# Noise and Extreme Experimental Music



## Mandragoras (Mar 30, 2017)

So, I've been listening to a lot of latter-day Sutcliffe Jügend lately—just got a copy of _Blue Rabbit_ in the mail and I'm currently digging into _Threnody for the Victims of Ignorance_—and I was wondering how many other furry noise fans there were on this forum and what kind of stuff y'all are into.

Maybe this is kind of basic bitch, but I really do love Prurient and Merzbow. Not all their work, by any means, as there is a lot of passable material in their enormous discographies, but when they hit home, they hit it out of the park.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Mar 30, 2017)

You should try danger music


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## Mandragoras (Mar 30, 2017)

I'm already reasonably familiar with it. A friend of mine actually made an electronic album based around an interpretation of a notorious danger music piece. Thank you for bringing it up, though; it's an interesting subject.


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## Ravofox (Apr 3, 2017)

Hmmm, do you like shoegaze (e.g my bloody valentine)? It's derived from noise but it has a strong emphasis on the 'wall of sound' and lyrics which blend into the music.


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## Mandragoras (Apr 3, 2017)

Ravofox said:


> Hmmm, do you like shoegaze (e.g my bloody valentine)? It's derived from noise but it has a strong emphasis on the 'wall of sound' and lyrics which blend into the music.


I do, although I feel like it's more accurate to characterise shoegaze as an outgrowth of a particular tendency in post-punk than as an outgrowth of noise: While precursors The Jesus and Mary Chain and bigger names like My Bloody Valentine were clearly influenced by industrial music and noise-rock, and some lesser-known shoegaze musicians had direct ties to the noise scene—Gary Mundy's surreal double career with Breathless and Ramleh springs to mind—the real roots of the style are in dreamier post-punk outfits like A.R. Kane, The Chameleons and The Cocteau Twins.

That may seem pedantic, I admit, but where bands are coming from often says a lot about them and where they're coming from. MBV started out as a second-rate goth-rock band back in the early '80s and came to that wild wall of sound through line-up changes, honing their skills, and taking away important lessons from bands like The Birthday Party and Sonic Youth about how to use feedback as an instrument. The heart of their work is almost pop-punk, but with this dark psychedelic sheen and a nasty little edge of dissonance, while the execution just piles on those trippy, borderline orchestral elements to the point of total sensory overload. It's great, I'm saying, but the noise aspect is more a side influence, in the way a lot of death metal bands borrow from hardcore or something.

You can also come to that place by accident, by turning a limitation into an aesthetic, as seems to be the case with a lot of atmospheric black metal bands. While not strictly a black metal band, Have a Nice Life's example is instructive: At their core, their musical style is basically doomy/punky DSBM in the vein of Lifelover with a more melodic vocal approach, but their vocals and percussion were drenched in reverb and other hazy effects early on to compensate for their cheap microphones and well-programmed but very fake-sounding drum machines. The result is, well, lo-fi doomgaze. Of course, there are plenty of more blatantly necro black metal acts who I could name that went down that road earlier, but this tangent was already a sorry excuse to ramble about how HANL sound like Lifelover and I am not going down the blackgaze rabbit-hole today, oh no.

...all that being said, there is an even more direct connection between noise and shoegaze than I already mentioned, and in fact one with the first band I mentioned here: "The Red Sea", the epic closing track to Bodychoke's _Five Prostitutes_. Bodychoke were a rather strange and formidable post-hardcore-ish outfit directly influenced by what MBV were doing at roughly the same time formed by none other than Kevin Tomkins and Paul Taylor—otherwise known as the beastly Sutcliffe Jügend. This track is perhaps the most overtly shoegazey thing in their catalogue, recorded live in the studio by Steve Albini of Big Black and _In Utero_ fame and incredibly intense. Apparently they were even more insane in front of an audience, but finding recordings of them outside the studio is difficult.

