# Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in freakout



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/...le/995112--parents-keep-child-s-gender-secret
Short version is a couple decided that since raising their boy has gotten negative attention because of the fact they let him dress and that how he wants, and cause of how he likes dressing as a girl and that, they decided that with their newest kid they won't reveal the kid's sex.  So that if Storm(the kid) decides to be girly or boyish while growing up, Storm will be able to chose what gender to be without people knowing what sex Storm was born with.  The reactions by media and people that know the couple is downright fucking ludicrous, ranging from, "They are bad parents who should have their children taken away" to one person saying, "someone should've taken a clothes hanger to the mom".


----------



## Azure (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Great.

Voting 1, moving on.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I think they're gonna fuck up their kid trying to make such a 'statement'. But that's just me, you know, wishing parents would do their best not to make their kid's lives hell.


----------



## Bloodshot_Eyes (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

That's fucking retarded... I would've loved to wear a dress as a kid. :<


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> I think they're gonna fuck up their kid trying to make such a 'statement'. But that's just me, you know, wishing parents would do their best not to make their kid's lives hell.


 Speaking from experience most parents try and do their best to raise their kids.


----------



## Iudicium_86 (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Gee, reminds me of another particular couple


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Iudicium_86 said:


> Gee, reminds me of another particular couple


 I don't know what this is from.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Speaking from experience most parents try and do their best to raise their kids.


 
Yes, they do. 

These aren't. Not even near.


----------



## Holsety (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Are you implying they _aren't_ bad parents?


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Holsety said:


> Are you implying they _aren't_ bad parents?


 The kids are being home schooled, so how would bullying or such happen when they grow up?


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Well, first off, this ISN'T the first time this kinda bullshit happened. Ah, some other couple a long time ago had a boy who had a little TOO much snipped during circumcision. It was suggested that they raise the boy as a girl, and they did. Dresses, dolls, etc. And for the longest time, they raised him as a girl. 

Well, they eventually told him the truth when he was old enough, and he more or less immediately switched to a male persona. He got a bit of surgery to get back some of his have-not, got married, and had a kid even (i think). 

And then he committed suicide. 

Oh, here's a couple links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2004/may/04051010

So yeah, bullying may be the least of the worries here.


----------



## Iudicium_86 (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> I don't know what this is from.


 
Ebony & Ivory form the show Rick & Steve: The Happiest Gay Couple in All The World
Basically, they're a lesbian couple who are extremely hyper PC. They had a baby but also refuse to instill any gender identity to the baby. Even going as far as to not even learn the gender _themselves_ so he or she can discover their identity as he/she gets older for his/herself.


----------



## theLight (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

They're obviously up to making a political point. They specifically mentioned to whatever reporter was writing down their story that they had a home-birth, which was pretty irrelevant relative to the information before and after the mention. Whatever though, not much anyone can do. It isn't really child abuse worthy of removing the parents, it's just hella embarrassing.  At the very least, the kids will have an interesting view on gender when they get older.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Well, first off, this ISN'T the first time this kinda bullshit happened. Ah, some other couple a long time ago had a boy who had a little TOO much snipped during circumcision. It was suggested that they raise the boy as a girl, and they did. Dresses, dolls, etc. And for the longest time, they raised him as a girl.
> 
> Well, they eventually told him the truth when he was old enough, and he more or less immediately switched to a male persona. He got a bit of surgery to get back some of his have-not, got married, and had a kid even (i think).
> 
> ...


 What's worse is the fact that accidents like that have been known to happen -_-


----------



## Holsety (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> The kids are being home schooled, so how would bullying or such happen when they grow up?


You don't need to factor in bullying to know that not telling your kid/anyone else their gender is going to lead to immense confusion and mental stress once reality hits. There is a huge difference between "You're a boy, but it's okay to wear dresses we still love you" and "Do you want to be a boy or a girl?"

The parents are being immature as shit.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> What's worse is the fact that accidents like that have been known to happen -_-


 
Accident? You raise someone as the opposite gender 15 years of their fucking life then go, "Oops! Sorry, you're actually a dude" and then he/she commits suicide and it's just an accident? No, you're being daft and trying to make an argument for irresponsibility under the guise of gender identity rights. The parents are wrong here, and though the kid shouldn't be taken away, I would not be surprised if he/she ended up emotionally fucked up.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Accident? You raise someone as the opposite gender 15 years of their fucking life then go, "Oops! Sorry, you're actually a dude" and then he/she commits suicide and it's just an accident?


 I meant how accidents like that circumcision cutting off his penis and that have been known to happen.


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Someday those kids will not home schooled. Someday they will need to go out into the world. Someday they are going to get more shit then you could possibly imagine. 

Brofact: A child wearing an article of clothing contrary to their physical gender does not constitute a statement about their gender identity. The proper response is "great, but you're not leaving the house in that."

EDIT: Also, someday that kid is going to need to use a public restroom by his/herself, and when that happens, he/she will be confused as *FUCK* (as will anyone that notices their choice... especially if it changes from time to time)


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> I meant how accidents like that circumcision cutting off his penis and that have been known to happen.


 
Oh. Well shit dude, clarify. I was about to get all RAEG-FROTH-FLAME on your ass. Hell, I think I did anyways.


----------



## Azure (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Oh western civilization, why do you still give kids the chop? What is our obsession with the removal of foreskin? Inb4 Kimmersets foreskin :V


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> Oh western civilization, why do you still give kids the chop? What is our obsession with the removal of foreskin? Inb4 *Kimmersets foreskin *:V


 
I just Googled that. Not sure why. And you know what? Only FAF showed up in the search results of 'Kimmerset's foreskin'. And you know, OF COURSE FAF would be the only source for the hunt for Kimmerset's foreskin. Why did I expect any different?


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Unsilenced said:


> Someday those kids will not home schooled. Someday they will need to go out into the world. Someday they are going to get more shit then you could possibly imagine.


 Which won't be for atleast another decade, I doubt society will be like current times by then.


CoyoteCaliente said:


> Oh. Well shit dude, clarify. I was about to get all RAEG-FROTH-FLAME on your ass. Hell, I think I did anyways.


 The sad thing is there have been stuff like this happening and still happen.
Also if a kid is born with both genitals they chop it off and call it a girl, sometimes even without parental consent under the guise of, "doing what is best for the child", even if they are wrong about the genetic sex.  Like if a genetic boy is accidentally is born with both, they will chop off the penis and call it.  The response years later by doctors if they were wrong about it is, "lol whoops".


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Which won't be for atleast another decade, I doubt society will be like current times by then.


 
^is blissfully ignorant

*edit* 

And besides, we all know the world is going to end on October 21st! or 2012. Whatev~


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> I just Googled that. Not sure why. And you know what? Only FAF showed up in the search results of 'Kimmerset's foreskin'. And you know, OF COURSE FAF would be the only source for the hunt for Kimmerset's foreskin. Why did I expect any different?


 
...

So? What the fuck is it? :I



CoyoteCaliente said:


> ^is blissfully ignorant



Communists took my this button, but yeah. This. 

Look at LGBT issues in 2000. Look at them now. 

*COOL PROGRESS BRO*


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Unsilenced said:


> ...
> 
> So? What the fuck is it? :I


 
I don't know! It's just been sig'd, and it pops up everywhere, and the fact that someone's foreskin is hanging around FAF is very discerning. D:


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

...

I would guess that maybe kimmerset is a user? And there was some incident/conversation/dramalulz about his foreskin? 

*shrug*


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Unsilenced said:


> Look at LGBT issues in 2000. Look at them now.
> 
> *COOL PROGRESS BRO*


 I think someone is forgetting the hell on earth era Bush era.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> I think someone is forgetting the hell on earth era Bush era.


 
Ohhhh right. Because rights for gays and dykes can be ENTIRELY set upon the shoulders of a single man who couldn't pronounce a full sentence, let alone partially rationalize a war.

You know, you seem like the kind of person who watches Fox News and just CUTS yourself in rage. :V


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> I think someone is forgetting the hell on earth era Bush era.


 
EVERYTHING'S GONNA BE DIFFERENT NOW THAT OBAMA'S IN CHARGE! WOO-HOOOO!

Except for, like, you know. Prop 8 passing?


----------



## Paul'o'fox (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I read this, I died. What the fuck society? I say let the child do what he wants.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Paul'o'fox said:


> I read this, I died. What the fuck society? I say let the child do what he wants.


 
This child is an infant. It doesn't want sexuality or a gender. It wants to suck on titties and shit itself, all the while making deceivingly cute baby noises.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Ohhhh right. Because rights for gays and dykes can be ENTIRELY set upon the shoulders of a single man who couldn't pronounce a full sentence, let alone partially rationalize a war.


 I'm saying that it was worse for glbt issues under the bush era than nowadays or the administration beforehand, cause of the fact that conservative "values" were almost religiously instilled in people.  Including anti-glbt beliefs, creation of anti-gay marriage laws, creation of national laws to prevent pro-glbt laws in the future, the majority of states banning gay marriage, etc.


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Paul'o'fox said:


> I read this, I died. What the fuck society? I say let the child do what hexe wants.


 
Gender neutral man!


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> I'm saying that it was worse for glbt issues under the bush era than nowadays or the administration beforehand, cause of the fact that conservative "values" were almost religiously instilled in people.  Including anti-glbt beliefs, creation of anti-gay marriage laws, creation of national laws to prevent pro-glbt laws in the future, introduction of prop 8, the majority of states banning gay marriage, etc.


 
So? A change in party-power (lol) from Conservative to Liberal is HARDLY going to speed these things up. It's like saying that this forest fire is going to be extinguished faster because the Fire Department switched nozzle types on the fire hose. The Conservatives are still THERE, they're just in the backseat, tis all.


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> I'm saying that it was worse for glbt issues under the bush era than nowadays or the administration beforehand, cause of the fact that conservative "values" were almost religiously instilled in people.  Including anti-glbt beliefs, creation of anti-gay marriage laws, creation of national laws to prevent pro-glbt laws in the future, the majority of states banning gay marriage, etc.


 
Because people's opinions change on a dime based on who's in power. 

"Oh look. Democrats are in power now. I suddenly just stopped hating gays and bought a Prius."


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> So? A change in party-power (lol) from Conservative to Liberal is HARDLY going to speed these things up. It's like saying that this forest fire is going to be extinguished faster because the Fire Department switched nozzle types on the fire hose. The Conservatives are still THERE, they're just in the backseat, tis all.


 Fire hose nozzle types effects spread and flow, which effects distance and what type of fires you want to put out, so terrible analogy.
I'd rather conservatives be in the backseat than to have the liberals tied up and shoved in the trunk while they're driving the car.


Unsilenced said:


> Because people's opinions change on a dime based on who's in power.
> 
> "Oh look. Democrats are in power now. I suddenly just stopped hating gays and bought a Prius."


 People's opinions effect who is in power and in turn who is in power creates propaganda against the other party which effects people's opinions and in turn the people vote.
Propaganda: It works bro.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Fire hose nozzle types effects spread and flow, which effects distance and what type of fires you want to put out, so terrible analogy.
> I'd rather conservatives be in the backseat than to have the liberals tied up and shoved in the trunk while they're driving the car.


 
Oh FUCK man, you know what I mean. Excuse me for not using 100 percent of my literary talent to explain to you that a shift from a Conservative to a Liberal government FAILS to change the opinion of every man and woman in America. Fuck it, just read Unsilenced's post right below mine.


----------



## Xenke (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Fire hose nozzle types effects spread and flow, which effects distance and what type of fires you want to put out, so terrible analogy.
> I'd rather conservatives be in the backseat than to have the liberals tied up and shoved in the trunk while they're driving the car.


 
You're expecting a total 180 just because some democrats are in office, when in reality it's more like a slow 10 degree turn.

Gay rights won't go far until the baby boomers die, really.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Oh FUCK man, you know what I mean. Excuse me for not using 100 percent of my literary talent to explain to you that a shift from a Conservative to a Liberal government FAILS to change the opinion of every man and woman in America. Fuck it, just read Unsilenced's post right below mine.


 Both parties create propaganda, example-
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R7hSu4tyM...I/iC5raY6ZkGg/s640/obama_superman_awesome.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/x/M/2/obama-stop-not-halo.jpg
Propaganda on the other hand does change _some _people's opinions.


Xenke said:


> You're expecting a total 180 just because some  democrats are in office, when in reality it's more like a slow 10 degree  turn.
> 
> Gay rights won't go far until the baby boomers die, really.


 All we really have to wait for is for half of them or more to die of old age, cause that will break their political stranglehold.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Both parties create propaganda, example-
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R7hSu4tyM...I/iC5raY6ZkGg/s640/obama_superman_awesome.jpg
> Propaganda on the other hand does change _some _people's opinions.


 
You know what, let's back this up, since you seem incapable of moving past this. 

You know how they made slavery illegal? And then discrimination? 

You know how some deep-south redneck mother fuckers still don't give a damn after nearly FIFTY YEARS? And how there's still racial violence today?

Now... you REALLY think in TEN years gays and dykes are gonna get full rights and acceptance to boot?


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> You know what, let's back this up, since you seem incapable of moving past this.
> 
> You know how they made slavery illegal? And then discrimination?
> 
> ...


Uh, my brother is racist, I do know this.
 No, I don't think that in ten years time all of society will be accepting or pro-glbt, what I think is that because that since the majority of the current generation reaching voting age believes in gay marriage that it will make a massive change politically.  The current generation that will be reaching voter age will constitute enough of a voter base that it will outright kill any chance of anti-glbt laws being passed on a national level and/or being continued.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Looks to me like these "parents" don't want grandchildren.


----------



## Bliss (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Oh, here's a couple links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2004/may/04051010



Funny, I was about to post this link in order to* defend* the parents. If you're born with a gender identity why not let the child tell it?
They are not cutting his/her genitals off and raise him/her to their own wishes. Quite the contrary.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> Funny, I was about to post this link in order to* defend* the parents. If you're born with a gender identity why not let the child tell it?
> *They are not cutting his/her genitals off and raise him/her to their own wishes.* Quite the contrary.


 
Yes, they're simply giving him the opportunity to have them chopped off, himself.  Could've just used an effective profilactic beforehand...   >.<


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Uh, my brother is racist, I do know this.
> No, I don't think that in ten years time all of society will be accepting or pro-glbt, what I think is that because that since the majority of the current generation reaching voting age believes in gay marriage that it will make a massive change politically.  The current generation that will be reaching voter age will constitute enough of a voter base that it will outright kill any chance of anti-glbt laws being passed on a national level and/or being continued.



It doesn't matter, it's all a non-point. The bad feelings will still be there, and he/she will still be singled out (given that these parents still have their head's up their ass). 



Lizzie said:


> Funny, I was about to post this link in order to* defend* the parents. If you're born with a gender identity why not let the child tell it?
> They are not cutting his/her genitals off and raise him/her to their own wishes. Quite the contrary.


 
I think adjusting a child to a lifestyle contrary, or otherwise, from his/her gender is harmful in any form or fashion, _particularly when that child isn't even old enough to know what a gender is._ And when he/she starts to learn about them in the latter stages of development, there will be an excruciating amount of confusion.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> It doesn't matter, it's all a non-point. The bad feelings will still be there, and he/she will still be singled out


 Except for all you know the child could be a boy and chose to live as a boy, or be a girl and chose to live as a girl.


----------



## Bliss (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Except for all you know the child could be a boy and chose to live as a boy, or be a girl and chose to live as a girl.



Exactly. It's about to let hÃ¤n choose. Nature gets it right if there is to put something right.


----------



## Radiohead (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

The only thing I thought about this story when I saw it on tumblr was the amount of people shouting "WE NEED TO SEE THIS INFANT'S GENITALS RIGHT NOW".


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Except for all you know the child could be a boy and chose to live as a boy, or be a girl and chose to live as a girl.


 


Lizzie said:


> Exactly. It's about to let hÃ¤n choose. Nature gets it right if there is to put something right.


 
Yes, let the child choose... 

WHEN IT'S OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW WHAT A GODDAMNED GENDER IS.


----------



## Bliss (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Yes, let the child choose...
> 
> WHEN IT'S OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW WHAT A GODDAMNED GENDER IS.



So hÃ¤n doesn't have any idea about gender at the moment... if hÃ¤n eventually will, why push? :C


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Yes, let the child choose...
> 
> WHEN IT'S OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW WHAT A GODDAMNED GENDER IS.


 But the child is being brought up as gender neutral and will be let to chose when older, therefore they are doing exactly that.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> So hÃ¤n doesn't have any idea about gender at the moment... if hÃ¤n eventually will, why push? :C





CannonFodder said:


> But the child is being brought up as gender neutral and will be let to chose when older, therefore they are doing exactly that.


 

Fyi, they ARE pushing by forcing everything about the child to be gender neutral. And CF, it doesn't change the damn fact that the child is being alienated through this whole setup.


----------



## Bliss (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Fyi, they ARE pushing by forcing everything about the child to be gender neutral.



You just said gender doesn't matter for a little baby. Something about titties and feces... xD


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Fyi, they ARE pushing by forcing everything about the child to be gender neutral.


 Not teaching them stereotypically gender activities and such=/=forcing them to be gender neutral.
To use a analogy, if a parent didn't teach their child how to drive, does that equate to not letting them drive?


----------



## Radiohead (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Okay, serious opinion. I think this is an interesting social experiment. Would I do it to my kid? Fuck no. I'd ruin their lives. Later on, when they were old enough to understand, I'd tell them to be whatever they liked, but when they're that young it's pointless to try and erase something so ingrained into society. They will be harassed and questioned and confused. That's the last thing I'd want for my kid, if I had one.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> You just said gender doesn't matter for a little baby. Something about titties and feces... xD





CannonFodder said:


> Not teaching them stereotypically gender activities and such=/=forcing them to be gender neutral.
> To use a example, if a parent didn't teach their child how to drive, does that equate to not letting them drive?



fuck the fucking fuck fuck fuckitty fuck fuck fuck

i don't even know anymore. i've been out-derped. 

IT IS IN MY OPINION, nothing more, that the child will be emotionally unbalanced because of the lack of a gender identity to form a definition of said identity because of the parents current actions. 

Also, no CF, but the child will be subject to everyone's opinions and traditions on how to drive, in the same way that the kid is going to learn from OUTSIDE the family that penis and panties were not designed for each other. 



Radiohead said:


> Okay, serious opinion. I think this is an interesting social experiment. Would I do it to my kid? Fuck no. I'd ruin their lives. Later on, when they were old enough to understand, I'd tell them to be whatever they liked, but when they're that young it's pointless to try and erase something so ingrained into society. They will be harassed and questioned and confused. That's the last thing I'd want for my kid, if I had one.


