# What's your thoughts on drugs?



## lupi900 (Jan 16, 2018)

Weed is legal in most parts of the state & shroom's is soon to fallow. This whole war on drugs seem's to be nothing but a joke at this point, most drug related crime would be down if drugs were decriminalised.


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## Arwing Ace (Jan 16, 2018)

In general, I don't recommend drugs.

But as far as weed goes, I have a pretty libertarian position on that. I would like to see it completely decriminalized. I think there's really no reason at all for it to be illegal, and increasingly that seems to be the majority opinion nowadays. People have seen for years how ineffective and irrational laws against weed are, and the enforcement of said laws has been a complete failure that has cost American taxpayers untold billions of dollars. When I was in high school, there was any number of people I could have bought the stuff from if I wanted it. All I had to do was ask around. Hell, I've even heard the stuff grows wild on the plains of Nebraska! How are you going to effectively fight that? If people want something bad enough, they'll get it. Did we not learn anything from Prohibition? And how many people do we have in prison in this country just because of non-violent possession? It's ridiculous and it's all been for nothing - just a pointless war on a plant that mellows you out for a while and makes you feel hungry. I think you could argue that regular heavy use will dumb you down after a while, but that's no reason for it to be illegal. Alcohol and tobacco will do much worse to you than that. Moderation is key anyway.

We're in the midst of a massive social change with regard to weed. Most people know that it's bullshit that weed is illegal, they know it has legitimate medical uses, and that it's not necessarily a gateway drug or as bad as we've been led to believe in the past. People are pretty well fed up with it all and bucking the system, and more states are just telling the feds to piss off and doing their own thing. In Canada, in July of this year, weed is going to be totally legal at the federal level for recreational use. And I don't think Canada is going to descend into apocalyptic anarchy because of it. If we totally legalized it, that would also be one less thing that the Mexican cartels could profit from, and I fully support being able to buy legal, American grown weed that doesn't have the blood of innocents on it.

I think enough is enough.


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## Rovindeer (Jan 16, 2018)

As far as weed goes, I totally think it should be legal. I don't really see any reasons as why it isn't already considering alcohol is and it is quite similar (has an effect on you after consumption, can cause addiction...) .
But for other drugs such as cocaine, heroin, and all those other stuff, I don't have enough knowledge/experience to make an opinion on it to be honest


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## aloveablebunny (Jan 16, 2018)

Hmmm. I have not done any drugs other than to smoke weed once, and eat a pot brownie once.

I have no real desire to do any other drugs. I see how they can totally destroy lives and families, and that's just not something I ever want to risk. Plus I like having extra money :x

At most I may try mushrooms once, and I think I'd be okay with smoking/ingesting weed again, but I'd need to be in a safe place as I had an anxiety attack when I had weed before.

In terms of legalization, I do think that weed being illegal is silly. It's a freaking plant. Alcohol and other drugs are far more dangerous and can leave much worse long-lasting effects with long-term use. Granted, I know a long-time pothead who has admitted to having some issues (memory, word pronunciation) that he thinks are from being a heavy daily user for 20+ years, but still.

However... regardless of whether any drug is legal or illegal, people will still find ways to get ahold of it.


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## Massan Otter (Jan 16, 2018)

I'm not sure how much to say about drug experiences on a PG-13 forum, but I've been around small hippy festivals, outdoor parties and places like that since the early 2000s and have a few old raver friends.  I get the distinct impression that in the UK, as laws have changed and some existing laws have been enforced more solidly, the newer alternatives that come on to the scene are almost always nastier and more variable than the stuff you couldn't get any more.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 16, 2018)

Biggest thing you could probably do to kill the drug trade (with its associated problems such as drug money being used to support other illegal activity) would be to move most resources away from drug stings and towards rehab. I believe it was in the Netherlands they set up a clinic where people with drug addictions could go, get their fix for free with clean needles on the premises, and were offered help to quit if they wanted it. That broke the cycle of "do degrading things to afford drugs, do drugs to numb myself to the degrading things I'm doing" and only a small portion of the people actually kept taking the drugs long-term. Local dealers were pretty much driven out of business.

Personally I don't feel I have enough data to say whether any given substance _should_ be illegal, though all intoxicants (including cigarettes and alcohol) should probably at least require ID. I am, however, personally very much of the opinion that "it's illegal" is a strong argument against _using_ drugs. Legality does influence those drugs' surroundings, and should be considered accordingly. (This is honestly as much an argument for decriminalization as it is an argument for staying away from drugs if they're illegal. Don't get wrapped up in a mess that you can't get out of via your dealer or whatever else.)

Honestly the biggest atrocity when it comes to drug legislation is how many substances have arbitrarily been declared to have no therapeutic value and thus to be off limits for research. That is something that needs to end; while it's understandable that research on controlled substances would probably get extra scrutiny from ethics committees, saying flat no to such research is irresponsible. IIRC it's LSD that's been showing some promising results in treating PTSD in the few studies that have been approved on it.



aloveablebunny said:


> I do think that weed being illegal is silly. It's a freaking plant.


Where it's derived from has nothing to do with anything, though. Opium is derived from poppies. Digitalis is a very potent, plant-derived medicine. Oleander seeds will freaking kill you, as will any number of other plants.


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## aloveablebunny (Jan 16, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Biggest thing you could probably do to kill the drug trade (with its associated problems such as drug money being used to support other illegal activity) would be to move most resources away from drug stings and towards rehab. I believe it was in the Netherlands they set up a clinic where people with drug addictions could go, get their fix for free with clean needles on the premises, and were offered help to quit if they wanted it. That broke the cycle of "do degrading things to afford drugs, do drugs to numb myself to the degrading things I'm doing" and only a small portion of the people actually kept taking the drugs long-term. Local dealers were pretty much driven out of business.
> 
> Personally I don't feel I have enough data to say whether any given substance _should_ be illegal, though all intoxicants (including cigarettes and alcohol) should probably at least require ID. I am, however, personally very much of the opinion that "it's illegal" is a strong argument against _using_ drugs. Legality does influence those drugs' surroundings, and should be considered accordingly. (This is honestly as much an argument for decriminalization as it is an argument for staying away from drugs if they're illegal. Don't get wrapped up in a mess that you can't get out of via your dealer or whatever else.)
> 
> ...



I respect your opinion, but I was strictly speaking about weed.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 16, 2018)

aloveablebunny said:


> I respect your opinion, but I was strictly speaking about weed.


I understand that. I'm just pointing out that the common arguments "it's natural" and "it's a plant" don't hold water; I believe the fallacy in question is called "appeal to nature". If you want to speak in favor of decriminalizing cannabis, there are many more compelling arguments.


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## aloveablebunny (Jan 16, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I understand that. I'm just pointing out that the common arguments "it's natural" and "it's a plant" don't hold water; I believe the fallacy in question is called "appeal to nature". If you want to speak in favor of decriminalizing cannabis, there are many more compelling arguments.


I wasn't really going for a compelling argument; merely stating an opinion. I'm not one to spend a lot of time debating back and forth.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 16, 2018)

I see no issue with the sticky icky being legal, it's not what you'd call a hard drug and has the least amount of psychedelic side-effects compared to its counterparts, but shrooms is another issue.


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## Filter (Jan 16, 2018)

I don't recommend them, and I don't do any myself, but I do think they should be legalized. Legalization and some form of regulation would help control the quality, take power away from the cartels, and potentially help the economy. Drug dealers could become legit drug salespeople, and there would be fewer non-violent people in prison. Those who might benefit from them would have easier access, and addicts might be more open their struggles (and therefore easier to help) if they didn't have to hide it from the law.


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## Pipistrele (Jan 16, 2018)

Eh, not worth it. I've seen some people who ruined their lives with krokodil (nightmare-inducing stuff, eek), and I've seen some people who ruined their lives with weed, so yeah, I'll pass. I also notice quite often that people with positive opinion towards weed decriminalization tend to overestimate their level of self-control - just because it's "not as addictive as tobacco" doesn't mean you won't get addicted, if not to the drug itself, then to sensation you get from using it (which is how it works with alcoholism, at least until real addiction kicks in).


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## Ciderfine (Jan 16, 2018)

The issue with consumables in the neurological factor is even if they can help someone with a health issue, I only personally advise that a physicians or Primary care doctor should coach and decide whats best for you in that health market. Weed and other things are emgerbding fast...almost to fast and I worry the hype train may lead people to abandon centuries of medical and scientific progress for it

I know its easy to slide into those weedcard dms in Vegas, or the west beast coast but there's consumerism...and then there's using it for real health issues then being a hipster at coachella.  I think we can use many narcotic substances to help people, wean them off total psychology based dependency but a little research on that but from a stance such as mine: If you do acid, heroin or PCP for fun or for you addiction that violates laws then your part of a problem.

I don't mind when people smoke weed, but when it comes to other hardcore drugs that alter the reality and mental sanity levels of peoples minds, I tend to call the cops. I'd rather not have violent, money hungry drug culture ruin things around which then tend to do.


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## Astus (Jan 16, 2018)

When it comes to these things I always come to a standstill of some point (when it comes to weed)... because in reality I *feel *that there is no really right answer....

On one hand, by decriminalizing it, you prevent major cartels from profiting and from there you get a nice chain effect where they start to lose power and wealth to a degree... of course I imagine they’ll find a way to make money anyways... on another hand it becomes easier for people who would most definitely benefit from it for medicinal purposes have the ability to get it easily as opposed to going through a whole system or possibly not being able to get it, and rather having to use worse drugs to have the same effect. Also of course the potential taxes gained from it would... if they tax it like cigarettes... would be pretty good for the state (if those politicians don’t pocket it of course). So there is a decent amount of good to come from it 


however, another part of me has a different view on it. I personally, being a bio major (just to give background), see all these drugs as... well not so good for ones health overall. The body can be resilient, however I’ve seen firsthand how these things can play out. On top of that... I mean like with anything that associates the reward center of the brain, people can get, especially those with genetic predispositions, addicted to using the substances and over time crave more and more. Not comparing the effects of weed to heroin, however with heroin small doses are pretty much harmless to whomever is using it. However since it works with the reward center, you start to get downgrading of neurons, and pretty soon you need more of the drug to get high, until you’re using many times more than you started with to get the same high and you die. This is why people, like my phisiology teacher, call weed a gateway drug, because it can have the same effect (as can pretty much anything mind you, like alcohol or nicotine). So the argument there is to remove those type of things from public use as to “help people help themselves” which of course if you think about it, is using people as a means to an end and is pretty much unethical

Another part of me gets really... i guess the easiest way to say it is, annoyed, at people who smoke weed. I find that most of them (in my experience mind you) are either really stupid, complain a lot about simple things, or are just plain lazy. That probably plays off the trope of the typical stoner and maybe why they act like that... But I just find that almost every single person I’ve met who smokes pretty regularly is just not smart or able to make good decisions. Obviously that’s a bias... but it makes me concerned about how people are going to be if it becomes legal to use in more places. I certainlly don’t want people driving around high, nor do I want people with bad decision making skills all around me as the prospect of that just makes me generally afraid; much like the idea of people drinking and driving makes me afraid to drive around moral holidays (times when people do stuff like drink and such). 

Weed has been shown in the long term to cause issues with the frontal lobe and memory last I did any research on it, with short term effects varying between people from an actual ability to concentrate (in people who have ADD and such) to others hallucinating and getting sick. Its also been shown to slow or stop brain growth in adolescents... So medically until I know more about it, and it’s been studied a LOT more, I’m unsure...


Overall however I find it would be best to legalize it for people who are at least 21, possibly even into 25 as thats when your prefrontal cortex stops growing and their brains are somewhat fully developed before introducing anything that could potentially stop their brains from developing... but overall it should be more accessible and potentially other ones less as acceptable... namely being cigarettes... and alcohol... but i know for a fact people won’t give up alcohol since it’s such a culturally important drink that makes people feel good.... so I accept that at least... maybe just make something that’s currently identified as ‘not so bad’ be legalized if we do already have ‘worse’ stuff out there.... yeah


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## pippi (Jan 16, 2018)

I think they're fun, as long as you don't hurt anyone on them or for them.  I personally like being out of my head.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 16, 2018)

Marijuana is fine. The only reason it's illegal is because they got bored after the prohibition and needed a new scapegoat to justify their existence.


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## Kuuro (Jan 16, 2018)

dude I smoke weed a loooot


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## Ramjet (Jan 16, 2018)




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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 16, 2018)

Any recreational drugs that alters the state of mind is a no-no for me. 

I don't want to work with a stoner


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Any recreational drugs that alters the state of mind is a no-no for me.
> 
> I don't want to work with a stoner



Many strains of marijuana induce a state of mind that's very similar to being tipsy. Yet no one has any qualms about alcohol.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Many strains of marijuana induce a state of mind that's very similar to being tipsy. Yet no one has any qualms about alcohol.



I find it very amusing when people automatically assume I'm fine with alcohol just because I don't support marijuana. :V


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## Yvvki (Jan 16, 2018)

Weed smells terrible and I'm not about to do that to my body.  :C
I might drink a little but ive never been drunk either so... idk.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I find it very amusing when people automatically assume I'm fine with alcohol just because I don't support marijuana. :V



I didn't reference you, but I did draw from a population consensus statement. However alcohol and marijuana are different substances, although neither are particularly damaging to one's health, especially not if used in moderation.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> although neither are particularly damaging to one's health, especially not if used in moderation.



I will be fair, drinking alcohol is bad for your health in contrast to Marijuana which is (as claimed) beneficial to your health

_but that is the problem!_

Marijuana gives me healthy idiots
while
Alcohol gives me dead idiots


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I will be fair, drinking alcohol is bad for your health in contrast to Marijuana which is (as claimed) beneficial to your health
> 
> _but that is the problem!_
> 
> ...



I'm still experimenting with both. Certain variations of both alcohol and marijuana can give me a headache, so I try different stuff. One of my favorite things to do is to just spike my creamer, sugar, and tea with brandy.


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## Saiko (Jan 17, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> Another part of me gets really... i guess the easiest way to say it is, annoyed, at people who smoke weed. I find that most of them (in my experience mind you) are either really stupid, complain a lot about simple things, or are just plain lazy. That probably plays off the trope of the typical stoner and maybe why they act like that... But I just find that almost every single person I’ve met who smokes pretty regularly is just not smart or able to make good decisions.


Just to counter anecdote with anecdote, my experience has been very different from this. Most of the weed-smokers I've known are highly intelligent and successful. You also wouldn't know they smoked unless you got to know them very well, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have several friends who fit this description without you realizing it. (In short, the smart smokers are smart about it.)



> with short term effects varying between people from an actual ability to concentrate (in people who have ADD and such) to others hallucinating and getting sick.


Bear in mind, the short term effect on concentration is literally one of the goals of smoking weed in the first place. Hallucinations, nausea, and paranoia are symptoms of an overdose (not lethal, just very unpleasant).


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 17, 2018)

Tough one this.  Back in my youth I experimented with ecstasy, shrooms, LSD, and cannabis.  Had some good times but also some bad experiences.  All in all I’d tell people to stay away, but in the end it’s up to them.  I do wish the strength of cannabis would return to what it was 30 years ago though.  Back then it gave a mild buzz.  These days people get fully stoned on it, dangerously so IMO.


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## Massan Otter (Jan 17, 2018)

backpawscratcher said:


> I do wish the strength of cannabis would return to what it was 30 years ago though.  Back then it gave a mild buzz.  These days people get fully stoned on it, dangerously so IMO.



Though going for satire, I think the Daily Mash described that very well with this piece.  (Plus, I dearly love the Mash for their angry badgers, pissed-off voles and gansta otters)

www.thedailymash.co.uk: Skunk smokers secretly want something weaker


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## Black Burn (Jan 17, 2018)

I haven't done any drugs, and I'll never do, for me only weed is ok (more than tobbaco)


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## backpawscratcher (Jan 17, 2018)

Black Burn said:


> I haven't done any drugs, and I'll never do, for me only weed is ok (more than tobbaco)


Please don’t do anything at all for a few years yet.  Your brain is still forming.  Let it finish doing that before you think of messing with it.  

You’re a bright kid anyway, so I know you get this.  Doesn’t hurt to say it though.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Jan 17, 2018)

Don't care for illicit drugs and narcotics. Don't care about weed either, but it'll likely become legal soon. When it does I'd only support it if it were heavily taxed and outlawed to grow it yourself alongside grounds for academic/career dismissal for wreaking of weed and/or smoking in public/academic/work settings


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## Simo (Jan 17, 2018)

*ponders a dystopic future in which psychotropic drug use is mandatory*

*Observes a word in which via pharmaceutical companies and advertising, this is close to the case*

~

But I have no trouble with weed being legal, as well as most hallucinogenics.

If anything, I think they have been too lenient, doling out things like SSRIs, SNRIs, and other things, of which the long term impact is indeed murky...


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## Massan Otter (Jan 17, 2018)

SSRIs are a funny one though, I've ended up on one and it's definitely helped for me.  But then since I started it, I've been doing a lot more self-care stuff that I couldn't get motivated to do before, so I'm thinking that if I can keep that up I might see about coming off it again after a year or so.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Jan 17, 2018)

Simo said:


> *ponders a dystopic future in which psychotropic drug use is mandatory*
> 
> *Observes a word in which via pharmaceutical companies and advertising, this is close to the case*
> 
> ...


SSRI/SNRI/NDRI/Etc. are just flat out weird. From my understanding we don't actually know _why _they work. They just _do_


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## Black Burn (Jan 17, 2018)

Simo said:


> *ponders a dystopic future in which psychotropic drug use is mandatory*
> 
> *Observes a word in which via pharmaceutical companies and advertising, this is close to the case*
> 
> ...





Massan Otter said:


> SSRIs are a funny one though, I've ended up on one and it's definitely helped for me.  But then since I started it, I've been doing a lot more self-care stuff that I couldn't get motivated to do before, so I'm thinking that if I can keep that up I might see about coming off it again after a year or so.





Sergei Sóhomo said:


> SSRI/SNRI/NDRI/Etc. are just flat out weird. From my understanding we don't actually know _why _they work. They just _do_


*Hides in anti-drug bunker* ok.....


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## lupi900 (Jan 17, 2018)

There a another thing i never got. You can walk into the chemist to get DXM/DPH meds, Aswell as Nutmeg from the supermarket. There just as potent as there illegal cousins yet nothing happen's if you take them at higher doses.


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## Astus (Jan 17, 2018)

Saiko said:


> Just to counter anecdote with anecdote, my experience has been very different from this. Most of the weed-smokers I've known are highly intelligent and successful. You also wouldn't know they smoked unless you got to know them very well, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have several friends who fit this description without you realizing it. (In short, the smart smokers are smart about it.)



Quite obviously why I said I was conflicted ;p


Edit: for the hell of it, I've quickly got some half decent info on short and long term effects of THC on the brain from Psychology Today which has hyperlinks to the studies done.

Short term : 7 Short-Term Effects of Marijuana on the Brain | Psychology Today

Long term : www.psychologytoday.com: Long Term Effects of Marijuana on the Brain


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## Simo (Jan 17, 2018)

Massan Otter said:


> SSRIs are a funny one though, I've ended up on one and it's definitely helped for me.  But then since I started it, I've been doing a lot more self-care stuff that I couldn't get motivated to do before, so I'm thinking that if I can keep that up I might see about coming off it again after a year or so.



Wide range of reactions on these, to be sure, among people...had some very bad ones, and never 'adjusted' to them, so I'm pretty scared of them, at least for me...had a very zombie-like, Stepford Wives feel...lack of any emotion except feeling empty, no sexual desire, funny electric zaps, a lot more increased thoughts of suicide, this fuzzy, unable to think/be creative aspect, neck tension got a lot worse, felt queasy...for some they work, it seems, others, they seem like a gamble, I'd say.

All in all, I think a puff of weed here and again, helps a lot more! And trying to keep busy. But that's me; it's odd, when you have classes of drugs that you have so many TV/media ads for; one also wonders about how much of a Placebo effect, this creates.

