# Server Hardware Argument Thread!



## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> They sent all the parts, and we have all the parts, but they were supposed to install and test the system befoer shipping it out. They didn't. They just sent all the parts and went "HEY! Build the server yourself."
> 
> And we went, "No, we didn't spend that much money to get Digital Legos."



Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.

If I were in range of you guys, I could drive over and have that box assembled in 30 minutes. Maybe 45, if it's a really awkward design. Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet. But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up. Expand your search, and you'll find even more people who have far more technical experience than money to donate to your cause. You could have a whole team of free experts at your disposal, who would want nothing more than using you as a reference on a resume when they try for a similar, well-paying job at a major company.

The problem then is, once you start bringing in people who really know what they're doing and love it, they're going to insist that you get better components for them to work with. For example, the Dell? That's a no-no - Dell should not even be trusted with desktops, let alone servers. (And I have a fried processor to prove it - yes, these things need fans!)

And the Sun... I don't know about them, they might be decent, but why bother? They sent you a freaking box of parts; that's _precisely_ what you really need, but you shouldn't be paying some company a boatload of cash for them. And look at the time it took! I have a store right down the street from me that sells everything needed to build a complete server, there's no need to wait for someone to assemble one for you!

Protip: Go to Microcenter, or on eBay, and buy your parts. Get someone to set it all up, or learn to do it for yourself. You get no warranty (especially on eBay), but I feel a better, more reliable system, with enough money left over to _immediately_ replace any bad parts, more than makes up for it. This also applies to desktops. Trust me, I've been doing this a lot longer than your site's been around.


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## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Dragoneer said:


> They sent all the parts, and we have all the parts, but they were supposed to install and test the system befoer shipping it out. They didn't. They just sent all the parts and went "HEY! Build the server yourself."
> 
> And we went, "No, we didn't spend that much money to get Digital Legos."



Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.

If I were in range of you guys, I could drive over and have that box assembled in 30 minutes. Maybe 45, if it's a really awkward design. Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet. But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up. Expand your search, and you'll find even more people who have far more technical experience than money to donate to your cause. You could have a whole team of free experts at your disposal, who would want nothing more than using you as a reference on a resume when they try for a similar, well-paying job at a major company.

The problem then is, once you start bringing in people who really know what they're doing and love it, they're going to insist that you get better components for them to work with. For example, the Dell? That's a no-no - Dell should not even be trusted with desktops, let alone servers. (And I have a fried processor to prove it - yes, these things need fans!)

And the Sun... I don't know about them, they might be decent, but why bother? They sent you a freaking box of parts; that's _precisely_ what you really need, but you shouldn't be paying some company a boatload of cash for them. And look at the time it took! I have a store right down the street from me that sells everything needed to build a complete server, there's no need to wait for someone to assemble one for you!

Protip: Go to Microcenter, or on eBay, and buy your parts. Get someone to set it all up, or learn to do it for yourself. You get no warranty (especially on eBay), but I feel a better, more reliable system, with enough money left over to _immediately_ replace any bad parts, more than makes up for it. This also applies to desktops. Trust me, I've been doing this a lot longer than your site's been around.


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## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Dragoneer said:


> They sent all the parts, and we have all the parts, but they were supposed to install and test the system befoer shipping it out. They didn't. They just sent all the parts and went "HEY! Build the server yourself."
> 
> And we went, "No, we didn't spend that much money to get Digital Legos."



Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.

If I were in range of you guys, I could drive over and have that box assembled in 30 minutes. Maybe 45, if it's a really awkward design. Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet. But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up. Expand your search, and you'll find even more people who have far more technical experience than money to donate to your cause. You could have a whole team of free experts at your disposal, who would want nothing more than using you as a reference on a resume when they try for a similar, well-paying job at a major company.

The problem then is, once you start bringing in people who really know what they're doing and love it, they're going to insist that you get better components for them to work with. For example, the Dell? That's a no-no - Dell should not even be trusted with desktops, let alone servers. (And I have a fried processor to prove it - yes, these things need fans!)

And the Sun... I don't know about them, they might be decent, but why bother? They sent you a freaking box of parts; that's _precisely_ what you really need, but you shouldn't be paying some company a boatload of cash for them. And look at the time it took! I have a store right down the street from me that sells everything needed to build a complete server, there's no need to wait for someone to assemble one for you!

Protip: Go to Microcenter, or on eBay, and buy your parts. Get someone to set it all up, or learn to do it for yourself. You get no warranty (especially on eBay), but I feel a better, more reliable system, with enough money left over to _immediately_ replace any bad parts, more than makes up for it. This also applies to desktops. Trust me, I've been doing this a lot longer than your site's been around.


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## Damaratus (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.



Not quite.  Getting the parts from somewhere else and putting it together risks voiding whatever warranties that might be included.  Rather than decidedly trying to put something together with who we have, even with the experience, it's better to put it into the hands of the people who would automatically have to replace things if it got messed up.  Not only that, but if something happens to break a little ways down the line, the blame will shift to the people who put it together.

Unless you'd want to put up the extra cash in the case that something went wrong in the process of putting it together and building it, not to mention taking the blame for additional down time, I don't think you should be complaining.  I would imagine that the users would much rather know that we're protecting the investments they've made.


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## Damaratus (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.



Not quite.  Getting the parts from somewhere else and putting it together risks voiding whatever warranties that might be included.  Rather than decidedly trying to put something together with who we have, even with the experience, it's better to put it into the hands of the people who would automatically have to replace things if it got messed up.  Not only that, but if something happens to break a little ways down the line, the blame will shift to the people who put it together.

Unless you'd want to put up the extra cash in the case that something went wrong in the process of putting it together and building it, not to mention taking the blame for additional down time, I don't think you should be complaining.  I would imagine that the users would much rather know that we're protecting the investments they've made.


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## Rhainor (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.
> 
> If I were in range of you guys, I could drive over and have that box assembled in 30 minutes. Maybe 45, if it's a really awkward design. Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet. But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up.


