# The one-sided focus of 9/11 - the Twin Towers.



## CAThulu (Sep 11, 2011)

I realize I'm going to be incredibly unpopular with this but I'm kind of disturbed by what I've been seeing with the reporting of the 10th anniversary of the attacks.

Has anyone, _anywhere, _seen any reference at all to the other hijacked planes?  You know, the one that hit the pentagon and the one that was brought down by the brave passengers before it could hit the White House?  I'm not trying to derail the honour that should be given to those who died in NYC ten years ago today, but there were so many others that were affected by this outside of the Twin Towers.  I also understand the importance of symbolism (fire-fighters and 2 towers makes easily recognizable icons).   It saddens me deeply however that in all this I've never seen one article, report, or blog about the rest of the victims.  It's all about the Twin Towers.  If anyone can find an article that proves me wrong, link it.  Prove me wrong!

All I'm saying is, let's remember everyone, not just New York.


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 11, 2011)

There were a lot of articles on it within the first three years or so of the attack, but in general people like to focus on the one that had footage and was in a really populated area.


----------



## Alstor (Sep 11, 2011)

It's odd that you say that. I'm seeing a WHOLE lot of stuff happening in Shanksville. But I would agree that nothing is happening at the Pentagon.


----------



## CAThulu (Sep 11, 2011)

Gavrill said:


> There were a lot of articles on it within the first three years or so of the attack, but in general people like to focus on the one that had footage and was in a really populated area.


That's true, but what about today (not the footage, but the articles)?   The pentagon was also a heavily populated area, and 10 years down the road I think that the same attention should be paid across the board to all victims, not just in one particular site.



Alstor said:


> It's odd that you say that. I'm seeing a WHOLE lot of stuff happening in Shanksville. But I would agree that nothing is happening at the Pentagon.


Okay, that's just fucking wrong. :C


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 11, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> That's true, but what about today (not the footage, but the articles)?   The pentagon was also a heavily populated area, and 10 years down the road I think that the same attention should be paid across the board to all victims, not just in one particular site.


I honestly have no idea why there isn't/wasn't more coverage. I guess whatever makes America hate terrorists more is what Americans focus on?


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Gavrill said:


> I honestly have no idea why there isn't/wasn't more coverage. I guess whatever makes America hate terrorists more is what Americans focus on?


News channels like grabbing views.


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 11, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> Has anyone, _anywhere, _seen any reference at all to the other hijacked planes?  You know, the one that hit the pentagon and the one that was brought down by the brave passengers before it could hit the White House?  I'm not trying to derail the honour that should be given to those who died in NYC ten years ago today, but there were so many others that were affected by this outside of the Twin Towers.



Like the thousands killed in the "war on terror", or the large scale erosion of human rights to "protect" people.


----------



## CAThulu (Sep 11, 2011)

News channels like views, but they can direct views as well.  They're better at misdirection and refocusing attention better then Penn and Teller.


LizardKing said:


> Like the thousands killed in the "war on terror", or the large scale erosion of human rights to "protect" people.


This.  Absolutely.  But I'm trying to keep it from getting political and just focusing on why New York is getting much more attention then the other sites.


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> News channels like grabbing views.


Views require depressing stories with intermittently thrown in stories about kittens that steal gloves.


----------



## CAThulu (Sep 11, 2011)

Yes, but that's oversimplifying matters and does a great dishonour to the forgotten victims.

Come on guys, put some thought into this.  *poke*


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 11, 2011)

I didn't sleep jeez CAT

I've been seeing a lot of stories about the "mosque at ground zero" (you know, the one that's actually not on ground zero) but of course that's FOX news...they're talking about the victims, firefighters, police, etc too. But no mention of the Pentagon or the passengers that stopped one of the flights.
I think because the death toll was generally higher - and there's more actual, recorded information about the twin tower disaster - that's why it's more of a focus. It still baffles me though, because the Pentagon is definitely more of an American symbol. 

When I was in school, we had to watch a movie about the firefighters in the twin towers and about how terrible it was, how many people died, about the people jumping off the top floors....
I don't know if this can be fully blamed on the media. It's just that the twin tower attacks had a lot more witnesses, and a lot more American citizens could identify with it (losing a plane full of people and some people in the Pentagon doesn't strike as hard as a place where people work and go by every day, perhaps). 

Generally I think it's more of a "which thing had the most information regarding it" sensation. That's my theory.


----------



## Alderic (Sep 11, 2011)

I have also thought of the same thing. But you MUST remember..The media prefers to make things into a scare tactic and only focus on the crimes rather than focusing on the ones who were lost. Let's say..That a girl was raped, Well they wouldn't go on to say what would happen to the child,only that it happened to her to scare people into being more protective of their children. (Just an example.) 
But when I think of 9/11 I think of the ones who were lost,Not the towers.


----------



## Aden (Sep 11, 2011)

I know I'm going to get blasted for this wording, but the World Trade Center is "catchy". That's all there is to it. The image of the the towers, the pre-2001 NYC skyline silhouette, the phrase "ground zero" - it's all very iconic and recognizable and easy to reference. The other two instances on the same day seem to be viewed by many as somehow auxiliary tragedies, not the centerpoint.

Besides, it stirs the most feeling in people with the least effort. You think the current news media would do it any other way?


----------



## Rilvor (Sep 11, 2011)

I think it also stems from the fact that the point of this is to get Americans to be sad as they remember (Or learn about, for some) this.

It is much harder to make people feel bad about the pentagon or one plane, but the deaths of thousands...

That and any of us should remember that coverage that day was a vast majority of the towers.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Gavrill said:


> I didn't sleep jeez CAT


You too?  I'm at 25 hours, I'd have some more coffee, but I'd end up with caffeine poisoning.


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> You too?  I'm at 25 hours, I'd have some more coffee, but I'd end up with caffeine poisoning.


32-ish and red bull


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Actually I barely remember 9/11, I'd have to say it was because I was only eleven years old and it was a decade ago.  So my memory of it kinda faded.  Like I remember my mom pulling me out of school and us sitting next to the tv, but not every last detail.  



Gavrill said:


> 32-ish and red bull


I have to keep staying up, cause my apartment office is only open for two hours today and I _have_ to pay my rent.


----------



## CAThulu (Sep 11, 2011)

Gavrill said:


> I didn't sleep jeez CAT
> 
> I've been seeing a lot of stories about the "mosque at ground zero" (you know, the one that's actually not on ground zero) but of course that's FOX news...they're talking about the victims, firefighters, police, etc too. But no mention of the Pentagon or the passengers that stopped one of the flights.
> I think because the death toll was generally higher - and there's more actual, recorded information about the twin tower disaster - that's why it's more of a focus. It still baffles me though, because the Pentagon is definitely more of an American symbol.
> ...



I didn't know you were running on no sleep.  I'm an elder god, I'm not  psychic.    (oh god, let's not derail this by discussing the powers of  Cthulu *L*)

Oddly enough, there's a lot of talk of 'sanitizing' the ground zero images by removing the 'falling man' and whatnot.  There's also little to no discussion on the increased cancer rates at the site because of the people breathing in asbestos, gold, lead, silver, cadmium, dust, and all the shit that went into the air from the catastrophe (all these heavy metals can be found in the insulation, computers, carpet fibres, furniture, etc and are released in fires and demolition).  There's an inherant danger in iconizing an event; it is too easy to remove the facts and twist it to suit an agenda - like the 'ground zero mosque' (which was 2 blocks away from where the twin towers was located)

And people went to work everyday at the pentagon, just like they did at the twin towers.  Plus, the WTC was an international site.  Every country lost citizens because of all the world businesses located in those offices.  I just think it's a great injustice to oversimplify a tragedy.  It's turning a meaningful event into pablum to spoonfeed the masses.



Alderic said:


> I have also thought of the same thing. But you MUST remember..The media prefers to make things into a scare tactic and only focus on the crimes rather than focusing on the ones who were lost. Let's say..That a girl was raped, Well they wouldn't go on to say what would happen to the child,only that it happened to her to scare people into being more protective of their children. (Just an example.)
> But when I think of 9/11 I think of the ones who were lost,Not the towers.



In the US, that is very true, but not so much of media outside of the country.  In Canada there is a propensity to focus on crime, but there is also a lot of focus on things that aren't tragic, in 'good news' as well as in the bad.  The bad news gets more focus in the American media because scare tactics catch ratings, but in Canada while the media does roll out the scary and bad news first in the news report, it's generally followed by good and mundane news afterward and it's more balanced.   Unless it's an exceptionally active and shitty day for the planet.   The problem with using scare tactics as well is that it's like shaking a hive of bees; the populace gets agitated beyond what they should be, and that's not healthy.



Aden said:


> I know I'm going to get blasted for this wording, but the World Trade Center is "catchy". That's all there is to it. The image of the the towers, the pre-2001 NYC skyline silhouette, the phrase "ground zero" - it's all very iconic and recognizable and easy to reference. The other two instances on the same day seem to be viewed by many as somehow auxiliary tragedies, not the centerpoint.
> 
> Besides, it stirs the most feeling in people with the least effort. You think the current news media would do it any other way?



No, and that's just sloppy.  The maximum effect with the least amount of effort is tabloid journalism, pure and simple.  And you're right, WTC, Ground Zero, 9/11, they're all buzz terms now.  Don't forget, media is a master at creating icons and words that will become household terms.  It's an art, and it's what they do best.  Take it from someone who went to school for Graphic Design.  The entire purpose of advertising is to create an icon or phrase that will do just that; link an image with an idea in the shortest amount of time possible.   In a way, these buzz-words _advertise_ this tragedy so that everyone recognizes it, but no one really goes beyond the events other then 'it happened, it wuz sad'.


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 11, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> It's turning a meaningful event into pablum to spoonfeed the masses.



Honestly, I think the entirety of "post 9/11", with the war and all sorts of things can be described as such. I'll come back with a longer/more detailed reply after sleep. c:


----------



## CAThulu (Sep 11, 2011)

Gavrill said:


> Honestly, I think the entirety of "post 9/11", with the war and all sorts of things can be described as such. I'll come back with a longer/more detailed reply after sleep. c:



I look forward to seeing your analysis tomorrow...after you get a day's worth of sleep


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Actually I barely remember 9/11, I'd have to say it was because I was only eleven years old and it was a decade ago.  So my memory of it kinda faded.  Like I remember my mom pulling me out of school and us sitting next to the tv, but not every last detail.



