# Atheist/Theist Thread



## Yakamaru (Mar 20, 2019)

Seeing as the Christianity thread is limited to, well, Christianity, I thought I'd make a generic thread for Atheists and Theists alike.

Rules for the thread:
- Be civil
- Show people the kind of respect you want them to show you
- Don't be an ass, basically


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## KimberVaile (Mar 20, 2019)

Not Athiest, but agnostic.
I will personally attest that I have seen ghosts before.
As such, I believe something is out there, just don't know what it is.

Just my own two cents


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## Yakamaru (Mar 20, 2019)

Atheist, but parts agnostic as well. All the evidence we have points to no deity existing, but I don't deny the potential possibility of one existing outside of our perception of one.
Never been religious, and never will be.
As for ghosts and the like, I don't believe in them either.
I've had things happen that I can't explain, but I am not going to acclaim it to the supernatural as I don't believe in the supernatural in general.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 20, 2019)

The world needs to get rid of religion


*I MEAN ALL OF IT*


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## Cyroo (Mar 20, 2019)

Pastafarian.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 20, 2019)

Atheist, but with tones of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism. None of the metaphysical stuff.

I also generally dislike organized religion, but I don't think it should be forced out through legislation.


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## Infrarednexus (Mar 20, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> Pastafarian.


Ramon to that brother


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The world needs to get rid of religion
> 
> 
> *I MEAN ALL OF IT*


I agree with that. Especially since most if not all religion is based on blind faith, and can be used to control others for that very reason.

That being said, I don't think my views should be imposed on anyone, and I know a lot of theists who are reasonable people able to think for themselves.

It's just that in places where religion is less strict, the number of atheists seem to increase, so I'm not sure if religion could hold up without blind faith and obedience.

I am open to discuss on this and to answer any questions!


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 20, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> Ramon to that brother





 

Praise the Pasta lord


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## Pogo (Mar 20, 2019)

Im for religion, even doctrine. To some degree. Folks who pool their efforts for noble goals like charity and the easing of personal pains thru faith is a wonderful concept.
But im not religious, just naive and hopeful. I know a great many people who benefit from certain religious beliefs. Keeps them grounded and sane. I had personally sought out help at a local church once. The amount of care and compassion they shared with me was exactly what i needed.
They were a shoulder to cry on. The people i met were a wealth of advice and anecdotes.

I attended service, participated in charity and even offered to clean the place with the custodian. I wasnt working at the time and i couldnt attend school for a while. They kept me busy and i was greatful for that.

After a year and a half i said my good byes and went off to school, found a job and started doing new things.

But thats my relation with relgion. I know it isnt all sunshine and roses. Especially if you look at it from a global perspective.


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

For the sake of this thread being welcoming to all, I think it would be best if we didn't mock religion (with pastafarianism as a parody, for examplel), though


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> For the sake of this thread being welcoming to all, I think it would be best if we didn't mock religion (with pastafarianism as a parody, for examplel), though


I don't see a problem with criticizing an idea as long as people don't start making personal attacks.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> For the sake of this thread being welcoming to all, I think it would be best if we didn't mock religion (with pastafarianism as a parody, for examplel), though


Eh. Pastafarianism is an officially recognized religion though, parody or not. Some people genuinely believe in it, and this thread is after all about all theism.


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## foussiremix (Mar 20, 2019)

Hmm I am christian but I never really wanted to since I was a child when they did it.

I don't really believe in upper beings but I respect other peoples believes .

Tho Karma is something I really believe in.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

Il get more into this later, but I just want to start off by saying whatever arguments I make will be towards the idea that there is a higher order to the universe / an intelligent design. Rather than to any specific set of beliefs.

The deeper you look into the physics of the universe the more the laws that govern the universe start to seem completely arbitrary. As if they were just created with a purpose in mind.


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## AppleButt (Mar 20, 2019)

Im agnostic I suppose. Seen a ghost before, so. 

Though if there is some kind of higher being, I don’t think it’s like what religious people think it is.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

I find these videos particularly interesting regarding that nature of physics and how all the questions we ask about the universe just seem to end with 'just because'


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## Yakamaru (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I find these videos particularly interesting regarding that nature of physics and how all the questions we ask about the universe just seem to end with 'just because'


According to our current knowledge, we can't really say anything other than "we don't know. Yet". 

Our knowledge and understanding progresses as our technology progresses, and I wouldn't be surprised we find out where we actually came from in the next couple hundred years.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> According to our current knowledge, we can't really say anything other than "we don't know. Yet".
> 
> Our knowledge and understanding progresses as our technology progresses, and I wouldn't be surprised we find out where we actually came from in the next couple hundred years.



There is literally nothing more we can learn about the origin of universal constants. We know what the universal constants are exactly, but we haven't a clue _why_ they are. What existed before the universe existed? Is this the only way to make a universe? Or could you accomplish something similar with a slightly different universal gravitational constant, speed of light, ect...? Why is the universe even 3 dimensional? 

I think it is a bit overconfident to think that we could just discover the reason for the existence of the universe and the laws that govern it with just research.
There is a missing puzzle piece at the center of the existence of everything in the shape of a creator.


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## Ramjet (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> There is literally nothing more we can learn about the origin of universal constants. We know what the universal constants are exactly, but we haven't a clue _why_ they are. What existed before the universe existed? Is this the only way to make a universe? Or could you accomplish something similar with a slightly different universal gravitational constant, speed of light, ect...? Why is the universe even 3 dimensional?
> 
> I think it is a bit overconfident to think that we could just discover the reason for the existence of the universe and the laws that govern it with just research.
> There is a missing puzzle piece at the center of the existence of everything in the shape of a creator.




The missing piece is consciousness itself.


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> There is literally nothing more we can learn about the origin of universal constants. We know what the universal constants are exactly, but we haven't a clue _why_ they are. What existed before the universe existed? Is this the only way to make a universe? Or could you accomplish something similar with a slightly different universal gravitational constant, speed of light, ect...? Why is the universe even 3 dimensional?
> 
> I think it is a bit overconfident to think that we could just discover the reason for the existence of the universe and the laws that govern it with just research.
> There is a missing puzzle piece at the center of the existence of everything in the shape of a creator.


That we don't know certain things and may have no way to know doesn't mean that there's a creator. It just means that we don't know certain things and may have no way to know.

There was a point in history where people thought there was nothing more to invent, and look at us now. We can't say that it's impossible to know more about the laws of our universe, what existed before the big bang (if anything did. I think there might be things that is impossible for the human mind to comprehend-we cannot imagine what it's like to be dead, for example)

But that we don't know things doesn't mind that we have to fill in the blanks, or that what people fill these whit is real.

Personally I'm content with simply not knowing. If we find out more it will be fascinating, but it's not information I need.

Also, how can you know that the universe should have a reason behind it?

Alternatively, where would the creator come from?


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> That we don't know certain things and may have no way to know doesn't mean that there's a creator. It just means that we don't know certain things and may have no way to know.
> 
> There was a point in history where people thought there was nothing more to invent, and look at us now. We can't say that it's impossible to know more about the laws of our universe, what existed before the big bang (if anything did. I think there might be things that is impossible for the human mind to comprehend-we cannot imagine what it's like to be dead, for example)
> 
> ...



Even scientifically speaking, everything _must _have a reason behind it. You observe some natural phenomenon and then you research the cause and effect behind it. When doing this you eventually come to a point where the explanations stop at the natural laws of the universe.

There is a concept in science known as Occam's razor which in summary states that the conclusion that requires the least amount of assumptions must be the one you select. Basically the simplest explanation is the best. When it comes to the origin of the universe you reach a point where there being a creator that just dictated that the universal laws just be the way they are, is in fact the simplest explanation.


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## Brooks Dotson (Mar 20, 2019)

Technically even though i'm an atheist, i'm somewhat borderline misotheist as well, if you don't know what that is then: Misotheism - Wikipedia


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Even scientifically speaking, everything _must _have a reason behind it. You observe some natural phenomenon and then you research the cause and effect behind it. When doing this you eventually come to a point where the explanations stop at the natural laws of the universe.
> 
> There is a concept in science known as Occam's razor which in summary states that the conclusion that requires the least amount of assumptions must be the one you select. Basically the simplest explanation is the best. When it comes to the origin of the universe you reach a point where there being a creator that just dictated that the universal laws just be the way they are, is in fact the simplest explanation.


Tbh I don't really think that a fully sentient, intelligent and therefore complex entity with the power to create the universe, but that has presumably no origin themself, would pass through the Occam's razor. That such a complex being would exist without any cause is a lot less believable than an incredibly small and compact ball of energy, matter and antimatter existing without any cause.

Unless you believe that the creator had an origin, in that case: where would that creator come from? (Though honeslty we could go towards infinity with this one. If the creator comes from another universe, where would that universe come from?) And at this point we would have to assume that another universe or creator created the creator, etc. so we would have to assume even more


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 20, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> Pastafarian.


Cool, I'm a Pizzafarian.


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## The Matte-Black Cat (Mar 20, 2019)

I'm Christian. My decision to be and remain a Christian is from life experience and a philosophical point of view.

I'm gonna make this as short as possible..

What causes me to be this way is a near tie between two philosophical statements - first is St. Thomas Aquinas statement "The Second Way" (Basically stating that it is impossible for anything to create itself/bring itself into existence) and the second is the Kalam Cosmological Argument heavily presented by William Lane Craig. I pondered on both statements for about a year and a half and recently came to the conclusion that the Kalam Cosmological Argument makes the most logical sense (to me).

In easy to understand terms, the most prominent understanding of the Kalam Cosmological Argument is the fact that anything that exists does not and cannot have an infinite amount of time before it's existence.


Spoiler



It's easy to test - let's say I wanted to go to the store soon.
But before I go to the store, I have to clean up my room.
...I finished cleaning up my room, so I'm ready to go to the store - _But_ before I do that, I have to eat something first.
...I finished eating something, so now I can go to the store - *But*...before I go, I must fix my hair.
Etc, etc, etc, etc - If I _constantly_ do something _*Before*_ actually going to the store - I will Never go to the store.
Me, being present in the store, would never actually be in the state of existence.

This (whatever me, you, the person down the street is doing right now) *is* the current state of existence. Therefore, there is Not an infinite amount of time before this current state of existence.



So this argument appears to prove that there isn't an infinite amount of before-states (as I like to call "time before") prior to this one.
Most people stop right there - concluding that the Universe isn't eternal, and leave it at that...
However, I tend to think a little more about this situation.
From My understanding of the Kalam Cosmological Argument, there isn't an infinite amount of before-states.
This drives me crazy - because this means that Something (Anything) Exists without Anything _before_ it's existence.
Think about it - something Is the way it is Without anything _At_ _All_ happening before it's existence.


Spoiler



An example would be, let's say there's a table with a single cup on it. How did the cup get there? Well, I'm here - so I'll say that I put it there. That means there was a time where there wasn't a cup on the table _Before_ I put the cup there.

Now - Imagine the table with the cup on it, but knowing that there is absolutely Nothing that happened Before the table's existence. That means that literally No Thing actually caused the cup to be on the table.



Seems confusing at first. But when you (I personally) realize that there's absolutely No before-state in existence - As something exists, you realize that this something has No Rules. It has no weaknesses, it has no "allergies", it has no thing literally Forced upon it due to some Other thing. It has no king/queen, no leader, no law giver.
...
Now..idk about anyone else..but that Excites me. Something out there Exists, yet - with absolutely No rules and no boundaries..
...
But, that's just what I tend to understand..

Now, with everything I just said - does this prove the Christian God of the Bible?
No.
I can't prove that (what I believe is) God is indeed the Christian God of the Bible the same way that I can't prove that a particular organism existed millions of years ago.
*I wasn't in existence millions of years ago to see or experience that,* *neither did I exist thousands of years ago to meet Christ.*
Because of this, in 100% honesty - I Cannot Absolutely Positively prove either thing to have existed. I can only Believe.

