# Need suggestions for new graphics card



## Ty Vulpine (Jul 9, 2009)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/TyVulpine/Error1-1.jpg

This has been showing up quite a bit whenever I run SL, and a friend that knows computers said it's due to a bad graphics card, and tomorrow I'm going to get a new one, but not sure what a good one to get will be.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 9, 2009)

Depending on your systems specs, you will most likely need a new PSU as well.

Whats your budget?


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## lilEmber (Jul 9, 2009)

Ati xfx 4890, baby. <3


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 9, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Depending on your systems specs, you will most likely need a new PSU as well.
> 
> Whats your budget?



Couple hundred. Probably about $300 max.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 9, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Ati xfx 4890, baby. <3



Two.



Ty Vulpine said:


> Couple hundred. Probably about $300 max.



ATI 4890 and a Corsair PSU (depending on your current system specs).

This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150359

and This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 9, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> ATI 4890 and a Corsair PSU (depending on your current system specs).



3.0 GB RAM.
300 GB memory
2.20 GHz processor
64-bit OS


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 9, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> ATI 4890 and a Corsair PSU (depending on your current system specs).
> 
> This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150359
> 
> and This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005





Ty Vulpine said:


> 3.0 GB RAM.
> 300 GB memory
> 2.20 GHz processor
> 64-bit OS



You can also get a http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150394
if you want to save a bit of money.


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## ToeClaws (Jul 9, 2009)

I'd say good recommendations so far.


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## Shino (Jul 10, 2009)

Despite the fact that I'm going against all the other reccommendations, whatever you get, get nVidia and not ATI.
Part personal prefrence and part past experience, I can't stand the way ATI cards perform in-game, and their catalyst software (last I checked) is poorly written and horribly bloated.

Also, most of my favorite games are optimized for the nVidia arcitecture and not ATI, and new nVidia cards have the PhysX chip.

I love AMD, I really do, but I still believe their purchase of ATI was a really sucky move.

Ok, I'm done ranting now. You can have your ATI-lovers thread back.


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## ToeClaws (Jul 10, 2009)

You have one very good point there Shino - the Catalyst software IS pretty damn bloated.  As for trouble in games though, I've not really had anymore or less with ATI than nVida throughout the years.  I've had a pretty even smattering of both cards, and don't really have a preference one way or the other.  The only oddity with ATI that I encountered of late is with my godless creation of a card, the AGP 3850HD.  To run without problems, lock-ups and general annoyance issues, I actually have to overclock it.  Ah well.  It was the fastest card I could get for the very dead AGP architecture.  I just need to upgrade sometime.


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## Shino (Jul 10, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> ...It was the fastest card I could get for the very dead AGP architecture...


Eh. My main tower still is only running a GeForce 7600 out of an AGP x8 slot. I've got a PCI-E 1.0 x16 slot (dual-slot 939 motherboard, one-of-a-kind), but I've been more focused on getting my tablet than upgrading my tower.

Still, I would reccommend one of the nVidia GTX series cards. One thing, though, certain manufacturers are better than others. Be careful what you buy, as one GTX 280 might not be equal to another GTX 280. I reccommend EVGA, ASUS, and XFX are good ones. Avoid ones like Sparkle, Gigabyte, Zotac, and MSI. PNY is a good middle road for budget performance.


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## ToeClaws (Jul 10, 2009)

Shino said:


> Eh. My main tower still is only running a GeForce 7600 out of an AGP x8 slot. I've got a PCI-E 1.0 x16 slot (dual-slot 939 motherboard, one-of-a-kind), but I've been more focused on getting my tablet than upgrading my tower.



Yeah, before the Radeon, I had a GeForce 7800 GS, but it was straining to run BioShock on max settings.  If I can't run a game with all the settings maxed out, then it's time for a new video card.   The HD3850 was a royal PAIN to get working though because ATI/AMD did not officially support the 3000 series on AGP, so to even work, it requires a hotfix driver.  Graciously though, AMD does release one unofficially.  It only works in XP (not sure about Vista, and no support in Linux/BSD... which sucks).  Power-wise though, the card is a brute - the difference in Bioshock was incredible - not a scrap of strain with the Radeon.



Shino said:


> Still, I would reccommend one of the nVidia GTX series cards. One thing, though, certain manufacturers are better than others. Be careful what you buy, as one GTX 280 might not be equal to another GTX 280. I reccommend EVGA, ASUS, and XFX are good ones. Avoid ones like Sparkle, Gigabyte, Zotac, and MSI. PNY is a good middle road for budget performance.



Agreed.  Sparkle... heh, yeah, bad company.  MSI is a bit of a gamble in that sometimes they turn out really good stuff, and sometimes it's complete garbage.  It's as if their lead engineer suffered severe head trauma and he has his good days and bad days when it comes to new designs.   Sapphire and HIS aren't too bad, and BFG does some pretty crazy over-clocked designs.


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## Runefox (Jul 10, 2009)

> Also, most of my favorite games are optimized for the nVidia arcitecture and not ATI


No they aren't - They paid for the logo and you fell for marketing FUD. It's like how Crysis has the Intel logo on it. Is it going to be faster on an Intel chip than the equivalent AMD chip? No. Not really. I play plenty of games with that "Whooooosh! (whisper)nVidia!" "The way it's meant to be played" logo on them and I don't have any performance nor graphical issues on my Radeon HD 4850. nVidia sponsors dev team. Person buys game. Sees nVidia logo. Buys nVidia card.



> and new nVidia cards have the PhysX chip.


