# Immediate admin actions



## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

If an admin removes something, it can't be undone. If it's later decided that it was mistake, it can't be reverted.

This poses a big problem. Posting a submission isn't just attaching a picture. It's writing a long description with all details, it's filling all necessary tags to make searching easier. And what's much more important and can't be redone at all, are a lot of comments.

I've seen it in the past. Drage's gallery is wiped out, but after some discussion Dragoneer decided that animating adds enough original content to use third party models.

Now it happened to MY gallery (alternative gallery, not the one linked to my forum account). Admins haven't decided if feral cub porn should be allowed (er... what? haven't it been posted on the forum that this is already clarified thing?), but gallery is gone. All I have is an "apology" from an admin.

I don't have backups. I hoped that decisions of admins are consistent, but I was wrong. Either admins decide for or against feral cubs after all, I need to post submissions again, either here or in some other place. I can't do it easily, because absolutely nothing is saved.

My proposition:

Either:
a) Give violators a day or two to react. In case they can't prove they're right, at least they'll have time to save necessary information before removal.
Or:
b) Make removal soft. That is, removed content should still be viewable by admins, just hidden from others. It will make decisions undoable. And in case information needs to be saved, it can be restored for a few minutes just to save it.

Considering almost nothing new is developed on FA, the latter seems unlikely. So please, consider the first option.

Now, I understand when a new user just copies someone else's picture and posts it. It can be removed safely. But please consider caring a bit more about submissions which are a few years old, have dozens of comments and hundreds of favs.

Current situation is ridiculous. I must live in constant fear that something will be removed for random reasons. I must backup my whole gallery daily. This is unpractical.


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## Irf (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree, in addition to the evident violations or moderator errors there might be border cases and doubtful situations, where even if an item is considered subject to deletion finally, the member cannot be accused of direct rules breaching or malicious intent. Such case would be worth some "grace period", if the first two cases may seem not obvious, so the feature requested might prove nice.

Personally, while I have not any cub or cub-like things in my gallery, I have saved in advance the pages that may look suspicious in that aspect (due to size difference, faulty proportions etc).


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## Grimfang (Jan 13, 2011)

I wasn't going to reply with anything in this thread until I saw this last paragraph of yours:



Athari said:


> Current situation is ridiculous. I must live in constant fear that something will be removed for random reasons. I must backup my whole gallery daily. This is unpractical.


 
So, I just want to throw this out here (from the TOS):
"*Fur Affinity IS NOT a backup service*, and we are not responsible for long term archival of user data or loss of files. *We encourage users to keep regular backups and archives of their data* using a service and/or storage media intended for that purpose."

That's far from unpractical. It's unreasonable to blame the staff for loss of data.
It's run by volunteer work, and everyone knows it's not exactly stable 100% of the time. Why would you expect your information to be safely backed up under those conditions, and on a free site?

Now, if the staff wants to implement some sort of grace period, or some sort of "soft-delete phase", that's their optional burden. I'm pretty sure they've got _a lot_ of shit to work on already though.


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## LizardKing (Jan 13, 2011)

I read this as Immediate Action Admins, which sounds like some kind of high-priority task force for deleting dogcock and such.


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

Grimfang said:


> That's far from unpractical. It's unreasonable to blame the staff for loss of data.
> It's run by volunteer work, and everyone knows it's not exactly stable 100% of the time. Why would you expect your information to be safely backed up under those conditions, and on a free site?
> 
> Now, if the staff wants to implement some sort of grace period, or some sort of "soft-delete phase", that's their optional burden. I'm pretty sure they've got _a lot_ of shit to work on already though.



You get everything for free, blah-blah-blah, don't complain, blah-blah-blah, no one cares, blah-blah-blah, be happy with what you get, blah-blah-blah. So stereotypical.

This attitude is completely wrong. I don't blame anyone (well, expect for rules consistency, but that's another matter), because the system is the way it is right now. I don't force anyone to implement my idea (I see some disadvantages of it). I don't ask to make FA do what it isn't designed to do. (It won't make FA a backup service anyway. There will still be hackers getting admin accounts. There will still be hardware failures.)

I just see a serious, in my opinion, problem, see its possible solution. Why shouldn't I suggest it? Users will benefit it. And it's rather easy to implement (both a and b).

And don't tell me the 'b' solution is complex. If there were some programmers really working on FA, it could easily be implemented. I'm a programmer with good experience, don't try to fool me.


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## 9_6 (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> Admins haven't decided if feral cub porn should be allowed



You've got to be kidding...


