# Atheism, Theism, and Furrism, is that a word?



## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

Well in order to not pollute on topic threads as was happening, I decided to put one here in off topic.   
I have noted that Furs are more than double the national average for Atheism of about 14-15% and over half the members if you include agnostics and pagens.   
So Theists can vent on me here instead of on the thread that prompted me to make this one...http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/117655-If-anthros-existed-in-real-life-would-you-date-one 
So continue to cuss me out and insult me personally if you need to.   even though I have not and do not intend to do that to any members here regardless of how we may differ in our views
I am curious to read folks reasoning as to why Atheists have such a high presence here.


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## Lunar (Apr 25, 2012)

I would say it's 'cause we're rational thinkers, but then I remember furries 

:V


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## Metalmeerkat (Apr 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I would say it's 'cause we're rational thinkers, but then I remember furries
> 
> :V



Why the ':V'?


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## Kluuvdar (Apr 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I would say it's 'cause we're rational thinkers, but then I remember furries
> 
> :V



Pretty much sums it up for my opinion too.


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## Ariosto (Apr 25, 2012)

Oh, I wouldn't know, I just assume it's a thing of the new generations in more developped countries.


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## LizardKing (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Well in order to not pollute on topic threads as was happening, I decided to put one here in off topic.
> I have noted that Furs are more than double the national average for Atheism of about 14-15% and over half the members if you include agnostics and pagens.



Some source would be good, but lets run with it.



soutthpaw said:


> So Theists can vent on me here instead of on the thread that prompted me to make this one...http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/117655-If-anthros-existed-in-real-life-would-you-date-one



What. 



soutthpaw said:


> So continue to cuss me out and insult me personally if you need to.   even though I have not and do not intend to do that to any members here regardless of how we may differ in our views



...are we still talking about atheists or



soutthpaw said:


> I am curious to read folks reasoning as to why Atheists have such a high presence here.



So is that your question? Is that the topic of this thread? What the hell is going on with the previous 2 sections?


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## Metalmeerkat (Apr 25, 2012)

To be serious, I'd guess because the more religious conservatives have a smaller claim to the furry population. Probably a case of the folks that tend to be more religious tend to have a smaller chance of being infected with the furry disease.

But despite me being athiest, I am not a big fan of religion bashing. It is what it is for what it is, and I don't want to bother saying if that's good or not. Ain't my place to say so.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

Maybe we should just start our own Church of Furries.   There is another good Furry book I can recommend,  its called "The First Book of Lapism"  about a geneticist that starts a lapist church.  Its a really good story and read.  I got it via Kindle.   What is interesting is that its a Humanist church.. http://www.amazon.com/The-First-Boo...F7SO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335364609&sr=8-1


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## LizardKing (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Maybe we should just start our own Church of Furries.



oh dear sweet fender save us all


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## Ariosto (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Maybe we should just start our own Church of Furries.



Just so the shitstorm doesn't begin, mind, please, to explain why you consider it a possibility that will accomplish... whatever it's mean to? Why did you get the idea or think it could be something to try?

EDIT: No harm intended, I'm just asking.


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## Elim Garak (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Well in order to not pollute on topic threads as was happening, I decided to put one here in off topic.
> I have noted that Furs are more than double the national average for Atheism of about 14-15% and over half the members if you include agnostics and pagens.
> So Theists can vent on me here instead of on the thread that prompted me to make this one...http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/117655-If-anthros-existed-in-real-life-would-you-date-one
> So continue to cuss me out and insult me personally if you need to.   even though I have not and do not intend to do that to any members here regardless of how we may differ in our views
> I am curious to read folks reasoning as to why Atheists have such a high presence here.


National average of atheism is way higher in the Netherlands.
​ Catholicism (27,0%)
​ Protestantism (16,6%)
​ Islam (5,7%)
​ Hinduism (1,3%)
​ Buddhism (1,0%)
​ Non-religious (48,4%)
Maybe it has to do with open mindness? Lacking of the religious brainwashing as a child?
Furries are supposed to be more open minded but they aren't all the time.
It's hard to say really. All I can say is I hate dealing with extremist religious people and people who are against progress of science(Stemcell research for one), blur out hate speech to people who are "different" and try and get shit like creationism taught in schools.
Sadly it happens way too often.
I am not saying every religious person is an extremist.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

I did read that the USA is the most religious country in the world outside of religious based nations, also read that only about 10% of Brits attend church regularly.  I think that was in the Newsweek article I mentioned...  The book I mentioned made me think of the Furry church idea.


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## Ariosto (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> I did read that the USA is the most religious country in the world outside of religious based nations, also read that only about 10% of Brits attend church regularly.  I think that was in the Newsweek article I mentioned...  The book I mentioned made me think of the Furry church idea.



Stil, what purpose would this accomplish? Are you implying Religion is a necessity?


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## Ikrit (Apr 25, 2012)

Caroline Dax said:


> Maybe it has to do with open mindness? Lacking of the religious brainwashing as a child?
> .



it has everything to do with that

when your a child, who is the first person you go to for answers? your parents


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

According to wikipedia many furries are science fiction fans. Science fiction fans tend to think more and have a much more creative imagination.


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## Kitutal (Apr 25, 2012)

Some random theories, just to get back towards the topic. Lots of younger people, in general the older generations are more often religious. Plenty of people with interests at odds with religious teachings, particularly in the way of what many religions would class as 'sexual deviancy'.
Really, if you gather together a bunch of gay porn loving teenagers from around the world, how many of them are going to be deeply religious, and how many of those are going to admit it and be able to hold firmly to their beliefs whilst immersed in this sort of culture? Slightly less than average.