Maybe weed will one day be advertised, just like all those pills : P


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## Black Burn (Jan 17, 2018)

I have a very close friend (she is like sister to me) and weed helped her with depression, even her doctor illegaly recommended to smoke weed and it really helps her just to relax sometimes...


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## Massan Otter (Jan 17, 2018)

I think advertising in the UK is a lot more regulated.  TV and media advertising for prescription drugs aren't permitted over here, though I'm sure there are various forms of promotion aimed at medical professionals.  It's possible that I've been quite lucky with having only one or two SSRI side-effects that can be worked around, and the plan is for it not to be a long-term thing.  
I never got on so well with weed - I just end up feeling tired and a bit bored.  But psilocybin mushrooms (the cultivated varieties could legally be bought here until 2005) really seemed to do something positive for me even with occasional moderate use, and there have been some clinical trials that tentatively support this.  Obviously, self-medication is inherently a risky business though.


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## Simo (Jan 17, 2018)

Massan Otter said:


> I think advertising in the UK is a lot more regulated.  TV and media advertising for prescription drugs aren't permitted over here, though I'm sure there are various forms of promotion aimed at medical professionals.  It's possible that I've been quite lucky with having only one or two SSRI side-effects that can be worked around, and the plan is for it not to be a long-term thing.
> I never got on so well with weed - I just end up feeling tired and a bit bored.  But psilocybin mushrooms (the cultivated varieties could legally be bought here until 2005) really seemed to do something positive for me even with occasional moderate use, and there have been some clinical trials that tentatively support this.  Obviously, self-medication is inherently a risky business though.



Yeah, that is true...in ways, I've come to find _all_ medication to alter moods is a risky business! Outcomes vary so widely, one never knows quite what to expect. 

Ah, in the US, the have ads for SSRIs up the wazoo...there are no limits. I mean, they spend millions and millions of dollars, pushing these things, like McDonald's peddles burgers. And the ads would be comical, if they didn't have so many Orwellian overtones : )


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## borders4life (Jan 17, 2018)

Different types of weed will affect people in different ways. Some strands are good for calming people down, some help give them energy. My fiance, who is high functioning asbergers, smokes weed to keep calm when dealing with people and large crowds. Otherwise, he'd get very irritated and uneasy in those situations. 

As far as negative long term/short term affects, every drug out there has some, even basic over the counter drugs. Some are worse than others. So does that make synthetic mood stabilizers and pain meds better than naturally grown stuff? In my opinion, it doesn't. 

I've smoked it before and have had both good and bad experiences with it. It's not my cup of teas, but times where ivr been stressed and on the verge of a panic attack, I've smoked some, and it helped ease my thoughts.

It's just really one's own opinion on rather they want to smoke it or not. Even if it doesn't become legal, people will smoke it. How I look at it, the government will benefit if they made it legal since they'd tax the hell out of it like they do with cigarettes. And weed has got to better for you than tobacco, yet cigars and cigarettes are still readily available despite being proven to be very harmful to people.


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## Massan Otter (Jan 17, 2018)

Yep, I don't think I'd like to be advertised at like that. 
Thinking about it, I don't dabble in anything recreational nowadays save for a very small amount of alcohol.  I haven't actually racked up any regrets about the times that I did though, I just got to a point where it didn't seem so much like what I wanted to do.  I'd always avoided anything that I'd seen affect people around me in ways that didn't look positive, and steered clear of the ones that seemed like a bad idea all round, so never cocaine, ketamine, opiates or those nasty synthetic cannabinoids.


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## Black Burn (Jan 17, 2018)

but even caffeine can be bad if we're drinking to much drinks that contain caffeine we can die of a heart attack, or vein can break and cause internal bleeding (I heard that boss of my aunt ended his life in this way), and almost everything in to big dose can be bad, I'm not talking about those harder drugs beacuse Idk how they work, but as I heard in most cases weed isn't that bad if someone isn't smoking to much


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## Sgt. Kai (Jan 17, 2018)

I'm a crack addict.


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## PlusThirtyOne (Jan 18, 2018)

Something that's been somewhat of a sobering (pun intended) experience is that "high" is NOT a binary switch that one flips. "High" is an extremely broad term for what most would agree is incapacitating; the ability to function normally. i used to think that all drugs got you "high" in the same way by dulling the brain and making you just...stupid. That's not how drugs work! Hell, it's completely HOW the brain works! Every drug affects your brain similarly by introducing _natural_ neurochemicals in an _unnatural _way. Neurochemicals are produced and managed by your brain all the time. They're literally what make you tick. Adjusting the flow and management of certain neurochemicals can help to manage imbalances perceived as depression or pain. Taking drugs is moreorless like flipping and adjusting switches and filters in your brain. Some flip one at a time, others take time to see gradual change. Some drugs go apeshit, disabling filters and flipping switches till you pass out but most target specific switches, which is why people get comfy with them and fight to establish some sort of power over them. Switches that make you feel good/better. Switches that make you forget pain. Filters that help you make sense of the world.

-But that doesn't mean you have to take drugs by the bucket-load! if balancing neurochemicals is the goal, then there's no need to _flood_ the brain. There is reason to believe that micro-dosing can provide more positives, helping to balance imbalanced brains suffering from ADD, dementia, PTSD and so many others without affecting the person's ability to function. in short, ALL DRUGS have medical applications; some more than others. Using drugs intelligently is no different than popping the hood on your car or computer and tinkering with some settings. Chemists and doctors have already gone through the process of mapping the effects, so given the right product, the right people and the proper knowledge, taking a "trip" can be a very powerful thing indeed. Learn more about yourself, experience what life looks like unfiltered, grasp the broader concepts of your mind. Unfortunately drugs are ripe for abuse because they can often manage pain TOO WELL.

*if drugs are to be legalized, no matter how many or few, the medical system in the US needs a serious overhaul*. People get hooked on drugs because they don't have proper guidance. Either they stigma is too strong for them to seek help or the price of a simple doctor visit is just too damn expensive.


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 18, 2018)

First and foremost, I do smoke weed on occasion to help with my depression.  I can say that it helps better than any of the other otc things I’ve tried.  It should be legalized simple for the overall benefits that I can see.  There are times that it does help with health conditions, both mental and physical.  Legalize it and tax it, put the money back into fixing what’s broken instead of into big pharma’s pockets.  In the US when it is classified as a substance more dangerous than some opioid’s, then there is a problem.


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## Black Burn (Jan 18, 2018)

Mudman2001 said:


> First and foremost, I do smoke weed on occasion to help with my depression.  I can say that it helps better than any of the other otc things I’ve tried.  It should be legalized simple for the overall benefits that I can see.  There are times that it does help with health conditions, both mental and physical.  Legalize it and tax it, put the money back into fixing what’s broken instead of into big pharma’s pockets.  In the US when it is classified as a substance more dangerous than some opioid’s, then there is a problem.


I agree!!


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## Rant (Jan 18, 2018)

Jokes aside, I believe weed used for medical reasons only is more then acceptable! Right now we're watching people die all over from opioids and shit. Last month the police had their first Flakka case where the woman was naked and trying to get run over on the highway. (Flakka is fucked up, YouTube it) and the jails are overwhelmed with minor drug offenses.
 Lucky we haven't had a meth lab go up in flames this month.


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## Rant (Jan 18, 2018)

*GRAPHIC CONTENT EVEN THOUGH ITS BLURRED *​


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## Mudman2001 (Jan 18, 2018)

Rant said:


> Jokes aside, I believe weed used for medical reasons only is more then acceptable! Right now we're watching people die all over from opioids and shit. Last month the police had their first Flakka case where the woman was naked and trying to get run over on the highway. (Flakka is fucked up, YouTube it) and the jails are overwhelmed with minor drug offenses.
> Lucky we haven't had a meth lab go up in flames this month.


Agreed, my DV friend who is on 4+ different drugs for everything PTSD to TBI could get off all but one if the VA allowed for medical marijuana.  Two of those are opioid based painkillers and mood stabilizers that he will only take in a worst case scenario.

Oh, we know when everyone get there monthly checks based off of which way the wind blows because several people out here will start cooking.


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## Black Burn (Jan 18, 2018)

We need to legalize catnip!!


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## Kyr (Jan 18, 2018)

All drugs should be legal. Prohibition doesn't work because people will take them regardless and all it does is criminalize addiction. Instead of wasting money enforcing laws that only have a narrow minded moralistic basis the money should be spent on proper education on the positive and negative effects of drugs and rehabilitation programs. Dealers could become legitimate businessmen too and the government could make a little extra scratch taxing the shit.


Yes addiction would be a problem but it'll be a problem no matter what, personally i'd rather see people educated about drugs and granted easier access to rehab programs then being criminalized for getting fucked up in the way they enjoy.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 18, 2018)




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## Kyr (Jan 18, 2018)

Shit son, that squirrel needs to smoke a joint and chill.


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## Zhalo (Jan 18, 2018)

The only illegal drug I have ever done is weed, but in my area LSD is very prevalent (it is about 5$ for a tab of LSD vs about 8 for a cannabis edible) and I hear about people getting hurt while on LSD pretty frequently. I talked to one guy about 4 months ago who was at a house party and was on LSD and for whatever reason thought it was a good idea to jump face first into a bed of gravel at the foot of the patio. He busted his face up had to get stitches and lost a tooth. The other thing I usually here about is people having bad trips and those trips being traumatic and then that person is paranoid for like 3 months. 

Personally I hate the entire idea of hallucinogenics in general, the thought of hallucinating terrifies me because of an experience I had on a drug when I was younger. 

I can not understand the extreme viewpoint that all prohibition is bad and all drugs no matter how harmful to the user should be legal. The reality is the more easily something is to get the more people will use it, The more people using a drug the more addicts and deaths related to that drug there will be. It is easy to see if you look at alcohol related deaths and compare it to illegal drug deaths.

Cannabis on the other hand is arguably less dangerous than alcohol and something I think should be legal.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jan 18, 2018)

I don't care how people choose to destroy themselves in the comfort of their own home. Just keep it there and I'm cool with it.

As for myself, I don't do non-prescription drugs, but I find pot smokers to be obnoxious.

I don't know why it is, but in my experience pot smokers always seem to hate smoking by themselves and feel a need to be really pushy about getting the people around them to smoke with them.






and this is a pet peeve of mine, but stop calling it "Medicinal Marijuana."

If you don't have seizures; or need the nausea/vomiting suppressant or appetite boost because you're undergoing chemo or have HIV then you don't need THC. And no self respecting doctor would prescribe the THC in smoke inhalation form. You'd get a pill like any other drug.

You don't need it medicinally. You just want to get high. Call it like it is instead of this "wink wink nudge nudge" bullcrap.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 19, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> If you don't have seizures; or need the nausea/vomiting suppressant or appetite boost because you're undergoing chemo or have HIV then you don't need THC.


And why should your opinion on what medical uses of marijuana are acceptable be law (figuratively speaking)? I know people who have prescriptions for managing chronic pain _because nothing else has been effective_. I'm sure there are other uses as well. As long as there's a clinically significant improvement from taking the marijuana on board, and it's backed by a doctor, the use is absolutely medical. If there's a perceived improvement and a doctor wasn't involved, it's self-medicating (which may or may not have merit insofar as effectiveness - when I've had persistent anxiety spikes and not had access to my anxiety meds I've self-medicated with alcohol, and while I'll be the first to say it's not something I'd recommend because it's problematic in other ways, it does kill the anxiety for me, so in that way it's had the desired effect).


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## Massan Otter (Jan 19, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> As for myself, I don't do non-prescription drugs, but I find pot smokers to be obnoxious.
> 
> I don't know why it is, but in my experience pot smokers always seem to hate smoking by themselves and feel a need to be really pushy about getting the people around them to smoke with them.



These people do exist, I've met a few.  But like a lot of things, the ones you notice are almost always the ones doing it badly.  I've known people who smoke regularly and are quiet and discreet about it.  You could easily not know they were smokers unless you spent a lot of time with them or asked them directly.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 19, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> I don't care how people choose to destroy themselves in the comfort of their own home. Just keep it there and I'm cool with it.
> 
> As for myself, I don't do non-prescription drugs, but I find pot smokers to be obnoxious.
> 
> ...



It's also an excellent anti-depressant, and its effects are significantly less harmful than most prescription anti depressants. Further, marijuana has roughly similar effects in the brain that alcohol does, meaning, if I listed off all the neurotransmitters and neurological pathways that Tetrahydrocannabinol and alcohol stimulate, you'd be similarly confused either way, and they'd sound quite similar in their behavior, because to an extent they are.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jan 19, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> And why should your opinion on what medical uses of marijuana are acceptable be law (figuratively speaking)? I know people who have prescriptions for managing chronic pain _because nothing else has been effective_. I'm sure there are other uses as well. As long as there's a clinically significant improvement from taking the marijuana on board, and it's backed by a doctor, the use is absolutely medical. If there's a perceived improvement and a doctor wasn't involved, it's self-medicating (which may or may not have merit insofar as effectiveness - when I've had persistent anxiety spikes and not had access to my anxiety meds I've self-medicated with alcohol, and while I'll be the first to say it's not something I'd recommend because it's problematic in other ways, it does kill the anxiety for me, so in that way it's had the desired effect).



Never said it should be law. I don't care if people want to get high. But I do think that 98% of all pot smokers with a "medical marijuana" card are full of shit and just want to get high and not because of any great medical need. Just call it for what it is, wanting to smoke pot for recreational use. I don't call drinking booze when I'm feeling bored or sad my "medical alcohol" either. Its just me drinking recreationally.



Massan Otter said:


> These people do exist, I've met a few.  But like a lot of things, the ones you notice are almost always the ones doing it badly.  I've known people who smoke regularly and are quiet and discreet about it.  You could easily not know they were smokers unless you spent a lot of time with them or asked them directly.



Growing and selling pot put my best friend through college. So I've had no shortage of smokers to be around. In my experience, and I know this is entirely anecdotal, but of the many many MANY pot users I've hung out with, the overwhelming majority are very pushy about wanting me to smoke with them when they discover that I do not in fact smoke weed. As such I have a low opinion of pot smoker's behavior.



BahgDaddy said:


> It's also an excellent anti-depressant, and its effects are significantly less harmful than most prescription anti depressants. Further, marijuana has roughly similar effects in the brain that alcohol does, meaning, if I listed off all the neurotransmitters and neurological pathways that Tetrahydrocannabinol and alcohol stimulate, you'd be similarly confused either way, and they'd sound quite similar in their behavior, because to an extent they are.



You know what also works as an antidepressant without the horrible side effects? Sunlight and exercise. The problem with using pot as an anti-depressant is that you cannot control the dosage you are getting when you smoke it. Too low a dose and it does nothing for serotonin levels in the brain. Too much and you end up with unwanted side effects: Dependency, lowered intelligence in adolescents, lung cancer, amotivation (which is doubly bad since if its life circumstances causing the depression to begin with then it won't get resolved since your feelings of depression may be gone but you're still unmotivated to actually fix your life and thus slip right back into your original depression over time.) All medicine can be poison in the wrong amount. That pot is not given in controlled manner makes it extremely suspect.

Far as I'm concerned, pot smoking and alcohol usage are both self-destructive band aids for depression. They don't actually provide long term solution to it and do more harm than good. Further, because pot is all self-medicated in dosage and potency people are more than likely to abuse it. Give a kid a bowl of candy and of course he's going to over eat from it and end up sick. Pot industry loves to push its medical effects but its so understudied right now it may as well be snake oil for all the good everyone likes to tout about its cure-all benefits to feel better about their drug-use habit.





To reiterate to everyone. *I do not care if you want to smoke pot. I am not against the legalization of pot.* You all want to get high? *Go right ahead. It's your body. *Just keep it out of public spaces please because it smells like ass. I just, as a healthcare provider, find the term "medical marijuana" to rankle because it has not been thoroughly studied, and it is largely unregulated in dosage and potency.


*TLDR:*


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 19, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> Never said it should be law. I don't care if people want to get high. But I do think that 98% of all pot smokers with a "medical marijuana" card are full of shit and just want to get high and not because of any great medical need. Just call it for what it is, wanting to smoke pot for recreational use. I don't call drinking booze when I'm feeling bored or sad my "medical alcohol" either. Its just me drinking recreationally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ooh, yeah, lets post memes from Christians for Michelle Bachman, it'll make us seem SO intelligent! Lol,  good grief. 

Your anecdotes are fallacies for a reason. They're only your experience. I live in a state where recreational marijuana is legal, i.e. I can walk into a store any time I want and buy marijuana products. I can buy actual joints, or roll my own, or buy pot brownies or gummies or any other product I wish. 

And in fact you're flat wrong, I can control exactly how much THC I consume. If I smoke, I can calculate roughly how much THC is in the joint and measure that depreciation of the joint per "toke" (inhalation). If I want to get really precise, I can consume oils to within a very reliable 1 mg of THC. Taking edible takes my control even further, to about 0.01 mg THC. 

In other words, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jan 19, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Ooh, yeah, lets post memes from Christians for Michelle Bachman, it'll make us seem SO intelligent! Lol,  good grief.
> 
> Your anecdotes are fallacies for a reason. They're only your experience. I live in a state where recreational marijuana is legal, i.e. I can walk into a store any time I want and buy marijuana products. I can buy actual joints, or roll my own, or buy pot brownies or gummies or any other product I wish.
> 
> ...



Its called being facetious. Jesus Christ lol. Grow a sense of humor dude.

And I too live in state where pot is legal. You're trying to argue from authority here as a pot connoisseur and its not convincing to me in the slightest.

And my opinion is just that. My opinion. My experiences are my experiences. I don't expect to convince any of you which is why I said its purely anecdotal, nor do I care what you think of my opinion. I am simply voicing my thoughts on pot usage.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 19, 2018)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> Its called being facetious. Jesus Christ lol. Grow a sense of humor dude.
> 
> And I too live in state where pot is legal. You're trying to argue from authority here as a pot connoisseur and its not convincing to me in the slightest.
> 
> And my opinion is just that. My opinion. My experiences are my experiences. I don't expect to convince any of you which is why I said its purely anecdotal, nor do I care what you think of my opinion. I am simply voicing my thoughts on pot usage.



I'm not a pot connoisseur, I've really only taken maybe a dozen doses of the stuff, but I still obviously know more about it than you do. And, you're right, you'll never convince anyone of anything with arguments and an attitude like that. 

Cheers!


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## HuskyLover101 (Jan 20, 2018)

It's a choice. I'm neither for, or against them. I've chosen to remain abstinent from any drug use outside of prescribed medication. If people wanna destroy their body with shit like heroin and meth, let 'em, no use trying to stop them because they'll do it regardless. The "War on Drugs" is the biggest waste of several billion (yes, with a B!) dollars ever in the history of mankind, and the situation has only gotten worse. Remember Prohibition? Yeah, that TOTALLY stopped people from consuming alcohol!


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## Wolfstin (Jan 21, 2018)

If you do hardcore drugs then you are weak as you are stupid.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 21, 2018)

HuskyLover101 said:


> If people wanna destroy their body with shit like heroin and meth, let 'em, no use trying to stop them because they'll do it regardless.


The problem is, and I say this as someone who (unfortunately) had a housemate on amphetamine, that in too many cases addicts don't just destroy their own body. This is especially true for "hard" drugs.

I've lost random smallish items. Landlord is out the equivalent of thousands of dollars, because he had to get the entire upper floor of the house renovated, and that's with one room still remaining to be done. Like, there was literally blood spatter on the walls from people's IV drug use, and he'd left used syringes all over the place. 

None of the warrants served here while he lived here were for drugs, much as I might wish they had been for the simple pragmatic reason that at least then they might have gotten some charges to stick to the guy. Getting him formally evicted has taken over a year at this point and the process is STILL not done.


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## lupi900 (Jan 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I'm not a pot connoisseur, I've really only taken maybe a dozen doses of the stuff, but I still obviously know more about it than you do. And, you're right, you'll never convince anyone of anything with arguments and an attitude like that.
> 
> Cheers!