Me believing in God - in My Opinion, is more of a fact (Once again, in My Opinion) as opposed to my life being devoted to Christianity, which is a Faith.
I Believe in Christ, I Believe in the Bible (the KJV to be specific..if anyone cares..), however - No 100% honest skeptic can 100% say "Yes! This is Definitely what happened." if they were Not There physically in the first place.

..If anyone personally does care about why I'm a Christian, honestly - my perspective is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I was raised a Christian, my family is Christian and thought about that particular way of life from an early age. I pray to what I believe is the Christian God of the Bible, and from My life experience, my prayers have been answered. I live a relatively decent, healthy, and safe life - despite my craziness, my weirdness and despite my dark ways, such as being 90% Misanthropic. There are other things I've experienced in life that leads me to my faith as well..but I've said enough honestly, and it's stuff I won't share with anyone except my immediate family.

So..there ya have it. :3

My intention was just to explain why I am the way I am. If I offended anyone in Anyway at all, it is Completely unintentional. I love this community, so please do not think I'm out to get anyone or bring down anyone's beliefs/things that they stand for.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> Tbh I don't really think that a fully sentient, intelligent and therefore complex entity with the power to create the universe, but that has presumably no origin themself, would pass through the Occam's razor. That such a complex being would exist without any cause is a lot less believable than an incredibly small and compact ball of energy, matter and antimatter existing without any cause.
> 
> Unless you believe that the creator had an origin, in that case: where would that creator come from? (Though honeslty we could go towards infinity with this one. If the creator comes from another universe, where would that universe come from?) And at this point we would have to assume that another universe or creator created the creator, etc. so we would have to assume even more



It is the simplest explanation for the creation of the universe so yes it obeys the scientific principle of Occam's razor. 
I would also like to add that the theistic view I use does not require God himself to have any origin or creator. 
But you are right that we could go to infinity with this, if you operate under the idea that the creator of the universe has to have a creator himself. 
But infinity is something that is not actually possible in the real world. Never-ending anything is only a mathematical concept.
Which still leaves a God as our simplest explanation. Solving the entire equation with the fewest assumptions.


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## modfox (Mar 20, 2019)

the church of jim


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## Brooks Dotson (Mar 20, 2019)

Personally i never saw any reason to believe in any kind of deity, so naturally aetheism seemed about right for me, i'm glad to know there's other like-minded individuals


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Mar 20, 2019)

Atheist.
I don't mind/care about religion in general, but for the love of your "god" don't force it on others.
And do not attempt to think with it.
And don't use it as any form of excuse for "hate", it only just proves people's point of that "religion is bad and causes the world's problems", prove them wrong for once!


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 20, 2019)

Atheist myself.


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## Cyroo (Mar 21, 2019)

Mr. Fox said:


> Cool, I'm a Pizzafarian.



This clearly means war.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 21, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> This clearly means war.


Pizza, pasta, it's all the same to Pizzafarian's. We do, however, are opposed to those that disregard all things delicious.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Mar 21, 2019)

Coming from the spirituality thread, I like to think of myself as agnostic. I don't make assumptions of God-entities/beings. Something beyond our current plane of existence is an ocean of potential that could just as easily be empty. I do admire the dedication to belief some have, the universe is an unforgiving and lonely space, and we are inconceivably tiny. Thoughts like those can damage the mind of someone unprepared to hear them.


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## Furrium (Mar 21, 2019)

Of course, I am not an atheist, but I still don’t understand how people can pray to a Jew carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago. People believe that there is heaven and hell, although there is no evidence for this. Some people even believe that the circle consists of 9 circles, although this was invented by some kind of visionary Dante. We seem to have a revolution in technology, chemistry, language, etc., but we still have not changed religion. Maybe then we just climb back into the cave because life is weakly changed. It can be concluded that faith is the meaning of life, but there are atheists who live well without it.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 21, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> There is literally nothing more we can learn about the origin of universal constants. We know what the universal constants are exactly, but we haven't a clue _why_ they are. What existed before the universe existed? Is this the only way to make a universe? Or could you accomplish something similar with a slightly different universal gravitational constant, speed of light, ect...? Why is the universe even 3 dimensional?
> 
> I think it is a bit overconfident to think that we could just discover the reason for the existence of the universe and the laws that govern it with just research.
> There is a missing puzzle piece at the center of the existence of everything in the shape of a creator.


Here's where there's a disconnect. You believe there to be a creator, a "god of the gaps", so to speak, for things we can't explain. Our knowledge and understanding of everything is completely new in pretty much every area, but that does not mean there's a creator behind things we don't have the understanding of yet. I personally don't see the concept of a creator a feasible way of trying to explain things we don't know yet.

Remember, barely 500 years ago we thought our planet was the center of the universe. Our understanding and knowledge are ever-increasing on a yearly basis. 

There is no shame in admitting to not knowing yet. That's the whole point of science: To get to the bottom of things.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm an atheist, but if I was going to be religious, it would have to be the Norse Deities. Tyr in particular.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 21, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Here's where there's a disconnect. You believe there to be a creator, a "god of the gaps", so to speak, for things we can't explain. Our knowledge and understanding of everything is completely new in pretty much every area, but that does not mean there's a creator behind things we don't have the understanding of yet. I personally don't see the concept of a creator a feasible way of trying to explain things we don't know yet.
> 
> Remember, barely 500 years ago we thought our planet was the center of the universe. Our understanding and knowledge are ever-increasing on a yearly basis.
> 
> There is no shame in admitting to not knowing yet. That's the whole point of science: To get to the bottom of things.



Why do you keep saying we dont know _yet. _We literally _cant_ know. The answers to our questions stop existing entirely at the natural laws. Like there is no more gaining knowledge past this. Scientists arent just gonna one day discover _why_ the universal gravitational constant G is the specific value that it is. There is no just discovering that. You see?


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## Yakamaru (Mar 21, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Why do you keep saying we dont know _yet. _We literally _cant_ know. The answers to our questions stop existing entirely at the natural laws. Like there is no more gaining knowledge past this. Scientists arent just gonna one day discover _why_ the universal gravitational constant G is the specific value that it is. There is no just discovering that. You see?


Here's the thing tho. Our knowledge is expanding constantly with discoveries, big and small, on a weekly basis. Hence the statement: "We don't know yet". That is a statement of ignorance, not a statement of any kind of fact or definitive answer. Ignorance that is easily cured through knowledge and understanding. We want answers, which is why we have science in the first place. Answers to our questions, and at times questions to our answers. To find out who we are, what we are, where we came from and more importantly, where we are going. 

"We already know everything there is to know" is something people have said for who knows how many generations. We heard it 100 years ago, we heard it 50 years ago. And we are hearing it now. And yet, here we stand with scientific discoveries being made constantly. We are but fledglings when it comes to science in general, and it's foolish to make any kind of definitive statements this early in our species' history on the science front.

Theology doesn't tell you how astrophysics work, nor does it tell you what a Higgs-Boson is nor how the human brain works. That is not the job of theology. Science and theology are two completely different entitites and don't mix. It does however become a bit of a problem when theological texts try and explain how the real world works/is. Which is why you are seeing more and more atheists popping up on an ever-increasing basis. Theology don't answers to the questions we have. Or the answers don't correspond with reality.


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## Peach's (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm an atheist wanting to turn pagan. Too many hours of atheists complain about religious people are kind of fucked with my brain in that I cannot believe in shit easily. I am very much in a "I want to believe," mode right now.

For the past 9 months I have found myself drawn to depictions of elves, and then recently I've found myself feel much more in tune with nature, I cried when I saw a big flock of birds fly over me for 15 minutes, and I sensed that there was a fish in a stream, I threw a stick in the stream and it turned out my sense was right.

The earth is at equilibrium and the moon is full, come at me spirits.

I've always believed in math however as metaphysical / platonic, so I was never a pure materialist. 

Transgender stuff might also be spiritual... I'm all over the place right now lol


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## Yakamaru (Mar 21, 2019)

Oh. Forgot to add this..

Theology in general make pretty decent bases for moral values/virtues. One of the reasons I am in favor of a decent amount of Judeo-Christian ones. Some of them are outdated obviously, but they can either be changed to fit the current times or ditched alltogether depending on what is needed.


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## ManicTherapsid (Mar 21, 2019)

Christian leaning Agnostic with pantheistic tendencies.


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## Faexie (Mar 21, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Here's where there's a disconnect. You believe there to be a creator, a "god of the gaps", so to speak, for things we can't explain. Our knowledge and understanding of everything is completely new in pretty much every area, but that does not mean there's a creator behind things we don't have the understanding of yet. I personally don't see the concept of a creator a feasible way of trying to explain things we don't know yet.
> 
> Remember, barely 500 years ago we thought our planet was the center of the universe. Our understanding and knowledge are ever-increasing on a yearly basis.
> 
> There is no shame in admitting to not knowing yet. That's the whole point of science: To get to the bottom of things.


Humanity has always been using deities and spirits as explanations for things they don't understand. I have nothing against this in itself, but often society gets so attached to these beliefs that they will prevent others to seek the truth. This is where it gets bad.


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## Peach's (Mar 21, 2019)

Woah hold on now


> Redacted by staff


Did you really just sneak in some anti-transgender stuff into your giant wall of text about spirituality?

Dude, you literally believe in actual clerical magic, someone claiming that they have a woman soul or whatever is like nothing in comparison. You have no argument here besides just your supposition.






I don't even want to have a debate on this topic about the legitimacy of transgender people, but just the fact that you can twist yourself in knots like this.

Also I am a gender-druid


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## larigot (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm ok with God - I'm just bothered by his fan club.


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## Rainbow Roo (Mar 21, 2019)

Peebes said:


> Woah hold on now
> 
> Did you really just sneak in some anti-transgender stuff into your giant wall of text about spirituality?
> 
> ...




I didn't sneak anything into my posts.  It's all laid out there, for you and others to attack or criticize as you wish.  As I said - I realize my stance isn't going to be the popular stance given how there are a number of trans/gay people in furry - but it is my stance after having lived my life as a transgender individual.  If I am suddenly an opponent to you because I am no longer 'on your side', I don't know what to tell you.  It is up to you to live your life the way you wish, and I am not telling you you have to live it the way I am living mine.  Someone made a thread to talk about theism/atheism, and I wanted to say how my life has been impacted by at first having no faith in my life and then having faith.


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## Faexie (Mar 21, 2019)

> Redacted by staff


Just a question: What made you become a christian, and such a strict one at that?


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## Yakamaru (Mar 21, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> Humanity has always been using deities and spirits as explanations for things they don't understand. I have nothing against this in itself, but often society gets so attached to these beliefs that they will prevent others to seek the truth. This is where it gets bad.


Indeed. 

We've used deities and spirits to explain the unknown. But the time of superstition is over as we've slowly moved towards becoming more educated and learning about our environment and ourselves.

Superstition stems from ignorance, and ignorance in and of itself isn't dangerous. You just need incentives to deal with it through education, knowledge and understanding.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 21, 2019)

> Redacted by staff


So you just called trans folk degenerate, so you can take your claims you aren't judgemental and stick them where the sun don't shine. This post is impressively Transphobic when you consider despite the passages against being gay in the bible, being Trans isn't really addressed outside of not getting body modifications like surgery.

And that last line bears some explaining....

This post is just generally demonstrative of the worst side of faith, the zealots. People who reject scientific and medical studies regarding gender and much more in order to justify their continued adherence to what has been the norm of understanding for centuries. A rejection shackled like a corpse to their faith in order to keep it propped up.

This isn't representative of faith in general, but when I say faith is neither good nor evil but what is made of it; it is this particular making of it that leads down a path of bigotry and eventual violence either in the streets or through systematic policy against those it targets. This gives us phobic violence and conversion therapy.

Be religious if that is your will, but do not let your faith become a vessel and accelerant for hatred.


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## Cyroo (Mar 21, 2019)

Mr. Fox said:


> Pizza, pasta, it's all the same to Pizzafarian's. We do, however, are opposed to those that disregard all things delicious.



