# Furaffinity-Paypal Issues



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

Heyas folks -

Well, it seems a few hours ago, a rumor exploded around that Paypal is banning people associated with Furaffinity, or who mention Furaffinity in Paypal messages. 

In what I hope to be big bold red letters, *[size=+3]THIS IS NOT THE CASE.[/size]*

While a more detailed explanation can be found in [fa]aiyoko[/fa]'s journal ( http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2933214 ), I'm going to list out some things here.

Paypal has, as long as I've known them, not allowed their services to be used for porn or adult material. According to the reply in Aiyoko's journal, drawn/painted artwork is okay, but that's really news to me personally, and I don't know how far I'd trust it.

The long and the short of it is that Paypal is not banning all users who also use Furaffinity, nor are they banning transactions because they mention Furaffinity.

So, what's going on? Apparently, people are discussing getting porn in terms that sound like bestiality (which is explicitly not allowed), or other similar things. "Can I get a picture of a tiger doing my character up the ass" is going to look very suspicious, and Paypal has a "ban everything" knee-jerk reaction.

[fa]Redbeanviolin[/fa] has an excellent tutorial regarding how to use Paypal's invoice feature, ( http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6903907/ ), and some people may find this helpful.

I will also reiterate (and this point I must say I'm a bit biased) that you don't want to have your eggs in all one basket, simply because of this. I strongly encourage people to look for alternative payment processors, such as Alertpay or Moneybroker. The former is a service similar to Paypal, and the later also has those options (and is primarily used by online stores for e-commerce, such as GamersGate.com). Also, Google Checkout allows you to edit and create items on the fly. I strongly encourage people explore these alternatives (and any others that may come up) to use in addition to Paypal.

THat's about it, folks. There's no whirlwind of drama of bannings because of FA. 

TL;DR:

Paypal isn't banning people because they use FA.


----------



## Draconas (Nov 23, 2011)

Well spoken, getting a tad annoying too see journals being spammed with assumptions and shit, i just had my what, 90'th journal pop up? kinda rage inducing too people who really don't care.


----------



## Verin Asper (Nov 23, 2011)

of course, they banning folks who recieve money from folks with no common sense :V


----------



## teckworks (Nov 23, 2011)

Motherfucin' A.   I'll never understand why people go straight to chaos theory and just flip the fuck out without looking into policies or asking people questions first...


----------



## Shinxtails (Nov 23, 2011)

I wish people use common sense rather thinking with their cocks.


----------



## Shadow (Nov 23, 2011)

DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!!!!


----------



## Takun (Nov 23, 2011)

>2011
>commissioning porn via paypal

Really furries?


----------



## Daniel Kay (Nov 23, 2011)

That post even managed to calm another "fear" that didn't even have something to do with the original topic as I didn't know drawn material does not fall under the "no pornography" rule... now I'd just have to sort out the legal trouble with my commission work and I could do them again.

PS: Didn't even know that rumor was going around till I read that


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

Takun said:


> >2011
> >commissioning porn via paypal
> 
> Really furries?



It's hard to break customers of payment methods they already know and trust. :<

Hey, I just wanted to say, I'm kind of the whole cause of this thing. I'm so sorry for making such a commotion!

I have a journal detailing everything that happened, so if you want, you can see where it all began: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2933583/


----------



## Verin Asper (Nov 23, 2011)

Sagey said:


> *sniped removed post*



wtf is up with this post?


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> wtf is up with this post?



I have no clue.


----------



## Shadow (Nov 23, 2011)

Takun said:


> >2011
> >commissioning porn via paypal
> 
> Really furries?



If you're gonna reference a -chan function, you can at least make the text light green.


----------



## TechKat (Nov 23, 2011)

With rape, bestiality, incest and children being the reason why Paypal are sniffing our asses, we may be expecting a huge cut down on bestiality and such on FA soon.


----------



## Scapponess (Nov 23, 2011)

Unfortunately, Alertpay seems to be having troubles with people depositing and withdrawing cash to and from their accounts using wire transfers, so it seems they won't be an option for very long...

I just wanted to point out that there's another service that's being launched by Visa in 2012 that's supposed to compete with Paypal called V.me . Hopefully the credit card company will be able to put up some stiff competition for the long-unseated despot that is Paypal. 

Also, there's a service called Dwolla that feels and acts a lot like Paypal without a lot of the hassle. In fact, they're a lot quicker to push to bank accounts than Paypal is (usually Paypal takes about 3-4 business days, Dwolla takes 24 hours, if that). I've personally been using it for some transactions and it's worked out beautifully. I'd suggest any American who wants an alternate payment method go and check them out. Unfortunately, they're only functional in the US at this point, so there's that limitation.

I had never thought of using Google Checkout or Moneybroker before, so thanks for the suggestions OP :3!


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

There's also Serve, which is backed by American Express. o 3o No fees for P2P transfers/payments, unless you use your credit/debit card (starting Jan. 2012, anyways), and includes a prepaid debit card you can use at stores.


----------



## MaDrow (Nov 23, 2011)

*plans to give BitCoin a try*


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

MaDrow said:


> *plans to give BitCoin a try*



The problem with bitcoin (and why I didn't mention it in the original post) is, ultimately, I can't pay my taxes with it.

No, seriously. It's not a real currency, and the security measures in it are not exactly user-friendly. I can't pay my bills with it, so I wouldn't accept it as payment. While I like the idea of a credit system built for the internet age, the way Bitcoin goes about it... No. I'm sorry, but only through the general acceptance of a marketplace working together would it work out.



TechKat said:


> With rape, bestiality, incest and children being the reason why Paypal are sniffing our asses, we may be expecting a huge cut down on bestiality and such on FA soon.



Erm. Whut? That.... er, what? That doesn't make any sense. This isn't FA-the-site, but FA-the-community.


----------



## Devious Bane (Nov 23, 2011)

Takun said:


> furries


In a nutshell.


----------



## Playful_Umbreon (Nov 23, 2011)

i just send money and leave weverything blank and contact the seller of the art goods on the site they seek services from ie www.wildcritters.ws furraffinity bad dragon so furry just contact through there ive done lots just sending money to the emails provided AngelPaw is the one i pay mostly.

Paypal safest way to transfer/buy services and or products just dont say what your buying sheesh.

Double clicked cant delete it sorry.


