# What are some greedy things artists do?



## KurtCobain (Mar 26, 2017)

Disclaimer: this is not a hate post for artists, and don't tell us to just "suck it up it's their art", I mean there was a time women didn't have rights, so should all women have left America just because it was "the government's nation?" The point is: people can do what they want, but that doesn't make it right. Don't say I'm "entitled", I just don't exactly find it fair for somebody with mediocre or bad art to charge too much intentionally, then act snobby about it, and add pointless things as "DLC". If you have "the right to do whatever you want", why don't I?

Anyways, what greedy things do you see artists do? I notice these things:
-Charge extra for NSFW. Like I don't see how it's any harder for artists to make NSFW than SFW. They're just trying to gain off of perverts and that's it. Not all perverts are rich, and in fact, many are not. They leech off of NSFW material and don't have as high-paying jobs as those with cleaner minds and greater capability to get a high-paying job.
-Advertise their commissions in other peoples' places.
-Put minimal effort into max-price commissions.
-Take their time on overpriced commissions.
-Sell art based off of the idea "I need money" rather than "I'm charging for a service, so I shouldn't charge 20 dollars for my less skilled art."
-Guilt trip as an excuse to overcharge commissions.
-Get extremely angry over any critique of an artist's prices or art and hide the comments.
-Put money into useless things from commission profits, like fursuits, especially if they're overpriced. 
-Being snobby and in it for the money, especially if they don't need it much. MAYBE I'd buy overpriced art if artists were at least sincerely kind.
-Putting no personal value or decent customer service behind the art.

Overpriced = charging too much based off an artist's skill level or because they're popular. Sure, this is objective, but there should be redlines by professionals to determine an artist's anatomy skills, checks of coloring/blending/shading etc, and the originality of an art style. People CAN get away with slight overpricing, but it isn't exactly good marketing or customer service. Others can get away with doxing, stalking, and other stuff, so what makes unfair customer service any good? And things can be 'bad', but they can be spoken against too.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 26, 2017)

Using YCH pictures over and over again.


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## Simo (Mar 26, 2017)

Well, there was this one French Guy, and his paintings just did not sell, so first, he cuts off his ear, then, he goes and kills himself, and now this VanGogh guy's art sells for at least $80 million and up, and I bet he's in the afterlife, just counting it all up, laughing at us! Or the folks at Christie's or Sotheby's are. Still, the world of 'actual' art, and the sums paid amaze me; $200 million for a Pollock, or a DeKooning...us furries have nothing on this.

But this is often after an artist dies, though not always, and often, in conjunction with galleries, and agents. Andy Warhol was a genius at literally cranking out art that sold for a fortune in his lifetime.

~

I often wonder: Will a 'furry' artist ever cross over, and make huge sums? Also, what's the highest price paid for a work of 'furry' art? I'm guessing maybe $10,000, if I recall.


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## nerdbat (Mar 26, 2017)

> this is not a hate post for artists and don't tell us to just "suck it up it's their art"


Well, it pretty much is, and if you don't like the terms and pricing of particular artists, you _should_ either "suck it up" or, much more reasonably, vote with your dollar by finding a better/cheaper artist to pay instead of ranting about worse/more expensive ones. I can agree with some of the points (particularly the "advertising where nobody asked for it" one), but aside of that, majority of them are either redundant, downright silly, naive, or just disrespectful to said artists. Just take for example the "Put money into useless things" one - I mean, they _earned_ that money by honest work, you're not in position to dictate what they should spend it on in the first place.

In general, I feel a strong "counting other's money" vibe coming from this thread - it seems less about genuine scamming or manipulation, and more about "How those damn greedy artists earn more money than they should". They do nothing wrong - prices are clear, you get what you pay for, right from the first hands, and if you don't like it, nothing will stop you from buying stuff from somebody else -  no monopolies, shady schemes or hidden price increases involved, so it's as clear and innocent as you can get. That's the fairest kind of customer service, really.


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## Simo (Mar 26, 2017)

Actually, I think it's rather funny when certain artists manage to sell their art for say, $1,000,000 for something simple; it makes me kinda laugh at the whole spectacle, and the general idea of what 'art' is. I mean, take Yoshitomo Nara...a work by him, will easily run a million, and I love him, but people paying that much amazes me.







(I would like to adapt this first one into a tattoo! 

And, I have to admit, he is so cute and evil, in style...but it makes me wonder: when will a furry artist become the sort that hauls in the big money? I think Nara is about 50, 55 years old now.






