# Is America really stupid?



## Mr.LEET (Sep 9, 2008)

http://www.abytheliberal.com/internationalism/are-americans-stupid-statistics-and-research-data

Enjoy.


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Thats why 75% of all the new, kick ass inventions and shit come from America, right?


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

That kind of stuff is deliberately rigged to show Americans as dumb. Pay no attention.


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## Kajet (Sep 9, 2008)

Statistics are just lying with math.


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## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> That kind of stuff is deliberately rigged to show Americans as dumb. Pay no attention.


 
Considering that such things, "weren't a debate" until George W. Bush (Junior) got into office, I find it hard to believe that its been an ongoing debate for more then 7 years (as the article both reads and implicitly suggests.)

Yet, America Bashing isn't new -- but is it valid? For the sake of starting a debate or getting people to notice a particularly odd trend in our Academic Services, bashing is something I would consider valid, however controversial (as long as it had a point beyond fiasco.) However, now it would appear to be the tireless fad amungst the Xenophobic and Socially isolated, Fasso-Nationalistic or geo-politically naive. Uncredible or neo-intellectual bashing is what makes the whole act so easy to access: You don't need an education to prove your point (ironically) and its not been considered a fallacious act to remain ambigious while you promote a cynically stupid behavior that might easily, chastise yourself (where it not for ambiguity.) The sophomoric buck stops here when people have something thats given more worth then its due; exemplication follows here.

1. Example
Johan: "Bush is stupid and American. So therefore, he's living proof that Americans are stupid." 
*Give standing ovation and a fucking emmy for poor exercise in rhetoric without a supporting data!*

However, if it is one thing that agenda based studies like these _prove_; even if for the sake of empathy ditto talking, its that Public Education in the United States is causing some irreperable damage to our youth.

For one thing, it does have a monopoly on what I'd like to call, "The Triplicate of Tarded"; a model of political, social and economic evaluation or welfare. Now, the model itself is used to generate information about what some have called a Public Schools, "diversity ticket" and how many socially and economically diverse children it attracts / provides for in a given area. Although, there's one thing I don't get about this whole thing.

How it turned from becoming an honest model intent on breaking racial or economic profiling, and turned into a tool that inadvertedly chastised higher education. I'm sure if a relevant study was run, you'd find that most people believe Private Institutions for Education would be less diverse (a political insinuation that children of "diversity" are in capable of seeking such personal academic provision because of their social / economic status), then places of public academia. Comparisons between these two standards of education would inexplicitly turn out rehashed refridgerator favorites, such as Public Education Gourmet: Private Schools are incapable of providing good community relations or well rounded education based on limited ethnic standards or social economic access (as most public educators have believed their services can provide.)

The fact poor schools (public education systems) with an aptitude to cheat children of their education (or allow them to cheat on it), alongside a variety of social factors that nearly every American has contributed to at some point, has not only alienated the success of Public Education but it's Academic Standards alone. So much so, that it would appear to be our own social nuance to relate that "smart people" are "eccentric, wierd, unhip, or know it all's", and that "categorically more insipid people" are "cool, good looking, or down to earth."

I digress. Topics like these, however controversial, appear more for the act of getting people to talk, not factualize in the face of Geo-Political bigotry. However, even with these set backs to credibility, the author made some good talking points about our Public Education. Performance wise, it is debatable that all American children are somehow mathematically disabled and that our national IQ Average is 98. Yet, I would agree to state that Public Education averages hover at or below 98 for Intelligence Quotations (but what is it they really tested?)

98 is two points below an average thinking adult with 100-107 being considered the average IQ of a man. I was scored at 133; so it makes little to no sense that my peers across the ocean would botch a study with limited results, if they only intended to support their thesis with biased results and not investigate rare gems like myself /rollseyes. Still, if their data constitutes a statistic, it will only be true for the things they mapped (assuming their process was scientific without bias.) As for their negligence in handling the situation without a political nuetrality, one cannot reguard their methodology in the best interests of proving a thesis, since it appears more for comedic value and agenda.

My 0.02 cents.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

Erro said:


> Thats why 75% of all the new, kick ass inventions and shit come from America, right?



Proof? Or did you make that statistic up?



> Most of the brilliant scientists, doctors and academics are of European or Asian origin despite the fact that these people move to US only when unable to find a satisfactory job in their competitive home countries. You should be thanking the immigrants rather than spreading hate based propaganda against them, it is because of them that your nation did not score at par with sub-Saharan countries.



And Bambi, do you always dismiss any study that doesn't fit your view as biased and "with an agenda"? I understand it's not nice to hear bad things about your country, even worse when they are true, but get used to it. Poland is still considered widely Europe's backwater, yet you don't see me angsting over that.


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## Kyra (Sep 9, 2008)

every one has the potential to be a thich sonofabitch its just that america is in the news all over the world of recent years so people catergarise the americans as the same as the gimps in the news


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Proof? Or did you make that statistic up?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions
here, eat your heart out

edit: and as for your quote, everyone in the US is an immigrant, with the exception of 'native americans', who immigrated a long ass time before the rest of the people. Then again, everyone in just about every country except the fertile crescent, as far as is recorded, immigrated to their current country at one point or another. So where people 'came from' is pretty irrelevant.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

No, I don't really have to. You quoted Wikipedia as an argument, making your point pretty much irrelevant. It's also a pretty short list.

I also have to add, that the quote is insanely relevant - just because someone invented something on American territory doesn't make it American, especially not if he received his education in Europe. 

Otherwise, we're slipping into stupidity - if, say, I have a pregnant wife and she gives birth on American soil, that doesn't make the kid American, now does it?


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> No, I don't really have to. You quoted Wikipedia as an argument, making your point pretty much irrelevant. It's also a pretty short list.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_inventions
*cough*


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

Nobody has got around to doing that particular list yet. Your point?


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## LizardKing (Sep 9, 2008)

Kyra said:


> every one has the potential to be a thich sonofabitch



Absolutely.


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## Wait Wait (Sep 9, 2008)

that's not all that's short about the polish


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## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

> No, I don't really have to. You quoted Wikipedia as an argument, making your point pretty much irrelevant.


 
However, pretty much irrefutable until you can come up with something better.

Yet, I think this is more of, "you" attempting to absolve an argumentative responsibility.


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## Greyscale (Sep 9, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> that's not all that's short about the polish



Zing!

...


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> if, say, I have a pregnant wife and she gives birth on American soil, that doesn't make the kid American, now does it?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism

You aren't making me try very hard. Try a 'counter argument', those are usually more effective than 'denial'



Mikael Grizzly said:


> Nobody has got around to doing that particular list yet. Your point?


That's because there is no content to add.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

Bambi said:


> However, pretty much irrefutable until you can come up with something better.



There are detailed articles on the history of technology on Wikipedia. But since I loathe quoting an user-based project like Wikipedia on such subjects, I refrained from posting links.



Erro said:


> That's because there is no content to add.



I tried to find a witty retort here, but I couldn't find anything that would adequately describe the amount of stupidity in that particular quote.

I find it amusing that the very best you can do is link to a Wikipedia article someone wrote rather than write something yourself. I think you're unaware of the inherent irony of doing that in a thread entitled "Is America really stupid?".

+ignore then.


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## LizardKing (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> There are detailed articles on the history of technology on Wikipedia. But since I loathe quoting an user-based project like Wikipedia on such subjects, I refrained from posting links.




THE POWER OF GOOGLE COMPELS YOU


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## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

> But since I loathe quoting an user-based project like Wikipedia on such subjects, I refrained from posting links.


 
Perhaps you should. Just a thought.


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## Wait Wait (Sep 9, 2008)

Greyscale said:


> Zing!
> 
> ...



thank you, thank you

you've been a good audience


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## eternal_flare (Sep 9, 2008)

Dawwww, wrong topic, a country, non-living thing can't be stupid. It's the people there which may be.


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> I find it amusing that the very best you can do is link to a Wikipedia article someone wrote rather than write something yourself. I think you're unaware of the inherent irony of doing that in a thread entitled "Is America really stupid?".