----------



## CaptainCool (Nov 23, 2011)

Playful_Umbreon said:


> i just send money and leave weverything blank and contact the seller of the art goods on the site they seek services from ie www.wildcritters.ws furraffinity bad dragon so furry just contact through there ive done lots just sending money to the emails provided AngelPaw is the one i pay mostly.



yeah, exactly. the note section in paypal is completely optional, just leave it blank. when you are commissioning an artist he or she should have your paypal name, so identifying your payment shouldnt be an issue.
just put a little common sense into it and there shouldnt be a problem.

and in another (now closed) thread someone posted a screenshot in which the paypal folks said that they dont ban you because you are involved with FA, they only ban you when they see that you commission invloves beastiality, children or other very obscene stuff. but really, who in his right mind would ever want to put that into the payment note? if you are that dumb you deserve to get your paypal account blocked^^


----------



## Ben (Nov 23, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> wtf is up with this post?



He's quoting a funny Youtube video in the most unfunny way possible, essentially.


----------



## Garuru_Wolf (Nov 23, 2011)

Wow, I almost wish the rumors about paypal blacklisting FA were true, because thinking about how furries managed to get themselves on Paypal's alert radar in the first place just makes me sad... :I


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

They did cite "www.furaffinity.net" among the reasons for the person's ban as well as two transactions that contained only a comment about FA. I do find the fact that they cited those items to be significant even if they are not the sole causes.


----------



## Xandrah (Nov 23, 2011)

Some people really do over react I had like 100 Journals crying about this, thank you for clearing it up in this thread, common sense really though. Of course pay pal is going to ban if you start to explain what that picture is.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> The problem with bitcoin (and why I didn't mention it in the original post) is, ultimately, I can't pay my taxes with it.
> 
> No, seriously. It's not a real currency, and the security measures in it are not exactly user-friendly. I can't pay my bills with it, so I wouldn't accept it as payment. While I like the idea of a credit system built for the internet age, the way Bitcoin goes about it... No. I'm sorry, but only through the general acceptance of a marketplace working together would it work out.



You just trade BitCoin for USD, it's not a bad system really, but you do have to have market savvy.


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

CaptainCool said:


> yeah, exactly. the note section in paypal is completely optional, just leave it blank. when you are commissioning an artist he or she should have your paypal name, so identifying your payment shouldnt be an issue.
> just put a little common sense into it and there shouldnt be a problem.
> 
> and in another (now closed) thread someone posted a screenshot in which the paypal folks said that they dont ban you because you are involved with FA, they only ban you when they see that you commission invloves beastiality, children or other very obscene stuff. but really, who in his right mind would ever want to put that into the payment note? if you are that dumb you deserve to get your paypal account blocked^^



Hilariously, I don't draw excessively "obscene" material, at least not in regards to adult work. xD I posted my journal link above already, if you want to take a look at my stuff. Plus, uh, well, I wish the person who had put "gay bondage" in his note had gotten banned instead of me. D:


----------



## Polarthief (Nov 23, 2011)

Wait, are you telling me people actually put explicit comments that are OBVIOUS in the PAYPAL message system?!?!!?

All I ever put is "This is for X" or "Thanks again for doing Y" or "HAPPY BIRTHDAY! HERE'S SOME Z FOR YOU!" 

People, you need to realize that Paypal isn't going to be happy when you're using their services and basically going out of your way to let them know you're using it for pornographic material of, say, as summercat said: "Can I get a picture of a tiger doing my character up the ass?" Like why would you ever put that in a non-furry related site? :\

Discuss all details of your commission (especially NSFW parts) in FA, and all SFW details/thank yous in Paypal.


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> They did cite "www.furaffinity.net" among the reasons for the person's ban as well as two transactions that contained only a comment about FA. I do find the fact that they cited those items to be significant even if they are not the sole causes.



But in itself FA was not used as the reason to ban. The thought process would be simple...

1) User had payment through Paypal involving adult keywords
2) Payment is for commission
3) User takes commissions via Furaffinity

Therefore, this user takes adult commissions through Furaffinity, and uses Paypal for 'em. They have 'em down to rights for one transaction, and there's the supporting evidence.

Note: I do not agree with said process. My personal opinion on Paypal is that their policies are bollocks and they wouldn't get away with their behavior if there was any other game in town. My concern was: Is FA or mentions of FA being targetted by Paypal as a reason to shut down accounts. The answer has been shown to be "No."


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Xandrah said:


> Some people really do over react I had like 100 Journals crying about this, thank you for clearing it up in this thread, common sense really though. Of course pay pal is going to ban if you start to explain what that picture is.



The person who got banned's commissioners only mentioned FA... and the other item didn't mention porn (gay bondage, no nudity), plus it was DVD, so even if it had that's allowed by the TOS.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> But in itself FA was not used as the reason to ban. The thought process would be simple...
> 2) Payment is for commission
> l



Payment that contained any "adult keywords" was for a DVD that wasn't even pornographic.

The fact of the matter is that their reasoning for keeping the user from having their account back is because of their connection to FA (the user's FA account being the thing most consistently cited as the reason for the freeze for each e-mail) and because they "might" sell adult work through PayPal, not even because PayPal has proof that they have.

Source: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2933583/


----------



## shnurui (Nov 23, 2011)

I believe we still need a CAL against paypal until they either change their policy or cash out at the same time.

1.  It's theft.  No ifs, ands, or buts.
2.  It could be another tactic by anon, so don't post your paypal emails anywhere.  Sells furry art using paypal, A dollar steals everything they have in paypal, boom, no more paypal, bonus, anon steals from that user.


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> Payment that contained any "adult keywords" was for a DVD that wasn't even pornographic.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that their reasoning for keeping the user from having their account back is because of their connection to FA (the user's FA account being the thing most consistently cited as the reason for the freeze for each e-mail) and because they "might" sell adult work through PayPal, not even because PayPal has proof that they have.



Quite frankly, with Paypal... people just don't seem to realize just HOW strong their knee-jerk reaction to ban everything forever is. They ban people cause they think they MIGHT have an issue down the line. And once an account has been locked down, you are NEVER getting it back. Ever. They'll also hold your money for 6 months. 

But in the end, again - in the story I've read (including the original journal), the words 'gay bondage' in regards to a commission is what triggered all of this. Everything else was dug up after that point.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> But in the end, again - in the story I've read (including the original journal), the words 'gay bondage' in regards to a commission is what triggered all of this. Everything else was dug up after that point.



Again, it wasn't a commission, it was a non-pornographic DVD sold back in 2005 (and besides that pornography in a physical medium is not against their TOS). The only things dug up after that point were the person being connected to FA. If it HAD been a commission I wouldn't even be commenting.

EDIT: At Lillium's post below. I concede my point about the DVD. What PayPal is doing is still wrong though, legally speaking they do have to provide proof and using mentions of FA in place of that proof is a significant sign of a slanted view on their part.


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> But in the end, again - in the story I've read (including the original journal), the words 'gay bondage' in regards to a commission is what triggered all of this. Everything else was dug up after that point.



