# Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they do?



## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

This has been bugging me, but here in a the usa most muslim americans assimilate culturally to the point you don't know many people's religious beliefs until asked.  So anyway, from what I've heard in like England and France and other countries they don't to the point that there's been riots in France.  For someone that lives in a country that they don't what causes this?  Honestly I don't know too much about what is going on in France culturally too much, but that's my fault.


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

It's this multiculturalism disease that has infected European countries.

The idea is the best way to show the most tolerance and respect is to bend over backwards to accommodate others, even if that means butchering your own culture and values system. So there is little reason to integrate when the locals are all too willing to accommodate everything you want, through fear of looking racist and bigoted if they do not.


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## Attaman (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Typical Answer By Media: Evil Swarthy Mooslems seek to dominate globe!

Probable Answer: Like in the US, the immigrating generations tend to be less "Brit-ized" / "Frenchied" than their children?


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## Smelge (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

France is a very introverted country.

There's your answer.

But to expand on it a little, France likes to protect their national identity, and see other nations coming in as outsiders. Similarly, they dislike exporting stuff. A good example is music. You'll very rarely hear music from French bands because it's illegal to distribute music from French bands outwith the country. So if you're part of a popular band, you have to move out of France to get heard anywhere else in the world.

Some areas of France are more open to change than others. The rural parts are surprisingly good at adapting. Go down to the Alps, and you'll find a higher proportion of English speaking locals and an entire aisle of Brit food in supermarkets. After years of Brits going skiing there, they've adapted to it, while places like Paris would resist as much as possible.

The other reason Muslim people don't integrate very well is because quite often they move into Muslim communities, or if they're refugees, in with others from their countries. Once there it's hard to move out, so you end up with colonies where there's no need for them to go out and integrate. The system pretty much puts a stop to most chances of it happening.


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## ramsay_baggins (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

In Britain, they stay in areas where you don't see whites or other cultures much if at all. Essentially, they just bring their culture here and refuse to assimilate. If anyone says anything then they get called racist.

I don't mind multiculturalism, in fact I love meeting people from other cultures and learning about them, but if people are going to move to/live in our country they need to abide by our laws and not isolate themselves.

In Glasgow it's not much of an issue. There are loads of muslims, but they seem to integrate pretty well and just form a symbiotic culture which can be really awesome to experience.


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## Smelge (Dec 28, 2011)

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ramsay_baggins said:


> In Britain, they stay in areas where you don't see whites or other cultures much if at all. Essentially, they just bring their culture here and refuse to assimilate. If anyone says anything then they get called racist.
> 
> I don't mind multiculturalism, but if people are going to move to/live in our country they need to abide by our laws and not isolate themselves.



Nice idea, and I shall rebut with -Costa Del Sol.

Brits do it too, abroad.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

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Smelge said:


> France is a very introverted country.
> 
> There's your answer.
> 
> ...


This sounds like the most plausible reason actually, I doubted all of france was like how I thought originally; just wanted to hear someone's opinion that lived in the EU.


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## Smelge (Dec 28, 2011)

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CannonFodder said:


> This sounds like the most plausible reason actually, I doubted all of france was like how I thought originally; just wanted to hear someone's opinion that lived in the EU.



I lived and worked in France for a year. I know how it is.


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## Elim Garak (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Belgium has the same problem, however, A former teacher and a friend to this day of mine is a model of how he it should be. He speaks perfect Dutch, He doesn't force his wife to wear head rags(as he calls it) or any other "muslim-related" clothing and mocks the idea. He has a job and works. He follows our rules, but there are others who don't give a shit about this country.
It is mainly the childeren of muslim who who moved here and raised their children with something more appropriate to the old country rather then the new culture and ways of living here. It's bad parenting.
Also in America, cops tend to respond with more force and take bullshit from noone. Which is not a bad thing all the time.


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## Mayfurr (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ramsay_baggins said:


> In Britain, they stay in areas where you don't see whites or other cultures much if at all. Essentially, they just bring their culture here and refuse to assimilate. If anyone says anything then they get called racist.
> 
> I don't mind multiculturalism, in fact I love meeting people from other cultures and learning about them, but if people are going to move to/live in our country they need to abide by our laws and not isolate themselves.



Though on the other hand, to discourage the formation of insular ethnic communities there needs to be inclusion and acceptance from the indigenous culture of the "outsiders" - in other words, one can hardly expect immigrants of Ethnicity X to happily "assimilate" if the locals of the culture expecting their assimilation are unaccepting, unfriendly and/or actively hostile towards them. It's a fact of human nature that one retreats into the culture one is familiar with when uncomfortable in a foreign land.

And as Smelge points out, non-assimilation into local culture isn't exclusive to those with brown skins - the various insular ex-pat communities of Europeans et al in places like Asia are just as resistant to local culture assimilation as anyone else.

In ex-colonies like New Zealand, the twist in the whole "immigrant assimilation" thing is that the dominant culture is now that of the _immigrants_ (i.e. European), and that the indigenous culture (Maori) is now the one that's expected by many Europeans to "assimilate" instead of the other way around. Which I don't believe is right at all, especially when the same people start griping about how Asian immigrants are "taking over" - it's as though the expectation is that "everyone must assimilate into European culture regardless of whether it was the original culture or not".


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

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The only problem I've seen here is that a mom wanted her girl to wear the burqa while swimming and that just had bad idea written all over it until the lifeguard made her wear a lifejacket and floaties in the kiddy pool.


Mayfurr said:


> And as Smelge points out, non-assimilation into  local culture isn't exclusive to those with brown skins - the various  insular ex-pat communities of Europeans et al in places like Asia are  just as resistant to local culture assimilation as anyone else.


Yeah, I know it's not just people of arabic descent or such, it's other cases as well.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 28, 2011)

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ADF said:


> It's this multiculturalism disease that has infected European countries.
> 
> The idea is the best way to show the most tolerance and respect is to bend over backwards to accommodate others, even if that means butchering your own culture and values system. So there is little reason to integrate when the locals are all too willing to accommodate everything you want, through fear of looking racist and bigoted if they do not.



Hence why we are supposed to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas" Fuck.....that. This is my country and I was bought up to say Happy christmas and in my own country that is what I will bloody well call it. I remember in the news some time ago where a school stopped putting the cross on hot cross buns in case it "offended" their Muslim students. First off the cross on a hot cross bun looks nothing like a fucking crucifix it looks very much like this +, secondly we should be able to show our own religious beliefs, especially in our own country. If those Muslims don't like our religions and our culture then they know where the fucking airports are.


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## AlexInsane (Dec 28, 2011)

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The way I learned it is that the French basically have a ginormous hate-boner for everyone who isn't French.

That's their prerogative, I suppose.


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

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Randy-Darkshade said:


> Hence why we are supposed to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas" Fuck.....that. This is my country and I was bought up to say Happy christmas and in my own country that is what I will bloody well call it. I remember in the news some time ago where a school stopped putting the cross on hot cross buns in case it "offended" their Muslim students. First off the cross on a hot cross bun looks nothing like a fucking crucifix it looks very much like this +, secondly we should be able to show our own religious beliefs, especially in our own country. If those Muslims don't like our religions and our culture then they know where the fucking airports are.



It's not really their fault, it's our governments fault. European countries figured that the correct response to respecting someone else's culture is rolling over every time a cultural clash takes place. If there are any integration problems, it's clearly OUR FAULT for not being welcoming and accommodating enough. They've gotten it into their head that if they just be nice and understanding enough, that the other people will eventually come round and we can all respect each other. They don't get there are aggressive opportunists that will take advantage of this attitude to convert their areas into mini versions of their own country, who have no interest in integrating with the local population in the slightest.


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## Dreaming (Dec 28, 2011)

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You'll find that, throughout Europe, there are quite a lot of large homogeneous communities. I have the Balkans in mind here, there are large Muslim populations in the former Yugoslav countries which don't often mix with the Slavic populations.  

The same can be said for the Western European countries. There are large Muslim populations that, for the most part, keep to themselves. I dunno why, it could be for a variety of reasons. Local attitudes, differing cultures not mixing well, etc. I mean, both France and Belgium have banned the use of the Burqa from what I hear.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 28, 2011)

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ADF said:


> It's not really their fault, it's our governments fault. European countries figured that the correct response to respecting someone else's culture is rolling over every time a cultural clash takes place. If there are any integration problems, it's clearly OUR FAULT for not being welcoming and accommodating enough. They've gotten it into their head that if they just be nice and understanding enough, that the other people will eventually come round and we can all respect each other. They don't get there are aggressive opportunists that will take advantage of this attitude to convert their areas into mini versions of their own country, who have no interest in integrating with the local population in the slightest.



I know it's the governments fault, but still if any of them didn't like our culture then they always know where the planes are. I respect them and their ways, even if I do find their religions the oddest on the planet.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

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AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> You'll find that, throughout Europe, there are quite a lot of large homogeneous communities. I have the Balkans in mind here, there are large Muslim populations in the former Yugoslav countries which don't often mix with the Slavic populations.
> 
> The same can be said for the Western European countries. There are large Muslim populations that, for the most part, keep to themselves. I dunno why, it could be for a variety of reasons. Local attitudes, differing cultures not mixing well, etc. I mean, both France and Belgium have banned the use of the Burqa from what I hear.


Culture is probably the only thing the USA has the EU beat; we're mostly a non-homogeneous culture, except the deep deep south.


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## Bliss (Dec 28, 2011)

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ADF said:


> It's this multiculturalism disease that has infected European countries.
> 
> The idea is the best way to show the most tolerance and respect is to  bend over backwards to accommodate others, even if that means butchering  your own culture and values system. So there is little reason to  integrate when the locals are all too willing to accommodate everything  you want, through fear of looking racist and bigoted if they do  not.


Oh, for goodness' sake with you.

In my experience those who keep going on about the danger of 'bending over backwards' have instead distanced _themselves_  farther from the norm. My culture and values are just fine and have not  been threatened by anything except for the occasional (usually)  right-wing nutjob crying a river over the "Musulim takeover!11".



Mayfurr said:


> In *ex*-colonies like New Zealand...


What!? :V


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

It probably doesn't help that when they move here they are housed in the same areas. So eventually parts of a town or city become flooded with that ethnic group. For example if you go into Peckham or Brixton in London, you will see that a majority of the people in those districts are black people because that is where they were housed when they came here looking for asylum. So you end up with them all sticking as their own group instead of trying to fit in with everyone else.

The British government does a good job at fucking things up.


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

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Randy-Darkshade said:


> I know it's the governments fault, but still if any of them didn't like our culture then they always know where the planes are. I respect them and their ways, even if I do find their religions the oddest on the planet.



The ones that hate this country for not being like their homeland aren't going to leave, because the current system pays them to exist here.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 28, 2011)

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ADF said:


> The ones that hate this country for not being like their homeland aren't going to leave, because the current system pays them to exist here.



Duh, that's why they all move here in the first place because they know once there asylum application is accepted they will be given everything they need, money, transport, home, job or the opportunity to run a corner shop.

Which pisses me off because people like me and you have to fight and struggle and go through fucking hell and back and a ton of bullshit just to get anything.


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## AshleyAshes (Dec 28, 2011)

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ITT: Angry White People Without Jobs Complain About Immigrants


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

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Wow, the further this thread goes on the less shitty the usa sounds.


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## Mayonnaise (Dec 28, 2011)

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CannonFodder said:


> Ta mom wanted her girl to *wear the burqa while swimming*


Lol wtf?


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## Tycho (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Because like most people they despise the French and their culture, and have no desire to assimilate into it?


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

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Lizzie said:


> Oh, for goodness' sake with you.
> 
> In my experience those who keep going on about the danger of 'bending over backwards' have instead distanced _themselves_  farther from the norm. My culture and values are just fine and have not  been threatened by anything except for the occasional (usually)  right-wing nutjob crying a river over the "Musulim takeover!11".





AshleyAshes said:


> ITT: Angry White People Without Jobs Complain About Immigrants



No one has said anything about jobs or complained about a "Muslim take over" in this thread, you two are criticising views that haven't been expressed.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 28, 2011)

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AshleyAshes said:


> ITT: Angry White People Without Jobs Complain About Immigrants



We have a right to complain. I have to go through a lot of fucking bull shit in the attempt to find a fucking job while they get one handed to them on a silver platter. I'm treated as second best in my own country by my own government. The government cares more about immigrants than their own people.


I don't give a flying fuck about immigrants living here, I just want to be treated equally by our government.


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## Bliss (Dec 28, 2011)

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ADF said:


> The ones that hate this country for not being like their homeland aren't going to leave, because the current system pays them to exist here.


Does it pay for your existence as well? :V

Look! I can link videos too.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 28, 2011)

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Lizzie said:


> Does it pay for your existence as well? :V
> 
> Look! I can link videos too.



Like fuck it does.


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## AshleyAshes (Dec 28, 2011)

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Randy-Darkshade said:


> Like fuck it does.



I thought you lived on government assistance, Randy.  You are rarely employed and resort to selling bikes on Craigslist.  Or do you live off your family instead?


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

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Lizzie said:


> Does it pay for your existence as well? :V
> 
> Look! I can link videos too.



Will you please stop exaggerating/taking out of context what I am saying? You appear to be intentionally trying to push this discussion into a racist/extremist one.

No one has complained about "Muslims taking over" and in that post I referred to "the ones" like in that video. You responded as if I was painting all Muslims with the same brush, plus seem to think a video showing another extremist group somehow suggests if I'm against X I must also be for Y. The EDL are nothing more but a bunch of thugs.

I ask that you stop trying to incite an argument in this thread.



Lizzie said:


> Does it pay for your existence as well? :V



My family have funded my existence in this country since birth and I am currently on job seekers allowance while trying to gain employment in these difficult times. I have taken part in unpaid employment during my time looking for work.

That is hardly equivalent to the people I am talking about.


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## Bliss (Dec 28, 2011)

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Randy-Darkshade said:


> I'm treated as second best in my own country by my own government. The government cares more about immigrants than their own people.
> 
> I don't give a flying fuck about immigrants living here, I just want to be treated equally by our government.


You are lucky to have this nice young man, then.



ADF said:


> Will you please stop exaggerating/taking out of  context what I am saying? You appear to be intentionally trying to push  this discussion into a racist/extremist one.
> 
> I ask that you stop trying to incite an argument in this thread.


Excuse me, I'm not the type to _bend over backwards_ for your opinions. 



> My family have funded my existence in this country since birth  and I am currently on job seekers allowance while trying to gain  employment in these difficult times. I have taken part in unpaid  employment during my time looking for work.
> 
> That is hardly equivalent to the people I am talking about.


How come? Because it is you? Seems to me you enjoy exorbitant privilege whilst deeming other people unworthy for... what ever that surely logical reason was. Who are these people and what do you know of them?


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

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Lizzie said:


> Excuse me, I'm not the type to bend over backwards for your opinions.
> 
> How come? Because it is you? Seems to me you enjoy exorbitant privilege whilst deeming other people unworthy for... what ever that surely logical reason was. Who are these people and what do you know of them?



You're being difficult for the sake of it by clearly exaggerating/misrepresenting my comments as being those of a racist, so why even attempt to explain EU/immigration issues in my country; that even our own government is basing policy on? You live in Finland but appear to think you know enough about our system to automatically disregard everything I am saying as being invalid. I'm sure you will be entirely reasonable in your response if I did go into detail...

There is nothing to gain from trying to convince you of my views, nor are they reliant on convincing others. Quite frankly your behaviour reminds me of the people who prevent progress on resolving problems, because they stamp any attempt to even discuss them as racism.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Dec 28, 2011)

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CannonFodder said:


> Culture is probably the only thing the USA has the EU beat; we're mostly a non-homogeneous culture, except the deep deep south.



Did I miss something? You sound like the EU was homogenous culture wise...


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## Smelge (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

I support the banning of the burkha though. I don't see why one group of people should be given free reign to go around with their faces concealed. If motorcyclists have to take off their helmets to go into garages so the CCTV can record them, then everyone else should remove face coverings.


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Smelge said:


> I support the banning of the burkha though. I don't see why one group of people should be given free reign to go around with their faces concealed. If motorcyclists have to take off their helmets to go into garages so the CCTV can record them, then everyone else should remove face coverings.



