# Trouble Ticket Policy for Site Admins?



## Arshes Nei (Feb 3, 2011)

I'd just like to know when this policy will be going into effect?
As I stated before I was going to be more public on this issue starting February.
It is not fair to staff members whose primary function is to handle site matters to be taking the brunt of those not answering Trouble Tickets.

Even though it may be hypocritical to bring up this issue as I have been less active of late, I don't want to see the people I worked hard to train or bring up the ladder because I believe they wanted to help out be burned out by a matter that has been going on for far too long.

I still see the same names currently answering tickets to the ratio of idle admins that aren't.

Please note this isn't hate towards them because in the past they were doing their work, but there isn't some seniority here that everyone gets to slack off for years and not answer Trouble Tickets and the amount of TTs are increasing.

Thank You


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## Smelge (Feb 3, 2011)

Uh, did you mean to post this in the admin forum?


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## LizardKing (Feb 3, 2011)

This sounds jolly interesting


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## Xaerun (Feb 3, 2011)

Saved it
(moved, sorry if that was presumptuous of me)


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 3, 2011)

No this was meant for the public since it was announced publicly on Livejournal we'd have a policy.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 3, 2011)

FINALLY. Someone on FA Staff saying the SAME EXACT THING THAT I WAS BANNED FOR SAYING.

Now that it's staff that's saying it and not just me, Dragoneer, banning me AGAIN will only prove my point:

That all of your posts in January were lip service, and nothing will change. AGAIN.

It's the same crap you've been pulling since your takeover of FA.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 3, 2011)

To be fair, a lot has changed for the better since the changeover. However, I just want to know because I remember the post saying it on LJ and I keep hearing about it. It's just too long and that's not fair. So before the mudslinging of how BAD he is, maybe people should remember how much WORSE it was before he took over. I just don't want the stagnation.


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## Ratte (Feb 3, 2011)

I feel bad for not being able to do much about TT's lately, since it's either been school or sleep.  Gonna try to hit those back up this weekend.  Hopefully I won't be all giggly and stupid like today.  I hate getting adjusted to meds.

Sorry for not being able to do it, dudes/dudettes.  :[


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 3, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> To be fair, a lot has changed for the better since the changeover. However, I just want to know because I remember the post saying it on LJ and I keep hearing about it. It's just too long and that's not fair. So before the mudslinging of how BAD he is, maybe people should remember how much WORSE it was before he took over. I just don't want the stagnation.


 
Staff's treatment of us users sure has NOT improved. Unless you asspat staff, and NEVER question ANYTHING.

Not to mention that 'Neer FLAT OUT LIED when he banned me last time, stating that he did not know about the problem, WHEN I'VE BEEN BRINGING IT UP TO HIM FOR 2 YEARS.

It's also worth mentioning that the thread in which he lied to everyone as he banned me seems to be conveniently missing.

Most likely to cover up the fact that if anyone searched my posts, they'd see that I've been brining this problem up for 2 years, and he DID INDEED know about it, because he told me and I quote: "there is nothing wrong with the Trouble Ticket system, stop being impatient." as a reply to TTs for HARASSMENT that remained untouched for over HALF A YEAR.

'Neer lied then, Lied when he banned me, and lied when he said he was going to make staff more accountable and get more staff to do their DUTY AS FA STAFF.

As I've said before, Staff need to learn that being a staff member is more than getting to abuse your status. You actually have to pull your weight. If you cannot HELP FA BE A BETTER PLACE AND INSIST ON ABUSING YOUR POWERS, you should step down. You know who you are. And you know that your behaviors are unacceptable, yet you pull the same crap time after time. But Those who are the problem will never step down willingly, and that's the problem.

If you insist on being FA staff: PULL YOUR WEIGHT AND DO THE WORK INSTEAD OF ONLY ENJOYING YOUR POWER.

Banning those who question staff will not silence us. It just makes you look more like asshats.


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## Diocletian (Feb 3, 2011)

I have 2 open trouble tickets: 26 and 20 days with no answer  respectively. I asked one administrator if they could  handle these and they flat-out refused. I have had some trouble tickets  answered and it was the same few admins doing them every time; I have no complaint with their handling of things, but I fear that in the long term they may end up burnt out or disheartened. 

Some admins now state that they will not handle  an issue but that it be through trouble tickets and this may leave people in  a catch 22 where they cannot get their trouble ticket answered and nor  can they get an admin to answer the TT's by contacting them (as my experience was). 

I have seen suggestions to take on more admins to deal with the trouble tickets, but surely there are enough staff already(?): it's getting them working which is the issue. That comes back to a trouble ticket policy.

I would like to know if/when there will be a policy for requiring staff, as appropriate to their role, to answer trouble tickets. This will share them more equally and stop them piling up: a concrete date for this policy would be just the thing to inspire confidence in the trouble ticket situation being resolved, I think.

Also: is it official FA site policy that all issues which can be handled via trouble tickets be handled via trouble tickets? I think it makes perfect sense, but it ought to be stated somewhere prominent and the trouble tickets ought to be made more accessible I think, plus the aforementioned issues with them piling up.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 3, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> I have 2 open trouble tickets: 26 and 20 days with no answer  respectively. I asked one administrator if they could  handle these and they flat-out refused. I have had some trouble tickets  answered and it was the same few admins doing all the work and I have no complaint which how they did it, but I fear that in the long term they may end up burnt out or disheartened.
> 
> Some admins now state that they will not handle  an issue but that it be through trouble tickets and this may leave people in  a catch 22 where they cannot get their trouble ticket answered and nor  can they get an admin to answer them (as my experience was).



THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE DEALT WITH, WITH TICKETS EXCEEDING SIX MONTHS.

The only reason why they still are not open is because the user was permabanned for a completely separate reason.

Otherwise, the TTs would STILL be open.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 3, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> Some admins now state that they will not handle  an issue but that it be through trouble tickets and this may leave people in  a catch 22 where they cannot get their trouble ticket answered and nor  can they get an admin to answer them (as my experience was).
> 
> Also: is it official FA site policy that all issues which can be handled via trouble tickets be handled via trouble tickets? I think it makes perfect sense, but it ought to be stated somewhere prominent and the trouble tickets ought to be made more accessible I think, plus the aforementioned issues with them piling up.


 
I have stated I will not answer notes and to file a TT, this is because I do not want to handle it through notes as it lacks transparency with admin actions. Though admins can see notes that were "direct url" (not some notes lookup) it lacks the process the TT system has and features that should eventually included. Some handlings do need staff to review things over, so this is why I have stated to file TTs. 

I also don't really like reading notes on FA because people have a problem and there was a problem in the past with broken quotes. Things would get muddied up and confusing. There's also user error making some quotes impossible to read. In addition it causes confusion because people are getting PMed and stepping on toes instead of one central place for tickets to be viewed.

It should be FA policy and prominently stated as well.

Ratte, you are not so much the problem as there have been staff members on board for years now not handling them. People taking breaks is fine. Sitting around with a status and not answering TTs for excessively long periods of time is not acceptable. That's the burden I'm referring to. 

redfoxnudetunes, can I say that your approach isn't the best one. The reason is there is a lot of "Woe is me" and mudslinging at this time.


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## Ratte (Feb 3, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Ratte, you are not so much the problem as there have been staff members on board for years now not handling them. People taking breaks is fine. Sitting around with a status and not answering TTs for excessively long periods of time is not acceptable. That's the burden I'm referring to.


 
Christ, that's a tad excessive.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 3, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Sitting around with a status and not answering TTs for excessively long periods of time is not acceptable. That's the burden I'm referring to.



Something that I have brought up quite a few times in the past.




> redfoxtunes, can I say that your approach isn't the best one. The reason is there is a lot of "Woe is me" and mudslinging at this time.



I have been BANNED TWICE for bringing up valid questions on this subject.

It's not "woe is me."

It's being tired of 'Neer banning people, or Carenath trying to keep certain users from posting without showing up as a ban, when questioning the lies and half-answers and excuses while NOTHING GETS WORKED ON.



Ratte said:


> Christ, that's a tad excessive.


 
And THAT'S the reason why I'm pissed off with much of FA staff's actions.

Nothing.
Gets.
Done.

Just lies, excuses and abuse of power.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 3, 2011)

It's not because you brought up the subject it's how you're responding.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 3, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> It's not because you brought up the subject it's how you're responding.



No, I was indeed banned for bringing it up. I'd link the thread to you, but it's missing. Either hidden by 'Neer, or just hard deleted.

I typed practically the exact words you did. then I got banned for bringing it up, in the proper thread, as "severe thread derailment." I was banned because 'Neer didn't want to answer to the fact that he's lying.

So, sorry if I am responding a little strong. But I'm tired of the bull from certain staff members who refuse to make FA a better place, and constantly cause us users problems, abuse their status and KNOWINGLY break rules, and not pull their share of the work.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Quit making this topic about you so I can actually get something done, you're derailing it.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> so I can actually get something done.


 
Good luck with that. It's been a problem for over 2 years, and 'Neer REFUSES to do anything about it.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 4, 2011)

after a month, I close the TT myself as really it seems to be pointless after then(usually someone else got there first and theirs got done or user did the fix themselves), I think only one reached 3 months so I'll probably bump it up to that. you guys are doing what you can, but yea, you really need to know whats the policy is unless its like most things on FA "we are working on it" thus we switch to Valve time...so I'll expect a policy in 11 years? :V


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## Cyanide_tiger (Feb 4, 2011)

I've only ever had to file one TT, and I couldn't tell you how long it took for a response because I honestly forgot I had filed it after the problem ended up fixing itself after a bit. But, to propose a constructive idea as a possible solution, perhaps the admins and staff should be assigned a monthly quota of some sort with repercussions given for those that choose not to meet it, and exceptions for leave-of-absence, and hectic times like school and whatnot. That way you can set a number higher than those that are coming in and help mill down the pile so that things don't go unanswered for months, or even weeks, at a time. If you don't see this as being pheasible though, no hard feelings here.. just trying to help out.


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 4, 2011)

Thank you, Arshes. What you say there is exactly why I proposed a public stat page like what Yiffstar used to have over submissions in the moderation queue.

On a related side-note, there's at least two promised policy documents that users are still waiting for; the mentioned admin code of conduct and the expanded policy on the underage porn rules.


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## Fay V (Feb 4, 2011)

Is there a certain kind of TT that takes so long? Most of the TTs I send are tracing or other art stealing issues and it takes a matter of days.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Fay V said:


> Is there a certain kind of TT that takes so long? Most of the TTs I send are tracing or other art stealing issues and it takes a matter of days.


 
Policy change ones are harder when they need clarification. I remember quite a few SL (Second Life) tickets sitting for a long time.
Other reasons a ticket may take too long

1. Interface issue. The way tickets set up are harder to track sometimes which ones to work on. 
2. User issue. If users are sending problems that are vague or hard to understand they are less likely to be answered.
3. Multiple reports on the same issue. Sometimes a decision was made but wasn't in their favor but the ticket wasn't closed - but other reports of a similar nature were.


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## LizardKing (Feb 4, 2011)

How are the tickets actually assigned anyway?

Looking at some of the ones I've submitted, it seems like each person has their own queue that tickets get randomly assigned to, rather than a single queue that everyone works on. 

I say that because most of mine have been done fairly quickly, except 2 that took two months, that were then dealt with by the same person. They were just as simple and straightforward as the others. Tickets dealt with by other people were fine. Seems an unlikely coincidence.


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm on another site and they have what is called an "Issue Hub". It's just like the trouble ticket system but the user can choose whether or not they want their issue to be public or private.
Public TT's would be beneficial so people can look through and see if someone has already reported what they reported, and it would cut down on the amount of TT's

But then again that's just madness and would never ever be implemented on FA.
Remember back in November? The uhmmmmm ... "Cub Porn Ban"? When's that ever gonna be put into place?


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I'm on another site and they have what is called an "Issue Hub". It's just like the trouble ticket system but the user can choose whether or not they want their issue to be public or private.
> Public TT's would be beneficial so people can look through and see if someone has already reported what they reported, and it would cut down on the amount of TT's



Something I've been saying that should be implemented for 2 years now.



> But then again that's just madness and would never ever be implemented on FA.
> Remember back in November? The uhmmmmm ... "Cub Porn Ban"? When's that ever gonna be put into place?


 
The rule is in place, but it's SELECTIVELY enforced. Meaning, as per usual, some users can get away with doing anything they want, because they are friends of staff.


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Something I've been saying that should be implemented for 2 years now.
> 
> 
> 
> The rule is in place, but it's SELECTIVELY enforced. Meaning, as per usual, some users can get away with doing anything they want, because they are friends of staff.


ehhh I don't think it's in place. I heard it was put off for a little bit. AKA the FA mods love their kiddyporn and don't want to see it go
I see galleries still full of CP


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## Verin Asper (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> ehhh I don't think it's in place. I heard it was put off for a little bit. AKA the FA mods love their kiddyporn and don't want to see it go
> I see galleries still full of CP


 and most likely no one really reported em cause they all expect someone else to do it.
if you see something against the AUP or TOS, then report it even if there is a chance someone else have, there is also chance NO ONE have.

Most who kept their gallery up of Cub porn didnt want to delete em to allow their fans to download em, but also probably left FA too.


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 4, 2011)

The ban is in place, afaik.
Reported the galleries?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> How are the tickets actually assigned anyway?
> 
> Looking at some of the ones I've submitted, it seems like each person has their own queue that tickets get randomly assigned to, rather than a single queue that everyone works on.


 
No see, that's the problem. There are people who work more on tickets than others. While there were the same people that may end up doing issues he/she can easily handle, there are others that aren't responding.

It's pretty much a queue all of us can see, some though are specialized because it's easier but the assumption that one is handling their department is incorrect, it means some of these mods are working more than others. This is fine to a degree because it's volunteer so if someone has more time to work on tickets, it's going to happen. It's when I see them on the IRC or active elsewhere not answering tickets where it becomes a problem especially if they still have admin status

Right now I see the following on a consistent basis

Warmock
Surgat
Summercat (new)
Nylak (new)
Witchiebunny
Pinkuh (retired from main site)
Ratte (somewhat new)
ArielMT (new)
Xaerun

We have some mods that have mentioned they'll be out on leave which is fine. 

Some I see occasionally
Kyoujin
Dragoneer
yak
net-cat
Carenath

The rest... I don't really see...


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

I didn't report the galleries because I read the ban was postponed.


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## Aden (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> No, I was indeed banned for bringing it up. I'd link the thread to you, but it's missing. Either hidden by 'Neer, or just hard deleted.
> 
> I typed practically the exact words you did. then I got banned for bringing it up, in the proper thread, as "severe thread derailment." I was banned because 'Neer didn't want to answer to the fact that he's lying.
> 
> So, sorry if I am responding a little strong. But I'm tired of the bull from certain staff members who refuse to make FA a better place, and constantly cause us users problems, abuse their status and KNOWINGLY break rules, and not pull their share of the work.


 
Well, right now YOU'RE RESPONDING LIKE THIS. Everyone has to switch over from REGULAR reading to DRAMATIC CAPS LOCK reading and it's REALLY DIFFICULT. You REFUSE to just type in lowercase and KNOWINGLY break rules of typography just to try to make a point. I just woke up. I can't deal with that. My eyes are screaming for a break.

But it's just.
not.
changing.

If you cannot HELP THIS THREAD BE EASIER TO READ INSTEAD OF INSISTING ON ABUSING YOUR CAPS LOCK POWERS, then you should step down from commenting this instant.

_Anyway_~

Now that that's over with, I do think what happened to you is stupid and needs more oversight. I suggested that bans and their reasons be made public a little while ago, and while there was some support it didn't really go anywhere. I think the easiest thing to change in the immediate future would be a better and more open appeal process - even when the decision being appealed was made by dragoneer.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I didn't report the galleries because I read the ban was postponed.


 no, the ban wasnt postponed, its active, just we have a vague version to use, not the outlined one which we would probably never get.


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## Armaetus (Feb 4, 2011)

This is something that aggravated me for quite some time, I've had even minor TT issues go untouched for 3+ months and then go "fuck it, they don't care" so I end up closing it. Completely unacceptable for a team of 21 people, and based on this...I hardly ever or infrequently see any administrative actions carried out by the following admins:

Bijoux de'Foxxe
Glaide
Kyoujin
Rhainor
Surgat
Wicht
Silver R. Wolfe

So what exactly are these people doing besides having a nice shiny spot on the Staff page? The folks I commonly see carrying out TTs are generally Ahkhana, Warmock, Pinkuh, Irreverant, Witchiebunny, Xaerun, Ratte and sometimes Summercat.

To my viewpoint, ALL ADMINS should be obligated to deal with TTs, not a select few who don't give two shits just because of how trivial the issue might be. They should be answered regardless of priority..And don't get me started on how lazy and/or inept the "Technical Staff" members have been over the past 3 years regarding the ancient codebase the site is built upon!


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> no, the ban wasnt postponed, its active, just we have a vague version to use, not the outlined one which we would probably never get.


 
I srs read it was.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Aden said:


> _Anyway_~
> 
> Now that that's over with, I do think what happened to you is stupid and needs more oversight. I suggested that bans and their reasons be made public a little while ago, and while there was some support it didn't really go anywhere. I think the easiest thing to change in the immediate future would be a better and more open appeal process - even when the decision being appealed was made by dragoneer.



What he claims to happen was stupid. What he was banned for is what you were complaining about.


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## Stratelier (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I see galleries still full of CP


You can be almost guaranteed that the mods/admins don't take time out of their real-life schedules to deliberately hunt down and remove CP from the site.  That's what the TT system is meant for in the first place -- FA is simply too darn huge to do a full inspection like that, they rely on user reports.  If it's not reported, no action gets taken.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I srs read it was.


 and srsly its not, they postponed it for 21(or less I dont fully remember) days or so for the cub porn artist to gather all their stuff and delete their gallery before it did become active.


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> and srsly its not, they postponed it for 21(or less I dont fully remember) days or so for the cub porn artist to gather all their stuff and delete their gallery before it did become active.


 
No, after they said "21 days and then we get rid of it", I read "oops nvm we're putting it off till a later date"


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## Smelge (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Clayton said:
> 
> 
> > I'm on another site and they have what is called  an "Issue Hub". It's just like the trouble ticket system but the user  can choose whether or not they want their issue to be public or private.
> ...



Oh yeah. Look how moronic half the users are now. You really think people will bother to see if somethings already been reported, or are they just going to post a thread with no relevant information on something that's already been reported a dozen times on the first page.

The ideal way to deal with it, would be for every submission and journal to have a report button. Someone clicks it, selects the reason, and a TT gets opened using the submission or journal code. Any further reports on the same code adds an extra mark to what the admins see, so even if 50 people reported something, there would be one report containing all the additional info people added to the TT, and the number bumps it up the priority list.


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

Smelge said:


> The ideal way to deal with it, would be for every submission and journal to have a report button. Someone clicks it, selects the reason, and a TT gets opened using the submission or journal code. Any further reports on the same code adds an extra mark to what the admins see, so even if 50 people reported something, there would be one report containing all the additional info people added to the TT, and the number bumps it up the priority list.


Perfect. I reported something and my TT is still sitting there unanswered.. yet the submission is already deleted. It's just a waste of space currently.


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## Aden (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Perfect. I reported something and my TT is still sitting there unanswered.. yet the submission is already deleted. It's just a waste of space currently.


 
In that case you should mark that TT closed


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## Smelge (Feb 4, 2011)

Aden said:


> In that case you should mark that TT closed


 
See, another advantage of lumping all reports for individual submissions, is that if action is taken on it, all the relevant TT's close.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> No, after they said "21 days and then we get rid of it", I read "oops nvm we're putting it off till a later date"


 weird cause folks are reporting the cub porn and its being removed...so I would expect or think its currently active and they didnt tell us it was.


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> weird cause folks are reporting the cub porn and its being removed...so I would expect or think its currently active and they didnt tell us it was.


 
I wasn't told it was currently active :\


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Bijoux de'Foxxe
> Glaide
> Kyoujin
> Rhainor
> ...


 
Surgat regularly handles TTs I've seen it consistently. 
Surgat is also my "backup" Admin or I consider my 2nd in command on the forums (because I trust him to handle matters on the forums especially since I've been on limited time), so he is doing two things. That's why I'm ok if admins have more purpose than being just a site admin may not answer as many TTs.

However, many are just site admins, they're not technical ones or a head forum admin...and I have a problem with that when they're not even doing that single function as a site admin.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Smelge said:


> See, another advantage of lumping all reports for individual submissions, is that if action is taken on it, all the relevant TT's close.


 
Yeah it's not like it hasn't been discussed before even with admins, it's just I haven't seen it implemented. 
I just don't know if it was due to time on scripting it into the system integrated, or just that may take a major overhaul because of how the site is programmed.

I don't want to step on any other toes (yak) and see if he has a more direct answer.


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## Volkodav (Feb 4, 2011)

Witchiebunny did the best at answering my TT's out of all the admins. She answered the most.


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## Smelge (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I don't want to step on any other toes (yak) and see if he has a more direct answer.


 
On the contrary. I find that when dealing with someone who isn't doing their job fast enough, stomping on their toes heavily and repeatedly usually works.


[edit]Actually, while I'm at it, I noticed that the other day Dragoneer removed something from my gallery citing it as a screenshot. I queried it, pointing out that yes it originally was a screenshot, but I did take the time to edit it and animate portions of it, sort of making it no longer a screenshot.

Imagine my surprise when the PM got completely ignored.

Is it FA policy to just ignore people querying stuff if they feel a wrong decision has been made or something?


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## Eevee (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I just don't know if it was due to time on scripting it into the system integrated, or just that may take a major overhaul because of how the site is programmed.


If the ticket system is causing pain: scrap it.  Get a real issue tracker.

It's not ideal, but FA barely has the resources to support its actual functionality, let alone reinvent the wheel just for customer support.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 4, 2011)

Clayton said:


> I wasn't told it was currently active :\


 well its still in the AUP, so I would assume its active

On Trouble Tickets, I often check back on em to see if they were worked on already by someone else each month if its still open to just close it.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Smelge said:


> On the contrary. I find that when dealing with someone who isn't doing their job fast enough, stomping on their toes heavily and repeatedly usually works.


 
No, I'm saying I don't want to step on toes as in speak on behalf of someone who may have a better answer. It's often a problem where someone may half hear or misunderstand a statement.

As far as your other question, it may have not looked like enough content was modified to still be suitable for AUP or he hasn't really had a chance to reply though he's seen your message. However, I don't know because I only have information on your side, and as with every story there is always more than one.


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## RTDragon (Feb 4, 2011)

So that might explain the majority of TT not being answered as well as reopened ones.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> What he claims to happen was stupid. What he was banned for is what you were complaining about.



Bullshit. I was banned for calling 'Neer out on a lie. 



CerbrusNL said:


> The ban is in place, afaik.
> Reported the galleries?


 
How? file a TT?

Yeah. That's going to work.

It will be ignored like every other TT.

Scrap the TT system.

I have said FROM THE BEGINNING that it doesn't work.

Put in a tracker that does. Oh, but wait. That would require some actual brains to think up a solution instead of just saying "I'm working on it" and DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Seriously, this is not a new issue. It's the same issue that has been brought up over and over again, with absolutely NO change, for 2 years.

Nothing will be done about the TT system. He had 2 years to fix it, and it was only because I TRICKED him into admitting the problem in the LJ that he even ADMITTED that there was a problem. And then he only gave lip service as to him "fixing" the TT issue.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Eevee said:


> If the ticket system is causing pain: scrap it.  Get a real issue tracker.
> 
> It's not ideal, but FA barely has the resources to support its actual functionality, let alone reinvent the wheel just for customer support.


 
Not it's not ideal, and I know you were around when that suggestion was made too. I remember some research being done into TT systems then was dropped.

If anything the hacking should have been a real wake up call how much we need a better system, and admins willing to do the work.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Not it's not ideal, and I know you were around when that suggestion was made too.



Then you can understand my frustrations on this subject. 'Neer himself has told me here in the forums (the thread is missing) that there is nothing wrong with the TT system. It took the hacking for me to trick him into even admitting the problem.

Staff have told me to stop bitching about things and provide ideas to better FA if I have a problem with things.

I have. SEVERAL TIMES. It all goes ignored.



> I remember some research being done into TT systems then was dropped.



Again, because 'Neer doens't actually DO anything. He just says that he will, and nothing gets done.



> If anything the hacking should have been a real wake up call how much we need a better system, and admins willing to do the work.


 
It should have. But, as per usual, 'Neer has proven himself completely incompetent in terms of user's security, or fixing anything on FA that needs to be fixed.


So, yeah. I'm pissed, and my posts reflect as such. This should have been taken care of LONG ago.


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## Stratelier (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> No it's not ideal, and I know you were around when that suggestion was made too. I remember some research being done into TT systems then was dropped.


The biggest flaw I see in the TT system is it's barely anything more than a staff-collective forum/PM system.  Being unable to internally link a TT to the user/submission it applies to means that it's impossible to apply query optimizations based on that data (not the least of which being identifying/dealing with duplicate reports).


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons... We get it. You are pissed. You spout the same problem over and over, hardly rewording it each time you post. I imagine this is how you approached 'Neer. Beating a dead horse gets you no where, makes you tired, and look like a fool. Raging at the screen will get you noticed alright- in a bad way. People are less likely to listen to someone raging over a subject rather than calmly taking the subject in strides.

As far as the TT goes the only problem I have had with the site seem to correct itself though I wonder if it is just my end or if everyone else has a messed up commissions thing. It reads as some sort of error. I thought about TT this but felt it better to ask if everyone else had the same message.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Stratadrake said:


> The biggest flaw I see in the TT system is it's barely anything more than a staff-collective forum/PM system.  Being unable to internally link a TT to the user/submission it applies to means that it's impossible to apply query optimizations based on that data (not the least of which being identifying/dealing with duplicate reports).


 
I definitely agree with this and this was why looking at other TT systems was proposed previously.

Personally I like how DA has TTs set up at least from the user end. I suppose I could bug Angelo someday to give me a tour of the place since I'm actually within their vicinity but then again they're being paid to handle TTs and that site is just now making money - I believe as of 3 years ago, due to ads and subscription accounts. Most people who do start companies expect returns after about 10 years, with some internet companies being sooner. DA has been around for just about that long.

However, most of this needs to be solved with dead weight admins that are still around. There needs to be a senior status I suppose on the site, thank them for the good work and release them.  Having them around this long doing nothing does harm the mentality of those members that come in new and see the same thing over and over again.


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## SkieFire (Feb 4, 2011)

Definitely sounds like there needs to be someone cracking the whip and removing dead wood.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> People are less likely to listen to someone raging over a subject rather than calmly taking the subject in strides.



I did that. 2 years ago. I was just lied to by 'Neer and Yak, being told that I was being impatient for not liking waiting over 3 months for a Harassment TT to be looked at.

I tried being calm about it. I was lied to, as were everyone else. It was only when I started to step on toes that other people started to notice the same thing and start to question the problem. It took being rude for 'Neer to finally ADMIT that there was a problem.

And it's not beating a dead horse if the problem has NOT been solved.



Arshes Nei said:


> However, most of this needs to be solved with dead weight admins that are still around. There needs to be a senior status I suppose on the site, thank them for the good work and release them.  Having them around this long doing nothing does harm the mentality of those members that come in new and see the same thing over and over again.



HA! That's never going to happen.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> I did that. 2 years ago. I was just lied to by 'Neer and Yak, being told that I was being impatient for not liking waiting over 3 months for a Harassment TT to be looked at.
> 
> I tried being calm about it. I was lied to, as were everyone else. It was only when I started to step on toes that other people started to notice the same thing and start to question the problem. It took being rude for 'Neer to finally ADMIT that there was a problem.
> 
> ...


 
You throw the word "lied" around a lot. Normally people who bawww about others lying aren't being entirely honest themselves. I don't know much about 'Neer though I highly doubt he would get his scales in a tuff over you bringing up a legitimate point with a reasonable attitude. I also doubt he would ban you over bringing up a problem; however, if you brought said problem up over and over again with an increasingly poor attitude- he had every right to ban you. You should be banned if you cannot get it through your skull that you post the same shit every time you click "post quick reply". This...This is you and your constant post


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## Heimdal (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> You throw the word "lied" around a lot. Normally people who bawww about others lying aren't being entirely honest themselves. I don't know much about 'Neer though I highly doubt he would get his scales in a tuff over you bringing up a legitimate point with a reasonable attitude. I also doubt he would ban you over bringing up a problem; however, if you brought said problem up over and over again with an increasingly poor attitude- he had every right to ban you. You should be banned if you cannot get it through your skull that you post the same shit every time you click "post quick reply". This...This is you and your constant post


 
I support redfoxnudetoons' level of pissed bitching. It doesn't need to  be reworded, it just needs to be given a real solution. I've seen  everyone agree with redfoxnudetoon, that there's a problem with TT's AND  it's been a problem for a long time, yet they berate him for not being  calm enough about it. Asking nicely sounds like the dumber method of  handling this, actually. Considering FA's track record, making a big  scene has consistently been the only motivator.

Seriously, I don't know what you're trying to say. You're bitching at redfox for posting something you don't deny, just that it's posted in a way you don't agree with? Blaming an angry user for being an angry user is a big fucking step backwards.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> I support redfoxnudetoons' level of pissed bitching. It doesn't need to  be reworded, it just needs to be given a real solution. I've seen  everyone agree with redfoxnudetoon, that there's a problem with TT's AND  it's been a problem for a long time, yet they berate him for not being  calm enough about it. Asking nicely sounds like the dumber method of  handling this, actually. Considering FA's track record, making a big  scene has consistently been the only motivator.
> 
> Seriously, I don't know what you're trying to say. You're bitching at redfox for posting something you don't deny, just that it's posted in a way you don't agree with? Blaming an angry user for being an angry user is a big fucking step backwards.


 
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Consider FA is free and the people are not getting paid to do the site work.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> I support redfoxnudetoons' level of pissed bitching. It doesn't need to  be reworded, it just needs to be given a real solution. I've seen  everyone agree with redfoxnudetoon, that there's a problem with TT's AND  it's been a problem for a long time, yet they berate him for not being  calm enough about it. Asking nicely sounds like the dumber method of  handling this, actually. Considering FA's track record, making a big  scene has consistently been the only motivator.
> 
> Seriously, I don't know what you're trying to say. You're bitching at redfox for posting something you don't deny, just that it's posted in a way you don't agree with? Blaming an angry user for being an angry user is a big fucking step backwards.



Seeing as I am "not authorized" to "This" what you posted, let me just say thank you for getting the point, and showing the hypocrisy of that other post. 



dinosaurdammit said:


> You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Consider FA is free and the people are not getting paid to do the site work.


 
Again, I tried that approach, and it did not work. Being rude and abrasive seems to be the only thing that will even get ANY response on the problem.

FA's track record is crap. It took a MASSIVE hack for 'Neer to close a security hole that Eevee told him about a LONG time ago. And it's apparently still not closed all the way. But because neither one of us asspat and stroke 'Neer's massive ego, He won't listen to reason. Only through this constant badgering of the problem does any knowledge get brought to light besides "I'm working on it," Which he is mots certainly NOT.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> I support redfoxnudetoons' level of pissed bitching. It doesn't need to  be reworded, it just needs to be given a real solution.
> 
> Seriously, I don't know what you're trying to say. You're bitching at redfox for posting something you don't deny, just that it's posted in a way you don't agree with? Blaming an angry user for being an angry user is a big fucking step backwards.


 
I don't because everyone focuses on him than the matter at hand.

It's not constructive, it's more posts about his bitching than the actual problem. Then he just reposts the same thing or blowing it off where it's frustrating. He needs to sit out and finally let others handle it. Obviously his method is not getting through.


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## Accountability (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Consider FA is free and the people are not getting paid to do the site work.


 
The "FA is free, people aren't getting paid" excuse for work not getting done is an extremely poor and not well thought out argument. Think of other things that are run by volunteers. Animal shelters. Soup kitchens. Churches. The list goes on. "I didn't feel like feeding the cats today!" or "The homeless don't need soup today! I don't feel like making it!" wouldn't fly and you'd quickly find yourself being told that you're services are no longer needed. If you take a volunteer job, you're going to be expected to preform the actions of said job. It's as simple as that.


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## Ricky (Feb 4, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Think of other things that are run by volunteers. Animal shelters. Soup kitchens. Churches. The list goes on. "I didn't feel like feeding the cats today!" or "The homeless don't need soup today! I don't feel like making it!" wouldn't fly and you'd quickly find yourself being told that you're services are no longer needed. If you take a volunteer job, you're going to be expected to preform the actions of said job. It's as simple as that.


 
That's just *a bit* of a strawman, there.

Actually, scratch that.  On second thought, starving furries of their porn _kinda is_ like not feeding the homeless.

Or something :roll:


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Accountability said:


> The "FA is free, people aren't getting paid" excuse for work not getting done is an extremely poor and not well thought out argument. Think of other things that are run by volunteers. Animal shelters. Soup kitchens. Churches. The list goes on. "I didn't feel like feeding the cats today!" or "The homeless don't need soup today! I don't feel like making it!" wouldn't fly and you'd quickly find yourself being told that you're services are no longer needed. If you take a volunteer job, you're going to be expected to preform the actions of said job. It's as simple as that.


 
I highly doubt anyone is going to starve or otherwise be malnourished if FA takes its time to get around to problems. I am honestly content with things taking time to get fixed. They get fixed eventually and while most people have lost patience while I can sit on a bucket in the woods by myself for 8 hours and be as content as waiting on a problem to get fixed on FA. Sure it is a little annoying sometimes but it is a free site- if you don't like how things are handled you aren't losing any money over it. If you don't like how it is run MAKE YOUR OWN. Simple as that.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Ok, I'm going to go back to the original problem this post is about. Admins not answering TTs.

We have admins I've already listed who I've seen consistently answer tickets.
I even listed those I've seen occasionally though, one of them is really rarely in the past few years.

It doesn't take rocket science to put 2 and 2 together of who is answering and who is not given we have an FA page of current staff members. Combine that with people seeing who is answering their tickets.

How long is it going to take?
What kind of pressure does it take to get staff to answer tickets?
There is no consequence right now.
Do we need people who figured out who is really not answering tickets leaving shouts, posting names?

The current state is not acceptable. While having a written policy in place is going to help set it in stone, why are we still letting that stop any actions against those who feel better than answering some TTs?

It was interesting how quickly those members went through to get their adminship account, but still can't answer a TT?


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Ok, I'm going to go back to the original problem this post is about. Admins not answering TTs.
> 
> We have admins I've already listed who I've seen consistently answer tickets.
> I even listed those I've seen occasionally though, one of them is really rarely in the past few years.
> ...


 
Is there anything some of us can do to help the site? I honestly have nothing to do all day but lurk the internet. If there was a way I could be of use I'd be all in. As for the time it takes for a TT to be answered what would you say is too long?


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Obviously his method is not getting through.


 
Being nice about it has caused the problem to continue to exist for 2 years.

It's thanks to my bitching that more and more users have become aware of the problem, which makes it harder for 'Neer to ignore the userbase.

As you can see, being nice didn't work. Being rude is having SOME effect, because at least he acknowledged there was a problem because of it. Unfortunately he still isn't getting enough users to get pissed off about the lack of action.

The time for being nice has long since ended. My method has actually HELPED get more people to know about a 2 year and running issue that 'Neer refuses to fix. And the more people get pissed like me, the less he will be able to hide behind his excuses and lies of "I'm working on it."




Arshes Nei said:


> It doesn't take rocket science to put 2 and 2 together of who is answering and who is not given we have an FA page of current staff members. Combine that with people seeing who is answering their tickets.
> 
> How long is it going to take?
> What kind of pressure does it take to get staff to answer tickets?
> ...


 
_How long is it going to take?_ When enough users are sick of the same old crap.

_What kind of pressure does it take to get staff to answer ticketes_? Enough of the users standing up against this crap.

_Do we need people who figured out who is really not answering tickets leaving shouts, posting names?_ FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS YES.

_why are we still letting that stop any actions against those who feel better than answering some TTs?_ Because Neer lets them do as they please.

_It was interesting how quickly those members went through to get their adminship account, but still can't answer a TT?_ Because Neer is not a good leader.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Is there anything some of us can do to help the site? I honestly have nothing to do all day but lurk the internet. If there was a way I could be of use I'd be all in. As for the time it takes for a TT to be answered what would you say is too long?


 
For the user, it's a disservice to keep staff members not pulling their weight. As a user when mod auditions are open on the forums you're free to apply. Forums have become a good training ground for mods to work up the site.

But you see even if you're answering tickets, just going by the scenario of those volunteering, it doesn't eliminate Paper Badge admins - those enjoying the stats and not working on TTs.

That's why I want it stopped. I am the one who primarily works with mods (as a head staff member) so that they can work their way up to be site admins.

This is not a college sorority where the Hazing process is handling TTs and seniors get to lounge around. ALLl staff members who are mainly site admins should be answering them.


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## Holsety (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Being nice about it has caused the problem to continue to exist for 2 years.


 And being a dick about it has caused you to be ignored for 2 years. Or however long it is you have been a dick :V

There is a huge difference between being a massive pansy and being civil.


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## Aden (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Being nice about it has caused the problem to continue to exist for 2 years.


 
Dude, _I agree with what you're saying_ and I still think you're being a really god damn annoying person.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Holsety said:


> And being a dick about it has caused you to be ignored for 2 years. Or however long it is you have been a dick :V
> 
> There is a huge difference between being a massive pansy and being civil.


 
I was civil, for 6 months of being fed lies and being told that waiting in excess of 3-6 months for a Harassment TT TO BE LOOKED AT was being impatient. Then I started to be a dick about it, because 'Neer and Yak are massive dicks themselves.

I WAS civil at first. That doesn't work with the Senior staff, because they think they know better than everyone else, and tell people to FUCK OFF. (Literally. They literally have posted for users beside myself to go fuck off.) That's being a real dick, telling users to fuck off, then ask for money from people.



Aden said:


> Dude, _I agree with what you're saying_ and I still think you're being a really god damn annoying person.


 
Whatever it takes to get this problem SOLVED.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Would it be possible to also redo the FA Wiki because it used to answer a lot of TT questions. Last I checked it was wiped clean of information. If common questions and common TT problems were posted with solutions I think it would cut down on the amount of TT in general. I have seen some post on the forum usually get their questions answered and do not have to refer to a TT because someone had the answer. Is there a way you could archive old TT that were solved along with the answer so that there is less confusion should something small go wrong.


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## Smelge (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> my I My me I me me me I me


 
There's the TL;DR version, for anyone with a lack of patience.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Would it be possible to also redo the FA Wiki because it used to answer a lot of TT questions. Last I checked it was wiped clean of information. If common questions and common TT problems were posted with solutions I think it would cut down on the amount of TT in general. I have seen some post on the forum usually get their questions answered and do not have to refer to a TT because someone had the answer. Is there a way you could archive old TT that were solved along with the answer so that there is less confusion should something small go wrong.


 
I'm pretty sure that was suggested a year ago, and shot down by Yak, like everything else as being "unfeasible."


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## Holsety (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> I was civil, for 6 months of being fed lies and being told that waiting in excess of 3-6 months for a Harassment TT TO BE LOOKED AT was being impatient. Then I started to be a dick about it, because 'Neer and Yak are massive dicks themselves.
> 
> I WAS civil at first. That doesn't work with the Senior staff, because they think they know better than everyone else, and tell people to FUCK OFF. (Literally. They literally have posted for users beside myself to go fuck off.) That's being a real dick, telling users to fuck off, then ask for money from people.
> 
> ...


BAWWW THEY WERE MEAN TO ME SO I'M GONNA BE MEAN BACK is all anyone can see when you post, all you do is come off as a spoiled child throwing a tantrum rather than someone who actually cares to see real changes made.


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## Fay V (Feb 4, 2011)

I had a thought. I don't know how helpful it is, it doesn't change that we have dead weight but it may help the admins that do work. 

Basically one might consider a group of sorters. People that look at the TTs and sort them. Because we don't have them auto attached to an image, these sorters can group TTS on one incident, or one submission. 
These volunteers have less power and can't remove pieces or infract others, but could maybe close a TT if the submission has been erased, or send a note that the TT has been grouped so people know that at least it's not lost in a pile of "To Do" 
So when the admins have time they can see the groups and deal with the group for submission X, and wont have to wort or anything.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Holsety said:


> BAWWW THEY WERE MEAN TO ME SO I'M GONNA BE MEAN BACK is all anyone can see when you post, all you do is come off as a spoiled child throwing a tantrum rather than someone who actually cares to see real changes made.


 
Being a dick is the only thing that Neer will respond to. Everything else he simply ignores.


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## Smelge (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Being a dick is the only thing that Neer will respond to. Everything else he simply ignores.


 
Gosh, it's amazing how much communicating he's doing with you right now isn't it. This thread is positively brimming over with Dragoneer. Thank you for doing a service for all furries by being a loud-mouthed dick. Because it seems to be working so fucking well right here.


