# Metal for Beginners?



## Furcade (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm pretty familiar with a lot of genres of music, with the notable exception of metal. As part of a quest of mine to become a better musician, I'm trying to broaden my appreciation of music, and this involves getting into a bit of metal. For reference, this is the "heaviest" song that lives on my mp3 player at the moment:

[video=youtube;t59vYoP6LkY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t59vYoP6LkY[/video]

Anyway, seeing as a lot of you guys appear to be connoisseurs of the various strains of metal, I figured I'd ask you two questions: do you recommend any particular types/albums/artists for newcomers to the world of metal, and what are your all-time favourite metal albums/artists?


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## Avlenna (Jan 9, 2013)

Blind Guardian is my favorite.  There's also Megadeth, Metallica, and Dragon Force on my most listened to.
If you want some lighter metal, Bullet For My Valentine and Atreyu are good too.  Some may disagree, but these are what I recommend.


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## Zaraphayx (Jan 9, 2013)

There is a different genre of metal for every dozen bands that exist these days.

If you want a good introduction to metal I'd suggest bands like Black Sabbath or Judas Priest as they were among the most popular groups that defined the genre when it first started appearing; Iron Maiden, Megadeth, and Metallica come to mind too.

My personal tastes change all the time, but Tarot, Borknagar, and Arcturus have been pretty consistent favorites of mine, and tend towards progressive styles.


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## Namba (Jan 9, 2013)

[video=youtube;4jF7E77jUzc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jF7E77jUzc[/video]

You need some Mastodon in your collection, man.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 9, 2013)

Some pretty solid metal:
Heavy:
Metallica, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Slayer
Death:
Morbid Angel, Kataklysm, Amon Amarth, Vehemence, Aeon, Arch Enemy, Bloodbath, Decapitated (skip 2010/2011 album), Grimfist, Six Feet Under, Vader, At The Gates
Black (&blackened death):
Dark Tranquility, Vesania, Tvangeste, Graveworm, Cradle of Filth (pre-2008)

Can't go wrong with Rammstein, and a couple other bands like: AC/DC, Fear Factory, Devildriver, Samael, Dio, Twisted Sister, and all that are pretty good too, but a lot of hit and miss.


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## Conker (Jan 9, 2013)

I'd hit up Five Finger Death Punch. I dunno if "beginner" is the right word, but I hear em on the radio, meaning they are mainstream friendly. Ivan has a gorgeous voice when he isn't screaming, so that's also a plus.


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## Namba (Jan 9, 2013)

Conker said:


> I'd hit up Five Finger Death Punch. I dunno if "beginner" is the right word, but I hear em on the radio, meaning they are mainstream friendly. Ivan has a gorgeous voice when he isn't screaming, so that's also a plus.



Oh man, would strongly recommend starting off with them come to think of it.


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## Tigercougar (Jan 10, 2013)

The only metallish stuff I've ever cared for was on the soundtrack to the original Matrix movie.


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## Ikrit (Jan 10, 2013)

Blind Guardian and Gamma Ray are my favorite power metal bands.

System of a Down a completely unique experience, wish they made more music.

Dream Theater is a great progressive metal band. long and mild.


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## GhostWolf (Jan 10, 2013)

Okay maybe it's just me but every time I think of metal I remember this...hey even if you don't like metal you will absolutely love this.

[video=youtube;SG7QbiPtH9M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG7QbiPtH9M[/video]


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 10, 2013)

A good way to broaden your tastes into metal would be to start with bands that are closer to heavy rock than what we call "metal" these days. Go with stuff like Black Sabbath to begin with, then go onto e.g. Iron Maiden, old Metallica, Slayer, and see where it leads, slowly going into the slightly more obscure and niche stuff (which are excellent once you've got an ear for it).

Note that bands like Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, and Rammstein are in the not-metal-but-kind-of-sound-like-it genre. Rule of thumb is that if it's internationally popular it's probably not "real" metal, as hispter-ish/elitist as that sounds. You may like them though.