It's what they represent that bothers me. It's not even in the Muslim religion for a women to wear a burka, it is something that is genuinely practiced in areas we'd consider fanatical and dangerous. Countries where women are second class citizens and the men don't like others looking at their "property". 

Head scarf =  fine if you absolutely must.
Burka = female oppression.


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## Elim Garak (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

The Burqa is banned because it fully conceals a person, technically fursuits outside events and such are banned as well.
A policeman over here once got sued for demanding to look at the face of a woman under a burqa, he got sued for doing his job.

Also I lol'd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqini


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## Onnes (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

A potentially interesting topic that is shortly and inevitably turned into "dem immigrants'r foreign and takin' er jobs/welfare/women." I hope people realize the danger inherent in trying to define a national culture and then legally judging immigrants and refugees based on their adherence to it. This is in no way a simple issue--it cuts to the very essence of states, cultures, and sub-cultures in modern times--and anyone who tries to paint it in terms of immigrant exceptionalism or an us-vs-them struggle reeks of mindless nationalism.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

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Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Did I miss something? You sound like the EU was homogenous culture wise...


I was responding to amerikumaourUlfur, *SOME *EU countries culturally are homogenous whereas the USA both religiously and racially diverse; while at first glance the USA seems like a bunch of white Christians in actuality it varies greatly from Louisiana being extremely Christian to the New England states being barely religious at all; or for instance some nothern states being vast majority Caucasian to Hawaii having a Caucasian population just under 25%.
Whereas minorities in *SOME* EU countries are stagnant percentage wise, in the USA Caucasians are going to become the minority in a couple decades and people are just going to have to deal with it.
Again I say the USA relative to *SOME* EU countries is more multicultural, but it depends on which country.
Don't believe me?  Visit Texas and see how large of a Hispanic population there is.


Onnes said:


> A potentially interesting topic that is shortly and  inevitably turned into "dem immigrants'r foreign and takin' er  jobs/welfare/women."


Oh the irony, the first good thread I've made in a good while gets derailed into xenophobia.


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## Attaman (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Go to most US cities. There's Little Italy's, China Town's, etcetera. Those aren't exactly abnormal, and it goes both ways as well (go to India, and you see sections of town predominantly inhabited by Americans. Heck, move from one state to another and you can often find the areas wherein Virginians or Marylanders congregate during events). It's easier for people to empathize and socialize with those whose behaviors are familiar to them. 

As for the argument that it's being politically correct / bending over to accommodate immigrants... my apologies if this is not up to date / accurate, but at least in France I don't think the problem is people being too _tolerant_ of Muslims.


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Just to say. Back when David Cameron vetoed the EU treaty that would have allowed the EU to tax and regulate our financial sector (which is bigger than several other EU countries put together) as well as forced us to go to the EU to get our budget signed, despite the EU not having its own budget signed 17 years in a row. The Europhile Nick Clegg was so furious that we hurt our relations with this artificial political construct called the EU, that he called all eurosceptics Xenophobes (among other things). 



> Nick Clegg has urged critics not to exploit the eurozone crisis to foster "xenophobia, chauvinism and polarisation" as doubts were cast on political efforts to save the single currency.



Xenophobia by definition refer to a "Intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries", which makes his statement bullshit. Because the EU and the people of the Eurozone are two different things. Just because you are sceptical of the European Union project doesn't mean you hate the people of Europe. UKIP in particular emphasise this separation, as they keep getting accused of being anti Europe for being anti EU. Basically he was effectively venting his frustration of people not simply obeying his EU masters, that he made up a totally unrelated extremist position and attempted to stamp that on the opposing group. 

My point?

The people trying to attach extremist positions on others for simply trying to discuss a particular subject, says a lot more about them than us. You will note the only mention of hating Muslims and immigrants in this thread are the actual people accusing others of doing so.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Dec 28, 2011)

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CannonFodder said:


> I was responding to amerikumaourUlfur, *SOME *EU countries culturally are homogenous whereas the USA both religiously and racially diverse; while at first glance the USA seems like a bunch of white Christians in actuality it varies greatly from Louisiana being extremely Christian to the New England states being barely religious at all; or for instance some nothern states being vast majority Caucasian to Hawaii having a Caucasian population just under 25%.
> Whereas minorities in *SOME* EU countries are stagnant percentage wise, in the USA Caucasians are going to become the minority in a couple decades and people are just going to have to deal with it.
> Again I say the USA relative to *SOME* EU countries is more multicultural, but it depends on which country.
> Don't believe me?  Visit Texas and see how large of a Hispanic population there is.
> ...


So, some areas of the USA are Monocultural, like some EU areas are...


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

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Toboe Moonclaw said:


> So, some areas of the USA are Monocultural, like some EU areas are...


Exactly.


ADF said:


> Xenophobia by definition refer to a "Intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries", which makes his statement bullshit. Because the EU and the people of the Eurozone are two different things. Just because you are sceptical of the European Union project doesn't mean you hate the people of Europe. UKIP in particular emphasise this separation, as they keep getting accused of being anti Europe for being anti EU. Basically he was effectively venting his frustration of people not simply obeying his EU masters, that he made up a totally unrelated extremist position and attempt to stamp that on the opposing group.
> 
> My point?
> 
> The people trying to attach extremist positions on others for simply trying to discuss a particular subject, says a lot more about them than us. You will note the only mention of hating Muslims and immigrants in this thread are the actual people accusing others of doing so.


Actually in this case I was referring to xenophobia in this case to arguments like randy's argument. Even with distrust of the eurozone or skepticism delving to the "these immigrants took mah job!" is out of line.

You can dislike the eurozone, you can dislike the nonassimilation into the society's culture, you can dislike the homogeneous cultures or the heterogeneous cultures, but stereotyping a entire group as stealing people's jobs and saying that they are invading your culture is xenophobia.


Attaman said:


> Go to most US cities. There's Little Italy's, China Town's, etcetera. Those aren't exactly abnormal, and it goes both ways as well (go to India, and you see sections of town predominantly inhabited by Americans. Heck, move from one state to another and you can often find the areas wherein Virginians or Marylanders congregate during events). It's easier for people to empathize and socialize with those whose behaviors are familiar to them.
> 
> As for the argument that it's being politically correct / bending over to accommodate immigrants... my apologies if this is not up to date / accurate, but at least in France I don't think the problem is people being too _tolerant_ of Muslims.


People need to chill out when it comes to someone else's religious beliefs; just cause someone believes something different from what you believe doesn't mean you need to force them to convert or that they have to convert.


----------



## Dreaming (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Apologies if I'm not making any sense...

There's also the fact that minorities have been segregated in Europe for centuries, where the indigenous populations would vastly outnumber them and often culturally reject and isolate them, forcefully for the most part. :B

Yea, this has been the case in the US in the past as well, but the US hasn't been exposed to that kind of segregation for quite as long, and being that the US was seen as a ''new start'' for a lot of people from a lot of cultures, there's a lot more cultural diversity in the US when compared to Europe. Besides, the US was pretty much built up by varying degrees of peoples and cultures. 

Disclaimer: This is purely observational. Excuse me while I pass out/


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## Attaman (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> My point?
> 
> The people trying to attach extremist positions on others for simply trying to discuss a particular subject, says a lot more about them than us. You will note the only mention of hating Muslims and immigrants in this thread are the actual people accusing others of doing so.


 Odd, since reading this thread you're the first person to mention bigotry and you claim that it's a non-factual argument (and go so far as to call multiculturalism a disease).

Next post on the subject is Ramsay, who mentions that in Britain at least there are areas you might be called Racist, but that the norm / standard is not "Muslims refuse to culturally assimilate".

Then comes Mayfurr talking about the irony in some situations, such as people in New Zealand complaining about a lack of cultural assimilation when natives are expected to conform to a newer, imported culture.

So, basically, your post... applies to yourself, and Randy (the one right after Mayfurr).

EDIT: Sorry, and AshleyAshes, but if my link is correct then his argument holds at least some merit.


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## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> You can dislike the eurozone, you can dislike the nonassimilation into the society's culture, you can dislike the homogeneous cultures or the heterogeneous cultures, but stereotyping a entire group as stealing people's jobs and saying that they are invading your culture is xenophobia.



Check the thread though. It's interesting that xenophobic themes didn't enter the thread, until the people who accused others of it got involved. The very people complaining about those themes introduced them into the thread in the first place.


----------



## Attaman (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Check the thread though. It's interesting that xenophobic themes didn't enter the thread, until the people who accused others of it got involved. The very people complaining about those themes introduced them into the thread in the first place.


The first post in this thread was you talking about the _disease of multiculturalism_.



ADF said:


> It's this multiculturalism disease that has infected European countries.



_The disease of multiculturalism_. 

I'm not sure where you're getting that xenophobic themes first appeared with comments like AshleyAshes'.


----------



## ADF (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Attaman said:


> The first post in this thread was you talking about the _disease of multiculturalism_.
> 
> _The disease of multiculturalism_.
> 
> I'm not sure where you're getting that xenophobic themes first appeared with comments like AshleyAshes'.



You're equating being anti multiculturism as being anti multi-cultural. Multiculturism is a failed system, even by the admition of world leaders like David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy. Just because I'm against a failed and damaging system, at least my countries application of it, doesn't mean I'm against what that system was attempting to address.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Check the thread though. It's interesting that xenophobic themes didn't enter the thread, until the people who accused others of it got involved. The very people complaining about those themes introduced them into the thread in the first place.


Well I half joked about it when referring to how the the topic of the thread has gone from refusal to assimilate culturally to, "these fucking immigrants need to leave".  In the case of France calling it xenophobia does apply though cause they want to keep their culture "pure".


AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> Apologies if I'm not making any sense...
> 
> There's also the fact that minorities have been segregated in Europe for centuries, where the indigenous populations would vastly outnumber them and often culturally reject and isolate them, forcefully for the most part. :B
> 
> ...


I think part of the reason why multiculturalism in the usa is because for hundreds of years the usa had slaves in insane numbers and after the civil war they didn't just ship everyone back; however for over a century and a half interracial marriage was either illegal or looked down upon.  Nowadays there are states like Mississippi with a large number of people who still believe it should be illegal, however it's not enough to prevent the constant passage of time.


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## AshleyAshes (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

I'm kinda wondering where CannonFodder even gets the idea that 'muslim americans assimilate culturally to the point you don't know many people's religious beliefs until asked'.  I'm actually thinking that CannonFodder has mistaken 'That small chunk of Texas that she lives in' for 'All of America'.

Go check out the Muslim populations in Michigan or something CannonFodder, it'll probably be the first state to eventually be under Sharia Law afterall.   Seriously, you have a very limited experience, you've taken that experience and cast it as a view of all of the United States and then you've contrasted that experience agianst a rather extreme example rising out of the federal court system of another country.


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## Tycho (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> Go check out the Muslim populations in Michigan or something CannonFodder, it'll probably be the first state to eventually be under Sharia Law afterall.



Dearborn, MI has the USA's largest mosque/masjid (whichever), IIRC


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> I'm kinda wondering where CannonFodder even gets the idea that 'muslim americans assimilate culturally to the point you don't know many people's religious beliefs until asked'.  I'm actually thinking that CannonFodder has mistaken 'That small chunk of Texas that she lives in' for 'All of America'.
> 
> Go check out the Muslim populations in Michigan or something CannonFodder, it'll probably be the first state to eventually be under Sharia Law afterall.   Seriously, you have a very limited experience, you've taken that experience and cast it as a view of all of the United States and then you've contrasted that experience agianst a rather extreme example rising out of the federal court system of another country.


Sometimes I wonder if you are purposefully combative to alienate yourself.

But as for what you've said, muslims count for a small percentage of americans so I highly doubt they're going to take over the usa culturally as a whole.  Secondly you can guess correctly a moderate amount of times that someone is muslim by thinking all people of arabic descent are muslim, but that's incredibly stupid cause there's many non-arabic muslims in the world and not all people of arabic descent are muslim.  That's the sort of thinking that during the new york mosque a couple of blocks away from ground zero caused protesters to attack a christian simply cause he was arabic.  Also I have been to other states, no I am not applying what I've said to every place, cause yes there are areas where muslim americans retain their cultural roots, it's more of a case of the parents retaining their culture and the kids abandoning it when they grow up. And finally if I did have a limited experience I would be thinking you rode a moose and had competitions to see who could drink the most maple syrup while watching hockey games 'eh.  So yes, I do know a chunk of muslim americans don't culturally assimilate, but they're nowhere near the norm as opposed to the situation in the EU.


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## The_Mask (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Aaaand attempting to make a comment that isn't off topic of the OP

I don't think it's a matter of assimilation, I think it's a matter of whether or not the, eh, natives (for want of a better word) feel they have a need to defend their culture. France is rather an interesting nation in my opinion in that it has entire govt. bureaucracies dedicated to the preservation of its culture. Notably, France has policies in place to prevent the integration of other languages into its own. So naturally, a nation that defensive of its culture will not be terribly fond of immigrants of a drastically different one. Oppression against said immigrants arises, and said immigrants, in this case ones who are of Islamic faith, get defensive in return. Whenever a particular group of people is oppressed, even if it is simply social and not by law, they tend to be more open and showy of whatever bit of themselves is being oppressed (I feel like oppression is too strong a word here, but fuck it I don't feel like thinking up another one). In countries that don't really give a shit about other cultures coming into their own, this isn't really a problem. In the case of the US, I don't think many people really care. I live in a part of Dallas that has a large Islamic population. You wouldn't know it looking at the people, but there is no reason for them to be open about it. We've just gone through too much of that shit as a country already.


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## Kellie Gator (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> It's this multiculturalism disease that has infected European countries.
> 
> The idea is the best way to show the most tolerance and respect is to bend over backwards to accommodate others, even if that means butchering your own culture and values system. So there is little reason to integrate when the locals are all too willing to accommodate everything you want, through fear of looking racist and bigoted if they do not.


Dude, no. Just no. As someone grown up in a multi-cultured society I can say that I'm damn happy to be living among several cultures because it's helped me be a more understanding person and I get to meet a lot of cool people because of it. As long as the muslims aren't hurting anyone, why should you care? Multiculturalism isn't a disease, separation is.



Caroline Dax said:


> Also in America, cops tend to respond with more force and take bullshit from noone. Which is not a bad thing all the time.


Yes it is. Violence doesn't solve shit.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Hence why we are supposed to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas" Fuck.....that. This is my country and I was bought up to say Happy christmas and in my own country that is what I will bloody well call it. I remember in the news some time ago where a school stopped putting the cross on hot cross buns in case it "offended" their Muslim students. First off the cross on a hot cross bun looks nothing like a fucking crucifix it looks very much like this +, secondly we should be able to show our own religious beliefs, especially in our own country. If those Muslims don't like our religions and our culture then they know where the fucking airports are.


Hello, xenophobia.

As for the burkha thing, I don't want it to be banned because it's trampling all over the muslims freedom of expression and in case you didn't know, some women wear burkha because THEY WANT TO. Has that ever crossed your minds?

Fucking hell, I can't believe the bigotry I see in here.


----------



## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> Yes it is. Violence doesn't solve shit.
> 
> Hello, xenophobia.
> As for the burkha thing, I don't want it to be banned because it's trampling all over the muslims freedom of expression and in case you didn't know, some women wear burkha because THEY WANT TO. Has that ever crossed your minds?
> ...


I agree police brutality doesn't solve anything.

I'm no longer surprised with _some_ of the responses this thread is getting that the muslims in europe don't want to assimilate culturally.  If I was a immigrant and people were saying that I'm out to destroy their country and steal their jobs I wouldn't wanna hang out with them.


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## Fay V (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Smelge said:


> I support the banning of the burkha though. I don't see why one group of people should be given free reign to go around with their faces concealed. If motorcyclists have to take off their helmets to go into garages so the CCTV can record them, then everyone else should remove face coverings.


For my old job I had to check the student IDs, there was a girl that came in with a burka on. The best part is she showed me her ID while her face was still covered. 
Nice girl though. 

