# FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!



## Dragoneer (May 9, 2006)

Gushi and I have just pulled FA offline as we are currently in the process of performing a full system hardware upgrade. The entire site is moving to a new server, chock full of more powerful, more potent hardware. It's been a long time coming.

*Estimated system downtime:* 6 to 12 hours. Possibly more. :shock:

We are moving from a P4 2.5Ghz CPU with 2GB of RAM two a dual processor 3.0Ghz Xeon box with 4GB of ECC RAM, a more powerful RAID controller and oodles of more features.

It's a "overdue" but it'll be worth it. Oh yes. _It will be worth it._ :twisted:

UPDATE
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: *As you can no doubt see upgrades have taken longer than anticipated. We are working on getting a status update together.*


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## timoran (May 9, 2006)

Heh. My home PC shouldn't be more powerful than a server for a massive furry pr0n art site. Definitely overdue.


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## Dragoneer (May 9, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

> Heh. My home PC shouldn't be more powerful than a server for a massive furry pr0n art site. Definitely overdue.


Both of my home PCs are "better" in a matter of speaking, but bear in mind servers tend to be able to do more with little. With the budget we had... we got what we could.

Down the road, we'll begin to save and allocate money to upgrade to a dual quad-core CPU based system with yet MORE RAM. But that will be down the road. Well down the road.


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## KimbaLemur (May 9, 2006)

Oooooo!! I wounder what are the new more features are?  

It' been long time but it payed off. ^^ BTW Nice avatar Dragoneer.


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## yak (May 9, 2006)

Warning: mysql_connect(): Too many connections in /****/****/****/****/***.php on line 26

migh want to turn off error reporting (but it would be best to eliminate the warnings/notices in the first place) after you complete the move. bad, very bad to expose where the files lie on the server...


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## Dragoneer (May 9, 2006)

yak said:
			
		

> Warning: mysql_connect(): Too many connections in /****/****/****/****/***.php on line 26
> 
> migh want to turn off error reporting (but it would be best to eliminate the warnings/notices in the first place) after you complete the move. bad, very bad to expose where the files lie on the server...


I can't do much for that right now. I agree, but I'm not in a position at the moment to make any changes. Perhaps Alkora or Gushi will be able to provide a temporary fix.


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## Grave (May 9, 2006)

I thought this was all taken care of a few weeks back?


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## Dragoneer (May 9, 2006)

Grave said:
			
		

> I thought this was all taken care of a few weeks back?


That was one upgrade of several.

And, uh, it was taken care of a few weeks back, but we ran into problems. Which we posted about.


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## tundra_arctic_wolf (May 9, 2006)

Well, I wish you lots of good luck with the upgrades, as well as getting the website up and running again, Dragoneer.

cheers,
Tundra Arctic Wolf


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## Grave (May 9, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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I must have missed it or ive completly forgot. Probably the latter.


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## Dragoneer (May 9, 2006)

Grave said:
			
		

> I must have missed it or ive completly forgot. Probably the latter.


We had an accident involving physics, powercables and heatsink thermal fans.


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## Arshes Nei (May 9, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> We had an accident involving physics, powercables and heatsink thermal fans.



Will you have a memorial for the binary casualties?


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## Firon (May 9, 2006)

Ouch.
Well, best of luck with the upgrade!


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## RevengeBoot (May 9, 2006)

Thanks for informing us with that. 

Will this affect anybody who visits FA? I might have a less-powerful PC and I was just wondering if my computer could still take it. 

Thanks for your time.

- Eric.


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## timoran (May 9, 2006)

RevengeBoot said:
			
		

> Thanks for informing us with that.
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> Will this affect anybody who visits FA? I might have a less-powerful PC and I was just wondering if my computer could still take it.
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No. FA has to process and serve pages for thousands of people at a time, but for each of those people, it's a very small load.


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## cesarin (May 9, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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dude, dont tell me you put a Aegia PhysiX card inside the server?


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## Dragoneer (May 9, 2006)

cesarin said:
			
		

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Well, actually running our physics over two nVidia GeForce 7900 GTX cards in SLI mode. We learned a little too late that ATI's onboard physics was a little faster.


