# The three basic things needed to be good at art.



## Nazoc (Jul 11, 2020)

In my experience, from talking with artists and seeing them talk about it amongst themselves in forums and the like, I've come to the conclusion that art requires that one _be born with _three basic abilities:

-an abnormally high level of dexterity
-a good sense of spatial cognition (for perspective and posing characters based off only a reference image of one pose)
-a good sense of memory (for remembering details about characters/backgrounds and the basic skills of art)

These are all things I am atrocious in. My hands are shaky as hell, my sense of spatial cognition is astoundingly awful, and ADHD has ravaged my sense of memory into nothingness. It's easy to tell why I'm not an artist (I'm a writer). Art requires a level of competence in these three categories from a very early age (there's a reason 99% of artists say "I started drawing at 6/7/8/kindergarten/grade school/etc.!"), and I simply wasn't born with the right genetics.

Oddly enough when I voice this to artists, they tend to tell me I'm wrong and "anyone can do art", but I have tried and I have failed enough times to know that art isn't something "anyone" can learn. Sure, you do practice these skills with it. But art requires a _base level of genetic competence _that I simply do not have. You need the base to grow a skill. You can't grow skill where there is none to begin with. Some people are born artists. Some people aren't. Life sucks, I guess, and you just deal with whatever awful hand you were dealt.

I find it odd so many people deny this.


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## inkbloom (Jul 11, 2020)

I do not agree that one absolutely must have those to be a good artists. It is certainly helpful, and might lead to more encouragement, an easier time learning, and an overall higher likelihood of success, but even those three things can be achieved through means rather than birth.

If your hands are shaky, you can do exercises to strengthen them, medication to steady them, or devices to correct for the motion. 
If you do not have good spatial cognition, you can use more references including 3D posing models, use art programs that let you manipulate your drawing, or develop a style that compliments your unique perspective.
If your memory is lacking, something I am incredibly familiar with, you can also use more references and refer to them often, keep detailed notes and come up with systems that work for you to keep things top of mind. 

Will it be more difficult for you? Oh, certainly. Will you need to work harder than someone who has traits better suited to traditional art? Oh my yes. Is it frustrating and disheartening? Absolutely. 
But is the way forward completely closed to you? No.


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## Nazoc (Jul 11, 2020)

Things like "effort" are a myth. Oh sure, artists can improve their skills--but they _improve what was already there_. No one can produce skill _ex nihilo_. Artless rabble such as myself are damned to forever be "artless". 

"Effort" and "practice" are jokes, _lies_; lies propagated by people who are unable, admittedly usually innocently, to comprehend the idea of being talentless, of being a bitter person who is well aware of and resigned to the fact that they are damned by their genetics to never produce anything of worth. All that matters is what you were born with. You are either born with worth, or you are born worthless like myself.


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## Vinfang (Jul 11, 2020)

I would say some arts favors certain traits over others.

In my experience, graphic designs definitely requires more of a natural taste / layout awareness for it to look simple n natural. (in which I am not good at, but a classmate of mine can whip out amazing layout & colour combinations, in 1~2 hrs or so.

Drawing / Sculpting on the other hand, favors keen eye for observation, good memory, and spacecial awareness. 

skills in which, a 3d animator does not nessarry needed to require, but mastering one medium can more or less help you in getting good on others.


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## inkbloom (Jul 11, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Things like "effort" are a myth. Oh sure, artists can improve their skills--but they _improve what was already there_. No one can produce skill _ex nihilo_. Artless rabble such as myself are damned to forever be "artless".
> 
> "Effort" and "practice" are jokes, _lies_; lies propagated by people who are unable, admittedly usually innocently, to comprehend the idea of being talentless, of being a bitter person who is well aware of and resigned to the fact that they are damned by their genetics to never produce anything of worth. All that matters is what you were born with. You are either born with worth, or you are born worthless like myself.


It saddens me greatly that you feel this way. I hope that this bitterness and self-defeatism leave you with time. 
Even if you decide art is not your calling, you are not worthless. May you see that.


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## MainHammond (Jul 11, 2020)

I strongly disagree.

I'm terrible at drawing. But during the quarantine I discovered that even I can draw something I can be proud of if I'm patient and I put my mind on it.


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## Glossolalia (Jul 11, 2020)

There's a reason so many artists are mysteriously resistant to your theory- it doesn't reflect reality. It sounds like you've already made up your mind, though. If it makes you feel more at peace about not producing art, you're free to believe what you like.


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## Vinfang (Jul 11, 2020)

MainHammond said:


> I strongly disagree.
> 
> I'm terrible at drawing. But I discovered that even I can draw something I can be proud of if I'm patient and I put my mind on it.



observation is the key.

but on the other side, let's have a look on rob liefeld. his passion helps him create, despite his lackluster skills (and his art does improve, just very slowly)

if you're certain you don't want to draw certain things, just leave them to others. Find a partner, I had a partner during high school, in which I draw all the males, and she draws all the females on our 2 individual projects.

there are jobs / careers for art specialists, inker, background painters, colourist, layout artists, etc.


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## RangerReb (Jul 11, 2020)

I will say having a steady hand is not everything. And I'm not sure everyone is born an artist, or even realize it. Take Joni Eareckson Tada.






I read up on her bio and I didn't read anything to tell me this woman did artistic things before her accident. She was more into horseback riding and other activities. She didn't start art in grade school or whenever like you said. And even if she did, she would have lost all of that ability after she was paralyzed. The remarkable thing is during occupational therapy, she learned to paint with a brush between her teeth and began selling her artwork. She wasn't born with the ability to make incredible pieces using only her mouth. Humans are not designed to work like that. That took incredible determination and practice. I guarantee you she did not create anything worth looking at, at first.

I do think art can be taught. Truly, you won't know if you're good at it until you've practiced for years. There's a 10,000 hours rule that I would bring up here, but it's heavily debated and you don't seem to be open to any argument so I will not build an argument around that point.

