# The Anti-Drama Llama Movement



## Gavrill (May 14, 2009)

Alright, 'Neer said I could discuss this. So, what is your opinion? I think the movement is full of holes and doesn't actually stop drama as the name would suggest.

For one, if the person who receives money from them is caught being filthy rich, there's not much you can do, seeing as the movement gave them money in the first place. They were doing what most people on the internet do; taking advantage of a great deal. and what do you do? Ban them? You can't, because the movement is not sanctioned by the admins. Besides, it's rather easy to create alts. Trust me on that.

Secondly, how exactly does throwing money make people stop being dramatic? It doesn't. Then all they want is more money, usually. It's a bad idea to give money to people on the internet, period. 

Lastly, I've yet to see the movement accomplish anything other than donated art. Really? Art? How does that help anyone?

In conclusion, bad idea all around. I'm not putting up a poll, I'm simply asking. Do you think, with everything presented, that it's a good idea? Discuss.


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## TakeWalker (May 14, 2009)

Let's back up for a second. They actually _do_ things?  I thought they were just another stupid club account.


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## Takun (May 14, 2009)

COPYPASTA


Stupid shit.  :V

Let's get money involved!  That won't cause drama! 


I hope it's a clever scheme to get all the poor begging fucktards into one group so they can nuke them.



> The Anti-Drama Llama Movement is an effort originally thought up by http://a.furaffinity.net/otakuman24.gif otakuman24 as a means to try and help reduce the amount of sadness, emotional anxiety, woe, grief, and overall drama that tends to plague FurAffinity members on a near daily basis.


OH FUCK, THE WOE.  THE SADNESS.  I CAN'T EVEN GO TO WORK I'M SO EMOTIONAL.

You guys are enablers.


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## AshleyAshes (May 14, 2009)

The ADLM's most notable members all seem to be people who cause signifigant drama anyway.  Honestly, I think it's a joke.


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## LizardKing (May 14, 2009)

"Oh no guys, don't go creating some drama on the forum by posting your pathetic lives, here, take some money!"

"Oh man, you ran out of porn? Don't worry man, you wont have to go shitting up a storm, I'll get someone to donate some sexy new art!"


Well, that's what I could see anyway.


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## Jealousy (May 14, 2009)

Miss Shenzebo, I'm not sure you are going to get much discussion out of this group, especially how this started.


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## Gavrill (May 14, 2009)

Jealousy said:


> Miss Shenzebo, I'm not sure you are going to get much discussion out of this group, especially how this started.


Well, Neer wants to see all opinions before he decides anything. I'm interested in any argument _for _this group.


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## Adrimor (May 14, 2009)

LYKE OMG GUISE WE GOT A KEWL N EDJEE ICON

...yeah, wtf...I'm pretty good at Devil's Advocate, and even I can't find an argument for them or the "movement".

Then again, the only movements I tend to find truly vital are bowel movements. All the others inevitably outlive their usefulness.


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## shebawolf145 (May 14, 2009)

When I first found out about them I was like "oh cool" but now I'm like...WTF? I am honestly sick and tired of hearing about people's drama. People need to just suck it up and move on...and if they are on the freakin internet they have money...how do you think you get internet (besides borrowing computers or going to the library).

Ok...I'm going to shut up now...I need to go look for a job because I'm so damn poor. XD


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## Arshes Nei (May 14, 2009)

A benefiting Anti-Drama Llama movement: unwatch journals.

Of course we don't have that option so...


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## Gavrill (May 14, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> A benefiting Anti-Drama Llama movement: unwatch journals.
> 
> Of course we don't have that option so...


Ignore journals, more like.


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## Adrimor (May 14, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> A benefiting Anti-Drama Llama movement: unwatch journals.



It's not like nobody'd have suggested it without the "movement", though. Personally, there are artists I only watch for the art, and then there are some who I only watch for the journals.

...well, the only example of the latter I can think of is AlexReynard, but even so.


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## Arshes Nei (May 14, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> It's not like nobody'd have suggested it without the "movement", though. Personally, there are artists I only watch for the art, and then there are some who I only watch for the journals.
> 
> ...well, the only example of the latter I can think of is AlexReynard, but even so.



It wasn't an argument for the movement. It's that people cry about drama and if we had an option to toggle whether or not to watch journals, a lot would be better off...ie there wouldn't be a "need" for that community.


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## Gavrill (May 14, 2009)

No one loses anything when they click a BAWW journal, except maybe 5 minutes. It's not really an issue in the fandom.


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## Takun (May 14, 2009)

SHENZEBO said:


> No one loses anything when they click a BAWW journal, except maybe 5 minutes. It's not really an issue in the fandom.



I have a person I watch that at one point made 10 journals a day.  ._.


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## Adrimor (May 14, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> It wasn't an argument for the movement. It's that people cry about drama and if we had an option to toggle whether or not to watch journals, a lot would be better off...ie there wouldn't be a "need" for that community.


Ahh, k. Understood.



SHENZEBO said:


> No one loses anything when they click a BAWW journal, except maybe 5 minutes. It's not really an issue in the fandom.


But think about it--
Eventually, furs might just catch on that a lot of people unwatch their journals if they BAWW all the time...theoretically, they may then stop doing it on FA and go back to their LJs like good little whiners.

Besides, time is money =P


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## Armaetus (May 15, 2009)

I find it ironic that Jesskitt was part of this movement.


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## Adrimor (May 15, 2009)

^ I believe the irony in that was already pointed out when she was raising her shitstorm sometime last Thursday. It would seem that her membership is no more ironic than any of the other members, though, if Ashley up there is right.


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## Ainoko (May 15, 2009)

Reguardless of wherther or not people love or hate the ADLM is their choice. Whether or not you are willing to help is your choice. 


I know that by me helping the ADLM can be a risk, but it is my choice, however, we all take chances in life, some pay off, some don't. 

I support the ADLM for the chance of helping others, I do hope that the ADLM is not actually enabling those who behave like the first openly perma-banned fur 'Allan'.

There are a couple here who have already responded to my locked thread concerning the ADLM, and you should know that I am doing what I am doing out of the goodness of my heart, although I am needing that type of help myself.

I was taught by a very wise and honorable person, that giving to others before giving to themselves is worth more that all the gold in the world.

This person was only seven years old, when he told me this two weeks before he died from cancer. He was my baby brother

Yes, I do take chances like this, there have been a few times where I have been taken, but overall, I have had the utmost pleasure seeing someone's life made a little easier because I tok the chance to do so.


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## Verin Asper (May 15, 2009)

Ainoko said:


> Reguardless of wherther or not people love or hate the ADLM is their choice. Whether or not you are willing to help is your choice.
> 
> 
> I know that by me helping the ADLM can be a risk, but it is my choice, however, we all take chances in life, some pay off, some don't.
> ...



"those with Ill deeds, shall use those with good hearts"


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## Ainoko (May 15, 2009)

Crysix Corps said:


> "those with Ill deeds, shall use those with good hearts"



"What goes around, comes around" my friend.

I have used charities in teh past and know that there are those who do use and abuse them, but remember, for everyone who abuses such charities there are more who need teh charities bat are afraid to ask. We all need to take chances, and what better chance than to help the ADLM.

I beleive that everyone will need help from charities in thier life, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday you will be asking for help, pray that there are still those of us around who beleive in helping those who do need help. If not, then the world will be mush worse off than it is now.

The ADLM was created to help those in need and to help cut down on the drama that appears on both the main site and the forums site. If the ADLM succeeds at this, I want to honestly say that I did my part in making them a success, and not known to just jump on the bandwagon because it has become the 'in' thing.

I want to see the ADLM become one of the bright points for the fandom, something that the trolls and naysayers will have a hard time destroying.

Right now, the fandom it veiwed as a horde of sex-starved, drugged, and perverted people (something that all communities have in common)

I beleive that this is just one step that should take to make ourselves look better in the eyes of those who shoot us down every chance they get. I have heard the rally cries for the fandom to things to make us look better and to change the opinions of those who decry us.

If we in the fandom keep shooting those who are making the effort to improve our image, then the fandome deserves every ounce of scorn that is heaped on us.

So I say let's all band together and make the ADLM the success that it is intended to be.


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## Verin Asper (May 15, 2009)

Ainoko said:


> "What goes around, comes around" my friend.
> 
> I have used charities in teh past and know that there are those who do use and abuse them, but remember, for everyone who abuses such charities there are more who need teh charities bat are afraid to ask. We all need to take chances, and what better chance than to help the ADLM.
> 
> ...


then good luck where everyone else failed anyway, just hope you can take in the backlash of what I spoke of happens over and over again. There are more Allan types out there, and you cant help them all ya gotta pick and choose in the end


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## Ainoko (May 15, 2009)

Crysix Corps said:


> then good luck where everyone else failed anyway, just hope you can take in the backlash of what I spoke of happens over and over again. There are more Allan types out there, and you cant help them all ya gotta pick and choose in the end



Right there is where charities are destroyed. People are afraid of taking the chance to help someone, because they are afraid that the one they are helping just might take them for all they are worth. And no I am not bashing you, I am pointing out why people are afraid to charities, whether it be the ADLM or some other. When people created the red cross, the uso, united way and the salvation army, they most likely thought about that, but went ahead anyways. People like Allan, are excellent at destroying peoples goodwill if we let them. I for one will not stand to see the 'Allans' of teh world destroy something that could be beautiful


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## Verin Asper (May 15, 2009)

Ainoko said:


> Right there is where charities are destroyed. People are afraid of taking the chance to help someone, because they are afraid that the one they are helping just might take them for all they are worth. And no I am not bashing you, I am pointing out why people are afraid to charities, whether it be the ADLM or some other. When people created the red cross, the uso, united way and the salvation army, they most likely thought about that, but went ahead anyways. People like Allan, are excellent at destroying peoples goodwill if we let them. I for one will not stand to see the 'Allans' of teh world destroy something that could be beautiful


There are those who really dont care, there are also folks who are only doing good deeds so they can feel important, then there are those who want help then shun or forget about you once you help them. Then again, I use to be nice, donate to those who needed help...then I stopped, no point in the end in my book if you are nice, or an asshole.


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## AshleyAshes (May 15, 2009)

The dramatic furries of the internet don't need you buying them things to stop the drama

They need psychotherapy.  Seriously.  Narcisisitic personality disorders, borderline personality disorders, antisocial personality disorders, classic depression, under developed social skills and things like that are what make the fandom the shit hole that it is.  Let's buy them some art!  That'll fix things!

No.

They should be helped to become more ballanced and well socialized individuals who don't to cry to all their internet friends about their latest online relationship problems or that they're broke cause they bet the farm on selling stupid furry shit at coventions and on FA rather than get a real job.


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## Adrimor (May 15, 2009)

Ainoko said:


> I was taught by a very wise and honorable person, that giving to others before giving to themselves is worth more that all the gold in the world.


That kind of thinking usually causes the people who believe in it more pain than happiness.

Give away all your money and possessions, and you're solely at the mercy of others. If the others are good, you'll be able to live--but, at best, probably no better than you did before.

Sadly, the majority of people are greedy, amoral, and self-important--and incorrigibly so. To change this would require nothing short of a complete overhaul of society, and that would have to start not at the top or the bottom, but at all levels at once. You can't pick yourself up by your bootstraps, to use the old clichÃ©.



Ainoko said:


> "What goes around, comes around" my friend.


Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit here.
Do you honestly think the bankers who led us into this falling economy are suffering? No--they're getting billions of dollars for it--a _reward_, if anything.



> I beleive that everyone will need help from charities in thier life, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday you will be asking for help, pray that there are still those of us around who beleive in helping those who do need help. If not, then the world will be mush worse off than it is now.


A lot of people can buy their own commissions--or, if broke/saving up for something, draw their own pictures. Your argument is invalid.



> I want to see the ADLM become one of the bright points for the fandom, something that the trolls and naysayers will have a hard time destroying.


Because the rest of the fandom's already been taken out?



> Right now, the fandom it veiwed as a horde of sex-starved, drugged, and perverted people (something that all communities have in common)


That isn't going to change as long as most people find out about the fandom _through its porn_, madam.

But, really, I'm going to defer to another discussion about that here.


			
				AlexReynard said:
			
		

> Who the fuck decided that pervs are bad? The fandom is ABOUT PORN. I'm just gonna come right out and say it, because we all know it's true. Yes, some parts of it are non-porny, but I look at the Dealer's Den at Anthrocon as all the proof I need. What's selling like hotcakes? PORN, PORN, PORN!!! Humans in general and furries specifically need to stop acting like Puritans and acknowledge that there is absolutely nothing wrong or immoral or shameful about furry porn in the first damn place. It's as valid as any other form of art, it harms no one, and it makes people happy. In my worldview, that makes it good.



And, ironically, the Republican Party still hasn't yet gotten that label.



> I beleive that this is just one step that should take to make ourselves look better in the eyes of those who shoot us down every chance they get. I have heard the rally cries for the fandom to things to make us look better and to change the opinions of those who decry us.


What you believe doesn't matter, because it goes against the facts.

Trolls will be trolls. If anything, the ADLM will give them more ammo by reinforcing their "furry fandom = hugbox" joke/mantra.

You may as well believe that the Earth is flat or that lightning is caused by demons.



> If we in the fandom keep shooting those who are making the effort to improve our image, then the fandome deserves every ounce of scorn that is heaped on us.


Considering that the fandom at large tends to look more harshly on those who say things like "Hey, dude--maybe wearing a diaper everywhere and pretending to be a baby 24/7 _isn't_ such a good idea" than those who actually need said advice, I think we're all pretty much fucked.

From what I've seen, there's no shortage of idealism in this fandom. As such, more pragmatism is what's needed.

Just as with the "live for yourself/live for others" duality, balance is key.



Ainoko said:


> When people created the red cross, the uso, united way and the salvation army, they most likely thought about that, but went ahead anyways.


Did you know that the leader of the Salvation Army makes more money than the President of the United States?



AshleyAshes said:


> The dramatic furries of the internet don't need you buying them things to stop the drama
> 
> They need psychotherapy.  Seriously.  Narcisisitic personality disorders, borderline personality disorders, antisocial personality disorders, classic depression, under developed social skills and things like that are what make the fandom the shit hole that it is.  Let's buy them some art!  That'll fix things!
> 
> ...


...once again, I am amazed by how much win you can fit into so few sentences. I should take notes...


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## AshleyAshes (May 15, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> ...once again, I am amazed by how much win you can fit into so few sentences. I should take notes...


 
But it also means that the descriptive prose in my writing is often too breif for my liking.


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## Gavrill (May 15, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> The dramatic furries of the internet don't need you buying them things to stop the drama
> 
> They need psychotherapy.  Seriously.  Narcisisitic personality disorders, borderline personality disorders, antisocial personality disorders, classic depression, under developed social skills and things like that are what make the fandom the shit hole that it is.  Let's buy them some art!  That'll fix things!
> 
> ...


Thisthisthis thank you.

@ Ainoko: Think clearly here. For a moment, try and have a startling epiphany. People on the internet are dicks. And there are plenty of charities that are based in the real world, we don't need one that can be easily manipulated and cause a pain in the ass for admins to ban people who do what comes naturally (as in, get free money).