But an example of art that might be 'marginally' furry...and pricey.

To be sure, Nara has worked all his life on paintings, sculptures and installation pieces, and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a payoff. But the art world sure is a capricious place!


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## nerdbat (Mar 26, 2017)

Simo said:


> I mean, take Yoshitomo Nara...a work by him, will easily run a million, and I love him, but people paying that much amazes me.


In his case, it's more about the status, as least as I see it. He was one of the crucial pioneers in Japanese pop art movement, so he holds certain historical significance behind him - even if his artwork isn't that technically proficient, just having his pic is sort of a desired honor among hardcore art collectionists, hence the absurdly high price


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## Simo (Mar 26, 2017)

nerdbat said:


> In his case, it's more about the status, as least as I see it. He was one of the crucial pioneers in Japanese pop art movement, so he holds certain historical significance behind him - even if his artwork isn't that technically proficient, just having his pic is sort of a desired honor among hardcore art collectionists, hence the absurdly high price



I'd agree. It's simple, but after seeing enough of his work, it has a kind of sadness and gravity to it. I especially like his 'Dogs from your childhood' sculptures, and how they play on the idea of memory and forgetfulness. 

I've always loved art, going to museums, art books, comic books, photography, since I was a little kid. So when I got into the furry scene, I did have to ask: what's the line between 'fine' art, and 'furry', art, and how is it crossed, and will it be crossed? 

But what's paid seems a lot like in the 'real' art world, in ways: name recognition, demand, popularity, and a host of much more intangible things. And for all the time and effort it can take to create art, most furry art doesn't seem to me to be crazily overpriced. At an hourly rate, compared to an actual job, it's not an easy way to get rich. (Or at least, I kinda doubt it is)


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## ItsBrou (Mar 26, 2017)

Free market. 
Artists set a price. Either someone agrees with the value and is willing to pay the price, or it doesn't sell as much or at all. 
Artists are usually price makers. There are fewer artists than people who want art.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 26, 2017)

KurtCobain said:


> Like I don't see how it's any harder for artists to make NSFW than SFW.


Depending on subject matter, it actually can be. www.furaffinity.net: Fluttershy is friends with ALL THE ANIMALS~ by quoting_mungo (NSFW) was harder to make than www.furaffinity.net: Little Gamer by quoting_mungo for instance. Because when you're drawing two bodies interacting intimately, you don't just have to be concerned with the anatomy of the individual bodies, but also with fitting both of them into the "same" 3D space. Some artists also have to take special concern when working on NSFW content that result in that content eating into time they'd otherwise have to themselves, e.g. because they can only work on it after their children go to bed. In a regular job, at least here, if you have to work outside of daytime hours, you get an extra bonus per hour because of the awkward hours your job is making you keep. You may also be paying a premium for the artist pushing their comfort zone for your benefit. All of these are perfectly reasonable arguments for raising one's prices for NSFW content.



KurtCobain said:


> Put money into useless things from commission profits, like fursuits, especially if they're overpriced.


A lot of artists who also have a day job treat their commission income as their "fun money". This actually benefits the fandom, since it means the money is more likely to stay in fandom, which leads to the sum total of art (and yes, fursuits are art) paid for with that money increasing. More awesome stuff to look at, yay!



KurtCobain said:


> Overpriced = charging too much based off an artist's skill level or because they're popular.


Skill level is a really tricky subject in this context; nobody should feel forced to work below minimum wage. And if they have buyers at their current rate, there's no reason for them to, regardless of what you feel a fair price for their content should be.
Popularity has a simple answer, however: supply and demand. Even if $30/hour is a great pay rate and an artist can reliably complete a single-character flat-color illustration per hour, demand will not create more hours in the day for them. It makes a lot more financial sense to increase their prices to where they get a steady stream of commissions that they have the hours to complete, than to artificially limit how many commissions they accept because it wouldn't be "fair" to charge more than $30 for their work.


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## ~Lynx (Mar 26, 2017)

KurtCobain said:


> Charge extra for NSFW. Like I don't see how it's any harder for artists to make NSFW than SFW.



It's a skill set. Drawing by itself does not give you the skills to draw everything. Spending months or years to specialize does. It's not usually harder for NSFW artists to draw NSFW, but it usually takes a lot more time and effort to learn to draw NSFW unless you started out exclusively drawing NSFW.

