# Another day, another hacking



## Accountability (Feb 26, 2011)

So it appears that another admin had their account hacked into (If you don't believe me click here, I started a new thread to keep the other one on topic). So what was it this time? Their personal email again? Has FA learned nothing since the last time this happened?


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 26, 2011)

Rumors -> facts -> QQ (translation) thread lock.
To answer your question though none of the mods (currently online) including myself have heard anything about a recent hacking. So please don't start threads like this based on rumors. EDIT: Now if that changes and I hear some confirmation of this I'll unlock this thread and post the info myself. Or someone else will.


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 26, 2011)

Just to summarize: Rumors aren't proof, Accountability.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Accountability said:


> So it appears that another admin had their account hacked into (If you don't believe me click here, I started a new thread to keep the other one on topic). So what was it this time? Their personal email again? Has FA learned nothing since the last time this happened?


 
We are aware of exactly how this went down, and have already taken a step that should fix how this went down from happening again. In specifics, someone broke into an admins IM and e-mail account, then contacted multiple admins saying that they had forgotten their password, and that the password reset was not working. One admin, after going through and verifying information as correct (I saw the log there), changed and reset the password on the account.

The admin control panel was not touched, as that is on a separate password on a system that only yak and net-cat can change and alter. However, anything outside the control panel was available to the hacker - specifically, the admin's personal notes and the histories on users. Oh, and if he wanted to post a journal with a picture embedded in it, I guess.

In light of this event, we are changing how we handle password and e-mail changes on behalf of other admins. Further, the admin who let the hacker in has been talked to, and is upset with his/her action that led to this. As this is a recent issue that we've been caught up on, this is as far as it has had a chance to progress for any punishment action to be considered by the higher up admins.

For the record, Rhainor, the admin who was hacked, is de-adminned, and at his request is remaining so for the time being. His job is bumping him up to full time for an indefinite period of time starting in the near future (I recall starting in a week), which would eat up the free time he has been able to use on FA issues.

I think that sums up the situation, really.

*written after a bit*

Also, I was in the mod chatroom with Trp and Cerb when they linked this thread, and went straight to writing this instead of informing them that I was responding. My bad on that - as I said, it is a developing situation.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Tentatively reopening this thread - if I feel that nothing constructive is being said, I'll close it again.


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## Lobar (Feb 26, 2011)

Well, now that the danger of inactive admin accounts has been demonstrated (hell, that was probably the point of the attack), will Dragoneer finally start taking security seriously and de-admin the rest of them?


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 26, 2011)

Lobar said:


> Well, now that the danger of inactive admin accounts has been demonstrated (hell, that was probably the point of the attack), will Dragoneer finally start taking security seriously and de-admin the rest of them?


 Ironically, only time will tell.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Lobar said:


> Well, now that the danger of inactive admin accounts has been demonstrated (hell, that was probably the point of the attack), will Dragoneer finally start taking security seriously and de-admin the rest of them?


 
Really, looking over how this even played out (and assuming that the thread on lulz.net is, indeed accurate), it's less of a danger of inactive admin accounts (In this case, Rhainor wasn't that inactive, and not at all as a regular user), and more of exposing where we really need to shape up some additional internal policies, and as shown in Cerb and Trp's posts above, improve communication between admins.

As I said, I'm evolving some policy and procedure suggestions for these situations, as this wasn't the first time something like this was attempted - and I almost fell for it both times myself. While this is a failure in our part to address the situation, it is more specifically a failure on my part for not realizing it as well and coming up with the solutions I am now proffering.

As for improving communication between mainsite and forum staff, I'm suggesting two non-exclusive options in the admin forums - I'm not mentioning them here, because I have no clue how well either would work out or would be received, and I came up with them only about an hour or so ago. We fumbled the ball here - thankfully, not as bad as in the past, but the goal is to not fumble it at all.

This does not change the fact that admins that are inactive as admins is a dragging factor on the site, though. I'm trying to stay out of that argument, however, as I have my own priorities on the matter, and my voice would just get lost in the shouting anyhow. *chuckle*


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## Freehaven (Feb 26, 2011)

Social engineering: have _any_ of you admins ever even _heard_ of it?


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> Social engineering: have _any_ of you admins ever even _heard_ of it?


 
With great disgust, aye. It's a misuse of the term as I came to know it, which is intentionally working to shift a societies values and perceptions over time, for a presumably positive end result. 

My distaste of what we call it doesn't change the fact that we as a team got suckered into it this time, and are going to be taking steps (some already in place) to prevent this from happening. For one thing, the admin control panel is safe from these sorts of maneuvers, so aside from a few perks, someone breaking into an admin account gets... nothing a user couldn't do to their own account. 

I'm also suggesting a few things on how to handle situations like this. Yes, a bit of fixing the fence after the cows are gone, but once we fix the fence we can get new cows.

Edit:

Inb4 "Don't have a cow man", Sacred cows, India, Where's the Beef, and cheese references.


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## Freehaven (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Yes, a bit of fixing the fence after the cows are gone, but once we fix the fence we can get new cows.


 
I'm gonna bite my tongue here, but suffice to say, this better be a wake-up call to a certain someone.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> I'm gonna bite my tongue here, but suffice to say, this better be a wake-up call to a certain someone.


 
A few someones, in my opinion. There's more than just a few irregularities that this event has shown, that I've been quietly pondering possible answers to. I still don't have *good* answers for them, and I want to wait until I actually can do more than go "Hey this needs to be fixed but I have no clue I am so helpful right guys?".


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## Freehaven (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> A few someones, in my opinion. There's more than just a few irregularities that this event has shown, that I've been quietly pondering possible answers to. I still don't have *good* answers for them, and I want to wait until I actually can do more than go "Hey this needs to be fixed but I have no clue I am so helpful right guys?".


 
At the very least, some sort of answer or response - ANYTHING beyond the usual PR smokescreen - from the top of the pyramid would be nice.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> At the very least, some sort of answer or response - ANYTHING beyond the usual PR smokescreen - from the top of the pyramid would be nice.


 
Considering the timeframe and timing of the events here, I'm not expecting anything from Dragoneer soon, soon being defined as between now and... erf, let's say maybe 6 hours? Other, more senior admins might reply sooner, but I'm guessing that 'top of the pyramid' means Dragoneer solely. 

I'm going home now, so any replies will have to wait about an hour or so. Cutting this one short, too.


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## Freehaven (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Considering the timeframe and timing of the events here, I'm not expecting anything from Dragoneer soon, soon being defined as between now and... erf, let's say maybe 6 hours? Other, more senior admins might reply sooner, but I'm guessing that 'top of the pyramid' means Dragoneer solely.