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## Rilvor (May 15, 2009)

Oh awesome, now I know where to go to find all of the easiest trollbait in one spot.

Bored on a Friday night?

I KNOW, FUCK YEAH.

Let's head on over to the Anti-Drama Llama Movement, the greatest concentration of whiners and pathetic garbage on the net and make some schmuck squeal for our enjoyment. Then all his schmuck buddies will show up and we'll _REALLY_ have a party, no getting drunk needed.


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## Takun (May 15, 2009)

Rilvor said:


> Oh awesome, now I know where to go to find all of the easiest trollbait in one spot.
> 
> Bored on a Friday night?
> 
> ...



I'll bring the proxies!


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## Adrimor (May 15, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> But it also means that the descriptive prose in my writing is often too breif for my liking.


Hey--keeping in mind that most furries overdescribe things anyway, that's probably a Good Thing =P



Rilvor said:


> Oh awesome, now I know where to go to find all of the easiest trollbait in one spot.
> 
> Bored on a Friday night?
> 
> ...


What happened to you, Rilvor?
You're not even trying anymore.


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## Ainoko (May 15, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> Hey--keeping in mind that most furries overdescribe things anyway, that's probably a Good Thing =P




In someways yes, but in others, no


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## Adrimor (May 15, 2009)

Considering that nobody was talking to you, you fail again~


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## Rehka (May 15, 2009)

if you're just looking for opinions heres mine... the movement has its heart in the right place, but  just isn't that fantastic of an idea. 

To me the name even makes me think of people bothering other people about causing drama, that they would more encourage people to get professional help rather than give handouts. I think charity time and money would be better spent on things like soup kitchens and Save the Children; rather than on over dramatic furries who would rather have other furries save them then, say, going and getting on EI while searching for a new job or something to that effect.

It is, to me, a useless hand out. People turning to [what is essentially] a porn site rather than there own local government and organizations for monetary assistance (or even established online organizations designed to help in these situations) in times of need either really, really do need professional, clinical help or really aren't in that dire of a straight.

Its a sweet gesture, but this kind of thing could ultimately become a crutch for those of the fandom to lazy to do anything for themselves, people so ultimately taken over by the furry 'lifestyle' they forget that real world things exist to help them in more effective efficient ways than a online group of furries who want to do the right thing. ("give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime" or something to that effect) Given the sheer volume of whiners the furry fandom, it really seems that this would be more "when" than "if".


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## Jealousy (May 15, 2009)

It was a nice idea, it was just horribly implemented. I'd retool it, seem less self serving, give it a better name, and maybe figure out a purpose that would make the fandom look good without potentially letting people take advantage.


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## AshleyAshes (May 15, 2009)

How about retool it to be an education platform titled: 'How to stop making people laugh at you on the internet by becoming an emotionally stable individual instead of a whiney fucktard'?

Okay, maybe a shorter title is in order but that's the real goal.  Anyone who is at the center of drama on the fandom brought it on themselves by one means or another.  Usually but making it as public as possible.  These idiots just need to learn to keep private matters PRIVATE.


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## SnowFox (May 15, 2009)

HTSMPLAYOTIBBAESIIOAWF does have a ring to it.


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## Armaetus (May 15, 2009)

I'm tempted to post the topic URL to the shoutbox to see if I can get any of them to join, notibly otakuman24.


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## Jealousy (May 15, 2009)

I would do it. It would not be fair to leave them out of a discussion about their own group.


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## AshleyAshes (May 15, 2009)

$20 says that once they're alerted, drama ensues rather than the rational and calm discussoin we are having right now.


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## Adrimor (May 15, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> $20 says that once they're alerted, drama ensues rather than the rational and calm discussoin we are having right now.


I got another $20 here to back that.


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## Not A Fox (May 15, 2009)

Not A Fox said:


> Whoever thought up the name needs to be shot in the ass and deported from their home country.



quoted for emphasis


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## Endless Humiliation (May 15, 2009)

Not A Fox said:


> quoted for emphasis



*Wanking motion*

*Wanking motion*

*Wanking motion*

*Wanking motion*


*Wanking motion*


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## Kesteh (May 15, 2009)

Other than collecting money and being a club account, I see this 'movement' doing nothing.

You don't fix social problems between an individual and a troll by throwing money at a third party. You don't stop crybaby journals by it either.
The cure is called "ignoring". Yet many people are to fucking stupid to do it and they just keep going on and yelling at the troll and paying attention to it. On the internet.
Get a grip. Grow some balls, stop bitching over stupid shit and move on. Paying attention is the first step to all of this with common sense being the second.

Zero progress with this movement here. It needs to go instead of being a money mine for a blind promise. (Read as: SCAM) 
Honestly what ARE you going to do with the money? I mean...the money is going to you after all...it is being 'donated'...

*



			Current Funds Raised: $124.96 out of $1200.00
		
Click to expand...

*Why are people so stupid?
600 slots at two dollars a piece. Up to ten tickets per person. (Or 60 people buying 10)
1200 dollars into this person's pocket. If Allan was smart and did this he wouldn't have debt problems.


			
				Allan said:
			
		

> BANNED


...All for a commission of sorts based on a random picking? I'd rather pay fifty dollars for a single character sketch from a high-name artist and be put on a wait list.


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## Gavrill (May 15, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> I got another $20 here to back that.


I'll throw in a twenty for the benefit of FA itself :V


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## AshleyAshes (May 15, 2009)

All winnings from the Anti Drama Llama Movement betting pool will be paid out directly from from ADLM's coffers of course.


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## Adrimor (May 16, 2009)

Of course. They're the ones we're betting against here =D


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## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

Glaice said:


> I'm tempted to post the topic URL to the shoutbox to see if I can get any of them to join, notibly otakuman24.


You rang?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My my.  Read through all the comments here and there's some harsh stuff here.  Granted, I just registered on the forums thanks to this thread since I'm really not one to browse forums these days.  At least not phpBB styles anyway.

So... perhaps I should tell a bit about myself.

I'm Steve, aka "Otaku-Man" since I love video games and anime first and foremost before anything (except for my wife, and she knows that, but "Good Husband-Man" isn't as catchy).  I'm 26, a graduate of the Rochester Institute of Technology with a Bachelors of Science in Information Technology, and...

...I am unemployed.

I have not had a full time job since August of 2007 when the company I was with after I left college downsized.  I've been searching regularly and working with National and State agencies to help me find new employment.  I am studying to obtain my A+ certification to make me a more valuable candidate, and looking for any and all opportunities to make use of my technical skills to keep them honed and sharp.

The Anti-Drama Llama Movement came to me last Fall when I started getting back on FA on a more regular basis.  I myself have never really been a big fan of the furry art style, but I had a number of online friends who were, and wanting to socialize with them more, I signed up here.
Last Fall, I had returned from an approximately 1 year hiatus, and being an avid watcher of many here, I quickly saw a pattern amongst the community.

Lots of people were miserable.

I read journals more so than I look at artwork, and as I read through them, just as the Recession was officially announced and before Barack Obama took office, I learned a few things.

Many members of FA are unemployed or have been recently laid off from work.  Many FA members have disabilities, both physical and mental which impair their daily lives.  Many FA members are depressed for one reason or another.  Many FA members get overly dramatic over small, silly things.  Many FA members come here to voice their problems in hopes that their FA friends will sympathize and share encouraging words.

I also learned many FA members can be cruel.  Some FA members will do nothing more than look for journals of people pouring their heart out, and then mocking them with pure maliciousness.  Some of them have valid points, but express them with a lack of tact.  Others are simply morons who like to insult and inflate their over-inflated egos more.

Some members are well off.  Some members have good things going for them.  But the entire USA, no, the entire world is facing an economic crisis not seen since the great depression, amd life all around is quite miserable.

As someone who has also felt the brunt of this hard times, I decided to try and develop a support network on FA and called it the "Anti-Drama Llama Movement".  Originally, I intended it to be a way of members talking and working with other members to help lift spirits and share tips and information to help others out.

It evolved into handling money after I saw a raffle held by KittyOffAndOmDoom for his friend Ashi.  In a week, he was able to raise over $200 for her to help with her bills and take care of her dog.  He rallied several prominant artists on FA to donate art to the raffle winner, and it was a huge success.  Impressed, I took the reigns from KittyOffAndOmDoom, and began working the raffles to support multiple people.

In March, the raffle faced a massive flood of trolls denouncing the notion of the movement.  Regardless, I have been able to hold through on my promise and got funds to:

Sift
Nekonorai
DragonofDarkness13
Alrumia
OzzieKitSkunk
Kazegin
Darkwolfe

And as soon as I get some more information, I will send a share to Stripes_Roshal as promised.

Outside of some trolling, there have been a few snags.  PayPal closed the account I had been using to collect and transfer funds because using PayPal for purposes of "Gaming", even if it means a raffle where all proceeds went to those in need, violated their AUP.  I was able to move the funds elsewhere, and thankfully found a way to transfer the funds without PayPal.  It limits me to only the 48 States, but I have looking into alternatives to try and make things work again.

Because of that, I had to put the April and May Raffles on hold while I try to reorganize everything.  The last thing I want to do is break my promises, and I and my team of volunteers are working to try and resolve this issue.

You may call "Scam" or "Fowl", but I can provide evidence that PayPal did indeed close the account via a screenshot if necessary.  I am not afraid of proving what I say.

Is looking to raise $1200 for 12 FA members a ludicrous amount?!

Yes it is!  But April and May saw some folks with some major issues pop up, and I wanted to help.

And apparently, so do others.

Right now the ADLM is at 370 members in only 4 months since the Club Account got started.  That's more than I ever dreamed of!  Even some admins have supported our movement.

Is the Movement perfect?  No!

It is not perfect by any means.  I am always eager to get feedback, tips, suggestions, CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms and information from everyone, yay and nay alike.  One of the big ones has been the name.  I thought "Anti-Drama Llama Movement" was a cute name, but apparently it limits the movement's efforts to FA, and the sheer mention of Drama in the name elicits thoughts that don't really fit with our M.O.

So, I've been thinking about possible names such as:

"Online Movement Against Drama"
"Online Movement Against Poverty"
"Online Movement Against Griefing"

And so on and so on.  It's not perfect, but nothing's ever perfect right out of the gate.

I'm not mad about your comments, or what you had to say, and I'm not going to create drama here either.  I went this entire post without swearing, using constant spelling errors, or behaving like a child.

For this movement to succeed, it will require some maturity, planning, and lots of work.  Frankly, I'm not afraid of any of that, and am willing to see it through.

If possible, I'd apply and get a 510(c) to make this an official Nation-recognized NPO.  But that would require far more money than what I have.  So in time, hopefully it can get there.

In the meantime, that's all I have to say for right now.  I'm open to all questions, criticisms, and so on.  Lay it on me.  I ain't afraid of no post.  

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Jealousy (May 16, 2009)

You might want to defend your side. From what I see it is not really going to well for you.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

Jealousy said:


> You might want to defend your side. From what I see it is not really going to well for you.


 
Oh I know.  I just updated my previous post with my defense and information and will take it from there.

I figure it will just be a matter of time now.

Anyway, while I'm at it, I want to thank Rehka for pointing this out to me, because otherwise I would have had no idea.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Dragoneer (May 16, 2009)

Kesteh said:


> Other than collecting money and being a club account, I see this 'movement' doing nothing.


Personally, I think my issue is that they're acting as a charity, taking money for a cause... but aren't registered as a charity. I'm not lawyer, but I think there may be some legal issues with that. Granted, I've not (as of yet) taken any action in regards to this, but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea for any one person to be acting as a "bank" for the people who need the money, then issuing out donations to those in need.

In fact, there's a lot of liability in that.


----------



## AshleyAshes (May 16, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> Lots of people were miserable.


 
Welcome to the fandom built on escapist fantasies.



OtakuMan24 said:


> Many members of FA are unemployed or have been recently laid off from work.


 
A signifigant portion of the furry fandom are students or in that age range anyway.  Unemployment is common.



OtakuMan24 said:


> Many FA members have disabilities, both physical and mental which impair their daily lives.


 
Disabilities and mental issues which they have largely diagnosed themselves and often use as an excuse for their bahavour.  The majority are not making any effort to treat these conditions, especially those who figured out their 'condition' by reading a wikipedia article.



OtakuMan24 said:


> Many FA members are depressed for one reason or another.


 
The furry fandom is signifigantly young and depressed or confused emotions can be common.  They are also primarily whieny white middle class kids who have no idea 'depressing' life can actually be.



OtakuMan24 said:


> Many FA members get overly dramatic over small, silly things.


 
This is a childish behavour that should be corrected not sympatised for,



OtakuMan24 said:


> Many FA members come here to voice their problems in hopes that their FA friends will sympathize and share encouraging words.


 
And the furry fandom willingly enables these activities which only results in them whining more and more.



OtakuMan24 said:


> I also learned many FA members can be cruel.


 
Some of us are just sick of all of the above.

Asside from the unemployment issues, I don't see how basicly giving away money deals with all these other issues which are largely psychological in nature.  You don't give a kid cake whenever he gets sad cause it doesn't help his problems and you're just making him *fat*.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

Dragoneer said:


> Personally, I think my issue is that they're acting as a charity, taking money for a cause... but aren't registered as a charity. I'm not lawyer, but I think there may be some legal issues with that. Granted, I've not (as of yet) taken any action in regards to this, but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea for any one person to be acting as a "bank" for the people who need the money, then issuing out donations to those in need.
> 
> In fact, there's a lot of liability in that.


 
You do have a point.  Ideally, I would like to get this registered as a charity, but the filing fee for a 501(c) can be as high as $750 or even more depending on state.  (In the state of Ohio, where I am, it can easily be more)

If possible, I'd like this to be something beyond FA that can benefit multiple people.  Or if not its own charity, then associate with a pre-existing charity.

Right now, it's a grassroots effort that has yet to file all the legal documentation.  I think the problem and liability would come about if someone felt that their donations were being squandered for purposes they do not approve of.  In situations such as that, it would definitely be liable.

I must say that after the recent issues with PayPal, I'm thinking that the current raffle method being used to raise funds for those in need is going to be retired.  Too much work, risk, and liability.  Instead of providing a middle man, I think a better idea would be to have a system where donations go directly from the ticket purchaser to the person in need, so they know exactly where how they will be distributed.

It's a work in progress, but one that will work better and be less risky.

So far, of those that have participated, I have not heard any major complaints from those who were receiving funds and those that are donating funds.  But you are right, Neer, that this system, without the legal documentation fully filled out, could be a liability, and one I would rather not have to deal with since it's only me and a handful of others organizing all of the Movement's efforts.

Perhaps a need to scale back and re-evaluate will help fix these issues.

Furthermore, I want to work with the admins on this and see this succeed.  If there's something that doesn't mesh well with the admins, I am more than happy to work with you to keep this Movement going.

I am not above taking suggestions and valid criticisms.

I think by the end of May, this will be the last raffle, and I'll shift gears to something that will be more direct for the recipients.