It's not a question of experience or ability.  It's a question of warranty, which Damaratus explained above, and the fact that they PAID for the thing to be assembled and tested before it was shipped, and some smartass at CDW decided "No, I don't feel like putting this shit together," and X'd out the "install" part of the order form.


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## Rhainor (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.
> 
> If I were in range of you guys, I could drive over and have that box assembled in 30 minutes. Maybe 45, if it's a really awkward design. Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet. But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up.


It's not a question of experience or ability.  It's a question of warranty, which Damaratus explained above, and the fact that they PAID for the thing to be assembled and tested before it was shipped, and some smartass at CDW decided "No, I don't feel like putting this shit together," and X'd out the "install" part of the order form.


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## Firehazard (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up.


Yeah, but how are you going to know where to look for someone like that?  Just stick your head out the window and holler?  Post a message on the forum and hope whoever volunteers is trustworthy?  There's a reason people have professional companies handle things like this, especially when time and reputation are of the essence.



DigitalMan said:


> For example, the Dell? That's a no-no - Dell should not even be trusted with desktops, let alone servers. (And I have a fried processor to prove it - yes, these things need fans!)


Apparently you (A) have never worked with a Dell server, and (B) missed the whole conversation that went on when the server hunt was going on.  While they may be terrible at making reliable desktop PCs (and really, what brand-name company isn't, anymore?), their servers are highly praised by businesses that use them.  It's not just Dell either: Dreamworks Animation runs their entire render farm on Hewlett-Packard servers, and their desktops are, if anything, even worse than Dell's.



DigitalMan said:


> And the Sun... I don't know about them, they might be decent, but why bother? They sent you a freaking box of parts; that's _precisely_ what you really need, but you shouldn't be paying some company a boatload of cash for them.


That was CDW's fault, not Sun's; Sun guaranteed a pre-built server and some schmuck at CDW decided to just send them the box of parts and blow off the rest of the workday.  This sort of thing happens all the time because the world is full of lazy bastards.

"My philosophy is that anything worth doing is too hard." - Wally from _Dilbert_


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## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Damaratus said:


> Unless you'd want to put up the extra cash in the case that something went wrong in the process of putting it together and building it, not to mention taking the blame for additional down time, I don't think you should be complaining.  I would imagine that the users would much rather know that we're protecting the investments they've made.



You must have missed something in my post. The warranties cost more than they're worth. Sure, I'd be happy to put up the money to replace a part - if you used the parts I'd suggest. Except, if you used the parts I'd suggest, you wouldn't need my money at all, because you'd have plenty left over.

Or even better, split it halfway. On eBay, many things don't have warranties at all; the ones that do cost more. At places like Microcenter, most things cost more, but they all come with basic warranties. But it's still significantly cheaper than what you're doing. I you're afraid of using a screwdriver on these things, find someone who's not - it really isn't that difficult, and if you're breaking things in the process you're just not very good at it.

As an example, I've ordered two motherboards off eBay; one was already fried when I got it, the other got fried during use. So I bought a third one, at the same time as upgrading my processor, and it's running perfectly. All three motherboards cost less than _one_ from a major company.

And the motherboards are actually the only things I've had that happen with, aside from old CD drives that were well past their original warranties anyways. Both of my systems - soon to be all four - are just a bunch of eBay parts stuck together. Even my processor, $50 was a small price to pay for going 64-bit. Yet I run my main computer so hard, at one 3D forum I go to, the professionals want to know how it hasn't melted yet.

And don't forget, the users actually want the site to be _working_. If you bought your stuff from a local tech store, an entire server meltdown would keep you offline for about an hour. And it would cost under $200 to fix, assuming went horribly wrong in something like the motherboard. Every other component would get to stay, meaning there would be less of an issue with donations. I think I'd rather my donated money be put to good use, rather than an exercise in futility.

[Edit:]


Firehazard said:


> While they may be terrible at making reliable desktop PCs (and really, what brand-name company isn't, anymore?), their servers are highly praised by businesses that use them.



Fair enough; I'll retract my statement about Dell servers, then (but my experience with desktops still stands!  ) However, I could still build the same or better server for much cheaper. And, again, if you buy the pieces, you're not relying on someone else to put it together for you. You don't have to wait weeks while an error is fixed. Time is money, right?


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## Tamarik (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> You must have missed something in my post. The warranties cost more than they're worth. Sure, I'd be happy to put up the money to replace a part - if you used the parts I'd suggest. Except, if you used the parts I'd suggest, you wouldn't need my money at all, because you'd have plenty left over.


 
I'm morbidly curious as to what parts you would suggest... because I'm sure that you'd suggest some that are just about never used in a datacenter environment.

Desktop hardware != server hardware.



> Or even better, split it halfway. On eBay, many things don't have warranties at all; the ones that do cost more. At places like Microcenter, most things cost more, but they all come with basic warranties. But it's still significantly cheaper than what you're doing. I you're afraid of using a screwdriver on these things, find someone who's not - it really isn't that difficult, and if you're breaking things in the process you're just not very good at it.


 
Wow, nice little backhanded comment to the administrators at the end of this paragraph. Why don't you just come out and say that they suck and you rock?

The issue here is that you're putting a higher value on the frugality of the site while Dragoneer is putting a higher value on the performance and stability of the site... and he's right in doing so. Purchasing entire servers, blades and racks is the way it's done in a development environment. People in charge of these things pay a premium for this equipment for the _sole purpose_ that they want someone backing their hardware. 

Say your piecemeal server is running a major site like FA and it blows a raid controller at 3 AM; you gonna pick up the phone when an admin calls you to fix it? Signs point to no.

Dell will and they'll be on top of it within an hour. The company I work for uses Dell machines as production equipment and we've had our primary domain controller (PDC) for the store go down... internal tech support had Dell on the phone in ten minutes and they same-day'd replacement parts and a freaking tech to install the new parts in six hours. _That's_ how Dell handles enterprise customers.



> As an example, I've ordered two motherboards off eBay; one was already fried when I got it, the other got fried during use. So I bought a third one, at the same time as upgrading my processor, and it's running perfectly. All three motherboards cost less than _one_ from a major company.