No they don't. They run PhysX on their stream processors, which ATI cards have been proven to also be capable of. Pretty soon, OpenCL/DirectX 11 will remedy that one and render CUDA (the platform PhysX runs on with the nVidia cards) obsolete.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that avoiding _nVidia_ is a good idea. nVidia's control panel offers almost no ability to customize anything (not even which output to use) and is pretty unintuitive for me. Their old, pre-Vista drivers were definitely a lot better than the new Control Panel task-oriented style of doing things. At least with ATI, you have the option of disabling the Catalyst Control Center and grabbing ATI Tray Tools, which gives you insane control over your card, including fan speeds, advanced tweaks like texture support, multi-threading, etc along with the normal gamut of options like AA, AF and mipmapping. About the only advantage you get when using nVidia cards is that they can support CUDA and PhysX on the card - That and you get to pay a pretty penny for them, especially if you're going top-end. But that's a pretty techie reason. Also, AMD's releasing the specs for the cards so that open source drivers can be created for *NIX, which is a huge plus.

Then again, depending on where you look, you can grab a GTX 285 for about the same price as a Radeon HD 4890 and they're about on par. So in that case, it boils down to what sort of chipset your computer is running right now - AMD/Intel (Crossfire-capable) or NVidia (SLi). Not that it makes a huge difference, especially if you only have a single PCI-E slot, but matching up the chipsets can lessen any headaches that might occur when drivers clash.

Regardless as to which card you go for, you'll need to uninstall your graphics drivers before you can even think about installing that new card.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

Was at Best Buy today, and looked at cards, and saw that there was PCI and PCI Express, and didn't know which my computer has, so waiting til tomorrow to get it. I got home and opened the removable side panel of the tower, and it does have a PCI Express slot on the motherboard. If I get an Express card, will I have to attach any wires to that slot?


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## Shino (Jul 10, 2009)

Runefox said:


> No they aren't - They paid for the logo and you fell for marketing FUD.


Uh, no? I've run most of those games on comprable hardware with an ATI card powering the system and they slog along like someone put peanut butter in the motherboard. Maybe it was a bad card, but _every_ time I've worked with an ATI card, I've been dissapointed. Maybe I just have bad luck, but still...

Anywho, to each their own. I don't want to get into a flame war about this. I reccommend nVidia. You reccommend ATI. It's up to the buyer now.



Ty Vulpine said:


> Was at Best Buy today, and looked at cards, and saw that there was PCI and PCI Express, and didn't know which my computer has, so waiting til tomorrow to get it. I got home and opened the removable side panel of the tower, and it does have a PCI Express slot on the motherboard. If I get an Express card, will I have to attach any wires to that slot?


Ok, you're obviously not too familiar with hardware upgrades, so I'll break it down for you.

PCI: last-gen old connectivity standard. It's been around since the early days of GUI-based OSes. DO NOT WANT. Period.

AGP: last-gen's standard. Was good at the time, no longer useful.

PCI-Express: The sucessor to the AGP slot. Much higher performance.
PCI-Express 2.0: Upgrade to the PCI-E standard. Same physical connector, but better performance. This is what you want.

You need to check and see if your power supply will support your new card, though. I would highly reccommend when you go back into best buy, bring your tower with you, and bring the tower and the card up to the Geek Squad counter and ask if the two will work together. They shouldn't charge you anything for that. If you're not 100% confident in your abilities, it might not be a bad idea to pay the $40 (or whatever they're charging for it now) for them to put it in, cause at least if they mess up, it's their fault, not yours.

Oh, and sorry bout the double post.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Shino said:


> I reccommend nVidia. You reccommend ATI. It's up to the buyer now.



Truth
(*cough*Go ATI!*cough*)

Anyways, your choices are really between an ATI HD4870 1GB, ATI 4890 1GB, and an nVidia GTX280 1GB.

Do your homework, research (I recommend www.overclock.net for good info), and make your own decision.

Personal experience: <3 my Crossfire'd HD4850's.

EDIT: and to reiterate what Shino said and I mentioned earlier, MAKE SURE YOUR PSU IS NOT CRAP! Friend's SLI 9600 box just completely fried because he saved $10 and bought a shit PSU. Also killed his watercooling pump. Do NOT use a generic PSU, you WILL destroy shit.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

Shino said:


> Ok, you're obviously not too familiar with hardware upgrades, so I'll break it down for you.
> 
> PCI: last-gen old connectivity standard. It's been around since the early days of GUI-based OSes. DO NOT WANT. Period.
> 
> ...



The power supply should support the card, since the slot came with the tower when I bought it (haven't installed anything on the motherboard). But yeah, having them install would be the safer option for me.

PSU?


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> The power supply should support the card, since the slot came with the tower when I bought it (haven't installed anything on the motherboard). But yeah, having them install would be the safer option for me.



This is very VERY important. Please read this.

99.9% of the time, the PSU is not going to support it, even if it has the slot. What you need to know are three important things:

How many total watts the PSU supports
How many +12V rails the unit has
What AMPs each +12V rail is rated for.

PLEASE post these (they should be on the side of the PSU), and we'll let you know if it's sufficient. 

Rule of thumb: the heavier the PSU, the better. Also, if it's the same color as the case insides (gray steel) its no good. Generally speaking.

** PSU = Power Supply Unit. Same thing, less letters.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> This is very VERY important. Please read this.
> 
> 99.9% of the time, the PSU is not going to support it, even if it has the slot. What you need to know are three important things:
> 
> ...



I'm looking, but don't see them.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> I'm looking, but don't see them.



Should be a sticker with a chart like this:
http://www.overclockersclub.com/siteimages/articles/sigma_shark_635/7_thumb.jpg


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Should be a sticker with a chart like this:
> http://www.overclockersclub.com/siteimages/articles/sigma_shark_635/7_thumb.jpg



I see it now. Says...

