# The Power of Prayer: Death through Inaction



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 3, 2009)

Some people believe that prayer gives them the ability to speak directly to a god or some sort of spiritual force. In addition they hold the view that such an action can be used to influence the outcome of events, specifically healing the sick, and most churches will pray for members of the church who are sick. Of course, such beliefs are utterly ridiculous, but what harm can come from them? If people want to pray for others then why should we care? The answer is simple, prayer is far from harmless. It fosters a set of misguided ideas and in some cases can lead to the death of other people.


 Perhaps that all sounded a bit harsh. How can prayer lead to the death of people, particularly if it doesn't actually do anything? At times by not acting you can do more harm than through taking a chance with your actions. A South African newspaper, the 'Cape Times', reported on 3 August 2009 about a case that occurred earlier in the year in the United States. An 11-year-old girl died of undiagnosed diabetes, without ever getting medical treatment. In fact she died,unable to walk, talk, eat or drink, at home surrounded by people who were praying! Her parents were both charged with second-degree reckless homicide, and her father was convicted on 23 March 2009. They face 25 years in jail each. Why didn't the girl receive medical treatment? Her father believed that god would heal her, as he promises in the Bible, and that going to a doctor he would be putting the doctor before god.


 In 2005 an aeroplane crashed off the coast of Sicily, resulting in the deaths of 16 people. While the crash was partly due to a faulty fuel gauge, the problem was compounded when the pilot failed to follow emergency procedures and instead prayed out loud before crash landing in the Mediterranean Sea. The pilot was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 10 years in jail.  


The medical benefits of prayer have indeed been tested and a brief summary on the results is given in the book 'Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial' by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst. They relate how it is well known that prayer does indeed benefit patients, when they are aware of it. That's easy to explain as a simple psychological pick-me-up that occurs when you know people are thinking of and supporting you. Is there more to that though? If prayer actually has some ability to heal people then it shouldn't matter if they know that someone is praying for them or not.  


Indeed a study in 2001 found that prayer has a significant effect in patients who are unaware that they are being prayed for. However it later was revealed that the most prominent author of the research did not participate and was merely an editor and he has subsequently removed his name from the research and doesn't support it. The second author stands by the research, but pleaded guilty to criminal fraud in 2004, so lacks credibility. Only the third author is credible and supports the paper.


Three other papers investigating the effect of prayer are also mentioned in the book, one in 2001 involving 799 patients, one in 2005 with 329 patients and one in 2006 which followed over 1000 patients. All three of them found prayer to be ineffective.  


Medical research is clear on this point, prayer does not show benefits, other than the psychological effect, which would be obtained whether you actually prayed for the person or not. In fact lying to the patient about praying and if you actual pray for them or not are just as morally deplorable. Prayer is a useless waste of time and effort and could have serious consequences when people choose prayer over science. Praying is as irresponsible as if you saw a fire breaking out in a building, stood next the extinguisher and tried to douse the flames with psychic power.


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## M. LeRenard (Aug 3, 2009)

Good post, though it would benefit if you cited your sources, too.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 3, 2009)

Here are websites with the two stories:
Girl - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ng-led-to-death-of-his-daughter-14441699.html
Pilot - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7962082.stm

The stuff on the experiments on Prayer is from 'Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial' by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst.


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## Rai Toku (Aug 3, 2009)

Faith without works is dead. Says so in the Bible. God's not going to do anything for you if you won't get off your ass and put in some effort. A doctor may pray for an operation to be a success, but if he doesn't go in there and do his best to make it so, nothing's going to change. A man may pray to win the lottery, but if he buys no ticket, how will he?


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## Runefox (Aug 3, 2009)

There are other problems with prayer, too - Relying on it, for example, before doing something will put you into a state of smugness or encourage you to put less effort into it because "God is on your side". Relying on it while ill would be catastrophic.

I personally don't believe in anything in particular, so maybe people can feel and see things that I can't. But when, as in your example, a plane is crashing and you do nothing to stop it but pray when you're a trained pilot, it certainly becomes clearer and clearer that either praying does nothing, or God has no time for your petty mumblings.


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## Kangamutt (Aug 3, 2009)

Plenty more where that came from: http://whatstheharm.net/faithhealing.html


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## M. LeRenard (Aug 3, 2009)

> Relying on it, for example, before doing something will put you into a state of smugness or encourage you to put less effort into it because "God is on your side". Relying on it while ill would be catastrophic.


I'm no Christian apologist or anything (ha ha!), but the first would seem to me to depend on both the person and the circumstances, and the second would seem to depend on the state of the illness.  For example, let's say you had advanced and untreatable lymphoma; if the doctors all say, "Sorry, can't do nothin' for ya," generally you resort to just wishing it would go away (otherwise known as prayer), because that's all you can do, right?  Nothing wrong with that.
I think the main problem would be, as in the examples in the original post, when a person who is responsible for other peoples' lives decides to put everything in 'God's' hands.  Or anything related to that, whether that be relying solely on 'alternative medicine', homeopathy, or choosing not to vaccinate a child because of a stupid conspiracy theory supported by a celebrity grieving over her autistic child.  No one likes ignorance leading to suffering.


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

God is Dead. Live Dangerously. 

Let me clarify the above statement that had originally been made by Fredrich Nietzsche... God's place in society is over, and people are beginning to make decisions for themselves, while technology is advancing more than it ever has...
Indeed, God should not be a law, or something to fear, but a goal of what to become...


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## ChrisPanda (Aug 3, 2009)

placebo effect can have an effect people think that they will get better the mind tricks the body. but i agree with you, i just play devils advocate


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## HoneyPup (Aug 3, 2009)

I've heard of other cases of this before, and it makes me sad to think that people watch their loved ones suffer when they could prevent it if they actually do something. Instead they sit back and wait for some imaginary being to do something.
The placebo effect can only work but so far without real medicine.


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## Azbulldog (Aug 3, 2009)

Rai Toku said:


> Faith without works is dead. Says so in the Bible. God's not going to do anything for you if you won't get off your ass and put in some effort. A doctor may pray for an operation to be a success, but if he doesn't go in there and do his best to make it so, nothing's going to change. A man may pray to win the lottery, but if he buys no ticket, how will he?


Or they could easily not pray, and walk in there and perform the operation or buy a lottery ticket and have the same outcome.


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## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

I don't believe on purely using faith and prayer to solve all your problems.

I also don't believe on using science and your own strength for everything.

A healthy mixture of both is always a good thing, no matter what faith you choose.  While there are instances of prayer not working to the benefit of the patient, there are an equal amount where prayer is answered and the patient is healed...sometimes to the bafflement of the doctors.

The problem lies where you demand that god heals you of your situation, then you blame god or say that prayer does not work.

It's like telling god how to roll his dice.  

http://www.shareguide.com/Dossey.html - On prayer and meditation in Medicine
http://www.webmd.com/news/20011106/...cine?src=Inktomi&condition=Home+&+Top+Stories - Prayer in Medicine (article)


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## kashaki (Aug 3, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> Plenty more where that came from: http://whatstheharm.net/faithhealing.html


Wow. That's depressing.


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## Rai Toku (Aug 3, 2009)

Azbulldog said:


> Or they could easily not pray, and walk in there and perform the operation or buy a lottery ticket and have the same outcome.



They could. I'm just saying that if you pray for something, go about your business and act like God's not going to do a thing. That means do what you can, and do the best you can. If God helps you, He helps you. If He doesn't, He doesn't. At least you won't have any regrets, and no man should blame you or hold you accountable should things turn out badly -you did what you could.



CAThulu said:


> I don't believe on purely using faith and prayer to solve all your problems.
> 
> I also don't believe on using science and your own strength for everything.
> 
> ...



This.


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## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> God is Dead. Live Dangerously.
> 
> Let me clarify the above statement that had originally been made by Fredrich Nietzsche... God's place in society is over, and people are beginning to make decisions for themselves, while technology is advancing more than it ever has...
> Indeed, God should not be a law, or something to fear, but a goal of what to become...



I wouldn't necessarily say that God is "dead" but I do believe that God is sort of letting us go on our own now because of all of the technology we have today. I mean, we really depended on God back then because that was a time period that we needed help because we don't have all of the fancy technology we have today. But now that we have technology, God doesn't have to do as much work as he did before.



Rai Toku said:


> Faith without works is dead. Says so in the Bible. God's not going to do anything for you if you won't get off your ass and put in some effort. A doctor may pray for an operation to be a success, but if he doesn't go in there and do his best to make it so, nothing's going to change. A man may pray to win the lottery, but if he buys no ticket, how will he?



Seconded, this is true.


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## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Ugh, people.  God is DEAD, his place in society has been thoroughly usurped by bloody common sense and medical advancement, along with reams of philosophy and such nonsense. Faith is useless, especially in the religious sense.  Even IF your god was real, I doubt he'd give two shits about you. Faith healing is bullshit, prayer is bullshit.  It's kind of like those placebo drugs, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. We don't need an invisible shepherd to lull ourselves into a false sense of security, we have plenty of REAL solutions for such things.


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## HoneyPup (Aug 3, 2009)

another site with cases: http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

Spiritual guidance, not asking for miracles. If God just sorted everything for us insted of letting us solve the issues ourself then what would be the point in living? Part of life is using our own personal experiences and determination to overcome obsticles.


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## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

^ pretty much this.


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

Rakuen has no idea to be frank.


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## Tewin Follow (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Spiritual guidance, not asking for miracles. If God just sorted everything for us insted of letting us solve the issues ourself then what would be the point in living? Part of life is using our own personal experiences and determination to overcome obsticles.


 
Well, if we're talking about the Bible-God, he DOES promise miracles and to "solve issues".

"Ask and it shall be given to you." and so forth. 
There's no "oh, but if you do, life won't be so enjoyable, y'know. But I'll do it anyway, because you asked." 

It's just a flat-out lie that doesn't happen beyond the realms of probability.
You could pray all day to a bear and get the same results regarding anything you'd ask any god for.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Spiritual guidance, not asking for miracles. If God just sorted everything for us insted of letting us solve the issues ourself then what would be the point in living? Part of life is using our own personal experiences and determination to overcome obsticles.



Then what's the point of prayer in the *first *place, if we're supposed to solve stuff ourselves? This statement reeks of cop-out as to why PRAYER DOESN'T WORK.



Get-dancing said:


> Rakuen has no idea to be frank.



He's not "Frank", he's Rakuen!


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## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

lololollololololol praying.

And religion in general.

Happy and proud atheist here, hows that praying going for you guys?


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## ArielMT (Aug 3, 2009)

Is it just me, or is this the same sort of cult-based denial of medical care that Scientologists believe is right?

Faith without science is mad.  Science without faith is lame.  Both alone are empty.

(No gods are required for faith.)


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## Bambi (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Ugh, people. God is DEAD, his place in society has been thoroughly usurped by bloody common sense and medical advancement, along with reams of philosophy and such nonsense. Faith is useless, especially in the religious sense. Even IF your god was real, I doubt he'd give two shits about you. Faith healing is bullshit, prayer is bullshit. It's kind of like those placebo drugs, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. *We don't need an invisible shepherd to lull ourselves into a false sense of security, we have plenty of REAL solutions for such things.*


ITT; SRS BZNS

Last part I agree with though.


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## M. LeRenard (Aug 3, 2009)

> I mean, we really depended on God back then because that was a time period that we needed help because we don't have all of the fancy technology we have today.  But now that we have technology, God doesn't have to do as much work as he did before.


Please enlighten me: what did God used to do, in the past?  Because I seem to have learned somewhere that during the Dark Ages (one of the ages in which God was relied on the most), a lot of people suffered and died somewhat needlessly, either by their own hands, by the hands of their leaders, or by plagues, pestilence, and famine (or other 'acts of God').
I'll agree that people depended a lot more on God, but honestly, I really have my doubts as to whether or not it did any good.  I don't think He probably did any more 'work' then as He's doing right now.  Unless His 'work' was to kill people off, which certain Biblical passages maybe could make me support that claim.
No, I prefer to think that's it's always been completely up to us.  Makes you feel more responsible, both in the positive and negative sense.


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## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> hows that praying going for you guys?



Great 

How's science going with you guys?



AzurePhoenix said:


> Ugh, people.  God is DEAD, his place in society has been thoroughly usurped by bloody common sense and medical advancement, along with reams of philosophy and such nonsense. Faith is useless, especially in the religious sense.  Even IF your god was real, I doubt he'd give two shits about you. Faith healing is bullshit, prayer is bullshit.  It's kind of like those placebo drugs, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. We don't need an invisible shepherd to lull ourselves into a false sense of security, we have plenty of REAL solutions for such things.



Well, faith in God doesn't hurt, it is just too much faith in God that does hurt. You can't expect God to do everything for you, you have to put a little effort yourself into it as well.

When you pray, two things could happen, God could help you, or God lets you go on your own in the situation, if you rely on God too much, then prepare for the consequences for not putting your own effort into the situation, which explains all of the cases you all posted here.


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## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Spiritual guidance, not asking for miracles. If God just sorted everything for us insted of letting us solve the issues ourself then what would be the point in living? Part of life is using our own personal experiences and determination to overcome obsticles.



So remind me again why we need god in our lives? You shouldn't require blind faith in deity #95714 to deal with situations.



Darkwing said:


> Great
> 
> How's science going with you guys?



Pretty good. Still working on that whole cancer thing though.


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

That's like saying my teacher doesn't want me to get an A grade on my paper because she won't just ghost-write it for me. :-/


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## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> Pretty good. Still working on that whole cancer thing though.



Cool, we will be here chillin' at our altars if you don't mind


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## Rai Toku (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Rakuen has no idea to be frank.



I wouldn't go that far. I'd just say he's angry at the idiots who sit around praying, thinking it'll solve all their problems -I am too. Sure, I've been raised Mormon (though I'm going agnostic the moment I move out), and I hold a strong belief in the power of prayer -I can even name a miracle or two in my life, but even I know that prayer alone can't solve anything. If the only thing you can do to help the situation is pray, I've nothing against it -it's all you can do. But if a family member is sitting right next to you, slowly dying, and you refuse to give that person medical treatment because you believe God will heal said person... it's appalling.



Harebelle said:


> Well, if we're talking about the Bible-God, he DOES promise miracles and to "solve issues".
> 
> "Ask and it shall be given to you." and so forth.
> There's no "oh, but if you do, life won't be so enjoyable, y'know. But I'll do it anyway, because you asked."
> ...



God doesn't say exactly what will be given to you. IT. Oooohhh... 'It' is whatever God feels you need, which can be anything from a new house to a chocolate bar to a simple answer. You could ask for an extra set of arms so you can move a couch, and instead of growing two new arms, a friend will stop by out of the blue. You could ask to change gender suddenly but have nothing happen. Not what you were looking for, but He still gave you 'it' -His answer to your request, in this case.


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## Tewin Follow (Aug 3, 2009)

Rai Toku said:


> God doesn't say exactly what will be given to you. IT. Oooohhh... 'It' is whatever God feels you need, which can be anything from a new house to a chocolate bar to a simple answer. You could ask for an extra set of arms so you can move a couch, and instead of growing two new arms, a friend will stop by out of the blue. You could ask to change gender suddenly but have nothing happen. Not what you were looking for, but He still gave you 'it' -His answer to your request, in this case.


 
That's nice, and it's sweet. But it doesn't happen., no matter how nice the concept is.

If I need to move a sofa, I could call up my friends and they'll help, I don't need to ask God at all.

If I ask God to replace a little boy's missing hand, he won't do it. Ever. Sure, you can say "oh, but the plastic medical replacement IS God replacing the hand!"

So what if I asked God to bring back the hand before medical hands were invented by people?


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## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> That's like saying my teacher doesn't want me to get an A grade on my paper because she won't just ghost-write it for me. :-/



So God personally taught you all the concepts you need to know for life before testing you. Man that must have rocked.



Darkwing said:


> Cool, we will be here chillin' at our altars if you don't mind



'S cool. We'll just be over here advancing the architecture and materials that you guys will use to build more altars; don't wait up. :awesome:


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> So God personally taught you all the concepts you need to know for life before testing you. Man that must have rocked.



Yes, well, 2nd or 3rd hand via the bible.


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## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Yes, well, 2nd or 3rd hand via the bible.



Must've sucked for all those people born before the bible was written.


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## Rai Toku (Aug 3, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> That's nice, and it's sweet. But it doesn't happen., no matter how nice the concept is.
> 
> If I need to move a sofa, I could call up my friends and they'll help, I don't need to ask God at all.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to sit here and argue. Frankly, this whole year has been trying my faith in God (hence me saying I'm going agnostic the moment I move out), and I'm still rather surprised I believe in Him enough to argue this long.
As for that little boy without a hand, I can't say I know what God would do. Sure, if he wanted the boy to have a new hand, the boy would get a new hand, one way or another, by human means or by means of a miracle. If not, the boy would have to find his own way to get a new hand, or live without.
I've simply learned it best not to try my already waning sanity on things I'll never understand, and to move on.

And with that, I say adieu. You can claim victory if you will, call me a coward running from battle, but I am sick of the fight and my loyalty is not enough to compel me to stay.


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## Tewin Follow (Aug 3, 2009)

Rai Toku said:


> I'm not going to sit here and argue. Frankly, this whole year has been trying my faith in God (hence me saying I'm going agnostic the moment I move out), and I'm still rather surprised I believe in Him enough to argue this long.
> As for that little boy without a hand, I can't say I know what God would do. Sure, if he wanted the boy to have a new hand, the boy would get a new hand, one way or another, by human means or by means of a miracle. If not, the boy would have to find his own way to get a new hand, or live without.
> I've simply learned it best not to try my already waning sanity on things I'll never understand, and to move on.
> 
> And with that, I say adieu. You can claim victory if you will, call me a coward running from battle, but I am sick of the fight and my loyalty is not enough to compel me to stay.


 
I'ma not call you anything. I'ma sit here eating berries. :U
I think it's brave of you to admit you don't have all the answers in the first place, so it's cool.

It just irks me that people insist their belief IS right and and IS doing X/Y/Z when it's "doing so" by a means that doesn't look like it's done anything at all. I'm sure you can understand my frustrations.

Fare thee well and all that. CHU!


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Ugh, people. God is DEAD, his place in society has been thoroughly usurped by bloody common sense and medical advancement, along with reams of philosophy and such nonsense. Faith is useless, especially in the religious sense. Even IF your god was real, I doubt he'd give two shits about you. Faith healing is bullshit, prayer is bullshit. It's kind of like those placebo drugs, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. We don't need an invisible shepherd to lull ourselves into a false sense of security, we have plenty of REAL solutions for such things.


 
Amen.


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Ugh, people.  God is DEAD, his place in society has been thoroughly usurped by bloody common sense and medical advancement, along with reams of philosophy and such nonsense. Faith is useless, especially in the religious sense.  Even IF your god was real, I doubt he'd give two shits about you. Faith healing is bullshit, prayer is bullshit.  It's kind of like those placebo drugs, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. We don't need an invisible shepherd to lull ourselves into a false sense of security, we have plenty of REAL solutions for such things.



To "Science can't anwser anything that philosiphy can't, and philosiphy is dribble", I quote a post made by Surgat, an athiest, previously because no one could have destroyed this ignorant attitude better:



> Originally Posted by Surgat
> Prove to me, using scientific methodologies alone, and without circularity or other question-begging:
> 
> -That other people have consciousness
> ...


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## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> How's science going with you guys?


Still as infallible, predictable, and practical as ever. How's the Second Coming going?  I heard from a friend that Jesus is gonna be waaaaaaaaaaay late, he's crashing a party at Vishnus place.




Darkwing said:


> Well, faith in God doesn't hurt, it is just too much faith in God that does hurt. You can't expect God to do everything for you, you have to put a little effort yourself into it as well.
> 
> When you pray, two things could happen, God could help you, or God lets you go on your own in the situation, if you rely on God too much, then prepare for the consequences for not putting your own effort into the situation, which explains all of the cases you all posted here.


So tell me, what does faith in God help? People who use the words "rely on God" strike me as pretty much the least useful of human beings.  Why not rely on yourself, or another, tangible being? Didn't GOD give you all of these wonderful things, like a brain, oppose able thumbs, an advanced endocrine system, and everything that is wondrous about the human body and psyche? Shit, we forged an incredible civilization, all with our own hands and minds, and you want to PRAY?  God doesn't have solutions, HE HAS MIRACLES! Fuck modern medicine, I'm going to pray to a being that doesn't exist, to solve a problem I could remedy down at the local Urgent Care Clinic, or the nearest hospital.  Unless it's a problem within their lifestyle, and even then, I doubt any caring, intelligent god would bother with it, because he'd be in incredible pain to see his creation collapse in on itself through its own stupidity.


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

Let's see you then fag, build you're own universe then add in a race of divine beings into it and run them into creating a perfect society with fair harmony and justice, be it to curing children with AIDs in africa to people's own individiual financial issues. THEN I'll see you critisise God, that will be a pretty interesting discussion.


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## Tewin Follow (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Let's see you then fag, build you're own universe then add in a race of divine beings into it and run them into creating a perfect society with fair harmony and justice, be it to curing children with AIDs in africa to people's own individiual financial issues. THEN I'll see you critisise God, that will be a pretty interesting discussion.


 
One could go into the: "why create beings _knowing_ (with your perfect all-knowing mind and all) that your perfect creation is flawed and will suffer in the first place..?" field.


