# Does NSFW art really overshadow SFW art?



## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 20, 2018)

Being a starving artist really sucks. For about six years, I've tried many different ways to get myself and my art noticed on the internet with my art. No luck. I thought that since I've been drawing a bunch of art featuring furry characters, I thought joining FurAffinity could help me build an audience, even if it's a tiny portion.

I am primarily a SFW artist since I'm not very comfortable showing off provocative content all that often. About a couple of years ago, I thought about drawing something NSFW since I felt like being adventurous and stepping out of my comfort zone. When I uploaded an NSFW drawing was uploaded on FurAffinity, I noticed something that I never expected: it gained a fair amount of attention compared to all of my other works. I'm a recent user of the site and I haven't uploaded many things so I usually get only one or two faves per drawing I create. That's not the case with my NSFW artwork I uploaded, as it received about 13 favorites and 4 comments.

So I've been thinking... is it really true that NSFW art overshadows SFW art?
I really want people to notice my artworks, but it seems that the SFW arts don't get that much attention. I don't want to draw NSFW art all that often, but I feel like I have to if I wish for my art to get noticed. If an artwork is not NSFW, it won't be popular, at least that's what one of the comments I got told me.

For those that are wondering, the NSFW drawing I made is no longer in my gallery.

*Anyone that's curious about my art, the websites where I provide my art are in the links below.*


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## Fallowfox (Jul 20, 2018)

My honest answer is that I don't know. If you don't want to draw pornographic art though, don't let people make you do that. 

I can report anecdotally that a standard piece of art I make might get 7 favourites, while a pornographic piece might get 70. 
Then again, the piece I made which has the most favourites isn't pornographic. 

I suppose the best advice I can offer is to make sure you create galleries that appeal to people outside of the furry community, where this (hopefully) isn't a question that you have to ask.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Jul 20, 2018)

Try posting SFW art in SFW websites.  If you have an issue with NSFW overshadowing SFW, then don't give those websites traffic.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 20, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Try posting SFW art in SFW websites.  If you have an issue with NSFW overshadowing SFW, then don't give those websites traffic.



That's what I've been doing. I've always been uploading my art on sites such as DeviantArt, Twitter, and Instagram.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 20, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> My honest answer is that I don't know. If you don't want to draw pornographic art though, don't let people make you do that.
> 
> I can report anecdotally that a standard piece of art I make might get 7 favourites, while a pornographic piece might get 70.
> Then again, the piece I made which has the most favourites isn't pornographic.
> ...



Yeah, I've made a variety of art featuring characters. I know it's not impossible to get your SFW art recognized, but it's more difficult than getting your NSFW recognized.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jul 20, 2018)

By the numbers there is a lot more SFW art than NSFW art. That means you have more competition to get recognized, so it is probably easier to get recognized making NSFW content. People also tend to binge NSFW content, so they consume more of it in a given sitting. Finally, NSFW usually comes with a premium price tag for commissions, so you can usually make more money doing NSFW art.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 20, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> By the numbers there is a lot more SFW art than NSFW art. That means you have more competition to get recognized, so it is probably easier to get recognized making NSFW content. People also tend to binge NSFW content, so they consume more of it in a given sitting. Finally, NSFW usually comes with a premium price tag for commissions, so you can usually make more money doing NSFW art.



Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing: I want to be a SFW artist primarily, but I feel like I have to start drawing NSFW if I want to get my art noticed easily.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jul 20, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing: I want to be a SFW artist primarily, but I feel like I have to start drawing NSFW if I want to get my art noticed easily.


A. It will be easier to get noticed once you have more art. Having a larger gallery greatly improves your chances of getting noticed. 
B. I had to add this to favorites: 



Spoiler


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## MissNook (Jul 21, 2018)

Don't do things you don't want to do.
Drawing NSFW will not make you popular, especially if you do it with the feeling you're forced to do it. It may allow you to bring a new audience interested in NSFW things, that's all there is. But this audience can be disappointed of your other SFW art, or may don't give it a look, so if what you really want is doing SFW art, it will be really frustrating for you.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 21, 2018)

MissNook said:


> Don't do things you don't want to do.
> Drawing NSFW will not make you popular, especially if you do it with the feeling you're forced to do it. It may allow you to bring a new audience interested in NSFW things, that's all there is. But this audience can be disappointed of your other SFW art, or may don't give it a look, so if what you really want is doing SFW art, it will be really frustrating for you.


That's the thing, NSFW art gets more attention than SFW art. I only draw NSFW art occasionally and all the NSFW art I made has more recognition than every other artwork I've created. It's frustrating.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 21, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A. It will be easier to get noticed once you have more art. Having a larger gallery greatly improves your chances of getting noticed.
> B. I had to add this to favorites:
> 
> 
> ...


Quantity doesn't really mean quality. All of my works need to have effort into them, otherwise I shouldn't upload anything at all.
And thank you for faving one of my drawings, I'm still pretty proud of that one.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jul 21, 2018)

Make no mistake I don't mean you should spam artwork in hopes of getting notice, but it will become easier to get noticed over time as your gallery grows, because the random chance of someone stumbling across it increases.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jul 21, 2018)

Yes, some of the most popular FA artists draw mainly NSFW. In fact the top 10 artists with most watchers draw primarily NSFW.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 21, 2018)

Rimna said:


> Yes, some of the most popular FA artists draw mainly NSFW. In fact the top 10 artists with most watchers draw primarily NSFW.


Well, that sucks. I would love to be known for drawing SFW but I guess it won't happen.


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## PrivateCompanyMan (Jul 22, 2018)

Sex sells and the furry fandom is built, fueled and funded by prons.
If you don't like drawing something than don't draw it, there are plenty of SFW artist on FA.
Just set your account to _*SFW Browsing*_ and take a look around, you'll find more technically proficient artists you'd usually miss in the yify pile.


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## Folhester (Jul 22, 2018)

Eh, from my short experience, I like my art NSFW but my SFW versions get much more attention, simply because it can potentially be seen by all FA users (seems like the SFW browsing is toggled on by more than one).
If you wanna get visibility, I think it's more useful to draw some fanarts/niche works (you're still comfortable with of course!) from time to time, so that you end up more often in specific searches.
For instance, I was once commissioned a transformation artpiece, and I still get favs on it like weekly! It's like 15x more seen and faved than my other works, got me some extra watchers... and the sfw version is more popular than the nsfw one 
Long story short, don't do nsfw just for the sake of it! There are other ways to gain visibility, that give you the opportunity to draw what you actually like.


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## PrivateCompanyMan (Jul 22, 2018)

Folhester said:


> Eh, from my short experience, I like my art NSFW but my SFW versions get much more attention, simply because it can potentially be seen by all FA users (seems like the SFW browsing is toggled on by more than one).
> If you wanna get visibility, I think it's more useful to draw some fanarts/niche works (you're still comfortable with of course!) from time to time, so that you end up more often in specific searches.
> For instance, I was once commissioned a transformation artpiece, and I still get favs on it like weekly! It's like 15x more seen and faved than my other works, got me some extra watchers... and the sfw version is more popular than the nsfw one
> Long story short, don't do nsfw just for the sake of it! There are other ways to gain visibility, that give you the opportunity to draw what you actually like.



Yeah fanart is huge, especially if you jump on it at the right moment.
I had a silly Ugandan Knuckles doodle get more favs than the rest of my gallery when VR Chat was big.


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## MissNook (Jul 22, 2018)

For SFW artist, building a universe can also be a really good way to gather and keep your audience. But fanart and especially trendy fanart are useful to gather new people. I think that if you can do those 2 things, you can build your community with more ease.


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## Kopatropa (Jul 22, 2018)

MissNook said:


> For SFW artist, building a universe can also be a really good way to gather and keep your audience. But fanart and especially trendy fanart are useful to gather new people. I think that if you can do those 2 things, you can build your community with more ease.


A universe? What does that mean?


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## MissNook (Jul 22, 2018)

Kopatropa said:


> A universe? What does that mean?


You create a world, with characters and stories. A comic can be an example but it can also be an OC which evolves and is set in several scenery (for example, you create a anthro dragon OC in our world, you draw him in his home playing video games, then on the way to his school, then in the class room with some friends and so on). The idea is to create something people will want to follow and see what comes next and also to have some original OCs people can draw as fanart if they wish.

It will also often help you to improve since you'll have to draw expressions, poses, backgrounds and so on.


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## Fiorabeast (Jul 23, 2018)

Sadly, yeah... NSFW art tends to get a LOT more attention because you know... Usually that type of thing is some kind of dirty secret no one wants to see, but people want to.
Though, thinking about it makes me wonder what kind of NSFW art draws those perverts out? I know that works involving women are ALWAYS abundant and common (but they tend to be more disturbing then men being in NSFW situations sadly, imo). Then I think anything gay porn is next on the list? Though the top popular ones is fanart+NSFW category because pretty much (almost) can recognize a popular character AND they want to see them get screwed as much as possible. (I was actually about to go this route even though I REALLY suck at drawing human fanart for some odd reason, when I discovered that I like drawing animals and furs more than humans). 