P.S. Sorry for the rambly reply. ^~^;


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## Ravofox (Apr 3, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> I do, although I feel like it's more accurate to characterise shoegaze as an outgrowth of a particular tendency in post-punk than as an outgrowth of noise: While precursors The Jesus and Mary Chain and bigger names like My Bloody Valentine were clearly influenced by industrial music and noise-rock, and some lesser-known shoegaze musicians had direct ties to the noise scene—Gary Mundy's surreal double career with Breathless and Ramleh springs to mind—the real roots of the style are in dreamier post-punk outfits like A.R. Kane, The Chameleons and The Cocteau Twins.
> 
> That may seem pedantic, I admit, but where bands are coming from often says a lot about them and where they're coming from. MBV started out as a second-rate goth-rock band back in the early '80s and came to that wild wall of sound through line-up changes, honing their skills, and taking away important lessons from bands like The Birthday Party and Sonic Youth about how to use feedback as an instrument. The heart of their work is almost pop-punk, but with this dark psychedelic sheen and a nasty little edge of dissonance, while the execution just piles on those trippy, borderline orchestral elements to the point of total sensory overload. It's great, I'm saying, but the noise aspect is more a side influence, in the way a lot of death metal bands borrow from hardcore or something.
> 
> ...



Haha, it's ok. I really like learning about the origins of certain genres. Something else which I've always thought probably had a strong influence on shoegaze but have failed to find anything concrete to support it was hardcore and post-hardcore. I find the sweeping fuzzy distortions in many shoegaze songs reminiscent of atmospheric hardcore riffs, but much softer. One link I have found, along with what you mentioned about Bodychoke, is that MBV was apparently influenced by Hüsker Dü (you've probably noticed I've posted one of their songs on here before), which slowly shifted from classic hardcore to a much more melodic sound throughout their existence. I'd be glad to know what you think


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## Mandragoras (Apr 4, 2017)

Ravofox said:


> Haha, it's ok. I really like learning about the origins of certain genres. Something else which I've always thought probably had a strong influence on shoegaze but have failed to find anything concrete to support it was hardcore and post-hardcore. I find the sweeping fuzzy distortions in many shoegaze songs reminiscent of atmospheric hardcore riffs, but much softer. One link I have found, along with what you mentioned about Bodychoke, is that MBV was apparently influenced by Hüsker Dü (you've probably noticed I've posted one of their songs on here before), which slowly shifted from classic hardcore to a much more melodic sound throughout their existence. I'd be glad to know what you think


Thanks!

That's an interesting connection that I don't think too many people make, but it's definitely there in a somewhat oblique way, particularly where shoegaze meets post-rock. There has always been this progressive, emotive end of hardcore where the angularity and angst gets channelled into longer, weirder songs, really from Black Flag on, although the fact that a lot of those bands were inspired to form from listening to Wire's _Pink Flag_ couldn't have hurt; but the crossover gets really obvious with early screamo bands like Snowing and Envy, where you've got these screamed, pained vocals alternating with muttered spoken word over these really gorgeous densely layered clean and echoed guitars played either really delicately or thrashed with reckless abandon. That, of course, is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to hardcore and grindcore's relationship with post rock—I could go on about that forever—but with shoegaze itself, the connection is subtler, and I think it's all about that shared desire to invoke and convey strong feelings without resorting to the obvious melodic clichés of "sad music" or "happy music." Post-hardcore and shoegaze both tend to be heavily modal in their lead melodies, for example.

Both also have a lot of crossover with melodic black metal aesthetics, particularly Swedish DSBM and weird French stuff like Alcest, which is where bands like Deafheaven enter the picture, being at once totally black metal, very emo, and extremely shoegazey. (And in all honesty, I would love to hear some frenzied tremolo picking with the MBV whammy bar/reverse reverb combo sometime. That would be fucking sick.)