 
Basically this right here. THANK YOU Radiohead it's 3:64 am and i have no fucking clue.


----------



## Bliss (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> fuck the fucking fuck fuck fuckitty fuck fuck fuck
> 
> i don't even know anymore. i've been out-derped.
> 
> IT IS IN MY OPINION, nothing more, that the child will be emotionally unbalanced because of the lack of a gender identity to form a definition of said identity because of the parents current actions.



If you ever need to talk about your gender insecurities or daddy issues, I am willing to listen, honey. :V

I haven't slept in a while either. And I feel sick. Must be the Sun...


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> fuck the fucking fuck fuck fuckitty fuck fuck fuck
> 
> i don't even know anymore. i've been out-derped.


 Never try to out-derp CannonFodder.


----------



## Shark_the_raptor (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

What kinda name is Storm?

A boy named Jazz.

AHAHAHA

WTF

Srsly.


----------



## Recel (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Shark_the_raptor said:


> What kinda name is Storm?


 
He will have a good name to be a weather forcaster. :V


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Shark_the_raptor said:


> What kinda name is Storm?
> 
> A boy named Jazz.
> 
> ...


 Atleast the kid isn't named, "@" or "+Like"


----------



## Shark_the_raptor (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Recel said:


> He will have a good name to be a weather forcaster. :V


 
Or one of the X Men.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

What I wanna know is why do people want to take off the baby's pants so badly?
Normally random strangers taking off children's pants would see the person in prison.
Inb4 someone takes joke as serious post.


----------



## buni (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Accident? You raise someone as the opposite gender 15 years of their fucking life then go, "Oops! Sorry, you're actually a dude" and then he/she commits suicide and it's just an accident?


 
You're drastically misrepresenting the facts of the case.

If you take a look at the Wikipedia article on David, you'll see he suffered an accident during a treatment for phimosis and lost his penis. His parents took him to Johns Hopkins, then one of the big centers for gender studies, and the prominent psychologist John Money--then an advocate for the theory that children are inherently genderless and that sexual identity is entirely cultural--suggested they raise the child as a girl to avoid having to explain the accident. The child, then named Brenda, never took to the female role, but the parents routinely lied to Money regarding "Brenda"'s progress and even discontinued visits to the psychologist rather than let their deception become known. They only came clean to David when he threatened to kill himself.

David's and Storm's situations are incomparable. David's parents actively lied to him about who and what he was to prove a point. Storm's parents simply aren't telling zim how to act. The original article even says that Storm's mother isn't going to stop people from peeking while she's changing her kid; in her words, "that's their journey." She's just trying to shield Storm from external gender bias until zie's old enough to decide for zirself what to be and how to present.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I don't see anything wrong with what the parents are doing. They aren't forcing him or her to act a certain way, just letting them choose what is best. That might cause some problems in the future with the rest of society but that doesn't mean that it's wrong. To use the driving analogy from earlier, women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Some of them are trying to drive now but do you think in that society it would be morally wrong to teach a girl child to drive? I don't. Let the child grow up and decide his own gender. It won't matter to him or her for at least a decade still and by then he or she will have enough experience to start making some basic choices.

I wonder if the people here who think that not pushing the child into a specific gender role would also support trying to force a gay child to be straight.


----------



## Garfang (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

D: unbelievable! what can you learn this days.... This is bad Parenting .. to manipulate a kid in such a way.. shame on them...


----------



## Wreth (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I look forward to a time when biological sex matters as much a hair colour or blood type in terms of how people are treated, and what is acceptable for them to do.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I don't see anything wrong with what the parents are doing.


 
You mean aside from the fact they think a four month old is capable of making decisions like "I want to wear these clothes because I identify as gender neutral"?

Seriously, we all do realize the kid's FOUR FUCKING MONTHS OLD, right?  And the whole thing that started this was because the parents were like "Oh, he smiles while wearing pink clothes?  HE MUST BE GENDER NEUTRAL WE ARE GOOD PARENTS LET'S MAKE A SCENE TO SHOW YOU HOW COURAGEOUS OUR FOUR MONTH OLD IS TO MAKE THESE LIFE DECISIONS.

Seriously, this may be the most retarded thing I've seen this morning.


----------



## Frokusblakah (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Seriously, this may be the most retarded thing I've seen this morning.


 
I thought so too until I read some of the responses in this thread.  ;o


----------



## buni (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> You mean aside from the fact they think a four month old is capable of making decisions like "I want to wear these clothes because I identify as gender neutral"?



I don't think they're "asking the child what zie wants to wear" so much as they're just not telling anybody else whether to shop in the boys' or girls' departments for clothes. At no point have they said Storm wants to be gender-neutral; they've only said they're not going to push a preconceived notion of gender presentation on the child.


----------



## Fay V (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

On the one hand I agree in letting kids explore gender without being judgemental. let a kid wear a dress and play with a race car, it's good for them. At the same time I don't think that not telling kids their gender is a good idea. I think society does force a lot of bias, but gender is something of a foundation. Kid's need to understand where they are. This is A, this is B. I look like A so I must be A so I'll do this. You can tell a kid they're a girl without forcing them to be frilly little princesses. 
Maybe I am just biased. I just feel it's better to give a kid a foundation so they can discover who they are, rather than give them nothing, let them try to pull something together, then when they're old enough to realize they view things differently, have a crisis.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



buni said:


> I don't think they're "asking the child what zie wants to wear" so much as they're just not telling anybody else whether to shop in the boys' or girls' departments for clothes. At no point have they said Storm wants to be gender-neutral; they've only said they're not going to push a preconceived notion of gender presentation on the child.


 
They've very much implied that this is something the child wants because the whole reason why keeping the kid's gender identity a secret was because the kid appeared to enjoy clothing intended for girls.  They then decided to make a scene, instead of letting people know whether or not the kid was a boy or girl, and said "Oh, since the kid's obviously not sure, we're not going to push anything on them."

Seriously, wat.


----------



## HyBroMcYenapants (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

But, but if it helps OUR agenda...


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Oh gender threads... How I loathe miss your recurring never get anywhere ness. 

Kid likes to suck on titts and shit itself. We can determine two things it has a sexual preference for women and has a scat fetish :v


----------



## Tycho (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

"onoes how will this child ever learn to grow up normally and chase after pussy like every young male should according to our thinly veiled brainwashing, this just TOTALLY screws up our marketing plan for him"

trust me, peer pressure and bombardment by popular media will "straighten the kid out".  The unpleasant way, unfortunately for him.  The parents are birdbrained idiots, the media's trying to play nanny, ultimately the kid loses.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



			
				Term_the_Schmuck said:
			
		

> You mean aside from the fact they think a four month old is  capable of making decisions like "I want to wear these clothes because I  identify as gender neutral"?



They never said anything like that. They said they don't want the child to grow up being forced into a particular gender role. The child doesn't identify as gender neutral but has the opportunity to wear whatever pleases them rather than being limited by what sex they were born as.



			
				Term_the_Schmuck said:
			
		

> They've very much implied that this is something the child wants  because the whole reason why keeping the kid's gender identity a secret  was because the kid appeared to enjoy clothing intended for girls.  They  then decided to make a scene, instead of letting people know whether or  not the kid was a boy or girl, and said "Oh, since the kid's obviously  not sure, we're not going to push anything on them."



What? How do you read things? They aren't telling the child's sex because then people will judge him or her by the preconceptions of that and not on them as an individual. It's not about the children not being sure, it's about not forcing a particular stereotype on them.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> They never said anything like that. They said they don't want the child to grow up being forced into a particular gender role. The child doesn't identify as gender neutral but has the opportunity to wear whatever pleases them rather than being limited by what sex they were born as.



And that would be fine, aside from the fact that the parents are also arbitrarily applying their own personal agendas upon the child.  This isn't about the kid being able to wear whatever the hell they want or like whatever the hell they want.  It's gone far beyond that in order to try and make a statement.  All under the guise of saying "this is what the kid likes, so we're going to keep doing what they like."



> What? How do you read things? They aren't telling the child's sex because then people will judge him or her by the preconceptions of that and not on them as an individual. It's not about the children not being sure, it's about not forcing a particular stereotype on them.


 
Read the message they sent out to family and friends:



> We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now--a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm's lifetime



ALL OF THIS OVER THE FACT THAT THE KID SMILES BECAUSE WHILE WEARING GIRLS CLOTHES THAT THE PARENTS BOUGHT FOR IT.

I'm sorry, but there's a lot of decisions that we don't make kids make.  Most parents don't let their kids be shut-ins, they throw them outside or get them involved in sports or after school activities instead of letting them sit in front of the TV.  They don't let them decide what's for dinner every night.  They don't let them choose when to go to bed.  Yet somehow they expect this four month old to be able to make a decision on its gender?  Or when it's 1?  2?  10?

I personally will not be shocked when this family ends up producing the next Balloon Boy-esque story.


----------



## Icky (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

this thread is full of stupid

I understand what they're trying to do here, they don't want to force the child into one defined role. But by not doing that, they're essentially forcing them to be a sad, gender confused adult instead of a lumberjack or a fashion model.


----------



## Icky (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

this thread is full of stupid

I understand what they're trying to do here, they don't want to force the child into one defined role. But by not doing that, they're essentially forcing them to be a sad, gender confused adult instead of a lumberjack or a fashion model.


----------



## Wreth (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I think this neglects that someone can feel completely male, but like wearing dresses, and someone can love cars and sports and guns and feel completely female.


----------



## Rsyk (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I do so wish that people would stop using children as a way to make a political statement. All you're going to do is fuck up the kids lives, and then they end up on Doctor Phil. And no one wants to be seen on Doctor Phil. 

Not to mention, these parents kids are going to wind up truly fucked. That "un-schooling" thing the parents are doing doesn't work; if the children learn anything, it's going to be in the one field they're interested in. And nothing else. There are very few people who can live successfully like that.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Icky's posts are full of doubles.  :V


----------



## Heimdal (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

The parents should intend to teach the kid stuff, particularly important unavoidable gender-role stuff. If the boy decides to be a girl later on, they can encourage it then, can't they? Doing it all this early is pointless, and is just going to lead to awkwardness, ignorance, and confusion when hes older (basically, they are not teaching him things that other kids will know.) This is more of a hippy social experiment than a parental thing. Then again, if the parents think this is a good strategy, they probably don't have the brains to teach him anything useful anyways.


----------



## 8-bit (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

That's fucking stupid. 

1. WHO THE FUCK NAMES THEIR KID "STORM"? IS HE AN X-MEN!? >:V
2. Home schooling isn't always the best option. Kids need social interaction, as well. If he's getting that, then fine.
3. Letting a kid dress in girly clothes isn't, "breaking all gender roles zomg!" The kid just wants to dress however the fuck he wants. Big fucking deal. I played with barbies when i was a kid. UH-OH call the media guys! :V


----------



## Unsilenced (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

The parents are making the kid's life much harder than it needs to be, really. Most people are perfectly comfortable in their normal gender rolls. Telling the kid to not accept normal gender rolls and "choose for themselves" is really just going to make things confusing for him/her.

When I was a little kid, my parents decided they were going to let me choose for myself what religion I would be, Jewish or Christian. The result? I switched back and forth between the two several times with absolutely no regard for what either one actually meant. I was too young to understand the different cultures and histories. I just kept picking whichever one sounded better, and I kept changing my mind. 

Fortunately nobody in my family was particularly religious, so it didn't get much attention. 

Now imagine doing the same thing for a kid's gender. 

Can't really ignore that. 




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Icky's posts are full of doubles.  :V


 
Check 'em.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Unsilenced said:


> Check 'em.


 
God damnit.


----------



## VoidBat (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I think we discussed this in our Philosophy class some time ago. 
The reason why people are freaking out (and it's understandable) is because these parents challenge the very foundation of the few things that we know is for certain.
Life and death, for example is one thing that we know is certain. When someone, or something is shaking the foundations that many people keep their feet on there's bound to be mixed feelings and raeg.


----------



## Spatel (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

When I think about it I pretty much consciously avoided gender-specific activities as a kid on my own. I played with legos. I played video games, but not the shooty kind, just platformers and puzzle games. I didn't like monster trucks, sports, action figures, dolls, dress-up, or any of that gendered crap.

And look at me now... I'm the genderfuckest nerd that ever, and it doesn't afraid of anything.


----------



## RedSavage (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Fay V said:


> On the one hand I agree in letting kids explore gender without being judgemental. let a kid wear a dress and play with a race car, it's good for them. At the same time I don't think that not telling kids their gender is a good idea. I think society does force a lot of bias, but gender is something of a foundation. Kid's need to understand where they are. This is A, this is B. I look like A so I must be A so I'll do this. You can tell a kid they're a girl without forcing them to be frilly little princesses.
> Maybe I am just biased. I just feel it's better to give a kid a foundation so they can discover who they are, rather than give them nothing, let them try to pull something together, then when they're old enough to realize they view things differently, have a crisis.


 
Aha! Yes, this was a point I was trying to make and all. I was just too tired to think it last night this morning.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

All I could think throughout this entire thread was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Smugmeister said:


> I think we discussed this in our Philosophy class some time ago.
> The reason why people are freaking out (and it's understandable) is because these parents challenge the very foundation of the few things that we know is for certain.
> Life and death, for example is one thing that we know is certain. When someone, or something is shaking the foundations that many people keep their feet on there's bound to be mixed feelings and raeg.


Coincidentally speaking life and death is also shades of gray also, it's just our medical ability to reverse it is extremely limited right now(It wouldn't surprise me if a hundred years from now they re-animated the dead like it was no bit deal).

Unfortunately alot of people don't like thinking about things we "know" for certain as "true", why do you think religion and political discussions always go the way they do?  We "know for certain" we are right and no matter what side we are on the discussions rattling those views are downright heretical.


----------



## Thatch (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



8-bit said:


> 3. Letting a kid dress in girly clothes isn't, "breaking all gender roles zomg!" The kid just wants to dress however the fuck he wants. Big fucking deal. I played with barbies when i was a kid. UH-OH call the media guys! :V


 
And now you're a My Little Pony fan and a FAF admin. Is it really the best example? :V



CannonFodder said:


> Coincidentally speaking life and death is also shades of gray also


 
No, dude, you see, it's like, life is like the sky, seeming blue because it's full of oxygen, but sometimes red, even though it's not O4 that makes it so. Ya know?


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> No, dude, you see, it's like, life is like the sky, seeming blue because it's full of oxygen, but sometimes red, even though it's not O4 that makes it so. Ya know?


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfwTjg4LGHQ
Warning: disturbing.


----------



## Bliss (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfwTjg4LGHQ
> Warning: disturbing.



Also, this information-theoretical death stuff. :3


----------



## Heliophobic (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> Oh western civilization, why do you still give kids the chop? What is our obsession with the removal of foreskin? Inb4 Kimmersets foreskin :V


 
Religion, culture, health, etc.


----------



## Fay V (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

This reminds me of the movie "big daddy" where he lets the kid dress how he wants, kid goes into school with a cap and boxers or something. yeah. that kid was super gender neutral.


----------



## Azure (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Sollux said:


> Religion, culture, health, etc.


 Pretty sure the Jews are the ones who are all about the chop, not that Jesus fellow. And I'm not so sure what in our culture leads to regular old people giving their kids the chop. As far as health goes, well, if you can use a shower, you can wash your dick.


----------



## Thatch (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> As far as health goes, well, if you can use a shower, you can wash your dick.


 
They assume you'll grow fat enough not to be able to see you dick anymore before you learn proper hygene? :V


----------



## ramsay_baggins (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Fay V said:


> This reminds me of the movie "big daddy" where he lets the kid dress how he wants, kid goes into school with a cap and boxers or something. yeah. that kid was super gender neutral.



I am currently watching this movie.



Azure said:


> Pretty sure the Jews are the ones who are all about the chop, not that Jesus fellow. And I'm not so sure what in our culture leads to regular old people giving their kids the chop. As far as health goes, well, if you can use a shower, you can wash your dick.


 
I would never get my kid circumcised =/ I don't understand the American obsession with it, as far as I'm aware it's not as prevalent here.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Fay V said:


> This reminds me of the movie "big daddy" where he lets the kid dress how he wants, kid goes into school with a cap and boxers or something. yeah. that kid was super gender neutral.


 The problem with that movie is that
1)Fictious movie
2)The child was already taught gender


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> Pretty sure the Jews are the ones who are all about the chop, not that Jesus fellow. And I'm not so sure what in our culture leads to regular old people giving their kids the chop. As far as health goes, well, if you can use a shower, you can wash your dick.



Christians continued it because they believed that without a foreskin, people would be less likely to sin, aka masturbate.  At this point it's become so prevalent in our culture that people are grossed out by the sight of foreskin.  Had this conversation with an ex who saw a special on it on Discovery Health.  Said she'd never have sex with a guy who had a foreskin because it was too "weird."



CannonFodder said:


> The problem with that movie is that
> 1)Fictious movie
> 2)The child was already taught gender


 
Her point of course being that if the parents don't dress their child from an early age, they will just wear whatever the hell kinds of outfits they want.  Ever have a fight with a little kid who refused to wear a jacket when it's cold?  Or wanted to wear some ridiculous hat/outfit to a formal function?  Someone's preference  or decision making in clothes does not dictate gender or gender confusion which apparently these parents believe their child is exhibiting less than half a year old.


----------



## buni (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



ramsay_baggins said:


> I would never get my kid circumcised =/ I don't understand the American obsession with it, as far as I'm aware it's not as prevalent here.



So far as I understand it (NOTE: This is collected heresay and theory, do not substitute for proof):
American Army doctors post-WWI noted a much-reduced prevalence of groin infections in Jewish soldiers than in other subgroupings, and when they did the analysis, they found that circumcised penises were less likely to get crufty and gross in the trenches. As a result, the military took to evangelizing circumcision as a public-health issue in case America found itself in another trench war. This happened to weld two potent symbols--religion and the Armed Forces--together on an issue in a way that's become difficult to break. For a long time, circumcising male babies was just Something You Did, regardless of religious affiliation, because "everybody knows it's easier to clean." We're starting to see signs of that trend weakening, but it's taken fifty-plus years, and it's still fairly common these days.


----------



## Jashwa (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Just posting to say that "unschooling" is fucking retarded and their kids are going to grow up to be idiots.