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## Vgm22 (May 9, 2006)

I just want to say. Keep up the good work and keep on burning the midnight oil. You getting my props for working hard on getting FA to be it's damed best. On another note. I love the pic for the hold on we're upgrading. ^^ It's better than the error line people used to get, unless some are still getting it, which I doubt.


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## timoran (May 9, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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I'm confused, and I'm a real computer scientist . What does physics have to do with the FA server? Are you guys playing games on it?


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## Silver R. Wolfe (May 10, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

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He was makin' a joke regarding real-life physics..  I belive they had a fan shatter or some such thing...


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## timoran (May 10, 2006)

Did you guys run into problems again? Double the estimated time has passed without a word from any mods. >_>


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## RevengeBoot (May 10, 2006)

*RE:   FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> No. FA has to process and serve pages for thousands of people at a time, but for each of those people, it's a very small load.



Okay, thanks very much! ^^


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## Dragoneer (May 10, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

> Did you guys run into problems again? Double the estimated time has passed without a word from any mods. >_>


Yes. We're going to tweak the server later and will be temporarily opening FA to let people in while we fix the issue. I don't have full details as to what the problem is at this point and time.

We're upgrading the OS on the server tonight.


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## Firon (May 10, 2006)

Are you guys using Apache or Lighttpd? (lighttpd ftw, 'n such, death to apache and it's 10x higher loads). I do hope you're running PHP5 in FastCGI mode (which works better on Lighttpd as well), at the very least...
What OS you using?


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## Suule (May 10, 2006)

To be honest... the way some people are overacting... sheesh. There is more to life than FA...


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## yak (May 10, 2006)

OS - FreeBSD
HTTP - Apache 1.3.34
PHP - 4.4.2 i believe
Well, these were the specs of the old server.

Don't know anyhing about the new one, except it is FreeBSD as well. It finally has /server-status disabled.


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## yak (May 10, 2006)

Uhmm, Suule - i think you are in a wrong thread


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## Dragoneer (May 10, 2006)

yak said:
			
		

> OS - FreeBSD
> HTTP - Apache 1.3.34
> PHP - 4.4.2 i believe
> Well, these were the specs of the old server.
> ...


FreeBSD is being upgraded to 6.1 tonight. We found an issue which is causing some... problems. I don't know the exact nature of the problem, but the server is apparently "reverting" itself to older copies of FA. We're not sure why.

I dunno. If this were a IIS server I'd probably know what to do, but... LOL. I wouldn't run FA on a IIS. I have too much respect. =P


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## Vgm22 (May 10, 2006)

*RE:   FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

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Could you give us a run through of what's been done and what's going on? I know a lot of peeps would like to know, including me.


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## Suule (May 10, 2006)

yak said:
			
		

> Uhmm, Suule - i think you are in a wrong thread



Not really. I'm summing up all what's been said on the issue so far :3



			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> FreeBSD is being upgraded to 6.1 tonight. We found an issue which is causing some... problems. I don't know the exact nature of the problem, but the server is apparently "reverting" itself to older copies of FA. We're not sure why.



You mean to older backups?


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## Kuryu_shikotsu (May 10, 2006)

so whats the estimated time itll be back up


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## *morningstar (May 10, 2006)

Can someone please put up a damned error message on the front page or something? With a link to this thread?

:? I feel like a broken record saying this over and over again.


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## benanderson (May 10, 2006)

This explains why I can't get on FA... >.=.>

A new server(s) will be good, especially if your using a Xeon over a P4!

I predict uber speed-ness in the future! ^.=.^


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## dragonfan (May 10, 2006)

i've been wondering why i couldn't get on either so now i know i hope the
upgrades will be better than the old ones


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## Firon (May 10, 2006)

Nooooooo. Don't use Apache, for the love of god.  Switch to Lighttpd and run PHP in FastCGI mode, and watch the loadavg drop...


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## Dragoneer (May 10, 2006)

dragonfan said:
			
		

> i've been wondering why i couldn't get on either so now i know i hope the
> upgrades will be better than the old ones


If you wanna browse head over to 8.7.49.240


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## dragonfan (May 10, 2006)

*RE:   FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

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i've already headed over there now and it is quite fast compared to the old stuff and i like it


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## cesarin (May 10, 2006)

I still say opterons would have done a better job, and they wouldnt have spitted heat enought to make your cofee 

anyway theserver as it is, its loading preety fast I supose, even if its in maintenance mode, the first page usually took quite a bit to show, now is instantly.


