# Abuse of power



## thebeast76 (Nov 26, 2010)

Earlier this evening @Chase notified me of 'photobucket' submissions as well as some other issues with images in my gallery such as personal photos of myself and other such things that needed to be dealt with. I cleared (what I considered) all of the offending images from my gallery and notified him as such. He then said that I still had other images in my gallery which I had to remove. I said I had gotten rid of all the images that seemed to fall under the infraction's umbrella, to which he replied that if I did not get rid of these images, which I considered art, that actions would be taken against my account since I did not follow the rules in one hour. Alarmed, I made a journal and re-posted the messages chronicling the incident from the previous frame of time since I was informed of the images, and notified my friends what to do in case I was banned, or in this case, suspended. At approximately 11:10 PM CST, I was rather startled to find the journal had been erased from my page without any notification, and have reason to believe that I was falsely accused of leaving 'photobucket'-style submissions in my gallery, even though I had only left artistic photos in it.

At about 11:13 PM CST, my account was suspended for seven days.

At the current time, my submissions have been tampered with and several images have been deleted without any notification. And as it currently stands, it seems I was also suspended for trying to notify others of this (as it seems to me) unjust and unfair action.

Here is the journal, transcribed on my DeviantArt page.
http://robomattias.deviantart.com/journal/0/


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## Gavrill (Nov 26, 2010)

What were the images?

Also, this wasn't supposed to go into actual effect for 21 days, right?


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## Grendel (Nov 26, 2010)

Well Chase is just all over today isn't he?


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## Corto (Nov 26, 2010)

Skift said:


> What were the images?
> 
> Also, this wasn't supposed to go into actual effect for 21 days, right?


 This isn't about cub porn as far as I know, reading that link.
EDIT: Also there's a better way to complain about this, send a PM or note to an admin.


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## thebeast76 (Nov 26, 2010)

Skift said:


> What were the images?


 
The majority of images were images that I felt personally were not up to snuff in my opinion. I also got rid of the images that I thought HE thought were in violation.
The latest images I am unsure of now, since they have been deleted by someone who is not me, however, I do know that a large number of them were automobile photographs.


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## Gavrill (Nov 26, 2010)

Corto said:


> This isn't about cub porn as far as I know, reading that link.
> EDIT: Also there's a better way to complain about this, send a PM or note to an admin.


 
Oh, I thought it meant all stuff being grandfathered.


Also, if they're collections, but still high-quality photographs, they shouldn't be a problem, correct? Like this? (inb4 submission deleted)



thebeast76 said:


> The majority of images were images that I felt personally were not up to snuff in my opinion. I also got rid of the images that I thought HE thought were in violation.
> The latest images I am unsure of now, since they have been deleted by someone who is not me, however, I do know that a large number of them were automobile photographs.


 If they're pretty high quality, at least digital camera quality, I don't see why it would be an issue...


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## Xaerun (Nov 26, 2010)

GOD I HATE CHASE
Someone once wrote him an "ilu" in a trouble ticket
No-one writes me anything in trouble tickets 
=c

Oh and beast
If they're commercial items, you're bang outta luck.


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## Ben (Nov 26, 2010)

You seem level-headed enough. Can you link us to the images that you didn't want to delete?


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## Corto (Nov 26, 2010)

I'll write you a trouble ticket Xaerun.


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## Willow (Nov 26, 2010)

Bravo Chase!


Skift said:


> Like this? (inb4 submission deleted)
> 
> 
> If they're pretty high quality, at least digital camera quality, I don't see why it would be an issue...


 I'm pretty sure that breaks some rule.


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## thebeast76 (Nov 26, 2010)

Ben said:


> You seem level-headed enough. Can you link us to the images that you didn't want to delete?


 
Unfortunately, I can't because they have been deleted.


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## Xaerun (Nov 26, 2010)

Corto said:


> I'll write you a trouble ticket Xaerun.


 If you don't write it with lots of love-hearts and smiley faces I will demand a refund


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## Gavrill (Nov 26, 2010)

Willow said:


> I'm pretty sure that breaks some rule.