I find it even more amusing that, while you are commenting such on my citations, you have yet to even bother posting your own.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

LizardKing said:


> THE POWER OF GOOGLE COMPELS YOU



Interestingly, Google lists companies, stock prices, economy reports related to Europe but not lists of invention. Funny, eh? By Erro's logic that'd mean that the US of A invented everything even before it was founded.



> Dawwww, wrong topic, a country, non-living thing can't be stupid. It's the people there which may be.



Actually, that's what the OP is referring to, since a state is made up of it's citizens. It's a thought-shortcut, much like when I say Poland, I refer to the government or the citizens, not the country as a concept.


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## Grimfang (Sep 9, 2008)

What Mikael says does have some validity to it. Let me help 

Keep in mind that there are about 250million more people in America to invent things today. Also, in 2006, the count of immigrants in the US was at 37.5million.

Anyhoozles.. Polish list if it counts for anything: http://www.poland.gov.pl/Explorers,and,Inventors,507.html

Although it's a government site, not an open encyclopedia, so it's going to be shorter.

Anyway.. I find nationalistic competition pointless, so I have no country to defend or fight for in this debate 

If you really wanted to as far back as that US List of Inventions of wiki, or maybe even further, you could find plenty of awesome stuff.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Sep 9, 2008)

Are we?  I dunno.  I don't feel stupid.  *squishes Grimfang's bug*


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## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Erro said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_inventions
> *cough*



I'll give some inventions from the polish wikipedia, from two inventors from the top of the list.

Lucjan ÅÄ…giewka:
the workhead for the milling machine
the damn air filter which every car engine on the planet uses
(if those two aren't significant, I don't know what is)

Stefan Drzewiecki:
one of the first submarines, the first for 4 people (1881)
the first electric submarine (1888 )
pneumatic topedo launcher

So screw you


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Grimfang said:


> Anyway.. I find nationalistic competition pointless, so I have no country to defend or fight for in this debate


I am certainly not one to be expected to defend the United States, as a country. I carry very little patriotism, and have quite a few places in mind I'd rather be 

My reason for retort, though, is that I find it rather irritating, not to mention quite shallow on the part of those stating the opinion, to be tossed in the melting pot with the 'stupid Americans'.


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## Grimfang (Sep 9, 2008)

Erro said:


> I am certainly not one to be expected to defend the United States, as a country. I carry very little patriotism, and have quite a few places in mind I'd rather be
> 
> My reason for retort, though, is that I find it rather irritating, not to mention quite shallow on the part of those stating the opinion, to be tossed in the melting pot with the 'stupid Americans'.



This is true.



Shark_the_raptor said:


> Are we?  I dunno.  I don't feel stupid.



I feel stupid. 



Shark_the_raptor said:


> *squishes Grimfang's bug*



D:

*JUST got new bug as you did that though*


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> I'll give some inventions from the polish wikipedia, from two inventors from the top of the list.
> 
> Lucjan ÅÄ…giewka:
> the workhead for the milling machine
> ...


Look, I'm in no way trying to say that any other country is stupid, though some people here are really striving to make their nation look that way. *cough* no names.
I'm just putting out there, and you can bitch about 'user input sources' all you want to, cause they are all cited at the bottom and most of them, like... the telephone/cellphone (I mean, who the fuck in any modern country doesn't have a cell phone?), are pretty up there inventions. I mean, good god, the US was one of two countries leading the planet in putting people in space. We have quite the collection of rocket scientists for being such a 'stupid country'


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## eternal_flare (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Actually, that's what the OP is referring to, since a state is made up of it's citizens. It's a thought-shortcut, much like when I say Poland, I refer to the government or the citizens, not the country as a concept.



I was just playing. .<_<.

Also, not all americans are stupid...just more than half of it. XD



Grimfang said:


> *JUST got new bug as you did that though*



.O_O. Oh well...it's just not realistic...at all.
No one would fall for that, Grimfagn .<_<.


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## Grimfang (Sep 9, 2008)

Afghanistan has the highest opium exports, right? They're smart too.



eternal_flare said:


> .O_O. Oh well...it's just not realistic...at all.
> No one would fall for--*interrupted*



OMG YOU HAVE A DRAGONFLY ON YOUR SCREEN.

.. don't make me come over the, Flare. With my bug too.


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## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Frankly, I don't give a damn about the discussion or that there's no list on our inventors. Really, who cares?



Erro said:


> I mean, good god, the US was one of two countries leading the planet in putting people in space. We have quite the collection of rocket scientists for being such a 'stupid country'



Wernher von Braun *cough* 

Seriously, for a holegan, this is really Serious Buisness for you...


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## LizardKing (Sep 9, 2008)

No denying America has some great minds, not surprising there'd be some in a population that large, but the vast amount of white trash and similar probably brings the average waaaay down.


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

eternal_flare said:


> Also, not all americans are stupid...just more than half of it. XD


It's a big country. Thusly, it has a lot of stupid people in it. Unfortunately, it is also a very ...publicized country, and therefore its stupid people are plastered all over the news across the globe. That, and the stupid people, who are great in numbers, keep influencing the election of more stupid people to run the place, making us all look ...stupid.


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## Arc (Sep 9, 2008)

Erro said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions
> here, eat your heart out


I counter with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Germany D:

On a serious note, this thread is based on a rather superficial generalization.
There isn't a real point in discussing which country has more and which has less intelligent people.
You maybe could compare education systems, 
but I dislike the concept of international competition in general.

Like Serj Tankian said:

"Borders are the gallows of our collective national egos.
Subjective line in the sand, water and air are sperating plants, animals, and athmosphere.
Fear! Fear is the cause of separation for this imposed illusion.
this cordoned off space from pre-birth.
When we run out of borders, we reach infinity and unity."


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Arc said:


> Like Serj Tankian said:


*bangs his head repeatedly off the wall*


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## Arc (Sep 9, 2008)

Erro said:


> *bangs his head repeatedly off the wall*



I respect him for his political engagement, his ideals
and his involvement in the struggle for real democracy and social justice,
not only because I am a SoaD fanboy, thank you. >:C


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## LizardKing (Sep 9, 2008)

Arc said:


> I respect him for his political engagement, his ideals
> and his involvement in the struggle for real democracy and social justice,
> not only because I am a SoaD fanboy, thank you. >:C




You want his penis in ur butt.


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## Arc (Sep 9, 2008)

LizardKing said:


> You want his penis in ur butt.



...MAYBE!

Well actually no, he still is 41 years old, altough he is kinda hot. >.>


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## Shark_the_raptor (Sep 9, 2008)

*squishes Grimfang's new bug*  Damn it, it won't die!  D:

Also, what's the point of this thread?


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## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Shark_the_raptor said:


> Also, what's the point of this thread?


There is one?

And Arc, do you want your penis in his butt as well? If you want to raep him, SPARE HIS VOICE!


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## ToeClaws (Sep 9, 2008)

*chuckles* Whoa now, if you have a look at the scores you'll notice that the _highest_ national average ranking is only 108.  Articles like that tend to blow things well out of proportion and also often don't take into account varying factors.

Overall, the American school system has slipped a lot in recent years (thanks to Dubya), but much of the perceived "stupidity" of Americans would be better stated as ignorance.  From having experienced a little bit of the American Education system during my time in Texas, I can do something most citizens of the US cannot, which is compare it to something else.  US education is actually not too bad, but it is very focused on themselves and not so much on others.  I believe that's why many Americans really don't know much about other countries.  Their English/grammar system is also a little weaker and they seem to put much higher emphasis on sports (particularly football in Texas).

I think what's been said already has some good points too - many great ideas and inventions still (and likely always will) come from the US because there are incredibly brilliant people in the US.  The immediate issue the US faces is just needing to overhaul and update it's elementary and high school systems which are sadly lacking in funding.


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## Whitenoise (Sep 9, 2008)

Are we talking about stupidity or ignorance here, because we all know that  public schooling in north america has gone down the shitter, as for stupidity,  I'd say no worse then anywhere else. The world is full of idiots, I don't think  that any country has a monopoly on stupid.


