# Getting published



## Poetigress (Apr 22, 2008)

Back in the "Where do you find anthro stories to read?" we got on a tangent about publishing and agents, and TakeWalker brought up the question of how one goes about getting an agent.

Bear in mind, this is all academic for me, as I don't have an agent yet (since I don't even have a saleable book yet), but I did some clicking around and found a decent FAQ on Holly Lisle's site with some questions about agents.  Essentially, you sell your book (and your self, as a writer, since agents are looking to represent writers, not just individual books) to an agent, by submitting a query letter, synopsis, sample chapters, and so on (all of which are topics in themselves), and your agent then has the task of selling your book to the publishers.

http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/faqs3.html

Anyone who does have/had an agent, feel free to speak up... Also, I'll keep this thread open for any comments/questions/concerns/whatever about publishing anything, in general.


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## TakeWalker (Apr 22, 2008)

Hoo, clear as a bell, that is! Great link, Poey.


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## M. LeRenard (Apr 22, 2008)

How did you get your short stories published, PT?  Just sent them out to various magazines and got lucky, or what?
Just wondering, because people tend to talk more about book-publishing than anything else, so I don't know a whole lot about submitting to other media.


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## Poetigress (Apr 22, 2008)

Basically, yeah.  You find the publication's submission guidelines and follow them (in terms of whether they want postal or email submissions, what formatting they might want for the text, who to send it to, and that sort of thing), and submit the story to the editor.  

Then you wait and try not to go insane from wondering if they've read it yet, if the long wait means they're considering it more closely, or if it's passed the first round(s) of consideration, or if it just got lost in the mail or eaten by a server somewhere...  And then you get an acceptance and celebrate with premium ice cream, or you get a rejection and drown your sorrows in premium ice cream.  (Well, that's what _I_ do, anyway.)  

As an example, this is the submission guidelines page for _Renard's Menagerie_:

http://www.renardsmenagerie.com/writersguidelines.html

Some gls will be more detailed than others.  Sometimes all you get is an email, a preferred file type, and a pay rate.  Sometimes you get a long dissertation on what the editor likes and doesn't like in fiction.  (One thing RM doesn't include in their gls, that's usually there, is the average response time, which I think runs about six weeks for them.)

Watch rights and payment especially.  If they don't list what rights they take, the assumption is that you're giving them first publication rights (print, electronic, or both).  Some will ask for one-time rights (which means it doesn't have to be the first time it's been in print), and/or exclusive or non-exclusive rights.  Some websites, for example, want exclusive rights for a year or so, and then you can put the story up wherever else you want after that period's up. (I can dig up more articles on this sort of thing if anyone wants it.)

Payment varies widely.  So far, the most I've been paid for a short story is $100 (once from _Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine_ and once from the _Best Women's Erotica 2002_ anthology).  SFWA considers "pro" rates to be $0.02/word (up from 1 cent previously), but it's common to find rates like 1/4 cent/word, or 1/2 cent/word.  Many markets, especially websites, will instead pay a flat fee, usually something like ten or twenty dollars for a story.  And some print zines will just pay you a copy of the magazine (this is the going rate for poetry, incidentally).

Good places to find markets:
http://www.ralan.com (sf/f/h/humor)
http://www.duotrope.com
or any of the market guides published by Writer's Market (Novel & Short Story Writer's Market, Children's Writer's Market, Poet's Market, etc., updated annually)

And of course, many magazines, e-newsletters, and websites for writers will also have sections listing market info and calls for submissions.


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## M. LeRenard (Apr 22, 2008)

Groovy.  You know, I wasn't even thinking about payment for short stories.  I didn't realize most magazines did it in a per word basis.  $20 to $100 doesn't sound so bad, actually.  A nice little supplement to income every now and then.
Merci pour les renseignements.


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## TakeWalker (Apr 22, 2008)

Here's something else I've been wanting to ask... Right of first publication. Does that mean that if you've, say, posted a draft of something in an online art archive like FA, they won't publish it? Or would you simply have to take it down before sending it in?


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## Poetigress (Apr 23, 2008)

Depends on where you're sending it.  So far, some editors within the fandom seem okay with the idea that some stuff may have been online first, since places like FA and Yiffstar are so popular, but they may reasonably ask you to take it down, at least for a certain length of time, so that the free online file doesn't compete with sales of the magazine.  (And they still prefer work that hasn't appeared anywhere else, so if your story is competing with an original story by someone else, and both are equally good, the original one might be accepted instead.)

Outside of the fandom, though, generally anything that's been online and publicly available (i.e., not a password-protected site) is considered published, and you'd have to look for places that accept reprints.

Now, you say it's a draft, so that might be a gray area.  If you've made changes to the text since it appeared online, then that might make a difference.  (There's also a question of whether posting a mature/adult story to FA counts, since you do have to have an account to view adult material, which could make it considered private instead of public.)  At any rate, though, I'd still advise taking the draft down before you shop it around.


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## TakeWalker (Apr 23, 2008)

That's what I figured. Just so long as posted drafts here (face it, nothing I've put up yet has been worthy of publication as-is) won't screw me later.

I really need to work on getting published. :|


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## Poetigress (Apr 23, 2008)

I'm still not 100% sure on the draft issue, so don't take that as gospel...  I'd be willing to risk it for a short story, but to be on the safe side, if you're writing a novel or something and want to eventually get it published in the mainstream, I'd still keep it off FA, and if you want crits on it, either email it to betas privately, or post it to a critique site that's members-only.


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## TakeWalker (Apr 23, 2008)

Hmm, dammit. I may be screwing myself before I know it. I don't know what to think about that.


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## comidacomida (Apr 29, 2008)

I originally got into published works by trial and error.  It took about 6 years to get even a small thing published, but I did so by looking over submission guidelines with many large publishers.  Some/many have open application procedures for anyone who wants to submit a manuscript, but be prepared to wait 8+ months for a reply.... if at all.

Happily published now, I work based on prior sales and successes, and, on lucky months, even get publishers asking for submissions.  Once you establish a name for yourself you have less need of an agent.  As I never had an agent I don't have a lot of information on them first-hand, but several other freelancers I work with do have agents they deal with on a semi-regular basis.

