# TF2: Shave that matted Fur & let Sunshine be the antiseptic



## iller (Mar 15, 2009)

(Loooong & Detailed ...skip to end for wrap-it-up solution)

First of all, I'd like to pre-face this by by offering an Olive-Branch to the FurryPound & CC2 Admins:  I know that they're volunteers, and shouldn't be expected to perform miracles. We all appreciate every ounce of effort they contribute so I offer my condolences to them ahead of time for any Drama that exists or might result from this or the current state of things.  Nor am I passing judgment on anyone for outright-cheating.  Some people have called Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens "outright Cheaters" but personally they're still Heroes to me and I'll never consider them actual cheaters like Bonds, Bush, & Paulson are.

Now that I've covered my own scaly ass... It's time to cover everyone else's:

There are "Hacklers" in our midst, _Gentlemurrs_.  There are also FPS gods who walk among us too but this isn't about them.  The point of this post is to prove the first point, which I couldn't get around after I observed a couple of players who I won't name here, but predominately play Scouts, Spies, and most obvious of course: Snipers.   My curiosity wasn't peeked by their abilities to hit anyone and everyone with stunning accuracy... but more by the fact that Strategically and Logistically, they seemed clueless to their surroundings and threats.  Now granted, maybe there's some Idiot Savants out there who can aim a mouse like the legendary Pinball Wizard aims flippers while being complete Aspies to the basics of positioning and threat awareness... but the chances that there would be 3 to 5 of them all making normal appearances on the same Servers is way too astronomical to compute regardless of the "Freak Quotient" in the Furry Fandom.

Upon observing several of these players, I noticed lots of weird things:
-n00b Spies making LEAPING instant side-stabs immediately after the Side-Stab bug was fixed (by the last Patch) even though they couldn't reliably position themselves for back-stabs if their opponent was typically standing still
-Headshots being made without actually mousing-over their heads, but no "Jitters" visible from the Server stream
-Headshots made on Zig-Zagging (read: serpentine travel, not Miss Tiger-Skunk) bunny-hoppers (mid-air).
-Headshots on Crouching players who were BEHIND other players and thus had their heads out of LOS.
-Scouts firing scatter 2-6 ft. off from their targets but still hitting for 100% of "close" cone-damage Calculation
-Not only Scouts, but Snipers and Spies too: rapidly dodging Sentry missiles while walking, zooming, or even crouching.
-Rapid-Fire scout Pistols that never missed.
-Instant Shooting at enemy Sticky-Bombs with 100% accuracy from long range even when they posed no immediate threat
-Random Speed-Ups, "smoothed" robotic lateral mouse movement, and weird packet lag.  IoW: "Crack Twitch"
-Uncharacteristic under-performance and sluggish playing when they know they're being observed.

All this bizarre behavior got me to thinking that there is a new method to Aimbotting where in an Application could hypothetically display all the hit-detection boxes of opponents, behind walls no less, *and then for just a split millisecond* automatically "jitter" the player's trajectory to the critical position needed to inflict maximum damage as long as it's aimed *Near* the hit Boxes (depending on what class they were playing).  And as soon as the attack is made, the hacked "Loss" packet is covered over by reverting the player's aim to it's last "legitimate" coordinate without it being carried over to any observer's client.  This theory was further confirmed to me when I noticed a pattern of natural-Lag induced misses that any true FPS god would have simply ignored with their "Lag Shooting" skills.


Here's the technical & psychological part:  Hacklers don't hack the game code, they hack the Packets in between which is a major gray-area for the most part and has been around "legitimately" ever since some guy in Diablo1 figured out how to dupe gear by dropping a potion & armor at the same time while forcing lag spikes into the server...  It still requires lots of skill but gives a major advantages that can and does make other players rage-quit like naturally-immature man-children often do.  And this is Furry Fandom so let's be honest with ourselves:  The only fandom more immature and self-loathing is probably hiding in some cushion-fort somewhere worshiping Teletubbies and Captain Planet.  Likewise: This also makes Furry servers the best possible targets for such Shenanigans b/c all the suspicions and pissing & moaning can be blamed on the same "Fursecution Complex" that always gets mined for the LoLCow-GOLD that it's notorious for.

