# FA Rules Revisions



## Dragoneer (Dec 28, 2005)

Rules changes effective as of today. The TOS will be updated soon to further reflect these changes.

*Screenshots*
Screenshots will no longer be allowed to be posted to FurAffinity _unless _they abide by the following guidelines:
Users _may not_ repost screenshots from TV shows, movies or games under any circumstances unless the image contain user-created content (avatars, maps, etc.) or follow  Fair Use copyright guidelines. Users must cite the user-created content in the screenshot.

Raw screenshots from games will be deleted without notification. If the user does not cite their user-created content in description the screenshot will be deleted. Parody images are allowed provided the abide by the Fair Use rules.

*Desktop Images*
Users may post screenshots of their desktops so long as they follow Fair Use guidelines. Be advised that desktop screenshots which contain art or images created by other artists may be subject to deletion if requested by the artist of that image.

Desktop images may, unlike screenshots, contain scenes from TV shows, movies or games with limitations. Users may only upload one desktop screenshot at a time.

*Photographs*
Users may not upload photos of real people in explicit and/or sexual situations.

*Avatars*
User avatars on FurAffinity and its forums must be PG-13/family friendly in nature. If the user's icon is in violation, the user will be asked once to change their icon before action is taken to remove it. The portiong of the FurAffinity which allows users to upload avatar icons has been changed to reflect this.

*Posting Commission/Guest Art*
Users are allowed to post commissions done for themselves only if the following conditions are met:
1) User has permission from the artist to repost the image to FA.
2) Full credits are given to the artist on the first line of the description. FA will soon implement a function box which will allow users to post additional credits for artists. This field, when active, will be mandatory for guest art.

Commission and Guest Art may be subject to deletion at any time if requested by the image's original artist. Please ensure that you have permission from the artist before uploading their artwork to the site.


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## Augenti (Dec 28, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> Desktop images may, unlike screenshots, contain scenes from TV shows, movies or games.




So baaaaaasically all we have to do if we want to post a screenshot is post it as our wallpaper first.  Gotcha.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 28, 2005)

Augenti said:
			
		

> So baaaaaasically all we have to do if we want to post a screenshot is post it as our wallpaper first.  Gotcha.


Desktop images may, unlike screenshots, contain scenes from TV shows, movies or games with limitations. *Users may only upload one desktop screenshot at a time.*

Resolved, and thanks for pointing out my error. Heh heh.


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## furry (Dec 28, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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Not fair :<


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## Dragoneer (Dec 28, 2005)

furry said:
			
		

> Not fair :<


I know. We're so draconian!


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## uncia2000 (Dec 28, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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_*adjusts glasses on the bridge of my muzzle*_
Neither draconian nor Draconian, as far as I can see ^^
_(erm, if you want an explanation, ask Dave... )_

Sounds good. Additional credits on guest art gets a thumbs-up, too. thx


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## Tabuu-Lion (Dec 28, 2005)

I like these rules, and I think they are fair and long overdue to be stated. Good job.



			
				Preyfar said:
			
		

> *Users may only upload one desktop screenshot at a time.*



Does that mean there will be a field on our page that separately displays our desktop like DA or something? Otherwise with only submitting one and having it being treated like a regular submission, it'll likely get lost in the sauce e.e


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## StelardActek (Dec 28, 2005)

*Desktop field*

I like that idea, quite a bit in fact. YES, for putting extra fields in. Of course, it should only show up if a desktop has been submitted, unlike how featured submissions currently work.
Basically I'd suggest having desktop uploading be similar to avatar uploading. Doesn't go into the gallery, just into the special desktop slot.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 28, 2005)

*Re: Desktop field*



			
				StelardActek said:
			
		

> I like that idea, quite a bit in fact. YES, for putting extra fields in. Of course, it should only show up if a desktop has been submitted, unlike how featured submissions currently work.
> Basically I'd suggest having desktop uploading be similar to avatar uploading. Doesn't go into the gallery, just into the special desktop slot.


We're going to do some revisions ont he upload process, especially for species.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 28, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> Preyfar said:
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*LOL*. That's more like it!


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## kfvik (Dec 28, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Rules changes effective as of today. The TOS will be updated soon to further reflect these changes.
> 
> *Screenshots*
> Screenshots will no longer be allowed to be posted to FurAffinity _unless _--



*Thank you!*


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## Mapper (Dec 28, 2005)

cool


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## catsprin (Dec 29, 2005)

*just so I'm clear with the screenshot rule...*

I can post screenshots as long as I tell the source (game manufactuer) in the picture somewhere? 

i.e. game manufacturer and game title is what I need to list

if this is wrong or I'm still lacking something please let me know.  I've been making screenshots left and right with the notion to post them onto my account at FA.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: just so I'm clear with the screenshot rule...*



			
				catsprin said:
			
		

> I can post screenshots as long as I tell the source (game manufactuer) in the picture somewhere?
> 
> i.e. game manufacturer and game title is what I need to list
> 
> if this is wrong or I'm still lacking something please let me know.  I've been making screenshots left and right with the notion to post them onto my account at FA.







			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Screenshots
> Screenshots will no longer be allowed to be posted to FurAffinity unless they abide by the following guidelines:
> Users may not repost screenshots from TV shows, movies or games under any circumstances unless the image contain user-created content (avatars, maps, etc.) or follow Fair Use copyright guidelines. Users must cite the user-created content in the screenshot.



In other words, No, you can't. The only way you can upload a screen shot is if it happens to be your desktop, Or if there is fan created conent of some artistic value on the screenshot itself (I use the term artistic losely).

If you are not sure what that means then just don't upload it, that way you wont get in trouble for it if it breaks the rules ^_^


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## catsprin (Dec 29, 2005)

OK, thanks for the clarity.


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## Tikara (Dec 29, 2005)

Soo, this means an end to Second Life FurNation screenshots? Cause I personally like those!  I can't download it, so the screenshots of SL is the only way I can see into that world...


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## Mapper (Dec 29, 2005)

Ok what about something like this http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10666/

Its a Doom3 background but with a superimposed character. And it is mentioned in the description block as well.

If not Ill remove it.


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## mwoof (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Screenshots will no longer be allowed to be posted to FurAffinity...


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## Torin_Darkflight (Dec 29, 2005)

All right, I got a couple questions about the "No more game screenshots unless it's fair use" rule.

First off, many of the images in my gallery are drawings that use video game screenshots or elements from video games in the background, and some of them even use elements from video games as the central subject (Such as sprite art). I make sure to specifically state in the descriptions exactly where the screenshots, backgrounds and sprites come from for every image. Does this mean I now have to remove those images, or can I keep them up there?

Second, would uploading a screenshot of a game in order to show a high score be considered "fair use", or is that not allowed?


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: just so I'm clear with the screenshot rule...*



			
				Pinkuh said:
			
		

> If you are not sure what that means then just don't upload it, that way you wont get in trouble for it if it breaks the rules ^_^


Would hope no-one would actually get into too much "trouble", esp. since it's inevitable that a lot of people won't read the rules/updates all the time.
No need to slam down people _too_ much for that, IMHO. 

Cute avvie, btw! :shock:


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

On a more wide-ranging basis, would it be a good idea to put something in the rules to say "If in doubt re. content, upload it elsewhere [e.g. for pics, to http://www.photobucket.com/ , http://www.tinypic.com/ , etc., if no hosting is available] and send the URL to admin (/admin help desk) for their call"?

(Not that there's a long list of "do not posts"/grey areas).

Anyhow, should still be able to reduce time/hassle for admin and users by encouraging such an approach, I'd've thought.


