# What is Terragen (and why it should be allowed in FA)



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Today when getting back on the internet after figuring out why I was out of internet (some dirty mind cut off the internet cables out of my home-- I fiddled with the wires and voila) I noticed I had gotten a note from davehyena, telling me terragen renders were not allowed on this site anymore because they fell under the "generator" category, and since I disagree about that (no offense dave, but your description is a disrespect of what terragen really is), I wanted to show both admins and others what terragen is and why I believe it does not fall under the generator category.

I gained permission from dragoneer to post those pictures in here, so here is the main window when the app is started. the text in the red rectangle will tell you the rest:












(To be continued)


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

part 2.




now that I shown you a bit of the main window, I will show you each separate features with much smaller screenshots along with their description.

to be continued.


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## Nanakisan (Aug 26, 2008)

i actually use terragen to make sl raw files.
but then i grew up and went beyond that nasty piece of crap software.
granted it makes impeccable renders.
But after finding Balliwick i've been making rather crude but lovly works of art for sl terrains.

My last creation with the Balliwick was iconicly the Triforce which actually came out rather well
XD

yes i do agree that terragen should not be allowed on the site.
this is a art site not a resource depot.
case closed


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

This is the terrain generator. The Method submenu lets you choose how you want the terrain to be generated. the Action submenu asks you how to generate the terrain, and the Settings submenu lets you choose how you want the generated terrain will look like based on those settings.





This is the view/sculpt window in sculpt mode. tool size lets you choose how big or small the red circle is (allowing for more precise sculpting if you set a small circle), and how strong the raising/lowering effect can be.
the shown terrain is still the generated one, by the way.

to be continued.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Nanakisan said:


> i actually use terragen to make sl raw files.
> but then i grew up and went beyond that nasty piece of crap software.
> granted it makes impeccable renders.
> But after finding Balliwick i've been making rather crude but lovly works of art for sl terrains.
> ...


it has nothing to do with being a resource depot. I don't use terragen to use in low-quality second life crap. I make art out of those renders.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

This is the water menu, along with screenshots of its tabs. it allows you to set how the water looks like, how its waves look like, what color the water is and how transparent it can be. very useful especially for winter scenes when you want your lakes to look frozen. personally I think the shore tab is crap, but that's just because whenever I tried to use it, the results were catastrophic. I guess I just don't know how to use it. the reflections tab is important too because an improperly set reflection will make your water look way unrealistic.

to be continued


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

cloudscape. the visible clouds in the first screenshot is not a single texture but the entire terrain's cloudscape. the sky size and altitude is mainly used when you are too high in the sky and the cloudscape either 1) shows black spots because it isn't big enough compared to how far you are from the ground or 2) disappear because the sky is set too low for the camera's altitude. edit cloud colors let you chose how the cloud looks like, that is the normal color, dark clouds or greenish orange clouds. the choice is yours.
the cloudscape generator is the second (and last) generator in terragen. and just like the terrain generator it is not a required, since the default cloudscape (which I used in these screenshots) can be modified to be bigger, smaller or even non-existant.

to be continued.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Atmosphere. you want a dark and moody sky? or a bright pink one? or even mars' sky? maybe add some fog in the mix? or you just want to setup a sunset sky? the choice is yours in the atmosphere window.

to be continued.


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## QT Melon (Aug 26, 2008)

Sir, can you reproduce these works without Terragen? I can draw in different programs and get the same results. If you can do the same thing in Terragen in other programs that use 3d then perhaps I'd change my vote to allow this on here.

As I see it, you don't have any fundamental understandings of art and it is very likely you cannot reproduce the works without it.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Lighting conditions. a fancier way of saying "The sun". it allows you to set up how the sun look and where it is. it might seem simple but it greatly affects a render. sun heading is where the sun comes from in the cloudscape. the outer edge of the line is where the sun is. the small image changes as you move the line around to give you a better idea of what the terrain will look like when it'll be rendered. ground level acts just like in real life; the higher the sun is in the sky, the brighter things are. in turn, the lower the sun is in the sky, the darker things will get, but since terragen has no real support for night scenes, setting the ground level lower than the middle will result in a black render. it can still be used along with the atmosphere settings to create a pseudo-night sky though.





The camera settings window, where you can modify the field of view and the gamma settings (hint: 1.25 is perfect for most renders. remember that!). it also allows you to use plugins like the very useful HDR plugin which saves files in a format that has more colors than, say, jpg or png, which in turn reduces or eliminate the color banding effect that is often caused by fiddling with the atmosphere.

I didn't put a 3D preview screenshot because it only shows as a blank window in my art app.

that is all. I was uploading my renders since last year and I have grown my skills with Terragen since then. frankly it's my only artistic skill. I suck at drawing, I suck at writing and I can't even come up with decent tracker music (.mod, .it, etc...). it can take up to two hours for me to chose and set renders and it's with excitation that I wait while it renders, hoping it'll look as good as it did in the render preview window.

if you take away my only artistic skill, then I pretty much have no reason to be on this site due to the aforementioned reasons. I often do some basic photo manips and I post pics I got as requests/gifts/kiribans, but I need a good reason to justify those pageviews other than "lol I'm posting furry" or "lulz porn = insta fav". people like my renders, even some admins like them (including dave hyena himself), but deviantart isn't enough for me. my real home is at furaffinity and I'll feel really stupid if I can't express my art skills on this site.

to QTMelon, I don't use other apps like Vue because I think the 3D effect is more present than in Terragen. the quality just isn't there. I hear lots of people who tell me they thought one render I did was a photo and they're surprised when they figure out it's cgi stuff.

on a final note, if you (the admins) are to ban terragen renders, then you might as well ban all pictures using Poser models such as Krystal or the generic Fox model since there is pretty much no work done in them, with a few exceptions. it wouldn't be fair to let people post stuff whose only work on it being different positions while I cannot post stuff which normally require me 30 minutes setting up and then hours waiting for it to render.


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## Arcturus (Aug 26, 2008)

QT Melon said:


> Sir, can you reproduce these works without Terragen? I can draw in different programs and get the same results. If you can do the same thing in Terragen in other programs that use 3d then perhaps I'd change my vote to allow this on here.
> 
> As I see it, you don't have any fundamental understandings of art and it is very likely you cannot reproduce the works without it.



You can't use that argument. That's like saying to someone who creates beautiful images in say.. Painter, that they can't do it unless they can also create then in Windows Paint.

Terragen is a pretty specialized tool, for rendering landscapes. There aren't really that many programs that can do it. Most 3d rendering software that can be used 'personally' is pretty crap at rendering things like land, skies, water, etcetera. It's not where its talents lie.

And using the program to make things that look good takes a lot of technical skill, and isn't that what this is about? Technical skill?

And I'd also argue that you have no place to criticise others when all your art seems to consist of "Person with ghetto booty / spine-snapping tits, with lips that you could park an Airbus on, in a pose", repeated ad infinitum with the barest of changes.


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

Hey there Sammy,

Dave Hyena (A cute cormorant) didn't make this decision by himself.

A little more than two weeks ago Dave Hyena, after I checked on the matter concerning your posts and responded in kind about being confused about his saying that they where allowed, he opened a discussion on the staff forums.  Seemingly he didn't think that they should be allowed either, but I presume being the good staff member he is, he decided to be more diplomatic about the matter.  I guess almost immediately another staff member chimed in and agreed that Terragen was a generator and uploads of Terragen Renders, *in and of themselves*, fall within violating the AUP.  Dave Hyena didn't stop there though, and left the matter open for several days to collect as much input from his fellow staff on it, as he could.  From what I understand the decision wasn't final until more than 4  staff members (who are informed of and/or understand how terragen is used, so the terragen tutorial is a bit redundant, *especial as "proof" that renders, in and of themselves, don't violate FA's AUP.*) agreed on it.

The final decision can be found here...

http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?t=24617&highlight=terragen

...  And at this "fake" violation report posted to call me a hypocrite, here...

http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?t=25899&highlight=terragen

Its good you have friends, but you may want to advise them that its against the forum rules to use the thread they used to state their opinion in the wacky way they did.

Never the less, the matter is further clarified by Hanazawa, before closing the thread.

And...



QT Melon said:


> If you can do the same thing in Terragen in other programs that use 3d then perhaps I'd change my vote to allow this on here.
> 
> As I see it, you don't have any fundamental understandings of art and it is very likely you cannot reproduce the works without it.



And...



Nanakisan said:


> yes i do agree that terragen should not be allowed on the site.
> this is a art site not a resource depot.
> case closed



And finally, since Dave Hyena had included my Terragen renders and what I mentioned in the submission info in the staff discussion about the matter, and since I enjoy complying to the TOS and AUP that I agreed to, in order to be allowed to enjoy the wonderful efforts and equipment that FA lets me use, and had to delete the uploads...  For further reference, I loaded them to Photo Bucket, linked 'em and re-posted the submissions and the comments as a journal.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/442178/

Awesome tutorial though, especially since I love playing with terragen and hope to use it for backgrounds for real art soon.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Hey there Sammy,
> 
> Dave Hyena (A cute cormorant) didn't make this decision by himself.
> 
> ...



I mentioned dave the first time because he was the one who sent me the note in which he mentioned the entire staff voted about it.

also you should read arcturus' reply to qtmelon if you want a good answer.

also, pardon those harsh words of mine, but I do believe that taking down your own stuff only to upload them somewhere else and link to them from within an art community is a mere pussy's way of evading rules. I'm not like that.

EDIT: Nanakisan has no idea what he/she's talking about since I don't make terragen renders as a ressource to use in other apps/games, but as artistic portraits of my own to show to others.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

QT Melon said:


> As I see it, you don't have any fundamental understandings of art



I'm sorry but I have a perfect understanding of art. art is used to pass messages, it's used to make beautiful things, things that catch the eye and the imagination of people, things people look at and then will look at it again because it's that pretty.

I make pretty stuff, people like my stuff and they keep watching it. so I'd be the one saying you have no damn idea what art is.

also if you want an exagerated exemple of how stupid your assumption that you will change your vote only if I can do the exact same thing on a different 3D app is, then go ask Vincent van Gogh to draw his Skull with a burning cigarette on a brick wall with spray paint and watch for his reaction.

if you don't get it, then you're a lost cause.


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

Like I said, awesome tutorial Sammy...  I'm sort of at a loss as to how it proves anything different from being a fancy generator were one can sit and obsess over toggling any number of sliders, and use a fairly generic up/down tool that is at the bottom of the scale as far as being considered a sculpting tool, if it can even be called that.  If anything you just showed us all the reasons why 4 or more FA staff members called this a generator.

I like terragen, I think its cool and fun to play with, but at the same time I have to pace myself because I can spend to much time fiddling with settings.  What I wouldn't say though, is that the end result, is something I created, and certainly not a piece of my art, no matter I spend 1 minute setting a scene up, or 3 hours, and definitely not based on how long it takes my computer to render the scene.  So the staff's decision makes sense to me.



SammyFox said:


> I didn't put a 3D preview screenshot because it only shows as a blank window in my art app.



Actually, it renders a generic view of of the scene and I think you can move your view around in it.  It's almost as useless as the "sculpting" tool.



> if you take away my only artistic skill, then I pretty much have no reason to be on this site



Wait...  WHAT ABOUT THE LULZ?

I sorta thought you where here to further perfect your snarking skills?

Sorta,
Kinda,
Maybe...

I guess I could be wrong.



> I often do some basic photo manips and I post pics I got as requests/gifts/kiribans, but I need a good reason to justify those pageviews other than "lol I'm posting furry" or "lulz porn = insta fav". people like my renders, even some admins like them (including dave hyena himself), but deviantart isn't enough for me. my real home is at furaffinity and I'll feel really stupid if I can't express my art skills on this site.



Umm...  Wow, your sounding weird...  Any staff member who has dealt with you and most members who know of your name (most likely even outside the people who fav and/or watch you because of your TGen Renders), knows that your renders and the few other submissions you post represent like maybe a max of 10% of your presence on the main site.  Just for good measure though, lets give you 25%.  Given that, who do you think your talking to here, whimpering that if you dont get to load your TGen renders you wont have a use for the site...  ZOMG WTF!?!?



> to QTMelon, I don't use other apps like Vue because I think the 3D effect is more present than in Terragen. the quality just isn't there. I hear lots of people who tell me they thought one render I did was a photo and they're surprised when they figure out it's cgi stuff.



ZOMG, were did you take that picture!?!? = Trade mark of TGen for a decade or more.

Doesn't make it any less a generator.



> on a final note, if you (the admins) are to ban terragen renders, then you might as well ban all pictures using Poser models such as Krystal or the generic Fox model since there is pretty much no work done in them



So...  Ummm, are you admitting that there isnt much work done in your TGen renders, and not only they shouldn't be allowed here, but uploads lacking as much or more user created content should also be a violation of UAP?