I was 10 and I remember everything about it exactly. Weird, huh? My little brother was 6 and he's never even seen the footage.


I do think the entire thing is one-sided. Most definitely. I don't have TV or anything, so I'm not getting blasted with it all day, but it was sad. I was a bit young to understand quite what was happening, but I knew it was sad. Very sad. At the time we were sponsoring a little girl in New York, she lived not far from the towers. I remember my mum scrambling to try and find out if she was ok.

Little did I know just how quickly and drastically it was going to change the whole world.


----------



## Deo (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm just so sick of people demonizing muslims. Our college campus is having some sort of gathering/rally tonight about it and I keep hearing people say things like "Fuck those sand monkeys and their fucking fake god!" And it pisses me off to no end. NO END. 
GODDAMN PEOPLE.


----------



## Xenke (Sep 11, 2011)

Here's my thoughts: America needs to move on from 9/11.

It's not that this day shouldn't be remembered, but I think it's silly to observe it as a solemn day of mourning.

My advice, turn it into a day that celebrates our freedom. Hold a time of silence if you must, but overall rejoice rejoice in the fact that we are still here.

Note: I'm not advocating the celebration of death. I'm just saying we need to move past it.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 11, 2011)

Deo said:


> I'm just so sick of people demonizing muslims. Our college campus is having some sort of gathering/rally tonight about it and I keep hearing people say things like "Fuck those sand monkeys and their fucking fake god!" And it pisses me off to no end. NO END.
> GODDAMN PEOPLE.



Its a shame nobody remembers the murders of south Asians and "Those that looked middle eastern" that happened after the attacks....

I really see no reason at all why people must hate.


----------



## Jashwa (Sep 11, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of Americans (especially pre-teens and teenagers) don't even really know about the other two planes or know almost nothing other than the fact that there WERE two other planes...


----------



## Bliss (Sep 11, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> TBut I'm trying to keep it from getting political.


Aww! But I got all my time to live, I got all my hate to give. ;-;


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Sep 11, 2011)

Xenke said:


> Here's my thoughts: America needs to move on from 9/11.
> 
> It's not that this day shouldn't be remembered, but I think it's silly to observe it as a solemn day of mourning.
> 
> ...



Yeah, lets forget about all those people... Hey, while your at it, we should stop remembering pearl harbor or D-day as well. Memorial day, what a stupid day, we spend all day remembering those who sacrificed their lives in the service. Lets stop remembering them too. Lets get rid of all the war memorials we have in the country, cause you know, we should move on...

Big moments in history should be remembered. Like Roosevelt said about Pearl Harbor. A day which will live in infamy. Well, our generations Pearl Harbor was 9/11.
Like it or not, that day goes down in the history books as a day that changed the world.


Maybe for some of you, you were to young to realize what had happened or remember much. 

I was 14 and in High School at that time. That day was burned into my memory. I remember everything about that day in school.


----------



## Deo (Sep 11, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Yeah, lets forget about all those people... Hey, while your at it, we should stop remembering pearl harbor or D-day as well. Memorial day, what a stupid day, we spend all day remembering those who sacrificed their lives in the service. Lets stop remembering them too. Lets ged rid of all the war memorials we have in the country, cause you know. we should move on...
> 
> Big moments in history should be remembered. Like Roosevelt said about Pearl Habor. A day which will live in infamy. Well, our generations Pearl Harbor was 9/11.
> 
> ...


He didn't say forget, he said to move on and heal as a country. This conitnual yearly hate-sob fest over "those evil muslims" is not going to make us a more united or stronger country. We need to let go of the pain and move on to be proud and celebrate our freedom. What you're doing is just bologna and straw man. Rukh, be reasonable.


----------



## Xenke (Sep 11, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Yeah, lets forget about all those people... Hey, while your at it, we should stop remembering pearl harbor or D-day as well. Memorial day, what a stupid day, we spend all day remembering those who sacrificed their lives in the service. Lets stop remembering them too. Lets get rid of all the war memorials we have in the country, cause you know, we should move on...



Right, because you have to mourn people to remember them. Oh wait, that's not true at all. It's pointless to mourn death when you can celebrate life, and not just your life, but even the lives of the people who were lost.



> Big moments in history should be remembered. Like Roosevelt said about Pearl Harbor. A day which will live in infamy. Well, our generations Pearl Harbor was 9/11.
> Like it or not, that day goes down in the history books as a day that changed the world.



And I didn't say it should be forgotten, did I? Move past =/= purge from memory.



> Maybe for some of you, you were to young to realize what had happened or remember much.
> 
> I was 14 and in High School at that time. That day was burned into my memory. I remember everything about that day in school.



I, for one, remember that day really well. Almost everyone who worked downtown went home because everything closed down as a precaution, and as a result, schools also let parents pick up their children early. So yea, I watched pretty much the whole event on the news, and it's not something you forget.


----------



## Bliss (Sep 11, 2011)

There was a fancy quote to my liking that commented America's loose hand on the button and itself never having to experience missiles launched on its own soil. Darn, I want it bad, so bad.

So, Deo, have you confronted any of those fools?


----------



## VoidBat (Sep 11, 2011)

The towers had a symbolic value and were pretty well-known outside of the USA, thus it will attract more viewers/readers then the reports of the other flights. 
I guess the shock value is also important, a peaceful city, the very heart of a society where people come together has been attacked, for example. 

It's a good story, and whatever people like it or not the media knows how to milk it dry.


----------



## Deo (Sep 11, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> So, Deo, have you confronted any of those fools?


Yes, but sadly they are entrenched in their misconceptions and in their hate and though I talk to them they cannot seem to reliquish their idea of superiority and their idea that the war "sure showed them not to fuck with America". Those who've said such awful things actually staunchly believe they are saying the truth. And it makes me despair a little.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Deo said:


> He didn't say forget, he said to move on and heal as a country. This conitnual yearly hate-sob fest over "those evil muslims" is not going to make us a more united or stronger country. We need to let go of the pain and move on to be proud and celebrate our freedom. What you're doing is just bologna and straw man. Rukh, be reasonable.


To use a analogy we as a country need to stop pouring salt in the old wound and stick it.  Leaving the wound open lets hate towards muslims broil.


----------



## Deo (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> To use a analogy we as a country need to stop pouring salt in the old wound and stick it.  Leaving the wound open lets hate towards muslims broil.


In the book 1984 they have what's called a "10 minute hate" where everyday for 10 minutes everyone becomes enraged, violent, angry, and froths themselves up to a horrifying degree to the point where they can no longer see straight. We are doing this once a year in a "1440 minute hate". By working up and riling the American people to demonize a whole other class of people (most of which had no involvement and some of which died in the very event we are so upset over). This continual hate and anger does not help us as a species or as a world. It only incites greater violence and retribution in a never ending circle.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Deo said:


> In the book 1984 they have what's called a "10 minute hate" where everyday for 10 minutes everyone becomes enraged, violent, angry, and froths themselves up to a horrifying degree to the point where they can no longer see straight. We are doing this once a year in a "1440 minute hate". By working up and riling the American people to demonize a whole other class of people (most of which had no involvement and some of which died in the very event we are so upset over). This continual hate and anger does not help us as a species or as a world. It only incites greater violence and retribution in a never ending circle.


The problem is everyone knows history repeats, and yet we as a country don't learn from it in the least.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Sep 11, 2011)

Deo said:


> I'm just so sick of people demonizing muslims. Our college campus is having some sort of gathering/rally tonight about it and I keep hearing people say things like "Fuck those sand monkeys and their fucking fake god!" And it pisses me off to no end. NO END.
> GODDAMN PEOPLE.



Hell, it seems to be becoming "Hate everyone who has a religion, as this proves that religion can only cause evil".
One of the things that popped up on my newsfeed was a picture of the towers standing with the caption "Imagine no religion". When I reply that I dislike the concept, I get told "Yes, but I'm an athiest so I can respect you have a different opinion." Ugh.

The use of 9/11 for political/religious/anti-religious pushing is infuriating.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Hell, it seems to be becoming "Hate everyone who has a religion, as this proves that religion can only cause evil".
> One of the things that popped up on my newsfeed was a picture of the towers standing with the caption "Imagine no religion". When I reply that I dislike the concept, I get told "Yes, but I'm an athiest so I can respect you have a different opinion." Ugh.
> 
> The use of 9/11 for political/religious/anti-religious pushing is infuriating.


Is it just me or is the situation in Europe getting worse and worse every year?
And yes I do read the news about whats going on your side of the ocean.

If anything WWIII will be started by you guys and we'll be drawn into it.


----------



## Daisy La Liebre (Sep 11, 2011)

I hate the way that the religion of Islam has been demonized over the acts of a few individuals. Islam is a religion of peace (like most religions), whether you subscribe to the faith or not.

I was too young to remember the WTC attacks, and, being British, it didn't hit home as hard as it would have with Americans. As for the media coverage being centralized on the twin towers and the two other planes not getting a fair mention, I disagree:

"Nearly 3,000 people died when al Qaeda hijackers brought down the World Trade Centre towers, flew a plane into the Pentagon and onto a field in Pennsylvania." - Sky News.

That was the second paragraph of the article, so I thought it was fairly balanced and honored them all equally.


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Sep 11, 2011)

Deo said:


> He didn't say forget, he said to move on and heal as a country. This conitnual yearly hate-sob fest over "those evil muslims" is not going to make us a more united or stronger country. We need to let go of the pain and move on to be proud and celebrate our freedom. What you're doing is just bologna and straw man. Rukh, be reasonable.



Did I say anything about hate? No, I did not. I can tell you, what I am sick of seeing, is young teenagers who, laugh, mock, and think nothing of what happened that day. I have seen it on here too. If all you think the yearly remembrance is a hate fest. Then that's all you. Last time I checked, its about remembering those who were killed, remembering those who sacrificed themselves to save others. Its about remembering our countries heroes. Nothing about hate.