I've commented once or twice in journal form on professional writing.  Anyone interested in doing it as a past time or a hobby should NOT seek an agent... most agents want people who are available for anything at any time and personally I find that kind of writing to be too much of a chore to be enjoyable.  However, if that's the direction you're going, all the better for you!


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## Poetigress (Apr 29, 2008)

I admit I find your post a little confusing.  What kind of writing are you doing?


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## comidacomida (Apr 29, 2008)

I work as a freelance writer in several different areas.  I'm on the freelance writing pool for a newspaper, I've had several short stories and poems published (though poems aren't really an area I focus on).  Song lyrics, novels, and, yes, I admit it, roleplaying games.  Though I'd prefer to focus on novels and novellas, my most recent publications have been contributions to two fairly well known roleplaying companies.

I use several different pen names depending on what projects I'm doing.  I use my real name for newspaper articles and one pen name for short works, another for novels, and one for roleplaying works.  I use another for FA posts (comidacomida), and prefer to remain anonymous otherwise because, as I've stated before, being a writer is about establishing a brand... you get recognized by the work you do.

I find that I can be more successful keeping them separate.  Providing high quality in the area you focus will get you more recognition and attention from publishers than having a plethora of multi-genre publications.  Every time you submit a piece of work you are creating a brand name for yourself.  My other piece of advice for up-and-coming writers is to refine your brand because that is what defines you.


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## JamestheDoc (May 6, 2008)

I've got a few short stories myself, and a completed novel, I've been talking to Alex Vance of Bad Dog Books, and I've got a decent list of other publishers to look at.  I'm planning on having my work catalogued in the Library of Congress for copyrighting.  Besides that, any tips or um... stuff?


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## Poetigress (May 6, 2008)

If you're not self-publishing that novel, there's really no need to have your work registered.  Publishers aren't going to steal your book.  If you are self-publishing, then yes, you'll want an ISBN number, and a barcode, and a Library of Congress card catalog number if you want your book on any library shelves.

Main tip I can give, having briefly been a literary journal editor  -- whether you're submitting short stories to magazine editors or a novel manuscript to publishers, follow the publishers' submission guidelines.  Editors don't write them just for fun.


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## enslavedbydragons (May 7, 2008)

I've been hearing recently that to get a book published, you need to find a lawyer.  Though I'm not done writing my novel, I'm beginning to worry that I might not even be able to find someone who will help me get published...


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## Poetigress (May 8, 2008)

A lawyer?  >0_o<  An agent, probably, not a lawyer -- unless you're writing some kind of tell-all book about someone you know, and you figure they're going to sue you for libel.  

Anyway, IMO, write the book first, then worry about everything else.


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## enslavedbydragons (May 8, 2008)

Alright.


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## LunaticMoth (Jul 13, 2008)

Can this be stickied? (Am I allowed to request that?)


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## ScottyDM (Jul 14, 2008)

TakeWalker said:


> Here's something else I've been wanting to ask... Right of first publication. Does that mean that if you've, say, posted a draft of something in an online art archive like FA, they won't publish it? Or would you simply have to take it down before sending it in?





Poetigress said:


> Depends on where you're sending it....
> 
> Outside of the fandom, though, generally anything that's been online and publicly available (i.e., not a password-protected site) is considered published, and you'd have to look for places that accept reprints.
> 
> Now, you say it's a draft, so that might be a gray area....


That was the main reason why I went to a login system to view the stories in the contest. Having a login system lets me add a few features to the site, but the real reason was so stuff could later be sold by its author.

Scotty


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## Xioneer (Jul 16, 2008)

What about shorts and scripts for print comics? Anyone done that at all? Ghosting, co-writing or representing yourself...


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## GraemeLion (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Ralan.. I don't think anyone else here mentioned it.

www.ralan.com


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## Poetigress (Sep 29, 2008)

From post #4...



> Good places to find markets:
> http://www.ralan.com (sf/f/h/humor)
> http://www.duotrope.com
> or any of the market guides published by Writer's Market (Novel & Short Story Writer's Market, Children's Writer's Market, Poet's Market, etc., updated annually)
> ...


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## GraemeLion (Sep 29, 2008)

Wow. 

How'd I miss those.  *laughs*

Sorry about that.


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## Poetigress (Sep 29, 2008)

No problem.  It got kind of buried back there.  >^_^<


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## Mitzeh (Oct 10, 2008)

has anyone tried lulu.com? 
(self publishing site which does print on demand and also offers distribution packages) as far as i could tell you format your work to thier requirements upload or convert to pdf (they will convert your non pdfs) and then you basically upload a cover and put it up for sale and when its ordered the producton cost is taken out of the price and you get 80% of the profit (could only be 4 bucks or so depending on the price).

I thought it was pretty cool but im still wondering if anyone has tried them out and has any reviews on their service.

you can basically do anything short of pornography (not sure it thats litriture or visual though) so yeahh thinking of creating some artbooks through them( non distribution so it'll only be avaliable to buy through thier site)


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## GraemeLion (Oct 10, 2008)

LULU is very good quality, very well done.  I have a few books that friends have written printed through them.

But.. something to note about Lulu.. if you go through them, you won't be able to sell to conventional publishers, (more than likely), and you'll have to do all  the marketing yourself.

But the quality IS good.  The service is good.


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## Mitzeh (Oct 10, 2008)

redcard said:


> LULU is very good quality, very well done.  I have a few books that friends have written printed through them.
> 
> But.. something to note about Lulu.. if you go through them, you won't be able to sell to conventional publishers, (more than likely), and you'll have to do all  the marketing yourself.
> 
> But the quality IS good.  The service is good.




from wat ive read they only restrict you if you have purchased a distribution package from them (as it includes an isbn being assigned to you which means they become the "publish house" for your book) if you choose not to use that service i belive you are still free to search for publishers on your own. and yes you have to do marketing on your own if you don't use the distribution service as the only place it'll be sold is on lulu.com 

(i hope i understood it right hahahaha)


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## Poetigress (Oct 10, 2008)

redcard said:


> But.. something to note about Lulu.. if you go through them, you won't be able to sell to conventional publishers, (more than likely)



Lulu is self-publishing.  There's nothing wrong with that -- I'm expecting to at least put out a poetry collection through them next year, if not another project or two -- but yeah, if you print and sell your book through them, you wouldn't be able to turn around and sell it to a conventional publisher.  There are a few self-publishing success stories, but most of those were nonfiction/gift-type books that had already sold tons before the big publisher took note and picked them up as reprints.