Also if you're looking for new bands you can always check the metal megathread.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh that's easy.  The heaviest metal is plutonium, then uranium and lead.  If that's not your thing and just want some light metal try lithium.  Personally I like neodymium the most.


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## Heliophobic (Jan 10, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Oh that's easy.  The heaviest metal is plutonium, then uranium and lead.  If that's not your thing and just want some light metal try lithium.  Personally I like neodymium the most.



L.O.L.



1 g3t 1t bEcuz im a N3rd.

Epic.


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## Zydrate Junkie (Jan 10, 2013)

Start with some of the classics, and then work your way from there.
If you have any friends who are into metal just get them to throw a few songs at you, and put a little bit of a lot of bands on your mp3 player and just shuffle through, deciding which ones you like.


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## Fernin (Jan 10, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Oh that's easy.  The heaviest metal is plutonium, then uranium and lead.  If that's not your thing and just want some light metal try lithium.  Personally I like neodymium the most.



Greatest post on this forum, ever. XD


Anyways, Rammstein and Rob Zombie are pretty good starting places as well. As follows.

[yt]BvsMPOfblfg[/yt]

This is in the running for quite possibly being my favorite song ever.
[yt]QcKxMoJB4L0[/yt]

Clocking in at 11,472 plays in itunes...
[yt]EqQuihD0hoI[/yt]

All the following are rammstein songs, and everyone had more than 7k plays in itunes...

Ich Will (I Want)
[yt]f4K6ZxDwi34[/yt]

Sonne (Sun)
[yt]kIBeYoP9Wi0[/yt]

Rosenrot (Rose-Red)
[yt]cz66xYVtST0[/yt]

Dalai Lama
[yt]xt-hBznuyfE[/yt]

Mein Teil (My Part)
[yt]sJ3kVtd2CCA[/yt]


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## Fernin (Jan 10, 2013)

Sorry for the double post, but it's also occured to me Oomph is also a really good starting point.

Ready or Not (I'm Coming)
[yt]JiiDHUkNL2c[/yt]

God is a Popstar
[yt]3BpwImS4yyY[/yt]

Labyrinth (Probably Oomph's best known song, sadly there's no decent vid of the english version)
[yt]dhmG7VXDG1Q[/yt]

True Beauty is so Painful
[yt]obrReS4UCx0[/yt]


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## VGmaster9 (Jan 10, 2013)

Conker said:


> I'd hit up Five Finger Death Punch. I dunno if "beginner" is the right word, but I hear em on the radio, meaning they are mainstream friendly. Ivan has a gorgeous voice when he isn't screaming, so that's also a plus.



Pretty much this.

Also, more traditional bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motorhead, and Black Sabbath.


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## Ansitru (Jan 10, 2013)

Fernin said:


> Sorry for the double post, but it's also occured to me Oomph is also a really good starting point.



OOMPH! should really be listened to in German. Their translations are .... eh. Not so good.
OP: if you're into folk-metal, you may like Eluveitie, Turisas, Heidenvolk, Alestorm and related bands.

There's also Arkona, Equilibrium and Sabaton (the last one is more power metal-ish).
And of course there are still bands like Children Of Bodom, Slipknot, Parkway Drive, Nightwish and the likes.

Eluveitie - "Luxtos"
[YT]3pdGLsFjRSM[/YT]

Heidenvolk - "Nehallenia"
[YT]KBpDom4QWHE[/YT]

Equilibrium - "Blut Im Auge"
[YT]Yom8nNqmxvQ[/YT]

Alestorm - "Sunk'n Norwegian"
[YT]IUckT7ERVP8[/YT]

Sabaton - "Swedish Pagans"
[YT]DcAhDcqNmlQ[/YT]


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## Furcade (Jan 10, 2013)

Well, thank you all for the excellent suggestions! 

I hit up Five Finger Death Punch first, and it sounds like a good starting point, indeed. Blind Guardian is also pretty cool.
I went to Dream Theater . I'm a fan of Pink Floyd, Mike Oldfield, Genesis etc. (progressive rock bands) so that's a good entry point, too. Also the suggestion of starting with classics was a good one, because older metal is substantially easier to listen to from the perspective of the metal inductee.



