# Ukranian War Discussion Thread



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 26, 2022)

Your one stop for any news you want to share or topics you want to discuss relating to the war in Ukraine


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 26, 2022)

Ghost of Kiev has been confirmed by the ukranian government, the new fighter ace.

Current kill count: 2 Su-35, 2 Su-25, one Su-27 and one MiG-29


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

will add this conversation was going fine in vent as we tried to avoid politics


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Feb 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Ghost of Kiev has been confirmed by the ukranian government, the new fighter ace.
> 
> Current kill count: 2 Su-35, 2 Su-25, one Su-27 and one MiG-29


Hmm..... only the second sentence on the second posting, and already I smell trouble with this topic.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm..... only the second sentence on the second posting, and already I smell trouble with this topic.


why?


----------



## TyraWadman (Feb 26, 2022)

XD Oops!
I just made one of these myself.
The kill count seems unnecessary though.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 26, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm..... only the second sentence on the second posting, and already I smell trouble with this topic.


Hum? I don't understand?


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Feb 26, 2022)

ben909 said:


> why?


A "kill count"? Really.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

its a gov pushed legend

app now it is going bad


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 26, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> A "kill count"? Really.


You need to take out enemy aircraft to become an ace


ben909 said:


> its a gov pushed legend
> 
> app now it is going bad


There was a video that was supposedly of him but was actually faked. The guy is real, though


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 26, 2022)

FORTE11 (a US surveillance drone) continues to patrol the Black Sea after leaving Ukraine shortly after the war's start


----------



## Judge Spear (Feb 26, 2022)

I hope this doesn't seem insensitive, but the dogfighting is badass. Double so that one guy took out six Su-35's. Man's a fucking beast, bro.
Ukraine is *about *the shit.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

Hmmm,  uhmmm, hmmmmm.  Dinner break.
Ukraine is legendary, ngl.  There is sooooo much going on.  It's like a cyber Disneyland.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)




----------



## Judge Spear (Feb 26, 2022)

Russia's stock market went down *40%. *




(I don't mean to laugh at the people of Russia. God bless them. Just laughing at Putin and his friends)


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

Stingers in Afghanistan, Javelins in Ukraine from allied countries.








						Factbox-How Ukraine's armed forces shape up against Russia's
					

Ukraine's armed forces are heavily outnumbered and outgunned by Russia's, but as Russia begins what may be a large-scale invasion, military experts say they would be capable of mounting significant resistance and inflicting heavy casualties.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

bad part is that for a second this reminded me of wargame red dragon were i lost a strong force in a campaign  by blindly sending the high end units into a city by the roads


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

1000 more AT and 500 AA MANPADS coming from Germany.

Really though, hoping everyone is still ok.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

Latest story being pushed: Russian soldiers are confused as everyone looks alike.


----------



## Flamingo (Feb 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> FORTE11 (a US surveillance drone) continues to patrol the Black Sea after leaving Ukraine shortly after the war's start
> View attachment 128198


Pay attention to the sheer number of KC-135's flying to the west and you'll get a better picture of how many aircraft we probably really have up.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

good point... although those are probably for the nato reaction force, not for helping Ukraine


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 26, 2022)

Russian vodka also not being sold in stores anymore.


----------



## Foxridley (Feb 26, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Russian vodka also not being sold in stores anymore.


Glad I'm partial to Ketel One


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

Kc-10 and Kc-135.  The KC-10 is loitering outside Ukraine airspace.  A NATO E3 was in the area as well.

Russian victory:


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

other question none of us can truely answer 

do you think putin belives his public justifications for this war, or is he just lieing with a script to fit an agenda


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 26, 2022)

ben909 said:


> other question none of us can truely answer
> 
> do you think putin belives his public justifications for this war, or is he just lieing with a script to fit an agenda


He's just a demented old man who thinks Ukraine and NATO are nazis.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

We can answer that.

It's a script.  That's why he was wearing the same suit, sitting in the same chair, and had himself organized the same way as when he held the UN conference.
Edit: 








						Putin announced attacks against Ukraine on Thursday in the same suit he wore for his Monday speech, prompting speculation that his war declaration was pretaped
					

In videos that aired on Monday and Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin appeared to wear the same black blazer, white shirt, and maroon tie.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Green_Brick (Feb 26, 2022)

I pray for those in Ukraine, and I hope that they are safe! 
Man... what a time to be alive...


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

agreed


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 26, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Russian vodka also not being sold in stores anymore.


I prefer Scandinavian so that I can do Viking impersonations.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

This is like a repeat of when I was 12 and the USSR collapsed


----------



## Foxridley (Feb 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> We can answer that.
> 
> It's a script.  That's why he was wearing the same suit, sitting in the same chair, and had himself organized the same way as when he held the UN conference.
> Edit:
> ...


Now I picture Putin having a closet full of bunches of the same suit like a cartoon character.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> Now I picture Putin having a closet full of bunches of the same suit like a cartoon character.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 26, 2022)

Remember him?


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 26, 2022)

Speaking of Putins wardrobe you reckon he has a collection of Soviet uniforms and Stalin mustaches so he can do roleplay when no one is looking?


----------



## ben909 (Feb 26, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Speaking of Putins wardrobe you reckon he has a collection of Soviet uniforms and Stalin mustaches so he can do roleplay when no one is looking?


he does want to be a soviet


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 26, 2022)

ben909 said:


> he does want to be a soviet


It seems that the Simpsons predicted the future once again:


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

I just think of this when Putin comes up


----------



## Smityyyy (Feb 26, 2022)

Putin is a liar. This is just another example of an imperialist superpower dick-swinging. Russia is a fascist dictatorship and I feel awful for all the innocent citizens who will suffer as a result of Putin’s actions. 

I wish only the best for the Ukrainians defending their land and families.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 26, 2022)

This furry comic from the 80s has some familiar colors on it. Go Ukraine!


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Feb 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> We can answer that.
> 
> It's a script.  That's why he was wearing the same suit, sitting in the same chair, and had himself organized the same way as when he held the UN conference.
> Edit:
> ...


Isn't Putin ex-KGB?  I was under the impression that kind of work requires a lot of lying (they call it "cover stories" and the like) and he was supposedly in it for over a decade.

Plenty of room to believe one's own lies after a while, or to have them resurface 30 years later.  That kind of work changes a person, and not exactly for the best.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 26, 2022)

As I understand it, Putin anticipated Ukraine falling within the first few days. Of course, how it played out was the Ukrainians putting up some pretty fierce resistance. I have to imagine the supply lines for a Russian army in enemy territory are critically vulnerable. Especially so if what is being said about Putin expecting the pace to be so quick is true. He'll be bogged down in the Ukraine for some time with far less supplies than is needed. The armchair general in me wonders if the best move is to throttle the Russian supply lines.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 26, 2022)

Also, the Ukrainian president is a legit badass









						Zelensky refuses US offer to evacuate, saying 'I need ammunition, not a ride' | CNN
					

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has turned down an offer from the United States of evacuation from the capital city Kyiv, the Ukraine embassy in Britain said Saturday on Twitter.




					www.cnn.com
				




"I need ammunition, not a ride"

Literally holding down the fort till the end with his troops. Chad Zelensky vs virgin Putin.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 26, 2022)

Exactly.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Isn't Putin ex-KGB?  I was under the impression that kind of work requires a lot of lying (they call it "cover stories" and the like) and he was supposedly in it for over a decade.
> 
> Plenty of room to believe one's own lies after a while, or to have them resurface 30 years later.  That kind of work changes a person, and not exactly for the best.


Yes, he is ex-KGB, probaby some Spetsnaz training as well, due to his swinging only one arm, breathing (exercised), measured steps, and eye movement.  Seriously, once you see it, you can't un-see it.


KimberVaile said:


> As I understand it, Putin anticipated Ukraine falling within the first few days. Of course, how it played out was the Ukrainians putting up some pretty fierce resistance. I have to imagine the supply lines for a Russian army in enemy territory are critically vulnerable. Especially so if what is being said about Putin expecting the pace to be so quick is true. He'll be bogged down in the Ukraine for some time with far less supplies than is needed. The armchair general in me wonders if the best move is to throttle the Russian supply lines.


It's the Soviet in him.  The tactics are the same as in Afghanistan.  The thermobaric deployment is the same as well, but could be more devastating in a city than open area like Afghanistan.
He's also become like Hitler, in the fact he believes himself superior to his generals. I imagine something akin to Operation Valkyrie worries him as well, which is why he is physically distancing himself from them in meetings.
Edit: someone said it's like 15m or 20 yards.  He's legitimately scared of a coup right now.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

The biggest problem America has is two-fold: ex-President Bonespurs and co-conspirators supporting Russia and a serious lack of Mountain Dew and Doritos for cybergroups


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 26, 2022)

I think most of y'all saw this but just in case.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 26, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> I think most of y'all saw this but just in case.


Heh heh heh. Good for them!  
Russia is right now literally fighting the planet.


----------



## Kellan Meig'h (Feb 27, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Russian vodka also not being sold in stores anymore.


RTFL (read the fukkin label) - Stolichnaya is made in Rigo, Latvia. A NATO member. Yes, it is owned by some Russian Billionaire but I'm sure he's not supporting the invasion, since no doubt his Russian stocks have tanked and he has limited or no access to his money by now.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Feb 27, 2022)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> RTFL (read the fukkin label) - Stolichnaya is made in Rigo, Latvia. A NATO member. Yes, it is owned by some Russian Billionaire but I'm sure he's not supporting the invasion, since no doubt his Russian stocks have tanked and he has limited or no access to his money by now.


Tell that to bar owners across America who actually pulled Stoli from the shelves.

Tell the same to the people who dumped their Smirnoff vodka, at minimum.


Incidentally, Vektor Vodka doesn't seem to have a stock ticker symbol, otherwise I'd invest in it right now.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

As far as a I can make out for the reasoning of the invasion. Putin seems to fear more nations near Russia joining NATO? At least that is what he professes, that he doesn't want Ukraine, Sweden, Norway or other nearby nations joining NATO. I get the impression he finds it a security risk, or so it might seem. I think a part of it might just be a yearning for the days of the Soviet Union, wanting to restore some of the old territory of the Union. That or it might just be the fear of having a pro western leaning democracy right next door which I imagine might make Putin a bit anxious.
Likely it's a combination of some of those factors, but that's just my best guess. I can imagine Putin worries that average Russians are easily seeing through the facade of Russia having a functioning democracy.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 27, 2022)

Btw for anyone who wants it, here's r/NCD. Track war events via pro-ukraine, anti-russian shitposting.  








						r/NonCredibleDefense
					

r/NonCredibleDefense: Reddit's new home for defense themed shitposts




					www.reddit.com


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Well, give this to the man:
He knows how to make them want to join NATO now.
Helluva gamble, too.  Every tank, aircraft, helicopter etc destroyed or person killed is weakening his hand and position as he has to replace them.


Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Tell that to bar owners across America who actually pulled Stoli from the shelves.


As an American I am ashamed we are 13th in world education and 30th in social studies.








						Here's Where Americans Think Ukraine Is
					

Many Americans have no idea where Ukraine is located on a world map.




					www.businessinsider.com
				



my hat is off to the twat who said St Louis, Missouri.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Oh my god, that was 2014.  Bring it to 2022 and we should be....








						34% of Americans Can Find Ukraine on a Map
					

Voters who can identify Ukraine on a map are more likely to back stronger policy responses against Russia, according to a new Morning Consult poll.




					morningconsult.com
				



No, f*** this.  F*** the education system, just burn it all down. 

Good news is people who know where it is are deeply supportive of it apparently because education works.  Thank god military people can find it because otherwise we would attack Aquaman


----------



## The-Courier (Feb 27, 2022)

I think the people who chose random places in the US are either taking the piss or want the survey to be done and over with quickly so they can get back to what they were doing and not caring about where Ukraine actually is.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

The-Courier said:


> I think the people who chose random places in the US are either taking the piss or want the survey to be done and over with quickly so they can get back to what they were doing and not caring about where Ukraine actually is.


Lmao, yes, but the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and Antarctica?  Cthulu?

Just keep being there Ukraine.


----------



## ConorHyena (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> As far as a I can make out for the reasoning of the invasion. Putin seems to fear more nations near Russia joining NATO? At least that is what he professes, that he doesn't want Ukraine, Sweden, Norway or other nearby nations joining NATO. I get the impression he finds it a security risk, or so it might seem. I think a part of it might just be a yearning for the days of the Soviet Union, wanting to restore some of the old territory of the Union. That or it might just be the fear of having a pro western leaning democracy right next door which I imagine might make Putin a bit anxious.
> Likely it's a combination of some of those factors, but that's just my best guess. I can imagine Putin worries that average Russians are easily seeing through the facade of Russia having a functioning democracy.



Norway is part of NATO, it'd be sweden and finland that would be of concern to him. Given that how poorly he is performing (he's managed to lose more material and troops in 3 days than the americans have lost in 20 years of afghanistan) I can see how he feels threatened by NATO now.


----------



## Simo (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> As far as a I can make out for the reasoning of the invasion. Putin seems to fear more nations near Russia joining NATO? At least that is what he professes, that he doesn't want Ukraine, Sweden, Norway or other nearby nations joining NATO. I get the impression he finds it a security risk, or so it might seem. I think a part of it might just be a yearning for the days of the Soviet Union, wanting to restore some of the old territory of the Union. That or it might just be the fear of having a pro western leaning democracy right next door which I imagine might make Putin a bit anxious.
> Likely it's a combination of some of those factors, but that's just my best guess. I can imagine Putin worries that average Russians are easily seeing through the facade of Russia having a functioning democracy.


 The irony is that the invasion is making it more likely countries like Sweden and Finland will join NATO. And he certainly seem to be missing the days of the USSR. 

It makes me recall this anecdote & Putin's 15 years in the Soviet spy agency:

