# POLL: Parents hitting kids: Child abuse or disipline?



## Get-dancing (Feb 25, 2007)

Child corporal punishment, should we still allow it?


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## Infinity (Feb 25, 2007)

I would think that at times the answer to this question could easily be both. So, yeah... can't make a firm decision...

*No full HP!*


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## capthavoc123 (Feb 25, 2007)

I would say yes because your question is so vague. Hit could mean anything from slapping a child's hand if they're about to touch the stove to beating a child for not doing their homework. The first case is acceptable but the second is not, and to say I'm against the idea of of a parent hitting their children would be a fallacy.


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## uncia2000 (Feb 25, 2007)

capthavoc123 said:
			
		

> Hit could mean anything from slapping a child's hand if they're about to touch the stove...



... Point to the panther, IMO.


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## Get-dancing (Feb 25, 2007)

Well its easy to misenterpritate. I only really ment for the purposes of corporal punishment.


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## Hanazawa (Feb 25, 2007)

I think there are more effective ways of disciplining some children, but I definitely have no problem with a parent who gives a kid a quick whack when they're doing something they *already know they're not supposed to do*. Meaning the child has to be old enough to understand what it's doing wrong before you punish it for anything.


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## Petrock (Feb 25, 2007)

I say that if it's uncalled for (say, the child hasn't been warned at all before), then you shouldn't hit the kid. If you plan on leaving welts or bruises, don't hit the kid and go get mental help. If, say, the kid has paintballed the car for the third time in a week and htey know it's against the rules, a spanking isn't bad. Just don't leave permnant damage or anything. Corporal punishment should be light, at best, and the main focus of punishment should be a restriction of some kind, with corporal punishment being secondary (and don't do it to the kid twelve hours after the fact, because then it's lost its potency to correct behavior.)


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## Magica (Feb 25, 2007)

I grew up with spanking as a discipline (Mom did the plastic spatula or the wooden spoon), and in my opinion spanking on the butt, little swap on the hand, or slight pop on the mouth (for swearing or biting) shouldn't hurt the kid, but give them the idea that whatever they did they weren't supposed to do.  Don't be one of those parents that sit on their ass all day and scream "stop it!" or "honey, please stop ."  Get up off your ass and move them away from what they're doing and give a time out if needed.

Seeing the way the kids act on those Supernanny shows though, goddamn.


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## XeNoX (Feb 25, 2007)

don't hit your kids if you wouldn't hit your boss
easy as that


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## Aikon (Feb 25, 2007)

XeNoX said:
			
		

> don't hit your kids if you wouldn't hit your boss
> easy as that



Yeah because we all know when your boss does wrong there's nothing like a smack on the rear end to set him straight.Â Â And if that won't work, then we bring out THE PADDLE.


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## soundhound (Feb 25, 2007)

on the ass, sure. everywhere else, no.









that's what she said


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## thegreathamster (Feb 25, 2007)

Depends.

I believe in old fashion discipline. A pop on the arm or the butt if your brat didn't listen after being told many MANY times to do something but I don't believe in beating your child to a pulp. A spanking is sometimes necessary. A beating isn't. I don't want any kid to have be beaten daily and hide their bruises with make-up like what I use to do. If I farted too loud when my aunt had company, I was smacked around. That isn't discipline. That's sadistic! But at the same time, I don't believe in no physical discipline. The mother of one of my little sister's friends raised all her kids through verbal discipline (because she grew up like I did). Last time they were here, her eight year old, serial-killer-in-the-making son came over with a sharped stick and was threating to stab everyone with it after he was KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL for threaten to kill a student while choking him! That kid is a menace and needs a good butt whipping. Everytime he is about to do something bad, all his mother says to him is "Zacky, don't do it! You know mommy won't like it!" or whatever and he says "I'm gonna do it!" and does it, then laugh. I swear, if that kid don't need a spanking (and psychotherapy), I don't know what does!


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## Wyrwulf (Feb 25, 2007)

Why just hitting? There are all kinds of ways to inflict pain that don't involve striking the kid.

My parents had a policy of never hitting us more than once in a row (no spakings). The worse you screwed up, the more force went into that one hit.


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## davuu (Feb 25, 2007)

depends theres a fine line behind dicsipline and abuse,

 not going into massive detail, I cna understand reasons why no hitting is put into place, as once its taken away some people take it as a free for all and go too far, but then again behind closed doors.... probally happens anyhow. 

 in the uk now, you arent evn allowed ot tell your child they are bad, put crosses if theyve done wrong, ignore them if theyre naughty, and other things i cant remeber as they annoyed me greatly as all of them can be deemed emotional abuseÂ¬Â¬ 

 i think thts going too far, and i wonder why uk grades are going rock bottomÂ¬Â¬


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## TacoTai (Feb 25, 2007)

I agree with the idea that if the kid has been told not to do it before, a slap or a spanking is in order. But if you just beat up the kid for your own personal problems, or just because, you shouldn't even have kids.


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## uncia2000 (Feb 25, 2007)

_*tailwaves over to the chita*_


			
				davuu said:
			
		

> in the uk now, you arent evn allowed ot tell your child they are bad, put crosses if theyve done wrong, ignore them if theyre naughty, and other things i cant remeber as they annoyed me greatly as all of them can be deemed emotional abuseÂ¬Â¬


_*nodnods*_ The potential for "emotional abuse" that can have more detrimental effects on long-term development/behavior than the aforementioned slap on the back of the wrist for being about to touch the stove _is_ definitely more insidious, though.
Seems to be that there's more of a tendency to use that haphazardly nowadays rather than methods of discipline which will be picked up and reported...

d.