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## Fay V (Feb 4, 2011)

can we stop that bickering. it's just getting off topic. make a new thread if you want to be pissed about neer, again.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Being a dick is the only thing that Neer will respond to. Everything else he simply ignores.


 
Being a dick will get you notice on line and banned- in real life it will get you punched in the face.

You are contributing nothing to the subject at hand. This is about TT- not the fact you have a dildo coated in razors wedged in your ass sideways. Get back on the topic or leave.


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## Ricky (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> I was civil, for 6 months of being fed  lies and being told that waiting in excess of 3-6 months for a  Harassment TT TO BE LOOKED AT was being impatient.


 
Harassment?

Was someone mean to you online?

This deserves the immediate attention of all the staff on FA!


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## Aden (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Whatever it takes to get this problem SOLVED.


 
It won't get the problem solved.

*How you want it to be:*
Pay attention to this issue! Keeping this issue in the sight of the administration then they will get things done faster! I don't care if it's annoying, this needs to be done!

*How it is:*
Pay attention to me! Keeping myself in sight of the administration will make them pay attention to my cause! I don't care if I'm annoying, they need to pay attention to me!



Fay V said:


> Basically one might consider a group of sorters. People that look at the TTs and sort them. Because we don't have them auto attached to an image, these sorters can group TTS on one incident, or one submission.
> These volunteers have less power and can't remove pieces or infract others, but could maybe close a TT if the submission has been erased, or send a note that the TT has been grouped so people know that at least it's not lost in a pile of "To Do"
> So when the admins have time they can see the groups and deal with the group for submission X, and wont have to wort or anything.


 
It's a good idea in theory, _but_ it would take a lot more effort than just coding it into the system. That's a lot of work hours wasted. I like the concept, but the execution is not feasible (especially with this kind of backlog).


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## Diocletian (Feb 4, 2011)

Regarding the topic of this thread and the effects of the lack of a trouble ticket policy,

Of the admins currently listed on the staff page, I definitely know that that 4 of them have had serious activity problems since 2007. One of them was dropped as admin in that year for inactivity, was allowed back and promptly went back to doing nothing. Another one managed to answer just 13 trouble tickets in 6 months IIRC. I'm not sure if one of them has ever answered any trouble tickets at all.

One other admin, I once saw them remark that, due to some issue with their ISP (AOL, iirc) they were unable to access the FA admin panel and that they were perfectly content with this situation(!). I don't know if it's still the case that they are unable to access the control panel.

The reason I give those examples is purely to illustrate how long this has been an issue due to the lack of a policy requiring activity if one is to remain an administrator.

I've had 20 trouble tickets answered in total, and 13 of those were done by the same admin. Not fair that a few must bear the burden for all.

I also think that admins who are not active lose touch with the community who use this site, the other staff, current rules and policies et al. This means that they have the status, the voice and the vote of administrators but cannot/do not use it effectively when they belatedly lurch into life over some issue.


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## Accountability (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I highly doubt anyone is going to starve or otherwise be malnourished if FA takes its time to get around to problems. I am honestly content with things taking time to get fixed.


 I think you missed my point. When you volunteer to do something, you're making a commitment to doing what you volunteered to do. If I volunteer to process adoption papers at the animal shelter, then sit there and let them pile up while proudly wandering around the community showing off my shiny volunteer badge, I fully expect someone higher than me at the animal shelter will tell me to shape up or they'll find someone else to do it.



Arshes Nei said:


> It was interesting how quickly those members went through to get their adminship account, but still can't answer a TT?


Like I said above, I get the feeling that the "@ Administrator" tag is nothing more than a badge to show off with for a number of the admins. They only care about showing it off, and if they do truly care about the community, they're doing a poor job of proving it.

I invite those reading this thread to also read what ex-admin Dave Hyena wrote about the state of the FA staff when he was an admin two years ago. His points still stand true. Mainly "There was no guidance, no mentoring, no direction, no clear roles. The  staff was in  disarray with most of the administrators doing nothing or  just the absolute minimum." I think the most relevant line is this:


> I eventually quit after I realized that despite Preyfar and Damaratus's  promises about  making the staff work, culling the lazy ones, they would  never follow through and that  Preyfar will not change nor learn from  his mistakes.


 
This is something that people have been bringing up for years. And there has been little to no action taken. It does not take two years to write staff requirements.


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## ArielMT (Feb 4, 2011)

I wish these words were mine.  Please heed them as if they were:



Fay V said:


> can we stop that bickering. it's just getting off topic. make a new thread if you want to be pissed about neer, again.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

How many admins are actually in charge of the TTS at any given moment?
*What if a mandatory quota for TTS was implemented?* Each admin HAD to preform so many a month plus extra to be considered active and pulling their own weight.


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## Accountability (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> How many admins are actually in charge of the TTS at any given moment?


Short answer: All of them.
Long answer: Very few of them



> *What if a mandatory quota for TTS was implemented?* Each admin HAD  to preform so many a month plus extra to be considered active and  pulling their own weight.


This has been discussed for years and has never been implemented. I'm sure because that would mean someone would have to enforce it and that wouldn't be _enjoyable_.


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## Fay V (Feb 4, 2011)

Aden said:


> It's a good idea in theory, _but_ it would take a lot more effort than just coding it into the system. That's a lot of work hours wasted. I like the concept, but the execution is not feasible (especially with this kind of backlog).


 
I was mostly thinking of it as a temporary measure. A code to autosort is the best option, but it's slightly unrealistic right at this moment. There is a big backlog and it probably won't get fixed anytime soon. Coding takes time (particularly on FA) so having a group that is willing to do the dredge work of what the code would do in the future would at least make the burden a bit less.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Would it be possible to also redo the FA Wiki because it used to answer a lot of TT questions. Last I checked it was wiped clean of information. If common questions and common TT problems were posted with solutions I think it would cut down on the amount of TT in general. I have seen some post on the forum usually get their questions answered and do not have to refer to a TT because someone had the answer. Is there a way you could archive old TT that were solved along with the answer so that there is less confusion should something small go wrong.


 
I know that that the batch of admins had that had wanted to make changes to the Wiki before. A lot of them made journal posts. Believe Warmock, Xaerun had some they did, and I know Witchiebunny and Irreverent (cross posteD) a how to submit TTs which should be in the wiki

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1833685/


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Short answer: All of them.
> Long answer: Very few of them
> 
> This has been discussed for years and has never been implemented. I'm sure because that would mean someone would have to enforce it and that wouldn't be _enjoyable_.


 
While it is admin responsibility to monitor the sight we also need to self monitor. Those who are too lazy to use google or ask around before bawwing should be ignored. I would rather ask 20 people on the forums in the form of a thread than implement a TT because I know someone is going to have to take the time to sort it out when you could just as well taken the initiative to do it yourself. A lot of TT problems can be solved by the person having a problem.

Point: Try to solve the problem on your own first before issuing a TT- odds are it is a small problem or glitch and can be solved on one's own. As for harassment I agree it should be looked into; however, if it gets to the point you harass the admins about the problem- that is too far.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Smelge said:


> This thread is positively brimming over with Dragoneer


 
Seeing as his last post anywhere visible was on 01-20-2011, that's not saying much.



dinosaurdammit said:


> While it is admin responsibility to monitor the sight we also need to self monitor. Those who are too lazy to use google or ask around before bawwing should be ignored. I would rather ask 20 people on the forums in the form of a thread than implement a TT because I know someone is going to have to take the time to sort it out when you could just as well taken the initiative to do it yourself. A lot of TT problems can be solved by the person having a problem.


 
That's the way it used to be. Now it's against some sort of rule to do so, and your thread gets locked, with someone telling you to "file a TT and STFU"



Arshes Nei said:


> I know that that the batch of admins had that had wanted to make changes to the Wiki before. A lot of them made journal posts. Believe Warmock, Xaerun had some they did, and I know Witchiebunny and Irreverent (cross posteD) a how to submit TTs which should be in the wiki
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1833685/


 
Oh, that's nice. Now if only WE COULD GET SOMEONE TO READ THE NICELY FORMATTED TTs.

That link isn't worth beans if staff refuse to do their work on the TTs in the first place.

Seeing as there is no new information from ANYONE on this thread, from users to staff alike, maybe this thread should just be locked, because it's PAINFULLY obvious that nothing is going to be done about the TT system.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Seeing as his last post anywhere visible was on 01-20-2011, that's not saying much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I see people ask on the forums all the time in site discussion- yes some get locked but that is because they are answered. I have never seen a mod just lock a thread asking for help for the lulz. If you are angry about it and calling people out on it I can see why it would be locked; however, I have posted two things that were answered in a civil manor. TTS should be a last resort.


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## Smelge (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Seeing as his last post anywhere visible was on 01-20-2011, that's not saying much.


Yet it goes against your claims that the only way to converse with him is by being a dick. You behave badly, yet no Dragoneer. So it can't be that effective, and to be honest sounds like a pretty thin excuse to act how you do.


> Seeing as there is no new information from ANYONE on this thread, from users to staff alike, maybe this thread should just be locked, because it's PAINFULLY obvious that nothing is going to be done about the TT system.


 
Oh, if you just hang on 5 minutes, I'll go write a new TT system just for you. It probably won't work, but you know, at least someone is trying to do something. Because naturally, the only reason nothing has been fixed is to spite you.

Of course, you could read that last quote as "I'm getting attention, but not the type I wanted, shit, must get this thread locked".


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Short answer: All of them.
> Long answer: Very few of them
> 
> This has been discussed for years and has never been implemented. I'm sure because that would mean someone would have to enforce it and that wouldn't be _enjoyable_.


 
When you're doing it for free, you're the hall monitor of the site...then you have to get a hall monitor for a hall monitor.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Fay V said:


> I was mostly thinking of it as a temporary measure. A code to autosort is the best option, but it's slightly unrealistic right at this moment. There is a big backlog and it probably won't get fixed anytime soon. Coding takes time (particularly on FA) so having a group that is willing to do the dredge work of what the code would do in the future would at least make the burden a bit less.



That requires access to the admin panel. I don't think that's happening anytime soon.

That's one of the reasons we don't have moderators like we should on the site or at least a tiered system.


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## Fay V (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> That requires access to the admin panel. I don't think that's happening anytime soon.
> 
> That's one of the reasons we don't have moderators like we should on the site or at least a tiered system.


 Yeah a tiered system is certainly something to look into. frankly I think it would help a lot with other admin accountability issues.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Fay V said:


> Yeah a tiered system is certainly something to look into. frankly I think it would help a lot with other admin accountability issues.


 
It's one of those suggested, fell to the wayside due to coding/time/etc...

But like I said, fixing the system is one thing, but my main issue is dead weight admins. They're damaging the site and the morale of other members. The staff tries to be general about "hey don't be lazy about tickets" and some staff take it as they were the ones doing the wrong when it's not. See Ratte's reply early on in this thread because it's a perfect example.


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## Armaetus (Feb 4, 2011)

@Arshes: Considering your seniority and displeasure of the actions by others, you will have to get serious and even a bit abrasive at those being lackluster (Those I mentioned) in the TT department, even if it means stepping on a few toes. With things going around her on the TT situation, those doing jack shit for trouble tickets have to be whipped into shape and I don't mean get "soft" on them like it has been for the past 4 years.

Another thing among the staff is that they should acknowledge each other without forming a strong friendship upon working with one another so there is unbiased agreements and no mere ass kissing from moderators towards senior staff and and administration. One more thing should be egos of some members should drop immediately so it doesn't get in the way of having the way shit is done around here.


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## Ricky (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> But like I said, fixing the system is one thing, but my main issue is dead weight admins. They're damaging the site and the morale of other members. The staff tries to be general about "hey don't be lazy about tickets" and some staff take it as they were the ones doing the wrong when it's not. See Ratte's reply early on in this thread because it's a perfect example.


 
So tell them to GTFO?

No point in keeping someone because their friend is another admin.  They'll get over it.


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## Ben (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Oh, that's nice. Now if only WE COULD GET SOMEONE TO READ THE NICELY FORMATTED TTs.
> 
> Seeing as there is no new information from ANYONE on this thread, from users to staff alike, maybe this thread should just be locked, because it's PAINFULLY obvious that nothing is going to be done about the TT system.


 
How did you completely miss Aden's post about HOW ANNOYING it is to RANDOMLY CAPITALIZE WORDS for emphasis? It artificially inflates what you're saying to make it sound more important than it really is, which just makes everyone exhausted by you a lot faster. Then again, I also don't understand why anyone would choose "redfoxnudetoons" as an alias, so that might be another point of annoyance.

But seriously, leave the flaw pointing out up to Eevee, Pi and that whole lot. Every time you post, you just do a disservice to anyone who's actually good at pointing out holes in FA's structure.


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## Accountability (Feb 4, 2011)

Fay V said:


> Yeah a tiered system is certainly something to look into. frankly I think it would help a lot with other admin accountability issues.


 
I believe this was present in Eevee's Ferrox. Of course, that was thrown out.

Just think, had Dragoneer had the balls to keep Ferrox in development instead of letting it die because Eevee touched it, we might not be having this discussion today.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

Ricky and Glaice, 

Yeah it's been brought up, it dies down because "omg drama" and still nothing is done. I think by at least making this issue a little more public so that our users know now who are the ones being dead weight more pressure can be brought on by a community who wants change.

That being said, for the most part while community feedback is great, I don't believe everything should be a Democracy. 

This matter however, has gone on for far too long, and when staff bring it up it's shooshed so maybe this is one of those that now that people have seen how little others work on the site can complain about those members who aren't working as to why they're on staff.

Staff too should express how tiring it is those admins are getting a free ride. It's unacceptable.

I warned Neer that I would be bringing it up Feb if no real change was made hence my OP saying "it's going to be public".


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei is there a way to anonymously post problems that do not need TTS- just problems with the site everyone experiences? 
More may get done if there is a way to post problems that are categorized. It would give the admins a starting point to fix a lot of issues.


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## Taralack (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Arshes Nei is there a way to anonymously post problems that do not need TTS- just problems with the site everyone experiences?
> More may get done if there is a way to post problems that are categorized. It would give the admins a starting point to fix a lot of issues.


 
Even if there was, it's not like they would listen...


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Arshes Nei is there a way to anonymously post problems that do not need TTS- just problems with the site everyone experiences?
> More may get done if there is a way to post problems that are categorized. It would give the admins a starting point to fix a lot of issues.


 
I don't believe there is.

Thing is like I keep saying it's time to get rid of admins that aren't doing the work, we can work on the TT's system revamp discussion next. Keeping admins around that don't do the work is still a huge problem, we can fix it all we want but having "Broken administration" around is bad.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I don't believe there is.
> 
> Thing is like I keep saying it's time to get rid of admins that aren't doing the work, we can work on the TT's system revamp discussion next. Keeping admins around that don't do the work is still a huge problem, we can fix it all we want but having "Broken administration" around is bad.


 
Solution?

1. Get rid of bad admins
2. Recruit new good admins
3. Revamp some of the broken site navigation such as the commissions bar, TTS, and the Wiki
4.??? (it is acceptable at this point to have donuts)
5. PROFIT

Also- Fender, yea... He needs a suit. It looks more professional.


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## AshleyAshes (Feb 4, 2011)

I think that this is another example where FurAffinity has gotten too big and it's caused apathy amongst the staff. Once upon a time, FA was a fun little hobby, a furry art site and it was neat. Now it's huge, it's not fun anymore, it's a job that doesn't even pay anything, it's a monster that demands more and more time and resources. As a result, more and more staff seem to invest less effort into this hobby turned monster because they're getting tired of it and many just don't want to bother anymore.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

That's what the topic is pretty much about. I'm trying to get action done on outing the dead weight admins.


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 4, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's what the topic is pretty much about. I'm trying to get action done on outing the dead weight admins.


 
Yeah. Good luck with that.

There are staff on board that constantly break rules knowingly, and are still staff.

The only time Neer ever kicks staff is when they piss him off, users be damned.


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## Aden (Feb 4, 2011)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Yeah. Good luck with that.
> 
> There are staff on board that constantly break rules knowingly, and are still staff.
> 
> The only time Neer ever kicks staff is when they piss him off, users be damned.


 
See now you're not even _trying_ to look like you're helping. It was just "I'm trying to do x"; "don't even try, it sucks too much."


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm done asking nicely, next time you derail my topic with your attitude I'm just banning you.


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## Stratelier (Feb 5, 2011)

Is it not possible to just block his access to this thread/section?


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## Aden (Feb 5, 2011)

Stratadrake said:


> Is it not possible to just block his access to this thread/section?


 
He has his warning; no reason he still can't contribute constructively


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 5, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> For the user, it's a disservice to keep staff members not pulling their weight. As a user when mod auditions are open on the forums you're free to apply. Forums have become a good training ground for mods to work up the site.


With all due respect to you, Arshes, well... I can't recall who it was, but I know someone semi-recently referred to being a forum mod as "hazing". And with the toxic atmosphere especially in some of the subforums here, I can't say I entirely disagree.

I've also gotten the impression (shortly after the last mod auditions I believe there were posts made by forum mods/admins to that general effect) that this process hampers the recruitment of mainsite admins, because auditions will only be open when the forum needs new moderators, nevermind the problem is the mainsite and not primarily the forums.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

quoting_mungo said:


> With all due respect to you, Arshes, well... I can't recall who it was, but I know someone semi-recently referred to being a forum mod as "hazing". And with the toxic atmosphere especially in some of the subforums here, I can't say I entirely disagree.
> 
> I've also gotten the impression (shortly after the last mod auditions I believe there were posts made by forum mods/admins to that general effect) that this process hampers the recruitment of mainsite admins, because auditions will only be open when the forum needs new moderators, nevermind the problem is the mainsite and not primarily the forums.


 
There is a negative vibe in certain parts of  the forums. However, those forum users are also mainsite users. When there is problems with harassment and other tickets of that nature, the tone is now much worse. 

So yes while people are afraid of the tone of the forums, now we got admins not touching harassment tickets for similar reasons and that clogs up the TT system. After a while on the forums, you do get to see who is bad, sarcastic and so forth and realize it's not so bad after all. But besides that, if you can't handle this small slice. I'd hate to see you on the main site where it's even more needed.

Here we have the report forums, and I can see who is not handling the tickets clearly, and I can see discussion over problem users very clearly. The TT's only show who answered them and many more are not answered especially by those who have had experience in handling them for years. It helps them stay "invisible" and this false perception of a "Good admin" because they don't want to get their hands dirry when there are ones that do need to be answered. Granted, harassment is the most pain in the ass of all of them but it still needs to be dealt with. 

This is where you need to learn how to work as a team to deal with problem users, because if they exist here - more exist on the site. 

Simply going in now and saying "well now I'll just handle art theft" - well there are people who do handle those. We have other tickets that need to be handled too.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 5, 2011)

How backed up is the system of TTS? Would it be easier to issue a statement saying if you still have a problem issue a TT it after you wipe the system clean of the old ones? I can imagine old TTS are outdated and some users that posted them might not be using FA anymore.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> How backed up is the system of TTS? Would it be easier to issue a statement saying if you still have a problem issue a TT it after you wipe the system clean of the old ones? I can imagine old TTS are outdated and some users that posted them might not be using FA anymore.


 
That was done before and upset quite a bit of users because they weren't even answered - even with the explanation that the tickets were too old and needed to clear out the system. The main problem is again, and I'll keep repeating it so you understand to keep it to that topic - DEAD WEIGHT ADMINS NOT DOING THEIR JOB HANDLING TICKETS.

Sorry for the caps, but you see all these other discussion are detracting the main problem that needs to be addressed. When we have admins that are are now consistently answering tickets we can see how much more productivity it causes and see how many of these other side problems cease.


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## Smelge (Feb 5, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Sorry for the caps, but you see all these other discussion are detracting the main problem that needs to be addressed. When we have admins that are are now consistently answering tickets we can see how much more productivity it causes and see how many of these other side problems cease.



So the TT's show up almost like a forum setup. Each TT is a new thread? And in theory, you can scroll back to the oldest open ones? Or do closed ones remain, meaning you could have open and closed ones mixed together on page 52 of TT's?

Or am I misreading it? Is there an accurate way to locate the oldest open TT and sort it? Would it possibly work if an active quota was assigned to every available mod. Say 100 new TT and 25 TT's over 4 months old per week. If they don't achieve that target without a viable reason, they get a black mark against their name. Too many strikes gets you removed from mod status.

There has to be a way to encourage people to do their jobs. if they're not doing their job, they need to be removed. Having set quotas shows exactly who is and isn't pulling their weight, and gives a far more accurate illustration of who needs to be shuffled out.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

Yes, while we don't have more advanced sorting options (like sort by admin) or something, you can clearly see if you go page by page who is not answering tickets. I went back say 30 pages ( I have to remember how many tickets per page you can see) and it was still the same people answering them - which was about a month or 2 of tickets. I've gone back further - in the years...same dead weights not responding....

I know the dead weight ones have not been answering for years. There was a period I had considered leaving the site because of this issue too. Even had the audacity of these dead weight admins complaining about petty stuff while I did the work on TTs at the time. One was a definite seniority complex, the other was a stupid matter when that person wasn't even handling tickets themselves (in fact both of them weren't) The thing was, I noticed the forum members and how well they worked together and seeing how they were working their way up - that's why I realized I wanted to stay around. These members who after mod auditions wanted to help out with the site. If not for that, I may be in the same position other staff members who have left where it's bad blood and just saying how f'd up the situation is. I want that cycle to stop - especially seeing that these other mods that have worked under me work together for better and for worse.

The other thing about these dead weight admins not answering tickets, one of them was liable for getting the forums hacked by poor security even after it was mentioned that the next person who allowed themselves to be hacked due to their negligence would be let go. So now we have a dead weight admin who not only don't do tickets - they were also a security issue that wasn't even really addressed.

While I got the apology (but it was only because I mentioned it on another thread here - which means someone pointed it out to that person) the fact they weren't let go because of it, along with inactivity on the TTs shows how badly this is being handled.

I pretty much k.o'd the staff on the forums no longer doing work.


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## Smelge (Feb 5, 2011)

Thing is, if these site changes we are being told about are genuinely going to happen, then now is the time for a shake-up. New start and all that shite. Get your deadweights out the door, get new and active people in who will do the work.

I know you've said that training people up through the forums works well, but it is still a slow process, and from what I gather, you need the mainsite with working staff ASAP. Wouldn't it work with a new recruitment drive for FA itself, but have the new staff under a fixed term. They have 2 months to show they are up to scratch, or they get put out. Have them mentored properly by the active mods wouldn't take much time out of their schedule, and would likely increase throughput of TT responses.

As you say, something needs done, and I suspect it's now beyond the slowly slowly work people up to it approach.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 5, 2011)

Is there a system you can set up that automatically takes back the admin's powers if they remain inactive for an "x" amount of time? Say they haven't done anything in one month- the system shuts them out. That should bring awareness to the admins pretty quick and it is not blamed on another admin for blocking them out of the system considering it is a program. To become active again they might have to answer "x" amount of TTS to be reinstated. With a system like that I don't see how an admin could abuse the system.


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 5, 2011)

There might be systems out there, like that, yea.
But first of all, they won't work that well with FA, I guess, since FA is hand-coded. Besides, I don't think you'd want mod resignation to be automated like that, but rather always discussed.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

We don't need a system per say, we need someone to do it, and unfortunately at this time that rests with the owner of the site. He knows who they are and doesn't do anything about it. 

That being said I know the pressure is hard especially since this is a site that is being paid primarily from his own pocket (yes I know there are ads and donations, but he's been the primary funder). At any time he can say "fuck it" and take ball and go home - and that being his money mostly I can't exactly blame him if it ever gets that way. 

Everyone keeps asking for "systems" or similar things, and right now it rests on the person who owns the site. Why have everything automated when it didn't take automation to make these people admins?

Smelge

Adding people again doesn't solve the problem of admins not doing the work. If you at least have admins knowing the others are active it changes morale immediately. Those people knowing others are working hard are generally going to be more productive and help out in the work which increases the productivity. Then as others become ready it falls into place. But the system is stagnating because of those not doing work, and we keep adding people who will eventually get fed up and burning out. It's not that we need more people ASAP moreso that we need them all to be active. We don't need 20 admins working at once who are all new - we need experienced admins who used to do the work to get off their duff or get out. As the others become more experienced then you can add new members and it ends up balancing out.


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## Armaetus (Feb 5, 2011)

What you need to do is get the particular admins who aren't doing jack shit with TTs and get them ALL to have a specific quota per week...say 20/week. This will knock down the backlog quite a bit if those who don't do anything related to it and actually make the staff look _useful_ for once, not just sitting on their asses with that fancy @ next to their names to flaunt to their friends.

You have to enforce responsibility discipline to get those bumming around doing nothing to actually do something because being passive about it will not help make the team get up and moving, as they'll just keep doing the same thing (IE usually the same as now).

Even with real life and a job of theirs outside FA, it's not that fucking hard to answer 3-4 TTs a day..


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 5, 2011)

Glaice said:


> What you need to do is get the particular admins who aren't doing jack shit with TTs and get them ALL to have a specific quota per week...say 20/week. This will knock down the backlog quite a bit if those who don't do anything related to it and actually make the staff look _useful_ for once, not just sitting on their asses with that fancy @ next to their names to flaunt to their friends.
> 
> You have to enforce responsibility discipline to get those bumming around doing nothing to actually do something because being passive about it will not help make the team get up and moving, as they'll just keep doing the same thing (IE usually the same as now).
> 
> Even with real life and a job of theirs outside FA, it's not that fucking hard to answer 3-4 TTs a day..


 
Well that depends on the tickets themselves, but on the whole, the point is well put. 

Believe it or not, I agree. It would go a long way towards easing the burden on those of us who sit down to hammer out perhaps a couple dozen to a couple hundred tickets a day (and I have done so before. -_-)

Just chiming in as an admin who agrees with Arshes that ALL admins need to be pulling their weight, or be removed from Administrator status.


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## Armaetus (Feb 5, 2011)

@Witchie

I am glad to see another admin who disapproves of the utter lack of work some of the others have been doing, you have my support on this (as I do for Arshes). As I personally see it in my own quote, it should be "Do your fucking job as an admin or surrender your privileges.."


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

There have been more than one admin complaining about this issue - I know of 3 others that have had this problem with dead weight. 2 of which knew I was going to do this (sent them an email with them in on it). One of which got treated poorly by one of those very non-active admins demanding his/her account back after the hack.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 5, 2011)

Does 'Neer suggest anything done about the admins that don't do any work? I'm sure he has a lot on his plate, but this seems to be an issue that needs to be solved sooner rather than later. Has it been suggested that he send out a mass email to the FA staff regarding TTS and if the staff don't reply then they be dropped from their status as admin? After all if they won't reply to an email from the main person I doubt they are active enough to be pulling any of the weight of all the backlogged TTS.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

It has been, like I said it's just a sort of lip service that something will be done. I think at least this way this is pushing the issue moreso for him to make those decisions.

On the forum, this is something of a no brainer I don't care about de-modding or demoting those that aren't active much anymore as mods. I had to leave main site admins who have an account here alone. Main site I consider his territory so if I just went around demoting those not doing the work, it would be dramafest.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 5, 2011)

If only there was as much effort put into this sort of thing as is put into sharing cat videos and "help us get a new TV" journals

Just sayin'


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## Accountability (Feb 5, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> If only there was as much effort put into this sort of thing as is put into sharing cat videos and "help us get a new TV" journals
> 
> Just sayin'


 
It's very upsetting that, even though he runs around shouting about how much he cares about the community, when issues are brought up about how the community is being mistreated, he ignores them completely and instead uses the same community as a means to get a new TV. I guess you can have your cake and eat it too.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd like to keep this as a "please get rid of inactive admins" thread vs a "Look what Neer did now"
Thanks.

Because the more you find way to attack him the less this message I'm trying to present gets read.


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## Eevee (Feb 5, 2011)

I think the point is being missed here.

A lot of people are suggesting various rules and criteria for how to decide when admin privileges ought to be revoked.

But the actual problem seems to be that the only person capable of doing that revoking _will not do it_.  Debating when someone deserves punishment is useless if nobody ever gets punished.


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## Accountability (Feb 5, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I'd like to keep this as a "please get rid of inactive admins" thread vs a "Look what Neer did now"
> Thanks.



They kind of go hand-in-hand, in my opinion. His _inaction _on topics like this is why we're here in the first place. In fact, if he hadn't posted that journal and were to come on this thread tonight and post "Well I've been so busy with work." or something, I'd be much more willing to let that go. Posting that journal, however, showed he could find the time to ask for things but couldn't be bothered to reply to very valid concerns about the operations of his site.



> Because the more you find way to attack him the less this message I'm trying to present gets read.


I think there was a lot of (uncalled for) attacking going on earlier in this thread, but Bobskunk's post is far from being an "attack". More like an observation. An "inconvenient truth", if you will.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

Accountability, if you can respect my wishes and stop niggling it further I'd greatly appreciate it.
If things don't change in a few weeks, you're free to rag on me with "I told you so's" later.


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## Accountability (Feb 5, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Accountability, if you can respect my wishes and stop niggling it further I'd greatly appreciate it.
> If things don't change in a few weeks, you're free to rag on me with "I told you so's" later.



Will do.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 5, 2011)

Yeah I admit that what I said muddies what is a very important and very different issue with the site that should be in a thread other than this one, if at all.

If admins on the team are not doing anything to perform the duties expected of them (solving site problems through tickets) then they need to be let go.  Simple as that.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

Well I was told we will be seeing the first drafts of the policy soon, which is good.
My problem still remains that staff have been on for 2 years inactive. I guess the argument is "What's another few weeks" but really, I'd rather see those admins go. If their job was so important to keep it shouldn't take 2 years and a written admin policy to do it.

However, I will wait and see how this works out but I have to admit the fact it dragged on like this leaves me cynical. The best solution was to release those admins not doing the work immediately.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 5, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well I was told we will be seeing the first drafts of the policy soon, which is good.
> My problem still remains that staff have been on for 2 years inactive. I guess the argument is "What's another few weeks" but really, I'd rather see those admins go. If their job was so important to keep it shouldn't take 2 years and a written admin policy to do it.
> 
> However, I will wait and see how this works out but I have to admit the fact it dragged on like this leaves me cynical. The best solution was to release those admins not doing the work immediately.


 
When this is all said and done and everything is straightened out, you admins left should have a pizza party.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 5, 2011)

Accountability, I did ask politely the first time to stop niggling and using it as a way to attack Neer. The next time I'll just ban you. I don't think it was fair for you to do that when I have been more than polite in my warnings.


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## ShadowEon (Feb 6, 2011)

It is sad to see the administration going in the path it is...as for the people that actually do something, keep it up. :c I have only once submitted a trouble ticket so I can't really give much opinion on the system but I have never heard of some of the people that are supposed to be some sort of administrator , which is kinda bad if they are that inactive. I'd say just give them the boot and not hire replacements and keep to a certain number but that would put too much pressure on those who do actually do work. This is a mess.


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## Accountability (Feb 6, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Accountability, I did ask politely the first time to stop niggling and using it as a way to attack Neer. The next time I'll just ban you. I don't think it was fair for you to do that when I have been more than polite in my warnings.


 
Okay. Fair enough. I'm done talking about this for two weeks. Mid-February. When the new "support site" is supposed to be online.

And I bet nothing will have changed by then.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 6, 2011)

The one thing I will mention since I've been around that long is that I remember public assurances that inactive administrators would be removed because he didn't want to repeat the mistakes of Jheryn/Alkora. That means you had a policy in effect or at least a statement that you will remove inactive admins. It's obvious who these people are.

Basically what has happened is cynicism amongst the staff and morale degradation because the very mistake that wasn't going to be done has gone on for far too long.

Other administrations were either released or forced resignations, while these members have stayed on and done nothing but enjoy status. How is this even remotely fair? Not only that, some of these inactive administrators have mistreated members of our staff with various snide remarks or not even helping. An administrator would ask for help on a ticket, and the other inactive admins would continue to chit-chat ignoring the question. 

I would propose the staff who are working on tickets to stop - until the other inactive administrators are removed. However, I also know in doing so it would be an even further disservice to our users who depend on us to have their tickets answered.

We as a staff are happy to hear a first draft for policies will be made, however, we are unhappy that you still continue to allow people who don't do the work an even more extended time on this site instead of releasing them. I may not speak for all staff members because some are afraid to rock the boat or hate to see FA go down- but I know there are quite a few of us that want the admins not doing the work, gone immediately.


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## Armaetus (Feb 6, 2011)

What I find rather suspicious that none of these suspected deadbeat admins have not shown their faces to give their reasoning (or what I will say excuses) for why they aren't doing nothing. I am suspecting some of those I actually listen would be among them, but who knows..maybe they just wanna be quiet because they know their position be in potential jeopardy from their lack of activity and/or incompetence.

I may sound pressy but what this site needs is a team that works together and communicates openly with one another, not just a handful who don't do anything except my reasons in my previous posts.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 6, 2011)

There are a few reasons for that - some of which are obvious.

Those deadbeat admins didn't even bother doing the procedures - and staff hasn't passed around the info I emailed (to the emails I was able to capture) to reset their forum accounts. As long as they got their @ on the main site, I guess who cares about the forums.


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## Pinkuh (Feb 6, 2011)

As a note here, I retired from the main site. And at some point in the near future I will be retiring from here. 

till Witchie, and Ratte joined up the bulk majority of the tickets handled were by me, and me alone, and only when I had the time. Which is really hard when holding down a full time job with a 2 hour daily commute. Now I can't help at all, becuase of life circumstances, so I gracefully bowed out. 

there are many on the site that need to be kicked in the pants and let go of. But Neer really can't stand letting go of certain members regardless of their inactivity becuase of lord knows why in the cases of some of them. 

Honestly? If I were still admin right now, I would just go through, de-admin those that were not active, and if neer gets angry say "Look, they have been inactive long enough to not know the rules of the site as they should anymore, and they need to go through training again." Truth will tell when none of them want to beam back through the forums to get them to being active again.


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## Armaetus (Feb 6, 2011)

The cronyism among some of the lazy admins needs to stop, it's pathetic and inexcusable for some to not do shit while others do the brunt of the work.

Hell, even if I was a senior staff member who had a friend or friends who were also admins who were incompetent or doing next to nothing but boasting about their @ on their page...I would not hesitate to deadmin them either. The BFF nonsense does not stand up when it comes to me, as I don't op or superop my friends on #sergal on Furnet IRC. I take the responsibility of my & seriously and to uphold order to best of my ability without fucking around or abusing it (both serious and playful abuse).


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 6, 2011)

I'd "this" your post Pinkuh but seems to be a permissions issue with "this" again (will have to look at why the plugin is goofing up - if I have the capability of ediitng it). 

I had stopped answering tickets due to personal issues which I mentioned to Neer and the big reason was that I was just fed up by the peanut gallery of inactive admins still having access to our chat/forum and site. I shouldn't be talked down to by those who are doing jack shit. It wasn't the users that didn't make it not worth handling tickets but our own staff.

I come back from time to time now but even I have limited time - you can't expect the same people to be doing all the work forever.


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## Diocletian (Feb 6, 2011)

I was assured in 2008, by the site owner, that lazy admins were on their last chances. I suggested then that they had more than proved, by months and months of inactivity, that they were not interested in being active admins and should be let go immediately but the site owner was insistent on giving them one last chance. 


That last chance has now lasted more than two years.


2008 to 2011 is more than enough time to divine that they are not interested in anything except the status. Threatened with the loss of their all important @, you _might_ see them  lurch into life for a little while but then lapse back as they've done  before, and then the whole cycle starts again.

I know how to restore a little confidence; release them immediately and then I believe you shall see people say: "Well, maybe things _are_ going to get a little better, for this problem has been resolved". 

Talk is all well and good, promising things is fine, but actions speak louder than words.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 6, 2011)

If I see any staff member threatened by this issue I will ask them to strike. That is horrible treatment for those actively trying to help the site.

Meaning we got threatened for expressing our concern for the site. I'm extremely perturbed by this.


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## Diocletian (Feb 6, 2011)

When I had cause to exchange a few notes with a FA admin a month or two ago, they mentioned in the course of this exchange that they felt it was unfair when people spoke critically of the "FA staff" collectively, given that some do what they can and they are all individuals, and it seems to me they had a point.

I have seen people speak in general terms of the FA staff being lazy et cetera and I believe I have done so myself. Now, prompted by my remembrance of this exchange of notes, it seems to me that one should be incisive in this matter so as not to be unfair to those who do what they can. 

I spoke earlier in this thread of 4 admins who had long term activity problems and 1 who was perfectly content with not having access to the admin control panel due to their ISP (iirc).

In order to clarify things, so that no one gets any false impressions that the entire staff are inactive, those admins are:

Glaide
Kyoujin
Silver R. Wolfe
Wicht

The admin who was content with not being able to access the admin control panel was Bijoux De Foxxie. To my recollection she was never very active either, though I apologize if that memory is incorrect. I do not know if any other current admins have long-term activity problems.

As I said, I felt a little pricked in my conscience by having spoke in generalities in the past: referring in general to FA staff as being lazy and I wish to clarify things since it distresses me to think of those who do what they can feeling bad that they can't do it all, even though they may try and try.


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## Pi (Feb 6, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> That is horrible treatment for those actively trying to help the site.
> 
> Meaning we got threatened for expressing our concern for the site. I'm extremely perturbed by this.


 
Y'know, I can kind of relate to this.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 6, 2011)

Dave, I do feel that staff have been unfairly lumped like we have some consensus or hive mind. It's not the case. In some ways maybe this thread is positive because there are admins who once felt like they were the only ones feeling this way coming together on this issue. I think there are more still afraid to speak up, actually I KNOW there are. 

We do truly understand the financial burden Dragoneer has to face and at times rather unfair criticism by the users. He can at any time find this site not worth it and drop it. We do appreciate him taking it from Jheryn because it was a lot worse. I was treated extremely poorly by him (Jheryn), even when I was one of the ones working on fixing bugs on that site. I got banned for saying "the code sucks" - well shit I worked with it and even though I was no expert in php even I knew half of the errors were just bad practices and typos - typos I corrected and watch get erased.

I even understand and sympathize with Arcturus since he was treated badly too. I am not excusing all of his behavior, but one of the worst accusations was that he was taking donation money for commissions. It was such the wrong thing to say because he was not at the time. He wanted the site to flourish too.

I've been banned from this site time and time again because I was critical - but I was trying to help change some of the problems, problems still present today. Yet today I'm here as the head admin on the forums asking for change and removal of admins that should have been long gone - certainly long gone before Chase. 

Yet we get treated not as admins with a general concern for the site but get accusations that we are trying to guilt trip, and even threatened. That is definitely not the way to handle things. I can understand being upset at our displeasure but at least understand *why* we are upset. You may as well treated me back as it was before you let me on. You're telling me that all these years of service I had some kind of agenda of ruining the site? I don't even want my name in the staff credits. I just wanted to help improve the site.


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## Kantress (Feb 6, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Yet we get treated not as admins with a general concern for the site but get accusations that we are trying to guilt trip, and even threatened. That is definitely not the way to handle things. I can understand being upset at our displeasure but at least understand *why* we are upset. You may as well treated me back as it was before you let me on. You're telling me that all these years of service I had some kind of agenda of ruining the site? I don't even want my name in the staff credits. I just wanted to help improve the site.



Wait... Are you saying here and in your other post that someone's threatening or demeaning you? I'm not sure if I am getting the correct impression, but I am getting that you're angry at Dragoneer or someone else very important (who else I don't know) for his response to you and your fellow active staff over this and that this happened today. Could you correct me if my impression is mistaken?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

We got threatened by him.


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## Aden (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> We got threatened by him.


 
Wait huh


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Aden said:


> Wait huh


 
Neer threatened Pinkuh and pretty much made us all feel threatened for speaking our minds.


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## Pi (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Neer threatened Pinkuh and pretty much made us all feel threatened for speaking our minds.


 
What, you mean that people who disagree with how the site is being run (ps: it is being run into the ground) are castigated and made into pariahs for no clear reason? I haven't been trying to point this out for years, no, not at all!


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## redfoxnudetoons (Feb 7, 2011)

Pi said:


> What, you mean that people who disagree with how the site is being run (ps: it is being run into the ground) are castigated and made into pariahs for no clear reason? I haven't been trying to point this out for years, no, not at all!


 
Indeed. I too, have been pointing this out for years. 

Look, Arshes, It has become very much apparent by Pinkuh and you guys being threatened that the problems of FA will never change.

Ban me if you want, but I hope you do realize the kind of person who is running this site: someone who doesn't care about his users as long as he can fool people into giving him money.

And stopping doing TTs only makes things worse, because then you become part of the problem you want to solve.

And judging by the way things seem to be going, you'll end up banned as an admin, and we will end up with a bunch of do-nothing staff who break rules for friends and ban anyone who says boo about it.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Pi said:


> What, you mean that people who disagree with how the site is being run (ps: it is being run into the ground) are castigated and made into pariahs for no clear reason? I haven't been trying to point this out for years, no, not at all!