I don't think any one is saying that practice can make anyone an incredible artist. I do believe that some people are more inclined to being good at it than others. _But that doesn't mean that you could never improve your own skills if you practiced for long enough. _There are different skill levels in art. I will never be a Michelangelo. I will never be as good as even some artists on FA. But is that because I don't have any talent? I don't think so. And honestly, I don't think it makes me any less of an artist. You do not have to be a prodigy to be a good artist! Yes. You will likely never be in the top 1%, but neither will I. Really you have to decide if you're willing to be good without being great.

Effort plays a big role in art. I'm sorry, it's simply a fact. If you draw a stick figure and say it's crap and never draw again, then that's on you. I hate to be the devil's advocate but the only one that can get you to where you want to be is you. But if you're convinced you're not good at art, then that's fine. You don't need to be an artist! But please don't complain about it and be all woe is me that you didn't win the supposed "genectic lottery". Work on another craft instead if you've given up on art. You said you're a writer? Or you like to write? Work on that then. Study your craft and look at tutorials and read works from literary masters. Believe it or not, drawing is not the only art form out there.

I don't know what else to say really, since I think that you'll probably just gloss over this and not take to heart anything I've said. But I'll leave you here with two more things.


And this picture, which is an example from my own experience with practice:




Now, just imagine if I had quit drawing at the 2012 version, because I thought it didn't look "good enough" or I'm not "talented" like everyone else. I would have gone through life like you, thinking that I have no talent and that I just wasn't born to be an artist. I would never have improved and the 2017 would have never come to be. And that would be a shame, in my opinion.

You are your own worst critic.


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## Nazoc (Jul 11, 2020)

RangerReb said:


> I will say having a steady hand is not everything. And I'm not sure everyone is born an artist, or even realize it. Take Joni Eareckson Tada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whenever you artists tell me "look at my old work and look now!" the old work is still better than literally anything I could ever do and it really has about the _opposite_ effect that you're probably going for


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## MainHammond (Jul 11, 2020)

Sigh ..


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## RangerReb (Jul 11, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Whenever you artists tell me "look at my old work and look now!" the old work is still better than literally anything I could ever do and it really has about the _opposite_ effect that you're probably going for


I figured you would literally refuse to actually look at any of my points and actually try to refute them but whatever. If you think you're a lost cause then that's all you'll ever be. It's not my job to agree with your opinion and re-enforce your negative view of yourself and your abilities. You say it's better than anything you could ever do but I guarantee you that is not the case. I know from experience with other people like you that I have talked to that it is not. You have a poor self image when it comes to your abilities and no logic or arguments I attempt to use will convince you otherwise. At this point, you're the only one that can change yourself.

As I stated before. You are clearly your own worst critic.


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## Nazoc (Jul 11, 2020)

It's always the same thing, isn't it. Just "your attitude sucks" and other pointless platitudes.

The talent-privileged really cannot comprehend the life of the talent-less, huh.


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## RangerReb (Jul 11, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> It's always the same thing, isn't it. Just "your attitude sucks" and other pointless platitudes.
> 
> The talent-privileged really cannot comprehend the life of the talent-less, huh.


But I guarantee you you AREN'T talentless. You literally said you write, you're not an artist. Why don't you pursue writing then? Or something else? Why is it that you think that being an artist is the end all be all of talent? It's not. It isn't all black and white. You are not worthless just because in your mind you "can't" draw. Which, by the way, is not true. You can draw, you just can't draw art at the level you want to. Even a two year old can draw the most basic shapes. I guarantee you you could draw a square. You can draw a stick figure. You cannot convince me otherwise. And that is fair for me to say, because clearly no one can convince _you _otherwise. Everyone has something to offer in this world. I don't care if it's something as simple as being generous or being able to put a smile on someone's face.

Stop with this pity party BS.


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## MainHammond (Jul 11, 2020)

Maybe is that,maybe it's not.
One thing I can tell you for sure, here in furaffinity we will never see someone's work and say, it lack talent.


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## Nazoc (Jul 11, 2020)

RangerReb said:


> But I guarantee you you AREN'T talentless. You literally said you write, you're not an artist. Why don't you pursue writing then? Or something else? Why is it that you think that being an artist is the end all be all of talent? It's not. It isn't all black and white. You are not worthless just because in your mind you "can't" draw. Which, by the way, is not true. You can draw, you just can't draw art at the level you want to. Even a two year old can draw the most basic shapes. I guarantee you you could draw a square. You can draw a stick figure. You cannot convince me otherwise. And that is fair for me to say, because clearly no one can convince _you _otherwise. Everyone has something to offer in this world. I don't care if it's something as simple as being generous or being able to put a smile on someone's face.
> 
> Stop with this pity party BS.


I want to draw because I want to. Simple as that. I am a writer. I hate it. I imagine all my stories as visual media and it only _through resignation over my inability to draw_ that I sighed and picked up writing when I was like 8. 

But we all want a lot of things. We don't get everything we want, and must bitterly deal with whatever hand we have been dealt. Dealing with bitter resignation over my inability to draw has been a focus of my thoughts for at least five years at this point.


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## Vinfang (Jul 11, 2020)

it is about your passion. this artist that I worked with can paint photorealism, but can't draw a straight n precise line to save her life.

she was in art college for animation, in which requires the skills / talents that she lacks. this is her animation assignment from school.

and she realized afterwards, that drawn animation just isn't her strength, and put her focus back onto paintings. her ture calling.

quote: 'if you can't draw portraits, you don't offer portraits to people.'


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## RangerReb (Jul 11, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> I want to draw because I want to. Simple as that. I am a writer. I hate it. I imagine all my stories as visual media and it only _through resignation over my inability to draw_ that I sighed and picked up writing when I was like 8.
> 
> But we all want a lot of things. We don't get everything we want, and must bitterly deal with whatever hand we have been dealt. Dealing with bitter resignation over my inability to draw has been a focus of my thoughts for at least five years at this point.


Well then _draw_. Dude, no one is stopping you but yourself. I've tried to prove to you that you can get better, but you're the type of person that quits as soon as they make something that doesn't line up with the image in their head. Like I stated before. If I had stopped every. single. time that the image on paper wasn't like how I imagined it I would have quit years ago.

