# Transgendered 6-year-old wins rights to girls bathroom at school.



## Icky (Jun 24, 2013)

After all that madness about the bullying news story, this LGBT rights victory is pretty refreshing.

http://news.msn.com/us/rights-case-ruling-favors-transgender-6-year-old



> Colorado officials say a suburban Colorado Springs school district discriminated against a 6-year-old transgender girl by preventing her from using the girls' bathroom, in what advocates described as the first such ruling in the next frontier in civil rights...
> 
> "This is by far the high-water mark for cases dealing with the rights of transgendered people to access bathrooms," said the Mathis family's attorney, Michael Silverman of the Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund. He and other advocates said the case is one of several potentially ground-breaking transgendered civil-rights cases winding their way through the nation's courts.



Thoughts? I'm actually pretty pleased with this. T is the oft-overlooked part of the LGBT community, and it's good to see a case ruled in their favor.


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## CannonFodder (Jun 24, 2013)

Icky said:


> Thoughts?


Captain, I am detecting a immenient shit storm incoming on this thread.
What do you think McCoy we should do to avoid this storm?
Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor not a miracle worker.


Icky said:


> After all that madness about the bullying news story, this LGBT rights victory is pretty refreshing.
> http://news.msn.com/us/rights-case-ruling-favors-transgender-6-year-old
> Thoughts? I'm actually pretty pleased with this. T is the oft-overlooked  part of the LGBT community, and it's good to see a case ruled in their  favor.


I'm actually pretty pleased with it as well cause before organizations could demand trasngender to ONLY use their original sex's bathroom, and well it could end violently.  Basically if you are transgender and went into your non-birth sex's bathroom you could have wound up getting massive fines or even jail time, or even so far as well getting the utter shit beaten out of you.


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## MalMask (Jun 24, 2013)

That is a bit of good news compared to that other article. School can be such a stressful environment and the issue that they forced Coy to stand in line for a boys room is sad. If people just put themselves in other's shoes they'd realize just how awkward and upsetting that would be for a kid. I think people are starting to lighten up about trans folk, which is good to see, considering how much shit trans people get.


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## Seekrit (Jun 24, 2013)

aww, this is feelgoodz c:

I'm more happy that little gurl doesn't have to feel bad anymore than about the wider significance of the court's ruling. Actually surprised something as simple as taking a piss is still an issue.


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## Aleu (Jun 24, 2013)

inb4 someone claims about how the kid will start raping the girls or something.

I'm pretty happy about this. It's kind of ridiculous about how people will resort to violence just because someone needs to use the toilet. The stalls are there for a reason. Sheesh.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 24, 2013)

Good for that kid, I guess. I don't think it's some huge civil rights victory or anything but whatever.


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## Inciatus (Jun 24, 2013)

But if they use different bathrooms that kid will start raping the girls because men can only think about rape, especially those people who are too young to know what the fuck sex is!


Aleu said:


> inb4 someone claims about how the kid will start raping the girls or something.


fuck



> I'm pretty happy about this. It's kind of ridiculous about how people will resort to violence just because someone needs to use the toilet. The stalls are there for a reason. Sheesh.


I think it is silly too.


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## CannonFodder (Jun 24, 2013)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Good for that kid, I guess. I don't think it's some huge civil rights victory or anything but whatever.


Short version of why it's a big deal:
Assholes would make laws and/or require that if you are at their place of business that you use your birth sex's bathroom, then if someone didn't they would beat the living shit out of them/push others to beat the shit out them/throw them in jail.  To give a analogy imagine if there was a law or a business requiring someone that's gay to on a regular basis announce that they're gay then "push" for people to beat the shit out them or do it themselves and that if they didn't announce it to everyone they would throw them in jail.

It doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but when you consider the people who make these kinds of rules are the same people who would smash your face in with a brick it's a big win.

Tl:dr; It's a win cause assholes would make rules or laws like these to forcibly out people in violently hostile places.


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## Heliophobic (Jun 24, 2013)

I was having a relatively pleasant night...


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## TransformerRobot (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm happy for the kid.


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## Sparklepaws (Jun 25, 2013)

Honestly I was more concerned about the possible responses I would be reading on this thread, but I've been pleasantly surprised :3

It's good that people are starting to wise up about this sort of thing. I'm extremely happy that this story is a good story, as opposed to the common news rabble that seems to spew sewage every five seconds. We need more victories like this on the press.


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## AlexInsane (Jun 25, 2013)

They should make kids like that crap in a special porta potty outside the school. If you have a peepee, you go in the boys room, if you have a hoohoo, you go in the girls. If you don't know what you are, get the hell out of our bathrooms, we don't want you in there.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

AlexInsane said:


> They should make kids like that crap in a special porta potty outside the school. If you have a peepee, you go in the boys room, if you have a hoohoo, you go in the girls. If you don't know what you are, get the hell out of our bathrooms, we don't want you in there.


We were doing so well without this bullshit.


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jun 25, 2013)

seeing only "transgendered 6 year old" at first i expected a lot worse than what is here.


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

AlexInsane said:


> They should make kids like that crap in a special porta potty outside the school. If you have a peepee, you go in the boys room, if you have a hoohoo, you go in the girls. If you don't know what you are, get the hell out of our bathrooms, we don't want you in there.


Way to be an insensitive dick.


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## Aetius (Jun 25, 2013)

Machine said:


> Way to be an insensitive dick.



Gotta give credit for the honesty.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

AlexInsane said:


> They should make kids like that crap in a special porta potty outside the school. If you have a peepee, you go in the boys room, if you have a hoohoo, you go in the girls. If you don't know what you are, get the hell out of our bathrooms, we don't want you in there.



The hell is wrong with you? :T


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

Serbia Strong said:


> Gotta give credit for the honesty.


Well, there's always a way to be honest without sounding like a complete asshole. :I


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## Aetius (Jun 25, 2013)

Machine said:


> Well, there's always a way to be honest without sounding like a complete asshole. :I



I would agree that there are. Many ways.


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## TrishaCat (Jun 25, 2013)

They actually had issues with a 6 year old going into the girl's bathroom? Really? She's 6!!!


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

Serbia Strong said:


> I would agree that there are. Many ways.


If there weren't, how would anything be explained to children? :V


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## Aetius (Jun 25, 2013)

Machine said:


> If there weren't, how would anything be explained to children? :V



Hey, you can be honest while "spicing" the truth.

They told us that in class once.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

Snowden going to Moscow? Pfft.

Transgendered 6 year old (OH COME ON) wins bathroom privileges? Now THAT'S relevant!


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Snowden going to Moscow? Pfft.
> 
> Transgendered 6 year old (OH COME ON) wins bathroom privileges? Now THAT'S relevant!



Dah fuck is a snowden?


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## Harbinger (Jun 25, 2013)

Should 6 years olds even fucking think about stuff like this?


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

Alastair Snowpaw said:


> Dah fuck is a snowden?



He's the guy who hacked the NSA system and became a whistle-blower. After the USA tried to crucify him he fled to Moscow along with all the NSA data and will be going to Ecuador because he's a goddamn boss.


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## Aetius (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> He's the guy who hacked the NSA system and became a whistle-blower. After the USA tried to crucify him he fled to Moscow along with all the NSA data and will be going to Ecuador because he's a goddamn boss.



Lets see how long he can run away from the Espionage Act of 1917.

Im sure the ghost of President Wilson will haunt him till the end of times.


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## AlexInsane (Jun 25, 2013)

Machine said:


> Well, there's always a way to be honest without sounding like a complete asshole. :I



Bullshit there is. 

I'd rather be direct and have people hate me for it than lard it down with semantics and not have them know what I meant. 

And really, this sort of thing pisses me off. I'm almost certain the parents are pushing for this more than the kid is - what 6 year old child cares about gender identity? What 6 year old child is capable of comprehending such subtleties, and the myriad complications that follow said subtleties in the real world?


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

Putin is sitting with our NSA documents because we chased our own whistle-blower out of the country, the USA took a shot to the nuts on that one.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Snowden going to Moscow? Pfft.
> 
> Transgendered 6 year old (OH COME ON) wins bathroom privileges? Now THAT'S relevant!


 I dearly apologize for my irrelevant, unimportant news story. I will now be posting only the most important world issues in an attempt to correct this error. Thank you for your understanding.


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## DrDingo (Jun 25, 2013)

What I love about this story is that they get a civil rights ruling because of something that seems so tiny. It's a stepping stone, I guess.


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## Percy (Jun 25, 2013)

DrDingo said:


> What I love about this story is that they get a civil rights ruling because of something that seems so tiny. It's a stepping stone, I guess.


Exactly my thoughts. It's seemingly minor, but it's something.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

DrDingo said:


> What I love about this story is that they get a civil rights ruling because of something that seems so tiny. It's a stepping stone, I guess.



Yeah, that's how most sweeping legal changes come about. It just takes somebody with the drive to pursue the case and set a precedent.


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## Artillery Spam (Jun 25, 2013)

How can a 6 year old kid know anything about gender identity? 

Seriously, this story makes no sense.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

Artillery Spam said:


> How can a 6 year old kid know anything about gender identity?
> 
> Seriously, this story makes no sense.



Don't try to argue the rationality of it, we have an emotionally charged subject here!


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## Khopesh (Jun 25, 2013)

My brain hurts.

Half of me says, "Cool, ok, so the kid who's conforming to the opposite gender than what they are expected to be gets proper treatment, that's good."
Other half says, "How does the school explain this to other kids. Christ, most adults don't know gender identity well enough. A lot of them think gender = sex."

Then the third half of me says, "I'm a kitty."


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

Khopesh said:


> My brain hurts.
> 
> Half of me says, "Cool, ok, so the kid who's conforming to the opposite gender than what they are expected to be gets proper treatment, that's good."
> Other half says, "How does the school explain this to other kids. Christ, most adults don't know gender identity well enough. A lot of them think gender = sex."
> ...



Only people who listen to sociologists thing gender doesn't equate to sex. You know, the same people that gave us such wonderful things as political correctness and affirmative action.


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## Khopesh (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Only people who listen to sociologists thing gender doesn't equate to sex. You know, the same people that gave us such wonderful things as political correctness and affirmative action.




Wow, that's off. I learned that from Anthropology, the gender =/= sex thing. Certain humanities have taught this, but it's not well spread.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Khopesh said:


> Other half says, "How does the school explain this to other kids. Christ, most adults don't know gender identity well enough. A lot of them think gender = sex."



Ugh, I hate this argument so much. Why the hell should somebody not have their rights because it's tough to explain?

Y'know, I bet not one of the six-year-olds in Coy's class even know she was born with a penis. And if they did, they certainly wouldn't make a big deal about it, because they don't know that it's weird yet. Kinda sad.



TeenageAngst said:


> Only people who listen to sociologists thing gender doesn't equate to sex. You know, the same people that gave us such wonderful things as political correctness and affirmative action.



Are you done yet?


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## Khopesh (Jun 25, 2013)

Icky said:


> Ugh, I hate this argument so much. Why the hell should somebody not have their rights because it's tough to explain?



Um, reread my statement and tell me where the fuck it says, "BECAUSE TOUGH, NO RIGHTS." I said it's a difficult thing to explain and I know it's gonna crop up eventually. I also know most people don't understand the subject at all. My brain hurts because this may crop up in 10 years because of idiots teaching shit they don't understand. Thanks for assuming my brain making that statement meant they should have less rights.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Khopesh said:


> Um, reread my statement and tell me where the fuck it says, "BECAUSE TOUGH, NO RIGHTS." I said it's a difficult thing to explain and I know it's gonna crop up eventually. I also know most people don't understand the subject at all. My brain hurts because this may crop up in 10 years because of idiots teaching shit they don't understand. Thanks for assuming my brain making that statement meant they should have less rights.



Hey, I never said you thought that, I was talking about the way that argument is often used. And I really disagree that it's a hard concept to learn, but how hard is it to get that some people are born with the wrong gender identity? The only people that wouldn't get it are the adults who are too stuck it their own ways to adapt to change. I mean, hell, the Native Americans _revered_ transgendered people.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

Khopesh said:


> Wow, that's off. I learned that from Anthropology, the gender =/= sex thing. Certain humanities have taught this, but it's not well spread.



