# Article: Girl died after father turned to prayer instead of doctors



## Fat_Deimos (Oct 7, 2009)

Source.

After reading the article, I can now say that this myth has been busted.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Oct 7, 2009)

Lol, by punishing him, they're admiting that praying doesn't do jack.


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

Gotta Love the crazies.


----------



## Dass (Oct 7, 2009)

One of various reasons I think 90% of religion is bull. But I still believe in a god, and will continue to do so until you explain every unexplainable thing in human history.


----------



## Duality Jack (Oct 7, 2009)

Religion the opiate and the venom. Hand in hand.


----------



## Hir (Oct 7, 2009)

Dear God, let my daughter eat sugar again.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Oct 7, 2009)

Dass said:


> One of various reasons I think 90% of religion is bull. But I still believe in a god, and will continue to do so until you explain every unexplainable thing in human history.


 
What you're doing is using the "God of the Gaps" argument.
Why not fill those gaps with unicorns?

Unicorns are _bloody awesome_.


----------



## LizardKing (Oct 7, 2009)

Cases where this has failed: 8,554,724
Cases where this has worked: 0

BUT THIS TIME IT MIGHT WORK


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> What you're doing is using the "God of the Gaps" argument.
> Why not fill those gaps with unicorns?
> 
> Unicorns are _bloody awesome_.


Correction. Unicorns that fart rainbows are awesome.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

She didn't die because of prayer. She died because she had undiagnosed diabetes. I'm sure prayer and good wishes did nothing but help the child. But yes I do think this counts as negligence in a modern western society. Though keep in mind there have been instances where modern medicine lead to death because doctors through cross cultural miscommunication would not listen to older eastern forms of healing.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> I'm sure prayer and good wishes did nothing but help the child.


 
I'm pretty sure she died.


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> I'm pretty sure she died.


Naw dawg; She's being kept alive with an IV of kittens, rainbows and unicorns.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> I'm pretty sure she died.


Regardless of faith or medicine I'm pretty sure we all die. I'm sure her faith helped comfort her passing. Don't forget the girl was 11. She could have made it to a doctor if she wanted.

Before the illness incapacitated her.


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Regardless of faith or medicine I'm pretty sure we all die. I'm sure her faith helped comfort her passing. Don't forget the girl was 11. She could have made it to a doctor if she wanted.


Yup, It sure helped comfort her while she was having seizures and when she was unconscious and not breathing :>


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> She didn't die because of prayer. She died because she had undiagnosed diabetes. I'm sure prayer and good wishes did nothing but help the child. But yes I do think this counts as negligence in a modern western society. Though keep in mind there have been instances where modern medicine lead to death because doctors through cross cultural miscommunication would not listen to older eastern forms of healing.



Such as powdered leopard penises applied instead of viagra.


----------



## Azbulldog (Oct 7, 2009)

Dass said:


> One of various reasons I think 90% of religion is bull. But I still believe in a god, and will continue to do so until you explain every unexplainable thing in human history.



But the list of unexplainable things in history is getting shorter.

Inb4 five pages of religious arguments.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> Yup, It sure helped comfort her while she was having seizures and when she was unconscious and not breathing :>


I know you mean this as sarcasm, but yes having faith probably comforted her much more in the process, than your typical atheist going through the same thing.


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 7, 2009)

Oh boy another thread to spark a furry religious war, what wonders await us


----------



## Smelge (Oct 7, 2009)

I love the way people get cancer, and finally win the fight against it and claim that faith and belief in the lord helped them best the illness. Completely ignore the hours of chemotherapy and drugs. Nooo, it was the faith that did it. The treatments were just co-incidental.

If I was a doctor, I'd be fucking pissed off if I spent months busting my arse to treat a cancerous fucker, and they turned round and thank jesus christ and Mr Big upstairs. What the shit? I don't get thanks? Some "theoretical" deity gets the kudos.

Then I'd go get a can and relax, while hoping the moron goes and gets bad AIDS.


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> I know you mean this as sarcasm, but yes having faith probably comforted her much more in the process, than your typical atheist going through the same thing.


I find it hard to believe it comforted her in any way, considering she probably couldn't hear a word of it.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Oct 7, 2009)

I think weed would've been a much better replacement for prayer, if all we were trying to do is help the girls' death be as pain free as possible.

Physical release/Physical absence of pain > Mental denial of pain


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> I find it hard to believe it comforted her in any way, considering she probably couldn't hear a word of it.


Well that's a mote point. We can't exactly ask her if she heard prayer. But she did not have to hear anything for her own faith to be a comfort.


----------



## Smelge (Oct 7, 2009)

Personally, I believe that Mary was a complete whore.

Picture the scene. Your girlfriend refuses to go all the way with you, you've had a few blowjobs, it's all good. Maybe tonight you get some sweet lovin'. You leave the office, drive the donkey home stick it in the garage, walk in, and the girlfriend goes "OH JOSEPH! I'M PREGNANT!".