So vegans?


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## Faexie (Mar 21, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> So vegans?


I'm a vegan and I like pizza and pasta so nah


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## Cyroo (Mar 21, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> I'm a vegan and I like pizza and pasta so nah



No real cheese or meat...poor things.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 21, 2019)

This thread is being temporarily locked for review.  It will be unlocked later tonight.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 21, 2019)

This thread has now been re-opened.  

To those who notice what has changed:  Please don't bring it up further.  Staff have taken action and we'll leave it there.  

And if further action is needed we will take it.


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## Tendo64 (Mar 22, 2019)

Personally, I'm agnostic, although I guess I lean towards atheism. But I never find myself able to be certain on anything because IMO I'll never truly know what happens after death until I die. If anything, I might believe in reincarnation in a way--but I don't think that whether you were good or not determines anything, maybe it's just random?

But from what I can see, no afterlife seems the most likely to me. I don't see how one could work, but hey, I'm no expert either, so.


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## Simo (Mar 22, 2019)




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## Telnac (Mar 22, 2019)

Christian, tho I can see why many ppl believe pasta is divine.


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## Diabase (Mar 22, 2019)

My opinion is that god neither thinks like a person, nor did he made man as his counterpart, nor did he incarnate himself as a carpenter in what is today known as Israel.

The experiences I had made me think that god realized *himself in nature* with the Big Bang. He must have been a great scientist, adjusting all denominations and constants so *he* wouldn't collapse in a matter of seconds. An universe without a creature with mind, spirit, soul and morale would have been too boring for God, so he adjusted all denominations and constants for *us* to emerge.

I'm open to further discuss on that.


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## WolfyAmbassador (Mar 23, 2019)

Still haven't found my way but leaning toward luciferianism.


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 23, 2019)

Well I don't consider myself to be very christian, even tho I was raised that way. but I do believe in a higher power. I don't think there's a problem with religion in and of itself, and I don't think we should get rid of it completely because most people who are religious don't hurt anyone. It's the people who twist the words of those religions that harm other people.

I get if you're an athiest and you think believing in something like god is silly that you would also think we should just get rid of it completely, but idk getting rid of it would entail a lot and you can't change a persons mind that easily. I say we should let people believe in the things they want, but we also shouldn't look down or belittle their beliefs.


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## Peach's (Mar 23, 2019)

WolfyAmbassador said:


> Still haven't found my way but leaning toward luciferianism.



Looking it up, it appears that this type of Satanism has socialist influences from its origin, interesting.


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## WolfyAmbassador (Mar 23, 2019)

Peebes said:


> Looking it up, it appears that this type of Satanism has socialist influences from its origin, interesting.


 It is interesting, and even if you take the Lucifer part out, it still aligns with my overall spiritual beliefs. However, that doesn't mean I agree with every single principle.


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 23, 2019)

WolfyAmbassador said:


> It is interesting, and even if you take the Lucifer part out, it still aligns with my overall spiritual beliefs. However, that doesn't mean I agree with every single principle.


I read a book on satanism once, it was very informative, and kind of interesting, tho i don't think i can see myself as one.


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## Peach's (Mar 23, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I read a book on satanism once, it was very informative, and kind of interesting, tho i don't think i can see myself as one.


The most common types of Satanists out there are just doing it as an elaborate joke to troll Christians, and what there is philosophically is just a mystical version of Ayn Rand's Objectivism.


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 23, 2019)

Peebes said:


> The most common types of Satanists out there are just doing it as an elaborate joke to troll Christians, and what there is philosophically is just a mystical version of Ayn Rand's Objectivism.



Yeah I know, which is why I don't think I could ever see myself as one lol.


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## WolfyAmbassador (Mar 23, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I read a book on satanism once, it was very informative, and kind of interesting, tho i don't think i can see myself as one.


 Luciferianism has nothing to do with satanism, nothing to do with darkness, rebellion and all that like satanism, it's more like it represents what a "God" figure should be imo.


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 23, 2019)

*this is very long and its just me rambling about my own life so:*

Though something interesting to note, one time I went to a funeral about last year and the pastor inadverntently kind of hinted at the deceased person coming back in another form? It was kind of weird, to me at least because we were in a very christian church, but now that I think about it my whole family has always had the inkling that reincarnation was a thing even tho we were christians, but i think that just has more to do with us originating from New orleans than anything. Even tho we all say were christians, we've alwasy dabbled in things that were definitly not christian. My great aunt used to give me dream catchers as a kid, we all believed that dreams were important or that they meant something, and my moms sis even once admitted she thinks the reason she's so afraid of heights is because she died that way in a past life.

I personally think dreams mean things. One time I had a dream that my family got in a car crash but something had pulled them out at the last second. When i woke up, i checked the garage and the car was fucking totaled. Turns out they really _did _ get into a car crash, and someone really did pull them out before they could be seriously injured. And this other time I had a dream that I found money in my bookshelf, so when I woke up i started to check the books themselves, and I came up with 5 dollars. So idk how to explain that, I don't think they were coincedences, I think sometimes dreams just tell you stuff randomly.

other than the weird dream thing, my mom does do things that are definitly not christian, and could possibly get her in trouble with anyone calling themselves one? I'm starting to wonder if were we ever christians to begin with now. We stopped going to church years ago, and at first the xcuse was because my dad was sick which he was at the time he had cancer, but he's better now and he walks around just fine. So now we just don't go to church at all, and idk why my parents decided to stop.


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## Faexie (Mar 23, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> *this is very long and its just me rambling about my own life so:*
> 
> Though something interesting to note, one time I went to a funeral about last year and the pastor inadverntently kind of hinted at the deceased person coming back in another form? It was kind of weird, to me at least because we were in a very christian church, but now that I think about it my whole family has always had the inkling that reincarnation was a thing even tho we were christians, but i think that just has more to do with us originating from New orleans than anything. Even tho we all say were christians, we've alwasy dabbled in things that were definitly not christian. My great aunt used to give me dream catchers as a kid, we all believed that dreams were important or that they meant something, and my moms sis even once admitted she thinks the reason she's so afraid of heights is because she died that way in a past life.
> 
> ...


If you still believe in God and follow Jesus, you're a christian, I would say. There are so many different christianities!


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 23, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> If you still believe in God and follow Jesus, you're a christian, I would say. There are so many different christianities!


I guess, but that's kind of why i stopped being a christian or at least why i stopped calling myself one. My whole life i was told that there was just one way to follow god and that's through the bible, but then I was introduced to the fact that there are many versions of the bible that I had never seen before, and it made me question everything. I mean, how can there be one word of god if there are like a million different versions of the same book but with omitted stories and lessons? How ami i supposed to know which one is actually the word of God and not something some priest added in order to control the masses easier. It makes all the more questionable stories in the bible make way more sense. I mean, a god whose supposed to be loving leads a bunch of people through the desert ordering them to kill anyone in their path who doesn't believe in him? How does that make any sense? Or a god who claims to be understanding burning an entire city down, and then punishing a woman for looking back at her home for the final time? Or a god who claims to love you forcing a man to almost murder his son in cold blood because he wants to test his loyalty? or a god who basically ruins one mans life and leaves him at the mercy of satan himself in order to prove how loyal he could be to him?

It sounds terrifying, and I'm suspecting thats because it was made up. I don't think god would do such awful things, because I would like to believe that he's not a heartless monster.


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## WolfyAmbassador (Mar 23, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I guess, but that's kind of why i stopped being a christian or at least why i stopped calling myself one. My whole life i was told that there was just one way to follow god and that's through the bible, but then I was introduced to the fact that there are many versions of the bible that I had never seen before, and it made me question everything. I mean, how can there be one word of god if there are like a million different versions of the same book but with omitted stories and lessons? How ami i supposed to know which one is actually the word of God and not something some priest added in order to control the masses easier. It makes all the more questionable stories in the bible make way more sense. I mean, a god whose supposed to be loving leads a bunch of people through the desert ordering them to kill anyone in their path who doesn't believe in him? How does that make any sense? Or a god who claims to be understanding burning an entire city down, and then punishing a woman for looking back at her home for the final time? Or a god who claims to love you forcing a man to almost murder his son in cold blood because he wants to test his loyalty? or a god who basically ruins one mans life and leaves him at the mercy of satan himself in order to prove how loyal he could be to him?
> 
> It sounds terrifying, and I'm suspecting thats because it was made up. I don't think god would do such awful things, because I would like to believe that he's not a heartless monster.


 That's where luciferianism comes in.


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## Peach's (Mar 23, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> If you still believe in God and follow Jesus, you're a christian, I would say. There are so many different christianities!



I like the scene from American Gods were it is revealed that there is a Jesus for every different kind of Christianity. (most people in this picture are Jesus)


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 23, 2019)

Peebes said:


> I like the scene from American Gods were it is revealed that there is a Jesus for every different kind of Christianity. (most people in this picture are Jesus)



Idk why, but this reminds me of a lie my mom told me about santa claus. One time I asked her if santa was white or if he was black because when i was little i had seen different santa claus' and she told me that santa just changes his race based on the family inside of the house. So if its asian family, he's an asian man. If its a black family, than he becomes a black man, and if its a white family than he becomes a white man, and so and so on.


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## JakeTheFoXx (Mar 23, 2019)

Alert***some may find a bummer ahead*** lol

Raised Christian, and somedays I believe it, other days I dont. The belief in God was entrenched within our household growing up, and became more intense with time. Being that I was a people pleaser, and wanted to make my parents proud, I was quite the little Christian kid myself. Only problem was, I was gay. I fought the "gay" as hard as I could because it simply wasnt compatible with how I felt, knowing i couldn't change it. Christianity was so ingrained in my head that I accepted myself as gay, and hated myself for it. Because I felt like a reject from God. Came close to taking my own life (had the note set out, and tried drinking myself into being able to pulling the trigger). Well that was several years ago, and I havent been there ever since. And thankfully I pulled through and am thankful for it, but I decided that any relationship I have with God was between me and God. It wasnt necessarily God making me feel rejected, but Christians.  Even still as time has gone on, my faith has waned. For instance. I had the the thought a few years ago about region and religion. For instance, I'm Christian because I was born in a Christian region. What if I was born in afganistan, or Iran? Would I still be a Christian? Not likely, I'd likely be Muslim. So just because I was born here, makes my spiritual beliefs right? And everyone else wrong? That simply cant be. Anywho, I still have my days where I feel like it's still so ingrained in me that there is a God, and then there are days where I feel like our planet just had the right circumstances upon it at the right time, and that in a universe of infinite possibilities, it could be possible that our existence just happened by pure luck. I guess as I write this, I dont know if this is the proper place to post this. But feel like an opportunity of learning for me could come of this. I would never tell someone that their belief in a God or gods is wrong. I would also never tell someone that believes there is no God that there is one or many, simply because I just dont know. I guess I dont really know the true definition and differences between atheism and what agnostic is. Hope I'm not over the line for posting this, and if I am, please alert me.