 
Pi, I've no personal problems with you.

However, the way you've presented yourself is extremely abrasive and I know you've already said you're pretty much not going to apologize for it because you have little patience for stupidity.

But for most the way you have presented yourself makes it hard to listen to or swallow. I can't ask from a change from you to tone it down a bit but I do know while you see what I'm doing and agree all these years just looks like attack attack attack (from your part). 

That being said I know others have tried to do the same and fail Others have been gentle with their prodding and others like yourself have been abrasive and harsh.

I'm doing what I can at this point. This is a turning point to actually make a good attempt not just with the users, but morale of the staff to make things better. Actually believe in good leadership.

If he wants to threaten and ban me fine, but this thread for the most part (sans redfox) has shown that people can speak without as much acid towards each other. If you look at the replies even Eevee, yourself and Accountability (for the most part cept for the last post I had to delete) have held back the vitriol a bit, and let me do my thing so to speak. That I can appreciate. 

I think banning me or demoting me would send the wrong message, especially if he's willing to demote me faster than the inactive admins not doing a thing for several years. Oh they did some things like ...
treat yak like shit when he beefed up security and asked them to do certain things
ignored admins in training when they asked questions because they felt talking about their life or video game /whatever stuff was more important.
bitch at other staff members in petty things when those members are at least answering tickets.

If that's worth keeping while TTs pile up and this policy gives them more time when other admins not just myself have said "enough" that's a very poor choice to make.

I know I have staff members concerned for my position right now and I appreciate their concern, but if we are living in fear vs working together, there is a lot that needs fixing - even if they think I'm a bit scary too


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## cesarin (Feb 7, 2011)

all this stuff makes sense like a weird wicked puzzle regarding the  admin dumping "bad people" who spoke strongly and badly of the community into limited accounts and other shit.. wooooow..


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## Ahkahna (Feb 7, 2011)

Earlier in January I resigned as admin because I felt I personally, due to health reasons, could no longer pull my weight as an admin. Although I took frequent breaks, I did my best to keep up with TT's, keep positive with users, and whatever mistakes I made I apologized for and did so in all honesty and sincerity. 

Arshes is very correct in saying that there needs to be some serious work put in by admins. There were times where I would go through TT's over a span of days, taking care of as many as I could to get the count down and people taken care of. The amount of backup was ridiculous and always daunting, frustrating, stressful. After Arshes mentioning this here, it occurred to me that there are indeed admins who I never noticed doing enough to help tackle the mountain of Tickets. Now that I look back on it, I feel very sad that more hands could have been on deck, who were there, they were around, but didn't do much spot work. 

At the time, it wasn't of a concern to me. My main concern was dealing with TT's as I was asked, being helpful, making sure I did my part to take some strain off of other admins. I never noticed the lack of names because I was so use to seeing the main admins doing their job. And PAGES upon PAGES a single admin would have worked on TT's. Always the same names, but otherwise I never saw those who should have been making a dent in them.

It bothers me now to know we could have had more help. 

Another note: I think I find it very unfortunate that a valid point about the necessity of removing inactive admins being brought up by staff to "our" site leader results in threats against them for speaking their mind- this should never, ever, be an issue. I can only say it is severely disappointing from the standpoint of a retired admin that our work isn't valued, the amount of work we had to do, by even our own higher up. Backhanding staff who do their jobs, work hard at their free work, doesn't make them want to work any harder and certainly doesn't make them want to stay on board.

Edit:
Suggestions on my end?
-Admins need to be given a monthly quota, as I've seen others make mention through this thread. 
-If the quota isn't met, a warning is given. There are a total of three warnings, I have always appreciated the Three Strikes rule, and admins count utmost.
-The number of TT's shouldn't be daunting to take care of as we all had/have things to deal with in our personal lives. But the numbers shouldn't be so low that they don't keep up with the number of incoming tickets.
-If an admin has to break, and they cannot fill their quota, knowingly, they need to be de-admined until they are certain they are ready to return to their duties. I, myself, would have preferred this method considering my health. However, that may be considered bias, and I'd rather the admin team consider that as an option for those they know have health issues which may affect their work abilities.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

cesarin said:


> all this stuff makes sense like a weird wicked puzzle regarding the  admin dumping "bad people" who spoke strongly and badly of the community into limited accounts and other shit.. wooooow..


 
Not really because the miserable users issue you're talking about is actually a separate issue entirely and doesn't belong in this thread.


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## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> We got threatened by him.


 
Wow, I see. This makes me wonder if anyone else would have asked or thought what I did if I hadn't asked for confirmation. I thought I heard you correctly, but I just *had* to make sure.

Well, this is very serious. I know others have said similar things and you wanted to stay away from bashing Dragoneer, but... I don't expect this to end well. The fact he waited so long on the inactive staff and staff conduct issues that you felt compelled to air your grievances here, him not showing up to this thread at all, the fact he threatened you and others and then in response you called for a strike (and publically, too), all tells me the site's imploding and you and other staff won't be here much longer. I don't wish that on you folks, but, I see you all either being forced to resign or quit in disgust, and the creation of yet another shitstorm on FA for people to point to and laugh at. It's so sad, because this is a problem so easy to fix, yet he refuses and makes the matter even worse.


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## ArielMT (Feb 7, 2011)

Ahkahna said:


> Edit:
> Suggestions on my end?
> -Admins need to be given a monthly quota, as I've seen others make mention through this thread.
> -If the quota isn't met, a warning is given. There are a total of three warnings, I have always appreciated the Three Strikes rule, and admins count utmost.


 
I agree with the fact that we do need a higher percentage of admins stepping up to fight the neverending ticket problem, which is part of the reason I volunteered, and we do need periodic peer review to keep our @'s from becoming mere status symbols.  However, this proposal in the strictest sense, whether it mainly or exclusively focuses on numbers, I think is a mistake and will encourage us to act in the same way as the most ineffective of call centers: answering and closing tickets with less diligence to solving the actual problems than our members deserve, sacrificing quality for quantity.

More than simply answering tickets to get our names on the list of closed tickets, we as admins need the kind of teamwork and support mainside that we moderators have here on the forums.  I've seen that from some admins in the short time I've been aboard, including you and Arshes, but only some.  I go down the list of forum leaders here, and I can tell you what all but the non-moderating VIPs do or have done to help the forums, many of them in detail including all of our most recent mods, but when I look at the staff page mainside, I don't even recognize a third of the names at all.


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## Ahkahna (Feb 7, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> I agree with the fact that we do need a higher percentage of admins stepping up to fight the neverending ticket problem, which is part of the reason I volunteered, and we do need periodic peer review to keep our @'s from becoming mere status symbols.  However, this proposal in the strictest sense, whether it mainly or exclusively focuses on numbers, I think is a mistake and will encourage us to act in the same way as the most ineffective of call centers: answering and closing tickets with less diligence to solving the actual problems than our members deserve, sacrificing quality for quantity.
> 
> More than simply answering tickets to get our names on the list of closed tickets, we as admins need the kind of teamwork and support mainside that we moderators have here on the forums.  I've seen that from some admins in the short time I've been aboard, including you and Arshes, but only some.  I go down the list of forum leaders here, and I can tell you what all but the non-moderating VIPs do or have done to help the forums, many of them in detail including all of our most recent mods, but when I look at the staff page mainside, I don't even recognize a third of the names at all.


 
When I mentioned the quota, it was intended to include a statement that you've mentioned on not just going through TT's willy nilly without being thorough and having concern for the issues. I assumed that would be known, but, again- clarity is always best. It's 2:30 am here and I am very tired, so I just went as far as to state my thoughts  But yes, quality should never be sacrificed and I would expect that every admin would put their best foot forward when dealing with the TT's, hence I also brought up the number of TT's to be managed. Quality would have to be part of the Quantity, absolutely.

Maybe there could be a minimum quota? An easily attainable goal but still enough so that other admins don't feel so overwhelmed (which I felt, and I know others felt quite often). Every admin needs to take part in what they signed up for, and if they can't, they shouldn't be on board. Like I said, my health made it more and more difficult for me to keep up with things, I couldn't have that sitting on my shoulders and I, more often than not, felt like I a bump on a log. If I can't help, If I can't help EFFECTIVELY, I shouldn't be an admin. I felt it was an honest decision to step down.

<3


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Neer threatened Pinkuh and pretty much made us all feel threatened for speaking our minds.


 
That doesn't seem like the best way to run a website. You know, demeaning and threatening your administrative staff into silence.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

From my end, witnessing the situation (i.e the threats), it's absolutely terrible for morale of the staff who were watching because he threatened ALL staff who might speak out in this matter. Pinkuh was only threatened directly because she *was* speaking out at that moment. Those of us who are speaking out are the absolutely LAST people who need to be treated in such a fashion, because we care about the site and we are *showing* it by speaking up. To have the site owner's authority thrown about at us in response, as if to say "I don't want to hear this, and I'll silence you so I don't have to" is.....ugh. 

Things like this can put a real dent in the loyalty of admins to the site owner, and make working for the site less fulfilling-after all, who wants to work for a site owner who is willing to cast you off the team the moment you say something he doesn't like? How is the site supposed to grow and improve that way? 

If Arshes calls for a strike, then I will strike. And if I get thrown off the admin team for speaking my piece, then 1. The admin team clearly isn't the team it NEEDS to be, and 2. those in charge aren't who I thought they were. 

tl;dr I don't take kindly to threats for speaking up in favor of improving the site, even if it's what the site owner doesn't want to hear.


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Those of us who are speaking out are the absolutely LAST people who need to be treated in such a fashion, because we care about the site and we are *showing* it by speaking up. To have the site owner's authority thrown about at us in response, as if to say "I don't want to hear this, and I'll silence you so I don't have to" is.....ugh.



Agreed. Dragoneer should apologize to each and every last one of you for that.



Witchiebunny said:


> Things like this can put a real dent in the loyalty of admins to the site owner, and make working for the site less fulfilling-after all, who wants to work for a site owner who is willing to cast you off the team the moment you say something he doesn't like? How is the site supposed to grow and improve that way?



It can also put a dent in the loyalty of the userbase to the site owner - if you're willing to disparage the people helping you to watch over the site, what are you willing to do to users you aren't fond of?



Witchiebunny said:


> If Arshes calls for a strike, then I will strike. And if I get thrown off the admin team for speaking my piece, then 1. The admin team clearly isn't the team it NEEDS to be, and 2. those in charge aren't who I thought they were.



I'd support such a strike, myself. Dragoneer needs to look past his fragile ego and realize that everything is not perfect in his kingdom, nor will it ever be - but it can be better if he puts in the work and puts aside his ego.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

The threat bothers me because we're also the active admins that communicate. We're not perfect and we have our disagreements but I can at least have a respect for those that do the work even if I express concerns about their faults, and in turn the staff about mine. 

However, it's in my interest to protect and look out for those who have worked under me and worked their way up to be site admins. I don't want them to go through what I did. That's why I'm still here to look out for them too.


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## TheGreatCrusader (Feb 7, 2011)

> We're not perfect and we have our disagreements but I can at least have a respect for those that do the work even if I express concerns about their faults, and in turn the staff about mine.


Not perfect? The clear 'mistakes' and misuse of power that has been witnessed over the years is clear and for the most part, inexcusable. By your logic, I'm not perfect and therefore cannot be accountable for my faults.

It's garbage that you _people_ cannot be held accountable for your actions. Everyone else is for a reason.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Crusader read Fay's post. Stop derailing it for whatever agenda you have because this is one of the few threads that is actually staying focused on topic at hand. I also have no problems banning you for derailing it so consider this your warning.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Damn. For the admins trying to do their best this is horse hockey. Handling TTs I imagine can be stressful, pulling the weight of all the backlogged ones even worse. I don't think the fandom understand the work that goes into a site such as this. I applaud any admin trying to wade through the, what I imagine, massive backlog. It shows you actually care about getting the site back to full speed. I hope you guys are able to get somewhere. If worse comes to worse and the admins doing their job are banned I think there will be a lot of backlash from the community. I hope the strike, if it happens, ends in you guys getting your point across and something actually gets done. That would restore a lot of faith in the system.


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## Armaetus (Feb 7, 2011)

Threatened by the Big Man for speaking out your minds on this? What the fuck, that is unprofessional and childish at best...the ego must be 1) put aside or 2) eliminated for the best interests of what the SITE and COMMUNITY needs, not what HE wants. He has to remember that the community makes the site, not a small group of friends. Not to mention hearing about this makes me lose even more respect over such an incident..

Upon reading Ahkana's post, she is completely pardoned from any suspicion I may have had on her as being "lazy". Thank you for stepping up.

If you ask me, I would prefer someone who would actually deal with the site in the community's behalf, not what the owner wants it to be.

If they want to strike, by all means do so.


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## Pinkuh (Feb 7, 2011)

One thing about this whole mess since the threat was directed at me, is the fact that I did not retire from the main site over some willy nilly little thing, I didn't do it becuase of drama, or any other random nonsense. I did so becuase I am very much pregnant at the moment, and my life has been turned up-side-down. People have to have their priority's straight. Baby > FA, and right now setting up for said baby is my only goal. 

Also To give you a history, I was, up till, oh... 3 weeks ago? The sites Scapegoat. If something shitty needed to be done site wise, I would do it (See the whole damned explanation of the cub ban thread for something recent). A good amount of the "Drama" I was involved in, was actually me stepping up and taking the blows becuase if I didn't do it, no one would. Why? Because the moment I stepped back into the spotlight, all the weaponry would be aimed at me, and me alone, it allowed the other actually active admins to do their jobs quickly, quietly, and without much fuss. Sure I am labeled as the worlds biggest bitch, but at least I have a spine to back up what I say and I don't bend (which is another reason why people get pissed at me). There were things going on outside of FA that actually helped with that, including Dave's epic rants about me , and lulz's absolute obsession with me for a time XD.

That being said I will still be fighting for my previous team members. What happened yesterday honestly effected the staff around me, more then it effected me (Mostly becuase I am used to having that kinda tosh tossed my way allot). It's been like this since the beginning (hell in the beginning I pulled the same shit, and was given an ultimatum... if I didn't shape up and stop pulling the whole "I WILL LEAVE BLAHBLHABBAWWWWWWHINE" Crap I would be let go.). You would think, having held me to a certain standard that the person setting the standards would be held accountable for them as well.

What happened yesterday was harassment, but I'll take it if it means the system will improve. Considering all the shit I have been through for this site, standing up this one last time will only be another drop in the bucket.


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## Alstor (Feb 7, 2011)

If the active mods here go on strike, then I wish you all the best of luck. I think we all know that it will cripple the site's support system and integrity. Whether or not change will come, since Neer, Careneath, nor the dead weight won't be resigning soon, it's worth the shot, and you really need the break. It's already humiliating that an admin had to quit because the amount of TTs gave her _actual_ health problems.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

I, too, would support any strike by the active admins, especially if 'Neer is threatening you for simply asking that your fellow admins _do their damn jobs_.

Honestly, if acting like a professional and truly caring about the site is too much for him to handle, maybe 'Neer should turn site ownership over to someone (or someone_s_) who _can_ handle it.


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Neer threatened Pinkuh and pretty much made us all feel threatened for speaking our minds.


It bears repeating that after a year and a half of being the primary Ferrox developer and resigning in semi-protest, Dragoneer remembered me only as a scapegoat for the death of the project.

I've also heard of Dragoneer abruptly switching from "friendly acquaintance" to "spiteful and angry" when someone starts working for a project somewhat similar to FA.  (Pardon the hand-waving, but the story I have in mind was told somewhat privately and I don't want to drag the other party into this nonsense.)

The point here is not _heh neer is a dick let's pile on him_, but that there's a serious objective problem with how he relates to other people and this website, and it's negatively affecting both.  Everything I've seen leads me to believe there's a powerful us-vs-them mentality running FA: the slow trickle of new staff (in any position; zero new techs since I left two years ago?), the reluctance to remove old staff, the refusal to accept advice from "the trolls", the general slow flow of information, the martyring of people perceived to be working against FA.  This isn't a sustainable way to run anything, and to get back to the point of this thread: I don't see how you can truly fix the staffing situation as long as current staff are untouchable and potential new staff are eyed suspiciously.  You'll get some reluctant cooperation at best, but there'll never be any momentum.


I don't have any immediate solutions to this; just hoping my armchair engineer psychology is helpful to someone with influence.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

I will say that if an apology is not handed down today, and the inactive admins are not removed the following day, I will call a strike.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> I agree with the fact that we do need a higher percentage of admins stepping up to fight the neverending ticket problem, which is part of the reason I volunteered, and we do need periodic peer review to keep our @'s from becoming mere status symbols.  However, this proposal in the strictest sense, whether it mainly or exclusively focuses on numbers, I think is a mistake and will encourage us to act in the same way as the most ineffective of call centers: answering and closing tickets with less diligence to solving the actual problems than our members deserve, sacrificing quality for quantity.
> 
> More than simply answering tickets to get our names on the list of closed tickets, we as admins need the kind of teamwork and support mainside that we moderators have here on the forums.  I've seen that from some admins in the short time I've been aboard, including you and Arshes, but only some.  I go down the list of forum leaders here, and I can tell you what all but the non-moderating VIPs do or have done to help the forums, many of them in detail including all of our most recent mods, but when I look at the staff page mainside, I don't even recognize a third of the names at all.


 
if i may make a suggestion? make puppet accounts like "Mod1, Mod2" and have the moderators accounts threaded through those. that way the @ cannot be taken as a means of status or a target for anger (since we both know that there will be butthurt furries that feel they're above the rules of the site.)

and run this place like a business... have weekly quotas and if someone is not meeting their quota... BAM they're no longer a mod. plain, simple as that and solves a lot of issues (aside from people seeking mod status because they WANT that @ by their name... i could name names but really, that'd just be petty.)


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## CyberFoxx (Feb 7, 2011)

Maybe it's time to go from a "Leader and minions" setup and to a "Elected council and minions" setup. Not saying that 'Neer has been a good or bad leader, just that a single leader works for small projects, but once it get's as huge as FA is, having a single leader always leads to a "single point of stress failure".

Anyway, back to the whole TT thing. The one thing I've been wondering, is there specific roles when dealing with TTs? Like, Admin A handles "illegal repost" TTs, Admin B handles cub post TTs, Admin C handles harassment TTs, etc. Or is it a "first come, first served" system where an admin just does whatever TTs they feel like?

Then again, I could just be talking crazy again... Attempting to Run a huge complicated site like a well-oiled corporation... Riiight... Crazy...


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

OH. wow.

I never expected THIS to happen. What else could POSSIBLY happen now? I mean, REALLY? The administrative team of the LARGEST furry website going on strike because they were THREATENED to keep their mouths shut!? This pisses me off WAY more then the fucking furry leaks, and i'm not even involved!

Dragoneer, how the FUCK can you treat people like this!? NAMELY people who have had your fucking back, and done SO much for you on this declining website you call your pride and joy?! 

People like PINKUH who have taken the brunt force of the fandom's rage simply because no one would? And you fucking THREATEN her? Who the hell do you think you are?

You know what? I hope the admins DO strike. You don't deserve such a caring, helpful, AND respectful team (albeit a majority are completely inactive, and you run away from problems/site issues until it bites your ass) on your website if you can't handle a little god damned criticism and fucking hand out empty threats to people to keep their mouths shut.

To think, I wanted to sign up for administration. Sure as hell glad I didn't.

I half expect this post to be deleted, but at least I got it off my chest.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> You know what? I hope the admins DO strike.


 
why not? it'd be good to change things up anyway and what better way than to entice people to be scabs! (never did like that word though.)

a strike is meaningless in cases like this because:

1. the mods are not paid and neither does Dragoneer get paid for maintaining the site. hell, often the site runs to the point where he has to pay out of pocket. 
2. labour laws and union laws do not protect anyone on this site at all. if someone wants to go "baaw, he's bheing a meanine so i'll not do my job" there is nothing stopping the people above them from going "welp, enjoy your new indefinite vacation from the job! toodle-ooh sweetie!"

basically, what i'm saying is this. if the mods DO "strike" how long until they are replaced with people that are willing to do the job? besides, how is most of them "striking" any different than their unwillingness to actually do their jobs in the first place? (apologies to those that ARE doing their jobs though. i'm not intending to lump y'all in with the rest of the deadbeats.)


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> if i may make a suggestion? make puppet accounts like "Mod1, Mod2" and have the moderators accounts threaded through those. that way the @ cannot be taken as a means of status or a target for anger (since we both know that there will be butthurt furries that feel they're above the rules of the site.)
> 
> and run this place like a business... have weekly quotas and if someone is not meeting their quota... BAM they're no longer a mod. plain, simple as that and solves a lot of issues (aside from people seeking mod status because they WANT that @ by their name... i could name names but really, that'd just be petty.)


 
Again, while we understand people making suggestions, this is not about putting systems into place.
It's simple

Remove the inactive admins and finish the policy you're promising. We can work on the rest later.
The inactive admins need to go now. They had 3 years.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

It's not about their protection, nor any financial gain. Where the hell do you get that idea?

Do you HONESTLY expect Dragoneer to run the site on his own? Or with Sciggles by his side? Puh-lease. Don't make me LAUGH harder then I already am. It's the fact Dragoneer needs his administrative team to keep HIS website inline. Yes, they're not paid, but they volunteered to do a service, and some of them do/did it well. However working on volunteer and without pay is NO reason to be treated like complete garbage. None at ALL.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> basically, what i'm saying is this. if the mods DO "strike" how long until they are replaced with people that are willing to do the job? besides, how is most of them "striking" any different than their unwillingness to actually do their jobs in the first place? (apologies to those that ARE doing their jobs though. i'm not intending to lump y'all in with the rest of the deadbeats.)


Because the ones striking _are_ the ones doing their jobs.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> It's not about their protection, nor any financial gain. Where the hell do you get that idea?
> 
> Do you HONESTLY expect Dragoneer to run the site on his own? Or with Sciggles by his side? Puh-lease. Don't make me LAUGH harder then I already am. It's the fact Dragoneer needs his administrative team to keep HIS website inline. Yes, they're not paid, but they volunteered to do a service, and some of them do/did it well. However working on volunteer and without pay is NO reason to be treated like complete garbage. None at ALL.


 
you're making the assumption that most of them are even doing their job in the first place. and laugh all you want but this isn't some union deal or whatever... 

raeg moar plz, your anguish sustains me.


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## Aden (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> It's not about their protection, nor any financial gain. Where the hell do you get that idea?
> 
> Do you HONESTLY expect Dragoneer to run the site on his own? Or with Sciggles by his side? Puh-lease. Don't make me LAUGH harder then I already am. It's the fact Dragoneer needs his administrative team to keep HIS website inline. Yes, they're not paid, but they volunteered to do a service, and some of them do/did it well. However working on volunteer and without pay is NO reason to be treated like complete garbage. None at ALL.


 
Your emphasis makes me think of a mediocre newspaper comic

But the good thing about the staff being unpaid is that it's easy to let go if they're being treated like shit. They don't depend on FA for an income - it's just a side thing that they do to help out. Therefore, threats of striking or resigning will usually not be empty ones.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

redregon and doderwolf

Please keep the side bickering off this thread.

One of the biggest reasons messages like mine don't get heard is everyone wants to have their little side arguments on one thread. It makes it a mess. So to everyone, if you feel like having a side argument create your own damn thread and do it there.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> you're making the assumption that most of them are even doing their job in the first place. and laugh all you want but this isn't some union deal or whatever...
> 
> raeg moar plz, your anguish sustains me.



No, really, i'm not, but nice try! I KNOW a lot of admins do not do their jobs, in fact I can count the numbers that do on one hand, maybe a hand and a half.

YOU'RE making the deeper (And idiotic) assumption that they have no right to strike, and look stupid doing so, simply because they don't get paid, and aren't covered under union laws? Who gives a fuck? It's babysitting a bunch of people on a website that all share a common interest, not an office building where you supervise the same amount of people.

Keep being retarded, your ignorance fuels me.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> redregon and doderwolf
> 
> Please keep the side bickering off this thread.
> 
> One of the biggest reasons messages like mine don't get heard is everyone wants to have their little side arguments on one thread. It makes it a mess. So to everyone, if you feel like having a side argument create your own damn thread and do it there.


 
okiee dokie. 

though i do get the feeling that quite a few people here are posting in here mainly because Dragoneer/Preyfar is a "person of note" and we both know how much some furries love to see people fall from grace. (i'll bet you money half the people bitching here are only doing it because it's dragoneer or they have a personal beef with him and this is merely the excuse they chose to rail against him.)


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> redregon and doderwolf
> 
> Please keep the side bickering off this thread.
> 
> One of the biggest reasons messages like mine don't get heard is everyone wants to have their little side arguments on one thread. It makes it a mess. So to everyone, if you feel like having a side argument create your own damn thread and do it there.


:C Why do I get called out and not Aurora? I just thought Redregon was under the impression that the deadbeat admins were planning to strike, and I corrected him. I saw after a few more posts that that wasn't his issue, but that's all I was doing. I actually wasn't trying to start an argument this time (surprisingly).


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## nrr (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> (i'll bet you money half the people bitching here are only doing it because it's dragoneer or they have a personal beef with him and this is merely the excuse they chose to rail against him.)


 
There's definitely a nonvocal majority who just don't care.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm asking all of you stop it, I just pointed you two out because you were bickering right when I was making the reply.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

Can do. I said my pieces, and now I feel better in doing so.

I hope this all gets sorted out for you guys, I really, REALLY do. You all deserve better then this.


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon: I'm here because I like FA _and_ Dragoneer, and I'd hate to see FA go down the crapper because 'Neer let it happen. Just because I like somebody doesn't mean I'm going to act like their shit don't stink - if they fuck up, I'm going to say so, and between the "Miserable Users" stuff and this, he's fucked up quite a bit.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

nrr said:


> There's definitely a nonvocal majority who just don't care.


 
true true... and in some cases, some are posting because they want the "honour" of being "the one" to bring this up on livejournal snark communities that focus on drama. (translation: they are personally invested in being "right" regardless of wether they actually are or not.)


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

Fair enough.

Mind I still support the admins in whatever they choose to do. Something needs to be done, and you don't deserve this bullshit.


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## SkieFire (Feb 7, 2011)

It boggles the mind that 'neer would actually threaten you active guys for daring to actually speak up about the inactive dolts. He's had *years* to do something about them, or come up with a reasonable policy.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> Redregon: I'm here because I like FA _and_ Dragoneer, and I'd hate to see FA go down the crapper because 'Neer let it happen. Just because I like somebody doesn't mean I'm going to act like their shit don't stink - if they fuck up, I'm going to say so, and between the "Miserable Users" stuff and this, he's fucked up quite a bit.


 
fair enough. and despite how i may be, i will call him out on BS too... it just seems that there are quite a few here that are "oooh, it's fagoneer, better make this drama epic for the lulz."


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks for those who are listening, or more accurately ...reading.

As I said this is really simple.

We have a list of inactive admins that need to go. They have been given a last chance for well past what is acceptable. We don't need another few weeks because a TT policy gets into place. They need to be removed now. You're just creating more hostility keeping them on longer and giving them yet another chance they've blown for years.

We appreciate the fact you're working on the policy, it's a good step in the right direction.

Our staff needs you to be the leader and remove those admins. You need to own up that your threat towards us was not acceptable and apologize.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

i do have a rather simple question... though.

there's mention of the admins and mods being threatened but there is no mention as to what exactly they were threatened with. without that bit, the whole point of bringing up the "threats" is meaningless as it has no context. 

was it merely "do this or you're not a mod/admin anymore" or was it "do this or i'll hunt you down and beat you?" or any variance in between... if it was the former, i have to say that though it's not how i'd have done things, i don't see a problem with that (since... well, posession is 9-10ths the law and all that and in the end, what he says on the matter is how it is regardless if anyone likes it or not.) if it was the latter then why is anyone even bringing this up amongst furries and not a law enforcement agency?


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

As much as I don't like to, I have to agree. What did he say and what was the medium? I think since he had the gall to threaten you guys, you should publish his threats in gracious return. :3


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> As much as I don't like to, I have to agree. What did he say and what was the medium? I think since he had the gall to threaten you guys, you should publish his threats in gracious return. :3


 Pretty much this. If he didn't want it getting out, he shouldn't've said it.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Posting from phone, typos will be fixed when I get home.

We were threatened with removal from the administrative team for "guuilt tripping" him, I.e "anyone who tries to guilt trip me on this will be the first to go." Pinkuh was threatened with removal from the chat altogether. 

In essence, when the thread/topic was brought up, he dismissed the thread as being from a bunch of "whiny users" and then equated our bringing up the topic to guilt tripping before issuing the threat. The threat itself is fairly innocuous, its his site. However the fact that the threat was issue because he didn't want to hear what we had to say, and labeled us guilt trippers because of it...that is what bothers me. Its the mentality, more than the actual threatened consequence.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Posting from phone, typos will be fixed when I get home.
> 
> We were threatened with removal from the administrative team for "guuilt tripping" him, I.e "anyone who tries to guilt trip me on this will be the first to go." Pinkuh was threatened with removal from the chat altogether.
> 
> In essence, when the thread/topic was brought up, he dismissed the thread as being from a bunch of "whiny users" and then equated our bringing up the topic to guilt tripping before issuing the threat. The threat itself is fairly innocuous, its his site. However the fact that the threat was issue because he didn't want to hear what we had to say, and labeled us guilt trippers because of it...that is what bothers me. Its the mentality, more than the actual threatened consequence.


 Wow, that's... Special. Oh noes, you forced him to become aware of and think about a long-standing problem! I wonder if he realizes he can avoid the "guilt trip" by booting the lazy admins. Bam, no problem, no guilt over it.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Posting from phone, typos will be fixed when I get home.
> 
> We were threatened with removal from the administrative team for "guuilt tripping" him, I.e "anyone who tries to guilt trip me on this will be the first to go." Pinkuh was threatened with removal from the chat altogether.
> 
> In essence, when the thread/topic was brought up, he dismissed the thread as being from a bunch of "whiny users" and then equated our bringing up the topic to guilt tripping before issuing the threat. The threat itself is fairly innocuous, its his site. However the fact that the threat was issue because he didn't want to hear what we had to say, and labeled us guilt trippers because of it...that is what bothers me. Its the mentality, more than the actual threatened consequence.


 
okay... a bit more information has been revealed but generalities can be swayed. specifics cannot. i want to know what specifically was said. no spin, no generalities, no confusion. (or, unless i'm mistaken, was the "i.e." bit what he said specifically?)


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

....I have less respect for him now then the dirt in my shoes.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Posting excerpts from admin chat is a bannable offense guys, so no logs.


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## Pinkuh (Feb 7, 2011)

Unfortunately due to Rules in said chat that it happened in, we are not allowed to post logs unless approved by Dragoneer. (mmm conundrums)

Because I am not full time staff, he threatened to remove me from the Staff room (which all staff is welcome to), then he said that Anyone guilt tripping him would be the first to go, aka loose admin rights. He couldn't exactly threaten to take my admin rights away considering I de-admined myself a while back. But he did threaten to take anyone elses that spoke out against him.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Posting excerpts from admin chat is a bannable offense guys, so no logs. specifics when I have access backlogs, I.e not on the bus.


 
okay... well, i guess we'll just have to wait on either lulz or vivisector for them since i will bet you money that they'll appear there eventually. (they have before, i can see it happening again.)



Pinkuh said:


> Unfortunately due to Rules in said chat that it happened in, we are not allowed to post logs unless approved by Dragoneer. (mmm conundrums)
> 
> Because I am not full time staff, he threatened to remove me from the Staff room (which all staff is welcome to), then he said that Anyone guilt tripping him would be the first to go, aka loose admin rights. He couldn't exactly threaten to take my admin rights away considering I de-admined myself a while back. But he did threaten to take anyone elses that spoke out against him.



okay. so, basically what all this is spelling out for me is that he's either unwilling or unable to make the calls needed to run the site with as few hitches as possible. 

that is helping to clear things up. and yeah, it is a connundrum... or, as the churchlady would say "How Conveeeeeeeeeeen-ient.." :v

now that all that has been said, i'm now curious as to which admins have been singled out in admin-land as being useless, innefectual glory-hounds.


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## CR-V (Feb 7, 2011)

The whole fiasco quite bothers me. Seeing the lead admin act like this is not good for FA's image.
I can see different outcomes coming from this:
1. Neer relieves inactive admins of their duties and apologizes.
2. Neer relieves inactive admins, but doesn't apologize, instead sweeping everything under a rug and pretending nothing happened.
3. Neer lets inactive admins stay, demotes admins who protested and hires some other fools who will work for him. (not saying current admins are fools, but he'll sucker someone into doing his bidding if this happens)


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Posting excerpts from admin chat is a bannable offense guys, so no logs.


Setting aside how kind of eerie it is to forcibly hide so much staff communication: quoting is a bannable offense, but paraphrasing is just fine?


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## Pinkuh (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> Setting aside how kind of eerie it is to forcibly hide so much staff communication: quoting is a bannable offense, but paraphrasing is just fine?


 
In this case, Paraphrasing is the lesser of two evils and is less likely to result in the removal of admin status from the main site. If they posted logs, it would be an instant removal, no questions asked.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

After this, would it really matter either way if you were removed or not? Clearly since he has aspirations to remove any one who questions him and makes him feel bad anyway. Might as well go out with a bang. XD


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't want to set a bad standard of releasing admin chat logs.

We went forward with him threatening us because it's not acceptable, but still as odd as our "sense of ethics" is can you please respect that we don't want to set a practice where we can't even keep some confidentiality amongst each other.

It's not really I have much to hide but I do want admins at times having a place to blow off steam and be themselves a bit without having to just go around log posting and just feeling everything will be misconstrued and parroted - like any other log I've seen posted among the various places.


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## Pinkuh (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> After this, would it really matter either way if you were removed or not? Clearly since he has aspirations to remove any one who questions him and makes him feel bad anyway. Might as well go out with a bang. XD


 
Of course it matters. We all care for the site. That's the problem here. WE CARE. Going out with a bang isn't in anyone's list of things they want to do becuase They want to IMPROVE the site. The only way to do so is to ride out the storm and keep working towards the goal. Giving up and quitting in a hissyfit isn't the answer, many admins before us have, and their triads at the end, and after the end, didn't do them any good.


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## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> Setting aside how kind of eerie it is to forcibly hide so much staff communication: quoting is a bannable offense, but paraphrasing is just fine?



I can't imagine how many more scandals and how much more mockery there would be if staff logs were open to everyone. People could plainly see the shit Arashes mentioned about bad admins ignoring the good ones, or certain staff going on tirades over being challenged. There could be a new thread a week on Vivisector just from admin logs.

EDIT: And, I didn't see Arashes's post until now. Yes, I understand you not wanting to break confidentiality and embarrass people for innocuous stuff. But, there have been some damning things in the chat before, I'm sure. I wouldn't see any ethical problem at all from some of the logs being leaked.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I don't want to set a bad standard of releasing admin chat logs.
> 
> We went forward with him threatening us because it's not acceptable, but still as odd as our "sense of ethics" is can you please respect that we don't want to set a practice where we can't even keep some confidentiality amongst each other.
> 
> It's not really I have much to hide but I do want admins at times having a place to blow off steam and be themselves a bit without having to just go around log posting and just feeling everything will be misconstrued and parroted - *like any other log I've seen posted among the various places*.


 
interesting you should mention that bolded bit... since reading one of them from Vivisector a long way back, it was basically suggesting that some of the admins are still admins because they "have dirt on him." which would technically be blackmail... which technically is an actual crime... that's why i would like to know which of these admins that have been refusing to do their duty. 

there's something to be said about transparency in any political issue be it a website or the government and as much as the cynical side of me would like to just wash my hands of the whole drama-spectacle and say "well, Sean's just a bitch" the not-so-cynical part of me wants to know more because it isn't all that keen on just making such a character judgement and leaving it at that.

are the allegations that someone's blackmailing Dragoneer true? is there any merit to that statement? (yes, i know... a drama site isn't always the best place to get your information... but sometimes it is.)


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> After this, would it really matter either way if you were removed or not? Clearly since he has aspirations to remove any one who questions him and makes him feel bad anyway. Might as well go out with a bang. XD


 
Leave it as a nuclear option.  If you have "incriminating" (in a figurative sense, not a literal/legal sense) stuff, and you get dumped over this stunt, dump everything that shows the way things really look and behave.  This thread is one of the few insights users of FA EVER get on what's going on or how this place runs, outside of a few palliative charades about "stuff being done."  FA is a black box, and a lot of the stuff that does come out doesn't point to a very healthy system inside.  Don't release logs because that's an instant end to any help that can come of this strike.  Use it as leverage and a way to hedge your chances, since the goal is to reform FA, not to just mindlessly strike at it/Dragoneer.

The faÃ§ade can't keep up forever.  And if you all get fired for this insubordination, it's not you guys who are losing out, it's Dragoneer and FurAffinity.  FurAffinity != the furry community, no matter how much they get conflated.  Don't forget that you are the ones holding all the cards, since pretending to negotiate from a power of position is a specialty of FA as an organization.  See: people offering help for free being turned down, when FA is the party with problems that desperately need fixing- FA would stand more to gain and the coders would stand more to lose if FA accepted.

EDIT: Arshes, the standard of confidentiality applies to EVERYTHING in FA, though.  The policy is basically to shut up about anything.  Every place is essentially a place for admins to blow off steam, every discussion is considered secret, and there is no effective communication whatsoever.  If something is wrong, like the lead admin threatening staff or other admins with possible blackmail..  I don't know.  Where does the line get drawn?  The impression given is that everything is covered by that standard of ethics.  Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but nobody even wanted to mention Carenath as being behind the Miserable Users kerfuffle, even though Summercat was posting several times in the thread that he knew.

There has to be some point where this line can be crossed, and I don't mean saying "Wow Bobskunk is an asshole I wish I could find SOMETHING to permaban him over" in a private admin chat because that is a given, I mean serious, egregious stuff like what's being brought up in this thread.  A bad standard has already been set, akin to the thin blue line of police self-protection and corruption.


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> A bad standard has already been set, akin to the thin blue line of police self-protection and corruption.



Yeah, this is the most worrying thing to come out of this whole thread. The thin furry line needs to be broken.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

I gotta side with Dragoneer on this, guys.

He's the big boss. He's been on the website for longer than any of us. Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of experience running it. Now if, due to shady processes of some sort, a completely clueless stranger became chief manager of my project and started giving around random orders without filling his duties properly, I would freak out. But I'd very much like someone to explain to me how that's the case here.

Dragoneer is essentially what keeps the site running. He's the big coordinator, makes sure that the coders can get the proper feedback from admins so they're able to implement changes that the community requires. He's the one that plans the proper course of action on big issues, like the cub porn laws, and all the recent AUP/rule changes. He's keeping everyone active and motivated. He goes out of his way to make sure we can all have an enjoyable community to share art and tales with. Heck, he's the bloody life of this place. Often, I'll see him post on some unrelated issue, or share a simple story on LJ or twitter, and I'll think with joy "Oh, hi Dragoneer!", secretly thankful for all the work he does. 

And he does this entirely for free, out of his pocket and from the donations that some grateful users consent to share. He's free to leave at any time he wants and leave the site crumble, but he chooses not to, out of his dedication for _us_.

Dragoneers didn't cause any problems. Every single fiasco that happened in the history of FA was due to an obscure staff member going rogue. And action was always taken to remove these people from the staff.

That's why I'm saying Dragoneer has perfectly the right to issue orders like these. As the bible says, "Render unto Caesar..."; admin-related issues remain admin-related.
The staff shouldn't need any member's insight to take a decision or bring up an issue. Most users are completely clueless and have no idea of the community's daily happenings, while staff members are required to remain active on a daily basis. After all, who knows how to deal with the site better than them? Any non-staff member, even honorary members, are not up to date with the administrative proceedings, and thus cannot give exact insight.


As for dealing with rogue staff issues, harsh or biaised decision, and all the problems which plague the administrative corps, I trust the administrator are able to solve these issues amongst themselves, as a unified family.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity.


 
i'm happy for you and imma let you finish but he is not the original founder of FA... Jheryn is. Dragoneer merely became a staff member in it's early days and later bought FA from him. (i think it was Jheryn... my memory isn't perfect and that drama was a looooooong time ago... but i'm sure some of the veterans of the site might remember the previous owner extorting the team for ownership of the domain.)


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I gotta side with Dragoneer on this, guys.
> 
> He's the big boss. He's been on the website for longer than any of us. Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of experience running it.


 
Uh no he's not. That was Jheryn.

In fact I had access to the code far longer than Dragoneer even came on. I was one of the debuggers. This was before I even remember him being a staff member because Arcturus had the server before him.

Please get your facts straight before replying to this thread and derailing it.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> He's the big boss. He's been on the website for longer than any of us. Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of experience running it. Now if, due to shady processes of some sort, a completely clueless stranger became chief manager of my project and started giving around random orders without filling his duties properly, I would freak out. But I'd very much like someone to explain to me how that's the case here.


