# Thoughts on metal's various sub-genres, intent, and other musings on the subject



## Sedit (Aug 14, 2010)

Okay...I confess.  This is me actually re-posting a rather long winded post from another old thread, which got locked due to it going way off course, before anybody could really muse upon this.  But it's rather long post that I presented alot of thoughts and ideas in, and upon rereading it, felt maybe it warranted it's own thread, as other metal fans here may be interested in what I have to say, and discuss it.  so, without further ado....my long winded rant, or whatever you wanna call it:

Black metal is also a sometimes hard to pin down genre. Theirs a big difference between the likes of Mayhem, Bathory, Burzum, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Covenant (or the Kovenent, depending what era of the band), Wolves In The Throneroom, Deathspell Omega, and so forth. even a casual listener should be able to tell these bands apart easily. Which is one of the things I love about it. Like the early-mid 80's thrash movement, theirs alot of divergence and personality to each band....each brings their own unique spin to the table (okay, and theirs a slew of copy cat bands as well, to go hand in hand with each subsequent bands pushing of the bounderies).

Some black metal, some fans may even hesitate to call black metal. I've heard Wolves in the Throneroom referred to as "post metal" for example (I never understood the whole 'post' prefix....okay....after WHAT exactly? And don't even get me started on the -core thing....."core" kinda meant something up til the late 90's...but after that it's become such an overused nebulous term that any real definition is pretty much lost). WITTR are definately black metal.

Why? Well, this brings me to my point in this discussion...ultimately, the difference in rock, to metal, and the various sub genres often has more to do with the approach and attitude, the feel, of the band, than it does more readily definable sonic elements. To say that Judas Priest or Black Sabbath arent metal is absurdly ignorant. These two bands, along with a group of others are largely responsible for creating the genre's foundations. As somebody once said, and I agree with, is that Sabbath brought the "heavy" and Priest brought the "metal"....listen to a few tracks from each band, and think about that statement...it actually makes sense.

Than also, don't forget bands who took it to the next level early on....Venom, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Celtic frost, Sepultura (those guys go back farther than you think...look up their early 80's releases Bestial Devastation, and Morbid Visions...who was THAT heavy and abrasive back than? Not many). Theres MANY, MANY more I can list.

Sure, metal gets more and more "extreme" as years go by, and each subsequent generation tries to outdo the previous. but it really doesn't make the early bands less heavy by comparison...just a different flavor, or attitude. One thing I see alot of is younger bands who arent even fully aware and educated in the roots of their own genre. Many younger bands seem to think metal really started with Pantera (which obviously it didn't...but yes, saying they were a great, and obviously highly influential band would be a gross understatement). I feel like alot of newer bands have lost sight of that spark and attitude that makes metal so great. So many bands seems to focus more and more on speedy chops, the 'ultimate breakdown' (really done to death now...breakdown we're originally about groove...but their so overdone and overused now, that I rarely hear the groove and impact of a well placed one anymore). Maybe I'm just showing my age (I'll be 30 in a few months *shivers*) but this is something I'm seeing alot of. Not to say their arent newer bands I don't like....theres quite a few great ones....Scar Symmetry, Hate Eternal, Skeleton Witch, Arsis, Kampfar, and others.

I admit, the whole sub-genre thing has gotten crazy. Like, the SLIGHTEST variance in approach warrants a new category these days. In some ways, I think that further reinforces an adherence to a formula or approach that may in the end stifle further creativity....pigeon-holing, as it's often called. I think many people aren't even AWARE of that impact.

Now, the upside of whole labeling thing is it DOES make things somewhat easier from a marketing standpoint. I know this all too well as I often struggle with what to label even the music I myself create. I mix so many elements of various metal genres, it doesn't really sit well within many of the more commonly accepted parameters. The upside is maybe, just maaaaaybe I've succeeded in creating something uniquely my own, the downside is this really makes it hard to pin down a target audience. I think many bands know thier target audience, and for better or worse, play to that. On some levels I envy that. On the other hand, I'm glad I'm not pigeon holed. Also...I'm also painfully aware that unique, and original doesn't automatically qualify something as good or breakthrough. And thats really for others to decide.

Shit...long post is loooong.....but metal is my life's passion. And not just death metal, or black metal, or doom metal, or thrash metal, or heavy metal, but bits and pieces of all of the above (though I strongly lean in the direction of black, doom, and old-school death metal in my own creative style...and in my listening thrash as well, but it doesn't come up as much in my actual song writing).

Bottom line: Labels are sometimes helpful, and sometimes not. In the end whats truly important is listening to and creating what moves YOU. It's all about attitude and heart (be it blackened or otherwise!)