Self-publishing is great for works that you just want to sell to friends, family, or a relatively small audience like the fandom.  

I haven't worked with Lulu yet, so I can't speak to quality of product or service, but based on what I've read in their FAQs and so on, I wouldn't bother paying for their distribution packages unless you're really serious about selling and marketing your book outside of a small circle.  (And if you think your book has that much selling potential, you'd be better off trying to get your book accepted by traditional publishers anyway.)

*Edited to add:*  Lulu's _contract_ might not restrict you from looking for other publishers, but conventional publishers aren't going to be interested in books that have already been published this way.  (I mean, they're not interested in works that have already appeared online, for the same reason -- they've already been published.)  As I said above, it's happened in a few cases, but it's rare.


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## GraemeLion (Oct 10, 2008)

Mitzeh said:


> from wat ive read they only restrict you if you have purchased a distribution package from them (as it includes an isbn being assigned to you which means they become the "publish house" for your book) if you choose not to use that service i belive you are still free to search for publishers on your own. and yes you have to do marketing on your own if you don't use the distribution service as the only place it'll be sold is on lulu.com
> 
> (i hope i understood it right hahahaha)



The problem isn't rights.. the problem is that most traditional publishing houses won't do "reprints" of a novel that is currently "in print."  As Lulu is POD, and you retain full rights, you basically do not ever leave "in print" status.  

So that's why.. it's not about the ISBN.. it's about the book already having been published.

Myself, I write for fun, and if I make it, I make it.. so my stuff goes under CC and is going to be available on line and through Lulu.. but if you're wanting to take a book national, I'd advise going through traditional.


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## Mitzeh (Oct 10, 2008)

redcard said:


> The problem isn't rights.. the problem is that most traditional publishing houses won't do "reprints" of a novel that is currently "in print."  As Lulu is POD, and you retain full rights, you basically do not ever leave "in print" status.
> 
> So that's why.. it's not about the ISBN.. it's about the book already having been published.
> 
> Myself, I write for fun, and if I make it, I make it.. so my stuff goes under CC and is going to be available on line and through Lulu.. but if you're wanting to take a book national, I'd advise going through traditional.




ahh k well for now im just going to use lulu for artbooks/picture books or somthing and portfolios ahahahaha


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## Jax (Nov 9, 2008)

So if I micro print, stay indie...then I've screwed the pooch commercially. Even if I don't purchase an ISBN number, it would still be considered published and therefore unmarketable. But, loving my work but having no self confidence I can still make money one copy at a time. So you are saying this is going to hurt when I shoot myself in the foot! There goes another toe.


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## Poetigress (Nov 9, 2008)

Jax said:


> So if I micro print, stay indie...then I've screwed the pooch commercially. Even if I don't purchase an ISBN number, it would still be considered published and therefore unmarketable.



Yep.  But some authors prefer marketing their stuff directly to the readers -- it just takes a lot of work in terms of marketing and networking and getting your name out there.

It all depends on your goals.  If your goal is just to have the accomplishment of having written a book and having it available in a nice package for your friends and family to enjoy, then self-publishing is definitely the way to go.  If you're marketing to a niche audience (like the furry fandom, or WWII enthusiasts, or quilters, or what have you) and don't mind doing the extra work to sell your book, it's a decent option.  If you're aiming for a wider audience, though, stay out of self-publishing and go the traditional route of submitting to editors and/or agents.  You're still unlikely to wind up rich or famous from going the traditional route, but the self-publishing success stories (in terms of having a big publisher pick up your self-published book) are very few and far between.


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## ScottyDM (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm not a fan of self-publishing fiction because fiction is the most challenging form of writing that exists, and it's almost impossible to self-judge if your story is worthwhile. Which leads to the primary reason almost no one ever sells a novel after it's been through self-publishing--there's a 99% chance it's no better than 99% of the stuff in the editor's slush pile.

It's my understanding that if you do have that exceptional novel, and your self-publishing efforts have been strictly paper and ink, then a traditional publisher would consider picking it up. They know how many you've sold--because your POD service will tell them, with your permission--and they can guess how many more they can sell. But most publishers don't understand the Internet or how electronic files work. They see industry consortiums like the RIAA and MPAA and their fight against Internet piracy and that scares them. So if you've openly posted your book to the Internet, it'll be almost impossible to sell a traditional publisher the manuscript.

You need an ISBN if you want anyone other than yourself to sell the book--direct sales through your POD service excepted. It's the bar code on the back cover. No bar code, no retail sales.

If you want to get into the normal book distribution channel, but not put out $10,000+ up front for production costs, Lightning Source may be your best bet. They are a subsidiary of Ingram, which is THE wholesaler in North America for books. Thus, you give them your files and when a store orders copies from Ingram, LS prints them and there's only one shipping step (books are heavy). They also handle returns and some of the other messy details of the traditional channel. They ship the books then wait three or four months and if the books don't come back, they send you your profit. BTW, three or four months is pretty quick! The standard book distribution channel is a brutal place. And if you want to be in the channel, you'll probably have to spend either a lot of money or a lot of time on promotion (both is better). Stores don't order books out of Ingram's catalog just because they're in there.

If you only care to sell through Amazon you could use their subsidiary BookSurge. However, they'll want to sell you a promotions package and charge you $1,000 or more for something that could very well be worth less than $100. Some of that stuff is hard to measure, but one thing that might work is advertising your book on another book's page (you know the part where it says, "Buy ___ when you buy this book and save $6.00!" Or the other part that says, "If this book looked interesting to you, you might want to consider these." You can spend a lot of money with BookSurge and Amazon.

Book stores don't buy books from Amazon, and if Amazon figures out your book is POD they'll not want it from Ingram, but insist you use BookSurge. And neither book stores or Amazon will buy from LuLu or any of the other "names" in the self-publishing business.

POD does have a place in publishing, and the best place for it is as close to the retail sale as possible. Ideally book stores should get POD setups (but they can easily run over $100,000). If a successful publisher only gets 20 cents on the dollar (before they split it with the author) then might as well let the book stores send the publisher the $0.20 directly. Plus it avoids the messy business of returns (you print it, you bought it). Unfortunately, this isn't the case yet.