And you said you sighed and picked up writing instead at age 8?? If you thought you couldn't draw at that age you gave up way too soon. I did not start making art I was truly proud of until I was about 16. Like holy crap, no one is good at art at age 8 unless they're a freaking prodigy.

I have no clue what to think of you.


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## MainHammond (Jul 11, 2020)

I declare this thread closed.


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## RangerReb (Jul 11, 2020)

MainHammond said:


> I declare this thread closed.


Probably will be soon. Rage quit.


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## Tendo64 (Jul 11, 2020)

Boy oh BOY do I love when people diminish all the blood, sweat, and tears I've given to get where I am today when I couldn't even draw a stick figure at some point to "lol you just have natural talent it comes easy for you"

As plenty of people in this thread have pointed out, you are the one who refuses to actually work and instead throw a pity party. If you expect to instantly get good at art, then obviously it's not for you. But I wasn't born talented either, nor was anyone in this thread. Somebody showed you the massive improvement from five years and you still chalked it up to natural-born talent.

I worked my ass off getting my art to a semi-decent level. It's been nearly six years since I began to seriously practice my drawing skills--eight if you count the years before where I occasionally drew something in mspaint as a child. My art when beginning was as bad as anyone else's childhood drawings, but I improved because instead of whining about it and crying that I can't draw, I decided to actually try. Art takes years to learn and get good at. I frankly find it disrespectful that you're basically telling us that, no, we didn't work hard, we magically are good at art and it took no effort. 

You want to draw? Do it. Don't? Fine, you'll never be good at it and you can feel sorry for yourself until the day you pass.

That's all I have to say. I'm not going to reply to any replies because I already know you're just going to say "nope can't do it" so I'm not going to bother.


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## Rayd (Jul 11, 2020)

i may share a similar mindset at times, and though i regularly feel bitter about it in a similar fashion you've shown in this thread, ultimately i understand that i can only blame myself for it, because effort _is _real. i find it blatantly disrespectful that you void that and discredit people that _do _work hard in their craft, especially the ones that aren't the greatest at it after years and years of hard work and practice. just like you, i make up plenty of excuses to warrant my "inability" to be talented. i constantly use the fact that i've wanted to draw and cook as early as elementary school and wasn't able to because of childhood trauma and a dysfunctional household as my excuse that i wasn't able to grow up doing those things, and now my _current excuse_ is that i'm too anxious and traumatized to put forward the effort and dedication required to work on a craft because i feel so mentally and emotionally exhausted. but i think it's safe to say that there's plenty of depressed artists that are great despite that, so that excuse doesn't really check out, either.

the thing is, though, is that as someone who wants something so badly, and hasn't been able to achieve it, it's easy and even normal to think of excuses to give yourself so you feel better about your own self-disappointment. it's important to learn to use these feelings as a positive driving force to achieve, rather than one to reassure your complacency and give up. this is something i'm actively working on, and i hope that one day i can find it in me to give drawing and cooking a proper shot one day, and not one where i try for a week, have a good cry and drop it completely.

it may sound cheesy, but there's a common saying that goes - "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard" and it's true. i'm going to use an example not many can relate to since it's related to basketball, but there's a reason that underdogs nobody believes in can win championships over teams with several household names on them. a great example would be when the detroit pistons, a team full of a bunch of no-names, beat the los angeles lakers in 2004 for the NBA championship, a team that had kobe bryant and shaquille o'neil on it, both of which who were in their prime and are considered to be 2 of the greatest basketball players of all time. if the above statement wasn't true, the pistons would have had no chance. as a matter of fact, if the above statement wasn't true, the lakers would have won every championship every year until kobe and shaq retired. but they didn't. they were beaten several times, some of which were huge upsets against teams that nobody believed in, like the pistons.

so, you can still think that art takes some sort of "natural talent", but even then, it's been historically proven time and time again that talent can be bested by hard work. and that goes for everything. not just basketball, and not just art.


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## Nazoc (Jul 12, 2020)

Tendo64 said:


> Boy oh BOY do I love when people diminish all the blood, sweat, and tears I've given to get where I am today when I couldn't even draw a stick figure at some point to "lol you just have natural talent it comes easy for you"
> 
> As plenty of people in this thread have pointed out, you are the one who refuses to actually work and instead throw a pity party. If you expect to instantly get good at art, then obviously it's not for you. But I wasn't born talented either, nor was anyone in this thread. Somebody showed you the massive improvement from five years and you still chalked it up to natural-born talent.
> 
> ...


Lmfao you're literally 17. I'm 25 (aka already a decrepit boomer by hobby/trade standards). Of course you can look down at me from your high horse when you've been doing this since you've been like 12 by your own admission. Your talent just bloomed late. You're the other kind of artist I've encountered in my many talks with them, the I-did-it-late-and-by-late-I-mean-like-middle-school artist who just took a tiny bit longer to express their talent.

And I never said that art was nothing but talent. What I _said_ was that a foundational talent is needed to learn to draw. This is an indisputable fact. You _must_ have inborn talent in order to grow your skills. I acknowledge that artists work hard--what I don't acknowledge is that it's nothing but hard work, because *foundational talent is compulsory.*


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## Nazoc (Jul 12, 2020)

RangerReb said:


> And you said you sighed and picked up writing instead at age 8?? If you thought you couldn't draw at that age you gave up way too soon. I did not start making art I was truly proud of until I was about 16. Like holy crap, no one is good at art at age 8 unless they're a freaking prodigy.
> 
> I have no clue what to think of you.


Even as young as 7-9 years old I had a sense of perfectionism. If you aren't perfect at something, there's no reason to expend effort on it when someone who _is_ will come along and make you obsolete. The point of a skill is to be good at it, and showcase your superior skills amongst your peers. That's the reason to do anything. And if you aren't the best, you aren't anyone.


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## Gemi42 (Jul 12, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Things like "effort" are a myth. Oh sure, artists can improve their skills--but they _improve what was already there_. No one can produce skill _ex nihilo_. Artless rabble such as myself are damned to forever be "artless".
> 
> "Effort" and "practice" are jokes, _lies_; lies propagated by people who are unable, admittedly usually innocently, to comprehend the idea of being talentless, of being a bitter person who is well aware of and resigned to the fact that they are damned by their genetics to never produce anything of worth. All that matters is what you were born with. You are either born with worth, or you are born worthless like myself.



