# Help me choose a laptop, gaming or otherwise (rant-ish)



## greg-the-fox (May 29, 2012)

I'm not much of a gamer but I've been looking at gaming laptops because they have very high end components in the areas that matter to me; power, graphics, and audio. I'll be using it for CAD work, 3D modeling and rendering (possibly animations?), photo editing and art, music production, djing, multitasking and multi-screen use, and yes some casual gaming (More along the lines of Skyrim, not so much Crysis 2 or anything crazy, I would just like to run current games at full(ish) settings for once at the very least and still have some power left over) Well I would probably get more into gaming if I had a better computer and more hard drive space anyway. Most of the dedicated gaming models I looked at are absolutely massive and hideously ugly imo (ahem, Asus) and definitely overkill for what I'm looking for. 

I'm kind of looking for that balance between powerful and a somewhat slim body, something portable with a respectable battery life. (3-5hrs, 5-6lbs) "Multimedia" laptops or "desktop replacements" also fall into this category, but they seem to targeted to a mainstream audience and favor looks for power, but are more of what I'm looking for in terms of appearance, size, and battery life. I think so far the best gaming laptop I've found is the MSI GE60 0ND-042US This thing has pretty much everything I want in terms of hardware specs (or what I think I want) A more mainstream alternative would be something like the ASUS N55SF. Obviously I want the best of both worlds but I'm not sure it's really possible... I've been doing research for ages to find that perfect balance between power, size, looks, and price and I really don't think there's anything out there that meets all of those, I feel like I have to settle in at least one area. At least with gaming laptops you can buy them customized with all sorts of performance upgrades.

I'm wondering if a desktop would be better but I just hate being tied down to one location. I guess I don't technically have to have a laptop, I already have a Macbook Pro but it's 4 years old now and feels very much outdated, I don't know how much longer I'll want to keep it (probably until it dies, but who knows when that will be) This is _kind_ of a replacement and I suppose I don't necessarily _need_ a laptop over a desktop, though I do need a PC. HALP.


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## Jaxinc (Jun 1, 2012)

Gaming computers with a slim body and long battery life? Ya you're not going to find that, not until microchips get ridiculously smaller and batteries become super efficient...

I have a Falcon Northwest DRX, and at 15lbs fully loaded it's less than slim... and the battery life average is 45 minutes on power save settings. However it has 3 hard drives, 2 graphics cards and 4 60mm fans running at all times along with the 17" screen.

For a laptop I would not trust anything other than Sager. My Falcon is basically a rebranded, customized Sager.
http://www.sagernotebook.com

Personally desktops are useless to me and that is the reason I bought a desktop replacement... since I'm always either on the road or at work a desktop is simply pointless and only would collect dust at home.


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## Saiko (Jun 2, 2012)

Have you looked at the Acer Aspire series? Some of them appear to be well-rounded laptops if I remember correctly. The main thing I haven't liked about one of them was a built-in battery, but I'm not sure if the current models have that.


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm one of those that never pay over 500 for a laptop. If I go over that I may as well build my own desktop and get better components.


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## Fernin (Jun 2, 2012)

Asus G75, you can get them from Best Buy for 1200 or so, they'll run anything you want to play including Crysis 2. I've got an older G74 and it runs BF3 with everything but AA maxed and Crysis 2 with everything but shadows and AA maxed. The G75 has about 45-50% performance gain over the G74 I have, so yah,it'll run pretty much anything you need.

The second option is an MSI with which you have two choices. For 1600 you can get this ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834152347 ), or for 2k you can get ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834152345 ) which a somewhat better equipped machine. Also, trust me when I say you DO NOT want to get a 15in machine. 1920x1200 on a 15inch screen blows. -_-

And as for Falcon, they're good machines, very well built, but very over priced for the performance they offer.


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## Jaxinc (Jun 4, 2012)

Saiko said:


> Have you looked at the Acer Aspire series? Some of them appear to be well-rounded laptops if I remember correctly. The main thing I haven't liked about one of them was a built-in battery, but I'm not sure if the current models have that.



Acer laptops are ok, not heard anything 'bad' about them per say, but I would only buy a 'gaming' laptop from a company that has been doing it for years now, as Acer only started doing laptops recently(see last 5 years). This is my preference though, and you could get that Acer and it might work perfectly and never have a problem.

Built in battery is an immediate no, my battery is screwed into the chassis... I can remove and replace in a few seconds, and I'd rather not disassemble the chassis just to replace the battery WHEN the li-ion cells die, and they WILL die eventually.



> And as for Falcon, they're good machines, very well built, but very over priced for the performance they offer.


Correct, they are solid, but pricey. This is why I listed Sager instead of Falcon, since Falcon takes Sager laptops and modifies them including paint. My Falcon DRX is ultimately a Sager laptop with fancy paint.


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## greg-the-fox (Jun 4, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I'm one of those that never pay over 500 for a laptop. If I go over that I may as well build my own desktop and get better components.