Now wait a fucking minute. My dick has not been in you. Unless sperm have suddenly developed a homing instinct, something is wrong.

"IT'S A MIRACLE! IMMACULATE CONCEPTION!"

Y'know, fuck you, whore. Someone else has obviously dicked you. Stop lying and get the fuck back in the kitchen, make my dinner then get out of my house.


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Well that's a mote point. We can't exactly ask her if she heard prayer. But she did not have to hear anything for her own faith to be a comfort.


yea, you're right. The current thought in her brain while she was going into shock and having seizures was about god.


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Oh boy another thread to spark a furry religious war, what wonders await us



Atheists masturbating each other, Christians nowhere to be found.


----------



## Sinjo (Oct 7, 2009)

jellyhurwit said:


> Atheists masturbating each other, Christians nowhere to be found.


Dutch rudder!


----------



## Gnome (Oct 7, 2009)

ok so the "divine" wanted her dead.
the _"gods"_ dont always do what we want lol


----------



## Captain Howdy (Oct 7, 2009)

If she was having *any* religious thoughts at the time of her death, it would probably be (assuming she was Christian/Catholic/etc.)
"Why is God..." and you can fill in the rest.

 That sure isn't very comforting. 

(Stop trying to make excuses :3 It didn't cite that she prayed, it didn't cite she was religious, it DID cite that she died, and by the way she died, we can assume it was probably pretty painful - So it's extremely unlikely that any prayer did, or would have stopped the pain.)


----------



## Azure (Oct 7, 2009)

jellyhurwit said:


> Atheists masturbating each other, Christians nowhere to be found.


Hopefully they're hiding in shame.


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Hopefully they're hiding in shame.



No, I'm just reading Arthur Magazine while you guys whack it all soft-dicked.
I don't know. Just waitin' for the bus.


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 7, 2009)

Gnome said:


> ok so the "divine" wanted her dead.
> the _"gods"_ dont always do what we want lol



God looked down and whispered

"No"


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> yea, you're right. The current thought in her brain while she was going into shock and having seizures was about god.


Again I hear your sarcasm. But yes many people that have near death experiences say that there last thoughts were faith oriented. I don't know why I'm still talking about this though. It's not uncommon knowledge that faith is a comfort to many people and the fact that you dispute this common knowledge is telling me that you most likely just want to argue.


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> God looked down and whispered
> 
> "No"



hah


----------



## Azure (Oct 7, 2009)

jellyhurwit said:


> No, I'm just reading Arthur Magazine while you guys whack it all soft-dicked.
> I don't know. Just waitin' for the bus.


Eh, I usually get a raging hard on while deconstructing the faiths of others.  But it might just be me.


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Eh, I usually get a raging hard on while deconstructing the faiths of others.  But it might just be me.



I see a lot of soft-dicks waiting for the first Christian asshole to walk in.
So, I guess that includes you right about now.


----------



## Aden (Oct 7, 2009)

LizardKing said:


> Cases where this has failed: 8,554,724 8,554,723



I think you counted that one time with the baby and the cancer twice. It's cool, I've done it too.


----------



## Azure (Oct 7, 2009)

jellyhurwit said:


> I see a lot of soft-dicks waiting for the first Christian asshole to walk in.
> So, I guess that includes you right about now.


They deserve it.


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> They deserve it.



Hey guys I'm Christian wink nudge

be gentle

or don't


----------



## Azure (Oct 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Hey guys I'm Christian wink nudge
> 
> be gentle
> 
> or don't


GOD IS DEAD


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Hey guys I'm Christian wink nudge
> 
> be gentle
> 
> or don't



Man, that gives "anal cunt" a whole new meaning.


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> GOD IS DEAD



Where is my violent raping

I would like my vicious molestation now please


----------



## Aurali (Oct 7, 2009)

I swore we had this thread before.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> GOD IS DEAD


Well of coarse he's dead even religious people believe that. That's why they meet him in the afterlife instead of at starbucks. 

And for the last time that little piece of toast is retarded. Put back your hung over rabbit thingy. Or something that looks hung over. It suits you better.:smile:


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Well of coarse he's dead even religious people believe that. That's why they meet him in the afterlife instead of at starbucks.
> 
> And for the last time that little piece of toast is retarded. Put back your hung over rabbit thingy. Or something that looks hung over. It suits you better.:smile:



I dunno, I like the toast.


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

Voting to keep toast.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> I dunno, I like the toast.


Your just saying that so he'll rape you. You can't like the toast, look at it.
eeeww it's dead eyes follow me.


----------



## Jelly (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Your just saying that so he'll rape you. You can't like the toast, look at it.
> eeeww it's dead eyes follow me.