WHAT PROOF do I have that these shenanigans can and have existed?   Where to start:
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...TF2+undetectable+aim&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://royalhack.com/forum/25007-post1.html
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=tf2+aimbot
...Or just do your own damned google search b/c this gray area is GRAY but Fertile...



IN CONCLUSION:  I'm not asking for any action by the Admins other than possibly some self Education so they know what else to look for.  In all honestly, This is merely a humble proposition to call a Spade a Spade, *and* a call for less "Reactionary Drama" from BOTH SIDES when Packet Loss Hackers are finger-pointed at.  IE:  We should be able to call someone a Hackler without ourselves being labeled a Whiner and maybe even without them becoming Pariahs either.  We can treat it like a Lifestyle choice instead of a sickness ...rationale that furries should be well accustomed to by now, _HAR HAR_... and simply look for other ways of dealing with them.    FOR INSTANCE:  Add a custom Vote script that allows a 33% voting minority to move the Hackler to the "Losing" team and keep him there until momentum shifts strongly enough back towards something resembling "balanced" teams.  Or if that's too complex, just lower the number of Votes required for a Scramble-Team Vote(stt) and tell players to use it SPARINGLY, IE: only in cases of Hacklers.


PS:  Feel free to tell me this is a good idea in-game, or call me a bitchnigga, I accept all Feedback with the same grains of salt.  Just don't start an argument in-game b/c Chat-Rage is unacceptable in an environment suited only-to hyperactive Fun and nothing else.


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## Furlop (Mar 15, 2009)

As a once-admin of Cc2's, I can tell you that the vast majority of people screaming hacker are wrong and usually don't understand the game and why they got killed.

So to sum up this thread...

"waaahhhhhh"


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## kamunt (Mar 16, 2009)

I must apologize, but I really have no idea what you're talking about here, iller. I can tell that you put a lot of effort into your post, but what specifically is the point to it? Yeah, there's hackers out there. So? That's what we have admins for. Just the other day on the Cc2 servers, there was a guy who played Soldier and Heavy most of the time who had a crit hack, speed hack AND aim-bot on all at the same time. So he would literally just be zipping across the map and shooting critical rockets at nothing in particular (since an aim-botting Soldier is so effective, as we all know). You know what I did? I messaged Cc2iscool himself on Steam concerning the issue and he and SakeFox took care of it. We have admins and mods for this very reason, so that if someone IS playing with malicious intent, they can take care of them. "Votekick" and "Voteban" have been considered, but there's the possibility for too much drama with stupid functions like those. Not to mention in some iterations of these plug-ins, a simple press of 1 or 2 makes your vote--and in the heat of battle, do you really have time to be paying attention to whether or not you want to kick a player that someone else doesn't like? I complain. I bitch. I whine. *A lot.* And Furlop can attest to that. But I never accuse someone of hacking. Because really, I'm not very good at this game. <.< I play Engineer, Medic and Spy most of the time, the former two classes nearly impossible to NOT be competent at. There are players far, far better than me that play this game. It's extremely frustrating when they play killing fields all over my ass, but that doesn't mean they hack. It means that I have to find the chink in their armor so that I may hopefully exact revenge upon them. In other words, it means I have to *get better at playing the game*.

The TFP/Cc2 feud is over, I'd like to think. Anybody who seriously has a problem with the other server has just learned to stick a cork in it, as far as I can tell. Because nobody cares. All it comes down to really is preference. Don't try and dig up the past, and then rape its corpse, as well. Because I'm pretty sure that's a crime in these parts. :wink:


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## iller (Mar 16, 2009)

> As a once-admin of Cc2's blah blah blah...


So you're saying you DO understand every bit of the game and can explain or Refute every Observation I listed and show how they have no connection whatsoever to the WORKING Overlay programs I linked to?  

