# Why this negativity?



## Yuka (Dec 23, 2017)

Okay, so there's this one thing that I've noticed almost instantly after I joined this forum: many people here are speaking very negative of the fandom to the point I was asking myself why they're even here in the first place. I was really surprised tbh because even though there's some drama in the german area too, I've never seen that much negativity and not from so many people.

What I'am asking is: why is that? I'm not that long in the fandom yet so maybe I'm still seeing everything through rose-colored glasses. Sure, there may be some...strange people and events happaneing (I myself already got one or two weird messages) but I don't believe that the whole fandom is _that_ awful either.​


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Dec 23, 2017)

Yuka said:


> Okay, so there's this one thing that I've noticed almost instantly after I joined this forum: many people here are speaking very negative of the fandom to the point I was asking myself why they're even here in the first place. I was really surprised tbh because even though there's some drama in the german area too, I've never seen that much negativity and not from so many people.
> 
> What I'am asking is: why is that? I'm not that long in the fandom yet so maybe I'm still seeing everything through rose-colored glasses. Sure, there may be some...strange people and events happaneing (I myself already got one or two weird messages) but I don't believe that the whole fandom is _that_ awful either.​


Well, I believe, for the most part, that most furries on here aren't negative per se. But some folks on here can be a bit grating on the old nerves. I stear clear of them. But realize too that alot of us on here just joke around alot.


----------



## -..Legacy..- (Dec 23, 2017)

It's really not, but there are the inherent personalities that try to drag everyone into their misery.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2017)

What negativity are we talking about, exactly?


----------



## Yuka (Dec 23, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> What negativity are we talking about, exactly?


I was talking about how a good amount of people here are talking about their own fandom like it's one of the worst things in existence.


----------



## -..Legacy..- (Dec 23, 2017)

Yuka said:


> I was talking about how a good amount of people here are talking about their own fandom like it's one of the worst things in existence.



There are certain evolving aspects most generally don't like, but as a whole they are a fractional minority.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2017)

Yuka said:


> I was talking about how a good amount of people here are talking about their own fandom like it's one of the worst things in existence.


A decent amount of Furries are outright degenerates. A decent amount are socially inept. Some are criminals. Some are sick of the fandom's members pretty much giving shelter to such individuals, and with good reason. Their actions and behaviour are reflecting on the rest of us.

It's more about shitty individual behaviour than the fandom itself. If they don't like being a Furry just stop being one.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Dec 23, 2017)

Yuka said:


> I was talking about how a good amount of people here are talking about their own fandom like it's one of the worst things in existence.


If you can't laugh and joke about your own interests then where's the fun in that?


----------



## Open_Mind (Dec 23, 2017)

For every person like you described, who bring negativity with them in every post, there are 10 happy to be involved in this fandom. Who love the art, the friends we've made here, supporting people new to The Forum, and participating and the games/ nonsense/ banter that show up in the posts every day. The good thing about the forum is, tomorrow will push the negative items down, while in general the more positive tend to stay at the top. 

Any diverse group of individuals, just like any family,  will have some of these folks. Don't let them keep you from enjoying your time here.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2017)

The only diversity we need is that of opinion.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 23, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> The only diversity we need is that of opinion.


Um, what?


----------



## Junkerfox (Dec 23, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> The only diversity we need is that of opinion.


Amen. More opinions more growth (God knows i got a lot of opinions)


----------



## Crimcyan (Dec 23, 2017)

Negativity? It's kinda hard not to be negative about the fandom when there is alot politics, horrible behaviour, etc going on.

It's also the internet, the internet is a hate filled place so you are going to see negativity anywhere you go. If you think its bad here check out twitter.

Also It's fun to sometimes make horrible jokes about furries, there should be no restrictions to comedy


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Um, what?


Diversity of thought. You can't truly call yourself diverse when everyone have the same views. Without diversity of thought nothing is questioned. When nothing is questioned, nothing is changed.


----------



## Astus (Dec 23, 2017)

By criticizing the Fandom in a productive way, one can slowly make it better or rather find ways to make it better for everyone. It's the same with your country, if you can't talk negatively about it, you can't find ways to make it better or let others know of the bad aspects of it. Everyone can't be happy, but hopefully they can find ways for the majority to be happy


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Dec 23, 2017)

Yuka said:


> I was talking about how a good amount of people here are talking about their own fandom like it's one of the worst things in existence.


We say it as jest. Most of us are grown enough to realize that, yeah, some of the fandom is a bit "out there". But we dont really mind. If you can't laugh at yourself, thats a problem.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 23, 2017)

As long as no one is killing people or screwing children, I don't really care what you do. The people on this thread most loudly yelling about degenerates are hypocrites because they've got plenty of stuff in their closet that they want to hide. It's like evangelicals constantly being creeps. They louder they yell about morality and hedonism, the more likely it is they're doing the same things.


----------



## Telnac (Dec 23, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Diversity of thought. You can't truly call yourself diverse when everyone have the same views. Without diversity of thought nothing is questioned. When nothing is questioned, nothing is changed.


Agreed but I wouldn’t say that’s the ONLY diversity we need. I love ethnic and cultural diversity too.

As for the OP, don’t let a few vocal malcontents discolor your view of the fandom or this forum. Most of us enjoy being furries and being on this forum.


----------



## Inkblooded (Dec 23, 2017)

just because you like something doesn't mean you're not allowed to point out flaws in it.

There are a lot of bad people in the furry fandom and a lot of serious incidents from it.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 23, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Diversity of thought. You can't truly call yourself diverse when everyone have the same views. Without diversity of thought nothing is questioned. When nothing is questioned, nothing is changed.


That's all fine, but your wording was...odd. It seemed like a comment without context, not relevant to the discussion,  and specifying that the _only_ diversity we need is diversity of thought implies, well, nothing good.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 23, 2017)

On topic, there is such a thing as self-hating Furries. Just like there can be self-hating anything else. 

Though most people you'll find who speak negatively about the fandom are really speaking about the vocal minority who give Furries a bad name and not the fandom as a whole.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> That's all fine, but your wording was...odd. It seemed like a comment without context, not relevant to the discussion,  and specifying that the _only_ diversity we need is diversity of thought implies, well, nothing good.


Yeah, should've worded it a little differently. We are one species with many different races. It is diverse, but to be able to progress socially and otherwise, we need diversity of thought, which is the most important diversity.


----------



## TheFoxFreedom (Dec 23, 2017)

Yuka said:


> Okay, so there's this one thing that I've noticed almost instantly after I joined this forum: many people here are speaking very negative of the fandom to the point I was asking myself why they're even here in the first place. I was really surprised tbh because even though there's some drama in the german area too, I've never seen that much negativity and not from so many people.
> 
> What I'am asking is: why is that? I'm not that long in the fandom yet so maybe I'm still seeing everything through rose-colored glasses. Sure, there may be some...strange people and events happaneing (I myself already got one or two weird messages) but I don't believe that the whole fandom is _that_ awful either.​


I dont know! Never saw/had something bad here


----------



## Sagt (Dec 23, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> A decent amount of Furries are outright degenerates. A decent amount are socially inept. Some are criminals. Some are sick of the fandom's members pretty much giving shelter to such individuals, and with good reason. Their actions and behaviour are reflecting on the rest of us.
> 
> It's more about shitty individual behaviour than the fandom itself. If they don't like being a Furry just stop being one.


A number of people, in general, are "degenerates," socially inept or criminals. It's really not unique to furries.

The only time I hear about this behaviour in the fandom is when it's talked about on this forum, and I've noticed that it's spoken about at a surprising frequency given how much of a non-issue it is.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Dec 23, 2017)

JackieR said:


> Thanks god I'm not a furry. I just like the porn


Well can't argue with that


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Dec 23, 2017)

I often find when someone speaks Ill of the fandom it's mostly in a self-deprecating/ ironic type of way, or those still new learning about it. That's not to say it doesn't have its fair share of problems, no, and some of them big ones. But if you choose to remain the silent minority and not say anything at all, nothing ever improves, and some matters burn out by themselves. Personally I take the more laid back approach and not add to currently existing issues, the minor ones, anyway.


----------



## Sagt (Dec 23, 2017)

Mr. Fox said:


> I often find when someone speaks Ill of the fandom it's mostly in a self-deprecating/ ironic type of way, or those still new learning about it. That's not to say it doesn't have its fair share of problems, no, and some of them big ones. But if you choose to remain the silent manority and not say anything at all, nothing ever improves, and some matters burn out by themselves. Personally I take the more laid back approach and not add to currently existing issues, the minor ones, anyway.


I can appreciate self-depreciating humour, but that's often not the type of commentary being made. More often, or at least on this forum, it goes along the lines of over-emphasizing unpleasant outliers of the fandom and pointing fingers at the supposed "degenerates," a group of furries never defined by the person who uses the word, but which it's implied that it includes all the people they aren't compatible with. 

I can concede that there is some bad behaviour in the fandom (although it's not clear that everyone is on the same page of what this includes), but it gets obnoxious to see everyone talk about this as if it's some massive aspect of the subculture. It's not, it really isn't.


----------



## Rant (Dec 23, 2017)

I think it's because unlike FA, we can be honest, abrasive and real about stuff without some whiney brats threatening to quit the fandom or kill themselves. 

We don't have to soften our criticism here.


----------



## Rant (Dec 23, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> As long as no one is killing people or screwing children, I don't really care what you do. The people on this thread most loudly yelling about degenerates are hypocrites because they've got plenty of stuff in their closet that they want to hide. It's like evangelicals constantly being creeps. They louder they yell about morality and hedonism, the more likely it is they're doing the same things.



I like you already! 
It's the funniest shit when the "Family Values" man is found to be gay/cheating/doing drugs! XD


----------



## Open_Mind (Dec 23, 2017)

For many people, receiving "honest, abrasive and real" feedback, cannot be distinguished from a personal attack. It is something I wish could be more easily taught. Unfortunately, the only way to learn it is through experience. 

If y'all call bullshit on anything I write, I'm not going to hate you for it. I'll probably thank you for providing a new perspective. I'd like to think I'm open-minded enough to take the criticism.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 23, 2017)

Open_Mind said:


> For many people, receiving "honest, abrasive and real" feedback, cannot be distinguished from a personal attack. It is something I wish could be more easily taught. Unfortunately, the only way to learn it is through experience.
> 
> If y'all call bullshit on anything I write, I'm not going to hate you for it. I'll probably thank you for providing a new perspective. I'd like to think I'm open-minded enough to take the criticism.


To be fair, you can be real and honest without being abrasive. While I agree that people can take things too seriously or personally, people can also be needlessly cruel in their "feedback".


----------



## Rant (Dec 23, 2017)

Open_Mind said:


> For many people, receiving "honest, abrasive and real" feedback, cannot be distinguished from a personal attack



You are completely right on that. What caused it I think is people trying to give feedback that's also not real feedback and reads more like a compliment in fear of offending them. (If that makes sense)  I don't critique to be an ass or attack anyone. I do it to help point out mistakes and offer ways to improve.

But God damn do some furries get all up in arms over the smallest shit. I'm glad you and the others here aren't pansy-assed idiots who need to be praised every minute or else you'll explode.


----------



## Kebechet (Dec 23, 2017)

Negativity is a valid response when you've been a part of this community for almost two decades, and have seen little more than it going downhill, rather than maturing and growing into something better. There was a time when the community was more closely knit, and worked together to make amazing things happen...like the conventions, or the group art books. Cons used to be a special, amazing thing to participate in. The community was a safer, friendlier place, and people didn't run around displaying their sexual fetishes in public at Rainfurrest, or wherever. While the degenerates are a small number, they are vocal, and they are ever present, making the community more and more...uncomfortable to be in, or associated with by the day.

I like porn as much as anyone else, but some of it is absolutely foul, and there used to be standards for artwork in the furry community. I wish there was something more like Yerf used to be. Yerf was an anthropomorphic art website that only let you create an account based on the quality of your art. I applied multiple times when I was young, and while I never got in, their critiques showed me where I needed to focus on improving my skills, and helped spur me to become a professional artist. Though my work didn't make the cut at that time....These people took the time to tell me how I could improve as an artist. While a lot of people might think that refusing artists an account based on how good their art is, is elitist... I could care less. I'm only on FA to follow artists I deem worthy of my merit anyway. Where's the difference? I know I can't be alone in wishing that the people uploading rips from games, and absolute crap would just go away. The FA front page displays almost nothing but crap even with SFW on.

Without the negativity, things will never change for the better.  The issue is the complacency in the community with letting worse people take the community in worse directions. We all should have learned in elementary school that "ignore it and they'll go away" doesn't actually work in the real world.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2017)

Kebechet said:


> Negativity is a valid response when you've been a part of this community for almost two decades, and have seen little more than it going downhill, rather than maturing and growing into something better. There was a time when the community was more closely knit, and worked together to make amazing things happen...like the conventions, or the group art books. Cons used to be a special, amazing thing to participate in. The community was a safer, friendlier place, and people didn't run around displaying their sexual fetishes in public at Rainfurrest, or wherever. While the degenerates are a small number, they are vocal, and they are ever present, making the community more and more...uncomfortable to be in, or associated with by the day.
> 
> I like porn as much as anyone else, but some of it is absolutely foul, and there used to be standards for artwork in the furry community. I wish there was something more like Yerf used to be. Yerf was an anthropomorphic art website that only let you create an account based on the quality of your art. I applied multiple times when I was young, and while I never got it, their critiques showed me where I needed to focus on improving my skills, and helped spur me to become a professional artist. Though my work didn't make the cut at that time....These people took the time to tell me how I could improve as an artist. While a lot of people might think that refusing artists an account based on how good their art is, is elitist... I could care less. I'm only on FA to follow artists I deem worthy of my merit anyway. Where's the difference? I know I can't be alone in wishing that the people uploading rips from games, and absolute crap would just go away. The FA front page displays almost nothing but crap even with SFW on.
> 
> Without the negativity, things will never change for the better.  The issue is the complacency in the community with letting worse people take the community in worse direcns. We all should have learned in elementary school that "ignore it and they'll go away" doesn't actually work in the real world.


This is a fandom, not a community. They are not synonyms, and can't be used interchangeably. This "Furry community" you speak of doesn't exist, unless you're being specific about for instance FAF or your local furmeet. Even then no one is required nor obligated to adhere to anything/anyone apart from following the rules set up by the staff and/or people in charge of an event/site/whatever. No one's in charge, there is no hierarchy let alone command structure of any kind in the fandom. There are no values, moral codes or ideology to follow/adhere to. Even then, you can't force anyone to adhere to them. There is nothing we have in common apart from being fans of anthros. It's at best an interest, hobby for some. This is a fandom, not a government or a cult.

Apart from that, I agree. This fandom's got a lot of trash in it. And that trash's actions/behaviour is being ignored by a lot of people. Which is making shit worse.


----------



## Pipistrele (Dec 23, 2017)

Kebechet said:


> Negativity is a valid response when you've been a part of this community for almost two decades, and have seen little more than it going downhill, rather than maturing and growing into something better. There was a time when the community was more closely knit, and worked together to make amazing things happen...like the conventions, or the group art books. Cons used to be a special, amazing thing to participate in. The community was a safer, friendlier place, and people didn't run around displaying their sexual fetishes in public at Rainfurrest, or wherever. While the degenerates are a small number, they are vocal, and they are ever present, making the community more and more...uncomfortable to be in, or associated with by the day.


Eeeh, even as someone who was in the fandom only for a decade or so, I mostly disagree with this line of thought. It appeared safer and friendlier mostly because it was much more local - and with increase of new members, there's always decrease in unity, that's just how every fandom works.



> I like porn as much as anyone else, but some of it is absolutely foul, and there used to be standards for artwork in the furry community. I wish there was something more like Yerf used to be. Yerf was an anthropomorphic art website that only let you create an account based on the quality of your art. I applied multiple times when I was young, and while I never got in, their critiques showed me where I needed to focus on improving my skills, and helped spur me to become a professional artist. Though my work didn't make the cut at that time....These people took the time to tell me how I could improve as an artist. While a lot of people might think that refusing artists an account based on how good their art is, is elitist... I could care less. I'm only on FA to follow artists I deem worthy of my merit anyway. Where's the difference? I know I can't be alone in wishing that the people uploading rips from games, and absolute crap would just go away. The FA front page displays almost nothing but crap even with SFW on.


Frankly, back then, the best people could hope is some crappy light pen or a good scanner, and anthro artists for the most part didn't really know how to draw good anthros, learning blindly and randomly (which is why best furry artists of the past are the "cartoony" ones like EWS or Jim Hardiman, who borrowed a lot from cartoon drawing manuals). Nowadays, we have a wide array of tools and tons of learning material, and as a result, actual quality of furry artwork significantly increased over time. So, I call BS on "there used to be standards", since majority of below-average furry artwork today is still better than some of the "best" stuff Yerf could offer at the time. I mean, back then, we considered Jack and Concession an examples of well-drawn furry artwork in webcomics, _that's_ the level we're talking about.

As for the "creating account based on quality of artwork" idea - it could work back in 90s or so, but considering how wide and all-encompassing the fandom has become, how would you control the quality anyway? Is it based on creativity? Amount of technical effort put into it? Mass appeal? What are you going to do with artists like Shenanimation, who don't have huge technical skill, but double down on charisma - like, it's not technically proficient, but it's still likeable, so is it good or bad? Or, say, artists like Repressed - would you kick them from the site for drawing farts and poops despite the fact that artwork is technically good? Speaking shortly, there's a niche for pretty much everything, from simplistic to highly professional, from cuddly-huggly to smutty-lewdy. It's not even a matter of "elitism", but of the fact that modern furry fandom is a cluster of niches, and you're not going to do any good by killing off those niches based on your specific understandings of "good and bad artwork". Back in the 90s and early 2000s, furry artwork was pretty much one big niche, and tastes were mostly similar. We already progressed past that, we don't need to decide "what's good and what's bad" for other people without asking them first.


----------



## Filter (Dec 23, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> Back in the 90s and early 2000s, furry artwork was pretty much one big niche, and tastes were mostly similar. We already progressed past that, we don't need to decide "what's good and what's bad" for other people without asking them first.



I disagree about tastes being mostly similar back in the day. If anything, artists had to be more careful about not copying other artist's styles. That meant a lot then. Nowadays, there's sort of an accepted generic furry style that anyone can draw without raising eyebrows. I like that style, and I'm even drawing more of it myself, but I do miss the variety of early 2000s furry art.

As far as the challenge of deciding "what's good and what's bad", I completely agree with you. Yerf's approach was already problematic at the time, and it would be worse now. If for no other reason than it would be cliquey and arbitrarily exclude a lot of talented artists. I never applied, but it was obvious that the application process was flawed. Plus, if you impose too many external constraints on artists, the art can become monotonous. For these and other reasons, I ended up spending more time on VCL and YNA.

What I would support, however, is another "clean" furry gallery. Maybe with a lower bar of entry than Yerf, but a place for family friendly furry artists and fans. I think there's a strong argument to be made for such a site. It would be nice to have a place to send newbies and outsiders, so they don't need eye bleach or get the wrong idea that furries are all about sex.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 23, 2017)

Rant said:


> I like you already!
> It's the funniest shit when the "Family Values" man is found to be gay/cheating/doing drugs! XD



Yeah, I've noticed there tend to be more sex offenders in places like the Bible Belt than supposedly immoral places like the west coast.


----------



## Rant (Dec 23, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> Yeah, I've noticed there tend to be more sex offenders in places like the Bible Belt than supposedly immoral places like the west coast.


I'm in the camp that believes they use religion to justify their actions. Alabama's Roy Moore is a good example. Dude is a creepy chomo for sure.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 23, 2017)

Rant said:


> I'm in the camp that they use religion to justify their actions. Alabama's Roy Moore is a good example. Dude is a creepy chomo for sure.



Yeah, I can't believe he got even as many votes as he did.


----------



## Rant (Dec 23, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> Yeah, I can't believe he got even as many votes as he did.


It was a disgusting thing to watch, worse still they interviewed people who voted for him and now I understand why Alabama is ranked so low on education....


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 23, 2017)

Rant said:


> It was a disgusting thing to watch, worse still they interviewed people who voted for him and now I understand why Alabama is ranked so low on education....



