# I need to know if it's possible to start a petition...



## ToferTheAkita (Aug 27, 2013)

You see, from what I've learned recently, FA have forbid any and all Gmod pics being posted on here, cause apparently, the stuff they post here doesn't belong to them cause of the models they're using!

Let me quote a line from a user who commented on a Gmod pic: "I mean, if you were the original creator of this model then that'd be understandable (but still against the AUP since it's an in-game screenshot), but not only did you not make this model, but you've done all this in a map not made by you in a game also not made by you. The only thing you have truly done is manipulated stuff and then printscreened it. Submitting art here implies that you are the original creator of the work, or at least got permission from the original creators, which I can guarantee you didn't. There is hardly anything made by you in this picture, as well as other stuff you've uploaded"

Ok, understandable, but the thing is though, wouldn't that basically be the same for Drawn Fanarts as well? I'll explain, you know how we usually like to draw characters from shows or movies or even comics, like the ponies from MLP:FiM, Sonic The Hedgehog, Mario, the Disney characters, and all of the rest that we love to draw? Well, think about this. We draw them, manipulate their looks, bodies and such, and posted them on here and/or on DA, but the problem is, those characters we drew doesn't belong to us, we are not the original creators of those characters! Sure we put down something like, "This is copyrighted to their respective owners" and crap like that, but regardless, did we really get permission from the companies to draw them? No, but they allowed us to draw them though, cause they knew we loved those characters and such! Same goes for Gmod, that creative game allows us to use models that we like, and manipulate them in own own creative ways! So basically, Gmod is like art too!

All I'm saying is that the admins are KINDA being hypocrites here, considering that drawn fanarts are the same as Gmod in a way! So, I don't know what we should do, but SOMETHING needs to happen. We need to like....I don't know, can we start a petition or something? Can we start some kind of petition to overthrow the AUP and cause the admins to have no choice but to allow Gmod pics in FA forever? Is it possible? 

BTW, this is my first time here, so I apologize if this is in the wrong category!


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## BRN (Aug 27, 2013)

I think the problem here is the "artistic quality" of Gmod snapshots. I can't see a problem with creating original art using that medium - but I also just can't see how you could achieve it.

I think you're missing the point with your second paragraph. Drawn fanart takes reference from a character that already exists, sure, but it creates original work of that character. This is substantially different to 'posing' a pre-rendered model - and as you said, "not only did you not make this model, but you've done all this in a map not made by you in a game also not made by you."

About what you said about hypocrisy, consider the fact that 'traced' work is banned, even if it's traced from drawn fanart, and that people can't upload direct copies or 'eyeballs' of other art, official or otherwise.

In reality, judging whether or not something is interesting (artistically) is about how much artistic credit can be given to the creator. The sum total of what you can do in GMod is pose models - - and I'm sure you can make an interesting scene out of posing lots of models, but it's hardly artistic, just like tracing.

Just to make it clear, that's also the difference between posing and drawn fanart - - it's not about how original the idea is, it's about how much of it is an original creation.


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## Etiainen (Aug 27, 2013)

FA's screenshot policy is under revision.

However, there's a big gap between taking pre-existing models and manipulating a scene from them, and drawing something based on another design from scratch. GMOD screenshots are banned for the same reason the uploading the SEGA logo by itself is banned: You didn't make it.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

Kinda hard to start a petition if it's only one person? You should have had the petition first if the interest is so high and brought it in as part of your case.

You can make all the explanation you want but do remember it's a privately run website, if the owner decides to ban purple monkeys because it's offensive to the tastes. I suppose we can argue about it but in the end it is their website. You can either not donate to it or find another spot. 

There are still many places and more appropriate and themed to host such content. In addition, FA's policies are constantly under revision to be perfectly honest. This is because definition of what is acceptable art is changing as technology progresses, but some things are certain. If you didn't make it you need to show considerable effort in creating your own works it is likely it will be rejected. It's one thing to make something look authentic by borrowing a logo for some artwork or at least creating fanart you're doing our own work. (Traces are not considered acceptable anyways).


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## ToferTheAkita (Aug 27, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> FA's screenshot policy is under revision.
> 
> However, there's a big gap between taking pre-existing models and manipulating a scene from them, and drawing something based on another design from scratch. GMOD screenshots are banned for the same reason the uploading the SEGA logo by itself is banned: You didn't make it.



