# Criticizing furries for the sake of self-improvement



## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

This was pretty much inspired by the whole Goons vs. Furries debacle. In case any of you are unaware, SA made a fairly successful thread where they "draw furries", be it weird as fuck rarely seen anthropomorphizations, "ironic" furry art, or pictures lambasting the furry community. In response, a thread was created on FA. But instead of furries hitting back, despite the fact that furry is largely an art community, the thread got maybe ten submissions before sputtering out into stupid argument.

However, I realize that I did not contribute to this thread myself. This is partially because I lack artistic talent, but really, that shouldn't have stopped me. If anything, I think the reason that thread wasn't funny at all, is because the funny members of the furry fandom frequent this forum in small numbers, and were repressed by the mouth-breathers that soon flooded the thread with their raffling off of 'hilarious' catch phrases they picked up from 4chan's "lol ex dee random" board. The few which are funny realize that they will get nothing in return for their contributions, and as a result, end up contributing nothing at all.

Although while it is true that everyone who regularly uses internet forums is a nerd in some way, the goons did manage to illustrate quite clearly that while they may be nerds, the average goon has more redeeming qualities than the average furry, on the basis that they're marginally funny, and can act level headed and somewhat mature (did I mention their thread stayed on track?). In addition, they managed to bring up several points in the thread which observed at what point does furry become creepy and unacceptable, which unsurprisingly settled on: "when it becomes unironically sexual", mainly since furries are rarely ever proud of this aspect, or when they are, they are disgusting, sad individuals in real life (rarely have I ever seen a furry be proud of their sexual involvement with the fandom and not be a terrible person as a result of other factors).

So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)? Sure, that question is asked constantly, but nobody really delves into the nitty gritty of it. I want everyone to be dead honest, and put their feelings out there. Even if you're one of the ones who typically paints themselves as a normal individual, I want you all to explain your history with this fandom, and to leave as few leaves unturned as possible. Hell, you might even discover something about yourself in the process, who knows. Regardless, post away, and try not to fuck up this thread by shitposting everywhere.


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## Tycho (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)?



"Don't really know" and "Why not"


EDIT: Elaborating.

I don't really know why I "got into" furry.  I look back and I ask myself "was it the art?" I don't think it was.  I haven't ever been able to draw worth a damn. I wasn't an immigrant from the anime or comic-book fandoms - I despised what I knew of anime at the time, and didn't care about most comics.  I wasn't a pornhound.  I hadn't ever even really been *into* art.  "It's there, it's pretty.  Whoopee" was my take on most things artistic.  Occasionally there was something that did grab hold of my eye and refuse to let go, but such pieces of art were rare and had little to do with one another anyway.

As for the "why not": well, for all the eye-rolling rage-inducing face-palming shit the fandom squeezes out constantly, I still find it kinda amusing.  Some of the people are nice.  Some of the art's kinda nice.  Some of the porn is kinda nice.  Besides, if I "quit" the fandom (lol), I'd have that much less to bitch about.  And I love bitching about things.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Originally for the art, yes I was that naive at the time.


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## Takun (Jan 4, 2010)

Because I'm gay, true facts.  Was nice finding a place where I wasn't such a huge minority.  That online a lot of places on the internet, being gay wasn't subject to mass ridicule.

And I liek kitties.  I have lots of them.  :3c


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## Aden (Jan 4, 2010)

I think the fandom is a fun place, to put it simply. Sure, you might have to weed out the creepy fuckers, but underneath the layer of crap I've met some really awesome people. 

Also, and I'm not joking when I say this, cons are really fun events. They're like a manifestation of why I'm still here. It's people letting themselves go and having fun with no obfuscation or preoccupation. It's the celebration of a shared interest with no mind paid to social normalcies, and I like that. There is also a higher sense of acceptance here, as clichÃ© as it is to say (especially with homosexuality, et al).

So why the furry fandom as opposed to a different fandom? It's tough to say. Obviously I enjoy seeing art of animal-head people as well as drawing it from time to time. I prefer seeing and drawing furry characters because they're just so damn expressive as compared to their human counterparts. I'm not sure why they strike such a good chord in my brain, but they do. And the best part? The furry fandom is entirely fan-dependent. There's no external source of material which fans must rely on, such as the Star Trek fandom or anime fandoms. I think the sense of community is stronger because of this.

Lastly, I just like having an anthro avatar as my online representation. Might be because my mind is all floaty and idealistic.

To reply to another part of your post, I think the SA thread was more on-topic because there is a proportionally high amount of idiots on FAF. :V

\Pardon the scatterbrainedness, I'm tired


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## FoxyAreku (Jan 4, 2010)

The art, all my friends, and because it feels right for me.


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Originally for the art, yes I was that naive at the time.





			
				FoxyAreku said:
			
		

> The art, all my friends, and because it feels right for me.



Mind elaborating some more? After all, I didn't make this thread to get the responses you'd find in the other "lol y u furry" threads.



Takumi_L said:


> Because I'm gay, true facts.  Was nice finding a place where I wasn't such a huge minority.  That online a lot of places on the internet, being gay wasn't subject to mass ridicule.
> 
> And I liek kitties.  I have lots of them.  :3c



This was probably one of the reasons I was attracted at first too. I figured out I was attracted to guys when I was 12 years old (a scary time to make this realization, obviously), and I found that outside the middle school playground, furry was the best place I could be open about my bisexuality, and not feel like I should be ashamed. Of course, furry porn was what made me realize I also like dicks, so I guess it's something of a double-edged sword.

Also yes, cats are wonderful. I have five, and they're all related by blood, it is fantastico.


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## Takun (Jan 4, 2010)

Aden said:


> I think the fandom is a fun place, to put it simply. Sure, you might have to weed out the creepy fuckers, but underneath the layer of crap I've met some really awesome people.
> 
> Also, and I'm not joking when I say this, cons are really fun events. They're like a manifestation of why I'm still here. It's people letting themselves go and having fun with no obfuscation or preoccupation. It's the celebration of a shared interest with no mind paid to social normalcies, and I like that. There is also a higher sense of acceptance here, as clichÃ© as it is to say (especially with homosexuality, et al).
> 
> ...




Cons are fun except when guys in full leather bondage parade around town associating them with us.  




Ben said:


> This was probably one of the reasons I was attracted at first too. I figured out I was attracted to guys when I was 12 years old (a scary time to make this realization, obviously), and I found that outside the middle school playground, furry was the best place I could be open about my bisexuality, and not feel like I should be ashamed. Of course, furry porn was what made me realize I also like dicks, so I guess it's something of a double-edged sword.
> 
> Also yes, cats are wonderful. I have five, and they're all related by blood, it is fantastico.



Yeah I found the porn shortly after too.  I liked the stories more than the visual porn.  I liked character development and there are so many high school love stories that I was drawn in.  I tried to read the straight stories but couldn't care less.  But luckily furry has like a bajillion more gay stories so yay.  I wasn't much involved til here.  I basically found a lot of people I like and stayed around.  Plus where else could I see Grimmywimmy?  O:


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## Aden (Jan 4, 2010)

Takumi_L said:


> Cons are fun except when guys in full leather bondage parade around town associating them with us.





Aden said:


> I think the fandom is a fun place, to put it simply. Sure, *you might have to weed out the creepy fuckers*, but underneath the layer of crap I've met some really awesome people.



:<

Then again, another reason I stick around is because furry drama is so goddamn delicious, and the creepy fuckers make that run.


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 4, 2010)

The majority of furries are incapabe of self-improvement.  If they were, they'd have learned WHY everyone made fun of the in high school and made adiquate changes to avoid being a target.  Instead they just remained losers and became losers for the rest of their lives.


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## FoxyAreku (Jan 4, 2010)

I really don't know what else to say besides that, my reasons are simple.

Though another big thing is I owe my entire life to being a furry pretty much, if I wasn't a furry I would have only 1/10th of the amount of IRL friends I do now due to my shy nature, and I would still be living with my mom instead of being out on my own. Just so many good things have happened to me in this fandom and I've met so many good people, it's not something I would ever abandon.



			
				aden said:
			
		

> Then again, another reason I stick around is because furry drama is so goddamn delicious, and the creepy fuckers make that run.



Why do people constantly link together furs and drama? I've never met ANY kind of fandom that doesn't have a large amount of it's members being defensive of the subject matter, if you go to a Star Trek convention for example and say Star Trek sucks, well, I don't think you'd come back alive.

No one likes having their hobby being insulted, unless they are the type who just don't care which are very few.


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> The majority of furries are incapabe of self-improvement.  If they were, they'd have learned WHY everyone made fun of the in high school and made adiquate changes to avoid being a target.  Instead they just remained losers and became losers for the rest of their lives.



That's nice, but I want to know about why _you're_ a furry.



			
				Aden said:
			
		

> A lot of words



This is the sort of detail I was looking for.

I haven't been to a con yet, but I very much want to go to Anthrocon this summer. However, my reason has ended up changing over the past few months, from hanging out with lots of people, to mainly hanging out with one of my best friend Shanelle. The people I've considered friends in this whole shebang has definitely morphed a lot in the past year, to the point where I'm not sure who I'll be staying with come June (Shanelle is under 18, and I don't know her other friends well enough to share a hotel room with them). I'm sure I'll work something out though.


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## Tycho (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> Pfft pfft pft PFFT pffft pfft PFFFFFFFFFFFFT pfft pffffft pfft pft pft pft PFFFT



What I heard.


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## FoxyAreku (Jan 4, 2010)

oh yeah, that's something else.

The cons are freaking awesome.

But just a note, don't go to AC for your first time.


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## Aden (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> I haven't been to a con yet, but I very much want to go to Anthrocon this summer. However, my reason has ended up changing over the past few months, from hanging out with lots of people, to mainly hanging out with one of my best friend Shanelle. The people I've considered friends in this whole shebang has definitely morphed a lot in the past year, to the point where I'm not sure who I'll be staying with come June (Shanelle is under 18, and I don't know her other friends well enough to share a hotel room with them). I'm sure I'll work something out though.



Well you pretty much have to be going with one or more friends or knowing others that are also going, otherwise the con becomes a lot less fun. There are a ton of people who go to AC (I might be going this summer holy shit) so see if you can meet up with anyone.


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

Aden said:


> Well you pretty much have to be going with one or more friends or knowing others that are also going, otherwise the con becomes a lot less fun. There are a ton of people who go to AC (I might be going this summer holy shit) so see if you can meet up with anyone.



I know about half a dozen to a dozen furfags that live in my general area, so this is definitely feasible. I'll just have to make sure not to neglect them in favor of my bestie. :V




FoxyAreku said:


> But just a note, don't go to AC for your first time.



I live in Pennsylvania, so it's the only logical choice, really. I understand what you mean, given the gigantic size of it, but I can adapt just fine to hectic environments, worry not.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jan 4, 2010)

Mostly what Aden said, though I've never been to a con (yet), though I won't knock it 'til I (have the luxury to) try it. It's almost entirely because of the uncanny valley. What I really am drawn to are certain ideas and types of people, and anthros can embody those better for me than human characters. They can represent certain things just by virtue of being a certain species, IMO, better than a human character who is otherwise exactly the same.

That's why I don't think the sexual attraction is inherently wrong or abnormal, and I really wish a lot of those "goons" and "anons" and whatnot could see that. But then I guess if your main reason for being is to alleviate/deflect/rationalize the guilt and shame you feel for your own "nerdiness", whatever that entails, unless you can somehow get over that, you'll always be too stuck inside yourself to see another's point of view.

That being said, I also wish a lot of furries would learn to see that everything they love about anthros, and everything they want to be as one isn't a fantasy at all. It's in them. They just need to overcome their own insecurities and some of the other flaws they have, and get over their fear of intimacy/relationships with other humans. Sometimes when I'm interacting with people, could be anybody but it's especially true of people I'm really comfortable/friendly with, I'll "see" them as an anthro. It's usually only for a brief moment, when they assume a certain posture, make a certain facial expression or move a certain way. But my mind, all on its own, will sort of superimpose a cartoon furry character over them being the exact same way. That's included mates, and trust me, sex with a person like that doesn't require a fursuit for it to feel just like you're making love to your ideal mate.

I fear for any circle of "geeks" who get too comfortable with their (rather illusory) notion that they're somehow more immune to "whatever" than the next bunch. I've seen _a lot_ of cliques come and go, and some of them not before damn near everyone involved is in therapy (or should be). Most of them thought themselves superior to/more stable than both furries _and_ SA forum goons though, so who knows. Maybe being sandwiched in between two arbitrarily defined levels of loserdome somehow creates some balance for them that the other levels don't have.


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> That's nice, but I want to know about why _you're_ a furry.


 
I like being in a fandom of social losers who don't understand the basics of personal hygene or what actions are socially acceptable. It makes it easy to feel superior, ya know, like beating up a class of Kindergartners.

I like the idea of taking the childish 80's notion of anthropomorphic animals and turning them into something more grown up, cynical and mature. Similar to how from the 80's onward, comic books grew up and got a lot darker. In the 60's Batman used to catch The Joker by having him fall into an open man hole, now that stuff is dark and cynical as hell and it's a lot more awesome.  A lot of furries don't share this notion, which is probably why I think it's cool to blow off some anthro's tail in an IED blast in Iraq, coming home and learning a new center of balance, while majority of other furries would see that and go 'OH DEAR GOD, NOT HIS MURRY PURRY TAIL!!!'.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> Mind elaborating some more? After all, I didn't make this thread to get the responses you'd find in the other "lol y u furry" threads.


I was into anime extremely then found furry through 4chan, found the artist who did this amazing drawing, they had more furry artists on their friends list, watched those artists then.  Eventually furry artists took up 3/4 of my watches, I later grew out of my weaboo-ness and realized most of the anime artists in my watch were terrible who just continuously used dodge and burn.  Started listening to ACTFur on air, found FA, then found ED went through a month of furry pride, afterwords went through a week of hating furries, went through a half month of saying "I'm not furry I'm anthro", came back to the fandom because I realized I'm a total furry and denying it is no use.


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## Xipoid (Jan 4, 2010)

I'm here because of the increased freedoms present in animal based anthropomorphic characters. You can explore aspects not commonly available to humans and indulge in fictitious worlds that transcend reality. It's always fun to create someone or something with an inherent cultural difference not always bound by their geographic location or upbringing. I find the childish nature commonly portrayed by anthropomorphic animals to be unappealing, and here I may find refuge in the gritty, darker world we (I) build for ourselves and numerous purposes.


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## FoxyAreku (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> I like being in a fandom of social losers who don't understand the basics of personal hygene or what actions are socially acceptable. It makes it easy to feel superior, ya know, like beating up a class of Kindergartners.



Are we in the same fandom? I've met hundreds of furs offline in my area and at conventions and have met maybe 5 who fit your slashed out description here. >_>

Unless your just being sarcastic and I didn't catch it..


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## Aden (Jan 4, 2010)

FoxyAreku said:


> Why do people constantly link together furs and drama? I've never met ANY kind of fandom that doesn't have a large amount of it's members being defensive of the subject matter, if you go to a Star Trek convention for example and say Star Trek sucks, well, I don't think you'd come back alive.
> 
> No one likes having their hobby being insulted, unless they are the type who just don't care which are very few.



I'm not talking about the kind of drama where someone goes "haha furries r dumb" and the furries go "no we arnt u troll gtfo". It just seems that personal drama is richer here (see: Allan, Anailaigh).

But if you want to talk about this further then you can make a new thread. I know the OP wants this to stay on topic.


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## FoxyAreku (Jan 4, 2010)

Aden said:


> I'm not talking about the kind of drama where someone goes "haha furries r dumb" and the furries go "no we arnt u troll gtfo". It just seems that personal drama is richer here (see: Allan, Anailaigh).
> 
> But if you want to talk about this further then you can make a new thread. I know the OP wants this to stay on topic.



That's fine. Just wanted to know what you meant, I can kinda understand now. Never seen a fandom with something like the chewfox incident and similar stuff before.


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

FoxyAreku said:
			
		

> Why do people constantly link together furs and drama? I've never met ANY kind of fandom that doesn't have a large amount of it's members being defensive of the subject matter, if you go to a Star Trek convention for example and say Star Trek sucks, well, I don't think you'd come back alive.
> 
> No one likes having their hobby being insulted, unless they are the type who just don't care which are very few.



Since a main proponent of furry is expressing one's self through an idealized avatar (second only to weeaboos), the amount of drama is usually significantly higher, since it's hard to get much distance without finding someone who hides behind their internet persona, in attempt to get away from their situation in reality. Star Trek/Wars nerds can do this too, it's just that furries have a sturdier hut to hide in, regardless of the hut being constructed from shit bricks.



			
				AshleyAshes said:
			
		

> I like the idea of taking the childish 80's notion of anthropomorphic animals and turning them into something more grown up, cynical and mature. Similar to how from the 80's onward, comic books grew up and got a lot darker. In the 60's Batman used to catch The Joker by having him fall into an open man hole, now that stuff is dark and cynical as hell and it's a lot more awesome. A lot of furries don't share this notion, which is probably why I think it's cool to blow off some anthro's tail in an IED blast in Iraq, coming home and learning a new *center of balance*, while majority of other furries would see that and go 'OH DEAR GOD, NOT HIS MURRY PURRY TAIL!!!'.