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## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> To "Science can't anwser anything that philosiphy can't, and philosiphy is dribble", I quote a post made by Surgat, an athiest, previously because no one could have destroyed this ignorant attitude better:


I didn't say what you purport.  I was saying that the two are contiguous, as in connected, and have replaced religion.  And don't use tools you don't understand. My point is that religion has been distilled by philosophy, and some of the retardation has been taken out of it. Science fills in the rest. Hell, religion and science can't even coexist, but science and philosophy, they go hand in hand.



Get-dancing said:


> Let's see you then fag, build you're own universe then add in a race of divine beings into it and run them into creating a perfect society with fair harmony and justice, be it to curing children with AIDs in africa to people's own individiual financial issues. THEN I'll see you critisise God, that will be a pretty interesting discussion.


Ah, resorting to sexist slurs?  Classy.  Even so, a caring God he cannot be.  If he was ALL POWERFUL, as purported many times in the bible, then this farce of a science project wouldn't have even happened.  Though, if I were God, and had to build a society, I wouldn't tell my creation about myself at all. That removes any and all possible controls from the experiment.  I'd just sit back and watch, and probably laugh, as God is doing if he exists at all.


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## Get-dancing (Aug 3, 2009)

Privlage of free will?


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

I am an absurdist. So long as I am on this planet, my only focus should be real life, and real things, in addition to understanding things better within this realm, rather than focusing on another realm that I am not in...

I am also an agnostic. I do not deny that a god could exist, but why should I care about him/her if there are things I should fear more directly in front of me. I do not fear the wraith of gods, because if I piss them off, then who would care. Divine beings certainly shouldn't care about a sixteen year old not giving a fuck about their laws... 

If they are in control, then all my actions are in accordance with its will... Which would mean that God wants me to pop 4 Adderrall XRs, run 4 miles, and take shit on someone's porch for lulz, then go down, and almost have a heart attack from drinking copious amounts of caffienated beverages and smoking some cigarettes...

Because that is exactly what I feel like doing right now, and if they didn't want it, then I wouldn't be thinking about it, unless they A) Didn't care, or B) Didn't Exist, or C) Don't control everything.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 3, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Let's see you then fag, build you're own universe then add in a race of divine beings into it and run them into creating a perfect society with fair harmony and justice, be it to curing children with AIDs in africa to people's own individiual financial issues. THEN I'll see you critisise God, that will be a pretty interesting discussion.



Angels? You want him to create Angels. Yeah, they don't do anything either, except make schnizo's even more paranoid.


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## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

Why does God want you to pray to him constantly? Does he require some kind of validation as a deity, does he go "OH BOY SOMEONE'S PAYING ATTENTION TO ME! YAY!"?

Why would you need to "talk with him"? He already KNOWS what your problems are, he knows the solution, he supposedly has the power to fix anything and everything in the world.  He can hear everyone all the time, see everywhere all the time, exert his will anywhere anytime.  If he was going to do something he would have done it long before you opened your mouth.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Why does God want you to pray to him constantly? Does he require some kind of validation as a deity, does he go "OH BOY SOMEONE'S PAYING ATTENTION TO ME! YAY!"?
> 
> Why would you need to "talk with him"? He already KNOWS what your problems are, he knows the solution, he supposedly has the power to fix anything and everything in the world.  He can hear everyone all the time, see everywhere all the time, exert his will anywhere anytime.  If he was going to do something he would have done it long before you opened your mouth.
> 
> "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


Sweet, sweet Epicurus.


----------



## blackfuredfox (Aug 3, 2009)

okay, this seems a place to ask this, what would happen if i sold my soul to satan, to spend forever in heaven?


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> 'S cool. We'll just be over here advancing the architecture and materials that you guys will use to build more altars; don't wait up. :awesome:


 You seem to be suffering from the misconception that science and religion are opposites.
When really, science and religion are like yellow and fast.

Lulz @ you ppl
Religion is over 5,000 years old. You are powerless to stop it.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> okay, this seems a place to ask this, what would happen if i sold my soul to satan, to spend forever in heaven?



People would look at you funny, and after you died you'd be worm food like the rest of us :V


----------



## Tewin Follow (Aug 3, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> okay, this seems a place to ask this, what would happen if i sold my soul to satan, to spend forever in heaven?


 
This is an awesome question.


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Ah, resorting to sexist slurs? *Classy.* Even so, a caring God he cannot be. If he was ALL POWERFUL, as purported many times in the bible, then this farce of a science project wouldn't have even happened. Though, if I were God, and had to build a society, I wouldn't tell my creation about myself at all. That removes any and all possible controls from the experiment. I'd just sit back and watch, and probably laugh, as God is doing if he exists at all.


_You_... saying _that_.
Too funny...


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> You seem to be suffering from the misconception that science and religion are opposites.
> When really, science and religion are like yellow and fast.
> 
> Lulz @ you ppl
> Religion is over 5,000 years old. You are powerless to stop it.


LOL.  Red is commonly the color associated with fast.  And I really couldn't think of anything more opposite than science and religion. Except maybe you and logic.  Like your gem in this post, that, simply due to the age of something, it is unstoppable.  Can you tell me, how many dead religions are there?



Eerie Silverfox said:


> _You_... sayiny _that_.
> Too funny...


You not getting over it is even funnier.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> _You_... sayiny _that_.
> Too funny...



He's a damn sight more classy than you'll ever be.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Lulz @ you ppl
> Religion is over 5,000 years old. You are powerless to stop it.


 
Time'll take care of it for us eventually.

What the heck happened to the Ancient Eygptians and their gods? They were on *top*. 
You can see the incredible buildings and all within them yourself.


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> *1*LOL. Red is commonly the color associated with fast. *2*And I really couldn't think of anything more opposite than science and religion. Except maybe you and logic. *3*Like your gem in this post, that, simply due to the age of something, it is unstoppable. *4*Can you tell me, how many dead religions are there?


*1*You completely missed the point (see 2)
*2*Because you think bad
*3*No. Typically, it strengthens validity
*4*This one would take too long to explain and you're not worth it


----------



## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> *1*You completely missed the point (see 2)
> *2*Because you think bad
> *3*No. Typically, it strengthens validity
> *4*This one would take too long to explain and you're not worth it



2: And I suppose you think you think gooder than him?
4: In other words, you know you've just lost but you refuse to admit it.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> I'd just sit back and watch, and probably laugh, as God is doing if he exists at all.



That is what I think God is doing now, since we have technology and hospitals and shit like that, we aren't dependent on God as much anymore, which means that God gets more breaks from work than usual 

However, that doesn't mean that we won't need God in the future.



Get-dancing said:


> Let's see you then fag, build you're own universe then add in a race of divine beings into it and run them into creating a perfect society with fair harmony and justice, be it to curing children with AIDs in africa to people's own individiual financial issues. THEN I'll see you critisise God, that will be a pretty interesting discussion.



Dancing, no need to be harsh, Azure clearly doesn't believe in God, and there is nothing that you can say to him that would change his view on it.

However, that doesn't stop us from having a good debate about it, eh?



AzurePhoenix said:


> Still as infallible, predictable, and practical as ever. How's the Second Coming going?  I heard from a friend that Jesus is gonna be waaaaaaaaaaay late, he's crashing a party at Vishnus place.



Hehe, thanks for the laugh 



AzurePhoenix said:


> So tell me, what does faith in God help?



Well, it makes me feel assured that eventually sometime my problem would be solved sometime in the future. Basicly, it makes me feel more confident. Weather or not you believe in God, praying would always help. Hell, I experienced a few miracles myself, and so did a lot of other members in my family.

Honestly, I believe praying helps if you truly believe in God, but meh, whether or not God actually helps, it still helps you psychologically.



AzurePhoenix said:


> People who use the words "rely on God" strike me as pretty much the least useful of human beings.


 
Well, as a Catholic, I don't go around asking people to rely on God if they ask me for help. I would gladly assist them. I honestly think it would be disrespectful or lazy if you told someone to rely on God if they asked you for help, and you could actually do something about the problem.



AzurePhoenix said:


> Why not rely on yourself, or another, tangible being?


 
I do, but a little prayer once in a while wouldn't hurt.



AzurePhoenix said:


> Didn't GOD give you all of these wonderful things, like a brain, oppose able thumbs, an advanced endocrine system, and everything that is wondrous about the human body and psyche?


 
Yup, but again, a little faith and prayer once and a while wouldn't hurt.



AzurePhoenix said:


> Shit, we forged an incredible civilization, all with our own hands and minds, and you want to PRAY?


 
Pretty much 



AzurePhoenix said:


> God doesn't have solutions, HE HAS MIRACLES!


 
This is true, and those miracles are a solution to problems.



AzurePhoenix said:


> I'm going to pray to a being that doesn't exist, to solve a problem I could remedy down at the local Urgent Care Clinic, or the nearest hospital. Unless it's a problem within their lifestyle, and even then, I doubt any caring, intelligent god would bother with it, because he'd be in incredible pain to see his creation collapse in on itself through its own stupidity.


 
I always go to the Doctor to cure infections/diseases and whatnot, not every Catholic refuses to go to the Doctor just because it seems to put the "Doctor before God."


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> He's a damn sight more classy than you'll ever be.


 You and he are vulgar urchins. Nothing could be lower than either of you.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> _You_... saying _that_.
> Too funny...



Oh no, Eerie joined in on the thread.

Drama at 2:00 -.-


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> You seem to be suffering from the misconception that science and religion are opposites.
> When really, science and religion are like yellow and fast.
> 
> Lulz @ you ppl
> Religion is over 5,000 years old. You are powerless to stop it.



Powerless to stop time? Yes.

Powerless to stop religion? Yes.

Increase in Atheists over the last few years? Yes.

Lowered expectation and importance of religion in religious/spiritual peoples lives? Yes.

You don't have to stop the force itself, you just have to educate the masses driving it, and let them decide. 


Once the people 60-65 and up die out, you will most likely see a noticeable drop in religious people. :3


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> 2: And I suppose you think you think gooder than him?
> 4: In other words, you know you've just lost but you refuse to admit it.


*2 *yes I does think gooder
*4 *Nope. No hidden message or anything. Just as it says.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> You and he are vulgar urchins. Nothing could be lower than either of you.



Using fancy words, huh?! OH YEAH?! WELL YOU'RE A POOPYHEAD AND YOU SMELL LIKE MOLDY CORN CHIPS!



Eerie Silverfox said:


> *2 *yes I does think gooder
> *4 *Nope. No hidden message or anything. Just as it says.



2: Nuh-uh.
4: In other words, you've lost and you're so clueless you don't realize it.  Ah, OK, that makes more sense.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> You not getting over it is even funnier.



I know, this kid even told me that he was, "well over 21."

Haha, Fat chance.


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Powerless to stop time? Yes.
> 
> Powerless to stop religion? Yes.
> 
> ...


 I already know all this. You really are not as special as you think.


----------



## LizardKing (Aug 3, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> etc



I pray for your death every night.

Hasn't helped me, either :[


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> You and he are vulgar urchins. Nothing could be lower than either of you.



We all know you are just purposely looking up big words in the dictionary to make yourself sound smarter.

And guess what? It isn't working.


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> *1*You completely missed the point (see 2)
> *2*Because you think bad
> *3*No. Typically, it strengthens validity
> *4*This one would take too long to explain and you're not worth it


Man oh man, what the hell.

1. You completely fucked up an analogy, that was my point.
2. LOL
3. So if mankind believed that the moon was made of cheese for 5,000 years, you're saying it would have VALIDITY?
4. Standard beg off due to lack of debate skills and topic knowledge.

Darkwing, I'll respond to your post later, I have to go to PT for about an hour, and eat dinner, but I'll be back and give you a quality response, since you actually though out what you wrote.


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Using fancy words, huh?! OH YEAH?! WELL YOU'RE A POOPYHEAD AND YOU SMELL LIKE MOLDY CORN CHIPS!


 They really are not fancy. Your just an idiot.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> They really are not fancy. Your just an idiot.



Says the idiot who mistakenly said "your" instead of "you're".  :V


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> I already know all this. You really are not as special as you think.



Oh goody, I thought I was responding to some delusional guy that helps himself become more confident by praying to God, rather than growing some balls, and depending on himself :V


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> Time'll take care of it for us eventually.
> 
> What the heck happened to the Ancient Eygptians and their gods? They were on *top*.
> You can see the incredible buildings and all within them yourself.



The Romans happened.

And then, Christianity happened to the Romans.

But its not so much that the religions died out.  People _still _worship the old gods of Egypt, just not in the numbers that were there before.  

Empires rise, peak, and fall all throughout history, regardless of who or what they worship.  The same thing that happened to Egypt and Rome will, and probably already is, happening to America.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Says the idiot who mistakenly said "your" instead of "you're".  :V



Yeah, this kid has a lot of grammar errors in his posts, and he calls us stupid.

Oh the irony.


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Man oh man, what the hell.
> 
> 3. So if mankind believed that the moon was made of cheese for 5,000 years, you're saying it would have VALIDITY?


 Yes. Not making it true mind you. Simply that it would have more "VALIDTY".


----------



## Timitei (Aug 3, 2009)

The prayer wasn't what caused those deaths.
It was the people who were retarded enough to expect magical instant results by simply PRAYING would help them. As Rai_Toku said... God's not going to do anything for you if you won't get off your ass and put in some effort.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Yes. Not making it true mind you. Simply that it would have more *"VALIDTY".*



Validty?

Wow, Eerie, I never ever met anyone else in the world more smart than you.

*Sarcasm*


----------



## LizardKing (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> VALIDITY





Eerie Silverfox said:


> VALIDTY



One of these is correct.

Edit: FUCK YOU DARKWING MY CONNECTION SPAZZED THAT WAS MINE

MINE I SAY

I WOULD'VE HAD THAT

>:[


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> You and he are vulgar urchins. Nothing could be lower than either of you.


 Nothing is above them, or below them... Actually, above them is molecules & energies, whilst below them are molecules & energies...

But I don't see any god around either of them, or as themselves...


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Says the idiot who mistakenly said "your" instead of "you're". :V


 Oh GOD a typo! Clearly what I'm saying is worng because of this!!!!


Lastdirewolf said:


> Oh goody, I thought I was responding to some delusional guy that helps himself become more confident by praying to God, rather than growing some balls, and depending on himself :V


 I can see how you thought that, You being an idiot and all.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Oh GOD a typo! Clearly what I'm saying is *worng* because of this!!!!
> 
> I can see how you thought that, *You being an idiot and all.*



Ahahahah!

Wow, keep the drama and irony going Eerie! This is some good stuff!


----------



## Tycho (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Yes. Not making it true mind you. Simply that it would have more "VALIDTY".



You keep trying to use the word VALIDITY.

I do not think it means what you seem to think it means.



Eerie Silverfox said:


> Oh GOD a typo! Clearly what I'm saying is worng because of this!!!!



Oh no, it just means you're an idiot.

But what you've been saying is wrong.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Oh GOD a typo! Clearly what I'm saying is worng because of this!!!!
> 
> I can see how you thought that, You being an idiot and all.


 
It is you poisoning the well for yourself...

Also, haven't you said before that you are autistic, or suffering from an ASD? That can cause quite a few dellusions and misconceptions...


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> You keep trying to use the word VALIDITY.



Duh, because he is trying to look smart, let him humiliate himself, it entertains us.



Tycho said:


> I do not think it means what you seem to think it means.



Read the above.


----------



## Eerie Silverfox (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> You keep trying to use the word VALIDITY.
> 
> I do not think it means what you seem to think it means.


 Like I said: It's because you think bad.

Anyway I'm leaving now. Remember: you fail.


----------



## LizardKing (Aug 3, 2009)

brb guyz, the chinese just landed

*loads ak*


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> Also, haven't you said before that you are autistic, or suffering from an ASD? That can cause quite a few dellusions and misconceptions...



No, no, he cured it with his super emo sparkly vampire powers, now he is smarter than all of us and we are all delinquents to him because of his sparkle-faggotry.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Like I said: It's because you think bad.
> 
> Anyway I'm leaving now. Remember: you fail.



Yes, Eerie, run from the battle you coward!

You are obviously cornered and are fleeing from the battle because you are making yourself look like a dumbass.

But you did that enough anyway, so what does it matter.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> I can see how you thought that, You being an idiot and all.



How grammatically correct, and God-following of you.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

LizardKing said:


> brb guyz, the chinese just landed
> 
> *loads bbgun*


 
fix'd for your geographic loacation and political jurisdiction


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Lulz @ you ppl
> Religion is over 5,000 years old. You are powerless to stop it.



Right. Because there aren't ANY dead religions, right? No, not at all.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Right. Because there aren't ANY dead religions, right? No, not at all.



No, he actually meant religion in general.

But he still sounds like a dumbass.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Right. Because there aren't ANY dead religions, right? No, not at all.


 
Eerie is watching this thread, and is thinking up some witty retort to every argument he doesn't like on here...

None of us are objectively wrong or right...
But some of us have less error than others... But subjectivity eliminates any justification we may need for our perceptions, other than that "Its how I perceived it."


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> Eerie is watching this thread, and is thinking up some witty retort to every argument he doesn't like on here...



Didn't Eerie say that he left the thread?

Oh wait, he won't! He just wants to make more of an ass of himself.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> And I really couldn't think of anything more opposite than science and religion.


 
What about science and agnosticism? Or better yet, physics.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 3, 2009)

Science and religion are completely incompatible, if not diametrically opposed.  Religion operates on faith, belief in spite of contrary evidence, while science is powered by doubt and skepticism of everything until the evidence is too strong to deny.


----------



## Surgat (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> Like I said: It's because you think bad.
> 
> Anyway I'm leaving now. Remember: you fail.



No, you really don't know what "validity" means. 

"Valid" means ether that an argument is constructed so that if the premises are true the conclusion must be true. It doesn't describe beliefs.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/v/val-snd.htm

In law, the term describes something that is still good law. Beliefs are not laws.
http://www.answers.com/topic/valid (scroll down till you find it)


Some of the more colloquial definitions have it as describing something as "trustworthy." If that's what you meant, you are in no position to tell other people that they "think bad." 

People held all sorts of incorrect beliefs for thousands of years. They thought that the Earth was flat, that the Earth was the center of the universe, that slavery was fine, that sickness was caused by demons, or by an imbalance of humors, that there were four elements that made up everything, that a king's level of virtue and vice determined weather patterns, that capricious deities control natural forces, etc. The age of a belief absolutely does not equate to reliability.


----------



## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> You and he are vulgar urchins. Nothing could be lower than either of you.



Your most recent favorite is entitled "Over the Hedge - Heather & her Dad", and it's a porn picture.


----------



## Bacu (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"



Flawed argument is flawed.



Lobar said:


> Science and religion are completely incompatible, if not diametrically opposed. Religion operates on faith, belief in spite of contrary evidence, while science is powered by doubt and skepticism of everything until the evidence is too strong to deny.



Also, no. Religion never claimed to be a guide to the machinations of the universe. It's spiritual. Science and Religion aren't contradictory. They cover different topics.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Eerie Silverfox*
> _You and he are vulgar urchins. Nothing could be lower than either of you._





Aden said:


> Your most recent favorite is entitled "Over the Hedge - Heather & her Dad", and it's a porn picture.




*ROFL*


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> No, he actually meant religion in general.



I understand that, but he's saying that because it is old, it can't be stopped or changed. There are religions older than the popular ones now that are, guess what, dead.

Being old does not mean anything. It just means people are stupid enough to believe what they say for that long.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> I understand that, but he's saying that because it is old, it can't be stopped or changed. There are religions older than the popular ones now that are, guess what, dead.
> 
> Being old does not mean anything. It just means people are stupid enough to believe what they say for that long.



But not ALL religions that are old are dead.  

_Hinduism is known as the Oldest Living Religion at 3000 years old_
Judaism and Buddhism are cited to be 2500 years old 
Christianity became a dominant religion 1600 years ago.

Faiths based on Shamanic beliefs cannot be construed as religious, per-say, as most times they differed in practise from tribe to tribe.  

The thing about saying that people are stupid enough to believe religions for that long of a period is grouping in a _hell_ of a lot of people together.  A lot of brilliant minds were also part of a religion.   While Einstein was not a practicing Jew for most of his life, he identified strongly with the beliefs and culture to where it can be said that he was a _non-traditionalist Jew_.  Issac Newton was part of a heretical branch of Christianity known as Socinianism.


----------



## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

I like you :3 <3....We think alike and yeah Prayer can be useless...if your not using the right conjuring words ;3 however using prayer with real conjuring words can really pose a threat to both yourself and those around you, its a very complex that can result in killing you as well...which is why humanity doesn't try the practice of true conjuring spells...to powerful and deadly...but its fun to try mess with Black Magic anyways <3


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

Bacu said:


> Also, no. Religion never claimed to be a guide to the machinations of the universe. It's spiritual. Science and Religion aren't contradictory. They cover different topics.


No, religion claims to be the end arbiter of all disputes pertaining to this earth. Why is the sky blue?  God.  Why is the grass green?  God. Science has other things to say about this topic, such as the Electromagnetic Spectrum, and Photosynthesis. God is invalidated by science, according both to the timeline of the Bible, and basic physics.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> I like you :3 <3....We think alike and yeah Prayer can be useless...if your not using the right conjuring words ;3 however using prayer with real conjuring words can really pose a threat to both yourself and those around you, its a very complex that can result in killing you as well...which is why humanity doesn't try the practice of true conjuring spells...to powerful and deadly...*but its fun to try mess with Black Magic anyways* <3



Thanks! :3

*S* You know, prayer isn't always about conjuration and spells.  It's about intent, and that's the point a lot of people in this thread are missing here.   It's not always about getting god to do what you want.  Sometimes its all about sending out your will.  Energy has a lot of kick to it when the will is there.  I don't mind if christians pray for me, because they are sending their will out to help me, and it's nice to know that I'm being thought about :3

On the other hand, there are christians out there (Third Movement) that actively pray for harm to come to others, and that is too similar to cursing for my liking.