No, the toast is pretty cool, brah. You on the other hand, are very fucked up. :[


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 7, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Your just saying that so he'll rape you. You can't like the toast, look at it.
> eeeww it's dead eyes follow me.



I love toast

I'm a pansexual


----------



## Jashwa (Oct 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> God looked down and whispered
> 
> "No"


If Rorschach was God....

I can't even finish that statement.  He's too badass.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 7, 2009)

jellyhurwit said:


> No, the toast is pretty cool, brah. You on the other hand, are very fucked up. :[


That toast looks like delbert and a wubsey had a baby. And I'll take fucked up as a compliment thank you.


----------



## Duality Jack (Oct 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Hopefully they're hiding in shame.


choir boys.


----------



## Fat_Deimos (Oct 8, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Oh boy another thread to spark a furry religious war, what wonders await us



My entertainment.


----------



## south syde dobe (Oct 8, 2009)

Damn it, its getting funny but we only have one religious cunt here...I need to get some people from church to look at this and then *BAM* instant entertainment for me


----------



## Lobar (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> She didn't die because of prayer. She died because she had undiagnosed diabetes. I'm sure prayer and good wishes did nothing



You could have stopped right here.

Prayer didn't kill her.  _Faith_ in prayer killed her.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

south syde fox said:


> Damn it, its getting funny but we only have one religious cunt here...I need to get some people from church to look at this and then *BAM* instant entertainment for me


I hope your not referring to me south syde. I ain't religious I'm just saying if they want to pray rather than seek medical aid, who gives a fuck. It's their choice.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

Lobar said:


> You could have stopped right here.
> 
> Prayer didn't kill her.  _Faith_ in prayer killed her.


Diabetes killed her. Her faith may have given her a more merciful end. If not diagnosed soon enough diabetes could have left her limbless, deaf, blind and speechless. Not to say it would have but it could have. Sometimes a quicker death is better.


----------



## Asswings (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Diabetes killed her. Her faith may have given her a more merciful end. If not diagnosed soon enough diabetes could have left her limbless, deaf, blind and speechless. Not to say it would have but it could have. Sometimes a quicker death is better.



Yep, writhing on the ground in pain and confusion is SO much more merciful than in the care of doctors.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

Ticon said:


> Yep, writhing on the ground in pain and confusion is SO much more merciful than in the care of doctors.


When are you people going to get tired of sarcasm?
You haven't been to the ICU too often. It is shocking what conditions the doctors will keep a patient in, in order to make more money. They can keep you alive while your body resembles and smells like a bloated cadaver. Yes a quick end is sometimes much more merciful.


----------



## Fat_Deimos (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> When are you people going to get tired of sarcasm?
> You haven't been to the ICU too often. It is shocking what conditions the doctors will keep a patient in, in order to make more money. They can keep you alive while your body resembles and smells like a bloated cadaver. Yes a quick end is sometimes much more merciful.



Are you denouncing doctors as bloodsuckers?


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

Fat_Deimos said:


> Are you denouncing doctors as bloodsuckers?


Yes some not all, my family all works in the medical profession and I do have a view that many doctors suck money from the withered anuses of the geriatric and icu patients. This is not a personal attack against you or your family if you are in the medical profession but if you are I'm sure you can agree that sometimes a quick death is better than icu care.


----------



## Fat_Deimos (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Yes some not all, my family all works in the medical profession and I do have a view that many doctors suck money from the withered anuses of the geriatric and icu patients. This is not a personal attack against you or your family if you are in the medical profession but if you are I'm sure you can agree that sometimes a quick death is better than icu care.



So you approve that the girl should have died a _quick death_ by having her writhe in agony of her afflictions?

Sir, I've been in and out of several intensive-care unit sectors and I am not sure what warranted you to believe that _some_ doctors are apparently these heartless extortionists that you believe them to be. *I am highly doubtful of your claims and if what you say is true, I would like to see some evidence reinforcing them.*

What I am drawing from your reasoning however is that you would rather have the sick die from or live with their scourges rather than have them visit the emergency room.
Is this your implication, Mr. twelvestring?


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

It is not my implication, It is your very wrong assumption. If you read my first post I said I thought it was negligence on the families part not to bring her in. I am not an organized religion type o guy. I just try to keep an open mind.

All I have said in this entire thread is
1. Her faith probably brought her some comfort(argue that if you want but it does for many people)
2. If undiagnosed long enough diabetes can be much more painful and drawn out.

These concepts are not debatable unless you just want to argue for the sake of it.
As for horrors in the icu there are plenty. I'm glad you haven't been to any negligent or horribly greedy hospitals. I see no point in giving a 98 year old woman a barium enema, that is so near death she dies before the procedure is completed, except to pump a few extra dollars out of her ass. All med professionals I hang out with say in case of emergence do not resuscitate. They don't want to end up in the icu. But believe what you want buddy I don't really care. Please stop arguing for the sake of it and read more carefully before you ASSume.