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## kfvik (Dec 29, 2005)

Torin_Darkflight said:
			
		

> First off, many of the images in my gallery are drawings that use video game screenshots or elements from video games in the background, and some of them even use elements from video games as the central subject (Such as sprite art). I make sure to specifically state in the descriptions exactly where the screenshots, backgrounds and sprites come from for every image. Does this mean I now have to remove those images, or can I keep them up there?


I would think that unless you only pressed the 'print screen/take screenshot' key but actually put some work into it (making a drawing and using a background from a game, compositing elements like characters into a wallpaper) it should be ok to upload


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## Torin_Darkflight (Dec 29, 2005)

kfvik said:
			
		

> I would think that unless you only pressed the 'print screen/take screenshot' key but actually put some work into it (making a drawing and using a background from a game, compositing elements like characters into a wallpaper) it should be ok to upload



Except for the sprite art (Which is still uncertain in my mind in regards to the new rules), all of the images in question do have a drawing component that I physically created. All of the screenshots and video game elements used in these drawings are in the background, and are not the central focus of the image.

Take, for example, this image. I physically drew Yoshi, and I construced and rendered the warp pipes and ground in Bryce 3D. The sky and mountains background, however, was taken directly from the game "Super Mario World". This is a fair example of how I used the screenshots and game elements in these images. 

Sometimes the screenshot takes up only part of the image background (Like the Yoshi image linked above), and sometimes it covers the entire image, being used not only as the background but also as the staging area for what is shown (I wish I could show an example of this so you know what I mean, but given the things I like to draw it's best I don't). Regardless of how much of the image the screenshots or game elements take up, they all have a physically drawn or constructed component created by myself and added to the image. So, none of the images are a straight 100% unedited copy-and-paste, I did put some artistic work into them.


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## kfvik (Dec 29, 2005)

Torin_Darkflight said:
			
		

> _snipped for lenght_


I would say stuff like what you linked to would be ok, since you actually made the yoshi and pipes yourself.


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## Arcturius (Dec 29, 2005)

kfvik said:
			
		

> I would think that unless you only pressed the 'print screen/take screenshot' key but actually put some work into it



Well sometimes the case of just pressing 'print screen/take screenshot' key doesn't take into account the time and effort you take into actually getting everything set up in game before hand.

I have 3 WoW screenshots up on my gallery that would have been impossible to have done without all the hundreds and I mean litterally hundreds of other players who were there they aren't 'just screenshots' they took a whole day of gathering folks and planning to get set up how how would that be accounted for?

It's not often you get 160 Horde players doing a raid on IronForge on our server (EU:Thunderhorn), in fact this was the first and only time it had been attempted let alone pulled off to the level of causing the server to crash. So for me those screenshots took a lot of effort to get.


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## kfvik (Dec 29, 2005)

Arcturius said:
			
		

> _some sort of massive WoW thing_


I'm sure you got worshipped on the WoW forums for that. But I wouldn't call it art.
Now what can be called art can be discussed to death so it'd be up to the mods, but I wouldn't let it slide


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## Arcturius (Dec 29, 2005)

kfvik said:
			
		

> But I wouldn't call it art.



But that my friend is only your oppinion, just becaue it's not art to you doen't neat that it's not art at all.

...and please if your gonna quote me actually take a quote don't just make one up because I never at any point said what you have quoted...


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## kfvik (Dec 29, 2005)

Arcturius said:
			
		

> But that my friend is only your oppinion, just becaue it's not art to you doen't neat that it's not art at all.


*cough*


			
				kfvik said:
			
		

> Now what can be called art can be discussed to death so it'd be up to the mods





			
				Arcturius said:
			
		

> ...and please if your gonna quote me actually take a quote don't just make one up because I never at any point said what you have quoted...


Pardon my mangling, I was merely attempting to save people from re-reading/scrolling past what they've already read before


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: just so I'm clear with the screenshot rule...*



			
				uncia2000 said:
			
		

> [Would hope no-one would actually get into too much "trouble", esp. since it's inevitable that a lot of people won't read the rules/updates all the time.
> No need to slam down people _too_ much for that, IMHO.
> 
> Cute avvie, btw! :shock:



Eh.... there is not much that Can be done more then Deleting the file and Shaking our finger at people and going... NO

As Far as Art is concerned its going to be walking a Very fine line. 

My take on the Matter:

*Second life art/Screenshots:* They SHOULD be alowed if you are showcasing a character that You created, or one that someone created for you. I know a couple of people who have made some really Cute comics, and one liners from random Images taken from Second Life. Second life is like walking Art becuase everyone has their own personal Thing they like/do/create. MOST secondlife stuff should be allowed. People will probably abuse this, and if they do we will notify them. 




			
				Mapper said:
			
		

> Ok what about something like this http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10666/



*Photomanipulated Screen Shots*: Stuff like what Mapper posted Is ENCOURAGED. That is NOT just a static Screenshot, You had to put some time and effort into it. This kinda stuff is OK. If you use a Game engin to create a silly comic, or you piece things togeather from a game to make a picture it takes EFFORT.



			
				Torin_Darkflight said:
			
		

> All right, I got a couple questions about the "No more game screenshots unless it's fair use" rule.
> 
> First off, many of the images in my gallery are drawings that use video game screenshots or elements from video games in the background, and some of them even use elements from video games as the central subject (Such as sprite art). I make sure to specifically state in the descriptions exactly where the screenshots, backgrounds and sprites come from for every image. Does this mean I now have to remove those images, or can I keep them up there?
> 
> Second, would uploading a screenshot of a game in order to show a high score be considered "fair use", or is that not allowed?



You can Definatly keep them there. Again, It isn't a static Screenshot. You had to put time and effort into editing, creating those pieces in your gallery, so you are OK to continue doing so. 




			
				Arcturius said:
			
		

> Well sometimes the case of just pressing 'print screen/take screenshot' key doesn't take into account the time and effort you take into actually getting everything set up in game before hand.
> 
> I have 3 WoW screenshots up on my gallery that would have been impossible to have done without all the hundreds and I mean litterally hundreds of other players who were there they aren't 'just screenshots' they took a whole day of gathering folks and planning to get set up how how would that be accounted for?
> 
> It's not often you get 160 Horde players doing a raid on IronForge on our server (EU:Thunderhorn), in fact this was the first and only time it had been attempted let alone pulled off to the level of causing the server to crash. So for me those screenshots took a lot of effort to get.



If you did not actualy take any time To take the screenshot and Edit it, then I am sorry, it is just a static screen shot.  As Much time as you put into the Raid, it is still Only a static screenshot. There is No artistic value in it. It's just gathering a whole bunch of players and going at it. Yes it may be Epic for WoW, but this is not a place to post static things like that. Sorry to Dissapoint.

Rules To go by:

If you take a Screenshot from a game with Prerendered characters, Do nothing to it, and post it, It will NOT be allowed.

If you take a screenshot from a game where you personaly Edited the chatacters to match your view, or someone else did (ie. Secondlife) It is fine.

If you take a Screenshot from a game with Pre-rendered characters, And Edit it, IE taking Sprites and moving them, Drawing stuff on Screenshoted backgrounds, Taking screenshots and putting them togeather as a comic, Then it is OK.

We Just don't want Static Screenshots...

Expecialy from things like Anime's or cartoons, which I think was the origanal goal of the Origanal rule, To keep people from posting Cartoon network type screenshots XD.


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## Raven (Dec 29, 2005)

So whats the difrence between taking a artistic photo of like a flower or somthing like that and taking a photo of somthing pretty in a game or somthing? just curious because sometimes in games just like in life you can see a sunset that looks pretty and marvelous and all that junk but taking a picture of a sunset irl is considered art and a picture in a game of a sunset that may look just as beutiful is not?

i understand what the rules are saying, i just like busting chops on some things, but where exsactly do you draw the line of static nothingness and efforted art? I can take pictures in real life and put as little or as much effort into it as i would taking a picture in a game. 