 
The only thing this proves is that you're a sucker for buying defective hardware from an auction site. And if you had bought the "major company" motherboard first, then you would have been guaranteed that it would work and not have wasted your time going through two defective boards. 

Say, if you're interested, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona for you.



> And don't forget, the users actually want the site to be _working_. If you bought your stuff from a local tech store, an entire server meltdown would keep you offline for about an hour. And it would cost under $200 to fix, assuming went horribly wrong in something like the motherboard.


 
You are absolutely clueless as to how server infrastructure and hosting differs from simple desktop computing. This statement just proves it.



> Every other component would get to stay, meaning there would be less of an issue with donations. I think I'd rather my donated money be put to good use, rather than an exercise in futility.


 
No, you want your donated money put to what you _think_ is a good use... it's just that your assumptions are based on false pretenses. Educate yourself as to the differences between enterprise and desktop computing and you'll see where your argument is flawed.



> Fair enough; I'll retract my statement about Dell servers, then (but my experience with desktops still stands!  ) However, I could still build the same or better server for much cheaper. And, again, if you buy the pieces, you're not relying on someone else to put it together for you. You don't have to wait weeks while an error is fixed. Time is money, right?


 
Your experience with desktops means precisely dick when it comes to server hardware. Yes, the underlying technology is the same, but the implementation and requirements are much, MUCH, _MUCH_ different. As such, your argument that you could build a server for less money based on your experience with building desktop machines is invalid.

As for your "Time is money" comment, you're right. If Dragoneer purchased the parts, he wouldn't have to rely on someone else to assemble the machine. He also would have to rely on himself for any repairs or additions... meaning he'd be out of pocket for those, as well. He'd also be out of pocket for his time retreiving the server, time spent shopping for, ordering and waiting on replacement parts, time spent actually performing service on the machine, then time spent testing and replacing the server at the colo.

Meanwhile, in the real world, if something goes wrong, Dragoneer picks up the phone, calls Dell and says "Your shit fucked up." and Dell says "Sorry about that sir, we'll take care of it." and that's the last of it.

Guess which ends up being cheaper in the long run?


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## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*

I think I'd equate Newegg to something like Microcenter. Not as cheap as eBay, but certainly better when it comes to warranties and reliability.

Oh well, I guess I didn't really expect to change anything, I just felt I should voice my opinion on the matter. Without a specific list of components, I can't further my case that buying and assembling them is a better idea than getting a pre-built system - one must take into account warranty cost, component cost, as well as reliability (a $10 component can fail four times before being more expensive than an equivalent $40 component, but some cheap crap from China will do that!)

And I must say, though I question the choices involved in buying the servers, your technical expertise does offer assurance that at least everything is kept running as it should be.

[Edit:] Grr, I type for too long...



Tamarik said:


> I'm morbidly curious as to what parts you would suggest... because I'm sure that you'd suggest some that are just about never used in a datacenter environment.



I'm not sure what I'd suggest. That would require extensive research; these decisions should not be made on a whim.



> Wow, nice little backhanded comment to the administrators at the end of this paragraph. Why don't you just come out and say that they suck and you rock?



Well if they are really unable to assemble a computer, then yeah, I'd say they should find someone who can! But Dragoneer is right, that they don't want to be blamed for the problems. _That_ is the actual issue; there shouldn't be anyone to blame them, anyways.



> Say your piecemeal server is running a major site like FA and it blows a raid controller at 3 AM; you gonna pick up the phone when an admin calls you to fix it? Signs point to no.



My gear is ready 24/7. 15 minutes, I'd be out the door, probably with my "IT Hero" shirt and my "IFiX" hat on. Will most people do that? Doubtful... but you specifically asked _me_.



> The only thing this proves is that you're a sucker for buying defective hardware from an auction site. And if you had bought the "major company" motherboard first, then you would have been guaranteed that it would work and not have wasted your time going through two defective boards.



I'd also have spent over $200, instead of $50. Sorry, my method wins.


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## icehawk (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> And don't forget, the users actually want the site to be _working_. If you bought your stuff from a local tech store, an entire server meltdown would keep you offline for about an hour. And it would cost under $200 to fix, assuming went horribly wrong in something like the motherboard.



Only if the meltdown happens when the store is open, which, in my experience, never happens. In fact just this morning I had a disk cook itself at 1AM after an incident with the AC.


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## Tamarik (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> I'm not sure what I'd suggest. That would require extensive research; these decisions should not be made on a whim.


 
You're right, they aren't. They also aren't pulled from the pool of hardware that you're familiar with. As such, you can't be sure that you could put said server together in that amount of time as you have not provided any evidence that you are familiar with working with that type of hardware.



> Well if they are really unable to assemble a computer, then yeah, I'd say they should find someone who can!


 
I assure you, Dell can. They'll also insure and bond their work on the computer, something you don't really find in the private sector.



> But Dragoneer is right, that they don't want to be blamed for the problems. _That_ is the actual issue; there shouldn't be anyone to blame them, anyways.


 
No, that is not the issue. The issue is that within the type of computer they wish to put into service, there are very few vendors that offer that type of hardware to the general public. Those that do charge a premium and very rarely offer service and support.

Dell, on the other hand, have pre-configured, tested, complete systems using the above hardware (sometimes tweaked for some proprietary technologies) and they _do_ service and support.

What you are advocating simply isn't practical for the type of machine that's being made.



> My gear is ready 24/7. 15 minutes, I'd be out the door, probably with my "IT Hero" shirt and my "IFiX" hat on. Will most people do that? Doubtful... but you specifically asked _me. ... _I'd also have spent over $200, instead of $50. Sorry, my method wins.


 
You value your time so little that you work for free? Can I get my company to hire you?

I don't care how much you love FA and would love to work on their computers, not evaluating the time you spend in manhours supporting the server and adding that to the cost is retarded. I wish I could put a tech on retainer for free.


