# Teenagers shoot jogging baseball player "because they were bored"



## CaptainCool (Aug 20, 2013)

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...urder-in-ballplayers-killing-in-oklahoma?lite

Two teens age 15 and 16 were bored, so they decided to gun down a random jogger. What the bloody hell. Do I even need to say more?
They killed him. Because they were _bored_. 'Merica! Fix your shit!

They are also being charged with first degree murder, a third teenager is being charged as beeing an "accessory to murder" as well. They are charging them as adults, not as kids. So depending on the sentences their lifes are essentially over. They go to jail, get back out and then they are pretty much doomed to fail in our society. Awesome! One guy dead, four lifes ruined in total! Neat.

And then there is another thing I find weird, but this is about the american media system...
No american news sites show their photos. You know, like they usually do in every other murder case. But the australian news sites (the baseball player was australian) DO show their faces.
The two teens who are being charged with murder are black. Why is it that when Zimmermann shot Martin his face was all over the internet but no one shows photos of these kids even though they admitted that they shot someone because they were bored?
I just find this interesting because it tells me that America still has some things to learn when it comes to racism. That for some reason this still is a hot topic even though it really shouldn't be.


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## PastryOfApathy (Aug 20, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> And then there is another thing I find weird, but this is about the american media system...
> No american news sites show their photos. You know, like they usually do in every other murder case. But the australian news sites (the baseball player was australian) DO show their faces.
> The two teens who are being charged with murder are black. Why is it that when Zimmermann shot Martin his face was all over the internet but no one shows photos of these kids even though they admitted that they shot someone because they were bored?
> I just find this interesting because it tells me that America still has some things to learn when it comes to racism. That for some reason this still is a hot topic even though it really shouldn't be.



It has to do more to do with some of the backlash from the coverage of the Boston bombing and some of the other shootings, where people have accused the media of "glamorizing" the killers by showing their faces causing many to opt to focus on the victims. Also you linked to MSNBC which is unashamedly liberal and hosts famous race baiter Al Sharpton so of course they won't show the killers to avoid him going on a racial tangent like he did with the whole Trayvon Martin debacle.


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## CaptainCool (Aug 20, 2013)

PastryOfApathy said:


> It has to do more to do with some of the backlash from the coverage of the Boston bombing and some of the other shootings, where people have accused the media of "glamorizing" the killers by showing their faces causing many to opt to focus on the victims. Also you linked to MSNBC which is unashamedly liberal and hosts famous race baiter Al Sharpton so of course they won't show the killers to avoid him going on a racial tangent like he did with the whole Trayvon Martin debacle.



Did they stop posting photos like this all together then? This is just something I noticed because usually photos of suspects are all over those articles!

Edit: Haha, this is fucking awesome! First I made a rant complaining about annoying turkish kids today and now look like a racist 
Don't worry guys. Still not xenophobic and definitely not a racist. This is just something that struck me and I probably interpreted it the wrong way :3


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## PastryOfApathy (Aug 20, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> Did they stop posting photos like this all together then? This is just something I noticed because usually photos of suspects are all over those articles!



It usually goes in like stages. When the news first breaks out the media tends to either post the killers face everywhere or go on about how their "better than that" and focus on the victims and what not, while simultaneously hammering you with constant reminders that they're only talk about the killers because they have to. Due to the controversy around Rolling Stone magazine using a picture of the Boston Bomber as their cover they've opted for the latter.

Then a week later the opposite happens so if they weren't showing their face they'll start plastering it everywhere and if they didn't they'll start focusing on the families and stuff.  

Either way by the end of the month they'll start plastering his face everywhere without giving a shit until they find something else since the media has like ADD. Trust me, I spent like 4 years straight watching nothing but cable news, this makes me a scholar.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Aug 20, 2013)

It's general practice in US news media that minors' (people under the age of 18 or sometimes 17) photos (and usually their names) are not provided in order to protect their identity, even if they committed a criminal act. In the internet age, this is increasingly becoming ineffective. George Zimmerman is a different case because he was in his 20's.


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## Inciatus (Aug 20, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> Edit: Haha, this is fucking awesome! First I made a rant complaining about annoying turkish kids today and now look like a racist
> Don't worry guys. Still not xenophobic and definitely not a racist. This is just something that struck me and I probably interpreted it the wrong way :3


Look out! He's going to start hitting us with his Bible next! If he doesn't have a Bible he will buy one to hit people with it.


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## CaptainCool (Aug 20, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> Look out! He's going to start hitting us with his Bible next! If he doesn't have a Bible he will buy one to hit people with it.



I will buy one, light it on fire, and THEN throw it at you! That way I destroy a bible AND your hair! It's like a win win situation, only that I win twice and you lose your hair!


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## Kitsune Cross (Aug 20, 2013)

Americans need guns to defend themselves...


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## Judge Spear (Aug 20, 2013)

Back in my day, when I was bored, I played Axelay. I blew alien brains out in a spaceship. Not human brains...in real life. Kids these days. :I


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## Machine (Aug 20, 2013)

Fucking teenagers.

Couldn't they have sit at home and smoke pot all day if they were bored?


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## Khaki (Aug 20, 2013)

The story I heard was that they "wanted to prove themselves".


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## Corto (Aug 20, 2013)

Personally I blame hip hop and nintendoes for corrupting our youth.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 20, 2013)

On the subject of publishing people's pictures and names it is unlikely that these facts can be kept in the dark in the internet age but I also think that when news channels publish suspects' names and photos that they're being irresponsible. 

There was a murder in Bristol a few years ago and the news published pictures of the victim's landlord, saying how he was the prime suspect and that everyone who knew him said he was an eccentric creep. 

It turned out he was innocent, so publishing his picture and name essentially ruined his life. :\ Innocent until proven guilty.


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## Troj (Aug 20, 2013)

Or, Fallow, remember how people started making threatening calls to the wrong George Zimmerman.


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## Umbra.Exe (Aug 20, 2013)

Kitsune Cross said:


> Americans need guns to defend themselves...


Not sure if that was sarcasm? The guy who was shot was Australian, and he probably didn't see it coming. But who knows, maybe he did try to run away, hence being shot in the back.

I mostly wonder where the parents were during this, and why the kids had access to a gun in the first place...


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## Vega (Aug 20, 2013)

Dude, what the fuck.


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## Kitsune Cross (Aug 20, 2013)

Umbra.Exe said:


> Not sure if that was sarcasm? The guy who was shot was Australian, and he probably didn't see it coming. But who knows, maybe he did try to run away, hence being shot in the back.
> 
> I mostly wonder where the parents were during this, and why the kids had access to a gun in the first place...



It was sarcasm


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 20, 2013)

Khaki said:


> The story I heard was that they "wanted to prove themselves".



At least it will make their trial very easy.


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## Umbra.Exe (Aug 20, 2013)

Kitsune Cross said:


> It was sarcasm


I see. Sorry. ^^;

But I still wonder why the kids had access to a gun. I wonder if it belonged to the parents, and they just didn't lock it up? Or did they somehow get a hold of it some other way?

I also wonder why they decided to_ kill someone_ to stop their boredom. There are far less destructive things one can do when bored. Seriously, what kind of decision-making is that?


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## PsychicOtter (Aug 20, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...urder-in-ballplayers-killing-in-oklahoma?lite
> 
> Two teens age 15 and 16 were bored, so they decided to gun down a random jogger. What the bloody hell. Do I even need to say more?
> They killed him. Because they were _bored_. 'Merica! Fix your shit!
> ...


Well, as you said, they did shoot a young, innocent man for no reason.  They're obviously horrible people, so a strict punishment seems necessary.  You let these kids go, they probably go out and cause more trouble. I'm not saying give them decades in prison or whatever, but they shouldn't get off easy.


Umbra.Exe said:


> But I still wonder why the kids had access to a gun. I wonder if it belonged to the parents, and they just didn't lock it up?


Either that or a black market, most likely.


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## Fernin (Aug 21, 2013)

And in (un)related news, across Europe 100 women are raped per day, and about a third of them murdered. Of course no one brings this up because someone shooting someone in America is sensationalist candy. That's not to say it's not fucked up, but it's pissing me off that people act like this sort of shit ONLY happens in America, and ONLY happens because of guns. >:/


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## Inciatus (Aug 21, 2013)

Umbra.Exe said:


> But I still wonder why the kids had access to a gun. I wonder if it belonged to the parents, and they just didn't lock it up? Or did they somehow get a hold of it some other way?