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## BRN (Apr 25, 2012)

It's really pretty simple.


The "national average" features people of _all_ ages.
Furries do not represent "all ages". 

Religious identity is a generational trend, and with the advent of higher quality education through developed countries, adolescents these days only require empirical knowledge to succeed. 

This wasn't true of older generations, which are still yet to die off [if you'll forgive the crass wording]. Give it forty or fifty years, and you'll find that the national average will look a lot like today's religious identity of adolescents.


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## Lobar (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't think it's just furries that have a higher concentration of atheists, but "internet people" in general.  I can think of a few good possible reasons for this, and its probably a mix of all of them:


Atheists in religious communities tend to be isolated if not ostracized, and are more likely to turn to the internet for social interaction with like-minded people.

Atheism is more popular amongst the youngest demographics, who also spend more time on the internet.

The internet is an information-dense environment, and people who spend more time on the internet are more likely to learn things that lead them to abandon religion.


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Ah, well I am currently sitting in the ER with my son who has a broken elbow after falling at home. Now 6 hrs later I'm still here.


 May they have a speedy recovery.



soutthpaw said:


> As for Lewd it is a vague term that can easily be applied to a bunch of people running around in collars and fursuits.


 Alright, you have an _example_ of this horribly, terribly "Anti-Furry" law being used to disassemble / arrest a Furmeet there? I assume you do, consider you made extreme emphasis including enlarged, reddened letters when typing it.



soutthpaw said:


> conservative community that would view it as immoral combined with widespread negative media portrayal. Of furries.


 Heavens to mercy! A negative opinion by a small niche of people? About a fandom! Good heavens, you might only have to go through what the Rock / Comic / D&D / Tabletop Wargaming / Videogame fandoms have gone through, but at a much reduced scale! Mercy me! 

Fun fact: The media doesn't really give a damn about slamming the Furry fandom. Or, if it does, it's so grossly incompetent that not once have they decided "You know what? Fuck it. Let's just stream a hour of sans-filter Inkbunny, SoFurry, FurAffinity, e621.net, Dammit, fChan, and Paws." That right there - no need to edit anything, purposefully dig for scum, or any of that - would be a "widespread negative media portrayal".



soutthpaw said:


> I guess if u cannot come up with a reasonable argument


 The irony here is palpable.



soutthpaw said:


> I have noted that Furs are more than double the national average for Atheism of about 14-15% and over half the members if you include agnostics and pagens.


 First, an important thing to keep in mind is that not all Furries are from the United States. Second, I have a sinking feeling you're about to explain to us why you think paganism is a religion that is inherently superior to that of the "false god" religions you brought up in the other thread. Third, kudos on toning down your signature to be slightly more tactful.

Also, I see you ignore the other demographic points I brought up in the other thread: That almost 3/4 the fandom falls between 10 and 24, that roughly 40% of the fandom doesn't consider itself fully human, that politically the majority of the members lean toward anarchism...

Teenagers / Young Adults who think there's more to them, that the current system must be brought down, and do not take part in any major organized religions. Where have I seen such things before...



soutthpaw said:


> So continue to cuss me out and insult me personally if you need to. even though I have not and do not intend to do that to any members here regardless of how we may differ in our views


 Says the one who until very recently called the Bible and Koran weapons of mass destruction (has now toned down to "simply" a tool to justify hate), said the majority of the world religion worships false gods, has said that they feel non-existant fictional races would be superior to humans because - if nothing else - "religion!", tried to use "your god" in an argument (humorously enough, against an atheist), etcetera. But you obviously don't mean to take jabs at people.


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## Kluuvdar (Apr 25, 2012)

Attaman, you are my hero.


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## Cain (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm an Animist.

Yeah, let that fuck your statistics up.

I used to be an aethiest, and before that roman catholic (when I was like 10)


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## Dragonfurry (Apr 25, 2012)

Maybe its because the fact that people want to think logically and not let scriptures and writings from dead men over thousands of years ago rule our lives?

Other than that I think its because a combination of the internet, science explaining alot of things that religion cant, and overall just how religion has developed over the years to brainwash you into following their gods and their words of humility.


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## Thatch (Apr 25, 2012)

Dragonfurry said:


> Maybe its because the fact that people want to think logically and not let scriptures and writings from dead men over thousands of years ago rule our lives?



As attaman pointed out, it's mostly adolescents and young adults that are "FUCK THE RULES". Logic has nothing to do with it.


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## Kitutal (Apr 25, 2012)

Attaman said:


> First, an important thing to keep in mind is that not all Furries are from the United States. Second, I have a sinking feeling you're about to explain to us why you think paganism is a religion that is inherently superior to that of the "false god" religions you brought up in the other thread. Third, kudos on toning down your signature to be slightly more tactful.


I think the point with paganism is that that one particular god is still worshipped by more than half the world's population, but yet substantially less so here where a whole range of other belief systems have gained a lot more followers.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

Thatch said:


> As attaman pointed out, it's mostly adolescents and young adults that are "FUCK THE RULES". Logic has nothing to do with it.


Actually logic has a lot to do with it.  What happens when folks think about everything the Bible says.  Logically and sicentifically it does not add up.  Then you are told that you need to believe it based on faith not fact.   one saying I like is this:  _What is the difference between Philosophy and Religion?  Philosophy is questions that may never be answered, Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  
_Religion teaches that you must believe because it is the word of God and Faith means taking what cannot be proven as fact:
The Biblical Definition Of Faith 
 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1, KJV). 

