# Japan's Fat Shaming vs American's Fat Acceptance



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 26, 2018)

I've been around some foreigners from the US who complains about how Japan is so rampant on fat shaming and they want Japan want to be enlightened by the body positivity movement.

That personally irks me, I personally believe that people should maintain a weight that's enough to prevent health complications like stroke or heart attacks but shaming from the japanese media and society is also a little excessive.

I find myself thinking whether fat shaming is a good thing. If it keeps everyone healthy, why change it right?


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jul 26, 2018)

Idk can we just export the landwhales to your country as sumo wrestlers?


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## Jarren (Jul 26, 2018)

The sumos would win. Underneath that fat is a wall of rippling muscle. Most of our fat people don't have that added benefit.


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jul 26, 2018)

Jarren said:


> The sumos would win. Underneath that fat is a wall of rippling muscle. Most of our fat people don't have that added benefit.


You fail to explain how this is STILL a bad idea.










if anything you're making it better!


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## TrishaCat (Jul 26, 2018)

There are ways to encourage people to take care of their bodies without making people feel bad though. Shame is unnecessarily hurtful, and, in some cases, might only make things worse. Some people eat when they're upset for example.

People should certainly be encouraged to take care of their bodies, but it should be done carefully so as to not offend or upset.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jul 27, 2018)




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## Yakamaru (Jul 27, 2018)

Shaming people can be used in a way to actually IMPROVE people's health.

There are a lot of potential health implications of being overweight, and the problems only pile up the higher you go in terms of weight. There are differences between muscle mass and fat, as fat are just deadweight and increases risk of everything from heart attack to blood clots.

Having been overweight myself and currently going down you have no idea how much my health have improved after I started losing weight. Granted, it wasn't through fat shaming, it was through my own determination, but still.

Want to lose weight? You need a motivator. In some cases, it's being shamed for it. In other cases it's merely setting goals and having the determination to reach those goals. It's a matter of what drives you to reach your goals.


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## Yvvki (Jul 27, 2018)

I don't like it because all of these look good to me. :C How are they fat?


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## Yakamaru (Jul 27, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> I don't like it because all of these look good to me. :C How are they fat?


Ah, Japan. 0% to 100% looks good to me, to be honest. Below that, they look a little.. Skinny.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jul 27, 2018)

Being fat sucks and slows down day-to-day activities, and life in general. There's no reason why it should be accepted, and least of all something to be proud of.

Source: me


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## Sagt (Jul 27, 2018)

My mother used to be fat, although not even for reasons that were really within her control. She has always done a fair bit of exercise and eaten relatively healthily, but each time she was pregnant she gained weight. She also has an underactive thyroid, which didn't help.

For a really long time, she couldn't really lose much weight, no matter what diet she tried. Though, about 6 or 7 years ago, she found that swimming and using this diet by a company called 'Weight Watchers' worked for her. (Nowadays she's a healthy weight and fairly athletic. She actually lost enough weight that the diet company she used offered her a job, which she didn't take, as a public speaker at these local seminar things.)

Personally, I think the mental state some people have been put into from being shamed isn't healthy at all. Losing weight is a good, healthy decision, but I'm not a fan of putting people down for being fat, especially since losing weight isn't simple or easy for a lot of people.

I think a lot of the body positivity stuff is bullshit too, though. I mean, while shaming is excessive, glorifying fatness isn't much better.


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## Sagt (Jul 27, 2018)

Oh, and I've never really heard of that stereotype from Japan, but I have from South Korea. Not just with fatness, but with general beauty.

Over there, supposedly there is a very large portion of people who feel pressured by society to spend large amounts of money on plastic surgery. Like, to the degree where it's actually a relatively common gift from parents to their children, for graduating high school (well, the South Korean equivalent of a high school). Not just out of shame, but because fitting the standard of beauty there often helps them when they're finding a job. That's a really gross culture to have, imo.


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## Some Moron (Jul 27, 2018)

I find that obese people are hard to look at, so I  wouldn't be near them long enough to complain.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jul 27, 2018)

Yeah, um, no.  I'm of the stance that fat-shaming is only going to make matters worse, on account of the mental state of the target.  A lot fewer people are resilient to those kinds of insults than you'd think.

And yet I think the body positivity movement has well overreached.  Namely, the extreme people who THINK they believe in body positivity deriding the science surrounding weight loss.

Then again, I'm a big guy who's still on the road to recovery from depression, and in a bit of a... fragile mental state still.  My doctor says that I should focus on how much I exercise and to accept the small victories (I should be targeting 7 hours of moderate exercise a week - but any week where I can get more than 3 is still good news).



RabidCoon said:


> A full ⅓ of Americans are obese, which is not okay.



This statistic is a pretty common one, and my problem with it is that it strikes me as relying on the BMI calculation - a calculation I despise.  I'd be more likely to believe that 60% or more of Americans have problematic weight issues than rely on a mathematical formula.

(My main reason for hating the BMI calculator so much, though, is that I have a body type that makes a "normal" weight by its calculations unreasonable.  Even after working out 18+ hours a week - which was in middle and high school, when I was participating in two sports - the lowest weight I got in high school was 187 pounds, which only BARELY makes it into normal for my CURRENT 6 foot 2 inch height.)


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## ScrewLoose (Jul 27, 2018)




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## Fallowfox (Jul 27, 2018)

I feel like people who champion fat shaming are more interested in finding an excuse to bully people than they are in actually helping anybody. 

Scientists have found that people who are 'fat shamed' are less likely to lose weight, less likely to seek health care, less likely to exercise and likelier to eat more:
Social stigma of obesity - Wikipedia
People who are bullied for being overweight are more likely to suffer from depression, more likely to feel anxious and likelier to turn to drugs. 

So, surprise surprise, being bullied actually has very negative effects on somebody's health and you shouldn't ever do it to somebody.


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## Infrarednexus (Jul 27, 2018)

It's not wrong to want to encourage people to loose weight and be healthy. It is wrong to be a total dick about it.


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## Le Chat Nécro (Jul 27, 2018)

This is going to sound like the conversation we had about mental health. Short version: don't be a dick. I personally do not think that shaming is healthy at all. Even if being fat is physically unhealthy, self hatred and loathing is mentally unhealthy. Sacrificing mind for body isn't a great plan.

And I feel like a lot of body shamers aren't doing it from a place of concern. The guy in the street yelling "hey fat ass" and snickering isn't concerned about your heart health, he just wants to laugh at you. And if it does somehow coming from a place of concern, you have no idea what they're already doing and what's going to be helpful. Someone posted about their mom having health issues that impeded her weight loss. She wasn't being a lazy fuck. She was working hard. But shame culture would have her ridiculed just the same for something she had no control over. How would that be helpful?

I know body positivity has gotten a bad rep, and it can be over the top, but I do think it's important not to hate yourself. It's important to at least like the body you're in, in general. Cause anything done is out hatred is going to have a bad outcome one way or another. Even if your body is fat, it's still yours. It still gets you through your day and does all this amazing stuff. Change it cause _you_ want to make it better, not because someone is telling you that you're worthless.


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## Nihles (Jul 27, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> There are ways to encourage people to take care of their bodies without making people feel bad though. Shame is unnecessarily hurtful, and, in some cases, might only make things worse. Some people eat when they're upset for example.
> 
> People should certainly be encouraged to take care of their bodies, but it should be done carefully so as to not offend or upset.


Too much nuance. The cynic in me thinks that it will never catch on in soind bite media culture. 

I do completely agree with you. What is attractive to me is a healthy body. For some people, that involves a little extra muscle and padding. Others are just naturally skinny.


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## AppleButt (Jul 27, 2018)

Fat shaming isn’t okay to me and no amount of finding stories about some rarity of a human being where shaming actually helped them is going to change that.

For most people, it doesn’t work.

It could potentially make people lose weight in unhealthy ways.  I personally know someone who turned to Bulemia in order to lose weight because of the shame they felt.  

My sister is also a bit overweight and was shamed and bullied for it throughout school.  It didn’t work on her either.

I’m not okay with fat acceptance either, but I’m okay with feeling okay with yourself for being human beings.

We aren’t stupid and we all damn well know “fat shamers” couldn’t give two shits about how healthy fat people are or aren’t.  You just don’t want to look at them.  There are exceptions to this too but that’s rare.

I believe there’s a fix to the obesity epidemic that doesn’t involve shaming, but I do not believe Americans are going to accept that any time soon.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jul 27, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I've been around some foreigners from the US who complains about how Japan is so rampant on fat shaming and they want Japan want to be enlightened by the body positivity movement.
> 
> That personally irks me, I personally believe that people should maintain a weight that's enough to prevent health complications like stroke or heart attacks but shaming from the japanese media and society is also a little excessive.
> 
> I find myself thinking whether fat shaming is a good thing. If it keeps everyone healthy, why change it right?


Fat shaming is bad, but encouraging people to eat healthy is good. Americans inhale food like air, and need to learn moderation.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Jul 27, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> It's not wrong to want to encourage people to loose weight and be healthy. It is wrong to be a total dick about it.


^This! It is better to encourage others to be healthier; rather than to cruelly dismiss, and shame others for being overweight and/or obese. It can destroy a humans self-worth for being constantly insulted about there appearance.


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## CindyPig (Jul 27, 2018)

I find extremes to be comforting.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jul 27, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> All you have to do is walk through almost any Walmart anywhere in the country and you will pretty much see it hold true.



That kind of approach would only lead me to believe the figure is 1 in 8 or so rather than 1 in 3.  Either I'm going at the wrong times or the threshold for looking obese is a lot less than I can perceive without offending people.

Regardless, I feel like my point was missed, so let me try again.  My issue with the statistic isn't the proportion - in fact, I think it might be UNDERshooting a little (and where I saw the 1-in-3 statistic, it specifically said "more than 1 in 3 adults" for obesity and had a lower statistic for children and adolescents).  My issue is the reliance on a one-size-fits-all formula (especially one with the kinds of limitations that BMI has - someone had made a post about it earlier but they retracted it) for something like health issues.

Anything of a one-size-fits-all nature strikes me as an (unacceptable) excuse for shaming.  That goes for most things, but especially in the realm of physical health.


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## Shadowprints (Jul 27, 2018)

Fat acceptance is like socially assisted suicide.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jul 27, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> Personal analysis of how many people in a store isn't a very accurate analysis. You're likely comparing people to yourself. That may or may not skew your perception one way or the other.



Undoubtedly, and it doesn't help that I'm quite bulky myself.  As I said, the threshold "is a lot less than I can perceive", so the notion that my view is skewed isn't a maybe but a definite.  However, since that was all of the response you gave me at the time, I felt I had to work with it.



RabidCoon said:


> You're hoping to scratch at the surface of the argument but ignoring what's underneath



Because I'm specifically trying to focus on the shaming vs. acceptance issue that this thread started on.  It's also why I attempted to forcibly pigeonhole the means of measurement back into fitting that issue.

As for the three underlying issues you just mentioned?  No questions about their validity, but they've been said often enough that I think Americans have either tuned them out completely or misinterpreted them as an attempt at shaming.

The farm policy bit you mentioned earlier on is something I don't think ever comes up, though.


