promotion or job ahead of a man, it's equal opportunity?

Why is it that if a man mentions how nice a woman looks, it's sexual harassment, but if he keeps quiet, it's male indifference?

Why is it that if a man cries, he's a wimp, but if he doesn't, he's insensitive?

Why is it that if a man makes a decision without consulting a woman, he's a chauvinist, but if a woman makes a decision without consulting a man, she's a liberated woman?

Why is it that if a man asks a woman to do something she doesn't enjoy, it's domination, but if a woman asks a man to do something he doesn't enjoy, it's a favour?

Why is it that if a man appreciates the female form and frilly underwear, he's a pervert, but he doesn't, he's gay?

Why is it that if a man appreciates the female form or revealing clothing, he's a pervert, but if a woman browses through magazines of nude men or men in BDSM outfits, it's normal, sexual freedom?

Why is it that if a man likes a woman to shave her legs and keep in shape, he's a sexist, but he doesn't, he's unromantic?

Why is it that if a man tries to keep in shape, he's vain, but if he doesn't, he's a slob?

Why is it that if a man does something nice for a woman, like buying her flowers, he's after something, but if he doesn't, he's not thoughtful?

Why is it that if a man is proud of his achievements, he's full of himself, but if he's not, he has no ambition?

Why is it that if a woman 'has a headache', she's tired, but if a man 'has a headache', he's gay?

Why is it that if a man wants sex too often, he's oversexed, but if he doesn't, he's gay?

If those who always side with women are feminists and those who always side with men are chauvinists, why don't we have a wing of a political party and billions in funding going to chauvinists when we have that for feminists?

If divorced women have it worse than divorced men, why do divorced men commit suicide eight to ten times as often as divorced women?

If women have it worse than men, why are men four times more likely than women to actually die by killing themselves, whereas  women attempt suicide more than males, leading some psychologists to believe that females are more likely to seek attention by doing something that seems extreme, but males who commit suicide are seriously attempting to end their lives.

For those who say men had it better than women in the past and believe now it's time for women to have it better than men for awhile, why don't they advocate whites being forced into slavery to blacks..? But I thought you wanted equality?

Why are men considered more privileged than women with all of these double standards that oppress men?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/both-genders-stare-women-breasts-equally-study-175809076.html http://puu.sh/Vwu0 More sexism from Yahoo: another article.

"Are women equally guilty of sexist habit?"
"surprising results"

Why is it not only acceptable, but encouraged to pretend that women aren't as capable as men of being sexist?

Aaand finally, why do some people still believe in the "Women only make 33%-75% as much as men do in the same jobs" myth? In this modern age where there would be a lawsuit in a *heartbeat* if a woman noticed she was being paid even $0.01 cent less than a man in the same job while performing equally well, I'm surprised that people blindly accept common phrases like that as facts, rather than thinking about it rationally and actually looking into it. I wonder how many of these same people also believe in superstitions, such as receiving seven years of bad luck for breaking a mirror...

For you conspiracy theorists out there who believe that myth: When's the last time you were paid your $7.25 minimum wage at work, and your female coworkers were paid only $3.12 to $5.44, or vice versa - you, a female, were only paid $7.25 an hour, while your male counterparts in the exact same job, performing exactly as well as you, were earning anywhere from several dollars to 300% more than you? There are state and federal laws in every civilized country worldwide to make sure this kind of sexism cannot exist, people - at least in the workplace, in first world countries. If the myth was true, employers would simply hire only women, pay them half price, and with their *ludicrously huge* amount of savings by doing so, put all their competitors out of business overnight.

On a personal note, I'm a male who's paid the absolute bare minimum wage at an entry level job, whereas literally *all* of my female coworkers are paid at least $0.25 more than me. This is not a complaint - just an observation. As a new, inexperienced worker in this industry, I understand that the quality of my work isn't up to par with theirs, since they've been working in this business longer than I have - logically, it's only right to pay them for their higher quality of work.

I wish more people were willing to put aside their emotions and victim complexes to think more objectively, like this. /rambling


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## Aleu (Sep 28, 2012)

Vee said:


> -pointless and incorrect bitching-



Why do you have nothing but idiotic questions? Also yes, women still do get paid less than men in salary jobs, not talking about minimum wage bucko.


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## dinosaurdammit (Sep 28, 2012)

vee you are about the DUMBEST most IGNORANT human being ive seen on these forums other than a certain *green vermilingua*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleâ€“female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

not even going to bother trying to disguise the link as anything. I hope sputnik falls on you.


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## Schwimmwagen (Sep 28, 2012)

I've always been of the opinion that men and women are part of some kind of asymmetrical balance.

Women have it shit one way, men have it shit another, men have it good one way, women have it good another.

If you get what I mean.

Like, neither gender is universally worse off than the other. Just in different aspects.


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## Ansitru (Sep 28, 2012)

Vee said:


> -snip-



Educate yourself before you spout your verbal diarrhoea.



Vee said:


> Why is it that when these points are brought up, the  only counterarguments are nothing more than blatant insults rather than  reasoned, polite discussion.



I'll respond to this one because I took the time to read _all_ of your shit though.
You will not get a polite discussion *ever* when you storm into the discussion woefully unprepared and blissfully ignorant of all factors that contribute to the problem.

That and a lot of your drivel needs citation, links to studies and numbers because I dare wager not even half of what you spouted with fancy numbers is even a little bit true.


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## Ozriel (Sep 28, 2012)

Holy long-post, Batman!


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 28, 2012)

Vee, that isn't thinking objectively. That's a freaking novel compiled of egregiously incorrect, embarrassingly ignorant thinking. 

It's also your first post on that account, so I think you know it and just don't want the rest of the forums realizing what a wanker you are.


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## Rotsala (Sep 28, 2012)

Males will probably treat them better hoping that they will get to have sex with them at some point but aside from that/after rejecting them, no.


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## Dreaming (Sep 28, 2012)

The overuse of Why hurts my eyes. 



Vee said:


> Why does women's health get much more attention - *in England, literally 100x more federal funding, ads,* etc. -  when men die about seven years younger than women?



hahaha what? No.


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## Yago (Sep 28, 2012)

Vee said:


> They don't. Don't mix blatant lies from the 70's into your argument, it makes it look suspect.
> 
> And here. We. Go.
> 
> ...



You know, responses in red. I just stopped responding at the orange part, because I got tired of repeating myself.

Citations that prove your assertions, please. 

Also some reveal a bit of double standards. Realize that I never said said that men aren't subject to unfairness. In fact, I said both genders get stereotypes in the *very first response to this thread*.

Fact is, both genders have certain areas they are treated unfairly in.

Oh, and turns out FAF does have a character limit of 25,000 characters. I managed to break it because I had the entirety of your post and my responses in it. I beat it by 1,155 characters.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 28, 2012)

Vee, you are either the lurkiest troll I have ever seen or the saddest, most butthurt newbie to a shitty workplace I've yet to come across.  

The funniest part is that you think a fucking quarter is a badge of honor. I can troll better in my sleep...


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## Oly (Sep 28, 2012)

Just like to point out that, at least in the US, rape is defined as a man forcing sexual relations on a woman. So a man cannot legally be raped. Sexually assaulted, but not technically raped.

On topic: I think that the advantages of being a woman are kinda outweighed by the disadvantaged - workplace discrimination and pay disparity, the assumption by many people that yuo aren't as strong or able to do manual labor, discrimination by the majority of political leaders(the US's wonderful war on women, large chunks of middle-eastern culture still considering women property and inferior in all ways to men)
the advantages are what, you get to stay home and do housework(some advantage), people are somewhat more polite to you(if you live in certain areas of teh world), the law is more likely to take your side in domestic disputes(mostly due to outdated laws, misogyny in the judicial system and the lingering idea that women are weaker than men and must be protected because they can't handle themselves)?

and besides, lots of language implies that being a woman is bad. many people describe being weak or frightened as being a sissy, pussy, etc. 'Feminine' things are considered weak, even if they're actually fucking useful skills and shit every person should know, or things that are actually dominated at least to some extent by men - the most famous and high-paid chefs in teh world are still men IIRC, even though cooking is considered by many to be a feminine thing, the stereotype of 'women belong in teh kitchen' and all that crap.

So yeah. kind of a dumb thread.


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 29, 2012)

Oly said:


> Just like to point out that, at least in the US, rape is defined as a man forcing sexual relations on a woman. So a man cannot legally be raped. Sexually assaulted, but not technically raped.



Yes, they absolutely can. The legal definition, per the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, is "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." That change was made specifically so that men would be included in the definition. Was a Big Damn Deal when it happened because it made the laws regarding sexual assault far more equal.


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## Oly (Sep 29, 2012)

Zuckerdachs said:


> Yes, they absolutely can. The legal definition, per the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, is "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." That change was made specifically so that men would be included in the definition. Was a Big Damn Deal when it happened because it made the laws regarding sexual assault far more equal.





_ahhhhh. _The info I read must have been outdated then.

THE MORE YOU KNOW!!!


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## Shoki (Sep 29, 2012)

I think it's a very mixed bag.
Historically speaking, women have been shafted a lot. (pun not intended) 
Being treated like property, expecting to cater to men, being denied certain rights, etc. 

However, things have been improving, at least where I am in the U.S. Sure, there's still a lot of sexism about, but it's becoming more and more alright for women to break with traditions and stereotypes.

I don't see that nearly as much with men. It seems to be considered wrong more often for a man to act less "masculine" than for a woman to be less "feminine." 

For example, I have been doing childcare for several years. I can tell you that no parent ever got upset that their daughter was playing with the tool set or dressing in the firefighter costume, but God help the little boy that wanted to wear the jewelry or play with dolls. I've been yelled at a few times for allowing stuff like that to happen.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 29, 2012)

Shoki said:


> I think it's a very mixed bag.
> Historically speaking, women have been shafted a lot. (pun not intended)
> Being treated like property, expecting to cater to men, being denied certain rights, etc.
> 
> ...



My parents let me go to my birthday party dressed as a butterfly [when I was some age under 10 that I can't remember], so they didn't seem to mind that 'femininity'. 

I think the discrepency between treating effeminate men as weirder than masculine women is probably because being masculine as a woman means you're empowered and have a strong sense of self confidence, whereas effeminate male behaviour is seen as a 'whoopsie'.


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## Shoki (Sep 29, 2012)

Fallowfox said:


> My parents let me go to my birthday party dressed as a butterfly [when I was some age under 10 that I can't remember], so they didn't seem to mind that 'femininity'.
> 
> I think the discrepency between treating effeminate men as weirder than masculine women is probably because being masculine as a woman means you're empowered and have a strong sense of self confidence, whereas effeminate male behaviour is seen as a 'whoopsie'.



Yes, some people don't care about it (I sure don't), but it _really_ bothers quite a few people. I understand the mindset behind it, I just think it's completely stupid. 

Some of the dumbest things are considered un-masculine too. Like, boys playing playing with baby dolls is unacceptable to a lot of parents. But maybe those little boys are going to grow up to be fathers, why can't they enjoy pretending? Also, at the couple of different places I've worked we've offered things like dance or gymnastics classes for the kids. 99% of the kids that got signed up for those were girls. I talked to a little boy I knew would love gymnastics class (he _loves_ to run, tumble, and roll) and I asked him if we should talk to his parents about getting him signed up. He told me "No, I can't do that. Gymnastics is for girls." 

So, sports like soccer and baseball are for everyone. But gymnastics and dancing are girl-only, apparently. Dumb.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 29, 2012)

Being an effeminate *heterosexual* man is the worst. No woman wants to date someone perceived as weak like that. Leaving aside the other social implications such as getting bullied, much lower chances of getting promoted on the job, etc. You turn into that guy.