He's furry yet has no issue painting potheads under same brush with stereotypes. While using i was just joking as a cop out when called out, Just because he lives in legal pot area dosen't change the fact he has no clue on what he blabbing about.


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## Jarren (Jan 21, 2018)

Honestly, it's almost like we learned nothing from prohibition. Same shit, different time.


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## OakenheelTheWolf (Jan 21, 2018)

Honestly, if people want to destroy their lives and very possibly die with meth and cocaine and shit, I don't really care. As long as it doesn't effect me or someone I love. I stay in the area of prescribed drugs that will actually help keep me alive.


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## Deleted member 106754 (Jan 21, 2018)

As far as Marijuana goes I honestly think(In some cases at the very least) ist's no worse than alcohol.

It is a bit like a double standard with what is allowed and what isn't, and just because alcohol became wildly adopted and "accepted" early on and remained this way as our societies grew it still remains just that, while Marijuana is not and is made up to be so much worse in many places and spaces.
Giving it all a deep thinker I cannot say I'm for legalizing all drugs out there for various reasons as it's not that simple, but if something like alcohol can be sold so easily and widely along with tobacco, both of which can ruin lives in their own ways then give people their weed and at the very least take some out of the illegal trade.

We make use of no smoking and drinking bans in various places so it wouldn't exactly be the end of the world if Marijuana all of a sudden became legal everywhere and you could end up seeing people smoking it "more" publicly.
I'm sure most have seen both piss drunk people but also people stoned af, and how it it that much different?(Not judging specific effects of the drugs).
Make use of laws and policies we already enforce and I believe it wouldn't need to be as problematic as we make it out to be. No drug should be taken lightly with its effect it has on us, Marijuana is a part of that too.
I'm not trying to open pandoras box here but if you use rhyme and reason(on a political level) it's probably less about the actual effects weed has on us and the society whether you are pro or anti, and more about the alcohol and tobacco industry not wanting to adapt and/or lose out on trade revenue.
Your average suit doesn't care about you if they're paid thousands of dollars to say otherwise and this goes for *MANY *subjects outside of drugs.

I'm not going to prod about in medical Marijuana as I'm not educated enough to talk about it, but if it was legal with weed and a doctor believed it would help a patient, at least the fucking taboo wouldn't be there and it would be the end of discussion.

I get the "drugs are bad mkay", maybe(?) some people really dislike stoners, that weed smells like ass and how younger children shouldn't be around it which is all fair game.
But then again, growing up in a household with plenty of alcohol isn't much better, regular cigarettes arguably smells shit too and most pointers and arguments ends up pretty dull when you look on the bigger scale of what we *currently *allow.

This is why I personally think it's probably for the best to just legalize the stuff and spend effort on time on controlling other more dangerous drugs, and instead continue to educate people of the risks early on of any kind of drug use.
Being very reasonable here.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 21, 2018)

Seems to me that prescription drugs are more of a problem now than any of the illegal drugs. I wonder if doctors get a bonus for prescribing all these medications? Wouldn't surprise me at all if they did. It used to be that doctors "practiced" medicine. Now they just write a script.


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## SinFrame (Jan 21, 2018)

I don't see drugs themselves as a problem. The war on drugs however, is destroying lives and communities. I believe there should be safe spaces for addicts to use their drug of choice without fear of OD. If they choose to seek help for their problem, then great. If not, they can do with their life as they please. They are mentally ill addicts, not horrible criminals. The war on drugs is a tactic designed to keep classes in line. Cocaine and crack are p much chemically identical, yet the charge for crack is significantly more severe. Why? Because cocaine is seen as a rich mans drug while crack is more widely available to the lower class and minorities (Like how everyone knows marijuana no big deal yet its considered "schedule 1" and getting charged for it in a state where it's illegal can ruin your life). Which means more felonies are given to that group of individuals which prohibits them from voting. Prohibits them from trying to correct an unjust system that's been festering since Reagan.


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## BahgDaddy (Jan 21, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Seems to me that prescription drugs are more of a problem now than any of the illegal drugs. I wonder if doctors get a bonus for prescribing all these medications? Wouldn't surprise me at all if they did. It used to be that doctors "practiced" medicine. Now they just write a script.



Yeah, doctors just keep prescribing opioid painkillers and now we have an epidemic. They'll ramble on and one about how terrible the problem is, but they'll never do anything about it.


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## AustinB (Jan 21, 2018)

Marijuana and Psychedelics are fine IMO. Everything that can destroy your health, ruin relationships, and completely screw up your life (Heroin, Xanax, Cocaine, Krokodil, Crack etc.) should remain illegal. I would put Alcohol on that list, but there are people who can responsibly drink and have perfectly normal lives. Cigarettes are bad as well, but they don’t really screw up your life (unless you’re broke) and they don’t really affect others around you. They can wreck your health, though. I’d advise people to just stay away from anything that could negatively affect yourself or others you love.


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## DarkoKavinsky (Jan 21, 2018)

I'm the guy who drinks hard liqour occasionally. Smokes a cigar once in a blue moon and enjoyed a hookah.

I however, personally, care little for drugs or marijuana. Or as I call it American's version of the USSR Vodka and British ruled China's Opium. 

I have many friends who "BURN ONE DUDDDDE" and other crap and I personally think it is idiotic. But that's not my decision. The main reason why drugs are illegal is because of money.

There's been evidence and from what I've seen, heard and seen from the street corner that our own government deals in drugs. The best MDMA tablets in my region had DEA stamped right on them and you frequently heard about a few competition people being knocked out their products taken no arrests yet the packaging and everything ends up in another set of hands.

Another aspect is the prison system which is for profit in this nation.

And is one of the alarming things in this nation is the incarceration rate.

If you want to go shoot up black tar heroin, Smoke a 8ball, light up refer, make skrillex lines, toke on a broken light bulb, or take Malice Alice. Go ahead be my guest.

I'll be there waiting you to convince me that you introducing an imbalance the chemicals in your skull is a good idea.

Anything is addictive. If it can give you pleasure you can be addicted to it. Theres people who are addicted to eating sand for fuck's sake.

I personally dislike drugs, but every druggie seems to dislike alcohol. So hey?

Maybe it owuld be best to legalize many of these things to have the money not to go drug cartels or gangs, and instead into the biggest gangs we have the governments.

It would also allow for better treatment of rehab and etc. 

However I personally think the best approach is too just not do it, and for the love of gods the drug education programs seem to tell kids more about what drugs to ask their dealers than a deterrent.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 21, 2018)

AustinB said:


> Cigarettes are bad as well, but they don’t really screw up your life (unless you’re broke) and they don’t really affect others around you.


Depends on what you mean by "others around you" - anyone that smokes (whether cigarettes or weed or something else) should IMO have the courtesy to make their smoke easy to avoid. Smokers clumping up in one or two groups along a train platform, for instance, great, I can just not stand by them. Smokers spreading out so they're evenly dotted along the platform? Are kind of being assholes. I don't need to be inhaling their smoke and irritating my airways. Same for smokers that crowd RIGHT outside doors that lots of people need to pass through.

I'm all for stuff that has proven long-term health effects being costing extra in proportion to the extra costs incurred by those health effects that can be expected. (Ie higher extra tax on cigarettes if you have social health care, higher private health insurance premiums for smokers, etc.)


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## Zehlua (Jan 25, 2018)

I find hallucinogens fascinating, but I would never actually take anything without extensive research on its effects, both short-term AND long-term.

I enjoy reading about people's trips on LSD, DMT, MDMA, and toad venom. A lot of "psychonauts" are genuine idiots who believe they're seeing other worlds when, in reality, they've been poisoned and/or have overstimulated optical nerves.

Reading about the dumb things people have done on pot and alcohol is ALWAYS entertaining. I'm a huge fan of Texts from Last night, and I keep a collection of my favourites. I love the story about the person who ate an entire carton of ice cream looking for cookie dough bites, only to discover the ice cream was regular vanilla.

Maybe some day I'll have some weed brownies, but only a small dose. I refuse to smoke anything and damage my lungs.


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## Diretooth (Jan 25, 2018)

There are some drugs where the drawbacks are greater than the benefits, some that the benefits are greater than the drawbacks, and most that can be good if done in moderation. Where I live, marijuana is legal for medicinal and recreational use, and just like alcohol or cigarettes, it can be abused to an unhealthy degree, but also with the former two, done in moderation, the health risks are much more minimal than if they were abused. Though I won't smoke tobacco because it's not worth getting addicted to nicotine.
The key for me is: Everything in moderation. I don't get drunk, and I don't imbibe enough cannabis to render me incapable of acting in a positive fashion. Whether for recreational use, or for more spiritual uses, I always limit myself.

And to add on with an edit, if you do try something new, make certain you are in a safe environment with people you can trust, start small, see how you react, and make sure that the people you trust won't slip you more than you can handle for petty reasons such as you 'needing to lighten up' or you 'needing to relax more'. And if you start to show signs of dependence, such as craving it or wanting to use it more and more in lieu of other stress relieving activities, then stop using it before a full blown addiction occurs. If need be, seek professional help in the event you need rehabilitation.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Jul 15, 2020)

I don't know... we got tobaccos rolling all around the country, you can visit any store on the streets or even airports to buy them...

I don't know what's wrong with weeds at this point...


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 15, 2020)

Well, on the topic of drugs, it really comes down to how you use them. Drugs on their own have no harmful intentions, and those who seem to abuse them are really the ones who only get hurt. Sure, we have second-hand smoke effects, but this can possibly be avoided. People sometimes need drugs, (like the medical ones), to actually help, and it can have properties to relieve and aid. Those who tend to abuse the natural effects of certain drugs are those who always end up as crackheads, dealers, etc. Some drugs, like weed, aren't harmful on their own, but misuse could really damage how things work for people. So, in conclusion, drugs on their own, only certain ones, aren't harmful, but it's the people, sometimes, who make it dangerous.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 15, 2020)

Ruki-the-Zorua said:


> Well, on the topic of drugs, it really comes down to how you use them. Drugs on their own have no harmful intentions, and those who seem to abuse them are really the ones who only get hurt. Sure, we have second-hand smoke effects, but this can possibly be avoided. People sometimes need drugs, (like the medical ones), to actually help, and it can have properties to relieve and aid. Those who tend to abuse the natural effects of certain drugs are those who always end up as crackheads, dealers, etc. Some drugs, like weed, aren't harmful on their own, but misuse could really damage how things work for people. So, in conclusion, drugs on their own, only certain ones, aren't harmful, but it's the people, sometimes, who make it dangerous.




It doesn't affect anyone until that one guy on bathsalts tries to eat your face off. :[


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 15, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> It doesn't affect anyone until that one guy on bathsalts tries to eat your face off. :[



Well....yep, true.


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## Gemi42 (Jul 15, 2020)

Wow, this is an old thread!

I don't mind if other's smoke or do whatever, 'live and let live' as they say. I will say that for myself personally, I adamantly refused to take any sort of drugs.
Even when it comes to medical pain meds, I only take them when I really need them or when I am supposed to take them according to a schedule.

I'm personally terrified/paranoid about taking any sort of mind-altering substance. I don't know why it's just a phobia I have.


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## Xitheon (Jul 15, 2020)

I take a prescribed cocktail of antidepressants and sedatives to control my schizophrenic symptoms. Honestly have no interest in "getting high." 
I just wish I could get through the day without going crazy with anxiety.

I know some illicit drugs can make the user stop caring about anything, but then again the effects can vary a lot and cannabis is known to cause paranoia. That's the last thing I need.

I don't mind if other people choose to use drugs, although I hate standing close to smokers.


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

Weed is legal where I live so that's never been a problem for pretty much anyone I know, including me (though I prefer edible "catnip" snacks for lung-health reasons <grin>). 

Back in college I've had a few psychedelics (mushrooms, mdma) and no lie, it was a great time, but I *don't *recommend it. Very intense and not everyone can handle the responsibility of it and the opening if your mind it provides. Frankly, your own self will be revealed to you with no filters and very limited ability to self-regulate and control. You'll realize things about yourself that you might not be expecting even if you're a generally well-balanced happy person, and not everyone is ready for that! Personally I was *more *than ready at that stage of my life, but I can see easily where damage can be done to someone unprepared. It's not just a "fun roller coaster", it's spiritual and personal self-discovery...and has to be respected.  

Also once was slipped LSD against my knowledge, a slightly wilder trip that went well despite the unexpected nature of it. <_extends claws_> Not cool ever...anyone who ever does that to someone, they can go lick a horse's arse until it kicks them right in their idiotic heads while they rot. <_snarl_> So yeah, drugs are maybe not a death sentence, but some are not casual either...though weed is basically a beer unless you let it take over your life. But then some people get obsessed with coffee too...no difference.


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## Xitheon (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Weed is legal where I live so that's never been a problem for pretty much anyone I know, including me (though I prefer edible "catnip" snacks for lung-health reasons <grin>).
> 
> Back in college I've had a few psychedelics (mushrooms, mdma) and no lie, it was a great time, but I *don't *recommend it. Very intense and not everyone can handle the responsibility of it and the opening if your mind it provides. Frankly, your own self will be revealed to you with no filters and very limited ability to self-regulate and control. You'll realize things about yourself that you might not be expecting even if you're a generally well-balanced happy person, and not everyone is ready for that! Personally I was *more *than ready at that stage of my life, but I can see easily where damage can be done to someone unprepared. It's not just a "fun roller coaster", it's spiritual and personal self-discovery...and has to be respected.
> 
> Also once was slipped LSD against my knowledge, a slightly wilder trip that went well despite the unexpected nature of it. <_extends claws_> Not cool ever...anyone who ever does that to someone, they can go lick a horse's arse until it kicks them right in their idiotic heads while they rot. <_snarl_> So yeah, drugs are maybe not a death sentence, but some are not casual either...though weed is basically a beer unless you let it take over your life. But then some people get obsessed with coffee too...no difference.



Coffee has taken over my life.

Maybe I'm a junkie after all.


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 15, 2020)

Xitheon said:


> Coffee has taken over my life.
> 
> Maybe I'm a junkie after all.



We're all suckers for something eventually.


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## MainHammond (Jul 15, 2020)

I can smoke some weed once in a while. But I hate cigars.
When I was 18 I was more into alcohol and smoking, but I realized they have a mayor problem for me, they are too expensive.

So I decided to stop smoking and I drink beer on special occasions. Addictions just don't fit with my lifestyle of collecting video games and art books.

And Coffee..... it reminds me of college so I can drink a cup but not more than that.

Energy Drinks, nope. Never .


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## Punji (Jul 15, 2020)

Unpopular opinion time!

All recreational drugs are bad. This includes nicotine, tobacco, alcohol, and yes, marijuana.

Everything this side of caffeine should be entirely prohibited, and even then caffeine should be regulated so corporations stop shoving it into products where it doesn't belong in the hopes that it will get consumers addicted. It serves a legitimate purpose, though I frown upon its use regardless. Too many people are addicted to caffeine for no reason. If someone really needs it, caffeine pills don't pretend to be something they're not.

Before anyone says it, no, I do not support usage for any purposes such as a means to calm down, control anxiety, control pain, or for any "medical" reasons. The THC-free stuff exists for that, I think? There is a multitude of other medical drugs out there which don't alter the state of mind and don't exist to be recreational. If a problem is so bad one needs drugs to treat it, take _real_ drugs not recreational ones.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Jul 15, 2020)

I used to smoke. Quitting was hard but not impossible for me. I've been tobacco free for over 3 years now. Don't ever pick up the habit if you haven't already. Nicotine is a hell of a chemical.


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Holy necro, Batman.

Still, I'll just say I don't care much about marijuana usage. I just wish people would stop jamming it down other people's throats that they're a weed smoker. I...don't care, mate.

As far as other drugs go...yes, they shouldn't be used. A bad batch of anything can kill you. An addiction is something not worth having in exchange for 10 minutes of feeling high. Plus, people tend to do really stupid things when high, often life-threatening.

Alcohol should be used responsibly and in moderation. I don't see the point of destroying my own liver cos it dulls my pain or makes my weekend more enjoyable. Being sick in the back of a taxi doesn't sound like fun to me.

As for tobacco...I want to give up smoking and I am trying, at the moment. I recommend everyone does the same, but can't really force you to.


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

Punji said:


> Unpopular opinion time!
> 
> All recreational drugs are bad. This includes nicotine, tobacco, alcohol, and yes, marijuana.
> 
> ...



It's funny...most people would probably counter with tales of safety and other comparisons or to dilute the argument by comparing to what's actually allowed and harmful or to pretend that it's really medicine or whatever...

...but I won't. I respect your opinion enough not to insult your intelligence. And as you know, *anything *can be abused, even weed or caffeine, right? So factoring all that, all I'll ask is just one simple thing...can you explain *why* being high is a bad thing, within the realm of reason (not constantly, not obsessively). 

Just in general...your premise is "drugs are bad". Cool...if you can do them responsibly and with minimal health effects, then what is the actual reason *why* being high is bad in general? Even totally "sober", we go to dances to get high (energy, music, woohoo attitude)...we go on vacation to get high (tranquility, peace, fun and joy)...we have sex to get high (too obvious)...so what is the issue with being high? <smile> Why is "happy" and "uninhibited" a bad state to be in...again assuming that you can manage the health aspects? Remember...your counterargument cannot include negative health as a reason, just like I cannot factor positive health as a reason *to *do them. It's only fair after all...I'm debating the nature of being high not the toxins.


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Just in general...your premise is "drugs are bad". Cool...if you can do them responsibly and with minimal health effects, then what is the actual reason *why* being high is bad in general? Even totally "sober", we go to dances to get high (energy, music, woohoo attitude)...we go on vacation to get high (tranquility, peace, fun and joy)...we have sex to get high (too obvious)...so what is the issue with being high? <smile> Why is "happy" and "uninhibited" a bad state to be in...again assuming that you can manage the health aspects? Remember...your counterargument cannot include negative health as a reason, just like I cannot factor positive health as a reason *to *do them. It's only fair after all...I'm debating the nature of being high not the toxins.


What I believe to be the 3 reasons why people take drugs are thus-
- Escapism
- Fun
- Peer pressure or to feel like part of a community

Personally, if you need drugs to give you all of or one of those things...what are you doing with your life? Surely there's better ways to have fun? Better ways to become part of a community? Sounds harsh, but it's sort of true.

And you pretty much listed 3 other ways to 'get high' rather than using drugs. And in those states, you aren't necessarily inhibited. You're still conscious of what's going on around you and you don't think the guy in front of you is a giant rubber duck with 9 eyes and five legs.

I'd much rather feel happy from spending time with friends or sleeping with my lover. Then it's 'real happiness'. It may seem like they make you feel happy, but all they really do is make you numb to reality. When the reality comes back, it can feel a lot worse than it did before you did the shrooms.


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> What I believe to be the 3 reasons why people take drugs are thus-
> - Escapism
> - Fun
> - Peer pressure or to feel like part of a community



Exactly, that's my point! Now why do people go to Furry cons?
- Escapism
- Fun
- Peer pressure or to feel like part of a community

Why do people go to raves? Same reason. Why do people go to the movies with friends? Same reason. So I submit that there is no difference in reasons between your fun things and drugs.



KD142000 said:


> Personally, if you need drugs to give you all of or one of those things...what are you doing with your life? Surely there's better ways to have fun? Better ways to become part of a community? Sounds harsh, but it's sort of true..



I agree completely...if you *need* those things then you have a problem. That's the negative health aspects. Now I re-ask...what if you simply *want* these things? Just like some people would want the fun sensation of a furry con. <smile>



KD142000 said:


> I'd much rather feel happy from spending time with friends or sleeping with my lover. Then it's 'real happiness'. It may seem like they make you feel happy, but all they really do is make you numb to reality. When the reality comes back, it can feel a lot worse than it did before you did the shrooms.