 
Well, a response from Dear Leader would be nice, as opposed to the lack of response to the userbase about the current situation involving the admins. But if other senior admins want to speak up - honestly and openly and without being antagonistic towards those of us who want the truth instead of a load of bullshit - then by all means, I welcome that too.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:
			
		

> we really need [...] some additional internal policies [...] I'm evolving some policy and procedure suggestions for these situations [...] the solutions I am now proffering [...] I'm suggesting two non-exclusive options [...] going to be taking steps [...] I'm also suggesting a few things [...] a bit of fixing the fence after the cows are gone, but once we fix the fence we can get new cows [...] I've been quietly pondering possible answers



Much waffling, little action.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> Much waffling, little action.


 
It's early in the morning, and there's not much I can do beyond what I've already done until I get more feedback from the admins. Jesus Christ, dude, I'm not a fairy, I don't have a magic wand I could wave to make things better and choose not to. I am one (singular) member of a team (multiple), and do not act in a vacuum, nor do I have the authority to proclaim new policies that affect anyone beyond myself. 

"I'm working on stuff so that this doesn't happen again" is "Much waffling, little action"? That is all the action I *can* do at this point in time, is come up with solutions that fix things. Would you rather I don't, and say "There's nothing that I can do here"? Something tells me you'd mock that decision as well.



Freehaven said:


> Well, a response from Dear Leader would be nice, as opposed to the lack of response to the userbase about the current situation involving the admins. But if other senior admins want to speak up - honestly and openly and without being antagonistic towards those of us who want the truth instead of a load of bullshit - then by all means, I welcome that too.


 
Considering how quickly this became an issue, and about what time it is now, I'm not surprised that I'm the only admin to respond on the forums about this. 

On the other hand, I'm not certain what additional feedback can be given. 

*further edit*

As of right now, we've implemented a short-term solution via code to prevent this from happening, while we're working on a long-term solution.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

I would rather people be honest and say: "There is nothing further I can do at this time ", than to talk about "policies", "solutions", "steps" and other PR speak chestnuts. 

If someone said there was nothing they could do ATM, I'd think: "Good on them for being honest and plain-speaking". 

A penny's worth of plain-speaking is worth an infinite amount of "solutions", "policies" and "steps". 

To say that:



> we're working on a long-term solution.


 gives no concrete information at all. It is just another vague promise.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> I would rather people be honest and say: "There is nothing further I can do at this time ", than to talk about "policies", "solutions", "steps" and other PR speak chestnuts.
> 
> If someone said there was nothing they could do ATM, I'd think: "Good on them for being honest and plain-speaking".
> 
> ...


 
We are working on a long term solution. It gives no concrete information, because there's no concrete information to give. In the short term, we've stopped it from happening, we're looking to see what we can do in the long term - right now, we're still tossing ideas back and forth.

Beyond that, there's nothing further we can do at this time.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> It gives no concrete information, because there's no concrete  information to give. In the short term, we've stopped it from happening,  we're looking to see what we can do in the long term - right now, we're  still tossing ideas back and forth.
> 
> Beyond that, there's nothing further we can do at this time.


 
OK, thank you.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

I had posted to the staff about account security and it seems it was ignored :/ So people need to write policy on top of policy or make more policy...


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## Rhainor (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> For the record, Rhainor, the admin who was hacked, is de-adminned, and at his request is remaining so for the time being. His job is bumping him up to full time for an indefinite period of time starting in the near future (I recall starting in a week), which would eat up the free time he has been able to use on FA issues.


 Actually, it started this past week.

The lulz crowd will probably call this a smokescreen, but for the record: I'd been considering stepping down anyway (probably not permanently, but stepping down nonetheless).  Some other things have been taking up most of the free time I had, and spending what was left dealing with Trouble Tickets on a furry site is not how I define "relaxing".  When I got moved to full-time at work, the decision became final, and it was just a question of when; this seemed as good a time as any.

<sarcasm>
Thanks for the extra shit on top of the shit I already had, lulz.  Stay classy.
</sarcasm>


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## Love! (Feb 26, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I had posted to the staff about account security and it seems it was ignored :/ So people need to write policy on top of policy or make more policy...


 the furaffinity policy crunch really is the result of not enough policy-generating admins and then not enough policy to policy the policy of generating admins



Lobar said:


> Well, now that the danger of inactive admin  accounts has been demonstrated (hell, that was probably the point of the  attack), will Dragoneer finally start taking security seriously and  de-admin the rest of them?


 only the shadow knows...


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## ArielMT (Feb 26, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> Social engineering: have _any_ of you admins ever even _heard_ of it?


 
One of the victims has, and I should've seen it coming a mile away.  He got from me what should have been a near-useless piece of information, but only in hindsight did I see how valuable that piece made the puzzle.


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## Volkodav (Feb 26, 2011)

AHah
ahaha sorry what
Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of me laughing at how PATHETIC this is.


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## Pi (Feb 26, 2011)

Remember, Summercat, how I was saying that stacking on extra layers of indirection for communication was not a winning proposition? Is this thread and the related incident not clear enough evidence to you?

I've got a breathtakingly simple plan for mopping up around this. You'd rather make me play chinese telephone to get Yak to hear it.

Also, Trpdwarf: Your response to a reported security problem _should not be_ "RUMORS QQ LOL UR JUST CRYING AND BITCHING XD!!!!". You are a bad administrator and should feel bad.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

We need again a "Steward" or another lead admin, we're getting nowhere. Communication is not going through and too many Indians are running around trying to be Chiefs because the ones that want to help are also *embarrassed* by this. The thing is while I can do this...it's not something I think I want to do for the long run. Sorry but being in charge of a furry site isn't exactly in my tastes. I don't mind helping out because I like...well art, and this is one of few sites that has enough of a scope to post art of different varieties as an illustrator.  

Also Trpdwarf and Pi, let's stop the bickering, I know it's a knee jerk reaction to each other due to history, but let's not try to do the usual tit for tat.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 26, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> We need again a "Steward" or another lead admin, we're getting nowhere. Communication is not going through and too many Indians are running around trying to be Chiefs because the ones that want to help are also *embarrassed* by this. The thing is while I can do this...it's not something I think I want to do for the long run. Sorry but being in charge of a furry site isn't exactly in my tastes. I don't mind helping out because I like...well art, and this is one of few sites that has enough of a scope to post art of different varieties as an illustrator.
> 
> Also Trpdwarf and Pi, let's stop the bickering, I know it's a knee jerk reaction to each other due to history, but let's not try to do the usual tit for tat.


 
Uh, I wasn't bickering last I checked. I honestly based on the information I had and after talking to people in IRC thought that this was a case of something jumping the gun on rumor. I didn't want to see another shit posting thread with people flinging wild rumors around. Perhaps if we work on that communication thing I spoke of earlier which I know we all will, then stuff like this can be avoided.