 
That really sucks, considering it's of high quality and would get good marks in a photography class. (None of those drugs are illegal, either.)


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## Corto (Nov 26, 2010)

Xaerun said:


> If you don't write it with lots of love-hearts and smiley faces I will demand a refund


 
God you're such a fag. 
Ok is there some way to redirect TT to specific staff members or do I risk Dragoneer or whoever answering my hate letter?


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## Ben (Nov 26, 2010)

Willow said:


> Bravo Chase!
> 
> I'm pretty sure that breaks some rule.


 
That is a really lovely and hi-res photo though. Deleting things like that would just indicate boredom of the admins, if anything.


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## Willow (Nov 26, 2010)

Skift said:


> That really sucks, considering it's of high quality and would get good marks in a photography class. (None of those drugs are illegal, either.)


 


Ben said:


> That is a really lovely and hi-res photo though. Deleting things like that would just indicate boredom of the admins, if anything.


 I never said it wasn't good quality guys. I only said it might, but I wasn't sure.


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## Gavrill (Nov 26, 2010)

Ben said:


> That is a really lovely and hi-res photo though. Deleting things like that would just indicate boredom of the admins, if anything.


 
She did a short 4-pic series on them, each high quality. I even asked for a bigger version of one to use as a background. She has larger versions available, which is pretty awesome. 
I once posted a high-res photo of my taxidermy collection, never got bitched out for that...


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## Moddex (Nov 26, 2010)

Knowledge of this kind of shit and behavior is irritating as hell. I spent my youth trying to vilify myself in the eyes of people who like to trounce others with authority. :\ How cheap are we, really?

If somebody should want to take down work that qualifies as this, they better be prepared to take on the whole site's worth of expendable submissions rather than just pick and choose who they feel like doing this to.


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## Sharpguard (Nov 26, 2010)

I've stopped being surprised at admins here being incompetent a long time ago. Now I just mind my own business and don't give a fuck.


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## thebeast76 (Nov 26, 2010)

I was suspended, and had 227 images remaining in my gallery.
I logged out and checked again, and only had 211.
That's 16 submissions too many.
I want to know WHY they were removed. 
They were not posted as photobucket submissions.
They were submitted with the sole purpose of being artistic.
I did not want to be suspended.
I wanted to post art.
I'm frustrated and confused, and I just want justification for these actions.


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## Summercat (Nov 26, 2010)

thebeast76 said:


> I was suspended, and had 227 images remaining in my gallery.
> I logged out and checked again, and only had 211.
> That's 16 submissions too many.
> I want to know WHY they were removed.
> ...


 
What were these photos of?


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## Accountability (Nov 26, 2010)

thebeast76 said:


> Unfortunately, I can't because they have been deleted.


 
Can you upload them somewhere else? Like Photobucket?


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## foxmusk (Nov 26, 2010)

well it's because chase is a whiny-ass who's trigger-happy with the ban/suspend function. it's only a matter of time before he goes on a suspension rampage for anyone who doesn't kiss his ass here.

sorry, i know that's immature of me but he is the worst admin we have.


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## Fay V (Nov 26, 2010)

HarleyRoadkill said:


> well it's because chase is a whiny-ass who's trigger-happy with the ban/suspend function. it's only a matter of time before he goes on a suspension rampage for anyone who doesn't kiss his ass here.
> 
> *sorry, i know that's immature of me but he is the worst admin we have*.



I think he's too ready to take advantage of his power and mess with people's accounts. It's one thing when you're a friend, haha whatever, but when it leaks over it becomes a problem. I worry that he doesn't know where the line is.


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## Smelge (Nov 26, 2010)

I have noticed a tendency to go after people who criticise popular people on the site. And interactions I've had with him didn't seem very nice. If you want to admin without pissing everyone off, you need to be polite. let them know that they've done wrong, but not be aggressive or threatening about it.