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## StainMcGorver (Sep 9, 2008)

harharhar dis artikul iz an liyr becuz i nut stoopid.

No really, I have an IQ of 140.
DDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWYYYYYYYYYMMMMMMMM.
NO WONDER I'M TAKING CLASSES THAT ARE TWO YEARS AHEAD OF ME.


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## LizardKing (Sep 9, 2008)

Stupid people tend to breed more as they're too thick to figure out contraceptives, so a place as big as America has an awful lot of them because there's always room for more trailers.


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Seriously, for a holegan, this is really Serious Buisness for you...


I tend to take being insulted by ignorant morons seriously. Also, it gives me opportunity to point out certain people's lack of intelligence, which is quite fun for me, and chances to make crack jokes at retards, which is even more entertaining.


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## Azure (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Wernher von Braun *cough*
> 
> Seriously, for a holegan, this is really Serious Buisness for you...


Do you listen to Coast 2 Coast AM?  They did a huge show on Von Braun a couple of weeks ago, really interesting stuff, especially his Nazi days.  Still, doesn't mean he wasn't an American citizen.  We are a nation of immigrants, that's our strength.



ToeClaws said:


> *chuckles* Whoa now, if you have a look at the scores you'll notice that the _highest_ national average ranking is only 108. Articles like that tend to blow things well out of proportion and also often don't take into account varying factors.
> 
> Overall, the American school system has slipped a lot in recent years (thanks to *lax standards for teachers, teachers unions, and neo age parenting*)


Fixed for ya, oh, and yeah, studies like that have methodology that makes me bust a gut.  ITT, Eurofags who envy my largess and wealth.  Eat your heart out faggots.  And Bambi, you make fine points as always, people just don't quite grasp them.

Oh, and one more thing, just for lulz, I know you guys hate McCain, so here is a tidbit to make you *RAGE*.  http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN097920080909


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## Grimfang (Sep 9, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> McCain


got BarackRolled 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg


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## ToeClaws (Sep 9, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Fixed for ya...



*laughs* Nice.


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## Zentio (Sep 9, 2008)

wats a amaireeeka?

=P



LizardKing said:


> Stupid people tend to breed more as they're too thick to figure out contraceptives, so a place as big as America has an awful lot of them because there's always room for more trailers.



You should watch Idiocracy XD


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## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Do you listen to Coast 2 Coast AM?  They did a huge show on Von Braun a couple of weeks ago, really interesting stuff, especially his Nazi days.
> 
> *<Yeah, Von Braun being German is what I was going at. But I don't recieve american radio, so I didn't listen to that>*
> 
> Still, doesn't mean he wasn't an American citizen.  We are a nation of immigrants, that's our strength.



I won't argue with that. But so far it's been about american inventors, not american money funding foreign immigrant inventors. Von braun was a great scientist, but america just made use of what he already knew when he was working for his own country. And there were many others like him, to say Einstein or Tesla. They weren't born, rised nor educated in the US. When talking about such things, whe should count only where these people were born and/or got education from, because that place should get the credit for letting out an over the averege person, not where they were at the moment when they invented things.


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

Grimfang said:


> got BarackRolled
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg


*FUCKING WIN!!!11! IN LARGE, BOLD, ALL CAPS, JUST BECAUSE i NEED TO EXPRESS HOW AWESOME THAT IS xD*


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## HumanLombax (Sep 9, 2008)

Erro said:


> *FUCKING WIN!!!11! IN LARGE, BOLD, ALL CAPS, JUST BECAUSE i NEED TO EXPRESS HOW AWESOME THAT IS xD*






Little i.... lol... all caps... im easily amused


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> I won't argue with that. But so far it's been about american inventors, not american money funding foreign immigrant inventors. Von braun was a great scientist, but america just made use of what he already knew when he was working for his own country. And there were many others like him, to say Einstein or Tesla. They weren't born, rised nor educated in the US. When talking about such things, whe should count only where these people were born and/or got education from, because that place should get the credit for letting out an over the averege person, not where they were at the moment when they invented things.



Not to mention that VonBraun should've been tried for war crimes for his involvement in the German missile program and deaths his inventions caused. It's not like he didn't know that he was developing ballistic missiles for civilian slaughter.


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## Erro (Sep 9, 2008)

HumanLombax said:


> Little i.... lol... all caps... im easily amused


Yeah I totally didn't notice that until after I posted it, and actually took a minute to figure out why it happened. xD *goes back to drowning himself in caffeinated tooth rotting goodness*


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## Draco_2k (Sep 9, 2008)

US is one of the worst-off countries in the world by most standards of human welfare, education and scientific progress. I'm pretty sure it was an established fact to anyone inside and outside the US who does not share IQ value with simple lifeforms like George W. Bush.


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## Kangamutt (Sep 9, 2008)

If you guys really want to compare inventions, why not go to the patent office sites?

American patent office
European patent office


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## Kume (Sep 9, 2008)

I dont care what the first post says, i didnt even read it. I just want to say America is fucking stupid, and the human race as a whole is even worse, just some more so that others ( example: AMERICA!! why the fuck is thsi war even going on still? either get the fuck out of there or blow the place up(( fan of the first choice, total hippie here))) If we dont shape up soon, the planet is going to die, either from all of the gasses from obese people farting, or a nuclear hollocaust happens, and i vote that the nukes are going to end us


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## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> If you guys really want to compare inventions, why not go to the patent office sites?
> 
> American patent office
> European patent office



a good idea on a first glance, but on the other hand, it can be misleading, as many people go on and patent many useless things. We'd really have to dig into it, and how many people here want to do that? 



Mr_foxx said:


> If we dont shape up soon, the planet is going to die, either from all of the gasses from obese people farting, or a nuclear hollocaust happens, and i vote that the nukes are going to end us



I'd prefer the nukes. Suffocating on farts is far worse then being ripped to shreds and burned alive.


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## AlexInsane (Sep 9, 2008)

I've said it once, let me say it again: America is the retard country of the world.

You've got the Brits, the French, the Germans, the Russians, all much more composed and cultured than we are. We're like Mike Teavee to their Charlie Bucket.


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## Kangamutt (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> a good idea on a first glance, but on the other hand, it can be misleading, as many people go on and patent many useless things. We'd really have to dig into it, and how many people here want to do that?



The sites do have built-in search engines, so if you guys really wanna look in on things just type in what you're looking for.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Sep 9, 2008)

Thomas Edison.  Nuff said.


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## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

LizardKing said:


> Stupid people tend to breed more as they're too thick to figure out contraceptives, so a place as big as America has an awful lot of them because there's always room for more trailers.


 
I don't feel that its a proper example to take a stab at someones economic status. To begin; a large amount of African Americans continue to come from impoverished area's, yet they continue to constitute a large body of America's most influential thinkers, artists and politicians.

How would you argue that someones former or ongoing economic status denotes their intelligence (outside plain elitism and economic xenophobia?) I believe it's there drive or will to succeed that determines how they live; and overall, the way they want to live. Where it is shouldn't be an issue. What that said issue should be is their overall lifes education, and not everyone takes it and buys a three story home. Even with their success, not everyone even has the ability.

I believe where someone lives, is just plain where they want to live (or where, more ultimately, they can afford to live.) I believe where someone goes with their life, must be a direction their comfortable with (or is sometimes the only option.) The mental or social state of stupidity, is however, a seperate choice, and we shouldn't let a misperception lock us into the argumentative confines of socio-economic bigotry.

Otherwise, we too, are victims of stupidity.


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## Azure (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> I won't argue with that. But so far it's been about american inventors, not american money funding foreign immigrant inventors. Von braun was a great scientist, but america just made use of what he already knew when he was working for his own country. And there were many others like him, to say Einstein or Tesla. They weren't born, rised nor educated in the US. When talking about such things, whe should count only where these people were born and/or got education from, because that place should get the credit for letting out an over the averege person, not where they were at the moment when they invented things.