NSFW art isn't bad per say BUT there should be a limit on how much and far you want to go to THAT level for yourself and the target watchers you want. Because for example, I prefer artistic nude and some gay porn, but certain fetishes skeeves me that usually either I avoid it, or would refuse to draw it even if I was offered $1000USD for it. And I do want to be SFW more than NSFW but the latter allows me to practice anatomy and stuff (not to mention money, apparently if you are selling your stuff).

Honestly, if you don't like it, just don't do it unless you only just want to expand your horizons. Also, maybe write in your profile that you occasionally draw NSFW but are MAINLY SFW just to let people know what artist you are.
What @MissNook  said, I agree with. I think if you want to make it as a SFW artist, drawing comics and a visual story with your characters is probably the best to go at.


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## PercyD (Jul 23, 2018)

*Actually*, I would say it depends. 

The most viewed piece in my gallery is something that is slightly suggestive, but it's not exactly NSFW. 
This is the case for most of my pieces in my gallery. Maybe I'll have someone in garters and fishnets, but it's something fun- not exactly NSFW.

Perhaps focus on expanding what you will draw in general. Test different poses, different species, different costuming. Also try scenes with different characters, dramatic expressions. Novelty is what gets you noticed, not tits. (I'm so tired of looking at femboys bent over tables/other objects. So tired...)

Also try better ways of promoting your stuff. NSFW things on FA don't show up in preview/site data, SFW stuff does.


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## Kopatropa (Jul 23, 2018)

Back when I cared, I resorted to drawing NSFW to get attention. It hasn't worked out for me. However, as with @PercyD, anything suggestive of mine gets more attention.

If this isn't something you wanna do, then I would recommend posting on more sites if you can, faving multiple art from multiple artists (and reblogging/retweeting them), and just have fun while drawing. People are bound to care sooner or later.

As an added bonus, try varying what you draw. That'll heighten the chances.


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## drawain (Jul 23, 2018)

I rarely upload nsfw, and it doesn't get treated much differently than my sfw uploads. 
Since it's often even just sketches and very niché fanart porn it gets even much less attention than my sfw stuff effectively. 
And even a SFW version of a very polished refsheet got more views than it's NSFW version.

I have the most views on a *1 year* old *SFW* painting of someones character with *1025* views. (wat, holy shit) 
The second most views has a commissioned *NSFW* gay painting with *902* views. *But it is 6 years old. *

So nowadays my skill is getting me the attention. If I'd now go back to full illustrations of porn, I may get even *more* attention. But I wouldn't draw porn for that. 
Because it would force me to stay away from personal art and my personal artistic expression. That's not worth that attention. 
If you don't want to be a professional porn artist, don't cater to that audience, don't put yourself up for that target group. It would mean going the wrong direction for your goal. 
I prefer focusing on becoming an awesome artist and finding my personal voice. Then everything I attempt will look nice and make me happy. 
The most valuable are people that enjoy your artistic voice and style, they will stay. If you draw NSFW but you are an mediocre artist people may look, then shrug and forget you anyway, unless it's very niché. 

You've been trying for 6 years to get exposure. But have you focused as much on getting better at art? If you are a starving artist, I assume art is your only income. Then you need to aim for a professional level and grind skills. 
Study muscle anatomy, build a visual library by drawing a lot from life and photos(sounds super dry and shitty, but there are always things you like that you can study. Stills from you favorite movie, faces of musicians, photos of your fave animals, etc. I'm super specific and picky with what images I collect as reference and for copying for practice, but that also helps me understand where I want to go with my art.) 
Studying means copying photos/from life, but not mindlessly pixel for pixel, they can be SUPER ROUGH even. *Studies are about getting priciples in your head, not about copying perfectly. *Not at all.  

If you are only 19 like your profile says: means you were trying to get views and attention via art since you are 13, like I did too and every young artist. But I also started focusing on studies and practice when I was 19 and started to drop focusing on views. *When I improved this fixed itself. *


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## drawain (Jul 23, 2018)

Also, the fandom is a horrible trap of referencing each other into artistic incest. 
The coolest anthro artists I remember are those that choose to expand their horizon and have a visible influence of academic approaches or from other art genres.


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## PercyD (Jul 23, 2018)

Kopatropa said:


> Back when I cared, I resorted to drawing NSFW to get attention. It hasn't worked out for me. However, as with @PercyD, anything suggestive of mine gets more attention.
> 
> If this isn't something you wanna do, then I would recommend posting on more sites if you can, faving multiple art from multiple artists (and reblogging/retweeting them), and just have fun while drawing. People are bound to care sooner or later.
> 
> As an added bonus, try varying what you draw. That'll heighten the chances.


Hehe, yeno. Just show a little leg- ^.~

But yea, I agree! I also advertise my artwork. I want more people to see my ko-fi these days, so I advertise my gallery there to increase the chances of getting coffee. It does help to be active on FA. 
Leave comments, like people's artworks. Repost your things here on the forums with a thumbnail instead of the whole picture, so people will click through to see.


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## PercyD (Jul 23, 2018)

drawain said:


> Also, the fandom is a horrible trap of referencing each other into artistic incest.
> The coolest anthro artists I remember are those that choose to expand their horizon and have a visible influence of academic approaches or from other art genres.


That's interesting~.
So people who use different artistic techniques get more attention? I would agree with this. I don't think people recognize the academic approaches, but they do notice when something looks different.


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## PercyD (Jul 23, 2018)

drawain said:


> I rarely upload nsfw, and it doesn't get treated much differently than my sfw uploads.
> Since it's often even just sketches and very niché fanart porn it gets even much less attention than my sfw stuff effectively.
> And even a SFW version of a very polished refsheet got more views than it's NSFW version.
> 
> ...


I would say, from a non academic perspective, that working on your promotion skills also has some merit! 

*Always use tags/catergorize your artwork appropriately* so that people who are interested in bears (for example) will be able to find your work of a bear. 

*On sites like Instagram, I use tags that the "normies" would use for my work*. I bill myself as a "creature designer" and I use that tag to reach a wider audience. Sometimes I will also use the "anthro" tag to reach them as well. 

*If you draw fanart, be sure to include those tags.* I tagged some old pokemon fanart I reposted for throwback Thursday and I got a lot a few hits from it. 

Also, *I utilized some common social media events to get my stuff seen* like "throwback Thursday" since I have stuff from the 2000s that I was drawing that I still enjoy.

Learn how to thumbnail your art so that people are intrigued and want to click through to your work. For example:



When I sign my work (which, always sign your work), I try to cut it in tight to the character so it's hard to edit out.
I also try to put it in an interesting place so when I do my thumbnail it already has my signature on it. This is an interesting thumb that has gotten a lot of views on other sites.

For reference, here's the entire work:


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

PrivateCompanyMan said:


> Sex sells and the furry fandom is built, fueled and funded by prons.
> If you don't like drawing something than don't draw it, there are plenty of SFW artist on FA.
> Just set your account to _*SFW Browsing*_ and take a look around, you'll find more technically proficient artists you'd usually miss in the yify pile.


I didn't say that I don't like to draw NSFW. I simply prefer to draw more art that's SFW rather than NSFW, so my art can be viewed by anybody.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

Folhester said:


> Eh, from my short experience, I like my art NSFW but my SFW versions get much more attention, simply because it can potentially be seen by all FA users (seems like the SFW browsing is toggled on by more than one).
> If you wanna get visibility, I think it's more useful to draw some fanarts/niche works (you're still comfortable with of course!) from time to time, so that you end up more often in specific searches.
> For instance, I was once commissioned a transformation artpiece, and I still get favs on it like weekly! It's like 15x more seen and faved than my other works, got me some extra watchers... and the sfw version is more popular than the nsfw one
> Long story short, don't do nsfw just for the sake of it! There are other ways to gain visibility, that give you the opportunity to draw what you actually like.


Yeah, I've been wavering to do fanart for others and from fictional media for a bit. I know they get a lot of attention than original artworks, which is what I'm very used to drawing.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

MissNook said:


> For SFW artist, building a universe can also be a really good way to gather and keep your audience. But fanart and especially trendy fanart are useful to gather new people. I think that if you can do those 2 things, you can build your community with more ease.


I don't even where the heck to start. I'm not a very good writer and my OCs are kinda overly simple and just exist.
And I was wavering on drawing fanart for others and from fictional media, which proved to get more attention than my original works.
I don't draw fanart often since I'm very used to drawing original works with original characters.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

Fiorabeast said:


> Sadly, yeah... NSFW art tends to get a LOT more attention because you know... Usually that type of thing is some kind of dirty secret no one wants to see, but people want to.
> Though, thinking about it makes me wonder what kind of NSFW art draws those perverts out? I know that works involving women are ALWAYS abundant and common (but they tend to be more disturbing then men being in NSFW situations sadly, imo). Then I think anything gay porn is next on the list? Though the top popular ones is fanart+NSFW category because pretty much (almost) can recognize a popular character AND they want to see them get screwed as much as possible. (I was actually about to go this route even though I REALLY suck at drawing human fanart for some odd reason, when I discovered that I like drawing animals and furs more than humans).
> 
> NSFW art isn't bad per say BUT there should be a limit on how much and far you want to go to THAT level for yourself and the target watchers you want. Because for example, I prefer artistic nude and some gay porn, but certain fetishes skeeves me that usually either I avoid it, or would refuse to draw it even if I was offered $1000USD for it. And I do want to be SFW more than NSFW but the latter allows me to practice anatomy and stuff (not to mention money, apparently if you are selling your stuff).
> ...