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## Shoki (Sep 29, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Being an effeminate *heterosexual* man is the worst. No woman wants to date someone perceived as weak like that. Leaving aside the other social implications such as getting bullied, much lower chances of getting promoted on the job, etc. You turn into that guy.


I can tell you from personal experience that it happens to the more masculine women too.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 29, 2012)

Yeah, it's a real bummer. I'm into stronger, self-reliant chicks too... with some tattoos, and who play the bass or drums, and could tell me what a limited slip differential does and why I should totally buy her one for Christmas... I'm off track aren't I? So yeah, um... nuts to that gender stereotype stuff.

Keep in mind this doesn't just apply to dudes who are completely effeminate or women who are entirely masculine in their mannerisms either. If you just have a few easily identifiable traits that are such you get that label slapped on you. Bronies are the biggest example, but also say... if you play primarily female characters in video games. Or if you're into baking and cooking like my friend is. Making costumes/sewing, your taste in music and television, driving a Toyota Solara, all kinds of things contribute to it.


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## Aleu (Sep 29, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Being an effeminate *heterosexual* man is the worst. No woman wants to date someone perceived as weak like that. Leaving aside the other social implications such as getting bullied, much lower chances of getting promoted on the job, etc. You turn into that guy.



As a female that has dated a homosexual man who is certainly more effeminate than I am, I can attest that to be completely incorrect.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> As a *female* that has dated a *homosexual* man who is certainly more effeminate than I am, I can attest that to be completely incorrect.



Wait... what?


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## dinosaurdammit (Sep 29, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Wait... what?




ive done it too its not outside the vail of oddities. Ive had sex with two homos, its not like its imposabuuuu


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 29, 2012)

You learn something every day...

But when I said "no woman" I meant the majority. Like if you were to poll 1000 women on who they would rather date, Dude McNormalguy or Micah Lightloafers, the results are going to be skewed. Sure, for short term flings it could be okay because they probably have a lot more in common but for a long term relationship, a guy who needs emotional support or can't provide financially is S.O.L.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 29, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> ive done it too its not outside the vail of oddities. Ive had sex with two homos, its not like its imposabuuuu



I've got gay parents...a male and a female. The realm of impossible is my bitch!


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## Bambi (Sep 29, 2012)

moonchylde said:


> I always hold doors open for women, and  sometimes for men, but I won't go out of my way for a man. I always open  the car door for a woman, and I take off my hat when a woman enters the  room.


Now, why is that exactly? 

You sure it had everything to do with your up-bringing, and not just the  fact that being more polite to women also increases your chances of being  noticed by them?


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## CrazyLee (Sep 29, 2012)

Ohh I want to reply to Vee so bad but there's just too much TL;DR there. 

I can kinda get at what the OP's getting at. I figured this would start out with everyone accusing the OP of being sexist or something. He seems to be more talking about the attitude that women are fragile and need to be treated like china (unless they're your wife in which case you can punch them for not making a sandwich :V), and men are tough and agressive and violent and can take whatever abuse they get and should take it without crying or whining.

Sadly sexism and outdated gender roles still exist today and are reinforced by the media and society, like soft (Dove soap, ect) commercials for women, and "manly" commercials like that retarded Dr Pepper 10 calorie commercial (CAUSE 10 CALORIES IS MANLY RITE? :V).

Women still have it tougher than men due to sexism, though. A cis-male will have a far easier time finding a job and will still get paid a lot better than a woman, for example.


The one time I can think of men being expected to be manly and tough tends to come up when an effiminate gay guy is brought up in a conservative household. After the child hits puberty and starts expressing in a more feminine way the father will expect him to "man up" and stop acting like a chick, and I've heard some pretty sad stories of gay guys in the fandom being treated like shit by their fathers (to the point of physical abuse) for being too girly. :C
I've also heard of women having problems in society for being too manly, and being called a dyke or having trouble finding jobs and stuff because of it. Gender roles suck ass.


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## Aleu (Sep 29, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Wait... what?



Yeah. I'm _that_ good.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm a proponent of the "man up" philosophy. There's a difference between being effeminate and being a wimp. It's okay if you cry during an emotional movie if you're also able to explain why the .228 used by NATO forces is a stupid decision. You can cook and clean, but you also need to change your own oil. You can drink white wine one night and drink Jack Daniels the other, dress well but grow a beard, etc.


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## Conker (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm a proponent of the "man up" philosophy. There's a difference between being effeminate and being a wimp. It's okay if you cry during an emotional movie if you're also able to explain why the .228 used by NATO forces is a stupid decision. You can cook and clean, but you also need to change your own oil. You can drink white wine one night and drink Jack Daniels the other, dress well but grow a beard, etc.


You've an interesting set of examples there. I know I can't explain why the .228 used by NATO forces is stupid, but I don't cry during emotional movies, so I guess I'm exempt there. I don't know how to change my own oil, but at least that's a useful skill for people to have. We've just gotten to a point where it's not necessary to know as it's a service that can be done for as little as 20 bucks. 

I agree with you on the "man up" bit though, even if that philosophy/phrasing is inherently sexist, though at this point I'd say its gender neutral. I can't imagine it was coined as a gender neutral term many a year ago tough.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

.228 has no stopping power. You can't legally use a .228 to shoot anything larger than small game while hunting because of the risk of merely wounding the animal and having it escape, which is pretty inhumane, and we're using it to try to take down full grown men on a battlefield? There's something wrong there. We need something bigger, maybe not the 30-06 of the BAR but something that'll put a man down. Changing your own oil is nice because you know 100% it's done right that way. It's okay to pay someone else to change your oil for convenience so long as you know how to do it properly and can watch them do it. You know, so they don't use an impact on the drain plug like a lazy Jiffy Lube dude might, strip the threads in the oil pan, and cause an expensive leak. Or forget to put oil in, I had that happen once.

See, now if anyone gives me crap about bawling my eyes out at the end of Children of Men, I can point to that paragraph as proof I have a pair of testicles. For women it's the exact opposite. She changes her own oil and drinks straight Jack Daniels? If she's an avid watcher of Elton Brown or needs a box of tissues to get through The Land Before Time no one can pull out any derogatory labels. Come to think of it I love myself some Good Eats too... but I have a beard so it's all good.


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## Conker (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> .228 has no stopping power. You can't legally use a .228 to shoot anything larger than small game while hunting because of the risk of merely wounding the animal and having it escape, which is pretty inhumane, and we're using it to try to take down full grown men on a battlefield? There's something wrong there. We need something bigger, maybe not the 30-06 of the BAR but something that'll put a man down. Changing your own oil is nice because you know 100% it's done right that way. It's okay to pay someone else to change your oil for convenience so long as you know how to do it properly and can watch them do it. You know, so they don't use an impact on the drain plug like a lazy Jiffy Lube dude might, strip the threads in the oil pan, and cause an expensive leak. Or forget to put oil in, I had that happen once.
> 
> See, now if anyone gives me crap about bawling my eyes out at the end of Children of Men, I can point to that paragraph as proof I have a pair of testicles. For women it's the exact opposite. She changes her own oil and drinks straight Jack Daniels? If she's an avid watcher of Elton Brown or needs a box of tissues to get through The Land Before Time no one can pull out any derogatory labels. Come to think of it I love myself some Good Eats too... but I have a beard so it's all good.


Wouldn't it be easier to point to your beard or your testicles to prove that you are a man? I don't think anyone would doubt your claims there, even if you do know something about guns and cars.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm a proponent of the "man up" philosophy. There's a difference between being effeminate and being a wimp. It's okay if you cry during an emotional movie if you're also able to explain why the .228 used by NATO forces is a stupid decision. You can cook and clean, but you also need to change your own oil. You can drink white wine one night and drink Jack Daniels the other, *dress well but grow a beard, etc*.



Even the girls...?


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## Oly (Sep 30, 2012)

How is cooking and cleaning effeminate? That is fucking _stupid. _Shit needs to be clean and orderly to be efficient and not get ruined; food needs to get made. So being lazy is manly? Most people don't enjoy cleaning, and cooking is fun as hell and can be quite difficult. Plus, I will again point out that most of the worlds best chefs are and historically have been considered men.

I love cooking and don't have a clue how to do anything with a car other than drive it(and not manual transmission, i understand the concept but have never driven one); I'm also hairy as hell and have a long full beard and look completely masculine. I often dress what I consider well - button up shirts with a vest, all prim and neat, combed hair and beard - although by other people's standards maybe not so much. I also know dick all about guns. I barely ever drink because it isn't usually very fun to me - although when I do choose to my preference is vodka or whiskey neat. I hate beer. I have a strong interest in looking at pictures of cute corgis and shibas, and a moderate interest in fashion, as well as being able to sew decently well. I know a fair bit about using makeup. I've dyed my hair, more than once. I've even on occasion worn feminine clothing, although it's never been a consistent habit.

I'm also into romance, don't like boasting about sex like I've seen implied men are supposed to, I tend to be submissive(though not exclusively) in relationships, I think discussing emotion is important in a relationship...

Does this make me effeminate still? Do i need to man up? do I score enough 'masculinity points'? where does the buck stop? if i was less masculine looking would it change things? if I had a more or less feminine voice? if I dressed more neatly/was more fastidious with my grooming? would I still be masculine in a dress? would I still be feminine in a well worn pair of work overalls?

It's stupid to classify most things into being masculine and feminine as a rule. Being emotional isn't feminine. Being able to keep your living space clean or make yourself a meal that requires more than pushing buttons on a microwave, that's not feminine. And knowing shit about cars or technology or guns isn't masculine. If you disagree, you're an asshole. Having tits and a vagina is feminine; having a dick and testes is masculine. Everything else is wholly fucking subjective.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 30, 2012)

Oly said:


> Having tits and a vagina is feminine; having a dick and testes is masculine. Everything else is wholly fucking subjective.



...I will have your babies, Oly. This ^ all the way.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

Oly said:


> How is cooking and cleaning effeminate? That is fucking _stupid. _Shit needs to be clean and orderly to be efficient and not get ruined; food needs to get made. So being lazy is manly? Most people don't enjoy cleaning, and cooking is fun as hell and can be quite difficult. Plus, I will again point out that most of the worlds best chefs are and historically have been considered men.
> 
> I love cooking and don't have a clue how to do anything with a car other than drive it(and not manual transmission, i understand the concept but have never driven one); I'm also hairy as hell and have a long full beard and look completely masculine. I often dress what I consider well - button up shirts with a vest, all prim and neat, combed hair and beard - although by other people's standards maybe not so much. I also know dick all about guns. I barely ever drink because it isn't usually very fun to me - although when I do choose to my preference is vodka or whiskey neat. I hate beer. I have a strong interest in looking at pictures of cute corgis and shibas, and a moderate interest in fashion, as well as being able to sew decently well. I know a fair bit about using makeup. I've dyed my hair, more than once. I've even on occasion worn feminine clothing, although it's never been a consistent habit.
> 
> ...



I'm a self-proclaimed asshole, I prefer the moniker dago or punk though. As a man, there's just certain things you gotta know. How to jump a car, change a tire, fix a busted electrical outlet, fight and more importantly when to fight, lose gracefully, hold your liquor, stand up to and for friends, forgive enemies, you gotta watch sports, drink beer, etc. Yeah, not everyone is going to know everything of course, but you gotta at least take a whack at it. We live in a culture where personal responsibility and independence are casualties lying in a ditch. If you have the personal responsibility and self reliance covered, I couldn't care less if you dressed like Bruno, let alone just acted effeminate. When it gets right down to it, that's what being a man is about, taking care of yourself and being able to look out for others. That and a pair of testicles.


