# Minors selling adult comissions



## dave hyena (Mar 11, 2007)

http://www.furaffinity.net/user/winglesschimera/ is under 18, a minor.

However, they are offering pornographical comissions, examine their comissions tab:



> "Adult" content (beyond nudity):
> You must take liability, and send me stick-figures
> S. male: 3$
> XT. male/female: 6$
> XU. Female/female: 15$



What does the law think of such a thing? What does FA think of such a thing?


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## missdavies (Mar 11, 2007)

well...I'm not sure what the law or FA thinks of it, but IMO I'm not sure if there is much that could actually be done about it.  Sure, you could ban him/her from the site, or give them a lecture/warning, but if they're bent on drawing stuff like that underage, then they will continue to do it and either post it somewhere else or do business behind the scenes, you know?  It's a tough call.  I'm really not sure what the best course of action would be.


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## capthavoc123 (Mar 11, 2007)

missdavies said:
			
		

> well...I'm not sure what the law or FA thinks of it, but IMO I'm not sure if there is much that could actually be done about it.  Sure, you could ban him/her from the site, or give them a lecture/warning, but if they're bent on drawing stuff like that underage, then they will continue to do it and either post it somewhere else or do business behind the scenes, you know?  It's a tough call.  I'm really not sure what the best course of action would be.


The point isn't stopping a minor from drawing pornographic art, the point is to protect FA from legal action.


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## dave hyena (Mar 11, 2007)

capthavoc123 said:
			
		

> The point isn't stopping a minor from drawing pornographic art, the point is to protect FA from legal action.



Yes. I am not familiar with the laws of New Jersey, but surely minors selling smut is at the very least, skirting very very very dodgy territory?


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## capthavoc123 (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm fairly certain it's against United States federal law for a minor to be in possession of pornographic material, regardless if they created it or not.


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## dave hyena (Mar 30, 2007)

Here:

http://www.furaffinity.net/user/inflamed-iron/

"Mature content: 50p extra"

we have another minor offering adult content in commisions.

What is FA's position on such things? It surely cannot be legal or it must start getting into dodgy territory when you have minors offering comissions for smut on FA.


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## blackrevan (Mar 30, 2007)

Its rather untrodden ground, usually its the adult doing the exploiting. You can have pornography as a minor, in most states, I don't think anyone caught with porn (outside of a school) would ever end up going to court, might be awkward for the parents though. That's a privacy law. 

Selling it however is a problem, I don't think the problem would be minors selling it, but it being sold to minors, that's both more likely to happen, and more likely to end in a lawsuit. I doubt this case has a president.


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## Wolfblade (Mar 30, 2007)

It isn't a matter of stopping a minor from doing what they're going to do.

It's a matter of not having this site involved with Minor + Porn in any way shape or form.

Sexually explicit communications between  an adult and a minor will usually land the adult in hot water, even if the minor initiated it, and sometimes even if the adult had no clue of the other person's age. It might not make sense or be right at all, but it can and has happened. 

FA is not interested in trying to stop something they couldn't possibly stop from happening. But they are interested in removing themselves from the equation entirely, and that is what they usually do when it comes to a Minor involved with adult material here on the site.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 30, 2007)

A bit troubling that this still wasn't addressed. :/ - I'm not referring to the time Dave made this post, but the fact he made this post a while back in the harassment forum and it was skipped over/ignored.


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## Visimar (Mar 31, 2007)

There needs to be something implemented so that the mature block/age settings not only prohibit viewing said rated material, but submitting them as well.


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## FuzzWolf (Apr 1, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> Here:
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/user/inflamed-iron/
> 
> ...



The other interesting thing about this particular case is that the person is based in the UK and the age of consent there is 16.  So, if he's not a minor in his home country, where does that leave an adult who commissions him from the US?  Hmm.