Correct.

To those saying that the adult keywords were only in regards to a DVD --- the DVD issue was back in 2005 (I used "yaoi" as a keyword on ebay, ebay thought yaoi = porn, they closed my account until I took an AUP test *rolls eyes*). The DVD sales pretty much have nothing to do with this incident, except that Paypal is holding something that happened more than 5 years ago, which they were wrong about, over my head. :c

What summercat says above is correct, the "gay bondage" subject line in a payment for a commission is what started Paypal looking into my account.

I thought I wrote it rather clearly, but I'm not always the most clear person. ; A; Sorry for the misunderstandings.


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

Well I'm glad one person fucked over everybody else!  Now we're going to see trolls stepping up and sending payments for "loads of dicks" and "baby asshole" to people to get them fucked over

*thanks*


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

Lillium said:


> Correct.
> 
> To those saying that the adult keywords were only in regards to a DVD --- the DVD issue was back in 2005 (I used "yaoi" as a keyword on ebay, ebay thought yaoi = porn, they closed my account until I took an AUP test *rolls eyes*). The DVD sales pretty much have nothing to do with this incident, except that Paypal is holding something that happened more than 5 years ago, which they were wrong about, over my head. :c
> 
> ...



Welcome to the wide world of rumors, where everything gets distorted three ways till next Sunday, and people who don't understand English very well assume I'm accusing you of drawing bestiality :v



Clayton said:


> Well I'm glad one person fucked over everybody else!  Now we're going to see trolls stepping up and sending payments for "loads of dicks" and "baby asshole" to people to get them fucked over
> 
> *thanks*



If it were ANY OTHER COMPANY (even a bank), I would say and honestly mean "Well, if the user returns the payment and contacts Paypal regarding harassment, nothing to worry about."

But Sanity? THIS. IS. PAYPAL! *kickban*

I can only hope they do the thing that makes sense.


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> If it were ANY OTHER COMPANY (even a bank), I would say and honestly mean "Well, if the user returns the payment and contacts Paypal regarding harassment, nothing to worry about."
> 
> But Sanity? THIS. IS. PAYPAL! *kickban*
> 
> I can only hope they do the thing that makes sense.



Yeah I would hope people would be able to say that and get it resolved. Maybe refunding/refusing the payment would show tht the user isn't interested in using Paypal for pornographic content

anybody wanna contact them for this? im gonna try and play minecraft


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Well I'm glad one person fucked over everybody else!  Now we're going to see trolls stepping up and sending payments for "loads of dicks" and "baby asshole" to people to get them fucked over
> 
> *thanks*



It'd take more than dicks and assholes. Those are everyday friendly words in some countries. ;D I'd stick to the more sexual phrases, or even just straight up say "for porn." That'd do it.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Lillium said:


> It'd take more than dicks and assholes. Those are everyday friendly words in some countries. ;D I'd stick to the more sexual phrases, or even just straight up say "for porn." That'd do it.



Apparently gay + verb/noun is enough for them. :V


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> Apparently gay + verb/noun is enough for them. :V



I was going to go there, but I was trying to hold out hope that Paypal isn't homophobic (would be willing to bet that's not necessarily the case, though).


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

Lillium said:


> It'd take more than dicks and assholes. Those are everyday friendly words in some countries. ;D I'd stick to the more sexual phrases, or even just straight up say "for porn." That'd do it.


if "gay bondage" will set them off, those ones will.


----------



## KazeNoKitsune (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> I will also reiterate (and this point I must say I'm a bit biased) that you don't want to have your eggs in all one basket, simply because of this. I strongly encourage people to look for alternative payment processors, such as Alertpay or Moneybroker. The former is a service similar to Paypal, and the later also has those options (and is primarily used by online stores for e-commerce, such as GamersGate.com). Also, Google Checkout allows you to edit and create items on the fly. I strongly encourage people explore these alternatives (and any others that may come up) to use in addition to Paypal.



Amazon also has a competing product to PayPal: Amazon Payments.  I'm not sure to what extent their TOS limit the service, but I know for a fact that Amazon has pornographic material, so I doubt their restrictions are going to be _that_ strict.  There's also Amazon's payment processor services if you're willing to invest in creating a site and whatnot for them.  About the biggest thing with them, I think, would be abiding by U.S. law.

*Edit*: Amazon's Checkout Acceptable Use Policy states they prohibit "Adult Oriented Products and Services - includes pornography (including child pornography), sexually explicit materials (in all media types such as Internet, phone, and printed materials), dating services, escort services, or prostitution services" (Nov. 5, 2010) and "Illegal, Inappropriate or Offensive Items or Activities - includes any good or service that violates local, state, or federal laws or regulations or that would be generally offensive to others. Examples include ... any other items or activities that in our judgment are illegal, inappropriate or offensive in connection with our services".  So I guess they aren't any better than PayPal...


----------



## BRN (Nov 23, 2011)

I've had to post links to this and Techwork's journal in about fifty other journals just to get the message out that there is no chaos. Fucking hell, furries.

I commission all the worst things and it's all about just having the sense to know when and where to discuss the details. On a god damn Paypal report is not the right place.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Nov 23, 2011)

Did you tell anyone what started all this? It was a single user who posted of her problem with PayPal trying to cite proof that she did not violate their AUP as proof that she did. Only one person got banned, and she didn't even violate their terms.


----------



## Eva (Nov 23, 2011)

Just curious, since I only see paypal accepted/advertised anywhere....

Can any of these alternative payment processors work on every website out there, or are compatible with paypal?
Like.. can you send money from these alternative options to someone's paypal?

I live in the US and tend to buy stuff from overseas, mainly Hong Kong and Japan.
I don't think the places I like to shop from use anything other than paypal.


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> Did you tell anyone what started all this? It was a single user who posted of her problem with PayPal trying to cite proof that she did not violate their AUP as proof that she did. Only one person got banned, and she didn't even violate their terms.



The user in question has posted in this thread, and did not intend to start a shitstorm. There's no reason to single out someone for this. Further, it doesn't matter how a rumor gets started, only that it is stopped from being spread further.


----------



## Summercat (Nov 23, 2011)

Eva said:


> Just curious, since I only see paypal accepted/advertised anywhere....
> 
> Can any of these alternative payment processors work on every website out there, or are compatible with paypal?
> Like.. can you send money from these alternative options to someone's paypal?
> ...



Unless they give you a credit card number, no. The systems cannot be linked like that.