Max output shall not exceed 250 watts

D.C OUTPUT:
+5v:::/25A , +12V:::/ 14A
+3.3V:::/ 18A , -12V:::/0.8A
+5VSB:::/2A

+5V & +3.3V SHALL NOT EXCEED 165W

+5W & 12V SHALL NOT EXCEED 215W

AC INPUT: 100-127V/6A
200-240V/4A


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> I see it now. Says...
> 
> Max output shall not exceed 250 watts
> 
> ...


Yeah... definitely not going to be able to push a video card. Video card alone can pull over 250W. You'll be needing a 500W card at minimum, and I highly recommend Corsair. I know its not the answer you want, but that would be the case.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Yeah... definitely not going to be able to push a video card. Video card alone can pull over 250W. You'll be needing a 500W card at minimum, and I highly recommend Corsair. I know its not the answer you want, but that would be the case.



A new PSU? Hmmm
Or how about just a whole new tower? (Albeit, the one I have is just 6 months old...)


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> A new PSU? Hmmm


Yeah, I meant 500W PSU... my brain is jumping all over the place. Long day...

Anyways, the following is still what I recommend:



ZentratheFox said:


> ATI 4890 and a Corsair PSU
> 
> This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150359
> 
> and This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005





ZentratheFox said:


> You can also get a http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150394
> if you want to save a bit of money.







Ty Vulpine said:


> Or how about just a whole new tower? (Albeit, the one I have is just 6 months old...)



Sorry to double post, but...

If you're looking at getting an entirely new system, your initial bid of $300 won't be able to get you anything close to what you're using now after those upgrades. Just FYI.  If you're starting out new with a larger budget, say $7-800ish, you'll exceed your performance with the upgrades.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Yeah, I meant 500W PSU... my brain is jumping all over the place. Long day...
> 
> Anyways, the following is still what I recommend:



I'll look around for PSU's...see what the best deal I can get is. Then would have to figure out how to switch out the current one without destroying the tower...or the motherboard...


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> I'll look around for PSU's...see what the best deal I can get is. Then would have to figure out how to switch out the current one without destroying the tower...or the motherboard...



I promise its not difficult at all. 

Check out youtube for instructional videos.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Sorry to double post, but...
> 
> If you're looking at getting an entirely new system, your initial bid of $300 won't be able to get you anything close to what you're using now after those upgrades. Just FYI.  If you're starting out new with a larger budget, say $7-800ish, you'll exceed your performance with the upgrades.



Yeah, was thinking $700-$800. But that'll take me at least 2 months to save for (exspensive it is around here...)


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Yeah, was thinking $700-$800. But that'll take me at least 2 months to save for (exspensive it is around here...)



Whenever you're ready, I can help spec out an entire computer for ya, with the newest technology at the time. :3

And if you're willing, this new computer, since you'll be building it, will be SO much better than the system you're using now.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Whenever you're ready, I can help spec out an entire computer for ya, with the newest technology at the time. :3
> 
> And if you're willing, this new computer, since you'll be building it, will be SO much better than the system you're using now.



BUILD???? I don't think so! I'm as computer illiterate as they come...I couldn't build a tower with two hands and a flashlight to save my life...


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 10, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> BUILD???? I don't think so! I'm as computer illiterate as they come...I couldn't build a tower with two hands and a flashlight to save my life...



Ahhh... I dunno how much a prebuilt gaming machine would cost.. I'll get back to ya.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 10, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Ahhh... I dunno how much a prebuilt gaming machine would cost.. I'll get back to ya.



About $700-$800 at Best Buy, maybe a bit more. But I just need something decent. I don't play too many computer games, just Second Life and Sid Meier's Railroads. The rest of the time is just for websurfing and emails.


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## Shino (Jul 11, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> About $700-$800 at Best Buy...


 Ok, let me save you some trouble here. The only reason you should be buying your parts at Best Buy is if you either really need it today, or if you're going to have the Geek Squad do it.
Otter than that, you shouldn't pay the overinflated prices. I've worked for Best Buy (in another lifetime) and know what the profit margin on components are.
You'll save a ton buying them online. (I reccommend NewEgg. Absoloutely awesome service and prices, and _really _fast shipping. Some people reccommend Tiger Direct, but I've had bad luck with them.)

Just take your time and do research. Or just get the combo these guys are reccommending.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 11, 2009)

Shino said:


> Ok, let me save you some trouble here. The only reason you should be buying your parts at Best Buy is if you either really need it today, or if you're going to have the Geek Squad do it.
> Otter than that, you shouldn't pay the overinflated prices. I've worked for Best Buy (in another lifetime) and know what the profit margin on components are.
> You'll save a ton buying them online. (I reccommend NewEgg. Absoloutely awesome service and prices, and _really _fast shipping. Some people reccommend Tiger Direct, but I've had bad luck with them.)
> 
> Just take your time and do research. Or just get the combo these guys are reccommending.



Thanks, I'll take that as a SUGGESTION, which is what I was asking for, not a "you must buy this, you must buy that!" order, kthxbai! I'll buy where and from whom I want. If I want to buy from Best Buy, that is my choice and not for you to criticize where I choose to buy a computer. (Don't mean to sound nasty, but it seems this thread is turning into more of people telling me what I must or must not buy, rather than offering suggestions.)


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## Shino (Jul 11, 2009)

o.0 Woah. Take it easy dude. Nobody's forcing anything on you. It _was_ a suggestion.