Thanks for the suggestion.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Dragoneer (May 16, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> I think by the end of May, this will be the last raffle, and I'll shift gears to something that will be more direct for the recipients.


And raffles can not be hosted on FA or the forums because they /ARE/ illegal unless you /ARE/ a registered charity and have the proper forms. Raffles are considered a form of gambling under the "Games of Chance" clause, and are not permitted. FA can not allow raffles to be hosted on the site, and those we WILL shut down to comply with legal policies.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Welcome to the fandom built on escapist fantasies.


 
But is it all built on Escapist fantasies?  Sure there are a lot of that around here, but to give it all a blanket generalization seems kind of unfair to those who are not.  Take Shawntae Howard for example.



AshleyAshes said:


> A signifigant portion of the furry fandom are students or in that age range anyway. Unemployment is common.


 
A very good point.  I feel that by helping these students find the Unemployment resources in their neck of the World, then they can get going on getting themselves on their feet. 



AshleyAshes said:


> Disabilities and mental issues which they have largely diagnosed themselves and often use as an excuse for their behavior. The majority are not making any effort to treat these conditions, especially those who figured out their 'condition' by reading a wikipedia article.


 
While the anonymity of the internet makes mental conditions an easy scape goat, I myself was diagnosed with my condition by a Doctor, I see and have seen a psychologist and gotten assistance for it, and I take medication too.  Sometimes trying to understand it and what it does can be difficult for those that do legitimately have it.

To say that everyone who mentions it is a fraud would be quite a disservice to those that have it.  Technicolor Pie, for example, has made her Asperger's Syndrome public and has dealt with it.  I feel that those who do have and have adapted to these conditions can help others who have it.  I figure that could be a form of positive networking.



AshleyAshes said:


> The furry fandom is signifigantly young and depressed or confused emotions can be common. They are also primarily whieny white middle class kids who have no idea 'depressing' life can actually be.


 
Quite a few are also Black, Asian, British, Australian, Latino, and hail from a wide variety of backgrounds.  Some of the people who I have come acrossed that have whined and complained about emotions, homosexuality, and so one were actually Black.



AshleyAshes said:


> This is a childish behavour that should be corrected not sympatised for,


 
I agree.  I never said that it should sympathized, but I also feel it doesn't deserve to be mocked either.  A better way, if you ask me, is to try and help them correct them in a positive manner.  If someone explains to them how they are over-reacting and why what they are fussing about is no big deal, then it helps that person learn and move on.

If people actually offered to help, I think it would make things better.



AshleyAshes said:


> And the furry fandom willingly enables these activities which only results in them whining more and more.


 
People have issues that they want to get off their chest.  If you don't want to hear about it, then just don't read the journal.  And if they didn't voice their opinions here, where would they?  People voice their woes and troubles all the time on other forums and communities other than FA.  The only common factor here is that these people are furs or have an interest in the fandom.  On other sites, it could be the same thing with Star Wars, Star Trek, Anime, Manga, you name it.

Why chastise those that come here?



AshleyAshes said:


> Some of us are just sick of all of the above.


 
So am I.  I just have a different method of dealing with it.  Instead of ignoring or bashing them, I'm trying to help them.



AshleyAshes said:


> Aside from the unemployment issues, I don't see how basicly giving away money deals with all these other issues which are largely psychological in nature. You don't give a kid cake whenever he gets sad cause it doesn't help his problems and you're just making him *fat*.


 
I should point out that I don't constantly give hand outs to the same person over and over.  Ideally, I want any funds a person receives to be used as a means to get over a hurdle.  Let's say a one-time thing happens such as a car-accident or roof leaks.  I'd help raise funds to repair the damage that they otherwise could not afford so they can keep living and try and make things better for themselves.

Another example would be those who have a stack of bills, and are afraid about what will happen.  Instead of constantly paying for their bills, funds raised would be a time-extension to allow them to find and file with the local state and federal agencies that help those in economic straits out.  If possible, I'd like to see them have enough time to follow through on these and get the help they need.

Now if they don't, then there's nothing I can do about it.  But I figure they at least deserve one shot.

Anyway, that's my response.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

Dragoneer said:


> And raffles can not be hosted on FA or the forums because they /ARE/ illegal unless you /ARE/ a registered charity and have the proper forms. Raffles are considered a form of gambling under the "Games of Chance" clause, and are not permitted. FA can not allow raffles to be hosted on the site, and those we WILL shut down to comply with legal policies.


 
Hmm...

I see.

Well in that case, as much as I hate to do it, I'll have to shut down the April-May raffle I had been holding and think about some other ways to try and assist those in need.

As for the funds raised so far... I wonder if I should go ahead and donate them to those who I've already said I would to... or try and refund those that made the donations.

What do you think, Neer?

And believe you me, I do not want to be doing anything illegal here.  Although I think I get why other raffles on FA are permitted because they are not accepting cash for them.

Anyway, I'll be making an update on that tomorrow since it's quite late on my end (I'm actually surprised you're up at this hour).  I'll ask the folks who donated what they want me to do with their donations.

And also see if I can work something out to do fundraisers in the future.

Oh, and while we're at it, perhaps you can answer a question of mine.  What methods of fundraisers for those on FA would be acceptable?

I know many folks post their PayPal links on their FA pages for donations, not to mention ChipIn.

What would and what would not be allowed to be hosted on FA right now?

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Dragoneer (May 16, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> I wonder if I should go ahead and donate them to those who I've already said I would to... or try and refund those that made the donations.
> 
> What do you think, Neer?


I would rather remain impartial to this issue, and as such can not offer an opinion on that.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

Dragoneer said:


> I would rather remain impartial to this issue, and as such can not offer an opinion on that.


 
Ahh, gotcha.

In that case, tomorrow when I wake up, I will post on the ADLM account page that due to legal issues that have been brought to my attention, I have to regretfully shut down the raffle in order to avoid possible liability issues.

For the donations to the April and May raffle that have already been made, I will ask each individual donator from the month of April if they would like their donation to be split amongst the recipients, or whether they would like a refund.  I will let them know that the PayPal fees would have to be deducted from the refund since I can not retrieve them back from PayPal.

It's unfortunate, but the last thing I want to do is go and do anything illegal.

I will let them know that I still intend to find means of fundraising to assist those on FA, and will still continue my newsletter and efforts to try and organize activities to improve the FA community.  I'll just have to be more wary of what would be permissable via FA and legal codes.

Thank you for your feedback and being so polite on the matter.  I will finish this matter up tomorrow.

In the meantime, time to sleep.

Good night 'Neer.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## SammyFox (May 16, 2009)

What annoys me is that furry seems to be home to some of the worst ideas on the internet.

"Someone said my art sucks ;-; I'll start an account so I'll list everyone who wants to join and then I'll proceed to get everyone together, draw a huge bullseye mark on us, and wait for kajillion trolls to fall on us like a ton of bricks. our plan is flawless!"

Oh come on, what the f*****g f**k of a f*****g idea is this?


----------



## Rehka (May 16, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> Anyway, while I'm at it, I want to thank Rehka for pointing this out to me, because otherwise I would have had no idea.
> 
> ~Otaku-Man



You're welcome sir ^^


----------



## Takun (May 16, 2009)

I still think that the whole idea enables and emboldens whining and drama.


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## Adrimor (May 16, 2009)

Mah boi, this hugbox is what all true dramafags strive for! Of course it does. That sort of mollycoddling is what all the Don't-Judge-Mes thrive on--and if there were only one truly despicable type of person in this world, it'd be the Don't-Judge-Me.


----------



## Armaetus (May 16, 2009)

Hm, I really hope you edit that giant journal since it's stretching downwards vertically for about 1000 lines....or just make a new journal.


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## AshleyAshes (May 16, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> I should point out that I don't constantly give hand outs to the same person over and over. Ideally, I want any funds a person receives to be used as a means to get over a hurdle. Let's say a one-time thing happens such as a car-accident or roof leaks. I'd help raise funds to repair the damage that they otherwise could not afford so they can keep living and try and make things better for themselves.
> 
> Another example would be those who have a stack of bills, and are afraid about what will happen. Instead of constantly paying for their bills, funds raised would be a time-extension to allow them to find and file with the local state and federal agencies that help those in economic straits out. If possible, I'd like to see them have enough time to follow through on these and get the help they need.


 
So there's no intention to address the cluster fuck of psychological issues that make up the majority of the fandom's drama?  Okay, I get it, this is one of those 'feel good' chairity ideas.  Results arn't important so long as you feel good while accomplishing nothing.  Cool.


----------



## SammyFox (May 16, 2009)

In a nutshell: Your little "club" will not fix anything.

I'm serious. it won't fix _anything. _In fact, it will only create more problems.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 16, 2009)

SammyFox said:


> What annoys me is that furry seems to be home to some of the worst ideas on the internet.
> 
> "Someone said my art sucks ;-; I'll start an account so I'll list everyone who wants to join and then I'll proceed to get everyone together, draw a huge bullseye mark on us, and wait for kajillion trolls to fall on us like a ton of bricks. our plan is flawless!"
> 
> Oh come on, what the f*****g f**k of a f*****g idea is this?


 
But I don't draw. And what bullseye? If you mean the name, then okay, but I am working on thinking up a new name.



SammyFox said:


> In a nutshell: Your little "club" will not fix anything.
> 
> I'm serious. it won't fix _anything. _In fact, it will only create more problems.


 
THAT I have to disagree with. Just ask Darkwolfe.



Takumi_L said:


> I still think that the whole idea enables and emboldens whining and drama.


 
Hmm, and based on some responses, I can see how.  What would really help is any suggestions you might have on how I can keep that from happening.  I feel I've done a good job of it so far, but any extra help is welcome.  



Glaice said:


> Hm, I really hope you edit that giant journal since it's stretching downwards vertically for about 1000 lines....or just make a new journal.


 
Done.



AshleyAshes said:


> So there's no intention to address the cluster fuck of psychological issues that make up the majority of the fandom's drama? Okay, I get it, this is one of those 'feel good' chairity ideas. Results arn't important so long as you feel good while accomplishing nothing. Cool.


 
Oh I DO intend to tackle those issues.  I never said I wasn't.  Believe you me, results are especially important.  Otherwise, it would feel like my efforts were in vain, and I don't want that happening.

But psychological problems are something that one man alone can not do.  It requires a lot of effort, time, discussion, careful thought, thinking, and brainstorming.  Save for a Psychology PhD, the best thing to do is point people in the right direction, give tips and advice, and be a good person.

Being a good person to others helps more than being a bad person to them.



AdriNoMa said:


> Mah boi, this hugbox is what all true dramafags strive for! Of course it does. That sort of mollycoddling is what all the Don't-Judge-Mes thrive on--and if there were only one truly despicable type of person in this world, it'd be the Don't-Judge-Me.


 
But what about those that do not judge?

~Otaku-Man

EDIT:

And it's only AFTER posting all these responses to the Quotes that I now see the "Multi-Quote" button.


----------



## Adrimor (May 16, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> But what about those that do not judge?


Perhaps you didn't get what I meant by "Don't-Judge-Me", so I'll explain a bit.

DJM-ism is sort of like alcoholism. Let me give you an example of typical DJM behavior:



> *DJM's journal: *_okay guys i didnt wanna' say anything but i cant keep it in anymore
> im a babyfur and yeah i like to wear and use diapers in public*
> i dont give a fuck if you unwatch me or hate me for this because i had to say it_
> *Enabler 1:* Hey, whatever, it's cool. Not like it's anybody else's business
> ...



Here's why it's wrong:
If you don't want to be judged, you should stop doing things that essentially beg to be mocked--or, at the VERY least, stop acting like EVERYBODY NEEDS TO KNOW about it. There will always be some knowledge about you that people *should* have, and some that they *do not want.*

* This can be a confession of pretty much any paraphilia that inspires reflexive mockery by normal people, actually. Furries don't get to mock each other, for some reason, because the fandom has to be a hugbox 9_9



> And it's only AFTER posting all these responses to the Quotes that I now see the "Multi-Quote" button.


Haven't you ever heard of tabs and Ctrl-C? Sheesh, it's 2009 >.>



OtakuMan24 said:


> What would really help is any suggestions you might have on how I can keep that from happening.


A complete and utter overhaul. Instead of enabling the dramatists by giving them e-hugs, which is exactly the opposite of what "Anti-Drama-Llama" would imply, tell them "NO." I'm likely to get flames by the dozen for believing this, if I get any reply at all, but about 99% of furries need to _just grow up._ If you can make the movement work to _that_ end instead of being a near-bottomless source of enablers, I'm pretty sure we won't have problems.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 17, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> A complete and utter overhaul. Instead of enabling the dramatists by giving them e-hugs, which is exactly the opposite of what "Anti-Drama-Llama" would imply, tell them "NO." I'm likely to get flames by the dozen for believing this, if I get any reply at all, but about 99% of furries need to _just grow up._ If you can make the movement work to _that_ end instead of being a near-bottomless source of enablers, I'm pretty sure we won't have problems.


 
No flames from me, mi amigo.  I actually understand your position.  A pattern that I've been noticing among FA is that those with the most angst and drama are those that are young, still have the Mature Filter Locked on them, and have yet to really get out there and experience life.

While I may not have as much experience as someone else, I have learned quite a bit at 26 since I was 16.

Some of these issues will resolve themselves over time as emotional maturity kicks in for the younger generation of FA community members.  However, as we reach veteran, and for some, grey-fur status, I think that instead of expressing anger and frustration at the "DJMs", I think a matter of patience is required.

If they are coming out as a babyfur on FA, then would that not be an appropriate place to admit it?  Saying it elsewhere might be even more awkward.

Even if someone were to come back at you with a posse of enablers, the simple fact is that you can be the bigger person and not let it get to you.  You can make the point and explain why they could be putting themselves at risk for their actions.

We are the mentors of the next generation, and as such, I would hope that we will help, not shun those who have yet to get to where we are now.

I don't expect to hug them, but I will not turn my back on them either.

~Otaku-Man


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## Ainoko (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> No flames from me, mi amigo.  I actually understand your position.  A pattern that I've been noticing among FA is that those with the most angst and drama are those that are young, still have the Mature Filter Locked on them, and have yet to really get out there and experience life.
> 
> While I may not have as much experience as someone else, I have learned quite a bit at 26 since I was 16.
> 
> ...



Amen to that. You are right that most are under 18, and they have yet to experience lifes ups and downs. What I am getting tired of is hearing that your charity is the wrong thing for the community, that, I beleive is completely wrong. As I stated in a thread that is now locked, I have heard the rally cries for those of us in the fandom, to step up to the plate and come up with ideas to improve our image with the public at large. Yeah, donating proceeds from the furcons to animal charities is one step, but what about those of us in the community? Your movement is the first major step in that direction, however, as you have stated, you are needing a different name for the movement. I couldn't agree more on that, knowing what the various states have to offer for health and mental issues is a great way to help those who need such help.

People like you are alway shot down because you feel the need to provide help for those who need it. Don't give up and stay on the straight and narrow.


----------



## Adrimor (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> No flames from me, mi amigo.


I wasn't expecting them from you. You seem to be mature, if a bit idealistic.



