# Do ex-gays exist?



## RayO_ElGatubelo (Jun 14, 2010)

I regularly spy on _Americans for Truth about Homosexuality_, and I wonder if you guys think that people can change their sexual orientation.

My answer might be offensive to some, but is yes. In my opinion, anybody can change their sexual orientation if they believe a vengeful sky fairy's going to smite them if they don't.

It says a lot about society when a guy who is in love with another guy is considered mentally ill, but a guy who believes in an imaginary man in the sky is perfectly fine. I should make a t-shirt that says "I'D RATHER BE GAY THAN SUPERSTITIOUS."

But I'd like you guys' opinion. Do ex-gays exist?


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## Darkwing (Jun 14, 2010)

Well, it is technically possible to be ex-gay since sexuality is a fluid and changing thing, but I do not advocate what religions do in terms of ex-gay therapy. I've read stories about what goes on there and it's pretty damn cruel.


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## Mukavich (Jun 14, 2010)

Well, according to The Venture Bros, yes.  But in real life, I doubt it.  Those that would be "ex-gay" in my experience are just in denial.


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## Jashwa (Jun 14, 2010)

Darkwing said:


> Well, it is technically possible to be ex-gay since sexuality is a fluid and changing thing, but I do not advocate what religions do in terms of ex-gay therapy. I've read stories about what goes on there and it's pretty damn cruel.


 [this] plus an added "They're not "cured", they're just repressing themselves."


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## Akro (Jun 14, 2010)

You can never undo anal sex.


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## Fuzzy Alien (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm ex-straight, so sure, it's possible to be ex-gay.



But then again, I'm bi... so...


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## Willow (Jun 14, 2010)

I used to be straight, and then was suddenly repulsed by male genitalia and sex with men and I started liking women (I still do though), but you know what, shit happens

I'm probably bi now


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## south syde dobe (Jun 14, 2010)

Fuzzy Alien said:


> I'm ex-straight, so sure, it's possible to be ex-gay.
> 
> 
> 
> But then again, I'm bi... so...


You don't count fuzzy lol


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## RayO_ElGatubelo (Jun 14, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> I'm probably bi now



Would you like me to help you decide?

Sorry, womanizer instincts.


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## Ibuuyk (Jun 14, 2010)

I didn't see a inb4Ibuuyk, I'm disappoint.

But yeah, they're rare but they exist.


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## south syde dobe (Jun 14, 2010)

actually I wouldn't be surprised if there was some that could say they were ex-gay, like maybe someone finding men attractive and then find that the sex sucks and don't find them sexy anymore and rather be with a women doesn't sound impossible...just highly unlikely


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 14, 2010)

Sure. 

I believe that if someone wants to get "treatment" then I say let them. Unfortunately some gays feel the need to verbally assault "traitors."


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## Willow (Jun 14, 2010)

RayO_ElGatubelo said:


> Would you like me to help you decide?
> 
> Sorry, womanizer instincts.


 I forgive you, but uhhh, I don't think I need help


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## Torrijos-sama (Jun 14, 2010)

You can become straight again after enough soul-crushing labour, re-education and aversion therapy.

I'VE FOUND THE CURE!


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## south syde dobe (Jun 14, 2010)

JesusFish said:


> You can become straight again after enough soul-crushing labour, re-education and aversion therapy.
> 
> I'VE FOUND THE CURE!


Awesome


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## Akro (Jun 14, 2010)

I think if you become an 'ex-gay' You were never really gay in the first place


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## Zontar (Jun 14, 2010)

Most of these "ex-gay" programs are largely religious-based. So I'm gonna have to say no, they never fucking work.


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## Tycho (Jun 14, 2010)

A "cure" for a case of teh homogay is non-existent.  Ex-gays are a myth.  You are or you aren't.  Whether you choose to act on your sexuality is your choice, homosexual actions occur outside of genuine homosexuality, and the same for heteros.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm an ex-straight... shit's pretty cool.


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## Shiroka (Jun 14, 2010)

It reminds me of that one episode of South Park when Butters gets sent to that center to "pray the gay away" because they think he's bi-curious. The kids basically had two choices; become straight or kill themselves under the weight of their self-disgust.

Yeah, you can switch sexuality, just like you can decide to "like" a vegetable you actually hate. To suck cock is a choice but to like it is not.


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## RayO_ElGatubelo (Jun 14, 2010)

Shiroka said:


> It reminds me of that one episode of South Park when Butters gets sent to that center to "pray the gay away" because they think he's bi-curious. The kids basically had two choices; become straight or kill themselves under the weight of their self-disgust.