Cause it's gobbledy-goo and respected sections of academia view the humanities as diploma mills for the self-righteous.


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## Khopesh (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Cause it's gobbled-goo and respected sections of academia view the humanities as diploma mills for the self-righteous.



I'm in archaeology. There's 25 people in the whole program. All I do is touch old things. BEST DIPLOMA MILL EVER


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## Mentova (Jun 25, 2013)

and once again FAF proves that it is not mature enough to discuss hot button social issues! :V

Try and be a bit more mature about this please. No more slap fights and douchery.


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## CaptainCool (Jun 25, 2013)

I just love how people here are judging this situation purely on speculation.
Of course a 6 year old kid can have problems with gender identity. The story does seem a little fishy to me but you know what? I don't give a shit because I am ok with the result. There might be more important stuff going on in the world but for me social issues like this are also pretty damn important.


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## Batty Krueger (Jun 25, 2013)

A six year old transgender, that's totall...



WAIT WTF!?


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## Foxdoge (Jun 25, 2013)

Harbinger said:


> Should 6 years olds even fucking think about stuff like this?



Well, so long as it isn't stigmatized within the household, and traditional gender roles aren't enforced, a lot of children toy with clothing and toys that are classically intended for the opposite gender. It isn't really outside of the realm of reason for a child at that age to identify as the opposite gender if they do not feel that the connotations of their biological sex match their sense of self; while the household may not push gender, media still unavoidably does.  It's actually a lot easier for a child to conceive of such a notion, and while it may or may not be permanent in the long run, it should by no means be discouraged.

I, for one, am glad to hear news that western society is reforming its outlook on such matters.



AlexInsane said:


> Bullshit there is.
> 
> I'd rather be direct and have people hate me for it than lard it down with semantics and not have them know what I meant.
> 
> And really, this sort of thing pisses me off. I'm almost certain the  parents are pushing for this more than the kid is - what 6 year old  child cares about gender identity? What 6 year old child is capable of  comprehending such subtleties, and the myriad complications that follow  said subtleties in the real world?



A lot of children in more liberal households toy with the idea,  really.  I mean, I'm not saying it isn't because of unintentional  suggestions from the parents, but nonetheless, it isn't that bizarre of a concept.


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## CannonFodder (Jun 25, 2013)

AlexInsane said:


> And really, this sort of thing pisses me off. I'm almost certain the parents are pushing for this more than the kid is - what 6 year old child cares about gender identity? What 6 year old child is capable of comprehending such subtleties, and the myriad complications that follow said subtleties in the real world?





Artillery Spam said:


> How can a 6 year old kid know anything about gender identity?
> 
> Seriously, this story makes no sense.


I take it neither of you have kids, or have raised kids?  Kids are a hell of a lot smarter than people give them credit for.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Putin is sitting with our NSA documents because we chased our own whistle-blower out of the country, the USA took a shot to the nuts on that one.



So your country's biggest rival has your state secrets.

How will I sleep at night?


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 25, 2013)

> A lot of children in more liberal households toy with the idea, really. I mean, I'm not saying it isn't because of unintentional suggestions from the parents, but nonetheless, it isn't that bizarre of a concept.




A lot of children also toy with the idea of becoming an astronaut or going to Hogwarts but their parents don't send them to school wearing space helmets or robes. If the child isn't yet capable of describing in detail why Ben 10 is the greatest show on earth then they're not capable of making life-altering decisions.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A lot of children also toy with the idea of becoming an astronaut or going to Hogwarts but their parents don't send them to school wearing space helmets or robes. If the child isn't yet capable of describing in detail* why Ben 10 is the greatest show on earth* then they're not capable of making life-altering decisions.



These children don't exist. You've finally snapped, man. Before you could at least make sense.


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## PapayaShark (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> A lot of children also toy with the idea of becoming an astronaut or going to Hogwarts but their parents don't send them to school wearing space helmets or robes. If the child isn't yet capable of describing in detail why Ben 10 is the greatest show on earth then they're not capable of making life-altering decisions.



Being transsexual is not a choice you dimwit.


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## Hinalle K. (Jun 25, 2013)

Has there ever been a young FtM transgender?

It seems parents are much less likely to turn their little girls into boys if they see them playing video-games or other "boyish" activities.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Has there ever been a young FtM transgender?
> 
> It seems parents are much less likely to turn their little girls into boys if they see them playing video-games or other "boyish" activities.



Nah, I think there are just as many tomboys. I mean, no offense to them or anything, but I've seen my share of butch young ladies. Wouldn't be surprised if one of them had as understanding parents as Coy.


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## PapayaShark (Jun 25, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Has there ever been a young FtM transgender?
> 
> It seems parents are much less likely to turn their little girls into boys if they see them playing video-games or other "boyish" activities.



There was a 7-8 year old boy on Tyra Banks show. Cute kid c: There was also 8-9 year old on a documentary, cant remember what it was called though.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Only people who listen to sociologists thing gender doesn't equate to sex. You know, the same people that gave us such wonderful things as political correctness and affirmative action.


Psychologists, dumbass. Gender identity isn't sociology, it's psychology.


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## Sparklepaws (Jun 25, 2013)

Okay then... thread went to hell. Let me put something straight:

*1.* Gender identity, and sexual orientation, are not choices. This means that if a child is *-intelligent and self aware-*, they can observe their preferences and make decisions (even if those decisions may change later due to mental development). That being said, this may be pushed by the parents, I don't know. The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't be a topic in which we simply say, "Oh, they're not old enough to understand".

*2.* In the case that this child is indeed simply too young to understand, so what? Let them explore the possibility and learn from it one way or another. If they grow up to be transgendered, at least that won't be fucked up by the people who told them they weren't as a child. Children are curious and need to be allowed to expose themselves to life.


Seriously, there's no need to make such a fuss about this story. It's a good thing because the kid will be allowed to pursue their interests and develop who they want to be, not what the world deems required. They'll probably grow up to be a lot better than most of us.


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## CannonFodder (Jun 25, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Has there ever been a young FtM transgender?


It's just higher rate of mtf than ftm is all.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm more surprised there are 6 year olds who have had sex changes. I'm not sure how a 6 year old makes an informed choice like that? 

That's a more concerning thing to my mind, although I'm glad about the ruling because forbidding bathroom use is just rather silly.



Sparklepaws said:


> Okay then... thread went to hell. Let me put something straight:
> 
> *1.* Gender identity, and sexual orientation, are not choices. This means that if a child is *-intelligent and self aware-*,  they can observe their preferences and make decisions (even if those  decisions may change later due to mental development). That being said,  this may be pushed by the parents, I don't know. The point I'm trying to  make is that it shouldn't be a topic in which we simply say, "Oh,  they're not old enough to understand".
> 
> ...




Serious medical concerns. 

Having a sex change can be very dangerous or may go wrong, and if a child does decide they've made the wrong decision, sex change operations are not always reversible. 

I think a much healthier approach for children is to teach them that there's nothing wrong with them for identifying as another gender and that they shouldn't need to feel pressured to go under the knife to make their physical body reflect this identification, especially when they're far too young to appreciate the long term impacts or medical complications that could ensue.


*
Edit, for clarification is she transgendered as in, believing she is truly female, or surgically altered? My initial comments assumed the latter, but I'm not so sure now. *


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm more surprised there are 6 year olds who have had sex changes. I'm not sure how a 6 year old makes an informed choice like that?
> 
> That's a more concerning thing to my mind, although I'm glad about the ruling because forbidding bathroom use is just rather silly.
> 
> ...



Oh god, no. I believe she hasn't had any sort of surgery or hormones, her parents just let her live as a girl. She is fuckin' 6, still.


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## Zydala (Jun 25, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> *Edit, for clarification is she transgendered as in, believing she is truly female, or surgically altered? My initial comments assumed the latter, but I'm not so sure now. *



Not even legally possible in the US for her to be surgically altered.
-

I think what confuses me in this thread is that everyone thinks that the family of the girl is just indulging their kid on their whims and somehow they won this fight to let them continue to do so? This went through state courts, you know? Which means that they wouldn't have even have humored the case for a minute if it was some strange eccentric family letting their kid play pretend. Child psychologists and doctors had to go up and make statements for this. They had to say "yes this child clearly shows signs of body dysphoria and Yes that is a thing for six year-olds". I'm just saying, it's not like there isn't a leg for them to stand on here.

The thing is we're all probably projecting what we knew about ourselves at 6 to make our conclusions on what she can or cannot understand about herself and that's not necessarily correct. We're all individuals that figure out our identities at different times in our life. My uncle knew he was gay when he was five; I knew I liked girls when I was about 12. Is my experience more 'legitimate' because I was older for some reason? Because we both ended up gay.

Yes it's definitely okay to be a little weary of young children going through phases; we're all aware of how impressionable they can be. But for this age I promise that no kid under proper doctor supervision is going under a knife and getting surgery; it's actually illegal until you're an adult, so the most that is happening is gender roleplay and possibly hormonal supplements during puberty. Improperly trained psychologists are not allowed to assess a child as transgender unless they are specifically trained for gender roles. It's shown that children who are allowed to explore their identity safely are much less regretful about their choices, feel much more confident, and are much less likely to attempt suicide (almost half of transgender individuals will try some time in their life). Basically the medical community has come to the conclusion that the earlier you can help them, the better.

*TL;DR: No one in this thread even bothered to read the Wikipedia article and started spewing unsupported, reactive B.S. everywhere on a legitimate condition and I am disappointed.*


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## Sparklepaws (Jun 25, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm more surprised there are 6 year olds who have had sex changes. I'm not sure how a 6 year old makes an informed choice like that?
> 
> That's a more concerning thing to my mind, although I'm glad about the ruling because forbidding bathroom use is just rather silly.
> 
> ...



Yeah if she was going through surgery I wouldn't agree. Like I said, I believe that children should be allowed to explore the world in ways that will help them discover who they are. There's nothing wrong with letting her decide she's transgender, but allowing her to have an operation this early would be too extreme.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Zydala said:


> Not even legally possible in the US for her to be surgically altered.
> -
> 
> I think what confuses me in this thread is that everyone thinks that the family of the girl is just indulging their kid on their whims and somehow they won this fight to let them continue to do so? This went through state courts, you know? Which means that they wouldn't have even have humored the case for a minute if it was some strange eccentric family letting their kid play pretend. Child psychologists and doctors had to go up and make statements for this. They had to say "yes this child clearly shows signs of body dysphoria and Yes that is a thing for six year-olds". I'm just saying, it's not like there isn't a leg for them to stand on here.
> ...



Exactly. This isn't some phase, no respectable judge would rule in their favor if it was.
(Not all of us were saying that though :v)


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## Fallowfox (Jun 25, 2013)

Sparklepaws said:


> Yeah if she was going through surgery I wouldn't agree. Like I said, I believe that children should be allowed to explore the world in ways that will help them discover who they are. There's nothing wrong with letting her decide she's transgender, but allowing her to have an operation this early would be too extreme.



I misinterpreted the story, my fault.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Pretty sure any type of surgery like that is allowed on a child unless she was born with both genitals. Even then I think it's up to the discretion of the parents. I'm not sure though. But still wouldn't involve any hormone therapy.


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## Judge Spear (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Psychologists, dumbass. Gender identity isn't sociology, it's psychology.



...The utter concise bluntness. 
lol


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## Fallowfox (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Pretty sure any type of surgery like that is allowed on a child unless she was born with both genitals. Even then I think it's up to the discretion of the parents. I'm not sure though. But still wouldn't involve any hormone therapy.



My assumption becomes more and more stupid the more I think about it.


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## Zydala (Jun 25, 2013)

Icky said:


> Exactly. This isn't some phase, no respectable judge would rule in their favor if it was.
> (Not all of us were saying that though :v)



Haha I know not everyone in here was being dumb, I was just very passionate at the time of writing :V


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## Foxweard (Jun 25, 2013)

It has to be diagnosed by a professional for them to be considered legitimately transgender, from my awareness, to try and ensure against it being a whim or childhood fancy. Only once such has been diagnosed and remains, will they consider her for hormones and other therapy later on into transitioning. The same would apply to a young FtM.