If so plz do!

...I'm waiting.

If not then your response *is* summed up as 'U suck, Durp a Durp durp durp!'


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## kamunt (Mar 16, 2009)

Alright, since you've made it clear that you are definitely a whiner--moreso than myself, if possible--*shut up*. I did say that Spy is one of my top three classes. And indeed it is. I myself have been accused of hacking. Running through and backstabbing half of the opposing team pisses people off. But there's a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between being EXCELLENT and HACKING. What I failed to mention about the crit-/speed-hacking player from the other day was that he had the second-lowest score on his team. And he was hacking. Now, why, pray tell, did nobody accuse the players up at the top of the board of hacking? Riddle me this.


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## iller (Mar 16, 2009)

Thank you for a real reply...



kamunt said:


> I can tell that you put a lot of effort into your post, but what specifically is the point to it? Yeah, there's hackers out there. So? That's what we have admins for.


...not if the Admins don't know what to look for.  Masking the Hack's presence is now the biggest portion of code in any Hack app.  Just like the Cashcow that is/was "the Clear" in Pro Sports (to keep borrowing BB analogies)




> It's extremely frustrating when they play killing fields all over my ass, but that doesn't mean they hack. It means that I have to find the chink in their armor so that I may hopefully exact revenge upon them. In other words, it means I have to *get better at playing the game*.


You seem to have me confused with a person who gets upset simply by being killed in a Video game and that's not fair at all when my post is clearly very detailed about spectating only.  None of the people I've Obsv'd were those I had a grudge against.  Infact the only people I tend to have a Grudge against are those clearly-great Legit players who only join winning teams... they should be embracing challenge instead of stacking the Teams like they usually do.   Trust me, I've been PvP'ing much longer(Kali) than the Teenagers and 20-somethings here, I'm ambivalent to Pwnage.




> The TFP/Cc2 feud is over, I'd like to think. Anybody who seriously has a problem with the other server has just learned to stick a cork in it, as far as I can tell. Because nobody cares. All it comes down to really is preference. Don't try and dig up the past, and then rape its corpse, as well. Because I'm pretty sure that's a crime in these parts. :wink:


And now I have absolutely no idea what *you're* talking about... I don't pay attention to most Drama so I must have missed it. _...apologies but_ I am a SOLUTIONS oriented type of person


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## iller (Mar 16, 2009)

kamunt said:


> Alright, since you've made it clear that you are definitely a whiner--moreso than myself, if possible--*shut up*. I did say that Spy is one of my top three classes. And indeed it is. I myself have been accused of hacking. Running through and backstabbing half of the opposing team pisses people off. But there's a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between being EXCELLENT and HACKING.


Now you seem to be taking issue with a Post that I did not direct at you.  Plz save the STFU-talk for in-game, we have the proper format to discuss things like adults here.



> What I failed to mention about the crit-/speed-hacking player from the other day was that he had the second-lowest score on his team. And he was hacking. Now, why, pray tell, did nobody accuse the players up at the top of the board of hacking? Riddle me this.


Thank you for proving my point:  IE: you're typically only going to see total n00bs get caught b/c they're the only ones who make it REALLY REALLY obvious.  As a spy player, You can relate to the comical difference and the consequences


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## Verin Asper (Mar 16, 2009)

...hackers...I for one dont give a damn about hackers on FPS games specially TF2.
and for using Gentlmurrs...I cant take you seriously...sorry


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## iller (Mar 16, 2009)

It was used tongue-in-cheek ...I'll italisize it just for you then you can write a serious reply.  Deal?


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## Furlop (Mar 16, 2009)

iller said:


> Upon observing several of these players, I noticed lots of weird things:
> -n00b Spies making LEAPING instant side-stabs immediately after the Side-Stab bug was fixed (by the last Patch) even though they couldn't reliably position themselves for back-stabs if their opponent was typically standing still
> *So you're saying there's a hack that gives people a backstab every time? Sweet, never seen that one before.*
> -Headshots being made without actually mousing-over their heads, but no "Jitters" visible from the Server stream
> ...





iller said:


> So you're saying you DO understand every bit of the game and can explain or Refute every Observation I listed and show how they have no connection whatsoever to the WORKING Overlay programs I linked to?