George W. Bush famously said after meeting Putin, that when he looked in his eyes, he saw the soul of that man. Later, after meeting Putin, John McCain remarked, "When I looked into Putin's eyes, I saw three letters: A 'K', a 'G', and a 'B'."

~~~

Also, it must feel very odd to have that long border with Russia, that Finland does. 

(Imagine looking over the fence, and seeing Putin's beady little eyes, peeping over!)


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Norway is part of NATO, it'd be sweden and finland that would be of concern to him. Given that how poorly he is performing (he's managed to lose more material and troops in 3 days than the americans have lost in 20 years of afghanistan) I can see how he feels threatened by NATO now.


Yup, got it backwards, Norway was a member and it's Finland that hasn't entered yet.

If I'm not mistaken, Russia was overconfident and was expecting to easily overwhelm the Ukraine, and wanted to rely on sowing panic and demoralizing the defenders as their main strategy. If the Ukrainians can hold off the Russians long enough, the following months are going to followed by more painful losses for the Russians just merely due to the lack of supplies. The Russians have more advanced planes, tanks and weaponry but rather foolishly didn't pack the supplies for a protracted conflict. And because of that their only option is to try and stick to plan of trying to quickly overwhelm Ukraine, they will only continue to accrue great losses due to having so few supplies and having to 'beat the clock'. There have been many stories already about some tank crews being halted due to lack of fuel.

A lot of this failure is entirely due to poor planning and execution, I think.

For all credit Putin seems to give himself for being a strategic mastermind, it was pretty myopic to not build up his stock of military supplies.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Simo said:


> The irony is that the invasion is making it more likely countries like Sweden and Finland will join NATO. And he certainly seem to be missing the days of the USSR.
> 
> It makes me recall this anecdote & Putin's 15 years in the Soviet spy agency:
> 
> ...


I think so, yeah. It'd be scary! Sharing a border with a country headed by a guy like that.
I never got why Putin ever got any praise in the west, the dude was always a vulturey creep. I mean, he supposedly is a president, but he's been in power for like, 20 years and has frequently abused his power to beat protesters and most of his critics. I mean, just on the basest level, Putin seems like a very thin skinned sort.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Feb 27, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> he's managed to lose more material and troops in 3 days than the americans have lost in 20 years of afghanistan


Counting or not counting the abject failure of the current administration last September?


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Oh my god, that was 2014.  Bring it to 2022 and we should be....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I was following up on the geography thing in the vent thread, taking a guess at where I would have made the mistake of pinning Ukraine, when I came across a tidbit that I thought fit better here.

I was originally going to say I might have made the mistake of pinning it near Finland, thinking of an incident with "breadbaskets" and "cocktails" there in the 1930s and early 1940s... and apparently I'm seeing some stories that the Ukrainian defense ministry was asking citizens to make those "cocktails" in case the Russians get too close?  To the point of _tweeting instructions_?

Can someone verify if this is serious?

(Please don't actually share the tweet if it's real, it'd probably fall afoul of several of our Code of Conduct rules.  And yes, I'm leaving out a tiny little detail of what type of cocktails these are.)


----------



## Flamingo (Feb 27, 2022)

It is true.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 27, 2022)

The-Courier said:


> I think the people who chose random places in the US are either taking the piss or want the survey to be done and over with quickly so they can get back to what they were doing and not caring about where Ukraine actually is.


possibly also clicking the wrong button, poking the screen to move the map but it though it was a selection


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Feb 27, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> You need to take out enemy aircraft to become an ace


Well, I suppose it could be argued that's true..... but do we need to read about it on a fandom board? Hmmmm.  Anyways, the floodgates are open now. ☺ Have fun.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Feb 27, 2022)

First of all I like to say that I don't have a Problem with Russia or the Russian people. But Putin isn't Russia. I preached since 15 years that this man may be the greatest threat for world peace since the end of WW2. Putin was behind most of the shit that happend in the world since the 90ths. But still his aggression got downplayed by people and politicans. Some people even praised him as a luminous figure and savior of christian conservative values. But now he has shown his true colours, the colours of a dictator and war criminal he always was. A few ours ago he even announce that russia mobilized his nuclear forces. And it's verry possible that we're just at the start of an escalation getting far worse.

In these hours my heart and best whishes are with the brave people of the Ukraine. And also the righteous protesters in russia which also despise this pointless agression that Putin brought over us all. Keep heart and keep hope.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Heh heh heh. Good for them!
> Russia is right now literally fighting the planet.


Putin*


----------



## ben909 (Feb 27, 2022)

yea it is probably important to note this is putins war, putins aggression and putins war, not truely all of Russia's even if the arrest of protesters means russia will be forced to follow putin even if they don't want to


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

From what I've heard, Ghost of Kyiv keeps going: 9-10 planes on his kill count now. Russian pilot must fear him.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Street fight in Kharkiv:


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 27, 2022)

@Firuthi Dragovic

Here is a reliable news story about civilians producing Molotov Cocktails in Ukrainian cities.








						The Ukrainian women hand-making Molotov cocktails
					

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford visits Dnipro, where women are making Molotov cocktails to defend the city.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				





I am really not sure what to think of this thread more widely. This is an avoidable humanitarian disaster above all else. When memes are being posted I think this maybe does not reflect that gravity.
I am not sure the possibility of unverified social media content about war being shared is going to be a good thing.



KimberVaile said:


> As far as a I can make out for the reasoning of the invasion. Putin seems to fear more nations near Russia joining NATO? At least that is what he professes, that he doesn't want Ukraine, Sweden, Norway or other nearby nations joining NATO. I get the impression he finds it a security risk, or so it might seem. I think a part of it might just be a yearning for the days of the Soviet Union, wanting to restore some of the old territory of the Union. That or it might just be the fear of having a pro western leaning democracy right next door which I imagine might make Putin a bit anxious.
> Likely it's a combination of some of those factors, but that's just my best guess. I can imagine Putin worries that average Russians are easily seeing through the facade of Russia having a functioning democracy.



Norway was a founding member of NATO. You are thinking of Finland.

edit: @ConorHyena noticed this before me. Thankyou conor.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> @Firuthi Dragovic
> 
> Here is a reliable news story about civilians producing Molotov Cocktails in Ukrainian cities.
> 
> ...


I am aware, Conor already corrected me on it.


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I am aware, Conor already corrected me on it.


I just noticed, thank you for pointing this out.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> So I was following up on the geography thing in the vent thread, taking a guess at where I would have made the mistake of pinning Ukraine, when I came across a tidbit that I thought fit better here.
> 
> I was originally going to say I might have made the mistake of pinning it near Finland, thinking of an incident with "breadbaskets" and "cocktails" there in the 1930s and early 1940s... and apparently I'm seeing some stories that the Ukrainian defense ministry was asking citizens to make those "cocktails" in case the Russians get too close?  To the point of _tweeting instructions_?
> 
> ...


Cookbooks and recipes for homemade explosives (James Bond Cookbook) is supposedly being broadcast and printed.
LoRaN (GPS alternative) is useless. The closest is in Crimea, so it is likely spoofed.  I like how the Ukrainian road works changed road signs to  "Go F***  Yourself".  This iis what Democracy and Freedom looks like. 

Putin just put his nuclear forces on high alert, but his military looks inept as s*** on the world stage.  I mean you have to take the threat seriously, but still, this is some serious weakness.


Ringo the Wolf said:


> Putin*


I see your point, but he is being backed up by others?


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Feb 27, 2022)

I'm just glad that my government came to it's sense. Germany agreed to contribute some anti tank weapons and they also dropped their blockage of the sift sanctions. There was an emergency meeting of the Bundestag today. And I rarely have seen such brought consentaneousness across all politiac parties and factions. Putin's war managed to unite people that never got it together before.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Cookbooks and recipes for homemade explosives (James Bond Cookbook) is supposedly being broadcast and printed.
> LoRaN (GPS alternative) is useless. The closest is in Crimea, so it is likely spoofed.  I like how the Ukrainian road works changed road signs to  "Go F***  Yourself".  This iis what Democracy and Freedom looks like.
> 
> Putin just put his nuclear forces on high alert, but his military looks inept as s*** on the world stage.  I mean you have to take the threat seriously, but still, this is some serious weakness.
> ...



Yeah, he remarked that the nuclear detterance forces being put on high alert was in response to Leading Nato countries 'increasingly aggressive rhetoric.' Likely sabre rattling but knowing that he ended up invading the Ukraine. Well, a bit worrying that he really does want to take people down with him.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I see your point, but he is being backed up by others?


Those are being used by him, obviously. Maybe even brainwashed, like some that thinks this war is right. Hopefully those go to hell with Putin.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Interesting. So a few dozen soldiers surrendered near Kharkiv and mentioned things that aren't too surprising but interesting nonetheless. They mention low morale, not understanding mission/objective orders and being pretty low on fuel. Invasion seem to be subject to some pretty aggressively bad planning for something that was set up for months.









						Live updates: Russia invades Ukraine
					

A battle is underway for control of Ukraine's capital, Kyiv. The US has warned Russia is seeking to encircle the city, and a Ukrainian official said it has been hit by missiles. Follow here for live news updates from the ground in Ukraine.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Yeah, he remarked that the nuclear detterance forces being put on high alert was in response to Leading Nato countries 'increasingly aggressive rhetoric.' Likely sabre rattling but knowing that he ended up invading the Ukraine. Well, a bit worrying that he really does want to take people down with him.



May be it saber rattling. But on the other side no one knows what this madman will do when his invasion of the Ukraine fails. Would he really be so insane to nuke Kyiv to take them out. And then there's also the troops near Tschernobyl with some repots talking of a 20 fold increase in radiation since the start of the fighting. I really hope they don't try to sabotage the sarcophagus in a scorched-earth policy.


----------



## TR273 (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Interesting. So a few dozen soldiers surrendered near Kharkiv and mentioned things that aren't too surprising but interesting nonetheless. They mention low morale, not understanding mission/objective orders and being pretty low on fuel. Invasion seem to be subject to some pretty aggressively bad planning for something that was set up for months.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps he thought the whole 'Ask them to roll over and surrender' thing would actually work.
Despite plenty of evidence from history that all that plan tends to result in is a metric ton of incoming murder hornets and defiant shouts for the invading force to go practice safe sex by f**king themselves.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> May be it saber rattling. But on the other side no one knows what this madman will do when his invasion of the Ukraine fails. Would he really be so insane to nuke Kyiv to take them out. And then there's also the troops near Tschernobyl with some repots talking of a 20 fold increase in radiation since the start of the fighting. I really hope they don't try to sabotage the sarcophagus in a scorched-earth policy.


It's mostly heavy equipment churning the earth.  With a geiger counter, the soldiers defending the place likely saw it as safe with areas they can traverse.  Once the heavy equipment rolled in, well, slow death by radiation poisoning is not a way to go.  But hey, even the environment is fighting them.

I'm going to also say yes, I hope they are smarter than that, but some chuckleheads have likely tried photographing the elephants foot so not holding hope.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 27, 2022)




----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

TR273 said:


> Perhaps he thought the whole 'Ask them to roll over and surrender' thing would actually work.
> Despite plenty of evidence from history that all that plan tends to result in is a metric ton of incoming murder hornets and defiant shouts for the invading force to go practice safe sex by f**king themselves.


If there is anything that is impressive during this whole debacle, it is the resilience and resolve of the Ukrainian people. Russia by all accounts is a super power, yet in most encounters, Ukraine is managing to not just repel Russia, but really make them bleed. Inflicting those kinds of losses in a situation like that is nothing short of remarkable. I also love the juxtaposition of Ukraine's president fighting in the streets with the troops and refusing evacuation, where as big bad KGB Putin is likely holed up in some bunker, terrified of being assassinated.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

World's largest cargo aircraft was destroyed during a Russian attack on an airfield, Ukrainian minister says
					

Multiple sources claimed that the AN-225 Mriya had been targeted while it was sitting in a hangar at the Antonov Airfield.




					www.yahoo.com
				



Russian forces have now attacked and defeated a museum.
Tomorrow, a library card.
We're supposed to be afraid of this?


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 27, 2022)

Putin has also put his nuclear forces on high alert. A move I predicted.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

European Union to Ban Russia Today and Sputnik, Close Airspace as President Putin Threatens Nuclear Action
					

The European Union will ban Russian media outlets Russia Today and Sputnik, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said on Sunday. Saying that the EU will ban “Kremlin’s media machine,” von der Leyen added that “state-owned Russia Today and Sputnik, as well as their subsidiaries...




					www.yahoo.com
				




EU is responding by sending weapons to Ukraine.

France to Putin he's not the only one with nuclear weapons as well.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 27, 2022)

good, it will take advantage of the "timeout we need to refuel" talks the russians are trying to pull


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Putin is now being seen as at a point of no return. 

Being all in on Ukraine and facing resistance, a retreat would severely impact his credibility at home.  If he does take Ukraine, his naval forces have to contend with Turkey to get back out.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Hopefully our Ukranian friends are still ok and all right.  

my kids - i can't figure this out.  My kids are watching all this.  We're definitely a military family.  My dad said we shouldn't be this involved and My mom noted I am retired so this doesn’t concern us.

My son told them they could f off and go home any time.

*wiping tears*  mommy's little monster


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

When a country is telling it's citizens to make molotov cocktails to use agaisnt an enemy invasion, they ain't winning or holding their grounds by any means....

But we might have some hope here, Ukraine has requested peace talks with Russia at the Belarus border.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> When a country is telling it's citizens to make molotov cocktails to use agaisnt an enemy invasion, they ain't winning or holding their grounds by any means....
> 
> But we might have some hope here, Ukraine has requested peace talks with Russia at the Belarus border.


Any man power is needed, basically. It's not about that we're loosing, we're fucking them hard, believe me or not.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> When a country is telling it's citizens to make molotov cocktails to use agaisnt an enemy invasion, they ain't winning or holding their grounds by any means....
> 
> But we might have some hope here, Ukraine has requested peace talks with Russia at the Belarus border.


True, but the US is like a herd of cats.  Hopefully this reminds some of us what it means to be free and independent.
Our real problem and issue to being truly behind Ukraine and really getting involved is our former president, conspiracy theorists, and our politicians who f'd Ukraine in the first place by voting to uphold said ex wanker's idea.  The same ones that noww say they are with Ukraine while having voted against it


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> When a country is telling it's citizens to make molotov cocktails to use agaisnt an enemy invasion, they ain't winning or holding their grounds by any means....
> 
> But we might have some hope here, Ukraine has requested peace talks with Russia at the Belarus border.


A part of me wonders if he's trying to prepare Ukrainians for a guerilla campaign early on because he feels a couple Ukrainians cities may fall eventually. I'm obviously not in his head, so, I don't know. But I assume he's trying to prepare citizens for war early because he expects the primary military force will become a guerilla resistance at some point (I would be surprised if Ukrainians stopped resisting if their professional military was completely defeated). Eithier that or he sees guerilla warfare as a fallback option maybe. It's my guess of course, not a understanding of his intent. It's something I would have done in his situation though, having some fallback option if the tradtional military force falls. At the end of the day, Russia still has to hold the territory if they win it, which has it's own challenges.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> A part of me wonders if he's trying to prepare Ukrainians for a guerilla campaign early on because he feels a couple Ukrainians cities may fall eventually. I'm obviously not in his head, so, I don't know. But I assume he's trying to prepare citizens for war early because he expects the primary military force will become a guerilla resistance at some point (I would be surprised if Ukrainians stopped resisting if their professional military was completely defeated). It's my guess of course, not a understanding of his intent. It's something I would have done in his situation though. At the end of the day, Russia still has to hold the territory if they win it, which has it's own challenges.


Yes.  Or, you know, just let the taxi drivers capture the soldiers then hurriedlly bring some gas cans and get a new tank...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497485623225200640
One time we used to fear this army.  I mean could you imagine firing a nuclear missile and then a Russian general going, "How much fuel was in it?" As it falls back on Russia


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Feb 27, 2022)

Pretty nice coverage


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

They are so stupid and green, a taxi driver came up to them unchallenged, assessed their situtation, they contemplated a ride away from their tank, and this is continual?  And the taxi driver just drove away laughing to report this on social media?!

Their allies have got to be wondering why they are allied with them at this point.

I want to fight...


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> A part of me wonders if he's trying to prepare Ukrainians for a guerilla campaign early on because he feels a couple Ukrainians cities may fall eventually. I'm obviously not in his head, so, I don't know. But I assume he's trying to prepare citizens for war early because he expects the primary military force will become a guerilla resistance at some point (I would be surprised if Ukrainians stopped resisting if their professional military was completely defeated). Eithier that or he sees guerilla warfare as a fallback option maybe. It's my guess of course, not a understanding of his intent. It's something I would have done in his situation though, having some fallback option if the tradtional military force falls. At the end of the day, Russia still has to hold the territory if they win it, which has it's own challenges.




I've heard conflicting reports on both sides on how this is actually playing out, but at the end of the day no one here has any clue on what conditions exists on the ground, fog of war and all that misdirection that comes with it on both sides.

I doubt Russia wants to be an occupying force for the long term (remember they had their own Afganistan sandbox fun times).
They're More then likely looking for a regime change for a Russian friendly installed leader to have another Belarus 2.0 to be a buffer agaisnt NATO.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Yes.  Or, you know, just let the taxi drivers capture the soldiers then hurriedlly bring some gas cans and get a new tank...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497485623225200640
> One time we used to fear this army.  I mean could you imagine firing a nuclear missile and then a Russian general going, "How much fuel was in it?" As it falls back on Russia


Lol, that's probably the most bizarre thing to me, the supplies and logistics for the invasion were nothing short of embarrassing.  To the point where the entire army is under threat just from their shitty supply lines. Like, I get armchair generals think logistics and supply lines aren't as exciting but this is a case and point on why logistics are king in modern warfare. I don't think anything is going to change how embarrassingly ineffectual the Russians have been at this point despite their overwhelming personnel and material advantage.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> I've heard conflicting reports on both sides on how this is actually playing out, but at the end of the day no one here has any clue on what conditions exists on the ground, fog of war and all that misdirection that comes with it on both sides.
> 
> I doubt Russia wants to be an occupying force for the long term (remember they had their own Afganistan sandbox fun times).
> They're More then likely looking for a regime change for a Russian friendly installed leader to have another Belarus 2.0 to be a buffer agaisnt NATO.


Some of the stuff has some kernel of truth to them, like I have seen enough videos of Russian Tank Crews being stranded on the road due to lack of fuel, so there is probably some amount of truth to the supply issues. Some leaked reports do also imply that Putin thought this would be a one and done deal within 3 days. Which reinforces the supply issue. The casualty figures comparatively are much harder to really get the truth of imo. I'd have to agree it's pretty tough to make that out right now. The material losses are a little easier to verify, mostly cause you can physically count all the downed vehicles. Though it's not entirely foolproof either.

It's hard to know with Putin, I think. He says one thing, does another. I don't know enough to really say how effective a puppet ruler would be there, I feel like the biggest error here was that Putin's invasion united Ukraine as a nation. The threat kind of brought everybody together. So, I feel like it'd be hard to keep a puppet ruler in power just cause of how incensed everybody is there without long term military commitments. Of course, I can't predict the future. So it could work just as well, but it'd be a bloody slog regardless I think.


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> True, but the US is like a herd of cats.  Hopefully this reminds some of us what it means to be free and independent.
> Our real problem and issue to being truly behind Ukraine and really getting involved is our former president, conspiracy theorists, and our politicians who f'd Ukraine in the first place by voting to uphold said ex wanker's idea.  The same ones that noww say they are with Ukraine while having voted against it



The buck stops at the current administration in power to what is happening right now...

Honestly you'd think the US would have learned some lessons during the Cuban missile crisis.
But at last nothing changes unfortunately....
until it has to.....


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

War and economy is with Congress and Congress only.

Executive branch has USMC (War Powers have changed, so not quite sure) and diplomacy (and nuclear codes) and information.

We aren't going in because of Congress, specifically the Senate.  But still, it is an effective strategy.  It's Afghanistan 2.0 in that we collapse them with economics and a proxy.


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> It's hard to know with Putin, I think. He says one thing, does another. I don't know enough to really say how effective a puppet ruler would be there, I feel like the biggest error here was that Putin's invasion united Ukraine as a nation. The threat kind of brought everybody together. So, I feel like it'd be hard to keep a puppet ruler in power just cause of how incensed everybody is there without long term military commitments. Of course, I can't predict the future. So it could work just as well, but it'd be a bloody slog regardless I think.



I actually agree with you on this point, didn't think for a second he would be crazy enough to do a whole country blitz style invasion.

Worst case I saw him rolling into Donbas to end the civil conflict under the narrative of "peace keeping", but I guess he decided the whole pie was worth the sanctions.
Definitly a miscalculation considering the fallout.

Don't see good times ahead either way this goes, we're in a new global paradigm.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Western intelligence is now reporting that several short range ballistic missiles aimed at Ukraine have failed to even launch and are speculating on wider ramifications.

There are discussions on cryptocurrency transactions and how to block them.  For our Russian artists, this may mean there will be no way to commission in order to prevent money from going to the Putin war chest.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Western intelligence is now reporting that several short range ballistic missiles aimed at Ukraine have failed to even launch and are speculating on wider ramifications.
> 
> There are discussions on cryptocurrency transactions and how to block them.  For our Russian artists, this may mean there will be no way to commission in order to prevent money from going to the Putin war chest.


... does this mean putins missile tests before the invasion was to ensure himself that the things still work afterall?


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> When a country is telling it's citizens to make molotov cocktails to use agaisnt an enemy invasion, they ain't winning or holding their grounds by any means....
> 
> But we might have some hope here, Ukraine has requested peace talks with Russia at the Belarus border.


Using Molotov Cocktails against tanks isn't that pointless after all. Tank engines produce much waste heat That's usually vented off with over a louver. If you manage to set it on fire with burning Liquid leaking in, the engine will overheat an shut the Tank down, so the crew has to leave the vehicle. This also won't render the Tank useless, so it may be requisitioned later on by your own forces.


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> Using Molotov Cocktails against tanks isn't that pointless after all. Tank engines produce much waste heat That's usually vented off with over a louver. If you manage to set it on fire with burning Liquid leaking in, the engine will overheat an shut the Tank down, so the crew has to leave the vehicle. This also won't render the Tank useless, so it may be requisitioned later on by your own forces.



That's great and all, but an armed conflict between nations shouldn't involve the civilian population unless your dealing with a last resort senerio, if ever.

Ain't hard to read between the lines.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 27, 2022)

I don't think this is any sort of justification, but just showing another perspective of the whole situation, by Danny DeVito. I stumbled across it by one of the doom metal channels.


----------



## Attaman (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> That's great and all, but an armed conflict between nations shouldn't involve the civilian population unless your dealing with a last resort senerio, if ever.
> 
> Ain't hard to read between the lines.


Being fair, when that armed conflict is to remove a nation's sovereignty and start engaging in ethnic cleansing / removing political undesirables (it's pretty much decisively confirmed at this point that if Ukraine's military collapses, Putin's going to start bagging demographics), it's kind of a given that the civilian population is going to be involved at some point. Particularly the civilian population under the looming specter of death / military occupation.

Kind of why there's rules of war in regards to treatment of PoW's, occupied states, et al. When one _doesn't_ establish them, or says "We openly intend to flout them upon achieving victory", it encourages nothing less than scorched earth / fight-to-the-last defensive measures.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Western intelligence is now reporting that several short range ballistic missiles aimed at Ukraine have failed to even launch and are speculating on wider ramifications.
> 
> There are discussions on cryptocurrency transactions and how to block them.  For our Russian artists, this may mean there will be no way to commission in order to prevent money from going to the Putin war chest.


I wonder if that means his nukes may also be broken?


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

Attaman said:


> Being fair, when that armed conflict is to remove a nation's sovereignty and start engaging in ethnic cleansing / removing political undesirables (it's pretty much decisively confirmed at this point that if Ukraine's military collapses, Putin's going to start bagging demographics), it's kind of a given that the civilian population is going to be involved at some point. Particularly the civilian population under the looming specter of death / military occupation.
> 
> Kind of why there's rules of war in regards to treatment of PoW's, occupied states, et al. When one _doesn't_ establish them, or says "We openly intend to flout them upon achieving victory", it encourages nothing less than scorched earth / fight-to-the-last defensive measures.



Yes, because I'm more then certain you have an ear to the Kremlin's desires for the outcome of this conflict.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> That's great and all, but an armed conflict between nations shouldn't involve the civilian population unless your dealing with a last resort senerio, if ever.
> 
> Ain't hard to read between the lines.



This war is unlike most others in many regards. Ukraine was blindsided by the invasion, and Putin criticly underrestimated the resistance of his target. At the moment there are reports that the Russian troops already run into logistical issues slowing down their advance even more. It's a complet clusterfuck on both sides.


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> This war is unlike most others in many regards. Ukraine was blindsided by the invasion, and Putin criticly underrestimated the resistance of his target. At the moment there are reports that the Russian troops already run into logistical issues slowing down their advance even more. It's a complet clusterfuck on both sides.



Nobody here has any clue as to what is really going on on the ground... 
Propaganda exists on both sides in the fog of war, you would be naive to think otherwise.


----------



## Attaman (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Yes, because I'm more then certain you have an ear to the Kremlin's desires for the outcome of this conflict.


I mean, we cannot assume rational acting based off what we know. Rational acting was - by your own admission earlier in this thread - "Not fucking Blitzkrieg-ing Ukraine". This leaves us with Putin's expressed motive. Which was "de-nazification, returning Ukraine back to Russia, dismantling the Soviet Union was a mistake". The first of which I seem to recall a certain crowd on here taking _very firm stances_ on "Where does the definition of who is and isn't a Nazi cut off?", the second making sure that you have a population edge (since Russia cannot economically afford to militaristically occupy Ukraine indefinitely) to retain control, and the third what you want that population edge to lean towards.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Nobody here has any clue as to what is really going on on the ground...
> Propaganda exists on both sides in the fog of war, you would be naive to think otherwise.


That's why I shared the video. I think it's important to see both perspectives, even if I think the inherent invasion is a fucked up archaic tactic.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Nobody here has any clue as to what is really going on on the ground...
> Propaganda exists on both sides in the fog of war, you would be naive to think otherwise.


At least we don't lie as much as Russians do. Their generals dare to say "no casualties" on TV, as if they treat their soldiers as cannon fodders.


----------



## NuclearConflict (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> At least we don't lie as much as Russians do. Their generals dare to say "no casualties" on TV, as if they treat their soldiers as cannon fodders.


"The first casualty of war is the truth."


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> At least we don't lie as much as Russians do. Their generals dare to say "no casualties" on TV, as if they treat their soldiers as cannon fodders.



I think both sides would have an equal motive to lie or misdirect about their progress or lack of their aggressors progress.

Ukraine's goverment acknowledgement of Kyiv being surrounded by Russian forces as well as their desire to hold talks with Russia on the border of Belarus on Monday tells alot about their current situation.

No doubt Russia has faced losses, Ukraine isn't Afghanistan or Iraq.
They have (or had) a formidable airforce as well as a considerable amount of equipment that made Russian Forces advancement difficult, not to mention the arms given by NATO to make the process for the Russians even more difficult.
But the Russians do have the numbers to back up their supremacy in this theater, not to mention their ability to strike targets via cruise missiles from the comfort of the Black Sea.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Feb 27, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> I don't think this is any sort of justification, but just showing another perspective of the whole situation, by Danny DeVito. I stumbled across it by one of the doom metal channels.



Sorry but this video is big time BS. Even if putin tried to do that, there's already violence comitted towards civilian Targets that alienated them in any possible way. And even if Putin manages to Take Kyiv and install a puppet regime, it'll never be aceppted by the people getting overthrown the minute his troops leave the country. And beeing unable to keep what you conquer is an even greater loss.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> But the Russians do have the numbers to back up their supremacy in this theater, not to mention their ability to strike targets via cruise missiles from the comfort of the Black Sea.


Their numbers are quickly falling, don't worry. And cruise missiles are mostly being shot down.


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Their numbers are quickly falling, don't worry. And cruise missiles are mostly being shot down.



K


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> K


It's your right to believe or not.


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> It's your right to believe or not.



Whatever the outcome I hope there can be a lasting peace between you and your neighbors in the near future.

Nobody wins in brother wars.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Whatever the outcome I hope there can be a lasting peace between you and your neighbors in the near future.
> 
> Nobody wins in brother wars.


That's true. I started to feel bad for Russian soldiers since war started. Like, some even changed sides and tried to protect our civilians, and died from a bullet of their own soldiers.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

US is setting up for staging, but not engaging.  So, I am envisioning a DC-10 painted gold for the Ghost of Kyiv as his personal refueler, with an Ace Combat style personal runway and repair facility on the ground for parts, pieces, and additional weapons loadouts.  Maybe other plane skins when donations reach certain levels.

Russian forces are unable to fight effectively.  The see the US reliance on satellites and networked systems as weakness and try to reduce their reliance on the radio spectrum to compensate.  The LoRAN system in Crimea was a boon to them as it allows GPS without satellite.  Update: it shows signs of negligence.

The Russians are destroying infrastructure.  American hubris is really we don't accept casualties on our forces which is why we pummel with ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and smart weapons.  We attack infrastructure to degrade or eliminate usefulness and create our own supply lines to press with forward momentum.  What your video was lacking is the lawyers and everyone else in a room deciding on targets and analysts agreeing to those targets, because why bomb a gas station when you can use it?

The Russians are not going in as a friendly conqueror trying to keep life good.  And I don't have any clue what is going on on the ground.  I have ADSB, software defined radios, and media.  I also have experience in squeezing out the juice because a small detail in a news story is someone's life: background image, parked car, collection of statements, chatter from some grunt who thinks what he says doesn't matter.

A conqueror, no matter how nicely he comes to your door, is still a conqueror.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 27, 2022)

SpaceX managed to get Starlink active in Ukraine, so now they will have internet access without much Russian interference.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Feb 27, 2022)

Attaman said:


> This leaves us with Putin's expressed motive. Which was "de-nazification, returning Ukraine back to Russia, dismantling the Soviet Union was a mistake".


Oh wow, I didn't know so many people around here had so much in common with Putin. I guess the constant state of intolerance and misuse of very strong words should've given that out!


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> SpaceX managed to get Starlink active in Ukraine, so now they will have internet access without much Russian interference.


Heard about it, I guess we are the first beta testers of Starlink, lol.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Heard about it, I guess we are the first beta testers of Starlink, lol.


Use it to spread the truth!


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

If you trust all the third party news outlets and them counting all the disabled vehicles, (which seems to be consistent) The Ukrainians are beating the shit out of them rn in terms of the amount of vehicles lost. Just in terms of tanks, it's hovering around 100 ish at the low end. Pretty substantial for just a few days of fighting.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Use it to spread the truth!


We are we are. I get to see a lot of videos and pictures each day, so.


----------



## loups_solitaire (Feb 27, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> That's great and all, but an armed conflict between nations shouldn't involve the civilian population unless your dealing with a last resort senerio, if ever.
> 
> Ain't hard to read between the lines.


I completely agree with the principle that civilians should never be involved in armed conflicts.
however, these are a utopian vision of the thing. 
Civilians have always been collateral damage in conflicts. moreover in this situation, it seems to me that all the men from 18 to 60 years old were conscripted. (information not verified I heard it on the news.)
this makes them enemy combatants in the eyes of the law.
the remaining civilians are their family, wife and child.
moreover, their countries and their homes are under attack. they are entitled to protect what is theirs. but I agreed.
the civilians should have been completely evacuated before the invasion. that's what would have happened if Russia hadn't launched the surprise invasion in the middle of the night.
I can only admire the courage of those who stayed behind to defend their homes and homes.
especially those who have no military training or skills.
these people are heroes and hopefully they won't die for it.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

loups_solitaire said:


> I completely agree with the principle that civilians should never be involved in armed conflicts.
> however, these are a utopian vision of the thing.
> Civilians have always been collateral damage in conflicts. moreover in this situation, it seems to me that all the men from 18 to 60 years old were conscripted. (information not verified I heard it on the news.)
> this makes them enemy combatants in the eyes of the law.
> ...


We Ukrainians have had enough with Putin's bullshit, that's why even civillians are fighting. We won't just sit and watch how our lands are being invaded, we already lost some territory 8 years ago. I think it's time for a revenge for that.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

US to provide Stinger missiles,  working on Javelins,.  Likely other countries will aid in getting them in and purchased.

Funny, but furry websites don't count as social media in Russia.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> US to provide Stinger missiles,  working on Javelins,.  Likely other countries will aid in getting them in and purchased.
> 
> Funny, but furry websites don't count as social media in Russia.


LOL, nice. Russians' gonna invade furry forums question mark?


----------



## The-Courier (Feb 27, 2022)

Russia's failed to take Kyiv four days in a row now and Putin's throwing a bitch fit about it.
Let's hope this keeps up.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Also, I've heard EU is aiding us real hard. They will send us fighters, lethal weapons and non lethat help (450+50 million Euros).


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> One thing I do know for sure, is that Russia didn't bring enough supplies and are having their supply lines under constant threat. I think that'll give you guys a decent chance to hold out. Certainly rooting for you over there.


Thank you very much. My mother today scared the shit out of me when she heard a bang outside or something. There was a possible alarm but it was cancelled. Breh.


----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

I saw the mention of sending jets, but they were light on details. Old Soviet designs still fielded by EU nations maybe? Does Ukraine have pilots for anything else in the short term?


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 27, 2022)




----------



## Smityyyy (Feb 27, 2022)

For what it’s worth, the Ukrainians have done some amazing stuff holding off the (much) more powerful Russian army. 

Who knows how long they can hold out but on Putin’s end, this is pretty embarrassing. I think he expected a much easier takeover. There’s a lot of elements to war and success. Sometimes the underdogs have the right amount of morale to win a seemingly unbeatable war. Wouldn’t be the first time we’ve seen it happen.

War in 2022 is vastly different than how it was in the past. I hold out hope for the Ukrainians as fighting a war today takes a unique strategy and doesn’t necessarily favor the most physically powerful army.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> LOL, nice. Russians' gonna invade furry forums question mark?


Ok, so I did ask friends giving info: I got linked to this:








						Forget Facebook, Russian agents have been pretending to be furries on Tumblr
					

The idea of Boris and Natasha generating pro-Trump furry porn is too delicious. But it’s no less worrying than any other influence exerted by foreign agents.




					www.newstatesman.com
				



So it is likely, because the FSB has done it before and likely have accounts and do pose as artists for money.  However, this is not well known social media, more like how humanitarian NGOs track the state of affairs.  Do not post classified information on unclassified sources and make sure they stay safe.  If they didn't know, as most Americans don't, the Ghost of Kyiv isn't the only badass.  There's also Reaper who is like Jesus' secretary with a rifle.  

So, there's apparently Reaper.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Ok, so I did ask friends giving info: I got linked to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Pro trump furry porn"

Lmao


----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

Just when you think you've seen all the fetishes.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Ok, so I did ask friends giving info: I got linked to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reaper? Haven't heard of that, maybe later I'll do.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Also, I've heard EU is aiding us real hard. They will send us fighters, lethal weapons and non lethat help (450+50 million Euros).


EU has approved it.
However, it looks like fighters are defensive.  This is going so badly some people are wondering is we seriously overestimated Russia.
If yes, plans for regime change in Russia and transition support and aid, and what that would look like so we don't repeat 1989.
If no (which is safer for the moment) continuing to bolster allies defenses.
It looks like China is the wild card, and they usually support Russia.


Ringo the Wolf said:


> Reaper? Haven't heard of that, maybe later I'll do.


Same here.  SOF friends have hard on for them, so guessing sniper.

Edit: sniper/39.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Same here.  SOF friends have hard on for them, so guessing sniper.
> 
> Edit: sniper/39.


Ahh, that sounds amazing, can I see any info on that?


----------



## ben909 (Feb 27, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> SpaceX managed to get Starlink active in Ukraine, so now they will have internet access without much Russian interference.


it seems so odd from a tech pov to me that official military info may travel across the same satellites that memes about the info does

... hopefuly they remember to encrypt their data


----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

So, that was quick?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498034918785531919


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Thank you very much. My mother today scared the shit out of me when she heard a bang outside or something. There was a possible alarm but it was cancelled. Breh.


Honestly, I'm not even sure if it was. There was a Telegram channel that was created recently with 2 posts, which are "air alarm" and "air alarm cancelled". There might be an air alarm going on in my region, but it's quiet here.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Ahh, that sounds amazing, can I see any info on that?


I'm guessing open source might have something.  There's several "our boys/girls" we're tracking.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Honestly I am super hoping what I get told is ok comes with a (U).
This is also the first time I've been told being a furry is a good thing?  lol

We're following this like the Super Bowl.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I'm guessing open source might have something.  There's several "our boys/girls" we're tracking.


Ah, nice, I'll see any news.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Honestly I am super hoping what I get told is ok comes with a (U).


A?


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

(U) Releasable, unsensitive.


Ringo the Wolf said:


> Ah, nice, I'll see any news.











						If you liked the 'Ghost of Kyiv', you will love the 'Ukrainian Reaper'
					

The country of Ukraine is in dire need of new heroes, especially right now that they are literally fighting for their entire survival. Early in the afternoon, you could already see




					www.marca.com
				




Guessing this is what we're looking for.

Yandex bot is stuck on this thread and
Hiring: ($15+) Looking to hire for drawing a Monkey Sona (Please read description) [OPEN]​
Oh, yay.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Russia is now complaining the US is using surveillance drones.

Stay safe guys.  I think they thought they were to going to war against Nerf.


----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Russia is now complaining the US is using surveillance drones.


Give them a week or two and they'll notice all the antitank rockets.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 27, 2022)

LameFox said:


> So, that was quick?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498034918785531919


As far as I understand the majority of Russian forces are still using dated fighter jets as are the Ukrainians. Many of them are Su-27s I think?. (The Russians have modern jets, but it isn't the majority of their current air force IIRC) If the EU is sending top of the line, modern jets in considerable quantity, that's a huge game changer. Of course, Ukraine still needs to hold out long enough for this to make a difference.


----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

From what I read they are giving them Soviet gear that some EU nations were still fielding. Maybe some internal bits are updated but it's not actually a new type of plane, which I guess is the idea since otherwise it'd take some time to train on it.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

It Is estimated it will take the Russian military 3 months of recovery for every week of fighting.


----------



## Guifrog (Feb 27, 2022)

#BrazilWithUkraine among Twitter trending topics here

I want to believe this tragedy won't escalate further, but the course of things + Putin's logic make me apprehensive


----------



## Flamingo (Feb 27, 2022)

No gore allowed on FA. This is everyone's free warning after I've deleted multiple posts.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

I hope everyone is doing well.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Feb 27, 2022)

The night is quiet here.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

Glad to hear you are ok.  Hopefully everyone still is.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

WRAPUP 8-Western companies head for the exit in Russia as sanctions tighten
					

Energy giants BP and Shell, global bank HSBC and the world's biggest aircraft leasing firm AerCap joined a growing list of companies looking to exit Russia on Monday, as Western sanctions tightened the screws on Moscow over its invasion of Ukraine.  The West has moved to punish Russia with a...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 27, 2022)




----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

Did someone write the fucking Z the wrong way around the first time...?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 27, 2022)

LameFox said:


> Did someone write the fucking Z the wrong way around the first time...?


yep lmao


----------



## LameFox (Feb 27, 2022)

Well now I better understand the need to label them in the first place.


----------



## Flamingo (Feb 27, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


>


The top two are Ukrainians trolling and I love it.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

I'm putting this up in my windowless office.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 27, 2022)

Been watching Agenda Free TV, I can't stand the mainstream news livestreams with previous recordings for like 20 minutes straight.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 27, 2022)

This just in








						Putin ‘furious’ Ukraine invasion hasn’t been ‘easy,’ EU official says, citing intel report
					

Putin is "furious" and "fuming" according to a European Union official who says he has reviewed a Ukrainian intelligence report. Putin is accompanied in the Urals by Russian oligarchs.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Kellan Meig'h (Feb 28, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Tell that to bar owners across America who actually pulled Stoli from the shelves.
> 
> Tell the same to the people who dumped their Smirnoff vodka, at minimum.
> 
> ...


I bought a case(!) of Stoli today for pennies. The guy was overjoyed I was taking it and offered a better price if I took every drop he had. AFter I loaded up, I tried to point out it was made in Latvia, he said I was lying and its fukkin' Russian. Oh well, never said the sharpest knives in the drawer were from the Midwest.


----------



## Simo (Feb 28, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> First of all I like to say that I don't have a Problem with Russia or the Russian people. But Putin isn't Russia. I preached since 15 years that this man may be the greatest threat for world peace since the end of WW2. Putin was behind most of the shit that happend in the world since the 90ths. But still his aggression got downplayed by people and politicans. Some people even praised him as a luminous figure and savior of christian conservative values. But now he has shown his true colours, the colours of a dictator and war criminal he always was. A few ours ago he even announce that russia mobilized his nuclear forces. And it's verry possible that we're just at the start of an escalation getting far worse.
> 
> In these hours my heart and best whishes are with the brave people of the Ukraine. And also the righteous protesters in russia which also despise this pointless agression that Putin brought over us all. Keep heart and keep hope.


I couldn't agree more. It was a huge mistake, to underestimate Putin, and to wishfully think that Russia was on the road to democracy, simply because the Soviet Union fell. And yet here we are, no thanks to the former administration, and it's propensity to fawn over and play footsy with Vladimir Putin. It's even more incredible to me to see Putin being praised even now as 'a genius' and 'savvy' by the former president even as the majority of Americans unite in support of the Ukraine, and against Putin, and even as thousands of our own troops travel to join NATO for (moral) support. How is this at all tolerated?

I think people like John McCain had it right in 2018 when he said, "Vladimir Putin is an evil man, and he is intent on evil deeds...", pushing back against the notion that Putin wasn't really anything to worry about, and was somehow some champion of family values that 'loved his country'. So what?


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 28, 2022)

Russia's war on social media isn't going well, either
					

Despite Russia's efforts to control the narrative of its war in Ukraine, the internet has banded together to provide support for accurate information and humanitarian aid.




					mashable.com
				




Cyberwar isn't going so hot either.  Hopefully this helps provide some idea as to what is going on.  Pretty bad when this might be one of the few social media sites still mostly accessible since twitter, Fb, and others are choked.

Stay safe.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> This just in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what you get when you make mistakes that everyone else learned in WW2


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 28, 2022)

Simo said:


> I couldn't agree more. It was a huge mistake, to underestimate Putin, and to wishfully think that Russia was on the road to democracy, simply because the Soviet Union fell. And yet here we are, no thanks to the former administration, and it's propensity to fawn over and play footsy with Vladimir Putin. It's even more incredible to me to see Putin being praised even now as 'a genius' and 'savvy' by the former president even as the majority of Americans unite in support of the Ukraine, and against Putin, and even as thousands of our own troops travel to join NATO for (moral) support. How is this at all tolerated?
> 
> I think people like John McCain had it right in 2018 when he said, "Vladimir Putin is an evil man, and he is intent on evil deeds...", pushing back against the notion that Putin wasn't really anything to worry about, and was somehow some champion of family values that 'loved his country'. So what?


Reminder, Trump is a businessman, not a politician.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 28, 2022)

Wasn't trump being sarcastic when he said "peace force"?


----------



## Rimna (Feb 28, 2022)

What a senseless slaughter. I have people I care about in Russia and in Ukraine. I have not heard from them since Saturday.

There are refugee accomodations set up in my home town, and also in the town I'll be traveling to in 2 weeks. It's a bit of light in this nightmare. I don't know if I can send any money to Ukraine in a way they can be withdrawn and used, but I can try to provide some food and supplies for those shelters here.

If it means anything, I am glad that most of the world is united in this. Every little bit helps. Thwarting evil can be done in many many ways.


----------



## TR273 (Feb 28, 2022)

Not sure if this has been brought up but...
Here's a link to the Ukrainian Red Cross 








						Donate – Товариство Червоного Хреста України
					






					redcross.org.ua
				



If anyone has some spare cash and wants to make a donation.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 28, 2022)

Rimna said:


> What a senseless slaughter. I have people I care about in Russia and in Ukraine. I have not heard from them since Saturday.
> 
> There are refugee accomodations set up in my home town, and also in the town I'll be traveling to in 2 weeks. It's a bit of light in this nightmare. I don't know if I can send any money to Ukraine in a way they can be withdrawn and used, but I can try to provide some food and supplies for those shelters here.
> 
> If it means anything, I am glad that most of the world is united in this. Every little bit helps. Thwarting evil can be done in many many ways.


Red Cross, Humanity Road and other relief NGOs are working on this.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 28, 2022)

How to Support the People of Ukraine Right Now
					

The Russian military has invaded Ukraine, forcing civilians to flee to bomb shelters for their safety. Here's how you can help.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

The Russians have taken 1 city in their blitz in the Ukraine so far. In 5 days all they have to show for themselves is a small city near the south. Gotta hand it to Ukraine, you guys are holding it down pretty well. Sounds like you're really sticking it to them. The longer you guys hold out, the harder it's going to be on Russia to keep an invasion force up. Especially with how few supplies they have with them. Good on ya guys. You all are so much tougher and resilient than people give ya credit for.


----------



## Kumali (Feb 28, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Reminder, Trump is a businessman, not a politician.



Not even that.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Feb 28, 2022)

Simo said:


> I couldn't agree more. It was a huge mistake, to underestimate Putin, and to wishfully think that Russia was on the road to democracy, simply because the Soviet Union fell. And yet here we are, no thanks to the former administration, and it's propensity to fawn over and play footsy with Vladimir Putin. It's even more incredible to me to see Putin being praised even now as 'a genius' and 'savvy' by the former president even as the majority of Americans unite in support of the Ukraine, and against Putin, and even as thousands of our own troops travel to join NATO for (moral) support. How is this at all tolerated?


Others have already suggested the orange guy was sarcastic, or that he's a businessman rather than a politician.

I'll give you another: treating it as a very VERY different kind of bastardry than the one you're describing here.  Getting someone to drop their guard by showering them with praise, only to stab them in the back later (or have someone else do it in this case I guess?), is common enough in the normal world that I would not be surprised in the least if it happened regularly in politics... and this is more-or-less a form of it on a national scale.

Sometimes there is simply no other way to uproot an oppressor than this kind of dickery.

Politics is not shiny and clean in the least and I wish people understood that.  It's not something people should be emulating or aspiring to, it's a fact of life with nasty consequences.

I don't even know if that CAN be fixed in that field.


Like I said in the other thread, the reality is there's too many ways it can go wrong with the type of weaponry Russia can TECHNICALLY access.  I say "technically" given how much of a mess Putin's in right now.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

... can we please not bring trump into this thread


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Feb 28, 2022)

ben909 said:


> ... can we please not bring trump into this thread


Understood, the answer I gave was all I planned to say on the matter.

And my answer is kind of reduced to take-it-or-leave-it at this point, so me doing any counters to a rebuttal is kind of pointless.


----------



## Universe (Feb 28, 2022)

This is ridiculous can’t the world just get along with each other


----------



## Kumali (Feb 28, 2022)

ben909 said:


> ... can we please not bring trump into this thread



Not sure it's gonna be avoidable, given Trump's very public support of Putin, and the Republican Party, in turn, unquestioningly supporting Trump (and therefore Putin). It's always useful for us Americans to know which of our fellow citizens support democracy and which support authoritarianism.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 28, 2022)

Universe said:


> This is ridiculous can’t the world just get along with each other


Apparently, only when a crazy person threatens the entire world, and even then, that ramps up many hypocrisies of the western hemisphere, further dismantling domestic principles, if there were any to begin with...


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> "Pro trump furry porn"
> 
> Lmao



I can confirm having seen this in the wild.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

Live news in English out of the Ukraine.



			https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent
		




			https://twitter.com/NewVoiceUkraine
		


*GLORY TO UKRAINE! Слава Україні!*


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Kumali said:


> *snip*


Let's keep politics out of this thread, please. Especially unrelated accusational statements


----------



## Foxridley (Feb 28, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I can confirm having seen this in the wild.


It wouldn't be Rule 34 if there wasn't.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Russia rn be like


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

*resists urge to try and make a " 'special ' military operation" meme... as its offensice... and totally not because i cannot meme


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

Savage post I saw about Ukrainian soldiers leaving reviews on google maps for the cities they are defending. Their reviews are pictures of K.I.A Russian troops. I feel sorry for the Russians sent to die there because of the ego of one old man. But alas.. Such is war.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

Skittles said:


> Savage post I saw about Ukrainian soldiers leaving reviews on google maps for the cities they are defending. Their reviews are pictures of K.I.A Russian troops. I feel sorry for the Russians sent to die there because of the ego of one old man. But alas.. Such is war.


they are trying to hurt the russian morale...


----------



## LameFox (Feb 28, 2022)

10/10 'to die for'


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 28, 2022)

This thread is making me feel physically sick because there is a certain amount of revelling in death. I am just glad that I wasn't online when people were posting gore. ._.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> This thread is making me feel physically sick because there is a certain amount of revelling in death. I am just glad that I wasn't online when people were posting gore. ._.


again that was probably spread to make russia look weak and Ukraine look strong, makeing fun of russia here is in a way is spreading views of a weak russia

...
even if that is an after the fact justification for dark humor


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

ben909 said:


> they are trying to hurt the russian morale...


Obviously.  Although I believe the fact. They don't want to be there. The lack of food and fuel. The constant stiff resistance by Ukrainian forces. Has already done plenty of damage. Hell they sent in Chechyen shock troopers. And it's already rumoured but not verified that one of their commanders is K.I.A.


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 28, 2022)

ben909 said:


> again that was probably spread to make russia look weak and Ukraine look strong, makeing fun of russia here is in a way is spreading views of a weak russia
> 
> ...
> even if that is an after the fact justification for dark humor



I am very reluctant to mock a slower than expected Russian military advance, because Russia may yet re-organise its offensive or resort to more brutal or indiscriminate warfare. 

I don't want to make fun of Russian troops being killed because these are still young men. Young men who have been misled and who are being made to do a terrible thing- as many soldiers in war are.


----------



## Kumali (Feb 28, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Let's keep politics out of this thread, please. Especially unrelated accusational statements



You know, I've been wondering about that since this thread started. 

It's hard to see how discussion of an active war can avoid politics. And I don't personally agree that observing American political figures' words and actions that are directly related to the topic of the thread can be considered "unrelated" or "accusational" (what have I accused anybody of that they haven't openly said or done in public view?).

If we're to avoid politics, perhaps this whole thread should be taken down as per the forum's ban on political content. One country invading another militarily, and other countries' reaction to it, can hardly avoid being political on the face of it. @Flamingo, what do you think?


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

Kumali said:


> You know, I've been wondering about that since this thread started.
> 
> It's hard to see how discussion of an active war can avoid politics. And I don't personally agree that observing American political figures' words and actions that are directly related to the topic of the thread can be considered "unrelated" or "accusational" (what have I accused anybody of that they haven't openly said or done in public view?).
> 
> If we're to avoid politics, perhaps this whole thread should be taken down as per the forum's ban on political content. One country invading another militarily, and other countries' reaction to it, can hardly avoid being political on the face of it. @Flamingo, what do you think?


it was moved from some vent thread stuff, in there we got an ok to talk about the conflict if we were careful to not bring  politics into it, although at that time it was much more about the users who were in personal danger over this, less about what the world is doing


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

I'm just analyzing things from an armchair, but in wars like these air superiority is one of the most decisive factors in modern warfare aside from strong supply lines. Russia has had neither as far as I can tell. The Ukrainian air defenses seem to be doing much better than was expected and is taking down a bunch of their drones and some of their jets. It's a bit difficult to verify, but I think most of the bombing is coming from artillery pieces. As more supplies come in from foreign countries, I think the Ukraine's position will only get stronger.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm just analyzing things from an armchair, but in wars like these air superiority is one of the most decisive factors in modern warfare aside from strong supply lines. Russia has had neither as far as I can tell. The Ukrainian air defences seem to be doing much better than was expected and is taking down a bunch of their drones and some of their jets. It's a bit difficult to verify, but I think most of the bombing is coming from artillery pieces. As more supplies come in from foreign coutnries, I think the Ukraine's position will only get stronger.


i am still very suppressed they can fly planes of their own still


----------



## LameFox (Feb 28, 2022)

I find it hard to feel that sorry for them tbh. I thought we kinda passed the phase where following orders was seen as an acceptable reason to do terrible things. We've seen where it goes. I'll save my sympathy for the ones who refuse.

On that note, I did read some speculation that some of those tanks running out of fuel might be a result of crews subtly dumping it, whether because they're against fighting or just because the tanks are death traps.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I find it hard to feel that sorry for them tbh. I thought we kinda passed the phase where following orders was seen as an acceptable reason to do terrible things. We've seen where it goes. I'll save my sympathy for the ones who refuse.
> 
> On that note, I did read some speculation that some of those tanks running out of fuel might be a result of crews subtly dumping it, whether because they're against fighting or just because the tanks are death traps.


tanks seem more like field cannons now almost then armor


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm just analyzing things from an armchair, but in wars like these air superiority is one of the most decisive factors in modern warfare aside from strong supply lines. Russia has had neither as far as I can tell. The Ukrainian air defences seem to be doing much better than was expected and is taking down a bunch of their drones and some of their jets. It's a bit difficult to verify, but I think most of the bombing is coming from artillery pieces. As more supplies come in from foreign coutnries, I think the Ukraine's position will only get stronger.


Yep. There is still a lot more suffering that will come before the end of this, but Ukraine will win. And Russia will be in a bad position afterwards


----------



## LameFox (Feb 28, 2022)

idk about how tanks in general perform these days but it seems like most of these are T-72s. Not only dated, but I've heard the internal layout is really good at getting the crew killed along with the vehicle.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I find it hard to feel that sorry for them tbh. I thought we kinda passed the phase where following orders was seen as an acceptable reason to do terrible things. We've seen where it goes. I'll save my sympathy for the ones who refuse.
> 
> On that note, I did read some speculation that some of those tanks running out of fuel might be a result of crews subtly dumping it, whether because they're against fighting or just because the tanks are death traps.


If I am not mistaken alot of the tank casualties are due to the Russians having mostly T-72s or other soviet models in service. Those are tanks from around the 70s? I may be wrong of course but I am at least aware a good bulk of their tanks are  from the days of the Soviet Union, and those are being matched against more modern anti tank weapons.

EDIT: looks like you were thinking the same as me


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

<joke>you need to use soviet equipment to remake a soviet ideaset<\joke>


----------



## NuclearConflict (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> If I am not mistaken alot of the tank casualties are due to the Russians having mostly T-72s or other soviet models in service. Those are tanks from around the 70s? I may be wrong of course but I am at least aware a good bulk of their tanks are  from the days of the Soviet Union, and those are being matched against more modern anti tank weapons.
> 
> EDIT: looks like you were thinking the same as me


They are also using modernized soviet era T-80s and T-90s.
There isn't really any tank that can withstand modern AT weaponry.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

NuclearConflict said:


> They are also using modernized soviet era T-80s and T-90s.
> There isn't really any tank that can withstand modern AT weaponry.


I wouldn't know tbh. I don't know if stuff like the Javelin for example, was tested against modern battle tanks. I have heard the Javelin was quite effective though. I beleive it works by attempting to target where the tanks armor is thinnest. So, striking at the top.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

Definitely not looking good for Russia if these can be verified. This is from the Ukrainian estimates.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I wouldn't know tbh. I don't know if stuff like the Javelin for example, was tested against modern battle tanks. I have heard the Javelin was quite effective though. I beleive it works by attempting to target where the tanks armor is thinnest. So, striking at the top.


Javelins WRECK all armour currently. They are just that good.


----------



## LameFox (Feb 28, 2022)

Assuming that's accurate, it's continually surprised me that helicopters and aircraft have remained fairly similar in numbers. I thought with all those MANPADS out there the helicopters would suffer higher losses.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

LameFox said:


> Assuming that's accurate, it's continually surprised me that helicopters and aircraft have remained fairly similar in numbers. I thought with all those MANPADS out there the helicopters would suffer higher losses.


There's footage of a MI 24 coming down quite spectacularly.


----------



## TR273 (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> If I am not mistaken alot of the tank casualties are due to the Russians having mostly T-72s or other soviet models in service. Those are tanks from around the 70s? I may be wrong of course but I am at least aware a good bulk of their tanks are  from the days of the Soviet Union, and those are being matched against more modern anti tank weapons.
> 
> EDIT: looks like you were thinking the same as me


If they are using Soviet era tanks, I seem to have read somewhere that they have a massive design flaw.
The shells are stored in the area of the turret pivot (I can't remember the exact name for it), so any penetration of the turret will cook off all the ammo, turning the tank and crew into a crater in fairly short order.
This accounted for the massive casualties suffered by sides using Soviet tanks in both the '6 day war' and 'Desert Storm'.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

Soviet era tanks broil up good! I recall seeing a video form Syria where one takes a hit and turns into a firework factory. Sending a jet of flame up through the turret and gun. Not pretty.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Skittles said:


> Soviet era tanks broil up good! I recall seeing a video form Syria where one takes a hit and turns into a firework factory. Sending a jet of flame up through the turret and gun. Not pretty.


Can happen to any tank, really. many soviet designs are just more vulnerable upon armour penetration


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

TR273 said:


> If they are using Soviet era tanks, I seem to have read somewhere that they have a massive design flaw.
> The shells are stored in the area of the turret pivot (I can't remember the exact name for it), so any penetration of the turret will cook off all the ammo, turning the tank and crew into a crater in fairly short order.
> This accounted for the massive casualties suffered by sides using Soviet tanks in both the '6 day war' and 'Desert Storm'.


No wonder they've been losing so many tanks crews. I don't know a huge amount about Soviet Era tanks but I always had the impression they were not the most well designed. Obviously Russia's more modern designs are far more safe/usable, but that's not the majority of what they are working with.  A part of me feels bad, but I mean, there is a clear defender and aggressor here.


----------



## ConorHyena (Feb 28, 2022)

LameFox said:


> Assuming that's accurate, it's continually surprised me that helicopters and aircraft have remained fairly similar in numbers. I thought with all those MANPADS out there the helicopters would suffer higher losses.


They are fielding more fixed-wing aircraft than helicopters, so you are still correct.



KimberVaile said:


> No wonder they've been losing so many tanks crews. I don't know a huge amount about Soviet Era tanks but I always had the impression they were not the most well designed. Obviously Russia's more modern designs are far more safe/usable, but that's not the majority of what they are working with.


Soviet era tanks are absolutely terrifying weapons, the soviets had significant expertise in composite and reactive armour, and the low profile helped with keeping them obscured. They, in the hands of well-trained crews, were definitly a match for comparable western-made MBTs.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

But exposed or in urban combat without troops to back them up. They suffer the fate of most tanks. Kaboom.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> They are fielding more fixed-wing aircraft than helicopters, so you are still correct.
> 
> 
> Soviet era tanks are absolutely terrifying weapons, the soviets had significant expertise in composite and reactive armour, and the low profile helped with keeping them obscured. They, in the hands of well-trained crews, were definitly a match for comparable western-made MBTs.


I'll probably show my bias here but at least in terms of the 80s, I always felt the M1 Abrahms badly outclassed it's Soviet contemporaries. It's had a much better track record, imo.


----------



## Skittles (Feb 28, 2022)

British Engineering for you~ (We designed the gun it uses ;D ) After discovering Soviet tanks were virtually immune to ours during the Hungarian uprising.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Another thing to look at is crew survival rate, and also the tank's ability to continue functioning after receiving a penetrating shot. Russian tanks are more vulnerable than those of many other nations, and many of the designs only allow for the driver to escape easily in the case of a fire or ammunition explosion (driver gets a hull floor escape hatch)
Look at western designs, or Israeli designs (the Merkava is awesome) and you'll see a much greater focus on preserving the crew. And as part of that, these tanks are more likely to remain functional, or at least partially functional, after receiving a penetrating hit from an AT weapon


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

are these the same tanks that had the unarmored   external fuel tanks?


----------



## ConorHyena (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'll probably show my bias here but at least in terms of the 80s, I always felt the M1 Abrahms badly outclassed it's Soviet contemporaries. It's had a much better track record, imo.


The comparable russian MBT (the later-model T80) was roughly equal to the M1 - The M1's a good design, but the soviets definitly also knew what they were doing.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 28, 2022)

With how many vehicles Russia is losing they may have to pull the Tsar Tank out of its WW1 retirement:


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> With how many vehicles Russia is losing they may have to pull the Tsar Tank out of its WW1 retirement:


bad part is it might do better on their roads then it did in  testing


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 28, 2022)

Also seeing as Putin is basically hitler at this point they may also have to pull the WW2 era Kugelpanzer out of that museum in Siberia they have it in at this point as well:


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Someone did a fake vid in warthunder about russia bringing the Maus to ukraine, that was great


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Feb 28, 2022)

At this point I wouldnt be surprised if Russia revived all its weird Cold War era projects as a backup like Germany had with its V weapons at the end of WW2.


----------



## LameFox (Feb 28, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Also seeing as Putin is basically hitler at this point they may also have to pull the WW2 era Kugelpanzer out of that museum in Siberia they have it in at this point as well:


If you left that in the driveway it would fill up with junk mail.


----------



## Flamingo (Feb 28, 2022)

Kumali said:


> You know, I've been wondering about that since this thread started.
> 
> It's hard to see how discussion of an active war can avoid politics. And I don't personally agree that observing American political figures' words and actions that are directly related to the topic of the thread can be considered "unrelated" or "accusational" (what have I accused anybody of that they haven't openly said or done in public view?).
> 
> If we're to avoid politics, perhaps this whole thread should be taken down as per the forum's ban on political content. One country invading another militarily, and other countries' reaction to it, can hardly avoid being political on the face of it. @Flamingo, what do you think?


I don't equate the invasion of another sovereign nation with needlessly partisan topics people are usually slap fighting about.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> The comparable russian MBT (the later-model T80) was roughly equal to the M1 - The M1's a good design, but the soviets definitly also knew what they were doing.


On this instance, I'm not sure I can agree.

There are alot of variables to consider in terms of statistics, like the tactics used, the situations each tank was put in, the training of the crew, so on. But, with that said. In Desert Storm about 9 Abraham were lost of about 3,100. 7 were due to friendly fire, 2 were disabled. The Abrhamas was a 10 year old design at that point.

The First Chechen war was the proving grounds for the T-80, and if I recall correctly, the amount of tanks they lost went in the quadruple digits.. Possible exageration, but I recall the losses were excessive. Granted, they were used unwisely in urban combat often, but a big part of the losses were due to the lack of reactive armor and worse the gas turbine engine that made it so when hit at the right angle, it went up in flames.. The Abrahams conversely was a better armored machine. T 80s did slightly better in tank vs tank battles but it wasn't an overwhelming victory like the Battle of Medina ridge. Which was like, 300 ish Abrams going against some equivlant ish number of T-72 and some Type 69s. It was a pretty one sided affair. I think they lost 4 of 380?

Granted my understanding of modern history is spotty at times but, I don't see the T 80 as nearly in the same league. I know most countries, made tank designs directly in response to how successful the Abrahams was as a tank.


----------



## ConorHyena (Feb 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> On this instance, I'm not sure I can agree.
> 
> There are alot of variables to consider in terms of statistics, like the tactics used, the situations each tank was put in, the training of the crew, so on. But, with that said. In Desert Storm about 9 Abraham were lost of about 3,100. 7 were due to friendly fire, 2 were disabled. The Abrhamas was a 10 year old design at that point.
> 
> ...


In the end the question 'who will win' is fairly pointless to begin with as you have correctly pointed out - If the americans had used T80s during desert storm instead of the M1 the losses would have been quite similar as to how they were with the M1. 

They are both considered generation 3 MBTs and thus _broadly_ similar in abilities.

Regardless of that, it's hardly material to this conflict - the situation the russians are in is not directly related to what type of tank they are using but rather in major strategic oversights.


----------



## Rimna (Feb 28, 2022)

The defiant soldiers of Snake Island are actually 'alive and well,' says Ukraine's navy | CNN
					

The Ukrainian defenders of Snake Island -- who were all feared dead after their defiant response to threats from a Russian warship -- are actually "alive and well," according to the Ukrainian Navy.




					edition.cnn.com
				




I think I will take a break from following news regarding the war.


----------



## KimberVaile (Feb 28, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> In the end the question 'who will win' is fairly pointless to begin with as you have correctly pointed out - If the americans had used T80s during desert storm instead of the M1 the losses would have been quite similar as to how they were with the M1.
> 
> They are both considered generation 3 MBTs and thus _broadly_ similar in abilities.
> 
> Regardless of that, it's hardly material to this conflict - the situation the russians are in is not directly related to what type of tank they are using but rather in major strategic oversights.



It wasn't really phrased as a question regarding who would win to begin with. More so the track record of each and their respective reliability. The T-80 had more design flaws and less robust armor, as far as I understand it.  If they had used t80s I feel like there likely would have been considerably more losses.  Keep in mind even the Russians at the time bemoaned how critical of a design flaw the gas turbine engine was, they made a point to bring up that the tank had evident flaws. That much was revealed during the First Chechen war. Which is partially why I brought it up, it revealed evident flaws in the design.

Generally speaking, the Abrahams tended to be more reliable/survivable during it's use, imo. I feel that's why the Abrahams has so many tanks that were made as direct competitors to it. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know enough to say that the Abrahamas was well designed enough that other tanks comparatively were considered well behind it for some time.

In regards to the conflict I think I mentioned their tank design was hurting them, which, I think it can be argued it is. If not for the lower survival rate of the tank crews manning the Soviet tanks are.


----------



## Kumali (Feb 28, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> I don't equate the invasion of another sovereign nation with needlessly partisan topics people are usually slap fighting about.



Cool. Then I stand by what I said in post #192.


----------



## Borophagus Metropolis (Feb 28, 2022)

I think this thread should be forwarded to the UN Security Council. Do they have a tweeter?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

Sweden is sending AT weapons to Ukraine


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Sweden is sending AT weapons to Ukraine


if they get there in time


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 28, 2022)

Nuclear attack instructions, have been recently updated.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 28, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Nuclear attack instructions, have been recently updated.


I don't live too far from a plant...


----------



## Ramjet (Feb 28, 2022)

I'm glad I live in the middle of fucking nowhere.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 28, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> I don't live too far from a plant...


Yep, 13 miles away...


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 28, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> I don't live too far from a plant...


I live in LA, but at least in a suburb which should be far enough from ground zero.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Feb 28, 2022)

I'm not even sure if I should worry anymore. 

My skin and eyes are beginning to yellow, and I am having a hard time eating. I may not even be alive soon, however, I just wish I didn't have to see the world go this way on top of all the health issues I'm dealing with, even if I don't make it another year. It would really suck to go out with everything looking the way it is now... I really just want to be happy, comfortable and at peace, surrounded by people who show that they give a shit about me, and for people to just stop yelling and hating each other in my house, and fix the broken friendships from those in the past, for people to just stop trying to be right, and listen to the other person for 5 minutes, and everyone I know could regroup, just for a little while, without bad blood. I'm just really upset with how wrong things can go, yet how rare anything ever goes right.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> I'm not even sure if I should worry anymore.
> 
> My skin and eyes are beginning to yellow, and I am having a hard time eating. I may not even be alive soon, however, I just wish I didn't have to see the world go this way on top of all the health issues I'm dealing with, even if I don't make it another year. It would really suck to go out with everything looking the way it is now... I really just want to be happy, comfortable and at peace, surrounded by people who show that they give a shit about me, and for people to just stop yelling and hating each other in my house, and fix the broken friendships from those in the past, for people to just stop trying to be right, and listen to the other person for 5 minutes, and everyone I know could regroup, just for a little while, without bad blood. I'm just really upset with how wrong things can go, yet how rare anything ever goes right.