			
				Gibby said:
			
		

> Note that bands like Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, and Rammstein are in the not-metal-but-kind-of-sound-like-it genre.



Yeah, I noticed that a bunch of the bands I looked at were classified as rock on iTunes. So in your opinion, what defines "real" metal? Also does Turisas count as real metal?



			
				CannonFodder said:
			
		

> Oh that's easy.  The heaviest metal is plutonium, then uranium and lead.   If that's not your thing and just want some light metal try lithium.   Personally I like neodymium the most.



Heh.

*EDIT*: Yeah, folk metal's pretty cool.


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## Ansitru (Jan 10, 2013)

Furcade said:


> Yeah, I noticed that a bunch of the bands I looked at were classified as rock on iTunes. So in your opinion, what defines "real" metal? Also does Turisas count as real metal?



They call it "battle metal" themselves, but I think it still classifies under folk-metal.

[YT]ogarObiFgvI[/YT]


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## Symlus (Jan 10, 2013)

@FurCade: The metal as defined by iTunes is death and screamo. Stuff to make your ears bleed. Try some System Of A Down, Slipknot, Tool (Some classify it as alt, but I see it as metal, whatever.), Anthrax, Dio, Judas Priest, etc. You need more, I'll send you some more artists. Sorry it's disorganized.


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## Vukasin (Jan 10, 2013)

Gibby said:


> Note that bands like Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, and Rammstein are in the not-metal-but-kind-of-sound-like-it genre.


They fall into the Nu Metal category, which is still a metal sub genre.



Gibby said:


> Rule of thumb is that if it's internationally popular it's probably not "real" metal, as hispter-ish/elitist as that sounds


That would mean bands like Megadeth (thrash metal), Metallica (thrash metal), Iron Maiden (New Wave of British Heavy Metal), Pantera (Groove metal) ect. aren't metal....

Anyway, back on topic, good bands to start with would definitely be the earlier metal bands that people have suggested already. I would also say power metal is good to start with because they still use clean vocals.

I'll post Orden Ogan. They are a German power metal band that mixes in progessive and folk elements.
[YT]Ir_BVxBz5do[/YT]

And since you said you're a fan of progressive rock, here is a progressive metal band; Dream Theater
[YT]pTwk1UuGJIA[/YT]


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## Fernin (Jan 11, 2013)

The problem with Dream Theater is only one in 15 of their songs is good, the rest are utter shit. That one in 15 it utterly amazing though...


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## Tybis (Jan 11, 2013)

The single thing that expanded my view of the world of rock the most was actually the video game Brutal Legend. It has a really diverse, generally great soundtrack by tons of bands. Through that game alone, I learned the difference between those little sub-genres, and discovered that I enjoy melodic and industrial metal.

It was pretty fun too. Seriously, rent that game if you see it. 

Current favorite band - The Bunny The Bear

[video=youtube;NJHZ0JKDlIQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJHZ0JKDlIQ[/video]


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## Vukasin (Jan 11, 2013)

Fernin said:


> The problem with Dream Theater is only one in 15 of their songs is good, the rest are utter shit. That one in 15 it utterly amazing though...


That would be your opinion, not a "problem" with the band...


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## Fernin (Jan 11, 2013)

Vukasin said:


> That would be your opinion, not a "problem" with the band...



Considering even a great number of their fanbase feels about the same. X3


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## Furcade (Jan 11, 2013)

@Lev1athan: Thanks, that's an awesome, totally-not-disorganised list.
@Vukasin: Thank you also.
@Tybis: Yes, Brutal Legend, I didn't even think of that! Brilliant, thanks


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## Conker (Jan 11, 2013)

Gibby said:


> Note that bands like Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, and Rammstein are in the not-metal-but-kind-of-sound-like-it genre. Rule of thumb is that if it's internationally popular it's probably not "real" metal, as hispter-ish/elitist as that sounds. You may like them though.


