# Posting a New Comic



## Keto BlueKanine (Apr 3, 2010)

Hope this is appropriate here, but thought I'd plugin a comic that Kashra and I are workin on.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/3646976


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## Foxstar (Apr 3, 2010)

How many Mary Sues and cameos by your buddies will it have? I'd like to know ahead of time so I can figure out if it's worth following or not.


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## Keto BlueKanine (Apr 3, 2010)

Foxstar said:


> How many Mary Sues and cameos by your buddies will it have? I'd like to know ahead of time so I can figure out if it's worth following or not.



Well that's a bit difficult to answer. But I promise it'll be a comic with a thought-out story and characters.

If you choose to not follow it, then no biggie, I appreciate ya checking out this thread out at all.

If you choose to follow it, then kick ass, and hope you continue to enjoy.


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## selkie (Apr 3, 2010)

Wow, you're an excellent artist.  I'll have to keep up witcho comic.
But the way first panel with the title seems a bit empty on the right side.


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## Keto BlueKanine (Apr 3, 2010)

selkie said:


> Wow, you're an excellent artist.  I'll have to keep up witcho comic.
> But the way first panel with the title seems a bit empty on the right side.



Daw, thanks a lot! I appreciate the kindness dude!

And yeah, I suppose I could have definitely added more planes in that first panel.  I appreciate the feedback.


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## selkie (Apr 3, 2010)

Well, you could even just make the title bigger, making it take up more space?
More planes or bigger title, they'd both work.


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## kashra (Apr 5, 2010)

Foxstar said:


> How many Mary Sues and cameos by your buddies will it have? I'd like to know ahead of time so I can figure out if it's worth following or not.



Lots. In fact, Mary Sue is the only character I know how to write! The 10 minutes it would take you to read this free comic would be better spent doing something else; no doubt you have very important business to attend to.


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## FlakyRock (Apr 17, 2010)

Wow, nice animating, like the 'old' Affect ^_^


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## Sgt. Andrews (Apr 17, 2010)

FlakyRock said:


> Wow, nice animating, like the 'old' Affect ^_^



I agree, Great War era I haven't seen in a comic before. So +watching you, keep it up! ^-^


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## Smelge (Apr 17, 2010)

It was going really well until it turned into gay sex.

God damn it.


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## Ames (Apr 17, 2010)

Voidrunners said:


> It was going really well until it turned into gay sex.
> 
> God damn it.



This.


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## Scotty1700 (Apr 17, 2010)

Voidrunners said:


> It was going really well until it turned into gay sex.
> 
> God damn it.



Yay, it has gay sex!

Lost two fans but gained one!


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## Ilayas (Apr 17, 2010)

Voidrunners said:


> It was going really well until it turned into gay sex.
> 
> God damn it.




Pretty much this.  I don't really mind reading/viewing stuff like that time to time I just like to be warned beforehand.  About a 1/3 of that comic was pornographic I know this is FA and such things are not out of place but just give us a heads up.


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## Deosil Fox (Apr 17, 2010)

I love it when I get the "You are not allowed to view this image." notice XD

It's really good art I can say that much, as for the story it seems interesting but alas I am going to have to agree with Voidrunners. But hey it's not bad at all, and there is no reason why a few people's opinions should matter.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Apr 17, 2010)

> And yes, that's dragoneer's character, Preyfar. And no, it wasn't a suck up move or anything like that.



LOL. I made a disappointing sigh when I saw that character. I was like are kidding? What a suck up.


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## Kellie Gator (Apr 17, 2010)

So it's a story about some great hero who's retired and is now living a shitty life and is missing the old glory days. This is some truly ground breaking storytelling here, people.

Even as porn it's pretty disappointing because you don't get to the porn until page 11/16, so in the end there's too much talking and too little fucking. Porn is porn, so let it stay that way. Trying to put proper storytelling in porn will just end up in tears.


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## Smelge (Apr 17, 2010)

See, I am actually really quite disappointed.

The art is great, the storytelling was pretty damn good. It has a great setup as well for what could be a pretty epic story.

But the whole gay thing just put me right off the whole thing. If it had been ambiguous or not gay, I'd have been following this thing. I'm not irritated about it being gay, more that there was no warning, no reason to suspect it wasn't just a great story being started. Especially as it take so long to actually come to the turn-off point. With so many pages read, your readers are getting committed to the storyline, which makes it an even worse sucker-punch when it hits that page.


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## Ames (Apr 18, 2010)

I loved the art and the storytelling and everything, until that gay porn hit me like a fucking freight train.