Honestly, it's pretty stupid to argue who has the most of anything.  We invent shit, ya'll invent shit, and the world keeps turning.  Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians, and all other people of this world, have their own unique realms ov invention, it's rather pointless to argue about whose contribution is greatest.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Honestly, it's pretty stupid to argue who has the most of anything.  We invent shit, ya'll invent shit, and the world keeps turning.  Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians, and all other people of this world, have their own unique realms ov invention, it's rather pointless to argue about whose contribution is greatest.



To tell the truth, I don't give a damn either. But I don't really have anything better to do. And making fun of a pointless discussion in a troll thread is as good as anything.


----------



## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> To tell the truth, I don't give a damn either. But I don't really have anything better to do. And making fun of a pointless discussion is as good as anything.


 
Sex > Making Fun of Pointless Discussion

VAULT - GET TO IT!

EDIT: NINJA



> troll thread


 
GET TO IT!


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Bambi said:


> Sex > Making Fun of Pointless Discussion
> 
> VAULT - GET TO IT!



BAWWWW but my wrists hurt XD


----------



## Tycho (Sep 9, 2008)

Are Americans stupid? Some are.

Are we that much more stupid than the rest of the world? Probably not.

The problem is that mediocrity is being rewarded and encouraged.  This elevates the idiots, the no-account jerks, and the morally barren to a higher position in society, making them more visible.  Who's doing the elevating? Well, that's a matter for debate.  Is it the idiots who are already in high places, seeking to elevate their kindred morons to a higher status? Is it morally bankrupt people, seeking to use the fools as puppets and shields, for the purpose of creating and maintaining a corrupt "shadow government" with little risk to themselves?

Maybe the problem is simply being exaggerated by the rest of the world.  Everybody loves to make fun of the USA.  It's actually considered a GOOD thing, a POPULAR thing to look down one's nose at America in MANY places in the world, in MANY different walks of life.  Everyone loves to watch the country that was once an overachiever stumble and stagger.  (And yet people keep immigrating here.  Go figure.)

The rest of the world seems determined to shame the citizens of the USA into self hatred, submission, supplication and despair.  I, personally, don't need the rest of the world's help with this.  Within my relatively brief lifetime I have seen the USA plummet into ruin at the hands both our own government and the rest of the world.  I know the USA is faltering.  I'm not going to lie down and cry like a baby about it, though.  I intend to be part of the solution to our problem.  I use the power of the vote that has been given to me by generations of struggle towards a better country by my predecessors.  A vote that DOES actually have some power, more than I can say for MANY other places in the world.

So, go ahead, poke fun at us, call America stupid.  Whatever bolsters your patriotic egos, whatever gives you some feeling of superiority over a country that risen farther, faster than most any other.


----------



## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Are Americans stupid? Some are.
> 
> Are we that much more stupid than the rest of the world? Probably not.
> 
> ...


 
Tycho. /me cries

I love you!

/me blows nose: SppiFFFFFFFF!!!


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

Tycho, I respect you, but can you please drop the nationalist act?

Poland had a much harder and longer path through the ages, has suffered in ways Americans don't even imagine, including being completely erased from maps for over a century. Yet we don't take that and rub in people's faces all the time or worship idols (like the US Constitution).

Instead of posting nationalism-fueled rants, ask yourself _why_ looking down on America suddenly became mainstream.


----------



## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Tycho, I respect you, but can you please drop the nationalist act?
> 
> Instead of posting nationalism-fueled rants, ask yourself _why_ looking down on America suddenly became mainstream.


 
It's not Nationalistic. Nor patriotic.

He was addressing, "the country bashing trend" as it where.

As for why America's being looked down on? Did you read his post? He knows, but doesn't need the worlds reminder. Which is why he's going to use the power of voting, to stop BS from happening.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Tycho, I respect you, but can you please drop the nationalist act?
> 
> Poland had a much harder and longer path through the ages, has suffered in ways Americans don't even imagine, including being completely erased from maps for over a century. Yet we don't take that and rub in people's faces all the time or worship idols (like the US Constitution).
> 
> Instead of posting nationalism-fueled rants, ask yourself _why_ looking down on America suddenly became mainstream.



BÅ‚agam ciÄ™, chÅ‚opie, SKOÅƒCZ... Jak na razie wiÄ™kszoÅ›Ä‡ bÄ™dzie miaÅ‚a tylko ubaw z 'tego twardogÅ‚owego polaczka'. I szczerze, bÄ™dÄ… mieli racjÄ™, bo z tego co dotychczas powiedziaÅ‚eÅ› na takÄ… osobÄ™ wychodzisz. ZostaÅ‚o dowiedzione Å¼e teÅ¼ mamy wynalazcÃ³w, moÅ¼na wiÄ™c rzuciÄ‡ w kÄ…t to nacjonalistyczne pieprzenie. To, Å¼e przytoczysz polskÄ… historiÄ™ wiÄ™kszoÅ›Ä‡ ludzi tu naprawdÄ™ gÃ³wno obchodzi.


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

W sumie racja. Inna sprawa, Å¼e po prostu mam osobiÅ›cie doÅ›Ä‡ amerykaÅ„skiego pieprzenia o "mocy gÅ‚osowania" itd., szczegÃ³lnie gdy ta "moc" wygraÅ‚a GWB po raz drugi.

Ale masz racjÄ™. Sztuki wycofania sie w odpowiednim momencie jeszcze nie opanowaÅ‚em w stopniu dostatecznym.

A przykÅ‚ad historii przytoczyÅ‚em, by wskazaÄ‡, Å¼e Ameryka wcale nie miaÅ‚a tak Åºle podczas historii.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Tycho, I respect you, but can you please drop the nationalist act?



I'm sorry, giving a damn about my country and recognizing that it is not only NOT the worst place on Earth, but even in its current state of ruin it is STILL doing better than a large portion of the rest of the world, and that it still has the potential to be even BETTER = Nazism?



Mikael Grizzly said:


> Poland had a much harder and longer path through the ages, has suffered in ways Americans don't even imagine, including being completely erased from maps for over a century. Yet we don't take that and rub in people's faces all the time or worship idols (like the US Constitution).



Yay, here's a cookie, enjoy your Polish pity party.  Poland has been dealt a number of bad hands over the years.  I suppose you want to blame us for Poland's hardships? Suffering more doesn't make a country greater, for the same reason suffering doesn't make a homeless leper a greater human being than a productive blue-collar worker.  Lech Walesa isn't great because of what he endured, he's great because of what he ACCOMPLISHED.  And since when did the US Constitution become a golden calf? Last I checked the Constitution DID still mean something.  And WORSHIP? I think you confuse "worship" with "hold dear" and "strive to uphold and live by to the best of my abilities as a US citizen".



Mikael Grizzly said:


> Instead of posting nationalism-fueled rants, ask yourself _why_ looking down on America suddenly became mainstream.



Actually, I believe I already addressed that (though perhaps not in an EXTREMELY direct fashion) in my earlier post.

Also: Responding to my post in a language I have not learned and cannot respond to without using some form of translation is not exactly mature, nor does it make your argument (whatever it may be) any more potent, nor does it validate it or give it merit any further than the actual meaning of the words you have typed/written.

Also also: Nazism = nationalism.  That is the equivocation you were insinuating, I'm fairly sure of it.  It should be noted that Nazism itself was nationalism.  The genocide, the supremacist beliefs, those were icing on the nationalist cake.

Seriously, the people who AUTOMATICALLY assume Nazism was about NOTHING but ethnic cleansing and racial supremacy are the same types of people who think the American Civil War was fought over slavery.


----------



## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> BÅ‚agam ciÄ™, chÅ‚opie, SKOÅƒCZ... Jak na razie wiÄ™kszoÅ›Ä‡ bÄ™dzie miaÅ‚a tylko ubaw z 'tego twardogÅ‚owego polaczka'. I szczerze, bÄ™dÄ… mieli racjÄ™, bo z tego co dotychczas powiedziaÅ‚eÅ› na takÄ… osobÄ™ wychodzisz. ZostaÅ‚o dowiedzione Å¼e teÅ¼ mamy wynalazcÃ³w, moÅ¼na wiÄ™c rzuciÄ‡ w kÄ…t to nacjonalistyczne pieprzenie. To, Å¼e przytoczysz polskÄ… historiÄ™ wiÄ™kszoÅ›Ä‡ ludzi tu naprawdÄ™ gÃ³wno obchodzi.