This is my problem with bring up metal at all. I find posts like this. "Oh, that's popular? It can't be metal then." It's such a stupid thing to say :[ 

My general rule of thumb is if I put the CD in my computer and iTunes loads it up with "metal" as the genre, then it's metal. That's the intent of the producers, publishers, and the artists at any rate, and I'll take it.


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## Zaraphayx (Jan 11, 2013)

Conker said:


> This is my problem with bring up metal at all. I find posts like this. "Oh, that's popular? It can't be metal then." It's such a stupid thing to say :[
> 
> My general rule of thumb is if I put the CD in my computer and iTunes loads it up with "metal" as the genre, then it's metal. That's the intent of the producers, publishers, and the artists at any rate, and I'll take it.



It's pretty much a rule that Metalheads are some of the biggest faggoty fanboys ever.


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## Vukasin (Jan 11, 2013)

Fernin said:


> Considering even a great number of their fanbase feels about the same. X3


A great number of their fanbase also feel the opposite.



Conker said:


> My general rule of thumb is if I put the CD in my computer and iTunes loads it up with "metal" as the genre, then it's metal. That's the intent of the producers, publishers, and the artists at any rate, and I'll take it.


A lot of my metal stuff still shows up as "rock" on itunes.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 11, 2013)

Conker said:


> This is my problem with bring up metal at all. I find posts like this. "Oh, that's popular? It can't be metal then." It's such a stupid thing to say :[
> 
> My general rule of thumb is if I put the CD in my computer and iTunes loads it up with "metal" as the genre, then it's metal. That's the intent of the producers, publishers, and the artists at any rate, and I'll take it.



That's the problem with metal, it's really hard to categorise.

If a song has a calm interlude or a lot of breakdowns, people will be flipping their shit. Then they always change their minds about what is and is not metal. Then if it is indeed metal and not rock/teen deathcore band, then there's the real bumfrustration of deciding what genre of metal it actually _is._

Metal fandumb is pretty arsebackwards.


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## Conker (Jan 11, 2013)

Gibby said:


> That's the problem with metal, it's really hard to categorise.
> 
> If a song has a calm interlude or a lot of breakdowns, people will be flipping their shit. Then they always change their minds about what is and is not metal. Then if it is indeed metal and not rock/teen deathcore band, then there's the real bumfrustration of deciding what genre of metal it actually _is._
> 
> Metal fandumb is pretty arsebackwards.


Yeah. It is assbackwards. I just go by what's on the metadata of the CD. If it says it's metal, then fuck it, it's metal. If not, then it isn't. It's not that big of a thing, but I like to say I'm a fan of metal, then I list bands and metalfags are like "THOSE ARENT METAL BECAUSE THEY ARE POPULAR"

So I just tell em Nickelback is metal to piss em off, and that works EVERY SINGLE TIME


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 12, 2013)

Gibby said:


> That's the problem with metal, it's really hard to categorise.
> 
> If a song has a calm interlude or a lot of breakdowns, people will be flipping their shit. Then they always change their minds about what is and is not metal. Then if it is indeed metal and not rock/teen deathcore band, then there's the real bumfrustration of deciding what genre of metal it actually _is._
> 
> Metal fandumb is pretty arsebackwards.



It's _really_ not that hard to categorize. You can determine which sub-genre it is like 99% of the time by the vocalist and the lyrics - Obviously there is a bit of in-knowledge to be had, because differentiating between things like low-register screaming with pig squeals versus guttural growls isn't exactly common knowledge. Breakdowns and interludes have little to do with genre, they're used in a variety of ways across multiple sub-genres.