What education?


----------



## Rant (Dec 23, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> What education?


----------



## Baalf (Dec 24, 2017)

Yuka said:


> Okay, so there's this one thing that I've noticed almost instantly after I joined this forum: many people here are speaking very negative of the fandom to the point I was asking myself why they're even here in the first place. I was really surprised tbh because even though there's some drama in the german area too, I've never seen that much negativity and not from so many people.
> 
> What I'am asking is: why is that? I'm not that long in the fandom yet so maybe I'm still seeing everything through rose-colored glasses. Sure, there may be some...strange people and events happaneing (I myself already got one or two weird messages) but I don't believe that the whole fandom is _that_ awful either.​



I feel like a lot of people actually hate furries and want it to be known, so they come here and ***** about things. Most of the time they also pretend to be furries as a way to sound less bias and more intelligent. I mean, I get not liking every single thing about furries, but a lot of them act like they hate EVERYTHING about furries, which was always my issue.

Also, the whole "Degenerates" and criminals and what-not excuse has no real ground to stand on, as there's no real proof to a lot of it, in addition just because you call someone "degenerate" doesn't make it so.

Also, Yakamaru, we get it. You hate when people refer to the furry community as such. Also, a lot of the problems you flaunt aren't really problems. I'm not seeing people get away with all the horrible shit you claim to say they get away with. A lot of the times, if someone does something wrong, they're hated for it. To make matters worse, often times that kind of stuff is spread around as if that's what the fandom stands for, and if ALL furries do stuff like that. I'd argue that the thing about furries being easily forgiven doesn't have much proof, and is also reversable from non-furries.


----------



## Yuka (Dec 26, 2017)

To clarify, I don't mind people being self ironic or making contructive cristcism. But some things I've seen here seemed like the person who has postet it meant it seriously.
If people here really think the fandom goes downhill, then why are they just whining and trying to ruin everyone else's fun instead of actually giving some constructive critic?


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 26, 2017)

Yuka said:


> To clarify, I don't mind people being self ironic or making contructive cristcism. But some things I've seen here seemed like the person who has postet it meant it seriously.
> If people here really think the fandom goes downhill, then why are they just whining and trying to ruin everyone else's fun instead of actually giving some constructive critic?


You can give all the constructive criticism in the world and it wouldn't do jack shit if the people it's directed towards either doesn't receive it or they don't listen and blatantly ignore it. Time and time again these topics keeps popping up and people continue to ignore the criticism and ideas suggested and provided. At some point people just stop giving a shit and enjoy the fireworks and drama when someone shoot themselves in the foot because of willful ignorance and lack of self-awareness.

You'd think common sense was, well, common. A decent amount of this fandom's members lacks it, and self-awareness.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 26, 2017)




----------



## TheFoxFreedom (Dec 27, 2017)

JackieR said:


> Thanks god I'm not a furry. I just like the porn


Hahahahah


----------



## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Dec 28, 2017)

Because feigning happiness and good vibes gets you nowhere.
If I want to be a miserable fuck, I shall.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

Open_Mind said:


> For every person like you described, who bring negativity with them in every post, there are 10 happy to be involved in this fandom. Who love the art, the friends we've made here, supporting people new to The Forum, and participating and the games/ nonsense/ banter that show up in the posts every day. The good thing about the forum is, tomorrow will push the negative items down, while in general the more positive tend to stay at the top.
> 
> Any diverse group of individuals, just like any family,  will have some of these folks. Don't let them keep you from enjoying your time here.




That doesnt even make sense rationally or with a ratio. If you did the ratio balancing that would mean the bad people would cease to exist. They would be overrun in the foodchain of the GOOD vs EVIL thing.

Most furries are neutral. The good ones work, the neutral ones enjoy the content and party, the bad ones do bad things. And frankly Ive seen a lot of bad people.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> The only diversity we need is that of opinion.



The main reason why this topic was created is because whoever wrote this was angry that the fandom isnt the wonderland they wanted it to be. We do need more onpions and peoples accounts and stories to tell you the fandom isnt magical, its flawed because there are flawed and dangerous people in it.

I get so much hate for telling my side of what I see in the fandom. A lot of toxic things, evil people, violent people, drug problems. But as soon as you say anything bad your called a hater, a furaphobe, or a troll. This kind of zealot furry mentality is the reason why the fandom isn't an okay place for everyone. Yes some evil exists in it, vile hardCORE evil. But its a good place for those who know how to cut out or handle the bad in it. Hack the system.


Fact: the fandom is sexual. It caters to many groups: Zoophils, kinks, artists,  etc. It has many members who have done terrible things. ITs not so bad once you see it, all fandoms have some form of this issue. But we really do lack conversation and different sides of the story.


----------



## Sagt (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> The main reason why this topic was created is because whoever wrote this was angry that the fandom isnt the wonderland they wanted it to be. We do need more onpions and peoples accounts and stories to tell you the fandom isnt magical, its flawed because there are flawed and dangerous people in it.
> 
> I get so much hate for telling my side of what I see in the fandom. A lot of toxic things, evil people, violent people, drug problems. But as soon as you say anything bad your called a hater, a furaphobe, or a troll. This kind of zealot furry mentality is the reason why the fandom isn't an okay place for everyone. Yes some evil exists in it, vile hardCORE evil. But its a good place for those who know how to cut out or handle the bad in it. Hack the system.
> 
> ...


Probably because you're one of those furries who seems to feel the need to mention the shortcomings of the fandom at any opportunity possible, and then blow them out of proportion.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> Probably because you're one of those furries who seems to feel the need to mention the shortcomings of the fandom at any opportunity possible, and then blow them out of proportion.



You assume Im a furry, you are wrong.
You think I'm blowing this out of the water to be...say? 800% bigger is because is it is big. Everyone here wants to talk about only the innocent poster child of the fandom but has to realize there are big issues on a personal single human being level that many people bring to the fandom and ruin it for others.

Yes it seems big and scary, because I'm not staying silent about its issues. We cant have a progressive community if we ignore the issues time and time again. The fandom loves to think its perfect and god like, but you have proven your one of those people who doesnt like hearing the bad. How can people improve when they ignore all these issues?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> The main reason why this topic was created is because whoever wrote this was angry that the fandom isnt the wonderland they wanted it to be. We do need more onpions and peoples accounts and stories to tell you the fandom isnt magical, its flawed because there are flawed and dangerous people in it.
> 
> I get so much hate for telling my side of what I see in the fandom. A lot of toxic things, evil people, violent people, drug problems. But as soon as you say anything bad your called a hater, a furaphobe, or a troll. This kind of zealot furry mentality is the reason why the fandom isn't an okay place for everyone. Yes some evil exists in it, vile hardCORE evil. But its a good place for those who know how to cut out or handle the bad in it. Hack the system.
> 
> ...



It's perfectly possible to simply not consider those people part of the fandom. It's southern Baptists being different from, say, Mormons or Jehovah's Witness.



Ciderfine said:


> You assume Im a furry, you are wrong.
> You think I'm blowing this out of the water to be...say? 800% bigger is because is it is big. Everyone here wants to talk about only the innocent poster child of the fandom but has to realize there are big issues on a personal single human being level that many people bring to the fandom and ruin it for others.
> 
> Yes it seems big and scary, because I'm not staying silent about its issues. We cant have a progressive community if we ignore the issues time and time again. The fandom loves to think its perfect and god like, but you have proven your one of those people who doesnt like hearing the bad. How can people improve when they ignore all these issues?



Nothing is perfect, which is why we need to call out people who are indeed behaving unethically. Much of this happens anyway. Furries into drugs? Report them to the police. Furries stalling kids? Report to police. Furries banging dogs? Report. And so on and so forth. But decrying everyone as supporting these unethical people is itself rather suspect.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> It's perfectly possible to simply not consider those people part of the fandom. It's southern Baptists being different from, say, Mormons or Jehovah's Witness.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing is perfect, which is why we need to call out people who are indeed behaving unethically. Much of this happens anyway. Furries into drugs? Report them to the police. Furries stalling kids? Report to police. Furries banging dogs? Report. And so on and so forth. But decrying everyone as supporting these unethical people is itself rather suspect.



I think we should say terrible things are happening as well as report it. But many people dont so its a stale mate. Ive already done enough filling out an FBI report on a child rapist for a furry artist. I think many more should do the same.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> I think we should say terrible things are happening as well as report it. But many people dont so its a stale mate. Ive already done enough filling out an FBI report on a child rapist for a furry artist. I think many more should do the same.



Yes, if people are giving pedophiles and sexual predators a free pass, I will call those people out for being enablers as well. There's quite a bit of this very worrisome material on e621, which while not technically illegal, is ethically suspect and indicates a certain psyche that should be carefully monitored. I would not be surprised to find FBI plants there.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> Yes, if people are giving pedophiles and sexual predators a free pass, I will call those people out for being enablers as well. There's quite a bit of this very worrisome material on e621, which while not technically illegal, is ethically suspect and indicates a certain psyche that should be carefully monitored. I would not be surprised to find FBI plants there.



That's one of the biggest things that scares me to death about that site. Its shifted in such a way I pray to satan the FBI or NSA is monitoring the evil on there. There's illegal acts then theres feeding it scraps, Both don't look good at all and are big warning signs. The dude I reported was into cub and children in artwork like that. There is a correlation but we must remain on our toes.

E621 has changed so much since 2011. From Image board of artwork to porn of ever caliber.


----------



## Sagt (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> You assume Im a furry, you are wrong.
> You think I'm blowing this out of the water to be...say? 800% bigger is because is it is big. Everyone here wants to talk about only the innocent poster child of the fandom but has to realize there are big issues on a personal single human being level that many people bring to the fandom and ruin it for others.
> 
> Yes it seems big and scary, because I'm not staying silent about its issues. We cant have a progressive community if we ignore the issues time and time again. The fandom loves to think its perfect and god like, but you have proven your one of those people who doesnt like hearing the bad. How can people improve when they ignore all these issues?


There can be a balance, you know. I don't mind hearing the bad, but I just object to when people take it too far. I thought I made this clear with my posts in this thread.

It's just that, instead of ignoring all the issues in the fandom, you're kind on the other side of that spectrum, whereby you'll take any chance you get to make some nasty generalisations about the people that interact in the fandom, thereby blowing the issues out of proportion. What makes these sorts of posts even more bothersome, to me, is that they are often not constructive in the slightest, and almost always involve weasel words, like "evil" or "degenerate."


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> That's one of the biggest things that scares me to death about that site. Its shifted in such a way I pray to satan the FBI or NSA is monitoring the evil on there. There's illegal acts then theres feeding it scraps, Both don't look good at all and are big warning signs. The dude I reported was into cub and children in artwork like that. There is a correlation but we must remain on our toes.
> 
> E621 has changed so much since 2011. From Image board of artwork to porn of ever caliber.



Right, the artwork represents some potentially serious psychological problems. Is it, obviously, pedophilic art. However, it is not technically illegal remember, and harms no one, and may be a safe venue for pedophiles to, ugh, enjoy themselves. On the other hand... it could embolden them, as our brains have a habit of transforming fantasies into reality.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> There can be a balance, you know. I don't mind hearing the bad, but I just object to when people take it too far. I thought I made this clear with my posts in this thread.
> 
> It's just that, instead of ignoring all the issues in the fandom, you're kind on the other side of that spectrum, whereby you'll take any chance you get to make some nasty generalisations about the people that interact in the fandom, thereby blowing the issues out of proportion. What makes these sorts of posts even more bothersome, to me, is that they are often not constructive in the slightest, and almost always involve weasel words, like "evil" or "degenerate."



The main issue is everyone starts off with the fandom being perfect, and when someone says other wise as a warning that there is sometimes horrible shit that does happen you point the blame finger. You say "Cider your the alt right because I think you take it to far. Im gonna label and call you one of those people because I think your a part of the problem by screaming we have issues"

Well we do. This conversation will not be construvie or go anything until people take it to heart, get sick of hearing it and do something. Its a common learning method where children ignroe what their parents say until a real life thing hits them. Its works but is super delayed. We cant make the fandom innocent when it isnt. It is an adult organism, thriving on all forms of what people bring in. Good or bad and I have seen tons of bad things and only a pinch of salt and pepper good.

The neagtivity I'm bringing on here is to help people catch on there is more then meats the eye of fursuits that make squeaky toy noises all the time. It is constructive feedback for a reason. I am giving negative speech because we have bad issues that need to be addressed. But first they must be read, heard, listened to and seen. Ive done all that, now its other peoples turns to step up.

I cannot say good things about a system of flaws.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> You assume Im a furry, you are wrong.


This has nothing to do with anything, so apologies for the tangent, but...
Is it really that horrible of an assumption that you are a furry when 1) you are on a furry forum, 2) you have a furry avatar, and 3) on your profile you list yourself as a porcupine? Like... what were you expecting exactly?


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> This has nothing to do with anything, so apologies for the tangent, but...
> Is it really that horrible of an assumption that you are a furry when 1) you are on a furry forum, 2) you have a furry avatar, and 3) on your profile you list yourself as a porcupine? Like... what were you expecting exactly?



 Just because I like the art form, use it and hire artists to help make artwork that also helped me guide a 3d character. Something that was zootopia before it was zootopia  thats why. I dont need talking animals or anything about them acting like bipedal to make me a furry. I can enjoy the fandom in my own way by not being part of it. Because I'm not, the fandom created a culture and everyone hijacked it, even me.

Just because I like liberal or conservative beliefs doesn't make me a nazi does it?

Im excepting people to fall for it. You people always do, your not animals, you dont have an alter ego your human beings who enjoy the artform. Nothing else. You have a character on paper that talks. Thats its. Just because I enjoy a small part of it doesn't make me a furry. I use the artists in this community for my own interests. You cant label everyone furry if they like one or two things.

I enjoy anthro artwork, the pride and interesting take on and take different parts of it for my own uses in 3d work and world building. The fandom doesn't own me because I like something it does. I act like the locals. Its the number one method of survival. That's how I coexist with people on here, easy to slide in and see things from their point of view. Its helped understand your ways, community, ideology and the flaws and issues.

Now back in 2007 I would say I was a furry but I've matured and realized Im not a talking animal. Creating a character that reflects on ones real meaning is an important part to art, therapy and self discovery of identity and culture. All forms of beings use a form of the fandom: character creation, ideas etc. You see I created the porcupine as a mean as teen to cope with very vile things in my life. Abuse, neglect, mental illness. I needed a creature that was flawed, cute, abused, neglected and shunned. That person was me and the porcupine was a self wall of healing in therapy and understanding how I worked and handled such traumas. Of course that was years ago, and the character has changed to be my own tool in world building then just online animal people. I turned the porcupine into something much much more. A face people relate to. A annoying face that strikes back. Funny what such an animal can do to represent you.


As a sass master who says I can't pretend or go alone with the crowd with having an anthro character without being furry? You all think this culture is yours and you can claim people who do like it or have something just like you. So tell me, why don't you call hispanic, aboriginal people and ancient cultures like Egypt furries? I see a lot of animal people in artwork, lore, legends and important stories, religion too. 

Everyone wears the masquerade ball costumes but many of us don't dance. Im not the only person on here like this, many artists on here aren't anthro but draw it. There is no shame in that. So stop assuming just because I go with the program and look a small part. That's blind obedience, don't do that.


----------



## Sagt (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> You say "Cider your the alt right because I think you take it to far. Im gonna label and call you one of those people because I think your a part of the problem by screaming we have issues"


I actually haven't labelled you anything yet, so I don't know what you're going on about. 



Ciderfine said:


> The main issue is everyone starts off with the fandom being perfect, and when someone says other wise as a warning that there is sometimes horrible shit that does happen you point the blame finger. You say "Cider your the alt right because I think you take it to far. Im gonna label and call you one of those people because I think your a part of the problem by screaming we have issues"
> 
> Well we do. This conversation will not be construvie or go anything until people take it to heart, get sick of hearing it and do something. Its a common learning method where children ignroe what their parents say until a real life thing hits them. Its works but is super delayed. We cant make the fandom innocent when it isnt. It is an adult organism, thriving on all forms of what people bring in. Good or bad and I have seen tons of bad things and only a pinch of salt and pepper good.
> 
> ...


Do you really believe that the people you think to be a problem will just conform to your standards of what you'd like the fandom to be? That's a pretty damn unrealistic expectation. 

I'll mention that I have my points of contention with some aspects of this fandom too, but I certainly don't think it's quite as dystopian as you make it out to be.


----------



## aloveablebunny (Dec 28, 2017)

Damn, this dumpster fire is still burning bright.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 28, 2017)

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, son.
I uh... seemed to hit a nerve, me thinks.
(to be fair, pretty drunk right now, but probably still right)

Ok... where to start. Basics first, I guess.



Ciderfine said:


> As a sass master who says I can't pretend or go alone with the crowd with having an anthro character without being furry? You all think this culture is yours and you can claim people who do like it or have something just like you. So tell me, why don't you call hispanic, aboriginal people and ancient cultures like Egypt furries? I see a lot of animal people in artwork, lore, legends and important stories, religion too.


I never said you couldn't pretend or go "alone [sic] with the crowd" without being a furry. I merely asked why you assumed that you presenting as a furry for all intents and purposes wouldn't cause people to assume you were a furry. You got really snippy with someone for making a completely understandable mistake. I was merely pointing out you were overreacting, nothing more. Though from your response to me, overreacting seems to be your shtick.



Ciderfine said:


> Just because I like the art form, use it and hire artists to help make artwork that also helped me guide a 3d character. Something that was zootopia before it was zootopia thats why. I dont need talking animals or anything about them acting like bipedal to make me a furry. I can enjoy the fandom in my own way by not being part of it. Because I'm not, the fandom created a culture and everyone hijacked it, even me.


I'm definitely for people defining furry as they see fit and using the label only if they want to. I'm not going to pressure someone into calling themselves a furry or call someone else out for saying they're a furry even if they don't "act" like one. It's whatever you make it to be. You do you. And I'm very much like you in that I'm not really a fur by most standards. I like the art, enjoy the creativity, and am dabbling in some furry lit, but I don't really identify as a furry or have an honest fursona or any of that. But I'm not going to be cruel to someone for making an honest mistake.



Ciderfine said:


> Just because I like liberal or conservative beliefs doesn't make me a nazi does it?


Lol wut?
neither being liberal nor conservative have anything to do with Nazism. And Nazism doesn't have anything to do with being furry. Random inflammatory comment is random.



Ciderfine said:


> Im excepting people to fall for it. You people always do, your not animals, you dont have an alter ego your human beings who enjoy the artform. Nothing else. You have a character on paper that talks. Thats its. Just because I enjoy a small part of it doesn't make me a furry. I use the artists in this community for my own interests. You cant label everyone furry if they like one or two things.


Soooo... you're trying to play "gotcha" with the fandom? Ok.

Furries do not necessarily think they are animals. Therians believe they have an animal spirit or in essence are an animal trapped in a human body (actual Therians can elaborate if I'm butchering this horribly), and there's Otherkin, and each can be furries, but furries are not necessarily Therians or Otherkin. Kind of like how a square is a rectangle but rectangles aren't always squares. So now who's doing the assuming? Or are you trying to imply something else? It's really hard to decipher what you're saying with all these dangling modifiers, lack of proper punctuation, and incorrect grammar. (apologies if English isn't your first/native language)



Ciderfine said:


> The fandom doesn't own me because I like something it does.


No one said they/we did?



Ciderfine said:


> Now back in 2007 I would say I was a furry but I've matured and realized Im not a talking animal. Creating a character that reflects on ones real meaning is an important part to art, therapy and self discovery of identity and culture. All forms of beings use a form of the fandom: character creation, ideas etc. You see I created the porcupine as a mean as teen to cope with very vile things in my life. Abuse, neglect, mental illness. I needed a creature that was flawed, cute, abused, neglected and shunned. That person was me and the porcupine was a self wall of healing in therapy and understanding how I worked and handled such traumas. Of course that was years ago, and the character has changed to be my own tool in world building then just online animal people. I turned the porcupine into something much much more. A face people relate to. A annoying face that strikes back. Funny what such an animal can do to represent you.