As for messing around with black magick, EEeeee...I hope you're just kidding.  There's too much of a chance having shit going wrong.  Last thing I need in my life is something that I played with hanging around.  I've heard too many horror stories from people who summoned something they couldn't send back.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> No, religion claims to be the end arbiter of all disputes pertaining to this earth. Why is the sky blue?  God.  Why is the grass green?  God. Science has other things to say about this topic, such as the Electromagnetic Spectrum, and Photosynthesis. God is invalidated by science, according both to the timeline of the Bible, and basic physics.



*feels like she's on repeat*  Not ALL religions claim to be the be-all, end-all explanation.  Not everyone tosses reason out the window just because they believe in a higher power.

Is it just easier to focus on Christianity as an example in this thread?  Even as a devout christian in my youth, i knew why the sky was blue.  Refraction of light particles in the atmosphere.   Grass is green because through trial and error in earth's history the colour gives the plant the best advantage for photosynthesis.

Even now as a pagan I don't toss away scientific facts.


----------



## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Thanks! :3
> 
> *S* You know, prayer isn't always about conjuration and spells.  It's about intent, and that's the point a lot of people in this thread are missing here.   It's not always about getting god to do what you want.  Sometimes its all about sending out your will.  Energy has a lot of kick to it when the will is there.  I don't mind if christians pray for me, because they are sending their will out to help me, and it's nice to know that I'm being thought about :3
> 
> ...



Yes Christians have a very exquisite Aura specially when they pray, they open up their chakra gates and let the energy flow out so bright and warm that it forms a bold shield to prevent weak wandering spirits from feasting on their pitty souls and ending them painlessly and then you watch that chakra just FLOW out into the wind and get absorbed by nature itself or anyone nearby with a receptive flow and absorb a part of that 'gentle' will which sometimes can have their karma turn and pit a bit of luck on their side.

Its a shame not most know how to properly control this channel flow of their chakra, most of the times i just see it out there flow and scatter like blood out of roadkill rather than form a single perfect channel flow directly to whoever it is meant to, if they knew how to do that, then maybe their prayers would have more meaning, but to me. Prayer flow is my PREY....sweet sweet delicious chakra, maybe this is why people had a kick killing Christians back in the darker days...

They make such perfect sacrifices....


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> *feels like she's on repeat*  Not ALL religions claim to be the be-all, end-all explanation.  Not everyone tosses reason out the window just because they believe in a higher power.
> 
> Is it just easier to focus on Christianity as an example in this thread?  Even as a devout christian in my youth, i knew why the sky was blue.  Refraction of light particles in the atmosphere.   Grass is green because through trial and error in earth's history the colour gives the plant the best advantage for photosynthesis.
> 
> Even now as a pagan I don't toss away scientific facts.


If they were using reason, they wouldn't subscribe to religion. And the intent of something is not the end action. It is just that, intent, a latent desire for something.  I don't care about intent, I care about practice, and in reality, the practice of religion creates a hell of a lot more bad things than somebodys intent to fool themselves into thinking that man is a divine important being and sole ruler of the bloody universe. Better off without that with, is what it boils down too.  We've already had that long conversation about false hope, so lets not repeat that one as well.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Cyber panda
*blink*

Wow....that's...kinda nasty.  I gotta be honest here, even if you are kidding, that's pretty offensive.  I know quite a few people who are christian, most of them are family.  Feasting on anyone's energy...not cool.  Joking about killing christians to me is just as deplorable as joking about burning a witch at the stake.  

So...I think I'll stick to coffee for my morning kick. *S*


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> If they were using reason, they wouldn't subscribe to religion. And the intent of something is not the end action. It is just that, intent, a latent desire for something.  I don't care about intent, I care about practice, and in reality, the practice of religion creates a hell of a lot more bad things than somebodys intent to fool themselves into thinking that man is a divine important being and sole ruler of the bloody universe. Better off without that with, is what it boils down too.  We've already had that long conversation about false hope, so lets not repeat that one as well.



Getting back to intent, that's pretty much what this thread is talking about: death through inaction.

You just brought this debate around full circle.   *S*  Thank you.

But why insist that if you have intent you can't also have action?  Intent can also _drive _someone into action.  If someone prays for a job, they can't just sit on their ass and wait to have one fall in their lap.  They have to do the footwork.  Someone who has cancer still has to go for treatment, but they can also pray for healing.

And if these prayers aren't answered, then it's not meant to be.  If we all got our way the world would be chaos.


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Cyber panda
> *blink*
> 
> Wow....that's...kinda nasty.  I gotta be honest here, even if you are kidding, that's pretty offensive.  I know quite a few people who are christian, most of them are family.  Feasting on anyone's energy...not cool.  Joking about killing christians to me is just as deplorable as joking about burning a witch at the stake.
> ...


I was speaking of reforming their ideology, not burning them at the stake. I really don't see where you got that from.


----------



## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

Well i suppose i was a little to much for your pacifists ways but no worries i as harmless as a 5 year old on a tauntrum...i don't like soiling my hands at all with the shame most people carry i just like speaking my mind most of the time, as for feasting Chakra of people, that is another harmless thing there >> Can't possible scratch anyone by just taking a tini portion of their persona >> its like a damn mosquito bite, specially when you feast on from 100 people it makes enough to keep a person alive without food for days and it wont really affect no one, hell you can even do the same with nature.

And as for killing christians, Well that is a fact and thats something that happened off biblical proportions and not that i take a joy in ever taking the life of a mortal its just not my thing...maybe just probably beating someone half to death but never taking a life, i stand in protecting the weak and innocent, i am a sage living in the modern era after all.

I Share the knowledge of a 1000suns back.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> I was speaking of reforming their ideology, not burning them at the stake. I really don't see where you got that from.



that was for someone else...sorry for the confusion. *S*


----------



## Azure (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Getting back to intent, that's pretty much what this thread is talking about: death through inaction.
> 
> You just brought this debate around full circle.   *S*  Thank you.
> 
> ...


Then what is the point of prayers? There doesn't seem to be any, beyond that which we discussed before, which is false motivation and hope.  But you can't hope somebody better, which is what this thread is addressing. If somebody prays to God for a job, and the goes out and gets one, there is no reasonable test you could perform to say that that prayer had any affect on the outcome.  Well, you'd say what's the harm.  In the prayer itself, there is none, but in the ideology that comes with it, and the practices that subscribe to it's name, there are many things wrong with those.

All I'm trying to illustrate is that it's not needed.  Mankind is a bit grown up for invisible pals.  Especially when he asks his invisible pal to fix his other friends.

EDIT-  I saw it, but it was too late.  Understood.  Culling people isn't the answer, unless it's those CRAZY MUSLIM EXTREMISTS.  You just can't bring the light to some people.


----------



## moonchylde (Aug 3, 2009)

oh hey guys what's going on in --

*looks around*

*runs away screaming*


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Well i suppose i was a little to much for your pacifists ways but no worries i as harmless as a 5 year old on a tauntrum...i don't like soiling my hands at all with the shame most people carry i just like speaking my mind most of the time, as for feasting Chakra of people, that is another harmless thing there >> Can't possible scratch anyone by just taking a tini portion of their persona >> its like a damn mosquito bite, specially when you feast on from 100 people it makes enough to keep a person alive without food for days and it wont really affect no one, hell you can even do the same with nature.
> 
> And as for killing christians, Well that is a fact and thats something that happened off biblical proportions and not that i take a joy in ever taking the life of a mortal its just not my thing...maybe just probably beating someone half to death but never taking a life, i stand in protecting the weak and innocent, i am a sage living in the modern era after all.
> 
> I Share the knowledge of a 1000suns back.



Ahh...your previous post was making me think otherwise.  Thanks for clearing that up for me *S*.

I am a bit of a pacifist (though I swear enough to put hair on a sailor's chest ), but it stems from watching humans beat on each other because of differentiating points of views.  But I once had an IRL friend who did the same as you...feed off energy.  but it was this... 





> Prayer flow is my PREY....sweet sweet delicious chakra, maybe this is why people had a kick killing Christians back in the darker days...
> 
> They make such perfect sacrifices....


 that kinda had me wondering what your practises were.


----------



## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Well i suppose i was a little to much for your pacifists ways but no worries i as harmless as a 5 year old on a tauntrum...i don't like soiling my hands at all with the shame most people carry i just like speaking my mind most of the time, as for feasting Chakra of people, that is another harmless thing there >> Can't possible scratch anyone by just taking a tini portion of their persona >> its like a damn mosquito bite, specially when you feast on from 100 people it makes enough to keep a person alive without food for days and it wont really affect no one, hell you can even do the same with nature.



This is not an in-character forum.


----------



## Ishnuvalok (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> This is not an in-character forum.



Nono, he's just stupid. Trust me.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> Your most recent favorite is entitled "Over the Hedge - Heather & her Dad", and it's a porn picture.



You think that is bad? Look at Eerie's art gallery.

http://us.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Father-Silverfox/index01-by-date.html

Note all of the badly drawn and sick porn he has on there.

EDIT: One of them depicts bestiality, it is on the first page, it is titled, "Wild Snog Sex". Yeah, it is sick.

EDIT: A few of them depict bestiality, and Sonic Porn.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Then what is the point of prayers? There doesn't seem to be any, beyond that which we discussed before, which is false motivation and hope.  But you can't hope somebody better, which is what this thread is addressing. If somebody prays to God for a job, and the goes out and gets one, there is no reasonable test you could perform to say that that prayer had any affect on the outcome.  Well, you'd say what's the harm.  In the prayer itself, there is none, but in the ideology that comes with it, and the practices that subscribe to it's name, there are many things wrong with those.
> 
> All I'm trying to illustrate is that it's not needed.  Mankind is a bit grown up for invisible pals.  Especially when he asks his invisible pal to fix his other friends.
> 
> EDIT-  I saw it, but it was too late.  Understood.  Culling people isn't the answer, unless it's those CRAZY MUSLIM EXTREMISTS.  You just can't bring the light to some people.



^ Ahh...gotcha 

Hope and prayer aren't the same thing.  You can hope and not call on a higher power to heal the sick.  It's a matter of faith.  

And it's true that you can't possibly test that god intervened and helped you land that job you needed....but you can't _not_ prove it, either.   As for the ideology and the practises that come with prayer, well...all I can say is prayer is the outcome of belief in the truly religious.   It's an act of humility.  Instead of believing that you can solve all problems on your own, you're admitting that you are indeed mortal, and human...and that there are some things that are beyond your control.  It also requires patience and understanding, as not all prayers are answered quickly, and some are not answered at all.

It's too easy to say that prayer doesn't work when things don't go the way we want  them to...or to say that prayer had nothing to do with healing the ill...that it was science.

I think human beings will lose an inherant part of themselves if they give up religion completely.  For if we do that, then what is the purpose of the soul?


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## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

(deleted by user)


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## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Ahh...your previous post was making me think otherwise.  Thanks for clearing that up for me *S*.
> 
> I am a bit of a pacifist (though I swear enough to put hair on a sailor's chest ), but it stems from watching humans beat on each other because of differentiating points of views.  But I once had an IRL friend who did the same as you...feed off energy.  but it was this...  that kinda had me wondering what your practises were.



lol I am a neutral party here after all so just because i said "Perfect Sacrifices" i did not state "I enjoy killing and feeding off their chakra till their dead" >> theres no way in hell i can ever sink that low because then it would be tempting and with that much power can drive a person wild and driven to greed and desires >> to me is always a tiny insignificant portion that will be enough to keep me focus, i see it more as an energy shot, i still Eat Food and drink fluids, the Chakra absorbing part is to keep me in touch with my spirited, and nature side, (keeping my other 5 Senses alive)


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## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> I like you :3 <3....We think alike and yeah Prayer can be useless...if your not using the right conjuring words ;3 however using prayer with real conjuring words can really pose a threat to both yourself and those around you, its a very complex that can result in killing you as well...which is why humanity doesn't try the practice of true conjuring spells...to powerful and deadly...but its fun to try mess with Black Magic anyways <3





> Age
> 23



Please be lying about your age. Aren't you a little old to still be believing in "magic"?

Also, humanity doesn't "try conjuring spells" because "magic" doesn't exist.


----------



## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

Ishnuvalok said:


> Nono, he's just stupid. Trust me.



Who says i was ever in character you ignorant imbeciles....


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## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Please be lying about your age. Aren't you a little old to still be believing in "magic"?
> 
> Also, humanity doesn't "try conjuring spells" because "magic" doesn't exist.



>Location: Orlando, FL<

>> Figures...guess the only thing you believe is rotting your eyes behind a fucking screen playing online with a bunch of idiots you never seen face to face at all is your way of "existing" then your pathetic.


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Who says i was ever in character you ignorant imbeciles....



Because you're talking about "casting spells" and "magic".

Also, resorting STRAIGHT to insults as soon as anyone doesn't give you praise... well, lets just say, I don't think we're the ignorant ones.



> >Location: Orlando, FL<
> 
> >> Figures...guess the only thing you believe is rotting your eyes behind a fucking screen playing online with a bunch of idiots you never seen face to face at all is your way of "existing" then your pathetic.



LMAO

What the fuck are you talking about? What does me living in Orlando have to do with anything? Who says I'm rotting my eyes behind a screen? You know _nothing_ about me IRL.

You are _INCREDIBLY_ defensive. Why is that?


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Please be lying about your age. Aren't you a little old to still be believing in "magic"?
> 
> Also, humanity doesn't "try conjuring spells" because "magic" doesn't exist.



Mmm...that's the same as saying that god doesn't exist and prayer doesn't work.  I'm 30 and I believe there is magick.  I've worked with it.  It's essentially prayer with a bit more flourish.


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## Kaamos (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Also, humanity doesn't "try conjuring spells" because "magic" doesn't exist.



FUCK YOU I'M A 20TH LEVEL WIZARD.


----------



## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Because you're talking about "casting spells" and "magic".
> 
> Also, resorting STRAIGHT to insults as soon as anyone doesn't give you praise... well, lets just say, I don't think we're the ignorant ones.
> 
> ...



You waste my time, you also waste precious Space off FA with your blank useraccount...just stay out of my way...no one invited you to crash my conversation i was having with "Somebody" else...go bug others cuz im out PEACE!


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## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Mmm...that's the same as saying that god doesn't exist and prayer doesn't work.



Because they don't.



> I'm 30 and I believe there is magick.



I'm sorry.



> I've worked with it.  It's essentially prayer with a bit more flourish.



And just like prayer, it doesn't work. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't exist.



> You waste my time, you also waste precious Space off FA with your blank useraccount...just stay out of my way...no one invited you to crash my conversation i was having with "Somebody" else...go bug others cuz im out PEACE!



I waste your time because I don't agree with you? Also, my account on FA isn't blank. And no, nobody invited me, because you posted on a public forum where anyone can answer. Don't want other people talking? Go to PMs.

Also, LMAO at bailing from the conversation as soon as someone disagrees with you. Come on, show me some magic, if it exists. Why can't you do that? If you're so sure that it exists, prove it.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> lol I am a neutral party here after all so just because i said "Perfect Sacrifices" i did not state "I enjoy killing and feeding off their chakra till their dead" >> theres no way in hell i can ever sink that low because then it would be tempting and with that much power can drive a person wild and driven to greed and desires >> to me is always a tiny insignificant portion that will be enough to keep me focus, i see it more as an energy shot, i still Eat Food and drink fluids, the Chakra absorbing part is to keep me in touch with my spirited, and nature side, (keeping my other 5 Senses alive)



I see.  It was the implication of enjoyment that I got from the post.

Anyway...we're beating a dead horse here, and i know what you mean, so no worries *S*.  sorry for the misunderstanding.   I've never pulled energy from others, but i do employ reiki to keep me balanced, and I found that works quite well *S*.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Because they don't.
> 
> And just like prayer, it doesn't work. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't exist.



and that's exactly what I knew you would say.  :grin:

It's harder for people who don't believe in anything existing outside the realm of the five senses to believe in gods, or magick.  As much as Atheists are ridiculed and slammed for their ideals, so too are we who believe in faith are slammed for ours.  

It's not difficult for me to say that you're entitled to your oppinion, but for the other side to try to see it through the eyes of a spiritual human is not too much to ask, and would be a breath of fresh air.  You can't have understanding without common ground.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Kaamos said:


> FUCK YOU I'M A 20TH LEVEL WIZARD.



Oh yeah???  Well...I'm a 25th level dragon-mage and I carry the staff of downsizing and I'm going to bring you back down to N00b status!  Pew-Pew!

Gods I miss roleplaying *L*


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> It's harder for people who don't believe in anything existing outside the realm of the five senses to believe in gods, or magick.  As much as Atheists are ridiculed and slammed for their ideals, so too are we who believe in faith are slammed for ours.



Hey, woah, who said I don't believe in anything outside the five senses? I said I don't believe in _god._ That doesn't mean I don't believe in nothing ever, anywhere.



> It's not difficult for me to say that you're entitled to your oppinion, but for the other side to try to see it through the eyes of a spiritual human is not too much to ask, and would be a breath of fresh air.  You can't have understanding without common ground.



There is nothing to understand. As with religion and god, nobody can show me evidence that it works. I have yet to ever see proof from anyone that "magic" works. If you can show me, then great, I'll believe all day and night. Until then, it's bullshit I stopped believing in when I was 9.



> Gods I miss roleplaying *L*



You and I both. :v That's why I started LARPing, because DnD got boring. But NERO has basically boiled down to screaming "I GRANT YOU THE GIFT OF LIGHT, WITH MYSTIC FORCE I WEB YOU KILLING BLOW ONE KILLING BLOW TWO KILLING BLOW THREE" until my lungs bleed because fuck yeah, my class is awesome with overpowered spells and I don't need anything but those two.


----------



## cYbEr_PaNdA (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Mmm...that's the same as saying that god doesn't exist and prayer doesn't work.  I'm 30 and I believe there is magick.  I've worked with it.  It's essentially prayer with a bit more flourish.



Don't bother talking to them they don't know much, so like any ignorant, god fearing mortal they start to rant out the simple things in life like "ITS not true, doesnt exist, not real"...so yeah im out of here, see ya whenever.

OH and FYI: its Nihilists who don't believe in nothing lol, Atheists are rather an amusing breed of carefree beings.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Don't bother talking to them they don't know much, so like any ignorant, god fearing mortal they start to rant out the simple things in life like "ITS not true, doesnt exist, not real"...so yeah im out of here, see ya whenever.
> 
> OH and FYI: its Nihilists who don't believe in nothing lol, Atheists are rather an amusing breed of carefree beings.



Meh...I don't mind it much.  I don't want to win...just offer another viewpoint.  See ya round!


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Don't bother talking to them they don't know much



Again, show me it exists and I'll believe. But you can't - that's why you're running scared and calling me names. You can't prove anything, and you're scared.



> , so like any ignorant, god fearing mortal



I don't even believe in god, so how can I fear it? And lol at calling me mortal. You are too, buddy.



> they start to rant out the simple things in life like "ITS not true, doesnt exist, not real"



Those aren't "simple things", those are statements. And because it isn't true, it doesn't exist and it isn't real.

For like the third time, I'm open to being proven wrong. Just show me.



> ...so yeah im out of here, see ya whenever.



So, so typical. "Uh-oh, I'm spouting things about magic and/or some other weird religion type thing and someone is bringing up points that I can't refute! Better call them names and say something clever to cover my tracks like "im out of here"!"


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> There is nothing to understand. As with religion and god, nobody can show me evidence that it works.



Believing in God needs no evidence, it is all a matter of faith. Don't you ever bother to think, Baron, that, by the slightest possibility, that some supreme being such as God is looking over the world right now?

Think of it, someone, maybe something, had to create all of the galaxies and whatnot around the whole entire universe, so maybe you should consider that maybe God had something to be involved in it.

I mean, God could be anything, a Gas, an alien, a galaxy, a star, or some other intellectual or supreme being or object we don't know about.

Some things don't have to be proved by science, Baron. Think about that sometime


----------



## Bacu (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> No, religion claims to be the end arbiter of all disputes pertaining to this earth. Why is the sky blue?  God.  Why is the grass green?  God. Science has other things to say about this topic, such as the Electromagnetic Spectrum, and Photosynthesis. God is invalidated by science, according both to the timeline of the Bible, and basic physics.


Tell me, exactly _how _science has invalidated God?


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Hey, woah, who said I don't believe in anything outside the five senses? I said I don't believe in _god._ That doesn't mean I don't believe in nothing ever, anywhere.



Huh...interesting.  I'll have to remember that.  It's not often I come across someone who believes in the supernatural but doesn't believe in god. 

Then again, my favourite show happens to _be_ Superatural, where one of the main characters doesn't believe in god...so that just goes to show what I know *L*.



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> There is nothing to understand. As with religion and god, nobody can show me evidence that it works. I have yet to ever see proof from anyone that "magic" works. If you can show me, then great, I'll believe all day and night. Until then, it's bullshit I stopped believing in when I was 9.



I was like that for a while.  I needed proof, dammit!  But one of my favourite quotes goes like this:  Seeing isn't believeing, Believing is seeing.  sometimes you can't see it unless you believe it is there, otherwise you wouldn't know what to look for.  And not everything works this way.  I don't believe in santa clause, or the easter bunny, but i do know of their origins.  But I do believe there are things that cannot be explained by science (yet...or ever), and that's where religion steps in.