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## Foxdoge (Jun 25, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A lot of children also toy with the idea of becoming an astronaut or  going to Hogwarts but their parents don't send them to school wearing  space helmets or robes. If the child isn't yet capable of describing in  detail why Ben 10 is the greatest show on earth then they're not capable  of making life-altering decisions.



Identifying as a girl when you're biologically a boy at the age of  six isn't really a life-altering decision.  It can be undone. If the  child were to, however, get a transectomy, or start taking estrogen  supplements, then yes, it would be life-changing. But seeing as you need  to be a consenting individual to make such decisions, and others cannot  make them for you...  Do you see where I'm going with this?

Also Ben 10 sucks. GET MAD.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Zydala said:


> Haha I know not everyone in here was being dumb, I was just very passionate at the time of writing :V



It's okay, FAF is srs bsns after all.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Icky said:


> It's okay, FAF is srs bsns after all.



I was thinking about making a rant about this, but then I realised the irony.


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## Ozriel (Jun 25, 2013)

I don't know what's going on here and I am still re-reading a few posts.
I am 12 and what is this?


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> I was thinking about making a rant about this, but then I realised the irony.



What, a rant on FAF about how some people say FAF isn't worth ranting over? Nah.


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## Willow (Jun 25, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> I don't know what's going on here and I am still re-reading a few posts.
> I am 12 and what is this?


From what I've gathered, FAF knows fuck all about how gender identity works. Or they can't read. I'm not sure.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Icky said:


> What, a rant on FAF about how some people say FAF isn't worth ranting over? Nah.



Nope, a rant on how everyone is too srs about bsns. Then I realised making a srs rant about srs bsns would open my delicate psyche to scorn and ridicule.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> I don't know what's going on here and I am still re-reading a few posts.
> I am 12 and what is this?



Dumb people don't get that not everybody in the world functions exactly as they do.



Willow said:


> From what I've gathered, FAF knows fuck all about how gender identity works. Or they can't read. I'm not sure.



Furries aren't known for their understanding. Or reading.


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## SiriusWolf (Jun 25, 2013)

Foxdoge said:


> Identifying as a girl when you're biologically a boy at the age of  six isn't really a life-altering decision.  It can be undone. If the  child were to, however, get a transectomy, or start taking estrogen  supplements, then yes, it would be life-changing. But seeing as you need  to be a consenting individual to make such decisions, and others cannot  make them for you...  Do you see where I'm going with this?
> 
> Also Ben 10 sucks. GET MAD.



I have to disagree. Transgenderism can't be undone it's not intentional. You probably brainwash the kid out of it but why? There's nothing wrong about letting a child be who they really are. I believe it's not a choice and they are going to be that way from birth till death. It's like telling a gay person they don't know they're gay and they shouldn't identify as such. Would you think it's ok to force a homosexual child to not be gay? cause it's the same situation.


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## Heliophobic (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm all for transsexual rights and shit but... is it really that big of a deal? Like, truly.



SiriusWolf said:


> There's nothing wrong about letting a child be who they really are.



Fuck you, I never got to be a dinosaur when I was a kid.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> I'm all for transsexual rights and shit but... is it really that big of a deal? Like, truly.



It sets a legal precedent for future cases. Other than that, no.


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## Willow (Jun 25, 2013)

SiriusWolf said:


> I have to disagree.


Not necessarily. Gender identity isn't a choice true but it's not a totally life altering decision since I can easily just say I'm a boy if I physically pass a one regardless of what I identify as internally. No one will know unless I want them to know. It's not comfortable and I guess eventually you'll stop wanting to live like that because it's damaging but it can be done and undone.


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## Heliophobic (Jun 25, 2013)

Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?

I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.


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## Icky (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.



Maybe because the latter are usually batshit crazy? I dunno, that's actually a good point.


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## Ozriel (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.



I don't think that all of FAF has a problem with transgender folk, except the ones that are drama-mongerers. 
Though the latter when confronted are typically unhinged to the point of unsettling.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.



Because gender is a social construction, it's just in our culture it's a very rigid concept. There are cultural, historical, and even religious precedents for it. Identifying as a different sex is a different matter and something I still don't fully understand tbh, identifying as another species is just ridiculous. The only time it could be acceptable is in a religious context.


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## Willow (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.


There's a big difference between feeling you born as the wrong gender and genuinely believing you're a wolf. One's a matter of not fitting into the role you were "assigned" by some stupid social construct essentially and the other isn't really. 

Unless it's like some deeply rooted spiritual thing, but even then, those guys just dress like their spirit animal. They don't go around growling at people and acting like wolves. And then you get people who believe they're really robots and stuff and just..no. 

So I guess what it really comes down to one is thought to be more of a biological/social thing and the others who believe they're some other species (and act as such) because they really connect with them tend to be delusional.


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## Foxdoge (Jun 25, 2013)

SiriusWolf said:


> I have to disagree. Transgenderism can't be undone it's not intentional. You probably brainwash the kid out of it but why? There's nothing wrong about letting a child be who they really are. I believe it's not a choice and they are going to be that way from birth till death. It's like telling a gay person they don't know they're gay and they shouldn't identify as such. Would you think it's ok to force a homosexual child to not be gay? cause it's the same situation.



I think you misinterpreted what I meant.  Completely.

Not once did I say that they should try to convince the child otherwise.  I merely stated that you should let them experiment with gender if they would like to; don't discourage it. If they still identify similarly when they're grown up? No harm done.  If they, however, do not identify similarly when they're grown up? Well, still no harm done.  The only harm that can be done is by denying them expression, or by allowing them to go through with a transectomy or hormone therapy at such an early age.

When I was referring to it as "not a life-altering decision", what I meant was that in the long run, it is nothing that cannot be undone should the child's outlook of their gender change.  Hormone therapy and surgery, however, cannot be undone.


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## Zabrina (Jun 25, 2013)

Well, I was gonna say that's great with a happy face, but it seems that this has already turned into a rant-thread.


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## Foxdoge (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.



Transgender individuals usually don't disagree with the fact that they are biologically one or the other; they're not crazy.  Gender and sex are two separate constructs; those whose genders differ from their sex might prefer to identify as their gender over their sex, but they still do not deny their sex, though bringing it up (which is completely uncalled for, especially after they have told you their gender and asked that you refer to them as such) might make them uncomfortable, and rightfully so.

In any case, the reason FAF throws a shitfit when people identify as wolves, and not when they identify as another gender, is because, to be blunt, thinking you're a wolf stuck in the body of a human is ridiculous.  There is no equivalent to gender for species, as species isn't a societal construct like gender is.  If you identify as a different species, you're either mentally ill, or you're an excessively speshul snowflayk.


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## Zydala (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.



Like everyone says, gender is socially constructed. Example: some southeast asian tribes and communities actually have THREE recognized genders. Intersex individuals and men that show feminine tendencies would be put under those, depending on the community. Even Middle Eastern communities have them. this means that people can easily not feel like they belong in their born "construct" since the subject is so malleable.

As for people who say they're actually a wolf or a dragon or something... well... I find it interesting that we're technically the only species that can suffer from that sort of dysphoria, aided by our concept of "self" and our overly-complex social construct. I personally feel like those people may suffer something similar to what we think of as body dysphoria but I think it probably stems from something greater, like a loathing of association with humanity or something. But I don't think there's enough information or research on anything like that for me to make an educated opinion.


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## PapayaShark (Jun 25, 2013)

Gender is not a social construct, but gender roles is. If we didn't have genders in our society, Id still hate my body. I would still feel trapped. Because we would still have a male and female bodies and hormones, and our bodies would still fuck up sometimes.


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## Dreaming (Jun 25, 2013)

Holy shit I couldn't even dress myself when I was six. Mega 'grats to her, any progress is good progress


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

Honestly, I think that when some furfag claims to be a wolf in a human's body and screams "PERSECUTION", it's a bit of a slap in the face to transgender people.


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## Willow (Jun 25, 2013)

PapayaShark said:


> Gender is not a social construct, but gender roles is. If we didn't have genders in our society, Id still hate my body. I would still feel trapped. Because we would still have a male and female bodies and hormones, and our bodies would still fuck up sometimes.


But if you never knew the physical associations with being a boy, you'd never know that having certain parts made you a boy. That's what's basically meant by gender being a social construct. 

Sex isn't a social construct though.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Machine said:


> Honestly, I think that when some furfag claims to be a wolf in a human's body and screams "PERSECUTION", it's a bit of a slap in the face to transgender people.



Imagine it. A transgender person is explaining how hard it can be sometimes, then a furfag puts a comforting hand on his shoulder and says "I know _exactly_ how you feel". I think the cringe would make my guts implode.



Willow said:


> But if you never knew the physical associations with being a boy, you'd never know that having certain parts made you a boy. That's what's basically meant by gender being a social construct.



I wonder if sex changes would be so common (relatively speaking) if gender wasn't treated as biological fact? It will be interesting to see if the numbers rise or fall with changing attitudes to being transgendered.


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> Imagine it. A transgender person is explaining how hard it can be sometimes, then a furfag puts a comforting hand on his shoulder and says "I know _exactly_ how you feel". I think the cringe would make my guts implode.


I would straight up punch somebody before my guts imploded as well.


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## Willow (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> Imagine it. A transgender person is explaining how hard it can be sometimes, then a furfag puts a comforting hand on his shoulder and says "I know _exactly_ how you feel". I think the cringe would make my guts implode.


I would probably just punch them and then whisper "no, I don't think you really do".



> I wonder if sex changes would be so common (relatively speaking) if gender wasn't treated as biological fact? It will be interesting to see if the numbers rise or fall with changing attitudes to being transgendered.


At the very least the motivation behind getting a sex change would be different.


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## Distorted (Jun 25, 2013)

That's cool I guess. But I feel that having someone so young dealing with this type of dilemma a bit wrong. This is something people usually deal with when their older. But then they are people who realize their orientations just as early, so I suppose that doesn't hold up. I just hate the kid had to go through all that.


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## PapayaShark (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> I wonder if sex changes would be so common (relatively speaking) if gender wasn't treated as biological fact? It will be interesting to see if the numbers rise or fall with changing attitudes to being transgendered.



There are transsexual people who didn't know the difference between the gender roles when they were kids, who still knew they were born in the wrong body at that age. I don't think the numbers would change. Just the people who change because of gender roles, and not beause their mind doesnt match their bodies.


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## AlexInsane (Jun 25, 2013)

Willow said:


> I would probably just punch them and then whisper "no, I don't think you really do".



Now, see, that's just plain rude! I bet you never have to worry about being in a bus and going past a park and feeling an insane urge to get out and start peeing on EVERYTHING, or about the social repercussions of sniffing people's butts as a way of saying hello.

You just don't understand the suffering we go through. It's truly painful.


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## Zydala (Jun 25, 2013)

PapayaShark said:


> There are transsexual people who didn't know the difference between the gender roles when they were kids, who still knew they were born in the wrong body at that age.



Wow did they live in a bubble? I'm not trying to be mean seriously, but like, there's a difference in being taught gender roles and observing gender roles too. Your parents letting you play with trucks instead of barbies or vice versa doesn't mean anything in the end when you can still observe your parents acting in their gender roles. you still subconsciously perceive that there's a difference and desire to be one or the other. I think your example applies best to the difference between gender and sex; in this case they can be okay expressing a different gender or skewing gender roles (social construct) but still feel physically wrong (physical biological traits). Gender roles only play so much of a role; some people feel fine transitioning so far but some do need surgery reassign their sex.


