# OS written entirely in Assembly O.o



## ToeClaws (Aug 19, 2009)

Wow... I used to joke that someone should write an OS in Assembly to make it super fast and efficient - looks like these guys did!

http://www.menuetos.net/

Was posted on Slashdot today, so their site may be suffering from the usual Slashdotted affects.

Highlights:

- Pre-emptive multitasking with 1000hz scheduler, multithreading, ring-3 protection
- Responsive GUI with resolutions up to 1280x1024, 16 million colours
- Free-form, transparent and skinnable application windows, drag'n drop
- IDE: Editor/Assembler for applications
- USB 2.0 Hi-speed storage, webcam and printer support
- TCP/IP stack with Loopback & Ethernet drivers
- Email/ftp/http/chess clients and ftp/mp3/http servers
- Hard real-time data fetch
- *Fits on a single floppy  *

That last one's a bit mind boggling.


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## Runefox (Aug 19, 2009)

Sounds interesting, but it looks like it _only_ comes on a floppy image, and it may also have very little hardware support in terms of network cards... So that may preclude my trying it out.


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## ToeClaws (Aug 19, 2009)

Yeah - still looks like a beta really, but it's a cool idea.  Honestly though, out of the 300+ Linux/Unix/Alternate OS's out there, there are only a handful that are actually well written and very usable.  

I'll give this a whirl... if I can find a working floppy.


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## fwLogCGI (Aug 19, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Sounds interesting, but it looks like it _only_ comes on a floppy image,


But it says there is a CD on the site,


> - 29.12.2007 CD available for download


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## Runefox (Aug 19, 2009)

fwLogCGI said:


> But it says there is a CD on the site,



The CD Download page seems to indicate that the CD contains only applications.


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## Aurali (Aug 19, 2009)

Yeah, looking through the file sets, it doesn't look like there is an installer on the CD, however; what's stopping us from using the diskette image and putting it on a CD?
(or a USB?)


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## CaptainCool (Aug 19, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> - *Fits on a single floppy  *









this seems to be pretty neat. ill check it out^^


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## Runefox (Aug 19, 2009)

Eli said:


> Yeah, looking through the file sets, it doesn't look like there is an installer on the CD, however; what's stopping us from using the diskette image and putting it on a CD?
> (or a USB?)



Laziness and a broken USB flash drive that I need to RMA.

>_> That reminds me, I need to RMA that flash drive.


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## ToeClaws (Aug 19, 2009)

Yeah, you can always just move the image to a bootable CD.  FYI, I tried it on a floppy on an older P4 2.4GHz system here at work - really does boot off a floppy to a GUI, but in my case, it didn't detect the mouse.  The GUI looks to be almost entirely mouse-driven, so I couldn't really do or see much.


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## WarMocK (Aug 19, 2009)

LOL, Ok, can't beat that with K-9. xD
It's awesome what people are able to do with a few bits and bytes.


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 19, 2009)

What?  No internet?


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## ToeClaws (Aug 19, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> What?  No internet?



It's got Internet capability.  Now... if you're looking for IPX or Banyan VINES capabilities... you'll still have to get something else.


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## SnowFox (Aug 19, 2009)

I must have this. Looks like it doesn't work in MS virtual PC though.

Does it run from the floppy or just boot from it to install? If I try it on a real PC I don't want it overwriting anything


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## ToeClaws (Aug 19, 2009)

SnowFox said:


> I must have this. Looks like it doesn't work in MS virtual PC though.
> 
> Does it run from the floppy or just boot from it to install? If I try it on a real PC I don't want it overwriting anything



It actually runs from the floppy - I booted up a PC with it and it didn't touch the hard drive.  Safe to try.  The hardest part of running it is actually finding a working Floppy.


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## SnowFox (Aug 19, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> It actually runs from the floppy - I booted up a PC with it and it didn't touch the hard drive.  Safe to try.  The hardest part of running it is actually finding a working Floppy.



Yeah true, I actually used to use floppies only 4 years ago when I was a computer n00b. I lost so much of my work on them


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## Sassy (Aug 19, 2009)

> Responsive GUI with resolutions up to 1280x1024, 16 million colours
Oh wow! HOW CUTTING EDGE OF THEM.


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## ArielMT (Aug 19, 2009)

If you need tight and fast code without worry about porting it to different hardware, Assembly is the only way to go.  They don't do it anymore because processor time became less expensive than programmer time.


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## Runefox (Aug 19, 2009)

Sassy said:


> > Responsive GUI with resolutions up to 1280x1024, 16 million colours
> Oh wow! HOW CUTTING EDGE OF THEM.



Its footprint is less than 1.44MB, and it also has a full network stack. This actually _is_ impressive, and is a major departure from the paradigms that most modern operating systems have adopted. With less bloat comes more performance - The less influence the OS has on system performance, the more resources are left for applications. This is more or less nothing but a research project and may not evolve into anything more than a curiosity, but the ideas make it important and impressive, and it'll be interesting to watch its development.