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## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



kusanagi-sama said:


> Also, this DigitalMan must want FA to fail if FA were to go his route.  No sane person would ever buy hardware off of any auction site.  A sane person would go through a company like NewEgg (I've been using NewEgg for about 7 years and have had great experience with them.  Zero defective hardware from them, and only had to do about one RMA to get a newer revision of a motherboard)



I never claimed to be _sane_, I claimed to have working hardware that I assembled from parts myself at cheaper than buying them normally. But okay, fine, have it your way - a sane person would use Newegg.



icehawk said:


> Only if the meltdown happens when the store is open, which, in my experience, never happens. In fact just this morning I had a disk cook itself at 1AM after an incident with the AC.



Okay, I will give you that. And man does that suck! However, waiting for a store to open is still quicker than getting them shipped. And getting them shipped from Newegg or elsewhere is faster than getting them assembled and then shipped.



Tamarik said:


> You're right, they aren't. They also aren't pulled from the pool of hardware that you're familiar with. As such, you can't be sure that you could put said server together in that amount of time as you have not provided any evidence that you are familiar with working with that type of hardware.



You know, I just looked it up, and it seems you may be right. I mean, what the hell is SATA? Is that some kind of new RAM? And PCI-Express, never heard of that. And I guess you use some kind of "screws" to hold it in the case, sounds like some kind of alien technology...

Seriously, how much of a fool do you take me for? I'm looking at a server motherboard on Newegg right now. It looks exactly like my computer, only with double everything. Literally, that's about it - and no, I'm sorry, but you may not tell me it's different. I know how these components work on the _inside_. It is all the same, and when you get down to it, it's doing exactly the same thing as a desktop computer. An instruction is read by the processor, the processor does math or moves data from one place to another, etc. The DRAM holds a charge in tiny capacitors, which is much less efficient but cheaper than static RAM using flip-flops because the capacitor charge has to be kept up, so on and so forth. The only question is how efficiently it does certain tasks - if it has certain processing properties, I may just get one myself for better rendering speeds. I wonder what you would have to say then? Perhaps that I'm not familiar with the specific thread type on the case screws? Or maybe their case opens different from a desktop? Oh dear, what if the hard drives offer both legacy and SATA power connectors, I'd be really screwed then!

See, Dragoneer made a sensible move. He never said I lack knowledge that I clearly possess, he just said he knows a hell of a lot more, and I got pwn'd. I still think my idea is better, but his superior experience means quite simply he doesn't have to listen, at all. As far as I can tell, that's the best way to argue with a tech specialist, because knowing less sure as hell won't work. However, when you try to convince someone that they don't know something, when they are fully aware they do know it - and especially after they contact sources to be _completely_ sure they know it - you're simply asking for trouble.



> You value your time so little that you work for free? Can I get my company to hire you?



No, I value technology so much that I don't charge when I fix people's computers. Then again, I'm my own boss now.



Chaotis said:


> Well I have to say... being a computer tech at Microcenter (believe it or not) I would recommend against using us for ANYTHING related to a server...except maybe the harddrives. Sure you can get some decent stuff here but nothing server quality. If you got a good service plan on the equipment you did get, expect to pay 10-15% extra on top of that and if something did go wrong the only thing you could do is ship the part to us, have us diagnose it (expect about 5 days on that) then we would fix or replace the part and ship it back... way too long to have a website be down or running on a backup in any case. If this weren't the case I would have PMed dragoneer himself and offered my discount on any of the hardware.



Okay, now _that's_ an overriding opinion. I'll suggest Newegg then. Anything else I should not be going to Microcenter for? >.> (And you don't happen to work at the Mayfield one, do you?)


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## icehawk (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay, I will give you that. And man does that suck! However, waiting for a store to open is still quicker than getting them shipped. And getting them shipped from Newegg or elsewhere is faster than getting them assembled and then shipped.



This is true, but the service Dell and others provide is on-site, so you call them and they come over with parts (within 4 hours if you've paid for that) and they do the replacement for you.


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## DigitalMan (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



icehawk said:


> This is true, but the service Dell and others provide is on-site, so you call them and they come over with parts (within 4 hours if you've paid for that) and they do the replacement for you.



_Day-um!_ Are you sure about that? Dell? 4 hours? Does not compute!

Though this does beg the question, if FA is buying these servers, for crap-loads of money, just to get these incredibly speedy and free repairs... What happened last time, that required buying whole new servers and associated services?


----------



## Chaotis (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*

Edited...


----------



## vlaadlynx (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> _Day-um!_ Are you sure about that? Dell? 4 hours? Does not compute!
> 
> Though this does beg the question, if FA is buying these servers, for crap-loads of money, just to get these incredibly speedy and free repairs... What happened last time, that required buying whole new servers and associated services?




Sorry, After reading all of this, I had to interject.

Digitalman: I'm sure you are well versed in home user hardware, and yes, even server boards are available on newegg, and appear to be about the same as home PC equipment, just with more power capacity. Personally, I run a home server that I have built myself from parts such as that.

However, completely ignoring all the previous arguments, you are missing another important point. Newegg does not sell equipment meant to be rackmounted in high density colocation facilities. Granted, I'm sure you could find some combo of a 2u case and a motherboard that will *work*, however, that combination of equipment is not Designed, specced, and tested to specifically run in a high-usage colocation environment. FA (from what I remember) only has a half-rack of space, or less available to them. They have to fit as much power, & as much storage in this small space as possible.

Also, they don't have instantaneous access to said equipment. Have you ever tried to get access to a high security colo facility? It's not like running a server in the closet or basement. You can't just go walk up to it and hit the power button to reboot it. Granted, from the specs I've read on the new equipment, this will be easier then it has in the past, due to out-of-band management available now 

So, in agreement with the past arguements, and with myself personally having experience in both building servers from parts as you are saying, and working both with Sun Sparc-based Systems , and Dell PowerEdge systems, Trust me when I say that Servers you can build yourself from parts on newegg, and specifically engineered high-density datacenter-bound rackmount servers are in *completely* different leagues.

Also touching on the Time is money issue. Personally, I charge well over $100 an hour for my services... during normal hours. If I have to do something at a datacenter at 3am, you better bet that it had better be worth my time. Considering possible maintenance costs alone (be it Dragoneer's or someone else's time, or money), over a period of time, the servers they ordered are a better investment.