Seriously, there was no warning at all...

"Oh hey there blah blah blah newspaper blah blah"
*unzips pants*


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## Smelge (Apr 19, 2010)

Yeah, it's like dangling a beautiful slice of chocolate cake in front of you, then after 15 minutes of chasing it, someone steps out from behind a bush and smashes it into the ground with a hammer.

"Here is something that interests you and has the decency to be pretty damn good, but in 8 pages time I'll turn around and go FUCK YOU THIS IS NOT FOR YOUR TYPE"


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## Satoshi (Apr 19, 2010)

I agree.
It would of been awesome without that random porn. D: 
LIKE SOME KIND OF EPIC FIGHT OR SOME SHIT.

fuck.

I wanna see two guys punch each other in the FACE. >:[


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## Mangasama (Apr 19, 2010)

Nicely done, and some nice staging/panel breakdown.


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## Mulefa Zalif (Apr 19, 2010)

What year is the comic set in?
(I was expecting NÃ¤zis)


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## Alaskan Wolf (May 4, 2010)

The porn in it didn't make me stop reading or anything, but I think it could do better without it. It is an interesting story to read, and I hope you keep working on it.


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## kashra (May 4, 2010)

Voidrunners said:


> Yeah, it's like dangling a beautiful slice of chocolate cake in front of you, then after 15 minutes of chasing it, someone steps out from behind a bush and smashes it into the ground with a hammer.



I do appreciate my storytelling being compared to a beautiful slice of chocolate cake. I also appreciate my gay sex being compared to being pounded with a hammer. Kudos!


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## kashra (May 4, 2010)

Voidrunners said:


> But the whole gay thing just put me right off the whole thing. If it had been ambiguous or not gay, I'd have been following this thing. I'm not irritated about it being gay, more that there was no warning, no reason to suspect it wasn't just a great story being started. Especially as it take so long to actually come to the turn-off point. With so many pages read, your readers are getting committed to the storyline, which makes it an even worse sucker-punch when it hits that page.



More seriously, though. I don't believe readers are entitled to a warning before embarking on a story. Frankly, 16 pages of illustration is a pittance, to read. If you liked the story, you'll probably like the rest of the adventure, sex or not. If you wouldn't have read the story just because it contains gay sex (and I don't blame you for being prude), then at most you wasted 5 minutes of reading time getting to the point where you realize this.


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## Keto BlueKanine (May 4, 2010)

Hey guys.

Wow, I didn't expect this many people to respond to this thread. 

Anyways, let me say a few things:

1) I actually wrote in the descriptions of the pages AND in the journals AND Kashra wrote about it in HIS descriptions too on the pages he posted (which I know people skip.... but for the record, all this information is there)... that the comic has evolved during the process of first making it.

The story was and IS the focus of the comic. The comic DOES have sex in it now, but that's our prerogative.

*Voidrunners:* You're right. We didn't rush into the sex, and we lure our readers to get committed to the story first. I think that was planned and something we wanted.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you and other people at least gave the comic a CHANCE, and decided to start reading it at all. That's all I really wanted, was to give the comic exposure for people to possibly give it a chance.

But I suppose I'm not sure at what you were expecting, beyond what we had done. The comic did NOT just bust out in sudden gay sex. If you read the comic, there WAS obvious warning about what was coming up. Radjin mentioned something like, "At least I have SOMEONE...." and on the next page, the FIRST FRAME you see is make gsd mechanic.... and there's no sex for the REST of that page. 

I'm not trying to come off as rude, but that sounds like enough warning. You could have easily just stopped reading and took whatever you got from the comic.

I COULD have put a warning for gay sex, and yeah I should have, and I apologize for it. But I'm just a bit confused because you said, "I'm not irritated about it being gay, more that there was no warnin", while BEFORE that, you simply stated, "If it had been ambiguous or not gay, I'd have been following this thing." And so from THIS, I can't help but think that the bigger issue for you is not that there was no warning (even if there WAS warning), but more of the fact that it's gay. You don't have to beat around the bush. 

Different strokes for different folks right? I'm allowed to be turned off by lesbian porn, and you're allowed to be turned off by gay porn.

So I'm glad you liked the art and story, honestly I appreciate it. I personally feel like there WAS enough warning, but I'm sorry you didn't. But in the end, if you can't handle the fact that there's two males having sex, then I guess the comic isn't for you, and more for people who can tolerate or appreciate that kinda thing. Which is fine. 