Fuzzy


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## RailRide (Apr 1, 2007)

FuzzWolf said:
			
		

> The other interesting thing about this particular case is that the person is based in the UK and the age of consent there is 16.Â Â So, if he's not a minor in his home country, where does that leave an adult who commissions him from the US?Â Â Hmm.
> 
> Fuzzy



I'd imagine it'd leave him wondering how to pay, since the artist is a minor he wouldn't have access to the means to accept credit cards, and Paypal would also be a non-starter, what with their policy of not doing business with adult material. Sending money orders to the UK would be an artform in itself, as the UK isn't part of the system that allows it to accept USPS international money orders, and I've yet to find a means of obtaining UK postal orders here. The couple of times I've bought auction items from the UK, I sent UK cash (from a currency exchange) using registered mail, which is the extra-secure end-to-end-paper-trail method)

---PCJ


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## Rhainor (Apr 2, 2007)

It's still not allowed on FA, due to legal reasons *partially* related to the FA server being located in the USA -- New Jersey to be precise (IIRC).

Allowing users *known* to be under 18 years old to view, upload, and/or offer commissions for artwork of a pornographic nature could result in FA being sued (at least)...which would be bad.


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## lupin-wolfe (Apr 2, 2007)

Yeh... FA could get screwed over something like this, and that's with just federal law... 
But I'l sure my wonder homestate of New Jersey would find a way to make it even worse... it's good at that... >.>


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## Vegex (Apr 2, 2007)

I would say ban him, I wouldn't want FA took down because of one person v___v


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## Blackwing Dragon (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't wanna come across as an ass, but it looks like some of the people in power are getting a little too lazy :-D.
I've had 2 trouble tickets open for 2-3 days now, myself >.>..wonder how long before they are reacted to :-D. Longest TT I had was 2-3 months I think before someone replied? Even then I had to show them?!LAWL:


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## dave hyena (Apr 2, 2007)

Vegex said:
			
		

> I would say ban him, I wouldn't want FA took down because of one person v___v



I don't think that is nessecery. There probably isn't any immediate risk of FA being shut down. 

But I think it is something that needs to be seen to for long term security.

Perhaps altering the commisions tab so that under 18's cannot offer them or adult ones, or putting in something to the TOS about udner 18's not being allowed to offer adult commisions or the like.



			
				FuzzWolf said:
			
		

> The other interesting thing about this particular case is that the person is based in the UK and the age of consent there is 16.Â Â So, if he's not a minor in his home country



They're still a minor for the purposes of adult materiel related laws. It counts as child pornography to take indecent photos of someone under 18 & You have to be 18 to possess and purchase pornographic materiels in England.


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## Vegex (Apr 2, 2007)

What about him posting adult artwork?


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## crabby_the_frog (Apr 2, 2007)

Underage + view mature = bad

Underage + post = just fine, but technically they cannot see their own work, and thus no replies to comments, no edits, no nothing.

Technically, the user should be allowed to sell whatever he/she wants, but to do so he/she would have to have the mature filter off, so TECHNICALLY... not allowed?

I immagine that to try to sell somethin, you'd need access to it. But having access makes for breakin the rules, so not allowed I guess.

It's tricky. I say that underage users selling smut is fine, but once they have their mature filter off, it isn't so fine.

EASY SOLUITION: disable the mature filters, thus making the things to be sold unaccessable. This will definately stop the people from selling.


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## Inflamed-Iron (Apr 2, 2007)

Just to set the record straight:

I already knew it was illegal to VIEW mature artwork when I'm underage.
I did not, however, know it was illegal to OFFER it.
The offers have been closed on my page, and won't be offered on Fur Affinity any longer until I'm 18.
Hopefully that is satisfactory.


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## Honeymane (Apr 2, 2007)

Question; what is there to stop people from lieing about their age?
Answer: nothing.

Even if you put an age barrier up, you will still have artists, who, by American laws, are underage.


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## Damaratus (Apr 2, 2007)

There's nothing to stop them, and FA is not liable in the case that people do, but if we find out the truth we are obligated to deal with things accordingly.


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Apr 3, 2007)

The simple fact that he had the adult filters turned off could be enough to do him in since he basically lied about his age.  Under Colorodo state law:

"(3) It shall be unlawful for any child falsely to represent to any person mentioned in subsection (1) or (2) of this section, or to his agent, that he is eighteen years of age or older, with the intent to procure any material set forth in subsection (1) of this section, or with the intent to procure his admission to any motion picture, show, or other presentation, as set forth in subsection (2) of this section." *

Whether or not a judge could interpret a law such as this to include the intent to sell is anyone's guess, but it's still considered a misdemenor.