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## InvaderPichu (Feb 25, 2007)

I believe it is ok to slap/hit/beat a kid depending on the circumstances.


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## iller (Feb 25, 2007)

My Mom tried to hit me all the freakin time and the only thing it taught me was to slump to the floor to avoid her hand.  ...but it made her feel better so.... meh, whatever. 

She never hit my Sister tho b/c she was her Favorite child.  So whenever a parent says _"This is for your own good"_, it really means "Society forces me to love you, but that doesn't me I have to treat you like an Equal" and hey, isn't that what Freedom's all about?  ...*proceeds to check the situational option*


EDIT: Now if you wanna talk about actually having an Effect... then Behavioral Psychiatry dictates that Punishment is almost entirely pointless on Children and Animals.  You gotta catch them in the act and scare the s#%t out of 'em so that they associate what they're doing with the Negative Reinforcement.   Personally I can't wait to have a kid, I'm gonna be like Ninja Dad with my foot up his ass when he least expects it ....  "A THOUSAND YEARS OF PAIN!"


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## blackdragoon (Feb 25, 2007)

i vote yes. simple. and yah i got my ass whooped with a thick leather belt tons of times when i was growing up so i know as much as it hurts it does actually help in the end....though in my personal case it didn't work too well at first.....as a result i got smacked around all the time. but hey _we_ i mean _I_ turned okay....


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## Caution_Cat (Feb 25, 2007)

Parents should be allowed to discipline their child. Spanking after catching a child doing something wrong, rude, or disobeying usually helps prevent the child from doing it again. They learn the hard way if they don't listen.
But a spanking, compared to a beating is very different. A beating would be abuse.
Bruises, cuts, and so on shouldn't happen with proper discipline.


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## crabby_the_frog (Feb 26, 2007)

Petrock said:
			
		

> the main focus of punishment should be a restriction of some kind



you mean like:
No more video games for you!!! *breaks fingers*


But yeah, seriously, if it's just hitting the kid over someting small, no. if it's for a purpose, then by all means. But I've seen things like "oh you were late coming home?" *knocks kid to the floor with a swift slap to the head*... hitting just because isn't cool.

My thought, if the kid lives in fear of it happpening again, it's a problem. If it's a minor inconvenience (no TV/internet/etc or slap on wrist/cheek) then it's good enough.


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## Aikon (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm inbetween on this.Â Â Obviously, I'm against kids getting beaten up by their parents.Â Â On the other hand, I believe sometimes a swift hand to butt is in order.Â Â I'm in the middle of it all though, I honestly don't see a problem with spanking, but at the same time I think paresnts do it too often as a quick fix, and if ya do it all the time well then that defeats the purpose I think.

When it comes to school, teachers better keep their hands to themselves.Â Â Teachers don't have any right to punish someone's kid that way.Â Â Especially guy teachers, I dunno about anyone else's school but before my school had a no corporal punishment rule go into effect the guy teachers had these gigantic paddles with holes in 'em.Â Â Screw that, that's just overkill.Â Â The sight of that damn paddle didn't bring just fear in my eyes, anger as well, and that again defeats the purpose.Â Â I was in fifth grade when all this stuff was still allowed.Â Â 

So here I sit, on the fence, undecided between which side is the greenest one.Â Â Thankfully I'll never kids so I don't really care too much about it.


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## shy (Feb 26, 2007)

I was at a wal*mart looking at various facial products and I could hear this child and it's mother coming down the isle. The kid was screaming at the top of its lungs, "MOMMY. MOMMY I'LL BE GOOD. MOMMY I WANT IT. MOMMY. AHHHHH. MOM. MOM I'LL BE GOOD MOM. I WANT IT MOM." She has very calm toned with her, "Hush. Be quiet, now. No. You were bad. You aren't getting anything today."

Finally the woman is standing a couple feet from me trying to finish her shopping and this child, who could not have been 4 years old, punches his mother right in her stomach hard and screams "I'LL BE GOOD MOM." Oh my goodness, no. She backhanded the kid right there, right across is stupid face. I just looked at her and chuckled and nodded in agreement. I would have done the same damn thing if my child did something that stupid. I am not for hitting children for any reason but the day my child throws their hand at me is the day they get knocked the motherf*** down and reminded who is boss. 

There are some things I feel just require a physical response to. But in general I see no real reason to hit a child. It should be left for the most abhorrent acts done by a child because the point of it is to shock them, not so much to hurt them, which is why it is done in situations where the child needs to immediately understand what they are doing is "NOT OKAY". Pain can be a great motivator but the whole act of inflicting it upon your child can hurt more than help in the long run. Continued use of corporal punishment, or its use as the sole form of punishment only desensitizes, I believe. Taking away privledges and bestowing chores works a lot better, especially as children grow older.


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## nobuyuki (Feb 26, 2007)

yes it's child abuse, if it's continuous and based solely on irrationalities of the parent, but when a kid consistantly does something really bad (one time offenses where they know they did something wrong don't count) despite all your best efforts, a good ass whipping is the first and only time they need to remember it for the rest of their life.

Go go gadget neurosis


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## Blackwing Dragon (Feb 26, 2007)

My sister is stupid as fuck. Her kid is even more stupid. We ask it nicely to stfu, to do this or that, he just keeps talking and acting retarded without giving two shits. If you play it not to play near windows it can easily break, it doesn't give a shit and starts arguing.
So yes, I support it.