*hugs all*


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## Faexie (Mar 23, 2019)

JakeTheFoXx said:


> Alert***some may find a bummer ahead*** lol
> 
> Raised Christian, and somedays I believe it, other days I dont. The belief in God was entrenched within our household growing up, and became more intense with time. Being that I was a people pleaser, and wanted to make my parents proud, I was quite the little Christian kid myself. Only problem was, I was gay. I fought the "gay" as hard as I could because it simply wasnt compatible with how I felt, knowing i couldn't change it. Christianity was so ingrained in my head that I accepted myself as gay, and hated myself for it. Because I felt like a reject from God. Came close to taking my own life (had the note set out, and tried drinking myself into being able to pulling the trigger). Well that was several years ago, and I havent been there ever since. And thankfully I pulled through and am thankful for it, but I decided that any relationship I have with God was between me and God. It wasnt necessarily God making me feel rejected, but Christians.  Even still as time has gone on, my faith has waned. For instance. I had the the thought a few years ago about region and religion. For instance, I'm Christian because I was born in a Christian region. What if I was born in afganistan, or Iran? Would I still be a Christian? Not likely, I'd likely be Muslim. So just because I was born here, makes my spiritual beliefs right? And everyone else wrong? That simply cant be. Anywho, I still have my days where I feel like it's still so ingrained in me that there is a God, and then there are days where I feel like our planet just had the right circumstances upon it at the right time, and that in a universe of infinite possibilities, it could be possible that our existence just happened by pure luck. I guess as I write this, I dont know if this is the proper place to post this. But feel like an opportunity of learning for me could come of this. I would never tell someone that their belief in a God or gods is wrong. I would also never tell someone that believes there is no God that there is one or many, simply because I just dont know. I guess I dont really know the true definition and differences between atheism and what agnostic is. Hope I'm not over the line for posting this, and if I am, please alert me.
> 
> *hugs all*


Thanks for sharing! *hugs you back*

Most people see agnosticism as not being sure if god(s) exist or not, and atheism as the belief that there is no god.

However, based on the root words in these terms, agnosticism would mean not knowing and atheism would mean not having a religion. There is also gnostism (knowing) and of course theism.

So there are agnostic atheists (people who don't have a religion but aren't sure if there's a deity out there or not), agnostic theists (people who aren't sure that their god exists or that their religion is right, but stay theist because their religion brings something good to them or they fear repercussions if they abandon it), gnostic atheists (those who claim with certainty that there is no god) and gnostic theists (those who claim that their god exists and that their religion is right)

Noting that lack of belief doesn't mean belief in the opposite. Saying that you don't believe in God because there's no evidence is different than saying that there is no God because there's no evidence.


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## Kylan Velpa (Mar 24, 2019)

I have an opinion on this which I think is fairly unique. I'm going to split it into a few different points.

1. Science is tried and tested to near-perfection so that's what I always believe in

2. However, this doesn't mean I disagree with the idea of a god. Science can currently neither prove or disprove God so who am I to presume that? (If you want more on this look up quantum physics, you know like Schrödinger's cat stuff)

3. Whilst I accept that God may well exist, I don't think that the general portrayal is likely. I don't think a god would value humans above all else, or that a god could ever condone violence. I would think it's more like a mother nature kind of thing. Some being who values all of creation equally, and doesn't differentiate between anything except love and hatred would make more sense to me.

By the way, I don't want anyone to take offense from this. I would never wish to impose my views on others and my saying I disagree with you isn't me claiming you are wrong. All my opinions are posted with love and kindness. Besides, religion is a great thing. Each religion comes with a doctrine that describes how to live a normal life, which I think is ace, and so many good things for communities and for the world come from religion. So please don't take offense!


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## CaptainCool (Mar 31, 2019)

I see myself as an agnostic atheist but also as an anti-theist. I hate religion.

Sure, people should be allowed to believe. As long as I am being left alone with it and as long as it isn't being rubbed in my face I'm good.
However, since religion is, by design, a concept meant for manipulating others to give people with money even more money... Yeah that usually doesn't happen.

The concept itself also just rubs me the wrong way. Everything needs a creator that doesn't need a creator itself? That doesn't answer anything!

Not to mention that so many problems within society as a whole come from religion. ISIS, hate towards LGBT people, undermining science, misogyny...

I don't want to go on a rant here because I had a good day. To sum it up, I think religions are fairytales for people who simply aren't capable of understanding scientific facts or those who were brainwashed into believing that science is false or evil.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Mar 31, 2019)

I wouldn't say I'm an atheist as I do believe that there is a higher power which drives people to do extraordinary deeds. That power is money. The only thing it cannot do is bring someone from the dead, or prevent its user of dying. Yet.


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## Italo Fox (Mar 31, 2019)

Space is weird, so I'm more agnostic.

I grew up in a Roman Catholic family so it's not in my position to question someone's faith. Once a year I'll go to church with my mum.


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## A Minty cheetah (Mar 31, 2019)

CaptainCool said:


> I see myself as an agnostic atheist but also as an anti-theist. I hate religion.
> 
> Sure, people should be allowed to believe. As long as I am being left alone with it and as long as it isn't being rubbed in my face I'm good.
> However, since religion is, by design, a concept meant for manipulating others to give people with money even more money... Yeah that usually doesn't happen.
> ...



This is pretty much my stance on the whole topic. I don't mind if people follow a religion as it can be a way to help cope with all the crap that life throws at us all. As long as I'm left to my thing, I'll let religious folk do their thing - -live and let live.


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## countess_jay (Nov 15, 2019)

I'm atheist but I'm confused about what agnosticism is. Some say that you believe in christ but you don't believe it simultaneously and some thing you believe the existence of any god is unknown. If the second definition is legit, then i'm more agnostic. I'm open to going to a place of worship just to be curious and going to my former church to say hi to people I've known (my family is popular in church).


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 16, 2019)

countess_jay said:


> I'm atheist but I'm confused about what agnosticism is. Some say that you believe in christ but you don't believe it simultaneously and some thing you believe the existence of any god is unknown. If the second definition is legit, then i'm more agnostic. I'm open to going to a place of worship just to be curious and going to my former church to say hi to people I've known (my family is popular in church).


Basic definition of Agnosticism is belief there is/could easily be a God, but we don't/can't know what it is.
Alternative definition: I don't believe there is a God, but Atheists (especially young Atheists) can be annoying and I don't want to be identified or even have to interact with the annoying ones, so I pretend to be Agnostic to distance myself.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Nov 16, 2019)

Oh wow. Was this thread created for me?
Heh heh... I watch a ton of atheist content.


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## Filter (Nov 16, 2019)

There are agnostic atheists and agnostic theists. An agnostic atheist thinks we can't know for sure, but figures there probably isn't a God. An agnostic theist thinks we can't know for sure, but figures there probably is a God.

What I find interesting is how often science is used in the atheist/theist debate. Science itself is agnostic. It doesn't tell us one way or another whether there's a God. That's more of a philosophical question.

People should respect each other's philosophical opinions, even if they disagree with them. There are good atheists and bad atheists. There are good theists and bad theists. Unfortunately, provocateurs on both sides like to lump everyone who doesn't share their opinion into the "bad" category, and stir the pot. Not cool.


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## Peach's (Nov 18, 2019)

I've found that the term "Agnostic" how a self proclaimed Agnostic will use it has almost nothing to do with the definition that I see people talk of with 'Agnostic Atheism." From them I get more of an "idk, maybe god exists, maybe not, who is to say." Its more similar to Apatheism in how its talked about.


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 18, 2019)

I'm a religious person. I take all the good parts Christianity offers and follow them and ignore the bad things that I don't want in my life.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 18, 2019)

CaptainCool said:


> I see myself as an agnostic atheist but also as an anti-theist. I hate religion.
> 
> Sure, people should be allowed to believe. As long as I am being left alone with it and as long as it isn't being rubbed in my face I'm good.
> However, since religion is, by design, a concept meant for manipulating others to give people with money even more money... Yeah that usually doesn't happen.


People seem to forget that Buddhism is a religion. And it doesn't need to be fed with money either, nor with a god people don't want to believe in.


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## reptile logic (Nov 18, 2019)

My view:

Organized religion is among the oldest forms, if not the oldest form, of government.

The positive:
It can offer people a sense of belonging to something greater than themselves. Through the promise of a better existence in the next life/place, it can help those who lead unsatisfactory or difficult lives to endure. It can connect people from different backgrounds through shared purpose; provide common ground through shared rules and rituals that can create a greater sense of community, beyond the family unit or clan. It can even provide food and shelter for the least able among us, by instructing the more able among us to lend a hand.

The negative:
Organized religion, as a form of government, is every bit as corruptible as any other form of government. Religious leaders can and have called upon the followers to persecute, steal from, and destroy those people who the leader(s) dislike or who own/control what the leader(s) want. "Because God (any god) says so," is often all a that religious person requires, in order to feel justified in robbing from, torturing, and killing other people. Religious leaders often gain great power, and wealth far beyond what their followers have. The leaders often become kings, and their underlings become dukes, counts, etc., differing from them only in name.

I personally reject worship, as dictated by organized religion. I live a good, simple life and treat others as I would like them to treat me. When this body dies, I will then find out what happens next. If there is nothing beyond this existence, I will be beyond caring.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 18, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> People seem to forget that Buddhism is a religion. And it doesn't need to be fed with money either, nor with a god people don't want to believe in.


Depends on the variety of Buddhism.
It does have a mythology, but it's so far removed from the core that it isn't a requisite to even believe in to be a Buddhist.


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## Faexie (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> People seem to forget that Buddhism is a religion. And it doesn't need to be fed with money either, nor with a god people don't want to believe in.


Buddhists are not as perfect as you think, there have been instances of buddhists persecuting people of other religions


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> Buddhists are not as perfect as you think, there have been instances of buddhists persecuting people of other religions


Not one religion is clean. Except for maybe some neo-pagan religions and even then I see some use their religion as an excuse to say the white race is superior.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> Buddhists are not as perfect as you think, there have been instances of buddhists persecuting people of other religions


One imperfect Buddhist still doesn't justify overgeneralizations like all religions are hungry for money. Pigeon hole thinking is rarely ever appropriate.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> One imperfect Buddhist still doesn't justify overgeneralizations like all religions are hungry for money. Pigeon hole thinking is rarely ever appropriate.


Buddhism and violence - Wikipedia For some history. And it's not just one Buddhist.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Buddhism and violence - Wikipedia For some history. And it's not just one Buddhist.


A) The Dalai Lama and many other leaders are openly condemning it B) "Buddhism is generally seen as among the religious traditions least associated with violence" C) Violence and self harm in protestest are acts of religious people (outside the norm, may I add, seeing that Buddhists do not demonstrate 24/7) not a pillar of a religion. There's a strong difference between _a religion_ and the religious acts of people that (mis)interpreted it.
Besides, that is neither related to money, nor is it a credible source. (See the picture below)


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## Peach's (Nov 19, 2019)

I mean, if you want to do for a religion that isn't connected to money, go for Wicca or Pagan stuff. The biggest issue you find with that stuff is psuedo-science and nazis respectively, and in the right circles you should be fine.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> A) The Dalai Lama and many other leaders are openly condemning it B) "Buddhism is generally seen as among the religious traditions least associated with violence" C) Violence and self harm in protestest are acts of religious people (outside the norm, may I add, seeing that Buddhists do not demonstrate 24/7) not a pillar of a religion. There's a strong difference between _a religion_ and the religious acts of people that (mis)interpreted it.
> Besides, that is neither related to money, nor is it a credible source. (See the picture below)


It quotes actual historical events. It's neutrality doesn't matter if it's quoting facts. And just becaus it's generally seen as the most peaceful doesn't mean it is. Also just because the Dalai Lama condemns violence doesn't mean it doesn't happen by buddhists.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 19, 2019)

Peebes said:


> I mean, if you want to do for a religion that isn't connected to money, go for Wicca or Pagan stuff. The biggest issue you find with that stuff is psuedo-science and nazis respectively, and in the right circles you should be fine.


Which Pagans if you don't mind me asking? I am following few cults however I condamn anyone from ever worshipping Chernobog


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> It quotes actual historical events. It's neutrality doesn't matter if it's quoting facts. And just becaus it's generally seen as the most peaceful doesn't mean it is. Also just because the Dalai Lama condemns violence doesn't mean it doesn't happen by buddhists.


And just because a minority acted a certain way doesn't mean that it should be held representative for the entire thing.



HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Which Pagans if you don't mind me asking? I am following few cults however I condamn anyone from ever worshipping Chernobog





Peebes said:


> [...]go for Wicca[...]


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> And just because a minority acted a certain way doesn't mean that it should be held representative for the entire thing.


I think people should stop turning a blind eye toward what their members do instead of saying "oh they aren't real (insert religious name here)".