And to PI: It was a reported security problem but was there any other then here say at the time posted to back it up? No. Just a link to "What this person said" instead of something more legitimate. So, people need to keep that in mind. Make threads in that context and well, you may find some of us not taking it too seriously.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

Trpdwarf said:


> Uh, I wasn't bickering last I checked. I honestly based on the information I had and after talking to people in IRC thought that this was a case of something jumping the gun on rumor.


 
The response though comes off snarky the QQ stuff, I am with you on the second paragraph of your initial response however.

Let's put it this way, your initial response was a reaction that you assumed someone jumped the gun. You were hoisted by your own petard when you didn't realize that the response was a "jumping the gun" too (and yes, lack of communication was part of that).


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 26, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> The response though comes off snarky the QQ stuff, I am with you on the second paragraph of your initial response however.
> 
> Let's put it this way, your initial response was a reaction that you assumed someone jumped the gun. You were hoisted by your own petard when you didn't realize that the response was a "jumping the gun" too (and yes, lack of communication was part of that).


 
I didn't intend for it to be snarky or rude I suppose I can see where people come off seeing it as that. Either way this is something for people to learn from.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks for understanding Trp, of course the next issue is what now. This feels like the same pattern over and over again and with admins that should know better. I already wrote the guidelines because people kept "talking about the talk" and none do the walk. So I went and wrote it and even encouraged other tips for discussion. It gets buried. That's just frustrating. :/ (not at you specifically, but just the mentality of the whole situation).


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## Volkodav (Feb 26, 2011)

I have a few things to point out.
1. When signing up for a website, it usually says "DO NOT GIVE OUT YOUR PASSWORD" or "ADMINS WILL NOT ASK YOU FOR YOUR PASSWORD"
2. What admin forgets their password? Why is it not written down IRL? _[I know he didnt actually forget it]_
3. Why do all the admins have eachothers passwords?

C: Just somethin to... roll around in your lil noggins for a bit.


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## ArielMT (Feb 26, 2011)

Before I'm asked, I offer an apology.  I'm sorry.  I am truly sorry for the part I played in this incident, no matter how small it was.



Clayton said:


> I have a few things to point out.
> 1. When signing up for a website, it usually says "DO NOT GIVE OUT YOUR PASSWORD" or "ADMINS WILL NOT ASK YOU FOR YOUR PASSWORD"
> 2. What admin forgets their password? Why is it not written down IRL? _[I know he didnt actually forget it]_
> 3. Why do all the admins have eachothers passwords?
> ...


 
1. That's not what happened here.  An "admin" asked for his password, not someone else's.
2. We shouldn't have worried about why a password is lost/forgotten so much as why the email address was forgotten.  FA is the only site I know of that requires users to type email addresses for password recovery; not even banks do that.
3. We don't have access to user login passwords.  (If any admin does, then that's a security lapse that I'll immediately quit over.)  But like any site, admins do have the ability to generate replacement passwords.


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## AshleyAshes (Feb 26, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I had posted to the staff about account security and it seems it was ignored :/ So people need to write policy on top of policy or make more policy...



It seems that what you need is a policy that dictates that all policies must be read.  But since they arn't reading the policies now, they won't read any new ones.

Kicking some serious ass in the admin ranks would be more effective.


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## Volkodav (Feb 26, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> 1. That's not what happened here.  An "admin" asked for his password, not someone else's.
> 2. We shouldn't have worried about why a password is lost/forgotten so much as why the email address was forgotten.  FA is the only site I know of that requires users to type email addresses for password recovery; not even banks do that.
> 3. We don't have access to user login passwords.  (If any admin does, then that's a security lapse that I'll immediately quit over.)  But like any site, admins do have the ability to generate replacement passwords.


1/2 Yes, I realize. But admins shouldn't ask for eachothers passwords anyways.
3. OOPS. I just re-read it and now I understand. My bad


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## reian (Mar 2, 2011)

A mistake was made, they are trying to find a more permanent solution, so lets move on with our lives...I'm quite sure we could all spend a little less time on FA for a day and still be living.


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## Kayla (Mar 2, 2011)

Is there going to be a mass reset of e-mail and passwords similar to the last time that FurAffinity had that huge security leak?


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## Smelge (Mar 2, 2011)

Kayla said:


> Is there going to be a mass reset of e-mail and passwords similar to the last time that FurAffinity had that huge security leak?


 
Why?

The hack in this thread is about someone using available information and a less than security concious mod to get a new password for an inactive mods account. It wasn't a hack, it was someone being clever and a few people being stupid. The current DDOS isn't a security issue. it's just doing the mechanised version of putting a brick on the F5 key.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 2, 2011)

reian said:


> A mistake was made, they are trying to find a more permanent solution, so lets move on with our lives...I'm quite sure we could all spend a little less time on FA for a day and still be living.


 
No, I'd also prefer the same mistakes stop being made. A similar incident happened where someone posed as a moderator and that result got an innocent user banned for a bit.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 2, 2011)

Kayla said:


> Is there going to be a mass reset of e-mail and passwords similar to the last time that FurAffinity had that huge security leak?


 No. The admin functions require a separate login from the regular use account.


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## reian (Mar 2, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> No, I'd also prefer the same mistakes stop being made. A similar incident happened where someone posed as a moderator and that result got an innocent user banned for a bit.


 
I remember...And honestly, if we don't want the same mistakes made, why not actually do something about it?  Besides sit here and tell people how to spend their spare time.  This is ultimately a free site that no one really gets paid to operate, so who are we to tell them what to do?  Do I agree with how they are handling it? No.  Am I going to sit here and yell at them because I can't have my furry arts?  No.  It isn't any of our places unless we start paying for their services.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 2, 2011)

Ask the guy a post above you. I would have already.


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 2, 2011)

reian said:


> I remember...And honestly, if we don't want the same mistakes made, why not actually do something about it?  Besides sit here and tell people how to spend their spare time.  This is ultimately a free site that no one really gets paid to operate, so who are we to tell them what to do?  Do I agree with how they are handling it? No.  Am I going to sit here and yell at them because I can't have my furry arts?  No.  It isn't any of our places unless we start paying for their services.



I agree with the bulk of this. Though with the last part regarding pay, many would argue "the donations" stance. Not saying I personally believe in it. And quite frankly if that's going to be a main excuse as to why people believe they are entitled to bitch or that constant bitching will in any way fix things, they may want to alternatively consider the idea of not donating anymore until something actually improves. FA is like Duke Nukem Forever all over again.


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## Pi (Mar 2, 2011)

Dragoneer said:


> No. The admin functions require a separate login from the regular use account.


 
What does this have to do with anything? *You had a(t least one) massive security leak.* You should expire all of your passwords and have your code audited.

Why do I bother repeating myself? You haven't listened to anyone who's said this in your entire tenure here.


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## Eaglebird (Mar 2, 2011)

reian said:


> This is ultimately a free site that no one really gets paid to operate, so who are we to tell them what to do?


 
fyi we're the people that bring in the page hits so I think we're the ones to tell them what to do.


