# Humans: Live or Die?



## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

EDIT: Pretend that you have the power to destroy all human life. You're sitting next to a button or something, and if you push it, you can destroy all human life on Earth. Would you do it?





EDITED because people were getting hung up on the aliens, and not focusing on the real question, which is, "Do you judge humanity as a whole as worthy of life, or death?"



ORIGINAL POST BELOW:___________________________

Pretend for a moment that you were an alien. You'd been sent to live as a human in order to decide whether they should live or die.

Considering what you've been through in life, would your verdict be life, or death?


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## Adelio Altomar (Jan 5, 2010)

DESTORY ALL HUMANS!!!!!1


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## Jazzy (Jan 5, 2010)

Life, most definitely.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 5, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Pretend for a moment that you were an alien. You'd been sent to live as a human in order to decide whether they should live or die.
> 
> *Considering what you've been through in life, would your verdict be life, or death?*



What business would it be of some alien to make such a decision in the first place?

EDIT: I would also like to add that what does ones personal shitty life have to do with killing or not killing off a race?


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## Runefox (Jan 5, 2010)

Realistically? Humanity has its faults, but there is also a lot of potential for good.

Don't believe me? The very fact that questions like these are asked, that organizations exist to further things like environmental protections, civil rights and pretty much everything proves it. You can't get hung up on everything that goes wrong - Otherwise, you'll be stalled for eternity. The whole point is to keep going and make things better for the future.

Of course, that's pretty idealistic, but people are doing that right now. There are wars and political tensions and sweat shops and what have you, but we're aware of these things, and we don't like these things, either - If we did, would we see it as a problem as described here?

I've lived a pretty crappy life these past couple years, but in a rare bout of optimism, that's experience that I can use for the future, and I already have in many respects both in the past and present. I can't blame any one person or even humanity as a whole for what my life has been thus far - How can anyone?

</serious>

LOL BLOW UP THE WORLD WITH DONUT LASERS


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## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> What business would it be of some alien to make such a decision in the first place?


What business is it of some humans to go off to another country and start killing people just because they can? 

That's not the point of my thread. I'm not curious about the motives or thinkings of aliens, I'm curious what we humans think about us humans.

If you're that hung up on aliens, then change the idea, "Pretend for a moment that you were sitting beside a button that could kill all human beings, wipe only humans totally from the planet. Every single one of them. Would you do it?"

That better?



RandyDarkshade said:


> What business would it be of some alien to make such a decision in the first place?
> 
> EDIT: I would also like to add that what does ones personal shitty life have to do with killing or not killing off a race?



EDIT FOR YOUR EDIT:

Unless you grew up chained in a basement with no outside contact (in which case, you wouldn't be here posting, now would you?), you will have not only experienced your own suffering (if you did experience any), but you would have heard of other people's suffering, too. You would see in the News when a woman puts her children into a car and pushes it into the lake. You would hear about a boy adopted and then kept as a slave. Etc. etc.

No life is ever "just one life," and that's the whole point.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 5, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> What business is it of some humans to go off to another country and start killing people just because they can?
> 
> That's not the point of my thread. I'm not curious about the motives or thinkings of aliens, I'm curious what we humans think about us humans.
> 
> ...



Nope. Humans have their faults, but nothing is perfect.


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## Sparticle (Jan 5, 2010)

Taking the WHOLE human race into account, i'd chose life.
Most problems in the world arise from lack of education and ignorance and not from pure evil. (Which conspiracy theorists can't seem to comprehend).


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## Hir (Jan 5, 2010)

I'd say live for the sake of letting things live, nothing more.


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## Wait Wait (Jan 5, 2010)

oh shit
i expected everyone else to vote for death this is so awkward

welp


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## Ratte (Jan 5, 2010)

Prolly live.


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## Wait Wait (Jan 5, 2010)

the world is terrible, why would you perpetuate it any longer


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## Ibuuyk (Jan 5, 2010)

Kill em, Gaia is much better w/o em


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

Even though it's pissing everyone off, without the humen we couldn't play videogames anymore and aliens only have Pong.

I'd go mad knowing I'd have to play Pong all the time.

Just do as usual: steal 3-4 humans to make some experiences on him and send him back as a new USA president.


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## Xipoid (Jan 5, 2010)

Everything has its flaws, and that alone can be beautiful. Perfection is boring, and surely a few rotten apples doesn't spoil the whole orchard.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

Xipoid said:


> Everything has its flaws, and that alone can be beautiful. Perfection is boring, and surely a few rotten apples doesn't spoil the whole orchard.




Speaking of rotten apples. Humen made rotten forests. And rotten beans.

I remember at school. It was the morality lesson and we were discussing about if "human deserves life or death?" and finally almost the whole school came (duh...) and we all spoke about it.

We discussed so much we finally discussed about how well do hamburgers taste.


My conclusion:
Speaking of the human condition is impossible.


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## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Life.  There's very good odds another alien species, if they grew up in an environment with competition, are at the very least just as violent as us.  If they've mastered interstellar space travel, that means they've got technological adaptation. At at least some point in the technological development, they were likely just as - if not more so - damaging to the environment as us.

The only reason I think an Alien might choose death is that, at some point in the future, we might pose a threat to them.  Which is the same for all other species that may eventually develop FTL travel.  Remember:  A single ship moving FTL could cause _massive_ damage to a planet upon impact.  One human / Klingon / whatever alien "Oops, should have mapped that section of space better.  How many people we lose in the crash?"  Could wind up an extinction-level event on one of their planets.  And that's _accidental_ destructive use of FTL.  Imagine warfare.

If I were one of said Aliens, I'd pick life as right now the _worst_ thing I think Humanity deserves is maybe selective gene pool removal as well as maybe population management.  However, there likely _would_ be Aliens who want us dead because of ideological reasons (They stand in the way of our Great Journey!), precautionary reasons (Would you trust a Terran-version of our Empire to be any less likely domineering?), the "obvious" / lack-of-morals reasons (Stripmine earth!  Forget about all the species on its surface, that's a lot o' metallic ore and water!), and so on.

Which is another thing:  What do we know about said Alien species?  They could be all "rational" / emotionless thought, in which case they would see our planet as I said in the last above:  Material to be exploited with no care for the native critters.  They could be pacifistic fucks like the Puppeteers, or warlike invaders like the Covenant, and so on.  Without knowing what type of Aliens, we can't exactly give a proper response by them.


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## Aden (Jan 5, 2010)

The backstory detail to this poll is, frankly, astounding. Gold star.

But anyway, what I don't get is why the aliens have to choose between life and total annihilation. Are they some kind of universal arbiter? And what kind of deal is this? "Hey mang, let's send one of our dudes to live as a human, come in contact with less than one thousandth of a percent of the world's total population and information, and let only them decide humans' worldly fate". And maybe if they came from a place where there are just a fuckton of other alien life-forms and discovering extraterrestrial life was as common as discovering a new species of insect in the rainforest I could see it working, but I'm sure if we humans found sentient alien life somewhere someday we wouldn't try to slip one of our own into their midst in order to determine whether or not we should just kill 'em all. So maybe it's to decide about some crazy galactic overpopulation deal? Have to commit genocide against at least 5 races before the century is up?

Also, live :V



Attaman said:


> However, there likely _would_ be Aliens who want us dead because of ideological reasons (They stand in the way of our Great Journey!), precautionary reasons (Would you trust a Terran-version of our Empire to be any less likely domineering?), the "obvious" / lack-of-morals reasons (Stripmine earth!  Forget about all the species on its surface, that's a lot o' metallic ore and water!), and so on.
> 
> Which is another thing:  What do we know about said Alien species?  They could be all "rational" / emotionless thought, in which case they would see our planet as I said in the last above:  Material to be exploited with no care for the native critters.  They could be pacifistic fucks like the Puppeteers, or warlike invaders like the Covenant, and so on.  Without knowing what type of Aliens, we can't exactly give a proper response by them.



Most of these motivations wouldn't require sending someone to live amongst the earthlings for decades in order to decide methinks


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## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

I loosely based the concept on the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still.

Again, though, it's not about the aliens. It's about, given what you know of humanity, do you judge humans as a species to be worthy of life, or worthy of death?