----------



## Lobar (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Diabetes killed her. Her faith may have given her a more merciful end. If not diagnosed soon enough diabetes could have left her limbless, deaf, blind and speechless. Not to say it would have but it could have. Sometimes a quicker death is better.



This is getting ridiculous.  If I convince you to forgo medical treatment for a curable disease to sell you my snake oil instead, am I blameless when you die?  After all, it was the disease that killed you, not the sugar pills I gave you.

It's also pretty damned disgusting that you'd argue that an eleven year old girl is better off dead just to avoid acknowledging the harmful role religion played in her death.


----------



## ila (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> It is not my implication, It is your very wrong assumption. If you read my first post I said I thought it was negligence on the families part not to bring her in. I am not an organized religion type o guy. I just try to keep an open mind.
> 
> All I have said in this entire thread is
> 1. Her faith probably brought her some comfort(argue that if you want but it does for many people)





when I was ten years old I was severely sick. Our neighbor and church buddies said just have faith and pray he'll get better just wait in a few days he'll be as  good as new. and my mom did that for... twenty minutes... all I remember from it was that I was in so much pain that I could not even cry anymore and scared beyond words... my mom then couldn't watch me suffer any more and took me to the icu turns out my appendix was burst and had she waited over night I would likely have died

I would much rather they skipped the praying and got me medical attention!
and to say that someone deserves to die based on the possibility of the living getting harder is highly flawed and out right evil.
I have volunteered to work with deaf, blind, handicapped and epileptic youths... and to tell you the truth most of them had a lot bigger respect and joy for life then your average person


----------



## Fat_Deimos (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:
			
		

> *I am not an organized religion type o guy. I just try to keep an open mind*.





			
				twelvestring said:
			
		

> It is not my implication, *It is your very wrong assumption.*





			
				twelvestring said:
			
		

> *This is not a personal attack against you or your family if you are in the medical profession* but if you are I'm sure you can agree that sometimes a quick death is better than icu care.





			
				twelvestring said:
			
		

> *I'm glad you haven't been to any negligent or horribly greedy hospitals.* I see no point in giving a 98 year old woman a barium enema, that is so near death she dies before the procedure is completed, except to pump a few extra dollars out of her ass.





			
				twelvestring said:
			
		

> I hope your not referring to me south syde.* I ain't religious I'm just saying if they want to pray rather than seek medical aid, who gives a fuck. It's their choice.*



Oh, so we're not going to go into a debate? 
I'm sorry for wasting your time then, I just had my _Big Book O' Medical Stuff_ out and I was going to read off from a passage which stated:



			
				Big Book O' Medical Stuff said:
			
		

> People who say that faith comforted a child's suffering and subsequent death, but then go on to say that the child could have brought herself into a medical room (not taking the child's age into consideration or even her agonies which should warrant an immediate visit to the Emergency Room) should be checked thoroughly for any mental aberrations.



I had somebody run me a sketch of what you may look like, and I highly believe the result is uncannily similar.


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Oct 8, 2009)

As a Christian he should have known that God threw the deuces to coddling mankind around six thousand years ago when he threw us out of the Communist Utopia that was Eden. It's right there in Genesis. Unless of course he was mistaking the metaphysical spiritual healing, written about by the Apostle Paul, for physical healing, then I blame his stupid seminary and minister too.


----------



## BlackDragonAlpha (Oct 8, 2009)

This is why religion loses more of it's followers every year/day/time.

I'm a Christian and still God-fearing, but I do have some doubts. Sometimes, I can only count on myself if in the things I do.

Angels always say that God loves us. but if he loves us so much, why doesn't he ever show himself to us? as in his real face, not a voice, not a plant or some glowing animal-thing, just his real face.

Another reason to doubt. I wonder if Angels ever saw God's real face/form b4. Plus, why won't any angels show up in the past years?


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Oct 8, 2009)

Filthy disgusting bastard. Such ritualistic savagery has no place in this century. Probably just going to pray even harder now.


----------



## GothDragon666 (Oct 8, 2009)

Nothing fails like prayer!


----------



## Lobar (Oct 8, 2009)

Oh, now I'm fucking *PISSED*.

These people were found guilty by a jury of their peers of second-degree reckless homicide, which carries a 25 year maximum.  Given that the victim was an innocent child, they probably deserved most, if not all of that maximum.

Instead, the judge is giving them a mere six months.  Because they're such good Christians.

Oh, wait, it gets better.  Not even six _continuous_ months.  Just one month out of the year at a time, for six years.  And each parent goes on a different month, so they can keep custody of their other kids that aren't being taken away for their safety, and will probably die too if they ever encounter a life-threatening illness like Kara did.

*FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKK!!!*


----------



## KiloFox (Oct 8, 2009)

Ha! No shit prayer didn't work dumbass... You'd have better luck asking a moth to mow your lawn...


----------



## Dyluck (Oct 8, 2009)

Lobar said:


> Oh, now I'm fucking *PISSED*.
> 
> These people were found guilty by a jury of their peers of second-degree reckless homicide, which carries a 25 year maximum.  Given that the victim was an innocent child, they probably deserved most, if not all of that maximum.
> 
> ...



oh god wut


----------



## Trpdwarf (Oct 8, 2009)

I fucking hate this shit.

There is a short hand term for this, it's called praying a child to death.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Oct 8, 2009)

Lobar said:


> Oh, now I'm fucking *PISSED*.
> 
> These people were found guilty by a jury of their peers of second-degree reckless homicide, which carries a 25 year maximum.  Given that the victim was an innocent child, they probably deserved most, if not all of that maximum.
> 
> ...



See this is one of the problems with the whole religious thing and freedom to worship religion.

Freedom of religion does not mean you should be free of the consequences you deserve when you fail to seek medical help for your children, when you are perfectly capable of getting them medical help, and they die. I've read up multiple cases dealing with this. It tends to happen in the middle states in the US, in less populated areas. It's chilling how similar the cases are. It's obvious the kid needs medical help. It's so fucking obvious. Then when the child dies that parents claim they thought faith would help. If I were on that jury I'd not give them a lick of sympathy. I don't care what you think, what happened was reprehensible. That child obviously needed help, and you denied that child help. More and more when I hear of these cases I think it has more to do with the parents just wanting to not pay out, and so they turn to "faith" knowing that if things don't work out, they can use their faith as a shield from the severe consequences of their actions.

I understand that sometimes illness does not seem to be as severe as it actually is. But instead of turning to prayer or faith(which I'm sorry but in the face of illness it will not help you), you really do need to turn to science, fact, information. Look up the symptoms. Educate yourself so that you can recognize the difference between something similar like a mild flu, and something more dangerous like childhood diabetes.


----------



## Aden (Oct 8, 2009)

Lobar said:


> Oh, now I'm fucking *PISSED*.
> 
> These people were found guilty by a jury of their peers of second-degree reckless homicide, which carries a 25 year maximum.  Given that the victim was an innocent child, they probably deserved most, if not all of that maximum.
> 
> ...



You're kidding. Can the prosecutor appeal? That has to be some kind of judge bias.


----------



## Jashwa (Oct 8, 2009)

Aden said:


> You're kidding. Can the prosecutor appeal? That has to be some kind of judge bias.


Exactly.  That can't be final.  There has to be some way to get around that.


----------



## Lobar (Oct 8, 2009)

Aden said:


> You're kidding. Can the prosecutor appeal? That has to be some kind of judge bias.



It depends on state law.  I know other states limit the reasons for which a prosecutor can appeal, and that seeking a tougher sentence is not one of them.
They might not even be inclined to do so, having technically already won the  case, which their job performance ifs judged by.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

Fat_Deimos said:


> Oh, so we're not going to go into a debate?
> I'm sorry for wasting your time then, I just had my _Big Book O' Medical Stuff_ out and I was going to read off from a passage which stated:
> 
> 
> ...


Debate, I love debate. Feel free to debate away on this subject. you can even pm me if it's something not quite on subject. But I warn you, twisting words of someone is not debate. It's just immature slander.

Troll? To tell you the truth I'm not much of a forum guy and am not to familiar with what a troll is. I believe it's someone who posts comments just to get a rise out of people, If so then no I am not trolling.

As for your big book quote. Doesn't make much sense to me, sorry.
A child being comforted by faith has nothing to do with her ability to say " daddy I want to go to the doctor" and I really don't see what that has to do with my own mental health.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Oct 8, 2009)

Fat_Deimos said:


> Source.
> 
> After reading the article, I can now say that this myth has been busted.


 
Considerably, this could become an argument of the state's inability to intervene on religious beliefs and affairs. Ultimately, it was their religious right to pray for her, rather than get medical attention. But the court cannot say that they were being negligent... They just chose a different path of attempting to heal her. And it failed. 

Other than that, for generations, Jews have practiced clandestine circumsicisions, people have opted out of getting their children vaccines for diseases, and other things like that....

And so long as they are the parent, they have the right to do that... 

Similar to how some people believe in the right to have an abortion....

So long as abortion can be viewed as a morally sound action, so can prayer for a sickly child.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> Considerably, this could become an argument of the state's inability to intervene on religious beliefs and affairs. Ultimately, it was their religious right to pray for her, rather than get medical attention. But the court cannot say that they were being negligent... They just chose a different path of attempting to heal her. And it failed.
> 
> Other than that, for generations, Jews have practiced clandestine circumsicisions, people have opted out of getting their children vaccines for diseases, and other things like that....
> 
> ...