I guess thats just somthing for everyone to think about.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

Raven said:
			
		

> So whats the difrence between taking a artistic photo of like a flower or somthing like that and taking a photo of somthing pretty in a game or somthing? just curious because sometimes in games just like in life you can see a sunset that looks pretty and marvelous and all that junk but taking a picture of a sunset irl is considered art and a picture in a game of a sunset that may look just as beutiful is not?
> 
> i understand what the rules are saying, i just like busting chops on some things, but where exsactly do you draw the line of static nothingness and efforted art? I can take pictures in real life and put as little or as much effort into it as i would taking a picture in a game.
> 
> I guess thats just somthing for everyone to think about.



I am sorry... But Games can indeed be pretty, but an unedited screenshot is still Unedited... 

Though you bring up a definatly valid point...

There is this one Spot in Halo 2 on the MP map Ivory Tower (yeah I know >_>) Anyway... there is this single little flower with a sunbeam on it, it looks like something strait out of a photograph....

Hmmm... You have given me allot to think about young Padawan... Hmmmm Let me sit down and disscuss this with my peers.


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## Turbine_Divinity (Dec 29, 2005)

I take it game screenshots are okay if I'm the one developing the game.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

Turbine_Divinity said:
			
		

> I take it game screenshots are okay if I'm the one developing the game.


Neat! 
_(and phps a good point, too?  Hadn't considered that, myself...)_

One possible question might be whether you owned the copyright on the completed game-- if that was a particular issue, rather than just a near-blanket ban on screenshots for other reasons.
e.g. compared w/a lot of people I knew at uni. who later worked on GTA, but didn't "own" the final product.

_(Just a thought, anyhow, fwiw)_


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## Torin_Darkflight (Dec 29, 2005)

I agree with Turbine_Divinity, what if the game or video in question is something the artists themselves made? Can screenshots be posted in those cases?

And thanks for replying about my other concerns. Glad to know I won't have to go back and delete any of my pics.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

Torin_Darkflight said:
			
		

> I agree with Turbine_Divinity, what if the game or video in question is something the artists themselves made? Can screenshots be posted in those cases?
> 
> And thanks for replying about my other concerns. Glad to know I won't have to go back and delete any of my pics.



hell yes... if it is something they worked on... something with their name in the Credits... Hells yes


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## Turbine_Divinity (Dec 29, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

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Yeah, good thinking. Not a problem for us, our project is wholly self funded, we're keeping our IP, and I'm the only artist, but contract gigs I'm involved with, I have to sign NDAs and they own the work outright.


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Im sorry, but alolowing SL screenshots but banning any other type of screenshot is utter BS.

SL is NOT walking artwork its complete and total shit! The act is EXACTLY the same as taking a screenshot of a car that you customized in a video game like need for speed.

So why isnt that allowed but badly rendered crappy looking 3d furries with 20 foot long cocks "yiffing" each other allowed?!?!?


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Im sorry, but alolowing SL screenshots but banning any other type of screenshot is utter BS.
> 
> SL is NOT walking artwork its complete and total shit! The act is EXACTLY the same as taking a screenshot of a car that you customized in a video game like need for speed.
> 
> So why isnt that allowed but badly rendered crappy looking 3d furries with 20 foot long cocks "yiffing" each other allowed?!?!?



If someone wants to Post a Customised Car they Made in Need for speed they can... ANY Sort of Customization Is Artwork.

Don't get you Knickers in a twist.


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## Myr (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Im sorry, but alolowing SL screenshots but banning any other type of screenshot is utter BS.
> 
> SL is NOT walking artwork its complete and total shit! The act is EXACTLY the same as taking a screenshot of a car that you customized in a video game like need for speed.
> 
> So why isnt that allowed but badly rendered crappy looking 3d furries with 20 foot long cocks "yiffing" each other allowed?!?!?


Just a second. You saw the part about screenshots with user content will still be allowed, right? So by my understanding, if someone posts a screenshot of an NFS car it'll be deleted. But if that car has a custom graphic/vinyl on it then it will not be deleted as long as the user specifies in the description what they did.

Like I could post a screenshot of one of my UT maps or video game development stuff as long as it's got content created by me. I can't go in there and take a screenshot of one of Epic's maps because I didn't create it. But if I made the gun in the player's hand, then yes it's ok as long as I point it out.

If you made a TV show or movie, then you can post stuff from that too granted it's content created by you. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think this is a smart idea. Screenshots are big (especially when they come from me being I have a 1920x1200 screen) and the files get huge to convey the quality that the user sees to others over the net.


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Pinkuh said:
			
		

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Ok, good. HEHEHEHEHE, you said knickers!!


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

Pinkuh said:
			
		

> If someone wants to Post a Customised Car they Made in Need for speed they can... ANY Sort of Customization Is Artwork.


Provided, of course, that they created the textures on their own.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

AuroranDragon said:
			
		

> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


You're quite correct, actually.


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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Well thats no good. The textures on SL characters arent created in a 3d modelling program on SL now are they? Or are they? I dont know cos i dont play crap like that. But from what i have SEEN, through all the rampant uploads on FA of SL screenshots, they all look pre-rendered to me. As in, not created by the users of the character,l but mearly selected from a "create a character" menu.

If that is the case, then  SL screenies shouldnt be treated any differently than a need for speed screenshot of your car.

Or are you just being biased towards SL because it allows people to put their characters in sexual poses and post shitloads of crappy screenshots?


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## Myr (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Well thats no good. The textures on SL characters arent created in a 3d modelling program on SL now are they? Or are they? I dont know cos i dont play crap like that. But from what i have SEEN, through all the rampant uploads on FA of SL screenshots, they all look pre-rendered to me. As in, not created by the users of the character,l but mearly selected from a "create a character" menu.


I don't play SL either so I don't know the specifics of the program. But I know the larger furs appear to be made up of many spheres of various colors all joined together into one animated form. Each one appears unique too be it one of Hoodah's or one of someone else's (I forget who made the big black anubus-themed character). Those I know for sure are custom and the textures always appear to be flat colors for each shape.

From what I know, only the human characters come from the character select screens probably The Sims styling. Fur characters have some sort of affiliation with FurNation and various artists. I am not aware of if they are selectable, traded, downloaded, or all custom made too. Someone else will have to fill in here for me.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Well thats no good. The textures on SL characters arent created in a 3d modelling program on SL now are they? Or are they? I dont know cos i dont play crap like that. But from what i have SEEN, through all the rampant uploads on FA of SL screenshots, they all look pre-rendered to me. As in, not created by the users of the character,l but mearly selected from a "create a character" menu.
> 
> If that is the case, then  SL screenies shouldnt be treated any differently than a need for speed screenshot of your car.
> 
> Or are you just being biased towards SL because it allows people to put their characters in sexual poses and post shitloads of crappy screenshots?



If you have not played then you have no right to judge. Fact is, Second Life is 100% user customisable, thats why people love it. 

Fact also is, the only thing that can be Personaly Dezigned on Need for speed is the graphics that go on your car. If you do not Create your own origanal car Graphics then you are SOL and Can't post screenshots.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Or are you just being biased towards SL because it allows people to put their characters in sexual poses and post shitloads of crappy screenshots?


When you can bring an intelligent contribution to this conversation please let me know.


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

So Basicly saying that if you are customizing game provided content that it is in voilation of TOS. There is alot of games that let you customize your avatar almost all MMRPG games allow this. 2nd life isn't really a game so to say but most certainly works in the same manner as a MMRPG. So in truth a 2nd life screen shot using 2nd life provided contain would be deleted while if using custom material would be allowed. Am I understanding this correctly. If not then it seem to me that this would be favortism towards one program since its sort of catered towards the furry fandom. Doesn't seem like a very fare TOS.