To heal is to remember and honor those who were killed and those who sacrificed their lives to help others. 

The last thing we should do, is dishonor those who died, or worse, spit upon their names.


----------



## Hendly Devin (Sep 11, 2011)

Probably because the plane that was taken back by the brave passengers probably wasnt taken back by passengers and was instead obliterated by an air force missile. And that the plane that hit the pentagon wasnt really a plane, i mean come on its the pentagon, its a tourist attraction too, no one was filming a plane crash into it? Not even security cameras? Also.... The same size planes that took down the towers only left a sixteen foot hole in the pentagon.... Not saying it was an inside job but it sure seems rather fishy to me...

It seems like to me that there might not be coverage or media focus on those events because they are so god damned fishy and nobody wants to really figure that said fishyness is the result of an "inside job"

Maybe im just an angry anti-government nut but im pretty damned certain that the plane that got taken back was shot down.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Jared said:


> I hate the way that the religion of Islam has been demonized over the acts of a few individuals. Islam is a religion of peace (like most religions), whether you subscribe to the faith or not.


It's pretty obvious how this shit is going to hit the fan, for instance that swedish bomber was called a christian fundamentalist.  He wasn't christian, he did the bombing cause of his anti-muslim views and because of that he was typecasted as such because the mentality of, "religion is the root of evil" is viewed as the norm and the mentality of "my side can never be wrong".

So yeah if WWIII starts it will more than likely not be the US' fault, but the resurgence of racism and radicalism in Europe sparking a international shitstorm.


----------



## Deo (Sep 11, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Did I say anything about hate? No, I did not. I can tell you, what I am sick of seeing, is young teenagers who, laugh, mock, and think nothing of what happened that day. I have seen it on here too. If all you think the yearly remembrance is a hate fest. Then that's all you. Last time I checked, its about remembering those who were killed, remembering those who sacrificed themselves to save others. Its about remembering our countries heroes. Nothing about hate.
> 
> To heal is to remember and honor those who were killed and those who sacrificed their lives to help others. Not spit upon their names.


Rukh your personal ideas and thoughts toward the day is specifically what I like to see and I encourage you to continue to respect the day. 
I never wanted the day "laughed and mocked" and I believe I never posted anything close to that, quote me if I am mistaken in this greivous error. And no, remembering the loss is not bad, but honing that loss into a hard sharp bundle of societal/national pain is.
What I am talking about moreso is not respecting the day, the heros, and the dead; but the way the date is manipulated into propaganda and how in the past (and present) it has been used by some to spread hate. Now I know you wouldn't spread hate, Rukh right? So we can at least agree that _using_ the innocent death of thousands as a device to emotionally manipulate people is a bad thing.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Deo said:


> Rukh your personal ideas and thoughts toward the day is specifically what I like to see and I encourage you to continue to respect the day.
> What I am talking about moreso is not respecting the day, the heros, and the dead; but the way the date is manipulated into propaganda and how in the past (and present) it has been used by some to spread hate. Now I know you wouldn't spread hate, Rukh right? So we can at least agree that _using_ the innocent death of thousands as a device to emotionally manipulate people is a bad thing.


Not to mention those people's deaths were manipulated for politcal gain.
I don't think using deaths to get your way counts as remembering them, instead it was rather bastardizing their loss into a sick twisted memory used to scare people into doing as you say.


----------



## Aden (Sep 11, 2011)

Hendly Devin said:


> Probably because the plane that was taken back by the brave passengers probably wasnt taken back by passengers and was instead obliterated by an air force missile. And that the plane that hit the pentagon wasnt really a plane, i mean come on its the pentagon, its a tourist attraction too, no one was filming a plane crash into it? Not even security cameras? Also.... The same size planes that took down the towers only left a sixteen foot hole in the pentagon.... Not saying it was an inside job but it sure seems rather fishy to me...
> 
> It seems like to me that there might not be coverage or media focus on those events because they are so god damned fishy and nobody wants to really figure that said fishyness is the result of an "inside job"



I really really hope this is Poe's Law in effect


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

It's done, it's over, it happened.  Remember the people, remember the mistakes made.  Quit obsessing over it.  Fuck, I HATE the media for turning this day into something so much BIGGER than Memorial Day or Veterans' Day or December 7.

I'm going to go play Jenga and drink soda sweetened with all-American high fructose corn syrup in remembrance.  Fuck off, jingoists and death-worshippers.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Sep 11, 2011)

I wanted to make a thread about it at the start of the day, but then I dropped off...

So, anyway, this whole brouhaha is nothing more than tragedy porn with an already mentioned commercial and, worse, a demagogic angle.

While we're at terrorism, how do you call an indecent multi-media campaign that's geared towards creating a climate of fear to facilitate your political agenda?


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Gryphoneer said:


> While we're at terrorism, how do you call an indecent multi-media campaign that's geared towards creating a climate of fear to facilitate your political agenda?


Actually that does fit into the definition of terrorism cause they're using intimidation tactics for political gain.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Sep 11, 2011)

On December 7, 1951, ten years after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Americans had long since defeated their Japanese assailants, defeated Germany and Italy before them, and after winning the war, were now in the more tiresome, frustrating, and lengthy task of winning the peace. But in the end, America defeated the militaristic aspects of Germany and Japan and would soon have two valuable allies who themselves would become subject to republican, rather than totalitarian rule. Even to this day, they remain allies of America.

On September 11, 2011, ten years after the attack on the World Trade Center, whether or not our Afghan assailants have been defeated is still open to interpretation. We did win the war against the Taliban but now, we find ourselves giving up the process of winning the peace and have since deputized the task of enacting a new government based upon the principles of republicanism and order. We have found that our Afghan and Iraqi deputies are too incompetent, corrupt, untrained, weak, or any combination thereof to do the job. We have not really defeated the militaristic aspects of Afghanistan and Iraq, they are not our allies, and after a short-lived flirtation with elected officials in Afghanistan, many believe that Afghanistan and Iraq will fall once again into totalitarian rule. I believe the grandsons of the Afghans will probably hate our grandsons in the 2070's, seventy years after the attack that brought Americans to Afghanistan.


----------



## Hendly Devin (Sep 11, 2011)

Aden said:


> I really really hope this is Poe's Law in effect


You dont think its entirely possible that the airforce shot down an airliner and made up a heroing story to cover it up?

Its not fishy to you that the hole in the pentagon was so small when the the same size and model plane hit the wtc it destroyed them?

No instead, saying something like that is just so outrageous i must be trying to troll...


----------



## Xenke (Sep 11, 2011)

Hendly Devin said:


> You dont think its entirely possible that the airforce shot down an airliner and made up a heroing story to cover it up?
> 
> Its not fishy to you that the hole in the pentagon was so small when the the same size and model plane hit the wtc it destroyed them?



I'm sure some people here will find this "entertaining" in their own way, but whatever.

As for the Pentagon thing, you do realize that different building with different structures constructed differently will react differently to planes crashing into them, right?


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

DarrylWolf said:


> On December 7, 1951, ten years after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Americans had long since defeated their Japanese assailants, defeated Germany and Italy before them, and after winning the war, were now in the more tiresome, frustrating, and lengthy task of winning the peace. But in the end, America defeated the militaristic aspects of Germany and Japan and would soon have two valuable allies who themselves would become subject to republican, rather than totalitarian rule. Even to this day, they remain allies of America.
> 
> On September 11, 2011, ten years after the attack on the World Trade Center, whether or not our Afghan assailants have been defeated is still open to interpretation. We did win the war against the Taliban but now, we find ourselves giving up the process of winning the peace and have since deputized the task of enacting a new government based upon the principles of republicanism and order. We have found that our Afghan and Iraqi deputies are too incompetent, corrupt, untrained, weak, or any combination thereof to do the job. We have not really defeated the militaristic aspects of Afghanistan and Iraq, they are not our allies, and after a short-lived flirtation with elected officials in Afghanistan, many believe that Afghanistan and Iraq will fall once again into totalitarian rule. I believe the grandsons of the Afghans will probably hate our grandsons in the 2070's, seventy years after the attack that brought Americans to Afghanistan.


Afghanistan is Vietnam 2.0


----------



## Pipsqueak (Sep 11, 2011)

Hendly Devin said:


> Its not fishy to you that the hole in the pentagon was so small when the the same size and model plane hit the wtc it destroyed them?



Viewpoints like this can be more attributed to simple ignorance rather than malice. What most people don't know, due to having never looked into the matter, is that the Pentagon is one of the most, if not the most, fortified public buildings in the United States. The walls are extremely reinforced concrete, brick, and stone two feet thick, lined with Kevlar, extra steel beams to increase blast resistance, and 2 inch thick windows to further increase damage resistance-  in general very, very tough.  If one were to look at tests were airplanes have hit structures of similar strength, there usually isn't much left over of the plane. Of course, a passenger liner is much larger than the fighters used in those tests. Hence why the damage was much greater. Not to mention that what footage that does exist is all extremely indicative of an air craft. As is the pattern of damage. Cruise missiles using high explosive do not create the same kind of damage as was inflicted upon the pentagon


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 11, 2011)

Hendly Devin said:


> You dont think its entirely possible that the airforce shot down an airliner and made up a heroing story to cover it up?



And this is more plausible to you than a bunch of terrorists pulling off the most effective terrorist attack with good planning and complete surprise because... ?



Hendly Devin said:


> Its not fishy to you that the hole in the pentagon was so small when the the same size and model plane hit the wtc it destroyed them?



No, because physics in the real world doesn't behave like a "Wile E. Coyote" cartoon.



Hendly Devin said:


> No instead, saying something like that is just so outrageous i must be trying to troll...



Yes, yes you are.


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Afghanistan is Vietnam 2.0



There's hope then - because these days Vietnam is just another trading partner in South East Asia: stable, developing fairly well and quite peaceable with its neighbours.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> No, because physics in the real world doesn't behave like a "Wile E. Coyote" cartoon.