Buuut yeah. You see non-assimilation with the USA too. Particularly with illegal immigrants and such. There's china towns and little italys and such but for the most part that's just a bit more flavor than normal. Most people in those areas can get along just fine outside the chinatown area. It is the cultures which are hated where the people will turn inward and wont assimilate. Hence France has issues. 

I suppose it helps that the USA never really had a culture to "protect" our thing is that we are everything, the scraps of the world if poetry is anything to go by. This is the ideal we're meant to live up to anyway, americans are pretty xenophobic too. 

I sometimes find it amusing to imagine the statue of liberty as a gift from the french, considering how much french culture rejects outsiders. Yet lady liberty is meant to represent the open arms to the immigrants. Give us your tired, hungry...blah blah blah. It's like the french did it on purpose "no no, you taken them!"


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Fay V said:


> Buuut yeah. You see non-assimilation with the USA too. Particularly with illegal immigrants and such. There's china towns and little italys and such but for the most part that's just a bit more flavor than normal. Most people in those areas can get along just fine outside the chinatown area. It is the cultures which are hated where the people will turn inward and wont assimilate. Hence France has issues.


The biggest problem here if you ask me is the people opposed to the multiculturalism and such; they've done some serious violence against Muslims and that, whereas only a handful of Muslim Americans have actually done anything.
It's like trying to stop a panfire by burning down the whole house.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> I thought you lived on government assistance, Randy.  You are rarely employed and resort to selling bikes on Craigslist.  Or do you live off your family instead?


Yes, I do, but you have no idea how fucking hard it is to keep hold of welfare when you claim it here. Or how much of a pain in the ass it is to reclaim it if it gets stopped. Hence why I do everything I am told to do cause it's a lot easier to do as I am told then to risk loosing it all and having to file a reclaim.

Which is my hole point, immigrants come here and they don't have to go  through the same crap I have to go through. I've known people to loose  their welfare because they failed to show up at an appointment because  they were attending their parents funeral. Any excuse they can find to  stop your money here they will stop it.

I almost had mine stopped because I had an appointment made for me that  THEY never told me about. I only found out when I went to sign on and my  adviser gave me a reminder about it, a reminder about an appointment I  didn't know I had in the first place.

the government are planning to make us pay 20% towards our rent, there is no fucking way I can afford that on the amount of welfare I get and I am living in the cheapest possible accommodation here. It's like our government wants to make lives like mine as hard as fucking possible yet they give everything to these fucking immigrants, and people wonder why people like me have such a problem with it.

In short the government here treat people like me as shit but treat immigrants like royalty.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

I don't believe I just quoted myself instead of edited my post.


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## General-jwj (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

> Americans and British talking about French problems (no, I kid, I kid ... :V)

As a Walloon, I guess I'm probably considered as the "I can't believe it's not butter" to France's butter I guess ? So I might as well share my experiences and thoughts.

I was born and (until quite recently full time, now only on weekends and holidays) live in Charleroi, a city with a very large arab community (mostly from Turkey and Morocco). I also went to a public school in a neither-classy-nor-dirt-poor environment, so we had all sorts. In my class, there were twice as many as there were any other "ethnicity". None of them wore the Burka, as far as I know from seeing them at reunions none of their mothers wore burkas, and about half of them wore veils (talking about the girls only obviously).
They were rather strict (by my lax standards as an agnostic ex-protestant who went to church once a month) about their religion but never pushed it onto others. I could talk to them while eating a ham and cheese sandwich and they'd just wiggle their finger and joke that I'd go to Hell (yeah it sounds mean but it was a joke ) ... Also there were no problems with showing the religion thing since the catholic church's influence in public schools has been banned since a long damn time ago (no crucifixes on the walls or that kind of bullshit) and is only found in specifically catholic schools that aren't part of the public system (as far as I know. I'm not very knowledgeable on the matter) ...
There was even a couple of twins who's father was a religion teacher (because there are still religion classes for a measly two hours a week, and you get to choose which one you want to attend) and they weren't fanatical sharia proponents or whatever. The girl didn't even wear a veil or anything and her father approved. They were just very fiery when it came to the topic of religion and liked debating the pros and cons and reasons and whatever of other people's religions and beliefs.

Where was I going with this ? Oh yeah, well no religions clashes, no nothing, just a bunch of people with parents born in another country (hell, I could be lumped in with them since my mother is English !) living their lives without causing any trouble, just like anyone else.

That's the situation most of the time where I live anyway (I've heard of exceptions but I'm gonna dismiss them since they came from a blonde asshole who pretty much  told everyone he was a racist and was proud to be one) ... I once went to a school in Blankenberg for a couple of days for a linguistic thing, and didn't see anyone there that wasn't tall, blonde and blue-eyed. I wonder where all the arabs in the Belgian Coast are ? Â°_Â°


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Their high resistance quotient makes them difficult to assimilate.


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## Onnes (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> In short the government here treat people like me as shit but treat immigrants like royalty.



You keep saying this but you don't back it up with anything. Would you mind citing something that actually proves preferential treatment for immigrants?

Those in other countries, as well as many in the here, often seem to underestimate just how well Muslim immigrants assimilate into American culture. Just because one still adheres to their religion by wearing appropriate attire and attending services at a mosque does not mean they haven't assimilated. I think that many people, perhaps subconsciously, automatically treat any follower of Islam as foreign regardless of their cultural leanings.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Onnes said:


> You keep saying this but you don't back it up with anything. Would you mind citing something that actually proves preferential treatment for immigrants?
> 
> Those in other countries, as well as many in the here, often seem to underestimate just how well Muslim immigrants assimilate into American culture. Just because one still adheres to their religion by wearing appropriate attire and attending services at a mosque does not mean they haven't assimilated. I think that many people, perhaps subconsciously, automatically treat any follower of Islam as foreign regardless of their cultural leanings.



I already told you what they get when they come over. Why do you think I never see a muslim at one of the many job schemes the job center runs, why do you think I never see a muslim in the job center looking for work. Because they already have our fucking jobs. If it wasn't fucking true I wouldn't be sat here bitching about it.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> Dude, no. Just no. As someone grown up in a multi-cultured society I can say that I'm damn happy to be living among several cultures because it's helped me be a more understanding person and I get to meet a lot of cool people because of it. As long as the muslims aren't hurting anyone, why should you care? Multiculturalism isn't a disease, separation is.



You're equating being multi-cultural and state enforced multiculturism as being the same thing. That's a rather dangerous mentality, as it perpetuates the use of a failed system of encouraging multi cultural integration because of a "this way or nothing" attitude.


----------



## Attaman (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> You're equating being anti multiculturism as being anti multi-cultural.


 First, word this better. 

Second, when you say things such as:


ADF said:


> The idea is the best way to show the most tolerance and respect is to bend over backwards to accommodate others, even if that means butchering your own culture and values system.



And 



ADF said:


> They don't get there are aggressive opportunists that will take advantage of this attitude to convert their areas into mini versions of their own country, who have no interest in integrating with the local population in the slightest.



It becomes, well, _heavily_ implied that you are perfectly fine with multiple cultures... so long as yours is on top. With the multiple other cultures becoming watered down to become the dominant at their base.



ADF said:


> Multiculturism is a failed system, even by the admition of world leaders like David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy.


 The latter of which is firmly of the belief that immigrants must shed off their old culture entirely or take the boot back to their home nation? The former which equates "Muslim" with "Political Extremisim"?

We might as well look upon Rick Perry to see how effective "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was.



ADF said:


> Just because I'm against a failed and damaging system, at least my countries application of it, doesn't mean I'm against what that system was attempting to address.


 Again, at least in regard to France (which is Cannonfodder's title-point), the issue is not Muslims failing to assimilate. It's that France is, well, a complete dick on a social scale. 




Randy-Darkshade said:


> I already told you what they get when they come over. Why do you think I never see a muslim at one of the many job schemes the job center runs, why do you think *I never see a muslim* in the job center looking for work. Because *they already have our fucking jobs*. If it wasn't fucking true I wouldn't be sat here bitching about it.


 Randy, you are horrifying. Even disregarding your "took our jobs" bolding, disregarding that if an Immigrant does better than you it means the _system_ is rigged against _you_ and it's impossible to be related to any of your failings, that you feel you can identify a follower of Islam without fail simply by looking at them is absolutely horrifying.


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Randy is a Xenophobe with a brain of an old angry white man.

How surprising.


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## General-jwj (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Why did I post in this thread.


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## Ad Hoc (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Cultural enclaves are a common phenomenon, unique to neither Islam nor France.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

How comes, that everyone wants the muslims to *ASSIMILATE  *(give up any culture they may have had), instead of *INTEGRATE* (like the ones in general jwj's post)?


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## Dreaming (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> Hello, xenophobia.
> 
> As for the burkha thing, I don't want it to be banned because it's trampling all over the muslims freedom of expression and in case you didn't know, some women wear burkha because THEY WANT TO. Has that ever crossed your minds?


It's kind of funny actually...


''Herp derp the burqa is a sign of oppression and gender inequality, so lets ban it and arrest anyone who doesn't follow this law! YEA THAT MAKES SENSE''


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> Hello, xenophobia.
> 
> As for the burkha thing, I don't want it to be banned because it's trampling all over the muslims freedom of expression and in case you didn't know, some women wear burkha because THEY WANT TO. Has that ever crossed your minds?
> 
> Fucking hell, I can't believe the bigotry I see in here.



What the fuck Kellie? I'm not fucking xenophobic. So now just because I want equality in my own fucking country I'm a xenophobe? fuck you. If wanting the right to express my own religious beliefs makes me a bigot then I guess I am. There was once a woman who worked on an airline who's bosses made her hide her crucifix in case "It offended any Muslims" She took said bosses to court and won. My point is, if Muslims can show their religion by wearing turbans and Burkhas then we should be able to express ours, especially in our own country. If I went to India I would not expect the Indians to change their ways just in case they "offend me"

You clearly can not read Kellie, because I have stated more than once in this thread that I am happy for foreigners to be present here, I just want our government to treat us equally. 

Oh but I forget, silly me, people here only read what they WANT to read.

I also hope your Burkha comment was not aimed at me, because I never said I wanted it banned. I don;t give a rats ass what they wear, even if I think it's dumb that we can only see the eyes on Muslim women, it's still their culture and they can do what they like.


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> What the fuck Kellie? I'm not fucking xenophobic.





Randy-Darkshade said:


> I already told you what they get when they come over. Why do you think I never see a muslim at one of the many job schemes the job center runs, why do you think I never see a muslim in the job center looking for work. Because they already have our fucking jobs. If it wasn't fucking true I wouldn't be sat here bitching about it.



k.


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## VoidBat (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

For some individuals arriving to a completely new country it can create both a cultural shock and a sense of insecurity. Therefore I find it understandable that you probably want to live close to someone that shares the same language/culture. However, if you let matters get out of hand you'll soon have a secluded, mini-society that lives in the society. Now that's dangerous, trying to distance and isolate yourself will only fuel the "We and Them"-mentality. Assimilate? Don't know about that, what is needed is integration.

That said, I've met tons of Muslims who loves the be apart of society, and find great interest in our culture. There are rotten apples on both sides here, so you got to sort them out to find the true gems. Of course, the media only focus on the rotten ones since it creates publicity, and that is a shame. Yes, I've been to RosengÃ¥rd and I haven't had any molotov cocktails or fireworks thrown at me.


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## Koze (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

White people bitching about people of color trying to earn an honest living as they do.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## Attaman (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> What the fuck Kellie? I'm not fucking xenophobic.





Randy-Darkshade said:


> I already told you what they get when they come over. Why do you think I never see a muslim at one of the many job schemes the job center runs, why do you think *I never see a muslim* in the job center looking for work. Because *they already have our fucking jobs*. If it wasn't fucking true I wouldn't be sat here bitching about it.


 


Randy-Darkshade said:


> If wanting the right to express my own religious beliefs makes me a bigot then I guess I am.


 You're making a false equivalency, though. You're acting as though wearing a Burqa is akin to wearing a cross. It's not, and if anything wearing a cross is _frowned upon_ by Christianity as a minor form of idol-worship. A Burqa is a dress concern, comparable to a Sikh's Kirpan or Jewish Kippah. A cross is just a proclamation of one's faith, and at times a perceived connection with one's divine (kissing the cross for luck / blessing, holding it when giving prayer, etcetera). And, as a note, the same policies that speak out against Burqa's often speak out against the prior examples I gave as well (and vice-versa: Those who defend the right to a Burqa often share their defense toward Kirpans, Kippahs, and so-on).



Randy-Darkshade said:


> There was once a woman who worked on an airline who's bosses made her hide her crucifix in case "It offended any Muslims"


 Says the one who thinks "Happy Holidays" is an attack on Christians, which is funny as Christians cannot claim "authority" over end-of-year holidays considering Christmas was stolen from the Germanic Yule-Tide tradition. Or, in other words, "Happy Holidays" is not stealing Christmas, "Merry Christmas" is stealing the holidays celebrated in Late December.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> My point is, if Muslims can show their religion by wearing turbans and Burkhas then we should be able to express ours,


 You can, and do, all the time. Christianity is not on the defensive, especially considering that all but 10% of the world's Christians live in nations wherein they are the majority (if not super-majority) of the population.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> especially in *our own *country.


 Funny, I could have sworn Europe was free of Theocracy.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> If I went to India I would not expect the Indians to change their ways just in case they "offend me"


 Funnily enough, that's what the British did. Bring culture to Savages, and what-not.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> You clearly can not read Kellie, because I have stated more than once in this thread that I am happy for foreigners to be present here,





Randy-Darkshade said:


> I already told you what they get when they come over. Why do you think I never see a muslim at one of the many job schemes the job center runs, why do you think *I never see a muslim* in the job center looking for work. Because *they already have our fucking jobs*. If it wasn't fucking true I wouldn't be sat here bitching about it.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

So, is Randy happy that the Muslims took all the Christians jobs?  I think that's how I'm understanding it.  I guess it gives him more time to talk about bicycles?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Attaman said:


> You're making a false equivalency, though. You're acting as though wearing a Burqa is akin to wearing a cross. It's not, and if anything wearing a cross is _frowned upon_ by Christianity as a minor form of idol-worship. A Burqa is a dress concern, comparable to a Sikh's Kirpan or Jewish Kippah.



I was taught that the Burkha is worn due to their religion, I can not help if I was taught wrong.



> Says the one who thinks "Happy Holidays" is an attack on Christians,



I never said it was an attack on Christians. It's what our government said should be said because it's "Politically Correct" and their reason back then was because Muslims and other similar religions may find "Merry Christmas" offensive. 



> You can, and do, all the time. Christianity is not on the defensive, especially considering that all but 10% of the world's Christians live in nations wherein they are the majority (if not super-majority) of the population.



Only because most choose not to be as PC as the government wanted us to be.

 Also, I have no idea what you're trying to prove with the last two quotes from me. I stated truth, I have never seen a Muslim, or any foreigner in my local job center. 

Also, not all these foreigners are law abiding citizens either. Two years ago Le Moon Chinese restaurant was raided by police and illegal immigrants were found (this was in a town just 9 miles from me) In my own town, the Chubby Panda was raided and again, illegal immigrants were found working there.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> So, is Randy happy that the Muslims took all the Christians jobs?  I think that's how I'm understanding it.  I guess it gives him more time to talk about bicycles?



I'm speaking in general, not just about muslims and christians. there's the polish who come over too, and not all of them are legal either. Problem is, the illegal ones give the good ones a bad light.



HyBroMcYenapants said:


> k.



Not liking the government for how they treat immigrants better than their own people is not the same as disliking immigrants, but you're not smart enough to realize that.


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## Attaman (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> I was taught that the Burkha is worn due to their religion, I can not help if I was taught wrong.


 Some choose to wear such, but more often than not Burqa's are not worn like a cross on a chain.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> I never said it was an attack on Christians. It's what our government said should be said because it's "Politically Correct" and their reason back then was because Muslims and other similar religions may find "Merry Christmas" offensive.