It's Oklahoma; the ratio of guns to people there is like the ratio of sheep to people in Kiwiland.


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## Dreaming (Aug 21, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> No american news sites show their photos.


Are you sure this isn't GTA? Shoot a random tourist and gain 5 stars, forget the Lose Wanted Level cheat and hide behind a house for an hour



Fernin said:


> And in (un)related news, across Europe 100 women are raped per day, and about a third of them murdered. Of course no one brings this up because someone shooting someone in America is sensationalist candy. That's not to say it's not fucked up, but it's pissing me off that people act like this sort of shit ONLY happens in America, and ONLY happens because of guns. >:/


South Africa sounds like a safe and peaceful place, I hear that the suburbs of Johannesburg are damn cheap too


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 21, 2013)

Fernin said:


> and ONLY happens because of guns. >:/



Well it _is_ kind of hard to shoot someone with a gun that you don't have.


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## Fernin (Aug 21, 2013)

Hakar Kerarmor said:


> Well it _is_ kind of hard to shoot someone with a gun that you don't have.



This is true, which is why people in places where they don't have guns, people stab, bludgeon, and other wise manually murder each other instead. And absence of guns doesn't mean an absence of violence. A fact the antigun set find very inconvenient I've noticed. After all, the gun doesn't exactly drag someone out the door to go murder someone. Said person has to pick it up and use as it is a tool. Lacking a gun they'll resort to other means. After all, ask the UK about its 'knife' problem. It's very much like the 'gun' problem here in the US.

Of course, I'd argue it's not a problem with the tools, but the people who use them. Of course this stand point I have is entirely illogical, baseless, patently false, and otherwise beyond all hope of possibility.

@Dreaming : Shit I know right! 8D It's not like anybody ever gets murdered, raped, robbed, or otherwise maimed, assaulted or harmed in anywhere as civilized as the UK, Germany, Sweden, or any other 'developed' country right. After all, violence agaistn ones fellow man is only a natural occurrence in dirt world countries, the US, and Liverpool. Good point.


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## Teal (Aug 21, 2013)

Fernin said:


> After all, ask the UK about its 'knife' problem. It's very much like the 'gun' problem here in the US.
> 
> Of course, I'd argue it's not a problem with the tools, but the people who use them. Of course this stand point I have is entirely illogical, baseless, patently false, and otherwise beyond all hope of possibility.


 We have a knife problem where I live. :I


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Fernin said:


> And in (un)related news, across Europe 100 women are raped per day, and about a third of them murdered. Of course no one brings this up because someone shooting someone in America is sensationalist candy. That's not to say it's not fucked up, but it's pissing me off that people act like this sort of shit ONLY happens in America, and ONLY happens because of guns. >:/



Hundreds of women everywhere are raped and murdered each day. Hundreds of men are raped and murdered each day in prison environments which should be safe. 

These things don't make the news not because they are outrageous but because they're not unusual. The news would be nothing but rape and casualty reports from syria if it were 'meritocratic'.



Fernin said:


> This is true, which is why people in places where  they don't have guns, people stab, bludgeon, and other wise manually  murder each other instead. And absence of guns doesn't mean an absence  of violence. A fact the antigun set find very inconvenient I've noticed.  After all, the gun doesn't exactly drag someone out the door to go  murder someone. Said person has to pick it up and use as it is a tool.  Lacking a gun they'll resort to other means. After all, ask the UK about  its 'knife' problem. It's very much like the 'gun' problem here in the  US.
> 
> Of course, I'd argue it's not a problem with the tools, but the people  who use them. Of course this stand point I have is entirely illogical,  baseless, patently false, and otherwise beyond all hope of possibility.
> 
> @Dreaming : Shit I know right! 8D It's not like anybody ever gets  murdered, raped, robbed, or otherwise maimed, assaulted or harmed in  anywhere as civilized as the UK, Germany, Sweden, or any other  'developed' country right. After all, violence agaistn ones fellow man  is only a natural occurrence in dirt world countries, the US, and  Liverpool. Good point.




I know someone else like this, who has become a complete bore. Whenever American politics or crimes are discussed on that forum they burst in and complain about how much other countries suck, because the fact that a forum which has a large number of American users ends up discussing American news rather than Danish news that is reported in Dansk is just totally unacceptable! 

To the point though, yes violence does exist in every single country, but no the British knife problem doesn't claim as many lives per capita as guns in America, so it's not on the same scale. There's actually orders of magnitude difference. 

There are roughly 200 deaths per year as a result of knife wounds in the UK. That's something like 0.33 per hundred thousand per year.
This is compared to about 80 Americans dying from gunshot wounds each day in the USA. That's something like 9.3 per hundred thousand per year.

Are we done with the 'stop hating on America! D:' topic now?


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## PastryOfApathy (Aug 21, 2013)

I think it's safe to say this thread got derailed in the worst way possible. Good job everyone!


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## CaptainCool (Aug 21, 2013)

PastryOfApathy said:


> I think it's safe to say this thread got derailed in the worst way possible. Good job everyone!



I kind of felt like it was a mistake to post that addition to the original topic. Especially since it really was just about me being ignorant about the american media system!


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## TheMetalVelocity (Aug 21, 2013)

@thread title. Sounds like typical teenagers to me.


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## lupinealchemist (Aug 21, 2013)

I am trying very hard to not utter the N word in this thread.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Aug 21, 2013)

I've been ultra bored a number of times, but to go and kill a person?
Jesus sperglord almighty, this is fucking retarded.
Imho they all deserve a fucking lifer since that'd set an example you don't murder in order to kill time.


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## Seekrit (Aug 21, 2013)

lupinealchemist said:


> I am trying very hard to not utter the N word in this thread.



I'll do it for you: fucking ne'er-do-wells.


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## CaptainCool (Aug 21, 2013)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> I've been ultra bored a number of times, but to go and kill a person?
> Jesus sperglord almighty, this is fucking retarded.
> Imho they all deserve a fucking lifer since that'd set an example you don't murder in order to kill time.



I agree and yet I don't... What they did was probably the most retarded thing _ever_ and they do deserve a severe punishment for that.
But I also think society should try to properly reintegrate them again!


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## Mike Lobo (Aug 21, 2013)

Put those idiots in prison and be done with it.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 21, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> I agree and yet I don't... What they did was probably the most retarded thing _ever_ and they do deserve a severe punishment for that.
> But I also think society should try to properly reintegrate them again!



OK I'll bite.
How? How do you 'reintegrate' someone who killed another person 'because they were bored'?


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## CaptainCool (Aug 21, 2013)

Hakar Kerarmor said:


> OK I'll bite.
> How? How do you 'reintegrate' someone who killed another person 'because they were bored'?



I dunno, I'm not a psychologist :T


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

If captaincool doesn't know I guess that means it's not possible. :V


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## Volkodav (Aug 21, 2013)

Death penalty.

Edit: are y'all aware that two of the kids were black an one was white??? Orr are you just overlooking that.


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> I agree and yet I don't... What they did was probably the most retarded thing _ever_ and they do deserve a severe punishment for that.
> But I also think society should try to properly reintegrate them again!


Call me crass, but I'm really opposed to sociopaths such as these fine gentlemen getting any sort of second chances.
They took a life pointlessly, it's only fair that they lose theirs in exchange, be it life imprisonment or death penalty.


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> If captaincool doesn't know I guess that means it's not possible. :V



The reason why it's asked is because it's a half-formed thought without even a base offering of how one should go about doing it.

Should they be forced to go to prison at all if they simply lack an appreciation for human life?  Should they instead be sent to a mental health facility, provided one exists?

Should they be put into the normal prison system and, once their time is up, simply be thrown back into the world to do the best they can, assuming that somehow they're not given life-imprisonment?

Should they be put into a juvenile detention facility seeing as how they're all under the age of 18?

Give us something to work with here.


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## Volkodav (Aug 21, 2013)

You can't reintegrate someone who took the life of another simply because they had nothing else to do. There is no hope for someone like that. 
They exhibit some of the same signs as sociopaths: the kids were in stupid little "gangs", killed someone without remorse and because they were "bored", as if they were throwing a ball at a wall or something. They didn't think about going to prison or jail, they acted completely casually. They killed an innocent person for no reason except for something to do - they cannot and should not be reintegrated.


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## CaptainCool (Aug 21, 2013)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The reason why it's asked is because it's a half-formed thought without even a base offering of how one should go about doing it.