 
What's ironic is that LaBarbera actually blames homosexuality on self-disgust!


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 15, 2010)

I think for SOME people it's a choice.

For others, it's pretty much set in stone.


For example: if your brain structure is more like that of a straight member of the opposite sex, it's unlikely that you'd ever be straight.  However, if your brain is constructed somewhere between typical male or female, nobody says you must be bisexual.  This is where I think most people who can make the choice reside, while it is possible for someone with a brain structure like a straight member of the same sex to choose to be gay, but that'd be the only scenario completely based on choice.


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## Jashwa (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> For example: if your brain structure is more like that of a straight member of the opposite sex, it's unlikely that you'd ever be straight.  However, if your brain is constructed somewhere between typical male or female, nobody says you must be bisexual.  This is where I think most people who can make the choice reside, while it is possible for someone with a brain structure like a straight member of the same sex to choose to be gay, but that'd be the only scenario completely based on choice.


 _...what? _


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> I think for SOME people it's a choice.
> 
> For others, it's pretty much set in stone.
> 
> ...


 


Jashwa said:


> _...what? _


In my mind that doesn't even make any sense :|


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 15, 2010)

Jashwa said:


> _...what? _


 
IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LIEK A GIRLZ, YOU ARE GAY NO MATTER WHAT.
IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN BOY AND GIRL, YOU'RE LIKELY TO CONSIDER BISEXUALITY, HOMOSEXUALITY, AND HETEROSEXUALITY.
IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LEIK A BOY, THEN IF UR GAY, IT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU DECIDED TO BE.


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## Jashwa (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LIEK A GIRLZ, YOU ARE GAY NO MATTER WHAT.
> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN BOY AND GIRL, YOU'RE LIKELY TO CONSIDER BISEXUALITY, HOMOSEXUALITY, AND HETEROSEXUALITY.
> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LEIK A BOY, THEN IF UR GAY, IT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU DECIDED TO BE.


 You're wrong.


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LIEK A GIRLZ, YOU ARE GAY NO MATTER WHAT.
> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN BOY AND GIRL, YOU'RE LIKELY TO CONSIDER BISEXUALITY, HOMOSEXUALITY, AND HETEROSEXUALITY.
> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LEIK A BOY, THEN IF UR GAY, IT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU DECIDED TO BE.


 It doesn't work like that :|


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 15, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> In my mind that doesn't even make any sense :|


 
Take psychology.  Brain structure for females and males is typically different, and gays/lesbians tend to have the "wrong" brains for their gender.  Straight males and lesbian females tend to have better spacial reasoning skills than gay males and straight females.  Straight females and gay males, on the other hand, have better intuition.


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## Adelin (Jun 15, 2010)

I remember watching a show where a group of straight men would change a gay guy into a straight guy for a week......It looked fake but their strategy was kinda believable......

SINCE WHEN DID I BECOME AN ALPHA WOLF?!


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 15, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> It doesn't work like that :|


 
Yeah it does, unless my psychology book lies.


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## Browder (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Take psychology.  Brain structure for females and males is typically different, and gays/lesbians tend to have the "wrong" brains for their gender.  Straight males and lesbian females tend to have better spacial reasoning skills than gay males and straight females.  Straight females and gay males, on the other hand, have better intuition.


 
Believe it or not, I actually read an article that claimed this. However the article did say that this was a shaky theory. All theories on human sexuality usually are.


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Browder said:


> Believe it or not, I actually read an article that claimed this. However the article did say that this was a shaky theory. All theories on human sexuality usually are.


 Sexual attraction and all things pertaining to it are still pretty much in the dark


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## Tao (Jun 15, 2010)

I wouldn't doubt it.


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## Lobar (Jun 15, 2010)

There are gays that have repressed themselves into celibacy, or launched themselves into an unhappy marriage with the opposite sex in the hopes that they will "normalize" with time.  These are the unfortunate individuals touted as "successes" by ex-gay ministries.



Fenrir Lupus said:


> Yeah it does, unless my psychology book lies.


 
Given some of your other opinions I do have serious misgivings about the quality of your education.


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## Stargazer Bleu (Jun 15, 2010)

I think it can be very possible. 
I think it might be rare tho.



Could be they actualy gave the oppsite gender a try to find they liked it.  Then again that might make them bi.


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## Slyck (Jun 15, 2010)

I don't think so.