Plus, supply and demand. Lower supply of NSFW artists with a decent demand for our art means prices can go up and still sell. 

Interest in art and intelligence are not mutually exclusive traits. I speak five languages--but I still draw NSFW art. Why? I enjoy it. And I sell it because my current job doesn't pay enough. Simply being smart doesn't make jobs appear out of thin air.



> Sell art based off of the idea "I need money" rather than "I'm charging for a service, so I shouldn't charge 20 dollars for my less skilled art."



I need money in order to eat. To pay rent. To afford transport. Besides, art is a luxury. If you think $20 for a handmade luxury is too much, you might want to consider buying things that are not art. Art takes a very long time to become skilled at.

Artists price at the point we are willing to work at. That's what our time, effort, and skill are worth. The market will show whether they agree or not. If you don't, then that's fine. Don't buy it. But we're not going to charge minimum wage or less when we have years of experience behind us.


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## ferretsage (Mar 27, 2017)

I, initially, wrote a 10 paragraph essay, but this 1994 comic succinctly encompasses all I wanted to say. Called out on your collective human asses long before your escapist furry fandom magically became what it is today. Furry, thy name is Avarice.


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## Bidoyinn (Mar 27, 2017)

There's nothing wrong with artists putting the money into other commissions or selling at whatever price if they want to, because: it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and, it's simply that if people buy it at the price they've set it at then..that's its price. That's it. You're complaining about a luxury. You don't need to buy it.

Artists have examples of the work they do in their galleries and if you feel like you're getting cheated out of what you think you deserve then...again, don't buy it. They're not scamming anyone (usually), they're just trying to make ends meet for one reason or another.



KurtCobain said:


> -Sell art based off of the idea "I need money" rather than "I'm charging for a service, so I shouldn't charge 20 dollars for my less skilled art."



I'm going to quote this point specifically because hello why would they ever think about charging money for their art if they didn't think they needed money? Unless you're going to be personally funding them for the rest of their life you can't ask anyone to charge lower (or in some cases, hand out the stuff for free) when they could be making art for a better profit.

I do understand that it's hard to find people that fit certain standards when it comes to commissioning but there's always going to be someone that gives you what you want at a price you can afford. There's no monopoly on art here, so, idk, look harder.


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## lupi900 (Mar 28, 2017)

I just unwatched a artist because of him/her closing comments for no real reason & another for calling weasyl/sofurry artists drama starters because they like those sites more. Also take people's money and never do anything.


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## juiceboxbunny (Mar 28, 2017)

The only time i would judge an artist on how they spend their money was if they were begging for money for food or saying they had an emergency for vet bills/rent etc. And then saw them the next day buying an adopt for over $30.
This truly happened


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## Zel_____ (Mar 28, 2017)

Mr. Fox said:


> Using YCH pictures over and over again.


Good to know. I only use my YCH's once, but if it's for a personal project or I'll be using it or something similar again later, I make a note of it.

Example: 





www.furaffinity.net: YCH Hyena pose - SOLD by WanderingYena I note: "I'm working on a hyena adopt and drew this pose, but decided I don't like it. If you have a hyena character (or want me to create one for you) that might fit this pose, consider this a YCH commission! As a warning, the pose I DID decide to keep is very similar. The main change is the direction of the neck and head."


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## Zel_____ (Mar 28, 2017)

KurtCobain said:


> Disclaimer: this is not a hate post for artists, and don't tell us to just "suck it up it's their art", I mean there was a time women didn't have rights, so should all women have left America just because it was "the government's nation?" The point is: people can do what they want, but that doesn't make it right. Don't say I'm "entitled", I just don't exactly find it fair for somebody with mediocre or bad art to charge too much intentionally, then act snobby about it, and add pointless things as "DLC". If you have "the right to do whatever you want", why don't I?
> 
> Anyways, what greedy things do you see artists do? I notice these things:
> -Charge extra for NSFW. Like I don't see how it's any harder for artists to make NSFW than SFW. They're just trying to gain off of perverts and that's it. Not all perverts are rich, and in fact, many are not. They leech off of NSFW material and don't have as high-paying jobs as those with cleaner minds and greater capability to get a high-paying job.
> ...



As an artist, and as someone with some friends who are professional (full time!) artists, I'll try to shed some perspective on this.