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## Oly (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm a self-proclaimed asshole, I prefer the moniker dago or punk though. As a man, there's just certain things you gotta know. How to jump a car, change a tire, fix a busted electrical outlet, fight and more importantly when to fight, lose gracefully, hold your liquor, stand up to and for friends, forgive enemies, you gotta watch sports, drink beer, etc. Yeah, not everyone is going to know everything of course, but you gotta at least take a whack at it. We live in a culture where personal responsibility and independence are casualties lying in a ditch. If you have the personal responsibility and self reliance covered, I couldn't care less if you dressed like Bruno, let alone just acted effeminate. When it gets right down to it, that's what being a man is about, taking care of yourself and being able to look out for others. That and a pair of testicles.



Taking care of yourself and others and taking responsibility is what being a _good person _is about, male or female or something in between. EVERYONE should know basic survival skills and how to maintain and fix things and how avoid being an ego and blah blah.

I don't know the first three things(could probably figure the first two out given some time, third one I'd be too scared of fucking things up further or killing myself to try on my own), if I was to get in a fight I would play it dirty as fuck - nut shots, cheap shots, eye gouging, kicking when down - because if I get in a fight I just want to end it as quickly as possible and make damn sure they're not getting up to come after me again(thankfully, never had to put that idea into practice, hopefully never will because I'd feel awful about harming another person in such a way), I don't know how well I can really hold my liquor since I only ever drink until I feel lightly buzzed and then stop(but I can get wasted as fuck on psychedelics and pot and still handle myself and remain lucid and responsible for my actions), had to stand up for friends once or twice when in grade school but have avoided being in situations that would require standing up to people since then, forgive shit but certainly don't fucking forget or give second chances, sports are dull as hell to watch - although I don't mind playing futbol - and I've already said how I feel about beer...

So I'm not a real man then? I fail most of your stated list. :U

also, never heard dago before but being a punk doesn't mean being an asshole. if anything true punk is about respecting people unless they demonstrate they aren't deserving of it. being an asshole is being overly crass, hostile and/or cruel for no reason. punk is about being yourself in the face of assholes telling you what to be.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

I have no respect for people who fight dirty, so I have no respect for you. Usually a fight is nothing major, a drunken brawl or a shoving/fistfight over something. If you fight dirty in a fight it's going to escalate *fast*. Going for the eyes and kicking in the nuts gets knives and guns drawn, bystanders get hostile, you will get your ass kicked. I've never gone looking for a fight but I've had to deal with them and I've never fought dirty, even when I ended up losing. Fortunately no one's tried doing that to me either. Never do that unless it's absolutely life or death because it proves you're inexperienced and it's the first thing you're opponent is prepared for you to do. That combined means it'll probably not work and you'll have bought yourself a one way trip to the emergency room or worse.

I hate beer and I don't like sports. When I was in PA visiting my friend his dad bought a case of beer, handed me a cold one, and invited us to watch the game with him. I didn't say "Oh, I don't like beer" or "I'm not a football fan" I took the beer, sat down, and shot the breeze for a few hours about life while watching an Eagles game. I respect the man and I was grateful he was trying to include me in something he enjoyed, and ya know what, I had a good time. Something tells me you wouldn't have done the same thing.

Are you a real man? Not for me to say. Obviously it's a rhetorical question so I'm assuming you certainly think you are.

As I already said, you lost my respect. And don't go trying to define what punk is, you're nailing jello to a board.


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 30, 2012)

I'm not too fond of beards, hate beer , can't stand watching sports and can't fix a busted electrical outlet either.
Clearly I should have been born with a vagina, huh teenage?
Do you also believe girls are required to enjoy soap operas , ballet, know how to walk in high heels or some other shit to be called women? Any requirements at all to be perceived as a real woman in your eyes?
If not, what's up with the stupid double standards?


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## Oly (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I have no respect for people who fight dirty, so I have no respect for you. Usually a fight is nothing major, a drunken brawl or a shoving/fistfight over something. If you fight dirty in a fight it's going to escalate *fast*. Going for the eyes and kicking in the nuts gets knives and guns drawn, bystanders get hostile, you will get your ass kicked. I've never gone looking for a fight but I've had to deal with them and I've never fought dirty, even when I ended up losing. Fortunately no one's tried doing that to me either. Never do that unless it's absolutely life or death because it proves you're inexperienced and it's the first thing you're opponent is prepared for you to do. That combined means it'll probably not work and you'll have bought yourself a one way trip to the emergency room or worse.
> 
> I hate beer and I don't like sports. When I was in PA visiting my friend his dad bought a case of beer, handed me a cold one, and invited us to watch the game with him. I didn't say "Oh, I don't like beer" or "I'm not a football fan" I took the beer, sat down, and shot the breeze for a few hours about life while watching an Eagles game. I respect the man and I was grateful he was trying to include me in something he enjoyed, and ya know what, I had a good time. Something tells me you wouldn't have done the same thing.
> 
> ...



Yeah well in all cases I'd rather run than fight. I don't give a fuck if it gets me called a coward or any bullshit like that. If I'm fighting back, it's because it's a last resort, and if it's a last resort, fuck you I'm not being fair. I've dealt with drunk, pointlessly aggressive assholes plenty before, and have managed to avoid getting into fights. The very few 'fights' I've been in were when I was much much younger(last time I was like 14, 15 I think), and got my ass soundly kicked for mouthing off when I should have just walked away because there was no reason to even respond. If I hadn't felt so cocky and wanted to snark off I wouldn't have gotten into any fights.
So I learned pretty fast that if a fight _can_ be avoided, it _should_ be, and if it can't it's probably in my best interest to end it as swiftly and permanently as possible. Also: I did take some limited martial arts when I was younger and one of the first things I was taught is that if you can't run away from a situation, you should end it as quickly and surely as you can, by any means necessary, and _then_ run.
I also don't consider someone shoving me as a fight. If someone shoves me because they're drunk and pushy, I'll do my best to ignore and escape the situation as swiftly as possible. It's never come to that because I just avoid drunk people and the kind of areas they're likely to be as much as I can, and I keep to myself in public unless I have good reason not to.
Hell, I have busked many times on teh streets of Toronto at 3am, and the worst shit that happened was a drunk guy trying to hit my snare with his dick. I just pulled it away, smiled and said 'no man, not cool.' he offered to pay and I said 'nope, sorry, no cocks allowed on my snare.' It was laughed off and all was fine.

Besides, I live in Canada, people don't carry guns here. Knives maybe, but I'm fairly confident in my ability to dodge and disarm if I absolutely have to; that's if running is _absolutely_ not an option. I have studied unarmed defense against armed attackers, because I am overly paranoid about being jumped; I even worry about it now in a tiny town with virtually no crime rate that I know of. So no, I'm not _completely_ inexperienced, I just have no mercy for anyone who decides it's a good idea to attack me. And part of the reason is _because_ in such a situation I know I am just going to go for the most efficient incapacitation I feel I can get away with, no matter how cheap it is, since if it comes to blows in my mind I've already failed at doing what I consider the honorable thing and avoiding or diffusing the situation prior to violence. And I know I'm probably going to get very angry very fast, at myself as much as my attacker, and that makes me liable to kick their fucking face in while they're down both out of anger and to make sure they fucking stay down.

second paragraph: I'd have politely declined the beer, said thank you for the offer, and still joined them if it was a necessity in the situation. I'd probably have been fairly quiet the whole time since I'm usually not very talkative around people I don't know; I usually only respond to questions, chip in as briefly as I can if I know something relevant to the conversation, and don't usually try and push the conversation in directions I might enjoy if they're not headed that way naturally, since I'm aware my interests are, to most people, probably very strange, boring, or something they have no clue about that would be way too awkward to bring them up to speed on in the course of a normal conversation. 
Most people don't care or have the requisite knowledge to discuss the nuances of high distortion on various types of kick drums and their usage in various kinds of music, or the details of time-travel mechanics in Homestuck and the implications thereof on the plot, and I have no interests in trying to make them care or try to give an in-depth explanation - I've gone that conversational path before and it has never ended in anything but me feeling horribly awkward and the other people in the conversation commandeering it back into shit they actually care about or understand. 
So yeah, out of respect I just keep quiet and only interject when I have to or have something I feel isn't horribly awkward to express.
Also: no amount of respect for anyone is going to make me drink a beverage I think smells and tastes like vomit; if that's an offense to someone that's their problem, not mine, and they should be able to respect that I don't enjoy alcohol and when i do it's sure as shit not fucking beer. Speaking domestically of course; if I was to be abroad in a different culture I wasn't familiar with, I'd do my best to accept hospitality as much as I could. 

And: it was as rhetorical a question as you are willing to treat it is, and no I don't think I'm a 'real' man because I don't believe in such nonsense; you're a man if identify as a man, or were born a man biologically and have no desire to change that. Anything else is bullshit posturing or sexism, be it latent or willful. I'm as much a man as the dirtiest beer-drinkiest sports-watchiest ex-marines mechanic and welder, who is as much of a man as the most petite flaming gay fashion designer delicate flower, who is as much a man as an m-to-f transgender who honestly feels they should have been born with a dick instead of a vagina.

And punk is what I say it is because I fucking say so; _that's _punk. ;3


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

It's 5am, I'm half sloshed and full of misguided disgruntlement.

Really though about half of everything I've laid out here is just me trying to compensate for the fact that I do some pretty girly things (watch ponies, sew costumes, etc). It's like when I was watching an episode on youtube and my room mate was freaking out because he couldn't understand why a guy would watch a show for little girls about colorful ponies. Obviously I coulda told him to take a hike cause I wasn't bothering him in any way and he was being an ass, but instead I started talking about cars with him. It proved I still had "manly" interests and he wasn't stuck with a fruit cup for a room mate. Once his mind was at ease it opened the dialog as to why I actually enjoy watching MLP and he hasn't bothered me about it since. And also, it's like when I was drinking beer and watching football with my friend and his dad. I didn't like the football, and Rolling Rock isn't a great oat soda, but I enjoyed the time the beer and the football gave us together. Had I refused one or the other I would have been missing out.

Most of what I spouted off were just things I keep on hand for just such occasions. As I said, most effeminate features are viewed as weakness and strangeness in men. If you're willing to go that extra mile to prove you're not, no one can talk s*** about you. In a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary but hey, I'm a hypocrite to the point of being a realist.

As for women, I really have no idea, but I'd assume the same principles would apply. If a woman was working on an electrical outlet or something and her room mate was a little weirded out, bringing up the gymnastics competitions during the Olympics or something would probably resolve any tension and maybe get the other person involved.



Oly said:


> Yeah well in all cases I'd rather run than fight. I don't give a fuck if it gets me called a coward or any bullshit like that. If I'm fighting back, it's because it's a last resort, and if it's a last resort, fuck you I'm not being fair. I've dealt with drunk, pointlessly aggressive assholes plenty before, and have managed to avoid getting into fights. The very few 'fights' I've been in were when I was much much younger(last time I was like 14, 15 I think), and got my ass soundly kicked for mouthing off when I should have just walked away because there was no reason to even respond. If I hadn't felt so cocky and wanted to snark off I wouldn't have gotten into any fights.
> So I learned pretty fast that if a fight _can_ be avoided, it _should_ be, and if it can't it's probably in my best interest to end it as swiftly and permanently as possible. Also: I did take some limited martial arts when I was younger and one of the first things I was taught is that if you can't run away from a situation, you should end it as quickly and surely as you can, by any means necessary, and _then_ run.
> I also don't consider someone shoving me as a fight. If someone shoves me because they're drunk and pushy, I'll do my best to ignore and escape the situation as swiftly as possible. It's never come to that because I just avoid drunk people and the kind of areas they're likely to be as much as I can, and I keep to myself in public unless I have good reason not to.
> Hell, I have busked many times on teh streets of Toronto at 3am, and the worst shit that happened was a drunk guy trying to hit my snare with his dick. I just pulled it away, smiled and said 'no man, not cool.' he offered to pay and I said 'nope, sorry, no cocks allowed on my snare.' It was laughed off and all was fine.
> ...