Besides, I'm not really sensing any hostility in the posts. I think you're reading too much into it. But to each their own, I guess. I've made my reccommendation. Have fun. I'll try not to slam the door on my way out.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 11, 2009)

Shino said:


> o.0 Woah. Take it easy dude. Nobody's forcing anything on you. It _was_ a suggestion.
> 
> Besides, I'm not really sensing any hostility in the posts. I think you're reading too much into it. But to each their own, I guess. I've made my reccommendation. Have fun. I'll try not to slam the door on my way out.



*Shrug* Didn't mean to sound rude...


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## Darkwing (Jul 11, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Thanks, I'll take that as a SUGGESTION, which is what I was asking for, not a "you must buy this, you must buy that!" order, kthxbai! I'll buy where and from whom I want. If I want to buy from Best Buy, that is my choice and not for you to criticize where I choose to buy a computer. (Don't mean to sound nasty, but it seems this thread is turning into more of people telling me what I must or must not buy, rather than offering suggestions.)



The same thing happens to me a lot with tech junkies :roll:

Just ask them a question, like, "What computer would you recommend to me that is around (something) dollars."

Try to make them understand how much money you really have in your budget to spend, and they will provide you with good answers, instead of pricey suggestions.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 11, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Try to make them understand how much money you really have in your budget to spend, and they will provide you with good answers



 Truth

Basically, just need your end goal, and your budget.

So far, you've got two good options. One: the upgrades previously listed. Two: buy an entirely new computer.

It's now up to you.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 12, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> The same thing happens to me a lot with tech junkies :roll:
> 
> Just ask them a question, like, "What computer would you recommend to me that is around (something) dollars."
> 
> Try to make them understand how much money you really have in your budget to spend, and they will provide you with good answers, instead of pricey suggestions.





Ty Vulpine said:


> Couple hundred. Probably about $300 max.




...


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## Runefox (Jul 12, 2009)

I honestly wouldn't recommend buying a new computer for the sake of getting a new video card unless you really need a new system and it comes with a good card already (and those kinds of systems typically range higher than $700-800). Companies like HP, Compaq, Dell, Gateway, etc etc usually try and cheap out on the power supply (and other parts) as much as they can, so grabbing that Radeon HD 4890 or GeForce GTX 285 will be a pain in the ass.

With those cards, your power supply will have to have special (either six-pin or eight-pin) PCI-E connectors in addition to the power requirements, since they require more power than the PCI-E slot can offer alone.

Since you're not really up on building/upgrading/working inside the computer in general, I'd actually recommend bringing your PC into a smaller PC shop. More often than not, you'll get people who are much more knowledgeable and personable than the commission-seekers at Best Buy/etc, and you'll likely get pricing closer to the online prices and recommendations that actually make sense. Or, at least, that's how it works here (Future Shop (Best Buy) typically charges about 1.5x-2x versus our local PC shops for any given part unless it's a sale). You might want to look into computer shops in your area to see what's available and see their pricing. Again, it's up to you whether or not you want to go to Best Buy, but one thing I will say that you should do is know your options.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 12, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I honestly wouldn't recommend buying a new computer for the sake of getting a new video card unless you really need a new system and it comes with a good card already (and those kinds of systems typically range higher than $700-800). Companies like HP, Compaq, Dell, Gateway, etc etc usually try and cheap out on the power supply (and other parts) as much as they can, so grabbing that Radeon HD 4890 or GeForce GTX 285 will be a pain in the ass.
> 
> With those cards, your power supply will have to have special (either six-pin or eight-pin) PCI-E connectors in addition to the power requirements, since they require more power than the PCI-E slot can offer alone.
> 
> Since you're not really up on building/upgrading/working inside the computer in general, I'd actually recommend bringing your PC into a smaller PC shop. More often than not, you'll get people who are much more knowledgeable and personable than the commission-seekers at Best Buy/etc, and you'll likely get pricing closer to the online prices and recommendations that actually make sense. Or, at least, that's how it works here (Future Shop (Best Buy) typically charges about 1.5x-2x versus our local PC shops for any given part unless it's a sale). You might want to look into computer shops in your area to see what's available and see their pricing. Again, it's up to you whether or not you want to go to Best Buy, but one thing I will say that you should do is know your options.



We do have a computer store (called The Computer Store), not sure if that's a company chain or just that one store down the road from me. Can go there, and check. Beyond that, all we have is Best Buy and CompUSA...


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## Runefox (Jul 12, 2009)

Wow, I guess it really is true that big business crushes small business. Around here, though, our small business shops reign supreme, and they tend to do a lot more than just sell and repair stuff, with on-site and repair contracts with a number of small and large businesses around town. Future Shop and Staples Business Depot have miniscule repair centres and relatively small selection of parts and peripherals, and the Geek Squad presence is almost nonexistent.

What a huge difference.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 12, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Wow, I guess it really is true that big business crushes small business. Around here, though, our small business shops reign supreme, and they tend to do a lot more than just sell and repair stuff, with on-site and repair contracts with a number of small and large businesses around town. Future Shop and Staples Business Depot have miniscule repair centres and relatively small selection of parts and peripherals, and the Geek Squad presence is almost nonexistent.
> 
> What a huge difference.



Living in the Washington DC area, most of the small businesses are long gone, and those that are still around (Giant Food grocery, solely Mid-Atlantic chain) are goin down the tubes.


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## Carenath (Jul 13, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> EDIT: and to reiterate what Shino said and I mentioned earlier, MAKE SURE YOUR PSU IS NOT CRAP! Friend's SLI 9600 box just completely fried because he saved $10 and bought a shit PSU. Also killed his watercooling pump. Do NOT use a generic PSU, you WILL destroy shit.