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## CaptainCool (Jan 5, 2010)

if there are no survivors than id be dead, too...
no thanks, live.
im enjoying live and other people more than ever right now! if you would have asked me about 2 years ago... my answer would have been different though =(


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## Gavrill (Jan 5, 2010)

Kill everything

Then I don't have to worry about school or anything :3


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## Aurali (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm playing god and choosing who dies.
I'm starting with you forum goers <.<


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## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Again, though, it's not about the aliens. It's about, given what you know of humanity, do you judge humans as a species to be worthy of life, or worthy of death?


If solely based off humanity, then live.  What, praytell, are we doing that would deserve us - and only us - to be eliminated?  After making that list, come up with things that make us - and only us - worthy of survival.  If you come up with "nothing" in either of the fields, you're bullshitting yourself.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

Aurali said:


> I'm playing god and choosing who dies.
> I'm starting with you forum goers <.<



*throws a half-eaten apple at her/his/its face*
We don't point peoples, that's rude.


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## Aurali (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> *throws a half-eaten apple at her/his/its face*
> We don't point peoples, that's rude.



I prefer the female pronouns thanks.. and you just moved up the list >.>


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## Thatch (Jan 5, 2010)

Give me a true reason besides the "because people wrong me" and I might be bothered to think about eradicating humanity.


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## Aurali (Jan 5, 2010)

szopaw said:


> Give me a true reason besides the "because people wrong me" and I might be bothered to think about eradicating humanity.



because people are retarded and the dumb ones need to die.


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## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Aurali said:


> because people are retarded and the dumb ones need to die.



Aurali, that's where selective extermination comes into play.   Turns out all men (and women) are not created equal.


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## Tycho (Jan 5, 2010)

Hooray for absurd black-and-white poll choices.

No, I'm not gonna wipe out an entire race.  Human race has got a lot of things going for it.  Could use a little culling, maybe put a little more chlorine in the gene pool so to speak.  I SAID IT GO AHEAD SCREAM EUGENICS I DARE YOU


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 5, 2010)

Tycho said:


> Hooray for absurd black-and-white poll choices.
> 
> No, I'm not gonna wipe out an entire race.  Human race has got a lot of things going for it.  Could use a little culling, maybe put a little more chlorine in the gene pool so to speak.  I SAID IT GO AHEAD SCREAM EUGENICS I DARE YOU




EUGENICS!

I dared.


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## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Eugenics:  It's coo' when it gets you your favorite breed of dog, but bad when applied to humans.


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## Thatch (Jan 5, 2010)

Aurali said:


> because people are retarded and the dumb ones need to die.



Try again.
Also, irony.


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## Beta_7x (Jan 5, 2010)

They are my steady supply of nutrition.


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## Kanin (Jan 5, 2010)

I call for a douchebag genecide! 

Who's with me?


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## Hir (Jan 5, 2010)

Lord Kanin said:


> I call for a douchebag *genecide!*
> 
> Who's with me?


I might be with you when you spell it right.


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## X (Jan 5, 2010)

wait, do i survive?

anyway, kill 'em all, thats my view.

i even have some last words to the world before i set it off.


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## moonchylde (Jan 5, 2010)

I shall drink my meed from their still-warm skulls...


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## selkie (Jan 5, 2010)

I don't think I have enough hubris to judge all human life, much less think I'm worthy of making the decision whether everybody lives or dies. Nobody is. :O


So I'd let us live.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

selkie said:


> I don't think I have enough hubris to judge all human life, much less think I'm worthy of making the decision whether everybody lives or dies. Nobody is. :O
> 
> 
> So I'd let us live.



Good speaking Gandalf.


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## selkie (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> Good speaking Gandalf.



Fuck bitches, get money.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

selkie said:


> Fuck bitches, get money.


Hell yeah.

Look out for swear words. People choosing if we must die or not.


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## Ozriel (Jan 5, 2010)

Kilmore said:


> They are my steady supply of nutrition.



Soylent green anyone?


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## selkie (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> Hell yeah.
> 
> Look out for swear words. People choosing if we must die or not.



uh
Fornicate, get money.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

Wait Wait said:


> the world is terrible, why would you perpetuate it any longer



Because we only get one. And frankly, I like it here.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Because we only get one. And frankly, I like it here.




Oh oh oh I know I know! *raises a finger*

Because we're not hippies sir!


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> I loosely based the concept on the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still.



Failmovie fails. End of story. :v 



Lindu said:


> Oh oh oh I know I know! *raises a finger*
> 
> Because we're not hippies sir!



??


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## Karali (Jan 5, 2010)

IF I WAS AN ALIEN WOULD I BE A FURRY LOLOLOLOLOL.

Um. No. I'd choose life.

We're pretty awful.

But no awful than anything else. And besides, it's only a smaller number than you perceive to be that is truly awful.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

"the world is terrible, why would you perpetuate it any longer"

I wanted to response to this and the quote failed.


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## Thatch (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> "the world is terrible, why would you perpetuate it any longer"
> 
> I wanted to response to this and the quote failed.



wat


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

szopaw said:


> wat



He meant to say:

"Why would we perpetuate it any longer? *raises middle finger* BECAUSE WE'RE NOT HIPPIES SIR!"


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

"the world is terrible, why would you perpetuate it any longer"

Someone said this.

Another someone quoted that sentence and I tried to quote the person who quoted it to propose my solution about hippies. It failed and I posted the other messages where another quote failed and you're questioning yourself about what it means.

Here is the plot: forgive all about it. Too much reflexion for nothing, just like psychology.


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## Thatch (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> "the world is terrible, why would you perpetuate it any longer"
> 
> Someone said this.
> 
> ...



I'm eating mandarines.

Also, if I'm guessing right, you wanted a quote-in-quote. And yeah, that doesn't work.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

By the way: I didn't raise a middle finger, just a finger. Just like in school class.

And if ever someone feels like judging humanity, there is a good option: I'll edit my message (if ever it interrests someone) with some books explaining why we can't think about it.


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## Thatch (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> By the way: I didn't raise a middle finger, just a finger. Just like in school class.
> 
> And if ever someone feels like judging humanity, there is a good option: I'll edit my message (if ever it interrests someone) with some books explaining why we can't think about it.



I like chocolate.

Poop time.


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## Goldstar78i (Jan 5, 2010)

Live.  As a human, I don't think it's fair to be making that judgement for all humans.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Failmovie fails. End of story. :v



Well, yeah, the movie sucked. Again, though, not really the point. I was just trying to find a way to ask the question that was at least a little creative.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> By the way: I didn't raise a middle finger, just a finger. Just like in school class.



My way is funnier. :v 

I always thought raising a hand was the proper way to answer a question... 


Anyways, this thread proves that over 1/3 of people on this forum are hypocrites of the worst degree. That makes me sad.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

Aden said:


> The backstory detail to this poll is, frankly, astounding. Gold star.



What "backstory" are you looking for? Does every question need a back story?

Sometimes a question is just a question.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 5, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> What "backstory" are you looking for? Does every question need a back story?
> 
> Sometimes a question is just a question.



The more information people have, the easier it is to make a decision. Some people don't need much info, some do. 

A scenario or two or three would be helpful too. Just suggesting.

But I don't think the scenario would matter for me, I still wouldn't wipe out the human race.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> My way is funnier. :v
> 
> I always thought raising a hand was the proper way to answer a question...
> 
> ...




Unsilenced> what do you mean by hypocrite?
Puke the reality on that bread.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> Unsilenced> what do you mean by hypocrite?
> Puke the reality on that bread.



They would condemn humanity when they are nothing but humans themselves.


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## Runefox (Jan 5, 2010)

Ibuuyk said:


> Kill em, Gaia is much better w/o em



Hi! Guess what? You're "them".

I love how people say stuff like this to sound virtuous, when really it just sounds pretty childish.


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## Thatch (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> They would condemn humanity when they are nothing but humans themselves.



Quite the annoying ones too.


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## Lindu (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> They would condemn humanity when they are nothing but humans themselves.




Jesus talked guys.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

There is no scenario or information, really.

The back story to it is personal for everyone. 

Knowing what you do, having lived your own life... you're suddenly taken up into a space ship. It's revealed to you that you're not who you think you are. Instead, you were put on Earth to decide whether the human race was too evil to survive, or not... what would  your answer be? It's a yes or no, life or death question.

Have you seen enough good in humanity that you would say, "Life"? Have you seen so much evil and pain, and yet so little good, that you would say, "Death"?