I guess, but the artists who used Gmod to manipulate the models and such in an artistic, creative way, should be allowed! I mean, if it was just a flat out pic of something that you didn't do anything to it, and just posting it on FA, like this, for example: http://collider.com/uploads/imageGa...n_origins_wolverine_video_game_image__11_.jpg Then, THOSE kind of video game screenshots shouldn't be allowed on here, but if it's something from a video game that allows you to create things artistic, like these: http://derpicdn.net/img/2013/8/26/411554/full.jpg , http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11298495/,  and let not forget the ones we've seen in youtube like this particular one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofxmHlAjLs4 There are a lot of Gmod videos like this, some are great, some are bad, and some are just flat out lazy and pathetic! ^^; But ultimately, all of these that you have seen were creative and artistic, and that what should matter! Those kind of pics should be allowed cause people enjoy seeing them, whether it was used for a fetish, used for entertainment, or just used to show off your creativity and skills! Regardless, Gmod is, whether the FA admins like it or not, an art program, much like Photoshop, Sai, Blender, and many others, despite the models, maps, and other things in Gmod not belonging to us and such!

I'm not trying to allow everyone to post video game screenshots and all, I'm jsut only wanting Gmod to be allowed, cause there're some artists out there that don't know how to draw, or aren't any good at drawing, or wanting to try something new! In these cases, they go to Gmod and they get creative with their ideas on what to do with the models, maps, and other shit on there! When they show their Gmod skills off to people, either on DA or FA or even youtube, people can comment on it, they can rate it, see how well you did, much like the drawn artworks! I'm jsut saying that it seems unfair for the admins to forbid artists who has creative and artistic skills on Gmod to post their hard works on FA!


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> I'm not trying to allow everyone to post video game screenshots and all, I'm jsut only wanting Gmod to be allowed, cause there're some artists out there that don't know how to draw, or aren't any good at drawing, or wanting to try something new! In these cases, they go to Gmod and they get creative with their ideas on what to do with the models, maps, and other shit on there! When they show their Gmod skills off to people, either on DA or FA or even youtube, people can comment on it, they can rate it, see how well you did, much like the drawn artworks! I'm jsut saying that it seems unfair for the admins to forbid artists who has creative and artistic skills on Gmod to post their hard works on FA!



You know how you learn how to draw? You practice. FA shouldn't be allowing these kind of cases because people don't want to put in the time nor practice on working on crafts that ARE allowed on the site? The results come out bad when you draw? Guess what, it's like that for most of us Artists, be it musicians, writers etc... 

That's completely unfair that you want to give people shortcuts and ignore the fact that the above takes work.


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## ToferTheAkita (Aug 27, 2013)

Shortcuts? How can Gmod be a shortcut? Besides, it's not THAT simple to make something in Gmod! Hell, the examples I posted above, I can tell they put some work into it cause, seriously, while I don't have Gmod, I can tell the things they do to the models and such, especially if it involves fetishes, is not a easy thing to do! I'm sure it must take some work and such! And true, practice makes perfect, but there are some people who perfer to keep their style! For example, people like me tend to only use photoshop to show off our artistic skills, others uses Sai or Blender. Everyone have their own quirks in art, and Gmod is no different. I'm not trying to be unfair, but I AM trying to be fair to all of the Gmod artists who are great with their creativity and such in it, and bring them the justice that they deserve!


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 27, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> but if it's something from a video game that allows you to create things artistic, like these: http://derpicdn.net/img/2013/8/26/411554/full.jpg , http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11298495/



No. No, that's the opposite of uncreative. Not just uncreative, but something like anti-creative.



ToferTheAkita said:


> Regardless, Gmod is, whether the FA admins like it or not



Ah, well, you see, there's the small matter of _this being their site_. So in the end what they want to allow or not is all that matters.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> Shortcuts? How can Gmod be a shortcut? Besides, it's not THAT simple to make something in Gmod! Hell, the examples I posted above, I can tell they put some work into it cause, seriously, while I don't have Gmod, I can tell the things they do to the models and such, especially if it involves fetishes, is not a easy thing to do! I'm sure it must take some work and such! And true, practice makes perfect, but there are some people who perfer to keep their style! For example, people like me tend to only use photoshop to show off our artistic skills, others uses Sai or Blender. Everyone have their own quirks in art, and Gmod is no different. I'm not trying to be unfair, but I AM trying to be fair to all of the Gmod artists who are great with their creativity and such in it, and bring them the justice that they deserve!



I'm gonna wait to see how often you'll make this argument after you actually put in the amount of practice in actual art not allowing someone to take a shortcut so they can be called an artist. Programs have nothing to do with the skills and this "it's my style" is not an argument. 

It's also not easy to complete and beat games, but that doesn't make one an artist does it?