Because one insanely large slap is all any kid needs to get back in its' place.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 26, 2007)

I think parents have the right to punish their kids, but hitting... well, it all depends on the definition of "hittin". A spanking, cool. Punching yer child in the head? NOT cool. Slapping your child's hands when they reach for something they shouldn't. Cool. Taking a baseball bat and going Capone on your child, NOT cool.


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## Vgm22 (Feb 26, 2007)

I choose "depends". It depends weither it's child abuse or Disipline. If your smacking the shit out of your kid because he/she won't STFU after a few warning then it's disipline, but if you go right off and slug the kid with out warnings then that's child abuse in my opinion. What I don't like is the fact certain parents throw threre kid or kids in a closet for weeks on end, with no food, water or bathroom privlages. Now that just makes me sick!


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## Satoshi (Feb 26, 2007)

Depends on if the kid is really bad o_o; Like talks back to their parents and calls them names D:

I have cousins that are like that, and I just wanna pop them in the face XD


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 26, 2007)

Children are people, and people have individual personalities. It just depends.


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## Ylm (Feb 26, 2007)

Blackwing Dragon said:
			
		

> Because one insanely large slap is all any kid needs to get back in its' place.




Oh, Blackie.


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## quark (Feb 26, 2007)

shy said:
			
		

> Finally the woman is standing a couple feet from me trying to finish her shopping and this child, who could not have been 4 years old, punches his mother right in her stomach hard and screams "I'LL BE GOOD MOM." Oh my goodness, no. She backhanded the kid right there, right across is stupid face. I just looked at her and chuckled and nodded in agreement. I would have done the same damn thing if my child did something that stupid. I am not for hitting children for any reason but the day my child throws their hand at me is the day they get knocked the motherf*** down and reminded who is boss.



This story gave me a good laugh. Especially the kid deciding that the best way to convince his mother that he'll behave is by punching her in the stomach.  Way to go, kid. Way to go.
Anyway, I think it depends on the kid. Some kids don't need a swat that often, as some will just break down and cry and behave with only a harsh word.  My niece was one of those kids. All her parents needed to do was tell her that she was being bad, and she would start crying, and the bad behaviour would stop immediately.
Others, you can give them as many warnings, threats, taking away of privileges, what have you, and it does absolutely nothing.  Those are the kids who need a spanking to get put in their place.  Again, I knew a kid and her parents constantly threatened her with spankings, and it seemed like she never had her toys, because they got taken away so often.  It never seemed to work, and I think in those kinds of cases, a spanking might be the only way to get through to them.
My parents spanked me, but only when I was really out of line.  My one brother though, he got spankings a LOT.  My mom actually broke a spoon on him, because he would never behave.  I think the trick is to find the punishment that has the most effect for each individual kid, and then stick with it. That's probably why some kids in the same family get more spankings, and others less.


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## crabby_the_frog (Feb 26, 2007)

I still say negative reinforcement is a definate motivation. :3

"GIMME CANDY! NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW!!!" (I hate the whole "gimme now" thing)

um... you can't eat candy if you don't have any teeth left, eh?


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## Seras (Feb 26, 2007)

I spank my kids =P  I don't give them a black eye though.


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## Seto Ashura (Feb 26, 2007)

This question is pretty interesting; I guess it all depends on how hard you hit.


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## Rostam The Grey (Feb 26, 2007)

If you going to do it, do it right!










...j/k. If the moment calls for it, it should be allowed. But most importantly, people shouldn't be scared that they may go to jail for punishing their children...


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## Seto Ashura (Feb 26, 2007)

That is, by far, the coolest thing I've seen all day.


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## WolfSoldier (Feb 26, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> If you going to do it, do it right!
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Dude that kid is getting run over by a Subi
I would have to agree with you if the moment calls for it but it should not be excessive or uncalled for


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

Woah, I can't believe the poll results... To me it's _obvious_ that you shouldn't slap or beat your kid. In my home country home violence is sadly a big problem - at least according to the campaigns I've seen.

It goes without saying that you got to have authority over your kids and that there has to be discipline in the family. But it shouldn't be physical. A child has the right to feel physically safe in his or her home just like adults do. My parents never slapped me or harmed me in any way... But there lived a kid next doors who almost had his ear ripped off by his parents. Stuff like that makes me sad. To me it seems that violence comes in when people are not good with words or when they can't give reasons for their decisions... But parents should know better than to hurt their kids.


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## diarmaidhuthence (Feb 27, 2007)

I draw the line at being booted up the arse by a man twice your height because you're not able to keep up with a runaway bull on a country road. Bitter? Who, me?
Still, I have a brother who I can't wait for the day he finally pushes my mother too far with his annoying behaviour. She'll break the wooden spoon into pieces on him.


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## capthavoc123 (Feb 27, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> Woah, I can't believe the poll results... To me it's _obvious_ that you shouldn't slap or beat your kid. In my home country home violence is sadly a big problem - at least according to the campaigns I've seen.
> 
> It goes without saying that you got to have authority over your kids and that there has to be discipline in the family. But it shouldn't be physical. A child has the right to feel physically safe in his or her home just like adults do. My parents never slapped me or harmed me in any way... But there lived a kid next doors who almost had his ear ripped off by his parents. Stuff like that makes me sad. To me it seems that violence comes in when people are not good with words or when they can't give reasons for their decisions... But parents should know better than to hurt their kids.


The worst-behaved kids are the ones who have never faced corporal punishment. These tend to be the kids who will whip on other kids because they don't know what it's like. In the fifties it was common practice to paddle a child in school, and just look! They didn't have school shootings!