*Kellie Gator:* I will have to respectfully disagree. I personally think there's a difference between a porn with a story versus a story with porn. As I stated above, the story was and IS still the focus. Now, we can try our best to make that apparent, but if it isn't to some people, then I'm sorry, and we can hopefully try harder.  We had time and page-number constraints, so we had to do our best to have a balance. The majory of the comic pages and effort was put into the story though. But just think about it. If done right.... there's no real reason why you can't have a good story with porn. And that was something I personally wanted.
*
Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs:* Hehe, so apparently you at least READ some of the description.  But I hope you kept on reading when I explained HOW we chose Preyfar and why it wasn't a suck up move. If not, I'd happily explain it.

*Mulfa:* It takes place between WWI And WWII.  The little hint was in the opening flashback, during the narration, Radjin refers to "The Great War". 

*JamesB:* As I was saying to Voidrunners, Yes, I should have put a written warning, BUT at the same there, the gay sex does NOT just suddenly appear on the page. There was at least 2 pages of obvious warnings BEFORE the gay sex, that would've easily let anybody stop reading if they're offended or something by gay sex.

*Ilayas:* Next time, we're put a formal written warning. But you're right, the majority IS story, but there WAS 2 pages of warning before the actual gay sex.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, I'm glad you folks at least gave the comic a chance. First a foremost, it's a personal comic we wanted to do for ourselves as art tends to be, and second we realize we can't please everybody. Whether we did it this or that way, somebody would've complained. So I'm sorry you guys were on the short of the stick, but thanks for reading!


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## Ilayas (May 4, 2010)

I think most people that were asking for a warning are mostly referring to your OP.  It's standard procedure that if you are going to link adult work on the forums you make sure to mention that it's NSFW very clearly.  As you did not a lot of us were a little surprised.  I know that you don't view what you are making as your standard flapping pornographic material but just the same if it contains stuff you wouldn't want your boss or your mom to see you viewing you should give the fellow forum readers a heads up when you post the link.  

I do believe I owe you an honest opinion of the comic that you posted however.  I'd be interested to see you continue this comic but I can't say if I'd be interested in following it at this time.  I question if sex is not the main prerogative of your story (as you say).   The adult part of the comic was longer and more explicit then needed to be to establish that your 2 characters were lovers or at lest enjoyed having sex with each other. Even if it was not your intent I get the feeling that the first part of the comic was done just so you could do the adult part.  Compared to the rest of the comic the adult section does very little to advance the plot or character development given the amount of space you devoted to it as compared to the beginning of the comic; which is full of character development and plot.  That's something I'd say regardless of the genders of your 2 characters. 

That's fine if all you are doing is telling a pornographic story with a decent plot.  But it's not ok if it's your goal is to tell a good story with some sex in it.  I certainly won't begrudge any one for wanting to make porn with a story; however I probably won't be reading it. As a heterosexual female I'm really not that into gay porn (just as a gay guy probably isn't much into lesbian porn no matter how well told/drawn).


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## kashra (May 4, 2010)

Ilayas said:


> The adult part of the comic was longer and more explicit then needed to be to establish that your 2 characters were lovers or at lest enjoyed having sex with each other (actually I don't even know the status of their relationship). Even if it was not your intent I get the feeling that the first part of the comic was done just so you could do the adult part.  Compared to the rest of the comic the adult section does very little to advance the plot or character development given the amount of space you devoted to it as compared to the beginning of the comic.



That's a well-spoken critique, but I don't think it's fair. If the objective really was to set up a sex scene, then a lot more time could have been spent on the relationship between Radjin and Kashra, the social mores of the area they are in, and the impetus behind the sex. None of that was very thoroughly hashed out because the objective was, rather, the background of the characters in the greater setting. The sex also added to that background, though as you said, not efficiently.

There was explicit sex. More explicit than necessary to advance plot or character development, but just because something exists to titillate doesn't mean that everything associated with it was. Just because one section does less to advance plot doesn't make it inappropriate.

Taking a hypothetical example more appropriate to comic books: the action sequence. Many pages and some of the most stunning artwork are devoted to characters slugging it out, performing feats of strength and daring, or firing any manner of weaponry at one another. Most of that could be contained in a single frame, if plot and development were the sole purpose of a comic. They're superfluous and always longer than necessary, but you wouldn't accuse a comic writer of writing the rest of the book just so they could get to the action sequence. It's purpose is simply different than other sections.