> A pattern that I've been noticing among FA is that those with the most angst and drama are those that are young . . . and have yet to really get out there and experience life.


Furries, dude--'nuff said =P



> Some of these issues will resolve themselves over time as emotional maturity kicks in for the younger generation of FA community members.  However, as we reach veteran, and for some, grey-fur status, I think that instead of expressing anger and frustration at the "DJMs", I think a matter of patience is required.
> 
> If they are coming out as a babyfur on FA, then would that not be an appropriate place to admit it?


No, it isn't.
An _appropriate_ place to admit it would be on an infantililst community-site--NOT on a public FA journal--and certainly not pretending to want input on the subject when the only real reason for making the journal is to prove somebody wrong for telling you not to.



> Saying it elsewhere might be even more awkward.


Awkwardness is your mind's way of telling you to think before you speak.



> Even if someone were to come back at you with a posse of enablers, the simple fact is that you can be the bigger person and not let it get to you.  You can make the point and explain why they could be putting themselves at risk for their actions.


I've _tried_ that, many times.
It. Does. Not. _Work._

Look...let's say you really, really want to do activity X.
One friend says X is a bad idea.
Ten (or more) others say X is awwwright.
The one friend gives many logical and well-reasoned explanations as to why X is a bad idea.
The others form a hugbox and attack the one friend to defend your decision to do X.
Now, X can be anything from wearing a belt with suspenders to snorting your dead grandmother's ashes--but it takes a lot of willpower to ignore the eleven voices (including your own) telling you to do it and instead listen to the one telling you not to. And even if you might, the dramatists simply don't _have_ that level of maturity--that's why they baww in the first place.

I really hope you're right about the maturity kicking in--but in my admittedly less-than-great experience, people don't better themselves until they have to.



Ainoko said:


> People like you are alway shot down because you feel the need to provide help for those who need it. Don't give up and stay on the straight and narrow.


You have something on your nose.


----------



## AshleyAshes (May 17, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> No, it isn't.
> An _appropriate_ place to admit it would be on an infantililst community-site--NOT on a public FA journal--and certainly not pretending to want input on the subject when the only real reason for making the journal is to prove somebody wrong for telling you not to.


 
Communities which are infact quite easy to find by Google.  You can find communities revolving around most interests, quirks, fetishes or subcultures.  A babyfur would do far better on an infantalist site.  Not only that but then people like me who don't like seeing furries push every oddity front and center in the 'general area' of the furry fandom.  Meanwhile, if they are discussing it on an infantalist or specificly baby-fur site one would have no grounds to complain because they'd only be seeing it if they went to those sites.

It would also negate having members of the fandom, going 'Oh god' and logging it on ED after some furry turns into a babyfurfagretard that won't shut up about it.

This is one of the major sources of drama in the fandom, an utter failure to understand what is and isn't appropriate and where it might be appropriate instead.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 17, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> You have something on your nose.


 
Oye oye.  I don't mind if you coming at me direct with your concerns and criticisms, but no need to call those who want to defend me and the movement brown nosers.

Going back to your "Enabler" comparison, I think the support I have gotten is great, but I don't think they are coddling or hug-boxing me.  Before I even started the movement, I was barely a blip on the FA radar.  People who I have never met and don't even know have come with an interest in the movement.  Could a total stranger be an enabler?

If they want to support the cause, then I say let them do what they want to do.  I do not ask for others to not judge me.  If I am judged, I am more than willing to defend myself, by myself, for myself (and for the Movement).  However, during times like these, I would appreciate it if you not shoot down those who support me either.

I think it would only be fair.  



AshleyAshes said:


> This is one of the major sources of drama in the fandom, an utter failure to understand what is and isn't appropriate and where it might be appropriate instead.


 
Hmm, although at the same time, it could be said that there is nothing on FA or within the fandom that says this website is NOT the place to voice such things.  It is impartial to it, neither decrying, nor welcoming the various niches that fill the furry community.

Babyfurs, macros, micros, dragons, fursuiters, transformationers, music makers, artists, bondage fetishists, foot fetishists, Mobians, and more all inhabit FA.

To say that one niche is not welcome here, even if that niche has a small, but collected group of members within the fur community, is rather harsh.  Who are we to say that babyfurs are not allowed on FA?  If it was Dragoneer after an agreement with the other FA admins, that's one thing.

But we are community members of equal standing.  The only thing that really separates us are niche and age.  That's it.

Here on FA, we often don't know a person's real gender, ethnicity, beliefs, politics, history, and then some.  Only our niche shines through, and while people try to hide it, age also shows.

So, unless it is clearly stated what is and what is not allowed as far as niches go, then who are we to judge?

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Verin Asper (May 17, 2009)

I say go back to the original idea for what you made the ADLM was for, the raffle idea which neer said was illegal was never a good idea.

you guys hearts was in the right place, wanting to help furs out, just massivly went it about wrong.


----------



## Verin Asper (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> So, unless it is clearly stated what is and what is not allowed as far as niches go, then who are we to judge?
> 
> ~Otaku-Man


...the same group...the furries in the furry fandom


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> But I don't draw. And what bullseye? If you mean the name, then okay, but I am working on thinking up a new name.



Idea.

Draw. 

FA is supposed to be about the art, it's an art based community. The purpose of clubs are for art based ideas. Otherwise you just created a waste of myspace. That's not the purpose of FA.


----------



## TakeWalker (May 17, 2009)

Next stop: Anti-Anti-Drama Llama Movement. :V


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 17, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> FA is supposed to be about the art, it's an art based community. The purpose of clubs are for art based ideas. Otherwise you just created a waste of myspace. That's not the purpose of FA.


 
I'm sorry you feel that way.  That completely snubs the writers and music makers, not to mention the Watchers and Art Whores (of which there are catagories for membership on FA).

If it was not the purpose of FA, then why do such catagories exist?  (And am I really taking up your space?)



TakeWalker said:


> Next stop: Anti-Anti-Drama Llama Movement. :V


 
Aye... the irony of it all.  If that does happen, I will sigh in disbelief.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.  That completely snubs the writers and music makers, not to mention the Watchers and Art Whores (of which there are catagories for membership on FA).
> 
> If it was not the purpose of FA, then why do such catagories exist?  (And am I really taking up your space?)



Are you trying to say that written works and musical compositions can't be critiqued and scrutinized like visual art?  FA still holds up to its image as an art based community if that is still accomplished, which it is.  It's only when drama-whores decide to bring their personal lives into everything before their art that makes people pissed off.

It's like I told someone else who brought this up in another thread, the entire thing seems childish.  From the name of the group to the way it conducts itself, it just seems like a community of people willing to enable pretty much any kind of behavior, as has been already said.  The other thing I worry about is people actually giving money to this.  Listen, I'm all for charity for the right reasons, but people who are just generally "down in the dumps" isn't one of them.  

There's a little something called building character which somehow in our society has been overlooked in favor of people being spoon fed compliments and unwarranted support.  This seems like yet another example of this, only this time you're willing to give money to these people!  And what exactly are these people doing with the money?  In the case of the baby fur bawwing his eyes out, I doubt he's using the money given to him for car payments or food shopping in favor of buying more adult diapers.  (Ugggh, makes me skeive just typing that.)  I don't see what benefit you're providing by just handing out money.  Do the right thing and refund the money people have sent.

tl:dr Arshes is 100% correct.


----------



## Adrimor (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> Oye oye.  I don't mind if you coming at me direct with your concerns and criticisms, but no need to call those who want to defend me and the movement brown nosers.


Defending another person against things nobody's even saying is the perfect reason to insult somebody.



> Going back to your "Enabler" comparison, I think the support I have gotten is great, but I don't think they are coddling or hug-boxing me.


Never did I say they were. I'm saying that your "movement" encourages people to form a hugbox around the very drama-llamas you profess to help.

It's like giving a suicidal kid a razorblade and saying "go nuts."



> Before I even started the movement, I was barely a blip on the FA radar.  People who I have never met and don't even know have come with an interest in the movement.  Could a total stranger be an enabler?


Of course. But nobody is talking about YOU being enabled in the first place.

To hear you tell it, it seems almost like the movement's all about you...

Of course, it's entirely possible that you don't know what I mean by "enabler", either.

You should really learn to use Wikipedia, at the very least.


> Enabling is a term with a double meaning.
> 
> As a positive term, it references patterns of interaction which allow individuals to develop and grow. These may be on any scale, for example within the family, or in wider society as "Enabling acts" designed to empower some group, or create a new authority for a (usually governmental) body.
> 
> _It is also used in counseling and in the broader context of problematic behavior, to signify *dysfunctional approaches that are intended to help but in fact may perpetuate the problem*. A common theme of enabling in this latter sense is that third parties take responsibility, blame, or make accommodations for a person's harmful conduct (often with the best of intentions, or from fear or insecurity which inhibits action). The practical effect is that the person themselves does not have to do so, and is shielded from awareness of the harm it may do, and the need or pressure to change._



I'm saying that your movement is a beacon for enablers, and that you, by starting and perpetuating it, are yourself an enabler.



> If they want to support the cause, then I say let them do what they want to do.  I do not ask for others to not judge me.  If I am judged, I am more than willing to defend myself, by myself, for myself (and for the Movement).  However, during times like these, I would appreciate it if you not shoot down those who support me either.


I would appreciate it if he would make useful and well-reasoned arguments--and I would _very much _appreciate it if you would stop pretending all my statements to you are about you--but it seems neither of those is in the cards either.



> Hmm, although at the same time, it could be said that there is nothing on FA or within the fandom that says this website is NOT the place to voice such things.  It is impartial to it, neither decrying, nor welcoming the various niches that fill the furry community.


_Common sense_ doesn't need to be codified. See the rest of this post for elaboration.



> Babyfurs, macros, micros, dragons, fursuiters, transformationers, music makers, artists, bondage fetishists, foot fetishists, Mobians, and more all inhabit FA.


Wholly irrelevant. There are some things that the majority of the fandom is more-or-less okay with, and some things that it isn't.

Compare fchan's alternative board with it's alt-hard board--the former is where things like bondage and tentacle smut go--things that aren't techincally "normal", but don't generally induce the same sort of knee-jerk reactions as gore, vomit, watersports, scat, *babyfur*, and the like do.

Not all fetishes and paraphilias are equal. There is a difference between indifference and dislike, and yet another between dislike and disgust.



> To say that one niche is not welcome here, even if that niche has a small, but collected group of members within the fur community, is rather harsh.  Who are we to say that babyfurs are not allowed on FA?


Do you have some sort of reading difficulties, or are you just a big fan of straw men? I ask merely for the information.

There are places where things are appropriate and places where the same things are not appropriate. Supposing you were a zoophile, would you go to a rally of, oh, Christian animal-rights activists to announce it? I should hope not. Would you even announce it to everyone within earshot at a shopping mall? Hopefully not. So why should the FA userbase at large be expected to conduct itself differently than the society that it belongs to?



> But we are community members of equal standing.  The only thing that really separates us are niche and age.  That's it.


And never once did I say otherwise. Would you mind addressing my actual arguments once in a while?



> So, unless it is clearly stated what is and what is not allowed as far as niches go, then who are we to judge?


You're missing my entire point. Not to be rude, but maybe you should read twice or thrice through my posts in the future.

_Nobody_ is arguing for the banning of babyfurs or those suffering from any other such mental disabilities. *However,* they are prime causes of drama. Once again, you cannot shout "I'm gay!" at a Baptist church fair and reasonably expect not to be regarded with judgement, so why should announcing "I like to shit myself" on a site where most members _don't_ be regarded as somehow different? Like it or not, people do judge each other--and whining about it after you bring that judgement upon yourself is a perfect example of causing drama.



AshleyAshes said:


> furries push every oddity front and center in the 'general area' of the furry fandom.


Yyyyyyyep.
To be fair, it's annoying when other groups do it too.
I mean, I first met a guy with whom I actually get along now by telling him not to attention-whore with a picture he drew of him and his mate playin' with some nonev animals' bits and then confessing that they've thought about it. Though he actually turned out to be a reasonable guy...apparently the thing was meant as an apology.
Still, that's the difference between drama-llamas and normal furs, really.
Some of us have a sense of dignity and of decency--and then there are those who feel the need to show everybody their scratches from when their dog mounted 'em without socks.


----------



## Keo (May 17, 2009)

i've browsed around and checked out the anti-drama llama thing before.

the economy just happens to be going to hell, and sure, some people have it worse then others. but it isn't particularly hard to make up a bogus situation in order to get money or attention these days, especially on the internet. especially with a bunch of bleeding heart furries ready and willing to be a shoulder to cry in and a wallet to steal from so they can feel more involved with the community.
it's not hard to find someone in your own neighborhood in need of a dollar or two. there are real charities for people in need. and i bet you know someone personally who could use some financial help, whether they'd want to admit it or not.

http://www.furaffinity.net/user/tanukiyasha/ is one of the people on the receiving donations list. why would i want to give my money to a charity that throws money around to people that don't even spend it wisely.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/729511/
$3, $12, $60, it doesn't matter. these people that donate are giving their money away so these people in such _desperate _need of money can go blow it on DS lites and transformer toys. a perfect example of why people shouldn't give into this "movement" right away.

i do think it would be a good idea if it were better set up. there are a lot of people that actually do need help, on this site and off it. i just don't know if the personal crisis checklist sign up sheet should determine whether or not you're worthy of receiving free dough every month.


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.  That completely snubs the writers and music makers, not to mention the Watchers and Art Whores (of which there are catagories for membership on FA).
> 
> If it was not the purpose of FA, then why do such catagories exist?  (And am I really taking up your space?)
> 
> ~Otaku-Man



Writers and music makers are artists. Watchers are adding ART to their favorites, join clubs that are ART related. Art Whores are collecting ART. 

Your club is about anti-drama. It doesn't belong. That is what myspace is for. Or whatever the heck the furry equivalent is. 

There are side benefits to being part of the art community like journals and stuff that may cause drama, however, having a club basing it on the "side benefit" rather than the main purpose of the site does not belong on the site.

A person having a club for artists in the same area makes sense, they're just a gathering a group of artists, even if they specialize in furry since FA is furry themed (it allows other art that doesn't violate the TOS/AUP/Submission Agreement). 

A person making a "I love critiques" is also a about art.

A person having a club based on a certain kind of genre or theme in art is acceptable.

Anti-Drama movement? What?


----------



## Adrimor (May 17, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> That is what myspace is for. Or whatever the heck the furry equivalent is.


I believe that would be LiveJournal, ironically enough.
Lord knows nobody uses FurSpace XD


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 17, 2009)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Are you trying to say that written works and musical compositions can't be critiqued and scrutinized like visual art?


 
On the contrary, I am saying that they can be. My interpretation of Arshes' statement was that they were saying that the only art that constitutes "furry art" is of the visual variety.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> FA still holds up to its image as an art based community if that is still accomplished, which it is. It's only when drama-whores decide to bring their personal lives into everything before their art that makes people pissed off.