What I'm wondering is why do you have such a poor mindset? Why did you come on here and make this thread?

At what point in time, did you decided to put up such a mental blockage for something like this? No, one individual is born with those abilities. A Talent is something that someone has poured alot of time,
blood, sweat and tears into. Their efforts have yielded results because of their persistence in their craft.

For traditional animation, do you think that all of a sudden people started appearing in the world with automatic skill and talent? No, drawing and learning to draw what you see is something that I have struggled with for over 25 years!



Nazoc said:


> Even as young as 7-9 years old I had a sense of perfectionism. If you aren't perfect at something, there's no reason to expend effort on it when someone who _is_ will come along and make you obsolete. The point of a skill is to be good at it, and showcase your superior skills amongst your peers. That's the reason to do anything. And if you aren't the best, you aren't anyone.



That is not the point of skill, at least not mine. That is a concept that changes from person to person, something so vague as the 'meaning of life.' Please, don't imprint your perceptions onto others.

Nothing is perfect. And it will never be perfect.

When you perceive an artist's work as perfect, they will always see the flaws in their work.

For a lot of people, the idea of honing their skills and become better at drawing is more about expressing themselves and for some, it's about telling stories through their art!
Also, in your post you said that you were 25? Your profile says that you are 24.


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## RangerReb (Jul 12, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Even as young as 7-9 years old I had a sense of perfectionism. If you aren't perfect at something, there's no reason to expend effort on it when someone who _is_ will come along and make you obsolete. The point of a skill is to be good at it, and showcase your superior skills amongst your peers. That's the reason to do anything. And if you aren't the best, you aren't anyone.


Wow, that is an absolutely terrible mindset to have lol. I don't do art to be the best. In fact, I do it because I enjoy it. If I didn't enjoy it, art would be meaningless to me. Comparison is poison. Creating art has nothing to do with this survival of the fittest mentality, god damn.

Anyways, I'm done here. It's pointless to _expend effort _typing out rebuttals to you at this point.


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## MainHammond (Jul 12, 2020)

I call it the Americal Idol mindset. 
It's the kind of people that thinks the only way to do something they like is being the best at it and if they are not the best, then it's worthless and they should quit. Music was never about talent or being the best.
Same goes to every form of art.


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## inkbloom (Jul 12, 2020)

I do not practice baking because I want to be the best at it. I do it so I can make yummy things for myself and my friends. I'm not going to stop simply because pastry chefs exist. 
I do not practice sewing because I want to be the next great fashion designer. I do it because it's fun and cheaper than buying things from the store. I'm not going to stop just because professional seamstresses exist.

The ultimate goal of skill learning doesn't have to be being the best. If it were, no one would do anything. We would try once and give up, so sure that someone could come in and do it better.
I know that it's hard to feel good about something when you're not perfect at it, but you need to do things for yourself instead of this desire to compare yourself to others.


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## Nazoc (Jul 12, 2020)

Gemi42 said:


> Also, in your post you said that you were 25? Your profile says that you are 24.



I turn 25 in like two months.

It's very easy to mock my positions when you're one of the few privileged people who can art good and already got your foot in the door. It's not surprising that such it makes it impossible for you to understand my positions, but it's disappointing all the same. 

If I could have gotten good at art merely by doing it, I would have.

I haven't.

Clearly, I simply do not possess art talent. My reasoning is as simple as that. Why don't I possess it? I was born fucked up with shitty hands and a literal mental disease. I can't play an instrument for the same reason either. That my simple hypothesis is worthy of this much bizarre animosity absolutely baffles me. It's like you get offended when I dare point out how lucky you got when your parents rolled the genetic dice and you got good stats.


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## Gemi42 (Jul 12, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> I turn 25 in like two months.
> 
> It's very easy to mock my positions when you're one of the few privileged people who can art good and already got your foot in the door. It's not surprising that such it makes it impossible for you to understand my positions, but it's disappointing all the same.
> 
> ...



Alright, I will leave you to your opinion. Despite, our disagreements today, I do wish you the best in the future and I hope that you have a good birthday. Bye.


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## zentt (Jul 12, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> That my simple hypothesis is worthy of this much bizarre animosity absolutely baffles me.


You shouldn’t be baffled because your attitude is FUCKING ATROCIOUS. There, I said it. “Boo hoo I’m not good at drawing yet, therefore it is the world’s fault and everyone else’s fault for having art privilege. I’m going to conclude it’s impossible to improve so that way I can pity myself and stop putting in any more effort!!” You remind me of someone complaining about being poor because of all the rich people, while also refusing to ever look for a better job than part time at walmart. You are wrong and we all know it because all of us have gotten better at drawing with time.

If practice isn’t helping then you need a mentor because you don’t know how to improve. I had an artist friend who pointed out numerous flaws and bad practices and that greatly helped me. You need guidance if you want to improve. But let’s be real. You don’t.


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## Pomorek (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm going to add my (hopefully not too messy) two cents here, as this matter is important to me.

I actually share the OP's sentiment, to a degree. I know all too well the feeling of "why does it have to be so hard for me when it's so easy for others?".

Different people have naturally differing levels of predisposition for different skills. Can anyone learn to draw? Well, _technically _yes. But for some it's going to be easy, for others moderately troublesome, for yet others a struggle, and for some an uphill battle with no end in sight.

For me it is the latter case. I can't draw, never could, and repeated attempts didn't do much to improve my skill. Does it mean it would be absolutely impossible? No, if someone for example threatened with shooting me in a month's time if I don't learn to draw well, then probably I could! But in a normal situation, the required amount of dedication, time and – very important with art – emotional capacity to suffer through the initially unavoidable shitty results until it gets better – is simply more than what I can reasonably muster.

However, art doesn't end with drawing. Not being able to make art in this "standard" way, I turned to 3D computer graphics (at the age of 24, mind you). A very different field, where images are constructed rather than drawn. And bingo, this worked for me so damn well! So if regular drawing stubbornly refuses to work for you, it might be a good idea to look around for other media.