> ...which normally require me 30 minutes setting up and then hours waiting for it to render.



I thought, when you screamed at me before, that you spend hours on these?


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Art is used to make people think, to make people happy as well as make them sad. art is used to create stuff that will either make you laugh or make you cry. that is music, pictures or sculptures. art is the thing that keeps this world going. it make people dream or give them nightmares, it's used for both good and evil, art has an utility for plenty of situations. art is universal. one picture is worth a thousand words, and it's true.

I don't make people think about my stuff, I make those things to amaze people, to watch something pretty before they wander off to their smut or their webcomics. even if it's just a temporary feeling that what I did looks good, the mere fact someone thinks what I make is good, justify my raison d'Ãªtre. it justify why I keep doing them and why I keep getting better. if no one had liked my renders, if I were alone to enjoy them, then I would have ceased already. I recognise when I have no talent at something. it's why I stopped making tracker music, writing stories and drawing crap.

and YOU are the one telling me I don't understand art? you've got some guts QTmelon. you really ticked me off with that line.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Like I said, awesome tutorial Sammy...  I'm sort of at a loss as to how it proves anything different from being a fancy generator were one can sit and obsess over toggling any number of sliders, and use a fairly generic up/down tool that is at the bottom of the scale as far as being considered a sculpting tool, if it can even be called that.  If anything you just showed us all the reasons why 4 or more FA staff members called this a generator.
> 
> I like terragen, I think its cool and fun to play with, but at the same time I have to pace myself because I can spend to much time fiddling with settings.  What I wouldn't say though, is that the end result, is something I created, and certainly not a piece of my art, no matter I spend 1 minute setting a scene up, or 3 hours, and definitely not based on how long it takes my computer to render the scene.  So the staff's decision makes sense to me.
> 
> ...


you're just being insulting and you're testing my patience. I really have no business to do with the likes of you.


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> I mentioned dave the first time because he was the one who sent me the note in which he mentioned the entire staff voted about it.



Here's the thing then...  So...  you think you can prove enough to dragoneer to strike the decision of the entire staff?



> also you should read arcturus' reply to qtmelon if you want a good answer.



I did, I also reported him because he sounded just like he was expressing a differing opinion until he slammed someone for the preference of what they draw or have in their favs.  Inflammatory and rude remarks like that are not allowed here.

That being said...  he was just expressing what one side of the argument always praddles off...  ITS ART.  Maybe the staff here isnt arguing whether or not its art, the decision was based on the fact that TGen submissions are made with a generator, and, *in and of themselves*, fall outside of the scope of the AUP.



> also, pardon those harsh words of mine



Harsh words?



> but I do believe that taking down your own stuff only to upload them somewhere else and link to them from within an art community is a mere pussy's way of evading rules. I'm not like that.



Following the rules set forth by the people who work tirelessly and pay for FA, isnt being a pussy.

I'm like that.  ;-)

Plus its there for reference, because there is more to the argument than TGEN RENDERS ARE ART G*D D*MN IT, YOU BETTER ALLOW THEM ON FA, BECAUSE THIS IS MY FURRY HOME...

G*D D*MN IT!!!

_I mean, giving that your as smart as I think you are...  dont you think anyone looking into the matter should see the other side of the story as well, so they can be honestly objective about it?_

;-)



> EDIT: Nanakisan has no idea what he/she's talking about since I don't make terragen renders as a ressource to use in other apps/games, but as artistic portraits of my own to show to others.



I think your missing his point, or deliberately trying to direct another reader from any consideration that may lean contrary to your own opinion.

Finally (at least for this rebuttal)...  just in case you never got it the first time when you where being a little heated before (I don't mind passion as much as you think I do, I guess, but this isnt the place for you to word them in the manner you did. ;-) ), *I liked your TGen renders*...  well most of them anyways.  None of them stood out against some of the best TGen renders I've seen, but just like most others, they where nice none the less.  Sorta questioned why you would load renders that you didnt like or thought where crap, I mean...  outside of just loading TGen renders for the hell of it, which would mean that you dont think they are really art, I dont see the sense in doing that.  Oh, wait...  You have pretty much said you load TGen renders for the hell of it...  Not because its your only artistic outlet, and if you cant load your TGen renders then FA lacks its purpose of being your home...

but how did you put it?

OH YES...

http://forums.furaffinity.net/image.php?u=3058&type=sigpic&dateline=1218836527

... "*for shits and giggles*"


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> you're just being insulting and you're testing my patience.



I'm not meaning to be insulting Sammy, and I'm not trying to test your patience.  I'm honestly trying to keep things civil knowing how easy it is to set you off.

I'm just asking for you to look at it as objectively as possible and answer things honestly.

If your gonna prove something to dragoneer, dont you think you need to at least be honest?

Plus...  I dont see any proof here that would encourage Dragoneer, to step outside a decision that a large part of or the entire staff made.  I would think he was in on that.

I don't know, but if you want another chance, and your not here just to strike up drama about the matter and hand out attaboys to everyone that agrees with you and put down or discredit anyone who doesn't, don't you think it would be more conducive to actually focus on this being a discussion about site policy, rather than further expressing the opinions we already know you hold about the matter, and doing it as civilly as you possibly can?

Trust me, if I wanted to, and it was allowed, I can be just as insulting as you where.

But, I'm not like that.

So I wouldn't do it anyways.

;-)

Just trying to give my two cents worth about the matter.  Please don't get snippy just because I'm counter what your attempting to do here.

Please?



> I really have no business to do with the likes of you.



Why, because you don't think I'm on your side, and I'm not dancing around singing your praise?

If so, I don't think that's going to move things in any good direction for you.

But that's my own humble opinion.

Especially since I'm more on your side than you know, I just don't think given what I think about you, puts you higher than the reasons and purposes that FA is here for and the decisions the staff makes on what content they will host.

As I see it, this isnt a matter of what is art and what is not, or for that matter what exactly art is, or what you think it is, or the grey areas that have existed since before man formed the alphabet leaving room open for you to say what you think about the matter, and someone else to come in and say just enthusiastically that your just so obviously wrong about the matter.

*Lets just say that I agree 100% with what you said art is.  Lets just say that I doubt the validity of the terragen renders (in and of themselves) that I set for my computer to make and you set for your computer to make, as being something you or i created or that they are art.  I certainly don't think the ones I set my computer to make are art, no matter how long I sit and obsess over the settings, but lets just say that you call my terragen renders art.

Its not about who considers TGen Renders art, its about the matter being that they are created with a generator, and FA has decided that that content is not what they want to host on their servers.  I really don't understand what's so hard to understand about the matter.  And why you think that just because someone questions what you say and asks for further elaboration is someone that you don't have any business talking to, or that they are deliberately trying to piss you off, really confuses me.  Sometimes Sammy, someone really wants to see you go about things the civil way, just because they know you can.

Since you already apologized once, I have faith in you.

Can you get a hint?*

[EDIT - ALSO]



> I don't make people think about my stuff, I make those things to amaze people, to watch something pretty before they wander off to their smut or their webcomics. even if it's just a temporary feeling that what I did looks good, the mere fact someone thinks what I make is good, justify my raison d'Ãªtre. it justify why I keep doing them and why I keep getting better. if no one had liked my renders, if I were alone to enjoy them, then I would have ceased already. I recognise when I have no talent at something. it's why I stopped making tracker music, writing stories and drawing crap.



Be it meant to be a noble attempt to distract people from fapping to furry pr0nz or not, and no matter how many tens of people fav, watch, or view you for your TGen renders, doesn't prove to me that they are not generator content and thereby any more allowable to be hosted on the site than any other content made with a generator.



> and YOU are the one telling me I don't understand art? you've got some guts QTmelon. you really ticked me off with that line.



That could be taken wrong, especially if someone knows how easy it is to upset you Sammy, but strip it of any personal insults that you could jump to conclusions with.  It does leave something to be desired as to what you know of art and what you don't.  We can all prance around and act like we're professionals and we know our sh*t when it comes to what is art and what isnt, but what it comes down to is that perhaps QT Melon's comment touches on something that's not being discussed here.

It's not about what you know of art or what you dont.
It's not about what art is or isnt.
It's not about whether or not TGen renders, in any form, are art.

It's about TGen renders, in and of themselves, being generator content, and thereby FA not being a place for them.


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## CHICAGOÂ¤lollie (Aug 26, 2008)

Terragen is a terrain generator. Terrain + generator = *Terragen*.
Twist a few knobs, a couple of clicks, and voila. _Instant land and water_.

If you had modeled every single hill, trees, the textures, _whatever_, then this would be a different story. But, no, all you're really doing is playing with buttons and sliders.

So, drop it. You're making an ass out of yourself, and I mean that in the most civil way possible.




DeviantART allows it, and you've got an account there. Post it where it's allowed.


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## Stratelier (Aug 26, 2008)

CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> Terragen is a terrain generator. Terrain + generator = *Terragen*.
> Twist a few knobs, a couple of clicks, and voila. _Instant land and water_.


That argument alone summarizes and classifies Terragen right in league with the _Spore_ Creature Creator.


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> Terragen is a terrain generator. Terrain + generator = *Terragen*.



That's what I've been trying to say for like 3 weeks now, I had no idea why it wasn't just plainly obvious.



> Twist a few knobs, a couple of clicks, and voila. _Instant land and water_.



That's what I mean when I say tinker with or toggle settings.  *I* can spend a minute doing it and generate a photo quality render that will make some peoples eyes pop, or *I* can spend hours obsessing over a slider bar or two and come up with something that people will yawn at unless I upload it with an adult warning, the computer could render it in an hour, or take a day or two...  it matters not as far as it being something that the *I* made, such is the way it is when using generators.  Just because TGen generates and renders so well, doesn't make what it makes, in an of the renders themselves, a piece of art that the *I* created.



> If you had modeled every single hill, trees, the textures, _whatever_, then this would be a different story.



Absolutely.



> But, no, all you're really doing is playing with buttons and sliders.



Good Point!  ;-)



> So, drop it. You're making an ass out of yourself, and I mean that in the most civil way possible.



I think its supposed to be *ss, here...  keeping things as "civil" as they're supposed to be.

;-)



> DeviantART allows it, and you've got an account there. Post it where it's allowed.



There are numerous places on the internets that gladly host this content, and other content that FA chooses not to host, I dont see what the big deal is that people think they need begrudge FA to host what they don't want to.  Are furry's as a whole, just really that hard to please?


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> That argument alone summarizes and classifies Terragen right in league with the _Spore_ Creature Creator.



Actually, its a "little" different.  Terragen, like many other fractal generators, uses mathematically computerized randomly generated algorithms (I'm deliberately being cornishly redundant here) to create something mostly outside the control of the user.  Even though Terragen is a Terrain Generator, it is still at its core, a fractal generator.  It's simply using number crunching to emulate land structures.  In addition, I believe if its sculpting tool was more like a legitimate sculpting tool and you could, say for instance, add a rock bridge to a scene and toss in plants and such, it may fall within the scope of actually being considered a 3D modeling application, such as Bryce and the like.

The Spore Creature Creator, on the other paw, at its core, is a NURBS modeler, much like Rhino 3D, and even more like Impulse 3D's Organica.  Just because they specialized the theme and made it easier to use, doesn't make it less of a legitimate 3D modeling application.

The name is deceiving, its not meant just to create creatures, its a real 3D modeler built into a game, or outside of one at this time, that is meant to create not only creatures, but buildings, vehicles, and such.

That, though, is a looooooooooooooooong discussion outside this one, to be found in the SCC threads...

... *not here*.

You, oh "forum legend", should know this.  ;-)


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## QT Melon (Aug 26, 2008)

Arcturus said:


> You can't use that argument. That's like saying to someone who creates beautiful images in say.. Painter, that they can't do it unless they can also create then in Windows Paint.
> 
> Terragen is a pretty specialized tool, for rendering landscapes. There aren't really that many programs that can do it. Most 3d rendering software that can be used 'personally' is pretty crap at rendering things like land, skies, water, etcetera. It's not where its talents lie.
> 
> ...




I don't think you understand, sir. We aren't talking about every program used to create art must be on equal ground. Terragen only creates background renders. There are other programs that can create background renders. I can reproduce the work I do traditionally, in Painter, in Photoshop and other programs. I do not use a slider to make judgments like "water should be more transparent" I have to actually find the basic shape and put the details in myself. I have to make mistakes to learn from them. It is part of the process of creating artwork.

I could draw a 2d render of the landscape by observation of actual landscapes, not with a slider that I should learn through observation.

It's not whether or not Terragen can create a work of art, but the person who is dependent upon it. Those that understand the fundamentals of art (not define what art is - as it is a different argument) are those who would be able to reproduce the work. Many 3d artists have backgrounds in traditional works or 2d works and can create and replicate the work in a different way. It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but they reproduce it because they understand what they're making with the knowledge. 