_It just feels too good._


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## Adelin (Jun 15, 2010)

Hmmm its not entirely impossible......They can change from being gay to straight if they want to, but its very RARE. :3


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## ElizabethAlexandraMary (Jun 15, 2010)

I was pretty gay, and I have a girlfriend now.
I fap to vaginas.


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## BroadSmak (Jun 15, 2010)

I was straight until I was like 9, then I turned bi, then I got gayer and gayer over time.
So yah.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Can you make a straight guy gay?


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## Aden (Jun 15, 2010)

Trying to cure gay is like trying to cure someone of their hair color. It's just throwing a blanket over it, repressing it, and hoping that everyone around them believes it.



Fenrir Lupus said:


> Yeah it does, unless my psychology book lies.


 
Scan in said page(s) _with context_ or get a source, bro.


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## Jelly (Jun 15, 2010)

I understand there's a big shame culture around homosexuality, but I have known guys that were genuinely straight and developed to be fully homosexual (no attraction to opposite sex) over time (so why couldn't it go the other way).
sexuality is pretty fluid and jumpy
I don't know, it's like applying some necessary or linear thinking to a human culture.
which is difficult, at best

But I have no anecdotal evidence or anything for the other way.
I don't care one way or the other, but I get the feeling that there are strong feelings of repression, guilt, and shame on both sides; which is kind of why nobody really wants a bisexual around.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Aden said:


> Trying to cure gay is like trying to cure someone of their hair color. It's just throwing a blanket over it, repressing it, and hoping that everyone around them believes it.
> 
> 
> 
> Scan in said page(s) _with context_ or get a source, bro.



Actually psychology books did, but the APA took it out of their books in the 70's, and not because a gay gene or anything was found, but because of political pressure from the gay lobby. 

I can't stress this enough. One must remember that it was politics and not science that got it removed from the books.


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## Aden (Jun 15, 2010)

Jelly said:


> I understand there's a big shame culture around homosexuality, but I have known guys that were genuinely straight and developed to be fully homosexual (no attraction to opposite sex) over time (so why couldn't it go the other way).
> sexuality is pretty fluid and jumpy



I think that most of the opinions in this thread are regarding attempts to "pray the gay away" or the like. Sexuality is fluid and unpredictable, yes, but you can't just force some gay guy to be straight all of a sudden.



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Actually psychology books did, but the APA took it out of their books in the 70's, and not because a gay gene or anything was found, but because of political pressure from the gay lobby.
> 
> I can't stress this enough. One must remember that it was politics and not science that got it removed from the books.



We have a lot more sources than textbooks nowadays, you know.

Still waiting on that citation, Fenrir.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Aden said:


> We have a lot more sources than textbooks nowadays, you know.
> 
> Still waiting on that citation, Fenrir.



And those sources would be?


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## Lobar (Jun 15, 2010)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Actually psychology books did, but the APA took it out of their books in the 70's, and not because a gay gene or anything was found, but because of political pressure from the gay lobby.
> 
> I can't stress this enough. One must remember that it was politics and not science that got it removed from the books.


 
It was because of politics that it was in the books in the first place as well.

If there had been a scientific reason for it to stay in the DSM, it would have withstood the pressure.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Lobar said:


> It was because of politics that it was in the books in the first place as well.
> 
> If there had been a scientific reason for it to stay in the DSM, it would have withstood the pressure.



 They did, but they eventually caved. Murphy's law can be applied to this.

EDIT: And this shouldn't even be debated. It was in the books at one time, and depending on what book you read today you will get a different answer on the cause of homosexuality. Whether it be a research book approved by both APAs or a book written by psychs' that have done independent research.

This really gets down to very long and old 
"Nurture vs Nature" argument.


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## Jelly (Jun 15, 2010)

Aden said:


> I think that most of the opinions in this thread are regarding attempts to "pray the gay away" or the like. Sexuality is fluid and unpredictable, yes, but you can't just force some gay guy to be straight all of a sudden.