 Yes, it's purely because of "Teh Mooslems" that the UK (and the world, for that matter) chooses to say "Happy Holidays", again ignoring the fact that Happy Holidays is much less offensive than "Merry Christmas" without resorting to the "Political Correctness" defense. Especially considering over a dozen non-Christian holidays and holidays rifled by Christianity occur during the period generally known as the "Twelve Days of Christmas".



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Also, I have no idea what you're trying to prove with the last two quotes from me. I stated truth, I have never seen a Muslim, or any foreigner in my local job center.


 And it's completely horrifying that you think a Muslim can be picked out immediately with a casual glance, are implying that UK Muslims are Foreigners, and that Foreigners should stand out like a sore thumb.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Also, not all these foreigners are law abiding citizens either. Two years ago Le Moon Chinese restaurant was raided by police and illegal immigrants were found (this was in a town just 9 miles from me) In my own town, the Chubby Panda was raided and again, illegal immigrants were found working there.


 And you assume that because Illegal Immigrants are working there, the Government is giving them those jobs? Even though you directly admitted just now that, when found, they're removed?


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## Fay V (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Not liking the government for how they treat immigrants better than their own people is not the same as disliking immigrants, *but you're not smart enough to realize that*.



Don't resort to that. throwing out random insults that have nothing to do with the debate will just get you infracted and banned.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Attaman said:


> And it's completely horrifying that you think a Muslim can be picked out immediately with a casual glance, are implying that UK Muslims are Foreigners, and that Foreigners should stand out like a sore thumb.



Correct me if I am wrong, but many muslims have much darker skin than us. Also, I have ears, I can hear accents ya know.



> And you assume that because Illegal Immigrants are working there, the Government is giving them those jobs? Even though you directly admitted just now that, when found, they're removed?



Umm, no. I was just pointing out that not all of then who move to another country do it legally.


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## Dreaming (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but many muslims have much darker skin than us. Also, I have ears, I can hear accents ya know.



Assuming that all people with darker skin are Muslims, and all have similar accents????


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> Assuming that all people with darker skin are Muslims, and all have similar accents????



The accents I meant in general, Polish, French, etc etc. I should have said slightly darker skin than us, not much darker, that's a derp on my part. I'm speaking in sorta Indian skin color. then again I don't assume all Indians to be Muslim either, there are more than one religion out there ya know.


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> Assuming that all people with darker skin are Muslims, and all have similar accents????



And taking all the Welfare and Jobs and they like that hippity hop music and the Allah thing and....


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## Fay V (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> The accents I meant in general, Polish, French, etc etc. I should have said slightly darker skin than us, not much darker, that's a derp on my part. I'm speaking in sorta Indian skin color. then again I don't assume all Indians to be Muslim either, there are more than one religion out there ya know.



White people can be muslim too. Shocker I know.


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## OssumPawesome (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Fay V said:


> White people can be muslim too. Shocker I know.



He meant the bad muslims.

You know, the brown ones.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



HyBroMcYenapants said:


> And taking all the Welfare and Jobs and they like that hippity hop music and the Allah thing and....



I confess, I do like the punjab music. And the dance that goes with it.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

I've known Caucasian Canadian Muslims who had accents like that of the San Fernando Valley.  They also had jobs.  ...RANDY'S JOBS! :V


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## HyBroMcYenapants (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



OssumPawesome said:


> He meant the bad muslims.
> 
> You know, the brown ones.



All terrorists arent Muslims but all Muslims are brown terrorists.

Or the other way around

Point is BAD MUSLIMS


----------



## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Attaman said:


> First, word this better.



Multiculturalism isn't simply a generic reference to multiple cultures co-existing. It's a government programme for encouraging multiculturalism by adopting certain approaches, an approach that has clearly and admittedly failed.

People need to differentiate between being against the multiculturalism programme and being against multiculturalism itself. It's like accusing me of being against having a fishing policy for being against the common fisheries policy.

How about I refer to it as "state multiculturalism" to differentiate?



Attaman said:


> It becomes, well, heavily implied that you are perfectly fine with multiple cultures... so long as yours is on top. With the multiple other cultures becoming watered down to become the dominant at their base.
> 
> -
> 
> The latter of which is firmly of the belief that immigrants must shed off their old culture entirely or take the boot back to their home nation? The former which equates "Muslim" with "Political Extremisim"?



It's not implied at all. You're taking a genuine and admitted problem and trying to make it sound like I'm bigoted against other cultures... You're also suggesting that having a culture of your own is somehow bigoted, that you have to constantly make accommodations for others or you're as you just described. That's part of the problem with state multiculturalism, it makes you apologetic for your own culture and constantly favour others. For a British person in a British country to water down their own culture through fear of offending a foreign one.

Maybe in America because of their history they are more open, but in countries with histories going back a thousand years; it's more difficult. But that doesn't make the local population bigots for simply taking pride in their own local culture.

Real multiculturalism is about mutual respect. It is not the one way relationship that state multiculturalism attempted to enforce, with this mentality that all cultures are intrinsically equal; and all we need to do is keep accommodating others until they respect us. That is just a invitation to be walked all over by certain unsavoury people like the hate mongers on the streets of London, which the government reacts to with MORE accommodations and respect, which has resulted in the dangerous segregation we see now. There are just some people who will not integrate, no matter how nice and understanding you attempt to be, they're not interested in mutual respect.

It's dangerous because there are some otherwise sane countries considering anti blasphemy laws in an effort to appease the most radical segment of their Muslim immigrants, oppressing everyone with draconian and subjective laws to appease one small group that will never be satisfied. But state multiculturalism being what it is, it's going to keep offering accommodations in the hope they will eventually come round...

State multiculturalism does not differentiate between genuine community leaders and loud fanatics. Enabling a small group of radicals to get their way under the assumption they represent that community.



Attaman said:


> Again, at least in regard to France (which is Cannonfodder's title-point), the issue is not Muslims failing to assimilate. It's that France is, well, a complete dick on a social scale.



OP talks about France and England. I live in England, so I've been talking about that.


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## Dreaming (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Fay V said:


> White people can be muslim too. Shocker I know.


It may not be as commonplace, but you get the ''darker skinned'' Christians as well.


----------



## Tycho (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> It may not be as commonplace, but you get the ''darker skinned'' Christians as well.



Why wouldn't it be as commonplace? There are tons of black churches all over the States, especially in the South.


----------



## Fay V (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> It may not be as commonplace, but you get the ''darker skinned'' Christians as well.



No no, that's totally okay. It's fine if the darker skinned people are christian, we just can't have any of that dark skinned religion around. We're the civilized ones remember?


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## Mayfurr (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> You're also suggesting that having a culture of your own is somehow bigoted, that you have to constantly make accommodations for others or you're as you just described. That's part of the problem with state multiculturalism, it makes you apologetic for your own culture and constantly favour others.



Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly how other cultures are "constantly favoured" over your own - because all I'm seeing is that "constantly favoured" is little more than acknowledgement and understanding that other cultures actually _exist_ in the UK.



ADF said:


> Real multiculturalism is about mutual respect.



I'd like to know how you reconcile "mutual respect" with your following statement: 



ADF said:


> ...this mentality that all cultures are intrinsically equal...



How the hell can you claim "mutual respect" WITHOUT acknowledging equality of cultures? Your statement still reads like "mutual respect = you acknowledge my culture as superior to yours, and dump everything in your culture that I don't like".



ADF said:


> There are just some people who will not integrate, no matter how nice and understanding you attempt to be, they're not interested in mutual respect.



And there are other people who won't _let_ immigrants integrate, no matter how nice and understanding the immigrants attempt to be. They're not interested in mutual respect - simply "assimilate or GTFO".


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Well as interesting the last two pages have been; now that we know why they don't integrate culturally in such places, why is it that other countries Muslim immigrants do so?  Like Belgium, the usa, and other countries.  Beg your pardon I'm not sure what other countries they integrate to extremes.


----------



## Kellie Gator (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> You're equating being multi-cultural and state enforced multiculturism as being the same thing. That's a rather dangerous mentality, as it perpetuates the use of a failed system of encouraging multi cultural integration because of a "this way or nothing" attitude.


I don't see the problem as long as you're still living in a democracy where everyone has equal rights. As much as I hate governments as a whole I can safely say that they probably won't bend over for every muslim ideology ever. At least that's the case in Sweden, where you still get your ass thrown in jail if you beat your wife regardless of what religion you belong to.



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> It's kind of funny actually...
> 
> 
> ''Herp derp the burqa is a sign of oppression and gender inequality, so lets ban it and arrest anyone who doesn't follow this law! YEA THAT MAKES SENSE''


It's so funny when people try to speak for someone else's behalf when approaching issues like that. It's the same with prostitution which seems to be commonly accepted as misogyny and rape by default even though a lot of happens between two consenting adults.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> What the fuck Kellie? I'm not fucking xenophobic. So now just because I want equality in my own fucking country I'm a xenophobe? fuck you. If wanting the right to express my own religious beliefs makes me a bigot then I guess I am. There was once a woman who worked on an airline who's bosses made her hide her crucifix in case "It offended any Muslims" She took said bosses to court and won. My point is, if Muslims can show their religion by wearing turbans and Burkhas then we should be able to express ours, especially in our own country. If I went to India I would not expect the Indians to change their ways just in case they "offend me"
> 
> You clearly can not read Kellie, because I have stated more than once in this thread that I am happy for foreigners to be present here, I just want our government to treat us equally.
> 
> ...


I agree that muslims have obligations too and how they can't just tell anyone to get rid of their crucifixes (although that's not a problem here because religion is hardly displayed in public areas) but you're hardly oppressed since whiteys still occupy most of England and it's been proven that immigrants don't steal jobs. On the contrary they help to create new jobs. I just wish I could share a source but it's in Swedish so it'll just look like gibberish I'm afraid. D:

And the burqa think was just a general statement so don't worry about that.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> I don't see the problem as long as you're still living in a democracy where everyone has equal rights. As much as I hate governments as a whole I can safely say that they probably won't bend over for every muslim ideology ever. At least that's the case in Sweden, where you still get your ass thrown in jail if you beat your wife regardless of what religion you belong to.
> 
> 
> It's so funny when people try to speak for someone else's behalf when approaching issues like that. It's the same with prostitution which seems to be commonly accepted as misogyny and rape by default even though a lot of happens between two consenting adults.
> ...


If you ask me people need to truly have equal rights, there's too many cases where governments make exceptions and reduce rights of people.  The most obvious of which is countries like the usa refusing to allow gay marriage, but more subtly of france's treatment of outside cultures and groups and treatment of muslim immigrants, or even extremely subtle things such as making illegal drugs used by the rich barely even a crime giving Lindsey Lohan so many times getting away with it whereas other drugs barely addictive will see you in prison for a craplong time.

If a woman is FORCED to wear a burqa I don't think that's right, but if their parents aren't forcing them, their government isn't, their mosque isn't, then that's their own business and choice.


----------



## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Mayfurr said:


> Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly how other cultures are "constantly favoured" over your own - because all I'm seeing is that "constantly favoured" is little more than acknowledgement and understanding that other cultures actually exist in the UK.



I think I'd look like a fanatic if I were able to give every example over my lifetime. I'm sorry that I don't keep a detailed diary every time these issues are brought up in the news.

The fact that EU wide blasphemy laws are a ongoing issue, which would make every citizen of a member state subject to criminalization for offending a Muslim for god knows whatever reason, is reason enough for concern. Because no other group are demanding criminal charges for religious offence than this fanatical minority.



Mayfurr said:


> How the hell can you claim "mutual respect" WITHOUT acknowledging equality of cultures? Your statement still reads like "mutual respect = you acknowledge my culture as superior to yours, and dump everything in your culture that I don't like".



This sort of thinking is dangerous and exactly an example of one of the problems with state enforced multiculturalism.

Not all cultures are equal.

I suspect the automatic reaction to that statement is to scream "racism racism!", which is usually what you get from these multiculturalism apologetics. Either everyone submits to their ideology, as many problems as it causes, or they're a racist. That sort of thinking is what has kept people quiet about the problems this system caused for so long.

It's really quite simple. Honour killing is not respected in our culture. The subjugation of an entire gender is not respected in our culture. Homophobia is not respected in our culture and so on.

To say all cultures are equal is to ignore there are inevitably going to be things that are acceptable in one culture that are unacceptable in ours. Things we never want to become tolerant of or become "respectful" of our differences. You cannot treat all cultures as being equal to your own without scrutiny, it makes you blind to injustices. This mentality is why burkas are being tolerated in this country, when we claim to treat women as equals.

Demanding that all cultures be seen as equal, without question, is demanding tolerance of intolerance wherever it occurs.



Mayfurr said:


> And there are other people who won't let immigrants integrate, no matter how nice and understanding the immigrants attempt to be. They're not interested in mutual respect - simply "assimilate or GTFO".



They're not getting laws put in place around Europe to criminalize anyone who dares offend their religion, with the definition as to what is offensive being very broad.

I'll concern myself with the nationalist when they've got enough influence to cause a problem. Given that the BNP is the laughing stock of the country and everyone looks down on them, they're not a threat. What's a threat is the fanatical minority in this country that get the governments ear, because the government thinks appeasing them is a form of mutual respect.


----------



## Kellie Gator (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> The fact that EU wide blasphemy laws are a ongoing issue, which would make every citizen of a member state subject to criminalization for offending a Muslim for god knows whatever reason, is reason enough for concern. Because no other group are demanding criminal charges for religious offence than this fanatical minority.


Do you even have valid proof that the governments are changing a significant amount of laws to fit the tastes of muslims?

I also find something in this amusing because a lot of modern laws are to some extent based on christian ideologies.




ADF said:


> It's really quite simple. Honour killing is not respected in our culture. The subjugation of an entire gender is not respected in our culture. Homophobia is not respected in our culture and so on.


Guess where else honor killing isn't respected? It begins with a "K" and ends with "oran".



ADF said:


> To say all cultures are equal is to ignore there are inevitably going to be things that are acceptable in one culture that are unacceptable in ours. Things we never want to become tolerant of or become "respectful" of our differences. You cannot treat all cultures as being equal to your own without scrutiny, it makes you blind to injustices. This mentality is why burkas are being tolerated in this country, when we claim to treat women as equals.


Uh, violence and sexism isn't a result of equality so there's no ways it will be accepted in a democracy. Stop being so xenophobic and live in reality for once.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> Do you even have valid proof that the governments are changing a significant amount of laws to fir the tastes of muslims?
> 
> I also find something in this amusing because a lot of modern laws are to some extent based on christian ideologies.



Radical Muslims are the only ones demanding these blasphemy laws. Not just in the EU, but they were demanded in the UN as well. Geert Wilders is an EU example of someone being subject to blasphemy charges.



Kellie Gator said:


> Guess where else honor killing isn't respected? It begins with a "K" and ends with "oran".



Then we look at the real world and Muslim honour killing is a problem in the UK.

That you talk about it not being in the Koran is suggesting my problem is with the religion itself. This is a cultural problem that has been imported into the UK.



Kellie Gator said:


> Uh, violence and sexism isn't tolerance so there's no ways it will be accepted in a democracy. Stop being so xenophobic and live in reality for once.



Too many people are so terrified of being accused of being racist that they refuse to recognise the problems; and that's why they get out of hand.

How can a country that claims to respect women, allow those women to live Afghanistan style lives in the capital of the country? There are British Muslim organisations working to help these women that are forced to wear burkas and live second class citizen lives when they don't have to. But the government refuses to do anything about it themselves, because their attitude towards multiculturalism is so outdated and flawed it may be regarded as "disrespectful" towards that culture to... you know... force others to treat women with equal rights in OUR country.

People like you are part of the problem. Because rather than recognise there is a problem, you accused anyone suggesting there is one of being an xenophobe. No one wants to be considered a racist, so they stay quite and let things stay shit like they are, all because other people were scared to look the other way because of ill placed and unjustified labels.

This is exactly why the state multicultural attitude has to die and face up to the real world.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Radical Muslims are the only ones demanding these blasphemy laws. Not just in the EU, but they were demanded in the UN as well. Geert Wilders is an EU example of someone being subject to blasphemy charges.



Then we shouldn't be generalizing all Muslims as the same. I feel ashamed for generalizing as I did earlier.