Just my $.20... (gotta adjust for inflation nowadays )

EDIT: Gah, of course, I'm Writing this while Baggy replied  Sorry Baggy & everyone. This is my one and only post on this topic.


----------



## icehawk (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> _Day-um!_ Are you sure about that? Dell? 4 hours? Does not compute!



Yes.



DigitalMan said:


> Though this does beg the question, if FA is buying these servers, for crap-loads of money, just to get these incredibly speedy and free repairs... What happened last time, that required buying whole new servers and associated services?



From what I've heard previous servers were whitebox.


----------



## Geraden (Jul 28, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> _Day-um!_ Are you sure about that? Dell? 4 hours? Does not compute!



As everyone else is telling you, your experience building gaming rigs for your friends is not even slightly relevant here.  Nor, incidentally, is looking up the "server motherboards" on Newegg.


----------



## DigitalMan (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



vlaadlynx said:


> However, completely ignoring all the previous arguments, you are missing another important point. Newegg does not sell equipment meant to be rackmounted in high density colocation facilities. Granted, I'm sure you could find some combo of a 2u case and a motherboard that will *work*, however, that combination of equipment is not Designed, specced, and tested to specifically run in a high-usage colocation environment.



Okay, _that_ makes a difference! _Those_ systems I've yet to work with; when I think server, I think three foot tall box that's really little more than a giant desktop. That's what folks I know have, that's what I see at Microcenter. _Those_ can be built from parts, and I know there definitely are some sites running such a system (probably from a closet). I suppose further opinions on this matter will have to wait until I've encountered a rack system.

Okay, carry on!

Hmm, it seems the highest number of users on the forum coincided with a site crash of some kind. I don't think waiting for the site to come back up could break that record - unless, perhaps, a specific time deadline was set, and then not met


----------



## yak (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay, _that_ makes a difference! _Those_ systems I've yet to work with; when I think server, I think three foot tall box that's really little more than a giant desktop. That's what folks I know have, that's what I see at Microcenter. _Those_ can be built from parts, and I know there definitely are some sites running such a system (probably from a closet). I suppose further opinions on this matter will have to wait until I've encountered a rack system.
> 
> Okay, carry on!













http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4150/gallery/index.xml?t=5&p=1&s=1

This little 1.75 x 19 inch form factor server houses more processing power then just about anything you can put in a desktop server. And I am not even touching the reliability.

Taking the maximum possible capacity for hardware of the Sun server we ordered, we are talking about 2x quad core Xeon processors @3Ghz and 64Gb of ECC FBDIMM, not to mention 8x 300Gb 2.5'' 15k SATA/SAS server drives an 8 port battery backed hardware RAID card, redundant power supplies and even *fans*, 4x gigabit network interfaces with hardware packet processing capabilities and a remote lights out management card.

The motherboard supports memory mirroring and backup pair of DIMMs, the RAID controller supports a backup drive so in case any of those components fail, they are automatically replaced by spares and an appropriate hardware failure notice is sent to administrator.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg for all the improvements server hardware has over desktop.

Server grade hardware is both build to scream and provide the most reliability there can be offered by a piece of silicone. Ever wondered why a quad core Xeon processor costs over $1.3k when you can get the same clocked Core2Quad for 400$?


----------



## dmfalk (Jul 29, 2008)

The only computer hardware built to even higher standards than high-capacity industrial servers are the hardware that goes into space, for obvious reasons, if you know the conditions of space. 

Servers are built like Soviet watches- Not pretty, but will take what even a Timex can't, and still function with precision. (They're built like tanks. For this reason, Soviet-era watches have been highly-prized for many years.)

d.m.f.
*anxiously awaits squirrel nookie*


----------



## ThreeTailedKitsune (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



yak said:


> http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4150/gallery/index.xml?t=5&p=1&s=1
> 
> This little 1.75 x 19 inch form factor server houses more processing power then just about anything you can put in a desktop server. And I am not even touching the reliability.
> 
> ...


o-o i have absolutly NO idea with what you just said. D: god i hate being on at 10:55am. =w=;; that be when i ish most slow. D:


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.


Hi.  Credentials please?  Why should anyone listen to you?



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet.


I never bothered to get mine.  Nobody cares.  It just looks good to some hiring drone, but if you have the experience, whatever.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> You could have a whole team of free experts at your disposal, who would want nothing more than using you as a reference on a resume when they try for a similar, well-paying job at a major company.


You're delusional if you think Fur Affinity (or Ferrox Art LLC) is appropriate to place on a resume.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> some drek about Dell


We've heard it before.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> And the Sun... I don't know about them


That's because you're a weenie, but it's okay.  Everyone starts out somewhere.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> they might be decent, but why bother?


It's simple, really; they're one of the better vendors for this kind of thing.  That said, their hardware tends to last forever.  In fact, as a cost-cutting measure back at one of my startup gigs in 2004, my workstation was a Sun Ultra 10 running Solaris 8.  It'd already been running for 200+ days before I got there, and the uptime had nearly tripled by the time I left.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> I have a store right down the street from me that sells everything needed to build a complete server, there's no need to wait for someone to assemble one for you!


Everyone's heard this before.  You're delusional if you believe that a configuration purchased from a store down the street (unless it's someplace like EPC in St. Charles, MO, which is a reseller for various vendors, including Sun and HP  ) is satisfactory for being shoved in a datacenter and effectively forgotten about.

The main idea WRT purchasing these particular machines was the fact that there was some sort of lights-out management hardware on it.  At least, that was the case until they purchased the Dell, but I'm not saying anything... wait...



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> Protip: Go to Microcenter, or on eBay, and buy your parts. Get someone to set it all up, or learn to do it for yourself. You get no warranty (especially on eBay), but *I feel a better, more reliable system,* with enough money left over to _immediately_ replace any bad parts, more than makes up for it. This also applies to desktops. *Trust me, I've been doing this a lot longer than your site's been around.*


Emphasis mine.