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 2, 2011)

Eaglebird said:


> fyi we're the people that bring in the page hits so I think we're the ones to tell them what to do.



In the end though doing so is futile. We can not physically take anything over, change coding, etc. I understand the malice of the members, believe for many reasons and on many levels they have the right to feel the way they do, I understand the frustration...at the end of the day though, we're a bunch of screen names bitching at a site owner who clearly doesn't give a damn anymore for whatever reasons of his own. No one who cared about their site, whether they are getting paid or not, would let things get to where they have.

There are a long list of reasons members have for believing they are entitled to tell staff and owner what to do, and I can't say I disagree with many of those reasons. After all the bitching is done though, where exactly did it get us? Quite frankly at this stage the only things I can see actually benefiting this site and...maybe...causing some changes are:

1) Withholding donations until there are significant improvements. If members are going to foot the bill for this site, then by all means they are entitled to have a functioning site they enjoy. If that can't be provided, then quite frankly the site is better off dying.

2) Simply leaving. Perhaps the loss of userbase might actually knock something into people's heads and things will get done. Let's face it, after years of complaints people are still here and still forking over money. For what? For a site that has had the same issues since day one? I mean why do we do that and seriously think they would be in any way motivated to fix anything? 

I know no one wants to see this site go down. I know people don't like to inconvenience of moving all their stuff to another site or rebuilding a fan base elsewhere. No one likes that at this point they poured money into a site for absolutely nothing. It sucks and it's ridiculous but in the years this site has been around where has bitching gotten us? We bitch and bitch and then bitch about bitching. It's sad, but at this point we need to stop sticking around where nothing is getting done, drop our BS of how we're entitled to tell whomever what to do because no one is listening any way, and either accept this garbage as it is, or find another site.


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## Pi (Mar 2, 2011)

Hey, a whole lot of combined bitching has gotten some extremely minor issues fixed recently! I think 3 weeks of repeating "you are exposing a whole lot of services that you shouldn't be" made them close one or two of them!

It's just really sad that it's gotten this way, and a lot of the users don't know that there's a problem. (the administration's attitude of sweeping issues under the rug doesn't help here (and then lying about certain sets of people who want to help)).

Now, give me a bottle of gin and the root password and I'm confident that I could have this place running a lot more smoothly, or at least less insecurely.


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 2, 2011)

Pi said:


> Hey, a whole lot of combined bitching has gotten some extremely minor issues fixed recently! I think 3 weeks of repeating "you are exposing a whole lot of services that you shouldn't be" made them close one or two of them!
> 
> It's just really sad that it's gotten this way, and a lot of the users don't know that there's a problem. (the administration's attitude of sweeping issues under the rug doesn't help here (and then lying about certain sets of people who want to help)). Give me a bottle of gin and the root password and I'm confident that I could have this place running a lot more smoothly.



Hey something got fixed at least right? And I agree with you. It is entirely sad that it has gotten this way. That 3 weeks of complaints produces minor fixes while we still have years worth of site issues and user dissatisfaction that hasn't even been touched.

I dunno. At this point I guess I'm trying to take an unbiased stance and I see the bulk of complaints (not all mind you) as being entirely counterproductive and just adding fuel to the crazy fire.

*Looking at the user's side:* This is a site they enjoy, not to mention one that many rely on for income aka commissions. Many have even put money into it. They're pissed that their money is wasted. They're are pissed their time is wasted. They're pissed that they are lied to. They are pissed that staff shows a general attitude of don't give a crap. They're pissed that they are made to feel that their opinions on a site, that quite frankly without a userbase is nothing, are regarded as unimportant. I don't see one reason in there for users not to be pissed. I myself as a user am thoroughly irked at the stupidity. However the level and extremes of outrage on the part of some will not fix things in the long haul.

*The owner/staff side:* This is something that may have started out as a "OMG this will be cool!" mentality like most sites do. Unfortunately with a lot of sites complaints get disheartening and destroy motivation. It's not a damn excuse to let the site get this way, but it happens. They feel upset because they feel like they are putting in their time and getting nothing but whining. Even if the whining is the result of their own stupidity, that is still disheartening and annoying as well. 

When this site started it was theirs and feel pissed that people would tell them what to do with it. What they don't get is the minute they started accepting money in any amount from others to support this site, they essentially gave up the right to do whatever the hell they feel like. If users support it financially, they are entitled to support it in other ways as well including feedback and complaints.

You have staff that feel helpless because in the end as much as they fight for the users, they have as little power as the rest of us. Taking the brunt of the blow from angry users, then from angry ignorant fellow staff or the owner, causes a don't give a crap attitude there. Again, not right on any level. If you can't handle the position and the potential BS that comes with it, GTFO. Acting like an ass to users or shirking responsibilities fixes nothing.

Coders and programmers making this site feel friggin' powerless over their own creation. Regardless of whether or not Eevee was right in his actions, it's frustrating that something you put your time and effort into is going to hell and your advice to fix it falls on deaf ears. I still think what he did was somewhat childish, but I understand the motivation behind it and want to make problems known and making what he believed to be a last ditch effort to fix things.

There are a lot of powerless people here on both sides that have many valid reasons to be pissed. In the end it all falls on an owner that doesn't care. Whether it's because he's disheartened that his site didn't turn out the way he wanted, can't take the heat of bitching users or is just too friggin' lazy and self-righeous to make changes. The exact reason is irrelevant. As long as he's taking the stance he is and isn't willing to change or pass the buck once and for all to someone who will do what's best for this site and community, the uproar of the community will do nothing. Most of the time all it's probably doing is pushing him further into a childish "whateva, whateva, I'll do what I want" mindset and that's exactly what we don't want. That's been going on for too long already.


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## Bobskunk (Mar 2, 2011)

Plague Wolfen said:


> ...
> 
> 2) Simply leaving. Perhaps the loss of userbase might actually knock something into people's heads and things will get done. Let's face it, after years of complaints people are still here and still forking over money. For what? For a site that has had the same issues since day one? I mean why do we do that and seriously think they would be in any way motivated to fix anything?
> 
> ...


 
I wanted to focus on this for a moment.  Two things keep people on FA at this point: first, there's the self-perpetuating fact that "everyone is on FA."  It's why everyone got on MySpace, and later, moved to/got on Facebook.  The merits of the site are not in question or even relevant, it's simply a matter of existing population.  FA has all the furries because it has all the furries.  SoFurry doesn't have all the furries because it doesn't have all the furries, even though it's technically better.  See also: Youtube vs. Vimeo.  Given the status quo, that won't change.  What will change that is better alternatives and competition, or worse events coming out of Furaffinity.  Further attacks, disclosures of private information, legal trouble, hardware failure, hitting hard limits of the file system or even getting to a point where throwing more hardware at old code is no longer able to make up for the sheer load of the site's normal usage.