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## SiriusWolf (Jun 25, 2013)

Foxdoge said:


> I think you misinterpreted what I meant.  Completely.
> 
> Not once did I say that they should try to convince the child otherwise.  I merely stated that you should let them experiment with gender if they would like to; don't discourage it. If they still identify similarly when they're grown up? No harm done.  If they, however, do not identify similarly when they're grown up? Well, still no harm done.  The only harm that can be done is by denying them expression, or by allowing them to go through with a transectomy or hormone therapy at such an early age.
> 
> When I was referring to it as "not a life-altering decision", what I meant was that in the long run, it is nothing that cannot be undone should the child's outlook of their gender change.  Hormone therapy and surgery, however, cannot be undone.



Well then i read that post in the wrong context. I wouldn't condone surgery or hormone supplements for any child that should be strictly for grown adults who understand the ramifications.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Saliva said:


> Out of curiosity, how come FAF is generally alright with people identifying as one gender when they physically are not but throw a shitstorm when people identify as wolves (for example) when they physically are not?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't see a real difference.


I was wondering which dumbass would bring it up.

Gender and sex may be mismatched because of biological development within the womb that would reveal itself over time. Though the fact remains that, male or female, we are still humans.

NO HUMAN IS BORN A WOLF, CAT, OR WHAT HAVE YOU and there is absolutely no reason for them to say "I'm really a wolf trapped in a human's body" because THAT IS NOT HOW BIOLOGY WORKS.

Tell me, would you consider sex with an animal the same thing as sex with a human? No? Then why would you assume that someone with gender identity issues similar to someone who thinks they're a dog?


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Tell me, would you consider sex with an animal the same thing as sex with a human?


There are people who think this.

They're all fucking crazy.


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## Falaffel (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> I was wondering which dumbass would bring it up.
> 
> Gender and sex may be mismatched because of biological development within the womb that would reveal itself over time. Though the fact remains that, male or female, we are still humans.
> 
> ...


This makes me want to genetically engineer dog-cocks and dragon-pussies on humans.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

And as per the standard, we're onto the topic of dogfuckery. So much for an interesting thread.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Zydala said:


> Wow did they live in a bubble? I'm not trying to be mean seriously, but like, there's a difference in being taught gender roles and observing gender roles too. Your parents letting you play with trucks instead of barbies or vice versa doesn't mean anything in the end when you can still observe your parents acting in their gender roles. you still subconsciously perceive that there's a difference and desire to be one or the other. I think your example applies best to the difference between gender and sex; in this case they can be okay expressing a different gender or skewing gender roles (social construct) but still feel physically wrong (physical biological traits). Gender roles only play so much of a role; some people feel fine transitioning so far but some do need surgery reassign their sex.


I feel that's a little bit insulting to those with divorced families or those living with single parents as there's literally no specific gender role there.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> I feel that's a little bit insulting to those with divorced families or those living with single parents as there's literally no specific gender role there.



That's assuming the child is isolated from everyone but the parent. A child can pick up about gender roles from anyone.


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## Falaffel (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> And as per the standard, we're onto the topic of dogfuckery. So much for an interesting thread.


Er..
Ahem..
So despite how in the fuck she is trangendered I say good for her.
...
I think.
I'm still not 100% why this was a big deal.


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## Machine (Jun 25, 2013)

As for gender roles, all children should aspire to be like Teddy Roosevelt.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> That's assuming the child is isolated from everyone but the parent. A child can pick up about gender roles from anyone.


At a young age the child is more than likely going to spend more time with the parent. I don't really see where children can even pick them up other than at home.



Falaffel said:


> I'm still not 100% why this was a big deal.


Because maybe people will stop killing other people for using the god damned bathroom


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> At a young age the child is more than likely going to spend more time with the parent. I don't really see where children can even pick them up other than at home.



Everywhere! You're right, young children spend more time with their parents. They'll go everywhere the parent does and observe how people behave in these places. Eventually they'll see things enough times to draw conclusions, like shopping is something women do or men cut the grass and take out the bins.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> Everywhere! You're right, young children spend more time with their parents. They'll go everywhere the parent does and observe how people behave in these places. Eventually they'll see things enough times to draw conclusions, like shopping is something women do or men cut the grass and take out the bins.


. . .

I guess I was the only one left at home

I feel like more of a freak now ;~;


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## SiriusWolf (Jun 25, 2013)

Children pick up on alot more than we think. I mean it is how we all learned and if a child can learn to talk just from observation they're taking in alot of info. They're designed to do it. Hell i've had my half sister and brother quote some things i said that i never thought they'd remember lol.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> . . .
> 
> I guess I was the only one left at home
> 
> I feel like more of a freak now ;~;



Ah don't feel bad. I was raised by my granda for the first six years, the only things I learned were men stood about smoking and women worked unseen in factories. A solid base from which to make all my decisions about gender.


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> Ah don't feel bad. I was raised by my granda for the first six years, the only things I learned were men stood about smoking and women worked unseen in factories. A solid base from which to make all my decisions about gender.


I mainly lived with my mother. I grew up staying inside and playing video games and/or draw or if I went outside, I would ride my bike around the neighborhood, or trade Pokemon cards with one of my friends. I never understood anything about gender roles until I was forced into it when I hit puberty.

Then it was all "wear make-up", "go clothes shopping", "get a purse", "be girly".

Now being in a fairly neutral environment, my mind was full of fuck when that was introduced.


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## Zydala (Jun 25, 2013)

Yeah Aleu I wasn't really trying to ignore any specific household set-up, the plural on the 'parents' was not necessarily intentional. I don't necessarily think single parent households will have any real skew to them anyway; I was raised by my single mom the majority of my childhood and I still hated makeup and clothes even though she loved them 

In any case my point was even the most isolated child with caretakers that go out of their way to avoid gender roles and stereotyping will be exposed to the workings of the world outside the nucleus of the household. Did you get to watch TV as a kid? Did family and friends come and visit? Did you go outside and witness kids playing or adults working? There's so many subtleties and subconscious behaviors that both genders express and internalize that you would really, really have to isolate a child from when they were born for them not to pick up any idea of gender whatsoever.


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> I mainly lived with my mother. I grew up staying inside and playing video games and/or draw or if I went outside, I would ride my bike around the neighborhood, or trade Pokemon cards with one of my friends. I never understood anything about gender roles until I was forced into it when I hit puberty.
> 
> Then it was all "wear make-up", "go clothes shopping", "get a purse", "be girly".
> 
> Now being in a fairly neutral environment, my mind was full of fuck when that was introduced.



Childhood itself is fairly neutral, then hormones come and adults tell us to do this/don't do that. I think it's more we start thinking in terms of gender because people told us to rather than any other reason.

If I had to describe my childhood I'd call it gender reversed. Women did all the manual labour and men fed and looked after me. To this day I cannot abide a women in the kitchen.

And did you ever get a Charizard card I never got one


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## Aleu (Jun 25, 2013)

Zydala said:


> In any case my point was even the most isolated child with caretakers that go out of their way to avoid gender roles and stereotyping will be exposed to the workings of the world outside the nucleus of the household. Did you get to watch TV as a kid? Did family and friends come and visit? Did you go outside and witness kids playing or adults working? There's so many subtleties and subconscious behaviors that both genders express and internalize that you would really, really have to isolate a child from when they were born for them not to pick up any idea of gender whatsoever.


TV probably influenced more on furry than it did on gender roles. (For me anyway)
I did see kids playing but I don't understand how that is relevant to gender roles. We all played the same games.



Seekrit said:


> And did you ever get a Charizard card I never got one


Holographic and Rocket Charizard ;3


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## Seekrit (Jun 25, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Holographic and Rocket Charizard ;3



FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU- I will give you a shiny Zapdos and Blastoise for your Charizard.

Actually come to think of it (and on-topically somehow), the Pokemon animu may partly be responsible for why I only trust female doctors. Trust 'em with yer electric mouse, trust 'em with yer life.


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## Inciatus (Jun 25, 2013)

zyalda said:
			
		

> Did you get to watch TV as a kid?


Not much for me. A bit of magic school bus and wheel of fortune.


Seekrit said:


> Childhood itself is fairly neutral, then hormones come and adults tell us to do this/don't do that. I think it's more we start thinking in terms of gender because people told us to rather than any other reason.
> 
> If I had to describe my childhood I'd call it gender reversed. Women did all the manual labour and men fed and looked after me. To this day I cannot abide a women in the kitchen.


Similar here. Men do pretty much all the cooking. Though that is largely due to my mother being incapable of cooking so my father has done most of the cooking for years when he was home (which wasn't very often especially when I was younger during which we ate a lot of poorly cooked food). I make lots of various pastries.



> And did you ever get a Charizard card I never got one


Maybe


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## PapayaShark (Jun 26, 2013)

Zydala said:


> Wow did they live in a bubble? I'm not trying to be mean seriously, but like, there's a difference in being taught gender roles and observing gender roles too. Your parents letting you play with trucks instead of barbies or vice versa doesn't mean anything in the end when you can still observe your parents acting in their genderoles. you still subconsciously perceive that there's a difference and desire to be one or the other. I think your example applies best to the difference between gender and sex; in this case they can be okay expressing a different gender or skewing gender roles (social construct) but still feel physically wrong (physical biological traits). Gender roles only play so much of a role; some people feel fine transitioning so far but some do need surgery reassign their sex.



I think it was part living sheltered and part, living in a place where nobody really followed gender roles. I dont fucking know, havent asked that much. 

But there are "female" and "male" brains. Men and women have different brains and think differently. A transman has a brain that is closer to that of a cis man, and a transwoman has a brain thats closer to a cis woman. This has been proven by brain scanning. The brain and body can develop differently by being exposed to the wrong sex hormones in different weeks. 

So if we were to abolish gender, there would still be people born with the wrong wired brain, and thus we would still have transsexual people. 

But then again Im "truscum" an believe that being transsexual is a medical problem.


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## Portia's #1 Fan (Jun 26, 2013)

I say good for her! Anyone who is cisgendered and has the gall to dis someone that is transgender needs to get a clue. Think about what it would feel like if your gender identity, one of the most basic things about you, is ripped apart at birth. That is what it is like for those that are trans. People that dis them aren't very bright.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

Portia's #1 Fan said:


> I say good for her! Anyone who is cisgendered and has the gall to dis someone that is transgender needs to get a clue. Think about what it would feel like if your gender identity, one of the most basic things about you, is ripped apart at birth. That is what it is like for those that are trans. People that dis them aren't very bright.



nope.jpg


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## Lomberdia (Jun 26, 2013)

My friend would be happy to know he can use the girl bathroom now since he plays female damn near 24/7. Just use the trans-gender discrimination card and get what he wants. Don't know why its a big deal, can't use one bathroom, use the other one. A kid gotta use the potty, that's all the kid was thinking about. Seems more like the parent want their 15 mins of fame and stir the pot up for attention. 

Just because you don't like what you was born as doesn't mean you was meant to be something else. Some friends and family tease me saying I'm the whitest black person they know, do i feel I don't mix well with other black people? yep. Doesn't mean that I'm not black nor male. If i go out and have me skin color changed to look like I'm white, does that make me white? no. I'm just a black guy with bleached white skin now. Why does changing what's between you legs magically change your true gender? You was born male, you're male, trade your guy parts for girl parts? You're still genetically male. No amount of chemicals and drugs will change what you was born as.

I'm fine with the whole "if you don't like your body, change it" but the reason people change their gender, skin color, whatever is because they don't like their body. Its a whole self-image/esteem issue. And not everyone switch gender teams because they feel icky on the inside. Many people stop mid-change just to be a shemale just for the sex. They like the cock and boob combo. If those people really feel like they was meant to be born as some kinda half twisted chemical creature, then they got more messed up than some simple body image issue.

That's my take on it.


----------



## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

Lomberdia said:


> My friend would be happy to know he can use the girl bathroom now since he plays female damn near 24/7. Just use the trans-gender discrimination card and get what he wants. Don't know why its a big deal, can't use one bathroom, use the other one. A kid gotta use the potty, that's all the kid was thinking about. Seems more like the parent want their 15 mins of fame and stir the pot up for attention.
> 
> Just because you don't like what you was born as doesn't mean you was meant to be something else. Some friends and family tease me saying I'm the whitest black person they know, do i feel I don't mix well with other black people? yep. Doesn't mean that I'm not black nor male. If i go out and have me skin color changed to look like I'm white, does that make me white? no. I'm just a black guy with bleached white skin now. Why does changing what's between you legs magically change your true gender? You was born male, you're male, trade your guy parts for girl parts? You're still genetically male. No amount of chemicals and drugs will change what you was born as.
> 
> ...