 
I was just saying in regards to things like semi-permanent brain chemistry, it seems fishy to buy into stuff like biological pre-orientation when people are crazy, wild, and unpredictable in their sexuality. People like to throw down genetics or hormones or other kinds of biochemistry, but a lot of hetero/homosexuality is individual development beyond biology and cultural identity. We used to think that murderers had an overabundance of epinephrine (and various amygdala shits) and that was the smoking gun. There can be people with that condition where nothing happens, and there can be people without that condition that can still be murderers. Things can develop, but there's a large amount of variation in human behaviors.
so, i just kind of don't like when people pull the determinism card on hetero/homosexuality

It's really a non-issue, though, because you shouldn't have to excuse your personal sexual behavior, that's an issue with society and you shouldn't be forced to use pseudo-scientific excuses to defend such a harmless choice. Its a double-edged sword, I guess. Since, you could use it to help explain away shame cultures in Christianity for "homosexual rehabilitation," but at the same time, it legitimizes that something's "wrong" or "off" about you, and that society should continue to view homosexuals, transsexuals, etc. in a marginalized light.

As for OP, I think its possible to "rehabilitate" people by forcing them to be a part of a society they may feel is unnatural, just like a lot of people feel about society in general. Sexual identity, to a degree, is in relation to how you act. Which is partially why people are so quick to discount bisexuals (since if they only act on "one side" of the sexual equation, they might just be feeding you something; and if you're on the "opposite side" of that equation, they're just going to fall back into their behaviors even if they start dating you). I don't think it's right, personally.
but if you can rehabilitate people with "psychological problems (things that are deeply supported by biochemistry, personal identity, etc.)," you might be able to rehabilitate sexuality [i am not trying to relate sexual orientation/choice to a psychological problem, just demonstrating cultural and individual identity concerns that are incredibly deeply involved in a person's existence/individuality]
Some homosexuals claim they have been, but they're usually being interviewed under supervised Church conditions.
It would be cool if someone had papers on impartial studies
but that's pretty unlikely, i guess


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## Aden (Jun 15, 2010)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> And those sources would be?


 
Any peer-reviewed study, journal, internet or newspaper article that cites sources, etc. The school textbook arena is fraught with busybodies who want to PROTECT THE CHILDREN, but studies and journals are much more rarely repressed and almost never edited for public consumption.


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## Riv (Jun 15, 2010)

It's possible to create an ex-gay, yes, but it would violate human rights laws, I think. Basically, you'd need to use very abrasive psychotherapeutic techniques, like electroshock, and stimulation of the medial forebrain bundle, and associate those things with various sexual states, to condition them to be straight. 

Which would be both completely immoral and unnecessary.

If someone is made straight through religious pressure, it could, in extreme cases, be kind of like the light version of the aforementioned (psychotherapy) method. Mental states like _fear of eternal hellfire_ and _prayer_ can effectively resemble those induced by pain and recreational drugs. However, I figure the effect of religious pressures on sexuality would mostly be cognitive (purposeful) self-repression, rather than behaviorist conditioning.

So while it is technically possible for someone to change their sexuality "manually," it's much more likely they're just changing their outward behavior, and not their actual sexual appetite.

Of course, one should note the fact that the brain is a really funny organ, and one neuron might make the difference between a car salesman and a homicidal maniac. We occasionally lose neurons, and a neuron might replicate itself as much as once every seven years. Things change, sometimes without logical reason, and sexuality, as a product of brain activity, is subject to such change as well.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Aden said:


> Any peer-reviewed study, journal, internet or newspaper article that cites sources, etc. The school textbook arena is fraught with busybodies who want to PROTECT THE CHILDREN, but studies and journals are much more rarely repressed and almost never edited for public consumption.


 
Yeah you gotta watch out with those school text books. One tried to tell me fossil fuels caused global warming.

Do you capitalize global warming?


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## Gavrill (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm an ex-lesbian. I could go into detail, but basically I ended up getting a huge crush on one of my guyfriends.


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## Tycho (Jun 15, 2010)

Molly said:


> I'm an ex-lesbian. I could go into detail, but basically I ended up getting a huge crush on one of my guyfriends.


 
Do you still have an attraction to the same sex?


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## Gavrill (Jun 15, 2010)

Tycho said:


> Do you still have an attraction to the same sex?


 Yes. 

...Wait, I get what you mean. I guess I'm technically not an ex-homo then x3


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Molly said:


> I'm an ex-lesbian. I could go into detail, but basically I ended up getting a huge crush on one of my guyfriends.


 
Gay dreams count, too.


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 15, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Given some of your other opinions I do have serious misgivings about the quality of your education.




Yeah, screw all those classes I took...  psychology, advanced physics, government, economics, calculus, chemistry...  they're all bullshit and i'm an idiot.  You're definitely more educated than I am because we disagree and you can never be wrong.  
Amirite?