you may want to take a break from news for a while to improve your health


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 28, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> I'm not even sure if I should worry anymore.
> 
> My skin and eyes are beginning to yellow, and I am having a hard time eating. I may not even be alive soon, however, I just wish I didn't have to see the world go this way on top of all the health issues I'm dealing with, even if I don't make it another year. It would really suck to go out with everything looking the way it is now... I really just want to be happy, comfortable and at peace, surrounded by people who show that they give a shit about me, and for people to just stop yelling and hating each other in my house, and fix the broken friendships from those in the past, for people to just stop trying to be right, and listen to the other person for 5 minutes, and everyone I know could regroup, just for a little while, without bad blood. I'm just really upset with how wrong things can go, yet how rare anything ever goes right.


I feel the same way. Can barely focus on college anymore. Especially since like if the worst case scenario comes, I should be focusing on how to survive, because before that it was second nature. Now I may have to prioritize it.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

russia is unlikely to use a nuke on the us before trying a cyber attack,  even if you think putin is no longer rational enough to care about his life, this point can stand


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Feb 28, 2022)

I often deal with stressful information/thoughts using mental disciplines. The particular method I use is I concentrate on the knowledge that is stressing me out or whatever. I take that, and imagine putting it in a chest and locking it, and then warn myself that I don't like what's in that box. Using this I'm generally able to get the information out of my conscious so it doesn't bother me. I'm still subconsciously aware of what the information is, but there's a mental shield that lets me be aware of it without consciously processing it and thus worrying


----------



## NuclearConflict (Feb 28, 2022)

ben909 said:


> russia is unlikely to use a nuke on the us before trying a cyber attack,  even if you think putin is no longer rational enough to care about his life, this point can stand


Barking dogs seldom bite. 
Unless there are mass of foreign boots on Russian soil, then things would turn way worse.


----------



## ben909 (Feb 28, 2022)

NuclearConflict said:


> Barking dogs seldom bite.
> Unless there are mass of foreign boots on Russian soil, then things would turn way worse.


that to


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 28, 2022)

Skittles said:


> Obviously.  Although I believe the fact. They don't want to be there. The lack of food and fuel. The constant stiff resistance by Ukrainian forces. Has already done plenty of damage. Hell they sent in Chechyen shock troopers. And it's already rumoured but not verified that one of their commanders is K.I.A.


Confirmed.  LGBTQ community here erupted.  Of course, temper that with military so kinda same for named scum and villainy. We're actually pretty hospitable and good natured to junior enemy troops who put up a good fight or just surrender.  No shame, because we might be friends tomorrow.


KimberVaile said:


> No wonder they've been losing so many tanks crews. I don't know a huge amount about Soviet Era tanks but I always had the impression they were not the most well designed.


See also Javelin.
So sleepy.  Saw this on a computer:





To everyone in Ukraine, stay safe and let us know.
A lot of us in US are rooting for you.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 28, 2022)

I used to fear the Russian military.  Like end of Cold War nuke us at any moment fear.
When I joined the military and they were the last people we wanted to face off with.

Now it's all grandmas with sunflower seeds dressing telling them they are going to die while in full battle rattle, watching them Uber to gas stations to get fuel for tanks, accidentally discharge a weapon into their battle buddy, or their spec ops done in by a dog retreiving a thrown grenade.  Omg, I wasted 24 years of my life learning markmanship and doing physical training when playing CoD really was likely sufficient.








						Western Military Observers Shocked at How Badly Russia’s Military Is Doing
					

Multiple sources told VICE News that NATO military officials have been surprised by both Russian incompetence in the field and the fierce Ukrainian resistance.




					www.vice.com
				











						No, You’re Not Imagining It: Russia’s Army Is Inept
					

But superior firepower still gives it an edge in the short run.




					slate.com


----------



## Parabellum3 (Feb 28, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I used to fear the Russian military.  Like end of Cold War nuke us at any moment fear.
> When I joined the military and they were the last people we wanted to face off with.
> 
> Now it's all grandmas with sunflower seeds dressing telling them they are going to die while in full battle rattle, watching them Uber to gas stations to get fuel for tanks, accidentally discharge a weapon into their battle buddy, or their spec ops done in by a dog retreiving a thrown grenade.  Omg, I wasted 24 years of my life learning markmanship and doing physical training when playing CoD really was likely sufficient.
> ...


I'm quite surprised myself too. But that's what happens when most of your army are conscripts and are sent with outdated equipment. It appears that Putin is reserving the best for a Western response, yet he underestimated the determination of the Ukrainian forces. Very foolish of him.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Feb 28, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> I'm quite surprised myself too. But that's what happens when most of your army are conscripts and are sent with outdated equipment. It appears that Putin is reserving the best for a Western response, yet he underestimated the determination of the Ukrainian forces. Very foolish of him.


This was his shock and awe demonstration to the West...
It is so ineffective, expensive, and just...bad... even China is back to dusting off the book on how not to anger America


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 1, 2022)

Rimna said:


> The defiant soldiers of Snake Island are actually 'alive and well,' says Ukraine's navy | CNN
> 
> 
> The Ukrainian defenders of Snake Island -- who were all feared dead after their defiant response to threats from a Russian warship -- are actually "alive and well," according to the Ukrainian Navy.
> ...



It's best to take anything from an active conflict with a full shaker of salt.  

I don't think either side is probably lying this bad, but remember this clown?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 1, 2022)

TurbidCyno said:


> It's best to take anything from an active conflict with a full shaker of salt.
> 
> I don't think either side is probably lying this bad, but remember this clown?
> 
> View attachment 128282


wooo, comical ali!


----------



## The-Courier (Mar 1, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I used to fear the Russian military.  Like end of Cold War nuke us at any moment fear.
> When I joined the military and they were the last people we wanted to face off with.
> 
> Now it's all grandmas with sunflower seeds dressing telling them they are going to die while in full battle rattle, watching them Uber to gas stations to get fuel for tanks, accidentally discharge a weapon into their battle buddy, or their spec ops done in by a dog retreiving a thrown grenade.  Omg, I wasted 24 years of my life learning markmanship and doing physical training when playing CoD really was likely sufficient.
> ...


It's a leadership problem as much it is a general infantry problem.
I find it hilarious how Russia's been hyping their military up for past few decades, only to have all the PR crash down around them to expose how inept they really are.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 1, 2022)

I've heard about Russian artists getting backlash on FA which is stupid on its face since their own shit government does enough to stress them out during peace time already, but today I've heard governments in Western Europe are basically doing the same thing instead on a state scale, deplatforming Russian artists? what influence do these people have on whether or not a shitbag neo-communist decides to recreate the USSR? surely this useless xenophobia should be called out.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I've heard about Russian artists getting backlash on FA which is stupid on its face since their own shit government does enough to stress them out during peace time already, but today I've heard governments in Western Europe are basically doing the same thing instead on a state scale, deplatforming Russian artists? what influence do these people have on whether or not a shitbag neo-communist decides to recreate the USSR? surely this useless xenophobia should be called out.



This is what economic sanctions are. Economic sanctions hurt normal people; there are people who will starve as a result of the rouble's value collapsing for example- and the Russian administration could have avoided that by not invading Ukraine. 
It is very unfortunate that things have to go this way, because the Russian people deserve better than this.

People considering commissioning artists in Russia or Belarus should check whether their nation has declared limitations on trade, before they commit to a commission. 
If Russian artists on FA wish to continue relationships with Western consumers, I suggest these commissions be produced in exchange for donations to neutral charitable causes such as cancer research.



Flamingo said:


> I don't equate the invasion of another sovereign nation with needlessly partisan topics people are usually slap fighting about.




I feel a very unfortunate reality is that political disunity, disorganisation and disinformation in the West in recent years was actively part of Russia's plans to set up the pretext for an invasion. 

Before 2020, the highest offices of the American administration withheld $400m of military aid from Ukraine in a quid-pro-quo for electoral assistance from president Zelensky (he did not do this). 
The American administration also actively blamed Ukraine for electoral interference in the US, without evidence. 

In the light of what has come to pass, these events have had consequences.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 1, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> This is what economic sanctions are. Economic sanctions hurt normal people; there are people who will starve as a result of the rouble's value collapsing for example- and the Russian administration could have avoided that by not invading Ukraine.
> It is very unfortunate that things have to go this way, because the Russian people deserve better than this.
> 
> People considering commissioning artists in Russia or Belarus should check whether their nation has declared limitations on trade, before they commit to a commission.
> If Russian artists on FA wish to continue relationships with Western consumers, I suggest these commissions be produced in exchange for donations to neutral charitable causes such as cancer research.


That's why sanctions are terrible, even Russian soldiers appeared to be gobsmacked that they were actually invading Ukraine, but they're still the ones that should be fought, not the civilians or creatives who may be dissidents themselves. Perhaps people should bring military assistance instead of just starving random people. Plus the war already costs billions every day for Russia to fight, I'm not sure Putin of all people cares a whole lot if the economy gets slightly poorer because a musician's gig in Berlin gets cancelled.

I'm a bit confused by that last part, is there a clause that allows people to bypass sanctions if they donate to cancer research?


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I've heard about Russian artists getting backlash on FA which is stupid on its face since their own shit government does enough to stress them out during peace time already, but today I've heard governments in Western Europe are basically doing the same thing instead on a state scale, deplatforming Russian artists? what influence do these people have on whether or not a shitbag neo-communist decides to recreate the USSR? surely this useless xenophobia should be called out.


I mean, it's not great for the regular Russian people trying to get by, but we're at an inflection point here where we need to end this conflict as soon as possible. These sanctions put pressure on Putin at all levels of his economy to leave Ukraine and weaken his ability to prosecute this war. Sanctions, however you feel about them, are a relative bloodless solution compared to getting involved in a direct military conflict with Russia at this stage.

It's not xenophobia; it's putting pressure on a government that is aggressively annexing another country, unprovoked.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> That's why sanctions are terrible, even Russian soldiers appeared to be gobsmacked that they were actually invading Ukraine, but they're still the ones that should be fought, not the civilians or creatives who may be dissidents themselves. Perhaps people should bring military assistance instead of just starving random people. Plus the war already costs billions every day for Russia to fight, I'm not sure Putin of all people cares a whole lot if the economy gets slightly poorer because a musician's gig in Berlin gets cancelled.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by that last part, is there a clause that allows people to bypass sanctions if they donate to cancer research?



Nobody wants normal Russians to suffer economically. However, sanctions are infinitely preferable to direct military confrontation with Russia.
It is worth remembering that 20 year old Siberian conscripts being killed on the ground are also normal Russians- and that if economic influences can help restrain hostilities, then those young men may themselves be spared war.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 1, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, it's not great for the regular Russian people trying to get by, but we're at an infection point here where we need to end this conflict as soon as possible. These sanctions put pressure on Putin at all levels of his economy to leave Ukraine and weaken his ability to prosecute this war. Sanctions, however you feel about them, are a relative bloodless solution compared to getting involved in a direct military conflict with Russia at this stage.
> 
> It's not xenophobia; it's putting pressure on a government that is aggressively annexing another country, unprovoked.


We don't know how much in assets Putin is ready to lose to the sunk cost fallacy. His armies need to be physically intimidated into leaving or they won't. Sanctions are only "relatively bloodless" because people starve instead of getting shot, and they're civilians, so this wording sounds pretty out of touch.

And there is definitely an element of xenophobia, there's no way anyone can believe they're hurting Putin or the Russian military by deplatforming a bunch of artists; not to mention we know there's a fair bit of hate, it was exposed by people babbling about conspiracy theories a few years back, perhaps you should add this to your signature https://observer.com/2017/05/james-clapper-russia-xenophobia/


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 1, 2022)

@Frank Gulotta

If the West was actually in direct war with Russia, this would not be *instead* of sanctions- it would be in addition to them.
Sanctions would be actively employed in a war scenario because they undermine the economic and industrial base of your adversary's war machine. They would be even wider reaching and more severe.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I've heard about Russian artists getting backlash on FA which is stupid on its face since their own shit government does enough to stress them out during peace time already, but today I've heard governments in Western Europe are basically doing the same thing instead on a state scale, deplatforming Russian artists? what influence do these people have on whether or not a shitbag neo-communist decides to recreate the USSR? surely this useless xenophobia should be called out.


... the eternal "need" of people to go to far

i agree that people being agressive to russian artrists on a place like fa is counterproductive as the russian gov really would not care if they are unhappy and it won't change anything


----------



## Kumali (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> His armies need to be physically intimidated into leaving or they won't.



This just in from Alexander Vindman: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498373465736368135


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 1, 2022)

Link because audio won't play for some reason with embed
www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t43f2u/welcome_to_russian_army_blyat/


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t43f2u


----------



## BluefoxLongtail (Mar 1, 2022)

I come from a culture damaged by both Soviet and American imperialism. Whereas this is history repeating itself, it is still awful. The Ukrainian people have been stronger than many nations that have suffered this fate before them, and Russia's military was unusually unprepared. Is this what Russia is under Putin? And what does the sheer loss of public opinion and unexpectedly difficult war mean for the Russian country? Ukraine has every capability to maintain their freedom, but on a larger scale than Ukraine, how much could the aftermath change the map of Eastern Europe to the Urals? 

In Central Asia, the collapse of the Soviet Union and the sheer number of refugees caused demographic and political shifts. The European part of the Russian Federation may be heading for a similar fate. The increased assistance from Western allies could really change this war in an extent that could change the world forever. We might be entering a new era. Or perhaps my knowledge and cultural background are assuming too many Cold War realities that are no longer true. Either way, I hope this situation successfully demonstrates the effects of policies of imperialism, as such has not previously been obvious to some countries.

I hope Ukraine can do what many people hope it can: succeed in defending themselves against a force that has no one's benefit in mind. More than that, I hope the Ukrainian culture does not become irreparably shattered, as so many cultures before it have.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> We don't know how much in assets Putin is ready to lose to the sunk cost fallacy. His armies need to be physically intimidated into leaving or they won't. Sanctions are only "relatively bloodless" because people starve instead of getting shot, and they're civilians, so this wording sounds pretty out of touch.
> 
> And there is definitely an element of xenophobia, there's no way anyone can believe they're hurting Putin or the Russian military by deplatforming a bunch of artists; not to mention we know there's a fair bit of hate, it was exposed by people babbling about conspiracy theories a few years back, perhaps you should add this to your signature https://observer.com/2017/05/james-clapper-russia-xenophobia/


Sanctions are relatively bloodless because they are much less likely to lead to nuclear exchanges. There is already military aid being sent to Ukraine, but it can only go so far: things you can hand out to Ukrainian soldiers and expect them to be able to use without additional training. Things that aren't sensitive, because there's a real risk some of that gear will be captured. Getting involved any more than that is incredibly risky. Putin knows he can't actually fight NATO conventionally which only leaves him with a humiliating defeat that threatens his regime, or escalation.


----------



## NuclearConflict (Mar 1, 2022)

I'm just wondering, how many of the weapons we have been sending to Ukraine end up "missing" and turning up in hands of warlords somewhere in the Middle East/Africa.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 1, 2022)

LameFox said:


> Sanctions are relatively bloodless because they are much less likely to lead to nuclear exchanges. There is already military aid being sent to Ukraine, but it can only go so far: things you can hand out to Ukrainian soldiers and expect them to be able to use without additional training. Things that aren't sensitive, because there's a real risk some of that gear will be captured. Getting involved any more than that is incredibly risky. Putin knows he can't actually fight NATO conventionally which only leaves him with a humiliating defeat that threatens his regime, or escalation.


Nobody's going to use nukes, it's bluff and should be called out. All it does is show that Putin's getting very nervous about possibly losing the war.

It's never a good idea to assume your opponent is just a deranged lunatic, or you're just as likely to escalate things yourself.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 1, 2022)

NuclearConflict said:


> I'm just wondering, how many of the weapons we have been sending to Ukraine end up "missing" and turning up in hands of warlords somewhere in the Middle East/Africa.


Given the fact that the current military aid is being supplied the the ukranian government and the regular armed forces it's very unlikely. After the war it's really anyone's guess because we don't know how things will go.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Nobody's going to use nukes, it's bluff and should be called out. All it does is show that Putin's getting very nervous about possibly losing the war.
> 
> It's never a good idea to assume your opponent is just a deranged lunatic, or you're just as likely to escalate things yourself.


Escalation between nuclear powers is inherently risky. We've already had cases in the past where nuclear war was only narrowly averted because people following procedures which would have led to it decided to err on the side of not getting everyone killed. Even if he does mean it as a bluff, direct conflict between NATO and Russia could always go wrong—and if he felt his control of Russia was threatened by losing a war, we don't know how he'd react to that. Dictators don't always get the option of retiring peacefully when their influence slips.


----------



## Lexiand (Mar 1, 2022)

I can't believe the Russian government was dumb enough to invade another nation with out taking to account on how much people on both sides would suffer.


----------



## Nexus Cabler (Mar 1, 2022)

Lexiand said:


> I can't believe the Russian government was dumb enough to invade another nation with out taking to account on how much people on both sides would suffer.


Unfortunately, it's likely that they calculated the potential casualties and saw them as acceptable losses.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 1, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> Unfortunately, it's likely that they calculated the potential casualties and saw them as acceptable losses.


This is generally normal practise before a military operation.


----------



## Judge Spear (Mar 1, 2022)




----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 1, 2022)

Various car manufacturers also stopped exporting cars to them too.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 1, 2022)




----------



## Zara the Hork-Bajir (Mar 1, 2022)

It looks like even the Taliban don't agree with Russia's move








						The Taliban Have Called on Russia to Show Restraint in Ukraine. The Taliban.
					

In an irony-free announcement, the Taliban, who violently seized power in Afghanistan last year, called on Russia and Ukraine to resolve the conflict peacefully.




					www.vice.com
				




Also as much as Putin is a bad actor in this conflict I don't think he reason for invading is that he is just a madman.

IMO this video is probably reasonably accurate as for why Putin is doing what he is.
TLDR: 
-Looking to take possession of oil reserves
-Looking to rebuild USSR
-Looking to stop using Ukraine as a gas bridge for exports
-Probably wants to reopen the water canal that supplies most of Crimea with water (which was closed after Russia took over Crimea)


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 1, 2022)

Lexiand said:


> I can't believe the Russian government was dumb enough to invade another nation with out taking to account on how much people on both sides would suffer.


This was supposed to be a quick operation and there was supposed to be little or no real resistance, based on Crimea and Osettia which welcomed them or provided little resistance.  So, supply lines weren't a thing.  now Russian troops are foraging for food, out of fuel, demoralized by a strong resistance, and using outdated tactics.  The problem is it isn't hurting the people like Putin at the top, because it never does.  Thank you for your service means the same in Russian and English: better you than me.  very rarely is it actual thanks.  usually that only occurs with beers and other survivors.


Frank Gulotta said:


> We don't know how much in assets Putin is ready to lose to the sunk cost fallacy. His armies need to be physically intimidated into leaving or they won't. Sanctions are only "relatively bloodless" because people starve instead of getting shot, and they're civilians, so this wording sounds pretty out of touch.
> 
> And there is definitely an element of xenophobia, there's no way anyone can believe they're hurting Putin or the Russian military by deplatforming a bunch of artists; not to mention we know there's a fair bit of hate, it was exposed by people babbling about conspiracy theories a few years back, perhaps you should add this to your signature https://observer.com/2017/05/james-clapper-russia-xenophobia/


I would be surprised if the were deplatformed by FA-  several are now lost connections.  FA is a very underground social media, however, it is still social media.  Seeing @rinma, @The_Happiest_Husky, @Parabellum3, in and around Ukraine gives an idea here of how Ukraine is doing.   same for Russian artists I follow.

The civilian side of me feels for both and I don't want anyone to suffer.  But Russia is bread and circuses, very similar to the US.  We can't hurt Putin and his cronies.  We can't take thier food.  But a starving soldier is ineffective.  a starving family will further starve a soldier.  Russia is likely going to look like North Korea.  we starve them enough, we are hoping they achieve the change we can't.  we put boots on ground we are coming in conquerors to the conquered.  we could absolutely end this, but it wouldn't solve the problem.  what we need is Russians taking out Putin and rejoining the world.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 1, 2022)

So far the Russian artists I follow still seem to be able to post on FA—and even take commissions, though I'm not sure by what means or for how long that will be possible. If anyone is banning them from social media it's probably Russia itself. I've been told even for _deviantart_ of all things, they need a VPN to make it work properly.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 1, 2022)

Ukraine is nothing more than a message to West that he's dangerous and needs to be taken serious.  It's his legacy, sure, but it's also about his being left behind when the Iron Curtain fell.

I would call him a James Bond villain, if he was actually any good.  So far he's proven lackluster, terrible, and just pathetic.  open source, he isn't locked in to Swift very much, but now China has North Korea and Russia as anchors and they are like 75% dependemt.

Putin just did a nuclear prep exercise.  Frankly, it's as much a comedy as his invasion.  Respect to the above, but the Black Sea is nearly all NATO.  He needed an excuse and his stupid independence move was rediculous.  Ukraine resistance now means Rostov na Duma (?) the former, guessing still active, naval shipyard is actively surveilled so  He's worried his subs are very exposed and all of his nuclear assets are fully tracked and exposed since Turkey tried to play a stupid coy play to keep Russia happy.


LameFox said:


> So far the Russian artists I follow still seem to be able to post on FA—and even take commissions, though I'm not sure by what means or for how long that will be possible. If anyone is banning them from social media it's probably Russia itself. I've been told even for _deviantart_ of all things, they need a VPN to make it work properly.


The intel in me is giddy.  But FA, dA, Sofurry, it's down a lot.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 1, 2022)

Zara the Hork-Bajir said:


> It looks like even the Taliban don't agree with Russia's move
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He appears to go down towards the path of a Tsarist like regime instead of neo-communism. Putin has this insane ideology that all Slavs are Russian, and that they must all be united as one. He is also a religious man and even the leaders of the Orthodox Church justify his actions. So essentially he wants to reinstate the Russian Empire, not exactly the Soviet Union.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAwQjhxqFwoTCMDs5a2rpvYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAR


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 1, 2022)

BluefoxLongtail said:


> I come from a culture damaged by both Soviet and American imperialism.


Hmm.... I'm a little puzzled with your statement.... what's the difference between American and Russian imperialism to you? Tell me there is some. There must be.


BluefoxLongtail said:


> The European part of the Russian Federation may be heading for a similar fate. The increased assistance from Western allies could really change this war in an extent that could change the world forever.


Well, yeah..... it could spiral into World War III. I don't think anyone wants that bro.... (as much as many people who may sympathize with the Ukraninan situation). There's many out there who will say that they don't think their nation should necessarily want to put some of their soldiers in harms way for yet another conflict.

But then again, many of us did this with Iraq; so it wouldn't surprise me (personally) if some of us yanks might help out in some way.... the very one's your calling imperialist right now. ☺

Help of any kind shouldn't be sneezed at in any case.


----------



## BluefoxLongtail (Mar 1, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm.... I'm a little puzzled with your statement.... what's the difference between American and Russian imperialism to you? Tell me there is some. There must be.


Both are destructive and destroy cultures. The Soviets' influence resulted in nationalization of natural resources and a slow destruction of diversity nationwide, tending toward favouriting well-off ethnic groups. An American puppet government (starting in 1953) resulted in radical secularization and the making of Tehran into a "poster child" city. Neither of them had a want to maintain culture or peace, and both wanted the country to be too unstable to progress. They got their want in 1979, and then we got another unstable crazed government (that I must note, I do _not _support), but at least not a foreign one...well, not openly foreign at least.

That being said, my point was just that this entire breed of foreign policy just results in issues. Iran is one outcome, Afghanistan is another, Ukraine is another. People only suffer when large countries want to push around smaller ones.

Edit: I just realized I didn't address the question directly. Sorry about that. ^^ To put it more shortly and clearly, Soviet imperialism resulted in preferences of one dominant culture, American imperialism resulted in the destruction of most native cultures. Both are bad. Neither country should really be out and about and pretending they know what's best.



Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well, yeah..... it could spiral into World War III. I don't think anyone wants that bro.... (as much as many people who may sympathize with the Ukraninan situation). There's many out there who will say that they don't think their nation should necessarily want to put some of their soldiers in harms way for yet another conflict.
> 
> But then again, many of us did this with Iraq; so it wouldn't surprise me (personally) if some of us yanks might help out in some way.... the very one's your calling imperialist right now. ☺
> 
> Help of any kind shouldn't be sneezed at in any case.


Oh, I'm definitely not speaking in favour of an all out world war, nor am I saying Russian or American policies on the situation are better or worse. I was just making some observations in the context of what I know about the past in places where both of these governments had power. i.e. It _could_ happen. And now I feel I need to state explicitly, I _really_ don't want it to happen, but it has before.

Also, I don't think these ideas of imperialism are general. I genuinely believe most Americans and Russians never want to be involved in what their government insists on doing. Or at least I hope. ^^ People are inherently good and caring. Power and influence simply corrupts them.


----------



## лОРИк (Mar 1, 2022)




----------



## Regret (Mar 1, 2022)

Oh, there is a war going on.  Haven’t heard about that yet.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 1, 2022)

Regret said:


> Oh, there is a war going on.  Haven’t heard about that yet.


It's been 6 days.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 1, 2022)




----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 1, 2022)

Adidas ended their relationship with the Russian soccer team. That will hit them very hard.


----------



## Fcomega121 (Mar 1, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Adidas ended their relationship with the Russian soccer team. That will hit them very hard.


(missed opportunity to say "that will Kick them very hard")


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 1, 2022)

I just want this all to end.  It's pretty bad when ISIS and the Taliban look at you, look at each other, everyone sees Putin and  the terrorists point to Putin and say, "Ok, that guy has got to go..."


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 1, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I just want this all to end.  It's pretty bad when ISIS and the Taliban look at you, look at each other, everyone sees Putin and  the terrorists point to Putin and say, "Ok, that guy has got to go..."


Pretty sure the Taliban also said they'd stop mistreating women too. (It hasn't happened yet, it's all a farce)


----------



## Simo (Mar 2, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Adidas ended their relationship with the Russian soccer team. That will hit them very hard.


 Not to mention the Gopniks; they always seem to wear Adidas!


----------



## Skittles (Mar 2, 2022)

No more Gopniks with their Russian hard bass. I am not going to complain.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 2, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Pretty sure the Taliban also said they'd stop mistreating women too. (It hasn't happened yet, it's all a farce)


Former Mujahideen or their children is my guess and hate is too weak a word for their views on Russians and Chechyen.  I wouldn't be surprised with Chechnyans officers heading to Ukraine if a few disappeared.

We are still surprised here at what is going on.  Ukraine has just become a Russian meat grinder.  Lukachenko had no good generals to begin with and I think most of them are avoiding the conflict.  Russia sent in top assets and they're gone now.

If it weren't for the possibility of a nuclear confrontation, they would be a total joke at this point.  Unfortunately, we can't do anything but watch.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 2, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> He is also a religious man and even the leaders of the Orthodox Church justify his actions.


 A slight correction. He only has the Russian Orthodox church in his pocket. The Russian Church broke with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy in 2018 after the Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to the Orthodox church in Ukraine making it not have to answer to the Patriarch of Moscow.








						2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 2, 2022)

Russia is now considered as a second North Korea, that is a Chinese satellite/bulwark coutry.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 2, 2022)

This makes it more like Ace Combat shit and I love it.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 2, 2022)




----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 2, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> This makes it more like Ace Combat shit and I love it.


Its crazy seeing a war hero arise in the modern age. Our grandkids are going to be looking at this guy like how we look at all the ww1 and ww2 aces.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 2, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Its crazy seeing a war hero arise in the modern age. Our grandkids are going to be looking at this guy like how we look at all the ww1 and ww2 aces.


True...


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 2, 2022)

https://www.nationalreview.com/corn...hina-naturally-shared-that-intel-with-russia/ Oh For fuck's sake. This guy's a genius isn't he. That's gonna help.


LameFox said:


> Escalation between nuclear powers is inherently risky. We've already had cases in the past where nuclear war was only narrowly averted because people following procedures which would have led to it decided to err on the side of not getting everyone killed. Even if he does mean it as a bluff, direct conflict between NATO and Russia could always go wrong—and if he felt his control of Russia was threatened by losing a war, we don't know how he'd react to that. Dictators don't always get the option of retiring peacefully when their influence slips.


What's likely to make Putin believe the war's threatening his power is oligarchs deciding they don't like the economic crash, so I would say the sanctions strategy is at least as likely to lead to this, at least if it remains serious (which is not even a given).


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 2, 2022)

I am not sure exactly what you are proposing instead of sanctions, @Frank Gulotta 

Being concerned so much with things like whether people choose to commission Russian artists, and your view that state-wide sanctions are similar to 'de-platforming'...
well, under the current circumstances it seems a little bit back-to-front, considering the life and death situations people are facing in Eastern Europe right now.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 2, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I am not sure exactly what you are proposing instead of sanctions, @Frank Gulotta
> 
> Being concerned so much with things like whether people choose to commission Russian artists, and your view that state-wide sanctions are similar to 'de-platforming'...
> well, under the current circumstances it seems a little bit back-to-front, considering the life and death situations people are facing in Eastern Europe right now.


Armed intervention, so Ukraine doesn't fall before Russia runs out of money


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 2, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Armed intervention,


That would start WW3 and cause nuclear holocaust. We would all die.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 2, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> That would start WW3 and cause nuclear holocaust. We would all die.



There is also _no possible world_ in which we would fight earth's second biggest military and continue having an open trading relationship with them.


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 2, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Armed intervention, so Ukraine doesn't fall before Russia runs out of money



Nobody can get involved directly, without causing a larger conflict,  but I'm wondering if anyone will "rent out"  units a'la the Flying Tigers in WW2, or the Kosciuszko Squadron in the Polish-Soviet War.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 2, 2022)

BluefoxLongtail said:


> Both are destructive and destroy cultures. The Soviets' influence resulted in nationalization of natural resources and a slow destruction of diversity nationwide, tending toward favouriting well-off ethnic groups. An American puppet government (starting in 1953) resulted in radical secularization and the making of Tehran into a "poster child" city. Neither of them had a want to maintain culture or peace, and both wanted the country to be too unstable to progress. They got their want in 1979, and then we got another unstable crazed government (that I must note, I do _not _support), but at least not a foreign one...well, not openly foreign at least.
> 
> That being said, my point was just that this entire breed of foreign policy just results in issues. Iran is one outcome, Afghanistan is another, Ukraine is another. People only suffer when large countries want to push around smaller ones.
> 
> ...



I do think it's important to point that out. We've (The US) had our own adventures overseas, mostly in the Middle East. In my opinion, most of them were pointless and only served to hamper us and more so them. Probably the only silver lining is that we tried to promote democracy on occasion, but things like that are quickly lost with forceful occupation. Of course, just personally speaking, but I'm more condemning of an autocratic country invading a democratic one.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 2, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Armed intervention, so Ukraine doesn't fall before Russia runs out of money


Thing is the Russian army is so bad right now that it's pissing off Putin and making do more irrational decisions. Just one small screw up or miscalculation will make him want to use nukes as a form of vengeance.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 2, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> https://www.nationalreview.com/corn...hina-naturally-shared-that-intel-with-russia/ Oh For fuck's sake. This guy's a genius isn't he. That's gonna help.
> 
> What's likely to make Putin believe the war's threatening his power is oligarchs deciding they don't like the economic crash, so I would say the sanctions strategy is at least as likely to lead to this, at least if it remains serious (which is not even a given).


I don't know what exactly you are imagining here but I doubt an internal threat would be anything like as overt, or as obviously unwinnable, as facing NATO forces in conventional war.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 2, 2022)

BluefoxLongtail said:


> Both are destructive and destroy cultures. The Soviets' influence resulted in nationalization of natural resources and a slow destruction of diversity nationwide, tending toward favouriting well-off ethnic groups. An American puppet government (starting in 1953) resulted in radical secularization and the making of Tehran into a "poster child" city. Neither of them had a want to maintain culture or peace, and both wanted the country to be too unstable to progress. They got their want in 1979, and then we got another unstable crazed government (that I must note, I do _not _support), but at least not a foreign one...well, not openly foreign at least.
> 
> That being said, my point was just that this entire breed of foreign policy just results in issues. Iran is one outcome, Afghanistan is another, Ukraine is another. People only suffer when large countries want to push around smaller ones.


Hmm...... well, thank you for answering my questions. I'm a little puzzled however when you state that: _"this entire breed of foreign policy just results in issues". Iran is one outcome, Afghanistan is another, Ukraine is another. People only suffer when large countries want to push around smaller ones"_.

I propose a hypothetical scenario to you then, (at least in regards to the United States). Suppose - U.S. interventions in these smaller countries never happened, and we had sort of a "limp-wristed" foreign policy, a lot like the E.U. has these days☺ where: it's largely a "hands off" approach to intervene, unless absolutely necesary?

Would it be okay, for places like Iraq - (which we overthrew Saddam), Afghanistan - (where we captured Bin Laden), Ukraine - (where we helped them stabilize themselves post-Soviet rule), and even places like Grenada - (helping them recover from a dictatorship) or South Korea - (with their rivals in the North, which they're technically still at war with), to have _all of these countries_ ---- basically fend for themselves, and have no U.S. interventions whatsoever to occur there?

Germany, Isreal, and Japan are other excellent examples.... where: after World War II, larger countries like the U.S. intervened, installed "puppet governments" there for awhile, and in turn - eventually helped them to create the pro-Western democracies they are today.

Nearly all of the cultural and historical factors in these countries were (and still are) maintained in some way, in spite of the much larger "foreign interventions" on their lands. And so...... wouldn't you agree that all of those interventions were still a good thing? Or not?

If the answer to that is yes....... than - others (like me) could argue that some of your statements (above) are a bit incorrect..... and that the United States may indeed _"know what's best"_ for the larger world at times..... as pro-western democracies are a good thing for just about everybody..... right?

And in the case of Ukraine..... probably even more so. I mean.... wouldn't you agree - that it'd be a good thing for the E.U. and the U.S. to intervene there in some way?

Personally, I think so..... as it could be argued that a pro-Western Ukranian government would be a good thing for just about everybody, (and this is especially true for the citizens there themselves)..... and perhaps someday: could be a card carrying member of the E.U. that may even serve as a regional "counter-balance" to the Russian govenment.

Nearly all of us would benefit at that point, if a larger force intervened. And so, (based on my examples above) - it could be stated that U.S. interventions in smaller countries is beneficial often times...... where the postives outweigh any potential negatives..... right?


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 2, 2022)

Due to some latest reports putin allegedly plans to reestablish Janukovič as their puppet regime leader.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 2, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I don't know what exactly you are imagining here but I doubt an internal threat would be anything like as overt, or as obviously unwinnable, as facing NATO forces in conventional war.


Why not, a coup ended Gorbachev's rule of the USSR. And internal threats will always come much sooner than external threats if you're already invading a country and it's the reason why everyone's mad at you to begin with. Unless you're suggesting that NATO is trigger-happy with nukes and could escalate it to that point themselves.


TurbidCyno said:


> Nobody can get involved directly, without causing a larger conflict,  but I'm wondering if anyone will "rent out"  units a'la the Flying Tigers in WW2, or the Kosciuszko Squadron in the Polish-Soviet War.


If Ukraine falls, the conflict WILL get bigger, except instead of only involving Europe and some NATO friends, it'll likely spread to other continents as China's watching and waiting to see if the West's too distracted to prevent an invasion of Taiwan. If the war's ended soon enough (with boots on the ground would be the better option) there are chances to stop it before it gets to that point. One of the reasons why Putin thought it was appropriate is because he saw Brandon's shitty handling of Afghanistan withdrawal and thought like everybody else "this guy's a joke, the moment is right for this". He saw weakness and we keep showing him more weakness.


Baron Tredegar said:


> That would start WW3 and cause nuclear holocaust. We would all die.


I don't think so. It's the same thing when talking about North Korea and people seem to think Kim Jong Un's an idiot or a crazy person. Nukes are bluff most likely. And again if Putin's crazy enough to use nukes, who's to say the thoughts and prayers level of support we provide to Ukraine wouldn't become enough if the war lasts just a few days too much?


Parabellum3 said:


> Thing is the Russian army is so bad right now that it's pissing off Putin and making do more irrational decisions. Just one small screw up or miscalculation will make him want to use nukes as a form of vengeance.


I don't know what decisions you think are irrational, but maybe they're not. Nobody here is in the affairs of the Russian military command.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 2, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I don't think so. It's the same thing when talking about North Korea and people seem to think Kim Jong Un's an idiot or a crazy person. Nukes are bluff most likely. And again if Putin's crazy enough to use nukes, who's to say the thoughts and prayers level of support we provide to Ukraine wouldn't become enough if the war lasts just a few days too much?



There are tactical as well as strategic nukes - if NATO enters an _actual _war with Russia by supporting Ukraine with direct military action, tactical nuclear weapons are too cost effective to pass up by both sides.

On topic of China and Taiwan - to launch an effective and successful amphibious invasion of a well-armed island fighting for its survival, the chinese would require a _significant _build up of both naval and ground forces - potentially taking weeks under ideal circumstances, and months under less-than-ideal ones. So while this is a latent theat, it's not an imminent one.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 2, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Why not, a coup ended Gorbachev's rule of the USSR. And internal threats will always come much sooner than external threats if you're already invading a country and it's the reason why everyone's mad at you to begin with. Unless you're suggesting that NATO is trigger-happy with nukes and could escalate it to that point themselves.



I did not say it was unlikely I said it would be less overt and less obviously unwinnable. A coup in my view is probably one of the safer outcomes that doesn't rely on him randomly dropping dead of natural causes. His own people betraying him if they're able to pull it off unexpectedly may even be able to deny him the option of using nuclear weapons if he was so inclined.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 2, 2022)

Can we agree Sergey Lavrov is Moscow Ali?

We go into a briefing and come out like we saw a comedy show.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 2, 2022)

I don't know if it's just me but I am seeing a big number of Arab and Indian accounts backing Russia, are these all Russian generated or what?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 2, 2022)

Video:


----------



## NuclearConflict (Mar 2, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> I don't know if it's just me but I am seeing a big number of Arab and Indian accounts backing Russia, are these all Russian generated or what?


----------



## ben909 (Mar 2, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Video:



seems a bit odd that it was safe to film


----------



## LameFox (Mar 2, 2022)

I don't think lack of safety has been stopping people from filming, so far.


----------



## Judge Spear (Mar 2, 2022)

:/


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 2, 2022)

NuclearConflict said:


> View attachment 128338


You put this because you really don't know?


----------



## NuclearConflict (Mar 2, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> You put this because you really don't know?


Could be bots, could be real people, could be trolls. War always has its supporters, no matter how awful the situation is. Don't forget, Russia still has some "allies with benefits" who support wholeheartedly the invasion.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 2, 2022)

Russia 
Middle East Allies: Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia
Africa: Libya, Algeria, Egypt

So, yeah could be anything.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 2, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Russia
> Middle East Allies: Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia
> Africa: Libya, Algeria, Egypt
> 
> So, yeah could be anything.


Actually Saudi Arabia isn’t an ally at all. They voted to condemn the invasion and before that there was an oil crises between the two.


----------



## Xitheon (Mar 2, 2022)

Just tell me this: is it getting worse or better for the people of Ukraine? Is this going to escalate to include more countries? I'm freaking out a bit.

Also, I'm curious: if Trump was still president, would he have sided with Putin or would Congress not have allowed it?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 2, 2022)

Xitheon said:


> Just tell me this: is it getting worse or better for the people of Ukraine? Is this going to escalate to include more countries? I'm freaking out a bit.
> 
> Also, I'm curious: if Trump was still president, would he have sided with Putin or would Congress not have allowed it?


There's gonna be more death sadly, but I doubt this will escalate

And on Trump, I think he'd have threatened Putin with direct military action if he was still in office. 
I'm not going into more detail for why I think that as I'd like this thread to stay away from the more inflammatory internal US political discussion


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 2, 2022)

Xitheon said:


> Just tell me this: is it getting worse or better for the people of Ukraine? Is this going to escalate to include more countries? I'm freaking out a bit.
> 
> Also, I'm curious: if Trump was still president, would he have sided with Putin or would Congress not have allowed it?



It depends on your perspective. I heard news that Russians now occupy one of the towns as Ukrainian soldiers fled. That doesn't necessarily mean they've won though, especially if reports of how they're exhausting their resources, is true.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 2, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> It depends on your perspective. I heard news that Russians now occupy one of the towns as Ukrainian soldiers fled. That doesn't necessarily mean they've won though, especially if reports of how they're exhausting their resources, is true.


At this point I'd say they can't win lol. They're just terrible with stratagy, as they've proven

Gotta feel sorry for the VDV (the airbourne troops they keep sending in unsupported to get slaughtered). There's even rumor of a mis drop of VDV troops that put them in the black sea


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 2, 2022)

When he comes home, be kind and calm.  The decisions you have to make in combat are unnatural and unfair.  Always be proud of him.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 2, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Putin will likely try to invade Norway or Switzerland


Even Putin's not dumb enough to invade the Swiss
My guess is Finland or one of the Baltic states if he decides to attack another nation


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 2, 2022)

NuclearConflict said:


> Could be bots, could be real people, could be trolls. War always has its supporters, no matter how awful the situation is. Don't forget, Russia still has some "allies with benefits" who support wholeheartedly the invasion.


I put my bets on bots and trolls. I complained to Twitter about it lol.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 2, 2022)

Putin is invading whomever he wants and using his nuclear arsenal as a shield


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 2, 2022)

Switzerland seems highly unlikely, being surrounded by NATO countries, especially as it's in close proximity to some of the strongest NATO members as well. Finland on the other hand is a possibility, but the geography of its border with Russia, especially now with the muddy season coming up would be hell for any armor.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 2, 2022)

TurbidCyno said:


> Switzerland seems highly unlikely, being surrounded by NATO countries, especially as it's in close proximity to some of the strongest NATO members as well


We can also mention that Switzerland's terrain is so beneficial to defense, and they're heavily armed, and and and

Any attack will get bogged down in a matter of hours


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 2, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> My son asked if I was going to war because I pulled out my M4 and M9 to go to the range and took out a preserved uniform.  Respect to your father as it is hard to do that and not know if you're coming back.  My love to you and him.  Stay safe, keep faith, and keep a light.


Thank you very much...


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 2, 2022)

VDV's music vid has been given new lyrics to be more fitting of their combat performance 

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t5cndk
In all seriousness tho, RIP those guys. Every drop has gone badly for them. Their commanders seem to have never heard the basics of usage of airborne troops.
Straight up throwing away lives


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 3, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Video:


Acting like invaders while claiming to be "denazifying", breaking windows, hitting people at random and failing hilariously? the more I look at it the more Putinists have in common with antifa, I wonder if any of them finally realizes they're the baddies


ConorHyena said:


> There are tactical as well as strategic nukes - if NATO enters an _actual _war with Russia by supporting Ukraine with direct military action, tactical nuclear weapons are too cost effective to pass up by both sides.


It's not that cost-effective if you take into account the reputation cost, which goes a lot further than any military expense, it's highly improbable that anyone would do that


ConorHyena said:


> On topic of China and Taiwan - to launch an effective and successful amphibious invasion of a well-armed island fighting for its survival, the chinese would require a _significant _build up of both naval and ground forces - potentially taking weeks under ideal circumstances, and months under less-than-ideal ones. So while this is a latent theat, it's not an imminent one.


Hmmm that's probably why it's so concerning that the "people's liberation army" (hilariously misleading term but that's to be expected) has been conducting multiple drills in the region, flying planes over Taiwan, over the course of the last FEW YEARS


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 3, 2022)

The Russian army act likes an untouchable gang.

  If they really wanted to protest the war, they would drive the hyperbaric missiles and tanks to Red Square and end it all once and for all.


----------



## Thrashy (Mar 3, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> We can also mention that Switzerland's terrain is so beneficial to defense, and they're heavily armed, and and and


As someone from Switzerland, I think this is unlikely. He'd have to go through several NATO countries first, so he'd probably not even reach Switzerland. You probably confuse it with Sweden? ^^
(Russia has violated Swedish airspace, not Swiss airspace. If he'd violated Swiss airspace, he at least had to violate Polish or Danish and German Airspace. Or Hungarian / Austrian airspace.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> It's really Putin, but violating Swiss and Japanese airspace is not making this look good.  It seems more like baiting because someone else to shoot first.  Unfortunately, Putin is looking for an excuse to lauch a nuke and claim retaliation.  So this comes down to the Russian people rising up and revolting on Putin.  Since that's u likely, Putin will likely try to invade Norway or Switzerland znd see if NATO backs down.


I would like to point out, that, for the moment, there is not a single indicator that Putin is planning to invade either Norway, Sweden, Finland (or Switzerland for the matter) - It is not conductive to a tense and stressful situation like this to just speculate 'who Putin will invade next'

In this case - Both Norway and Sweden are fairly well defended and do not share a border (or only a very tiny section in almost impassible terrain) with russia. There has been no troop buildup whatsoever, there has been no buildup of naval forces (required for an amphibious landing) - the russians are currently not in the position where they have the military resources to invade anyone else, so it is *pointless *to panic over potentialy WW3.

Same goes with his nuclear arsenal. Under the logic of MAD (mutually assured destruction), even if he had an 'excuse' to fire, it would still be completely immaterial - we're all sitting on enough weapons to eradicate each other many times over and if he launches a nuclear strike for whatever reason this is still going to be in effect. If Putin was really ready and willing to end the world then he does not need to wait for a pretext - he can simply start. Because it doesn't matter who started it, in the end, if nuclear war happens, everyone dies. If there's one thing consistent with Putin's behaviour it is that he vastly prefers intimidation tactics to actual action - he is simply using the fact that we are afraid of nuclear war against us.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> I would like to point out, that, for the moment, there is not a single indicator that Putin is planning to invade either Norway, Sweden, Finland (or Switzerland for the matter) - It is not conductive to a tense and stressful situation like this to just speculate 'who Putin will invade next'
> 
> In this case - Both Norway and Sweden are fairly well defended and do not share a border (or only a very tiny section in almost impassible terrain) with russia. There has been no troop buildup whatsoever, there has been no buildup of naval forces (required for an amphibious landing) - the russians are currently not in the position where they have the military resources to invade anyone else, so it is *pointless *to panic over potentialy WW3.
> 
> Same goes with his nuclear arsenal. Under the logic of MAD (mutually assured destruction), even if he had an 'excuse' to fire, it would still be completely immaterial - we're all sitting on enough weapons to eradicate each other many times over and if he launches a nuclear strike for whatever reason this is still going to be in effect. If Putin was really ready and willing to end the world then he does not need to wait for a pretext - he can simply start. Because it doesn't matter who started it, in the end, if nuclear war happens, everyone dies. If there's one thing consistent with Putin's behaviour it is that he vastly prefers intimidation tactics to actual action - he is simply using the fact that we are afraid of nuclear war against us.


Yeah, I'm totally confusing my countries.


----------



## Skittles (Mar 3, 2022)

NATO is just waiting. Waiting for Russia to overextend and do something stupid. THEN COMES THE SUCKERPUNCH! But I guess we shall see.


----------



## Skittles (Mar 3, 2022)

On another note. My Ukrainian colleague has been showing me videos of the Ukrainian counter offensive. They are certainly not down and out!! Also the hilarious videos of ordinary citizens stealing and joy riding Russian armour~


----------



## The-Courier (Mar 3, 2022)

Rimmy did a three hour livestream yesterday covering the first week of the war. Definitely worth a watch if you're looking to get up to speed about what's all happening.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 3, 2022)

Skittles said:


> On another note. My Ukrainian colleague has been showing me videos of the Ukrainian counter offensive. They are certainly not down and out!! Also the hilarious videos of ordinary citizens stealing and joy riding Russian armour~


grand theft armor Ukraine


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Same goes with his nuclear arsenal. Under the logic of MAD (mutually assured destruction), even if he had an 'excuse' to fire, it would still be completely immaterial - we're all sitting on enough weapons to eradicate each other many times over and if he launches a nuclear strike for whatever reason this is still going to be in effect. If Putin was really ready and willing to end the world then he does not need to wait for a pretext - he can simply start. Because it doesn't matter who started it, in the end, if nuclear war happens, everyone dies. If there's one thing consistent with Putin's behaviour it is that he vastly prefers intimidation tactics to actual action - he is simply using the fact that we are afraid of nuclear war against us.


Unfortunately: This depends on _where_, exactly, nukes might come into the equation.

People suggesting he'll launch a _first strike_ nuclear attack on a NATO, EU, or so-on nation? That is very much beating drums and unlikely to materialize barring some _very_ "Last thrashes of a mad dictator" developments. There is no situation wherein nukes are launched on either of those that does not end in either nuclear retaliation or an utter discrediting of MAD theory.

Ukraine... as of this moment, is another matter. It still isn't particularly _likely_ (particularly since Russia has more than enough conventional artillery and munitions at its disposal to turn cities into smoking rubble, if so desired), but cannot be _entirely_ ruled out. It would fly in the face of the "We are invading because Ukraine is our brothers and sisters who have been led astray by Western provocateurs" mission statement... but is a wash with "De-nazification" (it's a _bit heavy a response_, but technically doesn't contradict any such goal) and fits _uncomfortably_ well in with establishing Russia as a peer to NATO / somebody who cannot be invaded conventionally (particularly as a willingness to do so would establish that any sort of conventional war is bound to end with the use of 'tactical' nuclear weapons / dirty bombs on Russian soil, should things come down to such).

That said, refer again to "Russia has more than enough conventional artillery" and "establishing Russia as a peer to NATO / somebody who cannot be invaded conventionally": "We will reduce entire cities to smoking rubble" via conventional artillery tends to be _good enough_ for establishing external ("Are you willing to have your cities explosively dropped on their citizens?") and internal ("And how exactly do you plan to occupy us?") military threat, and an escalation to nuclear weaponry seems most probable only if either:
1) Russia's efforts on the ground continue to go poorly / slowly enough that Putin _cannot_ justify their continuation any longer (and considering he still seems to have plans of occupying Ukraine, even _with_ explicitly stated expectation of All The Sanctions, he clearly is willing to invest a _lot_ conventionally)
or
2) He's psychotically determined to push to see _exactly_ how far he can take things and has potentially even planned "Territory that has been reduced to a glass parking lot doesn't need to be occupied"


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 3, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> At this point I'd say they can't win lol. They're just terrible with stratagy, as they've proven
> 
> Gotta feel sorry for the VDV (the airbourne troops they keep sending in unsupported to get slaughtered). There's even rumor of a mis drop of VDV troops that put them in the black sea


As a paratrooper, I can confirm it's incredibly confusing to watch the VDV just throw themselves to oblivion.

Also the 101st aren't paratroopers anymore, nerds.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 3, 2022)

I haven't commented much here for a variety of reasons, but I'll take off my admin hat for a moment and give my personal insight on why you're seeing the VDV basically throwing itself around haphazardly.

Russia doctrine can be summarized as "better to try and die, than not to try at all." Combine that with there's very real indicators that Russia is having a lot of difficulty communicating (they're literally using *single channel, plain text radio traffic at times; I'll explain what that is below), the VDV is attempting to "do their thing" while simultaneously lacking unity of purpose with their other echelons. In short, they're performing contested air insertions and being mauled because no one is doing their part to assist them.

*Typical military radio traffic is frequency hopping, digital. Basically all the radios have to be loaded with a cryptologic key that tells it "send X amount of message on X frequency, and X amount on Y, then shuffle this 9000 times." It makes it very difficult to listen in and effectively encrypts the conversations. The issue is if no one has the same keys or they fucked something up, no one is talking. Single channel, plain text is an open air conversation that anyone with the frequency can just listen in.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

Something worth keeping in mind with a lot of the more hare-brained maneuvers / troop movements: 

One, there seems to have been a _critical, purposeful_ lack of communication on all levels throughout the force. On one hand this is somewhat understandable (you do not prepare tens of thousands of fully-informed troops for a blitz invasion and expect no word to leak out during the weeks / months of preparation)... but on the other it means that many of these troops are operating on schedules that hadn't been updated until days into the invasion, with some not even having schedules at all but "Surprise! Command has passed down, despite all assurances otherwise as recently as 12 hours ago, that we are indeed going to be attacking Ukraine. Right now, in fact". Turns out this lack of communication (compounded when it is not conducted between units too), on top of being utter shit for morale, is also _very problematic_ when trying to create a pseudo-First Rate military. Since part of its whole selling point is being a well-oiled machine that is in constant communication with itself so that both Right and Left Hand know what they're doing and can be where they need to be / not where you don't want them to be.

Two, there's credible evidence to suggest that a lot of the materiel that's been sent at the start is old / outdated material (up to and including basic things such as rations, tires used on wheeled vehicles, and so-on), which has caused its own concerns as while "Outdated material rotting in a garage" is always a concern for militaries (particularly modern ones that can quickly lead to a _lot_ of storage / disposal / replacement costs)... "Vehicles unable to operate off-road for extended periods because the tires will simply shred themselves" causes some _fairly obvious issues_ when a nation's in the middle of its muddy season. And also _further_ doesn't help with morale (since who wants to be the poor bastard who was told just a day ago they're only here for training, is now being told to attack another pseudo-First Rate military, and doing so with rations that expired six years ago mounted on trucks whose only options are 'stick to the road' or 'lose the trucks and everything else they're carrying').



Flamingo said:


> I haven't commented much here for a variety of reasons, but I'll take off my admin hat for a moment and give my personal insight on why you're seeing the VDV basically throwing itself around haphazardly.
> 
> Russia doctrine can be summarized as "better to try and die, than not to try at all." Combine that with there's very real indicators that Russia is having a lot of difficulty communicating (they're literally using *single channel, plain text radio traffic at times; I'll explain what that is below), the VDV is attempting to "do their thing" while simultaneously lacking unity of purpose with their other echelons. In short, they're performing contested air insertions and being mauled because no one is doing their part to assist them.
> 
> *Typical military radio traffic is frequency hopping, digital. Basically all the radios have to be loaded with a cryptologic key that tells it "send X amount of message on X frequency, and X amount on Y, then shuffle this 9000 times a second." It makes it very difficult to listen in and effectively encrypts the conversations. The issue is if no one has the same keys or they fucked something up, no one is talking. Single channel, plain text is an open air conversation that anyone with the frequency can just listen in.


Something that also feeds back into "A First Rate or pseudo-First Rate military needs _extremely_ good communication on multiple levels to function as the well-oiled machine it's intended to". Yes, individual units are intended to have a fair degree of independence / initiative... but if you cannot _convey _the fruits of this that can very well make things _worse_.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 3, 2022)

I'll expound some more.

I and the rest of the Army have been training for the last ten years for this fight. The general consensus on what we've seen the last week is "what the fuck?" You really can't put your finger on any single thing they've done (Russia) that has created this confusing lack of performance. There's a whole lot that has gone very wrong (for Russia), including a very competent and determined Ukrainian resistance (and probably the entire weight of the west's ISR capabilities helping, so near real-time knowledge of where Russian forces are). 

When this is all over, it'll be years of studying to figure out what went wrong for Russia. You can't wrap it all up in "they suck at logistics." There's serious command and control problems, logistics planning problems, failure to follow their own doctrine problems - it's just, an impressively bad bungle.

But don't count them out yet. As much as it feels good to hope Ukraine pulls this off, Russia still very much has the military advantage and, if they can reset and regroup, could push it.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 3, 2022)

Attaman said:


> Something that also feeds back into "A First Rate or pseudo-First Rate military needs _extremely_ good communication on multiple levels to function as the well-oiled machine it's intended to". Yes, individual units are intended to have a fair degree of independence / initiative... but if you cannot _convey _the fruits of this that can very well make things _worse_.


Russian doctrine is very command and control oriented, as in "listen for dad to tell us what to do." NATO follows the American model (or really, early Prussian model) of mission command. The difference is we (the west), issue mission orders and provide commander's intent and then tell subordinate commanders "go." So if dad stops communicating, we at least know what their intent was and can execute accordingly.

OK thank you for coming to by TED Talk.


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 3, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> *Typical military radio traffic is frequency hopping, digital. Basically all the radios have to be loaded with a cryptologic key that tells it "send X amount of message on X frequency, and X amount on Y, then shuffle this 9000 times." It makes it very difficult to listen in and effectively encrypts the conversations. The issue is if no one has the same keys or they fucked something up, no one is talking. Single channel, plain text is an open air conversation that anyone with the frequency can just listen in.



I've seen several lists of Russian frequencies being circulated around the Shortwave and Ham Radio Enthusiast groups. Pretty much anyone with a Single Sideband radio can pick them up. Not sure how accurate they are.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

It looks like they've captured Kherson in about the week of fighting so far, but that seems to be the only major city to fall so far. Though, Mariupol is under a lot of pressure right now. Not sure if it just happens that the Kherson Russian force is more experienced and that gave them an edge, but it'd be the first major gain for the Russians. What's quite confusing is that the Russians didn't really bring the numbers to effectively hold territory, at least it seems like that. Considering the resistance, it'll be rather difficult to keep a hold on the territory for an extended period of time. 

Alot of the current military strategy for Russia seemed to be predicated on Intelligence that the Ukraine was near revolt/breaking and that this invasion would be against incompetent fighters. Seems to be the reason why they brought so little with them, they expected to race through the Ukraine and experience little resistance I think.


----------



## The-Courier (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> It looks like they've captured Kherson in about the week of fighting so far, but that seems to be the only major city to fall so far. Though, Mariupol is under a lot of pressure right now. Not sure if it just happens that the Kherson Russian force is more experienced and that gave them an edge, but it'd be the first major gain for the Russians. What's quite confusing is that the Russians didn't really bring the numbers to effectively hold territory, at least it seems like that. Considering the resistance, it'll be rather difficult to keep a hold on the territory for an extended period of time.
> 
> Alot of the current military strategy for Russia seemed to be predicated on Intelligence that the Ukraine was near revolt/breaking and that this invasion would be against incompetent fighters. Seems to be the reason why they brought so little with them, they expected to race through the Ukraine and experience little resistance I think.


I think what we've been seeing is Russian forces attempting to blaze a path through to Kyiv while ignoring any attempt to try and hold territory. I've seen hilarious reports of Ukrainian forces just going behind Russian lines and fucking logistics up.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

The-Courier said:


> I think what we've been seeing is Russian forces attempting to blaze a path through to Kyiv while ignoring any attempt to try and hold territory. I've seen hilarious reports of Ukrainian forces just going behind Russian lines and fucking logistics up.


They're fucking up two of the most key components of war lol. Their supply lines are getting squeezed pretty badly, and they still can't gain air superiority. Which I mean, if you want to win a war, you obtain air superiority, secure your supply lines and keep your forces well equipped. I don't know why Russia hasn't been using their air force actually. They've been holding back a majority of their jet fighters, if I am not mistaken. Why? Poor communications maybe?


----------



## The-Courier (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> They're fucking up two of the most key components of war lol. Their supply lines are getting squeezed pretty badly, and they still can't gain air superiority. Which I mean, if you want to win a war, you obtain air superiority, secure your supply lines and keep your forces well equipped. I don't know why Russia hasn't been using their air force actually. They've been holding back a majority of their jet fighters, if I am not mistaken. Why? Poor communications maybe?


Could be a myriad of reasons--Ukrainian air defense, lack of air-operable jets, or possibly shitty supply. I'm not sure if Russia has enough parts or fuel to keep jets running around the clock, and if they do it won't be long before they bleed fuel and parts dry, jets are expensive asf to maintain.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> Russian doctrine is very command and control oriented, as in "listen for dad to tell us what to do." NATO follows the American model (or really, early Prussian model) of mission command. The difference is we (the west), issue mission orders and provide commander's intent and then tell subordinate commanders "go." So if dad stops communicating, we at least know what their intent was and can execute accordingly.


This was one of the reasons the western allies were able to screw over Saddam's anti-air during the gulf war so quickly - because the command and control levels were targeted and the iraqi air force had no idea what to do without guidance.


----------



## Furrium (Mar 3, 2022)

I want to tell my opinion on this, especially since I'm from Russia.  Personally, I don't care about war at all.  (Now I’ll say it’s not very nice, but this accurately describes my attitude) I don’t find out what kind of food a person ate and why he has diarrhea, I think with what tool to clean shit from the floor.  I have my own problems and things to do, I need to do an assignment in colloid chemistry, I take a small part in the development of a ceramic alloy for gas turbine engines based on carbides, nitrides, silicides, borides.  Regarding Putin, I will say that I do not like him and in the elections in 2024 (although I do not remember when the elections) I will fully use my suffrage to remove Putin from office, although this will lead nowhere.  But still it is a pity that Europe closes the Iron Curtain.

 Regarding the sanctions, I will say that they are largely useless and otherwise stupid.  I can get used to the current restrictions over time or find an alternative.

 But explain to me why some sanctions are stupid:
 1. Please explain to me, maybe I don’t understand, but why are politics and sports interrelated?  Why are athletes suspended because of the war?
 2. Why were restrictions introduced against Russia in principle?  NATO bombed Yugoslavia, the US invaded Libya, people were dying.  But the US and NATO were punished?  No.  So why is Russia to blame for all the troubles?
 3. Why impose sanctions against cats?  Have Western rulers torn off the thread in their old age?  Do they think the cats won't like it and they will rebel against the authorities?  This only causes laughter.

 You can scold me, insult me, I stopped paying attention to it, but I don’t mind smart criticism.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> I want to tell my opinion on this, especially since I'm from Russia.  Personally, I don't care about war at all.  (Now I’ll say it’s not very nice, but this accurately describes my attitude) I don’t find out what kind of food a person ate and why he has diarrhea, I think with what tool to clean shit from the floor.  I have my own problems and things to do, I need to do an assignment in colloid chemistry, I take a small part in the development of a ceramic alloy for gas turbine engines based on carbides, nitrides, silicides, borides.  Regarding Putin, I will say that I do not like him and in the elections in 2024 (although I do not remember when the elections) I will fully use my suffrage to remove Putin from office, although this will lead nowhere.  But still it is a pity that Europe closes the Iron Curtain.
> 
> Regarding the sanctions, I will say that they are largely useless and otherwise stupid.  I can get used to the current restrictions over time or find an alternative.
> 
> ...



Because cancel culture is apparently foreign policy now.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 3, 2022)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t57i1p

If you don't know what 'cope cages' refers to, that's a joke name that's been given to the grating installed over the turrets of some russian tanks in an attempt to stop Javelins.
(It doesn't work)


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> But explain to me why some sanctions are stupid:
> 1. Please explain to me, maybe I don’t understand, but why are politics and sports interrelated?  Why are athletes suspended because of the war?
> 2. Why were restrictions introduced against Russia in principle?  NATO bombed Yugoslavia, the US invaded Libya, people were dying.  But the US and NATO were punished?  No.  So why is Russia to blame for all the troubles?
> 3. Why impose sanctions against cats?  Have Western rulers torn off the thread in their old age?  Do they think the cats won't like it and they will rebel against the authorities?  This only causes laughter.
> ...



1. Sports have often been used by dictators to promote themselves/their ideology, especially by authoritarians. Examples for this would be the entire doping scandal the russians had, or the chinese olympic games. Going back into the past, even Adolf Hitler has done this to some effect. Plus, people don't want to play with the country that is responsible for the worst war of agression since world war II.

2. Because Russia invaded a sovereign, democratic country in an unparalleled act of agression - Comparing yugoslavia (AFAIK there was a UN mandate) and Lybia (Which was again, a UN-mandated no fly zone) to what is currently happening is inadequate  - a more reasonable comparison would be the germans' attack on Poland during WWII

3. Sanctions are designed to put pressure on the russian economy and state, and while cats may not be able to rebel, their breeders most certainly can.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 3, 2022)

When athletes are competing on behalf of their country it kinda follows that they are treated as representatives of their country. Not sure if it works in all cases but I know in the past some have got around this by competing for a different nation instead.


----------



## Furrium (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> 1. Sports have often been used by dictators to promote themselves/their ideology, especially by authoritarians. Examples for this would be the entire doping scandal the russians had, or the chinese olympic games. Going back into the past, even Adolf Hitler has done this to some effect. Plus, people don't want to play with the country that is responsible for the worst war of agression since world war II.
> 
> 2. Because Russia invaded a sovereign, democratic country in an unparalleled act of agression - Comparing yugoslavia (AFAIK there was a UN mandate) and Lybia (Which was again, a UN-mandated no fly zone) to what is currently happening is inadequate  - a more reasonable comparison would be the germans' attack on Poland during WWII
> 
> 3. Sanctions are designed to put pressure on the russian economy and state, and while cats may not be able to rebel, their breeders most certainly can.


Are you saying it's legal to invade Libya and bomb Yugoslavia?  Killing people, destroying their homes, leaving people as refugees is that right?  Libya and Yugoslavia were also sovereign countries, but why invade them?


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 3, 2022)

I think I missed where Conor said killing people, destroying homes, and creating a refugee crisis was right.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> Are you saying it's legal to invade Libya and bomb Yugoslavia?  Killing people, destroying their homes, leaving people as refugees is that right?  Libya and Yugoslavia were also sovereign countries, but why invade them?


The UN(remember, every country on this earth is a UN member) agreed that in this case, on a limited mandate, agreed that it was legal to prevent something worse (and as it was indicated in srebrenica, the UN mandate was not nearly robust enough to actually prevent massacres like this)

War is always evil, but sometimes, it can be the lesser of two evils. 

However comparing fairly limited campaigns like Yugoslavia and Libya (which, AFAIK was limited to aerial bombardments only, no boots on the ground) to an all out war of agression on a peaceful, sovereign neighbour is definitly not proportional.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 3, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> I think I missed where Conor said killing people, destroying homes, and creating a refugee crisis was right.


I missed it too.

I originally considered playing the a-hole to Conor to get an explanation of what's so special about a UN mandate that justified stepping in on Yugoslavia and Libya, but didn't think it would come off right.  I now realize that MAYBE I should have.

EDIT: Aaaand Conor and I answered at the same time.  Oh well.  Conor, I actually have a guess on Libya, but act as if I don't.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> Are you saying it's legal to invade Libya and bomb Yugoslavia?  Killing people, destroying their homes, leaving people as refugees is that right?  Libya and Yugoslavia were also sovereign countries, but why invade them?


You kinda share the same rhetoric as these Twitter bots I mentioned ngl.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Because cancel culture is apparently foreign policy now.



Sporting boycotts were an important part of the world's opposition to apartheid South Africa, Ramjet; these decisions are not without precedent.



Furrium said:


> Are you saying it's legal to invade Libya and bomb Yugoslavia?  Killing people, destroying their homes, leaving people as refugees is that right?  Libya and Yugoslavia were also sovereign countries, but why invade them?



During the Bosnian war militant forces began systematic ethnic cleansing of Bosniak Muslims.
Military intervention in that war did bring about negotiation that ultimately lead to peace. 








						Bosnian genocide - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Russia's Vladimir Putin has repeatedly, and falsely, claimed there is a genocide against ethnic Russians in Ukraine, lead by neo-nazis, in order to justify military intervention in Ukraine and make it look like it is reasonable. 
How media in Russia are allowed to report this invasion is tightly regulated- even using the word 'invasion' is prohibited.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> I want to tell my opinion on this, especially since I'm from Russia.  Personally, I don't care about war at all.  (Now I’ll say it’s not very nice, but this accurately describes my attitude) I don’t find out what kind of food a person ate and why he has diarrhea, I think with what tool to clean shit from the floor.  I have my own problems and things to do, I need to do an assignment in colloid chemistry, I take a small part in the development of a ceramic alloy for gas turbine engines based on carbides, nitrides, silicides, borides.  Regarding Putin, I will say that I do not like him and in the elections in 2024 (although I do not remember when the elections) I will fully use my suffrage to remove Putin from office, although this will lead nowhere.  But still it is a pity that Europe closes the Iron Curtain.
> 
> Regarding the sanctions, I will say that they are largely useless and otherwise stupid.  I can get used to the current restrictions over time or find an alternative.
> 
> ...


I actually agree to some extent that the US and UN bear some guilt for similar situations. I'd argue the instance of war crimes are a bit lesser, and generally UN/US troops don't move to occupy, or extend territory. But, in principle, I think the UN/Us are to an extent guilty of invading. Just maybe slightly less egregious? It's not by a huge amount. Imo

Conor covered some of your concerns, but to add some other context but a big part of why Russia is getting as much push-back as it is, is due to the strong perception that it really is not much of a functioning democracy. All the protesters getting arrested IE, Putin's political opponents dying or being sent to prison, how long he's been in office for. (20 years IIRC). So he is seen as authoritarian but most of the West. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you, of course. So it is perceived largely as an autocratic nation attempting to conquer a democratic one. I  think this is part of the reasoning for the condemnation. It's ideological.

Putin, at least as far as I know, has the motivations of securing the Ukraine to make defending his territories more geographically easy. Additionally the Ukraine is rich in oil reserves and shale coal. So it'd boost his economy considerably. I recall he was a KGB agent and felt very strongly/patriotically about Soviet Russia. Some of his motivations seem to include wanting to restore some of the Soviet union. Which leans more towards expansionist in intent as seen by some of the in West. I think the real difference here is the perceived intent, as to why the UN came to their decisions.

