# Some General Questions from an Ignorant Person



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Hello everyone. I wasn't sure whether to post to art discussions or writer discussions, since comics are my thing, but my questions deal more with story than technique, so I thought this was more appropriate. As you can probably see by my join date and lack of activity, I'm very new both to this site and to this community as a whole. Please bear that in mind. I apologize in advance if I end up saying anything that is inappropriate or disrespectful. That's not my intention. I'm not here to step on any toes (or tails). I also apologize if I'm just re-hashing a tired topic. As I said, I'm here for help.

I actually ended up on this site when I was looking for art tips. I started going through these forums looking for anything that I could use to improve my own work. I found some stuff, but I also found dozens of threads and comments that revolved around stereotypes that surround certain animals. Now, I'm not really an _active_ member of the furry community. I don't have a "fursona" and I don't do the suits or anything like that, but I have written a story with anthro characters. I like them. 

My primary protagonists are foxes, and their supporting cast consists largely of other canids (not only because that's what I become most accustomed drawing, but also because it fits elements of the story), but there are also various other types of animals mixed in. When I was creating my characters, I rarely factored what the were into who they were. In fact, apart from physical characteristics, very little of their personalities or traits were determined by their... race? Species? To me, they're just people. They're more human than anything else.

I guess that's why I got so tripped up by all of this stereotyping stuff. It hadn't really crossed my mind that people might pre-judge my work based on _what_ the characters are and not _who_ they are.

My foxes aren't running around chugging dicks and banging everything that moves. My wolves aren't... well, you get the picture. They're people. They have strengths and flaws just like anyone else.

I guess my questions really boil down to this: 

As laughable as the notion sounds, is it unreasonable for me to assume that my work could be taken seriously? I have to assume that, given the character set, my core audience would at least initially be people from within this community. This is where I get to start stereotyping and I apologize, but is this degree of pre-judgment something that I'm going to have to deal with even here? Are people just expecting me to throw porn in their faces just because of my characters? Will people write me off based on that alone? Was what I read the opinion of a very vocal minority, or is _my _mindset the one that's wrong? _Should_ I be falling into certain tropes or animal cliches?  -Not that I would compromise my work solely to widen appeal, but I could make some small concessions. And I'm damn sure not making porn. 

Anyway. I think I made some kind of coherent point inside of all of that rambling. I would sincerely appreciate any advice or answers that you guys could provide me with. Thank you for taking the time to read through all of that. Have a great day.

Edit: more of a technique question, but I'm already in, so I'll ask here. Hands- should hands have pads? In theory it makes sense and I know that they should, but in practice it's awkward to say the least.


----------



## hup2thepenguin (May 10, 2015)

I'm also writing a story with humanized anthros, and I worry about the same thing. But I very much enjoy reading non-porn furry stories. A lot of my favorite webcomics don't really play off the animal part so much. They could very well be human. If it's good writing, I would take it seriously.


----------



## hup2thepenguin (May 10, 2015)

To be fair, anthro and animal stories that _don't_ follow the stereotypes of the furry fandom can reach out to a wide audience. Think about all the cartoons and books and movies featuring anthro and feral characters. They're everywhere. It's not limited to the furry community. If you google books about animal characters, you'll find many published works that are "mainstream" and aren't associated with being exclusively furry.


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

hup2thepenguin said:


> To be fair, anthro and animal stories that _don't_ follow the stereotypes of the furry fandom can reach out to a wide audience. Think about all the cartoons and books and movies featuring anthro and feral characters. They're everywhere. It's not limited to the furry community. If you google books about animal characters, you'll find many published works that are "mainstream" and aren't associated with being exclusively furry.



That's what I'm hoping for. To be perfectly honest, the whole reason that it originally went that way was that I was terrible at drawing human faces and conveying emotion on them. they all kind of looked the same. I went with what I was capable of doing and I absolutely fell in love with the characters. Now I can't even imagine the story going back. Thanks for the comment.


----------



## Charrio (May 10, 2015)

OK first off, what audience are you aiming at?
The furry genre or like everyone?

My book in the works goes about it as a story not making a big deal of the anthros or human constructs.
It's just part of life and I write it as such, the anthros see the world differently as their senses are enhanced 
or hindered as a species would. 

As to sex, it happens and it's part of life and you need to decide if that is the main focus of your book. Are you
writing an adult novel or one that had a sex scene and passed on continuing the story. In mine the character 
has sex but in a situation that has very harsh consequences as it was with family. The resulting explosion of 
drama and hurt ensue. 

The book has sex in it yes but isn't about getting off it's about how the character's life has gone, even the rape
of her aunt and the pain all are part of life and the book. But the goal is to tell a story and not worry about what
others want, it's your or the character's story or life. 