With all that said, perfectionism and the "American Idol" attitude isn't just any poison. _It's a fuckin' cyanide. _My wife is a perfect example here. She has a real, natural talent. She picked up drawing in her school years and quickly got good at it. Without blood, sweat and tears, without any of these struggles that even some accomplished artists speak of. But at some later point, she somehow developed this "American Idol" attitude around her art. Which made her stop drawing altogether. And dammit, I can't talk her out of that...

So, it should be a word of warning: overt perfectionism can stop even a person who is both talented and has experience.


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## Arishipshape (Jul 12, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Things like "effort" are a myth. Oh sure, artists can improve their skills--but they _improve what was already there_. No one can produce skill _ex nihilo_. Artless rabble such as myself are damned to forever be "artless".
> 
> "Effort" and "practice" are jokes, _lies_; lies propagated by people who are unable, admittedly usually innocently, to comprehend the idea of being talentless, of being a bitter person who is well aware of and resigned to the fact that they are damned by their genetics to never produce anything of worth. All that matters is what you were born with. You are either born with worth, or you are born worthless like myself.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Jul 12, 2020)

I agree that it does help to certain degrees, but they're not needed perfectly.

Dexterity
It does help to kickstart, but you can always train and practice more to make up for that! You'll then develop your own art style and then the formula is yours. Your consciousness shall remember the formula, which is what you have been developing when you practice.

Spacial Cognition
I agree with this. But I see many people still do their arts whether they're great with it or totally awful with it. I know, it can irritate you to certain degrees, but art isn't a competition! (Unless you join a comp)
One can draw what they want as long as they are not too irritated by their own flaws. And if you encourage yourself even though you're not good at it, you'll feel like you're doing well, and then you'll actually improve! This one was psychological.
Further, research certain stuffs you are aiming for. View more arts of certain features and examine them.

Memories
I have memory issues, I solve that just by reading the descriptions again and/or viewing the ref sheet again over and over until I finish.

The art, in my humble opinion, is half talent and half effort as default. When you got talent, you need less effort(on working out stuffs that would otherwise be easier); When you got less or no talent, effort will make it up with time spent too.

And well... this is kinda a trick: If people love certain arts of other artists even though there are flaws you suspect, then that's just enough.
Being too perfect and too into details won't be caught by most people's eyes, according to my experience.

And in my humble guess, I think the underlying obstacle on you might be the tiredness. "It would be exhausting more than what I could get." Despite I may have the skills and experiences as an artist, this gets in my way and I feel like I lack skills, especially after viewing other greater artists' arts.
These are my main reason of not producing arts regularly, but it's been reduced than before thanks to a solution.

So here're my two cents:


Spoiler



After finishing an art(no matter it's flawed or not), view it. Examine on what catches your eye the most, and simplify the rest when you draw another. This way, it's less exhausting when you draw, while the art is still 'acceptable'. I call this 'practical efficiency'.

And about feeling lack of skills and talents, you have to stop comparing yourself with other greater artists (as long as it discourages you). There are tons and tons of artists around the world, and there has to be anyone that is greater than me even if I'm more skilled/talented than current state. So, if I make the skill and talent comparison with others as an excuse of discouraging to do arts, there shall be no end to this.
Only compare yourself with your past self, then you'll no longer be discouraged because 1) you may have improved than before or 2) even if you have worsen, the better skilled you was once there, so it's assured that you can do it again anyways.
And as long as you don't use the comparison on others to discourage yourself, you can always compare and examine on other artists' arts to seek improvement. (What makes them better than me? What should I learn from them? What makes me feel they are better than me? What do I lack then? What can I do to archieve/improve what I lack?)



Be more confident with yourself, and that alone may make stuffs easier than not done so. The speech itself doesn't help much, it helps you only when you begin to accept yourself and believe in yourself for improvement, and then the speech helps.
I'm serious about this. You can do it!

Bonus:


Spoiler



If you have your OC(s), whether they stand out or not compared to others' OCs, they are unique. Only you know your OC 100%, and drawing that allows you to be more confident on your skills as no one else in this world can express them 100%. (Regarding you don't hate your art skills. And it can be overcame by what I suggested earlier.)


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## Nazoc (Jul 12, 2020)

Arishipshape said:


>


That was an appealing piece of propaganda, but there's no benefit or positive to failing. My parents drilled that into my head. Anything less than an A was unacceptable in their eyes and made me effectively worthless. I was unable to adhere to these standards (I got a lot of B's and C's), but it told me that there's no point in effort unless you're confident you are at the top of your game. Failure is nothing but bitter disappoijtment., not some learning experience.


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## Rayd (Jul 12, 2020)

Arishipshape said:


>


very interesting. after watching this i can say for certain that i was most definitely raised to have a fixed mindset. this very well may be the case with the OP as well. though it's slightly depressing that it could have gone differently had i "learned how to learn" when i was supposed to. OP may not have appreciated it, but thanks for sharing.


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## Arishipshape (Jul 12, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> That was an appealing piece of propaganda, but there's no benefit or positive to failing. My parents drilled that into my head. Anything less than an A was unacceptable in their eyes and made me effectively worthless. I was unable to adhere to these standards (I got a lot of B's and C's), but it told me that there's no point in effort unless you're confident you are at the top of your game. Failure is nothing but bitter disappoijtment., not some learning experience.







Failure is a mandatory step on the path to greatness. Nobody is top notch at anything for free. Sure, inherent talent starts people off at a HUGE advantage, but all of the greats failed on the way. Look at any story: Rocky lost his first fight against Apollo Creed. Neo failed the first jump. Samus fought Ridley and lost the baby metroid. No one is perfect or the best at anything, for free, without failure, EVER. No exceptions.

As to your worth, let’s concede, for the sake of argument, that a man’s worth is dictated by his output (in the form of, say, grades). Let us say this man begins studying for a math test. Let us say that he gets a practice problem wrong. Answer me this: is he more likely to succeed on the test if he continues doing math problems until he gets them right? Or will he have a better shot if he decides he’s got no talent for math and gives up? EVEN IF HE IS CORRECT that he has 0 talent for maths whatsoever, what he can earn by effort is still there, waiting for him. He should continue trying, continue failing. As the video put it at the end, “fail better”. At the very least, he will be worth more because he did better on the test, in this hypothetical.