Though I do hate people equate popularity with how 'metal' a band is. There's a lot of great indie metal bands, and a lot of great mainstream metal bands, it doesn't change the genre >_> though some bands actually do change through genres, like Job for a Cowboy. From screamo, to deathcore, to deathcore-ish metal, to political death metal.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 12, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> It's _really_ not that hard to categorize. You can determine which sub-genre it is like 99% of the time by the vocalist and the lyrics - Obviously there is a bit of in-knowledge to be had, because differentiating between things like low-register screaming with pig squeals versus guttural growls isn't exactly common knowledge. Breakdowns and interludes have little to do with genre, they're used in a variety of ways across multiple sub-genres.
> 
> Though I do hate people equate popularity with how 'metal' a band is. There's a lot of great indie metal bands, and a lot of great mainstream metal bands, it doesn't change the genre >_> though some bands actually do change through genres, like Job for a Cowboy. From screamo, to deathcore, to deathcore-ish metal, to political death metal.



The hard part is that on a metal forum 99% of others are going to find some reason to disagree with you and affirm that it's different to what you're certain it is.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 12, 2013)

Gibby said:


> The hard part is that on a metal forum 99% of others are going to find some reason to disagree with you and affirm that it's different to what you're certain it is.



Well if they try to go after breakdowns and interludes, make them look at Suffocation, At the Gates, Dark Tranquility, Graveworm, and a bunch of other real well known extreme metal bands that use them >_>


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 12, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Well if they try to go after breakdowns and interludes, make them look at Suffocation, At the Gates, Dark Tranquility, Graveworm, and a bunch of other real well known extreme metal bands that use them >_>



I know, right?

I think it's the _overuse_ of breakdowns that gets them mad, though. I can't see what they have against interludes, on the other hand.

Silly metal people.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 12, 2013)

Gibby said:


> I know, right?
> 
> I think it's the _overuse_ of breakdowns that gets them mad, though. I can't see what they have against interludes, on the other hand.
> 
> Silly metal people.



Interludes are especially nice in black metal, you get a lot of atmospheric plucking and odd percussion usage, or keyboardist playing a long drawn-out tune to some overlaid  ambient noises for like a minute, and then it fwooooshes back in and you can headbang again. It's like, "here, lets all take a quick drink, because I'll be playing for another 5 minutes" xD


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## Em1l (Jan 12, 2013)

Well, if you like Karnivool, you may like progressive metal such as Periphery, Tesseract, Monuments, Textures, Meshuggah, Circles ect.  Here ya go:[video=youtube;spCmStMOiHE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCmStMOiHE[/video](Tesseract)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4h0rlWX5lM
(Monuments)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7m3K7IrBiE
(Textures)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSYNhfkNGco
(Meshuggah)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9LpMZuBEMk
(Circles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0RmTihVhI


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## Llamapotamus (Jan 13, 2013)

Conker said:


> So I just tell em Nickelback is metal to piss em off, and that works EVERY SINGLE TIME



Pretty fuckin hilarious.
Anyway, I've started listening to Widek recently. He's classified as metal on iTunes, so that counts for me, being not-picky and all...
Here's a short album he made:
[video=youtube_share;M7ODqHKb2Tw]http://youtu.be/M7ODqHKb2Tw[/video]

I also just realized 2 bands that I think of as metal haven't been listed yet, Mudvayne and Breaking Benjamin. Maybe I'm wrong?


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 13, 2013)

Llamapotamus said:


> I also just realized 2 bands that I think of as metal haven't been listed yet, Mudvayne and Breaking Benjamin. Maybe I'm wrong?



'cause they aren't.

They're one-hit wonder mallcore.


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## Conker (Jan 13, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> 'cause they aren't.
> 
> They're one-hit wonder mallcore.


What is this "mallcore" of which people speak? I've heard FFDP described as such as well. It's clearly an insult, but it doesn't make any fucking sense as far as I'm concerned.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 13, 2013)

Conker said:


> What is this "mallcore" of which people speak? I've heard FFDP described as such as well. It's clearly an insult, but it doesn't make any fucking sense as far as I'm concerned.