Speaking of physics one of the reasons why the towers fell was because the insulation on the truss' fire suppression foam were horribly maintained.  Had they maintained it properly they would've lasted longer and far less people would have died.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Afghanistan is Vietnam 2.0



Not really, This is more like the African Bush wars part 2.


----------



## Fenrari (Sep 11, 2011)

Companies are milking this disaster as a means of making a profit. If they so choose to focus on one specific concept/idea, it's usually because of it's the easist to market.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Sep 11, 2011)

But the worst thing about 9/11 is our unwillingness to discuss what motivated the attackers out of fear that we might offend people. Pearl Harbor was the result of people who were members of the Nipponese Imperialist cult- they worshipped the Emperor Hirohito, believed the the world would be better off ruled by Japan, and thought that attacking America was a religious duty- no historian would doubt that. But today, we can't admit that the Saudi-born terrorists were motivated by extremist Islam, out of fear that somebody might be insulted.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Fenrari said:


> Companies are milking this disaster as a means of making a profit. If they so choose to focus on one specific concept/idea, it's usually because of it's the easist to market.


It wouldn't surprise me if in the future we have some commercialized way of remembering it.  Like, "call now 1-800-yo-sucker to order your rememberance baskets only $19.95".


DarrylWolf said:


> But the worst thing about 9/11 is our  unwillingness to discuss what motivated the attackers out of fear that  we might offend people. Pearl Harbor was the result of people who were  members of the Nipponese Imperialist cult- they worshipped the Emperor  Hirohito, believed the the world would be better off ruled by Japan, and  thought that attacking America was a religious duty- no historian would  doubt that. But today, we can't admit that the Saudi-born terrorists  were motivated by extremist Islam, out of fear that somebody might be  insulted.


Muslims have already been demonized to the point that many violent acts were taken against them.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Afghanistan is Vietnam 2.0



Only superficially.  I hold out little hope for Afghanistan or any other place in the Middle East becoming more amicable and tolerant towards the West and our influence, and I hold out little (but slightly more) hope for the reverse as well.  The lines have been drawn in an Abrahamic blood feud lasting well over a millennium now.  You could take religion out of the picture altogether and the outlook wouldn't be much rosier - the culture clash is significant.  We have ALL seen what people act like when their belief systems and "conventional wisdom" is challenged, especially by outsiders and anyone else they view as lesser-than.  People love to hate people who are different.  It's a basic instinctual concept of genetic supremacy gone farther than genetics could have ever taken it, through the gift of sapience (one of the keenest, most beautiful and most dangerous double-edged swords ever to be forged).  Actual peace will not likely come through any other means than assimilation and homogenization by one side or the other, and until then it will be an uneasy truce at best.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Tycho said:


> Only superficially.  I hold out little hope for Afghanistan or any other place in the Middle East becoming more amicable and tolerant towards the West and our influence, and I hold out little (but slightly more) hope for the reverse as well.  The lines have been drawn in an Abrahamic blood feud lasting well over a millennium now.  You could take religion out of the picture altogether and the outlook wouldn't be much rosier - the culture clash is significant.  We have ALL seen what people act like when their belief systems and "conventional wisdom" is challenged, especially by outsiders and anyone else they view as lesser-than.  People love to hate people who are different.  It's a basic instinctual concept of genetic supremacy gone farther than genetics could have ever taken it, through the gift of sapience (one of the keenest, most beautiful and most dangerous double-edged swords ever to be forged).  Actual peace will not likely come through any other means than assimilation and homogenization by one side or the other, and until then it will be an uneasy truce at best.


Peace in that area will not likely come within our lifetime.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Peace in that area will not likely come within our lifetime.



Thanks to the Soviets, the region has been at war for 33 years.

Beforehand it was a prosperous kingdom that had a good human rights record, good infrastructure, and a newly educated populace.

Thanks alot Soviets....


----------



## Aden (Sep 11, 2011)

Hendly Devin said:


> You dont think its entirely possible that the airforce shot down an airliner and made up a heroing story to cover it up?
> 
> Its not fishy to you that the hole in the pentagon was so small when the the same size and model plane hit the wtc it destroyed them?



oh no no no, we are not starting this here and now


----------



## Bliss (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Is it just me or is the situation in Europe getting worse and worse every year?


World's biggest economy? Quality of life? Educational level of the population? GEZELLIGHEID!?



> If anything WWIII will be started by you guys and we'll be drawn into it.





CannonFodder said:


> So yeah if WWIII starts it will more than likely not be the US' fault, but the resurgence of racism and radicalism in Europe sparking a international shitstorm.


Possibly...

... but, y'know, maybe not. People like to co-operate with us better. D:



DarrylWolf said:


> But the worst thing about 9/11 is our unwillingness to discuss what motivated the attackers out of fear that we might offend people. [Insert a war/assault/something] was the result of people who were members of the American Hegemony cult- they worshipped the Mighty Warlord Bush, believed the the world would be better off ruled by capitalism USA McDonald's freedom, and thought that attacking [insert a place with oil or of strategic importance] was a religious duty- no historian would doubt that. But today, *we can't admit* that the American terrorists heroes were motivated by extremist, *out of fear that somebody might be insulted.*


Boy, you make me wild! :grin:

Know the saying "one country's terrorists are another one's freedom fighters"? That's why Palestineans cheered back then.


----------



## Unsilenced (Sep 11, 2011)

For one thing, the bulk of the casualties were in New York. Over ten times as many people died there than did in the Pentagon or on flight 93. More people died in the rescue effort at the trade center than did in the other two attacks combined. 

That, plus there are hours and hours of footage of the trade center attacks. Hundreds of people got it on camera. You could spend days watching footage of the towers burning. There is just so much. 

The other attacks by contrast have a few frames of security footage and a black box recording respectively. 




CannonFodder said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if in the future we have some commercialized way of remembering it.  Like, "call now 1-800-yo-sucker to order your rememberance baskets only $19.95".



...

You mean you can't do that already?


----------



## Gryphoneer (Sep 11, 2011)

DarrylWolf said:


> On September 11, 2011, ten years after the attack on the World Trade Center, whether or not our Afghan assailants have been defeated is still open to interpretation. We did win the war against the Taliban but now, we find ourselves giving up the process of winning the peace and have since deputized the task of enacting a new government based upon the principles of republicanism and order. We have found that our Afghan and Iraqi deputies are too incompetent, corrupt, untrained, weak, or any combination thereof to do the job. We have not really defeated the militaristic aspects of Afghanistan and Iraq, they are not our allies, and after a short-lived flirtation with elected officials in Afghanistan, many believe that Afghanistan and Iraq will fall once again into totalitarian rule. I believe the grandsons of the Afghans will probably hate our grandsons in the 2070's, seventy years after the attack that brought Americans to Afghanistan.


Oh Sweet Zombie Jesus.

So that's how the end result of ten years Republican propaganda looks like...

There are and never where any "Afghan assailants." Not one of the 9/11 hijackers came from Afghanistan. Bin laden fled there because it got too risky staying in the villas of his various Saudi Arabian oil sheikh backers in the wake of the War On Abstract Nouns.

The Republicans, though, would really like you to forget it was them and their shining light Reagan that backed the mujahedin back in the day. They didn't care whether the funded even the worst religious fanatics as long as they fought against the oppressors, in this case the Soviets. But then their focus shifted to the US as the new oppressors and BAM... they developed into an organization commonly known as Al-Qaeda.

As the official 9/11 investigation reports revealed it was crass mismanagement of the intelligence services by the Bush administration that prevented the seasonable collation of leads, i.e. uncovering Al-Qaeda's plans.

Even if today's consensus among historians is that a renouncement of military action against Afghanistan would have been political suicide for Bush the conduct of the war effort was more than questionable, seeing that the civilian population was oppressed by a regime of religious fanatics that only got a hold in the land because Reagan and his father were guilty of neglecting to support the Afghans in rebuilding their infrastructure. People living in ruins and despair are prone to get taken over by dictators.

And then Bush Jr. made the same fucking stupid mistakes and even became a bigger criminal than Nixon.

He neglected support for the Afghan/Iraqi redevelopment efforts and put random, inexperienced and thus incompetent office jockeys (partly fresh from school) into all positions of supervision in the interim governments instead of experienced locals, resulting in severe mismanagement and hardships for the two populations.

Don't get me started on how he and his bunch of corporate sock puppets and criminals deceived the US public with ludicrous lies about a connection between Al-Qaeda and Hussein, WMDs and whatnot to steal the Iraq's oil...

To sum it up:

*The Republicans bear part of the blame for 9/11, the atrocious state of the Middle East and pretty much all of America's current problems.

*If you want to object to that last part, bear in mind it were Bush policies that caused the financial crash.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> World's biggest economy? Quality of life? Educational level of the population? GEZELLIGHEID!?
> 
> Possibly...
> ... but, y'know, maybe not. People like to co-operate with us better. D.


America isn't as bad as people say, everybody here complains about everybody else.  The liberals complain about the conservatives, the conservatives complain about the liberals, christians complain about atheists, atheists complain about christians, gays complain about straights(behind closed doors), straights complain about gays, people that like peanut butter complain about people who like jelly, whites complain about illegal immigrants.  If I had to explain american culture in one word it would be, "livejournal".
Not to mention so many people here say they want to move to canada cause they idealize canada as some sort of utopia, when in reality one of the friends I left behind moved from canada and he pretty much said it was comparably the same.
I'd have to say western cultured countries have more in common that we think, it's just blind nationalism that makes one view their country as a utopia or the reaction to blind nationalism that makes them view other countries as utopias.

Europe isn't a paradise that anti-nationalistic americans can flock to and america isn't a utopia.  They just are, as times go on some countries get worse to live in, some get better.  All in all just countries just are, it's the culture that makes a place.


----------



## Bliss (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Europe isn't a paradise that anti-nationalistic americans can flock to and america isn't a utopia.  They just are, as times go on some countries get worse to live in, some get better.  All in all just countries just are, it's the culture that makes a place.


Indeed!

So... do you want to 'flock' over here and get a covered SRS? I'm willing to house anti-nationalists at my home.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

Afghanistan is part of Reagan's legacy.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

When it comes to 9/11 I mainly hope the people's emotional wounds eventually heal, but it's become a three ring circus for media.