I think I'm coming around to this view. Once you go over $1000 or so the law of diminishing returns kicks in and everything gets extremely expensive and impractical.
I've been doing A. LOT. of research. I think I would like to try to build a mid-range gaming PC for around $600-$800 that I can upgrade if I want to later. I've never built anything really and I hardly know anything about hardware but I think I can do it, if I can only pick the right parts and actually stick to a budget (but that's another subject entirely) I'm lacking purpose in my life right now and I think I need a big project to keep myself sane...

To be honest I've been too greedy to spend money that I don't actually have. I have to admit, I only have around $600 right now and no steady income. And I still have a laptop that works decently for most things. I think I'll get a desktop now, wait until something in my current laptop breaks, I actually have money, and _then_ think about getting another laptop. Something light. I can't bring myself to sacrifice portability for power, but I need power, so this is the only logical choice. Have two machines for two different functions. Probably by the time I'm ready to buy a laptop, technology will have improved enough so that I can get what I actually want out of a laptop. I always feel like what I want out of technology is several years ahead of what actually exists -_- And by the time it does exist, I'll just want something better...

Well thanks everyone for your help, sorry for being so picky and whiny and wasting your time


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## ToeClaws (Jun 4, 2012)

Glad to see this seems to be coming around to the idea of a gaming PC vs a laptop.  I've said it many times before on here and other forums - *there is no such thing as a gaming laptop*.  Many companies label a laptop as "gaming", but in reality there simply cannot be such a thing with current electronics chip-making technology.  GPUs generate an inane amount of heat, and heat is always the biggest problem in mobile devices.  Special low-power CPUs and GPUs are created as a partial work-around with the caveat being that the mobile GPU is a great deal less powerful than even a modestly priced desktop cousin.  As such, no matter how expensive the gaming laptop might be, it just won't perform as well as a desktop.

Further to that, companies that try to push the edge by putting better hardware in the laptops then run into the heat issue - how to cool the things.  Some build them larger with crazy fans (which makes them less portable and absolutely horrible on batteries) and some just try to run them at higher temperatures, which of course shortens their lives.

In the end, a mid-range price desktop, as you mention, will get you WAY more performance than the laptop for much less, and has the huge advantage of being upgrade-able.  That's the other cash-cow of the so called gaming laptop - even if the thing doesn't burn out on you, manufacturers know that it'll be obsolete in 2 years or less and that you'll need to get another one. 

For the PC, go with a moderately priced GPU and you'll be set for 2 or 3 years, after which time you can just upgrade the card for more power.  Just about any modern multi-core CPU has the muscle necessary to feed the video card.  Just make sure to shoot for a card that is considered the upper-third of it's family (for example, a Radeon 6800 series, not the lesser 6700 and below), and I would suggest 1g or more of video RAM.  Good luck!


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## Fernin (Jun 4, 2012)

ToeClaws said:


> Glad to see this seems to be coming around to the idea of a gaming PC vs a laptop.  I've said it many times before on here and other forums - *there is no such thing as a gaming laptop*.



So eh, then my laptop right here, the one I'm typing on right now, which Runs BF3 pretty much maxed (aa at x2 and shadows on high) or my husband's brother's msi laptop which runs BF3, Crysis, Crysis 2, and pretty much anything else completely maxed with a stable 70 fps are figments of my imagination... Right? Right? *RIGHT?????*

Idiot.

There are perfectly capable gaming laptops. Are they expensive? Yes, but they get the job done quite well, and allow one to take their gaming machine with them so a friend's house or lan events. Many of the better ones have components that will last ages (my old Falcon lasted till around last year before I had to start bumping down settings in games), and when you factor in the price of a good monitor, mouse, and keyboard you'll find a strong gaming tower costs about the same as an equally powerful gaming laptop.

Frankly the only advantage a tower retains these days is the upgradbility, then again in better gaming laptops you can swap components CPU/RAM and in a couple the GPU as well. Of course that's also not cheap, but then again neither is staying on the cutting edge of tower based hardware where good CPUs are 300-400 a pop and a strong GPU runs 400 or more. Sure there's bargain bin parts out there (the 550ti comes to mind) but by the time they are bargain bin they can't run anything maxed.


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 4, 2012)

Why is he an idiot? He's being practical. Too many components break down after a while making a laptop more of a hassle than a desktop. I like my laptop for portability, but even the most expensive laptops become crap when you need it to do certain things. 

OP, there were plenty of videos I went through for building a desktop. It was daunting for me at first, but I started with what processor I wanted. This depended on what I wanted the computer for.

After that, you figure out what kind of motherboards work with that processor. You budget to find out what kind of RAM and components are on the board. Once you decide you go for RAM, Video Card, Power SUPPLY and casing. I usually recommend around 600watts or more depending on the kind of processor and mobo (motherboard) you have. Do you want more USB ports? Do 

Antec towers are pretty cheap and do what I need them to do. Some people will tell you to spend 100 - you don't really need to.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-your-own-pc,2601.html had lots of relevant info, and watching some youtubes did help.

I also bought a toolkit with anti-static wrist brace as well


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## Fernin (Jun 4, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> Why is he an idiot? He's being practical. Too many components break down after a while making a laptop more of a hassle than a desktop. I like my laptop for portability, but even the most expensive laptops become crap when you need it to do certain things. l



I have laptops more than 10 years old that have to yet to break, and several of them with overclocked CPUs and GPUs. There is nothing a tower can do that a laptop can't, but alot that a good laptop can that a tower never could. At least not practically. 