Regarding the first emphasized phrase, please, no, you're delusional.  I wouldn't trust a machine like that for anything but a front-end app server.  It isn't a nice machine by any stretch, and I wouldn't trust it with my database.

Regarding the second emphasized phrase, we've heard it before.  I wouldn't trust anything you say mainly because you want to jury-rig a machine using various parts purchased off eBay, and you say nothing else regarding what task it should fulfill in the grand scheme of things.



DigitalMan said:


> You must have missed something in my post. The warranties cost more than they're worth. Sure, I'd be happy to put up the money to replace a part - if you used the parts I'd suggest. Except, if you used the parts I'd suggest, you wouldn't need my money at all, because you'd have plenty left over.


No.  The warranties are well worth the money spent on them.  If the whole mess fails, you aren't out your $4000 investment, and the manufacturer will swap the machine out for you with sufficient bench testing to reassure the customer that it won't fail in exactly the same manner.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> Or even better, split it halfway. On eBay, many things don't have warranties at all; the ones that do cost more. At places like Microcenter, most things cost more, but they all come with basic warranties. But it's still significantly cheaper than what you're doing. I you're afraid of using a screwdriver on these things, find someone who's not - it really isn't that difficult, and if you're breaking things in the process you're just not very good at it.


Who cares if it's cheaper?  Is the quality of the components still there?  Is the customer support still there in case we have questions?



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> some drek about buying motherboards off eBay


We've heard it before.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> And the motherboards are actually the only things I've had that happen with, aside from old CD drives that were well past their original warranties anyways. Both of my systems - soon to be all four - are just a bunch of eBay parts stuck together. Even my processor, $50 was a small price to pay for going 64-bit. Yet I run my main computer so hard, at one 3D forum I go to, the professionals want to know how it hasn't melted yet.


Desktop boxes, desktop boxes, desktop boxes.  You're still thinking desktop boxes.

Rackmount configurations running in a datacenter are an entirely different breed.  Get out of my pool.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> And don't forget, the users actually want the site to be _working_. If you bought your stuff from a local tech store, an entire server meltdown would keep you offline for about an hour.


OK, but what if buying the more expensive box were a preventative measure to keep that "meltdown" from ever happening?



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> And it would cost under $200 to fix, assuming went horribly wrong in something like the motherboard. Every other component would get to stay, meaning there would be less of an issue with donations. I think I'd rather my donated money be put to good use, rather than an exercise in futility.


I don't know what planet you're from, but dual-proc motherboards these days cost upwards of $400, and that's for the middle-of-the-road kit in most cases.



			
				DigitalMan said:
			
		

> Fair enough; I'll retract my statement about Dell servers, then (but *my experience with desktops still stands!*  ) However, *I could still build the same or better server for much cheaper.* And, again, if you buy the pieces, you're not relying on someone else to put it together for you. You don't have to wait weeks while an error is fixed. *Time is money, right?*


Emphasis mine.

Regarding the first emphasized phrase, relevance?  Who cares?

Regarding the second, that's speculation, and I don't believe an ounce of it.  Very few shops actually go out and spec their own machines from scratch anymore because the maintenance for rackmount units <=2RU is somewhat specialized.  Not a whole lot of people can work on them without butchering them up, and those who can tend to be expensive.  This is truth; don't try to argue this point with me because you'll simply lose.

Ugh, at this point, I just couldn't keep up with it.  There's too much to say here for one post; what I've written here should suffice.

[size=+2]In case this was tl;dr, here's the Cliff's Notes: You are a blithering moron.  You have nothing new to bring to the table.  I don't see anything trustworthy in what you say.[/size]


----------



## Jim094 (Jul 29, 2008)

*OT  (Was Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08)*



DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.





DigitalMan said:


> And the Sun... I don't know about them.



You're kidding right? PLEASE don't tell me you don't know about Sun Microsystems




DigitalMan said:


> Protip: Go to Microcenter, or on eBay, and buy your parts. Get someone to set it all up, or learn to do it for yourself. You get no warranty (especially on eBay), but I feel a better, more reliable system, with enough money left over to _immediately_ replace any bad parts, more than makes up for it. This also applies to desktops. Trust me, I've been doing this a lot longer than your site's been around.



FA isn't building an el cheapo white box computer (Why do these situations always bring out the 'I know teh compters, I've been using computers since WinXp cam out and I can make 1 for nothing for you).

And seriously, you wrote here "I've been doing this a lot longer than your site's been around". Combine that with not knowing about Sun, whoa boy.

At my last job we got in a fairly bright kid (19) who swore he knew everything about computers. I handed him a very SIMPLE LCD clock display that needed to be re-soldered due to cracked solder welds, a repair from a car stereo. He looked at me blankly and told me he didn't know how to solder. Don't even ask me about our peculiarly awkward conversation about DIP switches. Frankly, if you can't tell me when President Gerald Ford was elected (A trick question) then don't tell me "I've been doing this a lot longer than ** ."  : )


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: OT  (Was Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08)*



Jim094 said:


> At my last job we got in a fairly bright kid (19) who swore he knew everything about computers. I handed him a very SIMPLE LCD clock display that needed to be re-soldered due to cracked solder welds


At 19, I would've been telling you that solder isn't a weld. 



			
				Jim094 said:
			
		

> He looked at me blankly and told me he didn't know how to solder.


That's a damn shame, but on the other hand, it isn't surprising.  A lot of these kids come into this field thinking that their supar reet skeelz at conuter-striek and building supar fsat!!! gaimng machiens!!! will help them build and repair computers and other bits of consumer electronics worth anything.



			
				Jim094 said:
			
		

> Don't even ask me about our peculiarly awkward conversation about DIP switches. Frankly, if you can't tell me when President Gerald Ford was elected (A trick question) then don't tell me "I've been doing this a lot longer than ** ."  : )


I like your style.  I usually just ask the kids to render a salute to the national ensign on their way out and not to let the door hit them on the ass in the process...


----------



## Dax (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*

Just tossing it out there, but I don't think that if Dell wasn't reliable and a good company for enterprise grade hardware, EA wouldn't be using them exclusively for their 3K+ servers in my building all running the EA Nation, and just about everyone one of their online game-servers.