> How can a country that claims to respect women, allow those women to live Afghanistan style lives in the capital of the country? There are British Muslim organisations working to help these women that are forced to wear burkas and live second class citizen lives when they don't have to. But the government refuses to do anything about it themselves, because their attitude towards multiculturalism is so outdated and flawed it may be regarded as "disrespectful" towards that culture to... you know... force others to treat women with equal rights in OUR country.



There was a story in the news where an Afghan woman was put in prison because she was the victim of rape. However there was such a storm made by the media that Afghan authorities released her. How fucked up is that? being arrested and put in prison because you're a victim? That isn't respecting the woman.



> People like you are part of the problem. Because rather than recognise there is a problem, you accused anyone suggesting there is one of being an xenophobe. No one wants to be considered a racist, so they stay quite and let things stay shit like they are, all because other people were scared to look the other way because of ill placed and unjustified labels.



I will swear on my own life I am not a Xenophobe nor racist. I like meeting people from other countries, I like talking to them I like learning about different cultures, but I admit that sometimes I get blinded by what the media says.


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## Kellie Gator (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Radical Muslims are the only ones demanding these blasphemy laws. Not just in the EU, but they were demanded in the UN as well. Geert Wilders is an EU example of someone being subject to blasphemy charges.


You always talk about demanding this and demanding that. How many of these laws have actually passed?



ADF said:


> Then we look at the real world and Muslim honour killing is a problem in the UK.
> 
> That you talk about it not being in the Koran is suggesting my problem is with the religion itself. This is a cultural problem that has been imported into the UK.


This is stupid to even bring up because plenty of people get killed without muslim ideologies being involved. Murder is murder so saying one specific form of murder is a problem just comes across as desperate.



ADF said:


> Too many people are so terrified of being accused of being racist that they refuse to recognise the problems; and that's why they get out of hand.
> 
> How can a country that claims to respect women, allow those women to live Afghanistan style lives in the capital of the country? There are British Muslim organisations working to help these women that are forced to wear burkas and live second class citizen lives when they don't have to. But the government refuses to do anything about it themselves, because their attitude towards multiculturalism is so outdated and flawed it may be regarded as "disrespectful" towards that culture to... you know... force others to treat women with equal rights in OUR country.
> 
> ...


The thing is, the problems you've brought up are either mythical or things that already existed without Islam so therefor it's not worthy of mention.

Also, anything regarding the burkha is a poor argument because like I mentioned before there are women who wear them because they WANT to and enforcing laws on clothes is pretty fascist and as far as I know there's no laws to "prevent oppression" on any other form of garment. Anyone who forces someone else into wearing something or take away a person's rights should be punished, though.


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## Archon (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> I think I'd look like a fanatic if I were able to give every example over my lifetime. I'm sorry that I don't keep a detailed diary every time these issues are brought up in the news.
> 
> The fact that EU wide blasphemy laws are a ongoing issue, which would make every citizen of a member state subject to criminalization for offending a Muslim for god knows whatever reason, is reason enough for concern. Because no other group are demanding criminal charges for religious offence than this fanatical minority.
> 
> ...


Even if we aren't all created equal, we can learn to accept each other. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, so no one is really better than anyone else in the end. Of course, some beliefs need to be eliminated for the greater good, which are the ones that cause harm to others. So I understand ADF's reasoning. We can still keep the positive aspects of a culture. But some things just are not good for humanity in general, to help it progress away from its self-destructive nature.

I'm not generalizing, I judge a person on an individual basis, based on their actions alone. But if we don't figure out a way to accept each other, without starting wars over stupid things. We'll destroy ourselves.

Like i've been saying, I have no problem with mixing cultures and such. Just don't use it as an excuse to kill people.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Then we shouldn't be generalizing all Muslims as the same. I feel ashamed for generalizing as I did earlier.



I've been referring to a radical minority throughout this thread. But that's inconvenient when you want to demonize someone, so people keep trying to suggest I'm painting the entire Muslim population a certain way. That way it's easier to pull out their own generalizing brush and just paint "xenophobe, ignore" on the entire thing...



Randy-Darkshade said:


> There was a story in the news where an Afghan woman was put in prison because she was the victim of rape. However there was such a storm made by the media that Afghan authorities released her. How fucked up is that? being arrested and put in prison because you're a victim? That isn't respecting the woman.



Careful now. We're supposed to think all cultures are equal and anyone who says otherwise is an xenophobe.

It's a integral part of state multiculturalism to look the other way when aspects of a foreign cultures value system is incompatible with your own. Because despite preaching diversity, state multiculturalism is incapable of handling incompatibilities between cultures, it just pretends they don't exist and accuses anyone who notices them as being a racist.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> I will swear on my own life I am not a Xenophobe nor racist. I like meeting people from other countries, I like talking to them I like learning about different cultures, but I admit that sometimes I get blinded by what the media says.



Real Xenophobia are the likes of the BNP and EDL. No one wants to be associated with groups like that, so association with them is used as a deterrent to make people submit to your way of thinking.

As I showed with the Nick Glegg example, too many people in authority use the fear of the Xenophobe label to scare people into going along with their way of thinking. You're either with them or with the racists. It's a tactic that is not unique to the Eurozone, in the US the "liberals/communists" are the dirty words. Everyone finds their negative label and attaches it to anyone who doesn't think like them.


----------



## Kellie Gator (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Archon said:


> Even if we aren't all equal, we can learn to eventually accept each other. Of course, some beliefs need to be eliminated for the greater good. So I understand ADF's reasoning. We can still keep the positive aspects of a culture. But some things just are not good for humanity in general.


Please tell me I'm not the only one who's completely lost here. Equality means that everyone has the same rights and obligations regardless of who you are, which means we can't be equal WITHOUT accepting other ideologies.

Also, why do you people keep insisting that a democratic society like the one we live in is going to suddenly implement a bunch of sharia laws and that everyone's gonna honor kill each other left and right on the streets while their wives are beaten up by the morality police?

The paranoia is going through the roof with you guys.


----------



## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> You always talk about demanding this and demanding that. How many of these laws have actually passed?



Blasphemy is already a criminal offence in the EU. It has been since 2007 when "Recommendation 1805" was implemented. I have already given a famous example of a blasphemy case with Geert Wilders. 

The problem is what constitutes blasphemy is very vague and could be regarded as freedom of speech/satire by most of us.



Kellie Gator said:


> This is stupid to even bring up because plenty of people get killed without muslim ideologies being involved. Murder is murder so saying one specific form of murder is a problem just comes across as desperate.



Murder occurs, therefore honour killing is a none issue? I do not accept that in the least. You say I'm being desperate bringing that up, but you equating it as any other murder is desperate my own measurement. Talk about downplaying the issue.

This is not a ignorable matter.



Kellie Gator said:


> The thing is, the problems you've brought up are either mythical or things that already existed without Islam so therefor it's not worthy of mention.
> 
> Also, anything regarding the burkha is a poor argument because like I mentioned before there are women who wear them because they WANT to and enforcing laws on clothes is pretty fascist and as far as I know there's no laws to "prevent oppression" on any other form of garment. Anyone who forces someone else into wearing something or take away a person's rights should be punished, though.



You're simply shrugging off every problem as either a myth or none issue. Is it any wonder I said you are part of the problem? How is any of these supposed to be resolved if people like you deny they exist and throw the label xenophobe around for just talking about them?


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Oh but I forget, silly me, people here only read what they WANT to read.


Don't you know minorities can do no wrong? You *monster*


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

This is more interesting to sit back and watch then it is to take part in this.

Imo, if they wanna live here, they live by our laws, and such killings are classed as murder here. They may get away with it back in their home land but not here. If I went to live in say, America, I'd be expected to obey US laws, would I not?


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## Attaman (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> I've been referring to a radical minority throughout this thread.


Oh, good, than you'll be perfectly content to show where you said you were referring only to the radical minority? Before pages 4 or 5 (which would not be "throughout the thread")? Because in your first post, I only saw


ADF said:


> It's this multiculturalism disease that has infected European countries.
> 
> The idea is the best way to show the most tolerance and respect is to bend over backwards to accommodate others, even if that means butchering your own culture and values system. So there is little reason to integrate when the locals are all too willing to accommodate everything you want, through fear of looking racist and bigoted if they do not.


In response to


CannonFodder said:


> This has been bugging me, but here in a the usa most muslim americans assimilate culturally to the point you don't know many people's religious beliefs until asked. So anyway, from what I've heard in like England and France and other countries they don't to the point that there's been riots in France. For someone that lives in a country that they don't what causes this? Honestly I don't know too much about what is going on in France culturally too much, but that's my fault.


Which at no point or time mentions radicals. Hell, "radical" is not even used by you until page four, post #90, wherein you state


ADF said:


> It's dangerous because there are some otherwise sane countries considering anti blasphemy laws in an effort to appease the most radical segment of their Muslim immigrants, oppressing everyone with draconian and subjective laws to appease one small group that will never be satisfied. But state multiculturalism being what it is, it's going to keep offering accommodations in the hope they will eventually come round...
> 
> State multiculturalism does not differentiate between genuine community leaders and loud fanatics. Enabling a small group of radicals to get their way under the assumption they represent that community.


Which shows that either you have a beef with Islam in particular (since you are focusing on Islam here as the cause, wherein your first post you don't point out anyone), or you are posting something unrelated to the thread ("Why do Muslims not Assimilate", but using an argument that is not related to Muslims but immigrants in general). And, again, you have yet to provide any examples of such laws being passed that blatantly favor Muslims over all other religious or racial (as certain users were referring to Muslims) demographics.



ADF said:


> But that's inconvenient when you want to demonize someone,


 Funny, as the first people to begin demonizing were you, me (in "Media response"), and Randy (with Ashley soon afterwards), two of the three being demonizations and the Government and Multi-Culturalistic policy and one being a sarcastic jab before giving an earnest answer (you can likely count Ashley's as an earnest answer as well, considering the exact complaint he used was repeated almost word-for-word in a serious manner by Randy).



ADF said:


> so people keep trying to suggest I'm painting the entire Muslim population a certain way. That way it's easier to pull out their own generalizing brush and just paint "xenophobe, ignore" on the entire thing...


 Hey, here's a tip: Look through the thread. Look at who painted Muslims a certain way. Now look at whose argument they're giving. Hint: It's the person who's saying the Swarthy Foreigner Accented Mooslems are taking people's jobs.



ADF said:


> It's a integral part of state multiculturalism to look the other way when aspects of a foreign cultures value system is incompatible with your own. Because despite preaching diversity, state multiculturalism is incapable of handling incompatibilities between cultures, it just pretends they don't exist and accuses anyone who notices them as being a racist.


 Funny thing: There is no "inherent" incompatibility between Muslim culture and Christian culture, other than Halal and that one believes Jesus to be the Son of God and the other a Prophet. That's about it. Assuming that there is some sort of inherent barrier barring unity between Muslims and Christians (or, heck, Western Society in general) is very, _very_ suspect.



ADF said:


> As I showed with the Nick Glegg example, too many people in authority use the fear of the Xenophobe label to scare people into going along with their way of thinking. You're either with them or with the racists. It's a tactic that is not unique to the Eurozone, in the US the "liberals/communists" are the dirty words. Everyone finds their negative label and attaches it to anyone who doesn't think like them.


Actually, the dirtiest of dirty words in the US is "Atheist", with something like 47% of the population mistrustful to proclaimed atheists. Not that Muslims (and, by association since all not-Christian / Jews look alike to the US Media, Sikhs) are much better off. And it's a bit telling that you're using an example of media brainwashing (Liberals bad) when trying to counter that there's media brainwash in regard to Muslims in Europe.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Before this gets locked can we rerail it?  Or atleast everybody get some coffee, chill out for five minutes or do I need to light some incense?  Maybe some candles?


Why is it that countries like belgium they integrate culturally though?  I can understand now why they don't want to integrate in some countries, but maybe just maybe if everybody chilled out about other people's religious beliefs there wouldn't be so many problems in the world.


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## Archon (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> This is more interesting to sit back and watch then it is to take part in this.
> 
> Imo, if they wanna live here, they live by our laws, and such killings are classed as murder here. They may get away with it back in their home land but not here. If I went to live in say, America, I'd be expected to obey US laws, would I not?


Agreed, but it would still be nice if everyone could accept each other, without the bad aspects of certain things. Sadly, my own view on acceptance is kind of a paradox, and is more of a message to just conform, for the sake of preserving the planet. Basically, i'm cool with a culture whenever it isn't used to degrade or hurt someone. But we live in a world where that isn't going to happen soon.

That is what I was trying to say with my first post in this thread.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> maybe just maybe if everybody chilled out about other people's religious beliefs there wouldn't be so many problems in the world.


...except for problems caused or worsened by religious beliefs. And there are plenty of them!


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kit H. Ruppell said:


> ...except for problems caused or worsened by religious beliefs. And there are plenty of them!


Here we go again.


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## Torrijos-sama (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Maintaining cultural traditions is entirely a reaction to intollerance.

France and Spain have never had good relations with the muslim world, and, as such, there is a larger push within the immigrant community to maintain different cultural beliefs (especially the visual, open ones). Same thing occurs in the Middle East, with Jewish, Druze, or christian communities (Armenians and Greeks intentionally crossing themselves and setting up large churches in Turkey and Syria, and whatnot).

Also, think of Native American cultural events, and Gay Villages flying large rainbow flags in communities that are "intollerant".


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> Before this gets locked can we rerail it?  Or atleast everybody get some coffee, chill out for five minutes or do I need to light some incense?  Maybe some candles?
> 
> 
> Why is it that countries like belgium they integrate culturally though?  I can understand now why they don't want to integrate in some countries, but maybe just maybe if everybody chilled out about other people's religious beliefs there wouldn't be so many problems in the world.



Because each country is different. Simple.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Randy-Darkshade said:


> Because each country is different. Simple.


Well obviously, but what are the differences?


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## Runefox (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

I really don't like to respond to these kinds of thing much anymore, but this really bugs me:


Randy-Darkshade said:


> Hence why we are supposed to say "Happy holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas" Fuck.....that. This is my country and I was bought up to say Happy christmas and in my own country that is what I will bloody well call it. I remember in the news some time ago where a school stopped putting the cross on hot cross buns in case it "offended" their Muslim students. First off the cross on a hot cross bun looks nothing like a fucking crucifix it looks very much like this +, secondly we should be able to show our own religious beliefs, especially in our own country. If those Muslims don't like our religions and our culture then they know where the fucking airports are.



Religion != culture. Muslims and Christians alike are not a part of singular cultures or societies. Just because someone is living within the borders of a certain state does not necessitate their conversion to whatever religion is on the menu for the day unless it happens to be Vatican City. Does this not work the other way? If you moved to Saudi Arabia, would you stop being Christian because the state embraces Islam and officially recognizes no other? If you were to move back and forth between Northern Ireland and the Republic, would you constantly convert between Protestant and Catholic because of the demographics there?

No. You'd probably say exactly what you're saying now: "Fuck.....that."

Most of the world has adopted the policy of separation of church and state. Hell, according to this map (Red = separation of church and state, yellow = state-official religion, grey = no data / ambiguous), the UK has no official stance one way or another (as it has no written constitution saying so). If you want to get technical about it, the monarchy is exclusively Protestant (hence Northern Ireland's religious demographic).

Anyway all that aside, entirely agreed that you should be free to show your own religious beliefs either way. It's mainly in the interests of business and government to cater to everyone - Not you. It's a two-way street, something that hasn't exactly been respected in many aspects of society. In particular, Canadian QuÃ©bÃ©cois constantly get special treatment and yet still there are groups who wish to secede and have QuÃ©bec become its own sovereign state - But still have all the benefits of being a part of the Canadian federation, including defence and trade. In fact, such a motion was actually passed, though to what extent it makes any difference to anybody is unknown, especially considering the Bloc QuÃ©bÃ©cois continued to exist and be popular in QuÃ©bec until the most recent 2011 federal elections, where their leader stepped down and urged QuÃ©bÃ©cois voters to vote NDP to an uncertain future. They even now continue on, albeit not as an official party due to their lack of sufficient parliamentary seats.