Your example is flawed, also. You go from a child not being touched at all to a child having his ear ripped off. Your lack of exposure means you have no idea of the majority of parents who find the happy medium: a swat on the rear or a stiff slap on the arm is enough for most parents to discipline their children, and enough for most children to get the message.

Remember, it's the same way that a puppy is disciplined, and nobody seems to care about that. And there is not much intellectual difference between a puppy and a toddler.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 27, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> Woah, I can't believe the poll results... To me it's _obvious_ that you shouldn't slap or beat your kid. In my home country home violence is sadly a big problem - at least according to the campaigns I've seen.
> 
> It goes without saying that you got to have authority over your kids and that there has to be discipline in the family. But it shouldn't be physical. A child has the right to feel physically safe in his or her home just like adults do. My parents never slapped me or harmed me in any way... But there lived a kid next doors who almost had his ear ripped off by his parents. Stuff like that makes me sad. To me it seems that violence comes in when people are not good with words or when they can't give reasons for their decisions... But parents should know better than to hurt their kids.



Since when is spanking a child = BEATING/SLAPPING? There is quite a difference. I'm quite shocked you lumped it in the same category.


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## ArrowTibbs (Feb 27, 2007)

Physical punishment is acceptable if: The kid knows they're doing wrong and have been warned not to do it ("I'm going to count to three..."). It has to be open hand; no punching, no using a belt or paddle or anything like that. 

I was spanked as a younger kid, from probably 4 until 6 or 7. From then on my parents never laid a hand on me. 

And everyone who's all for verbal punishment and so forth...Keep in mind that verbal punishment can still become abuse, there is such a thing as emotional abuse. It depends on the parent and the child but it can become just as abusive as hitting your kid with a leather belt is percieved to be.


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## Sylvine (Feb 27, 2007)

Well... I'll never know until I become a parent. Easy as that. 

I could go on with pointless listing on arguments pro and contra, but it's a bit like the issue with lying... You know You shouldn't, until the situation arises where it's necessary. 

From personal experience, I can say that the physical punishment I took didn't damage my psyche too much ( well, other than evidently being a fan of anthro art =P ), but I wasn't really _abused_ per se. 

I can also say that some things, especially punishment I received without having done anything wrong ( or at least not THAT wrong; there was an instance or two of that problem in my life ), really leave a nasty little memory that You keep thinking about for until You are mature enough to understand the motives. 

It would be cool never to have to experience such things, but, as I said, I think I matured a bit, and I can understand the motives - and in that, I can't really oppose to physical punishment as a last resort. And I also think it's important to have laws against physical child abuse. Overinterpretation of those is a danger, yes, but I think it's more dangerous having parents who think it's okay to burn their kids with 'rette lighters if they're naughty. Yes, there are people like that out there, sadly. 

~Sylv


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

capthavoc123 said:
			
		

> Charha said:
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So you're saying that if people would spank their children like they did in the 50s, there wouldn't be school shootings? A lot of things have changed during half a century. You might as well say that ancient Romans didn't bring guns to school because they had the opportunity to watch gladiators in the arena... 

Of course I didn't mean that a child wouldn't be touched at all. There is a difference between giving your child a hug and flipping him or her about the ears. I believe that a person who has had a safe childhood and positive relationship to his or her parents is less likely to hit others than a person who has grown up enduring domestic violence. It's unnecessary to smack children when you have other (and better) means to discipline them.


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

Also, 





			
				Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Since when is spanking a child = BEATING/SLAPPING? There is quite a difference. I'm quite shocked you lumped it in the same category.



If one is capable of punishing a child physically in the first place, then you might as well lump it all in the same category; what was intended to be a little spanking might feel just as bad as beating to the child. The line between the two might be vague, especially if the parent in question is very angry.


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## Epsereth (Feb 27, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> what was intended to be a little spanking might feel just as bad as beating to the child.



Man, I got my share of _real_ sound spankings growing up, and I remember that the humiliation was worse than the pain.

(Granted, I was never belted or anything, but you get what I'm saying.)

Anyway, I don't think any punishment should be implemented without the parent explaining why the kid's being punished. That way it removes the confusion.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 27, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> Also,
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Yeah like someone else said verbal abuse doesn't stick with one either? Abuse is abuse, there is a difference between abuse and punishment. To lump them in the same category lacks real rationale.


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

Corporal punishment should be a thing of the past. You can always call it "a way of educating the child", but the whole concept of teaching an individual by causing physical pain is simply barbaric. I'm glad such disciplinary methods are largely rejected these days and considered illegal in many countries.

The childhood friend I mentioned usually got pulled by the scruff of his neck or spanked on the buttocks... But sometimes it was more than that, depending on how angry his parents were. I think there was a serious lack of parental skills in his family.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 27, 2007)

Yeah one base case of your experience = EVERYONE's experience. That's some great internet math there.


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## DruoxTheFurrinator (Feb 27, 2007)

As far as I'm concerned and seeing how kids treat their parents, if my kid ever snapped at me I'd punch it right in the f***ing face!

And whoever those DYFIS assholes are can take that mistake from me too.

I believe in hitting your brats!

I will be treated with respect by my child, if not i'll punch it until it registers in its flat head.

However, I would never hit a kid for doing something wrong, there are worse fates than a bruise...

And never for no reason either ^^


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Yeah one base case of your experience = EVERYONE's experience. That's some great internet math there.