In the channel, Lightning source is one step removed from the retail sale. At Amazon BookSurge is at the point of sale. And for direct Internet sales not through Amazon, someone like LuLu is at the point of sale.

Before you even talk to any of these companies, or any other company in the self-publishing or POD production business, Google! Try company name (in quotes if more than one word) and maybe the word "fraud" or "complaint". There's one company out there that has a single forum thread with over 30,000 postings, and over 90% of those are not very flattering. But then read intelligently too. If the bulk of the complaints are something like: "My Legolas/vampire/Buffy/HP/slash/crossover/fan-fic only sold 2 copies in the past 6 months and I blame my crappy publisher... waaaah!" It's probably not the publisher's fault.

Scotty


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## GraemeLion (Nov 13, 2008)

Scotty is right on this.  All of it.

Something to add though is this.  If you are planning on selling your books at Furry cons, and Furry cons ONLY.. you A) Do not need an ISBN, and B) can get products at cost (well, near enough) from the major PODs.  This would be upfront payment to them.  But at no time, none at all, should you in the modern era PAY for the PRIVILEGE of having your book published.    You might pay for each copy.  But you should never have to pay to get access.  Stay far away from companies that charge you "editing fees" and "publishing fees."   Don't use PublishAmerica.    Read Writer Beware.. (Just google it, it'll show up)


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## ScottyDM (Nov 15, 2008)

I've found this online gem for self publishers/small presses: Para Publishing, run by Dan Poynter. This site was recommended as the best source on self publishing by Dick Lutz, who has his own book on self publishing.

Dan takes the approach that you want to sell a lot of copies, and you want to make a profit. He say's there's no such thing as starting out slow. He has a few free PDF files on his site, and this one lays out what's necessary to sell into the channel--which is a bit frightening.

He also warns against vanity publishing, but doesn't offer a good, up-to-date definition.

Scotty


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## ScottyDM (Nov 15, 2008)

> *Vanity Publisher:*
> 
> One who misleads an author into thinking that their book will sell a lot of copies or make the author a lot of money, when the truth is the publisher has no intention of doing promotion or anything else that might lead to sales. Vanity publishers either make their money on the up-front fees they get from the author, or on a grossly inflated wholesale price they get from the author. In some cases a vanity publisher might try to lock up the book with a long contract in the off chance a real publisher will want to pick it up before the contract expires. Vanity publishers will publish any manuscript and they almost never look at them. The result is that vanity publishers have a bad rep in the industry and wholesalers, retail outlets, book reviewers, and libraries have a standing policy to never buy or review a book from them.



I think this definition should about cover it. But you'll find there is a lot of overlap between vanity publishers and the way some POD services treat authors. E.g. BookSurge has been known to imply that if you give them a little bit of money ($500 to $1000 isn't enough for proper promotion), they will ensure your book becomes wildly successful. Some feel LuLu is a vanity publisher, but I don't know that they've ever lied to anyone.

Scotty


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## katleeh (Feb 22, 2009)

Hello, all... 

Okay, I've looked at Lulu.com myself and I'm also wondering about it. Problem is, can you really find a way to print with a "Big House" printing firm when you print furry stories?

For instance, I do oddball stories dealin with shemales (adult and non-adult stories), alternate universes, babyfurs (adults and such mostly, AR used sparingly), inflation, etc, etc... lots of different thins. What are the odds of being able to get published there? So, lulu.com for some fo those...

How would you go about getting adult/erotic/pornographic stories published?

- KLH Felicate


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## VÃ¶lf (Feb 22, 2009)

OK. I got a whole freakin' novel on my block. It's coming along nicely. I've read up a bit on publishing, and it seems like a good bet is NOT using an agent. They take a big chunk of your profits, which considering the expected money anyone could make on a limited market such as this one. What's more, I have a war story; graphic violence, sex, vulgarity, the whole 9 yards. Consider your friends of your friends and see if they know anybody in the biz. That's what I'm doing. You know a publisher or editor you're way more likely to get in big with publishing, and probably sales as well.


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## VÃ¶lf (Feb 22, 2009)

No way I'm self publishing unless no one wants the book. All the budget damage gets settled on one person. Guess who? that aside, a convincing story and colorful characters that looks like it'd sell attracts business people. There's a way to do it, you just got to do your homework


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## GraemeLion (Feb 22, 2009)

Volf said:


> OK. I got a whole freakin' novel on my block. It's coming along nicely. I've read up a bit on publishing, and it seems like a good bet is NOT using an agent. They take a big chunk of your profits, which considering the expected money anyone could make on a limited market such as this one. What's more, I have a war story; graphic violence, sex, vulgarity, the whole 9 yards. Consider your friends of your friends and see if they know anybody in the biz. That's what I'm doing. You know a publisher or editor you're way more likely to get in big with publishing, and probably sales as well.



Actually, unless you have a close friend who personally works as a buyer in a publishing house, you're not going to get into traditional without an agent.

The agents are the gatekeepers.   Most publishing houses will NOT deal with authors until after the contract is signed.  They'll only work with agents.

And as for "going with an agent", you don't just pick an agent.  You have to submit stuff, and an agent will choose to represent YOU.   But agents are the gatekeepers.  They're the way in to traditional.


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## Shouden (Feb 22, 2009)

Volf said:


> OK. I got a whole freakin' novel on my block. It's coming along nicely. I've read up a bit on publishing, and it seems like a good bet is NOT using an agent. They take a big chunk of your profits, which considering the expected money anyone could make on a limited market such as this one. What's more, I have a war story; graphic violence, sex, vulgarity, the whole 9 yards. Consider your friends of your friends and see if they know anybody in the biz. That's what I'm doing. You know a publisher or editor you're way more likely to get in big with publishing, and probably sales as well.



Yeah, I'm writing a hero trilogy with the whole nine yards or vulgarness in it. I'll sign an agent or something when I've done all my editing and am ready to have it published. I'll probably try a comic place or something.


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## VÃ¶lf (Feb 22, 2009)

Well, in theory, what if you _could _send an editor a book and get them to buy into the idea? Unlikely, but there's still that small chance you could get lucky with a publisher if the editor has your back.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 22, 2009)

Volf said:


> Well, in theory, what if you _could _send an editor a book and get them to buy into the idea? Unlikely, but there's still that small chance you could get lucky with a publisher if the editor has your back.