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## Verin Asper (Jan 13, 2011)

9_6 said:


> You've got to be kidding...


 its probably cause of that ruling of Pokemon and Digimon are beast


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

9_6 said:


> You've got to be kidding...


That's what the admin who wiped out my gallery said.


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## CerbrusNL (Jan 13, 2011)

The problem with solution B:

-<Bestiality/Loli/Cub/Human nudity submission X> gets soft deleted.
-FA still gets sued for hosting Illegal content
-"But the users can't see the hosted stuff!"
-"The admin team still can."

Besides, What's the trouble of copy-pasting your tags / submission info to a notepad file?
I always backup my submissions, (and submission info when I feel it's relevant), so I don't have to rely on others to have my files.


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## Aden (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree with both sides here.

On one hand, no, FA is not a backup service. A responsible person should be keeping their own local backups, and if they write an irreplaceable description then they should copy it down somewhere and save it.

On the other hand, it would be decent of admins to give offenders a day or two to remove their own things. However, this is not a black-and-white blanket statement. A competent admin wouldn't and shouldn't give a bestiality photo any more time on the site than it takes to press the delete button, for example. Nor should they allow things like cub porn to stay up for any extra amount of time due to the potential legal issues of consciously doing nothing for a period of time. On-the-fence things like OP's case? Let it up there.

But of course this would mean a restructuring of how TTs are handled which might not be prudent until they're more whittled down


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> -"But the users can't see the hosted stuff!"
> -"The admin team still can."


Is it a joke or you just didn't think long enough?  Do you realise that the only people who can sue FA in this situation are FA admins? If it happens, you just make the evil admin a usual user â€” and voila, no one can prove you have "illegal" content.



CerbrusNL said:


> Besides, What's the trouble of copy-pasting your tags / submission info to a notepad file?


Absence of submissions, you know. And in the first place, false beliefs in rules consistency.


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## 9_6 (Jan 13, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> Besides, What's the trouble of copy-pasting your tags / submission info to a notepad file?



Sounds like awesome fun times to do if you have ~300 submissions.
And you still have to open a ton of files and copypaste everything in place again to resubmit the submissions.
I'm pretty sure you'd be just as well off retyping stuff unless it's an essay.


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

Aden said:


> Nor should they allow things like cub porn to stay up for any extra amount of time due to the potential legal issues of consciously doing nothing for a period of time.


One day won't make any difference, considering it'll take months to remove all cub porn. And don't get into this "potential legal issues" please. Everyone knows by now that cub porn is perfectly legal, just payment processors don't like it.


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## Grimfang (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> You get everything for free, blah-blah-blah, don't complain, blah-blah-blah, no one cares, blah-blah-blah, be happy with what you get, blah-blah-blah. So stereotypical.
> 
> This attitude is completely wrong.



Stereotypical? I'm not the one whining about feral cub porn. 

You came on really strong. That's all I was getting at.


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## Aden (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> One day won't make any difference, considering it'll take months to remove all cub porn. And don't get into this "potential legal issues" please. Everyone knows by now that cub porn is perfectly legal, just payment processors don't like it.


 
The payment processors don't like it because someone got ruled against in court for possessing drawn child porn. Thus making it a legal issue.


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## CerbrusNL (Jan 13, 2011)

9_6 said:


> Sounds like awesome fun times to do if you have ~300 submissions.
> And you still have to open a ton of files and copypaste everything in place again to resubmit the submissions.
> I'm pretty sure you'd be just as well off retyping stuff unless it's an essay.


 I mean, when you submit something, type up your submission info, and copy it to a .txt while you're at it.


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

Grimfang said:


> Stereotypical? I'm not the one whining about feral cub porn.


I'm not whining about feral cub porn, I'm whining about unpredictable administrative actions which cannot be fixed.

I wouldn't whine if admins said all cub porn was banned. I would have just saved everything and moved to other place, without any complaints. The problem is, I can't do that now. And I've seen others in the same situation.


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## Verin Asper (Jan 13, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> I mean, when you submit something, type up your submission info, and copy it to a .txt while you're at it.


 I tend to keep my stuff simple, mainly who its for or who appears in the pic and who the one who drew it. in a file


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## Cyanide_tiger (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh this thread makes me happy in ways I can't explain. The sheer entertainment value of it is incredible! 

On topic: The administration and moderation is what it is, and I highly doubt anything will come of whining about it. OP, you made a mistake. Learn from it. Cut your losses, salvage what you can. Move on.