Eh, no. Dragoneer was just an admin who reluctantly inherited the site from the original founder (Jheryn, as said above). It's only his site because he was the only one willing to step up when Jheryn left.


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## LizardKing (Feb 7, 2011)

I cannot comprehend why removing a few clearly inactive admins appears to be such a big deal. They're not losing a paying job, or their homes, or even their account. They're losing a little @ symbol on a website that 99% of the Internet doesn't give a shit about. It doesn't involve paperwork, mechanical installations or even having an awkward face-to-face chat with them. 

You click a button, the @ changes to ~, and FA can try to get back on track again. It's that simple. Is that so much to ask?

At the same time however, I have to admit I'm not entirely sure why this is such a big deal. This seems comparatively far less of an issue than other things that have happened. I understand the frustration at having them being useless third wheels, but had this thread not been made, I'd barely even register their existence. Are they actively rubbing peoples noses in it or what? "Oh look at me, I'm a useless admin, lalala". I don't get it.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

FA has coders?


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary: Just because Dragoneer is the "big boss" does not mean he should be held unaccountable for the actions of administrators/moderators who work under him. If a mod fucks up, Dragoneer should do something about it, not sweep it under the rug. If FA has problems, Dragoneer should admit it instead of trying to get everyone to hide it and say "oh hey everything's cool nothing to see here".

A site administrator is not untouchable, and they should be held accountable when something within their control fucks up on their site. Dragoneer shouldn't get a pass just because he runs "the big furry site".


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> Are they actively rubbing peoples noses in it or what? "Oh look at me, I'm a useless admin, lalala". I don't get it.


 
In a sense some were actually. They'd be on the channel and be authoritative and not even do the work.


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## CR-V (Feb 7, 2011)

> Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of  experience running it.


Didn't he, like, buy off the site from the original founder? Or am I missing something here? :I



> He's the one that plans the proper course of action on big issues, like the cub porn laws, and all the recent AUP/rule changes.


How much do you wanna bet he wouldn't ban cub porn if AlertPay didn't close FA's account?



> and from the donations that some grateful users consent to share.


THIS is why he should reconsider his actions and actually shape up. He's been running off his ego for too long and made quite a lot of rash decisions. Then he would sweep it under the rug and go "nothing happened folks, move on."



> Dragoneers didn't cause any problems. Every single fiasco that happened  in the history of FA was due to an obscure staff member going rogue.


No one says that all problems are his fault, but a great number of them were caused by his actions-or should we say, lack of actions that should've been taken.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I gotta side with Dragoneer on this, guys.
> 
> He's the big boss. He's been on the website for longer than any of us. Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of experience running it. Now if, due to shady processes of some sort, a completely clueless stranger became chief manager of my project and started giving around random orders without filling his duties properly, I would freak out. But I'd very much like someone to explain to me how that's the case here.
> 
> ...


 
FA needs nothing to keep itself running.  If you replaced Dragoneer and most of the staff with a machine that rebooted the server whenever it crashed and added another hard drive when the existing array gets full, most users wouldn't tell the difference.  FA operates under the inertia of being the only site to add social features to a gallery setup and not be terrible in its time, and that people stay here because they were here for years, everyone's on the site, the other sites have varying degrees of issues.  If you took FA in the context of being equal to all the other sites in terms of active users, it would not nearly be as popular.  It's a historical popularity that endures, not because of anything FA is doing right now.

Problems that crop up may not be caused by Dragoneer, but the leadership Dragoneer displays is to essentially ignore these problems.  Maybe he does it because most of the userbase won't notice or care, maybe he's lazy, maybe he weighed the cost of opportunity and felt that a given issue did not have enough of an impact on the site itself.  In essence, he is avoiding work and avoiding effort because it's inconvenient and difficult.  Merely being the head admin of a popular site will get him the admiration of, say, 90% of users just for being in that position, including yourself.  Why put in a lot more effort to improve things, which would turn that 90% into 95%, when much less effort can go into maintaining the status quo?

Everything you say is better handled by someone who exists in a PR position.  An ideas and excitement position.  He makes these announcements, and then puts absolutely no effort into making them happen.  That's what being in the top leadership position of any organization is about: strategic thinking.  But all of FA is consumed by the operational.  That is a fundamental problem that paralyzes organizations, and it always comes from the top, because it's the responsibility of the top of the chain to do these things, and replace people beneath that do not further those ends.  If the top doesn't do that, well, barring any board of investors of FA, there's nothing that can be done about it.  That doesn't make any concerns invalid because "he's the boss," as that's like saying a CEO who presided over the loss of two thirds of their company's stock value is (ethically/morally, not contractually) entitled to a huge severance package.

Dragoneer's qualifications for running FA start and end with the money he paid for the ownership rights.  He owns FA.  FA is a mostly public service.  That doesn't mean he is above criticism for bad leadership, and it certainly doesn't mean he's entitled to bootlicking simply for the position he holds.  All of your arguments are bunk.

EDIT: oh, yeah, that was a mistake.  I'm not going to respond to this tool again.  Probably best for everyone else not to, either.


----------



## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> It's not really I have much to hide but I do want admins at times having a place to blow off steam and be themselves a bit without having to just go around log posting and just feeling everything will be misconstrued and parroted - like any other log I've seen posted among the various places.





Kantress said:


> I can't imagine how many more scandals and how much more mockery there would be if staff logs were open to everyone. People could plainly see the shit Arashes mentioned about bad admins ignoring the good ones, or certain staff going on tirades over being challenged.


I don't mean to imply that everything admins say, anywhere, ever, should necessarily be public.  But a community site should be public by _default_, whereas FA stuffs everything into an admin chat and some admin forums, then hides them _entirely_ from view because _some_ of it is damning.  I had access to the admin channel+forums for quite some time, and there was a good bit of legitimately useful/interesting information that just never got past those walls.  Meanwhile, precisely zip of what admins say _anywhere_ is actually available for scrutiny, which quietly encourages a culture of free resentment.

Plus, of course, you then have this current problem where admins can't even call each other out on things under threat of termination.




Pinkuh said:


> Going out with a bang isn't in anyone's list of things they want to do becuase They want to IMPROVE the site. The only way to do so is to ride out the storm and keep working towards the goal. Giving up and quitting in a hissyfit isn't the answer, many admins before us have, and their triads at the end, and after the end, didn't do them any good.


There comes a point at which staying onboard may not help anything, either.  You keep the status quo afloat, sure, but you're also _supporting_ that status quo.  What incentive does Dragoneer have to change anything so long as he has people around helping keep things how they are?




ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> He's the big boss. He's been on the website for longer than any of us. Hell, he's the original founder of furaffinity, and has half a decade of experience running it. ...
> 
> Dragoneer is essentially what keeps the site running. He's the big coordinator, makes sure that the coders can get the proper feedback from admins so they're able to implement changes that the community requires. He's the one that plans the proper course of action on big issues, like the cub porn laws, and all the recent AUP/rule changes. He's keeping everyone active and motivated. He goes out of his way to make sure we can all have an enjoyable community to share art and tales with.


This is exaggerated at best.  FA barely moves; Dragoneer just does a lot of handwaving to give the illusion of movement.  I can't imagine what "changes the community requires" you have in mind; the biggest improvement in the past year and a half was _session management_, of all things.

He's also not the original founder; that would be the original developer, Alkora/Jheryn.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Dragoneers didn't cause any problems. Every single fiasco that happened in the history of FA was due to an obscure staff member going rogue.


Incorrect.  Bear in mind that inaction can also cause problems.



ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> I trust the administrator are able to solve these issues amongst themselves, as a unified family.


What?  This thread was created because they're _not_ able to solve these issues.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> FA has coders?


 I thought we have a Coder, not coders


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## ArielMT (Feb 7, 2011)

Ahkahna said:


> [post]


 


ArielMT said:


> [reply]


 
It was late when I wrote that, and I'm not sure it came across that I agree with the whole post except the part I addressed.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Ok guys, again I noticed we're going into the other problems, can you please make another topic instead of piling on more problems?

Thanks

The staff want the following:
We want an apology for the threats.
We want the inactive admins removed
We want the TT policy in place

I don't want to close this thread but I don't want it to be a mess like every other page has been.


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## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

EDIT: Ehhh, alright. Has Dragoneer seen this thread or is he at least on now, or does he not get on until later?


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## Grimfang (Feb 7, 2011)

As a former admin on the forum side, I just have to say that choosing to step down (due to being unfit for the job, or not being able to keep up regularly) is better than remaining and creating this conflict. This is a long-running problem that's now a divisive issue for the staff. It's selfish to feel so entitled as to ignore the feelings of not just the community, but a portion of the active staff as well. If certain staff members are simply too inactive to realize this is a problem right now, they should probably be removed.

I also know that this is Neer's site, and it all comes down to his final word. It's just my two cents, but I care about some of the staffers here and the work they put in. I also care about the site and community, and part of me wonders if the site can survive further down this route.


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## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Ok guys, again I noticed we're going into the other problems, can you please make another topic instead of piling on more problems?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


 
Maybe this thread should be split up a bit.  Some of the side discussions are interesting and do have merit, but this thread really is important and it would be best to keep it from being muddied up.

Is the apology going to be public?  And if it's in private, will the users ever know that an apology has been made, just so it doesn't get swept under the rug?


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## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> I thought we have a Coder, not coders


 Hence my question. ;P


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Ok guys, again I noticed we're going into the other problems, can you please make another topic instead of piling on more problems?


These are all highly interconnected problems; it's hard to consider how to resolve yours without acknowledging others.

Pages 9/10 of a public thread may not be the best place to announce a demand.  I think Dragoneer's stopped replying to criticism threads lately, anyway.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

If an apology is made I'm sure one of us will let the users know.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> If an apology is made I'm sure one of us will let the users know.


 
okay... but in all reality, i have to ask in the end, if it's the admin team that was slighted how is an apology made to them the business of the users? yeah, it'd be nice to know that the issue was handled and not swept under the rug, but as a user it's really none of my business if he does or does not. 

though, given that this was made public by some on the admin team, addressing it would help settle the drama (even though it's not going to change some peoples' attituded towards Dragoneer.)


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## Eevee (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> okay... but in all reality, i have to ask in the end, if it's the admin team that was slighted how is an apology made to them the business of the users?


The entire purpose of the admin team (and the owner, and everyone else) is to provide a service to users.  How is it _not_ our business how well they function?


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> The entire purpose of the admin team (and the owner, and everyone else) is to provide a service to users.  How is it _not_ our business how well they function?


 
I am going to go out on a limb and say it's because it is a free site.
If there were premium memberships offered and people bought them I think admins might have more room to negotiate changes on behalf of those who buy those accounts. Because it is free I think is why the backlog has been allowed to happen. People donate yes but the fact no one has an actual membership so to speak, gives the impression of "well we aren't getting paid so it doesn't matter."


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> okay... but in all reality, i have to ask in the end, if it's the admin team that was slighted how is an apology made to them the business of the users? yeah, it'd be nice to know that the issue was handled and not swept under the rug, but as a user it's really none of my business if he does or does not.
> 
> though, given that this was made public by some on the admin team, addressing it would help settle the drama (even though it's not going to change some peoples' attituded towards Dragoneer.)


 
It would at least let the users know that Dragoneer did apologize, and that ther eis movement forward going on in that regard. Also, I don't t hink any of us (as admins) are here to be completely unfair to Neer, and fairness would dictate that we report when he's taking steps to rectify the issues as well.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Eevee said:


> These are all highly interconnected problems; it's hard to consider how to resolve yours without acknowledging others.
> 
> Pages 9/10 of a public thread may not be the best place to announce a demand.  I think Dragoneer's stopped replying to criticism threads lately, anyway.


 
Eevee, I'm not dismissing them but think at this time it's best to let it drop (from this thread) and just keep on about this particular issue. Time and time again while the other valid criticisms have come up it becomes this huge multipage discussion of tremendous amounts of text. The message gets lost. The topic gets closed. I don't want another thread like that.

So in the meantime can we at least have this one thread where people despite different points of view of how the site should run or whose fault it is let us have one thread where it stayed on topic and to the point?


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## Ahkahna (Feb 7, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> I agree with the fact that we do need a higher percentage of admins stepping up to fight the neverending ticket problem, which is part of the reason I volunteered, and we do need periodic peer review to keep our @'s from becoming mere status symbols.  However, this proposal in the strictest sense, whether it mainly or exclusively focuses on numbers, I think is a mistake and will encourage us to act in the same way as the most ineffective of call centers: answering and closing tickets with less diligence to solving the actual problems than our members deserve, sacrificing quality for quantity.
> 
> More than simply answering tickets to get our names on the list of closed tickets, we as admins need the kind of teamwork and support mainside that we moderators have here on the forums.  I've seen that from some admins in the short time I've been aboard, including you and Arshes, but only some.  I go down the list of forum leaders here, and I can tell you what all but the non-moderating VIPs do or have done to help the forums, many of them in detail including all of our most recent mods, but when I look at the staff page mainside, I don't even recognize a third of the names at all.


 
Reply continued since I was too tired to push through it this morning:

Peer review would also be a very good thing to have, especially if the peer review was a pre-written questionnaire with very specific points that needed to be discussed about an admin, both positives and negatives, notes on how they could potentially improve, if they need to handle themselves better with the userbase and even if they have done a superb job being friendly and unbiased while dealing with on site issues as long as any negatives are kept in a business like fashion without personal feelings being thrown into the mix. 

Again, the quality to quantity issue I mentioned earlier. Having a minimum yet attainable goal of tickets to get through would be helpful to a major extent. That doesn't mean they can't work more if they so desired, and maybe the option of a "safety zone" where they are close to that goal but for whatever reason just couldn't punch in that month. As long as they are doing so in such a way that is considered helpful, positive, constructive and enlightening also certainly plays into it all. 
*-Just an Example:*
Each admin would be asked to clear through minimum, 25 tickets a month with a desired 50 tickets, however they can still work on more if they so choose. The minimum would be the safety zone and still allows for a rather good helping of work on their part. Of course this is just an example. That way, all hands are on deck and no one feels overworked. Granted it still leaves some admins to only meet the minimum, but at least there's a set goal and at least there's some work done as a whole. 

I do agree too that the team has to be a team, support each other, and work together to make decisions that are in the best interests for the site. This includes the necessity to remove inactive admins as they are not being team members, they are not supporting the team, and they are not taking interest in caring for the userbase. So, to return on track to the entire point Arshes is trying to make: Yes, inactive admins need to be removed. If they've had 3 years to get on the ball, and haven't, that's been a lot of work on us  which could have easily been marked down and handled evenly.


--
Edit:

Glaice: Thank you.


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## Alstor (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> It would at least let the users know that Dragoneer did apologize, and that ther eis movement forward going on in that regard. Also, I don't t hink any of us (as admins) are here to be completely unfair to Neer, and fairness would dictate that we report when he's taking steps to rectify the issues as well.


 
I'm confused. Did he just apologize, or are you talking about if and when he does?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Alstor said:


> I'm confused. Did he just apologize, or are you talking about if and when he does?


 
We'll let you know when he does if he decides to make the apology private.


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## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

I wouldn't accept a private apology from Dragoneer, given this is all  public and he has offended the staff this much. That would just tell he  me he's too cowardly to address the people and admit how foolish he has  acted. It's easy to convey an apology to one's staff privately to keep  them from walking out and severely damaging the site (and giving the  competition some more users in the process), but it's not so easy for  one to tell the entire userbase he's acted badly and that his actions  have been unacceptable. His refusal to contribute to this thread speaks  volumes of where his priorities lie.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

There's been no apology as of yet. In fact, there's been no opportunity FOR an apology to come forth, as shortly after issuing the threat last night he disappeared from online and hasn't been online since. Well, not on IRC anyway.


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## CR-V (Feb 7, 2011)

http://twitter.com/Dragoneer
Last activity was an hour ago. Either he's unaware of this whole deal or he's ignoring it. Either way, I agree with Kantress that the apology should be a public one.


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Kantress said:


> I wouldn't accept a private apology from Dragoneer, given this is all  public and he has offended the staff this much. That would just tell he  me he's too cowardly to address the people and admit how foolish he has  acted. It's easy to convey an apology to one's staff privately to keep  them from walking out and severely damaging the site (and giving the  competition some more users in the process), but it's not so easy for  one to tell the entire userbase he's acted badly and that his actions  have been unacceptable. His refusal to contribute to this thread speaks  volumes of where his priorities lie.


You're just calling names. How exactly is he a coward, or "foolish"?
Besides, if the admins feel they've been wronged, they have the right to ask for an apology. (I'm not an admin, so I can't very well take a stand on this.) However, I don't think Dragoneer did anything at all to the users in this issue. How exactly does he need to address us? We wouldn't even be worrying about this thing if it hadn't been brought up by inconsiderate people.



Witchiebunny said:


> There's been no apology as of yet. In fact, there's been no opportunity FOR an apology to come forth, as shortly after issuing the threat last night he disappeared from online and hasn't been online since. Well, not on IRC anyway.


 Don't forget to avoid quoting it directly.



CR-V said:


> http://twitter.com/Dragoneer
> Last activity was an hour ago. Either he's unaware of this whole deal or he's ignoring it. Either way, I agree with Kantress that the apology should be a public one.


Give the poor man a break, he can't check the site 24/7. If he did, he'd go completely cuckoo!
I heard there was an app that let you post from your phone. Maybe that's what he did, and he can't view the site.


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## Freehaven (Feb 7, 2011)

He also shows as online on AIM.


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## CR-V (Feb 7, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Give the poor man a break, he can't check the site 24/7. If he did, he'd go completely cuckoo!
> I heard there was an app that let you post from your phone. Maybe that's what he did, and he can't view the site.



I'm not saying he should monitor the site all the time, but he's known to avoid discussion when he did something wrong, or just come up with some quick response that actually brings more questions than answers.


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## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

CR-V said:


> I'm not saying he should monitor the site all the time, but he's known to avoid discussion when he did something wrong, or just come up with some quick response that actually brings more questions than answers.


 
granted, if a week or so passes and nothing comes of it, well, then i guess people will have their answer. but let's not be hasty here. if this is such a huge issue that needs to be addressed, which would you rather have? a quick and dirty response while he's elsewhere (probably at work) or would you rather he dedicate his full attention to it when he is able to so he can make sure that the issues are settled properly?


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## CR-V (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> granted, if a week or so passes and nothing comes of it, well, then i guess people will have their answer. but let's not be hasty here. if this is such a huge issue that needs to be addressed, which would you rather have? a quick and dirty response while he's elsewhere (probably at work) or would you rather he dedicate his full attention to it when he is able to so he can make sure that the issues are settled properly?



I guess you're right. Let's see what happens.


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## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> granted, if a week or so passes and nothing comes of it, well, then i guess people will have their answer. but let's not be hasty here. if this is such a huge issue that needs to be addressed, which would you rather have? a quick and dirty response while he's elsewhere (probably at work) or would you rather he dedicate his full attention to it when he is able to so he can make sure that the issues are settled properly?



I wouldn't have gotten on Twitter and have given anyone any possible reason to think I was avoiding the issue until I got this out of the way. This is just telling people he doesn't care.


----------



## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Kantress said:


> I wouldn't have gotten on Twitter and have given anyone any possible reason to think I was avoiding the issue until I got this out of the way. This is just telling people he doesn't care.


 
oh, you mean this tweet?

http://twitter.com/#!/Dragoneer/status/34677979455950848

doesn't sound like he's ignoring it to me.

wait, oh, hahahah... i completely forgot that it's trendy in some circles to immidiately jump on the "Fagoneer is evil" train. i'm not defending him, but neither am i reaching to find justification to crucify him.


----------



## Diocletian (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> http://twitter.com/#!/Dragoneer/status/34677979455950848


 


			
				Dragoneer on Twitter said:
			
		

> Debating how to run a "town hall" meeting on IRC to discuss FA, do moderated/open question/answers. Would we crash Furnet?



Is such a thing necessary? It seems to me from reading this thread that many people already know what is currently wrong with FA and what needs to improve. It's not more talking that's needed, it is action and direction.


----------



## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> Is such a thing necessary? It seems to me from reading this thread that many people already know what is currently wrong with FA and what needs to improve. It's not more talking that's needed, it is action and direction.


 
well, you have to admit it's better than silence... if he's acknowledging it, he knows it's an issue that needs to be addressed. how it's addressed? well, we can argue till we're blue in the face as to how to do it "the right way" but that'd be like arguing over which is better... chocolate or peanut-butter


----------



## Rossyfox (Feb 7, 2011)

Stop spreading misinformation in this thread. Misinformation will get you banned.


----------



## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooow.


----------



## Accountability (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> oh, you mean this tweet?
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/Dragoneer/status/34677979455950848
> 
> doesn't sound like he's ignoring it to me.



This sounds exactly like what he posted in the front page news update for this month. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and is just more of the quest to "open up feedback" and act like there isn't already plenty of that on the forums. You can have as many town hall meetings as you like and you can crash as many IRC servers as you can touch (I'm wondering why not just use FA's 3-node, few user IRC network irc.furaffinity.net) and it won't make a single difference unless someone actually *DOES* something. An IRC town hall would not get anything done, it would just create more "We're working on it"s. It's obvious what the users want. Now somebody has to give it to them.

And yes, earlier I said I was done with this. But I had to come back because I could never imagine that Dragoneer's response to all this would be threatening current and semi-former staff. Unbelievable.


----------



## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

Just something worth pointing out....it's worth noticing, from a "head of administration" POV, when two groups who have previously been diametrically opposed in their stances and opinions (i.e Site admins and Eevee/Diocletian/Accountability/Pi, etc.) come together to deliver the same message in one voice. 

Then it's time to listen.


----------



## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

Redregon said:


> oh, you mean this tweet?
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/Dragoneer/status/34677979455950848
> 
> ...



If he can think of that, he could at least have thought of an apology at least to the staff (I would have accepted a later, more complete public one later if he took that approach). Plus, supposedly, that's nothing new. And, trying to troll me?



Witchiebunny said:


> Just something worth pointing out....it's  worth noticing, from a "head of administration" POV, when two groups who  have previously been diametrically opposed in their stances and  opinions (i.e Site admins and Eevee/Diocletian/Accountability/Pi, etc.)  come together to deliver the same message in one voice.
> 
> Then it's time to listen.



Yes, that would certainly be a good indicator, Witchie.


----------



## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Kantress said:


> If he can think of that, he could at least have thought of an apology at least to the staff (I would have accepted a later, more complete public one later if he took that approach). Plus, supposedly, that's nothing new. And, trying to troll me?.



i dunno... it's not like i can read his mind or anything so rather than jump to conclusions as to his motivations or whatever, i'm going to wait and be patient to see how this unfolds. 

besides, it gives me a chance to make some popcorn. :lol:

and no, i'm not trying to troll you. i'm merely speaking my mind.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Well the apology should come in a day or two I mean if you were that quick to threaten us, you should really apologize.

But pretty much I am standing by the strike notification.


----------



## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

I support any admin who goes on their strike whole-heartedly.


----------



## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

Well, he's around and active.  In the past few hours he's favorited porn and banned Wraywolfe for a week for an insulting shout.

Is he trying to wait this out and hope people forget?


----------



## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

Oh look, a question/answer webpage.

i'll give it a few hours before it's pulled down for abuse.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

"	
Administrator notice:
As part of our attempt to improve site support, we are opening a new knowledge base to better address user problems and concerns. To start, we are asking users to submit legitimate usage questions about Fur Affinity to our new support site. Just click 'submit questions' to submit support related questions to the site. You can visit the new support site here. "

This appears promising. Admins good luck!


----------



## Smelge (Feb 7, 2011)

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I'm just wondering at what point Dragoneer will say "Fuck it" and walk away. At that point, what will happen.

It's a known fact that there's egos in play. Dragoneer seems unwilling to admit fault, or allow people to actually help when it is offered despite a need to fix stuff. At some point, the anti-Dragoneer sentiments will reach the point where he snaps and either kills the site or something similar. Does anyone have a plan if that happens? Buying the site will be tough, unless someone is sitting on a large wad of cash, as the value will have gone up quite a bit since last time it was sold. And even then, the chances of a repeat performance with another ego is high.

The only thing I can see working is something I saw mentioned earlier. A committee of owners. But again, that requires people with no current financial investment to take the plunge, which is an unfair thing to ask.

At the current time, the site works, but is in dire need of updating and fixing. The admin problems need fixed. If the staff can force a change of policies on this, it's a possible starting point to get more done. Getting the leverage to get their apology and the new TT stuff and deadmination on the deadweights would show the admin team have the power to at least alter something, and maybe push for other stuff as well in time.

Good luck to the admin.


----------



## Rossyfox (Feb 7, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> This appears promising. Admins good luck!



Why is it promising? It has nothing to do with the issues at hand.


----------



## CR-V (Feb 7, 2011)

Smelge said:


> It's a known fact that there's egos in play.


 
Not egos. Just one ego, Dragoneer's. And it's a big and fragile one.



> At some point, the anti-Dragoneer sentiments will reach the point where he snaps and either kills the site or something similar.



Chances of him killing the site when pushed in the corner? Very, very small but still there.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

As stated previously, I'm aware of the policies and other things taking place. My concern is now enforcement. As Eevee and others have put, policy is great but it is meaningless if it's not enforced. Other promises had been made and not enforced.


----------



## Bobskunk (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> Oh look, a question/answer webpage.
> 
> i'll give it a few hours before it's pulled down for abuse.


 
Check the other thread about this very page in this subforum.  You say abuse assuming user abuse, but the coding says "HACK ME."



dinosaurdammit said:


> "
> Administrator notice:
> As part of our attempt to improve site support, we are opening a new knowledge base to better address user problems and concerns. To start, we are asking users to submit legitimate usage questions about Fur Affinity to our new support site. Just click 'submit questions' to submit support related questions to the site. You can visit the new support site here. "
> 
> This appears promising. Admins good luck!


 
I don't see much promising about this.  There has been talk for a while.  Most of the talk was denied/shut up/whatever.  We need action, not endless committees to find out what is already known.

This talk should be in another thread, unless you're using this as explanation of activity while ignoring the issues in this thread.  Notice the tweet about this? http://twitter.com/furaffinity/status/34761110976593920

"*once the staff re-org is done*" gives me the impression that some of the strikers are going to get the axe over this thread.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

Wonder who will be left then? The inactive admins?


----------



## Aden (Feb 7, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Wonder who will be left then? The inactive admins?


 
They're probably going to give your job to zaush


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 7, 2011)

Rossyfox said:


> Why is it promising? It has nothing to do with the issues at hand.


 
I suppose I should have entered a :V for the sarcasm to be readable.


----------



## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Aden said:


> They're probably going to give your job to zaush


 
dear gods i hope not. 

i still am fully behind making all admins/mods anon. it would be one small piece of separation that could prevent egos from getting out of hand. and it could also shield the mods from having to make the "hard decisions" of leveling judgements and infractions against their chums.


----------



## Diocletian (Feb 7, 2011)

I noted that on the mainsite, Arshes had posted a journal about this whole thing, about 1/2 an hour ago, and Dragoneer has responded to it:



			
				dragoneer said:
			
		

> And on that note, the new admin policies go active tomorrow. Any  inactive admins following the new policies will be removed.





			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> It's been a long time coming.
> 
> While I see Arshes has gone our of her way to put me on the spot, this  is something I have been working on and striving to resolve. The admin  policies cover far more than ticket management, and go so far as to  leaking private admin issues, user privacy concerns and account security  as a whole.
> 
> People not adhering to those issues will be removed. The idle admin  issue has been a problem, and Arshes is right on that. I do not agree  with her methods here, but I agree with what she has to say nonetheless.





			
				Arshesnei said:
			
		

> It's because you had 2 years to remove them. So yes, I am putting you on the spot for that.





			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> I can respect that, but I posted the revised admin/trouble ticket management policy in the staff chat several times.
> 
> You could have left feedback, responded, given your thoughts. Instead,  here we are. You're leaking private admin information, an act you  yourself no less attacked Witchiebunny over a month ago demanding that  if it happens again any admin taking said actions be removed for doing  so.
> 
> ...





			
				Arshesnei said:
			
		

> I had, your inactive admins had the audacity to complain.
> 
> You had the email last month.
> 
> ...





			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> I have no excuse. Complacency? Best word I can put down.
> 
> It's not my intent to burn. I want to fix this, resolve this, move on  and improve the site. What I said this weekend was out of line, said out  of anger and frustration at the situation. I'm frustrated with myself,  and I took it out on the people who didn't deserve it. I'm not above  admitting an error.
> 
> ...





			
				Arshesnei said:
			
		

> Thank you for understanding.
> 
> I will be happy to work with you as long as I see the improvement. The  inactive admins are long past their due, there is no policy where we  need to see that. If they want back as Pinkuh's suggestion they will  need to re-apply and re-train, but they got a line now. We are showing  promise with those forum members. You should really see how much they  want to work together to improve the site.
> 
> ...


----------



## Alstor (Feb 7, 2011)

All I see is new policies and another side of the argument. No apologies. No confirmation of those inactive admins getting kicked off. Just "well, if it happens, we'll kick them." When will that be? Another two years?

I know that I'm not in the staff IRC chat, but from what I see in Arshes' journal, it looks like the reaction we would expect from him.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm sure it's much worse in the chat ('m at work). Or at least I wouldn't be surprised if he wants my head on a stick. However, I felt this was the right thing to do, we shouldn't as staff feel silenced and scared of talking about that with no action. We don't always get along, which is a side matter, but ones that don't do the work was clear cut for a long time.

The thing is I'm willing to get it (get in trouble) if it means it's for the good of the staff and users. Like I said, I've been banned many times from this site before. I have no intention of trying to wrest the site from him. I understand the burden. I'm not trying to be the leader really. I got a life to live and no offense, I don't really want to be "head honcho of a furry site" - I'm just an artist lol. I'm just bringing my experience here, and do my best (even if I'm probably a fuckup lol).


----------



## Taralack (Feb 7, 2011)

At least he's come out and acknowledged it. It might be a tiny step in a somewhat correct direction, but I guess it's something.


----------



## Redregon (Feb 7, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> "*once the staff re-org is done*" gives me the impression that some of the strikers are going to get the axe over this thread.


 
it could also be probable that he's going to listen to what all has been said so far and axe the gloryhounds from staff... until anything is done, there's no way for us to know unless y'all have some insider information or are psychic.

EDIT: and it looks like the lazy bums will be given the boot. bout time, i say.


----------



## ShadowWalker (Feb 7, 2011)

Alrighty...I don't usually chime in on anything, but I will say one thing in response to Dragoneer's responses to Arshes' journal and this is.


No, there was no other way to go about addressing this issue. We as users have seen in the past where stuff has be repeatedly ignored and even the users who's raised the issues get banned. Sorry, but any more the only way to get anything fixed is to make a public case of it and drum up so much support that it actually get's through Dragoneer's ego.

And that's how I feel. And if I get banned for stating my opinion, users of this site aught to start thinking hard about the way things are run around here.


----------



## Armaetus (Feb 7, 2011)

I'll be watching that admin list like a hawk to see if it will be smaller...I am because actions speak louder than words tenfold.


----------



## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

As I predicted, he gave a forced apology (or should I say 'semi-apology', since he didn't even say 'I'm sorry' or 'I apologize'?) to Arshes rather than to us, and didn't explain himself to us for his completely inexcusable behavior regarding both the threat and keeping on useless staff. His gestures were forced and I neither applaud him nor am convinced he will follow through on his promises. I'm eager to see how things are 1, 2, 3 months from now, and how many staff are fired versus how many quit out of disgust. I expect most of the inactive staff to do a slight amount of work, enough for Dragoneer to say they're following this policy he was supposedly going to release tomorrow (yeah, like I buy he just so happened to be so close to publishing the policy before this started), but too little for some active staff to tolerate, and either we'll be back here all over again or people will start quitting. In other words, FA's business as usual.


----------



## MandertehPander (Feb 7, 2011)

Kantress said:


> As I predicted, he gave a forced apology (or should I say 'semi-apology', since he didn't even say 'I'm sorry' or 'I apologize'?) to Arshes rather than to us, and didn't explain himself to us for his completely inexcusable behavior regarding both the threat and keeping on useless staff. His gestures were forced and I neither applaud him nor am convinced he will follow through on his promises. I'm eager to see how things are 1, 2, 3 months from now, and how many staff are fired versus how many quit out of disgust. I expect most of the inactive staff to do a slight amount of work, enough for Dragoneer to say they're following this policy he was supposedly going to release tomorrow (yeah, like I buy he just so happened to be so close to publishing the policy before this started), but too little for some active staff to tolerate, and either we'll be back here all over again or people will start quitting. In other words, FA's business as usual.


 Because she made it public on the main site. He had to say SOMETHING... right?


----------



## Witchiebunny (Feb 7, 2011)

To be fair, he WAS working on this prior to Arshes saying anything, he made that pretty clear in the admin chat. While this was in the making (and he's not just saying that), I also feel that this thread was necessary.


----------



## Kantress (Feb 7, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> Because she made it public on the main site. He had to say SOMETHING... right?


 
 Well, granted, even if it is forced and insincere, it would have been  better to do that than to do nothing. My point is, it took this much  effort and humiliation to get any response at all.



Witchiebunny said:


> To be fair, he WAS working on this prior to  Arshes saying anything, he made that pretty clear in the admin chat.  While this was in the making (and he's not just saying that), I also  feel that this thread was necessary.



I expected he was saying this was in the works and shit, but I highly  doubt he just so happened to be so close to finishing it. It would have  been published a lot further from now if Arshes had said nothing.


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 7, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> To be fair, he WAS working on this prior to Arshes saying anything, he made that pretty clear in the admin chat. While this was in the making (and he's not just saying that), I also feel that this thread was necessary.


 Speaking of that matter, has anyone noticed that we _always_ have a solution in the works and almoooooost ready whenever shitstorms like these happen?

Also if all the admins were banned and we actually had new admins, I would fucking lol.


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm curious the degree of information and ETA of this policy (that Dragoneer has almost completed) that the admins knew. Did you know it also encompassed dealing with lazy staff? Were you aware of it's progress, to the point of a predictable implementation time? To what extent was the information communicated in regards to each of these?

Presumably, had there been full transparency in this (to the staff!!) then this entire thread wouldn't exist. It seems like a safe assumption that communication was not very clear. Leaders are responsible for proper communication. Dragoneer can "not agree with" Arshes Nei's methods, but it does seem to be necessary.

I don't get the constant secrecy all around FA. It doesn't prevent any drama, it just inflates it. It's practically a source of drama. Shit storm after shit storm happens, and it's always made apparent how a bit of transparency would have lessened the impact so much. Furries are terrible at keeping secrets, it seems, so these things always become a comedy of errors. On the other hand, when the secrets are kept, people assume the worst... and it's perfectly valid to do so given the circumstances.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

I will try to explain this again. It's nice we will have a policy and code of conduct. However, although it was a small part of the issue the real issue was enforcement.

I don't know why anyone can sit here and tell me "well see he was working on policy" that anyone in their right mind would get upset at me saying "look it's been 2 goddamn years, they need to go now". YEARS!

It's not like some petty shit. It's pretty much the same group of admins Dave mentioned in this thread when he was around years ago. It's not just their inactivity but they can be disruptive to the irc chat by not helping and making snide remarks and inane conversation.

So all these promises...dude years. Even now some have the audacity to stick around knowing they've done zilch. Just leave. Please.


----------



## Accountability (Feb 8, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> Oh look, a question/answer webpage.
> 
> i'll give it a few hours before it's pulled down for abuse.


 
It's like you're psychic or something!

So, tomorrow is here, did the policies go into effect yet?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> I'm curious the degree of information and ETA of this policy (that Dragoneer has almost completed) that the admins knew. Did you know it also encompassed dealing with lazy staff? Were you aware of it's progress, to the point of a predictable implementation time? To what extent was the information communicated in regards to each of these?


 
I guess this should be addressed and with some honesty. 

A month ago or at least soon after the hacks I had emailed Neer on this matter. I did get told there would be drafts of a policy. No exact ETA, but I did give him an ETA when I would go public if idle admins were not terminated, which was this month. I think few days after I posted the post I emailed him again, unsure if he actually saw my post and told him the matter is public. So basically I went through on making the matter public like I said I would. So yes, I know he told me he was writing conduct and the policy on TTs. I still didn't have an exact Eta other than "Soon" or something to that effect. I knew of some "kb" but didn't know the software or what it entailed. Before anyone jumps on that statement, it very may have been explained on the chat, and I missed it. I just pretty much got murmurs or seeing yak and Neer work on something apparently?

But again and  I know I'm being redundant, the dead weight admins should have been rid of. I'm tired of the do-overs and chances these people got which is way more than I've been treated. 

Basically to me the order of these actions are backwards.

It shouldn't have been "Well now I have a policy and you got 10 days to shape up or I kick you out"
The order should have been. "I have removed you because you had years to correct your actions, but now I have a policy in place to prevent this in the future"

The latter shows a true corrective action and real showing on how to improve and work from your mistakes.


----------



## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

I won't be taking sides in this, but there is something I want to say.
I find myself disappointed at how the staff behaved itself in this situation; I expected better of them. This could have easily been resolved internally if they raied this issue in the admin chat with Dragoneer directly - or at the very least - made him aware of this thread long before it became something resembling a revolt with ultimatums blazing; and people making wild assumptions as to why they are supposedly being ingored.
They didn't need to make such a big deal out of such a trivial matter which many of them knew has already been decided upon - neither did they need to rile the userbase against one person accusing him of all the site's problems, and overdramatizing his response in public when he admittedly over-reacted; going against the principal rule of what goes on in the admin chat, stays there.
You may say that the goals justify the means, but I belive they gravely wronged when they chose this approach. Their actions have undermined whatever little integrity and soundness the staff had; which are vital attributes to an all-volunteer team. That is inexcusable.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Feb 8, 2011)

Uhm... Yeah Yak... It seems you've certianly taken a side here actually...


----------



## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> I won't be taking sides in this, but there is something I want to say.
> I find myself disappointed at how the staff behaved itself in this situation; I expected better of them. This could have easily been resolved internally if they raied this issue in the admin chat with Dragoneer directly - or at the very least - made him aware of this thread long before it became something resembling a revolt with ultimatums blazing; and people making wild assumptions as to why they are supposedly being ingored.
> They didn't need to make such a big deal out of such a trivial matter which many of them knew has already been decided upon - neither did they need to rile the userbase against one person accusing him of all the site's problems, and overdramatizing his response in public when he admittedly over-reacted; going against the principal rule of what goes on in the admin chat, stays there.
> You may say that the goals justify the means, but I belive they gravely wronged when they chose this approach. Their actions have undermined whatever little integrity and soundness the staff had; which are vital attributes to an all-volunteer team. That is inexcusable.


 
Do I need to remind you Dragoneer essentially threathened to demote people who kept bringing up an important issue, at the same time demonstrating he was more ready to cover his own ass than implement actual, necessary changes? (Like demoting people that need to be demoted, actually?

No, this needs to go out of the admin chat. The very reason why confidentiality rules are being broken is because people in positions of power are abusing them to do shit like this and have it go unpunished. I also wish FA could upgrade without a shitstorm (although it's usually lulzy), but I doubt we'd be where we were if there wasn't a major outcry against dragoneer. No, we'd mysteriously have a few more "honorary members" at most.


----------



## Witchiebunny (Feb 8, 2011)

Actually I'd like to remind you Yak that Dragoneer WAS made aware of this thread before there were any ultimatums made-his response is what brought the ultimatum on. Also, Yak, you're saying you'd rather we sit down and shut up for the good of the "overall soundness" of the team, instead of speaking up when we felt we were being marginalized and ignored/dismissed/threatened over an issue?

Well then.


----------



## Sax (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Their actions have undermined whatever little integrity and soundness the staff had; which are vital attributes to an all-volunteer team. That is inexcusable.



No, just the opposite, for me. It made me see there are staff members wiling to work this out instead of thinking no staff members give a shit about the various problems of the site.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

No sorry, I'm going to stand up for what was right for the staff and their morale. As you can clearly see it affected more than one person. People who were active. Far too long we went into the "not rock the boat, be quiet" mode that has not worked very well. The people who were active weren't answering something like twice as many tickets than the ones who weren't. They were answering 100x the amount of tickets. Their number of ticket answering was in the triple digits while  our dead weights? Single digits. We certainly have one at 0 giving you and I shit in the past. 

There is a difference between being whiny and disruptive, vs allowing things like that to be a disruption. That's a disruption that has gone on far too long.