----------



## Jim094 (Jul 29, 2008)

*OT  (Was Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08)*



nrr said:


> That's a damn shame, but on the other hand, it isn't surprising.  A lot of these kids come into this field thinking that their supar reet skeelz at conuter-striek and building supar fsat!!! gaimng machiens!!! will help them build and repair computers and other bits of consumer electronics worth anything.



Most of the kids I'm getting are 'replacers' and not 'repairers' yet they complain "Oooo, my ZUNE broke, now I have to get another one". Take the friggin' thing apart and repair the likely minor problem! (I have a brown ZUNE that was given to be because it wouldn't charge, guess what was wrong? Solder weld!) Rarely have I found a dead piece of equipment to be unrepairable.

Anyway, that's enough posts from me. I'm at my 6 month quota already and it's really not on topic. : )


----------



## Kerosuppi (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*

Moral of the story: Server hardware is a completely different game. Those of you with no experience in said hardware should henceforth shut your collective traps and let those who do work. Feel free to watch.


<3


Hope the data migration is going well.

-Kero


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Kerosuppi said:


> Moral of the story: Server hardware is a completely different game. Those of you with no experience in said hardware should henceforth shut your collective traps and let those who do work. Feel free to watch.


*[size=+2]Quoted for truth.[/size]*


----------



## Pi (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Kerosuppi said:


> Moral of the story: Server hardware is a completely different game. Those of you with no experience in said hardware should henceforth shut your collective traps and let those who do work. Feel free to watch.-Kero



A++++++ WOULD YIFF AGAIN


----------



## Rossyfox (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



DigitalMan said:


> And the Sun... I don't know about them, they might be decent, but why bother?.



How can you talk about this stuff and NOT know about Sun?


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Rossyfox said:


> How can you talk about this stuff and NOT know about Sun?


Two things.  He's either a gaimng computar!!! enthiuissat!!!, or... he's a gaimng computar!!! enthiuissat!!!

He said it himself that his idea of a server for FA was pretty much a glorified desktop box, which leads me to believe that he has no clue about what real hardware is.


----------



## Dax (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



nrr said:


> Two things.  He's either a gaimng computar!!! enthiuissat!!!, or... he's a gaimng computar!!! enthiuissat!!!
> 
> He said it himself that his idea of a server for FA was pretty much a glorified desktop box, which leads me to believe that he has no clue about what real hardware is.




On a completely somewhat unrelated side note, there's a sun drive array in one of our customer's cages that's just labeled "DO NOT DROP ON FOOT."

I giggle at it every time I walk by.

And it's kind of true, too. Not because the server would break, but because your FOOT would break looooong before that box ever would.


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Dax said:


> And it's kind of true, too. Not because the server would break, but because your FOOT would break looooong before that box ever would.


I dropped my SPARCstation 5 on my foot once and paid for it for a week.

I powered it on with a bandage on my foot, and it booted right back up.


----------



## TigerShadowclaw (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Rossyfox said:


> How can you talk about this stuff and NOT know about Sun?



Good question, even if you (somehow) haven't heard Sun Microsystems Servers/Workstations, you should at least have heard about the company because of java and javascript being used just about everywhere on the internet.


----------



## Pi (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



TigerShadowclaw said:


> java and javascript


 have nothing to do with each other.


----------



## tsawolf (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Pi said:


> have nothing to do with each other.



True, but technically speaking, Sun Microsystems owns the trademark "JavaScript".[sup]1[/sup]


----------



## Pi (Jul 29, 2008)

The title of this thread abbreviates to "SHAT". How appropriate.

Anyway, I think the general consensus is that only 1% of the people who think they know anything actually do. Thread over.


----------



## TigerShadowclaw (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Pi said:


> have nothing to do with each other.



I realize that, but because Sun owns the copyright for the name "JavaScript" their name usually pops up somewhere close by.


----------



## harry2110 (Jul 29, 2008)

DigitalMan said:


> Okay. I've been watching this from afar for quite a while now, but this just has to be said: You're doing it wrong. Now, you've made a great site, and the hardware you've chosen is impressive, but you're really wasting both money and technology here.
> 
> If I were in range of you guys, I could drive over and have that box assembled in 30 minutes. Maybe 45, if it's a really awkward design. Of course, I'm not the only one of my kind. And I'm not the best; I don't even have my A+ Certification yet. But wherever you are (assuming that's an urban or suburban area), within 20 miles there are no less than four equally or greater qualified nerds that would do the job for *free* just because it's _fun_. There are also probably qualified furries, who would do it for a minimal charge just because they want to help get the site up. Expand your search, and you'll find even more people who have far more technical experience than money to donate to your cause. You could have a whole team of free experts at your disposal, who would want nothing more than using you as a reference on a resume when they try for a similar, well-paying job at a major company.
> 
> ...



I would travel 30 miles and do it for free just to get the server back up and running. I do have my A+ and net +. Also i'm working on a ccna.


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



TigerShadowclaw said:


> I realize that, but because Sun owns the trademark for the name "JavaScript" their name usually pops up somewhere close by.


Fixed.

For the uninitiated, let's go over what exactly intellectual property rights are.

 Copyrights protect the contents of a particular work.  In essence, it protects the pattern of words that comprises your story, the pattern of lines and colors that comprises your drawing, or the pattern of sinusoidal waves that comprises your recorded song.  This is applicable to other works as well; it is not necessarily limited to just these.
 Trademarks protect a particular noun.  A noun is a person, place, thing, idea, or state of being.  JavaScript is a name, so protection under trademark law applies.  Fender conveys the idea of Fur Affinity, so this character (not any particular drawing of him) is protected under trademark law.  The Mizzou Tiger is another example.  Zig Zag makes people think of Max Blackrabbit, so Zig Zag also qualifies for protection under trademark law.
 Patents protect a particular process or apparatus.  A patent would protect, for example, a new kind of trebuchet that launches in an unorthodox way.  A patent would also protect, say, a solid-state carburetor in a car that has no moving parts.