Holy mother f#$king crap. Someone is actually using their logic. Thank you for an intelligent thought. Most people seem to be more concerned that she died during prayer. Than the fact that she died at all. But yes 100% agreement. It's a matter of religious freedom.


----------



## Aden (Oct 8, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Holy mother f#$king crap. Someone is actually using their logic. Thank you for an intelligent thought. Most people seem to be more concerned that she died during prayer. Than the fact that she died at all. But yes 100% agreement. It's a matter of religious freedom.



No it's okay for me to beat this guy to death, officer. It's part of my religion.


----------



## Gin&Tonic (Oct 8, 2009)

That artical is utter crap in the sense that it just proves the point fruther that religion is stupid. I go to a catholic school I have see how much bullshit there is. I swear I am going to get kicked out of that class this year XD


----------



## Duality Jack (Oct 8, 2009)

Gin&Tonic said:


> That artical is utter crap in the sense that it just proves the point fruther that religion is stupid. I go to a catholic school I have see how much bullshit there is. I swear I am going to get kicked out of that class this year XD


 skip Religion class to do devious things! that'll show em!


----------



## Gin&Tonic (Oct 8, 2009)

The Drunken Ace said:


> skip Religion class to do devious things! that'll show em!


 

real funny -.-'


----------



## feilen (Oct 8, 2009)

Azbulldog said:


> But the list of unexplainable things in history is getting shorter.
> 
> Inb4 five pages of religious arguments.



Then we just get into 'But all this evidence is LYING!'


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

Aden said:


> No it's okay for me to beat this guy to death, officer. It's part of my religion.


You should read the article again. No one tried to murder the girl. In fact they thought she just had a flu and called an ambulance when she stopped breathing. Unless your just throwing out more sarcasm. Logic people don't fear it.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Oct 8, 2009)

It was an indirect homicide. Death by improper action/negligence.


----------



## pheonix (Oct 8, 2009)

I don't have to even read the article to call this man a jackass in a Red Forman fashion.


----------



## Duality Jack (Oct 8, 2009)

Gin&Tonic said:


> real funny -.-'


 Is it not?


----------



## RoqsWolf (Oct 8, 2009)

I myself believe in god, but got to say this guy is a total idiot. Turning to faith for some thing that could easily be solved with medical care. 

It's like if you were to pray in hope of magicly being teleported to church.  If it weren't for this idiots arrogant actions the girl could be still alive and fine; but no, he has to be all magical and start praying.  

What an idiot, this makes me think of religion as bull shit now >:[


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 8, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> It was an indirect homicide. Death by improper action/negligence.


You get no argument from me on this. It was in fact negligent, but dumbasses as phenix calls them are suppose to have the right to practice what ever beliefs they want. Save beating the girl to death aden

That's right Red Formen said dumbass not jackass, dumbass


----------



## Captain Howdy (Oct 9, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> You get no argument from me on this.



This comes down to say, freedom of speech.

You have all the freedom of speech in the United States as you want, until it comes to intentionally, potentially, or actual endangering someones' life. 

You can practice a whole lot of freedoms as you wish, and as much as you want, in the States, until you " " endanger someones life.

This parent had a duty to protect the child's life, by law, and by natural human existence. The father failed to do so, and thus my "indirect" comment. He didn't slice her head off, or choke her to death, but he failed to act appropriately,  failed as a parent, and failed as a human being. 

How many red flags do you need, exactly? When your own child cannot move, cannot talk, and cannot eat or drink. What can she do, exactly, to tell you she's dying? 

The whole group of people are at fault for what they did, and did not do. There's no philosophy to it, no logic to discuss, it's all in black and white.


----------



## south syde dobe (Oct 9, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> This comes down to say, freedom of speech.
> 
> You have all the freedom of speech in the United States as you want, until it comes to intentionally, potentially, or actual endangering someones' life.
> 
> ...


 
Bingo, we have hit the jackpot!!!
I wonder how twelvestring is going to counter this? XD


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 9, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Holy mother f#$king crap. Someone is actually using their logic. Thank you for an intelligent thought. Most people seem to be more concerned that she died during prayer. Than the fact that she died at all. But yes 100% agreement. It's a matter of religious freedom.



I find it funny sometimes that the Bible says that a man should not sleep with another man, but a few pages later it says you have to stone belligerent children...

Yeahhh... just my 2 Cents. Put it bluntly, the guy was an idiot that doesn't belong in this century. Sure I would expect this in 1400 AD. But not when we actually live past the age of 50 and can actually cure diseases instead of trying to pray them away.


----------



## Aden (Oct 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> I find it funny sometimes that the Bible says that a man should not sleep with another man, but a few pages later it says you have to stone belligerent children...



