# What Makes a Story Good?



## unwisedragon (Jun 7, 2013)

There are some books that stand out from the rest (even if it is just for you) and deserve a place higher than most stories!
... but why are these books actually good?
What makes you enjoy a book?

I tend to read fantasy and science fiction stories.
I would love to expound my views but I'm not going to have time to until Sunday.


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## Falaffel (Jun 7, 2013)

Ideas, plot, and the depth of characters.
Edit: to add to this... depth of the world/setting, the conflicts, pacing, and lastly how well writen it is in general (does it get the ideas to the reader properly?)

Sorry I missed thing so. Edit edit: and the events that happen to you during reading effects your perception of certain things including the book.


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## unwisedragon (Jun 7, 2013)

Ick I couldn't resist...
Plot is absolutely meaningless. Unless you are insane, your plot is going to follow the same structure as almost every other plot in your genre. I would argue that the delivery of the plot is key rather than simply the plot.


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## Car Fox (Jun 7, 2013)

It depends of a plethora of criteria. It may also depend on the kind of story you are telling. I want to say more, but that would be a lot of typing, and my phone is about to die.


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## Falaffel (Jun 7, 2013)

unwisedragon said:


> Ick I couldn't resist...
> Plot is absolutely meaningless. Unless you are insane, your plot is going to follow the same structure as almost every other plot in your genre. I would argue that the delivery of the plot is key rather than simply the plot.


Are you saying books/stories in the same genre have the same plot? That's how you make a bad book/story sir.

In addition I meant plot in general.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jun 7, 2013)

It's got to have a lasting impact on the reader, and keep the reader wanting to turn the page every time.

And there's many ways to get to that, but that's what one should really hope to achieve.


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## Conker (Jun 7, 2013)

Characters. Interesting characters can make a fairly run of the mill plot interesting.


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## Teal (Jun 7, 2013)

unwisedragon said:


> Ick I couldn't resist...
> Plot is absolutely meaningless. *Unless you are insane, your plot is going to follow the same structure as almost every other plot in your genre.* I would argue that the delivery of the plot is key rather than simply the plot.


 What?


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## Cain (Jun 8, 2013)

Follow the George RR Martin route.

Make your readers expect the unexpected, and still make them go 'WHAT THE FUCK!?'

Also atmosphere, settings, and how much you describe them. I like my stories to feel descriptive, not overly so, but I like it when a story feels the need to minutely describe the surroundings every now and then.

Story is, of course, very important. If it ain't interesting, the reader won't find the effort to pick the book up and continue it worth it.


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## Harbinger (Jun 8, 2013)

Cain said:


> Follow the George RR Martin route.



And kill everyone you love.


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## Cain (Jun 8, 2013)

Harbinger said:


> And kill everyone you love.


SPOILERS

I still haven't seen any of the new season yet, but I already know a bit about the wedding thing. NO MORE.


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## Hewge (Jun 8, 2013)

ACTION.
HEARTBREAK.
HAPPINESS.
ROMANCE.
*AND MORE ACTION ! ! !*


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## Kangamutt (Jun 8, 2013)

Cain said:


> Follow the George RR Martin route.
> 
> Make your readers expect the unexpected, and still make them go 'WHAT THE FUCK!?'
> 
> ...



Not to mention you either care for the characters or absolutely hate their fucking guts. I almost wanted to stop reading after the Red Wedding (TV episode: Rains of Castemere). My friend actually threw the book across the room after reading that scene and I hear someone actually broke their kindle. I think the worst parts are where George makes you think they're dead for like 5 chapters. I think the one that left me both happy and absolutely pissed was


Spoiler: Arya



during the Red Wedding Arya was at the Twins with the Hound, and she was heading to the castle, and certain doom. But the Hound rides up and knocks her out with the flat of his axe. George, however, made it vague enough to make you think he cleaved her over the head and split her skull open.