Life isn't easy and it isn't nice at times, the hard part of writing and drawing is only showing the rosy side when there 
is so, so much more to it. Don't worry about them being Foxes just write it true and how you feel it would be, you can
change things when done if you still feel you have issues with parts.

*My universe Origin Story*, *Unfinished right now still putting notes together*
https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/1361649-Oklahoma-and-origins-of-Furegon


----------



## Amiir (May 10, 2015)

Your anthros are pretty much humans with an animal head and just a few extra features. I like it

To this fandom porn holds a major significance. Honestly, I like it too, it just isn't my main focus but unfortunately the same can't be said about the vast majority of people in the community. To about 99% of furries out there the porn is what's it all about so everything outside of that is usually completely ignored. Unless you have God-like artistic skills, then maybe people will look at your stuff even if it hasn't got dicks, vaginas, boobs and/or asses in it. Pretty damn disheartening, I know. 
I wonder how I can get people to look at the normal stuff I make and the only solution I can think of is to make adult content as well, then maybe, only maybe, people will look at my other general audience stuff too. 
Since you don't mean to make porn I guess you can try showing your works on DeviantArt since the site actually prohibits sexually explicit content. I dunno

What's the story you're working on anyway?


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Amiir said:


> Your anthros are pretty much humans with an animal head and just a few extra features. I like it
> 
> To this fandom porn holds a major significance. Honestly, I like it too, it just isn't my main focus but unfortunately the same can't be said about the vast majority of people in the community. To about 99% of furries out there the porn is what's it all about so everything outside of that is usually completely ignored. Unless you have God-like artistic skills, then maybe people will look at your stuff even if it hasn't got dicks, vaginas, boobs and/or asses in it. Pretty damn disheartening, I know.
> I wonder how I can get people to look at the normal stuff I make and the only solution I can think of is to make adult content as well, then maybe, only maybe, people will look at my other general audience stuff too.
> ...



I would like to appeal to more than just this community. I try to make my characters relatable, and as I said, they're more human than anything else. I just thought that given the characters' imagery and the content of the story, I might be able maybe set myself up with a little fanbase or something. My stuff is pretty tame. no one here would find any of it shocking.

The story is a nice little action/adventure. a guys' girlfriend gets kidnapped by a terrorist organization and held for ransom. long story short, he has to deliver the ransom but everything goes to shit. lots of betrayal and mystery. he ends up having to team up with some of them and fight their way out. he has to struggle with who he can trust and what he's willing to do to survive.


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Charrio said:


> OK first off, what audience are you aiming at?
> The furry genre or like everyone?
> 
> My book in the works goes about it as a story not making a big deal of the anthros or human constructs.
> ...



hello. 

As I said, I don't really play into the animal side of it super hard, so I don't think that it would be a direct appeal to the furry genre other than the fact that the characters are anthro. I would love to have a more general audience, but I think that maybe it would be easier to get off the ground or start to build a fan-base in a place like this. Where the imagery is seen as more the norm.

And as for the sex. yes it happens. The characters are adults in high-stress environments. They form relationships. they have sex. but there's a big difference between a basic-cable sex scene and some graphic penetration. you can convey the act without the graphic imagery and I'm not saying that it's necessarily distasteful or inappropriate. if that's your thing, more power to you. I am saying that I'm not comfortable with it and I am especially not comfortable producing it. 

Thanks


----------



## Conker (May 10, 2015)

I wouldn't worry about it, unless you SPECIFICALLY try to target furries. If you're just doing a comic with animal people, then _Tooth and Claw _has you beat, and they certainly don't follow the generic furry stereotypes. No dick-chugging foxes to be found, at any rate.

People still go back to _Redwall _and old Disney movies without much trouble too. 

I also think that for every few furries who want all of their foxes to be sluts, there are another few who hate the stereotypes and just want characters. Slutfoxes are for porn. If you're writing porn, then maybe reconsider your stances, but if you aren't, then bugger the stereotypes and just go with what works. More fun that way anyways.


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Conker said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, unless you SPECIFICALLY try to target furries. If you're just doing a comic with animal people, then _Tooth and Claw _has you beat, and they certainly don't follow the generic furry stereotypes. No dick-chugging foxes to be found, at any rate.
> 
> People still go back to _Redwall _and old Disney movies without much trouble too.
> 
> I also think that for every few furries who want all of their foxes to be sluts, there are another few who hate the stereotypes and just want characters. Slutfoxes are for porn. If you're writing porn, then maybe reconsider your stances, but if you aren't, then bugger the stereotypes and just go with what works. More fun that way anyways.