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## WithMyBearHands (Jul 27, 2018)

I just don’t like people who don’t take responsibility for why they’re fat.  Stop claiming genetics for fucking everything.  I’m tubby bc I don’t exercise.  So are most people.  Get over it.  After that, eat whatever the fuck you want, we’re all food for worms anyway


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## ShyFox (Jul 28, 2018)

I do not understand either concept. Shaming somebody for their weight is surely considered harassment, and not something I could realistically see anyone standing for. Fat acceptance on the other hand is a confusing concept. Being fat has never exactly been stigmatized to the point in which we would need a movement to help combat it, unlike other things like LGBT. I do believe one should accept and treat every human being with kindness and generosity, regardless of what they look like. To me, this is common decency and not particularly something one needs a movement for. We as a society, should be pushing for more education and action when it comes to managing a healthy weight, as obesity has indeed become a huge issue. We should not shame anyone, but we should encourage them to make healthier lifestyle choices. We should also never allow our perception to be tainted; especially with the idea that being fat is healthy. Even more important than avoiding ignorance being spread, is to educate children. They are the future, and allowing them to fall victim to obesity at a young age is quite a poor decision to make. 
All in all, we should advocate for good health. It may not do much, as people are in charge of themselves at the end of the day. If the people cannot see the importance in maintaining a healthy weight, all the education in the world won't do good. I do believe with time though, and shaping good attitudes early on in someone's life, we can become better about our weight, lifestyles, and actions.


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## Sunburst_Odell (Jul 28, 2018)

I don't approve of fat-shaming. I think it's wrong to go and insult an overweight person because not everyone is just a slob that doesn't care, some are actually trying or even have an eating disorder and you never know what the story is behind it. Generally, insulting and harassing a person is the wrong way to approach the problem.

That being said, I don't approve of phrases like, "you're not fat, you're fluffy!" and other things that enable that sort of lifestyle. A little chubbiness isn't that bad but, lets face it, being overweight is not a healthy way to live. You can love the person but disagree with their decision, and you should encourage that person to try to lose weight--politely and in a constructive way like giving them advice while being respectful--because there are health risks for being overweight. 

I don't think I'm directly on-topic with the thread but I thought I'd state my opinion on the matter in general.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

On the subject of punitive social stigma,  studies have found that overweight people are less likely to be offered jobs, compared to equally qualified candidates.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 28, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> People should certainly be encouraged to take care of their bodies.



Even this is seen by the "Body Positivity*" movement as fat shaming. They call it "concern trolling". lol
Encouraging people to maintain a healthy weight, even if you're a medical practitioner, is now seen as some sort of -ism by validation starved Instagram thots and the like.

(btw I love me a shapely fat chick)


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## Simo (Jul 28, 2018)

It's a very good Violent Femmes song.






~

But all in all, the US is still very much a country of at least trying to be more thin than fat...cleaving to a certain ideal, which varies for men and women.

It is what is modeled by the media, in TV, films, advertising, and everywhere; the idea being that if you can be convinced your body does not somehow fit this certain ideal of beauty, you can then be sold any number of goods, as if to buy back your own self esteem through the consumption of products and goods.

America's very _soul_ is fat, and out of shape, having learned to worship goods, money and consumption, above all else.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Japan has some troubling aspects, but the fat shaming aspect is something I agree with. Obesity is an endemic in the US, and I would prefer people be conscious of their body weight for the sake of their own health. Being overweight is not healthy.
Though, the abhorrent work culture in Japan and the extremes of the collectivist mentality are respectively issue Japan has yet to solve.

This need to belong to a soulless corporation or some group to dedicate your life too, sounds quite troubling to me, personally.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Japan has some troubling aspects, but the fat shaming aspect is something I agree with. Obesity is an endemic in the US, and I would prefer people be conscious of their body weight for the sake of their own health. Being overweight is not healthy.
> Though, the abhorrent work culture in Japan and the extremes of the collectivist mentality are respectively issue Japan has yet to solve.
> 
> This need to belong to a soulless corporation or some group to dedicate your life too, sounds quite troubling to me, personally.



Studies have shown that shaming fat people makes them less likely to lose weight and more likely to suffer from mental health problems.

The obesity epidemic requires a solution, but that's not it.

Japan's low levels of overweight people (~25% compared to the US's ~70%) probably has more to do with cultural paradigms like Japanese cuisine, exercise breaks at work and the amount of driving in cars compared to walking.


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## Xitheon (Jul 28, 2018)

*See above.*


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Studies have shown that shaming fat people makes them less likely to lose weight and more likely to suffer from mental health problems.
> 
> The obesity epidemic requires a solution, but that's not it.
> 
> Japan's low levels of overweight people (~25% compared to the US's ~70%) probably has more to do with cultural paradigms like Japanese cuisine, exercise breaks at work and the amount of driving in cars compared to walking.


I'd like to see these studies.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> I'd like to see these studies.



Bombak et al found that overweight people enjoyed exercising, but that those who were stigmatised were less likely to continue exercising:
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12889-015-2456-0

Neumark Sztainer et al found that overweight people who are shamed are more likely to over-eat:
www.researchgate.net: (PDF) Weight-teasing Among Adolescents:...

Phelan et al found that overweight people who are shamed are more likely to develop depression, report loneliness or abuse drugs:
link.springer.com: The Adverse Effect of Weight Stigma on the Well-Being of Medical Students with Overweight or Obesity: Findings from a National Survey



I kind of feel like we shouldn't even need studies to tell us that bullying other people about the way they look is an awful thing to do, to be honest.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Bombak et al found that overweight people enjoyed exercising, but that those who were stigmatised were less likely to continue exercising:
> https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12889-015-2456-0
> 
> Neumark Sztainer et al found that overweight people who are shamed are more likely to over-eat:
> ...



I don't agree with bullying, but I don't think obesity should be idealized. Normalizing obesity would just lead to more people feeling there is nothing wrong with it. Something needs to be done about it. Shaming and bullying are not quite the same.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> I don't agree with bullying, but I don't think obesity should be idealized. Normalizing obesity would just lead to more people feeling there is nothing wrong with it.



Well, I don't think the scientists in those studies are suggesting that obesity should be normalised or 'idealised'. 

Given that you requested these studies, what do you think about the scientists' recommendations, having read them?


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Well, I don't think the scientists in those studies are suggesting that obesity should be normalised or 'idealised'.
> 
> Given that you requested these studies, what do you think about the scientists' recommendations, having read them?



It's not like I disagree. If you want to help somebody lose weight, encouragement works better than barbs and insults. But I don't think shaming is the same as bullying.


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## jengatower (Jul 28, 2018)

being fat is not just a personal problem, it's also a problem with society.

and no, i don't mean the "you're not ugly, society is" kind of bullshit. America puts a huge emphasis on food. the food happens to be filled with sweeteners and other garbage. it's also very cheap due to it being made with mass-produced, unhealthy ingredients with little nutritional value. we as a species go absolutely mental for this stuff because they provide a lot of calories in which our body can create or store precious energy out of. people get sucked in because that's what they're surrounded by, especially when you're poor and can't afford actual food. this is why there's an obese epidemic in the US.

Japan is different. the country does have a large emphasis on food, being a tourist attraction, but like what was said above Japan values daily exercise and walking. in many areas of the US many people are too scared to walk due to it being potentially dangerous, plus cars get us places faster. the streets of Japan are a lot safer (but not completely safe of course). Japan also serves much smaller portion sizes compared to America.
as a result, pretty much everyone there is skinny. when they see a fat person (or even a person with a little belly) they're get peeved due to it not being the norm. they're quiet about judgement, but it shows in their media. Japan is a pretty xenophobic country in itself. the country isn't perfect, the body shaming problem being one of them. they also force people to work to death and mental health support is a complete joke.

fat acceptance originally didn't mean "normalizing obesity", it was a way for people to love their body and not force themselves to fit in with a niche demographic.
food for thought, bullying and harassment does nothing. saying it does makes it seem like you're blaming the victim. people handle criticism differently and there's nothing you can do about it. always care about your health first. it's easy to not be an asshole.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> It's not like I disagree. If you want to help somebody lose weight, encouragement works better than barbs and insults. But I don't think shaming is the same as bullying.



Did you read the studies that you asked me to find?
I think that the scientists discuss the idea of stigma in the broad sense, so I don't think they view shaming as a distinct and acceptable way to treat fat people, compared with bullying.

I think most of these authors would view shaming as an example of bullying.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Did you read the studies that you asked me to find?


Yes. I just told you I agree. Every single article details the affects of ridicule, and shaming does not have to be outright ridicule.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> On the subject of punitive social stigma,  studies have found that overweight people are less likely to be offered jobs, compared to equally qualified candidates.


I'm going to jump in here and say that being less likely to get a job offer for someone who is equally qualified, you don't understand that being overweight can be very much an issue. You are at higher risk of having problems and you're sure to get more exhausted quickly. What happens if you need to do some lifting one day at the job and you can't because it legitamitely is a risk to your health? Hell last time I heard the US military was a little concerned about the weight epidemic in the US because there are less people who are fit to be soldiers.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Yes. I just told you I agree. Every single article details the affects of ridicule, and shaming does not have to be outright ridicule.



Well, I think the scientists who wrote these studies would disagree that the idea of 'shaming' somebody is meaningfully different from bullying them.

Shaming people isn't an 'acceptable' form of bullying. It _is_ just bullying.

I think that the authors suggest that the most successful way to help people who are overweight is to avoid making them feel ashamed of their present condition, but to make them feel good about themselves and provide them with the support and encouragement they need to improve their situation.



Ovi the Dragon said:


> I'm going to jump in here and say that being less likely to get a job offer for someone who is equally qualified, you don't understand that being overweight can be very much an issue. You are at higher risk of having problems and you're sure to get more exhausted quickly. What happens if you need to do some lifting one day at the job and you can't because it legitamitely is a risk to your health? Hell last time I heard the US military was a little concerned about the weight epidemic in the US because there are less people who are fit to be soldiers.



So a manual job where somebody isn't as fit as another candidate would be an example where the candidates are _not_ equally qualified, ovi.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Well, I think the scientists who wrote these studies would disagree that the idea of 'shaming' somebody is meaningfully different from bullying them.
> 
> Shaming people isn't an 'acceptable' form of bullying. It _is_ just bullying.
> 
> I think that the authors suggest that the most successful way to help people who are overweight is to avoid making them feel ashamed of their present condition, but to make them feel good about themselves and provide them with the support and encouragement they need to improve their situation.



What if I just said. "Hey, I think being Obese is not ok, and you should strive to not be that weight and we as a society should try to avoid that." It'd be called shaming wouldn't it? But it's not directed specifically at anybody, but they'd all realize that society would prefer that people take care of their health and use it as an impetus to better themselves. I struggle to see anything inherently bad about that statement.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Well, I think the scientists who wrote these studies would disagree that the idea of 'shaming' somebody is meaningfully different from bullying them.
> 
> Shaming people isn't an 'acceptable' form of bullying. It _is_ just bullying.
> 
> ...


Or the people who take care of these slobs can stop giving them as much food as before. You know how many times I've seen someone not even being able to stand because they are too heavy yet they have a family member who buys them fucking cheeseburgers all the time?


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> What if I just said. "Hey, I think being Obese is not ok, and you should strive to not be that weight and we as a society should try to avoid that." It'd be called shaming wouldn't it? But it's not directed specifically at anybody, but they'd all realize that society would prefer that people take care of their health and use it as an impetus to better themselves.



Saying this as a general point of discussion is not shaming. 

If you singled out an overweight person and said this to them in public, then that would be humiliating for them, so then it would become shaming.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Saying this as a general point of discussion is not shaming.
> 
> If you singled out an overweight person and said this to them in public, then that would be humiliating for them, so then it would become shaming.