It's not meant to be cryptic and I don't understand how it could possibly be confusing or unclear.


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## Runefox (Jan 5, 2010)

> Have you seen enough good in humanity that you would say, "Life"? Have you seen so much evil and pain, and yet so little good, that you would say, "Death"?


Even in this case, the person that's been wronged so often is different from the people who are wronging them. therefore, good still exists in humanity, even if it's only the one as far as they're concerned.


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## Kommodore (Jan 5, 2010)

You would have to be a pretty big asshole to kill everyone on the Earth based solely on your notion of if they are "worthy" or not. 

Life: because no sane man should think they have the right to make that kind of decision.


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## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

@Ibuuyk:  How is that helping?



> I know, it stops the destruction of ecosystems!  Oh, wait one second.  Sure, I guess we can argue it's because humans introduced them, but... do animals not migrate?  I mean, we most definitely didn't introduce birds to Hawaii.
> 
> Hm, how about the fact that with humans gone there's no more murder?  What's that? It still would happen? Surely these are just outliers. I mean, these must all be wild examples of pure chance. I'm surely just giving false links right now, or Rickrolling people. Yep, going to stop any second now. Any second now...
> 
> ...



I don't think I'll ever get old of posting this quote when people say the removal of humans makes Earth a better place.  Yep, you sure stopped bigotry, genocide, rape, and all those other horrid things.


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## Zrcalo (Jan 5, 2010)

I would...

KILL ALL ALIENS.

mexicans.


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## Vaelarsa (Jan 5, 2010)

I would kill the harmful idiots, and leave the people who are halfway intelligent or harmless idiots, with no potential for creating harm.

Being an alien in any kind of place to decide whether or not to kill humanity as a whole would allow me to make good judgment with which to divide them into those groups.
Otherwise, I'd have no place making that kind of decision.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

Ya know, I really hate the whole "kill all idiots" idea too. Why? Because "idiot" generally just means someone who sees things differently than you. No matter who you are, I would put money down to say that someone out there thinks you are an idiot. So "kill all idiots" would really just be a planet-wipe... or do you dare to presume that you are the absolute authority on who is/is not an idiot?


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## X (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Ya know, I really hate the whole "kill all idiots" idea too. Why? Because "idiot" generally just means someone who sees things differently than you. No matter who you are, I would put money down to say that someone out there thinks you are an idiot. So "kill all idiots" would really just be a planet-wipe... or do you dare to presume that you are the absolute authority on who is/is not an idiot?



have them take an IQ test or just kill the people below a certain GPA.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

X said:


> have them take an IQ test or just kill the people below a certain GPA.



Both of those are really bad ideas. In the addition to being genocide, you would also be killing decently intelligent people with disabilities that reduce performance on standard tests and academic activities. Not to be cliche, but did you know that Einstein sucked in school? If you measure by grades, you would have executed him. IQ tests are no better, especially since they strongly discriminate against the under-educated. A dumbass taught math and spelling would do better on the IQ test than some poor sap from the slums who's never seen a chalkboard. And then there are idiot-savants. They would do horribly on tests, but be masters of science, art or math. 


For further references for "why exterminating the mentally handicapped is a bad idea," see "Nazi Germany"


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## Torrijos-sama (Jan 5, 2010)

I would wish that if I pressed the button, all women would become infertile, and could not bear children in any way, and so a Children of Men scenario takes place. Except there is no black baby bourne at the end.


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## X (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Both of those are really bad ideas. In the addition to being genocide, you would also be killing decently intelligent people with disabilities that reduce performance on standard tests and academic activities. Not to be cliche, but did you know that Einstein sucked in school? If you measure by grades, you would have executed him. IQ tests are no better, especially since they strongly discriminate against the under-educated. A dumbass taught math and spelling would do better on the IQ test than some poor sap from the slums who's never seen a chalkboard. And then there are idiot-savants. They would do horribly on tests, but be masters of science, art or math.
> 
> 
> For further references for "why exterminating the mentally handicapped is a bad idea," see "Nazi Germany"



i meant below the point of mental retardation, like below 60 IQ.
here is a chart:

anyway, someone said idiots, and you brought it up that how can one decide if someone is an idiot. here is an accepted method of judging this.

anyway, im just going for the supervillan dream of a perfect world with smart, non-corrupt, not idiotic people.



Edit: never-mind, give me the god damned death note, that will fix the problem.


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## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> For further references for "why exterminating the mentally handicapped is a bad idea," see "Nazi Germany"


Funny, whenever I hear about Nazi Germany all the complaints I hear are about their murder of homosexuals, jews, and minorities.  I only ever hear mention of the mentally handicapped when looking at factual texts or entire numbers lists.

I'm sure it just slips most people's minds.


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## Sabre (Jan 5, 2010)

If it got rid of the intolerant assholes on this planet, but not harm the cool people, I'd press the button.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

X said:


> i meant below the point of mental retardation, like below 60 IQ.
> here is a chart:
> 
> anyway, someone said idiots, and you brought it up that how can one decide if someone is an idiot. here is an accepted method of judging this.



Accepted... accepted... 

*sigh*

That doesn't mean it's right. People can be "retarded" and still be worthwhile. Furthermore, they're still people. They deserve to be alive just as much as you or any other. They still have families, friends. They still have lives. They just don't think the same way we do, is that really worth killing them for?


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## X (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Accepted... accepted...
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> That doesn't mean it's right. People can be "retarded" and still be worthwhile. Furthermore, they're still people. They deserve to be alive just as much as you or any other. They still have families, friends. They still have lives. They just don't think the same way we do, is that really worth killing them for?




I am not trying to get into a serious debate here, I am just giving the reasons that I would do it for.  

And by the way, what is "right" is also a socially accepted thing, you learned what was "right" or "wrong" from other people's views and your own feelings; there is no true "right" or "wrong" only accepted views in the end.


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## Vaelarsa (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Ya know, I really hate the whole "kill all idiots" idea too. Why? Because "idiot" generally just means someone who sees things differently than you. No matter who you are, I would put money down to say that someone out there thinks you are an idiot. So "kill all idiots" would really just be a planet-wipe... or do you dare to presume that you are the absolute authority on who is/is not an idiot?


Again, if I was an alien who was deemed capable of making that decision for humanity, then I would only assume that it implies "knowing what's best."
Otherwise, I wouldn't make the decision.

And my definition of "idiot" is generally someone who
- tries to justify raping someone
- tries to justify pedophilia
- tries to justify bestiality
- puts religious morals before seeing what works best for the greater good of the majority
- etc related shit

Or should I be called an idiot for being against those widely frowned upon qualities?

Also:


> They deserve to be alive


No one "deserves" to be alive just because someone came into someone else's vagina.
Life isn't something you're entitled to, or you have earned. It just happens.
Sure, natural preservation and your consciousness will tell you "Oh I DESERVE to be here." No, you don't. No one does.


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## Kommodore (Jan 5, 2010)

Vaelarsa said:


> And my definition of "idiot" is generally someone who
> - tries to justify raping someone
> - tries to justify pedophilia
> - tries to justify bestiality
> ...



So in your book an "idiot" is anyone who has an opinion not in line with yours? Because that is what it sounds like.


----------



## Vaelarsa (Jan 5, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> So in your book an "idiot" is anyone who has an opinion not in line with yours? Because that is what it sounds like.


Because bestiality, rape, pedophilia, and religious control over sense are of course going to make up the majority of anyone's opinions on anything ever.

Uh oh. My boyfriend just said he doesn't like Mario 3. HE IS OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT AND MUST BE KILLED AND THEN CASTRATED, IN THAT ORDER.


----------



## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

Kill low IQ people?

So Kim Peek should have been killed, huh?

And Alonzo Clemens.

To hell with all the families of people who have low IQ loved ones, too, right?

If it's okay for you to kill someone for their religion, I assume you think it's okay for them to kill you for yours (or your lack thereof).


----------



## Keyox (Jan 5, 2010)

Kill them all. Humans are parasites, if we were gone then maybe the Earth would have a chance to grow :/


----------



## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

Keyox said:


> Kill them all. Humans are parasites, if we were gone then maybe the Earth would have a chance to grow :/


Earth is, in fact, growing.


----------



## X (Jan 5, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Kill low IQ people?
> 
> So Kim Peek should have been killed, huh?
> 
> ...



i feel guilty and evil now, and its surprisingly invigorating.


mmm, delicious guilt.