Then there’s reality. In reality, a man’s worth as a human is NOT dictated by his output. Your parents were wrong. I highly recommend delving into the realm of philosophy, but I personally believe that a person can fail and still have worth. So don’t think that your worth as a person rides on an A. It never does. At the very least, you always have the potential to reach “A” status if you don’t give up.

Effort improves you, this has born out over history countless times. Ever seen a training montage? The trainee comes out BETTER at the end. Every time.

I agree that failure hurts, but I do not agree that it is worthless. No one ever got to the top without failure on the way. Some suffer less than others, but if your goal is to be the best at whatever you decide to be the best at, you must accept that failure is a necessary evil at least, if not a learning experience to teach you. You learn more from failure than success.



Aprilycan said:


> very interesting. after watching this i can say for certain that i was most definitely raised to have a fixed mindset. this very well may be the case with the OP as well. though it's slightly depressing that it could have gone differently had i "learned how to learn" when i was supposed to. OP may not have appreciated it, but thanks for sharing.


You have my sympathy, and no problem.


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## Nazoc (Jul 13, 2020)

Okay I've calmed down now and would like to explain some things, but what I'm really gonna do is just copy-paste something from a discord server I wrote about twenty minutes ago:



> Starting to realize just how poisonous my dad's "anything less than an A means you're a pathetic failure" attitude might have been to me
> _[_1:55 AM_]_
> Basically my dad was the kind of parent whose first response to a report card of 5 A's and 1 B was "why didn't you get all A's you worthless lazy piece of shit". That and stuff like "I got a 95 on my test, dad!" "Should have been a 98" And if I got a 98 next time he just said "why didn't you get a 100"
> _[_1:56 AM_]_
> ...





> My dad was one of those "just do well" kind of dads that didn't actually do much of anything to foster a sense of learning in me Well, he did get me a LOT of books because I liked to read, but that's about it
> _[_2:20 PM_]_
> He is one of those old-school 50's-romanticizing boomers whose philosophy in parenting is "I make the money, and that is the sole contribution I am _ever_ making towards this household"
> _[_2:24 PM_]_
> ...



This is why I can't do art. I was raised in a completely screwed up way that left me terrified of failure and utterly non-functional when it comes to learning things or asking for help. This isn't so much an excuse but an explanation. I can't art because I just don't know how to get good at things. I hold my "inborn talent is everything" attitude because in my experience, I just plateaued about halfway through high school and never felt like I was getting better and just flubbed the advanced classes I tried to take so I ran back to the basic required classes to scrape by and get a diploma. I've never felt like I've gotten better at anything, and since I started out awful at art, I felt like that was it. That was all I could do, same with anything else.

Take what you will. I'm just bitter and jealous of people who can get better at things and improve, because it never felt like I could. I feel like my skills are just set in stone, that I can never get better at anything no matter what I try. Even my old writing is barely better than my new writing.


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## inkbloom (Jul 13, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Okay I've calmed down now and would like to explain some things, but what I'm really gonna do is just copy-paste something from a discord server I wrote about twenty minutes ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing that with us. It's truly unfortunate how you were raised and the pain it has caused you. 
Before you can get better at any skill, it sounds like you have a lot of work to do unlearning the horrible lessons your father taught you. If you feel that you do not know how to learn and improve, then you're going to have to spend some time teaching yourself. 
It will be hard and you might never be free from these kinds of thoughts, but you are young and the road before you is open if you wish to take it. The first step has already been taken. 
I know that you know that talent isn't everything. You said yourself that just being "gifted" wasn't enough to get you through school, and children who did not shine as bright early on ended up surpassing you. It wasn't your innate capabilities, but how your work was encouraged and fostered that made a difference. So now it's up to you to foster better thoughts and encourage yourself. 

I hope that you can heal.


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## Nazoc (Jul 13, 2020)

I find the "just draw!" attitude really frustrating for this reason. I don't know how to "just do" something and get better at it, guys. I don't know where to start, I don't know what to do, I just don't. It's easy for people who don't have this completely fucked up psychological tire fire mindset and who _really can_ "just draw" to say that. Of course you all can "just draw", you know how to learn things. I don't! Everytime I "just drew", it resulted in a few days of grinding circles and basic shapes because I was too scared to draw an actual thing badly and then I burnt out because I don't know _what the hell I'm supposed to do_.


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## MainHammond (Jul 13, 2020)

First I wanna quote myself.



MainHammond said:


> Maybe is that,maybe it's not.
> One thing I can tell you for sure, here in furaffinity we will never see someone's work and say, it lack talent.



And second, you gotta stop thinking what you draw is bad.
Every drawing you make is good, and it's good because it was made by YOU and no one else.


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## Arishipshape (Jul 13, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> I find the "just draw!" attitude really frustrating for this reason. I don't know how to "just do" something and get better at it, guys. I don't know where to start, I don't know what to do, I just don't. It's easy for people who don't have this completely fucked up psychological tire fire mindset and who _really can_ "just draw" to say that. Of course you all can "just draw", you know how to learn things. I don't! Everytime I "just drew", it resulted in a few days of grinding circles and basic shapes because I was too scared to draw an actual thing badly and then I burnt out because I don't know _what the hell I'm supposed to do_.


If you’re stuck for what to do to advance drawing, I’d highly recommend the resources I used to start my journey: the book “Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” by Betty Edwards, and “The Art and Science of Drawing” with Brent Eviston. The former details the neuroscience behind learning to draw and seeing things “with an artist’s eye”, teaching you how to draw from the world or from what you see with alternating reading and exercises you can do. The latter is a course available on the internet at Skillshare (not sponsored), where a master teacher of drawing guides you through the basic concepts of drawing and, of course, assigns you exercises you can do to build skills from nothing. And I mean from nothing. I was absolutely awful at drawing with no inherent skill at it, but through these two free resources (the former can be found at libraries and the latter can be viewed using Skillshare’s free month trial) I’ve singlehandedly brought myself up to “able to draw recognizably”. 