I hope you never get in a real fight then, cause lemme tell you, a shot to the nuts *never* works on a guy who's ready to fight. All it does is get your face in the pavement. I too took martial arts and that's one reason I never start fights, I've caught my temper more times than I can count. I also grew up outside of Philadelphia and Richmond respectively so yeah, I probably had different things to worry about than in East Jesus, Canada.



> second paragraph: I'd have politely declined the beer, said thank you for the offer, and still joined them if it was a necessity in the situation. I'd probably have been fairly quiet the whole time since I'm usually not very talkative around people I don't know; I usually only respond to questions, chip in as briefly as I can if I know something relevant to the conversation, and don't usually try and push the conversation in directions I might enjoy if they're not headed that way naturally, since I'm aware my interests are, to most people, probably very strange, boring, or something they have no clue about that would be way too awkward to bring them up to speed on in the course of a normal conversation.
> Most people don't care or have the requisite knowledge to discuss the nuances of high distortion on various types of kick drums and their usage in various kinds of music, or the details of time-travel mechanics in Homestuck and the implications thereof on the plot, and I have no interests in trying to make them care or try to give an in-depth explanation - I've gone that conversational path before and it has never ended in anything but me feeling horribly awkward and the other people in the conversation commandeering it back into shit they actually care about or understand.
> So yeah, out of respect I just keep quiet and only interject when I have to or have something I feel isn't horribly awkward to express.
> Also: no amount of respect for anyone is going to make me drink a beverage I think smells and tastes like vomit; if that's an offense to someone that's their problem, not mine, and they should be able to respect that I don't enjoy alcohol and when i do it's sure as shit not fucking beer. Speaking domestically of course; if I was to be abroad in a different culture I wasn't familiar with, I'd do my best to accept hospitality as much as I could.



So you'd be an antisocial wallflower. Chances are good you don't have a lot of people's dads offering you beers anyway. That being said, it's pretty offensive from the point of view that you wouldn't be able to make a personal sacrifice to partake in something the person obviously is trying to treat you to, especially something as trivial as not liking the taste of beer or what's on the tv. It's not about the beer, it's not about the football, it's about the experience, and it's not complete without those two factors. In a sense, it is a different culture. You probably aren't around a lot of pureblooded Italians or blue collar folks.



> And: it was as rhetorical a question as you are willing to treat it is, and no I don't think I'm a 'real' man because I don't believe in such nonsense; you're a man if identify as a man, or were born a man biologically and have no desire to change that. Anything else is bullshit posturing or sexism, be it latent or willful. I'm as much a man as the dirtiest beer-drinkiest sports-watchiest ex-marines mechanic and welder, who is as much of a man as the most petite flaming gay fashion designer delicate flower, who is as much a man as an m-to-f transgender who honestly feels they should have been born with a dick instead of a vagina.



I don't buy that last bit.



> And punk is what I say it is because I fucking say so; _that's _punk. ;3



I bet you listen to Anti-Flag, don't you?


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## Conker (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm a self-proclaimed asshole.


I don't get this idea that if you embrace the fact that you're an asshole, then it's totally cool to be an asshole. It isn't. People generally don't like being around assholes because, fuckin shocker, they are assholes. 



			
				Oly said:
			
		

> And: it was as rhetorical a question as you are willing to treat it is,  and no I don't think I'm a 'real' man because I don't believe in such  nonsense; you're a man if identify as a man, or were born a man  biologically and have no desire to change that. Anything else is  bullshit posturing or sexism, be it latent or willful. I'm as much a man  as the dirtiest beer-drinkiest sports-watchiest ex-marines mechanic and  welder, who is as much of a man as the most petite flaming gay fashion  designer delicate flower, who is as much a man as an m-to-f transgender  who honestly feels they should have been born with a dick instead of a  vagina.


Yeah. This. 

The social pressures that define men and women aren't as arbitrary as something like language, but they are still fairly arbitrary. Yes, guys are generally bigger than women and therefore do more physical kinds of labor, but in the day where technology has invaded every part of our lives, that no longer needs to be the case. 

Something as common as drinking beer or watching sports really shouldn't be attributed to manly when women are just as apt to do both of those things. Sports are gender neutral. Drinking is gender neutral. I can see why sports might be chalked up to manliness as the most watched sports are played by men, but that doesn't mean they are exclusive to men. If they were, they'd be making a lot less money. I've no idea why drinking and partying are "manly" though. Getting smashed is something anyone can enjoy if they've the mind to. Likewise, not drinking or partying shouldn't be considered feminine because some people simply don't like to drink (my brother for example) or party. Abstaining is also gender neutral. 



			
				TeenageAngst said:
			
		

> Really though about half of everything I've laid out here is just me  trying to compensate for the fact that I do some pretty girly things  (watch ponies, sew costumes, etc). It's like when I was watching an  episode on youtube and my room mate was freaking out because he couldn't  understand why a guy would watch a show for little girls about colorful  ponies. Obviously I coulda told him to take a hike cause I wasn't  bothering him in any way and he was being an ass, but instead I started  talking about cars with him. It proved I still had "manly" interests and  he wasn't stuck with a fruit cup for a room mate. Once his mind was at  ease it opened the dialog as to why I actually enjoy watching MLP and he  hasn't bothered me about it since.


You know, that conversation would have been a lot shorter if you had skipped the middle man and simply explained why you liked the show. Somehow, I bet the outcome (he hasn't bothered you about it since) would have been the same.


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 30, 2012)

Gymnastics? Who the fuck watches gymnastics?


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## Aleu (Sep 30, 2012)

To me, guys that feel the need to be aggressive and fight seem less worthy of being "men" than men that don't. It's like they feel the need to compensate for something like those guys with the big and seriously fucking* LOUD* trucks.


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## dinosaurdammit (Sep 30, 2012)

Zuckerdachs said:


> Gymnastics? Who the fuck watches gymnastics?




i will cut you >:I


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## Ilayas (Sep 30, 2012)

As to the OP's question.  Yes and no.  I've worked jobs were my co-workers/bosses have treated be better because I am female and I've worked jobs were I have been treated worst because I am female.  The same holds true for online/offline interactions with random people/friends. It really depends on who I am with and what the situation is.  Over all though I'd have to say the good and the bad probably balance out in the end.


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## sateva9822 (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> In certain aspects, yes. I don't think a female will ever have to worry about being arrested for causing domestic violence, regardless of the severity.
> 
> In other aspects, no. Women generally speaking aren't as well paid. Although this is primarily due to the fact that women have only recently started to enter the professional workforce en masse and all those recently employed experienced a pay decrease, the gap does exist.



Many women have been arrested and even charged for violent domestic disputes.


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 30, 2012)

sateva9822 said:


> Many women have been arrested and even charged for violent domestic disputes.




Yup. According to the literature my job distributes, official charges against women make up about 15% of DV cases. Actual numbers of complaints make up about 40%*, but men are less likely to pursue legal action to the end, and the amount of resources available to men (shelters, counselors, court advocates, legal aid etc) are _severely_ lacking.

*As a side note, violence doesn't have to be physical, and a lot of people don't realize that.


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## zarroc89 (Sep 30, 2012)

Stupid genger rols and all the BS.  I treat everyone the same.


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## 4legdmonstr (Sep 30, 2012)

zarroc89 said:


> Stupid genger rols and all the BS.  I treat everyone the same.


Yes, this!

And TeenageAngst, you are your name it seems. It's like your setting the world back 50 years! I don't do any of the things you say a man should be able to do- so am I not worthy as a human being?? This is why I made the thread to begin with- people like you! Listen to what Conker says- saying you're an asshole is not an excuse. Neither is being "sloshed". I wouldn't expect this stuff to come out of a brony's mouth, but, as you say, you are over compensating. Learn not to be ashamed of yourself!


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## Atreyu (Sep 30, 2012)

Grass is always greener and this is all subjective and circumstantial imho
This thread could go on forever in a masochistic spiral of who has it worse
No matter what you do: not everyone will agree with you, not everyone will like you, you will never conform to every stereotype placed on you since almost all of them contradict at some point.


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## Oly (Sep 30, 2012)

teenageangst: don't feel like another in depth reply so meh this'll be short.

I hope I don't get into fights too. that's why I avoid them and if need be run like the fuckin wind.

I don't know if wallflower is the right word for me, I do like to be social and stuff when I'm feeling comfortable with the people around me, but I realize that the things I like to talk about and whatever are boring or difficult to understand for most people. So I save it for the people I know will care or who I feel might actually be interested. Anti-social, can't argue that. I think most people are boring.
And no, I don't think I've ever been offered a beer by someone's dad. In fact I could probably count the number of beers I've been offered on both hands.

I don't listen to anti-flag. I don't listen to very much punk at all; too simple for my taste, I usually favor music that is complex. I do love folk-punk. And some stuff that would be considered hardcore or related to punk; At The Drive-In, Melt Banana, Fugazi, Daughters... But not really anything most people would think of as straight-up punk.

And I guess a big difference between us is that I don't put much stock into what people think of me. If it's something other than petty insults or bullshit posturing I consider it and file it away. If it is petty bullshit I ignore it. I enjoy what I enjoy regardless of whether anyone agrees with it; if someone happens to, cool.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

4legdmonstr said:


> Yes, this!
> 
> And TeenageAngst, you are your name it seems. It's like your setting the world back 50 years! I don't do any of the things you say a man should be able to do- so am I not worthy as a human being?? This is why I made the thread to begin with- people like you! Listen to what Conker says- saying you're an asshole is not an excuse. Neither is being "sloshed". I wouldn't expect this stuff to come out of a brony's mouth, but, as you say, you are over compensating. Learn not to be ashamed of yourself!



I'm seriously starting to think I must live in some alternate dimension where people are expected to have some baseline level of knowledge before setting foot in the real world. If your truck dies on the freeway and you veer onto the shoulder, how are you going to know whether to call a tow truck because the engine seized or call a neighbor/friend/parent because the alternator finally gave out and you need to limp it to the shop? Thats hundreds of dollars in difference right there. How are you supposed to salvage a heating bin on the job by gutting an old broken one and soldering new switch in before rush hits in an hour? Are you going to say to your boss, "well, I didn't know how to replace the switch so we couldn't use the bin, so there goes half our inventory"? What if a tree comes down across your driveway and you need to bust out the chainsaw to chop it up and get it out of the way? The city and power companies only do it for you if it's on the road of obstructing their work. How about getting caught on in a blizzard and having to get home down dangerous roads? It takes a sensitive foot to feather the clutch just right to keep traction.

We had one guy at work, the battery died in his Volvo, he just needed to jump it. He didn't have cables, so my boss said he'd bring his truck around because he has a set. All the guy needed to do was pop the hood. He didn't know how to pop the hood of his own car and said he was afraid to try because he might break something. My boss had to do it for him and then jump the car for him. I never saw my boss so disappointed. He came in shaking his head, said he wondered how the guy managed to take care of himself. He was 28 too, not like he was some 16 year old just learning to drive.

What world do you people live in where you're not expected to know and do this stuff?