I've been hearing this 'no such thing as a gaming laptop' drivel for years, and it hasn't even been true for about a decade. The off hand discounting of the subject by people to ignorant to actually look into it makes my blood boil. If you're going to try and discount something, at least present some facts instead of uninformed hearsay.


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## Jaxinc (Jun 5, 2012)

ToeClaws said:


> Glad to see this seems to be coming around to  the idea of a gaming PC vs a laptop.  I've said it many times before on  here and other forums - *there is no such thing as a gaming laptop*.   Many companies label a laptop as "gaming", but in reality there simply  cannot be such a thing with current electronics chip-making technology.   GPUs generate an inane amount of heat, and heat is always the biggest  problem in mobile devices.  Special low-power CPUs and GPUs are created  as a partial work-around with the caveat being that the mobile GPU is a  great deal less powerful than even a modestly priced desktop cousin.  As  such, no matter how expensive the gaming laptop might be, it just won't  perform as well as a desktop.


The heck you been smoking son? No such thing as a gaming laptop? What are you stuck in the 90s? 

While you are correct that they produce a lot of heat, but this is also relative to how the laptop is constructed... if they are made like DELL with one dinky 20mm fan to keep a 512mb card cool.. then yes it's going to run at 170F+ at all times, while my laptop with 4 60mm fans runs at 120F idle and 160F gaming.

You are INCORRECT about CPUs, there isn't just 'one' CPU for a laptop, there are both low power consumption ones(Atom for instance) and higher consumption ones... i guess you didn't realize that many 'gaming' laptops now use the i5 and i7? My laptop's power supply is larger than the Xbox 360's power brick... and it came equipped with a 65w 3ghz E8400, and capable of running up to a 95w processor(same as the latest DESKTOP i7 CPU).

You are PARTIALLY correct on the GPUs... because of size restrictions they simply can not accommodate all of the abilities the desktop variants have. Example being an 260GTXm has 112 streaming processors and the 260GTX has 192 streaming processors, but of course it doesnt help matters that Nvidia likes to rebrand/name their GPUs as a new card when it's nothing but a revamped older card(ie 8800>>9800>>260>>280...ect..).



> Further to that, companies that try to push the edge by putting better  hardware in the laptops then run into the heat issue - how to cool the  things.  Some build them larger with crazy fans (which makes them less  portable and absolutely horrible on batteries) and some just try to run  them at higher temperatures, which of course shortens their lives.


This part you are correct on, but then gaming laptops are NOT small by any means.. my laptop is 15lbs with all three hard drives and twin graphics cards. My laptop has a copper heatsink and piping running from one end of the laptop to the other, and four 60mm fans to keep it cool, and this is a PROPER way to cool things. Companies like DELL like to shortcut and put ONE fucking tiny fan and some shitty excuse for a heatsink in it and the thing can't run below 150F idle because of it.



> In the end, a mid-range price desktop, as you mention, will get you WAY  more performance than the laptop for much less, and has the huge  advantage of being upgrade-able.  That's the other cash-cow of the so  called gaming laptop - even if the thing doesn't burn out on you,  manufacturers know that it'll be obsolete in 2 years or less and that  you'll need to get another one.


Desktops will ALWAYS have more power than a laptop given the same parts, and will ALWAYS be cheaper, this is a given. Us car guys have a saying "You have to pay if you want to play"

Upgradeability is RELATIVE to what you get. If you get some over the counter POS that is integrated everything... have fun even upgrading RAM since you'll probably have to disassemble half the casing to get to the ram cards. My laptop is completely modular and everything can be upgraded and replaced, processor, ram, GPUs, hard drives....

*ALL TECHNOLOGY IS OBSOLETE/OUTDATED AFTER TWO YEARS, INCLUDING DESKTOPS AND LAPTOPS. *This is because new tech comes out every 2-4 years and thus the stuff gets outdated and replaced, but this doesnt mean you still can't use it 4 or 8 years later. My laptop is 4 years old and has no problems running Skyrim on max resolution, Crysis, Fallout, or ANY other modern game.







Fernin said:


> I have laptops more than 10 years old that have to yet to break, and several of them with overclocked CPUs and GPUs. There is nothing a tower can do that a laptop can't, but alot that a good laptop can that a tower never could. At least not practically.
> 
> I've been hearing this 'no such thing as a gaming laptop' drivel for years, and it hasn't even been true for about a decade. The off hand discounting of the subject by people to ignorant to actually look into it makes my blood boil. If you're going to try and discount something, at least present some facts instead of uninformed hearsay.



Exactly.


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 5, 2012)

Fernin said:


> I have laptops more than 10 years old that have to yet to break, and several of them with overclocked CPUs and GPUs. There is nothing a tower can do that a laptop can't, but alot that a good laptop can that a tower never could. At least not practically.



So a good laptop can swap a video card specifically made for CAD? A Good laptop can switch the size of their monitor, (and I don't mean adding another monitor.) You can easily switch to an IPS monitor if you desire or do you have to buy the components and if those components work with the laptop? The OP as also talking about CAD so it gets more expensive. You can get a system that has those components in, but if the user wants a larger monitor better off working form a desktop and getting two bigger monitors. Mostly because a lot of those panels get in the way when working in programs.