At this point, FA is not on top due to its own merits.  It's coasting on inertia, movement that had built up from when it was the only site of its kind, and is only still moving because it hasn't hit a large enough obstacle to bring it to a halt.

If competently coded and non-hangupy alternatives (hi floof/artplz/potentially sofurry's overhaul) end up coming to pass and people finally have a different place to go that isn't fucking ugly or doesn't offer similar features to FA or doesn't have a serious stigma, then you'll see another round of emigration.  All FA would have in its favor is the absolutely massive audience it provides.  The question at that point is whether another site can hit critical mass, where its userbase attracts more and more users the larger and larger it gets.  At that point, FA will have lost the last thing it has going for it: the sheer number of people using it.

At that point, the only thing FA can do to survive is to break out of the comfortable status quo it has coasted on for all these years, but by then it may be too little, too late.  It would no longer be the only site.  It would no longer have all the people.  Monopolies rely on the status quo to survive, and use their power/size to control and lock out markets.  In some cases, it may end up the sole tool at their disposal.  Once that control breaks and others enter the market offer better, faster, cheaper, friendlier goods and services...  Well, you know what happens.

And about "dropping our entitlement BS," I have only one thing to ask.  Why does FA exist?  There has to be some goal to it all, otherwise thousands and thousands of dollars from Dragoneer's own pocket wouldn't be keeping it running.  It's not for business since it's perpetually in the red, it's not a democracy, it's not a charity... so what is its purpose?  Who is it for?

EDIT: hey, "unbiased" kid, the sooner you realize that all sides are not equally valid the sooner you'll stop giving credence to bullshit and start making concrete points


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 2, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> I wanted to focus on this for a moment.  Two things keep people on FA at this point: first, there's the self-perpetuating fact that "everyone is on FA."



I understand this and that's exactly why I stated this...*"I know people don't like to inconvenience of moving all their stuff to another site or rebuilding a fan base elsewhere."*...in the same post. Unfortunately it's got to start somewhere. There will never be other sites with a healthy user population if others are too afraid to try. That's part of the power they sadly have over the userbase right now.



Bobskunk said:


> If competently coded and non-hangupy alternatives (hi  floof/artplz/potentially sofurry's overhaul) end up coming to pass and  people finally have a different place to go that isn't fucking ugly or  doesn't offer similar features to FA or doesn't have a serious stigma,  then you'll see another round of emigration.



Yet people complain so heatedly about the horrendous look of FA. Sites like InkBunny may not be completely ideal as far as look and setup, but frankly neither is FA. So at this point it's sheer resistance, and legitimately so, to start over elsewhere.



Bobskunk said:


> And about "dropping our entitlement BS," I have only one thing to ask.   Why does FA exist?  There has to be some goal to it all, otherwise  thousands and thousands of dollars from Dragoneer's own pocket wouldn't  be keeping it running.  It's not for business since it's perpetually in  the red, it's not a democracy, it's not a charity... so what is its  purpose?  Who is it for?



You seemed to have interpreted this statement in a negative manner. I did not mean that as if the userbase does not have the right to their entitlement. I refer to it as BS in the sense that in the years that this site has existed, it's gotten us nowhere. In that sense it's BS. We're beating our heads against a brick wall that isn't going to give.

If FA got it's userbase by sheer "we're the first" then that's even more reason leaving might cause real change. Yeah, it might mean putting up with a site we don't like for a little while. Or it may also mean FA dies and something worth our time finally appears. Either way staying is fixing nothing. Complaints of needed change are ignored. At this stage we're all doing the whole "I don't wanna go to X site because of the lack of userbase" but as we all start making the move, that won't be an issue now will it? It has to start somewhere.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 3, 2011)

Yeah, the "use another site" argument is off topic. 

The issue is Pi, is what Neer was saying was that there were two levels of security for password. Ie 2 different password systems. It's not that it needs an audit (because of this issue). We need to start either suspending or removing admins that have shown a lack of competence towards security. It's nothing personal but sometimes people just don't get it, and rather at the cost of the site...you just should remove the admins not listening or not paying attention if they're seasoned admins (at least been around long enough to know better.) that should know better after the last security procedure to simply just mess with admin accounts when they shouldn't be touched. If they're forgetful of their password or so forth it's less to do with who you talk with on AIM, but rather who he/she has to answer to.

In this case the Admin shouldn't be messing with admin profiles, but rather have deferred the admin in question to yak, so he/she can answer why "I forgot my email/password". In other words that person should have been accountable for being forgetful, not "Sure no problem, let me change that email address we're not supposed to touch to new one".


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 3, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Yeah, the "use another site" argument is off topic.



I apologize for being off topic. I also apologize  for your misinterpretation of something positive for both sides. This wasn't a "leave the site" argument. This was a "it is what it is and pitchforks and torches directed to staff isn't going to fix it" discussion. This was for a little more peace and understanding on both sides, especially of that fact that at this stage, whether justified or not, going nuts on staff isn't going to ensure changes and will only annoy and destroy what little motivation is left. And that if it bothers users that much either deal with it or get out, because negative attitudes aren't going to fix it.

Apparently staff prefers drama and users breathing down their neck about everything little thing. :/


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 3, 2011)

I really didn't see much of "going nuts on staff" to be honest. Remember I am part of staff. While it can become tiresome to go back and forth, I haven't seen any criticism that was really out of line towards staff or those involved with causing this mess in the first place on this thread. Certainly the little quips were easily resolved and both sides can see where it could have quickly degraded into nothing but name calling. 

Really, I can't take this stuff too personally and I know it is easy to, but people need to develop a bit of a thicker skin. I just look to see what is valid criticism.


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 3, 2011)

Not just about this issue, but issues in general lately. Sorry, should have made that more clear. Everyone is so quick to get silly over things, spread rumors and so forth because of rage and it holds the potential to be counterproductive no matter what particular topic is being battled out at that time.

I just hope the rest of staff holds the same mentality as you regarding criticism. As I stated,whether or not staff did something wrong, trying to get things done with a lynch mob on your ass can be understandably difficult. I worry at this juncture all complaints are doing is wearing staff down in a bad way and nothing will ever get done. I, like most, want this site to stick around.


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## Ricky (Mar 3, 2011)

No matter how solid your code is, you can never remove the human stupidity factor :roll:


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 3, 2011)

Plague Wolfen said:


> I just hope the rest of staff holds the same mentality as you regarding criticism. As I stated,whether or not staff did something wrong, trying to get things done with a lynch mob on your ass can be understandably difficult. I worry at this juncture all complaints are doing is wearing staff down in a bad way and nothing will ever get done. I, like most, want this site to stick around.



It doesn't help when staff is the last to know on certain matters what happened, which is why Trp made the quip in the first place. I understand her frustration. 