I believe that's something that happens to all fandoms. I still wonder what was it that drove a portion of the furry fandom to be NSFW or something like that.

That is my intention for my artworks. As I said, I rarely draw NSFW and prefer a majority of my artworks to be SFW, so they can be viewed by anyone. Even if I do draw NSFW, I don't intend on drawing extreme NSFW. I prefer my NSFW art to be romantic and sweet rather than just to make it pornographic.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

PercyD said:


> *Actually*, I would say it depends.
> 
> The most viewed piece in my gallery is something that is slightly suggestive, but it's not exactly NSFW.
> This is the case for most of my pieces in my gallery. Maybe I'll have someone in garters and fishnets, but it's something fun- not exactly NSFW.
> ...


How can I promote my stuff in FurAffinity? There's really not much I can do to get my stuff out there. I know there's advertisements and all that but I can't afford them nor be able to pay online at the moment.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

Kopatropa said:


> Back when I cared, I resorted to drawing NSFW to get attention. It hasn't worked out for me. However, as with @PercyD, anything suggestive of mine gets more attention.
> 
> If this isn't something you wanna do, then I would recommend posting on more sites if you can, faving multiple art from multiple artists (and reblogging/retweeting them), and just have fun while drawing. People are bound to care sooner or later.
> 
> As an added bonus, try varying what you draw. That'll heighten the chances.


Yeah, that's what I have been doing with posting on multiple sites and liking/faving art and all that.
How can varying what I can increase my chances of getting noticed?


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jul 23, 2018)

drawain said:


> I rarely upload nsfw, and it doesn't get treated much differently than my sfw uploads.
> Since it's often even just sketches and very niché fanart porn it gets even much less attention than my sfw stuff effectively.
> And even a SFW version of a very polished refsheet got more views than it's NSFW version.
> 
> ...


I know skills are important when it comes to art. Have you seen my artwork in my gallery? I'm pretty happy with what I added and changed in my artwork, and I'm still looking for various ways to improve my art.

I have tons of references saved and I have been practicing. I didn't start practicing until a couple of years ago, when I ditched using a really old art program. I still would like my art to get views and to get commissioned, though.


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## Kopatropa (Jul 23, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Yeah, that's what I have been doing with posting on multiple sites and liking/faving art and all that.
> How can varying what I can increase my chances of getting noticed?


Drawing different subjects attracts different people. The more, the merrier, as they say.


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## MissNook (Jul 23, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> I don't even where the heck to start. I'm not a very good writer and my OCs are kinda overly simple and just exist.
> And I was wavering on drawing fanart for others and from fictional media, which proved to get more attention than my original works.
> I don't draw fanart often since I'm very used to drawing original works with original characters.


You may want to try to create scenery with several of your OCs, from there you can think of their relationship and just have them live in their world. You can use your life to find inspiration, for example by thinking of memorable days you really like or dislike, of strong feelings. You can use that to create milestones for your stories ^^


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## drawain (Jul 23, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> I know skills are important when it comes to art. Have you seen my artwork in my gallery? I'm pretty happy with what I added and changed in my artwork, and I'm still looking for various ways to improve my art.
> 
> I have tons of references saved and I have been practicing. I didn't start practicing until a couple of years ago, when I ditched using a really old art program. I still would like my art to get views and to get commissioned, though.



I did look at your gallery, why do you ask? It doesn't show studies so I went the safe route and suggested them. It's not exactly on point with the advice you seek, but it's correlating strongly with where you want to get. 
I was just trying to add another advice on top of the ones other's already made, didn't want to repeat their points. That's why I was focused on this, not to insult you. 
It's just a common phenomen in the fandom, that people don't care to practice effectively. Or don't know how. Like it took me a while to learn that it's better to split up things to practice, like values indepentently from color, gestures independently from anatomy, instead of drawing image after image, each too similar in subject to the last, facing these issues all at once, referencing only from drawings instead of life/photos and staying in my comfort zone too long... you said you are looking for various ways to improve your art, and that's what my advice was about. If I said things you already do or know, then that's awkward of me and I am sorry.


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## PercyD (Jul 24, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> How can I promote my stuff in FurAffinity? There's really not much I can do to get my stuff out there. I know there's advertisements and all that but I can't afford them nor be able to pay online at the moment.


Easy- interact with the community. Heres how you do it:

Leave comments on art you like. Be thoughtful. People will navigate through your comments to your page. Its a great way to attract like minded people
Favorite art. I tend to save creature references and designs I want to practice with later.
Interact with people who favorite and comment on your art. This contributes to the community and builds up relationships later
Do art trades with people who have more traffic then you. Always a sure fire way to get more views and build up a little community of people c:
Post links to your art elsewhere, here in the forums is a good start. Refer to my post about making thumbnails to increase impact


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## Judge Spear (Aug 2, 2018)

It 100% absolutely does and it takes some serious effort to change it. Maybe that means general improvement. Maybe that's shilling fanart of popular topics. Maybe it's memes. But if someone does both, and wants their SFW content to get noticed, it takes significantly more elbow grease than sex does.
I remember when I tested this actually.

I had finished a fully rendered painting of a household name character at a time when he had an extreme spike in relevance. It wasn't so detailed that you couldn't instantly get all of the visual information. It had tags, was in plain view, and was uploaded at peak hours (around 6-7 pm EST).

160 likes in a week.

Just before I posted it, as an experiment, I drew a really scrawled unfinished, low resolution pinup that took me no effort and took 25 minutes. It looked just barely "ok". No tags. No text. And I hid it under a "Keep Reading" with no hint as to what it was. I queued it to upload much later when most of my audience is generally offline.

600 likes in 2 hours.


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## MissNook (Aug 2, 2018)

From some stats I've taken from some of my NSFW stuff, and from others, I would say that it brings people but don't make them stay.
I mean, the things that have bring me people who are staying are requests, submitting often, joining challenges, doing fanart, talking with people and trying to improve (both for SFW and NSFW things). I'm not sure, but I'm under the impression that NSFW art is more consumable and disposable than SFW art.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 2, 2018)

I guess I'm one of those awful people who view 90% NSFW furry art. Sorry guys. I can't be stopped. :c


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## RailRide (Aug 3, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> I believe that's something that happens to all fandoms. I still wonder what was it that drove a portion of the furry fandom to be NSFW or something like that.



One factor that rarely gets mentioned is that sites catering specifically to furry art tend to allow both SFW and NSFW work on the same service, whereas outside the fandom, art sites are either one or the other. Porn isn't allowed on DA*, and you won't generally find SFW on say, HentaiFoundry (assuming it's not disallowed entirely--I haven't checked their TOS)

---PCJ

* certain categories of fetish art/photography on DA sure_ look_ like porn, but somehow don't get deleted owing to vague/contradictory standards of what is considered 'artistic'


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## MissNook (Aug 3, 2018)

RailRide said:


> One factor that rarely gets mentioned is that sites catering specifically to furry art tend to allow both SFW and NSFW work on the same service, whereas outside the fandom, art sites are either one or the other. Porn isn't allowed on DA*, and you won't generally find SFW on say, HentaiFoundry (assuming it's not disallowed entirely--I haven't checked their TOS)
> 
> ---PCJ
> 
> * certain categories of fetish art/photography on DA sure_ look_ like porn, but somehow don't get deleted owing to vague/contradictory standards of what is considered 'artistic'


That's a good point. But I think that's because they are specialized in a niche already "furry" so specializing more would have been quite a loss of users.
(And HF allows SFW art, some of them even get features when they're really badass  )

And for DA, well I still don't understand their policy. I think their way of checking is based on denunciation, like tumblr, so if nobody says, you're good.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 4, 2018)

XoPachi said:


> It 100% absolutely does and it takes some serious effort to change it. Maybe that means general improvement. Maybe that's shilling fanart of popular topics. Maybe it's memes. But if someone does both, and wants their SFW content to get noticed, it takes significantly more elbow grease than sex does.
> I remember when I tested this actually.
> 
> I had finished a fully rendered painting of a household name character at a time when he had an extreme spike in relevance. It wasn't so detailed that you couldn't instantly get all of the visual information. It had tags, was in plain view, and was uploaded at peak hours (around 6-7 pm EST).
> ...


I just can't understand why WIPs or quick drawings get more attention than the finished artworks. I really cannot.

This is a primary reason why I don't upload WIPs.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 4, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> I guess I'm one of those awful people who view 90% NSFW furry art. Sorry guys. I can't be stopped. :c


I'm not saying that you shouldn't view NSFW art. I'm saying that SFW art should get as much attention as NSFW art, since you could make a detailed SFW piece only to have minimal attention, while you can just sketch your fursona naked showing off their bits and it gets a ton of attention.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 4, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> I'm not saying that you shouldn't view NSFW art. I'm saying that SFW art should get as much attention as NSFW art, since you could make a detailed SFW piece only to have minimal attention, while you can just sketch your fursona naked showing off their bits and it gets a ton of attention.