----------



## Vaelarsa (Jan 5, 2010)

I find it amusing that people are pulling the "what if it was you" card, when we're assuming "you" are an alien capable of deciding whether or not to exterminate the entire human race.

Like anyone could do anything about it.
Like they would somehow be justified for rebelling against your decision, all the while you're not justified in making that decision. 

This whole thing is getting fucking retarded.

Also, I wonder how many people defending humanity on very small basis are also the same people squishing bugs over the grounds of being pests.


----------



## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Keyox said:


> Kill them all. Humans are parasites, if we were gone then maybe the Earth would have a chance to grow :/



Oh hey, people who don't know how nature works.  Everyone wave hi to them.

And Phoenix, she wasn't saying kill all religious people.  She was talking about the religious people who do stupid shit like _punish rape victims who get an abortion because the young child would die in pregnancy, without a doubt_, _withdraw charity support for towns / cities because regulations they don't like are being enforced_, and _discourage the use of condoms in high-STD and highly overpopulated zones because.... because._

At least, I assume that's what she means.  Am I correct?

EDIT:  Don't forget that there is absolutely no scenario being given for this.  For all we know, the reason to press the button is because the Aliens want to build an interstellar bypass, not that they're judging us on our actions.


----------



## Keyox (Jan 5, 2010)

Lindu said:


> Hell yeah.
> 
> Look out for swear words. People choosing if we must die or not.


 
 Disregard women, acquire currency?


----------



## Keyox (Jan 5, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Oh hey, people who don't know how nature works. Everyone wave hi to them.


 
I love the internet :V


----------



## PenningtontheSkunk (Jan 5, 2010)

I would let most die but keep the rest in check.


----------



## PheonixStar (Jan 5, 2010)

Vaelarsa said:


> I find it amusing that people are pulling the "what if it was you" card, when we're assuming "you" are an alien capable of deciding whether or not to exterminate the entire human race.
> 
> Like anyone could do anything about it.
> Like they would somehow be justified for rebelling against your decision, all the while you're not justified in making that decision.
> ...



People keep getting stuck on the whole 'alien' thing. This is an entirely hypothetical situation, and the real focus here isn't the motives or capabilities or whatever of the pretend aliens.

The focus is on your personal judgment of humans. Worth to go on as they are... or worthy to be killed en masse "for the good of the planet" or because they're so evil that they cause suffering for everything around them, etc.

Another way might be to ask, do you think that humans are inherently good (though flawed) [or, inherently indifferent/neutral and choose their own path/direction experiencing life for a bit-- whatever], or do you think that they are inherently evil but held back by social restraints/threat? 

Or perhaps do you think that the evil that humans as a bulk species do so far outweighs their good that they should be exterminated regardless of whether they are inherently good or bad?



Attaman said:


> Oh hey, people who don't know how nature works.  Everyone wave hi to them.
> 
> And Phoenix, she wasn't saying kill all religious people.  She was talking about the religious people who do stupid shit like _punish rape victims who get an abortion because the young child would die in pregnancy, without a doubt_, _withdraw charity support for towns / cities because regulations they don't like are being enforced_, and _discourage the use of condoms in high-STD and highly overpopulated zones because.... because._
> 
> At least, I assume that's what she means.  Am I correct?



Reminds me of the Neimholer poem. ... and then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up.

If you don't want freedom for them, then you don't really want freedom.



> EDIT:  Don't forget that there is absolutely no scenario being given for this.  For all we know, the reason to press the button is because the Aliens want to build an interstellar bypass, not that they're judging us on our actions.



Again, the aliens aren't the focus. The focus is, what is your judgment, view of humans, based on your experiences and knowledge of the world to date.

The aliens or button, or whatever else, is just the backdrop of the bigger picture.

Are humans evil, good, indifferent? Is the damage they do more than the good they do, and if so, do they deserve to die for it as a species?

It is a philosophical question about humans, not aliens.


----------



## Captain Spyro (Jan 5, 2010)

My judgment is that they deserve to live on like they always have. Honestly, it's not whether I believe they should be judged.

In the end, humanity will either evolve or destroy itself.


----------



## Kommodore (Jan 5, 2010)

Vaelarsa said:


> Because bestiality, rape, pedophilia, and religious control over sense are of course going to make up the majority of anyone's opinions on anything ever.



I think the ancient Greeks would take issue with your assessment of everyone's opinions ever. On all counts, actually. 

I think you need to reassess your definition of "idiot."



			
				Captain Spyro said:
			
		

> In the end, humanity will either evolve or destroy itself.



That is a tad bit fatalistic don't you think? I for one believe humanity is perfectly capable of sustaining itself peacefully as it stands now.


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 5, 2010)

as much as i hate humanity for being so damn stupid i could never kill anyone or anything


----------



## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Keyox said:


> I love the internet :V


Who doesn't love the series of tubes?


PheonixStar said:


> People keep getting stuck on the whole 'alien' thing. This is an entirely hypothetical situation, and the real focus here isn't the motives or capabilities or whatever of the pretend aliens.


  No, the focus is on whether you would kill 6 billion people if given the chance.


PheonixStar said:


> The focus is on your personal judgment of humans.


  What is the crime?


PheonixStar said:


> Worth to go on as they are... or worthy to be killed en masse "for the good of the planet" or because they're so evil that they cause suffering for everything around them, etc.


  I like how you just brush over "sparing", but give reasons for killing them.  Playing devil's advocate, or you showing signs of bias?


PheonixStar said:


> Another way might be to ask, do you think that humans are inherently good (though flawed) [or, inherently indifferent/neutral and choose their own path/direction experiencing life for a bit-- whatever], or do you think that they are inherently evil but held back by social restraints/threat?


 _Morality is subjective_.  You zoom out far enough, humans _pale_ next to the _universe_ in terms of dickishness.  


PheonixStar said:


> Reminds me of the Neimholer poem. ... and then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up.


  But they're already not going to speak up for me because they're the type who wouldn't support anyone who refuses to convert.  I love how you're defending such actions, however.  "You don't have the right to judge a religion for their practices!"  "Even when their practices lead to the death of thousands yearly, and crapstick life in crapstick shanty-town for more?"  "NO RIGHT TO JUDGE, KILL HUMAN YES OR NO?!" 


PheonixStar said:


> If you don't want freedom for them, then you don't really want freedom.


  I guess we should free those in prison who ideologically see nothing wrong with the crimes they committed.  If I don't want freedom for them, I don't want freedom.


PheonixStar said:


> Again, the aliens aren't the focus. The focus is, what is your judgment, view of humans, based on your experiences and knowledge of the world to date.


  So you're proposing a very far out there scenario?  In that case, I say yes, because this whole scenario probably is skewed in the alien's favor to kill humans.  If they travelled interstellar distances only to come to our planet and judge a single, individual species on their actions that a minority have committed over the past hundred thousand years or so, odds are they're going to be _really_ itching to push the button.


PheonixStar said:


> The aliens or button, or whatever else, is just the backdrop of the bigger picture.


  We're allowed to see only part of the scenario, the human part.  What if the aliens are normally against genocide?  What if the aliens consider our actions atrocious?  What if they consider what we do to be too pacifistic?  _The scenario changes perspective, unless we're to assume they're an alien species of "Us"._


PheonixStar said:


> Are humans evil, good, indifferent? Is the damage they do more than the good they do, and if so, do they deserve to die for it as a species?
> 
> It is a philosophical question about humans, not aliens.


Funny, one of the key points of philosophy is "why", but you only want to answer certain "why" questions.


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 5, 2010)

Vaelarsa said:


> Again, if I was an alien who was deemed capable of making that decision for humanity, then I would only assume that it implies "knowing what's best."
> Otherwise, I wouldn't make the decision.
> 
> And my definition of "idiot" is generally someone who
> ...



i really hope you dont come into power because if you do every one is fucked


----------



## Captain Spyro (Jan 5, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> That is a tad bit fatalistic don't you think? I for one believe humanity is perfectly capable of sustaining itself peacefully as it stands now.



Honestly, I agree. Which is why I said that they could evolve.

However, I also can see humanity destroying itself.

Honestly, there are a wide range of possibilities.