Hey, don't patronize me. It was merely _an example_ of how angry parents can harm their child, trying to justify the fact by saying that "it's for their own good". I mentioned this case because it happened in my neighbourhood and some of those memories still make me thoughtful. As I said before, domestic violence is a big problem in my country. It's an everyday matter.

I still think that corporeal punishment should be regarded as child abuse. When a child gets hurt I don't care what they call it - it doesn't matter if it's a "punishment" or a "disciplinary act". What counts is that it's wrong. It feels wrong to me. I would never slap, spank or hit my child.


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## DruoxTheFurrinator (Feb 27, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> What counts is that it's wrong. It feels wrong to me. I would never slap, spank or hit my child.



And when your kid(s) take advantage of that and treat you like shit, don't you DARE complain to anyone


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

DruoxTheFurrinator said:
			
		

> And when your kid(s) take advantage of that and treat you like shit, don't you DARE complain to anyone



Honestly speaking, I would love my children even if they hated me. Maybe you'll understand one day.


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## capthavoc123 (Feb 27, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> DruoxTheFurrinator said:
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You're just full of extremes, aren't you? Complaining about your kids does NOT mean you don't love them.


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

capthavoc123 said:
			
		

> You're just full of extremes, aren't you? Complaining about your kids does NOT mean you don't love them.



Huh? Why are you picking on me again? I'd love my kids so much I wouldn't have a reason to complain. This is what I meant and I hope you don't have a problem with that. Peace, man.


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## quark (Feb 27, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> Charha said:
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I'm totally agreeing with this here. I got spanked (sometimes with a belt, although if I had kids, I would never use a belt on them)when I was younger and I cried every time, but it was out of humiliation, and shame for doing something very bad.  It wasn't really out of pain. It did hurt, sure, but it's not the big 'OMG TRAMAUTIC MOMENT!!!!' that some people make spankings out to be.  My spankings were almost always given after I had time to think about what I had done wrong, and after an explaination from my parents about why I was getting the spanking.  I do not view it as abuse, and am very glad that my parents punished me the way they did.
Looking back now, I don't remember the actual spanking itself. What I remember was what I had done to get the spanking.  I think this is true for most kids. The harsher a punishment they get, the more they remember what they had done wrong, and they are going to associate doing that thing with getting a spanking, therefore, it's going to deter them from doing it again.
And to Charha, it sounds like most of the people on this forum got spankings, yet very few of them are talking about the spankings as if they were something tramautic and devestating, and as far as I've read, no one regards the spankings as being abusive. 
And the example that you used of the kid getting pulled by the scruff of the neck, or the parents ripping on his ears does verge on abuse.  Those sound like physical actions being taken simply because the parents were angry, not because they had the kids welfare at heart.  I will never condone abusing a child, whether mentally or physically, but a light swat on the rump is not going to harm them, and most likely will help them.
Also, I would much rather have someone calmly explain to me what I had done wrong, and get a spanking, than get yelled at, or get constantly told that I'm bad, or worse yet, just have some weak-willed parent who just lets the kids do whatever, because they're too spineless to discipline the kids.


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## Kittiara (Feb 27, 2007)

Beating, slapping, spanking, or physically inflicting pain on a child has never settled right in my mind.  My parents never lifted a finger at me and I'm infinitely glad they didn't.

In any case, I can't imagine myself being able to do any of that to my own child.  Maybe this is just me, but the idea is heartbreaking.  I grew up very well with only words and explanations, even harsh ones, and I was never called more than a 'brat' on perhaps two occassions.  No doubt this heavily influences my decision, as well as being able to hear my neighbors screaming and slapping their kids from all the way over here.


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## Epsereth (Feb 27, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> snipsnip



An addendum I could add that would bolster it even better for Charha's and Kittiara's benefit ... consider the parents who use corporal punishment very sparingly. I was rarely spanked, and when I was it wasn't out of impulse and I knew my parents didn't like doing it. When children are spanked only when it's really deserved, it'll stick out more in their minds. I have a younger cousin who has been spanked fewer times than can be counted on both hands, and only once was the leather end of a belt ever used on him - and he can tell you exactly what each spanking was for, when it was, and that he has never done whatever it was again. And he certainly isn't of the opinion that it was abuse! And he's actually a very well-behaved fellow now.

Also spanking =/= beating. I don't condone the latter. Spanking is like a lioness mum snarling and snapping at her cub to give him a good stern warning - and nobody ever says that's cruel.


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

On further reflect, I think this is another culture related issue. In my country domestic violence is taken very seriously, because it seems here people don't just gently slap their kids on the bottom - when a child is punished he most likely gets bruised as well.

My reaction to this topic was pretty strong because the poll in question was about "parents hitting kids". I think it's pretty alarming if people think that parents should have the right to actually hit their children.


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## Rouge2 (Feb 27, 2007)

It depends, if it's because the child did something wrong, it's discipline.

If they're doing it for the hell of it, it's Child Abuse.


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## Rostam The Grey (Feb 27, 2007)

Lets take a quick second to establish the difference.

Spanking = natural child punishment
Spanking != abuse

Bruises = abuse
Loosing ears = abuse
Slapping = abuse

The biggest difference is abuse establishes an emotion of inadequecy or hate. Non-abusive methods result in an emotion of embarrasment or guilt. When I was spanked as a child I felt either guilty or embarrased. I did not feel abused, unloved, or inadequate... I believe in spanking and have children of my own. I can say that if you use it right, and raise your children right, you will only have to do this once or twice to instill in your child that they don't want to get to this point. Children will test you, and eventually, they will test methods such as time out. So eventually you'll have to either bow down to them, or lay down the law. I'm not claiming to be Super Nanny. But at the same time, I don't need Super Nanny's help. I have wonderful children that are very obediant and haven't been spanked in almost 3 years... It's probably been a few months since I've had to send one to time out... I use a combination of loss of privledges, time out, and corporal punishment. But the punishment always fits the crime.