 
Maybe so, but it doesn't piss everyone off. From the sound of the responses, it would seem you would be much happier if there was no journal feature at all; just a method of posting art with no room for discussion, commenting, or otherwise.

Like an art gallery.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> It's like I told someone else who brought this up in another thread, the entire thing seems childish. From the name of the group to the way it conducts itself, it just seems like a community of people willing to enable pretty much any kind of behavior, as has been already said.


 
Key word being "Seems like". I myself am not one for enabling ALL behavior. Criminal activity, childishness, trolling, and other negative behaviors are things I myself look down on. I prefer to promote and enable positive behaviors that are constructive, helpful, and benefit the community. These are 

To that, you can say I also enable those who are into things you don't agree with. But who am I to judge others based on their preferences. If that's what they want to do, then so be it.

When writing out guidelines for the Movement, these are principles I incorporated to try and promote a tolerant and peaceful environment. 



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The other thing I worry about is people actually giving money to this. Listen, I'm all for charity for the right reasons, but people who are just generally "down in the dumps" isn't one of them.


 
Not just down in the dumps, but facing financial hardships. A good example would be the case of Darkwolfe. He lives in a trailer home and came into a pinch where a benefit payment (he is physically disabled) was going to be too late for him to make his trailer part rent payment and trailer home payment. If he missed either of those, he would be out on the streets. He would die if that happened since he needs electricity to run the air respirator that ensures he doesn't die from sleep apneia.

Thanks to the efforts of the Movement and its encouragement, he was able to get some kind donations from a local church, some generous FA members, a friend from out-of-state, and was able to make his payments. He now has his budget under control and needs absolutely no other help.

The funds raised by the ADLM were able to help get his surrogate daughter (not real daughter, but she's like a daughter to him) the gas money to drive out to live with him so she didn't have to live out of her truck.

They are now quite happy and the ADLM helped make that happen by given them hope.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> There's a little something called building character which somehow in our society has been overlooked in favor of people being spoon fed compliments and unwarranted support.


 
You mean like bank bailouts?



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> This seems like yet another example of this, only this time you're willing to give money to these people! And what exactly are these people doing with the money? In the case of the baby fur bawwing his eyes out, I doubt he's using the money given to him for car payments or food shopping in favor of buying more adult diapers. (Ugggh, makes me skeive just typing that.)


 
But you don't know that and can't be sure.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I don't see what benefit you're providing by just handing out money. Do the right thing and refund the money people have sent.


 
Since I had to cancel the raffle, I did write to all the people that did donate and gave them the option to refund or leave the funds as is so I could distribute them.

As of this writing, the messages I have received have all granted permission to keep the funds and use them as necessary. By giving them the offer of a refund, I have done the right thing. And if you say that I didn't because I gave them a choice, remember that the final decision was theirs, not mine.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> tl:dr Arshes is 100% correct.


 
I disagree.



AdriNoMa said:


> Defending another person against things nobody's even saying is the perfect reason to insult somebody.


 
Except I believe that it is not even a good reason to insult somebody. I find insulting others to be terribly childish, and I only insult those who I feel deserve it (i.e., people I know personally and for a long time).



AdriNoMa said:


> Never did I say they were. I'm saying that your "movement" encourages people to form a hugbox around the very drama-llamas you profess to help.
> 
> It's like giving a suicidal kid a razorblade and saying "go nuts."


 
Can you show me how it is doing that?



AdriNoMa said:


> Of course. But nobody is talking about YOU being enabled in the first place.
> 
> To hear you tell it, it seems almost like the movement's all about you...


 
Well I am the Movement's founder, technically it's President and CEO more or less, and have been running it almost solo since it began.

I wouldn't say that it's about me, but rather an extension of me and my beliefs. The goal is to try and enhance and strengthen the FA community. If you disagree with my beliefs and way of thinking, then that's okay. If you have suggestions on how I can improve the Movement, I'm willing to listen.

But to call for the end of the Movement is a bit much if you ask me. Not to mention it doesn't really provide a solution.



AdriNoMa said:


> Of course, it's entirely possible that you don't know what I mean by "enabler", either.
> 
> You should really learn to use Wikipedia, at the very least.


 
Was that insult really necessary? I mean I get the concept of what you're saying, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting of what you're trying to say. Still, no need to be rude.



AdriNoMa said:


> I'm saying that your movement is a beacon for enablers, and that you, by starting and perpetuating it, are yourself an enabler.


 
Okay. What am I enabling then?



AdriNoMa said:


> I would appreciate it if he would make useful and well-reasoned arguments--and I would _very much _appreciate it if you would stop pretending all my statements to you are about you--but it seems neither of those is in the cards either.


 
Does that include the insults? I'm pretty sure they were towards me. Like I said, the Movement is an extension of myself, so attacks at the Movement are attacks to me as well. I feel the need to defend it and myself.

Still, I really would like to know why you are getting so angry about this. Why is it so important to you?



AdriNoMa said:


> _Common sense_ doesn't need to be codified. See the rest of this post for elaboration.


 
Oh I disagree. If there's one thing about common sense, is that it is anything but common. There are members on FA from all over the world, and no one place on Earth has the same common sense of another.

It seems to me that you expect what is common sense to you to be common sense for everyone else. To me, that seems a bit extreme.



AdriNoMa said:


> Wholly irrelevant. There are some things that the majority of the fandom is more-or-less okay with, and some things that it isn't.


 
But if the majority is opposed to a certain niche, what right do they have to impose limits on another's speech or interests?



AdriNoMa said:


> Compare fchan's alternative board with it's alt-hard board--the former is where things like bondage and tentacle smut go--things that aren't techincally "normal", but don't generally induce the same sort of knee-jerk reactions as gore, vomit, watersports, scat, *babyfur*, and the like do.
> 
> Not all fetishes and paraphilias are equal. There is a difference between indifference and dislike, and yet another between dislike and disgust.


 
It sounds to me like there should be a separate FA site devoted just to those who are into the more extreme niches. At least, that's what it sounds like you are suggesting.



AdriNoMa said:


> Do you have some sort of reading difficulties, or are you just a big fan of straw men? I ask merely for the information.


 
Straw Men? I'm not sure I follow what you mean by that. Still, I know you are trying to insult me. I understand what you are saying. I merely disagree with it.



AdriNoMa said:


> There are places where things are appropriate and places where the same things are not appropriate. Supposing you were a zoophile, would you go to a rally of, oh, Christian animal-rights activists to announce it? I should hope not. Would you even announce it to everyone within earshot at a shopping mall? Hopefully not. So why should the FA userbase at large be expected to conduct itself differently than the society that it belongs to?


 
Because FA is a safe-haven for society's outcasts. The society at large has a very negative view of furries. They are mocked, viewed as outcasts, and seen as overall weirdos. The majority of furry artwork that is published is erotic, smutty, and pornographic. Those that aren't often try and separate themselves from being called furry, preferring "Funny Animals" instead.

To think that furry in general is acceptable in mainstream society right at this instant is a foolish belief.



AdriNoMa said:


> And never once did I say otherwise. Would you mind addressing my actual arguments once in a while?


 
I am. I am also disagreeing with them. Even if there are separations based on age and niche, that is no excuse to insult, mock, troll, or hate on them. If you believe that you have the right to hate on babyfurs simply because of their personal preferences, then shame on you.



AdriNoMa said:


> You're missing my entire point. Not to be rude, but maybe you should read twice or thrice through my posts in the future.


 
If I didn't, I wouldn't be responding to you in an itemized fashion like this.



AdriNoMa said:


> _Nobody_ is arguing for the banning of babyfurs or those suffering from any other such mental disabilities. *However,* they are prime causes of drama.


 
Okay.



AdriNoMa said:


> Once again, you cannot shout "I'm gay!" at a Baptist church fair and reasonably expect not to be regarded with judgement, so why should announcing "I like to shit myself" on a site where most members _don't_ be regarded as somehow different?


 
I find it funny that you would compare FA, a site that houses a good share of adult artwork, to a Baptist church.



AdriNoMa said:


> Like it or not, people do judge each other--and whining about it after you bring that judgement upon yourself is a perfect example of causing drama.


 
And we as human beings do not have the right to judge others. Unless you are a judge in a court room and have to make decisions based on legal issues, then you have no right to judge others. While you may be right that some of the more extreme niches argue and complain, it is also partly YOUR fault because you judge, shun, and be prejudiced towards them. If you did not judge, then they would not complain.

I see YOU as being more a source of drama than them.



Keo said:


> i've browsed around and checked out the anti-drama llama thing before.
> 
> the economy just happens to be going to hell, and sure, some people have it worse then others. but it isn't particularly hard to make up a bogus situation in order to get money or attention these days, especially on the internet. especially with a bunch of bleeding heart furries ready and willing to be a shoulder to cry in and a wallet to steal from so they can feel more involved with the community.
> 
> it's not hard to find someone in your own neighborhood in need of a dollar or two. there are real charities for people in need. and i bet you know someone personally who could use some financial help, whether they'd want to admit it or not.


 
I agree that appealing to local charities is important. I actually encourage people to seek them out first since they can help them faster than we ever could. What I like to do is help those in need FIND the charities that they may not know about to help point them in the right direction. The fundraising would be more of a supplement than a bailout.



Keo said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/user/tanukiyasha/ is one of the people on the receiving donations list. why would i want to give my money to a charity that throws money around to people that don't even spend it wisely.


 
Bare in mind that before funds go out, I've done my best to ensure that the people receiving it will actually be helped, and also show that they do need help. I also verify with their friends to make sure things match.



Keo said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/729511/
> $3, $12, $60, it doesn't matter. these people that donate are giving their money away so these people in such _desperate _need of money can go blow it on DS lites and transformer toys. a perfect example of why people shouldn't give into this "movement" right away.


 
I would not support those who need funds to purchase toys as important. If someone wants to donate to them, I won't stop them, but I would work to shift Movement focus on those who need it to survive.



Keo said:


> i do think it would be a good idea if it were better set up. there are a lot of people that actually do need help, on this site and off it. i just don't know if the personal crisis checklist sign up sheet should determine whether or not you're worthy of receiving free dough every month.


 
Every month, hardly. I make it a policy to only donate ONCE. However, since the fundraising efforts could face legal issues since we have not yet filed the essential paperwork, I am scaling that back in order to refocus efforts to more critical issues and work out a better plan.

I am glad you like the idea, and would definitely appreciate your input and help.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 17, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> Writers and music makers are artists. Watchers are adding ART to their favorites, join clubs that are ART related. Art Whores are collecting ART.


 
Makes sense.



Arshes Nei said:


> Your club is about anti-drama. It doesn't belong. That is what myspace is for. Or whatever the heck the furry equivalent is.


 
But is it not trying to improve the well-being of the ART site?



Arshes Nei said:


> There are side benefits to being part of the art community like journals and stuff that may cause drama, however, having a club basing it on the "side benefit" rather than the main purpose of the site does not belong on the site.


 
I'm sorry you feel that way.  However, I disagree with you completely, and alas you are not in a position where you can enforce such a thing.



Arshes Nei said:


> A person having a club for artists in the same area makes sense, they're just a gathering a group of artists, even if they specialize in furry since FA is furry themed (it allows other art that doesn't violate the TOS/AUP/Submission Agreement).
> 
> A person making a "I love critiques" is also a about art.
> 
> ...


 
Well I would think it would count by trying to improve the status-quo and morale or the ART site, and therefore by supporting the site members, supports art itself.

I could see your point if I was to make a club here about Chemistry, and discuss nothing but equations, formulas, and scientific theory.  It would be a completely unrelated field to anything that is going on here at this site.

However, I feel the ADLM is a club that is in support of the site's members, and therefore supports artists, which therefore supports art.

That would be my reasoning on why it is relevant.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 17, 2009)

The morale of the art site is not improved by a non related club. 

It's not argued with long quote wars. You aren't making your points then and you're not making them now.

Your club being allowed regardless of "morale reasons"  would be the same reason opposite of your club would be allowed because they believe in their own visions of "Well being" of an art site.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> On the contrary, I am saying that they can be. My interpretation of Arshes' statement was that they were saying that the only art that constitutes "furry art" is of the visual variety.



Very close-minded interpretation of art on a medium basis.  Since this is an art site which allows written works and music, it kinda goes without saying what someone means by "art" on this site.



> Maybe so, but it doesn't piss everyone off. From the sound of the responses, it would seem you would be much happier if there was no journal feature at all; just a method of posting art with no room for discussion, commenting, or otherwise.
> 
> Like an art gallery.



From the sound of your responses, it seems like you're reading things that aren't there.  I said keep your personal life to yourself while also in that post I mentioned the importance of critique.  Go read it again if you don't believe me.  When I view and comment on art, I expect explanations on what someone did, why, and how by the artist.  I don't see why it is necessary to tell complete strangers in that same public forum that so-and-so chronically wets himself or goes on a 15-page rant on politics.  That's not what an art site is for.  A journal feature makes sense to me only up to the point where it gives updates on work status or general addresses which have some sort of relation to the art they do.  Someone saying "Because of unforeseen circumstances, I won't be able to complete any work for a few weeks," is a lot more acceptable than "OMG MAH GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND LEFT ME AND MY DOG HAS CANCER AND MY MOM FOUND MY ADULT DIAPERS IMMA GO CUT MYSELF NAO  OH BTW DONATE PLZ LOL".



> Key word being "Seems like". I myself am not one for enabling ALL behavior. Criminal activity, childishness, trolling, and other negative behaviors are things I myself look down on. I prefer to promote and enable positive behaviors that are constructive, helpful, and benefit the community.



Are you talking about the community on the main site?  If so, then promote people learning the subtle art of keeping private matters to themselves.  Not everything has to be put out in the open for everyone to see.  That's not acceptable social behavior in ANY community.  You're not promoting good behavior by throwing money at your problems and expecting people to learn.

Like a federal bailout.



> To that, you can say I also enable those who are into things you don't agree with. But who am I to judge others based on their preferences. If that's what they want to do, then so be it.



You're the guy holding the money.  As such there's a responsibility that the money you give to someone actually benefits them and it doesn't get abused.  When someone is put on the waiting list for an organ donation, personal preferences ARE taken into account, like drinking or smoking habits.  Giving out cash to people who you have no way of telling are responsible with money is doing a disservice to the people who gave you money.



> Thanks to the efforts of the Movement and its encouragement, *he was able to get some kind donations from a local church, some generous FA members, a friend from out-of-state,* and was able to make his payments. He now has his budget under control and needs absolutely no other help.



Bolding that to point out the other local charity and friend who gave.  Unless there's proof that a substantial amount of the money needed was provided by ADLM helped him, I'm skeptical.  And he's a nice poster child for your 'movement' but as pointed out by Keo, it appears other recipients don't appear to be as deserving due to their impulse spending.



> But you don't know that and can't be sure.



Exactly why I wouldn't donate to your 'movement' and I encourage others not to either.  It's the same reason why I don't give money to the homeless on the streets of New York.  And since you're not a recognized charity, it gives me even more reason to do both of the things above, regardless of your poster child story.



> As of this writing, the messages I have received have all granted permission to keep the funds and use them as necessary. By giving them the offer of a refund, I have done the right thing. And if you say that I didn't because I gave them a choice, remember that the final decision was theirs, not mine.