 
Hey! I care about that shit ... its just noone posted sources until afterward.

Ø§Ù†Ø§ ï¿½*Ù‚Ø§ ØŒ ï¿½*Ù‚Ø§ ØŒ ï¿½*Ù‚Ø§ ØŒ ï¿½*Ù‚Ø§ Ø¹Ù† Ø§Ù„Ø±Ø¹Ø§ÙŠÙ‡ Ø§Ù„Ø¨ÙˆÙ„Ù†Ø¯ÙŠÙ‡ Ø§Ù„ØªØ§Ø±ÙŠØ®.

Damn my arabic character map! ... or is it the forums fault? /me shrugs

Oh vei! I'll just try again:

Nevermind. FA is ... sinistarh ...


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Bambi said:


> Hey! I care about that shit ... its just noone posted sources until afterward.



Hence the 'most'.



Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Also: Responding to my post in a language I have not learned and cannot respond to without using some form of translation is not exactly mature, nor does it make your argument (whatever it may be) any more potent, nor does it validate it or give it merit any further than the actual meaning of the words you have typed/written.



The messege had no relevance to any other person posting in this thread. My bad for not using PM to do that.


----------



## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Hence the 'most'.


 
... I noticed; but wasn't sure if I was being lumped in with a terrible sum.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Bambi said:


> ... I noticed; but wasn't sure if I was being lumped in with a terrible sum.



I don't know who gives a shit and who does not. If you do, count yourself out, I guess...


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> I'm sorry, giving a damn about my country and recognizing that it is not only NOT the worst place on Earth, but even in its current state of ruin it is STILL doing better than a large portion of the rest of the world, and that it still has the potential to be even BETTER = Nazism?



You obviously haven't done your homework.

Nationalism isn't nazism. Nationalism is blind love of one's country and putting it ahead of everyone else, which is what you've done, or at least, how I received that particular post.



> Yay, here's a cookie, enjoy your Polish pity party.  Poland has been dealt a number of bad hands over the years.  I suppose you want to blame us for Poland's hardships? Suffering more doesn't make a country greater, for the same reason suffering doesn't make a homeless leper a greater human being than a productive blue-collar worker.  Lech Walesa isn't great because of what he endured, he's great because of what he ACCOMPLISHED.  And since when did the US Constitution become a golden calf? Last I checked the Constitution DID still mean something.  And WORSHIP? I think you confuse "worship" with "hold dear" and "strive to uphold and live by to the best of my abilities as a US citizen".



It is a golden calf if it hasn't been reevaluated and thoroughly rewritten since the eighteen century. And no, that doesn't mean it's good. 

As for the first part, it was intented to point out that America really didn't have that hard of a time estabilishing its democracy, especially not compared to Poland. 

Actually, I believe I already addressed that (though perhaps not in an EXTREMELY direct fashion) in my earlier post.



> Also: Responding to my post in a language I have not learned and cannot respond to without using some form of translation is not exactly mature, nor does it make your argument (whatever it may be) any more potent, nor does it validate it or give it merit any further than the actual meaning of the words you have typed/written.



That wasn't a reply, but an exchange between me and szopaw.



> Also also: Nazism = nationalism.  That is the equivocation you were insinuating, I'm fairly sure of it.  It should be noted that Nazism itself was nationalism.  The genocide, the supremacist beliefs, those were icing on the nationalist cake.



No, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to point out that your post, which claimed that America is somehow superior, is pretty much like a nationalist statement.

Nationalism doesn't equal nazism, my friend.


----------



## Bambi (Sep 9, 2008)

> It is a golden calf if it hasn't been reevaluated and thoroughly rewritten since the eighteen century. And no, that doesn't mean it's good.


 
No, it's not golden calf; but it certainly is important to any American, given our systems current corruption.



> No, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to point out that your post, which claimed that America is somehow superior, is pretty much like a nationalist statement.


 
I don't think these where his exacts words; he acknowledged our country had flaws. If you thought his statement was nationalistic; that's fine. At least his nationalism didn't submit your country to statistical or socio-economic bigotry. Besides, if I may?

You have a real nice way of writing in your ethnic / original language of origin.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 9, 2008)

Apparently there has been misinterpretation on both ends.

I do not blindly or fanatically love my country.  Putting it ahead of everyone else - I live here, it is in my interests to see my country enjoy success in its peacetime endeavors.  Yes, I'm going to put it ahead of other countries to some extent - I'm not going to groom and walk my neighbor's dog and neglect my own.

The fact that I was quoted in szopaw's post was confusing.

As for the Constitution not having been rewritten since the 18th century - It could stand to see a few updates, to keep up with the issues present in modern America.  That being said, it is LARGELY a damn good piece of work, hence its longevity.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> The fact that I was quoted in szopaw's post was confusing.



You weren't, Mikael was. No offence though.


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 9, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Apparently there has been misinterpretation on both ends.



I did notice that.



> I do not blindly or fanatically love my country.  Putting it ahead of everyone else - I live here, it is in my interests to see my country enjoy success in its peacetime endeavors.  Yes, I'm going to put it ahead of other countries to some extent - I'm not going to groom and walk my neighbor's dog and neglect my own.



Yes. I think my position on America is pretty much unclear, so let me clarify: I respect America and Americans in general, after all, Poles also participated in the War for Independence (T. Kosciuszko being one of the most famous). 

What bothers me is the AMERICA FUCK YEAH attitude that somehow became prevalent and prevents moderate, intelligent people like you T., from being the spokesmen.

That and the irresponsibility of the US government for the past eight years, which didn't exactly do wonders to gas prices and global security.

So, while it may seem I hate America, I don't. I just dislike it's flaws strongly, but then again, don't we all?

The fact that I was quoted in szopaw's post was confusing.



> As for the Constitution not having been rewritten since the 18th century - It could stand to see a few updates, to keep up with the issues present in modern America.  That being said, it is LARGELY a damn good piece of work, hence its longevity.



It is good, but could be improved. The French civil code is a revised Code Civil from 1804, and the German Burgerliches Gesetzbuch is from 1900, also revised. Old doesn't mean bad - as long as it's kept to date.



> You have a real nice way of writing in your ethnic / original language of origin. :smile:



Well, I believe that you are what you write... and I like nice writing.  

Which pretty much makes me a borderline insane psychopath, but, eh, better that than an average Joe.


----------



## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

Mr_foxx said:


> If we dont shape up soon, the planet is going to die, either from all of the gasses from obese people farting, or a nuclear hollocaust happens, and i vote that the nukes are going to end us



"This is the way the world ends/This is the way the world ends/This is the way the world ends/Not with a bang, but a whimper" -T.S. Eliot


----------



## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

Bambi said:


> Yet, America Bashing isn't new -- but is it valid?



Other countries love to bash America...until they need our help. Some natural disaster (earthquake, volcano, hurricane/typhoon, etc) or another country invades that country, and suddenly everyone turns to the U.S. for help...until the crisis is over, then it's right back to bashing America. Americans are the most generous people in the world (Americans as a whole donate more money and supplies than any other country), and what do we get for it? A slap in the face.


----------



## bozzles (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't know about other places in America, but where I lives seems to have quite a population of idiots.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> Other countries love to bash America...until they need our help. Some natural disaster (earthquake, volcano, hurricane/typhoon, etc) or another country invades that country, and suddenly everyone turns to the U.S. for help...until the crisis is over, then it's right back to bashing America. Americans are the most generous people in the world (Americans as a whole donate more money and supplies than any other country), and what do we get for it? A slap in the face.



Err... Tell me WHEN exactly did anyone turn to USA for help? Especially when it came to natural disasters that weren't on american soil? And how many times was it that USA came wheter anyone asked or not? Mostly with soldiers? And tell me nowadays, because america from 70 years ago is not the same as now, as far as I know.