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## Conker (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm seriously starting to think I must live in some alternate dimension where people are expected to have some baseline level of knowledge before setting foot in the real world. If your truck dies on the freeway and you veer onto the shoulder, how are you going to know whether to call a tow truck because the engine seized or call a neighbor/friend/parent because the alternator finally gave out and you need to limp it to the shop? Thats hundreds of dollars in difference right there. How are you supposed to salvage a heating bin on the job by gutting an old broken one and soldering new switch in before rush hits in an hour? Are you going to say to your boss, "well, I didn't know how to replace the switch so we couldn't use the bin, so there goes half our inventory"? What if a tree comes down across your driveway and you need to bust out the chainsaw to chop it up and get it out of the way? The city and power companies only do it for you if it's on the road of obstructing their work. How about getting caught on in a blizzard and having to get home down dangerous roads? It takes a sensitive foot to feather the clutch just right to keep traction.
> 
> We had one guy at work, the battery died in his Volvo, he just needed to jump it. He didn't have cables, so my boss said he'd bring his truck around because he has a set. All the guy needed to do was pop the hood. He didn't know how to pop the hood of his own car and said he was afraid to try because he might break something. My boss had to do it for him and then jump the car for him. I never saw my boss so disappointed. He came in shaking his head, said he wondered how the guy managed to take care of himself. He was 28 too, not like he was some 16 year old just learning to drive.
> 
> What world do you people live in where you're not expected to know and do this stuff?


Here's the problem. You're assuming that all of that information is masculine and that all guys should know it, when in reality, everyone should know it. Women should know how to diagnose a broken car just as well as men. There are no gender issues to this information, but you're attributing it to "a man should know this." My mom knows more about cars than I do, and thank bloody fuck for that!

There are plenty of lessons and facts that people should know because that knowledge will help them in a jam, be it fixing cars or toilets or knowing what plants will cause burning and itchiness when hiking and which ones won't. The problem is, society is slowly moving away from this being useful day-to-day knowledge. That's not a gender issue though, that's a technology one. That's a "I'll call 'the guy' when this breaks" mentality, as that's more convenient.

I think the reason people have less and less practical knowledge these days stems from the Internet and smartphones. I don't need to know how to fix my car right now because it runs fine. If it starts fucking up, I can Google it. Stupid logic when placed down, but so are most beliefs of that sort. But, that's not a gender problem.


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

See, it's great if women know that stuff. It's not expected though. No one says, "Man, that girl is helpless, she doesn't even know the difference between drum and disc brakes." If you're a male and have to "call the guy", you better at least have a good idea of what's wrong and know that you're calling the guy because you're in over your head. I've been laughed at for not changing my own CV joints. I could ignore it, but then I'm only admitting that yeah, I don't know much practical knowledge, and willful ignorance isn't cool. I could not hang out with people like that but I'd rather not be alone. The only other option is to learn, and so I learn when I can. I man up, just like everyone else.


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## Zuckerdachs (Sep 30, 2012)

Yeah, god forbid someone consider different things "important" or "useful." I sure do wish my cardiologist spent more time under the hood of his car, because then I would feel safe knowing a REAL man was digging around in my chest.


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## Aleu (Sep 30, 2012)

So people are supposed to automatically know about cars?


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## Conker (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> See, it's great if women know that stuff. It's not expected though. No one says, "Man, that girl is helpless, she doesn't even know the difference between drum and disc brakes." If you're a male and have to "call the guy", you better at least have a good idea of what's wrong and know that you're calling the guy because you're in over your head. I've been laughed at for not changing my own CV joints. I could ignore it, but then I'm only admitting that yeah, I don't know much practical knowledge, and willful ignorance isn't cool. I could not hang out with people like that but I'd rather not be alone. The only other option is to learn, and so I learn when I can. I man up, just like everyone else.


If it's expected that men know this kind of general knowledge, why isn't it expected that women know it as well? 

I don't really know why it's manly to know how to fix a car. Everyone drives cars. It's good knowledge to have, but it's outside of gender and sexual roles, or it should be. My car doesn't give a fuck if I fix it, if a woman mechanic fixes it, or if a male mechanic fixes it. It's a car, and cars don't think. 

My guess is that this all came about when women were expected to stay home and cook and clean and guys went to work. Guys were the ones that drove, and most houses could only afford the one car anyway. Thus, they needed to know how to diagnose a problem because they were the ones using the car. Thing is, that's no longer the case. So yeah. I don't disagree with you that knowing how to diagnose and fix your car is good knowledge to have. It's great knowledge to have. But it has nothing to do with this thread because it's not a gender issue. 

I don't want to say that making it a gender issue is sexist, but damn, I can sure connect some dots and argue that it is.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I could not hang out with people like that but I'd rather not be alone.



Might I ask why not? Not for nothing of course...


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## Atreyu (Sep 30, 2012)

I think TeenageAngst is trying to say that girls aren't expected to know even minor repairs on a car nearly as much as men are. 
But does that mean that, even in this situation, men are in a worse situation? Sure, there's pressure on us to know these things (perhaps even unfairly) but what does that say to females?
"Oh, it's okay to be stupid because you're a girl and all that matters is your pretty face and youth, not your brain~ Leave thinking to us men"


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

Conker said:


> If it's expected that men know this kind of general knowledge, why isn't it expected that women know it as well?
> 
> I don't really know why it's manly to know how to fix a car. Everyone drives cars. It's good knowledge to have, but it's outside of gender and sexual roles, or it should be. My car doesn't give a fuck if I fix it, if a woman mechanic fixes it, or if a male mechanic fixes it. It's a car, and cars don't think.
> 
> ...



I guess I'm wrong then. No one should be expected to know practical knowledge any more than anyone else. I guess when my friends bust my balls for not knowing how to change a valve cover gasket I'll just mention I can load a sewing machine, something they probably can't do. I bet that'll show them, huh?

No, it'll probably make it 10x worse.

This is the way of the modern world.



> Might I ask why not? Not for nothing of course...




I don't understand what you're asking.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 30, 2012)

Atreyu said:


> I think TeenageAngst is trying to say that girls aren't expected to know even minor repairs on a car nearly as much as men are.
> But does that mean that, even in this situation, men are in a worse situation? Sure, there's pressure on us to know these things (perhaps even unfairly) but what does that say to females?
> "Oh, it's okay to be stupid because you're a girl and all that matters is your pretty face and youth, not your brain~ Leave thinking to us men"



Well, yes he is saying that, but I'm looking deeper into his need to measure up to the expectations of his peers. For instance, TA has stated in his friend's father beer story that the approval of other men is of utmost importance to him. So much so that he felt like changing subjects when a roomate found out he was a brony...and then he had a homophobe moment as well but that neither here nor there. 

The point is, TA is operating on John Wayne movie logic and not the real world. That fair fight stuff especially  

TA it seems you very much fall victim to peer pressure. Something most self-actualized adults couldn't care less about.

Edit: @TA: Oh, well pretty much this ^ stuff. Do you feel a man isn't really a man unless other men approve?


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## Conker (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I guess I'm wrong then. No one should be expected to know practical knowledge any more than anyone else. I guess when my friends bust my balls for not knowing how to change a valve cover gasket I'll just mention I can load a sewing machine, something they probably can't do. I bet that'll show them, huh?
> 
> No, it'll probably make it 10x worse.
> 
> This is the way of the modern world.


The point I've been trying to make over the last few posts has zoomed so far over your head that it's in the stratosphere chillin with weather balloons.


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## Oly (Sep 30, 2012)

I don't know shit about cars because I've never had a chance to learn it. I've never owned one. Never had a chance to go to schooling or courses for it. And in my own time I find other things far more interesting to study, like music and art. Any time my parents vehicle broke down, my dad either got a friend to help him or took it to a shop; the few times I did help it was pretty much just holding a light because I didn't know what I was doing and he wanted to jsut get it done, hence no slowing down to explain things.

I've also never worked anywhere I was expected to know how to solder. I tried learning that on my own mind you because I was interested in building guitar gear, but my dad's soldering iron was a piece of shit that didn't heat up properly and I couldn't afford to buy one that actually works. So yeah if I'm on the job and something breaks, I'm not gonna know how to fix it, because that's not my damn job.

If a tree was to fall across my driveway, well I don't _own_ a chainsaw and my family never did either, so knowing how to use one wouldn't do me much good there would it?


All that aside, it's fucking stupid that people expect men to know that stuff and women not to. THAT'S the point; this isn't _manly shit, _it's _shit that anyone should know._ And _expecting_ people to know _anything_ is a dick move. You have no fucking clue what a person's experience and ability in life has been. Maybe their parents sheltered them like hell and they never had a chance to learn things. Maybe they have a very narrow field of skills and they just don't understand things outside of that. OR maybe they're a 20 year old small framed female who looks frail and delicate but has worked as a mechanic, a snake wrangle, a lumberjack, in a print shop and on a cruise ship as a gourmet chef. You have no way of knowing so you shouldn't bloody well assume.

 I don't expect people to know what I mean when I say 'alternate picking a riff in B major from the 5th to the 3rd string, doing a pedal tone on the B string every third note, ending with a sweep down from teh 1st string to the 6th', unless they told me they've studied music theory. So unless I tell you I've studied as a mechanic or even owned a car for 8 years, you shouldn't fucking well expect me to know how to repair or maintain a vehicle.


There's a LOT of things I wish I knew or was skilled at, from skilled trades to trivia about things to cooking to outdoors skills to quantum fucking mechanics(not bloody likely since I'm weak at math). Except you are limited by the experience you've had and the avenues you've chosen to pursue out of the choices you've had. I'd love to be able to like diagnose an engine problem by only listening to it and know immediately how to fix it; I've never had a chance to learn and there's literally 10 or 20 other things at any given point in time I'd also like to go do or learn. But I do know how to compose and mix music, how to set up and calibrate a studio space, how to garden hydroponically, how to build a skateboard ramp. Not the necessarily most practical things, but it's the skillset I have.

And also, car shit is only practical_ if you own a vehicle_. Which not everyone does or wishes too. I wouldn't want one if I didn't now live in a town 110km away from the next nearest town; when I was in a city I could walk or use public transit. When I DO get my own vehicle, well then I'm gonna have the chance and a reason to learn about it aren't I?


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## Hinalle K. (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I guess I'm wrong then. No one should be expected to know practical knowledge any more than anyone else. I guess when my friends bust my balls for not knowing how to change a valve cover gasket I'll just mention I can load a sewing machine, something they probably can't do. I bet that'll show them, huh?
> 
> No, it'll probably make it 10x worse.
> 
> ...


What I'm gathering is, you feel opressed by your idiotic sexist friends who bullied you some time ago because you were caught watching MLP.
You had to "man up" according to >*their<* standards and start liking and doing what they do so you could somehow "prove" you're not a sissy and still be with the cool guys. I see that struggle to "prove yourself" has poisoned your way of seeing things.
Because you had to go through that shit, you're trying to push it on others now? To be a "manly man" one must act according to your,and your friends' standards?
Yeah, no.
You're a brainwashed victim of sexism yourself.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 30, 2012)

Oly said:


> I
> If a tree was to fall across my driveway, well I don't _own_ a chainsaw and my family never did either, so knowing how to use one wouldn't do me much good there would it?



Real men split fallen trees in half with their skulls, I tell you what... :V


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## TeenageAngst (Sep 30, 2012)

I had to connect with my room mate on common ground before I could explain why a 23 year old male was watching a show for little girls, yes.

The reason I respected my friend's dad is because he's awesome.

I don't care about male "approval" so much as not having to deal with the day to day crap that comes from not knowing how to do generic male handiwork. If knowing how to solder saves me the embarrassment of explaining why I can't maintain the constantly breaking down kitchen equipment then I'm going to learn how to solder. If learning to use a chainsaw means I don't have to call my friend and ask him to drop whatever he's doing and clear my driveway, I'm going to learn to use a chainsaw. That's also how I learned to pin and cut a pattern and use a sewing machine, I got tired of needing to ask my sister for help every time I wanted to do a costume for an anime con.

As for the car bit I just really really like cars and motorcycles. When you hang out with gearheads though they will deride you for not doing your own clutch replacements let alone basic maintenance.