Hebrews 11:1 is probably the most concise definition of faith found in the Bible. It is considered the classical definition of faith. Faith is both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses. 
source link:
http://thegloryland.com/index.php?p=1_11_The-biblical-definition-of-faith

If you can accept that which cannot be proven by any modern science, logic or evidence then you have Religious faith.  If you cannot accept as truth that which cannot be proven by modern science, logic or evidence then you have Atheism.    As several have pointed out, as we and our technology and knowledge advance it provides more opportunity to question ancient doctrine.  After all the Bible was written by the same men who believed the Earth was flat and the center of the universe.

​


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## Randy-Darkshade (Apr 25, 2012)

Furrism....No, just capital fucking No. Furry is not some fucking belief.



soutthpaw said:


> Actually logic has a lot to do with it.  What  happens when folks think about everything the Bible says.  Logically and  sicentifically it does not add up.



Religion lacks logic, science uses logic.



> Then you are told that you need to  believe it based on faith not fact.   one saying I like is this:  _What  is the difference between Philosophy and Religion?  Philosophy is  questions that may never be answered, Religion is answers that may never  be questioned.
> _Religion teaches that you must believe because it is the word of God and Faith means taking what cannot be proven as fact:
> The Biblical Definition Of Faith​




In simple terms religion teaches you to be a complete moron.


​


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Actually logic has a lot to do with it.


 And, again, that the majority of the fandom is 10-24 year old "inhuman" anarchists. Put another way: Find 1000 Americans, and 1000 Furries. You're 7.5 times more likely, drawing completely at random, to find a 10-24yr. old anarchist "I'm only partially Human" atheistic Furry in Group B than you are to find a Muslim of any age, ethnicity, political ideology, or beliefs-of-self in Group A. _Seven-point-five_ times.



soutthpaw said:


> What happens when folks think about everything the Bible says.


 I'm willing to bet you that at least 50% of those atheist furries neither own a copy of the bible nor have studied it any more than with a cursory glance. 



soutthpaw said:


> Logically and sicentifically it does not add up.


 What was that joke picture on Cracked? "College teens solve all world problems: Refreshing Outlook on Life and Politics fix everything"? Yeah, that's what's going on here.



soutthpaw said:


> one saying I like is this:  _What is the difference between Philosophy and Religion?  Philosophy is questions that may never be answered, Religion is answers that may never be questioned._


_
_I like that you have still ignored, when I brought it up last thread, that one of the three major bits of persuasion and philosophy (Pathos, Logos, Ethos) is religion- / spirituality-based.



soutthpaw said:


> Religion teaches that you must believe because it is the word of God and Faith means taking what cannot be proven as fact:


 ITP Polytheism and non-Abrahamic Religions don't count as religions.



soutthpaw said:


> If you cannot accept as truth that which cannot be proven by modern science, logic or evidence then you have Atheism.


 Didn't you last thread try to weasel out of a statement by defining Atheism as nothing more than the lack of a belief in god? Whereas now you're... trying to argue there's a certain behavior / protocol to Atheism?​


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## gokorahn (Apr 25, 2012)

Been watching this debate, and I just want to say this. IMO, you can't prove if there is a god, and you can't prove there isn't a god, so why argue when neither of you can prove anything?

Again, this is just my opinion.


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

gokorahn said:


> Been watching this debate, and I just want to say this. IMO, you can't prove if there is a god, and you can't prove there isn't a god, so why argue when neither of you can prove anything?
> 
> Again, this is just my opinion.


 Because "Furry-religion is best religion", "Swarthy Musslemen!", and "Christians don't believe in science". I wish I was joking.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

As for the thread title, it was just a bit of sarcasim.  I needed a rhyming ...ism.   
For the multiquote monster,  I did not endeavor to provide and encompassing definition of Atheism.  but here is the Dictionary.com definition for your enjoyment
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin: 
1565â€“75;  < Greek Ã¡the ( os ) godless + -ist


Related forms
anÂ·tiÂ·aÂ·theÂ·ist, noun, adjective
proÂ·aÂ·theÂ·ist, noun, adjective


Can be confused: â€‚1. agnostic, atheist (see synonym note at the current entry ); 2. atheist, theist, deist.


Synonyms 
Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic  refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist  is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic  is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel  means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic  doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds. 
my qoute "If you cannot accept as truth that which cannot be proven by modern science, logic or evidence then you have Atheism." is a primary reason that  I am "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.   AKA God.

"ITP Polytheism and non-Abrahamic Religions don't count as religions." WTF???  please read a dictionary before posting this nonsense.


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

You just said that Religion teaches, and then made reference to Abrahamic God (singular) for all of them. You just summed all religions up based on the big Abrahamic three. Let alone that where you tried to weasel out of atheism and beliefs was not related to my mega-quote section (but another user).


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## Randy-Darkshade (Apr 25, 2012)

Atheism isn't a religion either.


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

Let people believ what thy want, no reason to argue about something  that cannot be answered. All this does is seperate us.


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## Yago (Apr 25, 2012)

From what I've seen, not too many furries have very great house lives, either. And typically whenever you're beaten and neglected as a child, or have other problems most people don't have to deal with, it becomes difficult to have faith in some God's divine will. 

A great deal of very valid points have also already been called, so I can't say too much  more that hasn't already.