----------



## Arrin_Fox (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> I won't be taking sides in this, but there is something I want to say.
> I find myself disappointed at how the staff behaved itself in this situation; I expected better of them. This could have easily been resolved internally if they raied this issue in the admin chat with Dragoneer directly - or at the very least - made him aware of this thread long before it became something resembling a revolt with ultimatums blazing; and people making wild assumptions as to why they are supposedly being ingored.
> They didn't need to make such a big deal out of such a trivial matter which many of them knew has already been decided upon - neither did they need to rile the userbase against one person accusing him of all the site's problems, and overdramatizing his response in public when he admittedly over-reacted; going against the principal rule of what goes on in the admin chat, stays there.
> You may say that the goals justify the means, but I belive they gravely wronged when they chose this approach. Their actions have undermined whatever little integrity and soundness the staff had; which are vital attributes to an all-volunteer team. That is inexcusable.


 

Actually, as others have said, this, combined with the Miserable Users thread, showed me more than anything else that there _are _staff members that actually care about the site and that want to improve it/clean up things and try to make things better for everyone.

And again, as others have said, I really didn't see the 'something resembling a revolt' until Dragoneer made threats to strip multiple people of thier admin positions because...they _dared to speak thier minds_?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

On another note I'm about to ban a certain teenager for being a troll.


----------



## Freehaven (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> I won't be taking sides in this



Right. Sure.



yak said:


> This could have easily been resolved internally if they raied this issue in the admin chat with Dragoneer directly - or at the very least - made him aware of this thread long before it became something resembling a revolt with ultimatums blazing; and people making wild assumptions as to why they are supposedly being ingored.



And then all of this would have been swept under the rug, the userbase none the wiser in regards to what's going on behind the scenes while Dragoneer gets to carry on like nothing happened.

Something happened, and he can't ignore it or make it go away this time. He actually has to face the problem publicly now. All in all, I'd say that's for the best.



yak said:


> neither did they need to rile the userbase against one person accusing him of all the site's problems, and overdramatizing his response in public when he admittedly over-reacted; going against the principal rule of what goes on in the admin chat, stays there.



I don't blame Dragoneer for all of the site's problems, but he isn't _completely_ blameless. He has helped foster an attitude and behaviour in the administrators/moderators that is shameful, and Arshes actually had the balls to say "NO U" when Pinkuh was threatened, which is probably the best start to breaking that attitude and changing that behaviour.

As for the "admin chat" thing: yes, I understand the need to keep some things private, but when Dragoneer openly threatens another admin with termination and makes all the other admins feel as if their spots are in danger because of a problem that he should have been addressing in the first place, I would argue that making such knowledge public isn't exactly "against the best interests" of the site.



yak said:


> Their actions have undermined whatever little integrity and soundness the staff had



The "miserable users" thing might have had more to do with that, though.

Personally, I give Arshes, Pinkuh, Witchie, and all of the other admins who have come forward credit for not backing down to Dragoneer's threat and saying "we will not be treated like this". That shows more integrity, in my opinion, than letting Dragoneer "disappear" another problem.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

I know I said it in another thread months back but I want to say this too.

It speaks volumes when a pregnant person is working 100x more than other staff members. That's actually shameful. I'm not saying pregancy makes you some weak ass incapable of doing nothing, but damn...wtf?

Not only that but when you have someone handling that many volume of tickets, more mistakes will be made. That also makes that person visible and more prone to more scrutiny whether or not its justified. You essentially created whipping boys or scapegoats because those people are going that much work. So yeah I'm irritated how people think this isn't a big deal or try to marginalize it. While you can go into the "Set up a system argument" that takes time. We're dealing with what we have now. 

Who the hell really would want to handle that many tickets constantly knowing that means it's another piece of fodder for lulz or what have you?

People doing the work are targets for groups to shame (not that I'm saying they're blameless - as I know they've made mistakes). It's not like the idle admins are getting that bullshit. I mean even now it's not like I see much calling out of names and saying how lazy they are in other places. We just talk about them in general.

But if Pinkuh fucks up, here we go again. If it's Witchiebunny, here we go again. Those idle admins, eh oh well let's just talk about them in general they get to stay quiet and out of the spotlight for years and get status.

Holy crap that is unfair for 2 years.


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> I find myself disappointed at how the staff behaved itself in this situation; I expected better of them.


 
A due date was set, and they began to follow through on dealing with it when it was not met. Clearly you expected worse of them, not better.

They should not be blamed and talked down upon for acting upon a concern like they said they would. It really sounds like they should be learned from. Recognize what responsibility entails.

EDIT: Is the FA staff climate really so backwards that clearly communicated action is looked down upon, and everything is on a need-to-know basis even between a number of each other? You can't run anything on promises, guys. Your own staff is telling you that right now.


----------



## Kantress (Feb 8, 2011)

Uhh, right, sure, Yak. Anyway, I have a question. You said the strike would happen if inactive admins were not fired today. Do you still plan on going through with that? If not, why not?


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## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> Do I need to remind you Dragoneer essentially threathened to demote people who kept bringing up an important issue, at the same time demonstrating he was more ready to cover his own ass than implement actual, necessary changes? (Like demoting people that need to be demoted, actually?


Do I need to remind you that know exactly zilch about what actually took place other then what you've been told in this thread? I am getting very annoyed at people speaking out of their ass like they know what happened. You haven't been there. I have.
It was very easy to take what Dragoneer said the way the staff here did. Because it was convenient and reinforcing their point at the time, or they really wanted it to be that way. I don't know.
Dragoneer is not perfect and the other staff certainly aren't perfect either. Everyone gets overwhelmed, frustrated or angry and when they do they say stupid shit they wouldn've normally have said. The next day it becomes a shameful memory.
This was never held against them before like it has been done here. 




ElizabethAlexandraMary said:


> No, this needs to go out of the admin chat. The very reason why confidentiality rules are being broken is because people in positions of power are abusing them to do shit like this and have it go unpunished.


No. The reason why confidentiality rules are being broken is because the people break them. This thread is a good example of that.

I stand my my point that this insignificant issue could have easily been resolved internally.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 8, 2011)

Actually, I personally respect these admins more for having said they were going to do something, setting a date, and following through as promised. Keeping one's promises, taking action when one says one will, all for the benefit of the community--_that's_ leadership, and I commend them for it.

You did take a side, Yak, don't even try to deny it. We're tired of the secrets and the unfulfilled promises. We want a team that believes in honesty and transparency and action, like the admins in this thread have demonstrated.


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## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> Actually I'd like to remind you Yak that Dragoneer WAS made aware of this thread before there were any ultimatums made-his response is what brought the ultimatum on.


He was also aware that it had been moved to the admin fora by a mod who suspected it has been posted to the public area in error. He was legitimately surprised having found out it had been moved back and there's a full blown shitstorm brewing.




Witchiebunny said:


> Also, Yak, you're saying you'd rather we sit down and shut up for the good of the "overall soundness" of the team, instead of speaking up when we felt we were being marginalized and ignored/dismissed/threatened over an issue?
> Well then.


I would expect you to resolve it internally, or at least attempt to.
I am not posting here to spark any further conflict between the staff, but I will express my doubt that you'd be fine with TFP admins discussing their issues with you on your fora or a steam group, instead of taking them to you directly.


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## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

Saxfyle said:


> No, just the opposite, for me. It made me see there are staff members wiling to work this out instead of thinking no staff members give a shit about the various problems of the site.


It may have ended up improving the public image of FA and the involved staff members in particular, but at the expense of the site owner's reputation and more or less friendly relationships between the staff. 
The latter has been cracked I'm afraid.


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## Eevee (Feb 8, 2011)

Forgive my brief diversion here:



yak said:


> I won't be taking sides in this


I'm noticing an alarming trend in which you do, in fact, side with Dragoneer on just about everything lately.



yak said:


> I find myself disappointed at how the staff behaved itself in this situation; I expected better of them.


Can't imagine how _that_ feels.



yak said:


> ...and people making wild assumptions as to why they are supposedly being ingored.


I'm also noticing an alarming trend in which you dismiss non-admin input because it's based on _wild assumptions_, but refuse to identify or correct the faulty assumptions, *and then continue to promote secrecy within FA*.  What on earth is your game?



More relevantly: I think you're missing the actual complaint contained in these dozen pages, which is that Dragoneer doesn't _do_ things.  Whether he decides something (and please note that he takes months to finalize details or whatever) and whether he does something are entirely unrelated.  _Working on a policy_ is laughably worthless if there have been obvious internal problems for years and zero attempt to actually resolve them.


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## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> No sorry, I'm going to stand up for what was right for the staff and their morale. As you can clearly see it affected more than one person. People who were active. Far too long we went into the "not rock the boat, be quiet" mode that has not worked very well. The people who were active weren't answering something like twice as many tickets than the ones who weren't. They were answering 100x the amount of tickets. Their number of ticket answering was in the triple digits while  our dead weights? Single digits. We certainly have one at 0 giving you and I shit in the past.
> 
> There is a difference between being whiny and disruptive, vs allowing things like that to be a disruption. That's a disruption that has gone on far too long.


Understand this, Arshes - I have zero problems with what you are trying to accomplish. I do not agree with the means you have chosen.

There was nothing stopping any of this from taking place internally. None of you were ever obliged to stay quiet in your own little hierarchy niche because we don't even have a concept of those; if any of the staff thinks we do, they just need to let go of that and simply be braver.
You never spoke up with this much initiative and intent before. Maybe it was the public exposure that stimulated you, I don't know. But I doubt you would have failed to achieved your goal if this thread stayed in the admin fora where it was moved.

Look at what you've caused over such an an insignificant issue. I do not agree with such means.


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## Pi (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> It was very easy to take what Dragoneer said the way the staff here did. Because it was convenient and reinforcing their point at the time, or they really wanted it to be that way. I don't know.


yeah, it's just the EVIL TROLLS trying to make the staff look bad. We're just ~misinterpreting~ like the Greek sophists! you tell 'em, yak.

Meanwhile, on fucking Round Earth, the social and technological structure of this organization is toxic and broken. Gonna do something about that, or just complain about appearances?


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## Eevee (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> None of you were ever obliged to stay quiet in your own little hierarchy niche because we don't even have a concept of those; if any of the staff thinks we do, they just need to let go of that and simply be braver.
> You never spoke up with this much initiative and intent before. Maybe it was the public exposure that stimulated you, I don't know. But I doubt you would have failed to achieved your goal if this thread stayed in the admin fora where it was moved.


Maybe it's easier to speak up when you're not locked in a secret room controlled by the person you're trying to sway, where uttering the conversations to anyone else is verboten?

You yourself abandoned a pursuit that could make the site safe because of internal issues.  Clearly all is not well.


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## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

This thread isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. All it's doing is helping to ensure action takes place to remedy the problem. It's valid, and definitely beats out a chance of just getting more empty promises.

Understand that it's criticism. It is not technically drama until someone starts throwing purely subjective theatrics around to make other feel ba-


yak said:


> Look at what you've caused over such an an insignificant issue. I do not agree with such means.


 
Well now it's drama.


----------



## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

Arrin_Fox said:


> Actually, as others have said, this, combined with the Miserable Users thread, showed me more than anything else that there _are _staff members that actually care about the site and that want to improve it/clean up things and try to make things better for everyone.


If this is the only thing this thread achieved, then it's really sad, sort of.
There always were. But there were fare less destructive ways to make that much obvious.



Arrin_Fox said:


> And again, as others have said, I really didn't see the 'something resembling a revolt' until Dragoneer made threats to strip multiple people of thier admin positions because...they _dared to speak thier minds_?


Again I insist you use reason and don't take such claims at face value, especially coming from the affected party. What has happened could have been interpreted in several ways - and in a few other dismissed altogether. The interpretation chosen was most convenient. 

Several people overwhelm a guy in a conversation with a mixture of bluntness, rudeness and some cold hard truth. Get him to over-react and say something stupid under the influence. Pick the most convenient interpretation of the event, make a public spectacle of it.
It would've happened normally, otherwise or under different conditions. I was expecting the staff to understand that situation, as many of them has been in similar shoes before.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Understand this, Arshes - I have zero problems with what you are trying to accomplish. I do not agree with the means you have chosen.
> 
> Look at what you've caused over such an an insignificant issue. I do not agree with such means.


 
Thank you for marginalizing staff morale. :/

This wasn't solved internally for a long time and you know it better than anyone else.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Look at what you've caused over such an an insignificant issue. I do not agree with such means.


 "You bad child, look at what you've down now! Look at all this trouble! Go stand in the corner!"

Really? It's not insignificant. And we were nice and calm until you came in and started scolding Arshes and Witchie and the others; _now _we're in an uproar.


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## Eevee (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Again I insist you use reason and don't take such claims at face value, especially coming from the affected party. What has happened could have been interpreted in several ways - and in a few other dismissed altogether. The interpretation chosen was most convenient.


Unless you're prepared to correct the statements you criticize, merely proclaiming them false is meaningless.  *Put up or shut up.*

Or at the very least, stop blaming everyone else for FA's tight-lippedness.  You could always break free of your non-existent hierarchical constraints and get _that_ fixed, which would _actually resolve this problem_.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> It may have ended up improving the public image of FA and the involved staff members in particular, but at the expense of the site owner's reputation and more or less friendly relationships between the staff.
> The latter has been cracked I'm afraid.


 
Only if he doesn't do things.
And actually there's very few staff that are actually fragmented over this, unless you're talking about the idle admins still sitting to this day.

Most of the staff active are not divided but actually mostly united to push for things that need to be done.

I actually went by my deadline of Feb. When I tell staff members I'm going to fix stuff, I give them a day I intend to do it on the forums. They see those days. If I forget I tell them to remind me. Because that is my duty to help.


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## Marx-Paragon (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> There was nothing stopping any of this from taking place internally.


 

Save for Dragoneer's threats to the admins unless they kept their mouths shut.


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## Eevee (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I actually went by my deadline of Feb. When I tell staff members I'm going to fix stuff, I give them a day I intend to do it on the forums.


Yes.  This is how you do things.

By, er, doing them, I guess.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 8, 2011)

Marx-Paragon said:


> Save for Dragoneer's threats to the admins unless they kept their mouths shut.


 Or just 'Neer's long-standing unwillingness to get rid of the dead-weight admins.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Yak, another thing, did you notice something...something that happened significantly in this thread?

During the whole time we had these interactions, I politely warned those "Trolls" or "usual suspects of detractors" to keep it within my topic.

They pretty much respected that and followed what I said but sometimes they'd derail, but when I stepped in and reminded them. They remembered to quit, even if I have to be a bit more stern. Doesn't that speak for something? That you know it's actually possible to talk to each other in a reasonable matter so long as the common goal is to get something done for the positive?

You want to marginalize this, but you don't see some of the steps that happened for the better. 

You like How to Train Your Dragon, right? Remember that part where he says "All of what we know about you is wrong"

If these users can come to an understanding and not make it a constant "let's use this as our time to bitch about Dragoneer, and other issues" maybe something CAN be done.


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## Arrin_Fox (Feb 8, 2011)

Eevee said:


> Yes. This is how you do things.
> 
> By, er, doing them, I guess.


 
Exactly. I have a lot of respect for the admins who saw a problem, said 'Hey, this is a problem. Here's a deadline for going public with this issue if it's not fixed,' and then..._actually went through with what they said_! That, to me, is proactive leadership that's trying to do something.


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## Pi (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> You want to marginalize this



This has been an endemic issue in my discussions with yak. Every criticism I brought up about, say, the templating system was dismissed with "it works well enough", ie "it's a marginal issue". This is not responsible system administration, and look at the social impact it's having.

Now look at the people who offer to help: they're accused of having destructive ends and of deliberately misinterpreting things to the detriment of people's personal feelings. This is not responsible social administration, and look at how it's reflected in the technical aspects.

Everything about this situation is wrong. Yak, wake up.


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## Freehaven (Feb 8, 2011)

yak: nobody here wants to see the admins go on strike, or see the site fall apart, or see the Mayan Apocalypse befall Dragoneer.

But marginalizing the feelings and morale of the admins/mods and placing Dragoneer and the privacy of the admin chat above said feelings/morale isn't helping solve any of FA's problems, least of all the admins feeling marginalized and threatened.

If you want to see the admins/mods all quit and let the site go into a state of decay, by all means - keep acting as if the admins' concerns aren't legitimate. You're just perpetuating the "sweep it under the rug" mentality that FA has become infamous for.


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## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> And then all of this would have been swept under the rug, the userbase none the wiser in regards to what's going on behind the scenes while Dragoneer gets to carry on like nothing happened.
> 
> Something happened, and he can't ignore it or make it go away this time. He actually has to face the problem publicly now. All in all, I'd say that's for the best.


If you'll excuse me being blunt for the moment, it's none of your damn business and you should be non the wise about the affairs of the staff unless you are staff yourself.

It's this ridiculous notion in this fandom that any and all details on anything should be revealed and faced public scrutiny, because there is some delicious drama there rooted in the fact that *gasp* the world isn't perfect an nothing runs perfectly.




Freehaven said:


> I don't blame Dragoneer for all of the site's problems, but he isn't _completely_ blameless. He has helped foster an attitude and behaviour in the administrators/moderators that is shameful, and Arshes actually had the balls to say "NO U" when Pinkuh was threatened, which is probably the best start to breaking that attitude and changing that behaviour.


None of the staff is blameless. But it was never a time when their blame was taken and thrown at their face publicly, and made fuel to a huge argument. This is the way to ridicule someone and then kick them out of the staff; not the way to try to get things done.



Freehaven said:


> As for the "admin chat" thing: yes, I understand the need to keep some things private, but when Dragoneer openly threatens another admin with termination and makes all the other admins feel as if their spots are in danger because of a problem that he should have been addressing in the first place, I would argue that making such knowledge public isn't exactly "against the best interests" of the site.


I insist that drop this ridiculously one sided interpretation of the event. See my replies to other people for a more detailed explanation.



Freehaven said:


> Personally, I give Arshes, Pinkuh, Witchie, and all of the other admins who have come forward credit for not backing down to Dragoneer's threat and saying "we will not be treated like this". That shows more integrity, in my opinion, than letting Dragoneer "disappear" another problem.


That's what I mean by blaming all on Dragoneer. 
This might have not been the intended development, but it ended up with a PR boost of selected individuals a the expense of terrible Dragoneer, the root cause of all evil on FA.


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## ShadowWalker (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Look at what you've caused over such an an insignificant issue. I do not agree with such means.


 
Insignificant issue? You're calling the fact that there are admins are not doing their jobs and handling trouble tickets, thus making the system back up and issues not handled in a timely fashion is insignificant...so what is your definition of something significant?


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## Aden (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> If you'll excuse me being blunt for the moment, it's none of your damn business and you should be non the wise about the affairs of the staff unless you are staff yourself.


 
But...why? What's so secret and important that you have to keep it under wraps like that? Think of how much shit could be avoided if you just opened up a little - and a little bit of drama is no excuse to not do it. I'm honestly at a loss here.

It's not exactly national security.


----------



## Pi (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> *a whole bunch of Dragoneer apologism*


Yak, get back to figuring out why PHP cores so damn often on your box. You're not very good at this PR thing. Let Dragoneer defend himself.


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## Dodger Greywing (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> If you'll excuse me being blunt for the moment, it's none of your damn business and you should be non the wise about the affairs of the staff unless you are staff yourself.
> 
> It's this ridiculous notion in this fandom that any and all details on anything should be revealed and faced public scrutiny, because there is some delicious drama there rooted in the fact that *gasp* the world isn't perfect an nothing runs perfectly.


 You think this is about "delicious drama"? Jesus Christ, NO, you fool, this is about wanting to see a site we all use and enjoy _work _and _work well_. And in case you've forgotten, these admins are just as much members of the fandom as we are, and we care about our fellow furries, even if you don't. Holy hell, we're not all a bunch of self-involved children here for the lulz; SOME OF US CARE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE CARE.


----------



## Eevee (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> If you'll excuse me being blunt for the moment, it's none of your damn business and you should be non the wise about the affairs of the staff unless you are staff yourself.


Are you running a community, or a faceless corporation?  It's not at all unreasonable to expect that people from your community, running a site for your community, would perhaps want to...  engage with that community in a meaningful way.

You want to keep everything under wraps, and then you criticize people for guessing despite _supporting the system that requires them to guess_.  Do you want everyone to just be quiet and accept what they're given, or what?



yak said:


> the world isn't perfect an nothing runs perfectly.


Stop saying this; it's condescending and shallow.  "Everything has problems" does *not* excuse any and all problems.



yak said:


> This might have not been the intended development, but it ended up with a PR boost of selected individuals a the expense of terrible Dragoneer, the root cause of all evil on FA.


Yes, this is what being a leader entails.  Welcome to responsibility: it means you're responsible for things!


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## Freehaven (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> If you'll excuse me being blunt for the moment, it's none of your damn business and you should be non the wise about the affairs of the staff unless you are staff yourself.
> 
> It's this ridiculous notion in this fandom that any and all details on anything should be revealed and faced public scrutiny, because there is some delicious drama there rooted in the fact that *gasp* the world isn't perfect an nothing runs perfectly.



We're not asking for EVERY LAST DETAIL to be leaked out to the userbase. But when you run a website, you're providing a service to the userbase of said site - and the users do deserve, to some degree, to be kept abreast of anything that could potentially help or harm the site, including potential rifts between the site owner and the site administrators. This situation is a perfect example.



yak said:


> This might have not been the intended development, but it ended up with a PR boost of selected individuals a the expense of terrible Dragoneer, the root cause of all evil on FA.



I have not once claimed that he is the "root of all evil", but the things he's done to foster the current atmosphere in the administrative sector of the site hasn't helped solve problems, that's for damn sure.

As I said: nobody is blameless. Dragoneer falls within that purview: I'm not going to heap shit on him undeservedly, but I'm not going to kiss his ass, either. If you can't deal with the fact that I'm not here to heap nothing but cocksucking praise upon the Almighty Digimon Ruler, then I suppose you're going to have to _dealwithit.gif_


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 8, 2011)

Yak, I do not appreciate having a completely separate community dragged in to further your own point. TFP admins and I communicate. We disagree, they even confront me on matters. However it stays internal because I LISTEN to them and work with them. If I refused to listen, then yes, they would be well within their rights to take it public. Their loyalty is to the community, not to me, as it SHOULD be.

Of couse you'd know this if you ever showed your face in admin chat.

And the reason Dragoneers actions were taken in such a way is because that's how we took it. You were not affected, nor did you have any of it directed at you so kindly stop trying to deligitimize our feelings on the matter. We have no agenda as you imply, stop making us the bad guys and try listening for a change.


----------



## Summercat (Feb 8, 2011)

Few days later, I still don't know what to say in this thread. ...huh.

Is it frustrating that there are people hanging out in the admin channels who aren't responding when I ask for a second opinion? A bit. I thought out and got someone to make a bit of a workaround, waiting on that to be finalized.

It's just, I dunno. This thread is more confrontational than I like, but I'll fully admit that one of my flaws is that I'm too passive. At the very least, this issue is going to be addressed one way or another. 

I have issues with how things work aside from this, but I don't think anyone really wants to hear them from me - especially since I don't have a firm solution to offer. Saying "This sucks it should be fixed" is nice, saying "This sucks this is how you fix it" is another. 

TLDR: Summercat is being noncommittal.


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## Marx-Paragon (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> If you'll excuse me being blunt for the moment, it's none of your damn  business and you should be non the wise about the affairs of the staff  unless you are staff yourself.



If it were _personal_ affairs of staff members we we interested in, you'd be right. Too bad we're interested in staff affairs as they pertain to a site most of us like using.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2011)

Just my two cents yak.

As a site funded by donations from the community and 'Neer I am disappoint how little transparency there is. I am less likely to donate money to an organization that is hush hush about everything and then says "_it is none of your business_". In a way it is our business- without the fandom there wouldn't be a need for FA or the admins. We wanted change to take place- when nothing was getting done and the staff were threatened for trying to improve things we drew a line and started trying to understand how it could be solved. I believe we were very civil and with the exception of a few trolls found this thread to be very helpful. 

If I donate money to a cause, but find the volunteers that work there demeaned and told to be quiet- then I will stop believing they are doing any good with the money donated to them, for if they cannot treat the people who devote time and effort with no thought of getting paid I doubt they are doing a good job of running the organization effectively.


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## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

It has been made exceedingly clear that getting rid of the dead weight admins is the only thing required to solve this issue. Why other staff would even have to protest this to happen is ridiculous; it is an action towards the best interest of the site no matter how you look at it.

Stating "I don't agree with how they are handling this" is pure bullshit and drama. Nothing is solved, and the problem is only inflated. Congrats on that.

Dragoneer, just rid the useless admins! If this policy isn't a bunch of crap, then you will anyways. This is being made more complicated than is necessary, and inaction is the reason.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Let me try reiterating what I said earlier and see if you can understand why this actually has a bigger impact of "oh those dead weights aren't harming anyone"

Let's give Pinkuh and Witchiebunny a number of TTs they have handled in 3 months and I'll try to make it something like hours in a work environment.

Pinkuh handles something like 900 tickets 
Witchie 800 tickets 

Now the idle ones, under 10

In a work environment and this is why there are work labor laws, you're essentially having these two examples work 14 hour work shifts. Hey looks great they get the "overtime" 

But when you have people take such long work shifts, you know what happens? More mistakes get made, and they are more prone to be visible for such mistakes. The admins get tired, and instead of handling things in a more level headed manner, they're gruff, harsh and say stupid things. This causes a caustic situation. With the amount of tickets he/she handles it puts them on the spot.

Then you have to realize where common sense and some policies need to be in effect we talk about more policies and a code of conduct. We need to do more rules, etc... Which hey needed and fine, but we really didn't look at the big picture here and decided to make the idle admins and unfair workload a somewhat separate issue. It actually does intertwine into the behavior.

Meaning that, because of this skew of workload we don't get a real perception of actual admin conduct. We have a perception of overworked admin conduct. Behavior that would have been easier to rectify isn't because we have stressed out admins who are volunteering their time. The argument can be made that he/she can leave and take breaks - I certainly encourage that...but they're still being burdened by the same workload and have been for several years.

We have an environment where we can't properly evaluate performance and behavior as long as no one is doing their fair share. 

So maybe people didn't realize this before, why this is no small issue.


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## yak (Feb 8, 2011)

Enough replies out of me, have to be leaving now and I doubt I'd want to be returning to this thread later. I takes too long to reply to individual posts, and by the time you finish one you already have ten more posted; time I'd better spend doing something more productive, or relaxing after a day at work.

Think what you will about what I have said. 
The bottom line is, I think it was a bad, one of the worst possible ways this issue could have been resolved in. There were others. Everyone was equally to blame for the issue's existence yet this thread is ridiculously one sided. 

I do not agree that walking on people's heads to your goal is the correct way to deal with issues within an all-volunteer team, based around the understanding and acceptance of individual's own strengths and weaknesses; because lacking any material reward for the work, you don't get to choose much between the people who offer it.
What I am concerned with the most, which brought me to this thread in the first place is this: at the end of the day, when all of this dies down and the core of the issue gets taken care of, will the staff be looking at each other the same way they did before? The public will quickly forget the fleeting drama, but the staff will still be needing to work together.


----------



## Aden (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Think what you will about what I have said.


 
If you agree to also think about what we have said.


----------



## DarkMettaur (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Enough replies out of me, have to be leaving now and I doubt I'd want to be returning to this thread later. I takes too long to reply to individual posts, and by the time you finish one you already have ten more posted; time I'd better spend doing something more productive, or relaxing after a day at work.
> 
> Think what you will about what I have said.
> The bottom line is, I think it was a bad, one of the worst possible ways this issue could have been resolved in. There were others. Everyone was equally to blame for the issue's existence yet this thread is ridiculously one sided.
> ...


 
And thus Yak's 4000th post contained nothing of value.


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## Aden (Feb 8, 2011)

DarkMettaur said:


> And thus Yak's 4000th post contained nothing of value.


 
Oh the irony :V


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

DarkMettaur said:


> And thus Yak's 4000th post contained nothing of value.


 
It read like it was promoting passive aggression as the proper tool for change. It's not. It makes everything worse and more convoluted.


----------



## Bobskunk (Feb 8, 2011)

Yak said:
			
		

> *Everyone was equally to blame*



What a goddamn copout and a lie.

Yes, the staff needs to work together, but you're drawing this false equivalence that makes me want to tear my hair out.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2011)

Aden said:


> Oh the irony :V


 
I don't know if that constitutes as irony. Irony- an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

When yak posted the expatiation remained the same. 

DISAPPOINT.


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## Freehaven (Feb 8, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> It read like it was promoting passive aggression as the proper tool for change. It's not. It makes everything worse and more convoluted.



THIS. The admins spoke up and were aggressive about the situation and now it's actually moving forward. I fail to see what's so wrong about that.


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## Arrin_Fox (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> Think what you will about what I have said.
> The bottom line is, I think it was a bad, one of the worst possible ways this issue could have been resolved in. There were others. Everyone was equally to blame for the issue's existence yet this thread is ridiculously one sided.
> 
> I do not agree that walking on people's heads to your goal is the correct way to deal with issues within an all-volunteer team, based around the understanding and acceptance of individual's own strengths and weaknesses; because lacking any material reward for the work, you don't get to choose much between the people who offer it.
> What I am concerned with the most, which brought me to this thread in the first place is this: at the end of the day, when all of this dies down and the core of the issue gets taken care of, will the staff be looking at each other the same way they did before? The public will quickly forget the fleeting drama, but the staff will still be needing to work together.



If you can't see that ultimately, this being dragged out into the light so that it _has_ to be dealt with is in the best long-term interests of the staff and end users alike, then I truly don't know what to say.

It's also not like this was sprung suddenly on Dragoneer out of the blue, either, from the sounds of things. A deadline was given, the deadline was not met, and then the actions that were laid out as going to happen happened.


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## Eevee (Feb 8, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> I fail to see what's so wrong about that.


That Dragoneer looks bad.

yak has been apologetic towards Dragoneer for some time now.  It's not had a good impact.


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## Aden (Feb 8, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I don't know if that constitutes as irony. Irony- an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.


 
The irony of making fun of someone for posting nothing of value using a post that truly contained nothing of value


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2011)

Eevee said:


> That Dragoneer looks bad.
> 
> yak has been apologetic towards Dragoneer for some time now.  It's not had a good impact.


 
This is unacceptable. This is like standing over a dead animal and complaining about the smell while refusing to bury it- then getting pissed when someone actually picks up a shovels and buries what has been left to rot and fester. 

There needs to be more transparency between how the mods are treated. They are a part of the fandom so they represent how 'Neer treats the fandom. At this point it is almost shameful.


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## DarkMettaur (Feb 8, 2011)

Aden said:


> The irony of making fun of someone for posting nothing of value using a post that truly contained nothing of value


 
Hey, I needed to make an appearance at some point in this thread. I want to hit at least 1000 posts before this hindenburg known as FAF fucking explodes.


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## CR-V (Feb 8, 2011)

Aden said:


> If you agree to also think about what we have said.



What makes you think he will?


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## Aden (Feb 8, 2011)

CR-V said:


> What makes you think he will?


 
It's more of a hope


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Well I know it's because of the way the rest of us admins feel Eevee. We know Dragoneer puts a lot of heart (I know he's well meaning) and funding into this site. As I've stated before he can be temperamental or in Farsi "junazziz" about things. We don't want him thinking "god damn this motherfucker" He has done some good things and made some steps in the positive direction.

However, I think somewhere things got lost. You also want to know why I consider this issue important? Because Neer made that important when he first started. It was like "his issue". He didn't want dead weight admins. I think when you lose "that issue" you need to step back a bit and reflect what were your goals and what were and were not met. What was that issue or cause and why did that get lost.

And yes, we know it's his money and time being primarily put in into this. We know it's tough, we keep saying this but keep getting treated like we aren't.


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## Ahkahna (Feb 8, 2011)

Yak, I will make this absolutely clear from my end. I have nothing but good thoughts about Neer, and I have no intention of dragging him through the mud- my only disappointment is that there was even any remark against an (ex)/admin due to an issue that really should have been taken care of. I also feel personal blame due to -my own in and out inactivity- because of my health issues, and *because I felt incompetent in my abilities as an admin*, _I resigned_. This is without knowing anything about anyone's concerns dealing with inactive admins, I just felt if I were gone then it would allow a better more able admin to take over.

I wish the other inactive admins would have considered this as I did, and also take that stance. If you aren't doing your job well, if you aren't being helpful, it's time to step down.

Up until now I was unaware of other inactive admins, because when I did work, I worked hard and I did my damnedest to be cheerful, helpful, and try to avoid mistakes even when I'd get burned out after days and days of dealing with the backlog of tickets. At the time, I didn't have a clue. Now that I have been made aware (although, I am no longer admin) it bums me out that others could have been assisting but weren't pulling nearly what they _could have_. What their life situations are/were, I have no idea. But 2 years plus of little work? Yes, it bothers me.

Relieving inactive admins shouldn't be like this at all. Honestly, if Neer would have let me go as an admin, I'd have had nothing against it, I'd have held no grudges against staff, nor Neer himself. Then again, that's just me.


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## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

Statements from both Yak and Dragoneer elsewhere indicate that their  biggest problem with this issue is PR. Their biggest concern is PR. Priorities are all messed up. Responsibility dictates that one resolves the issue first, then worries about PR after.

Maybe that's not the case, but it has the definite appearance that it is. The only information available supports irresponsible behaviour on their part, like usual. Ironically, quick appropriate action would accomplish positive PR.


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## Ben (Feb 8, 2011)

Ahkahna said:


> Yak, I will make this absolutely clear from my end. I have nothing but good thoughts about Neer, and I have no intention of dragging him through the mud- my only disappointment is that there was even any remark against an (ex)/admin due to an issue that really should have been taken care of. I also feel personal blame due to -my own in and out inactivity- because of my health issues, and *because I felt incompetent in my abilities as an admin*, _I resigned_. This is without knowing anything about anyone's concerns dealing with inactive admins, I just felt if I were gone then it would allow a better more able admin to take over.



And really, I can't say I'm bitter for being let go either. Granted I wish it had been handled differently, but I feel that's a done-with matter. I suppose it's just shouting into an echo chamber at this point, but it's one thing to do your job and do it questionably, and then not even try to do your job at all. Despite this just being the furry community, no one should have the privilege to status without having earned it or maintained their right to it, and really, that's what the history of FA feels like-- a site that hasn't really done anything to earn its keep as the number one furry site, hunched over by shards of broken promises. 

This whole incident seems to be yet another chapter in the saga in the complacency and laziness of the site, and I don't blame any of the staff for a second for taking this public, and taking a stand. At the end of it all, this is not a national government, and if you guys can't be bothered to have -some- transparency, then your users will eventually become disillusioned, as well as staff, as this thread has plainly shown.


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## nrr (Feb 8, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> Maybe that's not the case, but it has the definite appearance that it is. The only information available supports irresponsible behaviour on their part, like usual. Ironically, quick appropriate action would accomplish positive PR.


 
Similarly, being hyper-transparent about issues that fit into this same class would serve to absolve everyone from worrying about the ensuing problems and strife.  If your site is compromised, say so.  Take it down, replace it with a static page outlining what happened and what steps you are currently taking.  A statement to your userbase needs not be perfect; rather, it simply needs to be useful.

"Team, we found that someone had compromised at least one of the machines on our network.  In order to mitigate the damage caused, we have taken everything offline pending a security audit.  We'll continue to follow up with more information when we have it."  A practice like this works well for Fortune 100 companies, and it works well for discerning furries who need to get their fap on.  Must I say more?

Be informative.  Be willing to relinquish information that lets your userbase know what's going on.  There really isn't much to it.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 8, 2011)

nrr said:


> Similarly, being hyper-transparent about issues that fit into this same class would serve to absolve everyone from worrying about the ensuing problems and strife.  If your site is compromised, say so.  Take it down, replace it with a static page outlining what happened and what steps you are currently taking.  A statement to your userbase needs not be perfect; rather, it simply needs to be useful.
> 
> "Team, we found that someone had compromised at least one of the machines on our network.  In order to mitigate the damage caused, we have taken everything offline pending a security audit.  We'll continue to follow up with more information when we have it."  A practice like this works well for Fortune 100 companies, and it works well for discerning furries who need to get their fap on.  Must I say more?
> 
> Be informative.  Be willing to relinquish information that lets your userbase know what's going on.  There really isn't much to it.


 actually it seems most of this kind of info is posted on Twitter and/or Neers FA account



but hey I dont actually watch em on twitter, NOR have Neer's account on my watch list. Congrats, how will users know what the hell is going on on FA if they too don't look at twitter or have neer on watch.


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## Aden (Feb 8, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> but hey I dont actually watch em on twitter, NOR have Neer's account on my watch list. Congrats, how will users know what the hell is going on on FA if they too don't look at twitter or have neer on watch.


 
When I first got to FA, I didn't even know that Dragoneer was the head of it all until I heard through word-of-mouth a few months down the line.


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## Muir (Feb 8, 2011)

yak said:


> What I am concerned with the most, which brought me to this thread in the first place is this: at the end of the day, when all of this dies down and the core of the issue gets taken care of, will the staff be looking at each other the same way they did before? The public will quickly forget the fleeting drama, but the staff will still be needing to work together.


 
Actually, when "all of this dies down and the core of the issue gets taken care of", the admin who are left will be the hard-working ones and the ones who are actually willing to sit down and talk issues through until an agreement is made and acted on. Those who are against the issue that this thread is about won't be around any longer and FA will be made a lot better for it.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Bringing it back to idle admins.

Ahkahna, you missed a part with your presence on the site. Something of which pissed me off on your behalf.

There was a time when you asked for help from other admins. One of the proposals I made at that time was to have people buddy up with each other. You asked if you could have a buddy and I had to decline because of my double duty on the forums. None of these other admins bothered to offer to help. Especially the idle ones. You had a specialized yourself on art theft, I mean damn it wasn't like harassment tickets but following up on submissions of traces and theft. This was too hard for these idlers to help on?


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 8, 2011)

I want to make it clear that I don't hold any ill will towards Dragoneer over this entire issue-my frustration lies with the issue and his actions, but not with him as a person. So, actually, after this is all and said and done...I'll be happier knowing that I am working with a group of admins who are committed to making the site a better place and are willing to point out issues when they are there, and are willing to take action towards improving the site. I'll be happy knowing that my co-workers and colleagues, volunteers though they are, care enough about FA and have enough integrity that they will step up when it's needed and will do what they can for the site. After this dies down and it's all over, I'll have a LOT more confidence in how my colleagues are handling the site, and know that I'm being held to a higher standard and be prouder of the work I do here because of it.


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## Ahkahna (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes: I actually do remember feeling fairly frustrated about that as I could have really used some help, it would have been nice to have extra hands to take care of those particular TT's. I understood that you were pulling in more work than average @_@ Usually in situations like that, it's nice to have more than one person to get second opinions and I still feel the buddy system would be pretty useful. All I can hope for future and current admins is things will improve backside to help cut down on the workload. 

<3


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## Alstor (Feb 8, 2011)

Back to absent admins (again.)
I take it that the admins in question have not responded to this issue privately with any of you three, nor have they either managed to log onto their own staff IRC. Seeing as one of them streams art every other day, it's kind of inexcusable.

I think the people that think the ones that are presenting the issues, or the "trolls," are actually trying to *help*. They are requesting for replacing admins to *help* with the current workload, especially when the site us so close to an update. They are trying to *help* FA's PR from going down the pothole-filled road that it has been going on for years. They want to *help* the staff so they could become more credible, which would lead to less drama storms, less angry users, and less angry admins.

I just want to say that this thread is taking FA in the right direction. Now, the people that have critized the entire staff for being incompetent now know that there are real staff members that want to see this site change, even if it means going against your superiors. If those superiors could just follow along and make changes, the site could see a complete overhaul for the better.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Alstor said:


> Back to absent admins (again.)
> I take it that the admins in question have not responded to this issue privately with any of you three, nor have they either managed to log onto their own staff IRC. Seeing as one of them streams art every other day, it's kind of inexcusable.
> .


 
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2080847/#cid:17008627

Basically there are people in our staff in the chatroom (IRC) admitting they haven't done work. Yet. They. Are. Still. There.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 8, 2011)

So, where's the policy update?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> So, where's the policy update?


 
I'm at work so I don't know. I think there was a next week iirc and 10 day warning to inactive admins.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 8, 2011)

A ten day warning that was SO not deserved, but at this point whatever float's 'Neer's boat.


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## Alstor (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I'm at work so I don't know. I think there was a next week iirc and 10 day warning to inactive admins.


 So the staff basically have to drag their feet out? Can't they just do the right thing and resign themselves or are they too scared to lose their paper badge?

Inept admins, if you're reading this and wondering why so many people are against you, stuff like this is why.

EDIT: And a "This" to Aurora/MP.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

There may be info I'm missing because I'm not active on the chat/ims right now, I'm at work.

And Alstor, that's what I really don't get myself. I keep seeing it where "you know I am not active that much anymore" yeah like 2 years not really active. What is the problem when one can simply de-admin oneself?

Sometimes what I wonder is if they want to keep status because it helps them get exclusive info behind the scenes like some backstage pass.