As I said, I kind of do agree with a severe punishment because of how extreme this case is. If they killed someone because of boredom properly reintegrating them into society does seem impossible to me as well. I'm just a hopeful guy, cut me some slack will ya? :V
I suppose some people just really don't belong in the gene pool.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Clayton said:


> You can't reintegrate someone who took the life of another simply because they had nothing else to do. There is no hope for someone like that.
> They exhibit some of the same signs as sociopaths: the kids were in stupid little "gangs", killed someone without remorse and because they were "bored", as if they were throwing a ball at a wall or something. They didn't think about going to prison or jail, they acted completely casually. They killed an innocent person for no reason except for something to do - they cannot and should not be reintegrated.



If it were possible they should be aimed towards rehabilitation. In response to term some previous cases of teenagers and children who murdered for amusement have resulted in the offenders serving prison sentences and then being relocated and having identity changes. I'm not sure how those instances have resulted and I have to confess there's too little information about the accused and I have little knowledge of how rehabilitation is managed in prisons in general. 

I think that concluding they are beyond rehabilitation with just as little knowledge- and often with emotional intent, is also a far reaching claim though and one which is potentially rather nasty.


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## Volkodav (Aug 21, 2013)

You can't rehab people like this.


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## Lauralien (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I have little knowledge of how rehabilitation is managed in prisons in general.



In the USA, it _isn't_ managed. :/


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

Think about it, that young baseball player's life ended right there, no second chances, that's it for him. As an atheist, I feel the the finality of death and importance of one's life is greatly emphasized. There's no happy ending for that baseball player.
There is no worse crime than senseless murder!

How fair is it to the victim and his family that these goons should get a second chance at life, unlike him?


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## PastryOfApathy (Aug 21, 2013)

Lauralien said:


> In the USA, it _isn't_ managed. :/



That's not 100% true, certain prisons have programs for those seeking rehabilitation. Of course it's not at the forefront and it *really* depends on the state (for instance you may have some luck in like Massachusetts or something but good fucking luck if you're in Arizona or something).


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## LegitWaterfall (Aug 21, 2013)

This is why I hate America.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Think about it, that young baseball player's life ended right there, no second chances, that's it for him. As an atheist, I feel the the finality of death and importance of one's life is greatly emphasized. There's no happy ending for that baseball player.
> There is no worse crime than senseless murder!
> 
> How fair is it to the victim and his family that these goons should get a second chance at life, unlike him?



I'm sure Gandhi had something to say about eyes for eyes. 

I'm not religious either, I just recognise that if there is a chance something can be salvaged from a bad situation then perhaps it's worth it. Making sure there is absolutely no point to the accused's lives might feel good, but it might not be the best overall solution if there's a possibility those teenagers could, at some point, live worthwhile lives.


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## Lauralien (Aug 21, 2013)

PastryOfApathy said:


> That's not 100% true, certain prisons have programs for those seeking rehabilitation. Of course it's not at the forefront and it *really* depends on the state (for instance you may have some luck in like Massachusetts or something but good fucking luck if you're in Arizona or something).



Very well, it's not 100% true.   If you're lucky you get a rehabilitation center...but most criminals aren't so fortunate, and we won't see that fact change for a long time yet (if ever).   And even if they are rehabilitated and released, employment is so much harder to find for folks with serious criminal records.  It's a nasty cycle, especially when there's already such a glut of people desperate for jobs.

Of course, we don't even know if these kids are the type to accept rehabilitation in the first place.  It takes some serious issues for someone to be able to destroy decades of potential life _because they were bored.   _Go jogging, get killed by kids just because you just happened to be the first person they saw.  Good times, right?


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm sure Gandhi had something to say about eyes for eyes.
> 
> I'm not religious either, I just recognise that if there is a chance something can be salvaged from a bad situation then perhaps it's worth it. Making sure there is absolutely no point to the accused's lives might feel good, but it might not be the best overall solution if there's a possibility those teenagers could, at some point, live worthwhile lives.


Sorry, but no.
End someone's life for fun and then get a slap on the wrist and a second chance?
Where's the victim's second chance? In "afterlife"? That would never sit right with me.
I can't help but feel you don't take death and it's implications too seriously.

Why must the criminals "win"?


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## lupinealchemist (Aug 21, 2013)

No, they shouldn't be reintegrated. Because of their soulless motive for murder it'll probably play out they'll become hardened sociopaths in prison, even greater burdens on humanity.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Sorry, but no.
> End someone's life for fun and then get a slap on the wrist and a second chance?
> Where's the victim's second chance? In "afterlife"? That would never sit right with me.
> I can't help but feel you don't take death and it's implications too seriously.
> ...



I didn't say 'slap on the wrist', nor did I appeal to any version of an afterlife for justification. 

I only said that, if they are eventually reformed, an opportunity to reconstruct a life worth living and to repay a debt to society would be an ideal outcome.


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I didn't say 'slap on the wrist', nor did I appeal to any version of an afterlife for justification.
> 
> I only said that, if they are eventually reformed, an opportunity to reconstruct a life worth living and to repay a debt to society would be an ideal outcome.


Well, just as I'd said, the "ideal outcome" for you means the murderers win in the end?
Why is the victim's life worth so much less than theirs, that he loses his, and the perpetrators get another chance at it? Because he's dead anyway?


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Well, just as I'd said, the "ideal outcome" for you means the murderers win in the end?
> Why is the victim's life worth so much less than theirs, that he loses his, and the perpetrators get another chance at it? Because he's dead anyway?



I think it's childish to describe a extended prison reformation as winning.


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## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I think it's childish to describe a extended prison reformation as winning.


They live
He doesn't.

It's essentially that they get a time-out.


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## Ozriel (Aug 21, 2013)

What the hell is wrong with these people?


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## LegitWaterfall (Aug 21, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> What the hell is wrong with these people?


This is all that needs to be said.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Aleu said:


> They live
> He doesn't.
> 
> It's essentially that they get a time-out.




There's so much wrong with this comment. Primarily that you're attempting to sum up all murder law and morality in 3 sentences.


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## Inciatus (Aug 21, 2013)

I would agree that maybe there could be some attempt at reintigration if the reason behind the murder was that they wanted his organs, or the money in his waller, or even his shoes. Doing it for fun, unless they are insane, lock them up or put them to death.


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## Iudicium_86 (Aug 21, 2013)

Wow, people really think these fucks should get a chance at life after just some X number of years away? 

Rehabilitation can be a good thing, and someone can repay their tragic debt. But that only counts if they were a good person before already, and the tragic moment that killed someone was a lapse in judgement or something. Basically I would believe rehabilitation can work for someone convicted of manslaughter or similair. But killing someone to cure some personal boredom.... that is someone inately broken from the start. You can't fix that. Can only hope to keep such an animal away and out of society for as long as possible, life being prefferable.


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## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> I would agree that maybe there could be some attempt at reintigration if the reason behind the murder was that they wanted his organs, or the money in his waller, or even his shoes. Doing it for fun, unless they are insane, lock them up or* put them to death*.


As much as I am for the death penalty I would highly fight against it for minors. IMO the line has got to be drawn somewhere.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

I think that plenty of people are prepared to comment 'objectively' about who deserves second chances and who deserves to die is rather concerning. 

Going to do it...going to have to quote Gandalf. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RemBy5yeW8g
Tolkien was rather right about this subject.


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I think it's childish to describe a extended prison reformation as winning.


What else can you call it then, in this particular case?
The victim loses everything and the ones who took his life for fun get a fresh start after a few years? 
What's that if not a damn slap on the wrist, for senseless murder no less!?
Who's the only one truly losing anything here, really?  What's some years wasted in rehab as punishment compared to a LIFETIME lost?


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## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I think that plenty of people are prepared to comment 'objectively' about who deserves second chances and who deserves to die is rather concerning.
> 
> Going to do it...going to have to quote Gandalf.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RemBy5yeW8g
> Tolkien was rather right about this subject.


No one is right or wrong on things like this. Rather one you agree with the most.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> What else can you call it then, in this particular case?
> The victim loses everything and the ones who took his life for fun get a fresh start after a few years?
> What's that if not a damn slap on the wrist, for senseless murder no less!?
> Who's the only one truly losing anything here, really?  What's some years wasted in rehab as punishment compared to a LIFETIME lost?



Justice, rather than retaliation.



Aleu said:


> No one is right or wrong on things like this. Rather one you agree with the most.



So by your own admission you expect some criminals [I'm aware not these specific ones] to die because of a moral view you aren't sure is right or wrong?


----------



## Saga (Aug 21, 2013)

My guess is they were proving themselves for a gang.