ZentratheFox said:


> 99.9% of the time, the PSU is not going to support it, even if it has the slot.


This is mainly because 99.9% of the time, people buy a 'brand-name' system from Dell or Compaq who are not known for including good quality PSU's

That being said.. 'brand-name' PSUs from companies like Corsair are not an automatic guarentee of greatness. Do your research before you jump on a PSU.



ZentratheFox said:


> Yeah... definitely not going to be able to push a video card. Video card alone can pull over 250W. You'll be needing a 500W card at minimum, and I highly recommend Corsair. I know its not the answer you want, but that would be the case.


250W just for a graphics card, and I thought Intel's processors were power-hungry 

OP, what brand of computer do you own? Dell in particular are notorious for using proprietary non-standard power supply units preventing you from just swapping out the PSU for a larger one. Bring your tower in with you when buying the power supply and ask them to check that it will fit, just in case.

When sizing up a power-supply, go for at least 750-1000W to give yourself some leg room, and get a certified 80-plus power supply.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 13, 2009)

Carenath said:


> When sizing up a power-supply, go for at least 750-1000W to give yourself some leg room, and get a certified 80-plus power supply.



Waaay overkill for his setup.

Unless more than one video card is being used, a ~550W 80+ unit should give him more than enough headroom.

Corsair VX550W would be the minimum, but I'd go up to the TX750W just for future expandibility.

Also, just to say, I've used all of the PSU's I recommend, and I can vouch for their robustness. My VX550W powered my crossfire rig for 8 months, while being loaded over its max. It now lives in my server. It's a Channel Well Technology unit, branded by Corsair. Good stuff.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 13, 2009)

Carenath said:


> OP, what brand of computer do you own?



An HP, and can honestly say, I'm starting to hate HPs...this is the second tower I've bought from HP, and it sucks as bad as the last one, I just hope the hard drive doesn't go kablooey like the last one did...


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> HP



Really? HP is one of the cookie-cutter brands that I'd normally recommend. In that case, you can probably count out the offerings of Compaq, too. Normally I'd recommend Lenovo in terms of reliability, but they aren't gaming rigs - They're business PC's without that kind of expansion. As much as I hate to suggest it, if you wanted to ditch the whole unit, you could grab an Alienware Aurora Torchbearer Edition, which comes stock with two Radeon HD 4850's and an Athlon X2 7750 Black Edition processor, which is one of the better available AMD dual-core CPU's and 4GB of RAM. While they aren't _much_ better than Dell, they'd be one of the few actually decent gaming-specific companies out there. But you'd need to order those online.


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## Carenath (Jul 13, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Unless more than one video card is being used, a ~550W 80+ unit should give him more than enough headroom.
> 
> Corsair VX550W would be the minimum, but I'd go up to the TX750W just for future expandibility.
> 
> Also, just to say, I've used all of the PSU's I recommend, and I can vouch for their robustness. My VX550W powered my crossfire rig for 8 months, while being loaded over its max. It now lives in my server. It's a Channel Well Technology unit, branded by Corsair. Good stuff.


I have a 700W unit in my server, I bought the larger PSU because I wanted the headroom as I planned to have a lot of hard drives in it. You're actually right, a 700W is overkill. But it does provide headroom.



Ty Vulpine said:


> An HP, and can honestly say, I'm starting to hate HPs...this is the second tower I've bought from HP, and it sucks as bad as the last one, I just hope the hard drive doesn't go kablooey like the last one did...


HP's are real hit-and-miss. Their DL300 series servers, are great, but expensive, their DV5 series laptops are pretty decent.

With HP though.. they also like proprietary power supplies.. just like Compaq.. so chances are, you cannot upgrade it, and in general 'cookie-cutter' PCs are cheaper to replace than upgrade anything more than a larger HDD or some extra memory in my experience.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 14, 2009)

Carenath said:


> With HP though.. they also like proprietary power supplies.. just like Compaq.. so chances are, you cannot upgrade it, and in general 'cookie-cutter' PCs are cheaper to replace than upgrade anything more than a larger HDD or some extra memory in my experience.



Actually, with the newer home-based PC's, HP/Compaq has been making use of ASUS motherboards, which have standard 20- or 24-pin power connectors, allowing for easy swapping of PSU's.

That said, if the OP could provide a model number, I could verify this...


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 14, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Actually, with the newer home-based PC's, HP/Compaq has been making use of ASUS motherboards, which have standard 20- or 24-pin power connectors, allowing for easy swapping of PSU's.
> 
> That said, if the OP could provide a model number, I could verify this...



a6600f is the model number.

I have looked at the PSU, and it is screwed into place, and I don't think I have a small enough screwdriver to fit the screws...


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> I have looked at the PSU, and it is screwed into place, and I don't think I have a small enough screwdriver to fit the screws...



I can't really think of any PSU that isn't screwed into place.

That said, chances are good that any HP uses an ASUS motherboard, since they have a long history of rebranding/customizing ASUS boards. However, they're typically the lowest end of the product line.

In this case, your a6600f uses a Foxconn MCP73M01H1, which was made specifically for HP and uses the nVidia MCP73 chipset, which includes the GeForce 7050 and the nVidia 630i northbridge. In other words, that's pretty entry-level; I'm not sure how well a high-performance GPU will run on such a chipset. For reference, HP/Compaq call the motherboard "Napa-GL8E".


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 14, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I can't really think of any PSU that isn't screwed into place.
> 
> That said, chances are good that any HP uses an ASUS motherboard, since they have a long history of rebranding/customizing ASUS boards. However, they're typically the lowest end of the product line.
> 
> In this case, your a6600f uses a Foxconn MCP73M01H1, which was made specifically for HP.