"Do this or I will ban you"


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## medjai (Nov 26, 2010)

Smelge said:


> I have noticed a tendency to go after people who criticise popular people on the site. And interactions I've had with him didn't seem very nice. If you want to admin without pissing everyone off, you need to be polite. let them know that they've done wrong, but not be aggressive or threatening about it.
> 
> "Do this or I will ban you"


 
Well, it's kind of the same here... I've gotten in shit for 'not listen to a mod', even if what the mod asked had nothing to do with the guidelines. And none of the other mods will reverse it, because as Corto said, things get messy. Same on the mainsite. The rules are often independent of the mod/admin's wishes, but if you don't obey the staff, regardless of whether or not you're right according to the rules, you're banned/infracted/something. There's a lot of 'abuse of power' between the two sites, and it's hardly unique to Chase.


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## Smelge (Nov 26, 2010)

medjai said:


> Well, it's kind of the same here... I've gotten in shit for 'not listen to a mod', even if what the mod asked had nothing to do with the guidelines. And none of the other mods will reverse it, because as Corto said, things get messy. Same on the mainsite. The rules are often independent of the mod/admin's wishes, but if you don't obey the staff, regardless of whether or not you're right according to the rules, you're banned/infracted/something. There's a lot of 'abuse of power' between the two sites, and it's hardly unique to Chase.


 
Most of the mods on FAF are fine. If you ask for clarification or want to contest an infraction, they're usually happy to do so and polite. I can name one or two that have the whole "I am a mod, you will do exactly what I say or else, you little shit" attitude, but on the whole the forum mods are fine.


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## Gavrill (Nov 26, 2010)

I've had a run in with Chase as well. Because apparently I was harassing someone by namedropping them which happens all the goddamn time in people's journals.

I admit my friends may have overreacted, but damn. The dude said I was level-headed and mature at first, then turned around an insulted and blocked me, yet I'm the one who gets flak. 

THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR TRYING TO DISCUSS THINGS WITH POPUFURS.
/cautionary tale




Smelge said:


> Most of the mods on FAF are fine. If you ask for clarification or want to contest an infraction, they're usually happy to do so and polite. I can name one or two that have the whole "I am a mod, you will do exactly what I say or else, you little shit" attitude, but on the whole the forum mods are fine.


 
The main site is not like this. At all.


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## Smelge (Nov 26, 2010)

Skift said:


> I've had a run in with Chase as well. Because apparently I was harassing someone by namedropping them which happens all the goddamn time in people's journals.


 
This sounds familiar.

I'm pretty certain you actually have to physically go and be nasty to someone for it to be harassment. If the person in question doesn't know about it, they've not been harassed.


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## Gavrill (Nov 26, 2010)

Smelge said:


> This sounds familiar.
> 
> I'm pretty certain you actually have to physically go and be nasty to someone for it to be harassment. If the person in question doesn't know about it, they've not been harassed.


I wasn't really harassing them about it, either, when they did find out (thanks to some people jumping the gun). I mean, even the guy I namedropped said I was a mature debater. I even apologized because I misunderstood him. 

But, eh. I didn't actually get banned so I guess I have no room to complain.


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## medjai (Nov 26, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Most of the mods on FAF are fine. If you ask for clarification or want to contest an infraction, they're usually happy to do so and polite. I can name one or two that have the whole "I am a mod, you will do exactly what I say or else, you little shit" attitude, but on the whole the forum mods are fine.


 
On the whole, yes. But the shit disturbing 'obey me' mods also seem to be the most active in actions, and so they do seem greater in number. Only two issues from me overall... But none on the mainsite. I'm a major lurker there though.


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## Summercat (Nov 26, 2010)

First: I'm still awaiting from the OP to find out what they were photos of. If they were items that fail the AUP, then whoop de do. If not, then we'll proceed from there.

Secondly: When a moderator asks you to cease a certain behavior, and you ignore the warning and continue, do not be surprised when you get an infraction. You can protest the original warning, and try to discuss it, but ignoring it isn't the right thing to do.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

I've sent a message to Chase asking him to explain himself in this nature, and that we'll look into it.

That said, looking into your user history, the suspension was due to having 13 separate AUP violations and one :embed account: in the past where you were uploading Kiriban screenshots which has, and always has, violated the rules. Due to the nature of it Chase made the suspension based on that. I'm not justifying it, just reading the admin logs and actions taken.