Wow that's the biggest post of ignorance I have ever seen. Folks with different skin colors don't have different mentalities whereas male brains and female brains operate differently. Sex is not the same thing as gender. Gender is psychological. Sex is biological. Yes, the two can be mismatched otherwise we wouldn't have trans folk in the first place.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

> Wow that's the biggest post of ignorance I have ever seen. Folks with different skin colors don't have different mentalities whereas male brains and female brains operate differently. Sex is not the same thing as gender. Gender is psychological. Sex is biological. Yes, the two can be mismatched otherwise we wouldn't have trans folk in the first place.



I'm highly skeptical of anything coming out of the ivory towers of the psychiatric industry, especially after hearing about the crap in the DSM V


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## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm highly skeptical of anything coming out of the ivory towers of the psychiatric industry, especially after hearing about the crap in the DSM V


Just because they haven't been able to figure out what the shit is wrong with you doesn't make them incorrect. It just makes you FUBAR :V


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Just because they haven't been able to figure out what the shit is wrong with you doesn't make them incorrect. It just makes you FUBAR :V



Har har.

But seriously these are people who think caffeine addiction is something that needs psychiatric evaluation and drug treatment. I can't take them seriously anymore.


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## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Har har.
> 
> But seriously these are people who think caffeine addiction is something that needs psychiatric evaluation and drug treatment. I can't take them seriously anymore.


You do realize that caffeine IS addictive, right?


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 26, 2013)

As a guy who used to wear a dress, lemme tell you...

Deciding which bathroom to use may seem trivial but not in that moment when nature calls. 

That's why I never drank a lot during that stage of my life.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 26, 2013)

Aleu said:


> You do realize that caffeine IS addictive, right?



His comment didn't dispute that; it was a statement about treatment of the addiction in the context of 'the apa over diagnose/pathologise', which is frankly rather likely. 

Thankfully the Apa _has_ removed transgender from their list of pathologies.


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## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> His comment didn't dispute that; it was a statement about treatment of the addiction in the context of 'the apa over diagnose/pathologise', which is frankly rather likely.
> 
> Thankfully the Apa _has_ removed transgender from their list of pathologies.


Why is it assumed that people can't be seriously addicted to an addictive substance? It's far more likely that TA is overreacting and is grasping at straws to paint psychology as illegitimate because he disagrees with it.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 26, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Why is it assumed that people can't be seriously addicted to an addictive substance? It's far more likely that TA is overreacting and is grasping at straws to paint psychology as illegitimate because he disagrees with it.



No, it's because psychology is TA's kryptonite. He can't fight, so he denies it. Whenever he must face defeat, TA's tactic is to ignore or discredit. 

It'd make a cool villain attribute really.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 26, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Why is it assumed that people can't be seriously addicted to an addictive substance? It's far more likely that TA is overreacting and is grasping at straws to paint psychology as illegitimate because he disagrees with it.



Whatever view of TA you take, the over-pathology that the APA is responsible for is notorious.

 The number of disorders classified has exploded in recent decades, but the scientific justification, treatment of and classification of those disorders hasn't caught up in many cases.



Butterflygoddess said:


> No, it's because psychology is TA's  kryptonite. He can't fight, so he denies it. Whenever he must face  defeat, TA's tactic is to ignore or discredit.
> 
> It'd make a cool villain attribute really.



I'm not sure what point TA is out to prove by it, but he happens to be right that current Psychiatric guidelines over-pathologise. 

This doesn't mean all psychiatry is bad; that's throwing the baby out with the bath water, but there is a tendency to label behaviours as diseases which later turn out not to be diseases at all under more rigorous scientific inspection.


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## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Whatever view of TA you take, the over-pathology that the APA is responsible for is notorious.
> 
> The number of disorders classified has exploded in recent decades, but the scientific justification, treatment of and classification of those disorders hasn't caught up in many cases.
> 
> ...


No it doesn't make psychology or anything related to it bad, though we're still trying to figure things out. Expecting them to be absolutely perfect with every diagnosis when mental disorders are tricky as hell is ridiculous.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 26, 2013)

Aleu said:


> No it doesn't make psychology or anything related to it bad, though we're still trying to figure things out. Expecting them to be absolutely perfect with every diagnosis when mental disorders are tricky as hell is ridiculous.



Perfection isn't expected. The current state of things is extremely poor, particularly in some circles, even when the challenges that psychiatry faces are taken into account. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22570857


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

TA thinks psychiatry is, will be, and always has been, used to disrupt and harm people by lauding pseudoscience over proper medicine. Psychiatry in America is a system designed by drug companies, pushed by useless doctors, and subsidized by the insurance industry to get as many people on detrimental medications as possible by stigmatizing them with a "mental disorder." Caffeine is addicting (I get the headaches myself, drinking caffeinated beverages like a fish drinks water) but it is not a mental disorder, you don't need a prescription. It's a biological cause and effect that isn't even related to psychological side effects. Addiction to anything is best handled by physicians and clinics, not shrinks.

What I really hate about psychiatry in America is, because everything is a disorder, it works to the detriment of people with ACTUAL disorders. Look how many of the mass shooters we've seen went to psychiatrists and were written off with a wave of the hand and SSRIs which only exacerbated their problems. Leaving aside my personal opinion that transsexuality IS an untreated (or poorly treated through extensive, invasive, costly, permanent, dangerous surgery and hormone therapy) it's obvious that psychiatry does more harm than good.

Also where are the bloody feminists on this one? Psychiatry was used by the patriarchy for decades to undermine women's rights. God, you'd think they could make themselves useful for once.


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## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Perfection isn't expected. The current state of things is extremely poor, particularly in some circles, even when the challenges that psychiatry faces are taken into account.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22570857


See, people are bitching about it but I haven't really seen a case where someone is actually just grieving and were pushed into being diagnosed for depression.



TeenageAngst said:


> *TA thinks psychiatry is, will be, and always has been, used to disrupt and harm people by lauding pseudoscience over proper medicine.* Psychiatry in America is a system designed by drug companies, pushed by useless doctors, and subsidized by the insurance industry to get as many people on detrimental medications as possible by stigmatizing them with a "mental disorder." Caffeine is addicting (I get the headaches myself, drinking caffeinated beverages like a fish drinks water) but it is not a mental disorder, you don't need a prescription. It's a biological cause and effect that isn't even related to psychological side effects. Addiction to anything is best handled by physicians and clinics, not shrinks.
> 
> What I really hate about psychiatry in America is, because everything is a disorder, it works to the detriment of people with ACTUAL disorders. Look how many of the mass shooters we've seen went to psychiatrists and were written off with a wave of the hand and SSRIs which only exacerbated their problems. Leaving aside my personal opinion that transsexuality IS an untreated (or poorly treated through extensive, invasive, costly, permanent, dangerous surgery and hormone therapy) it's obvious that psychiatry does more harm than good.
> 
> Also where are the bloody feminists on this one? Psychiatry was used by the patriarchy for decades to undermine women's rights. God, you'd think they could make themselves useful for once.



Well it's a good thing no one intelligent takes you seriously then :V Drinking caffeine alone isn't a mental disorder, no. However, getting massive withdrawals from it then yes you are addicted to it and can be considered a disorder if it starts affecting your every day life. Just like people can have an addiction to sex if they can't do anything that doesn't involve jacking off.


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## Icky (Jun 26, 2013)

When did my happy thread become a bathtub filled with stupid :c


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## Aleu (Jun 26, 2013)

Icky said:


> When did my happy thread become a bathtub filled with stupid :c


because we can't have nice things, Icky. Surely you remember


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## idejtauren (Jun 26, 2013)

Icky said:


> When did my happy thread become a bathtub filled with stupid :c



I'm totally stealing this for my sigature.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 26, 2013)

Aleu said:


> See, people are bitching about it but I haven't really seen a case where someone is actually just grieving and were pushed into being diagnosed for depression.
> 
> .



I think you're missing the crux, which is that whatever TA thinks, even if it's psuedo or antiscientific, he happens to be right that over pathology and over diagnosis are really big problems that the field of psychiatry is chewing over at the moment. 

Single examples of people with a diagnosis for grief don't prove much on their own. Large scale observation is necessary: "In 2010, 1 in 5 American adults was using some type of mental health medication, a 22 percent increase over the past decade"*
*http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Revision-of-psychiatric-manual-under-fire-2295555.php
*http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/240539.php

Whilst mental illness is a significant problem, medicating *one fifth* of a country's population over the course of one year really is over medicalising. This has been caused by the vast expansion in the possible illnesses you can be diagnosed with and it's why some psychiatrists think that expanding definitions of mental illness to overlap with what has formerly been considered normal behaviour is a really bad thing, because it takes the establishment further down a path they should never have gotten on in the first place.



TeenageAngst said:


> TA thinks psychiatry is, will be, and always  has been, used to disrupt and harm people by lauding pseudoscience over  proper medicine. Psychiatry in America is a system designed by drug  companies, pushed by useless doctors, and subsidized by the insurance  industry to get as many people on detrimental medications as possible by  stigmatizing them with a "mental disorder." Caffeine is addicting (I  get the headaches myself, drinking caffeinated beverages like a fish  drinks water) but it is not a mental disorder, you don't need a  prescription. It's a biological cause and effect that isn't even related  to psychological side effects. Addiction to anything is best handled by  physicians and clinics, not shrinks.
> 
> What I really hate about psychiatry in America is, because everything is  a disorder, it works to the detriment of people with ACTUAL disorders.  Look how many of the mass shooters we've seen went to psychiatrists and  were written off with a wave of the hand and SSRIs which only  exacerbated their problems. Leaving aside my personal opinion that  transsexuality IS an untreated (or poorly treated through extensive,  invasive, costly, permanent, dangerous surgery and hormone therapy) it's  obvious that psychiatry does more harm than good.
> 
> Also where are the bloody feminists on this one? Psychiatry was used by  the patriarchy for decades to undermine women's rights. God, you'd think  they could make themselves useful for once.




Having read your comment in more detail, I am inclined to agree with its essence. Far too many people are being diagnosed with trivial or non extant disorders and this is to the detriment of people who really do have appreciable disorders which require more attention than the quandary of defining when an infant's tantrums become pathological [or even need to be medicated]. 

I can't say I agree that identifying as a different gender is a disorder, or with specific examples about mass murderers, but the general case that far too many normal people are perceived as mentally ill is true in my view.


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## SiriusWolf (Jun 26, 2013)

double post


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## SiriusWolf (Jun 26, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> TA thinks psychiatry is, will be, and always  has been, used to disrupt and harm people by lauding pseudoscience over  proper medicine. Psychiatry in America is a system designed by drug  companies, pushed by useless doctors, and subsidized by the insurance  industry to get as many people on detrimental medications as possible by  stigmatizing them with a "mental disorder." Caffeine is addicting (I  get the headaches myself, drinking caffeinated beverages like a fish  drinks water) but it is not a mental disorder, you don't need a  prescription. It's a biological cause and effect that isn't even related  to psychological side effects. Addiction to anything is best handled by  physicians and clinics, not shrinks.
> 
> What I really hate about psychiatry in America is, because everything is  a disorder, it works to the detriment of people with ACTUAL disorders.  Look how many of the mass shooters we've seen went to psychiatrists and  were written off with a wave of the hand and SSRIs which only  exacerbated their problems. Leaving aside my personal opinion that  transsexuality IS an untreated (or poorly treated through extensive,  invasive, costly, permanent, dangerous surgery and hormone therapy) it's  obvious that psychiatry does more harm than good.
> 
> Also where are the bloody feminists on this one? Psychiatry was used by  the patriarchy for decades to undermine women's rights. God, you'd think  they could make themselves useful for once.