So while you guys are outraged about "well no such thing as a gaming monitor" which really is a minor quibble the OP is looking for the wrong things in a laptop. Get a desktop and doing finished work is better on a desktop. Your laptop is ok for travel, but it will have shortcomings when you need it to be its best at performance for what you want it to do. 

Yeah, it's not always as "practical" as you think in the reverse.


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## Runefox (Jun 5, 2012)

ITT: Guys who bought Alienware thinking it was the shit and need to defend their e-peens.

Getting back to OP, do you really need a PC? If you had your heart set on a laptop, a new 15" MacBook Pro might be a better way to go overall if you're already familiar with Mac OS. You can run Windows either via Boot Camp or Parallels, and with a RAM upgrade (aftermarket, not from the factory) they're a powerhouse (quad core i7 with a 6750? Not too shabby). Of course, the gaming laptops would have technically better specs, but they'll also have way lower battery life and by and large be much heavier, louder, and hotter, too. Plus you get a great screen to go with it.

As for gaming laptops...

Bottom line: Gaming laptops are stuffed with more crap than they should be for their size. They're usually heavily proprietary, and tend to have far more problems due to the amount of power draw and heat that's inherent in the setup. They can't be easily upgraded beyond RAM + HDD, and their cost is far greater than a comparable gaming desktop, monitor included. At best, they're a solution for a dorm room gamer who hasn't got room for a tower or has to bring their behemoth of a computer from place to place often (in which case, your poor shoulders). At worst, they're a gargantuan waste of money that sell based on the fact that they have the term "gaming" slapped on them.



> There is nothing a tower can do that a laptop can't



Bullshit. Put a USB 3.0 or Firewire 800 card in your laptop. Oh, wait, your shiny new laptop doesn't have a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot? Nobody's been using those for years? Okay then. Put a new video card in there. What's that? You're limited to whatever three or four cards Alienware or whoever decided to manufacture for that model? That's too bad. What about a RAID 1 mirror of 2TB drives alongside your system drives for storage? Oh? You don't have room for more than two drives? Damn. Guess there are things that towers CAN do that laptops can't.



> i guess you didn't realize that many 'gaming' laptops now use the i5 and i7?



I can't think of a single laptop that makes use of a desktop i5 or i7 processor. Check any high-end gaming laptops and tell me what the CPU model number is. If it ends with "M", well, guess you've got a mobile processor that's cranked down to save on power and heat output.



> My laptop is completely modular and everything can be upgraded and replaced, processor, ram, *GPUs*, hard drives....



Bullshit. Your GPU can be replaced... By one of three or four options specifically designed for your laptop. There is no connection standard for GPU's in a laptop, so you're limited to whatever proprietary bullshit Alienware or whoever makes the laptop decided to offer. And good luck getting a new motherboard to upgrade to the shiny new CPU series that will come out in a year's time.




> *ALL TECHNOLOGY IS OBSOLETE/OUTDATED AFTER TWO YEARS, INCLUDING DESKTOPS AND LAPTOPS. This is because new tech comes out every 2-4 years and thus the stuff gets outdated and replaced, but this doesnt mean you still can't use it 4 or 8 years later. My laptop is 4 years old and has no problems running Skyrim on max resolution, Crysis, Fallout, or ANY other modern game.*



Okay, but I can slap a new video card in my PC for around $300 and get back up to speed, while an obsolete gaming laptop needs to be entirely replaced for ~$1500+. Whoops. Also, laaaawl "max resolution".

None of that even considers that gaming wasn't the focus of the OP.


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## kayfox (Jun 5, 2012)

Runefox said:


> Bullshit. Your GPU can be replaced... By one of three or four options specifically designed for your laptop. There is no connection standard for GPU's in a laptop, so you're limited to whatever proprietary bullshit Alienware or whoever makes the laptop decided to offer. And good luck getting a new motherboard to upgrade to the shiny new CPU series that will come out in a year's time.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module

Bullshit?


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## Runefox (Jun 5, 2012)

kayfox said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module
> 
> Bullshit?


Nope.



			
				TheArticle said:
			
		

> *Standard availability*
> 
> MXM is no longer supplied freely by nVidia but it is controlled by the MXM-SIG controlled by nVidia. *Only corporate clients are granted access to the standard*. While the MXM 2.1 specification is widely available the 3.0 spec has not yet been released/leaked.
> *[edit]Module compatibility*
> ...



Emphasis added. In other words, again, you're limited to whatever the manufacturer of the laptop produced for the model. The connection standard isn't meant for user-upgradability, but for simplifying manufacturing.




			
				AlsoFromTheArticle said:
			
		

> Sager has been utilizing fully standardized MXM cards on all of its high-end notebooks for the past few years.
> MSI uses standard MXM on almost all recent GX and GT series laptops. They provide excellent BIOS support with MXM structure and have had the largest number cases in which a laptop was upgraded beyond specification.
> Alienware has been using MXM on almost all notebooks. Since being bought out by Dell, they use MXM (3.0) on all of their notebooks excluding the m11x and the m14x
> Dell now uses MXM 3.0 on its Precision series, including the m6500, m4600 and m6600.
> ...