I guess we disagree on what the connotation of shaming is. Some overweight people inevitably would feel ashamed hearing that. No? They'd feel bad about their weight.


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## Infrarednexus (Jul 28, 2018)

I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out your concerns for someones health and well being, such as obesity, so long as you are polite about it. I used to be a smoker, and like obesity, it's a self destructive lifestyle. I knew that smoking was basically shunned and taboo where I lived, and I had to do it away from people. Those who did smoke were shamed. Shaming didn't help me quit though, but the moment my family talked to me and expressed how concerned they were for my well being. They explained to me why I should quit, and that they would support me every step of the way. To this day I have never touched a cigarette. The shamming from society didn't work, but the support and concern of those around me did.

Smoking isn't the same as obesity, but you get what I am trying to say.


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## aloveablebunny (Jul 28, 2018)

The only reason why someone should bother to worry about their weight is because _they_ want to.

*NOT* because someone else is worried about their weight.

Yes, there is scientific backing that points to obesity as the cause of many health problems. But one can also be not obese and unhealthy. Weight =/= health.

But regardless, worry about your own self. There's no valid nor rational reason to be shaming someone over something only they have the power to change.


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## Water Draco (Jul 28, 2018)

It is a difficult one and I don't agree that fat shaming is a good thing.
Everybody's circumstances are different and it is important to understand the underlying resin for an individual carrying more weight than is medically advised.

I'm presently I'm just over what is recommended and have discussed this with my doctor. I have been advised that for my level of activity and given my past that I am ok at the weight that I presently am, and have been advised not to attempt to lose weight.
I'm only just starting to admit to myself rather than living with the knowledge that I am affected by BDD. It scares me that I could go the same way as before.

Shaming people could push them over the edge and land them in a similar predicament, and I would never wish that on another individual.


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## Troj (Jul 28, 2018)

Fat shaming is:

Treating a fat person as inferior or lesser-than because they're fat
Implying or stating that fat people are fat because they lack moral fiber, willpower, and/or good character, relative to thin people
Automatically assuming that all of a fat person's problems are the result of them being fat, and treating them accordingly
Giving a fat person unhelpful and unsolicited health advice
Insulting or attacking fat people for being fat
Fat shaming is not:

Affirming, repeating, or signal-boosting accurate information about health, fitness, and nutrition
Providing education on health, fitness, and nutrition in appropriate settings to people who've actively or passively consented to receive that information

Giving someone _requested _advice or information on health, fitness, or nutrition


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Troj said:


> Fat shaming is:
> 
> Treating a fat person as inferior or lesser-than because they're fat
> Implying or stating that fat people are fat because they lack moral fiber, willpower, and/or good character, relative to thin people
> ...



Some people are pushing for American society to be content with it's status as having an obesity problem and downplaying the issues that come with being obese.
Some call that shaming to think otherwise. That there is a lack of body positivity. So, for clarification's sake.
The general message that society is obese and that being at that weight has health risks. That would not be against body positivity? I get alot of conflicting opinions on that.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Some people are pushing for American society to be content with it's status as having an obesity problem and downplaying the issues that come with being obese.
> Some call that shaming to think otherwise. That there is a lack of body positivity. So, for clarification's sake.
> *The general message that society is obese and that being at that weight has health risks. That would not be against body positivity?* I get alot of conflicting opinions on that.



No, because that's just reality.


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## Simo (Jul 28, 2018)

I don't think fat shaming works.

It's a lot like fox shaming.

When I see a naughty fox, and say, "BAD, BAD, BAD, BAD Fox!", and even spank the fox, it always just makes the fox go out and be even more wily, mischevious and naughty. Doesn't work at all.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

aloveablebunny said:


> The only reason why someone should bother to worry about their weight is because _they_ want to.
> 
> *NOT* because someone else is worried about their weight.
> 
> ...


Not all unhealthy people are obese, but all obese people are unhealthy.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> No, because that's just reality.


Ok, well to paint you a scenario. I was asked a couple weeks ago about America's obesity epidemic. I summarily gave my opinion, said I am concerned for America and it's citizens and that something needs to be done to remedy this unhealthy state. For that I was told by a couple people that was against body positivity. So, it does leave me unsure as to what others consider shaming. Perhaps it would have been more polite to withhold that statement? But since you don't think that is shaming, I guess I can agree with you there.

If we can agree that it is good to continue to state generally (not personally directed) that being overweight is a health risk and is generally not good for you, I do not have an issue.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Ok, well to paint you a scenario. I was asked a couple weeks ago about America's obesity epidemic. I summarily gave my opinion, said I am concerned for America and it's citizens and that something needs to be done to remedy this unhealthy state. For that I was told by a couple people that was against body positivity. So, it does leave me unsure as to what others consider shaming. Perhaps it would have been more polite to withhold that statement? But since you don't think that is shaming, I guess I can agree with you there.
> 
> If we can agree that it is good to continue to state generally (not personally directed) that being overweight is a health risk and is generally not good for you, I do not have an issue.


When you have fat fighting for room with your organs, of course it's an issue. My dad can barely breath while he sleeps because he's so overweight. He needs to sleep with a loud ass machine that makes him sound like darth vader just so he can keep breathing during the night and not die.


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## Troj (Jul 28, 2018)

It's not either/or.

You can fundamentally accept yourself, while also realizing that there's always room for improvement. 

You can also recognize the need for change without shaming, hating, or hurting yourself for not being the way you ideally should be.

Body positivity is about recognizing that one size literally doesn't fit all, that different bodies have inherent advantages and disadvantages, and that people have worth, beauty, and value beyond their physical appearance. It's absolutely compatible with recognizing that various lifestyle habits and choices carry various risks and rewards.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

Troj said:


> It's not either/or.
> 
> You can fundamentally accept yourself, while also realizing that there's always room for improvement.
> 
> ...


Tell me what the pros are of my dad barely being able to breath at night because he has so much damn fat literally smothing him? It's a lot more than an appearance problem. His life is in danger because he is fat. I wouldn't give a shit if people were fat if it didn't cause health problems.


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## Yvvki (Jul 28, 2018)

You can barely eat and still be fat. I'm living proof of this... Usually only eat once a day around 8pm... Depression and toxic parents made me gain like crazy... which is sad because I was a very fit kid who could run like the wind...
Moved to the city and it completely ruined me...


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## Water Draco (Jul 28, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> You can barely eat and still be fat. I'm living proof of this... Usually only eat once a day around 8pm... Depression and toxic parents made me gain like crazy... which is sad because I was a very fit kid who could run like the wind...
> Moved to the city and it completely ruined me...




There are times that you would like to be able to respond by placing a cosy blanket around a person's shoulders and offer a hot tea or coco.


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## Troj (Jul 28, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Tell me what the pros are of my dad barely being able to breath at night because he has so much damn fat literally smothing him? It's a lot more than an appearance problem. His life is in danger because he is fat. I wouldn't give a shit if people were fat if it didn't cause health problems.



Extreme body types carry more health risks, whether we're talking about anorexia or obesity.

But, outside of the extremes, multiple factors contribute to overall health, and you can't always tell someone's overall health just by looking at them.

Fundamentally, treating someone badly, making rude comments, or offering unsolicited advice because their appearance strikes you as "gross" or "unhealthy" is obnoxious.  That's what needs to stop. We can acknowledge facts and realities about health and educate people about their health without treating them like subhuman garbage.

The comments and lectures fat people get from armchair "experts" are overwhelmingly driven by moral judgments and visceral disgust rather than some kind of pure and innocent concern for their health, and we need to confront that.


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## Yvvki (Jul 28, 2018)

Water Draco said:


> There are times that you would like to be able to respond by placing a cosy blanket around a person's shoulders and offer a hot tea or coco.


you has green tea? ;v;


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2018)

Troj said:


> Extreme body types carry more health risks, whether we're talking about anorexia or obesity.
> 
> But, outside of the extremes, multiple factors contribute to overall health, and you can't always tell someone's overall health just by looking at them.
> 
> Fundamentally, treating someone badly, making rude comments, or offering unsolicited advice because their appearance strikes you as "gross" or "unhealthy" is obnoxious.  That's what needs to stop. We can acknowledge facts and realities about health and educate people about their health without treating them like subhuman garbage.



Well, I agree, outright ridicule is needless, but is it acceptable if I intervene if I feel their weight threatens their life? Say it's a friend and he has a concerning weight problem, I guess in the same way somebody might have a smoking problem. Is it rude of me if I see his issue only getting worse and I worry for him and politely intervene and tell him I am worried about his weight and what it's doing to him?


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## Oblique Lynx (Jul 28, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> On the subject of punitive social stigma,  studies have found that overweight people are less likely to be offered jobs, compared to equally qualified candidates.


That'd make a good bit of sense


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## Fallowfox (Jul 28, 2018)

Oblique Lynx said:


> That'd make a good bit of sense



Well, I'd describe it as a 'bad bit of sense'. 

Social stigma against overweight people exacerbates deterioration of their health. 
That harms people we love and it harms our society as a whole.


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## Troj (Jul 28, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Well, I agree, outright ridicule is needless, but is it acceptable if I intervene if I feel their weight threatens their life? Say it's a friend and he has a concerning weight problem, I guess in the same way somebody might have a smoking problem. Is it rude of me if I see his issue only getting worse and I worry for him and politely intervene and tell him I am worried about his weight and what it's doing to him?



I'd say, treat it as you would any concern or troubling observation the same magnitude.

But, people need to realize that most fat people a) realize they're fat, b) feel awkward or bad about it, and c) have already tried to lose weight. "Did you know you're fat, and have you tried dieting?" is not helpful. Jumping to conclusions about why someone is fat is also presumptuous and unhelpful, as is assuming that they can be "cured" with this-or-that magic bullet.

Actually, I'd recommend shifting the focus away from body size, and towards health and wellness, and offering to be a _cooperative_ and _non-judgmental _partner or "accountabili-buddy" in a concrete and feasible health plan. "Hey, I think we should both commit to taking daily walks together," sounds a hell of a lot better than, "Have you tried eating less?"

The research has shown that shame can cause people to spiral deeper into the very bad habits that they need to break. Dissing people isn't the way to help most people change.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 28, 2018)

Question: Is severe obesity considered an disability there?

Here in Japan if you (age over 45) exceed certain BMI/Waistline (85 cm for men and 90 cm for women) you get arrested or fined 
though getting arrested always never happen but you can get fined for it

Some wards here even remove some coverage off your Hokken (Health Card)


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jul 28, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Shaming people can be used in a way to actually IMPROVE people's health.
> 
> There are a lot of potential health implications of being overweight, and the problems only pile up the higher you go in terms of weight. There are differences between muscle mass and fat, as fat are just deadweight and increases risk of everything from heart attack to blood clots.
> 
> ...



Apparently that one guy lost over 200 pounds in twelve months. Should I start texting you “fat fuck” daily?


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## Yvvki (Jul 28, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> People should be concerned about their weight, amongst many other things. Acquitting people of any personal responsibility is probably not actually that helpful. A gentle nudge toward self improvement is often a very good idea for some people, unless they're just natural a certain size.



I think she was more focused on the aspect of people being rude about it. You should be concerned if you honestly love or care about the person... It would be bad not to be concerned. It's really the matter of how you approach it, and let's be honest. A lot of people have no tact when it comes to that kind of thing.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

Troj said:


> Extreme body types carry more health risks, whether we're talking about anorexia or obesity.
> 
> But, outside of the extremes, multiple factors contribute to overall health, and you can't always tell someone's overall health just by looking at them.
> 
> ...