Most of your observations are due to lag. It's what happens when you get sniped and it looks like it came from behind the wall. There's no 'shoot through walls' hack. There's no hack to make you automatically dodge bullets. Some of your claims I find hard to believe and considering you haven't provided any proof of them and I've never seen them, I'm forced to conclude that yes, you might not know what's going on.

Two of your links don't work anymore. There's no videos there. I'm not sure why you even linked them. Your youtube link just shows a bunch of aim hacks which are hilariously detactable and result in an instant, easy ban. Any kind of twitching like in the videos and locking on to targets is obvious, even to someone not observing. So if your point was that hacks exist in a first person shooter.. well, welcome to 1995?

IM an admin, ask them to watch the person.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm sorry for Metagaming


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## iller (Mar 16, 2009)

Furlop said:


> IM an admin, ask them to watch the person.


Thanks but I'm not interested in getting them banned, or much more likely being told "I can't see it" by an Admin.  Of course they can't see it, the packets are being manip'd.  As I concluded at the bottom of the OP, I'd just like to *discuss possible solutions* that would conveniently minimize their contributions towards Total shut-outs instead of rewarding them for using "enhanced tools".


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## Furlop (Mar 16, 2009)

iller said:


> Thanks but I'm not interested in getting them banned, or much more likely being told "I can't see it" by an Admin.  Of course they can't see it, the packets are being manip'd.  As I concluded at the bottom of the OP, I'd just like to *discuss possible solutions* that would conveniently minimize their contributions towards Total shut-outs instead of rewarding them for using "enhanced tools".



I had no idea that banning them was rewarding them for hacking. But what you're suggesting in your OP is swapping the hacker to the losing team until the hacker makes them start winning.. Gee, that's almost cruel and unusual.

I've only seen one implementation of punishing hackers without banning them, and it's a youtube video of a hacker who has gravity enabled to a million, so falling off a small step would cause him to die. And taking any damage would cause him to die instantly as well. It's funny at first, but it's just easier to ban them and let other players get on with the game.


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

Yeah I agree with Furlop, it's easier to simply ban them.

But I agree with the OP, hackers are a large issue and we simply can't trust VAC2. Though hacking is rare, I've seen it at least five times in TF2 on TFP servers, I don't play on Cc2's servers much anymore simply because my friends don't, and I get higher pings there.
I'd wish TFP servers would get a bit better, I notice lag there often, even with >100 ping, sometimes it's my side though too.

Lag is a larger issue to me than Hacking.


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## kamunt (Mar 16, 2009)

Not to mention shoddy programming, i.e. facestabs which still haven't been totally fixed. I love watching somebody rush at me from the front and backstabbing me from the front. EDIT:


Furlop said:


> I've only seen one implementation of punishing hackers without banning them, and it's a youtube video of a hacker who has gravity enabled to a million, so falling off a small step would cause him to die. And taking any damage would cause him to die instantly as well. It's funny at first, but it's just easier to ban them and let other players get on with the game.



That sounds amazingly awesome and I want to see this video now. EDIT 2: Found it. Holy shit, amazing win.


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

Facestab was fixed in the scout patch.


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## kamunt (Mar 16, 2009)

Supposedly. But then they restored the Spy's old backstab radius of 180-degrees.


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

But that only allows side stabs.
Facestab is still unable to be done, a legit one not including lag ones. You can never, ever remove lag ones.


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## kamunt (Mar 16, 2009)

Does a lag one count as somebody rushing at my face and backstabbing me in my face? :/


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

Well it's not possible currently, so we have to assume it's lag.


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## kamunt (Mar 16, 2009)

"Fuckin' lag."


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## Rayne (Mar 16, 2009)

kamunt said:


> "Fuckin' lag."



Pretty much.