[tangent]


Lizzie said:


> Indeed!
> 
> So... do you want to 'flock' over here and get a covered SRS? I'm willing to house anti-nationalists at my home.


Not really.
I'm not a disillusioned idiot who runs away.  The way I look at is the people who complain, if they are not going anything to try and better the world towards what they want aka "be the hero of their own story" someone needs to shut them the hell up.  Cause too many people has a fetish for thumbs stuck up their ass, I don't.
[/tangent]


----------



## Gryphoneer (Sep 11, 2011)

DarrylWolf said:


> But today, we can't admit that the Saudi-born terrorists were motivated by extremist Islam, out of fear that somebody might be insulted.


OMG political correctness gone mad! LOL

Besides historians, political analysts (both government-employed or not) and whatever sort of pundit or layman, no, it's clearly a taboo to say they're religious extremists...


----------



## Bliss (Sep 11, 2011)

Go get 'em, tiger! 

But if you change your mind pull my sleeve; I'm provocating Christian Democrats over there.


----------



## Aleu (Sep 11, 2011)

I dunno. I see coverage about the other two planes, just more focused on the Twin Towers. Probably because a lot more people had died and that was what most people were watching at the time. Maybe it depends on the area?


----------



## Fay V (Sep 11, 2011)

Well i was going to comment, but then Cannon just quoted what I was mostly going to say anyway...damn...well I'll comment anyway. 

I don't actually like 9/11. Before anyone jumps on a "you want to forget!" thing, I'm not saying we need to dump 9/11 and forget it. I just don't like the way it is portrayed. What is everyone going to do today? Is it really appropriate to stop everything for the day and argue over the past? The reason I think that the pentagon is not as big of a point is it's fixed, physically. Lives are still broken, that can't be repaired, but the building itself was put together and the people moved on to work and actually catch the people that did this. 
The towers/tower however are different. It's still an open wound, a gash mark. ten years later and we have a half complete building, and people don't focus on the fact that it's almost 1000 feet high (or is, I haven't checked on the height lately) that people are moving on. they focus on the fact it had to be built in the first place. 

There are still serious problems from 9/11. we should talk about the new tower, and how people came together to make what will be an amazing building. We should also talk about the fact that firefighters are getting cancer from helping, and try to work to help them move past that day, get well, before it's too late. I just really hate 9/11 because it feels like we all stop to argue and open the wound again, picking at it over and over until it is a vile puss filled scar in our history. 
Well today, I am sorry for the families. I'm going to see what more has been done, i'm going to look up what can be done for the firefighters...and then I'll simply do the rest of my work.


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Sep 11, 2011)

To continue the discussion started by the OP. As someone that has to dredge through the 24 news groups at my job, I have to agonize through all the bs that comes with having those stations on. The OP is right that the a majority of coverage is Twin Towers focused and I'll place some debatable points on why that might be later that later. However, because the Shanksville, PA crash has just unveiled a memorial to those that lost their lives attempting to take the plane back, that memorial received a significant amount of coverage this year. Much more so than what I've experienced in the past. This isn't to say it's even, but at least the coverage has improved. However, the point that the Pentagon attack has seen less coverage, significantly less coverage, than the Twin Towers is entirely accurate. 

I argue the reason why the Twin Tower receive more coverage is likely due to these factors:

1. Human Relationship: So many more people died in the Twin Towers, so many more people's lives were affected as a result that the attacks developed a "larger" human connection. There's a more comprehensive story to build off that human connection. If anything I've noticed off the documentaries and other programs based off Twin Towers is that there is a significant focus on the people and the human connection that exists. It honestly feels like somebody you know knows somebody that lost a loved one in the Twin Towers. This isn't to diminish the lives of others lost in the other attacks, but the degrees of separation between myself and a Twin Tower victim is much closer than they are for United Flight 93 and Flight 77.
2. Iconic symbols: Pretty self explanatory as others have described. They were symbols of the power of the American economy, the might of New York, and the staples of the skyline. Their absence can still be felt.
3. Those of us that watched the footage those many years ago, specifically watched the whole nearly two hours of the Twin Towers burning before they collapsed. So many of us can vividly remember the room, atmosphere/everything going on around us while the Towers burned and fell. Even then the coverage of the Pentagon and Shanksville, PA was limited and was mixed with reports that the House of Congress had been hit too. But even with all the chaos, a focal point was those towers burning. I remember being enthralled and angry at the same time.

That being said, all the 24 hour news programs coverage of 9/11 is depressing and the only thing that breaks the depressing nature of replaying the events over and over and over is when they break to live coverage of families of victims to talk about their loss on national television, which is infuriating. And it's not because they're sharing their story, rather it's because the news channels come off as being so sleazy; they're parading families of victims in front of national television to have them describe one of their most painful moments in their lives in front of a live national audience. Something just doesn't seem right about that.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

Fay V said:


> we need to dump 9/11 and forget it



actually we should do this.  Cool fact: Norway has not gone to war or enacted legislation pertaining to their terrorist attack, and have instead chosen to fight hate with love.  It's pretty sad that all while all of the actual families of victims have moved on, we as a nation choose to fixate on only _one _of our many bad days and milk it till it's dry.  I love America.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Funny since most don't even know this year is the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbor.



what's pearl harbor


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Something I feel is more important to the world than 9/11.  Don't get me wrong, both are extremely sad dates in America's history.



Dat's da joke.  Anyways, death to America, etc.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Something I feel is more important to the world than 9/11.  Don't get me wrong, both are extremely sad dates in America's history.


We almost lost WWII before it even began there, the attack crippled a ton of our navy ships.


Fay V said:


> Well i was going to comment, but then Cannon just quoted what I was mostly going to say anyway...damn...well I'll comment anyway.
> I don't actually like 9/11. Before anyone jumps on a "you want to forget!" thing, I'm not saying we need to dump 9/11 and forget it. I just don't like the way it is portrayed. What is everyone going to do today? Is it really appropriate to stop everything for the day and argue over the past? The reason I think that the pentagon is not as big of a point is it's fixed, physically. Lives are still broken, that can't be repaired, but the building itself was put together and the people moved on to work and actually catch the people that did this.
> The towers/tower however are different. It's still an open wound, a gash mark. ten years later and we have a half complete building, and people don't focus on the fact that it's almost 1000 feet high (or is, I haven't checked on the height lately) that people are moving on. they focus on the fact it had to be built in the first place.
> 
> ...


Nowadays when they say, "remember 9/11" they actually mean, "remember how terrified you were so we can use that fear to benefit my party politically".
If we really remembered 9/11 then we would make sure that every skyscraper was up to code cause of the fact the fire foam was horribly non-maintained and had they have been the majority of those thousands of lives lost would be here today cause that would've given those people a hell of a lot more time to escape, as it stand no.

In reality we are even less safe nowadays, you know why?  Cause the political shitstorm that would ensue if something like that happened again would give politicians boners the size of the texas panhandle, cause then they'd be able to pass whatever the hell they wanted so long as it was titled something like, "protect america" or "bring justice" or such.


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Funny since most don't even know this year is the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbor.



Pearl Harbor is old news now. There are very few that remember it as it happened as opposed to simply being told about it in history class, and the instigators of the attack are now practically allies. It makes for poor television.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Sep 11, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> I realize I'm going to be incredibly unpopular with this but I'm kind of disturbed by what I've been seeing with the reporting of the 10th anniversary of the attacks.
> 
> *Has anyone, anywhere, seen any reference at all to the other hijacked planes?*  You know, the one that hit the pentagon and the one that was brought down by the brave passengers before it could hit the White House?  I'm not trying to derail the honour that should be given to those who died in NYC ten years ago today, but there were so many others that were affected by this outside of the Twin Towers.  I also understand the importance of symbolism (fire-fighters and 2 towers makes easily recognizable icons).   It saddens me deeply however that in all this I've never seen one article, report, or blog about the rest of the victims.  It's all about the Twin Towers.  If anyone can find an article that proves me wrong, link it.  Prove me wrong!
> 
> All I'm saying is, let's remember everyone, not just New York.



Yep, they've already had people on the site where Flight 93 crashed for a memorial.  But the Twin Towers are a focal point, a very evident loss... the place were most of the people died.  So, yes, you will find more on the Twin Towers and the effect their loss had on New York and our nation than you will with Flight 93 or the Pentagon.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> You guys weren't even close.  I promise you that one.


Uh dude, how the fuck were we supposed to get to japan and invade the territories they held without a navy?


----------



## Xenke (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Uh dude, how the fuck were we supposed to get to japan and invade the territories they held without a navy?



The Pearl Harbor attack was to cripple the US battleships, which were what Japan thought would be the main threat to them. The attack left US submarines and aircraft carriers untouched, which ended up being more of a problem for them.

History man.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Xenke said:


> The Pearl Harbor attack was to cripple the US battleships, which were what Japan thought would be the main threat to them. The attack left US submarines and aircraft carriers untouched, which ended up being more of a problem for them.
> 
> History man.


Actually the Japanese tried kamakaze subs that would essentially be piloted with a ton of explosives in it and when they got close enough kaboom... uh it didn't even come close to working.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> You still had a strong navy. More importantly you had the aircraft carriers. The largest portion of the fleet is stationed in San Fran. I belive there was an estimate that the time it take the Japanese to build one capitol ship, the Americans alreday had twelve made with plans for eight more. You guys also had time, if you played defensivly. I feel that America would be better off relation and money wise, if you play defensivly.
> 
> Compared to Japan; You guys had the resources, manpower, and idustrial capacity to win. Now it would have been a longer fight, yes, but at the end America would win. Japan doesn't have the logistic capabilities of the Allies.
> Yes I use allies because a lot of Americans seem to forget that there was a lot of countries fighting with them.
> ...


And nukes, don't forget the nukes.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> And nukes, don't forget the nukes.



And they fought against 7 countries at once :v


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Litte boy, and fat man.  (Atomic bombs btw)
> 
> Well they could have been used more appropriately but yes they also helped, along with us backstabbing them.