They probably made that choice because you sold them under the pretense that their money would be going to a case as 'dire' as say Darkwolfe's.  Of course you got that money by running an ILLEGAL service.  It shouldn't have been left up to their discretion, you should have still given it back.  But kudos on still having convinced these people on keeping their scammed money.  I bet you majored in marketing.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 17, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> The morale of the art site is not improved by a non related club.
> 
> It's not argued with long quote wars. You aren't making your points then and you're not making them now.
> 
> Your club being allowed regardless of "morale reasons"  would be the same reason opposite of your club would be allowed because they believe in their own visions of "Well being" of an art site.



You want to see the ADLM be removed from FA THAT badly?!

I just don't understand why you would be so opposed to it.  What about the club for Military Spouses that Foxy Tangerine made?  You want to see that one go too?



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Very close-minded interpretation of art on a medium basis.  Since this is an art site which allows written works and music, it kinda goes without saying what someone means by "art" on this site.



I know.  I agree with you there.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> From the sound of your responses, it seems like you're reading things that aren't there.  I said keep your personal life to yourself while also in that post I mentioned the importance of critique.  Go read it again if you don't believe me.  When I view and comment on art, I expect explanations on what someone did, why, and how by the artist.  I don't see why it is necessary to tell complete strangers in that same public forum that so-and-so chronically wets himself or goes on a 15-page rant on politics.  That's not what an art site is for.  A journal feature makes sense to me only up to the point where it gives updates on work status or general addresses which have some sort of relation to the art they do.  Someone saying "Because of unforeseen circumstances, I won't be able to complete any work for a few weeks," is a lot more acceptable than "OMG MAH GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND LEFT ME AND MY DOG HAS CANCER AND MY MOM FOUND MY ADULT DIAPERS IMMA GO CUT MYSELF NAO  OH BTW DONATE PLZ LOL".



You should see CigarSkunk then.  If you want 15-page rants on politics, he's your guy.

Also, what about art that is an expression of one's feelings?  Or what about comics that are about one's life?  Just ask Technicolor Pie.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Are you talking about the community on the main site?  If so, then promote people learning the subtle art of keeping private matters to themselves.  Not everything has to be put out in the open for everyone to see.  That's not acceptable social behavior in ANY community.  You're not promoting good behavior by throwing money at your problems and expecting people to learn.
> 
> Like a federal bailout.



You are mistaken.  I do not throw money to those that have social behavior issues.  I tried to fundraise and donate money to those who were about to lose their homes.

And what is the difference between the community and the main site?  Are they not one and the same?



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> You're the guy holding the money.  As such there's a responsibility that the money you give to someone actually benefits them and it doesn't get abused.  When someone is put on the waiting list for an organ donation, personal preferences ARE taken into account, like drinking or smoking habits.  Giving out cash to people who you have no way of telling are responsible with money is doing a disservice to the people who gave you money.



That is something I have learned through this whole experience.  After careful thinking, it is this exact reason why I have canceled the current raffle and will hold off from other fundraisers until such a time as I can do something that won't cause any trouble for anyone.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Bolding that to point out the other local charity and friend who gave.  Unless there's proof that a substantial amount of the money needed was provided by ADLM helped him, I'm skeptical.  And he's a nice poster child for your 'movement' but as pointed out by Keo, it appears other recipients don't appear to be as deserving due to their impulse spending.



If someone wasted the donation from funds raised, then that would be an awful shame.  I do not approve of repeat donations as that would make the Movement just what everyone is claiming; a system too easily abused.

I just believe that everyone deserves one shot at redemption.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Exactly why I wouldn't donate to your 'movement' and I encourage others not to either.  It's the same reason why I don't give money to the homeless on the streets of New York.  And since you're not a recognized charity, it gives me even more reason to do both of the things above, regardless of your poster child story.



If you don't want to donate, that's fine by me.  I wasn't asking you too.  And I do understand your concern about the whole recognized charity thing.  I'm working on that at the moment to try and get it established as one.  It may require a name change, but it's a work in progress.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> They probably made that choice because you sold them under the pretense that their money would be going to a case as 'dire' as say Darkwolfe's.  Of course you got that money by running an ILLEGAL service.  It shouldn't have been left up to their discretion, you should have still given it back.  But kudos on still having convinced these people on keeping their scammed money.  I bet you majored in marketing.



Information Technology actually.  I find your personal attack on calling me a scammer rather harsh.  For the record, I was not aware that it was illegal, and as soon as it became knowledge that it was, I took the necessary and responsible actions.

I may not be able to change the way you feel, and if you disagree with me, that's okay.  However, I will not tolerate attempts made to sabotage or slander what I am trying to do.  You may accuse me of trying to be a fraud and a scammer, but if I'm such a bad person, then why not ask those such as Darkwolfe, Alrumia, DragonofDarkness13, Nekonorai, Sift, and the others whether I have kept my word or not.

Talk to them first and THEN tell me that I'm a fraud.  Thank you.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Armaetus (May 17, 2009)

This might be old, in case Otakuman wants to read it: http://www.bicklaw.com/InternetCharityRules.htm

Stuff may have been changed since this.


----------



## Adrimor (May 17, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> Can you show me how it is doing that?


Already did. Let's look at the replay:


AdriNoMa said:


> Look...let's say you really, really want to do activity X.
> One friend says X is a bad idea.
> Ten (or more) others say X is awwwright.
> The one friend gives many logical and well-reasoned explanations as to why X is a bad idea.
> ...



Again, your movement encourages precisely this sort of behavior--whether it means to or not. And again, it is an enabling sort of thing--keep in mind: Enabling can also refer to situations in which you mean well, but end up doing more harm than good.



> Well I am the Movement's founder, technically it's President and CEO more or less, and have been running it almost solo since it began.
> 
> I wouldn't say that it's about me, but rather an extension of me and my beliefs. The goal is to try and enhance and strengthen the FA community. If you disagree with my beliefs and way of thinking, then that's okay. If you have suggestions on how I can improve the Movement, I'm willing to listen.
> 
> But to call for the end of the Movement is a bit much if you ask me. Not to mention it doesn't really provide a solution.


One, the movement is not you. You can still be a good person even if you have a truly horrible idea.
Two, ending something that does more harm than good is a perfect solution to the problems it creates.



> Was that insult really necessary? I mean I get the concept of what you're saying, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting of what you're trying to say. Still, no need to be rude.


Perfectly necessary, considering that it wasn't meant as an insult to begin with.



> What am I enabling then?


I've already said it several times. In a word, DRAMA.
Offering free money to make dramatists stop their histrionics is like supplying a known kleptomaniac anything he wants to make him stop stealing.

More often than not, the drama they bring results from mental illness, just as is the case with a kleptomaniac's thievery. As AshleyAshes mentioned already: Narcissistic personality disorders, emotional instability, general lack of maturity, poor or nonexistent social skills...

Ultimately, you're proposing that they get money and art for being sick instead of treatment. Now, as you admitted, treatment is beyond the scope of your movement--however, by that very admission, so is helping them.



> Does that include the insults? I'm pretty sure they were towards me. Like I said, the Movement is an extension of myself, so attacks at the Movement are attacks to me as well. I feel the need to defend it and myself.


Feelings aren't always the best things to act on. If your position is flawed, defending it to the end will just make you look stubborn and anger everybody else.



> Still, I really would like to know why you are getting so angry about this. Why is it so important to you?


Because you're not only wrong, but you either misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent my points to avoid having to face that.
_Attention-whoring is not good._
Whether or not you _mean_ it to, your movement encourages precisely that. How many times must it be said...?



> Oh I disagree. If there's one thing about common sense, is that it is anything but common. There are members on FA from all over the world, and no one place on Earth has the same common sense of another.


Your rebuttal is neither clever nor relevant. 
While thigns differ from culture to culture, every major culture has some taboos in common.
Incest, for example. Or murder. Or suicide.
Or telling everybody around about what sort of sexual behaviors you and your partner(s) like to engage in.
_Not doing those things _is what I mean when I say common sense--and, hey: Every culture on this agrees that there is such a thing as too much information.
Your argument is invalid.



> It seems to me that you expect what is common sense to you to be common sense for everyone else. To me, that seems a bit extreme.


Tell me--what is so unreasonable about the idea of not telling people more than they need or even want to know?
It's part of something called "understanding personal boundaries"--which is a _vital_ social skill.



> But if the majority is opposed to a certain niche, what right do they have to impose limits on another's speech or interests?


They have the right not to be disgusted.
If something is of no artistic, informational, or practical value--such as what kind of sex toys Furry A likes, or what Furry B prefers to do in bed--they have the right not to have to deal with it, and the right to tell the people who throw it out there "No."



> It sounds to me like there should be a separate FA site devoted just to those who are into the more extreme niches. At least, that's what it sounds like you are suggesting.


Um, lrn2Google, please.

--INFANTILISM--
http://understanding.infantilism.org/how.php
http://unitedinfantilistorg.blogspot.com/
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/5838/
http://www.bedwettingabdl.com/
http://diapersrfun.com/

--ZOOPHILIA--
http://www.beastforum.com/
http://www.zoophilia.net/

...It's harder to find zoophile community sites, for some reason--but I digress. Neither of those is something for which support and community can't be found elsewhere. FA is for all furries to enjoy, not just those who think wearing diapers at 35 or being the next Mr. Hands is awwwright.



> Straw Men? I'm not sure I follow what you mean by that. Still, I know you are trying to insult me. I understand what you are saying. I merely disagree with it.


A straw man is a type of logical fallacy.
Since you've used them extensively, either you don't understand what I'm saying, or you refuse to actually address it.



> Because FA is a safe-haven for society's outcasts. The society at large has a very negative view of furries.


Incorrect. Society at large has a very negative view of _Don't-Judge-Mes_ and any other category of person who feels the need to air his dirty laundry in public.
Case in point: http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?t=42322



> The majority of furry artwork that is published is erotic, smutty, and pornographic.


Um, excuse me--do you think that's _society's_ fault, or _the artists'?_



> To think that furry in general is acceptable in mainstream society right at this instant is a foolish belief.


Because Bugs Bunny and Sonic the Hedgehog are _clearly_ banned in every English-speaking country 9_9
The only reason for the furry fandom in general to be disliked is that the furry fandom in general consists of too many attention-whores, particularly those who are DJMs.



> I am. I am also disagreeing with them. Even if there are separations based on age and niche, that is no excuse to insult, mock, troll, or hate on them. If you believe that you have the right to hate on babyfurs simply because of their personal preferences, then shame on you.


I have every right to hate them. My thoughts and attitudes are my own business. I'm not the one telling everybody to accept me or get bent if they dislike either of those--and I don't give a _damn_ about the babyfurs' personal preferences. What I hate them for is their attention-whoring.

*Stop with the straw men already.*

Once again:
*IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE JUDGED, DON'T DO THINGS THAT INCITE JUDGEMENT.*

Good lord, what is so difficult to understand about that? What is so _untenable_ about that stance? Am I the only one here who thinks it's perfectly reasonable?

I ask everybody reading this: Am I really so insane to believe in the idea of _modesty?_ Not everybody needs to know what you fap to, and most people don't _want_ to. If you choose to tell them anyway, that is your right--but it is then their right to tell you in no uncertain terms that they *do not need to know.*



> I find it funny that you would compare FA, a site that houses a good share of adult artwork, to a Baptist church.


Thank you. I thought so too.
Except that it wasn't a comparison between the two of them. Notice that although the context is different, the behavior described is almost exactly the same. On the other hand, the only real similarity between the situations is that neither audience needs to know, wants to know, or will react favorably toward what is being said.
Comparisons are there to point out similarities--but not just those between objects and groups.



> And we as human beings do not have the right to judge others.


Right is irrelevant to reality.
You can argue over intrinsic rights all you like, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what actually gets to happen and what doesn't.
Judgement takes place first and foremost in people's minds. The impulse to judge has existed in humanity for centuries, and neither you nor I can prevent or prohibit such a hardwired mental process.
Studies have found time and again that even the least judgemental people still have prejudicies and make judgements toward others.
Talk about "rights" all you like, but the fact remains that people will judge.



> Unless you are a judge in a court room and have to make decisions based on legal issues, then you have no right to judge others. While you may be right that some of the more extreme niches argue and complain, it is also partly YOUR fault because you judge, shun, and be prejudiced towards them. If you did not judge, then they would not complain.


If we did not judge, they'd find some other way to make a scene. They're attention whores. Haven't I said that already?



> I see YOU as being more a source of drama than them.


Unfortunately for you, the only other user here who seems to complain about me is the moderator of this forum. Nobody else really seems to mind me.



Arshes Nei said:


> The morale of the art site is not improved by a non related club.
> 
> It's not argued with long quote wars. You aren't making your points then and you're not making them now.
> 
> Your club being allowed regardless of "morale reasons"  would be the same reason opposite of your club would be allowed because they believe in their own visions of "Well being" of an art site.


...why is it that the threads are always won before I'm done my posts? I need to think faster...


----------



## Ainoko (May 17, 2009)

> The majority of furry artwork that is published is erotic, smutty, and pornographic.





AdriNoMa said:


> Um, excuse me--do you think that's _society's_ fault, or _the artists'?_



If you were to take the effort and do some research, you will find the the majority of the furry art on the main site is not porn, it is clean. If you don't beleive me, PM the admins. Sites that containt the most furry porn are Fchan, VCL Yiffstar, etc. I have been keeping track of teh site statistics as they are posted and if I am sorely mistaken, clean art submissions out pace the porn submissions by nearly 5-1. after due reserch, I found I made a mistake and corrected it. Fur Affinity may have porn here on the site, but not at teh levels that you are assuming is on this site.


----------



## Adrimor (May 17, 2009)

Ainoko said:


> If you were to take the effort and do some research, you will find the the majority of the furry art on the main site is not porn, it is clean.


Irrelevant--pornography is what's most popular for _viewing._
Whether or not you accept it, the fact of the matter is that _sex sells,_ and no publisher--furry or not--will deny that.
But publishers can't do their jobs without content.

EDIT: Also, you do realize that the point to which I made that reply was none other than _OtakuMan's,_ correct?



> If you don't beleive me, PM the admins. Sites that containt the most furry porn are Fchan, VCL Yiffstar, etc. I have been keeping track of teh site statistics as they are posted and if I am sorely mistaken, clean art submissions out pace the porn submissions by nearly 5-1. after due reserch, I found I made a mistake and corrected it. Fur Affinity may have porn here on the site, but not at teh levels that you are assuming is on this site.


Actually, I know the levels--and I know your trite and contrived argument ALL too well.

I'm going to repost my analogy from another thread here:



AdriNoMa said:


> Around this time is where Dragoneer or someone else would probably come in and mention that most of the stuff submitted to FA is non-porn. This is technically true, but nobody seems to take notice of the point that porn usually gets the most comments, views, and faves.
> 
> I could write an entire library worth of novels, but if only three people read one of them and nothing else was ever even opened, what would it matter?