(link to the original thread here for any context that may be lost here: http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/52086-Metal-Vs.-Rock )


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## Adelphos (Aug 15, 2010)

I completely agree. Labels are a nice starting point, as there is usually a big difference between power metal and grindcore, but beyond that I like to judge bands on an individual basis. Plenty of early death metal bands shared influences from Terrorizer and Bathory to Mercyful Fate, Black Sabbath and even Jazz Fusion, and their main focus was creating good music. Bands that try to ape other sounds generally end up sounding fake and passionless.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 15, 2010)

Labels are often misused or misplaced, thus bringing up the topic of labels and why people hate them. 

People start filing As I Lay Dying as a death metal band, and then you got an issue with death metalers, because it's obviously very incorrect, but then when they call it out - Those people get called Elitists, and then the topic turns to "WHO CARES ABOUT LABELS"...

...When it almost always comes down to a mislabeling by an idiot.

Thus idiots are causing this whole problem. Who would've guessed?


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## Fiesta_Jack (Aug 15, 2010)

Isn't this ANOTHER thread more suitable to The Tube?

Also, metal just ain't what it used to be.


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## SwaggleTooth (Aug 15, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCKjkmjDGGk


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## Sedit (Aug 16, 2010)

Adelphos said:


> I completely agree. Labels are a nice starting point, as there is usually a big difference between power metal and grindcore, but beyond that I like to judge bands on an individual basis. Plenty of early death metal bands shared influences from Terrorizer and Bathory to Mercyful Fate, Black Sabbath and even Jazz Fusion, and their main focus was creating good music. Bands that try to ape other sounds generally end up sounding fake and passionless.


 
I've been around way too many bands where people we're more concerned about what fits into whatever sound/scene they wanted to be associated with.  I just can't work with people like that.  Just write music, let it flow, and let the rest run it's course I say.  If your writing music with a high priority on fitting a certain trend or scene just for the sake of it, than your missing the point of writing music, IMO.


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## Sedit (Aug 16, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Labels are often misused or misplaced, thus bringing up the topic of labels and why people hate them.
> 
> People start filing As I Lay Dying as a death metal band, and then you got an issue with death metalers, because it's obviously very incorrect, but then when they call it out - Those people get called Elitists, and then the topic turns to "WHO CARES ABOUT LABELS"...
> 
> ...


 
Never argue with an idiot...they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience


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## Sedit (Aug 17, 2010)

Fiesta_Jack said:


> Isn't this ANOTHER thread more suitable to The Tube?



I actually kinda realized this like an hour after making the post, cuz I suck.  Not sure how to change it, and would if I could as it may get more views....but alas, I think now it's at the mercy of the mods.



Fiesta_Jack said:


> Also, metal just ain't what it used to be.


 
Well....yes and no.  But for the most part, no.  You really need to dig very deep (and often beyond US borders) to find stuff with that same flair and vibe as the old-school bands.  That being said, there has been, for example, a HUGE resurgence in thrash metal bands over the last 3-5 years or so.  And alot of them capture the writing and prodiction of classic bands, and are quite good.....however, they still seem to be missing a certain vibe the originals had.   Even alot of the original bands, though still quite active, and making great records, don't quite have that feel anymore either.  There's just a certain "magic" that goes along with certain time periods, and movements.  And i imagine that largely has to do with whatever generation you we're born into and indentify with.  Though some of us are aberrations.  I'm 30 years old, and alot of the music that resonates with me had it's hey-day while I was still in kindergarten and elementary school, and watching The Real Ghostbusters, Voltron, and Thundercats, completely oblivious to it at the time that music was happening. But that just is how it worked out.

I would like to see more metal bands take a turn back to some of more macabre, occult vibes of classics like Celtic Frost and Merciful Fate. Even some of the first Slayer stuff.  Stuff that seemed to genuinely be dark, and heavy.  Nothings shocking anymore though,  thats for certain.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 17, 2010)

God...The number of bands I had to stop listening to because they started to become way too pop-metal, is sickening :< They just literally went from *'fucking awesome'*, to _'okay...we can forgive that album_', to 'oh my...I think they're serious_'_. then it's just ugh >_>

or at least, have to stop getting their new stuff, and shirts.


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## Commiecomrade (Aug 21, 2010)

The difference in rock and metal is simple; rock was created taking pieces from rock n' roll and blues, among others, and follows the characteristics of those genres. Hard rock is as close as you can get to metal without losing those roots.