Of course, I'm not trying to persuade you one way or the other. Nor am I motivated to give the US/UN a pass for their own respective shittyness. I just wanted to give some context. I trust you can come to your own conclusions.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I actually agree to some extent that the US and UN bear some guilt for similar situations. I'd argue the instance of war crimes are a bit lesser, and generally UN/US troops don't move to occupy, or extend territory. But, in principle, I think the UN/Us are to an extent guilty of invading.


The US / UN / NATO (EU too, for that matter) have basically spent the last decade bending over backwards to try and satisfy Putin in regards to Ukraine and similar neighboring countries. Like, when Putin pivots on Russia's stance of "Ukraine can freely join NATO if it so desires" to "Ukraine cannot join" to "Every signatory post-'97 is illegitimate", outright declares that Ukraine's independence was a mistake and cites early-20th century a state to return to (a state which, for ones might remember, included lovely things like Holodomor), disregards treaties that were made _in Russia's favor_ in efforts to cease conflicts in Ukraine for - by Putin's own explicit admission - because "Ukraine has always been Russian and those agreements were a slap in our face"...

There's geo-political crisis' that can be pinned on NATO / the US / et al sticking a pipe in their own bike's wheels. Ukraine is not one of them. It's pretty much exclusively the result of a small but _very_ loud / aggressive population of pro-Russian nationalists within Ukraine seeking to rejoin, and Putin seeking to ride fumes of the legacy of a past glorious empire. Which... anyone familiar with authoritarian governments shouldn't be particularly surprised about, as "I- I mean, _We_ have been denied greatness by _those dastardly outsiders_, we must return to our former glory and all those who argue otherwise are foreign provocateurs" is pretty par the course. What's surprised people about Ukraine is less that Russia did _something_ (people kind of expected an attempt to annex Donbas and whatnot, maybe back a coup in Ukraine general) so much as them deciding "We're going for all of Ukraine, and if you want us to stop there you'd better not get involved". With a side of "Also no guarantee we'll stop there even then. Everything given up post-Lenin was a mistake".


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

I'm just going to post that all of the memes and celebratory images of destroyed military equipment are incredibly odious. 

They rob this discussion of the seriousness it deserves, and they give the incorrect impression that death should be celebrated. :\


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Attaman said:


> The US / UN / NATO (EU too, for that matter) have basically spent the last decade bending over backwards to try and satisfy Putin in regards to Ukraine and similar neighboring countries. Like, when Putin pivots on Russia's stance of "Ukraine can freely join NATO if it so desires" to "Ukraine cannot join" to "Every signatory post-'97 is illegitimate", outright declares that Ukraine's independence was a mistake and cites early-20th century a state to return to (a state which, for ones might remember, included lovely things like Holodomor), disregards treaties that were made _in Russia's favor_ in efforts to cease conflicts in Ukraine for - by Putin's own explicit admission - because "Ukraine has always been Russian and those agreements were a slap in our face"...
> 
> There's geo-political crisis' that can be pinned on NATO / the US / et al sticking a pipe in their own bike's wheels. Ukraine is not one of them. It's pretty much exclusively the result of a small but _very_ loud / aggressive population of pro-Russian nationalists within Ukraine seeking to rejoin, and Putin seeking to ride fumes of the legacy of a past glorious empire. Which... anyone familiar with authoritarian governments shouldn't be particularly surprised about, as "I- I mean, _We_ have been denied greatness by _those dastardly outsiders_, we must return to our former glory and all those who argue otherwise are foreign provocateurs" is pretty par the course. What's surprised people about Ukraine is less that Russia did _something_ (people kind of expected an attempt to annex Donbas and whatnot, maybe back a coup in Ukraine general) so much as them deciding "We're going for all of Ukraine, and if you want us to stop there you'd better not get involved". With a side of "Also no guarantee we'll stop there even then. Everything given up post-Lenin was a mistake".



Well, keep in mind, Putin has remarked very blatantly that because the Un/Us whatever has intervened so frequently overseas, that he often points out that if the Un/Us can do that, why can't he do it? That was something he said himself, very often in fact. Of course, it doesn't change my condemnation for his actions. However, it brings to light that Putin finds the balance of power unfair, that Us/Un/Nato what have you can invade but he cannot. He's brought this up frequently, that the Western Powers can do it but he can't. So just generally speaking we do bear some responsibility for setting a bad precedent. That is of course, just my take on it, I think we could have been a hell of a lot less liberal with how often the Western Powers as it were, intervened, especially in situations like Libya and Yugoslavia

I hold the opinion Russia's democracy is a very cheap cloak, it hardly obscure the true nature of the who actually holds power. Doesn't take a genius to deduce that Putin is calling all the shots, so naturally I'll take the evil of the Un/Nato over him. But I don't want to make it out like we didn't help make this situation.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm just going to post that all of the memes and celebratory images of destroyed military equipment are incredibly odious.
> 
> They rob this discussion of the seriousness it deserves, and they give the incorrect impression that death should be celebrated. :\


I concur with this



KimberVaile said:


> Well, keep in mind, Putin has remarked very blatantly that because the Un/Us whatever has intervened so frequently overseas, that he often points out that if the Un/Us can do that, why can't he do it? That was something he said himself, very often in fact.



I'd definitly take the time to differentiate between the UN (which is as close to a world government as we can get) and the US (which is an individual, singular country) especially when it comes to this topic. Military action backed by a UN mandate has siginficantly more legitimisation than if it were only the americans doing things.

Additionally - it's not like he hasn't been invading. Chechnya, Georgia and Syria happend in the last 15 years.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> I concur with this
> 
> 
> 
> I'd definitly take the time to differentiate between the UN (which is as close to a world government as we can get) and the US (which is an individual, singular country) especially when it comes to this topic. Military action backed by a UN mandate has siginficantly more legitimisation than if it were only the americans doing things.


The reason I lump them together so often is that American military intervention is often backed by the UN. Is it always the case? No, but it happens often.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

It is also worth reflecting that Vladimir Putin's arguments are sophistry.

The justification has not lead him to his conclusion that Russia must annex territory; his plans to expand a Russian empire already existed and he is in search of *any *justification that will do.

Whether those justifications make any sense is immaterial.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> It is also worth reflecting that Vladimir Putin's arguments are sophistry.
> 
> The justification has not lead him to his conclusion that Russia must annex territory; his plans to expand a Russian empire already existed and he is in search of *any *justification that will do.
> 
> Whether those justifications make any sense is immaterial.


It's clear he finds the balance of power unfair. Whether the argument is right or not, isn't important as much as how he personally feels, because he is the sole seat of power in Russia. His motives as it were, are a combination many things, which I've discussed in detail. It is not one singular thing. Actions like this rarely are.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> It's clear he finds the balance of pwoer unfair. Whether the argument is right or not, isn't important as much as how he personally feels, because he is the sole seat of power. His motives as it were, are a combination many things, which I've discussed in detail. It is not one singular thing. Actions like this rarely are.


The only balance of power this man would find 'fair' would be his domination of the world, Kimber.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> The only balance of power this man would find 'fair' would be his domination of the world, Kimber.


Such are the feelings of an autocrat, but we have to deal with people like that all over the world. It's just an unfortunate reality. In ideal world most autocrtic leaders would be sent to prison. But, we are stuck in an imperfect world where we have to engage with them.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Well, keep in mind, Putin has remarked very blatantly that because the Un/Us whatever has intervened so frequently overseas,


In addition to what Conor said above, you must also keep in mind that a lot of these expenditures by the US (and, to a degree, the UK / France) were _not really approved of_ by much the rest of the UN, EU, or so-on at large.


KimberVaile said:


> However, it brings to light that Putin finds the balance of power unfair, that Us/Un/Nato what have you can invade but he cannot.


I think a key point of difference is that these invasions generally were not with the _outright explicit_ justification that "Actually Imperialism and the Empire was good, they should never have been given 'freedom' anyways, and anyone who says we don't belong there is either a Nazi or foreign provocateur who must be [REDACTED] so that our brothers can return our Empire to its former glory".

Intervention with the affairs of foreign nations via toppling their governments to install more favorable ones is bad. Intervention with the affairs of foreign nations because _you refuse to recognize them as their own nation in the first place_ and _intend to use them explicitly to split in the eye of decades of international treaties_ is another issue entirely.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Such is the feelings of an autocrat, but we have to deal with people like that all over the world. It's just an unfortunate reality.


Is the reason we invest in guns and big boomsticks and the like, to make sure that if any of these people finally act out their feelings they'll face very painful consequences.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Attaman said:


> In addition to what Conor said above, you must also keep in mind that a lot of these expenditures by the US (and, to a degree, the UK / France) were _not really approved of_ by much the rest of the UN, EU, or so-on at large.
> 
> I think a key point of difference is that these invasions generally were not with the _outright explicit_ justification that "Actually Imperialism and the Empire was good, they should never have been given 'freedom' anyways, and anyone who says we don't belong there is either a Nazi or foreign provocateur who must be [REDACTED] so that our brothers can return our Empire to its former glory".
> 
> Intervention with the affairs of foreign nations via toppling their governments to install more favorable ones is bad. Intervention with the affairs of foreign nations because _you refuse to recognize them as their own nation in the first place_ and _intend to use them explicitly to split in the eye of decades of international treaties_ is another.


I've said as much that Putin is the greater evil here. I don't disagree with that. I still hold Putin needs to be removed if possible. But I don't want to be hypocritical and pretend we were perfect, we could have not set a negative precedent in the first place. Putin is the sole leader of a power that holds nuclear weapons, that type of sick person, you can't just act how you want around them. It's dangerous.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Is the reason we invest in guns and big boomsticks and the like, to make sure that if any of these people finally act out their feelings they'll face very painful consequences.


What if this guy Putin, feels like he has nothing less to lose and Nuke everybody as the ship sinks? You can't just rattle your sabre constantly towards somebody like that. You need to use diplomacy at times too.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Such are the feelings of an autocrat, but we have to deal with people like that all over the world. It's just an unfortunate reality. In ideal world most autocrtic leaders would be sent to prison. But, we are stuck in an imperfect world where we have to engage with them.



You are not going to appease an autocrat by reducing your own force's capabilities of course. That would just be playing into their hands. 

Autocrats like Putin try to give people the impression that they are only countering an expansionist NATO because they want to trick them into believing that reducing commitments to common defence will satisfy him. It is a deception intended to make it easier for Russian forces to expand into Eastern Europe.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> You are not going to appease an autocrat by reducing your own force's capabilities of course. That would just be playing into their hands.
> 
> Autocrats like Putin try to give people the impression that they are only countering an expansionist NATO because they want to trick them into believing that reducing commitments to common defence will satisfy him. It is a deception intended to make it easier for Russian forces to expand into Eastern Europe.


I'm not vying for his world view, I am explaining what motivates him or how he sees it. Don't reduce your armed capabilite no, but man, don't set the precedent of liberal invasion eithier, it's not making things easier. That's all I am saying.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> What if this guy Putin, feels like he has nothing less to lose and Nuke everybody as the ship sinks? You can't just rattle your sabre constantly towards somebody like that. You need to use diplomacy at times too.


well that would be very unfortunate, but at least we can all die happy that he's not going to get anywhere either.

Nobody's rattled any sabers towards the russians up until very recently. They just kept saying we did to justify their own saber-rattling.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I've said as much that Putin is the greater evil here. I don't disagree with that. I still hold Putin needs to be removed if possible. But I don't want to be hypocritical and pretend we were perfect, we could have not set a negative precedent in the first place. Putin is the sole leader of a power that holds nuclear weapons, that type of sick person, you can't just act how you want around them. It's dangerous.


The idea put forward was that Russia was backed into a corner here. It... wasn't. The follow up argument was that they're just doing what other nations have done. Which... also isn't true.

This is, put entirely bluntly, Putin and a small number of hardline nationalists in Russia getting high off their own fumes and trying to pull a "GLORY TO THE ETERNAL RUSSIAN EMPIRE".


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm not vying for his world view, I am explaining what motivates him. Don't reduce your armed capabilite no, but man, don't set the precedent of liberal invasion eithier, it's not making things easier. That's all I am saying.



I think not engaging the bull-plop arguments of a dictator that they probably don't even believe themselves is the smartest move to be honest.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I think not engaging the bull-plop arguments of a dictator that they probably don't even believe themselves is the smartest move to be honest.


I'm not sayign that Fallow, I am saying it helps to see his perspective. That's helpful towards diplomacy usually. I'm not going to act like it isn't scary that somebody like Putin has access to nuclear weapons. The guy is increasingly acting out of emotion.


----------



## Regret (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm just going to post that all of the memes and celebratory images of destroyed military equipment are incredibly odious.
> 
> They rob this discussion of the seriousness it deserves, and they give the incorrect impression that death should be celebrated. :\



Agreed.  The problem with discussions like these is that the situation is still highly fluid and the fog of war is active.  Much of what there is to learn won’t be disseminated for quite sometime once it filters through the various economic, diplomatic, and military bodies.  For a furry forum there appears to be a lot of military strategists and geopolitical analysts that must occupy high ranking positions within their respective governments.  All the more surprising and impressive given that a lot of them are in their teens and early twenties.

This isn’t solely directed here, but at all forms of social media and even real life interactions with family, friends, and colleagues regarding this most recent act of Russian aggression.  Frankly it’s exhausting following this thread but at the same time I can’t look away.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Attaman said:


> The idea put forward was that Russia was backed into a corner here. It... wasn't. The follow up argument was that they're just doing what other nations have done. Which... also isn't true.
> 
> This is, put entirely bluntly, Putin and a small number of hardline nationalists in Russia getting high off their own fumes and trying to pull a "GLORY TO THE ETERNAL RUSSIAN EMPIRE".


I don't think the UN/ US has a clean track record, but no nothing we did is quite as bad as what he has done. I just argued that we set a bad precedent. That's really my argument. That's about it, I have also said I fear what he will do if he feels backed into a corner. That's just emotion.


----------



## Thrashy (Mar 3, 2022)

At this point I think we should just replace all male rulers with women. Seriously, the worst that could happen was that nothing would change.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Thrashy said:


> At this point I think we should just replace all male rulers with women. Seriously, the worst that could happen was that nothing would change.


I advocate for yeenocracy. (which would be the same)


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I don't think the UN/ US has a clean track record, but no nothing we did is quite as bad as what he has done. I just argued that we set a bad precedent. That's really my argument.


Let us say that it's known that people in an office are stealing supplies. Mary over in accounting takes pens home with her. Bob over at IT is a prolific stapler thief.

If Larry decides to drive out of the office in the CEO's car because "There was a precedent of workplace theft", "His coworkers set a bad precedent" is a smokescreen at _best_.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Thrashy said:


> At this point I think we should just replace all male rulers with women. Seriously, the worst that could happen was that nothing would change.


Avian overlords ftw.


----------



## Furrium (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> The UN(remember, every country on this earth is a UN member) agreed that in this case, on a limited mandate, agreed that it was legal to prevent something worse (and as it was indicated in srebrenica, the UN mandate was not nearly robust enough to actually prevent massacres like this)
> 
> War is always evil, but sometimes, it can be the lesser of two evils.
> 
> However comparing fairly limited campaigns like Yugoslavia and Libya (which, AFAIK was limited to aerial bombardments only, no boots on the ground) to an all out war of agression on a peaceful, sovereign neighbour is definitly not proportional.


But what about Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Avian overlords ftw.


This means war.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm not sayign that Fallow, I am saying it helps to see his perspective. That's helpful towards diplomacy usually. I'm not going to act like it isn't scary that somebody like Putin has access to nuclear weapons. The guy is increasingly acting out of emotion.



So Putin is well aware that, if an American military intervention was zealous, that this would not make it right for Russia itself to invade its neighbours. 

This is propaganda.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 3, 2022)

Xitheon said:


> Also, I'm curious: if Trump was still president, would he have sided with Putin or would Congress not have allowed it?



Trump only got elected because he was pushed into power by Putin. Steve Bannon the strategist of Trump had good connections to the Kreml and was also a good friend of Alexander Geljewitsch Dugin one of Putins closest advisers and architekt of the imperialist agenda we see unfold right now. They are both part of a right wing network seeking to undermine liberal Democracy and seed authoritarianism in other western countries:



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/04/16/why-far-right-nationalists-like-steve-bannon-have-embraced-russian-ideologue/
		


Trump also got paid big time by russian money after he burnt his assets after the Trump plaza fail in Atlantic city. Without these payments Tump would have been bankrupt at this point. Later on this dependence was used by the Kremlin to compromise him. Trump got used to divide and weaken the agency of US politics to act on Russia, this was done as a build-up to their military actions we see now.

They also used the so called Russian web brigades. To create the QAnnon Cult, feeding some gullible simpletons with BS Propaganda. The man behind this move is called Jewgenij Prigoschin an oligarch doing the dirty work for putin. And he's also the head of the infamous mercenary group called Wagner.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> But what about Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam?


Ironically I can ask you the same question. What were _you guys _doing in these countries?


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> But what about Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam?


The first two are full of terrorists, obviously. Vietnam is a bit more complicated and admittedly an over reaction on our part.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Attaman said:


> Let us say that it's known that people in an office are stealing supplies. Mary over in accounting takes pens home with her. Bob over at IT is a prolific stapler thief.
> 
> If Larry decides to drive out of the office in the CEO's car because "There was a precedent of workplace theft", "His coworkers set a bad precedent" is a smokescreen at _best_.


I mean, a bad environment where illegal acts is normalized does legitimately increase the likelihood that doing something illegal will be normal and thus more likely. I just don't really think we have helped matters. Granted, we are stuck in this situation now, and somehow Us/Un/Nato needs to ensure the Ukraine gets out of it in one piece without causing another world war. It's a difficult tightrope, and I honestly just think things could have done better at points. So, now I do worry for not just the Ukraine but the possibility this could be come something more.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> This means war.


ÒvÓ


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> So Putin is well aware that, if an American military intervention was zealous, that this would not make it right for Russia itself to invade its neighbours.
> 
> This is propaganda.


I think he just feels entitled to the same options. But, I don't truly know what he thinks, Fallow. I am guessing that he just feels envious of the West and that plays a part in this. Keep in mind Fallow, nobody really knows what goes through his head.


----------



## Furrium (Mar 3, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I actually agree to some extent that the US and UN bear some guilt for similar situations. I'd argue the instance of war crimes are a bit lesser, and generally UN/US troops don't move to occupy, or extend territory. But, in principle, I think the UN/Us are to an extent guilty of invading. Just maybe slightly less egregious? It's not by a huge amount. Imo
> 
> Conor covered some of your concerns, but to add some other context but a big part of why Russia is getting as much push-back as it is, is due to the strong perception that it really is not much of a functioning democracy. All the protesters getting arrested IE, Putin's political opponents dying or being sent to prison, how long he's been in office for. (20 years IIRC). So he is seen as authoritarian but most of the West. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you, of course. So it is perceived largely as an autocratic nation attempting to conquer a democratic one. I  think this is part of the reasoning for the condemnation. It's ideological.
> 
> ...


But the problem is that ordinary people who are not guilty of anything are more likely to suffer from sanctions.  It's like shooting an apple on a person's head and only hitting the person.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

@dragon-in-sight 
I think the most relevant aspect of the Trump administration here was their decision to try to withhold military aid from Ukraine, and the repeated accusations that Donald Trump made that Ukraine was interfering in the American electoral system. 

Those were not wise decisions.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 3, 2022)

To speak on just one for the moment.


Furrium said:


> But what about Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam?


While finding specific articles on the matter is difficult (in part because it's almost 20 years old and at the time I was 12), there was a notable precedent of the EU pushing back against intervention in _Iraq_ in the very least. Straight up appeals to spend longer actually seeking evidence of WMD's before intervention, calls to quickly have the US and UK pull out and switch over to UN operations, a great deal of critique at the US' 'plans' - insofar as they could be called such - for post-war reconstruction in Iraq, etcetera.


----------



## Furrium (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Sporting boycotts were an important part of the world's opposition to apartheid South Africa, Ramjet; these decisions are not without precedent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, in Ukraine they also fought with the Donetsk and Lugansk republics, Russia's war against Ukraine can be justified for the same reason.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> Well, in Ukraine they also fought with the Donetsk and Lugansk republics, Russia's war against Ukraine can be justified for the same reason.


_oh dear_


----------



## Furrium (Mar 3, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Ironically I can ask you the same question. What were _you guys _doing in these countries?


Resist interference from you


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> Resist interference from you


I think at this point it doesn't make much sense for us to continue this conversation I'm afraid.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> Well, in Ukraine they also fought with the Donetsk and Lugansk republics, Russia's war against Ukraine can be justified for the same reason.



Russia's justification and prelude to invasion was essentially identical to Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia. 

-Make spurious claims that your ethnic people in that country are oppressed 
-Claim that the smaller country is an existential military threat to you
-Distract the international community with an insincere diplomatic resolution
-Invade


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> But the problem is that ordinary people who are not guilty of anything are more likely to suffer from sanctions.  It's like shooting an apple on a person's head and only hitting the person.


Look, I'm not going to cheer up and down over it Furrium, but crippling the Russian economy is certainly going to make it harder to finance the war, and more importantly. A population that is under duress and understand they are under duress because of the war are likely going to push back against the invading country. If very little of the local population supports the war, there will be less enlisting, reduce the morale of anybody conscripted and there will be resistance against the conducting of the war.

I certainly acknowledge the Western powers aren't guiltless. Believe me, I don't feel great over it. That said, turning a democratic country in an autocratic one like what happened with Belarus would set an incredibly bad omen for the world. You have to weigh the evils here. It'd be in the worlds best interest for the Ukraine to retain it's sovereignty


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 3, 2022)

I spotted a Globemaster right up near Ukraine
She's flown in from the UK


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> Resist interference from you


Dude. Are you a bot or something?


----------



## Green_Brick (Mar 3, 2022)

I'm not happy with how the sanctions are being applied. The Russian people are suffering due to sanctions targeting them. Putin and the mega rich 1% should be the targets, not the lower 99% working class... I have a few artists who were going to draw for me, but because of this insane "sanction bandwagon" that still targets them, Paypal and many other services have decided they must suffer and have stopped to service the Russian public... -_-

I wanted to help them out, since the Russian Ruble is basically dirt, but... I cannot do such a thing if this horrible and unfair targeting continues... -_-


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Russian cats have been banned from competitions now too apparently.


----------



## Judge Spear (Mar 3, 2022)

Very surprised this has been fairly amicable discussion for 18 pages straight.
Proud o' y'all.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Very surprised this has been fairly amicable discussion for 18 pages straight.
> Proud o' y'all.
> 
> 
> View attachment 128360


Because war unites us all who are on the same side.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 3, 2022)

Green_Brick said:


> I'm not happy with how the sanctions are being applied. The Russian people are suffering due to sanctions targeting them. Putin and the mega rich 1% should be the targets, not the lower 99% working class... I have a few artists who were going to draw for me, but because of this insane "sanction bandwagon" that still targets them, Paypal and many other services have decided they must suffer and have stopped to service the Russian public... -_-
> 
> I wanted to help them out, since the Russian Ruble is basically dirt, but... I cannot do such a thing if this horrible and unfair targeting continues... -_-


How, though? In what way could you meaningfully keep someone like Putin from getting whatever he needed via other people or entities who were not affected by sanctions?


----------



## Green_Brick (Mar 3, 2022)

When the rich are reduced from "billions" to "millions", and when they begin bleeding money, they'll turn on Putin and put pressure on him to pull out. Money talks.


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 3, 2022)

Furrium said:


> 1. Please explain to me, maybe I don’t understand, but why are politics and sports interrelated?  Why are athletes suspended because of the war?
> 2. Why were restrictions introduced against Russia in principle?  NATO bombed Yugoslavia, the US invaded Libya, people were dying.  But the US and NATO were punished?  No.  So why is Russia to blame for all the troubles?
> 3. Why impose sanctions against cats?  Have Western rulers torn off the thread in their old age?  Do they think the cats won't like it and they will rebel against the authorities?  This only causes laughter.
> 
> You can scold me, insult me, I stopped paying attention to it, but I don’t mind smart criticism.



1. If the Olympics is something people were looking forward to and training for their entire lives, and to suddenly have the opportunity to stripped away, people would become upset. Maybe enough to rebel in the streets. Maybe plead their government to reconsider.
2. Given Russia's political antics, there are a lot of 'excuses' and reasons for some places to place sanctions against Russia. Even without those, the world is allowed to respond how the world wants to respond. War/the world  has never been fair.
3. For the same reasons as #1. People are losing business, they become upset, problems and unrest arise within Russia and throw off their course of action. People are willing to riot over less than selling cats. This is a strategy where people do not have to become actively involved in the bloodshed, but can still show their support for Ukraine.

Creating unrest is probably one of the easiest and most common tactics people will use to try and disrupt other societies, in case you genuinely didn't know.



Green_Brick said:


> I'm not happy with how the sanctions are being applied. The Russian people are suffering due to sanctions targeting them. Putin and the mega rich 1% should be the targets, not the lower 99% working class...



I feel the same way. Thousands of Russians have been arrested for protesting and some have been arrested for mentioning the word protest. I hope something happens soon that brings it all to a close. Preferably one without more needless destruction and innocent lives lost.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 3, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> And on Trump, I think he'd have threatened Putin with direct military action if he was still in office.


Nah... (in regarsds to your statement), I doubt that. Trump needed both political figures to be able to call on his rolodex; thus... he'd probably walked a fine line and encouraged other nations to weigh in.


Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm...... well, thank you for answering my questions. I'm a little puzzled however when you state that: _"this entire breed of foreign policy just results in issues". Iran is one outcome, Afghanistan is another, Ukraine is another. People only suffer when large countries want to push around smaller ones"_.
> 
> I propose a hypothetical scenario to you then, (at least in regards to the United States). Suppose - U.S. interventions in these smaller countries never happened, and we had sort of a "limp-wristed" foreign policy, a lot like the E.U. has these days☺ where: it's largely a "hands off" approach to intervene, unless absolutely necesary?
> 
> ...


Well... since silence usually equals consent under the law ☺...... you gotta admit, I make some good points here (above) about foreign intervention.

One cannot lambast foreign interventions on the one hand, and then complain later on why no one is helping them on the other...... my larger point above is: you can't have it both ways.... sorry.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 3, 2022)

Green_Brick said:


> When the rich are reduced from "billions" to "millions", and when they begin bleeding money, they'll turn on Putin and put pressure on him to pull out. Money talks.


This does not explain how you'd arrive at that point.


----------



## Green_Brick (Mar 3, 2022)

Russia's economy is already suffering, if harsher sanctions were put on these oligarchs (going to use that name from now on), freeze access to their bank accounts, even the offshore ones, and start seizing assets, it'll work. France has already seized one of their yachts, so it's already underway. Pressure is already beginning to build up.


----------



## LameFox (Mar 3, 2022)

I seriously doubt that would be enough to tank their wealth the way you're describing if the sanctions weren't also targeting the Russian economy overall. In that case they'd just be inclined to move it into Russia instead of trying to hide it overseas.


----------



## Green_Brick (Mar 3, 2022)

I don't see why that wouldn't work since the Russian economy has already tanked. They're no longer billionaires, rather now millionaires. I doubt any greedy oligarch wants to be that much poorer. Tougher sanctions on them would squeeze them much harder than they are feeling right now.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 3, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Sporting boycotts were an important part of the world's opposition to apartheid South Africa, Ramjet; these decisions are not without precedent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think it's going to matter Fallow...
Russia isn't South African, they have back channels with large trading partners that will work around SWIFT sanctions, banning sports teams is just feel good knee jerk cope.
If anything were to bite it would have been the financial hit Russia is taking for this, and it hasn't deterred them to change course.
In fact it could actually backfire on us, but time will tell...


----------



## LameFox (Mar 3, 2022)

Green_Brick said:


> I don't see why that wouldn't work since the Russian economy has already tanked. They're no longer billionaires, rather now millionaires. I doubt any greedy oligarch wants to be that much poorer.


Right but the sanctions are why the economy is so bad. They've been under less severe sanctions already since 2014. To get to the point that seizing their wealth outside of Russia is so significant required sinking their economy in the first place, and only now that it's sunk they have nowhere to hide.

That would not really work in a way that did not impact the ordinary people in Russia.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 3, 2022)

New low for Russian equipment: Mosin-Nagant rifle spotted


----------



## LameFox (Mar 3, 2022)

To be fair it seemed to be a pretty functional rifle.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 3, 2022)

Green_Brick said:


> Russia's economy is already suffering, if harsher sanctions were put on these oligarchs (going to use that name from now on), freeze access to their bank accounts, even the offshore ones, and start seizing assets, it'll work. France has already seized one of their yachts, so it's already underway. Pressure is already beginning to build up.


quick, last post before I exit this thread for a bit - this is being done. They key is to put pressure on both. 

Sanctions, like outright military strikes are designed to hurt nations - they are weapons of economic warfare. Unlike actual artillery strikes or the like they don't tear people to pieces, but they put big dents into their economic development on both sides. The trick is to target them in a way that they'll cause more damage to your opponent than to yourself.

This has often been forgotten since we've used 'sanctions' as a way to virtue signal (as in 'we are doing something') wihtout actually changing our own method and economic engagement.

The easiest way to avoid any sort of sanctions is to not invade your neighbours or start wars - and by extent for the average person this means that one shouldn't vote for nationalist, chauvinist pricks like Putin. He didn't emerge out of thin air. People put him there.


----------



## Green_Brick (Mar 3, 2022)

That's why I said the sanctions should be against Putin, and if that doesn't work, target the oligarchs. The masses of Russian population have already made it quite clear that they were never for Putin's invasion. I really feel for them because we're doing both:

1. Sanctions on Putin and the oligarchs
2. Sanctions on the people who were never for invasion to begin with.

Because of that, a few artists I wanted to help out are unable to draw for me since there's this ugly bandwagon going on that everyone, and everything, is ceasing their services towards the Russian population. (Even though this is legit a "Putin vs. The World" situation)


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Might wise to not say where you are, given the circumstances.
> 
> I hope you're staying safe, though.


Yes I do, thank you. We have a refuge here, so in case of what we go there. Luckily, all the air alarms we had was cancelled after a silence, no explosions or anything.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Might wise to not say where you are, given the circumstances.
> 
> I hope you're staying safe, though.


You think we are being watched by Russians?


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> You think we are being watched by Russians?


Oh yeah, I've read that message wrong.
Russians already trying to attack Poltava but they're unsuccessful, so.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 3, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Yes I do, thank you. We have a refuge here, so in case of what we go there. Luckily, all the air alarms we had was cancelled after a silence, no explosions or anything.


I meant it might not be wise to share where you are specifically on the forum since standard procedure for the Russians in the occupied territories and their separatist proxies is to check internet traffic and devices, particularly in small towns in Donbas. I'm not saying this to unsettle, but you may want to take certain privacy measures to ensure your internet traffic is not being intercepted and that what you say can't be used against you or your family since this is serious.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I meant it might not be wise to share where you are specifically on the forum since standard procedure for the Russians in the occupied territories and their separatist proxies is to check internet traffic and devices, particularly in small towns in Donbas. I'm not saying this to unsettle, but you may want to take certain privacy measures to ensure your internet traffic is not being intercepted and that what you say can't be used against you or your family since this is serious.


And if they find out where he lives, which is almost impossible, they will have a very hard time trying to get through the door.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)

I doubt these Ruskies will come specifically for me, lol. And they just can't reach the city of Poltava, they are stuck in Kharkiv and Sumy.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 3, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> You think we are being watched by Russians?


I mean, not us, but in Ukraine, Russian forces probably will do what what they're doing in the occupied territories in Donbas to monitor internet traffic and use social media to run down information on any possible insurgency. Right now, it seems like they're still trying to accomplish major objectives and take the cities, but I have to believe that anywhere they gain a foothold, especially in smaller towns, they'll set up infrastructure to monitor for opposition. 

I don't want to engage in armchair analysis especially since we've got vets and people with political experience speaking on this thread, but some caution among our Ukrainian friends will protect them.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Not to belabor this, but it's not you they'd specifically be looking for; it's anyone you know who may be fighting them. You just mentioned a relative joining one of the territorial defense militias on here, for anyone reading this site to know, along with your approximate location. Think about that.
> 
> Adopting some form of operational security will help you and those fighting to protect you.


They don't target individuals, they target everyone, they kill soldiers and civilians, but of course I'm not going to reveal my specific location for several reasons.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 3, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> I haven't commented much here for a variety of reasons, but I'll take off my admin hat for a moment and give my personal insight on why you're seeing the VDV basically throwing itself around haphazardly.
> 
> Russia doctrine can be summarized as "better to try and die, than not to try at all." Combine that with there's very real indicators that Russia is having a lot of difficulty communicating (they're literally using *single channel, plain text radio traffic at times; I'll explain what that is below), the VDV is attempting to "do their thing" while simultaneously lacking unity of purpose with their other echelons. In short, they're performing contested air insertions and being mauled because no one is doing their part to assist them.
> 
> *Typical military radio traffic is frequency hopping, digital. Basically all the radios have to be loaded with a cryptologic key that tells it "send X amount of message on X frequency, and X amount on Y, then shuffle this 9000 times." It makes it very difficult to listen in and effectively encrypts the conversations. The issue is if no one has the same keys or they fucked something up, no one is talking. Single channel, plain text is an open air conversation that anyone with the frequency can just listen in.


I was in a meeting with the FAA today.  Single channel radios will not reach Russia.  Please don't try buying a radio and transmitting.  If you are going to do it, use an authorized app but searching SDR in Google play or apple store and looking for HF.  Any news and messages can help.  



Miles Marsalis said:


> I know how horrible and indiscriminate they can be, but it seems like you get the message. Just be careful about what you share and say along with being safe.


Yes, be careful what you say and post.  Russians do monitor and intercept.  One tactic they like to do is threaten family members of resistance. 
Much as it sucks, no current location, no what anyone is doing (family member fighting,  weapons you may have, where staying, etc).  Just let us know you're ok and alive.  Everything else is just causing more of a threat.  Sucks, I know, but keeps you safe.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 3, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Yes, be careful what you say and post. Russians do monitor and intercept. One tactic they like to do is threaten family members of resistance.
> Much as it sucks, no current location, no what anyone is doing (family member fighting, weapons you may have, where staying, etc). Just let us know you're ok and alive. Everything else is just causing more of a threat. Sucks, I know, but keeps you safe.


I'm deleting some of my post here referencing him to be safe, but agreed.


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 3, 2022)

On the subject of radio, it looks like the BBC has brought back it's shortwave broadcasts to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

The BBC Has Revived An Old-School Radio Service To Help Ukraine As TV And Internet Is Attacked By Russia


----------



## Judge Spear (Mar 3, 2022)

Electronic Arts can eat my ass clean. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499058906773000192
Putin and his administration are the problem. Not Russia. Least of all random Russian athletes. 
The bastards are just trying to use this as a means to lower production costs in their video games money fleecing scams. Piggybacking on an international crisis to cut even more corners and look clean in the headlines for the convenient PR. Grade-A virtue signaling increasing tension from a massive corporation.

Cock suckers.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 3, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Electronic Arts can eat my ass clean.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499058906773000192
> ...


Those teams may be owned by Russian oligarchs who have been sanctioned and therefore would collect payments for usage of their teams likenesses in the games.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 3, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Yes, be careful what you say and post.  Russians do monitor and intercept.





Miles Marsalis said:


> -snip-


With all due respect, my fellow users.... but, (like some other users above you suggested might occur).... all I gotta say to that is: if one starts "watching what they say" so to speak, and in essence - censors themselves, simply because they're afraid the Russians may intercept it..... then.... perhaps one might be seeing/reading too many espionage stories...... or - is just a little too paranoid about it.

To be frank.... I don't think the Russians are monitoring a furry fandom interest board and reading the little soundbites (created by us) inside little text boxes ☺; and so... I think people can relax in that regard.
-----------------
If a user fears for their safety on here, (for the life of me I can't imagine why).... well then, there's always PM's (utilized via a throwaway account) that they can use.

And..... don't forget - to time things so that all messages "self destruct" within 24-hours though, just to be safe.


----------



## Judge Spear (Mar 3, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Those teams may be owned by Russian oligarchs who have been sanctioned and therefore would collect payments for usage of their teams likenesses in the games.


Probably. That sounds believable. But knowing these corporations, I bet money I don't have this was absolutely not their thought process. Especially EA out of all of them.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 3, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> With all due respect, my fellow users.... but, (like some other users above you suggested might occur).... all I gotta say to that is: if one starts "watching what they say" so to speak, and in essence - censors themselves, simply because they're afraid the Russians may intercept it..... then.... perhaps one might be seeing/reading too many espionage stories...... or - is just a little too paranoid about it.
> 
> To be frank.... I don't think the Russians are monitoring a furry fandom interest board and reading the little soundbites (created by us) inside little text boxes ☺; and so... I think people can relax in that regard.
> -----------------
> ...


It's not about Russians spying on the furry fandom; it's about the fact that standard Russian counterinsurgency procedure is to use internet activity analysis and social media root out actual and potential opposition. 

The Russian government does this within their own country to its own citizens and its military intelligence service, specifically the GRU, has done it in Donbas and Crimea as well. 

The issue here is the Russian forces in Ukraine hunting for Ukrainian resistance will eventually do their due diligence to find those associated with that resistance, even if it means going someone's activity history and their post on a furry forum. 

Now, we can debate how effective they may be, but it might be wise for Ukrainians to just avoid sharing certain details that could compromise them in the long-run.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 3, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Probably. That sounds believable. But knowing these corporations, I bet money I don't have this was absolutely not their thought process. Especially EA out of all of them.


Being real, I don't really care about the motivations of these gaming companies as long as they are complying with the sanctions and doing their part. They may have even made the move preemptively because they realize they couldn't make payment for the likenesses of the teams and their players to sanctioned oligarchs legally. 

Whatever the reason, it is trivial compared to the need to impose these sanction against these individuals.


----------



## ContraryWarrior (Mar 3, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Ghost of Kiev has been confirmed by the ukranian government, the new fighter ace.
> 
> Current kill count: 2 Su-35, 2 Su-25, one Su-27 and one MiG-29


WOW I looked up this ace and he looks good but it says he is dead now


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)

ContraryWarrior said:


> WOW I looked up this ace and he looks good but it says he is dead now


Wherever you read he is dead, I recently heard he got his 30th plane on his kill count and he will be getting a new F-16 jet. Instead of Ghost, he is a Phantom now.


----------



## ContraryWarrior (Mar 3, 2022)

yes he is trying to bring back the soviet union


Parabellum3 said:


> He's just a demented old man who thinks Ukraine and NATO are nazis.


----------



## ContraryWarrior (Mar 3, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Wherever you read he is dead, I recently heard he got his 30th plane on his kill count and he will be getting a new F-16 jet. Instead of Ghost, he is a Phantom now.


Nice. I'm lonely. I would gladly go and pick up a rifle in ukraine to defend their home. What putin is doing is evil.








						News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian
					

Latest US news, world news, sports, business, opinion, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice




					www.theguardian.com
				



it's all there


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 3, 2022)

ContraryWarrior said:


> yes he is trying to bring back the soviet union


More like the Russian Empire.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 3, 2022)

Ukraine has declared that citizens don't have to pay taxes on captured Russian equipment, very nice


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)

ContraryWarrior said:


> Nice. I'm lonely. I would gladly go and pick up a rifle in ukraine to defend their home. What putin is doing is evil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't trust all the information, you should check different sources, trusted sources, and even then it's not 100% true. There are fakes being spread around you know.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 3, 2022)

TurbidCyno said:


> On the subject of radio, it looks like the BBC has brought back it's shortwave broadcasts to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.
> 
> The BBC Has Revived An Old-School Radio Service To Help Ukraine As TV And Internet Is Attacked By Russia


Again, several SDR HF radio operators are running apps.


Ringo the Wolf said:


> You don't trust all the information, you should check different sources, trusted sources, and even then it's not 100% true. There are fakes being spread around you know.


Ghost of Kyiv is amazing.  But really the Ukranian Air Force is heroic.  It was the first time I've seen a viper manuever, but I was corrected that it is a 
Pugachev's Cobra or Perry's something other.  Supposedly the F-35 and F-22 can do it too, as a test of super maneuvering.  It's f'ing devastating: almost sudden stop, then a perfect gun line on the pursuer after the overshoot.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 3, 2022)

Skittles said:


> Soviet era tanks broil up good! I recall seeing a video form Syria where one takes a hit and turns into a firework factory. Sending a jet of flame up through the turret and gun. Not pretty.


AC-130s are great for tanks as well. 
Russia is looking at 2 years to recover from the losses of the last week there and around world.  20% damaged, disabled, or destroyed.


Flamingo said:


> Russian doctrine is very command and control oriented, as in "listen for dad to tell us what to do." NATO follows the American model (or really, early Prussian model) of mission command. The difference is we (the west), issue mission orders and provide commander's intent and then tell subordinate commanders "go." So if dad stops communicating, we at least know what their intent was and can execute accordingly.
> 
> OK thank you for coming to by TED Talk.


Good brief, Sergeant


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 3, 2022)

Regret said:


> Agreed.  The problem with discussions like these is that the situation is still highly fluid and the fog of war is active.  Much of what there is to learn won’t be disseminated for quite sometime once it filters through the various economic, diplomatic, and military bodies.  For a furry forum there appears to be a lot of military strategists and geopolitical analysts that must occupy high ranking positions within their respective governments.  All the more surprising and impressive given that a lot of them are in their teens and early twenties.


Master Sergeant, 24 years, AF.  Guessing one Staff Sergeant.  A lieutenant or captain, maybe.  Gallows humor.  Sign of a really, really bad time.  to everyone affected, stay safe.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 3, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> AC-130s are great for tanks as well.
> Russia is looking at 2 years to recover from the losses of the last week there and around world.  20% damaged, disabled, or destroyed.
> 
> Good brief, Sergeant


I'm a major, but thank you. :*)


----------



## Skittles (Mar 3, 2022)

I now desire art of @Minerva_Minx flying a plane whilst @Flamingo air drops from it. 

Thank you. This has been my Queen talks.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

Well that's wonderful, there's fighting that's started fires at a Ukrainian nuclear power plant
My cousin is once again very happy to be in America, he had to be treated for a while for radiation poisoning after Chernobyl


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

Skittles said:


> I now desire art of @Minerva_Minx flying a plane whilst @Flamingo air drops from it.
> 
> Thank you. This has been my Queen talks.


Other way around, lol.  Officers fly.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Well that's wonderful, there's fighting that's started fires at a Ukrainian nuclear power plant
> My cousin is once again very happy to be in America, he had to be treated for a while for radiation poisoning after Chernobyl


Ack!  Well you get over here!


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 4, 2022)

My grandfather from my mom’s side passed away early from cancer suspected to be caused by radiation while he was working on ICBM warheads or something along those lines.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Ack!  Well you get over here!


Luckily I already am (was born here in the US)


----------



## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 4, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I was in a meeting with the FAA today.  Single channel radios will not reach Russia.  Please don't try buying a radio and transmitting.  If you are going to do it, use an authorized app but searching SDR in Google play or apple store and looking for HF.  Any news and messages can help.


I'm in the Midwest and I've been hitting both Russia and Ukraine on 160 meter band with 500 watts. About an hour after sundown here and early morning there. It's all skip and it may go away any day but yeah, it can be done if you're patient and know what you're doing with your equipment. I routinely talk to Australia from my mobile rig in my pickup truck on 80 meter band. Found a nice high spot in a parking lot nearby for that to happen.

As an aside, I hold an Amateur Extra with GROL and RADAR for my HAM licenses.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 4, 2022)

Seems some things don't change, militarily at least. The Russians haven't changed their doctrine since the prime time of the Soviet Union it seems. I'm not sure how aproproiate it is to deem it, but with how the conflcit has been going Russia is more similair to a paper tiger than I might have imagined. a big roar, but not quite enough to justify all the bluster.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

For Ukraine spirits








						Did Two AFSOC Ospreys Fly a Midnight Mission To Evacuate Ukraine Diplomats?
					

Four Air Force Special Operations Command, or AFSOC, flights may have been sent to evacuate the last American diplomats from in Ukraine Monday night.




					coffeeordie.com
				



if true. IF true, because neither confirm nor deny.








						The stealth helicopters used in the 2011 raid on Osama bin Laden are still cloaked in mystery
					

A decade after the famous mission that killed Osama bin Laden, here's what we know about the stealthy helicopters the military employed.




					www.popsci.com
				



*warm fuzzy feelings*


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 4, 2022)

Skittles said:


> I now desire art of @Minerva_Minx flying a plane whilst @Flamingo air drops from it.
> 
> Thank you. This has been my Queen talks.


I don't have nice enough hair (and I'm in the wrong branch) to be a pilot.


----------



## Eremurus (Mar 4, 2022)

"Putin is trying to bring back the USSR!"


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 4, 2022)

I hate how hesitative NATO is. They just let our people die, afraid of war with Russia. Fucking cowards. There can be another Chernobyl disaster, 10 times bigger actually. What are they gonna say then???


----------



## Lenago (Mar 4, 2022)

I was very much alarmed when i heared that a nuclear power plant was in fire yesterday.

I hope this horrid war stops soon, and that the russian army will cease fire, nothing justifies this madness and horror. But i fear with Putin this deranged, only a inside coup, or a total disaster will stop this...


----------



## Fcomega121 (Mar 4, 2022)

A


lenago said:


> I was very much alarmed when i heared that a nuclear power plant was in fire yesterday.
> 
> I hope this horrid war stops soon, and that the russian army will cease fire, nothing justifies this madness and horror. But i fear with Putin this deranged, only a inside coup, or a total disaster will stop this...


same here hun, I was very alarmed when I heard that~

honestly, at this point, the world would return to peace quicker if putler gets "Retired Permanently" along his putzis.
shame he's a coward and hides away from any sniper view point..


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> I don't think it's going to matter Fallow...
> Russia isn't South African, they have back channels with large trading partners that will work around SWIFT sanctions, banning sports teams is just feel good knee jerk cope.
> If anything were to bite it would have been the financial hit Russia is taking for this, and it hasn't deterred them to change course.
> In fact it could actually backfire on us, but time will tell...



I think you should refrain from describing sporting boycotts as 'cancel culture', given that these are policies with precedent. 
Using this kind of language is just playing into the Kremlin's hands. 

Wholesale sanctions on the Russian economy will challenge their ability to fund their war machine. If the Kremlin cannot be deterred and is intent on a continued expansion into Europe, or deploys nuclear weapons, then we are going to be forced into a direct military confrontation with Russia in the coming years. If this should happen it is very much in our collective interest that their economic and industrial base is undermined.



Green_Brick said:


> That's why I said the sanctions should be against Putin, and if that doesn't work, target the oligarchs. The masses of Russian population have already made it quite clear that they were never for Putin's invasion. I really feel for them because we're doing both:
> 
> 1. Sanctions on Putin and the oligarchs
> 2. Sanctions on the people who were never for invasion to begin with.
> ...



I am going to suggest that Russian artists who wish to help should consider producing art in exchange for customers making donations to neutral charities such as cancer research or medicine sans frontiers.




Judge Spear said:


> Cock suckers.



Promotion of its sporting successes has been a significant avenue for Russia to project its political influence and a major economic boon to them. (I just checked and saw both you and Miles agreed that the image reproduction rights are a source of money)
Reflecting on Russian sport more widely, I probably do not need to remind anybody that Russia used the Socchi winter Olympics as a cover to position their troops ahead of their invasion of Crimea.
Russia's recent full-scale invasion was also positioned while many in the world were watching sports in Beijing. 

So I am not surprised that Russian athletes are no longer welcome in international sport. 
While I feel sorry for the athletes, my thoughts at the moment are with people being shelled in Ukraine- and I think that is something mature athletes will recognise.




Ringo the Wolf said:


> I hate how hesitative NATO is. They just let our people die, afraid of war with Russia. Fucking cowards. There can be another Chernobyl disaster, 10 times bigger actually. What are they gonna say then???



There is a tightrope. Everybody wants to intervene and to help, but if Russia deploys its nuclear arsenal this will end civilisation.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 4, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> If this should happen it is very much in our collective interest that their economic and industrial base is undermined.


Any updates on how much China's economy is still willing to deal with Russia?

Because there's probably the biggest plausible hole in the sanctions right there.

Rapid 30-second search gives at least one article that suggests it's not as ironclad as I just made it sound, but it's still something to consider if planning for the potential long game of the Kremlin sticking to blatant expansionism.

I wonder if Chinese history books still acknowledge Russia screwing them over in big ways in the past?  (I'm thinking of the Second Opium War, but perhaps there's a Communist-era screwjob that's even better to use to talk them out of getting too buddy-buddy.)


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

I am sharing this news coverage because I think it is important to understand just how deeply the Kremlin's propaganda affects people; that parents would refuse to believe their own children as they come under fire or even tell them that the civilian deaths they are witnessing are a just retribution. 
We are probably all familiar with people complaining that their friends and relatives have been lost to conspiracy theory communities like Qanon, or covonavirus-denial, and the similarity that these stories have to Kremlin's current disinformation campaign are not coincidental. 









						Ukraine war: 'My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me'
					

These Ukrainians say their Russian relatives only trust the narratives they see on TV at home.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Any updates on how much China's economy is still willing to deal with Russia?
> 
> Because there's probably the biggest plausible hole in the sanctions right there.
> 
> ...



You are right that their relationship with Russia in recent years has been an uneasy friendship.
I am worried about India at the moment, because I read they were considering means to help Russia evade SWIFT sanctions. (even as Indian medical students are injured or killed by Russian shelling. The Kremlin's official response to this has been that ethnic Indians are being help hostage as human shields by 'Nazis')


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I think you should refrain from describing sporting boycotts as 'cancel culture', given that these are policies with precedent.
> Using this kind of language is just playing into the Kremlin's hands.
> 
> Wholesale sanctions on the Russian economy will challenge their ability to fund their war machine. If the Kremlin cannot be deterred and is intent on a continued expansion into Europe, or deploys nuclear weapons, then we are going to be forced into a direct military confrontation with Russia in the coming years. If this should happen it is very much in our collective interest that their economic and industrial base is undermined.
> ...



I'll openly speak my mind Fallow, I don't follow the hive mind.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> I'll openly speak my mind Fallow, I don't follow the hive mind.
> 
> View attachment 128380



This _is_ the line the Kremlin has been pushing, Ramjet. So just be aware of that.
They are actively exploiting existing lines of political disagreement in the West to try to undermine solidarity as they launch legal appeals to try to get international bodies to allow their athletes to compete.

If this all goes very badly, ultimately our opinions on more trivial subjects like sports won't matter though.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> This _is_ the line the Kremlin has been pushing, Ramjet.



And?

Y'all gonna be in for a rude awakening as these sanctions bite back.
For those paying attention, they already have.
Might want to take a look at the price of WTI Fallow....


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 4, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> There is a tightrope. Everybody wants to intervene and to help, but if Russia deploys its nuclear arsenal this will end civilisation.


Why all the world is afraid of just one damn country?


----------



## ben909 (Mar 4, 2022)

because like the us they could end most life on the planet if they really wanted to...


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> And?
> 
> Y'all gonna be in for a rude awakening as these sanctions bite back.
> For those paying attention, they already have.
> Might want to take a look at the price of WTI Fallow....


So it's pretty dumb to do the Kremlin's job for them. It's not exactly the move of an independent thinker. 

Economic blowback from these sanctions are definitely going to be severe for people in both Russia and the West. 
The alternatives are
- armed intervention, which carries a significant risk of nuclear war. 
- allowing Russia to occupy its neighbour without contest. That's not moral, but it's also pretty dumb, because the Kremlin is not going to stop there.



Ringo the Wolf said:


> Why all the world is afraid of just one damn country?


Because few of us would survive the effects of a nuclear war.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 4, 2022)

ben909 said:


> because like the us they could end most life on the planet if they really wanted to...


although the other point that has been made also stands, if we are afraid of doing anything because of their nukes, then we might as well let them have everything


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

ben909 said:


> although the other point that has been made also stands, if we are afraid of doing anything because of their nukes, then we might as well let them have everything



We can make it as difficult as possible for the Kremlin to invade and occupy other nations. Putin will not live forever, and the leaders who come after them may decide that restoring Russia's international relationships is more attractive than restoring its territorial ambitions.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 4, 2022)

ben909 said:


> although the other point that has been made also stands, if we are afraid of doing anything because of their nukes, *then we might as well let them have everything*


Let them have everything? Are you serious right now???


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 4, 2022)

Given how everyone is talking about nukes like they could be thrown around all willy nilly, please consider the side effects of using such devices- It would make those spaces uninhabitable for _years_. While there is always the possibility of someone giving you the finger and taking everyone out with them, you also have to consider the fact that it would be stupid to nuke places you are trying to conquer and intend to occupy immediately.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 4, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> Let them have everything? Are you serious right now???


no, that is not what the comment ment, it was pointing out a flaw in the logic of avoiding things because of russia's strength


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Given how everyone is talking about nukes like they could be thrown around all willy nilly, please consider the side effects of using such devices- It would make those spaces uninhabitable for _years_. While there is always the possibility of someone giving you the finger and taking everyone out with them, you also have to consider the fact that it would be stupid to nuke places you are trying to conquer and intend to occupy immediately.



Russia's nuclear deterrent is aimed at major cities in the West. 
While some nuclear weapons are intended as 'denial of area' weapons, others are designed to cause waves of intense and brief radiation that destroy biological matter but leave infrastructure standing. 





__





						Neutron bomb - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 4, 2022)

ben909 said:


> no, that is not what the comment ment, it was pointing out a flaw in the logic of avoiding things because of russia's strength


I'm just pissed at the situation with the war and the hesitation from the west.


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 4, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Russia's nuclear deterrent is aimed at major cities in the West.
> While some nuclear weapons are intended as 'denial of area' weapons, others are designed to cause waves of intense and brief radiation that destroy biological matter but leave infrastructure standing.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm meaning the quality of life. You can't occupy a place if the radiation kills you, or the water supplies become polluted. Etc etc. I'm not just referring to infrastructure.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 4, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> I'm meaning the quality of life. You can't occupy a place if the radiation kills you, or the water supplies become polluted. Etc etc. I'm not just referring to infrastructure.



Some nuclear weapons leave disastrous radiological pollution that would last for long periods of time, and other nuclear weapons do not. 
These latter nuclear weapons are much more likely to be used on the ground in Ukraine itself. 

The threat of 'dirty' nuclear weapons that would render areas uninhabitable for centuries, such as cobalt bombs, is more usually directed against distant cities in other countries. Those sorts of bombs are the 'doomsday' devices that would end human civilisation.


----------



## ReginaldLudwig (Mar 4, 2022)

Also, don't take too much comfort from the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction - it's a "western" philosophy that doesn't really apply to Russia. Historically speaking, the Soviet leadership didn't believe that a small nuclear exchange would necessarily turn into a larger one, and they didn't believe that a large nuclear exchange would be the end of the world or even the end of the war. They had their own ground troops march through nuclear test sites shortly after detonation, because they expected a conventional war would follow a nuclear exchange and so they trained for that scenario. I've seen no indication that the philosophy guiding modern Russian military leadership is really any different, which means that nukes are definitely an option on the table. 
That said, I agree that we can't let the (very real) threat of nuclear weapons stop us from taking any action, because that threat will continue regardless of what we do.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 4, 2022)

The only possible way to minimize Russia’s nuclear retaliation capability is to launch a massive preemptive strike aiming to take out silos, airfields, sub pens, and the leadership all at once. Though that will be very tricky to execute perfectly and has a good chance of it not working the way it should.



Fallowfox said:


> The threat of 'dirty' nuclear weapons that would render areas uninhabitable for centuries, such as cobalt bombs, is more usually directed against distant cities in other countries. Those sorts of bombs are the 'doomsday' devices that would end human civilisation.


I do not believe these have been developed yet though, hopefully…


----------



## ben909 (Mar 4, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> I'm just pissed at the situation with the war and the hesitation from the west.


i understand that, thats part of why i wanted to clarify i did not mean that giving up was a good thing


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 4, 2022)

ben909 said:


> i understand that, thats part of why i wanted to clarify i did not mean that giving up was a good thing


We here are definitely not giving up.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 4, 2022)

ReginaldLudwig said:


> Also, don't take too much comfort from the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction - it's a "western" philosophy that doesn't really apply to Russia. Historically speaking, the Soviet leadership didn't believe that a small nuclear exchange would necessarily turn into a larger one, and they didn't believe that a large nuclear exchange would be the end of the world or even the end of the war. They had their own ground troops march through nuclear test sites shortly after detonation, because they expected a conventional war would follow a nuclear exchange and so they trained for that scenario. I've seen no indication that the philosophy guiding modern Russian military leadership is really any different, which means that nukes are definitely an option on the table.
> That said, I agree that we can't let the (very real) threat of nuclear weapons stop us from taking any action, because that threat will continue regardless of what we do.


i really don't think a "tactical" nuke is what is being talked about in todays contexts


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Might want to take a look at the price of WTI Fallow....


America is capable of being oil independent, building towards that again should be our focus rather than worries about how sanctions on Russia will effect our ability to buy from them


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

I hate bringing up military complexity.

Russia has a nuclear doctrine that states they won't deliver a first strike.  Now, Putin doesn't care, but no one wants nukes.  Of tje State, namely Putin, feels threatened, they have stated that is enough.  So, oir troops in Russia, given the ineptness of their military, is probably enough.

We have sanctioned them hard, but Putin doesn't care because he would sacrifice Russia to maintain power over the embers. It's like North Korea - if China doesn't help, Russia will, or even Iran or someone else and so on and so forth.  Net result, North Korea sucks, but Kim Jon Il is still im charge.  Same with Putin.  Nothing we can do.  So Russia is North Korea v2.0.

Martial law is or already has been declared.  So, that sucks.  Again, Putin doesn't and hasn't cared for Russians, just bread and circuses.  Will they rise up against it?  Seriously doubt it.  Russians are worried and have been taught to fear the State.  They could easily overpower Putin and his regime, but, like most Americans, someone else can risk their life because mine is too valuable.  Uprising is no chance.  Talk about it, sure, but talk is definitely cheap.  They leave you alone if you don't talk.

  The nuclear plant was self preservation.  Winds were blowing to Russia and the troops shelling it were aboit to be decimated.  NATO told Putin that was enough to escalate to nuclear weapons.

Putin has a history of doubling down when he blunders, not pulling back.  If he retreats, this adventure was so costly so far, it risks his power.  So, unfortunately, I just see escalation in atrocity with the idea tje West will capitulate if he wins.


----------



## Smityyyy (Mar 4, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> They could easily overpower Putin and his regime, but, like most Americans, someone else can risk their life because mine is too valuable.  Uprising is no chance.  Talk about it, sure, but talk is definitely cheap.  They leave you alone if you don't talk.


This is so true. The amount of change that could be made is always overshadowed by fear and/or apathy by the people. Heavy propaganda also plays into it — keeping people satisfied by telling them “Things aren’t perfect but this is the best system we have” so that they won’t advocate for better.

It’s unfortunate.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 4, 2022)

I'd be hesitant to argue that a popular uprising could displace Putin. He has a precedent of black-bagging people who are either of 'undesirable' politics / demographics to him, as well as utilizing live ammunition / displaying minimal regard for collateral in breaking up protests. Furthermore, he has taken various efforts with the military to promote loyalty where it matters (from who gets to command to who has the heavier kit).

This isn't to say there's simply no possibility of a coup or the like (_no_ leader is fully resistant to a revolt), but... well, what do people _expect_ the general population to do? The thing with martial law is that it means you expect the military to carry out your orders on your own population before getting cold feet. And we already know the sort of orders Putin has issued domestically to quell unrest. This wouldn't be a 2020 "The world is watching as police aim rubber bullets at kettle'd protestors' faces, meanwhile beating / using pepper spray on cable news crews recording the incident" (which, for reference, is still its own flavor of terrible). We'd be looking at lists 2-3 digits long of protestors being taken away in body bags, likely with at least that number _again_ unaccounted for after disappearing into - if lucky - police vehicles (and if unlucky unmarked ones). Per protest.

Internal pressure _can_ displace Putin, but barring a violent civil war it's not going to be a matter the general population decides _on their own_. It's going to require prominent military defections. Oligarchs pulling out the rug. Police and any military support being too poorly supplied to either maintain such measures, or to _themselves_ think of joining in.

This is in large part _why_ the current sanctions are aimed at putting a squeeze on those up top. Yes, said persons will milk the general population as best they can to insulate themselves. But Putin has at least some matter between his ears and so to do those underneath him. If somebody makes a big enough example of themselves they will be thrown to the wolves as a sort of pressure release, and by the same token they _know_ that one (or more) of them will be used as sacrificial lambs to buy time and thus will look for ways to insulate themselves from the _top_ too.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 4, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> It's not about Russians spying on the furry fandom; it's about the fact that standard Russian counterinsurgency procedure is to use internet activity analysis and social media root out actual and potential opposition.


Well..... I and others are aware of that allegation..... but (even if that's true everywhere online) many of us will say that we doubt it's happening on here (this forum) though. And thus...... people can chill out in that regard I think.

No one really cares - if a guy who has a coyote fursona criticizes Putin and his governemnt on a Furry message board at 2AM.... but (hey) perhaps that's just me..... (shrug).

And so, if there's others on here that wish to speak up, then - they should do so..... as they have nothing to fear on here, as far as I can surmise.
---------------
@BluefoxLongtail In any case I hope you read my points above, my friend.... for whatever they may be worth to you. As I and others wholeheartedly agree that the liberation of both the Pacific and European areas during World War II (for example) was a much needed "larger government intervention" that actually saved countless lives, preserved many cultures and languages (which is counter to what you argued), and yes - even promoted the idea of western democratic ways of doing things...... which - benefitted many of those cultures and peoples immensely.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

I'm hearing rumors the russians are bringing in mobile crematoriums to hide civilian casualties

Seems like a big thing to believe but I've heard it from a few separate sources now, and I certainly wouldn't put it past the Ruski higher-ups


----------



## Guifrog (Mar 4, 2022)

The translation company I work for has partnered with Translators Without Borders/CLEAR Global, which is enlisting language professionals to aid both refugees and others impacted by the events in Ukraine and neighboring countries. They are specifically seeking experts in Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Hungarian, Czech, Romanian, Moldovan, and German

Of course, this is not exclusive to professionals who work for my company. If_ anyone_ feels like they're able to provide some aid to help people get the information they're looking for, they're more than welcome:

1) You may register as a translator for TWB:








						Translators without Borders | TWB Platform
					

TWB Platform is a web-based translation platform, powered by SOLAS, where volunteers can help translate content for nonprofit organizations and causes




					kato.translatorswb.org
				




2) You may contribute financially to ensure things like getting training materials for field interpreters, sending teams to the borders to aid migrants, etc., here:








						Donate - CLEAR Global
					

With your help, we can bridge the digital language divide, and build language solutions for a just world. Support our work, and donate today.




					clearglobal.org
				




3) You may check some additional resources and find more detailed info on the initiative here:








						Ukraine Emergency Appeal
					

With over 20 languages spoken in Ukraine, it is critical that people can get vital information and services, whatever language they speak.




					clearglobal.org


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 4, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> I'm hearing rumors the russians are bringing in mobile crematoriums to hide civilian casualties
> 
> Seems like a big thing to believe but I've heard it from a few separate sources now, and I certainly wouldn't put it past the Ruski higher-ups



I heared that too just a few days ago. Allegedly these should have been used to burn the corpses of dead russian soldiers to hide own casualties. But After all we have seen I wouldn't be surprised if they would use it to cover up other warcrimes aswell:


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

Russian tactics.  Still, apparently





The mobile crematoriums were last used, tragically, in the Crimea invasion I think.  This is partly why Putin is doing $50K for anyone killed.  It's all a lie in a lie.


Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well..... I and others are aware of that allegation..... but (even if that's true everywhere online) many of us will say that we doubt it's happening on here (this forum) though. And thus...... people can chill out in that regard I think.
> 
> No one really cares - if a guy who has a coyote fursona criticizes Putin and his governemnt on a Furry message board at 2AM.... but (hey) perhaps that's just me..... (shrug).
> 
> ...


System of Operational-Investigatory Measures (SORM).  I think it stores 12 hours of data.   Look for locked room with 1.5m square or rectangular box.  light on fire.

Personally, I don't trust Yandex and believe it likely connected at some level to the Russian government.  I don't know.  However, it also does Cyrillic so, meh?  I generally suspect any IT product put out by Russia or China of having a backdoor, spyware, or some other malware payload.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 4, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well..... I and others are aware of that allegation..... but (even if that's true everywhere online) many of us will say that we doubt it's happening on here (this forum) though. And thus...... people can chill out in that regard I think.
> 
> No one really cares - if a guy who has a coyote fursona criticizes Putin and his governemnt on a Furry message board at 2AM.... but (hey) perhaps that's just me..... (shrug).
> 
> And so, if there's others on here that wish to speak up, then - they should do so..... as they have nothing to fear on here, as far as I can surmise.


Clearly you missed the news today, because the Russian government banned Facebook and Twitter today along with passing provisions that effectively closed the free independent press in Russia. 

Also, the Russian plan for Sphere specifically includes capabilities for surveilling users of the service.

So I would say the Kremlin very much cares what about what criticisms are made about Putin and his government. 

More importantly, I'd say misunderstanding me because I have repeatedly said the *Ukrainians *here are at risk if they post _*personal details about themselves or those they are associated with who are resisting Russian forces*_, and _*those outside of Russia and Ukraine aren't at risk*_. 

I'm not saying people can express their opinions; they can. But they need to be careful about what details they give about themselves and if they're in Ukraine they need to use anonymizing tools on their devices to protect themselves.

Got it?


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 4, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Personally, I don't trust Yandex and believe it likely connected at some level to the Russian government. I don't know. However, it also does Cyrillic so, meh? I generally suspect any IT product put out by Russia or China of having a backdoor, spyware, or some other malware payload.


Meduza has reported on how Yandex generally honors requests for information from the Russian government, specifically from the FSB, GRU, SVR, and Interior Ministry, corroborated by Yandex's own transparency report.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> America is capable of being oil independent, building towards that again should be our focus rather than worries about how sanctions on Russia will effect our ability to buy from them



No your not, and even with the sanctions and the closure of the Nord Stream 2 project, you still to this day buy a good amount of Russian oil for your own use.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> So it's pretty dumb to do the Kremlin's job for them. It's not exactly the move of an independent thinker.
> 
> Economic blowback from these sanctions are definitely going to be severe for people in both Russia and the West.
> The alternatives are
> ...



Lmao ok Nigel.

The sanctions aren't stopping the invasion, and will only solidify other country's outside of our influence to pivot to the East.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> No your not, and even with the sanctions and the closure of the Nord Stream 2 project, you still to this day buy a good amount of Russian oil for your own use.


Ok this makes no sense whatsoever in the context of my post lol so may we try again?


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 4, 2022)

Maybe some brave Americans are willing to go over to fight with Ukraine like the Lincoln Battalion during the Spanish Civil War?








						Lincoln Battalion - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Lmao ok Nigel.
> 
> The sanctions aren't stopping the invasion, and will only solidify other country's outside of our influence to pivot to the East.


Eh, China hasn't endorsed the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the older generations there are not too fond Russian government given the history between the two. More importantly, China is not going to risk their economic relationships with developed world, especially the United States (their largest single national market) for Russia, which an economy the size of Italy. 