Tell me how body fat fighting for space with your vital organs can be healthy.


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## -..Legacy..- (Jul 28, 2018)

Or basic hydraulic principles.

A pump creates X fluid pressure per pump over a standard volume. 

Increase that volume through extended pathways, fluid pressure drops further from the source.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 28, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> Or basic hydraulic principles.
> 
> A pump creates X fluid pressure per pump over a standard volume.
> 
> Increase that volume through extended pathways, fluid pressure drops further from the source.


You doin me a confusion sergal man.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2018)

It isn't healthy to be overweight--but, there are definitely fat people who are healthier than you expect, and there are thin people who are unhealthier than you'd expect, because "health" doesn't hinge on a single factor. I know people heavier than me who have better HDL and LDL levels, for example, likely due to a combination of genetics and lifestyle. (Being consistently sedentary is just as much a risk factor as being fat, incidentally.)

But, unless you're their doctor, health coach, life coach, personal trainer, designated "accountabili-buddy," or other informed and directly involved party, another adult's personal life choices and overall health are usually none of your damn business--and if you're going to lecture or insult people for being fat, it's only fair to treat _everyone_ who makes unhealthy life choices the exact same way, eh? (And really, if you hate SJWs, why would you want to become the health equivalent of an SJW?) If you find yourself fixating on fat people _exclusively_, the core issue may be with you, and not them.

My core point here has been that, unhealthy or not, fat people still deserve to be treated with basic kindness and respect, and also deserve to like and accept themselves _just as much as anyone else, _even as they work towards positive improvement.

It's telling and sad that sentiments like "accept and make room for different body types," "people should fundamentally love and accept themselves," and "be kind to people" are automatically interpreted as some kind of dangerous denialism or radical fatty apologism. Part of it may be a genuine reaction to some "body positivity" advocates who have tried to sweep hard truths and facts under the rug in the name of "niceness," and part of it is frankly due to a lot of people not wanting to lose their delicious, delicious superiority over the fatties.

But, suffice it to say, Americans are getting fatter, and we're taking the rest of the developed world with us. Multiple factors are in play, so the problem won't be fixed in a day by just zeroing in on one lone factor or another.


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## Yvvki (Jul 29, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> Some people have no tact in general. They will just say what they think. Often this is not a good idea. Much better is an that takes into account nuances such as a person's possible physical issues, psychological ones, and so on. Sometimes it's that, other times it's honestly just bad diet and lack of self control. After all, extremely fatty burgers do taste good.



Well... I can't speak for other fat people, but I got pretty big just through stress of my family alone....
I was never allowed to eat out growing up... It was terrible though, instead of playing at recess I was running laps around the park to try and stop my body from gaining...
I think after I had to have my appendix taken out, and then hurting a ligament in my ankle.... Plus being forced to live in the city.... Then my father telling me I was obese and ugly every day when I wasn't...
This is what I looked like when my dad was telling me this btw, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ( yes I have two legs, I was angled weird and the other was behind the one shown. xD )

It broke me growing up... This is when i was just getting out of my teens. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




You can see how dead my eyes were after years of being called obese and ugly...

I'm just glad that I never turned to drugs or anything like that, and I'm glad I was able to move out from my family, even if the damage has already been done. Although it has been extremely hard to get rid of all the weight I gained over the years... :l


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## -..Legacy..- (Jul 29, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> You doin me a confusion sergal man.



Your heart does not increase in capacity, so it cannot increase the amount of blood it must pump for proper circulation to a larger system.  Lower flow pressures result in higher probability of deposits just like any other fluid carrying pipe.  This is why people above a certain criteria are at a much higher risk of heart diseases and arterial deposits.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 29, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> Well... I can't speak for other fat people, but I got pretty big just through stress of my family alone....
> I was never allowed to eat out growing up... It was terrible though, instead of playing at recess I was running laps around the park to try and stop my body from gaining...
> I think after I had to have my appendix taken out, and then hurting a ligament in my ankle.... Plus being forced to live in the city.... Then my father telling me I was obese and ugly every day when I wasn't...
> This is what I looked like when my dad was telling me this btw,
> ...


You weren't fat. Your parents were just total assholes.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 29, 2018)

Troj said:


> It isn't healthy to be overweight--but, there are definitely fat people who are healthier than you expect, and there are thin people who are unhealthier than you'd expect, because "health" doesn't hinge on a single factor. I know people heavier than me who have better HDL and LDL levels, for example, likely due to a combination of genetics and lifestyle. (Being consistently sedentary is just as much a risk factor as being fat, incidentally.)
> 
> But, unless you're their doctor, health coach, life coach, personal trainer, designated "accountabili-buddy," or other informed and directly involved party, another adult's personal life choices and overall health are usually none of your damn business--and if you're going to lecture or insult people for being fat, it's only fair to treat _everyone_ who makes unhealthy life choices the exact same way, eh? (And really, if you hate SJWs, why would you want to become the health equivalent of an SJW?) If you find yourself fixating on fat people _exclusively_, the core issue may be with you, and not them.
> 
> ...


I will say again that being fat is unhealthy no matter what. There is no such thing as healthy at any weight. When your blood pressure is garbage and your blood sugar is off the charts and your organs are being smothered by pockets of fat, then it's unhealthy. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.


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## Yvvki (Jul 29, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> Oh... You know, stuff like that makes me really mad. Why would your parent, who's supposed to be loving and supportive, tell you those things about yourself? You appear to look just fine, honestly, in that picture there.
> 
> I hope you feel better these days about your self image, though!


Because my Dad is a narcissist, my mom overlooked his actions my entire life for whatever reason...  She changed herself so we get along much better but Dad just got worse... In fact before I moved out he hit me and pretty much blamed me for him not getting along with my mom...In fact just this month she left him and is trying to start over herself... And I have been moved out for just under a year now... It's taking a lot of work to try and feel like I matter... I don't have a lot of confidence to this day... Been in a rut these past couple of months to be honest, need to get a lot done still. It's really embarrassing just how few life skills I have, because I was pretty much given up on by my parents once I started gaining weight...

There is a lot more to this though, but that's the tip of the iceberg for you on my life thus far. 


Ovi the Dragon said:


> You weren't fat. Your parents were just total assholes.


Pretty much.


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## Yakamaru (Jul 29, 2018)

DarkoKavinsky said:


> Apparently that one guy lost over 200 pounds in twelve months. Should I start texting you “fat fuck” daily?


I was told jokes and insulted on a daily basis for my weight as a kid. I wasn't obese, but I was a tad bigger than other people. Words don't affect me, so it'd be kinda pointless on your part. 

Besides. I am already losing weight and have been losing weight at a steady pace. 

It doesn't always work with being an asshole the same way it doesn't always work to go "Sorry to say, but you might want to lose weight".


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## Massan Otter (Jul 29, 2018)

Simo said:


> I don't think fat shaming works.
> 
> It's a lot like fox shaming.
> 
> When I see a naughty fox, and say, "BAD, BAD, BAD, BAD Fox!", and even spank the fox, it always just makes the fox go out and be even more wily, mischevious and naughty. Doesn't work at all.



But it's a little different, as foxes actively enjoy the shame, to all outward appearances!  Revel in it, even...


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## Water Draco (Jul 29, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> Because my Dad is a narcissist, my mom overlooked his actions my entire life for whatever reason...  She changed herself so we get along much better but Dad just got worse... In fact before I moved out he hit me and pretty much blamed me for him not getting along with my mom...In fact just this month she left him and is trying to start over herself... And I have been moved out for just under a year now... It's taking a lot of work to try and feel like I matter... I don't have a lot of confidence to this day... Been in a rut these past couple of months to be honest, need to get a lot done still. It's really embarrassing just how few life skills I have, because I was pretty much given up on by my parents once I started gaining weight...
> 
> There is a lot more to this though, but that's the tip of the iceberg for you on my life thus far.
> 
> Pretty much.



From what has happened in the past the path ahead of you may seem obscured. You have already taken brave steps. You have stepped out in to the outside world which is daunting and you may think you lack the life skills, but then we all have to take that step which takes our breath away. In taking this step you have shown that you do have confidence in you. You are a unique and special individual.


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## Yvvki (Jul 29, 2018)

Water Draco said:


> From what has happened in the past the path ahead of you may seem obscured. You have already taken brave steps. You have stepped out in to the outside world which is daunting and you may think you lack the life skills, but then we all have to take that step which takes our breath away. In taking this step you have shown that you do have confidence in you. You are a unique and special individual.


;; Thank you so much for your kind words.


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## Muln (Jul 29, 2018)

Americans are so weird and stupid at times.

Majority of Americans I came across I asked: Do you eat seafood?

Almost all of them says no.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> There is no such thing as healthy at any weight.



Oh, I agree. That popular phrase makes me cringe, because it's _so_ obviously false that it's actually insulting. The 1,000 lb guy who had to have his wall bulldozed so he could leave the house for treatment did _not_ have a good quality of life, sorry.

Meanwhile, we also need to throw out BMI, because it's pseudo-scientific horseshit.

The body positivity movement can be overzealous at times, because they're reacting to people like Yvvki's dad. (Sorry, Yvvki--when your dad's a narcissist, though, his actions typically say more about him than about you.)


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> Your heart does not increase in capacity, so it cannot increase the amount of blood it must pump for proper circulation to a larger system.  Lower flow pressures result in higher probability of deposits just like any other fluid carrying pipe.  This is why people above a certain criteria are at a much higher risk of heart diseases and arterial deposits.



So you're right that overweight people are more likely to suffer from arterial deposits, but you're wrong about the mechanism (you actually have it completely backwards).

Overweight people often suffer from* high *blood pressure: Hypertension - Wikipedia

*High *blood pressure is one of several contributing factor to the formation of fatty arterial deposits, that develop by an unknown mechanism when the arterial walls become inflamed:
Atherosclerosis - Wikipedia



Can people please at least visit wikipedia before pretending to be doctors?


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2018)

I don't think anyone deserves to be needled about their weight, though I've also chewed my boyfriend out a few times for erring too much on the side of "I like you the way you are". The important thing is not to pass judgment on strangers over something as superficial as weight, when the realities of weight are far more complex.



Ovi the Dragon said:


> When your blood pressure is garbage and your blood sugar is off the charts and your organs are being smothered by pockets of fat, then it's unhealthy. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.


I'm pretty significantly overweight atm, mostly a result of depression + antidepressants. My max weight was almost double what I weighed before starting on antidepressants. My blood pressure is _better_ than it was before I gained this weight - back then I couldn't clean my cats' litterboxes without having fainting spells and needing to practically throw myself at the nearest wall so I could lean against it while my blood pressure stabilized. I've had stupid amounts of bloodwork done and the worst you can really say about it is my vitamin D was low before I started taking supplements for it, and some other non-obesity-linked values are a bit higher than ideal, probably due to meds.

Now, I'm not saying I'm _healthy_. I damn well know I live a much too sedentary lifestyle and am woefully out of shape. But the vitals you're taking for granted are the same in all obese people, aren't. Yes, there are aspects of being overweight that are detrimental to health. The point is more that you can't tell a person's health by how they weigh in alone. As @Troj sort of touches on, quality of life is actually probably at least as good an indicator. Especially since you don't know _why_ someone is overweight.