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> Did you tell anyone what started all this? It was a single user who posted of her problem with PayPal trying to cite proof that she did not violate their AUP as proof that she did. Only one person got banned, and she didn't even violate their terms.



the user stated they didnt violate paypal's TOS by using their services for pornographic content
in one of the "proof" screencaps, there was "gay bondage" in the paypal transaction subject header.

haahhahaah


----------



## Ripnerpner (Nov 23, 2011)

Never trusted paypal myself. Why not just use personal checks like most of the world for commissions? That's what I've always done. And if you don't have a bank account, well you prolly aren't in a financial shape to be getting commissions anyway.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

Wording is key.

Instead of "Here's my payment licking the butthole of some 8 year old cub", or "here's my payment for the super cum orgy", use "Here's the payment for the commission from -username-".




Ripner said:


> Never trusted paypal myself. Why not just use personal checks like most of the world for commissions? That's what I've always done. And if you don't have a bank account, well you prolly aren't in a financial shape to be getting commissions anyway.




Depending on the bank, they take too long to process and they may bounce and fuck up your bank account.. If you REALLY want to send money, send a money order. Cheap, easy, and most stores like 7-11 have them.


----------



## KazeNoKitsune (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> the user stated they didnt violate paypal's TOS by using their services for pornographic content
> in one of the "proof" screencaps, there was "gay bondage" in the paypal transaction subject header.



Actually, the user stated that their customer violated their policies (though not in those words): "I replied to them with my price sheet (which as of this moment says that I take Paypal, but *Alertpay for adult items*)" (Lillium's journal, emphasis added by me for clarity).  Given this, I think that they are absolutely right for being upset with Paypal!  It's not right for PayPal to punish one person for the actions of another.  And it's even worse because they are a "financial institution" and possibly under federal regulation (though, I can neither confirm nor deny with a quick Google search whether or not they come under the federal banking laws) with no oversight.  Even Amazon's policies have alternative means for dispute resolution where they may be found liable.  PayPal's Terms of Service (which, by the way, is a legal binding contract to use their services) affords no protections for the consumer (the PayPal user) when it comes to a dispute between them and PayPal itself.  That's where the problem lies, in my not-so-humble opinion.


----------



## Ripnerpner (Nov 23, 2011)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Depending on the bank, they take too long to process and they may bounce and fuck up your bank account.. If you REALLY want to send money, send a money order. Cheap, easy, and most stores like 7-11 have them.



Well you don't spend the money till you know it's been fully processed that's just common sense. I think some folks are just in too much of a rush about stuff.


----------



## Nathan Karr (Nov 23, 2011)

Wait, why are people surprised at "gay bondage" triggering adult-content inquiries? I'd expect "straight bondage" to trigger the same kind of warning bells.

Also, yes, referring to your characters as the animals they resemble in the context of adult work will trigger "BESTIALITY!" warnings to most people. Heck, it probably ought to to you too.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

Ripner said:


> Well you don't spend the money till you know it's been fully processed that's just common sense. I think some folks are just in too much of a rush about stuff.



Some people do not have that common sense unfortunately. XD


----------



## KazeNoKitsune (Nov 23, 2011)

Ripner said:


> Never trusted paypal myself. Why not just use personal checks like most of the world for commissions? That's what I've always done. And if you don't have a bank account, well you prolly aren't in a financial shape to be getting commissions anyway.



I don't use checks.  In fact, the whole purpose behind PayPal and related services is that the other end never sees my bank account information.  There are so many different ways that someone can defraud a bank account with just one check.  And Money Orders tend to not be as safe because it is significantly harder to stop payment on a money order and impossible if it's already cleared.  A good example is in the case of numerous artists out there (I'm not mentioning names) who take years to complete commissions and demand money up front.  Sending them a money order, and they can just walk away with your money.  It's a heck of a way to do a fraud.  At least with the payment services (PayPal, _et cetera_), the buyer can reverse the transaction and have a better-than-average chance of getting a fair ruling.  This is not to say that there aren't mistakes in the rulings, but it's much easier than having to out-right file charges and such through a bank.


----------



## CannonFodder (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Well I'm glad one person fucked over everybody else!  Now we're going to see trolls stepping up and sending payments for "loads of dicks" and "baby asshole" to people to get them fucked over
> 
> *thanks*


I have a feeling this may actually happen and cause another scare.


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

KazeNoKitsune said:


> Actually, the user stated that their customer violated their policies (though not in those words): "I replied to them with my price sheet (which as of this moment says that I take Paypal, but *Alertpay for adult items*)" (Lillium's journal, emphasis added by me for clarity).  Given this, I think that they are absolutely right for being upset with Paypal!  It's not right for PayPal to punish one person for the actions of another.



False. She accepted $$ for "gay bondage" and was caught for it, then cried and say it was the customer's fault she got banhammered from Paypal.


----------



## CannonFodder (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> False. She accepted $$ for "gay bondage" and was caught for it, then cried and say it was the customer's fault she got banhammered from Paypal.


tl:dr; popfur has hissyfit, watchers white knight artist.


----------



## Kinuki (Nov 23, 2011)

PayPal said:
			
		

> Artwork containing adult material is allowed as long as it does not include bestiality, *rape*, *incest*, or *children*.


Immelmann and Naylor seem to be out of business. _*YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!*_


----------



## CannonFodder (Nov 23, 2011)

Kinuki said:


> Immelmann and Naylor seem to be out of business. _*YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!*_


And nothing of value was lost.


----------



## Zapydos2 (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm assuming those that do clean art are somewhat okay. =\


----------



## MandertehPander (Nov 23, 2011)

Whelp.

Makes me glad i've never had an issue with someone naming off EXACTLY what they wanted in the description, just their username, which is usually what I ask for. Gonna haveta iron that rule out now.


----------



## Polarthief (Nov 23, 2011)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Wording is key.
> 
> Instead of "Here's my payment licking the butthole of some 8 year old cub", or "here's my payment for the super cum orgy", use "Here's the payment for the commission from -username-".



Lololol I laughed :3

Or instead of any of that, just say "Thanks again! " or "Thanks for [so and so]" but not go into detail.


----------



## MarkShark (Nov 23, 2011)

PayPal should ban furry drama, too.


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

Zapydos2 said:


> I'm assuming those that do clean art are somewhat okay. =\



Yep
Luckily, I have never taken a porn commission before.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

Polarthief said:


> Lololol I laughed :3
> 
> Or instead of any of that, just say "Thanks again! " or "Thanks for [so and so]" but not go into detail.




Any wording that does not insunuate paying for pornography.
There are numerous reasons why Paypal refuses to deal with Adult material, and most of them do not involve furries. :V


----------



## Kinuki (Nov 23, 2011)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Instead of "Here's my payment licking the butthole of some 8 year old cub", or "here's my payment for the super cum orgy", use "Here's the payment for the commission from -username-".