----------



## CAThulu (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



buni said:


> So far as I understand it (NOTE: This is collected heresay and theory, do not substitute for proof):
> American Army doctors post-WWI noted a much-reduced prevalence of groin infections in Jewish soldiers than in other subgroupings, and when they did the analysis, they found that circumcised penises were less likely to get crufty and gross in the trenches. As a result, the military took to evangelizing circumcision as a public-health issue in case America found itself in another trench war. This happened to weld two potent symbols--religion and the Armed Forces--together on an issue in a way that's become difficult to break. For a long time, circumcising male babies was just Something You Did, regardless of religious affiliation, because "everybody knows it's easier to clean." We're starting to see signs of that trend weakening, but it's taken fifty-plus years, and it's still fairly common these days.



That and being 'cut' was seen as the norm, and being 'uncut' was seen as freakish, which is a mentality that is _slowly_ starting to change.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Being "uncut" is natural, being cut is freekish.  Which means...?


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> Just posting to say that "unschooling" is fucking retarded and their kids are going to grow up to be idiots.


 One parent teaches at a school though.


----------



## Jashwa (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> One parent teaches at a school though.


 That doesn't matter. The kid is going to grow up to know almost nothing about the majority of things just because he wasn't interested in them when he was little.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



ramsay_baggins said:


> I would never get my kid circumcised =/ I don't understand the American obsession with it, as far as I'm aware it's not as prevalent here.


 
Am I the only American female REPULSED by the sight of a guy that is cut?


----------



## 8-bit (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> And now you're a My Little Pony fan and a FAF admin. Is it really the best example? :V


 
Putting dicks in your mouth while wearing a french maid uniform is perfectly normal. :V 
And since when was I a FAF admin!? :V


----------



## Jashwa (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Am I the only American female REPULSED by the sight of a guy that is cut?


 Probably not, but you're definitely in the minority.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> One parent teaches at a school though.


 
An "alternative" school.

Which is a nice way of saying they don't know what the fuck they're doing.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> Probably not, but you're definitely in the minority.


 
It just seems natural to have foreskin, if I see a dick lacking foreskin I just go WAT!?.

I almost feel sorry for guys that are cut. It was not their choice. It just happened on them.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Back on topic, it will be interesting to see how the kid turns out when Storm grows up and whether or not all the soothsayers will be right or will it just be a bunch of malarkey.
I vote hogwash.


----------



## 8-bit (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> It just seems natural to have foreskin, if I see a dick lacking foreskin I just go WAT!?.
> 
> I almost feel sorry for guys that are cut. It was not their choice. It just happened on them.


 
WTF do you even do with it? If I got with a guy, I'd be like, "What am suppose to do with this?" So confuse.


----------



## Shiroka (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

At least I'm glad to see that there is at least one family in the world who will not give in to the cultural gender stereotypes for their kid's education. I mean, I have nothing against girls playing with dolls and boys playing with cars, but when you limit them to gender stereotypical entertainment, shit happens.

That being said, if I have a boy one day, I'll never let him go outside wearing a dress. But I wouldn't either if he was a girl anyway, I hate dresses. :V


----------



## CannonFodder (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Shiroka said:


> At least I'm glad to see that there is at least one family in the world who will not give in to the cultural gender stereotypes for their kid's education. I mean, I have nothing against girls playing with dolls and boys playing with cars, but when you limit them to gender stereotypical entertainment, shit happens.
> 
> That being said, if I have a boy one day, I'll never let him go outside wearing a dress. But I wouldn't either if he was a girl anyway, I hate dresses. :V


 Speaking of which America needs far more engineer than we currently have and the gender stereotypes don't help. In fact the joke in engineering is what few women in the field are hunted to extinction.

If I had a kid in the future I wouldn't take it to _this_ point, but I would let them play with what toys they wanted to.  What I mean by that is if they were a girl and liked playing football and being a tomboy or such, I wouldn't have a problem.

*CF casts lvl 94 topic re-rail*


----------



## Jashwa (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Speaking of which America needs far more engineer than we currently have and the gender stereotypes don't help. In fact the joke in engineering is what few women in the field are hunted to extinction.


 Not really. 

To any of this. 

There are plenty of girl engineering students at my school. I'd wager that it's about 60:40  men to women.


----------



## Azure (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

America needs women to stay in the damn kitchen :V


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> Not really.
> 
> To any of this.
> 
> There are plenty of girl engineering students at my school. I'd wager that it's about 60:40  men to women.


 Unfortunately alot of women find themselves knocked up and barefoot in the kitchen.
A woman I knew who was getting a medical degree had this happen to her and within the month of the child's birth found herself permanently dropping out of college to raise the child.


----------



## Jashwa (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Unfortunately alot of women find themselves knocked up and barefoot in the kitchen.
> A woman I knew who was getting a medical degree had this happen to her and within the month of the child's birth found herself permanently dropping out of college to raise the child.


 What the fuck?

FAF, are you just fucking with me today?


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> FAF, are you just fucking with me today?


 tl;dr: some guys idea of "family" is the 1950's post-WWII nuclear family in which the woman stays at home and the guy earns the money.


----------



## Jashwa (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I am so confused right now.

Are you just posting non sequitirs?


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Had this conversation with an ex who saw a special on it on Discovery Health.  Said she'd never have sex with a guy who had a foreskin because it was too "weird."


Damn straight - I won't either. Shit is really gross if it's like tube-sock long. I mean if it's shorter then I guess it's okay but I aint touchin it or nothin unless the guy is really really hot.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> I am so confused right now.
> 
> Are you just posting non sequitirs?


 Gender roles -> Society depicts men as going to work while the woman stays in the kitchen  -> Guy accidentally knocks up his girlfriend in college -> guy ends up doing what society depicts as ideal familly.


----------



## Frokusblakah (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> Damn straight - I won't either. Shit is really gross if it's like tube-sock long. I mean if it's shorter then I guess it's okay but I aint touchin it or nothin unless the guy is really really hot.


 
Haha.  Clatyon you crack me up to no end.

But seriously, I'd probably ask for a circumcision if I didn't get one.  Tube dick looks gross, I'm happy I got one as a baby.  ;o


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> I almost feel sorry for guys that are cut. It was not their choice. It just happened on them.


 
Don't feel sorry.

Most of us who have bigger things to worry about don't give a shit about an inch or so of skin.

I equate those men who truly take issue with their circumcision as men with way too much time on their hands.


----------



## Radiohead (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

>The point

>this thread


----------



## Spatel (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Am I the only American female REPULSED by the sight of a guy that is cut?


 
Uncut dicks are hotter, though I'm not female.

Also I'm cut


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Radiohead said:


> >The point
> 
> >this thread


 How did we end up on cut vs. uncut?

Also I gotta ask how would letting a child chose what gender they want to grow up to be end up messing up a kid?  Gender is a societal construct.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Frokusblakah said:


> Haha.  Clatyon you crack me up to no end.
> 
> But seriously, I'd probably ask for a circumcision if I didn't get one.  Tube dick looks gross, I'm happy I got one as a baby.  ;o


do you want to compare our circumcisions together?


----------



## Jashwa (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Gender roles -> Society depicts men as going to work while the woman stays in the kitchen  -> Guy accidentally knocks up his girlfriend in college -> guy ends up doing what society depicts as ideal familly.


 What does any of that have to do with gender stereotypes as children affecting career fields or the amount of women in engineering? That's a complete non sequitir.


----------



## Radiohead (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Gender is a societal construct.


 
Do you think a baby knows that?


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> How did we end up on cut vs. uncut?
> 
> Also I gotta ask how would letting a child chose what gender they want to grow up to be end up messing up a kid?  Gender is a societal construct.


It could be damaging to the kid once they hit highschool, because most doctors wouldn't... no... *no* doctors would give a young teen a sex change... I mean unless it was a medical issue and was needed.

I got no problems with a kid choosing what they want to wear/do/play sports/hang out with boys or girls/etc etc, but I can see why some people may say "it will mess the kid up!" because kids don't really *know* who they are until later on


----------



## Bliss (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

What is wrong with you people wanting to be mutilated? *That's *gross. :C


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> It could be damaging to the kid once they hit highschool, because most doctors wouldn't... no... *no* doctors would give a young teen a sex change... I mean unless it was a medical issue and was needed.
> 
> I got no problems with a kid choosing what they want to wear/do/play sports/hang out with boys or girls/etc etc, but I can see why some people may say "it will mess the kid up!" because kids don't really *know* who they are until later on


Some doctors and therapists don't care, also there is another model for treating gender identity disorder that if you know about can give a shortcut, so it really depends on who is the person.
Some doctors would require months of therapy and/or refuse to sign the paperwork, but some just want to make sure you are sane for the decision.
tl;dr: depends on the doctor.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Some doctors and therapists don't care, also there is another model for treating gender identity disorder that if you know about can give a shortcut, so it really depends on who is the person.
> Some doctors would require months of therapy and/or refuse to sign the paperwork, *but some just want to make sure you are sane for the decision*.
> tl;dr: depends on the doctor.


 
Wanting to be mutilated should automatically put a person on the "insane" side of the ledger.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Wanting to be mutilated should automatically put a person on the "insane" side of the ledger.


 Some doctors have been known to require as little as three therapist visits.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Some doctors have been known to require as little as three therapist visits.


 
"Some doctors" need to have their licenses revoked.


----------



## Bliss (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> It could be damaging to the kid once they hit highschool, because most doctors wouldn't... no... *no* doctors would give a young teen a sex change... I mean unless it was a medical issue and was needed.
> 
> I got no problems with a kid choosing what they want to wear/do/play sports/hang out with boys or girls/etc etc, but I can see why some people may say "it will mess the kid up!" because kids don't really *know* who they are until later on



Were you turned gay by your parents failing in parenting? 
Why would this kid even consider SRS?

Again _/)_ about that transsexualism... You're born that way baby.
There are biological factors that 'mess you up' in uterus and stuff.
Living in the perceived gender is the only way to make these persons' lives worth living. So many people take their sex for granted.

I see red whenever some 'medical experts' justify waiting for treatments to underaged people by need for them to 'be sure'. Even when it's so damn obvious. The process is considerably harder if started later in life. Common desency to even *delay* puberty is seen as a choice the person is not ready for. 

Dr. Oz made a great episode about it on his show. At last someone doesn't let their biased crap to make people think it as something 'unnatural'.


----------



## Atreyu (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

as much as i'm all for gender-fuckery and so on, man is a social animal. you can say 'to hell with all the stereotypes' but, let's face it, none of us will truly ever practice that. that said, this sounds like a good idea in theory and in a perfect world, but much like communism, it just won't work the way its theorized to by those rooting for it.  

also lizzie is absolutely right. being transgendered is not something you choose. you are born that way or you're not and srs/hrt is something used for the cases where the person's life would be meaningless and miserable (if not self-terminated) without it. likewise, you can't predict it and simply, as a parent, must keep an open mind when it comes to the wide spectrum of gender/sex/sexuality. 

rather than keep the child's gender a secret, why not just be supportive no matter what the child decides? odds are the child will likely decide to identify as their birth-sex. even if they don't, don't you think the kid would appreciate less attention being drawn to them? i think it will be harder for poor Storm to decide who/what he/she is now that so many people are painfully aware of this sensationalized mystery.
if they want the child to choose for themselves, let them live as all the other children first and be individuals later.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



			
				Atreyu said:
			
		

> rather than keep the child's gender a secret, why not just be supportive  no matter what the child decides? odds are the child will likely decide  to identify as their birth-sex. even if they don't, don't you think the  kid would appreciate less attention being drawn to them? i think it  will be harder for poor Storm to decide who/what he/she is now that so  many people are painfully aware of this sensationalized mystery.
> if they want the child to choose for themselves, let them live as all the other children first and be individuals later.



It is about being supportive. If they say the child is a boy and he starts wearing dresses then people are going to treat him strangely. By not telling other people they force them to treat him normally. The child still gets to be a child just like everyone else but without the risk of wearing a dress one day and having someone tell him, 'No, boys don't wear that.'



			
				Term_the_Schmuck said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but there's a lot of decisions that we don't make kids make.   Most parents don't let their kids be shut-ins, they throw them outside  or get them involved in sports or after school activities instead of  letting them sit in front of the TV.  They don't let them decide what's  for dinner every night.  They don't let them choose when to go to bed.   Yet somehow they expect this four month old to be able to make a  decision on its gender?  Or when it's 1?  2?  10?



They don't expect him to make a decision on his or her gender now. They are giving him the chance to grow up without being told who he or she must be. If you tell someone you have a girl baby they will buy pink clothes and dolls. If you tell them you have a boy baby they buy blue clothes and toy guns/cars/tools. That sends a message about what you must be just because of how you were born. It's removing something like peer pressure. It's not about smiling when wearing a dress.


----------



## InflatedSnake (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



> Witterick practices unschooling, an offshoot of home-schooling centred  on the belief that learning should be driven by a childâ€™s curiosity.  There are no report cards, no textbooks and no tests. For unschoolers,  learning is about exploring and asking questions, â€œnot something that  happens by rote from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. weekdays in a building with a  group of same-age people, planned, implemented and assessed by someone  else,â€ says Witterick. The fringe movement is growing. An unschooling  conference in Toronto drew dozens of families last fall.


Oh god...


----------



## ramsay_baggins (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



8-bit said:


> WTF do you even do with it? If I got with a guy, I'd be like, "What am suppose to do with this?" So confuse.


 
When he gets an erection it rolls back, so it's not like it gets in the way... It's just normal and plays a part in protecting the head when not erect *shrug*

Personally I find circumcision pretty disgusting. It's just wrong in my mind x_x



As for the unschooling - it's the part I have most trouble with in this. They need to be taught the basics. It's not like you can't make it fun for them to learn, it doesn't have to be a chore.


----------



## Uro (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Well, first off, this ISN'T the first time this kinda bullshit happened. Ah, some other couple a long time ago had a boy who had a little TOO much snipped during circumcision. It was suggested that they raise the boy as a girl, and they did. Dresses, dolls, etc. And for the longest time, they raised him as a girl.
> 
> Well, they eventually told him the truth when he was old enough, and he more or less immediately switched to a male persona. He got a bit of surgery to get back some of his have-not, got married, and had a kid even (i think).
> 
> ...



Wish I found this earlier, but you're comparing two entirely different situations. In one the parents are letting the child _decide_ what gender he wants to go with. They aren't trying to change his sex, they are letting the child do what they feel is comfortable with them.

The situation you're referring to with Dr. Money who claimed that children could be raised purely on nurture and disregarded nature. He told the parents to remove what was left of the childs penis and raise him as a female. Throughout that persons life he acted as a male despite efforts by his parents and doctors. Clearly the child was confused and had no say in what happened to him.

So again, the difference between to two situations is vast. On one had the parents are allowing the child to choose their gender roles (not the same as biological sex). Whereas in the other case, the child went through a traumatic experience and was deceived into believing he was female when the signs clearly showed he didn't feel that way.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> It is about being supportive. If they say the child is a boy and he starts wearing dresses then people are going to treat him strangely. By not telling other people they force them to treat him normally. The child still gets to be a child just like everyone else but without the risk of wearing a dress one day and having someone tell him, 'No, boys don't wear that.'
> 
> They don't expect him to make a decision on his or her gender now. They are giving him the chance to grow up without being told who he or she must be. If you tell someone you have a girl baby they will buy pink clothes and dolls. If you tell them you have a boy baby they buy blue clothes and toy guns/cars/tools. That sends a message about what you must be just because of how you were born. It's removing something like peer pressure. It's not about smiling when wearing a dress.


 For once I agree, I keep seeing the argument, "let the kid chose when he grows up", but in reality that is exactly what they are doing.
If a child is bought dolls, dresses and that and is taught to act like a girl, then they will grow up acting like a girl.
If a child is bought hot wheels, transformers toys, taught to play football then they will grow up acting like a boy.
The argument, "this will fuck up the child's head" is invalid because in all likelyhood storm will chose the gender of what sex he was born with.  It's not like they are teaching a boy to be a girl, or teaching a girl to be a boy.  All they are doing is not teaching Storm to act one preconceived societal construct's narrow range of deemed acceptable behavioural norm.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Some doctors have been known to require as little as three therapist visits.


 I don't think a doctor is going to give a sex change to a 15 year old 'cause they want to be the opposite gender is all I'm saying.



Lizzie said:


> Were you turned gay by your parents failing in parenting?
> Why would this kid even consider SRS?
> 
> Again _/)_ about that transsexualism... You're born that way baby.
> ...


 Mm I don't see your point. Are you implying that I think transexualism doesn't happen when the kid is really young? I think of it as the same dealio as being gay or lesbian, it happens when you're a wee babby and you can't be "turned" gay by your parents.

Giving a sex change to a 13 y.o is disgusting. It's ridiculous. That's a life changing decision they would be making.


----------



## Heimdal (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

The people supporting this way of raising the kid also say gender is a social construct. Doesn't that strike you as a problem? It's learned, but theyre not being taught. You don't think that whatever gender identity they come up with on their own just isn't going to fit into the rest of society right? That's really the problem in this. I doubt that only biological women wear dresses, I would think that 'weirdos who wear dresses' also wear dresses.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Heimdal said:


> The people supporting this way of raising the kid also say gender is a social construct. Doesn't that strike you as a problem? It's learned, but theyre not being taught. *You don't think that whatever gender identity they come up with on their own just isn't going to fit into the rest of society right?* That's really the problem in this. I doubt that only biological women wear dresses, I would think that 'weirdos who wear dresses' also wear dresses.


 And what is wrong with someone not fitting into what society deems as "normal"?
To use a analogy, by your logic gays should just act straight cause they don't "fit into the rest of society".


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> And what is wrong with someone not fitting into what society deems as "normal"?
> To use a analogy, by your logic gays should just act straight cause they don't "fit into the rest of society".


Straights don't get the shit beat out of them and even killed for being straight, do they?

That's why.


----------



## Heimdal (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> And what is wrong with someone not fitting into what society deems as "normal"?
> To use a analogy, by your logic gays should just act straight cause they don't "fit into the rest of society".


 
Clayton said it pretty good.

However, I'm not condoning that kind of discrimination. What I am saying is that Storm isn't being raised into a world that's going to immediately accept all the weird antics he is being allowed to develop. That's something that good parents should want to prepare you for.

Also note that homosexuality has always been very prevalent in society, and yet is far less blatant than "wearing a dress." As well, isn't the latter one learned? That's a big difference. Better analogy: girly man enters a rough biker bar, who's responsibility is it to adapt?


----------



## Tycho (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Don't feel sorry.
> 
> Most of us who have bigger things to worry about don't give a shit about an inch or so of skin.
> 
> I equate those men who truly take issue with their circumcision as men with way too much time on their hands.


 
Meh, I dunno, I don't blame them for being pissed.  Circumcision is an antiquated religious genital mutilation ritual with no real purpose, barring some severe cases.  It's "voodoo medicine" as far as I'm concerned.  And the aftermath from the "oopsies" of botched circumcision jobs can be devastating.