----------



## LegitWaterfall (Aug 21, 2013)

Saga said:


> My guess is they were proving themselves for a gang.


Well they sure as hell aren't getting into one now.


----------



## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Justice, rather than retaliation.


Precisely! Hopefully the American justice system will follow through and ensure that they stay behind bars for the remainder of their lives. 
You want justice for the murderers, yet make no mention of justice for the victim or his family.


A bit off topic but it's just something silly I noticed...it was kinda predictable that you'd be the one to have such a stance, though. If I had to name another forum member who'd probably be on your side off the top of my head, I guess it'd be Rilvor and maaaybe Term.
You "philosopher" types are all the same  :v
Fancying yourselves possessors of an immaculate moral compass and sense of justice!
Curse you, persnickety white knights!


----------



## Umbra.Exe (Aug 21, 2013)

Fernin said:


> This is true, which is why people in places where they don't have guns, *people stab, bludgeon, and other wise manually murder each other instead.* And absence of guns doesn't mean an absence of violence. A fact the antigun set find very inconvenient I've noticed. After all, the gun doesn't exactly drag someone out the door to go murder someone. Said person has to pick it up and use as it is a tool. Lacking a gun they'll resort to other means. After all, ask the UK about its 'knife' problem. It's very much like the 'gun' problem here in the US.


I was thinking this as well. If the kids had it in their mind to murder (or at least severely harm) someone, I don't think lack of a gun would stop them. They could have stabbed or beat up the guy if they had their minds set on hurting him.

I'm not sure what to think about the whole "life in prison vs. reintegration" argument. On one hand, keeping them in prison isn't going to bring the victim back. on the other hand, we all must pay the consequences of our actions... For me, I think it comes down to whether the kids feel truly remorseful for what they've done. I think only after they feel that guilt can they possibly come back into society. But some people feel no remorse, and just don't care. But we can't tell from the article. It seems like these kids are the latter kind of person, but who knows.


----------



## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Precisely! Hopefully the American justice system will follow through and ensure that they stay behind bars for the remainder of their lives.
> You want justice for the murderers, yet make no mention of justice for the victim or his family.
> 
> 
> ...


Making sure lives are wasted in one's memory, or being open to the possibility of reformation if _and only if _it presents itself as a possibility?

If they're rotten to the core and they never show any sign of being reformable I'm quite content to see them spend a very long stint in prison.



Umbra.Exe said:


> I was thinking this as well. If the kids had it  in their mind to murder (or at least severely harm) someone, I don't  think lack of a gun would stop them. They could have stabbed or beat up  the guy if they had their minds set on hurting him.
> 
> I'm not sure what to think about the whole "life in prison vs.  reintegration" argument. On one hand, keeping them in prison isn't going  to bring the victim back. on the other hand, we all must pay the  consequences of our actions... For me, I think it comes down to whether  the kids feel truly remorseful for what they've done. I think only after  they feel that guilt can they possibly come back into society. But some  people feel no remorse, and just don't care. But we can't tell from the  article. It seems like these kids are the latter kind of person, but  who knows.



Survival rates of physical assault and knife assault tend to be better than being shot. The lethality of the murder weapons available _is_ a legitimate concern. 

I also think a precondition for reintegration would be remorse, although that is admittedly something many prisoners would try to fake, so more pragmatic measures would probably be necessary.


----------



## CaptainCool (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Making sure lives are wasted in one's memory, or being open to the possibility of reformation if _and only if _it presents itself as a possibility?
> 
> If they're rotten to the core and they never show any sign of being reformable I'm quite content to see them spend a very long stint in prison.



I think we both are just way too positive for this world :T


----------



## Saga (Aug 21, 2013)

LegitWaterfall said:


> Well they sure as hell aren't getting into one now.


I guess they'll have a chance in jail, if they arent *ahem* since they're so young :v(?)


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> A bit off topic but it's just something silly I noticed...it was kinda predictable that you'd be the one to have such a stance, though. If I had to name another forum member who'd probably be on your side off the top of my head, I guess it'd be Rilvor and maaaybe Term.
> You "philosopher" types are all the same  :v
> Fancying yourselves possessors of an immaculate moral compass and sense of justice!
> Curse you, persnickety white knights!



I've been pretty consistent on my support of the death penalty, specifically for use in those instances where the offender killed multiple individuals in a mass killing or seriel killing event.

This case is an interesting one, particularly because not only the reason why they killed that man, but because it's been reported that the kids have shown no remorse for what they've done, with comments that they were dancing, smiling, and laughing as they were brought into the police station for processing.  

Now because of their ages I'd like to think that they could learn what they did was absolutely unacceptable. In the immediate aftermath of this event it's hard for any of us to believe that given what we know now. But based on what my views are on the death penalty, I'd have to say it wouldn't be an appropriate punishment in this case.

In regards to the "guns don't kill people" comments, the lack of a presence of a gun in the hands of underaged kids take the ease of that act completely out of the equation. The gun makes it exponentially easier for them to commit murder from the safety of their car, from a distance, and not giving the other guy a chance to fight or flee.

It's a bit harder to sneak up on a guy in broad daylight who's jogging and bludgeon them to death without effort of their part to chase him down and beat the life out of him with resistance.  Remember, the victim was an athlete.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 21, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> Back in my day, when I was bored, I played Axelay. I blew alien brains out in a spaceship. Not human brains...in real life. Kids these days. :I



You want to know what kids did in older days?

You probably don't lol.


----------



## Willow (Aug 21, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> They are also being charged with first degree murder, a third teenager is being charged as beeing an "accessory to murder" as well. They are charging them as adults, not as kids. So depending on the sentences their lifes are essentially over. They go to jail, get back out and then they are pretty much doomed to fail in our society. Awesome! One guy dead, four lifes ruined in total! Neat.


If the kids didn't want their lives ruined they probably should have thought about the repercussions before they shot the guy?? I can hardly feel remorse for them in that regard. 



> And then there is another thing I find weird, but this is about the american media system...
> No american news sites show their photos. You know, like they usually do in every other murder case. But the australian news sites (the baseball player was australian) DO show their faces.
> 
> The two teens who are being charged with murder are black. Why is it that when Zimmermann shot Martin his face was all over the internet but no one shows photos of these kids even though they admitted that they shot someone because they were bored?
> I just find this interesting because it tells me that America still has some things to learn when it comes to racism. That for some reason this still is a hot topic even though it really shouldn't be.


It really doesn't have much to do with racism. If I'm not mistaken, the police/media aren't allowed to release photos of minors even if they murder someone. At least not initially. Zimmerman was a lot older than these boys.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> So by your own admission you expect some criminals [I'm aware not these specific ones] to die because of a moral view you aren't sure is right or wrong?


Oh look. Twisting my words around again as usual.
I agree with capital punishment because I believe in paying back wrong-doings. You take a human life, you shouldn't have your own.


----------



## CaptainCool (Aug 21, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Oh look. Twisting my words around again as usual.
> I agree with capital punishment because I believe in paying back wrong-doings. You take a human life, you shouldn't have your own.



And I disagree with that because murder is always wrong. Two wrongs don't make one right.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> And I disagree with that because murder is always wrong. Two wrongs don't make one right.


Capital punishment isn't murder. Please don't twist this into bleeding heart bullshit.


----------



## Fallowfox (Aug 21, 2013)

Capital punishment is so often a case of people on the internet rabbiting on about how they want vindictive laws. Does it not occur to you that people are occasionally wrongly convicted, that there is no resulting deterrent for crimes of passion, that it costs significantly more etc etc? 

I suppose it just feels really good to indulge some blood lust.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 21, 2013)

LegitWaterfall said:


> This is why I hate America.



Right because kids in other countries haven't murdered because they were bored. 

Like the girl and her sibling that threw puppies in the river, because they were bored...and younger than the perps in the OP.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Capital punishment is so often a case of people on the internet rabbiting on about how they want vindictive laws. Does it not occur to you that people are occasionally wrongly convicted, that there is no resulting deterrent for crimes of passion, that it costs significantly more etc etc?
> 
> I suppose it just feels really good to indulge some blood lust.


Right cuz it's not like appeals exist or anything.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 21, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Right cuz it's not like appeals exist or anything.



That's actually the one reason I don't like the death penalty here. China, Japan are pretty thorough and quick on the appeals. In the US appeals, and the whole process before you finally execute cost more than just giving someone life imprisonment.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 21, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Right because kids in other countries haven't murdered because they were bored.
> 
> Like the girl and her sibling that threw puppies in the river, because they were bored...and younger than the perps in the OP.