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## Dragoneer (May 11, 2006)

cesarin said:
			
		

> I still say opterons would have done a better job, and they wouldnt have spitted heat enought to make your cofee
> 
> anyway theserver as it is, its loading preety fast I supose, even if its in maintenance mode, the first page usually took quite a bit to show, now is instantly.


Well, give me $900 and I'll get us dual 265 opterons. But, being as it is... I don't have that money, so... =P


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## Myr (May 11, 2006)

Great work on the system upgrade!  It's working really well now. Checking thousands of submissions will be a breeze now that browsing loads so fast.

And if anyone complains about the site being too fast, I'm going to eat them...this dragon needs a good meal...mmm...*rubs belly* >^.=.^<


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## Torin_Darkflight (May 11, 2006)

Uh, sorry to be a pest, but I just got the following errors while trying to login on the new server:

Warning: file(./templates/default_old/sidebar.htm): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /usr/data/furaffinity/public_html/system/functions.sys on line 14

Warning: implode(): Bad arguments. in /usr/data/furaffinity/public_html/system/functions.sys on line 14

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /usr/data/furaffinity/public_html/system/functions.sys:14) in /usr/data/furaffinity/public_html/system/session.sys on line 17

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /usr/data/furaffinity/public_html/system/functions.sys:14) in /usr/data/furaffinity/public_html/login.asp on line 23


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## gushi (May 11, 2006)

Firon said:
			
		

> Are you guys using Apache or Lighttpd? (lighttpd ftw, 'n such, death to apache and it's 10x higher loads). I do hope you're running PHP5 in FastCGI mode (which works better on Lighttpd as well), at the very least...
> What OS you using?



The OS is FreeBSD 6.1-amd64.

We're presently using php4.  The codebase hasn't been tested on php5, although it may be in the future -- php has never been very good about not breaking things on upgrades.

Lighttpd could possibly be a consideration for the future as well.  Right now, my experience is with running and tuning apache.

However, at the moment, changes need to be controlled, as any slowdown is another cause to start examining EVERYTHING that had been changed and start pointing fingers.  Besides which, we've learned in the past that something that seems to work on a testbed server may simply not SCALE when it's being hit with the concurrent hits that the fandom delivers.

Without revealing too much, I can honestly say that we're about to embark on a few steps that won't as much add features as add stability, both to the codebase, as well as to the coders and admins 

When dealing with a site that gets millions of hits a day, something as trivial as a symlink in a single directory can cause excessive load.


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## cesarin (May 11, 2006)

btw, everything is fast as hell, but there is one problem, if i click on JOURNALS inside my console thingie, it TIMES OUT!
and if I go back to my console, it says things like 34636% by php 825% by mysql.
but if I click the journals in the other way ( in any main page )
it will load just fine.


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## Mr Cullen (May 11, 2006)

Hmmmm

UPGRADES?


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## cesarin (May 11, 2006)

we killed the server lol
its now timing out 

prey, you're fired lol!


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## Firon (May 11, 2006)

gushi: yeah, we had some migration issues when moving over to lighttpd and PHP5. A lot of things just... didn't work anymore.  Half of it was the fact that everything used to be running as iso-8859-1 and we migrated to UTF-8, and the other half was that some of the stuff used apache-specific commands. If you do decide to migrate, you'll definitely need a testbed to work out all those kinks... But it's really worth it in the end, the load decrease is just incredible.
And if you do decide to run/test lighttpd, I *highly* recommend to build the latest version from source, and run PHP4/5 in CGI mode externally (using spawn-fcgi), instead of using the server's adaptive process spawning. And have at least two PHP parent processes as well, in case one decides to segfault (not that it should, but you never know) the site won't die. Though, if you use eAccelerator or any other cache system, you'll want to keep the parent PHP processes to a minimum, since each parent has its own SHM segment.
fyi, though eAccelerator says it doesn't work with PHP in CGI mode, or with lighttpd, it does, and does just fine. Our site gets a few million hits a day and it's working A-OK.