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## Freehaven (Feb 8, 2011)

So, some of these admins haven't regularly worked on the site in around two years, and now they're given an extra week and a half to stay on in a position they haven't done anything with?

Goddammit, 'Neerhaven.


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## DarkMettaur (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> There may be info I'm missing because I'm not active on the chat/ims right now, I'm at work.
> 
> And Alstor, that's what I really don't get myself. I keep seeing it where "you know I am not active that much anymore" yeah like 2 years not really active. What is the problem when one can simply de-admin oneself?
> 
> Sometimes what I wonder is if they want to keep status because *it helps them get exclusive info behind the scenes like some backstage pass.*



To be honest that is what I always thought. :| If I had the choice of lurking behind the scenes and gathering dirt on everyone without doing any work for it, I'd take it in a heartbeat. This is why I'd never make a good admin for any large or well known place. Because that would probably be all I would do!


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## Corto (Feb 8, 2011)

Hell, it's what I do on the forums. Good thing the people only care about mainsite administration.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2011)

Corto said:


> Hell, it's what I do on the forums. Good thing the people only care about mainsite administration.


 
Are you saying your signature is a lie!? We have been bamboozled.

What would be the point of sitting there idle and watching stuff happen without actually telling anyone about it. Is it like a free soap opera or something?

"All my Furry Children"


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## Heimdal (Feb 8, 2011)

Does anybody have any knowledge of this new policy? Is "Extreme Secrecy" going to be part of it?

I have a very strong feeling that it will. And for the couple people it benefits, it will leave the users flailing for answers at least as much as we do now.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> Does anybody have any knowledge of this new policy? Is "Extreme Secrecy" going to be part of it?
> 
> I have a very strong feeling that it will. And for the couple people it benefits, it will leave the users flailing for answers at least as much as we do now.


 
I personally want to see what goes on behind the scenes sometimes- especially if nothing is getting done so we know who to go to directly. Having people be behind a curtain seems shady at best.


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## Accountability (Feb 8, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> A ten day warning that was SO not deserved, but at this point whatever float's 'Neer's boat.


 
Why do I get the feeling that the ones receiving the warning will do the bare minimum to show they're "active" over the next 10 days, and then go inactive again, only to be warned again and have the cycle repeat itself in a few months?

No. They've had plenty of warning. This has been going on for two years. *Why is Dragoneer so against just removing them?

*


Heimdal said:


> Does anybody have any knowledge of this new policy? Is "Extreme Secrecy" going to be part of it?
> 
> I  have a very strong feeling that it will. And for the couple people it  benefits, it will leave the users flailing for answers at least as much  as we do now.


 
Since previous discussions about this involved a "strict NDA policy", I'd imagine you're right. And doing things like Arshes and Pinkuh and Witchie did in this thread would probably be a removable offense, seeing how Dragoneer reacted to them.


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## Freehaven (Feb 8, 2011)

Accountability said:


> *Why is Dragoneer so against just removing them?*



He doesn't want to hurt their feelings.

You know, the feelings of the admins he hired to do a job which they have failed to do regularly for around two years.

Seriously, 'Neer - pity is not a valid excuse. If they're not doing the job, fire them. Simple as that.



Accountability said:


> Since previous discussions about this involved a "strict NDA policy", I'd imagine you're right. And doing things like Arshes and Pinkuh and Witchie did in this thread would probably be a removable offense, seeing how Dragoneer reacted to them.



That doesn't need to happen. Transparency, not secrecy, is what is needed from this point forward. Trying to hide things and prevent people from speaking out for fear of losing their admin spot (or worse) is just going to exacerbate the situation.


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## ShadowWalker (Feb 8, 2011)

Accountability said:


> *Why is Dragoneer so against just removing them?*



Cause that would mean him either:

A) Having to truly admit that there is a problem
B) Having to get rid of popu-furs or friends of his that are admins
c) Having to, as some might see it, "give in" to the drama.
D) Any/all of the above


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## Armaetus (Feb 8, 2011)

The policy of removing them should be IMMEDIATELY, not given 10 days to respond...those lazy admins had THREE YEARS to show they actually give two shits about being responsible and helping the site.

And I second the bullshit pity Freehaven mentioned is not acceptable, especially when the mentioned staff I listed earlier don't do anything.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

I wouldn't sign an NDA anyways. Before the "OMG" I'd sign an MNDA. NDAs screw over artists, MNDAs are for the benefit of both parties.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 8, 2011)

ShadowWalker said:


> Cause that would mean him either:
> 
> A) Having to truly admit that there is a problem
> B) Having to get rid of popu-furs or friends of his that are admins
> ...



And/Or 

Dragoneer simply wants to avoid the inevitable "WHY DID YOU REMOVE ME FROM STAFF? I THOUGHT I WAS DOING A FINE JOB. I WAS DOING MY JOB JUST FINE. WHY DIDN'T YOU FIRE "OTHER WORTHLESS ADMIN"?! YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE FOR TAKING AWAY MY "@" SYMBOL!!!" confrontation.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> And/Or
> 
> Dragoneer simply wants to avoid the inevitable "WHY DID YOU REMOVE ME FROM STAFF? I THOUGHT I WAS DOING A FINE JOB. I WAS DOING MY JOB JUST FINE. WHY DIDN'T YOU FIRE "OTHER WORTHLESS ADMIN"?! YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE FOR TAKING AWAY MY "@" SYMBOL!!!" confrontation.


 
If an admin actually goes on a BAAWWWW fest like that I will lose faith in the site as a whole... People with the notion they are doing a good job by doing nothing need to be slapped.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 8, 2011)

I honestly expect nothing different based on what i've heard in this thread.

Namely the ones who gloated about doing jack shit in the IRC and getting away with it. They're the ones going to make the biggest scene. Oh, and somehow become increasingly active in the next ten days :3


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> That doesn't need to happen. Transparency, not secrecy, is what is needed from this point forward. Trying to hide things and prevent people from speaking out for fear of losing their admin spot (or worse) is just going to exacerbate the situation.


 
Well I'm caught in the middle here. Every time there is some headway into trying to be more transparent or open, people overly scrutinize it, nitpick everything. It's to the point of just being frustrated and wondering even why do it.

On the other hand yes, we should be giving out information in a better or more centralized manner. I think everyone has been well intending as a PR but given the crowd it just becomes insane. I mean at least when DA pulls crap those people were getting paid to deal with it XD Granted I know this is a volunteer effort but man...I can see why some of the way things are handled with some secrecy are now.

By centralized I don't look at most of the staff's facebook, twitters and other side stuff because from my viewpoint  I really kinda don't give a crap, it's more of an off site and allowing that admin to have their "sandbox" away from here. 

We have a lot of tools to communicate. We have forums,IMs, Chat, PMs email, The Forums and Gmail has a Calendar. We even have an LJ if something goes down. But some reason, time and time again it's still scattered. Half the time I hate the staff IRC on for the main site because there's so much clutter.... or I gotta ride the SCROOOOOOLLLL Train to keep track of events not being posted elsewhere. And that's WHY a lot of skirmishes or outbreaks occur amongst admins, because of this decentralization. That's why I got tired of it and started generating my own personal email list for the forum staff. 

And really I'm not cut out for PR at least in my opinion.  I don't envy the person who would have to put up with it.


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## Redregon (Feb 8, 2011)

honestly? what i think this site needs (if Dragoneer isn't up to the task of being the meanie) is an H.R. rep. someone to do the dirty work of keeping track of tickets handled, complaints and keeping tabs on who's not pulling their weight and doing the deed of demoting those that aren't willing or able to do their job. 

they'd need someone that'd be able to handle being called nasty shit and just doesn't give a rat's ass about how the other staff members see them. 

at least that way he can remain on somewhat good terms with those that need to be booted.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> I honestly expect nothing different based on what i've heard in this thread.
> 
> Namely the ones who gloated about doing jack shit in the IRC and getting away with it. They're the ones going to make the biggest scene. Oh, and somehow become increasingly active in the next ten days :3



Not to mention unfair. Now we give them an extended break while newer staff never had this extension at all. It just gives those around longer more "seniority rights".


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## Diocletian (Feb 8, 2011)

I cannot but imagine, as people have said, that the idle admins may lurch into life for little while, and then getting the policy enforced will become a protracted struggle: dragging out the issue over weeks and months.

The presence of Wicht, Kyoujin, Glaide, Silver R. Wolfe and Bijoux de Foxxe as administrators on this site is toxic. They need to go immediately.

The fact that none of them has had the decency to resign after 2+ years of nothing worth mentioning, by itself indicates they are not suitable to be on staff, because they cannot or will not recognize that they are damaging the rest of the staff and the wider community of FA by their presence as roadblocks.

Have any of them even tried to justify or explain why they deserve to stay after being inactive so long?

I've certainly seen Kyoujin, Silver R. Wolfe, Glaide and Wicht all show some sign of activity over the past few days on the mainsite (just things like making shouts, +faving things or deleting a shout) and yet they will not communicate with the community they're notionally stewarding. This shows where their priorities lie: skulking behind the scenes, sullenly attempting to cling onto their @ till the end. 

I have nothing against them as people, but in their _role_ they are toxic.

Dragoneer, if you let this drag out, people are going think the worse of your abilities as an admin/leader for it, even if you finally do release them. Do what is right and let them go now.


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## GreenReaper (Feb 8, 2011)

This has been a very painful thread to read through. It's clear there has been a severe breakdown of trust. It's also clear that many of those involved have worked long and hard to maintain FA for the good of the community.

My personal feeling is that any administrator who cannot fulfill their duties should resign. However, keeping internal matters confidential is one of these duties.

You can't have your cake and eat it. If you disagree with the boss, your choice is to suck it up, or to leave. Don't try to publicly hold them to ransom. Make their choice crystal clear _in private_ - either they go, or you do - and be prepared to back it up.

Is there the risk that resigning will harm the site? Sure. But threads like this harm it too - not just because they're a PR nightmare, but because they deepen internal divides and undermine authority.


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## Shireton (Feb 8, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> Statements from both Yak and Dragoneer elsewhere indicate that their  biggest problem with this issue is PR. Their biggest concern is PR. Priorities are all messed up. Responsibility dictates that one resolves the issue first, then worries about PR after.
> 
> Maybe that's not the case, but it has the definite appearance that it is. The only information available supports irresponsible behaviour on their part, like usual. Ironically, quick appropriate action would accomplish positive PR.


 
Their biggest concern is PR? I wouldn't have guessed from how awful it is these days.


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## TakeWalker (Feb 8, 2011)

Shireton said:


> Their biggest concern is PR? I wouldn't have guessed from how awful it is these days.


 
The extreme aversion to all things drama is a part of this. It's becoming clear, avoiding drama, while a noble end, is not a good way to run a site.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Just updating the thread, we were given a policy and a minimum.

Yes, there is a 10 day period.

Personally I still find it unfair that they get this chance, if they really want to make it up to the staff they should be doing double the minimum each week. 
I am curious to see who is going to do their share.


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## Redregon (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Just updating the thread, we were given a policy and a minimum.
> 
> Yes, there is a 10 day period.
> 
> ...


 
in all reality, i'm more hoping that they stick with their duties than being sacked. if this is what's needed to "put the fear" into them and they then are consistent in doing what they're supposed to, i would consider that a better option (since, well, if they are sacked immidiately, that's still leaving more for the rest to do to keep on top of things while their replacements are trained... assuming that there are replacements found to fill their spaces.)

though, i do hope that they're on a sort of "probation" kinda deal. kinda like "one more slip up and you're out" (and it's not just an empty threat.)


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## AshleyAshes (Feb 8, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Just updating the thread, we were given a policy and a minimum.
> 
> Yes, there is a 10 day period.
> 
> ...



It's also worth wondering how many times they can slip and go 'Sorry' without any real reprocutions.


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## Pi (Feb 8, 2011)

AshleyAshes said:


> It's also worth wondering how many times they can slip and go 'Sorry' without any real repercussions.


 
Last I checked, as an organization, the policy has been 'oops sorry' for 6 years and counting.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2011)

Redregon said:


> in all reality, i'm more hoping that they stick with their duties than being sacked. if this is what's needed to "put the fear" into them and they then are consistent in doing what they're supposed to, i would consider that a better option (since, well, if they are sacked immidiately, that's still leaving more for the rest to do to keep on top of things while their replacements are trained... assuming that there are replacements found to fill their spaces.)
> 
> though, i do hope that they're on a sort of "probation" kinda deal. kinda like "one more slip up and you're out" (and it's not just an empty threat.)


 
It's not that I don't mind more help, it's that their inaction for 2 years made it a corrosive effect in morale. That builds resentment because now you have people feeling an unfair balance in the system.


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## Kantress (Feb 8, 2011)

GreenReaper said:


> My personal feeling is that any administrator who cannot fulfill their duties should resign. However, keeping internal matters confidential is one of these duties.
> 
> You can't have your cake and eat it. If you disagree with the boss, your choice is to suck it up, or to leave. Don't try to publicly hold them to ransom.


 
I think perhaps the reason she chose to take this publically was privately nudging him was doing jack shit, and she figured trying a public route rather than quitting would be more beneficial. That being said, I see no real changes made either way. Dragoneer refused to address us commoners on this thread, and his policy is crap and just more forgiveness. 

Actually, that brings me to something you said, Arshes. You said if he didn't apologize by last night (which he kinda did, and, again, was private) and fire inactive staff by today (which he has NOT done) you'd strike. I'm gathering from what you've been saying that the strike's off?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Honest answer:

I'm hesitantly giving the 10 day period over a try. If he does not get rid of inactive staff or we see mediocrity, it's likely discussions for a strike would be done. As I said on my journal I'm willing  to work with him and give him that chance. I was more stern because I don't appreciate staff members being threatened.

In a sense an HR role has been placed on me because I seem to be doing this on behalf of staff. Please note this is not my official role But being the head forum admins means I'm the training manager in a sense since these people become main site admins. I can't do much about appointees that skip the process.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

I don't want this topic zapped in the process because you feel like dumping extra stuff here. It's one of the few that has stayed focused to the topic, so don't start that stuff here please


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## Corto (Feb 9, 2011)

This thread is actually interesting to read, please don't derail it.
EDIT: That includes comments about me deleting the off-topic posts, in case it wasn't obvious.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 9, 2011)

So legitimate question, when are the outstanding tickets going to be answered? 

I have several dating back to as far as December, one in November even. :/

Should I just refile them all so they finally get answered?


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Just updating the thread, we were given a policy and a minimum.
> 
> Yes, there is a 10 day period.
> 
> ...


 
Is there a reason the admin code of conduct is not public? Dragoneer originally gave the impression that it would be, and honestly I'd be a lot more comfortable as a user if I had a way of seeing what expectations the staff was supposed to live up to. Or is this a separate policy from the code of conduct 'Neer promised would be written?


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## Redregon (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> It's not that I don't mind more help, it's that their inaction for 2 years made it a corrosive effect in morale. That builds resentment because now you have people feeling an unfair balance in the system.


 
good point. a toxic workplace isn't fun. still, were i in your shoes i'd not let them forget that they're on thin ice... (assuming that they are on it for their position.)



MandertehPander said:


> So legitimate question, when are the outstanding tickets going to be answered?
> 
> I have several dating back to as far as December, one in November even. :/
> 
> Should I just refile them all so they finally get answered?



agreed... i've been submitting some that haven't been touched for a while... i would bet i don't have the oldest ticket on site though. (makes me wonder if we should have a pool... who has the oldest ticket that's untouched and how long will it stay that way?)


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## Summercat (Feb 9, 2011)

Oldest ticket untouched? This year, IIRC. 

We're eating through our backlog, and if things hold out, half of them will be gone in a week.


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2011)

This is going to be my last post in this thread. So I'm gonna get this all off my chest while I'm in the mood.

Arshes, Witchie, et al.: I give you credit and support for coming forward when you felt threatened by Dragoneer and saying "We will not be treated like this." I support your decision to hold Dragoneer accountable for his actions instead of just letting him get away with treating you like garbage, and I also support your decision to formulate an administrative strike should circumstances push you towards that action. The admins who do their jobs deserve to keep them, and said admins don't deserve to be treated like trash just because you speak up when you take issue with something other admins or Dragoneer have done. Keep up the good work keeping this site going.

Yak: PR is not FA's biggest problem. A hugely-flawed code base, a less-than-transparent administration, and an overall atmosphere of "sorry, we'll do it later" are FA's biggest problems. If you can't understand that, then maybe you should just stay the hell out of the discussion until you can.

Dragoneer, I saved you for last. You don't deserve all of the blame for things that are going wrong with FurAffinity - after all, you inherited bad code, bad admins, and a host of other problems from Jheryn when you took over. But now? FurAffinity is _your_ responsibility. You own the site, you run the site, and in the end, the success or failure of the site falls upon you to handle. Silencing criticism, threatening admins, and trying to keep every last little problem hidden away under a veil of secrecy is not helping you turn the site into a success. Keeping around a group of administrators who have not regularly worked to help resolve issues on the site in months - or, in some cases, _years_ - is not helping those administrators who _are_ working to keep the site going as smoothly as possible.

You need to quit worrying about hurting feelings and looking bad, because you're never going to have a 100% approval rating no matter how hard you try; when it comes to running FurAffinity *you need to act in the best interests of your site.* If firing a lazy admin is in the best interests of FurAffinity, _fire them_ even if they're a friend. If a coder refuses to work on the code of the site and make the site run better, _fire them_ even if they're your family. If something fucks up with the site, _let the userbase know as clearly and openly as possible_ even if it's embarassing to you and the admins/coders. If someone criticizes you for something you've done (regardless of whether or not you deserve it), _don't try to bully them into silence_ when you know such a move will just cause more drama.

Everyone makes mistakes, Dragoneer. I've made a shitton of them in my nearly 30 years of life - for God's sake, I'm posting here, aren't I? - but I've done my best to own up to them and admit when I've fucked up. It's time for you to start doing the same. You need to admit publicly and openly to the entire FA userbase that you fucked up in this situation, you need to publicly and openly address the moderation staff and _actually_ say "I'm sorry" for the threat, and you need to start trying to kill off the site's dead weight in regards to administrators and coders.

There are plenty of people who use this site that would be willing to help you make this site a better place - _for free,_ in many instances. If you would just accept their help instead of acting like they're trying to stab you in the back and usurp your throne simply because they don't kiss your ass and agree with every little thing you do, this site could probably be many times better in just a few months.

You're the owner and head administrator, Dragoneer. You have responsibilities not just to the site, but to its userbase. Start living up to them.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

quoting_mungo said:


> Is there a reason the admin code of conduct is not public? Dragoneer originally gave the impression that it would be, and honestly I'd be a lot more comfortable as a user if I had a way of seeing what expectations the staff was supposed to live up to. Or is this a separate policy from the code of conduct 'Neer promised would be written?


 
There is a general code of common sense. Basically don't be rude to users, as they are our "guests" and more importantly contributors to our site. Some of it addresses how to use our software and how it comes to actions, and that doesn't need to be public. 

I don't think there needs to be a verbatim word or posting of that because one of the problems with the community is that far too often if something is written we get arguments like ...

taking one sentence or phrase out of context and endlessly add tons of textwang and argue about it for posts and posts. 

I'm also not sure if the policy was supposed to be public because the wording was funny iirc on that conversation on LJ. It's just that I think the policy is more importantly known amongst staff first rather than open for public scrutiny and niggling for whatever drama or agenda of the day. However, it should be spoken amongst staff if they see the other staff members engage in improper behavior and hold them accountable at least that keeps it cleaner and makes it more internal. 

But if we got idle admins weighing in .... and have it's pretty irritating. 

For me on other matters, I'm going to continue supporting and helping these forum staff members grow to their potential.

In case people were wondering. We basically have auditions, we had it done every quarter when there was need. Reasons they don't happen every three months is if we have too many forum staff and not enough pulling of those members into the main site. In those 3 months I usually accept around 3 users (sometimes more) to become forum mods. After about 3 months I *evaluate* whether or not those can become Smods and in turn if  Smods should be promoted for the site. I think this is key because people were trying to make it sound like I just automatically have these things in place. Not always will apps be open at those times, and not always people get promoted every three months. This is because sometimes, you need to work with someone to become better or realize that some of these people have reached their highest point. Not everyone is cut out to be a site administrator.

This system tends to work better than plucking admins just straight out of being a board mod because you just wanted them to be on the main site.

While mistakes may happen, the biggest issue is communication among mods. The forum mods have developed better communication amongst their staff members than ones that were cherry picked or plucked.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> So legitimate question, when are the outstanding tickets going to be answered?
> 
> I have several dating back to as far as December, one in November even. :/
> 
> Should I just refile them all so they finally get answered?


 Double check your tickets, as if it a submission issue, it may have been dealt with by someone else submitting it too, if it a site issue that no longer a problem its probably best to close it.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> There is a general code of common sense.  Basically don't be rude to users, as they are our "guests" and more  importantly contributors to our site. Some of it addresses how to use  our software and how it comes to actions, and that doesn't need to be  public.
> 
> I don't think there needs to be a verbatim word or  posting of that because one of the problems with the community is that  far too often if something is written we get arguments like ...
> 
> ...


 
I feel that 'something' public would be more than valuable. Video game  patch notes style, maybe? Everything with even the slightest bit  relevance to users explained, and all the rest given the  vague-but-clear-enough-because-it's-less-relevant _"Clarified issues  regarding -software- use."_

The thing is, if something exists someone will bitch about it. It's not  an excuse to not do anything, because it is always the case everywhere.  And besides that, furries do secrecy like crap... it has always lead to  hindrances and dramastorms. It ought to be dropped altogether,  considering it has no history of success.

I would also like to note that FA is a community hub, with volunteer  staff. It is run on donations, and is just an empty husk of bad code  without user submissions. Why are the user base not let in on staff  decisions when they are contributing just as well? Of course  (some)admins do a lot more work, but that's beside the point. If FA was a  theatre, the users would not be the audience, they would be the actors.


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 9, 2011)

Heimdal said:


> I feel that 'something' public would be more than valuable. Video game patch notes style, maybe? Everything with even the slightest bit relevance to users explained, and all the rest given the vague-but-clear-enough-because-it's-less-relevant _"Clarified issues regarding -software- use."_



This is mostly what I was getting at, yes. For instance, something I would expect to be present in a code of conduct is "this is how we handle bans" ("up to the discretion of each admin" or "discuss amongst ourselves until at least three people agree" or "ask an ouija board" or whatever), and that is something I do feel users have a right to know at least the basic mechanics of. Same if there's a policy on who handles, say, re-opened tickets, or what to do if submission X is reported for Y violation when in actuality it blatantly violates rule Z but not Y. (Does the user file a new ticket? Reopen the closed ticket? Or did the admin commit an error for closing it citing non-violation of Y in the first place?)

Of course it's more important that the staff have a good grasp of it first, but that doesn't mean the userbase shouldn't get to see the rules that directly influence their interactions with the administration. Also keep in mind that much of the tendency for complaints have been "you say you're doing things but I see none of it".

Now, this obviously doesn't have to be in the form of a public posting of the policy, if that for whatever reason is inappropriate. But giving users a document saying essentially "this is how you can expect admins to treat you" would not be a bad thing. (I know, for instance, I've seen bad blood result from users expecting the admins to notify them before submissions were deleted, and I've _also_ seen people insulted at admins asking them to take their own submissions down. If it's publically stated that admins will act in X manner in cases of Y types of violation, people won't have mismatched expectations which in the long run should result in less, not more, drama.)


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

If everything online was a democracy including this site nothing gets done. So while I agree it's not necessarily bad to see policies posted in places, people have to understand at a certain point it's not for them to try to nitpick lulz it but at least have a mature enough mind to discuss it and know when something is just going to be an "agree to disagree" I know the nature of the net kinda prevents that. It's like watching youtube for comments, it gets crazy.

Anyways, I'm not in charge overall and I don't even think I'm qualified to find the solution to help users and staff communicate without making it a damn lulz fest everytime ...cuz furries :/


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

AshleyAshes said:


> It's also worth wondering how many times they can slip and go 'Sorry' without any real reprocutions.


 
Well there has been a repercussion from all this actually.


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## Eevee (Feb 9, 2011)

TakeWalker said:


> The extreme aversion to all things drama is a part of this. It's becoming clear, avoiding drama, while a noble end, is not a good way to run a site.


The very word "drama" is a poison to this entire subculture.  Nothing can ever move forward, because attempting to do so will result in "drama".  Nobody can discuss anything seriously, because attempting to do so will result in "drama".  Nobody can take responsibility or hold anyone else accountable, because that's "drama".

It's a scapegoat, a bogeyman, a red menace, the monster under your bed that will eat you if you don't do your homework.  Except ours eats you if you _do_ do your homework, and so the community remains paralyzed and stagnant, terrified of the possibility of natural human discourse that we've come to know and fear as "drama".

Knock it the fuck off.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2011)

Eevee said:


> The very word "drama" is a poison to this entire subculture.  Nothing can ever move forward, because attempting to do so will result in "drama".  Nobody can discuss anything seriously, because attempting to do so will result in "drama".  Nobody can take responsibility or hold anyone else accountable, because that's "drama."


 
I totally agree. And to take it further, furries have lost all concept of what drama actually is. Objective evaluations of things are in no way drama, even when the critic throws in something subjective like "and this is retarded" it's closer to drama, but you gotta look at the primary points. Drama is literally when people start throwing around theatrics. The irony of this whole fear of drama is that *it is drama!*


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## Bobskunk (Feb 9, 2011)

Eevee said:


> The very word "drama" is a poison to this entire subculture.  Nothing can ever move forward, because attempting to do so will result in "drama".  Nobody can discuss anything seriously, because attempting to do so will result in "drama".  Nobody can take responsibility or hold anyone else accountable, because that's "drama".
> 
> It's a scapegoat, a bogeyman, a red menace, the monster under your bed that will eat you if you don't do your homework.  Except ours eats you if you _do_ do your homework, and so the community remains paralyzed and stagnant, terrified of the possibility of natural human discourse that we've come to know and fear as "drama".
> 
> Knock it the fuck off.



Everything Eevee has just said is correct and this has been my position ever since I noticed the trend of people crying about "drama" and leaving problems to fester, forever unconfronted, when a few minutes of conflict resolution would work wonders.  Of course, this attitude always leads up to an explosion from at least one of the parties involved, and then the unhealthy view is reinforced by considering this to be the norm.  It's fucking retarded.

When your efforts to "avoid drama" end up consuming most of your time and effort and result in more or less complete inaction, you really have to reevaluate your priorities and direction.  If this keeps up, you not only keep problems unsolved, but the resulting catastrophes are even greater and more expensive.  Either do it right the first time or fix it as soon as you can.  There _might_ be an argument of money/skill constraints for fixing the technical problems of the main site, but "drama" is in no way a valid reason not to address inherent problems in the culture/structure of FA's staff or other various social/human issues.

Don't wimp out on the important things or simply create distractions.  Nothing good lies down that path, and the longer you wait to turn away, the harder it gets to break away.  It's never too late.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Looking at the tickets, seems some idle admins are still...idle...

just counting those days....

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa...-Site-Admins?p=2359812&viewfull=1#post2359812

I'm certainly not going to miss you when you get the boot. You aren't even doing the right thing by stepping down.... and that better be a "When".


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> just counting those days....



I don't know why you're bothering. They had years to get their act together; an extra few days isn't going to change things. Those admins might make a mad dash at showing marginal improvement when the deadline nears, but after it passes, they'll fall back into the same apathetic position they were in before, content that their position is safe for another two or three years.

Get Dragoneer to dump the worthless admins now. They're not worth waiting for.

EDIT: Yes, I realize I posted again after I said I wouldn't. See? I made a mistake, and now I'm admitting it. Let's see Dragoneer do the same thing.


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## Aden (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Looking at the tickets, seems some idle admins are still...idle...
> 
> just counting those days....


 
Day nine: they all leap into action and take care of 25 TTs each, then go back into slumber
forums explode with rage
fender's head on a pole
etc.


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 9, 2011)

Freehaven said:


> Get Dragoneer to dump the worthless admins now. They're not worth waiting for.


 That's easier said than done...


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## Browder (Feb 9, 2011)

Aden said:


> Day nine: they all leap into action and take care of 25 TTs each, then go back into slumber
> forums explode with rage
> fender's head on a pole
> etc.


 Is it bad that I laughed at that? Probably because it hits a little close to home.

And at this point there's no use worrying. If one thing doesn't happen the other will. Simple as that. FA may be understaffed but it took action.


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## Ricky (Feb 9, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> That's easier said than done...


 
I don't see why...  It's all a matter of handling the admin crap.

Sometimes you gotta tell someone to GTFO.  Not a job I would want to do, but that's what it entails.

I have a feeling a lot of the trouble is because a lot of people here are friends.  People tend to take things like this personally and that makes it hard to do.

I may be way off on that one, but I doubt it.


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## nrr (Feb 9, 2011)

Ricky said:


> I have a feeling a lot of the trouble is because a lot of people here are friends.  People tend to take things like this personally and that makes it hard to do.


 
I don't think you're that far off.


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## Redregon (Feb 9, 2011)

Ricky said:


> I don't see why...  It's all a matter of handling the admin crap.
> 
> Sometimes you gotta tell someone to GTFO.  Not a job I would want to do, but that's what it entails.
> 
> ...


 
naw, i think you're pretty much right on the money... people tend to forget the number one rule of being a site admin: if you're expecting to make friends because of the position, you're doing your job wrong. not to mention the people that would be "you're my friend" because you're an admin isn't "being friendly" it's "sucking up." (and really, if you have to surround yourself with people that will be willing to suck up to you because of your rank or whatever, you really should be going to a therapist instead of an art site.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Meanwhile watch people who do 800-900 tickets in 3 months burnout and get fed up...oh wait...

I mean the fact that really no repercussions for the inactivity have happened. There were, but it's the opposite of what was supposed to be accomplished.

10 day extension then gone is not any kind of discipline towards those that became lax in the first place.

As I said, extremely hesitant. But this is what happens when certain choices were made.


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## Diocletian (Feb 9, 2011)

So I see Witchiebunny has resigned as an admin, according to her journal on FA.

Active admins are leaving while lazy ones are staying.


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## Armaetus (Feb 9, 2011)

The BFF nonsense and letting emotions between Dragoneer and the inactive mods must not be allowed to get in the way of inaction of the worthless staff being let go...it's simply not fair for those who do it out of obligation of the site and not letting friendship emotions get in the way.

Dump them, _now_.


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## Kantress (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Honest answer:
> 
> I'm hesitantly giving the 10 day period over a try. If he does not get rid of inactive staff or we see mediocrity, it's likely discussions for a strike would be done. As I said on my journal I'm willing  to work with him and give him that chance. I was more stern because I don't appreciate staff members being threatened.
> 
> In a sense an HR role has been placed on me because I seem to be doing this on behalf of staff. Please note this is not my official role But being the head forum admins means I'm the training manager in a sense since these people become main site admins. I can't do much about appointees that skip the process.


 
So, you admit that you as well overreacted, and you apologize for making the threat to strike if inactive admins were not fired by yesterday?



> I'm also not sure if the policy was supposed to be public because the  wording was funny iirc on that conversation on LJ. It's just that I  think the policy is more importantly known amongst staff first rather  than open for public scrutiny and niggling for whatever drama or agenda  of the day. However, it should be spoken amongst staff if they see the  other staff members engage in improper behavior and hold them  accountable at least that keeps it cleaner and makes it more internal.



So, you don't have a problem if the code of conduct is secret? We're not supposed to know how the staff are supposed to behave? You're just adding to the problem. Haven't you learned one of the lessons of this thread's responses: less secrecy? This would be a really stupid thing to do, keep the code of conduct secret.


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## Ben (Feb 9, 2011)

Really, if they were good friends, they would realize that it's for the good of the community and the staff that they either shape up or flat out leave. I honestly don't understand why Dragoneer would be so attached to people so desperate to cling to their status on a furry art site without deserving it.


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## Ricky (Feb 9, 2011)

Ben said:


> Really, if they were good friends, they would realize that it's for the good of the community and the staff that they either shape up or flat out leave.


 
You'd think that's the case from any practical sense but a lot of people don't look at it that way.

I know from running sites in the past a lot of people take pride in being called a mod or admin.  A LOT of people ask to become one for some reason (maybe the title?) and then take it personally if you ask them to step down because they aren't doing anything.

If someone wants to become a mod or an admin though, they shouldn't look at it as a "badge" or position of authority but rather a commitment to volunteer X amount of their time.  If they don't want to do that work they shouldn't ask for it.

People don't always think from a practical sense; that's why you need people to handle all the admin crap.  I'm *not* saying it's easy, especially when people take stuff personally, but that's just what has to get done.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> So I see Witchiebunny has resigned as an admin, according to her journal on FA.
> 
> Active admins are leaving while lazy ones are staying.


 
She's going to work with me on the forums. 

I'll try to get things done on forum end so long as people ask before installing things...


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Kantress said:


> So, you admit that you as well overreacted, and you apologize for making the threat to strike if inactive admins were not fired by yesterday?



No, I didn't overreact. 




> So, you don't have a problem if the code of conduct is secret? We're not supposed to know how the staff are supposed to behave? You're just adding to the problem. Haven't you learned one of the lessons of this thread's responses: less secrecy? This would be a really stupid thing to do, keep the code of conduct secret.


 
Read other posts before making quote wars. It's one of the things that becomes really obnoxious and tiresome.


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## Kantress (Feb 9, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> That's easier said than done...



No, wrong. It's quite easy. "So-and-so, you are de-admined.  Goodbye." is what he needs to say to each of the staff being fired. Then he needs to use his super-admin Control Panel and do it.  Or, he could do it before and send the message afterwards. Anyway, what does that take, 2 minutes of CP  usage and maybe 5-10 to note or e-mail the inactive admins? That's very  easy. 




Arshes Nei said:


> She's going to work with me on the forums.
> 
> I'll try to get things done on forum end so long as people ask before installing things...



I thought the forums were fine because of your leadership and competent staff, and the real problem was the main site.



Arshes Nei said:


> No, I didn't overreact.
> 
> Read other posts before making quote wars. It's one of the things that becomes really obnoxious and tiresome.



Well, you're not doing it, so either you overreacted in anger or you say things you don't intend on following through on. Also, my apologies. I should have read the entire thread first. I made an irresponsible decision to make replies before I read the rest of the unread posts.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Really? We need the nitpick game so we can start looking like we're bickering amongst each other?

I mean really, that's what you want?

For the record, neither me or my forum staff banned Pi. However, I would like to also state no further discussions on bans should be posted here. (To prevent derailment).


----------



## Redregon (Feb 9, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Really? We need the nitpick game so we can start looking like we're bickering amongst each other?
> 
> I mean really, that's what you want?
> 
> For the record, neither me or my forum staff banned Pi. However, I would like to also state no further discussions on bans should be posted here. (To prevent derailment).


 
well, there are some people that thrive on drama afterall... kinda sad, really... if that's all they have going for them, that's pretty sad. 

though i wonder if this thread has served it's purpose. the issue is being dealt with and aside from an update after the 10-day grace period (which is do-able with it's own thread) it's not like keeping this thread up is doing much other than giving those that strive to stir shit up a venue to, well, try and stir shit up.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Redregon said:


> though i wonder if this thread has served it's purpose. the issue is being dealt with and aside from an update after the 10-day grace period (which is do-able with it's own thread) it's not like keeping this thread up is doing much other than giving those that strive to stir shit up a venue to, well, try and stir shit up.



Fair enough but this thread makes a nice reminder every day of those 10 days that we're watching and fed up.


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## Xenke (Feb 9, 2011)

So, I have a question, about how many TTs come in every 10 day period?

Also, if every admin does the minimum amount of TTs every 10 days, what percentage of the average amount of TTs will be resolved?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2011)

Good question. I'll have to start monitoring that and see that compared to the minimum.


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## Armaetus (Feb 10, 2011)

I bet they'll spring to life for a few days and then go back to their usual incompetence.


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 10, 2011)

Just to elaborate on my "Easier said than done", for those that disagree:
If it were that easy to get 'neer to de-admin the inactive ones, would we be having this conversation?
Would this thread even exist, then? I think not.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2011)

Just for those in for the play by play 

The tickets are being whittled down and seeing more activity from the admins, but I'll say it's mostly by admins that weren't the problem.


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## Armaetus (Feb 10, 2011)

Keep us informed on this situation Arshes, many of us are eager to see what happens at the end of the tunnel (day ten).


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## Ben (Feb 10, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> Just to elaborate on my "Easier said than done", for those that disagree:
> If it were that easy to get 'neer to de-admin the inactive ones, would we be having this conversation?
> Would this thread even exist, then? I think not.


 
It is easy though-- Just not for him, apparently.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2011)

Today's update.

Idle admin complains on the chat that he/she will be very busy and doesn't have time to answer tickets.
(we are all busy!)

Idle admin complains about not wanting to answer tickets. (Wants to use notes, which lack admin transparency) 
We have new admins that have answered over 700 tickets since brought on.

Idle admin doesn't know what the rules are anymore.

Am I the only one that has a problem with this?


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## Xenke (Feb 11, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Today's update.
> 
> Idle admin complains on the chat that he/she will be very busy and doesn't have time to answer tickets.
> (we are all busy!)


 
That's the kind of excuse I make up to get out of school things.

I MEAN, no I don't.


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## Browder (Feb 11, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Idle admin doesn't know what the rules are anymore.


 Well at least this one is honest. /:


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2011)

Browder said:


> Well at least this one is honest. /:


 
That's why there is the IRC to help clarify. But this admin chose to be mostly idle and not get clarification or read up on events.

This goes back to Dave's post keeping inactive admins on this long shows how out of touch they are with current policy.

Not only that, the behavior and excuses of this admin has made a corrosive effect. We were spending time arguing with that person and not working together to get things done.

Last time I had someone cause problems like that I removed them.


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## LizardKing (Feb 11, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Idle admin complains on the chat that he/she will be very busy and doesn't have time to answer tickets.
> (we are all busy!)
> 
> Idle admin complains about not wanting to answer tickets. (Wants to use notes, which lack admin transparency)
> ...


 
So they don't have time to do their job, don't want to do their job correctly, and don't know even know _how_ to do their job.

A real credit to the team there


----------



## Witchiebunny (Feb 11, 2011)

You know, as a newer admin, I should NOT have been more up on the rules than some of the most senior admins that had been there for YEARS. I would go into admin chat and ask for advice, and NONE of the idle admins would know anything about the situation, or even HOW to resolve it. That's terrible, and a blow to the morale of new admins. The vetted admins are supposed to be rocks for the newer admins and the community to stand on, not quicksand for them to drown in.


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## Heimdal (Feb 11, 2011)

Train wreck!

It's terribly amusing, but I really empathize with you guys. Their excuses are _reasons they should be fired!_ Even if they do the minimum they should be cut; they are unsuitable for the job.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2011)

Too busy to do tickets, then de-admin yourself until you can do the tickets/work

Dont want to answer tickets but use notes, well you can use both, AFTER you answer the ticket as often time they will note you back on why they got in trouble

Dont know the rules, sorry that enough there show you really were just sitting in that seat pretty


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## Freehaven (Feb 11, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Today's update.
> 
> Idle admin complains on the chat that he/she will be very busy and doesn't have time to answer tickets.
> (we are all busy!)
> ...



I would take issue with this, too. You have my support in whatever you do - and at this point, I wouldn't blame you or the other working admins one bit if you took a cue from Egypt and started treating 'Neer like Mubarak.


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## Armaetus (Feb 11, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Today's update.
> 
> Idle admin complains on the chat that he/she will be very busy and doesn't have time to answer tickets.
> (we are all busy!)
> ...


 
You're not the only one, said idle admins should be removed if they're not gonna help. If they're gonna squander on their power they should give it to someone who ACTUALLY will make good use of it, not fucking sit on it as a boasting status symbol!


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## Xenke (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, so, I had more thoughts on this subject.

While the ideal solution to the TT issue is to have the inactive admins actually work on the TTs, it's becoming more and more apparent that that's not very likely.

So, what happens after that? Well, hopefully the admins that aren't pulling their weight get let go. Admins that aren't performing their duties are, quite frankly, security risks. It's all of the possibility of their accounts getting compromised, made worse by the fact that they don't keep in touch with the rest of the staff on things like "time to change our passwords" and such, without the benefits of resolving issues.

So, lets say that they're put out on the curb. Well, then that doesn't quite solve the problem, because then the staff is shorthanded.

So, realistically, it's a problem of getting useless admins out of the system, and pulling new ones in. Because the site needs enough admins that work hard enough to resolve TTs so that _all_ of the staff can do their duties without a ridiculous backlog.

Honestly... I don't see either side of the issue being resolved, at least any time soon.

/ramble


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2011)

Letting them go doesn't make us shorthanded. It makes us work more. We can bring on more when ready, but having them around makes people more frustrated, and less productive.

The reason I'm focused on this issue is not because I'm ignoring all the other issues, but at least trying to tackle and center on one and keep going on to fix the others after that. Trying to fix everything at once isn't working so much. 