The tower did cost me $450 (plus tax), not including the 2-year protection plan....


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 14, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I can't really think of any PSU that isn't screwed into place.
> 
> That said, chances are good that any HP uses an ASUS motherboard, since they have a long history of rebranding/customizing ASUS boards. However, they're typically the lowest end of the product line.
> 
> In this case, your a6600f uses a Foxconn MCP73M01H1, which was made specifically for HP and uses the nVidia MCP73 chipset, which includes the GeForce 7050 and the nVidia 630i northbridge. In other words, that's pretty entry-level; I'm not sure how well a high-performance GPU will run on such a chipset. For reference, HP/Compaq call the motherboard "Napa-GL8E".



Thank you, you saved me from looking that up.

The fact of the matter is you don't need to spend oodles and gobs of money on this system. What you will need is to replace the power supply with something at least 500W (and a single +12V rail) like the Corsair VX550W (link), and add a decent mid-level video card, such as an ATI HD4770 (link).

This will save you a bit of money, especially since you will likely lose performance on a higher end card due to your existing setup not being "top of the line" as well.

The stuff I just linked will more than meet yer needs, without breaking the bank.


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## Carenath (Jul 14, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Actually, with the newer home-based PC's, HP/Compaq has been making use of ASUS motherboards, which have standard 20- or 24-pin power connectors, allowing for easy swapping of PSU's.
> 
> That said, if the OP could provide a model number, I could verify this...


It isnt the issue with the motherboard connector.. its more the issue of HP/Compaq & Dell using non-standard screw positions making it impossible to mount a standard PSU in the same case, as the screwholes just wont line up.



ZentratheFox said:


> Thank you, you saved me from looking that up.
> 
> The fact of the matter is you don't need to spend oodles and gobs of money on this system. What you will need is to replace the power supply with something at least 500W (and a single +12V rail) like the Corsair VX550W (link), and add a decent mid-level video card, such as an ATI HD4770 (link).
> 
> ...


Again, assuming the PSU will fit in he actual case, as I outlined above, then yes, this wouldnt seem like a bad choice.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2009)

Carenath said:


> It isnt the issue with the motherboard connector.. its more the issue of HP/Compaq & Dell using non-standard screw positions making it impossible to mount a standard PSU in the same case, as the screwholes just wont line up.


Clearly, sir, you haven't ever heard of a determined techie with a dremel.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 15, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Clearly, sir, you haven't ever heard of a determined techie with a dremel.



Psh, on a prebuilt case? Needle nosed pliers and determination.


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> Psh, on a prebuilt case? Needle nosed pliers and determination.



Needle-nose pliers?! Pah, I just shove the damned thing in and MAKE it fit!

On that note, at my old job, we letigimately used a hammer and chisel, too, along with heat guns, large, heavy-duty wire-cutters, etc, etc.


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## Carenath (Jul 15, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Clearly, sir, you haven't ever heard of a determined techie with a dremel.





ZentratheFox said:


> Psh, on a prebuilt case? Needle nosed pliers and determination.


I just never bothered with pre-built cases or systems. Open Standards FTW.

About the only thing I ever did that comes close.. was using a fan from an old PSU, driving it off the 12V rail and using it to cool my graphics card.

OP: It seems like you have your answers, let us know what you do, and how it turns out.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 17, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Needle-nose pliers?! Pah, I just shove the damned thing in and MAKE it fit!
> 
> On that note, at my old job, we letigimately used a hammer and chisel, too, along with heat guns, large, heavy-duty wire-cutters, etc, etc.



This made my day haha. Brilliant!


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## neokiva (Jul 22, 2009)

i recommend you go pci-e and go with either the geforce 8400 (what i have atm) or higher or the newest ati the radeon hd4890 (the current best ati card, but also most expensive) but if your just looking to play sl on its own then go for nvidia geforce 7600 gtx (card i had when i was still on agp 8x and worked quiet well on sl although it lagged massively on ultra graphics) or up. this is just is from my own expeirience for the majority of the cards mentioned when i was on my agp motherboard (msi 6700 so obscure that no updates existed for it)


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## Shino (Jul 23, 2009)

Guess what I've got!?!

Just installed a brand new nVidia GFX 260 into my tower to replace my 7600 AGP card. (yes, my mobo is dual-slotted.) and it is incredible! I'm amazed with the performance of a card that only cost me $129 off of NewEgg. Not to mention that the integrated PhysX chip does some incredible things in some of the games.

So yeah, I re-reccommend nVidia cards.

Oh, and Zentra, you have any intrest in the PNY GeForce 7600 GS AGP card I took out? I know you said you wanted my 939 stuff...


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## Raithah (Jul 23, 2009)

Not meaning to argue semantics, but when you say that PhysX is a [chip] ...

But on the topic of video cards, were I in the market for one, I would likely buy an nVidia card for that marvelous [CUDA] action. ATI has a similar API, but judging solely on the number of projects running on the former rather than the latter, the decision is fairly obvious.


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## Runefox (Jul 23, 2009)

Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you; I'm not. 



Shino said:


> Guess what I've got!?!
> 
> Just installed a brand new nVidia GFX 260 into my tower to replace my 7600 AGP card. (yes, my mobo is dual-slotted.) and it is incredible! I'm amazed with the performance of a card that only cost me $129 off of NewEgg. Not to mention that the integrated PhysX chip does some incredible things in some of the games.