FA wouldn't be in any sort of legal trouble because they have the filters and they have already stated in their TOS that A) the site is not for users under the age of 13 and B) that they cannot be held liable for a user who lies about their age to gain access to mature artwork. **

In short, the guilty party would only have a misdemenor on their record and FA would continue to go about it's business.

Citations:
* http://colorado-misdemeanor-defense.com/?page_id=213

** http://www.furaffinity.net/lm/tos/  (Disclaimer section)


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## Blackwing Dragon (Apr 3, 2007)

Summed Up : 

FA has a disapproval text up and a weak protection against minors being able to view porn. They, by themselves, are not.
But if one lies about their age and goes through the lengths of actually looking at porn here anyway, that is done by THEIR WILL - since measures were taken so they can't do that so easily.

Further, by exampling in text that FA does not abide by minors here for a good reason, FA is free of all individual responsibilities regarding minor offenders.

So, simply put - FA tries preventing them, but people still will look at porn..hence..


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## Almafeta (Apr 3, 2007)

FuzzWolf said:
			
		

> The other interesting thing about this particular case is that the person is based in the UK and the age of consent there is 16.Â Â So, if he's not a minor in his home country, where does that leave an adult who commissions him from the US?Â Â Hmm.
> 
> Fuzzy



Which also begs the question:  What happens if a person is a major in one country and a minor in another?


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## Blackwing Dragon (Apr 3, 2007)

Good point. Here, you become an adult when you are 18, but are still "disallowed" from gambling till you are 21 ...
Now, Iraq or one of those other weird blow you up countries have a funny law. You can screw when you're 12 or 14, except you have to marry that person first - something you have to be 18 for. so DURR.


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## dragonfan (Apr 13, 2007)

i believe minors selling porn is illegal because they are not old enough to do that.the 2 users that was stated should be locked out of mature and adult artwork.but a minor selling porn as commmissions is totally illegal that would put the underaged person thrown in prison or juvenline court to be sentenced and their FA page blocked by parents.i
would suggest the parents of their child that is sell adult work as commissions should be punished and their FA page should be blocked by parents because they should know about their child looking at porn.


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## amarimasi (Apr 14, 2007)

I really hope the original poster of this thread isn't the same person who tried to prosecute me for being several days under the age of 18. Because as far as I know, I wasn't harming anyone or anything, and in a few days his argument would've been void.


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## dracoicebane (Apr 16, 2007)

Yeah, I would like to rather crudely make a few points:


 I don't think anybody will be suing FA. What will they sue for? Woohoo! I own a furry smut site! The media coverage wouldn't be worth it.
 If you guys are going to quote laws, can you at least remember to quote the subsections? It's not much help to see "It's illegal to lie to certain people about your age" and not be given the passages that describe what people these are. Besides, you quoted a state law. If he's lying about his age, why wouldn't he lie about what state or country he lives in?
Laws are made for man, not man for laws. If someone is mature enough to professionally deal in mature artwork, I don't think there's any need to persecute them. It's not likely for the site to suffer from inaction unless the situation is extremely serious (ie. the mature content being traded in reality with real danger).


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## dragonfan (Apr 16, 2007)

dracoicebane said:
			
		

> Yeah, I would like to rather crudely make a few points:
> 
> 
> I don't think anybody will be suing FA. What will they sue for? Woohoo! I own a furry smut site! The media coverage wouldn't be worth it.
> ...



agreed on this


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## goat (Apr 16, 2007)

hell i say change ur age to 18 and its all ok buddy

you aint gonna go to jail, FA cant get in trouble cuz they had a clause, its all good.

and you can look at porn! go ahead and change it man


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## Tikara (Apr 20, 2007)

Hmm, this is also something that bothered me for a while.

I do agree on the topic of minors selling mature commisions, where it should be unallowed for those under the age of 18. 

But here's my question, what about drawing mature art with the idea of not making any profit, such as art trades, requests, no one in general but themselves, etc?