Now in that I disagree...as many drugs *enhance *reality, or offer a slightly different perspective...a vacation from it so to speak. Again I agree completely, I would love to spend time with a lover or friends. Now why is it a bad thing to _occasionally _get high with a lover and friends to enhance things...not because you *need *to, but for the temporary adventure and fun (again, health aspects managed)? That is my main counter-question. <giggle>


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Exactly, that's my point! Now why do people go to Furry cons?
> - Escapism
> - Fun
> - Peer pressure or to feel like part of a community
> ...


That's my argument. Why not go to to a rave or go see a movie? Why do you want to lick a freakin' toad instead of watching the latest blockbuster?

I disagree that drugs enhance reality. They cloud your judgement. There's a good reason as to why they're illegal. In fact, lots of good reasons.

Why not go to a convention? Why do you need chemicals to feel happy? Haven't you got anything going on in your life?

OK, here's the thing...drugs mess with your mind. And no offence, I don't think messing with your own mind is a good idea. I've heard horror stories relating to drugs and I'm not about to say it's a good thing. Just isn't.

Even now, you sound as if you're high on ketamine. Using deluded arguments like it 'enhances reality'. That worries me.

If you fall through a window whilst high, you fall through a window. You may not realise it at the time, but you did indeed fall through a window.

And, a 'different perspective' is not the same as a chemical making your brain think it's seeing a huge elephant dancing on top of a centipede whilst licking a disco ball. It's not actually there and isn't part of reality. So it's not a perspective, just an illusion.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Jul 15, 2020)

I guessing who ever is necro posting is addicted to that and necromancy......


KD142000 said:


> That's my argument. Why not go to to a rave or go see a movie? Why do you want to lick a freakin' toad instead of watching the latest blockbuster?
> 
> I disagree that drugs enhance reality. They cloud your judgement. There's a good reason as to why they're illegal. In fact, lots of good reasons.
> 
> ...


Actually Marijuana can actually sometimes cause Schizophrenia in individuals who are related to patients who have it.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 15, 2020)

If a retired soldier with PTSD wants to smoke once a week just to help ease their nerves, I'm not gonna stop them. Even then I'd prefer they didn't smoke it, but until the oils are perfected, and while they're promoting smoking in the military, I'm not gonna be too picky. 

But if someone smokes twenty times because 'they have anxiety' I wanna slap them. If these things could be used responsibly, and only as needed, there wouldn't be so much of an issue with any of this and people would still be nibbling on cocaine leaves for that slight energy boost. But of course, there are people that abuse it- they become dependent and refuse to acknowledge that sometimes in order to stop feeling anxiety, you have to confront and overcome it. Or to stop feeling tired, you need to actually give your body sleep/rest! Don't know how many people try to have a pissing competition on lack of sleep when they also brag about drinking fifty cups of coffee and redbull a day. 

People.
Gr.


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> I guessing who ever is necro posting is addicted to that and necromancy......
> 
> Actually Marijuana can actually sometimes cause Schizophrenia in individuals who are related to patients who have it.


Yes, a brother of a friend of mine developed that after bad weed. Unfortunately, no one knows where he is now, so we have no idea if he's safe. Won't share any names for privacy's sake, but it is a horror story, indeed.


TyraWadman said:


> If a retired soldier with PTSD wants to smoke once a week just to help ease their nerves, I'm not gonna stop them. Even then I'd prefer they didn't smoke it, but until the oils are perfected, and while they're promoting smoking in the military, I'm not gonna be too picky.
> 
> But if someone smokes twenty times because 'they have anxiety' I wanna slap them. If these things could be used responsibly, and only as needed, there wouldn't be so much of an issue with any of this and people would still be nibbling on cocaine leaves for that slight energy boost. But of course, there are people that abuse it- they become dependent and refuse to acknowledge that sometimes in order to stop feeling anxiety, you have to confront and overcome it. Or to stop feeling tired, you need to actually give your body sleep/rest! Don't know how many people try to have a pissing competition on lack of sleep when they also brag about drinking fifty cups of coffee and redbull a day.
> 
> ...


This.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 15, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> Yes, a brother of a friend of mine developed that after bad weed. Unfortunately, no one knows where he is now, so we have no idea if he's safe. Won't share any names for privacy's sake, but it is a horror story, indeed.
> 
> This.



Unregulated weed purchases can be scary. Most people assume weed=relaxed/chill/consequence free and therefore happy- but it's more complicated than that. Everyone reacts differently... and even if you react to the weed okay, there's no promising it wasn't laced with anything else before selling it to you! Next thing you know, people are ending up in the ER or itching for an addiction they didn't know they had. 

Ick.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 15, 2020)

lupi900 said:


> Weed is legal in most parts of the state & *shroom's is soon to fallow.* This whole war on drugs seem's to be nothing but a joke at this point, most drug related crime would be down if drugs were decriminalised.



Please do not shroom me. :{


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## TyraWadman (Jul 15, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> Please do not shroom me. :{


Mario sends his regards...


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## Stray Cat Terry (Jul 15, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> Mario sends his regards...



Mama-mia....


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> Unregulated weed purchases can be scary. Most people assume weed=relaxed/chill/consequence free and therefore happy- but it's more complicated than that. Everyone reacts differently... and even if you react to the weed okay, there's no promising it wasn't laced with anything else before selling it to you! Next thing you know, people are ending up in the ER or itching for an addiction they didn't know they had.
> 
> Ick.


If someone regulates it, it's fine. But then we get into new territory- How to stop illegal sellers from just bringing their prices down to compete with legitimate sellers. If weed is to be regulated, it also needs to suit it's market.

People may accept the risks of unregulated weed if it's cheaper or easier to get their hands on. I will say I'm 99% certain there is a solution to this problem, but I just don't know what it is.

I only really apply this to weed, though.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 15, 2020)

I'll be honest I don't tend to have my_ best _thoughts on drugs. :[


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## Rayd (Jul 15, 2020)

they ruined my life without even having to do them. so that's cool.


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Aprilycan said:


> they ruined my life without even having to do them. so that's cool.


Well said. Let's not forget the effects of drugs on families and friends. More than just the individual can be affected.

Also *hugs*. Alcohol ruined mine, man.


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> That's my argument. Why not go to to a rave or go see a movie? Why do you want to lick a freakin' toad instead of watching the latest blockbuster?
> 
> I disagree that drugs enhance reality. They cloud your judgement. There's a good reason as to why they're illegal. In fact, lots of good reasons.
> 
> ...




But see? Your instant reaction to "drug taking" was to assume a totally delusional state, and I *just* said that they were to be taken responsibility. Most drugs simply don't cause those effects in reasonable doses. You instantly went directly to the stereotypical drugged out hippie laughing at unicorns sitting in a pile of his own pee! <laugh> You're trying to counter a different scenario, but I'm still talking about reasonable responsible drug taking. Are sober people always this unfocused? <laugh>

And yes, I said "enhances reality", because I refuse to believe a drug like MDMA, which literally increases serotonin absorption in the brain enhancing all senses and thoughts *dulls* anything! <laugh> Talk to a single person who's ever done it...you will never get the response "Oh I was so zoned out and barely aware...", I assure you. Other drugs? Speed...that doesn't dull either. You're assuming the effects of all drugs are "LSD at high doses" for convenience I assume? 

But more fun, I present a simple logical counterpoint, and you jump to me being high on Ketamine and "deluded arguement" just becasue it's different than yours? I can at least defend my POV, but when it gets personal, I know you go no argument so that's fine...just surprised how quick it took. <giggle>

And I agree with you again, "different perspective" *isn't* the same as the dancing elephant. That's the problem...*You're* talking about the elephant, while *I'm* talking about the drugs that don't do that but instead are more fun and manageable. But you keep countering the elephant drug stories instead, so we're literally not talking about the same thing. You keep jumping to worst-case stereotypes. Focus! <laugh-wink>


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Jul 15, 2020)

Depending on the drug of course. This term is extremely wide.
From coffee and sugar to bootleg heroine and petrol inhaling.


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## Punji (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> It's funny...most people would probably counter with tales of safety and other comparisons or to dilute the argument by comparing to what's actually allowed and harmful or to pretend that it's really medicine or whatever...
> 
> ...but I won't. I respect your opinion enough not to insult your intelligence. And as you know, *anything *can be abused, even weed or caffeine, right? So factoring all that, all I'll ask is just one simple thing...can you explain *why* being high is a bad thing, within the realm of reason (not constantly, not obsessively).
> 
> Just in general...your premise is "drugs are bad". Cool...if you can do them responsibly and with minimal health effects, then what is the actual reason *why* being high is bad in general? Even totally "sober", we go to dances to get high (energy, music, woohoo attitude)...we go on vacation to get high (tranquility, peace, fun and joy)...we have sex to get high (too obvious)...so what is the issue with being high? <smile> Why is "happy" and "uninhibited" a bad state to be in...again assuming that you can manage the health aspects? Remember...your counterargument cannot include negative health as a reason, just like I cannot factor positive health as a reason *to *do them. It's only fair after all...I'm debating the nature of being high not the toxins.



Thank you, I'm glad we can be reasonable about a rather contentious topic. 

I suppose I'll start with the delegation of responsibility. To put it simply, we have inhibitions for a reason. Intoxication removes inhibitions and prevents logical and coherent thought, and wilful intoxication is a rejection of moral responsibility. This is not a healthy coping mechanism or form of escapism.

Getting "highs" from engaging in recreational activities is very different than chemical highs. Having fun or going on a vacation or whatever doesn't distort or disrupt one's perception of reality and does not impede logical thought or decision making. A person having a good time with friends will still think and act responsibly, but someone drinking or smoking that _dank kush_ might not even with low doses. These "highs" are different. (Also sex addiction is a thing. )

Beyond that I personally just find it disgusting. If someone wants to use a small amount of a controlled substance in the privacy of their own homes, that's not the worst thing ever, though I absolutely still do not like it. I wouldn't stop you. But not everyone will, in fact I dare say most won't. The behaviour of forfeiting responsibility and reasonable control over one's own actions without regard for others is a selfish and morally disgusting one, in my opinion.

However I have to reject your restrictions on discussing the health impacts of drug use. I don't see why self-destructive behaviours shouldn't be discussed when concerning whether or not something "bad." Physical health, I can't possibly see any way in which recreational drugs have ever been anything other than expressly harmful to the body. Maybe I just don't know, but I'm not buying that weed is good for the body. You and I living with universal healthcare, I especially don't want my tax dollars catering to an addict or someone's self-imposed failing health.

Mental health is a very mixed bag. If someone is so utterly dependant on substances to "treat" mental health conditions the only directions are up or six feet under, depending on how well they can control their dependencies. Anything that marijuana could help with could be done through the use of other medical drugs designed with the express purpose without the looming facade of "medical" use. A lot of things can cause addiction, and while not everyone engaging substances routinely is strictly addicted, it causes a significant deterioration in both mental and physical health. It stops being about the "fun" of it and about feeding the need, even if the person doesn't realize it. If someone is dealing with anxiety, turning to recreational drugs isn't going to help long-term. If nothing else, the person can't be high all the time and won't handle the world very well if they can't overcome the issue without it. Got a stressful presentation at work/school? Coming in stoned isn't going really a good idea.

Also anxiety in the absence of recreational drugs sounds suspiciously like the two are connected.

Edit: I suppose I should add I don't think lesser of a person _just_ for drinking or smoking or doing drugs. I don't want my best friend to drink but I like him when he's drunk, because he's so sweet to me. I don't want him to drink though. 

My mother dearest loves her wine. We always joke about it, as she knows my stance. I don't want her to drink, but I don't think less of her when she does.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jul 15, 2020)

I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me.


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## Sappho_Cortez (Jul 15, 2020)

Medications are fine as long as they're used to treat a condition or illness. Beyond that, drugs are bad m'kay.


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> But see? Your instant reaction to "drug taking" was to assume a totally delusional state, and I *just* said that they were to be taken responsibility. Most drugs simply don't cause those effects in reasonable doses. You instantly went directly to the stereotypical drugged out hippie laughing at unicorns sitting in a pile of his own pee! <laugh> You're trying to counter a different scenario, but I'm still talking about reasonable responsible drug taking. Are sober people always this unfocused? <laugh>
> 
> And yes, I said "enhances reality", because I refuse to believe a drug like MDMA, which literally increases serotonin absorption in the brain enhancing all senses and thoughts *dulls* anything! <laugh> Talk to a single person who's ever done it...you will never get the response "Oh I was so zoned out and barely aware...", I assure you. Other drugs? Speed...that doesn't dull either. You're assuming the effects of all drugs are "LSD at high doses" for convenience I assume?
> 
> ...


You're being quite rude to someone taking a logical standpoint. And where are these so-called drugs that can be taken responsibly? Drugs impact your brain's functions...of course they're going to produce illusion and delusional effects. They aren't just toys you can play with and stop playing with when you're bored.

You also seem to assume that whilst taking MDMA, absolutely nothing is happening to you other than you feeling happy. I can promise you that isn't the case and I can also say, your brain is being affected.

The moment you start saying it 'enhances reality', I immediately realised you don't know much about drugs or the definition of reality. But for your sake, I'll continue.

Let's start this again: Drugs like MDMA, heroin, cocaine, LSD, crack, as well as a whole host of other drugs affect your brain and how it works. This is a fact proven by science.

The effects are based upon how much of it you take, but there will always be an effect. And the likelihood is, enough to make you feel high is enough to cause unwanted side effects, like not knowing where the hell you are and leading to symptoms similar to outright psychosis.

This is personal, as you seek to mislead people, and I don't tolerate that on such a subject. I jumped to that because you made an assumption that drugs don't do much to your body other than make you 'feel happy' for a few minutes. Do I have to bring you the grieving and heartbroken families of drug abusers to prove a point that should be a bit more well-known to you?

Explain to me how you, personally, can take cocaine 'responsibly' and not succumb to the unwanted and potentially lethal side effects?


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

Punji said:


> Thank you, I'm glad we can be reasonable about a rather contentious topic.
> 
> I suppose I'll start with the delegation of responsibility. To put it simply, we have inhibitions for a reason. Intoxication removes inhibitions and prevents logical and coherent thought, and wilful intoxication is a rejection of moral responsibility. This is not a healthy coping mechanism or form of escapism.



But the same can be said about everything from churches (joyful emotions to enhance their message) to street performers (who make you laugh so you are more likely to participate and go along with the silliness). Getting high to the point of no responsibility *is* irresponsible I agree totally. But getting slightly high and still being responsible to both body and mind...it's that aspect I submit is fine. And I agree totally again, it is not a good coping mechanism or escapism. That's why I'm *not *asking about those...I specifically said getting high just to get high, NOT as medicine. Those 2 would be "medical uses" and since I'm not claiming that as the reason, I'm being honest and saying "getting high is fun in itself" and asking for counters to *that*. 



Punji said:


> Getting "highs" from engaging in recreational activities is very different than chemical highs. Having fun or going on a vacation or whatever doesn't distort or disrupt one's perception of reality and does not impede logical thought or decision making. A person having a good time with friends will still think and act responsibly, but someone drinking or smoking that _dank kush_ might not even with low doses. These "highs" are different. (Also sex addiction is a thing. )



To the brain they are the same, that's why drugs are a shortcut for many people. Now I'm asking about people who would be on vacation and choose to get a little high to enjoy it more. In the scenario I'm asking about it's not coping nor addiction nor escapism...it's enhancing for fun. You keep talking about the dangers of reduced judgement, but someone who's partying with their friends has the same peer pressures and bad judgements after hours of dancing and whooping it up...sober or not. Again if you say "but high they'd be worse" I'd simply remind you I'm talking about moderate uses where judgment is barely affected. You know, bring a responsible drug user...something I suspect you may believe is an oxymoron. <grin>



Punji said:


> However I have to reject your restrictions on discussing the health impacts of drug use. I don't see why self-destructive behaviours shouldn't be discussed when concerning whether or not something "bad." Physical health, I can't possibly see any way in which recreational drugs have ever been anything other than expressly harmful to the body. Maybe I just don't know, but I'm not buying that weed is good for the body. You and I living with universal healthcare, I especially don't want my tax dollars catering to an addict or someone's self-imposed failing health.



I NEVER would say it's _healthy _in any way...but I disregard the health aspects as an argument for one simple reason...many people can use them in smaller doses which their body can handle as easily as any other toxin. So to them, the health damage is minimal to none. Responsible drug users don't go getting wasted or delusionally high...they do a bit and enjoy their activity fully-functional. It's *those* people I am discussing, anyone who's just getting wasted is already irresponsible. So even factoring the negative health uses disregards the millions of users that are saying "Yeah if you did THAT much no *wonder *you're messed up! Idiot druggies giving us a bad name..."






Punji said:


> Mental health is a very mixed bag. If someone is so utterly dependant on substances to "treat" mental health conditions the only directions are up or six feet under, depending on how well they can control their dependencies. Anything that marijuana could help with could be done through the use of other medical drugs designed with the express purpose without the looming facade of "medical" use. A lot of things can cause addiction, and while not everyone engaging substances routinely is strictly addicted, it causes a significant deterioration in both mental and physical health. It stops being about the "fun" of it and about feeding the need, even if the person doesn't realize it. If someone is dealing with anxiety, turning to recreational drugs isn't going to help long-term. If nothing else, the person can't be high all the time and won't handle the world very well if they can't overcome the issue without it. Got a stressful presentation at work/school? Coming in stoned isn't going really a good idea. Also anxiety in the absence of recreational drugs sounds suspiciously like the two are connected.



Agreed totally...that's why I'm not talking about those people. <laugh> If you *need* it, you have a problem regardless of the substance. We're still talking about those who choose it safely. <giggle> See the problem? Every time the discussion goes straight to those who'd destroy themselves and responsible people are assumed to not even exist in the debates. I always found that funny...must be the drugs. <laugh-wink>


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Agreed totally...that's why I'm not talking about those people. <laugh> If you *need* it, you have a problem regardless of the substance. We're still talking about those who choose it safely. <giggle> See the problem? Every time the discussion goes straight to those who'd destroy themselves and responsible people are assumed to not even exist in the debates. I always found that funny...must be the drugs. <laugh-wink>


You do realise that most discussions about drug are about drug abuse? And that it is important to address it cos it is a problem?

If you want drugs, the process is still the same: You pay for them, you take them, you feel the effects, you may or may not experience a serious reaction or consequence from them. Are you saying we should just prescribe drugs to people willy-nilly cos they can't enjoy themselves without it?

To me, the idea that you want to take drugs to make something 'more fun' is a sign that thing is probably not for you. Don't need to take MDMA to force yourself to enjoy something. If you don't like it, you don't like it. It's no excuse to take hard drugs and gallivant off with a 'who cares, I haven't taken that much' attitude.

You also must realise if you're caught driving under the influence, you get into trouble, no matter how much you've taken?


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> You're being quite rude to someone taking a logical standpoint. And where are these so-called drugs that can be taken responsibly? Drugs impact your brain's functions...of course they're going to produce illusion and delusional effects. They aren't just toys you can play with and stop playing with when you're bored.
> 
> You also seem to assume that whilst taking MDMA, absolutely nothing is happening to you other than you feeling happy. I can promise you that isn't the case and I can also say, your brain is being affected.
> 
> ...




Ok, I honestly didn't think i was being rude <shrug>, but I'll try to ensure you know I'm calm when I point out in order of your incorrect points, ok? <smile>:

First, I did NOT say they were toys...in fact I'm going out of my way to point out they are to be treated with respect. That's what being responsible means in this context. 

Next, if you want a good example, I know the chemical process of MDMA but didn't want to bore everyone with unnecessary details. Now when someone takes 1/20th of the standard dosage at rare intervals, they will be fine. I know that *because* of medical research. That's being responsible again. Doctors gave it to people for treatment. Every single patient was fine afterwards. We're still not talking about the same thing...

Next, they affect the brain. Yeah I know. Then they get absorbed and all is fine. IF YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE and do small amounts at rare intervals. It;s a key point you are ignoring and it was my starting point. <sigh> Your "psychosis and not knowing where you are" argument has no meaning because again...we are talking about lower doses spaced out. 

