# So, about that migration...



## Tamen (Nov 17, 2006)

Just curious, anyone have any idea just how many people left FA due to the recent events?  Not sure if it's really a mass exodus, as people were flailing about and proclaiming it to be, or if it really didn't have much of an impact on the user base.  I don't mean just artists, either.


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## N3X15 (Nov 17, 2006)

Tamen said:
			
		

> Just curious, anyone have any idea just how many people left FA due to the recent events?  Not sure if it's really a mass exodus, as people were flailing about and proclaiming it to be, or if it really didn't have much of an impact on the user base.  I don't mean just artists, either.



Lets put it this way: If a mass exodus did occur, we wouldn';t be having so many problems with slowdowns


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 17, 2006)

The thing is as well, I wouldn't be surprised even if those that "left" still use their accounts and just lurk. It's not like there's an activity button that detects their movements.


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## Tamen (Nov 17, 2006)

N3X15 said:
			
		

> Lets put it this way: If a mass exodus did occur, we wouldn';t be having so many problems with slowdowns




Well, I thought that might be an overload from the drama, or from the 40+ journal entries per day I was getting, and people visiting them and saving art before people tug it out, as well as people pulling entire galleries offline.


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## Pumeleon (Nov 17, 2006)

Is it just me? Or does all of this smack of being in, I don't know, BIZARRO FA?

I mean, I know that it's human nature to devalue someone else to relatively increase one's own self-worth, but we're thrusting ourselves into the same pot that SA and 4chan attempts to put us. "You're a sexual deviant, and I'm morally righteous! Oooh! /b/!" seems about as correct as "You're a pedophile and a child molester! Oooh! Rape!"

We're supposed to be an accepting subculture. We're supposed to be the friendliest subculture. We're not supposed to hate someone because of what a person likes, especially when there's no victim.

However, this victory does not and should not give the winners a right to proclaim that the subject matter in question is at all appropriate. But nobody, especially the ones in charge, should try to steer anyone else's moral compass. "Not appropriate" should never mean "Not allowed" in a community like this. If you want to view or draw matieral of that nature, be free to do so. The only thing that attrites humanity's conscience is bottling up urges and emotions. Channeling these urges is healthy, bottling them up until you act on them is not.

I understand that this sentiment has been expressed a few times prior to my arrival, and I do apologize if I seem like I'm beating a dead horse.


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## Tamen (Nov 17, 2006)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> The thing is as well, I wouldn't be surprised even if those that "left" still use their accounts and just lurk. It's not like there's an activity button that detects their movements.



This is true.   I don't know, I'd just like to find out if it was all thunder with no action, or if there was any real effect to the community as far as participation.  I'd also noticed that there was money begging going on, and happened to be curious as to if the drama might have driven people off from a site that they no longer feels represents them.


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## Tamen (Nov 17, 2006)

Pumeleon said:
			
		

> Is it just me? Or does all of this smack of being in, I don't know, BIZARRO FA?
> 
> I mean, I know that it's human nature to devalue someone else to relatively increase one's own self-worth, but we're thrusting ourselves into the same pot that SA and 4chan attempts to put us. "You're a sexual deviant, and I'm morally righteous! Oooh! /b/!" seems about as correct as "You're a pedophile and a child molester! Oooh! Rape!"
> 
> ...



Not sure what this had to do with the question I asked.  I'm sure we're all painfully aware of the opinions of both sides regarding the issue. But, let's see...

There's no such thing as a perfectly friendly subculture.  Regardless of where one is, there'll always be the people seen as the bottom of the barrel, able to be the ones we can refer to when we say, "Well, sure, it's a little twisted, but it's not as bad as [insert fetish/mental disease here]."

I'm all for things being removed, but it's because of my personal tastes and my own personal experience, which makes me think that some things aren't appropriate in general. 

And people wonder why they get stares when asking for certain images...


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## Pumeleon (Nov 17, 2006)

Tamen said:
			
		

> Not sure what this had to do with the question I asked.Â Â I'm sure we're all painfully aware of the opinions of both sides regarding the issue. But, let's see...
> 
> There's no such thing as a perfectly friendly subculture.Â Â Regardless of where one is, there'll always be the people seen as the bottom of the barrel, able to be the ones we can refer to when we say, "Well, sure, it's a little twisted, but it's not as bad as [insert fetish/mental disease here]."
> 
> ...



I was simply commenting on my complete astonishment at why people are leaving over this.