*ADF*: If every Christian were following the Bible properly, they'd also be stoning heathens and putting non-virgin wives to death. The difference in this case is that it is culturally acceptable in (unspecifiedistan / Iraq in that link) to do these things because the church there runs the state and is extremely fundamentalist. If our Western societies were still being run by the church as theirs are, we'd be in a similar situation. This isn't a problem of cultural assimilation, this is a problem of organized religion in general. Do remember the Crusades, when the church had so much sway over the kings of the world that Christian kings fought for the church for territory. Fortunately for us in the Western world, the worst we get are fundamental bible-thumpers telling us we're going to hell for (reasons a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z, a1, a2, a3...) rather than putting people to death.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> Well obviously, but what are the differences?



Maybe it has something to do with a countries culture? Each country has it's own culture and it's own ways to deal with things, that's what makes each country individual. The world would be a boring place if we were all the same.


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## Dreaming (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



JesusFish said:


> Maintaining cultural traditions is entirely a reaction to intollerance.
> 
> France and Spain have never had good relations with the muslim world, and, as such, there is a larger push within the immigrant community to maintain different cultural beliefs (especially the visual, open ones). Same thing occurs in the Middle East, with Jewish, Druze, or christian communities (Armenians and Greeks intentionally crossing themselves and setting up large churches in Turkey and Syria, and whatnot).
> 
> Also, think of Native American cultural events, and Gay Villages flying large rainbow flags in communities that are "intollerant".



Off-topic: I thought the Greek Orthodox/Christian population in Turkey was shrinking at a fast rate.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Attaman said:


> snip



*sigh* I'm not going to address each and every part of that this time of night.

Rough sum up.

People like you need "these fanatics" and "this minority" put in front of every reference to Muslims, because if you don't do it in EVERY reference; you ignore everything that has been said and declare generalization.

You've gone through my posts with a fine tooth comb for any excuse to declare generalizing bigot/racist, haven't you? It doesn't matter there are numerous examples throughout this thread of referring to a minority of fanatics within the Muslim population abusing the governments multiculturalism policy, you're intent on making me out to be a Islamaphobe for not tip toeing around the exact wording of everything said. You've honestly nit picked through every post I've made in a five page thread to pull out whatever you can to make a issue out of. That Afghan culture and fanatical Islam is the best example of multiculturalism problems in the UK, plus is in the topic title, clearly must mean me mentioning it is out of some personal vendetta for the religion... I'm Atheist, I don't like 'any' of the religions. But Christianity and Judaism fanatics aren't creating these issues in the UK.

You're acting like a stereotype of the people who perpetuate these problems. You focus more on attacking the character of the person mentioning these problems, trying your hardest to stamp the xenophobe label on so the public can be told to ignore this individual, than talking about the actual problems. Problems which some people seem intent on covering up like its some dirty inconvenient secret.

If you don't want to believe anything I am saying, fine. But digging through posts to this extent for anything that may possibly, potentially, may be interpreted as being racist is hardly productive.


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## Attaman (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> *sigh* I'm not going to address each and every part of that this time of night.
> 
> Rough sum up.
> 
> People like you need "these fanatics" and "this minority" put in front of every reference to Muslims, because if you don't do it in EVERY reference; you ignore everything that has been said and declare generalization.


 Look at Randy's earlier posts in this thread. You're trying to make it out like we're rattling a saber at a problem that doesn't exist. You have someone _from your same nation, who is not alone in their ideology, professing the same ideas you're claiming we're fabricating_. 



ADF said:


> You've gone through my posts with a fine tooth comb for any excuse to declare generalizing bigot/racist, haven't you?


 Have you seen me use the word "racist" once, in regard to you or Randy? I've supported claims that you / Randy are Xenophobic, but you'll notice that the people I call bigoted / racist directly are politicians (and, in France's case, with article support).

You're the one who started with attacks on character, is continuing to base their argument with attacks on character, and has failed to address the very first post you made in the thread (which is "What policies?").



ADF said:


> It doesn't matter there are numerous examples throughout this thread of referring to a minority of fanatics within the Muslim population abusing the governments multiculturalism policy,


 Link to one, that isn't Randy's anecdotal evidence based on not being able to "see" a Muslim.



ADF said:


> You've honestly nit picked through every post I've made in a five page thread to pull out whatever you can to make a issue out of.


 No, I haven't. You see, Ctrl+F is a lovely tool to see if someone said something online. 



ADF said:


> That Afghan culture and fanatical Islam


 That you think the two are synonymous is a complete, absolute _insult_ to Ahmad Shah Massoud, who was an Afghani who not only served his country but was a major political as well as Islamic figure.



ADF said:


> is the best example of multiculturalism problems in the UK, plus is in the topic title,


 Not quite, OP, and you'll notice that Ramsey (who acknowledged some of the problems as well) is not getting anywhere near as much flak, because of her choice in words (which, surprisingly, was actually important).



ADF said:


> clearly must mean me mentioning it is out of some personal vendetta for the religion... I'm Atheist, I don't like 'any' of the religions. But Christianity and Judaism fanatics aren't creating these issues in the UK.


 And Muslim Fanatics are being blown out of proportion in terms of importance / relevance to the local political scene, which is what Kellie has been repeatably stating.



ADF said:


> You're acting like a stereotype of the people who perpetuate these problems.


 Wait, so we joke that someone's going to come in here going "Swarthy Mooslems stealing our jobs", someone _does_ state such... and we're perpetuating a false stereotype?



ADF said:


> You focus more on attacking the character of the person mentioning these problems,


 You notice that I responded to Cannon in a serious fashion? That Smelge responded in a serious fashion? That the first Ad Hominem post was by _you_?



ADF said:


> trying your hardest to stamp the xenophobe label on so the public can be told to ignore this individual, than talking about the actual problems. Problems which some people seem intent on covering up like its some dirty inconvenient secret.


 Because it's really a minor problem to bait and switch people from stuff like Germany shafting Europe's economy via the Euro? Because, possibly, the problem is not Muslims in France being Muslims but France's reception of them?


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Attaman said:


> Look at Randy's earlier posts in this thread. You're trying to make it out like we're rattling a saber at a problem that doesn't exist. You have someone _from your same nation, who is not alone in their ideology, professing the same ideas you're claiming we're fabricating_.
> 
> Have you seen me use the word "racist" once, in regard to you or Randy? I've supported claims that you / Randy are Xenophobic, but you'll notice that the people I call bigoted / racist directly are politicians (and, in France's case, with article support).
> 
> ...



I have already admitted to generalizing Muslims way to much. I have also already admitted it was wrong of me to do so. But, just because a minority of them irk me it doesn't make me a Xenophobe. Nor does having a difference in opinion.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

For buggers sake... must you break the post into so many pieces? It's going to look like a mess responding to all this.



Attaman said:


> Look at Randy's earlier posts in this thread. You're trying to make it out like we're rattling a saber at a problem that doesn't exist. You have someone from your same nation, who is not alone in their ideology, professing the same ideas you're claiming we're fabricating.



You took issue with the wording of my posts, suggesting I was generalizing all Muslims, despite making references to minority groups in many of them. I fail to see the relevance of what Randy said when we are talking about the contents of my posts.



Attaman said:


> Have you seen me use the word "racist" once, in regard to you or Randy? *I've supported claims that you / Randy are Xenophobic*, but you'll notice that the people I call bigoted / racist directly are politicians (and, in France's case, with article support).



Xenophobia is bigotry towards anyone who is not like us, so you might as well be accusing me of racism in my mind. 



Attaman said:


> You're the one who started with attacks on character, is continuing to base their argument with attacks on character, and has failed to address the very first post you made in the thread (which is "What policies?").



If I had a detailed record of every news article, law and issue throughout my lifetime. Then sure, I could give you plenty of evidence. But given I am not a fanatic with a photographic memory, I cannot regurgitate information for the instant dismissal by others who have no interest in knowing any of it.

Anyone in Britain is aware of the issue of cultural and religious problems posed by Muslim immigrant fanatics that refuse to integrate. Pat Condell has dedicated a fair chunk of his channel to the problems that militant Islam has pose in this country. But given how quick people were to disregard the actual name and date of the blasphemy law implemented by the EU, even an example of a blasphemy court case, plus a recent article on the BBC talking about the problem posed by honour violence in the UK. What else can I say? 

Even if I could access all available information, if people don't want to believe there is a problem; then they're not going to let facts get in the way of that. As I've experienced, they're just discarded as myths or none issues, even if I reference a reliable source like the state run news provider of this country. I've mentioned all sorts of problems caused by state enforced multiculturalism in this thread, so that fact that you are talking to me like I've failed to say anything on the matter is only further evidence that you're not interested in anything I have to say. There will never be enough examples to convince you, even if I could access all of them. So why bother trying to convince you further? If you don't want to believe any of this, that's your business.



Attaman said:


> Link to one, that isn't Randy's anecdotal evidence based on not being able to "see" a Muslim.



Again, Randy has no relevance when we are talking about my posts. Plus link one? You're actually asking me to present evidence that I was referring to a group within a group, rather than the entire group? For buggers sake... First page, very first example of the people causing problems in my country, I say "the ones" and linked to an example of the ones I was referring to. Plus the MANY MANY TIMES I referred to fanatical groups rather than all immigrants in posts in this thread, that you are apparently unable to see for whatever reason.



Attaman said:


> That you think the two are synonymous is a complete, absolute insult to Ahmad Shah Massoud, who was an Afghani who not only served his country but was a major political as well as Islamic figure.



Should I even bother explaining that saying "X and Y cause problems" is not the same as saying "X and Y are synonymous"? Like how I can say "disease and hunger are problems" without saying disease and hunger are the same?

No. I don't think common sense has any place here. You're obviously intent on trying to interpret as much bad meaning from every word I write as possible.



Attaman said:


> And Muslim Fanatics are being blown out of proportion in terms of importance / relevance to the local political scene, which is what Kellie has been repeatably stating.



I don't recall stating the proportion of these problems, only that they are problems.



Attaman said:


> Wait, so we joke that someone's going to come in here going "Swarthy Mooslems stealing our jobs", someone does state such... and we're perpetuating a false stereotype?



I accused you of perpetuating a false stereotype? No, I accused you of following a stereotype.



Attaman said:


> You notice that I responded to Cannon in a serious fashion? That Smelge responded in a serious fashion? That the first Ad Hominem post was by you?



An Ad Hominem is trying to negate what someone is saying by attaching something negative to it, rather than addressing what they are actually saying. In other words, what a lot of you lot have been doing by trying to attach racism/xenophobia to people who don't support state multiculturalism. If I've inadvertently performed a Ad Hominem, I'm not clear on which post exactly. But I'm damn sure others have been at it for a great deal of this thread.



Attaman said:


> Because it's really a minor problem to bait and switch people from stuff like Germany shafting Europe's economy via the Euro? Because, possibly, the problem is not Muslims in France being Muslims but France's reception of them?



... Germany and France have nothing to do with what "I" have been talking about, because a large part of my responses have been about my own country and general EU laws. I don't see any means of "bait and switching" Germany's responsibility given the issues I've been discussing.

So to summarize. A great deal of the above wall has been focused on me, with very little to do with the actual arguments I was making, because the information provided earlier regarding these arguments has apparently been ignored. Chances are another quote wall is going to follow this one at some point, but if it is anything like this one; I don't see the point in spending so much time again.

This feels more like a time wasting wind up and a actual decent debate.


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## Torrijos-sama (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> Off-topic: I thought the Greek Orthodox/Christian population in Turkey was shrinking at a fast rate.


 
It doesn't stop them from flaunting their culture everywhere.


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## Mayfurr (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> If I had a detailed record of every news article, law and issue throughout my lifetime. Then sure, I could give you plenty of evidence. But given I am not a fanatic with a photographic memory, I cannot regurgitate information for the instant dismissal by others who have no interest in knowing any of it.



However, as you claim immigrant culture is (as you put it) _"constantly favoured"_ over British culture, one would think that it would be _easy_ to pick a _few _examples of this out to demonstrate your point. Because if it _was_ so pervasive, you wouldn't *need* to resort to "_a detailed record of every news article, law and issue throughout my lifetime_" as it would be happening to you _now_.

In fact, your claiming that you can hardly be expected to have "_a detailed record of every news article, law and issue throughout my lifetime_" on the subject suggests that the "problem" is hardly as pervasive as you make out if you have to struggle _that_ hard to remember.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Mayfurr said:


> However, as you claim immigrant culture is (as you put it) _"constantly favoured"_ over British culture, one would think that it would be _easy_ to pick a _few _examples of this out to demonstrate your point. Because if it _was_ so pervasive, you wouldn't *need* to resort to "_a detailed record of every news article, law and issue throughout my lifetime_" as it would be happening to you _now_.
> 
> In fact, your claiming that you can hardly be expected to have "_a detailed record of every news article, law and issue throughout my lifetime_" on the subject suggests that the "problem" is hardly as pervasive as you make out if you have to struggle _that_ hard to remember.



State multiculturalism intrinsically favours the culture of the immigrant over that of the local population; in an effort to show respect and tolerance towards it. If you want examples, you're better off looking at Pat Condell's YouTube channel that I linked, as it essentially contains records of such things. I suppose one example I can give is the fact that the entire country is now eating Halal meat, because the supermarkets refuse to label it and it's not cost effective to offer halal/none halal alternatives.

The problem is most of my concern these days is regarding the EU. I quite frankly consider it a far greater threat to my country than a bunch of fanatics screaming for Sharia on the streets of London. The EU in fact enables such behaviour, because its their laws that prevent us from chucking those people out of the country.

There was a incident a while back where a illegal Muslim immigrant performed a hit and run, killing a girl. However when we were about to kick him out the country, the EU ruled the man that killed someone's daughter had a *right to a family life in the UK* and couldn't be exported. However as a British citizen, if a European country wants me no questions asked, my government is forced to hand me over into possibly sub standard prison conditions.

So as you can imagine, the information I prioritize is far more regarding the EU than the nonsense state multiculturalism gets up to.


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## Onnes (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> State multiculturalism intrinsically favours the culture of the immigrant over that of the local population; in an effort to show respect and tolerance towards it. If you want examples, you're better off looking at Pat Condell's YouTube channel that I linked, as it essentially contains records of such things. I suppose one example I can give is the fact that the entire country is now eating Halal meat, because the supermarkets refuse to label it and it's not cost effective to offer halal/none halal alternatives.



You're citing some dude's YouTube channel. Don't you realize yet how silly that looks? No one gives a shit what some bigot with a YouTube channel thinks--especially a dude so obviously batshit crazy as Condell, if he were any more of an Islamophobe he'd Godwin himself; the only thing lower on the information ladder would be referring back to your own YouTube rants. You want to cite systematic reviews, government policies, and statements from government officials and their political platforms if you are trying to establish the existence of a state program favoring immigrants, although looking at Condell's verbal garbage it is apparent this is specifically about Muslims and not immigrants in general.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Onnes said:


> You're citing some dude's YouTube channel. Don't you realize yet how silly that looks?



This again? Didn't you go on a rant about referencing videos in another thread somewhere, or am I thinking of someone else?

Regardless. Whatever you think of Condell for having a vocal opinion on Islam, it is as I described. A time line of events of issues caused by favouritism towards Muslim immigrants culture over the local one. I might as well reference it because people gave fuck all attention to actual government figures and legal information when I posted about that.


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## Bliss (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> The fact that EU wide blasphemy laws are a ongoing issue, which would make every citizen of a member state subject to criminalization for offending a Muslim for god knows whatever reason, is reason enough for concern. Because no other group are demanding criminal charges for religious offence than this fanatical minority.


Ironic how Council of Europe explicitly mandated that blasphemy should not be a crime...



ADF said:


> The problem is most of my concern these days is regarding the EU. I quite frankly consider it a far greater threat to my country than a bunch of fanatics screaming for Sharia on the streets of London. The EU in fact enables such behaviour, because its their laws that prevent us from chucking those people out of the country.


By what right do you have the authority to "chuck people out of the country" because they exercise their political rights your own country ensures - and every fair and free country should ensure - for everyone? 