It is correct to assume it does wear down staff when you got the lynch mob in town but it also doesn't help when so many are kept in the dark. Then when we voice our opinions because staff is frustrated, they are kept more in the dark.  It's one thing to deal with the public here, but getting it from both ends is ridiculous.


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## Plague Wolfen (Mar 3, 2011)

You know what really concerns me, and please this is not an insult to anyone, just an honest observation: Not only how staff are misinformed (which in itself sucks because it puts staff in the hot seat with members), but how scared or uncomfortable staff are to share things when they actually do have some information. Which I can't blame them because right now a lot of the times no matter what info you give there are fists waving in protest for more. This may also be due to demands of higher-ups pressuring staff to keep mouths closed too. Or as you said, you can't tell what you don't know but you're still getting marched in front of the firing squad for answers that just aren't there to give.

In a entirely non-snide way I don't envy your position and the things staff have had to put up with at all. I feel the same for the users too. However you, other staff and members who have managed to maintain some rational thinking through the process, I envy your patience in ways you can't imagine.


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## Armaetus (Mar 4, 2011)

Ugh, seriously? What is wrong with this site? How many times must shit hit the fan before things are _ACTUALLY_ fixed? This is the kind of stuff that will send me into a nice anti-FA rant because of the lack of caring to plug in holes and other security lapses on this site.

I actually think people should withhold donations until Dragoneer starts taking security seriously, where's that diamond tipped whip of his to get Yak's ass in gear to fix this shit right now?

Stay classy FA.


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## dinosaurdammit (Mar 4, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Ugh, seriously? What is wrong with this site? How many times must shit hit the fan before things are _ACTUALLY_ fixed? This is the kind of stuff that will send me into a nice anti-FA rant because of the lack of caring to plug in holes and other security lapses on this site.
> 
> I actually think people should withhold donations until Dragoneer starts taking security seriously, where's that diamond tipped whip of his to get Yak's ass in gear to fix this shit right now?
> 
> Stay classy FA.


 
I don't think you can really avoid DDoS attacks as easy. Unless a system like capsha or whatever its called is implemented to stop reloading too fast or rapid downloads this will keep happening.


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I don't think you can really avoid DDoS attacks as easy. Unless a system like capsha or whatever its called is implemented to stop reloading too fast or rapid downloads this will keep happening.


 
In theory, people would probably feel less inspired to DDoS FA all the time if so many mistakes weren't made in other areas.


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## LizardKing (Mar 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I don't think you can really avoid DDoS attacks as easy. Unless a system like capsha or whatever its called is implemented to stop reloading too fast or rapid downloads this will keep happening.


 
I do believe this thread is unrelated to the DDoS attacks, and also those measures wouldn't help anyway as mentioned in the other thread.


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## dinosaurdammit (Mar 4, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> I do believe this thread is unrelated to the DDoS attacks, and also those measures wouldn't help anyway as mentioned in the other thread.


 
I assumed glace was pissed about fa going down and assumed he assumed that it was hacked again.


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## Bobskunk (Mar 4, 2011)

Ben said:


> In theory, people would probably feel less inspired to DDoS FA all the time if so many mistakes weren't made in other areas.


 
Yeah, that actually makes sense.  Nobody really cares about furries these days- in fact, people really stopped caring around 2007.  The new thing is embarrassing sites for hubris and poor security.  If FA is being attacked for a reason, that's probably the primary reason, with "lol furries" as the secondary.  If FA gets its security act together (instead of dismissing/fearing/banning people who WOULD help because of tone arguments) then I'm _pretty sure_ there would be fewer attacks.  These DDoS attacks?  They're probably a combination of embarrassment, ease/opportunity and keeping the userbase from actually accessing FA, in that order.

Stop making FA an easy/appealing target to people with a lot of knowledge and/or access to a botnet and enough spare time to attack FA.  I still can't help but shake my head as one of the first announcements after the December attacks was basically "Don't worry!  FA is secure!"  That statement, in context with what had just happened and how it had been handled overall, is little more than an invitation to pull FA's pants down again.  So is "WE ARE NOT SCARED OF YOU, HACKERS!@!! WE'LL DOS U BACK!!!" talk- it's empty and encourages more humiliation.  You'd be better off (figuratively) buying a belt or suspenders than posturing like that.

How is this not obvious?


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## Armaetus (Mar 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I don't think you can really avoid DDoS attacks as easy. Unless a system like capsha or whatever its called is implemented to stop reloading too fast or rapid downloads this will keep happening.


 
I'm talking about the suspected security lapse, not the DDoS..if that is true..

Not pissed about it down this morning either.


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## yak (Mar 4, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Ugh, seriously? What is wrong with this site? How many times must shit hit the fan before things are _ACTUALLY_ fixed? This is the kind of stuff that will send me into a nice anti-FA rant because of the lack of caring to plug in holes and other security lapses on this site.
> 
> I actually think people should withhold donations until Dragoneer starts taking security seriously, where's that diamond tipped whip of his to get Yak's ass in gear to fix this shit right now?
> 
> Stay classy FA.


I can give you a rough summary.

* Site is driven by volunteer effort meaning limited amount of time to get things fixed, usually in off-work hours. Yes, the time you spend playing games and having a social life.
* Site gets attacked often, most attacks you don't even know of. 
* Large amounts of time are spent completely out of schedule to fix the problems and do cleanup. Most of the time at the expense of one's job or plans.
* Lots of time is spent making up for the issues caused by the interruption of schedule. Meaning less time to fix FA according to plan.
* Not before long another attack takes place and the cycle repeats itself.
* The issues we're dealing with now are of the architectural nature. Not something you "fix" easily.

I am generally appalled at your attitude.
You're a person with an inflated sense of entitlement that repeats things other people have said regardless of their factuality. You don't really know much about the things you're complaining about . You're feeling perfectly comfortable with insulting the competence and the decisions of the staff despite the fact that you had zero positive contribution of your own even in the rare cases where your limited knowledge would have allowed you to. You don't even care to update yourself on the current situation operating on half a year old information; FA hasn't been accepting donations in forever is one example of that. You are an annoying, shallow freeloader leeching off the generally welcoming predisposition of the staff towards it's users.
What are you here for? You do little else but complain. 

Criticizing us is fine, but you're being a real dick about it. Not just you honestly, many others are. Don't wear out your welcome.


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## Xenke (Mar 4, 2011)

yak, that was the worse post I've seen a staff member make to another user in a _long_ time.

EDIT: To clarify, if his attitude is _really_ bothering you, at least use some tact when confronting him about it.


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## Grimwald (Mar 4, 2011)

Xenke said:


> yak, that was the worse post I've seen a staff member make to another user in a _long_ time.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, if his attitude is _really_ bothering you, at least use some tact when confronting him about it.


 
Why?