Even photography and film takes a lot of personal investment into their own equipment and trial and error.


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## Smelge (Aug 27, 2013)

People spend a lot of time learning and drawing art. They post it to FA and it vanishes off the frontpage because some inconsiderate knucklefuck has just dumped some gmod, Second Life or Poser stuff.

People spend years working on and improving their art. You on the other hand take a game or program where someone else has done all the fucking work to create the assets, and do nothing more than dick around with sliders and poses for a few minutes, then post it claiming it to be art. It's not claimed to be art? Well this is an art site. Fuck off and go do something creative that you've made, not adjusted someone elses work.

Gmod should be banned.

Poser should be banned.

Daz3d should be banned.

Secondlife should be banned.

And while we're at it, babyfurs should be hit over the head with a shovel and dumped in a reservoir, then banned.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

I am just gonna post this here because I have to admit I'm actually perturbed that Photoshop is now considered a "Style preference"

Photoshop is a *work method* - it has nothing to do with style.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2714309/







I did these with different art programs, and many didn't know which was which.


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## ToferTheAkita (Aug 27, 2013)

Whatever, I see there's no convincing you, so I guess my petition journal on Furaffinity will have to handle this travesty! So far, I've gotten two people supporting this, and sooner or later, it'll multiply into 10, then 20 more, then 30 more, till it gets so overloaded with comments supporting my petition, that the FA Admins will have no choice but to allow Gmod in FA, and then and only then, will justice be served and everything in the world will be right again for every Gmod artists out there that want to show off their creativity to the world!


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 27, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> travesty!
> the FA Admins will have no choice but to allow Gmod in FA, and then and only then, will justice be served and everything in the world will be right again



Have you tried tumblr? You'll fit right in with the social justice warriors.


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## PheagleAdler (Aug 27, 2013)

Smelge said:


> And while we're at it, babyfurs should be hit over the head with a shovel and dumped in a reservoir, then banned.



Um...no. One of my favorite artists does babyfur work and although it doesn't appeal to me, there's no reason to ban them because YOU don't like the art.


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## Shinxtails (Aug 27, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> Whatever, I see there's no convincing you, so I guess my petition journal on Furaffinity will have to handle this travesty! So far, I've gotten two people supporting this, and sooner or later, it'll multiply into 10, then 20 more, then 30 more, till it gets so overloaded with comments supporting my petition, that the FA Admins will have no choice but to allow Gmod in FA, and then and only then, will justice be served and everything in the world will be right again for every Gmod artists out there that want to show off their creativity to the world!



Have you never heard of photobucket or tumblr before? I take it you haven't as you seem to think you're right about something that you have no say in, any shape or form. Ane you do know petitions wouldn't do jack nothing because, you know, the mods can easily go in, delete it, banned your ass and everyone will forget that you was ever around here, right? So, keep thinking you're doing the right thing because this is very funny for me.


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## Sutekh_the_Destroyer (Aug 27, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> Um...no. One of my favorite artists does babyfur work and although it doesn't appeal to me, there's no reason to ban them because YOU don't like the art.



I think he's talking about babyfur fetishists, not anybody who happens to draw furries in their infantile stage.

And OP, you're going to need something like 900,000 supporters to get the FA admin's attention. And even then they won't change the rules. Unless you've created the models and maps and everything else yourself then you can't call anything done in Gmod your "own".


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## Smelge (Aug 27, 2013)

"YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME SO I SHALL DEPLOY GIFS TO PROVE YOU WRONG"


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

I deleted the gifs as they don't add to the site conversation and made their argument worse as it looked like trolling.

The OP has ignored previously mentioned advice and spammed with multiple threads on the subject.

I specifically said, go contact people who are actually being affected and come in with a petition, not solo warrior and spam the forums.

If you continue this I'll delete the thread.


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## RTDragon (Aug 27, 2013)

Why can't you at least take the time to practice instead of relying on a shortcut. I mean your really wasting time with the petition you can at least post them on other sites.  I actually use a game program namely RPG Maker XP (as well as VX/Ace) and even that is not easy especially if you want to add custom graphics. And i actually do both traditional and digital art.


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## Shinxtails (Aug 27, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Why can't you at least take the time to practice instead of relying on a shortcut. I mean your really wasting time with the petition you can at least post them on other sites.  I actually use a game program namely RPG Maker XP (as well as VX/Ace) and even that is not easy especially if you want to add custom graphics. And i actually do both traditional and digital art.