"Here's the payment for the commission from hornytiger69"

Uh-oh.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

Kinuki said:


> "Here's the payment for the commission from hornytiger69"
> 
> Uh-oh.




Go sit in a corner.
Most artists ask for usernames when you are paying for a commission so that they know who you are. If you have a username "Fox McButtsex" or "Cumslober Hornydog", then you need to make a new account. :V

And there's the "Expect a payment from yourname@gmail.com" that also denotes who it is coming from.


----------



## Zenia (Nov 23, 2011)

I prefer customers don't enter ANYTHING into the description box. I take commission correspondence through email, so everything stays in one 'conversation' (yay gmail) and I can match their email up to the one listed on PayPal. It isn't like I have a bajillion 'you've got money' notifications that I can get confused anyway.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

I don't think we should be putting up site notices and linking to forum posts/journals on how to circumvent Paypal rules. Period. This is a non urgent matter.

While it is nice to address the rumor about FA or Furaffinity causing automatic suspensions for those with Paypal accounts the rest oversteps the boundaries.

Paypal has different rules for depending on where you live. It is not the site's responsibility or obligation on choices for financial institutions the users use for business transactions.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> False. She accepted $$ for "gay bondage" and was caught for it, then cried and say it was the customer's fault she got banhammered from Paypal.



"Gay bondage" is not implicitly porn, semantically speaking, and PayPal has provided no proof that the image in question was. That's the bigger issue.


----------



## kitsunekoneko (Nov 23, 2011)

i don't do porn commissions so I guess I shouldn't really be saying anything
but uh

people were really sending "I'D LIKE A SEXY PIC OF A TIGER DOING MY WOLF OC IN THE ASS," wait what
That's...
Say it in the PMs, not the PayPal transfer. People should really read a bit of the rules... or just be a bit more... _slick_â€‹... or something, lol

in all honesty i had no idea any of this was going on until I saw the notice (i only watch two people on FA...). Figured I'd check it out because PayPal has a tendency to freeze people for rather vague reasons...


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> "Gay bondage" is not implicitly porn, semantically speaking, and PayPal has provided no proof that the image in question was. That's the bigger issue.



HAHAH
go to a person on the street and ask them what "gay bondage" is. Chances are they're gonna say something related to pornography


----------



## kitsunekoneko (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> "Gay bondage" is not implicitly porn, semantically speaking, and PayPal has provided no proof that the image in question was. That's the bigger issue.



it's true they don't have any proof, so yeah that kinda makes PayPal a little... How do you describe that... :/

But anyway, if you say "Gay Bondage" people will think you're talking about smut. Totally. Because bondage is mostly sexual (if not completely) so yup


----------



## Verin Asper (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> "Gay bondage" is not implicitly porn, semantically speaking, and PayPal has provided no proof that the image in question was. That's the bigger issue.



gay bondage automatically in my head goes "its porn" sure it could be done in a non porn like way...
but its fucking better safe than sorry specially how paypal said it cant be ACTUAL porno it seems.

Thats what paypal was thinking "Better safe than sorry" but of course generic furfags cant think that cause its probably was porn.

now proceed to find me a picture involving bondage that doesnt have the mature or adult tag


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> HAHAH
> go to a person on the street and ask them what "gay bondage" is. Chances are they're gonna say something related to pornography





kitsunekoneko said:


> it's true they don't have any proof, so yeah that kinda makes PayPal a little... How do you describe that... :/
> 
> But anyway, if you say "Gay Bondage" people will think you're talking about smut. Totally. Because bondage is mostly sexual (if not completely) so yup




What random people think is irrelevant when you're talking about a TOS. TOSs are bound by legal lexicon and it is not at all hard to find gay bondage imagery that is not porn (there are entire publications dedicated to this). As someone that deals with businesses a lot: PayPal is not playing by the rules and they can be held responsible in this case. You can try to use everyman arguments, but we're talking about a business, which is bound by its own legal documentation as well. They have no proof that a violation of the terms of service occurred, that's all that matters.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> What random people think is irrelevant when you're talking about a TOS. TOSs are bound by legal lexicon and it is not at all hard to find gay bondage imagery that is not porn (there are entire publications dedicated to this). As someone that deals with businesses a lot: PayPal is not playing by the rules and they can be held responsible in this case. You can try to use everyman arguments, but we're talking about a business, which is bound by its own legal documentation as well. They have no proof that a violation of the terms of service occurred, that's all that matters.



 All rules are subject to interpetation by the Staff of Paypal, therefore if "Gay Bondage" pops up in the comment box, they can reserve the right to freeze the account. You can fight it, but you can't win it.


----------



## Verin Asper (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> "Gay bondage" is not implicitly porn, semantically speaking, and PayPal has provided no proof that the image in question was. That's the bigger issue.



gay bondage automatically in my head goes "its porn" sure it could be done in a non porn like way...
but its fucking better safe than sorry specially how paypal said it cant be ACTUAL porno it seems so on top of that they didnt know it was a drawing WHICH would then make it allowed.

Thats what paypal was thinking "Better safe than sorry" but of course generic furfags cant think that cause its probably was porn.

now proceed to find me a picture involving bondage that doesnt have the mature or adult tag


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> now proceed to find me a picture involving bondage that doesnt have the mature or adult tag



It can still be mature and not be legally definable as porn. It's a fairly common theme to do in a non-pornographic fashion as well, like so: http://husz.deviantart.com/art/Zip-Drive-116345625


----------



## Verin Asper (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> What random people think is irrelevant when you're talking about a TOS. TOSs are bound by legal lexicon and it is not at all hard to find gay bondage imagery that is not porn (there are entire publications dedicated to this). As someone that deals with businesses a lot: PayPal is not playing by the rules and they can be held responsible in this case. You can try to use everyman arguments, but we're talking about a business, which is bound by its own legal documentation as well. They have no proof that a violation of the terms of service occurred, that's all that matters.



Then it doesnt matter what you say either cause you arent the person who gets paid by paypal who probably doesnt know that there is such thing as non pornographic bondage... whom's own interpretation of the rules differes from his fellow employees
really can you stop to think fully instead of just your point of view?



thorndraco said:


> It can still be mature and not be legally  definable as porn. It's a fairly common theme to do in a  non-pornographic fashion as well, like so: http://husz.deviantart.com/art/Zip-Drive-116345625



ok, I'll give you that...
now tell me do you think a random employee of paypal know that


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> All rules are subject to interpetation by the Staff of Paypal, therefore if "Gay Bondage" pops up in the comment box, they can reserve the right to freeze the account. You can fight it, but you can't win it.