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## Deo (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> So Theists can vent on me here
> So continue to cuss me out and insult me personally if you need to.   even though I have not and do not intend to do that to any members here regardless of how we may differ in our views





soutthpaw said:


> I guess if u cannot come up with a reasonable argument then just resort to swearing.


If  you can't come up with reasonable coherent posts then just I suppose you could continue to pander  your indulgent self-pity about your imaginary affronts. To my knowledge no one "cussed you out" or "insulted you personally", it seems you just have no tolerance for normal human interaction and have a deep desire to whine and bitch about nothing.


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## Evan of Phrygia (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm still trying to figure out what the intenttion of a furry church is based off of

I haven't pulled a single legitimate reason to why out of the OP's posts thus far


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## Deo (Apr 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what the intenttion of a furry church is based off of


Furry Jesus is a glory hole in the world's least hygienic gay bar.


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## Namba (Apr 25, 2012)

OP, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're on really strong meds and can't think clearly at the moment. You should probably go lay down for a bit.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Apr 25, 2012)

Meh, I purged my mind of Christianity when I discovered that it's no religion for animal lovers about 2 pages in.

EDIT: But seriously? "*Furrism*"? I feel less intelligent having laid eyes upon the very word.


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## Evan of Phrygia (Apr 25, 2012)

Deo said:


> Furry Jesus is a glory hole in the world's least hygienic gay bar.


The worst part is that that was the most legitimate claim I've heard in this thread.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Apr 25, 2012)

JArt. said:


> Let people believ what thy want, no reason to argue about something  that cannot be answered. All this does is seperate us.



It only separates us if we allow it too.


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## Mxpklx (Apr 25, 2012)

Can't we all agree to disagree? Arguing on the Internet is like the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.


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## Elim Garak (Apr 25, 2012)

Some say its anarchist, rebellious youth. Maybe it is, but look at it this way, these people question what is told about God and religion, instead where a lot of the older generations where taught to believe or get punished in a way. Generation after generation people see the light, believe in social progress and question what they have been told by their parents about a very silly thing according to science. It's more a way of social progress over the years, Where Black people and women used to be substandard, not allowed the same rights and privileges as a white male now they can because of people that stood up and said "No." to the old ways of doing things, seeing the light. Same happens with religion, you see way more religious people in areas where its normal to brainwash your child and pass down the religion in a way. Where in the Netherlands there used to be a lot more religion but the parents didn't push it down too much even though they were Christians.
Like it was said, the fandom is primarily made out of young people. I don't really see that much anarchists in the fandom, I have seen more online in non-furfag places(Anarchism is a silly silly idea).


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## Evan of Phrygia (Apr 25, 2012)

Mxpklx said:


> Can't we all agree to disagree? Arguing on the Internet is like the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.



arguing on the internet is NOT like the special olympics, it's like a race with no trophy but all the satisfaction.

If anything, argument in general is the Special Olympics, except someone is smart enough to question the other.

I don't condone those complete idiots who don't know shit and argue with no factual basis, but when it's actual discussion, it's pretty much a real argument through a different medium, not some sort of stupid fest.

But if you want it to be that, be my guest. I'd love to see if OP actually impresses me. They appear to be a parent, so maybe I've miscalculated their intelligence on the subject.


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## zachhart12 (Apr 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> They appear to be a parent, so maybe I've miscalculated their intelligence on the subject.



What does being a parent have to do with this discussion? >>


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## Evan of Phrygia (Apr 25, 2012)

zachhart12 said:


> What does being a parent have to do with this discussion? >>


Just an inference on an average age to intelligence correlation i find

not always right so who knows, maybe they made it this far being a total idiot


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## Seian Verian (Apr 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> Just an inference on an average age to intelligence correlation i find
> 
> not always right so who knows, maybe they made it this far being a total idiot



Age and intelligence have remarkably little correlation, really. Yes, there is naturally SOME, but it's almost kind of sad how little at times.


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## Thatch (Apr 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> Just an inference on an average age to intelligence correlation i find
> 
> not always right so who knows, maybe they made it this far being a total idiot



1. Intelligence is not age-dependant. (unless you compare a 5yo to a 50yo, but then you're not allowed to have an oppinion on ANY matter)
2. Being a parent is not age-dependant OR intelligence-dependant.

Also, your posts are so vague phrased and/or incomprehensibly written, that I'm only SUSPECTING you're actually supporting what OP is saying. Seriously, what the hell are you even going on about?


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

Well you are all very entertaining, it does seem that some posters fail to read the entire thread before adding their comments.   also some of the quoted text is taken out of context from the would you date an anthro thread.   Yes a Furry church is a silly idea.  I am not advocating for it.  but is it any less silly than the church of Body modification, the Church of Monday Night Football, Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?? (ye shall be touched by his noodley appendage).  And I have a dragon living in my garage. (which most won't understand the reference unless you have read some of the most well known atheist philosophy)  I am a fan of Furry fiction and have listed a couple of books that are great reads.  Gee I thought this board was for Furry Fandom...   Want to know how a Furry church might look like and come into existence?  read the Lapist book I mentioned/linked.   
This whole religion thing  came about in the other thread I mentioned, from my initial comments that due to religious bias,  intra-species relationships would be made illegal on earth just as religious bias has and continues to make same sex relationships illegal.  Yet as we can see the more people become educated and think for themselves they are shunning these religious zealots in favor of personal rights and freedoms.   
As for cussing etc. That was also occuring in the other thread and none of it was from me... 
I really do accept everyone's right to worship as they please and believe what they will as long as it does not affect or infringe on my freedoms in this Secular nation.  However Religions and many of their leaders/ followers around the world already do, or are attempting to do just that.  Hence this is why I have a strong negative views of organized religion in general.   I certainly agree to disagree and so do many Theists but on the same margin many do not...  again the latter group is what I am speaking out against.