So in that case, we have only a few manufacturers who actually use standardized MXM. Only those cards which have been produced by such manufacturers will be compatible with an MXM-equipped machine, and only if that machine is ALSO standardized, and that's assuming the machine has a capable cooling system to handle the card. In other words, it's a clusterfuck, and practically speaking, you're better off not bothering with MXM.

And you don't have to take my word for it:


			
				RightAtTheTopOfTheArticle said:
			
		

> Clevo/Sager and Alienware (Dell) currently manufacture and implement the largest amount of MXM cards in their laptops and are the only known manufacturers of most standard high end MXM 3.0 models for gaming.


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## kayfox (Jun 5, 2012)

The person you quoted is not factually incorrect, everything is upgradable.  Even if its not standardized.


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 5, 2012)

kayfox said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module
> 
> Bullshit?



Yeah but is it still really worth it in the end? Especially for what the OP is intending his new rig for.

Keeping the macbook around for travel is a sound idea. Building a desktop so you can have the rig to do completed work for the artwork that the OP mentioned is a better idea. While you can add a monitor and make it the primary, the biggest problem as I previously mentioned is the laptop form factor becomes more of a hindrance than help when doing artwork, even with 3D modelling 

Screen real estate is a a precious commodity, and it's just more preferable to have 2 good sized monitors than playing hookup jockey. It's not the same. 

As a person who first had a laptop to work on art specially due to space restrictions - after getting a good desktop it is a much better decision. You become more buyer conscious too with your purchases. 

If windows is too much of a hassle you can get a mac desktop.


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## ToeClaws (Jun 5, 2012)

Easy people... I didn't mean to cause a big storm of arguments with my post.  I also think some of you misunderstand what I'm trying to say.  I know there are laptops out there that are powerful, I know that there are huge variations of CPUs, capabilities, as well as mean system life experienced by users.  I'm not implying you can't successfully game for years on a laptop, or enjoy long trouble-free periods of usage on them - you can, and people have.

What I'm trying to clarify is that you cannot ever have a laptop that will match a PC when it comes to the "gaming" sense of performance.  GPUs for PCs can simply take more power and have more cooling than inside of a laptop.  Now... admittedly, the gap is slowly closing.  Go back 6 years ago, and the gap was pretty huge.  Today, a Radeon 6690 in the desktop achieves only about 40 to 50% better framerates than its mobile version.  The gap is similarly shrinking for Nvidia as well.

If the trend continues, the laptop may one day be on-par with the desktop with the only major issue remaining being the inability to upgrade them.



> *ALL TECHNOLOGY IS OBSOLETE/OUTDATED AFTER TWO YEARS, INCLUDING DESKTOPS AND LAPTOPS. This is because new tech comes out every 2-4 years and thus the stuff gets outdated and replaced, but this doesnt mean you still can't use it 4 or 8 years later. My laptop is 4 years old and has no problems running Skyrim on max resolution, Crysis, Fallout, or ANY other modern game.*


*
*
Again, misunderstood comment.  I've been a Network Administrator and IT manager for many years and a great deal of the career is nothing but dealing with equipment upgrades and replacement due to obsolescence.   I'm referring more specifically to the mobile GPU inside a laptop.  Unlike a computer, you can't change them out, so depending on how powerful it was when it was purchased, a user may only get a couple years out of it before a game comes out that it has trouble with.  Yes... you can get more if you bought a good one, same as on the PC side of things - just depends largely on the quality of the original system purchased, which is why I chose an average of 2 years.  As with all things in life, you get what you pay for.

Anyway, with the rude counters and such, I'll not comment further - apologies to Greg for the unintended post derailment. :/


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## greg-the-fox (Jun 5, 2012)

Jaxinc said:


> Desktops will ALWAYS have more power than a laptop given the same parts, and will ALWAYS be cheaper, this is a given. Us car guys have a saying "You have to pay if you want to play"



Yes exactly. I am only concerned with price and practicality. I am sure you could get a laptop that would power the large hadron collider, and that's lovely and all, but unless I can fit it into a backpack and it costs less than a semester at community college, I don't care. This thread has derailed and unless anyone has anything of value to add, I think it would be best if it was closed.



Runefox said:


> Getting back to OP, do you really need a PC? If you had your heart set on a laptop, a new 15" MacBook Pro might be a better way to go overall if you're already familiar with Mac OS. You can run Windows either via Boot Camp or Parallels, and with a RAM upgrade



I've already done that with my current computer, I'm currently running Windows 7 with a Boot Camp partition, and I've installed 3rd party ram (increased from 2GB to 4, made a huge difference) But on this 250 GB hard drive, it's pretty damn cramped...
And I would love one of the new Macbook Pros that are coming out later this year, super high res screen, Ivy bridge processor, seamless trackpad. Serious want. Hell I would love a 12 core Mac Pro with 64 gigs of ram and one of those thousand dollar 27" thunderbolt displays. But since I'm NOT filthy rich and in the business of throwing away money for shiny status symbols that cost as much as cars... yeah I'll just get a PC :V I may get a Macbook Air or something if I get some money, who knows. I'm only really attached to Apple because of the OS, and the appearance of their products, I admit. I'm becoming increasingly disgusted by the company though, and I don't really want to buy their products anymore. Yes, I believe I need a PC. I hate restarting to use Boot Camp, and I hate my hardware's power being limited by Parallels' overhead.