PS: Counting doesn't work...


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## Charha (Feb 27, 2007)

Here's another thought from a historical viewpoint. Less than a century ago it was considered morally acceptable to punish servants and wives corporally when they weren't behaving well. These days such behaviour is out of the question. Most female rights activists are disgusted at the way some religious fundamendalists and other traditionalists correct their spouses by for example pulling their hair, slapping them or humiliating them. That's the stuff you see in newspapers, Amnesty reports and articles.

I wonder why is it that spanking children still seems natural. It might be the easiest way of making the child learn fast and stop asking questions, but I personally think it's ethically questionable. Anyway, it seems I belong to the minority here, so I'll just find myself something less depressing to think about. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my thoughts. Every once in a while I see a thread worth taking part in and this was one of them.

G'night, folks. Love your kids. Love them right or love them wrong. Just love them the best you can. <3


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## foxkun (Feb 28, 2007)

I would say I was raised pretty much as Rostram's kids are being raised. I was spanked once in a very great while (there was a story that my mom slapped me once because I called her a bitch when I was 13, but I don't remember that incident and was horrified that I would ever say such a thing to her when I heard the story). But on the other hand, my parents explained things, why things were wrong or bad. I feel like I've always had a pretty good moral sense, the problem is I don't know why that is, which I worry about because I don't know if I'm going to instill that in my kids - IF I have kids.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey why not? - you did to everyone else who disagreed with you on this thread. This is why you're *WRONG* (yes in big bold letters). You are not wrong to have an opinion, and how you want to raise your own children is quite fine. You overstepped the line when you decided that your own experience decided to become the outcome of how everyone else should raise their own current and future children.

I'm not telling you that you have to spank your child either. I just don't think it's wrong to spank a child because as I made a short and to the point post earlier- *Children are people, and individuals* a method that worked for your upbringing may not work for another person. To sit there and play high and mighty armchair psychologist, sit back and take a bite out of humble pie will you?

It's perfectly great to say what worked for you, however, you are not everyone. To be a parent is HARD. People who thought they were gonna be better than their parents end up being worse parents and making just as many or more mistakes than their parents did. People who you thought would be awful parents turn out to be great parents and vice versa. I can't tell you the number of times people want solutions like "well they should make parenting licenses" or some other crazy socialist idea. The problem is, hey we have licenses for everything else like guns, fishing, driving and problems still happen.

We aren't talking about a simple action, we're talking about *years* of upbringing. Your child in their toddler years may be out of control, but then settle down as they become older. The opposite has also happened. There are too many scenarios and changes and you do the best you can. You have to see what method works best. 

I don't think this thread was ever about "Is it ok to beat the shit out of your child" I think there was already an agreement that it was wrong. So everyone else can jump off that talking point bandwagon now.

If you want to say spanking or not spanking worked for you that's also fine. The minute you want to try to equate your one experience as a whole that should be applied to everyone else, you should expect people to argue back. So you can't cry about being "picked on"


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## dragonfan (Feb 28, 2007)

i believe it's not okay to hit a minor at all it's very rude and inconsiderate children can actaully call police on their parents if that happens.i learned from my parents that hitting a minor while being a adult is against the law and wrong.


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## Melo (Feb 28, 2007)

DragonMagica said:
			
		

> I grew up with spanking as a discipline (Mom did the plastic spatula or the wooden spoon)



My mother use to use a wooden spoon or plastic spatula also. I hated those things. They sting. 

We use to break them when she wasn't around, but when we acted up and the time of judgment shadowed upon us, she always managed to pull a fresh one out of the kitchen drawer. :?


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## Kittiara (Feb 28, 2007)

Well, Epsereth, thanks for trying but I've already read all the replies and seen that point of view is prevalent, and I still don't agree with it.Â Â I'm not gonna argue with you guys about it because it's very obvious many children are physically punished (lightly), but I know I could never do it and it'll stay that way.


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## Charha (Feb 28, 2007)

What the heck, Arshes? Try to be civil, okay? This was a poll about parents hitting their kids (at least that's what it says in the topic). I already told you that what I said about the kid living next doors was an example of how kids are treated badly by their parents. An example, yes? Not like, a universal way children are treated throughout the globe. However, the incident is related to my views on bad parenting and I think I made that clear. Where am I crossing the line, exactly? I have a feeling you misinterpret me.

What you said about children being individuals... I think the situation these days is still quite the opposite. I believe there is still this strong subconcious notion that children not only belong to their parents, but it is alright to punish them physically. You can't spank your wife and you certainly can't spank the people who work for you, but you can spank your kids.

I'm not pretending to be Piaget. I'm simply horrified at the idea of corporal punishement just like any decent and well-educated European person would. :|


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> What the heck, Arshes? Try to be civil, okay?



You lost "civility" when you said that corporal punishment = child abuse. You just pretty much insulted every person who has parents or are a parent themselves who have to actually deal with children, that use spanking as a form of discipline, not abuse.

Let's start calling people child abusers now I mean come on!


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## Charha (Feb 28, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Charha said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are of course different views about this matter. I however represent the part who thinks that corporal punishment indeed is child abuse. I'm not pulling this out of my hat and it was not my intention to be deliberatively provocative. There are a number of articles I could refer to. I won't bore you with any details, but here's some easily accessible information for those interested. 