(As a sidenote, when I was at my pre-gain weight I kept getting bothered by family about how I supposedly needed to eat more, how I looked emaciated, and so on. This is me back then, my weight stable in the low to mid 60s (kgs, not lbs, obviously):
 

Honestly that was just as obnoxious and hurtful to deal with as my father and brother giving me shit about being chubby growing up. Like, obviously if someone is developing eating disorders you need to step in, but otherwise giving people shit about being thin is just as bad as giving them shit about being fat. It's their fucking body.)


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Can people please at least visit wikipedia before pretending to be doctors?



Herein lies my  major beef. Every Regular Joe suddenly transforms into Dr. Oz when he sees a fat person, even though the last health class he took was in high school. Armchair "experts" need to sit the fuck down.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

Troj said:


> Herein lies my  major beef. Every Regular Joe suddenly transforms into Dr. Oz when he sees a fat person, even though the last health class he took was in high school. Armchair "experts" need to sit the fuck down.



It makes me feel terrible when I see a mistake,_ that I know is a mistake_, because I am not a Doctor and I am terrified that I will make an error myself if I join the discussion.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2018)

Even if you are a doctor or other health professional, you're still not a psychic, so you can't know everything about a person based on one or a few fleeting snapshots of them. You might be able to draw inferences or make hypotheses, but that's it. 

Nobody bats an eye when I tear into a bacon cheeseburger, but fat people are regularly scrutinized for engaging in perfectly normal actions, because people automatically ascribe deeper significance to those actions.


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## aloveablebunny (Jul 29, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> People should be concerned about their weight, amongst many other things. Acquitting people of any personal responsibility is probably not actually that helpful. A gentle nudge toward self improvement is often a very good idea for some people, unless they're just natural a certain size.



I stand by my statement. It didn't mean "acquitting people of personal responsibility". It meant worry about your own self instead of feeling entitled to shame someone else about themselves.

If anyone thinks it's their business to tell me I need to change some aspect of my appearance because _they_ don't like it, I'm gonna give them a big fat middle finger in response. It doesn't matter who it is. This does not include a licensed physician making informed recommendations for my health; that's an entirely different subject in itself.

The choice to make those changes should be entirely on the person whose 'issue' it is to deal with. Unless someone specifically asks you for advice on their weight, it's not your place to tell them that you think they need to lose or gain any.


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## aloveablebunny (Jul 29, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> For me, it would be less a desire to change someone to improve their appearances and more about my overarching concerns about what it means for people in terms of quality of life, future of costs of healthcare that the public has to pick up due to people becoming very unhealthy weights, and people's ability to participate in the workforce. So many people being overweight is indeed a problem and it's not one we should skirt just because we are afraid of offending people.



Yet again, it's not in your hands to tell people that they should gain or lose weight. Or change their appearance in any way. People are capable of making their own choices (adults; when this subject pertains to children under the care of their parents or guardians, that again is a different story entirely). If someone wants to do fuck-all to gain or lose weight, let them be.

And this isn't supporting "fat acceptance" as the title of this thread states. It's more along the lines of "let people make their own choices and worry about your own self". For the third time.

Unless someone asks you to give your opinion or feedback on their appearance, mind your own business. And even if they DO ask you for your opinion or feedback on the matter, all you really need to do is cite factual information regarding health issues for being over or underweight and still leave it IN THEIR HANDS to make the choice to change.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 29, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I don't think anyone deserves to be needled about their weight, though I've also chewed my boyfriend out a few times for erring too much on the side of "I like you the way you are". The important thing is not to pass judgment on strangers over something as superficial as weight, when the realities of weight are far more complex.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty significantly overweight atm, mostly a result of depression + antidepressants. My max weight was almost double what I weighed before starting on antidepressants. My blood pressure is _better_ than it was before I gained this weight - back then I couldn't clean my cats' litterboxes without having fainting spells and needing to practically throw myself at the nearest wall so I could lean against it while my blood pressure stabilized. I've had stupid amounts of bloodwork done and the worst you can really say about it is my vitamin D was low before I started taking supplements for it, and some other non-obesity-linked values are a bit higher than ideal, probably due to meds.
> ...


Being fat is unhealthy. Period. I might believe your anecdote if it wasn't for the amount of people dying from health complications due to their weight all the time.


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## Yvvki (Jul 29, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> I'm very sorry to hear that. It sounds like you're doing the right thing though by trying to get your life back on track. That is all anyone can do, and when you're trying to improve - you've already won half the battle.


The main problem I have now is that my back feels sprained whenever I try to move. When I do dishes I start getting a cold sweat because it hurts so much....
I have been putting off seeing a doctor about it as well.... Never had a family doctor and in Canada, they don't tend to take people seriously... ( when my appendix was about to explode they thought I was in pain due to being constipated )

But yea, been trying to move forward in life.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jul 29, 2018)

Anyway, I used to be a very fit kid until I had a massive surgery when I was 9 and I spent 45 days in hospital, and I wasn't allowed to do any physical activities for at least 6 months, but there were complications so that was increased to a year of sedentary life. I gained a shitton of weight for that period, and I was bullied about it by classmates, teachers, family, etc. Back then it used to bother me because others made fun of me, but now it bothers me because it's deteriorating my health. 

It sucks. I do what I can to reduce my weight but it's a slow and painful process. Stay fit if you can, people. It's not worth letting yourself go.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2018)

aloveablebunny said:


> I stand by my statement. It didn't mean "acquitting people of personal responsibility". It meant worry about your own self instead of feeling entitled to shame someone else about themselves.
> 
> If anyone thinks it's their business to tell me I need to change some aspect of my appearance because _they_ don't like it, I'm gonna give them a big fat middle finger in response. It doesn't matter who it is. This does not include a licensed physician making informed recommendations for my health; that's an entirely different subject in itself.
> 
> The choice to make those changes should be entirely on the person whose 'issue' it is to deal with. Unless someone specifically asks you for advice on their weight, it's not your place to tell them that you think they need to lose or gain any.



Exactly so.

People who are so eager to give advice need to step back and interrogate their own motives. If you genuinely care about somebody, then you should seek to learn all you can about them--including their history, their strengths and weaknesses, and their current situation--so that you can give relevant, applicable advice. You should also ideally be able to empathize with their struggles and feelings to at least some degree.

If you just want to pontificate or lord over somebody, then don't be shocked if someone detects that in your manner or tone, and gives you a big fat middle finger.

If someone's weight gain is due to an illness, an injury, a medication, extended stress, and/or poverty, you're farting into the wind if you tell them they "just" need to take up CrossFit or buy fresh organic quinoa and kale salad from Whole Foods. You're worse than useless if your advice amounts to "don't be lazy," "exercise more," or "don't be gross, you gross fatty."


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> In an attempt to look intelligent, you pass by common sense.  Low *flow* creates a slower fluid environment, depositing solids along a canal.  This restricts the orifices, creating higher pressures.
> 
> If I have to explain basic mechanical concepts, at least ask why I say what I did, so that you avoid looking like an incoherant ass in the future.



Here's the simple version:

www.nhs.uk: Peripheral arterial disease (PAD)
This is a website issuing health advice. It's run by recognised medical experts.
They say high blood pressure makes the build up of fatty deposits more likely.
Being overweight causes higher blood pressure. www.nhs.uk: Causes
Your claim, that obesity causes lower blood pressure, resulting in fatty deposits, is therefore wrong.
Obesity causes *higher* blood pressure, resulting in fatty deposits. 


Here's the complicated version:


Spoiler



Arteries are not simple pipes. They're complex communities of living cells.
Fatty deposits form on the inside of arteries as a result of those communities of cells becoming inflamed.

Inflammation of arterial wall tissue, and the supply of fatty building materials for deposits, is worse in people with high blood pressure and lots of dissolved fat in their blood.

That's why people who are overweight tend to develop this problem.
Doctors try to treat the progress of this disease by finding ways to *reduce* the patient's blood pressure.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

Just in case anybody doesn't get the message.


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## -..Legacy..- (Jul 29, 2018)

Ok, let's drop this down to about a 6th grade reading level for you to comprehend.  Sure, higher blood pressure is an _symptom, I've not argued that.  _Obesity leads to such, but in your frantic keyword blitz, you are failing to show the systemic problem troubleshooting process of WHY that occurs, because its not the root cause.  You just latched onto one word, and ran around screaming nonsensical banter instead of actually discussing things like an adult.    To start, you're going to need to understand some very basic high school concepts.  Flow does not equal pressure, and either does volume.  On we go:

Obesity > Larger cardiovascular system with higher flow requirements, over a standard "normal" system capacity of the same person not defined as obese.

We are going to slow this down step by step just for you.  A pump incapable of increasing in size must make up volume with increased repetitions.  This is because the restrictions in obese cardiovascular systems increases, thus higher requirements to complete the same task of requiring adequate oxygen and blood flow to organs....

Since the LOWER PRESSURES CANT GET THE DAMN JOB DONE, YOU SILLY PERSON.  The low pressures are the root cause above obesity, HBP is the end result of the body's failsafe solution.  Since obesity isn't an overnight thing, the body has no problem maintaining a full system of blood as weight increases, minus fringe complications, so that's a moot point in this discussion.

So here is what we have:

Obesity > Low system pressure > body reacts with higher performance > HBP

Now, back to basic hydraulic aspects to reinforce that, as we just can't ignore the laws of physics, can we?  The heart is a pump, fairly incapable of changing capacity.  Each pump only moves a specified volume of liquid into the system.  Since the area its disperses to as an output is larger than its intended system capacity through obesity, the pressures are lower until it compensates by increasing pressures to reach more difficult areas.  So, HBP is not the root cause, because HBP itself is a byproduct of another systemic failure the body is compensating for.  This pressure only gets higher as the deposits form, further increasing the dynamic load on the pump.

_Also, why on earth did you try using a source that actually claims there is no explanation for the deposits right at the top?  Are you even trying to comprehend the position you hold yet?
_
So, we have a clear systemic path that shows the individual events that occur to reach the end result.  Sure, you were able to pick a big buzzword (pressure) and try to run with it, but as I warned you before, it was only going to show how little of the subject you really knew.  If you would like me to further discuss the effects of how sodium, adrenaline, and cholesterol complicate the end process to our complications of clogged arteries and further HBP issues more difficult to treat, I'll be more than welcome to at another time.  And for reference:  I do have limited medical training through my tenure in the Army as a Certified Combat Livesaver Course, which requires fundamental medical knowledge and application to treat my brethren until a proper medic arrives.  Being incapable of understanding the systemic nature of the human body would be bad in events, of where you are trying to keep people alive for a few minutes longer. I have also worked as a veterinary assistant for a little over a year, and my sister in an RN.  Needless to say, I am not separated from medical knowledge very often.

A word of advice though, next time, don't try to stand on a platform that admonishes lack of information or knowledge on a subject, when its clear you are the lesser of that information source incapable of using your own facts to support your claims.  All you did was show basic pathways, and have no actual understanding of why it occurs in the first place. 

For fun:  real doctors n shit

Why would it need more pressure?  BECAUSE ITS LOW


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## Infrarednexus (Jul 29, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> Ok, let's drop this down to about a 6th grade reading level for you to comprehend.  Sure, higher blood pressure is an _symptom, I've not argued that.  _Obesity leads to such, but in your frantic keyword blitz, you are failing to show the systemic problem troubleshooting process of WHY that occurs, because its not the root cause.  You just latched onto one word, and ran around screaming nonsensical banter instead of actually discussing things like an adult.    To start, you're going to need to understand some very basic high school concepts.  Flow does not equal pressure, and either does volume.  On we go:
> 
> Obesity > Larger cardiovascular system with higher flow requirements, over a standard "normal" system capacity of the same person not defined as obese.
> 
> ...