So...shall we agree that we disagree and stop flogging this dead horse? 



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> You and I both. :v That's why I started LARPing, because DnD got boring. But NERO has basically boiled down to screaming "I GRANT YOU THE GIFT OF LIGHT, WITH MYSTIC FORCE I WEB YOU KILLING BLOW ONE KILLING BLOW TWO KILLING BLOW THREE" until my lungs bleed because fuck yeah, my class is awesome with overpowered spells and I don't need anything but those two.



*LOL*  Oh yeah.  But you've never experienced larping until you've stumbled into a vampire: the masquerade rp.  I had friends that took me to one without telling me what it was.  I swear to god I thought I was going to be eaten that night.

Then I wanted to join *L*.


----------



## Kangamutt (Aug 3, 2009)

Lack of evidence =/= proof.

Agnostic Man, AWAY!!!! *whoosh*


----------



## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Who says i was ever in character you ignorant imbeciles....



Ah, just off your meds then.



CAThulu said:


> It's harder for people who don't believe in anything existing outside the realm of the five senses to believe in gods, or magick.  As much as Atheists are ridiculed and slammed for their ideals, so too are we who believe in faith are slammed for ours.



For me it's not so much "slamming people for their ideals" as it is "requesting imperical proof and, until that proof is delivered, being very skeptical".


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Believing in God needs no evidence, it is all a matter of faith.



And that is exactly why it's bullshit. Bible thumpers might need only someone to say "no really, it exists!" to believe, and that's great. I need evidence. I don't believe in something because other people tell me to. Show me proof, and I'll believe.



> Don't you ever bother to think, Baron, that, by the slightest possibility, that some supreme being such as God is looking over the world right now?



Bother to think? Sure. And it's that thinking that turned me into an atheist. By thinking about it, I learned that it's ridiculous to live your life thinking some magical space man is watching me.



> Think of it, someone, maybe something, had to create all of the galaxies and whatnot around the whole entire universe, so maybe you should consider that maybe God had something to be involved in it.



And this, right here, is exactly why religion works and gets people sucked in. People want to believe they have control over their lives, that they know everything, and so they fill in the holes they don't have an answer to with, you guessed it, religion.

Nobody knows how the universe was created. Yes, something created it, but I don't believe it was a god. We just don't know yet.



> I mean, God could be anything, a Gas, an alien, a galaxy, a star, or some other intellectual or supreme being or object we don't know about.



That's a cop out answer. If you say "god can be anything" then of course you're right. That's like me saying "dalmatians can be anything" - if you agree, I'm right, no matter how wrong I actually am.



> Some things don't have to be proved by science, Baron. Think about that sometime



To me, yes, everything has to be proven to believe in it. Otherwise, it's a theory or other such thing that isn't proven, and thus can't have anything based on it. Maybe _you_ don't need something to be proven to believe in it, but I do.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> For me it's not so much "slamming people for their ideals" as it is "requesting imperical proof and, until that proof is delivered, being very skeptical".



sadly,  I can't help you there.  It's hard to prove something over the net unless I'm citing essays and journals.  I don't even think there's a youtube vid that will give you the answer you need.  Especially when it comes to recreating an event in a lab based on prayer.  it's just cannot be done.

But some people when they are skeptical are very acidic in their comments, and that is unfortuante.  You can look back through this entire thread and see where people have called each other imbeciles and idiots for their viewpoints, whether for or against prayer, and that I can't understand.  Call me a hippie, but I don't see why it's so difficult to ask someone to look from the other side of the arguement for a change.  You learn so much about your own beliefs when you do.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 3, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> No, religion claims to be the end arbiter of all disputes pertaining to this earth. Why is the sky blue?  God.  Why is the grass green?  God. Science has other things to say about this topic, such as the *Electromagnetic Spectrum, and Photosynthesis.* God is invalidated by science, according both to the timeline of the Bible, and basic physics.



Tell me, Azure, what causes these Electromagnetic Spectrums and photosynthesis, obviously it would be the sun the causes that, but let's go deeper into it, what created the sun? Some hypothesize the big bang, what caused the big bang? The collapse of a tiny atom that held everything in the universe. Who caused that atom to exist? God. What caused God to exist? Some hypothesized that God created himself.

So answer me, in scientific terms, how the tiny atom that caused the big bang to exist.

Of course, some say that that atom just appeared there, but do you ever stop and think that maybe, by a slight chance, that God made that atom?


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Huh...interesting.  I'll have to remember that.  It's not often I come across someone who believes in the supernatural but doesn't believe in god.



I didn't say I believed in the supernatural either, just saying that assuming someone doesn't believe in _anything_ because they're an atheist is close-minded.



> Then again, my favourite show happens to _be_ Superatural, where one of the main characters doesn't believe in god...so that just goes to show what I know *L*.



Totally off topic but FUCK YES I _LOVE_ SUPERNATURAL.




> I was like that for a while.  I needed proof, dammit!  But one of my favourite quotes goes like this:  Seeing isn't believeing, Believing is seeing.  sometimes you can't see it unless you believe it is there, otherwise you wouldn't know what to look for.  And not everything works this way.  I don't believe in santa clause, or the easter bunny, but i do know of their origins.  But I do believe there are things that cannot be explained by science (yet...or ever), and that's where religion steps in.



Religion only steps in because of exactly what you said. Nobody has proof. That's the only reason it's even viable - people feel a _need_ to fill that hole in their brains from not knowing where the world came from.



> So...shall we agree that we disagree and stop flogging this dead horse?



I don't mind, honestly. I enjoy talking about this kind of thing, and believe me, I respect other peoples opinions. But when you act like cyber-panda or whatever and start calling names when someone disagrees with you, then yeah, I'm going to start making fun. (Not saying that you are, just saying that's why I was hostile earlier.)




> *LOL*  Oh yeah.  But you've never experienced larping until you've stumbled into a vampire: the masquerade rp.  I had friends that took me to one without telling me what it was.  I swear to god I thought I was going to be eaten that night.
> 
> Then I wanted to join *L*.



Oh, I want to try V:TM very badly, but there aren't any chapters here in FL.

EDIT: Also, I'm enjoying this a lot. You're giving me a run for my money, I'll admit. You're good at your side, here.


----------



## moonchylde (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> For me it's not so much "slamming people for their ideals" as it is "requesting imperical proof and, until that proof is delivered, being very skeptical".



For the true believer, no proof is necessary; for the true skeptic, no proof will suffice.

Otherwise we wouldn't have terms like "mass hysteria"... personally, I just believe (yep, there's THAT word again) that there are many, many things that cannot be recreated in a lab, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I base my beliefs, particularly when it comes to religion and the supernatural, on personal experience, which, of course, means nothing to those who haven't had the same experiences themselves. But... it's enough for me. 

FYI, I hate the term "supernatural". Nothing is outside the natural; we just haven't figured out how most of it works yet. 

Seriously, if science  had all the answers, then why do we still need science? To prove the same thing over and over again, in an attempt to fight off the feelings that come from being a tiny human in a really fucking huge universe? Honestly, the biggest difference, to me personally, between science and religion is the cleanliness of their "temples".


----------



## Ishnuvalok (Aug 3, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> The collapse of a tiny atom that held everything in the universe. Who caused that atom to exist? God.



The Big Bang Theory does not state that an atom collapsed. The big bang is when everything was concentrated into one point with near infinite density. Then exploded. 

Saying "What caused the atom (or in this case, the entire universe in one point) to exist? God." Irks me a lot.

It's a problem I have with monotheistic religions. They're all "Oh if you don't know, then obviously God made it" As if god is the only alternative to not knowing? Can't you just say "I don't know"? Is it bad to not know something and strive to find out? This is what kept the Catholic Church in power for such a long time.


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

Ishnuvalok said:


> It's a problem I have with monotheistic religions. They're all "Oh if you don't know, then obviously God made it" As if god is the only alternative to not knowing? Can't you just say "I don't know"?



THIS. What the fuck. Why can't people just say "I don't know"? That's what I do. I don't claim to know how the world began, but I don't think it was god because that's just silly, IMO.


----------



## moonchylde (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> THIS. What the fuck. Why can't people just say "I don't know"? That's what I do. I don't claim to know how the world began, but I don't think it was god because that's just silly, IMO.



Just ask them who made God. That usually shuts em' up.


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Believing in God needs no evidence, it is all a matter of faith. Don't you ever bother to think, Baron, that, by the slightest possibility, that some supreme being such as God is looking over the world right now?



_WHO MADE GOD?_


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> I didn't say I believed in the supernatural either, just saying that assuming someone doesn't believe in _anything_ because they're an atheist is close-minded.




Do you mind if I ask, if you believe in something beyond the five senses, but don't believe in god or the paranormal/supernatural...what do yo believe is out there?



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Totally off topic but FUCK YES I _LOVE_ SUPERNATURAL.




They have some great writers.  with some of the episodes it surprises me how much research they do for the monster-of-the-week.  Even with the angel/demon lore i recognise the traps and sigils they're using.  I want to check out screen caps of the seals to see how accurate they are.

Fun fact: One of the writers (ben edlund) was the creator of The Tick.  Season five starts here on Sept 10th, and I can't wait.  the cliff hanger was awesome! 

Check out the gag reels if you can on YouTube.  They're hysterical.  



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Religion only steps in because of exactly what you said. Nobody has proof. That's the only reason it's even viable - people feel a _need_ to fill that hole in their brains from not knowing where the world came from.



Yup.  People feel the most comfortable with the familiar.  The unknown is a scary, scary thing to the core of humanity, so to explain it away with something, either science or religion, makes mankind feel more at ease.  



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> I don't mind, honestly. I enjoy talking about this kind of thing, and believe me, I respect other peoples opinions. But when you act like cyber-panda or whatever and start calling names when someone disagrees with you, then yeah, I'm going to start making fun.



Thank you *S*.   I know it's difficult to flip a viewpoint.  It's like you're consciously trying to see the blue sky as green sometimes.   As for disrespect...maybe it's because I'm really lucid right now, but I'm more apt to let things slide without making fun if someone's calling me out.

Maybe it means I need more coffee.  



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Oh, I want to try V:TM very badly, but there aren't any chapters here in FL.
> 
> EDIT: Also, I'm enjoying this a lot. You're giving me a run for my money, I'll admit. You're good at your side, here.



I only was in for one night, and it was in an abandoned warehouse.  I had good friends when I was 16 *L*.  It wasn't too special really.  Just a lot of smaller groups rping their thing, while the leader was listening to the petitions of the clans.  It was kind of like a gothy episode of The Tudors 

And I'm glad you're enjoying this as much as I am, and thanks for the compliment .  I've debated a lot with my brother (a pastor) and it's hard to debate a side and not come off as an asshole *L*.  I also don't want to come off like some new-age airhead, and that's also difficult.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> _WHO MADE GOD?_



You know, I've heard that one asked a lot.

The explanation is that he was always there.  God exists outside of time which isn't hard to imagine, since time is a human and mutable to the laws of physics.  

God is outside our reality but can still affect it...which is kind of trippy.


----------



## Aden (Aug 3, 2009)

moonchylde said:


> For the true believer, no proof is necessary; for the true skeptic, no proof will suffice.



And if I ever fall into one of those categories in my life, you have permission to shoot me.

Here is another topic I enjoy bringing up to see peoples' responses:

We take a person. We let that person grow up normally in every way, except for one: no mention of any sort of religion or god or whatnot will cross his or her ears. Will that person come up with the idea of the Christian god (or any god) or his or her own? Will some divine spark imbue them with religious ideas and morals?


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 3, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Do you mind if I ask, if you believe in something beyond the five senses, but don't believe in god or the paranormal/supernatural...what do yo believe is out there?



Fuck if I know. I don't really know what I believe. I pretty much coast along until I find something, then decide if I believe it or not based on how much evidence there is backing it up.



> I've debated a lot with my brother (a pastor) and it's hard to debate a side and not come off as an asshole *L*. I also don't want to come off like some new-age airhead, and that's also difficult.



You aren't doing either, you're just fine. Don't worry about it.


----------



## moonchylde (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> And if I ever fall into one of those categories in my life, you have permission to shoot me.
> 
> Here is another topic I enjoy bringing up to see peoples' responses:
> 
> We take a person. We let that person grow up normally in every way, except for one: no mention of any sort of religion or god or whatnot will cross his or her ears. Will that person come up with the idea of the Christian god (or any god) or his or her own? Will some divine spark imbue them with religious ideas and morals?



Depends, do they live near a desert? I've seen the desert sky at night, and it's no suprise that so many religions started there. You stare up at all that infinity long enough, you'll come up with something to put up there. 

I believe the notion of god is universal, not unlike the notion of music. Cultures that had little to no contact with each other have come up with similar ideas of deity and religion. We all need something to believe in, even if it's nothing (and from the outside, the hardcore atheists tend to appear just as, if not more so, fanatical then those they oppose. Especially when they have conventions or file law suits). 

It's human nature to believe that there's more then just what the five senses can tell us, I guess.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Aden said:


> And if I ever fall into one of those categories in my life, you have permission to shoot me.
> 
> Here is another topic I enjoy bringing up to see peoples' responses:
> 
> We take a person. We let that person grow up normally in every way, except for one: no mention of any sort of religion or god or whatnot will cross his or her ears. Will that person come up with the idea of the Christian god (or any god) or his or her own? Will some divine spark imbue them with religious ideas and morals?



Depends on if he grows up solitary or in a community.  His ideas will most likely reflect the culture he was raised in, but on his own with no access to modern science, he will still need an explanation for things like lightning, eclipses, meteors, etc.  His imagination will fill in the needed information, saying that the sun gets swallowed by a giant dragon (eclipse), that the gods are angry and are hurling fire at him (lightning), etc.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

moonchylde said:


> Depends, do they live near a desert? I've seen the desert sky at night, and it's no suprise that so many religions started there. You stare up at all that infinity long enough, you'll come up with something to put up there.
> 
> I believe the notion of god is universal, not unlike the notion of music. Cultures that had little to no contact with each other have come up with similar ideas of deity and religion. We all need something to believe in, even if it's nothing (and from the outside, the hardcore atheists tend to appear just as, if not more so, fanatical then those they oppose. Especially when they have conventions or file law suits).
> 
> It's human nature to believe that there's more then just what the five senses can tell us, I guess.



^ That's summed up my feelings rather nicely, I say *G*


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 3, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Fuck if I know. I don't really know what I believe. I pretty much coast along until I find something, then decide if I believe it or not based on how much evidence there is backing it up.



Nothing wrong with that.  There's something inherantly wrong with believing in something because you're told to.  IMO that's pretty much the best way to go about it.  You could end up stumbling across something that will confirm, one way or another, whether there is a god or not, but if you're not open to that, then you'll miss the opportunity to see it.  




Baron Von Yiffington said:


> You aren't doing either, you're just fine. Don't worry about it.



Thanks for letting me know.  You too, btw *G*


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Ishnuvalok said:


> The Big Bang Theory does not state that an atom collapsed. The big bang is when everything was concentrated into one point with near infinite density. Then exploded.
> 
> Saying "What caused the atom (or in this case, the entire universe in one point) to exist? God." Irks me a lot.



I wouldn't necessarily say that it is God, but do you think, by the slightest chance, that some supreme being outside of our reality/time/universe/whatever was involved in somewhat creating that atom?



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> _WHO MADE GOD?_



God created himself 

But some people hypothesize that God is unaffected by time or the universe or something, and somewhat has control over it, it is really freaky, if you really try to think about God, it gets really deep.


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 4, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> God created himself



Nice circular logic, brah.


----------



## moonchylde (Aug 4, 2009)

Maybe, just maaaaaybeeee... God is nothing but sentient energy? Energy cannot be created or destroyed... 

Or maybe I'm drunk and tired. Whatever.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 4, 2009)

moonchylde said:


> Maybe, just maaaaaybeeee... God is nothing but sentient energy? Energy cannot be created or destroyed...
> 
> Or maybe I'm drunk and tired. Whatever.



GOD IS DARK MATTER AND DARK ENERGY.  :V

OK scientists, everybody can go home, nothing more to research, it was really just God.


----------



## LucidDarkness (Aug 4, 2009)

I just mess around with Tarot and keep my head down when religion is brought up... 

I make up my own beliefs as I go.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Tycho said:


> GOD IS DARK MATTER AND DARK ENERGY.  :V



Actually, that is a possibility, God could be anything or anyone, use your imagination 



Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Nice circular logic, brah.



Did you bother to read my other half of the post.



Darkwing said:


> But some people hypothesize that God is unaffected by time or the universe or something, and somewhat has control over it, it is really freaky, if you really try to think about God, it gets really deep.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

Wow...I'd like to thank cYbEr_PaNdA for being such a great example of the incompatability between religious thinking and scientific reason.



Bacu said:


> Tell me, exactly _how _science has invalidated God?



The concept of parsimony, often expressed as Ockham's Razor.  God is not only completely unevidenced, but is completely unnecessary to our current understanding of the universe.  Science casts God away along with ghosts, Bigfoot, Nessie, and so on.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

moonchylde said:


> Maybe, just maaaaaybeeee... God is nothing but sentient energy? Energy cannot be created or destroyed...
> 
> Or maybe I'm drunk and tired. Whatever.



No, your not drunk or tired, you don't sound ridiculous at all, again, God could be anything or anyone, and sentient energy is a big possibility, considering that it can't be created or destroyed, sounds like God to me :3


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobar said:


> Science casts God away along with ghosts, Bigfoot, Nessie, and so on.



Now, now, let's not jump the gun here, there are some scientific evidence/theories out there to back up Ghosts, Nessie, and even God, but I am not so sure about Bigfoot (Sorry Bigfoot  )


----------



## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Now, now, let's not jump the gun here, there are some scientific evidence/theories out there to back up Ghosts, Nessie, and even God, but I am not so sure about Bigfoot (Sorry Bigfoot  )



[citation needed]


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobar said:


> [citation needed]



Here, I won't get links on Nessie and bigfoot or whatnot because that is sort of a derailment to the thread. But here is one I found on God after a very quick google search.

http://www.proofgodexists.org/

One on the scientific study of prayer.

http://www.proofgodexists.org/scientific_study_of_prayer_under.htm

One more link:

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=50821


I found all of this on the very first page on my Google search FYI.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

It's fun reading this. It proves I'm right about furries. Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay, because, as we all know, most furries in the fandom are gay. But I have to remember the furries on here are venting anger. When they say "religion" they really mean christianity because they most likely grew up with Christianity than, lets say, Shintoism or Hinduism. The only religions furries know about are probably Islam and Christianity. Now they, as in furries, go after the latter more aggressively 'cause it's in their backyard. If they do mean religion as a whole, then it only shows that they're, how can I say with out getting an infraction, jumping the gun. Since they make angry accusation based on emotion than actual knowledge.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It's fun reading this. It proves I'm right about furries. Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay, because, as we all know, *most furries in the fandom are gay*.



This is sarcasm, I hope.  Because otherwise it's just you making an ass of yourself.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Tycho said:


> This is sarcasm, I hope. Because otherwise it's just you making an ass of yourself.


 
I hear Mark Merlino actively recruited gays into the fandom.

"Furrydumb is a clusterfuck of epic proportions with an emphasis on providing the lonely/bi-desperate/confused/insane furry fetishist with the possibility of a quick fuck(4) and wank material by the metric shitload." -CrushYiffDestroy. 
http://www.crushyiffdestroy.com/show/merlino

Furries like to say this is a troll lie.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It's fun reading this. It proves I'm right about furries. Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay.



Some furries do hate religion because of this, but not all furries dislike, or not believe in religion because of that, some people just don't believe.

Personally, as a Catholic, I welcome Gays with open arms into my religion. A lot of people who are Catholic and hate Gays usually twist passages of the bible to get people to believe them. In my personal opinion, I think that God is an all loving God, he loves everybody, no matter who or what they are, but, of course, that doesn't stop God from getting mad or angry at us once and a while.


----------



## Azure (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It's fun reading this. It proves I'm right about furries. Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay, because, as we all know, most furries in the fandom are gay. But I have to remember the furries on here are venting anger. When they say "religion" they really mean christianity because they most likely grew up with Christianity than, lets say, Shintoism or Hinduism. The only religions furries know about are probably Islam and Christianity. Now they, as in furries, go after the latter more aggressively 'cause it's in their backyard. If they do mean religion as a whole, then it only shows that they're, how can I say with out getting an infraction, jumping the gun. Since they make angry accusation based on emotion than actual knowledge.


You'd like to think you make a point with this post, but really, you just constructed a massive slippery slope. Have fun falling down it. The only reason the major religions are singled out for attention is BECAUSE of their mass appeal. They do the most damage, and take themselves rather seriously, so it is only natural to go after the root of the problem.  That isn't to say other religions don't do bad things.  Hell, look at the caste system Hinduism has set up, it's basically mandatory racism, ingrained into their very culture.  There are a million and one things wrong with religion, but the base of all the problems is that people BELIEVE in it.  If they stopped believing, it would slowly be stricken from their culture over time, hopefully forming it into something more intelligent. But I know you were dying to call all furries angry gay atheists, so I'll leave you to it.

Also, LOL at that source you posted Darkwing.  Not to be rude, but that website totally misuses Einstein in every possible way.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It's fun reading this. It proves I'm right about furries. Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay, because, as we all know, most furries in the fandom are gay. But I have to remember the furries on here are venting anger. When they say "religion" they really mean christianity because they most likely grew up with Christianity than, lets say, Shintoism or Hinduism. The only religions furries know about are probably Islam and Christianity. Now they, as in furries, go after the latter more aggressively 'cause it's in their backyard. If they do mean religion as a whole, then it only shows that they're, how can I say with out getting an infraction, jumping the gun. Since they make angry accusation based on emotion than actual knowledge.