I'm sincerely glad that the fandom could help you work through your traumas and issues.
I wouldn't necessarily call porcupines abused or neglected (maybe as species to pick for characters, but not actually), but it's great that you found something to help you through the rough times. 



Ciderfine said:


> Everyone wears the masquerade ball costumes but many of us don't dance. Im not the only person on here like this, many artists on here aren't anthro but draw it. There is no shame in that. So stop assuming just because I go with the program and look a small part. That's blind obedience, don't do that.


Of course there is no shame in that, but there's also no shame in making a mistake. If one walks like a fur, talks like a fur, and presents as a fur... well, people are going to assume they're a fur. It's not blind obedience, but rather a solid conclusion based on deductive reasoning.


And.... I'm out. Don't want to derail things any farther. Besides, I can already feel people being mad at me for stirring up shit again.


----------



## Water Draco (Dec 28, 2017)

Still new my self. Every so often there is a bit of drama between a minority of forum members. But soon learnt to look past it and get on with what I enjoy.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

Actually it does, a lot of conservative are called such things all the time. Hell I cant open up about my own thoughts without someone screaming "Hes evil, sick em!" Its' not inflammatory but basic muscle memory that once I said or say something people dont like SHTF on their end and they take personal offense to it. Everyone has been so brainwashed to think your one their side or something evil.

It's the same logic in the fandom. Someone dont agree or support it your a betrayer. Its common psychology of a cult mentality. Its not such a random comment when you see the drones of not wanting to hear something happen again and again. Its all to familiar. Ive been called half the names in the book for not being of a standard a lot of furries expect on here, attacked in many ways. But the attacks arent the issue, its that I;ve noted they use the same childish tactics of misusing words.

You know maybe if the fandom was a better place in another life I would still be "one" of yall. It was magically nice and loving to see such a fresh new art form, colors in a black and white human world. An interesting take, something open alien. But as entered it, I found evil and ignorance everywhere a little more each day, week month and year. I found good people, but they were simple breadcrumbs. I found that fame was such a cancer, people rotated towards porn, showing off, artwork, skill rather than form and individuality. Skill is now used to spread some agenda or fashion style, low life things. Very rarely can one find the good things in the community or in the work it does.

I don't think the fandom is to thank for me getting through my issues, I think only its art form is. Something that made me ponder, plan think and build something. We are known for what we create, and right now I;m seeing a lot of empty creations, mutated ugly artworks, foul ideals spread. No the fandom isn't to thank for me getting better, but me for using a part of it and making it my own to health with. I thank the artwork and hard work and care back in the old days, not todays toxic and bland majority crowd of minnows in this digital sea. I think anthropomorphism is more important than the furry fandom, because its accepted way to many things and is not about the original stable open point anymore, but self agenda and porn.


You could blame it on the time period, maybe the many changes FA went through years and years ago but the fact is the actions and illegal content and traits of other ruined the community. Look at it now, its been taken over by not furry artists but human, futa, sfm asset flipped models. There is no individuality on here anymore. This community is a partial ghost town with parties and the SSDD all on shuffle. I don't find it sad, I find the existence of people who now run the community by adding onto it excluding the good of the fandom to be sad. Artwork, freedom and respect. Are at all time low integrity value.


Its funny you say that being drunk since english is my first language, and its a language that has been infected with so much more cookie dough then anyone can shape out. It will change and be used in so many ways then it is being used. Maybe it looks so bad to you because you drunk, and blood alcohol levels does amazing things to your eyesight and brain.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> I actually haven't labelled you anything yet, so I don't know what you're going on about.
> 
> 
> Do you really believe that the people you think to be a problem will just conform to your standards of what you'd like the fandom to be? That's a pretty damn unrealistic expectation.
> ...




It is bleak, because there are no standards anymore. This whole family friendly thing has created a new standard of very high acceptance which is very unusual and a toxic aspect to force on people, let alone project. What I'm on about with the whole politics thing, is during my time when I first joined and up to now: Ive noticed when people disagree with me I tend to get a lot of flak, heat and cuss words like soap in the eyes. The actions of people on here are the graves and roads they will take and they speak for themselves for sure.

Maybe you havent run into so many rapists, pedohpiles, toxic members. Different day same issues. I find the fandom has so much more of these issues because of how accepting it is and foolish people act. Forcing cringy fur families, going to website admins instead of the police, daily controversies that keep repeating. It's like a school almost. Bloody 4th graders running a muck, the majority of my time here has been A+ awful. A painful learning experience but a needed one that many people don;t share, but tend to avoid any topic of the bad in the fandom. They all just move on....party and crash and burn. I don't think that a logical way for this community or people to portray the fandom.

It wasn't this bad when I found the fandom years ago, but something very clear changed. If it wasn't so toxic ages ago maybe I would still be one and not use the porcupine as a shadow to keep an eye on something I enjoy and used for a different sort. Things were simple and good back then, which wasn't that long ago really. Either culture messed up or their is a norm of society that I missed, but this place has turned into Detroit looking back on all the changes and actions of people. I worry even for this carcass of a place.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Its funny you say that being drunk since english is my first language, and its a language that has been infected with so much more cookie dough then anyone can shape out. It will change and be used in so many ways then it is being used. Maybe it looks so bad to you because you drunk, and blood alcohol levels does amazing things to your eyesight and brain.


Nah. I'm pretty sure you just don't know the correct way to use "your" and "you're". Or proper punctuation. Or sentence structure. Like, yeah, language develops and evolves, but there is no way your first sentence in the paragraph I quoted makes any grammatical sense.

---​
(Interjection by ellaerna's teetotaler bf: Seriously, let's take a brief look at that, because it made me smile, and there aren't enough things that do that.

"Its funny you say that being drunk since english is my first language, and its a language that has been infected with so much cookie dough then anyone can shape out."​For starters, literally both times you use "its", you ought to be using "it's". The former is a possessive pronoun, indicating that the noun that follows is owned by 'it'. The latter is a contraction of "it is".
The "e" in English should be uppercase, since it denotes a proper noun.

You use "then" when you mean "than". The former designates that something occurs after something else (e.g. I bought a donut, _then_ ate it.), while the latter is used for comparing two things (e.g. 5 is greater _than_ 3).
Also, maybe "to shape something out" is an actual idiom, but if so, it's not one I've ever heard. Maybe it's a regional thing? Or perhaps you meant "sort out"?

Finally, the entire thing is a run-on sentence. Consider the first clause, "Its funny you say that being drunk since english is my first language". You need a comma between "that" and "being", otherwise the sentence indicates that she's saying something about being drunk, (for comparison, "I called Paul and he says that you should pick up some milk."). Regardless, it should be restructured altogether. I'd go with something like "It's funny that you say this while drunk, since English is my first language." To be fair, the second clause is a complete clause, but your combination of "so much" and "than" doesn't make any sense. I'd propose either "it's been infected with so much cookie dough that nobody could sort it out", or "it's been infected with more cookie dough than anyone could sort out". Regardless, it's a bizarre choice to use cookie dough in this metaphor, since everyone can agree that cookie dough is delicious, and its inclusion can only serve to improve.
</interjection>)

---​
This has been your daily grammar lesson from ellaerna and her pedant bf.  #themoreyouknow
sorry, everyone. we couldn't help ourselves.


----------



## JCobalt (Dec 28, 2017)

Ciderfine, I actually really get where you are coming from in some aspects.  I love anthro art, both drawing it and consuming it.  What I draw, I draw because it interests me (which does involve a lot of...let's say figural studies...), and it stimulates my imagination in a way that other forms of expression don't.  I've been in and out of art school, and have tried dozens of trades, but none of them I love doing as much as drawing.

I share a lot of interests with those who identify as furry, but I myself never really feel like I can be a part of that group, or any group, for that matter.  I don't like my identity to be lumped in with others I don't know about just because I gave myself a label.  What's always kept me interested in furry shit though is that compared to other fandoms on the web, it is one of the few that is not directly based on a commercial or existing product, but more a movement of art.  I can just be tangentially interested in the art and not really be invested in the extracurriculars of the fandom.

Edit because I forgot the point i was making:
I'm sorry that you get flack for having dissent for a fandom, because I find that people who complain the most care about the thing they're involved in a lot, otherwise they wouldn't complain.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

The fandom has good and bad. Don't forget there is always good and bad together. You can't focus on just the bad or you become cynical and negative. But yuh can't shut out the bad either, because without it good cannot exists.

Don't put someone down for choosing not to focus on the bad in the fandom.


----------



## Open_Mind (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> Don't put someone down for choosing not to focus on the bad in the fandom.


I think, that was where I was trying to go with my post a few days ago. I _choose_ to be an optimist, to be positive, to hope for the best. I love the people and the art. I don't know how many others share my view, but I've found many new friends since I got here. I'll take that as a good sign that I'm in the right place!


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Open_Mind said:


> I think, that was where I was trying to go with my post a few days ago. I _choose_ to be an optimist, to be positive, to hope for the best. I love the people and the art. I don't know how many others share my view, but I've found many new friends since I got here. I'll take that as a good sign that I'm in the right place!



That's good. There always needs to be optimism, because without it the bad overtakes the good. Never let anyone discourage you! I'm always happy to meet more optimists!


----------



## Moar Krabs (Dec 29, 2017)

Because some people think that furries are guys who fuck animals. Then they shared their opinion on the internet and a lot of other people decided to have that opinion as well.


----------



## Baalf (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> I get so much hate for telling my side of what I see in the fandom.



Maybe it's because you're not actually spreading truths around. You just say the most horrible thing you can about furries, post a few examples and say "Oh ho, this is proof that EVERY furry is horrible."

You're right, we're NOT perfect. No one is. No community or group is, and not many people are pretending we are. My big problem is how it feels like you just want to exaggerate shit, which I feel is the main problem. We have our demons, but compounding every single problem, shoving it in people's faces, and going around as a bible thumper saying "This is what furries are like" will not be the "wake up call" you seem to think it is, especially if a lot of it is greatly exaggerated.


----------



## DarkoKavinsky (Dec 29, 2017)

By Odin's graces this is a wee bit of a block of dumpster fires. By the gods! Ciderfine's comments are both difficult to read and hard to comprehend. Some things he stated I can see being an issue like the small minority who are shady or creepy fucks, but honestly. And I mean honestly until there's gangs of fursuiters whipping out balsongs and doing lines of coke on hooker's breasts, I doubt this fandom has devolved to a point of such hatred. Sure there's some weird things, but what ever what community doesn't have a small faction of weird crap.

You know I'm part of a massive group of interests and the people I hang out with are vast. I'm into hotrod culture, as well the rat rod scene. I'm heavily into many crazy things, but here's the thing.  This community (Minus a few obvious trolls who people react in a similar fashion to going OH... them... yeah no wonder why when their name is muttered) It's been accepting. I can't really grasp the hatred for furries, and I am usually the most _spiteful_ bastard out there. I'm usually a pessimist but golly damn Ciderfine you're dragging me down mate.

Ciderfine you need to calm down, or maybe put down the bottle. You're reminding me heavily of that drunk guy who crawled out of a bar while wielding around a bottle. You know the one who  stumbles up to their ex's house banging on the door while crying out her name then going , "WHAT DID YOU DO! WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU! HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO US!?!"

She throws up the window and then goes, "YOU'RE DRUNK  DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT TIME IT IS!? GO HOME!"

Which you reply, "BITCH! I DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHA-WHAT TIME IT IS!" Before you stumble backwards over a garbage can. " I NEVER NEEDED YOU! I'M NOT A FURRY! I'M ASHAMED TO BE EVEN NEAR THIS DUMPSTER FIR-FUCK YOU!"

before falling over on the floor asphalt and puking..

Am I the only one who got that vibe? Me? So only me? Damn...


----------



## Deleted member 111470 (Dec 29, 2017)

There's a lot of negativity all over the world I'm afraid. It isn't furry exclusive.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 29, 2017)

Hellooooo dumpster fire 9000. I've missed you.


----------



## Jarren (Dec 29, 2017)

If we could take those walls of text and bring them into the real world Trump would have his border wall in no time 

In all seriousness, some of the negativity is a combination of edgy kids and people not getting how to do/appreciate self deprecating humor. Once you put that stuff aside you still have a lump of people who actually do view the fandom in a negative light and you'll have that everywhere (there's always someone who's had nothing but bad experiences with stuff and has an axe to grind. Granted, this fandom does have some.... Unique problems but I would not say it has more than a lot of others (per capita at least) and the problematic people are just low hanging fruit that's easy to point out or exploit.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

You do realize a lot of people spell you're by using the "your" right? Especially a lot POC so I dont give a fuck about your grammar lessons. English is being used in ways that break the rules, thats why its a successful language. 

If your so triggered by me using your so much, I think you need to put the booze down and go for that kush to calm down. Says a lot about you really.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> You do realize a lot of people spell you're by using the "your" right? Especially a lot POC so I dont give a fuck about your grammar lessons. English is being used in ways that break the rules, thats why its a successful language.
> 
> If your so triggered by me using your so much, I think you need to put the booze down and go for that kush to calm down. Says a lot about you really.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Listen theres so much proof the fandom is a mess you just need to go out and find it. Stop pretending I making it a giant monster with spider legs, bad users have made the fandom a giant joke running amuck. If you cant handle that then I cant educate someone who wants to stay in their fetish okay sunshine happy people world.

Your upset because I brought some light to something you dont want to talk about. If your so busy blaming someone else of course you don't see the issues. This is proof: I question your stance and logic for defending a flawed place and you fire back with  "Not all of us" "your being mean" Its a common cult mentality your swinging with by saying what Im saying is fake news. Your a part of the problem for not opening up.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Listen theres so much proof the fandom is a mess you just need to go out and find it. Stop pretending I making it a giant monster with spider legs, bad users have made the fandom a giant joke running amuck. If you cant handle that then I cant educate someone who wants to stay in their fetish okay sunshine happy people world.
> 
> Your upset because I brought some light to something you dont want to talk about. If your so busy blaming someone else of course you don't see the issues. This is proof: I question your stance and logic for defending a flawed place and you fire back with  "Not all of us" "your being mean" Its a common cult mentality your swinging with by saying what Im saying is fake news. Your a part of the problem for not opening up.


Damn fake news degenerates scuffing up the faindum


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 29, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


>


Holy shit, dude.





I love the new Avatar! IT'S SO DAMN CYOOT!


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Dec 29, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Holy shit, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> You do realize a lot of people spell you're by using the "your" right? Especially a lot POC so I dont give a fuck about your grammar lessons. English is being used in ways that break the rules, thats why its a successful language.
> 
> If your so triggered by me using your so much, I think you need to put the booze down and go for that kush to calm down. Says a lot about you really.


Hahaha. Dude. I really do not think you are in any position to come at _me_ for being "triggered".

I asked a simple question, to which you responded with a *seven paragraph* diatribe about how I and the fandom did you wrong and then responded to me again with a *six paragraph* essay. Like maybe you're the one who needs that weed, friend. Or maybe less weed if it's making you this paranoid. 

But nah, brah, I'm _totally_ the triggered one. Sure. Hahahahaha


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

BennyJackdaw said:


> Maybe it's because you're not actually spreading truths around. You just say the most horrible thing you can about furries, post a few examples and say "Oh ho, this is proof that EVERY furry is horrible."
> 
> You're right, we're NOT perfect. No one is. No community or group is, and not many people are pretending we are. My big problem is how it feels like you just want to exaggerate shit, which I feel is the main problem. We have our demons, but compounding every single problem, shoving it in people's faces, and going around as a bible thumper saying "This is what furries are like" will not be the "wake up call" you seem to think it is, especially if a lot of it is greatly exaggerated.





DarkoKavinsky said:


> By Odin's graces this is a wee bit of a block of dumpster fires. By the gods! Ciderfine's comments are both difficult to read and hard to comprehend. Some things he stated I can see being an issue like the small minority who are shady or creepy fucks, but honestly. And I mean honestly until there's gangs of fursuiters whipping out balsongs and doing lines of coke on hooker's breasts, I doubt this fandom has devolved to a point of such hatred. Sure there's some weird things, but what ever what community doesn't have a small faction of weird crap.
> 
> You know I'm part of a massive group of interests and the people I hang out with are vast. I'm into hotrod culture, as well the rat rod scene. I'm heavily into many crazy things, but here's the thing.  This community (Minus a few obvious trolls who people react in a similar fashion to going OH... them... yeah no wonder why when their name is muttered) It's been accepting. I can't really grasp the hatred for furries, and I am usually the most _spiteful_ bastard out there. I'm usually a pessimist but golly damn Ciderfine you're dragging me down mate.
> 
> ...




Lads and gents, I give you example B. I can take your hit and respect where your coming from but lets not joke about booze and drugs given its a big issue in the fandom. I dunno where you get this vibe from, I'm not supposed to act or write a certain way that reminds you of buttercups, toxic butterflies in classical jazzy colors. No Im supposed to be me, and trying to scale up someone by the way they write or word things is kind of low?

Also I cannot drink, medication wise and health wise. Sure I sound inflammatory, but really I think its because people don't want to hear the highlighting of the bad things Ive seen, lived or witnessed in the fandom or on FA in general. Sure I sound crazy, but when you have seen the issues on a cycle of immortality in the fandom or anyplace online or in society you have to stand up and be heard for. 

Joking aside, making jokes pointed at me as if I'm an...addict with the way I act vibe is pointing more flak in my direction and less in the direction of the issues people in the fandom have and ruin for others. If your going to talk about vibes, lets talk about what someone is then what you feel. I don't care about your feelings, only the fact is there are a lot of issues I have ran into, and a lot of crazy people this place fosters.

But by all means, picture me as some addict. I'm sure it won't do you good when you try to get a vibe reading on other people. I dont think thats a logical way to add to a conversation on the topic at hand. "this furry sounds drunk, angry, a wife beater"


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Lads and gents, I give you example B. I can take your hit and respect where your coming from but lets not joke about booze and drugs given its a big issue in the fandom. I dunno where you get this vibe from, I'm not supposed to act or write a certain way that reminds you of buttercups, toxic butterflies in classical jazzy colors. No Im supposed to be me, and trying to scale up someone by the way they write or word things is kind of low?
> 
> Also I cannot drink, medication wise and health wise. Sure I sound inflammatory, but really I think its because people don't want to hear the highlighting of the bad things Ive seen, lived or witnessed in the fandom or on FA in general. Sure I sound crazy, but when you have seen the issues on a cycle of immortality in the fandom or anyplace online or in society you have to stand up and be heard for.
> 
> ...


Look, dude, you are reading a lot into not a lot of text. You were poking at me for being drunk and said I should switch to weed, so I poked back with the weed thing. You were the one who brought drugs and alcohol into this, I was just following suit. I never said you were some addict, and I honestly don't think that you are one. And you don't sound like a "drunk, angry, wife beater". I mean, you do sound angry, but everyone gets angry. It's not a huge deal. I'll stop with the drugs and alcohol talk, fine, but I think you're overreacting just a smidgen.

I know that language is weird and we're all going to talk the way we talk. Black English Vernacular is definitely a thing, so much so that it's basically a second language. And on a regular day, I wouldn't give two shits about "your" and "you're". So long as we communicated effectively, it doesn't super matter. But I was honestly having trouble reading some of your run on sentences because of how they were structured and you fired back at me by claiming I was just too drunk to read properly. I admitted that my reading of your content could have been wrong and opened up the floor for correction, but instead you just shoved me down. So, because I'm a pedantic asshole (I will freely admit that), I fired back with the help of my equally pedantic asshole bf. It was an asshole move, sure, but it's not like you were bringing civil debate to this either. 

I never "scaled you up" by the way you write. I noticed while skimming the thread that you snipped at someone for assuming that you were a furry. I checked for myself to see if you had any markers of clearly not being a furry, didn't find any, and thought that I would ask you about it. And even when you blew up at me for it, I honestly tried to work through your points. I never tried to fight you on how the fandom is or say that there aren't negative aspects of furries. I was only trying to defend myself and my original point. To which you again blew up at me and eventually accused me of being "triggered". 

You are the one who is acting triggered through all this. You are the one who overreacted to a question. You are the one who read into what I was saying and labelled me a drunk. You are the one who suggested weed. By all accounts, you are the one not logically adding to this conversation. Maybe take a step back, take a deep breath, and try to see what people are _really_ saying before responding to it. Ok?