Moreover, there's more to something being _published_ than it being posted to FA.
_Published_ artists/writers get paid.


----------



## Armaetus (May 18, 2009)

Andrinoma, you just replied to yourself.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (May 18, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> You should see CigarSkunk then.  If you want 15-page rants on politics, he's your guy.
> 
> Also, what about art that is an expression of one's feelings?  Or what about comics that are about one's life?  Just ask Technicolor Pie.



Unlike you I'm not naming members on the main site, hence why I only alluded to him and didn't name him directly.

If the expression is in the context of a piece of art it obviously has a place.  But there's no reason why in the description you'd write a thesis paper on everything that sucks in your life, maybe a brief explanation, one or two sentences.  If you had a message, it would have been said in the piece and is left for the people who comment to interpret.  That's of course, my perfect world that makes too much sense that there's no way that would ever happen.



> And what is the difference between the community and the main site? Are they not one and the same?



Again I ask, what community?  The main site is purely for the purposes of art.  The forum is here for all the random bullshit that goes along with art.  But even still, on the forum it's not exactly the place the start listing off all your fetishes.  Just because it's the internet doesn't mean that all social expectations are thrown out of the window, and that includes being mocked for more or less yelling out how much a deviant you are.



> I find your personal attack on calling me a scammer rather harsh. For the record, I was not aware that it was illegal, and as soon as it became knowledge that it was, I took the necessary and responsible actions.



Ignorance of the law is very seldom an excuse.  You were holding a raffle, people donating expecting some sort of service from that raffle, and it was never provided.  Since you still have the money, it was obtained through fraudulent means, hence scam.  Had the money been returned I wouldn't have used that word.  In my mind, it shouldn't have even been a question about what to do with the money you obtained. 



> I tried to fundraise and donate money to those who were about to lose their homes.



Out of order I know, but I just thought of this now.

If you found Darkwolfe's story so compelling, you donate to him.  Maybe encourage other people to donate DIRECTLY to him, but if your overall message is to donate with the purpose of benefiting those struggling with housing foreclosures, there's already charities like the National Urban League, Catholic Charities, and many local charities like the Center for New York City Neighborhoods.  These are established charities (with respectable names), that already do what you're trying to do.  If you're really concerned about people losing their homes, encourage people to donate to THOSE charities.


----------



## Adrimor (May 18, 2009)

Glaice said:


> Andrinoma, you just replied to yourself.


Because "I'm gonna repost my analogy from another thread:" indicates that I'm replying to myself?

And you spelled my name wrong. What the hell man >=[


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 18, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> You want to see the ADLM be removed from FA THAT badly?!



Yes. It's got a number of problems as to why it shouldn't be here.

Charity reasons.
Club isn't about art, but rather drama.


----------



## Verin Asper (May 18, 2009)

The ADLM hardly helps...just causes more problems now
Just like I said, you cant save everyone, cause you guys dont
in the end any movement trying to make furs look good wont work and die cause the foundation of furs must be changed first.
also...throwing money at problems dont work anyway cause my friend enjoys making fake sob stories, heck he bought an XB360 from one story.

you guys allow the drama to grow, congrats on that


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## Dragoneer (May 18, 2009)

Crysix Corps said:


> The ADLM hardly helps...just causes more problems now


Trying to remain neutral to this as an admin, but as others have pointed out, one of the problems with the ADLM is that it gives trolls/harassers a "one stop shop" to find things to poke at. I believe the ADLM has the opposite effect that it was intending to have (in addition to rewarding certain individuals who create their own drama by giving them attention).


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

Dragoneer said:


> Trying to remain neutral to this as an admin, but as others have pointed out, one of the problems with the ADLM is that it gives trolls/harassers a "one stop shop" to find things to poke at. I believe the ADLM has the opposite effect that it was intending to have (in addition to rewarding certain individuals who create their own drama by giving them attention).



While I appreciate that, as an admin, you are remaining neutral in what actions you would take, I am disappointed that you feel that way.

I am aware that one of the problems of the ADLM's newsletter is the potential for "one stop shop" trolling and harassing of users.

However, since it is not my intention to make a one-stop shop, would that not mean that the trollers and harassers are the ones abusing the Movement for their own mean and selfish interests?

In a situation such as this, who should be punished: the Movement who is trying to do some good, or the trollers/harassers that are abusing it?

I feel that punishing the Movement for that sort of thing is a bad idea.  It does not stop trolls and harassers from finding other ways to track down and find people to poke at.  It doesn't tackle the issue head on.

Fchan, Lulz.net, wtf_fa are all off-site examples of trolls organizing their own forums and databases to find and attack people on FA.  Removing the Movement would do very little to actually stop the tide of trolling, if you ask me.

Instead, I prefer to take a more active approach to trolls.  If they are drawn to the ADLM, then I see the ADLM as potential bait to expose those who would abuse it.  If people are actively using the newsletters for the sole purposes of malice, then the trolls can be weeded out and blocked by the users.

It's even possible for the ADLM to make a "Most Wanted" list of trolls (like FBI Most Wanted, not Amazon.com Most Wanted).  These would be the people FA members know have a history of trolling and, pardon my French, shit stirring; therefore knowing who to pay no attention to and block.

Likewise, this sort of a list wouldn't be without samples of an individual troll's trolling.  Links to journals of that troll's trolling would be put on display so people could know what to look out for.

The intent would not be for these members to be banned and have enough proof to get them banned, but as a measure of community warning.  One thing the ADLM would need to do to hold up to its message, it would seem, is take an active Anti-Troll stance.

If the trolls are truly out of control, then I might have to cancel the newsletter, but in the meantime I intend to continue operations as usual.

I value your opinion 'Neer, and want to work with you.  If you think the ADLM is too easily abused, then I would rather make it less-abuseable as opposed to eliminate it entirely.

What say you?

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Adrimor (May 18, 2009)

^ I was afraid of this...


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## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> ^ I was afraid of this...



Why?

If there's an Artists / Buyers Beware section for avoiding potential scammers (whether it be trying to weasel out of commissions or accepting commissions and then blowing them off), why not a section for avoiding potential trolls?

If artists and commissioners have sections for protecting themselves, should not those who do not fall into either category have a similar section where they know who to ignore and avoid for potential abuse?

Keep in mind I'm not talking people who fall out due to a disagreement.  I'm talking people who set up FA accounts with the sole purpose of harassing those in the community for their own amusement.

Should there not be efforts to try and reduce the amount of abuse on FA?

~Otaku-Man


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Unlike you I'm not naming members on the main site, hence why I only alluded to him and didn't name him directly.



Ah, so you were thinking of him too when you wrote that!  It's pretty interesting when a statement like that instantly brings him to mind.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> If the expression is in the context of a piece of art it obviously has a place.  But there's no reason why in the description you'd write a thesis paper on everything that sucks in your life, maybe a brief explanation, one or two sentences.  If you had a message, it would have been said in the piece and is left for the people who comment to interpret.



But if they don't want it interpreted?  What if they want it known?



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> That's of course, my perfect world that makes too much sense that there's no way that would ever happen.





Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Again I ask, what community?  The main site is purely for the purposes of art.



Wow!  WHAT community?!  You seriously don't think there's a community here?!  Go to a fur con and THEN tell me there's no community.

Just... wow!



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The forum is here for all the random bullshit that goes along with art.  But even still, on the forum it's not exactly the place the start listing off all your fetishes.



That's why people do it in their coded profiles, or journals.  They know they're just going to be blasted here, so why bother?



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Just because it's the internet doesn't mean that all social expectations are thrown out of the window, and that includes being mocked for more or less yelling out how much a deviant you are.



You mean Deviant Art?



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Ignorance of the law is very seldom an excuse.  You were holding a raffle, people donating expecting some sort of service from that raffle, and it was never provided.



Only because I had to cancel it after 'Neer pointed out the liability.  Before it was shut down, we had three successful raffles before hand, and all of them went swimmingly.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Since you still have the money, it was obtained through fraudulent means, hence scam.  Had the money been returned I wouldn't have used that word.  In my mind, it shouldn't have even been a question about what to do with the money you obtained.



I offered them a return.  All of them refused.



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Out of order I know, but I just thought of this now.
> 
> If you found Darkwolfe's story so compelling, you donate to him.  Maybe encourage other people to donate DIRECTLY to him, but if your overall message is to donate with the purpose of benefiting those struggling with housing foreclosures, there's already charities like the National Urban League, Catholic Charities, and many local charities like the Center for New York City Neighborhoods.  These are established charities (with respectable names), that already do what you're trying to do.  If you're really concerned about people losing their homes, encourage people to donate to THOSE charities.



Not a bad idea.  I like that.

I need to find listings of different charities that I can post to and link off the ADLM main page so that people in those areas that are in desperate need can seek them out.

I find many problems can be solved if people know where to look.  Pointing out where is one of the things I want the ADLM to help with.  I figure it would help folks out.

Thanks for the tip!

~Otaku-Man


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> Already did. Let's look at the replay:
> 
> Again, your movement encourages precisely this sort of behavior--whether it means to or not. And again, it is an enabling sort of thing--keep in mind: Enabling can also refer to situations in which you mean well, but end up doing more harm than good.



But how are we to know that we will do that in advance?  Can we always know when we will enable before we say or do something?



AdriNoMa said:


> One, the movement is not you. You can still be a good person even if you have a truly horrible idea.



Thanks... I think...



AdriNoMa said:


> Two, ending something that does more harm than good is a perfect solution to the problems it creates.



I disagree.  Just giving up on something because you don't think its perfect the first time around is a very depressing and pessimistic viewpoint.  I would much rather improve the Movement than eliminate it.  You can't solve all your problems by just tossing it to the wayside.

You know that.



AdriNoMa said:


> I've already said it several times. In a word, DRAMA.  Offering free money to make dramatists stop their histrionics is like supplying a known kleptomaniac anything he wants to make him stop stealing.



Histrionics?



AdriNoMa said:


> More often than not, the drama they bring results from mental illness, just as is the case with a kleptomaniac's thievery.



But those are not the people receiving funds.  Those are the people who have folks discussing problems with them.



AdriNoMa said:


> As AshleyAshes mentioned already: Narcissistic personality disorders, emotional instability, general lack of maturity, poor or nonexistent social skills...
> 
> Ultimately, you're proposing that they get money and art for being sick instead of treatment.



No I'm not.



AdriNoMa said:


> Now, as you admitted, treatment is beyond the scope of your movement--however, by that very admission, so is helping them.


 
Treatment is beyond the scope of anyone unless they have a degree.  But helping them does not require a degree.  Being kind, offering assistance, and being a good person towards them is not treatment, its just helping.  They can't see a psychologist or psychiatrist 24/7, not without being locked up in a mental institution which is slowly becoming a thing of the past as more and more are closed down.

Being a good Samaritan should not be above anyone.



AdriNoMa said:


> Feelings aren't always the best things to act on.



True.



AdriNoMa said:


> If your position is flawed, defending it to the end will just make you look stubborn and anger everybody else.



If my position is flawed, why do so many people agree with me?



AdriNoMa said:


> Because you're not only wrong, but you either misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent my points to avoid having to face that.



I am not misrepresenting your points.  Misunderstanding them, maybe, but it would be on your part to ensure that they are clear.  Not mine.



AdriNoMa said:


> _Attention-whoring is not good._




Yeah, I know that.



AdriNoMa said:


> Whether or not you _mean_ it to, your movement encourages precisely that. How many times must it be said...?


 
But it's not.  Can you prove that it is?  Feel free to give me an example.



AdriNoMa said:


> Your rebuttal is neither clever nor relevant.
> While thigns differ from culture to culture, every major culture has some taboos in common.
> Incest, for example. Or murder. Or suicide.



What about Seppuku?



AdriNoMa said:


> Or telling everybody around about what sort of sexual behaviors you and your partner(s) like to engage in.
> _Not doing those things _is what I mean when I say common sense--and, hey: Every culture on this agrees that there is such a thing as too much information.



Not every culture.



AdriNoMa said:


> Your argument is invalid.



As is yours if you ask me.  You are bringing a lot of accusations with little to no proof backing up your statements.  You are giving me no clear examples outside of this conversation that the Movement is doing what you claim it is.  I find that very rude.



AdriNoMa said:


> Tell me--what is so unreasonable about the idea of not telling people more than they need or even want to know?
> It's part of something called "understanding personal boundaries"--which is a _vital_ social skill.



Personal boundaries is a vital social skill.  However, when your person is an anonymous cloud on the internet, many boundaries are broken or extended.

Not to mention, no one is forcing you to read their journals.  Why should you care what information someone else shares?



AdriNoMa said:


> They have the right not to be disgusted.
> If something is of no artistic, informational, or practical value--such as what kind of sex toys Furry A likes, or what Furry B prefers to do in bed--they have the right not to have to deal with it, and the right to tell the people who throw it out there "No."



I'll give you the right to be disgusted.  I'll give you that.  I'll also give you the right to no have to deal with it... by not reading or caring for their journals and ignoring them.  I'll also give you the right to voice that you are not into what they are into.

To tell them that they CAN'T be into that on this space, however...

...you have absolutely no right.

You can only manage yourself, and no one else.



AdriNoMa said:


> Um, lrn2Google, please.
> 
> --INFANTILISM--
> http://understanding.infantilism.org/how.php
> ...



I agree, FA is for all furries to enjoy.  Including those that wear diapers at 35.  All furries means everyone, even the ones whose tastes you are disgusted with.



AdriNoMa said:


> A straw man is a type of logical fallacy.
> Since you've used them extensively, either you don't understand what I'm saying, or you refuse to actually address it.


 
I'm gonna go with not understand since I'm not familiar with the Straw Man term.  If you can give me some Straw Man examples, that would be helpful.



AdriNoMa said:


> Incorrect. Society at large has a very negative view of _Don't-Judge-Mes_ and any other category of person who feels the need to air his dirty laundry in public.
> Case in point: http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?t=42322



But even if the majority of the society has a negative view of the Don't-Judge-Mes, does that mean we have the right to act on the negative views?  If we did, that would be prejudice.  The human rights movement ensured that prejudice that inflicted harm on others was illegal and immoral.

If you are not able to control yourself and be tolerant enough of others to withhold yourself from acting prejudiced towards others, then shame on you.



AdriNoMa said:


> Um, excuse me--do you think that's _society's_ fault, or _the artists'?_
> 
> Because Bugs Bunny and Sonic the Hedgehog are _clearly_ banned in every English-speaking country 9_9  The only reason for the furry fandom in general to be disliked is that the furry fandom in general consists of too many attention-whores, particularly those who are DJMs.



You think attention-whores are the reason society at large looks down on the furry community?  Wow.



AdriNoMa said:


> I have every right to hate them. My thoughts and attitudes are my own business. I'm not the one telling everybody to accept me or get bent if they dislike either of those--and I don't give a _damn_ about the babyfurs' personal preferences. What I hate them for is their attention-whoring.



You have the right to hate them.  You can voice your displeasure and your dislike of them.  You can protest and plead for them to be removed from FA, or take initiatives to try and get them to other more appropriate sites.