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## 9_6 (Jan 13, 2011)

Cyanide_tiger said:


> OP, you made a mistake. Learn from it.



What mistake?


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## Cyanide_tiger (Jan 13, 2011)

9_6 said:


> What mistake?



Not backing up his submissions.


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## Icky (Jan 13, 2011)

Cyanide_tiger said:


> Not backing up his submissions.


 
I was going to say his mistake was drawing cub art.

But yours works.


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## 9_6 (Jan 13, 2011)

Icky said:


> I was going to say his mistake was drawing cub art.
> 
> But yours works.



It's the only one that works.

This is about feral thingies. Cubs are anthro. "Cubs" as in "child with animal ears and a tail".
Let's not throw them into one pot for semantics sake.
Last thing I know, it has been made very clear that if it's an animal, it's not gonna be affected no matter the "age".

Also the admin made an apology. That doesn't indicate any sort of mistake on behalf of the OP.
Other than posting art on FA and not being paranoid, of course.


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## Icky (Jan 13, 2011)

9_6 said:


> It's the only one that works.
> 
> This is about feral thingies. *Cubs are anthro.*
> Let's not throw them into one pot for semantics sake.
> ...



uh, you _do_ know where the term "cub" is traditionally used, right?


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## 9_6 (Jan 13, 2011)

Icky said:


> uh, you _do_ know where the term "cub" is traditionally used, right?



Come on, you know we're not talking about animal cubs and I already said something about semantics.
You wouldn't smoke tobacco out of this:


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

Guys, stop offtopic please! I'd like to see FA admin reply in this thread BEFORE forum mods will have to close the thread.

Please, the thread is about ability to revert admin actions, not about cub porn of feral cub porn!


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## Icky (Jan 13, 2011)

9_6 said:


> Come on, you know we're not talking about animal cubs and I already said something about semantics.
> You wouldn't smoke tobacco out of this:


The point was that feral cub porn is just as doable as anthro cub porn.


Athari said:


> Guys, stop offtopic please! I'd like to see FA admin reply in this thread BEFORE forum mods will have to close the thread.
> 
> Please, the thread is about ability to revert admin actions, not about cub porn of feral cub porn!


Well, why did you post a thread if you didn't want people to talk in it? Send an admin a PM or something.


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

Icky said:


> Well, why did you post a thread if you didn't want people to talk in it? Send an admin a PM or something.


I've created the topic so that people could discuss the features I suggest, not discuss some random things they like flaming about, like cub porn or smoking. If you don't know what threads on the forum are for, go read the rules, especially the one about writing offtopic.


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## Monster. (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm still trying to understand what you're asking for; are you asking for FA to have back-ups for entries wrongly erased?


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## Icky (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> I've created the topic so that people could discuss the features I suggest, not discuss some random things they like flaming about, like cub porn or smoking. If you don't know what threads on the forum are for, go read the rules, especially the one about writing offtopic.


 
I know what the rules are here :l 

Once you hit that button to post your thread, the conversation is out of your hands, and it's up to the forumgoers to steer it the way they want to discuss.


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## Athari (Jan 13, 2011)

Miss Haha said:


> I'm still trying to understand what you're asking for; are you asking for FA to have back-ups for entries wrongly erased?


Yes, it would be a perfect solution to mark entries as deleted (and hide from non-admins), not to delete the entry completely.

However, considering this solution needs a programmer to implement it (and indefinite time), another solution is for admins first to notify about removal and take action only after a day or two. This way, submitter can do something about it: discuss with the admin, create backups etc.

I hope it's not a common practice to remove art which has been on FA for years and received dozens or even hundreds of comments and favs, so it shouldn't turn out to be serious burden.


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## Monster. (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> Yes, it would be a perfect solution to mark entries as deleted (and hide from non-admins), not to delete the entry completely.
> 
> However, considering this solution needs a programmer to implement it (and indefinite time), another solution is for admins first to notify about removal and take action only after a day or two. This way, submitter can do something about it: discuss with the admin, create backups etc.
> 
> I hope it's not a common practice to remove art which has been on FA for years and received dozens or even hundreds of comments and favs, so it shouldn't turn out to be serious burden.


 
Ohhhhh now I understand. Well, FA DOES say it's doesn't do back-ups. I doubt they'll change that policy just because of one person complaining.