You can bring out all the grieving families you want. I'll point out that every single one of them was irresponsible. And the exact opposite of the people I'm talking about. So no real point really...

Oh and just to round things out...I accept your challenge. I don't personally do cocaine but *if* I did, responsible use would be as an example 1/10th a gram a week. The body would metabolize that easily, the high would be minimal, and even a doctor would have to admit that damage would be not even detectable at those doeses. With weed or other drugs it's far simpler to give you scenarios but is there a point really? It's not hard to fathom responsible drug use, so where's the mis-information, mister "all drugs destroy your ability to judge anything, make you hallucinate and lead to nothing but misery"? <LOL> You simply are coming at it from the opposite end of the spectum and haven't actually given a counterarguement yet. Yet I am rude? S'ok. <snicker>


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## TyraWadman (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Agreed totally...that's why I'm not talking about those people. <laugh> If you *need* it, you have a problem regardless of the substance. We're still talking about those who choose it safely.


_So why do you *need* it?_ 
Why do you _want_ it? 
Why do you _choose_ it? 

Especially when the dose is so small that it's barely noticeable.


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> You do realise that most discussions about drug are about drug abuse? And that it is important to address it cos it is a problem?
> 
> If you want drugs, the process is still the same: You pay for them, you take them, you feel the effects, you may or may not experience a serious reaction or consequence from them. Are you saying we should just prescribe drugs to people willy-nilly cos they can't enjoy themselves without it?
> 
> ...



I really do agree totally with every word here! But the topic was asked about drugs in general. Abuse to be is a separate topic. It's like insisting every discussion about beer must reference AA, right? <grin>

So no, don;t prscribe drugs at all unless it's necessary. Not the topic as this is medical and I'm referring to people just wanting to be high for fun. Agree don't take MDMA to FORCE yourself to like something...but to add to it? My question is "why not" and the replies are skipping that part and going to "why do you need to?", changing the question totally. <lol>  And driving high IS bad...that's irresponsible! Totally against what I'm suggesting! See how it works? <LOL> All arguements against me seem to be changing the point and removing the *responsible *part! <laughs more> Of course dipshits exist, but we're not talking about them...

So...for minimal usage with consent and not for escapism or self-medicating but merely as an enhancement to an already enjoyable activity...any reasons why this is bad? <wink>


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> _So why do you *need* it?_
> Why do you _want_ it?
> Why do you _choose_ it?
> 
> Especially when the dose is so small that it's barely noticeable.


Well...this, exactly.

I don't know what a tenth of a gram of coke can do to you that's so beneficial.


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## Sappho_Cortez (Jul 15, 2020)

I actually have no room to speak, I've smoked weed with no regrets... I love to floaty feeling but I am adamant about keeping others away from marijuana because it takes away your sense of responsibility.

People, dont be like me. Dont be an idiot.

On the bright side, I haven't smoked in two or three months. I'm trying to get a job and get my life back on track.


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## Mambi (Jul 15, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> Well...this, exactly.
> 
> I don't know what a tenth of a gram of coke can do to you that's so beneficial.



It isn't...I was just asked for a scenario that was responsible, not necessarily desired or "worth it".


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> It isn't...I was just asked for a scenario that was responsible, not necessarily desired or "worth it".


No, I believe you were asked 'how would you take a drug responsibly'. You weren't asked 'what's the lowest possible dose of a drug that I can give to somebody'.

So, tell me, how would you take or use a drug responsibly that is considered 'worth it'?


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## AceQuorthon (Jul 15, 2020)

Weed is coolio


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## Kuroserama (Jul 15, 2020)

Asking about a stance on drugs is like asking someone’s stance on people. It’s vague and will have answers all over the place.

I speak from personal experience, of being 11 and having a mother addicted to cocaine. I did not know what was happening at the time but I knew something was wrong. It was really scary, especially when I was left alone. One night when my mother was out, I spent hours standing against a wall in our apartment with a butcher knife in one hand and a hammer in the other because I thought someone was inside (but not sure enough to call the cops). Then there was the time when the doctors said my mother had about two weeks to live. It was not a fun time in my life, nor hers.

It is most definitely a fact that drugs can and do change the chemical makeup of your brain. My mother has a slew of mental health issues. Many of them, doctors say, are from her use of cocaine. But the doctors also contribute a lot to legal drugs that she was prescribed and took correctly, because later they found out “oops, this actually isn’t good for you.”

Obviously, prescription drugs can and are abused. Yes, everything can be a ‘drug’ and we all know addictions have many forms. Some people are more prone addictive tendencies. So while someone may be able to have some drugs, decide it’s not for them and go on about their life, others have a switched flipped and it takes over their lives.

If it only effected the person themselves, it wouldn’t be such a big deal to me. But the domino effect that drugs can and usually do cause really bothers me.

I had to have my wisdom teeth pulled and had to be put under. I remember that feeling very well. I was kind of sleepy and dopey and in a dream-like state. It was enjoyable. So I can understand being hooked, or chasing that feeling. And that’s why they are so dangerous to many people, in my eyes.

And just to be clear, I do believe legal drugs and things like medical marijuana are beneficial and necessary. They need a lot of work on how they are managed as many people who need these medicines cannot get them, but that’s a debate for a different thread.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 15, 2020)

Seeing as I'm going to go ignored yet again, I'mma just go ahead and give my answer. 

A responsible drug user is someone that can take things as directed on the label and *only as needed. *
The human body is a complicated balance of chemicals. Everything you add to it, is going to upset that balance in that moment or later on. 
What happens when we eat sugar? We get hyper.
What happens when we lose that energy? We burn out and crash. We feel miserable, and rightly so. 
The same can be said with emotions, like happiness. 

If you are capable of feeling happy, but feel like giving it a 'responsible' boost, there's already something wrong if you can't enjoy yourself as is. 
Even that little boost can add up to the crash you'll feel later.
Life isn't supposed to be constantly up, nor is it supposed to be constantly down. If anything, most of the time should be spent feeling calm. 
That's why we have therapists to diagnose people with things like chemical depression or bipolar disorders. 

That's why I hate those people that constantly preach that we should all be smiling constantly because 'we have nothing to feel sad about'. Fuck off. Just because I'm not beaming doesn't mean I'm not content.


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## KD142000 (Jul 15, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> Seeing as I'm going to go ignored yet again, I'mma just go ahead and give my answer.
> 
> A responsible drug user is someone that can take things as directed on the label and *only as needed. *
> The human body is a complicated balance of chemicals. Everything you add to it, is going to upset that balance in that moment or later on.
> ...


This is very much true.


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## Punji (Jul 15, 2020)

Mambi said:


> But the same can be said about everything from churches (joyful emotions to enhance their message) to street performers (who make you laugh so you are more likely to participate and go along with the silliness). Getting high to the point of no responsibility *is* irresponsible I agree totally. But getting slightly high and still being responsible to both body and mind...it's that aspect I submit is fine. And I agree totally again, it is not a good coping mechanism or escapism. That's why I'm *not *asking about those...I specifically said getting high just to get high, NOT as medicine. Those 2 would be "medical uses" and since I'm not claiming that as the reason, I'm being honest and saying "getting high is fun in itself" and asking for counters to *that*.



I don't really think attending church and watching a street performer are at exactly the same point on a scale as the use of psychedelics.  Regardless, even a slight intoxication is enough to alter the brain's function. If a person is feeling the effects of a drug he is under its influence and may not act as though he would if sober. I certainly wouldn't want to ride in a car with someone who's _slightly _high.

Purposefully intoxicating oneself to the point of impairment, no matter how minor, is irresponsible, in my opinion.



Mambi said:


> To the brain they are the same, that's why drugs are a shortcut for many people. Now I'm asking about people who would be on vacation and choose to get a little high to enjoy it more. In the scenario I'm asking about it's not coping nor addiction nor escapism...it's enhancing for fun. You keep talking about the dangers of reduced judgement, but someone who's partying with their friends has the same peer pressures and bad judgements after hours of dancing and whooping it up...sober or not. Again if you say "but high they'd be worse" I'd simply remind you I'm talking about moderate uses where judgment is barely affected. You know, bring a responsible drug user...something I suspect you may believe is an oxymoron. <grin>



I don't believe that's true. Sure, they may both get the happy juices flowing but drugs alter brain chemistry in abnormal ways that simply enjoyable activities don't.

I'm saying more along the lines of being in a state of intoxication leaves a person in a state of vulnerability, which can often also mean a danger or nuisance to others. It's a lot easier to manipulate a drunk person than a sober one. Coax information or actions, for example.  But they'll also lack social inhibitions and be more expressive and emotional and willing to do things without considering the consequences. Vulnerable to others, vulnerable to themselves. A person doesn't have to be completely messed up to not be thinking straight. And people already do stupid things when completely sober. 

Anyways, just because you might not go overboard or use them "responsibly" doesn't mean everyone will or what they might call responsible. Again I dare say most people don't take small doses on the occasion and certainly not when on vacation.

Yes, I must admit I do see that as something of an oxymoron. 



Mambi said:


> I NEVER would say it's _healthy _in any way...but I disregard the health aspects as an argument for one simple reason...many people can use them in smaller doses which their body can handle as easily as any other toxin. So to them, the health damage is minimal to none. Responsible drug users don't go getting wasted or delusionally high...they do a bit and enjoy their activity fully-functional. It's *those* people I am discussing, anyone who's just getting wasted is already irresponsible. So even factoring the negative health uses disregards the millions of users that are saying "Yeah if you did THAT much no *wonder *you're messed up! Idiot druggies giving us a bad name..."



Ah, I must have mixed up who said what, my bad. But again, just because a person can take drugs in safe dosages, most people probably won't or at least not forever. (Dare I say it. ) Just look at addicts or alcoholics or obesity; If everyone took everything in the right amounts they wouldn't really exist. But correct me if I'm wrong, I genuinely wouldn't know, does a person not require larger and larger dosages to get the same effect even if used relatively infrequently? At least for some substances anyway, that much I know.

Though, I maintain if a person is feeling a buzz or whatever, they're intoxicated. There isn't a medical range where a person can feel the pleasant affects of an illicit substance and not be impaired by it. There is no such thing as high to any degree and simultaneously full-functional.



Mambi said:


> Agreed totally...that's why I'm not talking about those people. <laugh> If you *need* it, you have a problem regardless of the substance. We're still talking about those who choose it safely. <giggle> See the problem? Every time the discussion goes straight to those who'd destroy themselves and responsible people are assumed to not even exist in the debates. I always found that funny...must be the drugs. <laugh-wink>



Well, no one _wants_ to be an addict. I imagine it just happens, careless use, used just one too many times, maybe just used a smidge too much one time. Whatever the reason it was an accident. "Safe use" is relative when the substance in question is inherently not safe. Drug use always carries risks.


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## Simo (Jul 15, 2020)

Like so many things I think we spend too much time worrying about them. As with everything it's a mixed bag of good and bad--- but at the end of the day I find life is short and is best enjoyed. Making moral imperatives that people 'should' avoid them out of hand has always struck me as shrill and prudish; from coffee to wine to weed they are woven into the fabric of human culture and wagging ones finger at the whole affair in shame is as tiresome as it is pedantic.


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## Glossolalia (Jul 15, 2020)

"Drugs" is such a broad label that it's hard to make any sweeping judgements about them. Certain drugs, for certain people, in certain contexts, can be harmless, can ruin lives, can save lives, can cloud judgment, can open minds, can be a fun activity to share with friends. The less we hide under layers of stigma and the more we study them and the systems surrounding them, the better we'll be able to handle each individual case.


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## rekcerW (Jul 15, 2020)

I've done an assortment of drugs in history, and all I wound up as is an alcoholic, so that's not bad.

It's crazy how people justify spending a boatload of money over and over to feel good for a few hours, chase a shit high, and finish off by feeling like a giant bag of shit the next day. Or people that spend upwards of weeks on giant benders, collecting a few hours of sleep here and there over the course.

I gave up the hard shit, but personally, once I'm out, I'm done. I never even thought about going back to get more of whatever shit I was on, just rode the feel-like-shit train and didn't sleep for a long time. Nowadays, if something pops up at some kind of gathering (in the unlikely event I go to one), I MIGHT do a bit of whatever's there, but I primarily just drink at home by myself because I'm a giant anti-social mofo.

I'd be right back into the pot if my job didn't drug test, though, it was some fucking nice to actually be able to get back into it for a bit during lock-down.

But, it's different strokes for different folks. Some people get right into the blow on their time off, some people read books.


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## Magnuswolf (Jul 16, 2020)

I smoke weed on a daily basis for the most part. I was on anti depressants like Prozac when I was younger and all it did was mess me up. I prefer the more natural method to manage depression etc. I can understand double durban kush more than I can understand fluoxetine. There's no difference between taking pills everyday or smoking a joint.

Also the potential CBD has as a medicine that doesn't get you high shouldn't be ignored.

I tried shrooms once and it was fun until I fell into that "dark place" or whatever. I'd only try them again in a way better setting than I was before. No acid though. Nope.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 21, 2020)

Nitrous Oxide was on the news this morning because extended use can cause spinal cord diseases. 

Thought I'd share that here just in case anybody needs to know it.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jul 21, 2020)

I think the bigger question is what is everyone's thoughts on my cheesy goodness?


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## Fallowfox (Jul 21, 2020)

Mr. Fox said:


> I think the bigger question is what is everyone's thoughts on my cheesy goodness?



That's not the bigger question.

That's the burger question.


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## Saokymo (Jul 21, 2020)

Cheese is the gateway drug. Get out of here with that melty gooey goodness, you godless demon-burger!


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## Borophagus Metropolis (Jul 21, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> Nitrous Oxide was on the news this morning because extended use can cause spinal cord diseases.
> 
> Thought I'd share that here just in case anybody needs to know it.



It also causes danger to manifold, and then your floor pan could fall out.


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## Guifrog (Jul 21, 2020)

Just keep using me in moderation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







Mr. Fox said:


> I think the bigger question is what is everyone's thoughts on my cheesy goodness?


I got a cheese bread overdose that made me throw up every time I'd try it again, but it's all back to normal and I got a slight relapse. Not 20 at once anymore, just 5 now


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## Toby_Morpheus (Jul 21, 2020)

Nice necro

Subject: Everything in moderation. If you're a responsible citizen, do whatever you like in your own time.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jul 21, 2020)

I mean, if I look at this list, it seems pretty bad, honestly...

Wernicke-Korsakov Syndrome
epileptic attacks
Brain atrophy
Pellagra
Polyneuropathy
Tooth ruins
Mallory-Weiss Syndrome
Reflux esophagitis
Malabsorption syndrome
Malnutrition
Carcinomas: oral cavity, oesophagus, stomach
primary hepatocellular carcinoma
Zieve Syndrome
Acute Pancreatitis
chronic calcifying pancreatitis
Cardiovascular system:
Holiday Heart Syndromes
alcoholic dilated cardiomyopathy
arterial hypertension
Apoplexy
Coronary heart disease
Hypertriglyceridemia
Hyperuricemia
Hypoglycaemia
Porphyria cutanea tarda
hyperchromic anaemia with folic acid deficiency
Weakness of the immune system with consecutive susceptibility to infections
Loss of libido and impotence in men due to testosterone deficiency
Oligorrhoea / amenorrhoea in women due to oestrogen deficiency
Pseudo-Cushing's Syndrome
That being said, I guess most drugs are pretty bad, too.


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## Mambi (Jul 21, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> I mean, if I look at this list, it seems pretty bad, honestly...
> 
> Wernicke-Korsakov Syndrome
> epileptic attacks
> ...




A good half of those apply to abusing simple sugar though. The devil is in the details.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Jul 21, 2020)

Mr. Fox said:


> I think the bigger question is what is everyone's thoughts on my cheesy goodness?


Scientific studies show you are actually rather addictive. 
*nom nom nom*


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jul 21, 2020)

Mambi said:


> A good half of those apply to abusing simple sugar though. The devil is in the details.


And all of these apply to alcohol. That's the point.


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## Mambi (Jul 21, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> And all of these apply to alcohol. That's the point.



And it is a *good *point I agree with. <grin> When listing medical symptoms of anything, you need context or anything sounds obscenely dangerous.


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## Zerzehn (Jul 21, 2020)

My thoughts on recreational stuff: Legalize (or at least decriminalize some of the hard stuff) it all. Treat addiction as a medical issue and not a legal one.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Jul 21, 2020)

Zerzehn said:


> My thoughts on recreational stuff: Legalize (or at least decriminalize some of the hard stuff) it all. Treat addiction as a medical issue and not a legal one.


Give people a safe location with safely synthesized drugs at an affordable price. Have a one-way mirror so a nurse on scene can watch them.
Then use the money used by sale and taxation of drugs for rehabilitation programs and offer them to the people on the way out.


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## MaelstromEyre (Jul 21, 2020)

My thought - do what you want when it comes to recreational drugs, but know that the outcome is entirely your responsibility to deal with.

If you fail a drug test and can't get a job, that's your fault.
If you lie to and steal from friends and family to continue your addiction, that is your fault.
If your addiction leads to arrest, jail time, permanent criminal record. . .that is your fault.

I know too many people whose addictions have not only ruined their lives, but the lives of their parents and families, they have lost custody of their kids, they are unemployable, they have burned all of their bridges in life.  And they still blame everyone and everything else for their troubles.


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## hara-surya (Jul 21, 2020)

“We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.

Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.”

― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas


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## JustAlex1997 (Jul 22, 2020)

If you want to put something in your body, you should have the right to do so in an environment where you won't do harm to others. I strongly advise against drug use/abuse as I've unfortunately experienced how unrecognizable people become because of it (as well as the lasting impact it has on the minds of those who care for you), but I'll never argue against your right to walk that path.


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## Simo (Jul 22, 2020)

My thought right now is that for the first time ever, I'm going to go to a fully legal recreational cannabis dispensary in northern Michigan now that we have them, and I'm very excited! Have not had any in ages, and it'll sure be nice for my sore muscles from this rather arduous bread baking job (10 to 12 hours of baking rack after rack of heavy loaves of sourdough and wheat makes a body very achy).

I'm happy there's finally alternatives to drinking available here; for a lot of folks, alcohol is so much more dangerous, myself included. Can't wait to finally see how it is to buy it in a store...vs. a parking lot


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## Mambi (Jul 22, 2020)

Simo said:


> My thought right now is that for the first time ever, I'm going to go to a fully legal recreational cannabis dispensary in northern Michigan now that we have them, and I'm very excited! Have not had any in ages, and it'll sure be nice for my sore muscles from this rather arduous bread baking job (10 to 12 hours of baking rack after rack of heavy loaves of sourdough and wheat makes a body very achy).
> 
> I'm happy there's finally alternatives to drinking available here; for a lot of folks, alcohol is so much more dangerous, myself included. Can't wait to finally see how it is to buy it in a store...vs. a parking lot



As a Canadian, buying weed from the store legally is old hat now. Just remember, CBD is the pain-managing component, so if that's your goal, make sure you buy one high in that and lower in THC. Oils or extracts/edibles are probably your best bet.


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## Simo (Jul 22, 2020)

Mambi said:


> As a Canadian, buying weed from the store legally is old hat now. Just remember, CBD is the pain-managing component, so if that's your goal, make sure you buy one high in that and lower in THC. Oils or extracts/edibles are probably your best bet.



True...though the THC is sure a nice distraction! There's been medical here for a while, but recreational is new.

On that note, I have a new motto for Michigan, but folks here don't seem to think we should adopt it, even though I think it'd be funny:

Michigan: _Almost_ Canada


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jul 22, 2020)

My thoughts on drugs are difficult to describe. They only make sense when I'm on drugs


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## FlooferWoofer (Jul 22, 2020)

My thoughts on drugs? Quite trippy. Ha!

For the reel though, I'm a mixed bag there. On one paw I believe a person should get to live their life however they choose provided they aren't hurting anyone in the process. On the other, some substances should still be confiscated and destroyed where ever it's seized: Heroine, Crack, Meth, Cocaine, etc because these foster addictions that would drive an otherwise decent person to steal, lie, drive loaded, etc. 