Yes, but do you realize how few editors there are that can pull the trigger.. and how many writers there are that think they can get in through the VERY small "side door?" 

It's not that easy.  I'd say the chance of you getting in this way is about the same as matching four or five numbers in the powerball.


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## VÃ¶lf (Feb 24, 2009)

Yeah. Lol, thankfully I know A LOT of people.


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## greymist (May 22, 2009)

I am currently waiting on a response to a traditional publisher for my book.  I will say this after a dozen rejections from agents, and 2 publisher rejections.  The writing portion is by far the easiest part of wiring a book.  

From my research, you can have the best manuscript out there, but if you have a poor query letter, then it is likely to be trashed.

Just my 2 cents.

Grey


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## Shinzuu_Katame (Oct 13, 2009)

JamestheDoc said:


> I've got a few short stories myself, and a completed novel, I've been talking to Alex Vance of Bad Dog Books, and I've got a decent list of other publishers to look at.  I'm planning on having my work catalogued in the Library of Congress for copyrighting.  Besides that, any tips or um... stuff?




delrey is pretty open about such writings


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## yiffytimesnews (Oct 19, 2009)

The best and without cheapest way to get published is check out www.lulu.com


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## Scarborough (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah, that's the cheapest/easiest way to get published, but certainly not the best.

Lulu does like zero promotion for you, so good luck getting anybody outside your circle of friends/family to read your stuff. Unless you're just looking for a bound manuscript of your series of short stories/poetry/novel.

I'd go to Duotrope's. They basically have thousands of markets listed for various specialties (short stories, novellas, poetry, novels, etc.) for a variety of genres (sci-fi, mystery, "literary"). And most of these markets promote themselves somehow, so you don't have to do the dirty work.


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## Poetigress (Oct 19, 2009)

*nods* Lulu was discussed pretty thoroughly earlier in this same thread. Self-publishing is a good option if you have a very limited audience (that is, as you say, if you're publishing mostly for family, friends, and so on, or if your audience is going to be limited more or less to the furry fandom). 

Duotrope is excellent for finding markets. I've only used them for short stories, so I don't know how their listings are for book publishers. I also recommend Ralan.com if you're writing science fiction or fantasy.

Keep in mind, though, that even if you do hook a publisher for a novel, you're still going to have to do a good amount of your own marketing. Most publishers don't do nearly as much as they used to for their authors in terms of promotion, so assuming you're not their biggest name, you'll still have to get out there and do your own work.


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## JMAA (Oct 19, 2009)

Does it apply to comics as well? I'm interested in this knowledge.


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## Poetigress (Oct 19, 2009)

*shrug* No idea on that here. I've never done any research on publishing comics.


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## Shouden (Oct 19, 2009)

comics are a little harder to publish, I would say. It's not likely that you'll publish one unless one of the publishers likes it, and It would seem to me that a comic publisher might be a little more picky than a book publisher.

Plus, a lot that I've looked at require either a script or the full comic and comic scripts are harder to write as there are several different ways to do it, and different comic publishers require different ways of publishing. Your best bet would be to do some research.


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## Scarborough (Oct 19, 2009)

JMAA said:


> Does it apply to comics as well? I'm interested in this knowledge.


I've never done comics before, but I'm guessing you could go to a local newspaper and see what they think about publishing your strips. Which, comic strips are usually focused on four panels of humor, so I don't know if that would line up with whatever you have in mind.

Duotrope's has a few markets that accept comics. I've never used them for comics, nor talked to anybody who has, but I guess it would be worth a shot.

Here's a google search.


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## darkfox118 (Oct 20, 2009)

ugh.. I read every word in this thread..

now i'm depressed lol. 

I want to make sure I understand. I'm not honesrly certain that my work is suitable for publishing at all.. (I'm actually seeking critiques of my latest story in the writers bloc critique section in PM form just to see where I stand and what changes need to be made..) but I'd just like something small.. 

I dont really have a "friends/family" need on this one beacuse well.. this whole fandom thing is not something they do know/will know about. 

I dont honestly care if I make a ton of money (or even a modest amount of money) on a book so long as it cuts my loses and I at least break even.. 

Rght now the only thing I do is put stuff on FA.. seems to be a pretty limited audience as FA seems more.. visually oriented. 

question, if one were to use self publishing (lulu for example) how would one go about doing this advertising? Buying banners or posters or something? taking copies of it to book stores? Doing like random wanna-be rappers and stopping people in the mall parking lot? "Yo man check this out." (this appened to me.. when 4 dudes want you to get in the back of their cadillac to "hear it bump" you say NO THANKS!) 

doing my own marketing is feasible I suppose, but i'm not exactly a con-goer or a suiter or anything like that.. so I dont know how that'd work.

my last story was painfully furry.. no doubt about that.. but most of my work is not furry directly.. its more.. human minds in animal bodies kind of things.. that can probably pass off as general scifi/fiction..


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## GraemeLion (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, if you are going to be writing furry things, and you are going to self-publish ,that means you're going to be self marketing.

You'll need to start attending conventions.  You'll need to potentially hook up with other authors and artists and start cross promotion.  You'll obviously need to make a website.    

You can't take copies to book stores, unless they'll have you.  Most of the biggies don't have people who can make that decision in the store.  The independent booksellers may.   Same thing goes with libraries.

You probably won't break even for a good while, if you buy stock to take to conventions.  You may.  But don't count on it.  It's a visually oriented fandom.


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## darkfox118 (Oct 20, 2009)

yea.. certainly seems to be.

Although I'd say most of my work is furry.. it could possibly appeal to other markets. I have only recently written stories that involve anthros at all. Most of them deal with humans in various situations of becoming animals. furry sure.. but only furry? I'm not certain.. 

a website is not a problem.. but conventions are. 

perhaps I should just stick to feedback based stuff and just submit my work to other furry related sites.. 

I dont really think i'm worth reading anyway tbh lol.. but over the years I've learned to ignore my self esteem. Writing is something I like.. and recognition is something i like more lol. 

its unfortunate that people are so visual.. the mind is a powerful thing.. and I love getting swallowed by a good text.