Also it's not so much whether or not they know it so much as, if you go to help them or do it for them, if it looks like they care to figure it out. If I help my friend change his brake pads and he's just loafing around while I know he's going to be calling me in 15k miles to do it again, I'm not going to be happy about it. If he's asking questions and helping me change the pads though he'll probably be able to do it himself next time so it's actually cool showing him how to do it. When a socket quit in my room I didn't just ask my dad to do battle with the mysteries behind the wall faceplate while I played xbox, I watched him change the socket out and asked questions, and then I knew how to deal with it the next time it happened. Obviously everyone has different life experiences, but it's about how you approach everyday problems. It makes you more reliable and more independent. Yeah, that's something everyone should do and not just guys, but it's especially embarrassing when guys aren't like this.


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## Butters Shikkon (Sep 30, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Yeah, that's something everyone should do and not just guys, *but it's especially embarrassing when guys aren't like this.*



Which goes back to the topic of the thread...do girls have it better than guys? By the way you just chose to end your last sentence (kinda a big point maker ya know), I say neither is in a great position if these useless double standards remain.


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## AshleyAshes (Sep 30, 2012)

This thread makes me kinda glad that I get to be an effeminate male and no other male gives me crap about it. o.o

...Though the part where men generally mistake me for a woman and this gives me that fear in the back of my head that one of them might sometime try to rape me, only to realize that flat chested chick was a dude, and in a fit of 'gay panic defense' rage, upgrade 'rape' to 'murder', kinda sucks though...


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

Butterflygoddess16 said:


> Which goes back to the topic of the thread...do girls have it better than guys? By the way you just chose to end your last sentence (kinda a big point maker ya know), I say neither is in a great position if these useless double standards remain.



Woe is us, we're all victims of the societal machine. When will we transcend to the egalitarian standard that all people can be whoever they want, however they want, and no one else will be their judge?

Probably about the time I can tell my sister to mow the damn lawn for once. I hate that having to do that s***.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Woe is us, we're all victims of the societal machine. When will we transcend to the egalitarian standard that all people can be whoever they want, however they want, and no one else will be their judge?



When they "man up" and stop giving a fuck about what other people think because it doesn't matter


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

You mean like ignoring what a bunch of blokes on an internet forum have been saying about my standards of manhood because it's been serving me pretty well in practical application?


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> You mean like ignoring what a bunch of blokes on an internet forum have been saying about my standards of manhood because it's been serving me pretty well in practical application?



If you want to continue being a sexist jerk sure.


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## AshleyAshes (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> You mean like ignoring what a bunch of blokes on an internet forum have been saying about my standards of manhood because it's been serving me pretty well in practical application?



If it serves you well, why do you sound so miserable and resentful about it?


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## Atreyu (Oct 1, 2012)

Aleu said:


> When they "man up" and stop giving a fuck about what other people think because it doesn't matter


While I agree 100%, it's not easy for people to break gender norms until that day. Those who do can risk more than just social acceptance- many may be risking their lives. While it's easy to say 'just do it already' it's not always so easy.

Somewhat related: The most liberal constitution in the world is actually found in South Africa. This country went through this change practically overnight- giving gays, lesbians, women, people of color, etc, all the same equality.
Sounds fantastic, doesn't it? But what happened was that violence, rape and murder against all of these groups also multiplied immediately. 

Despite what we're told, change doesn't come from one single bill, nor one single person. It comes slowly or you're inviting chaos and backlash against the very people you're trying to help. 
I respect that people are putting social pressure onto the world and everyone in it to push for these positive changes but depending on location, upbringing and more, that may not be possible for every individual. 



AshleyAshes said:


> ...Though the part where men generally mistake me for a woman and this gives me that fear in the back of my head that one of them might sometime try to rape me, only to realize that flat chested chick was a dude, and in a fit of 'gay panic defense' rage, upgrade 'rape' to 'murder', kinda sucks though...


I know that feel bro.
That exact same feel.
Strangely enough most of the time it's little old ladies who think I'm a chick rather than men, but aside from that... I live in what was formerly a sun-down town. Sometimes I get looks that have me scared for my life, aha. :C


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

It's not perfect but it's the better than my alternatives. Plus it's not exactly a cross to bear, it just gets annoying sometimes that other people don't have to go through the same crap. I'm upset about the lack of equity, not the burden itself.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

Atreyu said:


> While I agree 100%, it's not easy for people to break gender norms until that day. Those who do can risk more than just social acceptance- many may be risking their lives. While it's easy to say 'just do it already' it's not always so easy.


Yes I know both points. I was just using his "man up" logic against him since he's so stuck with that mentality :V Also he doesn't seem to be in a position where his life is in danger. Just his pride or his man-card or whatever the fuck.


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## Butters Shikkon (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Woe is us, we're all victims of the societal machine. When will we transcend to the egalitarian standard that all people can be whoever they want, however they want, and no one else will be their judge?
> 
> Probably about the time I can tell my sister to mow the damn lawn for once. I hate that having to do that s***.



Aleu pretty much nailed my response here...but good to see you're comin' around. :3c



TeenageAngst said:


> You mean like ignoring what a bunch of blokes on an internet forum have been saying about my standards of manhood because it's been serving me pretty well in practical application?



I don't wanna seem an asshole, TA, but I honestly couldn't care less what you do in your life outside these forums. If you're happy, good on ya. If not, the sun will rise tomorrow. But for the purposes of the topic, your veiws were a crucial ally.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

I've yet to see a reason why just manning up would not improve any given situation, just a lot of excuses as to why it shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

Also, if I was to just "be myself " I'd be eaten alive by pretty much everyone I know. Cept maybe my D&D group because I'm their DM. As I said, I'd rather not be alone.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

So you'd rather let society dictate what you should like and act? OK have fun being a puppet then.


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## Atreyu (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I've yet to see a reason why just manning up would not improve any given situation, just a lot of excuses as to why it shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
> 
> Also, if I was to just "be myself " I'd be eaten alive by pretty much everyone I know. Cept maybe my D&D group because I'm their DM. As I said, I'd rather not be alone.



I think you need better friends, honestly. 
People would accept you, but you're right, the people who currently accept you may not. It all depends on what you think is more important in your life- being yourself or being liked by people who don't know many aspects of you and thus having to hide those things.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

If you're able to blend your personal life and your social circles to the point where you don't need to hide anything about yourself or compensate at all in order to be completely at ease with a group of friends then kudos to you. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury. Really, what do you want me to say at this point. I can either have friends, or I can be myself and weird everyone out. Those are my options.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

Man up and be yourself :V


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## AshleyAshes (Oct 1, 2012)

Just so we're clear, this whole thing of needing to 'man up' and otherwise keep up with socially accepted masculine roles are the primary cause of homophobia.

"You can't take a dick like a bitch, you gotta be a man and like the pussy!'.

It's the exact same crap, same drive, just a slightly different application.  Homosexuality just being a different 'feminine act' (Even if there are pleeeeeenty of masculine male homosexuals) that men give each other crap about.


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## Ozriel (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> If you're able to blend your personal life and your social circles to the point where you don't need to hide anything about yourself or compensate at all in order to be completely at ease with a group of friends then kudos to you. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury. Really, what do you want me to say at this point. I can either have friends, or I can be myself and weird everyone out. Those are my options.



If you choose to adhere to hiding who you are in fear of being alone, then you're only pussyfooting around the issue. Man the fuck up and learn to pick and choose your friends. They don't have to accept what you're into, just accept you. At most, you can ask them to tolerate whatever the fuck you are into.



AshleyAshes said:


> Just so we're clear, this whole thing of needing to 'man up' and otherwise keep up with socially accepted masculine roles are the primary cause of homophobia.
> 
> "You can't take a dick like a bitch, you gotta be a man and like the pussy!'.
> 
> It's the exact same crap, same drive, just a slightly different application.  Homosexuality just being a different 'feminine act' (Even if there are pleeeeeenty of masculine male homosexuals) that men give each other crap about.



Gender roles and Gender bias seem to be the staple of our society. It would be nice if people didn't conform to them and just see people for...people, but that's just asking too much. 
I want to be treated equally as a person and not for what I have on my chest, my X chromosomes, what's and between my legs. Is that too much to ask? :V


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Man up and be yourself :V



Yeah, I can just see how that'd go.

"What are you doing, TA?"

Writing a story, wanna proof read it for me?

"Yeah, ok...This is furry porn."

Uh huh.

"...no, dude. Just... no. And why are you wearing that collar?"

I think it looks good.

"Uhh... yeah, so did you finish Invincible yet?"

Nah, I'm not really into comic books.

_*"GET OUT OF MY HOUSE."

*_Seriously though, I tried being that guy. It was a lonely and empty experience.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Yeah, I can just see how that'd go.
> 
> "What are you doing, TA?"
> 
> ...


Dude, your social skills are shit. No wonder you allow people to tell you what to do. There's a difference in being yourself and TACT. Why do furries always have a problem with this. Seriously, proof-reading porn? Who asks someone to do that?


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

I was being sarcastic, why are furries always completely inept when it comes to higher levels of humor?

Really though I have a friend who enjoys reading my porn fics because I go out of my way to make them utterly ridiculous.


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## Ozriel (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I was being sarcastic, why are furries always completely inept when it comes to higher levels of humor?



If that was sarcasm, then I'm Chairman Mao.


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## AshleyAshes (Oct 1, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> Gender roles and Gender bias seem to be the staple of our society. It would be nice if people didn't conform to them and just see people for...people but that's just asking too much.
> I want to be treated equally as a person and not for what I have on my chest, my X chromosomes, what's and between my legs. Is that too much to ask? :V



I do my best to do that.   I get away with it too and I honestly have NO IDEA WHY.  I don't get why I've never had a single college classmate call me a 'faggot' even once...  Seriously, half my profs use female pronouns with me cause they think I'm a chick, I have long hair which I wear in a high pony with my bangs cut, I wear women's shirts and pants, even a pair of black and pink Tripp pants, and I date men...  Shouldn't someone say SOMETHING negative?


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## Butters Shikkon (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Yeah, I can just see how that'd go.
> 
> "What are you doing, TA?"
> 
> ...



Relevant I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyQca1cwe54


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm beginning to wonder just where y'alls moral compass lies in this conversation too considering I didn't start the personal attacks, I certainly didn't insult anyone else's friends, hell, I never even claimed your lifestyle was bogus, just unrealistic from my perspective.

Maybe it's a good thing I'm not like you guys. I'll take a cold Rolling Rock and good company over some deluded sense of egalitarianism.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

I wouldn't call it "good company" if you need to mask yourself for them to accept you. If our lifestyle was unrealistic then we would really be living it now would we?


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

If mine was so dismal I'd have changed it long ago. Waaay back that dude who said he'd kick a guy in the nuts said he'd probably go out of his way more for another culture. This is another culture. The south, the Italian blue collar union workers in the north east, those are different cultures. Yeah, their stipulations are sometimes a pain in the ass but, when in Rome, you know? Plus they're strong friends, more than I can say for yours I bet. Heh, when was the last time your friend invited you to his place, offered you his bed, and told you his goal was to hook you up your first night in town, eh? Or have they ever thrown a bachelor party for a friend where they and the other groomsmen dropped entire paychecks each just to make that guy's party special?

I'm guessing not. I'm guessing your friends would probably think that kind of stuff is stupid.


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## Butters Shikkon (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> If mine was so dismal I'd have changed it long ago. Waaay back that dude who said he'd kick a guy in the nuts said he'd probably go out of his way more for another culture. This is another culture. The south, the Italian blue collar union workers in the north east, those are different cultures. Yeah, their stipulations are sometimes a pain in the ass but, when in Rome, you know? Plus they're strong friends, more than I can say for yours I bet. Heh, when was the last time your friend invited you to his place, offered you his bed, and told you his goal was to hook you up your first night in town, eh? Or have they ever thrown a bachelor party for a friend where they and the other groomsmen dropped entire paychecks each just to make that guy's party special?
> 
> I'm guessing not. I'm guessing your friends would probably think that kind of stuff is stupid.