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## Smelge (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> Yes, it would be a perfect solution to mark entries as deleted (and hide from non-admins), not to delete the entry completely.
> 
> However, considering this solution needs a programmer to implement it (and indefinite time), another solution is for admins first to notify about removal and take action only after a day or two. This way, submitter can do something about it: discuss with the admin, create backups etc.
> 
> I hope it's not a common practice to remove art which has been on FA for years and received dozens or even hundreds of comments and favs, so it shouldn't turn out to be serious burden.


 
FA Admin have responded. They don't keep back-ups or whatever because of the legal risk. besides, what's the point in saving something that most likely should be deleted? I suspect the majority of stuff deleted is stuff that should be, with only a small amount being incorrect decisions. You're suggesting changing the site for a tiny minority.


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## DragonTalon (Jan 13, 2011)

I think the thread got a bit derailed.

Say a perfectly legal and valid submission of mine gets deleted by an admin by mistake.  They misread the rules, clicked the wrong link, whatever.

Now all those comments and views and favorites are gone.  I can re-submit but nothing can bring it all back.

That would upset me a lot if it happened.  Nobody is perfect, and with a site as large as FA the occasional mistake will be made.  

 A soft-delete option would be nice, but possibly unfeasible with the current code base.  I am curious though... can submissions (with comments) be recovered from backup?  If so then we have a solution, just one that is probably a major pain in the rear to do on a regular basis.


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## Firehazard (Jan 13, 2011)

This is a legitimate concern, I think. Even if someone has local copies of all their stuff, they'd still have to re-submit it, and they'll still have their entire history on the site wiped. All the comments, all the history, all the view stats, gone forever. All because some admin misunderstood the rules.

Any other site probably would be designed to use soft-delete for cases like this. This one was coded under a tight deadline (i.e. "gotta get it up and running before some better programmer gets a rival site out"), so they left out a lot of things they probably planned to add in later.


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## ArielMT (Jan 13, 2011)

I speak as an outside observer, not as an admin.



Athari said:


> However, considering this solution needs a programmer to implement it (and indefinite time), another solution is for admins first to notify about removal and take action only after a day or two. This way, submitter can do something about it: discuss with the admin, create backups etc.



As was already pointed out, this is completely at the admins' discretion, not required.



Athari said:


> I hope it's not a common practice to remove art which has been on FA for years and received dozens or even hundreds of comments and favs, so it shouldn't turn out to be serious burden.



It is common practice to remove submissions breaking site rules as admins discover them, regardless of how or when they're discovered, pretty much like it is at any Web site with user-driven content.


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## Taralack (Jan 13, 2011)

Athari said:


> I hope it's not a common practice to remove art which has been on FA for years and received dozens or even hundreds of comments and favs, so it shouldn't turn out to be serious burden.


 
If said submission violates the TOS, how popular it is shouldn't matter.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 13, 2011)

Aden said:


> On the other hand, it would be decent of admins to give offenders a day or two to remove their own things. However, this is not a black-and-white blanket statement. A competent admin wouldn't and shouldn't give a bestiality photo any more time on the site than it takes to press the delete button, for example. Nor should they allow things like cub porn to stay up for any extra amount of time due to the potential legal issues of consciously doing nothing for a period of time. On-the-fence things like OP's case? Let it up there.


 
There was a grace period if I recall correctly on how long cub can stay up. Past that grace period it was to be taken down. There was also grace period on re-colors and other works that now violates the AUP. It would probably be nice if we can post big obnoxious nags before someone one can access their account  but usually there is a newsticker on the person's page that tells you if something like the AUP changed and the URL to read it.

As for other submissions that are violations, sometimes a notification is sent but if the artwork is blatant like TommyTheTracer it can be removed on spot.


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## Athari (Jan 14, 2011)

Smelge said:


> besides, what's the point in saving something that most likely should be deleted? I suspect the majority of stuff deleted is stuff that should be, with only a small amount being incorrect decisions. You're suggesting changing the site for a tiny minority.


One of the reasons why life sentence is used almost always instead of death penalty in the modern world is because law system makes mistakes. No one says it happens often, but when it happens (and you can't do anything about it), the price is too high. Wrong decision can't be undone, a dead person can't be brought back to life. A lot of countries have banned death penalty altogether.

We could know about frequency of wrong admin decisions only if admins tell it. Anyway, wiping out a whole gallery is more like death penalty, not like taking into jail in a police station for pre-charge detention. The price of losing a whole gallery is too high. First you're shot dead, then the admin begins to ask questions. In my opinion, this is a wrong sequence and must be reversed.


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## Accountability (Jan 14, 2011)

Do you see the one labeled "Bahamut"? That's the backup server. It backs up FurAffinity. In fact, FurAffinity is able to recover the galleries deleted in the hacking last month from that very server.