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## Marius Merganser (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm NeoPagan, but not the superstitious/Harry Potter/New Age-y/fairy-tale kind.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I think people should stop turning a blind eye toward what their members do instead of saying "oh they aren't real (insert religious name here)".


Definitely, practitioners of any religion shouldn't be ignorant of their members  especially when they act or behave objectively wrong/against the believes of the religion.

However, how that statement is supposed to be related to wrongful stereotypicalization, I don't know.



Marius Merganser said:


> I'm NeoPagan, but not the superstitious/Harry Potter/New Age-y/fairy-tale kind.


Same, Wiccan to be specific, but I'm afraid I will forever be labelled a hardcore Buddhist now.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Definitely, practitioners of any religion shouldn't be ignorant of their members  especially when they act or behave objectively wrong/against the believes of the religion.
> 
> However, how that statement is supposed to be related to wrongful stereotypicalization, I don't know.
> 
> ...


I never stereotyped. I was just pointing out Buddhists aren't sunshine and rainbows just like every other religion.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I never stereotyped. I was just pointing out Buddhists aren't sunshine and rainbows just like every other religion.


I never used the word perfect (or any other similar superlative), why are we even at this point? Ô.ö


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> And just because a minority acted a certain way doesn't mean that it should be held representative for the entire thing.


Either you forgot to answer my question or you do not fully understand what paganism is.
And no, Wicca is not an answer.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Either you forgot to answer my question or you do not fully understand what paganism is.
> And no, Wicca is not an answer.


Pardon, I haven't seen you specifically directing a question at me in the last two pages. Only your post in which you quoted @Peebes. Can you quote yourself, if you could be so nice?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> I never used the word perfect (or any other similar superlative), why are we even at this point? Ô.ö


Just wanted to make it clear no religion is perfect. I'm done now.


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## Sir Thaikard (Nov 19, 2019)

Anyone not worshipping the God Emperor of Mankind is wrong.

Only through his guiding light may we find salvation in this dark millennium.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 19, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Pardon, I haven't seen you specifically directing a question at me in the last two pages. Only your post in which you quoted @Peebes. Can you quote yourself, if you could be so nice?



But of course. My deepest apologies if by any means I sounded rude.

"Which Pagans if you don't mind me asking? I am following few cults however I condamn anyone from ever worshipping Chernobog"
(And yeah... I dont know how to quote properly so pardon me for that >.< )


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 19, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> But of course. My deepest apologies if by any means I sounded rude.
> 
> "Which Pagans if you don't mind me asking? I am following few cults however I condamn anyone from ever worshipping Chernobog"
> (And yeah... I dont know how to quote properly so pardon me for that >.< )


Ah shit, seeing that the question followed a quote from Peebes I never would've guessed that it was actually directed at me, thanks for clearing that up.
The most dominant thought of "neo paganism that doesn't exist solely for gathering money but has problems with nazis/right extremism" is Asatru. Generally I feel like that even though it has nothing to do with them, the more Germanic/Nordic things get the more it seems to attract those people.

Now, if I _still _seem like I misunderstood your question, I probably did, which I'm sorry for.
( Also, for PC and Android phones there's a teeny tiny reply text, usually on the bottom right beneath every post that was made in a thread. I hope that helps c: )


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Ah shit, seeing that the question followed a quote from Peebes I never would've guessed that it was actually directed at me, thanks for clearing that up.
> The most dominant thought of "neo paganism that doesn't exist solely for gathering money but has problems with nazis/right extremism" is Asatru. Generally I feel like that even though it has nothing to do with them, the more Germanic/Nordic things get the more it seems to attract those people.
> 
> Now, if I _still _seem like I misunderstood your question, I probably did, which I'm sorry for.
> ( Also, for PC and Android phones there's a teeny tiny reply text, usually on the bottom right beneath every post that was made in a thread. I hope that helps c: )


(Oh yeah, I know this way. I thought that you meant to ping myself somehow)

Thank you very much for the information.

Problem with Germanic and Norse paganism is that people are attracted to it only by media. Rarely I have met follower of Thor that was there not because of superhero movies.

I am strictly against neo-paganism for simple reason. Once we make it universal... it will be catastrophe. Paganism in many aspects mean worshipping multiple dieties. I can not imagine what would happen if we mixed Hindu, Roman, Germanic and Slavic dieties. However I am supporting the religious peace.

Here is where my answer to you dear... witch? Ends. I will continue with my own thing now.


Yet it is hard these days to even be religious. If you will go almost anywhere you will see people shouting "All religions should be banned" because they think they are better this way (and let's be honest, thinking like this is as bad as thinking of religious Zealot.
Now imagine if I said out loud that I'm a Christian Catholic, following Mokosh Cult, in many places I would be mixed with mud and called entire dictionary of insults just for this one sentance.
This happened on multiple occassions previously and will happen again.
So yeah, before we will do anything about any religion in world we should do something about ignorance.

And before someone will tell me something like "Ohh but science this and science that" yes, science is important but i dont know why should science go against religion. However people do not realize that atheism is not science. Once you get to drink from glass of science you will become atheist but once you finish the glass, God will wait for you on the bottom.

How do I know it? I went through it and finished the glass


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Nov 20, 2019)

I'm a hardline atheist generally, full-on anti-theist when it comes to the Abrahamic religions (for their misogyny, zoosadism and homophobia, among other things). The belief that humans are a "special" creation entitled to rule over all other life has caused so much destruction and cruelty that it should not be tolerated in this century.

On another note, I want to mention the problem of religious apologism. If you want to understand the nature of any religion, don't listen to its ambassadors online or in person. They're just trying to sell you something. Instead, look to places in the world where it holds political power (Pakistan, Iran, or the American South, for example). That is where a religion shows its real face.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> (Oh yeah, I know this way. I thought that you meant to ping myself somehow)
> 
> Thank you very much for the information.
> 
> ...


Everyone reaches their own conclusion. Just because you think science leads to God doesn't mean someone else sees it that way.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Once you get to drink from glass of science you will become atheist but once you finish the glass, God will wait for you on the bottom.
> 
> How do I know it? I went through it and finished the glass



Now, the most important exercise in this is to realize that _there is no glass._


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 20, 2019)

I'll jump in to say something.

I think science is the answer to how the world works and is, and religion is why it works and is. Some people take comfort in believing there is an divine explanation for the unknown and questions we can't yet explain with science. Science has gotten us incredibly far as a species, but we have also been holding religions hand for most of the journey.

Faith in a higher power might become obsolete one day, but the good morals and advice religions have provided us will be a part of the legacy of mankind forever.

Also, I see nothing wrong with people being an atheist. A lot of atheists I know have good judgement, morals, and do plenty of acts of kindness, examples being my own family who I love dearly. Religion is an option, not a requirement, for those who want advice on how to live their lives.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

ConorHyena said:


> Now, the most important exercise in this is to realize that _there is no glass._


See it in wider view and you will get what I mean.


Ovi the Dragon said:


> Everyone reaches their own conclusion. Just because you think science leads to God doesn't mean someone else sees it that way.


I didn't said it leads to God (in fact? It might if you will try to drink it from chemical science <.< ). However you only confirmed what I meant.

But try to drink from that glass first, many scientists were and are religious. To not be empty worded I will give the name.
 Georges Lemaître - However I would like you to do your own research.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> See it in wider view and you will get what I mean.
> 
> I didn't said it leads to God (in fact? It might if you will try to drink it from chemical science <.< ). However you only confirmed what I meant.
> 
> ...



P.s - "God at the bottom of the glass" that is not my quote. Once I find a minute I will track down who said that.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> P.s - "God at the bottom of the glass" that is not my quote. Once I find a minute I will track down who said that.



*pet pet* I know it isn't. It's an interesting and wise quote.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

ConorHyena said:


> *pet pet* I know it isn't. It's an interesting and wise quote.


*Bites and scratches!* Don't you dare to pet me mutt! All of mutts are mistake in matrix! >:[


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## Skittles (Nov 20, 2019)

I think we should take this moment to appreciate this divine being and his good buddy.






On a more serious note. Religion is nice to have, but also a total dick, if you ask me. You will always have some radical numpties ruin it for the greater whole in one way or another. 

I don't actually know what I fit in personally. I revere nature and believe there is something! But it has no fixed catagory.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

Oh and one more thing. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu and everyone else. Even atheists are wrong... that includes you @Skittles 
There is only one religion worth following!





FOR THE EMPEROR!

(And Skittles, if you belive in something but do not know what then the term you are looking for is Agnostic.)


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## Skittles (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Oh and one more thing. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu and everyone else. Even atheists are wrong... that includes you @Skittles
> There is only one religion worth following!
> 
> 
> ...



Ah the big E! So beautiful!

And thanks! Can't say religion is my thing so I never really looked up a term for it.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

Skittles said:


> Ah the big E! So beautiful!
> 
> And thanks! Can't say religion is my thing so I never really looked up a term for it.


Whatever rocks your boat... or however do they say it ^^


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## Skittles (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Whatever rocks your boat... or however do they say it ^^



Whatever floats your boat. ;D usually nothing! I avoid boats! Haha


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## KimberVaile (Nov 20, 2019)

Just a little primer, not uber religious myslef. 
Agnostic, something might be up there, there are some signs that lend me to conclude as such, but I tend not to think about it.

With that out of the way, Religion can very easily spiral into something unpleasant, which I acknowledge and have seen. Though, I've also seen religion bring people together and form a sense of community, again, witnessed it myself, being raised Christian. Religion is more than simply a bad, or a good. Societally speaking, it can be unifying, and can be quite effective in building a societal moral compass.
Though again, implementation does often vary and leave much to be desired.

But again, Religion isn't as basic as, thing bad or thing good.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> *Bites and scratches!* Don't you dare to pet me mutt! All of mutts are mistake in matrix! >:[



I'm not a mutt, you silly bobcat. Hyenas are feliformia, much like you.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

ConorHyena said:


> I'm not a mutt, you silly bobcat. Hyenas are feliformia, much like you.


Pff! Still a mutt to me... wait a minute! Does it mean I am a mutt as well?!


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## ConorHyena (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Pff! Still a mutt to me... wait a minute! Does it mean I am a mutt as well?!



God has made us equal, my friend.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 20, 2019)

ConorHyena said:


> God has made us equal, my friend.


Sure but that doesn't change the fact thay cats are nore equal than the others!


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> See it in wider view and you will get what I mean.
> 
> I didn't said it leads to God (in fact? It might if you will try to drink it from chemical science <.< ). However you only confirmed what I meant.
> 
> ...


I see in no way how I confirmed what you meant. I simply said that for some people science does not lead to god.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 20, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> P.s - "God at the bottom of the glass"


I choose to misinterpret this as God is a bottom. uwu


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 20, 2019)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> I choose to misinterpret this as God is a bottom. uwu


You should join a Bible study group. You'd make it a lot more interesting for sure.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 20, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> You should join a Bible study group. You'd make it a lot more interesting for sure.


More bible study groups should exist. How a religion picked their sign based off of a thing that a very important person was tortured with is beyond me, someone must've been drunk there. Or they had a very strong sense of irony.


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 20, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> More bible study groups should exist. How a religion picked their sign based off of a thing that a very important person was tortured with is beyond me, someone must've been drunk there. Or they had a very strong sense of irony.


The cross is symbolic to the sacrifice Jesus made. It was a method of execution, yes, but it is also what he was willing to go through to teach love and kindness. The cross is important to Christianity because it's a reminder of what someone was willing to suffer in order to do what he believed was the right thing. That's a big reason as to why its our symbol.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 20, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> The cross is symbolic to the sacrifice Jesus made. It was a method of execution, yes, but it is also what he was willing to go through to teach love and kindness. The cross is important to Christianity because it's a reminder of what someone was willing to suffer in order to do what he believed was the right thing. That's a big reason as to why its our symbol.


Gosh darnit, I should start to mark sarcasm like they do in reddit /s
People take me too serious.