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## Dragoneer (May 11, 2006)

Torin_Darkflight said:
			
		

> Uh, sorry to be a pest, but I just got the following errors while trying to login on the new server...


Try it again. I believe I fixed it.


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## Grave (May 11, 2006)

Mr Cullen said:
			
		

> Hmmmm
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> UPGRADES?




Hehehe, nice quote  *bows*


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## Dragoneer (May 11, 2006)

cesarin said:
			
		

> prey, you're fired lol!


You can't fire me! I QUIT!


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## cesarin (May 11, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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btw, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
starting to get the "TOO MANY CONNECTIONS" of doom x_X


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## Dragoneer (May 11, 2006)

cesarin said:
			
		

> btw, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> starting to get the "TOO MANY CONNECTIONS" of doom x_X


We are looking into it.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

New server is refusing HTTP connections at the moment...

Still responds to PING though. ???


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## nrr (May 11, 2006)

*RE:  FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE! (warning: THREAD HIJACK! *



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> Still responds to PING though. ???


That, sir, would be correctly named ICMP.  Specifically, ICMP echo.

ping?
pong!
ping?
pong!
ping?
ping?
ping?
...
...
ping?
...
...
ping?

It's especially trippy when you hack together your own little pinging utility and associate the events involving the request of your local host and the response of a remote host with some sounds.  Then, start pinging multiple hosts, and use sounds of different instruments or pitches.  Trippy, trippy.  Let me tell you.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

*RE:   FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE! (warning: THREAD HIJACK! *



			
				nrr said:
			
		

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No, it wouldn't. It would be correctly named PING. Ping is AKO ICMP. ICMP is a _protocol_.

Don't try to correct a Computer Scientist, because you will get pwned.


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## gushi (May 11, 2006)

cesarin said:
			
		

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Wanna know what causes that?  It's really quite simple.

When you connect to FA, a single thread starts talking to the SQL server, and fetches all the data.  Under "prime time" periods of heavy load, sometimes people get impatient, and say "too slow" and hit "reload"...which creates ANOTHER server connection, and another DB connection (meanwhile the queries to generate your original page are still running)....


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

*sigh.*

Page generated in 145.4687 seconds (27.143% PHP - 72.857% MySQL [ 6 queries ])

On the new server.

I know it's only temporary, but still, *sigh.*


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## Vgm22 (May 11, 2006)

*RE:  FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> *sigh.*
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> Page generated in 145.4687 seconds (27.143% PHP - 72.857% MySQL [ 6 queries ])
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That's because so many people are on now. You just have to keep trying to get in a spot were you get page generation like 0.4359. That's what I got once. Don't remeber the PHP and MySQL.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

It just proves that the problem doesn't lie in the hardware... it lies in the code.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

Come to think of it...

Can I give all of you (coders, mods, users) a quick little parable about about orders of magnitude? Few people understand this principle of efficient programming, but it's really important.

Say you've got two men: A young man of 20 years in perfect shape, and a feeble 80-year-old. You instruct both of them to build ten houses. The 20-year-old gets the houses built quite a bit faster than the 80-year old, but both get the job done in a reasonable amount of time.

You then tell them to build fifty houses. Once again, the 20-year-old gets his job done a lot faster than the 80-year-old, but they both take about five times as long as they did before, and even the 80-year-old gets the job done eventually without dying.

Then you tell them you want them to build ten houses, but each house must be built inside the previous. "WTF" the 20-year-old says. "You whippersnapper!" The 80-year-old says.

They both begin working, but after about three houses the 80-year-old passes out. After a long time trying to figure out how to make each house fit a smaller house inside, the 20-year-old gets his job done in about ten years. The 80-year-old is treated with a defibrillator, starts over, and it takes him about fifteen years to finish the job - and with the last 2x4, he keels over, a dead man of 95.

The moral: If you give people ridiculous shit to do, it's going to take forever no matter how fast they are.

When you have a search that performs one operation on each node, that's a "Big O" of n. If it goes to each node, and then each node performs an operation against every other node, you have a Big O of n² and the load time is exponentially longer.