So yeah. Caring for the characters. It makes for an engaging story.


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## captainbrant (Jun 8, 2013)

.


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## M. LeRenard (Jun 8, 2013)

unwisedragon said:
			
		

> Plot is absolutely meaningless. Unless you are insane, your plot is going to follow the same structure as almost every other plot in your genre. I would argue that the delivery of the plot is key rather than simply the plot.


I think you're confusing plot itself for general plot structure.  It's true that, unless you're a genius and can get away with it, you should generally follow one of the standard story arcs (e.g. the Hero's Journey) and give it your own twist.  However, the details of that are very important; you can't just re-write Star Wars and expect people to not notice.  If you can write a hero's journey with great big twist on the classics, people appreciate it that much more for its innovation and novelty.  The trick is to not get TOO novel, or else you lose half your audience by confusing them.

Anyway... what makes a story good.  Jeez.  If I really wanted to break it down, I could probably write a two hundred page treatise on this subject, most of which would be filled by giving examples of different ways of achieving the same thing.  Luckily, a lot of it is just personal preference: some people just want to ride the waves, others like to go diving down into them and exploring, others like it when the waves take them somewhere they weren't expecting to go, and so on.  I'm usually the latter, but it's complicated.
I think what I tend to appreciate as 'good' is writing that's surprising in the language, the ideas, the characters, and the plot... as long as all such things are done competently.  The last part there I think is the most important.  If you as the author cannot achieve what you set out to achieve, you've failed, and your story is therefore not 'good'.  I think that's the most objective way of looking at such a subjective medium.  Then the other stuff is the subjective part.  Basically the whole, "It was well-written, but I'm not a fan of [genre]," or what have you.


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## Conker (Jun 9, 2013)

M. LeRenard said:


> I think you're confusing plot itself for general plot structure.  It's true that, unless you're a genius and can get away with it, you should generally follow one of the standard story arcs (e.g. the Hero's Journey) and give it your own twist.  *However, the details of that are very important; you can't just re-write Star Wars and expect people to not notice.*  If you can write a hero's journey with great big twist on the classics, people appreciate it that much more for its innovation and novelty.  The trick is to not get TOO novel, or else you lose half your audience by confusing them.


I thought that Palouni dude did exactly that only with dragons.


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## unwisedragon (Jun 9, 2013)

M. LeRenard said:


> I think you're confusing plot itself for general plot structure.  It's true that, unless you're a genius and can get away with it, you should generally follow one of the standard story arcs (e.g. the Hero's Journey) and give it your own twist.  However, the details of that are very important; you can't just re-write Star Wars and expect people to not notice.  If you can write a hero's journey with great big twist on the classics, people appreciate it that much more for its innovation and novelty.  The trick is to not get TOO novel, or else you lose half your audience by confusing them.


This is a much better way of saying what I had hoped to convey - thanks for it! I believe I was confusing plot and general plot structure. I had thought that plot *was* the structure. Learning is good.


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## Falaffel (Jun 9, 2013)

Hewge said:


> ACTION.
> HEARTBREAK.
> HAPPINESS.
> ROMANCE.
> *AND MORE ACTION ! ! !*


Hewge gave best answer. Clapity clap.


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## miskey (Jun 12, 2013)

Hewge said:


> ACTION.
> HEARTBREAK.
> HAPPINESS.
> ROMANCE.
> *AND MORE ACTION ! ! !*


I agree with this, but after action I would say humor. A humorous story, is a great story


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## Sparklight (Jun 12, 2013)

Characters and characterization plain and simple. If you devote all your time to characterization the plot will typically follow. I recently read The Magicians by Lev Grossman and I didn't like the main character and I just had to force myself to read through it. The setting was interesting (Hogwarts if it were a college) and the plot and the writing were solid, but those characters just weren't any fun and the author really had it out for fantasy stories (like a personal vendetta against CS. Lewis). Also arctic fox sex, which is probably the only reason I kept reading.