It usually refers to bands you'll find shirts and albums at Hot Topic, Spencers, other 'mall' stores non-nostalgically. It's an insult within the metal community <_<


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## Conker (Jan 13, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> It usually refers to bands you'll find shirts and albums at Hot Topic, Spencers, other 'mall' stores non-nostalgically. It's an insult within the metal community <_<


Makes finding band shirts a fuckload easier if they are in Hot Topic. Saves me going to websites and then paying for shipping/handling and then waiting five to seven business days. I know the metal community likes to associate "popular" with "bad" or "not metal" but in this case, "popular" becomes "efficient."


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## Furcade (Jan 13, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> It usually refers to bands you'll find shirts and albums at Hot Topic, Spencers, other 'mall' stores non-nostalgically. It's an insult within the metal community <_<



I would expect such elitism from the baroque or jazz enthusiast community, _maybe._ But from metal? Why? Breaking Benjamin is beyond what I would call "rock", which makes it metal to me. Same with Rammstein, Slipknot, Karnivool etc etc. Metal is a genre, not a popularity level.

Also, Breaking Benjamin aren't one-hit wonders (Blow Me Away, Diary of Jane, Breath, I Will Not Bow). And I have never seen merchandise for them. And I've never even heard of Mudvayne.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 13, 2013)

Conker said:


> Makes finding band shirts a fuckload easier if they are in Hot Topic. Saves me going to websites and then paying for shipping/handling and then waiting five to seven business days. I know the metal community likes to associate "popular" with "bad" or "not metal" but in this case, "popular" becomes "efficient."



Well Hot Topic tends to ONLY carry metal/deathcore, Green Day, ICP, or Nu-Metal shirts - Most of which are considered 'Mallcore' bands. Like it or lump it *shrug*. I hit up Hot Topic myself, because they are fairly exclusive at carrying Adventure Time shirts, so it's not like HT is a bad store. 

The metal community is a lot like others, and there tend to be extremists, buuuut...most of them don't give a fuck between indie and mainstream - Just as long as it's metal.



Furcade said:


> I would expect such elitism from the baroque or jazz enthusiast community, _maybe._  But from metal? Why? Breaking Benjamin is beyond what I would call  "rock", which makes it metal to me. Same with Rammstein, Slipknot,  Karnivool etc etc. Metal is a genre, not a popularity level.
> 
> Also, Breaking Benjamin aren't one-hit wonders (Blow Me Away, Diary of  Jane, Breath, I Will Not Bow). And I have never seen merchandise for  them. And I've never even heard of Mudvayne.




I guess if "mostly true" is considered elitism, then sure, whatever. 

I haven't listened to Breaking Benjamin in like 5 years, but last I heard them, it was pretty much down the middle rock, and I don't listen to the local 'modern' rock station, but I see BB's shirts in Hot Topic a lot - So there ya go.

Rammstein is Industrial metal, Slipknot is like the king of Nu metal, and I've never heard of Karnivool, so *shrug*. 

Technically metal is a sub-genre under rock, but even if we were to consider it a stand-alone genre, nu metal and -core sub-genres are still on the fringe. It has nothing to do with popularity, as I've said like half a dozen times now, it has to do with (mostly) vocals and lyrics, though various instruments can also change the genre (or tack on a prefix like Symphonic)


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## Fernin (Jan 13, 2013)

I disagree, Hot Topic IS a bad store, it's a shadow of what it once was.


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## Conker (Jan 13, 2013)

Fernin said:


> I disagree, Hot Topic IS a bad store, it's a shadow of what it once was.


Not a fan of it either, and I feel really fucking awkward going into it. But, they had Godsmack tshirts when I needed one, and so it served its purpose. They also have pony merch, though I haven't purchased any of that.


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## Furcade (Jan 14, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Technically metal is a sub-genre under rock.



Oh right. I was looking at it as rock in one corner and metal in the other.


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## Fernin (Jan 14, 2013)

Conker said:


> Not a fan of it either, and I feel really fucking awkward going into it. But, they had Godsmack tshirts when I needed one, and so it served its purpose. They also have pony merch, though I haven't purchased any of that.