1) "Furry" art is already ridiculously underpriced. If you compare to other fandoms or scenes, especially the comic and graphic novel scene, you'll see this is true. As an example, take a look at the prices for the original line-art of the comic series Squarriors (some may be NSFW-violence): Squarriors original art issues 3-4 · Ashley Marie Witter · Online Store Powered by Storenvy It's still drawings of animals, but the starting price for many of these is $500/$250, and it's "just" pencil work. That's triple or more of what I've seen for the same type of art in the fandom. But make no mistake, that artist absolutely deserves it. I'd argue most "furry" artists deserve way more.

2) As for someone with "bad" art charging too much: As the saying goes, "everything is worth what the purchaser will pay for it." If you see high prices for 'garbage', the next thing is to see if people are actually buying it. Maybe they aren't, and this artist will slowly learn a valuable lesson. If they are, maybe there's some other appeal to it? I've seen little cartoon creatures on DeviantArt selling for $70+ a pop, but the appeal of buying them is to join a community of people who all own these little cartoon things. /shrug

3) You and other clients may not like it, but unless you state explicitly in your contract with an artist (and, more importantly, PAY for it), the artist owns the rights to their images in the end.  If you want exclusive rights to an image, you need to pay for those rights. Otherwise, the artist still owns the original piece, and has the right to produce prints, use it in their portfolio, etc. See the Squarriors pencil drawings I linked earlier? You can buy the originals, but they've already been used to produce a comic that's already been printed hundreds of times. 

In the fandom, we don't see a ton of issue with this, because there's an overall "gentleman's agreement" that the artwork being produced is of people's personal characters, and they don't want these images re-used in other ways. But if a given artist takes dozens of (arguably cheap) fursona commissions, it's within their right to produce prints of these works, even a book collection. You just don't see as much of this because, again, the "culture" here has a respect for people's characters, so people would feel awkward buying art of someone else's character unless it was part of some open, agreed-upon project.

And you, the client, do NOT have the same right to produce prints and profit of this work, unless you buy those production rights. Your $40 headshot commission is just to pay to get the work done and get a copy for yourself; *the artist owns the royalties/production rights.* There's probably better legalese language for this, but you get the idea. If you don't want an artist printing something you paid for, ask them for a contract where you also buy the rights.

4) I don't do NSFW work, and my reason is, in addition to not _wanting_ to (personally), NSFW is not the nicest thing to have your name and art style attached to. The fandom here is very liberal-minded, but not everyone else shares the same sentiment. "Clean" furry art can often still be shared publicly and used as an art portfolio example, but NSFW is often tucked away. That's a lot of lost revenue for an artist to spend time on a piece they can't necessarily promote or distribute or sell prints of.

So, even if an artist is cool with shouting from the rooftops about their NSFW works, let's be honest: There's that little bit more detail involved in drawing them, if you catch my drift. Just like an artist has the right to charge extra for wings or clothing (you're adding whole extra limbs or pieces with details onto a base form), they have the right to charge extra for "those" details. 

5) I agree it's tacky for an artist to 'beg' under the notion they "need money" or have whatever other emergency to pay for. I do note, though, that this fandom has a culture of openness and support, so it's not that tacky for an artist to effectively announce a Go Fund Me-esque drive for funds through their commissions. That aside, I hate to burst your bubble, but artists have bills to pay and need to do things like eat and pay rent. It's a sad fact of life, but the money isn't greed so much as necessity. And, often for what you're getting, the artist deserves it. And and, as mentioned before, you're likely already getting a massive discount simply because it's "furry."

*Why do you think it's up to you to decide if an artist truly "needs" the money or not?*

(part 2 next...)


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## Zel_____ (Mar 28, 2017)

6) To your point on artists spending on "useless" things, why is that your decision to make? One artist may be scrambling to pay bills and buy food, another may be in a comfortable spot to buy something for themselves. They're humans, they can do things other humans have the right to do.

7) Why are you publicly critiquing an artist's prices? Everything is worth what the purchaser will pay for it. If you will not purchase at a given price, and no one else does, then the artist will learn it's not worth that and adjust their price. It's not your business to "school" people on this. It's also bad for their business if someone is loitering around in the comments calling shananigans on pricing. If you had a store and lots of customers were looking around and considering buying something, then some jerk ran in screaming "everything here is overpriced! It should be cheaper! I can get it cheaper elsewhere!" would you be happy about that? What if that jerk was successful in convincing your other customers to leave? You'd probably ban them from your store, right? An artist is perfectly in their right to hide comments detracting from their sales.