The furry community isn't my specific target. I would like to think that my characters are written well enough that they are widely relatable. That's probably just me being optimistic. I was just hoping that the things that I had seen and read were from a very vocal minority or at least not a majority of people. Like you said: a few see it this way and hopefully a few see it the other way. 

I'm definitely not writing any porn. And I certainly wouldn't compromise my characters just to get a few more views. I wasn't necessarily talking about completely caving to the stereotypes, but for the most part, a rarely even recognize the fact that they're animals. They wiggle their ears or they wag their tails, but aside from that, they're just people. If maybe showcasing a little more of their animal side led to greater immersion, then I would consider it. 

Thanks


----------



## Amiir (May 10, 2015)

Alright then. Just go for it Tom, don't pay any mind to the stereotypes. 

I'd like to give a look at what you got cooking, if you already are and if you don't mind. Any drawings, sketches, character descriptions, you name it. The little story you mentioned is nice, it kinda sounds like an action movie. Could you give me a link to your userpage please?


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Amiir said:


> Alright then. Just go for it Tom, don't pay any mind to the stereotypes.
> 
> I'd like to give a look at what you got cooking, if you already are and if you don't mind. Any drawings, sketches, character descriptions, you name it. The little story you mentioned is nice, it kinda sounds like an action movie. Could you give me a link to your userpage please?



Uh. the simple answer is not right now. I'm at a kind of awkward stage in the story development. I've sketched (more than a storyboard, less than a full detailed rendering. the character animations are all there, but there's little to no background detail) the entire first arc of the story and it's well over 900 pages of drawings. I have this done over multiple sketchbooks. I'm not an amazing artist, especially not compared to some of the things you can see here, but I would have to say that I'm average at worst. This was like a 2-year project, and it's safe to say that my skills have greatly improved in that time and some of those earlier drawings and formatting choices... well, they aren't great. I finished this huge project and it made me feel like I could actually make something of it, so I invested in myself, I bought myself a new WACOM tablet, and I've started learning to work on digital art. Now I'm at this super awkward place where I want to continue writing and fleshing out the rest of the story, but I also need to start from the beginning and re-do EVERYTHING so I can actually get my little franchise started. I have to learn all of these new techniques with the tablet. just ugggg. 

There's currently nothing on my user page. This forum is literally the first thing I've put up. I'm a little busy at the moment, but if you give me a couple days maybe I can at least pull some ref sheets up or something.


----------



## Amiir (May 10, 2015)

Alrighty then. When you got new stuff up, message me if you like


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Amiir said:


> Alrighty then. When you got new stuff up, message me if you like



I probably will. I'm a little hesitant to share bits before I have the whole thing ready to go. Probably just being paranoid, but you never know who could just come in and snatch stuff up. I haven't done a lot of dealing with art on the internet, but I have a buddy who is a professional designer, and people are ALWAYS trying to steal his stuff and pass it as theirs. Which, I mean I guess my characters aren't really anything astoundingly unique (visually, anyway), but still... does that sort of thing happen?


----------



## Amiir (May 10, 2015)

tomhanks2 said:


> I probably will. I'm a little hesitant to share bits before I have the whole thing ready to go. Probably just being paranoid, but you never know who could just come in and snatch stuff up. I haven't done a lot of dealing with art on the internet, but I have a buddy who is a professional designer, and people are ALWAYS trying to steal his stuff and pass it as theirs. Which, I mean I guess my characters aren't really anything astoundingly unique (visually, anyway), but still... does that sort of thing happen?



I reckon it does. It's understandable that you don't want some cunt to steal your stuff but do you really want to let some wretched thievering scumbag keep you from showing your creativity to the world? Who are they to do that to you? They're nobodies. Besides, there is the _chance _that your art _might _be stolen, it isn't certain that it inevitably will.


----------



## Charrio (May 10, 2015)

tomhanks2 said:


> I probably will. I'm a little hesitant to share bits before I have the whole thing ready to go. Probably just being paranoid, but you never know who could just come in and snatch stuff up. I haven't done a lot of dealing with art on the internet, but I have a buddy who is a professional designer, and people are ALWAYS trying to steal his stuff and pass it as theirs. Which, I mean I guess my characters aren't really anything astoundingly unique (visually, anyway), but still... does that sort of thing happen?



I only share part of stuff, the opening like i have up. 
The meat is not there, and wont be till i like you am done. 
However people have no idea what your writing and when you post it. 
Online people are intimidated or put off by giant walls of text. Which is 
why when i post stuff i try and keep it to around 3-4 pages so i don't 
overwhelm people. 

As to people stealing stuff, it happens. 
If you're that afraid dont post it at all, not online have it put to 
book or print. Even then people steal from books all the time. 