> In a nutshell, when a high-latency (high-ping) player attacks, the server temporarily "rewinds" its copy of the action in order to compensate for their lag. For example, the enemy Sniper shoots when he sees your head, at that moment you and most other players may believe you successfully ran behind a wall. When the server receives the fire message from the Sniper, it "rewinds", finds out you ought to have been hit, and then deals damage, leading to the appearance of being "killed through a wall".



http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Lag_compensation



> Let's say a player shoots at a target at client time 10.5. The firing information is packed into a user command and sent to the server. While the packet is on its way through the network, the server continues to simulate the world, and the target might have moved to a different position. The user command arrives at server time 10.6 and the server wouldn't detect the hit, even though the player has aimed exactly at the target. This error is corrected by the server-side lag compensation (sv_unlag 1)
> 
> The lag compensation system keeps a history of all recent player positions for a time span of about one second (can be changed with sv_maxunlag). If a user command is executed, the server estimates at what time the command was created. This command execution time is calculated as followed:
> 
> ...



http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking#Lag_compensation


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## Verin Asper (Mar 16, 2009)

...wait...didnt the OP said they were Spectating these events thus


			
				TF2Wiki said:
			
		

> Spectators do not have lag-compensation. If you are spectating someone in first person, you are not seeing exactly what they are seeing. This is especially noticable with high-latency snipers, where you should expect to see unusual shots that may appear to miss or jerk about from your perspective.


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## Rayne (Mar 16, 2009)

Desume Crysis Kaiser said:


> ...wait...didnt the OP said they were Spectating these events thus



That too.


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## TehSean (Mar 16, 2009)

The hit detection works basically as such. This is an extremely basic explanation. If you and the shooter are lagging, especially if the person being shot is lagging, they are not transmitting their movement inputs to the server as quickly as someone who is not lagging, so it may appear from your point of view that you are behind cover while attempting to consciously dodge after being exposed, but because that data will arrive so much later than the shot the person took, you'll get hit "behind a wall"

So, it's a matter of point of view, and the fraction of a second it takes for the server to decide how to correct and synchronize all the data it received. The more you lag, the more you'll have to think ahead. Also. Don't cry hacker. For a good sniper, jumping in mid air reveals where you're going to land because of the poor air control.

The movement speed in TF2 is so low that it's often easy to score hits reliably anyway.


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## iller (Mar 16, 2009)

Furlop said:


> I had no idea that banning them was rewarding them for hacking.


I used to Troll BNET just to get banned... The reward was in the fact that they could never ban ya completely... just the fake IP or cloned serialz ya used so the "reward" was Victory through attrition.



> But what you're suggesting in your OP is swapping the hacker to the losing team until the hacker makes them start winning.. Gee, that's almost cruel and unusual.


Not really, all you're doing is forcing the cheater to cheat himself.  If the rest of the players on either team are using superior tactics and teamwork, They'll often overcome whatever advantages the cheater can keep "under the radar".



Desume Crysis Kaiser said:


> ...wait...didnt the OP said they were Spectating these events thus ...{insert Block Quote about Spectator Lag}...


That's a good theory, but keep in mind that said offender is *benefiting* from that appearance of "real" Lag.  It's also the only means most nominated admins have to check for shenanigans so it's going to trick their eyes to.  Case in point, atleast 3 of us watched a certain notorious scout/sniper player use a speed + aim hack before an admin showed up.  We reported but the admin who won't be named b/c he's a favorite artist too, never saw it b/c the offender knew he was being watched by an admin, and thus didn't toggle on the "speed key" and also took longer to line up his shots so that the aimbotting was undetectable.

The next day, that person was back to playing without hacks and just performing at their normal twitchy but un-godlike level and no further drama was necessary.  If we'd simply been able to keep the "social pressure" on them the night before that, they probably would have reached that concession of legitimacy when it mattered most before a portion of the more newbish players decided to rage-quit. (teams were stacked liek WHOAH too, the hacker was just the the final C-A-K-E on the camel's back).