Incidentally, I could tie this back into noise by noting that Justin Broadrick of Jesu fame not only founded Godflesh and was a core member of Napalm Death, but started out as a power electronics musician under the alias Final, which went on to evolve into one of the first isolationist ambient projects.


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## Ravofox (Apr 4, 2017)

Yeah, all rock genres featuring significant guitar distortions are intertwined. Punk, metal and psychedelic all originated largely from garage, and pretty much all alternative is a result of inbreeding between them all. It's a really fascinating subject!


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## Mandragoras (Apr 4, 2017)

That it is!

To steer things nominally back on topic, the relationship between the industrial noise tradition and heavy rock music, particularly psychedelia and metal, is always interesting to reflect on. Throbbing Gristle were former hippies heavily influenced by The Velvet Underground; Cabaret Voltaire covered The Seeds; William Bennett moonlighted in an obscure NWOBHM band; Merzbow composed _Venereology_ while drunk and listening to loads of death metal; Masonna plays psych-rock as Acid Eater; Prurient makes raw black metal as Ash Pool; the entire careers of Ramleh and Skullflower are basically "the interplay of noise torture and heavy psychedelia in miniature and at length." I suppose the logical answer is that extreme music is about catharsis and being overwhelmed and subsumed in the same way that ecstatic states of mind are. Noise is a drug, as it were.


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## lupi900 (Apr 8, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> So, I've been listening to a lot of latter-day Sutcliffe Jügend lately—just got a copy of _Blue Rabbit_ in the mail and I'm currently digging into _Threnody for the Victims of Ignorance_—and I was wondering how many other furry noise fans there were on this forum and what kind of stuff y'all are into.



Have you heard any Grunt, bizarre uproar & few others since you listen to SJ?.


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## Mandragoras (Apr 8, 2017)

lupi900 said:


> Have you heard any Grunt, bizarre uproar & few others since you listen to SJ?.


I'm aware of Bizarre Uproar, mostly through their splits and collaborations with Bastard Noise, although I feel like I could afford to get to know their work better. Mikko Aspa is a similar case, although for different reasons: What I've heard has seriously impressed me, but his aesthetics are frequently uncomfortable for me on a very personal level, so it's harder to get into him.


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## lajm (Apr 10, 2017)

do you lads enjoy Naked City?


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## Mandragoras (Apr 11, 2017)

Yes, I do! Although I have a friend who's way more into them. The fact that pretty much everyone in that band has a ridiculously deep and interesting back catalogue doesn't hurt in the slightest. I'm most familiar with Eye's work, honestly, but saying you really know John Zorn's work is like saying you know The Grateful Dead's work, which is to say, something of an act of hubris for all but the most obsessive. (See also: Merzbow, Klaus Schulze, Muslimgauze.)


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## Simo (Apr 11, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> That it is!
> 
> To steer things nominally back on topic, the relationship between the industrial noise tradition and heavy rock music, particularly psychedelia and metal, is always interesting to reflect on. Throbbing Gristle were former hippies heavily influenced by The Velvet Underground; Cabaret Voltaire covered The Seeds; William Bennett moonlighted in an obscure NWOBHM band; Merzbow composed _Venereology_ while drunk and listening to loads of death metal; Masonna plays psych-rock as Acid Eater; Prurient makes raw black metal as Ash Pool; the entire careers of Ramleh and Skullflower are basically "the interplay of noise torture and heavy psychedelia in miniature and at length." I suppose the logical answer is that extreme music is about catharsis and being overwhelmed and subsumed in the same way that ecstatic states of mind are. Noise is a drug, as it were.



Wow, somebody who knows about Throbbing Gristle! I very much like early industrial, and all the groups that spun off Throbbing Gristle: Psychic TV, Chris and Cosey, Coil. (Oddly, Genesis P. Orrige is the only 'rock' star I kissed on the lips, after a show...this is after he became he/she. An odd night!) I'll have to add more later, I love this sort of music, and the era...