It might not be a big deal if you have ten nodes, but with each additional node you square the number of comparisons in a search.

There has got to be something with a Big O of n² or worse lurking in some critical function of the FA code.


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## nrr (May 11, 2006)

*RE:    FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE! (warning: THREAD HIJACK! *



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> Don't try to correct a Computer Scientist, because you will get pwned.


Oh, please.  The thing that would make me think you're a Computer Scientist (yes, with Studly Capitalized Letters to make it look important) right now is your having a PhD (including refereed dissertation) and working in R&D or as a professor somewhere.  I don't think this is the case, so I'll just blow it off as some fellow undergraduate student's trying to compensate for something.  Moving on...

Your ability to nitpick on my (somewhat correctly) generalizing a protocol with two of its commonly used features, specifically, packet types 0x00 and 0x08, those belonging to echo reply and echo request, does not make you a Computer Scientist any more than my (albeit rusty) knowledge of low-level TCP/IP semantics makes me one.

Now, if you'd like to get off your "I'm enrolled in an undergraduate computer science program at my university, so I'm special!" high horse, I would enjoy someone with whom to discuss compiler design theory and radix trees.  Interested?


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## nrr (May 11, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

> When you have a search that performs one operation on each node, that's a "Big O" of n.


We call this the asymptotic behavior of a function.

... and it's usually written O(_n_).



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> If it goes to each node, and then each node performs an operation against every other node, you have a Big O of n² and the load time is exponentially longer.


You could even define a function O(_n_) = k_n_^3 + k_n_ + 1, where k is some arbitrary constant, to represent your operations.



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> It might not be a big deal if you have ten nodes, but with each additional node you square the number of comparisons in a search.


True.



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> There has got to be something with a Big O of n² or worse lurking in some critical function of the FA code.


Is this a hypothesis, sir?  I hope it's not a straight-shot conclusion given how it's very possible that O(_n_) > _n_ for all _n_.  It could have a behavior of O(_n_^3) or O(3ln_n_) for all you're aware.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

nrr: I have a bachelor degree in Computer Science.

What do you have, good sir?


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

nrr said:
			
		

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I find it hilarious that you think you can trump me by saying something else that is _also_ true. You can call a potato a solanum tuberosum if you are so inclined, but it is still a goddamn potato.

Why are you here?


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## nrr (May 11, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

> nrr: I have a bachelor degree in Computer Science.


Would that be a Bachelor's of Arts or a Bachelor's of Science?



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> What do you have, good sir?


Does it matter what I have?


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

nrr said:
			
		

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Bachelor of Science, as you might have safely presumed from Computer *Science*.

And clearly, you don't have any Computer Science degree, since you didn't even know which category the degree falls under. So please, butt out if you don't have any proof that you know what you're talking about.


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## nrr (May 11, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

> Bachelor of Science, as you might have safely presumed from Computer *Science*.


Internet logic.

Actually, a field having the word "science" in its name doesn't guarantee that completing that program will yield a BS degree upon graduation.  For what it's worth, my school offers a computer science program with a liberal arts emphasis that yields a BA for students who're geared toward a PhD program after undergrad.  Or for students who already have the professional experience not to warrant pursuing a BS degree in the same field of study.



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> And clearly, you don't have any Computer Science degree, since you didn't even know which category the degree falls under. So please, butt out if you don't have any proof that you know what you're talking about.


I guess writing software professionally before graduating high school doesn't count?  I had 10-ish lines of code on my behalf in the tdfx driver for XFree at one point, and I've written a couple of unpublished papers (er, case studies, same diff) on critical API volatility and simple cryptography (with an emphasis on complexity in computer applications).

If it makes you feel any better, I'm a declared dual major pursuing the BA program in computer science and the BA program in math at my school.  In addition, I've already started putting together the topic proposal for my PhD dissertation.

Also, no.  I think I'll stay here.


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## dave hyena (May 11, 2006)

I have an enormous penis and have won many dick waving competitions thereby.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

I'll agree to stop responding to your threadcrapping, nrr. Will you agree to stop threadcrapping?