Heavy metal did away with the rather restricting characteristics of its ancestors, and developed into a much harsher, more aggressive sound. Extreme metal genres (thrash, death, black, etc.) merely amplify these distinctions.



Lastdirewolf said:


> God...The number of bands I had to stop listening to because they started to become way too pop-metal, is sickening :< They just literally went from *'fucking awesome'*, to _'okay...we can forgive that album_', to 'oh my...I think they're serious_'_. then it's just ugh >_>


 
*cough*METALLICA*cough*

I'm really into the old and new black and death metal. From what I hear, plenty of people don't like Dimmu Borgir, but I do; great progression through songs, plenty of interesting riffs, and excellent use of symphonies.

Death metal is my main one, though. One band that has impressed me throughout its life is Nile. Each album is something different, and although the lyrics almost always revolve around Egypt, they keep it interesting, and definitely use it as a dissonant percussive effect. Not to mention they have a really deep, resonating guitar sound, along with some extremely experienced drummers (Derek Roddy of the Ithyphallic album was my favorite).


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## Slyck (Aug 21, 2010)

Metal died for me as soon as it began. Where's that blues? Clear vocals? Actual pattern and beat versus noise for the sake of noise? What's with all this fast tempo? Face it, the good influence that folks like Jimi Hendrix had on the genera in it's earliest days are long gone. _Good metal cometh, good metal taketh away._


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## Commiecomrade (Aug 25, 2010)

Slyck said:


> Metal died for me as soon as it began. Where's that blues? Clear vocals? Actual pattern and beat versus noise for the sake of noise? What's with all this fast tempo? Face it, the good influence that folks like Jimi Hendrix had on the genera in it's earliest days are long gone. _Good metal cometh, good metal taketh away._


 
Sorry about that, it's the same way I feel with nu metal and metalcore. There are plenty of good modern bands that I cannot name right now that fit your description. Just keep looking!


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## Sedit (Aug 25, 2010)

Slyck said:


> Metal died for me as soon as it began. Where's that blues? Clear vocals? Actual pattern and beat versus noise for the sake of noise? What's with all this fast tempo? Face it, the good influence that folks like Jimi Hendrix had on the genera in it's earliest days are long gone. _Good metal cometh, good metal taketh away._


 
Well....hard to say.  there are as many bands out there that do maintain various combinations of the above factors, as there are that don't.   Metal has many different faces, for sure.

I honestly don't think Hendrix had THAT much to do with the creation of metal though.  No doubt he pioneered many things that eventually led other bands to spearhead the genre, he is still a few steps removed from it.  Black Sabbath is about the biggest link between the blues, and metal really.  And Black sabbath, along with Deep Purple, and Judas Priest (and to a lesser extent, some may included Led Zeppelin) we're really the first bands to be labeled metal.  And even among them, for the most part, you see a break with bluesier playing, and more classical influenced guitar (we're looking at you, Mr. Blackmore!)...so metal is, in many ways, a more direct descendant of classical.  what with the non-linear song writing, longer track duration, layering of many instruments, and the technical wizardry taken from many classical guitar techniques (at any speed, mind you.  Not just the fastest shredders) this isn't really a far out conclusion.  Incidently, many metal fans enjoy classical music moreso than the blues...but many I know appreciate both.


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## Shred Uhh Sore Us (Aug 27, 2010)

[yt]qpZ18recO9A[/yt]

And it flows SO fucking well.

Dude's got good taste, he's playing a Charvel.


Edit: Also

[yt]5YvhYD1gx4c[/yt]


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 27, 2010)

In my experience metalheads are the most stuck up, snobby, and elitist out of all music fans. And like you said the ridiculous amount of subgenres doesn't help that. I'd rather not have any conversations with any of them about music, it just ends up in a headache. No offense. The fans just put me off the genre in general, which is really a shame. I do like a few metal bands though.


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## Shred Uhh Sore Us (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> In my experience metalheads are the most stuck up, snobby, and elitist out of all music fans. And like you said the ridiculous amount of subgenres doesn't help that. I'd rather not have any conversations with any of them about music, it just ends up in a headache. No offense. The fans just put me off the genre in general, which is really a shame. I do like a few metal bands though.


 
Honestly the term metalhead is retarded. You've apparently just had experiences with douchebags who listen to "metal".

I love metal.
I love all it's subgenres.
I also love just about any music you can throw at me.
I am the opposite of a music elitist.

Don't let a bunch of stuck up twats ruin something for you.


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## Commiecomrade (Sep 1, 2010)

Shred Uhh Sore Us said:


> Don't let a bunch of stuck up twats ruin something for you.



I think all of us here on the forum should know this.


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