Weed should be legalized for sure. Criminalization has just lead to a lucrative underground market and people smoking that nasty "incense"stuff in lieu of weed that can fry your brain.


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## dragon-in-sight (Jul 23, 2020)

I don't care if anyone takes ganja or shrooms. But I myself never felt the urge to take drugs or smoke. I even rarely drink alcohol, beside at a party now and then. I've other vices to attend to. ^^,,


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 23, 2020)

Dwugs awe Owo-kay!

...That was so bad

I like coffee and alcohol, never tried any other


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## Sirnannos (Dec 10, 2020)

It all depends on what we consider to be drugs. Some people believe that smartphones and the Internet are serious drugs, and for some, heroin is entertainment. I do not belong to either the first or the second type, since they are something in between. I have never tried hard drugs and to be honest, I do not want to try, because I do not see the point in this. The most I've tried is marijuana and kratom. It was very difficult to find the best kratom buy, but I did it with the help of my friend. I do not consider this a drug, since it does not cause such addiction as heroin or cocaine. You can also easily get rid of them, so this is also the reason why this can not be considered a drug, but do not forget that each person has their own opinion and I will not dispute someone's opinion. I just want to say that soft drugs are nothing wrong if not abused (IMHO)


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## Ramjet (Dec 10, 2020)

Drug laws are asinine, none of the governments business what you put in your body as far as I'm concerned.
I could see psychedelics being the next to go legal, so much medical potential with both acid and mushrooms in the department of depression and PTSD.

Also, I can neither confirm or deny my love for acid


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## JacobFloofWoof (Dec 10, 2020)

Fuck the DEA, if you can't afford a doctor or insurance, you should be able to treat yourself.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Dec 10, 2020)

Only if someone has a medical condition where they need them, otherwise I try to abstain from it as much as possible. I hate smoking, any recreational drug, and even alcohol. I was once on Adderall until they realized it didn't help me. In terms of weed, I am split. I believe if you need it then you should take it in proper amounts, otherwise I don't see the point other than for medical use.


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## fawlkes (Dec 10, 2020)

Lupus Et Revertetur said:


> Fuck the DEA, if you can't afford a doctor or insurance, you should be able to treat yourself.


I would only slightly agree with you here. For the most part people only treat symptoms, they don't treat causes. I have big books of medicines and drugs full of uses, indicators, contra-indicators, side effects, and warnings on almost every substance available on the market right now, including the prices for the UK Health Board and private pharmacies... and I even I wouldn't feel comfortable prescribing medication to someone unless approved by a health professional.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 10, 2020)

This is kinda a political discussion. 

Thanks to Fawlkes for pointing out the dangers that medical grade drugs pose, and the reason that their prescription is entrusted to qualified professionals.


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## ben909 (Dec 10, 2020)

Did not want to be the second one to comment of this because its old, but other people have so, deploys a picture from another thread

—————

in a more serrious note, drugs and other chemicals should be used with caution


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## Mambi (Dec 10, 2020)

Lupus Et Revertetur said:


> Fuck the DEA, if you can't afford a doctor or insurance, you should be able to treat yourself.



Catch is, some people aren't qualified to get their health right with just regular FOOD let alone mind-and-body altering chemicals. <_grin_>

Me, I think it's really an individual thing...like drinking. Some people enjoy a drink or 2 occasionally and are perfectly fine, while some others become ugly hopeless alcoholics in no time flat, but it's not the *alcohol *that caused it...it was the *person*. Be it drugs or guns or fireworks or pufferfish livers...some people are responsible and others are dangers to themselves and others around them.

That's how I see drugs...some people can handle them fine and even benefit from them, others need to be watched. But blaming the *object* for the actions of the *individual *is just silly to me, and misses the root problem totally. Take way the drug from an addict and they will simply have the same addictive personality that got them in trouble in the first place and find something else...why not deal with THAT issue first? Which BTW is what rehab does...they don't just clean you up, they make you understand what went wrong with *you* in the first place to get to the point where you needed rehab while others did not.


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## Miles Marsalis (Dec 10, 2020)

Kind of wondering if this appropriate for a PG-13 forum, but hey. 

As for drugs, I never did them and I feel others probably shouldn't, but as long as they are legal that is their business.


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## Mambi (Dec 10, 2020)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Kind of wondering if this appropriate for a PG-13 forum, but hey.
> 
> As for drugs, I never did them and I feel others probably shouldn't, but as long as they are legal that is their business.



Are you kidding? This is the time TO talk about drugs if not sooner in age. Anyone over 13 can easily have exposure at any time to them...might as well learn from all sides what's up with them. 

If it makes you feel better, nobody's saying "OMG you have to try this!" (which IMO I'd agree would be inappropriate), but having multiple opinions and viewpoints is never harmful in getting honest information out and cutting through any misconceptions, rather than propaganda. Given the current tone, I this is appropriate age-wise I think...


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## Yakamaru (Dec 10, 2020)

>New account
>Posts in a long-dead thread


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## Miles Marsalis (Dec 10, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Are you kidding? This is the time TO talk about drugs if not sooner in age. Anyone over 13 can easily have exposure at any time to them...might as well learn from all sides what's up with them. If it makes you feel better, nobody's saying "OMG you have to try this!"...which IMO I'd agree would be inappropriate, but having multiple opinions and viewpoints is never harmful in getting honest information out.


I don't have a problem with kids being taught about drugs and their effects in an educational setting by experts, like how sex ed how is done. That is fine, especially in the midst of an opioid epidemic.

That said, I wouldn't trust every single here to give accurate information about drug and their usage to minors in an informative manner conducive to their safety. There is such a thing as bad advice and with drugs, poor information can kill.

All sides are not accurate and people can have different reactions to drugs.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 10, 2020)

Medical drugs? That's fine.
Recreational drugs? Technically that'd depend heavily, but in general I'm usually against them, like don't get me wrong I know I have had edibles at one point, granted that's prob the most generic kind of drug, but it's also the legal one here, or at least in the city I'm at it's fine. Plus my mother was there anyway, a nurse so she more than knew it wouldn't be bad to me in moderation.

Maybe in future I might try more, but honestly, know the risks and know what you're getting yourself into of course to those who are 18+ you're an adult and can technically do whatever, but have some common sense. I've set my limits on what drugs I'd never want to do and I'll keep in contact with peeps with more medical info about such things if needed.

tl;dr: Do your research, and stay safe.


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## Mambi (Dec 10, 2020)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I don't have a problem with kids being taught about drug and their effects in an educational setting by experts, like how sex ed how is done. That is fine, especially in the midst of an opioid epidemic.
> 
> That said, I wouldn't trust every single here to give accurate information about drug and their usage to minors in an informative manner conducive to their safety. There is such a thing as bad advice and with drugs, poor information can kill.
> 
> All sides are not accurate and people can have different reactions to drugs.



Exactly...neither would I, which is why it's good to have multiple opinions...to cancel out the garbage. Kind of a self-correcting system...


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## Miles Marsalis (Dec 10, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Exactly...neither would I, which is why it's good to have multiple opinions...to cancel out the garbage. Kind of a self-correcting system...


Except those multiple opinions may include the wrong information that people who are not familiar with recreational drugs may be able to identify.


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## Eremurus (Dec 10, 2020)

Marijuana. : ) Good stuff.


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## Meta_Tiara (Dec 11, 2020)

Had some alcoholic beverages in the past, and my daily medication might count as drugs. Other than that, I really haven’t delved much into drugs and I have no motivation to do so. I‘m fine with drugs when they’re used responsibly by adults, whether they be for recreational, medical, or whatever purposes.


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## JuniperW (Dec 11, 2020)

I have zero problems with medicinal drugs. 

As for the more dangerous drugs in a recreational context...I would encourage everyone not to take them. You're better safe than sorry. 
Tobacco and alcohol can just as easily mess up your life if you become dependent on them. Responsible use is a must, even for legal drugs. 

At the same time, I think we often treat addicts WAY too harshly. Our primary concern should be getting them the help they need, not putting them in prison.


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## Telnac (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm not a big fan of mind altering drugs but so long as someone is doing drugs in the privacy of their own home and they're not hurting anyone, that's none of my business.

That said, addiction is both terrifying and destructive. Having fun in occasion is one thing but if you need drugs every day just to feel normal, please get help!


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## Fallowfox (Dec 12, 2020)

Something worth pointing out is that no illicit drug can be considered safe. 

If you're about to use an illegal drug, its purity and strength hasn't been approved by a regulator. So you really have no idea what you're actually going to put into your body.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Dec 12, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> Something worth pointing out is that no illicit drug can be considered safe.
> 
> If you're about to use an illegal drug, its purity and strength hasn't been approved by a regulator. So you really have no idea what you're actually going to put into your body.



I agree, if you need to take a drug illegally then more than likely you're not needing it for medicinal purposes. Dosage and moderation is necessary for any substance, even when it's needed.


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## Lexiand (Dec 12, 2020)

I would not recommend drugs of any kind unless your doctor prescribes them.
Unless its those hard stuff then no.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Dec 12, 2020)

They gave me Adderall in the 90's and early 2000's because they thought I had ADD, I was so miserable on that shit that I lied to my parents about taking it in the morning for a year and eventually I told them and they realized I didn't need it. Oh and it turned out I had autism and not ADD.


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## FlooferWoofer (Dec 12, 2020)

Honestly? My opinions on drugs may change once I see how the decriminalization of everything pans out in Oregon. Stay tuned for potentially changing opinions and character growth!


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## Lucyfur (Dec 12, 2020)

If it isnt posing a danger to others than tbh it shouldn't be an issue.
We should educate and inform people what they can expect from the drugs though like hey youll feel like this but it can have these effects on your body and this risk to it as well, but beyond that I would say screw it let people do what they will far as drugs go.

I would actually go a step farther and say we should provide safe locations for people to do their drugs and includes providing sterile syringes and such as well, and resources for getting rehabilitation if they desire to do so as well.


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## Eremurus (Dec 12, 2020)

I think the decriminalization of all drugs, the way Portugal approached it, is the correct route.

I believe (too lazy to copy paste the links, but you can Google it) that their overall usage rate and incarceration as a result decreased significantly.


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## FlooferWoofer (Dec 12, 2020)

Lucyfur said:


> If it isnt posing a danger to others than tbh it shouldn't be an issue.
> We should educate and inform people what they can expect from the drugs though like hey youll feel like this but it can have these effects on your body and this risk to it as well, but beyond that I would say screw it let people do what they will far as drugs go.
> 
> I would actually go a step farther and say we should provide safe locations for people to do their drugs and includes providing sterile syringes and such as well, and resources for getting rehabilitation if they desire to do so as well.


Agreed. Also, this way if an overdose happens they are right there where immediate help is. It would be much more preferable to doing them somewhere sketchy. I'm still just waiting to see how it affects things like the economy, incarceration, addiction rates, and the more unpredictable sociological impacts before I decide.

I don't expect it will play out too differently than say Colorado and cannabis, but it will still be fascinating to see the impacts play out.


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## Ramjet (Dec 12, 2020)

Eremurus said:


> I think the decriminalization of all drugs, the way Portugal approached it, is the correct route.
> 
> I believe (too lazy to copy paste the links, but you can Google it) that their overall usage rate and incarceration as a result decreased significantly.



This 100%


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## Deleted member 133545 (Dec 12, 2020)

Ramjet556 said:


> This 100%


Props to my country


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## MaelstromEyre (Dec 12, 2020)

To me, it's not just about the people getting addicted - it's about what the addicts do to the people in their own lives, and themselves.

I have lost a cousin to addiction.  She OD'd.

My dad was a functional alcoholic for years, then he started doing prescription sleep aids.  He was taking two or three Ambien at a time.  He lost everything because of it.

My fiance's daughter has been in and out of prison since she was in her early twenties.  She's in her thirties now.  She has a 13 year old kid she abandoned because she chose her addiction over him.  She stole tens of thousands of dollars from her own parents and grandparents and other family to fund her addiction.  She has been permanently disowned by the entire family because she cannot be trusted.  Even when they were trying to help and support her, she lied and stole from them, and enough was enough.  Her grandparents and son were almost left homeless because of her actions.

If they want to do the drugs. . .that's fine. . .but they should not expect a warm welcome when their addiction destroys the lives of the people around them, too.


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## Parabellum3 (Dec 14, 2020)

I’m experimenting with cannabis myself. I heard that it has a lot of potential for helping me with my problems such as depression, anxiety, autism, and ADHD.


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## JacobFloofWoof (Dec 15, 2020)

Parabellum3 said:


> I’m experimenting with cannabis myself. I heard that it has a lot of potential for helping me with my problems such as depression, anxiety, autism, and ADHD.


It also has the potential to make those a lot worse. Research marijuana panic attacks, and hppd.


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## quoting_mungo (Dec 15, 2020)

Self-medicating in general is usually not advisable, especially not on a more regular basis. (There are, full disclosure, circumstances where I might self-medicate with alcohol, but they are definitely a rare exception, not a regular thing. Like less than a handful times _ever_ so far rare exception.) One of the great tragedies of the war on drugs is how much it has limited research on drugs, along with it being pushed underground where there’s no quality assurance. So not only do we not necessarily have exhaustive data on reactions and interactions, there’s also always the risk of the product being cut with something else that changes how you metabolize it, or which you have a poor reaction to. Impurities wouldn’t so much be a concern with eg. marijuana from a legal dispensary or alcohol from a store, but “illegal” drugs (including marijuana given it’s still federally illegal) still have the problem of limitations on research.

Everyone will also react differently to intoxicants, so self-medicating based on other people’s experiences is an especially poor idea.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Dec 15, 2020)

I personally hate being on any medication, but if I must I'll consult my physician first. I was once forced to take Adderall in my childhood.


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## Parabellum3 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lupus Et Revertetur said:


> It also has the potential to make those a lot worse. Research marijuana panic attacks, and hppd.


So far I see no negative effects from my end. And quite frankly, I’d rather feel high than like shit. If you know what I mean.


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## JacobFloofWoof (Dec 15, 2020)

Parabellum3 said:


> So far I see no negative effects from my end. And quite frankly, I’d rather feel high than like shit. If you know what I mean.


Okay, I didn't know you had already taken it.


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## lionrock (Jan 14, 2021)

Parabellum3 said:


> So far I see no negative effects from my end. And quite frankly, I’d rather feel high than like shit. If you know what I mean.


I understand you perfectly, but what do you say about kratom white ? I can't understand whether he is related to this topic or not, my friend from Canada says that he is not. I am not aware of the events this is a new word for me, I understand that it has an effect like pu-erh tea. In general, where to find out the information that there are drugs, and what is not. Some of my friends think fast food is a brush drug. In general, if I take it like that, then in general I am for it, although I do not even drink alcohol . Alcohol is evil. If I could, I would ban anything that makes you aggressive.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 14, 2021)

I say the only drug you need is a good cheeseburger.


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## lionrock (Jan 14, 2021)

Mr. Fox said:


> I say the only drug you need is a good cheeseburger.


i like Marijuana will this be the answer ?


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## лОРИк (Jan 14, 2021)

I'm a fucking addict. My drug is computer games. Congratulate me (or kill me better).


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 14, 2021)

lionrock said:


> i like Marijuana will this be the answer ?


the two drugs complement each other, making you even more hungry.


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## The_biscuits_532 (Jan 14, 2021)

Not for me, don't recommend them to others either (I'm boring as fuck though I don't even drink) but rehabilitation should be the focus for harder drug cases, rather than punishment (same for most crimes tbh, but like, the penalties for possession seem super excessive).

Stuff like weed? Sure, knock yourself out. From what I've seen nicotine is worse anyway.


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## The_biscuits_532 (Jan 14, 2021)

Decriminalisation would also help with regulation. My step-uncle died from a shroom incident (although that may have been to do with eating shrooms as opposed to for drug purposes) 

So, to clarify, decriminalised to help with regulation and ideally institutions (think AA) should be set up to deal with severe addiction.


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## MaetheDragon (Jan 15, 2021)

I mean, I’m not too keen on taking drugs myself, but I see no harm in others doing it as long as they know the risks, and do them responsibly. Treat it like alcohol, basically. Don’t do drugs and drive- all of that common sense stuff. I think regulating reckless behavior is more important than just being arrested on the spot for using recreational drugs, and it’s no secret that we’d largely benefit from reducing already huge prison populations if we decriminalized the drugs themselves.

So, yeah- I’m not that opposed to recreational drugs. I just hope people realize that they’re responsible for their actions when they decide to do them.


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## aomagrat (Jan 15, 2021)

Drugs ain't my bag.  Except for alcohol and caffeine, gotta have those.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jan 15, 2021)

Caffeine only for me.  I hate alcohol, unlike the rest of my family, and have never been in a place or job where I could try weed or shrooms without serious consequences.

I probably won't touch them even in retirement as I know I completely lack restraint (the reason I limit my drinking so much).

When it comes to others, I have to stay distant from any use due to the aforementioned consequences scenario.  Beyond that?  I'm more worried about after-behaviors than the actual use.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 16, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Caffeine only for me.  I hate alcohol, unlike the rest of my family, and have never been in a place or job where I could try weed or shrooms without serious consequences.
> 
> I probably won't touch them even in retirement as I know I completely lack restraint (the reason I limit my drinking so much).
> 
> When it comes to others, I have to stay distant from any use due to the aforementioned consequences scenario.  Beyond that?  I'm more worried about after-behaviors than the actual use.



With illegal drugs like cannabis or magic mushrooms you'd never be sure what you were actually purchasing anyway, so it could result in accidental poisoning. 

This was one of the main things that surprised me about people taking drugs in college. They think they took cannabis or mdma, but at the end of the day they only have a stranger's word that that's what they took.


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## lolcox (Jan 17, 2021)

I'm a fan of marijuana, and that's about it.

This said, if we in the USA took an approach more like Portugal with regard to drugs, I think we'd do better as a country. My state of residence is about to start decriminalization of more drugs, with offers of help and recovery instead of jail time. Kinda like Portugal.


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## Mambi (Jan 17, 2021)

lolcox said:


> I'm a fan of marijuana, and that's about it.
> 
> This said, if we in the USA took an approach more like Portugal with regard to drugs, I think we'd do better as a country. My state of residence is about to start decriminalization of more drugs, with offers of help and recovery instead of jail time. Kinda like Portugal.



Look to your north for guidance (Canada)! We have a very good handle on it currently...


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## Miles Marsalis (Jan 17, 2021)

I'd say avoid recreational drugs altogether; they're a temporary escape from your problems and money you're spending on them can be better spend somewhere else. 

Also, watch out about getting addicted to painkillers because that is still a crisis in this country.


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## Rassah (Jan 17, 2021)

"What are your thoughts on drugs?"

Thoughts like, "My paws are making rainbows!"


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## Punji (Jan 17, 2021)

Mambi said:


> Look to your north for guidance (Canada)! We have a very good handle on it currently...


*Swells with opioid crisis*


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## Mambi (Jan 17, 2021)

Punji said:


> *Swells with opioid crisis*


Nothing is perfect, but I was referring to weed legalization. Since we're doing the exact same thing as the rest of the world with opiods, we'd naturally have the same problems in that area I guess.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 17, 2021)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I'd say avoid recreational drugs altogether; they're a temporary escape from your problems and money you're spending on them can be better spend somewhere else.


I wouldn’t assume that the only reason someone might use recreational drugs is escapism. If, say, you happen to be someone for whom a particular substance enhances your bedroom activities, there’s an argument for it being no worse an expenditure than, say, adult toys.

(I’m also not entirely convinced that temporary relief from long-term worries can’t be healthy; goodness knows I could use a day off from all my anxieties once in a while.)

That’s not to say drugs are an unadulterated positive, far from. Some are more harmful than others, and obviously addiction is not something to strive for. Deliberately getting someone addicted is something I wouldn’t  so much mind remaining illegal in a situation where drug use is otherwise reclassified as a health issue. But practically every hobby or pastime has aspects of escapism/distraction from other issues, and many or most involve some money being spent sooner or later. Don’t spend money you can’t afford to be without, but don’t court guilt over every penny spent on something frivolous, either, yanno?