I know how you feel. I couldn’t “just draw”, I sucked too bad and couldn’t get any results of any kind, much less improvement. If you take either (or both) of the resources I recommended and simply do the exercises as recommended by the masters, you will grow skills.


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## Nazoc (Jul 13, 2020)

MainHammond said:


> First I wanna quote myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's very hard to have that mindset when you follow literally hundreds of artists across deviantart/toyhouse/furaffinity/twitter/etc. I see great art thrown in my face by the hundreds of pieces everyday. It's like seeing 100K+ word fanfics and excellent novels all day and here you are barely able to write a damn sentence in English much less a whole story. You can't express yourself with your writing, you can't really do anything with it, it just sucks and has zero value to anyone, not even yourself. That is where I am with art. I have zero skill and it's just bad and worthless and doesn't even let me express myself.


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## Arishipshape (Jul 13, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> It's very hard to have that mindset when you follow literally hundreds of artists across deviantart/toyhouse/furaffinity/twitter/etc. I see great art thrown in my face by the hundreds of pieces everyday. It's like seeing 100K+ word fanfics and excellent novels all day and here you are barely able to write a damn sentence in English much less a whole story.


IKR? I was there too, man. It gets better.


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## Nazoc (Jul 13, 2020)

Does it really, though?

I feel like I plateau in everything instantly and no matter how much effort I put into something I just _don't_ get better. Even my writing has barely improved over a damn decade or maybe I'm just blind to how much better I am at it, but I dunno. Everything is just doing the same thing and repeating the same mistakes over and over again like I'm stuck in a timeloop.


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## Arishipshape (Jul 13, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> Does it really, though?
> 
> I feel like I plateau in everything instantly and no matter how much effort I put into something I just _don't_ get better. Even my writing has barely improved over a damn decade or maybe I'm just blind to how much better I am at it, but I dunno. Everything is just doing the same thing and repeating the same mistakes over and over again like I'm stuck in a timeloop.


You are ABSOLUTELY blind to your improvement. If you read “Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain,” the first exercise is a mandatory drawing session where you just suck. This exists not to make you feel bad (though you certainly will), but to have an objective point of reference for you to refer to after you go through the book’s exercises. You will NOT see your improvements without an objective measurement. Especially in creative endeavors.

Of course, doing the same thing over and over without critically analyzing your mistakes and failures for how to improve, or without increasing your span of knowledge via study and tutelage, is going to result in stagnation. There’s only so much pure mileage can get you. You must learn from others, preferably masters, and do research.


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## Kuroserama (Jul 13, 2020)

*bursts in with a bunch of balloons* Wait guys, I brought the balloons! Am I too late for the pity-party??

But in seriousness… You sound like you might be depressed.
I once joined a help site because I was miserable. But I realized that I didn’t want help. I wanted to be miserable, for whatever reason, and I wanted people to listen to me and pat my back.

You’re 25. An adult. At some point, you are going to have to stop blaming your upbringing and change if you want to change. You do not sound like you want to change. And that’s okay if you do not want to change. Pity-parties are okay to sit and have sometimes.

As far as drawing skill being almost solely innate…. I vehemently disagree. There are aspects, sure, that are helped by genetics. But if you even are able to appreciate art, think something is pretty or interesting, then you have _some_ artistic ability.

When I was 13-14, there was this 10 year old kid I knew who would only draw Dragon Ball Z characters. They looked really wonky, not very good at all. He drew constantly, on scraps of paper, on napkins, whatever. I moved away for a year or two and when I came back, he was still drawing these characters, from memory. But they looked perfect. And he was able to translate those skills to creating his own characters. In fact, he got scouted and offered a scholarship for after high school. And I was so jealous. But you know how much I drew? Probably nothing — It wasn’t a passion of mine yet.

My parents never had that mindset yours do but somehow that is how I thought of myself. Below A’s are a failure (for me). I did poorly on an art project and was really upset and went to talk with my professor. She told me: *“As an artist, it is important to have a range of successes and failures.” *That really stuck with me.

Every time I stare at a blank canvas / paper, it is almost anxiety-inducing to make that first mark. What if you mess it up? What if it’s in the wrong spot? (part of why I like digital art so much) But you have to just make a mark and go on.

Also, it’s all in what you make it. There are kids’ books where the characters are just stick figures but it is a best seller. I have seen very successful games / kid books / cartoons / whatever that looks really simplistic. I mean look at Minecraft, for crying out loud. Or indie 8 bit games. Or pixel art. If you have interesting elements to put with your art, your art can be a unique style unto you.

Others have given good suggestions:
Try a different aspect of art, like 3D modeling
use books / tutorials and work through them
use reference material and practice
hand exercises / stretches


There will always be someone better than you. Does it really matter?


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## JuniperW (Jul 14, 2020)

Art is subjective.
Objectively, there's no such thing as being "good" or "bad" at art. The only thing required to be an artist is...well, to make art. We all have different ways of doing it and that's okay. If you feel like you don't want to be an artist, then that's also okay. But you're not worthless. 
Remember that nobody is perfect when it comes to their creations. Even famous artists make mistakes and aren't happy with their works. 
When you look at something and are disappointed by it, use it as motivation to get better. Don't seek perfection, but look for something that makes *you *happy. That is the most important thing for any creative work, in my opinion.


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## Infamous-Mango (Jul 14, 2020)

Let me tell you a story.

I'm 33, have been drawing since I was in 7th grade (13ish); so basically 20 years. I have had absolutely no formal training in art.

I, like most people, have done redraws. I recently did one from a piece I did in 2005, and redid in 2015. The difference is staggering.

The original I drew by hand, scanned, then drew over in MSPaint. At that point, I had been drawing for 6 years, and it STILL looks like crap! I was so proud of myself, tho. 

I grew up with the same kind of parents, have ADD, and PTSD, as well as being a perfectionist.

But your arguments are flawed. The ONLY thing standing in your way is yourself. Nobody can tell you how you should do it. There is not a magical spell that can be said. There is no such thing as talent. Everyone has to learn the skill from the ground up. Nobody is born with the knowledge

There are people who have been drawing for ¼ of the time I have who are 2-4 times better than me and can live off their commissions.