Oh for sure. If I spend a week painting a normal picture it will get 7 favs. If I draw something risqué it can get 70. 

If you want to have normal art appreciated you kinda have to go outside the furry community. Well...online art communities as a whole. They're very mired in pornographic content, or endless fanart of existing characters and shows.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 4, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Oh for sure. If I spend a week painting a normal picture it will get 7 favs. If I draw something risqué it can get 70.
> 
> If you want to have normal art appreciated you kinda have to go outside the furry community. Well...online art communities as a whole. They're very mired in pornographic content, or endless fanart of existing characters and shows.


But as a starving artist, I still need to get noticed online as I do not partake in artists' alleys and stuff like that.

I know fanart's a huge factor to get noticed easily, and I find anthropomorphic animal character very fun to draw.

Unfortunatey, due to a lack of an audience and struggling to get commissions to sell, it's impossible for me to go outside the art communities.


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## MissNook (Aug 5, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> But as a starving artist, I still need to get noticed online as I do not partake in artists' alleys and stuff like that.
> 
> I know fanart's a huge factor to get noticed easily, and I find anthropomorphic animal character very fun to draw.
> 
> Unfortunatey, due to a lack of an audience and struggling to get commissions to sell, it's impossible for me to go outside the art communities.


There are la lot of way to achieve this, but I think a lot of them involved both luck and effort. Some examples: choosing a niche but with people willing to pay for it (NSFW usually), submitting art often (I'll come back to that just after), create a universe people would want to stick with (that requires more diversity in skills), following trends, parody and fanart, searching unusual mediums, and a lot of other ways as well as a mix of things (and a lot we already mentioned in this topic or others).
It's also important to know where to submit things, but I don't really know how to manage that myself so I can't say what works the best. I'm sure other people already did articles on this (I think you'll have to see with marketing and community management to have informed opinions)

Just to go back to "submitting art often". I think at least 3 times a week is the minimum to get noticed and to improve. It doesn't mean you should drop the quality, it's more a step to reach. If you can only do 1 per week for the moment, okay, but try to improve and to be able to send 2 per week, then 3 per week. Being fast is a nice skill to gain.
(I'm also telling you this because your FA gallery isn't updated often enough in my opinion and that can be a short-term goal for you which would help both your visibility and improvement)

And at the end, it's up to you to decide where you're going, so don't hesitate to try things. However I would suggest that you write down what you want and don't want  to do, in order to not loose yourself in the process and to see your evolution of thoughts.


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## Judge Spear (Aug 5, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> I just can't understand why WIPs or quick drawings get more attention than the finished artworks. I really cannot.
> 
> This is a primary reason why I don't upload WIPs.



As a former ad design major who did ad work for 2 years, I can say it's a psychological thing. With how fast the relevant art outlets are and with how short the average attention span is, something instantly catching will get more viewership.

Look at how minimal things have gotten over the years such as modern logos. Its for similar reasons. It isn't even because people think the WIPs are better but rather more people will just naturally stop because the simple shapes instantly draw their eye. There's less detail to parse and therefore the visual information connects with the viewer faster. This goes for completed works that are also simple but appealing.

Appeal is different from quality which is why you see a lot of shit artists with tons of followers.

Art is psychology.


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## drawain (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm thinking maybe WIPs are also more popular for the same reason abstracted art, even if it's just a bit abstracted, is popular? It leaves a lot of room for the viewer to "see" their personal taste executed in all the gaps the sketch creates, they can fill in their image of how it would look best. And the potential is exciting, like a surprise box.
I don't post WIPs anymore, because of what you described, OP. :s Also to not tire the viewers of the image, to not take away the surprise of a new upload. And to not fall for my own trap of "I posted something, I got my reactions, thus I did something" so that I end up not finishing it in worst case.

EDIT: 
I collect my WIPs still and sometimes put them together as process GIFs to then share them together with the final image.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 5, 2018)

Fluffer said:


> It is said 75% of the internet is porn


Can't say I'm too surprised.


drawain said:


> I'm thinking maybe WIPs are also more popular for the same reason abstracted art, even if it's just a bit abstracted, is popular? It leaves a lot of room for the viewer to "see" their personal taste executed in all the gaps the sketch creates, they can fill in their image of how it would look best. And the potential is exciting, like a surprise box.
> I don't post WIPs anymore, because of what you described, OP. :s Also to not tire the viewers of the image, to not take away the surprise of a new upload. And to not fall for my own trap of "I posted something, I got my reactions, thus I did something" so that I end up not finishing it in worst case.
> 
> EDIT:
> I collect my WIPs still and sometimes put them together as process GIFs to then share them together with the final image.


Sounds like a good idea to put together all the process images into a single GIF. Do you know websites where I can do this?


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## drawain (Aug 6, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Can't say I'm too surprised.
> 
> Sounds like a good idea to put together all the process images into a single GIF. Do you know websites where I can do this?



I don't, sorry. I only used my art programs for this so far. Photoshop atm. But when I started digital art I used Gimp and I'm sure the newer art options like Krita can do that too.

I always create a second .psd file for the progress of a painting with smaller resolution. Where I insert the result state of each worksession. The results stack as layers, and each layer is set as frame. (PS has a toolbar for animation where I set this and can also alter the duration of each frame) Then I export as GIF. (In PS that's done via “export for web“, in case you use it too.)


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 9, 2018)

Honestly OP, I've been on FurAffinity since 2007 and was always a SFW artist though I did start drawing tame NSFW (nudity, not sex related) around 2016and the honest truth is that as far as FurAffinity goes, yes, NSFW does overshadow SFW there. It's like this...

- NSFW
- Fan ART
- SFW 

I mean the views don't lie. Look at the most popular artists on FurAffinity, I believe the number 1 popular artist there is Wolfy-Nail and he's primarily a NSFW artist followed by Zaush. I remember there was a site called "Popufur" that listed the ranks of popular artists on the site. I tried looking for it to post here but apparently the site no longer exists anymore but believe me, I remember checking it out around 2015 and all the top 50+ artists on that ranking site were NSFW artists, I don't recall seeing any strictly SFW artists on there at all.  And just doing a simple browsing on the main site looking at what's relevant through the search feature, it's mostly always NSFW art, doubly so if it's NSFW fan art of popular characters. The only time NSFW art doesn't get as many views is if the quality is beginner level but for the most part, intermediate to high quality NSFW will do very well as opposed to clean art.

I saw someone suggesting to try posting your art on SFW art sites and  I definitely agree with that. FurAffinity is not my main base of operation when it comes to art, that would be DeviantART. DeviantART may have a reputation but in the 14 years I've been on that site, it has been pretty decent and my SFW art does fairly better there than it does on FurAffinity or even Tumblr. Granted, DeviantART is not as booming as it once was pre-2013 because so many artists up and left moving to either Tumblr or Twitter and a good many of them became NSFW artists and also, Fan Art does a lot better on that DeviantART than original art unless you already have a sizeable following but it really is the lesser of two evils if you're not a NSFW artist. 

Now as far as commissions concerned, I'll share a bit of my experience as I started taking commissions around 2012 I believe. As a strictly SFW artist at the time, I was able to get some commissions. Not a lot but some. So I wouldn't say that you can't get commissions as a SFW artist but I noticed that the moment I loosened up and offered tasteful NSFW, I did get a bit more offers. The best bet for trying to get commissions is using DeviantART because they have a ton of groups you can submit your work at to help get you out there. 

But yeah back to the main point of discussion. The honest truth is that as far as FurAffinity is concerned, NSFW will always outshine SFW even if the SFW is high quality. It just doesn't compare to the NSFW market and if being noticed means a lot to you on FurAffinity, drawing more NSFW may be the only way to get noticed on that site. So my suggestion is that if you don't want to be a NSFW artist, try joining some other art sites that aren't NSFW (at least not NSFW focused) and be consistent uploading on them. It may take awhile but you'll get there. I hope this helps.


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## PimpNuttz (Aug 10, 2018)

Yes. 

Without a doubt NSFW gets more shine than SFW. Pin-Ups alone get a lot of attention and that alone speaks about how susceptible we as people are to our desires versus just being entertained.
I switched from SFW to NSFW mainly out of boredom, but also just to get paid. Nowadays I'm more interested with investing into the Sequential Art portion of porn, because most porn comics are just flat out trash.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 10, 2018)

Total-Lunar-Eclipse said:


> I've been told it's a ticket to popularity if you can do it well.


What do you mean by "doing it well", exactly?


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 10, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> Honestly OP, I've been on FurAffinity since 2007 and was always a SFW artist though I did start drawing tame NSFW (nudity, not sex related) around 2016and the honest truth is that as far as FurAffinity goes, yes, NSFW does overshadow SFW there. It's like this...
> 
> - NSFW
> - Fan ART
> ...


That's what I have been doing since I started my art career on the internet. I've uploaded my artworks through multiple sites such as DeviantArt, Twitter, and Instagram. I have also uploaded my commission prices and information on many commission groups on DeviantArt, as well, and I still hardly get any commissions.