This is why you don't start shit with Legacy.


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## Yakamaru (Jul 29, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> Ok, let's drop this down to about a 6th grade reading level for you to comprehend.  Sure, higher blood pressure is an _symptom, I've not argued that.  _Obesity leads to such, but in your frantic keyword blitz, you are failing to show the systemic problem troubleshooting process of WHY that occurs, because its not the root cause.  You just latched onto one word, and ran around screaming nonsensical banter instead of actually discussing things like an adult.    To start, you're going to need to understand some very basic high school concepts.  Flow does not equal pressure, and either does volume.  On we go:
> 
> Obesity > Larger cardiovascular system with higher flow requirements, over a standard "normal" system capacity of the same person not defined as obese.
> 
> ...


----------



## aloveablebunny (Jul 29, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> Ok, let's drop this down to about a 6th grade reading level for you to comprehend.  Sure, higher blood pressure is an _symptom, I've not argued that.  _Obesity leads to such, but in your frantic keyword blitz, you are failing to show the systemic problem troubleshooting process of WHY that occurs, because its not the root cause.  You just latched onto one word, and ran around screaming nonsensical banter instead of actually discussing things like an adult.    To start, you're going to need to understand some very basic high school concepts.  Flow does not equal pressure, and either does volume.  On we go:
> 
> Obesity > Larger cardiovascular system with higher flow requirements, over a standard "normal" system capacity of the same person not defined as obese.
> 
> ...



_slow golf clap_


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

-..Legacy..- said:


> Ok, let's drop this down to about a 6th grade reading level for you to comprehend.  Sure, higher blood pressure is an _symptom, I've not argued that.  _Obesity leads to such, but in your frantic keyword blitz, you are failing to show the systemic problem troubleshooting process of WHY that occurs, because its not the root cause.  You just latched onto one word, and ran around screaming nonsensical banter instead of actually discussing things like an adult.    To start, you're going to need to understand some very basic high school concepts.  Flow does not equal pressure, and either does volume.  On we go:
> 
> Obesity > Larger cardiovascular system with higher flow requirements, over a standard "normal" system capacity of the same person not defined as obese.
> 
> ...




The comment you made a the start implied that you thought obese people had lower blood pressure and that this allowed deposits to drop out of solution.

Yakamaru told me he thought this after speaking to you, so I'm not the only person who got the impression you thought this.




-..Legacy..- said:


> In an attempt to look intelligent, you pass by common sense.  Low *flow* creates a slower fluid environment, depositing solids along a canal.  This restricts the orifices, creating higher pressures.
> 
> If I have to explain basic mechanical concepts, at least ask why I say what I did, so that you avoid looking like an incoherant ass in the future.



In  this post you claimed low flow allowed solids to form along the arteries like they're a canal.


Medical organisations state that the mechanism for the solid formations' growth isn't known, and that it's associated with high flow pressure.

Can you see why I thought your post was wrong?



Infrarednexus said:


> This is why you don't start shit with Legacy.



To avoid 700 word rage posts? Sure.

I'm still kind of suspicious that Legacy just made a mistake and is too angry to admit it; his post is very emotional, filled with capslock rage and insults.

Real doctors don't know the _exact_ mechanism by which fatty deposits are made, although they _do_ know it's an inflammatory one, rather than a simple mechanical one.

That's why I am reticent to believe that Legacy, who admits he isn't a doctor, knows something that has eluded answer by medical research.


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## Infrarednexus (Jul 29, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> To avoid 700 word rage posts? Sure.
> 
> I'm still kind of suspicious that Legacy just made a mistake and is too angry to admit it; his post is very emotional, filled with capslock rage and insults.
> 
> ...


Legacy is one of the more level headed and well tempered people I know compared to the others here. He doesn't make rage posts, and calling this one seems like an attempt to discredit the argument and shift the goal posts. Look past his "insults" and counter his points with a reasonable response using you're own facts and data if you have them. He doesn't visit this place often as much as he used to, as he is a very busy person as of recently, so you might not get another opportunity to debate with him like you can with the rest of us.

I personally think he bested you on this argument, despite your dissatisfaction with how he composed it.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Legacy is one of the more level headed and well tempered people I know compared to the others here. He doesn't make rage posts, and calling this one seems like an attempt to discredit the argument and shift the goal posts. Look past his "insults" and counter his points with a reasonable response using you're own facts and data if you have them. He doesn't visit this place often as much as he used to, as he is a very busy person as of recently, so you might not get another opportunity to debate with him like you can with the rest of us.



This is my fact.
Legacy claimed that lowering the pressure (that's force per unite area in the blood vessel) causes higher probability of deposit formation.
Here's the quote to prove he said it:


-..Legacy..- said:


> Your heart does not increase in capacity, so it cannot increase the amount of blood it must pump for proper circulation to a larger system.  *Lower flow pressures* result in higher probability of deposits just like any other fluid carrying pipe.  This is why people above a certain criteria are at a much higher risk of heart diseases and arterial deposits.



I'm sure it won't be controversial to say that Legacy's post implies that, as a person grows fatter, that their circulatory system grows larger.
Since the area of the vessels grows, he reasons that this means the pressure falls.
I think his post implied that this lower pressure meant that deposits are more likely to stick to the sides of the vessels, because the pressure won't be great enough to move them on.
Intuitively that idea makes sense, right? I think the fact that it's intuitive is the reason he suggested it, and that's fair enough.
It happens to be a wrong idea though, because the mechanics of deposit formation result from a biochemical response to irritated blood vessel walls that is not yet fully understood.
Everybody can agree?
The mere fact legacy said that Arterial deposits form 'like in any other pipe' should be enough to show that he's wrong, because the actual mechanism involves biological responses that are not present in any other type of 'pipes'.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> To be fair, all of his posts thus far have been laden with a large amount of insults and ad hominem attacks. I'm unable to determine who's right in this discussion, but I'm not really seeing "level headed."


Well, thanks for recognising this.
If I am wrong about this, I_ am _genuinely interested in finding out why.

Legacy's responses made me feel like he was shouting 'How dare you question me?' though.
If I was wrong I'm unconvinced that he actually wants to help me understand, rather than 'destroy me'.

I've noticed that his later explanations of his position contradicted his earlier ones. In his opening post he describes a quantity of 'flow pressure', but in his most recent post he insists that I failed to understand him because I was too stupid to realise that flow and pressure are different and should _never be confused_. (in reality fluid flow is directly proportional to fluid pressure, so we can talk about them synonymous)
He also changed his position from 'low flow pressure causes deposits to form, as in any pipe',


-..Legacy..- said:


> Lower flow pressures result in higher probability of deposits just like any other fluid carrying pipe.


to 'low pressure allows deposits to form, and these then cause high blood pressure'


-..Legacy..- said:


> Low *flow* creates a slower fluid environment, depositing solids along a canal.  This restricts the orifices, creating higher pressures.


to the most recent iteration, which was
'low pressure makes the body compensate by developing high blood pressure, in order to supply all of the organs with oxygen, and the high pressure allows deposits to form'.


-..Legacy..- said:


> Obesity > Low system pressure > body reacts with higher performance > HBP



These revisions contradict each other, and they contradict any notion of blood vessels being 'like any other type of pipe', because the response that legacy claims causes the higher pressure comes from a living body.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Jul 29, 2018)

So I know I'm late, and we're praising Legacy now, but


Troj said:


> Herein lies my  major beef. Every Regular Joe suddenly transforms into Dr. Oz when he sees a fat person, even though the last health class he took was in high school. Armchair "experts" need to sit the fuck down.


Holy shit. I wish I could enjoy this phenomena of Troj getting angry, but in hindsight it's just inevitable that this means there's something severe to be upset about.
Still
 It had to be done.
Keep up the good fight, M'Lord


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2018)

Troj getting irritated, at least--and not _just_ with folks here by any means. Friends of mine have been consistently affected by armchair experts and Dunning-Krugerites giving them hurtful and unwelcome advice, after all. (It's something people with chronic illnesses and disabilities experience quite a lot, actually.)


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Being fat is unhealthy. Period. I might believe your anecdote if it wasn't for the amount of people dying from health complications due to their weight all the time.


So... I don't have low-to-mid-end-of-normal blood pressure at approximately 150% of my current goal weight because it doesn't follow your one-dimensional perception of weight-to-health correlation? I guess there are poltergeists creeping around every blood pressure cuff that's been used on me in the last few years, then. 

Being too far from ideal weight in either direction has a detrimental effect on a person's health. I've already acknowledged this. But as @Troj mentioned earlier in the thread, fat and active is healthier than thin and sedentary. There's research on this. Health is a sum of a fuckton of factors, of which weight is one. The point is assuming things about someone's health based on outward appearance (which is basically what weight comes down to) is likely to be incorrect. You don't know how that person got there.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 29, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> So I know I'm late, and we're praising Legacy now, but
> 
> Holy shit. I wish I could enjoy this phenomena of Troj getting angry, but in hindsight it's just inevitable that this means there's something severe to be upset about.
> Still
> ...



Basically I feel like all Legacy had to do to convince several people that his personal spit ball theory about blood vessel deposits was right was make a show about how rude he was to people that disagree with him. 

If you look up what doctors say about blood vessel plaques, it's clear that it's still an unresolved question in the scientific literature exactly how the plaques form. So it's not even feasible that Legacy's can confidently tell anybody the answer.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Jul 29, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Being fat is unhealthy. Period. I might believe your anecdote if it wasn't for the amount of people dying from health complications due to their weight all the time.


Also want to add that it seems kind of disrespectful to respond to multiple paragraphs based on personal experience with "You're wrong. Period." and half a line explaining why.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 30, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Also want to add that it seems kind of disrespectful to respond to multiple paragraphs based on personal experience with "You're wrong. Period." and half a line explaining why.



Especially since Mungo was very careful to make it clear that she wasn't disputing the negative health effects of excess weight anyway.


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## Fiorabeast (Jul 30, 2018)

Japan is SLOWLY getting to accepting people who are fat, but there is still that gross level of fat-shaming and making fun of people who are overweight (though really, the US is still the same in that mindset, isn't it? I still see fat-shaming comments also coming from Americans, since this is just not really a Japan-only problem). What's ironic is we use to have fat guys (only, no women which is sexist not surprisingly) as superheroes but nowadays we don't.
I think the worst is really towards fat ladies because a LOT of people want that ideal 'skinny girl' like I am which is annoying as hell since we have Watanabe Naomi who is not only an entertainer, but a fashion business woman and world traveler and she's living it alive while big. I hope there are more strong, fat Japanese women like her in the future because really, the fat shaming here has to stop.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> To be fair, all of his posts thus far have been laden with a large amount of insults and ad hominem attacks. I'm unable to determine who's right in this discussion, but I'm not really seeing "level headed."



Having a sense of humor hurts my feelings too.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jul 30, 2018)

Gonna poke my head into this blood pressure debate.

I think Fallow and Legacy both are right and both wrong on some points.