I'll have to back RTDragon on this - using RPG maker VX/Ace (or any other RPG maker games for that matter) is very hard because you have to make your own spites for game if you don't want to use the given ones that came with it. You have to find sound files for BGS or sound effects when X thing(s) happen. Making titlesets for your game where the PC and NPC walks on/into/past/around. This goes with stories - a lot of it if you want a deep storyline.

Overall, trying to make a game is very hard and it takes a lot of time/work/money to make. I hope it goes well for ya.


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## RTDragon (Aug 27, 2013)

Also one factor i did not mention is RGSS. (Ruby Game Scripting System) Which if you never scripted before is very challenging. (Even i still am trying to figure out over time by editing the default scripts slowly over the years) And XP is RGSS. VX is RGSS2 and VXAce is RGSS3. And this is someone who has also played with the console rpg maker 1, 2, and 3.  And the most powerful of them all is RPG Maker 2 (Tsukuru 5) on the PS2 which is in 3D and has a very steep learning curve.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

True, but game scripting/creation is another animal and if I remember correctly even most of it is not allowed on FA for obvious reasons, but there are forums dedicated to the subject and places to release them. Reason I say most, is that I have seen small Flash games that follow the limit posted on the site. 

Even if FA's rules on what's allowed can be really quirky at times, I still think it's fair not to allow poser kind stuff where you didn't create a significant portion of the content and it wasn't made specifically for you.  For example, I can see someone who made outfits for these models using a Poser model (because they made the clothes, but need the model to show off the content properly), but if a Gmod only creates scenes and not actual content you made from scratch I don't think it fits in the site.


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## Stratelier (Aug 27, 2013)

Here's a five-second analogy on the difference between 'posing' (Gmod) and 'drawing' (traditional/digital art):

"choreography director" vs. "costume designer".


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## Verin Asper (Aug 27, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> True, but game scripting/creation is another animal and if I remember correctly even most of it is not allowed on FA for obvious reasons, but there are forums dedicated to the subject and places to release them. Reason I say most, is that I have seen small Flash games that follow the limit posted on the site.
> 
> Even if FA's rules on what's allowed can be really quirky at times, I still think it's fair not to allow poser kind stuff where you didn't create a significant portion of the content and it wasn't made specifically for you.  For example, I can see someone who made outfits for these models using a Poser model (because they made the clothes, but need the model to show off the content properly), but if a Gmod only creates scenes and not actual content you made from scratch I don't think it fits in the site.


...
Dont we have a rule stating you could use specific mediums if said mediums are being used for telling a story.
And I'm still wanting to fix back up the SL rules, I'm seeing too many people going back to posting "heres me at the club" instead of "heres the avatar I have and what work I did towards/on it" where some cases the "heres me at the club" gets an ok, but the "here is the avatar work I did" can get removed somehow...
I really wish the admins are on the same wavelength/page instead of the same spectrum/chapter.


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## ToferTheAkita (Aug 27, 2013)

You know, just to let everyone know, I'm NOT a Gmod user, I don't even have Gmod, I draw arts on FA. I'm just doing this to to help out those who are Gmod users...

And I've come to accept that Gmod cannot be on here, rules are rules, even though they suck most of the time...


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> ...
> Dont we have a rule stating you could use specific mediums if said mediums are being used for telling a story.
> And I'm still wanting to fix back up the SL rules, I'm seeing too many people going back to posting "heres me at the club" instead of "heres the avatar I have and what work I did towards/on it" where some cases the "heres me at the club" gets an ok, but the "here is the avatar work I did" can get removed somehow...
> I really wish the admins are on the same wavelength/page instead of the same spectrum/chapter.



I think if I remember correctly a comic using screenshots was allowed because the person "wrote the script", which is confusing imo. 
With SL I agree, there is quite a bit of work in Avatar creation, but when it's just SL screenshots of character @ X place, it shouldn't be allowed.

Like I said there's no doubt that the rules are quirky and more so because of people crying over what defines art, and not being "able to participate" in uploads because DA, X site, and Y site do it. 

I mean I wish it was as simple as

"You drew it, without copying or eyeballing someone's illustration - without credit or permission" that's ok
"You sculpted this, in a program or with traditional means that's ok"
"You sewed/seamed this, it's also ok"
"You photographed and took the necessary precautions to make it photography, and not just - stuff you have etc that's ok"
"If your friend or client specifically made this for, you, you're allowed to post it"


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## Trpdwarf (Aug 27, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> You know, just to let everyone know, I'm NOT a Gmod user, I don't even have Gmod, I draw arts on FA. I'm just doing this to to help out those who are Gmod users...
> 
> And I've come to accept that Gmod cannot be on here, rules are rules, even though they suck most of the time...