Sweden was the first country to ban corporal punishment by legislation and since the 80s the rest of the Scandinavia and parts of Europe have followed this example. I understand that "child abuse" is a harsh word. I don't want to blame anyone on this forum or anything, because I understand that every responsible parent tries to raise his or her children the way he or she believes to be right. I still hold my ground and I don't think you can blame me for doing so.


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## wut (Feb 28, 2007)

Yes parents should. Within reason.
[size=xx-small]Want a more detailed response? Tough. Make more detailed opening posts.[/size]


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2007)

wut said:
			
		

> Yes parents should. Within reason.
> [size=xx-small]Want a more detailed response? Tough. Make more detailed opening posts.[/size]



NO THESE RESPONSES SHOULD BE BLACK AND WHITE. I mean why even bother with seeing shades of grey right?


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## capthavoc123 (Feb 28, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> There are of course different views about this matter. I however represent the part who thinks that corporal punishment indeed is child abuse. I'm not pulling this out of my hat and it was not my intention to be deliberatively provocative. There are a number of articles I could refer to. I won't bore you with any details, but here's some easily accessible information for those interested.
> 
> Sweden was the first country to ban corporal punishment by legislation and since the 80s the rest of the Scandinavia and parts of Europe have followed this example. I understand that "child abuse" is a harsh word. I don't want to blame anyone on this forum or anything, because I understand that every responsible parent tries to raise his or her children the way he or she believes to be right. I still hold my ground and I don't think you can blame me for doing so.


Kudos on getting a completely unbiased source. Obviously there's no bias when the website is called www.stophitting.com.

And now you're arguing in favor of government regulation of parenting?

You know you've stopped simply stating your opinion and begun the process of trying to assign blame and force your beliefs when you begin to trot out websites that advocate government laws regulating parental behavior.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 28, 2007)

capthavoc123 said:
			
		

> You know you've stopped simply stating your opinion and begun the process of trying to assign blame and force your beliefs when you begin to trot out websites that advocate government laws regulating parental behavior.



That's what bothered me too. Yes, the Opening Poster made a polarized /loaded poll once again, but it's not about thinking on your own and need to blame him? I'm sorry, I do not think inside "his box". There isn't a black and white answer for this issue.

I remember someone mentioning the stove scenario.

It's a good example, kids are sometimes faster than we are, if you slap away the kid's hand before they touch the flame on the stove does it equal child abuse? Clearly the slap is going to sting a bit, but I suppose letting the kid get burned is better.


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## Charha (Feb 28, 2007)

I don't think that slapping a kid's hand to protect him or her from open fire is the same as spanking. That's a reflex, not a method. What I'm talking about (and have been talking about) is people hitting or slapping or otherwise humiliating their child as a punishment.

If you want other sources, you can look for articles by, for example, representatives of UNESCO, UNICEF, United Nations and Amnesty International. The previous website supported The Human Rights Imperative for Ending All Corporal Punishment of Children (launched in Geneva in April 2001.)

I think that the government should protect children from domestic violence by means of education and campaigns. I don't think that the government should take the children away from their parents, but I do think that spanking or whipping shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged.


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## quark (Feb 28, 2007)

Kittiara said:
			
		

> Well, Epsereth, thanks for trying but I've already read all the replies and seen that point of view is prevalent, and I still don't agree with it.  I'm not gonna argue with you guys about it because it's very obvious many children are physically punished (lightly), but I know I could never do it and it'll stay that way.




And that is perfectly okay. If you don't want to spank your kids, that is your choice.  There have been many people who don't spank (just like there are many who do spank) and have had really good kids.  What my problem is is people who are saying "Spanking is all wrong, it's abuse, and it should be illegal"  I'm not jiving with making an effective disciplinary action, that is often done out of love and concern, illegal.
As for whether or not I would spank my own kids, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.  Maybe my kids will be the kind of kids that react to that kind of discipline, or maybe I'll have kids who will only need a talking to now and again.  But I think it should be my choice as a parent to decide whether or not I spank my kids.


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## quark (Feb 28, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> I think that the government should protect children from domestic violence by means of education and campaigns. I don't think that the government should take the children away from their parents, but I do think that spanking or whipping shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged.



Can you please stop calling it domestic violence?  It is really starting to irritate me. You're implying that anyone who got spanked as a kid has child abusing scum for parents. My parents spanked me, and I really do not appreciate you implying that my parents are child abusers. They are anything but. They are kind, loving people who have only had my best interests at heart, and would never want to see me in serious harm.  I definitely do not consider myself to be from a domestically violent home.  
If my parents beat me every day, put bruises or scratches on my body, or just flew into a blind rage and started wailing on me, then sure, that's abuse. 
I'm not insulting your parents calling them hippie tree hugging wimps just because they didn't spank you, (in fact, I do support parents who don't spank) so I'd appreciate some mutual respect from you, that you stop calling any parents who spank their children abusive.
Thanks.


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## Charha (Feb 28, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> Can you please stop calling it domestic violence?



As I said earlier, there are many views about what corporal punishment is. I personally think that spanking equals abuse which again equals domestic violence. Of course being slapped once is not nearly as bad as being whipped every time you do something wrong. In my replies I've been mostly conserned about the most severe cases although I can't say I'm in favour of any forms of corporal punishment. If you feel that you haven't been mistreated in any way in your childhood, then I'm very happy for you. My criticism is never aimed against any spesific individuals, but the collective notions in general.