That's the exact issue I take. It's a financial institution, they have to provide proof and barring that are legally obligated to allow you access to your assets. They don't play by the rules because they know that people will rarely legally contest it.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> Then it doesnt matter what you say either cause you arent the person who gets paid by paypal who probably doesnt know that there is such thing as non pornographic bondage... whom's own interpretation of the rules differes from his fellow employees
> really can you stop to think fully instead of just your point of view?



I think about this stuff very thoroughly. I use these exact lines of argument to pressure businesses to overturn decisions all the time and it's very effective. PayPal is one of the few businesses that flies in the face of legality on this one.



Crysix Fousen said:


> ok, I'll give you that...
> now tell me do you think a random employee of paypal know that



Doesn't matter if they do or not, they flagged the account, that's not the problem. The real problem is that they are not letting her contest it after the fact and the best answers they can give her are "might"s and "maybe"s.


----------



## Eva (Nov 23, 2011)

I think you guys are missing the point as to why the payment marked "gay bondage" got paypal's panties in a bunch.


That payment option was to receive a download of a gay bondage image Lillium made for Pink Pepper.
Meaning she sold porn, not offered her services.

This seems to be the key information everyone is skipping over.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Eva said:


> I think you guys are missing the point as to why the payment marked "gay bondage" got paypal's panties in a bunch.
> 
> 
> That payment option was to receive a download of a gay bondage image Lillium made for Pink Pepper.
> ...



Unless what Lillium has been saying this entire time has changed that's not true. It was a commission, that was cleared up earlier.

The point that's being missed here is PayPal's lack of proof. Overall in general... FA not FA, porn not porn. They've frozen her account and have, as of yet, been unable to provide any proof that she has violated the TOS and yet will not do anything to overturn the decision.


----------



## Eva (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> Unless what Lillium has been saying this entire time has changed that's not true. It was a commission, that was cleared up earlier.
> 
> The point that's being missed here is PayPal's lack of proof. Overall in general... FA not FA, porn not porn. They've frozen her account and have, as of yet, been unable to provide any proof that she has violated the TOS and yet will not do anything to overturn the decision.



I've been watching her account for quite awhile and I read her journals about paypal the moment she posted them.
I could have sworn she said that payment was for a Pink Pepper download.


----------



## kitsunekoneko (Nov 23, 2011)

Eva said:


> I think you guys are missing the point as to why the payment marked "gay bondage" got paypal's panties in a bunch.
> 
> 
> That payment option was to receive a download of a gay bondage image Lillium made for Pink Pepper.
> ...



Completely true.



It kinda bothers me that PayPal doesn't have any proof. They assumed, like most people would, Gay Bondage = Porn (please, let's not dig down on this anymore, I already understand that people will assume this) but the thing is, they have absolutely no actual proof - not the picture, or anything. Although it is kinda obvious that it was porn, it seems like they should have a real standing. (I am not surprised that PayPal would do this, though, because they seem to be very keen on freezing accounts already.)
What I mean is, if you see a tough-looking guy walking through a dark street, does that make him a burglar? Okay, maybe if he is dressed very darkly and seems kinda suspicious, you could assume so and want to stay away from him. But you don't know if he is a burglar, because you have nothing to prove it.
...I think you get the point
It just concerns me that PayPal can make assumptions and freeze accounts that way.


But anyway, in this case, it doesn't matter, because whatsherface WAS selling porn, right? Because if so, what I just said doesn't really apply to this, it was just a thought.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Eva said:


> I've been watching her account for quite awhile and I read her journals about paypal the moment she posted them.
> I could have sworn she said that payment was for a Pink Pepper download.



She said it was a commission in the forum here to correct my misinterpretation about it being a DVD sale. I don't think she actually states what it was for in the journal.


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> it is not at all hard to find gay bondage imagery that is not porn



I hope you're trolling and not really this stupid
http://i43.tinypic.com/2zyzs7k.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2emg0u8.jpg


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

kitsunekoneko said:


> But anyway, in this case, it doesn't matter, because whatsherface WAS selling porn. What I just said doesn't really apply to this, it was just a thought.



Whether she was or not PayPal is still obliged to prove it. It works the same way in court, except a court would be more likely to provide evidence.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I hope you're trolling and not really this stupid
> http://i43.tinypic.com/2zyzs7k.jpg
> http://i40.tinypic.com/2emg0u8.jpg



Hey, I was thinking the same about you, how about that! 

I like how your second screen cap further proves my point by containing only one porn pic. Good job there. I'm guessing you don't know what is legally definable as porn.


----------



## Eva (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> She said it was a commission in the forum here to correct my misinterpretation about it being a DVD sale. I don't think she actually states what it was for in the journal.


yeah but from her original journal posts I could have sworn she said that payment was for a Pink Pepper download.
Said journal is gone now.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> That's the exact issue I take. It's a financial institution, they have to provide proof and barring that are legally obligated to allow you access to your assets. They don't play by the rules because they know that people will rarely legally contest it.



What kind of financial institution and from which law are you specifically quoting?
Because paypal is NOT A BANK.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

kitsunekoneko said:


> Completely true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's their business. Any assumptions, fair, Objective, subjective or not, can be used to enforce the rules despite what you may think. 

Anything deciding whether "Gay Bondage" is porn or not is irrelevant at this point.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Eva said:


> yeah but from her original journal posts I could have sworn she said that payment was for a Pink Pepper download.
> Said journal is gone now.



PayPal wouldn't have any way of knowing that either, besides, PP does sales through its site, not individual artist's PayPal accounts.


----------



## kitsunekoneko (Nov 23, 2011)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> It's their business. Any assumptions, fair, Objective, subjective or not, can be used to enforce the rules despite what you may think.
> 
> Anything deciding whether "Gay Bondage" is porn or not is irrelevant at this point.



I see.
Still seems like a court case will emerge from it sooner or later, though



thorndraco said:


> Whether she was or not PayPal is still obliged to prove it. It works the same way in court, except a court would be more likely to provide evidence.



Didn't I just imply that
Like, a lot?
Yes I did.
That was the whole point of my post, anyway.



So, could PayPal be penalized for this...?


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

kitsunekoneko said:


> I see.
> Still seems like a court case will emerge from it sooner or later, though




I doubt it, but let's put the whole "Is it porn or not" thing to rest.


----------



## Aetius (Nov 23, 2011)

kitsunekoneko said:


> So, could PayPal be penalized for this...?



No.


----------



## Eva (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> PayPal wouldn't have any way of knowing that either, besides, PP does sales through its site, not individual artist's PayPal accounts.



Well... she DID post up the screenshots in her journal from her subdomain on PP.
Paypal knows her FA, they even linked it in one of her screenshots so they could possibly view her recent journal.