You'd probably get a little more performance out of that if your motherboard wasn't dual-slotted; The PCI-E slot on dual-slot boards is slaved to the AGP 8x speed, which will limit the performance of higher-end cards. Also, nitpicking, it doesn't have a PhysX _chip_.



> So yeah, I re-reccommend nVidia cards.


You went from an old AGP mid-range nVidia to a new PCI-E mid-range nVidia with three generations in the difference.  That change is like going from a Radeon X1600 to a Radeon HD 4850 (~equivalents). You recommended nVidia cards before, anyway.

Re CUDA, yeah, nVidia has some things going for it there, but DX11's Compute Shader will standardize both to a single format, which when the time comes will make that perk obsolete.


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## ZentratheFox (Jul 23, 2009)

neokiva said:


> i recommend you go pci-e and go with either the geforce 8400 (what i have atm) or higher or the newest ati the radeon hd4890 (the current best ati card, but also most expensive) but if your just looking to play sl on its own then go for nvidia geforce 7600 gtx (card i had when i was still on agp 8x and worked quiet well on sl although it lagged massively on ultra graphics) or up. this is just is from my own expeirience for the majority of the cards mentioned when i was on my agp motherboard (msi 6700 so obscure that no updates existed for it)



8400 is a meh card at best. Its three generations behind, and there are many other cards that are in that price range that are significantly better.
If you want nVidia, get a 9600GT. At _minimum!_


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## neokiva (Jul 23, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> 8400 is a meh card at best. Its three generations behind, and there are many other cards that are in that price range that are significantly better.
> If you want nVidia, get a 9600GT. At _minimum!_


lol actually i dont have 300 dollars to spend on my pc although im pretty sure i have spent more than that on it this month lol the 8400 only was 60 dollars (rough conversion) and yeah i know atleast im not 5-6 gens behind ( anymore ) lol also i kinda went way over my budget this month hehe


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## Shino (Jul 23, 2009)

Runefox said:


> You'd probably get a little more performance out of that if your motherboard wasn't dual-slotted.


 Yeah, I know. It's only a PCI-E 1.0 slot. I got the overpowered card so that I can transfer it to my new compy when I do my next overhaul.



Runefox said:


> Also, nitpicking, it doesn't have a PhysX _chip_.


 Yeah, I know. I was just too excited to get my terminology right...



Runefox said:


> You went from an old AGP mid-range nVidia to a new PCI-E mid-range nVidia with three generations in the difference.  That change is like going from a Radeon X1600 to a Radeon HD 4850 (~equivalents). You recommended nVidia cards before, anyway.


 Yeah, I know. I've been meaning to upgrade for ages. The only reason I posted was to geek out over my new graphics card.


Runefox said:


> Re CUDA, yeah, nVidia has some things going for it there, but DX11's Compute Shader will standardize both to a single format, which when the time comes will make that perk obsolete.


 The DirectX 11 framework (especially on x64 Win7) is definitely a leap and a bound from DX10. I just wish my all my games wern't written for 9.0c...


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## neokiva (Jul 23, 2009)

all this reminds me of that red vs blue psa about technology 
as soon as you get the most kick ass gadget or pc part its already obsolete the moment you bought it.


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## Runefox (Jul 23, 2009)

Shino said:


> The DirectX 11 framework (especially on x64 Win7) is definitely a leap and a bound from DX10. I just wish my all my games wern't written for 9.0c...



That's the funny thing, even DX10 games are programmed to use DX9.0c. DX10 offers a downward-compatible DX9 pipeline so that DX10 shaders can be attached where available/required. So because of that, the extra performance DX10 offers over DX9 is limited because the software is still running the DX9 rendering pipeline to retain compatibility with older cards. With the release of Win7 shortly, I'm sure the state of hardware will be such that DX10-compatible hardware is present in all but entry-level consumer PC's (and even now the Intel GMA 4500-series is becoming popular and is DX10 compatible). Given that several generations of DX10 hardware has come and gone, I think it's time developers started releasing native DX10 games.

Still, DX11's Compute Shaders are independent of (though not exclusive from) gaming - They can be used for any GPGPU task, much like CUDA is today. Like ATI's Tessellation units, the ideas behind nVidia's CUDA API are being integrated into DX11. Both of those things together should be quite sex - Tessellation is awesome, and CUDA/GPGPU can be used for just about anything.


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## Ty Vulpine (Jul 23, 2009)

Y'all lost me....


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## Runefox (Jul 23, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Y'all lost me....



In future-land, you can use your video card (that thingy what makes 3D graphics go) to do other things like physics (that idea where things interact) or playing/converting movies (those pictures that move and sometimes have words).

... XD I'm sorry.


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## Carenath (Jul 23, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Y'all lost me....


DirectX is IIRC, an API for game devs to make use of the graphics hardware without needing to concern with weither a feature is available or not.
I dont know anything more about it myself.

World would be a better place, if people used OpenGL over DirectX, but then that's about as likely to happen as Windows going OpenSource.

So long as a card supports DirectX 10, which most current cards do, go with one of the suggestions in the thread and you'll be fine.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 7, 2009)

Okay, I bought a NVIDIA GEFORCE 9800 GT 1GB card and a 550 watt PSU. Had Geek Squad install the PSU, and I installed the card (not paying another $50 for them to do that!). Only problem now, is someone sends me a link, and I click on it, I get an error message from yahoomessenger.exe saying "There is no disk in the drive. Insert a disk in Drive E:"...


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## Runefox (Aug 7, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Okay, I bought a NVIDIA GEFORCE 9800 GT 1GB card and a 550 watt PSU. Had Geek Squad install the PSU, and I installed the card (not paying another $50 for them to do that!). Only problem now, is someone sends me a link, and I click on it, I get an error message from yahoomessenger.exe saying "There is no disk in the drive. Insert a disk in Drive E:"...