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> I really do accept everyone's right to worship as they please and believe what they will as long as it does not affect or infringe on my freedoms in this Secular nation.  However Religions and many of their leaders/ followers around the world already do, or are attempting to do just that.  Hence this is why I have a strong negative views of organized religion in general.


The various religions of the world are not trying to infringe your freedom from religion, you act like they don't care about other people's beliefs.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

Oh I also realize that on the Internet there is a significant number of people who need to belittle and berate others in anyway they can.  I am sure this occurs to bolster whatever personal insecurities and or issues said posters have.  If it makes them feel better then have at it.   Thus why I don't respond to obviously inflammatory commentary that makes no reasonable argument and refrain from personal attacks and name calling etc.    Oh, and do to the age of many here I realize that you think you know it all so I will just let age and experiences work their magic and hopefully they will impart their wisdom at some point in your lives.     

Again those who have an innate need to argue got totally off the point of this thread which was the musings over the high percentage of Atheists in Furry Fandom.  2nd was to get a couple of people's rants against my comments off of someone else's thread before it got closed or out of hand.   I have said all I am going to on this topic so if some of you need to vent more feel free to do so in this non-threatening environment called the internet.    Yes I know that Arguing Politics, Religion is pretty pointless as no one is going to change they value system based on some anonymous internet posts...  Just keep religion out of politics in secular nations... Then religious beliefs will not become imposed on those who do not follow said religions.

We now return you all to your regularly scheduled Furry programming....:lol:


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## zachhart12 (Apr 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> Just an inference on an average age to intelligence correlation i find
> 
> not always right so who knows, maybe they made it this far being a total idiot



Fair enough ^^.  I do see what you meant though.


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Oh I also realize that on the Internet there is a significant number of people who need to belittle and berate others in anyway they can.  I am sure this occurs to bolster whatever personal insecurities and or issues said posters have.  If it makes them feel better then have at it.   Thus why I don't respond to obviously inflammatory commentary that makes no reasonable argument and refrain from personal attacks and name calling etc.



For someone who is against the belittlement of others your previous comments have been quite offensive, and you seemed quick to jump to personal attacks once someone questioned your thoughts.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

I didn't jump to personal attacks as you claim.   I stated facts and reasons that I believe what I do ad provided answers to those who questioned such.   If you feel personally attacked then it means you are a theist who wishes to impose your religious doctrine upon atheists via laws of man to try and make me conform to said doctrine through religious manipulation of American law and government, as this is the group my comments are aimed at.     However no where will u find I directly name called or belittled any poster on this forum.    Read any Athiest philosophy or forum and you will find these arguments repeated in various ways.     Unlike some other posts, nowhere did I refer to anyone as an idiot or moron etc.    That is a personal and unsubstantieated personal attack....    do you understand the difference.    
Also some took what was sarcasim in some of my posts to be serious.


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> I didn't jump to personal attacks as you claim.   I stated facts and reasons that I believe what I do ad provided answers to those who questioned such.   If you feel personally attacked then it means you are a theist who wishes to impose your religious doctrine upon atheists via laws of man to try and make me conform to said doctrine through religious manipulation of American law and government, as this is the group my comments are aimed at.     However no where will u find I directly name called or belittled any poster on this forum.    Read any Athiest philosophy or forum and you will find these arguments repeated in various ways.     Unlike some other posts, nowhere did I refer to anyone as an idiot or moron etc.    That is a personal and unsubstantieated personal attack....    do you understand the difference.
> Also some took what was sarcasim in some of my posts to be serious.





			
				soutthpaw said:
			
		

> I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone...


Not exactly a personal insult, but still uncalled for. Attaman's comment was a logical inquiry yet you still jumped all over him.


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> As for cussing etc. That was also occuring in the other thread and none of it was from me...


 And yet you're the first person who got hostile and started insulting posters. Just because you didn't say "shit" when you make comments such as:
"After all science flies men to the moon and religion flies men into buildings. "
"I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone.."
"don't even get me started on Muslims whose 1 of 5 basic tenants in to convert or kill all infidels including atheists. Muslims do not wish to coexist..."
"your initial comments i quoted are what is called Natural Selection and Evolution (which Christians do not believe in last time I checked)."

You cannot claim moral high ground.



soutthpaw said:


> However Religions and many of their leaders/ followers around the world already do, or are attempting to do just that.


 Yes, I have seen your claims of being oppressed by the Christian Menace in Colorado.  



soutthpaw said:


> Oh I also realize that on the Internet there is a significant number of people who need to belittle and berate others in anyway they can.





			
				You said:
			
		

> "I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone.."
> 
> "your initial comments i quoted are what is called Natural Selection and Evolution (which Christians do not believe in last time I checked)."





soutthpaw said:


> I am sure this occurs to bolster whatever personal insecurities and or issues said posters have.


 Hey, you leave my less-than-optimal social skills out of this! :evil:



soutthpaw said:


> Thus why I don't respond to obviously inflammatory commentary that makes no reasonable argument and refrain from personal attacks and name calling etc.