I don't know wether to laugh or shake my head. Hook you up fist night in town? Speaking for the entire south (which is wierd cuz both me and Aleu are even lower than you are  Aleu's in America's wang for God's sake.) and the Italian blueworkers? I don't think anyone can truly speak for one culture. 

I really have gotten a chuckle out of this thread tonight. Good times.


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## Oly (Oct 1, 2012)

Doing things you don't like so that people will like you more isn't 'manning up', it's being a fucking pushover.

If people don't want to be around me because of my interests, i'm perfectly happy chilling on my own and doing my thing until I meet someone who doesn't expect me to conform to what they expect of me. Because you shouldn't fucking expect things of people like that, you shouldn't pressure people to like or do what you enjoy, and you shouldn't be cross when a friend or relation of some other kind doesn't enjoy the same things you do. You shouldn't need to 'compensate' for having different interests before you can enjoy common interests either. 

Seriously, 'i don't like comics' would lead to 'get out'? If that's no exaggeration(tho i'm guessing it is) then you have a fucking shitty room mate. My boyfriend isn't into music at all really, whereas I am a huge music junkie and musician. I'm not about to fucking break up with him because of it, and I don't expect him to constantly pander to my interests. Likewise he's into a bunch of video games I'm not; he doesn't constantly force it on me and expect me to indulge him if I'm not enjoying it.


And again, you use terms like 'male handiwork' or 'man up' for things that shouldn't have a fucking gender role prescribed to them. There's no such goddamn thing as a 'male job' except for producing sperm, because that's what a biologically male body does. ANYTHING else, anything to do with day to day life, you should not expect of certain people based on gender. You should expect it from them based on what they've told you about themselves or what you'd seen them do; if you've never met them then you shouldn't _expect_ a fucking thing.. And the more people cease perpetuating such bullshit, the more younger people will grow up not buying into 'sports and beer and cars and guns are for men and makeup and dancing and housework and fashion are for ladies.' 

Not that bias is something you can get rid of, fuck I assume things about people without meaning to and I can't help it no matter how hard I try, but I'm aware that my assumptions are baseless until proven otherwise and I do my best not to let said assumptions color my actions.

edit: well I've had friends pay for shit without me asking. I've had friends give me a place to stay, feed me, and smoke me pot, and expect nothing in return. My current landlords let me stay in their bedroom for two weeks because they were gone anyway and they didn't have a room ready for me yet, and this is after giving me an opportunity to move across the country and helping me look for work. The thing is, I may not have many friends, but the people I do choose to be friends with are fucking loyal and I'm loyal to them. And without pretending to be into things to gain approval or anything dumb like that. If a friend of mine doesn't care about something i'm into I just avoid bringing it up, if i'm not into something they are I just ask not to be included and it's no big deal. My landlords asked if I wanted to go fishing recently; I have no fishing license and I had other plans so I said so. It didnt' damage our relationship, there was no loss of respect, I didn't want to end of story.

And cultural differences between the North of the US and the South of the US aren't what I was talking about. There's far more in common than there is different. I was talking about the difference between saaay the US and a tiny northern Chinese village, or somewhere in the Middle East. BIG difference.


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> If mine was so dismal I'd have changed it long ago. Waaay back that dude who said he'd kick a guy in the nuts said he'd probably go out of his way more for another culture. This is another culture. The south, the Italian blue collar union workers in the north east, those are different cultures. Yeah, their stipulations are sometimes a pain in the ass but, when in Rome, you know? Plus they're strong friends, more than I can say for yours I bet. Heh, when was the last time your friend invited you to his place, offered you his bed, and told you his goal was to hook you up your first night in town, eh? Or have they ever thrown a bachelor party for a friend where they and the other groomsmen dropped entire paychecks each just to make that guy's party special?
> 
> I'm guessing not. I'm guessing your friends would probably think that kind of stuff is stupid.



If they're strong friends then they wouldn't give a shit about your interests. They'd be your friend regardless. My friends accept me for who I am because they love who I am. Every little quirk I have, they're aware of. My friends have supported me through my shittiest moments. They have seen my mental breakdowns resulting from that. I'm even best friends and roommates with my ex.

So if you're afraid that your friends are going to drop you because you're "too feminine" for them, they're not your friends.


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## Hinalle K. (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> If you're able to blend your personal life and your social circles to the point where you don't need to hide anything about yourself or compensate at all in order to be completely at ease with a group of friends then kudos to you. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury. Really, what do you want me to say at this point. I can either have friends, or I can be myself and weird everyone out. Those are my options.


Living in the Middle East, believe me Teenage, I *know* what it's like not being able to be myself as well and having to cultivate a fake personality to "blend in"

But that doesn't mean it's ok to dictate that people must go through the same ordeal just because I did, and look down on them if they don't. It's what you're doing,and it's wrong.
You live in 'Merica, don'tcha? I'm sure you can find a better circle of friends if you look hard enough.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

@Butterfly: Good for you.

@Oly: See, this is the kind of person I don't want to associate with. This armchair egalitarian mentality of knowing what's best for society. Tone it down.

@Aleu: They are my friends regardless. My friends know I'm a furry, among other things, but they're not into that, so I don't bring it up. Great, your friends listen to you complain. Mine do too, although  I try not to take it out too much on them because they're not my emotional garbage cans. That's what FA journals are for apparently >_>

Seriously though, it's funny you guys are telling me I should change how I act because you say I'm being used by people you seem to think are fake friends because they want to change how I act. It's like how those pro-lifers protesting with pictures of dead babies near a restaurant while I was trying to eat made me go pro-choice. I just don't want to be associated with... that. Plus, where would I be without my vaguely outlined definition of manhood, huh? Who were my role models? A dad who had a mental breakdown halfway through his career and is disabled, half out of his mind? A mom who took a chemistry degree and successful business and flushed both down the toilet to work at a Walgreens? Maybe a scout leader who kicked me out or a boss who dressed me down in front of the other employees, both for looking "too gay". And I'm not even gay, so that was a kick in the nuts. As I said, I'm making due with what I got, and while it ain't perfect it's the best I have. My friends are true even if they're not really into the whole furry thing or the conspiracy theories or the other weird stuff I'm into. I don't make it a problem and they don't bring their weird stuff up either out of mutual respect. And hey, I can fix a light socket, change my oil, change my brakes, mow a lawn, fight without resorting to kicking a guy in the plums, clean a gun, understand and talk about football, enjoy the occasional beer, fix a computer, identify car problems, work a volt meter, use a calk gun, work a chainsaw, tighten a motorcycle chain, and adjust a clutch cable. That's more than I'd have known otherwise, and all while still cutting and sewing my own costumes and getting overly emotional to movies without remorse.

Yeah, it's kind of a stupid system to measure your self worth by your DIY ability but at least it fosters self-improvement and is more or less universally recognizable. It's good to be self sufficient, not many people can argue that. I do resent the people who've managed to self-actualize without having to deal with the crap I had/have to go through but that's because I'm a jealous SoB who's been in a downward spiral since 2002.


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## Hinalle K. (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I do resent the people who've managed to self-actualize without having to deal with the crap I had/have to go through but that's because I'm a jealous SoB who's been in a downward spiral since 2002.


Yeah.
Don't.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

Hinalle K. said:


> Yeah.
> Don't.



Why, so people I already can't stand don't think I'm petty? It's one of my favorite things to do, especially when they've acquired their superior status through no merit of their own. Whether I do or not it's going to be me and me alone clawing my way through this hellhole. My friends are hundreds of miles away and my family is poor as dirt. I might as well take my pleasure where I can find it.


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## Hinalle K. (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Why, so people I already can't stand don't think I'm petty? It's one of my favorite things to do, especially when they've acquired their superior status through no merit of their own. Whether I do or not it's going to be me and me alone clawing my way through this hellhole. My friends are hundreds of miles away and my family is poor as dirt. I might as well take my pleasure where I can find it.


I think you missed my comment last page


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

My standards are my standards, I usually don't impose them on others IRL unless they're being ridiculous. I don't look down on people for not knowing as much practical stuff as I do because they probably didn't need it. I need it. They're probably better at other stuff, stuff they need. I look down on them if they don't want to learn when the need arises though. Mostly I reserve my resentment for the dead-eyed business majors that seem to clog up all the statistics and economics lectures. The ones that are obviously only there because their parents are paying for the entire shebang and they commute from home in the BMW daddy bought them.


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## 4legdmonstr (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> My standards are my standards, I usually don't impose them on others IRL unless they're being ridiculous. I don't look down on people for not knowing as much practical stuff as I do because they probably didn't need it. I need it. They're probably better at other stuff, stuff they need. I look down on them if they don't want to learn when the need arises though.


See, that sounds a lot better and more practical than the shit you've said for the past 4 pages (and yeah I tried to read most of it but skipped some). You didn't mention gender roles or any bs here at all, that's why I liked it better. I agree with you when you say it like this. 





TeenageAngst said:


> Mostly I reserve my resentment for the dead-eyed business majors that seem to clog up all the statistics and economics lectures. The ones that are obviously only there because their parents are paying for the entire shebang and they commute from home in the BMW daddy bought them.


Jealousy. 

Btw, TA's FA page says he homeschooled himself... that explains alot.


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## Zuckerdachs (Oct 1, 2012)

Man.

If I'm completely on board with both Aleu's and Hinalle's comments almost all the way through a thread, you done fucked up, son.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

I already admitted it was jealousy, and can you blame me? Well... obviously you can but I'm guessing you don't have to deal with those schmucks as much.

And yeah, I did have to teach myself essentially all of my highschool education while my mom was working 50 hours a week and my dad was dealing with narcolepsy, severe depression, and then later opioid withdraw. I'm guessing by "explains a lot" you're trying to say in this thread my education is demonstrably not well rounded. Sorry, at 15 I wasn't a professional educator, I'll try to do a little better next time . It got me a GED, got me through community college, and now I'm working on a 4 year. It's further than I thought I'd get and folks weren't exactly lining up at the door to help me along. Had I less initiative I'd probably still be managing a movie theater or flipping burgers or something right now. God knows if everyone had to go through that crap to get to college my results would probably... not be typical. Which is another reason I hate those people who just sit in the classes and zone out on facebook, they have no idea how valuable what they're pissing away is.


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## PapayaShark (Oct 1, 2012)

Wait...wasn't this thread about which sex that was treated better?


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

I think a general consensus was reached that, although females were historically treated much worse, today it's not nearly as prevalent and the pendulum might just be starting to swing the other way. This was supported and refuted with anecdotes that lead to the conclusion that really nobody wins when bigotry is on the table and that both sides have it bad in different ways, although perhaps the girls slightly more because of age old biases.

Then I started flapping my gums over 3-4 pages of derailed diatribe where basically I was making an ass out of myself while ham-handedly trying to explain that, although gender roles are stupid, there's a lot to be said for "manning up". This was met with widespread opposition that somehow culminated in me needing to explain my educational background.

If my summary is off the mark let me know but that's my takeaway.


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## Zuckerdachs (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I think a general consensus was reached that, although females were historically treated much worse, today it's not nearly as prevalent and the pendulum might just be starting to swing the other way.




I don't know what thread you were reading. There was no consensus. If anything, more people seemed inclined to believe it sucks no matter who you are.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

Zuckerdachs said:


> I don't know what thread you were reading. There was no consensus. If anything, more people seemed inclined to believe it sucks no matter who you are.



Ehem...