You lost me at the bolded part.



			
				Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> That's why I don't think the sexual attraction is inherently wrong or abnormal, and I really wish a lot of those "goons" and "anons" and whatnot could see that. But then I guess if your main reason for being is to alleviate/deflect/rationalize the guilt and shame you feel for your own "nerdiness", whatever that entails, unless you can somehow get over that, you'll always be too stuck inside yourself to see another's point of view.



If furries could more convincingly sell the idea that furry porn isn't really that weird, there would probably be less scrutiny towards it. Stress on the "less" part, as opposed to "no."


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> You lost me at the bolded part.


 
Take a five foot, eight inch tall anthropomorphic snow leopard, then blow his 25 pound, 3-4 foot long tall tail off with high explosives and HUMVEE shrapnel.  The center of balance that you've known for your body for the last 20 or so years is now radically different making physical recovery complicated.


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## FoxyAreku (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> Since a main proponent of furry is expressing one's self through an idealized avatar (second only to weeaboos), the amount of drama is usually significantly higher, since it's hard to get much distance without finding someone who hides behind their internet persona, in attempt to get away from their situation in reality. Star Trek/Wars nerds can do this too, it's just that furries have a sturdier hut to hide in, regardless of the hut being constructed from shit bricks.



Interesting take on it. I'll keep that in mind.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> If furries could more convincingly sell the idea that furry porn isn't really that weird, there would probably be less scrutiny towards it. Stress on the "less" part, as opposed to "no."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPAARLt4iMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwmoCzbbWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS2d6efvysQ
I honestly think those three videos should be the bible or something of furry, require all the new guys to watch this and problem solved, either that or dragoneer put it in link of the day that way people would actually watch it.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jan 4, 2010)

Xipoid said:


> I'm here because of the increased freedoms present in animal based anthropomorphic characters. You can explore aspects not commonly available to humans and indulge in fictitious worlds that transcend reality. It's always fun to create someone or something with an inherent cultural difference not always bound by their geographic location or upbringing. I find the childish nature commonly portrayed by anthropomorphic animals to be unappealing, and here I may find refuge in the gritty, darker world we (I) build for ourselves and numerous purposes.






AshleyAshes said:


> I like the idea of taking the childish 80's notion of anthropomorphic animals and turning them into something more grown up, cynical and mature. Similar to how from the 80's onward, comic books grew up and got a lot darker. In the 60's Batman used to catch The Joker by having him fall into an open man hole, now that stuff is dark and cynical as hell and it's a lot more awesome.  A lot of furries don't share this notion, which is probably why I think it's cool to blow off some anthro's tail in an IED blast in Iraq, coming home and learning a new center of balance, while majority of other furries would see that and go 'OH DEAR GOD, NOT HIS MURRY PURRY TAIL!!!'.



These are good points. I think if you entirely "grow out of" something that appealed to you for very good reasons along with all the childish reasons, something's amiss. We have a fandom of virtually entirely fan-created content on which to base it because there isn't exactly a huge wealth of grown-up anthro stuff being created in the mainstream, or even the indie scene. I honestly believe the furry fandom could (and will) one day be the launch-pad of viable professionals catering to that market, though it's hard for anyone not to throw in the towel staying niche for too long without throwing in the towel without some crossover success.

It's sort've like when I watched The Wrestler last night and realized I never really stopped being a wrestling fan, but I _definitely_ did grow out of being able to rationalize people living on the fringes of society, purposely mutilating, poisoning and _killing_ themselves so that _I_ can be entertained. That business needs to change, a lot, before it can ever be accepted by mainstream society for more than brief, several-year long periods once every couple of years when a new crop of youngsters latches onto it, only to grow jaded and sometimes even repulsed that they were entertained by that.

Similarly, we could stand to change our business a lot, for our own good if no one elses.



			
				FoxyAreku said:
			
		

> Are we in the same fandom? I've met hundreds of furs offline in my area and at conventions and have met maybe 5 who fit your slashed out description here. >_>
> 
> Unless your just being sarcastic and I didn't catch it..



AshleyAshes seems to take any and every opportunity to basically shout from rooftops "look how not-a-freak I am!" Possibly more than anyone else, we all see right through it, very clearly.


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

Just so everyone knows, it's perfectly fine if people diverge to different topics. I'm more or less wary of the idiots who come in, and turn a thread into an opportunity to flirt with each other/act like typical furries.



			
				CannonFodder said:
			
		

> I was into anime extremely then found furry through 4chan, found the artist who did this amazing drawing, they had more furry artists on their friends list, watched those artists then. Eventually furry artists took up 3/4 of my watches, I later grew out of my weaboo-ness and realized most of the anime artists in my watch were terrible who just continuously used dodge and burn. Started listening to ACTFur on air, found FA, then found ED went through a month of furry pride, afterwords went through a week of hating furries, went through a half month of saying "I'm not furry I'm anthro", came back to the fandom because I realized I'm a total furry and denying it is no use.



I can relate to this heavily. About 2-3 years ago, I was an admin (or sysop) on ED, and would constantly either write articles about furries, or manage many of the articles about them. I pretty much had this giant folder of furry fapfodder, while swearing up and down that furries were the scum of the earth. I only ended up "admitting" to being a furry to people outside the fandom (but still online people), after an old friend of mine convinced me to be "open about it", as if it were the same thing as being gay. Eventually I was pressured into making a murrsona (the chinchilla thing over there <--). 

These days, I just retain my murrsona so my friends can use it in drawings, not so I can use it as a sexual outlet. Although having furry porn is not necessarily shameful, as it is a fetish like anything else, I feel no desire to make it a true part of who I am. This may very well be insecurity talking, but regardless, I don't feel as though it's worth the effort to justify the reasons for why I masturbate to things, just like I don't feel the need to let the world know what I masturbate to.



			
				AshleyAshes said:
			
		

> Take a five foot, eight inch tall anthropomorphic snow leopard, then blow his 25 pound, 3-4 foot long tall tail off with high explosives and HUMVEE shrapnel. The center of balance that you've known for your body for the last 20 or so years is now radically different making physical recovery complicated



Oh okay, I thought "center of balance" was supposed to be some sort of psuedo-intelligent bullshit-ism. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Qoph (Jan 4, 2010)

I was drawing myself as a cat, writing storieis about me as a cat, pretending to be a cat since I was real little.  So that played a big part.

Also, how open the community is.  I don't need to worry about expressing homosexuality here, as opposed to pretty much anywhere else.  

Plus, my best friends are in this fandom.

And the porn.  Yeah, there's that too.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> If furries could more convincingly sell the idea that furry porn isn't really that weird, there would probably be less scrutiny towards it. Stress on the "less" part, as opposed to "no."



Actually I was thinking less porn and more real stories with more romance than sex, and leave the sex and porn to the fanboys since they create it even of shit they're not supposed to, but ok, whatevs.


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> If furries could more convincingly sell the idea that furry porn isn't really that weird, there would probably be less scrutiny towards it. Stress on the "less" part, as opposed to "no."


 
Furries can't successfully sell the idea of 'furry' because of all the screwed up furry porn.  If people could stop drawing dicks on EVERYTHING and instead commission awesome stuff like this, the furry fandom wouldn't have it's 'DICKS, DICKS EVERYWHERE' reputation in the FIRST place.  http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/AshleyAshes2/1247851653_kacey_rainy_day.jpg


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> Furries can't successfully sell the idea of 'furry' because of all the screwed up furry porn.  If people could stop drawing dicks on EVERYTHING and instead commission awesome stuff like this, the furry fandom wouldn't have it's 'DICKS, DICKS EVERYWHERE' reputation in the FIRST place.  http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/AshleyAshes2/1247851653_kacey_rainy_day.jpg



To be fair, the furry in that picture sticks out like a horridly sore thumb, and kind of drags down the overall quality of the piece. Would look a lot nicer without it, probably.

EDIT: Alright, it grows on me the more I look at it, but still.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> To be fair, the furry in that picture sticks out like a horridly sore thumb, and kind of drags down the overall quality of the piece. Would look a lot nicer without it, probably.
> 
> EDIT: Alright, it grows on me the more I look at it, but still.



Well, to be fair, it doesn't look like a place you'd expect furries to live. There's no broken windows, broken glass everywhere, people pissing on the stairs y'know they just don't care.


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> To be fair, the furry in that picture sticks out like a horridly sore thumb, and kind of drags down the overall quality of the piece. Would look a lot nicer without it, probably.
> 
> EDIT: Alright, it grows on me the more I look at it, but still.


 
Maybe you're just not used to seeing furry art without dicks? :V


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## Wolf-Bone (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> Maybe you're just not used to seeing furry art without dicks? :V



/thread

that's not a victory on your part, btw. at least not in this case.


----------



## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> Maybe you're just not used to seeing furry art without dicks? :V


Can't huff enough of that smoked sausage

But anyway, on the topic of furry art:

One of the posters in the SA thread brought up a point, about how furry art really isn't much better than the art other fandoms used to sustain themselves. Thought it was a pretty fair, if you ask me.



			
				Times said:
			
		

> They start from someone else's work and then emulate it in their own haphazard way - be it loony tunes, manga, another furry artist etc. It sounds weird to say this but almost every piece of furry art is instantly recognizable as 'furry' instead of just being anthropomorphic because it's basically the same drat thing over and over again. I always feel like 'gee I've seen this somewhere before. Oh, that's basically the sheriff of knottingham from robin hood and that other guy is a battletoad and that other one is apparently ripped off from some hollywood werewolf film. Except with different species and some rote attempts at shoehorning it into a different character. Yawn.'
> 
> It isn't just that though. There seems to be this detectable pandering undercurrent in it that gives a lot of even the most expressive-seeming furry art this slightly soulless quality to it that makes it more easily identifiable as furry.
> 
> The worst is when I see a furry artist who has obvious skill - but all their characters look like they have the same face and expression - the same character or two or three character types drawn over and over again with only cosmetic animal changes. Because you just know they'd shoot off light-years ahead of everyone else if they weren't letting furry hold them back.



What do you guys think of this criticism?


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## Isen (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry


I don't think I have ever called myself a furry per se.  That isn't to say I'm one of those people who has an FA account and posts on the forums but says, "WHAT!? A FURRY!? NOPE NOT ME I MEAN THE ART IS OKAY." I don't feel any need to claim myself as part of a group or subculture or whatever, so I don't. However, to use a cliche, if the boot fits.  If someone wants to call me a furry, I don't really care. I play video games but don't go around calling myself a gamer  Someone may say, "Oh shut up, you fit my definition, so you're a furry."  Okay, whatever, I don't mind if you consider me one. It's cool.



> (and more importantly, why are you still)? Sure, that question is asked constantly, but nobody really delves into the nitty gritty of it. I want everyone to be dead honest, and put their feelings out there. Even if you're one of the ones who typically paints themselves as a normal individual, I want you all to explain your history with this fandom, and to leave as few leaves unturned as possible.


I don't feel like my answer to "Why do I still find anthropomorphic animals interesting/entertaining/whatever?" is what you are looking for, so I'm going to interpret this question as, "Why am I still on FA?"  Posting here is pretty much the entirety of my involvement with the fandom. My FA page is just to index art I find interesting. There isn't even any porn. 

So why do I associate with this weird little subculture at all?

Right now I am not sure. I like who I am more or less, and I have practical plans for my own self-improvement over the course of this year.  I think I may be a worse person for my involvement here.  When I consider my ideal self, I don't really see, "Frequents a furry website," being something positive.  Yeah, I do like some people here.  However, I'm not sure that it's worth it. It's not just the disturbing amount of self-deception and delusions of grandeur.  It's not even the enabling and co-dependency that goes on here.  It's all that mixed in with the cynicism, the superiority complexes, the whole "look-at-me-I-don't-give-a-fuck-about-you-or-anything" attitudes.  I've seen them all over the internet, but never as bad as places like this (except maybe 4chan, which I don't visit for these reasons).  

I hate seeing self-deceived people embracing personal weaknesses as "quirks" and looking for affirmation for unhealthy life choices.  I also hate it when people think they are the brilliant Dr. Houses of the internet and go around patting themselves on their backs for finding increasingly "clever" ways to act like dicks. MAN I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYTHING OR ANYONE EVER HAVE I TOLD YOU HOW LITTLE I CARE BECAUSE I DON'T CARE AT ALL YOU KNOW THAT RIGHT. RESPECT MY GIMMICK I AM INTERNET COOL YOU KNOW.

I'm not saying I'm perfect.  I know I'm not.  I don't think I am a particularly great person.  But I feel like my attempts at self-improvement will be hindered in some way if I choose to associate with places like this.   I feel like I am surrounding myself with an ultimately negative subculture or fandom or whatever.  There are aspects of it that I really enjoy.  There are some really great people here.

Jelly told me that he's been here for years and things don't change.  The only way up is out.  It may be time for that.

So, does anyone have a decent reason for why I should stick around?  I'm having trouble thinking of one right now.


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## Takun (Jan 4, 2010)

Qoph said:


> I was drawing myself as a cat, writing storieis about me as a cat, pretending to be a cat since I was real little.  So that played a big part.
> 
> Also, how open the community is.  I don't need to worry about expressing homosexuality here, as opposed to pretty much anywhere else.
> 
> ...




You make a good kittycat.  Meow.


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## Tycho (Jan 4, 2010)

Isen said:


> So, does anyone have a decent reason for why I should stick around?  I'm having trouble thinking of one right now.



If you can't think of one for yourself, why the hell should we even attempt to think of one for you? The only reasons that matter are your own, here.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> What do you guys think of this criticism?


Fairly accurate, it pretty hard to draw facial expressions anyhow.
Drawing facial expressions means you have to know anatomy, but since it's fictional creatures, it opens a whole new can of worms that most people don't know how to deal with.


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## Isen (Jan 4, 2010)

Tycho said:


> If you can't think of one for yourself, why the hell should we even attempt to think of one for you? The only reasons that matter are your own, here.


I don't actually expect anyone to think of a reason or anything.  It was a semi-rhetorical bullshit question that got tacked on the end of a rant.

 Also I might just be in a bitchy mood right now.


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## Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

Isen said:
			
		

> Stuff about how being a furry is detrimental in the quest for self-improvement.



It's quite frightening how closely I can relate to your post. I myself am striving to be a more well-rounded person (although far from perfect, obviously), and whenver my mind wanders to it, I think "do you really see yourself being a furry in five years?" And you are probably right, if you want to strive towards self improvement, cutting the furry fandom out of your life wouldn't be the worst idea. Hell, robocoon did it, and she's definitely a lot better off than before.

Having said that though, there's nothing wrong with having friends that are furries-- if anything, it's the issue of being too deeply involved in online communities. This all could apply to any fandom, be it Star Wars, Anime, or loving Glee. Obsessions in themselves are often unhealthy, to put it simply. I myself plan to distance myself from the furry fandom to a point where it no longer becomes soul-consuming, although still wish to remain a part of it in some way due to the fact that I absolutely love some of the people I've met around these parts. There's also the fact that I'm intending to write a series of novels that have a predominantly anthropomorphic cast, and these guys would most likely be into that sort of thing.

It's really not a bad thing to be a furfag. As long as furry is an interest and not the support group that many turn it into, then it's really not such a big deal.


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## Aden (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> What do you guys think of this criticism?



The last part is the most valid, I think. Entirely too many skilled fur artists are locked into a loop of doing the same thing over and over again. The problem is that they are congratulated and paid for it - people like seeing the same stuff over and over it seems (I could draw a comparison to popular music here but that's a rant I've made too many times already). They're never pushed outside their comfort zone.

Regarding the other parts, furry art is indeed very derivative. However, most visual art produced today (particularly cartoons) is also very derivative. Styles are adapted and reworked and ripped off. It's how the world of graphics works.

But yeah, it's hard to come across genuinely good furry art. The comment about the "slightly soulless quality" will likely be quickly dismissed by most, but I think it's right on the mark in many many cases. Whether this is due to a deficiency on the artist's end or the viewer's end is on a case-by-case basis, and what I mean by that is this:

Take your average cartoon show. It will most of the time have a semi-unique style and decent art work. It's certainly not the most artistically technical thing in the world, but we as viewers grow to adore the content. Why? _We get to know the characters_. We know what motivates them, what they want, what they love, what they dislike, what makes them happy. There is an extra dimension of depth there. Contrast that to your even above-average furry art piece - it might be rendered beautifully and be extremely expressive, but at the end of the day it's likely just another furry character that you know nothing about in some pose in some scene or carrying out some action for reasons unknown. The extra dimension of caring is completely gone, and the impact of the piece suffers greatly.

This is just one way of looking at it and there are many other angles to consider, but I'm really tired right now. I'll try to expand tomorrow if I remember.

edit


Ben said:


> if you want to strive towards self improvement, cutting the furry fandom out of your life wouldn't be the worst idea. Hell, robocoon did it, and she's definitely a lot better off than before.



I definitely think it comes down to levels of involvement. I like to think of it this way: if you couldn't live tomorrow if the furry fandom ceased to exist overnight, you're setting yourself up for a slow spiral of failure.