People seem to also be forgetting that most loved of Internet videos "Hammer Time!" Otherwise known as "3 Guys, 1 Hammer."


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 21, 2013)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> People seem to also be forgetting that most loved of Internet videos "Hammer Time!" Otherwise known as "3 Guys, 1 Hammer."



People are people
why should it be
you and I 
Get along
so awfully?


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's actually the one reason I don't like the death penalty here. China, Japan are pretty thorough and quick on the appeals. In the US appeals, and the whole process before you finally execute cost more than just giving someone life imprisonment.


then they should make the appeals more thorough. Not get rid of the death penalty.


----------



## Corto (Aug 21, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Right cuz it's not like appeals exist or anything.


Yes because as we all know the justice system is completely flawless so let's bet someone's life on it.


----------



## Inciatus (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Capital punishment is so often a case of people on the internet rabbiting on about how they want vindictive laws. Does it not occur to you that people are occasionally wrongly convicted, that there is no resulting deterrent for crimes of passion, that it costs significantly more etc etc?
> 
> I suppose it just feels really good to indulge some blood lust.


While people are wrongly convicted, there is a long number of appeals before the person is put to death.
I think that crimes of passion are generally treated lighter than premeditated crimes.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 21, 2013)

That's the same hyperbole used on immigration.

"Make it more efficient"

But no one cares to truly elaborate.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's the same hyperbole used on immigration.
> 
> "Make it more efficient"
> 
> But no ome cares to truly elaborate.


I'll get back to you on it once I'm actually part of the system.

Hopefully in two/three years.


----------



## Umbra.Exe (Aug 21, 2013)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> In regards to the "guns don't kill people" comments, the lack of a presence of a gun in the hands of underaged kids take the ease of that act completely out of the equation. The gun makes it exponentially easier for them to commit murder from the safety of their car, from a distance, and not giving the other guy a chance to fight or flee.
> 
> It's a bit harder to sneak up on a guy in broad daylight who's jogging and bludgeon them to death without effort of their part to chase him down and beat the life out of him with resistance.  Remember, the victim was an athlete.


You have a point there, too. I wanted to say something similar but wasn't sure how to word it... But still, either their families were irresponsible in not keeping the gun locked up safely, or they got it another way (maybe the black market, as was mentioned). If they did get it illegally, they're pretty much troublemakers to begin with, gun or no gun.

I don't even know what to say about the lack of remorse they had. I don't get how people can be that way...


----------



## Azure (Aug 21, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's actually the one reason I don't like the death penalty here. China, Japan are pretty thorough and quick on the appeals. In the US appeals, and the whole process before you finally execute cost more than just giving someone life imprisonment.


we all know you dont get any sort of fair judicial appeal in china. dont be facetious.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 21, 2013)

Punishment? Long prison sentence, _try_ to reform, if reformation does not succed, they have to stay in prison. (Or in other words, Lifelong with the chance for parole after X years if they reform)
That's what an enlightened* democracy should do in my opinion, but i'm not naiev enough to think that that is what will be done.

*Why the heck does the english word for this philosphic-scientific age sound so religious?!


Aleu said:


> Capital punishment isn't murder. Please don't twist this into bleeding heart bullshit.


Then change "murder" to "killing for anything but defense". Do you still disagree?


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Then change "murder" to "killing for anything but defense". Do you still disagree?


You do realize that other words to explain different instances exist right?


----------



## Kahoku (Aug 21, 2013)

After the Trayvon Martian ruling, I gave up on this country. Murder is okay, and make it racist America. Stay Classy.

I don't mean to respond so short on this post, but honestly god fucking damn it.

* pours a little more whiskey *


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 21, 2013)

Really? Because no one goes to jail for murder or hate crimes anymore because of one over publicised case?


----------



## Kosdu (Aug 21, 2013)

I just learned about this. This kid was shot dead here in Oklahoma, I don't know Duncan myself but I hear it is a small town.

Appearently this really fucks with my sister since her friend Alec was shot dead down in Lawton, our town, just a year ago...




These kids, for who knows what reason, did something they can never take back. They took their own lives away the same moment they shot that person. I wish the man had not been shot, but why kill these kids too? 

If you kill them you are every bit the murderer they are, no matter how you do it. Maybe they will come to in later years, one can only hope. One can only hope.....





This will pass in time as have so many other things, but the only difference between this and the daily fact of life in many places is the age of those involved.

For fuck's sake, we gotta realize this shit isn't that uncommon, sadly.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Kosdu said:


> I just learned about this. This kid was shot dead here in Oklahoma, I don't know Duncan myself but I hear it is a small town.
> 
> Appearently this really fucks with my sister since her friend Alec was shot dead down in Lawton, our town, just a year ago...
> 
> ...


....pretty sure by law given that they are minors they are not fit for the death penalty


----------



## Hinalle K. (Aug 21, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Capital punishment is so often a case of people on the internet rabbiting on about how they want vindictive laws. Does it not occur to you that people are occasionally wrongly convicted, that there is no resulting deterrent for crimes of passion, that it costs significantly more etc etc?
> 
> I suppose it just feels really good to indulge some blood lust.


We're talking about this particular case,Fallow, what's there to be wrongly convicted about here? Seems pretty clear to me.
I, particularly, never stated that they should receive capital punishment. What I feel is right is that they don't get released back into society.



Aleu said:


> ....pretty sure by law given that they are minors they are not fit for the death penalty


They're going to be tried as adults though, right?
At the very least there is the possibility of life sentencing,  correct? I certainly hope so!


----------



## Aleu (Aug 21, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> They're going to be tried as adults though, right?
> At the very least there is the possibility of life sentencing,  correct? I certainly hope so!


That is the possibility I believe.
If they gave no fucks as what sources said then I don't care if they spend it in a prison or a mental institution, just keep them out of society.


----------



## Kahoku (Aug 21, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Really? Because no one goes to jail for murder or hate crimes anymore because of one over publicised case?



Happens all the time here in philly. Happened to my next door neighbor's kid, their son was shot for wearing a hoodie. Where was his tv case? He was coming back from night school, and was checking his phone.

One case? no, real world? Yeah.


----------



## CrazyLee (Aug 21, 2013)

PsychicOtter said:


> Either that or a black market, most likely.



Why it gotta be a BLACK market? You racist or something? Why not a white market, or is it because white markets only sell locally-grown produce? 

:V

Edit:
And because I notice this thread suddenly became a discussion on rehabilitation:
I would like to mention that I have actually read stories of prisoners who had committed muder when they were young who, now in their middle years, feel bad for what they did and are reformed, and are model prisoners.
The thing is, these kids are just that, kids. That means their brains are not working right and their maturity is non-existant. That doesn't mean that 20 years from now they'll finally have mature brains and think "What the fuck was my younger self thinking?"
I'm not excusing the bullshit thing they did now, but I would at least give them a CHANCE for parole in 20-25 years, because they are children. Once that time comes, see if they're still cold-blooded assholes, or maybe better people. Then make the decision to release them or hold them.
If they're no longer a danger to society, there's no reason to keep one more person in our already expensive and over-crowded system.

It might be interesting to note that I once got to talk to a guy who killed two people in a drive-by due to a love feud. He had nothing to do with the love conflict but was just "helpin a brotha out". He honestly felt horrible for what he had done and was filled with nothing but contempt for his behavior. He actually agreed he deserved to be locked up for life.

That being said I also knew of a gang member who tried to kill a random person and didn't give a single fuck. Just had no respect for life whatsoever. Fucking Detroit.

It really depends on the person.


----------



## Inciatus (Aug 21, 2013)

CrazyLee said:


> Why it gotta be a BLACK market? You racist or something? Why not a white market, or is it because white markets only sell locally-grown produce?
> 
> :V


Though it is the mexicans that grow the produce.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 22, 2013)

Aleu said:


> You do realize that other words to explain different instances exist right?


Yeah,
murder -> ending of live, strongly negative judgement
killing -> ending of live, no inherent judgement
Or what description would YOU prefer for this instance?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 22, 2013)

Kahoku said:


> Happens all the time here in philly. Happened to my next door neighbor's kid, their son was shot for wearing a hoodie. Where was his tv case? He was coming back from night school, and was checking his phone.
> 
> One case? no, real world? Yeah.



How is this one case of your "next door neighbor's kid" all the fucking time? WTF is with furries with horrible math fallacies?