First off, as Fallow pointed out atherosclerosis is caused by an inflammatory response. This is due to damage to the arterial wall. The arterial wall gets a tear and things begin to get caught in the rough edges (fats, wastes, etc.)  Cholesterol that is caught up in the arterial cell wall react to chemicals present in the damaged area and begin to oxidize. This causes an inflammatory response. This is where surrounding cells send out a distress signal which causes monocytes (a type of white blood cell) to come along, convert into macrophages (big eaters of the immune system) that then begin eating the junk that built up in the damaged area. As they consume the large amounts of LDL cholesterol they start to convert into foam cells. As more and more macrophages do this they accumulate together and clump up. This is what makes up the plaque buildup leading to higher blood pressure and other circulatory complications.

Here's where it gets tricky. The damage to the arterial wall can be caused by many things. The problem with both of your arguments is that you're trying to attribute it to a single cause. Medicine isn't really a one size fits all science :þ

Legacy is correct in that the buildup CAN be caused by low blood pressure. But not quite in the manner he thinks if I'm reading his post right. He is implying (at least as far as I got from reading his posts) that because the blood flow is slower the deposits are more likely to stick to the wall. This is right and wrong.

What happens when you have low blood pressure is your body notices that its not getting the oxygen it needs. It goes "Oh shit!" and sends a signal to the heart to start beating faster to compensate. This speeds up the flow, increasing blood pressure, which can then result in the cell wall getting damaged. Fat and other things build up and you know the rest.

Low blood pressure -> heart compensating -> temporary spurts of higher pressure -> damage -> build up.

This is why you can have skinny people who have heart and circulatory issues.

Fallow is correct in that simply having high blood all the time CAN lead to it too. However, it is not always caused by fat. Stress, kidney disease, too much salt, too much alcohol,  genetic predisposition, and so on can all cause damage.

Hell, smoking can do it too. The issue is that it is caused by injury to the cell wall creating a jagged edge where shit can build up in what is normally a very smooth surface.

Also unrelated but kinda not. Legacy mentioned that the heart cannot increase in size as a pump so it has to beat more to compensate. This is true, but it discounts the fact that the heart is also a muscle. When the heart beats faster to compensate it is working out the muscle, and like all muscles that are worked out it grows. Over time the cardiac wall of the left and right ventricle grow bigger resulting in stronger, more forceful beats. This is why people that do lots of cardio tend to have larger hearts. This isn't really a good thing though long term because the muscle loses elasticity from overworking and eventually fails.


TLDR:






You're both kind of right. You're both kind of wrong. And you're both kind of being condescending twats to one another, so be nice people <:


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## Crimcyan (Jul 30, 2018)

Having people be nice to each other on this forum is a pipe dream, nothing will ever change here.


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## Crimcyan (Jul 30, 2018)

RabidCoon said:


> It changes when we change first ourselves, and then ask and encourage others to be nice as well.


It would be miracle if you can get people to change themselves on this forum, people can't even look past political or religious differences here.


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## KyryK (Jul 30, 2018)

It is generally less than ideal to be a lard lad.

There, just said something everyone can agree on without having to write a godforsaken text wall.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 30, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> So... I don't have low-to-mid-end-of-normal blood pressure at approximately 150% of my current goal weight because it doesn't follow your one-dimensional perception of weight-to-health correlation? I guess there are poltergeists creeping around every blood pressure cuff that's been used on me in the last few years, then.
> 
> Being too far from ideal weight in either direction has a detrimental effect on a person's health. I've already acknowledged this. But as @Troj mentioned earlier in the thread, fat and active is healthier than thin and sedentary. There's research on this. Health is a sum of a fuckton of factors, of which weight is one. The point is assuming things about someone's health based on outward appearance (which is basically what weight comes down to) is likely to be incorrect. You don't know how that person got there.


How that person got there doesn't matter. It is unhealthy. Having a sob story doesn't change the fact that having your organs smothered by fat is unhealthy. The statistics don't lie. Being fat is unhealthy.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jul 30, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Also want to add that it seems kind of disrespectful to respond to multiple paragraphs based on personal experience with "You're wrong. Period." and half a line explaining why.


Do I need to pull up the multiple statistics of how many people die from health complications each year from it?



Fallowfox said:


> Especially since Mungo was very careful to make it clear that she wasn't disputing the negative health effects of excess weight anyway.


I beg to differ. She tried to make it seem like fat wasn't as bad as it actually is.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Basically I feel like all Legacy had to do to convince several people that his personal spit ball theory about blood vessel deposits was right was make a show about how rude he was to people that disagree with him.
> 
> If you look up what doctors say about blood vessel plaques, it's clear that it's still an unresolved question in the scientific literature exactly how the plaques form. So it's not even feasible that Legacy's can confidently tell anybody the answer.



Your first response to Legacy involved a chiding comment along the lines of "Can people please at least visit wikipedia before pretending to be doctors?"
I don't feel as if you can claim the moral high ground here. You mockingly dismissed what he said, presumptuously assuming he didn't have the credentials to speak on the subject, when he did. Enough that I wouldn't outright dismiss him as another haughty forum kid, really.

You came in swinging and came out with a bloody nose, let's not try to play the blame game here.


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## modfox (Jul 30, 2018)

im a skinny cunt irl that mean I will get along fine in japan? also I look Scandinavian af so all the animé characters will chase after me


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## Yakamaru (Jul 30, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> The comment you made a the start implied that you thought obese people had lower blood pressure and that this allowed deposits to drop out of solution.
> 
> Yakamaru told me he thought this after speaking to you, so I'm not the only person who got the impression you thought this.
> 
> ...


I'll break it down for you into two words: Basic hydraulics.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 30, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I'll break it down for you into two words: Basic hydraulics.



This is why Legacy was wrong actually.

The process that leads to fatty deposit formation in arteries *isn't* a result of the hydraulics. It's a result of a biochemical response to vessel wall inflammation.



KimberVaile said:


> Your first response to Legacy involved a chiding comment along the lines of "Can people please at least visit wikipedia before pretending to be doctors?"
> I don't feel as if you can claim the moral high ground here. You mockingly dismissed what he said, presumptuously assuming he didn't have the credentials to speak on the subject, when he did. Enough that I wouldn't outright dismiss him as another haughty forum kid, really.
> 
> You came in swinging and came out with a bloody nose, let's not try to play the blame game here.



Whether or not he has the 'credentials' his claim is wrong.
and it is true that he would have realised his claim was wrong if he had checked wikipedia.



GarthTheWereWolf said:


> Gonna poke my head into this blood pressure debate.
> 
> I think Fallow and Legacy both are right and both wrong on some points.
> 
> ...



I think you've mischaracterised my posts. 
For example, at no point do I claim that obesity is the only mechanism that can lead to increased systemic blood pressure. 

I provided links to medical sources which made it clear that several different factors. I posted an image from a medical source which specifically singled out the factors you suggest I neglected, such as smoking. 


You're correct to point out though that obesity does change the heart's size. Hence, along with his other mistakes, Legacy was also wrong that the heart 'can't change in capacity'. 
and I didn't spot that mistake, so thankyou for highlighting it.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 30, 2018)

So I'm in the house with a Doctor at the moment, and if people really want I can pester and show her Legacy's posts to get her medical opinion. 



Ovi the Dragon said:


> Do I need to pull up the multiple statistics of how many people die from health complications each year from it?
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. She tried to make it seem like fat wasn't as bad as it actually is.




No she didn't. ._. She just explained that there were caveats, which isn't very surprising, is it?


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jul 30, 2018)

TBH Fallow the biggest takeaway I would have liked you to get from my post is that it doesn’t matter if you’re “right” if you can’t be civil. Your posts came off as extremely condescending. Don’t talk down to your opponent as if they’re a child. It just pisses people off, its a bad faith debate tactic, and makes it far less likely for people to actually want to listen to your opinion and absorb it whether it’s right or not since it shows a lack of respect for the person you’re talking to.

Ask yourself: “Do I want to share information so others can learn and have new meaningful ideas from talking to me? Or do I just want to win so I can stroke my own intellectual ego and signal how ‘smart’ I am to the rest of the class?”


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## Fallowfox (Jul 30, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> TBH Fallow the biggest takeaway I would have liked you to get from my post is that it doesn’t matter if you’re “right” if you can’t be civil. Your posts came off as extremely condescending. Don’t talk down to your opponent as if they’re a child. It just pisses people off, its a bad faith debate tactic, and makes it far less likely for people to actually want to listen to your opinion and absorb it whether it’s right or not since it shows a lack of respect for the person you’re talking to.
> 
> Ask yourself: “Do I want to share information so others can learn and have new meaningful ideas from talking to me? Or do I just want to win so I can stroke my own intellectual ego and signal how ‘smart’ I am to the rest of the class?”



I'm sorry if you view my posts as condescending, and I'll try to do what I can to make sure they're not. I've avoided calling people I disagree with 'sixth graders', for example.
and I've bit my tongue when other users have responded to me by calling me an 'incoherent ass' and a 'twat'.

When there are aspects of the way I talk that prickle people's feelings I'm happy to be told what they are so that I can change them.

I do want to share this piece of information though, because it happens that it's right.
I don't think I'm smart for knowing this, after all I'm not the researcher who figured this out. I think the doctors who figured it out deserve to be lauded as smart, not me.

I do ask that, if you don't like condescending language, that maybe you could avoid calling me a twat? I mean, you don't _have _to stop, but it would be nice if you could.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Jul 30, 2018)

Perhaps instead of this, we should consider ways to approach people (perhaps people you *know*) who are at a unhealthy weight and help, whether it be medical or lifestyle, instead of greeting them with a punch. Being tough about an issue doesn't have to involve insults.


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## Yakamaru (Jul 30, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Yakamaru told me he thought this after speaking to you, so I'm not the only person who got the impression you thought this.


Did I now? I did not state I talked to Legacy prior to him posting his reply, unless you want to provide evidence of such a claim?


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## Fallowfox (Jul 30, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Did I now? I did not state I talked to Legacy prior to him posting his reply, unless you want to provide evidence of such a claim?


Ah, that's a typo; I meant 'speaking to me'.





I asked you whether you agreed with legacy, and whether 'doctors were wrong'.

Legacy probably never even sought to convince people doctors were wrong. :S


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## Yakamaru (Jul 30, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Ah, that's a typo; I meant 'speaking to me'.
> 
> View attachment 36595
> 
> ...


I agreed with his statement after reading it. 

And I repeat myself like I did earlier: "You are still missing what Legacy is talking about. What that is, is for you to find out.  "

Seems you're still oblivious as to what I meant by that statement.


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## Water Draco (Jul 30, 2018)

Any extreme is not good for heath. 

Extreme approaches can equally also be bad for health.

Shaming has another name... Bullying


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 30, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> How that person got there doesn't matter. It is unhealthy. Having a sob story doesn't change the fact that having your organs smothered by fat is unhealthy. The statistics don't lie. Being fat is unhealthy.


There's a reason the saying goes "lies, damned lies, and statistics." It's not because statistics will unerringly lead you to the root of all problems. Again, no one is denying that excess weight is likely to impact your body negatively.

How the person got there is absolutely relevant. If the weight is the side effect of a life-saving drug, then it's obviously healthier for the person to be fat than to not be on the drug. Yes, they'd maybe be even healthier if they were on the drug _and_ thin, but if that's not feasible in their situation for whatever reason, judging them for it is shitty. Body type will also impact how easily a person puts on weight and how much that excess weight shows.



Ovi the Dragon said:


> Do I need to pull up the multiple statistics of how many people die from health complications each year from it?


You're welcome to pull up the data you based the implication that all obese people have high blood pressure and blood sugar on. :V



Ovi the Dragon said:


> I beg to differ. She tried to make it seem like fat wasn't as bad as it actually is.