If someone lopped off any part of your body because "it's there and it's ugly/silly/MIGHT get infected" as an *adult* you'd be filing malpractice suits.  To argue "oh, it *might* get dirty/infected" is pretty  fucking dumb too.  Your earlobe might get infected.  It's happened, you  know.  We should cut your earlobes off.  Oh, and remember that stay in the hospital after you got your tonsils out, and the days afterward where you couldn't talk and could eat only soft, non-hot food? Tonsillectomies are pretty much proven to be unnecessary borderline-quackery in most cases.  Tonsils also happen to be part of a very important bodily system (the lymphatic system).
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/110/1/7.abstract


If a similar type of mutilation for FEMALE babies for a similarly nebulous and specious reason started gaining popularity in the "civilized Western world", the shit would fucking HIT.  THE.  FAN.  Comparisons to the crazy shit they do in horribly misogynistic cultures would abound.  

If it was YOU or YOUR KID that got a botch job you'd be asking "Why the fuck was this done at all in the first place?"

Humanity in general has a fucking OBSESSION with cutting things off or out.  It's fucking dumb.  The issue is not that it's just goddamn hood for your willie, it's a piece of your body.  And generally cutting off parts of one's body for perceived convenience, vanity, or a nebulous promise of better health is considered dumb, backwards, borderline savagery and voodoo superstition and idiocy.


----------



## Jashwa (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

See, you seem to be unnecessarily mad about a procedure that causes no lasting harm.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> See, you seem to be unnecessarily mad about a procedure that causes no lasting harm.


 Jashwa.
are you literally being serious


----------



## Redregon (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

ignoring all the gender-issue wank ITT, it's not like society's norms and expectations are suddenly going to be turned off because their kid Storm (storm? seriously? why not just call them dandelion rosepetal danger like proper hippies) is being allowed to dress and act however they want. 

... kids also would like to have a diet consisting mainly of candy and ice-cream... doesn't mean it's a good idea.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Redregon said:


> ignoring all the gender-issue wank ITT, it's not like society's norms and expectations are suddenly going to be turned off because their kid Storm (storm? seriously? why not just call them dandelion rosepetal danger like proper hippies) is being allowed to dress and act however they want.
> 
> ... kids also would like to have a diet consisting mainly of candy and ice-cream... doesn't mean it's a good idea.


I knew someone named Storm once, he was pretty cool for a German Shepherd.


----------



## Thatch (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Jashwa said:


> See, you seem to be unnecessarily mad about a procedure that causes no lasting harm.


 
You only say that because you have no other choice :V


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Ima start a movement for the abolishment of cutting off foreskin. IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING.


----------



## Unsilenced (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Ima start a movement for the abolishment of cutting off foreskin. IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING.


 
:c


----------



## Tewin Follow (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Disregard; I didn't read the thread.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Ima start a movement for the abolishment of cutting off foreskin. IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING.


 
Foreskin is gross and now you cant touch my penis


----------



## Thatch (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> Foreskin is gross and now you cant touch my penis


 
It's only gross if you suck at personl hygene. But then you suck in overall anyway.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> It's only gross if you suck at personl hygene. But then you suck in overall anyway.


 OMG THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR, THATCH
and no im always smelling fresh as a baby cat


----------



## Tewin Follow (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

This thread is made of meaningful discussion.


----------



## Thatch (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> OMG THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR, THATCH
> and no im always smelling fresh as a baby cat


 
I meant "then" as "if you suck at personal hygene" but take it however you wish :V

And I don't see how else a foreskin is gross. It's a flap of skin that protects your dick head. People don't cut off their eyelids or rip out fingernails because they're gross.


----------



## Tewin Follow (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> I meant "then" as "if you suck at personal hygene" but take it however you wish :V
> 
> And I don't see how else a foreskin is gross. It's a flap of skin that protects your dick head. People don't cut off their eyelids or rip out fingernails because they're gross.



It's okay, because "IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY" and babies can't complain.


----------



## Thatch (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Harebelle said:


> It's okay, because "IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY" and babies can't complain.


 
Well, I like my foreskin. >:c

It's part of me and I'd prefer it to stay such :V


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> I meant "then" as "if you suck at personal hygene" but take it however you wish :V
> 
> And I don't see how else a foreskin is gross. It's a flap of skin that protects your dick head. People don't cut off their eyelids or rip out fingernails because they're gross.


 
Oh okay
& because it looks gross. I think body hair is gross too and I prefer guys shaved, it's all about personal preference.


----------



## Tycho (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Ima start a movement for the abolishment of cutting off foreskin. IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING.


 

wouldn't go so far as to say THAT, but whatever floats your boat.

(Unless we are speaking of Kimmerset's foreskin, which is indeed a GLORIOUS thing that newfags will never have true knowledge of)

also, there already is a movement to get doctors to stop getting snippy around junior's bippy.


----------



## Tewin Follow (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> Well, I like my foreskin. >:c
> 
> It's part of me and I'd prefer it to stay such :V



What if I don't like it, huh? THEN WHAT?!


Thatch said:


> It's part of me and I'd prefer it to stay such :V



I forgot the :V in my post.


----------



## Thatch (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Harebelle said:


> What if I don't like it, huh? THEN WHAT?!



I'll be sad :c

And will be forced to stay... "self reliant" :V



Harebelle said:


> I forgot the :V in my post.


 
I'm pretty sure I sensed it there. I'm that good :V


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Tycho said:


> there already is a movement to get doctors to stop getting snippy around junior's bippy.


 
Anybody who cares *that much* about a babys dickling needs to have their head slammed against a wall


----------



## Tewin Follow (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> Anybody who cares *that much* about a babys dickling needs to have their head slammed against a wall


 
They're trying to stop people having parts of their body removed without their consent. :/


----------



## Tycho (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Harebelle said:


> They're trying to stop people having parts of their body removed without their consent. :/


 
p much, from what I've gathered

it's about people who are choosing to be less surgery-happy when it comes to kids in general, IIRC, and are trying to get others to see it their way.

Hell, there's a ton of people who are fucking sick of surgeries and antibiotics and oversterilization being so fucking prevalent.  For kids and adults.


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Harebelle said:


> They're trying to stop people having parts of their body removed without their consent. :/


Well I had mine removed and I don't care :S
These people are just bitter cause they were cut and miss that 1 inch of skin they had when they were a baby
It's sad, it's pathetic and they need to stop obsessing over baby dicks

I'm all for circumcision, I don't care if they wanna cut off the skin same as if I don't care if someone wants to dock their dogs tail or crop it's ears.


----------



## RedSavage (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> I'm all for circumcision, I don't care if they wanna cut off the skin same as if I don't care if someone wants to dock their dogs tail or crop it's ears.



Box of shit
opened

Gawd I know too many people who flip their shit about docked tails and clipped ears on dogs. :<


----------



## Volkodav (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CoyoteCaliente said:


> Box of shit
> opened
> 
> Gawd I know too many people who flip their shit about docked tails and clipped ears on dogs. :<


I don't really care if someone wants to do it. I prefer Dobermans ears cropped/tails docked and Rottweilers tails undocked but that's just me... 
Though cropped ears/docked tails make it harder for dogs to communicate and can end up in nasty fights.


----------



## Ethriol (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I think this is incredibly interesting. I'd like to find out what happens when the child grows up.
I was raised by parents who didn't really care about gender roles. I played with My Little Pony, but I also played with Action Man and Hot wheels. I wore skirts but I also wore trousers/dungarees. I Could play princess/mermaid but I could also play in the mud/do whatever the hell I wanted as long as I was safe. I knew I was a girl but I never really understood why other girls acted like they did. It hasn't screwed me up as a late teen, infact I'm alot more self confident than other people I know, especially the GirlyGirls - alot of whom seem to think they're hideous without make up or up-to-date fashion :/. I am what I want to be, and that's a great message for children. Let kids decide what they want to wear or what to play with or watch.
But whatever. I'll admit I only read pages 1-4 of this thread, but It's late and I didn't want to read everything. Those first pages were a bit dumb, though :/ It's not really something to freak out about.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Ethriol said:


> I think this is incredibly interesting. I'd like to find out what happens when the child grows up.
> I was raised by parents who didn't really care about gender roles. I played with My Little Pony, but I also played with Action Man and Hot wheels. I wore skirts but I also wore trousers/dungarees. I Could play princess/mermaid but I could also play in the mud/do whatever the hell I wanted as long as I was safe. I knew I was a girl but I never really understood why other girls acted like they did. It hasn't screwed me up as a late teen, infact I'm alot more self confident than other people I know, especially the GirlyGirls - alot of whom seem to think they're hideous without make up or up-to-date fashion :/. I am what I want to be, and that's a great message for children. Let kids decide what they want to wear or what to play with or watch.
> But whatever. I'll admit I only read pages 1-4 of this thread, but It's late and I didn't want to read everything. Those first pages were a bit dumb, though :/ It's not really something to freak out about.


 IMO, I think letting children act how they want within when it comes to gender roles is better for the child.
For example like how your situation growing up has helped with your self confidence, while on the other hand girls forced to act girlygirly without choice and taught to wear a crapton of makeup cause they are taught by society, "no matter what you will never be pretty" would have far more emotional problems than storm if storm is a girl.
On the a guy being forced to act like manlymanly without choice, forced by their parents to play sports, football and that even if they don't want to would also have problems.
I have seen parents scream at their children during football, etc.
Parents forcing gender roles on children causes more problems than what the parents of this story could have ever done.


----------



## randomaccess (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

just gotta say, this thread is pretty fucking hilarious considering it's subject matter.


----------



## Nokly (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Ah, I heard about this in my Civics class. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it, for people saying it's abuse, I say they're stupid. The parents aren't forcing the kid to dress like a girl, they're letting him do what he wants. The media is just doing what it always does, grabbing for attention, and trying to make people look bad.


----------



## Grey Wolverine (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Lets see what happens.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Nokly said:


> Ah, I heard about this in my Civics class. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it, *for people saying it's abuse, I say they're stupid.* The parents aren't forcing the kid to dress like a girl, they're letting him do what he wants. The media is just doing what it always does, grabbing for attention, and trying to make people look bad.


 I agree with that; I'd have to say the reason why we are even hearing about this is it makes us question our ideas of gender and to society to even question it is taboo.


----------



## Aleu (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> The kids are being home schooled, so how would bullying or such happen when they grow up?


 No. They're not being homeschooled. They're being UNschooled. Different from home schooling. Also they don't know the difference between gender and sex.
My view. They're fucking 'tarded.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I stopped when I read that they're being raised with "Unschooling". Unschooling works if you've already completed Middle School, and have ready access to those newfangled, evil institutions known as Community Libraries and the Internet.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



ramsay_baggins said:


> When he gets an erection it rolls back, so it's not like it gets in the way... *It's just normal and plays a part in protecting the head when not erect **shrug*
> 
> Personally I find circumcision pretty disgusting. It's just wrong in my mind x_x


 
The foreskin also serves another purpose.  You've heard of couples who have gotten "locked" together?  You've wondered how humans managed before "lube" was invented?  Well, the foreskin also prevents "vacuum" and a lack of adequate lubrication from "locking" a man and a woman together.




Ethriol said:


> I think this is incredibly interesting. I'd like to find out what happens when the child grows up.
> I was raised by parents who didn't really care about gender roles. I played with My Little Pony, but I also played with Action Man and Hot wheels. I wore skirts but I also wore trousers/dungarees. I Could play princess/mermaid but I could also play in the mud/do whatever the hell I wanted as long as I was safe. I knew I was a girl but I never really understood why other girls acted like they did. *It hasn't screwed me up as a late teen, infact I'm alot more self confident than other people I know, especially the GirlyGirls - alot of whom seem to think they're hideous without make up or up-to-date fashion :/. I am what I want to be, and that's a great message for children.* Let kids decide what they want to wear or what to play with or watch.
> But whatever. I'll admit I only read pages 1-4 of this thread, but It's late and I didn't want to read everything. Those first pages were a bit dumb, though :/ It's not really something to freak out about.


 
Sounds like you're the proper way to raise a child to not care about gender roles, not what the idiot parents in the OP are doing.




CannonFodder said:


> IMO, I think letting children act how they want within when it comes to gender roles is better for the child.
> For example like how your situation growing up has helped with your self confidence, while on the other hand girls forced to act girlygirly without choice and taught to wear a crapton of makeup cause they are taught by society, "no matter what you will never be pretty" would have far more emotional problems than storm if storm is a girl.
> *On the a guy being forced to act like manlymanly without choice, forced by their parents to play sports, football and that even if they don't want to would also have problems.*
> I have seen parents scream at their children during football, etc.
> Parents forcing gender roles on children causes more problems than what the parents of this story could have ever done.


 
I was never forced to play sports, and my sister was allowed to be a tomgirl... she even stole my t-shirts and gym shorts, and wore them.  Like Ethriol, my sister grew up very self-confident, wearing pants and no make-up.  She raised her kids/my nieces the same way.  All without hiding their sex from others.




Aleu said:


> No. They're not being homeschooled. They're being UNschooled. Different from home schooling. *Also they don't know the difference between gender and sex.*
> My view. They're fucking 'tarded.


 
That is patently obvious.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> I was never forced to play sports, and my sister was allowed to be a tomgirl... she even stole my t-shirts and gym shorts, and wore them.  Like Ethriol, my sister grew up very self-confident, wearing pants and no make-up.  She raised her kids/my nieces the same way.  All without hiding their sex from others.


 Yeah well you're lucky, some of us were forced to play sports and that.
Even though I sucked at football and I'm good at baseball, they wouldn't hear for me not wanting to play football.  Was forced to have buzzcut of military regulations,etc.
Some parents take gender stereotypes and force it as if it were their religion.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Yeah well you're lucky, some of us were forced to play sports and that.
> Even though I sucked at football and I'm good at baseball, they wouldn't hear for me not wanting to play football.  Was forced to have buzzcut of military regulations,etc.
> *Some parents take gender stereotypes and force it as if it were their religion.*


 
Indeed they do.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



			
				Tycho said:
			
		

> If it was YOU or YOUR KID that got a botch job you'd be asking "Why the fuck was this done at all in the first place?"
> 
> Humanity in general has a fucking OBSESSION with cutting things off or out.  It's fucking dumb.  The issue is not that it's just goddamn hood for your willie, it's a piece of your body.  And generally cutting off parts of one's body for perceived convenience, vanity, or a nebulous promise of better health is considered dumb, backwards, borderline savagery and voodoo superstition and idiocy.


 
Statistically speaking the mother has a better chance of having complications and dieing giving birth to her baby boy, vaginally and through C-sections than a boy does of having a botched circumcision.  It's a safe procedure that's been done hundreds of millions of times without complications.  Can there be complications?  Sure, but practically EVERY medical procedure has the possibility of complications.  So I'd feel very safe in having the procedure done on my child.  If there were complications would I be pissed?  No more so than if any other medical malpractice happened within my family.  But if I'm going to be worried about losing body parts, let alone an inch of skin, I should quit my job and lock myself and my family away in our house and make sure there's bubble wrap over everything we own.

You're talking about completely mutilating someone without any purpose other than to prevent infection.  Fact is, 60% of American men alone are circumcised.  It's become an accepted part of society and normal for men.  If this was such a big problem, then you would think more than 40% or so of parents would specifically tell a doctor, "Hey, don't cut my kid."  That simple.

Now, the loudest voices against circumcision aren't the people who've had botched ones, but what you hear are a bunch of healthy, normal individuals who whine and complain because an inch of skin isn't on their dick.  I'd like to know what possesses this person to suddenly become hung up on something that happened several years prior and hasn't really affected their personal lives.  Attention?  Inadequacy?  General boredom?  If they are truly that hung up about it do something about it.

If you're seriously going to get up in arms about someone's body being "mutilated", please take up issue with people who get earrings, tattoos, or other "body modifications".  How dare they cut in through cartilage, break skin on their beautiful, natural bodies.  :V

If you think it's a dumb and barbaric procedure, then don't have it on your kid.  No one's stopping you from saying "no thanks" when the time comes.  I'll be over here with the rest of the male population of the US in saying "Wonder how I'm going to budget gas this summer?"


----------



## Bliss (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

You wouldn't pierce your baby's ears, now would you? :3
How about not doing it in the first place if it's such a 'not-a-big-deal/doesn't-really-matter'?


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Wow don't know what the fuck happened there.

Lizzie, I've seen babies with their ears pierced.  It's not all that uncommon.

And I'll give you the same answer for why it should be done as for why it shouldn't be done.

Because we can.


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

FAF, you somehow never cease to amaze me when a discussion somehow turns to talking about dick preferences.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Indeed they do.


 I made my football team lose a game cause I was so terrible at it, but I wasn't allowed to quit cause, "football is for real men".
Seriously, if your kid single handily costs the football team a victory, it's time to give up the dream of having him a star quarter back in a nfl team.
Gender roles are just fucking stupid imo.


Aleu said:


> FAF, you somehow never cease to amaze me when a discussion somehow turns to talking about dick preferences.


 It's a furry forum, so of course talking about dicks will cum up.


----------



## Volkodav (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

When I have a kid I will raise him as a cat and he can choose whether or not he wants to be a human when hes growed up


----------



## Bambi (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/...le/995112--parents-keep-child-s-gender-secret
> Short version is a couple decided that since raising their boy has gotten negative attention because of the fact they let him dress and that how he wants, and cause of how he likes dressing as a girl and that, they decided that with their newest kid they won't reveal the kid's sex.  So that if Storm(the kid) decides to be girly or boyish while growing up, Storm will be able to chose what gender to be without people knowing what sex Storm was born with.  The reactions by media and people that know the couple is downright fucking ludicrous, ranging from, "They are bad parents who should have their children taken away" to one person saying, "someone should've taken a clothes hanger to the mom".


Well, first and foremost we have to look at this for what it is (what it is to me): a publicity stunt designed to provoke discussion about gender identity, and the socialization and institution of gender role concepts.

 Unfortunately this ruse of instigating a national debate on such issues as gender identity and institutionalized gender belief was put upon the shoulders of someone too young to understand what's going on. I agree with the shit-storms logic, not it's emotions however.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> You wouldn't pierce your baby's ears, now would you? :3
> *How about not doing it in the first place if it's such a 'not-a-big-deal/doesn't-really-matter'?*


 
This is exactly why it shouldn't be done, because it is unnecessary.  Not to mention, you are perfoming an elective proceedure on someone without their consent... which is why, Term, we have men "hung up" on the issue.  Just like we have many people "hung up" on having other things done to them without their willing consent.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Wow don't know what the fuck happened there.
> 
> Lizzie, I've seen babies with their ears pierced.  It's not all that uncommon.
> 
> ...