I do not fear your criticism of my work because what I post was not made for everyone. If this is all you have to stand on, rather than understand the argument I am making, I pity you. We aren't talking about personal preferences of style. We are talking about the heart of the matter of understanding the fundamentals of art - as described in the previous paragraph. I made no mention of whether or not the output of Terragen was unappealing.


----------



## darkdoomer (Aug 26, 2008)

what actually makes me laugh, it's the behavior of *anonymousfurry*. 
that guy's a terragen user too , posted his stuffs on furaff, and is no better than *sammyfox*. what admins have to say about this? i call this behavior a global hypocrisy.

i dont disagree about the fact terragen's a terrain generator. you can't model anything else but landscapes with it anyways... still ;face it, what's the difference between a very easy to use 3d software and terragen since sammy could have done the same thing on 3Dsmax? 
answer : none.

i'm a computer graphics artist. and for me, the software is a tool like any other; no matter its complexity, only what you do with it, and only the final result counts.

hey guys, where's your so-called tolerance and acceptation of other's tastes in art? *snickers*

by the way, if you think picture generator programs are still not allowed, i'm talking to you,* davehyena* and other admins who support this unwritten rule, i want you to delete this picture : http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1493845/ *NOW*


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## Stratelier (Aug 26, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Terragen, like many other fractal generators, uses mathematically computerized randomly generated algorithms (I'm deliberately being cornishly redundant here) to create something mostly outside the control of the user.


Stop the train -- THAT's your problem right there

You're not generating the result in as much sense as actually painting or sculpting it, as in the sense that (generally) your only contributions is giving the computer some instructions and parameters and letting *it* is the one doing all the "real" work for you.

Interesting you should mention the Spore Creature Creator, that app has already been discussed at length and consensually ruled a generator by several users and more than one site admin.  (1) SporeCC is limited to prefabricated parts and textures, (2) each part has a pre-designated function (a leg is a leg, is a leg).  You cannot create new pieces or assign different functions to the existing ones.  It is a legitimate type of 3D modeller/renderer, yes, but that isn't the topic.  This topic is about *whether it should be allowed on FA*, and the only staff member we have contributing to this topic so far is ruling a 'no'.



anonymousfurry said:


> You, oh "forum legend", should know this.  ;-)


Oh plz  That's just an automated label dictated by post count and _you know it_.


----------



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

I would like to add that unlike spore and other generators like the old flash wolf image generator, very few of the settings like the sky, the clouds and the water are pre-determined. if you want to make a sunset, you'll have to do it on your own. it's not a matter of just pressing a button. in fact the only setting I know that has optional pre-determined settings are the water colors, and even then you can chose the colors on your own.

Also, according to dave, "After discussion, the furaffinity staff have come to the conclusion that terragen images do fall under the generator category, because the sculpting is limited to up/down *and the majority of the generation is done by the computer itself with numerical inputs to tweak things like water level and moving the camera with the mouse.*" (source http://forums.furaffinity.net/showpost.php?p=563625&postcount=5 ), then every renderers violate the FA's terms of service since they all use at some extend numeral imputs, and people can move the camera around their model(s).

in fact, any 3D model which users didn't explicitely create every single polygons for it is a violation according to dave. this means that fractals, models using skeleton modeling, raytracing and such all are violations of the TOS if I go by what Dave said since it's the computer that does most of the work.

you might as well ban all 3D works while you're at it.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> in fact, any 3D model which users didn't explicitely create every single polygons for it is a violation according to dave. this means that fractals, models using skeleton modeling, raytracing and such all are violations of the TOS if I go by what Dave said since it's the computer that does most of the work.
> 
> you might as well ban all 3D works while you're at it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi


----------



## darkdoomer (Aug 26, 2008)

QT Melon said:


> Sir, can you reproduce these works without Terragen? I can draw in different programs and get the same results. If you can do the same thing in Terragen in other programs that use 3d then perhaps I'd change my vote to allow this on here.
> 
> As I see it, you don't have any fundamental understandings of art and it is very likely you cannot reproduce the works without it.



yeah of course.  i bet you know painter; oc, mspaint; photoshop illustrator or gimp. but what's th point to know many programs and use them all at ~10, 20 percent of their possibilities where someone with skills (!=furry smut roughly colored in photoshop...) will use one software at the limit of its possibilities.

tl; dr : you have no idea what you're talking about. grow up!


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 26, 2008)

darkdoomer said:


> tl; dr : you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. grow the fuck up.



You can't keep it civil you can go under moderation for now.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi


sorry to break it to you girl but it does address the current issue.


----------



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:


> You can't keep it civil you can go under moderation for now.


you're quite fast on moderating people are you?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> sorry to break it to you girl but it does address the current issue.



It actually addresses your argument which you tried to present as the current issue. At this point you're grasping at straws.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> you're quite fast on moderating people are you?



You weren't supposed to be taken off moderation either. You're allowed a grace for your argument. So you can keep up on it but since the rest of staff agreed you should have stayed on moderation it's quite easy to put you back on it.


----------



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:


> It actually addresses your argument which you tried to present as the current issue. At this point you're grasping at straws.


not at all, I'm pointing an obvious, potentially dangerous flaw in dave's argument.


----------



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:


> You weren't supposed to be taken off moderation either. You're allowed a grace for your argument. So you can keep up on it but since the rest of staff agreed you should have stayed on moderation it's quite easy to put you back on it.


that's what I meant. you're fast on moderating people.
I'm not ungrateful though, because having perfectly decent posts delayed for hours, even days really got on my nerves.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> not at all, I'm pointing an obvious, potentially dangerous flaw in dave's argument.



Which goes back to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi


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## darkdoomer (Aug 26, 2008)

obviously, having admin/mod privileges automatically validate your arguments on a given site. no matter how they're wrong.


----------



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:


> Which goes back to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi


*sigh*


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 26, 2008)

darkdoomer said:


> obviously, having admin/mod privileges automatically validate your arguments on a given site. no matter how they're wrong.



We aren't talking about whether or not one opinion is wrong, we're talking about keeping it civil. Wrong argument. You want to argue the validity of whether or not it should stay or go that is fine, however, the staff has pretty much voted it out. If all you can do is just cuss people out because you don't like the decision and their reasons I don't think much more can be said on the matter quite honestly.


----------



## darkdoomer (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> *sigh*


2nded.


----------



## dave hyena (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> any 3D model which users didn't explicitely create every single polygons for it is a violation according to dave.



The cornerstone of the Furaffinity acceptable upload policy is this:

"if you didnâ€™t create it or if it wasnâ€™t created specifically for you (gift/commission) then the Submission can not be posted."

http://www.furaffinity.net/lm/aup/

In this case, the part of most relevance is "by you". This foundation supports the screenshots, video and other visual media aspect: "items of artistic interest created by the user" are required in screen captures, screenshots and the like.

If someone gets "gary's mod" (If anyone is not familiar with it, it's a "sandbox" game where you can take models from various games and pose and play about with them to your heart's content) and then proceeds to take some screenshots of various models from a game being posed, that would not be allowed. Likewise, if you take models which were not made by you, and then pose them in poser, this is not so different and likewise, as discussed by the administration, not allowed.

The same policy which puts terragen as a generator also puts fractals as one (since likewise, their production is based around altering parameters in the software and then choose which outputs to save) and as such, they are not allowed either.

This is _absolutely not_ a forbiddence of 3-D art. People are free to upload renders of 3-D models that they have made (for example) but generated submissions and things without user made content of artistic interest are against the rules.


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

dave hyena said:


> The same policy which puts terragen as a generator also puts fractals as one (since likewise, their production is based around altering parameters in the software and then choose which outputs to save) and as such, they are not allowed either.


_prove it._


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

darkdoomer said:


> what actually makes me laugh, it's the behavior of *anonymousfurry*.
> that guy's a terragen user too , posted his stuffs on furaff, and is no better than *sammyfox*. what admins have to say about this? i call this behavior a global hypocrisy.



They don't have much to say about the hypocrisy because what it boils down to is you going off like a drama llama over a misunderstanding or, more like, deliberate attempt to derail my credibility.

I loaded the terragen renders I did to FA when they where allowed to be loaded.

I took them down after staff told me to and moved them to an appropriate venue.

I didn't argue and scream at people over it, or try to add fuel to the next drama flame I thought I could flare up a bit more.

I didn't go around telling everyone within my circle that your a hypocrite or go ranting off all negative about you...  or even Sammyfox for that matter.

Because I never claim to know everything there is to know about someone or something, I just post questions about my curiosities and such, and try to learn from the information I get.  I do it in a manner were which I hope to offend no one, while knowing some will get p*ssy just because you question the size of their b*lls, or the simple fact that they arnt the Gods of the world they would like to be.

And when it comes to that, I just simply report them.

Whats ironic though, is that when I do report them, it always seems like there being handled by staff already for treating others unkindly.

I guess some people never learn.

*That being said, and trying harder than some it may seem, to keep things on track...  This isn't supposed to be a thread about you, or me, whether I'm a worthless worm that is worthy of you grinding into the ground, or whether your so AWEZZZEM & RRRRIGHT that you need to be the next FA staff member.  This thread is supposed to be a discussion about whether or not Terragen Renders, in and of themselves, dont fall outside the scope of the "by you / for you" and "generator" clauses in FA's AUP, and thereby deserve to be allowed onto the site.

Maybe I just misunderstood, "What is Terragen (and why it should be allowed in FA)" for something more of what that means at face value, when I should have just seen it as just another part of the scene for Sammy and friends to perpetuate a drama/flame war.

Opinions... Opinions, dosnt mean you have to go off on a near psychotic rant fest just because you have to host your "generator" content someplace else, and if you want you furiends to see it, link em here on FA.

Jeesh!

I would like to skip a step and post my Terragen renders here to, but since FA is so awesome, and I appreciate the staff and the efforts they put into all of it, as well as them allowing me to use there expensive equipment for satisfying my other furry needs and wants, like keeping in touch with and making furiends, I don't have as big an issue as it seems you and Sammy do, about taking one extra step and hosting this stuff someplace else.

So I'm a good little kitten, or at least enough people tell me so that you going off about how horrible I am doesn't bother me as much as I think you would like it to.

It wont stop me from reporting you though.

;-)*


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## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> _prove it._



Yep, looks like I'll have to move that one too, but for now its still technically allowed.

I forwarded that submission to Dave, two weeks ago myself.

Thanks for pointing it out again.  ;-)

Once its deemed against the rules to be hosted here, I'll gladly move it off site with a smile on my face as I did my terragen renders, and still be significantly more pleased with FA and its staff, and feel at home here, than it seems you will be.

Proof is in the pudding eh?


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## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Yep, looks like I'll have to move that one too, but for now its still technically allowed.
> 
> I forwarded that submission to Dave, two weeks ago myself.
> 
> ...



bull****. you uploaded the terragen renders AFTER you reported my renders, to test the admins and now that they've banned tg renders you're doing the same for fractals. I don't know who you reported for his/her fractals but you're doing the same trick you did to me.

You're trying to shape this site the way you want. that's low.


----------



## StainMcGorver (Aug 26, 2008)

Terragen is for the pros only. I can pull up a few renders of almost godlike scenery, photo effects, and EVEN TREES! ^_^

I use it in my mapmaking almost CONSTANTLY (THANK YOU HAZEL H!). With the right amount of sugar, spice, and everything nice, you can make slightly good use of the fine product. When you add in skill (Chemical X) the limits of Terragen are... there really are no more limits. Since I haven't been at my UB3R 1337 computer for a while, I haven't uploaded the skyboxes I've made, except for my first one. I've made about 10 for a map pack I want to make/release for UT2004.


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## StainMcGorver (Aug 26, 2008)

dave hyena said:


> The cornerstone of the Furaffinity acceptable upload policy is this:
> 
> "if you didnâ€™t create it or if it wasnâ€™t created specifically for you (gift/commission) then the Submission can not be posted."
> 
> ...



So if I made a level for a video game (Unreal Tournament 2004, first person shooter, still alive and kicking.) with some textures (What you see on the model, like if it is made of rock or something, you see a rock material instead of just a plain gray model)that I did make myself and some that came with the game, and I take a screenshot, does that mean that it can't be put up on FA?
Or what if it's a logo of a company, i.e. Pepsi?

And yes, I make money doing this. I'm not a very popular kid, but I've been offered some green.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> bull****. you uploaded the terragen renders AFTER you reported my renders



I uploaded my terragen renders when I found out that they where allowed.

Took em down once it was decided that they where not.



> to test the admins



Test the admins?

You mean, like...  push their buttons?  If so Sammy, trust me, *you* got me all wrong.  I know though that there is probably very little hope in convincing you otherwise.