----------



## Endless Humiliation (Jan 4, 2010)

Isen said:


> MAN I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYTHING OR ANYONE EVER HAVE I TOLD YOU HOW LITTLE I CARE BECAUSE I DON'T CARE AT ALL YOU KNOW THAT RIGHT. RESPECT MY GIMMICK I AM INTERNET COOL YOU KNOW.



I think it does operate on cycles and if you stick around for a little longer it could tilt back to "entertaining"


And also I think you are a cool guy and I like that you are good at balancing out all the shitty "jokes" and frothing-at-the-mouth effortposts


----------



## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Aden said:


> but at the end of the day it's likely just another furry character that you know nothing about in some pose in some scene or carrying out some action for reasons unknown. The extra dimension of caring is completely gone, and the impact of the piece suffers greatly


Wow, question answered.  I agree completely.


----------



## Vintage (Jan 4, 2010)

Wolf-Bone said:


> Actually I was thinking less porn and more real stories with more romance than sex, and leave the sex and porn to the fanboys since they create it even of shit they're not supposed to, but ok, whatevs.



i'm elaborating on this point because i feel it needs to be addressed.

where the fuck is our next albedo?

i think it's an apt question to ask. instead of the best artists spending time on something like that, they spend it on a selfish, voyeuristic circlejerk where they draw MURRSONA SEX and post it for all to see. even something like heathen city is inaccessible to someone who doesn't like furious gay buttsex (who doesn't amirite).

it's not their fault; it's where the money's at. i'd do it too if i had the fucking talent and a need to pay the utilities.

the problem as i see it: no one's going to commission furries where there isn't the promise of DICKR, and when people draw comics, they go into porn folios to be sold at cons.

TAKING UP ARMS against porn isn't going to work. porn will always be here, let's admit it, folks. the day some guy stops getting his jollies drawing gadget hackwrench nude is the day the sun goes fucking giant and swallows us all.

however!

as a means of subterfuge, voting with your wallet has become horribly useless (if you don't like avatar, there are thirty million people who disagree), but furry fandom is the one place where it could actually be applied with some manner of results. the pool is few enough and the expense is small enough that you could (in theory) commission a popular artist with the dedication and the patience to make a badass clean comic. it'd take money, a decent writer and an artist who doesn't floss with _flaxen silver_, but it's possible. and no one does this (they may have, but i haven't heard of any instance).

this wouldn't be a problem (and you wouldn't have to spend the money) if artisanship in the fandom was a labor of love to begin with. if that were the case, we'd be getting these comics without having to pay commission for them. but it's not. it's fetishism at its very core.

i stated in another thread that my problem with the by/for rule is that the 'by' and the 'for' are almost never exclusive. something made by furries is something that is usually made for furries. well, what do furries want? let's take a look:

oh, it's dog dick. that's it. they want porn. even in determining an audience, we shoot ourselves in the fucking foot. it's like stepping on a rake while putting your face in a blender. it is failure on red alert levels, which is admittedly hilarious, but doesn't really address the problem.



> They start from someone else's work and then emulate it in their own haphazard way - be it loony tunes, manga, another furry artist etc. It sounds weird to say this but almost every piece of furry art is instantly recognizable as 'furry' instead of just being anthropomorphic because it's basically the same drat thing over and over again.
> 
> ...
> 
> Because you just know they'd shoot off light-years ahead of everyone else if they weren't letting furry hold them back.


i was with whoever this is until 'letting furry hold you back.' this line of thought needs to be exposed for what it really is: an excuse. an excuse not to pick up a fucking anatomy book and actually work on your craft. this goes into the 'labor of love' thing.

one thing i've consistently seen in furry is this compulsion with taking the easy way out. anyone who wanted a good foundation in art would do some life drawing, study color theory, anatomy, do other things as well. tsampikos is a great example of a well-rounded artist.


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## M. LeRenard (Jan 4, 2010)

We are a dysfunctional fandom.  Of that there is no doubt.

I'm kind of a mixture of what Ashley and Xipoid were saying.  I will add, though, that one thing that keeps me around is my constant disappointment in humanity.  
What I mean by that is that I'm one of those rare individuals who often gets sick of seeing human faces all over the place.  You turn on the TV, you see people.  You walk outside, you see people.  You read fiction, it stars people.  Video games, you play as people.  Songs are written about people, drawings are made of people, sculptures decorating buildings are of people.  Even aliens in movies are often portrayed looking pretty much exactly like people, and some sci-fi shows or movies will feature aliens becoming physically attracted to us, because the human form is seen as the prime example of beauty everywhere.
In short, mankind fucking loves itself.
I see that as arrogant and obnoxious, especially in the face of all the dumb shit people are capable of, so I use furry as a way to escape.  But of course, that means I'm not a *total* misanthrope; 'anthropomorphic' has the root word 'anthro', which means--guess what?--people.  Because I still kind of like people; I just think it's often more pleasant to temper them with something else.  I've seen people who I think are beautiful, but more often than not all I see is self-righteous, idiotic ugliness that's been told it's perfect and so makes no effort to improve itself.
I blame this attitude on the places I've been raised and the fact that I live in the United States in this particular era.
Nonetheless, what I'm saying here is that some amount of misanthropy is what turned me into a furry, and is one of the reasons I stay with the fandom.  I like it that folks hide behind animal faces when they talk to you here.  One of the reasons I've never been to a con (and don't intend to go anytime soon) is because I prefer the curtain the internet provides.
The funny thing about all this, though, is that I have a decent social life.  I play in a community brass band, have a job, got two degrees and intend to turn one of those into a PhD, even go out shooting with my friends from time to time, or drink beer or gin or brandy and play Starcraft.  But this all works for me, because I keep real life and furry completely separate.  Furry, of course, being a break from real life.

There.  That's my psychoanalysis of myself.  I'm not sure how accurate it is, actually, and it will probably change in three weeks, but there you have it.



> What do you guys think of this criticism?


That could be a criticism of amateur art in general.  Which is to say, the problem with furry art is that most of it is amateur.


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## Mojotaian (Jan 4, 2010)

I'm going to save the long talk cuz no one really reads it...

I became a furry for the porn...
I'm still a furry because I enjoy other aspects of it, such as dressing up, being weird, and I have some form of acceptance by the fandom... I don't know how delusional i've become for the last part...

I'm going to save the long talk cuz no one really reads it...

I became a furry for the porn...
I'm still a furry because I enjoy other aspects of it, such as dressing up, being weird, and I have some form of acceptance by the fandom... I don't know how delusional i've become for the last part...



M. Le Renard said:


> - In short, mankind fucking loves itself.
> 
> = I blame this attitude on the places I've been raised and the fact that I live in the United   States in this particular era.
> 
> ...


 
-To that, that's true, I tend to get sick of hearing about celebrities all the time, or famous people, or the superficial values that most people tend to have nowadays... Sort of just sick of it, the fandom is sort of not how beautiful you are physically, but who you are as a person (there are exceptions though...)

= This pretty much corresponds with the first one, and the world we're growing up in...

/ Very important, I'm no cave rat despite my cave-like mentality...

+ I have suddenly decided that I like you...


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## south syde dobe (Jan 4, 2010)

I came for the bitches but someone fed me false information and there is nothing but dudes here :\
I stick around cause its fun to mess with cry babies within the fandom and the art is alright :V


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## Foxstar (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> The majority of furries are incapabe of self-improvement.  If they were, they'd have learned WHY everyone made fun of the in high school and made adiquate changes to avoid being a target.  Instead they just remained losers and became losers for the rest of their lives.



Good lord, this.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Fairly accurate, it pretty hard to draw facial expressions anyhow.
> Drawing facial expressions means you have to know anatomy, but since it's fictional creatures, it opens a whole new can of worms that most people don't know how to deal with.



Not to mention that, since we are humans and not anthropomorphic foxes, it's pretty hard for the viewer to determine a fox' mood by viewing its face as well. Sure I could become an artist and do a lot of studying on how human expressions would work on a face that's a mix between human and fox, but how many viewers would be able to tell the difference between anger and sadness for example?

I think this is also why we have so many... unique fursonas. Many people already have problems telling faces from a human culture we are not familiar with apart. (you know, the stereotypical 'you all look the same to me') Imagine trying to tell the faces of ten foxes apart.



Anyway, as to answering the questions posed in the thread;

I don't think I ever really _chose_ to become a furry. This fandom is just something I bumped into that allowed me to combine the fact I think foxes are really neat with opposable thumbs. After that it was merely a matter of thinking "Hey, apparently thinking anthro foxes are awesome is called 'furry', guess I'll call myself a furry then.".

To answer the second question, I quite frankly do not see the point.
As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing to leave, since to me 'furry' is nothing more than a label for people who think anthros are neat.
Sure, I could stop calling myself a furry, but that would change nothing on my end, and others will probably still call me a furry.


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

I got into this mainly because I like people with animal traits. I'm not talking about physical animal traits, but the kind of very direct, straightforward kind of personality that some people have that's unburdened by weird hangups. When I associate someone with an animal, it means that I think they're fun, good natured, and disinclined towards being deceitful or needlessly abrasive. Those are the kinds of qualities that I find attractive in people, and putting animal features on a person works on me like some kind of subconscious shorthand to make me interpret it that way.

But as far as actual furry art itself goes, I don't think it's really an especially groundbreaking endeavor that will ever turn the art world on its head. I believe that can be largely attributed to the nature of why most furry art is made in the first place. The most obvious thing to note is that yes, it's porn most of the time. But porn is fine if everyone involved in making it and consuming it understand it's porn. Porn is awesome when you're in the mood for porn, don't get me wrong. The problem only arises when someone tries to champion porn as a serious monument of creativity, because then it's no better than the gratuitous nudity you can find in any other photo, drawing, film or anything without substance behind it. It's okay to have a character who is physically attractive in a story, but if that sexualized imagery is the entire reason for that art to exist in the first place, it's going to look like and most likely be really shallow fanservice.

The derivative thing really needs to be addressed too. Just imagine that if instead of furries, everyone here was instead devoted to making Star Trek personas and drawing pictures of their characters flying starships and shooting phasers everywhere. We would see a lot of drawings of varying quality, a lot of them very amateur because almost everyone is expected to at least attempt to draw something at some point, and some of it very technically adept. But even at its best, it would still be artwork that has to exist inside of Star Trek and involve Star Trek's themes.

Instead of saying "I want to tell a story about spaceships and phasers," you would be better off starting from something like "I want to tell a story about people struggling to set aside their differences and defeat tyranny." And from there, you might say "I can help illustrate how powerful the badguys are by giving them a huuuuuge laser" and so on as the story justifies things like that being there.

My point with the Star Trek tangent is that it's very difficult, if not impossible for something created with furries exclusively in mind to be taken as legitimate, just because so very often at its heart it's an attempt to superficially recreate something else, just as the greatest Star Trek fan film will still be fanfiction at the end of the day no matter what.

But animal characters have very solid, legitimate reasons to exist in fiction and artwork because they're just one of infinite literary and visual tools at an artist's disposal. You could have characters be different species because you want to highlight the contrast of ideologies between different groups of people and use that to make a statement about a character in the same way you could have a character dressed in all black because you want them to look evil. (ClichÃ© example, I know, but bear with me.) You can use it to make statements about race relations or different ways of thinking or anything like that. 

The difference between Bugs Bunny and a typical furry comic is that Bugs Bunny exists primarily to tell jokes and perform slapstick humor and to satirize cantankerous red bearded Southern gentlemen. He's a bunny because they're fun to animate and helps establish him as a sort of trickster character. He's got a reason for existing first and foremost, and being a bunny only helps support his character.

So basically all I'm saying is that for furry artwork to be taken seriously, then it's sort of a fool's errand to begin with if you set out to make furry artwork, because that means embracing the superficial elements of what you like and recreating them instead of working from the inside to out with compelling characters and stories. You absolutely can both think furries are hot and use them to tell compelling stories, but if you include sexualized content in artwork just because you want to see that and not because it's justified by your story and its message, then you'll really be shooting yourself in the foot.

Sorry about the wall of text.


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)?



I got involved with Furry fandom because I'm a longtime Warner Brothers/Disney fan and think anthropomorphic animals are cool, and I enjoy meeting new people who have the same interest. 

Over the years, I've met a lot of cool folks via Furry fandom, which is why I'm still here.

It's a silly question when you think about it; I could say the same thing about most of my other interests.


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/AshleyAshes2/1247851653_kacey_rainy_day.jpg



Wow, nice picture!

Personally, I'd love to get more general-audience commissioned artwork of my character. The only problem is sometimes the artists who draw that have a bad attitude and actively trash the fandom they're trying to solicit. 

To be perfectly honest, I don't really feel comfortable giving my hard-earned Furry dollars to folks like that. In fact, I actively avoid them. I know a lot of other folks who feel the same way. 

Sometimes these artists complain that people don't buy more non-porn. I think maybe if these artists brushed up on their customer service skills they might have more customers.

*PROTIP:* Some fans collect mostly porn. Some fans collect mostly non-porn. _Most _fans collect _both_.


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## Ricia (Jan 4, 2010)

I joined the fandom cause I realized that a good deal of my characters were anthro animals and I owned a disturbing amount of plushies. I wish I had some deep reason but I've never needed a deep reason to join a fandom before. As for why I'm still a furry, cause most of my characters are still anthros and I still own a disturbing amount of plushies. Also it's nice to be around other people who create those kind of characters.


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPAARLt4iMo
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwmoCzbbWw
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS2d6efvysQ
> I honestly think those three videos should be the bible or something of furry, require all the new guys to watch this and problem solved, either that or dragoneer put it in link of the day that way people would actually watch it.



True. One of the comments at a similar panel at MFF this year was that the people who most needed to hear this advice weren't at the panel. 

The best thing we can do is lead by example and hope the newer folks get clued-in eventually.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

xydexx said:


> True. One of the comments at a similar panel at MFF this year was that the people who most needed to hear this advice weren't at the panel.


They really need to make panels like this part of the main events, not something off to the side but you have to sit through them, because I agree the ones that need to listen panels like these never go to them.


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## Vaelarsa (Jan 4, 2010)

I've just always liked anthro animals, and humans with animal traits. (cat ears / reptile eyes / whatever)

Though I do dislike much of the fandom and the cliches that surround it (the porn, the fursuit sex, the whiners, etc), I like to draw, and the idea of having a "fursona" interested me. Those are probably my only two involvements in the fandom as a whole, other than... you know... laughing at it from a distance and shit.

I'm kind of like that fan of [insert band here] that likes them only for their music, doesn't worship the band members themselves, doesn't like other fans of the band just because they're fans of the band, and can laugh at the band or the fans when they're being incompetent fuckheads.

I've thought about going to some cons as well, but again, that's just for the art and costume bits (ears / tails / shit like that).


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben said:


> And you are probably right, if you want to strive towards self improvement, cutting the furry fandom out of your life wouldn't be the worst idea. Hell, robocoon did it, and she's definitely a lot better off than before.



Speaking from personal experience, I'd disagree: Furry fandom got me out of my parent's basement in less than a year.


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> They really need to make panels like this part of the main events, not something off to the side but you have to sit through them, because I agree the ones that need to listen panels like these never go to them.



Or at the very least give them a bigger room. The one at MFF was filled to capacity, standing room only.


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## Azure (Jan 4, 2010)

Tycho said:


> What I heard.


Where is this shit from.  I've seen it many times, but never could find the original meme.


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## Doctor Timewolf (Jan 4, 2010)

I have no honest clue. I'm gonna say art though, for lack of a better reason.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

xydexx said:


> Or at the very least give them a bigger room. The one at MFF was filled to capacity, standing room only.


If it were part of the main events and people had to sit through them, there would be less people saying stupid things in front of news cameras though.


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## Attaman (Jan 4, 2010)

*Question:  *So basically, what I want to know is: why did you really decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)?

*Answer:*  I did _not_ decide to be come a Furry... because I'm not one.

The reason for this comes back to my introduction to the fandom, way back in about '05 on Gaia.  Then, it was just something I heard and considered similar to "Oh, they're a Furry.  I'm a Gamer[1].  Alright."  About two years back, I joined the forums of two Furry[2] and one often-called-Furry-but-author-insists-otherwise Comics.  There, I got a look at the members of the fandom in their "natural" environment, and one thought came to mind:

I am not joining this fandom.

The first forum's furry members were, well, _flamingly_ Furry.  As in you'd see the people who read the comic for its story "merits", and who read it because "OMG TIGER LADY DO HER DO HER!!!"  Over time, the latter's population skyrocketed while the former's dropped to essentially me and maybe five other regulars.  This is not to say the population has not improved[3], but it still didn't leave me with a good image.

The second forum's members was similar to the above, but the Furry was not flaming.  It was actually, pretty much, civil.  Of course, at the time it was also pretty much restricted to comic-discussion only, and drifting off-topic was ban-worthy.  However, there was _still_ the issue that "JUBBLIES!" seemed to be the rule of the day, that only one of the three comics tended to get discussed consistently (albeit the other two were discussed well), and ladies on the forum had large amounts of people bending over trying to impress them (Not the mods or anything, but many newbies were like "OMG LADY CAN I HELP YOU?! *Heavy Breathing*").  While in some fields it's got better, I can also say that, at the same time, it got worse.