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

As new discoveries are made, they have to rewrite the texts to make it accurate

Oh yea, and I think that trauma can influence one's sexuality to some extent


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 15, 2010)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Yeah you gotta watch out with those school text books. One tried to tell me fossil fuels caused global warming.


 
Now, if the people arguing against me would have said that, I would have said "touchÃ©" and it'd be over with.  (because it doesn't take long to find out that carbon dioxide trends follow temperature trends by approximately 8 centuries...  not to mention the fact that humans produce single digit percentages of the amount of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere)

But no, they've just got to proclaim i'm wrong without giving any reasons other than their emotions and the fact that they think i'm stupid.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Now, if the people arguing against me would have said that, I would have said "touchÃ©" and it'd be over with.  (because it doesn't take long to find out that carbon dioxide trends follow temperature trends by approximately 8 centuries...  not to mention the fact that humans produce single digit percentages of the amount of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere)
> 
> But no, they've just got to proclaim i'm wrong without giving any reasons other than their emotions and the fact that they think i'm stupid.



Well I'm told it's solar activity, but that is just one of the _many _theories I have heard from people proclaiming that they're the right ones.


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## Aden (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Yeah, screw all those classes I took...  psychology, advanced physics, government, economics, calculus, chemistry...  they're all bullshit and i'm an idiot.  You're definitely more educated than I am because we disagree and you can never be wrong.
> Amirite?


 
Uh
I took all those classes in 10th grade or sooner
Doesn't really mean much


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 15, 2010)

Zontar said:


> *Most *of these "ex-gay" programs are largely religious-based. So I'm gonna have to say no, they never fucking work.


 
So naiive.


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## Glitch (Jun 15, 2010)

I always have known that I thought girls were cute.
I liked boys up until the 5th grade, then realized that it felt all too wrong. 

So, once I entered middle school, I acted more on my natural feelings.
By freshman year of HS I came out as a full-blown lesbian.  The only reason I didn't sooner was fear, because I was in a pretty anti-gay area.


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## FireFeathers (Jun 15, 2010)

I think somewhere between dozing off in my anthropology class and studying my ass off in biology, science pointed more that sexual preference was something determined in the very early stages of development  in a fetus. *brain goes fuzzy* something about the ratio of testosterone/estrogen in the system when the brain was developing leading to different channels/ brain development which eventually led to sexual orientation. I just know that they took cat-scans of a straight male brain, and a gay male brain, and the patterns were different. So if you wanna hop on the science train, that's generally the stance they take. Or at least the stance taken 2-3 years ago. 

Aaannnyways, ex-gay is a load of crap. Jebus shames you back to loving boobies.


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

FireFeathers said:


> I think somewhere between dozing off in my anthropology class and studying my ass off in biology, science pointed more that sexual preference was something determined in the very early stages of development  in a fetus. *brain goes fuzzy* something about the ratio of testosterone/estrogen in the system when the brain was developing leading to different channels/ brain development which eventually led to sexual orientation. I just know that they took cat-scans of a straight male brain, and a gay male brain, and the patterns were different. So if you wanna hop on the science train, that's generally the stance they take. Or at least the stance taken 2-3 years ago.


 This actually makes a lot of sense

I know that before, I liked guys, but then all that changed and stuff
Turns out I had some really high testosterone levels (they were causing problems) and they put me on birth control to level out those levels
And then I started liking boys again, but I still do like girls


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## Ratte (Jun 15, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> This actually makes a lot of sense
> 
> I know that before, I liked guys, but then all that changed and stuff
> Turns out I had some really high testosterone levels (they were causing problems) and they put me on birth control to level out those levels
> And then I started liking boys again, but I still do like girls


 
I have really high testosterone levels too.  o/


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Ratte said:


> I have really high testosterone levels too.  o/


 Go hormonal imbalances


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## Thatch (Jun 15, 2010)

Ratte said:


> I have really high testosterone levels too.  o/


 
You'll grow a moustage, like Gordito :V


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## 8-bit (Jun 15, 2010)

Ratte said:


> I have really high testosterone levels too.  o/


 
You're gonna go bald


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## Thatch (Jun 15, 2010)

8-bit said:


> You're gonna go bald


 
It's so silly. Testosterone makes facial hair grow, while the one on the scalp falls out.


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## Ratte (Jun 15, 2010)

I have really long, thick, throbbing strong hair.  I'm good.  :3


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 15, 2010)

Ratte said:


> I have really high testosterone levels too.  o/


 
How do you know?


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> How do you know?