8) If you can't afford it, don't buy it! It's very simple. If you really want custom art and have a budget, that's okay too! Announce what you're looking for and your budget, and see what artists come along willing to work with you. 

9) I do agree customer service is very important. I aim to be friendly and open with everyone I talk to. But, my time is valuable. If my goal is to sell art so I can pay bills, a person who's chatting non-stop about how great my art is and how they can't afford it is essentially wasting my time. I will always thank them for their support, but I can't respond to every note and reply every 5 minutes. I need to run a business. I need to talk to my other customers. I need to promote my art. I need to _produce_ art.

When I (re-joined) FA, within 5 minutes someone PM'd me asking if I could draw a particular animal. I said sure, I'd be interested. They sent me a ref sheet, and I replied with a quote. They told me they had no money. I replied thanking them for their interest, and said the quote would be good for a full year if they wanted to pay at a later time. They replied asking if I could do it for free. I replied saying that I do not take free requests, and thanked them again for their interest in my art. They replied begging me to do it for free. And replied. And replied. And replied...I ended up having to block them.

So, yeah. Any business person needs to be kind, but they also need their time to be respected.

10) You mention you don't want people to call you "entitled", which leads me to believe you've been labeled as this before. If a number of people are calling you "entitled", do you think they may have a reason why?


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## PlusThirtyOne (Mar 28, 2017)

Wait. Did a mod just link NSFW art without tagging it?
i feel like i just caught a police officer littering.

...or jacking it in the alley.
One of those two. :V


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 29, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> Wait. Did a mod just link NSFW art without tagging it?
> i feel like i just caught a police officer littering.
> 
> ...or jacking it in the alley.
> One of those two. :V


>.> you saw nothing. That flag was totes there all along. Honest.
I'm pretty sure mod status doesn't come with immunity to being a derp. Or if it does, I'm behind on my shots.


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## Zeitzbach (Mar 31, 2017)

Some artists charge more for NSFWs because those pieces come with potential harm to their names and reputation. Some of them may even have to opt out of uploading it just to make sure they don't pick up audience outside their wanted range.


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## Cave (Apr 9, 2017)

juiceboxbunny said:


> The only time i would judge an artist on how they spend their money was if they were begging for money for food or saying they had an emergency for vet bills/rent etc. And then saw them the next day buying an adopt for over $30.
> This truly happened



I've noticed, seen, and heard that many times too. They say they are broke and need the money for vet or rent bills. But then a fews weeks they are at a convention or consecutive conventions every single weekend. Especially those very rich furs. This one guy said he needed $4,000 because his dog broke his leg and how it still hurts. He keeps asking for money from people too. But he has been going to a lot of conventions lately. I don't know about you but going to a convention just about every single weekend can add up very fast. Not just conventions but they also hang out (furmeets) a lot quite a bit. They say they are broke but then keep posting pics on social media about what a wonderful time there having. It just shows how immature and very irresponsible some furs really are.


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## Cave (Aug 31, 2018)

When an artist makes a journal about giving away free art and the instructions to do so. OK, so you do everything thaf instructions tell you to and wait for the artist response. And guess what? Yup the artist has the nerve to refuse to do the free artwork but instead do it for a small price. Its like what the hell! I did everything the right way and it's like you get punished for it. You know what? Those journals are just a scheme to get more watchers, a bigger audience, and more money. Its like thanks but no thanks for wasting my time!


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 31, 2018)

Charge upwards of $30 for rough sketches.
Charge hundreds of dollars for plain, average character designs.
Disregard customer's specifically stated budgets and try and convince them to spend more anyway.
Describe their own work as "high quality" "amazing" "awesome" "beautiful".
Selling a YCH that was never stated to be a clone/re-used pose, but then later re-use it anyway.



Cave said:


> When an artist makes a journal about giving away free art and the instructions to do so. OK, so you do everything thaf instructions tell you to and wait for the artist response. And guess what? Yup the artist has the nerve to refuse to do the free artwork but instead do it for a small price. Its like what the hell! I did everything the right way and it's like you get punished for it. You know what? Those journals are just a scheme to get more watchers, a bigger audience, and more money. Its like thanks but no thanks for wasting my time!



To be fair, nobody owes you free art. It's free, you should appreciate it if someone is willing to draw for you for nothing. 
If they back out of it, you have no right to be upset. Artists aren't magic art machines, this stuff takes time and effort.

Though suddenly offering to do it for money is a little odd. I've never heard of that before.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 31, 2018)

Closing this due to a year+ necro


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