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## JMAA (Oct 21, 2009)

Seeing that I'm making my comic in spanish, I might send when done the comic to Norma Editorial. They seem to accept new artists as long as they are of certain quality.
I'll try my best on my comic and... well,... wish me luck.


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## Scarborough (Oct 21, 2009)

Good luck! ^ ^


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## VÃ¶lf (Oct 28, 2009)

Getting published is unfathomably hard. I wrote a book that i actually started before I knew about the fandom at all, intending to market it for the general public. Of course there's so much work involved, with all the edits...

I think I can empathize with you darkfox. I think I know the kind of thing you're writing. 

But then again I looked at past awards for "best furry" things... movie, novel, comic, etc. I forget the names of the books, but it seemed that the best furry books out there were gay porno. Now I have no idea whether that was self-published or taken to a full-fledged publisher, but would doubt it's the latter. 

Still, porn writing is more about being horny, not about real quality writing or detailed plot or imagery outside of sexual parts.


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## Poetigress (Oct 29, 2009)

VÃ¶lf said:


> But then again I looked at past awards for "best furry" things... movie, novel, comic, etc. I forget the names of the books, but it seemed that the best furry books out there were gay porno. Now I have no idea whether that was self-published or taken to a full-fledged publisher, but would doubt it's the latter.



If you're talking about the Ursa Major Awards, they're kind of a joke IMO, unless they ever break down and actually separate adult works from general-audience to give the G/PG stuff a better chance of actually getting nominated, let alone winning. And likely some of those books were self-published and others were done through the fandom's few publishers (Kyell Gold's books by Sofawolf Press, to give the most obvious example). In short, the Ursas make no apologies for being entirely based on popular vote, and it's worth remembering that in the fandom and outside of it, "most popular" and "best" are unfortunately not always the same thing.



> Still, porn writing is more about being horny, not about real quality writing or detailed plot or imagery outside of sexual parts.



Well, a lot of it is that way, yes, because it's simply badly written. We had a discussion about this in another thread a few months ago. I write erotica (or have, at least; I haven't written any since the story for "X" about a year ago now), and I include -- or try to -- all the non-horny stuff you're talking about above. It is possible to write a quality story that includes explicit sexual content. (Even so, I do wish that adult works weren't able to take over things like the Ursa Majors, which is one reason I have now decided not to participate in those awards to any degree until or unless rule changes are made.)


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## GraemeLion (Oct 29, 2009)

The thing to note about the Ursa Major Awards is that they aren't some big overreaching furry awards.  They're a small group of people picking a winner from a small number of votes.

It is surprising how few votes it really takes to win an Ursa Major award.  I could get a bunch of my friends together on a non-furry board and we could take over an award.

I also think it's a sham that they include non-furry things.  For example, I think a Redwall book was nominated once.  Brian Jacques knows of and does not care for furries. He's not "one of us."  If it really is about works for the fandom, it needs to be concerned primarily with works of the fandom.  

Poet, you're respected and well liked.. have you given thought to heading up your own awards or organizing such a beast?


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## Poetigress (Oct 29, 2009)

GraemeLion said:


> I also think it's a sham that they include non-furry things.  For example, I think a Redwall book was nominated once.  Brian Jacques knows of and does not care for furries. He's not "one of us."  If it really is about works for the fandom, it needs to be concerned primarily with works of the fandom.



*nods* I've come to agree with that, but I can also see a potential gray area. For example, Clare Bell's Named series (beginning with Ratha's Creature) was written without any knowledge of the fandom (I can't remember the exact year that was published, but the fandom may have barely existed at the time), and I don't know that she would consider herself furry. On the other hand, she is aware of the fandom now and seems accepting of it, as she was a guest of honor at Further Confusion and has an FA account (rathacat). And, of course, her novels certainly involve anthropomorphic characters. So it becomes a question of whether the awards are meant to recognize good anthro work, regardless of source, or strictly fan-based creations. I could absolutely support restricting things to the latter, but I think the line would be drawn not at whether an author or creator is "one of us," but whether a work is published within the fandom (including self-published works), versus published by a mainstream publisher (or in the case of movies and such, a mainstream company).



> Poet, you're respected and well liked.. have you given thought to heading up your own awards or organizing such a beast?



Short answer: I tried.

Long answer: Several months ago, I contacted a number of fairly well-known writers in the fandom, to see if there was interest in forming a committee-based award for furry literature. This was meant to be a complement to the Ursas -- since the Ursas go by popular vote, I wanted to create something that would not be done by popular vote and would instead be given out by a dozen or so (around 25 maximum, if I remember correctly) of the fandom's most respected writers. 

The responses I received were lukewarm at best ("it's an interesting idea, but"). Most of the concern boiled down to "there'd be too much potential drama," and there was also concern (legitimate, but I think overstated) that the awards would be seen as incestuous, with committee members potentially awarding things often within their own ranks. While there was some interest, I didn't get any sense of enthusiasm about the idea, and frankly, I was unwilling to invest the time and effort it would take to organize something like that without feeling some real enthusiasm and drive from the people who would need to be involved.

I haven't given up on the concept, and if someone else (or several someones) wanted to take it upon themselves to create an alternative to the Ursas that would be structured differently, I would be very happy to support that effort in any way I could, including providing notes on the categories and structure that I had envisioned if that would help. But honestly, at this point, I just don't feel I have the time, energy, and/or finances to personally head something like that up.

I'm flattered, though.


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## GraemeLion (Oct 30, 2009)

How about a mixture?

The SFWA requires you to have certain credentials to become a member.  Once a member, they prepare the shortlist for the Nebula Awards.

Maybe your committee could draft rules of membership, then advertise as the "Furry Writers Committee WorldWide" or something, then get the membership in, make shortlists, and then open that to voting. 

That way, it's still popular vote, but you get to say who's involved.


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## Atrak (Oct 30, 2009)

darkfox118 said:


> ugh.. I read every word in this thread..
> 
> now i'm depressed lol.
> 
> ...



You try MochiAds? You'd have to pay them, of course, but they are a major advertising company in the flash gaming world. Probably most flash animators and game-makers make money from MochiAds. It allows them to make money off their games while keeping them free. MochiAds are everywhere flash games are, so it'd be a good bet for advertising, at least for the online world. Probably better for comics than books, though  .