My god, Hot Topic has MLP crap now? Wow, they really are scraping the bottom of the barrel these days. -_-


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## Vukasin (Jan 14, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> as I've said like half a dozen times now, it has to do with (mostly) vocals and lyrics


If you mean that's what differentiates genres then I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Lyrics have nothing to do with it, and vocals have little to do with it. The instrumentation is what distinguishes between the different metal genres.


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## Furcade (Jan 14, 2013)

Vukasin said:


> The instrumentation is what distinguishes between the different metal genres.



I disagree again, mostly. While instrumentation is very important in determining the genre of a piece, vocal style (which I consider to be a facet of instrumentation) and lyrical content (particularly the thematic aspect of that) are also dependent on genre to a large extent, and can be used to categorise a piece or artist/group.


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## Vukasin (Jan 14, 2013)

Furcade said:


> I disagree again, mostly. While instrumentation is very important in determining the genre of a piece, vocal style (which I consider to be a facet of instrumentation) and lyrical content (particularly the thematic aspect of that) are also dependent on genre to a large extent, and can be used to categorise a piece or artist/group.


I can see why you would say vocal style plays a large factor (which I can agree with, but I still say instrumentation plays a much larger role), but I don't understand why you say lyrical content is dependent on the genre. 

If you have death metal instrumentation/growling but have lyrics about sunshine and rainbows does that mean it's not death metal? No, of course not. Sure, it may be odd, but we're not just going to make a whole other sub genre based on death metal about happy things. That's just silly. Your lyrics can be about anything you want, but it's the instrumentation and vocal style that decides the genre.

Plus, when you listen to instrumental metal songs it's very easy to categorize them because each different sub genre of metal has distinctive instrumentation.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 15, 2013)

Vukasin said:


> If you mean that's what differentiates genres then I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Lyrics have nothing to do with it, and vocals have little to do with it. The instrumentation is what distinguishes between the different metal genres.



Well like I said way up above, the lyrics typically follow the type of vocals they're doing and I sorta just started saying lyrics matter, but I was drunk at that point :v

Instrumentation is...kinda, but you can find a lot of cross-over between say, black and death metal, when it comes to instruments. Lyrical content can be similar too, but they both go in different directions (usually) with the subject matter (like death or dying). I do see what you're saying though, but I do think vocals pretty much change the main sub-genre (black, death, power, folk, etc.) It just gets a lot harder to break down when you get to sub-sub genres.


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## Furcade (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't think there are any metal songs about falling in love by a Parisian sunset. If you actually look at genre and subgenre definitions in books and stuff, it usually indicates the kind of lyrics you'd expect to find.

And maybe orchestration was a better word than instrumentation. Y'know, the kinds of patterns you see being played on guitars, the kind of drum beats you'd expect, etc.


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## Vukasin (Jan 15, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Instrumentation is...kinda, but you can find a lot of cross-over between say, black and death metal, when it comes to instruments. Lyrical content can be similar too, but they both go in different directions (usually) with the subject matter (like death or dying). I do see what you're saying though, but I do think vocals pretty much change the main sub-genre (black, death, power, folk, etc.) It just gets a lot harder to break down when you get to sub-sub genres.


I mean that the way the instruments are played is what defines the genres, not what instruments are used. It's very difficult to tell between, lets say, black metal, death metal, and folk metal vocals because they all pretty much use the same style. It's the way the music is played that differentiates them.

Example:
Black Metal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF3wagWwHjM
Death Metal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KFObx3n2K0
Folk Metal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb8WGig0MLU

All the vocals sound very similar, and really, you could swap the vocalist in each song and they would still fit well with any of the other 2 bands. The instrumentals for these songs, however, are all very different from each other and it's really easy to tell which songs belong in which genres.

The only time it really gets confusing is when you have a genre like blackened death metal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5VMjgSE8M



Furcade said:


> I don't think there are any metal songs about falling in love by a Parisian sunset.


I guess you haven't heard very much power metal, haha.