Further, I see in the communications that you posted pictures a nazi flag, sniper rifle, etc, which were otherwise collection items. You did protest that you posted them as art, but you did note you would flat out refuse to remove them. Given that... it seems sort of iffy as to the response. You could have phrased it a little differently, or asked for a second opinion, etc?



> When a moderator asks you to cease a certain behavior, and you ignore  the warning and continue, do not be surprised when you get an  infraction. You can protest the original warning, and try to discuss it,  but ignoring it isn't the right thing to do.


Exactly this.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

medjai said:


> On the whole, yes. But the shit disturbing 'obey me' mods also seem to be the most active in actions, and so they do seem greater in number. Only two issues from me overall... But none on the mainsite. I'm a major lurker there though.


Anybody is free to tell any mod "I would like to consult with Dragoneer on the issue and ask his opinion" if they feel an admin is going too far. I'll review the issue openly and fairly as best I can towards the actions.


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## Smelge (Nov 26, 2010)

Summercat said:


> Secondly: When a moderator asks you to cease a certain behavior, and you ignore the warning and continue, do not be surprised when you get an infraction. You can protest the original warning, and try to discuss it, but ignoring it isn't the right thing to do.


 
The process I use when I get warned or infracted, is if I feel it's unjustified or a misinterpretation, I'll PM back and contest it, but cease what was causing the trouble for the time being. Usually I won't be doing anything that warrants warnings or infractions unless I have a good reason, which I'll usually explain in my response. I don't ignore it out of hand.

This is why my recent mainsite run-in with a certain admin rankles. I feel it was unjustified and the messages were unnecessarily caustic, especially as they were left directly on the submission, rather than as a PM. I was the one that took it to PM, rather than make a public scene, and I asked to get a second opinion from another site admin, as I felt the accusation was unfair. I was given the choice of either deleting the submission right now without a second opinion, or get a second opinion and banned for not deleting it.

Add to that, if it was a proper violation or harassment, why didn't the admin in question delete it himself, rather than threaten banning unless his will be met.

[edit]God damn it, sniped by Dragoneer.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

Smelge said:


> This is why my recent mainsite run-in with a certain admin rankles. I feel it was unjustified and the messages were unnecessarily caustic, especially as they were left directly on the submission, rather than as a PM. I was the one that took it to PM, rather than make a public scene, and I asked to get a second opinion from another site admin, as I felt the accusation was unfair. I was given the choice of either deleting the submission right now without a second opinion, or get a second opinion and banned for not deleting it.


I don't see any admin actions or comments left on your account. 

I'd invite you to e-mail me at admin@furaffinity.net with your story so I can look into it. Any and all evidence will be beneficial in the matter for us to look into it.


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## thebeast76 (Nov 26, 2010)

Summercat said:


> First: I'm still awaiting from the OP to find out what they were photos of.


 
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_875.jpg
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0879.jpg
These two I removed on my own, and they were what I believe started this whole issue.
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0764.jpg
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/IMG_0731-Copy.jpg
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/IMG_0734_2.jpg
http://robomattias.deviantart.com/a...=in:scraps+sort:time+gallery:robomattias&qo=5
These were subsequently deleted after my account had been suspended.
There were also several photographs of car emblems.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

thebeast76 said:


> http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_875.jpg
> http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0879.jpg
> These two I removed on my own, and they were what I believe started this whole issue.
> http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0764.jpg
> ...


http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0764.jpg

Now, of those pictures, this is the only one I can really see having unquestionable artistic merit. In fact, I'd go right out and say that it's pretty badass. The photos of cars a problem because FA has been off and on flooded with pictures of cars, and it's become sort of hard to deal with (some accounts have 1000+ images of nothing but car shows).

That said, if http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0764.jpg was posted,  I don't think it deserved to be moved. Macro-lense was clearly used to capture the detail of the image against the keyboard.


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## thebeast76 (Nov 26, 2010)

> That said, if http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/RoboMattias/FA_0764.jpg was posted,  I don't think it deserved to be moved. Macro-lense was clearly used to capture the detail of the image against the keyboard.


 
All the photos linked were posted on FA.