I only have a FurAffinity account for uploading furry art, since I have drawn a variety of characters as well. I'm not saying those aren't helpful advices, but I have tried all of them and hardly any of them worked. Heck, I even put the links to the multiple sites I'm in on my signature.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 10, 2018)

PimpNuttz said:


> Yes.
> 
> Without a doubt NSFW gets more shine than SFW. Pin-Ups alone get a lot of attention and that alone speaks about how susceptible we as people are to our desires versus just being entertained.
> I switched from SFW to NSFW mainly out of boredom, but also just to get paid. Nowadays I'm more interested with investing into the Sequential Art portion of porn, because most porn comics are just flat out trash.


Well, that sucks. I would've loved to get my artworks noticed, but I guess it will never happen.


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## PimpNuttz (Aug 10, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Well, that sucks. I would've loved to get my artworks noticed, but I guess it will never happen.


No no, there's still a market for clean work; it just depends on who you're marketing to and the quality. Add to the fact that studios look at everything you're capable of versus just one subject or one style of art; you can still get hired without touching raunchy themes and in some cases it's probably in your best interest not to, what with the whole stigma still being a thing in 2018. 

What I mean is is that, yeah raunchy themed art and entertainment gets a lot of attention; sex sells and all. But that's not to takeaway from the work you constantly see wherever you go, whether it be a sketch, a broadway show, a movie or just a billboard, the artist(s) behind it had to put in a lot work outside of just 'creating'. They had to be their own PR person, their own boss and have a reliable network of people. I'd bet real money most of Wolfy-Nail's watch count doesn't consist of real supporting fans, let alone anyone in the Entertainment and Gaming industries. Just truckloads of folks looking to get their rocks off then move on to their next fap fix in their submission notices.

I know I do.


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 10, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> That's what I have been doing since I started my art career on the internet. I've uploaded my artworks through multiple sites such as DeviantArt, Twitter, and Instagram. I have also uploaded my commission prices and information on many commission groups on DeviantArt, as well, and I still hardly get any commissions.
> 
> I only have a FurAffinity account for uploading furry art, since I have drawn a variety of characters as well. I'm not saying those aren't helpful advices, but I have tried all of them and hardly any of them worked. Heck, I even put the links to the multiple sites I'm in on my signature.



I'm sorry, there's just not much else I can suggest other than to keep plugging away and eventually you'll get somewhere. I took a look at your gallery and don't take this the wrong way but you seem to still be in the bridge of beginner to slightly refined and I feel that might be the culprit. It's obviously you're trying to go for that toon style and well, if you keep practicing, you'll join the ranks of the standard toon artist and should see a possible interest in commissions for those seeking out a toon style. The only other suggestion I can suggest is try to draw a little more fan art. You don't have to draw a large amount of it, just like one or two every now and then to draw in some attention because unfortunately, original characters that are SFW take longer to get noticed, especially in todays art climate where DeviantART & FurAffinity are hard to get noticed in if not doing porn.

So yeah, I'm not saying to stop doing your OCs but just throw in some fan art every now and then to drum up some new blood. That usually works for me like for example, I'm into Ratchet & Clank and I do have a Lombax character but he doesn't really get noticed much. So when I do the occasional fan art of Ratchet, people who fave/comment on it and rummage through my gallery come across my character and fave/comment on him and possibly even non fan art. So it's to a point where I'm convinced that fan art can help get your gallery noticed. Hope this helps!




PimpNuttz said:


> I'd bet real money most of Wolfy-Nail's watch count doesn't consist of real supporting fans, let alone anyone in the Entertainment and Gaming industries. Just truckloads of folks looking to get their rocks off then move on to their next fap fix in their submission notices.
> 
> I know I do.



I think that's a good point. Most of the high subscribed/watched artists on FA are just average people who are looking to jerk off and since Wolfy-Nail and many others have been doing the NSFW stuff for years upon years, they kind of pigeon-holed themselves to the point where if they stopped doing adult work and tried cleaner or professional work (that isn't NSFW focused), they may lose a lot of their watchers. This is why when it comes to new artists who ask if porn is worth it, I always ask them where they want to go with their art and go from there.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 10, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> I'm sorry, there's just not much else I can suggest other than to keep plugging away and eventually you'll get somewhere. I took a look at your gallery and don't take this the wrong way but you seem to still be in the bridge of beginner to slightly refined and I feel that might be the culprit. It's obviously you're trying to go for that toon style and well, if you keep practicing, you'll join the ranks of the standard toon artist and should see a possible interest in commissions for those seeking out a toon style. The only other suggestion I can suggest is try to draw a little more fan art. You don't have to draw a large amount of it, just like one or two every now and then to draw in some attention because unfortunately, original characters that are SFW take longer to get noticed, especially in todays art climate where DeviantART & FurAffinity are hard to get noticed in if not doing porn.
> 
> So yeah, I'm not saying to stop doing your OCs but just throw in some fan art every now and then to drum up some new blood. That usually works for me like for example, I'm into Ratchet & Clank and I do have a Lombax character but he doesn't really get noticed much. So when I do the occasional fan art of Ratchet, people who fave/comment on it and rummage through my gallery come across my character and fave/comment on him and possibly even non fan art. So it's to a point where I'm convinced that fan art can help get your gallery noticed. Hope this helps!


Please do not say that my art is beginner skilled. I almost quit art because of a somewhat famous artist said that to me and hearing that again further increases my chances of giving up.


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 10, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Please do not say that my art is beginner skilled. I almost quit art because of a somewhat famous artist said that to me and hearing that again further increases my chances of giving up.



Oh please don't take it that way, I didn't mean to discourage you at all and I wasn't saying it was beginner level, I was saying it was bridging away from that. You have good use of coloring and colorful background rendering. All I mean is that you should just keep practicing and plugging. Advertise your stuff as well at least once or twice every week or two. Believe me, it's not easy getting commissions unless you have a huge fanbase so for those of us who don't have that luxury, we have to just keep trying as that's all we really can do.


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## drawain (Aug 12, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Please do not say that my art is beginner skilled. I almost quit art because of a somewhat famous artist said that to me and hearing that again further increases my chances of giving up.



Okay, this is gonna be preachy, but it's straight from my experience. You need to overcome this attitude.

I once wanted to do an internship at a game art studio. Jana Schirmer, an incredible artist, told me I was not good enough. They could not work with me.
I was like "Bitch, excuse me? I'm 17, I'm freshly aspiring, I'm not that bad for just having started to do studies!? I'm not wanting to be a workforce, I'm wanting an internship!?"
A reasonable answer, right? I was hurt deeply. Before I had not ever gotten criticism as harsh as that. The purpose of an internship and the demands you have on people who apply for them is a different topic now though.
But the way the criticism broke me down told a lot about me. Deep down I began to realise that I cannot change her view about my art. So I had to ask myself an important question, is her view on my art irrelevant or not?
It was not, she is a great artist, she knows what she talks about: so it was me who had to change. My attitude first and then with that change, I witnessed how my art changed. It bloomed. I challenged myself, I wanted to prove to myself and the world how good I could become. I felt like it was my right to have excuses - as human being - I was young, it was only about an internship, I did not have mentors who teached me, but I ALSO did not want to cry again, when someone gave me reasoned feedback. She reassured me she was not saying anything to hurt me. It is simply NORMAL in the art community to handle criticism as long as it is constructive. It is not personal. Her words were not actually harsh, people simply had minced matters my whole life, people were not honest. Because I was young I was simply not used to a professional neutral outlook.
When you looked at some art can you pretend to not see flaws? So why should you or me expect others to not see our flaws in our art? So I became eager to get tough. Like those kids in anime. xD

*This should not drag you down, it should PUSH you. Have trust in yourself. No one ever, and I mean it, stays beginner/intermediate artist when they keep going and practice. 
And if you want to become a professional that handles commissions you need to handle a realist view. And constructive criticism. 
No need ever to feel down about your art or yourself, no matter what level you are at, as long as you get real and embrace your flaws like a fun challenge. You will overcome them all this way. Some are more lucky in life and need less time, some need more time than you. Don't fixate on comparing yourself to others, compare yourself with who you were yesterday. *


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## PimpNuttz (Aug 12, 2018)

Yeah, basically what these guys said. ^^^

You'll want to lose that attitude sooner rather than later. 
Embrace the criticism you can get instead of none otherwise you won't develop, period.


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## Flumpor (Aug 12, 2018)

So, I can only give you a few of the experiences I had with the modding community. I know a few people who work on Enderal, one of the biggest Mod projects ever. There were a handful of people that already were Fulltime modders and a large sum of them did NSFW Mods for Skyrim/Oblivion, people are just more willing to fork over large amounts of money if you cater to their fetishes. Developping is expensive and if you don't do it for yourself and want to make some cash on the side, then thats where the money lies.
Another one of my friends draws and he used to only draw SFW (Still got an awesome Sagat from him). After things didn't go so well in University he wanted to make some extra cash, now he mostly draws NSFW comissions.