People: GAYS
Christians: LEVITICUS
People: WHAT ABOUT THOSE OTHER THINGS IN LEVITICUS
Christians: LEVITICUS WAS ABROGATED
People: OH, OKAY. GAYS
Christians: LEVITICUS


----------



## Jashwa (Oct 9, 2009)

Aden said:


> People: GAYS
> Christians: LEVITICUS
> People: WHAT ABOUT THOSE OTHER THINGS IN LEVITICUS
> Christians: LEVITICUS WAS ABROGATED
> ...


I lol'd.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 9, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> This comes down to say, freedom of speech.
> 
> You have all the freedom of speech in the United States as you want, until it comes to intentionally, potentially, or actual endangering someones' life.
> 
> ...


Wow another intelligent poster, good for you buddy. Morally I agree with you. I've said all along I considered this negligent. Morally I too consider this a black and white topic. Politically  the situation gets a little more of a gray area. There are religious rights. Should we force medical aid on people that don't believe it is right. Force a jehovah witness to take a life saving blood transfusion. Remember the parents were not charged with good ol fashion homicide, this highly implies that the girl practiced these beliefs herself. Meaning that it was most likely not just her parents crazy beliefs that did not get her proper medical attention on time, but her own as well.
Once again thank you for some logical insight on the topic.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> I find it funny sometimes that the Bible says that a man should not sleep with another man, but a few pages later it says you have to stone belligerent children...
> 
> Yeahhh... just my 2 Cents. Put it bluntly, the guy was an idiot that doesn't belong in this century. Sure I would expect this in 1400 AD. But not when we actually live past the age of 50 and can actually cure diseases instead of trying to pray them away.


I like throwing rocks at bratty kids.:smile:


----------



## feathery (Oct 9, 2009)

From the title i can just say wow.


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 9, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> Remember the parents were not charged with good ol fashion homicide, this highly implies that the girl practiced these beliefs herself. Meaning that it was most likely not just her parents crazy beliefs that did not get her proper medical attention on time, but her own as well.



So your saying the girl chose to die in writhing agony while her parents did nothing, instead of getting medical attention?


----------



## Whitenoise (Oct 9, 2009)

Total Darwinism, nothing of value was lost :V .


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 9, 2009)

Whitenoise said:


> Total Darwinism, nothing of value was lost :V .



A person's life isn't something of value to you Whitenoise? I know your a troll and everything, but even dying writhing in agony is not for the lulz.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Oct 9, 2009)

Aden said:


> No it's okay for me to beat this guy to death, officer. It's part of my religion.


 
My original argument was that if Abortion is okay, due to the parent's right over the child, then praying for a child should also be allowed without prosecution.


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 9, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> then praying for a child should also be allowed without prosecution.



Praying for a child is one thing. Not seeking medical attention due to your own "faith that god will keep you alive if you keep praying" is quite another. Plus this wasn't a quick death either. This was a long and excruciating painful one while all the parents did was kneel beside her and pray.


----------



## Lobar (Oct 9, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> My original argument was that if Abortion is okay, due to the parent's right over the child, then praying for a child should also be allowed without prosecution.



An eleven year old girl is not a fetus.  Try again.


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 9, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> I like throwing rocks at bratty kids.:smile:



Not just hurting them. I mean if a kid talks back to you, it is your God given right to pick up a rock and beat that little fucker to death. Especially if he's your own son. It reminds me of more primitive cultures where the law was. If a child disobeys you, or talks back you are allowed to cut his/her's right hand off as punishment. 

Yeah this is obviously a result of the Bible's multiple authors. One of which was a retard who justified killing things as "God telling him to".

As a result Christianity picks and chooses what rules to follow and what rules not to. Which I find simply hilarious they don't follow their own subject material, yet they hold it in such high regard.


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Not just hurting them. I mean if a kid talks back to you, it is your God given right to pick up a rock and beat that little fucker to death. Especially if he's your own son. It reminds me of more primitive cultures where the law was. If a child disobeys you, or talks back you are allowed to cut his/her's right hand off as punishment.
> 
> Yeah this is obviously a result of the Bible's multiple authors. One of which was a retard who justified killing things as "God telling him to".
> 
> As a result Christianity picks and chooses what rules to follow and what rules not to. Which I find simply hilarious they don't follow their own subject material, yet they hold it in such high regard.


lol Take no offense to my obvious joke. Yes I agree It seems all faiths have their contradictions.


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 9, 2009)

twelvestring said:


> lol Take no offense to my obvious joke. Yes I agree It seems all faiths have their contradictions.



3 of the biggest faiths share the same old testament (Christianity, Judaism and Islamic). They just have different new testaments

This is probably due to the fact they all originated in the same place. (The middle east). Except their newer testaments were drawn up elsewhere.


----------



## Azbulldog (Oct 9, 2009)

Azbulldog said:


> Inb4 five pages of religious arguments.