And later on the red scare happened, which caused the kids to be raised during then in general become the single most intolerant generation out of the one's alive, fucking up american politics for decades and not to mention the red scare also persecuted gays and labeled them communists and nowadays even still all someone has to say to give a republican a hate boner is say the word communist. *begins slowly clapping in a satirical manner*


----------



## Aetius (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Red scare; what a joke.
> Anyway the cold war in Russia is known as; America continuing to act like a little baby, countering everything with military force, and creating NATO which is an excuse for a group of _"all powerful_"  countries to get together and make an exculsive group and act like a bunch of spoiled pricks to the rest of the world.



What about the Warsaw Pact? :v


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> Funny thing is I fly Soviet flags in America just to piss people off.  Quite funny, I recommend it.
> 
> Red scare; what a joke.
> Anyway the cold war in Russia is known as; America continuing to act like a little baby, countering everything with military force, and creating NATO which is an excuse for a group of _"all powerful_"  countries to get together and make an exculsive group and act like a bunch of spoiled pricks to the rest of the world.


What a joke?  The USA is pretty much stuck waiting until the baby boomers die off of old age before any real change can be made for the better.


----------



## BRN (Sep 11, 2011)

Just leaving this here


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> What a joke?  The USA is pretty much stuck waiting until the baby boomers die off of old age before any real change can be made for the better.



And their life expectancies keep increasing thanks to the wonders of modern medicine!


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Tycho said:


> And their life expectancies keep increasing thanks to the wonders of modern medicine!


We don't have to wait for all of them to die of old age, just the enough that they won't matter politically.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> What if your impatient?
> 
> Well actually we could just a revolution to speed up the process.....



haha I wish, but nope.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> What if your impatient?
> 
> Well actually we could just a revolution to speed up the process.....



The Second American Revolution will not be televised.

Because there will never be one.


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 11, 2011)

Tycho said:


> The Second American Revolution will not be televised.
> 
> Because there will never be one.



Not unless it's possible purely through suing the crap out of people and fist-pumping from their armchairs.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> Not unless it's possible purely through suing the crap out of people and fist-pumping from their armchairs.


When did we as a nation get so lazy?  Can't even through a proper revolution anymore


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

It's not my fault I need to make some god damned money first, and also get training, etc.  But that's kinda derailing the thread.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> When did we as a nation get so lazy?  Can't even through a proper revolution anymore



People are afraid of getting labeled as seditious or treasonous.  They're afraid of being on the wrong side of the American military and police forces' guns.  They're afraid of giving up the creature comforts we have.  They're afraid of standing on the opposite side of the line from kin and friends, a revisitation of the American Civil War.  They are afraid of uncertainty.  We are all told that democratic process is how change should be affected in a civilized country like ours.  The people who are all too ready to start the revolution are the madmen we definitely do NOT want to see running things (straight into the ground).  Talk about revolution and people might think you're casting your lot in with those crazies.


----------



## Lobar (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> When did we as a nation get so lazy?  Can't even through a proper revolution anymore


 
That takes organization, and organization takes time, and who can find the time to organize when you're busy trying to stay warm and fed in the richest nation in the history of the world?

edit:





Tycho said:


> They're afraid of being on the wrong side of the *American military* and police forces' guns.



On this note, I really don't think a substantial portion of the military could be motivated to fight their own countrymen in the event of an uprising.  Nobody gets fucked harder than the troops.

The cops, however, are already used to it.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Lobar said:


> That takes organization, and organization takes time, and who can find the time to organize when you're busy trying to stay warm and fed in the richest nation in the history of the world?


The irony of the fact we're the richest is the fact the top 1% makes more than the rest combined.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> I can help you there.  What do you need to know?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nah man I have a 1tb external drive with stuff that could get me fired, you should be asking ME!  Also to the topic at hand: I bet people forgot Flight 93, Oklahoma City, etc.  Basically if it has no real political value it gets thrown away.  Like good ol' Hans, for example.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Antonin Scalia said:


> Also to the topic at hand: I bet people forgot Flight 93, Oklahoma City, etc.  Basically if it has no real political value it gets thrown away.  Like good ol' Hans, for example.


They already have.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 11, 2011)

Commie Bat said:


> So your saying I'm crazy? :V  Being on the wrong side of US supplyed weapons isn't nearly as bad as you may think.



It's not just the guns themselves.  The military and police embody the strong arm of authority in America.  It would be standing against not just authority, but WELL-ARMED authority that we have been told to demonstrate the utmost respect for.  Fear and confusion.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 11, 2011)

Tycho said:


> It's not just the guns themselves.  The military and police embody the strong arm of authority in America.  It would be standing against not just authority, but WELL-ARMED authority that we have been told to demonstrate the utmost respect for.  Fear and confusion.



HAHA we just sold our riot gear including a 40mm launcher and all the riot equipment.  If you live outside a city guess what!  Your P.D. is probably broke as fuck!  We have to buy our own AR-15's!  AH!


----------



## Lobar (Sep 11, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> The irony of the fact we're the richest is the fact the top 1% makes more than the rest combined.


 
Just for shits and giggles I took some data and did some math and found that while it is not quite this bad, it is pretty bad.  Interestingly, distribution of income is almost perfectly logarithmic in America: the top 10% makes as much as the bottom 90%, the top 1% makes as much of the bottom 9% of the top 10%, the top 0.1% makes as much as the bottom 0.9% of the top 1%, and the top 0.01% makes as much as the bottom 0.09% of the top 0.1%.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 11, 2011)

Antonin Scalia said:


> HAHA we just sold our riot gear including a 40mm launcher and all the riot equipment.  If you live outside a city guess what!  Your P.D. is probably broke as fuck!  We have to buy our own AR-15's!  AH!



And it all went to a good source!

Mubarak! :v


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 11, 2011)

Lobar said:


> Just for shits and giggles I took some data and did some math and found that while it is not quite this bad, it is pretty bad.  Interestingly, distribution of income is almost perfectly logarithmic in America: the top 10% makes as much as the bottom 90%, the top 1% makes as much of the bottom 9% of the top 10%, the top 0.1% makes as much as the bottom 0.9% of the top 1%, and the top 0.01% makes as much as the bottom 0.09% of the top 0.1%.


I really hope the bush tax cuts will actually expire and nobody pulls a political stunt.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 11, 2011)

This is coming from a guy from Jersey who knew people who died that day.

I think the WTC was a bit more impactful in every aspect as opposed to the Pentagon and the other flight brought down in PA.

The WTC was a civilian target, in the greatest city in the world, or at least the financial center of the world.  The people who died and lost their lives there were unaffiliated with the government, save for the numerous fire, police, and port authority workers who tried to save as many lives as they could there.  

Let's face it, the Pentagon was a military target, and by all accounts the Pentagon strike was no where near as severe as the WTC attack.  Of course the Pentagon attacks were devastating and it has been given its own memorial in Arlington National Cemetery in Washington D.C., but it's still no where near the sheer amount of death and destruction that was caused by the attacks on the WTC.  This is not about disrespect, just that there is a very clear difference in the severity of the attacks on that day.


----------



## moonchylde (Sep 12, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if in the future we have some commercialized way of remembering it.  Like, "call now 1-800-yo-sucker to order your rememberance baskets only $19.95".



You don't watch TV much, do you?


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Sep 12, 2011)

CAThulu said:


> I realize I'm going to be incredibly unpopular with this but I'm kind of disturbed by what I've been seeing with the reporting of the 10th anniversary of the attacks.
> 
> Has anyone, _anywhere, _seen any reference at all to the other hijacked planes?  You know, the one that hit the pentagon and the one that was brought down by the brave passengers before it could hit the White House?  I'm not trying to derail the honour that should be given to those who died in NYC ten years ago today, but there were so many others that were affected by this outside of the Twin Towers.  I also understand the importance of symbolism (fire-fighters and 2 towers makes easily recognizable icons).   It saddens me deeply however that in all this I've never seen one article, report, or blog about the rest of the victims.  It's all about the Twin Towers.  If anyone can find an article that proves me wrong, link it.  Prove me wrong!
> 
> All I'm saying is, let's remember everyone, not just New York.



Actually, I have, many times I have seen those other two planes mentioned. You forget though that the towers were the center of the attacks.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 12, 2011)

moonchylde said:


> You don't watch TV much, do you?


Sonnavabitch!  Yet another significant moment in history bastardized by monetary gain.


----------



## BRN (Sep 12, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Sonnavabitch!  Yet another significant moment in history bastardized by monetary gain.


 While I was at Auschwitz II-Birkenau, they attempted to sell me a souvenir - a yellow armband. Yes, I'm serious.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 12, 2011)

SIX said:


> While I was at Auschwitz II-Birkenau, they attempted to sell me a souvenir - a yellow armband. Yes, I'm serious.


What the fuck is wrong with people?  We're supposed to remember the loss of life and yet ironically enough the people who say this are making a profit off it.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 12, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> What the fuck is wrong with people?  We're supposed to remember the loss of life and yet ironically enough the people who say this are making a profit off it.



People just want the money, they can care less for the many people that perished.


----------



## Bliss (Sep 12, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The WTC was a civilian target, in *the greatest city in the world, or at least the financial center of the world.*


...

Baby, actually that's Tokyo. V;


----------



## Aetius (Sep 12, 2011)

Still, its one of the most important cities in the world.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 12, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> ...
> 
> Baby, actually that's Tokyo. V;


It's the largest USA city, it'd be the equivalent of seeing someone destroy a building in Helsinki with hundreds of people inside.  If you saw such a sight, wouldn't that scar you?


----------



## Bliss (Sep 12, 2011)

Don't rip your pants, I merely corrected a factual error.



CannonFodder said:


> It's the largest USA city, it'd be the equivalent of seeing someone destroy a building in Helsinki with hundreds of people inside.  If you saw such a sight, wouldn't that scar you?