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## Miles Marsalis (Jan 18, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> I wouldn’t assume that the only reason someone might use recreational drugs is escapism. If, say, you happen to be someone for whom a particular substance enhances your bedroom activities, there’s an argument for it being no worse an expenditure than, say, adult toys.
> 
> (I’m also not entirely convinced that temporary relief from long-term worries can’t be healthy; goodness knows I could use a day off from all my anxieties once in a while.)
> 
> That’s not to say drugs are an unadulterated positive, far from. Some are more harmful than others, and obviously addiction is not something to strive for. Deliberately getting someone addicted is something I wouldn’t  so much mind remaining illegal in a situation where drug use is otherwise reclassified as a health issue. But practically every hobby or pastime has aspects of escapism/distraction from other issues, and many or most involve some money being spent sooner or later. Don’t spend money you can’t afford to be without, but don’t court guilt over every penny spent on something frivolous, either, yanno?


Fair point about recreational drug not being purely for escapism; in the past, the people I knew who used drugs generally used them for that reason. However, I do know a few acquaintances who use such drugs for the reason you mentioned, but they didn't come to mind since I'm not that close with them. I definitely say that escapism is one of the primary drivers for the opioid epidemic here in addition to the obviousness addictive qualities of those pharmaceuticals which the companies that produced them lied about and the fact many people took those drugs assuming they were less addictive than in reality only to fall down the addiction spiral.

I have a minor disagreement about them being no worse an expenditure than adult toys. Recreational drugs can have major or minor side effects which the user needs to be aware of in the short term and long term, where as adult toys, to my knowledge, do not. 

I also do not begrudge people frivolous purchases, but people need to be aware what they are buying, especially when in comes to drugs.


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## ManicTherapsid (Jan 18, 2021)




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## Fallowfox (Jan 18, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> I wouldn’t assume that the only reason someone might use recreational drugs is escapism. If, say, you happen to be someone for whom a particular substance enhances your bedroom activities, there’s an argument for it being no worse an expenditure than, say, adult toys.
> 
> (I’m also not entirely convinced that temporary relief from long-term worries can’t be healthy; goodness knows I could use a day off from all my anxieties once in a while.)
> 
> That’s not to say drugs are an unadulterated positive, far from. Some are more harmful than others, and obviously addiction is not something to strive for. Deliberately getting someone addicted is something I wouldn’t  so much mind remaining illegal in a situation where drug use is otherwise reclassified as a health issue. But practically every hobby or pastime has aspects of escapism/distraction from other issues, and many or most involve some money being spent sooner or later. Don’t spend money you can’t afford to be without, but don’t court guilt over every penny spent on something frivolous, either, yanno?



Using drugs to avoid worries has many faces I suppose. 

A glass of wine to relax after a difficult day in the office is probably not going to do somebody any harm for example and I'm sure none of us would view a bottle of red every once in a while as a waste of money, but for alcoholics the situation's different. 

Ofc with any illicit drug, it could turn out that it's actually cut with washing powder.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 18, 2021)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I definitely say that escapism is one of the primary drivers for the opioid epidemic here in addition to the obviousness addictive qualities of those pharmaceuticals which the companies that produced them lied about and the fact many people took those drugs assuming they were less addictive than in reality only to fall down the addiction spiral.


No argument there, especially on the point of addiction; that’s why _all_ addiction needs to be treated as a health issue, rather than a criminal issue. When physical pain gets involved (as is often though not always the case for the opioids in question, I believe? (EDIT: Realized this was ambiguous; what I meant to say was I believe the entry to addiction to painkillers to my understanding tends to be an initial legitimate prescription for physical pain)), the line for what constitutes escapism also gets a bit blurry.



Miles Marsalis said:


> I have a minor disagreement about them being no worse an expenditure than adult toys. Recreational drugs can have major or minor side effects which the user needs to be aware of in the short term and long term, where as adult toys, to my knowledge, do not.


To clarify I was speaking specifically about the spending-money-on-pleasure (in the wide sense, though for the particular example it happens to also apply in a more narrow sense) aspect. Being an informed consumer, so to speak, is 100% vital, as is knowing your own body and how you specifically react to a given substance. (As an aside, adult toys, used incorrectly, absolutely can be associated with risk; it’s not entirely uncommon for people to show up in the ER needing... assistance... after *ahem* losing a toy.)



Miles Marsalis said:


> I also do not begrudge people frivolous purchases, but people need to be aware what they are buying, especially when in comes to drugs.


Yeah, I was having a bad day (woo headaches/migraines!) and came down too strong on that one, sorry. The point I should have spent more time making, instead, is that escapism and distraction from life sucking is a sliding scale, and recreational drug use can land on many points on that scale as can practically any hobby. I certainly spent most of yesterday playing computer games specifically to take my mind off things. As @Fallowfox rightly points out, illicit drugs absolutely come with a giant “buyer beware,” some of it specifically _because_ they’re illegal.


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## Kuuro (Jan 19, 2021)

What interests me the most is the prominent distaste for drugs in this community. I'm unsure if it's a statistical disproportion or if the anti-drug voice is simply loud, but it has me very curious of where the overlap is between furry psychology and opinions on drugs.

I used to "smoke weed errday" for a couple years but it started sparking anxiety or putting my attention inward which makes it a hit/miss substance to consume in a social setting. These days if I take it, it's when I'm alone playing some music, drawing, or relaxing with games. It's recreationally legal and regulated where I live and thus perfectly safe to consume. The taxes collected for it also are funneled into mental health funds and addiction rehabilitation facilities.

Since my first layoff from work I've started habitually drinking alcohol. I've grown quite fond of the effects but there are plenty of studies pointing toward damage to the body so it's something I need to tone down.

There's plenty of research pointing to the negative effects abusing of synthetic drugs like meth, heroin, and not-prescribed pharmaceuticals like opioid painkillers and adderall. Those are not compounds I'd advise taking and I'm not interested in taking them myself.

Psychedelics, primarily psilocybin (magic mushrooms), are an intriguing one. Recent research suggests psilocybin consumption can actually _be healthy_ for your brain under specific circumstances. It sparks neurogenesis (formation of new neurons), increases visual acuity and even cognitive ability. Statistically it's also (again, just with the small amount of research that's been done so far), by FAR the most successful treatment for PTSD with the lowest reported side effects compared to any synthetic pharmaceutical. It's also is nearly impossible to overdose to a life-threatening point, and has extremely low reported addicts. In fact, users who've consumed them, even after a positive experience, report a _lack_ of desire to take them again until weeks, months, or years have passed, if they ever want it again. They have a tendancy to be a one-and-done compound.

It does, however, alter your consciousness, and like any mind-altering substance there have been cases with patients who were harmed or needed psychiatric aid after consumption. Research _does_ suggest these cases usually involve a mix of other drugs, but it doesn't dismiss the possibility and the risk of consumption, especially if the user is not in a controlled environment with professional aid.

But just for the record, this is all simply research that interests me. I'm not under the impression that _"everyone should take psychedelics!" _I've taken them personally and have really been opened up to new ideas, but I've also been hurt badly by them and even sent myself to the ER out of panic. Also, they do not work the same in everyone, as the human mind is very complex and all individuals are different. I just support the growth of humanity, and if there's something to be studied without ill-intent to any living being, I'm into it. For science!

EDIT: Here's a couple sources for the research I was talking about. And a study posted by WIRED.
*REMEMBER *these are STUDIES and not definitive. I don't want to to be overly cautious but I've tried talking about this subject objectively in the past and there's always a group who responds with anger. It's just science... there's nobody telling you to take drugs 

LINK1: 
	

			Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity
		

LINK2:


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## Miles Marsalis (Jan 19, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> No argument there, especially on the point of addiction; that’s why _all_ addiction needs to be treated as a health issue, rather than a criminal issue. When physical pain gets involved (as is often though not always the case for the opioids in question, I believe? (EDIT: Realized this was ambiguous; what I meant to say was I believe the entry to addiction to painkillers to my understanding tends to be an initial legitimate prescription for physical pain)), the line for what constitutes escapism also gets a bit blurry.
> 
> 
> To clarify I was speaking specifically about the spending-money-on-pleasure (in the wide sense, though for the particular example it happens to also apply in a more narrow sense) aspect. Being an informed consumer, so to speak, is 100% vital, as is knowing your own body and how you specifically react to a given substance. (As an aside, adult toys, used incorrectly, absolutely can be associated with risk; it’s not entirely uncommon for people to show up in the ER needing... assistance... after *ahem* losing a toy.)
> ...


My initial response was probably a little harsh and I missed the point you made about adult toys, so no worries. 

It's basically high time we shifted focus from punishment on drug offenses to rehabilitation and preventing relapses, at least here in the United States. That is definitely another driver for the opioid crisis here.


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## ConorHyena (Jan 19, 2021)

Drug money is the main financial driver behind organised crime, and a lot of this is down to the criminalisation of drugs. 

If we legalise it, we'd hit the mob where it hurts them the most, their wallets.


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## Miles Marsalis (Jan 19, 2021)

ConorHyena said:


> Drug money is the main financial driver behind organised crime, and a lot of this is down to the criminalisation of drugs.
> 
> If we legalise it, we'd hit the mob where it hurts them the most, their wallets.


That is part of it, but illegal recreational drugs can pose different levels of hazard to a user's health and come with different levels of addictiveness. It is one thing to decriminalize the medicinal and recreational use of cannabis; it is more difficult to decriminalize heroin because that is a much harder drug, that is far more addictive and more much immediately dangerous to one's health.


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## ConorHyena (Jan 19, 2021)

Miles Marsalis said:


> That is part of it, but illegal recreational drugs can pose different levels of hazard to a user's health and come with different levels of addictiveness. It is one thing to decriminalize the medicinal and recreational use of cannabis; it is more difficult to decriminalize heroin because that is a much harder drug, that is far more addictive and more much immediately dangerous to one's health.


It is, but getting the broad brush here - if people know what it does and still take it, it's their problem, not mine. You can legally buy brake fluid and drink it or eat fat food till your morbidly obese.. etc, that's your own business.


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## Punji (Jan 19, 2021)

The No Fun Allowed racc is here to rain some more on the drugged-out parade of substance use, sorry everyone. Repent heathens! 

Personally I don't feel the reduction of organized crime is a legitimate motivator for the legalization of illicit drugs. To be blunt as long as it's taxed it's going to be sold illegally as well. Anecdotally, my father is a heavy marijuana user and still prefers to buy it from his biker buddies than from one of the dispensaries in the small town he lives in.

As for decriminalization for health purposes, addiction can be treated as a heath concern without allowing for it. Monitored usage can be legal with obtainment simultaneously illegal.

Simply legalizing a drug doesn't solve every problem with it and often causes many more. Increasing use increases health complications and drains on society.

And to add a little bit of extra spiciness to this, unpopular opinion: Heathcare should not be provided at no cost to those who caused their own problems (where applicable). Smoked a joint or five every day of your life for 25 years? Pay for your own oxygen tanks. Ate so excessively for so long you'll die without medical intervention? Hope you have some money saved up for that surgery. Huffed paint and glue and now you can't work? Better hope some charity or relative takes pity on you. I am ready for your rage.

Lastly, most people cannot be trusted with moderation or healthy educated use. Alcoholism and obesity are rampant health issues already, so is nicotine addiction and prescription opioids. And how many people are completely addicted to caffeine? What is and isn't safe and moderate use varies from person to person, but all too often people go too far or flat out don't care. Recreational substance use is almost always irresponsible, in my opinion.

And of course, I do not think anything less of a person who drinks, smokes, or otherwise consumes recreational drugs or alcohol purely on the basis of the usage. I don't like it but I can still like the person. Don't take my opinions as a personal attack please.


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## Kuuro (Jan 19, 2021)

Punji said:


> The No Fun Allowed racc is here to rain some more on the drugged-out parade of substance use, sorry everyone. Repent heathens!
> 
> Personally I don't feel the reduction of organized crime is a legitimate motivator for the legalization of illicit drugs. To be blunt as long as it's taxed it's going to be sold illegally as well. Anecdotally, my father is a heavy marijuana user and still prefers to buy it from his biker buddies than from one of the dispensaries in the small town he lives in.
> 
> ...


That's a sensible point of view. I suppose the difference lies between those who prioritize individual self-maintenance and those who prioritize individual second chances (AND possess the willingness to make group sacrifices for them). In a perfect world where nobody makes mistakes, the obvious solution to the drug problem is the former. But, people are stupid, and they often don't realize what they've done until the consequences come in. IMO it's easier to make that mistake than one may think, especially of you have a predisposition to addiction, a concept the victim likely won't even understand until they're in their twenties (or later?), an age where they may already be developing health problems from an early drug investment. At that point, it wouldn't be "fair" that disabled people can get help but the addict can't because people think they were just a plain idiot, when in reality their mind was built to seek pleasure far more than the average person.

But, life isn't fair. People are born without legs. Even though we've developed a docile civilization and those people don't have to worry about getting killed by a pack of wolves anymore, they still don't have legs. Even if an addict is made from developmental issues, they can still carry their own weight. So I see your point, it's just more right-wing than I usually carry.

What would be nice is if there were an optional tax, the same way being an organ donor is optional. When you get your W4 at a new job you can "claim for others" or something, so all the empaths can support their cause and those who don't want their finances hindered by everyone else's problems don't have to.


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## Lucyfur (Jan 19, 2021)

Punji said:


> The No Fun Allowed racc is here to rain some more on the drugged-out parade of substance use, sorry everyone. Repent heathens!
> 
> Personally I don't feel the reduction of organized crime is a legitimate motivator for the legalization of illicit drugs. To be blunt as long as it's taxed it's going to be sold illegally as well. Anecdotally, my father is a heavy marijuana user and still prefers to buy it from his biker buddies than from one of the dispensaries in the small town he lives in.
> 
> ...






You know I am glad you made it perfectly telegraphed and clear that you are trying to bait things because really it saves me from having to waste my time on explaining how far off you are on certain issues and how you lack the scope of view to see things from a larger lens like actual applications of certain programs and the statistics of benefit to areas and such as well as the more intricate details of the medical aspects you wanted to drag on in just to be "extra spicy"


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 19, 2021)

From a health and human rights perspective (discussion from an organized crime etc perspective feels like it’s flirting a bit too closely with politics) there’s a few policy points that would in all likelihood vastly improve the system:

- Treat addiction as a health issue rather than a crime issue.
- Expunge pure possession convictions, as well as prostitution/loitering convictions and similar (which have a not insignificant degree of... “comorbidity”)
- Treat sale of tainted drugs the same as you would sale of tainted pharmaceuticals.
- Open safe injection sites where “heavy” drugs can be provided by the state free or essentially at cost as long as they are consumed on the premises (where health care staff can be on hand in case of an overdose or other adverse reaction). Combine this with no-pressure access to rehab for users who do want to kick their addiction.

Variations on that last point _have been tried_, and it turns out most people don’t _want_ to be addicted, but addiction is generally going to be a vicious cycle unless you have the good fortune to be sitting on piles of cash from the word go (and can be so even then). 

I can to some degree understand the _impulse_ to push for social health care to not cover addiction treatment and/or health issues stemming from what is perceived as lifestyle choices, but I think any such regulations will more or less inevitably strike harder against vulnerable populations. It’s also at odds with the idea that addiction is at its core a health issue - if choosing to stop being addicted was easy, rehab facilities wouldn’t be a thing. With a number of intoxicants, alcohol included, going cold turkey without medical supervision can _kill_ a long-time addict just from withdrawal symptoms.

A relevant anecdote was shared with me the other day: after surgery (I think wisdom teeth?) an individual was prescribed Percocet for post-op pain. It ended up not doing a whole lot for the pain, but by the time this person realized as much, they’d already hit the point of budding addiction. As soon as it clicked that their impulse to take it was addiction speaking they got rid of what they had left, but I think it highlights how insidious addiction can be; this individual had the fortune to be able to get out in time, but if they hadn’t? I have a hard time calling that a choice of theirs, and punishing them for it makes no more sense than, say, refusing to cover a runner’s stress fractures.


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## TyraWadman (Jan 19, 2021)

Punji said:


> The No Fun Allowed racc is here to rain some more on the drugged-out parade of substance use, sorry everyone. Repent heathens!
> 
> Personally I don't feel the reduction of organized crime is a legitimate motivator for the legalization of illicit drugs. To be blunt as long as it's taxed it's going to be sold illegally as well. Anecdotally, my father is a heavy marijuana user and still prefers to buy it from his biker buddies than from one of the dispensaries in the small town he lives in.
> 
> ...



I can agree with your sentiment to some extent. It frustrates me to no end that I've gone through life without coffee, drugs/alcohol abuse, not having kids/pets or any other luxuries that I can't afford, but keeping up with said responsibilities yield no long-term rewards and don't promise a long, fulfilling life. I don't have a say in where my taxes go, and while people are listening to the radio or going to their cottages over the summer, I'm drinking unsafe water and walking through -40 weather just because someone else wanted to open up a park or re-pave a road because it had one bump. If I could choose to let my taxes go to bettering a transit system or supporting a drone that can't go a day without getting his dicc wett and has 20 baby momma's, *I'm picking the transit*. 

The only obvious downside I could see is determining who has or hasn't done enough for themselves and weighing whether or not there were exceptions that could pardon them from/grant them assisted living. And we all know that any type of authority can be abused.


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## Punji (Jan 19, 2021)

Kuuro said:


> That's a sensible point of view. I suppose the difference lies between those who prioritize individual self-maintenance and those who prioritize individual second chances (AND posess the willingness to make group sacrifices for them). In a perfect world where nobody makes mistakes, the obvious solution to the drug problem is the former. But, people are stupid, and they often don't realize what they've done until the consequences come in. IMO it's easier to make that mistake than one may think, especially of you have a predisposition to addiction, a concept the victim likely won't even understand until they're in their twenties (or later?), an age where they may already be developing health problems from an early drug investment. At that point, it wouldn't be "fair" that disabled people can get help but they can't because people think they were just a plain idiot, when in reality their mind was built to seek pleasure far more than the average person.
> 
> But, life isn't fair. People are born without legs. Even though we've developed a docile civilization and those people don't have to worry about getting killed by a pack of wolves anymore, they still don't have legs. Even if an addict is made from developmental issues, they can still carry their own weight. So I see your point, it's just more right-wing than I usually carry.
> 
> What would be nice is if there were an optional tax, the same way being an organ donor is optional. When you get your W4 at a new job you can "claim for others" or something, so all the empaths can support their cause and those who don't want their finances hindered by everyone else's problems don't have to.


I dunno, minors aren't even supposed to have access to current legal substances. They might be less able to understand the consequences but they still create their own situations. Personally I was never one of the cool kids so no one ever offered me drugs or alcohol, but I've had a distaste for it for a very long time. I know it's very easy to pat myself on the back and say "I didn't, why couldn't anyone else," but still, we're told about it from an early age about how bad drugs and alcohol can mess things up for us. (Not super relevant but interesting, I used to know a kid in school who was like 12 years old and smoked, he'd pay homeless men to buy him cigarettes, or stole them from his parents.)

Preaching to the choir that life ain't fair.  It's not something I'd enjoy implementing if I ruled the world. I know first hand people with disabilities, including those caused by heavy substance use, can still be productive, but they're never going to produce enough in taxes to cover their own needs. I'd really hope this would be enough of a fire under the rear to help motivate people to kick their habits and would save millions on healthcare costs. It's not to harm the victims of addiction, but to help everyone else. If my word was law would I actually leave them all high and dry? If they honestly couldn't afford it, probably not, but most would be expected to pay _something_. The money saved could immediately be used elsewhere if not going straight back into the healthcare system for the many needs remaining.

I do really like this idea. However it'd be hard to find anyone willing to give up a higher percentage of their wage to help people who created most of their own problems. If it worked, perfect though.