I agree that  over diagnosis and over medicating is a big problem with psychiatric  medicine it can also save lives. Without medication and therapy i'd be  dead or in jail. For those that suffer from real disorders and illnesses  the system can be a god send. It's the only place some people can turn  to for help. After being in a psych ward i can attest there are people  that without proper care couldn't function or lead a normal life. 80  years ago a guy like me would be lobotomized and locked in a room. I'm  just glad psychiatry has made progress in the last 20 years. It's not  perfect but it does save alot of people.


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## Troj (Jun 26, 2013)

I think we've already had this exact conversation at least three times before, right?


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah we have. People say I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater by disregarding all of psychiatry but I'm not forcing anyone not to participate in their charade.



> However, getting massive withdrawals from it then yes you are addicted to it and can be considered a disorder if it starts affecting your every day life. Just like people can have an addiction to sex if they can't do anything that doesn't involve jacking off.



There's a lot to be said for "willpower." A lot of people try to shirk that self responsibility but it's the only thing that keeps people away from whatever they're addicted to in the long run. Seriously, how do you think the few successful ex-heroin addicts stay off smack? It isn't through medications the doctors throw at them (replacing one addiction with another) or just getting over the physical issues at a clinic (even one where proper medicine is practiced), those people go straight back to whatever fucked them up in the first place. The ones that stave off their addiction for good have something in their life fundamentally change that requires them to be clean. Soldiers coming home from Vietnam were hooked on narcotics and got clean so they could return to the states, and they did it cold turkey. It's not a psychiatric disorder that can be undone with meds or therapy, it's a disorder in their very lives.



> I can't say I agree that identifying as a different gender is a disorder



To use you're asinine terminology, another "gender" no, another "sex" yes.


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## Toshabi (Jun 26, 2013)

Icky said:


> When did my happy thread become a bathtub filled with stupid :c



The moment the words "Transgendered" "6" "Year" and "Old" were used within the title.


I wonder how fucked up the parents are.


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## Icky (Jun 26, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> To use you're asinine terminology, another "gender" no, another "sex" yes.



Nobody identifys as a different sex. Sex, being defined by what dangles between your legs, is not up for interpretation or confusion. You have a dick, or you have a vagina. 

Now, if one identifies as a different _gender_ than what they are sexed as, they can have operations to better match their gender.



Toshabi said:


> The moment the words "Transgendered" "6" "Year" and "Old" were used within the title.
> 
> I wonder how fucked up the parents are.



Probably not half as fucked up as yours were.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

> Now, if one identifies as a different _gender than what they are sexed as, they can have operations to better match their gender._



That's a disorder right there. They take a healthy body and insist something is wrong with it that needs surgical intervention.


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## Icky (Jun 26, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> That's a disorder right there. They take a healthy body and insist something is wrong with it that needs surgical intervention.



So is wanting liposuction a disorder? Tattoos? Piercings?


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## Bipolar Bear (Jun 26, 2013)

Welp, 1 more win for the LGBT community and a bit of my faith in humanity has been restored. Which I'm expecting to have it quickly taken away within a matter of hours of browsing the news and interweb. Nevertheless, now with Kevin Rudd as our Prime Minister, hopefully I too can get married in the near future.



Icky said:


> Probably not half as fucked up as yours were.



Icky, don't mind Toshabi. It's just his thing, and most of us love him for it. :3


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

Icky said:


> So is wanting liposuction a disorder? Tattoos? Piercings?



Only if the person walking into the tattoo parlor says "I'm a biker born in a college student's body."


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## Icky (Jun 26, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Only if the person walking into the tattoo parlor says "I'm a biker born in a college student's body."



So you actually believe wanting to change your body is a mental disorder, huh? Why don't you go talk to pretty much any woman, about that? After all, they had perfectly healthy and functional ears and still felt like poking holes in them to better suit their mental image of themselves.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 26, 2013)

Get a loada this guy here.


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## Toshabi (Jun 26, 2013)

Icky said:


> Probably not half as fucked up as yours were.



My parents weren't nice enough to let me dress like a pretty princess who was born with a slim jim. They wouldn't let me be beautiful.


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## MochiElZorro (Jun 26, 2013)

Didn't something exactly like this happen a year or so ago?


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## Willow (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> That's a disorder right there. They take a healthy body and insist something is wrong with it that needs surgical intervention.


A disorder is something that keeps you from functioning properly in every day life. Transgenderism in itself isn't a mental disorder but the gender dysphoria that comes along with it is technically a mental disorder. 

The majority of people who undergo gender reassignment do so willingly because they know it'll help them so it's not really like anyone is insisting they do it.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 27, 2013)

> A disorder is something that keeps you from functioning properly in every day life. Transgenderism in itself isn't a mental disorder but the gender dysphoria that comes along with it is technically a mental disorder.



And you wonder why I think psychiatry is a crock of shit. Man, comments like this make people from New Jersey sound intelligent.


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## Willow (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> And you wonder why I think psychiatry is a crock of shit. Man, comments like this make people from New Jersey sound intelligent.


Well I guess if you don't even try to understand what's being said then yeah. Anything will sound stupid.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> That's a disorder right there. *They take a healthy body and insist something is wrong with it that needs surgical interventio*n.



By this measure a great deal of 'normal' behaviours are disorders, including many forms of ritual scaration, cosmetic dentistry, breast implants etc. I'm not sure what the description would be when you insist other people require surgery when they don't, because that is certainly commonplace in some countries too. 

Whilst gender dismorphia obviously has some very extreme consequences and risks in contrast to a lot of other body modifications at least it's undertaken with informed consent, rather than because it's the done thing or reflective of a perceived and false standard of beauty.


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## CaptainCool (Jun 27, 2013)

I think it is a terrible idea to label GID as a disorder because gender in itself is nothing but a social construct. The only reason why these people are suffering in the first place is because they don't fit into the tight roles that society puts us into.
If anything you could call it a rare disease because they can't identify with their biological sex which is something we have treatments for today.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 27, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> I think it is a terrible idea to label GID as a disorder because gender in itself is nothing but a social construct. The only reason why these people are suffering in the first place is because they don't fit into the tight roles that society puts us into.
> If anything you could call it a rare disease because they can't identify with their biological sex which is something we have treatments for today.



In a society that had as few gender roles as possible, you may still have individuals identifying as the opposite gender to their sex. I suspect that would be likely if gender identity is innate.

Whilst gender roles exacerbate things and add loads and loads of confusion to the mix, I am not sure they are the whole story. 

I would be reluctant to call being transgendered a disorder though anyway.


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## CaptainCool (Jun 27, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> In a society that had as few gender roles as possible, you may still have individuals identifying as the opposite gender to their sex. I suspect that would be likely if gender identity is innate.
> 
> Whilst gender roles exacerbate things and add loads and loads of confusion to the mix, I am not sure they are the whole story.
> 
> I would be reluctant to call being transgendered a disorder though anyway.



Somehow and somewhere there is something wrong with trans people, yeah. Otherwise they wouldn't need medical treatment (by which I mean the whole transitioning process of course).
My point is that society is turning this into a way bigger issue than it needs to be.
Things are getting better in that regard though. Gender roles are becoming less strict, people are becoming more supportive and understanding.
The only problem now are those conservatives who keep saying that "if you were born with a penis you are a man and if you were born with a vagina you are a woman! >:C"


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> And you wonder why I think psychiatry is a crock of shit. Man, comments like this make people from New Jersey sound intelligent.



You know, if you have nothing better to do than shitpost on these forums, the next ban will be permanent. I'm quite sure you won't be missed by many.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 27, 2013)

Glad to know I jumped in here at just the right time. Continue please.


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## Lomberdia (Jun 27, 2013)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Glad to know I jumped in here at just the right time. Continue please.


*Thread dies* Darn you just missed it. Better luck next time, kiddo


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 27, 2013)

On a serious note so as not to give Arshes a stroke over here, why is it everyone operates under the assumption that gender roles are bad? I've heard this from *everyone* who considers themselves a progressive or a feminist or a LGBQT ally or whatnot and it's never been explained to me, it's always just been assumed that they're evil.


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## Seekrit (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> On a serious note so as not to give Arshes a stroke over here, why is it everyone operates under the assumption that gender roles are bad? I've heard this from *everyone* who considers themselves a progressive or a feminist or a LGBQT ally or whatnot and it's never been explained to me, it's always just been assumed that they're evil.



Not bad, just outdated. Shit needs updated for the 21st century.


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## Toshabi (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> On a serious note so as not to give Arshes a stroke over here, why is it everyone operates under the assumption that gender roles are bad? I've heard this from *everyone* who considers themselves a progressive or a feminist or a LGBQT ally or whatnot and it's never been explained to me, it's always just been assumed that they're evil.




Gender roles are abused nowadays. Here at my job, we have women who bitch that women at the job aren't treated similar to the males at the office, and yet they'll bitch and moan to our boss that someone is leaving the toilet seat up in the unisex restroom and that men should be required to put down the toilet seat after they use that restroom.




Spoiler:  that restroom



I put the seat up every time I pass by that restroom




Much like a lot of things in our lovely modern day society, gender, sexuality and social statuses are nothing more than tools that can be used and abused at one's convenience.


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## Seekrit (Jun 27, 2013)

Toshabi said:


> I put the seat up every time I pass by that restroom



If I didn't already love THE TOSH, this would make me love THE TOSH.


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## Azure (Jun 27, 2013)

toshabi you are a 6 year old tranny


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## Symlus (Jun 27, 2013)

In regards to gender roles, that shit is outdated. The days where men were the sole bread-winners are long gone. Women are putting in as much effort as males. The only thing that I think is unequal in society would be rape and similar actions, and society's reactions to rape- and molestation- victims. However, in all other regards, women are equal to men, and I'm starting to get nervous around Feminists. What will they do next? Turn males into stud- Erm. Actually, I retract my statement. 

In my opinion, women are equal to males, but some blow it a little out of perspective.


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## Toshabi (Jun 27, 2013)

Azure said:


> toshabi you are a 6 year old tranny




Sadly, I can only be like this in your heart and eyes. I'll never be a beautiful pony princess. Ever.



Lev1athan said:


> In regards to gender roles, that shit is outdated. The days where men were the sole bread-winners are long gone. Women are putting in as much effort as males. The only thing that I think is unequal in society would be rape and similar actions, and society's reactions to rape- and molestation- victims. However, in all other regards, women are equal to men, and I'm starting to get nervous around Feminists. What will they do next? Turn males into stud- Erm. Actually, I retract my statement.
> 
> In my opinion, women are equal to males, but some blow it a little out of perspective.




This is true, however, the people who don't recognize that women are equal to men (in some retrospects) are women themselves, i.e. just feminists.


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## Seekrit (Jun 27, 2013)

Lev1athan said:


> In regards to gender roles, that shit is outdated. The days where men were the sole bread-winners are long gone. Women are putting in as much effort as males. The only thing that I think is unequal in society would be rape and similar actions, and society's reactions to rape- and molestation- victims. However, in all other regards, women are equal to men, and I'm starting to get nervous around Feminists. What will they do next? Turn males into stud- Erm. Actually, I retract my statement.
> 
> In my opinion, women are equal to males, but some blow it a little out of perspective.



There's also the reverse-progress stuff. Women fucking DESTROY men when it comes to divorce and who gets the childrens.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Jun 27, 2013)

Willow said:


> A disorder is something that keeps you from functioning properly in every day life. Transgenderism in itself isn't a mental disorder but the gender dysphoria that comes along with it is technically a mental disorder.
> 
> The majority of people who undergo gender reassignment do so willingly because they know it'll help them so it's not really like anyone is insisting they do it.


 I think gender disorders in varies people can be partly society's fault. People have to be a different gender to express themselves a certain way so society can understand where they are coming from. Basically they don't feel comfortable having certain emotions/feelings as their biological gender, so they have to transition in order to feel comfortable expressing themselves and not be ashamed by society. Let's say a grown man crying, which society will make fun of and call him a big baby, that man will want to identify with the opposite gender to be able to have that emotion without society making him feel ashamed or embarrassed, since women are generally more emotional, just saying >_>. I don't know. It varies with people.