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Well you where drunk when you said the first thing, so thats my proof. For starters.
Second its called resistance, its not supposed to be pretty when someone doesnt see the way you see things. I write a lot because words do work, and we will not ever see the same side of the pillow or coin or feather.

But this is all because I've noticed when I say something people dont like, there is flak. Thats troublesome because it proves furries dont like to talk about the real issues and direct things else. I don't think as I can be triggered really. As I stopped caring about a lot of personal stuff. Still lovie calling it out tho.

But your main pain on point was "Cider you remind me of the 1920s drunkard the way you scheme" that picked up from you.  Im done talking to someone who didn't start on a level of good will, decided to critique someone else work when intoxicated and move from there. Not a good move to keep on for, and the way you assume without a honest focused question is by far not a way to keep something going.

"Your acting triggered" Actually im on my desktop gaming right now, I don't see myself foaming at the mouth and shaking screaming "no room for hatespeech" But If I did take it far I apologize and take it a step back. But when you get flak all day for not agreeing with everyones "the fandom is good, if you say anything about that your evil" type of ratio you come the conclusion man, you need to have a kevlar vest and some ginger tea to prepare and wonder what other things people will size you up by..AKA "Cider you remind me of a drunk" is not  a way to continue a conversation, or build up from that.


----------



## ellaerna (Dec 29, 2017)

...
I'm done. 
Though with the amount of quotes you just made that I never ever said to you, I feel like you could have this conversation all by yourself.


----------



## lupi900 (Dec 29, 2017)

@Ciderfine


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

lupi900 said:


> @Ciderfine



Actually I'm just bored because no one can counter what I've said. Using memes as a way to combat someone really wont change...anything will it?
The post on negativity has turned into a lot, I say something someone dont like and we do get the "cider is mad, drunk and a hater" This mentality is why we don't see more opinions and conversation about the bad of the fandom when people shame and laugh off that one guy as a "troll".


----------



## lupi900 (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Actually I'm just bored because no one can counter what I've said. Using memes as a way to combat someone really wont change...anything will it?
> The post on negativity has turned into a lot, I say something someone dont like and we do get the "cider is mad, drunk and a hater" This mentality is why we don't see more opinions and conversation about the bad of the fandom when people shame and laugh off that one guy as a "troll".



What?, Your the one here who can't argue back without childish insults & made up qoutes while calling people triggerd?. How can we have a topic when your novel sized rants are nothing beyond you ignoring how the shitty furs are the 1%, Refuse to back up any of your claims.

This sketch is pretty much how you sound like.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

lupi900 said:


> What?, Your the one here who can't argue back without childish insults & made up qoutes while calling people triggerd?. How can we have a topic when your novel sized rants are nothing beyond you ignoring how the shitty furs are the 1%, Refuse to back up any of your claims.
> 
> This sketch is pretty much how you sound like.




Well because my words are my claims on what I have seen negative wise in the fandom. Okay lets talk facts then:

The HIV issue at AC,
 RC which destroyed a hotel and showed furries are into scat filled diapers, sex parties and destroying things is proof. The media covered it.
The Drug overdoses at AC, the fire alarms being pulled, and a HIV testing room at AC this year.

The toxic gay and artist culture, the pedophiles on here, the fetish based category system which for uploading swf artwork is totally not based on. Furries posting insane shit on social media and not expecting people to think yall arent into some weird ass shit is proof.

I've been giving my personal experiences summed up,  the facts above are proof, the cons, the disasters, the users arrested for rape, zoophilia, or other illegal things are quick forgotten about and ignored.  I cant debate people who dont like what Ive seen or say. Come at then with something that can be debated. And dont bring the "not all furries" into this because Im sure not all terrorist attacks arent done by that one religion. Ive seen very bad things in the fandom for all my time here.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Well because my words are my claims on what I have seen negative wise in the fandom. Okay lets talk facts then:
> 
> The HIV issue at AC,
> RC which destroyed a hotel and showed furries are into scat filled diapers, sex parties and destroying things is proof. The media covered it.
> ...



Lots of Christians have done bad things, does that make all of them bad? You may perceive the fandom to be so, but that does not make it so. If the fandom is bad, then why contribute to the toxicity? Negative, hostile attitudes like this negatively impact the fandom by deterring some of the less negative new users, leaving only the cynics. 

If you are that upset by the fandom, nobody forces you to be part of it.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Well because my words are my claims on what I have seen negative wise in the fandom. Okay lets talk facts then:
> 
> The HIV issue at AC,
> RC which destroyed a hotel and showed furries are into scat filled diapers, sex parties and destroying things is proof. The media covered it.
> ...



Rain Furrest was a disaster, and there was no HIV outbreak because of it. Anthrocon is not having HIV testing rooms. (Possibility they have an optional testing room to raise general awareness.)

And FA users are not being routinely arrested for zoophilia, and there are few if any people here who could qualify as pedophiles.

Please make more sense, back up your claims, and stop making baseless statements against the fandom.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Criticism helps build things grow and build into better more open and diverse forms of existence. It doesn't do the opposite. I dunno what form of punishments you were subjected to that make you think telling people, "I have seen these issues over and over again" is a bad thing when people dont like it when you shed light on the issues on this place. Its quiet destructive when you call out people talking about the flaws in hopes of doing what? Covering it up?

The real definition of toxicity is where a mass of something reaches lethal levels. We see this with the pack minded actions people chose to do. Repeat the same issues then learn from them. Time and time again we have stories, events, recorded things that furries are not perfect, they do things they should not. And when someone like me mentions it its "Your so negative and toxic". How is talking about something bad toxic when it can open up peoples eyes to issues they didn't realize and be open to change or the possibility they may have it wrong. Thats all im doing.

You really cant leave it so to say. Its gotten so Awol nation that everyone is making it into their own fandom of ideas norms. Social media, discord, artwork, big websites, and in life are home to disastrous furries. Furries that I have met and prove they want to remain in the cycle of issues because its "fun" to them. These issues aren't normal. Right now the issue isn't what christians did in the past its what foolish things furries do, illegal gross or vile and get away with it that matters.

Im here right now talking about issues, in the recent past, and issues that keep happening. Why is that a bad toxic thing? Now you focusing on what I'm saying to be evil is insanity, maybe that's why you think I'm toxic. Because your insane.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Criticism helps build things grow and build into better more open and diverse forms of existence. It doesn't do the opposite. I dunno what form of punishments you were subjected to that make you think telling people, "I have seen these issues over and over again" is a bad thing when people dont like it when you shed light on the issues on this place. Its quiet destructive when you call out people talking about the flaws in hopes of doing what? Covering it up?
> 
> The real definition of toxicity is where a mass of something reaches lethal levels. We see this with the pack minded actions people chose to do. Repeat the same issues then learn from them. Time and time again we have stories, events, recorded things that furries are not perfect, they do things they should not. And when someone like me mentions it its "Your so negative and toxic". How is talking about something bad toxic when it can open up peoples eyes to issues they didn't realize and be open to change or the possibility they may have it wrong. Thats all im doing.
> 
> ...



You're not simply opening people's eyes to issues, you are presenting these issues as completely representative of the whole fandom. You also are mistaken about some issues and are contributing to the toxicity you dislike. One can talk about issues all day but at the end of the day, talking fixes nothing.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> Rain Furrest was a disaster, and there was no HIV outbreak because of it. Anthrocon is not having HIV testing rooms. (Possibility they have an optional testing room to raise general awareness.)
> 
> And FA users are not being routinely arrested for zoophilia, and there are few if any people here who could qualify as pedophiles.
> 
> Please make more sense, back up your claims, and stop making baseless statements against the fandom.




Correction: RC was a failure
Years ago some dude gave Aids to a bunch of people at AC
This year at AC there was HIV testing rooms, even if PPH did do it the results from last years AC brings me to question this. A hotel with a STD testing panel sounds really strange.
This year at AC 11-12 people keep OD for fun and causing issues. For someone who talks about justice and needing to report the issues, you bring back old school vintage cases. There not to baseless when you see they happeneed.

Fact: the fandom is the most open and sexual active place because im pretty sure those fetish categories we have for uploading artwork arent for jsut the "main" population of SFW artist. The fandom is so sexual no news outlet wants to cover it because they know how much of a mess it is, and wont write any other article on it that covers all of it. Its always the slim picked "animal custumes, alter ego, charity events." We only hear the good, the strange. Isnt that odd no one will cover the entire thing? Sounds biased af.

Fact furries like sex, because they remade it into animals shagging.  Im not talking about FA, but im sure if you dig you'll find quite a few people on there are into Zoophilla. I personally dont care because the real villains dont stick to one website. They out and around doing things, in the spotlight with other people. They smile, have fun and make everything look normal.

Furries will never be taken seriously if they keep doing and not attempting to stop the basic issues the media catches them in. So stop asking for proof when you ask for proof and I give you one or two examples and you say its  "not furry" as an issue. There is an issue, most furries are party animals and are into vile things. The actions of the past and now speak for that.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Correction: RC was a failure
> Years ago some dude gave Aids to a bunch of people at AC
> This year at AC there was HIV testing rooms, even if PPH did do it the results from last years AC brings me to question this. A hotel with a STD testing panel sounds really strange.
> This year at AC 11-12 people keep OD for fun and causing issues. For someone who talks about justice and needing to report the issues, you bring back old school vintage cases. There not to baseless when you see they happeneed.
> ...



As I said, why be a part of a fandom you dislike that dislikes you back?


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> You're not simply opening people's eyes to issues, you are presenting these issues as completely representative of the whole fandom. You also are mistaken about some issues and are contributing to the toxicity you dislike. One can talk about issues all day but at the end of the day, talking fixes nothing.



How else do you open people eyes? By presenting something new then the whole party parade that goes on. The real issue is people chose to ignore the bad, the feedback and let it cycle. It keeps happening a lot...almost like people arent trying. Talking does fix things, thats what diplomats are form, college,  education, society is for. Talking built those things, fixed issues by using words and hard work. Furries cant do that, they party and ignore issues.

Well I mean, a community that allows all these issues to flourish and not be steamed is responsible and representative of their actions in the spotlight of others...no? Okay NK kills 2 hostages, do we say that's the governments issue or some side effect that doesnt paint how evil  it is? How many times will these issues which are found in the fandom and done often repeat each year week and month and people say its not a furry issue. Course it is, furries do this stuff alot.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> As I said, why be a part of a fandom you dislike that dislikes you back?



 Okay answer me this. Why didnt you move to another country because donald trump won the US election?


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> How else do you open people eyes? By presenting something new then the whole party parade that goes on. The real issue is people chose to ignore the bad, the feedback and let it cycle. It keeps happening a lot...almost like people arent trying. Talking does fix things, thats what diplomats are form, college,  education, society is for. Talking built those things, fixed issues by using words and hard work. Furries cant do that, they party and ignore issues.
> 
> Well I mean, a community that allows all these issues to flourish and not be steamed is responsible and representative of their actions in the spotlight of others...no? Okay NK kills 2 hostages, do we say that's the governments issue or some side effect that doesnt paint how evil  it is? How many times will these issues which are found in the fandom and done often repeat each year week and month and people say its not a furry issue. Course it is, furries do this stuff alot.



Settle down. You're making generalizations. Do you know for a fact nothing is being done? Some issues are deep rooted and take a long time to correct.

I didn't move because I want to improve my country and I have become involved in politics, rather than complain about the state of the US online. I actually am taking action.


----------



## Jarren (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Okay answer me this. Why didnt you move to another country because donald trump won the US election?


Because one requires a major financial investment, government approval and vetting, and uprooting of your life and massive logistical planning, the other involves not being involved in a hobby.

Leaving a fandom =\= moving country. Very bad attempt at comparison.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 29, 2017)

Don't want to be a Furry fan? Stop being one. It's that simple. It's not like you have to do self-surgery on your anus or some shit. With a teaspoon while sitting in a chair. On top of a skyscraper.

Chances are that the negative crap being done by others won't affect you. However, that doesn't mean we should ignore degenerate and outright shitty behaviour/actions.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> Settle down. You're making generalizations. Do you know for a fact nothing is being done? Some issues are deep rooted and take a long time to correct.



I don't think 12 people ODing over and over again at a convention for fun and wasting the time of EMTs and fire department  should take a long time to fix do you? There was no punishment for this becuase the furry fandom accepts rejects and vile people. Its a fact. Only after breaking headline news does the community cover its tracks. 

 People dont talk about this issues because they scream "REEEE i need proofs" followed by "that isnt proof, furries can do drugs are raves, trash hotels, stalk people post porn vids playing on a rave tv because they are good people" and not expect someone to say What the fuck is going here. Hard to prove something members of the fandom dont like me talking about, which is proof enough because if any of you dont like what I'm saying and feel the need to keep asking for spot on facts, a list of names, lawsuits while avoiding the main focus of the issue your not gonna change.

The media doesn't report it because when was the last time the fandom allowed someone from an outside news source to cover all the things the fandom is? The sexual art, the kinks, the acceptance of fetishes and unmoral behavior alone with the good and real side to it? No one would allow, in fact your doing the same thing right now "not all furries" "where is your proof" its a common tactic used by religions who don't want to be criticized at all.




The fandom has been caught with so many of its members with their pants down being degenerates. I thinks thats all the facts we needs because it keeps happening, and getting worse, and trying to talk about it leads to the "There is no proof, my good fursuit is proof" is not logically valid.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> I don't think 12 people ODing over and over again at a convention for fun and wasting the time of EMTs and fire department  should take a long time to fix do you? There was no punishment for this becuase the furry fandom accepts rejects and vile people. Its a fact. Only after breaking headline news does the community cover its tracks.
> 
> People dont talk about this issues because they scream "REEEE i need proofs" followed by "that isnt proof, furries can do drugs are raves, trash hotels, stalk people post porn vids playing on a rave tv because they are good people" and not expect someone to say What the fuck is going here. Hard to prove something members of the fandom dont like me talking about, which is proof enough because if any of you dont like what I'm saying and feel the need to keep asking for spot on facts, a list of names, lawsuits while avoiding the main focus of the issue your not gonna change.
> 
> ...



You're repeating yourself without actually addressing anybody's responses. Please put effort into replying to those who are talking to you. Yakamaru put it very well. Issues cannot be ignored, but as I asked before: How do you know they are ignored and nothing is being done? 

And my earlier question. Why do you want to be in this fandom?


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Actually its the same thing, the main issues are on FA and in public and other places online.

I dont leave the fandom just because bad things happen. The real reason I asked that question is because the user assumed it was sucha bad place and leaving was the only logical option. Spoiler alert: just because bad inhabits where you live or like doesnt meant you have to hang up your coat and retire for good.

Hes pretending like leaving is the only abusive thing im not doing. Didnt occur to you FA isnt the fandom but a part of it. Ive been seeing its issues both irl, and on other websites, I dont have to be on FA to witness good or evil. Im taking a stand, your just not happy I'm making a fuss about talking about the issues rather then going with the flow.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Actually its the same thing, the main issues are on FA and in public and other places online.
> 
> I dont leave the fandom just because bad things happen. The real reason I asked that question is because the user assumed it was sucha bad place and leaving was the only logical option. Spoiler alert: just because bad inhabits where you live or like doesnt meant you have to hang up your coat and retire for good.
> 
> Hes pretending like leaving is the only abusive thing im not doing. Didnt occur to you FA isnt the fandom but a part of it. Ive been seeing its issues both irl, and on other websites, I dont have to be on FA to witness good or evil. Im taking a stand, your just not happy I'm making a fuss about talking about the issues rather then going with the flow.



You're not taking a stand, you're throwing an impotent tantrum akin to those who complain on Facebook about laws without actually doing anything.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> You're repeating yourself without actually addressing anybody's responses. Please put effort into replying to those who are talking to you. Yakamaru put it very well. Issues cannot be ignored, but as I asked before: How do you know they are ignored and nothing is being done?
> 
> And my earlier question. Why do you want to be in this fandom?




Because Im getting a lot of heat for talking about them. Its a common mentality of deep cult like zealots the fandom has. Its so accepting that people wont assume or think you will call out something they do. Which happened a lot, from the pedohpile I reported, to other illegal things they are shocked, betrayed and upset when they are called out on something illegal.

Because I am here, why is that such an issue for you? We can exist in a very flawed place and still partake in small bits of it. You act like I am begging to leave when Im trying to make what good is here better by talking about the bad. There are places in the fandom that dont have these toxic things which is where I normally reside. But even across the street you see the same issues.

No  I cant throw in the towel because we have degenerates and clowns doing shit. Im gonna change what I can with raising awareness  to it. Im fighting the bad by learning from the bad and submitting good through what ever forms of media I have access to.  When you compare the both, there is a big difference.

Why are you here to question why Im here? Tell me, why arent you on weasyl, FN? Because its irrelevant.


----------



## Yakamaru (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine. Mah man. Bro. Homie. I think a lot of people here *understand* where you are coming from, but it seems it's going to be hard to talk about it when you are being this, well, hysterical about it. 

May I suggest you take a couple minutes off to cool down? Start again, this time with a cooler head?


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Because Im getting a lot of heat for talking about them. Its a common mentality of deep cult like zealots the fandom has. Its so accepting that people wont assume or think you will call out something they do. Which happened a lot, from the pedohpile I reported, to other illegal things they are shocked, betrayed and upset when they are called out on something illegal.
> 
> Because I am here, why is that such an issue for you? We can exist in a very flawed place and still partake in small bits of it. You act like I am begging to leave when Im trying to make what good is here better by talking about the bad. There are places in the fandom that dont have these toxic things which is where I normally reside. But even across the street you see the same issues.
> 
> ...



Let me get a little more personal and get down to your level. Something you might understand. You are adding to the problem and making this fandom worse. You are a behemoth of impotent rage. Please leave.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> You're not taking a stand, you're throwing an impotent tantrum akin to those who complain on Facebook about laws without actually doing anything.



Actually talking and voicing my opnion, what ive seen lived and witness if the first slow step on the issues the fandom does have. This isnt a FB rant, this isnt me crying, this is me telling you all there are issues and you don't want to hear them.

Ignorance is your choice. Being open and talking about these issues and why they aren't changing is mine. This only started because I said something all these childminded furries dont like. When you think of it, they are like children. Big costumes, doing strange things all day, playful. Taking a stand means talking, expressing, this isnt a Navy seal copy pasta post. Grow up and get out there, tell me what you see. Ive done the same, why cant you?

Its very easy to talk about laws. You see, the community is an online one, very slim picking for what legal actions you can do but we see the fandom with its pants down in the spotlight, irl again and again. So tell me, what laws or legal actions have you taken to make the fandom better?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 29, 2017)

I think at this point it is a far assessment that a person making many generalizations about the fandom, failing to back up those claims, and making many remarks that seem downright false, should no longer be taken seriously.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Ciderfine. Mah man. Bro. Homie. I think a lot of people here *understand* where you are coming from, but it seems it's going to be hard to talk about it when you are being this, well, hysterical about it.
> 
> May I suggest you take a couple minutes off to cool down? Start again, this time with a cooler head?



I actually am pretty cool rn tbh. I dunno why people think im coming off as drunk hot head when writing responses is fun. Its why I linger on here so much. Its peaceful.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> I actually am pretty cool rn tbh. I dunno why people think im coming off as drunk hot head when writing responses is fun. Its why I linger on here so much. Its peaceful.



You’re as terrible a liar as you are a debater.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> I think at this point it is a far assessment that a person making many generalizations about the fandom, failing to back up those claims, and making many remarks that seem downright false, should no longer be taken seriously.



Ive given you AC 17, RC, Ive given you my personal experiences. I have to ask what more do you want. Or more importantly, is there any proof you will accept that there is an issue.

Do you want a active CIA list of post offenders? I think in order to fix the issues of the fandom that no one talks about or wants to hear, we need to each go out and observe and think a lil bit about what people in the fandom do. Lets spot the evil, and make a note of it. That sounds more progressive.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> You’re as terrible a liar as you are a debater.


 Im p sure Im not lying.
You cant debate furries that wont change only argue with them. I mean...its online.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Jarren said:


> Because one requires a major financial investment, government approval and vetting, and uprooting of your life and massive logistical planning, the other involves not being involved in a hobby.
> 
> Leaving a fandom =\= moving country. Very bad attempt at comparison.