But this is good too, I feel like we're getting somewhere now


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## Verin Asper (Mar 16, 2009)

iller said:


> I used to Troll BNET just to get banned... The reward was in the fact that they could never ban ya completely... just the fake IP or cloned serialz ya used so the "reward" was Victory through attrition.
> 
> 
> Not really, all you're doing is forcing the cheater to cheat himself.  If the rest of the players on either team are using superior tactics and teamwork, They'll often overcome whatever advantages the cheater can keep "under the radar".
> ...


as a former hacker, I'll tell you this, if an Admin cant see that I'm hacking, you guys putting Social pressure wouldnt matter much, but then again I meta-game in FPS


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## TehSean (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi. Record demos next time. That is all.


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## Furlop (Mar 16, 2009)

iller said:


> I used to Troll BNET just to get banned... The reward was in the fact that they could never ban ya completely... just the fake IP or cloned serialz ya used so the "reward" was Victory through attrition.



Congrats on being a troll? You may feel some sort of victory out of that, but you get banned, the rest of us laugh over it, get on with the game and forget about it a minute later. The only victory is in your head.



> Not really, all you're doing is forcing the cheater to cheat himself.  If the rest of the players on either team are using superior tactics and teamwork, They'll often overcome whatever advantages the cheater can keep "under the radar".



Alert me when you find "superior tactics and teamwork" in a furry server where it's hard enough getting someone to go medic. And yes really, that is what you said.



> *Add a custom Vote script that allows a 33% voting minority to move the Hackler to the "Losing" team and keep him there until momentum shifts strongly enough back towards something resembling "balanced" teams*





> Case in point, atleast 3 of us watched a certain notorious scout/sniper player use a speed + aim hack before an admin showed up.  We reported but the admin who won't be named b/c he's a favorite artist too, never saw it b/c the offender knew he was being watched by an admin, and thus didn't toggle on the "speed key" and also took longer to line up his shots so that the aimbotting was undetectable.



It's called a demo. Record them. Send it to the admin. Problem solved.

edit: Shakefist @ TehSean


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## Kesteh (Mar 17, 2009)

I quote someone from a past server



> "Waah waah waah" and no demo is all that I see--which is nothing. So, what are you still doing here?


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## iller (Mar 17, 2009)

Demo only picks up what my client Receives, not what is actually happening between their Client, the packets, and the Server.  And as I said, I'm not here to get anyone banned.  But the more you guys cling to this idea that banning is the only solution, the more flagrant their cheating will become.  It's an outdated solution to acts that are getting stealthier and stealthier and you're all condoning the hacking when you speak in favor of absolutes.

More information is needed on this topic, not "Ban or STFU" responses.  Thank you.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 17, 2009)

iller said:


> Demo only picks up what my client Receives, not what is actually happening between their Client, the packets, and the Server.  And as I said, I'm not here to get anyone banned.  But the more you guys cling to this idea that banning is the only solution, the more flagrant their cheating will become.  It's an outdated solution to acts that are getting stealthier and stealthier and you're all condoning the hacking when you speak in favor of absolutes.
> 
> More information is needed on this topic, not "Ban or STFU" responses.  Thank you.


sorry but Banning is the best solution, while other solutions are a just a whack on the back of the hands and mild annoyances for Hackers For in the end. Doing a substitution, the hackers arent gonna change, I sure as hell gonna continue to hack if you guys force me from the winning team to the losing one


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## TehSean (Mar 18, 2009)

The larger the gap in skill between two players, the more likely the loser is going to believe the winner is cheating. :^)


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## Starwind87 (Mar 18, 2009)

Well, it's good to see that Kamunt isn't crying about all the times I set him on fire. Filthy spy.


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## Zero_Point (Apr 7, 2009)

kamunt said:


> Just the other day on the Cc2 servers, there was a guy who played Soldier and Heavy most of the time who had a crit hack, speed hack AND aim-bot on all at the same time. So he would literally just be zipping across the map and shooting critical rockets at nothing in particular (since an aim-botting Soldier is so effective, as we all know).