So another question would be if say um Black and White 2 screen shots are taking will um modify game provided content ( since Blank and White models can't be edited yet and texture changes are limited ) like for example um take my lion creature and making him 500 ft tall ( which you can do with a cheat ) would be found in violation??


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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That is an intelligent point. It seesm you ARE just being biased towards SL because it caters to furry porn and you more than likely use it.

Maybe when you can bring an intelligent answer to the table and stop being biased towards SL maybe YOU should let US know?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> There is alot of games that let you customize your avatar almost all MMRPG games allow this. 2nd life isn't really a game so to say but most certainly works in the same manner as a MMRPG. So in truth a 2nd life screen shot using 2nd life provided contain would be deleted while if using custom material would be allowed.


MMOs let you customize your avatar based on pre-sets that the company creates for you. You can't add anything you can dream of to your Everquest 2 or WOW character. Want to be a Gnoll in World of Warcraft? You can't.

In Second Life, you can create just about anything you want, upload textures to make it look just about however you want and add your own animations to make it unique. Thus, SL is almost entirely based on user created content. If you can think of it, essentially, you can create it. Become any character, species or color that you want to create.

VASTLY different from any MMO character creation.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> That is an intelligent point. It seesm you ARE just being biased towards SL because it caters to furry porn and you more than likely use it.
> 
> Maybe when you can bring an intelligent answer to the table and stop being biased towards SL maybe YOU should let US know?


I'm biased against Second Life because it caters to furry porn. Sorry, I think not. Second Life is a buggy, slow and clunky program that caters to whatever people want from it, and whatever they can create for it.

Making plebian assumptions that I favor something for the sheer reason that it allows porn is both inane and insulting.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> So Basicly saying that if you are customizing game provided content that it is in voilation of TOS. There is alot of games that let you customize your avatar almost all MMRPG games allow this. 2nd life isn't really a game so to say but most certainly works in the same manner as a MMRPG. So in truth a 2nd life screen shot using 2nd life provided contain would be deleted while if using custom material would be allowed. Am I understanding this correctly. If not then it seem to me that this would be favortism towards one program since its sort of catered towards the furry fandom. Doesn't seem like a very fare TOS.
> 
> So another question would be if say um Black and White 2 screen shots are taking will um modify game provided content ( since Blank and White models can't be edited yet and texture changes are limited ) like for example um take my lion creature and making him 500 ft tall ( which you can do with a cheat ) would be found in violation??



Yeah but in MMORPG's you have a set amount of faces, a Set amount of Eyecolors, a Set amount of Hairstyles, and a set amount of Spieces you can be... In secondlife you Can design anything the Sky is the limit. If you want to be a walking bowl of Potato Salad with a monkey on your rim no one will stop you. Thats The difference. As Much as you think your character May be unique on an MMORPG there is ALWAYS going to be someone with your exact look somewhere. 

However you do Bring up a Valid point... If people just keep posting the same Generic BS over and over from Second life it won't be Tolerated, Having Yiffy the Bonk fox's show up with a Weiner in his butt for 200 random pictures is not art... It's retarded. 

But! By the same token... If you take and modify a game, like a FPS or an MMORPG and you import your own modles into it with your own textures and the like then PLEASE feel free to post it. Thats Art... that takes time to do. And mods are so fun! I love to see what people can do with games ^_^.

We are not going to be unfair about this. All We want in the end is True User Created Conent... We want to see the Stuff that comes from your Minds, not a pre-made Generic Palate


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Grave said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the tone of these threads havnt led us to beleive otherwise...

And like i ASKED in a previous post, i did not know that you actually CREATE your own textures in SL. BUT, i still think it is unfair.

Whether you created the texture or not, you still chose where to add it, what color to make it, and in what form. Like, example in Need for speed, i chose vynal 2 to go with vynal 5 because vynal 4 didnt go with 2. And i chose metallic black base coat for my car as it compliments the colors of the vynals well.

Thats still artistic and is in a way creating your own design... So i still do not see why we are going to have to put up with endless crappy looking furry SL screenshots yet we cant upload a GOOD LOOKING screenshot of a car paint and body scheme from our normal video games?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> So i still do not see why we are going to have to put up with endless crappy looking furry SL screenshots yet we cant upload a GOOD LOOKING screenshot of a car paint and body scheme from our normal video games?


Because you didn't personally create it, and it wasn't personally made for you.


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Grave said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We PERSONALLY chose the colors and designs and themes and where they go and what not. As long as we give credit then where is the problem? What are you afraid of? You think EA is gonna care that someone posted a pic of their in-game dream car on a furry site? Please!

They dont even frown upon these types of things on actual GAME WEBSITES.
So why are you guys making a big deal out of it?


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Dragoneer said:
> 
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We are making a Big Deal about it becuase we Don't want to waist Webspace on Generic Non User created Crap!!!


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Pinkuh said:
			
		

> Grave said:
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But you are willing to waste webspace on generic user created crap like SL screenshots?

Again, the stench of favouritsm arises


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> But you are willing to waste webspace on generic user created crap like SL screenshots?
> 
> Again, the stench of favouritsm arises



Listen I am not argueing with you Further... Eather Obey the rules... Or go someplace else... Savvy?


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

I am still confused here how is changing a eye color on a avatar any different from changing the paint color on my car in NFS Most wanted. The defenition of modding by webster's

the making of a limited change in something

And by Wiki

Modding is a slang expression for the act of modifying a piece of hardware or software to perform a function not intended or authorized by the original manufacturer

So explain to me how using the 2nd life client is creating any content that was not orginal there. Useing the client to make contect already throws it out of the defenition of modding or making of new contect. Just because I choose setting in a client properties panel does not make me an artist. Now if I break out with Maya and make my own models or use Nvidia's DDS plugin and make my own textures I will accept that. You just seem to be contradicting yourself. Just doesn't seem fare for the rest of us that don't have a love affair with Furnation's 2nd life account.


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Pinkuh said:
			
		

> Grave said:
> 
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Great attitude for an admin there. Keep it up and you will go oh so far!


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> But you are willing to waste webspace on generic user created crap like SL screenshots?
> 
> Again, the stench of favouritsm arises


Favoritism? Damn right it is.

I support artists and people who want to create. Sorry if that's not grooving for you, love.


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Grave said:
> 
> 
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Ok, whatever "admins"  :roll:


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 29, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> One possible question might be whether you owned the copyright on the completed game-- if that was a particular issue, rather than just a near-blanket ban on screenshots for other reasons.
> e.g. compared w/a lot of people I knew at uni. who later worked on GTA, but didn't "own" the final product.
> 
> _(Just a thought, anyhow, fwiw)_



Most people who work in the business may not be able to repost work under company copyright depending on their agreement. So if they have actual permission from the company, personally I do not see a problem.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> I am still confused here how is changing a eye color on a avatar any different from changing the paint color on my car in NFS Most wanted. The defenition of modding by webster's
> 
> the making of a limited change in something
> 
> ...



Well I am sorry dude.. thats the Breaks. If it doesn't have user created content we wont host it. Period. End of Story. Second Life has that. Need For speed doesn't. 

If another game comes out where you can create your own models like in secondlife, then we will allow stuff from it too. If you create your own Models for a game... like say "Unreal Tournoment" then Yay... Post it, You just Can't post Anything that COMES WITH THE GAME.


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## Sigil (Dec 29, 2005)

Even given everything else, I cannot believe this is being argued.

Screenshots.. SCREENSHOTS.

Arg.