The staff are volunteers who make no finance out of this themselves, except for perhaps promoting themselves (maybe), they take time out of their personal life when we don't, they are in the unenviable position of being a highly-targettable site with a volunteer/amatuer staff and for the most part all they receive for their efforts is unthankful scathing critism.

So a member of "staff" spoke down to someone, if you expect corporate-bullshit style "I am sorry for you inconvinience but..." then perhaps we should all club together and put them on payroll?


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## yak (Mar 4, 2011)

My face is tired of Wallmart-esque non stop 24/7 shit eating grin.


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## Grimfang (Mar 4, 2011)

Xenke said:


> yak, that was the worse post I've seen a staff member make to another user in a _long_ time.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, if his attitude is _really_ bothering you, at least use some tact when confronting him about it.


 
To be fair, it is Glaice.
If I ever see word of him anywhere, it's bitching out the staff in some overly critical way while actually not being too well informed.
Criticism's great, but some people are obsessed.


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## dinosaurdammit (Mar 4, 2011)

Grimwald said:


> Why?
> 
> The staff are volunteers who make no finance out of this themselves, except for perhaps promoting themselves (maybe), they take time out of their personal life when we don't, they are in the unenviable position of being a highly-targettable site with a volunteer/amatuer staff and for the most part all they receive for their efforts is unthankful scathing critism.
> 
> So a member of "staff" spoke down to someone, if you expect corporate-bullshit style "I am sorry for you inconvinience but..." then perhaps we should all club together and put them on payroll?


 
Considering the circumstances no matter volunteer work or not, an admin shouldn't speak so harshly. Just because they are an admin does not make them immune to being courteous. If anything admins and mods should hold themselves in a higher bracket and no matter how irritated they may be- restrain it and hold their composure.


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## Xenke (Mar 4, 2011)

Grimwald said:


> Why?
> 
> The staff are volunteers who make no finance out of this themselves, except for perhaps promoting themselves (maybe), they take time out of their personal life when we don't, they are in the unenviable position of being a highly-targettable site with a volunteer/amatuer staff and for the most part all they receive for their efforts is unthankful scathing critism.
> 
> So a member of "staff" spoke down to someone, if you expect corporate-bullshit style "I am sorry for you inconvinience but..." then perhaps we should all club together and put them on payroll?


 
I'm not even talking about professionalism, I'm talking about common sense.

Glaice is, at least from what I can see here, irritated and a bit confrontational. It's pretty apparent. How do you think the best way to try and approach someone in a way that they'll actually take something meaningful away from is said? Do you think the best way is to get pissed off at them and demean them in a public forum? No, probably not, they'll probably ignore everything you say.

Ideally with someone like that, you want to just a little bit of tact to tell them that they need to do more research and straighten there attitude in a way where you don't come off as dick.

Honestly, the first half of his post would have sufficed plenty. The second part was not only unnecessary, but takes away from the first half of his post where he was actually giving a tidbit of insight.

tl;dr- He could have handled this far better if he cut out all the snark. 



yak said:


> My face is tired of Wallmart-esque non stop 24/7 shit eating grin.



Are you even trying to make yourself more presentable?



Grimfang said:


> To be fair, it is Glaice.
> If I ever see word of him anywhere, it's bitching out the staff in some overly critical way while actually not being too well informed.
> Criticism's great, but some people are obsessed.


 
Even so, yak's having a hissy fit.


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## Grimwald (Mar 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Considering the circumstances no matter volunteer work or not, an admin shouldn't speak so harshly. Just because they are an admin does not make them immune to being courteous. If anything admins and mods should hold themselves in a higher bracket and no matter how irritated they may be- restrain it and hold their composure.



I disagree with you in parts. An admin should remain courteous as long as their clientelle being courteous. In the work place if someone stood in the middle of the office, shop, whatever and started to shout "This place is shit, why are people even here." They would be removed by security.

On the internet, people who would stare and shake their heads ( or saunter awkwardly by the mad man ) at people who do precisely that will now go onto a forum, anonymously and shout, "This place is shit, why are people even here" and expect inpunity or complain of "Admin Heavy handedness." when a negative effect from their actions happen.

The fact is the admins here do not receive benefit, they do not sponsor a charitable cause they could be harmed by them actually speaking their mind, the only beneficiaries in this are us. 

They are giving, we are taking.

We arn't paying them, they are not receiving any form of compensation for doing this. So I do not feel that they need to behave any more respectfully than they are given.

In fact bigger sites who actually make you pay ( somethingawful.com for example ) will ban you quite happily and call you a cock.


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## Grimfang (Mar 4, 2011)

Xenke said:


> Even so, yak's having a hissy fit.


 
The dude is totally obsessed with riding the staff. He has been overdoing it for a long time.
After a while, you don't really just "be nice" to users like him. There's volunteer-work professionalism, and then there's being a bitch.
For the sake of not further derailing, I'll just say to go look at the guy's profile.
When you carry yourself a certain way, you're eventually just counterproductive towards staff's morale and willingness to work.

</discussing Glaice>


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## Armaetus (Mar 4, 2011)

@Yak: Yes I'm being a bit of a dick and confrontational because sometimes that is the only way to get a response from you FA techs. People do try and be helpful and suggestive and it is either 1) ignored or 2) swept aside like many of the others who have actually have offered to help with the coding. Having this xenophobia will not get the site better if you do not have more than just yourself, tsawolf and net-cat doing things your way.

It is a bit of my nature to complain on things that haven't changed in forever, especially when some of the problems have been around for years or took way too long to deal with (commission tab anyone? Search that took forever back online?). If you don't have a lot of time to deal with things, either 1) get more volunteers to help or 2) hire a coder to close all of the holes in the current code.

And please don't tell me to go to another site, I already have a presence on the two other major and one minor furry art sites which are mirrors to my commissioned work.

Any yes, my previous post could have been less harsher but not to the point that is plain out flaming. I like to be critical when I can, I want this site to be better and not rusting away codewise. I also tend to not like being brushed away even it will make the site better in any way without (a) valid reason(s).


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## Grimwald (Mar 4, 2011)

Glaice said:


> It is a bit of my nature to complain on things that haven't changed in forever, especially when some of the problems have been around for years or took way too long to deal with (commission tab anyone? Search that took forever back online?). If you don't have a lot of time to deal with things, either 1) get more volunteers to help or 2) hire a coder to close all of the holes in the current code..



This I can agree with to an extent, the commissions tab has been down as long as I have been on FA and I would love to see it back, its annoying to say the least to have to wade through pages of journals to see if an artist I like is open. 

However "getting" more people is much more difficult than you make it sound ( I am sure you know this ) regrettably people with the required skill set don't appear in abundance on the internet and far fewer will say "Yeah sure, I will do this for free." If that was the case then I would hazard a guess that FA would have had a much more robust competator than InkBunny. Also the concept of just "hiring a coder" If we want to hire them a coder then lets all club together and put it in a fund and hire the coder of the staffs' liking? 