 You _do_ realize that FAF is not populated by people who are too... intellectually challenged, to _read your posts_ in other threads? 



soutthpaw said:


> Oh, and do to the age of many here I realize that you think you know it all so I will just let age and experiences work their magic and hopefully they will impart their wisdom at some point in your lives.


 "See, just because I don't call you stupid cunts directly to your face, I'm not at all being rude!"


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

And yet you're the first person who got hostile and started insulting  posters. Just because you didn't say "shit" when you make comments such  as:
"After all science flies men to the moon and religion flies men into buildings. "  _So you are claiming that 9/11 was not an act of religious terrorism.  Following the word of the Quran. An attack on Infidels/ Jihad ?_
"I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone.." _Ok that was a bit harsh, sorry.  but claiming abstract thought processing of human infants and other species?_
"don't even get me started on Muslims whose 1 of 5 basic tenants in to  convert or kill all infidels including atheists. Muslims do not wish to  coexist..." _I take it you have not read any of the Quran or works about the Muslim religion.._
"your initial comments i quoted are what is called Natural Selection and  Evolution (which Christians do not believe in last time I checked). _Fact.  Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  try reading it.   So you are disputing that Christanity believes in Creation and not Evolution?_


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## Lobar (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> And yet you're the first person who got hostile and started insulting  posters. Just because you didn't say "shit" when you make comments such  as:
> "After all science flies men to the moon and religion flies men into buildings. "  _So you are claiming that 9/11 was not an act of religious terrorism.  Following the word of the Quran. An attack on Infidels/ Jihad ?_
> "I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone.." _Ok that was a bit harsh, sorry.  but claiming abstract thought processing of human infants and other species?_
> "don't even get me started on Muslims whose 1 of 5 basic tenants in to  convert or kill all infidels including atheists. Muslims do not wish to  coexist..." _I take it you have not read any of the Quran or works about the Muslim religion.._
> "your initial comments i quoted are what is called Natural Selection and  Evolution (which Christians do not believe in last time I checked). _Fact.  Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  try reading it.   So you are disputing that Christanity believes in Creation and not Evolution?_



You're acting like every single religious person is a literalist, when huge swathes of the religious population have backed off from many of the passages most incompatible with modern science and morality.


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> "your initial comments i quoted are what is called Natural Selection and  Evolution (which Christians do not believe in last time I checked). _Fact.  Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  try reading it.   So you are disputing that Christanity believes in Creation and not Evolution?_


I'm Catholic, i believe in natural selection and evolution, so do my Christian friends, and my Christian family, and my Christian preist.


			
				soutthpaw said:
			
		

> _I take it you have not read any of the Quran or works about the Muslim religion.._


I take it you have not met any modern-day Muslims?
I have and they're nice people.


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> And yet you're the first person who got hostile and started insulting  posters.


Actually, no. I'm not. Why don't we go back to that thread, here's a link for those interested, and see what the posts were.



soutthpaw said:


> *YOUR VERY FIRST POST, SNIPPED*
> Well if Anthros did exist, this bass akwards planet we live on would make intra-species relationships and marriage illegal based on some tenant of an *imaginary god*..





Attaman said:


> *MY REPLY, IN FULL*
> And if Anthropomorphic races evolve into a hominid shape, you don't think they would also develop such ideologies? Or that they would be completely tolerant without religion (even though we quite clearly know racism, lying, bigotry, and so-on can occur both in infant humans and non-sapient animals)?


 


soutthpaw said:


> *YOUR REPLY, IN FULL*
> Sorry but we clearly know that these do not occur. *I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone...* I would like to see you prove the claims you make that I highlighted above... Though I suggest doing it in your own thread else we are hijacking this one. Sorry to the OP.


Yes, I so _clearly_ started this. When you took a jab at the majority of the world's religious beliefs, then continue with a completely baseless dismissive comments / remarks (fun fact for those unaware: soutthpaw later referred to "my" god. I'm an atheist), _I'm_ the first person who got hostile and started insulting posters?

soutthpaw, if you're going to defend yourself this way, at least have the decency to edit your posts first so you can later claim "See? He edited my posts and took them out of context!" instead of five seconds of looking shooting down your entire self-defense basis.



soutthpaw said:


> "After all science flies men to the moon and religion flies men into buildings. "  _So you are claiming that 9/11 was not an act of religious terrorism.  Following the word of the Quran. An attack on Infidels/ Jihad ?_


 And you're claiming that it was an act of _Islam_, and not an act of extremist Islamic members? Oh, and are implying through prior comments (see the whole "Basic pennant of Islam" quote prior) that most / all Muslims _endorse_ this act?



soutthpaw said:


> "I have made you question your beliefs and you have made up some BS lie to try to get back into your comfort zone.." _Ok that was a bit harsh, sorry.  but claiming abstract thought processing of human infants and other species?_


 First, I conceded on the infant point in the very next post and admitted I was most probably wrong (most probably as I can't find diddly contradicting those articles, but their sources leave me very unwilling to use 'em in the first place). Second, yeah, there is bias in other species. Also, the fact that you said _lying_ doesn't exist is blatantly false, as there've been _many_ experiments (and, hell, documentaries) showing animals fib to one-another.



soutthpaw said:


> "don't even get me started on Muslims whose 1 of 5 basic tenants in to  convert or kill all infidels including atheists. Muslims do not wish to  coexist..." _I take it you have not read any of the Quran or works about the Muslim religion.._


 I take it you're going to say you're a more informed person about the works than my friends who actively practice Islam? Or that they're not really Muslims because they've neither tried to convert me nor tried to lop my head off with a hacksaw?



soutthpaw said:


> "your initial comments i quoted are what is called Natural Selection and  Evolution (which Christians do not believe in last time I checked). _Fact.  Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  try reading it.   So you are disputing that Christanity believes in Creation and not Evolution?_


 Alright, show of hands: Who here reading this thread is a Christian.