:-(



> and now that they've banned tg renders



They didnt "BAN" TG renders, you make it sound soooooooooo terrible, when its simply just a matter of them having chose, some time ago, what they want and what they dont want on their expensive equipment and what they would rather put their time and money into.  "Generator" content, in and of itself, just dosnt have a place in that.

Like I said before, I pretty much liked your TGen renders, and I really love some of the stuff people have loaded from using a fractal generator, and I would love if we didn't have to skip a step.  But for what its worth, I think what they said about the matter of "generators" being something that a computer makes - rather than what the user creates, really makes sense to me.  And if it didn't...  well so be it.  They even graciously offer me a forum to state any grievances I have, and just ask that I do it civilly and not put people down.  Bottom line though...  Its their tireless efforts, its their monetary resources, its their cool as F toy, and if I want to play with it...  I do it their way.

So far, my record is pretty much spotless in that regard...

Ummm,

Is yours?




> you're doing the same for fractals.



Ummm, what?

I'm not doing anything for fractals.

Oh...  you mean getting them "banned" from FA?

If thats the case...  You just bein silly Sammy.

I'm just a little nobody kitten...  I cant get fractals banned from FA.



> I don't know who you reported for his/her fractals



Now your really acting psychotic...

*looks around to see if he's being watched*

Ummm...  As far as I know...  I didn't report anyone for his/her fractals.

Did I post a report somewhere that I didn't know of.

*glances over the violation report forum*

...  Nope.

Unless your counting my Apo submission...  Is that what you mean?



> but you're doing the same trick you did to me.



Trick?

I'm really worried about you now.



> You're trying to shape this site the way you want. that's low.



If it where not for what I know of you Sammy, and the dealings I know you've had with staff and other people before, who don't agree with you, and how you treat people who don't just up and dance and sing your praises...  I would say that your sounding weird...  But, it seems your being no different than normal.

ANYWAYS...

I didn't think this thread was supposed to be about you or me, even more so not just another way for you and your friends to put me down, or anyone who disagrees with you for that matter, especially FA Staff.  I thought it was about, *"What is Terragen (and why it should be allowed in FA)"*.

*scratches between his ears looking confused*

What's this all about?


----------



## StainMcGorver (Aug 26, 2008)

I suggest that you two need to quit arguing, it's becoming more of a flame war more than anything.

Oh, and my question has not yet been answered.


----------



## Stratelier (Aug 26, 2008)

Stain, either that question was posed in a different thread or it got lost amidst all the TLDR.

Also, guys, if you want to quote multiple posts try opening the "Quote" button into a separate tab from the "Reply" button sometime, so you can copy/paste multiple quotes into the same reply post.



SammyFox said:


> _prove it._


I don't see how linking a random submission proves anything, Sammy.  Besides, if you consider it a violation go use the Violations forum already, that's what it's there for.

I have an analogy for the Terragen argument.  When you commission an artist, give them a set of instructions and objectives for a work, when all is said and done and you have the finished product, whose artistic blood and sweat is it?  We all know the answer to that question, and if it weren't for the "For you" clause of FA submission policy then you wouldn't be allowed to re-post commissioned works onto FA in the first place.

Now replace the commissioned artist with a computer and what you have . . . is a generator.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> TO:  Darkdoomer:
> 
> *That being said, and trying harder than some it may seem, to keep things on track...  This isn't supposed to be a thread about you, or me, whether I'm a worthless worm that is worthy of you grinding into the ground, or whether your so AWEZZZEM & RRRRIGHT that you need to be the next FA staff member.  This thread is supposed to be a discussion about whether or not Terragen Renders, in and of themselves, dont fall outside the scope of the "by you / for you" and "generator" clauses in FA's AUP, and thereby deserve to be allowed onto the site.
> 
> Maybe I just misunderstood, "What is Terragen (and why it should be allowed in FA)" for something more of what that means at face value, when I should have just seen it as just another part of the scene for Sammy and friends to perpetuate a drama/flame war.*





anonymousfurry said:


> TO:  Sammyfox:
> 
> ...ANYWAYS...
> 
> ...





StainMcGorver said:


> I suggest that you two need to quit arguing, it's becoming more of a flame war more than anything.



Its not just Sammy, and I'm not arguing...  I'm just asking honest and civil questions, while they're here and off on the main site flaming me, and puting down FA staff.  Its not like this is something new though.

I honestly thought that Sammy started this thread to discuss what Terragen is (although its not like the FA staff was making the decision they did, uninformed of what it was and how it is used.), and why it should be allowed in FA.

Instead it *seems* like this was just another part of the fuel that he and his friends want to pour onto their most recent flame war, for lulz.



> Oh, and my question has not yet been answered.



Concerning your question...  I don't think, given its limited abilities as a "3D modeler" (one of the big reasons its being counted as a generator) that using it to showcase a texture you made would be acceptable, if it was a smaller part of a general terragen render.  The problem is that the majority of a terragen render is still lacking user created content.  I do believe though, that if you used TGen to render 3D models and content you created, such as game scenes, where the *main theme* of the submission isn't "fractaly" generated terrain, clouds, and water, *in and of themselves*, it would be good to go.  Good luck doing that with the freeware version though.

No one ever said that TGen cant be used to make art, FA's policy just doesn't allow terragen renders, *in and of themselves, or as the primary subject of the upload* to be hosted on their servers, because it violates their "of you, for you" and "generator" policy.

It makes simple sense to me, and I'm being cool over it.

I'm even being cool over being attacked just because FA's policy makes more sense to me than it seems it does to them.

Some though, aren't being so cool, and that's just sad.

:-(


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 26, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> Stain, either that question was posed in a different thread or it got lost amidst all the TLDR.



TL;DR?  First of all...  Thought this was supposed to be a *discussion forum*, not limited to stating opinions and what not in one sentence or less, or for that matter, a picture instead of a thousand words.

Second of all... are you calling this TL;DR while at the same time not limiting your own responses?

Should I disregard what you just said and discredit it just because you chose to answer back in 5 paragraphs rather than 5 words?

;-)



> Also, guys, if you want to quote multiple posts try opening the "Quote" button into a separate tab from the "Reply" button sometime, so you can copy/paste multiple quotes into the same reply post.



Thanks for the tip...  Practice makes perfect.  If I'm still acting like the same noob that I am now when I have over 1,300 posts under my belt, you'd probably have every right to further put me down.  Except I dont know if FA forums are a place to put people down...  ya know insulting them on how many words they use in their posts, and poking at them because their not ultra experts on using quote features...  Maybe I'm wrong though...  Maybe thats why this is here, But I thought we where here to talk about What Terragen is and why it should be allowed on FA.



> I don't see how linking a random submission proves anything, Sammy.  Besides, if you consider it a violation go use the Violations forum already, that's what it's there for.



Since this is TL;DR, I dont know if your at a place were you'll even care to waste your time reading to this part, but if your here...

I sorta already reported that submission.  It was sent to Dave Hyena two weeks ago as part of the discussion concerning fractal generators.

As it stands at this point, the matter is still under review, but official stance is that this submission is still allowed.  Why?  Considering its obviously created with a generator, is beyond me, but it is still allowed.  As stated before, obviously lost on you because you didn't read that far...  or at least you said you didn't, I'll more than gladly remove the submission from FA, and relocate it to a system that is more than glad to host it, and link back here, because I would like for my furiends on FA to see how cool it is still...  And, of course because it will reference what Sammy and friends seem to be making out to be an EPIC point in FA's history.  Ummm...  I really don't get why they're going on the way they are about it, and feel it necessary to cut me down and hunt me down like some witch out to hex their happiness on FA.  But, like I mentioned before...  This isnt something unusual with Sammy and Company.

I'm not saying he or his friends, or you for that matter cant report the submission, but what I am saying is that, all things considered of course...  they already went that route, and it would really be very redundant, except if they want to keep perpetuating a flame war.

Aside from all that though, I would have to agree with you as to wondering how exactly that specific (not random) submission proves his point here.  This was all supposed to be an attempt to prove to dragoneer that terragen renders should be allowed on FA.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/441747/

*Are you getting that?*

I'm not.



> I have an analogy for the Terragen argument.  When you commission an artist, give them a set of instructions and objectives for a work, when all is said and done and you have the finished product, whose artistic blood and sweat is it?  We all know the answer to that question, and if it weren't for the "For you" clause of FA submission policy then you wouldn't be allowed to re-post commissioned works onto FA in the first place.
> 
> Now replace the commissioned artist with a computer and what you have . . . is a generator.



Are you trying to say that generator content should be allowed on FA because generators are created by a human being to make something for someone?

Hope you read this far, thanks for straining yourself...

If that's what you mean by babbling on about TL;DR.


----------



## Stratelier (Aug 26, 2008)

Did I say TLDR?  Oh, I did.  Maybe I should've used the term _drama_ instead.  That's what happens when you use a stock label to summarize a discussion, it never quite hits the mark and is wide open for interpretation.

But yes, I must confess to skipping over nearly all the first page in its entirety when I walked into this thread.  Considering that half of the responses to that point were by the OP and another half were multiple replies in a row (refer to tip about quoting multiple posts), I don't consider myself missing very much of the issue at hand.

And yes, I also have a tendency for verbose posting on my part without proportion to whatever I'm responding to 



anonymousfurry said:


> Are you trying to say that generator content should be allowed on FA because generators are created by a human being to make something for someone?


*NO*; viewing a response like that I do not know whether you read my analogy correct or not.

Summary of a commissioned work:

Person A gives artist B a list of objectives and instructions.  B does the drawing/painting (etc.) work and gives a nicely created work of art back to A.

Compare to a generator:

Person A gives computer B a list of parameters and instructions.  B does the computations and gives a nicely rendered fractal (landscape, Spore creature, etc.) back to A.

Notice the similarity?

Now while I am not much a fan of the "For you" clause in FA policy (being a staff member from a site with no such clause in its own rules), I do agree that if all you do is initiate some parameters then sit back and watch the generator produce all the results _with little to no further intervention_, that is not and _should_ not be equivalued to a hand-made, -drawn or -painted version of the same.

Which is one reason why, if you read up on dA policy, they require 'generators' to be Scrap submissions.


----------



## SammyFox (Aug 26, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> Which is one reason why, if you read up on dA policy, they require 'generators' to be Scrap submissions.


where the hell did you read this? I upload loads of terragen renders and I see others do the same and we aren't forced to keep them for the scraps


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> Did I say TLDR?  Oh, I did.  Maybe I should've used the term _drama_ instead.  That's what happens when you use a stock label to summarize a discussion, it never quite hits the mark and is wide open for interpretation.



Indeed.

So...  Not to derail the matter anymore than it could go concerning "interpretation", and considering were your at as far as answering back disproportionate to your ummm, generalizations...  Call it TLDR or DRAMA, I'm still left wondering...

Should I disregard what you just said and discredit it just because you chose to answer back in 5 paragraphs rather than 5 words?

Not just me, but Sammy or anyone else for that matter.  Outside he and his friends flaming me and the FA staff because they think we have differing opinions, I don't really mind actual discussions, which for me, aren't really discussions, say...  if someone answers to a paragraph you typed with one word, like...  "Yeah",  "NO!!!",  "TLDR" or, *giggles* "Indeed."

That would mean to me that they really don't want to be part of the "discussion".



> I don't consider myself missing very much of the issue at hand.



To be honest...  At the very first I hardly paid attention to the specific things he was posting concerning how to use TGen...  But then before I replied to anything, I looked over what he was doing, and thought that WOW, he has some serious skill that could be used to right up an awesome TGen tutorial...  Then I looked over everything and ended up thinking, WTF?  Were's this proof that he's supposed to be showing Dragoneer?

So I'm like...  Ya know, "Umm, whats this really all about?", and he starts flipping, but I don't know if he was never flipping in the first place.  This is pretty old stuff round here.



> And yes, I also have a tendency for verbose posting on my part without proportion to whatever I'm responding to



No need to frown over it.  I don't mind so much, its just that I question the ummm dynamic of using it in negative context to move a conversation in a better direction.

I just think you can go further, faster, by being nice.

Unlike the flamers...  Not that I think your one of them and I dont mean it to sound that way, but just checking.  Maybe I feel a little crisp around the edges round this point.



> *NO*; viewing a response like that I do not know whether you read my analogy correct or not.



Okay, now I think we're on the same page.  I'm glad I asked for you to clear up that misunderstand and apologize for misreading it.



> Now while I am not much a fan of the "For you" clause in FA policy



Neither am I.  Since it just means double posts, if not more, were the higher ups are always going on about expensive server resources and such.  Not only that, but it just seems like they're handing "dirty up our servers" on a silver platter, to whoever will, which seems odd to want to not try to avoid when software coding problems wreak so much havoc on their image.