Edit: Other bands that come to mind: Pere Ubu, Nurse With Wound...


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## Mandragoras (Apr 11, 2017)

Simo said:


> Wow, somebody who knows about Throbbing Gristle! I very much like early industrial, and all the groups that spun off Throbbing Gristle: Psychic TV, Chris and Cosey, Coil. (Oddly, Genesis P. Orrige is the only 'rock' star I kissed on the lips, after a show...this is after he became he/she. An odd night!) I'll have to add more later, I love this sort of music, and the era...
> 
> Edit: Other bands that come to mind: Pere Ubu, Nurse With Wound...


The post-TG diaspora and greater _England's Hidden Reverse_ circle is some seriously good shit. Coil and Nurse With Wound were my two biggest influences when I started making music, and to this day both are hugely influential on how I approach production and soundcraft—not to mention how Current 93's _Nature Unveiled_ and especially _Dogs Blood Rising_ kind of set the bar for what I thought of as "evil-sounding music" when I was a teenager, which had a major impact on how I approached metal later on.

God, '80s industrial cassette culture. I think that's my real nerd domain, more than post-punk or modern noise or extreme metal or really anything else.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2017)




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## Mandragoras (Apr 21, 2017)

lupi900 said:


>


Xenakis is cool. Applying architectural principles to musical composition is a really neat idea which I would like to see explored further.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> Xenakis is cool. Applying architectural principles to musical composition is a really neat idea which I would like to see explored further.



Same and love how his stuff sounds like 80's era Merzbow like persepolis. Despite being from the early 70's.


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## endroll (Jun 7, 2017)

man, it really depends but les rallizes denudes can make some pretty kick ass noise sometimes


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## lajm (Jun 23, 2017)

endroll said:


> man, it really depends but les rallizes denudes can make some pretty kick ass noise sometimes


LRD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>EVERYTHING


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## Pipistrele (Jun 23, 2017)

Don't know if electronic music counts, but there are some really damn good IDM projects that flirt with noise scene, like late-era Autechre and Blanck Mass. 
(Also, what is your opinion on Death Grips?)


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## Mandragoras (Jun 25, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> Don't know if electronic music counts, but there are some really damn good IDM projects that flirt with noise scene, like late-era Autechre and Blanck Mass.
> (Also, what is your opinion on Death Grips?)


Techno and IDM have an interesting relationship with noise music, but I don't feel entirely equipped to speak on the subject at the moment past recommending that everyone listen to more Perc. Autechre are also quite neat.

I rather enjoy Death Grips. I feel like a lot of their devotees oversell how outlandish their early work is, or rather misunderstand what makes it unique, but that doesn't detract from the fact that they are a remarkably potent creative unit.


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## endroll (Jul 30, 2017)

tinnitus-core


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## Mandragoras (Aug 1, 2017)

endroll said:


> tinnitus-core


Raster-Noton is a good label.


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## lajm (Aug 4, 2017)

endroll said:


> tinnitus-core


is2g dataplex fucking killed me the first time lmao


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## Mandragoras (Aug 11, 2017)

So I listened to Jason Crumer's _Ottoman Black_ yesterday. Wonderfully creepy album with some great, vivid, nasty sound design and conceptual stuff going on. I swear the sudden quiet bits hit ten times harder than the walls of noise. The closest comparison I have to it is maybe Consumer Electronics' string of comeback albums, but while the moods and production are similar the actual sounds and styles are very, very different.


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## lajm (Aug 13, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> So I listened to Jason Crumer's _Ottoman Black_ yesterday. Wonderfully creepy album with some great, vivid, nasty sound design and conceptual stuff going on. I swear the sudden quiet bits hit ten times harder than the walls of noise. The closest comparison I have to it is maybe Consumer Electronics' string of comeback albums, but while the moods and production are similar the actual sounds and styles are very, very different.


Sounds interesting, gonna check it out


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