----------



## Azure (Jan 5, 2010)

I vote yes, but not out of self preservation.  I think that eventually, out of all our petty squabbling, something special will rise.  It won't be in our time, but it will happen.  If said alien had witnessed or researched the progression of humanity for some time, I would hope he would judge us on all our merits and flaws, from our rapid rise as a species, to our incredible propensity for being our own worst enemy.  If, as a race, it could be determined that we stop fighting amongst ourselves, we would turn our vast ambitions to the betterment of more useful things. But hey, if I had a big giant deathray and a planet full of unsuspecting lower life forms, I'm not sure what I would do.


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 5, 2010)

I voted kill everyone because i thought it'd be funny to vote that. 

I really wouldn't though.


----------



## Kommodore (Jan 5, 2010)

Captain Spyro said:


> Honestly, I agree. Which is why I said that they could evolve.



Evolve... socially? Physically? Sorry if it sounds like a silly question but it would not be the first time that I have heard someone say they think humans need to evolve physically to Something Else before they can ever be peaceful. 

Naturally the future of humanity can hold many different things from Utopia to nuclear war and anything between. I just don't think it would require any kind of radical change in the human mindset (culture and technology of course always evolve) to achieve these different endings.


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 5, 2010)

but then again would i really want to waste using a death ray on the other hand is humanity worth a death ray ?


----------



## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Jashwa said:


> I voted kill everyone because i thought it'd be funny to vote that.
> 
> I really wouldn't though.



Did you laugh when you saw how many people said yes? :V


----------



## uryu788 (Jan 5, 2010)

KILL THEM ALL!
just because


----------



## Unsilenced (Jan 5, 2010)

Vaelarsa said:


> No one "deserves" to be alive just because someone came into someone else's vagina.
> Life isn't something you're entitled to, or you have earned. It just happens.
> Sure, natural preservation and your consciousness will tell you "Oh I DESERVE to be here." No, you don't. No one does.



They don't deserve to die either, and you don't deserve to make the call.


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 5, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> They don't deserve to die either, and you don't deserve to make the call.



yeah no one does except chuck noris


----------



## Captain Spyro (Jan 5, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Evolve... socially? Physically? Sorry if it sounds like a silly question but it would not be the first time that I have heard someone say they think humans need to evolve physically to Something Else before they can ever be peaceful.
> 
> Naturally the future of humanity can hold many different things from Utopia to nuclear war and anything between. I just don't think it would require any kind of radical change in the human mindset (culture and technology of course always evolve) to achieve these different endings.



Honestly, I'm just laying down two general paths. I'm not saying humanity HAS to evolve, just that sharp evolution of mindset is possible. For all I know, a great change will come with little to no change in humanity in general.

Maybe I was being a little too black and white in a previous post.


----------



## Disasterfox (Jan 5, 2010)

That would like, suck... 
No, humans kick ass. Side's God will beat the shit outa me for that..
Now *insects & spiders*..., burn them on Pluto or Jupiter or Japan or something.. and roast marshmallows from earth and God will be there and he'll be all like- sweeeeeeeet


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 5, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Did you laugh when you saw how many people said yes? :V


I figured most of them were people like me that just did it to screw with the answers.


----------



## Chilly Willy (Jan 5, 2010)

No, why would I kill off such a delicious food source? :3


----------



## Attaman (Jan 5, 2010)

Chilly Willy said:


> No, why would I kill off such a delicious food source? :3


Aw, thanks.  We'll throw Beowulf at you last.


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 5, 2010)

FurAffinity said:


> That would like, suck...
> No, humans kick ass. Side's God will beat the shit outa me for that..
> Now *insects & spiders*..., burn them on Pluto or Jupiter or Japan or something.. and roast marshmallows from earth and God will be there and he'll be all like- sweeeeeeeet



if god hated bugs why would he have made them and it says in the bible god loves all things :/


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 5, 2010)

EinTheCorgi said:


> if god hated bugs why would he have made them and it says in the bible god loves all things :/


But thou shalt not squish bugs is not in the 10 commandments


----------



## Sheba_Metaluna (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry but no way would I kill humanity, allow you to kill my hooman (my mate is hooman) 
even though humanity is pretty screwed up I will give you that much..too much violence and bs going on


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 5, 2010)

Sheba_Metaluna said:


> Sorry but no way would I kill humanity, allow you to kill my hooman (my mate is hooman)
> even though humanity is pretty screwed up I will give you that much..too much violence and bs going on


You're a human.


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 5, 2010)

Jashwa said:


> But thou shalt not squish bugs is not in the 10 commandments



but it says thou shalt not kill


----------



## Sheba_Metaluna (Jan 5, 2010)

but on here I get to be my dragonie self  X3


----------



## Telnac (Jan 6, 2010)

The dark side of my personality that loves this crap is screaming "KILL EM ALL!!!" :twisted:

But, in truth, humanity as a whole is a pretty remarkable species.  In a blink of geological time, we've gone from advanced animals with crude tools to building a civilization that's about to take the next few steps needed to become a truly space faring race no longer bound to our home planet.  An optimist like myself may say it'll happen in the next 50-75 years, a pessimist may say it'll take 10 times that long.  But really, even if it takes another 5,000 years for us to finally leave this rock & become a multi-planet species, it's still an amazing achievement when you really think about it.

Yeah, we have war, disease, murder, crime... all that crap.  That's what we get for still being animals.  We may have civilization, but we're still wild beasts at heart.

But being wild beasts doesn't mean our species should be wiped out.  Changed?  Yes.  Wiped out?  No.  And surely, that change WILL happen.  It'll happen more slowly that our space faring technology, but it won't be all that long before micro-implants are boosting our memory at the same time that they curb our more self-destructive impulses.  Sound too scary to happen?  What do you think psychoactive drugs are doing (badly, I might add)?  Antidepressants are the most prescribed medicine, period... and for a reason.  Implants that do the same job, better, and w/ fewer side effects would be in BIG demand once they're available for the general population.

As medical technology improves & we start to add implants to our bodies to improve our standard of living, we'll be less and less animal-like and more and more machine-like.  Education would take minutes instead of years, and life spans would be measured in millennia rather than decades.

Given time, the number of true humans will be small indeed and they'll live in reserves, like giant wild animal parks for the strange animals who walk upright & who even build cities... but for some reason, choose to remain animals.  Signs and fences would have been replaced long ago with something far more effective, of course.  But if there were signs & fences still, a sign on the fence of such a reserve might read: "Humans, species _Homo sapiens, _endangered. No not feed the animals."


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 6, 2010)

EinTheCorgi said:


> but it says thou shalt not kill


That doesn't apply to animals.  It'd be impossible to live as a society if it did.


----------



## Shark_the_raptor (Jan 6, 2010)

-thumb up-  Live.



Aurali said:


> I'm playing god and choosing who dies.
> I'm starting with you forum goers <.<



>:{


----------



## PheonixStar (Jan 6, 2010)

Attaman said:


> No, the focus is on whether you would kill 6 billion people if given the chance.



Right, would you or wouldn't you, is the focus.



> What is the crime?



That's personal to each respondent. For example, to whoever made the Georgia Guidestones, the crime is just existing and being more than 500,000 people. To some, it's harming the Earth. To others, it's suffering perpetrated on others by humans. Whatever.



> I like how you just brush over "sparing", but give reasons for killing them.  Playing devil's advocate, or you showing signs of bias?



I was trying to prevent showing a bias towards life, which is what I voted on the poll as soon as I made it.

_



			Morality is subjective
		
Click to expand...

_


> .  You zoom out far enough, humans _pale_ next to the _universe_ in terms of dickishness.



So you say.



> But they're already not going to speak up for me because they're the type who wouldn't support anyone who refuses to convert.  I love how you're defending such actions, however.  "You don't have the right to judge a religion for their practices!"  "Even when their practices lead to the death of thousands yearly, and crapstick life in crapstick shanty-town for more?"  "NO RIGHT TO JUDGE, KILL HUMAN YES OR NO?!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Unsilenced (Jan 6, 2010)

Sabre said:


> If it got rid of the intolerant assholes on this planet, but not harm the cool people, I'd press the button.



A zero-tolerance policy on intolerance? 

I lolled.


----------



## Fokkewolf (Jan 6, 2010)

Let them live. They will kill themselves. It's only a matter of time with what's happening these days. It's a matter of a hundred or two years.

On the other hand, this process could really hurt nature. 
On the third hand there's no way to kill all the humans without hurting the nature around them.