I hate most of what I draw, but I still do it, because I want to draw; I have that urge. And in a folder full of coal, occasionally there's a diamond.


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## artofem (Jul 14, 2020)

I just got back into drawing again after around 6 years of hiatus, mainly because of depression.

Whenever I feel like my arts' improvement stuck at some point, I go back to watching basic theories, tutorials on youtube.

I highly recommend www.youtube.com: Alphonso Dunn for basic rendering, shapes, values and textures.

And, www.youtube.com: Marco Bucci for coloring theories.

I always tend to forget about them eventually so I go back to relearned them again.

Try to explore, draw something you do not usually draw and try not to stick to your usual drawing routine.

A silly suggestion, if your problem is perfection, try not to finish a portion of your drawing. That way, the flaws are justified cause it's not a complete work. Or set a time when drawing like 2-3 hours, that is not enough to completely finished a piece.

Also, I feel you op, some artists are really gifted, like akiane kramarik.

But, we all have our art journeys to take, you don't have to compare yourself to others. Just keep drawing and I'm sure that you will arrive at some point. And you, will realize that you really did made improvements.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 14, 2020)

Nazoc said:


> In my experience, from talking with artists and seeing them talk about it amongst themselves in forums and the like, I've come to the conclusion that art requires that one _be born with _three basic abilities:
> 
> -an abnormally high level of dexterity
> -a good sense of spatial cognition (for perspective and posing characters based off only a reference image of one pose)
> ...



Dexterity is obtained through practice. No one learns to magically do something with grace or finesse on their first or twentieth try. Just like we fumbled when we learned to walk.

I still struggle with a lot of dynamic perspective but I'm getting better the more that I try. 

I have great memory, but I am self-taught and there is only so much I can achieve this way. I'm literally shaping my style year after year, tiny piece by tiny piece. It's incredibly difficult to aspire to be at a certain level with no one to teach you how to get there- when google queries yield nothing.

*Anyone can do art-* you literally have people creating animations of stickmen and are generating millions of views because they're also able to tell a story with them- _*but not everyone can become successful because of it.*_ It's pathetic that you try to blame it on ADHD or the fact that your parents taught you anything that wasn't an A+ wasn't worthy- my parents did it too! I'm also a scatterbrain that loses focus and starts to wander, but there's this thing called discipline and I dunno, _*teaching yourself*_. You literally compare writing to drawing when both can take just as much time to perfect, just in different ways. Even with my current level of skill, I am constantly stressing over how I can never do justice for my OC's, because how can you draw a face that has never existed? There are no refs. So I just have to slowly and meticulously build upon it as I improve as an artist. 

There are artists out there that are 17 years old and are making splash art that looks like it could be featured in a videogame. Why? Because there are more tools and resources available than there ever was when I was little. I will always be jealous, but I would never go and cry over something as stupid as genetics or privilege. _Especially_ when you tried to blame it on your upbringing. I'm sure it does help to have a rich mom and dad to put you into private art schools, but I can guarantee you most artists on FA have not come from such _simple _backgrounds. I sure as hell haven't. My parents demanded everything and expected me to succeed when they gave me the bare minimum (food, clothes, shelter and school supplies). 

The reason why you can't draw is because you don't want to take the time to learn it. You can't see past your own turmoil and angst and self-pity to see the effort people have had to put into it, to overcome their flaws/mistakes and master the craft. These people didn't give up. YOU did. Your parents might have raised you a certain way, but it sounds to me like (despite knowing the alternatives) YOU choose to live by it. And that isn't anyone's fault but yours. 

STOP making excuses for yourself and STOP comparing your success to others. It's all too common amongst artists and ultimately puts them to a halt in their progress. I also had to jump this hurdle. I know my skills aren't in high demand but I've got personal projects I want to fulfill. I'm certainly not going to do that crying about it. I might not be the best writer, or the best artist, but perhaps if I combine the two, I can make an awesome/memorable adventure series before I'm fifty.


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## oappo (Jul 15, 2020)

Oh wow. The biggest problem you have OP is your absolute garbage attitude (no offense). Barring very extreme genetic conditions (something certainly more substantial than "I have shaky hands". I.e.,  an actual genetic condition), injuries,ect I'd say anyone can draw.
The three basic things listed are all learned. 
There are many people who drew since childhood, but there are also many who didn't pick up art until their teens or early adult years. 

At this point, you're just looking for excuses to fail.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Jul 16, 2020)

Unnaturally high dexterity? Huh? I have nerve damage in my right hand. I draw fine. Probably wouldn't try sculpting eggshells, but that's not what this thread is about. There's a thread elsewhere about people who draw who literally cannot picture anything in their head.

Aphantasia - Wikipedia

Lots of Disney animators have it too. So anything about spatial awareness or memory or anything doesn't apply - they can't picture it. So, none of your comments make sense.

---

The only thing someone needs to draw is a willingness to learn and struggle. Until you find that, don't bother. Seriously. Don't bother. You're killing yourself trying do something you clearly don't want to do... So don't.


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## shirogu5 (Jul 17, 2020)

All you need is passion for the skill you want to develop and hard hard work. You gotta work more than your average peer to improve more than them over time. This applies for everything you want to get good at.

A person losing all his limbs, but an unstoppable passion to draw will find a way to draw with his mouth. And yes this person will be better at drawing than you if he spends more time practicing and developing his skill.

I do agree that talent exists, but only in the short term I feel like. Talent alone wont get you anywhere, hard work is the only thing, and I am pretty sure that most succesful people will tell you this exact thing.

Since hard work is the only way you can get really good at something and become the best in your field, the more important it is that you should have a passion for it. You gotta absolutely love doing it or you gonna burn out before you even really get anywhere.

Also one more important thing, you gotta focus on the journey, not the result. In order to get good at something, yeah, you have to fail a lot of times. A LOT. Failing is harsh but probably the only teacher you'll need. Also, the more rewarding it is to look back at your old art after a long time and realise how much you have improved.


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