Being charitable, assuming China does choose to go all in and help the Russians evade sanctions, their economy can't substitute for Russia losing all of its other trading partners, particular the European Union and United States. There are even certain goods, like technological components the Russians need for their military and technology industry that China simply can't reproduce. 

So either way, China isn't an escape hatch for the Russian economy. 

The sanctions are actually overperforming in a sense because the ruble is down to less then a cent of US dollar, debit and credit cards has become effectively useless within Russia, Russians can't do business abroad, and the Russian economy is contracting dramatically. 

We need to keep the sanctions up.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Meduza has reported on how Yandex generally honors requests for information from the Russian government, specifically from the FSB, GRU, SVR, and Interior Ministry, corroborated by Yandex's own transparency report.


And their bots track this site.  Only so much can be done on it.


Baron Tredegar said:


> Maybe some brave Americans are willing to go over to fight with Ukraine like the Lincoln Battalion during the Spanish Civil War?


We have no boots on the ground.  There are many ways to fight.


Ramjet said:


> Lmao ok Nigel.
> 
> The sanctions aren't stopping the invasion, and will only solidify other country's outside of our influence to pivot to the East.


Our goddess, Javelin be thy name.  The tanks they come, 4 men and gun, and depart this world together.  Give us thy Stinger, for aircraft unknown, and radio for air support.  For thou art with Soldiers, Marines, and Airmen now and forever.  Lay in.

I think I missed where the other countriesmsaw the invasion of Ukraine and the sheer volume of Stingers and Javelins, and went, "Uhm, I'll take the gazebo tank, Su27, and Russian army..."  Most went, "Hey, NATO, uhm, can we fast track this?  EU?"  In China's case, it was support Putin but don't step on America's toes.

Putin fears this above all else:
As long as tides of war are in our favor, the United States will never stop fighting. As a consequence, the war will continue for several years, during which materiel will be exhausted, vessels and arms will be damaged, and they can be replaced only with great difficulties.
Isoroku Yamamoto


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Eh, China hasn't endorsed the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the older generations there are not too fond Russian government given the history between the two. More importantly, China is not going to risk their economic relationships with developed world, especially the United States (their largest single national market) for Russia, which an economy the size of Italy.
> 
> Being charitable, assuming China does choose to go all in and help the Russians evade sanctions, their economy can't substitute for Russia losing all of its other trading partners, particular the European Union and United States. There are even certain goods, like technological components the Russians need for their military and technology industry that China simply can't reproduce.
> 
> ...



Why do you think Russia waited to invade until after the Olympics was over?








						Before Ukraine Invasion, Russia and China Cemented Economic Ties
					

Facing a wary United States and worried about depending on imports by sea, China is buying more energy and food from its northern neighbor.




					www.nytimes.com
				




If you really think the US would be in any position to sanction China in any meaningful way your delusional, practically every consumer good you buy in the West has China involved.
Closing yourselves off to China in retaliation for them skirting Russian Sanctions would usher in your own economic collapse.

We might get there anyway....
>Inflationary market
>Skyrocketing energy costs

I bet that KeyStone XL pipeline would've looked pretty good right now, no?


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Ok this makes no sense whatsoever in the context of my post lol so may we try again?



Your saying the US could be energy independent, I'm calling bullshit.

Your currently not energy independent and your telling your German counterparts you can fill their gaps with your own oil, figure out the rest for yourself....


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Your saying the US could be energy independent, I'm calling bullshit.
> 
> Your currently not energy independent and your telling your German counterparts you can fill their gaps with your own oil, figure out the rest for yourself....


Ok calm down bucko, my gosh. Someone pull your tail?
I said the US could be oil independent. We're not, because of choices made by the government to restrict the harvesting of oil, natural gas, etc. With the proper guidelines, regulation changes, and tax reductions, the US could be. 
And I never said anything about Germany, so idk what you're going on about there


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 4, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Ok calm down bucko, my gosh. Someone pull your tail?
> I said the US could be oil independent. We're not, because of choices made by the government to restrict the harvesting of oil, natural gas, etc. With the proper guidelines, regulation changes, and tax reductions, the US could be.
> And I never said anything about Germany, so idk what you're going on about there



The US assured Germany with the halt of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline that they would fill in Germany's energy gaps with US energy, taking your own supply away from your own needs when your currently today not energy independent.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 4, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> The US assured Germany with the halt of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline that they would fill in Germany's energy gaps with US energy, taking your own supply away from your own needs when your currently today not energy independent.


Didn't know about that, seems like a pretty dumb decision by the government. Doesn't change my point, we could be oil independent if the government put their hats on straight and got about it


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 4, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Didn't know about that, seems like a pretty dumb decision by the government. Doesn't change my point, we could be oil independent if the government put their hats on straight and got about it


Those tree huggers have always been in the way, but now at times of war, we have no other alternatives.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 4, 2022)

News for Ukraine:
Ghost of Kyiv continues, as does Reaper.  Several Ukrainian aircraft were destroyed, however, they are likely to be replaced.  Russia continues to suffer losses.  Russian aircraft are reported flying low and fast to maximize alarm and intimidation in areas they believe are free of Stingers.

Most Russian advances are facing heavy supply line destruction.  Ukrainian resistance has outmatched nearly all predictions in the West.  Fully 18% of Russian military equipment has been destroyed. 

Russian anti-war protests have continued.  Martial law is likely to be declared in Russia if it hasn't been.  Over 7000 protesters have been arrested. Most Russian citizens are now aware of the war, however, there is not likely to be any revolution as the military would crackdown on any protests.  Russian oligarchs have spoken out against Putin.  this is largely seen as theater for Western governments to demonstrate a level of democratic capacity.

Sweden and Norway are considering NATO membership further. It is likely they will be accepted.  Moldova may either join NATO or will ally with US and UK.

More weapons will be pushed into Ukraine.  Weapon shipments to be used as either resistance to invasion or insurgency.  Because of this, Russia has sought allies in Africa.  Foreign fighters are going into Ukraine. It is estimated an additional 1800 have joined, including former SAS and US special operators.

Vladimir Putin is seen as struggling on the world stage and at home in the press.  It is believed he will double down on his war with Ukraine as he has when he has errored in the past.   By imposing martial law, he can subjugate people to add to his military forces to replenish.  it is widely believed he will allow for refugeesto flee from Ukraine for a short time.

Cats from Russia are now under sanctions.  weird, but true.

Ukraine is still free.

Stay safe, stay strong.  We love and support you.


----------



## Filter (Mar 5, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Your saying the US could be energy independent, I'm calling bullshit.
> 
> Your currently not energy independent and your telling your German counterparts you can fill their gaps with your own oil, figure out the rest for yourself....


Of course we can be energy independent. The US even exports oil to other countries. Apparently, we export more petroleum than we import. It's just that trade can be more efficient and mutually beneficial for the US and its trading partners. Russia can be a good trading partner when its government isn't causing problems, but we don't_ have to_ trade with them.



Parabellum3 said:


> Those tree huggers have always been in the way, but now at times of war, we have no other alternatives.



Yup. We've imposed many restrictions on ourselves. We may be tree huggers, but we're tree huggers by choice, rather than necessity.

The dark side of this is a pervasive NIMBY (not in my back yard) sentiment, combined with oil companies and manufacturers essentially passing the pollution to countries with less environmentally-friendly policies. Exploiting loopholes. Rather than US companies polluting the air in a US city, US companies pollute the air in foreign country where they can't afford to have such strict environmental regulations. And then they pat themselves on the back, while talking about how green and progressive they are. It's a farce, and has little to do with our ability to be self-sustaining.



Miles Marsalis said:


> tually overperforming in a sense because the ruble is down to less then a cent of US dollar, debit and credit cards has become effectively useless within Russia, Russians can't do business abroad, and the Russian economy is contracting dramatically.
> 
> We need to keep the sanctions up.



I'm concerned about how this will impact the Russian people. It seems to me that the government will just impose austerity measures on the populace while channeling scarce resources to themselves and to their military complex. In the free world, hurting the people hurts the government because we're governed by the people. In a country with a ruling class like we see in 2022 Russia, the people can get thrown under the bus and the rulers aren't effected so much. While this was probably more pronounced during the Soviet era, the direction that Putin has taken the country, combined with sanctions, suggests to me the return of bread lines for ordinary people. Putin and his cronies will probably eat like kings while the typical Russian suffers. This doesn't sit well with me.

Of course what's happening in Ukraine is more urgent and troubling. It's just that Putin is to blame, not the people, and I don't know how well sanctions will really get through to him. If the people turn to him for help, he can continue to blame their problems on the West, and mention the sanctions to further prove his point.

I think Russia has more than enough natural and intellectual resources to thrive, even when functioning autonomously, but I don't think their current leadership will let that happen. They're more concerned with controlling the media and attempting to threaten and bomb their neighbors into submission.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 5, 2022)

The Chinese Wumaos are posting cringe https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/business/china-russia-ukraine-invasion.html


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Eh, China hasn't endorsed the Russian invasion of Ukraine


Perhaps we shouldn't wait for them to either do that or invade Taiwan to quarantine their shit ass, we already know their communist party is committing genocide and being generally abusive, teasing multiple other wars (got a bloody nose against the Indian military not long ago, threatened to nuke Japan).


----------



## Skittles (Mar 5, 2022)

Are you proposing throwing ordinance or sanctions at China "_Just in case_"? This sounds incredibly short sighted. Taiwan is under American protection. China invading would get them royally screwed in the butt. They know this. This is why China postures alot (Just like Russia). Seeing how terrible one of their biggest Allies are doing in the Ukrainian campaign will probably have rattled their cage too. Combine that with the fact that Russia has effectively become a pariah state in less than a week and will eventually be an economic wasteland. Pretty sure the Chinese don't want that to happen to them. Thus why they have neither condoned or condemned the assault. They don't want to be involved.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 5, 2022)

"my fellow americans... at least stop buying shit from china if they invade"

wait this is about russias evil not china evil


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 5, 2022)

Skittles said:


> Are you proposing throwing ordinance or sanctions at China "_Just in case_"? This sounds incredibly short sighted. Taiwan is under American protection. China invading would get them royally screwed in the butt. They know this. This is why China postures alot (Just like Russia). Seeing how terrible one of their biggest Allies are doing in the Ukrainian campaign will probably have rattled their cage too. Combine that with the fact that Russia has effectively become a pariah state in less than a week and will eventually be an economic wasteland. Pretty sure the Chinese don't want that to happen to them. Thus why they have neither condoned or condemned the assault. They don't want to be involved.


China has seen the US administration fail miserably in Afghanistan just the same as Russia did. That's arguably a key reason why this is happening at the moment. And if nothing else, the genocide going on under the communist rule should be enough.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 5, 2022)

i kind of agree with frank here, china is also evil,  and also has publicly stated and given censorship rules that they are the enemy of the west,  and that their messages must be pro russian, meaning they have announced support for russia's invasion and are our enemy


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> China has seen the US administration fail miserably in Afghanistan just the same as Russia did. That's arguably a key reason why this is happening at the moment. And if nothing else, the genocide going on under the communist rule should be enough.


Afghanistan is an anarchist version of America with leadership being survival of the fittest.  Everyone has their views and interpretations, but they are wildly different.  So when you fight, it's like fighting cats that have banded together under an ant doctrine.  You can't fight them symmetrically with force on force nor total asymmetrical as with a terror cell.  They were just built in such a way that fighting them is like trying to destroy a bowl of jell-o.  Whatever you do, the jell-o is going everywhere and it doesn't stop being jell-o, it just becomes more dispersed jell-o.

For a Russian who may happen on this:
China's propoganda machine continue to support Putin.  With all outlets of dissenting views gone, Putin continues to peddle lies of denazification of Ukraine.  Martial law will be declared imminently to allow for a larger force on conscripts to be forced into service of his war with Ukraine.  Calling it what it is, a war in Ukraine, will earn you 15 years in prison.  Anyone who can is urged to flee Russia.

Russia is drawing up names of families and friends of sympathizers of Ukraine in a plan of terror and intimidation.  Putin is seen as losing his grip on reality.  A $1 million US dollar reward for removal of Putin was placed by a Russian oligarch living outside Russia.  One US Senator also pushed for an assassination of Putin, but was rebuked by US Congress.

Russia money is declared nearly worthless in latest evaluation. India and China continue to attempt to circumvent sanctions and prop the currency. 
Foriegn systems such a Paypal, apple pay, google pay, etc, and cryptocurrency are being shut off from Russia.  Transfers are being blocked by cyberanalysts in the West.  Cryptocurrency that cannot be stopped is being targetted by several groups and, when possible, transferred to Ukraine.  Expect continued diffculties in payments and money for commissions to get exponentially worse as several Western governments may start prohibiting money transfers to prevent new funds from entering and supporting Putin's government.

Putin has broken a cease-fire on humanitarian evacuation routes in Ukraine by actively targetting fleeing Ukrainian civilians and children  evacuating from combat areas.  The cease-fire lasted less than two hours before Russian military forces violated the action on unarmed people.

The situation appears to be deteriorating.  Stay safe, stay well.


----------



## Lenago (Mar 5, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Afghanistan is an anarchist version of America with leadership being survival of the fittest.  Everyone has their views and interpretations, but they are wildly different.  So when you fight, it's like fighting cats that have banded together under an ant doctrine.  You can't fight them symmetrically with force on force nor total asymmetrical as with a terror cell.  They were just built in such a way that fighting them is like trying to destroy a bowl of jell-o.  Whatever you do, the jell-o is going everywhere and it doesn't stop being jell-o, it just becomes more dispersed jell-o.
> 
> For a Russian who may happen on this:
> China's propoganda machine continue to support Putin.  With all outlets of dissenting views gone, Putin continues to peddle lies of denazification of Ukraine.  Martial law will be declared imminently to allow for a larger force on conscripts to be forced into service of his war with Ukraine.  Calling it what it is, a war in Ukraine, will earn you 15 years in prison.  Anyone who can is urged to flee Russia.
> ...


Wan'nt there a video about a russian oligarch getting punched by another during a meeting after making that request?

I saw a video yesterday, not sure if its the same person though


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

lenago said:


> Wan'nt there a video about a russian oligarch getting punched by another during a meeting after making that request?
> 
> I saw a video yesterday, not sure if its the same person though


It is a recirculation of a 2011 video that is being used as propoganda.


----------



## Lenago (Mar 5, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> It is a recirculation of a 2011 video that is being used as propoganda.


Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

For Ukraine
Reaper of Ukraine has possibly taken out a regional commander and division commander.  so far, Ukraine has killed four high profile military leaders.

The fire is apparently out at the nuclear facility.

Humanitarian aid is impaired, however, there are ideas on how to securely get more aid into the cities.

Wish I had more.  Stay safe, stay well.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 5, 2022)

Sharg said:


> Not so with the Zelenskyy government. This government has openly expressed support for not only joining NATO but also for acquiring nukes. A missile base in Ukraine could launch a nuclear weapon at Moscow and hit it in 3 to 5 minutes, before the launch could be detected and intercepted. This directly threatens the entirety of Russia, so they are forced to intervene. In many ways, this is a reverse Cuban missile crisis and I don't recall our government talking about Cuba's sovereignty and allowing them to place Soviet missile bases in their country.


But the nuclear-tipped Iskander rockets in Kalinigrad are fine, right?


----------



## Sharg (Mar 5, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> But the nuclear-tipped Iskander rockets in Kalinigrad are fine, right?


They can hit a number of NATO allies, but would not be able to completely behead the alliance, like having NATO missiles in Ukraine would be able to do to Russia. A threat, yes, but not a life or death situation.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Why do you think Russia waited to invade until after the Olympics was over?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean, we've been 86% to 91% self-sufficient in terms of total energy consumption since 2016 and we've been a net exporter of refined petroleum since 2011. There might been some short-term pain, but long-term we can compensate for it here the States. Arguably, this is why we're far less supportive of Saudis now and why Venezuela has been experiencing severe economic problems; we don't need them for our energy needs anymore. 

That was probably why there was political will to cancel the Keystone XL pipeline in the first place.

That factoid out way, I told you it's immaterial at this point whether China helps Russia evade the sanctions or not. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/economy/china-cant-help-russia-sanctions-fallout-intl-hnk/index.html

There are reasons for this that should've occurred you:

1. The sanctions currently put in place severely constraint China's ability to help Russia in any meaningful, because international transactions through SWIFT and international payment processors have left Russia with almost no way to large payments (or small payments, for that matter) in or out of the country. Anyone with banking experience knows how problematic being kicked off SWIFT is; you can't do business with the world, basically. 

This means that China doesn't really have a way to send funds that could aid the Russian economy and with SWIFT down in Russia, the Russian government doesn't have a practical way of deploying those funds to keep their economy or government afloat. 

There has been speculation that China could use CIPS to as a workaround for SWIFT, but that plans is dead on arrival: 



> "Some commentators have suggested that China's CIPS could be used as an alternative by Russia, now that seven Russian banks have been removed from SWIFT.
> But CIPS is much smaller in size. It has only 75 direct participating banks, compared with more than 11,000 member institutions in SWIFT. About 300 Russian financial institutions are in SWIFT, while only two dozen Russian banks are connected to CIPS.
> The yuan is also not freely convertible, and is used less frequently than other major currencies in international trade. It accounted for 3% of payments globally in January, compared with 40% in the dollar, according to SWIFT. Even China-Russia trade has been dominated by the dollar and euro.
> "In practice, because CIPS is limited to payments in [yuan], it is only currently used for transactions with China. Banks elsewhere are unlikely to turn to CIPS as a SWIFT workaround while Russia is an international pariah," Williams said."



2. As I mentioned before, and what you conveniently overlooked, China also isn't an adequate substitute as provider of key technologies the Russia economy and military needs either. The United States was actually a major supplier of these technologies to Russia, but Biden included restrictions to technological exports to Russia in the sanctions already passed. Specifically:



> "
> Russia imports mostly low-end computer chips from China, which are used in cars and home appliances. Both Russia and China rely on the United States for high-end chips needed for advanced weapons systems.
> "China alone can't supply all of Russia's critical needs for the military," a senior US administration official said at a media briefing last week, according to Reuters. "China doesn't have any production of the most advanced technology nodes. So Russia and China are both reliant on other supplier countries and of course US technology to meet their needs."
> That could lead Chinese tech companies — particularly larger ones — to exercise even more caution in potential deals with Russia.
> "Some small Chinese firms that do not depend on US inputs may backfill some of Russia's demand for sanctioned US technology," said Thomas from Eurasia Group. "But big Chinese tech firms will be cautious to avoid the fate of Huawei, which the US government stunted by cutting its access to advanced semiconductors," he added."



The sanctions involving technological exports will cripple Russia; look the effect the semiconductor shortage has had during the pandemic. The Russian economy is highly dependent on these exports, as is the Russian military.

3. One of the biggest problems Russia faces is that the ruble has been sinking like a stone and this has severely diminished the Russian government's and its citizens purchasing power. This means it will be prohibitively expensive for the Chinese government to stimulate the Russian economy through trade when combined with Russia's lack of access to SWIFT. 

Also, it's worth noting that China technically benefits in certain regards from letting the Russian economy flounder because they can build up goodwill with the West (which can do more for them than Russia) and they can buy up Russian assets at reduced cost after the sanctions are lifted, especially in Siberia where they have been purchasing future farmland, 

So there is an incentive structure in place for China not helping Russia.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 5, 2022)

Sharg appearing out of nowhere having posted nothing for 2 whole years? 

President Zelenskyy of Ukraine is a native Russian speaker and Jew; the idea that Ukraine is a nation riddled with neo-Nazism, that is trying to suppress the Russian language, clearly requires a handful of salt. 

I fact checked claims that Poroshenko forbade the representation of Russian in media. I would describe these as 'partially false'. Laws changed recently that required that a majority of public broadcasts to be held in Ukrainian- with devolved powers given to different regions of Ukraine. 
This is a language policy that can probably be described as more liberal than that of France, where significant minority languages include Breton and Occitan. Not exactly a justification for shelling Paris. 

I cannot find any reliable source to corroborate sharg's claim that President Zelenskyy sought to acquire nuclear weapons. 

Sharg's comments in general are predicated on a false equivalence. He portrays Ukrainian resistance to their sovereign territory being annexed in 2014 as an act of oppression, and then claims it means Russia's renewed attempts to seize the entirety of Ukraine are a justified tit-for-tat response.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Perhaps we shouldn't wait for them to either do that or invade Taiwan to quarantine their shit ass, we already know their communist party is committing genocide and being generally abusive, teasing multiple other wars (got a bloody nose against the Indian military not long ago, threatened to nuke Japan).


My point was that the Chinese government very much doesn't want to get involved in the Ukraine crisis and with what they see as a Russian matter. Furthermore, Taiwan is under the protection of US forces in a way that Ukraine wasn't. We have political commitments and strategic incentives to protect Taiwan and we have military presence in the country, which was actually quietly double last year.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 5, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Sharg appearing out of nowhere having posted nothing for 2 whole years?
> 
> President Zelenskyy of Ukraine is a native Russian speaker and Jew; the idea that Ukraine is a nation riddled with neo-Nazism, that is trying to suppress the Russian language, clearly requires a handful of salt.
> 
> ...


so, they are the bot i think they are then?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 5, 2022)

I feel like a 'support for Ukraine' thread would have maybe been a better thread to host.
Some of the content shared here has been grotesque- thankfully Flamingo has removed a lot of it, 
but more recently an insidious type of content that attempts to undermine the case for sanctions, or to justify violence against the Ukrainian people, is being posted- and this risks flying 'under the radar' because it is not immediately obvious to staff whether they should intervene. 

I believe I found the wikipedia article for the Odessa Trades Union Building Fire, which Sharg claimed was 'not reported' in the West. 
Major news networks that covered these events included the BBC.








						2014 Odessa clashes - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Sharg's description of this event can be described as a 'Lie by omission', neglecting many important details and uncertainties in order to establish a narrative, rather than truthfully recall the events. 




Minerva_Minx said:


> Sweden and Norway are considering NATO membership further. It is likely they will be accepted.  Moldova may either join NATO or will ally with US and UK.



Norway was a founding member of NATO; do you mean Finland?




ben909 said:


> so, they are the bot i think they are then?



I would not rush to a conclusion like that. What is true, from the cross-checking I have done, is that they are distorting the truth or omitting parts of the truth, creating a narrative of events that are much more sympathetic to the Kremlin's desires than reality is. 

Maybe sharg believes this because they have watched youtube channels which promote those narratives, and have not put in the background leg-work to check whether the stories are true. 

For example, it didn't take me long to find major newspaper articles about events sharg claimed were deliberately not reported in Western media:








						How did Odessa's fire happen?
					

A look at the events in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on 2 May, when 46 people were killed in violence between pro-Ukrainian protesters and pro-Russian rivals, most of them in a fire.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Norway was a founding member of NATO; do you mean Finland?


Fuck me I am off my game this week...


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Filter said:


> I'm concerned about how this will impact the Russian people. It seems to me that the government will just impose austerity measures on the populace while channeling scarce resources to themselves and to their military complex. In the free world, hurting the people hurts the government because we're governed by the people. In a country with a ruling class like we see in 2022 Russia, the people can get thrown under the bus and the rulers aren't effected so much. While this was probably more pronounced during the Soviet era, the direction that Putin has taken the country, combined with sanctions, suggests to me the return of bread lines for ordinary people. Putin and his cronies will probably eat like kings while the typical Russian suffers. This doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> Of course what's happening in Ukraine is more urgent and troubling. It's just that Putin is to blame, not the people, and I don't know how well sanctions will really get through to him. If the people turn to him for help, he can continue to blame their problems on the West, and mention the sanctions to further prove his point.
> 
> I think Russia has more than enough natural and intellectual resources to thrive, even when functioning autonomously, but I don't think their current leadership will let that happen. They're more concerned with controlling the media and attempting to threaten and bomb their neighbors into submission.


I'd argue that the sanctions targeting the Russian people necessary because they're exerting pressure on government and Putin to end this conflict in Ukraine, where thousands have died over the last 8 years, many of them civilians. 

Sanctions just targeting the "ruling class", namely Putin, the goverment officials loyal to him, and the oligarchs who facilitate his power, can be evaded with some restructuring and by putting assets under other parties' nominal ownership, though there have never been aggressive asset seizures like what is happening now around the world with the oligarchs. 

Sanctions affecting the Russian people which hamper their abilities to get and move money aren't pleasant for them, but they will push the Russian people towards take corrective action against their government (which is currently killing Ukrainians in their own country by the day) and degrade the Russian government to make war against the Ukrainians or our governments (which Putin has implicitly threatened with nuclear weapons). 

The fact that most of the country has been plunged in economic turmoil is something that Putin and his government can't ignore over the long-term even he is remotely interested in maintaining power. The longer the economic pain persists for regular Russians, more they will question their government, protest against it, and push for change (particularly when the government doesn't help them, partially because it has no means or funds to).

These sanctions will cause suffering to the Russian people, but we're at a point in the West where we're watching a democratic country be invaded by authoritarian regime, we're being threatened with nuclear strikes, and it's become a possibility that another world war can happen. 

The Russian people being inconvenienced doesn't outweigh those very real threats.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

I ran into this.  Hilarious if true.








						Russia Reportedly Considers Labeling Furries As Extremist Group
					

The reason people are speculating for it is also mind boggling.




					wegotthiscovered.com


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 5, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I ran into this.  Hilarious if true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's because most Russian furry artists are pro-Ukraine. Unsurprising.


----------



## Punji (Mar 5, 2022)

Without fully reading the thread and not directing anything at anyone in particular...

The conduct within this thread is disappointing. It exemplifies exactly why _furries _should not discuss politics. Ganging up on users, cheering on censorship, denouncing entire nations as "evil" based solely on what news media claims, blaming the people within these nations who have literally no part of the political endeavours, citing exclusively secondary and tertiary sources at best, kissing up to moderation, discussing blatantly unrelated political beefs, effectively shitposting, and flat out bullying. Not to mention the fear-mongering and justifications for violence and prejudice.

Exactly why does anyone think the politics subforum was removed?


----------



## ben909 (Mar 5, 2022)

so far hasn't this thread remained civil though


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 5, 2022)

ben909 said:


> so far hasn't this thread remained civil though



The thread in general has been fairly distasteful imo. People have been linking to gore, random accounts that were once idle suddenly jump in again when there's opportunity to make things spicy for themselves, and even making/posting memes about the situation. Lots of unchecked fact spewing and speculation, booing and cheering like it's some kind of sports game, etc etc.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 5, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> The thread in general has been fairly distasteful imo. People have been linking to gore, random accounts that were once idle suddenly jump in again when there's opportunity to make things spicy for themselves, and even making/posting memes about the situation. Lots of unchecked fact spewing and speculation, booing and cheering like it's some kind of sports game, etc etc.


still compared to the old politics section its not even close


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 5, 2022)

ben909 said:


> still compared to the old politics section its not even close


Just because no one has called anyones mother fat doesn't mean the content is still respectful or even appropriate.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 5, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Just because no one has called anyones mother fat doesn't mean the content is still respectful or even appropriate.


i guess


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 5, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Just because no one has called anyones mother fat doesn't mean the content is still respectful or even appropriate.


If ya don't like it, no one's stopping you from going^^


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 5, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> If ya don't like it, no one's stopping you from going^^


Or I can just report the offending comments and wait for it to get removed.
I already have my own thread for this and it's doing just fine. XD


----------



## Attaman (Mar 5, 2022)

The slew of memes and at times non-existent filter to check sources before posting remain issues, agreed.

Efforts so far to try turn this into an anti-NATO / -EU / -UN platform have been shut down fairly quickly (which admittedly may be why _some_ people are upset), likewise efforts to tie this into US / UK politics (either current leaders or previous administrations), so that's been a plus. Likewise the gore very much _was_ an issue, but since Flamingo started putting their foot down that's been better. And barring a handful of posts, people have generally done fairly well not to pin this on the general Russian population.

But from start to present we've had a fair deal of content that comes down to "Meme-posts" or "Unverified Tweets".


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

If I do it, call me out on it please.  I have bad gallows humor and can get carried away.  I apologize if I did it before.

I am attempting to keep this to yahoo news, reuters, and AP, ADSB exchange as much as possible.  And yes, I screw up countries and info.  I don't sleep much.

But please call me out (as a few have), I don't mind.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Punji said:


> Without fully reading the thread and not directing anything at anyone in particular...
> 
> The conduct within this thread is disappointing. It exemplifies exactly why _furries _should not discuss politics. Ganging up on users, cheering on censorship, denouncing entire nations as "evil" based solely on what news media claims, blaming the people within these nations who have literally no part of the political endeavours, citing exclusively secondary and tertiary sources at best, kissing up to moderation, discussing blatantly unrelated political beefs, effectively shitposting, and flat out bullying. Not to mention the fear-mongering and justifications for violence and prejudice.
> 
> Exactly why does anyone think the politics subforum was removed?


Might want to actually read the thread fully before making comments like this, while the meme posts, graphic pictures, and armchair military analysis from people who have never served in any capacity is unnecessary, there hasn't been demonizing of Russian citizens by users supporting Ukraine during an invasion they didn't deserve.

There has also been recognition that the sanctions will be devastating, are devastating, for the Russian people and sympathy for them.

Furthermore, no one to my eye has been cheering on censorship, unless you count people being relieved that Russian propaganda trying whitewash what is happening in Ukraine and to their own people. Because 8000 Russians to date have been arrested for the crime of protesting against the war, by their government's own admission. Russia has also shut down the free press there along with Facebook and Twitter.

Is that the censorship you are talking about?

And let's not forget that there are journalists on the ground right now in Ukraine risking their lives to cover the conflict,  one of whom was shot today by Russian forces. 

So there are reliable relayers of information on the ground, if you care to look.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, we've been 86% to 91% self-sufficient in terms of total energy consumption since 2016 and we've been a net exporter of refined petroleum since 2011. There might been some short-term pain, but long-term we can compensate for it here the States. Arguably, this is why we're far less supportive of Saudis now and why Venezuela has been experiencing severe economic problems; we don't need them for our energy needs anymore.
> 
> That was probably why there was political will to cancel the Keystone XL pipeline in the first place.
> 
> ...



The SWIFT sanctions haven't even cut out the big Russian banks yet, only a few have been effect.It's irrelevant either way as Russia already has an alternative to SWIFT with China (CIPS)


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

CIPS (Cross-border Interbank Payment System) was designed to make the Chinese Yuan (reimenbi?) a de facto currency of business on par with the USD.  A significant problem with CIPS is it cannot handle to volume of data SWIFT can and it is underpinned by SWIFT because China is underpinned by SWIFT (USD). 

What I would look for besides the People's Bank of China to take a turn in the news is Credit Suisse.  If Credit Suisse becomes big news, a lot of financial damage may well be in play.

The biggest singular effect of sanctions isn't the damage to the economy or stock market of Russia, though that is huge.  It's the fact that the common every day person doesn't realize or understand banks have nearly $0.  None.  Nothing.  I can go to my bank on Monday and take a photo of an empty vault.  So when you devalu currency and start a panic, people went to every atm they could to get money.  They went to banks to get money.  There's just nothing there besides what is needed for day to day.  Now physical money is scarce and no one is processing digital currency.  That's the devastation.  Visa, Mastercard, American Express - all worked to allow transactions in Russia and then ripped out to avoid sanctions.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Clearly you missed the news today, because the Russian government banned Facebook and Twitter today along with passing provisions that effectively closed the free independent press in Russia.
> 
> Also, the Russian plan for Sphere specifically includes capabilities for surveilling users of the service.
> 
> ...


Well, I wasn't talking about Facebook and other social media outlets, Comrade (in my postings above)...... I'm merely talking about *here* on this forum.... seeing that: as far as I can tell..... I see no Russian conspiracy on here (in particular) to read between the lines of little soundbites on these text boxes we create..... and thus, my point was is that *on here* at least.... I see no issues in that regard to not be fearful in expressing one's opinions.... (shrug).


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> The SWIFT sanctions haven't even cut out the big Russian banks yet, only a few have been effect.It's irrelevant either way as Russia already has an alternative to SWIFT with China (CIPS)


The major banks have been sanctioned, with more sanctions incoming. The extant sanctions have already had a deleterious effect on the economy and people there.

I already  mentioned how the CIPS system can't meet Russian needs, which you could read aaboutin technical detail in the article I linked


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well, I wasn't talking about Facebook and other social media outlets, Comrade (in my postings above)...... I'm merely talking about *here* on this forum.... seeing that: as far as I can tell..... I see no Russian conspiracy on here (in particular) to read between the lines of little soundbites on these text boxes we create..... and thus, my point was is that *on here* at least.... I see no issues in that regard to not be fearful in expressing one's opinions....


I suggest reading what you quoted more carefully, remembering that I mentioned no conspiracy on here, and losing the comrade.


----------



## Punji (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Might want to actually read the thread fully before making comments like this, while the meme posts, graphic pictures, and armchair military analysis from people who have never served in any capacity is unnecessary, there hasn't been demonizing of Russian citizens by users supporting Ukraine during an invasion they didn't deserve.
> 
> There has also been recognition that the sanctions will be devastating, are devastating, for the Russian people and sympathy for them.
> 
> ...


I tend to not care for politics myself, much less so on a furry forum I come to for other reasons. Half of what I listed I saw skimming through a single page of the thread, I don't really need to read every single word. It's all there and I didn't exactly have to look for it. Nice cherry-picking of these select few issues though. Doesn't this kind of imply the remaining issues are uncontested?

This is not the censorship I'm referring to. I don't really want to put anyone in the spotlight and cause more drama in a thread that probably shouldn't have made it this far, but take a casual scroll back and I'm sure you'll find it. This is true of the rest.

The journalists and "journalists" aren't doing so out of the kindness of their hearts showing the exact truth as it exactly is. It's about money and views and pathological manipulation just like most major media networks have been doing forever. Moreso there is not a single person in the world without a bias and it's foolish to think anyone reporting on the events of a highly-publicized war wouldn't have some stake it in somewhere.

Now, if that is rightly all I shall return to the shadows from whence I came. Hopefully by talking about the perceived issues there will be a greater consciousness of them. Adios, compadre.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Punji said:


> I tend to not care for politics myself, much less so on a furry forum I come to for other reasons. Half of what I listed I saw skimming through a single page of the thread, I don't really need to read every single word. It's all there and I didn't exactly have to look for it. Nice cherry-picking of these select few issues though. Doesn't this kind of imply the remaining issues are uncontested?
> 
> This is not the censorship I'm referring to. I don't really want to put anyone in the spotlight and cause more drama in a thread that probably shouldn't have made it this far, but take a casual scroll back and I'm sure you'll find it. This is true of the rest.
> 
> ...


I'd say that there are easier ways to make money and regardless of their motives, the journalists on the ground are risking  their lives to show the suffering the Ukrainians are enduring and atrocities the Russian military is committing.

It's interesting you can't list specific examples, though.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> remembering that I mentioned no conspiracy on here, and losing the comrade.


Okay... I'll use compadre like this guy here, cool ?


Punji said:


> Adios, compadre.


In any case.... there's nothing to fear on this forum, far as I can tell. (shrug).


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Apparently that  is funny.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 5, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> System of Operational-Investigatory Measures (SORM).  I think it stores 12 hours of data.   Look for locked room with 1.5m square or rectangular box.  light on fire.


@Minerva_Minx Well, in regards to your statement (which I just saw)...... frankly - it does not compute to me Miss.... in spite of us coyotes being rather intelligent and rather crafty creatures ourselves - even when birdies are hovering over us. 





→ In any case...... if there's proof that such a thing exists.... *I seriously doubt* that such a system is being utilized on this forum..... (shrug). I'll go now... as I need to "fire up" my microwave in a couple of minutes though, as lunch soon calls.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 5, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> an insidious type of content that attempts to undermine the case for sanctions and this risks flying 'under the radar' because it is not immediately obvious to staff whether they should intervene.


In the name of what should staff intervene because people make arguments against one particular type of measure, exactly?


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

Spoiler














SORM is a data tapping device.  Think these are kinda good pictures.
Uh, yay, wikileaks?  Go team?

It's techcrunch








						Documents reveal how Russia wiretaps phone companies
					

In cities across Russia, large boxes in locked rooms are directly connected to the networks of some of the country’s largest phone and internet companies. These boxes, some the size of a washing machine, house equipment that gives the Russian security services access to the calls and messages of...




					techcrunch.com


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, we've been 86% to 91% self-sufficient in terms of total energy consumption since 2016 and we've been a net exporter of refined petroleum since 2011. There might been some short-term pain, but long-term we can compensate for it here the States. Arguably, this is why we're far less supportive of Saudis now and why Venezuela has been experiencing severe economic problems; we don't need them for our energy needs anymore.
> 
> That was probably why there was political will to cancel the Keystone XL pipeline in the first place.
> 
> ...




And also Wikipedia isn't your best source btw....

You guys import over 200k barrels of oil per day from Russia, and that only accounts for 3% of your imported crude, the bulk comes from us actually.









						Oil and Petroleum Imports from Russia Explained - Updated*
					

Russian crude oil accounts for just three percent of U.S. crude oil imports and about one percent of total crude oil processed by U.S. refineries. Even still, Russian crude oil imports are important to refineries on the West Coast and Gulf Coast for some distinct reasons. Read more on this topic...




					www.afpm.org
				





Filter said:


> Of course we can be energy independent. The US even exports oil to other countries. Apparently, we export more petroleum than we import. It's just that trade can be more efficient and mutually beneficial for the US and its trading partners. Russia can be a good trading partner when its government isn't causing problems, but we don't_ have to_ trade with them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*I'm just tagging you both in this*

Furthermore even if you were to halt export to try and achieve independence (highly unlikely), the price of energy doesn't exsist in a vacuum, you would exacerbate the increase as producers would be locked on global market price.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 5, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Ok calm down bucko, my gosh. Someone pull your tail?



This actually made me smile btw xD


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 5, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> The major banks have been sanctioned, with more sanctions incoming. The extant sanctions have already had a deleterious effect on the economy and people there.
> 
> I already  mentioned how the CIPS system can't meet Russian needs, which you could read aaboutin technical detail in the article I linked



Literally the important one's that handle energy settlement have not been booted from SWIFT, wouldn't matter even if they did, China, India, and Pakistan will gobble up what Europe doesn't want.

Your CNN article?
Lol

CIPS would only require the countries involved to be direct participants in such trade, they now have full incentive to do so with Western sabre rattling.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

Oh, I looked back and it appears I did inadvertently cause offense.  I apologize.  I will refrain from approaching the line.

I forget my audiemce at times.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

Thay aside, we've lost contact with a lot of Ukranian artists, but I'd say a lot more Russian artists are going offline.

This war is probably the first war in history where people in it halfway around the world are communicating with everyone outside through internet.

To everyone in Ukraine, stay safe, stay well.  
To those in Russia, stay safe, stay positive.
To everyone, remember we're in this together.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> And also Wikipedia isn't your best source btw....
> 
> You guys import over 200k barrels of oil per day from Russia, and that only accounts for 3% of your imported crude, the bulk comes from us actually.
> 
> ...


I mean, there'll be short term economic pain regarding the energy prices, I agree with you there. (Also, I freely admit I can't quote energy independence statistics like my ex could off the top of her head, hence Wikipedia which does draw from legitimate sources for the article.)

But the main sanctions against Russia, from the US, aren't against the energy sector mainly; 1% of Russian oil exports come here.

But in the long-term, we'd be able to meet our needs domestically or, worst case scenario, rely on our friends in Alberta to shore up our supply.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 5, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Literally the important one's that handle energy settlement have not been booted from SWIFT, wouldn't matter even if they did, China, India, and Pakistan will gobble up what Europe doesn't want.
> 
> Your CNN article?
> Lol
> ...


Integrating the Russian economy, most importantly Russian businesses, with CIPS would take years under the best circumstances, which aren't happening. 

There are banks in China lobbying the CCP to not allow Russia to use CIPS because it wouldn't be economically profitable to do so and the sanctions they and China would risk.

Understand that there is infrastructure that would need to be put in place for businesses and the government to use CIPS.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 5, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Sweden and Norway are considering NATO membership further. It is likely they will be accepted. Moldova may either join NATO or will ally with US and UK.


I fear Putler will completely flip since the last thing he wants is for a NATO country to be next to Russia.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 5, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> I fear Putler will completely flip since the last thing he wants is for a NATO country to be next to Russia.



Molon labe et momento mori.  Sic semper tyrannis.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 6, 2022)

There's one other point about Putin's Regime I like to discuss. What he made modern Russia to be is no a revial of the Soviet Union nor a form of Comunism like some here suggested. Communism is a left Wing authoritarian system with planned economy and extreme atheist views. Putin's Russia has none of these. But they meet nearly all signs of fascism. Facism is a form of right wing unltra Nationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society. The term was derived from the italian _fascio_, meaning 'bundle of sticks'. It was used as an allegory for a system bound by a strong ideological narrative while simultaneously closing of to the outside in an agressive and hostile way. Typically this identity is build around cultural or racial superiority. And this is excatly what putin did. And I can show you by reference of these 14 red flags:

*1. Powerful and continuing nationalism*

_Putin often refered to Russias history to accentuate his position and claim of power. He uses symbols of both the sowiet and tsaristic mixing them into a neo imperialistic view. And He often talked about rising Russia from it's knees bringing it back to it's former glory of a world super power, on par the China and USA._

*2. Disdain for human rights*

_Just like in China Putin Russia shows little to no regard of personal freedom or Human lifes. These not in line with the cultural norms get persecuted, or face draconic punishments._

*3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
*
_Putin declared Europe and NATO as the outer enemies of Russian ambitions while LGBTQs and Liberal thinkers served as inner enemies striving to undermine the traditional russian identity._

*4. Supremacy of the military*

_It's basicly what we see now in the Ukraine, whe Putin likes to show the world how Russia is able to take what it likes by force._

*5. Rampant sexism*

_Goes hand in hand with the declaration of LGBTQs as enemy of russian values. While at the same time promotin a chauvinistic hypermasculinity._

*6. Controlled mass media*

_Even before there was hardly any indipendant media in Russia. Now every journalist gets threatened with up to 15 years of labour camp when they report something unwanted about the russian military and the war._

*7. Obsession with national security*

_Putin always claimed that NATO and the West was trying to outplay Russia encircling him and his sphere of influence._

*8. Religion and government intertwined*

_The Russian Othodox Church was declared as state religion with patriarch kyrill often promoting Putins claim of power in exchange for their own influence in Russian society. Kyrill also proclaimed putin to be a modern crusader for christian values other denominations of christianity already had forgotten._

*9. Corporate power protected*

_Putin's base of power is based on the oligarchs and bunch of finlfy rich tycoons protected by the kremlin while they indulge in all kinds of shady bussiness and corruption. In return they act like the Lords and Counts in a feudalism monarchy, keeping Putin in power._

*10. Labor power suppressed -

11. Disdain for intellectuals & the arts -

12. Obsession with crime & punishment*

_Russian security forces are infamous for theird harsh treatment of even smaller criminals or crack downs on protestors. Detained people talk about various forms of battering, ill-treatment or even torture. In 2012 the Kremlin also deployed a para militaristic police force called OMOH used to surpress possible uprisings against the kremlin elite._

*13. Rampant cronyism & corruption*

_The Oligarch system once was discribed as a kleptocracy where structures of organized crime got laced into the verry powerstructure of the government._

*14. Fraudulent elections*

Putin once discribed his political system as directed democracy. There's no real opposition to his own political party. And there are also no such things as open political TV debates. There are hardly any election observers and several irregular cases of double voting are not just purposefully overlooked but deliberately carried out by the regime. In 2012 for exemple there have been reports about busses of voters which were driven back and forth between several polling stations giving their votes multiple times in different locations.

So that's basicly 12 of 14 signs served.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 6, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> System of Operational-Investigatory Measures (SORM).  I think it stores 12 hours of data.   Look for locked room with 1.5m square or rectangular box.





Connor J. Coyote said:


> @Minerva_Minx Well, in regards to your statement (which I just saw)...... frankly - it does not compute to me Miss.... in spite of us coyotes being rather intelligent and rather crafty creatures ourselves - even when birdies are hovering over us.


Well..... when I don't know enough about something (that someone mentions to me on here) I research and read about it some more, to learn more about it. And.... one thing I always do is admit when I make a mistake on here.... because well, I'm such a laudable yote.

But.... in any case, according to the sources of information I saw - with "SORM" - there are three known programs: SORM-1, SORM-2, and SORM-3; that provide the foundation of Russian mass communications surveillance. The articles state: _"Russian law gives Russia’s security service - "the FSB", the authority to use SORM - to collect, analyze and store all data transmitted or received on Russian networks, including calls, email, website visits and credit card transactions"._

So...... the key takeaway I see here in this information is the term "Russian networks". Thus, if a user on here is utilizing a various throwaway account (if they wish) and in turn, perhaps using a non-true IP address as well, (like I always use)☺.... then, frankly - I see no real danger myself in any user expressing his/her opinions on the situation at hand over there.

And so..... whilst I'm not trying to minimize the concerns people raised on here about this system - (but, in my mind): when we take the fact that, according to data published by Russia’s Supreme Court, almost 540,000 intercepts of phone and internet traffic were authorized in 2012 (the year that information in this article was available).

And so, if these facts alone (are true) then, they're certainly a red flag, I agree.... *but* (on the flip side of that) - if we take into account the literally *millions* of Russian citizens and their friends, (both over there and abroad, in places like here).... statistically I'd say: that's practically nothing.

It doesn't mean it's not a factor people should be concerned about....... but - I doubt the FSB is reading the "Community Section" on this forum right now..... if they did - I'd very surprised.

Thus, given that - I stand by my statements earlier..... in that, one need not censor themselves on here in order to fully express their opinions.... unless of course, there's other users on here that can produce evidence to the contrary that this surveillance is indeed occurring.

There's a difference between being cautious and just being paranoid.

So... "have at it" and don't hold back on expressing yourself on here, that's _still_ my advice.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 6, 2022)

An author I follow relayed a letter from a few of his friend in Ukraine and I thought was worth sharing with other creators, regardless of where they are. I've donated with a few friends to the links listed and can vouch for them, but encourage people to only give if comfortable and learn about the missions of organizations enumerated below for their own edification.





__





						A letter from Ukrainian artists to the world artists - Charlie's Diary
					





					www.antipope.org
				




(_Charlie here. I received this open letter from my Ukrainian translator, who I can vouch for. I am republishing it here, in full and unaltered, with permission. I have not fact-checked the contents but have no reason to doubt them. Comments on this blog entry are disabled for reasons that I think should be obvious._)


On Thursday, February 24th the Russian Federation declared war on Ukraine and attacked our country. As we write this letter, the army of the aggressor nation kills our children, bombs cities and civilians, and has already turned more than 835,000 Ukrainians into refugees. In an attempt to further occupy our lands, Russia at the same time uses aggressive propaganda to justify its war crimes. Russian citizens are consistently being lied to about what is really happening in Ukraine.
We believe that not all Russian citizens are fans of Putin's regime and not all of them justify this war. We know that plenty of Russians feel scared to use their voices and speak up against Putin's regime. Many believe it is none of their business. Yet, there are also many who believe in the righteousness of Putin and his propaganda.
So, we plead with you -- writers and visual content creators that have big audiences of readers and followers in Russia. To them, your opinion and your words matter. Your stand on the war in Ukraine matters. Please, stand by us as we fight for our values, our democracy, and our freedom. For the simple right to be Ukrainians and live in Ukraine. Your powerful voices can influence these Russian readers and followers. To encourage them to be brave, connect with their values, and take a stand on ending this ruthless war.
Please, take to your platforms and address your Russian and Ukrainian audiences. The first ones need your encouragement to believe in the power of their voices against Putin's regime. The second ones are in desperate need of support and kindness.
We encourage the international community of fans of science fiction&fantasy, writers, artists, editors to boycott the Russian book market until the war in Ukraine ends and the country is free from Russian occupation. Until Putin's regime is condemned as criminal and Putin and his closest allies are punished. As Ukrainians, we are working on this to happen day and night but there are bureaucratic procedures that make the process so much slower in critical times where every second counts and can save Ukrainian lives.

Here are ways in which you can help our country:

Please, reroute the funds received from Russia to either of the Ukrainian charity foundations that take care of refugees and restore what was ruined by Russia:



> https://eu-ua.com/
> https://donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/ua/donate/~my-donation?_cv=1a
> https://ua-aid-centers.com/#features
> https://tabletochki.org/
> ...



If possible, terminate contracts and collaborations with Russian publishers. Do not let them use the money they earn on publishing your work to fund the war in Ukraine.
Publicly denounce any further collaboration with Russia until it stops its aggression.



> I will add that the following writers have already supported us by announcing a complete refusal to cooperate with the Russian Federation:
> Jakub Ćwiek
> Jarosław Grzędowicz
> Marcin A. Guzek
> ...


It is of paramount importance for these actions to be made public. This will allow your readers to learn about your stand on the war in Ukraine and help those content creators who are still hesitant about condemning Russia's aggression to take a stand, too.
It goes without saying that either of these actions is an act coming out of free will. We are grateful for any support. We are sure that the war that currently unfolds in the middle of Europe is not only Ukraine's war. This is the war aimed at undermining and destroying the values of free civilizations. In times of peace, we guard these values via our novels, art, songs. Alas, this is not enough in times of war.
If you are not sure you have enough information to make an informed decision on taking a stand on what is currently happening in Ukraine, please see these resources.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/
https://kyivindependent.com/
https://t.me/ukraine4world
If you have any questions, we are willing to provide you with answers. There can be delays in answering as many of us are often hiding in shelters from active bombing. Others rely on very unstable internet and phone connections while keeping in touch in these days of the war. There can be delays in responses, we apologize in advance.
Also, it is important to note that neither of us, the authors of this letter need any urgent help. It is our country that is in a state of a humanitarian crisis, desperately seeking support and allies.
When taking to your platforms and speaking about Ukraine and war in our country, please use these tags.
#SFaccessdenied #StopBusinessInrussia #StopFundTheWar #StandWithUkraine
Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Thank you for your support.


> Volodymyr Arenev, writer
> Olena  Hlushchenko, social activist
> Sergij Legeza, translator
> Alisa Lindeman, writer, screenwriter
> ...




The National Bank of Ukraine has opened an account for humanitarian aid to Ukrainians affected by Russian aggression. The account will be used to credit charitable assistance from Ukraine and abroad. The Ministry of Social Policy will use the funds raised to provide support to the citizens of Ukraine who suffer the most from the war.
*The National Bank`s of Ukraine Accounts*
Multicurrency UA823000010000032302338301027

*EUR account*
BENEFICIARY: Ministry of Social Policy of Ukraine

BENEFICIARY BIC: NBUAUAUXXXX IBAN DE85500000000050002137

PURPOSE OF PAYMENT: for crediting account 32302338301027

BENEFICIARY BANK NAME: DEUTSCHE BUNDESBANK, Frankfurt

BENEFICIARY BANK BIC: MARKDEFF

BENEFICIARY BANK ADDRESS: Wilhelm-Epstein-Strasse 14, 60431 Frankfurt Am Main, Germany

*USD account*
BENEFICIARY: Ministry of Social Policy of Ukraine

BENEFICIARY BIC: NBUA UA UX

BENEFICIARY ADDRESS: 9 Instytutska St, Kyiv, 01601, Ukraine

ACCOUNT NUMBER: 400807238

BENEFICIARY BANK NAME: JP MORGAN CHASE BANK, New York

BENEFICIARY BANK BIC: CHASUS33 ABA 0210 0002 1

BENEFICIARY BANK ADDRESS: 383 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10017, USA

PURPOSE OF PAYMENT: for crediting account 32302338301027

*GBP account*
BENEFICIARY/RECIPIENT NAME: Ministry of Social Policy of Ukraine

SORT CODE: 60-92-42

ACCOUNT NUMBER: 0080033041

GB52CHAS60924280033041

REFERENCE FOR CREDITING ACCOUNT: 32302338301027

BENEFICIARY BIC: NBUA UA UX

BENEFICIARY ADDRESS: 9 Instytutska St, Kyiv, 01601, Ukraine

BENEFICIARY BANK NAME: JP MORGAN CHASE BANK NA, London

BENEFICIARY BANK BIC: CHASGB2L

BENEFICIARY BANK ADDRESS: 125 London Wall, London EC2Y 5AJ, UK

*JPY account*
BENEFICIARY: Ministry of Social Policy of Ukraine

BENEFICIARY BIC: NBUA UA UX

BENEFICIARY ADDRESS: 9 Instytutska St, Kyiv, 01601, Ukraine

ACCOUNT NUMBER: 653-0430048

BENEFICIARY BANK NAME: MUFG BANK LTD, Tokyo

BENEFICIARY BANK BIC: BOTK JP JT

BENEFICIARY BANK ADDRESS: 1-2-3, Nihombashi HONGOKU-CHO, Chuo-ku, Tokyo 1003 -0021 Japan

PURPOSE OF PAYMENT: for crediting account 32302338301027


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 6, 2022)

At lot of Ukranian artists I am tracking are trapped or fleeing west.  Most are out of food.  The ones who get out of Ukraine need significant support.

I will transmit news and updates on HF freqs like other operators when I get a chance.  Radio is a real one way communication tool and I'm not any good at it, imo, but best I can do.

Most of the Russians speaking up on dA are out of money and turning to kofi for funds.  It may work in Ukraine, too.  Buymeacoffee and Ko-fi are considered platforms and not financial institutions, however, Wise, Remitly, transfergo, and Zepz are platform transfer services as well and are being held to the sanctions imposed on Russia.  i would plan on buymeacoffee, ko-fi and others going offline soon for Russia.

It's hard to get foreign assistance to evacuate right now.  Russian troops continue to fire on refugees fleeing cities and breaking ceasefires almost as soon as the ink dries.

As a former member of the military, I sincerely hope they are held accountable for war crimes, but the cynic in me doubts it.









						Paypal Joins Other Payment and Remittance Providers Suspending Services in Russia – Bitcoin News
					

A number of payment and remittance platforms, including Paypal, have restricted access to their services in Russia over the war in Ukraine.




					news.bitcoin.com
				











						Mariupol evacuation stalls as Ukrainian officials accuse Russia of breaking ceasefire
					

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has urged his compatriots to keep up their resistance against Russian forces, as the invasion enters an 11th day and Putin's forces advance on key Ukrainian cities. Follow here for live news updates. from on the ground in Ukraine.




					www.cnn.com
				




If you are Ukrainian and fleeing, leave a shout.  It might not be much, but it a) let's us stop worrying if you're a casualty and b) we can try for some, even if limited assistance.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 6, 2022)

An Estonian newspaper printed 2 full pages making fun of Putin


----------



## Lioedevon427 (Mar 6, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> An Estonian newspaper printed 2 full pages making fun of Putin
> View attachment 128514


Shshsjshsjsk not the chad vs virgin meme. I can’t believe that a mainstream meme is in a newspaper, but then again I don’t read them


----------



## Green_Brick (Mar 6, 2022)

Lol, never have I thought that memes would legit make it into newsprint, anywhere. XD


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 6, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> An Estonian newspaper printed 2 full pages making fun of Putin
> View attachment 128514


Putin is a laughingstock to the entire world right now.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 6, 2022)

hopefully the balloon image is the end result of this...


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 6, 2022)

For Ukraine
Despite risks, American vets are joining Ukrainian defense. Good hunting. In God we trust, all others we monitor. -Minx








						‘I Just Can’t Stand By’: American Veterans Join the Fight in Ukraine
					

All across the country, small groups of military veterans are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Wodenofthegays (Mar 7, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> *1. Powerful and continuing nationalism*
> 
> ...
> 
> *14. Fraudulent elections*



Not only is this not an accurate definition of fascism, leaving out some of the most horrific fascist states in modern history, it was also explicitly developed to label predominantly Muslim states - whether or not they are actually fascist - as fascist states.

If you look into the center that initially published that list, you might also find some pretty unsavory figures sitting behind it.  Like you don't do multiple tours with people like Richard Dawkins because you are actually committed to ending right-wing bigotry.

Also the dude who made it was a Xerox employee with a vendetta against the US, of which the list was written about, not a political scholar.

More useful definitions come from the likes of Umberto Eco, who actually lived through actual fascism and wrote about it in his Ur-Fascism, and the works of other people that have actually studied fascism and that wasn't just some executive upset that the U.S. government likes to break strikes and didn't like to let him do business in the USSR.

Fascism means something, and I challenge you to find a government that isn't or hasn't recently been fascist based on those 14 points, as, again, they were _the petty revenge of a Xerox exec_.

That said, looking at Eco's definition:


The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition.
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. The government is reactionary, but its reactionary ideology isn't total and syncretistic.

Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. While this might be common in some parts of the population, the government doesn't implement this as state policy.

*Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake.

Applies to the Russian Federation. Its how Putin's government does foreign politics, especially war.
*
No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism.
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. We haven't seen sweeping purges of the State Duma or the Federation Council as a result of this, though violent state repression of public protest is common. The reaction here, again, isn't total or syncretistic.

Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity.
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. We would see open purges of minority populations like we do in other fascist states if this was the case.

Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration.
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. Putin's rise to power and maintenance of power doesn't come from the working class or small-business owners of Russia - it comes from the most powerful capitalists of the nation.

To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country.
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. While this may be true of a subset of the population of the Russian Federation, this is not official policy of Putin or his government, and the government regularly has to make overtures to the Orthodox church in order to keep them placid.

The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies.
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. State propaganda isn't focused on the excess of the Russian Federation's enemies or neighbors. The explicit purpose of the recent invasion was to keep a weak enemy from getting stronger, even.

For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. There is no armageddon complex in the Russian Federation's official policy. The enemies are constantly changing because of strategic and personal interests, not ideological.

*Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.*
*Applies to the Russian Federation. It is, however, related to the oligarchic structure of the Russian Federation, and pretty much only happened because the individual dictator almost always checks this box.*

In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero
Absolutely not applicable to the Russian Federation if any recent propaganda from Ukraine holds any merit at all.

*Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters.*
*Applies to the Russian Federation. This is checked off by the rampant sexual bigotry in the Russian Federation's official policy and law, but is connected to conservative reaction not totalistic fascist reaction. *

Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say
Not applicable to the Russian Federation. Putin has never claimed to be the interpreter of Russian popular will, and the opposition to him constantly distances the Russian Federation from this point.

*Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.

Applicable to the Russian Federation. This is applicable to any government that attempts to euphemistically erase its crimes a-la "detention center" but this isn't true in the Russian Federation because of fascism. 
*
If we look critically, the Russian Federation under Putin is nowhere near Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy. Is it a virtual dictatorship? Yes. Is it right-wing? Yes. Is it a disgusting system of state repression and linguistic genocide? Yes.

Is it fascist? No.



dragon-in-sight said:


> Communism is a left Wing authoritarian system with planned economy and extreme atheist views.



The Communist Manifesto specifically says a centrally planned economy after the Paris Commune is stupid and probably one of the most famous communists, Marx, laid into the commune for thinking what you thought:



> But the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes.
> 
> The centralized state power, with its ubiquitous organs of standing army, police, bureaucracy, clergy, and judicature – organs wrought after the plan of a systematic and hierarchic division of labor – originates from the days of absolute monarchy, serving nascent middle class society as a mighty weapon in its struggle against feudalism.



And have you never heard of revolutionary theology? Like read a single thing about communists in South America? 

Because their communism is explicitly Catholic and tied to God's forgiving nature. 

Again, not at all what Putin is doing, but like stop saying things that aren't true during this mess just because you feel like its right.



Baron Tredegar said:


> Putin is a laughingstock to the entire world right now.



People are literally having their homes destroyed by the man's will. There are fewer and fewer people alive every single day because of the political machinations of that man. I can't explain to you the details of how people are dying without causing a problem.

Who's laughing again?

Misinformation and general apathy don't help the Ukrainians and Russians that are dying.



Punji said:


> pathological manipulation



To get people to do what, and how is it more extreme than what propaganda on the other side is achieving?

I'm pretty sure the Russian Federation has a few more invasions on Ukraine than NATO at this point. Almost 100% sure you can see a mountain of difference in Ukranian casualties caused by NATO and those caused by the Russian Federation.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 7, 2022)

What if this is a good thing?

I'm not saying it doesn’t suck, because obviously yeah it's Putin invading Ukraine and threatening nuclear war ala Dr. Evil, and the world is definitely a shitty place, people are terrible to each other, and worse is yet to come...

But yeah, I mean a few people are not trying to burn the planet to the ground.  imagine if this could really unite people to come together and actually make a positive change.  Then I read more and the cynic comes back.  But what if it became a positive people power movement?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 7, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> What if this is a good thing?


*Putin consults an oracle*
Putin: What happens if I invade Ukraine
Oracle: If you do, a great empire shall fall
Putin: Haha cool


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 7, 2022)

I hope everyone is still alive, at least.  Saying ok, I don't know.  When I was in combat and someone asked if we were ok, we'd laugh and just say we were pretty far from it.

I know words fail at times like these, but just know things will get better.


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 7, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> What if this is a good thing?
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn’t suck, because obviously yeah it's Putin invading Ukraine and threatening nuclear war ala Dr. Evil, and the world is definitely a shitty place, people are terrible to each other, and worse is yet to come...
> 
> But yeah, I mean a few people are not trying to burn the planet to the ground.  imagine if this could really unite people to come together and actually make a positive change.  Then I read more and the cynic comes back.  But what if it became a positive people power movement?


I thought this too. It's very hard to articulate with all the horrible things going on - but maybe the way to "redeem" so much evil being done is to make sure something good happens as a consequence?...

And there are some such signs almost from the very beginning. By necessity I need to speak first and foremost from my personal perspective - but for example the people in Poland rose to help Ukraine as much as they can, and then some. Aside from the government providing both weapons (first and foremost the very effective "Piorun" MANPADS but there's talk about MiG-29 jet fighters now!) and humanitarian aid, the regular people, businesses and independent organizations are helping the refugees spontaneously. That means organizing fundraising, free food and transport, places to stay, including inviting the Ukrainians to stay at people's homes. (On the administrative side it was enabled for the Ukrainians to take their pets into EU without bureaucratic fuss and even the Kiyv zoo is being successively evacuated into Poland). I have a real feeling that in these dark days we are forging a completely new, special bond between our nations - which is even more noteworthy as we did have serious beef with each other in the past. 

The Ukrainian unity in the face of the enemy is something to behold. And I really hope that some of it can rub off onto Poland as in the recent years we had an ideological & political split in society roughly comparable to what the US is experiencing. The current great unification to help Ukraine may contribute too.

Another unexpected unification was that Poland and Israel reinstated diplomatic contacts, which were seriously damaged after quarrels during last summer.

On more general terms, perhaps the European Union will finally understand that it needs to become a subject in the global power play - instead of letting itself be an inert object tossed around by the currents, which was happening too much so far. The current German shift gives hopes for that, among other things. 

Also, it is beyond awful that this required so many victims and so much sacrifices - but Putin's Russia finally lost the mask of "kinda-sorta normal country, maybe just little more rough" and outed itself as a barbaric regime hostile towards all that mankind holds dear. We in central Europe were warning about it since longest times, but the Western powers, charmed with good deals and cheap fuels, were ignoring us completely. Or so it seemed - the speed of their reaction now suggests to me that the warnings did sink in, only that they weren't ready to believe them. 


Of other things, I wasn't writing anything here so far as instead I'm trying to stay on top of several info streams at once. Which leads into interesting directions oftentimes. So _if _I find time (and manage to cross-check things), I may have some more specific glimmers of hope to add later.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 7, 2022)

Wodenofthegays said:


> If we look critically, the Russian Federation under Putin is nowhere near Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy. Is it a virtual dictatorship? Yes. Is it right-wing? Yes. Is it a disgusting system of state repression and linguistic genocide? Yes.
> 
> Is it fascist? No.



Beeing from germany myself I know the red flags of right wing political extremism. Just like one doesn't need a Bachlor in agricultural economics to recognize a strawman if he sees it.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 7, 2022)

I was gonna post that in Last thing you laughed at online, but it's more appropriate here, not to mention it's also vent as I seriously want cringe air headed actors and actresses to shut the fuck up about politics. These people make a living pretending to be people they're not, then they lose sight of this and believe they're geniuses and heroes, and then they shit out hot takes like this


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 7, 2022)

Wodenofthegays said:


> Not only is this not an accurate definition of fascism, leaving out some of the most horrific fascist states in modern history, it was also explicitly developed to label predominantly Muslim states - whether or not they are actually fascist - as fascist states.
> 
> If you look into the center that initially published that list, you might also find some pretty unsavory figures sitting behind it.  Like you don't do multiple tours with people like Richard Dawkins because you are actually committed to ending right-wing bigotry.
> 
> ...


Are far-left dictatorships consistently turning to "right-wing" ideas such as nationalism? yes, for the same reason China's communist party allowed some capitalism in : because at some point, to survive, they need ideas that actually work


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 7, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I was gonna post that in Last thing you laughed at online, but it's more appropriate here, not to mention it's also vent as I seriously want cringe air headed actors and actresses to shut the fuck up about politics. These people make a living pretending to be people they're not, then they lose sight of this and believe they're geniuses and heroes, and then they shit out hot takes like this
> View attachment 128550


I guess they want the United States to leave the Warsaw Pact as well?


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 7, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> I guess they want the United States to leave the Warsaw Pact as well?


Hell the United States should be kicked out of the Sassanid empire for what they've done to Iraq


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 7, 2022)

Speaking of dumb - air superiority.  The Su-34 is Russia's pre-emminent fighter.

Going into battle with dumb (unguided) bombs, no air to air capacity, and no real SAM defense.  









						Against Ukraine, Russia is deploying its Sukhoi Su-34 attack aircraft armed with Dumb Bombs because it lacks PGMs (And Poland Won’t donate its MiG-29s to Kyiv) - The Aviation Geek Club
					

Against Ukraine, Russia is deploying its Sukhoi Su-34 attack aircraft armed with Dumb Bombs because it lacks PGMs




					theaviationgeekclub.com
				




Poland is likely transferring aircraft because US is likely backfilling them with better.


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 7, 2022)

Is Russia still part of "Partnership for Peace", or did they get suspended/expelled from that?


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500491702880153604


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 7, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> What if this is a good thing?
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn’t suck, because obviously yeah it's Putin invading Ukraine and threatening nuclear war ala Dr. Evil, and the world is definitely a shitty place, people are terrible to each other, and worse is yet to come...
> 
> But yeah, I mean a few people are not trying to burn the planet to the ground.  imagine if this could really unite people to come together and actually make a positive change.  Then I read more and the cynic comes back.  But what if it became a positive people power movement?


Like I said before, war unites us all against a common enemy.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 7, 2022)

I was correct https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...anctions-are-akin-declaration-war-2022-03-05/  The longer this conflict lasts, the more likely it is to spread, and sanctions are slow. Apparently we have June as a deadline before the Russian economy goes into meltdown mode according to some document that was leaked. If you think Putin would use nukes at all, don't you think he would use them then, if the Russian army is still in the same struggle it's in right now which is possible? He's now implying that the entire Western world is at war with Russia, he's turning into Kim Jong Un.
(and BTW remember that Kim Jong Un hasn't nuked anybody in however long he's been promising he would. Something else I hope I'm right about, nukes are bluff)


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 7, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> (and BTW remember that Kim Jong Un hasn't nuked anybody in however long he's been promising he would. Something else I hope I'm right about, nukes are bluff)


He could be willing to use low yield tactical nuclear weapons. 
What was the doctrine? I read something somewhere, an excerpt from a book that talked about the likelihood of Putin using tactical nukes to scare everyone while giving his troops an advantage without starting a nuclear war. The reasoning was real detailed, talking about the ways he was likely to judge the West's use of retaliation and fear of nuclear war


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 7, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> He could be willing to use low yield tactical nuclear weapons.
> What was the doctrine? I read something somewhere, an excerpt from a book that talked about the likelihood of Putin using tactical nukes to scare everyone while giving his troops an advantage without starting a nuclear war. The reasoning was real detailed, talking about the ways he was likely to judge the West's use of retaliation and fear of nuclear war


Such a strategy would completely crumble with an exactly proportionate retaliation, something Putin cannot afford and couldn't exploit.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 7, 2022)

This might be relevant if we are discussing nuclear war. This was the Soviets plans for if WW3 broke out back then.








						Seven Days to the River Rhine - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## TR273 (Mar 7, 2022)

Following on from @Baron Tredegar 's post.
There is a rather interesting book called 'First Clash' written in 1985 by Kenneth Macksey.
Which is a 'What if' analysis of tactics used by NATO forces in the event of a Soviet invasion of West Germany.
It's a sort of fiction with basis in facts, covering the first week of combat.
(The current situation persuaded me to dust the book off and give it a read.)


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 7, 2022)

If they work and/or if his inner circle doesn't work to countermand the order.

As it stands, he's lost enough of his military that he has become as appetizing a target to China.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 7, 2022)

Oh shit...








						Hate for Putin's Russia Consumes Ukraine
					