Lastly was the third forum, which was pretty much civil... until it was mentioned you were a Furry.  That tended to get people less than amused on the forum.  At first, I wasn't quite sure why they'd be so hostile to people who claimed such when they got on the forum (alright, so I knew they were interested in jubblies and might try to sexualize the female protagonist, but then at that time I was also aware of what Rule /34/ was so I knew that it wasn't stoppable).  Then I read through the archives:  The majority of the Furry population that use to go there[4] was _retarded_.  Take the worst of the first, the worst of the second, roll them together, mix in drama-baaawing, and you had the Furries that kept trying to join the forum.

Seeing those three things at the start made me think "Hm, maybe I don't want to join this fandom."  

Then I was invited to one forum's chat.  "Oh, hey, they seem a rational bunch besides their lady / jubbly love, what could possibly go wrong?"

Cybering.  Oh dear gods of the Abyss, cybering.  Sometimes it didn't happen for days, but sometimes it would be _all_ that happened that day in the chat.  All that happened that _week_ in the chat.  That was another great decider against joining the fandom.

For the most part after the invitation, my opinion warmed slightly over the following months.  "Alright, so they're hyper-sexualized.  There's, well, worse things I guess they could be."  I started to actually speak some in the chat and not just post links / snarky one liners, starting conversations for a change.  If things remained as they were, I might have started to show further interest in the fandom / hobby.

But things, as the saying says, got worse.  First, Youtube Furries.  If you know what the problem with them is, that's all I have to say.  If you don't, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.  Second, Furry Drama.  Again, if you know what I'm talking about you can see where I have a problem.

Third, I made the mistake of going to FA (not FAF) when some of the people began posting links to their favorite artwork.  Again, "Meh, they're showing some of their favorite naughty art.  No worse than the Dating Sim request on another forum."  Then I made the mistake of trying to search FA one day for fanart of 40K (a couple good WH fan-artists are also furries)... and found that the majority of the search criteria were _fetishes_.  "Whoa, hold up.  _That_ is how the art's sorted?"  Sure enough, it was.

That, in the end, broke any motivation I had to delve further into the fandom.  I had not yet gazed into the Abyss long enough for it to gaze unto me, and I knew that there was something wrong with _fetishes_ as your search criteria.  Several of the artists I spoke with who weren't making a living off ClubStripes or other Furry Pay-Porn sites, shared with me what that essentially confirmed:  Porn sells.  You might be able to make it off merit, you might be able to strike it big without any smut.  But you might as well try entering the lottery.  This brought me back to the sexualized point, and I started thinking again "Hm, maybe the fandom _is_ too sexualized for my liking."

My opinion of the fandom has, once again, recovered some[5], but there's no way that I will delve into the fandom in earnest.  Oh, I'll join the forums and befriend some members.  I'll even critique / criticize some art.  But that's it.  If you consider that a Furry, fine by me:  Call me such.  However, I _don't_ see that as making me a member of the fandom[6].  I see that as making me informed about the fandom, and able to draw conclusions about it, but nothing more.

[1]:  Back then, I considered myself a Gamer.  Now?  Not so much.  I just started drifting away, and my desire to play all the new / latest games started dying about a year or three back.
[2]:  At the time I joined, nothing was predominantly Furry:  One of the comics claimed what the third one's artist did, while the other was a combi-comic forum for two Furry and one non-Furry comic.
[3]:  Rules in effect now so you _can't_ have borderline NSFW avatars (which, funnily enough, was almost exclusively targeting Furries and had maybe two non-Furs changing their avatars), the fact that they aren't stereotypical "BAAAW!" or "YIFF YIFF YIFF" furries, and so on.
[4]:  Used, as in they were all banned.  There's Furries on the forum now, but the opinion of the fandom is still less-than-favorable.  Luckily, the Furries who joined now _aren't_ retards or hyper-sexual fucks, so the administration hasn't had much trouble keeping things civil between them and the significant non-furry population.
[5]:  Looking on this forum has played a big part in reconstructing my opinion, as well as talking with a decent number of artists inside and outside the fandom.  Artists who only draw the smut because they know it's a money maker, forumites who recognize that the drama shitstorms are usually over pointless reasons, etcetera.
[6]:  Fandoms I see myself a part of:  40K (Or, more specifically, the Warhammer Hobby), and D&D.  That's it.  Now, Fandoms I've participated in _just as much as, or more than Furry,_ are:
+  Halo
+  Hyperion Cantos
+  Star Wars
+  Star Trek
+  Anime
+  Videogames
+  Aliens / Predator-verse
+  Sci-Fi in general
+  Sports in general
+  Football
+  Lacrosse
+  PC Games
+  Gaming in general
+  Fantasy literature in general
+  Debate (if there is such a thing as a "debate" fandom)


TLDR:  People might think I'm part of the fandom, I think I'm not, members of the fandom fucked shit up, my opinion is slightly negative but not irreparable or hateful.  I can't be called on shit for "not understanding" the fandom having observed it over four years on at least five sites.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Attaman said:


> TLDR:  People might think I'm part of the fandom, I think I'm not, members of the fandom fucked shit up, my opinion is slightly negative but not irreparable or hateful.  I can't be called on shit for "not understanding" the fandom having observed it over four years on at least five sites.


Most of us know you aren't furry, considering you're on FAF I can understand how people would think that since you're on here they would assume you're one of us.


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## Brazen (Jan 4, 2010)

Wow, that was some thread on SA, they've pretty much nailed it.


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## Zrcalo (Jan 4, 2010)

because I'm gay and I like animal porn.


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

Wolf-Bone said:


> AshleyAshes seems to take any and every opportunity to basically shout from rooftops "look how not-a-freak I am!" Possibly more than anyone else, we all see right through it, very clearly.



This reminds me of The Dumbest Con Report I Ever Read. It was from someone who went to a Furry convention, participated in the fursuit parade, got artwork of their fursona drawn, hung around with other Furry fans all weekend, and then claimed they weren't a Furry fan. 

Self-loathing is a terrible, terrible thing.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Awww...no shit posting? But why?

In all seriousness my mind became open to the idea of being part of this fandom because it offered a chance to find more of something I had a deep fascination with.

Anthropomorphic animals always fascinated me in the different mediums that I could find them. It always made me sad that it was to some point harder to find that content as you got older. Books and gamers always offered one avenue for enjoying the concept, and here and there a good movie pops up with it.

But I wanted more than that. So when I stumbled across the term accidentally on some chat group, my interest was piqued. From there is was mainly lurking and learning. I was a quiet furry lurker.

I would probably have stayed that way if not for meeting a group of furs at my high school. I was thrilled that these people I got along with so well, were all furry. It just blew my mind. I left lurker status and moved into a more active role. Wow did shit hit the fan eventually.

Despite some of what happened I still am very happy to have taken that step. It opened up a chance for personal development. I never took that step further into the gaming side of things because the behavior of these alpha mentality males just put me off way too much. I figured I'd be better off gaming alone or with a few close friends. Playing it solo in the furry fandom really is not fun however. You don't get that full experience when you just lurk. When I switched from lurker to active, I got one hell of an experience.

Sometimes I wondered if I really wanted to stay in this fandom. The furs I met IRL that motivated me to make the switch from lurker to active, are furs I stopped hanging out with for very good reasons. It was bad enough when that one creep joined the group and I warned them something was not right about this dude and the collective reply was "_hush_", because "_furry is about being accepting and tolerating_!". My intuition was right on the money...too bad they didn't listen.

With some of the later behaviors some of the members of the group began to manifest it was just, I needed to get myself away from those people and I did. I was still active online but seriously beginning to secretly wonder why I am here? Why the fuck am I still part of this fandom when these kinds of things happened?

But when I went back to the e-war and looked at the things I used to say to trolls when they talked about bad experiences it really clicked in my head that this is what they are talking about or at least some of them. That was a cross-roads. Stay or go? I chose to stay. I read through my old posts and I realized that with some points I was so wrong, but in others I was so right.

When stuff like what happened happens, you learn from it. So learn I did. Learning has shaped how I view the fandom. The main thing is let this fandom be about the art form, the concept.

I became just an internet fur for a while and I was wary of joining another IRL group. That was then and this is now. I once told other people "You know you had a bad experience. I feel sympathy for you. But not all groups are going to be that way. You might have to wait a bit, or do some searching to find a good group"

I'm still a furry because I took my advice. I didn't let what some dipshits did ruin it for me. I got back, picked up the pieces, and eventually met Zeke in College.  Zeke turned into a furry and met some other furs around here and around that time the local fur group began to re-organize. Through that I got my first experience with fur conventions, and just a really good fur group in general. The people here that I have met, I wish I had met them first. But you can't change the past. You can only learn from it. Today I have fun, and I enjoy it but I'm not afraid to be critical when a critical view is necessary. That helps keep it fun. But I'm still here for the art, for the concept. That's why I came and that is why I am here.


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## Ozriel (Jan 4, 2010)

I got dragged into it by trp.


Before that, I had a strong interest in anthro animals and I dod draw a lot of them, sculpted little anthro sculptures out of clay and painted them, and loved games with anthro animals. I was involed in the were community heavily before I got tired of the "Special snowflake" syndrome.

I love most of the art here (2d and fursuit construction).


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## Captain Spyro (Jan 4, 2010)

My interest in the fandom was small...and honestly, for quite a long time I was unaware of it's existence. I liked anthropomorphic characters well enough and never really saw much of a difference between them and their human counterparts. The personality was what caught me.

The door opened up for me through the game "Spyro the Dragon" and the fan-forum that followed, "Dragon Arena." It was through there that I developed a fan-character, which through the years, I developed into a unique character of his own in his own little fic-verse, if you will.

I have considered myself a fur for many years, even though I creeped-out a roommate of mine in college.

Really, what attracted me was the art and the stories. One artist in particular, Horus-Goddess, who I was friends with for years, though it's been a while since we have been in contact, kinda inspired my view. Her art centered mostly on antro-aspects and it was in fact she who drew my profile pic. Of course, her art has improved dramatically since then.

Another large inspiration has to be my previous girlfriend. Even though she isn't a fur, it was (and still is, actually) with her that I RP with and develop my characters and ideas with. Without her help, my ideas, characters, and storyline possibilities would be no where near where they are right now.

I have viewed many types of art, both clean and mature. I can appreciate aspects of both and see both forms as legit, as long as said mature art is within good taste.

Moving on, I never knew many other furs personally. IRL, I know absolutely none, and I met relatively few over the 'net. It wasn't until I joined FAF that actually really got to know others.

Now, recently, I've considered leaving FA, but decided against it. I've made mistakes, but I'm willing to move on.

But as I said, I love the art, stories, and even many of the people. I really hope I get the chance to meet some of you eventually.


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

I don't think it's really worth worrying about public perception of the whole group, furries have the nice advantage of 99% of the world having no idea who they are, most of whom probably wouldn't care one way or the other if they knew. But there are definitely a few places inside the fandom that might benefit from a reworking or two.

The way to think about the fandom as a whole depends on how you approach it. If you look at it all as a bunch of personals ads, then it's really no different from any sort of nonfurry fetish subcommunity. The only difference is that most of the imagery everyone wants to see is drawn rather than a photograph of the person themself. The people in it for this usually enjoy the socialization aspect, and an outlet for fetishes has to go somewhere, it may as well be a website like this. It may be kind of weird to have inflation and vore categories for art submissions, but the furry fandom is sort of a bizarre mixture of fetishes, pornography, bad art, good art, fanservice, and sometimes genuinely nice, moving pieces of Art with a capital A art. I like looking at nice artwork, and I also like porn, and the idea of having both at the same time in the same place is kind of funny to me and I like it as a unique thing of the furry fandom.

If you look at it as an art community, then yes, the porn to notporn ratio is kind of insane, but I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that's an intrinsically bad thing.  Having mostly gratuitous stuff showing up alongside the rare masterpieces isn't a problem that's exclusive to furry artwork by a long shot. Porn and fetishes are going to happen no matter what and everyone enjoys them in private anyway, so I don't think a campaign to abstain from it is going to really help or accomplish anything. I don't have anything against porn, but I'd like to see more attempts at creative artwork if only to just get some more variety.

But this is all just a bunch of me whining, how do we fix things? I'd really like to encourage more constructive criticism to be handed out so that people can work on their anatomy, their composition, their color grading and whatnot. Someone criticizing your work doesn't mean they're being a dick to you (although it's easily possible to do it in a dickish way) it means they want to help you improve and become a better artist. 

As for shouting murry purry crap all over chatrooms and forums, yes, I'd like them to show a little bit more class. You don't have to be a prude, just save it for private messages or art discussions where that kind of thing is expected and have some better taste. You can find good and bad people here same as you can anywhere else, all you have to do is take what you like from it and ignore what you don't. And don't share anything illegal or horribly unethical, ugh.


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## Ozriel (Jan 4, 2010)

Furries will never make a change until we can accept that there are problems and talk it out. You can make an attempt to instigate change just by talking it out...but it is a long shot.

We get percieved in the media because furries do/say stupid shit that gets the fandom as a whole into that negative set up.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Furries will never make a change until we can accept that there are problems and talk it out. You can make an attempt to instigate change just by talking it out...but it is a long shot.
> 
> We get percieved in the media because furries do/say stupid shit that gets the fandom as a whole into that negative set up.



It's only a long shot because quite a few furs don't recognize the power of words. So when you get people talking it out it get perceived as doing nothing and whining.

EDIT: Then again quite a few people just don't care. It can be individualistic in mentality.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> It's only a long shot because quite a few furs don't recognize the power of words. So when you get people talking it out it get perceived as doing nothing and whining.


We need to come up with things you shouldn't do even if it's just common sense things, like while in fursuit don't hump people's leg or attack the mailman.


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## Ozriel (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> It's only a long shot because quite a few furs don't recognize the power of words. So when you get people talking it out it get perceived as doing nothing and whining.



I know I am beating around the bush but: if Whining created revolutions and instigated change throughout history, then by Google I am bitching for change and doing something about it!

Furries have so-called "bitched" and look what happened to the Zoos. Those dog fucking maniacs are cowering because furries are putting their foot down and saying "NO". By George, that whining and bitching did something!
It's sad that many don't recognoze debate and discussion and labeling it as "Bitching and Whining".



CannonFodder said:


> We need to come up with things you shouldn't do even if it's just common sense things, like while in fursuit don't hump people's leg or attack the mailman.



But some furries will think that you are bitching for preaching common sense and truth!

Some furries can't stand common sense and truth, so they bitch about your bitching.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> We need to come up with things you shouldn't do even if it's just common sense things, like while in fursuit don't hump people's leg or attack the mailman.



Common sense? What be that phrase?



Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> I know I am beating around the bush but: if Whining created revolutions and instigated change throughout history, then by Google I am bitching for change and doing something about it!
> 
> Furries have so-called "bitched" and look what happened to the Zoos. Those dog fucking maniacs are cowering because furries are putting their foot down and saying "NO". By George, that whining and bitching did something!
> It's sad that many don't recognoze debate and discussion and labeling it as "Bitching and Whining".



Aye. "bitching/whining" has it's place in use. As for not being able to recognize, sometimes I get the idea people know fully well that something is debate or discussion. They just don't like it for reasons that are their own. So they treat it as "bitching/whining" to try to belittle what people have to say.


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## Captain Spyro (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> We need to come up with things you shouldn't do even if it's just common sense things, like while in fursuit don't hump people's leg or attack the mailman.



Bad thing is that the phrase 'common sense' varies from individual to individual. Sometime, that phrase just isn't good enough.


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## Ozriel (Jan 4, 2010)

Captain Spyro said:


> Bad thing is that the phrase 'common sense' varies from individual to individual. Sometime, that phrase just isn't good enough.



In order to put common sense into them, we should associate pain with doing something stupid.


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> But some furries will think that you are bitching for preaching common sense and truth!
> 
> Some furries can't stand common sense and truth, so they bitch about your bitching.



I bet if a concerted effort was made to discourage people from saying "I'm masturbating to this right now!" on half of the picture comments it would start to sink in over time.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> But some furries will think that you are bitching for preaching common sense and truth!
> Some furries can't stand common sense and truth, so they bitch about your bitching.


Meh everybody now adays bitches about something, I'd rather complain about kid didlers and the dogfuckers than complain about other furries "stealing my fursona" or whine about "those horrible trolls can't they see I'm not hurting anyone"


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> In order to put common sense into them, we should associate pain with doing something stupid.


 
Somehow I would think denied access to porn for an amount of time would be more useful. Better results I would think.


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## Ozriel (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Aye. "bitching/whining" has it's place in use. As for not being able to recognize, sometimes I get the idea people know fully well that something is debate or discussion. They just don't like it for reasons that are their own. So they treat it as "bitching/whining" to try to belittle what people have to say.



Or not not put counter your opinion with an opinion of their own. 
IMO, calling someone a troll or falsely identifing an opinion as whining and bitching should be an automatic "GTFO" in a discussion due to the fact you cannot contribute anymore.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Vortis said:


> I bet if a concerted effort was made to discourage people from saying "I'm masturbating to this right now!" on half of the picture comments it would start to sink in over time.