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## Damaratus (Nov 17, 2006)

Tamen said:
			
		

> I'm all for things being removed, but it's because of my personal tastes and my own personal experience, which makes me think that some things aren't appropriate in general.
> 
> And people wonder why they get stares when asking for certain images...



Oddly enough I've found that the people who are really into such things ususally do not just flagrantly ask others for those images.  They keep in closer knit groups and only ask for images from people who they have confirmed will actually draw such things.  It's kind of a fetish etiquette I guess.

It happens the same way with regular (non-furry) fetish groups too, most of the time those people keep to their own ways without imposing much on the public.  It's why whenever something like that becomes more visible it can cause problems.  Ingnorance is bliss much of the time, as long as someone doesn't know of its existence or has knowlege of it but doesn't have to see it, there is usually conservation of status quo.


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## shy (Nov 17, 2006)

A lot of people on my list left. People I actually enjoyed following.
Made me sad, I only want to host my own art in 1 location.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 17, 2006)

What is "a lot"

If you only watched 5 people and 3 left that can be considered "A lot"

But there are 30,000 accounts so that number may be insignificant overall.

I know people just not using the site because it is having issues more than the cub thing.


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## Master_Oki_Akai (Nov 17, 2006)

Yeah I'd like to see some numbers myself, more for my own edification than anything else

A: how many left because of the cub thing
B: how many have been left inactive for 6 months to a year or more
C: how many accounts have been made that have NO submissions (basically watchers)
D: how many accounts are mules
E: just what percentage of total pics submitted ar4e actually mature / adult content


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## Damaratus (Nov 17, 2006)

Master_Oki_Akai said:
			
		

> Yeah I'd like to see some numbers myself, more for my own edification than anything else
> 
> A: how many left because of the cub thing
> B: how many have been left inactive for 6 months to a year or more
> ...




Something tells me that it isn't worth the trouble of picking out those numbers.   The only thing it would lead to is more arguments about things.  Best if you just use the site if you like it, leave and come back (or bear with it) if you have problems with the speed and database work, or leave if you have issues.

Speculation on numbers isn't really helping things to progress.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 17, 2006)

Actually I think people should register the accounts "alot" "popularartists" and "everyone" so they can justify arguments


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## Metabird (Nov 17, 2006)

Hrm... idle observation on my part depicted I'd say 7 or 8 furs leaving because of the cub debacle.  3 were high-end artists like Chris Sawyer, 1 was an up-and-coming type.

2 of said 8 had actually put up art within the last 2 months... and 1 of them left in a huff, came back a week later and posted something... then left for a *COMPLETELY* different reason.

---

Given my limited view of the fandom and inability to read everyones' posts simeltaneously, I'd guess we lost maybe 75-100 members because of this.  That's not a particularly big number compared to how many of us actually use FA.  Actually, I'd say we lost a bigger number from the rampant slowdowns (most of which will very likely come back once the problem gets fixed with any sign of certainity).

P.S:  Speculation isn't helping anything... but ehh, unless another fight breaks out it isn't hurting either.  If anyone wants to go hunt down artists and watchers and do a demographic survey on them, feel free.  ;p


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## XianJaguar (Nov 17, 2006)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> What is "a lot"
> 
> If you only watched 5 people and 3 left that can be considered "A lot"
> 
> ...



To be fair, out of those 30,000 accounts, many are 'fans', and only a fraction are going to be 2-D or 3-D artists (I'm not counting writers or musicians), and of those, only a fraction will be artists that are *widely* watched. I lost roughly 30-40 artists from my watch list, and most of them were the very-talented, well-known sort. 
Luckily, there's still plenty of good artists who did NOT leave (yay!), but still, I think the loss that we did have was sad.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 17, 2006)

Right, I'm not arguing that artists left. Even that's debatable because removing your art from the account still doesn't mean they're not lurking. They don't make comments or whatnot. 

My perspective is of a grand scheme of things, even if they're widely watched it's really still minuscule. Let's take a sliver of those popular artists or well known ones. For the most part I've only seen 10% of the site still watching them. Usually watchers these are the same people who watch almost anyone or lurk anyways.

I'm not even upset they left because a lot of artists I've known to have left, and deleted galleries for other reasons than "cub porn" so in my jaded perspective, if it wasn't this it would be some other drama issue, or they simply become tired of the site and move on.

That is internet life I guess. It happened when I was on other community related sites and I know it will keep happening, till the next jump in social networking occurs.


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## RailRide (Nov 21, 2006)

Pumeleon said:
			
		

> I was simply commenting on my complete astonishment at why people are leaving over this.