Also didnt everyone on the left say the same thing "We moving to canada" So why is staying a bad thing If im trying to bring light to some issues and enjoy the good?


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Im p sure Im not lying.
> You cant debate furries that wont change only argue with them. I mean...its online.



Wrong. You can be civil about your issues and attempt to understand the other stuff de of the debate, of which you have done neither.

You are not enjoying the good, you are enjoying the negativity.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Ive given you AC 17, RC, Ive given you my personal experiences. I have to ask what more do you want. Or more importantly, is there any proof you will accept that there is an issue.
> 
> Do you want a active CIA list of post offenders? I think in order to fix the issues of the fandom that no one talks about or wants to hear, we need to each go out and observe and think a lil bit about what people in the fandom do. Lets spot the evil, and make a note of it. That sounds more progressive.



The problem is that you seem fixated only on the negative, which makes it seem like you believe the entire fandom is nothing but a bunch of degenerates who form furfag piles at very con or furmeet.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> The problem is that you seem fixated only on the negative, which makes it seem like you believe the entire fandom is nothing but a bunch of degenerates who form furfag piles at very con or furmeet.




Your right, I do because we always have the negative side of the furry fandom everywhere you go. Its the calling card of the community, how others see it all. No one will take the fandom seriously when the issues keep happening and nothing cuts some of the issues off. The negative side takes the spotlight and screams louder.

Id like to talk about the good but I feel and know criticism works better than praise.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Your right, I do because we always have the negative side of the furry fandom everywhere you go. Its the calling card of the community, how others see it all. No one will take the fandom seriously when the issues keep happening and nothing cuts some of the issues off. The negative side takes the spotlight and screams louder.
> 
> Id like to talk about the good but I feel and know criticism works better than praise.



Then have at it. You're not criticizing, you're defaming. Learn the difference please.


----------



## Tao (Dec 29, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Your right, I do because we always have the negative side of the furry fandom everywhere you go. Its the calling card of the community, how others see it all. No one will take the fandom seriously when the issues keep happening and nothing cuts some of the issues off. The negative side takes the spotlight and screams louder.
> 
> Id like to talk about the good but I feel and know criticism works better than praise.



Do something other than complain or shut up. Nobody wants to hear it and you’re not doing a great service by exposing the negative. Everyone knows about it already. You’re slow.


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> Then have at it. You're not criticizing, you're defaming. Learn the difference please.



What really is the difference when this stuff does happen. I think this community is a bad place because I have run into dangerous vile people, we see exmaples like this online, conventions gone sour. The fame of this place is party party party, no accepting consequences. So I do feel defaming this place is a good place to start to tell the world "this is not a costume cute party"


----------



## Ciderfine (Dec 29, 2017)

Tao said:


> Do something other than complain or shut up. Nobody wants to hear it and you’re not doing a great service by exposing the negative. Everyone knows about it already. You’re slow.



What you said shows you are all not willing to change. Ive reported users, filed FBI reports, followed the rules of being logical with common sense. What have you done? Your really not up to speed if people dont let me openly talk about  its issues and call me out for being a hater, giving fake reasons. No, your not up to speed if people wont let me talk about bad things, thats called denial, your the slow ones not really changing, screaming im a cry baby for having an opinion with the things ive seen and lived.

How about you prove the fandom is good by doing something about these issues instead of letting it settle like dust. Prove the media wrong, prove AC this year wrong, prove RC wrong. Prove it all wrong. Prove me wrong by not being upset about what one person whos seen bad things is not the end to your world. Prove this all wrong by accepting criticism, and stop acting like a twitter user.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Dec 29, 2017)

I've received a number of reports about attacks and hostility in this thread that are dragging it off-topic and creating an overall super-negative vibe.  

I will not close it down outright, because I see some users are trying to keep it on track and voicing their opinions on the intended topic.  But I have applied reply bans to minimize the derailment.


----------



## Simo (Dec 29, 2017)

Once my PR firm takes over, the fandom's image will be saved!

Cute, adorable fursuited furries will be dispatched across the country, in cities and towns, large and small, doing good deeds, like planting trees, picking up litter (with one of those pointy stick things), feeding the homeless at soup-kitchens, visiting kids in the hospital, keeping folks company in lonely old folks homes, and digging ditches in India, like Mother Teresa.

Not only will there be all the actual impact and word of mouth publicity, but videos will be made, TV ads, you tube clips, magazine and newspaper ads, and an all out media coverage campaign on local and national network news.

Once my PR campaign takes hold, our troubles will be over.


----------



## aloveablebunny (Dec 29, 2017)

Simo said:


> Once my PR firm takes over, the fandom's image will be saved!
> 
> Cute, adorable fursuited furries will be dispatched across the country, in cities and towns, large and small, doing good deeds, like planting trees, picking up litter (with one of those pointy stick things), feeding the homeless at soup-kitchens, visiting kids in the hospital, keeping folks company in lonely old folks homes, and digging ditches in India, like Mother Teresa.
> 
> ...


<3 <3 this thread sure needed the positivity!


----------



## Simo (Dec 29, 2017)

aloveablebunny said:


> <3 <3 this thread sure needed the positivity!



Thanks! I was joking/exaggerating, in ways, but many of these might not be bad ideas, for furries to do, actually.


----------



## DarkoKavinsky (Dec 29, 2017)

I think any fandom has a negative perceived image. Anime you have either the weebo trash or the guy in a white shirt and glasses with a dokimurka (I know I misspelt that.) For the motorcycle culture they'd have you think they're all biker gangs selling heorin and whipping people with chains. Vw culture is a bunch of dried up hippies banging in rusty old vans. Hotrod culture was seen as greasers running around stealing yo' daughters. Rat rods are seen as social degenerates who come from mad max films.
The Linux scene is seen as a bunch of hackers. Free software movement people are seen as communists, the list could go on and on.

Me I'm mostly Irish so I use that stereotype of me drinking heavily and causing fights as a joke.

But I'm being 100% serious here.

Ciderfine. I think you loved the fandom at one point. But I think you're letting a few negative experiences ruin your expectation of the world. I'm a cynical bastard through and through. But I was mugged and assaulted at a young age. Used to see eight fights a day, stared down another lad with a knife. Whilst I hate where I grew up and I have a strong tendency to oppose people who simply ignore regions like where I grew up and bring up certain issues don't exist.

I don't let it affect me as much.  I don't take it to heart. This place may be an derailed dumpster fire a few times which causes the mod to lose a few hairs, but it's OUR dumpster fire. it's not a bad community.

I am really sorry you had a few extreme scenarios that have tainted your judgement. I truly am.


----------



## Yuka (Dec 30, 2017)

That's the reason why I usually don't create threads. Sorry for starting another Fire (I guess I should've expected it though)^^°




Ciderfine said:


> The main reason why this topic was created is because whoever wrote this was angry that the fandom isnt the wonderland they wanted it to be. We do need more onpions and peoples accounts and stories to tell you the fandom isnt magical.


I am/was in enough fandoms to know that not everything is rainbows and sunshine, I was just surprised over how...extreme it is here in comparision. Sorry if this may come over as offensive but, like others already mentioned, it sounds like you're just speaking from some kind of bad experience you've made at some point.


----------



## lupi900 (Dec 30, 2017)

Yuka said:


> I am/was in enough fandoms to know that not everything is rainbows and sunshine, I was just surprised over how...extreme it is here in comparision. Sorry if this may come over as offensive but, like others already mentioned, it sounds like you're just speaking from some kind of bad experience you've made at some point.



Just for FYI we have no idea if there bad experience is true or not, This forum in its 1.0 state was infamous. For having users blow up or cry on how this fandom ruined them, then run off when its clear all of it was made up excuses to cry about us.

Or just put them on ignore since debating with them is beyond worthless. This kinda why i like /r/Furry bit more users like this will run off after 3 posts when they get -10 karma & called out more bluntly.


----------



## backpawscratcher (Dec 30, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> When you think of it, they are like children. Big costumes, doing strange things all day, playful. Taking a stand means talking, expressing, this isnt a Navy seal copy pasta post. Grow up and get out there, tell me what you see. Ive done the same, why cant you?


Doesn’t work that way though mate.  Truly mature people realise it’s not all about them, and are happy to let others do their own thing.  Including play if that’s what they want to do.  You don’t get to pretend you’re the most mature person in the room by pissing on other peoples’ chips.


----------



## Uluri (Dec 30, 2017)

Yuka said:


> Okay, so there's this one thing that I've noticed almost instantly after I joined this forum: many people here are speaking very negative of the fandom to the point I was asking myself why they're even here in the first place. I was really surprised tbh because even though there's some drama in the german area too, I've never seen that much negativity and not from so many people.​



I noticed that myself, too. This forum seemed to have only recently got so incredibly toxic to itself the past few months. Used to be able to have a general conversation all the time with people in the forum without someone hissing about how horrible furries are, or how much they hate being here.


----------



## -..Legacy..- (Dec 30, 2017)

Uluri said:


> I noticed that myself, too. This forum seemed to have only recently got so incredibly toxic to itself the past few months. Used to be able to have a general conversation all the time with people in the forum without someone hissing about how horrible furries are, or how much they hate being here.



The trolls come and go.  You just have to deal with them during their normally short tenure.


----------



## Crimcyan (Dec 30, 2017)

-..Legacy..- said:


> The trolls come and go.  You just have to deal with them during their normally short tenure.


Unless if the troll is me, then you gotta deal with me for a loooooooong time.... or untill I get banned again xD


----------



## Jarren (Dec 30, 2017)

I will agree that I've noticed the negativity and vitriol in general (on these forums at least, not so much the fandom as a whole) has increased markedly in the last three to four months. I could finger point at the users I'd put the blame on, but that's against policy, rude, and would involve sinking to their level. Honestly, it seems to stem from individuals finding problems that only they seem to take issue with or creating problems they can take issue with, along with deciding they know how others feel and decide that they must take offense for others and speak for "the majority." As if anyone on here, regardless of their opinion/belief/position has the power to speak for others. You speak for yourself, or your friend group at best. Problems come up when people decide they are suddenly the grand moral arbiter. Accept that we disagree and perhaps we'll all get along better? And now, to toot my own horn; you guys don't see me starting shit (often) do you? Just chill.


----------



## Jarren (Dec 30, 2017)

Ciderfine said:


> Also didnt everyone on the left say the same thing "We moving to canada" So why is staying a bad thing If im trying to bring light to some issues and enjoy the good?


I did find it funny how many people said they were gonna leave the country. Found it funnier when Canadian border patrol started rounding up people that crossed o illegally and brought them back.

Anyway, I never said it's a bad thing that you're bringing up the shortcomings of the fandom and such. Just that you made a bad comparison. In fact, I applaud you for staying and trying to bring light to a problem you see. I may not agree, but more power to you for trying.


----------



## DarkoKavinsky (Dec 30, 2017)

Every fandom has bad. I can point out fifteen things wrong with every group I am part of. 

For example  the  vw ratrod community is ever encouraging yet there's a canonization process where they give you shit, you dish it out back, insult a few people have laughs crack open a bottle.They're a bit rough,old, and grumbly but they're nice, and a good group of people.

The cons of this community are definitely the bizzare odd outliers. You know the infamous crap you hear about, the odd fetish crap or even the people who do nsfw crap in suits. That's a black mark against everything.

However, as much as that crap is traumatic and confusing. The good outweighs a few freaks. You have the most accepting community ever. Seriously I've seen people accept the weirdest things, but hey, hell I've asked for the most scatterball requests and I've had people flood me with artwork. It's funny. 

People here are accepting and open. Don't like the fringe shit freak you out.

Usually the freaks are freaks before they're furry. I've been sent enough horrifying blogs by mortified to know that. 

Every place has its up and downs. Usually it's a hand full of people you realize light the dumpster fires. Other forums I'm used to are used to calling them out. I don't think that's how that works here, but hey. Stick around for a few days you'll see whose who.

Hell they accepted me here. I haven't been smacked down or banned yet.


----------



## Open_Mind (Dec 30, 2017)

Simo said:


> Once my PR campaign takes hold, our troubles will be over.


Reporting for duty, Simo!
Where do I sign up??
(warning: reckless optimism ahead)

óÓÒò


----------



## Simo (Dec 30, 2017)

Open_Mind said:


> Reporting for duty, Simo!
> Where do I sign up??
> (warning: reckless optimism ahead)
> 
> óÓÒò



Aw, I'll have to come up with a sign up thing! But might be nice, to actually do some fursuited good deeds, come to think of it : )


----------



## BahgDaddy (Dec 30, 2017)

backpawscratcher said:


> pissing on other peoples’ chips.



I'm sure that's on FA somewhere :/


----------



## backpawscratcher (Dec 31, 2017)

BahgDaddy said:


> I'm sure that's on FA somewhere :/


Haha.  Yep, highly likely


----------



## DarkoKavinsky (Dec 31, 2017)

backpawscratcher said:


> Haha.  Yep, highly likely


I'm still waiting for the universe to give me the "Chainsaws for hand" fetish that Stuart Ashens mentioned awhile back.

I think many people just draw crap because they see that nobody has. 

I find the best medicine for negativity is to point out it's flaws and laugh at it. 

just going with the flow helps a lot.


----------



## Crimcyan (Dec 31, 2017)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> For example  the  vw ratrod community is ever encouraging yet there's a canonization process where they give you shit, you dish it out back, insult a few people have laughs crack open a bottle.They're a bit rough,old, and grumbly but they're nice, and a good group of people.


Don't Chop pre-57 beetle roofs!


----------



## DarkoKavinsky (Dec 31, 2017)

Crimcyan said:


> Don't Chop pre-57 beetle roofs!



Most of the bugs that get cut up are fucked. The purists won't touch them with a ten foot pole. Even the KDF mangler made from a I believe a 1950 bug had so much rust the purists chalked it up as JUNK Literally the channel was due to HOW MUCH rust there was. 99% of the oval grafts I've seen come from ex baja's that are missing their original front and rear H and finger aprons So to purists Fucked.. My 1958 is a car most purists would consider a bastard and parts. thats why it has an australian airplane engine in it with an early porsche 356a dizzy, kaldron carbs and the old school oil cooler over the rear shroud. the carbs are topped off with original 356C knect aircleaners. I have a porsche 356 shroud that was bastardized I plan to hopefully get in there one day.
Here's the 1958 a 30 year old barn find. Yes I found it like that. Only difference is I added on a handle after the latch broke free from the old welds.
Warning VW picture. 



Spoiler










To you give an idea. here's my 1968 a car I was literally told to Scrap it and keep the engine. the prior owners injected expanding foam and fiberglassed over the heater channels.
Warning really off topic and picture heavy 



Spoiler























Had to resconstruct everything. The heater channels came from a 1972 super beetle OG no rust from colorado. The baja blue parts came from a nice 1966 bug that the PO fucked over that I got for 850 which I sold the titled pan for 700.



*hopes this post doesn't get him in trouble with the mods*


----------



## Crimcyan (Dec 31, 2017)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> Most of the bugs that get cut up are fucked. The purists won't them with a ten foot pole. Even the KDF mangler made from a I believe a 1950 bug had so much rust the purists chalked it up as JUNK Literally the channel was due to HOW MUCH rust there was. 99% of the oval grafts I've seen come from ex baja's that are missing their original front and rear H and finger aprons So to purists Fucked.. My 1958 is a car most purists would consider a bastard and parts. thats why it has an australian airplane engine in it with an early porsche 356a dizzy, kaldron carbs and the old school oil cooler over the rear shroud. the carbs are topped off with original 356C knect aircleaners. I have a porsche 356 shroud that was bastardized I plan to hopefully get in there one day.
> Here's the 1958 a 30 year old barn find. Yes I found it like that. Only difference is I added on a handle after the latch broke free from the old welds.
> Warning VW picture.
> 
> ...


Nice beetle's you have! I'm currently doing a 57 project, has the orginal pan, the roof from the top of the oval down to the front windshield has been replaced due to a tree falling on it, it has a 1600cc engine in it, and it's been lowered quite a bit. It's not a purist car at the moment beacuse of that stuff, and it will only get less and less of a purist car as I work on it. Im not a big fan of stock beetles.
Here's the only pics I have of it at the moment 


Spoiler: Pic


----------



## sarcolopter (Jan 2, 2018)

Yuka said:


> I was talking about how a good amount of people here are talking about their own fandom like it's one of the worst things in existence.



well it is the worst thing in existence so


----------



## Massan Otter (Jan 3, 2018)

I'm pretty new to investigating the fandom, and so far there are things I like about it, but a few things that make me more ambivalent.  Part of that is about the sexual and/or fetish element to a lot of the artwork out there, even the nominally SFW stuff.  I'm comfortable with that stuff existing (within certain boundaries of what is healthy and legal obviously), but if you're just looking for the fun, imaginative, escapist side of things it's hard not to feel like you're wading through swathes of other peoples kink trying to find it.  I have my own bits of fairly niche (and non fur-related) kink going on which it's taken me years to be accepting of.  Obviously this is not the place to discuss those, but it does mean I try not to judge other peoples.  So I'm not so much thinking "this is degenerate" as asking myself "is this my scene?". 
I suspect the answer would be to talk a little about what I _do _like and see if anyone can point me towards artists, comics, books etc that might be more up my street, rather than browsing randomly around the main FA page and being weirded-out repeatedly!


----------



## Corrupt-Canine (Jan 7, 2018)

Interesting but somewhat obvious reason for this is well people are naturally drawn towards the negative. Ever wonder why things like drama shows, rant series, movie critics of bad movies, cringe compilations, and other stuff is so popular (take Nostalgia Critic and Mr. Enter for example)? Because people like to accentuate the negative, and it's entertaining. This phenomenon is seen everywhere, not just fandoms. 
Or at least that's what I believe.


----------



## lupi900 (Jan 7, 2018)

Corrupt-Canine said:


> Interesting but somewhat obvious reason for this is well people are naturally drawn towards the negative. Ever wonder why things like drama shows, rant series, movie critics of bad movies, cringe compilations, and other stuff is so popular (take Nostalgia Critic and Mr. Enter for example)? Because people like to accentuate the negative, and it's entertaining. This phenomenon is seen everywhere, not just fandoms.
> Or at least that's what I believe.



There difference between accentuate the negative than some asshole going "Fuuk Furries" just get the sweet views/likes from ignorant assholes. This pretty much why humor sites like Something Awful is hated at reddit, since the owner got shit for attacking a art game about overcoming bullies with maturity of a middle school bully.


----------



## Corrupt-Canine (Jan 7, 2018)

People who hate them in that way are likely minors that are nowhere near completing high school, wannabe edgelords thinking everything is "Cringe! *dab* ewe Xd!" Honestly you should ignore them, they hate everything that's not normal to them. 
I don't find many channels that just blatantly hate furries just to get views.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 4, 2018)

Lcs said:


> A number of people, in general, are "degenerates," socially inept or criminals. It's really not unique to furries.
> 
> The only time I hear about this behaviour in the fandom is when it's talked about on this forum, and I've noticed that it's spoken about at a surprising frequency given how much of a non-issue it is.



I have a hard time believing, with as sexually deviant as the fandom has proven itself to be or be able to contain, that it can simply be brushed of as an "everyone's issue" sort of thing.

The reason I'm so hard on the furry fandom is because I've experienced it's bullshit as both an insider and outsider.  I think people downplay many of the issues that drags the fandom down on its face.  It's upfront approach on sexuality; not just here but in general with furries.  It's tolerance toward more deviant fetishes doesn't help.  I know FA doesn't allow cub, but I did come across rape porn in it, and I was just bullshitting on some random person's page.

What I usually say is that... It's not a surprise that outsiders consider the fandom weird or even decadent.  And it's something I think only other furries can help resolve.


----------



## Sagt (Feb 4, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I have a hard time believing, with as sexually deviant as the fandom has proven itself to be or be able to contain, that it can simply be brushed of as an "everyone's issue" sort of thing.
> 
> The reason I'm so hard on the furry fandom is because I've experienced it's bullshit as both an insider and outsider.  I think people downplay many of the issues that drags the fandom down on its face.  It's upfront approach on sexuality; not just here but in general with furries.  It's tolerance toward more deviant fetishes doesn't help.  I know FA doesn't allow cub, but I did come across rape porn in it, and I was just bullshitting on some random person's page.