It would seem to me like they would be willing to try to enforce more of a squeaky clean server set, by just simply writing it into the AUP to link gift art.  As it is, you double post and link...  sorta redundant.

On the other "paw", the "for you" clause makes more sense than saying generator content, by itself, or as the main theme of a submision, is user created art.

To me anyways.



> I do agree that if all you do is initiate some parameters then sit back and watch the generator produce all the results _with little to no further intervention_, that is not and _should_ not be equivalued to a hand-made, -drawn or -painted version of the same.



Indeed.  ;-)



> Which is one reason why, if you read up on dA policy, they require 'generators' to be Scrap submissions.



Oh jeesh...  watch it now...  Sammys gonna come back at you hard because if he cant post his TGen renders on DA, why is he even on the internets?

Or thats the way he's made it sound.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> TO:  Stratadrake
> 
> where the h[*CENSORED*]ll did you read this?



*crys*

Now I know why I like Wikipedia so much...  "Citation Needed", just sounds so much nicer and to the point.  Not like your coming down on and making an enemy out of anyone and everyone who disagrees with you.

I mean, I'm all for you taking part in the conversation, at a civil level and all, and ya know, wording it as long or short as you like...  but don't you think it would go better if you could just chill?



> I upload loads of terragen renders and I see others do the same and we aren't forced to keep them for the scraps



You uploaded loads of terragen render here too, and it wasnt a matter of you or myself being forced to remove them, its simply a matter of complying to the TOS and AUP for the sites your using.  You agreed to comply, unless someone forced your finger to click...  no one is forcing you to do anything.

If Its DA's policy that generator content belongs in the scraps folder in order for them to host that content...  Why is it such an issue to realize your mistake and correct the situation, so that your using someone else's computer, software, bandwidth, time and effort, the way you agreed to?

That being said, its probably not useful here on FA to discus that particular issue in trying to resolve what Terragen is, and why it should be allowed in FA, although I get what Stratadrake is saying.

Makes sense...  no need to derail.


----------



## Stratelier (Aug 27, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> where the hell did you read this? I upload loads of terragen renders and I see others do the same and we aren't forced to keep them for the scraps


DeviantART's FAQ#502 addresses that 'kits', 'generators', and 'dolls' may only be placed in Scraps, for the very same underlying reasons that FA prohibits them in the first place

Yet as you point out, deviantART does *not* classify Terragen landscapes and fractals among the generators, and they _do_ have submission galleries that welcome them.

*That is dA*, Sammy.  FurAffinity's rules are different.


----------



## Rafeal (Aug 27, 2008)

How about this...

It has been decided. 

Leave it alone.

Quit eating up space on this God-forsaken forum server.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> DeviantART's FAQ#502 addresses that 'kits', 'generators', and 'dolls' may only be placed in Scraps, for the very same underlying reasons that FA prohibits them in the first place
> 
> But as you point out, deviantART does *not* classify Terragen landscapes and fractals among the generators, ...and they _do_ have submission galleries that welcome them.



AWESOME!!!

I just load any content that isn't allowed on FA on Photo Bucket now, but I think that its more than cool, that if DA was ever to classify content generated by a Fractal Generator as ummm...  generator content, that they still are gracious enough to host it, even though they would want it in the scraps folder.

So... no biggy?

Sammy has a home for his TGen renders, and everyfur will have a place that will happily host their fractal generator content, if FA doesn't want it here.  Their choice, and like I've said from the beginning, there are soooooo many places on the internet for it, if this isn't the place for it.

What's the fuss?



> But of course, Sammy, FurAffinity is not deviantART and this is where the submission policies and practices differ.



Is that all?

;-)


----------



## icehawk (Aug 27, 2008)

dave hyena said:


> If someone gets "gary's mod" (If anyone is not familiar with it, it's a "sandbox" game where you can take models from various games and pose and play about with them to your heart's content) and then proceeds to take some screenshots of various models from a game being posed, that would not be allowed. Likewise, if you take models which were not made by you, and then pose them in poser, this is not so different and likewise, as discussed by the administration, not allowed.
> 
> The same policy which puts terragen as a generator also puts fractals as one (since likewise, their production is based around altering parameters in the software and then choose which outputs to save) and as such, they are not allowed either.



I don't really care about Terragen, but I could technically say the same thing about actual landscape photography. The landscape is already there, and short of hiring a construction crew, or starting a fire, there's very little I can do to change the scenery itself. I can move myself around around within the scene, and mess with the buttons and siders on my camera that control the exposure/aperture/zoom/color (many of which end up being software parameters in the firmware of my camera.)


----------



## Stratelier (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafeal said:


> How about this...
> 
> It has been decided.
> 
> Leave it alone.


*Thank you*.
Anonymous, I know I haven't read all the discussion -- the more impassioned discourse especially -- but part of the reason for that is right there in the quote box: I don't want to be entangled in this skirmish.

Frankly, I have no stake in this matter to defend.  I don't fractal, Terragen, meme or dollmaker.

But I do know _from experience_* what FA's admins go through having to deal with reports, as well as the occasional discussion/skirmish/dramafest/whatever that pops up around it.

...perhaps that experience is why I even stepped in here to begin with.

(* - I have a moderator position on a different art site, that's how)


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

icehawk said:


> ...the firmware of my camera.)



Technically speaking there are some people who have argued till they are purple in the face, for a long time now, that Photography is not art.

Most of the arguments and rants about the matter going on long before camera's had firmware.  GASP!!!  I know...  Ancient history eh?  ;-)

Some, in the ancient debates pondered peace in the form of diplomatic resolve, saying things like...  okay, perhaps there is some photography that can be considered artistic.

Besides, if someone take a photograph for purposes other than being artistic, does that mean that the photograph is still art?

Oh...  the matter has been tossed and turned for so long, not by everybody, but by many enough, just like many other subjects...  as many people can say one thing about an issue as can those who would speak contrary to what they say.  Some go about it civily, and others put down anyone who would disagree with them.

You need look no further than your own FA to see that.

;-)

So...  your saying that TGen is the digital equivelent of someone taking a photograph of an actual landscape, and this is why it should be allowed past the generator clauses of FA Policy?

Or are you saying that FA should allow generator content because they allow photography?

If its the latter, would you say that just because they allow a wide scope of photography, it means that they cant be selective in how people use their equipment, and say that photographs containing human nudity violate the terms that people agreed to when they accepted TOS and AUP to use the site?

I mean, isn't that like me saying, "You can use my big screen TV to watch star trek movies, but no pr0n", and you going right to it and popping in a pr0n and looking at me unkindly and saying, "HEY, YOU SAID I COULD USE YOUR TV!!!  DEAL!!!", and then going off the deep end because I look back at you with the biggest WTF look I can muster?


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> (* - I have a moderator position on a different art site, that's how)



Cool, doesn't take being a moderator on another site to have a valid part in this discussion, passion or not.

Enough said?



*clears throat*

I mean...



Rafeal said:


> How about this...
> 
> It has been decided.
> 
> ...



ENOUGH Said >>>?<<<

;-)


----------



## CHICAGOÂ¤lollie (Aug 27, 2008)

Why is this thread still open?

No, really. Why?




Terragen is a terrain generator.
Images made solely with the use of a generator are not permitted on Fur Affinity.
Yes, there are users on Fur Affinity who still have this material in their gallery. Don't like it? Report it.
No, there is no way you can explain your way out of it otherwise. No, arguing won't work either. Yes, you are allowed to be wrong.


----------



## Haystack (Aug 27, 2008)

SammyFox said:


> I'm sorry but I have a perfect understanding of art. art is used to pass messages, it's used to make beautiful things, things that catch the eye and the imagination of people, things people look at and then will look at it again because it's that pretty.



Do you?   Some of the best art is as far from "pretty" as one could possibly get.

e.g.:  Tom Huck (www.evilprints.com), Albrecht DÃ¼rer, H.R. Giger, Vincent van Gogh, Francisco Goya,  and Hieronymus Bosch. 

No, art is NOT all about The Pretty.  It is about sending messages; you're right there, at least.  Sometimes those messages aren't pretty, either.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Okay...

It seemed like Sammy started this thread as an offshoot of a journal he posted on his space on the main site.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/441747/

In it, he says that he had talked to Dragoneer, and made it seem that he could convince Dragoneer to go back on a staff decision made after informed discussion about TGen renders being generator content, and thereby not something that they deem acceptable to be loaded to and hosted on their equipment.

Seemingly this thread was supposed to be that attempt.

Seemingly.

Except for overstating the obvious fact that he thinks that TGen renders should be allowed on the site.  I say obvious because I don't think anyone ever doubted him as far as thats concerned.  The entire thread, seems to be lacking in value as to being something that I would think would change Dragoneers mind.

Is it me, or am I missing something here?

The discussion, aside from it being meant, supposedly to convince Dragoneer to go back on a staff decision, is, or is supposed to be, "What is Terragen (and why it should be allowed in FA)".

Sifting through the meat that is actually relevant, I see most people agreeing that TGen and other fractal generators are indeed generators (not that they hide the fact), and thereby don't have a place on FA, in accordance to the AUP.  Some people seem to react to it as being blatantly obvious, Sammy doesn't...  Some people think I'm a pr*ck for even bringing it up, and I guess I should be hung, seems like Sammy agrees...  FA admin seem not to like Sammy all that much, and he dont like them...  That makes sense to me, even though its sad.  And best of all, like I said way back in the beginning, there are like hundreds of ways to get wonderful or not so wonderful generator content served to your friends and neighbors on the internet.  Just because it doesn't belong here, shouldn't be such a crippling issue, as it seems Sammy is trying to make it out to be, and put me down because I just dont get it.

Did I miss something?


----------



## icehawk (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Technically speaking there are some people who have argued till they are purple in the face, for a long time now, that Photography is not art.
> 
> Most of the arguments and rants about the matter going on long before camera's had firmware.  GASP!!!  I know...  Ancient history eh?  ;-)



Not that ancient. I still have a number of film cameras, and a very large list of slides(!)/negatives that need scanning.



anonymousfurry said:


> Some, in the ancient debates pondered peace in the form of diplomatic resolve, saying things like...  okay, perhaps there is some photography that can be considered artistic.
> 
> Besides, if someone take a photograph for purposes other than being artistic, does that mean that the photograph is still art?



You could also ask the reverse: "If someone draws something, and say it's technically excellent, but they did it because they were bored, is it still art?" but yeah, the question of 'what is art' has been asked since we came up with the concept, and I don't have any new answers.




anonymousfurry said:


> So...  your saying that TGen is the digital equivelent of someone taking a photograph of an actual landscape, and this is why it should be allowed past the generator clauses of FA Policy?
> 
> Or are you saying that FA should allow generator content because they allow photography?



Like I said before, I really don't care. I'm not interested in looking at that stuff on FA, (or any of the photography for that matter) so I don't. I just feel that "Moving sliders and presing butans isn't art" was a weak argument that should either be expanded and made more specific, or something like "this just isn't the kind of content we want on the site" (aka: Admin fiat, which can be a perfectly good answer.)


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> Why is this thread still open?
> 
> No, really. Why?



I don't know...  maybe because we're waiting for more staff input...

*shrugs*

If you dont like it...

Report it?

Maybe, "they" will tell you.

I don't see why its a "violation" though.

;-)


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

Personally I'm indifferent because I don't make 3D art. But, I do have to say there is a lot of venom in peoples words here and quick assumptions and misunderstandings all over the place. Don't defend your opinions with insults it doesn't make you seem greater than everyone else on here that disagrees (Goes for both sides of the discussion). I believe from what I've seen both sides have presented good evidence for each side, but obviously nothings changed which means it is likely evened out. I suggest getting more evidence instead of attacking people. I have to say I had to skip parts of this thread because it gets very redundant, and neither side in my opinion has convinced me one way or the other. I am interested in seeing what comes of this once it is over though.


----------



## Ebon Lupus (Aug 27, 2008)

Tarragon is a pungent leafy spice that has an anise (liquorice) flavor. It goes good on broiled fish and in cheese casserole dishes.

Oh, and it should be on FA because it goes good in cheesy and fishy things. *winks*


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> Personally I'm indifferent because I don't make 3D art.



You don't have to be indifferent just because you dont make 3D art.  Its supposed to be a discussion about what TGen is and why it should be allowed here on FA, or what it isn't and why it shouldn't be allowed here on FA.




> But, I do have to say there is a lot of venom in peoples words here and quick assumptions and misunderstandings all over the place.



Hmm...  I sorta thought the "venom" had kindly been removed by staff.  I do have to agree that some harsh words still remain, but this particular thread has certainly been a lot milder towards me and staff about the matter, than what was said in other related threads on forums and on the main site.  I do owe a certain amount of gratitude to Sammy to that regard, and even might mention if I can that his response to the only staff member who has answered to this thread, and was admittedly a bit off topic when they did, Sammy responded to a lot more civilly than it seems his average is.