Rather than screaming about XYZ and tacking on 123....

I'm saying "here's X issue solve this first. We can start working on Y next".


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## Armaetus (Feb 11, 2011)

This forces Dragoneer to bring forward new admins THAT ARE NOT HIS FRIENDS and would ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE to the site administration section such as TTs and enforcing the site rules, not these current idle kissups such as Wicht and co.


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## Kantress (Feb 11, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Really? We need the nitpick game so we can start looking like we're bickering amongst each other?
> 
> I mean really, that's what you want?



No, I was not trying to start internal bickering, though, obviously, that's already happened. I was merely trying to hold you to the same standard you held Dragoneer to with regards to the threat he made. He may well have not actually been planning to retaliate, but he erupted under stress. I was trying to see if you were mature enough to admit you committed a similar error, but you instead made your response an attack on me. So, I'm rather disappointed in both you and Dragoneer. Don't get me wrong: I think trying to get rid of useless staff is a great idea, but when two senior admins do the same thing and neither are eager to apologize or admit wrongdoing (Dragoneer did, but I think he was forced by staff reaction and I question its sincerity), it just makes me question and doubt everyone.

Anyway, please don't ban me for this. I'm really just being truthful with you without being an complete asshole (well, in my opinion, anyway; I'm sure there are others who think I've been one). Besides, I've said all I really can say on this thread without repeating myself, so I'll shut up now. I'm looking forward to how the next 10 days, and few months after that, will play out. 



CerbrusNL said:


> Just to elaborate on my "Easier said than done", for those that disagree:
> If it were that easy to get 'neer to de-admin the inactive ones, would we be having this conversation?
> Would this thread even exist, then? I think not.



Oh, I see what you meant now. I apologize for my misinterpretation and my subsequent retort, Cerbrus.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2011)

Kantress, I'll just agree to disagree then.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi Dave,

Since you're no longer on staff and tend to speak freely, can you tell me your side of the story on admin WichT?

Thanks


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 11, 2011)

Would a petition from us members of FA and FAF imploring the removal of admins that are not as active or not active at all given the 10 day grace period be of any effect? I feel like it is a dumb idea but maybe if a bunch of us spoke up from the fandom to back you guys it might get done quicker or more efficient.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 12, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Would a petition from us members of FA and FAF imploring the removal of admins that are not as active or not active at all given the 10 day grace period be of any effect? I feel like it is a dumb idea but maybe if a bunch of us spoke up from the fandom to back you guys it might get done quicker or more efficient.


 since when ONLINE petitions did anything?


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 12, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> since when ONLINE petitions did anything?


 
Worked with my local animal shelter to change from the gas to lethal injection. Yes they do work.


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## CR-V (Feb 12, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Worked with my local animal shelter to change from the gas to lethal injection. Yes they do work.



Animal shelter is one thing. Furry fandom is something else.



Arshes Nei said:


> Today's update.
> 
> Idle admin complains on the chat that he/she will be very busy and doesn't have time to answer tickets.
> (we are all busy!)
> ...


 
No you're not.
Giving these guys 10 more days to shape up was a terrible idea. I was expecting them to increase their activity-even just a bit-but fuck, the fact they DON'T want to do their job or DON'T KNOW how to do it just caught me off guard.


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## Summercat (Feb 12, 2011)

CR-V said:


> Animal shelter is one thing. Furry fandom is something else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Speaking in defense of SOME of the admins in question...

Some of the admins in question are stepping up and doing some work. I can't speak as to how much additional work it is, but usually there's a whole raft of trouble tickets from earlier in the day waiting for me when I start my shift at work. 

Today, when I started doing tickets, we already blasted through all but the ones that take sometime to resolve. I don't know if this was just a lower amount of tickets today, or showing that we are getting some extra assistance.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I am seeing some more activity from some of the admins named. Not going to defend the admin in question that Arshes was complaining about, though.


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## Armaetus (Feb 12, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Speaking in defense of SOME of the admins in question...
> 
> Some of the admins in question are stepping up and doing some work. I can't speak as to how much additional work it is, but usually there's a whole raft of trouble tickets from earlier in the day waiting for me when I start my shift at work.
> 
> ...


 
Why am I not surprised they are, probably only to save their sorry excuse for an admin...which is my guess. Likely go back to being idle after a set time.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 12, 2011)

Summercat, I respect how you don't want to be more aggressive over this issue. I have seen some of the inactive ones pop up and start working again. 

However, you're answering as a newer member to the team over 700 tickets in 3 months. Admins that have been on the team for years only need to do a bare minimum each week. This is backwards. Those administrators should be doing the amounts in 100's because they have been on the site so long and are supposed to be seasoned. The newer admins should have a bare minimum to keep up because these admins need to learn. Having newer administrators take the burden of those TTs leads to more mistakes and exposure and stress.

However, that's not what was happening for years. This attempt to appease everyone, hasn't.

I'd still like to see if Dave would answer my question.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Feb 12, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Why am I not surprised they are, probably only to save their sorry excuse for an admin...which is my guess. Likely go back to being idle after a set time.


To play Devil's Advocate, Arshes did note that one major reason she takes issue with these people slacking off is that it's demoralizing to the other admins. So it's quite possible that all or some of the people who _have_ stepped up have on some level (not exactly consciously, but not exactly not) felt it wasn't a big deal if they didn't do the tickets - after all there were X other people ALSO not doing tickets, so how bad can it be?

You know, sort of the same reasoning a lot of users seem to subscribe to when they complain that their Photobucket images were removed because "lots of other artists have that kind of submissions too!"


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## Diocletian (Feb 13, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> can you tell me your side of the story on admin WichT?


 
My experience with him,

In 2008 the lazy staff were being lazy. I was pushing for something to be done about them, preferably letting them go and replacing them but eventually I settled for the promise that they'd be given a quota and let go if they couldn't make it. In the even, nothing came of this promise.

One day on the staff IRC channel, Wicht PM'ed me and proceeded to curse and swear at me and make vague allusions about other members of staff not being happy with me, claiming  he spoke for other members of staff who he did not identify. He claimed that the reason the lazy admins were so lazy was because they were frightened of me(!) and afraid to do any work. 

All in all it was a vicious and nasty thing to do and I think it perfectly illustrates how lazy staff damage morale and hamper teamwork.


----------



## Redregon (Feb 13, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> My experience with him,
> 
> In 2008 the lazy staff were being lazy. I was pushing for something to be done about them, preferably letting them go and replacing them but eventually I settled for the promise that they'd be given a quota and let go if they couldn't make it. In the even, nothing came of this promise.
> 
> ...


 
So, i guess the tl:dr of it all is: lazy admin throws tantrum when asked to do job... threatens a user and shitposts like a bloody child... am i getting this correct? because if i am, how in the high hell of all fuckity fucks did s/he get the job in the first place if that's the way they behave?  

f**king shameful.


----------



## Armaetus (Feb 13, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> My experience with him,
> 
> In 2008 the lazy staff were being lazy. I was pushing for something to be done about them, preferably letting them go and replacing them but eventually I settled for the promise that they'd be given a quota and let go if they couldn't make it. In the even, nothing came of this promise.
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely unacceptable and childish by Wicht/Deroco. He's a prime candidate to be released immediately.


----------



## Aden (Feb 13, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Absolutely unacceptable and childish by Wicht/Deroco. He's a prime candidate to be released immediately.


 
I hadn't even heard of this person before that post :T


----------



## Armaetus (Feb 14, 2011)

Aden said:


> I hadn't even heard of this person before that post :T


 
Oh, he's on the so-called "Admin" list that doesn't do shit around here. He's just as lazy as seen by his postings on Furnet IRC, even real life to a fair extent.

EDIT: So how long has it been now, 5 days? So it's 5 days and counting before we see what happens the lazy shmucks sitting on the staff list doing jack shit to help.

Also if I see newly appointed staff that are replacing the old lazy ones that do the same, FA will truly lose my support. The only reason I still use it because it's my primary upload and communication page, not to mention I will never donate to this site again given how bad Dragoneer has dealt with the situation.


----------



## nrr (Feb 14, 2011)

Glaice said:


> EDIT: So how long has it been now, 5 days? So it's 5 days and counting before we see what happens the lazy shmucks sitting on the staff list doing jack shit to help.


 
You'd have to ask Arshes to make sure, but I don't think that's entirely accurate.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 14, 2011)

nrr said:


> You'd have to ask Arshes to make sure, but I don't think that's entirely accurate.



Replying from my phone so don't expect much activity from me.  The mail sent to staff was the 10th or 11th. However, not everyone received the ne policy because the emails he sent them to were not checked to be active or current.  When forum emails were wiped after the hack. I told staff to give me a current address because I needed current contacts. I do not believe for site admins the same wwas done becaause I took it upon myself to forward the TT policy to staff who asked because they didn't receive a copy


----------



## Accountability (Feb 14, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Replying from my phone so don't expect much activity from me.  The mail sent to staff was the 10th or 11th. However, not everyone received the ne policy because the emails he sent them to were not checked to be active or current.  When forum emails were wiped after the hack. I told staff to give me a current address because I needed current contacts. I do not believe for site admins the same wwas done becaause I took it upon myself to forward the TT policy to staff who asked because they didn't receive a copy


 
Whatever happened to


			
				Yak said:
			
		

> Every admin will probably have an  @fa.net email address in the end...



http://mail.furaffinity.net/

All staff should have an email address here.
All staff should check it regularly.
If they don't check it and they don't get the memo about needing to be active, then maybe they deserve getting kicked off staff.


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## Armaetus (Feb 16, 2011)

Day 7 I believe...maybe I believe this will be dealt with on the planned downtime on the 19th as that will be day 10? I will be checking out these forums AND taking a look at the admin list when the main site is back up.

Also, why is Witchie STILL on the staff list on the main page? Isn't that only for main site and not forums? Or we have not taken the 5 minutes to modify the page to remove her?


----------



## Ben (Feb 16, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Day 7 I believe...maybe I believe this will be dealt with on the planned downtime on the 19th as that will be day 10? I will be checking out these forums AND taking a look at the admin list when the main site is back up.
> 
> Also, why is Witchie STILL on the staff list on the main page? Isn't that only for main site and not forums? Or we have not taken the 5 minutes to modify the page to remove her?


 
For weeks at a time for the last 3 months now, the staff page has listed people who aren't admins, whether it be Damaratus, Dior, Witchie, Pinkuh, Irreverent, Ahkhana or Chase (yes, there's been seven resignations in just three months) . Every time they finally get around to fixing it, a new person (or persons) resigns, and it takes them another few weeks to correct it. It's pretty absurd.


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## Volkodav (Feb 16, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Yak said:
> 
> 
> 
> > Every admin will probably have an @fa.net email address in the end...


 Uhhh why don't they already?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 16, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Uhhh why don't they already?


 
The same reason that the staff page is pretty neglected. We were given the emails (those who asked) but poor follow up. You should be giving some documentation to your staff on its usage.


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## Drakkar (Feb 16, 2011)

my opinion is:

do what is best for the site, you, the admins who do work give the best of you, speak your mind even if neer doesn't likes it, if he threatens you then don't care about the threatening, if he gets you off your post as an admin or even banned then let him do so, let him hire a new admin group and repeat this mess over again, he will eventually have to realize his mistakes

you need to make dragoneer realize he is not as powerful as he thinks he is, and a good method is by just giving all what you got not caring if he demotes/bans you

if you really care for dragoneer that's the best thing you can do for him and the site, because if you just go and do whatever he says (like not talking about important issues) he sees his "powerfulness" works and keeps applying it, which makes his ego grow to descomunal values

right now, demote ANY admin who has not been working, if neer doesn't likes it then don't pay a mind to it, you are just doing your work and your part for a better site


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 16, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Whatever happened to
> 
> 
> http://mail.furaffinity.net/
> ...


 
I suppose an equally good question is....why do I still have access to my @furaffinity.net e-mail account?


----------



## nrr (Feb 17, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> I suppose an equally good question is....why do I still have access to my @furaffinity.net e-mail account?


 
You're still staff on the forums, no?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 17, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> I suppose an equally good question is....why do I still have access to my @furaffinity.net e-mail account?


 
Personally, I don't see the problem, since you're a forum administrator. If you have to reply to people outside the forum, your mail is useful. Being able to email staff on both sides makes it easier to communicate overall.

On another note, ones thing that's a bit troubling is that the staff chat is being used more and more as the personal hugbox. While I don't want to go so far as saying nothing personal should go there. It's when, you start up tiffs amongst staff members because "You're having a bad day". Since we constantly encourage taking breaks and that your life comes fist, maybe there should be consequences for  (not maybe, but SHOULD) who ignore taking breaks and make bad decisions, only to blame it on something personal going on with his/her life. It is unfair for other staff members. "Sorry I called you an asshole the other day, I was drunk" "Sorry I locked a thread against my better judgment, my dog died". You can simply leave a post saying you're going to be offline for a bit, and have personal matters to take care of. If you're ignoring personal matters that need taking care of over a forum, that also shows bad judgment and lack of real priorities. Why would someone want you on staff?


It's also better to de-admin yourself if you're a site admin, leave a note on the forum and I'll readmin when when you're back and ready. There's no shame in taking breaks. You shouldn't be putting a website you volunteer for ahead of your personal life.


----------



## Pinkuh (Feb 17, 2011)

Witchiebunny said:


> I suppose an equally good question is....why do I still have access to my @furaffinity.net e-mail account?


 
My question is... why wouldn't you? It's not like creating a mail account is that hard, or that it's dire that it needs to be removed. I guess it's kinda like a party favor XD You get to keep it if you were staff :3 (Mine is still being spammed the hell out of with random christian mailing lists)


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 17, 2011)

nrr said:


> You're still staff on the forums, no?


 


Arshes Nei said:


> Personally, I don't see the problem, since you're a forum administrator. If you have to reply to people outside the forum, your mail is useful. Being able to email staff on both sides makes it easier to communicate overall.


 


Pinkuh said:


> My question is... why wouldn't you? It's not like creating a mail account is that hard, or that it's dire that it needs to be removed. I guess it's kinda like a party favor XD You get to keep it if you were staff :3 (Mine is still being spammed the hell out of with random christian mailing lists)


 
I guess my understanding was that it was for current FA mainsite staff only, but in that vein you guys are right, I'm still FAF staff and can still use the e-mail for official FA stuff.


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## Eevee (Feb 17, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Just updating the thread, we were given a policy and a minimum.
> 
> Yes, there is a 10 day period.


This was Feb 8; nine days ago.

How's it going?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 17, 2011)

Eevee said:


> This was Feb 8; nine days ago.
> 
> How's it going?


 
The email came out on that Tuesday Evening, and like I said one of the problems is...he didn't cross check the emails he sent them out to. I had to send out some of those emails again to those who asked and that happened over the past weekend. I still have no idea if everyone got that email which makes it more difficult because now that is a valid excuse for negligence on his behalf. :/

When I checked yesterday the TTs went down to 11 pages. 
I noticed some inactive admins out of hiding and helping out more often which some realize and owned up to this problem which is good.

He has not spoken to me since, his last message was about the Notice I had about "Pardon our Dust" which is a notice a user can just X (or close) out. I had spoken to him about my concerns about a particular admin and even logged the chat in question. No response. 

Another point of events is that I noticed some changes sofware-wise to the site. The problem though, is that rather than send an email out, because *those software changes actually affect the admin policy sent out* it was broadcast on IRC. Not everyone is going to be on IRC every day and if it affects how we police the site, it is the responsibility of those involved to make sure everyone is aware of changes. 

I want to note the chain of events that lead to this thread in the first place.

Jan 10th, I sent an email to Neer and a few other staff members about this issue, one of them was also yak. 

Since it's my email (meaning my own words) and not some company one, here's a snippet and bolding for emphasis (I sent this message twice, and the reply all message which included him, had the below):

_I'd give the inactive admins another week or 2 (so Feb) - or I'll personally start harping on them - *or rather campaigning publicly* (because it's been said but not done) as to why they persist to be on the site - specially those who have been on staff for over a year. There's no excuse unless they've told you or left a message that they're taking a leave of absence. _

The subject was about adding more site admins, Nylak and Ariel MT. He was quick on the response for that, and slow on the second part.

The last email I got from that was "I'll have it done by Friday" (on the same week that email was sent out). That deadline was blown. Mine was not. 

The sad part is that I get "well I agree with what she said, but not her methods" but no one was doing anything. We were told "it's on its way, it's on its way" but no action. I gave a specific deadline as to when I'd act. I stood by it.

I still encourage a strike if we have admins not doing the work, but I can't *make them strike* if they are too scared to do it.


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## Armaetus (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm betting those inactive admins are just doing it as an excuse to appear active so they don't get sacked and likely will go back into being useless after day 10.

Speaking of Wicht/Dereco, I normally see him on IRC and is usually active during the evening hours. One time I brought up an issue and he got defensive and snobby over it because I was "bothering him on his off time" or some lame excuse like that. Off time? Isn't that all the time since you hardly do _ANYTHING_ to help on the site? There is almost never "off time" when someone comes for you for assistance from the site! Don't be a dick and help them, especially when they are being polite/courteous to you!

Based on what I heard from someone in the channel who is close geologically and knows him, he seems to be lazy in real life also and is usually asking favors from him.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 17, 2011)

_*Treat Users With Respect*

Admins are to treat users professionally. Be firm, but congenial. Even if users aren't paying customers (ads/subs/donators) we need to maintain proper relationships with our users and treat them right. Admins should not be afraid to stand up for their actions, but should do so professionally._

Also it does depend on how you are reading the situation. I tend to be blunt often avoiding flowerly language or so forth. Some users have taken that as a "lack of respect" and prefer *cuddles, murrs and hugs*.

Since I'm getting just your side, I dunno. You have a tendency to rub people the wrong way, and while the policy states we need to be congenial, it also depends on what he said and how you took it.

I should be adding on, there is a place to engage too, you have to cut some people some slack. I mean if I am on a different chat I don't really want you coming to me asking about FA constantly. Again we are volunteers, but we should be having some time to enjoy other things too.

I felt the need to post that so users understand, we were given that guideline to converse with our users on site problems.


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## Armaetus (Feb 17, 2011)

Yea, sometimes I am but I only asked Wicht once on this matter when I brought up my issue with something on FA.

Edit: Day 9 now, and admins getting their asses in gear on the last two days shouldn't count at all. It's just because they're saving their own skin.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 19, 2011)

Just hit day 11.

I see no changes.


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

As an aside: Nearly full moon AND it's raining, so response might be a bit... odd. 

Well, yes. It's been a few days since that deadline, and quite a few mods who have been inactive are steping up and taking on a share of the load. Some haven't. 

I'm going to let it go another day or two - from when I could reasonably expect any mods active at all to have been informed of the new rules. I didn't even get my copy for a few days, because it was not sent to my "I check this about five times an hour" e-mail.. After that, I'm going to start biting some tails, hard.

Edit:

It's also only about an hour and a half into day 11.


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## Accountability (Feb 19, 2011)

Summercat said:


> I'm going to let it go another day or two - from when I could reasonably expect any mods active at all to have been informed of the new rules. I didn't even get my copy for a few days, because it was not sent to my "I check this about five times an hour" e-mail.. After that, I'm going to start biting some tails, hard.


 
Yes, because these people, who have had _two years *PLUS* ten days_ to get their act together should be given _another_ day or two _just in case_ they didn't check their email _within the past week_. They should know what's going on just by seeing the forums or being in the staff IRC. If they don't know what's going on, they're not active enough to be an admin.

If they're not doing stuff, then it's clear that they're not going to start anytime soon. If the staff can't be bothered to keep their email on record then maybe they aren't responsible enough to be an admin. This should be a moot point, the staff should all have @furaffinity.net addresses and all their official site business should be conducted on that. If they're not responsible enough to check their official email, then maybe they're not responsible enough to be on staff.

TL;DR: The grace period is over, giving them "an extra day or two" at this point is just a cop-out for not wanting to can them.


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

Accountability said:


> Yes, because these people, who have had _two years *PLUS* ten days_ to get their act together should be given _another_ day or two _just in case_ they didn't check their email _within the past week_. They should know what's going on just by seeing the forums or being in the staff IRC. If they don't know what's going on, they're not active enough to be an admin.
> 
> If they're not doing stuff, then it's clear that they're not going to start anytime soon. If the staff can't be bothered to keep their email on record then maybe they aren't responsible enough to be an admin. This should be a moot point, the staff should all have @furaffinity.net addresses and all their official site business should be conducted on that. If they're not responsible enough to check their official email, then maybe they're not responsible enough to be on staff.
> 
> TL;DR: The grace period is over, giving them "an extra day or two" at this point is just a cop-out for not wanting to can them.


 
Actually, I'm saying an extra two days was because we used an additional method to alert people two days after the initial e-mail was sent. I was part of the staff caught in that additional method. Since even some active staff weren't aware the guidelines had been out for two days, especially in the cases the e-mails were not people's personal e-mails, it seems prudent to start the 10 days from a point were we can all reasonably expect people to be aware of the new guidelines.

But don't let that ruin a good rage now.

--==Edit==--

Want to make clear: I am saying *I'm* lenient on the 'extra' two days. I'm not speaking for Arshes or Dragoneer.


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## Redregon (Feb 19, 2011)

i really hope that this extension is the only extension that's given... but i am cynical... so a part of me is expecting that this extension will continue indefinately

so, which is it? are these deadbeat mods going to get the boot like they should or are they going to be given indefininite amounts of time to start doing their job?


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

Redregon said:


> i really hope that this extension is the only extension that's given... but i am cynical... so a part of me is expecting that this extension will continue indefinately
> 
> so, which is it? are these deadbeat mods going to get the boot like they should or are they going to be given indefininite amounts of time to start doing their job?


 
If the admins who haven't stepped up to start working are still listed as admins within a day or so, I believe Arshes is going to do as she stated. Beyond that, I will also be pulling Dragoneer's tail to get him to take action.


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## Redregon (Feb 19, 2011)

Summercat said:


> If the admins who haven't stepped up to start working are still listed as admins within a day or so, I believe Arshes is going to do as she stated. Beyond that, I will also be pulling Dragoneer's tail to get him to take action.


 
i hope you'll forgive my cynicism but i'll believe it when i see it.


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

Redregon said:


> i hope you'll forgive my cynicism but i'll believe it when i see it.


 
If it doesn't happen, I'll eat my...

Hum. I don't have anything I can eat that won't kill me,that I wouldn't eat anyhow.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 19, 2011)

I've messaged Dragoneer last night and even last week where he was logged in about this matter. I guess it is more important to make journals about  MINECRAFT than staff morale. His attitude is to ignore me.

At this time I'll be talking with other staff members but I do need some time because I have some other matters to take care of as well.


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## Armaetus (Feb 19, 2011)

I thought yesterday was Day 9, maybe I got things confused? *Looks at Admins page* Hey look, the useless staff are still there, why am I not surprised?

Considering tonight will be downtime, maybe those folks will be nuked during then but I'm not holding my breath that he will be. I doubt shit's gonna change. It's just all talk and no action lately from him. It's up for him to make the moves, not let this BFF Syndrome bullshit get in the way with removing people such as Wicht.


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## Aden (Feb 19, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Actually, I'm saying an extra two days was because we used an additional method to alert people two days after the initial e-mail was sent. I was part of the staff caught in that additional method. Since even some active staff weren't aware the guidelines had been out for two days, especially in the cases the e-mails were not people's personal e-mails, it seems prudent to start the 10 days from a point were we can all reasonably expect people to be aware of the new guidelines.
> 
> But don't let that ruin a good rage now.
> 
> ...


 
I think eight days is still plenty of time to demonstrate not sitting on one's ass


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## Redregon (Feb 19, 2011)

Honestly, i want to know why he'd be dragging his heels if he is intentionally doing so... what his reasons are is what i'm wondering about and his view on the matter... not PR or spin, but the real reason behind it all...


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

Aden said:


> I think eight days is still plenty of time to demonstrate not sitting on one's ass


 
Honestly? Yes. I think the admins who weren't working who are still aren't working, aren't going to do so, and those who have started working, are going to stay.


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## Armaetus (Feb 19, 2011)

A good site owner should always be open to his or her staff members and moderaters, especially on internal concerns such as staff members sitting around doing nothing for years on end and not acting like a big egotistical crybaby when people start paying attention to it as well. The same goes for letting emotions get in the way of work when one doesn't really want to remove someone from the list that is also a friend or closer to said owner.

It's simply not fair for those staff who are ACTUALLY HELPING out with the site while a select handful are doing nothing but using their status as an e-peen measurement versus normal users.

I might be abrasive at times but I am being abrasive this time around because of useless 6 or so staff members (Bijoux, Fox Amoore, Glaide, Kyojin, Silver R. Wolfe and Wicht) do nothing to actually help and are corroding the morale of those helping (Arshes, Pinkuh, Surgat, Nylak, Warmock, etc).

What the fuck, if *I* was in Dragoneer's position, they would have been out on their asses after 6 months of inactivity. Also, I wouldn't let emotions or any BFF crap get in the way of maintaining order in doing my job.


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

Glaice said:


> A good site owner should always be open to his or her staff members and moderaters, especially on internal concerns such as staff members sitting around doing nothing for years on end and not acting like a big egotistical crybaby when people start paying attention to it as well. The same goes for letting emotions get in the way of work when one doesn't really want to remove someone from the list that is also a friend or closer to said owner.
> 
> It's simply not fair for those staff who are ACTUALLY HELPING out with the site while a select handful are doing nothing but using their status as an e-peen measurement versus normal users.
> 
> ...


 
Bijoux has been back on track answering tickets and solving problems, and I have never had an issue with Fox Amoore, to whom I direct all the music-based trouble tickets. As for the others, I don't know what their activity level has been.


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## Armaetus (Feb 19, 2011)

Has been? Since when? When I posted TTs in the past, it's usually Warmock or some of the other known TT answerers.


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## Redregon (Feb 19, 2011)

i would like to see the statistics of tickets handled and by whom... there are claims that the deadbeat mods are doing work but how are we to really know that that's true? 

again, cynical...


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## ShadowWalker (Feb 19, 2011)

Redregon said:


> i would like to see the statistics of tickets handled and by whom... there are claims that the deadbeat mods are doing work but how are we to really know that that's true?
> 
> again, cynical...


 

I'd like to see them as well, but also starts on the work they've done since the new policy was put into place verses what they've done since they became mods


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 19, 2011)

You know he asked me to have faith in him in that journal. I'm honestly starting to feel burned.


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## Summercat (Feb 19, 2011)

I've been assisting Bijou with tickets myself, and Fox Amoore has always been able to handle the Music-based tickets that I couldn't handle myself because I know fudge all about the topic - and he does. Beyond that, I don't know what the other mods have been doing - I haven't seen any increase in activity myself.


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## TakeWalker (Feb 19, 2011)

If you don't do music tickets, you probably would see Amoore less. But he's always there for the music, and trust me: I file a lot of them.


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## Terrah. (Feb 20, 2011)

I have a few things to add. 

First, I want to commend Ratte for helping me with two trouble tickets. One was submitted today and answered and resolved in less than an hour. The second I submitted in mid to late December for harassment and it has been overlooked. I mentioned it to Ratte, and they resolved it right away, with a fairly acceptable outcome(I would've liked a _little _more punishment, but hey, I'll take it.  ). I am very pleased with Ratte's promptness, and while they weren't over the top friendly(as some people would prefer), they were far from rude and that is okay with me.  Very happy. Thank you Ratte.

Second, I'm curious to know how admins are chosen? It seems like inactivity shouldn't be such a problem. Do you have to apply to be an admin? Does someone just say "Hey, you'd make a great admin. Wanna join?" Is it some exclusive BFF thing and that's why inactive admins aren't being removed? Some insight on the "hiring" process would really be appreciated.

And lastly, checking the staff page, I see there are "admins" and "support admins". What is the difference? Do they have different responsibilities and privileges? Any insight would be great.  Thanks.


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## Armaetus (Feb 20, 2011)

The way they are chosen should not include any sort of ass kissing/dick sucking, but that's another story as they subject should try and stay on course with the OP's first post.


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## Alstor (Feb 20, 2011)

Terrah. said:


> Second, I'm curious to know how admins are chosen? It seems like inactivity shouldn't be such a problem. Do you have to apply to be an admin? Does someone just say "Hey, you'd make a great admin. Wanna join?" Is it some exclusive BFF thing and that's why inactive admins aren't being removed? Some insight on the "hiring" process would really be appreciated.


 I think it was said somewhere in here, but due to how big the thread is, I'll let it pass.

Usually, you apply on these forums when the drafts come up. That means submitting an essay explaining why you deserve to be a forum mod. When you get elected in my the staff and do your job, you move up to supermod, and then if the main site staff likes you, you become a lesser admin, and then a full out admin.

I know Witchie skipped the supermod stage, but that was because of her work on TFP. Some of the mods that were here since Alkora gave Neer the job were elected in due to BFF hood with Alkora, as is the case with most first time sites. They ended up becoming friends with Neer. So in a way, the BFF part is true.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 20, 2011)

I dunno why people keep talking about the newer admins. I keep saying that Ratte (and new admins) wasn't the problem, and was saying it was admins around for several years not doing the work. Yet this thread needs constant re-assurance? What is the problem?

Read the thread. 

In any event, Neer did finally state he will be having net-cat give him a report and release the admins that have not followed up the following day. So let's hope that actually happens. We do a lot of talking, but not actual action which makes it hard for not only users to believe in staff, but staff to believe in anything.


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## Armaetus (Feb 20, 2011)

@Arshes: I really hope so, as my confidence for 'Neer is already at an all-time low.


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## Nylak (Feb 21, 2011)

It's stuff like this that make me stick my fingers in my ears and run around singing LALALALALA at the top of my lungs.

I get enough drama at my day job.

CARRY ON.


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## Armaetus (Feb 21, 2011)

Nylak said:


> It's stuff like this that make me stick my fingers in my ears and run around singing LALALALALA at the top of my lungs.
> 
> I get enough drama at my day job.
> 
> CARRY ON.



I am disappoint


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## Ratte (Feb 21, 2011)

Alstor said:


> I think it was said somewhere in here, but due to how big the thread is, I'll let it pass.
> 
> Usually, you apply on these forums when the drafts come up. That means submitting an essay explaining why you deserve to be a forum mod. When you get elected in my the staff and do your job, you move up to supermod, and then if the main site staff likes you, you become a lesser admin, and then a full out admin..


 
Eeeeh, kind of.  There is no 'lesser admin' on here, just forum admin and mainsite admin.  Both have their respective duties.  Site admins will generally have the same privileges on FAF as a supermod/global mod, but forum admins may or may not have privileges on FA.  Both are separate sites.  Also, there's no difference in "support admin" and "admin" on FA.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 21, 2011)

Actually Ratte, there is a difference. Support admins are meant to be focusing solely on TT's.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 21, 2011)

Considering the major way staff of all levels are informed of problems are TTs, there really is no difference, just "Support" in front. As every admin is supposed to be answering tickets anyway, so having two different types of admins, one of which whose only apparent purpose on the team is to answer tickets is.. silly.

But at this point nothing really surprises me. I just figured Support Admin meant Admin-in-training, or something.


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## Witchiebunny (Feb 21, 2011)

I didn't say I understood the difference, Aurora, I'm just saying, that's how Support Admins are "defined"


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 21, 2011)

Eh, well remember some admins are greater in scope. Like you know that abandoned wiki...

We used to have some "lead Admin" now it's like everyone fighting or thinking they're in second place. So much for structure.


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## Freehaven (Feb 21, 2011)

It makes me wonder why someone hasn't stepped in to try and clear all the confusion up.


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## GreenReaper (Feb 21, 2011)

Presumably because he's working full-time on his art.

I tend to agree, though. FA needs a steward - someone respected by both staff and users who is willing to step up and make decisions, no matter how difficult or unpleasant.

Sometimes the founder or owner of a site is an appropriate steward. If not, it is up to them to appoint one.


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## Ben (Feb 22, 2011)

Meanwhile, it seems no staff have been removed during that update. Wonder what happened.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm aware, but I'll have to catch him when he's active tomorrow.

It's almost like Gary Condit, before 9/11 happened


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## Freehaven (Feb 22, 2011)

GreenReaper said:


> FA needs a steward - someone respected by both staff and users who is willing to step up and make decisions, no matter how difficult or unpleasant.
> 
> Sometimes the founder or owner of a site is an appropriate steward. If not, it is up to them to appoint one.



This is pretty much exactly how I feel about the situation. Dragoneer could easily be the "final word" in extremely important matters, especially pertaining to major issues with the site (such as its funding), but having a steward to be his "second-in-command" (as it were) would probably ease a lot of his stress. (Well, that, or it would give him someone to deflect blame towards. You know, whichever thought process works for him.)

It is too bad that Dragoneer does not trust anyone enough to have that sort of position made available. Even if it was, it would probably be someone who Dragoneer thinks he could get to think his way instead of acting impartially (in other words: do not go after the "big name" furs or his Internet BFFs).

Then again, I live to be proven wrong, and if Dragoneer proved me wrong on this, I would be more than pleased with that outcome.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 22, 2011)

This is why I try to find or have a backup admin on the forums. There are too many on staff that shoulder too much responsibility. For example look how much of the site falls on a single programmer. For a smaller site it isn't so bad but you should have someone able to shadow and share enough so that when one is out, things feel like a bottleneck. I was able to take breaks I needed because I trust in them even if I don't always agree


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 22, 2011)

2 admins have been released as of today.


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## Aden (Feb 22, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> 2 admins have been released as of today.


 
Progress! The rest of them have begun pulling their weight, then?


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## Armaetus (Feb 22, 2011)

Which ones?

EDIT: Oh wait, the ones doing jack shit are still there. :|


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## MandertehPander (Feb 22, 2011)

Released, or they resigned before they got the boot?


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## Yoshiya (Feb 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> 2 admins have been released as of today.


 Are we allowed to know which two?


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## Armaetus (Feb 23, 2011)

I know Kyojin resigned, or was that journal of his a good sugar coating that he was actually removed by Neer? I don't know much if at all in psychological stuff so I can't tell.


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## Yoshiya (Feb 23, 2011)

Glaice said:


> I know Kyojin resigned, or was that journal of his a good sugar coating that he was actually removed by Neer? I don't know much if at all in psychological stuff so I can't tell.


 
Aw, I liked Kyoujin. He was lovely.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 23, 2011)

Aden said:


> Progress! The rest of them have begun pulling their weight, then?


 
Some, yes...some got a holdover till March one of which is caustic and unfair. But at least some of the inactive ones got released.

Meaning that the inactive admin got ANOTHER extension. This one isn't up to date on the rules, refuses to use a better browser, because "too lazy" and spends more time talking on dragonyiff than the admin chat.


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## Taralack (Feb 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Some, yes...some got a holdover till March one of which is caustic and unfair. But at least some of the inactive ones got released.
> 
> Meaning that the inactive admin got ANOTHER extension. This one isn't up to date on the rules, refuses to use a better browser, because "too lazy" and spends more time talking on dragonyiff than the admin chat.


 
This forum needs a "facepalm" button.


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## Ben (Feb 23, 2011)

Toraneko said:


> This forum needs a "facepalm" button.


 
No, I'm pretty sure the This button fills this forum's quota of furries abusing memes years after they stopped being funny.


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## Armaetus (Feb 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Some, yes...some got a holdover till March one of which is caustic and unfair. But at least some of the inactive ones got released.
> 
> Meaning that the inactive admin got ANOTHER extension. This one isn't up to date on the rules, refuses to use a better browser, because "too lazy" and spends more time talking on dragonyiff than the admin chat.



This simply shows Dragoneer is stubborn on letting certain admins go and I am disappointed and way past the ten day period which is very annoying to some of us, especially those wanting progress. Wicht is the one and I know what you mean, he doesn't do shit for the site and he's on #dragonyiff daily, usually under the name Deroco. If he's "too lazy", he should give up his post as he's not helping at all in this situation. :|


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## Ricky (Feb 23, 2011)

For the record, I just filed my first TT ever since I joined the site like 5 or 6 years ago and it got both answered and handled LIGHTNING FAST.


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## Aden (Feb 23, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Some, yes...some got a holdover till March one of which is caustic and unfair. But at least some of the inactive ones got released.
> 
> Meaning that the inactive admin got ANOTHER extension. This one isn't up to date on the rules, refuses to use a better browser, because "too lazy" and spends more time talking on dragonyiff than the admin chat.


 
I think the worst thing about this ultimatum is that I bet the lazy admins are viewing this as a one-time speedbump. Oh phew, we're over the hurdle! Don't have to work again until the next one might come around in two years!

Keep bitching about this


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## Xenke (Feb 23, 2011)

Ricky said:


> For the record, I just filed my first TT ever since I joined the site like 5 or 6 years ago and it got both answered and handled LIGHTNING FAST.


 
It really depends on what it is though, and who can actually handle it.

I think the one that got answered the fasted for me was answered by Nylak.


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## Nylak (Feb 23, 2011)

Xenke said:


> It really depends on what it is though, and who can actually handle it.
> 
> I think the one that got answered the fasted for me was answered by Nylak.


Because I am AWESOME.

Don't act like you don't know it.


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## Xenke (Feb 23, 2011)

Nylak said:


> Because I am AWESOME.
> 
> Don't act like you don't know it.


 
But I do know it, you're my favorite. :C


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## Armaetus (Feb 23, 2011)

Nylak said:


> Because I am AWESOME.
> 
> Don't act like you don't know it.


 
You are, as are some of the others such as Warmock and Summercat...then again there are ones that I am iffy with such as Carenath after the Miserable Users plugin fiasco..

Hmm, I don't see Arshes Nei or Pinkuh on the main staff page either..I assume Pinkuh retired and Arshes either resigned or did the same for the main page.


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## Nylak (Feb 23, 2011)

Glaice said:


> Hmm, I don't see Arshes Nei or Pinkuh on the main staff page either..I assume Pinkuh retired and Arshes either resigned or did the same for the main page.


Pinkuh resigned. Arshes is obviously still a mainsite admin, but I think she's focusing her attentions on running the forum and being the primary social and professional link between the forum community/staff and the mainsite community/staff, rather than handling the day-to-day little issues that crop up that the rest of us grunts can take care of.


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## Summercat (Feb 23, 2011)

Nylak said:


> Because I am AWESOME.
> 
> Don't act like you don't know it.


 
Well, of course you're awesome.

You're an otter.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 23, 2011)

Leave it to 'Neer to go back on his word repeatedly.

I'd say my respect for him dropped (Yet again) but it's hard when any respect and credibility I had for him is ten feet in the ground.


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## Nylak (Feb 23, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Well, of course you're awesome.
> 
> You're an otter.



YEAHHHH.

HIGH FIVE.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 23, 2011)

Two otters just high fived.
Somewhere a planet just exploded.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 23, 2011)

Nylak said:


> Pinkuh resigned. Arshes is obviously still a mainsite admin, but I think she's focusing her attentions on running the forum and being the primary social and professional link between the forum community/staff and the mainsite community/staff, rather than handling the day-to-day little issues that crop up that the rest of us grunts can take care of.


 
I am aware this keeps getting lost because I have stated this before but I will explain.

I have never been listed on FA's main site staff page and this is by my request.

This is my personal view and not the site. I don't believe in having my name up there when it seems like a place to get cheap watches. The staff page was full of idle admins and I wanted no part of being placed there when there was no pride or ppl doing the work. I am more concerned on evolving staff so that the site and its users benefit. My name doesn't need to be there to accomplish this.

I also mainly work on the forums and lend a hand with TTs or when site members need help on the forums and file a TT on the main site.

I don't feel right putting my name up there like some furry Hollywood Squares  ... especially since well I am just an artist and not looking for that kind of e-fame. It just seems silly. I don't feel right when you can't rightfully call the staff a team by latching on to staff that don't help and not only have been insulting to me, but other members working hard on the site.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 23, 2011)

Aden said:


> I think the worst thing about this ultimatum is that I bet the lazy admins are viewing this as a one-time speedbump. Oh phew, we're over the hurdle! Don't have to work again until the next one might come around in two years!
> 
> Keep bitching about this


 
Another post while I am on break (at work).

I will because the minimum was 12 per week. This wasn't a one time deal.


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## Armaetus (Feb 25, 2011)

Yep, it seems Deroco is stubborn on giving up his spot when he's absolutely useless to the team AFAIK...