----------



## PheonixStar (Jan 6, 2010)

Right, because nature's always so nice.

Tell that to the dinosaurs.

Whatever humans do, this rock will almost certainly go on-- and most likely still teeming with life.


----------



## Shark_the_raptor (Jan 6, 2010)

Poor dinosaurs.  v_v


----------



## Wait Wait (Jan 6, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> They don't deserve to die either, and you don't deserve to make the call.



but in death this conundrum no longer matters (or even exists, really)
subjectivity means you should not make either choice
yet one of the choices is to _end subjectivity_ (within what we know as factually true), therefore justifying it in itself


----------



## Mojotaian (Jan 6, 2010)

I would not destroy humans because every life is a consciousness... breathing, thinking, and living, for humans, it has connections to others, and that's just for the singular. I would not want the deaths of millions on my shoulders... especially if it was without proper reason.

A death of a sentient being should never be taken lightly...

PS: I believe OP has seen that movie where there's that giant robot-thing that turns into metalic-like insects. I forget what it's called, but it has one of the guys from Monty Python in it. John Cleese, that's him.


----------



## Chilly Willy (Jan 6, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Aw, thanks.  We'll throw Beowulf at you last.





Try it.  I dare you.


----------



## Koray (Jan 6, 2010)

Kill them! Kill them aaaaaaaallllll !!!!!!!


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jan 6, 2010)

Sure, why not?


----------



## PheonixStar (Jan 6, 2010)

Mojotaian said:


> PS: I believe OP has seen that movie where there's that giant robot-thing that turns into metalic-like insects. I forget what it's called, but it has one of the guys from Monty Python in it. John Cleese, that's him.



I saw the Day the Earth Stood Still, yes. But this question wasn't about that, really. I just wanted to see if most people saw the same things I do. 

Let's just say that I've met people who have been through unbelievable atrocities. Most of them would choose life for all.... and I've met people who haven't really been through all that much bad, and yet these are often the ones who claim that "humanity is a cancer" and all kinds of crap like that.


----------



## moonchylde (Jan 6, 2010)

If I killed all the humans besides myself, who would be left to mock?


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 6, 2010)

Nice to know 1/3 of the forums are misanthropic enough to kill all da evil hoomans.


----------



## pheonix (Jan 6, 2010)

Kill all us greedy bastards.


----------



## Unsilenced (Jan 6, 2010)

"God damn us every one."


----------



## Thatch (Jan 6, 2010)

Jashwa said:


> Nice to know 1/3 of the forums are misanthropic enough to kill all da evil hoomans.



They're not misantropic, they're butthurt.


----------



## south syde dobe (Jan 6, 2010)

I could care less if they live or die, thats too much work to press a button anyways :V


----------



## EinTheCorgi (Jan 6, 2010)

south syde fox said:


> I could care less if they live or die, thats too much work to press a button anyways :V



yeah its not really if i would do it, its more of are they worth the death ray :twisted:


----------



## Wait Wait (Jan 7, 2010)

szopaw said:


> They're not misantropic, they're butthurt.



over?


----------



## Mojotaian (Jan 7, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> I saw the Day the Earth Stood Still, yes. But this question wasn't about that, really. I just wanted to see if most people saw the same things I do.
> 
> Let's just say that I've met people who have been through unbelievable atrocities. Most of them would choose life for all.... and I've met people who haven't really been through all that much bad, and yet these are often the ones who claim that "humanity is a cancer" and all kinds of crap like that.


 
im not one for history on hardship except separation of parents, but I still value life... so... I just think... well... I don't think...


----------



## Doctor Timewolf (Jan 7, 2010)

I'd rather live, thanks.


----------



## blaze200 (Jan 7, 2010)

Destroy all of the greedy little bastards.


----------



## Unsilenced (Jan 7, 2010)

Ya' know, I'd really like to know how many of you "kill all human" folks are just kidding. I'm just not willing to accept that there are that many morons here.


----------



## Attaman (Jan 7, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Ya' know, I'd really like to know how many of you "kill all human" folks are just kidding. I'm just not willing to accept that there are that many morons here.


But Unsilenced, the hyoomans are a plague on the planet.  They wage war and murder and are the sole cause of natural disasters!  If it weren't for them, nothing bad would ever happen!


----------



## blaze200 (Jan 7, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Ya' know, I'd really like to know how many of you "kill all human" folks are just kidding. I'm just not willing to accept that there are that many morons here.


Well I was kidding and I'm sure most others were too. Though I would say that the world would probably be better off without humans.


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 7, 2010)

blaze200 said:


> Well I was kidding and I'm sure most others were too. Though I would say that the world would probably be better off without humans.


Don't be quick to assume "most".

I was kidding as well, but I'm guessing that at least half of the kill all humans are serious, which is still creepy.


----------



## Unsilenced (Jan 7, 2010)

blaze200 said:


> Well I was kidding and I'm sure most others were too. Though I would say that the world would probably be better off without humans.



It ain't better if no-one is there to like it more.


----------



## kashaki (Jan 7, 2010)

Enslave


----------



## blaze200 (Jan 7, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> It ain't better if no-one is there to like it more.


I guess it depends if you count the animals and plant life.


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Jan 7, 2010)

Wipe everyone out, just erase humanity from time and allow other species to evolve. 

Humanity is meaningless, the universe doesn't care about a single species on a miniature planet in the ass-end of the Milky Way. Therefore, any argument that "humanity has potential for good" is inherently irrelevant, as this potential for good is only relevant to humanity itself, not the universe.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Wipe everyone out, just erase humanity from time and allow other species to evolve.
> 
> Humanity is meaningless, the universe doesn't care about a single species on a miniature planet in the ass-end of the Milky Way. Therefore, any argument that "humanity has potential for good" is inherently irrelevant, as this potential for good is only relevant to humanity itself, not the universe.



IF humans were not stuck up their own asses all the time and actually cared about something other than themselves humanity would have potential to do good. No one can predict the future, who knows what humans will do in the future.


----------



## Attaman (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Wipe everyone out, just erase humanity from time and allow other species to evolve.
> 
> Humanity is meaningless, the universe doesn't care about a single species on a miniature planet in the ass-end of the Milky Way. Therefore, any argument that "humanity has potential for good" is inherently irrelevant, as this potential for good is only relevant to humanity itself, not the universe.


By this logic, however, any one species should not be cared for.  We should - as we stand right now - exploit Earth for everything it's worth as it's just one planet in a galaxy of millions in a universe of billions.  What's the loss of a few species?

I don't think many people would appreciate attempts at strip-mining Earth down to its core.

EDIT:  We don't care only about ourselves.  We care about ourselves _first and foremost_, there's a difference.  And it doesn't happen to be just coincidence that when one species looks out for itself and starts doing good, other species start getting screwed over.  Birds of Prey for instance would do a lot worse off if all their prey could reliably fight them off, say, 90% of the time.


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Jan 7, 2010)

Attaman said:


> By this logic, however, any one species should not be cared for.  We should - as we stand right now - exploit Earth for everything it's worth as it's just one planet in a galaxy of millions in a universe of billions.  What's the loss of a few species?
> 
> I don't think many people would appreciate attempts at strip-mining Earth down to its core.
> 
> EDIT:  We don't care only about ourselves.  We care about ourselves _first and foremost_, there's a difference.  And it doesn't happen to be just coincidence that when one species looks out for itself and starts doing good, other species start getting screwed over.  Birds of Prey for instance would do a lot worse off if all their prey could reliably fight them off, say, 90% of the time.



The fact that the universe doesn't care about you doesn't mean you shouldn't care about the universe. Since all life is interconnected, screwing up your own planet will end up in screwing yourself over greatly.

In the end, not fucking up your own planet is still selfish, but of that good kind.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Wipe everyone out, just erase humanity from time and allow other species to evolve.
> 
> Humanity is meaningless, the universe doesn't care about a single species on a miniature planet in the ass-end of the Milky Way. Therefore, any argument that "humanity has potential for good" is inherently irrelevant, as this potential for good is only relevant to humanity itself, not the universe.



If we're talking about things that are relevant to the universe, why not destroy the universe itself? Why anything? As far we know, we are the only thing out there capable of lending any meaning to anything. A rock does not ponder the meaning of it's own existence, a man does. If a star falls in a universe and there's no human there to see it, is there really any point?