The "venom" seems to be elsewhere still, what you pick up on here is almost a tamed down version of whats going on outside this forum.  For instance...  I don't know why, but Sammy was banned from the main site.  I hope its not vain to say that I hope it wasn't because of his Venom concerning me in his journal before he edited it.  He did eventually edit it, and although I think it was inappropriate for him to do what he did and he jumped to a conclusion as far as I'm concerned (I'm not doing this for f*p fodder, Sammy), I can understand his reaction in his misunderstanding.  But since he has been mostly civil to me since he our little "spat" 2 weeks ago, I don't think its necessary to ban him for that.  Unfortunately though, Sammy has a running record with FA staff, as much as I would have liked to see it not play a part here in this particular discussion or just the subject in general, I guess some things just cant be avoided.

In that, I think you may just be unaware of the majority of what is going on, if you where aware, I would take a guess that you would be more understanding of the situation, or you wouldn't be saying what you did about it.



> Don't defend your opinions with insults it doesn't make you seem greater than everyone else on here that disagrees (Goes for both sides of the discussion).



Unfortunately, when people are passionate about their feelings and opinions, this is how things come out.  Often, in fact I don't know of any times were it works contrary, being this way doesn't do any good for the person who is throwing insults.  Personally I like Sammy's richness and the deepness of his character...  or how it seems that he is this way.  He seems to be a lot less superficial than a lot of furs I know, and he gains my respect because of that.  Were things start to falter concerning that respect though, is when I know he makes people wince, because something they are saying or doing puts them at risk for being attacked by him, and him calling his hounds out.  I think he would be the absolute sh*t, if he could learn how to use his anger for more appropriate things than putting people down.



> I believe from what I've seen both sides have presented good evidence for each side, but obviously nothings changed which means it is likely evened out. I suggest getting more evidence instead of attacking people. I have to say I had to skip parts of this thread because it gets very redundant, and neither side in my opinion has convinced me one way or the other.



I dont know if any other side was actually trying to prove something except for Sammy and Company.  Everyone else was just agreeing with the staff decision that TGen renders "in and of themselves, or as the main theme of a submission" are generator content, and thereby are not to be hosted on FA.

I guess I sort of agree though, that it would be useful to have a little bit more objective input from other staff members, especially Dragoneer, since according to Sammy, this was originally set up to convince him to go back on a staff decision.



> I am interested in seeing what comes of this once it is over though.



Me too.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Ebon Lupus said:


> Tarragon is a pungent leafy spice that has an anise (liquorice) flavor. It goes good on broiled fish and in cheese casserole dishes.
> 
> Oh, and it should be on FA because it goes good in cheesy and fishy things. *winks*



Not to derail the thread...  (but because I think some humor would be a good antidote for that venom, so long as it don't go overboard) but are you saying that it would go good with Tuna Fish Casserole?

Or only Tuna Fish Casserole "generators", like...  lets say, Tuna Helper?





BTW, My condolences for the recent loss in your family.  :-(


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

On the 3D art thing I was just meaning that personally it would not effect me nor my opinion of others. Personally everyone has their own definition of art because different things effect people differently.

As for my venom comment: I can see how it was a lot milder I suppose I said venom because it seems that it seemed unnecessarily heated to some responses like the very first response on here, but of course i don't know the full story nor do i know everyone here that well to tell what is outside of normal and whats not.

My insult comment: Well my family tends to debate a lot so I've come to an understanding of trying to keep insults to a low as it only aggravates things, and sometimes cannot grasp why others would resort to using such words instead of putting their passion aside for a less trashing discussion.

Input from more Staff members would be wonderful, for interacting with this discussion would probably greatly help this discussion move forward onto finding a hopefully happy end.


----------



## Magnus (Aug 27, 2008)

will this tiresome chit chat have influence on the actual problem OP has?


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

Magnus said:


> will this tiresome chit chat have influence on the actual problem OP has?


Likely not but its good for keeping people distracted.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> Likely not



Unfortunately I think your right.



> but its good for keeping people distracted.



I didn't know that was the point.

Distracted from what?

:-?


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> I didn't know that was the point.
> 
> Distracted from what?
> 
> :-?



Oh just because the site isn't working so more people patrolling. I happened across this because of the site crash I have to say it kept me distracted from the site being down for awhile and even though there are some not so nice parts wasn't that bad of a read.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> Oh just because the site isn't working so more people patrolling. I happened across this because of the site crash I have to say it kept me distracted from the site being down for awhile and even though there are some not so nice parts wasn't that bad of a read.



Oh, yeah...  Well it was started before then.

I dont know about site discussions falling into the entertainment category, I hope your not reading a place for humor here as justification for Sammy's concern and the decisions of the staff not to be taken seriously.

You do know there are threads meant for entertainment here on the forums site, very much void of the "not so nice parts", don't you?


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Oh, yeah...  Well it was started before then.
> 
> I dont know about site discussions falling into the entertainment category, I hope your not reading a place for humor here as justification for Sammy's concern and the decisions of the staff not to be taken seriously.
> 
> You do know there are threads meant for entertainment here on the forums site, very much void of the "not so nice parts", don't you?



I wasn't reading it for the entertainment value please do not get me wrong (I am also fighting off sleep so I may not be saying things how I mean too) I never said this was humorous I was intrigued by what Terragen exactly was and how it worked and Sammy presented it well. I noticed that there was several pages of discussion and I happen to be a curious sort and I wanted to see what had come of his explanation. In no way do I find this a hilarious discussion I find it entertaining because it is constructed by many intelligent words and I find that to be a rarity on forums and it was entertaining because it actually made my mind think. It was not a "Oh lawl lets see these people fight! I put 2 dollars on this one!" it was purely my interest got perked and I got sucked in and really couldn't turn away. I enjoy debates and discussions especially when there are people in it showing that they are intellectuals.

Also I know it started before then hince why I said I don't know all thats gone on.

Seriously do not think I am reading this purely for the fact it distracts me from other things -granted thats how I came to this forum- my true intentions know are to purely add my thoughts on how it was going and the fact that I really am interested in seeing what happens in the end.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> I wasn't reading it for the entertainment value please do not get me wrong



I didnt mean that to sound accusatory either.  What you said only rang slightly of someone saying they where here for lulz, and very slightly at that, I might add.  More than that, I was thinking that the humor break started by the otherwise very witty and wise Ebon Lupus (who probably also popped in because the main site is down) could have been seen by some as turning this all into a joke.  I don't think he would want to see it move in that direction, and by going along with him, I wasn't trying to establish that kind of precedent either.  So I wasn't pointing a finger at you and saying WOH!!!  What ya trying to prove here, just simply trying to clear things up and make sure we where still as much on track as we can be, while it seems we keep teetering on the brink of the thread being derailed, and still be pleasant hearted about it.



> (I am also fighting off sleep so I may not be saying things how I mean too)



Yeah, me too.



> I never said this was humorous



I know...  Although the tarragon thing...  Well anyways.




> I was intrigued by what Terragen exactly was and how it worked and Sammy presented it well.



I don't think he was trying to do this, but I think he would kick tail at doing tutorials.  I mean, WAH!

Stating his case as to why TGen renders should be allowed on FA...

Not so WAH!  ;-)



> ...it was purely my interest got perked and I got sucked in and really couldn't turn away. I enjoy debates and discussions especially when there are people in it showing that they are intellectuals.







> Also I know it started before then hince why I said I don't know all thats gone on.



I didn't mean to make it sound like your opinion doesn't matter, because it does...  And I realize that the lions share of what goes on between Sammy Fox and the Staff here, goes on without most other users being aware of it, not on his part though, but on the staffs part...  it's supposed to be that way.

Sammy is one of the harder ones to like, never the less, some of us just cant help liking him, and wish he wouldn't be such a hard pill to swallow.  Its okay for him to be a hard pill to swallow, that's part of what gives him so much character, but not such a hard pill to swallow, that he's so frequently moderated and to justify the staff to have their fingers on standby so often to ban his bottom, especially when he goes on the war path over something like this, and calls out the hounds.  Its just really, sooooooooo futile and unnecessary.



> Seriously do not think I am reading this purely for the fact it distracts me from other things -granted thats how I came to this forum- my true intentions know are to purely add my thoughts on how it was going and the fact that I really am interested in seeing what happens in the end.



Understood ;-)


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Understood ;-)


Cool :3 (Hope I didn't accidentally make an arse of myself.)
Now I shall watch this forum to see what comes of this.


----------



## Lt_Havoc (Aug 27, 2008)

Ya know, then you guys could also ban every other 3D application that usese pre render stuff, like poser, because you can get a ton of models for those programs from various sites and can throw together your own stuff without much work. Dont see a problem why pics that are done with a highly pseicalized redering tool are forbidden. Its not like you make one click and you are done, most landscapes are modled anyway. 

The only other program that can do such things would be 3DSMax, but only in the 5000 Euros worth full version of it, that or you have Hammer and make such stuff with the source engine. Dont see an argument here for banning it.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> Cool :3 (Hope I didn't accidentally make an arse of myself.)



According to me, you didn't get anywhere close to accidentally making an arse of yourself.

I hope I didn't either.



> Now I shall watch this forum to see what comes of this.



I'm sorta thinkin Dragoneer aint gonna be inspired enough to VETO the other staff on this one.

I honestly didn't even know Dragoneer would offer a chance for someone to convince him to VETO a staff decision, especially since i was told by one of the key admins handling this topic, that Dragoneer was in on the discussion that came to the conclusion that TGen renders (bla bla... you already heard it) where generator content and thereby no longer allowed on the site.

I guess Sammy was thinking that the FA staff cant make an informed decision on an application because they don't know how its used, but as far as I see it, the decision changed once they where informed of how it's used and what it is.

Doesn't, "What is Terragen...", imply that the OP (Sammy) doesn't think the people who he is talking to (Dragoneer and the FA staff) know?

As far as the other part...  "...and why it should be allowed in FA", the only thing we're working on on his side of the argument is pretty much simply because he wants it to be, and ummm...  something about it being the only way for him to artistically express himself, and...  and...  not allowing it would mean he would loose his "furry" home.

?!?!

Then people jumped in with the TGEN IS ART D*MN IT thing, which isnt the point here, and it started going down hill from there.

Some people consider pr0nographic pictures of human yiffy bits art too...  in fact, lots of people do...  The "ITS ART D*MN IT" argument seems to be big with a lot of people, but its odd how they think it can be used to to deem uploading it (or anything else that can be called art) to FA as their constitutional / God given right.

It may also need to be mentioned that I know the FA staff knew this decision would set off sparks with some people...  Perhaps, that considered, Dragoneer was just allowing a buffer when letting Sammy state his case, but I doubt seriously that he meant to open the door for this to happen, although part of me thinks he knew it, that would be why I wished from the start that Sammy could be civil about the matter.

He's not been banned from the forum site...  last I checked.

And...

I don't know if the issue is really as up in the air as it may sound to some.

But, we'll see.


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

Nah you didn't make an arse of yourself. I Did get slightly defensive at some of the things you said but I understood why you said them so no harm no foul :3



anonymousfurry said:


> Some people consider pr0nographic pictures of human yiffy bits art too...  in fact, lots of people do...  The "ITS ART D*MN IT" argument seems to be big with a lot of people, but its odd how they think it can be used to to deem uploading it (or anything else that can be called art) to FA as their constitutional / God given right.



I completely agree. 
There are differing degrees of "Art" and the fact is some degrees of "Art" are not considered art by many. Its very much in the eye of the beholder. From what I can tell of their Decision is that is was so then those who put a ton of effort creating things from scratch doing the math of "If I have them do this then this is where the arm will be." or "If the hill is this tall and the sun is here then this is where the shadow will be and how tall/long the shadow is.". Fact of the matter is if it was deemed to not be art for how FA is then for FA it is not considered art even if people in there believe that it is, whilst other places may accept it.

Also there is nothing that says you cannot have an FA account along with other art site accounts.


----------



## Ebon Lupus (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Not to derail the thread...  (but because I think some humor would be a good antidote for that venom, so long as it don't go overboard) but are you saying that it would go good with Tuna Fish Casserole?
> 
> Or only Tuna Fish Casserole "generators", like...  lets say, Tuna Helper?
> 
> BTW, My condolences for the recent loss in your family.  :-(



You're right. Going overboard might get too fishy. And yeah, it's great in tuna casserole.

Thank you for the condolences.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Lt_Havoc said:


> Ya know, then you guys could also ban every other 3D application that usese pre render stuff, like poser, because you can get a ton of models for those programs from various sites and can throw together your own stuff without much work.



Odd you should mention that...  Poser renders, that are just a bunch of non user created models, also fall outside the scope of FA's AUP.  This pertains to the scenerio as you mentioned it, for any application be it POSER, SL, MAX, MAYA, POV, TRUESPACE, Bryce, or any other number of 3D modelers and render tools.