_* Deroco flops and sprawls.
<Glaice> Snow's almost gone now, thank goodness
<Deroco> Oh yeah, I owe Glaice a fuck you.
<Deroco> There, done, whee.
* Deroco yawns.
* KaleShadowWalker spots Deroco's open maw and tosses a marshmellow into it.
* Deroco declines.
* Glaice eats it instead, lazy scales
-Some stuff snipped out-
* Deroco slaps Orcinus butt and idles *so boring* in here.
-More useless stuff snipped-
<Glaice> If it's so boring, why don't you do something useful with the spare time?
<Glaice> Such as that memo I sent?
<Glaice> :B
<Deroco> Never got a memo and I don't care about you or your opinions Glaice. Kinda funny because you go out of your way a lot of the time to communicate with me but I'd have thought by now that you rarely ever get a response back seem kinda, moot for the most part, hm?
<Glaice> Because I can
<Deroco> I have no idea what you are talking about, resign Dragonyiff? Not going to happen. 
<Glaice> No, FA admin
<Deroco> In anycase I'm done with you, humorous for 1.2 seconds and now bored again.
<Glaice> He contributes absolutely nothing to the team AFAIK
* Glaice shrugs
<Glaice> With that, I'm done on my daily bitching about people
<Deroco> Like anyone even listens to you rambling on about something you know nothing about. 
-More nonsense clipped-
<Glaice> I said I was done._

My memo basically was calling him out on his uselessness, so what do we come of his responses regarding my little convo in #dragonyiff?


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## Xenke (Feb 25, 2011)

Glaice said:


> -a very saddening convo-


 
Well, this seems like something that should be brought to the attention of all of the staff at most, and at least should be used in a case to be brought to 'Neer.

Also, +1 person listening.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 25, 2011)

Indeed, I have other logs of him doing and saying the same thing. I may have some that go back a couple years, too. I just gotta look up the dates. I'm sending recent ones to Neer, and CC'ing other staff if other staff members want them just PM me in chat or something.


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## Aden (Feb 25, 2011)

Glaice said:


> #dragonyiff


 
god dammit glaice

Also I don't see a 'Deroco' on http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/; what's he go by on the site?


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 25, 2011)

Aden said:


> god dammit glaice
> 
> Also I don't see a 'Deroco' on http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/; what's he go by on the site?


 
I am 99 precent sure its wicht.


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## Corto (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm kind of terrible at keeping up with the news. How many, if any, staff have been removed/resigned since this whole "we're tired of you lazy bums" thing started?

Also, RE Dragonyiff: God dammit Glaice.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 26, 2011)

Corto said:


> I'm kind of terrible at keeping up with the news. How many, if any, staff have been removed/resigned since this whole "we're tired of you lazy bums" thing started?
> 
> Also, RE Dragonyiff: God dammit Glaice.


 
2?


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## Armaetus (Feb 26, 2011)

@Aden and dinosaurdammit: Yes, that's Wicht's other chara/alt.


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## Alstor (Feb 26, 2011)

Trpdwarf said:


> 2?


 One was Silver, the other was Kyoujin. Those are the two I see gone from Dave's list. However, Silver still has access to otherwise admin perks.


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## Xenke (Feb 26, 2011)

Alstor said:


> One was Silver, the other was Kyoujin. Those are the two I see gone from Dave's list. However, Silver still has access to otherwise admin perks.


 
On the site, he seems to still have admin power (seeing as it say "Administrator" next to his name).

The fuck.


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## Corto (Feb 26, 2011)

Alstor said:


> One was Silver, the other was Kyoujin. Those are the two I see gone from Dave's list. However, Silver still has access to otherwise admin perks.


Is getting your house set on fire an admin power or am I missing something painfully obvious?


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## Xenke (Feb 26, 2011)

Corto said:


> Is getting your house set on fire an admin power or am I missing something painfully obvious?


 
The ability to embed images in journals.


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## Corto (Feb 26, 2011)

Oh. Maybe he was just removed from the visible list when you click on the "staff" button but not yet had his powers removed? Maybe it's just a mistake or coincidence or whatever. As the old saying goes, never assume malice when good ol' ineffectiveness suffices.


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## Xenke (Feb 26, 2011)

Corto said:


> Oh. Maybe he was just removed from the visible list when you click on the "staff" button but not yet had his powers removed? Maybe it's just a mistake or coincidence or whatever. As the old saying goes, never assume malice when good ol' ineffectiveness suffices.


 
It's still annoying. I'm assuming to takes something like one or two clicks to change a user from an admin to a regular user, pretty much as easy as it is to remove someone from the admin page, and it still hasn't been addressed?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

No he was removed, and then just as easily gave the admin access back. So ...yeah...

welcome to the house of waffles.


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## Xenke (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm guessing that feelings were hurt, or the 'unfair' card was played?


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## Fiz (Feb 26, 2011)

So is the admin that just now got their account broken into gonna be reinstated too?????


Might as well just give everyone their admin back despite the repeated mistakes! GOSH


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## Smelge (Feb 26, 2011)

Hey wait. If admins can come back as easily as that, can we get Asswings back too?


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Fiz said:


> So is the admin that just now got their account broken into gonna be reinstated too?????
> 
> 
> Might as well just give everyone their admin back despite the repeated mistakes! GOSH


 
Actually, no. Rhainor requested that we not re-admin him at this time, as he was already considering leaving temporarily due to being moved to full time at his job, and wouldn't have as much free time to help FA out.


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## Fiz (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Actually, no. Rhainor requested that we not re-admin him at this time, as he was already considering leaving temporarily due to being moved to full time at his job, and wouldn't have as much free time to help FA out.


 
Well hey, that works.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

Glaide was de-admin'ed in 2007 for not doing anything for months on end.  He promptly demanded to be re-admin'ed (it was unfair and feelings were hurt), and he was immediately allowed back and he gave his word that he would be active. He promptly went back to doing nothing for a few more years.

When Silverrwolfe immediately gets his tarnished and dusty-from-disuse @ back, why, it is just the same old thing all over again.


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## Ben (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> Glaide was de-admin'ed in 2007 for not doing anything for months on end.  He promptly demanded to be re-admin'ed (it was unfair and feelings were hurt), and he was immediately allowed back and he gave his word that he would be active. He promptly went back to doing nothing for a few more years.
> 
> When Silverrwolfe immediately gets his tarnished and dusty-from-disuse @ back, why, it is just the same old thing all over again.


 
What makes that story even more mystifying is that some admins were clearly disallowed from having mod powers on the forum after the December '10 hack occurred, likely due to not caring about it-- and yet Glaide was reinstated as a supermod when the forum came back up. What I don't get is though, how is communication supposed to be improved if not all the admins have access to the admin forums? They clearly did it out of concerns for security, and yet it means keeping certain admins out of the loop, like Bijoux, Rhainor, FoxAmoore and SilverWolfe. In the end, it seems it was a hamfisted way to solve one problem, and only furthered the problem with another.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

It's always been the case that not all admins have been in the loop. As I think I've mentioned, Wicht, Glaide or Silverrwolfe went for months at a time without reading the forums or going on the staff IRC channel, and that was 3 years ago.

For a portion of the staff to have no idea what is going on is business as usual.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Ben said:


> What makes that story even more mystifying is that some admins were clearly disallowed from having mod powers on the forum after the December '10 hack occurred, likely due to not caring about it-- and yet Glaide was reinstated as a supermod when the forum came back up. What I don't get is though, how is communication supposed to be improved if not all the admins have access to the admin forums? They clearly did it out of concerns for security, and yet it means keeping certain admins out of the loop, like Bijoux, Rhainor, FoxAmoore and SilverWolfe. In the end, it seems it was a hamfisted way to solve one problem, and only furthered the problem with another.


 
In that sense, we now have an additional method of communication for the admins for issues, one that is internal to FA mainsite. So hopefully we can start smoothing out some of these wrinkles.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> we now have an additional method of communication for the admins for issues, one that is internal to FA mainsite. So hopefully we can start smoothing out some of these wrinkles.


 
What guarantee is there that lazy admins won't ignore it as they've ignored all the other methods of communication?

Especially given that as Silverrwolfe so recently shows, you can simply demand your @ back and Sean will cave right in.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> What guarantee is there that lazy admins won't ignore it as they've ignored all the other methods of communication?
> 
> Especially given that as Silverrwolfe so recently shows, you can simply demand your @ back and Sean will cave right in.


 
Ignore is another issue entirely. Some issues are just not getting around to admins due to poor communication channels.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

Summercat said:


> Ignore is another issue entirely. Some issues are just not getting around to admins due to poor communication channels.



There is already a staff IRC channel and admin forum/s, on top of notes/PMs/etc. It's not an issue of poor communication channels: it's an issue of lazy admins and Sean not communicating in the appropriate places and ignoring some people.


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## Summercat (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> There is already a staff IRC channel and admin forum/s, on top of notes/PMs/etc. It's not an issue of poor communication channels: it's an issue of lazy admins and Sean not communicating in the appropriate places and ignoring some people.


 
No, on several separate issues, and while you are awfully quick to blame Dragoneer over this, he is by no means the worst offender when it comes to this. I can't really blame 'lazy admins' unless you wish to include me in that company, as I keep not getting certain information as well - and I'm on IRC almost constantly, and the only time I don't check FA at least once a half hour is when I'm asleep. There's not any reason why I should be out of the loop on anything, aside from poor communication channels.

Until we can get a look on where those are failing, I can't really pin any blame on 'idle' or 'lazy' admins, since if they haven't received any notice on something, then they honestly wouldn't know.

EDIT:

This is in regards to communication only. Doing admin work is another issue entirely.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

Sean took FA into his hands; he runs the site, there is no lead admin. He does not effectively/consistently delegate on certain matters, and therefore responsibility lies with him.

So, there is an admin forum. There is a staff IRC channel. There are notes and PMs. Instead Sean is using twitter, engaging in chats on deviant-art and giving interviews to Brazilian furry sites to convey information about downtime et al. I believe he also goes out of contact at the weekends. Lazy parasite admins do not communicate with the rest of the staff and only add to this morass with their barnacle like clinging to their @'s. All that is where the communication problem is. 

If he would have FA run a little better, I think Sean needs to effectively delegate more and use the proper communication channels with the active staff (and not ignore them!), he also needs to let the lazy admins go once and for all.

It's farcical that Silver is allowed his @ back and it makes a completely mockery of this trouble ticket policy and Sean's promises. I hope that Sean wakes/faces up to what is happening ASAP. Ignoring it won't make it go away and nor will threatening do anything except drive away/burn out active staff.


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## Corto (Feb 26, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> No he was removed, and then just as easily gave the admin access back. So ...yeah...
> 
> welcome to the house of waffles.


 
Nice. This sounds both logical and professional.


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## Armaetus (Feb 26, 2011)

Maybe using Twitter to get to him might help a bit but may have varied results.

Silver is a whiny bitch who does not deserve that @ as it shows he does not use it and waves it like an e-penis badge to friends and Wicht as seen above is an arrogant lazy bastard who doesn't do nothing at all either. This is unacceptable and I don't even know why Sean is allowing all this bullshit to persist for years on end. A real site owner would deal with 'corrosive' lazy staff promptly and would be more open with communication with the community and the rest of the staff as well, without being sidetracked by stupid shit on Twitter.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

Glaice, we have had over 500 posts trying to keep it civil. I ask you do the same or I will have you banned.


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## Armaetus (Feb 26, 2011)

Sorry about that if it's too abrasive, I guess it was some frustration after reading the last few posts.


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## WarMocK (Feb 26, 2011)

*sigh*
Okay, i think it's time to show up in here as well and donate my 2 cents of wisdom.
First of all, I want to thank you people wo say that the ones who answer the tickets (more less) do a good job, and I want to apologize to those who have to wait for an answer. BUT - and it's a really big BUT - I must ask you not to point your fingers at just one of the many issues you have - you#ll inevitably point three fingers at yourself at the same time, and for a good reason.
Allow me to explain this a bit with a simple example, namely the content of a trouble ticket I tried to answer 4 days ago, with NO reply from the user who wrote it. I am NOT gonna add anything to the ticket's content, and I do NOT leave anything out, and before anyone starts complaining about me giving out 2private information written in a trouble ticket": eat my shorts and read what I posted before complaining: :v

The content of the ticket was:
"He's harrassing one of my friends and unfairly reporting him when he's  doing nothing. This is based on personal beef trying to get back at him"

Now, anybody with at least som common sense would call for a time-out at this point and start asking:"HUH?! Who? What did he do? Why isn't HE reporting the issue?!". It might seem amusing to you if you see this once, but guess what: it happens damn often! We get a lot of tickets that fall under the following category:
- Technical problems: Stuff concerning issues that we (the admins who just deal with the tickets and otherwise keep the site running) cannot answer because they are too technical, or are common probs like avatars not showing up after an avatar change (for those who have this prob and are reading this: press Ctrl + F5 to clear the browser cache, that does the trick in 99.9 percent of the time ,-)).
- ABC-Tickets: User A reports user B for attacking user C. Now we all know that there's a lot of bickering on the site, welcome to the internet. And guess what: we got the "hide comment" function on the site for some time now, and if users are trolled they can simply hide the comment and move along as if nothing had happened. But instead of following the old wisdom "don't feed the troll" and ignoring the harassing comment (and simply hiding it), either the ones being trolled or their friends start debating with those people and report them immediately. The result: we get tickets from BOTH the people who were harassed AND their buddies, among with a lot of comments to delete. In my opinion, approximately 80 percent of these comments do not even require a report, just ignore and remove them - saves both you and us a lot of headaches. ;-)
- improperly written tickets: see the example above, and copy this pattern to art theft, flooding, prohibited screenshots etc. Do I really need to say more?
-Off-site issues: I know it's extremely disappointing and annoying if you get conned from someone, or if you have a struggle with someone, but please, The site rules say it: what happens outside of FA stays off FA! We simply cannot do anything about an artists that has gotten money from you without delivering the artwork, that's a job for the police. Same goes for off-site harassment: we cannot ban anyone who hasn't done anything wrong on FA yet. If they start going after you on FA, we can kick them out. as for the fraud issue: there's a board where you can report stuff like that, but I'm not gonna name it at this point as I do not want to encourage some idiots to abuse it. I#m certain most of you people know what solution I mean. ;-)

To sum it up: we need the userbase to help us a bit as well, it isn't that hard really:
1) Write proper tickets. Witchiebunny once wrote a very good journal about it, maybe she can post a link later
2) Do not report people who didn't attack you personally. The ONLY exception is if it is someone who trolled other people as well. If you WERE attacked, ignore the post and hide it. If hidin desn't work for some reason, you can send a ticket asking an admin to do it for you (and add the link to the comment! I got a lot of tickets about this topic with no link in it, and had to ask for it and wait for a looooooooooong time until I got an answer - if i got one at all)
3) Do not send us tickets about someone who conned you or harassed you outside of FA. We are NOT able to do anything about it from a legal standpoint, as the commission is a deal done only between you and the artist. On a sidenote, please do not start accusing the artist in a journal or something. Use the board I "mentioned" above. You may, however, write a journal about the fact that you have been had and tell people to have a look at "you know where", nobody can sue you for that (especially not us).
If you follow all these suggestions you will already help us admins a lot, and digging through the tickets will be a lot easier. There are other probs that keep us busy, but those are technical issues I do not want to talk about at this point. Sorry.
Thank you for your time and for reading this.

Regards,
WarMocK
[Fur Affinity Administation]

PS: There will be an update in the AUP soon, and it will contain a new subsection I have been working on for months (shouldn't have taken so long, but I have a lot of work in RL you know). It will deal with questions about stock models, retexturing, and animations. Many thanks to Deskai, 3DiNoZ and Rencat at this point for helping me out with writing them. I wouldn't have been able to finalize them up to the point they are now. Thank you very much, guys, you were a great help!


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## WarMocK (Feb 26, 2011)

Pi said:


> WarMock, that was quite possibly the least useful post in this entire thread.


 I guess I just was beaten. ^^


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## MandertehPander (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm sorry... but how does writing proper tickets help the fact that we have lazy admins to begin with...? You can post all you want about people not writing tickets right and asking them to follow a certain policy when doing so, but fact is people are still going to do it.
Now, if there were.. say, admins that did their job, and didn't wave the "@" around like badge and a life accomplishment, those tickets could be closed sooner and not a problem.

:/


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## Pi (Feb 26, 2011)

Did you not read the _second line_?

Audit your goddamn security and wipe out the inactive admins. And stop trying to silence critical voices.

And while I'm at it:

Simplify your internal communications. Make ONE official source. At current count, you have IRC, Forums, IM, Steam, Twitter, main-site notes, your helpdesk nast, your wiki, and the TT system. That doesn't even begin to count where admins chatter and leak out information at a slow, inconsistent rate (FD_2, lulz, dA chat). Is it any wonder none of you people have any clue what's going on?


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 26, 2011)

Pi said:


> Did you not read the _second line_?
> 
> Audit your goddamn security and wipe out the inactive admins. And stop trying to silence critical voices.


 I'm not trying to silence critical voices, but I didn't think it would matter a lot to have that second line gone, since you said that a billion times already. We all know what your view is on this case.
The post as a whole was just useless enough to warrant a delete, as specified in the deletion reason.


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## WarMocK (Feb 26, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> I'm sorry... but how does writing proper tickets help the fact that we have lazy admins to begin with...? You can post all you want about people not writing tickets right and asking them to follow a certain policy when doing so, but fact is people are still going to do it.
> Now, if there were.. say, admins that did their job, and didn't wave the "@" around like badge and a life accomplishment, those tickets could be closed sooner and not a problem.
> 
> :/


Simple answer: Because it ALSO prevents the admins from becoming demotivated, and eventually stopping to answer TTs at all. 
 If you got a lot of crappy tickets all day which stop you from answering the proper ones you will lose a lot of motivation over time.
There's more than just one way of "gettin rid of lazy admins" you know. ;3


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## Pi (Feb 26, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> I'm not trying to silence critical voices, but I didn't think it would matter a lot to have that second line gone, since you said that a billion times already. We all know what your view is on this case.



Guess what? I'm going to _keep saying it_ until I've seen the slightest _fucking_ bit of change. Your shit has been broken for six years. Get a security audit already, and preferably not one from a 13-year-old kid from the Dominican Republic, or an inflation fetishist.


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## Diocletian (Feb 26, 2011)

WarMocK said:


> it ALSO prevents the admins from becoming demotivated, and eventually stopping to answer TTs at all.
> If you got a lot of crappy tickets all day which stop you from answering the proper ones you will lose a lot of motivation over time.
> There's more than just one way of "gettin rid of lazy admins" you know. ;3


 
You do realize that Glaide and Wicht were being lazy before the trouble ticket system even existed, right?


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## WarMocK (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> You do realize that Glaide and Wicht were being lazy before the trouble ticket system even existed, right?


 Yes, and I do realize that this probably will repeat itself again eventually. I'm trying to plan ahead at this point.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

Glaice, thanks for understanding, just chill out ok?

Pi and Cerebus, Pi, yeah it is a partial problem but even active admins are not following what I posted to them already about account security. I think it's rather hypocritical of us as a site to have it in our knowledge base that users need to be secure about their passwords and not have staff doing the same.

Granted the internet made it so easy to create so many accounts we forget about and don't upkeep, not that it's really the best excuse if at all, but just part of it.

Cerebus, it kinda defeats the purpose of deleting a post then quoting it later. Either it's not to be seen or is. I can understand it being volatile and being warned or sending an infraction, but this way of deleting it didn't seem to work?

Now to Warmock. This is a very long thread, and many people have posted suggestions on how to fix the system. The system is a different issue, while appreciated - you didn't really understand the purpose of this thread. This thread is about inactive admins. Proposing a system for TTs, that's great and all but rather best in another thread.

The reason this went public is 2 reasons.

1. It was already publicly address on livejournal during Dragoneer's Q&A after the hack.
2. I wrote a letter Jan 10th asking this change go through and it did not, it would be public since it was already talked about in public.


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## WarMocK (Feb 26, 2011)

arshesNei, I'm aware of that, and I agree with you that people who drag their feet instead of helping us shouldn't have the "@" in front of their nicknames. And yes, Dragoneer should say "sorry people, but enough is enough!" and ask them to leave on their own (and in honor) or face being kicked out.
The thing is: IF these admins were gone, do you think this won't happen again? A mandatory minimum of solved tickets won't help in the long run, tickets keep on coming in and start piling up until you have to raise the quota to a point where every admin will say "No sorry, hat's too much. I quit!". Then FA will be without admins and a ton of tickets to resolve, and users will start complaining again. Not really something to look foward to if you know you can already prevent it WHILE getting rid of some old junk.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

WarMocK said:


> arshesNei, I'm aware of that, and I agree with you that people who drag their feet instead of helping us shouldn't have the "@" in front of their nicknames. And yes, Dragoneer should say "sorry people, but enough is enough!" and ask them to leave on their own (and in honor) or face being kicked out.
> The thing is: IF these admins were gone, do you think this won't happen again? A mandatory minimum of solved tickets won't help in the long run, tickets keep on coming in and start piling up until you have to raise the quota to a point where every admin will say "No sorry, hat's too much. I quit!". Then FA will be without admins and a ton of tickets to resolve, and users will start complaining again. Not really something to look foward to if you know you can already prevent it WHILE getting rid of some old junk.


 
Considering the quota is not really being enforced in the first place, then we really can't move forward.

The quota is very little and on top of that, we add in more staff to keep the cycle going. I already addressed this. Morale is the biggest motivator. When you have people sitting around acting like Statler and Waldorf from the muppet show of course no one wants to do the work at all. That's why you need to get rid of the people who downgrade morale first, because then it causes motivation to fix the other stuff. It's really that  simple. As long as you have people laying around not doing anything, it gives an excuse for the next person to do the same.


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## WarMocK (Feb 26, 2011)

Can't disagree with that ArshesNei, but I wanted to point out that there are other factors that both also demotivate admins and will be the cause for the next load of "lazy admins".
Since I did say about this topic what I wanted to, I'm going to quit this discussion and leave it up to you. Got quite a few tickets solved today, but there are a lot more to dig through.

</ParticipationInDiscussion>


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

Whether you intended to or not it felt like an insult at my intelligence - as in I didn't think of other factors. I'm pushing through in one organized way (and not forgetting the other factors, but leaving them out until point A is done). That way we can move on to points B, C etc.


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## ShadowWalker (Feb 26, 2011)

He also insulted the intelligence of every user on FA by making a general statement about what trouble tickets look like when the admins get them. If he's so concerned about the content of them, then there should be some sort of guide as to what all a ticket should contain and that should be sent out automatically to each new user when they join. That would cut down on this "trouble" Of his. 

Course, it seems that some admins like to do nothing more than blame the user for the troubles of the system *Shrugs* Oh well, can't kick them all in the butt and tell them to actually use their brains.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2011)

We have the tools actually but either due to negligence or poor upkeep in linking them make it an issue. It's a side issue that for some reason can be easily resolved, but isn't.

IE the knowledge-base, can integrate the Guide to writing TTs. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1833685/ http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1826865/
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1863989/


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## MandertehPander (Feb 26, 2011)

Warmock, if you're that concerned abut morale being dropped because of shotty tickets, then FA NEEDS to code a template that has to be filled out depending on why the ticket is being filed, and unless EVERY field is filled out, the ticket does not go through and the user in question is prompted to fill out ALL fields until the ticket is finally submitted. This way tickets are a bit more organized.

Example, someone files a harassment ticket:
Username(s) of the offender(s):
Links to comments, journals, submissions, and other releveant areas where the harassment is taking place:
Does this directly affect you?: (Yes or no, there is no input for custom answers)
Why do you feel this is harassing in nature? (This is where people would input the problem)
Have you tried hiding the comment and ignoring the problem? (Yes or No)
Has this user circumvented (gone around) a block you have against them on the FURAFFINITY.NET mainsite ONLY? (Yes or no)

Now based on some of the answers, you can have the ticket solved almost instantly by a bot because they put in the wrong answer (In a sense), saying their ticket was denied for the following reason, yadda yadda yadda.

Just my two cents. But this would also require FA had any coding ability.


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## Xenke (Feb 26, 2011)

MandertehPander said:


> Warmock, if you're that concerned abut morale being dropped because of shotty tickets, then FA NEEDS to code a template that has to be filled out depending on why the ticket is being filed, and unless EVERY field is filled out, the ticket does not go through and the user in question is prompted to fill out ALL fields until the ticket is finally submitted. This way tickets are a bit more organized.
> 
> Example, someone files a harassment ticket:
> Username(s) of the offender(s):
> ...


 
I think people just need to be educated on how to actually fill out a ticket.

I would surmise that the fact that someone can actually fill out a ticket and that the person on the other side doesn't get the impression that it was written by a robot is something that reduces the monotony of resolving TTs.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 26, 2011)

In the end, not everyone will be pleased, it's hard to come to a consensus on anything like this.


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## Armaetus (Feb 26, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> You do realize that Glaide and Wicht were being lazy before the trouble ticket system even existed, right?


 
My question could be is  WHY they are still here when they contribute ZERO to help out in any manner..let's not forget how he responded last night with that chat exerpt from DY I posted on the previous page.




Arshes Nei said:


> Glaice, thanks for understanding, just chill out ok?



You are welcome, I was a bit frustrated when I was typing up that post so stuff can slip due to emotions.


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## Aden (Feb 26, 2011)

Xenke said:


> I think people just need to be educated on how to actually fill out a ticket.


 
So why don't we have instructions on how to fill out a trouble ticket _in the fucking trouble ticket page_? :T


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## Xenke (Feb 26, 2011)

Aden said:


> So why don't we have instructions on how to fill out a trouble ticket _in the fucking trouble ticket page_? :T


 
Same reason the AUP page linked to the submission form is outdated.


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## Pi (Feb 27, 2011)

Xenke said:


> Same reason the AUP page linked to the submission form is outdated.


 
Extreme laziness bordering on incompetence?


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 27, 2011)

I think a report button to flag inappropriate art would solve a lot of problems. It would cut down on the amount of TT's in a given day. I know when I see something against AUP I file a TT and I honestly feel bad because I know it bogs the system down, but a man in his bondage fetish fursuit gear sitting in a cage- I feel less bad for reporting that than bogging down the system. A report button would flag the picture for an admin to look at quickly and no TT has to be filed. Maybe that might help moral.


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## Ben (Feb 28, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I think a report button to flag inappropriate art would solve a lot of problems. It would cut down on the amount of TT's in a given day. I know when I see something against AUP I file a TT and I honestly feel bad because I know it bogs the system down, but a man in his bondage fetish fursuit gear sitting in a cage- I feel less bad for reporting that than bogging down the system. A report button would flag the picture for an admin to look at quickly and no TT has to be filed. Maybe that might help moral.


 
Considering profile IDs, a buggy comment system, and the search engine being brought back after several eons are the only features that have been added to FA in the last two years, I wouldn't set your hopes too high on this one. However yes, a report button would be probably the best idea.


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## MandertehPander (Feb 28, 2011)

Not like every OTHER furry website doesn't have a report option.


x:


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I think a report button to flag inappropriate art would solve a lot of problems. It would cut down on the amount of TT's in a given day. I know when I see something against AUP I file a TT and I honestly feel bad because I know it bogs the system down, but a man in his bondage fetish fursuit gear sitting in a cage- I feel less bad for reporting that than bogging down the system. A report button would flag the picture for an admin to look at quickly and no TT has to be filed. Maybe that might help moral.


 
Umm, it would still act like a TT so it would go into queue. So there would be no difference. There isn't anything to be done in that case but an overhaul of the system, however, you want a system where everyone works at doing it. As long as you have the guy around feeling entitled to do nothing (idle admins effect on other staff) and not having other programmers on the site for years...well it developed this system. The system of not getting things done in an efficient manner.


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## Summercat (Feb 28, 2011)

As of this point and time, on this issue:

I don't give a rat's ass (Sorry Ratte).

Bitching like this about this problem isn't going to do anything, and we have other issues to worry about as well, such as our latest security issues, our backlog of trouble tickets (That we're whittle down to about half of what it was when I was hired), the lack of tools and clear communication channels, the AUP in need of clarification and expansion -

Hellfire, tomorrow night I'm opening up a discussion to see what the community thinks the definition of a term is, because I want into an issue and found out that for FA's purposes, I had to default onto the dictionary definition which in this case was fairly obviously not right!

And I'm the one who has been butting heads with Wicht over an embed account and struggling with him on getting actual advice on how to work the TT system.

Are idle admins helping? No. They're not. I, however, do not feel that they neccessarily impede the functioning of this website. Further, out of all the idle admins, the only one I have beef with is Wicht, and that's due to how he decided to handle some situations.

So, at this point and time? I don't care about idle admins. I care about getting the ticket situation squared away, the AUP brought up to date, getting yak and/or net-cat to fix some issues on the site (fixing the AUP link on the 2nd page of the submission process, removing the commission info tab while it's still out of action), and getting three people I know on board to help out with coding crap and learning PHP myself so I can help reform the ticket system.

Oh, and Eevee, if you are reading this, I'm still waiting for that list I asked for, of the security vulnerabilities you found and know of on FA.


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## Diocletian (Feb 28, 2011)

Summercat, you're saying that the idle admins are not an impediment and yet you also say that you are butting heads with the lazy and disruptive Wicht, and such infighting is always a morale-sapping waste of time and energy for the staff. Clearly the lazy admins are an impediment to the functioning of the staff and therefore to the functioning of the site. 

The central overriding problem here is that Sean (Dragoneer) cannot fully deal with the lazy admins himself and will not currently delegate to someone else to let them fix the situation or even communicate with some other members of staff: he has shot at the messengers.

That fundamental issue: being unable or unwilling to deal with certain issues himself, but refusing to delegate and sometimes shooting the messenger(s), affects all the other issues you speak of as well. It is not the sole source of the FAs problems, but it is the biggest problem and it acts as a roadblock to so many others.

It's running to stand still while Sean is not co-operating with the active staff for the good of the community. Things pile up and fester, new staff come on and may be able to patch some things up for a time and then they burn out and things start coming apart at the seams again. This cycle keeps on repeating itself.  It is not going to stop while Sean is not delegating.

I was an administrator on FA for a year, I was an active one was well. I've seen how FA is run, so don't think I'm being unfair or bashing Sean: the fact that he can't or won't handle certain issues himself and isn't delegating effectively is the biggest problem FA faces today and until it is solved  many of the other problems have little hope of a permanent long-term resolution.

This is not bitching, this is a serious discussion of real problems and what can be the most productive way forward. 

I believe that the most productive way forward at this point is for the active FA staff who have the best interest of the community in mind is to be pragmatic: to unite and to speak with one voice to ask Sean to delegate to a competent lead administrator. Likewise, the community that uses this site can also make their voices heard.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2011)

I like how because I focused on this issue became a strawman for other issues are not important. There was never a denial but rather a focused approach one this one so that little by little it all is approached.

The whole problem was that things would start, ppl become apathetic and then use logical fallicies where a whole lot of talking and nothing gets done. Or it is done half assed. So you'll excuse me for at least taking a step on the matter instead of the usual spaghetti on the wall.


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## Summercat (Feb 28, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> I like how because I focused on this issue became a strawman for other issues are not important. There was never a denial but rather a focused approach one this one so that little by little it all is approached.
> 
> The whole problem was that things would start, ppl become apathetic and then use logical fallicies where a whole lot of talking and nothing gets done. Or it is done half assed. So you'll excuse me for at least taking a step on the matter instead of the usual spaghetti on the wall.


 
Too focused. I suggested also working on other problems - it's not a strawman to say that you are only interested in this issue when that's what you said, Arshes.

Meanwhile, we got the AUP link fixed, and the commission information tab removed. Wicht has also been removed from admin status, and we're still looking at what specific to do for long term solutions to the security issues we've been having (Short term solutions already in place).

We have other issues, Arshes, that are just as bad - and possibly worse - as the one you are focused on.


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## Sanyi (Feb 28, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I think a report button to flag inappropriate art would solve a lot of problems. It would cut down on the amount of TT's in a given day. I know when I see something against AUP I file a TT and I honestly feel bad because I know it bogs the system down, but a man in his bondage fetish fursuit gear sitting in a cage- I feel less bad for reporting that than bogging down the system. A report button would flag the picture for an admin to look at quickly and no TT has to be filed. Maybe that might help moral.


Don't quote me on this: I believe there is going to be a report button of sorts when the new UI is finished. Supposedly. It won't help much as far as TTs go, but there will probably be less "OMG DIS GUYZZZ BROKE DEM AUP SHIZZZZ!" type trouble tickets. ^^;;

edit// back to reading through 26 pages of headache.
edit2// screw it, I don't care if my questions have been answered or not. Got to Page 7 >:[

Probably been brought up, but oh well:

1. Is there, anywhere at all, a FULL publicly viewable list of all the current main site admins? There should be one somewhere, even if it's not on the main staff page. I'm not 100% sure how accurate the Forum list is, and the main site list has people missing from it.

2. Has anyone thought about  actually revising the TT page? Currently all you do is select an option and type a bunch of text in which probably doesn't help much in regards to the quality of trouble tickets. I've noticed some admins complaining about how much of a pain it is to understand what people want when filing TTs soooo... maybe it's time for a change?

3. How the bleeding f- did Silver R Wolfe get his admin back? >:[


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## Ben (Feb 28, 2011)

So, with the twelve still active admins listed on the admin page, plus SilverWolfe and Arshes, that means there's only fourteen admins left, 13 if it turns out Silver getting his @ back was a fluke. Is there going to be anything done to fill in this staff shortage, now that half the idle admins have been pruned? I mean, there's a few senior mods here who would fill the gap pretty well (Corto, Mewtwo, M. Le Renard and Qoph come to mind), so at least there's somewhere to look.


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## Diocletian (Feb 28, 2011)

Summercat said:


> got the AUP link fixed, and the commission information tab removed. Wicht has also been removed from admin status


 
So that's 2 very minor issues dealt with and Wicht gone. Those things should and could have been resolved many months and even several years ago. 

Considering the cost in time, effort and the threats from Sean against other members of staff it has taken to get even these small steps, well, one wonders how much of a bargain it was and how much easier it would be with a lead adminstrator/steward.


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## Xenke (Feb 28, 2011)

Ben said:


> So, with the twelve still active admins listed on the admin page, plus SilverWolfe and Arshes, that means there's only fourteen admins left, 13 if it turns out Silver getting his @ back was a fluke. Is there going to be anything done to fill in this staff shortage, now that half the idle admins have been pruned? I mean, there's a few senior mods here who would fill the gap pretty well (Corto, Mewtwo, M. Le Renard and Qoph come to mind), so at least there's somewhere to look.


 


Arshes Nei said:


> Letting them go doesn't make us shorthanded. It makes us work more. We can bring on more when ready, but having them around makes people more frustrated, and less productive.


 
Furthermore, the shortage doesn't really affect anything since those people didn't put in any work anyway.


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## Summercat (Feb 28, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> So that's 2 very minor issues dealt with and Wicht gone. Those things should and could have been resolved many months and even several years ago.
> 
> Considering the cost in time, effort and the threats from Sean against other members of staff it has taken to get even these small steps, well, one wonders how much of a bargain it was and how much easier it would be with a lead adminstrator/steward.


 
While this may be the case, why is it that I appear to be the first person on staff to push for these 'very minor' issues that have been complained about? I'm a fairly new admin, as well. 

I wasn't even aware of the AUP link issue until about 3 days ago. 

I am not denying that what Arshes brought up have been problems. I am denying that they are the ultimate source of other problems - as Arshes insisted once in conversation when this thread was first posted. I suggested several other courses of action that could be taken concurrently, and they were shot down. 

So, ultimately - I'm focusing on what I can fix, and doing what I can, where I can, how I can. Arshes can have her crusade; I want no part of it or anyone to think she is speaking on my behalf.


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## Ben (Feb 28, 2011)

Xenke said:


> Furthermore, the shortage doesn't really affect anything since those people didn't put in any work anyway.



Except the entire problem with the idle admins was that work was piling up, and was not being taken care of due to staff shortage. So really, getting rid of the idle ones was just the first step.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm sorry but no. I kept the topic on this forum pretty much specific and focused. Otherwise you would be lying if you are saying I did not help out at all when there were questions about SL on the AUP. Or did I not add input to the forum rules which to say the mods worked together on? I did put in time on tickets too.


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## Xenke (Feb 28, 2011)

Ben said:


> Except the entire problem with the idle admins was that work was piling up, and was not being taken care of due to staff shortage. So really, getting rid of the idle ones was just the first step.


 
But now work (as in TTs) hasn't been piling up anymore, it's being reduced, even with these admins let go.


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## Diocletian (Feb 28, 2011)

Summercat, Sean's issues with delegation (since there are many things he cannot/will not deal with) is the biggest problem with FA and has been for the past several years. 

The fact that people have to push at all for such minor issues as dead links to be fixed is astounding and ridiculous. The fact that such a tiny thing as updates to the staff page can take months is astonishing. The fact that it has taken weeks of struggle and poisonous threats from Sean to get members of staff who've been inactive for years removed is reprehensible. The fact that he is refusing to communicate with certain members of staff and going out of contact at the weekends is terrible. The fact that many people who want to help the site are turned away and/or ignored is incredible.

Talking about "focusing on what you can fix" is acknowledging that you can only focus on minutiae like dead links, because Sean will not delegate and cannot or will not act on many things himself and the cost of having things like lazy admins dealt with is so great.

There can be no long term solutions without effective delegation so that the most basic things like having active staff and working links can be fixed within hours and days, not months and years and with a cost of staff who burn out, a poisonous atmosphere and at a price to the community who uses this site in terms of lack of functionality, data loss disasters  et al.

To accuse Arshes of engaging in a crusade is shooting the messenger. This thread is currently exposing a deep problem in Furaffinity and instead of engaging with it, you're turning away and focusing on the little things.

But it is not too late: If you care about the community that uses this site, then I urge you to ask Sean to delegate effectively to a good lead admin/steward;, for the staff to speak with one voice in the interests of the community on this matter.


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## Pi (Feb 28, 2011)

Summercat, you write a whole hell of a lot without saying much of anything. In fact, out of everything you wrote, the only thing worth responding to is this, and it's not even worth writing my own words:
[18:57:56] <Eevee> > Bitching like this about this problem isn't going to do anything
[18:58:02] <Eevee> this is the problem
[18:58:04] <Eevee> what WILL do something?
[18:58:11] <Eevee> you?  no, you will just explain why you can't do anything

No, wait, there's also this:


> getting three people I know on board to help out with coding crap and learning PHP myself so I can help reform the ticket system.


You're going to be extremely offended by my saying this, but you have no fucking reason to be touching the ticket system until someone who ISN'T a security-incompetent has a look at it.


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## Corto (Feb 28, 2011)

Xenke said:


> But now work (as in TTs) hasn't been piling up anymore, it's being reduced, even with these admins let go.


 
Tru dat. As far as I understood, the real problem wasn't "WE NEED MORE FIREPOWER", especially since new admins were brought in very recently (Ariel, Nylak and Summer), but rather that it sucked asking the new members to get to work on filling that paperwork while the old guard stood by doing nothing. The new admins would have been quite justified if they had replied "well, no, if they won't work why should I?"

EDIT: I could be wrong, of course, but the image I get from what I hear is that with the new active and motivated admins doing their job, the back catalogue of TTs is being eaten through at a good pace.


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## ArielMT (Feb 28, 2011)

Corto said:


> Tru dat. As far as I understood, the real problem wasn't "WE NEED MORE FIREPOWER", especially since new admins were brought in very recently (Ariel, Nylak and Summer), but rather that it sucked asking the new members to get to work on filling that paperwork while the old guard stood by doing nothing. The new admins would have been quite justified if they had replied "well, no, if they won't work why should I?".



Perhaps.  The temptation to slack becomes a powerfully attractive apparent remedy to burn-out in any endeavor, not just Web site administration.

In my case it's been too much of being left on my own to wing it while trying to learn how best to enforce the site's rules, especially with the tickets that have been allowed to age way too much (the loudest user complaint that stuck with me since registering).  Not always, definitely, and not even often, but still frequently enough.  If the other admins in channel are idling to take care of site matters or RL obligations when I seek answers and second opinions, that's not unreasonable even though it's depressing.

Even if I get an answer as late as six hours after asking, that's fine by me; coming back to find that answer in my log is why I idle instead of signing out.  But if other admins are idling just because or engaging in idle chit-chat, seeing my request for help scroll up off the screen and eventually out of the buffer without an answer is distressing.


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## MandertehPander (Mar 1, 2011)

@glaice

Dunno! Who is it?


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 1, 2011)

I moved the topic of coding to a new thread so this one doesn't get too derailed.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/93544-Topic-Drift-from-TT-Exploits-and-Coding


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## Armaetus (Mar 2, 2011)

Slacking off should not be tolerated, whether they're new admins or the site owner himself. Remember, WE make the community, not the other way around. Allowing things of this magnitude to build up over years is not acceptable and certain individuals are accountable for letting the corrosive effect of their morale to make others feel down and/or do the same thing.

It's not fair to the active staff who sift through these TTs, it just isn't.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 2, 2011)

Well I am happy one admin was removed over the matter who has long since needed to be.  Still, need to make sure things are kept up so it doesn't repeat itself for another 3 years.


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## Armaetus (Mar 2, 2011)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well I am happy one admin was removed over the matter who has long since needed to be.  Still, need to make sure things are kept up so it doesn't repeat itself for another 3 years.


 
Good, I hope noone decides to secretly reinstate him..because that would just piss me off and others as well.


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