But you are not in a position of power to instantly change the rules and act on your prejudices.  Based on your character, I find you to be a very bitter, petty, and hateful person.

I feel sorry for anyone who has you as a leader or boss.

And that's me voicing my opinion.



AdriNoMa said:


> *Stop with the straw men already.*
> 
> Once again:
> *IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE JUDGED, DON'T DO THINGS THAT INCITE JUDGEMENT.*



That is a RIDICULOUS statement.  Did people during the civil rights movement have the ability to just stop being dark-skinned?  They were judged based on that!  What about those who are homosexual?  Do you think they can just STOP being gays or lesbians?

The same applies to people that are into things you are not.

Seeing you judge others the way you do just makes you look like a bully.



AdriNoMa said:


> Good lord, what is so difficult to understand about that? What is so _untenable_ about that stance? Am I the only one here who thinks it's perfectly reasonable?



As far as I'm concerned... yes.



AdriNoMa said:


> I ask everybody reading this: Am I really so insane to believe in the idea of _modesty?_ Not everybody needs to know what you fap to, and most people don't _want_ to. If you choose to tell them anyway, that is your right--but it is then their right to tell you in no uncertain terms that they *do not need to know.*



True, but there's also a thing called tact.  If you want to tell them that something is TMI, then you should at least be responsible enough to actually care about someone else's feelings and be polite.  Insulting them, debasing them, and ridiculing them is crossing a line you should not cross.

It just makes you look like a jerk.



AdriNoMa said:


> Right is irrelevant to reality.
> You can argue over intrinsic rights all you like, but at the end of the day it all boils down to what actually gets to happen and what doesn't.
> Judgement takes place first and foremost in people's minds. The impulse to judge has existed in humanity for centuries, and neither you nor I can prevent or prohibit such a hardwired mental process.
> Studies have found time and again that even the least judgemental people still have prejudicies and make judgements toward others.
> Talk about "rights" all you like, but the fact remains that people will judge.



But how you ACT on those judgements speaks even more volumes.  Just because we may judge someone in our minds does not mean that we always have to act on them.



AdriNoMa said:


> If we did not judge, they'd find some other way to make a scene. They're attention whores. Haven't I said that already?


 
Yet, from the sound of it, people have not held back their judgements so far, so we may never know what they might do to still make a scene.



AdriNoMa said:


> Unfortunately for you, the only other user here who seems to complain about me is the moderator of this forum. Nobody else really seems to mind me.



I would think that if the forum mod has issues with you, then that's actually saying something about you.

It says that the mod finds you a nuisance.

Perhaps others have made judgements about you already.  They just don't want to bother telling you what they have judged you to be out of tact and politeness.

Two things I find you lacking, personally.



AdriNoMa said:


> Irrelevant--pornography is what's most popular for _viewing._
> Whether or not you accept it, the fact of the matter is that _sex sells,_ and no publisher--furry or not--will deny that.
> But publishers can't do their jobs without content.
> 
> EDIT: Also, you do realize that the point to which I made that reply was none other than _OtakuMan's,_ correct?



I actually noted them that it was my comment there that they were quoting from.  What I meant to say is that while the majority of material on FA was not pornographic, the most PROMINENT, IE most well known works on FA, are pornographic.

Zig-Zag for example.



AdriNoMa said:


> Actually, I know the levels--and I know your trite and contrived argument ALL too well.



How so?  Although I must say, this back and forth debating has actually been quite fun.  It helps give me a stronger position for where I'm coming from, and also helps me find weaknesses in my statements and repair them.

I'm hoping you're coming away with some good from this too.  I think we can both be better debaters because of this.



Arshes Nei said:


> Yes. It's got a number of problems as to why it shouldn't be here.
> 
> Charity reasons.
> Club isn't about art, but rather drama.



Drama amongst artists.  I would think that would count.

And if you're referring to removing a support group for furry artists who are spouses of military personnel...

...then I truly pity you for being so cold and callous to people whose family members risk their own lives on a daily basis.

Shame on you.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Adrimor (May 18, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> Why?


Because you claim to value an admin's opinion, then keep going even after it's been expressed.

Long version below:




OtakuMan24 said:


> However, since it is not my intention to make a one-stop shop, would that not mean that the trollers and harassers are the ones abusing the Movement for their own mean and selfish interests?


That's what trolls _do._



> In a situation such as this, who should be punished: the Movement who is trying to do some good, or the trollers/harassers that are abusing it?


Intent isn't as important as results. Why is that view so wrong?



> I feel that punishing the Movement for that sort of thing is a bad idea.  It does not stop trolls and harassers from finding other ways to track down and find people to poke at.


*Nothing* can stop them. The next best thing is to make it as difficult as possible for them to find, engage, and harass other users.



> Fchan, Lulz.net, wtf_fa are all off-site examples of trolls organizing their own forums and databases to find and attack people on FA.


Ahahaha, no. If fchan were pro-troll, you could call users asschewing cockmonglers on it or spam image macros with no ill effects. Try those on the actual site once. You'll be banned.



> Removing the Movement would do very little to actually stop the tide of trolling, if you ask me.


There's no stopping it, precisely because it _is_ a tide. You can't stop the ocean, either--all you can do is break up its impact into manageable portions, which is precisely opposite what your movement actually does.



> Instead, I prefer to take a more active approach to trolls.  If they are drawn to the ADLM, then I see the ADLM as potential bait to expose those who would abuse it.  If people are actively using the newsletters for the sole purposes of malice, then the trolls can be weeded out and blocked by the users.


Users can block trolls even without the ADLM--and they're less likely to be trolled without it. You haven't made a case here.



> It's even possible for the ADLM to make a "Most Wanted" list of trolls (like FBI Most Wanted, not Amazon.com Most Wanted).  These would be the people FA members know have a history of trolling and, pardon my French, shit stirring; therefore knowing who to pay no attention to and block.


PROBLEM: A lot of furries are over-dramatic and label users as trolls simply for criticizing their art. Examples of this include this thread, wherein the artist mentioned blocked the OP. Said OP gave a very reasonable and non-offensive suggestion on the artist's work, and said artist promptly flew off the handle, chewed him out, and blocked him.

Trolling is posting or saying something with the express purpose of annoying the reader.



> Likewise, this sort of a list wouldn't be without samples of an individual troll's trolling.  Links to journals of that troll's trolling would be put on display so people could know what to look out for.
> 
> The intent would not be for these members to be banned and have enough proof to get them banned, but as a measure of community warning.  One thing the ADLM would need to do to hold up to its message, it would seem, is take an active Anti-Troll stance.


The problem with this is expressed in one simple question:
Who decides what is and isn't trolling?
If it's up to you, some (or most) of the community's members might object that you're dismissing valid claims--creating yet more drama--and if left up to the community, legitimate criticism may end up being marked as trolling.

And you've yet to counter Arshes' reasons, which, if anything, are even more pertinent.

Look, maybe you should take your movement to FurSpace, which--unlike FA--actually is meant to be used like as furry MySpace. That way you get to have your little subcommunity, and we get to be free of it. Everybody wins.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> Because you claim to value an admin's opinion, then keep going even after it's been expressed.



Of course I value their opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it 100%.  Unless I need to do something to keep the Movement within the AUP or TOS, then there's no rule that says I have to do whatever an admin says.  An opinion is an opinion.  I can respect it without agreeing with it.



AdriNoMa said:


> Intent isn't as important as results. Why is that view so wrong?



That's because you seem, at least to me anyway, thinking that good intent means absolutely nothing in this world.  If intent didn't matter, then nothing would get done because no one would act on their intents for risk of results not working the way they wanted.

That's life.



AdriNoMa said:


> *Nothing* can stop them. The next best thing is to make it as difficult as possible for them to find, engage, and harass other users.



I prefer a proactive approach.  I disagree that it is the next best thing.



AdriNoMa said:


> Ahahaha, no. If fchan were pro-troll, you could call users asschewing cockmonglers on it or spam image macros with no ill effects. Try those on the actual site once. You'll be banned.



I stand corrected.  I tend not to visit these websites so I'm just going on what I've heard here and there.  Still, I notice you didn't correct me when it came to lulz.net and wtf_fa.



AdriNoMa said:


> There's no stopping it, precisely because it _is_ a tide. You can't stop the ocean, either--all you can do is break up its impact into manageable portions, which is precisely opposite what your movement actually does.



While we have not taken actions to stem the tide of trolling, I'm thinking now is a good time to get active against it.  Hence, this statement will soon become moot.



AdriNoMa said:


> Users can block trolls even without the ADLM--and they're less likely to be trolled without it. You haven't made a case here.



Key word being LIKELY.  It's not a certainty.



AdriNoMa said:


> PROBLEM: A lot of furries are over-dramatic and label users as trolls simply for criticizing their art. Examples of this include this thread, wherein the artist mentioned blocked the OP. Said OP gave a very reasonable and non-offensive suggestion on the artist's work, and said artist promptly flew off the handle, chewed him out, and blocked him.



I wouldn't consider them a troll anyway.  If I did make a list, it would be a group vote on whether someone is actually a troll or not, or whether it is merely a disagreement.

We can be mature and responsible about this.



AdriNoMa said:


> Trolling is posting or saying something with the express purpose of annoying the reader.



Yep, that it is.



AdriNoMa said:


> The problem with this is expressed in one simple question:
> Who decides what is and isn't trolling?



The community.



AdriNoMa said:


> If it's up to you, some (or most) of the community's members might object that you're dismissing valid claims--creating yet more drama--and if left up to the community, legitimate criticism may end up being marked as trolling.



I would think that a good check and balance system can make most everyone happy.



AdriNoMa said:


> And you've yet to counter Arshes' reasons, which, if anything, are even more pertinent.



I can't respond to everyone now.  I'm mostly focusing on the most vocal, and that, by far, is you.  Also, I find Arshes' reasoning weak and one-sided.  I also notice that many views about what people think FA SHOULD be differ greatly from what FA actually IS.



AdriNoMa said:


> Look, maybe you should take your movement to FurSpace, which--unlike FA--actually is meant to be used like as furry MySpace. That way you get to have your little subcommunity, and we get to be free of it. Everybody wins.



Why do you care so much about being free of it?  Until this thread, no one here was bothering you with it.

And pass on the FurSpace thing.  I'd much rather stick to one website, thank you.

~Otaku-Man

P.S.  I said some pretty harsh stuff about you and your character (personal character, not fursona character) in one of the last posts.  I'm surprised you didn't say anything about that.


----------



## Verin Asper (May 18, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> While I appreciate that, as an admin, you are remaining neutral in what actions you would take, I am disappointed that you feel that way.
> 
> I am aware that one of the problems of the ADLM's newsletter is the potential for "one stop shop" trolling and harassing of users.
> 
> ...



...
Does this idea sound familiar...reminds me of Furry Ops original idea


oh they went to Counter Doxing Trolls, but got shunned by furs themselves.

now you guys are allowing those who are declared trolls to get harrassed back, yea great idea... -.-


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

Crysix Corps said:


> ...
> Does this idea sound familiar...reminds me of Furry Ops original idea
> 
> 
> ...



Furry Ops?  Who's that?

And I'm not encouraging people to harass the trolls.  I'm encouraging them to avoid them.

Passive resistance, yo!

~Otaku-Man

EDIT:  I should also point out that I mentioned this idea over on the ADLM itself in order to get some general feedback.

You can see the responses here, and you may be surprised by what they say.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/746038/

Also, given the possible risky nature of this, I'd want to consult with 'Neer before putting anything in action.


----------



## Eevee (May 18, 2009)

I guess I am late to this party but _what is this_

so far the biggest components seem to be a lot of meta-arguing and very organized lists of people who want me to give them free money


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

Eevee said:


> I guess I am late to this party but _what is this_
> 
> so far the biggest components seem to be a lot of meta-arguing and very organized lists of people who want me to give them free money



Long story short,

I created the movement in an attempt to try and make things better for the real lives of the community members.  Given the wide-spread depression caused from a number of factors, not to mention the weak economy, the Movement eventually attempted to do some fundraising to try and help those in need while offering nice prizes.

These efforts have since been suspended until further notice due to potential legal complications that I have recently been made aware of.

However, I am still eager to continue working with the Movement and am currently brainstorming new ideas on what to do next. Now that the fundraising efforts have taken a back seat.

Also, those lists you mention aren't just for donations.  Many of them also accept commissions and the more they get, the better of they will be.  They are willing to work for the money, and I encourage that 100%.

Meanwhile, for those in financial straights that don't or can't do commissions (for whatever reason) I try and support as best I can by rallying people to try and help them either emotionally or with donations, as well as direct them to other services that they can use to help themselves.  Services such as various social service agencies, food stamps, local charities, and so forth.

The argument that many people seem to make is that they feel the Movement I made is more of a detriment than a boon to the community to which I disagree.

I admit that the Movement is not perfect, but I am open to ideas, suggestions, and changes to make it work.  The last thing I want to do is abandon it completely.  I've already put a lot of effort into this, and I'd hate to throw it all away.

So that about sums it up.  Any questions?  Comments?  Criticisms?  Suggestions?

~Otaku-Man


----------



## AshleyAshes (May 18, 2009)

Probably the only real way to have any true effect on the drama in the fandom is indeed psychotherapy.

Unless you can find psychologists and psychiatrists willing to donate their time in the form of online talk therapy to problematic furries you can do no real good.  ...And even that maybe wouldn't work.

And they'd have to be REAL professionals, not 'empathetic do gooders with a hotlink to Wikipedia'.


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Probably the only real way to have any true effect on the drama in the fandom is indeed psychotherapy.
> 
> Unless you can find psychologists and psychiatrists willing to donate their time in the form of online talk therapy to problematic furries you can do no real good.  ...And even that maybe wouldn't work.
> 
> And they'd have to be REAL professionals, not 'empathetic do gooders with a hotlink to Wikipedia'.



The way you make it sound, I would almost think you believe the entire furry fandom need professional help.

Either way, there might be some professional counselors that inhabit FA.  It would just be a trick of finding them.

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Adrimor (May 18, 2009)

OtakuMan24 said:


> But how are we to know that we will do that in advance?  Can we always know when we will enable before we say or do something?


Not necessarily, but you'd be surprised how well you can predict the future behaviors of a group after observing it for a while.



> Thanks... I think...


You're welcome, I guess e.e



> I disagree.  Just giving up on something because you don't think its perfect the first time around is a very depressing and pessimistic viewpoint.  I would much rather improve the Movement than eliminate it.  You can't solve all your problems by just tossing it to the wayside./quote]
> Did I say you could? No. The fact that I'm arguing that _this_ idea is irredeemable does not mean I believe all flawed ideas are thus.
> 
> Honestly, stop with the fallacies.
> ...


----------



## OtakuMan24 (May 18, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> Not necessarily, but...
> 
> ...who argue against your movement.



You good?

~Otaku-Man


----------



## Arshes Nei (May 18, 2009)

Dragoneer, how long are we going to have this circular posting cycle? So far from what I've seen there hasn't been a compelling argument to keep this group open, you've stated even as an administrator that you don't want a group whose intentions are becoming the complete opposite around along with the liability of a charity. Enough is enough already.


----------