O_O

*head-desk*  Crackers, glad you're enjoying the read, but add your imput  when you know what you're talking about, okay?


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Also, LOL at that source you posted Darkwing.  Not to be rude, but that website totally misuses Einstein in every possible way.



Meh, I never really bothered reading the source anyway, so feel free to be rude 

But that was the very first page of the Google search, maybe if I searched deeper I would find something more valid, scientific, believable, and whatever the hell else appeals to you atheists, but I am too lazy to, so meh


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> You'd like to think you make a point with this post, but really, you just constructed a massive slippery slope. Have fun falling down it. The only reason the major religions are singled out for attention is BECAUSE of their mass appeal. They do the most damage, and take themselves rather seriously, so it is only natural to go after the root of the problem. That isn't to say other religions don't do bad things. Hell, look at the caste system Hinduism has set up, it's basically mandatory racism, ingrained into their very culture. There are a million and one things wrong with religion, but the base of all the problems is that people BELIEVE in it. If they stopped believing, it would slowly be stricken from their culture over time, hopefully forming it into something more intelligent. But I know you were dying to call all furries angry gay atheists, so I'll leave you to it.
> 
> Also, LOL at that source you posted Darkwing. Not to be rude, but that website totally misuses Einstein in every possible way.


 
Slippery slope? Those two words seem to be popular this month. It sounds like a ride. I bet there is a ride named that but I don't feel like googling it. It could also be a porno.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> O_O
> 
> *head-desk* Crackers, glad you're enjoying the read, but add your imput when you know what you're talking about, okay?


 
Please address what I'm wrong about instead of just saying I don't know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Some furries do hate religion because of this, but not all furries dislike, or not believe in religion because of that, some people just don't believe.
> 
> Personally, as a Catholic, I welcome Gays with open arms into my religion. A lot of people who are Catholic and hate Gays usually twist passages of the bible to get people to believe them. In my personal opinion, I think that God is an all loving God, he loves everybody, no matter who or what they are, but, of course, that doesn't stop God from getting mad or angry at us once and a while.


 
You got some balls to say that on here. Most people stay in the closet about their faith so they don't get hounded by furries who feel the need to go after christians for being Christian.


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay



So, who in this thread said this? Oh, nobody did? Oh.


----------



## Azure (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Slippery slope? Those two words seem to be popular this month. It sounds like a ride. I bet there is a ride named that but I don't feel like googling it. It could also be a porno.


A common logical fallacy.  Take a class or two, it helps.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> So, who in this thread said this? Oh, nobody did? Oh.



Seconded. Not every Catholic is anti-gay. I am actually Catholic, and Pro-Gay. Again, I welcome Gays in my religion with open arms


----------



## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Here, I won't get links on Nessie and bigfoot or whatnot because that is sort of a derailment to the thread. But here is one I found on God after a very quick google search.
> 
> http://www.proofgodexists.org/
> 
> ...



Ugh.  The former site is bad in a Time Cube sort of way, the latter is Intelligent Design bullshit.  There is a lot of very bad science reporting in both (and no citations of actual independently-verifiable _science_).

Of all the prayer studies I've actually seen papers for, prayer did not perform statistically significantly better than placebo.


----------



## Jelly (Aug 4, 2009)

BUT
BUT
ARJUNA
INACTION IS NON-EXISTENCE
ACTION IS TO MOVE FORWARD


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Please address what I'm wrong about instead of just saying I don't know what I'm talking about.



kay



> *It's fun reading this. It proves I'm right about furries.* *Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay, because, as we all know, most furries in the fandom are gay*. But I have to remember the furries on here are venting anger. When they say "religion" they really mean christianity because they most likely grew up with Christianity than, lets say, Shintoism or Hinduism. The only religions furries know about are probably Islam and Christianity. Now they, as in furries, go after the latter more aggressively 'cause it's in their backyard. If they do mean religion as a whole, then it only shows that they're, how can I say with out getting an infraction, jumping the gun. *Since they make angry accusation based on emotion than actual knowledge.*



While I do agree that Christianity is voiced most often in debates like these, religion as a whole is still alluded to as being as crippling for humanity by those who argue against its existence.

To say that most furries are anti-religious atheists because most furries are gay oversimplifies the matter, and there's no cited data to back it up.  To say that it proves you right when no evidence is presented is...well...arrogance, and the jest rubs people the wrong way.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You got some balls to say that on here. Most people stay in the closet about their faith so they don't get hounded by furries who feel the need to go after christians for being Christian.



*Facepalm*

Don't be ridiculous, Ieatcrackers, if you actually want to be taken seriously in this debate try not to point people out and mock them.


----------



## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobar said:


> Ugh.  The former site is bad in a Time Cube sort of way, the latter is Intelligent Design bullshit.  There is a lot of very bad science reporting in both (and no citations of actual independently-verifiable _science_).
> 
> Of all the prayer studies I've actually seen papers for, prayer did not perform statistically significantly better than placebo.



Here...try this one http://www.webmd.com/news/20011106/...cine?src=Inktomi&condition=Home+&+Top+Stories


----------



## LucidDarkness (Aug 4, 2009)

*Waves peace-sign flag*

*singing* All you need is love..... >_>


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Here...try this one http://www.webmd.com/news/20011106/...cine?src=Inktomi&condition=Home+&+Top+Stories



Wow.

*Thumbs up*

Great source


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> So, who in this thread said this? Oh, nobody did? Oh.


 
No, but from what I can read you seem to have some deep rooted resentment toward religion.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> A common logical fallacy. Take a class or two, it helps.


 
Thank you. I'll take your opinion into consideration.


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No, but from what I can read you seem to have some deep rooted resentment toward religion.



Yes, but not because it's anti-gay, like you said. I dislike religion because it's founded entirely on bullshit that can't be proven - not because they're anti-gay (not that it helps their cause, but still).


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No, but from what I can read you seem to have some deep rooted resentment toward religion.



*Headdesk*

What? No, Baron doesn't have resentment in religion, he just doesn't believe in it, and he has every right to, so stfu.


All of this facepalming and headdesking is giving me headaches now.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> kay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

This is my personal observation. I never intended for you guys to have  an epiphany.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> *Headdesk*
> 
> What? No, Baron doesn't have resentment in religion, he just doesn't believe in it, and he has every right to, so stfu.
> 
> ...


 
Really? I was unaware of that.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Really? I was unaware of that.



-.-

If God saw your recent posts he would smite you.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> This is my personal observation. I never intended for you guys to have  an epiphany.



Not an epiphany...just a wtf moment.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Not an epiphany...just a wtf moment.



Seconded.

You just sort of called him out of nowhere and said that all Gay furry atheists don't believe in God because of resentment in religion.

Exactly, wtf.


----------



## Azbulldog (Aug 4, 2009)

Ishnuvalok said:


> It's a problem I have with monotheistic religions. They're all "Oh if you don't know, then obviously God made it" As if god is the only alternative to not knowing? Can't you just say "I don't know"? Is it bad to not know something and strive to find out? This is what kept the Catholic Church in power for such a long time.


I'd like to toss something in here after reading all the pages that popped up in this thread just today. Anything beyond our galaxy, or maybe just our solar system does not really effect our lives in any way. There is no need to try and prove how any of it was created using religion. 
The topic of space and related currently unexplainable things rarely cross my mind so there is no need to shape my life around the belief of where any of it had come from, it doesn't effect me, I just don't care. 
There are those who do want to explain unknown subjects like the creation of the universe, such as scientists, which is great. Those scientists have more or less ran out of things to explain that do effect our daily lives such as the workings of our planet or solar system, so they just move on. While there is also things like medical science, which does effect our lives, and is more related to topic of this thread, but religion has no place in it. 
Religion in the past wasn't a completely bad thing as modern science didn't exist yet, but in society today there is no place for religion. People need to move on. 
I was raised catholic, and lutheran, and never really felt the need for it. Other people would tell me they could _feel_ God or Jesus, I tried to do the same, nothing. I was a good little boy and just did as I was told until I was mature enough to think and choose for myself. I am much happier now and invite people to do the same.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> Yes, but not because it's anti-gay, like you said. I dislike religion because it's founded entirely on bullshit that can't be proven - not because they're anti-gay (not that it helps their cause, but still).


 

But a lot of it has to do with them thinking they are being sexually oppressed by religion. It was probably very hard for these people to come out of the closet, and when they did come out they got mentally abused by their religious parents who didn't condone their sexuality. A lot are angry at their parents, but most put the blame on religion for being the overall oppressor.

I'm not with out empathy.


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## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

e: ^^^^ fuck off already



CAThulu said:


> Here...try this one http://www.webmd.com/news/20011106/...cine?src=Inktomi&condition=Home+&+Top+Stories



While it's a marked improvement over those other sites, this is still pretty bad as a source.  Science reporting in the media is generally fucking horrid, with too much emphasis put on single studies.  A sample of 150 people isn't exactly significant, particularly when we can't even see the data.  I know there have been equally small studies where the prayed-for actually performed slightly _worse_.

Overall, prayer studies are a wash. Trust me, if there was something to them, I wuold have heard long before now.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> But a lot of it has to do with them thinking they are being sexually oppressed by religion. It was probably very hard for these people to come out of the closet, and when they did come out they got mentally abused by their religious parents who didn't condone their sexuality. A lot are angry at their parents, but most put the blame on religion for being the overall oppressor.
> 
> I'm not with out empathy.


My parents don't condone my bisexuality.  Doesn't mean I became an atheist though.


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## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> But a lot of it has to do with them thinking they are being sexually oppressed by religion. It was probably very hard for these people to come out of the closet, and when they did come out they got mentally abused by their religious parents who didn't condone their sexuality. A lot are angry at their parents, but most put the blame on religion for being the overall oppressor.



Well, obviously that wasn't the cause of Baron going against religion, considering that he is asexual.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobar said:


> e: ^^^^ fuck off already
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They're little blips in the news when you do hear them; the person inexplicably cured of cancer which baffles the doctors, etc.  I've been trying to find the examples but still coming up with nothing at the moment.  Doesn't mean they don't exist...but the net is vast and infinite.


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## Internet Police Chief (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> But a lot of it has to do with them thinking they are being sexually oppressed by religion. It was probably very hard for these people to come out of the closet, and when they did come out they got mentally abused by their religious parents who didn't condone their sexuality. A lot are angry at their parents, but most put the blame on religion for being the overall oppressor.
> 
> I'm not with out empathy.



What are you talking about? I'm not even gay. I already told you I dislike religion because none of it can be proven. No, most bible thumpers being anti-gay doesn't help me like them, but that is FAR from the reason for my dislike.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Seconded.
> 
> You just sort of called him out of nowhere and said that *all* Gay furry atheists don't believe in God because of resentment in religion.
> 
> Exactly, wtf.


 
No. No. No. I say *most* or *a lot*. 

I write that so I don't generalized everyone as a whole. I try not to make a double standard for myself. 

After a little while I stop saying *most* and *a lot* so I don't sound repetitive.


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## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> They're little blips in the news when you do hear them; the person inexplicably cured of cancer which baffles the doctors, etc.  I've been trying to find the examples but still coming up with nothing at the moment.  Doesn't mean they don't exist...but the net is vast and infinite.



The thing with such stories is that they're always recoveries that could happen on their own.  God seems pretty indifferent to the plight of amputees and such.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobar said:


> The thing with such stories is that they're always recoveries that could happen on their own.  God seems pretty indifferent to the plight of amputees and such.



*L* And that's when we come back to the earlier arguement that you can't prove either way whether god was or was not involved in the healing.

The thing is, god can't be to obvious.  S/he has to work within the realms of reality.  Spontaneous limb generation would go beyond that, because we are not lizards.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Baron Von Yiffington said:


> What are you talking about? I'm not even gay. I already told you I dislike religion because none of it can be proven. No, most bible thumpers being anti-gay doesn't help me like them, but that is FAR from the reason for my dislike.


 
No I didn't call you gay. I thought we were talking about why most gay furries resent religion. I was giving my opinion on it. I'm sorry if I gave you a mixed message.


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## Internet Police Chief (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No I didn't call you gay. I thought we were talking about why most gay furries resent religion. I was giving my opinion on it. I'm sorry if I gave you a mixed message.



Well yeah, you keep quoting what I say then post something like "atheists hate religion because of being anti-gay" so you were definitely confusing me.

Anyway, no, most gay people I know don't even dislike religion.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

I got to get some sleep. Till tomorrow. It's been fun talking to people with an opposite view with out a having curse words or insults going on. I enjoyed this.


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## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> *L* And that's when we come back to the earlier arguement that you can't prove either way whether god was or was not involved in the healing.
> 
> The thing is, god can't be to obvious.  S/he has to work within the realms of reality.  Spontaneous limb generation would go beyond that, because we are not lizards.



This.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Wait, I don't want this locked. 

Yes, pray doesn't really harm anything. It's just human error.


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## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> *L* And that's when we come back to the earlier arguement that you can't prove either way whether god was or was not involved in the healing.
> 
> The thing is, god can't be to obvious.  S/he has to work within the realms of reality.  Spontaneous limb generation would go beyond that, because we are not lizards.



An effect that can't be measured can't be said to even be an effect at all, and thus, Ockham's Razor eliminates God.  You either give in to faith despite evidence, or you follow reason and stay a skeptic, but as I've said all thread, the two are incompatible.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobar said:


> An effect that can't be measured can't be said to even be an effect at all, and thus, Ockham's Razor eliminates God.  You either give in to faith despite evidence, or you follow reason and stay a skeptic, but as I've said all thread, the two are incompatible.



Occam's Razor:
_Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate _(plurality should not be posited without necessity)

Or...excess explanation not always necessary.

The postulate does not eliminate god.  Occam can easily be flipped around to prove the existence of God.  The cancer went into remission despite all reasoning and predictions.  Simplest reason:  God sent the cancer into remission.  The other answer may be something that we have never encountered before, and therefore do not know how to read it.

But note that in this instance God and Science are not mutually exclusive.  The patient was under treatment (science), but the person was praying (or being prayed for) and inexplicably, remission ensued.  There are cases of spontaneous Remission, but science cannot explain it.


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## Azbulldog (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> The thing is, god can't be to obvious.  S/he has to work within the realms of reality.  Spontaneous limb generation would go beyond that, because we are not lizards.


That apparently didn't stop Jesus and the water to wine and all the others.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Yes, pray doesn't really harm anything. It's just human error.



Did you actually *read* the OP, perchance? Prayer CAN be dangerous because it lulls people into expecting that a mythical "higher power" will save them or their loved ones, as opposed to actually getting up and DOING something about treatment.

Frankly, anyone who dismisses medical treatment in favour of prayer for someone under their care who then dies of a treatable condition should be done for manslaughter.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Azbulldog said:


> That apparently didn't stop Jesus and the water to wine and all the others.



True.  But Jesus was using the direct approach in proving that he was the Son of God.  He couldn't just walk around claiming he was.  There were quite a few who were doing it at the time, so he needed something to set him apart from the rest.   He was also fulfilling prophecy and teaching while doing this (seven loaves and two fishies = god provides necessities).

God has aparantly hit the human race over the head enough times with miracles and after the death of Jesus, they petered off.  They still show up from time to time, but are no longer in the frequency that they used to be (unless you're the kind of person that sees the face of Jesus in a cheese pizza)


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## Mayfurr (Aug 4, 2009)

Azbulldog said:


> That apparently didn't stop Jesus and the water to wine and all the others.



True - but restoring amputated limbs was apparently beyond him, despite the boost to his 'street cred' that it would have been.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Did you actually *read* the OP, perchance? Prayer CAN be dangerous because it lulls people into expecting that a mythical "higher power" will save them or their loved ones, as opposed to actually getting up and DOING something about treatment.
> 
> Frankly, anyone who dismisses medical treatment in favour of prayer for someone under their care who then dies of a treatable condition should be done for manslaughter.



Earlier it was stated that neither should be used exclusively, but together.  Anyone who dives for the prayerbook in a serious matter without seeing a doctor is a fool and is forcing God's hand to prove a point.  However, there's something to be said in the assurance that no matter what happens is part of a greater purpose then what we can see.


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> True - but restoring amputated limbs was apparently beyond him, despite the boost to his 'street cred' that it would have been.



1) He raised lazarus from the dead.  healed the lame, the blind, and the leperous

2) We're not lizards.  Limbs do not naturally regenrate with human beings.  Mind you, if he had come across someone who was limbless, he may have healed that.  The miracles were to illustrate a point, along with his teachings and parables.


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## Azbulldog (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> God has aparantly hit the human race over the head enough times with miracles and after the death of Jesus, they petered off.


Why is that? Once Jesus was gone there was no one around to do any more magic tricks? Well, until Joseph Smith showed up. :/


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Azbulldog said:


> Why is that? Once Jesus was gone there was no one around to do any more magic tricks? Well, until Joseph Smith showed up. :/



Nope...Jesus fulfulled the prophecies, so it was up to mankind to step out on their own without any further proof.  There are still miracles, but in this day and age they're harder and harder to see them as such.

As for joseph smith...I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole out of respect for our Mormon furries.


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## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Occam's Razor:
> _Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate _(plurality should not be posited without necessity)
> 
> Or...excess explanation not always necessary.
> ...



Ockham's Razor is also written as "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity."  Your example of simplicity uses a mistaken definition of simplicity in this context, which is why I personally always avoid using the word "simplicity" at all when discussing Ockham.  In your example, the body in which the cancer is present is a known entity, and the doctors, if he is being treated, are also a known entity.  The "simplest" explanation possible would only involve known entities.  God cannot be part of the "simplest" explanation in this context, even if "God did it" is a simple explanation by the colloquial definition of simple.

I also don't see how this demonstrates compatibility between science and religion.  Both may have been applied, but I cannot see how either side could satisfactorily credit both science and God.  Doing so would suggest each required the other, which is a bizarre statement to make.  The religious would be more than happy to give God all the credit while us skeptics still wouldn't see his involvement at all.  Also, just because something is not readily explained by science does not mean that religion has an answer.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Earlier it was stated that neither should be used exclusively, but together.  Anyone who dives for the prayerbook in a serious matter without seeing a doctor is a fool and is forcing God's hand to prove a point.  *However, there's something to be said in the assurance that no matter what happens is part of a greater purpose then what we can see.*



Sorry, I'm calling "cop-out" on this. This is basically stacking the dice for "heads I win, tails you lose" - if my prayer is answered it's proof of God working in my life, but if my prayer isn't answered it's just because it wasn't in "God's plan".



CAThulu said:


> 2) We're not lizards.  Limbs do not naturally regenrate with human beings.  Mind you, if he had come across someone who was limbless, he may have healed that.



a) Yes, I agree that limbs do not naturally regenerate with human beings. So wouldn't it have been a REAL miracle if someone's amputated limb DID regenerate? We certainly can't do that today, and such an event is easily verifiable.

b) So why didn't someone write about it, considering that they saw fit to include diseases that may have gone into remission on their own without intervention? Perhaps because... it never happened?

So here's a question: Why won't God heal amputees if they pray for such healing? Especially as Jesus says "Ask, and you shall receive" without _any_ qualifications?


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## CAThulu (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayfurr:

The only way I can answer all of your questions is by saying this:
I wouldn't tell god how to roll his dice, because s/he is God, and by definition is omnicient, omnipresent, and the creator.

Yeah...sounds like a cop-out, but one mortal among billions can't call out god to _prove _hirself.  

And I believe the ask and you shall receive is reserved for christian believers, and if you're a christian, you wouldn't ask something of god that you know s/he wouldn't give.


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## Lobar (Aug 4, 2009)

Which doesn't make it any less a cop-out.  If you met a Bigfoot watcher and asked for proof of Bigfoot, and his answer was that Bigfoot does not show himself to people merely seeking proof of Bigfoot, and that you had to put away the camera for him to come out, you would rightly call that a cop-out.  What makes it different for a god (and one _specific_ god out of so many, too)?  Not reason, certainly.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 4, 2009)

Wow. 10 pages of replies, most slightly off topic and onto a bigger thing, though I stopped reading after about 6 pages. A few little bits to add.

Faith is never good. Faith is bad because it is completely unjustified. You can have faith in anything but there's no reason for it to be true without proof.

God almost certainly doesn't exist. If he did then it's kind of odd that he performs miracles for people of all religions, particularly when he was so against other religions in the Bible. Unless there are multiple gods.... In any case the Bible contradicts science and doesn't fit with our understanding of history.

There's pretty much no proof for god. All there is is ignorance and amazement with what exist and so people decide that the only way that could be is if there were a god or other magical explanation, despite the lack of magic anywhere else in their life.


----------



## Armaetus (Aug 4, 2009)

It never works. 

Never has, never will.


----------



## Thatch (Aug 4, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Faith healing is bullshit



Placebo. Faith does work miracles, only in a much more carnal way.

Also no bestiality talk? I'm dissapointed.


----------



## Gavrill (Aug 4, 2009)

Aw man I wish I could find that link to a study done about prayer. Apparently people who were sick actually got worse when they were told that people were praying for them. I wish I could remember that link...


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## blackfuredfox (Aug 4, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> Aw man I wish I could find that link to a study done about prayer. Apparently people who were sick actually got worse when they were told that people were praying for them. I wish I could remember that link...



well, thats just dandy.


----------



## Thatch (Aug 4, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> Aw man I wish I could find that link to a study done about prayer. Apparently people who were sick actually got worse when they were told that people were praying for them. I wish I could remember that link...



lol, I'm not surprised. It's hard to feel better when people around you think you're in need of praying for. Reverse placebo.