----------



## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Err... Tell me WHEN exactly did anyone turn to USA for help? Especially when it came to natural disasters that weren't on american soil? And how many times was it that USA came wheter anyone asked or not? Mostly with soldiers? And tell me nowadays, because america from 70 years ago is not the same as now, as far as I know.



The Tsunami in Southeast Asia ring a bell? World War I? World War II? Korean War? Vietnam War? Persian Gulf? I could go on and on about Americans sending aid.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> The Tsunami in Southeast Asia ring a bell? World War I? World War II? Korean War? Vietnam War? Persian Gulf? I could go on and on about Americans sending aid.



Ok, the tsunami - yes. But everyone helped, it was not generous of you that you did, it would be downright shameful if you didn't! Also, are you serious when mentioning the wars? during WW1 american influence was minor, almost nonexistant. It wasn't really a Warld War, it was a a grand scale european conflict. In WW2 you stepped in because of the Japaniese agression, not because of your kind heart as far as I know (and I mean both the material help before Pearl Harbour and military after) because they were allied with the Reich. And if you give the Cold War era conflicts as an argument... You really should know the difference between generosity an self-interest. The same goes for both Gulf wars.

And once again the main thing - when did anyone TURN to USA for help? Because that is the thing I'm curious about. And I meant after the Cold War. Because people are NOW bashing america and I want to know who was NOW a hypocrite. Not 50 years ago and more(if people were actually bashing america then, I don't know)


----------



## Takun (Sep 9, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Do you listen to Coast 2 Coast AM?  They did a huge show on Von Braun a couple of weeks ago, really interesting stuff, especially his Nazi days.  Still, doesn't mean he wasn't an American citizen.  We are a nation of immigrants, that's our strength.
> 
> 
> Fixed for ya, oh, and yeah, studies like that have methodology that makes me bust a gut.  ITT, Eurofags who envy my largess and wealth.  Eat your heart out faggots.  And Bambi, you make fine points as always, people just don't quite grasp them.
> ...



If you think teaching standards are lax, come to Iowa and see the shit my parents have to go through just to teach.  Fucking regulatory BULLSHIT paper work take 95% of their time.  I know they love spending 10 hours up at the school on weekends just to get it done.

*sigh* YAY No Child Left Behind.  Let's push kids who didn't learn the skills the first time ahead anyway and call it good and then wonder why they don't keep up.

note: There are plenty of shitty teachers in the system.  I admit.


----------



## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Ok, the tsunami - yes. But everyone helped, it was not generous of you that you did, it would be downright shameful if you didn't! Also, are you serious when mentioning the wars? during WW1 american influence was minor, almost nonexistant. It wasn't really a Warld War, it was a a grand scale european conflict. In WW2 you stepped in because of the Japaniese agression, not because of your kind heart as far as I know (and I mean both the material help before Pearl Harbour and military after) because they were allied with the Reich. And if you give the Cold War era conflicts as an argument... You really should know the difference between generosity an self-interest. The same goes for both Gulf wars.
> 
> And once again the main thing - when did anyone TURN to USA for help? Because that is the thing I'm curious about. And I meant after the Cold War.



That's just sad that you believe that nobody has ever turned to the U.S. for help. Earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanoes, whatever, countries DO turn to the U.S. for help, whether you choose to believe it or not, and Americans DO give aid, whether you believe it or not.


----------



## Thatch (Sep 9, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> That's just sad that you believe that nobody has ever turned to the U.S. for help. Earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanoes, whatever, countries DO turn to the U.S. for help, whether you choose to believe it or not, and Americans DO give aid, whether you believe it or not.



It's not my not believing. Americans DO give aid. As do most other coutries. Giving help to disaster victims is only moral. But you said that USA has been *ASKED* for help loads of times, then bashed in return. I ask you when. If you are so sure, you must know, at least more or less. Do not change the topic to my person, answer the simple question.


----------



## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

szopaw said:


> It's not my not believing. Americans DO give aid. As do most other coutries. But you said that USA has been *ASKED* for help loads of times, I ask you when. If you are so sure, you must know, at least more or less. Do not change the topic to my person, answer the simple question.



And I already answered your question. You chose not to accept the response.


----------



## Xipoid (Sep 9, 2008)

It's just an average. (statistics joke)


----------



## Mr.LEET (Sep 9, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> Other countries love to bash America...until they need our help. Some natural disaster (earthquake, volcano, hurricane/typhoon, etc) or another country invades that country, and suddenly everyone turns to the U.S. for help...until the crisis is over, then it's right back to bashing America. Americans are the most generous people in the world (Americans as a whole donate more money and supplies than any other country), and what do we get for it? A slap in the face.



How many wars has America started? How many countries does it bully?


----------



## Ty Vulpine (Sep 9, 2008)

Mr.LEET said:


> How many wars has America started? How many countries does it bully?



How many wars? Two. The Revolutionary War (to gain our independence) and the current war in Iraq.

How many countries does it bully? None.


----------



## Uro (Sep 9, 2008)

This thread is idiotic.


----------



## Dyluck (Sep 9, 2008)

Everyone is stupid.

Especially YOU.


----------



## Uro (Sep 9, 2008)

David M. Awesome said:


> Everyone is stupid.
> 
> Especially YOU.



Damn David M. Awesome, you got me.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 9, 2008)

David M. Awesome said:


> Everyone is stupid.
> 
> Especially YOU.



YOURFACEYOURFACEYOURFACEYOURFACE


----------



## Takun (Sep 9, 2008)

AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*is like the least patriotic person ever*

I laugh when on the news people are worried.  "DOES HE (BARACK) _REALLY _LOVE AMERICA?!?!"


----------



## AlexInsane (Sep 9, 2008)

I already told you, Obama is a terrorist. He hates America, just like all the rest of us Democrats.


----------



## Dyluck (Sep 9, 2008)

Uro said:


> Damn David M. Awesome, you got me.



Now everyone will know your horrible secret.



Tycho The Itinerant said:


> YOURFACEYOURFACEYOURFACEYOURFACE



YOU DARE BRING - YOURFACE - INTO MY LAIR? YOU MUST DIE


----------



## NerdyMunk (Sep 9, 2008)

When I come back to read a book (I have read before) I don't say, "What the hell am I reading?" Usually I have some familiarity on how the book is written. Few might know what I mean, but I think that's one way we can think we are smart. And we invented hotdogs.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 9, 2008)

Takumi_L said:


> "DOES HE (BARACK) _REALLY _LOVE AMERICA?!?!"



Yes, he does, but not in THAT way.  I mean, he's not into countryophilia, that's just sick.


----------



## Lobar (Sep 9, 2008)

I'd like to think Americans were overall pretty intelligent, but this is the country where Ollie North has a show on a major news network* and almost nobody feels that there's something fundamentally WRONG about that.  At the same time though, I doubt the rest of the world fares much better on average.

*actually more like a one-sided 24-hour televised op-ed but who's counting


----------



## Science Fox (Sep 9, 2008)

The day that a human being without flaw appears on this earth and questions the intelligence of us all, will be the day that I heed arguments over the intelligence of others. Otherwise, discussing the flaws of others is, in my belief, intellectually dishonest. Just think of how many neat inventions, awesome discoveries and profound revelations could be made, by people of all nations, if we could simply stop arguing. Instead of finding faults and differences in each other, we should be finding strengths and similarities. Imagine what could be... it is staggering...


----------



## Azure (Sep 10, 2008)

AlexInsane said:


> I already told you, Obama is a terrorist. He hates America, just like all the rest of us Democrats.


Smartest thing said in this thread(JK), except for Tycho's brilliance.  And the Constitution has stood longer than pretty much any single country's charter, so I'd say it's a damn fine piece of work myself.  Talk about planning ahead, 230 years, that is.


----------



## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm just happy you guys haven't accidentally rolled over and crushed us yet.


----------



## Dyluck (Sep 10, 2008)

Is that a fat joke?