Well, I'm not entirely sure about what you mean about sexually deviant. If you're referring to people with fetishes in general, then I don't see why this is an issue. Like, why does it matter so much that it has to be constantly looked down on by some people in this fandom as being "degenerate" behaviour?

Anyway, I actually had in mind sex offenders and soon-to-be sex offenders, because that's what I thought Yakamaru was referring to (although using a weasel word like "degenerate" does leave a lot to the imagination on what he was referring to). I don't think there's any evidence (significant or not) that furries are more inclined towards that sort of behaviour than other groups. This is why it seems kind of odd when so many people call it out, since it gives the impression that it's more prevalent than it actually is.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> What I usually say is that... It's not a surprise that outsiders consider the fandom weird or even decadent.  And it's something I think only other furries can help resolve.


I really don't believe that non-furries think of furries as being rapists or pedophiles on a mass scale. As I see it, most non-furries don't even know what a furry is. And, from my experience, the people that dislike the sub-culture most frequently dislike us because they learned about us from hearsay, and got the impression that we were a fetish about having sex in fursuits or something like that. We shouldn't be catering to people like that. That's on them for being ignorant and closed-minded.


----------



## Massan Otter (Feb 4, 2018)

Lcs said:


> using a weasel word...



You make some good points, but let's not be mean about weasels!


----------



## Baalf (Feb 4, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I have a hard time believing, with as sexually deviant as the fandom has proven itself to be or be able to contain, that it can simply be brushed of as an "everyone's issue" sort of thing.
> 
> The reason I'm so hard on the furry fandom is because I've experienced it's bullshit as both an insider and outsider.  I think people downplay many of the issues that drags the fandom down on its face.  It's upfront approach on sexuality; not just here but in general with furries.  It's tolerance toward more deviant fetishes doesn't help.  I know FA doesn't allow cub, but I did come across rape porn in it, and I was just bullshitting on some random person's page.
> 
> What I usually say is that... It's not a surprise that outsiders consider the fandom weird or even decadent.  And it's something I think only other furries can help resolve.



The problem isn't that it's ignored, in fact quite the opposite. The problem is that it's heavily magnified. A lot of the porn furries draw is harmless and, again, most fandoms are just as bad, including fandoms involving human: but no one pays attention to fandoms of strictly human franchises. They always zoom in on furries and fandoms of anything dealing with talking animals. It's because humans, in general, have become so obsessed with their own species that they will turn the blind eye to any wrongdoings in one fandom and advertise the problems of others.

The image also isn't helped by people, supposedly furries themselves,  who try to pretend that we are these horrible degenerate human beings. Instead of trying to set the reccord straight, they try to make the image even worse, which just makes people hate furries more and not only will this refelct on the fandom, but even the furries that don't commit any of the things often complained about will be demonized, and sometimes will basically be bullied out of liking certain things because people have made them feel that worthless as a furry that they cannot go on being a furry.

I feel like the negativity is a huge problem, but so far it's being fought with even more negativity. At this rate, furries will always be despised, no matter what we do, thanks to people feeling the need to demonize us when other groups of people are just as bad.


----------



## Massan Otter (Feb 4, 2018)

It does seem like a few people here use terms like degenerate to mean anybody with a slightly different set of kinks or preferences from them, and I feel like that type of language within the fandom might not help the broader perception of it.  I'm of the opinion that most kinks are fine (apart from a couple of particularly unhealthy or abusive examples) as long as people take care over where and how they are discussed, and then there are many who aren't here for sexual reasons at all.


----------



## ChapterAquila92 (Feb 4, 2018)

On a serious note, you'd think that it'd be common sense that, if you go looking for negativity, you'll find it no matter how contrived an example it may be. As it so happens however, not only will some people go out of their way to look for negativity, but failing that they will conjure up their own negativity in its absence just to prove themselves right in retrospect.


----------



## backpawscratcher (Feb 4, 2018)

Massan Otter said:


> It does seem like a few people here use terms like degenerate to mean anybody with a slightly different set of kinks or preferences from them, and I feel like that type of language within the fandom might not help the broader perception of it.  I'm of the opinion that most kinks are fine (apart from a couple of particularly unhealthy or abusive examples) as long as people take care over where and how they are discussed, and then there are many who aren't here for sexual reasons at all.


My kinks towards furry stuff were pretty light to begin with (although they were there), but weirdly they have lessened away since I’ve been interacting more with furries.  It’s like a much broader view of the fandom has opened up that I find so much more rewarding.  This to me is now totally about friendship and having fun. 

Not that I’m down on what others get out of it of course, it’s just weird how quickly it’s changed for me.


----------



## Massan Otter (Feb 4, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> My kinks towards furry stuff were pretty light to begin with (although they were there), but weirdly they have lessened away since I’ve been interacting more with furries.  It’s like a much broader view of the fandom has opened up that I find so much more rewarding.  This to me is now totally about friendship and having fun.
> 
> Not that I’m down on what others get out of it of course, it’s just weird how quickly it’s changed for me.



Yes, I've got something similar going on.  I mean, I've certainly been curious enough to have a look at what's out there, but the only stuff of a more suggestive nature that I'm really enjoying is quite light, borderline SFW stuff that makes me smile more than any other response. 
I do have my kinks, and don't mind talking about them in an appropriate context, but I'm finding their intersection with my furry interests is not large.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 4, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I have a hard time believing, with as sexually deviant as the fandom has proven itself to be or be able to contain, that it can simply be brushed of as an "everyone's issue" sort of thing.
> 
> The reason I'm so hard on the furry fandom is because I've experienced it's bullshit as both an insider and outsider.  I think people downplay many of the issues that drags the fandom down on its face.  It's upfront approach on sexuality; not just here but in general with furries.  It's tolerance toward more deviant fetishes doesn't help.  I know FA doesn't allow cub, but I did come across rape porn in it, and I was just bullshitting on some random person's page.
> 
> What I usually say is that... It's not a surprise that outsiders consider the fandom weird or even decadent.  And it's something I think only other furries can help resolve.



There's nothing wrong with being sexually open and accepting, and in fact it's extremely healthy. We just have to make sure that we talk clearly and openly about these things and make sure that we endorse ethical modes of sexual expression.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 4, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> There's nothing wrong with being sexually open and accepting, and in fact it's extremely healthy. We just have to make sure that we talk clearly and openly about these things and make sure that we endorse ethical modes of sexual expression.



That brings up an entirely different issue.  No other fandom, except maybe some anime fandoms, is so promiscuous, or so openly promiscuous.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 4, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> That brings up an entirely different issue.  No other fandom, except maybe some anime fandoms, is so promiscuous, or so openly promiscuous.



Huh? Why is that an issue?


----------



## Simo (Feb 4, 2018)

Massan Otter said:


> You make some good points, but let's not be mean about weasels!



Yeah, they're really cute, and wonder why they get picked on!


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 4, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Huh? Why is that an issue?



Well, in terms of imagery, nothing much.  It's just average porn, which porn has its own problems as well, and I'm guilty in participating in porn, but it doesn't have the same problems as general promiscuity.

Promiscuity has its problems because I think casual sex is a contradiction; there's nothing casual about sex.  It's a pair-bonding experience, and humans are fundamentally pair-bonding creatures.  It also doesn't help that homosexual men have shown to be more promiscuous on average.  That's ignoring the danger of disease.

"Modern people like to think that there's nothing dangerous about sex, and that's the stupidest thing one could hypothesize, because everything about sex is dangerous.  It's dangerous emotionally, it's dangerous socially, it's dangerous to the risk of pregnancy, and it's dangerous to the possibility of sickness; that's a major one!  When aids emerged in the 1980s, that could have easily killed all of us.  The fact that it didn't was wonderful, but it did kill millions of people.  So it was no joke, it was a big deal.  Aids mutated to take advantage of promiscuity, so the relationship between sexual behavior and the transmission of disease is actually mediated at the biological level." - Jordan Peterson

 The furry fandom has been hit hard with the social consequences of promiscuity and casual sex.  Because of the spikes of decadent sexual behavior, all the outsiders and even insiders see in the fandom is orgies at fur cons, pedophiles on the internet, and animal rapists.  So there's no doubt in my mind that promiscuity and the openness of sexual behavior has led to this social outcast situation.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 4, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Well, in terms of imagery, nothing much.  It's just average porn, which porn has its own problems as well, and I'm guilty in participating in porn, but it doesn't have the same problems as general promiscuity.



What are these "problems" presented by promiscuity?



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Promiscuity has its problems because I think casual sex is a contradiction; there's nothing casual about sex.  It's a pair-bonding experience, and humans are fundamentally pair-bonding creatures.  It also doesn't help that homosexual men have shown to be more promiscuous on average.  That's ignoring the danger of disease.



That might be your feelings on the matter, but I don't think history or sociology or biology back up the idea of humans being a "fundamentally" pair bonding species. Our history is filled with polyandry, polygamy, and promiscuity. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> "Modern people like to think that there's nothing dangerous about sex, and that's the stupidest thing one could hypothesize, because everything about sex is dangerous.  It's dangerous emotionally, it's dangerous socially, it's dangerous to the risk of pregnancy, and it's dangerous to the possibility of sickness; that's a major one!  When aids emerged in the 1980s, that could have easily killed all of us.  The fact that it didn't was wonderful, but it did kill millions of people.  So it was no joke, it was a big deal.  Aids mutated to take advantage of promiscuity, so the relationship between sexual behavior and the transmission of disease is actually mediated at the biological level." - Jordan Peterson



I don't think this Jordan person knew too much about biology, or even thought sex was a good idea. I'd even be willing to be he was a Christian; Christians hate sex traditionally. There's no indication that AIDS would have killed us all off, and that's a pretty outrageous claim, in my opinion. 

What's even more dangerous emotionally than having sex is being afraid of sex and never having any. That can send normal, healthy people for a loop. There's nothing wrong, or dirty, about sex, we just make it that way, because traditions and religion and stuff.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> The furry fandom has been hit hard with the social consequences of promiscuity and casual sex.  Because of the spikes of decadent sexual behavior, all the outsiders and even insiders see in the fandom is orgies at fur cons, pedophiles on the internet, and animal rapists.  So there's no doubt in my mind that promiscuity and the openness of sexual behavior has led to this social outcast situation.



That's once again an unfair targeting of t he furry fandom and most definitely not exclusive to furries. It might be true that they're promiscuous, but that's hardly unusual in this age, but they're quite open about it, which is a bit unusual. And what the media says about us is immaterial, everyone know s the media likes blowing things out of proportion for a juicy story.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 5, 2018)

Partial retraction: I won't say Jordan's views on sex, in that comment, are healthy, and are in fact debatable, but he was other good points and bears looking into, so I won't throw him out with the bathwater.

www.theatlantic.com: Why Can't People Hear What Jordan Peterson Is Actually Saying?


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> What are these "problems" presented by promiscuity?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would disagree on nearly every point made here, because I don't think you can differentiate "sex" and "promiscuity" from each other, at least, it doesn't seem that way based on what you're saying.

If you ever take a serious glance as a religion like Christianity, you would know that the Bible actually supports sexual acts with a committed partner; someone whom both share these experiences with.  I don't know any serious Christian who would argue that sex is something to be feared.  Thus I think you seem to think there's no difference between sex and sexual promiscuity, as though in order to enjoy sex you must enjoy it promiscuously.  So the idea that Christians hate sex traditionally is false.  There's nothing less true than that statement for anyone who took the time to study the Bible or even grew up with it next to their bed.

Secondly, you avoided the argument by going after the vise versa situation; by claiming that NOT having sex was more dangerous than actually having sex, which I also think is false, because not having sex with people does not normally destabilize people to such a degree that it makes life unbearable.  There is a point to be made about sexual repression, but just because you forgo immediate pleasure doesn't mean you're sexually repressed by any means.  JP has a video about it:






Furthermore, I would like to point out that polygamy and promiscuity in older times were more required to have either more sexual partners or have more frequent partners because of the innate benefit of children.  Civilization needed to stand on its own feet and the requirement for more wives meant the need to take care of more children.  I would also like to point out that back then, before monogamy began taking hold, was that back then most women were treated more as symbols of status than as beings.  A king with ten wives showed himself to be more powerful because he had more wives, among other factors of course, while lower in the rungs of society people had one or maybe two wives but many children.  So I don't think we are reverting to times where women were considered arbitrary symbols of status nor should we look to that as good examples of how we should approach sexual activity, since, after all, it was only that way out of necessity or out of shows of power.  Its true that society did get a little more promiscuous, thanks to the Sexual Revolution and the mainstream integration of LGBT, but not nearly as much as it has been in more ancient times, and I doubt it will return to that point at any time.

I also think you're wrong about this age being promiscuous.  Ironically, the media shows promiscuity often in their movies and TV shows, in fact I think a show tried to get away with regular orgies, think it was called Sense or something.  It was a weird show, canceled several months ago.  But it just goes to show that media isn't backing tradition by any means.  I forgot who did the study, but the most recent generation is showing to be more conservative than the last two generations.  I believe it was 60/40.  I'll have to look it up again.  Point is, I don't think it's not unusual for this age to be promiscuous.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 5, 2018)

Damnit, why are there so many conservatives here? XD



ResolutionBlaze said:


> I would disagree on nearly every point made here, because I don't think you can differentiate "sex" and "promiscuity" from each other, at least, it doesn't seem that way based on what you're saying.



Okay, first you said, "I don't think you can differentiate "sex" and "promiscuity,"" and then "you seem to think there's no difference between sex and sexual promiscuity." This seems contradictory.

And no, I know sex and promiscuity are different things, please, I know the English language reasonably well. Promiscuity refers to being sexually open, having lots of partners, having sex frequently with different people, etc. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> If you ever take a serious glance as a religion like Christianity, you would know that the Bible actually supports sexual acts with a committed partner; someone whom both share these experiences with.  I don't know any serious Christian who would argue that sex is something to be feared.  Thus I think you seem to think there's no difference between sex and sexual promiscuity, as though in order to enjoy sex you must enjoy it promiscuously.



Eh, I used to be a fairly diehard Christian, I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that that religion DOES NOT like sex. As soon as Christianity emerged onto the world stage, you saw massive persecution for LGBTs and other types of sexual orientations. And as far the the Bible is concerned, sex is supposed to occur only between husband and wife. You're not even supposed to THINK about other people when you're married, sexually. So trying to convince me that Christianity promotes a healthy view of sex is hilarious.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> So the idea that Christians hate sex traditionally is false.  There's nothing less true than that statement for anyone who took the time to study the Bible or even grew up with it next to their bed.



Like I said in my previous paragraph, the Bible does not promote healthy sexuality. Hell, it barely touches on it, aside from condemning everything that's not exclusively between husband and wife - although hey, Solomon's concubines were okay. You know how many Christians went cross eyed if I joked about King Solomon? Yeah. They like to ignore that. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Secondly, you avoided the argument by going after the vise versa situation; by claiming that NOT having sex was more dangerous than actually having sex, which I also think is false, because not having sex with people does not normally destabilize people to such a degree that it makes life unbearable.  There is a point to be made about sexual repression, but just because you forgo immediate pleasure doesn't mean you're sexually repressed by any means.  JP has a video about it:



It might be vice versa, but it's not wrong. You're making it seem like promiscuity is a bad thing, which is my primary bone of contention, and further that furries are particularly prone to this behavior. 

Also, these arguments remind me of things I'd hear in southern Missouri a lot. It's a lot of, "Well, just don't have sex," and then no one talks about sex unless they just watched a Carl's Jr. hamburger ad on TV. "Yo, Fred! Let's go grab a burger, 'cause this gal got REALLY excited by that mayonnaise!"



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Furthermore, I would like to point out that polygamy and promiscuity in older times were more required to have either more sexual partners or have more frequent partners because of the innate benefit of children.  Civilization needed to stand on its own feet and the requirement for more wives meant the need to take care of more children.  I would also like to point out that back then, before monogamy began taking hold, was that back then most women were treated more as symbols of status than as beings.  A king with ten wives showed himself to be more powerful because he had more wives, among other factors of course, while lower in the rungs of society people had one or maybe two wives but many children.  So I don't think we are reverting to times where women were considered arbitrary symbols of status nor should we look to that as good examples of how we should approach sexual activity, since, after all, it was only that way out of necessity or out of shows of power.  Its true that society did get a little more promiscuous, thanks to the Sexual Revolution and the mainstream integration of LGBT, but not nearly as much as it has been in more ancient times, and I doubt it will return to that point at any time.



Well, the history would be quite fun to talk about, but I'll cut through this block of text and get to the chase again: I don't think furries are _especially_ promiscuous, I think they're just very open about it, and I tend society is tending that way as well, and so I again posit your original assertion that furries are highly promiscuous (suggesting it's more so than other groups) is at once unfair, biased, and not correct. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> I also think you're wrong about this age being promiscuous.  As you ironically claim, the media shows promiscuity often in their movies and TV shows, in fact I think a show tried to get away with regular orgies, think it was called Sense or something.  It was a weird show, canceled several months ago.  But it just goes to show that media isn't backing tradition by any means.  I forgot who did the study, but the most recent generation is showing to be more conservative than the last two generations.  I believe it was 60/40.  I'll have to look it up again.  Point is, I don't think it's not unusual for this age to be promiscuous.



I think we're pretty promiscuous these days, and likely getting more so. And I hope to god [sic] that the younger generation isn't getting more conservatives, not that that's necessarily a bad thing, just that I don't think it's accurate, Younger people were the most likely to vote for Bernie Sanders after all. 

Also if you could clarify your last sentence there with the double negative, that'd be great.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Damnit, why are there so many conservatives here? XD
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The reason so many young people chose Bernie Sanders was because their choices was between Hillary, Trump, and/or corporate dems/reps.  Without even touching on politics you can understand the contention.  And I didn't say the current generation are just more conservatives, I said, or rather meant, that they are more conservative than previous generations.  That doesn't mean they are strictly conservative, but it does show a far greater leaning toward traditional values.

And considering that Christianity has many sects, I don't think I need to delve too deep into the Bible to tell you that your interpretation of the Bible is that of the typical Turned Christian argument.  Many examples of the Old Testament were examples of the Israelites doing poor in the eyes of God, or if not that, barely making the grade.  It wasn't a secret that in the Old Testament there were frequent times that God was disobeyed.  And as I said, polygamy was a valid practice, especially during when the Old Testament was being written.  The Bible in the Old Testament does say things against polygamy or taking more wives for yourself in terms of living in excess, but it wasn't really until the New Testament that the concept of monogamy truly unfolded, and since monogamy is still the preferred method, I don't see how promiscuity can ever be considered healthy.  You call it laughable that being committed to one woman or one partner is healthy, yet I don't see what being promiscuous does to make a healthier person.  Any online article that was vaguely medical will try and tell you the health benefits of sex, as though they're significant in any way or justify any excess of sexual activity.  They ignore the fact that, between 1988 - 1995, about 78% of deaths were caused by AIDS, which means that millions of people dying from AIDS is not actually an absurd figure as you once claimed.  It dipped due to increased contraceptives, but it's still a very big issue today that we are wrestling with.  Most health benefits of sex occur ceteris paribus, ignoring circumstance and context, both HUGE factors when determining the healthiness of sex.

If you want to try and tell me that polygamy or polyamory leads to less affairs, I'm afraid I haven't seen evidence of such.  If you treat others as casual sexual partners, you're turning yourself into a casual sexual partner yourself... and if that's what you wanna be, a casual sex partner, fair enough, but I don't see how that would function as a medium to long term goal; there's much nobler ambitions than becoming a casual partner.  And there's very little you can do to convince me that being polyamorous or promiscuous is healthier than sacrificing immediate capitalization of sex for one partner.  And it is a sacrifice, no doubt about it, but if you're gonna have a medium to long term relationship with someone you gotta learn to sacrifice the potential for sexual activity for an actual relationship with someone.  You can't really have a marriage with a backdoor, especially if it's a sexual backdoor, because if you get married and you have a backdoor you will never show each other what you're really like, you'll never resolve the issues you've been dealing with since you were young, and you will never change until you divorce and find a new partner or continue down the promiscuous path until you get sick of it realizing how much time was wasted.  Yeah, maybe there's the occasional someone who can negotiate sexual creativity, lets say, in their relationship, but there's a reason that monogamy prospered and polygamy faded to obscurity, and it's not just because of the rise of Christianity.  Furries in this sense seem to make open relationships work better than others because they're very communal in nature, and mostly LGBT, which homosexuals have shown to be more promiscuous on average than heterosexuals.