To say that they can't restore this kind of stuff is wrong. They can. They have equipment dedicated to making backups of _both the data and the database_. They just don't want to, because you're not important enough to warrant it. Restoring things from backup is a privilege reserved to popufurs who live on +favs and watches.

Am I saying it's easy to restore things from the backups? No. Is it something that could be automated? Yes. Is it something FA should do when they're in the wrong and delete a gallery and later decide they made a mistake? Absolutely.


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## Athari (Jan 14, 2011)

Accountability said:


> To say that they can't restore this kind of stuff is wrong. They can. They have equipment dedicated to making backups of _both the data and the database_. They just don't want to, because you're not important enough to warrant it. Restoring things from backup is a privilege reserved to popufurs who live on +favs and watches.


Popufurs you say? Ha. Quote from Fisk's journal:

*FA Gallery Restoration*

I've organized my work to restore on FA. I've come to the realization that the admins have put restoring the damage done at such a low priority, I'd rather go in and just repost. It will put a few things out of order, but I'd rather have that, than sit around waiting on someone else for months, or longer.

It's not going to be a comprehensive re-upload. There may be some things I don't include, and I actually ran across some other things that I didn't include before, that I'll go ahead and put up this time. I'm just putting up things that I want there, so don't send me messages saying "there was this one pic I remember that you forgot" etc.. etc..

All in all, there are some 52 images I'll be uploading to my regular and scrap galleries this weekend.​Apparently, even a "popufur" with 500.000 pageviews and 100.000 favs isn't popular enough to deserve an hour of admin's work.



Accountability said:


> Is it something that could be automated? Yes.


Well... technically yes, but it's unpractical. These backups contain too much data which isn't very easy to get a little piece of information from. Soft-deleting is the proper solution here.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 14, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> There was a grace period if I recall correctly on how long cub can stay up. Past that grace period it was to be taken down.


I will note that when the grace period was given, users were also promised a more detailed document detailing what would and would not be considered breaking the no-minors-in-sexual-situations (can we _please_ not call it "cub" when the AUP clearly states "anything human-like under 18"? I know the AUP uses the phrase "cub" as well, but it's ridiculous to call a 17-year-old a "cub") rule. This document was never produced. In light of that I do believe it would be a display of good faith on the admins' part to only immediately delete things that are _undoubtedly_ against the AUP.


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## Accountability (Jan 14, 2011)

Athari said:


> Soft-deleting is the proper solution here.


 
Yes, you're absolutely right. This is probably something that could even be done with existing features (something like a second, hidden "Scraps" gallery that only administrators can toggle or a rating higher than Adult that only administrators can toggle). My point was that until something like that is in place, FA should restore wrongfully deleted galleries from backup. Why? The work they'd have to do to restore stuff would make them think twice before going "OMG RULEBREAKING DELETE NAO".


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## Athari (Jan 14, 2011)

Accountability said:


> The work they'd have to do to restore stuff would make them think twice before going "OMG RULEBREAKING DELETE NAO".


I'm afraid that admins who randomly delete stuff aren't the same admins who are capable of restoring data from backups, which is much more complex task than hitting a delete button. You'll â€œpunishâ€ those who aren't guilty, it won't educate anyone.


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## Accountability (Jan 14, 2011)

Athari said:


> I'm afraid that admins who randomly delete stuff aren't the same admins who are capable of restoring data from backups, which is much more complex task than hitting a delete button. You'll â€œpunishâ€ those who aren't guilty, it won't educate anyone.



You have a point, but it was my idea that the pressure from the developer admins would help balance this out. Something like

Admin X: "Hey Dev Y could you restore User Z's gallery? I deleted it all because I thought I saw a red bandanna on his wolf character."
Dev Y: "Ugh not this again! Stop deleting everyone's work!!!"

The "not wanting to restore from backup" would also be motivation to make a moderated, hidden image status.

 That's just my management style I guess.


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## Leon Hunter (Jan 14, 2011)

Itâ€™s funny. You can draw four legged feral creatures with two eyes, clearly immature looking, fucking each other and call them 'pokemon' but you cant draw the same thing and call it a cub?

The double standards blew me off my chair, I wonder if it has anything to do with Dragoneer being a Digimon?

In any instance the answer is simple, Move to InkBunny, they donâ€™t pull this kind of shit, they can restore deleted work and they have a nice script to import your FA gallery across automatically (which you probably wont need now) and best of all, its a shit load more secure than the steaming pile that FA is, right down to forcing HTTPS.