I think you're being really paranoid as you have no real name yet and
it won't be a target. Also keep the rough drafts and date them, if you have 
them in print like written with pen or pencil even better. 

But yeah... I'll stop.


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Amiir said:


> I reckon it does. It's understandable that you don't want some cunt to steal your stuff but do you really want to let some wretched thievering scumbag keep you from showing your creativity to the world? Who are they to do that to you? They're nobodies. Besides, there is the _chance _that your art _might _be stolen, it isn't certain that it inevitably will.



I absolutely wouldn't let them stop me. I fully intend to finish my work and I want to share it. However, realistically, I know remastering and digitizing the entirety of what I've created is going to take time. A lot of time. And worst case scenario, I would hate to throw my characters up here, some punks rips them off without me knowing and starts some weekly chump comic and six months later I'm finally done and ready to post. All of the sudden I learn my characters are already being used somewhere else. they have their own backstories somewhere else and they're already established. I have no credibility and I have to end up fighting that this was mine to begin with and shit... I guess setting up a large portfolio and having my own proof would help, but still. I would be fighting to push back history. But that's probably the absolute WORST case scenario.

I don't know. I'm sure I'm being stupid. I'm sure there are some very simple settings that just let me decide who can see my stuff in the first place.


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 10, 2015)

Charrio said:


> I only share part of stuff, the opening like i have up.
> The meat is not there, and wont be till i like you am done.
> However people have no idea what your writing and when you post it.
> Online people are intimidated or put off by giant walls of text. Which is
> ...



No, that's really sound advice. I know that I'm being overly paranoid and it's actually particularly _because_ I have no name. If someone wants to try and steal my work after I'm started and established and pass it as theirs, I can defend against that. I can prove that it's mine. I'm much more concerned that someone could take the snippets that I post and beat me to the punch with my own material. Of course it won't be complete. what they come up with might not be as good. it might be better. but I really don't want to have to fight with some tool and say, "no this is mine and this is how it was supposed to be."

the damage is already done at that point. 

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that when I'm ready with something substantial, I'll have no fear of posting my material. I know that I shouldn't be afraid now. Nobody's going to come digging for me to take my artwork. Hell, nobody would even know TO come digging for me. But to me it's a matter of risk VS reward. I can wait and mitigate my risk with no consequence or I can post early and increase my risk for little or no reward. 

I'm sure there's some very simple workaround where I can set who can view my work and I'm over here freaking out over nothing.


----------



## hup2thepenguin (May 10, 2015)

Haha, I know that same feel. I keep my stuff super secret before I publish it. Sometimes, I take a printed rough draft I've edited and marked up and sign and date it, then mail it to myself so the post office time stamps it. That way, if anyone tries to steal it down the road, I have a sealed envelope that proves that I had it before they did. Probably overboard, but oh well


----------



## RailRide (May 11, 2015)

Easy way to keep stuff off the FA frontpage if you want to post to your account on the down-low:

Upload it to scraps--it's just a checkbox on the upload screen. Only people who are watching you will be notified of its posting, and it won't appear on the 'Recent Uploads' frontpage. If as you say, your account is empty, then there should be no one watching you.

Later on, if you want those pieces in your regular gallery, you can just go to edit the details (like if you were editing the description) and un-check the "Place in Scraps" box. Still won't appear on the frontpage, and your account contents are pretty much incognito...at least till you start faving, watching or commenting on the main site. Then there's the risk someone might follow your avatar back to your homepage and see you have stuff there 

---PCJ


----------



## RailRide (May 11, 2015)

hup2thepenguin said:


> Haha, I know that same feel. I keep my stuff super secret before I publish it. Sometimes, I take a printed rough draft I've edited and marked up and sign and date it, then mail it to myself so the post office time stamps it. That way, if anyone tries to steal it down the road, I have a sealed envelope that proves that I had it before they did. Probably overboard, but oh well



Not an authority on this, but I've heard in a number of places that this tactic doesn't work if it gets to the point where you have to take someone to court over it. Get your formal copyright registration forms here. Costs money (so you might want to polish it beyond a rough draft if you're the only one who's seen it at this point), but it'll stand up in court. So I've heard.

---PCJ


----------



## tomhanks2 (May 11, 2015)

RailRide said:


> Easy way to keep stuff off the FA frontpage if you want to post to your account on the down-low:
> 
> Upload it to scraps--it's just a checkbox on the upload screen. Only people who are watching you will be notified of its posting, and it won't appear on the 'Recent Uploads' frontpage. If as you say, your account is empty, then there should be no one watching you.
> 
> ...



Well, thank you for that.


----------