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## owlfoxes (Nov 26, 2010)

why is chase is going after people for this when he has photographs of dogs

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4787932/

and food in his gallery

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4777106/

he also has photographs of his collection of pets

http://www.furaffinity.net/scraps/chase/

how come admins are allowed to do this but not normal people? i don't understand it, its like the rules change depending on what admin your dealing with and different admins have different interpretations of the same rules


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## owlfoxes (Nov 26, 2010)

WTF?! Chase just deleted the picture of the dog lying on its back 

does that mean it was against the rules?

how come admins can get away with pictures against the rules without punishment but other people get banned for a week?!?


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

owlfoxes said:


> WTF?! Chase just deleted the picture of the dog lying on its back
> 
> does that mean it was against the rules?
> 
> how come admins can get away with pictures against the rules without punishment but other people get banned for a week?!?


I'm sure if you saw the chewing out I'm giving to Chase right now you'd agree he's NOT getting away with it.


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## Willow (Nov 26, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> I'm sure if you saw the chewing out I'm giving to Chase right now you'd agree he's NOT getting away with it.


 Are you going to make him sit in the corner too?


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## Blacksheep1987 (Nov 26, 2010)

owlfoxes said:


> WTF?! Chase just deleted the picture of the dog lying on its back
> 
> does that mean it was against the rules?
> 
> how come admins can get away with pictures against the rules without punishment but other people get banned for a week?!?



Lol it's not only the admins that get away with breaking those rules. Popular artists get away with breaking rules all the time


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## ShadowEon (Nov 26, 2010)

My advice: If you want to post photography, i'd stick with just using deviantART for that. While I would agree (even if I am not so comfortable with the gun pics), your photos are "artsy", things are kind of strict here when it comes to photography.

On my DA I upload pictures of plants and etc. and that is perfectly acceptable there.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

Blacksheep1987 said:


> Lol it's not only the admins that get away with breaking those rules. Popular artists get away with breaking rules all the time


 We've taken down popular artists a lot, and banned even some of FA's most popular. I do not favor anybody over the other.


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## Grandpriest (Nov 26, 2010)

Wow.  Chase reminds me of the hall monitor at school who gave people infractions left and right for being a second late, then another infraction to someone who already has a hall pass because he's moving so fast he doesn't realize the person isn't breaking any rules.
If it's true, I don't like him already.


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## owlfoxes (Nov 26, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> I'm sure if you saw the chewing out I'm giving to Chase right now you'd agree he's NOT getting away with it.


 
oh, ok 
hope this wont happen again then


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## Grandpriest (Nov 26, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> I'm sure if you saw the chewing out I'm giving to Chase right now you'd agree he's NOT getting away with it.


 I'd much rather be chewed out than suspended with many of my things deleted ...
I'd say he got off pretty easily, unless there are other punishments inside the vague detail of being "chewed out".


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## Kantress (Nov 26, 2010)

Something I'm rather curious about is why Chase told the user to delete the submissions, rather than just do the deleting himself.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

Kantress said:


> Something I'm rather curious about is why Chase told the user to delete the submissions, rather than just do the deleting himself.


 There was far more than 16 submission total, and Chase left it up to the user.


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## Grandpriest (Nov 26, 2010)

So, what was the final/actual reason he was suspended?  I'm sure Chase has a voice that would like to be heard on his side.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

Grandpriest said:


> So, what was the final/actual reason he was suspended?  I'm sure Chase has a voice that would like to be heard on his side.


 The reason he was suspended was due to him A) refusing to remove some submissions which were in violation and B) posting a journal regarding it, in which point quite a few users basically started slamming Chase for actions which /were/ legit. I won't say everything was peachy on both sides, but that was the gist of it. He posted a journal questioning/berating Chase's actions and people who were commenting on it went on a flame fest against Chase over it.