 
This could also apply to rape.  Couldn't it?




CannonFodder said:


> I made my football team lose a game cause I was so terrible at it, but I wasn't allowed to quit cause, "football is for real men".
> Seriously, if your kid single handily costs the football team a victory, it's time to give up the dream of having him a star quarter back in a nfl team.
> *Gender roles are just fucking stupid imo.*


 
Male is male, female is female... it's all in the biology.  "Gender" as a "role" is just in the head, not in the body.  But social conventions can be very strong, even to the point where parents won't take a clue, and note that their son sucks at football.  A shame, really.


----------



## Bambi (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Male is male, female is female... it's all in the biology.  "Gender" as a "role" is just in the head, not in the body.  But social conventions can be very strong, even to the point where parents won't take a clue, and note that their son sucks at football.  A shame, really.


Depending upon what makes up the individual during the stages of fetal development, gender as a role might not always have a societal causation. However the fact that such arguments are abused by the people who've obviously under gone some not so fortunate events in their lives really troubles me, mostly because when the argument is applicable and explains a situation, it's usually been stolen by someone else for x,y,z_plastic_cause and abused beyond acceptance.

Although, I will say that you're correct Roose in that gender is an issue of biology, but what an individual inherits for traits as passed on from his previous generation, as well as fetal development, as well as societal precepts account for much, much more than sheep and goats in this matter.


----------



## Tycho (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> If you're seriously going to get up in arms about someone's body being "mutilated", please take up issue with people who get earrings, tattoos, or other "body modifications".  How dare they cut in through cartilage, break skin on their beautiful, natural bodies.  :V


 
They want to do it to their OWN bodies, that's their problem.  I have no issue with people getting themselves pierced/inked of their own volition.  This is a matter of parents who are all too often not being given/not seeing the entire picture, just what the doctors want them to look at.  This isn't just circumcision, try as you might to drag the subject back to it to trivialize it with "lol u mad about foreskin?" shit.  (And as for the "budget gas" thing, you're fucking hosed like the rest of us, deal with it, quit worrying about it because there isn't a fucking thing you can do.  Shop smart, drive less, th-th-that's all folks.)


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Tycho said:


> They want to do it to their OWN bodies, that's their problem.  I have no issue with people getting themselves pierced/inked of their own volition.  This is a matter of parents who are all too often not being given/not seeing the entire picture, just what the doctors want them to look at.  This isn't just circumcision, try as you might to drag the subject back to it to trivialize it with "lol u mad about foreskin?" shit.  (And as for the "budget gas" thing, you're fucking hosed like the rest of us, deal with it, quit worrying about it because there isn't a fucking thing you can do.  Shop smart, drive less, th-th-that's all folks.)


 
It's a picture roughly the size of a postage stamp, to keep things in perspective.  :V

And yeah, my line of work requires a good deal of driving which makes a gas budget extremely important considering how sporadic I'll be traveling and when I'm going to need to have enough money to get to work.  Careers are kind of a big deal.



			
				Roose said:
			
		

> This could also apply to rape. Couldn't it?



And science.



			
				CF said:
			
		

> Seriously, if your kid single handily costs the football team a victory, it's time to give up the dream of having him a star quarter back in a nfl team.



You do realize even professionals "drop the ball" and lose a game for their team right?  Your inability to get over your mistake and try to apply that to why you're F'd up in the head says more about you as a person than it does about your gender identity.  :V

General question about the thread now, are these parents so far gone down the hippie train that they're going to make their kid's toys, clothes, etc to try and keep it gender neutral for the time being?  I mean, most infant products aren't exactly "one-size-fits-all" in that way.


----------



## Grey Wolverine (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> Yeah well you're lucky, some of us were forced to play sports and that.
> Even though I sucked at football and I'm good at baseball, they wouldn't hear for me not wanting to play football.  Was forced to have buzzcut of military regulations,etc.
> Some parents take gender stereotypes and force it as if it were their religion.


 
Man, I just realized how lucky I am to have my Dad ad, well, my dad. He is such a cool guy. Basically, he isnt overprotective and dosn't restrict what I can and can't do so long as I want to do it, enjoy doing it, don't get myself killed (cool story about this topic), or is illegal. In those cases, he dose get protective/pissed.


----------



## CannonFodder (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> You do realize even professionals "drop the ball" and lose a game for their team right?
> General question about the thread now, are these parents so far gone down the hippie train that they're going to make their kid's toys, clothes, etc to try and keep it gender neutral for the time being?  I mean, most infant products aren't exactly "one-size-fits-all" in that way.


 How bad I am at football, it could've been replaced by a rock with a jersey on, but that would be insulting to the rock.
I always was a hippy when it came to raising children, I had no problem with my nephew playing with dolls and that.


----------



## Leafblower29 (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Not really sure what to think of all this but personally I would want to be raised as a male with the gender of a male.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 27, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> And science.


 
True... and government, as well.


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



CannonFodder said:


> How bad I am at football, it could've been replaced by a rock with a jersey on, but that would be insulting to the rock.
> I always was a hippy when it came to raising children,* I had no problem with my nephew playing with dolls and that.*



Awww, right. Your 'gay' nephew. :3
 If anyone teases him kick their sorry asses!


----------



## CannonFodder (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> Awww, right. Your 'gay' nephew. :3
> If anyone teases him kick their sorry asses!


 I have 7 nephews and nieces, wrong kid.
The one I am talking about now is spoiled and goes through a fuckton of toys quickly, when he wanted to play with dolls I knew by the end of the week they'd just end up having new toys anyhow.  So if a kid is playing with dolls and by next week it's going to end up in the trash, then what's the point fretting over it being a girl's toy?
Some people act like a boy playing with barbie or a girl playing football is like some absolute no when it comes to them, but seriously do you really think they are thinking, "Wow mom gave me a barbie doll, I must grow up to be a cheerleader and fit into societal norms!"?  Nope, they're just having fun, what is the big fucking deal with letting a girl be a tomboy or a boy act girly?


----------



## Imperial Impact (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

He or she will grow up to be a weather controlling African queen....

It is destined!


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Perverted Impact said:


> He or she will grow up to be a weather controlling African queen....
> 
> It is destined!


 
You mean Modjadji? Sorry, it's matrilinear. :C


----------



## Imperial Impact (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> You mean Modjadji? Sorry, it's matrilinear. :C


 Nope.

I was referring to Storm from X-men.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



			
				Term_the_Schmuck said:
			
		

> Statistically speaking the mother has a better chance of having  complications and dieing giving birth to her baby boy, vaginally and  through C-sections than a boy does of having a botched circumcision.   It's a safe procedure that's been done hundreds of millions of times  without complications.  Can there be complications?  Sure, but  practically EVERY medical procedure has the possibility of  complications.



How is any of that relevant? Caesarian is necessary procedure, not always but usually. Circumcision is completely unnecessary. There is no reason for it. The risks of a caesarian are weighed against the high risks of problems in childbirth. The risks of circumcision are against the completely benign act of leaving it there. There's no justification for the procedure.



			
				Term_the_Schmuck said:
			
		

> Now, the loudest voices against circumcision aren't the people who've  had botched ones, but what you hear are a bunch of healthy, normal  individuals who whine and complain because an inch of skin isn't on  their dick.  I'd like to know what possesses this person to suddenly  become hung up on something that happened several years prior and hasn't  really affected their personal lives.



It's not about it having a real effect. It's a question of personal autonomy. It doesn't matter if it happened years ago or not. It's that the procedure itself is immoral as it forced upon someone with no consideration of their opinion. It's no more right to do it to a child than to circumcise a 40-year-old man against their wishes.


----------



## Sai_Wolf (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Not even going to attempt to wade into the whole "Is raising the kid gender nuetral right?" debate. Holy shit.

But what I will say is that I honestly can't see the couple as more than attention getters. 

Why in the world would you go through such pains to keep your kid's biological gender such a secret, and then turn around and say that you wish people didn't care about it so much?

Newsflash: By keeping 'secrets', you openly put a big red target on your kid. Now EVERYONE will want to know, thus defeating your so called 'purpose'.

I personally cannot condone using an infant as a political statement. That seems wrong to me.


----------



## Tycho (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Sai_Wolf said:


> Newsflash: By keeping 'secrets', you openly put a big red target on your kid. Now EVERYONE will want to know, thus defeating your so called 'purpose'.


 
thisthisthis.  fuck you this button.

NOTHING is more interesting than something someone does not want you to know about.  There's a reason "hiding in plain sight" works as well as it does.  

And I can't imagine anyone in their right mind condoning the use of an infant as a springboard to fame/notoriety and a sociopolitical firebrand.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> How is any of that relevant?



Relevant due to how it was essentially being implied by Tycho that it was a dangerous procedure and that after he shared some of the complications with the procedure with me, I would suddenly change my stance on whether or not I'd have my kid get a circumcision.  These facts are relevant is describing the EXTREMELY low risk of something going wrong and that to use the argument of possible malpractice against circumcisions is extremely weak due to the fact that complications can and will happen with essentially any medical procedure, since that is the nature of the business.  But probabilities that these complications will happen to you or someone you know is extremely unlikely.

Is it a completely unnecessary procedure?  Maybe.  I'm not convinced that there is no benefit to getting a kid circumcised.  In any case, I'd get one on my boy done anyway simply due to the statistics of men who do have them.  I'd rather my kid get one since that's what's been decided with all the boys in my family.  And if he complains later in life about the decision, I'll smack him over the head and say "find something else to occupy your time instead of thinking about your dick."



> It's not about it having a real effect. It's a question of personal autonomy. It doesn't matter if it happened years ago or not. It's that the procedure itself is immoral as it forced upon someone with no consideration of their opinion. It's no more right to do it to a child than to circumcise a 40-year-old man against their wishes.


 
Immoral according to your opinion.  There's nothing objective about where you think circumcisions stand on a morality scale.  You of all people who champion how it's not immoral to have sex with a dog should realize that much.  As far as I'm concerned, as the parents of a newborn they should reserve the right whether or not they want the procedure done to their child.


----------



## Mentova (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

This is stupid

don't use your kids as an experiment for media attention

though it is good to not force gender roles on them


----------



## Riyeko (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Wreth said:


> I think this neglects that someone can feel completely male, but like wearing dresses, and someone can love cars and sports and guns and feel completely female.



As a tom boy, you have no idea how hard it was for me to want to fix or work on cars, getting myself elbow deep in grease and gasoline. You have no idea how hard it was for me to say "oh my god that is a sweet looking car! That is the coolest chevy ive seen today, what is that a 1952?".. and not have someone make fun of me or harass me because im talking about cars and i have a vagina.

I have two boys and one girl.
They are, boy whos 6, boy whos 4, and girl who will be 3 in July.
I raised my sons regular.. they all have cars and trucks, and guns and motorcycles, they even have lightsabers.
I raised my daughter to be a girl.  Dollies, bears, princess stuff, tinkerbell.. etc.
Why did I raise my daughter so hard core to be a girl?
Because I dont want her to sit around in class and have the _other girls and guys_ in the class room laugh and make fun of her for liking hunting, fishing, automobiles, and every other male oriented activity.
I dont want her to be hated by every fucking female in the entire fucking school because she has more guy friends, who happen to have jealous bitchy girlfriends that will _always_ think that she is after "their man" or fucking whatever.

But .. I think that these parents are actually not thinking about the future.
I understand that gender neutrality is a good thing. In some cases its great. Good for them for realizing this.
But to raise a child, that doesnt know what his/her toes are, cant even count to five, and probably cant even say mama or dada or doggie or kitty, is just kind of pushing it.
Think about, if the parents cant afford to home school anymore. That child is going to go to public school one day.
Then the shit is going to hit the fan because, he/she is wearing guy/girl clothes and small children can be _cruel_. 
I dont know.. im looking at it as ... my god this child is going to get hurt when he gets into the real world with his peers, because hes going to be so much different.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Riyeko said:


> As a tom boy, you have no idea how hard it was for me to want to fix or work on cars, getting myself elbow deep in grease and gasoline. You have no idea how hard it was for me to say "oh my god that is a sweet looking car! That is the coolest chevy ive seen today, what is that a 1952?".. and not have someone make fun of me or harass me because im talking about cars and i have a vagina.


 
You should've been born Italian.


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> In any case, I'd get one on my boy done anyway simply due to the statistics of men who do have them.


You know that like +80% of the world's men are uncircumcised? The practice is dying in the US too. Less that 40% get it done to their childs. The number is bigger in the Midwest and Southeast and smaller in more 'liberal' areas.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> As far as I'm concerned, as the parents of a newborn they should reserve the right whether or not they want the procedure done to their child.


*facepalm* 

You really don't get it, do you? "Hurrdurr this has been the *tradition* in the family for centuries!"
Great. Let's put them wear lip plates too. D:

I'm not American. In practice this is not done here unless there's a *medical reason*, like phimosis, that *requires* it. Cutting your healthy baby, born that way, for reason like 'tradition' doesn't really make sense to me. Doesn't probably make sense to majority of people if they'd _know_ that it's unnecessary. I remember, during a conversation, someone telling that their father simply didn't know anything else. _Like it's some kind of religion!_


----------



## Riyeko (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> You know that like +80% of the world's men are uncircumcised? The practice is dying in the US too. Less that 40% get it done to their childs. The number is bigger in the Midwest and Southeast and smaller in more 'liberal' areas.
> Doesn't probably make sense to majority of people if they'd _know_ that it's unnecessary. I remember, during a conversation, someone telling that their father simply didn't know anything else. _Like it's some kind of religion!_



The only reason I did it to my two boys is the fact that.. theres a whole lot more care going on under the diaper for a newborn when theyre uncircumsized, vs when they are.
I know it sounds lazy, but.. I just didnt want to spend the extra time to care for them when I had so many other things going  on (that were also related to the baby).
I honestly, on top of breast feeding, having a new baby in the house (with or without older children), having family up my ass about it (you have no idea how fucking retarded my mother is), and just overall caring for a newborn...
I just didnt want to have to deal with one more thing.
*shrug*


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Riyeko said:


> The only reason I did it to my two boys is the fact that.. theres a whole lot more care going on under the diaper for a newborn when theyre uncircumsized, vs when they are.


Care to educate me?


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> You know that like +80% of the world's men are uncircumcised? The practice is dying in the US too. Less that 40% get it done to their childs. The number is bigger in the Midwest and Southeast and smaller in more 'liberal' areas.



And yet still an average of 60% of males in the US have been circumcised.  Frankly I don't give a shit what the average number men from Saudi Arabia, Japan, or Finland are circumcised.  Last time I checked, I lived in America and abide by the customs here.  I don't expect you to get that since you are from Finland, just as you or I can't understand why women would subject themselves to hiding their faces in robes or wearing brass rings around their necks in other countries.  



> *facepalm*
> 
> You really don't get it, do you? "Hurrdurr this has been the *tradition* in the family for centuries!"
> Great. Let's put them wear lip plates too. D:
> ...


 
Or it's just something that's done and is just an accepted part of being a male child in your family/society.  Maybe fitting into some level of normalcy may not matter to you.  And that's fine.  But frankly, I'd rather my kid fit in with the lot than stand out for something like that.  And, as a parent, I still reserve the right to raise my child.  The argument of "HURRDURR THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE IN FINLAND" isn't going to drastically change how I raise my child.  My best example of how to raise a kid is from my own father, who did a good job with me as far as I'm concerned and certainly don't regret him pushing me to do the things I've done, taught me what he has or make the decisions he has for me.  And I'm going to try and do the same for my kid.


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> _Last time I checked, I lived in America and abide by the customs here._   I don't expect you to get that since you are from Finland, just as you  or *I can't understand why women would subject themselves to hiding their  faces in robes or wearing brass rings around their necks in other  countries.*


*Yeah, a mystery isn't it?* 
_
Injustice anywhere is threat to justice everywhere._
I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut when hypocrizy runs rampant. Last time I checked the customs was that no has the right to violate your body for unnecessary reasons.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Or it's just something that's done and is just an accepted part of being a male child in your family/society.


Thank goodness not so much anymore. Like a few things considered inhuman by developing societies.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I'd rather my kid fit in with the lot than stand out for something like that.


The normalcy is clearly going to be uncircumcised.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> And, as a parent, I still reserve the right to raise my child.


As a child deserves the right for his/her own decision to be circumcised as it's not done for anything but to serve an entitlement. That's what it sounds like, darling.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The argument of "HURRDURR THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE IN FINLAND" isn't going to drastically change how I raise my child.


People in this thread has given quite a few other good reasons.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> My best example of how to raise a kid is from my own father, who did a good job with me as far as I'm concerned and certainly don't regret him pushing me to do the things I've done, taught me what he has or make the decisions he has for me.  And I'm going to try and do the same for my kid.


Goodie, how to do a thing different with this circumcision when you've been presented an option that's more prevalent and updated and human?


----------



## Bambi (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

IMHO, circumcision should be done later in life; I agree with some doctors when they say it's best to do it at an age when the individual can consent to the procedure. 

Although if there's an element of culture that dictates to the parents responsible that such a procedure is appropriate and should be done at birth, then I have no qualms provided they've (the legal guardians/parents) thought out the sexual, social and personal risks for the child ahead of time.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> *Yeah, a mystery isn't it?*
> _
> Injustice anywhere is threat to justice everywhere._
> I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut when hypocrizy runs rampant. Last time I checked the customs was that no has the right to violate your body for unnecessary reasons.



Many choose to go along with those traditions on their own accord.  The latter example being from the Kayan Lahwi tribe who see the rings and elongated necks caused see them as a symbol of beauty, many parents beginning their daughters on the rings at the ages of two or five.  The alternative of waiting until 12 is much more painful.



> Thank goodness not so much anymore. Like a few things considered inhuman by developing societies.



Considered by you.  Not by me, or a good deal of other people in the United States today.



> The normalcy is clearly going to be uncircumcised.



In Finland.  Not here.



> As a child deserves the right for his/her own decision to be circumcised as it's not done for anything but to serve an entitlement. That's what it sounds like, darling.



There's no precedent that a child has the mindset to make that kind of decision.  This is a decision based on what the parents would like for their child's future, hunny.



> People in this thread has given quite a few other good reasons.



Many of which is "IT'S NOT DONE HERE!" "NO MEDICAL NEED" "THERE ARE COMPLICATIONS", all of which I take into consideration, but I still choose to have the procedure done to my child for them to live as an average male in the United States.



> Goodie, how to do a thing different with this circumcision when you've been presented an option that's more prevalent and updated and human?