That it would but I'd imagine a counter-rage would manifest of "baw you all are prudes!"



Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Blue balls could work.


 To bad that sort of thing is out of the picture.


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## Ozriel (Jan 4, 2010)

Vortis said:


> I bet if a concerted effort was made to discourage people from saying "I'm masturbating to this right now!" on half of the picture comments it would start to sink in over time.



Yeah.



CannonFodder said:


> Meh everybody now adays bitches about something, I'd rather complain about kid didlers and the dogfuckers than complain about other furries "stealing my fursona" or whine about "those horrible trolls can't they see I'm not hurting anyone"



Complaining about illegal deviances is much better than complaining about someone tracing your picture and posring it.



Trpdwarf said:


> Somehow I would think denied access to porn for an amount of time would be more useful. Better results I would think.



Blue balls could work.


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## Captain Spyro (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Somehow I would think denied access to porn for an amount of time would be more useful. Better results I would think.



That counts as torture, no? I honestly have no problem with this.



Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> In order to put common sense into them, we should associate pain with doing something stupid.



It sounds so logical...maybe I'm just too diplomatic.


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> That it would but I'd imagine a counter-rage would manifest of "baw you all are prudes!"



Heh, probably would now that I think about it. I don't mean necessarily putting solid rules down and handing out bans for violating it, I just meant a sort of de facto thing where people are encouraged to call out really tasteless behavior when it shows up. But at the same time I don't want to lose the mostly friendly atmosphere this place has, I'm not really a fan of being abrasive to anyone.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Vortis said:


> Heh, probably would now that I think about it. I don't mean necessarily putting solid rules down and handing out bans for violating it, I just meant a sort of de facto thing where people are encouraged to call out really tasteless behavior when it shows up. But at the same time I don't want to lose the mostly friendly atmosphere this place has, I'm not really a fan of being abrasive to anyone.



Probably? It would happen I am sure. It already does when people tell other people "stop that" when it comes to lewd comments. You get people returning with "you are a prude".

That aside it makes sense to encourage people to discourage unsavory behaviors. As for being abrasive, it does not always have to be that way. You can find more friendly approaches to tackle tasteless behavior. If being a bit abrasive becomes necessary..well oh well.

Tell me, is a friendly atmosphere worth it if you are going to have tons of very crass bad behavior?


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## Captain Spyro (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Tell me, is a friendly atmosphere worth it if you are going to have tons of very crass bad behavior?



That's a key question actually, and one I find asking myself a few times.

I have a friend who used to be a member of FAF, but left because of the crazies. He has a young character which he developed through the years that he cares a lot about and he would be DAMNED to see his character used like cubs are in some pics. I share a lot of his viewpoints.

If you have a belief, you have to make a stand.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Captain Spyro said:


> That's a key question actually, and one I find asking myself a few times.
> 
> I have a friend who used to be a member of FAF, but left because of the crazies. He has a young character which he developed through the years that he cares a lot about and he would be DAMNED to see his character used like cubs are in some pics. I share a lot of his viewpoints.
> 
> If you have a belief, you have to make a stand.



Isn't it though?

I think I may know who you are talking about. If it is who I think we used to chat a bit before he sort of rage-quit. I understood why he was angry but...leaving does not exactly solve it.

Before one makes a stand they should think it out critically. That's where the Burned Furs seem to have gone wrong.


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## Vintage (Jan 4, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Complaining about illegal deviances is much better than complaining about someone tracing your picture and posring it.



these aren't mutually exclusive ideas. they're both pretty abhorrent and deserve to be whistleblown if you ask me!


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## Captain Spyro (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Isn't it though?
> 
> I think I may know who you are talking about. If it is who I think we used to chat a bit before he sort of rage-quit. I understood why he was angry but...leaving does not exactly solve it.
> 
> Before one makes a stand they should think it out critically. That's where the Burned Furs seem to have gone wrong.



I won't mention his name, but it could very well be. He and I chat regularly about issues and I brought up FAF one night and he told me of his situation. I joined long after he left, so I didn't experience it at the same time, but I can understand his situation, considering his personal history.

But I agree, leaving probably isn't the best solution. It's a nice way to escape it, but it's far from a true problem-solver.

You're right. I'd rather avoid their mistake, from what I know of them.


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Probably? It would happen I am sure. It already does when people tell other people "stop that" when it comes to lewd comments. You get people returning with "you are a prude".
> 
> That aside it makes sense to encourage people to discourage unsavory behaviors. As for being abrasive, it does not always have to be that way. You can find more friendly approaches to tackle tasteless behavior. If being a bit abrasive becomes necessary..well oh well.
> 
> Tell me, is a friendly atmosphere worth it if you are going to have tons of very crass bad behavior?



Oh I'm definitely willing to inject a little bit of cynicism in to keep out the pedophiles and discourage people from acting totally creepy, and the friendliness might need to be taken down just a tiny bit in order to get more art criticism to happen. All I want is to just avoid creating a misanthropic environment where everyone is sarcastic and distant all the time. Not that a little bit of that is unhealthy, of course.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Vintage said:


> these aren't mutually exclusive ideas. they're both pretty abhorrent and deserve to be whistleblown if you ask me!


Wait are you complaining about how I was complaining about pedos and bestiality or are you complaining about how people complain about stereotypical furry drama or are you agreeing with me or the people that complain about stereotypical drama?

Also nobody is going to blow the whistle cause nobody wants to police the fandom.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Captain Spyro said:


> I won't mention his name, but it could very well be. He and I chat regularly about issues and I brought up FAF one night and he told me of his situation. I joined long after he left, so I didn't experience it at the same time, but I can understand his situation, considering his personal history.
> 
> But I agree, leaving probably isn't the best solution. It's a nice way to escape it, but it's far from a true problem-solver.
> 
> You're right. I'd rather avoid their mistake, from what I know of them.



I understand not wanting to namedrop.

Well I see these kinds of things as being like a house on fire. You can  have your head in the clouds and ignore the fire because it disrupts your happy go luckiness.

You can hide from it by running away.

The only other option is to face the fire. Figure out...what do I do to make it stop?

As for not making their mistake it's not just their mistake but a mistake humans in general they make. Just because you feel strong about something does always make you right.


----------



## Captain Spyro (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> I understand not wanting to namedrop.
> 
> Well I see these kinds of things as being like a house on fire. You can  have your head in the clouds and ignore the fire because it disrupts your happy go luckiness.
> 
> ...



Actually, I just looked at the members list to see if I could find his name. Turns out what I thought he would've used as his name is used by someone else here. Not like I could tell yah in that case then.

That's a good analogy. Plus, there are wrong ways to face it. Do I run straight into the fire with a bucket of water or do I work with others to douse the flames? You'll only overwhelm yourself if you choose the former.

Tis true, of course. Plus, humans have a way of perverting potentially good ideas.


----------



## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> The only other option is to face the fire. Figure out...what do I do to make it stop?



Of course, making it stop requires *actions*, not words. Doing, not talking.

A lot of people endlessly whine and complain about problems, yet provide no viable, positive solutions to the problems they're complain about.

I remember a few folks used to whine and complain on alt.fan.furry back in the day because they thought it solved problems. Five years later they were still whining and complaining, and the only thing that changed was everyone was tired of listening to them.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Vortis said:


> Oh I'm definitely willing to inject a little bit of cynicism in to keep out the pedophiles and discourage people from acting totally creepy, and the friendliness might need to be taken down just a tiny bit in order to get more art criticism to happen. All I want is to just avoid creating a misanthropic environment where everyone is sarcastic and distant all the time. Not that a little bit of that is unhealthy, of course.



That's understandable. It all ties in together though does it not?

People want to have a friendly fandom where people can come to enjoy contents without fear of persecution of who they are. Lovely idea. Nice idea. Lets not let things like race and religion get in the way right?

But some peeps take it too far...In order to have that happy go lucky atmosphere they begin to do things or encourage things that are detrimental to any fandom. And because of that we now have a need for a healthy dose of things people originally would not want.


----------



## Vintage (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Wait are you complaining about how I was complaining about pedos and bestiality or are you complaining about how people complain about stereotypical furry drama or are you agreeing with me or the people that complain about stereotypical drama?



i don't think i was complaining about how you were doing anything because i don't think i quoted you but w/e

artistic dishonesty in a primarily art-based community is bad to begin with (it's especially bad in a fandom where money changes hands frequently for said art). so are child molestation and bestiality. if there's an issue, and you KNOW there's an issue and it's not something you just made up, don't feel the need to choose between one or the other.

that's what i'm saying.



CannonFodder said:


> Also nobody is going to blow the whistle cause nobody wants to police the fandom.



considering i just saw an unnamed artist get busted for tracing, i'd wager that someone's doing it. this person could be in it FOR THE LULZ or they may agree with me that it marks a serious lack of moral character to be pulling these kinds of fast ones, especially when you're getting money from people who put their faith in your talent and dedication and the notion that you are who you say you are.


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> That's understandable. It all ties in together though does it not?
> 
> People want to have a friendly fandom where people can come to enjoy contents without fear of persecution of who they are. Lovely idea. Nice idea. Lets not let things like race and religion get in the way right?
> 
> But some peeps take it too far...In order to have that happy go lucky atmosphere they begin to do things or encourage things that are detrimental to any fandom. And because of that we now have a need for a healthy dose of things people originally would not want.



I agree, I'm trying not to be a starry-eyed idealist here, and furries in general are in no danger at all of turning into a hateful, anti-inclusive bunch of people. I'd be fine with a little more police action, so to speak, but I'm open to still keeping the tolerances of what's acceptable slighter wider than what might be needed on other kinds of forums just because of how some of the really weird subject matter and content that gets regularly brought up can still be appreciated in a mature, civil fashion. But a little proactive action to deal with some of the really vile things that rear their heads would be nice too.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

xydexx said:


> Of course, making it stop requires *actions*, not words. Doing, not talking.
> 
> A lot of people endlessly whine and complain about problems, yet provide no viable, positive solutions to the problems they're complain about.
> 
> I remember a few folks used to whine and complain on alt.fan.furry back in the day because they thought it solved problems. Five years later they were still whining and complaining, and the only thing that changed was everyone was tired of listening to them.



I'm so sorry xydexx that apparently you have visited forums where people whine and complain and it lead to nothing. But that does change the reality that words have power.

Words have the ability and power to initiate actions. Sometimes people want to act but they won't because they are afraid that they are alone. Words via discussion: civil batting of ideas, suggestions, and observations can in turn lead to actions that lead to change.

EDIT: I am perfectly aware xydexx that at times when people sit and talk it sometimes lead to nothing. That's the difference between bitching/whining and actual useful discussion. One is more likely to yield valid suggestion that can actually be implemented and the other...not much.



Vortis said:


> I agree, I'm trying not to be a starry-eyed idealist here, and furries in general are in no danger at all of turning into a hateful, anti-inclusive bunch of people. I'd be fine with a little more police action, so to speak, but I'm open to still keeping the tolerances of what's acceptable slighter wider than what might be needed on other kinds of forums just because of how some of the really weird subject matter and content that gets regularly brought up can still be appreciated in a mature, civil fashion. But a little proactive action to deal with some of the really vile things that rear their heads would be nice too.



That is true they are in no danger so to speak of being that way...but when you are talking about the idea of pro-active action that actually becomes a common offense by those who resist such things. In general furries are a happy go lucky bunch and they don't want that to go away.

To me I tend to draw a line between tolerance and acceptance. I treat the two as slightly different things. I'll accept for example a person for their race because it's not something they can control. If they want to act like a bad nasty stereotype "I.E Ghetto gangster wannabe" I don't have to tolerate that or associate with it. Tolerance is earned just like respect is.

A great way to be pro-active through even just words is to make that differentiation when dealing with furs and bad behavior. I remember when I was playing WoW, and came across this guild that was run by furs for furs.

I remember that the main mod was not very competent because he often acted like a child although he was supposed to be an adult. It turned out he was a baby fur, and he would often come to the guild chat going on and on about how none of the other furs like him or will hang out.

So I ended up taking it to the PM's to listen to his sob story and helped him solve his problem by helping him to see that a specific behavior that he admitted to openly doing, is not tolerable. At first he got angry because he though I was "Rejecting him for who he is" until I managed to get it across that "Baby fur" is not his real identity. Choosing to not tolerate a person for bad behavior is not the same as rejecting them as an individual.

Once he finally got it, I then got him to see that if he wanted to have good friends and wanted people to hang out with him he would have to learn to have an adult side. What he was doing is he was expecting the furs at the group to baby him and cater to his fetish. That took a while to get across. It was not long after that he actually began to handle the guild in a more adult way and as far as I know his relations in that fur group improved because he figured out how to have an adult side, and stopped expecting people to cater to his fetish.

I have used this approach many times to great success dealing with furries who engage in this similar thing where they don't understand that the reason why people don't like them is because they take their fetish and treat it as their identity.  Help them learn that fetish is not something that is auto accepted. No one has to cater to unreasonable and or absorb behavior or demands. So much drama can be avoided when people come to understand that when you refuse to cater to or tolerate a fetish or something like that you are not attacking the person as an individual or rejecting them as an individual.

EDIT: This is a great pro-active way to deal with what is unfortunately a bit of a problem in the furry community.


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## xydexx (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> Words have the ability and power to initiate actions. Sometimes people want to act but they won't because they are afraid that they are alone. Words via discussion: civil batting of ideas, suggestions, and observations can in turn lead to actions that lead to change.



No argument there. Again, I was referring to people who complain endlessly but provide _no positive, viable solutions_ to problems. They were all talk and no action. 

Well, that's not entirely true... eventually some folks tried to implement their inflexible and unworkable ideas, and ended up with a gigantic liability called Burned Fur. They ended up making mountains out of molehills and being a bigger public relations disaster than anything they set out to fight against. But as I've said before, rants rarely make good mission statements.

The unintended consequence and long-term damage of Burned Fur was that now anyone who tries to form another groupâ€”no matter how reasonableâ€”gets stuck with the albatross of Burned Fur. I wish it were different, but it seems every time a new group pops up, they inevitably make the mistake of adopting the tried-and-failed (and counterproductive) goal of "kick the pervs out."


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

xydexx said:


> The unintended consequence and long-term damage of Burned Fur was that now anyone who tries to form another groupâ€”no matter how reasonableâ€”gets stuck with the albatross of Burned Fur. I wish it were different, but it seems every time a new group pops up, they inevitably make the mistake of adopting the tried-and-failed (and counterproductive) goal of "kick the pervs out."


Do you got any good ideas?
"I heard albatross were good luck until someone shot it.  Yes I read a poem try not to faint"


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

xydexx said:


> No argument there. Again, I was referring to people who complain endlessly but provide _no positive, viable solutions_ to problems. They were all talk and no action.
> 
> Well, that's not entirely true... eventually some folks tried to implement their inflexible and unworkable ideas, and ended up with a gigantic liability called Burned Fur. They ended up making mountains out of molehills and being a bigger public relations disaster than anything they set out to fight against. But as I've said before, rants rarely make good mission statements.
> 
> The unintended consequence and long-term damage of Burned Fur was that now anyone who tries to form another groupâ€”no matter how reasonableâ€”gets stuck with the albatross of Burned Fur. I wish it were different, but it seems every time a new group pops up, they inevitably make the mistake of adopting the tried-and-failed (and counterproductive) goal of "kick the pervs out."



I know that. I am simply pointing out that words CAN lead to actions. It is an important point.

As for sometimes it not working out well that is bound to happen. Sometimes it will take multiple attempts in order to implement something workable. Failure to work can be a gateway to success if you learn from failure. But with the Burned Furs...I still hesitate to say what they are or what the problem was because I have no reliable access to real information. I can only say what it "seems to be" and it seems to be that they failed at understanding a fundamental basic of modern society where sex, porn, and smut is engraved upon it rather irreversibly due to the wide use of the internet and the way media has become.

If peeps want sex, porn, and smut to be kept where it is thought to belong they need compromise, and that is a workable solution if you figure out when, where, and how it applies realistically and reliably. EDIT: (Admittedly the fandom has taken some good steps in that direction. Such as implementing more filters, which is not something I saw much of ten years back when I first started looking into the fandom. If you go to look at sites of furs who run their own with galleries of their art, you are more likely to see a general gallery and then the adult one and a warning if you try to enter the adult.

You are also seeing a separation of content at fur conventions. At places like Anthrocon a lot of work goes into it so the general  convention is not some X or M rated fetish show. Some of your furmeets police what goes on internally so that in public actions are appropriate and stuff like that.)

I have found through discussion and understanding how people think that there are some things you can do using words alone, if you are willing to take the initiative and say them. Such as telling that baby fur that the problem is with him. He was the one insisting that the fur group cater to him wanting to be babied and treated like a child. The only way he is going to find himself tolerated within the group is to stop expecting others to cater to his fetish and learn to act appropriate in public/around other furs.

I remember when in the actual meet I go to some fur was acting in ways that was making everyone creeped out and uncomfortable. I told them "Don't tell me that. If you have an issue with how he is acting sit him down and talk to him about it." Which is what happened and that issue was resolved.