If you raised your hand for the first question, keep your hand raised if you believe in evolution and natural selection.


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## soutthpaw (Apr 25, 2012)

Someday I will figure out how to multiquote but the argument with you is quite pointless.  
 However I have never got what I felt was a justifiable explanation to the question you posed and I have asked many people (theists).  Please explain to me how you can be a Christian AND believe in Evolution and Natural Selection when the Bible clearly teaches Creation and intelligent design.   (Honest I am not insulting you, I really want to know your reasoning behind this.)


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## JArt. (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Someday I will figure out how to multiquote but the argument with you is quite pointless.
> However I have never got what I felt was a justifiable explanation to the question you posed and I have asked many people (theists).  Please explain to me how you can be a Christian AND believe in Evolution and Natural Selection when the Bible clearly teaches Creation and intelligent design.   (Honest I am not insulting you, I really want to know your reasoning behind this.)



Why not believe in natural selection?
The weak must adapt or they will fail.
Evoltuion doesn't outright contradict the bible, and i think any logical person religious or not would accept that evolution is a very real thing.


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## Attaman (Apr 25, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Someday I will figure out how to multiquote but the argument with you is quite pointless.
> However I have never got what I felt was a justifiable explanation to the question you posed and I have asked many people (theists).  Please explain to me how you can be a Christian AND believe in Evolution and Natural Selection when the Bible clearly teaches Creation and intelligent design.   (Honest I am not insulting you, I really want to know your reasoning behind this.)


Simple. Denominations. Let's break it down further, no less: Example.

There are dozens - nay, hundreds, if not thousands - of interpretations of Christianity. Now, some Christians (such as the prior-mentioned Rukh) will state that you must be a Bible Literalist to be a true Christian, and in their theological viewpoint they're right. Others, meanwhile, do not state that the Bible is 100% accurate. Or state that there are supplementary books, or passages that must be added, or new saints, or...


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## Elim Garak (Apr 26, 2012)

Wow, the hate against Islam is unwarranted, just because there's extremists doesn't mean they are all violent,  most Muslims are disgusted by the extremists. I have a couple of Muslim friends they are good people. Terrorism exist in many forms,  ETA/IRA/RAF/CCC/Anders Breivik. Religious or not, there's terrorists every where.


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## BRN (Apr 26, 2012)

JArt. said:


> Why not believe in natural selection?
> The weak must adapt or they will fail.
> Evoltuion doesn't outright contradict the bible, and i think any logical person religious or not would accept that evolution is a very real thing.


The thing is, evolution as a theory suggests all life developed from simpler and simpler life, whereas creation-evolution suggests we were created intelligent and further evolved naturally from that.

The latter theory has no increased explanatory power, nor any evidence; the first theory has explanatory power, and publicly verifiable, empirical and tangible evidence. That's a contradiction, unless you want to claim that the evidence is God's test of faith - which again, has no explanatory power.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Apr 26, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> Someday I will figure out how to multiquote but the argument with you is quite pointless.
> However I have never got what I felt was a justifiable explanation to the question you posed and I have asked many people (theists).  Please explain to me how you can be a Christian AND believe in Evolution and Natural Selection when the Bible clearly teaches Creation and intelligent design.   (Honest I am not insulting you, I really want to know your reasoning behind this.)



Mulitquote button is to the right of the "Reply with quote" button. It only lets you multiquote three quotes though so the other way is to go back and edit the post to add more replies.

From what I have just been reading on this page alone tells me it was you in fact that started belittling others and firing insults. You do not have any moral high ground to stand on so don;t you dare put the blame entirely on everyone else.

You seem to be living in the past. You seem to think as years have progressed that religion and religious folk have changed. 

Now, I believe there is a God. I also believe in evolution. What I believe is that "God" was the catalyst that started life on this planet and the life that was on the planet evolved as the years went by until we have what we have today. I don't believe God hates Gays, I think that is just some bullshit made up by religious leaders who don't like gays and don't want them in their church. I don;t believe we HAVE to go to church to worship god (or any place of worship dependent on religion) I believe we can pray at home, if we wish. I also don't believe it is necessary to pray everyday. These are just samples of my beliefs, yet I do not class myself as any particular religion. 

It is very possible for someone to be, as you say Christian and believe in evolution. what you must remember is that times have changed, peoples thoughts have changed.



Caroline Dax said:


> Wow, the hate against Islam is unwarranted,  just because there's extremists doesn't mean they are all violent,  most  Muslims are disgusted by the extremists. I have a couple of Muslim  friends they are good people. Terrorism exist in many forms,   ETA/IRA/RAF/CCC/Anders Breivik. Religious or not, there's terrorists  every where.



This is true. There are also extremists in other religions too, such as the west boro baptist church. It doesn;t matter what religion it is, it is not immune to not having it's fair share of assholes within it.


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## Elim Garak (Apr 26, 2012)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> This is true. There are also extremists in other religions too, such as the west boro baptist church. It doesn;t matter what religion it is, it is not immune to not having it's fair share of assholes within it.