He had an aim-bot? I didn't know. Yeah, I was there for that (FW| Mr. Magoo), shit was hilarious. Like the guy didn't expect us to notice a Heavy moving at Scout speed or something. :V
But yeah, that's how bad he sucked, I didn't even know he had an aim-bot. I was just telling him to shovel everyone since he was hacking. :V

But as for the twitching/head-shots behind things rant, the twitching is something that even I have managed to do. It's just a thing that happens. I'll be sitting there on my little perch in SniperFort, just keeping a lookout for any tar-MOVEMENT! *bang!* I can't pull it off all the time, it just happens.
Head-shots behind walls: Everyone has had this happen to them by many different people. I've watched a friend of mine get head-shotted when he was in the spawn area on 2Fort. The reason? The Sniper that shot him had like 300+ latency.


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## Tyc_00n (Apr 8, 2009)

Hmmm

I believe this to be a case of CSS players pwning your ass in TF2 and of you playing on servers w/o latency checks.  See, you can't blame ANYTHING in tf2 on lag, since the netcode is flawless.  What you are saying is "lag" is actually latency (aka ping).  See, I know people who can legitamately hit you from "behind a wall" with a sniper, get 100% accuracy in a match and get "side stabs" with a spy.  It's simply called skill.  I have played dozens of hours of TF2 and only seen one hacker, who got VAC banned promptly.  And, considering I'm a hacker myself, those "hacks" are near impossible to make and even if they do, will get banned extremely fast.  Most hacks take months to make and get banned within hours.  99% of so called "hacks" that people complain about are people who are just extremely good at the game.  So either get some conclusive evidence that these people are hacking or stfu and get better at the game.  Oh, and uh, packet hacking in videogames is still just a pipe dream.  It's just not feasable.  They would have to hack the server, in which case they aren't packet hacking, they own the server.  Actually hacking the packets is stuff hackers use to hack banks and websites.  It's extremely complex stuff, and would never be wasted on videogames.  If someone has enough expertise to do it, they would be extremely rich and wouldn't give a damn about TF2.  So, uh, good luck catching them.


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## lilEmber (Apr 9, 2009)

The netcode isn't flawless, what are you smoking?
You can be killed when you're behind walls, and I've killed behind walls; 50% of all facestabs are lag; the hitboxes on the scout aren't even near the model at some points.

There's more lag in TF2 with 100ping than there is in, say COD4 with 50ping. Though again, that also might be the server I'm playing on, but it's still damn laggy. As well source checks your FPS and adjust net for what your FPS is, somebody with 300FPS will be less laggy than somebody with 30FPS; if they're lagging from graphical, you can watch their player model lag around like a bitch when nobody else is lagging, even if they have really low ping. I've seen somebody with 20ping lag more than people with 500ping; flawless my ass.


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## yak (Apr 9, 2009)

Just dropping my two cents here wrt: being called a cheater.

As someone who is relatively skilled in playing CS1.6 I am getting somewhere between 1 to 3 raging people calling me that per hour of gameplay.
Because I know how to shoot through walls hearing the opponents on the other side, automatically keep track of player locations on the map and the battle situation, and have a grasp on basic tactics knowing when and where to appear to cause the biggest damage and stay alive through it.
Those are really simple skills native to most FPS games, but evidently too much for a casual player. 

Oh, and having played a bit of L4D online with 100-200ms ping I know how 'unfair' lag compensation can be.


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## AsherCat (Apr 13, 2009)

Reminds me when I was playing on an orange map, this one guy every time I'd leave my base would head shot me some how instantly. I still think he was using an aimbot, but who knows, could of been that good.


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## lilEmber (Apr 13, 2009)

AsherCat said:


> Reminds me when I was playing on an orange map, this one guy every time I'd leave my base would head shot me some how instantly. I still think he was using an aimbot, but who knows, could of been that good.



I've done some "bullshit" moves myself, every time I call bullshit on them myself.


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