(And hey, you're free to call my parents hippies if you want. Though I think they're more like commies or something... ;3)


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## Litre (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm sorry, but a spanking is nothing compared to being smacked HARD, or you know...real abuse? Or do you not know the definition of abuse? Calling a spank abuse really touches a nerve with people who have actually gone through real abuse themselves.


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## Charha (Feb 28, 2007)

I think the main problem is that the terms used are relative. In my native language spanking would be translated to whipping a bare bottom (hard) with a belt, a long ruler or a birch branch. That's enough to leave a mark! And I must agree that it's quite different from patting a child on the bottom in a symbolic way, so to speak, that is not supposed to hurt at all.


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## Litre (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm pretty sure if even spanked with a ruler, that won't hurt as much as it would be if this thread continued.

Look up spanking in OUR definition before going on a huge crusade. All you have done is caused problems.

My point still remains prior this post.


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## Charha (Feb 28, 2007)

Litre said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure if even spanked with a ruler, that won't hurt as much as it would be if this thread continued.



At least that's something we can both agree on. I'm sorry if my use of language and interest in this topic have upset you. In my opinion the personal definition of spanking is just as relative as are the ways it is used as a correctional method.


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## InvaderPichu (Feb 28, 2007)

Charha said:
			
		

> You can't spank your wife and you certainly can't spank the people who work for you, but you can spank your kids.



Actually you can spank your wife, if she's into that. :twisted:

But seriously, there's a big different between hitting another adult...and hitting your own child. :B


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## Icarus (Feb 28, 2007)

how hard did they hit?


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## Disturbed (Mar 1, 2007)

You dont KNOW how many times I hear 8-13 year olds whine and complain that they didnt get to have the double chocolate chip cookies or the giant tub of ice cream they wanted. Crying and wailing at the top of their lungs makes me just walk over there and give'm a swift backhand.


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## Squishface (Mar 1, 2007)

Hahaha back when i was a kid my pops would say "Imma beat you like a Phillipino stepchild" and he did.... Mommie make him stop!!!


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## dong (Mar 1, 2007)

InvaderPichu said:
			
		

> But seriously, there's a big different between hitting another adult...and hitting your own child. :B



Correct! I doubt that people will initially appreciate the subtlety that this statement actually entails so I'll actually bother to unpack it somewhat:

To be all legalistic about it, by definition an adult is a moral _agent_, meaning that the concept of *informed consent* applies. This means that indeed, if your wife is into being spanked, you may spank her!

The whole point of this thread is that children aren't considered moral agents. They're considered moral _patients_, meaning that they have a smaller scope of rights to action and a larger scope of protections.

The problem arises when arguments made against the rights of parents to physically discipline their child stem from regarding children as agents, not patients, because this causes a double-standard: you'll note that children-rights activists who are only interested in banning physical punishment do not also advocate of removal of children's other protective rights. The end result is the advocation of legislation that can only be harmful on net.

Of course the big attention on physical discipline is mainly directed at preventing the abuse of children, meaning significant, willful and unecessary harm which results in some kind of irreversible damage. I could blab on for a long time about the latter point but for now I will merely say that given our laws are theoretically uniformly applied, it is a matter of balancing the risk of abusive cases (which will always remain present to some degree) and the risk of actually causing more trouble amoung our future adult population. I say this because I believe there is compelling evidence that the recent hullabaloo and subsequent restrictions of disciplinary rights is already clearly undermining the constructive nature of parent-children relationships.


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## MarieChan (Mar 1, 2007)

Hee hee, when I was growing up my brother and I were kinda naughty until our asses got slapped red. That's how you do it, amirite? Other than that Dad never bruised or caused bleeding, and afterwards I would cry and then forget about it but rest assured I did all I could to avoid spankings. And if you ask me I think I would rather take a slapping now instead of getting grounded from the internet.

So in all I guess I advocate regular spankings, but I've been preached at by someone who thinks that children are the greatest things on earth x:


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## Rostam The Grey (Mar 1, 2007)

I think you should be able to slap adults to if they are idiots!


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## dong (Mar 1, 2007)

I can see that one flying in the courts in defence to charges of battery: "He was being an idiot! He needed slappin'!" 

Marie: if by 'regular' you mean 'consistent' (in terms of rationale and application) then yes I think that's fine. Short of permanent physical harm, spanking and physical discipline has a general effect of zero on a child's development when considered in itself. It's the methodology and the kind of relationship that a primary carer holds with their child that matters most of all.


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## canadianbacon (Mar 12, 2007)

the punishment should fit the crime. there is a diffrence between takeing a cookie without asking and going for a joyride. a good talking to about the hows and whys for the first, and disiplinary hitting and a talking about the hows and whys for the second.

what people fail to realize is the power of knowledge. telling your child how it huts other people and how it hurts himself and his moral fiber and why it is wrong will go farther than screaming at him no to do it. but then again today parents dont have the time to care or the smarts to tell him the reasoning and to treat them as more than a "stupid kid" growing up in a house in wish the hows and whys were used i can say that i am better for it.

but, sometimes it doesnt sink in. in that case physical punishment should be used to enforce the lesson where as it reffers to the action the child was doing....it should also be slightly less deastic due to the fact some actions may seriously hurt the child. example your kid hits another with a stick at full force after repeated times telling him it's wrong. away from prying eyes that might misjudge your teaching methods take the same stick and say spank you child with it. or hit him like he hit the other kid only a tad softer.


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