 It makes your body go derp if you're a girl


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## Tewin Follow (Jun 15, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> It makes your body go derp if you're a girl


 
Suddenly: harbls!


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## Tally (Jun 15, 2010)

While its certainly possible, those religious programs are not what cause it.

"You will like female. You WILL LIKE FEMALES."


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## Ratte (Jun 15, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> How do you know?


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/articles/testosterone.shtml

"Higher testosterone exposure is thought to lead to a longer ring finger. This is determined as early as 14 weeks into a pregnancy.

On average, women's index and ring fingers are almost equal in length because they are exposed to less testosterone. In men, the ring finger tends to be longer because they have higher testosterone levels. In general, women exposed to more testosterone have more 'masculine hands' â€“ ie longer ring fingers."


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Also causes increase in body hair yes? Or is that more PCOS?


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## Jashwa (Jun 15, 2010)

ITT: Ratte has man hands.


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## Ratte (Jun 15, 2010)

Jashwa said:


> ITT: Ratte has man hands.


 
I do!

I'd rather have man hands than lady hands.


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## Kaine Wuff (Jun 15, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LIEK A GIRLZ, YOU ARE GAY NO MATTER WHAT.
> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN BOY AND GIRL, YOU'RE LIKELY TO CONSIDER BISEXUALITY, HOMOSEXUALITY, AND HETEROSEXUALITY.
> IF UR A BOY AND YOUR BRAIN IS LEIK A BOY, THEN IF UR GAY, IT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU DECIDED TO BE.



Pretty textbook answer, but sadly, life doesn't go by the books. I have heard about this train of thought before, and there may be some merit to it. Let me just ask this though:

What if you're male with a feminine brain construct, and you happen to meet a woman with a masculine brain pattern/personality/soul/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it, or vice versa?

Predicting someone's sexuality purely based on concieved notions of their "masculinity" or "femininity" isn't ever going to be textbook accurate.



Ratte said:


> "Higher testosterone exposure is thought to lead to a longer ring finger. This is determined as early as 14 weeks into a pregnancy.
> 
> On average, women's index and ring fingers are almost equal in length because they are exposed to less testosterone. In men, the ring finger tends to be longer because they have higher testosterone levels. In general, women exposed to more testosterone have more 'masculine hands' â€“ ie longer ring fingers."



Not to invalidate your reply, but I swear that whole 'OH LOOK, YOU HAVE A LONGER RING FINGER, THAT MEANS SOMETHING' thing is brought up waaaay too often, on too many subjects.

That being said, my ring finger is shorter. So in my case, there may be some truth to it.


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## Tally (Jun 15, 2010)

Kaine Wuff said:


> Pretty textbook answer, but sadly, life doesn't go by the books.



I think he was joking.


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Tally said:


> I think he was joking.


 He's speaking in internet layman's terms


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## RayO_ElGatubelo (Jun 15, 2010)

Man, Willow is starting to look like a funny-lookin' girl visually from what I'm hearing.


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

RayO_ElGatubelo said:


> Man, Willow is starting to look like a funny-lookin' girl visually from what I'm hearing.


 I will end you


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## Tally (Jun 15, 2010)

RayO_ElGatubelo said:


> Man, Willow is starting to look like a funny-lookin' girl visually from what I'm hearing.


 
Watch your back... You can't even tell if the person who will kill you is male or female! And Willow, just joking :<


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## Willow (Jun 15, 2010)

Tally said:


> Watch your back... You can't even tell if the person who will kill you is male or female! And Willow, just joking :<


 i c wut u did thar

..sleep with one eye open


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## Spawtsie Paws (Jun 15, 2010)

...sleep with your butt in the air.


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## Tally (Jun 15, 2010)

HAXX said:


> ...sleep with your butt in the air.


 
Oh murr, only when it's not already sore.


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## Blitz (Jun 15, 2010)

This topic reminds me of a friend. You know when gays still think their straight, but they think it doesn't feel right? Well my friend was always gay, he thought it was natural, but he always felt having sex with man doesn't feel right. So he tried having sex with a female, and presto his straight and date guys anymore.


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## Pliio8 (Jun 15, 2010)

Through delusions... yeah. But sexuality, IMO, is a biochemical reaction that only changes when you're 1 - 25, after that its about as static as your growth.


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## Ozriel (Jun 15, 2010)

Akro said:


> You can never undo anal sex.


 
What has been done, canot be "un-done".

But there are Ex-gays and ex-Lesbos..they are just kidding themselves.