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## Grandpriest (Nov 26, 2010)

Was his sentence reduced?  If not ...
Being suspended for 7 days because of that ... doesn't seem fair.  A 24 hour warning, maybe, but not a week because someone wasn't fast enough.  In that case, all the cub stuff should have been given a 2 day grace period, max. XD
As it has been said, there are plenty of works out there that people aren't getting bitched at for, so it still seems unfair.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 26, 2010)

Grandpriest said:


> Was his sentence reduced?  If not ...
> Being suspended for 7 days because of that ... doesn't seem fair.  A 24 hour warning, maybe, but not a week because someone wasn't fast enough.  In that case, all the cub stuff should have been given a 2 day grace period, max. XD
> As it has been said, there are plenty of works out there that people aren't getting bitched at for, so it still seems unfair.


 I removed it.


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## Grandpriest (Nov 26, 2010)

Okay cool.  That pretty much clears it up then, huh?
Let's hope a similar situation doesn't happen again.


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## Kantress (Nov 26, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> There was far more than 16 submission total, and Chase left it up to the user.



Well, yeah, but, I thought the admins did it automatically and explained why. It just seems like more work for the admin to go back and forth with the user than it is just to delete the offending pics.


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## Pinkuh (Nov 26, 2010)

If we let users take care of it themselves there is usually allot less hurt when it comes to gallery removals.


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## Corto (Nov 26, 2010)

Smelge said:


> I can name one or two that have the whole "I am a mod, you will do exactly what I say or else, you little shit" attitude, but on the whole the forum mods are fine.



Me?


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## Smelge (Nov 26, 2010)

Corto said:


> Me?


 
You are a terrible person, and one day I shall end you.


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## rabidfangirl90 (Nov 26, 2010)

chase even says on his profile page that he will take "swift action" against anyone he believes his attempting to "troll him"
well trolling is a pretty loose term IMHO

and this isn't the first time he's done stuff like this
he's too damn trigger happy with his banhammer.


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## Kantress (Nov 27, 2010)

It doesn't help if the page owner is inactive, or if the owner ignores the request and the admin forgets to follow up, or if the owner's belligerent and wants to fight everything.


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## Gavrill (Nov 27, 2010)

The original issue seems to have been resolved for the OP, is this thread still necessary? 

As much as I love the smell of dirty laundry...


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## Dragoneer (Nov 27, 2010)

rabidfangirl90 said:


> chase even says on his profile page that he will take "swift action" against anyone he believes his attempting to "troll him"
> well trolling is a pretty loose term IMHO
> 
> and this isn't the first time he's done stuff like this
> he's too damn trigger happy with his banhammer.


 Trolling or retaliating against the admins is not something we approve of it, and yep, troll the admins and it's a pretty sure-shot way to get banned.


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## rodox_video (Nov 27, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> We've taken down popular artists a lot, and banned even some of FA's most popular. I do not favor anybody over the other.


 
Did MilesDF ever get an apology for having the Citra Crisis picture deleted? 

I know the incident is ancient history, but god damn.


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## Volkodav (Nov 27, 2010)

Xaerun said:


> GOD I HATE CHASE
> Someone once wrote him an "ilu" in a trouble ticket
> No-one writes me anything in trouble tickets


 I DO XAERUN
I DO


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## Volkodav (Nov 27, 2010)

Man, does this mean pics of animals are going to be deleted now? ]: I really love the people who upload photos from zoos


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## Accountability (Nov 27, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> I'm sure if you saw the chewing out I'm giving to Chase right now you'd agree he's NOT getting away with it.


 
Exactly how much chewing out needs to happen before someone is shown the door around here? I mean, this isn't the first time Chase (or another admin) has done something like this... And the most notorious offenders are still around...


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## rodox_video (Nov 27, 2010)

I was never at all comfortable with Chase being made admin. No points are awarded for guessing why.


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## Summercat (Nov 27, 2010)

Let's not turn this into a callout thread on Chase please.

...well, any further than it already is.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 27, 2010)

Accountability said:


> Exactly how much chewing out needs to happen before someone is shown the door around here? I mean, this isn't the first time Chase (or another admin) has done something like this... And the most notorious offenders are still around...


 Issues were made on both sides.

Chase had made some mistakes, yes, but he's doen far more than good than the mistakes that he's made. I'm not saying he's perfect, never said he was.

Closing the thread. Everything that was needed to be discussed has been discussed.


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