----------



## Aden (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> They're little blips in the news when you do hear them; the person inexplicably cured of cancer which baffles the doctors, etc.





CAThulu said:


> There are cases of spontaneous Remission, but science cannot explain it.



The thing that irks me, though, is when science cannot explain an occurrence (_yet_), people jump to religion immediately. "You can't explain it, so our belief system must". Complete logic derailment.

I don't see why everyone finds it hard to say "I don't know why this happened" instead of trying to clamber to the top of the mountain to stake their claim for their beliefs.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 4, 2009)

I don't know how David Copperfield does his tricks, Penn and Teller would probably be a better example, but I don't assume that means it's magic. All it means is that there's something I don't know.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 4, 2009)

CAThulu said:


> Yeah...sounds like a cop-out, but one mortal among billions can't call out god to _prove _hirself.



Why not? Moses did, if you believe the Bible.



CAThulu said:


> And I believe the ask and you shall receive is reserved for christian believers, and if you're a christian, you wouldn't ask something of god that you know s/he wouldn't give.



Something that god "wouldn't" do, or *can't* do?

If no believer has ever prayed to god for an amputee's limb to be restored, it's because deep down in the heart of hearts of even the most fervent believer *they know that regeneration of amputated human limbs is absolutely 100% impossible, even for their so-called god.* And if god is supposedly happy enough to "heal" comparatively minor illnesses through prayer, why not amputation? "I'll heal you of leprosy, but you just have to be stuck with one leg missing - I ain't doing that."



Lobar said:


> Which doesn't make it any less a cop-out.  If you met a Bigfoot watcher and asked for proof of Bigfoot, and his answer was that Bigfoot does not show himself to people merely seeking proof of Bigfoot, and that you had to put away the camera for him to come out, you would rightly call that a cop-out.  What makes it different for a god (and one _specific_ god out of so many, too)?  Not reason, certainly.



This.


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## Tycho (Aug 4, 2009)

Science = asking that person selling you a pig in a sack to show you the pig before you hand him the money.

Faith = Paying for the pig in the sack sight unseen.  And then convincing yourself later that the salesman did indeed sell you a pig, even after you open the sack and find a small bag of potatoes.  You cannot explain where the pig has gone, but the salesman must have been telling the truth!


----------



## Azbulldog (Aug 4, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Science = asking that person selling you a pig in a sack to show you the pig before you hand him the money.
> 
> Faith = Paying for the pig in the sack sight unseen.  And then convincing yourself later that the salesman did indeed sell you a pig, even after you open the sack and find a small bag of potatoes.  You cannot explain where the pig has gone, but the salesman must have been telling the truth!


Lol, cookie for you.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Faith is never good. Faith is bad because it is completely unjustified.



Okay, tell me why faith in God is bad, I know your going to bring up those cases, but those people are the idiots in my religion. God is not going to help you until you get off your ass and actually do something, it even said so in the bible. And, as an example in those cases, those people just prayed, and did nothing else but sit on their lazy asses, therefore they didn't deserve God's help and attention in the first place.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Why not? Moses did, if you believe the Bible.



Yes, but didn't Moses actually need God for help? Because of all of the technology and junk we got today, I don't think God is going to show himself anytime soon because we weren't as dependent on him as we were before.


----------



## ArielMT (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Did you actually *read* the OP, perchance?



I'm surprised anyone remembers what this thread is about.

"Faith healing" is *blind* faith, a sort that is in complete denial of the reality all around.  The original purpose of religious faith was to provide an explanation for the parts of reality that defy any other form of explanation.  Most of us at least seem to agree that blind faith, the complete disconnect from reality, is what's dangerous.



CAThulu said:


> They still show up from time to time, but are no longer in the frequency that they used to be (unless you're the kind of person that sees the face of Jesus in a cheese pizza)



Or the face of the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich.  (It's sacrilicious.)

---

Also, if the term "supernatural" seems inappropriate because nothing in this universe is beyond nature, no matter how much is beyond human comprehension, then may I suggest the term "superhuman" in its place?


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Did you actually *read* the OP, perchance? Prayer CAN be dangerous because it lulls people into expecting that a mythical "higher power" will save them or their loved ones, as opposed to actually getting up and DOING something about treatment.
> 
> Frankly, anyone who dismisses medical treatment in favour of prayer for someone under their care who then dies of a treatable condition should be done for manslaughter.



It's not a gun. It just people hoping. Hope can't hurt.

Also lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY9fWgrRxA&feature=channel_page 

YOU SEE THIS!??!?! BUT STILL!


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## Tycho (Aug 4, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It's not a gun. It just people hoping. Hope can't hurt.



Negligence CAN hurt.

And that is exactly what it amounts to.  You COULD have done something yourself to help, instead you wrung your hands and prayed to skydaddy to do it for you.  It's negligence.  It's laziness.  To resort to praying means either you think you have exhausted all other methods or you're too lazy/cowardly to take any drastic action necessary.  You pray when your son's/wife's/whoever's well being and for the success of the operation when they go into surgery to remove the tumor, because at that point the ability to otherwise influence the outcome is out of your hands (assuming you're not the surgeon, in which case it is SQUARELY in your hands and you have a responsibility as a professional and as a human being to do everything in YOUR power within reason to ensure success).  You do not sit at home with a bedridden person whose life is in mortal peril unless decisive ACTION is taken, praying for their recovery, when you should be hauling ass to the nearest hospital to seek treatment for them.


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## Nargle (Aug 4, 2009)

Other people praying for you doesn't do squat. However, praying for yourself *can* be almost like meditation, where you tap into previously dormant parts of the mind. Your mental state has a HUGE affect on just about everything in your life, including getting over illness. For instance, some Tibetan monks have the ability to drastically change their body's temperature by meditating.

It's not about God answering your prayers and miraculously healing you. It's about tapping into you're mind's abilities that most people never knew they had. Just because someone calls it prayer doesn't make it any less useful.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 5, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Negligence CAN hurt.
> 
> And that is exactly what it amounts to. You COULD have done something yourself to help, instead you wrung your hands and prayed to skydaddy to do it for you. It's negligence. It's laziness. To resort to praying means either you think you have exhausted all other methods or you're too lazy/cowardly to take any drastic action necessary. You pray when your son's/wife's/whoever's well being and for the success of the operation when they go into surgery to remove the tumor, because at that point the ability to otherwise influence the outcome is out of your hands (assuming you're not the surgeon, in which case it is SQUARELY in your hands and you have a responsibility as a professional and as a human being to do everything in YOUR power within reason to ensure success). You do not sit at home with a bedridden person whose life is in mortal peril unless decisive ACTION is taken, praying for their recovery, when you should be hauling ass to the nearest hospital to seek treatment for them.


 

You just said it yourself, neglect. The prayer didn't kill the child but the father's neglect did. So what, he prayed to his god. You're too busy blaming prayer than the father. It's like furries blaming CSI for furrydom's image instead of trying to see what is the true cause.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 5, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You just said it yourself, neglect. The prayer didn't kill the child but the father's neglect did. So what, he prayed to his god. You're too busy blaming prayer than the father. It's like furries blaming CSI for furrydom's image instead of trying to see what is the true cause.



Dude, substituting prayer for proper medical treatment IS neglect... in much the same way as staying home and reading "War and Peace" aloud as a substitute for getting medical treatment is neglect.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 5, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Dude, substituting prayer for proper medical treatment IS neglect... in much the same way as staying home and reading "War and Peace" aloud as a substitute for getting medical treatment is neglect.


 
You resent religion so you are going to say prayer is to blame. 

It was the neglect through prayer, but the prayer can't be responsible for the father's neglect. The father could have just as easily have kept the sick child home on the account of he believes in natural selection, and the child's death represents nature taking its course. The belief of natural selection or eugenics could have just as easily been blamed for the death of the child. Is the father accountable for the child's death or would it be his philosophy? The father's philosophy was the overall factor is the child's death, but can you put the blame on it? No. Thought doesn't hurt, but actions do.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 5, 2009)

If the choice was to pray, instead of take proper medical action, then the praying *was* the action chosen, and *did* hurt.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 5, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You resent religion so you are going to say prayer is to blame.



You support religion so you are going to try and find any way of weaselling out of the brutally obvious - choosing to pray *instead of* providing medical attention is an act neglect, backed up by false hopes given by religious authorities.



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It was the neglect through prayer, but the prayer can't be responsible for the father's neglect. The father could have just as easily have kept the sick child home on the account of he believes in natural selection, and the child's death represents nature taking its course. The belief of natural selection or eugenics could have just as easily been blamed for the death of the child. Is the father accountable for the child's death or would it be his philosophy? The father's philosophy was the overall factor is the child's death, but can you put the blame on it? No. Thought doesn't hurt, but actions do.



I rather suspect that if the example you propose DID happen, religious types like yourself would be jumping on the "Eugenics is evil, let's BAN it!" bandwagon faster than a starving person jumping on a Big Mac...

And here's another thing. The proponents of 9/11 by all accounts prayed to Allah prior to (and during) their attacks. Given their success, would you conclude that Allah was listening and approved of their actions, facilitating the murder of 2,000 people?


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2009)

The OP should be elevated to a position of great authority.


----------



## Jashwa (Aug 5, 2009)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> The OP should be elevated to a position of great authority.


 No, because then bestiality would be legal.


I was worried that this topic wouldn't be able to tied back to that for a minute.  :V

On topic:  I kind of agree with crackers.  You can't JUST blame religion and people's belief that prayer can help for what happens.  You have to blame the stupid people that can sit there and see all the people of the world dying and think that just because they prayed that God will listen and save their loved one and that they shouldn't do anything else.  Religion doesn't preach, or atleast most don't, that doctors are evil and are against God, that's just stupid people


----------



## blackfuredfox (Aug 5, 2009)

Jashwa said:


> No, because then bestiality would be legal.
> 
> 
> I was worried that this topic wouldn't be able to tied back to that for a minute.  :V
> ...



when did you get back? also yeah on the beastiality thing, he is a...a...well its damn obvious.


----------



## Jashwa (Aug 5, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> when did you get back? also yeah on the beastiality thing, he is a...a...well its damn obvious.


 I'm not back, I'm still in Florida.  We're just taking a day just chilling at the house so I'm on my laptop.


----------



## blackfuredfox (Aug 5, 2009)

Jashwa said:


> I'm not back, I'm still in Florida.  We're just taking a day just chilling at the house so I'm on my laptop.



oh, well where in Fl?


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 5, 2009)

> Okay, tell me why faith in God is bad, I know your going to bring up those cases, but those people are the idiots in my religion. God is not going to help you until you get off your ass and actually do something, it even said so in the bible. And, as an example in those cases, those people just prayed, and did nothing else but sit on their lazy asses, therefore they didn't deserve God's help and attention in the first place.



The Muslim attacks on the trade centre were religious attacks, the people did what they did because they believed in an afterlife. People use god as an explanation and so don't bother to learn anything new. When new things are learnt, particularly in molecular biology, then scientists are accused of 'playing god' and they try to have the information repressed, information that could help thousands of people. People in power can easily exploit faith because I doesn't require them to prove anything. All you have to do is say that it's god's will and you immediately have a flock of people who are willing to die for you. People who are willing to kill for what they believe is god's will.



> It's not about God answering your prayers and miraculously healing you. It's about tapping into you're mind's abilities that most people never knew they had. Just because someone calls it prayer doesn't make it any less useful.



If they call it prayer and think that it comes from god it has a major effect on what they think it can do and how they live their lives. I don't think people should live their lives for a lie.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 5, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You just said it yourself, neglect. The prayer didn't kill the child but the father's neglect did. So what, he prayed to his god. You're too busy blaming prayer than the father. It's like furries blaming CSI for furrydom's image instead of trying to see what is the true cause.



This kind of "prayer before medicine" bullshit has been going on for a while and is not only not condemned by religious establishments but is ENCOURAGED by a small portion of them.  Prayer is the enabler.  Prayer is the empty promise that draws people away from the reality of the situation.

But you are somewhat right in that prayer itself is not truly to blame, any more than a gun is to blame for its wielder murdering someone.  I said in my post that prayer is not inherently evil, but is being abused.  People want to pray, fine, I have no problem with that, as long as they've crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's in real life first.  This is more or less what I SAID in my post and what you seem to have conveniently ignored.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 5, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> You support religion so you are going to try and find any way of weaselling out of the brutally obvious - choosing to pray *instead of* providing medical attention is an act neglect, backed up by false hopes given by religious authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You gay by any chance?


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 5, 2009)

Tycho said:


> This kind of "prayer before medicine" bullshit has been going on for a while and is not only not condemned by religious establishments but is ENCOURAGED by a small portion of them. Prayer is the enabler. Prayer is the empty promise that draws people away from the reality of the situation.
> 
> But you are somewhat right in that prayer itself is not truly to blame, any more than a gun is to blame for its wielder murdering someone. I said in my post that prayer is not inherently evil, but is being abused. People want to pray, fine, I have no problem with that, as long as they've crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's in real life first. This is more or less what I SAID in my post and what you seem to have conveniently ignored.


 


Tycho said:


> And that is exactly what it amounts to. You COULD have done something yourself to help, instead you wrung your hands and prayed to skydaddy to do it for you. It's negligence. It's laziness.


 
This contradicts your



> that prayer itself is not truly to blame


 
You still went a head to put the blame on prayer and on thought. 

Another thing this is going to prove is that furries are fascists.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 5, 2009)

Jashwa said:


> No, because then bestiality would be legal.
> 
> 
> I was worried that this topic wouldn't be able to tied back to that for a minute.  :V
> ...



This. There is nothing wrong in Prayer, it is just the idiots out there who abuse it.

A lot of you who are saying that prayer is wrong, and that religion is wrong and should be taken out, think about it, why do you think that people hate furries? Because there are a small minority of idiot and horny furries who rape their pets and animals, and thusfore, end up on the news for the mainstream crowd to use against us. Same thing applies to Catholics, a lot of us Catholics don't think that doctors are evil. But there are a small minority that do, and therefore, they end up dying, and therefore, end up in the news for Atheists to use against us.

A little bit of Faith is a good thing, it is just too much Faith that hurts, remember that.


----------



## ArielMT (Aug 5, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> The Muslim attacks on the trade centre were religious attacks, the people did what they did because they believed in an afterlife.



Did you really mean to insult a huge religion based only on how a handful of nutty terrorists acted?



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> People in power can easily exploit faith because I doesn't require them to prove anything. All you have to do is say that it's god's will and you immediately have a flock of people who are willing to die for you. People who are willing to kill for what they believe is god's will.



Ah, so that's why I don't have my death army yet.  I've been doing it wrong the whole time, using religion for spiritual guidance instead of political control.  Well, with this secret, I'll at last be able to summon the monstrous Zoamelgustar and rebuild the Kingdom of Zoanna!

But how does that relate to inaction via prayer?


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 5, 2009)

The only God's I pray to are Cthulu and Ja...


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2009)

Jashwa said:


> No, because then bestiality would be legal.
> 
> 
> I was worried that this topic wouldn't be able to tied back to that for a minute.  :V
> ...





Whoops! My bad.....maybe bestowing him with great power wouldn't be such a good idea...


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 6, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You gay by any chance?



And this has WHAT to do with the subject? Oh, I get it, you think I'm against religion because you think I'm gay. If that's the best counter-argument you can come up with... game, set and match to me I think.

Oh, and my sexual orientation? *It's none of your fucking business.*


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 6, 2009)

> Did you really mean to insult a huge religion based only on how a handful of nutty terrorists acted?



Absolutely. They aren't as nutty as you try to make out, what they did was believed stronger than others. If god says go out and kill the infidels and commit jihad on non-believers and you truly believe then that's what you would do. Those terrorists are more likely the true Muslims. And even if they aren't the best example they still did what they did being motivated by a ridiculous belief system. If they didn't believe in paradise then they almost certainly wouldn't waste their lives like that.



> Ah, so that's why I don't have my death army yet. I've been doing it wrong the whole time, using religion for spiritual guidance instead of political control. Well, with this secret, I'll at last be able to summon the monstrous Zoamelgustar and rebuild the Kingdom of Zoanna!
> 
> But how does that relate to inaction via prayer?



If you doubt the power of religion look up suicide cults and Scientology.

It doesn't directly relate to prayer, this thread has been moved on to the whole idea of religion instead of focussing on prayer.



> lot of you who are saying that prayer is wrong, and that religion is wrong and should be taken out, think about it, why do you think that people hate furries? Because there are a small minority of idiot and horny furries who rape their pets and animals, and thusfore, end up on the news for the mainstream crowd to use against us. Same thing applies to Catholics, a lot of us Catholics don't think that doctors are evil. But there are a small minority that do, and therefore, they end up dying, and therefore, end up in the news for Atheists to use against us.
> 
> A little bit of Faith is a good thing, it is just too much Faith that hurts, remember that.



I really don't think that's why people don't like furs. I'd say it's just because furs are different. It's that simple. In any case furry isn't making some stupid claim, except people who say that they have an animal soul or whatever. Religion makes claims that are unsupported by evidence.

In any case when is faith good? When is it desirable to ignore reality?


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 6, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Religion makes claims that are unsupported by evidence.



Look, Rakuen, I don't know if you entirely understand my religion, but there are some things out there that just can't be explained scientifically. A few examples here are Aliens, philosophy, spontaneous combustion, Ghosts, and other things in the unknown. Doesn't mean it can't be explained doesn't mean that it isn't real.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> In any case when is faith good? When is it desirable to ignore reality?



Like I said before, a little bit of Faith is always good, it is just too much faith that hurts.

Heak, I have even experienced a few miracles myself from faith. One of these miracles I experienced can't be explained in anyway possible.

Doesn't mean you can't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


----------



## ArielMT (Aug 6, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> ArielMT said:
> 
> 
> > Did you really mean to insult a huge religion based only on how a handful of nutty terrorists acted?
> ...



Oh, okay.  So  how does militant irreligionism and apparent ignorance of what religions preach make you better than them?



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> If you doubt the power of religion look up suicide cults and Scientology.



My Slayers Next reference went completely over your head.  Sorry about that.  I looked up suicide cults like Jonestown and Heaven's Gate, and the Church of Scientology runs itself unlike any religious institution in the world.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> It doesn't directly relate to prayer, this thread has been moved on to the whole idea of religion instead of focussing on prayer.



Oh, so we're dodging that, then?  Fine by me, really, as long as we're clear on that.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 6, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> And this has WHAT to do with the subject? Oh, I get it, you think I'm against religion because you think I'm gay. If that's the best counter-argument you can come up with... game, set and match to me I think.
> 
> Oh, and my sexual orientation? *It's none of your fucking business.*


 
Don't be a shamed of what you are.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Aug 6, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> A few examples here are Aliens, philosophy, spontaneous combustion, Ghosts, and other things in the unknown. Doesn't mean it can't be explained doesn't mean that it isn't real.


 
That doesn't mean it IS real, either.

And it doesn't mean whatever it is is automatically proof of any divine hand. And if it somehow can be interpreted that way, which deity? Allah? Zeus?


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 6, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Don't be a shame of what you are.



^ Epic Red Herring



Darkwing said:


> Look, Rakuen, I don't know if you entirely understand my religion, but there are some things out there that just can't be explained scientifically. A few examples here are Aliens, philosophy, spontaneous combustion, Ghosts, and other things in the unknown. Doesn't mean it can't be explained doesn't mean that it isn't real.



Actually, I think spontaneous combustion has been explained, but the other things you listed (except philosophy)...

Saying "Deity did it" is the laziest answer you can come up with, and _still_ doesn't answer the question; in fact, it then demands _more_ questions to be asked, and demands _more_ evidence/proof then the original question: _why_ did deity do it? _How_ did deity do it?.



Darkwing said:


> Doesn't mean you can't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.



Quadruple negative? Jesus. I figger people know what you're trying to say, but _my god_.

It also depends on the situation that you're talking about, you're painting with a pretty big brush there, and many things could factor in to explain away, or denounce what you thought you heard/saw/felt/smelt/tasted.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 6, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> ^ Epic Red Herring


 
No it's not. It goes into what I said in my first post. Most people in the fandom are gay and resent religion, and my point was that most of that resentment comes from being gay. It only seems to be this little circle jerk group that think they insult and make false accusations with out backing up anything they say. At least I say why I say what I say.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 6, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Actually, I think spontaneous combustion has been explained.



No, spontaneous combustion has never been recreated in a lab, therefore, spontaneous combustion is considered a theory.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 6, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Most people in the fandom are gay and resent religion, and my point was that* most of that resentment comes from being gay.*



That could be true, but, I believe it is for a small minority of the fandom.

Look, crackers, it is not like the entire world believes in God, so the fact that they are in the fandom make no difference, and the majority of the fandom is bi, btw.



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> At least I say why I say what I say.



What? Okay, I have no idea what you said there, but don't say it again for the sake of being taken seriously. Leave the smartass-ery to the professionals, please :3


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 6, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No it's not. It goes into what I said in my first post. Most people in the fandom are gay and resent religion, and my point was that most of that resentment comes from being gay. It only seems to be this little circle jerk group that think they insult and make false accusations with out backing up anything they say. At least I say why I say what I say.



Mayfurrs' argument won't be proven right or wrong by whether or not s/he's gay...so the connection would be irrelevant.


----------



## Azure (Aug 6, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No it's not. It goes into what I said in my first post. Most people in the fandom are gay and resent religion, and my point was that most of that resentment comes from being gay. It only seems to be this little circle jerk group that think they insult and make false accusations with out backing up anything they say. At least I say why I say what I say.