Or without religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Cells_(German_group) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Combatant_Cells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA ( Last one is if i remember correctly)


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## Kitutal (Apr 26, 2012)

1- everyone is different even if they follow the same religion you cannot generalise about them all
2- there is no way of proving or disproving any faith, so there is little point arguing about it.

Now back on topic, why are so many nerdy, socially awkward, porn obsessed teenagers opposed to the idea of the christian god in all its entirety?


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## BRN (Apr 26, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> 2- there is no way of proving or disproving any faith, so there is little point arguing about it.


There's plenty of ways of logically disproving faiths, such as questioning logical incoherences. The problem is that these inconsistencies are denied and thus aren't sufficient to remove the defunct indoctrination.


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## Kitutal (Apr 26, 2012)

technically you can disprove a small piece of an organised religion, but how would you disprove the existence of any sort of god entirely?
you ever read Age of Reason? good book for that sort of picking religions apart.


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## BRN (Apr 26, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> technically you can disprove a small piece of an organised religion, but how would you disprove the existence of any sort of god entirely?
> you ever read Age of Reason? good book for that sort of picking religions apart.



 If you can disprove any part of a faith system, why doesn't the rest of the faith fall to skepticism too? Logical inconsistencies are just denied rather than dealt with, that's the problem.

How would I disprove the existence of any sort of god? I can't; but I shouldn't need to. The burden of proving something is on the religious; the simplest and most explanatory answer is exposed through the scientific method of reasoning through facts; while there is logical room for a God to exist, it either is a trivial matter [since God seems to do nothing] or he simply doesn't exist at all. 

 The two statements "God exists" and "God doesn't exist" both leave the universe as it is; completely understandable by tested theories. Seems to me that a belief in God just adds an unneccessary and fruitless "metaphysical" non-universe that escapes having any real purpose or point or effect.


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## Kitutal (Apr 26, 2012)

Because some parts of it have not been disproved, sure there are religions where bits are clearly wrong, and it seems strange to me that people still follow them without caring about that, but the underlying faith in something more than themselves is still there.
You can't disprove it, they can't prove it, noone gets the answers they want and there's no point arguing over it, because that gets you nowhere, you don't have to believe if you don't want to, but they don't have to not believe.
Besides, the scientific explanation of everything is far from simple, and just because there is no need for something to be a certain way, that doesn't prove that it isn't that way, just that it might not be.
In the end, though, arguing about religion is pointless, the little inconsistencies change nothing big, and mostly get ignored, and the big questions just can't be answered at all, so we would be better off focusing our attention to other issues that we can do something about. I forget what philosopher it was that said that, might have been Kant, it's just not worth the time and effort.


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## Lobar (Apr 26, 2012)

Caroline Dax said:


> Wow, the hate against Islam is unwarranted, just because there's extremists doesn't mean they are all violent,  most Muslims are disgusted by the extremists. I have a couple of Muslim friends they are good people. Terrorism exist in many forms,  ETA/IRA/RAF/CCC/Anders Breivik. Religious or not, there's terrorists every where.



Hate against _Muslim people_ just for being Muslim is unwarranted, but an unevidenced belief system that has at its worst motivated individuals to murder thousands, that is itself a fair target.


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## Dreaming (Apr 26, 2012)

soutthpaw said:


> I have noted that Furs are more than double the national average for Atheism of about 14-15% and over half the members if you include agnostics and pagens.



Do you have any citations for this? |: 

Well, it's already been pointed out really. A majority of the fandom are in the 18-25 range, so the fandom ain't exactly ''all ages'' and will not appear as such.


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## Elim Garak (Apr 26, 2012)

Lobar said:


> Hate against _Muslim people_ just for being Muslim is unwarranted, but an unevidenced belief system that has at its worst motivated individuals to murder thousands, that is itself a fair target.


It's brainwashing by using religion or anything else. It's like jonestown, RAF,CCC, its all people who are messed up in the head and Extremist groups target young vulnerable people most of the time, its sad.
If you want to be correct, the USA, CApitalism, Communism(USSR, Deutsche Demokratische Republik with Stasi), facism(Italy, Germany, Spain and others), all religions, Ireland and its rebels back in the day, the Basque, Belgium(Congo), UK and many other countries and ideologies have many deaths on their hands. 
Also anti terrorism ads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liCRMiybeP0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIjGchpYGM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv8c9wnM4l0&feature=related

What I am saying, if you say that going after Islam is ok, but the others are innocent its disgusting, though you don't state it in those words, I just want to make sure.
I am Atheist, but I hate people who place people and ideologies in boxes, just like some people do with homosexuals.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Apr 26, 2012)

Caroline Dax said:


> It's brainwashing by using religion or anything else. It's like jonestown, RAF,CCC, its all people who are messed up in the head and Extremist groups target young vulnerable people most of the time, its sad.
> If you want to be correct, the USA, CApitalism, Communism(USSR, Deutsche Demokratische Republik with Stasi), facism(Italy, Germany, Spain and others), all religions, Ireland and its rebels back in the day, the Basque, Belgium(Congo), UK and many other countries and ideologies have many deaths on their hands.
> Also anti terrorism ads:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liCRMiybeP0&feature=related
> ...



RAF? The only RAF I have ever heard of is the Royal Air Force.


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## Onnes (Apr 26, 2012)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> RAF? The only RAF I have ever heard of is the Royal Air Force.



Probably the Red Army Faction. A defunct German left-wing militant group.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Apr 26, 2012)

Onnes said:


> Probably the Red Army Faction. A defunct German left-wing militant group.



Never heard of them, or the CCC, or the other one that was mentioned.


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