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## zannah (Dec 29, 2005)

> So explain to me how using the 2nd life client is creating any content that was not orginal there. Useing the client to make contect already throws it out of the defenition of modding or making of new contect. Just because I choose setting in a client properties panel does not make me an artist. Now if I break out with Maya and make my own models or use Nvidia's DDS plugin and make my own textures I will accept that. You just seem to be contradicting yourself. Just doesn't seem fare for the rest of us that don't have a love affair with Furnation's 2nd life account.



Uhm, because if you want to move beyond the basic human avatar SL starts you out with, those setting panels do you absolutely no good.  SL has built-in 3D rendering capabilities.  Those furry avatars you see were built from scratch with shapes and textures (the available library doesn't have that much in the way of fur) to work over the basic rendered human form.  It lets those of us who don't have and/or can't afford programs like Maya to build our own models (and IMHO, it's a heckuva lot easier to use for a visual person like me).  Yeah, you'll have the people who buy an avatar and do nothing to change it, but most of us take it further by custumizing every possible aspect, and building our own props and add-ons.  I can speak from personal experience when I say that is a LOT of work.  Hours of tweaking at the very least to get the effect you're looking for, and that's not even considering the time it takes to script and animate objects.  If I've spent four to six hours building and customizing my SL avatar and the props that go with her (working from scratch, not pre-made objects) I damn well want to show off what I've done.


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## Myr (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave,

Here's the big difference. When you go into a game like Need For Speed there is a file for every color, every part, every upgrade, each vinyl, all the text, and everything else you could possibly want. Someone at EA took those, put them into the game, and then defined the mechanisms for you to chose those parts so that the game can display your ride correctly. Everything is predefined by a set of rules defined by the game's developers. If you buy a Lexus, upgrade and add graphics and paint to it, the result is _still_ a Lexus. Just because you changed it in some way it's still a defined, tested (hopefully), approved solution in the game's predefined set of rules. EA already created this for you as an eligible combination of parts and upgrades to create such a car. You cannot turn a Lamborghini into a Lexus and vice versa. You cannot make a car in the game into something custom either using the items provided. This rule applies whether EA decided to leave you 2 body kits or 5 body kits, engine upgrades or no engine upgrades, 120 roof scoops or 2 roof scopes...all this is already a part of the game and is a *foreseable* combination of game-provided content to develop your particular ride.

In SL they provide the tools for you to create your own character. But, you can take that Lexus this time and turn it into whatever you want. You can add custom user-created-content to the game and arrange the parts that the game provides you in any way you want. This is not based on a set of predetermined combinations of parts or rules to govern how you use things. You need to animate them and interact with them, yes, but you yourself must define the mechanisms for that sort of interaction manually. SL is more of a sandbox to do and build what you want, while NFS is a catalogue full of options and choices you pick, not create.

I hope that makes the difference clear.


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

The reason it is being agrueed here because the admin here um seem to think that using a 2nd life client to make an avatar is the same as using maya to make a 3D model. If I am not makeing the model on my computer then uploading it or using my own textures from my own created pictures then I am useing predefined guidelines in the 2nd life client and getting credited for making an orginal piece of art here. That is not fare to the people that work hard and very damn hard at creating a 3d scene while some newbie with no talent can simple downloadn 2nd life and choose some settings in the client for there avatar and make some junk in the sandy box area and be called the same thing. I could except a rule in TOS saying um only screen shots with furry related content will be allowed but no the admins are very stuborn and um really don't want to here the view of there fan base. This is why people attack FA. That is very horrible to simple say " um thats the way I like it and I don't care what you have to say so F*ck off" There is no point in even announceing a new TOS or even having this discussion group. People will attack FA again if this is the Admins additude. I can now understand why FA went down the first time.


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## Pico (Dec 29, 2005)

Sigil said:
			
		

> Even given everything else, I cannot believe this is being argued.
> 
> Screenshots.. SCREENSHOTS.
> 
> Arg.



Seriously, this isn't a big deal when considering all of the other important shat that needs to be fixed with FA at this time, but oh well :*)  Furries need to find drama in everything, after all!


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## Grave (Dec 29, 2005)

AuroranDragon said:
			
		

> Grave,
> 
> Here's the big difference. When you go into a game like Need For Speed there is a file for every color, every part, every upgrade, each vinyl, all the text, and everything else you could possibly want. Someone at EA took those, put them into the game, and then defined the mechanisms for you to chose those parts so that the game can display your ride correctly. Everything is predefined by a set of rules defined by the game's developers. If you buy a Lexus, upgrade and add graphics and paint to it, the result is _still_ a Lexus. Just because you changed it in some way it's still a defined, tested (hopefully), approved solution in the game's predefined set of rules. EA already created this for you as an eligible combination of parts and upgrades to create such a car. You cannot turn a Lamborghini into a Lexus and vice versa. You cannot make a car in the game into something custom either using the items provided. This rule applies whether EA decided to leave you 2 body kits or 5 body kits, engine upgrades or no engine upgrades, 120 roof scoops or 2 roof scopes...all this is already a part of the game and is a *foreseable* combination of game-provided content to develop your particular ride.
> 
> ...




Thankyou. If only the actual ADMINS had the maturity and articulate ability to explain it like you did, which they should have done in the first place then an arguement wouldnt have been sparked...

Im thinking that they should add you to their team? 

Thankyou, im done with this now.


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

Also um Maya Personal Edition is absolutely free for person to use and um and the material made with it is free!


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> That is very horrible to simple say " um thats the way I like it and I don't care what you have to say so F*ck off" There is no point in even announceing a new TOS or even having this discussion group. *People will attack FA again if this is the Admins additude. I can now understand why FA went down the first time.*



Umm just looking at this reasonably here. I'll give you that the admins or at least certain ones are being rather abusive in the thread.

However, your statement that I put in bold is extremely ridiculous.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> The reason it is being agrueed here because the admin here um seem to think that using a 2nd life client to make an avatar is the same as using maya to make a 3D model. If I am not makeing the model on my computer then uploading it or using my own textures from my own created pictures then I am useing predefined guidelines in the 2nd life client and getting credited for making an orginal piece of art here. That is not fare to the people that work hard and very damn hard at creating a 3d scene while some newbie with no talent can simple downloadn 2nd life and choose some settings in the client for there avatar and make some junk in the sandy box area and be called the same thing. I could except a rule in TOS saying um only screen shots with furry related content will be allowed but no the admins are very stuborn and um really don't want to here the view of there fan base. This is why people attack FA. That is very horrible to simple say " um thats the way I like it and I don't care what you have to say so F*ck off" There is no point in even announceing a new TOS or even having this discussion group. People will attack FA again if this is the Admins additude. I can now understand why FA went down the first time.



Dude... thats like saying "OMG YOU USED PHOTOSHOP TO MAKE THAT... YOU CAN'T UPLOAD THAT BECUASE YOU USED A SET OF TOOLS IN PROGRAM THAT HELPED YOU CREATE ART OMG"

Second life doesn't COME with Furry Avatars, you have to MAKE one... or get someone else to make you one! MAKE

*MAKE*

Like AuroranDragon, all of these other games have presets. Secondlife doesn't... now please move onto something else... we have discussed this to death, we have stated whats going on plainly and clearly... and if you can't accept it thats your own Problem.

Moving on.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Thankyou. If only the actual ADMINS had the maturity and articulate ability to explain it like you did, which they should have done in the first place then an arguement wouldnt have been sparked...
> 
> Im thinking that they should add you to their team?
> 
> Thankyou, im done with this now.


I did explain the difference in my reply about what made the difference,

_"MMOs let you customize your avatar based on pre-sets that the company creates for you. You can't add anything you can dream of to your Everquest 2 or WOW character. Want to be a Gnoll in World of Warcraft? You can't. 

In Second Life, you can create just about anything you want, upload textures to make it look just about however you want and add your own animations to make it unique. Thus, SL is almost entirely based on user created content. If you can think of it, essentially, you can create it. Become any character, species or color that you want to create."_

The different in taking something pre-generated in a game and something infinitely customizable... well, I thought that was rather clear.