IANAL, but hey, whatever.  Nobody's going to care.


----------



## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

harry2110 said:


> I do have my A+ and net +. Also i'm working on a ccna.


This is relevant how?


----------



## Dax (Jul 29, 2008)

nrr said:


> This is relevant how?



<sarcasm> I didn't know Cisco made servers. </sarcasm>


----------



## Runefox (Jul 29, 2008)

Three little letters really suck the life out of any custom-built solution that isn't warrantied or serviced by any firm:

RMA.

Ouch. Yeah, take it from me, you send it off, you get it back - in about 5-10 weeks. Sometimes they're a little better, but I usually don't see stuff until at least a month after the fact. So, warranties in this case are pretty useless as far as servers are concerned, especially considering most stores or online firms won't just hand you a replacement over the counter and RMA the broken/defective one for you. That's where Dell or HP's on-site/next-day RMA service really comes in handy - Part blows, they immediately send you a new one or have a rep at your door with a new one, meaning very little downtime. Extra cost for the potential for nothing happening? Yes. But the potential is there, and security and peace of mind is worth something. So is the assurance to your customers (or in this case, visitors) that the site will be operational with a certain degree of reliability and with minimal downtime.

Building a server for a small business or similar is fine, especially when supported by a local business. Building a server for a colo or datacenter in general is a Bad Idea (TM), because it offers very little access for service technicians, and it introduces the possibility for extended downtime (especially if a replacement part is immediately out of the question and waiting for RMA is the only option, such as with an FA-style budget), which is unacceptable for larger organizations, non-profit or commercial.

As we've seen, obviously.


----------



## ponyguy (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



yak said:


> http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4150/gallery/index.xml?t=5&p=1&s=1
> Server grade hardware is ... built to scream



Sure is!  Those little 1U fans are freaking LOUD.  I like my 2U Supermicro, but even that is a little too loud for comfort.  Among all the other differences servers have from desktops, they are designed to run cool, not to be nice to sit near.  When I worked in the Dell Server Lab, when one of the blade servers decided to kick into high cooling mode, it sounded just like an F-15 taking off, and just about the same volume level.  You could hear them down the hall.  There were days when I was tempted to bring in my hearing protectors.

I notice our supergenius didn't mention anything about power conditioning, either.  A good UPS is absolutely essential.  My 2U server pegs out my 1KW UPS, but I've got a 2.2KW UPS that just needs a new battery (saving up -- $150 just for a battery).  Of course, in a data center that's taken care of, what with diesel backup, etc, but I suspect someone's heart would stop if they priced out a 3KW APC SmartUPS.


----------



## Runefox (Jul 29, 2008)

Hey, neat, I saw an ad for those 1U jobbies in the Linux Journal a while back. Fitting 3 expansion cards in that space is difficult work. And full-length cards, to boot!

Also, while we're talking about UPS'es, you need not only a good one, but an _online_ one for it to be really effective (though good ones usually do have this for these purposes, it's worth saying). What this means is that the systems are running off the battery constantly, with the battery charging from the wall until power drops. When that happens, there's no "switchover", and thus no sag/spike that could cause the hardware attached to reboot. As an added bonus, the power is usually squeaky clean coming from the battery.


----------



## Dax (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



ponyguy said:


> Sure is!  Those little 1U fans are freaking LOUD.  I like my 2U Supermicro, but even that is a little too loud for comfort.  Among all the other differences servers have from desktops, they are designed to run cool, not to be nice to sit near.  When I worked in the Dell Server Lab, when one of the blade servers decided to kick into high cooling mode, it sounded just like an F-15 taking off, and just about the same volume level.  You could hear them down the hall.  There were days when I was tempted to bring in my hearing protectors.
> 
> I notice our supergenius didn't mention anything about power conditioning, either.  A good UPS is absolutely essential.  My 2U server pegs out my 1KW UPS, but I've got a 2.2KW UPS that just needs a new battery (saving up -- $150 just for a battery).  Of course, in a data center that's taken care of, what with diesel backup, etc, but I suspect someone's heart would stop if they priced out a 3KW APC SmartUPS.



Where I work, we have 7 2.5 megawatt backup generators. 5 live, one redundant, and one swing. We have N+1 redundancy for everything, including the UPS's, AC units, and PDU's. We could run for 3 and a half days with the fuel on site, or quite literally indefinitely as long as we could still get trucks to deliver fuel. And the day THEY fail to get there, I think power generation would be the LEAST of our worries.

And that's just our ONE building. We have 4 more in the campus. I think all in all, we have a total power generation capacitance of about 61 megawatts.

Imagine what our power bill is every month. =P


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## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

Dax said:


> <sarcasm> I didn't know Cisco made servers. </sarcasm>


Haha, something like that.

... but what I really mean is, like, how is A+ (which is effectively tab A to slot B) going to be useful?  How are Network+ and CCNA going to be useful?


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## nrr (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



			
				Dax said:
			
		

> And that's just our ONE building. We have 4 more in the campus. I think all in all, we have a total power generation capacity of about 61 megawatts.


I think it's time to invest in a nuclear power station. 

Also, capacitance describes the amount of charge stored for a certain amount of current potential.  1 farad = 1 coulomb/volt, etc.


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## Dax (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



nrr said:


> I think it's time to invest in a nuclear power station.
> 
> Also, capacitance describes the amount of charge stored for a certain amount of current potential.  1 farad = 1 coulomb/volt, etc.



Thanks, wikipedia. =3

And yeah, I was just kinda rambling on and typed the wrong thing. Thanks for the correction.


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## Dax (Jul 29, 2008)

Also, do you know how good 2400 combined tons of forced cooling feels on a 105 degree day?


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## hiphopopotimus (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Server Installation - Sched. Monday 28JUL08*



Pi said:


> A++++++ WOULD YIFF AGAIN



Instead of office chair, Yiff contained bobcat.

Would not buy again. A--


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## NerdyMunk (Jul 29, 2008)

I would think it would take a good amount of time to get new hardware in as well as improving site features.


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