They didn't know that this sort of material was being posted with the tacit 'approval' of the administration (and it was supposed to be disallowed anyway). When it came out that cub pr0n was not only being posted, but was on the verge of being _officially allowed_, they took off. The material crossed their personal line by a wide margin and they didn't want the slightest association with it. That or they had to be around/interact with folks who would view the material in the same light as real CP and react accordingly. 

At least that was the general sentiment of the active artists on my watchlist who left journals explaining their departure (and they were all among the better-skilled artists on it). 

---PCJ


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## uncia2000 (Nov 21, 2006)

RailRide said:
			
		

> They didn't know that this sort of material was being posted with the tacit 'approval' of the administration (and it was supposed to be disallowed anyway). When it came out that cub pr0n was not only being posted, but was on the verge of being _officially allowed_, they took off.



No such announcement was ever made, afaik. If people might bother to ask first, rather than _assume_...
Just as is happening now with the retrospective history that some are circulating as "fact".

And a fair number of submissions were removed, when reported; via TT, too. (Not the ones which showed traditionally "younger" characters in an obviously sexually mature context, of course).
The various people who are going around stating that no submissions were removed simply have their facts wrong. End of story...

d.


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## kontonno (Nov 21, 2006)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> Master_Oki_Akai said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Usually I would argue otherwise. I think dodging, and neglecting any issue or curiosity doesn't exactally solve anything either. In this instance you're probably right. People are people, and people are ignorant. I could easily see how this would start a verbal scuffle.


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## RailRide (Nov 21, 2006)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> No such announcement was ever made, afaik. If people might bother to ask first, rather than _assume_...
> Just as is happening now with the retrospective history that some are circulating as "fact".
> 
> And a fair number of submissions were removed, when reported; via TT, too. (Not the ones which showed traditionally "younger" characters in an obviously sexually mature context, of course).
> The various people who are going around stating that no submissions were removed simply have their facts wrong. End of story...



Didn't say anything about an announcement being made. Simply put,Â the folks on my watchlist who left (and said so in their journals) were content to post their art here until "that" issue blew up on the forum, and withdrew their participation when the prohibition on such artwork was not upheld. It's not a great stretch of the imagination to assume that others I wasn't watching who also left did so for pretty much the same reason.

---PCJ


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## uncia2000 (Nov 21, 2006)

RailRide said:
			
		

> Didn't say anything about an announcement being made.



Neither did I. There was indeed no such announcement, to the best of my knowledge.



> RailRide said:
> 
> 
> 
> > When it came out that cub pr0n was not only being posted, but was on the verge of being _officially allowed_, they took off.



Which rather underlines the major _assumptions_ that some people had been making despite no firm evidence to support that viewpoint.
Various submissions were still being deleted, with the only change being an increase in the gray area whilst we were on hold pending a ToS rewrite/clarification. Didn't get the opportunity for that since we were lynched first by people who were running off such assumptions and understandably heart-felt convictions.
Deletions would have been retrospectively enforced, if required, but our current software does /not/ provide "undeletions".

There was no particular flood of people reporting "underage" content in the month leading up to the debacle and several of those simply that were simply required clarification rather than a mob mentality; e.g. http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=3777



			
				RailRide said:
			
		

> Simply put, the folks on my watchlist who left (and said so in their journals) were content to post their art here until "that" issue blew up on the forum



*nods*. The "issue" blew up.
But the "issue" was based on those _assumptions_, rather than actual facts.



			
				RailRide said:
			
		

> , and withdrew their participation when the prohibition on such artwork was not upheld.



As far as I'm aware (and I missed the first 24-36 hours, but have read back), there was no list of stated violations supplied at that point for any rational assessment/action admin-side and clarification of the current state-of-play. Therefore there wasn't anything to be "upheld", or not: just a flood of vitriol, resultant over-polarisation and a badly-judged poll in response to that.

That's the view from over here, not that I'm claiming any particular monopoly on the definitive history of what happened.
But I trust that's still of some "value" in context, anyhow...

Regards,
David.


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## Wyrwulf (Nov 22, 2006)

The question isn't how many people left, it's how many will still be gone six months from now.


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## uncia2000 (Nov 22, 2006)

Wyrwulf said:
			
		

> The question isn't how many people left, it's how many will still be gone six months from now.



Well, we're still getting a steady stream of new people into the community, too, aside from _that_ question.
Good to see, anyhow. (_*purrs to y'all*_)


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