----------



## Tycho (Sep 10, 2008)

nameless_ermine said:


> I'm just happy you guys haven't accidentally rolled over and crushed us yet.



Hey, you fags are the ones on top, and without Alaska under you to help support you, you're fucking HEAVY.


----------



## Monak (Sep 10, 2008)

Its not the the US is stupid.  Its just the fact that those who run it look stupid cause they always try for the easy fix.  The easy fix never works and tends to put us in a bad light.


----------



## Takun (Sep 10, 2008)

Yeah but Mexico is under us in the giant Country orgy that is America.


----------



## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 10, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Smartest thing said in this thread(JK), except for Tycho's brilliance.  And the Constitution has stood longer than pretty much any single country's charter, so I'd say it's a damn fine piece of work myself.  Talk about planning ahead, 230 years, that is.



Compare the historical context, though. America currently pretty much holds the world record for uniterrupted existence - it's existence as a country was never really threatened, explaining why it still stands.

It needs a rewrite to update it, though.


----------



## Azure (Sep 10, 2008)

Just an idle question.  What do people think need updating?


----------



## Wolf-Bone (Sep 10, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Just an idle question.  What do people think need updating?



like, I dunno, maybe joining the rest of the western world in the 21st century so that maybe we'll stand a chance against the march towards totalitarianism/armaggeddon that is virtually every other country instead of you being their whore?


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## Draco_2k (Sep 10, 2008)

> Is America really stupid?


Yes we you they are.


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## eternal_flare (Sep 10, 2008)

Shark_the_raptor said:


> Thomas Edison.  Nuff said.



That's an exception, Shark, this applies to you as well.


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Smartest thing said in this thread(JK), except for Tycho's brilliance.  And the Constitution has stood longer than pretty much any single country's charter, so I'd say it's a damn fine piece of work myself.  Talk about planning ahead, 230 years, that is.



Oh, I have to disagree. It's easy to say that being on the other side of the world from every conflict up to the nuclear danger of the Cold War. Just because something held when undisturbed, it doesn't mean it's ideal. Besides, every major european country is over a millenium old. So 230 years isn't so much in comparison.

I won't comment if it needs changeing or not, it's your problem, I don't give a damn.


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## StainMcGorver (Sep 10, 2008)

Let's quit bitching about Americans, Europe. IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR HELP YOU WOULD ALL BE SPEAKING GERMAN, ASSHOLES!


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

StainMcGorver said:


> Let's quit bitching about Americans, Europe. IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR HELP YOU WOULD ALL BE SPEAKING GERMAN, ASSHOLES!



If we failed, you too. And you almost were too late either. If the Reich won the Battle for Brittain, it would all be lost. No need for prising either side here.


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## StainMcGorver (Sep 10, 2008)

szopaw said:


> If we failed, you too. No need for prising either side here.


But you would be dead. So quit bitching about us.


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## Kajet (Sep 10, 2008)

StainMcGorver said:


> Let's quit bitching about Americans, Europe. IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR HELP YOU WOULD ALL BE SPEAKING GERMAN, ASSHOLES!



Actually the rest of the world should be bitching about how we took so freaking long to help them out.


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

StainMcGorver said:


> But you would be dead. So quit bitching about us.



So would I speak german or be dead? Make up your mind


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## StainMcGorver (Sep 10, 2008)

Probably be dead. Or you could be speaking German.
Depends on what your ancestors looked like.


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

StainMcGorver said:


> Probably be dead. Or you could be speaking German.
> Depends on what your ancestors looked like.



To tell the truth, probably dead, I'm shitty at speaking german. Besides, there was a Nazi concentration camp nearby.

But enough about that, we were in the hands of USSR instead, so thank you very much.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 10, 2008)

StainMcGorver said:


> Let's quit bitching about Americans, Europe. IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR HELP YOU WOULD ALL BE SPEAKING GERMAN, ASSHOLES!



Hahahahaha, no.

That's the stupidest, most idiotic claim ever to be made. The Third Reich would fall regardless of American aid, crushed by the hammer of the Soviet Union and it's massive armoured divisions.

To counter the inevitable "Fall Barbarossa" argument, no, Germans didn't have superior equipment - they invaded Russia with training tanks, tankettes and very limited numbers of tanks that can be considered MBTs, and a comparably small airforce. The USSR, on the other hand, had a massive amount of high quality MBTs (the T-34 was unrivaled on the battlefield in 1942) and heavy tanks (The IS-2 and the more primitive KW, both forced Germans to use anti-aircraft 88mm cannons against them, as most German tanks couldn't damage their armour at any but the closest range), supported by a large airforce composed of modern fighters and fighter-bombers.

Why did the Germans succeed then? Simple. USSR soldiers lacked training, and many abandoned their posts, not starting the vehicles even. Many planes didn't even take off, as no order was given. This is another failure - while German generals led their troops from command posts basically ON the frontlines, the Soviet officers were issuing orders from deep within their own territory, via easily damaged telephones. The command chain was disrupted by the German attack and the army fell apart.

Or rather, a part of it, since the USSR had much, much more troops and ordnance at their disposal. The Soviet counter attack was a matter of time, as divisions from deep within the Soviet Union made their way to the Soviet-German border. If the Germans could estabilish defence lines on the Ural, they might've stood a chance. Alas, they didn't, and the rest is history.


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## Bambi (Sep 10, 2008)

> The Third Reich would fall regardless of American aid, crushed by the hammer of the Soviet Union and it's massive armoured divisions.


 
Not really -- without the United States, Britain, Canada etc. Germany would've still had all of its major Western Military Factories operational. Without nessecarly needing an Atlantic Wall, Germany could've theoretically stopped the Russians as their main thrust bottled up in through Poland. This wouldn't have prevented the Germans from loosing their capital, but look at this clash as you would Stalingrad:

The battle lasted as long as it did for the Russians, because their Industrial / Military Production hadn't been interdicted east of the URAL's. Since we already know its personal importance (i.e, it was the City of Stalin), Berlin; even without having the significance of being named after Hitler, would've like gone through its own to and fro.

What I find poor about any discussion, is how some people consider that World War II could've been won without America or Russia; or Britain, France, Poland, or Canada. Not true. Germany could've fought the Russians to a stalemate and secured its place as a technologically advanced, "North Korea in Europe". The Endgame: The Holocaust would've finished off the ethnic Poles and Jews, and Hitler would've likely chose either Himmler or Rommel to be his successor; either securing its military might (Rommel) or consolidating its own fanaticism (Himmler). This is of course assuming Rommel had no airstrike to be wounded in, and without a large threat to its western territory; Rommel likely would've never been put on trial for a plot to assasinate Hitler.

I think we should be thankful that we all managed to stop the NSDAP from doing the damage it wanted to do. Having stated that, I've still got in ingrained in my head, that from a conflict that occured more then 60 years ago, I have EVERYONE to thank for me not being the victim of a National Socialist take over.

Let's nip this in the butt here in reguards to World War II:

Without one ally, the others would've lost something or fallen.


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

Bambi said:


> Not really -- without the United States, Britain, Canada etc. Germany would've still had all of its major Western Military Factories operational. Without nessecarly needing an Atlantic Wall, Germany could've theoretically stopped the Russians as their main thrust bottled up in through Poland. This wouldn't have prevented the Germans from loosing their capital, but look at this clash as you would Stalingrad:
> 
> The battle lasted as long as it did for the Russians, because their Industrial / Military Production hadn't been interdicted east of the URAL's. Since we already know its personal importance (i.e, it was the City of Stalin), Berlin; even without having the significance of being named after Hitler, would've like gone through its own to and fro.
> 
> ...



Very true. Also many people forget that the war could have been lost when it barely started. The Battle for Brittain was won by a miracle (ie Hitler's orders to attack cities instead of british plane factories, airfeilds ect military objects). If Britain fell then, the war in the arena of the midterenian sea also could have looked different. And without danger in that area, it is not sure if USSR would have held when those troops would have been sent to the east front. To tell the truth, the Reich lost only thanks to Hitler's stupid decisions in the first stages of the war.