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 20, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Gosh darnit, I should start to mark sarcasm like they do in reddit /s
> People take me too serious.


 Sorry. I have the skill of detecting online sarcasm to that of a brick XD. Not your fault.


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## Punji (Nov 20, 2019)

I'm a Christian, though not very devout. To take it one step further I'm an evolutionary creationist.

In my opinion science absolutely leads to God. There appears to me to be an intentional design in many aspects of the various sciences, be that biology, chemistry, math, physics, astronomy, geology, all science leads me to the existence of an intelligent creator.

However, I can understand why people would disagree for one reason or another, be it rejecting religion as an opponent of science or rejecting science as an opponent of religion. In my mind the two are practically synonymous.

I think much of the "distaste" for religion some people possess tends to come from a position of ignorance. A lot of militant atheists I've heard over the years don't really come at the subject from an open-minded position and generally don't seem to understand the fundamentals they criticize. My father is staunchly anti-theistic but talking to him about anything related to Christianity is like talking to a dog about baking cakes; he doesn't have a lot of talking points even if he has the interest. Often people criticize religion based on misconceptions and the wrongful actions of others done "in the name of" religion.

A very common example is "being gay is a sin" or something to that effect, when such a thing is obviously untrue. Personally, from what I can tell it's a sin to have sex without the sharing of love and without the intent of procreation. A gay couple can absolutely hold a strong love for each other but would be committing sin by doing the business because the two could never produce a child, just as a straight couple is committing sin by doing it out of boredom or just as a causal affair. People tend to cut out the bits they don't like and use what's left to justify their own actions and beliefs, even when they are told to love others.

 I don't think I even have to say anything about the many wrongful things directly opposed by Christian doctrine which members of the Church have done over the years either.

I don't believe non-Christians are condemned to damnation or that any sin is unforgivable. Judgement is reserved for the Lord. I also believe in the absolution of sin through suffering, and that most if not all are destined for salvation. Ultimately I don't think people should be forced or pressured into believing something or nothing, individuals ought to be free to hold and express their own beliefs.

Just a few scattered thoughts.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 20, 2019)

Punji said:


> I'm a Christian, though not very devout. To take it one step further I'm an evolutionary creationist.
> 
> In my opinion science absolutely leads to God. There appears to me to be an intentional design in many aspects of the various sciences, be that biology, chemistry, math, physics, astronomy, geology, all science leads me to the existence of an intelligent creator.
> 
> ...


So basically you just said being gay was a sin as long as we're just talking about gay sex. Nice.


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## Punji (Nov 20, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> So basically you just said being gay was a sin as long as we're just talking about gay sex. Nice.



No, you've entirely jumped the gun.

It's a sin to bang if you're not trying for a child with someone you love. Only biologically male and female couples can reproduce, so anything else is sinful, gay or not.

Loving another person romantically regardless of their character or physical attributes is not sinful, acting on solely lustful desires is. The point is that people will look at that and in a monument to hypocrisy say "being gay is a sin" while ignoring the their own guilt of such a sin.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 20, 2019)

Punji said:


> No, you've entirely jumped the gun.
> 
> It's a sin to bang if you're not trying for a child with someone you love. Only biologically male and female couples can reproduce, so anything else is sinful, gay or not.
> 
> Loving another person romantically regardless of their character or physical attributes is not sinful, acting on solely lustful desires is.


Yeah yeah. You can try to reword it all you want but you said gay sex was a sin.


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## Punji (Nov 20, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Yeah yeah. You can try to reword it all you want but you said gay sex was a sin.



Sorry, I edited the post a bit before you replied in exactly four seconds, so if you care you might want to give it a quick reread.

But yes, gay sex is sinful. Being gay is not. Sex for the sake of sex is sinful.


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## Marius Merganser (Nov 20, 2019)

Punji said:


> I think much of the "distaste" for religion some people possess tends to come from a position of ignorance.



I would argue it comes from the corruption, hypocrisy, and vitriol from those who would claim to hold a monopoly on morality.


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## Punji (Nov 20, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> I would argue it comes from the corruption, hypocrisy, and vitriol from those who would claim to hold a monopoly on morality.



I don't disagree, but I think people sometimes forget the person is what's wrong.


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## Marius Merganser (Nov 20, 2019)

Punji said:


> I don't disagree, but I think people sometimes forget the person is what's wrong.



Everyone thinks their interpretation of scripture is the correct one and everyone else is wrong.


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## Punji (Nov 20, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> Everyone thinks their interpretation of scripture is the correct one and everyone else is wrong.



I don't think that's a very fair generalization, but I suppose it'd be silly to say that's not the case for a lot of people.

As long as no one shoves it down someone's throat and they are open to discussion is all I ask, personally. Sometimes people just aren't interested in listening to the other side and condemn atheists/theists, and I don't think that's right.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 20, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> Everyone thinks their interpretation of scripture is the correct one and everyone else is wrong.


That's the way everyone in my old town was.


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## Marius Merganser (Nov 20, 2019)

Punji said:


> As long as no one shoves it down someone's throat and they are open to discussion is all I ask, personally.



I'm reminded of the high frequency with which Christians seek to legislate their beliefs in the US.


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## Punji (Nov 20, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> I'm reminded of the high frequency with which Christians seek to legislate their beliefs in the US.



All the more reason to dislike politicians!


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## Sir Thaikard (Nov 20, 2019)




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## Marius Merganser (Nov 20, 2019)

Punji said:


> All the more reason to dislike politicians!



Only the ones who cater to a particular religious group of voters who push for such legislation.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 21, 2019)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> I choose to misinterpret this as God is a bottom. uwu


I have heard of s guy that like to jizz on icons just because he liked to be cunt and blamed others for it. I hope that's not what you mean. Cause if it is then i have no respect to you.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 21, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> I have heard of s guy that like to jizz on icons just because he liked to be cunt and blamed others for it. I hope that's not what you mean. Cause if it is then i have no respect to you.


Wut?


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 21, 2019)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Wut?


Exactly what you have read.
No I am not joking with it by the way,
Some people are really like that and knowing how rotten this community can be? It's better to make sure.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Nov 21, 2019)

Punji said:


> [...]Only biologically male and female couples can reproduce[...]


Thanks to artificial Insemination even lesbian couples, or just a women without any partner at all, can reproduce.
Yes, of course there is a sperm donor needed. But since he can and usually does remain anonymous, neither sex, nor love, nor a partner is needed nowadays.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Nov 21, 2019)

Agnostic Theist. I believe there's some kind of creator of the universe (multiverse?) out there, and all living creatures have a soul/spirit and an afterlife and I believe in ghosts. I also fully acknowledge that while I believe these things, I have no actual proof beyond anecdotal evidence. As much as this sounds like an oxymoron, I'm an open minded skeptic. I feel the truth is we don't really know, but I do believe there's something out there while acknowledging I could be wrong. However, personally I'd rather believe in something than not, I don't care if it makes me sound delusional because if I don't I become horribly depressed and think life has no meaning. I still try to be logical about things and look to Science for explanations. While I respect Nihilism and see where they come from, I have no desire to be a Nihilist. I also can't wrap my head around Humanism, but again if that's what you believe, more power to you but it's not for me.
I do believe in respecting people's beliefs. I know what it's like to be a Christian and extremely religious, and while I can understand where they come from,  I can't always agree with everything the Bible says. I can't bring myself to be an Atheist though I will respect their beliefs as long as they respect mine and don't try to convince me I'm wrong. I had to learn the hard way it's OK to "agree to disagree" because otherwise some pretty harsh arguments can be stirred up. If you're Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Satanist, I don't care, I respect your opinion the only thing I care about is if you're a good person and respect my beliefs in return.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Nov 21, 2019)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Thanks to artificial Insemination even lesbian couples, or just a women without any partner at all, can reproduce.
> Yes, of course there is a sperm donor needed. But since he can and usually does remain anonymous, neither sex, nor love, nor a partner is needed nowadays.



Not to mention research is being done to allow same sex couples the ability to have offspring that shares the DNA of both parents. The same research will help hetero couples  unable to conceive to have kids as well. But in the mean time, same sex couples should be able to adopt the thousands of unwanted children who are born. Personally I'm not having kids of my own, as a Teacher I'll be happy to pass on my knowledge instead.


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 21, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> I'm reminded of the high frequency with which Christians seek to legislate their beliefs in the US.


This sounds like fearmongering, honestly. I hear people say Christians are trying to take political control of America all the time. I personally have no desire to force my ideas and beliefs on you or others.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 21, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> I have heard of s guy that like to jizz on icons just because he liked to be cunt and blamed others for it. I hope that's not what you mean. Cause if it is then i have no respect to you.


No, wtf. It was just a joke, taking the phrase "God is at the bottom" out of context to imply that if he were in a sexual relationship he'd be the bottom in sex.


Infrarednexus said:


> This sounds like fearmongering, honestly. I hear people say Christians are trying to take political control of America all the time, including on these forums. I personally have no desire to force my ideas and beliefs on you or others.


I don't believe you.
I've heard of the Party Parrots, and their KGP.


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 21, 2019)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> I don't believe you.
> I've heard of the Party Parrots, and their KGP.


Fake news and anti-parrot propaganda. I expected better from you Slyth.


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## Marius Merganser (Nov 21, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> This sounds like fearmongering, honestly. I hear people say Christians are trying to take control of America a lot. I personally have no desire to force my ideas and beliefs on you or others.



It's certainly not all Christians.  

Today, the Republican party is basically supported by Evangelical, fundamentalist, Dominionist, and very conservative Christians who are quite open about their desire to legislate their beliefs.  I've lost count of how many times I've been told that I'm not only wrong, but necessarily evil and deserve to be punished for eternity for not being a Christian.  So when these same people are pushing to turn their personally held religious beliefs into public policy, I think it's not unreasonable for me to be concerned.

I'm glad you don't want to impose and I apologize if I implied that you did, but there are a lot of your fellow Christians who do. The key is that they use the same source material as you.


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## Infrarednexus (Nov 21, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> It's certainly not all Christians.
> 
> Today, the Republican party is basically supported by Evangelical, fundamentalist, Dominionist, and very conservative Christians who are quite open about their desire to legislate their beliefs.  I've lost count of how many times I've been told that I'm not only wrong, but necessarily evil and deserve to be punished for eternity for not being a Christian.  So when these same people are pushing to turn their personally held religious beliefs into public policy, I think it's not unreasonable for me to be concerned.
> 
> I'm glad you don't want to impose and I apologize if I implied that you did, but there are a lot of your fellow Christians who do. The key is that they use the same source material as you.


You make a fair point. I respect that.

But, any Christian who wants to control other peoples lives and enforce their beliefs on them is not someone I want to consider a "fellow Christian"

Sorry if I came off as rude. I just don't want people thinking I myself have some sort of religious agenda.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 21, 2019)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> No, wtf. It was just a joke, taking the phrase "God is at the bottom" out of context to imply that if he were in a sexual relationship he'd be the bottom in sex.
> 
> I don't believe you.
> I've heard of the Party Parrots, and their KGP.


Pardon me if I sounded rude of course, that was not my intention. The reason why I reacted like that was that whenever I read comments, even innocent like that, they were posted by really some derailed personas and I can get alerted (?)
However, to make things even more twisted, those people had no sexual intentions while doing so. The pure reason, was to simply insult. To desecrate themselves on the religion which (if they truly don't care about it) should not bother them.
So yes, excuse me for my, let's call it paranoia.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 21, 2019)

Marius Merganser said:


> It's certainly not all Christians.
> 
> Today, the Republican party is basically supported by Evangelical, fundamentalist, Dominionist, and very conservative Christians who are quite open about their desire to legislate their beliefs.  I've lost count of how many times I've been told that I'm not only wrong, but necessarily evil and deserve to be punished for eternity for not being a Christian.  So when these same people are pushing to turn their personally held religious beliefs into public policy, I think it's not unreasonable for me to be concerned.
> 
> I'm glad you don't want to impose and I apologize if I implied that you did, but there are a lot of your fellow Christians who do. The key is that they use the same source material as you.