LVIV, Ukraine — Trapped in his apartment on the outskirts of Kyiv during fierce battles over the weekend, the well-known Ukrainian poet Oleksandr Irvanets composed a few lines that encapsulated the national mood. “I shout out to the whole world,” he wrote in a short poem published online by his...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Quote : Olha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 8, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Disclaimer. Putler can at any moment initiate ‘tard rage and use them with disregard for consequences.


Putin Jong Un can barely do that anymore than his inspiration can.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 8, 2022)

The Russians took out their own encryption system.








						Russian Officer Complains About Dead General and Comms Meltdown in Intercepted Call
					

Irina Rybakova/Press service of the Ukrainian ground forces/ReutersThe Ukrainian defense ministry has released audio from a call that it claims captured two Russian officers lamenting the death of a top general and the collapse of its secure communications network in Ukraine.In the call—which...




					www.yahoo.com
				



So they call reinforcements from Syria








						WSJ News Exclusive | Russia Recruiting Syrians for Urban Combat in Ukraine, U.S. Officials Say
					

Moscow is looking for help from foreign fighters to take cities including Kyiv. The move points to a potential escalation of fighting in Ukraine.




					www.wsj.com
				



Oh.








						Additional armored vehicle capability arrives in Northeast Syria
					

Combined Joint Task Force – Operation Inherent Resolve demonstrated its continued commitment to the enduring defeat of Daesh with the recent addition of additional M2A3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle



					www.centcom.mil
				



Today is another headache.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 8, 2022)

More state of the art tech rollin out of Russia


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 8, 2022)

According to US intel, Putler is now very “angry and frustrated” and will likely elevate bombardment of cities, showing no mercy to any civilians.


----------



## Thrashy (Mar 9, 2022)

Albania renames street in capital Tirana as Free Ukraine
					

Albania will rename a street in its capital Tirana where the Russian and Ukrainian embassies are located as Free Ukraine to honour Ukraine's resistance to war, the mayor said on Sunday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 9, 2022)




----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 9, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> According to US intel, Putler is now very “angry and frustrated” and will likely elevate bombardment of cities, showing no mercy to any civilians.



So it basicly comes down to this


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 9, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> So it basicly comes down to this


Or


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 9, 2022)

Remember two weeks ago when this was true?





						Russia is Top Military Threat to U.S. Homeland, Air Force General Says - USNI News
					

Russia, with its array of hard-to-detect cruise missiles and advanced submarines, poses the primary military threat to the American homeland today, the commander of U.S. Northern Command said Tuesday. “They’ve developed capabilities that didn’t exist 20 years ago …very low radar cross-section...




					news.usni.org


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 9, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Remember two weeks ago when this was true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like an overestimation considering the fact that they are getting beaten up by farmers atm.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 9, 2022)




----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 10, 2022)

Well, as a follow up to my posting above - (as far as the current conflict goes): Russia recently created and published a list of so-called "non-friendly countries" towards them:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...-unfriendly-countries-require-moscow-approval

And.... I noticed how China is conveniently not on the list for them.... but democratic countries like Taiwan and South Korea are..... and - the countries that make up the entire continent of South America isn't even mentioned on the list apparently..... even though there are several South American countries that condemned the invasion also.

So..... a part of me wonders if this new "enemies list" may be more of a political thing, than anything of actual substance, (where open war-like hostilities may be present). So perhaps, this list is more grand standing and saber rattling on their part?

I'm thinking so..... as an open conflict with any or all of these countries (in addition to Ukrain) could escalate things even further, which I doubt the Russians really want.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 10, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> And.... I noticed how China is conveniently not on the list for them.... but democratic countries like Taiwan and South Korea are..... and - the countries that make up the entire continent of South America isn't even mentioned on the list apparently..... even though there are several South American countries that condemned the invasion also.



I'm more bewildered by the fact they also named countries like San Marino and Andorra on their vendetta list. Seems like Putin made himself some scarry enemies:


----------



## TR273 (Mar 10, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Remember two weeks ago when this was true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suppose this is becoming the literal example of:
'No plan survives contact with the enemy.'


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 10, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Remember two weeks ago when this was true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This remains accurate. Don't underestimate the russians' military capabilities because they've commited a serious strategic slip-up in one conflict. 



Parabellum3 said:


> Sounds like an overestimation considering the fact that they are getting beaten up by farmers atm.


wait didn't you guys get beat up by farmers in vietnam as well?


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Remember two weeks ago when this was true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know right?
Imagine struggling with basic logistics, supply lines and morale. Which is to say nothing about all the Soviet Era Equipment still circulating in the army.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> This remains accurate. Don't underestimate the russians' military capabilities because they've commited a serious strategic slip-up in one conflict.
> 
> 
> wait didn't you guys get beat up by farmers in vietnam as well?


As far as I know about the conflict. The war being unpopular in the States played a bigger part than any of the total combat losses, which was steeper for the North Vietnamese side than the US.


----------



## TrishaCat (Mar 10, 2022)

bruh
they're just casually admitting to bombing a maternity hospital

EDIT: Twitter deleted the tweet but left the account up. The original tweet was archived, however:


			Welcome to nginx!
		

The tweet was from the Russian Embassy in the UK: "She is indeed. As she has some very realistic make-up. She is also doing well with her beauty blogs. Plus she could not be in the maternity house at the time of the strike, as it has long been taken by the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion who told all the staff to clear the place"


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 10, 2022)

At this point in time, it is all about the civilian casualties and them covering it up ala Malaysian Airlines over Crimea.

I don't think anyone has any notion the talks underway are anything more than diversionary at this time.

It looks like the Russian economy will default, but it is an aristcratic dictatorship, so I wouldn't place bets on Putin pulling out or withdrawing.  I just see more dsstructive weaponry being called up.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 10, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> wait didn't you guys get beat up by farmers in vietnam as well?


We at least did way better there and took less casualties than the Russians now. Morale was the biggest issue.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> We at least did way better there and took less casualties than the Russians now. Morale was the biggest issue.


The US was tactically superior in most battles, I'd argue the strategies used was more the issue. You're also correct in that the biggest military issue was that Americans despised the war and resented being drafted into it. Which is completely understandable.

The most often cited battle in which people cite as winning the war for the North Vietnamese was the Tet offensive. That had causality figures cited as 50,000 for the US and allied forces and something like 110,000 for the North Vietnamese.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 10, 2022)

We lost Vietnam by going over there in the first place. We had no business getting involved over there.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2022)

I am sharing this news story here, as a cautionary example of uncaring responses from safe nations to what is becoming Europe's largest refugee crisis since the second world war. 








						Ukraine war: UK Home Office is in crisis mode over visas
					

The department is trying to convince an increasingly sceptical nation it has control of the situation.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Great crises should bring out our commonality as humans, and history will judge us where we do not rise to the challenge.


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 11, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Speaking of dumb - air superiority.  The Su-34 is Russia's pre-emminent fighter.
> 
> Going into battle with dumb (unguided) bombs, no air to air capacity, and no real SAM defense.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately indeed, the thing with MiGs has fallen through. Politicians should have orchestrated the matter away from the public eye, but instead they had to hit the news outlets first. It's one thing when I get carried away by emotions about all this (and I do a lot), but them, the professionals? Sheesh...

It's double bad since you mentioned the Sukhoi aircraft. I get to read (in a Polish source so take it for what you will, might be bit of wishful thinking) that the Russians are over-relying on Su-27 & later derivatives in aerial engagements over Ukraine. These planes are apparently more geared toward long range combat. And in practice, most engagements happen at short range, where the Ukrainian MiG-29s turn out to be better. 

At the very least, they got supplied with more short range air-to-air missiles already. 

Now towards more solid facts. I _really _have no time, so sorry if this has become "old news" or common knowledge. But these two nuggets are really interesting. 

1) NATO has large-scale, complex air operations as a part of standard repertoire. Americans were using this over Iraq, for instance. By all logic, Russia should have done this in Ukraine too, but we're not seeing this happening. A British military researcher looks into the matter closely and concludes that Russian air force may simply not be capable of such complex operations! 








						Is the Russian Air Force Actually Incapable of Complex Air Operations?
					

More than a week into the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian Air Force has yet to commence large-scale operations. Inactivity in the first few days could be ascribed to various factors, but the continued absence of major air operations now raises serious capability questions.




					rusi.org
				




2) A collection of Twitter posts, I know - but it's by a professor of strategic studies from University St Andrews. He takes closer look at the Russian logistics. According to an American report from 1991 (linked in these posts as well), poor logistics was one of main reason of the Soviet failure in Afghanistan. And it appears that 30 years later, the Russians are having similar problems still! I'm linking this here because IMO it shed a lot of light on why Russians are faring so poorly and appear to have great trouble with "biting into" the Ukrainian territory to any large extent. Tl;dr, their logistics is simply not up to par with the demands of resupplying the advancing combat units - they have too few trucks, plainly and simply. Also the Ukrainians appear well aware of this and are hunting down the Russian trucks and fuel transports relentlessly. Russia scraping for a random collection of civilian transport vehicles, also depicted there, only shows how desperate they must be.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500213943012319252
My own personal comment on this: the Russian army turned out to be what we call here "a colossus on clay legs". Sure, the overwhelming numbers is their strength (which should at least enable them to do "zerg rush" but even this does not appear to work extremely well?...). But the quality? Shit. Putler simply needs to hoot about nukes, otherwise China could just march in and grab Siberia for itself, for example.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2022)

I was correct btw, now Putin considers sanctions as an act of war. If anyone thinks Putin is crazy enough to use nukes (which he's not, he's turning into the same sort of bluffer as his fellow neo-communist Kim Jong Un) why wouldn't you believe he would be crazy enough to use them because of sanctions?

Timing was and still is of the essence, we have until June as a deadline estimate before Russia goes into economic meltdown, that's a long time in which the Russian army can still succeed in winning. Strikes against civilians will keep coming. We had a chance at putting boots on the ground and we didn't, choosing the much slower option that will keep killing people with starvation long AFTER the war is over whenever that is, AND gives Russia a better chance at winning.

Also taking in refugees is not enough either except maybe if you only want a clean conscience. A bit under half of the Ukrainian population (men between 18 and 60) are NOT ALLOWED to leave due to being eligible for the draft. Do we not care about these people's lives? do they have less value than that of women and children?


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 11, 2022)

Pomorek said:


> My own personal comment on this: the Russian army turned out to be what we call here "a colossus on clay legs". Sure, the overwhelming numbers is their strength (which should at least enable them to do "zerg rush" but even this does not appear to work extremely well?...). But the quality? Shit. Putler simply needs to hoot about nukes, otherwise China could just march in and grab Siberia for itself, for example.


This is a very good analysis - "zerg rushing" as you so aptly stated it only works for so long (basically in a blitzkrieg-style advance you overrun the defenders' potentially entrenched positions to establish a frontline far in the enemy territory then send in a second and third wave to rout the remaining defenders that are now sitting in your own back line) The russians had everything focused on that first wave and nothing on the second and third. Soviet-era doctrine tends to be very centralist and top-heavy (this is the same for air defence, and the reason the americans got out of the first gulf war with very few losses)  

However a chinese invasion of Siberia is very very very unlikely.


----------



## Thrashy (Mar 11, 2022)

According to some sources, Russia has dropped so called butterfly mines into Ukrainian territory, even in humanitarian corridors. 
If this is true, this will be just another entry in the list of war crimes that Russia is doing in the Ukraine.









						Russia Accused Of Using Air-Dropped Butterfly Mines To Block Ukrainian Evacuation Route (Update: New Video Confirmation)
					

Russia is reportedly using air-dropped butterfly mines in Ukraine that look like plastic toys. These weapons have a long history of harming children — and a surprising origin story that goes back to  the U.S.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 11, 2022)

Thrashy said:


> According to some sources, Russia has dropped so called butterfly mines into Ukrainian territory, even in humanitarian corridors.
> If this is true, this will be just another entry in the list of war crimes that Russia is doing in the Ukraine.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, because they like their civilian casualties.  They see an injured child as a means to placate a population.  So yes, even toys are murder machines for the Russian army.  They are anti-personnelmdesigned to maim and seriously injure.

They did the same in Afghanistan and walked away from the war crime.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Also taking in refugees is not enough either except maybe if you only want a clean conscience. A bit under half of the Ukrainian population (men between 18 and 60) are NOT ALLOWED to leave due to being eligible for the draft. Do we not care about these people's lives? do they have less value than that of women and children?



I don't think people are yet prepared to gamble calling the bluff of nuclear war- for obvious reasons.
Ukraine's decision to retain its fighting age men is also obvious. 
A nation's fighting age men are a more effective military force than its_ mothers and children_. 

Accuse me of gender bias, but that's just a reality.



Minerva_Minx said:


> Yes, because they like their civilian casualties.  They see an injured child as a means to placate a population.  So yes, even toys are murder machines for the Russian army.  They are anti-personnelmdesigned to maim and seriously injure.
> 
> They did the same in Afghanistan and walked away from the war crime.



Analysts have also noted that Russia's modus operandi for war in Syria focused pre-eminently on the encirclement of urban areas and the bombardment of civilians with indiscriminate munitions and non conventional weapons. 

We should be very concerned about the prospect Russia is trying to establish a pretext to deploy a biologic or chemical agent in Ukraine soon, given they just called a UN assembly to accuse Ukraine of developing weaponised biologics.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Accuse me of gender bias, but that's just a reality.


Everyone knows that, but many people only remember it when there's a tough situation


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 11, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> We should be very concerned about the prospect Russia is trying to establish a pretext to deploy a biologic or chemical agent in Ukraine soon, given they just called a UN assembly to accuse Ukraine of developing weaponised biologics.


I’m sorry but hasn’t Russia destroyed all of its chemical weapons under the Chemical Weapons Convention? Or did they just ignore that as well?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 11, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> I’m sorry but hasn’t Russia destroyed all of its chemical weapons under the Chemical Weapons Convention? Or did they just ignore that as well?


Do you really think they actually destroyed everything? I doubt it
The real question is, whatever they have kept, have they actually bothered to maintain/keep production of. We've seen from the forces they're using in Ukraine how little maintenance they've actually done on military equipment (for example, the tires blowing out on military trucks because they were kept parked without being moved periodically to protect the tires)


----------



## Deleted member 127940 (Mar 11, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Everyone knows that, but many people only remember it when there's a tough situation



The gender whinging stops the second the shelling starts. You can't make this up. 

A sick part of me legitimately hopes that Western boomer politicians try to agitate for a war against Russia (or for some other pointless conflict that no one wants) so that all of the younger guys can tell all of them to go fuck themselves.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 11, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Do you really think they actually destroyed everything? I doubt it
> The real question is, whatever they have kept, have they actually bothered to maintain/keep production of. We've seen from the forces they're using in Ukraine how little maintenance they've actually done on military equipment (for example, the tires blowing out on military trucks because they were kept parked without being moved periodically to protect the tires)


Possibly.

Also no more vodka, seafood, or jewelry from Russia. Cancel culture is being beneficial for once.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Do you really think they actually destroyed everything? I doubt it
> The real question is, whatever they have kept, have they actually bothered to maintain/keep production of. We've seen from the forces they're using in Ukraine how little maintenance they've actually done on military equipment (for example, the tires blowing out on military trucks because they were kept parked without being moved periodically to protect the tires)


One big issue with chemical weapons is that - if they are broken out - it's almost _entirely_ going to be civilians who die.

Chemical weapons aren't popular for a reason: Generally, for a first-rate military (hell, even a third-rate one that's _expecting_ to face them), it's significantly easier and cheaper to equip soldiers in such a way as to trivialize any plausible chemical weapons than it is to for somebody to produce and deploy them. 

But see one key word in there: _Military_. Civilians, more often than not, _will not_ have the same access. In terms of availability, effectiveness, training, or so-on. Which means that if Putin _does_ deploy chemical weapons, even if most of them are duds... well, I don't think I need to explain just _how_ only a handful are needed to turn the various impromptu shelters into morgues.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2022)

There are two things I want to point out here.

1. Women serve in several militaries, including in combat roles, without any controversy. They must meet the same qualifications and training standards as men in the American military. I'm not against a draft, however unlikely, including women here in the States. On principle, I can see the reasoning in also conscripting women in any conflict.

That said, in Ukraine, I can see why men, 18 to 60, are being conscripted to fight while women are not, since there is the issue of who will take care of the children in their families, particularly if they are fleeing the conflict. Common sense and the situation on the ground also dictate emptying the cities being encircled by Russian forces will get civilians out of the fight and allow those cities to stretch the resources that becoming scarce there. 

There need to be some adult to tend to the children fleeing the country and especially those still stuck in the country. 

Also, if you are saying children need to fight in a war, you're a scumbag who needs to do a moral inventory.

2. The Russians have a history of using chemical weapons in war and against civilians in peacetime. The Russian supplied the Assad regime in Syria with chemical weapons and deployed them against civilians and combatants alike during the most intense parts of the conflict there. Russian intelligence operatives have also poisoned Sergei Skripal and his daughter with a Novichok agent, which also resulted in the collateral damage against other British civilians. Alexei Navalny was poisoned by a Novichok agent created by Russian biowarfare units as well too. 

Chemical warfare is a very real concern for this conflict.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 11, 2022)

The Soviet Union signed the chemical treaty, not Putin.  Putin makes a very good distinction.

The US policy on chemical and biologic warfare is nuclear detonation.  This is probably a button Putin will pish as well.  He is doing it to show the West isn't serious and all bluster no resolve.  If you're trying to build an Empire, you have to show you are the better or more reasonable option.  If he has to eliminate 90% of Ukraine to put fear and break the spirits of the remainder, he's won as he can rebuild and repopulate.

This is about dynasty, same as North Korea.


----------



## Foxridley (Mar 11, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> The US policy on chemical and biologic warfare is nuclear detonation.


I tried looking for this but the results seem to refer a US policy of using nuclear response to a chemical or biological attack on the U.S. rather than on another country.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 12, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> I tried looking for this but the results seem to refer a US policy of using nuclear response to a chemical or biological attack on the U.S. rather than on another country.


There is a good chance that we may get physically involved judging by Biden's response to the question about it. He simply said "they'll pay a heavy price" and walked off.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 12, 2022)

Arms Control and Proliferation Profile: The United States | Arms Control Association
					






					www.armscontrol.org
				



Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statement_on_Chemical_and_Biological_Defense_Policies_and_Programs

it's more ambiguous use policy as set forth by US Secretary of Defense William Cohen in 97 or 98, under Pres. Bill Clinton.

The threat has been used twice.  First was the second Gulf War as a threat to Saddam Hussein by Pres George W. Bush for threatening chemical and biological warfare.  however, this was basedon faulty intelligence  Putin called out the bluff, but predicted the US would invade Iraq instead.  He attempted to threaten the US, but needed US materials to rebuild Russia, and a war in Iraq and Afghanistan would curb US interests and dominance, which worked to his favor.  He forfeited his interests in Iraq for political capital as the US was "warmongering".

The second time was in Syria.  Pres Obama called chemical attacks a "red line" znd threatened Syria.  Putin again called the bluff and Pres Assad fired chemical weapons (sarin) on three(?) cities.  Pres Obama was forced to back off and opted for cruise missiles over tactical nuclear devices.

The big takeaway is Putin doesn't care how many lives are lost on his quest for power and wealth -that's inconsequential.  A F-35 over Moscow threatens him personally and that's where he takes interest.  I think he would throw the entire Russian military at Ukraine and burn it to the ground if it inspired fear of him, as it would add to his power.  So I'm fairly looking at this all as Russian theater and think in 2 weeks or less, Ukraine will be hit with chemical weapons at least.  I think a biological weapon is also a good candidate, but I don't think he has vaccines to protect his person whi h is why I don't think he would employ one.  If he did, it's goal would be to cripple Europe with a plague so he could send his units into infected countries and have an easier time.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 12, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> I'm more bewildered by the fact they also named countries like San Marino and Andorra on their vendetta list. Seems like Putin made himself some scarry enemies:


Well.... it seems (to me) to be more of an "enemies list"; or perhaps..... within the Russian government itself - could be labelled a "rivals" list, when looking at it from a political standpoint.

As within the walls of power inside Moscow, (personally) I'd seriously doubt they'd want any more escalations of the conflict with any additional countries that are on this list. As the Russians don't want World War III any more than any of us do, frankly..... (in spite of this invasion).


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 12, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> As within the walls of power inside Moscow, (personally) I'd seriously doubt they'd want any more escalations of the conflict with any additional countries that are on this list. As the Russians don't want World War III any more than any of us do, frankly..... (in spite of this invasion).



I'm not so sure about this one. Putin seems to have a personal grudge towards the USA. It seems that his ultimate goal is a confrontation with this adversary of his. And may be all we have seen sowar is just an attempt to drag them into a direct confrontation.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Everyone knows that, but many people only remember it when there's a tough situation



You are the one who voiced open opposition to men staying to fight while women and children are expected to flee, Frank. 



Frank Gulotta said:


> A bit under half of the Ukrainian population (men between 18 and 60) are NOT ALLOWED to leave due to being eligible for the draft. Do we not care about these people's lives? do they have less value than that of women and children?





Minerva_Minx said:


> The Soviet Union signed the chemical treaty, not Putin.  Putin makes a very good distinction.
> 
> The US policy on chemical and biologic warfare is nuclear detonation.  This is probably a button Putin will pish as well.  He is doing it to show the West isn't serious and all bluster no resolve.  If you're trying to build an Empire, you have to show you are the better or more reasonable option.  If he has to eliminate 90% of Ukraine to put fear and break the spirits of the remainder, he's won as he can rebuild and repopulate.
> 
> This is about dynasty, same as North Korea.



I don't think the US has openly stated that they will respond with nuclear weapons in the event of chemical or biological attacks; chemical weapons were openly used by Russia's Syrian allies in recent years.
I think the use of these weapons is tempting to Russia, because it would help tip the balance in their favour in urban environments where hidden soldiers with anti-tank missiles could pose a serious problems for them.
They're exploring whether they can deceive the international community into believing stockpiles of 'Ukrainian' weapons have been accidentally detonated in the event of a Russian chemical or biologic attack. At the moment at least the international community is not accepting this line.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> You are the one who voiced open opposition to men staying to fight while women and children are expected to flee, Frank.


Your remark would've been shut down as muhsoggynistic and possibly transphobic just a few weeks ago, people have been vilified for years for holding such views, still it gives me no pleasure to see this situation go up in smoke as soon as there's a tough situation to deal with; that's why my point was that this war needs to stop as soon as possible to save more lives across the board, and it's not likely to happen if we go with sanctions alone. So I believe you misinterpreted my point.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Your remark would've been shut down as muhsoggynistic and possibly transphobic just a few weeks ago, people have been vilified for years for holding such views, still it gives me no pleasure to see this situation go up in smoke as soon as there's a tough situation to deal with; that's why my point was that this war needs to stop as soon as possible to save more lives across the board, and it's not likely to happen if we go with sanctions alone. So I believe you misinterpreted my point.



I don't think I've ever seen anybody argue that women and children should be conscripted in the name of gender equality, Frank?

I think deciding on schemes of military escalation is above our pay grade, because there is a risk of starting nuclear war.
I kind of feel it's a bit easy for people who want military responses to talk a big game at the moment, but if they were in charge I think they would lose a lot of that confidence.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I don't think I've ever seen anybody argue that women and children should be conscripted in the name of gender equality, Frank?


I've never seen this point being raised in a vacuum, it always took "what about the bad stuff about equality" for this question to come up (not about children, that's just silly). And almost always the assumption was yes, women should be eligible, but that a draft would never be used by anyone. False it seems, and it never was serious, which is not surprising given the endless hypocrisy of such activists. Even now they'll be completely oblivious to a blatant inequality and insist that women are more oppressed.


Fallowfox said:


> I think deciding on schemes of military escalation is above our pay grade, because there is a risk of starting nuclear war.
> I kind of feel it's a bit easy for people who want military responses to talk a big game at the moment, but if they were in charge I think they would lose a lot of that confidence.


Sure, we lost the opportunity to talk the big game BEFORE it happened which could've prevented this, it doesn't help that people have elected weaklings to lead them, because projecting strength is scary. Still bluff should be called. If Kim Jong Un never used nukes despite threatening the entire world for decades chances are nobody will. Not to mention if sanctions were efficient, they would also be likely to cause nuclear war. A measure's likelihood to cause nuclear war is proportional to its efficiency. In other terms we're not accomplishing much because we're too spooked. But as I've said who knows? maybe Putin Jong Un will actually threaten to nuke us because of sanctions, if these actually get to accomplish more than pigshit and high fuel prices. Guess we'll know that in June if we keep dragging our feet. By that time, thousands of people will have been killed.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I've never seen this point being raised in a vacuum, it always took "what about the bad stuff about equality" for this question to come up (not about children, that's just silly). And almost always the assumption was yes, women should be eligible, but that a draft would never be used by anyone. False it seems, and it never was serious, which is not surprising given the endless hypocrisy of such activists. Even now they'll be completely oblivious to a blatant inequality and insist that women are more oppressed.
> 
> Sure, we lost the opportunity to talk the big game BEFORE it happened which could've prevented this, it doesn't help that people have elected weaklings to lead them, because projecting strength is scary. Still bluff should be called. If Kim Jong Un never used nukes despite threatening the entire world for decades chances are nobody will. Not to mention if sanctions were efficient, they would also be likely to cause nuclear war. A measure's likelihood to cause nuclear war is proportional to its efficiency. In other terms we're not accomplishing much because we're too spooked. But as I've said who knows? maybe Putin Jong Un will actually threaten to nuke us because of sanctions, if these actually get to accomplish more than pigshit and high fuel prices. Guess we'll know that in June if we keep dragging our feet. By that time, thousands of people will have been killed.



I am very confused that you believe that other people want women to be conscripted into the military?
Putting aside the exotic nature of this belief, I am disappointed that you would try to use a serious thread topic like this to attempt to score points on gender politics; this is not the appropriate place or time for being childish.

If I recall Frank, this was your response to Russia invading Ukraine:


Frank Gulotta said:


> The world is fine


You clearly weren't taking the threat of invasion seriously, even after it had begun.
So I am a bit surprised you believe that military action should have been taken months ago. 

I would try to learn from these mistakes, before trying to tell generals what they should be doing.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> I am very confused that you believe that other people want women to be conscripted into the military?
> Putting aside the exotic nature of this belief, I am disappointed that you would try to use a serious thread topic like this to attempt to score points on gender politics; this is not the appropriate place or time for being childish.


I'm not, those are points worth being raised or at least I thought they were. It's not written anywhere that you can't care about specifically men being forced to stay within a war-torn country and nobody batting an eye about it.


Fallowfox said:


> If I recall Frank, this was your response to Russia invading Ukraine:
> 
> You clearly weren't taking the threat of invasion seriously, even after it had begun.
> So I am a bit surprised you believe that military action should have been taken months ago.
> ...


You didn't understand that it was sarcasm? golly
Perhaps there is something to people indicating that they're being sarcastic, but that's like saying "I'll make a joke" and then concluding with an explanation of the pun and "please laugh".


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You didn't understand that it was sarcasm? golly
> Perhaps there is something to people indicating that they're being sarcastic, but that's like saying "I'll make a joke" and then concluding with an explanation of the pun and "please laugh".


there's a difference between making a joke and being a joke.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 12, 2022)

Russia








						Russia Holds Beauty Contest for Female Soldiers During Ukraine War
					

The event saw women soldiers compete in military tests and exercises as well as in non-combative competitions.




					www.newsweek.com
				











						‘Sleeping with the enemy’ Russian troops try to pick up Ukrainian women on Tinder
					

Russian soldiers poised to invade Ukraine have bombarded women on the other side of the border with Tinder messages Tuesday, according to The Sun.




					nypost.com
				



US








						Breaking barriers: 2nd DAF Women’s Air and Space Power Symposium focuses on change
					

The Women’s Initiative Team and the Secretary of the Air Force Office of Diversity and Inclusion hosted the second annual Department of the Air Force Women’s Air and Space Power Symposium March 8-10.



					www.af.mil
				











						Congress Moves Closer to Making Women Register for the Draft
					

An influential House committee has voted to include the provision in the defense policy bill, matching a Senate move earlier this year.




					www.military.com
				



Ukraine 








						How Women Forced Ukraine to Welcome Them Into the Military
					

Russian attacks in 2014 prompted civilians to fight alongside soldiers—and push for equal opportunities within their ranks.




					slate.com
				











						'Heroic spirits': Women rush to Ukraine's defence
					

The woman who was Ukraine's first female volunteer to get a full military contract wants the new recruits in her charge to drop all notions about the romance of war.




					www.france24.com
				




Omg. So that's what i was doing wrong.  I didn't drop my pants and start making and throwing babies!  Stupid rifle.
(It takes 9 months to conceive and birth a baby, so war is probably over by first toss or it's a forever war.  That's sarcasm.  Please laugh.)


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 12, 2022)

Whole thing was sarcasm because it shows objectification of women as props even when fighting, while essentially referring to them as cooks, sanitiation, repair roles, and beauty models only.  Please laugh.


Minerva_Minx said:


> Russia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> there's a difference between making a joke and being a joke.


Are you upset that you failed to see the sarcasm too?


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 12, 2022)

And we were doing so well at keeping things civil too.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Are you upset that you failed to see the sarcasm too?


Distraught.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 12, 2022)

If frank wants us to believe his embarrassing comments were sarcastic, then we can only assume that his calls for military escalation, and his moral distress that men are asked to fight and not women, are also failed jokes that we can dismiss without further discussion. 

I want to say to Minerva that I didn't notice that extra information you posted earlier about non-conventional weapons; apologies I missed that.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 12, 2022)

The BBC has produced an article breaking down Russia's misinformation and claims about biological weapons in Ukraine.
Their allegations are evidently pretty similar to those they levelled at Georgia.








						Ukraine war: Fact-checking Russia's biological weapons claims
					

The BBC finds no evidence for Russian claims that Ukraine is developing biological weapons with US support.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Counties such as China, Syria and Iran have also made similar allegations.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> If frank wants us to believe his embarrassing comments were sarcastic, then we can only assume that his calls for military escalation, and his moral distress that men are asked to fight and not women, are also failed jokes that we can dismiss without further discussion.


The one you referenced WAS, it's not my problem if you couldn't understand it, I'm sure you're not that stupid, few people can actually be that dense naturally. I find it more likely that a certain few people who desperately want me to be evil have created this sort of folie à deux. But feel free to tell me you actually came up with this on your own, that would be disturbing


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> The one you referenced WAS, it's not my problem if you couldn't understand it, I'm sure you're not that stupid, few people can actually be that dense naturally. I find it more likely that a certain few people who desperately want me to be evil have created this sort of folie à deux. But feel free to tell me you actually came up with this on your own, that would be disturbing


I would say Fallow and Conor are not stupid at all.

Given the amount people who thought you were actually being serious and this was just another one of your bad takes, maybe other people's perception isn't the problem here and your general reputation is. 

I'd also argue that the Russian war against the Ukrainians is not something anyone should be joking about or sarcastic either.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Given the amount people who thought you were actually being serious and this was just another one of your bad takes, maybe other people's perception isn't the problem here


No, can just be the same three people encouraging each others into holding an objectively stupid opinion


Miles Marsalis said:


> I'd also argue that the Russian war against the Ukrainians is not something anyone should be joking about or sarcastic either


Yeah let's never use sarcasm and do jokes about serious topics, now our mood is a bit worse and that made the world a better place
^ That was sarcasm too in case you couldn't tell, it seems your clique has a bit of an issue with detecting that.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> No, can just be the same three people encouraging each others into holding an objectively stupid opinion
> 
> Yeah let's never use sarcasm and do jokes about serious topics, now our mood is a bit worse and that made the world a better place
> ^ That was sarcasm too in case you couldn't tell, it seems your clique has a bit of an issue with detecting that.


I mean, most users seemed believe you were. I didn't really care whether you were or weren't since it was in line with your your usual commentary.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, most users seemed believe you were


Did you collect anyone's opinion except that of the other two scrooges? if you did that further tells about your hideous manipulative obsessive behavior, but I don't think you did and you're talking out of your ass

^ that means calling the bluff, as people could do against Putin. Because yes reminder that the Ukraine war is the subject of this thread


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Did you collect anyone's opinion except that of the other two scrooges? if you did that further tells about your hideous manipulative obsessive behavior, but I don't think you did and you're talking out of your ass
> 
> ^ that means calling the bluff, as people could do against Putin. Because yes reminder that the Ukraine war is the subject of this thread


Everybody sees what you do and what you stand for, Frank, but if you feel you're good, do you.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Everybody sees what you do and what you stand for, Frank, but if you feel you're good, do you.


You're not speaking for anyone.

Wanna slide in my DMs if you have anything to try and substantiate your accusations? I know you love to do that and if "everybody" has an agreement on one point here, it's probably that this thread shouldn't get derailed because some creep has a bone to pick with me.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 12, 2022)

Yeah uh Frank you're kinda coming off as the aggressive one lol

If you need to defend yourself, do it elsewhere so we can keep this on topic pls


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 12, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You're not speaking for anyone.
> 
> Wanna slide in my DMs if you have anything to try and substantiate your accusations? I know you love to do that and if "everybody" has an agreement on one point here, it's probably that this thread shouldn't get derailed because some creep has a bone to pick with me.


I speak about what I see and you could ask around, Frank. I don't really want to continue this and I have no desire to talk to one-on-one because is a waste of words on my part.

I'm going to log off now, so you can take that as win if you want. I don't feel like wasting a nice night arguing with you pointlessly. 


The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Yeah uh Frank you're kinda coming off as the aggressive one lol
> 
> If you need to defend yourself, do it elsewhere so we can keep this on topic pls


Pardon and I hope your family is doing well through this.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 12, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Yeah uh Frank you're kinda coming off as the aggressive one lol
> 
> If you need to defend yourself, do it elsewhere so we can keep this on topic pls


Tell that to the three stooges, they're the ones who came at me with pointless accusations and insults, and derailed the thread

I've been the one offering to take that someplace else but suddenly, when it removes the opportunity to grandstand publicly, there's no time to waste on me, convenient.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 12, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> That said, in Ukraine, I can see why men, 18 to 60, are being conscripted to fight while women are not, since there is the issue of who will take care of the children in their families, particularly if they are fleeing the conflict.



Why are you implying that men are incapable of taking care of the children?
I think the sexist policies are... sexist. No one should be prevented from leaving if they wish to leave (my cousin was prevented from leaving with his family even though he's not in a condition to fight anyway), and it's ironic hearing some people defend this policy while also claiming that "man" and "woman" is a social construct. Whether it is or it's not, people should be free to move.

On a more relevant topic, this was a good video on the NATO situation.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 12, 2022)

Rassah said:


> Why are you implying that men are incapable of taking care of the children?
> I think the sexist policies are... sexist. No one should be prevented from leaving if they wish to leave (my cousin was prevented from leaving with his family even though he's not in a condition to fight anyway), and it's ironic hearing some people defend this policy while also claiming that "man" and "woman" is a social construct. Whether it is or it's not, people should be free to move.


I didn't? Men can take care of kids too, obviously. 

I said I can see why men are being are being conscripted by the government, though I have some misgivings about conscription in Ukraine under these circumstances, regardless of the gender of the conscripts. I'm also not Ukrainian, so I don't feel comfortable saying who should and should not be conscripted because it's not my country and I'm not putting my life on there in the fighting. Anyone leaving Ukraine, whatever their gender, I would not tell go back and fight; I''d rather any Ukrainians who didn't want to fight exit that battlespace rather risk dying there. 

I think women can perform as well as men in the military, but men were specifically chosen for conscription by the Ukrainian government because they needed a ready fighting force on a matter of days' notice. Just conscripting men sidesteps the issues of having to screen out pregnant women, having at one parent to escort the children in a family, and (grimly) repopulating the country after the war. 

I do think gender roles are a social construct, though, I'll admit that.


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 12, 2022)

Rassah said:


> Why are you implying that men are incapable of taking care of the children?
> I think the sexist policies are... sexist. No one should be prevented from leaving if they wish to leave (my cousin was prevented from leaving with his family even though he's not in a condition to fight anyway), and it's ironic hearing some people defend this policy while also claiming that "man" and "woman" is a social construct. Whether it is or it's not, people should be free to move.
> 
> On a more relevant topic, this was a good video on the NATO situation.



Exactly this!

Funny how the facade of equality breaks down when the shtf.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 12, 2022)

Getting back on topic, some nutjob shut down GPS at  Russian military base.









						Finland reports GPS disturbances in aircraft flying over Russia’s Kaliningrad
					

The interference began soon after a meeting between presidents Sauli Niinistö and Joe Biden




					www.theguardian.com
				




And no one can find the source.  Weird.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 13, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> I'm not so sure about this one. Putin seems to have a personal grudge towards the USA. It seems that his ultimate goal is a confrontation with this adversary of his.


Eh.... the Russians need a good working relationship with the U.S. as much as they can.... they can't afford a war with us, that's the bottom line..... and neither can we probably..... and every President since the 1980's has known this to some degree, and has always tried to "walk that fine line" - between keeping a weary eye on them on the one hand, but still warmly answering the telephone for them at the White House, on the other.

The Russians need our (U.S.'s) cooperation in certain geopolitical and commerce areas and they need to be able still call us when requesting it. It's an odd relationship our countries have..... but that's the way it is.

The Ukraine conflict (for them) isn't a launching pad for a full scale war with the U.S. though...... that I'm certain of.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 13, 2022)

Today there was another report that the Russian Troops used white phosphorus bombs against the city of popasna:









						Russian war criminals use phosphorus munitions in Popasna (video)
					

Russian troops in their attack on Ukraine’s Popasna used phosphorus munitions, explicitly banned by the Geneva Convention. — Ukrinform.




					www.ukrinform.net
				






Connor J. Coyote said:


> Eh.... the Russians need a good working relationship with the U.S. as much as they can.... they can't afford a war with us, that's the bottom line..... and neither can we probably..... and every President since the 1980's has known this to some degree, and has always tried to "walk that fine line" - between keeping a weary eye on them on the one hand, but still warmly answering the telephone for them at the White House, on the other.



This is true from a rational standpoint. But the question is how rational Putin still thinks. At the moment his endavor looks more like rampage than a militarry opperation with a clear strategic goal. Putin seems to belive his own lies while at the same time ignoring or dismiss possible consequences of his actions.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 13, 2022)

Regarding the _pages_ of back-and-forth about conscription, I actually think what's going on here is a contingent of the forum's young men who are scared about the prospect of conscription- so they're portraying male conscription as a sexist hypocrisy that discriminates against men.

Fair enough if this prospect scares you; it would indeed be frightening.
It is not likely at the moment that people in NATO countries are going to face conscription- but if it comes to that, then we will have to rise to it.


@Minerva_Minx
I think there have been reports for a while about Russia's ability to spoof GPS systems? 








						Study maps 'extensive Russian GPS spoofing'
					

Thousands of incidents have been logged of Russia spoofing navigation signals, a report suggests.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



Do you think GPS interference could be related to that?


----------



## Raever (Mar 13, 2022)

In regards to conscription, it applies to 18 - 25 year old males. Personal opinions on conscription aside, I thought that age range information might be useful all the same. Furthermore, if you're in no condition to be conscripted (ie. severe asthma, poor eyesight, etc) I don't think you'll be forced in. They want people who can fulfill "basic" expectations, not people who will get other soldiers killed because they aren't physically able to maintain those expectations. This is not to say that conscription is not scary, but rather, it's not as outdated as it used to be. At least not in the US (*that I'm aware of at the moment). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 13, 2022)

I believe that conscription is enacted when things are so bad that the Army is resorting to human wave tactics as a form of last resort.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 13, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> @Minerva_Minx
> I think there have been reports for a while about Russia's ability to spoof GPS systems?
> 
> 
> ...


​Voyennyy Aerodrom Chkalovsk?  Doubt it.  It's probably more about screwing with the naval fleet and radar than aircraft navigation.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 13, 2022)

Conscription as it relates to the US is both somewhat irrelevant to the thread’s subject matter (Russia’s invasion of Ukraine) and outdated due to the nature of the beast that is the current US military (partially re:how our military operates, partially re:the only scenarios wherein it becomes necessary are ones like “nukes fell on all our pre-existing military assets”, “US decides to wage war on the entire world”, “a civil war occurs and the military is split in loyalties / mostly anti-government”, or similar “You have bigger immediate problem" scenarios).

To steer things back towards the actual thread subject, a second Ukrainian mayor has been effectively kidnapped (_hopefully_ kidnapped, as the usual alternative when Russia puts a bag over somebody's head and forcibly drags them away under armed escort is "Unmarked shallow grave") just this last weekend. This does not bode well for either current or future occupied territories, as well as cements just how Russia might intend to occupy Ukraine.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 13, 2022)

Abductions in the American Revolution - Journal of the American Revolution
					

Book review: Abductions in the American Revolution: Attempts to Kidnap George Washington, Benedict Arnold and Other Military and Civilian Leaders by Christian McBurney (McFarland,...




					allthingsliberty.com
				











						Hizbullah leader: we regret the two kidnappings that led to war with Israel
					

Hizbullah admits it would not have captured the two Israeli soldiers last month had it known a war would follow.




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Abduction of Peace Activists Brings War Home in Italy (Published 2004)
					

In Italy, there is shock at abduction in Iraq of two women who worked for relief group that is outspokenly against war in Iraq and helps child victims of war; Europe seems stripped once again of hope that opposition to war would provide protection from future kidnappings or terror attacks...




					www.nytimes.com
				




This is not a viable strategy and rarely, is ever, works.  That is, unless Putin's strategy is to attempt to buy time by "using X's blood is on your hands even though I am doing this", which would be a KGB psychological attack.  Usually, this further galvanizes a country against you.  I would say this is more provocation to attempt to bring the US into the fight so he can use that as a national existential threat to galvanize Russia's population as it is fracturing and folding under sanctions.  I would expect a chemical weapons attack in a week


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 13, 2022)

Well, this happened:








						Official: Drone that crashed in Croatia carried a bomb
					

A military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three European NATO-member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital was armed with an explosive device, Croatia’s defense minister said Sunday.  The Soviet-made aircraft crossed Romania and...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 13, 2022)

Brent Renaud, an America film maker, has been shot dead in Irpin outside of Kyiv.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 13, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> Brent Renaud, an America film maker, has been shot dead in Irpin outside of Kyiv.


I heard. He was a good journalist. Condolences to his family.

This is a reminder how dangerous covering this conflict is.


----------



## Gushousekai195 (Mar 14, 2022)

It’s really upsetting to see Russian furry artists cut off from PayPal, which was the means of earning their income! There may be alternatives out there, but it’s only a matter of time before they, too, get unplugged in Russia.

I don’t see PayPal’s services and similar being restored in Russia anytime soon, unless Putin is overthrown. And, that won’t happen anytime soon either. Vox says that Putin’s Russia is “an extremely effective autocracy with strong guardrails against coups and revolutions.”


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 14, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> But the question is how rational Putin still thinks. At the moment his endavor looks more like rampage than a militarry opperation with a clear strategic goal. Putin seems to belive his own lies while at the same time ignoring or dismiss possible consequences of his actions.


Well, there's an article I read recently that kind of speaks to that. Author and political scientist Francis Fukuyama said that the Russian military is now facing the possibility of “outright defeat” in Ukraine.

And he’s warning Russian President Vladimir Putin that the end could be swift - for both his military and also his more than two-decade rule over the nation.

_“The collapse of their position could be sudden and catastrophic, rather than happening slowly through a war of attrition”,_ he wrote for the American Purpose website. _“The army in the field will reach a point where it can neither be supplied nor withdrawn, and morale will vaporize”._

Fukuyama blamed it on incompetent war planning by Moscow, which anticipated that its forces would be welcomed in Ukraine. _“Russian soldiers were evidently carrying dress uniforms for their victory parade in Kyiv rather than extra ammo and rations”,_ he writes.

Now, those soldiers are stuck outside of Ukraine's large cities, facing both supply issues and constant attacks from Ukrainian forces. And if they’re defeated he predicted, that would also spell the end of Putin's rule.

_“Putin will not survive the defeat of his army,” he wrote. “He gets support because he is perceived to be a strongman; what does he have to offer once he demonstrates incompetence and is stripped of his coercive power"?_

But.... personally, I don't think the Ukranians should be "popping the champagne" just yet; as (to me at least) some of this author's analysis may be a little biased and a bit of wishful thinking on his part.... even borderline propaganda, it could be argued.... but (I guess) for the poor Ukrainians in any case - only time will tell.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 14, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> But.... personally, I don't think the Ukranians should be "popping the champagne" just yet; as (to me at least) some of this author's analysis may be a little biased and a bit of wishful thinking on his part.... even borderline propaganda, it could be argued.... but (I guess) for the poor Ukrainians in any case - only time will tell.



I agree on that. But even if assume it's going this direction, there still would be several issues resulting from that. Putin doesn't seem like the guy who's backing down so easily, he rather will double down on beating his dead horse then dismounting it. And this could lead to an even more dangerous escalation. There also doesn't seem to be an entourage able to give Putin a reality check anymore. So his way out of office would probably be more like a romanowic retirement then a peacful transfer of power. And 6.900 nuclear warheads in a power vacuum are as dangerous as these beeing in the hands of a lunatic.

So there's indeed plenty of reasons to stay vigilant.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 14, 2022)

I got sick a few days ago, my mother is sick, my father was sent to war. And it seems the war will not end any sooner. This is hell.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 14, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> I got sick a few days ago, my mother is sick, my father was sent to war. And it seems the war will not end any sooner. This is hell.


I'm sorry about your illnesses, but do you have access to medical help if you need it?


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 14, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I'm sorry about your illnesses, but do you have access to medical help if you need it?


My father and/or his friends bought some medicine.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 14, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> My father and/or his friends bought some medicine.


I'm happy he was able to do so and hopefully you're both recovering. I know things must be difficult for you both.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 14, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> I got sick a few days ago, my mother is sick, my father was sent to war. And it seems the war will not end any sooner. This is hell.



This sounds rather dismal indeed. Has your city came under siege aswell by now? The last things I heard was that many refugees from Sumy went there.


----------



## Ringo the Wolf (Mar 14, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> This sounds rather dismal indeed. Has your city came under siege aswell by now? The last things I heard was that many refugees from Sumy went there.


It's quiet here, in the suburban where I am. I yesterday saw a jet with my mother, it was one of our Su-27 from Myrgorod squadron flying around. We figured it was patrolling, especially when we noticed two busses on the highway, that is most likely refugees.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 14, 2022)

Another bit of fuckery from all this. PayPal, VISA, SWIFT, and other banking services cut off all Russians, and banks are generally very iffy around Ukraine right now with ATMs being out of cash and bank access being spotty. In this whole war, both Russian and Ukrainian civilians are getting wrecked. Including Russian and Ukrainian furry artists, for many of whom commissions and donations are their full time jobs and their only source of income. 

The only thing that still works reliably for them is cryptocurrencies, which have also been used to both donate to Ukrainian government and charities to help with the war, and to help send money to friends and family in those countries directly. 

As a result of this situation, a lot of Russian and Ukrainian furry artists started soliciting payments in crypto instead. Including on FA, which for some reason is still one of the biggest furry art sharing services out there. So what does FA do? It adds a rule to ban all promotion of crypto *facepalm* I'm having a lot of desperate furs from that area contacting me for help to teach them how to accept and use it, and they're not even angry, they're just desperate and crying. But I'm angry. At FA. What a stupid move to hurt those who need help the most right now


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 14, 2022)

Rassah said:


> So what does FA do? It adds a rule to ban all promotion of crypto *facepalm* I'm having a lot of desperate furs from that area contacting me for help to teach them how to accept and use it, and they're not even angry, they're just desperate and crying. But I'm angry. At FA. What a stupid move to hurt those who need help the most right now


I assume it's about straight up advertising crypto/nfts and websites relating to them. Because not too long before that rule went up, I saw someone try to make a thread on here advertising a crypto site. I don't see why FA would private transactions using crypto

@Flamingo Would you be able to clarify?


----------



## Fcomega121 (Mar 14, 2022)

I wish I could help further, but I'll post this








						30 Meaningful Ways You Can Help Ukraine
					

Since the Russia-Ukraine conflict began eight years ago, 1.5 million people have fled their homes and a further 3.4 million people are in need of aid.




					t.co


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 14, 2022)

To clarify, COC 3.5 only specifically pertains to like .. selling NFTs or trying to get someone to buy your cool new coin. Artists can accept crypto payments, etc. It's not worded well. Don't look at me, I don't write the rules. @Rassah


----------



## Gushousekai195 (Mar 14, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> To clarify, COC 3.5 only specifically pertains to like .. selling NFTs or trying to get someone to buy your cool new coin. Artists can accept crypto payments, etc. It's not worded well. Don't look at me, I don't write the rules. @Rassah


Nice, but I’m not going to feel too well buying cryptocurrencies just to commission people.

There’s still the environmental implications for the stuff.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 14, 2022)

Gushousekai195 said:


> Nice, but I’m not going to feel too well buying cryptocurrencies just to commission people.
> 
> There’s still the environmental implications for the stuff.


Still less environmental havoc than the Russians are doing to Ukraine.

That said, your unease is not wrong, and trying to pressure you into the whole crypto thing with this would be scummy as all get-out.

If you still want to help, there are many other ways.


----------



## Gushousekai195 (Mar 14, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Still less environmental havoc than the Russians are doing to Ukraine.
> 
> That said, your unease is not wrong, and trying to pressure you into the whole crypto thing with this would be scummy as all get-out.
> 
> If you still want to help, there are many other ways.


We’re talking in the atmosphere, not on the ground.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 14, 2022)

Gushousekai195 said:


> We’re talking in the atmosphere, not on the ground.


Don't the explosions and shelling count as both?  Buildings don't exactly collapse cleanly, for starters...

.....look, I'll hear out one answer and then I want to break off from that train of thought.  It occurs to me just how insensitive this can get if I go much further.  If others want to pick up the argument in my stead, that's on them.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 14, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> I agree on that. But even if assume it's going this direction, there still would be several issues resulting from that. Putin doesn't seem like the guy who's backing down so easily, he rather will double down on beating his dead horse then dismounting it. And this could lead to an even more dangerous escalation. There also doesn't seem to be an entourage able to give Putin a reality check anymore. So his way out of office would probably be more like a romanowic retirement then a peacful transfer of power. And 6.900 nuclear warheads in a power vacuum are as dangerous as these beeing in the hands of a lunatic.
> 
> So there's indeed plenty of reasons to stay vigilant.


Yeah.... well - it's food for thought for people in any case.
------------------------
But, come to think of it..... I should probably link the article where there's more information, (if people are interested in reading up on it further), and where I got my analysis from: https://news.yahoo.com/francis-fukuyama-says-russian-defeat-151930205.html

Whilst I do think many of his points are certainly laudable, they're probably a bit of too much wishful thinking on his part.... but, I suppose we'll see. I don't see Putin leaving though in all honesty..... even if they are (possibly) defeated, but....I could be wrong there. I guess we'll see also.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 14, 2022)

Ringo the Wolf said:


> It's quiet here, in the suburban where I am. I yesterday saw a jet with my mother, it was one of our Su-27 from Myrgorod squadron flying around. We figured it was patrolling, especially when we noticed two busses on the highway, that is most likely refugees.


Glad you are safe for the moment.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 15, 2022)

https://www.timesnews.net/germany-s...cle_1a840048-a292-11ec-9d0a-5bf59127fa9a.html Could've happened before that when the previous US administration advised them to do that, and maybe this mess wouldn't have happened in the first place. Instead the new administration removed sanctions on Russian oil to much German cheering. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

Current administration and the German government cry a river now, a tad bit late isn't it.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 15, 2022)

Frank, never misses an opportunity to remind us he dislikes the current administration.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 15, 2022)

Gushousekai195 said:


> We’re talking in the atmosphere, not on the ground.


I imagine the amount of air pollution from exhaust of those hundreds of tanks and air vehicles Russians have used just in this war alone greatly surpasses all of that. (btw, the claims of pollution are greatly exaggerated)
And you don't have to use it, but plenty of other people do. Hopefully FA clears up the rules so artists feel okay soliciting payments in that form.

In other news, another area near where I grew up got shelled last night. In this one they're aiming for a factory that produces automotive supplies that include those used by military equipment, and ended up destroying a huge large civilian area around it, including a metro station.
Also zoos are now struggling to survive and keep their animals fed...


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 15, 2022)

A symbolic yet important and brave gesture: the prime ministers of Poland, Czech Republic and Slovenia, on the behalf of the European Union, are going to personally meet Zelensky in Kiyv. The visit was being prepared in secrecy together with the European Council and was announced today as they are already underway.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 15, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> Frank, never misses an opportunity to remind us he dislikes the current administration.


It's not "disliking" in this case, these actions have objectively made the situation eons worse. For sure it's dislikable, in fact I would question the good faith of anyone liking it at this point.

This being said this is why I'm here 




Hahaha! bless this hero


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 15, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> https://www.timesnews.net/germany-s...cle_1a840048-a292-11ec-9d0a-5bf59127fa9a.html Could've happened before that when the previous US administration advised them to do that, and maybe this mess wouldn't have happened in the first place. Instead the new administration removed sanctions on Russian oil to much German cheering. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674
> 
> Current administration and the German government cry a river now, a tad bit late isn't it.



That mess was caused by Merkle and her Conservative party which downplayed Putin's dangerousness for years. She sold us off, seeking even closer economic relationships with the Kremlin elites even after the annexation of Crimea in 2014 . And it was also Merkle that advocated against an EU or NATO membership of the Ukraine. The CDU is as corrupted as the russian oligarchs, and some even got payed by the Putin regime to do their lobby work. I never voted for her or her party, but beeing a German I'm still ashamed for the attitude of our government.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 15, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> That mess was caused by Merkle and her Conservative party which downplayed Putin's dangerousness for years. She sold us off, seeking even closer economic relationships with the Kremlin elites even after the annexation of Crimea in 2014 . And it was also Merkle that advocated against an EU or NATO membership of the Ukraine. The CDU is as corrupted as the russian oligarchs, and some even got payed by the Putin regime to do their lobby work. I never voted for her or her party, but beeing a German I'm still ashamed for the attitude of our government.


This person (I think it's spelled Merkel) seems to have failed on many issues, not sure how she stayed in power for so long, probably through a combination of a lack of a better alternative and symbiosis with corrupt politicians from other countries as well, got these sanctions lifted (same guy who was vice-president when the whole Ukraine situation started, probably not a coincidence)


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 15, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> The CDU is as corrupted as the russian oligarchs, and some even got payed by the Putin regime to do their lobby work. I never voted for her or her party, but beeing a German I'm still ashamed for the attitude of our government.


While I'm not a CDU supporter this statement is grossly exaggerated. _Grossly_ exaggerated.

When it comes to apportioning blame to Germany's pro-russian attitudes, the only relevant party that was opposed to this was the greens, everyone else (extreme left, extreme right, moderate left and moderate right) was (or still is) fairly pro-putin. 

Same is with the current situation the German military is in. That wasn't just the conservative's doing, _everyone _was involved in that.

I'm glad people are finally shifting in the correct direction now.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 15, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> This being said this is why I'm here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She was already arrested maybe 10 minutes later, and she is already "disappeared" where her attorneys don't know where she is, since she's not with the police or any jails.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 15, 2022)

She has resurfaced, thankfully.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503768693569994754


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 15, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> This person (I think it's spelled Merkel) seems to have failed on many issues, not sure how she stayed in power for so long, probably through a combination of a lack of a better alternative and symbiosis with corrupt politicians from other countries as well, got these sanctions lifted (same guy who was vice-president when the whole Ukraine situation started, probably not a coincidence)



Merkel represented an archetype of politician which was favoured here for many years. She seemed sober, prosaic and pragmatic keeping problems out of the way. That's why she got elected again and again for nearly 16 years. Germans love the Status Quo. But this was just a neat veneer covering years of stagnation, mismanagement and dodgy dealings. In the end politicans are like diapers. Both should be changed once in a while for the same reason.



ConorHyena said:


> While I'm not a CDU supporter this statement is grossly exaggerated. _Grossly_ exaggerated.
> 
> When it comes to apportioning blame to Germany's pro-russian attitudes, the only relevant party that was opposed to this was the greens, everyone else (extreme left, extreme right, moderate left and moderate right) was (or still is) fairly pro-putin.



Indeed. There were many hands building to this mess left and right ones. I was just refering to the ones beeing in charge for the last 16 years. But still there have been many more which own us some answers, and a really hope that our fellow citizens will now start to ask these.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 15, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> Frank, never misses an opportunity to remind us he dislikes the current administration.


I agree with Frank, tbh.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 15, 2022)

I hope you guys over in Ukraine are reasonably ok.  Being shot at, directly or indirectly, doesn't confer much confidence in safety.  I guess the Russian troops have gone full Fascist with the taking of hostages in a hospital.

Gallows humor: Russia has lost more in three weeks in Ukraine than the US in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.  Also, every 20 hours, Ukrainian forces fire 1 weeks worth of ammunition and explosives compared to US.  So it's either really good or we're just stingy AF with our engagements.

Good news (if there is such a thing) is most of the money spent updating the Russian army was found to be funneled into the pockets of the oligarchs and put in hidden accounts.  So, right now the best predictor of what's going on is the game Tropico 5.

In the words of Heero from Gundam Wing, "It's possible that this era of war has gone nuts."


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 15, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Good news (if there is such a thing) is most of the money spent updating the Russian army was found to be funneled into the pockets of the oligarchs and put in hidden accounts.  So, right now the best predictor of what's going on is the game Tropico 5.


This is the cockpit of an SU-34. Yes, that is an old commercial GPS C-clamped to the dash


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 16, 2022)

Welp, time to do some mathemagics.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 16, 2022)

Also, this is stupid








						Russia is seizing Western-built airliners while sanctions block parts, maintenance, and support
					

The jets will be added to the country's aircraft register and be deployed on domestic routes, but Western sanctions will make fleet maintenance difficult.




					www.yahoo.com
				




Mainly, because of the whole no parts and fuel thing, but mostly because of how petty it is.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 16, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> Merkel represented an archetype of politician which was favoured here for many years. She seemed sober, prosaic and pragmatic keeping problems out of the way. That's why she got elected again and again for nearly 16 years. Germans love the Status Quo. But this was just a neat veneer covering years of stagnation, mismanagement and dodgy dealings. In the end politicans are like diapers. Both should be changed once in a while for the same reason.


Loving the status quo becomes a problem when the status quo is rotting and all the little opportunist worms making shady deals are the most alive thing about it


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 16, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> This is the cockpit of an SU-34. Yes, that is an old commercial GPS C-clamped to the dash


Seen that one already! This says something about their own GLONASS nav system, methinks...


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 16, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I hope you guys over in Ukraine are reasonably ok.  Being shot at, directly or indirectly, doesn't confer much confidence in safety.  I guess the Russian troops have gone full Fascist with the taking of hostages in a hospital.
> 
> Gallows humor: Russia has lost more in three weeks in Ukraine than the US in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.  Also, every 20 hours, Ukrainian forces fire 1 weeks worth of ammunition and explosives compared to US.  So it's either really good or we're just stingy AF with our engagements.
> 
> ...


It has. 

I just read that Russia has so far lost 4 generals. At least, Ukraine claimed so and Russia didn't deny. It's insane, what were they even doing at the front line?

Could it be that the Russian troops are so unwilling to fight that the brass had a need to go there and command them in person? In that case this is failed as fuck, seeing your general killed in front of you doesn't exactly boost your morale, does it...

About the money for the army being wasted, there were some really absurd cases described. Such as a company which got a millions-worth contract for developing a new precision guidance for artillery. Except that the company didn't really exist and the address it was registered at was some bar or somesuch.

Kleptocracy at work.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 16, 2022)

Generals are sent to the "front" a lot.  There's two reasons and a third principle.
Principle first: in war, the chaos of the battlefield and timing between action and reaction is such that if strategy needs to change, Generals typically carry the playbook.Front for them is now usually a bunker or secure facility outside the conflict zone as most I have met are soft squishy squeemish politicians and not people say like Patton or MacArthur whom you want on the frontlines.  Even Marine Corps or Army never took risks, those are enlisted problems.

When deployed, you're usually looking for a morale boost of now we are getting logistics, command and control, and hell to the yes, the guys upstairs really have this keyed in.  Again, soft squishy squeemish politician.  They will bolt.  So does losing a General hurt?  Yes and no.  Professional military, next guy moves up and status quo moves.  Replacement will be replaced later.  Russia?  Not so sure as they do not seem to like juniors taking initiative.

Finally, discipline.  Being politicians, they carry the party line and are typically very, very good at national pride.  So it will be a very good annd hard discipline case on anyone getting out of line.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 16, 2022)

Generals being forward are probably a reflection of communication issues. Otherwise, Russian doctrine dictates the communication architecture being HF heavy for command nodes, so the Ukranians are probably feeding on that to target command posts. 

The loss of a general officer is a significant morale hit and coupled with the fact they're losing field grade officers in droves, not sure who would be left to carry the torch in some instances.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 16, 2022)

Enlightening to see the new york times publish garbage like this https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/opinion/china-russia-ukraine.html when we know from credible sources China is far from neutral in this story. https://www.ocregister.com/2022/03/...ussia-to-delay-invasion-until-after-olympics/ Interesting to watch communist propaganda in action, I just wish there would be a disclaimer precising that it is propaganda and the author is affiliated with the United Front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_(China)

_"Ideologically, China has common ground with both Ukraine and Russia. China deeply values the principle of state sovereignty and has long opposed outside interference in what it considers internal affairs such as Taiwan." _*That *is just sinister.... is he saying what I think he's saying? equating INVADING Ukraine with having the right to invade Taiwan..?


----------



## Rassah (Mar 16, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Gallows humor: Russia has lost more in three weeks in Ukraine than the US in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.  Also, every 20 hours, Ukrainian forces fire 1 weeks worth of ammunition and explosives compared to US.  So it's either really good or we're just stingy AF with our engagements.



I think it was because US involvement there was mostly defensive, policing and protecting certain small areas, where if you don't mess with the bases they don't mess with you, while Russia's role is completely offensive where they're trying to take over the whole country, and are thus being shot at by everyone for messing with everything.


Flamingo said:


> Generals being forward are probably a reflection of communication issues.


I heard (not substantiated) that vans of Russian police showed up in Kiev on day 3 or 4 after the invasion, and they were walking around confused because no one told them that Russia failed to capture Kiev in 3 days like it planned to.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 16, 2022)

Rassah said:


> I heard (not substantiated) that vans of Russian police showed up in Kiev on day 3 or 4 after the invasion, and they were walking around confused because no one told them that Russia failed to capture Kiev in 3 days like it planned to.


Those guys are real, but they never made it to Kyiv. Their transport van was stopped by Ukrainian soldiers some distance outside Kyiv and the riot police were all killed or captured


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 16, 2022)

Also, something for all you who aren't aware. Try to spell it *Kyiv* (based on the ukrainian language) and *not Kiev* (based on the russian language).


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 16, 2022)

Pomorek said:


> Seen that one already! This says something about their own GLONASS nav system, methinks...


They could actually be using it as a backup in case their satellites become jammed.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 16, 2022)

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...n-border-had-gps-issues-and-not-for-the-first

it's beautiful.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 16, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Also, something for all you who aren't aware. Try to spell it *Kyiv* (based on the ukrainian language) and *not Kiev* (based on the russian language).


I'm Ukrainian, from that city, and mostly speak Russian, as do most of my friends from that city. Can I get a pass and call it either one?


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 16, 2022)

Also is it pronounced "Keyv" and not "Key ev"?

Stupid American needs to know, like, me


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 16, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Also is it pronounced "Keyv" and not "Key ev"?
> 
> Stupid American needs to know, like, me


Just say it like 'Keev'. The Ukrainian pronunciation is awkward for english speakers, kinda sounds like 'Kuh-yiv' (I say Keev myself as I don't speak Ukrainian and don't have really any exposure to the language either despite some Ukrainian family members)


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 16, 2022)

It is worth pointing out that two journalists working for 'Fox News' recently died in Ukraine. Domestic Ukrainian journalists have also lost peers. 
I saw that Marina Ovsannyikova's safety was mentioned after she disappeared for 2 days. 'Brittney Grinner', America's most successful woman basketball player has been missing for over a month since she was detained on what are likely to be fabricated drugs charges in Moscow airport. 

President Zelenskyy appears to have offered an 'off-ramp' by suggestion Ukraine won't join NATO, which would allow Putin to claim a sort of 'victory'. 
I am worried about the precedent it sets though- because it risks validating Russia's lies about Ukraine being a military threat that required intervention, and because it gives Russia the message that they can change sovereign nations' political ambitions by murdering their citizens. :\


----------



## Filter (Mar 17, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Just say it like 'Keev'. The Ukrainian pronunciation is awkward for english speakers, kinda sounds like 'Kuh-yiv' (I say Keev myself as I don't speak Ukrainian and don't have really any exposure to the language either despite some Ukrainian family members)


To my North American ears, it sounds like "Kyiv". One syllable, with "yiv" spoken like "give", if give started with a K. A family member spent time over there a few years ago. When she returned, she pronounced it "Keev" like "Steve", whereas we were still saying "Key-yev".


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 17, 2022)

We will eventually get a proper phonetic spelling and demonstration.

And then we will meme it and pass it.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 17, 2022)

Because I can speak Russian it’s been always _Kiev _for me.


----------



## Rimna (Mar 17, 2022)

Refugees have started settling in my home town, and in the town I visited last weekend. I saw a couple of women traveling together. There is now a place in my home town, where people can provide food and supplies specifically for the refugees who will reside here. This is good, maybe I'll gather a few things and drop them off next week.

Our country will also provide 20 euros a day per person - given that they fill in the required forms and all. A lot of people are understandably angry about it, because this is more money than most people make here. I know I made less at my old job. But then, we aren't bombed and killed on the streets and in our homes.

While I've limited the time I spend on news regarding the war, I do follow things daily.  It's just about starting to sink in with me what a hell this is. Seeing those women in person, seeing their eyes... my greatest fear has come to live. I dread war more than anything else. And now it is at our doorstep.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 17, 2022)

I can't really shake the thought..... in that, there's a part of me that wonders if this conflict will escalate even further than it already has at some point....... should the Ukraine fall - and Russia takes it over. I can't help but wonder if a newly emboldened Russia will go even further than Ukraine at that point, and seek even more.

If I lived in any of the former (15) Soviet countries the border Russia, I'd be watching this conflict with Ukraine very nervously right now..... could there be other nations, (that are former Soviet states) "on the list next" after Ukraine? And if so - will the EU and the US directly intervene at that point militarily to help those countries out, and most interestingly..... will China possibly back Russia at some point?

If all this were to fall into place the right way - it could, (in my mind) possibly result in another World War.