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## Mikael Grizzly (Jan 7, 2010)

That's a very narrow-minded and anthropocentric view. The universe doesn't need us to exist and the presence of a human observer doesn't lend any meaning to anything.

We want for our existence to matter, so we create philosophies, religions and theories to pretend that we matter.

But in the end, we are just a grain of sand on the desert of the universe.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> That's a very narrow-minded and anthropocentric view. The universe doesn't need us to exist and the presence of a human observer doesn't lend any meaning to anything.
> 
> We want for our existence to matter, so we create philosophies, religions and theories to pretend that we matter.
> 
> But in the end, we are just a grain of sand on the desert of the universe.



Just because something may seem inferior or irrelevant, or has no meaning, does not mean it has no right to exist.

EDIT: Sorry, that is just the impression I am getting from your posts.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> That's a very narrow-minded and anthropocentric view. The universe doesn't need us to exist and the presence of a human observer doesn't lend any meaning to anything.
> 
> We want for our existence to matter, so we create philosophies, religions and theories to pretend that we matter.
> 
> But in the end, we are just a grain of sand on the desert of the universe.



So you're a nihilist, good for you. But then you have to realize that our "harm" to the universe isn't really harm is it? Meaningless harm to a meaningless universe done by meaningless harm isn't really much to get your panties in a bunch about is it? In the mean time, I like living, and that means something to me, so you killing me (and all 6 billion other people) for something you think is meaningless really doesn't make sense does it?


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## PheonixStar (Jan 7, 2010)

Did you know that a grain of sand can cause catastrophic brake failure on a car if it lands correctly? I wouldn't be so dismissive of sand, if I were you.

That which is meaningless one day and in one way, can become the catalyst of a life or death struggle the next.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 7, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> So you're a nihilist, good for you. But then you have to realize that our "harm" to the universe isn't really harm is it? Meaningless harm to a meaningless universe done by meaningless harm isn't really much to get your panties in a bunch about is it? In the mean time, I like living, and that means something to me, so you killing me (and all 6 billion other people) for something you think is meaningless really doesn't make sense does it?



Can't wait to see his reply to this. You drive a good point from where I'm sitting.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOOc5yiIWkg

Everything that humans do is natural. Think about it.


"Save the planet? What? Are these people fucking kidding me? Save the planet? We haven't even learned how to save ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another. We're gonna 'save the fuckin' planet'? ..... there is nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The people are fucked.... The planet is doing great, been here for 4 &1/2 billion years..."


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## Thatch (Jan 7, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Did you know that a grain of sand can cause catastrophic brake failure on a car if it lands correctly? I wouldn't be so dismissive of sand, if I were you.
> 
> That which is meaningless one day and in one way, can become the catalyst of a life or death struggle the next.



That's a good point, only in this case, there may be no car. Just a desert.

But we wouldn't know, if we'd kill ourselves right now. That's enough of a reason to live on, IMO.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 7, 2010)

szopaw said:


> That's a good point, only in this case, there may be no car. Just a desert.
> 
> But we wouldn't know, if we'd kill ourselves right now. That's enough of a reason to live on, IMO.



Oh, my point wasn't that we could "cause a wreck," my point was that you just don't know how significant or insignificant something is. Anything, even tiny things that seem pointless like grains of sand, can become significant.  Sometimes their significance isn't known or understood until later, too.

For example, if someone's brakes fail and they do wreck, they probably won't know until much later that the culprit was a mere, insignificant grain of sand. Or if a bunch of people get sick from a batch of food, the culprit could be as simple as a single bacteria that multiplied. Or conversely, mold can save lives (penicillin). 

So whether we're significant or not is really a matter of perspective and circumstance. And we don't know that much about our circumstances because our perspectives are limited.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 7, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Oh, my point wasn't that we could "cause a wreck," my point was that you just don't know how significant or insignificant something is. Anything, even tiny things that seem pointless like grains of sand, can become significant.  Sometimes their significance isn't known or understood until later, too.
> 
> For example, if someone's brakes fail and they do wreck, they probably won't know until much later that the culprit was a mere, insignificant grain of sand. Or if a bunch of people get sick from a batch of food, the culprit could be as simple as a single bacteria that multiplied. Or conversely, mold can save lives (penicillin).
> 
> So whether we're significant or not is really a matter of perspective and circumstance. And we don't know that much about our circumstances because our perspectives are limited.



Well, if we take you original example of aliens deciding to destroy us or not, and we assume that they perhaps think we are insignificant, meaningless, pointless even, I don't think any of those is good enough reason to blow us all up. Would you go to another planet with life and blow them up?

I personally don't think there is any valid reason out there, to destroy humans. Yes we have bad humans, but we also have humans who do care. Would it be fair to punish the good humans just because a group of humans are bad? Not fair to paint everyone with the same brush is it.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 7, 2010)

I personally can see both sides of it. 

As I say, you never know how significant something is or not. If you had a different perspective, you might think that humans ARE a threat to the greater universe. Perhaps they don't think humans are meaningless or pointless at all.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Jan 7, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> So you're a nihilist, good for you. But then you have to realize that our "harm" to the universe isn't really harm is it? Meaningless harm to a meaningless universe done by meaningless harm isn't really much to get your panties in a bunch about is it? In the mean time, I like living, and that means something to me, so you killing me (and all 6 billion other people) for something you think is meaningless really doesn't make sense does it?



The fact that something doesn't have any inherent meaning doesn't mean it's automatically meaningless. 

In the end, yes, nothing matters, because Earth will turn into a barren rock in about a billion years and cease to exist completely in five billion years. 

As to why I'd like to see humanity disappear? It's simple: homo sapiens interferes with the existence of other species we share the planet with far beyond natural needs, out of some misguided sense of entitlement to them.



RandyDarkshade said:


> Just because something may seem inferior or irrelevant, or has no meaning, does not mean it has no right to exist.



I'm not denying anyone's right to exist (assuming there is one), but I do find reprehensible the existence of a species that can consciously exploit their own planet beyond natural needs.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> As to why I'd like to see humanity disappear? It's simple: homo sapiens interferes with the existence of other species we share the planet with far beyond natural needs, out of some misguided sense of entitlement to them.



Right. Humans are the only ones that interfere with the operation of the planet. Any other animal would know better. Right. 

...

Only wrong. 

Contrary to what _Pocahontas_ may have taught you, nature is not a happy place. Animals in the wild kill each other just about whenever they can. A lion doesn't give half a shit whether or not a gazelle is endangered, it's fucking food. Locusts will eat land barren without a second thought. Lemmings will fuck until they're so overpopulated that they need to jump of cliffs in a desperate attempt to find more land. They don't plan, they just eat and fuck until there's not enough food and starvation keeps them in check.

 Humanity's only sin is being really good at what it does. We're successful. We hunt better, fuck harder and live longer than all those other species. We are, simply put, the best. Survival of the fittest. 

Humanity is, however, different from all other species in another was as well. We _can _plan. We can choose not to eat, not to breed. We can deny resources already for the taking. This is, quite frankly, amazing. And what's more, humans can help other animals. No other species does this in quite the same way. Sure, you have symbiosis, but that's because both species benefit. You have commensalisim, but that's because one species doesn't give a shit. Only humans can up and decide that they are going to take care of a member of another species and get nothing in return.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 7, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> I'm not denying anyone's right to exist (assuming there is one), but I do find reprehensible the existence of a species that can consciously exploit their own planet beyond natural needs.



So you acknowledge that human beings aren't natural creatures?

In which case, your argument that we're an insignificant, pointless pebble in the shoe of life is insensible.

There are two alternatives:

Humans are NOT natural. Thus, they have a responsibility to behave as if they are NOT natural, and accept a higher moral behavior.

Humans ARE natural. In which case, everything that they do is perfectly natural.

You can't have it both ways... if we are natural creatures, then you can't say that we're doing something unnatural.


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## joey2joey (Jan 8, 2010)

My normal side says: Killing billions of people because you don't like certain aspects of a select few is irrational. Like it or not, we are not much different from the rest of the animal kingdom. We should fix our flaws, not kill ourselves because of them... but if you disagree and think humanity should die, then why don't you go ahead and start it off with yourselves?

My psycho side: EXPLOSIONS GO BOOM!

Conclusion: Just blow up the Westboro Baptist Church.