 
You got one thing right.  It's certainly an option.  As far as "prevalent, updated, and human" is either not true in the US or simply your opinion.


----------



## Thatch (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> But frankly, I'd rather my kid fit in with the lot than stand out for something like that.


 
I don't think being uncircumsized is something that makes you stand out (hurr, insert pun here). Unless showing your dick to your classmates is also a common custom in USA.


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> In Finland.  Not here.


 Nooope. Exactly there. Check American Pediatric Association.



> *There's no precedent that a child has the mindset to make that kind of decision. * This is a decision based on what the parents would like for their child's future, hunny.


Mindset not to get himself/herself circumcised? A child has no mindset to not get his/her toes cut off neither, so why not do it if it would be a cultural norm?



> Many of which is "IT'S NOT DONE HERE!" "NO MEDICAL NEED" "THERE ARE COMPLICATIONS", all of which I take into consideration, but *I still choose to have the procedure done to my child for them to live as an average male in the United States.*


... Average male male is soon to be uncircumcised in the US. Not in 2100, like, _soon._

---

Since you seem to fanny your entitlement to have your child circumcised...

*Lizzie's Story time! <3<3<3*

Picture Africa! Precent, right now.
A 8-year-old girl/boy asks her/his mother does she/he have to get circumcised when that white woman, who lectured the village, told that it should not be done because of possible complications and unnecessary suffering.
Answer? _"It is our customs."

_If you have any concept how wrong this is, how could you use exactly the same argument on the other side of the world? Where you have, in comparison, a _huge_ perspective! Oh yeah... Because you _can. _


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> Nooope. Exactly there. Check American Pediatric Association.



I don't think APA is the average American male.  Or a statistics bureau.



> Mindset not to get himself/herself circumcised? A child has no mindset to not get his/her toes cut off neither, so why not do it if it would be a cultural norm?



Good question.  Ask that again when that actually happens.



> Average male male is soon to be uncircumcised in the US. Not in 2100, like, _soon._
> 
> Define soon.  If it's not tomorrow, or 5-10 years from now, my stance isn't likely to change when that time comes.
> 
> ...


 
Your story makes absolutely no sense.  Next time try harder, with an easy to follow beginning, middle, and end.

What are you saying? That white people going to Africa and telling the locals they should not get circumcised because of x, y, and z?  Should we also reserve the right to tell them how to live their lives?  That they need to follow Jesus?  If it's their custom to get circumcised and the procedure is performed up to medical standards of sterilization and safety, then we don't have the right to tell them they can't have the procedure done.  As far as I'm aware, Amnesty International at least hasn't recognized male circumcision as a human rights violation, so if it's being done correctly, isn't considered morally wrong in the culture, and isn't having a completely negative effect of the individual or society as a whole, then I think you're just being nosy and intrusive in other people's lives and culture.


----------



## Bliss (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> What are you saying? That white people going to Africa and telling the locals they should not get circumcised because of x, y, and z?  Should we also reserve the right to tell them how to live their lives?  That they need to follow Jesus?  If it's their custom to get circumcised and the procedure is performed up to medical standards of sterilization and safety, then we don't have the right to tell them they can't have the procedure done.  As far as I'm aware, *Amnesty International at least hasn't recognized male circumcision as a human rights violation*, so if it's being done correctly, isn't considered morally wrong in the culture, and isn't having a completely negative effect of the individual or society as a whole, then I think you're just being nosy and intrusive in other people's lives and culture.


 Because it would be impossible to follow/accept that rule in those countries (+ USA).
On unrelated note; UN majority deemed that killing people because they're gay is ok. Majority, y'know.

About pushing our western agenda and human rights and stuff on other cultures: we don't have to. Usually education, better living standards and general high welfare 'increase' that. People tend to get a perspective. 

That's what happening in the Middle Earth right now. :V

_PS. I'd rather have them secular humanists. :V_


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> Because it would be impossible to follow/accept that rule in those countries (+ USA).
> On unrelated note; UN majority deemed that killing people because they're gay is ok. Majority, y'know.



Amnesty International isn't involved in making "rules".  You don't even know what the organization is, do you?  They already have taken a stance against female circumcision and rape as a corrective measure, both of which are practiced in the Middle East to this day.  Amnesty International isn't in the business of standing up for human rights based on popularity in different regions.



> About pushing our western agenda and human rights and stuff on other cultures: we don't have to. Usually education, better living standards and general high welfare 'increase' that. People tend to get a perspective.



Yet your "story" is essentially that of a Western missionary coming to Africa to push their beliefs on other people.  So which is it that you'd like to happen?  :V


----------



## Riyeko (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> Care to educate me?


 
Well, im not the one that wants to be pulling back my sons foreskin n shit and having to clean _inside_ the thing so he can be clean.
With everything else on my plate, touching my sons penis like that is not exactly on my top list of priorities.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> You should've been born *Italian.*


 
That was a wonderful clip... thanks for the laugh, Term.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Good question.  *Ask that again when that actually happens.*


 
No need, here you go, Term:

http://www.neatorama.com/2010/07/07/the-bygone-practice-of-foot-binding-in-china/

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/09/16/the-painful-tradition-of-foot-binding-in-china/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding




Riyeko said:


> Well, im not the one that wants to be pulling back my sons foreskin n shit and having to clean _inside_ the thing so he can be clean.
> With everything else on my plate, *touching my sons penis like that is not exactly on my top list of priorities*.


 
You still need to touch it to clean it, circumsized or not.  And it takes, what?... less than two seconds to pull it back?


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> No need, here you go, Term:


 
The question raised was for toes to be cut off, presumably at birth, not foot binding.


----------



## Grey Wolverine (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Why are we arguing about circumcision? Really, what is the big deal. I was circumcised and I don't care. What is even the point of this argument? Elaborate, please.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The question raised was for toes to be cut off, presumably at birth, not foot binding.


 
Concept is the same... you wanted something else other than circumcision that was being forced on children.  Foot binding qualifies.  It's the closest to having your toes cut off you can get without actually having your toes cut off.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 28, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Concept is the same... you wanted something else other than circumcision that was being forced on children.  Foot binding qualifies.  It's the closest to having your toes cut off you can get without actually having your toes cut off.


 
Close but very clearly not the same.  Foot binding can be fixed via surgery should it be instituted on someone, or if stopped early enough the process could be reversed.  Having your toes cut off, like foreskin, can not be readily fixed.  And as far as I'm aware, no civilization removed toes for the purpose beauty or fitting in with the crowd.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case foot binding is an ancient practice which has essentially been abolished everywhere as far as I'm aware.  If I was Chinese, living in China in the 19th Century, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it because it's CHINA IN THE 19th CENTURY.  Policies and customs change, I've acknowledged this fact on several occasions.  If she was asking me what I'd think about some small sect continuing this practice being done in America, yeah, I'd have a problem with it, because THIS IS AMERICA AND NOT CHINA IN THE 19th CENTURY.  

As it stands right now, there isn't a civilization, currently which endorses this, or the complete removal of toes and is an accepted part of any society.  Circumcision, meanwhile, is accepted, so much so that a majority of American males are cut and go about their lives without having to dwell on this fact, nor is there a blatant, out and out way to visually see that said person had the procedure done, unless they expose themselves, unlike foot binding where the process is exhibited ALL THE TIME.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Close but very clearly not the same.  Foot binding can be fixed via surgery should it be instituted on someone, or if stopped early enough the process could be reversed.  Having your toes cut off, like foreskin, can not be readily fixed.  And as far as I'm aware, no civilization removed toes for the purpose beauty or fitting in with the crowd.  *Correct me if I'm wrong.*



I don't think you are... I've never heard of such a thing, but foot binding was the closest I could come to the cigar.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> In any case foot binding is an ancient practice which has essentially been abolished everywhere as far as I'm aware.  If I was Chinese, living in China in the 19th Century, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it because it's CHINA IN THE 19th CENTURY.  *Policies and customs change, I've acknowledged this fact on several occasions.*  If she was asking me what I'd think about some small sect continuing this practice being done in America, yeah, I'd have a problem with it, because THIS IS AMERICA AND NOT CHINA IN THE 19th CENTURY.



Yes, they do.  And it seems you agree with present customs, since you express your choice to follow, rather than to "fight" for change.  This could be your point of difference.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> As it stands right now, there isn't a civilization, currently which endorses this, or the complete removal of toes and is an accepted part of any society.  *Circumcision, meanwhile, is accepted*, so much so that a majority of American males are cut and go about their lives without having to dwell on this fact, nor is there a blatant, out and out way to visually see that said person had the procedure done, unless they expose themselves, unlike foot binding where the process is exhibited ALL THE TIME.


 
Yes, it is, but like quite a few issues, there are people who think it shouldn't be accepted.  Some, apparently, quite strongly.  Me, I just don't see the reason to do it, when there isn't a medical need... or when the child is too young to give consent.  And parents just give the opinion that they're "too busy" to bother with the extra two seconds it would take to clean.  That's just lazy talk.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Grey Wolverine said:


> Why are we arguing about circumcision? Really, what is the big deal. I was circumcised and I don't care. What is even the point of this argument? Elaborate, please.


 
Ewww you are cut... EWWWWWWW.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Yes, they do.  And it seems you agree with present customs, since you express your choice to follow, rather than to "fight" for change.  This could be your point of difference.



I don't really see why it HAS to change personally.  I want the best for my kid, and to me, that involves, being cut.  Now if tomorrow Amnesty International, the US government, and so on take a stance against male circumcision, I'd abandon my choice since it'd be formally against the law and established moral and ethical codes.  Policies and ethics change and I'm not going to get uppity over that kind of change in policy.



> Yes, it is, but like quite a few issues, there are people who think it shouldn't be accepted.  Some, apparently, quite strongly.  Me, I just don't see the reason to do it, when there isn't a medical need... or when the child is too young to give consent.  And parents just give the opinion that they're "too busy" to bother with the extra two seconds it would take to clean.  That's just lazy talk.


 
I just want my kid to fit in, grow up with the same tools, knowledge, and opportunities I had when I was growing up.  This is a personal choice I think my son would benefit from in a subtle way, by no means being a drastic life-altering decision.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I don't really see why it HAS to change personally.  *I want the best for my kid, and to me, that involves, being cut.*  Now if tomorrow Amnesty International, the US government, and so on take a stance against male circumcision, I'd abandon my choice since it'd be formally against the law and established moral and ethical codes.  Policies and ethics change and I'm not going to get uppity over that kind of change in policy.


 
How do you know that's best?  Why not allow a child to choose when they're old enough to do so?  No, social "convention" doesn't HAVE to change, but then, no law is forcing you to do it, either.  To me, it just seems the whole issue to you involves social order, doing it "just because", rather than doing it for a valuable reason.  If it is not "life-altering", illegal, and only gives what you term a "subtle" benefit, why do you care to support circumcision so strongly?




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I just want my kid to fit in, grow up with the same tools, knowledge, and opportunities I had when I was growing up.  This is a personal choice I think my son would benefit from in a subtle way, *by no means being a drastic life-altering decision*.


 
Still, it wasn't an option you gave him.  Your choice, not his.  Just like those Chinese families who didn't give their daughters a choice as to whether they wanted their feet bound or not (though that decision was life-altering).  All because it became the "social norm" in their day.  For some imagined (or even real) social benefit.  I fit in quite well myself, being uncut... had the same tools, knowledge and opportunities I would've had if I had been cut.  You say you want what's best, but then, you also say "what's best" is to "fit in".  Fit in to what?


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Ewww you are uncut... EWWWWWWW.


 I fixed it


Roose Hurro said:


> How do you know that's best?


*I* want the best for my kid, *and to me*, that involves, *being cut.*

There's your answer.
Some breed standards say that the dog must have cropped ears. Some dog owners may get their dogs ears cropped for aesthetic reasons or because that's what the breed standard says. It doesn't matter if someone wants to get their dogs ears cropped or their kids dick snipped, because later on after that pain goes away, the animal and kid don't care... unless.... unless that kid grows up to be a sad, pathetic adult who obsesses over an inch of skin he lost as a baby.
Also, don't compare a baby who doesn't understand/know what you're doing to a young girl who understands what footbinding does/the pain involved and can have an opinion on whether or not she likes the idea of having her feet bound. A baby just gurgles and barfs on itself, it doesn't care about circumcision.

Why does being cut matter so much? Does it ruin your marriage? Does it make you lose your job? I just don't understand it. Babies and young kids don't like dentist visits but sometimes you just gotta tell them to man the fuck up and deal with it because it has to be done. Whether it's aesthetic or not, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Merged psots.


----------



## Bliss (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I want to have Schmuck's babies so I can give him the finger when he goes on with this circumcision stuff. No, that wasn't a date advertisement. :V

Seriously, lazy, dear people. Get up your ass, go to the bathroom, pull your wienerschnitzel out under the tap, and scrub.
If that is too hard I'm more than happy to take a plane to wherever you are and do it for you. For I am a _*nice person!*_


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> I fixed it
> 
> *I* want the best for my kid, *and to me*, that involves, *being cut.*
> 
> ...


 
I questioned how he knows being cut is the best for his kid... what that line said wasn't an answer to that question, it was the whole reason for the question I asked.  It was a statement that made quite clear, in Term's opinion, _being cut_ is WHAT'S best... a statement made without context.  My question is asking for context.

And the issue comparing circumcision to foot binding is not the age/ability to voice an opinion, but the fact, in both cases, this is an unnecessary social practice forced on the baby/child without their consent.  However, your comparison of circumcision to dental visits has no bearing... we take our children to the dentist whether they like it or not for reasons of health, to either clean their teeth so they remain healthy, or to fix a problem.  We don't tell the dentist to fill, cap or pull a perfectly healthy (and functional) tooth, do we?  So, why do we tell the doctor to remove a perfectly healthy (not to mention functional) piece of skin?


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> I questioned how he knows being cut is the best for his kid... what that line said wasn't an answer to that question, it was the whole reason for the question I asked.  It was a statement that made quite clear, in Term's opinion, _being cut_ is WHAT'S best... a statement made without context.  My question is asking for context.
> 
> And the issue comparing circumcision to foot binding is not the age/ability to voice an opinion, but the fact, in both cases, this is an unnecessary social practice forced on the baby/child without their consent.  However, your comparison of circumcision to dental visits has no bearing... we take our children to the dentist whether they like it or not for reasons of health, to either clean their teeth so they remain healthy, or to fix a problem.  We don't tell the dentist to fill, cap or pull a perfectly healthy (and functional) tooth, do we?  So, why do we tell the doctor to remove a perfectly healthy (not to mention functional) piece of skin?


 
That's just what he thinks, that's his opinion. You may think that not getting your kid circumcised is best for your kid and you would be within your rights to feel that way as well.
Foot-binding is completely unnecessary in my opinion, but in some cultures it isn't. Circumcision isn't necessary either IMO but I think it's fine. We take our kids to get their teeth drilled whether they like it or not and we also get them circumcised whether they like it or not. Both can be done for health reasons.
Braces, for example, are not always done for health reasons and sometimes are done for aesthetic reasons. My sister got braces yet she was having no trouble eating with her teeth, even though they were a bit crooked.. but that doesn't mean she wanted them or liked them.

_"We don't tell the dentist to fill, cap or pull a perfectly healthy (and functional) tooth, do we?"_
Some people do for aesthetic reasons.


----------



## Fiesta_Jack (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I'm circumcised and I've become rather happy I am. The last guy I was with had problems with his foreskin; there's apparently a lot of pain and discomfort that can be caused by having it. When I talked to another friend, he told me his ex had the same problem; painful foreskin problems. I'd rather save myself the hassle and not have it. 

To those who say it's better to wait until the child is old enough to make the decision; at that point, it's pretty much determined that they would be uncircumcised. Because who in their right fucking mind would agree to getting it cut while they're old enough to remember that shit?


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Fiesta_Jack said:


> To those who say it's better to wait until the child is old enough to make the decision; at that point, it's pretty much determined that they would be uncircumcised. Because who in their right fucking mind would agree to getting it cut while they're old enough to remember that shit?


I think it's a sneaky way for them to push for anti-circumcision... IMO at least


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> Because it would be impossible to follow/accept that rule in those countries (+ USA).
> On unrelated note; UN *majority* deemed that killing people because they're gay is ok. Majority, y'know.


No, not quite the majority.



> The tiny West African nation of Benin (on behalf of the UN's African  Group) proposed an amendment to strike sexual minorities from the  resolution. The amendment was adopted with 79 votes in favor, 70  against, 17 abstentions and 26 absent.
> 
> Huffington Post Excerpt


Rhetoric's a little out there, particularly because there's only a difference of nine votes. Even if you included the seventeen abstentions with the seventy-nine votes, making for a total of ninety-six, that's still a difference of twenty-six; so not quite the majority. What has essentially happened here with that decision is our willingness (the west) to drop the ball.

Situations like these are still vastly under-reported in favor of journalists getting beaned by shoes or chased around by militia, and since I am sure that even the worst and most fanatically opposed to bringing the international community closer together would find some sustenance on the issue of the United Nations actually "doing nothing", stories like these have no other reason to be under-reported than it might make the sand people shoot at us again.



Lizzie said:


> About pushing our western agenda and human rights and stuff on other cultures: we don't have to. Usually education, better living standards and general high welfare 'increase' that. People tend to get a perspective.


Not always.

Here in the United States we still don't have a party that's vocal and credible enough to successfully argue homosexual, bisexual, trans-gender rights to the ignorant, even though we're supposed to be educated adults that live in a country whose living standards are much better than x_country, again I digress, our "western" systems of political governance still have flaws. 

On another note, we're also afraid to legalize marijuana, as we're also too afraid to confront the issue of child sex trades here in the United States. We're also afraid to assert some ethical authority in the area of free speech versus speech which intrudes on an individuals right to privacy, and we're very afraid of guns, even though it's mostly the idiots who wield them that make for most of our problems, we're still afraid of guns in a very, non-logical sense. So we can't exactly say for certain that we're perfect, or better, because just like everyone else in those "middle eastern countries", we're still human, sometimes easy to frighten and rally to plastic causes, and still very liable to fall prey to someone elses bullshit culture war.

I know we know that already, but it's just something that's worth mentioning once in this thread.





Fiesta_Jack said:


> To those who say it's better to wait  until the child is old enough to make the decision; at that point, it's  pretty much determined that they would be uncircumcised. Because who in  their right fucking mind would agree to getting it cut while they're old  enough to remember that shit?