> that lead to the conclusion that really nobody wins when bigotry is on the table and that both sides have it bad in different ways


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## Aleu (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> @Butterfly: Good for you.
> 
> @Oly: See, this is the kind of person I don't want to associate with. This armchair egalitarian mentality of knowing what's best for society. Tone it down.
> 
> ...



There is a difference between complaining and actual issues that I've been through that generate real stress. You know like nearly going homeless, losing a job, several deaths in the family and them using it to manipulate me. It's apparent that you really don't know what friendship is. It's not going out and doing stuff just because you can. They're there with you through the good AND the bad. Like I said, if you're so worried about how they think of you, they're not your friends no matter how much you say it because you still do not trust them, regardless if it's warranted or not. Also we never said "used" just that they don't really know you because you put up this stupid "I'm a macho man" front every time your masculinity is questioned and it shows every time you mention "HURR MAN THINGS".


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

Been there, done that, helped a few of them along the way with that kind of stuff too. As I said, they're real friends. Plus I don't think even acquaintances would drop you if you were to need to talk about something like a death in the family. "Sorry dude, I can't help you through the loss of your sister, I have... homework... yeah." No one says that


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## Ozriel (Oct 1, 2012)

Why don't we all sit down and have a cup a tea while discussing our "life's history" and "why it sucks" like good gentlebeasts.

Life sucks and sometimes things happen for better or for worse, but there's no point on going on "my problems are bigger than yours" tangent. It's pointless.



PapayaShark said:


> Wait...wasn't this thread about which sex that was treated better?



It was before it turned into a true Scotsman's "I got 99 problems, and your's ain't one".

Well let me start ot off again: Women are weak creatures and all they are good for is being your personal house servant and personal sexbot....like Black people.


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## CrazyLee (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> As for the car bit I just really really like cars and motorcycles. When you hang out with gearheads though they will deride you for not doing your own clutch replacements let alone basic maintenance.


You know what, I'm a car fan and I've worked on cars before and I'd hate to hang around with the assholes you hang around. When I had to do a clutch on my Focus I had someone do it for me, because I knew it would take me a while and I'd probably fuck up bad if I did it myself. I didn't have the tools or the patience to want to tackle it myself. I've even known people who have worked on cars for a living in the past take vehicles into specialty shops if they didn't have the equipment themselves to do it. If being a "man" means you have to tackle serious transmission work by yourself then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.



TeenageAngst said:


> but it's especially embarrassing when guys aren't like this.


That's the gender standards talking. Why should a man be embarassed about this? I know plenty of men who aren't car nuts or mechanically inclined and shit and I don't consider them any less manly.


Edit: Ah ha, I replied to something without checking how many posts were after it, and I replied to something 2 pages back. But my point still stands.


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## Oly (Oct 1, 2012)

I don't think I know what's best for society. I think I know how, on a basic level, people shouldn't treat each other, and making assumptions of people based on superficial things is definitely something nobody should do. 

It's basic respect. And that would go a long way towards fixing many issues in society, racism, sexism, classism, probably some other -isms... 

But I realize it's too much to ask since people seem to just need to feel fucking superior.

And for the record I haven't exactly intended to tell you to change. Just riffing on the points of why I don't agree with you. I have no expectation of you changing your views any for some guy you only know vaguely through an internet argument... that's silly.

But if this discussion leads to you or any other person reading it realizing something they've been doing is harmful to themselves or to others, that's good. And all the time spent is worth it if that happens to be the case.

Society is too complex to be able to say that any one thing can automatically fix it. We should still _try_ though, to spite the reality that no matter how helpful one person is there are ten who are nasty as fuck, to spit in the face of people who discriminate willfully and teach others that it's okay. So no, I don't think I know what's best for society, but I know that being respectful and not making assumptions can _only_ be a good thing.


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## CrazyLee (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> Yeah, I can just see how that'd go.
> 
> "What are you doing, TA?"
> 
> ...


I have a feeling that post above is an exaggeration or sarcasm.

Also, being yourself means not trying to be someone you're not in order to get friends who actually don't know who you really are, and are friends with someone you're not. And from everything you've said, that sounds like what you're doing. I've been there. I've acted like someone I'm not years ago, back in middle and high school, in order to fit in and be cool. But I discovered very quickly that those people weren't my real friends. 

Being yourself doesn't mean waving around your furry porn shit. It doesn't mean running around with a collar, unless that's what you really want to do. It doesn't mean reading or not reading comics. Hardly any of the people I know are aware I'm a furry because it's not something I tell people, but I can guarantee that if I did tell them they wouldn't give a shit because they know ME, they don't know me by my hobbies. They certainly would be bothered if I expected them to proof-read my porn. I know better than to wave my strange hobbies around and expect respect.

Being yourself means just being the person you are, no pretenses, no bullshit, no trying to act like someone else to impress them. That doesn't mean you have to wave your strange hobbies or furryness in their faces, it just means you have to be who you are as a person without trying to act a way contrary to who you are to impress people.


Also, I thought for sure you were some kind of teenager, by the way you act, and I think it's sad when I read that you're in a 4 year college. You may be physically an adult, but from the way you've acted in this thread you sound like a teenager, and you need to work hard on your maturity before you'll be respected as an adult. Perhaps the reason you say you get disrespected by the people around you for not being "manly" enough is not because they think you're not "manly" but because they see a child in the body of a man, and they see someone they can easily push around.


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## Trpdwarf (Oct 1, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I've yet to see a reason why just manning up would not improve any given situation, just a lot of excuses as to why it shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
> 
> Also, if I was to just "be myself " I'd be eaten alive by pretty much everyone I know. Cept maybe my D&D group because I'm their DM. As I said, I'd rather not be alone.



There was a study done a while back that kind of ties into this whole "man up" and how damaging it can to emotional control and or well being. When kids are young people tend to give young boys the "man up" approach and girls the "it's okay to cry" for the exact same shit. This teaches them at a young age that only girls can be in touch with their emotions and or that guys are not allowed to be in touch with their feelings or emotions. It can cause problems for older adults and communication problems for men that often lead them to become bitter later on down the road because they cannot open up appropriately to communicate their feels to help stabilize relationships.

Something more recent: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/250405.php where the excessive use of pacifiers on guys and not girls as babies may have potentially damaging effects down the road. This plays back into the whole "manning up" thing. You may not see an issue with it but it's far reaching when you get into the thick of what is wrong with this idea that guys have to be these unemotional, cold, and or "Manly" things.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 1, 2012)

CrazyLee said:


> I have a feeling that post above is an exaggeration or sarcasm.



I already said it was sarcasm. Seriously, you think I'd consider someone who would kick me out for not liking comic books a friend? You really think such a person exists anyway? Remind me to only make 100% serious posts on these forums from now on, I get the feeling half of this topic is people getting pissed at stuff I purposely blew out of proportion for the sake of illustration.



> Also, being yourself means not trying to be someone you're not in order to get friends who actually don't know who you really are, and are friends with someone you're not. And from everything you've said, that sounds like what you're doing. I've been there. I've acted like someone I'm not years ago, back in middle and high school, in order to fit in and be cool. But I discovered very quickly that those people weren't my real friends.



*sigh* for the last time that's not what I'm doing. I'm just not waving my weird interests in their face all the time.



> Being yourself doesn't mean waving around your furry porn shit. It doesn't mean running around with a collar, unless that's what you really want to do. It doesn't mean reading or not reading comics. Hardly any of the people I know are aware I'm a furry because it's not something I tell people, but I can guarantee that if I did tell them they wouldn't give a shit because they know ME, they don't know me by my hobbies. They certainly would be bothered if I expected them to proof-read my porn. I know better than to wave my strange hobbies around and expect respect.



*massages eyes with hand* I guess this is misconstrued information on my end. I was under the impression you meant "be yourself around your friends" to basically mean this^ waving around everything you think is special and if anyone's offended well f*** them they're not real friends. My friends all know I'm a furry, watch ponies, etc. They don't care because I don't make it a "thing" by bringing it up all the goddamn time because I know they're not really interested in it. Which seems to be exactly what you're talking about. Which makes me wonder how this even got this far.



> Being yourself means just being the person you are, no pretenses, no bullshit, no trying to act like someone else to impress them. That doesn't mean you have to wave your strange hobbies or furryness in their faces, it just means you have to be who you are as a person without trying to act a way contrary to who you are to impress people.



I've only ever done that on a job interview.




> Also, I thought for sure you were some kind of teenager, by the way you act, and I think it's sad when I read that you're in a 4 year college. You may be physically an adult, but from the way you've acted in this thread you sound like a teenager, and you need to work hard on your maturity before you'll be respected as an adult. Perhaps the reason you say you get disrespected by the people around you for not being "manly" enough is not because they think you're not "manly" but because they see a child in the body of a man, and they see someone they can easily push around.



Yeesh, talk about a foul ball, that one's in the stands.


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## Hinalle K. (Oct 2, 2012)

sigh
Whatever you say, TA, whatever you say...


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## 4legdmonstr (Oct 2, 2012)

TeenageAngst said:


> I already said it was sarcasm. Seriously, you think I'd consider someone who would kick me out for not liking comic books a friend? You really think such a person exists anyway? Remind me to only make 100% serious posts on these forums from now on, I get the feeling half of this topic is people getting pissed at stuff I purposely blew out of proportion for the sake of illustration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You didn't make it clear that you were joking... and from the posts you made before it, it's obvious why we thought you were serious.

You made it initially sound like you presented a lie to your friends. Honestly, the problem you have is you leave out information in your posts or just word things to make them sound like something else. If you initially posted this, there wouldn't be so many angry responses. Proof-read your stuff next time.


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## Torrijos-sama (Oct 4, 2012)

Men don't get maternity leave, and medicaid in the state of Texas really only applies to women and children.
And insurance kinda sucks.


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## Zuckerdachs (Oct 4, 2012)

JesusFish said:


> Men don't get maternity leave



Not true. There are only four countries that don't have federally mandated paternity leave.

Swaziland, Liberia, Papua New Guinea ... and the US (excluding California, which even grants leave for gay dads).

Though in the US it's starting to show up in the benefits packages of better companies, so at least it's a step in the right direction.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 4, 2012)

Insurance companies get away with murder on the discrimination front thanks to statistics. I guess it means the lowest prices for some people but it still strikes me as bogus.

Not meaning to whack the bees nest with a stick again but this actually reminds me of an interesting anecdote involving my driving instructor. The class was arguing over who were better drivers, boy or girls, and when asked her opinion she just shook her head. When pressed she said, "Girls are definitely safer drivers. They tend to follow the rules of the road better, buckle up more, and have fewer accidents. That's why their rates are lower." All the girls started cheering, but then she continued with, "I'd say boys are *better* drivers though because, even though they make more mistakes, they generally know how to handle dangerous situations better. Icy roads, wet weather, they usually have more control of the vehicle. That makes them cocky though and then they go off and do stupid stuff like trying to race."

It seemed to satisfy everyone.


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## Aleu (Oct 5, 2012)

I guess Florida doesn't count all that because everyone is a shit driver. Actually, I've had more of an issue with female drivers than male drivers. My friend said that he saw one woman talking on her cell phone and applying make up while driving when he was coming home from school.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 5, 2012)

Female drivers can do some pretty dumb stuff, but generally speaking, supergluing house siding to their cars, removing the catalytic converter, nailing a Folger's can to the exhaust, and then driving around like they're Michael Schumacher in rush hour traffic isn't one of them.


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## Volf (Oct 16, 2012)

Just noticed this thread and thought I'd contribute this article

http://keddycsi.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/abandoning-men_-jill-gets-welfare.pdf

Seemed relevant.


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## TeenageAngst (Oct 16, 2012)

MAH KEYS!


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