The current way of thinking - Rapid development with little optimization, large memory footprints, and a reliance on more powerful hardware to complete the same tasks as we've been doing since the early days of the desktop PC - might take a few cues from this project.


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## WarMocK (Aug 19, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Its footprint is less than 1.44MB, and it also has a full network stack. This actually _is_ impressive, and is a major departure from the paradigms that most modern operating systems have adopted. With less bloat comes more performance - The less influence the OS has on system performance, the more resources are left for applications. This is more or less nothing but a research project and may not evolve into anything more than a curiosity, but the ideas make it important and impressive, and it'll be interesting to watch its development.
> 
> The current way of thinking - Rapid development with little optimization, large memory footprints, and a reliance on more powerful hardware to complete the same tasks as we've been doing since the early days of the desktop PC - might take a few cues from this project.


Indeed.
Operating systems are the same to a PC as reactive power is to electric systems: they are vital to make everything work at all, but they also require ressources for themselfs, which then are missing for anything else you want to run.


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## LizardKing (Aug 19, 2009)

But will it run on a mac?


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## fwLogCGI (Aug 19, 2009)

LizardKing said:


> But will it run on a mac?


Yes.
http://menuet.2.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1187


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## CAThulu (Aug 20, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> It actually runs from the floppy - I booted up a PC with it and it didn't touch the hard drive.  Safe to try.  The hardest part of running it is actually finding a working Floppy.



Glad my floppy drive still worked.  That was amazing; thanks for bringing it over! *G*   I still can't believe you can fit an entire O/S on that thing.  The GUI looked nice and clean, the mouse worked great, and as a bonus...you can play tetris.


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 20, 2009)

As impressive as it is, there is still the key issue of this OS not seeming to actually DO much.


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## WarMocK (Aug 20, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> As impressive as it is, there is still the key issue of this OS not seeming to actually DO much.


Please define "Do much".


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 20, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> Please define "Do much".


 
Be useful?

And while it brags about being 1.44mb, it also lacks almost all of applications one would expect to be installed by default with a desktop OS.


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## ToeClaws (Aug 20, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Be useful?
> 
> And while it brags about being 1.44mb, it also lacks almost all of applications one would expect to be installed by default with a desktop OS.



*chuckles* See, this is an interesting viewpoint I've noticed developing nowadays.  People have forgotten the prime function and definition of an OS.  All that an OS is supposed to be is an interface between the computer hardware, and the sack of meat trying to use the computer, because you don't speak each other's language.  Any application loaded onto the OS is not the OS itself, but extra programs that the OS executes on the hardware platform to provide further functionality to the meat sack. 

Go back 20 years, for example, and load up MS-DOS on a PC.  What does MS-DOS do... well not much.  It has some basic utilities packaged with it, the usual basic commands, but it doesn't do anything more.  

That's what these guys have done - they've returned to a more clean palette mentality and made a base OS that is nice and streamlined, and by comparison to something like DOS, has a ton of built in stuff.  You can then download some applications for it to expand its functionality, and hopefully if development continues, the list of things available for it will continue to grow.


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## net-cat (Aug 20, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Be useful?
> 
> And while it brags about being 1.44mb, it also lacks almost all of applications one would expect to be installed by default with a desktop OS.


What, like Office? Because I can think of some other operating systems that don't include that...


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## Sassy (Aug 20, 2009)

net-cat said:


> What, like Office? Because I can think of some other operating systems that don't include that...


What, like..a command prompt? Yeah. No command prompt.


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## ToeClaws (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> What, like..a command prompt? Yeah. No command prompt.



It's a completely new OS - you can't presume it should have a command prompt, or that you'd even know how to use it if it did.


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## Sassy (Aug 20, 2009)

I expect every OS I use; especially one as otherwise functionally _useless_ as this one to have a CLI by default. And I wouldn't call an OS that has been around since *2002* a "completely new OS"; fyi.
Maybe you should do some research before arguing with clearly superior intellects?


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## net-cat (Aug 20, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> The GUI looks to be almost entirely mouse-driven,





Sassy said:


> No command prompt.


I'm detecting a theme here. Usable keyboard interfaces are, sadly, a vanishing art. Mice were meant to complement keyboards, not replace them.

Still, I do appreciate the technical skill that went into this system. I'd class it as a "novel technology demo."


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## WarMocK (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> Maybe you should do some research before arguing with clearly superior intellects?


I thought he was argueing with you. 
And since it's still a beta system they still have enough time to implement a command prompt. IF there is a need for it at all. Tiny systems like these have little to no space left for rendundancy. Either GUI or CLI - pick your choice.