However if you want to just get noticed and aren't after money then do with your art what you should do with any piece of art. Publicity, Provocation, Personality.
Post your stuff on all major sites and target small followings directly, put it on twitter and send it to people with only 500-600 followers, one retweet goes a farther way then you thing.
Provocation is the most important thing in art. In a group of 100 people, if everyone says your Art is a 7/10... no one will fall in love with it and you are just in a void, in a group of 100 you get 50 2's and 3's and 50 8 and 9's then you start to succeed. You evoke strong reactions, some defend it and grow fonder of the artwork over time and some hate it and think it's bad and dismiss it, but they will light the fire so maybe another person who is a 9 will see it, and this cycle goes on. Night in the woods provokes with an artstyle I think is almost perfect and I am practicing drawing in that style right now because I am so in love with it, but others say they don't like it because it's to repetitive.
And lastly Personality if you as a creator have a strong catching personality, you are bound for success. 2 Gryphon, Uncle Kage, Telephone and for NSFW you got Shädmaan and Zone-Sama.


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## Fiorabeast (Aug 12, 2018)

I'm in agreement with what @Ratchetjak and @drawain said also.
As someone that has drawn for A LOT of years also, but just recently decided to kick my butt into gear after realizing that art is the only thing I'm good at and try to step up my own level in skills and stuff (while at my slow pace because mental and health issues have been giving me problems lately...), it's really all about drawing a lot and improving your own work, promoting yourself and making your art reflect YOU.
Because honestly, looking at your work OP, your art style and the way you draw is very cute, BUT like what @Ratchetjak was pointing out, it's actually unpolished and it's not quite there yet. Other things I noticed are your choice/lack of variety of colors in your works, as well as your characters' poses being static... Which is the possible reason there isn't much interest in people wanting to commission you because to them, it feels like you lack a LOT of experience despite the contrary on what you are telling us. Even there are artists who draw in a cute style like you, but when people look at them, they can tell that artist looks like they at LEAST have a lot of experience of drawing a lot of things under their belts and know what they specialize in.

Like, what do YOU specialize in? What do you enjoy drawing a lot mostly? Can you do other colors other than what is in you gallery? Are you even drawing a lot like rough sketches, life studies, and work in progresses (even if it's at your own pace)? Have you also tried doing Free Art in the Art Trade and Exchange thread to gauge on the people's level of interest in your art? What about sometimes going to the Hiring threads for people that want something in the Art Sales thread? Also, what kind of subjects do you like to do and draw? What art styles do you gravitate to that you can incorporate into your work to make people want to commission you? Can you do other things other than what your gallery is currently showing us (like, for example, can you draw your character looking at a statue and commenting how 'weird' it looks with a pigeon on its head or something?). Can you draw something that draws a reaction in people? What can you offer to these people that other artists can't replicate from you? Also, do you talk to people a lot and engage with them? 

Because that's the thing with art and artists: We specialize in something, focus on what we like art-wise, and when we concentrate on THAT and make ourselves get good at it (while making your art be eye-catching to people), then people will start to notice then ask you to draw stuff for them. Again, at the moment, your work... just doesn't jump at me sadly...


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## Casey Fluffbat (Aug 12, 2018)

Something I've noticed about NSFW artists is many create niche art that they know a specific audience will want, so the art doesn't have to be anything astounding.  There isn't a huge pressure to make the most elaborate or imaginative work when the goal is to satisfy. I've seen people who mainly draw vast, complex backdrops that get lots of attention, and rightfully so, because I've asked some of those artists and they say it takes them a few days to weeks of dedication to draw something of that nature. If you want more attention, then surpassing the quality of most NSFW art will make it stand out. Find things that you can improve about your art that they are too busy to include, and that might mean all of the difference.


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## Kopatropa (Aug 12, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Please do not say that my art is beginner skilled. I almost quit art because of a somewhat famous artist said that to me and hearing that again further increases my chances of giving up.


Looking at your recent drawings, I'd say you're doing okay; I don't like to use labels.

Since you want some attention (like most of us do), I'd suggest that you find some artists you like and try to befriend them. Since lots of them are to focused on life to ever talk to reply to anyone, best bet would be to find an artist you like who does reply regularly, is friendly, and is a hobbyist (Hobbyists, I think, have more free time available than anyone higher on the scale.)

If you feel like you want to improve, refer back to my post on page 1 of this thread. Additionally, whatever art skill you think needs work (shading, coloring, etc.), work on that.

Will it be long? Yes. Will it boring? Depends from artist to artist. Will this hard work make you wanna quit again? Probably. (I've quit at least twice before I stopped caring about serious studying.)

But if you truly love drawing, you'll have the will power to work through it all, and it'll eventually pay off.

Sorry if this didn't make any sense; I just woke up.


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 12, 2018)

MadKiyo said:


> Something I've noticed about NSFW artists is many create niche art that they know a specific audience will want, so the art doesn't have to be anything astounding.  There isn't a huge pressure to make the most elaborate or imaginative work when the goal is to satisfy. I've seen people who mainly draw vast, complex backdrops that get lots of attention, and rightfully so, because I've asked some of those artists and they say it takes them a few days to weeks of dedication to draw something of that nature. If you want more attention, then surpassing the quality of most NSFW art will make it stand out. Find things that you can improve about your art that they are too busy to include, and that might mean all of the difference.



That is kinda true. Just look at the NSFW artists who are known for drawing ginormous boobs or asses lol It may look VERY unappealing to some people but totally up the alley for others and it doesn't even have to look grade a polished at all (well most of the time lol). 




Kopatropa said:


> Looking at your recent drawings, I'd say you're doing okay; I don't like to use labels.
> 
> Since you want some attention (like most of us do), I'd suggest that you find some artists you like and try to befriend them. Since lots of them are to focused on life to ever talk to reply to anyone, best bet would be to find an artist you like who does reply regularly, is friendly, and is a hobbyist (Hobbyists, I think, have more free time available than anyone higher on the scale.)
> 
> ...



I do like the communicate with other artists suggestion but I find that it's very difficult to do that these days as it feels like not many people are open to talking. Plus you can run into the trap of having a one-sided friendship like maybe you support them more than they support you type of deal, I've had this happen quite a few times and it's such a crappy feeling to have. :/


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## Fiorabeast (Aug 12, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> I do like the communicate with other artists suggestion but I find that it's very difficult to do that these days as it feels like not many people are open to talking. Plus you can run into the trap of having a one-sided friendship like maybe you support them more than they support you type of deal, I've had this happen quite a few times and it's such a crappy feeling to have. :/



Pretty much this. 
Plus, not many artists want to befriend a person who only likes them for their 'cool art' either as that can read as someone trying to riding off their backs due to that, or they think you are trying to get 'exclusively free art' out of them too since I've seen THAT happen sometimes.


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 13, 2018)

Fiorabeast said:


> Pretty much this.
> Plus, not many artists want to befriend a person who only likes them for their 'cool art' either as that can read as someone trying to riding off their backs due to that, or they think you are trying to get 'exclusively free art' out of them too since I've seen THAT happen sometimes.


Yeah exactly. I touched up on this in a thread I made about higher skilled artists vs the lesser skilled artists and how most high skilled artists usually feel that if a lesser skilled artist tries to talk to them, they automatically assume said artist is just trying to bum free art from them. So the best bet is trying to find artists more around your level and grow together. That way there's no underlying feeling of being used and you still get that potential friend who is into art just like yu are.


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## Fiorabeast (Aug 14, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> Yeah exactly. I touched up on this in a thread I made about higher skilled artists vs the lesser skilled artists and how most high skilled artists usually feel that if a lesser skilled artist tries to talk to them, they automatically assume said artist is just trying to bum free art from them. So the best bet is trying to find artists more around your level and grow together. That way there's no underlying feeling of being used and you still get that potential friend who is into art just like yu are.



(I actually had to go look for that thread since it sounded interesting, and wasn't disappointed!)

Another, pretty much this. 
Though sometimes even if the skill level is different, even a higher-skilled artist is okay with a lower-skilled artist because their personality and mutual understanding (as well as same likes and certain dislikes) makes them okay in their books. The one thing that makes it NOT okay is trying to push, insist, and force a friendship with an artist of any skill level (especially of higher ones again) because not only does that make a REALLY bad impression on them, but that's just disrespecting their (our) boundaries and REALLY can make your reputation look bad as hell to the point no one wants to associate with you.


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 16, 2018)

Fiorabeast said:


> (I actually had to go look for that thread since it sounded interesting, and wasn't disappointed!)
> 
> Another, pretty much this.
> Though sometimes even if the skill level is different, even a higher-skilled artist is okay with a lower-skilled artist because their personality and mutual understanding (as well as same likes and certain dislikes) makes them okay in their books. The one thing that makes it NOT okay is trying to push, insist, and force a friendship with an artist of any skill level (especially of higher ones again) because not only does that make a REALLY bad impression on them, but that's just disrespecting their (our) boundaries and REALLY can make your reputation look bad as hell to the point no one wants to associate with you.



Oh I know that there are some higher-skilled artists who don't mind socializing and befriending lower-skilled artists for reasons outside of art but of mutual interest in a niche/fandom/etc but more and more I find this becomes rarer and rarer, especially as sites like Twitter got more popular in the art side of things, especially NSFW. 