It serves to excite and immerse the reader. A 4-page fist fight might not be very immersive to some readers, just like two male canines rutting in a hangar might not be, but some people just flip past the parts they find boring and irrelevant, if they're actually interested in the plot. I think people are overly distracted by the fact that this is 'sex' instead of a 'fist fight'.


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## Smelge (May 4, 2010)

Keto BlueKanine said:


> *Voidrunners:* You're right. We didn't rush into the sex, and we lure our readers to get committed to the story first. I think that was planned and something we wanted.



This is a fair thing to want to do. If you get people emotionally invested in your work, it makes them more likely to return to see the next update. Not a problem.



> But I suppose I'm not sure at what you were expecting, beyond what we had done. The comic did NOT just bust out in sudden gay sex. If you read the comic, there WAS obvious warning about what was coming up. Radjin mentioned something like, "At least I have SOMEONE...." and on the next page, the FIRST FRAME you see is make gsd mechanic.... and there's no sex for the REST of that page.



Well, what I was expecting, was from the start what seemed to be a well-written story. It has depth, it has an interesting premise. That lulls the reader into a false sense of security. I wasn't watching for subtle hints of what was to come (or what was going to come in who), I was enjoying the storyline.

It's a great thing when you find a comic that is genuinely interesting and you want to read more. Less so when you start to get right into that world, and find that it's going in a particular direction. The writer and artist know to look for these hints, because it's their creation. The reader generally skips over hints unless they're right there in the middle of the page, staring them right in the eye with flashing neon lights.



> I'm not trying to come off as rude, but that sounds like enough warning. You could have easily just stopped reading and took whatever you got from the comic.



And I did. I enjoyed it while it lasted. The disappointment is in finding out that something that seemed to fit my tastes went off in a different direction.



> I COULD have put a warning for gay sex, and yeah I should have, and I apologize for it.



Even a warning that it was a porn comic would do the job. People would advance with caution, knowing it could go any way.



> But I'm just a bit confused because you said, "I'm not irritated about it being gay, more that there was no warnin", while BEFORE that, you simply stated, "If it had been ambiguous or not gay, I'd have been following this thing." And so from THIS, I can't help but think that the bigger issue for you is not that there was no warning (even if there WAS warning), but more of the fact that it's gay. You don't have to beat around the bush.



I won't lie and say I love gay stuff. I don't. I can manage the whole concept, characters, conversation and stuff, but when it gets graphic, I do not want.

When I said "if it had stayed ambiguous", I meant if for example they'd kissed, gone behind the wing and clothes flew out the other side style. You know it's happening but you don't see. A script where the actual sex stays hidden, or uses strategically placed holes objects would be no problem, and was what was expected. Which is where even a small porn warning would be of use. You know it'll be graphic when it happens.



> So I'm glad you liked the art and story, honestly I appreciate it. I personally feel like there WAS enough warning, but I'm sorry you didn't. But in the end, if you can't handle the fact that there's two males having sex, then I guess the comic isn't for you, and more for people who can tolerate or appreciate that kinda thing. Which is fine.



See, basically, the porn aspect is the biggie. Most porn comics have very little plot beyond: 

Characters>characters get naked>characters fuck>forced humour/awkwardness ensues

With variable art quality, because the chances are the artist is doing it one-handed.

So hitting your comic with a decent premise, good art and a developing storyline throws people off balance. This seems like a series to invest into. I care about these characters. Which is absolutely 100% what you need to have recurring visitors. Which is possibly why the sex scene comes as a surprise. What starts as a comic for the majority of the people suddenly cuts out a wide demographic. True, there may have been hints, but they're not until people are invested into it. As I said weeks ago, it builds up for the reader, then those that aren't in the target audience feel like they've been handed a bum deal to the point where it could even be seen as slightly malicious. Bait and switch.

Now, I wish I could write or draw half as good as what's in this comic. But in the end, the change from possible action to porn comic was just annoying.

And apologies if this irritates.


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## Satoshi (May 4, 2010)

What I don't understand why it always has to be gay or lesbian.
I guess straight porn didn't exist in that time period :I

Then again, I do understand the artist/writers right and what they like and what nots.
It's just a baffling thing to me.


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## Smelge (May 4, 2010)

Satoshi said:


> What I don't understand why it always has to be gay or lesbian.
> I guess straight porn didn't exist in that time period :I
> 
> Then again, I do understand the artist/writers right and what they like and what nots.
> It's just a baffling thing to me.



Ahh.

This is like someone viewing an artists drawing and going "Well, it's nice and all, but there's not enough dog cock. Draw some in your next picture".