And you wonder why I'm making these accusations to the furry fandom; it's because statistically speaking it's true!  The majority of furries are homosexual, and as such, homosexuals are more promiscuous on average.  Already that sets the bar high for open sexual behavior, and it isn't a small portion of the community.  That's at least a good 60% there.  The fandom also has a high concentration of fetishes, reasons that I can't really understand, and the community itself is rather compact.  So yeah, I don't think I'm being biased here, as we can see just by being in the fandom that there is a high concentration of homosexuals, who are on average more promiscuous, as well as a higher degree of fetishes in a community that is compacted into particular corners of the internet.  That means there is a high concentration of promiscuous furries.  It's not an issue of being furry, it's just that the furry fandom happens to have said issue.  Given the factors, it only makes sense.


----------



## Massan Otter (Feb 5, 2018)

I think it may be important to distinguish between online and IRL behaviour in the fandom;  I get the impression that not everyone being open about sexuality and preferences, sharing furry porn or participating in yiffy RPs is actually behaving promiscuously in other contexts.  Yet they still get tagged as degenerates by the conservatively minded.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

Massan Otter said:


> I think it may be important to distinguish between online and IRL behaviour in the fandom;  I get the impression that not everyone being open about sexuality and preferences, sharing furry porn or participating in yiffy RPs is actually behaving promiscuously in other contexts.  Yet they still get tagged as degenerates by the conservatively minded.



Right but as far as I understand, sexual displays and deviancy are not uncommon at fur con events.  Orgies are pretty regular from what I hear (and this is coming from other furries) and at some point people displayed pornographic material on a projector or some shit for the public?  Idk, but I don't think fur cons are providing good examples of furries being passive about their kinks.


----------



## Deleted member 111470 (Feb 5, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Right but as far as I understand, sexual displays and deviancy are not uncommon at fur con events.  Orgies are pretty regular from what I hear (and this is coming from other furries) and at some point people displayed pornographic material on a projector or some shit for the public?  Idk, but I don't think fur cons are providing good examples of furries being passive about their kinks.



That's news to me but I am not surprised in the slightest. Not to say that orgies are furry-exclusive.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 5, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Right but as far as I understand, sexual displays and deviancy are not uncommon at fur con events.  Orgies are pretty regular from what I hear (and this is coming from other furries) and at some point people displayed pornographic material on a projector or some shit for the public?  Idk, but I don't think fur cons are providing good examples of furries being passive about their kinks.



I don't actually hear about this. Word of mouth is always terrific for getting accurate information, as many furries seem intent on demolishing the image of the fandom all on their own.

Whoa, that's a massive block of text twisting my words every which way! 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> The reason so many young people chose Bernie Sanders was because their choices was between Hillary, Trump, and/or corporate dems/reps.  Without even touching on politics you can understand the contention.  And I didn't say the current generation are just more conservatives, I said, or rather meant, that they are more conservative than previous generations.  That doesn't mean they are strictly conservative, but it does show a far greater leaning toward traditional values.



Nope, there will plenty of people to choose from during the election. We had 4 Democrats run for President and what seemed like a dozen Republicans run. That's why the argument "Trump won because of Hillary." Nope, Trump won because of people voting for him, and people need to own up to that fact and accept the social backlash consequences of that decision. 

And I stuck an extra S on my sentence, I know what you meant to say.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> And considering that Christianity has many sects, I don't think I need to delve too deep into the Bible to tell you that your interpretation of the Bible is that of the typical Turned Christian argument.



Most of them are going to have, at minimum, very very limited views on sex. That's just how it is. In fact, the greater the religiosity, the more problems you get. I used to live in the Bible Belt, and it seemed like corruption ran all over the place as far as deviancy went. You think some furries drawing weird porn are deviants? They're not - pastors groping kids and telling women how to dress and rape-shaming *are the real deviants.
*
But anyway, there's nothing wrong with being prudish! People are, IMO, free to be as promiscuous or as celibate as they want, and I'm not going to criticize either extreme, although I might not agree with either extreme!



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Many examples of the Old Testament were examples of the Israelites doing poor in the eyes of God, or if not that, barely making the grade.  It wasn't a secret that in the Old Testament there were frequent times that God was disobeyed.  And as I said, polygamy was a valid practice, especially during when the Old Testament was being written.  The Bible in the Old Testament does say things against polygamy or taking more wives for yourself in terms of living in excess, but it wasn't really until the New Testament that the concept of monogamy truly unfolded, and since monogamy is still the preferred method, I don't see how promiscuity can ever be considered healthy.



As long as people have safe sex, there's not much wrong with it.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> You call it laughable that being committed to one woman or one partner is healthy, yet I don't see what being promiscuous does to make a healthier person.  Any online article that was vaguely medical will try and tell you the health benefits of sex, as though they're significant in any way or justify any excess of sexual activity.  They ignore the fact that, between 1988 - 1995, about 78% of deaths were caused by AIDS, which means that millions of people dying from AIDS is not actually an absurd figure as you once claimed.  It dipped due to increased contraceptives, but it's still a very big issue today that we are wrestling with.  Most health benefits of sex occur ceteris paribus, ignoring circumstance and context, both HUGE factors when determining the healthiness of sex.



I'd like a citation for claiming that AIDS were once 78% of all deaths - what, worldwide, or just Africa? These claims needs backing to be taken seriously.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> If you want to try and tell me that polygamy or polyamory leads to less affairs, I'm afraid I haven't seen evidence of such.  If you treat others as casual sexual partners, you're turning yourself into a casual sexual partner yourself... and if that's what you wanna be, a casual sex partner, fair enough, but I don't see how that would function as a medium to long term goal; there's much nobler ambitions than becoming a casual partner.



I never said it would lead to less affairs, I made no claim to that one way or the other. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> And there's very little you can do to convince me that being polyamorous or promiscuous is healthier than sacrificing immediate capitalization of sex for one partner.  And it is a sacrifice, no doubt about it, but if you're gonna have a medium to long term relationship with someone you gotta learn to sacrifice the potential for sexual activity for an actual relationship with someone.  You can't really have a marriage with a backdoor, especially if it's a sexual backdoor, because if you get married and you have a backdoor you will never show each other what you're really like, you'll never resolve the issues you've been dealing with since you were young, and you will never change until you divorce and find a new partner or continue down the promiscuous path until you get sick of it realizing how much time was wasted.  Yeah, maybe there's the occasional someone who can negotiate sexual creativity, lets say, in their relationship, but there's a reason that monogamy prospered and polygamy faded to obscurity, and it's not just because of the rise of Christianity.  Furries in this sense seem to make open relationships work better than others because they're very communal in nature, and mostly LGBT, which homosexuals have shown to be more promiscuous on average than heterosexuals.



I've made no claim about whether it's healthier than monogamy (overall, it probably is, but enough to stigmatize it?). And if gays are more promiscuous, consider that they're usually much more *secular *on average than straight couples. However yes, most AIDS is contracted by gays and bisexuals, so there is that. Also, I'd like to see a study stating whether or not gays are in fact more or less promiscuous than average. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> And you wonder why I'm making these accusations to the furry fandom; it's because statistically speaking it's true!  The majority of furries are homosexual, and as such, homosexuals are more promiscuous on average.  Already that sets the bar high for open sexual behavior, and it isn't a small portion of the community.  That's at least a good 60% there.  The fandom also has a high concentration of fetishes, reasons that I can't really understand, and the community itself is rather compact.  So yeah, I don't think I'm being biased here, as we can see just by being in the fandom that there is a high concentration of homosexuals, who are on average more promiscuous, as well as a higher degree of fetishes in a community that is compacted into particular corners of the internet.  That means there is a high concentration of promiscuous furries.  It's not an issue of being furry, it's just that the furry fandom happens to have said issue.  Given the factors, it only makes sense.



Again, please back up your position.


----------



## Massan Otter (Feb 5, 2018)

I haven't been around the cons, but are they genuinely different from any other gathering of predominately young people bonding over shared interests on a weekend away?  Because those circumstances are going to increase the likelihood of risky sexual behaviour whatever the shared interest is.  You see it around raves, festivals, college sports teams, I could go on...


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I don't actually hear about this. Word of mouth is always terrific for getting accurate information, as many furries seem intent on demolishing the image of the fandom all on their own.
> 
> Whoa, that's a massive block of text twisting my words every which way!
> 
> ...



Trump won because he was the most charismatic and the least corporate (ironically) out of the cast of presidents, and those who weren't corporate weren't experienced or charismatic enough to take charge.

The choices for the democrats were Hillary, a couple no-name democrats, and Bernie Sanders, who likewise to Trump, was rather charismatic on the offset, but was pushed off stage by corporatism, ironically enough, even though he was clearly the more popular choice.  I wasn't exactly pleased with the roster.  Those who didn't want Hillary felt stuck with Trump; those who didn't vote Trump during the offset were also stuck with Trump.  Those who supported Trump still supported him.  His victory was really no surprise, or it shouldn't have been a surprise, the only people it shocked was the media who scandalized Trump as much as they could, but any basic analysis would show that Hillary was not the favored choice among the democratic roster; it was Bernie.  If Bernie was up for President, Trump would not be president right now.

Limits are not a bad thing.  In fact, limits and sacrificing potential for the future is what makes a fulfilling life.  You want to live life impulsively?  It'll be miserable, especially when you near your late forties.  I've seen it with my former uncle: lived like he was twenty in a forty year olds body, and now he's gambled his money and marriage away and to replace it, some young thirty year old who'll be no tenable solution for him except as wine he can bring to his lips whenever he pleases.  Impulsiveness does not make any long term solution, and promiscuity is the act of being impulsive about sexual desires.

Believe me, I'm not a perfect sexual example for this, but I do understand that there is no chance that polyamory is going to get me anywhere; I would need a love to bind myself to, otherwise I have a way out and I don't need to change.

As for everything else, I'll need to find the citations, but when I have the time.  This week I have lots of work to do.


----------



## stimpy (Feb 5, 2018)

Yuka said:


> Okay, so there's this one thing that I've noticed almost instantly after I joined this forum: many people here are speaking very negative of the fandom to the point I was asking myself why they're even here in the first place. I was really surprised tbh because even though there's some drama in the german area too, I've never seen that much negativity and not from so many people.
> 
> What I'am asking is: why is that? I'm not that long in the fandom yet so maybe I'm still seeing everything through rose-colored glasses. Sure, there may be some...strange people and events happaneing (I myself already got one or two weird messages) but I don't believe that the whole fandom is _that_ awful either.​


whilst i can enjoy being a furry sober its a billion times better drunk. but yeah nahh the furry fandom is a lot of fun, just gotta ignore the all the hatred and enjoy it for what it is, a liking to anthro characters ( or at least drink it a way [dont actualy do that])


----------



## lupi900 (Feb 5, 2018)

BennyJackdaw said:


> The problem isn't that it's ignored, in fact quite the opposite. The problem is that it's heavily magnified. A lot of the porn furries draw is harmless and, again, most fandoms are just as bad, including fandoms involving human: but no one pays attention to fandoms of strictly human franchises. They always zoom in on furries and fandoms of anything dealing with talking animals. It's because humans, in general, have become so obsessed with their own species that they will turn the blind eye to any wrongdoings in one fandom and advertise the problems of others.



Yeah insulting people for just liking furry porn. Same with blowing up over how furries are trash because 99% never knew one who was a rapist or something. is not gonna get anyone to give a shit beyond making yourself look like ignorant dunce who takes the fandom way too personal or is insecure.




BennyJackdaw said:


> The image also isn't helped by people, supposedly furries themselves,  who try to pretend that we are these horrible degenerate human beings. Instead of trying to set the reccord straight, they try to make the image even worse, which just makes people hate furries more and not only will this refelct on the fandom, but even the furries that don't commit any of the things often complained about will be demonized, and sometimes will basically be bullied out of liking certain things because people have made them feel that worthless as a furry that they cannot go on being a furry.



To be frank if a non-fur is dumb to believe a furry insecure or immature enough to bully other furs. For not agreeing with or counter arguing there basless accusations on how were the problem, there not worth looking at.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Feb 5, 2018)

Furries generally rag on furries and/or the furry fandom for one of the following reasons, in my experience:

They want to feel morally superior. 
By building up a narrative of "well at least I don't engage in _these_ negative behaviors" they set themselves up to be some kind of moral elite. It's a common tactic in all kinds of social situations, so it's no surprise we're seeing it here, too, though it's still at the very least bordering on bully tactics (putting someone down to feel better about yourself).
They want a scapegoat for their lack of social success.
By saying "furries have an awful reputation" they're avoiding personal blame for not being more successful in making friends or dating. It's not their fault, it's because these other furries gave them a bad rap. While there might be a grain of truth to it in specific situations, most non-furries honestly don't give a hoot unless you shove it in their face. I link my 100% non-furry BFF to furry porn for laughs. She makes Thor jokes. This is not saying you always have yourself to blame if you're not popular - just that popularity does not ride on a single interest you have, unless that really is all there is to you. Not everyone will be popular, that's just life. Treasure the friends you have instead of being glum about not having more of them.
They just enjoy negativity and/or playing victim.
Some people sincerely seem to enjoy the narrative of being part of a group that is looked down upon by others. 
I personally think a lot of it is building on false pretenses. Furries don't have as bad of a reputation as some doomsayers among us seem to think. We're just some people who have an oddball hobby, and most people don't give it more thought than that unless you force them to. Out of all of the people outside fandom I've talked to about furries, I've had exactly_ one_ person go the "ugh you are all dog-fucking deviants" route, and she was... clearly ragging on me to feel better about herself (like no, seriously, other people made the same observation). So I don't lend her words and actions much credence. Most reactions fall in the "huh, that's kinda cool" camp if there's any reaction to speak of at all.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> That brings up an entirely different issue. No other fandom, except maybe some anime fandoms, is so promiscuous, or so openly promiscuous.


While not a fandom in the traditional sense, you've obviously not connected to the local kink scene in your city. Even without knowing where you live, I can pretty much guarantee they're juuust as "bad" as furries. Anime definitely has it - go browse summaries of hentai some time. It's all kind of comparing apples and oranges, though. Furry fandom is fairly unique in its nature; it's a fandom that creates its own content. The only thing that comes close to that is really if we treat the fanfic community as a unit, and look at it in isolation from the writers' individual fandoms. And if you do that, you'll probably find about as much sexual content as you do on FA. I'm guessing. If you want to confirm, you could go count stories on AO3. 
The point is, it's a lot harder to apply a love for football, or racing, or symphonic orchestras, to every other part of your life. If you feel furry fandom gets a disproportionate amount of sexual content, it's probably because it _can_. I can't drag my passion for crime dramas into the bedroom without fundamentally changing what goes on in there. You can add furry aspects to just aboout any other activity you enjoy, while the same can't be said for that many other interests. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Promiscuity has its problems because I think casual sex is a contradiction; there's nothing casual about sex. It's a pair-bonding experience, and humans are fundamentally pair-bonding creatures. It also doesn't help that homosexual men have shown to be more promiscuous on average. That's ignoring the danger of disease.


I can recommend having a read through _Sex at Dawn_. You're positing that humans are inherently predisposed to pair-bonding, and I think that's a flawed supposition, which makes the conclusions you draw from it (that sex is inherently a pair-bonding experience, that sex cannot be casual) flawed. 
There's also a (very sad) historical explanation for why promiscuity is part of gay culture: it was, ironically, safer for especially gay men to have random hookups than to have stable relationships. It's easier to slip casual sex with someone you have no social connection with past people who would lynch you, or arrest you, or both, than sharing your whole life with another person. While social climate has changed in most of the western world, and the legal climate certainly has, the culture born of that stigma won't change overnight. (Most gay men I know also are quite aware of safe sex practices. So saying it's ignoring the danger of disease is like saying parachuters are ignoring the dangers of falling from thousands of feet.)



ResolutionBlaze said:


> If you want to try and tell me that polygamy or polyamory leads to less affairs, I'm afraid I haven't seen evidence of such.


Also depends on your definition of "affairs". Cheating, defined as breaking the established boundaries of your relationship, does from what I've observed lessen when those boundaries are negotiated based on all involved parties' wants and needs, rather than being established based on societal expectations. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> You can't really have a marriage with a backdoor, especially if it's a sexual backdoor, because if you get married and you have a backdoor you will never show each other what you're really like, you'll never resolve the issues you've been dealing with since you were young, and you will never change until you divorce and find a new partner or continue down the promiscuous path until you get sick of it realizing how much time was wasted. Yeah, maybe there's the occasional someone who can negotiate sexual creativity, lets say, in their relationship, but there's a reason that monogamy prospered and polygamy faded to obscurity, and it's not just because of the rise of Christianity.


Polygamy is still practised in a number of countries, so I'd hardly call it faded into obscurity. However, going by the degree to which it's been common practise for the wealthy and powerful to keep a lover or two on the side, I don't think you can claim history supports your conclusion. The polite fiction is that we don't stray, that's all. 

I've been married since 2014. I got engaged to my husband back in... geez... December 2008. That whole time we've had an open relationship. We've also enjoyed open communication. That, not monogamy, is how you learn what another person is really like. Issues from childhood are for yourself and your therapist to resolve, though having the support of a partner is a bonus. Adding a boyfriend to our relationship only made it stronger. Us being able to seek sexual release elsewhere when the other is unavailable or isn't into the same things we are? Does not harm our relationship in the least. If anything, the opposite - if I had to choose between a fulfilling sex life and being with my husband and boyfriend, I'd be facing an impossible choice. Should I give up love because we don't share kinks? Should I give up on experiencing all the things I do with my kinky lover (including some forms of emotional release - not all kink is 100% about sex itself) because he's not my husband? Neither choice would make me happy, because either way I'd be losing something that I treasure, that makes me happy, for no added benefit.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Feb 5, 2018)

Continued, because the forum didn't like how freaking long-winded I got...



ResolutionBlaze said:


> If you treat others as casual sexual partners, you're turning yourself into a casual sexual partner yourself... and if that's what you wanna be, a casual sex partner, fair enough, but I don't see how that would function as a medium to long term goal; there's much nobler ambitions than becoming a casual partner. And there's very little you can do to convince me that being polyamorous or promiscuous is healthier than sacrificing immediate capitalization of sex for one partner.


Let's make a deal. You don't talk about polyamory, and I won't talk about building rocket ships. Because you clearly know about as much about polyamory as I know about rocket science, and it's pretty offensive to see you get my relationship structure that horribly wrong. My relationship happens to be both poly and open, but the two are not synonymous, nor do they always go together. I have over the course of my life had sex within my relationship, not-so-casual sex outside my relationship, slightly-more-casual sex outside my relationship, and completely casual no strings attached one-time hook-ups. Having a relationship that consists of three people rather than two does not mean I treat my husband, nor my boyfriend, as a casual sexual partner. Having an emotional attachment to one of my extrarelational sexual partners does not mean I treat my husband or my boyfriend worse. Having (safe) sex with people I'll likely never see again means I have my fun, and then I go home and go about my life. No impact on my relationship. While my relationship isn't perfect (no relationship is), it's a hell of a lot healthier than the (monogamous) relationship I had with my ex. Because I'm not trying to deny or choke my emotional attachment to someone else.

Polyamory isn't for everyone. Open relationships aren't for everyone. Promiscuity isn't for everyone. But the three are not the same. Not even close.
Besides, monoamory and monogamy aren't for everyone, either, nor are they inherently any more "noble" than nurturing a healthy poly relationship.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Limits are not a bad thing. In fact, limits and sacrificing potential for the future is what makes a fulfilling life. You want to live life impulsively? It'll be miserable, especially when you near your late forties. I've seen it with my former uncle: lived like he was twenty in a forty year olds body, and now he's gambled his money and marriage away and to replace it, some young thirty year old who'll be no tenable solution for him except as wine he can bring to his lips whenever he pleases. Impulsiveness does not make any long term solution, and promiscuity is the act of being impulsive about sexual desires.