Okay this has gone far enough. Knock it off with the pessimistic attitude. Rules exist for a reason, and good reasons at that. They don't suck just because you don't agree with it.
What you and other people need to remember is that FA is a free website for you and all of your friends that use it. We try to foster as much freedom as we can when it comes to what people upload but there are always going to be lines that are going to be drawn. In case you have not noticed every site has it's own rules and restrictions. 

This is an art site. We promote artists. We prefer to have rules that support real artists who do real work. Now that said it's not the end of the world if your friends cannot upload Gmod here. There is always the option to load it to a host that allows it, and then cross link the gallery to one's profile info, or via journal. That way it can still be shared, and doesn't violate our site policy/rules.


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## Smelge (Aug 27, 2013)

OP, you have forgotten to call us trolls for not agreeing with you.

You should fix that.


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## RTDragon (Aug 27, 2013)

Also the fact that OP here has made a journal about this before he deleted it. If it's alright i will be happy to post the screencap on what it exactly says.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> This is an art site. We promote artists. We prefer to have rules that support real artists who do real work. Now that said it's not the end of the world if your friends cannot upload Gmod here. There is always the option to load it to a host that allows it, and then cross link the gallery to one's profile info, or via journal. That way it can still be shared, and doesn't violate our site policy/rules.



The odd thing is, people can learn to draw. They can post their attempts and get critiques on learning how to get better. Even if someone is of poor skill there's practically nothing in FA's rules that says one cannot post.

The difference is, *people want attention for their work* or only good results to be uploaded. (I mean specifically for the ego of the user his/herself) It's a judgement call if their work is good but I've yet to see FA admins really step in and ban a user from posting (other than spam/troll art) for making bad results.

Nothing is stopping people from practicing and posting bad results asking for help, in fact the forums encourage people to create their own sketchbooks as long as it follows the forum rules and people have posted from their FA accounts for help in drawing. 

So in my opinion, people need to stop crying over not being successful and look for ways to cheat the system, knuckle down and get real followings by showing you actually want to do the work.

Granted, I'm not gonna deny for other parts of art, like say fursuit creation will have the same freedom since it also has to work with the photography rules, but at least drawing is the simplest way of uploading artwork.


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## ToferTheAkita (Aug 27, 2013)

Yeah, I did, but I deleted it cause I came to the conclusion that the rules are right, even if they kinda sucks sometimes.

I'm also requesting that this thread be closed and locked plz since the petition is canceled and all...


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## RTDragon (Aug 27, 2013)

Well tofer why not make a sketchbook thread here i am sure people will help you.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 27, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Well tofer why not make a sketchbook thread here i am sure people will help you.



If I'm reading this thread correctly, he's arguing for a friend...not himself.
In which case it still applies. Why not have the friend post up work so at least people can help him improve. You can't improve by *not drawing*.


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## Verin Asper (Aug 27, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> The odd thing is, people can learn to draw. They can post their attempts and get critiques on learning how to get better. Even if someone is of poor skill there's practically nothing in FA's rules that says one cannot post.
> 
> The difference is, *people want attention for their work* or only good results to be uploaded. (I mean specifically for the ego of the user his/herself) It's a judgement call if their work is good but I've yet to see FA admins really step in and ban a user from posting (other than spam/troll art) for making bad results.
> 
> ...


True, its why along with Doing mod work for avatars I took up learning how to be a colorist (which has ties to me doing mod work for avatars cause you have to do the Texture work on those avatars for SL) It works together for me cause if I get better at coloring art I then in turn get better at doing texture work on SL


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## Armaetus (Sep 8, 2013)

So he is arguing for something by proxy (for friend) then, why doesn't he or she come here and post this and not the OP?


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## Teal (Sep 8, 2013)

Glaice said:


> So he is arguing for something by proxy (for friend) then, why doesn't he or she come here and post this and not the OP?


 The friend thing is a lie.


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## Etiainen (Sep 8, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> So in my opinion,* people need to stop crying over not being successful and look for ways to cheat the system*...


And that's why we haven't banned Stream advertisements yet.


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## FireFeathers (Sep 14, 2013)

ToferTheAkita said:


> Yeah, I did, but I deleted it cause I came to the conclusion that the rules are right, even if they kinda sucks sometimes.
> 
> I'm also requesting that this thread be closed and locked plz since the petition is canceled and all...



False alarm, folks! Put down your burning torches and pitchforks- rebellion's canceled.  Everyone go home.  Mod your dissatisfaction with the world, we'll reconvene on monday.


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