This is exactly what I was talking about in the other thread.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 7, 2009)

ArielMT said:
			
		

> militant irreligionism



The trend of branding atheists as "militant" is retarded and ought to stop.

Shit like this is what real militants do.  The worst atheists have ever done to theists is confront them with logic and different ways of thinking.

There are no militant atheists.  Stop using the word militant to describe atheists.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 7, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Don't be a shamed of what you are.





Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No it's not. It goes into what I said in my first post. Most people in the fandom are gay and resent religion, and my point was that most of that resentment comes from being gay.



No, your point is to throw a red herring argument at someone who dares to hold a contrary opinion to your own. Whatever my sexuality happens to be has no bearing on my opinions and *is no business of a self-important patronising snot-nosed git.*


----------



## ArielMT (Aug 7, 2009)

Lobar said:


> The trend of branding atheists as "militant" is retarded and ought to stop.
> 
> Shit like this is what real militants do.  The worst atheists have ever done to theists is confront them with logic and different ways of thinking.
> 
> There are no militant atheists.  Stop using the word militant to describe atheists.



I deliberately avoided the use of the word "atheist."  My understanding is that an atheist is a person, whether religious or not, who simply doesn't believe any gods exist.  Not limited to those who aren't religious.

I'm open to suggestions about what qualifier I should've used instead of "militant" to describe one person, though.  But please don't think for a moment that I use any word but "atheist" to describe atheists.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> No, your point is to throw a red herring argument at someone who dares to hold a contrary opinion to your own. Whatever my sexuality happens to be has no bearing on my opinions and *is no business of a self-important patronising snot-nosed git.*



This.

Seriously, Crackers, you are not going to be taken seriously in this debate if you keep saying this bullshit. Also Crackers, the majority of the fandom is bi, btw.


----------



## DjSielwolf (Aug 7, 2009)

i dont pray..   i gusse ill see you all in hell, save me a seat on the bus please


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

Lobar said:


> The worst atheists have ever done to theists is confront them with logic and different ways of thinking.



No, Atheists actually tried boycotting Christmas once xD

Also, didn't Atheists threaten to sue Obama for putting religion and God in his speeches?

A few links:

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_congress_national_motto/2009/07/14/235499.html

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58800

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/deadlineusa/2009/jul/14/atheists-lawsuit-god-capitol

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/01/atheists_annoyed_by_inaugural.html


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

DjSielwolf said:


> i dont pray..   i gusse ill see you all in hell, save me a seat on the bus please



Sorry, I won't be there considering that I will be yiffing in heaven xD


----------



## Azure (Aug 7, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> No, Atheists actually tried boycotting Christmas once xD
> 
> Also, didn't Atheists threaten to sue Obama for putting religion and God in his speeches?
> 
> ...


Because, ya know, lawsuits and boycotts are totally militant. Those are the manners in which you confront people, make your voice known.  Also, the particular pastor he chose to do his inauguration is a special kind of scumbag.


----------



## Leostale (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm a freethinker and a Nonetheist

hmm....

heaven = to a place in peace where you would be at peace.
when i think of peace, i think your just gonna lay down and do nothing, which is boring
or
In hell, you'll never die and still goes to challenges and punishments!!
 and maybe hell's ultimate punishment is Eternal Buttsex
Who wants to come to hell!! it's free


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Because, ya know, lawsuits and boycotts are totally militant. Those are the manners in which you confront people, make your voice known.  Also, the particular pastor he chose to do his inauguration is a special kind of scumbag.



Okay, okay, I was probably exaggerating a little by saying their militant, but, in other words, I find all of these boycotts and lawsuiting ridiculous. They are totally pointless, let alone it makes you Atheists look like total asses by jumping the gun a little bit too far when someone mentions God.

Like, I know a friend at school who is Atheist, and whenever I mention God he jumps into the conversation and actively questions in my beliefs, it gets really annoying because I know that no matter what he says I will always still believe in God, so what is the point in him questioning my beliefs other than making himself look like a total douche?

Although don't take this the wrong way thinking I think all Atheists are total asses, some Atheists are actually really nice and cool and respectful towards religion. I am just telling you that some Atheists take things too far over the littlest of things.


----------



## Azure (Aug 7, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> Okay, okay, I was probably exaggerating a little by saying their militant, but, in other words, I find all of these boycotts and lawsuiting ridiculous. They are totally pointless, let alone it makes you Atheists look like total asses by jumping the gun a little bit too far when someone mentions God.
> 
> Like, I know a friend at school who is Atheist, and whenever I mention God he jumps into the conversation and actively questions in my beliefs, it gets really annoying because I know that no matter what he says I will always still believe in God, so what is the point in him questioning my beliefs other than making himself look like a total douche?
> 
> Although don't take this the wrong way thinking I think all Atheists are total asses, some Atheists are actually really nice and cool and respectful towards religion. I am just telling you that some Atheists take things too far over the littlest of things.


Little things create big problems.  God doesn't belong in school, government, or the workplace.  Keep it to yourself. And we just might as well. This is our way of challenging what is obviously an overwhelming majority.  It take more than just being quiet and leaving people alone, we must actively question the beliefs of others.  How do you think we are made?


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> God doesn't belong in school, government, or the workplace.



Your actually right on that one, if God wasn't in the government in the first place than Gay marriage would be legal by now. Which, being one of the minority of Catholics, support that.



AzurePhoenix said:


> Little things create big problems.



Your right on that one too.



AzurePhoenix said:


> Keep it to yourself.



You are right on that one as well. It actually says it in the bible to keep God to yourself. So I guess you Atheists are doing God's work


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 7, 2009)

> Look, Rakuen, I don't know if you entirely understand my religion, but there are some things out there that just can't be explained scientifically. A few examples here are Aliens, philosophy, spontaneous combustion, Ghosts, and other things in the unknown. Doesn't mean it can't be explained doesn't mean that it isn't real.



Philosophy is separate from religion as well, it's just a way of thinking and or living. Aliens are perfectly explainable by science, it's just that there's no reason to believe they do exist. Most scientists, and myself, accept that alien life is possible but it hasn't ever been found. And weird conspiracy theorists ideas about aliens don't count. Anyway just because things haven't been explained yet doesn't mean that they can't. It's also a huge jump to assume that things are real when there's no evidence for them. If I say that I have a unicorn you aren't going to believe it because you can't disprove it. You almost certainly won't believe it because there's no evidence about it.



> Like I said before, a little bit of Faith is always good, it is just too much faith that hurts.
> 
> Heak, I have even experienced a few miracles myself from faith. One of these miracles I experienced can't be explained in anyway possible.



You still didn't answer when it's good. Why is a little faith good? And how much is too much? Miracles are almost all rubbish anyway. I used to believe in them when I was young. I remember I went out riding my bike and asked god for a sign, can't remember why, and then I found a playing card lying in the road. It wasn't a sign, someone just dropped a card. If an angel suddenly appeared and changed water into wine, that'd be a sign. Think about whatever your miracle is and whether it could possibly happen without a god. Let's not forget that 'miracles' happen to people from all religions.



> Oh, okay.  So  how does militant irreligionism and apparent ignorance of what religions preach make you better than them?



Not sure what you want me to get out of the link. I've said before that religious tolerance is complete rubbish. If you truly believe then religious tolerance isn't an option. And how am I different, I don't go around killing people and I don't believe things that don't have any supporting evidence.


----------



## Get-dancing (Aug 7, 2009)

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155374/

"I wasn't talking about spaghetti."


----------



## ArielMT (Aug 7, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Not sure what you want me to get out of the link. I've said before that religious tolerance is complete rubbish. If you truly believe then religious tolerance isn't an option. And how am I different, I don't go around killing people and I don't believe things that don't have any supporting evidence.



What I wanted you to get out of the link was the idea that you shouldn't judge any group by its most extreme members.  However, it's obvious you're content to do exactly that, unwise as it is.

In what way is religious tolerance rubbish?  You opened this thread with the idea that prayer was rubbish, but that was already exposed as being qualified and asterisked to mean prayer in lieu of treatment and medicine.  (I disagree with the former but fully agree with the latter, by the way.)  An obvious argument is that religious tolerance doesn't extend to tolerance of the non-religious, but that's just hypocrisy plain and stupid on the part of those who think so.  How am I automatically intolerant of those who don't share my beliefs?

You may not go around killing people, and I've no reason to doubt that, but you still judge and apparently hate entire groups of people based only on what a tiny fraction of those groups say and do.  An example you yourself have given is Islam.  You're content to hate all Muslims everywhere, I'm led to believe, because a few extremist screwballs born and raised in a politically turbulent part of the world allowed themselves to be brainwashed by a politically savvy screwball using Islam as an excuse to commit hate.  Interesting how hate begets hate, and yours is proof that religious belief is not required.


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> You still didn't answer when it's good. Why is a little faith good?



Well, it's faith, faith in God is always a good thing, not just religiously, but psychologically. Faith makes you feel that someone is always there to help you and guide you in life, and that there is someone out there who understands your problems and helps you through them. Faith is practically your spiritual guide in life.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> And how much is too much?



The sources and cases you posted. Pretty self-explanatory.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I remember I went out riding my bike and asked god for a sign, can't remember why, and then I found a playing card lying in the road.



There you go, that was the sign, God answered your prayer, so why do you think it was all rubbish?



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> If an angel suddenly appeared and changed water into wine, that'd be a sign.



Hell yes that would be a sign, but remember, God works discreetly, you can't just pray and expect Jesus to float down from the sky and answer your prayer. (Of course that would be fucking awesome, but still.)



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Think about whatever your miracle is and whether it could possibly happen without a god.



Well, I usually keep my miracle stories to myself, but here is what happened:

Okay, I was walking into the kitchen, and my mom was working on the stove, she put a glass plate on the stove to use for cooking, so while she was cooking, the glass plate exploded, and dozens of shards of glass was flying towards her, practically covering her face, I was scared for a minute, until I saw this bright flash of light, and when all of the glass fell, my mom was still standing, no wounds, not a shard of glass inside her. My mom was baffled, too, she told me that her Guardian Angel saved her life, and I believed her because I saw it. And if there are Guardian Angels, there is God.

What makes this even weirder is that my mom told me that this was not the first time her guardian angel saved her life, I forgot the story she told me, but she said that her Guardian Angel saved her from a car accident once.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 7, 2009)

> What I wanted you to get out of the link was the idea that you shouldn't judge any group by its most extreme members. However, it's obvious you're content to do exactly that, unwise as it is.



I'm not just judging by the most extreme members. They happen to be a good target because they have the most obvious negative effect. I'm against all of the religion because none of it is plausible, however I'd ignore a group like the Amish who keep to themselves because Islamic terrorists are a far more immediate problem.



> In what way is religious tolerance rubbish? You opened this thread with the idea that prayer was rubbish, but that was already exposed as being qualified and asterisked to mean prayer in lieu of treatment and medicine. (I disagree with the former but fully agree with the latter, by the way.) An obvious argument is that religious tolerance doesn't extend to tolerance of the non-religious, but that's just hypocrisy plain and stupid on the part of those who think so. How am I automatically intolerant of those who don't share my beliefs?



Prayer is still wishful thinking so still rubbish, not because it is wishful thinking but because it is wishful thinking that is seem as actually doing something. As for why I say religious tolerance is rubbish I'll post a paragraph from another thing I wrote in the past:

  	 	 	 	 	 	  Iâ€™m all for tolerance of other peopleâ€™s views, at least as long as they arenâ€™t detrimental to others, so I can agree that people of different religions should get on peacefully. It then occurred to me that thereâ€™s a problem in the logic inherent in such an arrangement. For a large majority of religions the teachings say that unless you accept that religion you will receive some sort of punishment in the afterlife. With that most also preach compassion and mercy. Now look at this example. If you are watching the demolition of a large building and you see a young child running towards the building, what will you do? Hopefully youâ€™d stop the child so they donâ€™t run inside and get killed as it collapses. Thatâ€™s compassion. Now if you believe in your religion you must believe that the other religions are wrong, otherwise you would have joined them or started some multi-theistic sort of thing. Since people not in your religion are, in your view, going to be punished in the afterlife how can, for arguments sake, a Christian just let a Muslim child practice their religion? You must see that child as damning herself to hell. This especially is odd in mixed-religion families. You wouldnâ€™t send your child to a paedophile so why watch them descend into an eternity of torment?



> You may not go around killing people, and I've no reason to doubt that, but you still judge and apparently hate entire groups of people based only on what a tiny fraction of those groups say and do. An example you yourself have given is Islam. You're content to hate all Muslims everywhere, I'm led to believe, because a few extremist screwballs born and raised in a politically turbulent part of the world allowed themselves to be brainwashed by a politically savvy screwball using Islam as an excuse to commit hate. Interesting how hate begets hate, and yours is proof that religious belief is not required.



I don't hate muslims, I hate Islam, and all other religions. I can easily be friends with religious people but I can't just let them promote an irrational belief system, particulalrly when it's used as a justification for violence and hatred. 



> Well, it's faith, faith in God is always a good thing, not just religiously, but psychologically. Faith makes you feel that someone is always there to help you and guide you in life, and that there is someone out there who understands your problems and helps you through them. Faith is practically your spiritual guide in life.



Of course the problem is that there almost certainly isn't anyone there. If I'm going to have something as a guide it better be real or you might as well be walking blindly.



> The sources and cases you posted. Pretty self-explanatory.



Wellsure most people agree that's wrong but there's a lot of grey area between that and total pacifism. What about faith that impedes scientific research? Or is it too extreme to follow biblical commandments about putting people to death? And how much faith can you put in the Bible when it contradicts science? Should it be taken literally or not? Or different parts read differently, and how would you decide?



> There you go, that was the sign, God answered your prayer, so why do you think it was all rubbish?



Well sure I took it as a sign then but it's far more likely that someone just dropped a playing card in the road. I happened to be riding and see it there. I've also picked up tennis and golf balls I've seen lying around, they weren't signs either. It's quite a jump to take a coincidence like that and attribute it to a higher power when it can easily be explained without the supernatural.



> Hell yes that would be a sign, but remember, God works discreetly, you can't just pray and expect Jesus to float down from the sky and answer your prayer. (Of course that would be fucking awesome, but still.)



If you accept him as working discretely then you can pretty much attribute any coincidence you ever find to him. There's no particular way to distinguish whether it's god or not.



> Okay, I was walking into the kitchen, and my mom was working on the stove, she put a glass plate on the stove to use for cooking, so while she was cooking, the glass plate exploded, and dozens of shards of glass was flying towards her, practically covering her face, I was scared for a minute, until I saw this bright flash of light, and when all of the glass fell, my mom was still standing, no wounds, not a shard of glass inside her. My mom was baffled, too, she told me that her Guardian Angel saved her life, and I believed her because I saw it. And if there are Guardian Angels, there is God.



Makes a good story and I'm not in a position to say what happened or not becasue I wasn't there, although eye-witnesses are not particualrly reliable. Maybe it really happened, maybe it was a miracle but it is also possible that you just have a altered memory. People's memories are incredibly easy to change through suggestions or just natrually over time.


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## Darkwing (Aug 7, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> And how much faith can you put in the Bible when it contradicts science? Should it be taken literally or not? Or different parts read differently, and how would you decide?



The bible, I believe, shouldn't be taken literally, and different parts of the bible are read differently.

The bible really shouldn't be taken literally because a lot of the things written in the bible are written metaphorically. Heak, there are parts of the bible that describe evolution and the big bang, but are explained metaphorically, therefore, making it a bit hard to interpret. So the bible is interpreted in thousands, maybe millions, of different ways, which is what makes the book so interesting.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Well sure I took it as a sign then but it's far more likely that someone just dropped a playing card in the road. I happened to be riding and see it there. I've also picked up tennis and golf balls I've seen lying around, they weren't signs either. It's quite a jump to take a coincidence like that and attribute it to a higher power when it can easily be explained without the supernatural.



Maybe it is some sort of puzzle :S

You probably didn't understand it, but God works in mysterious ways.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> If you accept him as working discretely then you can pretty much attribute any coincidence you ever find to him. There's no particular way to distinguish whether it's god or not.



That is true, but the hard part is determining whether it is really a sign from God.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Makes a good story and I'm not in a position to say what happened or not becasue I wasn't there, although eye-witnesses are not particualrly reliable. Maybe it really happened, maybe it was a miracle but it is also possible that you just have a altered memory. People's memories are incredibly easy to change through suggestions or just natrually over time.



An altered memory? No, I tend to have a very good memory, almost photographic, so I trust myself enough to know that it really did happen.


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## Get-dancing (Aug 7, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Don't be a shamed of what you are.



Being gay isn't 'what you are'. I wouldn't even say things like being black or english sums up 'what you are'. It's just a rough outline of who you like to have sex with and how, something you do and a preference. Same way it dosen't sum up what I am because I prefer younger girls. Not too young mind

Also whilst I'm here I shall sum up a common misconception Mayfur clearly follows; Allah simply means 'god' in arabic. He is the same god that Christians worship, the only difference being the prefered language to say his name in. Afterall Christianity and Islam are both offshoots of Judaism.


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## ArielMT (Aug 7, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I'm not just judging by the most extreme members. They happen to be a good target because they have the most obvious negative effect. I'm against all of the religion because none of it is plausible, however I'd ignore a group like the Amish who keep to themselves because Islamic terrorists are a far more immediate problem.



While opposing terrorism is a noble and worthwhile goal, doing so because they claim any one religion as their motivation makes your reason for opposing them just as invalid as their reason for opposing you.  Terrorism is always an immediate problem regardless of motivation.  Also, I have never so much as heard rumor of any religion whose followers universally preached violence against the general public; such have always been confined to relatively tiny cults.  Feel free to point me to evidence to the contrary, and I'll read it at my leisure.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Prayer is still wishful thinking so still rubbish, not because it is wishful thinking but because it is wishful thinking that is seem as actually doing something. As for why I say religious tolerance is rubbish I'll post a paragraph from another thing I wrote in the past:
> 
> Iâ€™m all for tolerance of other peopleâ€™s views, at least as long as they arenâ€™t detrimental to others, so I can agree that people of different religions should get on peacefully. It then occurred to me that thereâ€™s a problem in the logic inherent in such an arrangement. For a large majority of religions the teachings say that unless you accept that religion you will receive some sort of punishment in the afterlife. With that most also preach compassion and mercy. Now look at this example. If you are watching the demolition of a large building and you see a young child running towards the building, what will you do? Hopefully youâ€™d stop the child so they donâ€™t run inside and get killed as it collapses. Thatâ€™s compassion. Now if you believe in your religion you must believe that the other religions are wrong, otherwise you would have joined them or started some multi-theistic sort of thing. Since people not in your religion are, in your view, going to be punished in the afterlife how can, for arguments sake, a Christian just let a Muslim child practice their religion? You must see that child as damning herself to hell. This especially is odd in mixed-religion families. You wouldnâ€™t send your child to a paedophile so why watch them descend into an eternity of torment?


 
It's possible to interpret the scriptures of Abrahamic religions as claiming a monopoly on spiritual truth and spiritual ways, aye, and certainly in Christianity's case the loudest denominations do just that.  I don't know enough about Jewish or Islamic scriptures (and absolutely nothing about Bahai scriptures) to know how precisely they make the same claim of monopoly, or if the largest sects actually do or not, so I've no choice but to plead ignorance there.

Regarding other major religions, neither Hinduism nor Buddhism make any outright claims of monopolizing spiritual truths that I can see, presenting themselves only as valid ways instead of exclusive ways.  That leaves as the only significant major religion unaddressed Paganism, and what I'm finding is that many Pagan ways oppose the idea of claiming to have the only truth or of being the only way, with virtually all Neopagan ways stating that expressly.

As for the notion of eternal punishment for non-believers, that belongs almost entirely to Christianity and Islam (though I'm not so sure about the latter), not to all the world's major religions.  And even within those two religions, you'll find sects and individuals who reject that notion, instead reserving eternal punishment only for those who profess a faith having such a concept as their own while committing what that same faith calls heresy.

Personally, just because I have a religious belief doesn't mean that I would claim to have a monopoly on valid religious beliefs.  I find the idea repulsively vain and hypocritical.  What's right for me is right for me and not necessarily anyone else.

I see your point with this example of how you could believe religious tolerance to be rubbish, but it's as invalid as the other burning house example commonly used by Christian evangelists.  I'm _not_ seeing how your quoted statement relates to _prayer_ being rubbish.  Was I supposed to draw a connection?



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I don't hate muslims, I hate Islam, and all other religions. I can easily be friends with religious people but I can't just let them promote an irrational belief system, particulalrly when it's used as a justification for violence and hatred.



I'm not sure how one can hate a religion without hating those who believe it.  Or is this like hating the sin but not the sinner, or hating American Idol without hating those who watch it?


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## Lobar (Aug 8, 2009)

ArielMT said:


> I deliberately avoided the use of the word "atheist."  My understanding is that an atheist is a person, whether religious or not, who simply doesn't believe any gods exist.  Not limited to those who aren't religious.
> 
> I'm open to suggestions about what qualifier I should've used instead of "militant" to describe one person, though.  But please don't think for a moment that I use any word but "atheist" to describe atheists.



I quoted you, but my post wasn't targeted at anyone in particular.  Branding atheists as "militant" is an irritatingly popular tactic to dismiss them out of hand without actually listening to anything they say.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 8, 2009)

A bit more on prayer itself. In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins mentions a study on prayer by the Templeton Foundation which found no difference between people who were prayed for and those who weren't as well as a negative effect on those who knew that they were being prayed for, compared with those that were unaware. I'm not sure if that was a unique finding or whether I misread an article a while ago about knowing about prayer having a positive effect.