No, she didn't. She informed you that being overweight does not, in fact, have to come with all of the (specific) adverse health effects you listed. Beyond that, all I've been saying is that weight is a _health factor_, not a sole indicator of what kind of health a person is in.


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## Filter (Jul 31, 2018)

I'm actually kind of surprised to hear that there's much fat shaming in Japan, the country of sumo wrestling.

There's lots of fat shaming in the US. Just because our obesity rates are higher doesn't mean overweight Americans aren't bullied or otherwise ridiculed or disapproved of for their size. Perhaps our obesity rates are even exacerbated by the shame. Driving overweight people to sedentary lifestyles, in which they avoid others and eat more excessively to cope with the shaming that they're subjected to. Or maybe something else is going on, but I wouldn't say we have a culture of fat acceptance.


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## Cawdabra (Jul 31, 2018)

Troj said:


> Every Regular Joe suddenly transforms into Dr. Oz when he sees a fat person


So, a quack who pushes alternative medicine to get money? :V


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jul 31, 2018)

Filter said:


> I'm actually kind of surprised to hear that there's much fat shaming in Japan, the country of sumo wrestling.
> 
> There's lots of fat shaming in the US. Just because our obesity rates are higher doesn't mean overweight Americans aren't bullied or otherwise ridiculed or disapproved of for their size. Perhaps our obesity rates are even exacerbated by the shame. Driving overweight people to sedentary lifestyles, in which they avoid others and eat more excessively to cope with the shaming that they're subjected to. Or maybe something else is going on, but I wouldn't say we have a culture of fat acceptance.


I think I should note that Japan is a nation of politeness. They will fat shame you using polite indirect subtle comments such as "Oh you like food recently?" Or "don't you enjoy doing exercise?" 

It's something foreigners won't understand but japanese can get the hint

Here is a story of how indirect japanese can be

https://soranews24.com/2018/04/16/e...anger-in-kyoto-compliment-foreigner-received/


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Jul 31, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> https://soranews24.com/2018/04/16/e...anger-in-kyoto-compliment-foreigner-received/


This is probably racist, but I love this guys name :u
Oussouby Sacko


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## Troj (Jul 31, 2018)

Cawdabra said:


> So, a quack who pushes alternative medicine to get money? :V



Yes


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## Flumpor (Jul 31, 2018)

As someone who is still losing a lot of weight right now I can say that I urge for any motivator, positive or negative. It helps me achieve my goals and I think you should be more direct to obese and fat people.
In our western society you can so easily get complacent since we can express ourselves in a million ways, where as in Japan they are more about the whole then individualism. And sure there are pros and cons to each approach, but I think that showing concern for someones weight and approaching them about it is actually a good thing and obesity shouldn't be celebrated.


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## HuskyLover101 (Aug 5, 2018)

The real problem lies with all the crap food we have and modern amenities like TV, video games, computers, phones, etc. I mean, back in the 40's and earlier, for example, you didn't have McDonald's and Taco Bell on every third corner, nor did you have electronic gadgets to get lazy on. People in those days ate healthier, got better exercise, and didn't sit around. 
But fat acceptance is not okay, there is nothing acceptable about it in my opinion. The healthcare system is being throttled more than ever because of all these new diseases, cancers, and whatnot that are brought on by unhealthy lifestyles. I shouldn't have to pay almost $500 a month for health insurance, it's absurd. This country is literally eating itself to death and something needs to be done! I'm not a saint either, I eat more fast food than I probably should but I also exercise and do my part to stay at a normal weight. There's really no excuse to be overweight, people need to get off their ass, eat healthier and MOVE! You'll never change if you don't get out and make your body work, our bodies aren't designed to do nothing. Things like diabetes, thyroid problems, pancreas and appendix issues, all can be avoided by staying in shape. Most of those things used to be unheard of, and yet they cost the healthcare system BILLIONS every single year. We could be putting that money to use elsewhere like curing cancer, stopping hunger, or world peace. I mean, half of the world is starving and in poverty, and here we are in America as fat as a fucking cow, what's wrong with this picture? Not to mention how wasteful this country is with how much food is thrown out for no reason because people are lazy pigs and don't give a shit.
Isn't it actually illegal to be overweight in Japan? I don't know if that's a rumor or not but it's not a bad idea. Some people will cry that that's taking away their rights, but they don't have a right to make healthcare so inaccessible to the rest of us, either by choosing to live such a piss poor lifestyle! 

Sorry if I sound brash, I just really don't like overweight people. Even my own family members, 9 out of 10 overweight people I've dealt with act like the world owes them a favor. Especially in the workplace, they're lazy, and brush off the hard work on non fat people and are generally obnoxious. It really grinds my gears when I see some crippled old person struggling to get around the store on foot only to find some lazy fat fuck cruising around in one of those electric carts, basket full to the brim of junk food and soda, pisses me right the fuck off. Or they get handicap permits because they're too lazy to walk across a parking lot. Fuck every single one of those people, and I have no sympathy if they drop dead from a heart attack. Taking things away from people that actually need it is unacceptable! Just like abusing the welfare system which a lot of them do because they're too lazy to work. If you can afford a smartphone, a flatscreen television, gaming console, and a car you don't need welfare! Welfare should be reserved for struggling families/single parents only who can't afford to feed their children (healthy food, not McDonald's and other trash food) because no child should ever know hunger. A parent should go hungry if it means their child doesn't have to be.

Eh, I'll get off my soapbox now. Feel free to haze me, I really don't care. My opinion is never going to change, trust me!


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## Ludwig Linkermann (Aug 5, 2018)

@Mikazuki Marazhu


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## Simo (Aug 5, 2018)

@Mikazuki Marazhu : Not to be too direct, but I think many of us are wondering the same thing: 

It seems glaringly ironic that you've also discussed an attraction to chubby/overweight he-men, dressed like schoolgirls. This is not to kink-shame....but to make a thread about how horrible certain body-types are, and carry on about how wonderful fat-shaming is while also broadcasting a fascination with overweight people, does seem to border a bit on the absurd.

I have to question whether the motivation of your thread is really a discomfort with 'fat acceptance' on some broad, social level, or something more personal and deeply rooted in your self, your own body, mind and proclivities, _projected_ into what might appear to be a rational debate.


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## Ludwig Linkermann (Aug 5, 2018)

Simo said:


> @Mikazuki Marazhu : Not to be too direct, but it seems glaringly ironic that you've also discussed an attraction to chubby/overweight he-men, dressed like schoolgirls. This is not to kink-shame....but to make a thread about how horrible certain body-types are, and *rant about* how wonderful fat-shaming is while also broadcasting a fascination with overweight people, does seem to border a bit on the absurd.
> 
> I have to question weather the motivation of your thread is really a discomfort with 'fat acceptance' on some broad, social level, or something more deeply rooted in your self, your own body, mind and proclivities, _projected_ into what might appear to be a rational debate.


Well now. There was no need to make it personal.

He did not rant in any of the two posts he's made. All he did was voice his disapproval about how it's common for outsiders to bitch about fat shaming in Japan, defined what is considered overweight there, and listed the consequences of being overweight. Let me quote his posts to you:


Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I've been around some foreigners from the US who complains about how Japan is so rampant on fat shaming and they want Japan want to be enlightened by the body positivity movement.
> 
> That personally irks me, I personally believe that people should maintain a weight that's enough to prevent health complications like stroke or heart attacks but shaming from the japanese media and society is also a little excessive.
> 
> I find myself thinking whether fat shaming is a good thing. If it keeps everyone healthy, why change it right?





Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Question: Is severe obesity considered an disability there?
> 
> Here in Japan if you (age over 45) exceed certain BMI/Waistline (85 cm for men and 90 cm for women) you get arrested or fined
> though getting arrested always never happen but you can get fined for it
> ...


As can be seen, there's no ranting, just stating facts and some opinion mixed with his concern for obesity.

What gives you the right to attack his personal preferences? You're not making an argument here, you are just outright being hostile towards him for his different opinion.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Aug 5, 2018)

Fluffer said:


> I dont see anything wrong with either of them, just different cultures. But what I hate is stupid westerners thinking their mcdonald culture is superior to all others and everyone should act as american and speak american. fuck you usa. Russia will nuke you one day.



I feel there's an underlying motivation behind this aggression that has something to do with you being banned, but I might just be speculating too much.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Aug 5, 2018)

Fluffer said:


> You know it really hurt to get banned this place was like home I never had, like family I never had. I learned my lesson. I mean nothing and I never be liked. I just want the world burn.





Fluffer said:


> You could say hey just be normal, act respectfully and people will like you and you will make friends. That's a fair point, but oddly enough I dont want too. I want to be hated for some reason. I could be a narcissist. My sparklewolf fursona really fit me haha



I think your attachment to this place is hurting you more than the hate that you want out of it. I've seen this in other people on here, too. Getting caught in these loops can damage your personality.

I was in a forum before I joined this place and I was very addicted to it, but also very cynical and despised a lot of people there. My enjoyment of that forum swiftly became an enjoyment of being rude and hateful, which started affecting the way I viewed my other hobbies and prompted me to quit that forum forever. It was when I joined here that I realized how positive forums could be.


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## Ludwig Linkermann (Aug 5, 2018)

Fluffer said:


> Forums are are waste of time imo, I have better things to do.


Yet you're still here.


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## ScrewLoose (Aug 5, 2018)




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## Troj (Aug 5, 2018)

Given Japan's penchant for fostering _hikikomori _and fetishizing little girls to the point where you used to be able to buy their used panties out of venting machines, I'm not sure we should be taking tips from them about how to foster mental and physical health in one's populace. 

(Not like America's much better on that front, though.)


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Aug 5, 2018)

@Mikazuki Marazhu


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## quoting_mungo (Aug 5, 2018)

HuskyLover101 said:


> Things like diabetes, thyroid problems, pancreas and appendix issues, all can be avoided by staying in shape.


Type I diabetes has nothing to do with weight.
Ever heard of goiter? That's one type of thyroid problem (hyperthyroidism IIRC), and it's more to do with iodine deficiency than excess weight. 
Appendicitis isn't primarily a weight issue, either.



HuskyLover101 said:


> It really grinds my gears when I see some crippled old person struggling to get around the store on foot only to find some lazy fat fuck cruising around in one of those electric carts, basket full to the brim of junk food and soda, pisses me right the fuck off. Or they get handicap permits because they're too lazy to walk across a parking lot.


Or, yanno, the reason they're overweight is _because_ of whatever has them using the mobility cart or getting the handicap parking permit. Or maybe the permit is due to something temporary and treatable. I had a high school teacher who got a temporary handicap parking permit while awaiting surgery for a bad ankle. Low mobility resulting in a greater risk of putting on excess weight is hardly surprising.


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## Ludwig Linkermann (Aug 6, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> @Mikazuki Marazhu


Except they're not eating salad.


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## MoguMoguArt (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm kinda in the middle as well. You should probably just take good care of your body. Eat healthy & exercise.
Don't sit around all day. Go out and do something. Works for me :^)

& with eat healthy i mean obvs no weirdass extreme diets. Like Kpop idols like to do. That's extremely unhealthy and it only gets you a bigger eating disorder


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Aug 8, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> @Mikazuki Marazhu


Shut up! I'm not fat! I'm just big boned! >:U


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Aug 8, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Shut up! I'm not fat! I'm just big boned! >:U










Don't worry Mara. You'll always be festively plump in my book. <3


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