There are many cases where people go to jail for being racist and those who are also committed for murder. I'm sorry but I hate sad sack shit of logic trainwrecks


----------



## Khaki (Aug 22, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Yeah,
> murder -> ending of live, strongly negative judgement
> killing -> ending of live, no inherent judgement
> Or what description would YOU prefer for this instance?



How about?
REMOVE​ PURGE​ EXTERMINATE​


----------



## Inciatus (Aug 22, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Yeah,
> murder -> ending of live, strongly negative judgement
> killing -> ending of live, no inherent judgement
> Or what description would YOU prefer for this instance?


link


*First degree murder* is any murder that is willful and premeditated. Felony is typically first degree.


*Second degree murder* is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.


*Third degree murder* is a murder committed without justification or excuse.


*Voluntary manslaughter* (often referred to as third degree murder), sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.


*Involuntary manslaughter* stems from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional, or negligent, act leading to death. A drunk driving-related death is typically involuntary manslaughter. Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional," because the killer did not intend for a death to result from their intentional actions. If there is a presence of intention it relates only to the intent to cause a violent act which brings about the death, but not an intention to bring about the death itself.



Arshes Nei said:


> How is this one case of your "next door neighbor's kid" all the fucking time? WTF is with furries with horrible math fallacies?
> 
> There are many cases where people go to jail for being racist and those who are also committed for murder. I'm sorry but I hate sad sack shit of logic trainwrecks


You must hate this forum and the whole of the internet something fierce then.


----------



## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 22, 2013)

Khaki said:


> How about?
> REMOVE​ PURGE​ EXTERMINATE​



"I'm so sorry, but this isn't working out. I think we need some time apart. It's not me, it's you.
---Love, society"


----------



## Rilvor (Aug 22, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> A bit off topic but it's just something silly I noticed...it was kinda predictable that you'd be the one to have such a stance, though. If I had to name another forum member who'd probably be on your side off the top of my head, I guess it'd be Rilvor and maaaybe Term.



You do me a disservice by taking the pretense of knowing whom I agree with.

For the record, while I agree with Fallowfox to a point, it is only to a point. If it can be proven that the murderer truly is mentally deranged, a murderous human monster, then I see no point in their continued life. I do not believe life in prison is better than death, I think it is worse.

But please, let us all continue to sit here and argue our morality and pretend any of us would have the nerve to put a child to death by our own hand. It makes for a pathetic, amusing show at least.

Edit: I wonder at you people who do not seem to grasp that life imprisonment is in itself a death sentence.


----------



## badnewsbear (Aug 22, 2013)

I've been to jail and some people don't seem to mind it. Some people seem to like it there. 3 hots and a cot.


----------



## thoughtmaster (Aug 22, 2013)

Kosdu said:


> I just learned about this. This kid was shot dead here in Oklahoma, I don't know Duncan myself but I hear it is a small town.
> 
> Appearently this really fucks with my sister since her friend Alec was shot dead down in Lawton, our town, just a year ago...
> 
> ...


Well, I haven't heard anything about this, even though I live in the state where this crime occured. That either proves the lack of media coverage, or that, with the recovery efforts focused on Moore, they don't have time for dealing with a murder. My family owns a gun, heck my little brother owns a 22, and we use them to protect ourselves from animals like snakes and wild dogs. Either way, I dislike people bashing on my home state.


----------



## Kosdu (Aug 22, 2013)

thoughtmaster said:


> Well, I haven't heard anything about this, even though I live in the state where this crime occured. That either proves the lack of media coverage, or that, with the recovery efforts focused on Moore, they don't have time for dealing with a murder. My family owns a gun, heck my little brother owns a 22, and we use them to protect ourselves from animals like snakes and wild dogs. Either way, I dislike people bashing on my home state.



Fact is murder is so common, that's probably why they aren't covering this. I don't watch the news anymore.

Oklahoma has good and bad areas, Lawton and Tulsa are pretty good, but there are stereotypical places.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 22, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> You must hate this forum and the whole of the internet something fierce then.



I dunno about the whole of the internet and forum, but sometimes furries come off as the concentration of Youtube comments


----------



## Volkodav (Aug 22, 2013)

Looking back on people saying that rehab in the US is not completely fucking corrupt. Y'all have Dr.Oz torturing and brainwashing gays in "gay rehabs" and you have Lindsay Lohan jumping in an out of rehab and the list goes on and on.
Wave a little cash in front of America and you can do whatever the fuck you want. It's a horrible place.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Aug 22, 2013)

Clayton said:


> Looking back on people saying that rehab in the US is not completely fucking corrupt. Y'all have Dr.Oz torturing and brainwashing gays in "gay rehabs" and you have Lindsay Lohan jumping in an out of rehab and the list goes on and on.
> Wave a little cash in front of America and you can do whatever the fuck you want. It's a horrible place.



You say that like the same shit doesn't happen everywhere else. The power of money is universal.


----------



## Umbra.Exe (Aug 22, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> You do me a disservice by taking the pretense of knowing whom I agree with.
> 
> For the record, while I agree with Fallowfox to a point, it is only to a point. If it can be proven that the murderer truly is mentally deranged, a murderous human monster, then I see no point in their continued life. I do not believe life in prison is better than death, I think it is worse.
> 
> ...


I was wondering why people seemed to be arguing that death and rehabilitation were the only two options...
I also agree that a life sentence is far worse than execution. I mean, once you're dead, that's it. No more pain, no more guilt, nothing. But in prison you have to live with what you've done. Even if they feel no remorse, they still have their freedom taken away.


----------



## Hinalle K. (Aug 22, 2013)

Umbra.Exe said:


> I was wondering why people seemed to be arguing that death and rehabilitation were the only two options...
> I also agree that a life sentence is far worse than execution. I mean, once you're dead, that's it. No more pain, no more guilt, nothing. But in prison you have to live with what you've done. Even if they feel no remorse, they still have their freedom taken away.


Those poor, poor murdering sociopaths.
We should create a "hug a psycho" day!


----------



## Arshes Nei (Aug 22, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Those poor, poor murdering sociopaths.
> We should create a "hug a psycho" day!



Well there's cases you can talk people down from murder when they're mentally unstable.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/georgia-school-gunshots/?hpt=hp_bn1


Granted this is before the fact, and not after. And again, it still costs way more to try to execute someone in the US than just keep them in life imprisonment. If we can't rehabilitate then I see no reason to waste more money on these people. So economically keeping them in prison for life is fine.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 22, 2013)

Khaki said:


> How about?
> REMOVE​ PURGE​ EXTERMINATE​


Or in short "culling the unworthy"


Inciatus said:


> link
> 
> 
> *First degree murder* is any murder that is willful and premeditated. Felony is typically first degree.
> ...


Was using social definitions, not legal definitions... but whatever:
What are the legal definitions of ways to kill legally? Self defense I'd strongly guess (and anything pretending to be self defense), anything else?


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## Umbra.Exe (Aug 22, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Those poor, poor murdering sociopaths.
> We should create a "hug a psycho" day!


What? I didn't say I felt sorry for them. I'm saying if you really want to punish them, don't give them the "easy way out."



Arshes Nei said:


> .... And again, it still  costs way more to try to execute someone in the US than just keep them  in life imprisonment. If we can't rehabilitate then I see no reason to  waste more money on these people. So economically keeping them in prison  for life is fine.


Really? I thought it would have been the opposite. I guess with all the appeals and such though, that would make it cost more.


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## Harbinger (Aug 22, 2013)

You make it sound like their lives being ruined is a bad thing. If they have the thought process that they find enjoyment from killing they should be killed themselves, cut up, and fed to the nearest endangered carnivore.


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## Inciatus (Aug 22, 2013)

Harbinger said:


> You make it sound like their lives being ruined is a bad thing. If they have the thought process that they find enjoyment from killing they should be killed themselves, cut up, and fed to the nearest endangered carnivore.


There are people like that. It's called vore fetish.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 22, 2013)

Umbra.Exe said:


> Really? I thought it would have been the opposite. I guess with all the appeals and such though, that would make it cost more.



http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/.../t/execute-or-not-question-cost/#.UhZn0z8piUA


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## Aleu (Aug 22, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Was using social definitions, not legal definitions... but whatever:
> What are the legal definitions of ways to kill legally? Self defense I'd strongly guess (and anything pretending to be self defense), anything else?


Haha "social definitions" HA.
"Social definitions" are for people who frequently appeal to emotion.
"Abortion is MURDER"
"Meat is MURDER" 
BAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Legal killing is either self defense (no not anything pretending to be self defense) and execution.
Personally I think suicide and euthanasia should be added but_ whatever_
Is this the end of your pointless questionnaire? Or do you have more?