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## Wait Wait (Jan 8, 2010)

god_damn_ y'all retarded


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## Mikael Grizzly (Jan 8, 2010)

Unsilenced said:


> Right. Humans are the only ones that interfere with the operation of the planet. Any other animal would know better. Right.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Operative word of my post: _natural needs_. Other species do not go out of their way specifically to kill other animals, just so that their whim can be satisfied. 

Unless there are tigers killing elephants because of their genitals being a valuable aphrodisiac.



PheonixStar said:


> So you acknowledge that human beings aren't natural creatures?
> 
> In which case, your argument that we're an insignificant, pointless pebble in the shoe of life is insensible.
> 
> ...



Humans are natural, but they are behaving unnaturally and irrationally.


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## Unsilenced (Jan 8, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Operative word of my post: _natural needs_. Other species do not go out of their way specifically to kill other animals, just so that their whim can be satisfied.
> 
> Unless there are tigers killing elephants because of their genitals being a valuable aphrodisiac.



Poachers kill elephants for money, which befits them. Killing for benefit, just as any other animal. As for the people buying the elephant... parts, they (think they) are improving their chances of reproduction, also something that all animals do.


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## south syde dobe (Jan 8, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Did you know that a grain of sand can cause catastrophic brake failure on a car if it lands correctly? I wouldn't be so dismissive of sand, if I were you.
> 
> That which is meaningless one day and in one way, can become the catalyst of a life or death struggle the next.


 
Also if one can control sand, they could just as easily as crush someone with a shit ton of it with enough pressure applied...Gaara would definitally show you how sand can be used in combat


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## joey2joey (Jan 8, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Other species do not go out of their way specifically to kill other animals, just so that their whim can be satisfied.




That's not actually true.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 8, 2010)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Humans are natural, but they are behaving unnaturally and irrationally.



There is no such thing as unnatural, unless you believe in the supernatural. 

The definition of "unnatural" is "contrary to the laws of nature." And there is only supernatural, or natural. Humans cannot possibly defy the laws of nature. It's impossible.

Law of gravity... we can fly, sure, but so can birds. And none of the ways that we fly actually DEFY the law of gravity, it just finds ways around it according to other existing laws of nature.

Plastic? Created according to laws of nature, because we cannot defy them.

War? Everything in war works under the laws of nature. Hydrogen bombs? Work according to natural laws. Guns? Work according to natural laws.

All the tools we can use? We can do so because of a law of nature-- prehensile thumbs.

EVERYTHING WE DO is natural... or we aren't natural.

You cannot have it both ways. 

EVERYTHING WE DO, we do because it is NATURAL for us to do so-- otherwise we couldn't do it. If we are natural beings, and there is no SUPERnatural force.... then whatever we do is natural for us.

You can't claim that only nature exists, that there is no supernatural force in the universe, that there is no point or meaning beyond nature....

Then claim that humans behave unnaturally.

Whatever we do, be it plastic, murder, destruction of environment, self destruction, etc... it is natural for us. If it were not, it would be impossible for us to do it.

If you are going to claim that anything at all in the world is outside of nature, then you have to explain HOW it can possibly be outside of nature. Nothing that is a natural being can do something unnatural. It's an oxymoron.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 8, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> There is no such thing as unnatural, unless you believe in the supernatural.



This true, I believe in supernatural but that is for another thread.



> The definition of "unnatural" is "contrary to the laws of nature." And there is only supernatural, or natural. Humans cannot possibly defy the laws of nature. It's impossible.



True.



> Law of gravity... we can fly, sure, but so can birds. And none of the ways that we fly actually DEFY the law of gravity, it just finds ways around it according to other existing laws of nature.



If a plane shuts off it's engines, it wall fall back to earth, if a bird stops flapping it's wings and folds them in, the bird will fall straight to earth. 



> Plastic? Created according to laws of nature, because we cannot defy them.



Chemicals along with many other materials on this planet are all natural materials, including gases, humans have just had the intelligence to make use of the "natural" materials the world has on offer. I am sure we can make a list longer than our arms of items made using natural materials

Just few used everyday:

Metal
Brick
Wood
Glass



> War? Everything in war works under the laws of nature. Hydrogen bombs? Work according to natural laws. Guns? Work according to natural laws.



You should add this to the war thread lol.



> All the tools we can use? We can do so because of a law of nature-- prehensile thumbs.



True, all my tools are made from metal, a natural material, from my spanners to my wood saw, screw drivers to hammers.



> EVERYTHING WE DO is natural... or we aren't natural.
> 
> You cannot have it both ways.
> 
> ...



Even though humans can and do destroy the environment, animals can do it to for one and for two, some humans do try to do their best at restoring the environment by planting trees etc. Each human has a different personality, and if you observe animals I think you will find they all have different personalty's just like humans.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 8, 2010)

I know everyone's different. 

My point is that so often both sides of the atheist-theist argument use the most ridiculous thing in the world as "support" of their arguments... neither side seems to be able to understand that you can't declare humans to be natural (or conversely, unnatural) creatures... and then argue the opposite about how they're supposed to behave.

Theists often declare that we are created beings. Then they are argue that homosexuality is wrong because it's "not natural," and humans have to follow the laws of nature. So then you point out that the laws of nature say that it's fine to rape and murder and steal. At which point they begin to argue that humans are held to different standards. So... which is it? Natural standards, or supernatural?

Then there are the atheists, who claim that humans are entirely natural beings. Not created, and not above the laws of nature. Then they make insane comments like this guy, "humans do unnatural damage to the Earth." Well, which is it, is everything we do natural, or isn't it? Are we natural beings, or do we have a supernatural set of rules that are above and beyond nature's rule of "anything goes (since you are incapable of breaking any natural laws, anyway)"?


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## Attaman (Jan 8, 2010)

About the "animals don't murder for shits and giggles" bit:  Look at Chimps and Dolphins, who'll slaughter their neighbors but do absolutely nothing with the bodies.  Look at cats, who'll skin rabbits alive / kill mice by the dozen, but when done having their fun killing just walk away leaving the carcasses to rot.  None of those things needed to be hunted or killed:  They just were because - hey - it was fun for them.

Oh, right, it's natural for them so they're excused.  But humans are "unnatural", so they can't be excused.  Very convenient.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 8, 2010)

Attaman said:


> About the "animals don't murder for shits and giggles" bit:  Look at Chimps and Dolphins, who'll slaughter their neighbors but do absolutely nothing with the bodies.  Look at cats, who'll skin rabbits alive / kill mice by the dozen, but when done having their fun killing just walk away leaving the carcasses to rot.  None of those things needed to be hunted or killed:  They just were because - hey - it was fun for them.
> 
> Oh, right, it's natural for them so they're excused.  But humans are "unnatural", so they can't be excused.  Very convenient.



Our friend Mr Grizzly seems to have forgotten some "facts of life" Either way he can not argue his side anymore.


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## PheonixStar (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah, this whole "what humans are doing is unnatural" paradigm seems to be widespread no matter the beliefs of the people discussing things. Grizzly argues that we're pointless, meaningless, etc. But then again, we're also unnatural, and a terrible threat to Earth.

I mean... say we blew up Earth. Would the UNIVERSE, so vast that we cannot even possibly conceptualize how vast it is... really give a shit? It's one tiny speck of dust on a beach, right? So what if it gets pulverized. Or dirty.


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## joey2joey (Jan 8, 2010)

PheonixStar said:


> Then there are the atheists, who claim that humans are entirely natural beings. Not created, and not above the laws of nature. Then they make insane comments like this guy, "humans do unnatural damage to the Earth."



I don't. I think we don't even hold a candle to chloroplast when it comes to environmental destruction.


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## Endless Humiliation (Jan 9, 2010)

Mikael, do you know Pentti Linkola?

You might want to look him up.


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## LonelyKitsune (Jan 9, 2010)

Well im only 22 and ive seen and done more than mast people in there 40s, so ive seen the dark side of humanity... their distructive nature... ive been to war, done and seen things that would make me think that the world WOULD be better off without humans distroying it. But then again, no living creature is perfect and well... not all humans are war hungry barbarians... NOT TO SAY THATS WHAT I WAS!!! i just felt i had i duty to my country, i had such a happy life due to this country, what better way to repay my country than with my life.
and before you say "i would so kill all humans" just know that taking another's life isnt easy! THIS ISNT SOME VIDEO GAME!!! i dont know maybe humanity needs to be wiped out, i think what im trying to say is i cant be the one to do it...


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