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

I am just trying to saying that um unmature attutides is what caused FA to go down like it did the first time. The whole little thing over the server. People need to grow. Saying um thats the way it is and go some where else is ridiculous especial from an admin.


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## Myr (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> The reason it is being agrueed here because the admin here um seem to think that using a 2nd life client to make an avatar is the same as using maya to make a 3D model. If I am not makeing the model on my computer then uploading it or using my own textures from my own created pictures then I am useing predefined guidelines in the 2nd life client and getting credited for making an orginal piece of art here.


It is. In SL you get to work with spheres, cubes, and other primitives to make a fully featured model. In Maya (and I know from experience) you do the exact same thing except now you have vertex controls and a lot of much more powerful tools rather than simple shape altering abilities.




> That is not fare to the people that work hard and very damn hard at creating a 3d scene while some newbie with no talent can simple downloadn 2nd life and choose some settings in the client for there avatar and make some junk in the sandy box area and be called the same thing. I could except a rule in TOS saying um only screen shots with furry related content will be allowed but no the admins are very stuborn and um really don't want to here the view of there fan base. This is why people attack FA. That is very horrible to simple say " um thats the way I like it and I don't care what you have to say so F*ck off" There is no point in even announceing a new TOS or even having this discussion group. People will attack FA again if this is the Admins additude. I can now understand why FA went down the first time.


By your logic it's also unfair to an expert artist when someone with no talent uploads something and calls it art. You know the difference between good art and bad art, right? It's the same for 3d art. It's the same thing regardless of it if came from Maya or SL. But the quality differs by leaps and bounds. Should FA now outlaw those who create poor quality art because those who make really good art think it's not fair? No! Especially since some of those bad artists may eventually become really talented in a couple of years later.

EDIT: And to clearify, bad art is stuff you could create in MS Paint (for example), and good art is created in Photoshop (for example, no offenses intended). MS Paint is to SL just like Photoshop is to Maya. They do the same things, but the functionality and results are vastly different.


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

So know the 2nd life client is being regarded as a 3d rendering tool. The client is exactly what it is created for making an avatar to get online to a 3D chat room like environment. Maya is certainly not as simplified. But 2nd life is not a 3D tool. So the analogy of Photoshop to MS Paint does not apply. Be more like Yahoo Avatar creator to Photoshop. Yes you can be very creative with Yahoo Avatar creator but it is not a photo manipulation tool it simple creates avatar for you IM windows. I can't believe that 2nd life client is being compared to a 3d rendering tool. The issue of bad art vs good art was never the case. Just grabbing pre generated things out of the 2nd life client was. While at the same time saying that is different from grabbing pre generated thing out of any other game.

Seems like special privillages are being given to 2nd life. THats all. Thats not fair! Thats my point. Not art quality.


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

Simple if that is the way the majority feels then there in nothing I can do about it but live with it. ^_^ Oh well I had to try anyway. That what democracy is all about.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> Seems like special privillages are being given to 2nd life. THats all. Thats not fair! Thats my point. Not art quality.


Well, what do you think would be fair? SL has no "special privledges". It's just become the topic of discussion, as it's one of the few programs that promotes user created content more than any other.

Personally, I hate SL. It's got a crappy engine and is generally pretty ugly.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> yoshi987 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Took the words out of my mouth there.

Have tried to follow all this and it still looks as though there's a few more shades-of-gray in here than I'd thought.

(The analogy a few pages back re. photographers not having any huge amount of creative input by way of actually creating the original model/scene/whatever is actually quite a fair one, phps?).

_*re-reads*_


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

Stepping aside, are there other issues re. screenshots (as glossed, in passing) aside from the point re. creative/artistic input?

For example, those possible copyright issues noted, ability to flood the system with huge numbers of submissions (same goes for photographers?), etc.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> (The analogy a few pages back re. photographers not having any huge amount of creative input by way of actually creating the original model/scene/whatever is actually quite a fair one, phps?).


Well, photography is a different can of worms. It's just not truly comparible to screenshots.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 29, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> For example, those possible copyright issues noted, ability to flood the system with huge numbers of submissions (same goes for photographers?), etc.


The main issue is flooding the system with a huge number of submissions. Most photographers try to take images of unique things. Pressing printscreen on an image of a Tauren, well... they all look the same, really. There's only so much you can do.

Photographs are a glimps into life, are far more personal. While the same can be said about screenshots, reality -vs- mass marketed gamed... you can do a lot of things with a camera. Not so much with in game screenshots.

I've seen some amazing, beautiful photographs. With camera, technology, you can do some fantastic things. With a game, you're as limited as the in game engine, and can't really... add a personal touch to it.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> I am just trying to saying that um unmature attutides is what caused FA to go down like it did the first time. The whole little thing over the server. People need to grow. Saying um thats the way it is and go some where else is ridiculous especial from an admin.



Two people yelling at each other to "grow up" is not going to get any idea across.

Have you ever read Aesop's fable where there was a bet between the Sun and the Wind?

The Sun and the Wind saw a man wearing a hat and jacket, so they debated who was the strongest by seeing who can get the man to remove the hat and jacket.

So the Wind blew, angry and harsh, it caused the man to cling tighter to his coat and cover his head with the hat. Soon the wind tired and stopped trying and allowed the sun to take its turn.

The Sun shone brightly but gently, as the sun gradually became warmer the man drew a sweat and removed his hat and jacket.

So as with all Aesop's fable it drew a moral, I'll let you figure out what it is.

Also by the way, private websites are more of a "Benevolent Dictatorship" meaning that while it's good for them to allow users to air concerns, it is not a true democracy here. Someone is paying for the server so that has more of a represenative vote.

It's just within their best interests to listen, however, just don't use the word "democracy" as the qualifier for websites.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> uncia2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*chuckles*. Just wait 'til someone uploads 600 pics of their pets!

Yeah, not totally comparable perhaps, but am inclined to agree that there's a degree of creative input when special care has been taken for very specific (and limited number of) screenshots.

Dunno... Agree that lines do need to be drawn somewhere to save the community from people crying "foul" when/if they flood the system then are "supressed" for having merely submitted what was valid content.
*
And there _are_ genuine copyright issues, too: would've thought those might be a greater concern, really, from a community/site p.o.v.?
Not that I think most game copyright owners have been too heavy-handed on screenshots recently?? (Or not that I've noticed).

_Freely admit am no "expert" on such matters..._


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> uncia2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heh... I was still typing my previous response, above, when you had already responded.
Please read in conjunction, fwiw.

Yes, can definitely see that point and agree, even if not just that issue "in isolation".
For everyone to be browsing the latest submissions and see a screenful of screenshots isn't perhaps conducive to the overall community "goals".
OK, can perhaps filter those out, but then there are perhaps space issues further down the line. (Not quite as high profile, those, as they used to be- but maybe after the earlier problems today, more noteworthy than I'd've thought, too!).


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## yoshi987 (Dec 29, 2005)

Thank you for listening to me. uncia2000 Um I have another um question that is appreciated for thread. I am a beta tester for windows vista. The new build just came out and I got it and would like to show it off how it handles photos. I have already got the artist permission of the galleries displayed. Um just curious about uploading something like that. Um I would take them down after awhile and throw up the copyrights too. Just Curious really. ( I personal haven't decided if I want to do this but I like to know if it is ok ) Um is this only appropriate for the desktop upload area only??

Please try to be non basis if you were not in agreement with me on the other subject. Thanks ^_^


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> Thank you for listening to me. uncia2000


No probs.
Isn't my call at the end of the day. Just realised that what I'd taken for granted as a simple issue might be a bit more complex.
I still think the post Dragoneer made at the top of the thread was well worded and the reasons stated above for such restrictions are by-and-large sensible ones.