I'm familiar enough for Windows and I need it for the Autodesk software. I want to get hired in the architecture industry and I want to be using the industry standard, Windows. Yes they do make the software for Mac but it's not the same and AutoCAD for example is missing almost all of its features... it's a really trimmed down version. Actually being able to play games doesn't hurt either. There's very little I can do on a Mac that I can't do on a PC, just a few programs like Logic Studio, and I'm considering switching to Ableton Live anyway, which is cross platform.


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 5, 2012)

Video cards are going to be a consideration depending on how important time is. I have an entry level Quadro specifically because I do some of the stuff you mentioned and waiting for things to render can be a pain. I also like how quickly my layers load up (the thumbs in the layers) for PS.

However, Quadros really aren't for gaming neither are the Firepros. They're meant to give you the best, and other graphics cards are meant to give you the "Quickest" like for gaming frame rates. 

http://amzn.com/B000GQMHBI is a nice case. 
650-750 watts are good enough
Whether you need an Intel or AMD is debatable - I know people like the hyperthreading that Intel has. 
It's just how "urgent" you need things to process, like I said with the graphics cards.
I tend to like Gigabyte Motherboards because of the amount you get for the price, but Asus boards are also fine. You just want to see what kind of sound each carries if that's a primary concern.

DDR3 ram for 16 gbs is now under 100 dollars so a good boost for your machine.

The other thing you may want to consider is if you're going to use an SSD driver for booting/OS and a SATA to store your data. Also don't defrag an SSD drive - good way to kill them (not to mention completely unnecessary) 

Type of Monitor is important for the kind of work you do. Most panels are TN, cheap good for gaming etc. IPS however good for photography, and illustration. Most illustrators are happy enough with an eIPS panel (economic one) though sIPS tend to be the best ones. Your images don't "Black out" as you move around. Downside is that some people complain about the frame rates. If you're doing art related stuff go with at least a 22" monitor 1920x1080 resolution minimum. 

Now if you're not doing gaming that Frame rates are important, you may want to consider the graphics cards I have mentioned


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## Jaxinc (Jun 6, 2012)

Runefox said:


> ITT:
> 
> Bottom line: Gaming laptops are stuffed with more crap than they should be for their size. They're usually heavily proprietary, and tend to have far more problems due to the amount of power draw and heat that's inherent in the setup. They can't be easily upgraded beyond RAM + HDD, and their cost is far greater than a comparable gaming desktop, monitor included. At best, they're a solution for a dorm room gamer who hasn't got room for a tower or has to bring their behemoth of a computer from place to place often (in which case, your poor shoulders). At worst, they're a gargantuan waste of money that sell based on the fact that they have the term "gaming" slapped on them.


Yes and no, you get what you pay for as I said. If you buy something for 1-2k as a claimed gaming laptop then expect power issues and lack of ability to upgrade. This is also why companies like Sager, Falcon, ect... allow you to pick which components you want and do not want.




> Bullshit. Put a USB 3.0 or Firewire 800 card in your laptop. Oh, wait, your shiny new laptop doesn't have a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot? Nobody's been using those for years? Okay then. Put a new video card in there. What's that? You're limited to whatever three or four cards Alienware or whoever decided to manufacture for that model? That's too bad. What about a RAID 1 mirror of 2TB drives alongside your system drives for storage? Oh? You don't have room for more than two drives? Damn. Guess there are things that towers CAN do that laptops can't.


DELLIANWARE doesn't make shit anymore, not since Dell bought out Alienware and their hardware went to shit. Just want to make that abundantly clear since you state Alienware repeatedly.

Laptops are now coming out with USB 3.0 and my laptop has a firewire connection... that I never use.

Hard drive capacity depends on the brand really, Clevo and Sager are the only ones I know of that do 3+ hard drives to a laptop. Mine has 3 drive bays with a RAID card. Regardless I'd still rely on a standalone RAID station versus a desktop in RAID config.




> I can't think of a single laptop that makes use of a desktop i5 or i7 processor. Check any high-end gaming laptops and tell me what the CPU model number is. If it ends with "M", well, guess you've got a mobile processor that's cranked down to save on power and heat output.


You missed my point entirely. The comment was regarding that laptops use low wattage or powered CPUs do to power consumption, but high end gaming laptops like mine are capable of running up to a 95w CPU which is the SAME as a desktop equivalent i7(95w OEM), but you ARE correct in the fact it runs a 'mobile' processor, but as to being cranked down it depends on what you get, *MOST* are dumbed down from the factory.



> Bullshit. Your GPU can be replaced... By one of three or four options specifically designed for your laptop. There is no connection standard for GPU's in a laptop, so you're limited to whatever proprietary bullshit Alienware or whoever makes the laptop decided to offer. And good luck getting a new motherboard to upgrade to the shiny new CPU series that will come out in a year's time.


Wrong...