> Dont see a problem why pics that are done with a highly pseicalized redering tool are forbidden. Its not like you make one click and you are done, most landscapes are modled anyway.



As I understand it no one said that using highly specialized rendering tools where forbidden, in fact, its specifically mentioned more than once that they aren't, and specifically what is.

I think if you really look into the matter, you'll see that only one side is really generalizing the issue.



> The only other program that can do such things would be 3DSMax, but only in the 5000 Euros worth full version of it



Umm...  Max isnt the only program that does "such things". (See aforementioned, especially the "...any other number of 3D modelers and render tools", part.)

Umm, right now...  (it didnt take much effort to figure this out) Max v9 - new - goes for $3,519.11 on amazon, and you can get it legitimately - used - on Ebay or Amazon, for around $400.  Naturally if you want to save more money, you could look for lower versions.  Thats one of the glories about software.  The good stuff doesn't become drastically less useful just because its older...  Most of the freeware version of TGen is like a decade old.  Yes...  people have been squeeing ZOMG were did you take that picture!?!? at TGen renders since before I started playing with it, way back in 99.  Back then I got kicks because I made some other kids think that I took a picture of the surface of mars through my high power telescope, and even got raised eyebrows from some teachers.  Software dosnt have to be the newest most expensive version or even commercially released, in order to achieve amazing results.  And, 3D modeling applications and rendering programs (sometimes they are entirely separate things, but often times they are combined to one degree or the other) arnt so specialized that there are only two applications out there to use if you want to model and render a landscape.



> that or you have Hammer and make such stuff with the source engine.



Yeah, no kidding eh...  who does that any more!?!?

LOL



> Dont see an argument here for banning it.



Banning what?

Nothing's been banned yet, that I know of...  except for Sammy.

Ummm, Sammy deleted his own terragen renders while this was being discussed...  I guess he was trying to spoof the old BAWWWWWW  I'M LEAVING 4 EVER thing that he and his kind enjoy laughing at.  When he "came back", I guess he thought the joke was on him, but its not, its simply just a matter of the AUP never allowing generator content "in and of itself, or as the main theme of a submission" to be hosted on FA.

My terragen renders where not even "banned".  I was told two weeks ago that they where allowed, and I was asked nicely to take them down, once it was decided that they didn't belong here anymore, I gladly complied...  and Sammy...  well this is were Sammy took it.

And just to make sure you understand how I see it...  Using specialized or advanced, or not so specialized or advanced 3D applications isn't what is not being allowed on FA, generator content, in and of itself, or as the main theme of a submission is, because it almost blatantly contradicts the FA's policy requiring content to be user created or created for the user, in order to have a place on FA.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> Nah you didn't make an arse of yourself. I Did get slightly defensive at some of the things you said but I understood why you said them so no harm no foul :3



;-)



> I completely agree.







> From what I can tell of their Decision is that is was so then those who put a ton of effort creating things from scratch...
> 
> ...Fact of the matter is if it was deemed to not be art for how FA is then for FA it is not considered art even if people in there believe that it is, whilst other places may accept it.



Hmmm...  Well I don't think FA staff made the decision because they don't think its art.  Thats not really the issue here, although one of the staff and Sammy & Company sorta made it sound that way.

The issue here is more simply that its a matter of Terra*gen* being a "generator", which means that 99%, if not more of the work done in creating what you see in a TGen render, is done without any effort on the part of the person using the computer, even if they utilize the sculpting feature, overlay the terrain with textures they created themselves, or no matter how long they spend toggling settings for the color and level of the water in the scene, or where the sun is.

Like I mentioned before...  When I've used Terragen to render a scene, no part of the experience makes me think that the computer output is an artistic result that I made.  I can spend a minute on it, or an hour or two...  then I click a button, and go play on SL and/or browse FA.  For me, to say that what the computer does after I tell it what to do and the end result is my art, would be like (and I think this has been mentioned before) me telling someone else that I want them to paint me a landscape, and I want the sun rays to spray from the clouds just so...  I want the reflections on the water to be just like that...  I want the overall color of the scene to be mostly like this...  and so forth and so on...  and as they work on it, I run off and fiddle faddle on SL, go shopping, sleep, yiff, f*p to FA, eat, or whatever, they call me up when their done with it, show it to me, and I name it and get to say that I created it.

Isn't that sort of unfair?

Which leads me to what you said...

I think as far as the part you mention, as FA offering more support for the person who actually puts artistic efforts into creating what they do, is the foundation of the reason the "by you / for you" clause is the cornerstone of FA's acceptable use/upload and terms of service policy.

So yeah... that all makes sense to me.



> Also there is nothing that says you cannot have an FA account along with other art site accounts.



Nope, there isnt.  ;-)


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Ebon Lupus said:


> You're right. Going overboard might get too fishy.



Fish smells like fish.



> And yeah, it's great in tuna casserole.



For a little kitten full of p*ss and vinegar, needing energy so he can be full of, umm, other things, that sounds way YUMMY!!!

Hey!?!?  What's a wolf doing knowing that Tuna Casserole tastes good!?!?  ;-)



> Thank you for the condolences.



From the deepest parts of my heart and soul, your most certainly welcome.


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

Thanks for clearing it up on the whether or not they say it is art. :3
I should have said Acceptable art instead of whether or not it is art. 
I'm glad we are basically on the same page.


----------



## Darksocks (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Hey!?!?  What's a wolf doing knowing that Tuna Casserole tastes good!?!?  ;-)



Perhaps they were feeding a feline they wanted to eat and so shared a meal with the feline to get the feline to be... Meatier?


----------



## dmfalk (Aug 27, 2008)

How is this any different to techno music made in FL Studio, which is allowed on FA?

I think that instead of focusing on the "generator" aspect, that it should be determined on how much control the user has for originality. Some things I can understand not being allowed, but I think the weight of this argument should be on the degree of originality.

d.m.f.


----------



## CHICAGOÂ¤lollie (Aug 27, 2008)

Lt_Havoc said:


> Ya know, then you guys could also ban every other 3D application that usese pre render stuff, like poser, because you can get a ton of models for those programs from various sites and can throw together your own stuff without much work. Dont see a problem why pics that are done with a highly pseicalized redering tool are forbidden. Its not like you make one click and you are done, most landscapes are modled anyway.


Stop.

Download Terragen.

Use it.

Give us a report on the amount of effort you had to put in to create something in it.

There is VERY MINIMAL effort required. The most you've got in terms of modeling is raising and lowering parts of land. But honestly, _that is it_. There's no vertices to move into place, and you're not working with NURBS. It's simply click to make this section higher or lower.

Also, from memory, renders with Poser are actually also not allowed on FA either, _unless_ the models were created by yourself.



> The only other program that can do such things would be 3DSMax, but only in the 5000 Euros worth full version of it, that or you have Hammer and make such stuff with the source engine. Dont see an argument here for banning it.


3DSMax is _not_ a generator. There's a shittonne of things in it that require actual learning and patience to be able to create something half decent. You can't just tell it to make a head and let it do the rest, no. You get a cube, and you cut that cube in a billion ways and mold every vertex into shape until it _resembles_ a face.








dmfalk said:


> How is this any different to techno music made in FL Studio, which is allowed on FA?
> 
> I think that instead of focusing on the "generator" aspect, that it should be determined on how much control the user has for originality. Some things I can understand not being allowed, but I think the weight of this argument should be on the degree of originality.


...y

you.




In no way am I going to defend techno music. Personally, it is a genre that I cannot stand, and a label that I _loathe_. On the same note, I do not like FruityLoops. BUT, FruityLoops is *not* music-generating software. Each note is entered by the user, and everything is hand-sequenced. Chances are, what you're hearing out of it is purely just unoriginality, and a lot of it.

FruityLoops has no place in this thread. Try Apple Garageband. It's not quite there either, but with its vast collection of stock loops, it's a hell of a lot closer.


----------



## Stratelier (Aug 27, 2008)

(Ack, to think that this thread was only on page five when I hit the hay . . . and I only got 3-4 hours of sleep, too.)


----------



## CHICAGOÂ¤lollie (Aug 27, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> (Ack, to think that this thread was only on page five when I hit the hay . . . and I only got 3-4 hours of sleep, too.)


We've tried a shovel, but this puppy just won't die!


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Darksocks said:


> Thanks for clearing it up on the whether or not they say it is art. :3



Your welcome, even though I think to some I could have made it less unclear.  ;-)



> I should have said Acceptable art instead of whether or not it is art.



Shoulda, coulda, woulda...  matters not to me.  First of all its a discussion forum, if your being civil you shouldn't have to choose your words so carefully that you feel like your walking on thin ice that could crash through at any moment, or broken glass that makes the effort so excruciating that its painful to contribute a part to it.

Second of all, I greatly appreciate your contribution to the discussion so far.

And third of all, it does sound better when put as "Acceptable Art" instead of saying whether or not it is art.

In fact, that could probably be said in order to sum things up as peacefully as possible.

TGen renders, in and of themselves, or as the main theme of a submission, fall under the generator content clauses of the AUP, and thereby are not Acceptable Art to be hosted on FA.

Hmmmm....  I wonder how that would sit with Sammy?



> I'm glad we are basically on the same page.



Me too.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> We've tried a shovel, but this puppy just won't die!



Trying to get your word in as the last one, is hardly hammering at a puppy with a shovel, in attempts to get it to die.

Likewise, pouring fuel on the fire while screaming, GO OUT D*MN IT / I DONT LIKE YOU, is hardly trying to cool it down.

Is it?

If its a violation of some policy that I missed to keep up the conversation here within the context of where its legitimately gone...  (Discussions can still be legitimate to the original reason the thread was opened, even if they go off a little bit.)  ...  Without anyone trying to derail it or spam it, lets say with...  "ZOMG EWWW I DONT LIKE YOU PEOPLE TALKING, *S T O P ! ! !*, with or without pictorial anti drama statements or "IN BEFORE CLOSER"...  Like I mentioned before, report it, or just kindly ask staff why the thread hasn't been closed yet.

What purpose does it serve this discussion to BAWWWW about this being an ongoing conversation?  Is someone forcing you to contribute against your will?

Help some of us out, cause it doesn't really make sense to me, that is of course if you can do it without derailing the thread.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> (Ack, to think that this thread was only on page five when I hit the hay . . . and I only got 3-4 hours of sleep, too.)



Ya know Flo on the Progressive commercials?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtkc7W1kNUM

:-o SURPRISE!!! :-o


----------



## dmfalk (Aug 27, 2008)

CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> ...y
> 
> you.


Yes?


> In no way am I going to defend techno music. Personally, it is a genre that I cannot stand, and a label that I _loathe_. On the same note, I do not like FruityLoops. BUT, FruityLoops is *not* music-generating software. Each note is entered by the user, and everything is hand-sequenced. Chances are, what you're hearing out of it is purely just unoriginality, and a lot of it.
> 
> FruityLoops has no place in this thread. Try Apple Garageband. It's not quite there either, but with its vast collection of stock loops, it's a hell of a lot closer.



Hello, FruityLoops is so named because of, guess what- It uses LOOPS! And it has as much relevance based on what constitutes a "generator", and how much user-level creativity is involved- REGARDLESS of whether or not you like the genre. That part is irrelevant.

d.m.f.
(who prefers abstract ambient and classic rock & roll....but that's irrelevant, too.)


----------



## CHICAGOÂ¤lollie (Aug 27, 2008)

dmfalk said:


> Hello, FruityLoops is so named because of, guess what- It uses LOOPS! And it has as much relevance based on what constitutes a "generator", and how much user-level creativity is involved- REGARDLESS of whether or not you like the genre. That part is irrelevant.


...yeah, see, I don't mean to knock you down, but I don't think you quite get why Terragen is being hounded on. I'm also led to believe that you've never actually _used_ FruityLoops before, or even looked into what it can and cannot do.

Terragen takes a couple of sliders, some pre-programmed randomization, and a generate button to create imagery. Little to no effort is required.
FruityLoops doesn't have any randomization capabilities for automatically generating a song. Even at a minimum, some effort is required.






anonymousfurry said:


> What purpose does it serve this discussion to BAWWWW about this being an ongoing conversation?  Is someone forcing you to contribute against your will?



Pft, _no_. Silly anonymousfurry, I'm just somewhat surprised that this thread hasn't been closed off yet. Everything that needs to be said HAS been said, and- Really, not a whole lot needed to be said in the first place.

I'll be perfectly honest. I've been sitting around hoping that there's a mod out there looking over this thread, thinking "Golly, this thread sure should be closed off." But, that hasn't happened yet, so y'know what? You're right. Less hoping, more acting!


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> Stop.
> 
> Download Terragen.
> 
> Use it.