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## Toshabi (Jun 27, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> There's also the reverse-progress stuff. Women fucking DESTROY men when it comes to divorce and who gets the childrens.




I believe they get 50% of everything you own the instant you say "I do" on that wedding alter. 

And people wonder why no one wants to get married.



gl;hf gay people. I can't believe you seriously want to go through with the marriage process.


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## Symlus (Jun 27, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> There's also the reverse-progress stuff. Women fucking DESTROY men when it comes to divorce and who gets the childrens.


And suddenly, males are degraded to dogs. Which, in the ex-wife's eyes, couldn't be truer. 


Toshabi said:


> This is true, however, the people who don't recognize that women are equal to men (in some retrospects) are women themselves, i.e. just feminists.


That's who I was referring to, yes.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 27, 2013)

The thing I don't get with gender roles is people seem to think they were written by Satan and anyone who adheres to them, willingly or not, is a moron. Furthermore if you suggest them you're also a moron. Society has gender roles but that's cause they're historically a pretty safe bet. No one in America is FORCING people into X Y or Z roles, society just kinda hands out suggestions. "Men shouldn't wear skirts." Why? Because when you're pulling a transmission or riding a motorcycle or soldering wire or trying to drive a clutch with boots on or shoveling dirt or hauling logs or anything else guys tend to do, usually spontaneously, they get in the way/are dangerous. It's also why women have adopted jeans and slacks over the past few decades, it's a more sensible garment.


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## Azure (Jun 27, 2013)

Toshabi said:


> Sadly, I can only be like this in your heart and eyes. I'll never be a beautiful pony princess. Ever.


shhhhhhhh

its okay

*pets softly*

youll always be a princess to me


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## Seekrit (Jun 27, 2013)

Toshabi said:


> I believe they get 50% of everything you own the instant you say "I do" on that wedding alter.



Pretty much that. I won't rest until we have EQUALITY, none of this imbalance shit. We should all be equally as nothing under the hammer of law.

JUSTICE ET LIBERTÃ‰S


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 27, 2013)

It's called a prenuptial agreement.


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## Seekrit (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> It's called a prenuptial agreement.



JUSTICE. ET. LIBERTÃ‰ 030


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## Inciatus (Jun 27, 2013)

TMV said:
			
		

> I think gender disorders in varies people can be partly society's fault. People have to be a different gender to express themselves a certain way so society can understand where they are coming from. Basically they don't feel comfortable having certain emotions/feelings as their biological gender, so they have to transition in order to feel comfortable expressing themselves and not be ashamed by society. Let's say a grown man crying, which society will make fun of and call him a big baby, that man will want to identify with the opposite gender to be able to have that emotion without society making him feel ashamed or embarrassed, since women are generally more emotional, just saying >_>. I don't know. It varies with people.



I don't think so. There are people who will feel uncomfortable in their body regardless of gender roles. The idea of men wanting to cry so wanting to become female is silly. I can cry if I am sad. John Boehner is the speaker of the house and not a day goes by when he isn't crying his eyes out.


			
				secretfur said:
			
		

> _There's also the reverse-progress stuff. Women fucking DESTROY men when it comes to divorce and who gets the childrens._


It is quite difficult for men to get custody of the children even in cases of abuse by the mother.


Toshabi said:


> I believe they get 50% of everything you own the instant you say "I do" on that wedding alter.
> 
> And people wonder why no one wants to get married.


50% of marriages end in divorce. That is pretty good considering the other 50% end in death.


> gl;hf gay people. I can't believe you seriously want to go through with the marriage process.


They want to have the ability to be miserable like everyone else.


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## Icky (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> The thing I don't get with gender roles is people seem to think they were written by Satan and anyone who adheres to them, willingly or not, is a moron. Furthermore if you suggest them you're also a moron. Society has gender roles but that's cause they're historically a pretty safe bet. No one in America is FORCING people into X Y or Z roles, society just kinda hands out suggestions. "Men shouldn't wear skirts." Why? Because when you're pulling a transmission or riding a motorcycle or soldering wire or trying to drive a clutch with boots on or shoveling dirt or hauling logs or anything else guys tend to do, usually spontaneously, they get in the way/are dangerous. It's also why women have adopted jeans and slacks over the past few decades, it's a more sensible garment.



...Right, because somebody who defies gender roles in clothing will totally be a buff lumberjack/welder/construction worker.

You really don't know how this works, do you?


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 27, 2013)

Icky said:


> ...Right, because somebody who defies gender roles in clothing will totally be a buff lumberjack/welder/construction worker.
> 
> You really don't know how this works, do you?



NOW who's defining gender roles?  Plus none of those things I mentioned are things a "buff" blue collar man would be doing necessarily. They're all things I was recently asked to do on a moment's notice, and I'm neither mechanically competent nor buff.

But you're kinda right, skinny dudes who are androgynous at the best of times tend to be the norm when it comes to breaking gender roles. I have a hard time imagining one of those people doing something practical, like working on house wiring or replacing a faucet or welding a muffler or hauling a truck full of wood for a stove or raking stones in the driveway or using a chainsaw on a downed tree or the myriad other things they'll invariably have to rely on their wives/other more competent men/expensive professionals for.

It's getting to the point I'm beginning to suspect the hatred of gender roles stems from a combination of compensating for a lack of practical know-how and a lowering of expectations.


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## Willow (Jun 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I think gender disorders in varies people can be partly society's fault. People have to be a different gender to express themselves a certain way so society can understand where they are coming from. Basically they don't feel comfortable having certain emotions/feelings as their biological gender, so they have to transition in order to feel comfortable expressing themselves and not be ashamed by society. Let's say a grown man crying, which society will make fun of and call him a big baby, that man will want to identify with the opposite gender to be able to have that emotion without society making him feel ashamed or embarrassed, since women are generally more emotional, just saying >_>. I don't know. It varies with people.


You're kind of on the right track but not close enough. There are varying degrees of how dysphoria affects people but sensitivity doesn't really make people want to transition. It has more to do with how you feel about yourself as a person. 



TeenageAngst said:


> The thing I don't get with gender roles is people seem to think they were written by Satan and anyone who adheres to them, willingly or not, is a moron. Furthermore if you suggest them you're also a moron. Society has gender roles but that's cause they're historically a pretty safe bet. No one in America is FORCING people into X Y or Z roles, society just kinda hands out suggestions. "Men shouldn't wear skirts." Why? Because when you're pulling a transmission or riding a motorcycle or soldering wire or trying to drive a clutch with boots on or shoveling dirt or hauling logs or anything else guys tend to do, usually spontaneously, they get in the way/are dangerous. It's also why women have adopted jeans and slacks over the past few decades, it's a more sensible garment.


Gender roles aren't 100% bad but when you have someone telling you all the time your worth is only in the kitchen, well you get the idea.


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## Icky (Jun 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> NOW who's defining gender roles?  Plus none of those things I mentioned are things a "buff" blue collar man would be doing necessarily. They're all things I was recently asked to do on a moment's notice, and I'm neither mechanically competent nor buff.
> 
> But you're kinda right, skinny dudes who are androgynous at the best of times tend to be the norm when it comes to breaking gender roles. I have a hard time imagining one of those people doing something practical, like working on house wiring or replacing a faucet or welding a muffler or hauling a truck full of wood for a stove or raking stones in the driveway or using a chainsaw on a downed tree or the myriad other things they'll invariably have to rely on their wives/other more competent men/expensive professionals for.
> 
> It's getting to the point I'm beginning to suspect the hatred of gender roles stems from a combination of compensating for a lack of practical know-how and a lowering of expectations.



Ugh, damn, never mind. I only replied to this one post of yours today and my head already hurts.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 27, 2013)

> Gender roles aren't 100% bad but when you have someone telling you all the time your worth is only in the kitchen, well you get the idea.



Yes but no one ever says anything good about them either. If a person thinks that a woman's place legit is in the kitchen then that's not a problem with gender roles, that's a problem with people using gender roles to support their bigoted positions which they would hold society be damned. I'm concerned though because as time goes on our workforce is getting less practical. Men used to be the doers and women used to be the maintainers, but now they're not doing or maintaining so much cause they're lazy or uninterested and they're using the breakdown of evil gender roles as an excuse to not have practical life skills like those I mentioned. One would think women would be encouraged to pick up the slack in the doing department considering how stigmatized gender roles are, so they'd be all over hardware and automotive stores and ready to tackle getting those spark plugs changed, but they're not. In fact if anything they shun that kinda stuff even more now than they used to, eschewing traditional feminine areas of practicality such as knowing how to sew, cook, clean, etc and not taking on any male ones. I wouldn't have a problem with a person who didn't know how to clean a bathtub if they at least knew how to unclog the drain, but people today can't do either. On the other hand, I am noticing a lot more men at least trying to be practical around the house, learning to cook and keeping clean apartments and stuff.

My main point I guess is everyday stuff needs to get done, and gender roles were a division of labor that mostly made sense, and still does if handled loosely. Now though people don't know how to do those things cause gender roles are bad so that stuff isn't getting done, hence the ever growing skilled labor gap and the astronomical prices to get simple household things professionally repaired.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Yes but no one ever says anything good about them either. If a person thinks that a woman's place legit is in the kitchen then that's not a problem with gender roles, that's a problem with people using gender roles to support their bigoted positions which they would hold society be damned. I'm concerned though because as time goes on our workforce is getting less practical. Men used to be the doers and women used to be the maintainers, but now they're not doing or maintaining so much cause they're lazy or uninterested and they're using the breakdown of evil gender roles as an excuse to not have practical life skills like those I mentioned. One would think women would be encouraged to pick up the slack in the doing department considering how stigmatized gender roles are, so they'd be all over hardware and automotive stores and ready to tackle getting those spark plugs changed, but they're not. In fact if anything they shun that kinda stuff even more now than they used to, eschewing traditional feminine areas of practicality such as knowing how to sew, cook, clean, etc and not taking on any male ones. I wouldn't have a problem with a person who didn't know how to clean a bathtub if they at least knew how to unclog the drain, but people today can't do either. On the other hand, I am noticing a lot more men at least trying to be practical around the house, learning to cook and keeping clean apartments and stuff.
> 
> My main point I guess is everyday stuff needs to get done, and gender roles were a division of labor that mostly made sense, and still does if handled loosely. Now though people don't know how to do those things cause gender roles are bad so that stuff isn't getting done, hence the ever growing skilled labor gap and the astronomical prices to get simple household things professionally repaired.



What the fuck? 

TA...this is more of your acid trip ranting I think. You don't know shit about women or men doing anything across america only *your* tiny bubble...and even then that's through _*your*_ eyes. 

I hardly ever laugh at posts...but, my god, that was brazen.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

My experience tends to dictate how I interpret the world around me, yes. So tell me, oh wise one, how many people do YOU know that are self sufficient?


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> My experience tends to dictate how I interpret the world around me, yes. So tell me, oh wise one, how many people do YOU know that are self sufficient?



Quite a fucking few. Everyone I work with above the age of 20 can pay their own bills and shit even! It's like adults exist. Sure you have deadbeats out there, but the majority of people are working hard to get by.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> Quite a fucking few. Everyone I work with above the age of 20 can pay their own bills and shit even! It's like adults exist. Sure you have deadbeats out there, but the majority of people are working hard to get by.



My room mate paid his bills and such as well, that didn't mean he know jack about how to prepare for hurricane Sandy when it hit. I remember having to lead him and my other room mate out to Lowe's and give them a crash course.

I lived in the Philly area then moved to the Richmond area, both of which were filled with trademen. It's a completely foreign concept to me to pay someone else gobs of money to do household work you can do yourself with a free afternoon. Why would I pay someone to do something when I can learn to do it myself?


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## Toshabi (Jun 28, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> Quite a fucking few. Everyone I work with above the age of 20 can pay their own bills and shit even! It's like adults exist. Sure you have deadbeats out there, but the majority of people are working hard to get by.