> There was a incident a while back where a illegal Muslim immigrant performed a hit and run, killing a girl. However when we were about to kick him out the country, the EU ruled the man that killed someone's daughter had a *right to a family life in the UK* and couldn't be exported. However as a British citizen, if a European country wants me no questions asked, my government is forced to hand me over into possibly sub standard prison conditions.


*Source*, if you please at last. I'd hate to be a humane pragmatist _apologetic_ without any actual information in my use.

Then again I do believe that it is wrong to ship a person across the world when their nuclear family remains, no question what their crimes might have been.


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## Onnes (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> This again? Didn't you go on a rant about referencing videos in another thread somewhere, or am I thinking of someone else?
> 
> Regardless. Whatever you think of Condell for having a vocal opinion on Islam, it is as I described. A time line of events of issues caused by favouritism towards Muslim immigrants culture over the local one. I might as well reference it because people gave fuck all attention to actual government figures and legal information when I posted about that.



Does the UK even have an equivalent of FOX News? If they did, even that would be a more valid source than the random YouTube bigot. Good lord man, that you would even link off to a channel containing such vitriolic hatred forces my opinion of you down to the gutters. Maybe Condell lays out a systemic and coherent argument somewhere special and hidden in there, but his entire theme seems to be a series of anecdotes designed to inspire feelings of animosity towards Muslims in general regardless of any context.


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## ADF (Dec 29, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Lizzie said:


> Ironic how EU explicitly mandated that blasphemy should not be a crime...



I don't expect others to simply go with what I say. Even when I reference statistical facts some of them just discard them. But just because they say it isn't meant to turn blasphemy into a crime, doesn't mean that isn't what it does. The EU has a history of causing the very things they are attempting to prevent. 



Lizzie said:


> By what right do you have the authority to "chuck people out of the country" because they exercise their political rights your own country ensures - and every fair and free country should ensure - for everyone?



When they say they want us dead and our women as war booty?

There are several nutters in the UK that the government would love to deport. But EU rules on deporting people to countries where they may be neglected has essentially created a loophole to stay here.

At least until the government goes through the necessary bureaucracy to be able to legally get rid of them, which can take ages. They have to be a considerable concern to make it worth it.



Lizzie said:


> Source, if you please at last. I'd hate to be a humane pragmatist apologetic with any actual information in my use.
> 
> Then again I do believe that it is wrong to ship a person across the world when their nuclear family remains, no question what their crimes might have been.



This guy.



Onnes said:


> Does the UK even have an equivalent of FOX News? If they did, even that would be a more valid source than the random YouTube bigot. Good lord man, that you would even link off to a channel containing such vitriolic hatred forces my opinion of you down to the gutters. Maybe Condell lays out a systemic and coherent argument somewhere special and hidden in there, but his entire theme seems to be a series of anecdotes designed to inspire feelings of animosity towards Muslims in general regardless of any context.



Because we left in a position of mutual respect in that last thread?

I linked to a BBC article listing the specific official figures on honour based Muslim violence in the UK and it was simply discarded as "a myth" or downplayed in significance. Oh it was only nearly 3000 related cases last year, crime happens all the time; so what does that matter? 

The legitimacy of a source in this thread has proved to be totally irrelevant, so why should I care what people think of what I link to in this thread? They're going to believe what they want regardless of the validity of the source, so might as well have some fun with it. Condell can be fun to listen to from time to time.


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## Onnes (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> I linked to a BBC article listing the specific official figures on honour based Muslim violence in the UK and it was simply discarded as "a myth" or downplayed in significance. Oh it was only nearly 3000 related cases last year, crime happens all the time; so what does that matter?



Funny thing, the BBC article is quite careful not to associate the honour attacks solely with Muslims. It also provides no context as to how those statistics compare to crime as a whole and particularly across different sociodemographic groups. For all that article says, Muslims could be far less violent than other groups; it talks about a single kind of violent crime and makes no attempt to put it into a broader context. You are trying to imply that Muslims are more violent, if they were equally or less then no one would care, compared to some ideal group (white Judeo-Christians and atheists, I dunno) and you cite an article that provides absolutely no evidence to the effect. It does, however, reference a relatively new or scarcely known kind of crime that scares people into needless bigotry. It also provides no evidence that honour attacks are less harshly prosecuted than other attacks, so you can't get any sort of favoritism angle out of it.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Onnes said:


> Funny thing, the BBC article is quite careful not to associate the honour attacks solely with Muslims. It also provides no context as to how those statistics compare to crime as a whole and particularly across different sociodemographic groups. For all that article says, Muslims could be far less violent than other groups; it talks about a single kind of violent crime and makes no attempt to put it into a broader context. You are trying to imply that Muslims are more violent, if they were equally or less then no one would care, compared to some ideal group (white Judeo-Christians and atheists, I dunno) and you cite an article that provides absolutely no evidence to the effect. It does, however, reference a relatively new or scarcely known kind of crime that scares people into needless bigotry. It also provides no evidence that honour attacks are less harshly prosecuted than other attacks, so you can't get any sort of favoritism angle out of it.



So to sum up. You're denying that these honour attacks are a cultural import from Muslim countries, because despite it not existing in British culture; recognising such a reality may be regarded as racist right? You're downplaying the significance of a rise in these honour attacks, because other crimes exist and that somehow negates it as a issue. You've accused me of saying Muslims are more violent, when I've made no mention of that; but oh well suggesting I did helps make me look bad. Then you talk as if I've claimed honour attacks are less harshly prosecuted, so you can make it sound like you refuted that claim I never made. 

Great... Well I've had enough of this for one night, I'm having a little browse then going off to bed.


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## chapels (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

why do countrymen in europe not assimilate culturally whereas in other countries we do


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> So to sum up. You're denying that these honour attacks are a cultural import from Muslim countries, because despite it not existing in British culture; recognising such a reality may be regarded as racist right? You're downplaying the significance of a rise in these honour attacks, because other crimes exist and that somehow negates it as a issue. You've accused me of saying Muslims are more violent, when I've made no mention of that; but oh well suggesting I did helps make me look bad. Then you talk as if I've claimed honour attacks are less harshly prosecuted, so you can make it sound like you refuted that claim I never made.
> 
> Great... Well I've had enough of this for one night, I'm having a little browse then going off to bed.


We don't have honour attacks here, hell I had to even look it up to know what you are talking about.


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## AshleyAshes (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> So to sum up. You're denying that these honour attacks are a cultural import from Muslim countries, because despite it not existing in British culture; recognising such a reality may be regarded as racist right? You're downplaying the significance of a rise in these honour attacks, because other crimes exist and that somehow negates it as a issue.



It's because 'honor killings' exist in all cultures just under different names.  Simply put, killing someone 'to save face' regretfully happens all the time.  People get killed for marrying interacially or marrying people of different relegions, people get killed for wanting a divorce and the other person won't bare to live with that.  Same for revealing that they're homosexual or countless other things.  To say that 'Honor Killings' are uniquely muslim and a muslim import is naive.  The only part that is unique to Muslim cultures is the use of the title 'Honor' for their motivations.


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## Kellie Gator (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> Before this gets locked can we rerail it?  Or atleast everybody get some coffee, chill out for five minutes or do I need to light some incense?  Maybe some candles?


Sorry for being stubborn but I don't see how we're derailing the thread since we're still talking about integration of Islam into western culture and we still haven't resorted to a full-on flame war. Correct me if I'm wrong, tho.



Kit H. Ruppell said:


> ...except for problems caused or worsened by religious beliefs. And there are plenty of them!


All the things that people do in the name of religion would still exist without religion, wise guy. Without Islam there would still be murder, sexism, rape, terrorism, and everything else you can imagine.


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## Neonagon (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

If a Muslim were fully integrated into a culture, then I suppose you wouldn't notice they were Muslim and would instead assume they are whatever culture. So you would only really notice the people who really stick out.

I don't see why people are so concerned about it. 

Like the above poster said, people are always finding reasons to do terrible things. If it wasn't in the name of religion, it would be in the name of something else. Religion is not inherently bad. It's a rather brilliant way to control and create order in populations really.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> It's because 'honor killings' exist in all cultures just under different names.



No it does not, and you're essentially trying to defend this sort of behaviour by suggesting it is wide spread through British culture; instead of being an isolated import.

Anyone from Britain can tell you that honour crimes are a cultural import from Muslim/Asian countries and does not exist in British culture itself. I suppose if you live outside the UK that appears racist, but it's the case here. If you think otherwise, feel free to find one of British on British honour violence. The UK government makes a point not to make any mention of the ethnic groups/cultures that this occurs in because of the self enforced blindness of state multiculturism.

That American's in here have said the haven't even heard of honour killing, suggests we're getting a different type of immigration than them. If they aren't seeing this sort of behaviour in their country, we're attracting a different culture of Islam. Which wouldn't be too surprising, given that there are different sub groups in most religions.

Quite frankly I'd much rather move on to something else now.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Neonagon said:


> I don't see why people are so concerned about it.



One possible reason might be that some people have the mentality that "This is my country, no one else is allowed here!" Or maybe some people are scared of those who are different to them, or not what they would consider "Normal".



ADF said:


> No it does not, and you're essentially trying to  defend this sort of behaviour by suggesting it is wide spread through  British culture; instead of being an isolated import.
> 
> Anyone from Britain can tell you that honour crimes are a cultural  import from Muslim/Asian countries and does not exist in British culture  itself. I suppose if you live outside the UK that appears racist, but  it's the case here. If you think otherwise, feel free to find one  of British on British honour violence. The UK government makes a point  not to make any mention of the ethnic groups/cultures that this occurs  in because of the self enforced blindness of state multiculturism.
> 
> ...



Indeed. Any country has murders. But not honor killings.


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## Runefox (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

ADF: The countries these people come from enforce this behaviour because the church runs the state. It's a different case in the Western world, where separation of church and state has been around for some time. Were a fundamentalist Christian country to enforce a similar style of governing, you would see similar "honour" crimes and a lot more Westboro Baptist Churches. This isn't a distinctly Muslim phenomenon, but it IS a phenomenon derived from church-run states, and something that needs to be corrected, though how is another story entirely. Quite frankly, this kind of problem is absolutely an issue of organized religion in general, and not simply a thing you can just pin on Islam in general. It DOES become an issue of prejudice when you look at these things and blame Islam, in the same light that an American who blames Islam for 9/11 is also being prejudiced.

In the end, the issue of "honor killings" and similar issues fall under the umbrella of human rights. While everyone has rights to freedom in terms of religion according to the UN Universal Declaration of Rights, it's also true that everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person. In a state that fully embraces this ideal such as the United Kingdom, these kinds of retaliations are absolutely outside the bounds of this declaration, and any sane government's laws. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, and immigrants are expected to know, follow and respect it. The problem in this case isn't that Muslims are inherently violent, or inherently disregard the law in the name of their religious traditions, but that these people in particular (an earlier link pointed out that they were Iraqi) have lived their lives in an environment where this is commonplace, where this is the law. To take it in a completely different direction, the example of unifying North Korea and South Korea would place two distinctly different cultures with wildly different legal systems directly into each other's hands. To that extent, it is thought as fact in North Korea that Kim Il-Sung created the world, and that Kim Jong-Il controlled the weather via his emotions. To be brought directly from such a bubble into a world where this is absolutely not the case would most likely result in the same kind of culture shock that Britain is apparently experiencing here.

So what's to be done about all that, then? Quite frankly, I'd start by toppling each and every government run by a church and launch extensive re-education programmes. But that's because I'm an unapologetic heretic.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

After reading all this, I have come to a conclusion-
The usa isn't so crappy after all.


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## Bambi (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

@Thread: Burqa bans worry me.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Bambi said:


> @Thread: Burqa bans worry me.



Care to elaborate? Because burkas are not part of the Muslim religion, they exist solely to subjugate women in the same sort of countries that criminalize women for 'being' raped.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Care to elaborate? Because burkas are not part of the Muslim religion, they exist solely to subjugate women in the same sort of countries that criminalize women for 'being' raped.


If nobody is forcing them, then who cares?
If their dad/mom/husband/etc is telling them they have to then it's not right, but if the woman isn't than that's their business.


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## Bambi (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Care to elaborate? Because burkas are not part of the Muslim religion, they exist solely to subjugate women in the same sort of countries that criminalize women for 'being' raped.


Sure.

Because Muslims don't scare me.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> If nobody is forcing them, then who cares?
> If their dad/mom/husband/etc is telling them they have to then it's not right, but if the woman isn't than that's their business.



Whether or not someone is being forced is very difficult to clarify when it comes to religion. 

My mum likes to watch those silly shows where they send spoiled kids to strict family's to try and sort them out. In this one they were sent to a family where the women were the stereotypical Christian housewife, and there were several scenes were the women themselves talked about God creating them to serve at the feet of men. That it's the women's place to be in the kitchen and to serve her man.

Now did they choose that life or are they a victim of their religious and cultural upbringing?

I do not believe the vast majority of the women who wear burkas would choose to if it wasn't for their upbringing to believe they're a second class human that has to conceal their body for the sole enjoyment of their husband.


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## Tycho (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Care to elaborate? Because burkas are not part of the Muslim religion, they exist solely to subjugate women in the same sort of countries that criminalize women for 'being' raped.



For once he's right.  Burqas are a cultural thing, not a Muslim thing.  Headscarves are a cultural thing, not a Muslim thing.  The only reason the headscarf is considered so ubiquitously Muslim is because the country in which headscarves (and other more extensive cover-up garments) are popular happens to hold the top 2 most important places in the Muslim religion: Mecca and Medina.  The country is Saudi Arabia.  Because they hold Mecca and Medina the Saudis can and do portray themselves as the archetypal Muslims, the "correct" Muslims.  IIRC it has been stated that the Koran contains NO hard-and-fast dress code, and women like Fatima did not wear shrouds.


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## Ad Hoc (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Whether or not someone is being forced is very difficult to clarify when it comes to religion.
> 
> My mum likes to watch those silly shows where they send spoiled kids to strict family's to try and sort them out. In this one they were sent to a family where the women were the stereotypical Christian housewife, and there were several scenes were the women themselves talked about God creating them to serve at the feet of men. That it's the women's place to be in the kitchen and to serve her man.
> 
> ...


Banning burqas will not eliminate that kind of cultural brainwashing, elsewise those Christian ladies you cited wouldn't exist as they do. All that can be done is to give them legal routes to escape that kind of chauvinism if they wish to. Those routes are already available in much of the West. 

If burqas are to be banned, it must be because of mask laws.


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## Bambi (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

See, I just don't agree with that kind of logic -- the logic that, because a country like Saudi Arabia uses the Burqa to oppress women, we shouldn't allow people to wear it, manufacture it, or import it, here in the west, lest we ... what, give in, become our enemy, let the terrorists win? 

What reasons exist to ban the burqa are probably best applied to the countries where they're most commonly used to oppress women, not places like the United States, or the United Kingdom, or Canada, where people can freely choose of their own volition whether or not they'd like to wear one.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

I think it's the mentality of to defeat our enemies we must become like them to justify the burqa ban.  Then again that sort of mentality has been used so many times in the past that it's no surprise.


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## Onnes (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Tycho said:


> For once he's right.  Burqas are a cultural thing, not a Muslim thing.  Headscarves are a cultural thing, not a Muslim thing.  The only reason the headscarf is considered so ubiquitously Muslim is because the country in which headscarves (and other more extensive cover-up garments) are popular happens to hold the top 2 most important places in the Muslim religion: Mecca and Medina.  The country is Saudi Arabia.  Because they hold Mecca and Medina the Saudis can and do portray themselves as the archetypal Muslims, the "correct" Muslims.  IIRC it has been stated that the Koran contains NO hard-and-fast dress code, and women like Fatima did not wear shrouds.



This isn't Catholicism and you aren't the Pope. There is no authority here with which to claim that those religious views resulting in headscarves and burqas are somehow incorrect. If you were to question the individuals and their families who wear these garments, they would absolutely claim that it was a religious necessity. 

Look at this another way: most religious customs stem from far older cultural traditions. Do we really want to go through every Jewish law and Christian belief and attempt to separate them out as either religious or cultural in origin? What matters is that the believers themselves see these customs as part of their religion.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Tolerance of the Burka is tolerance of intolerance, it's part of what I don't like about state multiculturism.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Tolerance of the Burka is tolerance of intolerance, it's part of what I don't like about state multiculturism.