I'd be relieved we are not 'above the law' and couldn't start a War On Terra. Also, there isn't a building in Helsinki that can hold hundreds of people inside. :V

The worst we have had was an ice hockey hooligan peeing on the roof of the Presidential Palace.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 12, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> I'd be relieved we are not 'above the law' and couldn't start a War On Terra. Also, there isn't a building in Helsinki that can hold hundreds of people inside. :V


Excuse me?  Even though that was sarcasm, that's a really fucked up thing to say.  I may not agree with the wars, but trivializing the lost of life with a "durr hurr my country r te better" or does living in a pussyfest pacifist country automatically entitle one to crack jokes at other countries' lose of life?


----------



## Tycho (Sep 12, 2011)

torn between /facepalm and *snicker*

ugh

decisions


----------



## Bliss (Sep 12, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> I may not agree with the wars, but trivializing the lost of life with a "durr hurr my country r te better"


My country is no better; just not powerful enough to cause havoc and thus having to count on things like kissing everybody's butt and 'responsibility'.



> Does living in a pussyfest pacifist country automatically entitle one to crack jokes at other countries' lose of life?


The word you're looking for is 'impartial'. How could one ignore the consequences of 9/11? I bear animosity because of them... but it is not only for terrorists.

And I hope we'd have more pussy. :V



Tycho said:


> torn between /facepalm and *snicker*
> 
> ugh
> 
> decisions


Why facepalm if you can have fun instead?


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 12, 2011)

I trolled Facebook on 9/11, talk about the "this is are country" crowd springing out of the woodwork.  These people can vote for things.  Like Rick Perry.  They can vote for that thing.


----------



## Xenke (Sep 12, 2011)

Antonin Scalia said:


> I trolled Facebook on 9/11



Sad life.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 12, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> My country is no better; just not powerful enough to cause havoc and thus having to count on things like kissing everybody's butt and 'responsibility'.
> The word you're looking for is 'impartial'. How could one ignore the consequences of 9/11? I bear animosity because of them... but it is not only for terrorists.


Weren't you just a few posts ago bragging about how wonderful you think your country is?  Why backtrack?  What other groups do you have animosity towards?


----------



## Aden (Sep 12, 2011)

Antonin Scalia said:


> I trolled Facebook on 9/11, talk about the "this is are country" crowd springing out of the woodwork.  These people can vote for things.  Like Rick Perry.  They can vote for that thing.



I think you need a hobby bro


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 12, 2011)

Aden said:


> I think you need a hobby bro


420 pedantic actions every day


----------



## Life And Death (Sep 12, 2011)

The reason the main focus of 9/11 is the  World Trade Center is because it had the most deaths, and the towers' collapse were unexpected.

But I do agree with you, we should honor everyone who died.


----------



## Shark_the_raptor (Sep 12, 2011)

I'd imagine it would be different if the Pentagon were destroyed like the WTCs.


----------



## Bliss (Sep 13, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Weren't you just a few posts ago bragging about how wonderful you think your country is? Why backtrack?


And I stand behind it. Hadn't guess you would be butthurt over the fact that other people (and ways) exist, US is not the only player in this world, priorities may be different and somebody might do something better - especially in case of social & political matters. (You mean this book, right?) Or is it so that only others, namely wherever you're, are entitled to success and holding power?

I also keep to my later post; power corrupts and few are immune to it.



> What other groups do you have animosity towards?


United States of America, and how it _milks everything it can out of 9/11_ to justify considering rest of the world its personal colony whose sovereignty it can insult by the cloak of 'War on Terror' and breach common contracts and international laws. And I don't have to point to the Middle-East! The attitude of "you're either with us or you are with the terrorists".

I find conciliation in that you most likely never have had to ask yourself "do my people, culture and nation have a right to self-determination?" and have hard time _pretending_ the answer is "yes". For previous generations here the 'hegemonic threat' was the Soviet Union, for my generation it may become the USA.

But probably you don't want to or can't grasp that.


----------



## CannonFodder (Sep 13, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> And I stand behind it. Hadn't guess you would be butthurt over the fact that other people (and ways) exist, US is not the only player in this world, priorities may be different and somebody might do something better - especially in case of social & political matters. (You mean this book, right?) Or is it so that only others, namely wherever you're, are entitled to success and holding power?
> I also keep to my later post; power corrupts and few are immune to it.
> United States of America, and how it _milks everything it can out of 9/11_ to justify considering rest of the world its personal colony whose sovereignty it can insult by the cloak of 'War on Terror' and breach common contracts and international laws. And I don't have to point to the Middle-East! The attitude of "you're either with us or you are with the terrorists".
> I find conciliation in that you most likely never have had to ask yourself "do my people, culture and nation have a right to self-determination?" and have hard time _pretending_ the answer is "yes". For previous generations here the 'hegemonic threat' was the Soviet Union, for my generation it may become the USA.
> But probably you don't want to or can't grasp that.


I do understand other ways of life exist, I had a feeling that you hold anti-american viewpoints and posted that to see if I was right and I was.
P.s. that quote is overused.
Also I highly doubt the European UNION will become what you seem to view it, it's a union of countries not a confederacy.  Somebody could go, "fuck you guys" and leave.  Also greece's economy caused a shit storm cause it uses the Euro, there's a reason why there's a economic theory the unholy trinity, because you can not under any circumstance prevent your country from suffering a depression.  Had the european union not for the most part used the euro then we wouldn't see a single country dragging down the whole's economy, had they not used the euro sure they would be in more financial trouble, but we wouldn't have to worry about another recession in the world's economy.
*begins slowly clapping in sarcastic manner*
Way to go folks, your notion of "The European Dream" broke very fundamental financial policies.
Also if your continent was such a utopia then explain the British national party and the Tricolour flame and the New Force and the National Social Front.
That is one thing america doesn't have, we don't have groups like those as political parties.
Also I believe in the theory of the hegemony or survival, not the ideals of what you are talking about cause historically speaking there has been far more wars than peace.  Think about it for a second, historically the most bloody of conflicts have been between old and new hegemons.  To put it in simple terms, it's king of the hill and whoever is king of the hill is king of the block.  Besides who would you rather have as the hegemon, the united states or a batshit crazy nation?  Cause SOMEBODY has to be the hegemon or everything ends up going to hell.

To finish up, yes I do think things are shitty here in america, but we have two wars going on and something like a $14 trillion deficit, if we didn't have that deficit realistically speaking things would be alot better off in america cause we have money to actually fix the majority of problems we are currently experiencing.  Before you begin spouting that "america is evil" crap I see so often, such as "we have gay marriage", we had to deal with the red scare causing the most homophobic generation alive.  Education- During Bush's presidency he slashed funding towards education by half.  Universal health care- The first president who proposed universal education in america was Nixon.  War in Afghanistan- We killed Osama, and al qaeda is a noncentralized international terrorist organization, we literally couldn't win no matter what so of course the war was going to drag on this long.  War in Iraq- Hussain killed a shit ton of his own people, seriously tell me it's wrong to stop a genocide, no seriously tell me why I'm dying to know why it's so wrong to invade a country dictated by a mass murderer.


----------



## Ricky (Sep 13, 2011)

We need MORE coverage on this shit?

You gotta be kidding...

9/11 is a fucking hole for our government to pour money into.  Don't buy into this bullshit.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Sep 13, 2011)

Gryphoneer said:


> Oh Sweet Zombie Jesus.
> 
> So that's how the end result of ten years Republican propaganda looks like...
> 
> ...



Yet there is one question that remains unanswered- why were we so successful in rebuilding Japan after the war but we could not rebuild Afghanistan. Ten years after the Pearl Harbor attacks, Japan was a US ally and some in America were calling for them to re-militarize to help fight the Communists in Korea, China, Vietnam, even Russia by way of a hypothetical Vladivostok invasion- but the Japanese never did and they probably never will. But absolutely no one in America would want a re-armed Afghanistan right now to help us combat the threat of international terrorism. They are not our allies in any respect after the attack on the Twin Towers, masterminded by Osama bin-Laden. What went wrong? If turning Japan from a dictatorship to a constitutional monarchy was possible, why can't we do the same in Afghanistan? It's not like the Japanese were any less hateful to us in the 1930's than the terrorists in Afghanistan are today and both the Japanese then and the terrorists used their religions as an excuse to attack America.


----------



## Ricky (Sep 13, 2011)

Are you serious?

Nobody in Afghanistan knows why the fuck we are there.

Neither do I.  We aren't trying to accomplish anything, we just needed someone to go after in 2001 because you can't go to war with a fucking ideal.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Sep 13, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Nobody in Afghanistan knows why the fuck we are there.
> 
> Neither do I.  We aren't trying to accomplish anything, we just needed someone to go after in 2001 because you can't go to war with a fucking ideal.



And if Osama bin-Laden was a Saudi national, why did Saudi Arabia do nothing to punish one of its own? I kind of wish we hadn't killed bin-Laden but had instead taken him alive and either given him back to the Saudis so that they could have handled him or we should have imprisoned him ourselves. Left to rot in a maximum-security jail in either Saudi Arabia or America, without the tools by which to commit suicide, he would have not become a martyr. I do appreciate the burial at sea so that his grave would not become a holy site for terrorists and if a burial at sea is a disgrace in his homeland, bin-Laden truly more than deserves it.


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 13, 2011)

DarrylWolf said:


> And if Osama bin-Laden was a Saudi national, why did Saudi Arabia do nothing to punish one of its own?



Because bin Laden _wasn't on Saudi territory on or after the time on his crimes_, perhaps? 

If a person commits a crime on foreign soil, that person is subject to the local justice system - *not* that of their own country. (Unless you're a US soldier in Japan, in which case you can be spirited away home from the country where you committed your crime until your country sees fit to return you to face trial.)

I would like to also point out that the Taleban offered to try bin Laden over 9/11 or turn him over to the US _if the US provided evidence of bin Laden's guilt_. History shows however the US decided to go to war regardless...


----------



## Bliss (Sep 13, 2011)

Edit: I just _have to_ add that your attitude abhors me. The way you defend the entitlement complex of your home and comply to its ignorance to break and violate whatever supposedly stands in its way - allies or not.

And if I note the monstrosity in this you accuse me of holding an anti-American viewpoint whilst condemning all attacks against your own? 

*You think?* _*Am I not supposed to?*_ 

Am I conversing with America's new 50 Cent Party?