Like on desktops with PCI, PCI Express, PCI Express x16, ect... Laptops(HIGHER END ONES) are equipped with MXM cards(Dellianware only RECENTLY started using MXM cards) which you could say are the split image of desktop's PCI cards. As long as the card is the same generation MXM(2.1, 3.0) you can install it granted a bios flash and new graphics driver. I have about 8 different cards I can put into my laptop, with the best option being the 280GTX 1024mb card for 500 dollars, versus a 9800GTX for 800...




> Okay, but I can slap a new video card in my PC for around $300 and get back up to speed, while an obsolete gaming laptop needs to be entirely replaced for ~$1500+. Whoops. Also, laaaawl "max resolution".


Wrong again? Average of 500 dollars for a new mobile GPU, less if you find one used off a laptop forum. I have found 280GTX cards for as low as 150 bucks. Resolution is dependent on the monitor and GPU... I can easily run past 1920x1200 IF I wanted to on an external monitor, but I don't know why in gods name you'd want the resolution any higher outside of bragging rights.

Now the only reason your price would be so high is if someone bought a POS with an integrated GPU.



> None of that even considers that gaming wasn't the focus of the OP.


No the OP was into computer assisted design(aka CAD) which is highly dependent on a GPU and processor, which means a high end gaming laptop since middle to low end ones will not be able to handle rendering of high poly count meshes. I'm a mechanical engineer and know quite well about what he was asking about.



> Again, misunderstood comment.  I've been a Network Administrator and IT  manager for many years and a great deal of the career is nothing but  dealing with equipment upgrades and replacement due to obsolescence.    I'm referring more specifically to the mobile GPU inside a laptop.   Unlike a computer, you can't change them out, so depending on how  powerful it was when it was purchased, a user may only get a couple  years out of it before a game comes out that it has trouble with.   Yes... you can get more if you bought a good one, same as on the PC side  of things - just depends largely on the quality of the original system  purchased, which is why I chose an average of 2 years.  As with all  things in life, you get what you pay for.


As I stated in my post, if you read it, my GPUs are completely capable of being upgraded, replaced, removed... I also got 4 years out of my mobile GPUs before they needed to be replaced, which is a tall order for a Nvidia 8800 in any respect since the desktop version had an average life of 1-2 years top before burning out from the excessive heat output, that is of course if the user didn't get frustrated with the pitiful driver support for this series card and upgraded to a newer 9800 with better drivers.


> What I'm trying to clarify is that you cannot ever have a laptop that  will match a PC when it comes to the "gaming" sense of performance.   GPUs for PCs can simply take more power and have more cooling than  inside of a laptop.


This part I agreed on.

Ultimately it seems the OP doesn't want to break the bank on a high end laptop(average of 4 grand configured), so building a desktop for a fraction of the price is his best bet.


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 6, 2012)

Jaxinc said:


> Wrong again? Average of 500 dollars for a new mobile GPU, less if you find one used off a laptop forum. I have found 280GTX cards for as low as 150 bucks. Resolution is dependent on the monitor and GPU... I can easily run past 1920x1200 IF I wanted to on an external monitor, but I don't know why in gods name you'd want the resolution any higher outside of bragging rights.



No. Screen real estate is a real issue. Especially for using certain programs on the illustration side. Any program the takes up part of your real estate with controls to work on art is a problem actually.  The higher the resolution the better actually. This isn't just due to the panels, layers and all that stuff, but if you're working in illustration or on an object a zoomed in state is not desirable - you want to look at the image as a whole as much as possible. Sometimes the navigator doesn't cut it either. 

Runefox's point about USB 3.0 was that the components are harder to swap out. If you got a Laptop without USB 2.0 and realize you want it later...well....


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## Runefox (Jun 6, 2012)

Ha, GTX280 for $500 on eBay. Scuse me while I go grab a desktop GTX680 by a reliable OEM for the same price.

The fact that you're limited to that, and that you have a _whopping_ 8 cards to choose from, is exactly my point regarding MXM.


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## Jaxinc (Jun 7, 2012)

Yes because someone running an older motherboard on a desktop wouldn't be able to run a newer PCI Express x16 either would they regardless of how many cards they could run right? My motherboard is 4 years old and only compatible with MXM 2.1, newer MXM 3.0 boards have a larger choice of cards available. Just like newer ATX boards with PCI x16 boards... your argument is invalid outside of price.


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## Runefox (Jun 9, 2012)

Jaxinc said:


> Yes because someone running an *older motherboard on a desktop wouldn't be able to run a newer PCI Express x16 either would they* regardless of how many cards they could run right? My motherboard is 4 years old and only compatible with MXM 2.1, newer MXM 3.0 boards have a larger choice of cards available. Just like newer ATX boards with PCI x16 boards... your argument is invalid outside of price.


Newer desktop cards actually do work in older PCI-E slots, champ. Try harder next time.


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## AshleyAshes (Jun 11, 2012)

Jaxinc said:


> I have a Falcon Northwest DRX, and at 15lbs fully loaded it's less than slim... and the battery life average is 45 minutes on power save settings. However it has 3 hard drives, 2 graphics cards and 4 60mm fans running at all times along with the 17" screen.