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## Aurali (Jan 4, 2010)

sadly... this isn't gonna change. the ones who make the front page define the image afterall


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## Vortis (Jan 4, 2010)

Trpdwarf said:


> That is true they are in no danger so to speak of being that way...but when you are talking about the idea of pro-active action that actually becomes a common offense by those who resist such things. In general furries are a happy go lucky bunch and they don't want that to go away.
> 
> To me I tend to draw a line between tolerance and acceptance. I treat the two as slightly different things. I'll accept for example a person for their race because it's not something they can control. If they want to act like a bad nasty stereotype "I.E Ghetto gangster wannabe" I don't have to tolerate that or associate with it. Tolerance is earned just like respect is.
> 
> ...



A lot of good points, I like it. How about instead of, (or maybe supplementing) a "hey, cut that out!" policy of calling out really immature behavior, we could take a different approach of encouraging people not to define themselves by one little part of their identity? Like, I identify as homosexual but I don't drive my car or make sandwiches in a homosexual way, or inform everyone of my orientation as quickly as I tell them my name. It's an important part of me for sure, but I'm not denying myself expression or anything or being oppressed just by showing a little tact. And yeah, I know orientation is a much more fundamental thing than being a member of a fetish group, but I think a good underlying attitude to have about either of them is about the same. It's much more awesome to be a multifaceted person instead of a personification of one little thing.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 4, 2010)

Wow we went REALLY off topic


Aurali said:


> sadly... this isn't gonna change. the ones who make the front page define the image afterall


...you're right... wait that means there's nothing we can do?!
FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


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## Aurali (Jan 4, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> ...you're right... wait that means there's nothing we can do?!
> FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU



I've been trying for years... 
Gave up around the time chewfox showed up.


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## Carenath (Jan 4, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> The majority of furries are incapabe of self-improvement.  If they were, they'd have learned WHY everyone made fun of the in high school and made adiquate changes to avoid being a target.  Instead they just remained losers and became losers for the rest of their lives.


And then you have the majority of furries, also, being hypocrits and dramawhores, the irony must be lost on them.



AshleyAshes said:


> Furries can't successfully sell the idea of 'furry' because of all the screwed up furry porn.  If people could stop drawing dicks on EVERYTHING and instead commission awesome stuff like this, the furry fandom wouldn't have it's 'DICKS, DICKS EVERYWHERE' reputation in the FIRST place.  http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/AshleyAshes2/1247851653_kacey_rainy_day.jpg


No.. if furries had _discretion_ and posessed some knowledge of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, that there is a time and a place for everything, then furries would not have this reputation.
No.. instead you have those in the fandom (particularly lifestylers) that get whiney and pissy taking the fandom far too seriously.

@Ben: Short answer, I don't see myself as wholly part of this fandom, because I posess no interest in anthropomorphic furry animals.
I appreciate the artwork, clean and mature.
I appreciate the decent individuals in this group that I call friends, they're fun to talk to, hang out with when I visit and be around.


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## Aurali (Jan 4, 2010)

Carenath said:


> And then you have the majority of furries, also, being hypocrits and dramawhores, the irony must be lost on them.


I have yet to find a person on this forum I can't find a serious fault with carenath... some know their faults, even less are attempting to fix them. Though, humanity in general is like this. 



> because I posess no interest in anthropomorphic furry animals.
> I appreciate the artwork, clean and mature.
> I appreciate the decent individuals in this group that I call friends, they're fun to talk to, hang out with when I visit and be around.



You just like teh feral dragon sex. >.>


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## Fox Glove (Jan 4, 2010)

you know what I became a furry because I love animals and I always have and when it came down to it I was aroused by some of the mature art and some of the porn and throughout the years it was the human form that was really arousing me the whole time I guess, though I never really thought about it until now.

I digress, I'm not really a sexual furry. I draw cute cartoons most of the time. I refer to myself as a cartoonist. Most of my mature art is in appreciation of the form of the body.

So fuck it. I'm a cutesy furry that happens to also really be a very sexual and passionate person. That happens to offend a select few I guess because some people want to get on a moral high horse about shit I guess. I'll go with the flow.

because you know in the fandom you fucking be yourself and you learn to deal with criticisms and say I don't give a flying fuck what you think or just go back to your hugbox or both but either way we're all furfags and y'all always try to hold some superiority shit over each other me included and that's why people really hate you all.


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## Trpdwarf (Jan 4, 2010)

Vortis said:


> A lot of good points, I like it. How about instead of, (or maybe supplementing) a "hey, cut that out!" policy of calling out really immature behavior, we could take a different approach of encouraging people not to define themselves by one little part of their identity? Like, I identify as homosexual but I don't drive my car or make sandwiches in a homosexual way, or inform everyone of my orientation as quickly as I tell them my name. It's an important part of me for sure, but I'm not denying myself expression or anything or being oppressed just by showing a little tact. And yeah, I know orientation is a much more fundamental thing than being a member of a fetish group, but I think a good underlying attitude to have about either of them is about the same. It's much more awesome to be a multifaceted person instead of a personification of one little thing.



It makes sense to do something like that. Often "Cut that out" won't change anything because if the person does not understand why he or she is being asked to stop, he or she is likely to do it again in the future.

In a way yes encouraging people to identify as more than one narrow thing is a good idea. If people were to be aware of their own multiple identities they are less likely to put so much emotional importance on one thing. That is part of being a more well rounded individual. I tend to feel the reason why some furs identify as fetish's is because they are not fully in touch with themselves and lack self awareness of who they really are. Sounds like fluff but I've found it at times to be disturbingly true.

On the other hand for some furry is all they have and that's why they have a hard time identifying as more than narrow things. That's what happens when you don't expand your interests.

Even if the way you treat fetish's and sexuality may be similar it is rather prudent for people to understand they are not the same.


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## Carenath (Jan 4, 2010)

Aurali said:


> I have yet to find a person on this forum I can't find a serious fault with carenath... some know their faults, even less are attempting to fix them. Though, humanity in general is like this.


I wasn't even referring to you, but, okay.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jan 4, 2010)

Carenath said:


> Aurali said:
> 
> 
> > I have yet to find a person on this forum I can't find a serious fault with carenath... some know their faults, even less are attempting to fix them. Though, humanity in general is like this.
> ...


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 5, 2010)

Carenath said:


> I appreciate the decent individuals in this group that I call friends, they're fun to talk to, hang out with when I visit and be around.


 
To paraphrase you Carenath; 'There are angry people like me in the fandom, live with it or gtfo.'


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## Aurali (Jan 5, 2010)

Carenath said:


> I wasn't even referring to you, but, okay.


Was part of that whole, "Furries are hypocrites" thing...  We all have our faults, even you dwaggy head. *pokes* 


Wolf-Bone said:


> you didn't have to. the guilty conscience and all that shit.


Ya know, I feel guilty about things I shouldn't feel guilty about... like having a bit of fun every once in a while instead of working 24/7... or eating a bit of food so I don't starve to death..


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## Wolf-Bone (Jan 5, 2010)

Aurali said:


> Ya know, I feel guilty about things I shouldn't feel guilty about... like having a bit of fun every once in a while instead of working 24/7... or eating a bit of food so I don't starve to death..



and is this the part where I'm supposed to feel bad for not caring?


----------



## Aurali (Jan 5, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> To paraphrase you Carenath; 'There are angry people like me in the fandom, live with it or gtfo.'



Carenath? Angry? He's a teddy bear once you get to know him.



Wolf-Bone said:


> and is this the part where I'm supposed to feel bad for not caring?



If you wanna :/ I was just replying, didn't intend on a response.


----------



## Carenath (Jan 5, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> To paraphrase you Carenath; 'There are angry people like me in the fandom, live with it or gtfo.'


I can do that
But the rules still apply to "angry people".


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 5, 2010)

Carenath said:


> I can do that
> But the rules still apply to "angry people".


 
I obey the rules quite well.


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## Aden (Jan 5, 2010)

Aurali said:


> Ya know, I feel guilty about things I shouldn't feel guilty about... like having a bit of fun every once in a while instead of working 24/7... or eating a bit of food so I don't starve to death..



You know you can get bologna for like $2 a pound right


----------



## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Do you got any good ideas?



Most of the ideas I supported have already been implemented by folksâ€”myself includedâ€”who weren't afraid to back up their words with actions. 

Because that's the only way things change in this fandom. By doing things instead of just talking about them.


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## Karali (Jan 5, 2010)

Ben said:


> So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)?



 Originally it was for um. The art. Not that 'sexy' murry purry stuff that's so popular, but for people who actually drew clean art and had a fun style and all that jazz.

I'm still here for the art. And for commissions, because some people who draw furries well are also good at drawing humans well and I can always use some more art of my human characters (oh and my fursona too once in a while I guess). Oh. And for the drama that seems to break out at every possible opportunity. _Delicious, delicious drama. _


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 5, 2010)

xydexx said:


> Most of the ideas I supported have already been implemented by folksâ€”myself includedâ€”who weren't afraid to back up their words with actions.
> 
> Because that's the only way things change in this fandom. By doing things instead of just talking about them.


 
Wow, vague AND tooting your own horn.  IMPRESSIVE.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 5, 2010)

xydexx said:


> Most of the ideas I supported have already been implemented by folksâ€”myself includedâ€”who weren't afraid to back up their words with actions.
> 
> Because that's the only way things change in this fandom. By doing things instead of just talking about them.


Any specific ideas?  I could do something it's just I'm out of ideas other than keep on purposely bringing in new people.


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## Hyenaworks (Jan 5, 2010)

The art and roleplaying.




AshleyAshes said:


> The majority of furries are incapabe of self-improvement.  If they were, they'd have learned WHY everyone made fun of the in high school and made adiquate changes to avoid being a target.  Instead they just remained losers and became losers for the rest of their lives.



...So what's it like being trapped in the loser spiral?


----------



## horndawg (Jan 5, 2010)

That SomethingAwful topic is motherloving awesome. That's all I have to say.


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## Grimfang (Jan 5, 2010)

So many giant posts, only read the first 2 and a half pages. From what I saw, I think I'm mostly in agreement with Aden's reasoning:



Aden said:


> I think the fandom is a fun place, to put it simply. Sure, you might have to weed out the creepy fuckers, but underneath the layer of crap I've met some really awesome people.
> 
> Also, and I'm not joking when I say this, cons are really fun events. They're like a manifestation of why I'm still here. It's people letting themselves go and having fun with no obfuscation or preoccupation. It's the celebration of a shared interest with no mind paid to social normalcies, and I like that. There is also a higher sense of acceptance here, as clichÃ© as it is to say (especially with homosexuality, et al).
> 
> ...



But at the same time, I feel like people just have too much shit to be given.

_Why/how I got into it?_

I don't know. There really is too much emphasis on whether or not someone's a "part of it". I don't think there's really much of a line to be drawn, since (like many so righteously argue) anthropomorphic features don't earn the classification of being "furry". So I'd say, while someone argues semantics about "furries" and those furry things, it becomes less sensical, unless you think people generally are opposed to the argument that "anthro does not mean furry". I've not seen much disagreement on that. It's a given. (In the same less sensical way, I'm speaking from generalized exchanges I've seen. You've probably seen enough of the pointless broken-record-debates to have an idea what I mean though.... the lack of sleep isn't helping much.)

That whole way of distinguishing between who/what is and isn't furry makes answering a simple question more difficult. Guys will argue that something anthropomorphic isn't necessarily furry, and that their involvement in a furry community is nothing more than minimal involvement.


But getting down to it, I've always liked entertainment, and anthropomorphic characters are nothing new or rare in that. I don't think the porn really is what does it for me, although I'm far from opposed to it. The communal involvement is the best part. I've met a lot of people online and physically, and few times was I actually disappointed.

_Why I'm still involved?_

Unlike many other communities I've checked out online over the years, I'm not disappointed in this one. I've gotten pretty close with a lot of people, so I'm attached for good. And I haven't tired of it. I'd say the only thing that's become more boring and monotonous is the self-awareness/loathing or criticism towards a fandom. Most likely, it's just shenanigans, but shenanigans don't amuse me much anymore. It's probably me getting old. That's why I think people simply have too much shit to give on this sort of stuff. I've been battling enormous amounts of apathy up to this point, for the sake of completing a post.

I went to my first convention at AnthroCon 2010, and I was pretty blown away at what it turned out to be. And that kind of goes back to what I was saying was less sensical: Making an observation of one or several individuals, or a handful of interactions, and pretty much stating your adjusted view based on that.

If you just eat that shit up, and expect that "furries" are destined to be nothing more than unkempt social-reject ham-beasts, you'd be pleasantly surprised (albeit, not with the wrong crowd) at a furry convention. It's like knowing how shitty a movie is going to be, and you're reluctantly going into it with that in mind, but it actually turns out to be pretty decent.

I'd say the worst thing you'll see across the board is the mass of nerds, although that shouldn't be too unwelcoming for anyone burning their free time on their online communities, be it FA or SA. We just have better porn here.


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 5, 2010)

Hyenaworks said:


> ...So what's it like being trapped in the loser spiral?


 
I think it's more like The Island Of The Lost Boys but Robin Williams isn't going to come back so they can all finally leave and grow up.


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## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Any specific ideas?  I could do something it's just I'm out of ideas other than keep on purposely bringing in new people.


Bringing in new folks is good, sure. Setting a good example is always in vogue. So is distributing accurate information about Furry fandomâ€”anyone who doesn't like the reputation/stereotype can do something about it. Avoiding the term Furry is counterproductive. Be positive; support what you like. Don't define Furry by what it isn't. 

At this point I've been around long enough that I could probably write a FAQ on what works and what doesn't and why.


----------



## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

Grimfang said:


> I went to my first convention at *AnthroCon 2010*, and I was pretty blown away at what it turned out to be.



Nice. I'd be real interested in seeing a copy of the conbook, if you've got one handy.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 5, 2010)

Ben said:


> and try not to fuck up this thread by shitposting everywhere.



Try asking something that has NOT been asked a million times in the past. 

PS: those threads never got fucked, they just died, like this one will.


----------



## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

AshleyAshes said:


> The majority of furries are incapabe of self-improvement.  If they were, they'd have learned WHY everyone made fun of the in high school and made adiquate changes to avoid being a target.  Instead they just remained losers and became losers for the rest of their lives.



What's interesting to me is how we deal with being picked on in high school in different ways. 

Some of us understand what it was like to be singled out for being different. It gave us a greater sense of empathy and maturity when we moved on to life after high schoolâ€”you know, the real worldâ€”as well as an appreciation and ability to deal with a wide variety of different people. At least, that's how it worked for me.

Unfortunately, others didn't learn that lesson, so they make fun of people the same way people made fun of them...

...like they're still in high school.

Gee.


----------



## Aden (Jan 5, 2010)

xydexx said:


> Bringing in new folks is good, sure. Setting a good example is always in vogue. So is distributing accurate information about Furry fandomâ€”anyone who doesn't like the reputation/stereotype can do something about it. Avoiding the term Furry is counterproductive. Be positive; support what you like. Don't define Furry by what it isn't.
> 
> At this point I've been around long enough that I could probably write a FAQ on what works and what doesn't and why.



You care
entirely
too
much


----------



## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

Aden said:


> You care
> entirely
> too
> much



You say that as if
you thought it was a Bad Thing.
I don't think it is.


Hey, look. Haiku.


----------



## Aden (Jan 5, 2010)

xydexx said:


> You say that as if
> you thought it was a Bad Thing.
> I don't think it is.



It's definitely
One of the worst possible
Things that you can do

I am serious
Do yourself a big favor
And step back a bit


----------



## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

Aden said:


> It's definitely
> One of the worst possible
> Things that you can do
> 
> ...



Caring about things
Just means that you give a damn
And I give a damn

It's a dirty job
but like the clichÃ©, one that
Someone has to do

Maybe later on
I'll worship yaks naked and
Eat some tinkertoys


----------



## Aden (Jan 5, 2010)

xydexx said:


> Caring about things
> Just means that you give a damn
> And I give a damn



The furry fandom
Is not that high on my list
Of important things


----------



## xydexx (Jan 5, 2010)

Aden said:


> The furry fandom
> Is not that high on my list
> Of important things



That's your decision
I'm just saving up my points
For the free toaster

Recruit new furries
And win appliances for
Your humble abode!

Yes, I'm serious.
I sold my sense of humor
For some *magic beans*.


----------



## Ricky (Jan 5, 2010)

hey, I'm all in your thread not giving a damn and shite

No seriously, you can care too much about something if you wanna.  People are just trying to give helpful advice so you don't waste your whole life pursuing something that's dumb.

It's all up to you ^^


----------



## Heliamphora (Jan 5, 2010)

i may as well post here too as i have done nothing on topic really in the other thread.

put simply i got into furry because i was a really weird kid.  i liked drawing cartoon animals, found porn of cartoon animals, and i am pretty sure it skewed my developing sexuality into finding that hot.  i tried a bunch NOT to be into it then i gave up.

beyond the obvious "porn" answer though, i just like making up a character.  i dont really DO anything with my fursona, she just sort of exists to be drawn, but all the same i like her.  in addition, the local furries here have been very good to me.  i generally dislike furries in large groups online so i was a bit wary of meeting some irl, but generally they are normal dudes with a weird interest and very nice people.

so, in summary, i guess i like the porn, the creativity, and the people.