Self sustaining young adults UNITE! .o/


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> My room mate paid his bills and such as well, that didn't mean he know jack about how to prepare for hurricane Sandy when it hit. I remember having to lead him and my other room mate out to Lowe's and give them a crash course.
> 
> I lived in the Philly area then moved to the Richmond area, both of which were filled with trademen. It's a completely foreign concept to me to pay someone else gobs of money to do household work you can do yourself with a free afternoon. Why would I pay someone to do something when I can learn to do it myself?



I know your ball game, TA. We aren't chatting about tradesmen or how weak the common male has become in your eyes in another one of your desperate attempts to prove your masculinity this go round. 

You bring up some of that Hurricane Sandy shit in response to being a sustainable adult? One of the worst storms ever vs. holding down a job and actually providing for oneself and others? 

That's fucking weak, man. I expect better next time.


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## Aleu (Jun 28, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> That's fucking weak, man. I expect better next time.


I don't


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

E-prep ain't part of being a responsible adult? Whatever you say. I'm not just talking about tradesmen either, my dad built 2 additions onto our house and he was a technical writer sitting in a cubicle. Why pay other people to do what you can do or learn to do yourself for cheaper? There's a lot more to life than paying bills and keeping yourself fed, at least where I'm at. You gotta keep your house warm, and for that you need seasoned wood unless you're running expensive electricity or oil. You got trees falling on your property all the time and you need a chainsaw for that. You gotta fix shoddy wiring, replace car parts in your driveway, haul tools and objects in/with trucks, keep the driveway from washing away, replace leaking faucets, mow a few acres on a riding mower, etc.

But of course this is isn't something everyone has to deal with so therefore it's pointless to consider these valuable skills, or something. It has nothing to do with masculinity either, my freakin' hairdresser was telling me about how she was redoing the ignition system in an old Chevy she had.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> E-prep ain't part of being a responsible adult? Whatever you say. I'm not just talking about tradesmen either, my dad built 2 additions onto our house and he was a technical writer sitting in a cubicle. Why pay other people to do what you can do or learn to do yourself for cheaper? There's a lot more to life than paying bills and keeping yourself fed, at least where I'm at. You gotta keep your house warm, and for that you need seasoned wood unless you're running expensive electricity or oil. You got trees falling on your property all the time and you need a chainsaw for that. You gotta fix shoddy wiring, replace car parts in your driveway, haul tools and objects in/with trucks, keep the driveway from washing away, replace leaking faucets, mow a few acres on a riding mower, etc.
> 
> But of course this is isn't something everyone has to deal with so therefore it's pointless to consider these valuable skills, or something. It has nothing to do with masculinity either, my freakin' hairdresser was telling me about how she was redoing the ignition system in an old Chevy she had.



So you know people who can do those things yet claim all the 'murricans are getting soft? 

What is even the hell? 

On on a sidenote, I'll actually be happy if all gender roles were done away with. They serve no purpose really as individuals can surpass and deny such expectations. Fuck gender in general I say. I look at a human as a person before a man or a woman anyway.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

> So you know people who can do those things yet claim all the 'murricans are getting soft?



I know a few people who can, people who, like myself, are endlessly baffled by those they're surrounded by who are incapable of taking care of themselves. For instance, I had to change my friend's drum brakes because they seized and he didn't know how to unstick them. Guy didn't have a car for MONTHS because of this issue.



> On on a sidenote, I'll actually be happy if all gender roles were done away with. They serve no purpose really as individuals can surpass and deny such expectations. Fuck gender in general I say. I look at a human as a person before a man or a woman anyway.



Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.


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## Seekrit (Jun 28, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I hardly ever laugh at posts...but, my god, *that was brazen*.



I wish. Now _that_ dude knew how to troll.


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## Lomberdia (Jun 28, 2013)

I kinda get what TA was meaning when he said something along the line of roles are being left open because some women look down on housework and refuse to compensate by at least doing something to replace the lack of duty. I've seen many people who don't do the usual man/woman thing and are actually pretty good doing the opposite role's work. I'm fine with that and it's great. 

My problem is when the person decides they don't want to do anything at all. Today's world supports the lazy and helpless though. Why should anyone know how to use a hammer when they can just get someone else to do the work for them. IMO people should know a little from both roles, the cooking/cleaning and the repairing/upkeep of the house. There really isn't a reason other than physical or legit mental disabilities that should keep someone from knowing basic skills to keep their home and appliances up and running. Don't know how any recipes? use a cookbook (assuming you know how to follow simple directions). The internet has so much info anyone that isn't a complete lazy bump on a log can do almost whatever they wanted. That's just the thing, people don't want to. 

Guess I'm just against all-around general uselessness and using "I don't want to do housework/yardwork" just makes it worse. And gender roles are very strong in retail and hospitality jobs. Very few places I've been to in my town, chicago, and chambana have male waiters or male housekeepers. Why? Because females are generally more welcomed to fit the servicing role and image vs men who usually are put in warehouses. Roles exist to help figure out where people skills fall under and help determine where you belong work-wise.  

I know nothing about cars but I know I can find out what I need to know via internet or my uncle. I'm the housecleaner of the family men. I fit more in the 'female' role more than male but I know enough on both sides to keep myself afloat with minimal assistance unless it's something big. Like replacing a toilet or re-tiling the shower, but I'm a lazy bump on a log when it comes to that lol


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

Well, it's not just that it doesn't get done, it's that when it is done it's usually by hiring someone. Hiring a professional for mundane tasks is a waste of their talents, adds to their workload, and drives the labor costs sky high for people who legitimately need them. Hiring a plumber to fix a leaky, easily accessible pipe could be keeping him from replacing the water heater of someone who's been waiting for days, it all depends how the work orders are sent out. Plus, it's extremely expensive compared to the DIY cost most of the time. Not to mention people who hire professionals usually view the tradesmen as servants or sketchy people they don't like traipsing through their homes. People talk about HVAC technicians like they talk about carnies. Mike Rowe did a fabulous speech on how the trades are being marginalized in America and how practical talents aren't valued anymore, in spite of what the market indicates.


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## Inciatus (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Well, it's not just that it doesn't get done, it's that when it is done it's usually by hiring someone. Hiring a professional for mundane tasks is a waste of their talents, adds to their workload, and drives the labor costs sky high for people who legitimately need them. Hiring a plumber to fix a leaky, easily accessible pipe could be keeping him from replacing the water heater of someone who's been waiting for days, it all depends how the work orders are sent out. Plus, it's extremely expensive compared to the DIY cost most of the time. Not to mention people who hire professionals usually view the tradesmen as servants or sketchy people they don't like traipsing through their homes. People talk about HVAC technicians like they talk about carnies. Mike Rowe did a fabulous speech on how the trades are being marginalized in America and how practical talents aren't valued anymore, in spite of what the market indicates.


If you claim to be so good with practical stuff and that the services are getting more expensive? Why not provide those services (and maybe you'll stop complaining so much about poverty).


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

Because I'm not a professional nor mechanically inclined. When I replaced the radiator fans on the front of my car it took 4 hours and I had parts left over. A few days ago when pulling the gascap assembly from my motorcycle the first thing I did was drop an allen wrench screw into the gastank. It took 10 minutes of fishing in gasoline with a plastic-wrapped magnet to grab it, and even then I couldn't get the assembly *completely* apart due to loctite. These are "good enough for an afternoon" skills, not marketable skills.


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## Aleu (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Because I'm not a professional nor mechanically inclined. When I replaced the radiator fans on the front of my car it took 4 hours and I had parts left over. A few days ago when pulling the gascap assembly from my motorcycle the first thing I did was drop an allen wrench screw into the gastank. It took 10 minutes of fishing in gasoline with a plastic-wrapped magnet to grab it, and even then I couldn't get the assembly *completely* apart due to loctite. These are "good enough for an afternoon" skills, not marketable skills.


And this is why you go to a professional :V


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## Inciatus (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Because I'm not a professional nor mechanically inclined. When I replaced the radiator fans on the front of my car it took 4 hours and I had parts left over. A few days ago when pulling the gascap assembly from my motorcycle the first thing I did was drop an allen wrench screw into the gastank. It took 10 minutes of fishing in gasoline with a plastic-wrapped magnet to grab it, and even then I couldn't get the assembly *completely* apart due to loctite. These are "good enough for an afternoon" skills, not marketable skills.


So what you are saying, contrary to before, you do not have skills or are mechanically inclined.


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 28, 2013)

Aleu said:


> And this is why you go to a professional :V



My car has working fans that cost half as much as the mechanic wanted, and my bike's gascap works like a charm. Sure, I didn't clean the assembly out, but 30 minutes of irritation and some PB Blaster sure beats $90 an hour + parts for the same result. There's a lot to be said for chewing gum and shoestring.



> So what you are saying, contrary to before, you do not have skills or are mechanically inclined.



I'm saying I have the skills to do what I encounter on a regular basis plus some extra, not professional level understanding of the trades. There's a huge gulf between "I work on my car" and "I'm a mechanic" in the same way there's a huge gulf between "I know how to bake" and "I'm a pastry chef."


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## Inciatus (Jun 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm saying I have the skills to do what I encounter on a regular basis plus some extra, not professional level understanding of the trades. There's a huge gulf between "I work on my car" and "I'm a mechanic" in the same way there's a huge gulf between "I know how to bake" and "I'm a pastry chef."


So basically you are at the point to just be useless to everyone.

Edit:

Why take advantage of an ability I have and could improve on into a marketable skill so I can work in an overpaid area when I could instead rant on a furry forum about being poor and the man keeping me down?


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## Mullerornis (Jun 28, 2013)

I have a fascination with transgender topics, and that this girl is now finally one step closer to equal treatment is beyond good for me, it's a triumphant moment.

BTW, transphobes should involuntarily be placed in robotic bodies that mimic people of the opposite sex.


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## Troj (Jun 28, 2013)

I'd get that kind of robot in a heartbeat!


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## Khaki (Jun 29, 2013)

Mullerornis said:


> BTW, transphobes should involuntarily be placed in robotic bodies that mimic people of the opposite sex.



Reminds me of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOp4tRm-WbI


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## TeenageAngst (Jun 30, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> So basically you are at the point to just be useless to everyone.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Why take advantage of an ability I have and could improve on into a marketable skill so I can work in an overpaid area when I could instead rant on a furry forum about being poor and the man keeping me down?



I'm still holding out that I can get work in economics somewhere, I love talking about and learning about economics too much not to pursue it. If I get my degree and find myself working at a McDonald's though then I'm signing up for a trade school.


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## Seekrit (Jun 30, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm still holding out that I can get work in economics somewhere, I love talking about and learning about economics too much not to pursue it. If I get my degree and find myself working at a McDonald's though then I'm signing up for a trade school.



Why not skip all that bullshit and go learn a trade now?


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## Falaffel (Jun 30, 2013)

Seekrit said:


> Why not skip all that bullshit and go learn a trade now?



That'd make to much sense


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## Lobar (Jun 30, 2013)

shit, guys, r/mensrights is leaking again


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## Lomberdia (Jun 30, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm still holding out that I can get work in economics somewhere, I love talking about and learning about economics too much not to pursue it. If I get my degree and find myself working at a McDonald's though then I'm signing up for a trade school.


Jobcorp is a good place for some free trade training. Went there for my CNA in st.louis. learned i suck at putting up with old people who uses the "im old" excuse to purposely make my job harder for shits (sometimes literally) and giggles. I know how to read your freaking chart....stop shitting in your pants and acting like you can't walk to the bathroom you lazy bastard.


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## FireFeathers (Jul 1, 2013)

On a transgendered level, awesome. But on a 'this is a 6 year old who is sure entirely what thier deal is"  - the hell? Do six year olds have their shit sorted at that age? I'd wait at least until hormones develope your goddamn brain before taking the official stand. Maybe that's why they were like "Uhhhh, sure whatever you say now go in the boy's line like everyone else" 

I remember eating dirt and chucking my Puppy Surprise fetuses out the window of the car, not on fighting a legal battle whether I was cis or trans when I was 6. Kids are really up on their goals nowandays. 

Again- entirely for this. It's very awesome and I'm glad the ruling happened, but it's a fucking 6 year old.  I can't help but see the soapboxy-figurehead-ness of this whole thing.


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