On top of that you can see  a slice of the bondage artwork in a group package sale on PP if paypal was at all smart enough to visit the main PP website from her linked subdomain images.
And you can find it on her gallery as well.



I'll be honest, I have no idea how PP manages to get away with using paypal if paypal doesn't allow the sale of porn.


----------



## kitsunekoneko (Nov 23, 2011)

Crusader Mike said:


> No.


Ouch.



Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> I doubt it, but let's put the whole "Is it porn or not" thing to rest.


I thought I left that case already... but alright.


Oh well. It's not a problem for me, since I don't draw porn .3. Commissioners should be more careful... or something.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 23, 2011)

kitsunekoneko said:


> Oh well. It's not a problem for me, since I don't draw porn .3. Commissioners should be more careful... or something.




It's more of a wording thing than anything else. If you put something explicit in the comments section, there will be punishment from Paypal. Furry or not.
People have to be aware of what they put into that that can be deemed as Explicit.


----------



## foxystallion (Nov 23, 2011)

There is an adult section on eBay (you can enter it by searching for adult art) , and PayPal does participate in payments for these drawn or painted adult images, and has done so for a few years.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> What kind of financial institution and from which law are you specifically quoting?
> Because paypal is NOT A BANK.



You know what, I'll concede on that, simply because the laws are so different from state to state and I don't want to spend all day digging through legal documentation just to make a point.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> Hey, I was thinking the same about you, how about that!
> 
> I like how your second screen cap further proves my point by containing only one porn pic. Good job there. I'm guessing you don't know what is legally definable as porn.




Sorry but I count five. I know for a fact 3 are actual pornos found on xnxx and the other two are pictures of porn you can find floating around.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

foxystallion said:


> There is an adult section on eBay (you can enter it by searching for adult art) , and PayPal does participate in payments for these drawn or painted adult images, and has done so for a few years.



The US does. Not sure what goes on for international because it varies.


----------



## thorndraco (Nov 23, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Sorry but I count five. I know for a fact 3 are actual pornos found on xnxx and the other two are pictures of porn you can find floating around.



Great, but the images themselves other than the one that is blacked out aren't and my only point was that there is non-pornographic imagery of "gay bondage". There are non-pornographic fetish publications where it is a common theme. He's trying to use proof that there is porn to some how try to say there is only porn, which is a huge logical fallacy.


----------



## Tantroo_McNally (Nov 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> I strongly encourage people to look for alternative payment processors, such as Alertpay or Moneybroker. The former is a service similar to Paypal, and the later also has those options (and is primarily used by online stores for e-commerce, such as GamersGate.com). Also, Google Checkout allows you to edit and create items on the fly. I strongly encourage people explore these alternatives (and any others that may come up) to use in addition to Paypal.



It's ironic you'd you "AlertPay" as an example of a recommended alternative when they were the company that pretty much shafted FA a year or too ago isn't it? I'd suggest Dwolla myself, these other "alternatives" are just more of the same. Paying fees up the ass so people with credit cards can go on free air flights for your hard work. I always wonder why giving money to the poor is communist but paying fees to credit cards so the money can be redistributed to reward points isn't communist.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

Tantroo_McNally said:


> It's ironic you'd you "AlertPay" as an example of a recommended alternative when they were the company that pretty much shafted FA a year or too ago isn't it? I'd suggest Dwolla myself, these other "alternatives" are just more of the same. Paying fees up the ass so people with credit cards can go on free air flights for your hard work. I always wonder why giving money to the poor is communist but paying fees to credit cards so the money can be redistributed to reward points isn't communist.



I'm not happy about fees, but we're hardly in a position to complain when all those other pesky taxes and such aren't paid by those doing commissions. Then people are doing art raffles which are considered lottery tickets and are illegal Paypal transactions. I'm pretty much aware this post can be considered a strawman, but I am tired of the "Woe is me" how unfair the paypal and other sites are for the sake of convenience of getting my money faster or from people in other countries. You know who gets the real end of the shit stick? Freelancers that do it legitimately and do it right where they have to account for their medical expenses, paying into social security and taxes. Because you're not under an employer you can expect your deduction to be almost half the amount you make to pay into those things.

I think Paypal who is sending your money and has some pretty good consumer protection from scam sellers is not charging that bad of a fee considering those liabilities. I've had to deal with nightmare sellers on ebay, guess what? Paypal refunded my money.

It should also be noted that if someone read the paypal transactions being used by the OP, they DO actually get their money (180 days) but the account will be closed permanently (at this point).


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> Hey, I was thinking the same about you, how about that!
> 
> I like how your second screen cap further proves my point by containing only one porn pic. Good job there. I'm guessing you don't know what is legally definable as porn.


Imagesearch is set to moderate

want me to turn it off? 

EDIT: I turned it off for ya 
http://i41.tinypic.com/lflug.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/m9amx2.jpg

I also searched something that is 100% not sexual at all. .. catnip!
I set safesearch off and.. oh my god.. wait.. what..
holy shit. THERE IS NOTHING ADULT OR MATURE.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

thorndraco said:


> You know what, I'll concede on that, simply because the laws are so different from state to state and I don't want to spend all day digging through legal documentation just to make a point.



Not only that, country to country. Did you notice the screencap of the transaction that got her suspended?

http://www.lillium.pink-pepper.net/paypal01.png

It's a UK buyer - if you look at the email. So that sets in a completely new set of rules due to the buyer being international and not having the same rules as selling within the US.

I'm curious if the buyer got suspended because it probably violated the UK side of paypal and resulted in the suspension of the person selling the product to the buyer.


----------



## johnny (Nov 23, 2011)

Fucking PayPal. I hate them now. >_<


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Not only that, country to country. Did you notice the screencap of the transaction that got her suspended?
> 
> http://www.lillium.pink-pepper.net/paypal01.png
> 
> ...



No. I know someone who has used Paypal to sell porno of themselves & paypal booted them off. It's Paypal in general, not countries.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Nov 23, 2011)

johnny said:


> Fucking PayPal. I hate them now. >_<




Cuz they haz rulez and people didnt adhere to them? FURSECUTION!


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Nov 23, 2011)

Yeah, it started because some people saw her post and apparently only read the part of it that mentioned FA. Since that wasn't even a major part of her problem, it is weird that they'd latch on to it and start panicking like they did, but since people reposted what they read from other people, the game of telephone escalated into this whole "Anyone who types the letter F next to the letter A in their PayPal payment will be banned" nonsense, when this is actually just another case of a major corporation trying to stick it to an innocent victim to assert their power or whatever they want to call it. The only one at fault in this is PayPal for not following their own rules.