----------



## Xaerun (Jan 8, 2010)

Ben said:


> So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)? Sure, that question is asked constantly, but nobody really delves into the nitty gritty of it. I want everyone to be dead honest, and put their feelings out there. Even if you're one of the ones who typically paints themselves as a normal individual, I want you all to explain your history with this fandom, and to leave as few leaves unturned as possible. Hell, you might even discover something about yourself in the process, who knows. Regardless, post away, and try not to fuck up this thread by shitposting everywhere.



Frankly, I just liked the porn. Then I grew to like the art, then I grew to like the community, then I grew to absolutely despise the community and now I spend my days making things harder for them as a whole.


----------



## south syde dobe (Jan 8, 2010)

Xaerun said:


> Frankly, I just liked the porn. Then I grew to like the art, then I grew to like the community, then I grew to absolutely despise the community and now I spend my days making things harder for them as a whole.


 
lol and that is why your cool, making things harder for furries just made you slightly more bad ass than before


----------



## CannonFodder (Jan 8, 2010)

Xaerun said:


> Frankly, I just liked the porn. Then I grew to like the art, then I grew to like the community, then I grew to absolutely despise the community and now I spend my days making things harder for them as a whole.


Yeah your sandy vagina hurts


Also kinda related, IndyFurCon might not happen.


----------



## Xaerun (Jan 9, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Yeah your sandy vagina hurts
> 
> 
> Also kinda related, IndyFurCon might not happen.



What
How is that related to my sandy vagina
Like... at all?


----------



## Jashwa (Jan 9, 2010)

Xaerun said:


> Frankly, I just liked the porn. Then I grew to like the art, then I grew to like the community, then I grew to absolutely despise the community and now I spend my days making things harder for them as a whole.


Not going to lie, I lol'd.


----------



## Whitenoise (Jan 9, 2010)

Xaerun said:


> What
> How is that related to my sandy vagina
> Like... at all?



I think he's saying that you make things harder for furries by raping them with your sandy vagina, but that doesn't sound like something you'd do, or something that's even possible to do. Honestly I'm perplexed :[ .


----------



## CannonFodder (Jan 9, 2010)

Whitenoise said:


> I think he's saying that you make things harder for furries by raping them with your sandy vagina, but that doesn't sound like something you'd do, or something that's even possible to do. Honestly I'm perplexed :[ .


Nvm I was replying to someone else's earlier comment but forgot to put the quote in and don't remember who I was replying to.


----------



## Zrcalo (Jan 9, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Nvm I was replying to someone else's earlier comment but forgot to put the quote in and don't remember who I was replying to.



VAGINAL SCABBING


----------



## CannonFodder (Jan 9, 2010)

Zrcalo your new avatar is freaking me out


----------



## Hakar Kerarmor (Jan 10, 2010)

Zrcalo said:


> VAGINAL SCABBING



This is your 2000th post. I hope you are proud.


----------



## pwnt2j (Jan 14, 2010)

Hold on I'm late to the conversation
it started when I used to be a in a furry collab comic on smackjeeves, then it stopped
Used to have  a bat fursona, then I got a goatee and very handsome, dropped that
Then I basically stopped altogether
I don't even consider myself a furry, to be honest, I love art and art alone, and I can't really criticize just because of whatever clique the artist comes from
And quite frankly, furries have a sense of respect for great artists that really doesn't show on deviantart, it's easier to follow the trail of awesome bread crumbs
Plus, you people know how to draw women's bodies, I need to learn how to do that, and what better way to learn than by studying other techniques
...
Plus, I can stomach most of the crap I have to pass by... and all the gay porn doesn't put me off enough to leave
The reason I'm on FA is because it's another place to put my art, and I do have sonic fan characters, and a pokemon comic where pokemon develop more into a anthro form, so I thought I could get some exposure here
I just won't watch anyone or fav anything that could link me to porn... my mom doesn't really like furries and I don't care to have her shun me because I had a link to a gallery belonging to a gay artist... which I don't really need in the first place...
I mean, I could use other sites sure, but FA has a tightly knit user base, so basically, I'm just shamelessly plugging my art anywhere
Have you seen my signature? It's been that way since I signed up
Oh yeah, plus I've been drawing sonic the hedgehog stuff since like the 1st grade, fuzzy critters are basically just another bit of my world, that and giant mechs, huge scenes of chaos, and crazy sick action
If they make a website dedicated to art about giant robot fights in space then I'm there


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Ben said:


> *"ironic"*
> So basically, what I want to know is: why did you _really_ decide to become a furry (and more importantly, why are you still)? Sure, that question is asked constantly, but nobody really delves into the nitty gritty of it. I want everyone to be dead honest, and put their feelings out there. Even if you're one of the ones who typically paints themselves as a normal individual, I want you all to explain your history with this fandom, and to leave as few leaves unturned as possible. Hell, you might even discover something about yourself in the process, who knows. Regardless, post away, and try not to fuck up this thread by shitposting everywhere.



First of all, not everybody here is a furry.
Second, I lurk here because I like furries and don't troll them.
Third, I don't think furries are sick, but are just a new branch of the tree of hobbies.
Fourth, I think of myself as "Non-furry, Non-troll, Non-weaboo, Non-redneck, Non-nerd, Non-fa-".
Fifth, "Yiff" makes me eyebleed, I mean how low can the branch get?Well everybody deserves porn.
Sixth, you can't hit me from behind.
Seventh, I have no feelings.
Eighth, I like to listen to others' problems.
Ninth, moron.


----------



## Rainwhisker (Jan 15, 2010)

Well, depends on definition of furry I guess. I could be one because I do associate myself to animals, I do come up with characters that are almost always anthropomorphic or animals in some way, also I've had an insane fascination to animals, and shows with them. If there was ever a video game or a show, I'd immediately like the anthropomorphic animal or the character's pet, or some animal, or even whatever's not remotely human. I get disappointed when I see X game or Y Online RPG doesn't have any other choice besides Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Halfling/inserthumanequivalent here.

But what sets me off with fully declaring myself right there what I am is because of the general hyper-biased stereotypical view of furries. And the sad thing is, it's almost always true. I've only been in this forum for a day, but I've read many topics concerning this in many forums before and it usually splits into 3 groups of people:

1) The people who think furry is a fetish - they do it for the porn and the fantasy hawt stuffs they can do. This is the general view held by a lot of the public, and they bash on everyone even from the other groups because of that.

2) The people who think furry is a getaway - they do it to separate themselves from the world, have just an alternate life, this may include people who do this on the internet or when they act like someone else in RL.

3) The people who honestly have an attraction to animals and just have a desire or a liking or like to think of themselves as an anthro or an animal, who lives exactly the same way as the real them would. 

I admit I was born with every trial against me from being a normal human being, I've always had plenty of liking for fetishes, and I liked other guys and look at them more than women. And I admit I did retreat to this to go do things I'm not proud of such as the gay porn, and it's actually nice to know that there are people out there that I can relate to, because I could get chewed out so easily should anyone else that I haven't told found out. I luckily had a good 4 years of high school, and there were plenty of understanding people in there, but until recently I've denied everything, though reality came crashing down on me.

I still am fighting the fact that places like this isn't a place to just revel in all the 18+ art, to just destroy myself completely. I tell myself I want to be proud of myself when I look in the mirror, and I most certainly can. I can be a furry by my own definition, and just lying around amongst others who just act cute and animal-like, thinking only of sex is not someone I'll consider furry in the whole definition. Furries are always going to be human no matter what, so why can't I just be a furry in my own terms, growing the way I want to be?

Truth be told, this topic itself has taught me a few things about how not everyone here is not always about acting cute and in it for the 18+ art. I also have a clearer image of what exactly is the extent of my furry-ness. 

I see so much art and stories written that actually make me relate more to the characters and the romance, so beautifully done -- I enjoy seeing the furry art or reading stories about them where it's not about just the porn. I'd lie if I said I didn't enjoy the 18+ bits, we're all human and we do have our desires, but in the former there's a *point.* Characters I can relate to, actual romances that make my heart ache. 

So in the end, furries aren't any different than humans in my definition, just like how any human in any fandom can destroy themselves by just never changing, hanging out with people who understand them, but all they're doing is living under a rock. They're just being like those people who only live in their room with their internet and their comic books...or just normal humans who look at normal porn.


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Rainwhisker said:


> Well, depends on definition of furry I guess. I could be one because* I do associate myself to animals*, I do come up with characters that are almost always anthropomorphic or animals in some way, also *I've had an insane fascination to animals*, and shows with them. If there was ever a video game or a show, *I'd immediately like the anthropomorphic animal or the character's pet, or some animal, or even whatever's not remotely human*. I get disappointed when I see *X game or Y Online RPG doesn't have any other choice besides Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Halfling/inserthumanequivalent here.*
> 
> But what sets me off with fully *declaring myself right there what I am is because of the general hyper-biased stereotypical view of furries.* And the sad thing is, it's almost always true. I've only been in this forum for a day, but I've read many topics concerning this in many forums before and it usually splits into 3 groups of people:
> 
> ...



That's interesting.
You brought some nice points out there, although I can't relate them to anything I know, because I don't get to speak with furries real time and make them spit out information for me.

Also, you said you like yaoi.

Furries are no different from humans at the end, because they ARE humans.
But them thinking they are an animal.... I'll make them endangered.
SPICE


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 15, 2010)

Rainwhisker said:


> Well, depends on definition of furry I guess. I could be one because I do associate myself to animals, I do come up with characters that are almost always anthropomorphic or animals in some way, also I've had an insane fascination to animals, and shows with them. If there was ever a video game or a show, I'd immediately like the anthropomorphic animal or the character's pet, or some animal, or even whatever's not remotely human. I get disappointed when I see X game or Y Online RPG doesn't have any other choice besides Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Halfling/inserthumanequivalent here.



A little bit like me, although I prefer animations to anything else.



> But what sets me off with fully declaring myself right there what I am is because of the general hyper-biased stereotypical view of furries. And the sad thing is, it's almost always true. I've only been in this forum for a day, but I've read many topics concerning this in many forums before and it usually splits into 3 groups of people:
> 
> 1) The people who think furry is a fetish - they do it for the porn and the fantasy hawt stuffs they can do. This is the general view held by a lot of the public, and they bash on everyone even from the other groups because of that.
> 
> ...



I fit group two here.



> I admit I was born with every trial against me from being a normal human being, I've always had plenty of liking for fetishes, and I liked other guys and look at them more than women. And I admit I did retreat to this to go do things I'm not proud of such as the gay porn, and it's actually nice to know that there are people out there that I can relate to, because I could get chewed out so easily should anyone else that I haven't told found out. I luckily had a good 4 years of high school, and there were plenty of understanding people in there, but until recently I've denied everything, though reality came crashing down on me.



It is unhealthy to deny things. What is wrong with gay porn? everyone has their own likes and dislikes.



> I still am fighting the fact that places like this isn't a place to just revel in all the 18+ art, to just destroy myself completely. I tell myself I want to be proud of myself when I look in the mirror, and I most certainly can. I can be a furry by my own definition, and just lying around amongst others who just act cute and animal-like, thinking only of sex is not someone I'll consider furry in the whole definition. Furries are always going to be human no matter what, so why can't I just be a furry in my own terms, growing the way I want to be?



I've been saving more clean art than 18+ stuff recently. I just haven't felt like paying much attention to the 18+ stuff.



> Truth be told, this topic itself has taught me a few things about how not everyone here is not always about acting cute and in it for the 18+ art. I also have a clearer image of what exactly is the extent of my furry-ness.



One of the biggest stereotypes of the fandom (IMO) is that furries are only in it for the porn. Not the case, There are many on here who don't look at it, there are people here who look at both adult and tame art, and there are those, like me, in it for more than one reason.



> I see so much art and stories written that actually make me relate more to the characters and the romance, *so beautifully done -- I enjoy seeing the furry art or reading stories about them where it's not about just the porn*. I'd lie if I said I didn't enjoy the 18+ bits, we're all human and we do have our desires, but in the former there's a *point.* Characters I can relate to, actual romances that make my heart ache.



this is nice stuff to view. But I also like this done in porn aswell.

[/QUOTE]So in the end, furries aren't any different than humans in my definition, just like how any human in any fandom can destroy themselves by just never changing, hanging out with people who understand them, but all they're doing is living under a rock. They're just being like those people who only live in their room with their internet and their comic books...or just normal humans who look at normal porn.[/QUOTE]

Furries are always going to be human.


----------



## Mojotaian (Jan 15, 2010)

Dead honest, I came here for the porn, yep! The DREADED and the SHAMEFUL aspects of the fandom! And you know what? I don't really give a shit! I'm actually happy with it! Proud? Pfft, what is pride exactly? No... I'm happy I chose this and despite what the rest of you think, I will continue to enjoy what I enjoy about it... Though, to me, it doesn't seem so wrong, it's just more dick and vag to me, and even so, I don't risk accidentally envisioning my friends that I find remotely attractive, because that unnerves me. To me, furry porn is instead a way to enjoy myself without the sentimentality of disrespecting a friend... So in that sense, is it that bad?

Why do I stay? Because, you all, for what I think, are awesome people, from the socialable trolls to the less sociable actual furs... I've come to love your banter, enjoy your talk and savour your wisdom... So... I'm not sure... Belt me if you like, but that's what I think... a bit overstated due to the music i'm listening to, but still...


----------



## Mojotaian (Jan 15, 2010)

Rainwhisker said:


> Characters I can relate to, actual romances that make my heart ache.


 
Also, this, I've read a good many romance comics that are done by/for furs...


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Mojotaian said:


> Dead honest, I came here for the porn, yep! The DREADED and the SHAMEFUL aspects of the fandom! And you know what? I don't really give a shit! I'm actually happy with it! Proud? Pfft, what is pride exactly? No... I'm happy I chose this and despite what the rest of you think, I will continue to enjoy what I enjoy about it... Though, to me, it doesn't seem so wrong, it's just more dick and vag to me, and even so, I don't risk accidentally envisioning my friends that I find remotely attractive, because that unnerves me. To me, furry porn is instead a way to enjoy myself without the sentimentality of disrespecting a friend... So in that sense, is it that bad?
> 
> Why do I stay? Because, you all, for what I think, are awesome people, from the socialable trolls to the less sociable actual furs... I've come to love your banter, enjoy your talk and savour your wisdom... So... I'm not sure... Belt me if you like, but that's what I think... a bit overstated due to the music i'm listening to, but still...


You are very hysterical and overdramatic about how people will think about the reason you chose to come here. Furry porn... I can't think of it as a normal thing, but I don't think it's worser than suicide. But why not normal porn?
Well as long as you enjoy it, I don't go against this.
Just don't cause pain to yourself by watching furry porn you don't want to watch or hearing suicide trans music.
Be happy.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 15, 2010)

Mojotaian said:


> Dead honest, I came here for the porn, yep! The DREADED and the SHAMEFUL aspects of the fandom! And you know what? I don't really give a shit! I'm actually happy with it! Proud? Pfft, what is pride exactly? No... I'm happy I chose this and despite what the rest of you think, I will continue to enjoy what I enjoy about it... Though, to me, it doesn't seem so wrong, it's just more dick and vag to me, and even so, I don't risk accidentally envisioning my friends that I find remotely attractive, because that unnerves me. To me, furry porn is instead a way to enjoy myself without the sentimentality of disrespecting a friend... So in that sense, is it that bad?
> 
> Why do I stay? Because, you all, for what I think, are awesome people, from the socialable trolls to the less sociable actual furs... I've come to love your banter, enjoy your talk and savour your wisdom... So... I'm not sure... Belt me if you like, but that's what I think... a bit overstated due to the music i'm listening to, but still...



You just described me.  





ArrLeashen said:


> You are very hysterical and overdramatic about how people will think about the reason you chose to come here. Furry porn... I can't think of it as a normal thing, but I don't think it's worser than suicide. But why not normal porn?
> Well as long as you enjoy it, I don't go against this.
> Just don't cause pain to yourself by watching furry porn you don't want to watch or hearing suicide trans music.
> Be happy.



Does normal exist? I mean, sure there are many things considered normal to do or own, but I can guarantee you what one person finds normal, another person will find weird. I probably have methods of doing tasks that seem normal to me, but weird to someone else.


----------



## Mojotaian (Jan 15, 2010)

ArrLeashen said:


> *You are very hysterical and overdramatic about how people will think about the reason you chose to come here. Furry porn...* I can't think of it as a normal thing, but I don't think it's worser than suicide. But why not normal porn?
> Well as long as you enjoy it, I don't go against this.
> Just don't cause pain to yourself by watching furry porn you don't want to watch or hearing suicide trans music.
> Be happy.


 
I can agree with hysterical and overdramatic, but with all of the slander that seems to be overdramatised about furry porn itself, is it unjustified?
Why not normal porn? Once again, it comes to close to making me envision people I'd rather NOT think of fucking, and besides, FA tends to be a bit safer for me... in terms of viruses... I just like this.

How would I cause pain to myself? I don't listen to suicide trans music...

ATM, I am happy save a few instances...