I've talked to some friends about this and some of them said we can only speculate about the future military plans that are going on inside the Kremlin.

But I suppose (as I said earlier) - time will tell....... but the EU (and to a lesser extent) - the US, will need to make some harder decisions later on down the road if this conflict spirals down any further, I think.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 17, 2022)

Not much we can do.  Speculate all we want, it's going to be in the hands of people that while we know they have no regard for our lives, they are still very much in their position of power.  Even in daily life, I've had commanders in the US military who specifically singled out people to vent their frustrations and hatred on.  I know I vote for people in my government I hope represent my values and what I want accomplished, but I'm fairly certain on they have the power of representation they stop caring a out 99% of people any more and more for their power and status.  In war, no one but the person to the left and right of you cares.  The people you lead look to you for confidence, direction, and safety.  The people above you see you as a cog in a machine.  The public sees you as a nuisance at best, menace at worst, and money pit most times, and your life is just that thing that may as well be nothing more disturbing than the decision to wear which pants in my closet.  There's no control at my level.

I am sympathetic to the refugees as I haven't been in there position, but the same distrust, intolerance, and feelings the have are very similar to being on the lonely battlefield.  You are treated differently for no other reason than circumstance and are a spectacle to be watched and unbelieved until seen.  What you are now, we once were; what we are now, you shall be.  It's deeply personal and reflective, even if I saw it in a crypt.

Traffic from a lot of Russian and Ukrainians is down.  A few have VPN, but I suspect those will go away soon.  And people are fighting back, even dying, for things so simple and so held in Western culture that I cannot believe sometimes the nonchalant response.  I'm not normal and I've come to accept that, but still, I just wish everything and everywhere didn't have to be a fight or a war or some existential doom outside my control.  I can only give notice of support when that doom has befallen someone else.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 17, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> If all this were to fall into place the right way - it could, (in my mind) possibly result in another World War.
> 
> I've talked to some friends about this and some of them said we can only speculate about the future military plans that are going on inside the Kremlin.



Considdering Putins last speech, there doesn't seem to be a plan anymore. He's just repeating the same allegations over and other, talking about the evil west trying to destroy russia, while at the same time lashing out towards his alleged enemies inside his own ranks. He seems to get more thin-skinned and delusinal while his supporters turn their back to him. The only danger would be some kind of desperate move when he feels cornered. But either way there's no way he could save his "Strongman" image. And without that his whole narrative of power crumbles.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 17, 2022)

While we can't know exactly what Putin and Kremlin are thinking, we do have some of idea of their long-term geopolitical strategy since there has been a lot of published literature outlining coming out of Russia, the foremost of which is _The Foundation of Geopolitics_ by Alexander Dugin, which @dragon-in-sight astutely pointed out earlier.









						Foundations of Geopolitics - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Alexander Dugin has been one of the central intellectuals heeded in Russia's ruling circles and his book been a set text in the Russian staff college for the past two decades. Putin himself has frequently touted the book as influencing his thinking.

I've read the book and it is eerily prescient in predicting the Russian influence campaigns here in the States and in Europe targeted toward the far-right, the invasion of Georgia and Ukraine, and Russia's internal politics because this book has been used as a roadmap for those trends. 

For anyone looking to understand the current paradigm, the book is an invaluable resource.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 17, 2022)

Was reading a discussion on the $800 mil package of gear and weapons sent to ukraine by the USA.

My favourite comment on it: "Russia is about to find out why we don't have free healthcare"


----------



## Ramjet (Mar 17, 2022)

Impressive to see the use of personal drones being used by citizens for recon and target acquisition in this conflict.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 17, 2022)

Ramjet said:


> Impressive to see the use of personal drones being used by citizens for recon and target acquisition in this conflict.


Hams are messing with russian radio comms too
And they're getting creative, one guy jammed a russian frequency that was getting heavy use with a sound sequence that when decoded makes a troll face


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 17, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Hams are messing with russian radio comms too
> And they're getting creative, one guy jammed a russian frequency that was getting heavy use with a sound sequence that when decoded makes a troll face


SDR operators unite.


----------



## TurbidCyno (Mar 17, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Hams are messing with russian radio comms too
> And they're getting creative, one guy jammed a russian frequency that was getting heavy use with a sound sequence that when decoded makes a troll face



I Wonder if The Buzzer is still getting hacked.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 18, 2022)

The war won't stop until ssaannttoo returns.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 18, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> If I lived in any of the former (15) Soviet countries the border Russia, I'd be watching this conflict with Ukraine very nervously right now..... could there be other nations, (that are former Soviet states) "on the list next" after Ukraine? And if so - will the EU and the US directly intervene at that point militarily to help those countries out, and most interestingly..... will China possibly back Russia at some point?
> 
> If all this were to fall into place the right way - it could, (in my mind) possibly result in another World War.
> 
> I've talked to some friends about this and some of them said we can only speculate about the future military plans that are going on inside the Kremlin.


Well, in any case... this is a real possibility, my point..... and it's not something that I don't think people should minimize, discount, and "write off" as too far fetched. It can happen..... and it can affect all of us if it does.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 18, 2022)

There are some more concering reports. It looks like the russian executive staff is getting evacuated from Moscow and brought to bunkers in the southern ural region right now. May be it's just another confusian tactic by the regime but it has a quite fishy taste in regards to putins last speech, where he invoked a "cleansing" of russia.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 18, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> There are some more concering reports. It looks like the russian executive staff is getting evacuated from Moscow and brought to bunkers in the southern ural region right now. May be it's just another confusian tactic by the regime but it has a quite fishy taste in regards to putins last speech, where he invoked a "cleansing" of russia.


Well shit, what if on top of allowing for more suffering and contributing to higher energy prices, the sanctions strategy also didn't prevent escalation? I already feared that but I swear if I'm proven right again I turn goth.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 18, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Well shit, what if on top of allowing for more suffering and contributing to higher energy prices, the sanctions strategy also didn't prevent escalation? I already feared that but I swear if I'm proven right again I turn goth.


No, you'll turn glass.

Also, weren't you the one advocating for NATO boots on the ground in the ukraine?


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 18, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> weren't you the one advocating for NATO boots on the ground in the ukraine?


If Putin either goes ahead with his nukemania in the near future, OR was bluffing all along, which gathers 99% of the likely scenarios, I was fucking right


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 18, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> If Putin either goes ahead with his nukemania in the near future, OR was bluffing all along, which gathers 99% of the likely scenarios, I was fucking right


Putin actually launching a nuclear attack and Putin bluffing about a nuclear attack are two diametrically opposed scenarios, most reasonable people would say.

Contradictions aside, the Biden administration along with the European Union are wise to institute the sanctions now because they are clearly already negatively affecting the Russian economy and putting pressure on the Russian people, Russia's ministries, the oligarchs, and Putin himself, therefore incentivizing them to change course while degrading their warmaking capacity. 

If there is an escalation, Russia will be significantly weakened for it and less able to respond effectively, further giving us and our allies an upper hand.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 19, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Putin actually launching a nuclear attack and Putin bluffing about a nuclear attack are two diametrically opposed scenarios, most reasonable people would say.
> 
> Contradictions aside, the Biden administration along with the European Union are wise to institute the sanctions now because they are clearly already negatively affecting the Russian economy and putting pressure on the Russian people, Russia's ministries, the oligarchs, and Putin himself, therefore incentivizing them to change course while degrading their warmaking capacity.
> 
> If there is an escalation, Russia will be significantly weakened for it and less able to respond effectively, further giving us and our allies an upper hand.


We have established that it's not honest mistakes, you purposely misrepresent everything I say, so in your own words I'm not going to waste any time debating with you


----------



## TR273 (Mar 19, 2022)

Meanwhile...
The UK is sending Ukraine a load of fire engines and fire fighting equipment.








						Ukraine: Fire engine convoy leaves UK with vital supplies for firefighters
					

The 22 vehicles containing equipment offered from across the UK will reach Poland in three days.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 19, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Well shit, what if on top of allowing for more suffering and contributing to higher energy prices, the sanctions strategy also didn't prevent escalation? I already feared that but I swear if I'm proven right again I turn goth.



If there hadn't been any sanctions or other masures in reaction to Putin's aggression, the situation would have escalted even faster. Now there's at least a chance that his regime get's starved of recources, before it escaltes into a WW3. Paying a bit more for Gas and Gasoline is a small price when it saves our freedom and human lives in the long run.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 19, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> If there hadn't been any sanctions or other masures in reaction to Putin's aggression, the situation would have escalted even faster. Now there's at least a chance that his regime get's starved of recources, before it escaltes into a WW3. Paying a bit more for Gas and Gasoline is a small price when it saves our freedom and human lives in the long run.


True, all I'm saying is that it's proving insufficient


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 19, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> True, all I'm saying is that it's proving insufficient


How?

In Russia, the average citizen can't execute basic financial transactions, the Russian government is on the brink of defaulting on its debt, the ruble is crashing, Russia is isolated from international trade and business, and their military is scrambling to finance basic operations. Russia is guaranteed now to fall into an economic depression.

We're only a few weeks into this conflict and the sanctions; it'll get worse for Russia as time goes on.

Plus, they're sustaining heavy losses while not meeting the basic strategic objectives and timeline they originally set out for the invasion, so even that is going wrong for them.

All of this will effect their warfighting capabilities.



Frank Gulotta said:


> We have established that it's not honest mistakes, you purposely misrepresent everything I say, so in your own words I'm not going to waste any time debating with you


You basically listed the only two scenarios possible while making no distinction between the pitfalls of the two.

If Putin is bluffing about deploying nuclear weapons, tactical or strategic, then direct military engagement from NATO isn't as risky, though soldiers will die in that conflict and NATO getting directly involved will definitely escalate the conflict.

If Putin isn't bluffing, then at best, he deploys tactical nuclear weapons in the battlespace and that will have severe consequences for civilians and combatants alike in Ukraine and possibly Europe.

At worst, he orders the use of strategic nuclear weapons and escalation won't be a problem because most of us will be dead.

Those are wildly varying outcomes.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 19, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> If Putin isn't bluffing, then at best, he deploys tactical in the battlespace and that will severe consequences for civilians and combatants in Ukraine and possibly Europe.


I must say that even if Putin responds with a single tactical nuke, that isn’t going to be tolerated by the West. And so we will likely respond in kind.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 19, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> I must say that even if Putin responds with a single tactical nuke, that isn’t going to be tolerated by the West. And so we will likely respond in kind.


I don't think NATO will stand for it either, but this conflict will become in a way that I think people aren't considering enough.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 19, 2022)

TR273 said:


> Meanwhile...
> The UK is sending Ukraine a load of fire engines and fire fighting equipment.
> 
> 
> ...



I think we're also the only major country in Europe that hasn't yet waived visa requirements for Ukrainian refugees. 
The UK's approach to this is very varied on different fronts.


----------



## Simo (Mar 19, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Enlightening to see the new york times publish garbage like this https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/opinion/china-russia-ukraine.html when we know from credible sources China is far from neutral in this story. https://www.ocregister.com/2022/03/...ussia-to-delay-invasion-until-after-olympics/ Interesting to watch communist propaganda in action, I just wish there would be a disclaimer precising that it is propaganda and the author is affiliated with the United Front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_(China)
> 
> _"Ideologically, China has common ground with both Ukraine and Russia. China deeply values the principle of state sovereignty and has long opposed outside interference in what it considers internal affairs such as Taiwan." _*That *is just sinister.... is he saying what I think he's saying? equating INVADING Ukraine with having the right to invade Taiwan..?


Do you ever shut up about the NYT?


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 20, 2022)

Simo said:


> Do you ever shut up about the NYT?


I'm sure if you check my post history (if you can even do that, I think there's a way to do it) you'll find I indeed post about this piece of shit every day instead of every few months or years. < again I'm told I should start indicating when using sarcasm, anyone with a brain can see it but it's more like a disclaimer in case some people try to spread lies again.

This being said, I'd like to point out that once again some bad actors want to give the impression that I'm the one who behaves badly in this thread when this is the sort of rude posts I get again and again. What's your problem exactly..?

Bonus (old but gold) : 



 Wow


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 20, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> again I'm told I should start indicating when using sarcasm, anyone with a brain can see it but it's more like a disclaimer in case some people try to spread lies again.



Wait did _you _of all people just really say this?


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 20, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Wait did _you _of all people just really say this?


I did; and you would be well advised to not derail the thread further with your pointless drama


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 20, 2022)

Just a PSA, the NTIA drives black Tahoes.  And does law enforcement.  Nice people, considering.


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 20, 2022)

I probably won’t steal the show with my boring data but I prefer to contribute with this rather than personal opinions and bickering. _”When the war is about awareness, fighting one’s own ignorance is the highest act of patriotism”._


1) A long interview with gen. David Petraeus, former head of the CIA, containing a rather comprehensive outline of the situation. 








						Russian forces 'clearly have very poor standards,' Gen. Petraeus says | CNN
					

Retired Gen. David Petraeus, who commanded US forces in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, says the Russians are facing a Ukraine military that is exceptionally determined, surprisingly capable and innovative, and one that is fighting on its home territory for its very survival, writes Peter Bergen.




					edition.cnn.com
				





2) A technical, in-depth view into the _modus operandi_ of Russian Battalion Tactical Groups, the mainstay of their invasion forces.



			https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/issues/2017/spring/2Fiore17.pdf
		

Tl;dr, such a group consists of a relatively small core of strong artillery force with addition of some tanks, typically flanked by (often low-quality) infantry forces as protection. Its main way of waging war seems to be concentrating overwhelming artillery fire on a chosen single target at a time. The huge flaw is that such a group is ”one-trick pony” and when faced with multiple threats at once it has trouble keeping up. Double that if the enemy is maneuvering a lot, which isn’t a BTG’s strong point either. The paper, based on previous period of elevated conflict in Ukraine in 2014 and 2015, mentions superior Russian capabilities in electronic warfare – curiously, this doesn’t appear to be in much use currently, quite contrary.


3) What follows now is a compilation based largely on Polish sources, particularly (but not only) a long interview with Krzysztof Wojczal, an analyst who already in 2019 was expecting Russia to do something rough right about now. There’s an interesting strategic insight to be found in this. The starting point is that the Russian economy is constantly in a poor shape, and about to get worse even without sanctions. One of their main sources of income is export of hydrocarbons. Their oil extraction is expected to become reduced by 50% by 2035 (reasons weren’t explained in detail but it’s imaginable that both the exploitable reserves are getting lower without more advanced tech, and the European withdrawal from fossil fuels is expected to decrease the demand). Even more importantly. the liquid natural gas sources in Europe, traditionally dependent on Russia, are being diversified: in late 2022 Germany is expected to complete a sea terminal for LNG (from Persian Gulf and USA) and Poland to connect to Norway via ”Baltic Pipe”. On top of that, the Russian demographic situation is is shambles, the population is expected to fall by 3 millions by 2030, and there was talk about increasing the retirement age for men to 65 – lower than their average life expectancy! Therefore 2022 seems like the last moment for Russia to act, while they still are able.

Ukraine with its huge population, natural resources and strong industrial base would have been a welcome addition to the reconstituted Russian ”empire”. I don’t know if more western sources paid any attention to this, but on 26th of February, the Russian government sources published a triumphant article, praising Putin’s great geostrategic victory. The article was quickly taken down in the face of the disagreeing facts, but nothing disappears on the interwebs, so the article can be still accessed, just run it through some auto-translation.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

It’s somewhat hard to read with their weird propaganda lingo, but it shows what they were expecting: to create shock by swift overtake of Ukraine and make the European countries feel helpless in the face of victorious Russia. This leverage of the Russian position was meant to convince the USA that there’s nothing left to be gained for them in Europe, so that they would focus more on China instead. And conceivably (this is not stated in the article directly but was separately said by the analyst mentioned), Russia, having free reign in pressuring Europe any way it pleases, could make it dependent on the fuel it supplies, ensuring its own budget incomes for decades to come. As a further step, it would amass military forces on its western border, either as a threat, or to be actually used if the USA withdrew from defending Europe as expected.

Luckily this whole evil plotting was nipped in the bud by Ukraine not being easily defeated. The overall effect is pretty opposite to what Russia (presumably) hoped for. NATO got unified, the US presence in Europe became more wanted by both parties, Europe started declaring significantly higher resources for defense, and the Russian fuels, still not 100% replaceable in practice, quickly started becoming unwanted. Not to mention the sanctions which, while they don’t and can’t exert their effect quickly, have a serious potential to mess the Russian economy real bad on the months to years scale.

The danger is obviously not over by any means, and I don’t even mean the nukes. Should the invasion on Ukraine end in some sort of indecisive stalemate, Russia will be left with an opportunity to try again in the future. In this light, the already mentioned European efforts towards increasing the defensive capabilities are a much needed safeguard in the case of such a scenario.


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 21, 2022)

...To round off what I said cause I noticed I didn't finish the thought: also in the case where Ukraine successfully defends itself and asserts its independence (I realize it won't be easy but I absolutely root for this, have no doubt), the American & European defense efforts are not wasted. It's hard to predict what will become of Russia after such defacement, but it can still be dangerous for many years to come. Even if their ability to launch a huge offensive becomes degraded, they may still try other things, out of sheer desperation. At a more extreme end, even an eventual breakup of the federation is not totally inconceivable, which would open another can of worms. The proverbial Ancient Chinese curse _"may you live in interesting times"_ is in full swing, it seems.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 21, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Enlightening to see the new york times publish garbage like this https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/opinion/china-russia-ukraine.html when we know from credible sources China is far from neutral in this story. https://www.ocregister.com/2022/03/...ussia-to-delay-invasion-until-after-olympics/ Interesting to watch communist propaganda in action, I just wish there would be a disclaimer precising that it is propaganda and the author is affiliated with the United Front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_(China)
> 
> _"Ideologically, China has common ground with both Ukraine and Russia. China deeply values the principle of state sovereignty and has long opposed outside interference in what it considers internal affairs such as Taiwan." _*That *is just sinister.... is he saying what I think he's saying? equating INVADING Ukraine with having the right to invade Taiwan..?


Well, in spite of some of the people piling on you a bit here...... I do think you make some interesting points at least as far as read-ability goes (on the topic), in regards to the larger issues about China.

I'm not so sure I'd go all out, and say they're "pro-Russia"..... but - they've also been rather silent it could be argued (I think) so far, as far as the conflict that has been going on. Personally - I do think, that if _"push comes to shove"_ - (and Russia eventually needs some kind of military help) - China may be one of the countries to be willing to step in and help them out probably...... as in my mind, they'd be the only real regional players (besides maybe, North Korea) - to even answer the phone when Russia calls them.

And in regards to the Times - granted, there are many people that certainly agree with you there, in that regard..... in that it's, shall we say.... just *a little* biased. And so, countering that with alternative sources of information is always a good way to go I think, when ever one's arguments are being criticized, because someone dared to question their journalistic credibility.

And so, quoting back up sources (like you're doing here) is always a good way to go.
-----------------------------------
(As a side note) Frankly, it could be argued they (The New York Times) are a bit biased, and they do have an agenda with the way they cover stories and stuff.... and so, just calling that out as one sees it - isn't necessarily something one needs to apologize for.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 21, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> I'm not so sure I'd go all out, and say they're "pro-Russia"..... but - they've also been rather silent it could be argued (I think) so far, as far as the conflict that has been going on. Personally - I do think, that if _"push comes to shove"_ - (and Russia eventually needs some kind of military help) - China may be one of the countries to be willing to step in and help them out probably...... as in my mind, they'd be the only real regional players (besides maybe, North Korea) - to even answer the phone when Russia calls them.



China and Russia are a connected issue. They are both under the rule of an authoritarian regime, trying to surpress democratic efforts. And they both see themselves in a cultural war with the west. But there's one major difference. China is far more dependant on the wester economy, so they would bit hit even harder by sanctions if they would openly side with russia. So they keep sitting in a somewhat ambiguous stance. The geo strategic goal shoul be to keep them appart, by showing Mr. Xi that siding with Putin means more trouble then gain. And this needs much diplomatic tact.


----------



## EnotikBrony (Mar 21, 2022)

Furry, are you for Ukraine or Russia? Personally, I am for Ukraine.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 21, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well, in spite of some of the people piling on you a bit here...... I do think you make some interesting points at least as far as read-ability goes (on the topic), in regards to the larger issues about China.
> 
> I'm not so sure I'd go all out, and say they're "pro-Russia"..... but - they've also been rather silent it could be argued (I think) so far, as far as the conflict that has been going on. Personally - I do think, that if _"push comes to shove"_ - (and Russia eventually needs some kind of military help) - China may be one of the countries to be willing to step in and help them out probably...... as in my mind, they'd be the only real regional players (besides maybe, North Korea) - to even answer the phone when Russia calls them.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I appreciate it!


----------



## Rassah (Mar 21, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> Paying a bit more for Gas and Gasoline is a small price when it saves our freedom and human lives in the long run.


I'm pretty sure paying more for gas has nothing to do with sanctions. At least not in US. Russia is a small fraction of oil we used to import, and US usually exports more than it imports. I think it has more to do with inflation and shutting down drilling and pipelines.



Frank Gulotta said:


> True, all I'm saying is that it's proving insufficient


I think the sanctions may have prevented a bigger war in that other countries *coughchinacough* saw the world's reaction and decided against their own potential invasion ideas *coughtaiwancough*


Pomorek said:


> ...To round off what I said cause I noticed I didn't finish the thought: also in the case where Ukraine successfully defends itself and asserts its independence (I realize it won't be easy but I absolutely root for this, have no doubt), the American & European defense efforts are not wasted. It's hard to predict what will become of Russia after such defacement, but it can still be dangerous for many years to come. Even if their ability to launch a huge offensive becomes degraded, they may still try other things, out of sheer desperation. At a more extreme end, even an eventual breakup of the federation is not totally inconceivable, which would open another can of worms. The proverbial Ancient Chinese curse _"may you live in interesting times"_ is in full swing, it seems.


One possible solution for Russia is for the top brass to blame everything on Putin, take him out of power, put him through a quick show trial, and execute him. That way all the blame is on the guy who's already dead and no one will investigate anything further, while Russia can pretend like nothing happened and it wasn't anyone fault there. Certainly a popular tactic during soviet times.



Connor J. Coyote said:


> Personally - I do think, that if _"push comes to shove"_ - (and Russia eventually needs some kind of military help) - China may be one of the countries to be willing to step in and help them out probably......


I think China may be more interested in taking advantage of the situation of a heavily disarmed and discredited Russia to try to take some of its own Siberian lands back instead. They can even use the same excuse Russia used, that there are ethnically Chinese people living there.


----------



## rekcerW (Mar 21, 2022)

My biggest takeaway from all of this deplorable shit, is that I hope it ends peacefully as fast as possible so nobody else can lose their life over something so fucking pointless and misconstrued to the Russians fighting this needless war...

I also hope that Ukrainian and Russian civilians who want nothing to do with this shit alike are warranted a speedy recovery from this shit when it finally ends. 

Putin is a fucking nut-job and is in for some serious retribution before all of this is over, just watch.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 22, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> I'm not so sure I'd go all out, and say they're "pro-Russia"..... but - they've also been rather silent it could be argued (I think) so far, as far as the conflict that has been going on. Personally - I do think, that if _"push comes to shove"_ - (and Russia eventually needs some kind of military help) - China may be one of the countries to be willing to step in and help them out probably...... as in my mind, they'd be the only real regional players (besides maybe, North Korea) - to even answer the phone when Russia calls them.


Well, maybe my posting (above) was misunderstood. I *do think* there's a China / Russia connection..... (that's what I'm trying to say)...... and if I can, I'll try to clarify: in that, if Russia needs some help eventually in Ukraine (if things there start to turn against them) - then.... it *may be* possible that China would be one of the countries (and possibly North Korea) to do that for them.

And..... as I said above, if that were to escalate due to Russia being successful in Ukraine, then, a full scale war is a real possibility:


Connor J. Coyote said:


> If I lived in any of the former (15) Soviet countries the border Russia, I'd be watching this conflict with Ukraine very nervously right now..... could there be other nations, (that are former Soviet states) "on the list next" after Ukraine? And if so - will the EU and the US directly intervene at that point militarily to help those countries out, and most interestingly..... will China possibly back Russia at some point?


Where (possibly) Russia, China, and North Korea would form another axis in another World War. We can only speculate.... but in my mind.... I don't discount this as a real possibility, if things get worse.

Thus...... (in my mind) as bad as things are in Ukraine right now, things could get much worse.... and other countries, (especially the E.U. and the U.S.) should keep a very watchful eye over this conflict..... to avoid it becoming possibly another Iraq (or another World War) where it can affect many more of us, than just the local populace.
------------------------
So hopefully that clarifies. 
Bottom line - no one should take this conflict lightly I think.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 22, 2022)

Assume Paypal is hacked.


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 22, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Assume Paypal is hacked.


Why?


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 22, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Assume Paypal is hacked.


What's up with paypal?


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 22, 2022)

Rassah said:


> I'm pretty sure paying more for gas has nothing to do with sanctions. At least not in US. Russia is a small fraction of oil we used to import, and US usually exports more than it imports. I think it has more to do with inflation and shutting down drilling and pipelines.


There are some pandemic-related supply chain shortages, the global price of gas is affected by the sanctions.



Rassah said:


> I think China may be more interested in taking advantage of the situation of a heavily disarmed and discredited Russia to try to take some of its own Siberian lands back instead. They can even use the same excuse Russia used, that there are ethnically Chinese people living there.


They're already buying up thawing farmland in Siberia, though they have halted purchases currently.

They'll probably resume once the sanctions have driven the Russian economy into ground and the land prices lower.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 22, 2022)

Sorry, wrong message board.  I was trying to convince my wife to change her passwords while simultaneously reading this thread.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 22, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Sorry, wrong message board.  I was trying to convince my wife to change her passwords while simultaneously reading this thread.


I was gonna say.

I'd think Russian hackers would find it easier to cast out a few lines and hope the phish bite than simply try to hack a highly-trafficked site.  Too much risk of drawing attention and someone trying to actively dupe them with a stronger malware package.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 22, 2022)

I'm not sure how relevant this image is here, or if it is even purposeful, however, I found it interesting, nonetheless. Plus, I really don't have much to contribute to this thread, not only because I'm fighting my own demons, but everything sort of speaks for itself, and I'm so fucking lost for words with everything that's happening internationally, all the way down to the individual soul. It just seems like there's multiple warfare going on, not just around the world, but to varying degrees outside and at home. The last several years has been nothing but chaos overload, externally and internally. All I see now is the micromanagement of disorderliness, and less time offered for a single moment of contentment in the only life on planet Earth guaranteed to every sentient creature.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 23, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> I'm not sure how relevant this image is here, or if it is even purposeful, however, I found it interesting, nonetheless. Plus, I really don't have much to contribute to this thread, not only because I'm fighting my own demons, but everything sort of speaks for itself, and I'm so fucking lost for words with everything that's happening internationally, all the way down to the individual soul. It just seems like there's multiple warfare going on, not just around the world, but to varying degrees outside and at home. The last several years has been nothing but chaos overload, externally and internally. All I see now is the micromanagement of disorderliness, and less time offered for a single moment of contentment in the only life on planet Earth guaranteed to every sentient creature.


War never changes: it's always for resources, legacy/personal enrichment, or, operation "We Are Right".

I have to agree, the last several years having been moving from one crises to the next as people have just bungled even mundane tasks at higher levels.  Zelensky is more respected in the US than our own leaders in a lot of ways.  Nutjobs have just threatened, cajoled, or just totally run over segments of the population/environment/world and the level of f**ks given is quite possibly below zero by normal everyday people.  Nuclear annihilation is met with almost indifference at this point, like, "Seriously, this is all that's left to really ratchet up tensions?  Seriously?!  Ok, then, well good luck with that."

In the spirit of now celebrating the possible end of the human race or the first age of mankind, I offer this:  the Russian government holding a donation drive for their military.  To the people of Russia, this is Putin's army today:








						Russian officials solicit donations for soldiers fighting in Ukraine
					

Local officials in Russia's Belgorod region bordering Ukraine have set up collection points where citizens can drop off donations of socks, medicine and tinned food for Russian troops fighting in Ukraine, according to messages from the officials seen by Reuters.  Officials told local residents...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 23, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I was gonna say.
> 
> I'd think Russian hackers would find it easier to cast out a few lines and hope the phish bite than simply try to hack a highly-trafficked site.  Too much risk of drawing attention and someone trying to actively dupe them with a stronger malware package.


Eh.... if the Russians were going to hack Paypal, honestly - they'd have probably done it by now, long ago. The fact that it *looks like* they haven't tells me there's not much to worry about..... (at least yet).
--------------------------------------------
In any case, security services like Clouflare and Akamai are still providing services to Russia, and its citizens and businesses...... in spite of the requests (and at times, demands) - from some Ukrainins and activists to pull their services out.... (like many financial services have done).

Cloudflare defended the move in somewhat unapologetic tones..... and Akamai did similar.

But these companies also said they've made their products and cybersecurity teams available to Ukrainian government agencies as well. Honestly, I think that's a wise move on their parts.... in spite of some of the criticisms they've been getting.
-------------------
The blog Cloudflare wrote, is here: https://blog.cloudflare.com/steps-taken-around-cloudflares-services-in-ukraine-belarus-and-russia/


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 23, 2022)

Putin ally warns of nuclear dystopia due to United States
					

One of President Vladimir Putin's closest allies warned the United States on Wednesday that the world could spiral towards a nuclear dystopia if Washington pressed on with what the Kremlin casts as a long-term plot to destroy Russia.  Dmitry Medvedev, who was president from 2008 to 2012 and is...




					www.yahoo.com
				




I really want to take a page from Camilla on this and get rid of tired, stupid old men.  This is Baghdad Ali levels of bat**** crazy and just reminds me of an angry kid with no self control.  Definitively Putin il Jun now.


----------



## EnotikBrony (Mar 23, 2022)

Do you know? Zelensky is a good president, he really leads the country to success. That's right, and Ukraine will be in Europe.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 23, 2022)

Russian troops with a bloody _Maxim gun _spotted in Kherson


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 23, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Russian troops with a bloody _Maxim gun _spotted in Kherson


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 24, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> In the spirit of now celebrating the possible end of the human race or the first age of mankind, I offer this: the Russian government holding a donation drive for their military. To the people of Russia, this is Putin's army today:



Corruption is the only reliable element of every authoritarian regime. On every investment you can be sure that 70% of the expenses will end on someones swiss bank account instead of it's dedicated purpose. This also seemed to be true for the russian army. Putin threw a hell of a military budget at then, and it went right down the drain. The beauty of poetic irony.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 24, 2022)

Biden says Russia should be booted from G-20; Russia's economy has shrunk in half since invading Ukraine: March 24 recap
					

President Joe Biden said Russia should be kicked out of the Group of 20 nations in retaliation for its invasion of Ukraine. Thursday's recap.




					www.yahoo.com
				




Anti-ship stockpiles.  Ok, this has got to be embarassing to Russia and China.
"You want missiles?  Yeah, you can have those in the closet.  Guns are in the attic, and meh, we forgot whatever these are, but yeah, have them anyway.  No worries, we got tons more in the garage and storage units down the street..."


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 24, 2022)

There have been unconfirmed reports that a Russian warship, the Orsk, has been destroyed by Ukrainian forces.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 24, 2022)

Is anyone here from Russia?


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 24, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Is anyone here from Russia?


I won't single anyone out, but there are many Russian users floating around here and even more on the main site.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 24, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> I won't single anyone out, but there are many Russian users floating around here and even more on the main site.


'Cause I am Russian


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 24, 2022)

Russians (in Russia) have to be very careful what they say online, the stakes are quite high for them now.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 25, 2022)




----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 25, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Russians (in Russia) have to be very careful what they say online, the stakes are quite high for them now.


Why should I be afraid of my opinion - it is something that disturbs me for a while now


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 25, 2022)

Speaking of Russia, I saw a curious symbolic initiative I wanted to show to you: 








						Flag of the Wonderful Russia of the Future — whitebluewhite.info
					






					whitebluewhite.info


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 25, 2022)

Pomorek said:


> Speaking of Russia, I saw a curious symbolic initiative I wanted to show to you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great idea, I've already used WBW hearts at my Twitter


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 25, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> Corruption is the only reliable element of every authoritarian regime.


And a few knee breakers in the basement..... nothing speaks louder in regards to "influence" than a few bruisers waiting for the next recruit in the dungeons and jail cells.


dragon-in-sight said:


> On every investment you can be sure that 70% of the expenses will end on someones swiss bank account instead of it's dedicated purpose.


The amount of off shore accounts and of personal wealth, the government heads and oligarchs have, must be astounding.


----------



## Pomorek (Mar 25, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506306740421341193Aside from the military value of investigating such a system, I find it insanely amusing how, after the container ended up on the ground, tipped over (a "little accident" when unloading or did it just randomly fell off a truck?), someone apparently thought it's enough to put a few pine branches on top and nobody will find it. Pure genius.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 25, 2022)

Pomorek said:


> Speaking of Russia, I saw a curious symbolic initiative I wanted to show to you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's really a wonderful idea. Russia as a country has a rich and diverse cultural heritage and many good people which deserve better then beeing made a banana republic by putin and his thugs. And I offer my best whishes and deep respect to all the russian people standing up for a better tomorrow.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 25, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> That's really a wonderful idea. Russia as a country has a rich and diverse cultural heritage and many good people which deserve better then beeing made a banana republic by putin and his thugs. And I offer my best whishes and deep respect to all the russian people standing up for a better tomorrow.


More time pass - less I believe. Sometimes I don't even want to live on one planet with people like them


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 25, 2022)

I'm also part Ukrainian myself (my grandma on father's side is Ukrainian) so it really sucks to watch


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 25, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> More time pass - less I believe. Sometimes I don't even want to live on one planet with people like them



I feel with you. But don't give up hope. My Country once was responsible for two world wars and some of the most atrocious deeds in the history of mankind. My ancestors fell for the same kind of demagogues and brainwashing. But still there was a way out. One day Putin and his kind will be gone aswell. But Russia still will be there, able to decide who they like to be in the days to come.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

Welp, this happened.








						Russian soldiers ran over their commander, apparently blaming him for heavy losses in Ukraine, Western official says
					

The story of a Russian officer attacked by his own troops in revenge for heavy losses had already been circulating, and was confirmed on Friday.




					www.yahoo.com
				




This period of war has gone off the rails.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Is anyone here from Russia?


I'm not but I know a few Russian furs. They're struggling and hating this war too. Some of us are still trying to figure out how to help them get paid with crypto for their commissions.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 26, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


>


It's turning into something that should really be monitored, I see a lot of bigotry developing, from the worrying hatred (like Instatrash and Failbook permitting hate speech against the Russian military, something I could easily see spill and get out of hands https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...w-calls-violence-against-russians-2022-03-10/) to the very petty and small details. Like to the level of a bakery in the town where I work, they sell a piece of pastry that's apparently from Russia that's pretty good and they used to call it a "Russian". They've changed the name! some small bakery wants to erase Russian culture from pastries!

It's not a new thing either, we've seen pretty grim throwbacks to 1930s rhetoric from high places based on since discredited conspiracy theories in the past https://observer.com/2017/05/james-clapper-russia-xenophobia/ which is just shameful and disgusting.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> 'Cause I am Russian


Y'know, while we're here....

Do you or your parents have any insights as to what exactly went wrong in that period from Gorbachev's rule up until Putin got power?  Especially things that require inside Russian context for us Westerners to comprehend?

If nothing else, for the sake of rebuilding when this finally ends - so you're not condemned to repeating this with another autocrat later.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Y'know, while we're here....
> 
> Do you or your parents have any insights as to what exactly went wrong in that period from Gorbachev's rule up until Putin got power?  Especially things that require inside Russian context for us Westerners to comprehend?
> 
> If nothing else, for the sake of rebuilding when this finally ends - so you're not condemned to repeating this with another autocrat later.


I was born after Putin's became president, I didn't know Gorbachev personally but my relatives have told me he was a bad person. He destroyed our economy and Putin is his receiver, who is continuing to rob and destroy Russia


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Y'know, while we're here....
> 
> Do you or your parents have any insights as to what exactly went wrong in that period from Gorbachev's rule up until Putin got power?  Especially things that require inside Russian context for us Westerners to comprehend?
> 
> If nothing else, for the sake of rebuilding when this finally ends - so you're not condemned to repeating this with another autocrat later.


The simple logical answer would be that you can't get out of a corrupt political ideology like a switch. And by the way Ukraine is also rife with corruption. Most if not all former soviet republics are highly corrupt, apparently excluding East Germany and Estonia. https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> I was born after Putin's became president, I didn't know Gorbachev personally but my relatives have told me he was a bad person. He destroyed our economy and Putin is his receiver, who is continuing to rob and destroy Russia


I actually decided to ask my parents about Gorbachev in light of your answer (I was six when Gorbachev had to resign for the final time, so little chance of me comprehending that as it was happening).  There was no glowing review of the guy and most people don't even consider that stuff where I am (or at least it's not at the forefront of their discussions).

Showing my own cluelessness for a second, I think this is the first time I've outright witnessed someone put Gorbachev and Putin on the same page like that.  I'll also admit I can comprehend where they're coming from on that given just how... _badly_ things went.

I'll leave it at that for now.



Frank Gulotta said:


> The simple logical answer would be that you can't get out of a corrupt political ideology like a switch.


I'm actually aware of that possibility, Frank.  Sometimes it's worth taking a chance asking someone closer to the situation.

Logical answer only tells so much.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I actually decided to ask my parents about Gorbachev in light of your answer (I was six when Gorbachev had to resign for the final time, so little chance of me comprehending that as it was happening).  There was no glowing review of the guy and most people don't even consider that stuff where I am (or at least it's not at the forefront of their discussions).
> 
> Showing my own cluelessness for a second, I think this is the first time I've outright witnessed someone put Gorbachev and Putin on the same page like that.  I'll also admit I can comprehend where they're coming from on that given just how... _badly_ things went.
> 
> ...


You don't mind me asking what country are you from? You said you are from the "West world" but it seems you family knows and has their strong opinion about Gorbachev


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> You don't mind me asking what country are you from? You said you are from the "West world" but it seems you family knows and has their strong opinion about Gorbachev


United States, eastern side.

My family knows a bit less than my words might have suggested, however my parents did get to witness a lot of the Cold War and they've seen just how clueless people can get about this stuff.

Contrast this with what I learned at school, which only implied that Gorbachev tried to conduct reforms... which, when it's put that way, leaves out the disastrous results (and the full implications of the Soviet Union's fall) and makes Gorbachev look better than he was.  (The '90's and early 2000s were NOT a well-informed time in the US, and my own school district is about average all things considered.)

The strong stance comes more from investigation than personal experience, honestly.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 26, 2022)

Today there was a report about the Duma Deputy Sergei Sawostjanow, demanding for more "Special military operations" to also denazify the Baltic States, Kazakhstan and Poland:

https://defenceaviationpost.com/six...e-denazified-according-to-a-russian-official/

So basicly the new Kremlin Military strategy would be like this, I guess.


----------



## Lenago (Mar 26, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> Today there was a report about the Duma Deputy Sergei Sawostjanow, demanding for more "Special military operations" to also denazify the Baltic States, Kazakhstan and Poland:
> 
> https://defenceaviationpost.com/six...e-denazified-according-to-a-russian-official/
> 
> So basicly the new Kremlin Military strategy would be like this, I guess.


How derange are they over there? More killing and madness. Not to mention the Russian army is having a hard time taking over Ukraine right? Heavy losses, and they want to attack 3 more contries?


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Nah, they always see only Nazis everywhere. Stupid


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

I lived in Fayetteville, NC for a while.  There was a burger joint called Hussein's on the way to a small town of Lillington.  When we invaded Iaq the secoond time, their business failled because of their name.  I think it's Hwy 55 burgers now.  So with "Freedom Fries" up there, i can see the ridiculousness of harassing over a Russian.


Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I actually decided to ask my parents about Gorbachev in light of your answer (I was six when Gorbachev had to resign for the final time, so little chance of me comprehending that as it was happening).  There was no glowing review of the guy and most people don't even consider that stuff where I am (or at least it's not at the forefront of their discussions).
> 
> Showing my own cluelessness for a second, I think this is the first time I've outright witnessed someone put Gorbachev and Putin on the same page like that.  I'll also admit I can comprehend where they're coming from on that given just how... _badly_ things went.





Firuthi Dragovic said:


> United States, eastern side.
> 
> My family knows a bit less than my words might have suggested, however my parents did get to witness a lot of the Cold War and they've seen just how clueless people can get about this stuff.
> 
> Contrast this with what I learned at school, which only implied that Gorbachev tried to conduct reforms... which, when it's put that way, leaves out the disastrous results (and the full implications of the Soviet Union's fall) and makes Gorbachev look better than he was.  (The '90's and early 2000s were NOT a well-informed time in the US, and my own school district is about average all things considered.)


We were well informed.  I remember watching the Berlin Wall fall on TV and asking what it meant.  I was 11-12.  Russia controlled media hard.  I had a Lithuanian teacher who, despite every reason not to, liked my curiousity and forthright nature.  Gorbachev was an evil man with the same cruelties and hatreds as Putin.  There was just nothing he could do: diplomacy, finacially, militarily, information: all the core powers of government had failed due to adventures in Afghanistan.  US technology smoked the USSR with the help of an insurgency.  Problem: the US forgot to thank Afghanistan with schools, infrastructure, and education. (Book: Charlie Wilson's War, if interested)

Boris Yeltsin came to the stage, but he was just another USSR holdover.  He actually gave democracy, more or less, to Russia.  However, he had three (?) problems that were really apparent. (1) He failed to dissolve and reform the KGB/rebranded FSB.  (2) he promised democracy and failed to champion it within Russia by following a halfhearted constitution and having a war with Chechnya (3) named Putin as a successor. (Book: The Less You Know, The Better You Sleep.  Satter, I think.  Sorry, Mario, the book is in another house)

Once Putin started seizing power, democratic governments that were helping Russia saw the writing on the wall and realized his intent was always self-gratification.  Boris Yeltsin would eventually call Putin the worst decision he ever made. (Book: The Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin)


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I lived in Fayetteville, NC for a while.  There was a burger joint called Hussein's on the way to a small town of Lillington.  When we invaded Iaq the secoond time, their business failled because of their name.  I think it's Hwy 55 burgers now.  So with "Freedom Fries" up there, i can see the ridiculousness of harassing over a Russian.
> 
> 
> We were well informed.  I remember watching the Berlin Wall fall on TV and asking what it meant.  I was 11-12.  Russia controlled media hard.  I had a Lithuanian teacher who, despite every reason not to, liked my curiousity and forthright nature.  Gorbachev was an evil man with the same cruelties and hatreds as Putin.  There was just nothing he could do: diplomacy, finacially, militarily, information: all the core powers of government had failed due to adventures in Afghanistan.  US technology smoked the USSR with the help of an insurgency.  Problem: the US forgot to thank Afghanistan with schools, infrastructure, and education. (Book: Charlie Wilson's War, if interested)
> ...


Guess, Russia's never had future and will never have. Living in a hopeless country, having life with no perspectives or meaning among brainwashed people who think that USA and EU are their main enemies.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Y'know, while we're here....
> 
> Do you or your parents have any insights as to what exactly went wrong in that period from Gorbachev's rule up until Putin got power?  Especially things that require inside Russian context for us Westerners to comprehend?
> 
> If nothing else, for the sake of rebuilding when this finally ends - so you're not condemned to repeating this with another autocrat later.


Besides those in power, you also have to remember that the people themselves have been subjected to brutal daily oppression for generations. Imagine living every day where you have to be mindful of what you do and what you say, otherwise you can get yourself, your family, or your parents in trouble. (Kinda like being of any political thought other than the approved one in furry fandom, where saying something wrong gets you attacked or canceled in the last few years -.-) After a long while of this, people become just resigned to whatever is happening and just go with it, not questioning authority or going along with it. Plus the decades of brainwashing about how the government is great and will take care of all your problems means people just trust it to do whatever needs to be done. It's not even support, it's just leaving government things to government and thinking it will do whatever is needed, whatever that may be. So when USSR fell and industries were "privatized" by being given to political oligarchs, people just thought "well, that's the way it needs to be done." And when Putin became dictator, no one questioned or objected either. People were beaten down for decades, so how could they? It will a long time for the old guard to die off, and the younger generation with aspirations for freedom to take over. Or maybe shorter time if the current power financially collapses from this war, though USSR collapsed and they still held onto power...



AlmaRoy said:


> Nah, they always see only Nazis everywhere. Stupid



Oh the irony of this. Russia and the furry fandom have had this in common for years now. I wonder if furries who have been supporting this idiocy will finally open their eyes and see how stupid it looks to those on the outside, now that a dictator they aren't able to support its doing it too.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

People look to the US as a great power, but it's truly an experiment and unprecedented.  We are in actuality closer to a republic that errs on the side of anarchy and somehow, despite all evidence to the contrary, keep on going.  We shifted towards oligarchy in the last 20 years,but will likely move back towards dissatisfied republic again.  Hell, we had a civil war andvsomehow came out stronger and with A1 steak sauce, machine guns, submarines, and battleships.  Priorities, right?

Russia had its capital in Kiev then Moscow.  Russians deal with the same problems, but go for more regional answers.  When Russians are in strife, we get ballets, sonnets, literature, music, and math.  Imagine for one minute, just one minute, if Russia and the US really and truly got along -the world would go to hell in a minute because we'd make it a frat house.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> We were well informed. I remember watching the Berlin Wall fall on TV and asking what it meant. I was 11-12. Russia controlled media hard. I had a Lithuanian teacher who, despite every reason not to, liked my curiousity and forthright nature. Gorbachev was an evil man with the same cruelties and hatreds as Putin. There was just nothing he could do: diplomacy, finacially, militarily, information: all the core powers of government had failed due to adventures in Afghanistan. US technology smoked the USSR with the help of an insurgency. Problem: the US forgot to thank Afghanistan with schools, infrastructure, and education. (Book: Charlie Wilson's War, if interested)


I'd have been four when that wall fell, and family had higher priorities with my condition at the time (and I wasn't exactly verbal back then).  I don't think I had any international teachers in my school district, but I had other problems so there's a chance of me simply not knowing.

I called it average because I could not find proof of it being one of the 50 worst in the state, but I had a feeling my district was backwater.  (Someone like me wound up an honor student, that should say a lot.)

But that's enough about me in this thread.  Thanks for filling in about Yeltsin - I'd heard the name before and I wagered on the lead-up to Putin involving his rule somehow but again, where I am, few people talk about that stuff when I'm around to catch it.



Rassah said:


> Besides those in power, you also have to remember that the people themselves have been subjected to brutal daily oppression for generations. Imagine living every day where you have to be mindful of what you do and what you say, otherwise you can get yourself, your family, or your parents in trouble. (Kinda like being of any political thought other than the approved one in furry fandom, where saying something wrong gets you attacked or canceled in the last few years -.-) After a long while of this, people become just resigned to whatever is happening and just go with it, not questioning authority or going along with it. Plus the decades of brainwashing about how the government is great and will take care of all your problems means people just trust it to do whatever needs to be done. It's not even support, it's just leaving government things to government and thinking it will do whatever is needed, whatever that may be. So when USSR fell and industries were "privatized" by being given to political oligarchs, people just thought "well, that's the way it needs to be done." And when Putin became dictator, no one questioned or objected either. People were beaten down for decades, so how could they? It will a long time for the old guard to die off, and the younger generation with aspirations for freedom to take over. Or maybe shorter time if the current power financially collapses from this war, though USSR collapsed and they still held onto power...


Yeah, I've heard that quite a bit about the USSR and Russia.  Even if it had occurred to me at the time I asked... I probably would not have mentioned the oppression in my question because I'd think it was a trigger (yes, in the full sense of the word) for my target.

Trying to get information about the world around you is a delicate art sometimes.  I can't exactly guess how people will react to certain questions and any more than the minimum request in a question has gotten me in trouble in the past.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 26, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> They've changed the name! some small bakery wants to erase Russian culture from pastries!


Liberty Cabbage 2: Electric Boogaloo


----------



## Rassah (Mar 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Russia had its capital in Kiev then Moscow.


Russia never had its capital in Kiev. It was formed in Moscow and had its capital in Moscow, then St. Petersburg, then back to Moscow since St. Petersburg was too close to the border. Russia was never Ukraine and Ukraine was never part of Russia except as temporarily occupied territories. Some time around 1600's or 1700's Russia made up fake history to cover up that they were part of the Mongolian Golden Horde by changing its name from Moskovitche to Russia to make it sound like Kievan Rus, and claimed that it originated from Rus, just it was always a separate country. And that's why the conflict: Russians think Ukraine is part of Russia and just want to take it back and make it part of Russia "again," and Ukrainians think Russia is a completely separate country that was formed centuries after Ukraine, and that Russia was just an enemy that kept invading and trying to take them over.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Rassah said:


> Russia never had its capital in Kiev. It was formed in Moscow and had its capital in Moscow, then St. Petersburg, then back to Moscow since St. Petersburg was too close to the border. Russia was never Ukraine and Ukraine was never part of Russia except as temporarily occupied territories. Some time around 1600's or 1700's Russia made up fake history to cover up that they were part of the Mongolian Golden Horde by changing its name from Moskovitche to Russia to make it sound like Kievan Rus, and claimed that it originated from Rus, just it was always a separate country. And that's why the conflict: Russians think Ukraine is part of Russia and just want to take it back and make it part of Russia "again," and Ukrainians think Russia is a completely separate country that was formed centuries after Ukraine, and that Russia was just an enemy that kept invading and trying to take them over.


Well, in our history we have info about the Golden Horde and different opinions about it (were they invaders or allies - different historians have different opinions)


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

*Росси́йское ца́рство or* *Моско́вское ца́рство *(Russian (or rossian it's more like it) or Moscow tsarstvo (kingdom) was created in 1547 by Ivan the forth and rebranded to Empire in 1721 by Petr the first. Before it there were independent city-countries (*Княжества) *Moscow even attacked Tver (if Tver would have won - it could become a capital of future "kingdom" instead of Moscow)


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

In Russian language Rus is pronounced like Rus' and Russia - Rosiya. Moskow - Moskva


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

And Ukrainian weren't called Russian. Ukrainians and Russians are two different peoples included in the group "Eastern Slavs" together with Belarusians and Rusins


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

I was taking it back to Oleg and Novgorod.


AlmaRoy said:


> And Ukrainian weren't called Russian. Ukrainians and Russians are two different peoples included in the group "Eastern Slavs" together with Belarusians and Rusins


Good point, i concede my wrongness.  


Rassah said:


> Russia never had its capital in Kiev. It was formed in Moscow and had its capital in Moscow, then St. Petersburg, then back to Moscow since St. Petersburg was too close to the border. Russia was never Ukraine and Ukraine was never part of Russia except as temporarily occupied territories. Some time around 1600's or 1700's Russia made up fake history to cover up that they were part of the Mongolian Golden Horde by changing its name from Moskovitche to Russia to make it sound like Kievan Rus, and claimed that it originated from Rus, just it was always a separate country. And that's why the conflict: Russians think Ukraine is part of Russia and just want to take it back and make it part of Russia "again," and Ukrainians think Russia is a completely separate country that was formed centuries after Ukraine, and that Russia was just an enemy that kept invading and trying to take them over.


I will now commit seppuku and pour lighter fluid on my skin for public condemnation once again...


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

We had studied for a few months only relationships between Russian principalities and the Golden Horde


----------



## Rassah (Mar 26, 2022)

In Ukraine our history is taught as Kievan Rus was formed around Kiev, then centuries later one of the ruling family members broke off and went to start his own country around Moscow, and promptly started attacking Kievan Rus, then the Golden Horde invaded with the ultimatum of join or die, and Moscow joined while Kievan Rus refused, so Rus was destroyed while Moscow remained under the control of the Khans. Then for centuries more Kievan Rus existed as Ukraine, fighting off invasions from Poland, Russia, and Tatars from three sides, then Golden Horde retreated (like all major empires having fallen to inflation -.-), and Moscow renamed itself to Rus and wrote up new history claiming that it originated from Rus and thus had European roots. Ukraine in the mean time still had cossacks who kept defending it as an independent country of sorts, until Russia gave them a deal they took, broke the deal, and eventually took over the country, with Ukraine being under USSR for decades until it broke off and became its own again 30 years ago. Though it's been a while since my history classes so I may have forgotten some things.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

GPS jamming around Kaliningrad
					

How flights between Europe and Eastern Asia got disrupted Flying to Kaliningrad during the Russian flight ban GPS jamming around Kaliningrad Early in March, a lot of aircraft in the Baltic countries and Finland have been reporting GPS jamming issues. Aircraft use the global positioning system...




					observablehq.com
				




Crap.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Rassah said:


> In Ukraine our history is taught as Kievan Rus was formed around Kiev, then centuries later one of the ruling family members broke off and went to start his own country around Moscow, and promptly started attacking Kievan Rus, then the Golden Horde invaded with the ultimatum of join or die, and Moscow joined while Kievan Rus refused, so Rus was destroyed while Moscow remained under the control of the Khans. Then for centuries more Kievan Rus existed as Ukraine, fighting off invasions from Poland, Russia, and Tatars from three sides, then Golden Horde retreated (like all major empires having fallen to inflation -.-), and Moscow renamed itself to Rus and wrote up new history claiming that it originated from Rus and thus had European roots. Ukraine in the mean time still had cossacks who kept defending it as an independent country of sorts, until Russia gave them a deal they took, broke the deal, and eventually took over the country, with Ukraine being under USSR for decades until it broke off and became its own again 30 years ago. Though it's been a while since my history classes so I may have forgotten some things.


And what about other Russian cities? Like I said Moscow had attacked Tver because Tver was trying to mute against the Horde (and Tver was the main Moscow's political opponent)


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

And Kozelsk was almost destroyed by the Horde for trying to defend itself


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Actually, the Horde's invasion was impressive. Priests were truing to make Russian Princes unite because they saw Mongols as "God's punishment for quarrels" Now we even have proverb* "как Мамай прошел" which means a "complete mess"*


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

And Velikiy (the Great) Novgorod. It was founded in 859 while Moscow only in 1147


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

Just a side note, but while Ukraine has had problems with low-level corruption, they are a functioning democracy with a duly elected president which was working with the United States to address corruption, most publicly with Marie Yovanovitch. Russia has far more political corruption and is most definitely authoritarian, as @AlmaRoy would probably agree. 

There is a marked difference between the two and minor corruption in Ukraine doesn't justify a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes against its people.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Just a side note, but while Ukraine has had problems with low-level corruption, they are a functioning democracy with a duly elected president which was working with the United States to address corruption, most publicly with Marie Yovanovitch. Russia has far more political corruption and is most definitely authoritarian, as @AlmaRoy would probably agree.
> 
> There is a marked difference between the two and minor corruption in Ukraine doesn't justify a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes against its people.


I don't know Ukraine's level of corruption(I never lived in there) but in Russia it's certainly high (that I can tell) You said that USA is helping them fighting it, well, it won't work in Russia since most of it's people see US as a main threat


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Liberty Cabbage 2: Electric Boogaloo


Yeah changing the names of food because you don't like how something is going is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Delicious pastries is the one Russian invasion I'm okay with.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Just a side note, but while Ukraine has had problems with low-level corruption, they are a functioning democracy with a duly elected president which was working with the United States to address corruption, most publicly with Marie Yovanovitch. Russia has far more political corruption and is most definitely authoritarian, as @AlmaRoy would probably agree.
> 
> There is a marked difference between the two and minor corruption in Ukraine doesn't justify a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes against its people.


Given what I think you're responding to here, how about the rest of the former Soviet republics?

And I must take it a little further than you did - corruption alone is a difficult sell for an invasion as is.  Too easy to accuse, and I'd swear claiming Ukraine is corrupt is an implicit part of Russia's own existing accusations in this situation.  (I haven't read enough of the speeches to know where any explicit mentions were made.)

Last sidetrack from me, I promise.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Given what I think you're responding to here, how about the rest of the former Soviet republics?
> 
> And I must take it a little further than you did - corruption alone is a difficult sell for an invasion as is.  Too easy to accuse, and I'd swear claiming Ukraine is corrupt is an implicit part of Russia's own existing accusations in this situation.  (*I haven't read enough of the speeches to know where any explicit mentions were made.*)
> 
> Last sidetrack from me, I promise.


Here is a BBC article which addresses some of the claims Vladimir Putin has made to justify his invasion of Ukraine, including his commentary on corruption. 








						Ukraine crisis: Vladimir Putin address fact-checked
					

BBC News looks into several claims the Russian president made about Ukraine.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

I personally don't have anything against US and EU (other countries too) since I've met nice people from there so it's impossible for me to hate them. Even some of my relatives think it's USA to blame for invasion (it's like: "US is becoming to close to Ukraine - US is becoming too close to our borders - US - is our mortal enemy - that means Ukraine is our enemy too - Attack!!!")


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Did Biden say something good to adequate Russians? It doesn't change much but it's still nice knowing that we are no alone


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Given what I think you're responding to here, how about the rest of the former Soviet republics?
> 
> And I must take it a little further than you did - corruption alone is a difficult sell for an invasion as is.  Too easy to accuse, and I'd swear claiming Ukraine is corrupt is an implicit part of Russia's own existing accusations in this situation.  (I haven't read enough of the speeches to know where any explicit mentions were made.)
> 
> Last sidetrack from me, I promise.


Never be ashamed of asking for more information in good faith, especially since the history here can be confusing and complex.

Former Soviet republics is board term encompassing a large number, about 15, of political systems dealing with varying levels and types of corruption. The countries now belonging NATO are generally on the less corrupt end of scale, but there are problems with corruption even among them. There are also countries are not a part of NATO such as Moldova and Ukraine which have minimal, but still problematic corruption in their political systems, though it should be noted that a considerable portion of that corruption is encouraged and created by Russian proxies in those countries. This was part of the rationale of the United States working with the Ukrainians while I was there; by addressing the political corruption in the country, you are both making Ukraine more democratic and fighting Russian influence in the country.

There are countries like Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Belarus where corruption is rampant across their political landscapes ... but those countries' leadership have close ties with Russia and often appeal to Russia to them in power since they lack popular support. 

So to say Russia is globally concerned about corruption in other countries is inaccurate. 

The Russian government is perfectly fine with corruption as long the country is aligned with them.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Did Biden say something good to adequate Russians? It doesn't change much but it's still nice knowing that we are no alone


There's a general recognition here that the Russian government, not the general people, are to blame for the current situation in Ukraine.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

Yes.




__





						Biden Says Putin 'Cannot Remain In Power'
					

US President Joe Biden said his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power" and called the conflict in Ukraine a "strategic failure" for Moscow in a major speech in Warsaw.




					www.barrons.com
				



Pretty much everyone in any capacity to diminish Putin or counter the Russian Army ia trying something, anything, to stop him.

No one holds ordinary, everyday Russians acvountable for anything Putim is doing.  But Putin has now picked the scabs of the festering Cold War wounds to remain in power and cover up his corruption.  So now all he has is KGB tactics: fear, intimidation, and brute unmitigated force.

We are hoping ordinary Russians oust him of their own accord, but as was mentioned before, they are fairly beat down, demoralized, marginalized, and unfortunately used to this.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Never be ashamed of asking for more information in good faith, especially since the history here can be confusing and complex.
> 
> Former Soviet republics is board term encompassing a large number, about 15, of political systems dealing with varying levels and types of corruption. The countries now belonging NATO are generally on the less corrupt end of scale, but there are problems with corruption even among them. There are also countries are not a part of NATO such as Moldova and Ukraine which have minimal, but still problematic corruption in their political systems, though it should be noted that a considerable portion of that corruption is encouraged and created by Russian proxies in those countries. This was part of the rationale of the United States working with the Ukrainians while I was there; by addressing the political corruption in the country, you are both making Ukraine more democratic and fighting Russian influence in the country.
> 
> ...


Every country's got corruption in the government
Just how governments end up working


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Every country's got corruption in the government
> Just how governments end up working


True and there is such a thing as a degrees on a scale, too.

Also, given the prior administration and that fact the previous sitting president held up aid to Ukraine to extort political favors from President Zelenskyy during an active conflict, I feel we don't really have leg to stand on to call Ukraine corrupt and that we actually owe them the support they need to maintain their independence and rebuild.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Did Biden say something good to adequate Russians? It doesn't change much but it's still nice knowing that we are no alone





Miles Marsalis said:


> There's a general recognition here that the Russian government, not the general people, are to blame for the current situation in Ukraine.


Hmm.... I think he's asking (correct me if I'm wrong) if Biden said something positive to the Russian people since the invasion.....and as far as I can tell, the answer to that is no.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm.... I think he's asking (correct me if I'm wrong) if Biden said something positive to the Russian people since the invasion.....and as far as I can tell, the answer to that is no.


It's she  I meant more like "about Russians" not "to", since most of them can't hear him anyway


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

Positive was we aren't holding them responsible- this is all Putin.  Then he essentially told them sorry and prepare to embrace the suck until Putin is gone


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 26, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> I don't know Ukraine's level of corruption(I never lived in there) but in Russia it's certainly high (that I can tell) You said that USA is helping them fighting it, well, it won't work in Russia since most of it's people see US as a main threat


According to this corruption index, Russia ranks 136th most corrupt country while Ukraine ranks at 122th.
Not to say that any other country is perfect by any means, the US ranks as 27th which is not great, not terrible; some of it also increasing the corruption in Ukraine, speaking of extorting political favors from Ukraine in return for aid (said political favor being to fire a prosecutor who was uncovering the corrupt business dealings of his son with energy company Burisma, no less) here's a bit of a throwback


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Positive was we aren't holding them responsible- this is all Putin.  Then he essentially told them sorry and prepare to embrace the suck until Putin is gone


But... What will happen when he's gone? There are no normal politics and Navalniy turned out to be quit piece of shit


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

You think George Washington was a stand up guy? Thomad Jefferson?  Andrew Jackson?  Reagan?

Welcome to democracy where being a piece of shit is hopefully countered with two other branches of government who are also pieces of shit and all three want the same thing.

Which is also why the American public is pretty pissed off with the GOP stacking the Supreme Court because now all tjree are aligned under the same PoS banner.

Oh and normal peoe tend to ignore tbem because tjey are dysfunctional.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> You think George Washington was a stand up guy? Thomad Jefferson?  Andrew Jackson?  Reagan?
> 
> Welcome to democracy where being a piece of shit is hopefully countered with two other branches of government who are also pieces of shit and all three want the same thing.
> 
> ...


Heh, it's probably a naivety to think that another brand new leader is supposed to be the best (that is impossible)


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 26, 2022)

Anyway, Russian propagandists called "No War" or "Russians against war" motto a Nazi

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507720184823439380


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm.... I think he's asking (correct me if I'm wrong) if Biden said something positive to the Russian people since the invasion.....and as far as I can tell, the answer to that is no.


You would be wrong and I understood the question. 






Biden has directly addressed the Russian people and expressed goodwill towards them on multiple occasions besides this as well too.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> According to this corruption index, Russia ranks 136th most corrupt country while Ukraine ranks at 122th.
> Not to say that any other country is perfect by any means, the US ranks as 27th which is not great, not terrible; some of it also increasing the corruption in Ukraine, speaking of extorting political favors from Ukraine in return for aid (said political favor being to fire a prosecutor who was uncovering the corrupt business dealings of his son with energy company Burisma, no less) here's a bit of a throwback


*Officials in Trump’s own administration testified, under oath, that Biden had been carrying out United States foreign policy when he threatened to withhold $1 billion in aid until Ukraine fired that top prosecutor.* That threat, as Trump alleged, wasn’t because the prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, was investigating Burisma, the Ukrainian energy company on whose board Hunter Biden sat.* Shokin’s probe into Burisma had already been shelved.* Instead, Biden’s push to remove Shokin was because Shokin hadn’t seriously pursued political corruption in Ukraine, which the Obama administration viewed as key to Russia’s outsized influence in the country. Biden had done nothing unethical.

But don't let the facts stop you.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> *Officials in Trump’s own administration testified, under oath, that Biden had been carrying out United States foreign policy when he threatened to withhold $1 billion in aid until Ukraine fired that top prosecutor.* That threat, as Trump alleged, wasn’t because the prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, was investigating Burisma, the Ukrainian energy company on whose board Hunter Biden sat.* Shokin’s probe into Burisma had already been shelved.* Instead, Biden’s push to remove Shokin was because Shokin hadn’t seriously pursued political corruption in Ukraine, which the Obama administration viewed as key to Russia’s outsized influence in the country. Biden had done nothing unethical.
> 
> But don't let the facts stop you.


Oh no you didn't just post truth instead of alrernative Putin facts!  Fearless Leader will modernize his army and abandon his weapons in your country for this!

Outrage!


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> But don't let the facts stop you.


Frank's not at any risk in that aspect.


----------



## Kope (Mar 26, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> According to this corruption index, Russia ranks 136th most corrupt country while Ukraine ranks at 122th.
> Not to say that any other country is perfect by any means, the US ranks as 27th which is not great, not terrible; some of it also increasing the corruption in Ukraine, speaking of extorting political favors from Ukraine in return for aid (said political favor being to fire a prosecutor who was uncovering the corrupt business dealings of his son with energy company Burisma, no less) here's a bit of a throwback


The US is as much as an oligarchy as Russia is it just has more of them. Anyway as for my thoughts an the war. It is bad. Imperialism is bad. (Also trump had way more children involved with corruption and politics than Joe Biden (although he is corrupt and beholden to his donors as well) )


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

Kope said:


> The US is as much as an oligarchy as Russia is it just has more of them. Anyway as for my thoughts an the war. It is bad. Imperialism is bad. (Also trump had way more children involved with corruption and politics than Joe Biden (although he is corrupt and beholden to his donors as well) )


I'm going to push back on two points here, name what you said about Biden and our country.

First, I wholly admit Biden has faults; I feel he could be reactive to circumstances at times and I have certain policy quibbles regarding him. That said, the man came out of retirement to turn this country around after the shitshow of the prior 4 years, which I'm assuming you didn't care for either. Every politician who has effective solutions in this country receives money from big donors and small donors; you need private money to run and that comes with strings. Anyone who is living in reality realizes that. But maintaining Obamacare, the COVID stimulus, the Build Back Better Plan, and his consistent support for voting rights is demonstrably not for the megadonors' benefit; all that is for the American people.

Even you don't like Biden's politics, he is the lesser evil compared to Trump, as you've noted.

Second and most importantly, we are a much better system than Russia. Our democracy (note that we actually have one), economy, and society are much stronger and robust than the one Putin has created for his people. Unlike Russia, we have free speech here as well, unlike Russia where they are throwing people protesting against the war in prison.

Trying draw a false equivalency between us and Russia only serves Putin's and his regime's interest.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 26, 2022)

It has been said thay understanding the US is like 3 brothers and a sister.  They bicker, fight, draw blood, yell, scream, seperate a while, and then return as any dysfunctional family will.  Come from outside the family and take action, all differences are put aside until you're taken care of.