----------



## Calemeyr (Nov 23, 2011)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> ...when this is actually just another case of a major corporation trying to stick it to an innocent victim to assert their power or whatever they want to call it. The only one at fault in this is PayPal for not following their own rules.



??? Conspiracy theory much?

Paypal is not out to get you. They'll lose revenue if it happened.


----------



## CannonFodder (Nov 23, 2011)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> Yeah, it started because some people saw her post and apparently only read the part of it that mentioned FA. Since that wasn't even a major part of her problem, it is weird that they'd latch on to it and start panicking like they did, but since people reposted what they read from other people, the game of telephone escalated into this whole "Anyone who types the letter F next to the letter A in their PayPal payment will be banned" nonsense, when this is actually just another case of a major corporation trying to stick it to an innocent victim to assert their power or whatever they want to call it. The only one at fault in this is PayPal for not following their own rules.


I've said this several times, but a popular artists' watchers are like their attack dogs.  The vast majority won't care, but a few of them will take what the artist says and run with it to absurd levels.  A ton of the major drama in the past has been because someone popular posts a journal and the few watchers flip out.  Tens of thousands of watchers translates to thousand of furries flipping out with have a chain reaction resulting in even more furries flipping out which in turn causes drama.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> No. I know someone who has used Paypal to sell porno of themselves & paypal booted them off. It's Paypal in general, not countries.



Look, just because it happened to your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate, doesn't equate to "Paypal in general"
It's not that it doesn't happen where people have had suspended accounts, but rather I'm saying that because it's out of country it raises more flags than it would because those countries have tighter regulations.


----------



## BRN (Nov 23, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> I've said this several times, but a popular artists' watchers are like their attack dogs.  The vast majority won't care, but a few of them will take what the artist says and run with it to absurd levels.  A ton of the major drama in the past has been because someone popular posts a journal and the few watchers flip out.  Tens of thousands of watchers translates to thousand of furries flipping out with have a chain reaction resulting in even more furries flipping out which in turn causes drama.



http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2927580/
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2931193/


I don't think they're so much the artist's attack dogs, as they are an overly offensive_ voluntary defense _of them. Crazy world.


----------



## Devious Bane (Nov 23, 2011)

SIX said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2927580/
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2931193/
> 
> 
> I don't think they're so much the artist's attack dogs, as they are an overly offensive_ voluntary defense _of them. Crazy world.


"But It forces you to draw safe art, that Is the challenge i want to combat."
I think it's just a bunch of furries.


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

Clayton said:


> the user stated they didnt violate paypal's TOS by using their services for pornographic content
> in one of the "proof" screencaps, there was "gay bondage" in the paypal transaction subject header.
> 
> haahhahaah



You should go back and read the entire journal again, Clayton, because you've missed pretty much EVERYTHING, and are just being a straight up troll.

First, they claimed I was selling "hentai". They didn't say "pornography" and they actually haven't given me an exact reason since then.

Second, no one is still sure whether or not Artwork can be adult. Paypal says that's fine, then they say Paypal can't be associated with my account if I have adult art posted, then they say "digital artwork isn't okay." So is artwork okay, or not? I was only basing my confused "I don't think I violated anything" about THEIR OWN admission that adult artwork is OK to sell.

Lastly, their claim that I violated their terms in 2005 was bullshit, but I never fought it back then, because all I had to do was take an "AUP test" and then my account was re-instated. :/ If they hadn't had that, then I would have fought it and told them where to stick it.

Thanks for spreading false information about what I'm claiming.


----------



## Lillium (Nov 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Not only that, country to country. Did you notice the screencap of the transaction that got her suspended?
> 
> http://www.lillium.pink-pepper.net/paypal01.png
> 
> ...



Hmm, I haven't heard anything from the buyer about his account having been suspended (I've been in contact with him about this incident, so I think he would have mentioned it).


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 23, 2011)

Lillium said:


> You should go back and read the entire journal again, Clayton, because you've missed pretty much EVERYTHING, and are just being a straight up troll.
> 
> First, they claimed I was selling "hentai". They didn't say "pornography" and they actually haven't given me an exact reason since then.
> 
> ...




If you haven't called them, then you need to. You're going to get a live person and can actually talk with them. I've talked with Paypal several times and they were pretty prompt on explaining and resolving issues.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Nov 24, 2011)

Has anyone brought up the sheer stupidity of someone putting in the subject line of a Paypal transaction "Gay Bondage"?

I mean really, you think it's not going to set off flags with a professional financial company when something like that is popping up on their site?

They do have an image to maintain, and I'm sure people openly selling "POKEMON RAPE COMMISSION" isn't something they want to be known for.

How difficult is it to write "Commission fee" as the subject?  Or give someone a tally number "Commission 32"?


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 24, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Has anyone brought up the sheer stupidity of someone putting in the subject line of a Paypal transaction "Gay Bondage"?



lol I know and then they said taht Paypal lied and they weren't accepting $$ for porno


& shut the fuck up, Lillium. You're just upset that you were caught by Paypal. I'm not being a troll, I'm being blunt.
Quit being a fucking stuck up snob, your whiteknights will not back you forever

You accepted money for "gay bondage"


----------



## CannonFodder (Nov 24, 2011)

Clayton said:


> & shut the fuck up, Lillium. You're just upset that you were caught by Paypal. I'm not being a troll, I'm being blunt.
> Quit being a fucking stuck up snob, your whiteknights will not back you forever
> 
> You accepted money for "gay bondage"


^<generic "this" button is fucking up again>

Lillium just admit you messed up; from now on just tell your watchers, when you in all probability get a new paypal cause furries ban evade, to not put anything that would give away what the money is for.  Just tell them to put something like, "commissioned artwork" or something.  Is it really that hard to tell them to just put a generic subject?


----------



## Volkodav (Nov 24, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> ^<generic "this" button is fucking up again>
> 
> Lillium just admit you messed up; from now on just tell your watchers, when you in all probability get a new paypal cause furries ban evade, to not put anything that would give away what the money is for.  Just tell them to put something like, "commissioned artwork" or something.  Is it really that hard to tell them to just put a generic subject?



She already stated she's ban evading Paypal.. publicly, too.
It's only time before a *real* troll fucks her over for it.


----------



## CannonFodder (Nov 24, 2011)

Clayton said:


> She already stated she's ban evading Paypal.. publicly, too.
> *It's only time before a real troll fucks her over for it.*


Excuse me for a bit *smugface*


----------



## Arshes Nei (Nov 25, 2011)

Thread has served the purpose of squelching the rumor about just banning Paypal accounts with keywords like "FA" or "Furaffinity". 

The rest is for the users who have such accounts to learn their rights and take it up with Paypal


----------