Anyone willing to contribute a meaningful amount?


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 4, 2011)

1. I'm more interested in knowing if the list Eevee turned over is being addressed. If so, will there be a list so that staff knows what is in the works and eta on how long those fixes are so we at least know what we're talking about when stuff happens?

2. I'm also interested in knowing why in several years another coder hasn't been brought on and the people who aren't the usual suspects (like the ones staff frequently conflicts with) are ignored when help is offered.  What is the problem? Are they all so unqualified or what? Just because it may be more difficult doesn't equate to impossible. There is also no excuse for ignoring people when you can tell him/her not interested or at least give a valid reason why he/she is not fit.

Grimwald, actually you need to look at the TED talks about what motivates people.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189284

If it were about money, Wikipedia wouldn't have so many contributions. There is an actual natural tendency for people to help. They help a lot for free.


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## Bobskunk (Mar 4, 2011)

yak said:


> My face is tired of Wallmart-esque non stop 24/7 shit eating grin.



If you can't wear that Walmart-esque non stop 24/7 shit eating grin when addressing the userbase, why should the userbase listen to you?  Maybe if you can improve your tone a little bit, you'll have better luck getting through to the userbase.  After all, this is the same advice given to the likes of Pi, Eevee, nrr, Verix, and anyone else who has attempted to help.

The irony is staggering.


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## Eevee (Mar 4, 2011)

yak said:


> * Site gets attacked often, most attacks you don't even know of.
> * Large amounts of time are spent completely out of schedule to fix the problems and do cleanup. Most of the time at the expense of one's job or plans.
> * Lots of time is spent making up for the issues caused by the interruption of schedule. Meaning less time to fix FA according to plan.
> 
> ...repeats things other people have said regardless of their factuality. You don't really know much about the things you're complaining about.


You've criticized others, as well, for speaking without knowing the "whole story".  Where should interested parties turn to stay better informed?
What are these problems, cleanups, and interruptions that consume so much time?



yak said:


> * The issues we're dealing with now are of the architectural nature. Not something you "fix" easily.


Are you referring to networking, hardware, or software?
If networking: I thought FA was very happy with its extra router, materially better than the one that comes with the rack?
If hardware: FA still has three unused servers and one broken server.  Putting these to use shouldn't be too difficult.
If software: I don't know the current state of the main controller code or which "issues" you have in mind, but based on just the leaked system files, there are plenty of things you could improve in finite time.



yak said:


> You're feeling perfectly comfortable with insulting the competence and the decisions of the staff despite the fact that you had zero positive contribution of your own even in the rare cases where your limited knowledge would have allowed you to.


What is the process for making positive but non-financial contribution?



yak said:


> You don't even care to update yourself on the current situation operating on half a year old information; FA hasn't been accepting donations in forever is one example of that.


Does this sentiment also apply to SilverAutomatic, whose information is similarly outdated?


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## Taralack (Mar 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> 2. I'm also interested in knowing why in several years another coder hasn't been brought on and the people who aren't the usual suspects (like the ones staff frequently conflicts with) are ignored when help is offered.  What is the problem? Are they all so unqualified or what? Just because it may be more difficult doesn't equate to impossible. There is also no excuse for ignoring people when you can tell him/her not interested or at least give a valid reason why he/she is not fit.


^ this

It's one thing to say "oh we do this in our free time" and another to complain about it when you're the only one doing the work and there's help from others being offered and you don't take it. I know "the usual suspects" in this case have clashed heads with you and 'Neer on multiple occasions but they can actually help the site be better. And some of them do offer to help for free. Why on earth won't you accept outside help?


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## Volkodav (Mar 4, 2011)

Im sorry but im sick and tired of not being able to look at scat inflation porn. Admins, get the site up RIGHT NOW or face my wrath of f5ing and allcaps.
Right now i am extreme serious!


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 4, 2011)

My problem isn't that we rejected help from Pi, Eevee etc.. I'm hearing from multiple people who have offered help who have no real association with these guys who are ignored. That troubles me. If it was that person wasn't qualified, I understand but the period of time this has been going on raises a flag for me.


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## CR-V (Mar 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> My problem isn't that we rejected help from Pi, Eevee etc.. I'm hearing from multiple people who have offered help who have no real association with these guys who are ignored. That troubles me. If it was that person wasn't qualified, I understand but the period of time this has been going on raises a flag for me.



My two cents? Higher-ups are afraid that by hiring more people, they are admitting to the fandom that they were wrong for not listening to them before. But looks like ego can't let that happen now can it?
Yak, Neer, seriously guys. Get help. It's more important than PR and appearance. Hell, see it this way-if you help the site, people will feel safer and actually praise you.


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## Taralack (Mar 4, 2011)

CR-V said:


> Hell, see it this way-if you help the site, people will feel safer and actually praise you.


 
But they already do!


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## Manacat (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm just delurking again for a moment to say THANK YOU.

Someone needs to be grateful in the sea of whining.  I don't have any entitlement issues about this site like some people do. Thank you very much for maintaining it. Don't let a minority of people stomping their feet and demanding first class service put you off.

Would I have responded rudely despite the outright spoiled rotten attitude yak was dealing with? No I wouldn't have, but I think the outburst was quite understandable when dealing with such immaturity.

Good luck fighting off this DDoS attack. Some of us DO appreciate the work people put into this site.



> My two cents? Higher-ups are afraid that by hiring more people, they are admitting to the fandom that they were wrong for not listening to them before. But looks like ego can't let that happen now can it?


If my experience in MMORPGs is any indication skilled people (or maybe people in general) tend to come with a host of ego issues.  Listening to someone's suggestions sometimes and telling them no to other suggestions often results in a "You never listen to me!!!!!1111111" temper tantrum. When someone is paid it's probably easier to avoid or deal with, but when they work for free many people expect power or constant ego stroking. I'm not saying no one qualified has offered to help since I can't know that, but people (has nothing to do with just furries) are crazy whiny petty creatures. The last thing you need is to introduce instability in a skilled volunteer that throws temper tantrums every time they don't get their way, for example. "You never listen to me/us!!!!!!!!" tends to be a telltale sign of this. The "never" is almost always an exaggeration and in reality usually means "sometimes."


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 4, 2011)

You need to go back 2 posts up about the TED talks. You need to understand people's motivations. 

You also need to know there is such thing as a Programmer Lead. It is his/her job to take people and assemble them to code and provide direction. You can also have a Project manager, that person sets the goal and outlines what needs to be done and provide specs. 

Trying to make an argument about it being ego is not a valid approach, if that were the case, I wouldn't have moderators that work under me. Nor would we have site administrators that answered to Neer because the same ego problem would apply to anyone.

The criticism isn't about the DDoS, the criticism is about the HACK. I wish people would quit mixing the two.


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