Success!


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Oct 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Praying for a child is one thing. Not seeking medical attention due to your own "faith that god will keep you alive if you keep praying" is quite another. Plus this wasn't a quick death either. This was a long and excruciating painful one while all the parents did was kneel beside her and pray.


 
Who said I supported it? 



Lobar said:


> An eleven year old girl is not a fetus. Try again.


 
Eh, well, that is where social darwinism takes its place. And she had the Diabeetus.

Plus, the girl was sick, and would have most likely contributed little to society due to her upbringing by a boatload of people who are definately Mensa material.

Fetuses, though, we have no clue of what they could have contributed to the world (other than, maybe, poop, and more carbon dioxide).

The argument I made was more to show that it is a frivolous gesture to say that praying parents kill children and should be punished when you most likely support parents' rights to have an abortion (effectively killing a future son or daughter, and all the chances you would have to take them to the ballgame and beating the shit out of them for spilling the paint in the garage).


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 10, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> Who said I supported it?



Your defending of it


jesusfish2007 said:


> Plus, the girl was sick, and would have most likely contributed little to society due to her upbringing by a boatload of people who are definately Mensa material.



You can predict the future? Cool, how do you know this girl was suddenly not going to contribute to society? I mean a lot of people have bad childhoods but they turn out alright. You must really be a super genius at predicting the future. I mean she was only 11 right, no proper way to judge what her place in life was at that age. Your prediction methods must be astounding.

In all seriousness you sound like one of those people who supports abortion on the grounds that we could be killing off potential serial killers and tyrannical dictators. Though people like Adolph Hitler weren't born evil, just a rejection letter from art school made then evil.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Oct 10, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Your defending of it
> 
> 
> You can predict the future? Cool, how do you know this girl was suddenly not going to contribute to society? I mean a lot of people have bad childhoods but they turn out alright. You must really be a super genius at predicting the future. I mean she was only 11 right, no proper way to judge what her place in life was at that age. Your prediction methods must be astounding.
> ...


 
I support Abortion in the hopes that those who plan on getting one are doing so because they understand that they are lacking intelligence, and thus, should not contribute to the gene pool.


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 10, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> I support Abortion in the hopes that those who plan on getting one are doing so because they understand that they are lacking intelligence, and thus, should not contribute to the gene pool.



You know countries that ban abortion have massive population problems in big cities... (looks to Mexico)


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Oct 10, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> You know countries that ban abortion have massive population problems in big cities... (looks to Mexico)


 
Exactly. It is also part of the Culture of Mexico (Roman Catholicism).

I simply hope that the Earth's population will keep itself in line, or nature will...

Listen to Aenima by Tool. 

If not, here are the lyrics:

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.

It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.
Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.

Learn to swim.

Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.


----------



## CryoScales (Oct 10, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> Exactly. It is also part of the Culture of Mexico (Roman Catholicism).
> 
> I simply hope that the Earth's population will keep itself in line, or nature will...



Darwin predicted something like this during his "origin of new species". Pretty much, following overproduction you go toward survival of the fittest until most of the population kills itself. Then either the species dies out, or evolves into something else to survive. If a species stops evolving, it will inevitably die out.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Oct 10, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Darwin predicted something like this during his "origin of new species". Pretty much, following overproduction you go toward survival of the fittest until most of the population kills itself. Then either the species dies out, or evolves into something else to survive. If a species stops evolving, it will inevitably die out.


 
Thus, 
I teach you the Overman. Mankind is something to be overcome. What have you done to overcome mankind?


----------



## Jude Prudence (Oct 10, 2009)

Fat_Deimos said:


> Source.
> 
> After reading the article, I can now say that this myth has been busted.




No, this just proves that you don't go to God instead of the fucking Doctor.


----------



## Duality Jack (Oct 10, 2009)

Jude Prudence said:


> No, this just proves that you don't go to God instead of the fucking Doctor.


EXACTLY~! 

Faith does not define you its what you do with it as well.
 Religion =/= BAD 
but
 Religion pushed on others = Bad. 

Yah get me? I am not an Atheist, More of an Agnostic that Dabbles in paganism


----------



## twelvestring (Oct 10, 2009)

Jude Prudence said:


> No, this just proves that you don't go to God instead of the fucking Doctor.


This reminds me of that old joke.

Man sitting on the roof of his house in a flood.
Over time 3 rescue boats and a helicopter try to save him.
But he waves them on and says god will save him.
After a while the waters keep rising and he drowns.
At the pearly gates the man asks saint peter why god did not save him.
Saint peter replied "What are you talking about? We sent 3 boats and a helicopter"


----------



## Verin Asper (Oct 11, 2009)

What I learn here
Praying doesnt help, but maybe he was waiting for god to tell him "TAKE HER TO THE DOCTOR FOOL"


----------