Right On!

Its free...  SO WHY NOT!?!?

We got a tutorial here from an experienced TGen user...

Now all we need is links...

AnonF provides:

Those who like Bill or are forced to use his products:
http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/download.php?item=winfull

Those who worship Steve and what some think is the original Forbidden Fruit:
http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/download.php?item=macfull

Here's the official users guide, although you really wont need it, everything about TGen is fairly strait forward and you can learn pretty much all of what can and can not be done with it in maybe about oh...  a work day of playing with it.

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/guide/



> Give us a report on the amount of effort you had to put in to create something in it.



Yeah...  Infact...  Just spark it up, tell it to render some random terrain, and click the render button.  Tell us the major difference between what you get then, from what you get if you play with it for an hour, and then later on down the road, tell us the major difference there is in what it renders for you, when your an "expert" on it.

I don't know about what makes a person an "expert" in TGen, but I've been using it off and on, sometimes for months at a time (no not non stop silly!) for going on a decade now, and I still cant bring myself to think of it as anymore than being an awesome terrain generator.



> There is VERY MINIMAL effort required. The most you've got in terms of modeling is raising and lowering parts of land. But honestly, _that is it_. There's no vertices to move into place, and you're not working with NURBS. It's simply click to make this section higher or lower.



True that, two weeks ago the staff didn't know that it wasn't an actual 3D modeler, and that the sculpting capabilities where so rudimentary that it almost makes that feature useless.  Once they realized the ins and outs of the application though, they called it for what it is.



> Also, from memory, renders with Poser are actually also not allowed on FA either, _unless_ the models were created by yourself.



Don't have to go by memory...  We've covered that already.

But your right.





> 3DSMax is _not_ a generator. There's a shittonne of things in it that require actual learning and patience to be able to create something half decent. You can't just tell it to make a head and let it do the rest, no. You get a cube, and you cut that cube in a billion ways and mold every vertex into shape until it _resembles_ a face.



Yeah, trust me, I dont know why some people dont know the difference here, but this came from someone who seems to be illinformed about the matter.

I mean, "MAX is the only other thing you can do that stuff with, and it costs so much no one can even play with it"...  WHAT!?







> ...y
> 
> you.



*cringes*

How'd I see this coming?




> In no way am I going to defend techno music. Personally, it is a genre that I cannot stand, and a label that I _loathe_. On the same note, I do not like FruityLoops. BUT, FruityLoops is *not* music-generating software. Each note is entered by the user, and everything is hand-sequenced. Chances are, what you're hearing out of it is purely just unoriginality, and a lot of it.
> 
> FruityLoops has no place in this thread. Try Apple Garageband. It's not quite there either, but with its vast collection of stock loops, it's a hell of a lot closer.



PREACH ON...

Hopefully some people will end up being more informed about applications and their uses and what they are and are not.

Hopefully.

I cant think of any right off paw, but aren't there fractal music generators out there?

Or...  Features or plugins within or for the high end or high quality trackers and other music apps that can randomly generate music?

If so, no matter what the application, I'm sure that the end result in and of itself or as the main theme of a submission, would fall outside the scope of being hosted on FA, but if one used a random feature to create, lets say a seamless loop and used it in a composition, it would be more than acceptable.

Once again, it makes sense to me, and I don't really know what the big deal is.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

This is from the "other" thread, * http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?t=26106 * but thought it would work here too...  Especially since it seems like it wouldn't hurt for reiteration here, so long as we keep it in the original thread.  And Chicago Lollie makes a good point here, and further clarification about his other point may help in the discussion here.

;-)




CHICAGOÂ¤lollie said:


> NO.
> STOP.
> 
> 
> ...



Once again...  RIGHT YOU ARE!

Why so many people have to say the same thing over and over again, and now in a different thread...

Beyond me.



> 3DsMax is an ENTIRELY different kind of software to Poser and DAZ, in that you CREATE models and scenes with it. 3DsMax is for modeling and rendering, NOT for automatically generating a chunk of land.



Hmmm...  I've tossed 3DS models, VRML models, Autocad and even converted Armada files, made by other people into MAX and rendered a scene, even made a good grade on a VRML project I was working on about multiple file formats and backwards compatibility.  I don't think uploading that render or something of the sort would work here though, since I was using content not created by myself.



> 3DsMax can't even DO that



It wont?

Ummm...  what?



> oh my godddd. Why do you people just lump everything in togetherrrrr. Head hurtinggggg. >:



Yours?  How do you think I feel?


----------



## Ebon Lupus (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> Hey!?!?  What's a wolf doing knowing that Tuna Casserole tastes good!?!?  ;-)


You should never ask questions like this.


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Ebon Lupus said:


> You should never ask questions like this.



:shock: Maybe you where right Darksocks... :shock:

*pulls himself away from the ever so tempting tuna and runs and hides*

*hisses softly*  The Fish Is A Lie...  BAWWWWWWW


----------



## Armaetus (Aug 27, 2008)

Like others have said, TerraGen has no place on this website. Sammy should just keep his TG renders to DA and not whine about why he can't place them on FA. Knowing his track record, I don't even know why he still is on FA being a hater of various things.

_PS *anonymousfurry*: You do not need to censor every bad word (damn isn't even a curse word, neither is god). I let out the occasional curse but I don't overdo it._


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

mrchris said:


> Like others have said, TerraGen has no place on this website. Sammy should just keep his TG renders to DA and not whine about why he can't place them on FA. Knowing his track record, I don't even know why he still is on FA being a hater of various things.



Yep and YYYEP!  ;-)

I was sorta hoping Sammy's track record as being such a hater (which just seems a waste of good passion in my book) wouldn't effect the discussion here so much.  Devils advocate though, he has kept things fairly civil compared to that track record, hopefully his not being banned from the forum site, yet, means that the higher ups are showing him some latitude there.

And the thread hasn't been closed.

I think he's still on the site because believe or not, unlike some, who have perm bans, he seems to come to his senses at times, and can really be a pretty cool person...

...

So long as he thinks your on his side.  ;-)  *giggles*



> _PS *anonymousfurry*: You do not need to censor every bad word (damn isn't even a curse word, neither is god). I let out the occasional curse but I don't overdo it._



Hey now, I didn't censor _*hisses softly*_ did I?  Thats kitten speak for muttering *"F'in !@#$@#!$!@#$!"* under my breath.



Thanks for trying to make it a little easier on me though.  I wouldn't be so skidish of it, if I didn't think it would open up avenues and opportunities for those out there who are just waiting for a reason to pounce on me and file a valid report.

Trust me, if they'll nitpick at spelling and grammar, and how worded I am, they'll sure try their best to nab me on using "nasty words".

I know, if they cant find any dirt to dig up on me, they'll make it up, but I think its less empowering to them and their methods, just to err on the side of caution.

;-)


----------



## Ansuru (Aug 27, 2008)

If dumping a bunch of clothing from Nazi concentration camps around a gallery can be considered art, I don't think ANYONE has ANY place telling people what media they can and cannot use for art.

Artâ€”from a viewer's perspectiveâ€”isn't about the artist's process; it's about the end result. It is the end result that makes you think about something or evokes an emotional response (good OR bad), the arrangement of elements within the work to affect this response that makes something Art.


I agree that there is little difference between changing settings in Terragen and changing position sliders in a software package such as Poser. Rather than this being considered an indictment of Poser as a failure's fake-art program, people should open their eyes and realize...that's all art ever is! Adjusting settings to affect an end result artistically! 

Just because your paint brush has a more direct effect than a slider doesn't make it any less art...or are you going to tell me that a 3d modeler who designs his creations by entering precise data values into text entry fields in order to control the proportions exactly is also a failure as an artist?


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Ansuru said:


> If dumping [SNIP] is also a failure as an artist?



I think we've covered the matter about this not being about what art is or what art isn't, specific to TGen, and not so specific to it.  ;-)

http://forums.furaffinity.net/showpost.php?p=568398&postcount=95

_"TGen renders, in and of themselves, or as the main theme of a submission, fall under the "generator" content clauses of the AUP, and thereby are not Acceptable_ *Art* _to be hosted on FA."_

I'm sure the rules as they are written really don't open it up to be that kind about it, but we can pretend, while still meaning the same exact thing as the AUP says.


----------



## Rafeal (Aug 27, 2008)

anonymousfurry said:


> I'm sure the rules as they are written really don't open it up to be that kind about it, but we can pretend, while still meaning the same exact thing as the AUP says.



How long did it take us to get there...  7 or 8 pages of ...unneeded yammering???

Dear Lord help us!


----------



## anonymousfurry (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafeal said:


> How long did it take us to get there...  7 or 8 pages of ...unneeded yammering???
> 
> Dear Lord help us!



I'm not saying that you cant call on the Lord when you wish, but I hardly think that 7 or 8 pages of conversation, or 10 to 15 ((I hope (not pray) that it doesn't come to that though)) concerning the matter, deems requesting divine intervention.

LOL

Thats just me though.

If the thread had been closed, people like Ansuru, wouldn't have been able to contribute their valid thoughts on the matter.  When do you think it should have been closed and who would you have rather had not allowed to contribute to the discusion?

Also, it must still have a purpose, especially since Sammy hasn't really had that much more input on stating his case, and Dragoneer or someone speaking on his behalf, hasn't really summed things up, because one thread was closed about the matter, and this one was kept open.

I think, religiously speaking, they commonly teach to follow the hierarchical ladder before seeking help from the Lord...  perhaps he thinks if you really want something done about it, and you know of it being a violation because it spans more pages than you think necessary..  you can report the matter to FA staff.

No one has yet explained what the big deal about the length of the discussion is, or how its so wrong or even a violation that people are hurting themselves and begging divine intervention over it.

Care to clear that up for us, who are wondering?


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## Zipclaw (Aug 27, 2008)

Sorry for intefering here, but I have something to say here since I'm using Terragen for many years now.

1. Terragen is NOT a generator, it's a renderer like Poser, Vue, etc.pp.
2. It doesn't "generate" terrains. Terragen is unable to generator realistic looking terrains. A program like "World Machine" is a generator for such stuff.
3. There is a difference of which version of Terragen is talked about. There is the old 0.9: very simple and easy to use. And there is Terragen 2, which is much more complex. You also can import selfmade objects (several file formats) or textures into a scenery.
4. I remember someone said Terragen is free. This is not true! Yes, there are free versions, but they are VERY limited and it's not allowed to use it for commercial stuff.

If Terragen artworks are not allowed here... then I have to ask a question: I have seen many *screenshots* of games and Second Life being uploaded. Tell me, where is the art in these ones? If I would make a screenshot (using an emulator) of... let's say the famous Turrican on the Commodore 64, in which someone changed the main sprite into a furry... would that be allowed to uploaded here at FA?


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## SammyFox (Aug 27, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> DeviantART's FAQ#502 addresses that 'kits', 'generators', and 'dolls' may only be placed in Scraps, for the very same underlying reasons that FA prohibits them in the first place
> 
> Yet as you point out, deviantART does *not* classify Terragen landscapes and fractals among the generators, and they _do_ have submission galleries that welcome them.
> 
> *That is dA*, Sammy.  FurAffinity's rules are different.



*wakes up*
*yawn*
*reads this*
*phew*


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## SammyFox (Aug 27, 2008)

Haystack said:


> Do you?   Some of the best art is as far from "pretty" as one could possibly get.
> 
> e.g.:  Tom Huck (www.evilprints.com), Albrecht DÃ¼rer, H.R. Giger, Vincent van Gogh, Francisco Goya,  and Hieronymus Bosch.
> 
> No, art is NOT all about The Pretty.  It is about sending messages; you're right there, at least.  Sometimes those messages aren't pretty, either.


I knew this short description alone wouldn't be enough so I made another one on page 2, if my memory doesn't fail me.


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## Rhainor (Aug 27, 2008)

Zipclaw said:


> Sorry for intefering here, but I have something to say here since I'm using Terragen for many years now.
> 
> 1. Terragen is NOT a generator, it's a renderer like Poser, Vue, etc.pp.


Yes, it is a generator.  It's in the name.  Besides, the point here is that it's possible to make something with it by adjusting a few settings ( <2 minutes ) and hitting "go" and letting it do its thing; that does not constitute an appropriate amount of creative effort.



			
				Zipclaw said:
			
		

> If Terragen artworks are not allowed here... then I have to ask a question: I have seen many *screenshots* of games and Second Life being uploaded. Tell me, where is the art in these ones? If I would make a screenshot (using an emulator) of... let's say the famous Turrican on the Commodore 64, in which someone changed the main sprite into a furry... would that be allowed to uploaded here at FA?


Game screenshots are not allowed unless they feature user-created content, which generally means a player model (or avatar, in the case of Second Life) created *from scratch* by the uploading user (or by someone they commissioned to custom-make said model for them).


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