“May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won’t.” – George S. Patton

I don't see that happening with Putin.  He is on his own.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 26, 2022)

Oi I'm just going to slide in here and ask that we keep unrelated US politics out of this
If you feel a need to continue that conversation, please take it elsewhere
@Miles Marsalis @Kope and whoever else


----------



## Kope (Mar 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Oi I'm just going to slide in here and ask that we keep unrelated US politics out of this
> If you feel a need to continue that conversation, please take it elsewhere
> @Miles Marsalis @Kope and whoever else


Ok


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Oi I'm just going to slide in here and ask that we keep unrelated US politics out of this
> If you feel a need to continue that conversation, please take it elsewhere
> @Miles Marsalis @Kope and whoever else


I think US politics is a major component of this crisis, but I agree that what I brought could be discussed elsewhere.

I disagree with Kope on certain things and we've got different perspectives, but I know we share values, so I'm not angry with him.

Pardon the interruption.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 27, 2022)

I'll make my own discussion thread instead of writing here - and will keep you in touch about current Russian political and social state.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 27, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Frank's not at any risk in that aspect.


Ah, let's take this occasion to review your magnificent contribution to this thread, since you and the other two stooges have accused me of not taking this situation seriously enough. You seem to only ever come here to stir up drama about it, which is embarrassing. Stop that.

As for thought of the day on this situation : Putin is antifa as a world leader, here to "bash the fash", being a failure and hitting random targets indiscriminately. Thank god he's not "just an idea" tho.


----------



## Thrashy (Mar 27, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> On every investment you can be sure that 70% of the expenses will end on someones swiss bank account instead of it's dedicated purpose.


As someone from Switzerland, I can't express enough how ashamed the normal people here are because of our country supporting dictatorships. Sure, it made the country rich. But as a honest working person, you don't see much of that money. Guess the corruption doesn't end in dictatorships...


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 27, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> You would be wrong and I understood the question.


Okay.


AlmaRoy said:


> It's she  I meant more like "about Russians" not "to", since most of them can't hear him anyway


Yeah.... I actually thought about the proper pronoun usage thing - about an hour after I logged off yesterday..... so, my bad there..... I should've checked.  But I guess I misunderstood your question anyway.... but based on the user above, it looks like he did.
---------------------------------------------
@Flamingo I'm not trying to get into any political discussion points here, with my reply below.... okay?


Minerva_Minx said:


> You think George Washington was a stand up guy? Thomad Jefferson?  Andrew Jackson?


@Minerva_Minx Well, I and many other countless Americans would say a hearty yes to that..... to all three of them.

As many of us will point out that - in regards to Jackson, Washington, and Jefferson at least - the foundations of our very country and our republic were built by these men and also the many countless people (military officers, politicians, etcetera) that supported them in those times..... and in essence - we are the country that we are today based on many of their accomplishments.

To be honest - I think it's a bit easy for some of us to cast a semi-critical analysis sometimes; (even a disparaging one) of what these men did and where..... but in all honestly - many of us are doing so in the semi- "bubbles of privilige" that we all live in today in the comforts of the 21st century.

And so..... every American that cares about our country should thank these men (many of us will say).... as imperfect, and dare I say - human, as they were.
---------------------------
►[EDIT]: @The_Happiest_Husky I'll add some more thoughts below based on your request above (that I just saw).... so, hopefully that'll appease you.


The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Oi I'm just going to slide in here and ask that we keep unrelated US politics out of this
> If you feel a need to continue that conversation, please take it elsewhere
> @Miles Marsalis @Kope and whoever else


In regards to Russia's autocratic system however; which in turn might have laid down the ground work for the current invasion in Ukraine - many historical founding figures from their past - Stalin, Lenin, Brezhnev, etc...... who often times ruled with authoritarian regimes - created most of the system that helped give Putin his power today.

And so..... whilst we Americans can be thankful for our founding fathers - many Ukrainians probably don't feel the same way about the Soviet / Russian ones.


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 27, 2022)

This thread is going weird places.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 27, 2022)

Thrashy said:


> As someone from Switzerland, I can't express enough how ashamed the normal people here are because of our country supporting dictatorships. Sure, it made the country rich. But as a honest working person, you don't see much of that money. Guess the corruption doesn't end in dictatorships...


That's a issue many european countries fell for. Germany made a crucial mistake getting our country so dependant on russian Gas. And The Gold Visa given to Russian ologarchs by UK fell in the same category. They just took the money and gave a fuck about the circumstances. But If you dance with the _devil_, the _devil_ don't change. The _devil_ changes you. To quote this old movie line.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 27, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> This thread is going weird places.


No one has ever accused anyone on this thread of being normal.


Connor J. Coyote said:


> @Minerva_Minx Well, I and many other countless Americans would say a hearty yes to that..... to all three of them.
> 
> As many of us will point out that - in regards to Jackson, Washington, and Jefferson at least - the foundations of our very country and our republic were built by these men and also the many countless people (military officers, politicians, etcetera) that supported them in those times..... and in essence - we are the country that we are today based on many of their accomplishments.
> 
> ...


Totally agree.  But they weren't exactly "great" people.  Washington- slave owner, ordered Native Americans killed.  Jefferson - slave owner, claimed to Washington slaves and lamd increased personal wealth.  Jackson - Psychotic is a start.  Think Jackson nearly beat to death (with Jackson's own cane) a man to trying to assassinate him for the man's incompetence.  Then was later reticient for not shooting his own vice president.  Reagan was President when he had Alzheimer's.  Point is, they get elected and go away.

Here's to hoping Russia finds stability, Ukraine survives, China behaves, and Team America doesn't initiate WW3 because we want an awesome 4th of July.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 27, 2022)

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/was...roops-poland-youre-going-see-when-youre-there I'm conflicted, on one hand sending mixed messages CAN be tactically useful, for the same reason why setting up a "red line" is a bad idea (you don't want to let your enemy know WHEN too much is too much), on the other hand this seems like just another dementia gaffe, especially since this person got contradicted by his own staff immediately afterwards, which would instead further project weakness and confusion. Also calling for regime change in Russia, not saying it wouldn't potentially be a good thing but... how about if you're gonna escalate, at least don't get contradicted by your own staff immediately...? Yikes.

Not to mention how much justifications this can feed to Russian media. "See? the US was never just going to save Ukraine from our rightful liberation, they were always going to remove our glorious leader."


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 27, 2022)

That article is possibly the worst form of privileged, pompous, never spent a day in uniform contrivance of a piece based on a cream puff rainbow's special snowflake's belief in their own self-assurance.

The Ukrainian people are following the US Military example of bravery and patriotism in the face of nigh insurmountable odds and holding against a vastly superior and better armed and equipped force.  Which we helped train and trained with.

What we heard was, the US military is refereeing a fight.  Putin gets out of line, those Ukrainians are to be given the benefit of the doubt and you will support and work with them.  And end the fight.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 27, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Joe Biden said _what everybody was thinking here_. I'm not surprised they partially walked this back though, because this kind of commentary gives the Kremlin justification to portray the US as a political interferer and a threat to Russia- rather than concentrating on the reality that the Kremlin's territorial ambitions are killing innocent Ukrainians and ruining the lives of conscripted Russians.

You could argue the Kremlin is going to find a way to argue that black is white_ in any case_, I suppose.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 27, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> This thread is going weird places.


Expelling flamingos is part of the special operations for the demilitarization and denazification of the forums.


----------



## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 27, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Is anyone here from Russia?


Third Generation American but my Great-Grandfather was born in Russia.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 27, 2022)

Space Force using Spire data to detect satellite jamming - SpaceNews
					

Spire is providing GPS telemetry data to help detect jamming as part of a project run by the U.S. Space Systems Command




					spacenews.com
				



They had to be good at something besides trashing a country and dumping the expensive telecom everywhere, blowing up their own cell network, running out of gas, molding potatoes, spreading gastrointestinal distress from decades expired MREs, taking tactical advice from a potato....


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 27, 2022)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> Third Generation American but my Great-Grandfather was born in Russia.


Many Russians fleed during Civil War and it was a good choice


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 27, 2022)

So, awkward moment.  Someone in the Russian Army now in Ukraine asking me how to deal with all this over a radio link.
I sent him a picture of a shot glass of vodka and instructions for potato gun.
He told me it was very funny, and asked for advice since I had experience in combat.
I told him it is only good for one shot, so chew really quickly.
He sent a frowny face and said I wasn't much of a comedian.

Sorry, my dark humor is my best humor right now.  God, way my life is going there will be an article on Russian Man vs Florida Man.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 28, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> So, awkward moment.  Someone in the Russian Army now in Ukraine asking me how to deal with all this over a radio link.
> I sent him a picture of a shot glass of vodka and instructions for potato gun.
> He told me it was very funny, and asked for advice since I had experience in combat.
> I told him it is only good for one shot, so chew really quickly.
> ...


Hah, why would he ask for advice from "evil American" or as they call you "pendos"(hamulating name for USA citizens)? Not patriot, not patriot


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 28, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> No one has ever accused anyone on this thread of being normal.
> 
> Totally agree.  But they weren't exactly "great" people.  Washington- slave owner, ordered Native Americans killed.  Jefferson - slave owner, claimed to Washington slaves and lamd increased personal wealth.  Jackson - Psychotic is a start.  Think Jackson nearly beat to death (with Jackson's own cane) a man to trying to assassinate him for the man's incompetence.  Then was later reticient for not shooting his own vice president.


Well..... (my follow up comment on that) for whatever it's worth to people  is that: (the point of my posting above to you) is that: the Founding Fathers (here in the U.S.) were certainly not perfect people; they were human beings with human flaws just like we all are (obviously)...... but, in spite of those imperfections - it's important that we still reflect and honor their legacies frequently (especially today) many of us feel...... as our country would not be the same place it is now, without them being there at the times they were.

And so, whilst these histories aren't always pleasant, when we look at the overall benefits of our country and our World that they helped create - as stained as some of their histories are, we all still owe them a great deal of thanks...... (shrug).

►[EDIT]: Come to think of it, I should add - that, whilst I understand the above statements may sound a little preachy to some people that may read it.... it's the most honest, straight up answer I can give there..... and so, even though it sounds preachy, it's still very much true for most of us.
------------------------------
* (Back onto the topic at hand, though): As far as the Ukrainian conflict goes, it's in the news today that talks may be in the works between the two countries - as Zelenskyy is willing discuss Ukraine's possible "neutral" status with Russia, which is what they're demanding...... (and so perhaps, if things are successful there - things may end / or improve for them): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...it-zelenskyy-is-willing-to-discuss-neutrality


----------



## Flamingo (Mar 28, 2022)

JacobFloofWoof said:


> Expelling flamingos is part of the special operations for the demilitarization and denazification of the forums.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 28, 2022)

It's also quite disturbing how Putin's war draws some parallels to the events of 1939, both in both deed and wording. When Hitler attacked poland he also used the narrative of an alleged aggression Poland would have towards the German Reich. He basicly used the same allegations Putin used for his attack on Ukraine. And Just like Putin refuses to call his action a war, Hitlers propaganda minister Goebbels demand to call the invasion of Poland "a Counterstrike".

And there's also a striking similarity in symbolism. Putin uses the letter "Z" for the phrase the russian Phrase: "za pobedu" which translates to: "for Victory". Nazi Germany used the* ϟ *Sowilo Rune as symbol for their slogen: "Sieg Heil" translating to "for Victory" aswell. And both symbols have a strong optical similarity. So Putin is basicly re-enacting Nazi Germany, while at the same time calling out others to be the Nazis.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 28, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> True and there is such a thing as a degrees on a scale, too.
> 
> Also, given the prior administration and that fact the previous sitting president held up aid to Ukraine to extort political favors from President Zelenskyy during an active conflict, I feel we don't really have leg to stand on to call Ukraine corrupt and that we actually owe them the support they need to maintain their independence and rebuild.


To be fair, he did it because the current president had his druggie son stealing Ukraine's money through nepotism. Ukraine asked US for help after its 2014 revolution, and instead it got a bunch of corrupt US officials in positions they had no business being in -.-


----------



## Rassah (Mar 28, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Anyway, Russian propagandists called "No War" or "Russians against war" motto a Nazi


Oh this is so hilariously ironic with respect to the furry fandom. It's the equivalent of many of its members saying something like "If you're not willing to punch nazis, you're a nazi too."
Everything the fandom has been pushing with its own "you're a Nazi!" bullshit, Russia is now doing, and these same anti-Nazi crusaders are now against it


----------



## Attaman (Mar 28, 2022)

Attaman said:


> The slew of memes and at times non-existent filter to check sources before posting remain issues, agreed.
> 
> Efforts so far to try turn this into an anti-NATO / -EU / -UN platform have been shut down fairly quickly (which admittedly may be why _some_ people are upset), likewise efforts to tie this into US / UK politics (either current leaders or previous administrations), so that's been a plus. Likewise the gore very much _was_ an issue, but since Flamingo started putting their foot down that's been better. And barring a handful of posts, people have generally done fairly well not to pin this on the general Russian population.
> 
> But from start to present we've had a fair deal of content that comes down to "Meme-posts" or "Unverified Tweets".


Well this post aged like milk in the sun now didn’t it?


----------



## Kumali (Mar 28, 2022)

Attaman said:


> Well this post aged like milk in the sun now didn’t it?



Have to admit, after having my paws slapped for "politics," I'm just watching with amusement now as this thread goes sailing headlong into politics (as was unavoidable by its nature) and various folks take the opportunity to reveal their own tribalistic biases.


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 28, 2022)

Attaman said:


> Well this post aged like milk in the sun now didn’t it?


Imo this thread has no business being in a forum like this. 

But we knew that when we started, didn't we?


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 28, 2022)

Into every good idea, a dumpster fire falls. 

Oh well, back to banging my head on a desk over this.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 28, 2022)

Rassah said:


> To be fair, he did it because the current president had his druggie son stealing Ukraine's money through nepotism. Ukraine asked US for help after its 2014 revolution, and instead it got a bunch of corrupt US officials in positions they had no business being in -.-


I'm no fan of Hunter Biden, but Joe Biden and Marie Yovanavitch were above board.

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense to fire someone who did you a corrupt favor, because then they could spill the beans on you.

On the hand, Trump and Guiliani, both men you've supported, colluded in a scheme withhold from an ally locked in a conflict since 2014 where people have died on a daily basis.

I'm pushing back on this because besides truth mattering, people need to understand the decisions that got here and it's not impossible that a change in political leadership here could adversely effect our current support for Ukraine.

People need to think on that.

Also, I'm assuming this is known, but if people feel strongly about what is going on in Ukraine, they should call, not write or mail, their Congressional Representative or Senator to push for more aid for Ukraine. You can also coordinate with friends, family, and community members to for a calling campaign to your elected representative's office.

On issues like this, it makes a difference.


----------



## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 28, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Many Russians fleed during Civil War and it was a good choice


My Great Grandfather was born in Vilna, Russia around 1935, now part of Lithuania and left Russia for the USA around 1855-1860. One of the family had a picture of him wearing what might have been a Cossack garb and one of my cousins has his sword that is marked all in Cryllic. He fought on the Union side in the US Civil War with the Yew York 6th Heavy Artillery company H. He may have been fleeing the new Tzar's regime, since he never gave a full story to anyone alive at the time.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 28, 2022)

When you have a cold, it's hard to believe disease and illness are more survivable and preventable than ever before.  The same, I am coming to understand, can be said of war: just going out of fashion.

For Russian Army
Wagner Group in Syria is currently having technical issues.  Technically, they saw an AC-130 and stopped breathing.

Ok bad joke.  Or is it?

Seriously guys, hope you are still at least relatively safe.


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 28, 2022)

Right when he says, "it's because I'm scared", is really heartbreaking; the whole video is:


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 29, 2022)

People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 29, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?


Yep, we still do, and we see plenty of it everyday. Speaking of which now even the mainstream media is turning against this sad excuse for a world leader. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/biden-putin-remain-power-anxiety-europe-ukraine-war-rcna21783 a refreshing sight; also a shame to see some of the same people so concerned about escalation, giving justifications for that sort of rhetoric after so vehemently condemning it under different, much less dramatic circumstances. We condemn them all the same. We've seen before the abhorrent results of the US's regime change fetish.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 29, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> * (Back onto the topic at hand, though): As far as the Ukrainian conflict goes, it's in the news today that talks may be in the works between the two countries - as Zelenskyy is willing discuss Ukraine's possible "neutral" status with Russia, which is what they're demanding...... (and so perhaps, if things are successful there - things may end / or improve for them): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...it-zelenskyy-is-willing-to-discuss-neutrality


Well, as a follow up... there's another update on this today, as the talks are getting set to resume in Turkey later this week.... as Zelenskyy is insisting now on Ukraine's "territorial intergrity" and border security with Russia during the talks..... and, it remains to be seen if any disputes may arise on any of that, if a peace deal is hammered out:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/28/russia-ukraine-set-for-face-to-face-peace


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 29, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?



In Germany you can say anything, aslong it doesn't incite violance or hatred towards others. But beyond that you can rant and roast anyone of the political officals as much as you like. And there are also several cases where politicans had to go due to scandals of public pressure. And there are several shows on TV making fun of certain politicans and their actions. Generally politicans have much less power and influence here. They are more like administrative employees then actual leaders. And there are many checks and balances in place to prevent the misusage of power. The legislativ power is exerted by our parlament, in which the representatives of all elected parties debate over any decision before it's carried out. And there are up to 6 different political factions in our parlament which have to form coalitions to get a government majority. Due to this we have a strong culture of compromises. German politics always strives for the middleground between diffent interts and perspectives, instead of forcing a decision.


----------



## TR273 (Mar 29, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?


Yep!

I frequently do.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 29, 2022)

Thank you all for your answers, it was really interesting to know about western freedom of word


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 29, 2022)

This war might cause massive food shortages, given the amount Ukraine and Russia contribute to global wheat production https://nypost.com/2022/03/17/looming-food-shortages-is-worlds-next-slow-moving-disaster/
Brings into question China's role in this, as they've been hoarding massive amounts of grain since late last year https://headlineusa.com/china-hoards-half-of-world-grain-reserve-prepares-for-famine/ Rings a bell? it should, since they had also hoarded medical supplies a while before they made the Wuhan situation public. Could the communist party have been aware of what Putin was preparing, as other pieces of intelligence input suggest?


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 29, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> This war might cause massive food shortages, given the amount Ukraine and Russia contribute to global wheat production https://nypost.com/2022/03/17/looming-food-shortages-is-worlds-next-slow-moving-disaster/
> Brings into question China's role in this, as they've been hoarding massive amounts of grain since late last year https://headlineusa.com/china-hoards-half-of-world-grain-reserve-prepares-for-famine/ Rings a bell? it should, since they had also hoarded medical supplies a while before they made the Wuhan situation public. Could the communist party have been aware of what Putin was preparing, as other pieces of intelligence input suggest?


Don't forget the tp!


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 29, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Don't forget the tp!


For the great Cornholio


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 29, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> This war might cause massive food shortages, given the amount Ukraine and Russia contribute to global wheat production https://nypost.com/2022/03/17/looming-food-shortages-is-worlds-next-slow-moving-disaster/
> Brings into question China's role in this, as they've been hoarding massive amounts of grain since late last year https://headlineusa.com/china-hoards-half-of-world-grain-reserve-prepares-for-famine/ Rings a bell? it should, since they had also hoarded medical supplies a while before they made the Wuhan situation public. Could the communist party have been aware of what Putin was preparing, as other pieces of intelligence input suggest?


Wait. Before going into tinfoil hat territory. There's another explanation that makes a lot more sense. There was already a looming problem related to wheat and fertilizer imports due to the supply chain disruption caused by covid and governments response. So that would explain why China was so early in basically scalping the grain market.
Could be another of these problems, like inflation and gas prices, that have become worse due to the Ukraine invasion but already were bad due to covid and government mismanagement, and that some people try to convince you are solely due to the most recent crisis.


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 29, 2022)

Factories that were closed during Putin's reign. It's not complete list, the factory in my home town, it's soul and heart, was destroyed in 2020. Some of them were founded in 19th century


----------



## JacobFloofWoof (Mar 29, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?


Yes, for now.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 29, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> Thank you all for your answers, it was really interesting to know about western freedom of word


During the 90th, there was a similar culture in russia aswell. Back then there even was a satirical puppet show called "Kukly", which made fun of Putin and Jelzin, before it got banned in the early 2000er years:


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 29, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?


That's like half our fun.  Also Senators, representatives, school board members...  also, big reason not to discuss politics in the forums asit can become heated, personal, or just destructive.  usually disagreements in US are discussed until either compromise or everyone agrees the idea is either stupid or genius.  

Like tiktok challenges


----------



## AlmaRoy (Mar 29, 2022)

dragon-in-sight said:


> During the 90th, there was a similar culture in russia aswell. Back then there even was a satirical puppet show called "Kukly", which made fun of Putin and Jelzin, before it got banned in the early 2000er years:


Oh, I've watched that show


----------



## Kope (Mar 30, 2022)

If anyone wants a good detail following of the war look up DylanBurnsTv on YouTube


----------



## Kope (Mar 30, 2022)




----------



## Rassah (Mar 30, 2022)

AlmaRoy said:


> People from USA (or EU) do you have a freedom of word? Can you openly say that you don't like your president and want them to go away?


In USA, yes, we do, but there's a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of word (speech), with the excuse that they don't want Nazis to speak. Same as Putin's reasons.
Actually, the trend is so escalating and so alarming that my family and I, who escaped from USSR, and a lot of my other ex-USSR friends and families living in US and Canada, are "running from communism" again. We're seeing too many familiar signs that we saw home, and want to get out before things go the way we've seen them go before.



Frank Gulotta said:


> We've seen before the abhorrent results of the US's regime change fetish.


At least if it happens this time, it will be a regime preservation, not change, and be a defensive war, not offensive. Then again, Yemen, which some people like to bring up with the prefix "You didn't care about... so why...?" started out with someone else being on the offense and US only got involved as defence too...


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 30, 2022)

Rassah said:


> In USA, yes, we do, but there's a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of word (speech), with the excuse that they don't want Nazis to speak. Same as Putin's reasons.
> Actually, the trend is so escalating and so alarming that my family and I, who escaped from USSR, and a lot of my other ex-USSR friends and families living in US and Canada, are "running from communism" again. We're seeing too many familiar signs that we saw home, and want to get out before things go the way we've seen them go before.


Yeah, my Ukranian family members are talking about that, most of them came here in fear of the USSR. My cousin Paul (mentioned him earlier, he had to be treated for radiation poisoning after Chernobyl) is very angry about where so many people are pushing the USA to go


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 30, 2022)

A T-34-85 tank stands over the destruction in Trostyanets, Ukraine





If anyone knows what war monument this is, what the plaque talks about, I'd love to know


----------



## Kumali (Mar 30, 2022)

Rassah said:


> In USA, yes, we do, but there's a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of word (speech), with the excuse that they don't want Nazis to speak. Same as Putin's reasons.
> Actually, the trend is so escalating and so alarming that my family and I, who escaped from USSR, and a lot of my other ex-USSR friends and families living in US and Canada, are "running from communism" again. We're seeing too many familiar signs that we saw home, and want to get out before things go the way we've seen them go before.



I'm curious: what specific examples do you see of an "escalating trend" of "a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of speech"?


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 30, 2022)

Kumali said:


> I'm curious: what specific examples do you see of an "escalating trend" of "a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of speech"?


Antifa is a pretty good example along with the radical left on Twitter and such.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 30, 2022)

Kumali said:


> I'm curious: what specific examples do you see of an "escalating trend" of "a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of speech"?


University polling, cancel culture, social media censorship, all of it becoming normalized, lots of things.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 30, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Antifa is a pretty good example along with the radical left on Twitter and such.



Antifa and Twitter users are really impinging anybody's freedom of speech? As if they even had any power to do so?



Rassah said:


> University polling, cancel culture, social media censorship, all of it becoming normalized, lots of things.



The only people I see still using the term "cancel culture" unironically these days tend to be on the political right, which is pretty rich considering this sort of thing: 









						Tennessee pastor leads burning of Harry Potter and Twilight novels
					

The livestreamed event drew large crowds, who cheered as books deemed ‘demonic’ by pastor Greg Locke went up in flames




					www.theguardian.com
				




Not to mention Colin Kaepernick...

Seriously. Both of you. Let's have some _specific_ examples of your right to free speech being encroached upon in the U.S. There's a difference between being "censored" and (for example) a privately-owned social media platform enforcing their terms of use as they see fit, or a university determining its own curriculum. (Besides, what about Liberty University and all the other evangelical schools? Do you find those universities equally "censorious"?)

Given the Christian right's long and well-documented history of censorship on their own part - up through and including the book burning linked above - I tend not to be too sympathetic when they whine about their views being unpopular now in certain circles. 

And to return to the topic of this thread, I think it's extremely dangerous right now to be comparing the U.S. with Russia in that regard. I'm not seeing this sort of thing in the U.S., or anything like it:









						Russia Takes Censorship to New Extremes, Stifling War Coverage
					

Contradicting the Kremlin on the war in Ukraine — even calling it a war — is now a crime, prompting independent media to close, and Russia cut off access to Facebook, the BBC and other news sources.




					www.nytimes.com
				












						Russia increases censorship with new law: 15 years in jail for calling Ukraine invasion a 'war'
					

As Russia grows increasingly isolated from the Western world due to sanctions, the Kremlin has embraced the isolation by pushing speech and the press.



					www.usatoday.com
				












						The Tightening Grip of Censorship in Russia
					

Since the start of the war in Ukraine, social media has been restricted or banned in Russia—but a few outlets continue their coverage.




					www.thenation.com
				




So maybe we could cool it a little with the hyperbole?


----------



## Attaman (Mar 30, 2022)

Look, I know I didn’t help last page by being cheeky but as of the last two pages literally about _half _the posts in the “Ukrainian War Discussion Thread” have been Politics Forum grudges, _about _Politics Forum grudges, honorable mentions of “COVID was done on purpose” / “Can you _really _define a fascist?”… and this ratio doesn’t particularly improve if one goes shortly further back.

I would really, _really _rather not see this thread locked (particularly as, if the Unpopular Opinion threads are anything to go by, it means Tyra’s sister thread will likely be locked in short order too as people springboard into earlier discussions / the same behavior), so… uh, maybe can we not?

People know I have strong opinions on a lot of these subject matters (indeed, many users gathered have strong opinions about my strong opinions, of which in turn I have strong opinions about their strong opinions about- and now I’m crosseyed), so that I’m saying “Can we not?” Instead of wading in will hopefully… like, if not stop these conversations at least lower their ratio to less than half the posts?

“An on-going invasion that has displaced millions and lead to significant turmoil for several times that again” thread deserves to not be locked.


----------



## Kope (Mar 30, 2022)

Rassah said:


> In USA, yes, we do, but there's a growing population here who wants to eliminate freedom of word (speech), with the excuse that they don't want Nazis to speak. Same as Putin's reasons.
> Actually, the trend is so escalating and so alarming that my family and I, who escaped from USSR, and a lot of my other ex-USSR friends and families living in US and Canada, are "running from communism" again. We're seeing too many familiar signs that we saw home, and want to get out before things go the way we've seen them go before.
> 
> 
> At least if it happens this time, it will be a regime preservation, not change, and be a defensive war, not offensive. Then again, Yemen, which some people like to bring up with the prefix "You didn't care about... so why...?" started out with someone else being on the offense and US only got involved as defence too...


Communism is when no free speech lol


----------



## ben909 (Mar 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> Communism is when no free speech lol


generally, no free speech is a sign of (cannot spell, the word that starts with an A and applies to dictatorships)  i don't really see a difference between fascist restriction of speech and communist restriction of speech,  the stated justifications may varry,  but the real justification to persevere power is the same


----------



## Kope (Mar 30, 2022)

Rassah said:


> University polling, cancel culture, social media censorship, all of it becoming normalized, lots of things.


Public criticism has always existed


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 30, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Given the Christian right's long and well-documented history of censorship on their own part - up through and including the book burning linked above - I tend not to be too sympathetic when they whine about their views being unpopular now in certain circles.


Speaking of which, how are Christianity and especially Orthodox Christianity doing in Russia and Ukraine during all of this?

Especially Russia - my usual 30-second research is telling me it's not exactly tolerant territory and I wonder if they're actually managing to cope or if they're being led into the attitude of these heretics you're referencing.


(Sorry, but calling that particular batch of preachy censorious types "Christians" like you're doing is one of those things I view as harmful to public safety, so I'm not acknowledging them as such anymore.  It's become clear to me they kinda failed to comprehend the religion at all.)


----------



## Kope (Mar 30, 2022)

ben909 said:


> generally, no free speech is a sign of (cannot spell, the word that starts with an A and applies to dictatorships)  i don't really see a difference between fascist restriction of speech and communist restriction of speech,  the stated justifications may varry,  but the real justification to persevere power is the same


True but most people who believe in left leaning ideas value free speech so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. (Stochastic terrorism and the like)


----------



## ben909 (Mar 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> Public criticism has always existed


so has the desire to suppress it seems


this really does risk getting into something it should not, but for the first queston asked that started this tangent

yes, the us has free speech, but its not unlimited and only applies to governments, not possible aggressive  neighbors

talking to someone from russia or china though, its probably right to say we do have full free speech, as its a whole different level


----------



## ben909 (Mar 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> True but most people who believe in left leaning ideas value free speech so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. (Stochastic terrorism and the like)


can we not go there...

also i don't find that 100% true, its how far they are in their beliefs...


----------



## Smityyyy (Mar 30, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Antifa and Twitter users are really impinging anybody's freedom of speech? As if they even had any power to do so?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shhhh don’t point out that the right wing is the only group passing actual legislation censoring literature and freedom of speech — it hurts their feelings! 

Seriously, though, it’s hilariously ironic. It’s also hilarious that people in this thread are frothing at the mouth over Biden so badly that they can’t help but keep bringing him up over and over in a thread that is supposed to be as apolitical as possible.


----------



## ben909 (Mar 30, 2022)

can we please not bring western politics in to this...
(admittedly i am not good at this as well)


----------



## Kope (Mar 30, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Shhhh don’t point out that the right wing is the only group passing actual legislation censoring literature and freedom of speech — it hurts their feelings!
> 
> Seriously, though, it’s hilariously ironic. It’s also hilarious that people in this thread are frothing at the mouth over Biden so badly that they can’t help but keep bringing him up over and over in a thread that is supposed to be as apolitical as possible.


True ,but we should stay on topic. So apparently Russia has destroyed food supplies https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...house-on-fire-after-deliberate-russian-attack


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 30, 2022)

I do hope we can keep this thread to its original purpose and not get it locked


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> I do hope we can keep this thread to its original purpose and not get it locked


I wish we could talk about politics in general but I understand that it would cause chaos probably


----------



## Rassah (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Antifa and Twitter users are really impinging anybody's freedom of speech? As if they even had any power to do so?


Yes. They vote, and eventually get elected in positions of power with constituents supporting these same ideas.



Kumali said:


> The only people I see still using the term "cancel culture" unironically these days tend to be on the political right,


Yes. Everyone else is pretty much normalizing the concept. That's the whole problem.

It's only a few small steps from this to accusing people of being enemies of the state or dangerous terrorists, and sending people to prison for voicing unapproved opinions. Read up on Soviet history, specifically its formative years. Like I said, those of us with past personal and extended family experiences are noticing the trends happening here, even if others who never lived through it don't.

My hope is that some of the people who were the most obnoxiously loudest (the loud majority I hope?) will look at the Russian propaganda and realize that what they were themselves doing was dumb too. 



Kope said:


> Public criticism has always existed



Sure. But the difference now is that a conversation that involves criticism isn't even allowed to happen. Nothing that can be criticized is even allowed to exist (and yes, in every example of attempted communism, free speech was one of the first casualties).



Kope said:


> True but most people who believe in left leaning ideas value free speech so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. (Stochastic terrorism and the like)



If you believe in free speech "except when..." then you no longer believe in free speech.

With regards to the Ukraine situation, back before Nazi Germany did their thing, eugenics and other similar ideas were actually pretty popular and normal around the world, including USA. But Nazis basically blatantly exposed the massive problems with a whole lot of those kind of ideas, and the people who used to support those ideas realized how terrible they were. Ideas that they THOUGHT were "for the greater good" and thus absolutely refused to admit were horribly flawed. Maybe the same will happen with this Russian invasion. It's following similar propaganda tactics and ideas that Nazis were doing, and they're also using some of the same bad ideas that some in other countries are currently strongly supporting "for the greatee good" that hopefully people will snap out of.


----------



## Rassah (Mar 31, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Speaking of which, how are Christianity and especially Orthodox Christianity doing in Russia and Ukraine during all of this?



Probably same. You know how your can tell someone they're not allowed to drink for most of their life, and then as soon as they get a chance to do it, they go overboard? With religion being outlawed in those countries while there were USSR, once that law went away both went overboard. Lots of crazy religions and cults popped up all over the place. And as far as I know, at this point they're at the very conservative orthodox religion stage. Anything but straight is very dangerous in Russia. In Ukraine too, though less so. And with the war, you have your typical stupid mix, with some priests blessing Russian tanks and Ukrainian javelins, and others preaching for peace and to stop the fighting.



Kope said:


> So apparently Russia has destroyed food supplies https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...house-on-fire-after-deliberate-russian-attack



If I know my communist/Soviet history, next step is, once food there starts getting scarce, they will start blaming it on the rich hoarding food and resources to gouge people for more profits, rather than take responsibility for their actions. Like they did with Kulaks and during Ukrainian Holodomor.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> I wish we could talk about politics in general but I understand that it would cause chaos probably


Absolute, awful, disgusting chaos
90% of people interested in talking politics, no matter which side they're on, seem incapable of making discussion without A) Turning it into an argument B) Making gross generalizations C) Refusing to listen to anything outside their own viewpoint

I like to count myself outside that 90% but I have to admit even I fall to the issues I listed sometimes
Best to leave political talk, especially that related to the USA, out of any conversation when at all possible

In case anyone feels it might be, no, this is not an attack on anyone on this thread
It's merely a statement of my observations as to how things go, no matter the location


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 31, 2022)

Apparently, Putin is unaware of Putin's war and disaster








						Vladimir Putin’s advisers scared to tell him the truth, says British spy chief
					

The head of Britain’s GCHQ spy agency said Russian troops were short of weapons and low on morale.




					www.aol.com
				




Exaggerated patriotism is the most insincere form of self-conceit. - Oscar Wilde


Rassah said:


> Probably same. You know how your can tell someone they're not allowed to drink for most of their life, and then as soon as they get a chance to do it, they go overboard? With religion being outlawed in those countries while there were USSR, once that law went away both went overboard. Lots of crazy religions and cults popped up all over the place. And as far as I know, at this point they're at the very conservative orthodox religion stage. Anything but straight is very dangerous in Russia. In Ukraine too, though less so. And with the war, you have your typical stupid mix, with some priests blessing Russian tanks and Ukrainian javelins, and others preaching for peace and to stop the fighting.


I have seen US Military chaplains do the same.  i think I posted once on here a blessing of AR-15s and other guns.  It's weird.


Rassah said:


> If I know my communist/Soviet history, next step is, once food there starts getting scarce, they will start blaming it on the rich hoarding food and resources to gouge people for more profits, rather than take responsibility for their actions. Like they did with Kulaks and during Ukrainian Holodomor.


It's a tactic meamt to divide a people.  Unfortunately, it will just make the Russian government a pariah for the next 50 or so years, and the country likely longer.



The_Happiest_Husky said:


> In case anyone feels it might be, no, this is not an attack on anyone on this thread
> It's merely a statement of my observations as to how things go, no matter the location


I am a naughty Zoot and you must spank me for my transgressions!


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I am a naughty Zoot and you must spank me for my transgressions!


*spits drink*


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> *spits drink*


Dare I say and after the spankings, the oral sex?

Light the Grail signal again!


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Dare I say and after the spankings, the oral sex?
> 
> Light the Grail signal again!


Damn I love that movie lmao


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 31, 2022)

Rassah said:


> Anything but straight is very dangerous in Russia. In Ukraine too, though less so.


Ok, i just got this, but let me ask to be sure.  We're talking LGBTQ?  Because some of the woman fighting I am possibly secretly fantasizing about.

Don't dash my dreams!


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Rassah said:


> Yes. They vote, and eventually get elected in positions of power with constituents supporting these same ideas.
> 
> 
> Yes. Everyone else is pretty much normalizing the concept. That's the whole problem.
> ...


Go yell fire in a crowded theater and tell me if you still have absolute free speech in America then.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> 90% of people interested in talking politics, no matter which side they're on, seem incapable of making discussion without A) Turning it into an argument B) Making gross generalizations C) Refusing to listen to anything outside their own viewpoint


Well frankly, that could be said for any topic though..... not just including politics (which is no longer allowed on here regrettably)..... but, one could also say that - the beauty of having an open forum (like this) is the ability of users to make said "gross generalizations" in the first place; and in turn "refuse to listen to anything outside their own viewpoints" when their heels are dug in..... which then provides other users at that point the opportunity to discuss with the user some various nuances (in their generalizations they believe in) in order to perhaps get them to change their outlooks and minds.

And so, dialogue on an open platform makes this possible for us to do; and also allows more analysis and debate on issues that we probably wouldn't have otherwise.

So, making gross generalizations and refusing to listen can serve a purpose..... as frustrating as it is to some of us.
-------------------------------------
And, as a follow up to this:


Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well, as a follow up... there's another update on this today, as the talks are getting set to resume in Turkey later this week.... as Zelenskyy is insisting now on Ukraine's "territorial intergrity" and border security with Russia during the talks..... and, it remains to be seen if any disputes may arise on any of that, if a peace deal is hammered out:
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/28/russia-ukraine-set-for-face-to-face-peace


In Ukraine news: Russia has now "played down" the peace talks going on, and has even intensified some of the attacks in the East, according to today's reports:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia...d-attacks-continue-around-ukraine-11648634073


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Well frankly, that could be said for any topic though..... not just including politics (which is no longer allowed on here regrettably)..... but, one could also say that - the beauty of having an open forum (like this) is the ability of users to make said "gross generalizations" in the first place; and in turn "refuse to listen to anything outside their own viewpoints" when their heels are dug in..... which then provides other users at that point the opportunity to discuss with the user some various nuances (in their generalizations they believe in) in order to perhaps get them to change their outlooks and minds.
> 
> And so, dialogue on an open platform makes this possible for us to do; and also allows more analysis and debate on issues that we probably wouldn't have otherwise.
> 
> ...


Hopefully they can drive them out of East Ukraine too. Since they manage to discourage them from pushing into the west.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

Rassah said:


> Yes. They vote, and eventually get elected in positions of power with constituents supporting these same ideas.



As do people who believe in right-wing ideas. That's how democracy is supposed to work. You are aware, aren't you, that there are a great many hard-right politicians in positions of power in the U.S. at the moment, having been elected to those positions? And that the Supreme Court is heavily stacked with right-wing justices now, thanks to McConnell's maneuverings? Are you really that frightened that the U.S. is on the verge of some sort of liberal silencing of conservative voices?



Rassah said:


> Yes. Everyone else is pretty much normalizing the concept. That's the whole problem.
> 
> It's only a few small steps from this to accusing people of being enemies of the state or dangerous terrorists, and sending people to prison for voicing unapproved opinions.



Slippery slope fallacy. Not buying it.









						Slippery slope - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






Rassah said:


> the difference now is that a conversation that involves criticism isn't even allowed to happen. Nothing that can be criticized is even allowed to exist (and yes, in every example of attempted communism, free speech was one of the first casualties).



I'm not seeing that here in the U.S. I see plenty of open conversation and debate, with all sides being well represented in public forums. (Up to and including the huge "FUCK BIDEN" flags and Confederate flags I regularly see on public display.) If you genuinely think America's on a course toward the sort of censorship going on in Russia, you're making up your own narrative.

So to return once again to the topic of this thread, I will reiterate that comparing political dialogue and debate in the U.S. (and the occasional social consequences that result, on both sides) with the draconian censorship presently underway in Russia is disingenuous and unhelpful.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> As do people who believe in right-wing ideas. That's how democracy is supposed to work. You are aware, aren't you, that there are a great many hard-right politicians in positions of power in the U.S. at the moment, having been elected to those positions? And that the Supreme Court is heavily stacked with right-wing justices now, thanks to McConnell's maneuverings? Are you really that frightened that the U.S. is on the verge of some sort of liberal silencing of conservative voices?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well spoken words


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Slippery slope fallacy. Not buying it.


Is it tho? there's been a Canadian blackface enthusiast who tried declaring peaceful protesters "terrorists" not long ago, he was just slammed in Europe for his love of dictatorship.


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Is it tho? there's been a Canadian blackface enthusiast who tried declaring peaceful protesters "terrorists" not long ago, he was just slammed in Europe for his love of dictatorship.



*Peaceful as in having extremists using it as an excuse to promote violence and misinformation and other extremist ideologies... when there are Nazi and Confederate flags and gun caches around, the original purpose of the protest has been lost.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Attaman said:


> Look, I know I didn’t help last page by being cheeky but as of the last two pages literally about _half _the posts in the “Ukrainian War Discussion Thread” have been Politics Forum grudges, _about _Politics Forum grudges, honorable mentions of “COVID was done on purpose” / “Can you _really _define a fascist?”… and this ratio doesn’t particularly improve if one goes shortly further back.
> 
> I would really, _really _rather not see this thread locked (particularly as, if the Unpopular Opinion threads are anything to go by, it means Tyra’s sister thread will likely be locked in short order too as people springboard into earlier discussions / the same behavior), so… uh, maybe can we not?
> 
> ...


Putin's antifa endeavor is entirely relevant to the topic of the war in Ukraine, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he partly got so cocky as to invade due to seeing all the division and weakness caused by this "idea" in the West. That's I would suspect why he was so surprised that the West actually managed to show a somewhat united response. These points are important and I'm thrilled the conversation can get to them instead of everyone being stuck at the level of "war=bad". If you're uncomfortable with them, nobody is forcing you to engage.


TyraWadman said:


> *Peaceful as in having extremists using it as an excuse to promote violence and misinformation and other extremist ideologies... when there are Nazi and Confederate flags and gun caches around, the original purpose of the protest has been lost.


Peaceful as in, there's been no violence from the protesters. Also the "spot the few extremists in the group, use them to justify police brutality and seizing protesters' bank accounts" line is eerily similar to Putin's justification to bomb civilians. EXACTLY MY POINT. That is rancid.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Putin's antifa endeavor is entirely relevant to the topic of the war in Ukraine, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he partly got so cocky as to invade due to seeing all the division and weakness caused by this "idea" in the West. That's I would suspect why he was so surprised that the West actually managed to show a somewhat united response. These points are important and I'm thrilled the conversation can get to them instead of everyone being stuck at the level of "war=bad". If you're uncomfortable with them, nobody is forcing you to engage.
> 
> Peaceful as in, there's been no violence from the protesters. Also the "spot the few extremists in the group, use them to justify police brutality and seizing protesters' bank accounts" line is eerily similar to Putin's justification to bomb civilians. EXACTLY MY POINT. That is rancid.


You always have the most.. interesting takes Frank anyway Putin and his oligarchs have been eyeing Ukraine for a while now. The oil fields there are very fertile and if taken over would have boosted Russia’s economy by a ton. To act like Putin has no agency or will of his own is quite ridiculous and shows you put your political bias before what the reality of the situation is.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> You always have the most.. interesting takes Frank anyway Putin and his oligarchs have been eyeing Ukraine for a while now. The oil fields there are very fertile and if taken over would have boosted Russia’s economy by a ton. To act like Putin has no agency or will of his own is quite ridiculous and shows you put your political bias before what the reality of the situation is.


That's not what I said, sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting Putin has no agency. I am not sure what made you think that. Care to elaborate?


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> That's not what I said, sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting Putin has no agency. I am not sure what made you think that. Care to elaborate?


You said, “Putin's antifa endeavor is entirely relevant to the topic of the war in Ukraine, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he partly got so cocky as to invade due to seeing all the division and weakness caused by this "idea" in the West”  so while I’m sure Putin keeps an eye on what is going on in the west he makes these decisions more than just a whim or feeling of what his perception is of social movements in the west.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Is it tho? there's been a Canadian blackface enthusiast who tried declaring peaceful protesters "terrorists" not long ago, he was just slammed in Europe for his love of dictatorship.


 Name? Details? Asking seriously; I hadn't heard about this, and I'm curious what the story is.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> You said, “Putin's antifa endeavor is entirely relevant to the topic of the war in Ukraine, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he partly got so cocky as to invade due to seeing all the division and weakness caused by this "idea" in the West”  so while I’m sure Putin keeps an eye on what is going on in the west he makes these decisions more than just a whim or feeling of what his perception is of social movements in the west.


Well, that's all I meant by that, "Putin keeps an eye on what is going on in the west". That's why I said "partly".


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Well, that's all I meant by that, "Putin keeps an eye on what is going on in the west". That's why I said "partly".


So what are the other reasons then and why would you specify antifa without mentioning those other important factors


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Name? Details? Asking seriously; I hadn't heard about this, and I'm curious what the story is.


He’s talking about Justin Treadou when he put on a stupid costume party back when he was a dumb kid. I think people can change and shouldn’t be canceled based on a few poor choices as a young child. It’s good to keep it in mind but judge more  a person by  their actions and words in the modern era


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 31, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Dare I say and after the spankings, the oral sex?
> 
> Light the Grail signal again!


What is the windspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


Kumali said:


> Name? Details? Asking seriously; I hadn't heard about this, and I'm curious what the story is.


Hes talking about the Canadian Trucker Convoy that was waving all the Trump and Confederate battle flags.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> So what are the other reasons then and why would you specify antifa without mentioning those other important factors


Because not all of the reasons for this war are relevant to this specific point, or even known to us.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Because not all of the reasons for this war are relevant to this specific point, or even known to us.


Not known to you maybe, but experts that study geopolitical issues like this do. Fear mongering outlets only get you so far when it comes to learning about the world you know.


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Peaceful as in, there's been no violence from the protesters. Also the "spot the few extremists in the group, use them to justify police brutality and seizing protesters' bank accounts" line is eerily similar to Putin's justification to bomb civilians. EXACTLY MY POINT. That is rancid.



Bank accounts have been frozen to deter the blockades. If people just marched down the streets, or gathered at a city hall, it wouldn't have been an issue. If you block ambulances, fire trucks and other emergency services from helping people in need, you are putting people at risk. If extremist groups are hiding within their ranks and intend to cause violence, I would let the police act sooner than later, because lord knows the endless takes people are going to have if they '_didn't do anything about it sooner_'. (not justifying any police brutality that may have taken place, but allowing authorities to take action)


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Hes talking about the Canadian Trucker Convoy that was waving all the Trump and Confederate battle flags.



Ah yes, the "Freedom Convoy."









						Canada's 'Freedom Convoy' has shut down Ottawa and is blocking $500 million daily in cross-border trade. Here's where things stand
					

Canadian authorities are increasingly clamping down on the protests—like freezing personal bank accounts and blacklisting crypto wallets.




					fortune.com
				




"Truckers blockaded bridges and border crossings, at a cost of half a billion dollars in daily trade with the U.S. Meanwhile, protestors have paralyzed Ottawa, causing the mayor to declare a state of emergency."

"Ontario police announced that *at least 46 people have been charged with 90 crimes in relation to the Ambassador blockade*."

"Canada implemented the Emergencies Act partly due to protestors who refused to leave the border posts at Alberta and Manitoba. But the action prompted protestors to further block and disrupt commercial traffic at the two sites in defiance of the new rules. 

*"On Monday, the blockade took a darker turn when the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP)—Canada's federal police seized a "heavy stash" of weapons including guns, ammunition, and a machete from a fringe group of protestors linked to the Alberta-Montana blockade. On Tuesday, four Canadians were charged with conspiracy to commit murder, with at least a dozen others in court facing weapons and mischief-related charges. RCMP officers were the targets of those charged, said the RCMP's chief superintendent Trevor Daroux.*

"Experts worry that far-right, extremist elements have latched onto the movement to spread their ideology. The Canadian Anti-Hate Network found that some of the vests seized on Monday in Alberta displayed insignia belonging to Diagolon, *a right-wing militia network that allegedly advocates for violent revolution to topple the government.* Throughout the demonstrations, a few fringe protestors have also displayed *Confederate and Nazi flags*."

Emphases added. Peaceful protest? As soon as the white supremacist symbols start being waved around, it's not "peaceful" anymore, to my way of thinking. To say nothing of the weapons stash. And importantly, I don't remember seeing any of the Convoy organizers denouncing any of that. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas, as the saying goes.

And I hardly think implementing the Emergencies Act in response to protesters blockading roads and sabotaging the economy equals a "love of dictatorship." 

To return once more to the topic of this thread: The U.S. and Canada are far from perfect, like any country, but they're most definitely not engaging in the sort of government censorship and brutality that Putin's Russia is. Period. Full stop. It ain't happening. And to hint that it is, is dishonest fearmongering.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Bank accounts have been frozen to deter the blockades. If people just marched down the streets, or gathered at a city hall, it wouldn't have been an issue. If you block ambulances, fire trucks and other emergency services from helping people in need, you are putting people at risk. If extremist groups are hiding within their ranks and intend to cause violence, I would let the police act sooner than later, because lord knows the endless takes people are going to have if they '_didn't do anything about it sooner_'. (not justifying any police brutality that may have taken place, but allowing authorities to take action)


The only thing that is potentially worrysome is that freezing bank accounts could be used as a precedent to stop real protests with actual just causes (leftist fighting for higher wages, racial justice and the like)


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> The only thing that is potentially worrysome is that freezing bank accounts could be used as a precedent to stop real protests with actual just causes (leftist fighting for higher wages, racial justice and the like)



People can worry about a lot of things but often cross the boundaries of being irrational. 

Just because I have a knife in the house doesn't mean I'm going to stab someone, I'm just using it to cut my food.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Bank accounts have been frozen to deter the blockades. If people just marched down the streets, or gathered at a city hall, it wouldn't have been an issue. If you block ambulances, fire trucks and other emergency services from helping people in need, you are putting people at risk. If extremist groups are hiding within their ranks and intend to cause violence, I would let the police act sooner than later, because lord knows the endless takes people are going to have if they '_didn't do anything about it sooner_'. (not justifying any police brutality that may have taken place, but allowing authorities to take action)


Still a peaceful protest
More peaceful than others we've seen in cities like Seattle anyway, and those were filled to the brim with extremists AND actually caused violence, plenty of it. Kids lost their lives in Seattle's "autonomous zone" because since these dicks had kicked the police out, emergency services didn't want to intervene. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53224445 There's been a handful of arrests in this case, because... well... they were actually causing violence (at least 4 shootings in ten days) but I'm unaware of any repercussions of that totalitarian kind. Would you also support such measures in this case?


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Still a peaceful protest
> More peaceful than others we've seen in cities like Seattle anyway, and those were filled to the brim with extremists AND actually caused violence, plenty of it. Kids lost their lives in Seattle's "autonomous zone" because since these dicks had kicked the police out, emergency services didn't want to intervene. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53224445 There's been a handful of arrests in this case, because... well... they were actually causing violence (at least 4 shootings in ten days) but I'm unaware of any repercussions of that totalitarian kind. Would you also support such measures in this case?


93% of a myriad of protests were peaceful during BLM protests. The rest were escalated by police using less than lethal ammunition to break up crowds. https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/?amp=true


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> The only thing that is potentially worrysome is that freezing bank accounts could be used as a precedent to stop real protests with actual just causes (leftist fighting for higher wages, racial justice and the like)



Agreed, and the price of liberty is eternal vigilance, as the saying goes. But we can remain vigilant without falling into the slippery-slope fallacy.



Frank Gulotta said:


> Still a peaceful protest



Nope. Not when they're blocking bridges and (especially) border crossings. And _certainly_ not when they're displaying white supremacist symbols.



Frank Gulotta said:


> repercussions of that *totalitarian* kind



Oh, please. Implementing the Emergencies Act, a statute passed by a democratically-elected Canadian Parliament in 1988, is not "totalitarianism."









						Emergencies Act - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> 93% of a myriad of protests were peaceful during BLM protests. The rest were escalated by police using less than lethal ammunition to break up crowds. https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/?amp=true


That's still 7% more violence than the truckers and yet I only see justifications for totalitarian measures when it comes to them. That only tells me one thing, seeing only one side is a hell of a drug. No wonder Putin still has supporters in Russia (to keep the thread on topic)


Kumali said:


> Nope. Not when they're blocking bridges and (especially) border crossings.


Blocking a bridge is violence now? because I've seen copious amounts of footage of blm blocking ways, CHOP not the least, perhaps their percentage of violence is a lot higher than 7% after all


Kumali said:


> Oh, please. Implementing the Emergencies Act, a statute passed by a democratically-elected Canadian Parliament in 1988, is not "totalitarianism."


You can't not understand that adding a statute to law democratically doesn't mean every use of it, no matter how unjustified, can't be totalitarian.
In this instance, implementing a measure meant for dealing with terrorists to beat peaceful protesters into submission definitely is.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> That's still 7% more violence than the truckers and yet I only see justifications for totalitarian measures when it comes to them. That only tells me one thing, seeing only one side is a hell of a drug. No wonder Putin still has supporters in Russia (to keep the thread on topic)
> 
> Blocking a bridge is violence now? because I've seen copious amounts of footage of blm blocking ways, CHOP not the least, perhaps their percentage of violence is a lot higher than 7% after all
> 
> ...


You realize the more protests you have the more likely riots will occur right? Especially if the government doesn’t listen to what you have to say? Like MLK said ,”riots are the language of the unheard”


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 31, 2022)

Just saying next few hours are going to go off the wall bonkers.  No context, but almost like stupidity was a taste of military idiocy to come.

Starting with "Whack a Wagner"


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> You realize the more protests you have the more likely riots will occur right? Especially if the government doesn’t listen to what you have to say? Like MLK said ,”riots are the language of the unheard”


Ok but now all you're doing is justifying violence

We've drifted that far away from topic.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Blocking a bridge is violence now? because I've seen copious amounts of footage of blm blocking ways, CHOP not the least, perhaps their percentage of violence is a lot higher than 7% after all



OK then: even if we grant that one can block a bridge and remain peaceful - which I question - blocking an international border crossing? Not peaceful. And displaying white supremacist symbology as part of the protest (as I added in a later edit to my last post)? Most certainly NOT peaceful.



Frank Gulotta said:


> You can't not understand that adding a statute to law democratically doesn't mean every use of it, no matter how unjustified, can't be totalitarian.
> In this instance, implementing a measure meant for dealing with terrorists to beat peaceful protesters into submission definitely is.



Not peaceful protesters. Canada used the act for what it was intended for.

Wikipedia: "Under the _Emergencies Act_, the Cabinet of Canada can declare a national emergency in response to *an urgent and critical situation that cannot be dealt with by any existing law, and either is beyond the capability of a province to deal with it or threatens the sovereignty of Canada."*

Furthermore, "Before declaring a national emergency, *the federal cabinet must consult with provincial cabinets*. In the case of a public welfare or public order emergency where the effects of the emergency are confined to, or occur principally in, one province, *the Emergencies Act cannot be used if the provincial cabinet does not indicate that the situation is beyond the capacity of the province to deal with it. Once an emergency is declared, it is subject to confirmation by the House of Commons and Senate.*" - Wikipedia

Emphases added. Doesn't sound very totalitarian to me, especially if all those legislative bodies are democratically elected.

Returning one more time to the thread topic: neither Canada nor the United States are engaging in anything remotely resembling the censorship and suppression that Putin's Russia is. Those who maintain such are only revealing their own biases, and not arguing in good faith. Especially when using inflammatory rhetoric like "beat peaceful protesters into submission," "a Canadian blackface enthusiast" and "his love of dictatorship."


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 31, 2022)

It didn't take long for politicos to decide this thread was actually all about them and the irrelevant subjects they're obsessed with. ._.
_again_


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Still a peaceful protest
> More peaceful than others we've seen in cities like Seattle anyway, and those were filled to the brim with extremists AND actually caused violence, plenty of it. Kids lost their lives in Seattle's "autonomous zone" because since these dicks had kicked the police out, emergency services didn't want to intervene. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53224445 There's been a handful of arrests in this case, because... well... they were actually causing violence (at least 4 shootings in ten days) but I'm unaware of any repercussions of that totalitarian kind. Would you also support such measures in this case?



Yes it wasn't as destructive but that doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. Just because the fire isn't as tall as another existing wildfire doesn't mean it shouldn't be handled. 

 I'm not going to bother with the rest though, simply because we had this discussion about Seattle back when the politics thread existed.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> It didn't take long for politicos to decide this thread was actually all about them and the irrelevant subjects they're obsessed with. ._.
> _again_



Well, as I said way back in post #205, "It's hard to see how discussion of an active war can avoid politics." And "If we're to avoid politics, perhaps this whole thread should be taken down as per the forum's ban on political content. One country invading another militarily, and other countries' reaction to it, can hardly avoid being political on the face of it."

And that was before certain furs started claiming America and Canada either engage in the same forms and degree of censorship as Putin's Russia or are headed in that direction. And that's a simple factual fallacy (related to the the thread topic) that I felt obligated to call out, above and beyond anybody's specific political loyalties.

Anyway, I've said my piece on the whole "America is turning into Russia with no free speech" thing. Carry on.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

@Frank Gulotta Never said it was ok just that there are reasons.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Fallowfox said:


> It didn't take long for politicos to decide this thread was actually all about them and the irrelevant subjects they're obsessed with. ._.
> _again_


Lmao true


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Well, as I said way back in post #205, "It's hard to see how discussion of an active war can avoid politics." And "If we're to avoid politics, perhaps this whole thread should be taken down as per the forum's ban on political content. One country invading another militarily, and other countries' reaction to it, can hardly avoid being political on the face of it."
> 
> And that was before certain furs started claiming America and Canada either engage in the same forms and degree of censorship as Putin's Russia or are headed in that direction. And that's a simple factual fallacy (related to the the thread topic) that I felt obligated to call out, above and beyond anybody's specific political loyalties.
> 
> Anyway, I've said my piece on the whole "America is turning into Russia with no free speech" thing. Carry on.



Yeah, I completely see the relevance of politics. 
It's just very frustrating to see people trying to exploit a humanitarian disaster to promote their perspectives about 'culture war' subjects.

These subjects aren't really relevant to the discussion, apart from the fact they represent fault lines of political weakness in the west that the Kremlin is attempting to exploit.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Yes it wasn't as destructive but that doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. Just because the fire isn't as tall as another existing wildfire doesn't mean it shouldn't be handled.
> 
> I'm not going to bother with the rest though, simply because we had this discussion about Seattle back when the politics thread existed.


A more apt comparison would be fire VS not a fire


Kumali said:


> OK then: even if we grant that one can block a bridge and remain peaceful - which I question - blocking an international border crossing? Not peaceful. And [...] not reading this whole off topic rambling


Speaking of definitions, "peaceful" apparently means "devoid of violence or force", so yeah it was actually peaceful
We've been over that "singling out a few extremists" crap, it's crap for at least two reasons, one of which actually relevant for this thread since one of the justifications Putin used was a few extremists in the Ukrainian army. It's fantastic how much you agree with Putin on without even realizing it.
I'm also unsure how blocking a bridge is supposed to threaten Canada's sovereignty, Putin has slightly more of a claim that Ukraine joining NATO would threaten Russia's sovereignty, and even this claim is garbage.

As you can tell I'm really struggling to keep the thread on topic, if you want to keep justifying Trudeau's love for basic dictatorship feel free to scream into the wind, I'll no longer respond at least in length


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Please stay on topic, everyone
I made this thread for a purpose, and I don't want to see it taken down. If you really need to talk politics, please shift to DMs or another forum or messaging site that allows political topics

@Frank Gulotta @Kumali Counting up recent posts, you two are tending to be the ones most often leaning the thread towards political topics. Please stop


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Please stay on topic, everyone
> I made this thread for a purpose, and I don't want to see it taken down. If you really need to talk politics, please shift to DMs or another forum or messaging site that allows political topics
> 
> @Frank Gulotta @Kumali Counting up recent posts, you two are tending to be the ones most often leaning the thread towards political topics. Please stop


Ok


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

So what are the chances of the Russian people revolting against Putin and his capitalist oligarchy


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> So what are the chances of the Russian people revolting against Putin and his capitalist oligarchy


Very low


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> So what are the chances of the Russian people revolting against Putin and his capitalist oligarchy


Considering how many have already been jailed, and mutterings of purges, their numbers may be low.  :[

Edit: sorry I think cleansing might have been the word he used?


----------



## Parabellum3 (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> So what are the chances of the Russian people revolting against Putin and his capitalist oligarchy


Only people who may have a chance at revolting are military units who have the firepower to do so.

_Also it's quite ironic to label him as a capitalist since most of his allies are commie countries._


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Very low


Maybe not. The sanctions are working, overperforming even, and therefore creating pressure on the Russian people to consider whether their leadership is worth the hardship they are currently facing. A phrase I've heard some of my Russian friends use is "a war between the fridge and the television" to describe how people are being forced to reconsider the government's propaganda versus their basic needs. In a few months, they could very well be more open to a government without Putin. 

The major problem is that there isn't really any opposition to Putin with the political infrastructure to take over; Navalny is incarcerated on false charges and the remaining political parties are harmless to Putin.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Please stay on topic, everyone
> I made this thread for a purpose, and I don't want to see it taken down. If you really need to talk politics, please shift to DMs or another forum or messaging site that allows political topics
> 
> @Frank Gulotta @Kumali Counting up recent posts, you two are tending to be the ones most often leaning the thread towards political topics. Please stop



You know what? The whole thread _should_ be taken down. As I said before, it's an inherently political topic, and politics are supposedly banned on this forum.

If people are going to take the opportunity to turn discussions of censorship in Russia during this war - which does fall under the category of "topics you want to discuss relating to the war in Ukraine," as you said in your initial post - into inflammatory and misleading statements about my country and others, I see no reason to allow the thread to continue, as per forum rules banning politics.

@Flamingo


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> You know what? The whole thread _should_ be taken down. As I said before, it's an inherently political topic, and politics are supposedly banned on this forum.
> 
> If people are going to take the opportunity to turn discussions of censorship in Russia during this war - which does fall under the category of "topics you want to discuss relating to the war in Ukraine," as you said in your initial post - into inflammatory and misleading statements about my country and others, I see no reason to allow the thread to continue, as per forum rules banning politics.
> 
> @Flamingo


Do you just have a problem with everyone? I've never actually seen you be nice. If this thread is such an issue for you then please, just ignore it. You already dragged Flamingo in here once


----------



## ConorHyena (Mar 31, 2022)

Kumali said:


> [SNIP]



I actually agree with this. In the end I don't think this thread really needs to be on a furry site, inflammatory political content aside.

A thread/sticky about 'how to support ukraine in this situation' or something with links to the appropriate sites, and sans discussion would, in my opinion, be significantly more constructive, especially given this demographic and the fault lines that run through it.


----------



## Kumali (Mar 31, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> A thread/sticky about 'how to support ukraine in this situation' or something with links to the appropriate sites, and sans discussion would, in my opinion, be significantly more constructive, especially given this demographic and the fault lines that run through it.


 Thank you. I agree. I think that'd be an excellent resource.


----------



## TyraWadman (Mar 31, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> I actually agree with this. In the end I don't think this thread really needs to be on a furry site, inflammatory political content aside.
> 
> A thread/sticky about 'how to support ukraine in this situation' or something with links to the appropriate sites, and sans discussion would, in my opinion, be significantly more constructive, especially given this demographic and the fault lines that run through it.



*coughcough* Oh geeze, look at all this dust!


			https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/ukraine.1678793/
		




Kumali said:


> You know what? The whole thread _should_ be taken down. As I said before, it's an inherently political topic, and politics are supposedly banned on this forum.
> 
> If people are going to take the opportunity to turn discussions of censorship in Russia during this war - which does fall under the category of "topics you want to discuss relating to the war in Ukraine," as you said in your initial post - into inflammatory and misleading statements about my country and others, I see no reason to allow the thread to continue, as per forum rules banning politics.
> 
> @Flamingo



I was kinda hoping they would have addressed this similarly to how Covid topics were handled. You can still talk about how it affects you, friends, family, how you keep busy and entertained during lockdowns, etc. Just don't get into the politics and argue over presidents and shit.


----------



## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> I wish we could talk about politics in general but I understand that it would cause chaos probably


Politics = eventual dumpster fire that can't be put out.

This is why furries can't have anything nice.


----------



## Kope (Mar 31, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Only people who may have a chance at revolting are military units who have the firepower to do so.
> 
> _Also it's quite ironic to label him as a capitalist since most of his allies are commie countries._


Look up Vlads speeches on the Soviet Union. He doesn’t like using wealth to help the poor and oligarchy is in direct conflict of true socialism. My mouth hurts from my wisdom teeth being pulled out so I that’s all I’ll say for now as I can’t think through the pain.


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> My mouth hurts from my wisdom teeth being pulled out so I that’s all I’ll say for now as I can’t think through the pain.


Ouch, hope you feel better soon 
I had mine removed a couple years ago


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Mar 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> So what are the chances of the Russian people revolting against Putin and his capitalist oligarchy


It doesnt really require a revolution, all that would be necessary to end this would be for one person to assassinate Putin. 

Here is some emotional and spiritual support for any Ukrainians out there:


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 31, 2022)

Ohhh, irony...








						Russian Troops Suffer ‘Acute Radiation Sickness’ After Digging Chernobyl Trenches
					

SeanGallupSeveral hundred Russian soldiers were forced to hastily withdraw from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in Ukraine after suffering “acute radiation sickness” from contaminated soil, according to Ukrainian officials.The troops, who dug trenches in a contaminated Red Forest near the site...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Morale so low, they're shooting each other.








						Russians 'Shooting Down Their Own Aircraft'—Spy Chief on Troops' Low Morale
					

Britain's spy chief Jeremy Fleming said there's evidence Russian troops are "short of weapons and morale."




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Mar 31, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Ohhh, irony...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw a post about that a while ago on NCD but it sounded so dumb I didn't believe it
My gosh russia


----------



## Parabellum3 (Apr 1, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Ohhh, irony...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They may as well fly back to Moscow in their planes and drop a bomb on the Kremlin.


----------



## Kope (Apr 1, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Ohhh, irony...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn some of those Russian soldiers are just constripted kids told lies about the country (Nationalism and Denazification of Ukraine)


----------



## Kope (Apr 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> It doesnt really require a revolution, all that would be necessary to end this would be for one person to assassinate Putin.
> 
> Here is some emotional and spiritual support for any Ukrainians out there:


I wonder if it would bring about an even worse monster if that happened. I don’t want anyone to die, but Vlad has to answer for his war crimes. (Wish American Presidents/ military involved in them too could face justice) Unfortunately these people seem to be untouchable.


----------