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## slydude851 (Jun 15, 2010)

The words "ex-gay" really made me think about how greatly mental rehabilitation works for sexual predators...


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## AstralMiasma (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. The title of your post indicated you are questioning whether or not individuals exist who once identified as gay but now identify as straight. Then you bring a completely different hurdle into the obstacle course--religion. I'll save religion for a completely different discussion--unless you're hellbent on making it relevant to this topic. Can someone be gay then turn straight? No. If someone was, at one time, exclusively homosexual and engaged in relationships with members of the same sex only, and now is exclusively heterosexual and engages in relationships with members of the opposite sex only, this simply demonstrates that the individual in question is truly bisexual, ambisexual, or pansexual, and that they possess a higher degree of sexual fluidity than most individuals. Time, place, environment, and alcohol all play equally significant roles in what gender relations an individual is willing, consciously or unconsciously, to entertain. Sexual orientation is neither clear cut nor is it black and white. Arguments have been made and field studies conducted which contest that no one is completely straight. Prisoners who may have identified as heterosexual, may, over enough time, engage in homosexual intercourse in a jail environment. So to answer your question, I would say they don't exist. If a person demonstrated at different points in their life the ability to be with both genders, it means that they are sexually fluid and nothing more.


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## GoldenJackal (Jun 15, 2010)

No.


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## Tycho (Jun 16, 2010)

AstralMiasma said:


> HUEGTEXTBLOCK


 
paragraph plz?


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## Shiroka (Jun 16, 2010)

We should have a poll about this, to see how many FAFers think liking the cock is a choice. *

I think one of the biggest problem we have concerning this question is our ambiguous definition of "sexuality"; if it's exclusively what you fuck with, you can obviously change it whenever you want, even though you probably won't exactly enjoy it. If it's just your personal desires and natural attraction, it can't, unless you get some wacky brain surgery or something, and unfortunately we're still not there yet... and anyway it would be ironic to do so since it would then become unnatural, considering nature made you gay to begin with =P

* liking the cock is not a choice but licking it is. It's crazy what one letter can do sometimes.


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## Tycho (Jun 16, 2010)

Something just occurred to me: there are indeed ex-gays.

They're called deceased people.  They're ex-everything.


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## Shiroka (Jun 16, 2010)

Tycho said:


> Something just occurred to me: there are indeed ex-gays.
> 
> They're called deceased people.  They're ex-everything.


 
Technically they still are whatever they were back when they were alive, they're just now globally disabled, if you will.

But it's true I've yet to see gay zombies... unless we're talking about this: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/3130173


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## 8-bit (Jun 16, 2010)

Harebelle said:


> How do you know?


 
 Her hair is falling out :V



Shiroka said:


> I've yet to see gay zombies...



Hi


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## Redregon (Jun 16, 2010)

i really don't think that furries would be expert on this matter given that there are an abnormal number whom are "jailhouse" gay.

in that light, if someone is a situational homosexual, yeah, i can see them switching teams fairly easily. if someone's born with it, i can't see it being possible without them fostering a very sad and depressing mindset of repression.


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## Shiroka (Jun 16, 2010)

8-bit said:


> Hi


 
So instead of being after brains, you're after cocks? :V


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## RayO_ElGatubelo (Jun 16, 2010)

Redregon said:


> i really don't think that furries would be expert on this matter given that there are an abnormal number whom are "jailhouse" gay.


What do you mean, "jailhouse" gay?


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## Redregon (Jun 16, 2010)

RayO_ElGatubelo said:


> What do you mean, "jailhouse" gay?


 
situational homosexuality. google is your friend.


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## Aden (Jun 16, 2010)

RayO_ElGatubelo said:


> What do you mean, "jailhouse" gay?


 
I-can't-get-a-girlfriend gay


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> He's speaking in internet layman's terms


Indeed I was.



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Well I'm told it's solar activity, but that is just one of the _many _theories I have heard from people proclaiming that they're the right ones.


But a textbook asserting that one theory is absolutely true without presenting any of the alternatives (I know for a fact that my physics textbook did) is somewhat...  counterproductive...



Aden said:


> Uh
> I took all those classes in 10th grade or sooner
> Doesn't really mean much


 He brought into question my education.  It doesn't mean much but it was relevant.

I would have also mentioned taking 3 years of Japanese if I was trying to "mean" something.


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

To the people asking for a citation: that has nothing to do with the validity of my argument.  I haven't been trying to prove you wrong, and my original post opened with "I think." 