It's like people forget that less than a decade ago gay people weren't able to get married because of Christians pushing their views into politics.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Nov 21, 2019)

I'm starting to lose my faith in Abrahamic religions, I still believe in the strong possibility of spirits and unseen energies, and a possible afterlife but I don't believe in a merciful God. You don't need people to suffer so they can seek you, you don't need to make multiple books with the 10 commandments only to have the rest of the stories in them contradict those commandments, and it certainly doesn't make sense that something outside of matter can create matter, so everything that was created in this universe, to me, was created in this universe. I cannot comprehend mere existence because it doesn't make sense, and I cannot explain what was before this universe but the the same goes with the existence of an eternal God. Obviously if God exists, something created God as well, and it keeps going back, so why can't people accept the theory that there may be no eternal God, and why only a specific God and not an alien, or something else made up with such powers? Nobody can even explain what God is, except say "God is God", or what's told in a story, and even the stories told can't explain what God is. I don't deny the existence of a God, but I also don't turn down other theories either. We know that natural phenomena works independently of God, prayers don't get answered, so why do people keep insisting that what they believe is true when the books are either lying about the traits of God, or God isn't who it claims to be? What people claim about God sure sounds nice, but it doesn't add up or seem to be the case, both from a scientific point of view, and mere experience on this planet. Also, there's literally no justification for inconveniences in God's creation.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Nov 22, 2019)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> I'm starting to lose my faith in Abrahamic religions, I still believe in the strong possibility of spirits and unseen energies, and a possible afterlife but I don't believe in a merciful God. You don't need people to suffer so they can seek you, you don't need to make multiple books with the 10 commandments only to have the rest of the stories in them contradict those commandments, and it certainly doesn't make sense that something outside of matter can create matter, so everything that was created in this universe, to me, was created in this universe. I cannot comprehend mere existence because it doesn't make sense, and I cannot explain what was before this universe but the the same goes with the existence of an eternal God. Obviously if God exists, something created God as well, and it keeps going back, so why can't people accept the theory that there may be no eternal God, and why only a specific God and not an alien, or something else made up with such powers? Nobody can even explain what God is, except say "God is God", or what's told in a story, and even the stories told can't explain what God is. I don't deny the existence of a God, but I also don't turn down other theories either. We know that natural phenomena works independently of God, prayers don't get answered, so why do people keep insisting that what they believe is true when the books are either lying about the traits of God, or God isn't who it claims to be? What people claim about God sure sounds nice, but it doesn't add up or seem to be the case, both from a scientific point of view, and mere experience on this planet. Also, there's literally no justification for inconveniences in God's creation.



I can definitely see your point, especially when it comes to the Bible. I don't think a "perfect" God exists, and if anything if there is a God whatever it is, is kind of apathetic or a jerk. But I do believe in some kind of creator though, I have a hard time believing molecules just decided to come together and form DNA. Of course the creator could be open to interpretation, it could be some kind of sentient energy or some kind and doesn't have to be limited to the Biblical God, but I do like to keep my personal theory of the creator somewhat flexible. So you could call him/her/it God, Satan, The Great Spirit, Brahman or whatever or even argue it's multiple Gods or spirits. It's even possible that all living things can add up to one entity that broke itself into smaller entities that became mortal beings. Who knows? 
Whatever you believe though, the Universe or Multiverse had to have a beginning at some point right? 
I've sort of been there myself, used to be a devout Christian but I couldn't bring myself to be an atheist either.


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## CaptainCool (Nov 22, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> I have a hard time believing molecules just decided to come together and form DNA.


Why though? I think it makes perfect sense.
All necessary building blocks were present. It just took a very long time.

To me it makes much more sense that there was a natural process at work rather than some sort of sentient creator that just willed everything into existence.

Also, your approach still doesn't explain the origin of life even if there were some sort of creator. Because now you have to explain where the _creator_ came from.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Nov 22, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> I can definitely see your point, especially when it comes to the Bible. I don't think a "perfect" God exists, and if anything if there is a God whatever it is, is kind of apathetic or a jerk. But I do believe in some kind of creator though, I have a hard time believing molecules just decided to come together and form DNA. Of course the creator could be open to interpretation, it could be some kind of sentient energy or some kind and doesn't have to be limited to the Biblical God, but I do like to keep my personal theory of the creator somewhat flexible. So you could call him/her/it God, Satan, The Great Spirit, Brahman or whatever or even argue it's multiple Gods or spirits. It's even possible that all living things can add up to one entity that broke itself into smaller entities that became mortal beings. Who knows?
> Whatever you believe though, the Universe or Multiverse had to have a beginning at some point right?
> I've sort of been there myself, used to be a devout Christian but I couldn't bring myself to be an atheist either.


 I don't think I can bring myself to atheism either, I just think the world is more than what a book tells them. I believe science is evolving so much and fast too, that it will eventually explain things we wish we could know right now.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Nov 23, 2019)

CaptainCool said:


> Why though? I think it makes perfect sense.
> All necessary building blocks were present. It just took a very long time.
> 
> To me it makes much more sense that there was a natural process at work rather than some sort of sentient creator that just willed everything into existence.
> ...



Why? It's like saying I threw a bunch of legos in a pile and they neatly assemble themselves just because it took a long time to do so. That doesn't happen. You still have to have a person, an entity of some kind, put the legos together. Of course I'm speaking metaphorically, the legos are like the molecules. You can apply this to anything, car and train parts, a cool gundam or zoids model. Someone still has to put it together. Even if we say, had the wind pick them up and put them together, the mathematical probability of this would be small at best.

To me it makes far more sense for a sentient creator or some kind of spiritual force to put things together, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Just because we have to explain where the creator came from, doesn't mean he/she/it doesn't exist. Even if we go so far as to say, put everything in a controlled environment, we still created the controlled environment. There was still an outside force. 

Plus, I kind of think if things just came together by themselves...it would make life seem far more dull and meaningless. That could very well be the case, and I fully acknowledge it. But in my mind, it makes no sense whatsoever. I just think it makes more logical sense that a creator put things together. If you disagree, that's fine.  You have a different opinion, that's ok, all I ask is respect mine in return. 



MetalWolfBruh said:


> I don't think I can bring myself to atheism either, I just think the world is more than what a book tells them. I believe science is evolving so much and fast too, that it will eventually explain things we wish we could know right now.



That much I can agree with. It might explain everything at some point, or it might just lead to more questions.

I will admit though that Evolution itself is something that I had to grudgingly accept. I think the idea of being lovingly created is far more beautiful than stuff just being thrown together and having environmental conditions change it over time. The only solace I take in evolution is the fact that we share DNA with cats and have a common ancestor with them somewhere down the road. It's 90%, but it's there. Part of that could be the fact that I'm autistic, so change doesn't appeal to me to begin with. I've accepted it, I know it's been proven with scientific evidence so there's no need to point it out to me and say "this is how it happens" because people have done that. But accepting it, and liking it, are two different things. Ironically enough, I love biology, I just hate evolution.


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## CaptainCool (Nov 23, 2019)

Reality doen't really care about what you can or can't understand or what you think does or doesn't make sense :I
Yes. Life IS dull and meaningless. We just gotta deal with that and make it better ourselves.

And no. I don't respect your opinion on this matter. Why would I respect something that, to me, is utter nonsense and just one giant logical fallacy?


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Nov 23, 2019)

CaptainCool said:


> Reality doen't really care about what you can or can't understand or what you think does or doesn't make sense :I
> Yes. Life IS dull and meaningless. We just gotta deal with that and make it better ourselves.
> 
> And no. I don't respect your opinion on this matter. Why would I respect something that, to me, is utter nonsense and just one giant logical fallacy?



Wow. That's too bad. I have no desire to argue about this though. If you want to believe life is dull, meaningless and think my beliefs are nonsense, then so be it. I gave you my reasoning for why I believe, so we'll leave it at that. I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, and if your goal is to somehow convert me to atheism/nihilism or what have you, then I'm afraid this discussion is over. I tried being respectful, but I'd rather not turn what should be a friendly discussion into a heated argument.


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## CaptainCool (Nov 23, 2019)

MauEvigEternalCat said:


> Wow. That's too bad. I have no desire to argue about this though. If you want to believe life is dull, meaningless and think my beliefs are nonsense, then so be it. I gave you my reasoning for why I believe, so we'll leave it at that. I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, and if your goal is to somehow convert me to atheism/nihilism or what have you, then I'm afraid this discussion is over. I tried being respectful, but I'd rather not turn what should be a friendly discussion into a heated argument.



I think you missed something I said. Yes, I said life is meaningless and I do mean that. However, I think we should give life meaning ourselves.
To me it is much better to look for my own "purpose in life" rather than just accepting a given purpose.

My whole worldview is entirely based on repeatable evidence. I want to know the truth, not something that just might be true. That simply isn't good enough for me.
Can we fully explain where life came from? No. And that is fine because there are very smart people out there who do try to figure that out. Through logic and reason. Which, if you want to figure out the truth, is the only way to go about this.


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Nov 23, 2019)

CaptainCool said:


> I think you missed something I said. Yes, I said life is meaningless and I do mean that. However, I think we should give life meaning ourselves.
> To me it is much better to look for my own "purpose in life" rather than just accepting a given purpose.
> 
> My whole worldview is entirely based on repeatable evidence. I want to know the truth, not something that just might be true. That simply isn't good enough for me.
> Can we fully explain where life came from? No. And that is fine because there are very smart people out there who do try to figure that out. Through logic and reason. Which, if you want to figure out the truth, is the only way to go about this.



All you've mentioned are opinions based on your perspective and interpretation of the evidence. If you have a different opinion it's alright, but not respecting mine just because it's different from your own is what I find upsetting here, not the fact that you believe life is meaningless. I'm willing to agree to disagree and respect other people's opinions even if I don't agree with them. Since you can't extend the same courtesy to me, then I can't respect your opinion either.

You assert that you want to know the truth, yet already claim to know what the truth is. You completely contradicted yourself. Now, that's my criticism of your argument in a nut shell. I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong, and if you want to argue I'm wrong you're wasting your time because I already admit that I could be wrong which is hard enough for me being autistic. I am, at the very least being intellectually honest by admitting I could be wrong and that I don't know one way or the other. I don't claim that God exists or a creator exists, I simply believe based on my world view and the evidence that lays before me. Once again, evidence is presented, it's all about how you interpret it. If you want to interpret that things came together on their own, go for it. I'm not stopping you. I will say that confirmation bias can go both ways, which is why I think it's impossible to know one way or the other.

I've heard all the atheist arguments before, and none of them have persuaded me to be an atheist. Asserting that only atheists can be logical and use reason in their arguments, is simply arrogant. So please, if you can't respect my opinion then this discussion is over. That's all I have to say about it. If you still can't respect a different opinion, then I'll politely bow out of this thread. Have a good day.


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## Peach's (Nov 23, 2019)

I am in the position now where I don't believe that god or the supernatural is needed to explain the material world, however I am open to the spiritual still existing. I can feel it in my bones when the moon is full and a flock of birds flies over my head, the spiritual need not explain the material world, it is beyond it and not bound by its causation.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 24, 2019)

Alright... basing on few responses it might be a good idea to explain what a religion is in the first place. Doesn't matter which one so as simply as I can...

Each time you pray you feel better about yourself, a form of meditation.
Each time you make oath to God, it will stay stronger because you know that you haven't made it to yourself.

Concept of God can be closed in one sentence. Personification of nature. Some find it harder to believe in themselves so they give it a human shape, easier to understand and see form, it's easier to those to completely mess their lives up and keeping morals on their own. It makes it even harder to sort problems out.
Each time you pray "God grant me a bike" it will build up your will to get it, your subconciousness will force the concious mind to do something to get it.

So next time when you ask, is God merciful and should I believe him? Ask yourself is your own mind and will merciful to you?

And you hear it from Catholic/ Mokosh Cultist, to clear things out.