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## Zabrina (Jun 12, 2013)

Sound story structure, witty, interesting characters, and the ability to make people cry and laugh in a matter of seconds.


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## Pinky (Jun 12, 2013)

Detail, progression and characters are the most important to me.


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## Troj (Jun 13, 2013)

unwisedragon said:


> Ick I couldn't resist...
> Plot is absolutely meaningless. Unless you are insane, your plot is going to follow the same structure as almost every other plot in your genre. I would argue that the delivery of the plot is key rather than simply the plot.



Actually, you're not wrong. Depending on who you ask, there might be as little as three possible plots, or as many as sixty-nine. Personally, I'm partial to George Polti's 36.

From there, a la Joseph Campbell, there are particular plot "beats" or "arcs" that resonate with audiences on a primal level, to the point where people will often feel uneasy or dissatisfied if they are absent.

It's what you do _with_ an "unoriginal" plot that matters, in the end. 

For me, a "good" story is typically one which:

*Demonstrates an understanding of the elements of the Hero's Journey, and why those elements resonate with people.
*Demonstrates an understanding of the traditional plot arcs, beats, tropes, and archetypes, and why they resonate with people.
*Has a protagonist who _desires_ something, and who attempts to fulfill that desire in some way. The audience must be able to empathize with the character's yearning, even if they don't understand, agree with, or relate to the object of that yearning.
*Has a protagonist the audience can at least relate to, even if they don't necessarily like or agree with them.
*Has a protagonist who changes in some way over the course of the story, if only in a subtle way. There are exceptions to this rule, but generally, audiences feel uneasy with a protagonist who doesn't change, unless there appears to be a compelling reason for it.


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## SilverKhajiit (Jun 18, 2013)

For me to be good everything has to move (Plot, dialogue, etc.), you can't have gaps and everything has fit (like Tetris  ) it also has to have an impact, in many ways you can think of a story as a video game.


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## Generalissimo (Jun 19, 2013)

Lots of character development/depth. A somewhat original plot and evasion of cliches also makes a story exemplary (i.e. machines imploding trying to solve a paradox). Non-terribad dialogue is a must. Good books that I have read included a combination of internal and external conflicts. Allow me to have an example to explain this (though it is bad).
EX:
A soldier fighting for a revolutionary force against a tyrannical government is an external conflict. However, his family is in the city that is about to be attacked. The soldier must choose to either obey orders and participate in the siege or risk his position/reputation in the rebel force and save his family. 

That would be an internal conflict. I hope this post was helpful.

EDIT: Also refrain from having tons of plot holes.


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## Rakamat (Jun 22, 2013)

The typical killers of a good story:

--Moderate Issues
*Characters critical to the plot are already developed or have little development onto of what they already are/have no good reason to exist beyond being checked off on the list [See: Any books by Stephanie Meyer]
*Characters act towards events or other characters in way that are completely unbelievable or not sensible.[See: A lot of different Animes]
*The story follows a classic and loved formula and doesn't deviate enough from it by providing it's own twists or additions to the content. [See: James Cameron's Avatar]
*Characters have a personality that's boring or has been over saturated with one or two emotions. [See: Anime, Anything by M. Knight Shyamalan]
*The story doesn't present interesting challenges to the protagonist and company, no conflict or rising action to lead the audiences to further following.

--Severe Issues
*The story has obvious plot holes that can't be ignored.[LOTR's Eagles don't count, don't even try to argue][See: Twilight]
*The characters don't evolve or change with the story, aren't affected of events in the story.[See: A lot of fucking movies]
*The story relies to heavily on itself that the characters cannot advance it, good or not.
*The resolutions mad in the final acts do not help the audience walk away with a new perspective or outlook of some kind, or do not convey a message.
*The storyteller meanders hardcore on minor details or exposition that could be explained in other publications, such as Expanded universe books.[See: Any Tolkein or Martin books.]


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