Fair enough, this is what the writer/artist wants to write/draw. It's just slightly irritating when it takes so long to resolve itself as porn, gay, lesbian or straight.


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## Satoshi (May 4, 2010)

Yeah :B 
Usually I think the main story shouldn't have porn at all, save it for side stories and fun stuff like that. :c


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## Smelge (May 4, 2010)

Satoshi said:


> Yeah :B
> Usually I think the main story shouldn't have porn at all, save it for side stories and fun stuff like that. :c



A little button at the side marked "HOT DICKINGS".


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## Satoshi (May 4, 2010)

FULL OF IT.

OM NOM NOM.


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## Ilayas (May 4, 2010)

kashra said:


> That's a well-spoken critique, but I don't think it's fair. If the objective really was to set up a sex scene, then a lot more time could have been spent on the relationship between Radjin and Kashra, the social mores of the area they are in, and the impetus behind the sex. None of that was very thoroughly hashed out because the objective was, rather, the background of the characters in the greater setting. The sex also added to that background, though as you said, not efficiently.
> 
> There was explicit sex. More explicit than necessary to advance plot or character development, but just because something exists to titillate doesn't mean that everything associated with it was. Just because one section does less to advance plot doesn't make it inappropriate.
> 
> ...




I feel the comparison of a fight sequence in a comic book and the sex seen in this one isn't a good comparison.  If the main focus of a comic book story is the battle between 2 apposing factions then I would expect that there would be a lot of time and space devoted to action sequences when their conflict comes to a head.  The conflict between these 2 factions is what the comic is about.  The time devoted to an action sequence isn't just fluff to entice readers but also to add more more emphasize on it's importance to the overall plot.  In good story telling the time spent dealing with events should be proportional to it's overall importance in the narrative.  That's not to say that I haven't stopped reading comics because I felt they took far to much time with action sequences and not enough with plot; so action sequences can be over done as well.  

In this comic a lot of time and space is devoted to these 2 character's sexual encounter.  That seems to suggest that a good portion of the story is going to focus on sex or at lest these 2 characters' romantic relationship; and that really doesn't interest me (neither the sex nor the romance).  I would much rather read a story/comic were there aren't sections that I feel the need to "flip past" because they are boring or uninteresting.  

However, as I implied before, I would really like to see more from this comic.  What has been shown thus far appears to be but a small portion of what is likely to be a much larger story.  I'd have to read more to pass my ultimate judgment.  For all I know their little romp in the hanger could have a lot of importance to the overall plot and did warrant spending that much time on it.


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## kashra (May 4, 2010)

Satoshi said:


> What I don't understand why it always has to be gay or lesbian.



There is such a ridiculous amount of straight furry porn out there. I'm always blown away when someone suggests it's mostly gay or lesbian.


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## kashra (May 4, 2010)

Ilayas said:


> I feel the comparison of a fight sequence in a comic book and the sex seen in this one isn't a good comparison.  If the main focus of a comic book story is the battle between 2 apposing factions then I would expect that there would be a lot of time and space devoted to action sequences when their conflict comes to a head.  The conflict between these 2 factions is what the comic is about.  The time devoted to an action sequence isn't just fluff to entice readers but also to add more more emphasize on it's importance to the overall plot. In good story telling the time spent dealing with events should be proportional to it's overall importance in the narrative.  That's not to say that I haven't stopped reading comics because I felt they took far to much time with action sequences and not enough with plot; so action sequences can be over done as well.



I guess there is a fundamental difference of opinion here over what good storytelling is, but I can respect that. If you consider the relative "time" spent on sex vs plot (about 1:3 if you're generous to the sex), I think that's a fair approximation of the importance of that romantic relationship to the overall plot.

Still, I don't begrudge an exciting action sequence between the hero and a bunch of goons in V for Vendetta, just because the comic is actually about the oppression of an overreaching government.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (May 4, 2010)

Keto BlueKanine said:


> *
> Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs:* Hehe, so apparently you at least READ some of the description.  But I hope you kept on reading when I explained HOW we chose Preyfar and why it wasn't a suck up move. If not, I'd happily explain it.



Nah. It's cool. I read where you said one of your friends used to hang with the guy.



> NEEDLESS TO SAY, I'm glad you folks at least gave the comic a chance.  First a foremost, it's a personal comic we wanted to do for ourselves as  art tends to be, and second we realize we can't please everybody.  Whether we did it this or that way, somebody would've complained. So I'm  sorry you guys were on the short of the stick, but thanks for reading!



And they probably still will. No one on here is going to admit it, but it's true.


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