P.S - It is early where I am now and I probably forgot to mention few things. Feel free to point them out of course.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 24, 2019)

Also, kudos to you guys. Every other thread like that before (at least the ones I saw) turned into shitstorm after first sentence and we have managed to stay polite for really long.

Let's keep it this way please.


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## Mailoh (Dec 6, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Each time you pray you feel better about yourself, a form of meditation.
> Each time you make oath to God, it will stay stronger because you know that you haven't made it to yourself.
> 
> Concept of God can be closed in one sentence. Personification of nature. Some find it harder to believe in themselves so they give it a human shape, easier to understand and see form, it's easier to those to completely mess their lives up and keeping morals on their own. It makes it even harder to sort problems out.
> ...



It makes absolute sense. The whole point of these acts is to bind one's self towards goals & uphold one's own morals as the ideal (in other words, instilling a sense of responsibility or stake in something). They in turn give someone a purpose in life, and having a purpose provides the ability to build one's self-confidence.

Without it, it's no wonder why there's so many who just float through life, perpetually in a state of mental anguish. That's not to say there's reasons other than a lack of purpose that cause it, but in retrospect that's the shared trait between people I knew at one time, even myself.

Hell, that time of my life was where I was most vulnerable and lacked faith. Though now it's a lack of patience, but that's a whole different topic that goes into the Millennial generation & the volume of information of the time.


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## Peach's (Dec 7, 2019)

If you are going to break your brain for that religious serotonin, that's fine, whatever, but why Monotheism? Like, there are much more cooler religions.


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## Mailoh (Dec 7, 2019)

Peebes said:


> If you are going to break your brain for that religious serotonin, that's fine, whatever, but why Monotheism? Like, there are much more cooler religions.



Unless you actively enjoy breaking tradition and ruining family ties, and other immediate relationships tied with religion by renouncing one's faith in front of them, then it's not that simple.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 7, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Alright... basing on few responses it might be a good idea to explain what a religion is in the first place. Doesn't matter which one so as simply as I can...
> 
> Each time you pray you feel better about yourself, a form of meditation.
> Each time you make oath to God, it will stay stronger because you know that you haven't made it to yourself.
> ...



It sounds like you view God as a simulated figure inside folks' heads that happens to be useful to them, rather than a real entity?


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## ConorHyena (Dec 7, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> It sounds like you view God as a simulated figure inside folks' heads that happens to be useful to them, rather than a real entity?



but this is exactly what it is - I think HistoricallyIncorrect put it perfectly - God and religion is a very effective coping measure

Being someone who suffers from PTSD, I learned that people with a strong religious belief are less likely to suffer from PTSD after a traumatic episode than people who don't. So it has an effect, however the effect does not come from outside, it's merely psychological, and the psyche is an impressive weapon.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Dec 7, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> It sounds like you view God as a simulated figure inside folks' heads that happens to be useful to them, rather than a real entity?


But then again, isn't a presence of God in all of us?


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## Fallowfox (Dec 7, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> But then again, isn't a presence of God in all of us?



If you mean a supernatural presence, then I suppose not, because I don't believe in a super-nature. 

If you view god as a psychiatric phenomenon, then the answer would be that those beliefs exist in the heads of _some_ people, because people are socialised into their spiritual beliefs rather than being born with them.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Dec 7, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> If you mean a supernatural presence, then I suppose not, because I don't believe in a super-nature.
> 
> If you view god as a psychiatric phenomenon, then the answer would be that those beliefs exist in the heads of _some_ people, because people are socialised into their spiritual beliefs rather than being born with them.


You realize that I am not trying to convert you just explaining religion? It's up to me how I see it and how you see it is up to you. Besides I have also explained the structure of religion in detail (personification of nature) not only Christianity.
And those that are not socialised? Often grow beliefs of their own.

And do me a favor please, do not turn what I say against me okay?


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## Fallowfox (Dec 7, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> You realize that I am not trying to convert you just explaining religion? It's up to me how I see it and how you see it is up to you. Besides I have also explained the structure of religion in detail (personification of nature) not only Christianity.
> And those that are not socialised? Often grow beliefs of their own.
> 
> And do me a favor please, do not turn what I say against me okay?



I think you're interpreting this in an aggressive way; I tried to answer your question question honestly.  S:

I asked you my question because I wanted to know whether you viewed god entirely as a psychosomatic phenomenon, or whether your view was that god is a combination of psychosomatic and supernatural. 
I don't have an axe to grind asking that question, I was just curious because your post could be interpreted as supporting either of these options. 
If you think that it is better left ambiguous, or if you are unsure of the answer to the question yourself, all of those things are fine. 

If we do both view god as entirely psychosomatic, then I suppose some people do invent their own gods- somebody must have to start with. There are still some humans who don't have this complex of beliefs though, so I can't say that it is present in all humans. So that's the most honest answer I can give to your question.


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## Filter (Dec 7, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Concept of God can be closed in one sentence. Personification of nature.



Perhaps... but did we personify nature, or did nature personify us?


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Dec 7, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I think you're interpreting this in an aggressive way; I tried to answer your question question honestly.  S:
> 
> I asked you my question because I wanted to know whether you viewed god entirely as a psychosomatic phenomenon, or whether your view was that god is a combination of psychosomatic and supernatural.
> I don't have an axe to grind asking that question, I was just curious because your post could be interpreted as supporting either of these options.
> ...


Pardon me for that, as I said few times before. Most of the time I was exposed to toxicity on religious topics and I still am little paranoid. I did not meant anything bad.

How do I see God?I believe in higher nature, yet I could not just let Christianity go. Do I see God as psychic phenomenom or supernatural? In this case I would answer both.
I believe that there is something after death. What exactly? No idea.
Do I believe in presence of God in myself? 
This will be left underexplained because I do but not as psychic phenomenom. I can not explain in details how.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 7, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Pardon me for that, as I said few times before. Most of the time I was exposed to toxicity on religious topics and I still am little paranoid. I did not meant anything bad.
> 
> How do I see God?I believe in higher nature, yet I could not just let Christianity go. Do I see God as psychic phenomenom or supernatural? In this case I would answer both.
> I believe that there is something after death. What exactly? No idea.
> ...


Sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable, I'll try to modify my language so that it doesn't give this impression.

If there is a God and they are a _combination_ of psychsomatic and supernatural, then I suppose answering whether they are present in all people is quite difficult.

Perhaps newborn babies contain a _supernatural component_ of God, but do not yet possess a psychosmatic ideation of God- for example.
Or perhaps there are some people who have a psychosomatic set of beliefs that they view as God, but have been _abandoned_ by any supernatural component.

I suppose we could also ask, is the supernatural component present in other animals? Is it present in some more than others? Perhaps it would make sense to regard an orangutan as containing a spark of the divine, even though it doesn't possess the faculties for a psychosomatic ideation of God. 
We could also ask at what point in development a person gets a supernatural spark of God- at conception, when the foetal heart beat starts, when the neural crest closes, when the brain forms?

I guess this is a similar question to asking to what extent language is inherent in humans. To what extent are they born with a pre-packaged understanding of language, is there universal grammar or is it wholly arbitrary between cultures etc.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Dec 7, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable, I'll try to modify my language so that it doesn't give this impression.
> 
> If there is a God and they are a _combination_ of psychsomatic and supernatural, then I suppose answering whether they are present in all people is quite difficult.
> 
> ...


This indeed is a question which has been crossing my mind lately. I have encountered quite few theories and came up with my own.

I doubt anyone could be abondoned by the supernatural if they haven't abonded it itself. I was not always religious, I threw away concept of God at one point yet my life went such way that out of desperation I started to meditate and prey. Since then I see things bit other way. At one point during the meditation I even saw someone which I believe was God (Funny enough he looked like Morgan Freeman >.< )

I have asked few questions but I remember only one one. Why is the evil happening? I have received the answer which went in line like "Because people have free will." 
Since then in my sceptical moments I wonder. How did this answer out of nowhere came to me? Was it just in my head? Or was it really a sign.

Talking about animals? While for centuries Christian religion stated that animals do not have souls, it is never stated that Adam and Eve were homo sapiens. They could as well be early primates and we share many aspects as humans with other creations therefore I believe that animals share it just as we do.

And if dogs after death don't go to heaven then I want to go where they do.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 7, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> This indeed is a question which has been crossing my mind lately. I have encountered quite few theories and came up with my own.
> 
> I doubt anyone could be abondoned by the supernatural if they haven't abonded it itself. I was not always religious, I threw away concept of God at one point yet my life went such way that out of desperation I started to meditate and prey. Since then I see things bit other way. At one point during the meditation I even saw someone which I believe was God (Funny enough he looked like Morgan Freeman >.< )
> 
> ...



I'm not actually sure if I believe in free will- does the cascade of nervous signals inside my head count as a 'free' system or is it just a probabilistic system? 

I suppose also, if there is a God, they may or may not subscribe to concepts of evil or free will- or if they do they might be radically different to the versions that humans typically believe in today.


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## Marcl (Dec 8, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> And if dogs after death don't go to heaven then I want to go where they do.


IIRC, Pope Francis said that the idea that animals doesn't go to Heaven isn't supported, so in short words - dogs go to Heaven in his point of view x3.



Fallowfox said:


> I'm not actually sure if I believe in free will- does the cascade of nervous signals inside my head count as a 'free' system or is it just a probabilistic system?


Interesting about free will - belief in it seems to make people more decisive in facing their issues. Perhaps the sheer belief something in the end depends on you can be empowering.

Even with that, I think there's more than one view on free will. For some it involved everything we do and whatever we did is something we actually wanted (which doesn't, in my view, works with how addictions function). For some it might be that we don't decide out actions, but only our opinions on them, so the free will is just a mean to scrutinise it. And of course views in the middle, where free will is somewhere between the two extremes.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 8, 2019)

Marcl said:


> IIRC, Pope Francis said that the idea that animals doesn't go to Heaven isn't supported, so in short words - dogs go to Heaven in his point of view x3.
> 
> 
> Interesting about free will - belief in it seems to make people more decisive in facing their issues. Perhaps the sheer belief something in the end depends on you can be empowering.
> ...



I think free will makes sense if you use it to mean 'without coercion' in a legal context.
Philosophically I am not sure it means _anything_ though. I kinda feel like it is usually just employed as a bit of a thought-terminating cliché to paper over cracks in philosophical questions like the 'problem of evil'.

I think the problem of evil is itself a strange problem to pose in the first place though; if a God or Gods existed why should we expect them to take moral positions on human behaviour anyway? I there are supernatural creator beings, perhaps they are indifferent to the concept of human evil.
Not even all humans agree on what evil is or if the idea of objective evil is itself valid- and attitudes towards this question vary through time. 

If there were Gods, I'd probably err towards them being indifferent on the subject- because otherwise we end up exploring some really peculiar territory.


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## Peach's (Dec 8, 2019)

Mailoh said:


> Unless you actively enjoy breaking tradition and ruining family ties, and other immediate relationships tied with religion by renouncing one's faith in front of them, then it's not that simple.



The original discussion was from the focus of those without faith.


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## Marcl (Dec 9, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Not even all humans agree on what evil is or if the idea of objective evil is itself valid- and attitudes towards this question vary through time.


While it's true it's not guaranteed to have a universal definition of evil among cultures (or that all regionalised views on evil try to see it as universal), more or less you'll always get the good-evil going back to things that should be done and that should be avoided.

In case of lack of universal morality. In Polish we have a term "Kali's morality", which goes back to a young adult novel _In Desert and Wilderness_, in which Kali was one of the characters. His view on the morality was "if someone steals my goat - it's bad; if I steam someone else's goat - it's good" and is used as an example of hypocritical morality.

Interestingly, in regards to to the interest of gods in human morality - seems to be dependant on the religion. Seems like Abrahamic religions have a view of a divinity that's deeply concerned in quality of human morality. A similar concept is in Zoroastrianism also seems to has this feature.


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