I've known of quite a few people  that have gotten circumcised at the age of eighteen or twenty one; it's a  choice, and some of them want that. Some people voluntarily seek body  modifications and I see circumcision relative to that, so we can't say  they wouldn't want that, or that maybe they wouldn't want to think about  that when the option is there on the table.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Fiesta_Jack said:


> To those who say it's better to wait until the child is old enough to make the decision; at that point, it's pretty much determined that they would be uncircumcised. *Because who in their right fucking mind would agree to getting it cut while they're old enough to remember that shit?*


 
And yet, even though the pain and discomfort is the same, we think it's okay, because the child "won't remember".  Thing is, circumcision is a traumatic event for a baby who doesn't know what's going on.  Not to mention, the whole "asthetic" support fails, because we don't let our kids run around naked.  Only place it might matter is in the locker room, but by that time, the kid should be adjusted enough... and old enough to be taught that it doesn't matter.  But then, as Clayton said, it's just opinion.  And ultimately not all that important, even though we may disagree.  Plenty of happy and healthy boys on both sides, far as I can see.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



			
				Fiesta Jack said:
			
		

> To those who say it's better to wait until the child is old enough to  make the decision; at that point, it's pretty much determined that they  would be uncircumcised. Because who in their right fucking mind would  agree to getting it cut while they're old enough to remember that shit?



I think that tells you something important about it.



			
				Bambi said:
			
		

> Rhetoric's a little out there, particularly because there's only a  difference of nine votes. Even if you included the seventeen abstentions  with the seventy-nine votes, making for a total of ninety-six, that's  still a difference of twenty-six; so not quite the majority. What has  essentially happened here with that decision is our willingness (the  west) to drop the ball.



How you figure that? I consider the West to be Europe and North America. I can't see those countries in the list of absentees or those abstaining. They all, or vast majority, seem to have been present and voted to protect homosexuals.


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Not to mention, the whole "asthetic" support fails


Meh, some parents might do it because they had it done to them, or just because they want their kid to be circumcised. 


Roose Hurro said:


> Only place it might matter is in the locker room, but by that time, the kid should be adjusted enough... and old enough to be taught that it doesn't matter.


This gave me a laugh.


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> How you figure that? I consider the West to be Europe and North America. I can't see those countries in the list of absentees or those abstaining. They all, or vast majority, seem to have been present and voted to protect homosexuals.


Well, think about it: we're chief among the arguers for minority rights, and yet we can't argue those rights succinctly to the people who don't believe in them? We can't give a country like Iran the economic incentives to reduce the criminal status of homosexuality, or something in exchange for more lenient laws that the international community recognize as being more humane? We can't approach a country like Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, and give them the stepping stones with which they can effectively balance out there religious/political traditions with a recognition of human rights, *without* sacrificing some tradition?

We've tried somethings, but for being the most prominent arguers for minority rights, we haven't tried everything, and we haven't tried hard enough. We've dropped the ball, and now we're no longer covering that issue nationally. We should start again. Concessions and change will only occur through conflict and a will to progress. We should not allow, in the wake of the Arab Spring, people in those countries the ability to weld and or confuse democracy with fundamentalist appeasing theocracies.


----------



## Thatch (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

ITT: People advocating circumcision just because they were circumcised.

Guys, you didn't decide to be circumcised, so you really don't have to rationalise why you're less of a man now. You can just blame your parents :V


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> ITT: People advocating circumcision just because they were circumcised.
> 
> Guys, you didn't decide to be circumcised, so you really don't have to rationalise why you're less of a man now. You can just blame your parents :V


 
I'm advocating circumcision because I see children as dogs and I have nothing against cropping or docking a dog.
Also, when that kid hits 18 he's gonna have the type of cock I like and then there's more fresh meat for me.


----------



## Redregon (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

i wonder.. since it's been a while since i read the article and it may be covered and i missed it... but, are they aiming to let the kid dress in girls clothes or boys clothes if otherwise or are they choosing specifically gender NEUTRAL clothing and such for their child? 

cause i can see myself getting gender neutral clothing for any kids i may have (purely hypothetical since i am not going to) but that'd be more because i'd be too damn lazy to go out and buy more on top of that if ever there was handmedowns to any other kids. (i remember getting handmedowns of girlish shirts and shit... i swear my mother must have wanted me to be a girl.)


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I would never ever let my son wear girly clothes, not even if they looked a bit girly. I want a manly son not no prissy lil hoe
Also I would let my daughter wear guys clothes in hopes that it would cause her vag to turn into a penis and then I'd have a son


----------



## Thatch (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> I'm advocating circumcision because I see children as dogs and I have nothing against cropping or docking a dog.
> Also, when that kid hits 18 he's gonna have the type of cock I like and then there's more fresh meat for me.


 
And then you'll cut it off and pickle it in a jar, only to suck on it when you're blue.

Oh hey, I can be edgy and controversial too. Who knew.


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Thatch said:


> And then you'll cut it off and pickle it in a jar, only to suck on it when you're blue.
> 
> Oh hey, I can be edgy and controversial too. Who knew.


 Hahah ew no that's gross

and i don't get how i'm trying to be edgy and controversial there, i was merely saying it cause it made me laugh
most of the shit i say is because it makes me lol


----------



## CannonFodder (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Redregon said:


> i wonder.. since it's been a while since i read the article and it may be covered and i missed it... but, are they aiming to let the kid dress in girls clothes or boys clothes if otherwise _*or are they choosing specifically gender NEUTRAL clothing and such for their child? *_
> 
> cause i can see myself getting gender neutral clothing for any kids i may have (purely hypothetical since i am not going to) but that'd be more because i'd be too damn lazy to go out and buy more on top of that if ever there was handmedowns to any other kids. (i remember getting handmedowns of girlish shirts and shit... i swear my mother must have wanted me to be a girl.)


 Gender neutral clothing and such


----------



## Aleu (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

IS there such thing as gender neutral clothing? I might've missed them because I normally pay attention to the male T-shirts with the band logos.


----------



## Thatch (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Aleu said:


> IS there such thing as gender neutral clothing? I might've missed them because I normally pay attention to the male T-shirts with the band logos.


 
I'm p sure that "male" clothing is pretty gender-neutral.

There's normal clothes and feminine clothes :V


----------



## Grey Wolverine (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



dinosaurdammit said:


> Ewww you are cut... EWWWWWWW.


 
Yes, and I don't care.


----------



## Azure (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Bambi said:


> Well, think about it: we're chief among the arguers for minority rights, and yet we can't argue those rights succinctly to the people who don't believe in them? We can't give a country like Iran the economic incentives to reduce the criminal status of homosexuality, or something in exchange for more lenient laws that the international community recognize as being more humane? We can't approach a country like Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, and give them the stepping stones with which they can effectively balance out there religious/political traditions with a recognition of human rights, *without* sacrificing some tradition?
> 
> We've tried somethings, but for being the most prominent arguers for minority rights, we haven't tried everything, and we haven't tried hard enough. We've dropped the ball, and now we're no longer covering that issue nationally. We should start again. Concessions and change will only occur through conflict and a will to progress. We should not allow, in the wake of the Arab Spring, people in those countries the ability to weld and or confuse democracy with fundamentalist appeasing theocracies.


 Much of the Arab world is unwilling to change, tbh, and even if there are laws passed, there is still every cultural vestige they hold sacred standing in the way of gay acceptance in a society that still punishes women for getting raped. Their traditions will be their undoing, it will choke their society, and when their oil runs out, they will become slaves for cheap labor. Bollocks to their tradition, and their nasty culture, you reap what you sow I say, and they've sown quite a bit.


----------



## Fay V (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Aleu said:


> IS there such thing as gender neutral clothing? I might've missed them because I normally pay attention to the male T-shirts with the band logos.


 the required gym clothes you got in middleschool


----------



## dinosaurdammit (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Fay V said:


> the required gym clothes you got in middleschool


 
Oh God, I would hate to see the boys wear our gym clothing. Ours looked like swimsuit bottoms.


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> Much of the Arab world is unwilling to change, tbh, and even if there are laws passed, there is still every cultural vestige they hold sacred standing in the way of gay acceptance in a society that still punishes women for getting raped.


One area we've dropped the ball?

We haven't been willing to confront them enough when it is their shit that stinks.





Azure said:


> Their traditions will be their undoing, it will choke their society, and when their oil runs out, they will become slaves for cheap labor. Bollocks to their tradition, and their nasty culture, you reap what you sow I say, and they've sown quite a bit.


Democracy is a balancing act. I am hoping that the Arab Spring will be more about confronting conservative prejudices and implementing changes to replace them. However almost all of that effort is now being mischievously hijacked and re-directed to target an old, cultural boo-scary enemy: Israel.

Anyone else notice that card trick played by the powers that be in Jordan, Syria, and Yemen?


----------



## Azure (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

How have WE dropped the ball? What can you do against that much hate? War? A PR campaign? Pamplets from the sky? WHAT? War? And most of those card tricks are Radical Islam's calling cards. It's not getting better, it's getting worse. They made their bed, let them sleep in it, America should wash it's hands of that region, IMO. I don't think you understand the depth of the hate because our country is relatively young, over there, they've been hating the same people and bullshit for thousands of years.

EDIT- And why isn't it THEIR fault? What exonerates them? They're the ones doing the killing and harassing and marginalizing, not us.


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> How have WE dropped the ball?


We're pussies, Azure.

We trust the UN too much. We trust the idea of globalization too much. We want to improvise, accept, assimilate, and tolerate other people who do not tolerate us; it's a good idea in principle, but the leaders of such generalizations think that correcting a problem in someone elses culture is as good as learning the language -- and therein lies the flaw.

There's no progress without struggle; we unfortunately have not embodied that method of thought, but kowtowed when asked. We've dropped the ball because we lack the balls to say, "Oh look! The Muslim world is acting like a bunch of dicks. Hey, you're all acting like a bunch of dicks -- fuck your vote, you're killing innocent people over there!"



Azure said:


> What can you do against that much hate? War? A PR campaign? Pamplets from the sky? WHAT? War? And most of those card tricks are Radical Islam's calling cards. It's not getting better, it's getting worse. They made their bed, let them sleep in it, America should wash it's hands of that region, IMO. I don't think you understand the depth of the hate because our country is relatively young, over there, they've been hating the same people and bullshit for thousands of years.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, time out there a second Azure. *I *don't understand the depth of the hate? Please, I'm posting to a fucking furry forum whose PaliFags and IsraeliWanks ream me new orphices anytime I point out a particular fallacy of their thinking. I'm like the fucking prince of knowing middle eastern hate, and that is MY CALLING CARD. :/

Now, as for the whole what do we do bit? Simple -- there are world powers over there. You can't just tell Jordan to go fuck itself, because Jordan could fuck Israels shit up and our own. You also don't go tell Lebanon to fuck off, because than with the assistance of Turkey, and groups like Hezbollah, and countries like Iran, you threaten the US 5th Fleet, our soldiers overseas, as well as years of years of cooperation with their state intelligence agencies in finding and tracking down terrorists. We lose that, then the nukes start coming over.

In short, you don't threaten the Muslim world to the point where secular terrorism seems like a good idea to employ nationally, and that's what countries like Iran, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc., all want. It's also why the Arab Spring has turned into, "I WANT DEMOCRACY I WANT FREE -- ISRAEL RAWR DEATH TO ISRAEL!" because we legitimized that behavior by giving it media attention, instead of media critique. Remember some of these people are opposed to Democracy on the basis it subjugates their religious classicism in exchange for equality with people they're at odds with; the first thing they want is a war they can fight, not a negotiation where they can lose. 

You want to negotiate human rights with them, you give them incentives to change their culture and negotiate with your own. Giving into any external jihad with physical war is like walking into a slaughterhouse, only you're both pigs.



Azure said:


> EDIT- And why isn't it THEIR fault? What exonerates them? They're the ones doing the killing and harassing and marginalizing, not us.


Because we play to their tune -- we're responsible for believing their bullshit. It might fly right back into a PaliFag vs. IsraelWank war, but fuck it. I've got my boxing gloves on.


----------



## Azure (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I ain't talking about some internet shit, I'm talking real life here. I've LIVED IT, SEEN IT, BEEN SURROUNDED BY IT. If anybody is a prince...well, regardless. And as for telling folks over there to fuck off, I think we should stop even that. Close the books, shut the door, withdraw all foreign aid, and let the inevitable bloodbath begin, because NOTHING is going to stop it, short of that Apocalypse bullshit in October, and won't we be praying for that! And we may both be pigs, but this little piggy doubles back and blows up the slaughter house. You can point fingers, assign blame, but it's all for naught. It's going to end in tragedy no matter what we do. I think we ought to pull a Pontius Pilate, the hands won't be less bloody, but our pockets will be fatter. Coming from a no bullshit perspective because compassion doesn't work with the situation anymore, no matter how much I wish it did.


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Azure said:


> I ain't talking about some internet shit, I'm talking real life here.


Yep.

We all were.





Azure said:


> I've LIVED IT, SEEN IT, BEEN SURROUNDED BY IT. If anybody is a prince...well, regardless. And as for telling folks over there to fuck off, I think we should stop even that. Close the books, shut the door, withdraw all foreign aid, and let the inevitable bloodbath begin, because NOTHING is going to stop it, short of that Apocalypse bullshit in October, and won't we be praying for that!


It hasn't happened yet.

Probably never will -- sorry Mr. Clancy if you're reading this.





Azure said:


> And we may both be pigs, but this little piggy doubles back and blows up the slaughter house.


:/


Azure said:


> You can point fingers, assign blame, but it's all for naught.


:/


Azure said:


> It's going to end in tragedy no matter what we do.


*:/*


Azure said:


> I think we ought to pull a Pontius Pilate, the hands won't be less bloody, but our pockets will be fatter. Coming from a no bullshit perspective because compassion doesn't work with the situation anymore, no matter how much I wish it did.


I respect the opinion, but it won't work as well as people say it will. At least, I think.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Please justify why America should be the world police and get involved with everything, because you would flip out if other countries told America to stfu and do things their way.
America has no right to tell other countries to stop being jackasses until it stops being a jackass itself. This goes for most countries.

In fact, the rest of the world are already annoyed at the 'world policing'.


Basically, I agree with Tycho. It's none of America's business (or anyone else's) to shove their noses in and try and change things. It'll cause resentment and more problems that it'll solve.




How the hell did we get onto this?


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



ramsay_baggins said:


> Please justify why America should be the world police and get involved with everything, because you would flip out if other countries told America to stfu and do things their way.


They already do?

Netanyahu recently "disagreed" with President Obama on the issue of Israel reverting back to it's 1967 borders, as well as establishing a new peace process in wake of the Arab spring following a change such as that; oh, and guess what Netanyahu said in our congress for a nice, big standing ovation? It wouldn't make concessions or compromises with terrorists. Guess what?

You ready for this?

_Didn't flip my shit._ Happens all the time in the international community. I think some of you are confusing the "world police" act for me arguing that diplomatic negotiations and concessions are more likely to get the job done as it concerns humanitarian efforts, instead of threats of military force and isolationism, the behavior of your world police -- did you read that?





ramsay_baggins said:


> America has no right to tell other countries to stop being jackasses until it stops being a jackass itself. This goes for most countries.


Oh, well then other people have no right to tell America to stop being a jackass until they stop being jackasses themselves! Ramsay, you do realize how incredibly ignorant that sounds, right?

It's circular logic -- a part of it.





ramsay_baggins said:


> In fact, the rest of the world are already annoyed at the 'world policing'.


You want to know what annoys me about the rest of the world?

That they don't bother to read. I'm not advocating world policing, but talking with our international neighbors, figuring shit out, and getting shit done. Not blowing shit up, but talking. Not blowing shit up, but negotiating.





ramsay_baggins said:


> Basically, I agree with Tycho. It's none of America's business (or anyone else's) to shove their noses in and try and change things. It'll cause resentment and more problems that it'll solve.


Wait, that's strange -- does that mean we can do whatever we want, and if you shove your nose in our business, than it's none of your business?

I tried it once, we'll see how long it takes repeating before the logic supporting such fallacies falls apart.


ramsay_baggins said:


> How the hell did we get onto this?


:/


----------



## Sai_Wolf (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I'm uncut, but my older bro is cut. Different dads. 

I think that everyone is blowing the whole 'gender' thing high in the sky. You start going into the batshit insane category of PC when you start fussing over what gender your child will be. Even in your valiant efforts to KEEP the child from having a gender, you have put a label on them.

When what you COULD have been doing is just saying "I'd rather not say." and let the child develop on it's own. The core of this story, to me, is not the child's gender, but the fact that the parents are 'making a statement' about it.

Or you could just fess up and say "He's a boy/She's a girl." and let the kid develop anyway. What other people hold your child as does not matter in your raising of said child.  Your job is to provide and care and pass on your values, and to support them as they grow.

p.sure I'm going to get a shitstorm for not bending to PC gender guidelines.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

This turned into a political debate somehow?  Holy shit.

Will respond to other stuff momentarily.  You people need to get jobs like me.  :V


----------



## Sai_Wolf (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> This turned into a political debate somehow?  Holy shit.
> 
> Will respond to other stuff momentarily.  You people need to get jobs like me.  :V


 
THREE DAY WEEKEND. =D


----------



## ramsay_baggins (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Bambi said:


> They already do?
> 
> Netanyahu recently "disagreed" with President Obama on the issue of Israel reverting back to it's 1967 borders, as well as establishing a new peace process in wake of the Arab spring following a change such as that; oh, and guess what Netanyahu said in our congress for a nice, big standing ovation? It wouldn't make concessions or compromises with terrorists. Guess what?
> 
> ...



You come across as advocating world policing in your posts, even if you don't mean to. I am sorry if I misconstrued your point.



> Oh, well then other people have no right to tell America to stop being a jackass until they stop being jackasses themselves! Ramsay, you do realize how incredibly ignorant that sounds, right?



Did I say the country I live in doesn't act like a jackass? No.



> You want to know what annoys me about the rest of the world?
> 
> That they don't bother to read. I'm not advocating world policing, but talking with our international neighbors, figuring shit out, and getting shit done. Not blowing shit up, but talking. Not blowing shit up, but negotiating.Wait, that's strange -- does that mean we can do whatever we want, and if you shove your nose in our business, than it's none of your business?
> 
> I tried it once, we'll see how long it takes repeating before the logic supporting such fallacies falls apart.


 
Personally, I don't believe that talking will solve anything at this point. If the countries are going to change their laws it has to be grassroots activism and widespread changing of views among the populace that do it. Diplomacy won't do that.
And if your country does stuff that stays within it's own country and supported by the majority of people in it, how are they going to react when other countries wade in and tell them they have to change their views? It becomes a clusterfuck, and the Middle East is already too much of one.


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> This turned into a political debate somehow?  Holy shit.