Um... no? As someone half again your age and then some, I can safely say that repressing your own emotions and desires does not make your life fulfilling. Reining them in (to make sure you're fulfilling them in a healthy manner and not letting them get in the way of other life goals) can help, but "sacrificing" them? Nope. If you live your life as though giving up what you want will lead to long-term happiness, you're more likely to end up looking back on your life with regrets.

Also, promiscuity and impulsiveness are not the same. Being impulsive about your sexual desires can result in promiscuity, sure, but you can carefully weigh every sexual relation you have and still engage in what will at the very least appear to be promiscuous behavior from the outside.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Believe me, I'm not a perfect sexual example for this, but I do understand that there is no chance that polyamory is going to get me anywhere; I would need a love to bind myself to, otherwise I have a way out and I don't need to change.


You don't change for the people you love (or sleep with). You change for yourself. Anything less will make you miserable and/or resentful in the long run.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Right but as far as I understand, sexual displays and deviancy are not uncommon at fur con events. Orgies are pretty regular from what I hear (and this is coming from other furries) and at some point people displayed pornographic material on a projector or some shit for the public? Idk, but I don't think fur cons are providing good examples of furries being passive about their kinks.


"Deviancy" is a useless term. I'd imagine it's quite possible there's one or two orgies in someone's hotel room at furry cons. But I'd also expect the same would be true for most weekend conventions of a comparable size. Yes, including trade conventions. Overall the kinkiest I've really seen in public spaces at cons have been harnesses worn over fursuits and tasteful latex suits.

I'd highly doubt anyone had permission to display pornographic material in a public space, and cons generally take that shit pretty seriously. I've seen people shown out of the artist alley of cons for not properly covering up the naughty bits in their print binders, or for leaving binders containing naughty content open. I also had classmates in high school who, when they got access to the computer running the projector in a classroom and knew the teacher would spend most of the class in another room, proceeded to pull up Tubgirl and similar content on the projector. Pushing boundaries and going out of your way to shock people may be inappropriate, but it's a trait at least as common among the general populace as among furries.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 5, 2018)

No need for me to keep screeching when Mungo got it all down nicely.


----------



## Dongding (Feb 5, 2018)

Was waiting for Mungo; Didn't disappoint.


----------



## ellaerna (Feb 5, 2018)

To add: www.livescience.com: Bondage Benefits: BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People
It's correlative and not without issue, but studies show that fetishes aren't the symbol of mental unhealth and poor relationship practices some seem to think they are.
Don't knock it til you try it, basically.

Also: journals.sagepub.com: SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research
Lay off poly. Mono isn't perfect either.

Also also, the 1980's AIDS epidemic was not just because _~the gays~_ were so_ ~promiscuous~_. That's ignoring huge sociological variables, including the president at the time under funding research into the disease because he thought it was God's work:
"Maybe the Lord brought down this plague [because] illicit sex is against the ten commandments"- Ronald Reagan 1989​Maybe if there was more research into a cure, more resources for healthy sexuality and protected sex, and less stigma around homosexuality at the time which led gays to be more "promiscuous" in the first place, there wouldn't be such huge death tolls.


----------



## Inkblooded (Feb 5, 2018)

what the ever loving fuck has this thread devolved into
we went from "why is there so much negativity among furries" to "AKTUALLY I THINK YOULL FIND US BDDSMERS ARE MORE MENTALLY SOUND THAN U VANILLAS"

jesus christ fur affinity forums this is why furries have a bad reputation. you are a self fufilling prophecy. you are the source of the problem you are complaining about. you are your own enemy


----------



## ellaerna (Feb 5, 2018)

This is how the Fandom ends, not with a bang but with conversationally relevant study data. 
Truly we are a doomed people.


----------



## Inkblooded (Feb 5, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> This is how the Fandom ends, not with a bang but with conversationally relevant study data.
> Truly we are a doomed people.



well aside from the fact that is bull shit study data- ok nevermind im not even going to bother. i know better. i am better than this
i have better things to do than try and reason with people on this absolute hell site. no matter what i say or do it will cause someone to shit their diaper with a force of the biggest recorded tsunami. even what im typing now, even before i've even hit reply, someone has already probably started howling like a neglected newborn baby. thats furries. thats what furries are and what they do.

"why all this negativity" indeed. why? why you ask? we will never know because nobody wants to take a step back and look at their dumb ass childish behavior.
its just_ ohh look at this picture of two muscly wolf men having a little nsfw moment he he ^///^ *glomps and snuggles chu* _and theres so much of that there's no room left for rational discussions or people to calm down

you could literally post a thread titled "i dont like ham" on this goddamn forum and i swear to the holy mother virgin mary, after 5 pages the conversation will be changed into an angry, insult-filled slurry of drama over who does or doesn't like furry watersports or something. i am being 100 percent serious, that is how this forum, and furries in general, operates.

it wont be long before posting a picture of a fluffy kitten will make people send you death threats and insults.


----------



## ellaerna (Feb 5, 2018)

I'll wait. 



Inkblooded said:


> even what im typing now, even before i've even hit reply, someone has already probably started howling like a neglected newborn baby. thats furries. thats what furries are and what they do


Honestly I'd say that the current discourse in this thread is relatively calm. Someone came in making claims that weren't well supported and people decided to respond in turn. I'm not seeing this hooting and hollering you seem to think there is. Like, we can definitely get bad, no argument there, but at least in this thread you seem to be the one with the biggest issue.

We did manage to stray from topic, which I will apologize for my part therein, but I'm not sure it's the dumpster fire that some threads wind up in. And it was at least related to the topic when things started to take a turn.


----------



## Inkblooded (Feb 5, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> I'll wait.
> 
> 
> Honestly I'd say that the current discourse in this thread is relatively calm. Someone came in making claims that weren't well supported and people decided to respond in turn. I'm not seeing this hooting and hollering you seem to think there is. Like, we can definitely get bad, no argument there, but at least in this thread you seem to be the one with the biggest issue.
> ...



its calm in a way that nobody is resorting to homophobic insults or personal attacks yet but its still a big mess.

and as you have demonstrated it is going bad. I AM the problem even though i barely said anything? oh shit. im about to get a group spam of people who personally have a problem with me doing the crime of MAKING A POST, and let me guess, 2 pages from now there will be a big argument about how someone random is my alt account or something


----------



## ellaerna (Feb 5, 2018)

Inkblooded said:


> its calm in a way that nobody is resorting to homophobic insults or personal attacks yet but its still a big mess.
> 
> and as you have demonstrated it is going bad. I AM the problem even though i barely said anything? oh shit. im about to get a group spam of people who personally have a problem with me doing the crime of MAKING A POST, and let me guess, 2 pages from now there will be a big argument about how someone random is my alt account or something


I never said you were the problem, just that you seem to be making the most noise, so to speak, for someone complaining of furries howling like babies. 
I get that you get a lot of hate here, and I honestly don't want to start another round of that. You don't deserve it. 
But I also don't think that posting a couple of links warranted your response. Agree to disagree and move on?


----------



## Inkblooded (Feb 5, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> I never said you were the problem, just that you seem to be making the most noise, so to speak, for someone complaining of furries howling like babies.
> I get that you get a lot of hate here, and I honestly don't want to start another round of that. You don't deserve it.
> But I also don't think that posting a couple of links warranted your response. Agree to disagree and move on?



you know i dont even understand what you are "agreeing to disagree" on. hell im not even sure if any of this is real. im probably hallucinating big time and this is my subconcious mind's way of punishing me.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Continued, because the forum didn't like how freaking long-winded I got...
> 
> 
> Let's make a deal. You don't talk about polyamory, and I won't talk about building rocket ships. Because you clearly know about as much about polyamory as I know about rocket science, and it's pretty offensive to see you get my relationship structure that horribly wrong. My relationship happens to be both poly and open, but the two are not synonymous, nor do they always go together. I have over the course of my life had sex within my relationship, not-so-casual sex outside my relationship, slightly-more-casual sex outside my relationship, and completely casual no strings attached one-time hook-ups. Having a relationship that consists of three people rather than two does not mean I treat my husband, nor my boyfriend, as a casual sexual partner. Having an emotional attachment to one of my extrarelational sexual partners does not mean I treat my husband or my boyfriend worse. Having (safe) sex with people I'll likely never see again means I have my fun, and then I go home and go about my life. No impact on my relationship. While my relationship isn't perfect (no relationship is), it's a hell of a lot healthier than the (monogamous) relationship I had with my ex. Because I'm not trying to deny or choke my emotional attachment to someone else.
> ...



Sacrificing for long term sustainability is a practice humanity has been doing since they've first conceived the ability to do so.  You've probably done it more times than you think.  You sacrifice immediate happiness for the future.  Sacrifice is not repression, as was explained earlier in a video, and there's a fair bit of difference between forgoing sexual urges and pretending they don't exist.  I'm not saying you should pretend they don't exist.  I'm saying that you should avoid the immediate capitalization of sexual gratification to avoid the consequences of impulsive sexual decisions.

You're also speaking as though I think happiness is an agreeable long term goal.  My beliefs are far from that, in fact, I believe that happiness isn't even in the same ballpark.  Happiness isn't the meaning of life; it's improvement to help combat suffering.


ellaerna said:


> To add: www.livescience.com: Bondage Benefits: BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People
> It's correlative and not without issue, but studies show that fetishes aren't the symbol of mental unhealth and poor relationship practices some seem to think they are.
> Don't knock it til you try it, basically.
> 
> ...



I'm confused about the purpose of the study in this context.  It isn't specific to polymorous activity.  Plus it hasn't said much that wasn't already known; you have to be comfortable with sex for those activities to be achieved with any amount of enjoyment.  So the results from the first study don't astound me.

The second study I actually can't access, so a PM of the summary would be appreciated.

All in all, I think I need to go and think more about the issue, as I'm digging too deep for me to provide anything critical.

So I'll be taking it easy until I gather more information in my freetime..

Let me be clear, it's not that I don't think polymorous relationships can't work, I just don't think it's nearly as functional for people as some here claim.  Monogamous marriage is tough.  It's not perfect.  But there's no such thing as a utopian marriage, and that's why I'm so doubtful of polygamy or polyamory.

I think the stats are, within a day, if there are 4 positive interaactions to 1 negative, the relationship fails; but at the same time, if partners exceed 11 positive interactions to 1 negative interaction, the relationship also fails.  Marriage is, or should be, a wrestling match, because you're shackled to someone just as imperfect and useless as yourself, and the only way to make it mutually beneficial is if you two confront the issues that even you don't want to face.  To resolve the problems buried under the person, and emerge stronger.

It's my belief that it is a moral obligation of people to better themselves.  Happiness, joy, pain, suffering are all useless if it does not serve to make your life better.  A happy but useless person is no more vituous than a suffering, resentful person.  To better yourself means to ease life's suffering.  Make things good for you as though it were good someone you were taking care of, but good for you in a way that's also good for your family, your community, and the larger enviroment, and it will be good for them now, next week, next month, next year, forever.  Balanced at all those levels.  That's goodness.

Now I'm just rambling.  Point is, I appreciate the insight and will be looking further in depth.


----------



## ellaerna (Feb 5, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I'm confused about the purpose of the study in this context.  It isn't specific to polymorous activity.  Plus it hasn't said much that wasn't already known; you have to be comfortable with sex for those activities to be achieved with any amount of enjoyment.  So the results from the first study don't astound me.
> 
> The second study I actually can't access, so a PM of the summary would be appreciated.


I can't PM you? For some reason? So here's the abstract


Spoiler



In this article, we critically examine the social institution of monogamy. First, we discuss the lack of an adequate and consistent definition of the construct of monogamy and consider how common monogamy is. Next, we address perceived benefits of monogamy and whether those ostensible benefits are supported by empirical evidence. We conclude that evidence for the benefits of monogamy relative to other relationship styles is currently lacking, suggesting that, for those who choose it, consensual non-monogamy may be a viable alternative to monogamy. Implications for theories of close relationships are discussed.



You mentioned fetishes in one of your previous posts, in a very "furries are both gay and kinky and that is bad" context (quoted below), so I wanted to point out that at least the kinky bit doesn't necessarily make a bad person or a bad relationship. 


ResolutionBlaze said:


> The fandom also has a high concentration of fetishes, reasons that I can't really understand, and the community itself is rather compact. So yeah, I don't think I'm being biased here, as we can see just by being in the fandom that there is a high concentration of homosexuals, who are on average more promiscuous, as well as a higher degree of fetishes in a community that is compacted into particular corners of the internet. That means there is a high concentration of promiscuous furries. It's not an issue of being furry, it's just that the furry fandom happens to have said issue.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

ellaerna said:


> I can't PM you? For some reason? So here's the abstract
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...



I didn't necessarily say it was bad, but in the context of what we were discussing, it is bad, because the fandom is more compact than the average general populace that people compare it to; thus our actions get more spotlight because we simply aren't as numerous and have more concentrated incidents, and that hits the spotlight more.  It's been attributed to our identity and that leads to the conclusion that we are a bad fandom.  I'm not making any claim about the goodness or badness of kinks (promiscuity I have) I'm just stating that it's in high concentration in a fandom that is far smaller than a general populace and thus leads to it hitting the spotlight more often and reflecting negatively on us as a whole.


----------



## Simo (Feb 5, 2018)

This seems germane:






(sorry for low rez, best I could find.............)


----------



## quoting_mungo (Feb 5, 2018)

Dongding said:


> Was waiting for Mungo; Didn't disappoint.


Polyamory talk is my bat signal. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> You're also speaking as though I think happiness is an agreeable long term goal. My beliefs are far from that, in fact, I believe that happiness isn't even in the same ballpark. Happiness isn't the meaning of life; it's improvement to help combat suffering.


I'm not quite sure how you're using "happiness", to be honest. You speak of "making your life better" as being separate from it, which to me at best sounds like the words of someone who takes its availability for granted. Ultimately, though, the words you put on it are unimportant; on the whole not taking opportunities when they present themselves is more likely to lead to regrets than the other way around. Because taking a chance that doesn't pan out nets you a learning experience, and missing it only nets you what-ifs. I can also tell you, as someone who regularly puts others' happiness before her own, that neglecting your own happiness is unhealthy and habitually forgoing it to please others is maladaptive. (So do as I say, not as I do. )



ResolutionBlaze said:


> I'm not making any claim about the goodness or badness of kinks (promiscuity I have) I'm just stating that it's in high concentration in a fandom that is far smaller than a general populace and thus leads to it hitting the spotlight more often and reflecting negatively on us as a whole.


Concentration won't have a significant impact on outside perception unless said outsiders get into our spaces, though. _We_ may see a higher concentration (though that's debatable - I rather suspect it's more the fact that we're relatively open about it amongst ourselves) of kink, but that's something that's communicated (loosely speaking) between us, not broadcast outwardly, with some rare exceptions. Pittsburgh fucking loves Anthrocon and its attendees on the whole, from what I hear. 

When someone does something bad enough to be newsworthy it flares up briefly in media and then dies out. Media attention has the lifespan of a mayfly, if that. Furry fandom remembers furries who became news a _lot_ longer than Average Joe does. It's not worth worrying about.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Feb 5, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Polyamory talk is my bat signal.
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure how you're using "happiness", to be honest. You speak of "making your life better" as being separate from it, which to me at best sounds like the words of someone who takes its availability for granted. Ultimately, though, the words you put on it are unimportant; on the whole not taking opportunities when they present themselves is more likely to lead to regrets than the other way around. Because taking a chance that doesn't pan out nets you a learning experience, and missing it only nets you what-ifs. I can also tell you, as someone who regularly puts others' happiness before her own, that neglecting your own happiness is unhealthy and habitually forgoing it to please others is maladaptive. (So do as I say, not as I do. )
> ...



Making ones life better is a terrifying thing to set out to do.

First you have to define what you mean by better.  I set the parameters I think makes good behavior.  If by better you mean happier, then no.  If by better, coming to terms with the fact that you won't always be happy, by better you mean facing the fact that life is abound with suffering, and that everything you know and understand could be wrong, and that the only way to achieve improvement is through the truth, then yes.

This exchange we've had, this is a process of life and death for one or both parties involved.  That's what happens during meaningful discussion; an idea, a part of you, dies, painfully, and in return comes a newly updated idea in rebirth.  We do this simultaneously, a continuous death and rebirth, until we get to a sort of truth.  It's torment, to understand that a good 95 - 99% of what you believe could be entirely wrong.  But without the willingness to endure that pain we never seek the truth, and it could be that 5% of you that is strong after all the dead skin is burnt off, then you have a foundation.

My thoughts on this matter remain unchanged for the most part; mostly because I am not versed enough on the issue to make any meaningful conversation about it, to participate in this death and rebirth process, and to change anyone's mind meaningfully, much less my own.  I need a more solid grounding of these beliefs to put them against others, and see if they stand or fall.

Either way, seeking the truth, seeking to improve, is not a matter of happiness, in fact I would be far more happier if I simply ignored everything stated here and moved on with my day.  But for the truth to unfold I must press on to have my own axioms put in question, and be able to effectively defend them, as I have failed to do so here.


Also, I don't refer to the media necessarily, but as to why the fandom gets such a negative response in the first place.  I mean, think about how many people are afraid to "come out" as a furry.  Hell, even using the terms "come out" hints that there's something about it that isn't acceptable, at least not socially; even if it's only the imagination of paranoid furries, which it could very well be, it's still enough to cause furries themselves to question the desire of telling anyone their interests in furries.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 5, 2018)

Just more kink shaming, really. 

"My kinks are better than yours!"

"You're too promiscuous!" 

"You're depraved!"


----------



## KiokuChan (Feb 5, 2018)

I'm sorry that that has been your experience so far.


----------



## backpawscratcher (Feb 6, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Just more kink shaming, really.
> 
> "My kinks are better than yours!"
> 
> ...


Meh.  Each to their own and all that.  

_"Can't we all just get along?"_


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Feb 6, 2018)

Shane McNair said:


> See, now this thread shows why I choose not to argue about shit like this. It inevitably turns into fucking massive walls of text on every page with people doggedly trying to disprove the validity of each others' views, on and on and on...
> 
> Back and forth it goes. Where will it end?
> 
> I'll just sit here quietly and drink my coffee. *sips*


*woofs in agreement*


----------



## backpawscratcher (Feb 6, 2018)

Shane McNair said:


> See, now this thread shows why I choose not to argue about shit like this. It inevitably turns into fucking massive walls of text on every page with people doggedly trying to disprove the validity of each others' views, on and on and on...
> 
> Back and forth it goes. Where will it end?
> 
> I'll just sit here quietly and drink my coffee. *sips*


'tis the Internet.  Somebody always has to take The Points™ and be King of the Debate Hill 

Or something.  I don't know.  

This predates the web.  You should have seen some of the complete dumpster fires that used to break out on Usenet threads.  My particular favourites were two guys on an Amiga group that would argue about anything, literally anything at all, for hours.  Seriously, if one of them said oxygen was a good thing the other one would point out how it contributes to forest fires!!


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 6, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> Meh.  Each to their own and all that.
> 
> _"Can't we all just get along?"_



NO! MY KINKS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS!


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 6, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> 'tis the Internet.  Somebody always has to take The Points™ and be King of the Debate Hill
> 
> Or something.  I don't know.
> 
> This predates the web.  You should have seen some of the complete dumpster fires that used to break out on Usenet threads.  My particular favourites were two guys on an Amiga group that would argue about anything, literally anything at all, for hours.  Seriously, if one of them said oxygen was a good thing the other one would point out how it contributes to forest fires!!


----------



## backpawscratcher (Feb 6, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> NO! MY KINKS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS!


Pics or it didn't happen.

*thinks about it*

NO!! DON'T SEND PICS!!!





BahgDaddy said:


>


*Quietly steals that for future use*


----------



## BahgDaddy (Feb 6, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> *thinks about it*
> 
> ...



Don't give me any ideas.


----------



## Simo (Feb 6, 2018)

here


----------