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## VÃ¶lf (Oct 30, 2009)

Lots of stuff to respond to so I won't quote.

1st: yeah, lol, it was the Ursa I was thinking of.

Next... well, idk. I'm not sure if I call a good storyline erotica unless the sexual encounters get to be pretty prominent... idk, maybe like, 4+? 3 can be a lot, depending. I've written full stories that throw in sex scenes myself, and I'm pretty sure that's different from what you're talking about, but again, idk really. so meh, w/e.

I do think you'd be a great candidate to make that other award category, Poet. I do see potential for the awards to be biased though, that's true. And of course, with the drama, it's FA. Just look at the rant forum  it's crazy

I'd take up the idea, but I'm a lightweight as far as writer respectability goes, here. We'd need several people to work on it, as you hinted towards. I might like to talk about those category ideas of yours sometime.

And for the record, I think Brian Jaques is a bit of a piss-pot, too.


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## GraemeLion (Oct 31, 2009)

VÃ¶lf said:


> And for the record, I think Brian Jaques is a bit of a piss-pot, too.



I think finding out that people are jacking off to and making porn of characters you made for children can be quite a disturbing revelation for some people.  I don't blame him for not being a fan of furry after watching members of it rape their characters.


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## VÃ¶lf (Oct 31, 2009)

GraemeLion said:


> I think finding out that people are jacking off to and making porn of characters you made for children can be quite a disturbing revelation for some people.  I don't blame him for not being a fan of furry after watching members of it rape their characters.



O.O didn't know that either. I suppose I spoke too soon then?

Bah, w/e. He wrote what he wrote, and he got published. That's the main thing; getting published.


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## Poetigress (Nov 1, 2009)

GraemeLion said:


> I think finding out that people are jacking off to and making porn of characters you made for children can be quite a disturbing revelation for some people.  I don't blame him for not being a fan of furry after watching members of it rape their characters.



Apparently he's not on the Internet all that much, then. I've run across porn of pretty much every children's character I can think of offhand (and not all of that on FA or connected with furry). It's stupid, but... *shrug*

Personally, I had a lot more respect for Jacques as a writer before he began essentially writing the same book twenty times over, while keeping everything ludicrously black and white in terms of the characters. I think he massively underestimates his young readers' capacity to deal with shades of gray.


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## M. LeRenard (Nov 1, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> Personally, I had a lot more respect for Jacques as a writer before he began essentially writing the same book twenty times over, while keeping everything ludicrously black and white in terms of the characters. I think he massively underestimates his young readers' capacity to deal with shades of gray.


That's my problem with him.  One of these days I'm going to force myself to read the original Redwall books, but my first experience with this guy (Lord Brocktree) really turned me off from his writings.  Man was that one... so lame.  Just awful.


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## TakeWalker (Nov 1, 2009)

Poetigress said:


> Personally, I had a lot more respect for Jacques as a writer before he began essentially writing the same book twenty times over, while keeping everything ludicrously black and white in terms of the characters. I think he massively underestimates his young readers' capacity to deal with shades of gray.



This. I got bored of his books after the hundredth or so. TOOK A WHILE, but hey. :V

Not to mention, those few times when he had the chance to really break out and do something amazing -- i.e. Outcast and Taggerung -- he didn't. :|


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## Threetails (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks for posting this, I'm in that process myself, though I'd like to add a little bit of advice that gets overlooked often, and one that I just recently discovered.

Standard manuscript formatting.  If you don't use it, most agents/publishers/whatever won't even look at your work.

It varies slightly so you'll want to look it up for yourself (Google is your friend as always), but the basic gist of it is:

*Courier font, 12pt.
*double spacing between lines
*All italic or bold fonts are repliced with underlines.
*All apostrophes and quotation marks must be the "straight up and down" variety and not the directionally oriented variety most word processors default to.

Hope this helps!


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## Scarborough (Nov 2, 2009)

Oooh, good point, Threetails.

To add to the standard manuscript formatting, headers should be the same Courier 12 pt., should include the title of the work, the author's name, and the page number, and I believe in that order, separated by slashes. E.g., The Greatest Work Ever/Prolific Genius/9


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## GraemeLion (Nov 3, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> That's my problem with him.  One of these days I'm going to force myself to read the original Redwall books, but my first experience with this guy (Lord Brocktree) really turned me off from his writings.  Man was that one... so lame.  Just awful.



The original redwall books are no different.


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## Poetigress (Nov 3, 2009)

GraemeLion said:


> The original redwall books are no different.



I think some of the earlier ones were better, but that may just be because the formula hadn't worn thin yet for me. The first Redwall book I read was Martin the Warrior, and I enjoyed it thoroughly and sought out the earlier ones. The last one I bought was Triss. I read the next couple from the library, and then stopped bothering. *shrug*

Picking up the other tangents... 



> How about a mixture?
> 
> The SFWA requires you to have certain credentials to become a member. Once a member, they prepare the shortlist for the Nebula Awards.
> 
> Maybe your committee could draft rules of membership, then advertise as the "Furry Writers Committee WorldWide" or something, then get the membership in, make shortlists, and then open that to voting.



I think that could be a decent way to handle it. The credentials could be similar to SFWA, though they'd have to be modified to be appropriate -- perhaps requiring 5 short story publications in edited markets (that is, no showcase sites like FA), with only 3 of those publications allowed to be in furry markets, or something to that effect. 

Novels might be more of a problem, though -- as of right now, I'm aware of only two furry publishers (Sofawolf Press and Bad Dog Books) that are actually true publishers instead of PODs or other forms of self or subsidy publishing (and even then, Sofawolf Press isn't open to submissions until they've worked with a writer fairly extensively, so that narrows their field as well). And although I'm just speculating here, I would think it'd be more difficult to sell the typical furry novel to a mainstream publisher than to sell a furry short story to a magazine. So credentials would likely be easier to attain for short story writers rather than those who might write only in a longer form. I don't know if that would be a big problem, but it would be something to consider.

And returning to the original topic...



> Standard manuscript formatting. If you don't use it, most agents/publishers/whatever won't even look at your work.



Good site here: http://www.shunn.net/format/

Also, it's generally hard to go wrong with a standard format, but remember that if the publisher's submission guidelines differ in any way from the standard, follow their guidelines instead.