Admittedly, I corrected someone about their initial idea the UN, by majority, was voting in favor against minority rights. I also made a point about how we've dropped the ball as it concerned arguing minority rights to ignorance, and apparently a shit storm thus ensued with me somehow supporting the United States policing the world, and me not knowing the art of my own trade (which is politics in the Middle East, now simplified from post barf into shorter paragraphs.)


----------



## Bambi (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



ramsay_baggins said:


> You come across as advocating world policing in your posts, even if you don't mean to.


EDIT: You've conceded that there may have been a mistake on your part, so this issue has been resolved. Heat of the moment for both of us, I understand.





ramsay_baggins said:


> Did I say the country I live in doesn't act like a jackass? No.


Conceded -- mea culpa.





ramsay_baggins said:


> Personally, I don't believe that talking will solve anything at this point. If the countries are going to change their laws it has to be grassroots activism and widespread changing of views among the populace that do it. Diplomacy won't do that.


Okay, and that's your opinion. My opinion is abandoning diplomacy right now would be a bad fucking idea, not just for us, but for everyone else who has a vested interest in moving forward.


ramsay_baggins said:


> And if your country does stuff that stays within it's own country and supported by the majority of people in it, how are they going to react when other countries wade in and tell them they have to change their views? It becomes a clusterfuck, and the Middle East is already too much of one.


EDIT: I respect this opinion very heavily, but you cannot let this big scary world of ours scare us out of reasoning with one another.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> How do you know that's best?  Why not allow a child to choose when they're old enough to do so?  No, social "convention" doesn't HAVE to change, but then, no law is forcing you to do it, either.  To me, it just seems the whole issue to you involves social order, doing it "just because", rather than doing it for a valuable reason.  If it is not "life-altering", illegal, and only gives what you term a "subtle" benefit, why do you care to support circumcision so strongly?



I know what's best the same way that my father did.  He took a chance on what would be best for me in the long run and made a determination to have his three sons circumcised.  It was a normal procedure, safe, and would make us physically no different than our peers growing up and beyond that.  Having my kid grow up as an average kid in the US, with the same things and opportunities I had, I believe is a valuable thing I can bestow upon my child.  Again, it's my opinion.  I wouldn't want my kid to choose later in life because he'd be able to consciously remember that kind of pain and I'd rather get it out of the way while he's young.  Again, if he resents that decision and wants it back so bad, he can do something about it when he's old enough.



> Still, it wasn't an option you gave him.  Your choice, not his.  Just like those Chinese families who didn't give their daughters a choice as to whether they wanted their feet bound or not (though that decision was life-altering).  All because it became the "social norm" in their day.  For some imagined (or even real) social benefit.  I fit in quite well myself, being uncut... had the same tools, knowledge and opportunities I would've had if I had been cut.  You say you want what's best, but then, you also say "what's best" is to "fit in".  Fit in to what?



Parents make a lot of decisions for their kids.  Kids aren't always the best judges of what should and shouldn't happen to them.  Anyone who's ever worked with kids know they aren't the best decision-makers.  The nature of being a parent is having to force a child to do something they don't want to do, but something the parent believes they should do, ie. study before a test, wear matching clothes, go outside and play instead of sitting inside watching TV, eating vegetables as a snack instead of cookies.  Circumcision, to me, fits within this general list of parental decision making for a child.

As far as context for why, well I've posted enough in this thread by now that you can go back and look at the context.  At the end of the day though, as Clayton mentioned, it's also my opinion.



Lizzie said:


> I want to have Schmuck's babies so I can give him the finger when he goes on with this circumcision stuff. No, that wasn't a date advertisement. :V
> 
> Seriously, lazy, dear people. Get up your ass, go to the bathroom, pull your wienerschnitzel out under the tap, and scrub.
> If that is too hard I'm more than happy to take a plane to wherever you are and do it for you. For I am a _*nice person!*_


 
Wanting to bear someone's children to prove a point doesn't sound like something a "nice person" would do.  :V

I think you seriously need to calm down.



Sai_Wolf said:


> THREE DAY WEEKEND. =D



And I'm still waking up at 6 AM to go to work.

What is this "weekend" you speak of?


----------



## Sai_Wolf (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> And I'm still waking up at 6 AM to go to work.
> 
> What is this "weekend" you speak of?



It is the reward for my time doing fucking shift work. That's what it is. I <3 9 to 5.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Sai_Wolf said:


> It is the reward for my time doing fucking shift work. That's what it is. I <3 9 to 5.


 
Still not getting it.  You speak in riddles with this "shift work" business.


----------



## Sai_Wolf (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Still not getting it.  You speak in riddles with this "shift work" business.


 
You poor thing. :V

I'm glad for my job. 7:30 to 4 PM is my time. first job? 6:30 to 2. Then back again the same day for 10PM to 6 AM. Go home, sleep until about 1 for the 2 PM to 10 PM shift.

Never had a god damn moment free.

I'll shut up now.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Sai_Wolf said:


> You poor thing. :V


 
It's just the nature of what I do for a living.  :V


----------



## Thatch (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Still not getting it.  You speak in riddles with this "shift work" business.


 
You confuse me with this "work" shtick as a whole.


----------



## Grey Wolverine (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I'm lost, this thread went from parents keeping a child's gender a secret, to circumcision being morally right/the right thing to do, to politics, to people's working hours. Bravo FAF, bravo.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> You people need to get jobs like me.  :V


 
Believe it or not, I do have a job. Boss didn't need my help, so I went home. It kinda sucks, when school gets out, Im going to be working 7 days a week going from 6-noon, damn farm work.


----------



## Tabasco (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Using your kids for potentially detrimental experiments is pretty douchey, bro.


----------



## Namba (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Damn, and I was just talking about this with my friends today... this is some of the craziest crap I've ever heard.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Clayton said:


> Meh, some parents might do it because they had it done to them, or just because they want their kid to be circumcised.



In other words, no real reason.




Clayton said:


> This gave me a laugh.


 
You're welcome.




Clayton said:


> I'm advocating circumcision *because I see children as dogs* and I have nothing against cropping or docking a dog.


 
Seriously?  If so, do you also advocate neutering children?




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> *I know what's best the same way that my father did.  He took a chance* on what would be best for me in the long run and made a determination to have his three sons circumcised.  It was a normal procedure, safe, and would make us physically no different than our peers growing up and beyond that.  Having my kid grow up as an average kid in the US, with the same things and opportunities I had, I believe is a valuable thing I can bestow upon my child.  Again, it's my opinion.  I wouldn't want my kid to choose later in life because he'd be able to consciously remember that kind of pain and I'd rather get it out of the way while he's young.  Again, if he resents that decision and wants it back so bad, he can do something about it when he's old enough.



In other words... no, wait, in the bolded part, your words are quite obvious.  Your father DIDN'T know best... he TOOK A CHANCE.  In actual other words, he GAMBLED.

And then you mention peers.  Are you aware you were already physically different than you peers?  That circumcision, to fit in, would be the same as all your "peers" having, say, blue eyes?  Whether they wanted them or not?  And again you talk as if circumcision has an effect... that, if uncut, your son wouldn't have the same "things" and "opportunities" you had.  I find that concept very strange.  I also find it strange that you say you'd rather "get it out of the way while he's young", so your son doesn't have to remember the pain he chose to go through to be circumcised later in life, and yet, you seem to have no problem with him choosing the pain of restoration (not to mention, such proceedures are not free).  Yes, this is your opinion, but I find this dichotomy curious.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> *Parents make a lot of decisions for their kids.*  Kids aren't always the best judges of what should and shouldn't happen to them.  Anyone who's ever worked with kids know they aren't the best decision-makers.  The nature of being a parent is having to force a child to do something they don't want to do, but something the parent believes they should do, ie. study before a test, wear matching clothes, go outside and play instead of sitting inside watching TV, eating vegetables as a snack instead of cookies.  *Circumcision, to me, fits within this general list of parental decision making for a child.*
> 
> As far as context for why, well I've posted enough in this thread by now that you can go back and look at the context.  At the end of the day though, as Clayton mentioned, it's also my opinion.


 
They certainly do, but most of those decisions don't involve elective surgery.  Any form of surgery that is ELECTIVE in nature, as in, not necessary to save their life or correct a physical DEFECT (such as, say, a cleft palate), should not be performed on a baby.  As a baby, they may not remember the pain later in life, but babies are affected by physical trauma, and children can have issues later in life due to what was done to them as infants.  So, no, I don't consider circumcision to be on the "general" list, even if you do.

As for context, the best I can get is "I'd do it to my son because my dad did it to me."  I've been reading what you've said throughout this entire thread... if my conclusion above is mistaken, then my question to you remains open to a stated answer, for clarity.  I've given my own context, above (if I haven't been clear, please let me know).  As for an alternative context of what you've said so far, "I want my son to fit in" seems to also be what you're saying.  So, it would help to have a single statement of context.  Just so I'm sure I've got things right, out of all that material.


----------



## Volkodav (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> In other words, no real reason.


Some of em, yeah



Roose Hurro said:


> Seriously?  If so, do you also advocate neutering children?


Absolutely, we need to cut down on the stray children population


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> In other words... no, wait, in the bolded part, your words are quite obvious.  Your father DIDN'T know best... he TOOK A CHANCE.  In actual other words, he GAMBLED.



If you want to look at it that way.  Frankly, no father has the ability to forsee how his child is going to turn out, what their wants and desires will be.  The only thing they have to go on is themselves and how they were raised.  My father was raised fairly by his father and I was raised fairly by mine and neither of us have any issue with any of the decisions made for us by our fathers.  I'm going with a system that has proven to work, so I'm not exactly flying blind here.



> And then you mention peers.  Are you aware you were already physically different than you peers?  That circumcision, to fit in, would be the same as all your "peers" having, say, blue eyes?  Whether they wanted them or not?  And again you talk as if circumcision has an effect... that, if uncut, your son wouldn't have the same "things" and "opportunities" you had.  I find that concept very strange.  I also find it strange that you say you'd rather "get it out of the way while he's young", so your son doesn't have to remember the pain he chose to go through to be circumcised later in life, and yet, you seem to have no problem with him choosing the pain of restoration (not to mention, such proceedures are not free).  Yes, this is your opinion, but I find this dichotomy curious.



Curious indeed.  But that's just the way I feel.  Personally I'd like to think I'd raise my kid to worry about other things than wanting to restore foreskin, like his grades, jobs, personal health/grooming, etc.  But frankly, if he's out of my house then I don't really have control over what he decides to do with his life.  I'd raise my kid as if he were straight, but if he turned out to be gay I'd be fine with that.  I just want to set in motion the wheels for what I think will give my kid the maximum amount of happiness I can.



> They certainly do, but most of those decisions don't involve elective surgery.  Any form of surgery that is ELECTIVE in nature, as in, not necessary to save their life or correct a physical DEFECT (such as, say, a cleft palate), should not be performed on a baby.  As a baby, they may not remember the pain later in life, but babies are affected by physical trauma, and children can have issues later in life due to what was done to them as infants.  So, no, I don't consider circumcision to be on the "general" list, even if you do.



Given that I, my brothers, my father, my uncle, or my cousins, or anyone else within my family or friends who are cut don't have sudden night terrors about the procedure, I can't say that the pain felt that early in childhood would cause my kid to be that traumatized.  I just don't see it.  I was spanked, hit with fly swatters, and whipped with a belt when I was a kid, and I don't believe I'm an overly aggressive person or suffer from mental anguish, nor do I believe my brothers are.  Can the procedure have an effect on a kid's psyche?  Maybe, but I don't see this as something prevalent or guaranteed to happen no more than I see the complications of the procedure happening too often to go through with it.  And I'm not saying you have to conform to my opinions on the matter.  As I've said on a consistent basis, these are my opinions on the matter.  Nothing more, nothing less.



> As for context, the best I can get is "I'd do it to my son because my dad did it to me."  I've been reading what you've said throughout this entire thread... if my conclusion above is mistaken, then my question to you remains open to a stated answer, for clarity.  I've given my own context, above (if I haven't been clear, please let me know).  As for an alternative context of what you've said so far, "I want my son to fit in" seems to also be what you're saying.  So, it would help to have a single statement of context.  Just so I'm sure I've got things right, out of all that material.


 
I want my son to have a circumcision because it's what's normal in American society on a majority standpoint, it's something that's been done and has been non-detrimental in my family's history, and I honestly believe my son's quality of life will benefit from it.


----------



## Fiesta_Jack (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

It's like arguing with a wall. A wall that doesn't like circumcision. :|

As Term said, it's obviously not that traumatic, seeing as I've never heard of ANYONE of countless infant circumcisions causing PTSD or anything even remotely close to it. It's a choice that is nondetrimental, and may even be (possibly) beneficial. Elsewise, it's still an aesthetic choice with virtually zero repercussions on the child. So... Worry about something else besides our future childrens' wangs. They'll be fine.


----------



## Bliss (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

I have time. I am about to start my two and a half month summer holiday. 



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I'd raise my kid as if he were straight, but if he turned out to be gay I'd be fine with that.


What is this 'straight' parenting? If your child turns out gay will you paint his/her room rainbow?



> I honestly believe my son's quality of life will benefit from it.


Yes, Clayton wants to lure him into his basement. :V


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Lizzie said:


> What is this 'straight' parenting? If your child turns out gay will you paint his/her room rainbow?


 
Not if the room is in my house, no.  When they own a place they can paint the walls however they want, but in mine I won't have a room where every time I walk in I have an eyes strain headache.


----------



## Roose Hurro (May 29, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> If you want to look at it that way.  Frankly, no father has the ability to forsee how his child is going to turn out, what their wants and desires will be.  The only thing they have to go on is themselves and how they were raised.  My father was raised fairly by his father and I was raised fairly by mine and neither of us have any issue with any of the decisions made for us by our fathers.  *I'm going with a system that has proven to work, so I'm not exactly flying blind here.*



Fair enough.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Curious indeed.  But that's just the way I feel.  *Personally I'd like to think I'd raise my kid to worry about other things than wanting to restore foreskin, like his grades, jobs, personal health/grooming, etc.*  But frankly, if he's out of my house then I don't really have control over what he decides to do with his life.  I'd raise my kid as if he were straight, but if he turned out to be gay I'd be fine with that.  [/b]I just want to set in motion the wheels for what I think will give my kid the maximum amount of happiness I can.[/b]


 
Again, fair enough.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Given that I, my brothers, my father, my uncle, or my cousins, or anyone else within my family or friends who are cut don't have sudden night terrors about the procedure, *I can't say that the pain felt that early in childhood would cause my kid to be that traumatized*.  I just don't see it.  I was spanked, hit with fly swatters, and whipped with a belt when I was a kid, and I don't believe I'm an overly aggressive person or suffer from mental anguish, nor do I believe my brothers are.  Can the procedure have an effect on a kid's psyche?  Maybe, but I don't see this as something prevalent or guaranteed to happen no more than I see the complications of the procedure happening too often to go through with it.  And I'm not saying you have to conform to my opinions on the matter.  As I've said on a consistent basis, these are my opinions on the matter.  Nothing more, nothing less.



True, but it is a consideration to some.  Just as the possible complications are a consideration, rare as they may be.  And if we all had the same opinions, this would be a boring world.  With nothing to discuss.




Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I want my son to have a circumcision because it's what's normal in American society on a majority standpoint, it's something that's been done and has been non-detrimental in my family's history, and I honestly believe my son's quality of life will benefit from it.


 
This is a nice, concise reasoning... thank you.  To be honest in return, "tradition" isn't something to give up lightly, especially if it has worked for so long.  Change just for the sake of change isn't wise.  There has to be a reason to change, just as there should be a reason to stick to tradition.  It has a powerful effect on civilization, a stabilizing force, to have a family history you can look towards and learn from.  Ultimately, that is more important than whether you're cut or uncut.




Fiesta_Jack said:


> It's like arguing with a wall. A wall that doesn't like circumcision. :|



Just because I "don't like" circumcision doesn't make me a wall.




Fiesta_Jack said:


> As Term said, it's obviously not that traumatic, seeing as I've never heard of ANYONE of countless infant circumcisions causing PTSD or anything even remotely close to it. It's a choice that is nondetrimental, and may even be (possibly) beneficial. *Elsewise, it's still an aesthetic choice with virtually zero repercussions on the child.* So... Worry about something else besides our future childrens' wangs. They'll be fine.


 
Except for the repercussion that it was done to them without their choice.  When it comes to purely aestheic body-mods, the choice should be left up to the individual, irreguardless.  Oh, one curiousity:  Funny how a parent can feel perfectly fine about not giving their son a choice when it comes to circumcision, but will argue over whether their son has a choice when it comes to getting a tattoo or piercing.


----------



## Fiesta_Jack (May 30, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*



Roose Hurro said:


> Just because I "don't like" circumcision doesn't make me a wall.
> 
> Except for the repercussion that it was done to them without their choice.  When it comes to purely aestheic body-mods, the choice should be left up to the individual, irreguardless.  Oh, one curiousity:  Funny how a parent can feel perfectly fine about not giving their son a choice when it comes to circumcision, but will argue over whether their son has a choice when it comes to getting a tattoo or piercing.


 
Are you not a native English speaker? It's fine if you aren't, but you seem to be not understanding some words and phrases. The comparison to a wall just means you're obviously not going to change your opinion. 

Also, the word repercussion means consequence, which you didn't describe, you just reasserted your opinion and called it a repercussion. :S 

In regard to the tattoo/piercing issue; I'd let my child make their own mistakes, they're welcome to body-mod themselves beyond recognition if it's really what they think they want.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 13, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Other than the fact that having the first name "Storm" guarantees that he/she will receive beatings at the hands of the school bullies, I think he/she will find out his own sexuality during a trip to the toy store. His/her parents are nuttier than a bottle of Fra Angelico for not wanting to teach the child what constitutes male and female behavior in society but they won't able to stop him/her from wanting the appropriate toys for his gender at the local toy store. When I was but a little child, I enjoyed construction sets, toy trucks, plastic army men, bug collections, and chemistry sets. I fantasized about what being Godzilla would be like or growing up to be an astronaut or samurai or cowboy. And I loved football- that was proof my masculinity (and I guess loving football strongly indicates yopu're from Texas). 

If Storm is male, then he'll want to do many of those self-same things that I did. If Storm is female, then the world of pink-colored dollies, dresses, and My Little Pony will be open to her. Those were the toys that I would not be caught dead with. I just wonder what's going to happen when their precious child who they've been raising as a girl takes up a baseball bat or toy truck or on the flip side, their little boy wants to play with dresses.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 13, 2011)

*Re: Parents try to raise kid contrary to gender roles, media flips their shit in frea*

Necro


----------