Lucyfur said:


> View attachment 99573
> 
> You know I am glad you made it perfectly telegraphed and clear that you are trying to bait things because really it saves me from having to waste my time on explaining how far off you are on certain issues and how you lack the scope of view to see things from a larger lens like actual applications of certain programs and the statistics of benefit to areas and such as well as the more intricate details of the medical aspects you wanted to drag on in just to be "extra spicy"


Ah my dear, I was half expecting you to say something. Just a hunch you might have a dog in this fight, eh?

I think you might find my language serves to demonstrate I know exactly how unpopular my opinions on drugs are, showing that I understand what others believe might not be exactly the same as what I do. "Extra spicy" indeed, for it is few and far in between that I'd meet someone entirely supportive of my healthcare policies. 

How surprising it is that you're having trouble understanding the concept of differentiating beliefs! I'd never have expected such a turn of events from the likes of you, friend.


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## Kuuro (Jan 20, 2021)

Punji said:


> I dunno, minors aren't even supposed to have access to current legal substances. They might be less able to understand the consequences but they still create their own situations. Personally I was never one of the cool kids so no one ever offered me drugs or alcohol, but I've had a distaste for it for a very long time. I know it's very easy to pat myself on the back and say "I didn't, why couldn't anyone else," but still, we're told about it from an early age about how bad drugs and alcohol can mess things up for us. (Not super relevant but interesting, I used to know a kid in school who was like 12 years old and smoked, he'd pay homeless men to buy him cigarettes, or stole them from his parents.)
> 
> Preaching to the choir that life ain't fair.  It's not something I'd enjoy implementing if I ruled the world. I know first hand people with disabilities, including those caused by heavy substance use, can still be productive, but they're never going to produce enough in taxes to cover their own needs. I'd really hope this would be enough of a fire under the rear to help motivate people to kick their habits and would save millions on healthcare costs. It's not to harm the victims of addiction, but to help everyone else. If my word was law would I actually leave them all high and dry? If they honestly couldn't afford it, probably not, but most would be expected to pay _something_. The money saved could immediately be used elsewhere if not going straight back into the healthcare system for the many needs remaining.
> 
> ...


I too hope that, whatever policies do get set in place, these people can develop the motivation to live healthier lives. Hell, _I_ need to do that. I have made progress at least... But it's absolutely possible for even the roughest lives to turn clean, productive, and happy. I just think a large amount may not make the discovery without a lending hand *shrug*. I do believe most people have more control over their lives than they realize, it's only when you decide something is impossible that it truly becomes so.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Jan 20, 2021)

I have mixed feelings on the subject now, and while I am against illegal substances like meth and heroin, there are other drugs that I feel that while used recreationally, also have medical benefits. I did research and found out the chemical, nicotine, by itself helped Alzheimer's patients with memory, despite the unfortunate addictive properties. ==> Study finds nicotine safe, helps in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's (tampabay.com)

I'm well aware of the dangers of experimenting with the substance, because I was a former smoker, and I'd do almost anything before having to go through the process of quitting it again. My advice, don't start the habit if you don't want to be addicted, even if it's just vaping. Quitting such drug addictions is a long and unpleasant process.

As for marijuana, I understand there are some connections to it being a cultural thing with some groups like Rastafarians and spiritual communities, so I don't want to intervene with their practices, and I'm well aware of it's health benefits, both of these reasons are ones as to why I support it's legalization. However, I myself would not partake in it. My Bipolar and ADHD medications would react dramatically if it was introduced into my system I suspect. Caffeine alone sometimes does strange things to me.

tldr; There are drugs I don't support, and ones I'm okay with, and for the ones I'm okay with, I probably won't be taking.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 21, 2021)

Punji said:


> The No Fun Allowed racc is here to rain some more on the drugged-out parade of substance use, sorry everyone. Repent heathens!
> 
> Personally I don't feel the reduction of organized crime is a legitimate motivator for the legalization of illicit drugs. To be blunt as long as it's taxed it's going to be sold illegally as well. Anecdotally, my father is a heavy marijuana user and still prefers to buy it from his biker buddies than from one of the dispensaries in the small town he lives in.
> 
> ...



I think these are political opinions.

I'm only going to comment on one thing, which is that documenting the health choices of citizens, in order to make moral judgements about how much they should pay for care, would require a lot of spying on citizens' habits (I'm not really certain how insurers do this, because extra charges for unhealthy but concealable habits insentivises customers to lie on applications). There are many grey areas too. A person who never wears a face mask may contract coronavirus and end up in hospital, but it is unlikely that doctors would be able to determine if their individual decision caused the infection- and the person who is infected may have a solid case that they were misled by a politician who told them not to worry about the virus.
Would punishing this person achieve anything?  Probably not.

Most governments already discourage unhealthy choices by placing taxes on unhealthy goods like tobacco, that are used to fund public health initiatives. This avoids having to evaluate people's personal situations and make very difficult moral assessments.


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## Punji (Jan 21, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> I think these are political opinions.
> 
> I'm only going to comment on one thing, which is that documenting the health choices of citizens, in order to make moral judgements about how much they should pay for care, would require a lot of spying on citizens' habits (I'm not really certain how insurers do this, because extra charges for unhealthy but concealable habits insentivises customers to lie on applications). There are many grey areas too. A person who never wears a face mask may contract coronavirus and end up in hospital, but it is unlikely that doctors would be able to determine if their individual decision caused the infection- and the person who is infected may have a solid case that they were misled by a politician who told them not to worry about the virus.
> Would punishing this person achieve anything?  Probably not.
> ...


How is recreational drug use and its effects on public health political? This is something which effects everyone regardless of political affiliations or government interventions. Yet you mention not wearing masks due to being mislead by a politician? 

It's not necessarily about the morality of it. Sure one can have an opinion on what is or isn't moral and immoral in the situation, but the root of it is purely practical. Lowering financial drains on a society through healthcare costs will benefit almost everyone within that society, as the money saved can be poured into other aspects or even right back into the healthcare system for other benefits.

How would this be applied? I personally imagine it along these lines: An individual comes to a doctor and it is found his or her lungs are dying and cancerous. From here it is only natural to determine the cause, and now one would also consider if this could have been knowingly prevented. AKA, are the lungs blacked and dying from tar buildup from a product with health warnings covering the entire package, or are there asbestos needles embedded in the tissue everywhere? This is often a problem for people going into old buildings frequently, such as firefighters being exposed to old burning buildings. Furthermore long-term substance use will most often have accompanying symptoms. One either made the conscious decision to use the drug (in this case nicotine cigarettes) over a long period of time or other suffered a terrible workplace hazard and is at no fault of their own.

Grey areas can be removed or minimized by asking if the medical incident occurred through wilful action or unfortunate circumstances beyond an individual's control. Morbid obesity and heart problems diabetes, smoking and heart problems lung cancer, drinking and heart problems liver disease, et cetera. Breast cancer with no discernible cause? Free healthcare, no actions were taken with the known risk of the cancer developing.

It's not about passing judgment or punishing individuals for legal consumption. It's a method of encouraging the public to exercise moderation while dramatically reducing the stress on healthcare, with the end goal being the betterment of society as a whole.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 21, 2021)

Punji said:


> How is recreational drug use and its effects on public health political? This is something which effects everyone regardless of political affiliations or government interventions. Yet you mention not wearing masks due to being mislead by a politician?
> 
> It's not necessarily about the morality of it. Sure one can have an opinion on what is or isn't moral and immoral in the situation, but the root of it is purely practical. Lowering financial drains on a society through healthcare costs will benefit almost everyone within that society, as the money saved can be poured into other aspects or even right back into the healthcare system for other benefits.
> 
> ...



Opinions on drug policy and public health provision policies are political. 
If I say 'I think tobacco should be illegal for people under 21', that is a political statement because I'm advocating a policy. 

I think we should be very careful about viewing people's healthcare costs as a financial drain on society. 
In the situation where somebody is a smoker and they develop lung cancer, there are few situations where a doctor would be able to categorically say that cigarettes were the cause of the tumour. 
and the debilitating effects of people with lung tumours being left untreated or indebted as a result of medical costs may not be positive for society. 

Encouraging people to judge others in this way may be quite negative for society as well. An overweight person may have Cushing's syndrome for example, but in a world where fat people are viewed as a drain on society's resources and asked to pay extra for operations, that person could face prejudice.


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## the sleepiest kitty (Jan 21, 2021)

They're only bad if you are addicted to them and you steal from your loved ones just to buy more and get high again. Or if you OD and die or almost die. Or if they cause permanent brain damage.

Drugs like marijuana are perfectly fine, I've used it before. Good times uwu

Edit: I know addiction isn't a choice. I'm not calling people who are addicted bad for stealing. I know they cannot help it. My ex and his sister had to go through withdrawals just to get off that crap. I apologise for my post seeming insensitive. Sometimes I don't explain myself thoroughly and it's an awful habit that I have.


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## Punji (Jan 21, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Opinions on drug policy and public health provision policies are political.
> If I say 'I think tobacco should be illegal for people under 21', that is a political statement because I'm advocating a policy.
> 
> I think we should be very careful about viewing people's healthcare costs as a financial drain on society.
> ...


Well _technically_ I'm not giving an opinion on health policies, I'm _suggesting_ one.  Really though, you're singling me out, and it's kind of quite clear. I'm not the first one in this thread to talk about more than just the chemicals themselves.

 I absolutely disagree. As someone who's spent multiple weeks in hospital stay under constant high-flow IV drip and the recipient copious blood and urine testing equipment and bandages, there's nothing at all unfair or derogatory about calling medical costs a drain. Everything costs money and that money is a resource which could have been used for other people instead. I didn't want to be in the hospital and I didn't ask for any of the treatments or testing beyond what I physically needed. A lot was gone and given to me by my caretakers. I cost them a lot but I never meant to or wanted to, and they were happy to help me just the same. I had to agree to more blood testing after I got home for a few days to be released early. It's not meant as an insult to say it's a drain, it's just fact.

If someone was enough of a smoker that a doctor could tell by looking at them, and they had lung cancer, I think that's a fair sale. If you read my previous posts, I did say I wouldn't personally leave someone without treatment or the entire bill. They'll get treatment no mater what, as long as they're a citizen as is now in nations with public healthcare. But if they can, they'll pay at least a portion of what they themselves caused.

Please don't strawman me Fallow. I said already unrelated conditions are no one's fault. If a morbidly obese person suffered from a condition unrelated to their weight they'd get free treatment just the same as everyone else. If anything people ought to feel less stigma towards obese people in hospitals because they'd know if the public paid for it the person is an innocent victim.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 21, 2021)

Punji said:


> Well _technically_ I'm not giving an opinion on health policies, I'm _suggesting_ one.  Really though, you're singling me out, and it's kind of quite clear. I'm not the first one in this thread to talk about more than just the chemicals themselves.
> 
> I absolutely disagree. As someone who's spent multiple weeks in hospital stay under constant high-flow IV drip and the recipient copious blood and urine testing equipment and bandages, there's nothing at all unfair or derogatory about calling medical costs a drain. Everything costs money and that money is a resource which could have been used for other people instead. I didn't want to be in the hospital and I didn't ask for any of the treatments or testing beyond what I physically needed. A lot was gone and given to me by my caretakers. I cost them a lot but I never meant to or wanted to, and they were happy to help me just the same. I had to agree to more blood testing after I got home for a few days to be released early. It's not meant as an insult to say it's a drain, it's just fact.
> 
> ...



I've mentioned I feel the thread topic is political a couple of times before- on page 7 for example. 

It's a subject people have strong political views about- and quite understandably I suppose.  I'm glad that your medical treatment was evidently successful, or at the least that it came to an end.


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## Rayd (Jan 21, 2021)

any mere reference of them makes me deeply uncomfortable. the fact that they're as normalized as they are is disappointing to me. especially seeing as how people can casually bring them up to talk and joke about without consideration of how people feel about them and its just an established socially acceptable thing to do. any time anyone does that to me i lose all interest in speaking to them any longer, and if it's online i leave them on read for a really long time lol. 

don't get me started on people that make it their entire identity.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 21, 2021)

It’s sad to see how willing some people are to call a stick a carrot. Addiction isn’t a choice. It may be the result of poor choices, to different degrees, but it damn well doesn’t reduce your value as a human being. I would never encourage someone to try highly addictive or otherwise dangerous substances, but I also think that the best way to treat people who are already past that line is with compassion.

Which absolutely is something that I can feel conflicted about. I’ve seen firsthand how people can use their addiction to get treatment that _they_ feel is getting off easy. However, I’d still rather those people get treated more kindly than they treat others, than that good people with a genuine problem that they _want_ help with are left high and dry.


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## Netanye Dakabi (Jan 25, 2021)

those who could handle being on drugs don't think they need them in their life.

those who think they should do drugs really couldn't handle it.


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## fernshiine (Jan 25, 2021)

I think weed is good for some people but not others and is subjective to the user. I 100% don't think weed (or anything) should be smoked or vaped, though! I'm against smoking and vaping for health reasons.

Obviously harmful drugs need to go, although prescribed drugs are another convo entirely. For anything prescribed they should be covered (since apparently the government of both Canada _and _the U.S have an endless amount to spend, given them recently saying they have _trillions_) so that they are accessible to _all people _who need them. I'm a marginalized person with debilitating migraines and headaches but right now cannot afford the medication my doctor wishes to prescribe. She is aware of that, though, so she gave me a trial version of it with three capsules in it until I see her again in May, which is amazingly helpful all things considering. I already used one a few nights ago when I was being kept by awake from the pain and nausea and it helped immensely. To think that I cannot get them to help my condition hurts a lot. 

I think harmful drugs need to go somehow, though. So many people die from them where I live it is so awful. 

And Idk how I feel about alcohol. I haven't tried any drugs other than medication and obviously painkillers but I have had, like, three glasses of alcohol in my life. I hated it. YUCK


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## SkyEagle (Jan 25, 2021)

If your responsible with them and don’t get addicted, then i’m cool with it. If your addicted then please get help.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jan 28, 2021)

Now that I think about this a bit more... when I say I'm averse to most drugs, I find it even difficult to have ordinary painkillers or even _prescriptions and/or vitamins_.  I don't know if it's a side effect from having to take antibiotics for years (rheumatic fever that I had when I was 2, but I was on antibiotics until I was 18!), or the fact that my family has been known to overwork themselves physically to the point where they use painkillers a lot (just the over-the-counter ones, but they're practically in constant pain even WITH them!), or if something about the sensation of taking pills is just off to me.

(The sensation is basically as if I'm swallowing hard candy without chewing or sucking, and yes, that is exactly as horrifying in MULTIPLE aspects as it sounds.)

If I really had to have medication I'd probably have to have it snuck into my food like people do when giving dogs medication.

Other than that I still stand by making sure you're prepared for the after-effects.  Would explain a couple bits of rave culture that's for sure.


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## .Antho (Jan 29, 2021)

Legalize all drugs, pull the power from under the multi-billion dollar international business that is drug trafficking, and provide greater resources for rehabilitation. Release the societal taboo, relieve the addicts aversion to getting help, being public about their problem. End the war on drugs, where has only proven time and time again that drugs has in fact dominated the war on drugs. It's a radical position to take, yes, but it's been observed to work elsewhere. People who want to do drugs will do drugs, it's up for us to decide whether or not they should be shot, killed, jumped, or die in an alleyway because of it. Whether they'll get help, or the taboo of consuming such things will be too great and they'd rather overdose than face the light.


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## TrishaCat (Jan 29, 2021)

smoke weed everyday


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## Fallowfox (Jan 29, 2021)

FunniValentine said:


> Legalize all drugs, pull the power from under the multi-billion dollar international business that is drug trafficking, and provide greater resources for rehabilitation. Release the societal taboo, relieve the addicts aversion to getting help, being public about their problem. End the war on drugs, where has only proven time and time again that drugs has in fact dominated the war on drugs. It's a radical position to take, yes, but it's been observed to work elsewhere. People who want to do drugs will do drugs, it's up for us to decide whether or not they should be shot, killed, jumped, or die in an alleyway because of it. Whether they'll get help, or the taboo of consuming such things will be too great and they'd rather overdose than face the light.



Some drug addiction also happens because people who have been given strong medicinal drugs are not provided with successful support to discontinue the drug- so they turn to alternative drugs as a replacement.
That's a large driver of the opioid pandemic in North America and the UK, and wider concentration on this care need could help prevent people ever trying illegal drugs.


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## .Antho (Jan 29, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Some drug addiction also happens because people who have been given strong medicinal drugs are not provided with successful support to discontinue the drug- so they turn to alternative drugs as a replacement.
> That's a large driver of the opioid pandemic in North America and the UK, and wider concentration on this care need could help prevent people ever trying illegal drugs.


This is incredibly true, and is typically involving opiates. The medical system should've recognized what they were doing to people a long time ago and worked to prevent such things from happening. I've seen the effects of this with my own eyes, and it's horrid. I would like to clarify on my past post that I personally don't _support _the use of hard drugs, such as methadones, cocaine or opiates, it's simply a measure I think is necessary to get people the help they need. Though I am a supporter of the recreational uses of marijuana and psychedelics, however.


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## Kyrick (Feb 4, 2021)

Have taken all but Ketamine in my 20's, but I got to the age where the interest wore off I guess. I don't _mind_ the occasional smoke and I'd love to go raving again with a disco biscuit, but... just the thought of sore muscles and the comedown puts the idea off. I think trying things like LSD and XTC was a good way to get some creative arts going in me.
I personally had more trouble with alcohol than anything else. Easy to get, hard to stop.

As for making drugs legal or decriminalizing them, I stand in the middle. It would be *much *safer for people to try them if they researched and knew what to expect if it was available from a licenced vendor. But the thought of making cocaine/speed even more accessible doesn't sit well with me especially seeing just how much of it is around in my town.

That said, in the UK, cannabis is now _available_ to prescribe for certain conditions, Epilepsy (which I have) is the main candidate, but no doctor wants to put their license under the scope if they prescribe it. We ain't changing fast over here


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## Dempeets (Feb 5, 2021)

Weed, shrooms, lsd. Stick to the psychedelics and you’ll be alright. Usually.


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## DrifterJellybean (Feb 7, 2021)

Hard pass.


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## Ramjet (Feb 7, 2021)

Dempeets said:


> Weed, shrooms, lsd. Stick to the psychedelics and you’ll be alright. Usually.


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## Simo (Feb 7, 2021)

One thing I notice is that the term 'drugs' is (too often) used in a very broad, sweeping way, as in all drugs MUST be BAD! But I think that in reality, it's a much more complex picture, and it's silly to dismiss weed in the same way that one might treat harder, physically addictive drugs, such as cocaine and opiates.

Also, I have noted that there's a good deal of cultural bias against weed, and this seems especially strong in the UK. I recall the (UK) government once commissioned a study on the relative harms of drugs. Alcohol was among the worst, and weed among the least. But despite this, laws in the UK celebrate booze, and crack down on weed. Why is this? At least in part due to the long British tradition of drinking, pubs, ales, and the way drinking is woven into British culture, up to and including the high degree of binge drinking, common in the UK. Weed, on the other hand, is more associated with 'outside' cultures, hippies and low-lifes, and seems to come in for harsh treatment, not so much based on fact, but longstanding cultural bias. It always amazes me how out of step the UK is, compared to other western nations, with its marijuana laws. Maybe if the Queen sparks up a joint on the telly, it'll change


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 7, 2021)

Simo said:


> One thing I notice is that the term 'drugs' is (too often) used in a very broad, sweeping way, as in all drugs MUST be BAD! But I think that in reality, it's a much more complex picture, and it's silly to dismiss weed in the same way that one might treat harder, physically addictive drugs, such as cocaine and opiates.


It doesn’t help that English uses “drugs” both for intoxicants and medicine. At the same time, that same frustrating language quirk has a point; what makes something a “bad drug” is more application than any inherent quality of the substance.

Anything has the potential to be a “bad drug,” if you’re using it in a way that harms yourself or others. What’s a drug of abuse for one person can be medication that allows another to lead a more normal life.


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