You're proposing fighting fire with fire though.  In middle east countries the burqa is state enforced, if you make a burqa ban state enforced what makes you different?  Not all countries with a state enforced burqa law sees the violators killed, some just prison time and/or fines; if you support a state enforced burqa-ban law that sees violators in prison and/or fines that makes you no better.


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## Bambi (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Tolerance of the Burka is tolerance of intolerance, it's part of what I don't like about state multiculturism.


You know, you're absolutely right ADF.

Your heart is in the right place and your mind is too, but be very careful what you claim to be a simple matter of flawed state multiculturalism, when instead, individual autonomy need apply.


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## Dreaming (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Tolerance of the Burka is tolerance of intolerance, it's part of what I don't like about state multiculturism.


They're not always a sign of intolerance particularly in the West. They're more of a cultural thing than anything.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> You're proposing fighting fire with fire though.  In middle east countries the burqa is state enforced, if you make a burqa ban state enforced what makes you different?  Not all countries with a state enforced burqa law sees the violators killed, some just prison time and/or fines; if you support a state enforced burqa-ban law that sees violators in prison and/or fines that makes you no better.



There are many things from those countries that we do have a ban on, like hate crimes against homosexuals. Why should we tolerate bigotry in our own boarders?


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AmerÃ­kumaÃ°urÃšlfur said:


> They're not always a sign of intolerance particularly in the West. They're more of a cultural thing than anything.



The head scarf maybe, but the Burka only serves one purpose. I remember one of their priests suggesting making a single eye version, as two eyes posed a higher risk of forcing a poor man into raping her...


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> There are many things from those countries that we do have a ban on, like hate crimes against homosexuals. Why should we tolerate bigotry in our own boarders?


So fight bigotry with even more bigotry?
...Is it just me or does this sound like history repeating itself?


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Commie Bat said:


> Flawless logic, right?


It's worked so well in the past hasn't it?


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## Bambi (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> There are many things from those countries that we do have a ban on, like hate crimes against homosexuals. Why should we tolerate bigotry in our own boarders?


Whose to say that we do tolerate bigotry?

Society might on some level, but I don't. I also know the difference between state sponsored bigotry and a personal phobia. Having a rational fear of fundamentalism is one thing. Having a rational fear of people being blinded by multiculturalism is another. Having a fear however of someone "choosing" to wear something ... that's relatively harmless when worn by choice, it's just ... well, I think that's a little unfair. More than unfair, it turns into an outright attack when fear manifests itself as irrational policy.


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## General-jwj (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

What we cruelly lack in this thread are Muslims. Especially Muslims that immigrated to another country. Then this'd be really interesting.


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## General-jwj (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Commie Bat said:


> *Irrelevant
> *If I remember correctly, wasn't there one who signed up and made in an intro, a while back.  He was called Cactus (something)



What do you mean irrelevant ? It's a thread about muslim immigrants, how can a muslim immigrant not have something even remotely thread-related to bring ?


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Bambi said:


> Whose to say that we do tolerate bigotry?
> 
> Society might on some level, but I don't. I also know the difference between state sponsored bigotry and a personal phobia. Having a rational fear of fundamentalism is one thing. Having a rational fear of people being blinded by multiculturalism is another. Having a fear however of someone "choosing" to wear something ... that's relatively harmless when worn by choice, it's just ... well, I think that's a little unfair. More than unfair, it turns into an outright attack when fear manifests itself as irrational policy.


I don't tolerate bigotry, that's the problem with adf's argument is that it says that you have to either tolerate or oppose the bigotry.  Just cause I oppose the forcing of women having to wear burqas doesn't mean that I'm hugging mass murders who kill women for not wearing burqas.


Commie Bat said:


> Completely.
> 
> There never was a hitch in the system till now.  Stupid progressive people, trying to be so accepting.... :V
> *note; I'm joking, for any who think I'm serious*


History repeats because of people knowing full well better and don't break the rhythm(metaphorically).


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## Tycho (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Commie Bat said:


> *Irrelevant
> *If I remember correctly, wasn't there one who signed up and made in an intro, a while back.  He was called Cactus (something)



There was a Japanese Muslim guy with the screen name Muawiyah Hirate who used to be around, a while back.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Bambi said:


> Whose to say that we do tolerate bigotry?
> 
> Society might on some level, but I don't. I also know the difference between state sponsored bigotry and a personal phobia. Having a rational fear of fundamentalism is one thing. Having a rational fear of people being blinded by multiculturalism is another. *Having a fear however of someone "choosing" to wear something ... that's relatively harmless when worn by choice, it's just ... well, I think that's a little unfair.* More than unfair, it turns into an outright attack when fear manifests itself as irrational policy.



Where have I expressed that I'm "fearful" of people choosing what they want to wear? I've made it clear my reasons for objecting to the Burka being worn in the UK, and none of those reasons have anything to do with harmless free will. 



CannonFodder said:


> I don't tolerate bigotry, that's the problem with adf's argument is that it says that you have to either tolerate or oppose the bigotry. *Just cause I oppose the forcing of women having to wear burqas doesn't mean that I'm hugging mass murders who kill women for not wearing burqas.*



You're suggesting I'm willing to tolerate 'any' evil, just so long as it isn't burka related. Feel free to point out where I made any comments to suggest I believe such an extreme exaggeration of my position.



Commie Bat said:


> Do happen to have any information on this; as it stands, I find that hard to believe .



We're talking about the fanatical side of religion here. Since when has it ever made any sense?

It's something I heard quite a while back. A quick search turns up only this.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> You're suggesting I'm willing to tolerate 'any' evil, just so long as it isn't burka related. Feel free to point out where I made any comments to suggest I believe such an extreme exaggeration of my position.


No I'm saying you're having the mentality of "us vs them".


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## Onnes (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Where have I expressed that I'm "fearful" of people choosing what they want to wear? I've made it clear my reasons for objecting to the Burka being worn in the UK, and none of those reasons have anything to do with harmless free will.



You want force a group of people to alter their religious views through legal changes. Do you really think a change in the law would trump religion, and that they would go outside uncovered and suddenly denounce their religion and become happy white atheists? That isn't how this works; they will stay indoors, in the family car, and risk violation of the law. Why the heck do you think that forcing these women to stay indoors will improve their quality of life? There is a large amount of naivete present in assuming that those of other cultures want the same things you do and that you can help them by rendering their customs illegal.




> We're talking about the fanatical side of religion here. Since when has it ever made any sense?
> 
> It's something I heard quite a while back. A quick search turns up only this.



That you would so fixate on a statement by a single ultra-conservative Saudi cleric says a lot.


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## ADF (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

Right... that's enough.

I'm honestly getting tired of some people in here. Why is it I keep having to spend so much of my time in this thread pointing out criticisms were made of claims I never made, or my position is being exaggerated, or the context in which I said something is being distorted. I spend more time having to reinforce the meaning of previous statements than actually discussing new ones.

Like this.



Onnes said:


> That you would so fixate on a statement by a single ultra-conservative Saudi cleric says a lot.



I made one idle reference in one post of what I stated was one religious figure that made that comment, and all the sudden *I'm "fixated"* with this? A clear exaggeration of my position that is being used as an attack on my character. What does "says a lot" mean? That I referenced a example of the unsavoury purpose of the Burka? If this guy didn't make such a comment, how does that retract from what the Burka is?

I am sickened by the people in this thread who feel the need to defend such a barbaric item of clothing. I haven't been given one example of the Burka having any function outside of oppressing women, yet I keep being talked to as if I am oppressing people for being against it. Most Muslim countries don't even use it, they often just use head scarfs. Because it is primary used by a fanatical (sorry, not PC apparently) ultra-conservative segment of Islam. I also keep being lectured on the foolishness of banning it, when the primary point of my responses has been tolerance of the subjugation of women in a 1st world western country that takes pride in equality. It's what the clothing represents that's the problem and where it is going on of all places.

I'm being treated like I'm the extremist for having a problem with a double standard being recognised in my country. I think people here underestimate just how much mutual respect and tolerance is to most European countries. Britain in particular takes great pride in being a progressive and multicultural society. So for oppression of women to be tolerated in this country in the name of mutual respect; is not a matter that can just be brushed off. 

I'm not a bigot for wanting what our culture would deem to be backwards treatment of the opposite sex; to be removed from my homeland. I'm not going to let labels like "xenophobe" scare me away from standing by my values, just because the threat to those values happens to be a foreign culture that has moved over here. People are trying very hard to make me sound bad for being against all the previously mentioned, but quite frankly; that "says a lot" about them. I wouldn't want to be a apologetic for backwardness in the 21st century so not to look "bigoted" of other cultures. And no, there is no gray area. A country that treats women like second class citizens is backward. A country that makes illegal homosexuality is backward. These are not gray areas, I'm not going to apologise for holding these values; just because they may offend someone else.

And that's final. 

If you want to label me a xenophobe for holding these values; then fine. Because I won't deny it, I'm a total bigot against complete and utter affronts to the value system of my culture; and I have zero tolerance for them.


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## Bliss (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Right... that's enough.
> 
> I'm honestly getting tired of some people in here. Why is it I keep having to spend so much of my time in this thread pointing out criticisms were made of claims I never made, or my position is being exaggerated, or the context in which I said something is being distorted. I spend more time having to reinforce the meaning of previous statements than actually discussing new ones.


I love how you tend to lay all blame on another party. First it is EU, then it is the 'Mooslim!!1' and now us!



> I am sickened by the people in this thread who feel the need to defend such a barbaric item of clothing. I haven't been given one example of the Burka having any function outside of oppressing women, yet I keep being talked to as if I am oppressing people for being against it.


_Screw you._ No poor white boy tells women how to dress.


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## Kellie Gator (Dec 31, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



ADF said:


> Tolerance of the Burka is tolerance of intolerance, it's part of what I don't like about state multiculturism.


A cloth's a cloth, dude. Just because it's used for a certain purpose there doesn't mean it has to here. People should wear what the fuck they want.



ADF said:


> There are many things from those countries that we do have a ban on, like hate crimes against homosexuals. Why should we tolerate bigotry in our own boarders?


It's not bigotry if immigrants to wear them on their own. We've been over this several times, haven't we?


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## Bliss (Dec 31, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Kellie Gator said:


> A cloth's a cloth, dude. Just because it's used for a certain purpose there doesn't mean it has to here. People should wear what the fuck they want.
> 
> It's not bigotry if immigrants to wear them on their own. We've been over this several times, haven't we?


It is curious to notice how ever since these eurosceptics and anti-immigration people gained a political foothold "yeah, so what?" has replaced the "I'm not racist but..." in the last few years. It has somehow become more socially acceptable. Reminds me when recently a True Finn - apparently a fine example of ADF's political pornography - was exposed applying for a neo-Nazi organisation. Her comment was: "If racism means I love my own children more than the neighbour's immigrant brats then, yeah, I am a racist."

You just don't know anymore.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

^Isn't there a neo-nazi party in one european country?


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## Dreaming (Dec 31, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



CannonFodder said:


> ^Isn't there a neo-nazi party in one european country?



There's a few. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism


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## ADF (Dec 31, 2011)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



Lizzie said:


> It is curious to notice how ever since these eurosceptics and anti-immigration people gained a political foothold "yeah, so what?" has replaced the "I'm not racist but..." in the last few years. It has somehow become more socially acceptable. Reminds me when recently a True Finn - apparently a fine example of ADF's political pornography - was exposed applying for a neo-Nazi organisation. Her comment was: "If racism means I love my own children more than the neighbour's immigrant brats then, yeah, I am a racist."
> 
> You just don't know anymore.



You still egobating for attention? Why are you still referring to me in this manner? Constantly calling me a racist for expressing genuine issues, it's the sort of propaganda people are getting sick of in this country. Bloody Gorden Brown calling a women a bigot when he thought the microphone was turned off, because she dared express immigration concerns.

Honestly, what the hell do you know? Immigration was rated the 2nd highest issue in the previous UK election, something all three major parties had to take a position on. A recent 470 colleges have had to have had their foreign student licenses barred, because it was found they were abusing it to help illegitimate students get in the country. England is the most populated landmass in Europe and it is a island nation that has to import a lot of its resources. We literally cannot build houses fast enough to keep up with the population increase, there is a shortage of affordable homes.

Immigration is a serious issue in this country, as well as the integration problems of foreign cultures. Yet you talk about it as if its a none issue that only a racist would talk about, something the British people made clear last election that they are getting SICK of. They had to coin the term "space, not race" because of the absurd amount of xenophobia accusations over genuine issues.

You don't appreciate the significance of these issues in my country, so kindly stop your idle speculation. Nationalist parties like the BNP (And True Finns as you say) are on the rise because of people like you. Because of people who make it impossible to discuss or make any progress on issues that are important to the people of this country, so they are pushed towards extremist parties they otherwise would never consider; but are their only option for these issues. 

That's why the BNP vote rose last election, that is why the True Finns came out of nowhere and took 19% of the vote. Because of the this way or racist, black and white mentality that has infected politics.


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## AshleyAshes (Jan 1, 2012)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*

And thus, ADF fails at leaving a thread when he says he will.

Maybe instead he should focus more efforts on not 'Living with his mom while thinking he knows all about how the world works'. :V


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## ADF (Jan 1, 2012)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> And thus, ADF fails at leaving a thread when he says he will.
> 
> Maybe instead he should focus more efforts on not 'Living with his mom while thinking he knows all about how the world works'. :V



Siding with someone who has demonstrated a ignorance on MY country's issues, yet feels the need to stamp racist on my forehead for not submitting to their ignorance, still continuing to attack my name for personal amusement in the thread. You must love it I'm sure, over the years; random attacks on my character in various threads has practically been your hobby. Regardless of the thread, you've always had something to say about irrelevant aspects of my life. It doesn't matter if it is religion, politics or economics; you always seem to think me being on job seekers and living at home is somehow relevant to the discussion. I'm sure that's some sort of logical fallacy, to attack someone's character to detract from their arguments.

If you want to make me feel guilty about being supported right now, considering the number of furs struggling to live on their own, you're going to have to use a different tactic; because I feel damn lucky and contribute where I can.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Jan 1, 2012)

*Re: Why do muslims in france not assimilate culturally whereas other countries they d*



AshleyAshes said:


> And thus, ADF fails at leaving a thread when he says he will.
> 
> Maybe instead he should focus more efforts on not 'Living with his mom while* thinking he knows all about how the world works'. *:V



Everyone should keep this in mind. Every country works differently.  Because a lot of people here seem to think they know everything about the United Kingdom and as far as I can tell, no one lives in the UK in this thread except me and ADF.

Anyway, gonna shove my two cents in for a moment. Just like America has a problem with illegal aliens jumping across the American/Mexican boarder, we have our problems similar to that here. Except here, they stowaway on the backs of trucks. It's ignorant to accuse someone of being xenophobe or a racist (or both) when they express a genuine concern, or when they speak of genuine problems. 

I watched several episodes of "UK Boarder Patrol" today while I was at mums. This show highlights the problems the Boarder police face everyday, finding immigrants who have out stayed their visa (one woman had outstayed her welcome (so to speak) for two years and naturally got deported back to Korea. They highlighted how people stowaway on the backs of trucks carrying cargo from Europe to the UK. This isn;t just a "once in a blue moon" thing, this is a daily thing.

However, on the other side of the coin, there are many immigrants who do play by the rules. They had a part on the show where they went to a pizza place, the two workers were legal, had all the right visas and stuff, except one guy they were employing, his Visa had run out. 

I have been thinking a lot since I left the thread, when ever I go into a take out in town, I never think about whether the workers are legal or illegal immigrants, all I do is order, have a laugh with them, and come home enjoying the food. Sometimes all the crap the media spreads about foreigners makes us forget one important thing, it doesn't matter where someone comes from, it's what they are like as a person that counts. Not their religion, not their country of origin, not the clothes they choose to wear, just what they are as a person.

That is something I forgot earlier in this thread and I was quick to judge and generalize and for that, I apologize.


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