RandyDarkshade said:


> You just described me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Oh good, so there are similar people :3

Too right, of course, I don't value the film-fads that my friends seem to be into, and they don't appreciate my taste in music or social analysis... People have their own tastes, being into the things I am taught me that...


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Mojotaian said:


> I can agree with hysterical and overdramatic, but with all of the slander that seems to be overdramatised about furry porn itself, is it unjustified?
> Why not normal porn? Once again, it comes to close to making me envision people I'd rather NOT think of fucking, and besides, FA tends to be a bit safer for me... in terms of viruses... I just like this.
> 
> How would I cause pain to myself? I don't listen to suicide trans music...
> ...



Well you said something about overstated and music, and I agree that normal porn would make you envious, so you got into a place without envy because it's not real. And that is good that you are happy.




RandyDarkshade said:


> You just described me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nowdays I can't seprate normal and abnormal for good.
I find people that live boringly' with a midterm job, midterm life, midterm hobbies, midterm relationships and midterm personality normal.
I find furries abnormal, becuase few have different jobs, few have different life, few have different hobbies, few have different relationships and few have different personalities, all other than normality.
Furries are matched to all categories, and that is a reason why I don't hate them.

Trolls for example, have midterm job, different life, different hobbies, failing relationships, failing personality.

Weaboos: different jobs, different life, different hobbies, different relationships, different personalities.

Actually all categories vary so this is not so accurate.


----------



## Rainwhisker (Jan 15, 2010)

Truth be told, it's specifically the act of watching the 18+ content that puts me of -- I see giving in to my desires as something I have to get over, because I don't want to be a person who flies on a whim because of what my underwear tells me. I don't mind people being homosexuals, it's biological in most cases such as mine. I admit it just fine to myself. 

Maybe I just worded that last post's paragraph wrong and gave the impression I refuse to admit it; no, my bad. What I mean to say is I do accept it wholly as part of myself. If I don't, I'd just be turning myself into something I'm not *by force*, rather than by what *I feel is right.* After all, how can I change some aspect of me if I don't even acknowledge I have that trait myself?

Reading my paragraphs again I seem to have made a double negative and gave yet again another wrong impression, d'oh. I mean to say that not everyone here's in it for the adult content. My bad. >.< As far as romantic stories leading to graphic scenes, I don't mind, because I know that the act of love between the characters are genuine.

I'm sorry; I didn't proof-read my post and a lot of it was actually written in a wrong way. No offense to anyone, I promise I'll proof-read more when I go into serious topic discussion.


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Rainwhisker said:


> Truth be told, it's specifically the act of watching the 18+ content that puts me of -- I see giving in to my desires as something I have to get over, because I don't want to be a person who flies on a whim because of what my underwear tells me. I don't mind people being homosexuals, it's biological in most cases such as mine. I admit it just fine to myself.
> 
> Maybe I just worded that paragraph wrong and gave the impression I refuse to admit it; no, my bad. What I mean to say is I do accept it wholly as part of myself. If I don't, I'd just be turning myself into something I'm not *by force*, rather than by what *I feel is right.* After all, how can I change some aspect of me if I don't even acknowledge I have that trait myself?
> 
> ...



You wrote paragraphs? Sorry I didn't seee any or remember any :V.
So you are gay? No or yes, that doesn't worry me.
Nobody takes offense of furry porn and gay sex paragraphs.


----------



## Rainwhisker (Jan 15, 2010)

I was referring to my previous post, tis all.

And yes, I'm gay. Bi to be exact, as I grow I start looking at women but I still find more interest in men.


----------



## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Rainwhisker said:


> I was referring to my previous post, tis all.
> 
> And yes, I'm gay. Bi to be exact, as I grow I start looking at women but I still find more interest in men.



Ah yes, I see what post, it was kind of direct.
From the three options, I am not one of them, that would be more like..
4) A person that collides with furries or is a furry itself but doesn't stick to the porn neither the fetish, gateway or the attraction but instead judges other furries.

So you are a gay leaning Bi or Bi leaning gay? Becuase until now you was pretty nice and not "sideways", you didn't show your full blown pride like it was your second name.


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## Rainwhisker (Jan 15, 2010)

ArrLeashen said:


> Ah yes, I see what post, it was kind of direct.
> From the three options, I am not one of them, that would be more like..
> 4) A person that collides with furries or is a furry itself but doesn't stick to the porn neither the fetish, gateway or the attraction but instead judges other furries.
> 
> So you are a gay leaning Bi or Bi leaning gay? Becuase until now you was pretty nice and not "sideways", you didn't show your full blown pride like it was your second name.



I guess I wouldn't mind someone to judge, it's your opinion after all.

What do you mean by 'pretty nice and not sideways"? Well, I can't see too much of a difference between the two, but I have to say...its kind of the former. For personal purposes I'm striving to move to the straight. Well, it's rather difficult of a task, perhaps nearing impossible. But I won't let that thought stop me. I've been this way since I was young, but I'm barely halfway through 18. I'll still grow and we'll see where life takes me, but I'll hold my principals to heart.


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## CynicalCirno (Jan 15, 2010)

Rainwhisker said:


> I guess I wouldn't mind someone to judge, it's your opinion after all.
> 
> What do you mean by 'pretty nice and not sideways"? Well, I can't see too much of a difference between the two, but I have to say...its kind of the former. For personal purposes I'm striving to move to the straight. Well, it's rather difficult of a task, perhaps nearing impossible. But I won't let that thought stop me. I've been this way since I was young, but I'm barely halfway through 18. I'll still grow and we'll see where life takes me, but I'll hold my principals to heart.



Pretty nice is the meaning itself.
By "Sideways" I meant that you are not into the main path of the sexualation.

Gay leaning Bi has a stronger taste for males than Bi leaning Gay.

Personal purposes to move to straight.. okay.
Not impossible but hard.
Been what since you were young? Bi? well nvm.
Sit and grow.


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## Rainwhisker (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I'll do just that.


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## Taren Fox (Jan 17, 2010)

Aden said:


> I think the fandom is a fun place, to put it simply. Sure, you might have to weed out the creepy fuckers, but underneath the layer of crap I've met some really awesome people.


I agree to a point.

The furry fandom is a great community. "Furry" is a lot of fun and has a lot to offer. With that being said, we need to strive to have a more perfect community. Improving our social standards in the community is key for improving our public image.


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## RedneckFur (Jan 17, 2010)

I discovered furry by accident while I was in college.  I thought I was the only person in the world that liked to draw the sort of art that I do.  It had nothing to do with orientation or sexuality for me.  It was just an art style that really apealed to me.


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## Lomberdia (Jan 17, 2010)

FoxyAreku said:


> The art, all my friends, and because it feels right for me.


 
truier words have never been spoken.


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## LizardKing (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm just here for the porn.
And making fun of idiots


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## CannonFodder (Jan 17, 2010)

Taren Fox said:


> I agree to a point.
> 
> The furry fandom is a great community. "Furry" is a lot of fun and has a lot to offer. With that being said, we need to strive to have a more perfect community. Improving our social standards in the community is key for improving our public image.


Oh boy, you're gonna learn a hard lesson quick.


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## NovaMetatail (Jan 31, 2010)

How did I get into furry? It's a pretty long story in all honesty, hopefully I can shorten and condense it a bit...


I've never felt "human", spiritually, mentally, whatever. When I was little, I was very inspired by animals...I always wanted wings, I loved the idea of having a tail and would walk around with fake tails quite often. I always wanted to fly as well...I had numerous dreams about flying low, and it just felt wrong not being able to fly. I loved most animals, and despite lack of talent for drawing furry art, I did draw a lot of half-animals later in my childhood, most notably half-foxes, half-spiders, half-birds, centaurs...so on. I always liked to make them "taurs", in other words, human upper-body, animal lower body. I think this may be a sort of subconscious symbolism...maybe it symbolizes my human mindset and body, but my semi-subconscious identity as a non-human. 

When I was about ten or eleven, I really started considering myself somehow "inhuman", but when I was twelve, I attempted to fight this. When I was thirteen, however, the feelings came back. I wondered if perhaps all of these feelings were due to my spirit being of non-human origin. (Later I came to believe in the possibility that all this is psychological, but I can't say for sure.)

I found the otherkin and therian community through a friend. However, I did not feel entirely comfortable at the time given the intense questioning, and the sheer amount of "drama"! I found furry through therianthropy, and went to the furry community, which for the most part, is much more accepting, and open to "expressing" the animal outwardly. When I was eighteen, I met some furries on pounced, and was accepted into their group, and became good friends with them. 

Now, I had no clue whatsoever what I was. It took me from age fourteen, to now (age twenty) to figure out remotely what I am...I'm still not entirely sure, but by now I know I identify as avian, likely roc, an Arabic mythological bird. It just feels right.

Since then, I have attended Midwest Furfest twice, and occasionally, furry bowling through the LAFF list.


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## Ozriel (Jan 31, 2010)

TheFeatheredOne said:


> How did I get into furry? It's a pretty long story in all honesty, hopefully I can shorten and condense it a bit...
> 
> 
> I've never felt "human", spiritually, mentally, whatever. When I was little, I was very inspired by animals...I always wanted wings, I loved the idea of having a tail and would walk around with fake tails quite often. I always wanted to fly as well...I had numerous dreams about flying low, and it just felt wrong not being able to fly. I loved most animals, and despite lack of talent for drawing furry art, I did draw a lot of half-animals later in my childhood, most notably half-foxes, half-spiders, half-birds, centaurs...so on. I always liked to make them "taurs", in other words, human upper-body, animal lower body. I think this may be a sort of subconscious symbolism...maybe it symbolizes my human mindset and body, but my semi-subconscious identity as a non-human.
> ...



The Therians were a pretty decent group before the otherkin invaded....what I can remember is that a lot of "Greymuzzles" went on their own as soon as the newfags traveled in. The definition was one meaning  before it became a cluster fuck of definitions.... That was sad day indeed. You won't even know who's a Therian or not unless you ask or you find a small knit community.


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## Romanpower (Feb 1, 2010)

I got into the fandom in very simple and clueless way. I was on YouTube looking up some techno music amv's, and in one of the videos were furry rave pictures, i instantly fell in love with them. So i looked more into it, and i found some m/m pictures, and once again shamelessly fell in love with those as well. I searched more, found so many great artists websites like blotch. (then drama happened with friends) . Then i found FA, than FAF. Then i asked and luckily found 3 people that go to my school that loved the same stuff as me, even as much as the same pictures/comics/artists (amazing). Things just went up to there, they went with me to Furcon, which was amazing. Which is a very fast transition for a guy, this was all over 6 months, i am still in high school, i wonder what the future holds.


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## Kyle Necronomicon (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm a furry because I am, I like anthropomorphic animals and such so that's why I'm a furry originally and now.


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## CynicalCirno (Feb 1, 2010)

I am a furry because I am obsessed with guns and army.


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## footfoe (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm a furry because i have no friends and have gone 17 years without any romantic contact what-so-ever.


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## Bando (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm a furry because... 

Wait! How the fuck did this turn into one of these threads?!?!?!! >:[


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## Katty McSnowcat (Feb 1, 2010)

I tripped and fell into FurryMuck in '98 or so without even knowing there was a culture. As for a reason to stay, there's no real reason to "leave." It's a fun hobby and a place where imagination is at least attempted. Succeeding, is another matter, but I digress. Furry's a hobby at its most basic level, and for me, that's plenty enough.

We're all here because in some avenue, no matter how tangential, we like the idea of fantastical sentient creatures. It's not a perceived societal normal even if you don't have a furry avatar, browse FA with a filter, or have 30 murrpurrsonas and typefuck with a equal amount of people a night. This particular fandom is going to attract others, be it because of sexual orientation or attraction, religious/political (or lack their-of) leanings, or if you're just in it for the art and find the concept of a walking talking hybrid animal with a blue necktie awesome. We've all got our own quirks. Some of us can deal, some of us can't. Most of us can get past that, or I'd like to think we can, and interact with each other for who we are. If we couldn't, we wouldn't be here, or forming cons, doing podcasts, even forming businesses for Pete's sake. 

Stopping my rant before I really go off, I have to say this as my own standpoint. I think a lot of this "We need to be taken seriously as a fandom" is a bit misguided. It's a repeating record, but we all have our views on what this fandom is. There's no wrong answer. What ties us coming and staying in, no matter how little or large we make a part of our lives is that concept of a animal-human hybrid is a neat thing. After that, everyone can go off on their way. I may not like or get the understanding of hyper-herm vixens or the wave of people demanding rights like they're a oppressed minority because they're a furry and decided to wave it in everyone's face. I don't get it, but if that's your thing. Go on with it, but you have to be prepared for any consequences: good or bad. I feel like we're all trying to press on a acceptable, concrete rule of what makes us a furry, or what makes us a group, and that creates a lot of needless tension and drama. A little common sense and understanding goes a long way. 

If you're sick of all the porn, "newfags", otherkin or anything like, deal with it or get off your web browser, you brought yourself here, the fandom will not bend to you. 

Likewise, if you're mad at the aforementioned people and feel oppressed or get made fun of because you identify yourself as a "furry", you have your own set of spiritual beliefs, you'll pounce on anything and call it a "mate" just for the achievement of saying "I have a significant other," deal with it or get off your web browser. You also brought yourselves here and opened up. The fandom won't bend to you either. 

We're going to attract the crazies and occasionally someone with out common sense will do something stupid. I'm glad we have people like Dr. Kage as our defacto PR guy, but on the other hand, I feel kinda bad as he has to have that position placed on him. 

TL;DR: We're all weird. Furry should be fun. If you're not having fun, relax. This isn't something to get a ulcer over.


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## RedneckFur (Feb 1, 2010)

At first, it was because i'd always drawn "animal people" art.  Finding a whole community of people who did the same was very refreshing.  At first, I was one of those hard core furs that dived head first into the fandom and wanted to be a part of everything, but after a few years, I figured it all out.

Alot of the fandom is made of fail and creepy.  I dont have to like it or protect it.  I also learned its perfectly ok to laugh at and ridicule those furs made of fail.

I now run a local furry meet with over 100 members and I've had a blast doing it.


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## Sanguine (Feb 1, 2010)

RedneckFur said:


> Alot of the fandom is made of fail and creepy.  I dont have to like it or protect it.  I also learned its perfectly ok to laugh at and ridicule those furs made of fail.
> 
> I now run a local furry meet with over 100 members and I've had a blast doing it.



It's perfectly ok to be above something as petty as ridiculing anyone or anything. . .


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## Ariosto (Feb 1, 2010)

I had always liked anthropomorfic characters, cared about animals and sometimes liked to pretend I had a tail.
So when, I found there was a whole fandom that shared that hobby I thought: "Hey! Why not join? It will be fun"
Thus, I am here.


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## Fluory (Feb 1, 2010)

I barely do anything with the fandom. I draw art and write because I think furries are a cool idea but that's about it. I don't really seem to click with the people I've met in the fandom, and the few furries I've met IRL were very smelly and kind of lumpy, which wasn't cool. The one girl had a mustache. This is basically everything I've done for the whole five years that I've considered myself a "furry." I'm pretty normal huh.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 1, 2010)

Fluory said:


> I barely do anything with the fandom. I draw art and write because I think furries are a cool idea but that's about it. I don't really seem to click with the people I've met in the fandom, and the few furries I've met IRL were very smelly and kind of lumpy, which wasn't cool. The one girl had a mustache. This is basically everything I've done for the whole five years that I've considered myself a "furry." I'm pretty normal huh.


You're pretty much an average furry, less than have of the fandom has ever done anything irl with the fandom.


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## Taren Fox (Feb 1, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> You're pretty much an average furry, less than have of the fandom has ever done anything irl


Fix'd.


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## SurrealDreamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Fluory said:


> I barely do anything with the fandom. I draw art and write because I think furries are a cool idea but that's about it. I don't really seem to click with the people I've met in the fandom, and the few furries I've met IRL were very smelly and kind of lumpy, which wasn't cool. The one girl had a mustache. This is basically everything I've done for the whole five years that I've considered myself a "furry." I'm pretty normal huh.


 
Lol.  I don't really like many of the furs I've met in real life... Most all of them (Except like 3) have been either over-the-top extreme furfreaks that wonder why I don't suit or furpile or anything, or they are just really overweight, unattractive (in both personality and appearance), creepy people...  The three that aren't are like my best friends though.  :/

My entire life, though, I've associated myself more with animals than humans, simply because I've been hated my life and called a fag because I sing and such.  Yeah, people in small towns are stupid, but whatever.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 1, 2010)

its cause I called myself a furry


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## Taren Fox (Feb 1, 2010)

SurrealDreamer said:


> My entire life, though, I've associated myself more with animals than humans, simply because I've been hated my life and called a fag because I sing and such.  Yeah, people in small towns are stupid, but whatever.


You get jerks everywhere you go. D:


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## SurrealDreamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Taren Fox said:


> You get jerks everywhere you go. D:


 
Yes, but there's a considerable amount of them in towns where the Average IQ is lower than a decaying log.


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## Taren Fox (Feb 1, 2010)

SurrealDreamer said:


> Yes, but there's a considerable amount of them in towns where the Average IQ is lower than a decaying log.


Don't move to Western PA. The number of teeth people have in their head generally is more than their IQ. It's pretty bad.


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