That said, I do agree that personal space is important regardless of higher or lower-skilled artist and it's best to follow it.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 18, 2018)

drawain said:


> Okay, this is gonna be preachy, but it's straight from my experience. You need to overcome this attitude.
> 
> I once wanted to do an internship at a game art studio. Jana Schirmer, an incredible artist, told me I was not good enough. They could not work with me.
> I was like "Bitch, excuse me? I'm 17, I'm freshly aspiring, I'm not that bad for just having started to do studies!? I'm not wanting to be a workforce, I'm wanting an internship!?"
> ...


I do not know to overcome this. It's been haunting and coming back to me ever since it happened. I've gradually been losing interest to draw the more I work hard on my art only for them to get extremely underwhelming reactions from the audience. Even trying to learn from lots of tutorials and references didn't help me that much. Part of it is because I'm afraid of failure, and not going in the direction I want to.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 18, 2018)

Flumpor said:


> So, I can only give you a few of the experiences I had with the modding community. I know a few people who work on Enderal, one of the biggest Mod projects ever. There were a handful of people that already were Fulltime modders and a large sum of them did NSFW Mods for Skyrim/Oblivion, people are just more willing to fork over large amounts of money if you cater to their fetishes. Developping is expensive and if you don't do it for yourself and want to make some cash on the side, then thats where the money lies.
> Another one of my friends draws and he used to only draw SFW (Still got an awesome Sagat from him). After things didn't go so well in University he wanted to make some extra cash, now he mostly draws NSFW comissions.
> 
> However if you want to just get noticed and aren't after money then do with your art what you should do with any piece of art. Publicity, Provocation, Personality.
> ...


I want my art to get noticed and to make some money off of it, since art is my only source of income. I'm already uploading all of my current and future arts on Twitter.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 18, 2018)

Fiorabeast said:


> I'm in agreement with what @Ratchetjak and @drawain said also.
> As someone that has drawn for A LOT of years also, but just recently decided to kick my butt into gear after realizing that art is the only thing I'm good at and try to step up my own level in skills and stuff (while at my slow pace because mental and health issues have been giving me problems lately...), it's really all about drawing a lot and improving your own work, promoting yourself and making your art reflect YOU.
> Because honestly, looking at your work OP, your art style and the way you draw is very cute, BUT like what @Ratchetjak was pointing out, it's actually unpolished and it's not quite there yet. Other things I noticed are your choice/lack of variety of colors in your works, as well as your characters' poses being static... Which is the possible reason there isn't much interest in people wanting to commission you because to them, it feels like you lack a LOT of experience despite the contrary on what you are telling us. Even there are artists who draw in a cute style like you, but when people look at them, they can tell that artist looks like they at LEAST have a lot of experience of drawing a lot of things under their belts and know what they specialize in.
> 
> ...


I get what you mean about the poses being static, is there any poses you would like me to at the very least attempt? I'm not sure how to improve on the colors, that's the one thing I absolutely struggle with.

As for the questions, I specialize and enjoy drawing characters. I don't do a lot of drawing; I just make a drawing from start to finish and that's about it. I've once opened commissions on the Art Sales thread and as expected, not one person was interested.

I can't answer all of the questions right now since it's a bit much for me.


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## zenmaldita (Aug 18, 2018)

just keep doing what you like and enjoy the ride. as long as you keep drawing, you're bound to improve. it's more physical adeptness than talent really. give it a few years.
if you want more traffic, make your art more interesting. you have the basics down and your coloring is already good. so why not try to make a comic? gather interest with a fun comic and I'm sure you'll get a following.

don't mind the nsfw art and their follows - that's them. what's important is you do your thing


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## Fiorabeast (Aug 19, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> I get what you mean about the poses being static, is there any poses you would like me to at the very least attempt? I'm not sure how to improve on the colors, that's the one thing I absolutely struggle with.
> 
> As for the questions, I specialize and enjoy drawing characters. I don't do a lot of drawing; I just make a drawing from start to finish and that's about it. I've once opened commissions on the Art Sales thread and as expected, not one person was interested.
> 
> I can't answer all of the questions right now since it's a bit much for me.



Look up color palettes on the internet, especially this site to get an idea for colors. Like, use those and challenge yourself to only use those colors there?

When you tell me that you can't answer all the questions, that tells ME that despite claiming that you draw for a lot of years, that you REALLY LACK a lot of KNOWLEDGE in other things to make you and your art stand out. An artist doesn't only draw, they get information from a lot of things that pertain to their hobbies and interest and incorporate it into their art. What kind of hobbies and interest do you have besides art here? If you do have something you like besides art, can you draw that INTO your art? Also, do you even have an artist you are inspired by to study their style and coloring technique to improve yourself? 
You say you specialize in drawing characters.... And? What else can you do? What else do you specialize in besides that? Can you draw anything else besides characters? Again, the reason why not many people look is because you are not showcasing a lot of things you can draw, showing anything that is interesting to them, nor show that you are practicing at all. Us artists here mentioned doing a comic (it doesn't have to be a dozen pages but ONE PANEL is OKAY to work from!) as that seems to fit more of your artwork here, but I feel like you keep brushing that suggestion off.
Like, my gallery may not be polished or completely full of things at the moment, but at LEAST I know what art style, what things I like to draw and what I need to level up and other things I need in order to get more people to come commission me and stuff. I'm even planning posting up a couple of comics there since that's my main thing I want to do rather than illustrations really.

Unfortunately, if I asked you to draw a specific pose, will you be WILLING to DRAW it out and learn from it? Will you be willing to draw at least 4 or so to 'get it right' and practice it first before attempting it for reals? Like what poses do YOU want to draw really? Say I tell you, 'Draw this character that is skateboarding in mid air', can I trust you to go and look up pictures of that, draw it out, give me rough sketch of it and try to adjust it to how I want the drawing to be? 
Because when you say that you don't do a lot of drawing and just make a drawing from start to finish (without doing thumbnails or rough drafts first I assume), nor even do ANY kind of drawing studies and practice, that doesn't inspire confidence in me, as someone one who is not only an artist but someone that is looking to buy art. 
Also, I don't mean starting a new thread to SELL your art, I mean going into the threads where commissioners are 'hiring' and saying they want something specific and YOU coming in there, posting your examples and prices to them. Also, what about offering free art first in the Art Trades thread? Have you done that at all to advertise either? Because whether you like it or not, you might as well offer your services for free first for a limited time to gauge how many people are interested in having you draw their fursona.
I am asking a LOT of questions here because that's what commissioners will be doing to you if they hire you. If you can't answer with confidence or are avoiding answering altogether, again that shows that you really have a lack of skill and knowledge in what you do in your art and yourself as an artist here.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 25, 2018)

Fiorabeast said:


> Look up color palettes on the internet, especially this site to get an idea for colors. Like, use those and challenge yourself to only use those colors there?
> 
> When you tell me that you can't answer all the questions, that tells ME that despite claiming that you draw for a lot of years, that you REALLY LACK a lot of KNOWLEDGE in other things to make you and your art stand out. An artist doesn't only draw, they get information from a lot of things that pertain to their hobbies and interest and incorporate it into their art. What kind of hobbies and interest do you have besides art here? If you do have something you like besides art, can you draw that INTO your art? Also, do you even have an artist you are inspired by to study their style and coloring technique to improve yourself?
> You say you specialize in drawing characters.... And? What else can you do? What else do you specialize in besides that? Can you draw anything else besides characters? Again, the reason why not many people look is because you are not showcasing a lot of things you can draw, showing anything that is interesting to them, nor show that you are practicing at all. Us artists here mentioned doing a comic (it doesn't have to be a dozen pages but ONE PANEL is OKAY to work from!) as that seems to fit more of your artwork here, but I feel like you keep brushing that suggestion off.
> ...


Here's the thing, I started drawing back in 2010 as a fun hobby, but it was only two years ago I got serious with my art and wanted improve various aspects of my skills, such as anatomy. While I obviously still have a lot to learn, and I am very happy with how my art evolved overtime.

You also mentioned that I should do a comic, and I agree, I never said I did not want to. My main concern is that I'm not a writer, and writing is key when making a comic and I lack the skill to write, I only know how to draw. Of course, if you would suggest that I should team up with a friend who *does *know how to write, I agree. I want to make a comic since that's one of my resolutions for this year, but I have yet to find the energy to do so.

I must have misread that reply. I haven't gone to those hiring threads(at least on FAF) and while I do plan on doing so, I doubt I'd find someone that would actually be interested, since I tried many ways to get my commissions to sell. I'm very miffed about doing free art since once again, I started taking art seriously. I once offered free art on another website and have completed 14 requests, and doing all those requests felt like I haven't earned anything in return, so the probability of giving away free art is unlikely unless it's a raffle in which I'll be hosting for sure.

To sum it up, what you said is true and it kinda hurts. I do admit I have a hard time trying to keep up with art, but I've been trying my best to improve on my works. It's all because I lack motivation and inspiration, and how can I overcome this?


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 26, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Here's the thing, I started drawing back in 2010 as a fun hobby, but it was only two years ago I got serious with my art and wanted improve various aspects of my skills, such as anatomy. While I obviously still have a lot to learn, and I am very happy with how my art evolved overtime.
> 
> You also mentioned that I should do a comic, and I agree, I never said I did not want to. My main concern is that I'm not a writer, and writing is key when making a comic and I lack the skill to write, I only know how to draw. Of course, if you would suggest that I should team up with a friend who *does *know how to write, I agree. I want to make a comic since that's one of my resolutions for this year, but I have yet to find the energy to do so.
> 
> ...