@net-cat: or a competitor to ExpressGate. ;-)


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## net-cat (Aug 20, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> @net-cat: or a competitor to ExpressGate. ;-)


*googles*

Oh, I remember hearing about that. Though I don't see them rewriting Skype in x86 assembler anytime soon.  (ExpressGate is Linux-based, if memory serves.)


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## WarMocK (Aug 20, 2009)

net-cat said:


> *googles*
> 
> Oh, I remember hearing about that. Though I don't see them rewriting Skype in x86 assembler anytime soon.  (ExpressGate is Linux-based, if memory serves.)


That's correct.
ExpressGate was (and still is) meant as some kind of emergency operating system directly embedded on various mainboards. And I think this little bugger here could serve the similar purpose very well as well. All it would need is some tools for hardware diagnosis, a tiny IRC client to call for help, and maybe a hardware monitor.


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## Irreverent (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> I expect every OS I use; especially one as otherwise functionally _useless_ as this one to have a CLI by default.



We've been using tty teleprinters and CLI console's since '63.  Its time to let them go.  An ASM coded, gui-enabled OS is an interesting thought experiment brought to life.  A voice actived UI with a slough of hid's would have impressed me, if only for the tenacity of their driver development team.



> And I wouldn't call an OS that has been around since *2002* a "completely new OS"; fyi.



By that jaded definition, all OS development stopped with VM in the early '80's  Really, nothing new has been introduced since.  Ported to thousands of different platforms, but no new algorithms introduced.



> Maybe you should do some research before arguing with clearly superior intellects?



Maybe you could buttress your arguments with facts and peer reviewed opinions, instead of relying on ad hominid attacks?



WarMocK said:


> That's correct.
> ExpressGate was (and still is) meant as some kind of emergency operating system directly embedded on various mainboards. And I think this little bugger here could serve the similar purpose very well as well. All it would need is some tools for hardware diagnosis, a tiny IRC client to call for help, and maybe a hardware monitor.



As a low-footprint ILO OS, this minuetos has some potential.


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## ZentratheFox (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> Maybe you should do some research before arguing with *clearly superior intellects?*



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh god
Funniest thing I've read today. Thanks for that.

Oh, and on topic...

I'm going to piece together a system out of spare parts when I get home and load this OS. I'm definitely anxious to see how well it works.


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## WarMocK (Aug 20, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> I'm going to piece together a system out of spare parts when I get home and load this OS. I'm definitely anxious to see how well it works.


Awesome. 
Please let us know when you're done with testing. ^^


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## Sassy (Aug 20, 2009)

So wait wait, *I* get infracted; but Zentra here posts basically a direct flame and *that's* okay? You guys just haaaate it when I'm right (which is basically always) and get so damn butthurt about it. Get over yourselves, petals <3


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## ZentratheFox (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> So wait wait, *I* get infracted; but Zentra here posts basically a direct flame and *that's* okay? You guys just haaaate it when I'm right (which is basically always) and get so damn butthurt about it. Get over yourselves, petals <3



1) should be brought to PM instead of public,
2) I wasn't flaming, just informing you that you're hilarious. 

OT: does anyone know if it supports 1440x900? I've got an old laptop here that would be a perfect candidate...


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## Sassy (Aug 20, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> 1) should be brought to PM instead of public,
> 2) I wasn't flaming, just informing you that you're hilarious.


No, I think *public* shaming is the best way to deal with incompetent staff. The actions of such should always be made public at all times. They're here to *serve* us, the people; after all.


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## WarMocK (Aug 20, 2009)

ZentratheFox said:


> 1) should be brought to PM instead of public,
> 2) I wasn't flaming, just informing you that you're hilarious.


3) Ok, you guys both made your statements, now back on topic.


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## WarMocK (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> $InsertUnnecessarilyRudeCommentHere


You want another one for harassment?
No?
Then quit it, or I'll send you on a longer vacation than last time.

@topic: I wonder what speed advantage they actually got out of programming it in Assembler. OÃ´


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## ToeClaws (Aug 20, 2009)

Sassy said:


> Maybe you should do some research before arguing with clearly superior intellects?



I would - but I was not arguing, and as a 14 year old kid with little education, life experience, business experience or social tact, there's a distinct lack of intellectual superiority to argue with.  

Back on topic...

The OS is still in beta without an official v1.0 release, so yeah, it's new.  That they coded all that in just 7 years in such a horrible programming language is quite astounding.

In general, I think it's just cool to see folks still interested in efficiency when it comes to coding.  When I went for my degree, it was originally for programming, but I realized part way through that I didn't like it - largely because of the rise of the GUI and how horribly inefficient the libraries were that you had to include to generate the standardized GUI windows and functions.  I was always someone that tried to keep code very efficient and fast, so seeing an OS like this is just cool.


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## net-cat (Aug 20, 2009)

Okay, thread over.

Derailment, etc.

Since there's nothing wrong with the topic, feel free to start a new one.


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