Unrelated. Is E: a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive? Just choose a different destination in the following dialogue, or open up YIM and find the preference for where YIM saves its downloaded files. I can't really point you accurately in that direction, since I don't have YIM installed.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 7, 2009)

Not sure, guess it is.


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## Runefox (Aug 7, 2009)

... You can see what E: is by going to My Computer and looking at the drive letters and what each is.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 7, 2009)

Runefox said:


> ... You can see what E: is by going to My Computer and looking at the drive letters and what each is.



Trying to. I'm at the Control Panel, but can't seem to find the Drive part...


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## Runefox (Aug 7, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Trying to. I'm at the Control Panel, but can't seem to find the Drive part...



... Nooooo, My Computer, not Control Panel.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 7, 2009)

Runefox said:


> ... Nooooo, My Computer, not Control Panel.


Okay, trying to find that. (Why does searching for things on a computer have to be so freakin hard??)

Edit: Found it. E is indeed the DVD Drive.


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## Runefox (Aug 7, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Okay, trying to find that. (Why does searching for things on a computer have to be so freakin hard??)



OK, let's try this a different way.

This is my desktop. It may look different than yours, but the basic premise is the same. The Start Menu, in this case that Windows logo in the bottom left corner, is something that's been more or less identical in layout since Windows XP. My computer's "name" is _Anthrichiru_. You will note there's a link on the desktop with that name - If you have something similar, you can just use that. However, you may not.

So let's take a look at the start menu. Notice that my computer's name shows up in one of the options here; In my case, I have it set up to display as a menu, but default, you can click on it. Click on it. Note that windows XP may simply show "My Computer" here, hence the terminology.

You'll see a window something like this, outlining the drives installed in your system (note that I name my hard drives after my story characters; Yours may be named, as well (HP-USER, ACER, etc)). Note that yours may look slightly different, however, the information displayed should be very similar. Notice the drive letters, their icons, and in the case of things which are not hard drives, their descriptions.

EDIT: OK.


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## jagdwolf (Aug 8, 2009)

check new egg for a tower/psu combo.  the new nvidia 200 series uses less power then the 88 or 98 series, but be careful some are just renamed cards.  do some research.  tomshardware.com has some pretty good articles including one that lists the best video cards for X dollars.  

Just remember, that you need to decided what your gonna do with your rig.  If your into hard core gaming, your current set up is not designed for that.  If your into high end graphics/photo editing, then I would say look at the 275 or 285 from nvidia...either bfg or asus.  so many choices, so first whats it for? thats a solid place to start.


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## Runefox (Aug 8, 2009)

He already grabbed a new video card and PSU.

Also, graphics/photo editing will be fine on an Intel GMA. You don't need graphical horsepower for that.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 8, 2009)

The graphics setup is 1440 by 900 pixels. I tried to go to a lower setting, and got a "Mode Not Supported" message and the screen went black for several seconds before it auto-adjusted back to the 1440 by 900 setting...


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## Runefox (Aug 8, 2009)

What lower setting did you try to go to?


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 8, 2009)

Runefox said:


> What lower setting did you try to go to?



900 by 600. Something to increase the font size. A bit too small (have to set zoom at 125% to have back to the way it was before)


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## Runefox (Aug 8, 2009)

Bear in mind that if you use an LCD monitor, you should always run it at its native resolution (1440x900 in this case, I suppose). The reason for this is that the pixels on an LCD don't ever move - They're always at 1440x900. Anything less has to be scaled up to that, and it doesn't always look right - You can get text that looks a little bigger at some points and smaller at others, jagged edges and general blurring as a result of running a lower resolution. You should stick with the zoom level if you need things to appear larger.

That said, it sounds like the refresh rate might be set too high, or that mode (900x600) isn't a standard mode and the monitor won't take it.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 8, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Bear in mind that if you use an LCD monitor, you should always run it at its native resolution (1440x900 in this case, I suppose). The reason for this is that the pixels on an LCD don't ever move - They're always at 1440x900. Anything less has to be scaled up to that, and it doesn't always look right - You can get text that looks a little bigger at some points and smaller at others, jagged edges and general blurring as a result of running a lower resolution. You should stick with the zoom level if you need things to appear larger.
> 
> That said, it sounds like the refresh rate might be set too high, or that mode (900x600) isn't a standard mode and the monitor won't take it.



I'm actually using an HDTV as the monitor (the old monitor developed a miscolor in the corner and it spread to about half the screen), so that may be why.


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## Pi (Aug 8, 2009)

You should use the VLB Hercules clone I have in my closet and connect it to an EGA CRT.


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 8, 2009)

Pi said:


> You should use the VLB Hercules clone I have in my closet and connect it to an EGA CRT.



Wow, only took you 86 posts to say something...you're slipping, Pi.


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## Runefox (Aug 8, 2009)

> I'm actually using an HDTV as the monitor (the old monitor developed a miscolor in the corner and it spread to about half the screen), so that may be why.


HDTV's usually expect very specific resolutions - 720x480, 1280x720, and 1920x1080 being the most popular (480p/i, 720p/i, and 1080p/i respectively). I suppose 1440x900 being WSXGA is Close Enough, but 900x600 is completely out of the ballpark in terms of what it expects to have to display. I've never actually heard of 900x600 as a standard resolution, so I'm guessing the TV just went "WTF." and threw up the error.



Pi said:


> You should use the VLB Hercules clone I have in my closet and connect it to an EGA CRT.



Sweet ass! I wonder if it'll work in my 486?


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