Believe me, I can understand how it can be hard to make art as I don't practice enough as I should be because I'm trying to balance art and making Youtube videos (trying to maintain 2 main channels). So I can so understand but honestly, the best thing we can do is try to make time when we can. You gotta just get your paper (or tablet) and just start well... Doodling! That's the best way to get back into drawing because after awhile you'll find yourself wanting to draw all kinds of things when you get the engines revved up lol


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## zenmaldita (Aug 26, 2018)

@MikeTheBrownFox drawing has to be enjoyable for you to not notice the amount of work you've already done <motivation> so um 

is there a show you like? a book you like??? a game??
how about fanart? make something for yourself that you enjoy.

if you have an OC or fursona you adore you can practice with them. draw them in situations - explore together. 

after a incredibly severe moodswing, I couldn't draw at all - but I wanted to! So instead of drawing commissions or comics, I drew my fursona going on a day out despite feeling shitty. They weren't masterpieces -- just doodles with random colors. But having something done feels good.

So just try.


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## Fiorabeast (Aug 26, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Here's the thing, I started drawing back in 2010 as a fun hobby, but it was only two years ago I got serious with my art and wanted improve various aspects of my skills, such as anatomy. While I obviously still have a lot to learn, and I am very happy with how my art evolved overtime.
> 
> You also mentioned that I should do a comic, and I agree, I never said I did not want to. My main concern is that I'm not a writer, and writing is key when making a comic and I lack the skill to write, I only know how to draw. Of course, if you would suggest that I should team up with a friend who *does *know how to write, I agree. I want to make a comic since that's one of my resolutions for this year, but I have yet to find the energy to do so.
> 
> ...



Honestly, getting commissions has become something of a competition I feel, so if you don't bring something interesting to the table to make people WANT to look and stuff, then you won't get any offers simply. Not to mention, complaining about not getting commissions won't exactly make a lot of people go to you either...
The thing with free art is you HAVE to set a number limit (like three or something manageable), then close it once you get to that number. If someone tries to get free art out of you when that thread is closed, you tell them that if they want art from you, they have to commission you (this happened to me actually, and I had to tell them this). You doing 14 requests, at least shows you have the work ethic but you didn't limit yourself there. I'd try FAF here and see how many people you get this time, set a number limit and some requirements of what you will draw, then state when your slots are filled that you are available to commission.

You can team up with another writer, but that writer has to be willing to be okay to collaborate with you. But then your idea and their idea might be different which is why it's better to just learn new things rather than just sit on your arse and not do anything.  Listen, I DID say way back up there that a comic *doesn't have to be a dozen pages but ONE PAGE PANEL is OKAY to work from*! Did you even read what I wrote carefully?
I don't know what country you live in, but have you never read political cartoons? Those rely on ONE panel drawing to get their point across. American newspaper comics like 'The Far Side' or Non-Sequitur also only do 1-2 panels only. Four panel comics like 'Pop Team Epic? only require just four panels for a simple, random joke to get across. Those are SIMPLE to work with for beginners, and honestly I wouldn't recommend doing story comics if you have not read a lot of comics (which sounds like you don't to me). To get into comics, you need to READ. If you don't like reading or have any interest in other things to put into your artwork (which WHY I asked up there what hobbies and stuff you do to get an idea to improve your work, and you choose to ignore it!) then you are not going to get anyone to look at your art all much less even get people to commission you either.

(It hurts, but if you don't toughen yourself up as an artist and find what you CAN do, you are not going to get very far and might as well just do art as a hobby and earn money another way. Because earning money via art is hard if you don't sell yourself or make your art eye-catching and pro-level for some people).


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## Jay98 (Aug 26, 2018)

to me it's kinda a double edged sword.

there are enough people upvoting furry porn that it hits the most popular bracket, then people see that it's popular and promote it again like a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 26, 2018)

Jay98 said:


> to me it's kinda a double edged sword.
> 
> there are enough people upvoting furry porn that it hits the most popular bracket, then people see that it's popular and promote it again like a self-fulfilling prophecy.


I think it's about people just liking it.. and not necessarily promoting it, per say. NSFW is clearly more popular (with the masses).. and so, it gets more votes.


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## Minerva_Minx (Aug 31, 2018)

As, I guess the "audience member", I fell in love with my fursona's NSFW ref drawing.  Maybe because I am older, or like Roman, Greek, and Renaissance sculpture and drawing.  I have found that people do like porn, but the body has natural art to it.  Nudity has a vulnerability aspect.  So the grotesque porn I really don't like.
I looked at your style.  Too me: it is young, cartoony, and attractive to my kids.  So, the audience you are playing for seems like my type, older non-drawers who need to commission to get their fursona in play, butg you are more in need of the younger childlike audience who need escape.  Maybe I'm nuts, too.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Aug 31, 2018)

Minerva_Minx said:


> As, I guess the "audience member", I fell in love with my fursona's NSFW ref drawing.  Maybe because I am older, or like Roman, Greek, and Renaissance sculpture and drawing.  I have found that people do like porn, but the body has natural art to it.  Nudity has a vulnerability aspect.  So the grotesque porn I really don't like.
> I looked at your style.  Too me: it is young, cartoony, and attractive to my kids.  So, the audience you are playing for seems like my type, older non-drawers who need to commission to get their fursona in play, but you are more in need of the younger childlike audience who need escape.  Maybe I'm nuts, too.


It's all dependent really. Even a cartoony or cute style that has NSFW mixed in it can also be pretty effective(I've seen this with various artists).


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## BunBunArt (Sep 1, 2018)

It's just like anything else... offer and demand. People like+18 art and same happens with fanart. That's the reason artists who mostly draw original stuff and not so much public NSFW art. we don't get many followers. If you want to make a living out of this you must think of it as a business and think about the clients...what sells the most and WHO are your clients. You can't please everyone so you must choose what kind of service you are offering and to what kind of people.

After you've got yourself a name and clients then it's more likely that they will also follow your original work. Same for the NSFW art.

Me for example, I love drawing nudes and some hot scenes but I don't make them public... the 3 NSFW sketches I have uploaded here in this community nobody else knows about them (I even used a different name on furaffinity, so it will be harder to find, but I still like it and I want to share it x.x ).
And yes, I am not very popular and I am sure if I make public all my +18 art, I will get lots of views... But I am the same as you and I don't want to be known for that kind of art 8( 

So yes, life as an artist is really hard but not impossible.


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Sep 12, 2018)

RoxyHana said:


> It's just like anything else... offer and demand. People like+18 art and same happens with fanart. That's the reason artists who mostly draw original stuff and not so much public NSFW art. we don't get many followers. If you want to make a living out of this you must think of it as a business and think about the clients...what sells the most and WHO are your clients. You can't please everyone so you must choose what kind of service you are offering and to what kind of people.
> 
> After you've got yourself a name and clients then it's more likely that they will also follow your original work. Same for the NSFW art.
> 
> ...


I just wish it was easy, even though I know it isn't.

I'm having a hard time trying to cope with all of this...


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Sep 22, 2018)

Honestly, it feels like at this point, unless I start drawing NSFW more often, my art won't go anywhere and won't have a good future.

Sex and nudity sells.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 22, 2018)

MikeTheBrownFox said:


> Honestly, it feels like at this point, unless I start drawing NSFW more often, my art won't go anywhere and won't have a good future.
> 
> Sex and nudity sells.



Most artists' art doesn't go anywhere by the way. Drawing nudes won't guarantee a successful career either. 

It's important that we make art for ourselves, rather than because we expect a career out of it, I guess.


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## faerr (Sep 22, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Most artists' art doesn't go anywhere by the way. Drawing nudes won't guarantee a successful career either.
> 
> It's important that we make art for ourselves, rather than because we expect a career out of it, I guess.



Van Gogh is a great example of this; he is a prolific and famed painter. Of the 900 paintings he created during his lifetime, he only ever sold one.

Make art for yourself, completely agree with @Fallowfox. Even the masters weren't guaranteed fame.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 22, 2018)

_This_ is why you should do art:


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## Amibo (Sep 26, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> _This_ is why you should do art:



You're everywhere and I love how blunt you are =D


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## CertifiedCervine (Sep 26, 2018)

I’ve never seen the appeal of nsfw tbh, but it’s your art, don’t let anyone tell you how to do it!
You’ve just got to keep trying!
Perhaps you could make a comic?


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## MikeTheBrownFox (Jan 31, 2019)

Bump. Still looking for answers and thoughts from the community.

(Is bumping threads allowed?)


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## chuckfiala (Feb 3, 2019)

I have found that NSFW art is much more popular than SFW art in general. There are a few artists who do well with SFW art, but even a good percentage of their fans like NSFW art as well.
Most artists enjoy drawing NSFW art.


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## Fruitythebeetle (Feb 4, 2019)

i've been meaning to do nsfw for a long time but i feel it requires a certain amount of skill to work.


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