In addition Dawkins mentions a story about a woman accusing a doctor of malpractice for not praying for her husband.



> The bible, I believe, shouldn't be taken literally, and different parts of the bible are read differently.



If that's the case it can't be relied on because there's no agreed upon way of deciding which parts are meant to be read in what way. If it's so open to interpreation then it's not a constant and unchanging word but a text that can be interpreted to say almost anything that you want.



> You probably didn't understand it, but God works in mysterious ways.



Of course, a favourite saying of religious people. If prayers are answered or you see something amazing it shows that god exists. If they aren't answered or you see evil or anything like that it's just that we don't understand god's plan. It makes it impossible to doubt god.



> That is true, but the hard part is determining whether it is really a sign from God.



Which you can't do if god is being mysterious. It's a ridiculous state of affairs.



> An altered memory? No, I tend to have a very good memory, almost photographic, so I trust myself enough to know that it really did happen.



People aren't infallible. It's quite hard to see where things are going when they explode too. It's slightly on the fast side. Even if it did happen why attribute it to god or an angel? 



> While opposing terrorism is a noble and worthwhile goal, doing so because they claim any one religion as their motivation makes your reason for opposing them just as invalid as their reason for opposing you. Terrorism is always an immediate problem regardless of motivation. Also, I have never so much as heard rumor of any religion whose followers universally preached violence against the general public; such have always been confined to relatively tiny cults. Feel free to point me to evidence to the contrary, and I'll read it at my leisure.



I'm not opposing terrorism because of their reasons. I'm pretty much against all violence. What I was against is religion and religious terrorists offer a very visible example of the evils religion can motivate. And I know religion isn't the only reason people commit acts of terror but at times it is specifically related to their religious beliefs, which are unjustifiable beliefs. I don't know of religions that preach violence but in the bible there are many passages that promote it.



> Regarding other major religions, neither Hinduism nor Buddhism make any outright claims of monopolizing spiritual truths that I can see, presenting themselves only as valid ways instead of exclusive ways. That leaves as the only significant major religion unaddressed Paganism, and what I'm finding is that many Pagan ways oppose the idea of claiming to have the only truth or of being the only way, with virtually all Neopagan ways stating that expressly.



I'm mostly familiar with the Abrahamic religions, as are most people in the Western world. I'm not actually too sure if there are religious terrorists in the other religions, I certainly don't remember hearing about them. 



> As for the notion of eternal punishment for non-believers, that belongs almost entirely to Christianity and Islam (though I'm not so sure about the latter), not to all the world's major religions. And even within those two religions, you'll find sects and individuals who reject that notion, instead reserving eternal punishment only for those who profess a faith having such a concept as their own while committing what that same faith calls heresy.



They don't all have punishments but most ill have a negative effect for non-believers. Believing Christians have to expect all non-Christians to be barred from Heaven, the only way in being through Jesus Christ and accepting him as your saviour. To then let others practice another religion is either exceptionally callous or downright cruel. African religions are mostly about ancestor worship, now with Christianity mixed in, and if you ignore the ancestors you'll have bad luck. I think it's Buddhism that has the reincarnation thing so if you live a bad life then they'll expect you to be reincarnated as a cockroach or something. 



> Personally, just because I have a religious belief doesn't mean that I would claim to have a monopoly on valid religious beliefs. I find the idea repulsively vain and hypocritical. What's right for me is right for me and not necessarily anyone else.



How can you fell that though? If the Christian god is the right one then the others do not exist. Or do you think that Christian's are judged by the Christian god, atheists just disappear and Norsemen go to Valhalla?



> I see your point with this example of how you could believe religious tolerance to be rubbish, but it's as invalid as the other burning house example commonly used by Christian evangelists. I'm _not_ seeing how your quoted statement relates to _prayer_ being rubbish.  Was I supposed to draw a connection?



This isn't all about prayer any more. It's gone to the whole question of god.



> I'm not sure how one can hate a religion without hating those who believe it. Or is this like hating the sin but not the sinner, or hating American Idol without hating those who watch it?



Just like that. Any one person is bound to hold thoughts that agree and disagree with mine, I can't judge them completely on one aspect of them. Although I know some people do.


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## ArielMT (Aug 8, 2009)

@Lobar:  Ah, I see.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> They don't all have punishments but most ill have a negative effect for non-believers. Believing Christians have to expect all non-Christians to be barred from Heaven, the only way in being through Jesus Christ and accepting him as your saviour. To then let others practice another religion is either exceptionally callous or downright cruel. African religions are mostly about ancestor worship, now with Christianity mixed in, and if you ignore the ancestors you'll have bad luck.



Whether Christians believe non-Christians have a chance of getting into the Christian Heaven or not would seem to be irrelevant, since one would think they have no intention of even trying, so that point is moot even to the religious.

I think you just described Santeria with that last bit.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I think it's Buddhism that has the reincarnation thing so if you live a bad life then they'll expect you to be reincarnated as a cockroach or something.



I didn't think Buddhism had a concept of superhuman reward or punishment. Karma and reincarnation in Buddhism are simply natural and neutral consequences of actions and past lives.



Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Or do you think that Christian's are judged by the Christian god, atheists just disappear and Norsemen go to Valhalla?



Grossly oversimplified, yes.


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 8, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> How can you fell that though? If the Christian god is the right one then the others do not exist. Or do you think that Christian's are judged by the Christian god, atheists just disappear and Norsemen go to Valhalla?


I WANT TO GO TO VALHALLA. BATTLES AND FEASTS ON A DAILY BASIS...

I am actually suprised that Norse religion didn't spread too far, or even have a big revival, because if it did, Every American would be having a viking funeral so long as Nascar or the Superbowl wasn't on...


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 8, 2009)

Darkwing said:


> That could be true, but, I believe it is for a small minority of the fandom.
> 
> Look, crackers, it is not like the entire world believes in God, so the fact that they are in the fandom make no difference, and the majority of the fandom is bi, btw.
> 
> ...



Oh, aren't you just cutest little chimp troop :3


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 8, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> No, your point is to throw a red herring argument at someone who dares to hold a contrary opinion to your own. Whatever my sexuality happens to be has no bearing on my opinions and *is no business of a self-important patronising snot-nosed git.*



You're gay. You won't admit it because that means I am right about you.

You guys can not handle conflicting opinions. You are a great example of that. Stop being so closed minded.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 8, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Mayfurrs' argument won't be proven right or wrong by whether or not s/he's gay...so the connection would be irrelevant.



Do you know what argument I am talking about?


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 8, 2009)

I except all opinions as being equally biased and full of shit. Hence the reason why they are "Personal Opinions." They are nothing more than Subjective Perceptions, and so long as they are such, I am right because I perceive things as being right, and you are right because you perceive things as being right... But neither of us are inherently right or wrong...


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 8, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Do you know what argument I am talking about?



Your first argument,


Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> It proves I'm right about furries. Most are anger atheists that hate religion and see it as nothing more than anti-gay, because, as we all know, most furries in the fandom are gay.



Then your response to Mayfurr,


Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You resent religion so you are going to say prayer is to blame.



Your next response to Mayfurr,



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You gay by any chance?



Your next response to Mayfurr,


Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Don't be a shamed of what you are.



Your response to me, when I called out the red herring,



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No it's not. It goes into what I said in my first post. Most people in the fandom are gay and resent religion, and my point was that most of that resentment comes from being gay. It only seems to be this little circle jerk group that think they insult and make false accusations with out backing up anything they say. At least I say why I say what I say.



Then your most recent response to Mayfurr



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You're gay. You won't admit it because that means I am right about you.
> 
> You guys can not handle conflicting opinions. You (Mayfurr) are a great example of that. Stop being so closed minded.




1. You claimed most furries are angry, gay atheists, and resent religion
2. You claimed that Mayfurr resents religion, because s/he blames prayer for the problem. 

Which is the Red Herring argument right there, you're diverting Mayfurrs argument of blaming prayer for the problem, to another argument; that Mayfurr resents religion (which is irrelevant), and even further divert the argument to try and circle back to #1 by trying to claim and confirm, and then claiming that Mayfurr is gay (which is still irrelevant) - Which I'm not entirely sure why, because Mayfurrs argument would not be proven right or wrong by what his/her orientation is. 

3. You asked if Mayfurr was gay, which would coincide with #2 and confirm #1
4. You tried to lure Mayfurr into stating his/her orientation, or mock him/her.
5. You restated #1.
6. You attempt to ridicule Mayfurr, or expose him/her without any actual proof, and attempt to lump him/her into #1.

I know you were also trying to argue that neglect was to blame, and that thoughts don't hurt, but it was far overshadowed by everything else you were saying, which is what I laid out above. You stopped claiming that neglect was to blame, and that thoughts don't hurt, to further pursue Mayfurrs' orientation - Even possibly falsely claiming his/her orientation, which has zero bearing on the topic at hand (which is _prayer_), and you have insisted on completely derailing the topic by the two responses at the top of this page (13).

Now, I do believe that prayer, and those who teach prayer over acting, are foolish, and fools.


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## shakyartist (Aug 8, 2009)

Simple answer to all of this. There is a time and place for everything. If you do pray, at least be smart and do it when you know for sure that there is absolutely nothing nothing else you can do.


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## Mojotaian (Aug 9, 2009)

Rai Toku said:


> Faith without works is dead. Says so in the Bible. God's not going to do anything for you if you won't get off your ass and put in some effort. A doctor may pray for an operation to be a success, but if he doesn't go in there and do his best to make it so, nothing's going to change. A man may pray to win the lottery, but if he buys no ticket, how will he?


 

No, this is simply the loophole that the religious occults would have you believe. This statement made by the bible is a safeguard which keeps doubt from people who can put 1 and 1 together and look at it no further.
It just keeps you guessing and guessing as to whether "God" really did help or not. 
Those with "faith" will undoubtedly believe it was gods doing
Those who actually think "Hey wait a minute!" will believe something else...

All this is is breaking it down to personal belief.


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## Mojotaian (Aug 9, 2009)

Lol, religious topics always seem to go on for eons, that's because it's so god damn fun to find flaws in such things.

Positive aspect on religion:

Religion is a support for those who need it and for those who fear that life is after all, meaningless.
With the warring and the fighting it keeps things interesting between different cultures.

Negative aspect: 

People made religion.
People are stupid.
Therefore religion is stupid.

ALERT: The state of the world is being compromised by religious acts, we must end this now! Humanity is turning into a bunch of crazed wild animals at the promises of gods! They must be destroyed!!!

The way I think of this, I don't really believe either way, just fun to post. Though, i can understand why I want to be a God-Killer...

Interesting question for you religious fanatics. 

It has been stated that "Technology is magic". 
I found that your 7th circle (or close to it) is reserved for sorcerors and users of magic.
Does this mean that everone here and everyone in a modern society is going to go to hell!? EVERYONE!? Including YOU?

(Interesting fact)

In the Medieval period, perhaps earlier. Anyone who seemed to be excessively talented or very very smart in most areas were considered to be sorcerors because humans couldn't explain why they were smarter than the average human. That's all religion was, a simple explanation for those who couldn't accept that things just 'were'. Not much has changed, except that now the general public are calling YOU sorcerors.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 9, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> You're gay. You won't admit it because that means I am right about you.



No, all you've proved is that you're a jumped up arrogant twat with delusions of grandeur, who is so inept at defending any _logical _argument that he has to change the subject and try to take "credit" for "outing" someone in order to wave his e-penis about - which, by the way, is so microscopic that we'd need a scanning electron microscope to even get a hint as to where it might be located. We could try your head seeing as you seem to be thinking with your dick, but it would appear your head is so big we'd need to put something in orbit around it to do the scanning.

Now why don't you run along and play in traffic or something equally productive - *adults *are talking here.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 9, 2009)

One thing that has been consistently annoying me, as it's ever present: Jehovah's Witnesses and their resentment of blood transfusion. Freedom to exercise your religion etc. aside, why are JW (Jey-Dubya, hurr hurr hurr) parents allowed to deny blood transfusions for their children?

Usually, a blood transfusion is essential to saving the kid's life and even then, JWs deny the treatment to their offspring. How is that compatible with the right to live?

It's mind boggling. Technically, you can subvert the decision by going to the appropriate court, but often it takes too long or the doctors forget about that possibility. Shouldn't parental rights be suspended automatically by law, whenever they threaten the life and/or health of the child?


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## Get-dancing (Aug 9, 2009)

Oh a socialist and a neo-conservative attempting to squable about religion whilst only making childish 8th grade-esque verbal missles regarding penis size and sexual prefrences. Reminds me of the most recent US candidate debates.

Can we do 'yo mamma' jokes now?


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 9, 2009)

> Whether Christians believe non-Christians have a chance of getting into the Christian Heaven or not would seem to be irrelevant, since one would think they have no intention of even trying, so that point is moot even to the religious.



I think it is relevant if they think other people are going to heaven or not. If they believe there is only one god, as most do, and that there's only one way into heaven then they must believe that others are going to be punished for not accepting Jesus. That's just simple stuff directly from their faith. The part that gets to me is that if their tolerant of other religions it means that they don't care about helping others. It's like watching people burn to death but not trying to help them. People even try to help people who attempt suicide.



> Grossly oversimplified, yes.



Isn't that what happened in Discworld? But anyway, as nice as it sounds it's highly unlikely and there's no reason that would be so. If it were then god would be created by humans.



> It's mind boggling. Technically, you can subvert the decision by going to the appropriate court, but often it takes too long or the doctors forget about that possibility. Shouldn't parental rights be suspended automatically by law, whenever they threaten the life and/or health of the child?



Probably but religion has been given a free ride and automatic respect, regardless of how stupid it is. The discovery of blood types and that destroyed the idea of royal blood, somehow religion didn't quite catch on.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 9, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Can we do 'yo mamma' jokes now?



I don't know - _can _we?

Nah, can't be bothered. <yawn>


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 9, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Your first argument,
> 
> 
> Then your response to Mayfurr,
> ...



So it's wrong for me to attempt to get answers?


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 9, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> No, all you've proved is that you're a jumped up arrogant twat with delusions of grandeur, who is so inept at defending any _logical _argument that he has to change the subject and try to take "credit" for "outing" someone in order to wave his e-penis about - which, by the way, is so microscopic that we'd need a scanning electron microscope to even get a hint as to where it might be located. We could try your head seeing as you seem to be thinking with your dick, but it would appear your head is so big we'd need to put something in orbit around it to do the scanning.
> 
> Now why don't you run along and play in traffic or something equally productive - *adults *are talking here.



See by you switching to insults it shows that I have struck a nerve. It also backs up my point.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 9, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Oh a socialist and a neo-conservative attempting to squable about religion whilst only making childish 8th grade-esque verbal missles regarding penis size and sexual prefrences. Reminds me of the most recent US candidate debates.
> 
> Can we do 'yo mamma' jokes now?



I have not made any insults to him.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 9, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> I have not made any insults to him.



_Yes! Yes you have! Several times:

First, you alluded that Mayfurr was gay - That's insulting.
Second, you asked if Mayfurr was gay - That's insulting in the context.
Third, you attempted to mock Mayfurr for being gay - That's insulting.
Fourth, you insisted Mayfurr was gay - Still insulting
Fifth, You flat-out called Mayfurr gay, and attempted to ridicule him/her for supposedly being in the closet, and somehow assumed that this made you correct - Even though everything in this thread, that you're basing your comments on, are your own assumptions.
Sixth, you insulted gays in general
Seventh, you attempted to insult Mayfurr for being gay, and supposedly not being able to handle conflicting opinions
Eighth, you called Mayfurr closed minded.

You don't have to call someone a name, to insult them._



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> See by you switching to insults it shows that I have struck a nerve. It also backs up my point.



_Mayfurrs' response doesn't prove your point, or back it up, but it's completely well-earned on Mayfurrs' side, because of how piss-poor you've acted towards him/her, and what you've said. You think it does back up or prove your point, but most people, gay or not, would be pretty insulted by the way you acted, and by the way you responded to Mayfurr - Whether or not they're gay.  _

_Do you really think that *only* Mayfurr, or gays are insulted by that?

Oh wait no, you don't think Mayfurr has been insulted at all._



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> So it's wrong for me to attempt to get answers?



_Stop trying to act innocent, seriously, you've insulted Mayfurr directly many times, and pretty much everybodies intelligence in this thread by acting like you've done nothing wrong. 

_I really do hate to just barrel down on someone, but you _really_ deserved to get called out for your disrespectful, and derogatory bullshit.


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## LizardKing (Aug 9, 2009)

Keep trollin' trollin' trollin' YEAH


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## Tycho (Aug 9, 2009)

Crackers is such an irredeemable fucktard and obvious troll I don't understand why people still bother to respond to him.


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## Aden (Aug 10, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> _Yes! Yes you have! Several times:
> 
> First, you alluded that Mayfurr was gay - That's insulting.
> Fourth, you insisted Mayfurr was gay - Still insulting_


_

Ooohhh, might want to rephrase those._


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## Mojotaian (Aug 10, 2009)

OOOOOOOHHH!
A troll that is found to be sensitive to religion... you have yourself one big flaw, i would advise that you watch your step!
SICK HIM BOYS!


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## Get-dancing (Aug 10, 2009)

Aden said:


> Ooohhh, might want to rephrase those.



Calling a straight person 'gay' is an insult, get used to it!


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## Endless Humiliation (Aug 10, 2009)

*Cobra Commander* is a fictional character from the G.I. Joe franchise. He appears in the toyline, animated series (the 1985 and 1989 incarnations and the _Sigma 6_ animated series), comic books, video games, and movie as the usual principal antagonist. The character was created by Marvel Comics writer Larry Hama.
 Cobra Commander is portrayed by Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the 2009 live-action film, _G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra_.






FAF Awesome Thread, Great Job!


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## Aden (Aug 10, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Calling a straight person 'gay' is an insult, get used to it!



Why?


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## Get-dancing (Aug 10, 2009)

Aden said:


> Why?



Same way it's insulting to call someone the oppisite sex.


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## Azure (Aug 10, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> So it's wrong for me to attempt to get answers?


Because you won't accept one, even if it was right. Because you are retarded.



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> See by you switching to insults it shows that I have struck a nerve. It also backs up my point.


What point?  That by blanket stereotyping you try to win an argument?  You really are retarded.



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> I have not made any insults to him.


Correct, being called gay isn't an insult, but it could be a hate crime. I'm calling the cops.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 10, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> _Yes! Yes you have! Several times:_
> 
> _First, you alluded that Mayfurr was gay - That's insulting._
> _Second, you asked if Mayfurr was gay - That's insulting in the context._
> ...


 
Oh, okay, this is you assuming that I'm secretly insulting him by asking what is his sexual preference? 



> _Mayfurrs' response doesn't prove your point, or back it up, but it's completely well-earned on Mayfurrs' side, because of how piss-poor you've acted towards him/her, and what you've said. You think it does back up or prove your point, but most people, gay or not, would be pretty insulted by the way you acted, and by the way you responded to Mayfurr - Whether or not they're gay. _
> 
> _Do you really think that *only* Mayfurr, or gays are insulted by that?_
> 
> _Oh wait no, you don't think Mayfurr has been insulted at all._


 
He's insulted by very thing I say, and why would gays be an insulted, unless they find furry insulting? And I'm not calling him names while he's there insulting me with names and so forth, and you are giving him the pass because you think I deserve it. You got a double standard.



> _Stop trying to act innocent, seriously, you've insulted Mayfurr directly many times, and pretty much everybodies intelligence in this thread by acting like you've done nothing wrong. _
> 
> I really do hate to just barrel down on someone, but you _really_ deserved to get called out for your disrespectful, and derogatory bullshit.


 
Deserved? Huh. I was right. And what bullshit? I asked him something and he said no. I pushed. I pushed like reporter would push. I pushed like you are pushing right now. I'm not being disrespectful or derogatory. I asked and stated my opinion, and I always say it's my opinion. I never say it's fact. I try to stay open-minded. 
You on the other hand. You're the one who is attacking my character while I'm acting polite to you and Mayfurr. I did it to prove a point. I had a contradicting view and as long as I kept it up the chances of opposition becoming irate and disrespectful would go up. You two proved it. 



> _acting like you've done nothing wrong_


 
Oh shit! Bu-but. HAHAHAHA! I didn't know you were such a crusading moralfag of justice on the internet? I love you furries :3 Okay. Now I might push it for teh lulz.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 10, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Crackers is such an irredeemable fucktard and obvious troll I don't understand why people still bother to respond to him.


 
Shut up. You love me.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 10, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Correct, being called gay isn't an insult, but it could be a hate crime. I'm calling the cops.


 
Asking if someone is gay is a hate crime? God, I love you furries.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 10, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> *Cobra Commander* is a fictional character from the G.I. Joe franchise. He appears in the toyline, animated series (the 1985 and 1989 incarnations and the _Sigma 6_ animated series), comic books, video games, and movie as the usual principal antagonist. The character was created by Marvel Comics writer Larry Hama.
> Cobra Commander is portrayed by Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the 2009 live-action film, _G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra_.
> 
> 
> ...


 
He got it. 



Aden said:


> Ooohhh, might want to rephrase those.


 
LAWL.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 10, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> ...words



Right...Whatever. You've successfully derailed a thread that opposes your close-minded viewpoint, congrats sir; you win two Internets. The tubes will be delivered by Wednesday.

(Troll or not, this is how I perceive him to act; so it makes me chuckle.)


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