I'm having difficulty comprehending what kind of madness it takes to *brag* about spending $6K on a laptop that weighs more than a bag of potatos and has battery life that you could measure with a stop watch.


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## Jaxinc (Jun 13, 2012)

Whose bragging?

As for madness it's called needing a portable desktop with the power and mobility that 90% of laptops 4 years ago did NOT offer. I NEEDED a laptop that could handle nearly 24/7 use without issues. I had gone through SEVERAL 'cheap' laptops over the course of a year and obvious spending the money on one that would last was better than replacing a unit every 4-6 months from a major hardware failure(motherboard, power supply).

Sad truth is I could get the same performance now for about 4 grand.



> Newer desktop cards actually do work in older PCI-E slots, champ. Try harder next time.


You're funny. Will they work, yes, at the same speed, no. Sorry I guess I should have said PCI instead of PCI-E since that would have been more blunt.


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## Runefox (Jun 14, 2012)

Jaxinc said:


> You're funny. Will they work, yes, at the same speed, no. Sorry I guess I should have said PCI instead of PCI-E since that would have been more blunt.


I'm not sure you're aware how fast PCI-E is, nor what that means.

1.0 was 2.5GT/sec / 250MB/sec per lane (x16 = ~4GB/sec)
2.0 was 5.0GT/sec / 500MB/sec per lane (x16 = ~8GB/sec)
3.0 is 8.0GT/sec (supposedly roughly double 2.0 in theory)
4.0 is to be 16GT/sec

Currently, PCI-E 2.0 is not saturated by any card on the market today (thus, a PCI-E 3.0 card will not be limited by a 2.0 slot). Considering that the main problem with using 1.0 versus a card that theoretically uses all of 2.0's bandwidth is in transfer rate alone, the computational power of the card is still the same as it ever was. Streaming data (texture fill rate, new geometry, etc) will suffer to a theoretical 1/2 speed, but overall computational performance (shaders, overall scene, etc) will not be limited. It's a similar situation to running an AGP 8x card in a 4x slot - Performance will suffer, but only slightly. Running with the AGP example, a Radeon X1950 AGP 8x card won't run at the far lower speed of a GeForce MX 400 AGP 4x card if placed in a 4x slot, for example.

In either case...



> Sad truth is I could get the same performance now for about 4 grand.



And you can put together a kickass desktop for $1k that would beat the pants off it.


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## AshleyAshes (Jun 14, 2012)

I remember when I had a Radeon 9600 AGP. :3

Sad, now even the AMD APU built into my HTPC/Server probably makes the 9600 look like an antique.


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## greg-the-fox (Jun 14, 2012)

Okay so since this thread has gone really off topic and you all seem to _love_ posting here...



Runefox said:


> And you can put together a kickass desktop for $1k that would beat the pants off it.



How about this? I would overclock everything.
I'm having second thoughts about that case, but I can't really find a better one for the price. If I spent a LOT more I would looooove to have this one. (it's also massive, would the size be overkill for my setup?) I'd have plenty of room for airflow though, which I'm worried about with the Antec case, with the graphics card and heatsink getting in the way. It could also handle any possible upgrades and I could keep it forever. The Phantom is also a possibility but I'm not a huge fan of the styling (I'm like the only person)
I also would love to have a 256GB SSD, but the cost is just ridiculous.
Also is my power supply a high enough wattage?

Is it best to buy this stuff incrementally whenever parts go on sale, or all at once? I could wait until Black Friday or something and try to buy everything at once for some ridiculously awesome price (before all the parts sell out in like 5 minutes)


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## AshleyAshes (Jun 14, 2012)

You are paying way too much for a 1TB drive.  I've seen them on sale for $75 on some Canadian eTailers.  I can get a Seagate 7200rpm 2TB for $99 at NCIX this week even. o.o


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## greg-the-fox (Jun 14, 2012)

AshleyAshes said:


> You are paying way too much for a 1TB drive.  I've seen them on sale for $75 on some Canadian eTailers.  I can get a Seagate 7200rpm 2TB for $99 at NCIX this week even. o.o



Are they SATA III though? I can't find any 1TB 7200 RPM drives for under $99 on Newegg.


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## Jaxinc (Jun 15, 2012)

Runefox said:


> And you can put together a kickass desktop for $1k that would beat the pants off it.[/COLOR]



Actually about 600 would be more than enough lol


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## AshleyAshes (Jun 15, 2012)

greg-the-fox said:


> Are they SATA III though? I can't find any 1TB 7200 RPM drives for under $99 on Newegg.



Yes, I'm not sure about Western Digital, but Seagate's desktop HDDs are all SATA3 now.

Anyway, you may want to considder using a site that offers price matching.  Here in Canada I use NCIX, I can then use PriceMatch.ca to search better prices at different Canadian eTailers, then NCIX will match the best price.  NCIX thusly earns my loyalty and I get the best possible price that I can.  NCIX has a US operation but I can't vouch for their quality in the US but they're great in Canada, there could be a better site that offers price matching in the US instead of NCIX.

http://www.ncix.us/
http://www.pricebat.com/

However, looking at the prices, it seems that NCIX and PriceBat in Canada are yeilding better prices.  Their could be a better search website for US customers too.


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