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## uncia2000 (May 11, 2006)

*yay* for big-O notation. Or not... 
_(Never ceased to be amused at the amount of scientific theory that goes straight out the window in RL industry!)_

Yeah, timoran; I'd been around the various possible issues on the DB2 definitions, SQL access paths and suchlike. Am sure there are still more to follow on that side, although from a distance it's often difficult to tease those out from the possible technical implementation issues or manner in which a particular slowdown manifests itself (in terms of raw response speed, say).

I'm pretty sure the techs are working through the list pdq, now.

Computational Science (as it was back then ) could also, and still can, be taken as either Art or Science where I went to University; either by itself, or in combination with other subjects.
Makes perfect sense, IMO, as the subject can certainly encompass the full range from "hard science" through to the cultural interface of the "arts" "spectrum".


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## uncia2000 (May 11, 2006)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> I have an enormous penis and have won many dick waving competitions thereby.


*rofl*

I always wandered what went on in Ningirsu's temple. Now I know!


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

At the moment, at least, things are running OK.

Of course, now that we finally have a working server, Y!G bans all furry and sends everyone here. Thus causing even more people to flood the site.


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## Vgm22 (May 11, 2006)

*RE:  FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> At the moment, at least, things are running OK.
> 
> Of course, now that we finally have a working server, Y!G bans all furry and sends everyone here. Thus causing even more people to flood the site.



Which is a good thing IMO.


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## timoran (May 11, 2006)

Heh, I think we should ban human art... but only crappily drawn human art. And then send all the people who draw crappy human art to Y!G... XD


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## Grave (May 11, 2006)

lol..it seems that nearly every thread around here has a flame war of some kind at some point in its life.

What a great community, eh?


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## Vgm22 (May 11, 2006)

*RE:  FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				Grave said:
			
		

> lol..it seems that nearly every thread around here has a flame war of some kind at some point in its life.
> 
> What a great community, eh?



Yep, you gotta love it. Not one dull moment around here. :lol:


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## imnohbody (May 11, 2006)

It's hardly limited to the FA forums, Grave. 

And on the subject of the actual site for which these forums exist, in IE(eeeeee!) FA is slow to load, and in Firefox it doesn't load at all. To add insult to injury, I can't recall my password, and when I try to use the reminder thingy, it says that it can't find a user "imnohbody".

[edit]
I tried importing my FFox cookies into IE(eeeee!), but when I load up FA, it still shows me as a guest.

It'd be just my luck that the move ate my account...


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## Leahtaur (May 12, 2006)

*RE:  FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				timoran said:
			
		

> Heh, I think we should ban human art... but only crappily drawn human art. And then send all the people who draw crappy human art to Y!G... XD



I sincerely hope that never happens, as most of my FA gallery is currently human art. >_> I can change! Honest!


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## Dragoneer (May 12, 2006)

Leahtaur said:
			
		

> I sincerely hope that never happens, as most of my FA gallery is currently human art. >_> I can change! Honest!


We banned screenshots, only because this isn't a gaming site. But that's about it, really. Humans are welcome so long as they remember to wipe their feet at the door.


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## imnohbody (May 12, 2006)

Quick follow-up: Account is there and working okay now.


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## Arshes Nei (May 12, 2006)

timoran said:
			
		

> Heh, I think we should ban human art... but only crappily drawn human art. And then send all the people who draw crappy human art to Y!G... XD



Heh except that 1. Y! was already a specialized gallery which was for male gay themes or just male art. So they only banned a certain section of that community, sure disagree with how they did it, but YAOI was for anime/manga only anyways - it was people outside of Japan that tried to apply it to EVERYTHING.

Kinda like how Brokeback now somehow means "gay" 

2. FA is pretty much for all types of themes be it sexual or non, it just happens to have the word FUR in it. Reading from their TOS anyways.


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## Mr Cullen (May 15, 2006)

*RE:  FULL SYSTEM UPGRADE!*



			
				Grave said:
			
		

> lol..it seems that nearly every thread around here has a flame war of some kind at some point in its life.
> 
> What a great community, eh?



Dude, they were arguing about computer stuff. That's hardly a flame war now. If you want a REAL flame war. I suggest you pay $10 for the Something Awful forums or check out the GNAA.


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