What kind of site implements the ability for admins to read private notes from the front end, but not to undo admin actions? Thatâ€™s right, the sort that has its priorities wrong. Allot of sites run with the "Donâ€™t fuck the user" core value, and yet fucking the user is exactly what FA does every day. The random deletions, poor interface, massive loopholes in security etc etc. Admins should only do stuff if they are willing to fix it back up if they were wrong. Hell, FA takes the forums offline for ages to fix the issue and as soon as they came back up they got hacked AGAIN. No big surprise seems the incompetency knows no bounds.

And the lack of morals from some the staff is mind blowing, if you go into someoneâ€™s home and you break something you offer to replace it right? So when an admin goes into a gallery of another user, deletes everything and then its established that it was the wrong course of action, you should put it back how it was right? _(But instead when the user is obviously upset about what happened, we got admins and mods basically telling them to fuck off. Yeah, nice one.)_

Thatâ€™s the ethical thing to do, obviously FA doesnâ€™t give a rats about ethics and is more interested in citing "We offer this service to you for free" blah blah as an excuse (not remembering the site is paid for by DONATIONS from its USERS and people who ADVERTISE on it). My response to that is that there is an implied duty of care to ensure that service is there and isnâ€™t fucked around with. If you're going to offer to host peoples galleries you should consider THAT a privilege and do it properly. If Google started chanting that line no on would use gmail, instead they fix their issues on the spot an apologise.

When you add on top of the above the sheer arrogance of _some_ of the FA staff, it becomes ever so clear that they're just happy running the site into the ground. They donâ€™t even accept free outside help (with the code base) when its offered so things arenâ€™t going to get any better. They're playing the game of "We're the largest site so we'll be fine" without fully understanding that the largest site, isnâ€™t necessarily the best and sooner or later users will just have had enough of it. Between users going to other sites and seeing how nice they look and all the features and friendly admins as opposed to their current one and watching thier friends migrate across because they've had enough, other people will follow too. Hotmail used to be the titan of free email, now Gmail is.

</rant>

Edit: I agree with the idea of soft removals strongly, make it so that when something is deleted its still visable to admins for 14 days and a message is auto sent to the user explaining what was removed, when, by whom and why so the user can appeal if he or she wishes too. 14 days later (if its still soft-deleted) just permanently delete it with a script that runs on a daily basis that deletes all soft-deleted images older than 14 days. If such a feature is out of the ability of the FA developers, they shouldn't be on the internet (although after the recent spate of attacks and hacks I already think that).


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## Athari (Jan 15, 2011)

*Leon Hunter*, a lot of problems show up when the site grows and becomes _the_ furry art site. Being large is indeed a problem. I believe what you describe either wasn't a problem at first, or wasn't as serious. (Otherwise FA wouldn't have become the largest furry site.)

You can have nice admins on a small site. They're often your friends who you know very well. They're often active participants of the site who you notice as nice and wise members of the fandom. When the site becomes large, you run out of friends, and you don't have enough time to evaluate active participants. You have to choose admins paying less and less attention to who you choose, because not having enough admins is worse than having a few poor admins.

You can provide everything for free and pay out of your own pocket without any problems on a small site. When the site becomes large, you quickly run out of money and donations become critical. You raise your tail and let payment processors rape you with their policies, because otherwise you won't survive.

Still, FA is still the largest site and I definitely don't want to lose its audience.

InkBunny is nice, and it doesn't have the same inherent problems as FA, like poor code no one will every fix, but I'm afraid it'll face many problems FA faced when it grows larger. (Google, on the other hand, knows how to be large. This is one of the reasons they're so successful. But they face large problems from the very beginning, they index the whole damned Web.)

P.S. I've noticed a funny thing. The more negative, indifferent and/or insulting the message on the forum, the more users click on "This" button.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 15, 2011)

Leon Hunter said:


> Itâ€™s funny. You can draw four legged feral creatures with two eyes, clearly immature looking, fucking each other and call them 'pokemon' but you cant draw the same thing and call it a cub?
> 
> The double standards blew me off my chair, I wonder if it has anything to do with Dragoneer being a Digimon?



Oooor, it has something to do with an admin making a _mistake_. The AUP clearly states the rule limits adult art of underage characters with a human-like build. The fact that people (including the AUP) keep using the word "cub" to refer to this rule is probably why this mistake was made.

Honestly, the problem isn't really with admin actions being immediate and irreversible. The problem is with the administration not communicating clearly, internally _or_ with the users.


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