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## darkfox118 (Nov 10, 2009)

Just a general update for anyone who doesn't care :lol:

I edited and submitted one of my stories to a few publishers. One has rejeceted it, 2 others have not said yet (although I think the chances are good that they will reject it too.)

I dont really care in a self esteem kind of way, I know it's not my best work and its formatting is very poor overall. 

So.. I'll just hope that they will either accept it, or reject it with helpful tips on why.. and I'll move onto the next idea.

Manuscript is great. I love using it, helps me write and read what I'm writing.


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## Kage6415 (Nov 10, 2009)

You know, you can also self publish books. Like here: http://www.lulu.com/

As a class project we compiled a few pieces of writing from every one and created a class book, of which we used this site to make a book. You can do everything from designing your own cover to the order you want the pages in, etc... And it's pretty cheap. If I remember correctly, our book was a little over 100 pages and it was about $6 a book. 

I don't know, I think it just might be a little easier than going through the troubles of getting an agent and trying to get publishing companies to publish your book. 

But hey, that's just me.


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## Poetigress (Nov 11, 2009)

Kage6415 said:


> You know, you can also self publish books. Like here: http://www.lulu.com/
> 
> As a class project we compiled a few pieces of writing from every one and created a class book, of which we used this site to make a book. You can do everything from designing your own cover to the order you want the pages in, etc... And it's pretty cheap. If I remember correctly, our book was a little over 100 pages and it was about $6 a book.
> 
> ...



Easier, yes, if all you want is your writing packaged in book form and you don't need or care to reach beyond a small niche audience. See the several posts about Lulu in the first page of this thread.


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## Poetigress (Nov 11, 2009)

darkfox118 said:


> I know it's not my best work and its formatting is very poor overall.
> 
> So.. I'll just hope that they will either accept it, or reject it with helpful tips on why..



If it's not your best work, and the formatting is poor, why are you wasting your time and theirs by sending it out? 

I'm not saying everything you send out has to be the best thing you ever wrote in your life, but you should at least be invested enough in it to make sure it's as good as you can make it at this point, before you send it to editors. If you know there's something wrong with the formatting, you should fix it. (I'm not sure what you mean by formatting in this case -- grammar, spelling, manuscript format? If it's something like that, those are all skills you can learn.) Why should an editor give their full, detailed attention to something you've done a halfhearted job with?

Some will reject with comments, but don't count on it; form rejections are the rule these days. In fact, I'm noticing more and more markets that simply don't respond at all, let alone send the standard "this doesn't meet our needs at this time."


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## darkfox118 (Nov 15, 2009)

it wasn't a half hearted job. I've just felt like I could do better. I feel that my best work unfortunately.. has furry topics.. therefore is not eligible for publishing anywhere. 

I write a lot more fur related stuff than non fur and that limits what I can submit. 

I edited an existing story, I didn't write a new one with the intent of publishing. It made little sense to do at the time. 

I was very tired of the story by the time I had edited it. Each publisher required a different format so it had to be changed so many times that formatting errors developed. Errors that I only noticed after submitting them. (I forget what chapter I am reading for instance and wound up with incorrect numbering at one point.)

I spent the good part of 2 weeks editing the story and rewriting it before submitting it, after spending several weeks before writing it. 

Given thats not a lot of time, but my read through (apparently) overlooked mistakes.

I really should have someone else edit my work I think. I have a bad habit of seeing what I want or expect, rather than what is actually on the page.

Either way, it was a learning experience.. all they can do is say no.


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## TakeWalker (Nov 15, 2009)

darkfox118 said:


> it wasn't a half hearted job. I've just felt like I could do better. I feel that my best work unfortunately.. has furry topics.. therefore is not eligible for publishing anywhere.



Not true! :V Check out the "places to send furry fiction" thread!


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## Poetigress (Nov 16, 2009)

Besides, you can publish anthropomorphic fiction in non-furry markets, if it's the right kind of story (which usually means, there has to be some purpose for your character being anthro).


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## Atrak (Nov 16, 2009)

darkfox118 said:


> I feel that my best work unfortunately.. has furry topics...


 

Are you saying this is a bad thing? You're a furry, of COURSE your best work is anthro  . This is good for us, too, as we get to read the best stuff while the furry-haters miss out ^^ .


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## darkfox118 (Nov 17, 2009)

hehe. 

well, I haven't tried all that much with the furry stuff. I figured it was such a narrow market that the competition would be pretty stiff.  I'm just a guy with open office and an imagination.. I don't have a degree in this or anything lol. It's just a hobby. 

my works USUALLY have a reason for someone being anthro.. or.. in most cases. being an animal with human intelligence.. or becoming one. I guess I'm kinda quirky that way.


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## Atrak (Nov 18, 2009)

They have a degree for being a furry writer? I want one! Get my PhD in Anthropomorphic Literature  . Get an MFA for furries? Hell, I'll sign up for that major ^^ . Where do I register?

Oh, and my works have a reason for being anthro too: I'm a furry  . I need no other reason, but if you really want one, I can spout off a few off the top of my head. They will involve symbolism, will sound very deep, and will be completely thought of on the spot  . Heh heh. You're saying you don't do much furry stuff, then why are you publishing on a furry site? Send us the furry stuff, I know you have some short stories stashed somewhere ^^ .


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## darkfox118 (Nov 18, 2009)

I do do furry stuff. That's about all I do. 

I guess.. I mean.. it all varies.

it depends what you define as "furry."

if yiou define it as and only as a universe where anthros are the norm then thats unusual for me, but not at all beyond what I enjoy writing or reading.

if you describe it as anything involving animals with intelligence, anthro or otherwise.. yes thats me. 

I am a furry, I like furries, and furry related stuff. 

I will check out the "places to submit furry stuff" link above when I finish my next couple of ideas.


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## Atrak (Nov 18, 2009)

> only as a universe where anthros are the norm





> anything involving animals with intelligence, anthro or otherwise



My IDA series is a bit of a mix of those, actually. Heh heh  . Check them out, if you want, but you'll have to read all three of the ones I've published so far to get a real sense of what I mean.

http://www.furaffinity.net/gallery/atrakaj/

Hmm...I really should just add the link to my mini-profile ^^ .


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