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## Trpdwarf (Aug 22, 2013)

CrazyLee said:


> Why it gotta be a BLACK market? You racist or something? Why not a white market, or is it because white markets only sell locally-grown produce?
> 
> :V
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but these kids were old enough to know right from wrong. I knew killing was bad when I was 10. These are teenagers. What a wonderful message though, that it's okay to kill someone as long as you are still a kid and your brain isn't "mature". ;/

Where is the victims second chance huh? Oh wait, he won't get one. Neither should this idiots.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 22, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Haha "social definitions" HA.
> "Social definitions" are for people who frequently appeal to emotion.
> "Abortion is MURDER"
> "Meat is MURDER"
> BAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


No, you know like "You are a retard" can be a medical statement or an insult, but yeah more than one definition for the same term is hard to grasp...


Aleu said:


> Legal killing is either self defense (no not anything pretending to be self defense) and execution.
> Personally I think suicide and euthanasia should be added but_ whatever_
> Is this the end of your pointless questionnaire? Or do you have more?


So, any execution by any state or nation is right? (Avoiding to directly state the Nazi reference...)


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## Smelge (Aug 22, 2013)

Fernin said:


> And in (un)related news, across Europe 100 women are raped per day, and about a third of them murdered. Of course no one brings this up because someone shooting someone in America is sensationalist candy. That's not to say it's not fucked up, but it's pissing me off that people act like this sort of shit ONLY happens in America, and ONLY happens because of guns. >:/



You raise a very good and valid point.

Actually, no, that's a lie. This is a fucking stupid point.

The reason this gets international news, and other shit like this is because it's an uncommon occurence. Rape, unfortunately, is relatively common, so it doesn't get much more than a local or possibly national coverage. And because you're intent on showing Europe is worse because OMG RAPE, want the statistics on how many rapes occur in America daily? An average of 525. I suspect the European totals are higher as well, so it'd be better to look at the numbers of rapes and attempted rapes.

UK has 1 in 200 people experiencing rape, while US is 1 in 6.

Europe is worse?


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## Aleu (Aug 22, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> No, you know like "You are a retard" can be a medical statement or an insult, but yeah more than one definition for the same term is hard to grasp...
> 
> So, any execution by any state or nation is right? (Avoiding to directly state the Nazi reference...)


Calling someone a retard means calling them mentally slow/challenged. Because that's what being retarded is.

It seems you have a hard time comprehending "right" and "legal".
Just because something is illegal does not make it "wrong" and just because something is legal does not mean it is "right".

Now stop mixing the two to paint your agenda in a "holier than thou" light. FFS


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 22, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Calling someone a retard means calling them mentally slow/challenged. Because that's what being retarded is.
> 
> It seems you have a hard time comprehending "right" and "legal".
> Just because something is illegal does not make it "wrong" and just because something is legal does not mean it is "right".
> ...


And what is legal can be changed, and what basis would be better than "what is right"? (just to stay with the Theme of asking questions)
Besides: it's fun, why stop?


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 22, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> I'm sorry but these kids were old enough to know right from wrong. I knew killing was bad when I was 10. These are teenagers. What a wonderful message though, that it's okay to kill someone as long as you are still a kid and your brain isn't "mature". ;/
> 
> Where is the victims second chance huh? Oh wait, he won't get one. Neither should this idiots.


I still think most people here don't realize how definitive death is until they have some sort of experience near it.
Everything - gone - forever. And for what? Absolutely nothing! "They were bored?"
It's atrocious to think that there are people defending that these "fun killers" should get a second chance, on the victim's life's expense.
These aren't kids, they are teenagers nearing adulthood, they are fully capable of taking responsibility for their acts!


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## Trpdwarf (Aug 22, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> I still think most people here don't realize how definitive death is until they have some sort of experience near it.
> Everything - gone - forever. And for what? Absolutely nothing! "They were bored?"
> It's atrocious to think that there are people defending that these "fun killers" should get a second chance, on the victim's life's expense.
> These aren't kids, they are teenagers nearing adulthood, they are fully capable of taking responsibility for their acts!



There may be some people here who don't take it as serious as they should. Perhaps that is a long term consequence to desensitization. That's not just modern wise, it wasn't too long ago that seeing public hangings was a wholesome family experience. 

I do agree completely these are people fully able to take responsibility for their actions. When you kill for the "thrill of it" it's over for you. You've got something that has gone deeply wrong inside and you don't need to be able to move about in society as a further threat to innocent people. That Australian guy was an innocent person. Its' not like those teenagers have any sort of a future after murder even if they get let out later. Who wants to hire a convicted murder? What choices does that leave?


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## Rilvor (Aug 22, 2013)

I see we are now moving on to using assumptions about the life experiences of others, as if that somehow invalidates their thoughts.

What's next, are we going to fall back on "You're not old enough to understand"?

Some of us prefer to keep a level head, a voice of reason, and takes these sorts of things in a case by case basis where all factors are examined. Goodness knows the hooting and chest-beating for "justice!" is loud enough as it is, given that many "good" people are prone to thoughtlessness and knee-jerk reactions.

Make no mistake, I am not defending anyone who kills "because they were bored". There are thousands of other ways to amuse yourself, or at least thousands of ants to enact your sick emotions on.


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## Trpdwarf (Aug 22, 2013)

And exactly how much have you been keeping up on this particular subject Rivlor? Are you aware of what kinds of things the involved teenagers were spewwing online prior to this murder? There really isn't much to say here and to ponder.

Three kids killed another person not just out of fun, but at least for one of them because of a driving hatred of anyone who appeared to have "white skin" or to be "white.". Not sure if I believe this to be fallout of the Zimmerman trial or not. But the kinds of thing these kids were saying online puts their attitudes into perspective.


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## Aleu (Aug 22, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> And what is legal can be changed, and what basis would be better than "what is right"? (just to stay with the Theme of asking questions)
> Besides: it's fun, why stop?


Still, just because something is "legal" does not inherently make it "right".
For example, it is legal to smoke while you're pregnant. That doesn't make it right. There's probably a shitload of legal loopholes in just about anything but that doesn't make them "right". It just means that they can do it without getting in trouble.

Also there's a difference between "right" and "A right" which you should note as well.


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## Inciatus (Aug 22, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> And exactly how much have you been keeping up on this particular subject Rivlor? Are you aware of what kinds of things the involved teenagers were spewwing online prior to this murder? There really isn't much to say here and to ponder.
> 
> Three kids killed another person not just out of fun, but at least for one of them because of a driving hatred of anyone who appeared to have "white skin" or to be "white.". Not sure if I believe this to be fallout of the Zimmerman trial or not. But the kinds of thing these kids were saying online puts their attitudes into perspective.


links?


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## Falaffel (Aug 22, 2013)

It sickens me to think people are capable of ending lives because "bored. Fuck it." 
Bloody awful. 

On a side note I didn't think FaF was capable of making arguments on a subject that is this black and white. I don't know why I keep doubting this forum.


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## Toshabi (Aug 22, 2013)

I think the thing that outraged me more wasn't the fact that the kids murdered someone out of cold blood, but the discussion that's being had here on FaF about it. God damn.


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## Smelge (Aug 22, 2013)

Falaffel said:


> On a side note I didn't think FaF was capable of making arguments on a subject that is this black and white. I don't know why I keep doubting this forum.



Black people shoot white person. It can't get any more black and white.

HURR


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## Falaffel (Aug 22, 2013)

Smelge said:


> Black people shoot white person. It can't get any more black and white.
> 
> HURR


Har. 
Now all we need is drug smuggling Mexicans.


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## Trpdwarf (Aug 22, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> links?



There is a more in-depth one but i don't like linking Fox.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/21/black-teen-who-murdered-australian-jogger-posted-racist-tweets/

Here is another: http://www.krtv.com/news/suspect-in...ris-lane-tweeted-time-to-start-taken-life-s-/

It's beginning to get picked up by more and more websites what was got before some of the feeds got shut down. Basically someone found one of the three's twitter feed and it's absolutely disgusting what he was posting.


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## Jabberwocky (Aug 22, 2013)

Stuff like this reminds me why I hate most of today's teenagers.


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## Toshabi (Aug 22, 2013)

Batsy said:


> Stuff like this reminds me why I hate most of today's teenagers.