Certainly doesn't hurt to listen to well-reasoned points from those who might be impacted, though...


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## uncia2000 (Dec 29, 2005)

yoshi987 said:
			
		

> I am a beta tester for windows vista. The new build just came out and I got it and would like to show it off how it handles photos. I have already got the artist permission of the galleries displayed. Um just curious about uploading something like that. Um I would take them down after awhile and throw up the copyrights too. Just Curious really. ( I personal haven't decided if I want to do this but I like to know if it is ok ) Um is this only appropriate for the desktop upload area only??


Hmm... separate issue, yes.
Would those uploads be "screenshots", too? If so, can also see why there is that limit of one screenshot per user (if I read correctly)- to minimise any possible flooding should 100 users decide to screencap their online lives in near-real time.

Other than that, would guess was still "on topic" for community content (ain't just furry... )

_(Good luck with the beta testing, btw. Valuable work that)_


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## Pico (Dec 30, 2005)

What about screenshots of FA, such as this? http://pico.localghost.us/FA_submission.png


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## yoshi987 (Dec 30, 2005)

Um I don't know if this is dead thread but um Dragoneer um you asked awhile ago of what I thought would be fair. Um make special entry for 2nd life avatars. And limit the uploads to like 5 per user. Um I saw a furry ( which I tried finding again but um I deleted my history dooh! ) that had nothing but pictures of guest art work ( about 7 pics which were proper ) and about 50 screen shots of his 2nd life character. I just thought is was rediciloius that um he was wasting that much server space on a repeative theme. How many screen shot do I need to see of this avatar. A point brought up by Uncia sad that he was joking but its already happened. I just personal found this annoying. That and the way these if you wanna call um artist if you can call them that but I call um 2nd life users were using FA. hehe there is my two cents. ( Nothing personal against 2nd life users ) 

Yeah sort of the same reason I wasn't so sure I want to upload those desktop pic cause um it drifts away from what FA is really about.

PS sorry if you guys already resolved this. Um also Unica um let me tell you WIndows Vista is cool when its running but um has a long way to go!! Pic handle is cool with ranking and keyword use. ^_^


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 30, 2005)

I'm curious, why would you type out "um" in a reply?

That being said, I can see how there is a grey line as to what is an acceptable amount of screenshots of SL characters being uploaded before it constitutes as spam. 

Perhaps if you guys structured subfolders if multiple submissions of that nature would be uploaded, where if someone wants to show different angles and so forth, the first one would allow a watcher to be notified where as the rest could be into a subfolder a watcher would subscribe to, so that the rest is optional and also not flooding the front page.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 30, 2005)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> I'm curious, why would you type out "um" in a reply?
> 
> That being said, I can see how there is a grey line as to what is an acceptable amount of screenshots of SL characters being uploaded before it constitutes as spam.
> 
> Perhaps if you guys structured subfolders if multiple submissions of that nature would be uploaded, where if someone wants to show different angles and so forth, the first one would allow a watcher to be notified where as the rest could be into a subfolder a watcher would subscribe to, so that the rest is optional and also not flooding the front page.


That's a good point. Perhaps we could create a folder similar to the "Scraps" that doesn't cause new submissions to flood the main page.

Problem here is it's a grey line, and stepped over it either way will upset both camps. The spam ruling is one I find difficult to both enforce and define. While we can (and most likely will) get further clarification on that, people can easily say, "But artist X just spammed FA by uploading 50 of their pictures..."

Defining the difference in screeshot spam and art spam is both easy and hard. Easy, because you can state "multiple uploads of the same and/or similar thing may be considered spam" but... well, it boils down to a judgement call.

Clearly, the rules need further revisions on this matter to help provide further defininition on "acceptable screenshot content" and "picture spam", and how it applies to subjects like this. Some people have said to ban them outright, but I don't think it's fair. 

As much as I do not like Second Life, I will admit there's some rather nifty user creations on there.


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## Khaardun (Dec 30, 2005)

On the subject about screenshots, something just occured to me.

in the game, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of war, the company (Relic) have issued out 'mod tools' and have also allowed for players to customise certain units individually using programs such as 3D MAX 7 or Photoshop etc.

when the package first came out players were allowed to customise their armies colours, but also allowed for players to load up custom made (basically things the player made him/herself) banners and badges for their units. Now I was wondering, would the modifications to the game that the player has created as well as the customisations that are already in the software package are allowed to be submitted as artwork here on FA?

I just ask for a simple yes or no.

Thank you for your time.
Khaardun


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## Dragoneer (Dec 30, 2005)

Khaardun said:
			
		

> Now I was wondering, would the modifications to the game that the player has created as well as the customisations that are already in the software package are allowed to be submitted as artwork here on FA?
> 
> I just ask for a simple yes or no.


Yes, so long as the screenshot contains content created by you you can show it and post what you've done, your changes, etc.


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## RailRide (Dec 30, 2005)

I don't play SL, or any MMORPG. I don't have or even want, a "fursona", and never MUCKed because I get mental vapor lock at the thought of creating an anthropomorphic persona to represent me.

But I do have this _really, really_ bad habit of reading _all_ posts in a particular thread and picking out inconsistencies in the debate...



			
				yoshi987 said:
			
		

> So know the 2nd life client is being regarded as a 3d rendering tool. The client is exactly what it is created for making an avatar to get online to a 3D chat room like environment. Maya is certainly not as simplified. *But 2nd life is not a 3D tool*. So the analogy of Photoshop to MS Paint does not apply. *Be more like Yahoo Avatar creator to Photoshop*. Yes you can be very creative with Yahoo Avatar creator but it is not a photo manipulation tool it simple creates avatar for you IM windows. *I can't believe that 2nd life client is being compared to a 3d rendering tool*. The issue of bad art vs good art was never the case. Just grabbing pre generated things out of the 2nd life client was. While at the same time saying that is different from grabbing pre generated thing out of any other game.


(emphasis mine)
This caught my eye because I noted a previous post which appears to be from a SL user and seemed to answer the question quite clearly. Again, emphasis mine:


			
				zannah said:
			
		

> Uhm, because if you want to move beyond the *basic human avatar SL starts you out with*, those setting panels do you absolutely no good.  SL has built-in 3D rendering capabilities.  *Those furry avatars you see were built from scratch with shapes and textures (the available library doesn't have that much in the way of fur) to work over the basic rendered human form*.  It lets those of us who don't have and/or can't afford programs like Maya to build our own models (and IMHO, it's a heckuva lot easier to use for a visual person like me).  Yeah, you'll have the people who buy an avatar and do nothing to change it, but most of us take it further by custumizing every possible aspect, and building our own props and add-ons.  I can speak from personal experience when I say that is a LOT of work.  Hours of tweaking at the very least to get the effect you're looking for, and that's not even considering the time it takes to script and animate objects.  If I've spent four to six hours building and customizing my SL avatar and the props that go with her *(working from scratch, not pre-made objects)* I damn well want to show off what I've done.



The above quote was a direct response to a similar allegation made by the first poster I quoted. I did not see *yoshi987* reply to it, so I have to assume it was overlooked, since it direcly addressed his/her allegation that SL's customization amounted to little more than setting some sliders and picking some options off a menu.

What conclusion do I come to from reading all these posts? SL _has_ a 3-D tool. One whose output is only good for a single, online "game" of debatable quality, and whose limitations easily disqualify it as a commercially viable 3D renderer.

 But from reading *zannah's* post, it's clear to me that it _does_ allow you to build a character in 3D, from the ground up, without involving any sort of templates, menus or any 'canned' visual elements pre-created by the designers. 