CannonFodder said:


> I do understand other ways of life exist, I had a feeling that you hold anti-american viewpoints and posted that to see if I was right and I was.


Yes, yes. There's another one over there and there calling me 'anti-Chinese', 'anti-Russia', 'anti-Swedish' and one here telling me I'm 'anti-American'. I see someone jumped to the Tea Party level of arguments. 

It's worrying that sovereignty of, say, Sweden is 'anti-American' and a 'threat' to you. Should US be on our leash, then? Wouldn't that be fun and _fair?_ An ironically sad statement, holy phuck!



> Also I highly doubt the European UNION will become what you seem to view it, it's a union of countries not a confederacy.  Somebody could go, "fuck you guys" and leave.


And I want it to stay a union of countries, not a confederacy. That's for what it was created, and it doesn't need to be a confederacy.

You have little idea. Somebody couldn't "go, 'fuck you guys' and leave". That happens to be against the current contract that would need to be changed by unanimity. More so, quite a few want to get in as soon as possible; notably Turkey.



> Also greece's economy caused a shit storm cause it uses the Euro, there's a reason why there's a economic theory the unholy trinity, because you can not under any circumstance prevent your country from suffering a depression.  Had the european union not for the most part used the euro then we wouldn't see a single country dragging down the whole's economy, had they not used the euro sure they would be in more financial trouble, but we wouldn't have to worry about another recession in the world's economy.


No, not really. It is not only euro but investments there by other member countries (luckily we have little). So far no one knows for sure if it will go smoothly or crash. 

On another hand we're doing quite fine if Greece - and such as Italy and Ireland - are not taken into account. Our projected deficit for next year is the smallest in EU (0,7% to be exact) and still social benefits to single parents are to be raised and basic allowance is increased by 100 â‚¬.

And I wouldn't be pointing fingers in your position. Remember 2008?



> Also if your continent was such a utopia then explain the British national party and the Tricolour flame and the New Force and the National Social Front.


... None of those hold any political power. The latter doesn't even _exist_ anymore. They literally have no representatives save from BNP in EP, and that's two from 72 other candidates.



> That is one thing america doesn't have, we don't have groups like those as political parties.


They have to choose between two.



> Besides who would you rather have as the hegemon, the united states or a batshit crazy nation?  Cause SOMEBODY has to be the hegemon or everything ends up going to hell.


There was a thing called the Cold War. We had relatively and surprisingly civilized relations to both sides. Even a special passport to DDR. 

Are you serious? You could just say a batshit crazy nation, because what else do you have to offer? 



> Before you begin spouting that "america is evil" crap I see so often, such as "we have gay marriage", we had to deal with the red scare causing the most homophobic generation alive.  Education- During Bush's presidency he slashed funding towards education by half.  Universal health care- The first president who proposed universal education in america was Nixon.  War in Afghanistan- We killed Osama, and al qaeda is a noncentralized international terrorist organization, we literally couldn't win no matter what so of course the war was going to drag on this long.


Is this supposed to arrest my case? :V

I don't believe America is evil but a superpower like any.



> Hussain killed a shit ton of his own people, seriously tell me it's wrong to stop a genocide, no seriously tell me why I'm dying to know why it's so wrong to invade a country dictated by a mass murderer.


How many died by 'stopping a genocide'? Didn't US sharpen the knife for Hussein just before?

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 13, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> I would like to also point out that the Taleban offered to try bin Laden over 9/11 or turn him over to the US _if the US provided evidence of bin Laden's guilt_. History shows however the US decided to go to war regardless...



Considering that Bin Laden would have argued that he and his associates were doing "God's Will" do you honestly believe the Taliban would have handed him over?  Regardless of how the US handled it, do you REALLY believe they'd turn over someone who would essentially claim to be the sword of God considering the Taliban's large strict following of Islam?


----------



## Aetius (Sep 13, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> I would like to also point out that the Taleban offered to try bin Laden over 9/11 or turn him over to the US _if the US provided evidence of bin Laden's guilt_. History shows however the US decided to go to war regardless...



Hell, even the Iranians promised to give us Intelligence and maybe even attack the Taliban if we worked with them.

Nope, in thanks we decided to label them as the "Axis of Evil"


----------



## BRN (Sep 13, 2011)

CF I like you but _holy shit_ you are vastly misinformed.


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 13, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Considering that Bin Laden would have argued that he and his associates were doing "God's Will" do you honestly believe the Taliban would have handed him over?  Regardless of how the US handled it, do you REALLY believe they'd turn over someone who would essentially claim to be the sword of God considering the Taliban's large strict following of Islam?



'Course, no-one ever considered _calling the Taleban's bluff_ on their offer - it would have been a *win-win* situation for the US if they'd had the imagination for it. If the Taleban had done what they said they'd do you would have got bin Laden in *weeks *instead of a _decade_, and if they'd backed out it would have been *even *more justification for going into Afghanistan...


----------



## Jashwa (Sep 13, 2011)

The only thing is that we didn't have cold hard proof and that's why they made the offer. 

We all know this.

Why are we bickering about how the US should've just given the proof over to them and gotten Bin Laden?


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Sep 13, 2011)

Side track noise. 

Frankly, I'm not sure there's anything more that could be said about the original topic.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Sep 13, 2011)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> Side track noise.
> 
> Frankly, I'm not sure there's anything more that could be said about the original topic.


not a god damned thing


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 13, 2011)

NYPD FDNY PANY Forever.


----------



## virus (Sep 14, 2011)

The one sided focus, is the delusion. The delusion, the same government has been suppressing its people with for over 100 years now. Everything that has happened in every major war was one sided and caused from the same party of people. The bankers, guess who supplied oil to the nazi's in world war 2? America. There's business, a booming business in war. Even if they have to mock one up.


Americas most terrible tragedy that has ever happened is the civil war, AMERICANS. Fighting EACH OTHER, nearly POINT BLANK. Yet it's considered some central park sideshow. It's truly America's factual worst battle.

Everything that happened after that is caused from manipulation and pushed cards. Don't believe me? look it up. All the sources exist.


----------



## Aetius (Sep 14, 2011)

virus said:


> The one sided focus, is the delusion. The delusion, the same government has been suppressing its people with for over 100 years now. Everything that has happened in every major war was one sided and caused from the same party of people. The bankers, guess who supplied oil to the nazi's in world war 2? America. There's business, a booming business in war. Even if they have to mock one up.
> 
> 
> Americas most terrible tragedy that has ever happened is the civil war, AMERICANS. Fighting EACH OTHER, nearly POINT BLANK. Yet it's considered some central park sideshow. It's truly America's factual worst battle.
> ...



Inb4 This is the Jews :V


----------



## Bliss (Sep 14, 2011)

Crusader Mike said:


> Inb4 This is the Jews :V


Alas, we're going down the road of how any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism.

Inb4 'right to defend itself (from a scary suicide bomber!)'.


----------



## Commiecomrade (Sep 15, 2011)

People like to focus on the ones with the most deaths. The Twin Towers had the most deaths by far.

It's weird because I live relatively close to Flight 93's crash site, but I don't hear a word about it.


----------



## Ricky (Sep 15, 2011)

I don't think it was "just for money." I think there are a bunch of reasons. The biggest one, IMO was George Bush Jr. was JUST in office and let's face it.  That guy hadn't a clue. He was a puppet throughout his whole presidency.

I was in boot camp during 9/11.  We were on the rifle range and at first we thought they were fucking with us. My parents sent me the paper sometimes and it talked about how we were going to war and going to invade Afghanistan. Right away I knew what happened. GWB was being told they need to _do something_ to not lose respect from the people, yadda, yadda...  We were trying to go to war with an ideal and that doesn't make much sense. I think that was the BIGGEST factor, but yes -- war brings money to some people and I'm sure that was motivation for staying there.

Terrorism was in the news every day, on the front page for nearly TWO FUCKING YEARS and it's also obvious why. People who are afraid are more likely to throw money at you.  Out of this whole thing came the Department of Homeland Security who were up to some real sketchy shit, at first. I read on Cryptome about them tailing politicians, and they were also in the news for raiding a toy store apparently investigating patent fraud. 10 years later and we're STILL hearing about terrorism all the time, and getting groped in airport security lines when there hasn't been ONE successful terrorist attack to the US since 9/11.

People are apparently OK with this, though.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Sep 15, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> Alas, we're going down the road of how any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism.
> 
> Inb4 'right to defend itself (from a scary suicide bomber!)'.



If you think that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, then you should look at how the nations surrounding Israel feel about their neighbor- and by extension, how they feel about the US, Britain, pretty much the entire Western world. All of Israel's neighbors are Muslim and all hate her immeasurably, which contradicts the Quranic injunction that the Jews are "People of the Book" and should be given respect. Islam is predicated on a dichotomy between the Dar al-Islam, which are Islamic countries run by a theocratic version of Islam (liberal Muslim countries like Turkey, India, and Indonesia are not "dar-al Islam"), and the Dar-al Harb, the "Dwelling-Place of Unrest" which is the entire rest of the world that is not yet subjugated by Islam and that does not follow Shariah law. Even nations where Muslims are offered protection and a chance to practice their religion in peace like America, Canada, and Britain are "dar al-Harb" so in essence Muslim pacifists are as much a target of the extremists as non-Muslims are. Those who would follow this extremist brand of Islam would like to see the entire world converted to Islam.


----------



## Bliss (Sep 15, 2011)

DarrylWolf said:


> If you think that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism


No, I am ridiculing this lobby.



> Muslim countries like India


... India is not and has never been a Muslim country.


----------



## Xenke (Sep 15, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> ... India is not and has never been a Muslim country.



Well, 10% of all Muslims live in India... (ranked 3rd)

EDIT: But I know what your point is.


----------



## Bliss (Sep 15, 2011)

^ I thought you were to pretend I don't exist. :V


----------



## Xenke (Sep 15, 2011)

Lizzie said:


> ^ I thought you were to pretend I don't exist. :V



That was, like, eons ago. I have the memory of goldfish, so to speak.

Besides, I am grudge-less. :V


----------