Oh yes! Hate the entire teen population (which makes up a good chunk of your fandom [which you're apart of <That's both demographics mind you>]) because of what .00001% of the teen population does. =0)


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## Rilvor (Aug 22, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> And exactly how much have you been keeping up on this particular subject Rivlor? Are you aware of what kinds of things the involved teenagers were spewwing online prior to this murder? There really isn't much to say here and to ponder.
> 
> Three kids killed another person not just out of fun, but at least for one of them because of a driving hatred of anyone who appeared to have "white skin" or to be "white.". Not sure if I believe this to be fallout of the Zimmerman trial or not. But the kinds of thing these kids were saying online puts their attitudes into perspective.



Remind me again where I argued that the people involved here aren't murderous monsters. Admittedly I have gone off-topic so I apologize if that confused you.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 22, 2013)

Trp, as far as I saw what Rilvor said was that people were being black and white about the alternatives not anything about them not guilty of what they did and shouldn't be punished. There was just the weird alternative that people thought it should be execution or rehabilitation and I think people left out life imprisonment.


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## Jabberwocky (Aug 22, 2013)

Toshabi said:


> Oh yes! Hate the entire teen population (which makes up a good chunk of your fandom [which you're apart of <That's both demographics mind you>]) because of what .00001% of the teen population does. =0)



Gasp I never noticed you are absolutely brilliant! Have a goddamned gold star you earned it :V


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## Trpdwarf (Aug 22, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Trp, as far as I saw what Rilvor said was that people were being black and white about the alternatives not anything about them not guilty of what they did and shouldn't be punished. There was just the weird alternative that people thought it should be execution or rehabilitation and I think people left out life imprisonment.



Pardon me but all I saw what something slightly off topic that seemed to be little more than an uppity bit of jib jab. Which probably wasn't the intention. My apologies.


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## Toshabi (Aug 22, 2013)

*Re: Teenagers biggitty blat blat a hustlin' gangsta thug cuz demz bad azzez!*



Batsy said:


> Gasp I never noticed you are absolutely brilliant!




Your lack of punctuation strokes my ego.


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## Inciatus (Aug 22, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Trp, as far as I saw what Rilvor said was that people were being black and white about the alternatives not anything about them not guilty of what they did and shouldn't be punished. There was just the weird alternative that people thought it should be execution or rehabilitation and I think people left out life imprisonment.


Well execution is still life in prison somewhat. It takes so long it may as well be and if they are executed they still spend the time is prison.


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## Khaki (Aug 23, 2013)

Hakar Kerarmor said:


> "I'm so sorry, but this isn't working out. I think we need some time apart. It's not me, it's you.
> ---Love, society"



"That's alright, you'll find your stuff out burning on the verge
 Hugs and Kisses - Villains "R" Us."

However on a serious note, it is amusing how a certain choice in a word can change an entire perception of a statement.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 23, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> Well execution is still life in prison somewhat. It takes so long it may as well be and if they are executed they still spend the time is prison.



Yeah but more costly.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 23, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Still, just because something is "legal" does not inherently make it "right".
> For example, it is legal to smoke while you're pregnant. That doesn't make it right. There's probably a shitload of legal loopholes in just about anything but that doesn't make them "right". It just means that they can do it without getting in trouble.


So the law should be fixed to contain less loopholes.  My argument, not everything that is legal should be.



Aleu said:


> Also there's a difference between "right" and "A right" which you should note as well.


noted,


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## Inciatus (Aug 23, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> So the law should be fixed to contain less loopholes.  My argument, not everything that is legal should be.


Also what is right varies by perspective. Now I don't think anyone has the perspective that these kids were in the right in what they did but there are many things a nation does where what is right varies upon perspective.


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## DarrylWolf (Aug 23, 2013)

Those three will get off but I'm very interested in the ethnicity of the killers. Based upon what I read in the DMN, one of the killers "hated 90% of white people"- if this is what happens to an innocent bystander in an upscale Oklahoma neighborhood, I will definitely be careful as I go all "foreign exchange" with my fursuit.


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## Inciatus (Aug 23, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> Those three will get off but I'm very interested in the ethnicity of the killers. Based upon what I read in the DMN, one of the killers "hated 90% of white people"- if this is what happens to an innocent bystander in an upscale Oklahoma neighborhood, I will definitely be careful as I go all "foreign exchange" with my fursuit.


What do you mean by get off? Get off as in get out without any punishment or as in be thrown in prison? I find it rather unlikely they would get off scott free.


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## Falaffel (Aug 23, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> Those three will get off but I'm very interested in the ethnicity of the killers. Based upon what I read in the DMN, one of the killers "hated 90% of white people"- if this is what happens to an innocent bystander in an upscale Oklahoma neighborhood, I will definitely be careful as I go all "foreign exchange" with my fursuit.


How do you do it?

How do you work in your awful wanabe black fur-suit into every post? It's gotta get tedious right?


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## Willow (Aug 23, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> Those three will get off but I'm very interested in the ethnicity of the killers. Based upon what I read in the DMN, one of the killers "hated 90% of white people"- if this is what happens to an innocent bystander in an upscale Oklahoma neighborhood, I will definitely be careful as I go all "foreign exchange" with my fursuit.


You really


need 


to stop


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## Migoto Da (Aug 23, 2013)

I probably shouldn't have laughed at Darryl's comment. I really shouldn't have.

inb4 this turns into another racist issue that people blow out of proportion. There just has to be some ulterior motive to everything nowadays.


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## Falaffel (Aug 23, 2013)

Migoto Da said:


> I probably shouldn't have laughed at Darryl's comment. I really shouldn't have.
> 
> inb4 this turns into another racist issue that people blow out of proportion. There just has to be some ulterior motive to everything nowadays.


Everything is racist.
Like Oreos. Delicious racist bastards.


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## Migoto Da (Aug 23, 2013)

Falaffel said:


> Everything is racist.
> Like Oreos. Delicious racist bastards.


You glorious bastard.


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## Distorted (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't think they showed up on the news because they're talking about those black kids that shot that woman's baby. And Fox News can't be bothered when they're incriminating Obama.


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## Conker (Aug 24, 2013)

Falaffel said:


> How do you do it?
> 
> How do you work in your awful wanabe black fur-suit into every post? It's gotta get tedious right?


My assumption is he has some kind of mental thing going on.


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## Volkodav (Aug 24, 2013)

Two of the kids were black, one was white, who cares?

They won't see the light of day, they're black males. Like, I mean, it isn't as if this is Casey Anthony or any other female were talking about


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## Falaffel (Aug 24, 2013)

Clayton said:


> Two of the kids were black, one was white, who cares?
> 
> They won't see the light of day, they're black males. Like, I mean, it isn't as if this is Casey Anthony or any other female were talking about


Wat.


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## CrazyLee (Aug 24, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> There is a more in-depth one but i don't like linking Fox.


So  you link to the DC instead, another conservative site? The comments on  that article make me sick. I don't think I've ever seen more right-wing  racism in my life... oh wait, I did yesterday on another article about a  local arrest of a black man. Ugh.


I'd also like to note that I didn't say anything about letting these guys go without punishment. They should get a long sentence, at least 20 years to life.
What I was saying was that in other cases involving teens getting in trouble with the law that in some of them, the teen, now an adult in their 40s or so, regret what they did. And some of them... some of them should be given a second chance, especially with overcrowded prisons. Now, this should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Some people would be safe to release, some wouldn't. I have doubts these teens will ever be safe to release. But someone mentioned alternate sentences and rehabilitation and I decided to throw that tidbit in.

Oh, and for those who said "teens know exactly what they're doing, teens know right or wrong", I decided to find articles and studies online supporting the fact that teens have undeveloped brains.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468


> ensen says scientists used to think human brain development was  pretty complete by age 10. Or as she puts it, that "a teenage brain is  just an adult brain with fewer miles on it."   But it's not. To begin with, she says, a crucial part of the brain â€” the frontal lobes â€” are not fully connected. Really.
> "It's  the part of the brain that says: 'Is this a good idea? What is the  consequence of this action?' " Jensen says. "It's not that they don't  have a frontal lobe. And they can use it. But they're going to access it  more slowly."
> That's because the nerve cells that connect  teenagers' frontal lobes with the rest of their brains are sluggish.  Teenagers don't have as much of the fatty coating called myelin, or  "white matter," that adults have in this area.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/adolescent.html
http://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families...r_Problem_Solving_and_Decision_Making_95.aspx


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## Aleu (Aug 24, 2013)

That doesn't say "teens don't know right from wrong". It's mainly saying that they lack the capacity to give a fuck.


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