I draw mature artwork for myself (and sometimes close friends) wIf one sith no thought of making money off of it. To be truthful, I'm not comfortable doing commisions. Though I draw mature subjects, I admit I am underage for I have recently turned 16. Sure I'm legally still a minor. Sure the admins have already blocked me from viewing mature content on the site. Sure my parents know I draw things of a mature nature and that I post them on FurAffinity, but no one can really stop me from doing something I enjoy; drawing subjects, mature of not, to make others happy.



			
				crabby_the_frog said:
			
		

> Underage + post = just fine, but technically they cannot see their own work, and thus no replies to comments, no edits, no nothing.


Well, even though I am blocked from viewing mature content on FurAffinity, I still have my filter off just so I can view my own gallery. I personally feel I am mature enough to at least view my _own_ art, and that it's not right to block someone from viewing art they made with their own hands/paws. 

Basicly, my birthday is set to my original birth year (1991), but I keep mature filters off just so I can view my own art.

Yet, because of my recent blocking of posting mature art, I feel like I can't post my art anymore. My own way of expression.

But it has also given me new sight on these sort of topics.

My opinion on minors and adult art:
If one is underage but feels mature enough to post mature art that they themselves have created, then they should be allowed to.
If one is underage and looking at _others_ mature art, then they should not be allowed  to and should be blocked until they are of legal age _unless a parent or legal gaurdian gives them permission to and proves it to the FurAffinity admins and local law enforcers that permission has been granted_. (my own opinion)
If one is underage and they attempt to sell artwork of a mature nature for some sort of profit, then they should be unallowed by all means to continueand should be stopped.

That's my $0.02.

~Tikara the Mew


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## Arshes Nei (Apr 20, 2007)

Tikara said:
			
		

> Well, even though I am blocked from viewing mature content on FurAffinity, I still have my filter off just so I can view my own gallery. I personally feel I am mature enough to at least view my _own_ art, and that it's not right to block someone from viewing art they made with their own hands/paws.



You can view your own mature artwork at home. There is no reason to put it up on a site that says you're violating their Terms of Service if you do. So I really don't understand the argument here.


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## Tikara (Apr 20, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> You can view your own mature artwork at home. There is no reason to put it up on a site that says you're violating their Terms of Service if you do. So I really don't understand the argument here.


What about if you're looking for constructive critisim on your art? Proportions, anatomy, espressions, etc. That's also something to think about .


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## Arshes Nei (Apr 20, 2007)

Tikara said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can do this w/o the art being mature.


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## Honeymane (Apr 24, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Tikara said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and what if the art in question is mature? 

I may remind you that a good number of characters on character sheets are nude, and thus, mature artwork.

It's pretty difficult to get feed back on anatomy if you're not allowed to have nude figures.

I suppose logically you'd have to create a two part filter, one that blocks all adult artwork, but not mature and general, and one that blocks both, as it does now.


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## Dickie (Apr 24, 2007)

Honeymane said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Character refs can be done nude and still not be considered "mature," if you do them correctly. While, yes, there are some artists who, for one reason or another, will draw their character refs with their male characters fully erect (possibly to give an example of what proper genitalia looks like. Who knows?). I've seen other folks who, despite having adult material in their galleries, will still basically neuter their characters, drawing them nude, but just doing it in a more toony style by leaving the genitals out all together.

When you do a nude figure for an anatomy study, most folks don't go into all the detail of worrying about what's between the legs. Nude + Barbie Doll equipment = General rating.


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## lupin-wolfe (Apr 25, 2007)

Of course, if it's an honest-to-goodness question about anatomy, even more mature anatomy, it should be a-ok coming from a minor. I mean, should educational websites meant for teens take down their anatomical diagrams? Of course not, that's just silly.... and some are almost photo-realistic. This's art, and concidering this's a furry site, I doubt the anatomy will even be entirely human, at least in many cases. And what's more, the anatomy in question, unlike the diagrams on sex-ed sites, is actually drawn by the minor who's askin' about it. Ya don't wanna get involved in something like that, then that's fine... just _don't answer_ the question. See? Easy solution there.

And just because I've already opened my muzzle... No, I don't feel minors should be allowed to post adult art, including solo sexual situations. Muture art... well, you can guess my opinion on that, by now ^^;


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