Furcade said:


> And maybe orchestration was a better word than instrumentation. Y'know, the kinds of patterns you see being played on guitars, the kind of drum beats you'd expect, etc.


orchestration and instrumentation are synonyms. you could use either one


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 15, 2013)

Vukasin said:


> I mean that the way the instruments are played is what defines the genres, not what instruments are used. It's very difficult to tell between, lets say, black metal, death metal, and folk metal vocals because they all pretty much use the same style. It's the way the music is played that differentiates them.
> 
> Example:
> Black Metal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF3wagWwHjM
> ...



It's not that hard to tell the difference between black, death, and folk. Folk is a lot more sing-songy even with similar vocals to death, death metal uses growls and lower tones, black metal uses shrieks and more upper tones. Dimmu Borgir is like...symphonic blackened death metal, so yeah, it's going to be hard to tell the difference when the band is meshing the genres together. Also: check older Decapitated, the newer vocalist sucks balls and sounds way different. New drummer is pretty damn awesome though.

Here's a better comparison:
Black metal: http://youtu.be/47YkClJ-kII?t=2m11s
Death metal: http://youtu.be/0MS--CCNJnA?t=45s
Folk metal: http://youtu.be/OIc4VHxU7iM?t=42s (enjoy this sick ass video btw)
I'll give ya folk metal though, they share vocals along side death metal, but the way it flows is way different.

For a bit more modern though:
Black: http://youtu.be/jcInb-7TOak?t=56s
("Northern hyperblast") Death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKBneCf-ruw

Though there is a stark difference on the instrumentation as well, despite comprising of mostly the same instruments v: so maybe I'm a bit wrong on that.


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## Vukasin (Jan 15, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> It's not that hard to tell the difference between black, death, and folk.


Yeah, that's what I mean. The way the instruments are played, and how the vocals are sung (rather than just how they sound) all make each genre different.



Lastdirewolf said:


> Also: check older Decapitated, the newer vocalist sucks balls and sounds way different.



I know, but I still really dig their new vocalist :c




Lastdirewolf said:


> I'll give ya folk metal though, they share vocals along side death metal, but the way it flows is way different.



I think I have misunderstood your argument. I thought you meant how vocals sound differentiates sub genres, not how the vocals are done/how they flow.




Lastdirewolf said:


> For a bit more modern though:
> Black: http://youtu.be/jcInb-7TOak?t=56s
> ("Northern hyperblast") Death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKBneCf-ruw


Hot damn, these songs are pretty sick!


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 16, 2013)

Vukasin said:


> I know, but I still really dig their new vocalist :c
> 
> 
> I think I have misunderstood your argument. I thought you meant how vocals sound differentiates sub genres, not how the vocals are done/how they flow.
> ...



Blegh, the new vocalist is no match for Sauron. He's too raspy and incomprehensible, the lyrics suck too. Hard to beat Krim as a drummer though, but Pawel performed for Vader, so I know he's got some chops. 

Though my argument encompasses how they differentiate sub-genres AND how they flow - That's why I never specified, because it was just all-encompassing. 

Also: Yeah, Kataklysm is one of my favourite death metal acts, and Agathodaimon is hit-and-miss, but pretty good overall.


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## Vukasin (Jan 16, 2013)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Blegh, the new vocalist is no match for Sauron. He's too raspy and incomprehensible, the lyrics suck too. Hard to beat Krim as a drummer though, but Pawel performed for Vader, so I know he's got some chops.


It's best to just take the new vocalist for what he is rather than comparing him to Sauron. It will make him, and Decapitateds new music, a lot easier to enjoy.

Their production quality has become a lot better though, so that's a plus.


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## Captain Howdy (Jan 16, 2013)

Vukasin said:


> It's best to just take the new vocalist for what he is rather than comparing him to Sauron. It will make him, and Decapitateds new music, a lot easier to enjoy.
> 
> Their production quality has become a lot better though, so that's a plus.



Well read the rest of my post, I stated he was "too raspy and incomprehensible" (which is saying a lot for death metal), along with the lyrics sucking. I don't enjoy him, nor his work - With or without comparison to Sauron. I can enjoy the music well enough, just minus the new vox and we're good to go.


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