			
				Second Life Website said:
			
		

> Create Anything
> 
> In Second Life you can create anything you can imagine with powerful, highly flexible building tools, using geometric primitives and a simple, intuitive interface. Build live, in real-time, right in Second Life - no separate tools or applications to buy or learn and no hassles with importing your work. Building is easy to learn, yet robust enough to inspire your creativity.
> 
> A powerful but fun-to-learn and use scripting language further enhances your creations by allowing you to add behaviors to the objects you build - sculpt a butterfly, then write a short chunk of code that lets it follow you around as you walk.


 (source: http://secondlife.com/whatis/create.php )



			
				SecondLife Website said:
			
		

> Internal Building System
> 
> Highly flexible building tools allow manipulation of geometric primitives in a simple interface. Stretch these ?prims? into new shapes, change their texture and physical qualities, link them to other prims. From this easy-to-learn process, create objects of all kinds and sizes, from a jeweled naval ring to a five hundred meter skyscraper.
> Importable Textures
> ...


  (source: http://secondlife.com/whatis/building.php )
 I can see that you can _also_ generate a generic character in SL without doing any 3D work at all. 


			
				SecondLife website said:
			
		

> Create an Avatar
> 
> Second Life is about personal expression and your avatar is the most personal expression of all. After all, an avatar is your persona in the virtual world. The picture below shows how easy it is to create your avatar. Despite offering almost infinite possibilities, the tool to personalize your avatar is very simple to use and allows you to change anything you like, from the tip of your nose to the tint of your skin. Don?t worry if it?s not perfect at first, you can change your look at any time.


 (source: http://secondlife.com/whatis/avatar.php )
But all that tells me is that you can go about avatar creation _either_ way, which means the issue of SL avatars as original artwork is _not_ the black-and-white issue the opposing factions want the reader to believe. The Photoshop/ MSPaint analogy is indeed valid. You can create  complex images with PS that are impossible to do with Paint. But both permit the creation of artwork from scratch. The "*Yahoo Avatar Creator*" that SL is being compared to sounds more like *Adobe PhotoDeluxe 1.0*, which contained no actual drawing tools (I know, because I've used it), only methods of tweaking pre-existing digital photographs. PD1.0/YAC is a valid comparison. SL-YAC isn't.

Now OTOH, posting 50 different views of the same character to me qualifies as abuse. Even if that character was built and rendered with a $10,000 application and took an entire server farm a week to render it.

Did I miss anyhing here? 'Cause it's taken an insane length of time to compose this.

---PCJ


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## ArrowTibbs (Dec 30, 2005)

Geez people, this is sort of silly to get worked up over...

SL is creating objects and avatars through use of an apparently crude, but effective, 3D modeling device. Yes, you can get Maya free, but that doesn't mean it's user friendly. I used my friend's professional grade Maya once and couldn't make heads or tails of it even with his help. I've never used SL, but from what people are saying it's much more user friendly. It's also creating shapes and forms pretty much from scratch.

I do play The Sims 2, and while I've made a Sim model that people I know even recognize as me, it's still not original content because I didn't add anything of my own to it besides using the toggle tools to reshape the face a little and change hair and eye color.

I like the idea of being allowed only one or two screencaps, and one desktop at a time. 

And in all honesty...Screaming at the admins and then screaming about how they're being rude back doesn't really make me see how immature the admins are being.


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## Grave (Dec 30, 2005)

ArrowTibbs said:
			
		

> And in all honesty...Screaming at the admins and then screaming about how they're being rude back doesn't really make me see how immature the admins are being.



No one was screaming at the admins. The admins came about with a snotty attitude right from the start. When they say shit like "this is the way it is if ya dont like it then fuck off" doesnt really show themselves in a professional light.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 30, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> ArrowTibbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heya, Grave!
Agree. Did seem to get a bit heated all-round back there and can certainly understand why users might be upset if they're personally impacted for reasons that aren't always clear.

Hang fire for a bit, please, and let's see whether there's some sort of halfway-house solution that might fit _most_ of the needs of the community and the individual, per Arshes & Dragoneer's post above.
(Again, sorry but can't make "promises" on behalf of those who have to cut code and maintain everything that's required for the overall community, here).


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## Anarchity (Dec 30, 2005)

> Photographs
> Users may not upload photos of real people in explicit and/or sexual situations.



I am a peirce artist, and do my own bodily peircings, would peircing art such as nipple rings be allowed to be posted if uner Adult rating?
 :?:


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## yoshi987 (Dec 30, 2005)

Thank you for at least considering making a specific rule on the matter. That was what I really wanted in the first place if it was going to be allowed. I do now see the point of if I spent hours on an avatar and uploaded allot of textures and wasn't aloud to upload my work I guess I would be upset too. But at the same time the issue of spam comes up? Also an admin was very snotty in the beginning if you read through all this. Um Dragoneer was trying to be fare to the modelers of 2nd life avatars but I don't think he was at first explaining his reasons behind it very clearly. But that?s ok the issue seems to be to me very clear. And the decision that needs to be made is not an easy one. Dragoneer has been acting in a professional manner as well as uncia um other admins have not. What ever you guys decide I am sure it will be in the best interest of FA. 

Issue at hand:

Is a 2nd life avatar original art and if so does the screen capture rule not apply. How to monitor if an avatar created in 2nd life client was created by the user from the ground up or just made from templates which really depend on the creator of the avatar. ( a fact that at first I didn't understand ). If allowed um should there be measures to keep spamming from happening. 

PS um sorry about the ums I just do that on IM and forums for some dumb reason it drives my friends crazy. A bad habit I guess. I try to stop it just slips out some times. And I will look for that furry that was previously mentioned in FA.


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## Turbine_Divinity (Dec 31, 2005)

Grave said:
			
		

> Im sorry, but alolowing SL screenshots but banning any other type of screenshot is utter BS.
> 
> SL is NOT walking artwork its complete and total shit! The act is EXACTLY the same as taking a screenshot of a car that you customized in a video game like need for speed.
> 
> So why isnt that allowed but badly rendered crappy looking 3d furries with 20 foot long cocks "yiffing" each other allowed?!?!?



Well, to be fair, in SL, you expressly own your own content, and can make real money off it. that's how Linden Labs intended it. So I imagine SL screenshots would be akin to just taking something you made in Maya or Max and making a render of it. Just because you haven't found the really good looking avatars oN Sl doesn't mean they don't exist. ;-)


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## Dragoneer (Dec 31, 2005)

Anarchity said:
			
		

> I am a peirce artist, and do my own bodily peircings, would peircing art such as nipple rings be allowed to be posted if uner Adult rating? :?:


Yes.


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## Victoria Viper (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm sure a question just like this one has been answered many a time, already, but this is kind of a long topic, and I really don't feel like sorting through the whole thing.

Anyway, I have an old picture of mine that predominantly features a character I drew and colored, but it uses a game screenshot as a background. Would I still be allowed to post this?

Thanks for any help, and sorry for the inconvenience.


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## Pinkuh (Dec 31, 2005)

Victoria Viper said:
			
		

> I'm sure a question just like this one has been answered many a time, already, but this is kind of a long topic, and I really don't feel like sorting through the whole thing.
> 
> Anyway, I have an old picture of mine that predominantly features a character I drew and colored, but it uses a game screenshot as a background. Would I still be allowed to post this?
> 
> Thanks for any help, and sorry for the inconvenience.



Yup ^_^ You can post it ^_^


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## Swampwulf (May 17, 2006)

*RE:*



			
				uncia2000 said:
			
		

> Dragoneer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I say yet once again, Greymuzzle, you are wise in many things.


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## Arshes Nei (May 17, 2006)

*RE:*



			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Anarchity said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The question is are they going to show photos of anatomy with said piercings. If so ...*cough* model release even if its their own body x.x


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