I suggest you'd suppress your emotions for once and accept that I have an opinion that differs from yours, just as you want me to accept your opinions without asking you for a citation.  Got it?  I was trying to keep the discussion going.  If it's really that important to you that I prove the validity of my argument, you must be new to the internet.


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## Aden (Jun 16, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> I would have also mentioned taking 3 years of Japanese if I was trying to "mean" something.


 
Why? That doesn't mean anything.


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## Jashwa (Jun 16, 2010)

Aden said:


> Why? That doesn't mean anything.


 Taking 3 years of Japanese turns you into a genius. 

It's not just like taking 3 years of any normal language.


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

It means that...

I > most weaboos.

(and I didn't mention it before because it's irrelevant.)


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## Aleu (Jun 16, 2010)

Ex-gays don't exist.
It's either denial/repression
or bisexuality.


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> Ex-gays don't exist.
> It's either denial/repression
> or bisexuality.


 
(in a high pitched voice) Who's the closed minded one?  You are!  You are!


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## Aleu (Jun 16, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> (in a high pitched voice) Who's the closed minded one?  You are!  You are!


 I'm closed-minded to idiocy.
Just because someone says "I'M NOT GAY ANYMORE GUYS!!! HUR HUR!" Does not make it so.


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## Takun (Jun 16, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Take psychology.  Brain structure for females and males is typically different, and gays/lesbians tend to have the "wrong" brains for their gender.  Straight males and lesbian females tend to have better spacial reasoning skills than gay males and straight females.  Straight females and gay males, on the other hand, have better intuition.


 

This is pages back, but you paraphrased it incorrectly and the study was never done for lesbians.  It also was only a correlative link, so take that with a grain of salt.

/Mine was college level psychology which I majored in for awhile.

For anyone curious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LeVay

His findings have been really questioned, though more scans and stuff are starting to fall in line with his findings.  It must be stressed the findings are the cause or the effect or even merely correlative.


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

Takun said:


> This is pages back, but you paraphrased it incorrectly and the study was never done for lesbians.


 
Not brain structure, but a study was done on spatial reasoning ability.  Lesbians tended to have spatial reasoning ability more in line with straight males than with straight females.

I just decided to connect the dots a bit...


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

Jashwa said:


> How'd you manage that?


 
No clue, but I'd appreciate it if the mods cleaned up my mess there...


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## Willow (Jun 16, 2010)

Did Fenrir break this thread with logic?


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 16, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> Did Fenrir break this thread with logic?


 
I think I broke the server.


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## Willow (Jun 16, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> I think I broke the server.


 No, that was Nylak

On topic though: I think I stated this before, but some people (especially women) become gay or straight through some sort of trauma with the previous sex

If that makes sense


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## Fenrir Lupus (Jun 17, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> No, that was Nylak
> 
> On topic though: I think I stated this before, but some people (especially women) become gay or straight through some sort of trauma with the previous sex
> 
> If that makes sense


 Trauma does lots of things that otherwise wouldn't make sense...  I know someone who has plenty of stories about that...  But I refuse to talk in depth about my real life friends in forums...


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## Shiroka (Jun 17, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Trauma does lots of things that otherwise wouldn't make sense...  I know someone who has plenty of stories about that...  But I refuse to talk in depth about my real life friends in forums...


 
I'd like to think traumatizing experiences like molestation is what often leads to castration fetishes :V

That must be the most ironic fetish ever by the way. I mean, wow...


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## Glitch (Jun 17, 2010)

Shiroka said:


> I'd like to think traumatizing experiences like molestation is what often leads to castration fetishes :V
> 
> That must be the most ironic fetish ever by the way. I mean, wow...


 
Ouch.
If I had balls, they'd be hurting right now.


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## Yrr (Jun 17, 2010)

People who claim to be ex-gay:
Were never gay to begin with
Were bisexual all along
Were asexual all along
Are still gay, but are in denial
Are still gay, but associate men with bad and women with good, or vice versa (post-therapy ex-gays)


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## Get-dancing (Jun 17, 2010)

Yes because for most of the part sexuality is down to enviroment.


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## Aden (Jun 17, 2010)

Get-dancing said:


> Yes because for most of the part sexuality is down to enviroment.


 
oh boy it's get-dancing


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## Enwon (Jun 17, 2010)

Sexuality is a complicated study that nobody understands.  Ex-gays may or may not exist.  The only thing really known is that sexuality is not a choice.


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