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## Tycho (Sep 10, 2008)

szopaw said:


> To tell the truth, the Reich lost only thanks to Hitler's stupid decisions in the first stages of the war.



He was a demagogue and a megalomaniac, not a general and a strategist.

(Thankfully)


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> (Thankfully)



And how. But he didn't have to be a strategist. It's just if he gave a free hand to his generals, the war would be lost. But for our luck, he did pressure them quite hard, so they often didn't do what they wanted and what would be best for their army.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 10, 2008)

While I do agree with Bambi's points to a degree, I disagree that Germany could create a bottle neck in Poland - it's simply impossible. Our terrain isn't exactly anti-tank like Finland's, and once Soviet tanks would enter our soil, there'd be no stopping them.

That, and the German war machine would never match the technological refinement and output of the Soviet one, which had nearly half a continent at it's disposal. 

Just compare T-34s and anything below the Panther.


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 10, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Very true. Also many people forget that the war could have been lost when it barely started. The Battle for Brittain was won by a miracle (ie Hitler's orders to attack cities instead of british plane factories, airfeilds ect military objects). If Britain fell then, the war in the arena of the midterenian sea also could have looked different. And without danger in that area, it is not sure if USSR would have held when those troops would have been sent to the east front. To tell the truth, the Reich lost only thanks to Hitler's stupid decisions in the first stages of the war.



Or if Mussolini's forces hadn't gotten stuck in Northern Africa and Mussolini had to ask Hitler for help.


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> Or if Mussolini's forces hadn't gotten stuck in Northern Africa and Mussolini had to ask Hitler for help.



True, but italian military was almost useless. So it is very unlikely that they would do anything. On the other hand all it would take from Hitler was one decision - to trust his generals. That's how close to being lost was WW2. One change of heart from a psychopath.


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 10, 2008)

szopaw said:


> True, but italian military was almost useless. So it is very unlikely that they would do anything. On the other hand all it would take from Hitler was one decision - to trust his generals. That's how close to being lost was WW2. One change of heart from a psychopath.



Plus, Germany was secreting developing jet planes that could have turned the war back in it's favor (and the Allies had no warning about the jets until after the war) but the Allies were able to deliver the KO blow before it went into mass production.


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## Thatch (Sep 10, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> Plus, Germany was secreting developing jet planes that could have turned the war back in it's favor (and the Allies had no warning about the jets until after the war) but the Allies were able to deliver the KO blow before it went into mass production.



Yeah, let's better not even get started on technology... If they managed to apply on the battlefield half of what they desinged, it would be swift.


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## Wolf-Bone (Sep 10, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> like, I dunno, maybe joining the rest of the western world in the 21st century so that maybe we'll stand a chance against the march towards totalitarianism/armaggeddon that is virtually every other country instead of you being their whore?



This is what I said. All the shit since is you guys debating _Europe_, and _the better part of a century ago at that_. Right now, I'm more "with the terrorists" than with America and her hypocritical existence, the main purpose of which seems to be to serve China, Saudi Arabia and Zionism. Excuse me, what the fuck good is rushing in at the last minute to save the world from the Nazis, then proceeding to fend off the USSR long enough to let the inevitable happen, and then start a war on terrorism only to botch it while you're handing your own damned country over to communists, Nazis-middle-eastern-style, and, oh yeah, TERRORISTS!

Out of all those, terrorism is really the oldest, so really, it makes more sense to support terrorism than to support America/what America supports. China, Isreal, Saudi Arabia and their respective communism, expansionist Zionism and theocracy are all much younger concepts which have failed in the past, whereas terrorism is older than all of them and is alive and well in the 21st century. I'm with terrorism. The middle eastern cultures just don't know how to do it right.


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## NekoFox08 (Sep 10, 2008)

is america stupid?
answer: yes

they're stupid in every way possible... I'll leave the debate up to you =3


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 10, 2008)

NekoFox08 said:


> is america stupid?
> answer: yes
> 
> they're stupid in every way possible... I'll leave the debate up to you =3



Right...even though most of modern inventions came from Americans.


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## NekoFox08 (Sep 10, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> Right...even though most of modern inventions came from Americans.


sry, I should have said "exept when it came to entertainment"... I consider america stupid for the mere fact that george bush was even considered a human being... 0_o you know there's proof that george bush sank his teeth into lady liberty?! it's true! I saw it


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## Leasara (Sep 11, 2008)

Is America really stupid?

No, but a lot of US Citizens seem happier when they don't have to think.


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## Tycho (Sep 11, 2008)

Leasara said:


> Is America really stupid?
> 
> No, but a lot of US Citizens seem happier when they don't have to think occupy their mind with anything but reality TV and internet porn.



Fix'd (I think)


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## Leasara (Sep 11, 2008)

Yeah, I was just trying to keep it simple


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## Azure (Sep 11, 2008)

Tycho The Itinerant said:


> Fix'd (I think)


This.  Is anybody else tired of reality tv?  I saw a show on break at work today, well, it just speaks for itself.  America, how she has fallen, I mean, this shit was in the PRIME TIMESLOT, 7-8pm, AND PEOPLE ARE WATCHING IT!  I support IQ tests for future voters, as I have little faith people execute their responsibilities to their country in a serious manner anymore.  I mean, just look!! A FUCKING REALITY SHOW ABOUT FUCKING WEIRDO ASS DOG OWNERS AND THEIR DOGS!! http://www.greatestamericandogshow.com/


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 11, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> Plus, Germany was secreting developing jet planes that could have turned the war back in it's favor (and the Allies had no warning about the jets until after the war) but the Allies were able to deliver the KO blow before it went into mass production.



Don't forget, Germans were also the first to introduce camouflage uniforms as a standard (other armies weren't using camo as standard at that time) and were the first to develop a working NV system for frontline troops, the ZielgerÃ¤t 1229 "Vampir", both in tank and personnel variants.


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 11, 2008)

Leasara said:


> Is America really stupid?
> 
> No, but a lot of US Citizens seem happier when they don't have to think.



No, Americans generally have their own problems to deal with and put those ahead of the country's problems.


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## VGJustice (Sep 11, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> This.  Is anybody else tired of reality tv?  I saw a show on break at work today, well, it just speaks for itself.  America, how she has fallen, I mean, this shit was in the PRIME TIMESLOT, 7-8pm, AND PEOPLE ARE WATCHING IT!  I support IQ tests for future voters, as I have little faith people execute their responsibilities to their country in a serious manner anymore.  I mean, just look!! A FUCKING REALITY SHOW ABOUT FUCKING WEIRDO ASS DOG OWNERS AND THEIR DOGS!! http://www.greatestamericandogshow.com/


It's at times like this that I'm thankful my father decided a decade ago that TV was something we could do without.

I keep missing this stupidass crap. Gives me the warm fuzzies.

And just for the record, I'm American. At the tender age of 9 I was recorded as having an IQ somewhere around 90. So they put me into the special education class since I obviously needed some extra guidance. Which was pretty cool, lots of abstract thinking and all. Guess what class I was taken out of so that I could have this? Basic English. I've had a hell of a time with spelling, largely because of this extremely short sighted "help". And if you're wondering, yes. Public education. I've actually spent the last few years of my life trying to correct that problem, among a slew of others (like world history. bastards in High School Social Studies couldn't stop talking about the birth of the Unions or how "SLAVERY BAD". makes me fucking sick).

You know what the biggest problem facing public education in the States is? Teacher's Unions. Because anything that might help progress competitive teaching practices is denounced as being "unfair" to "the children". Even pouring money into the situation has little to no effect. Just lines the pockets of bad teachers that can not be fired for any reason (tenure is something I have serious issues with because of this). My experiences from Middle School on have been nothing short of horrid, ugly to the point where I have had zero drive to seek higher education, cost of such aside.

So I sit and watch as the "educated" continue to force any kind of stupid idea that "helps the children" or "saves the environment", even if it does neither or even if it actually hurts what they say they're helping. I watch people become more and more dependent upon the government at all levels to fix their woes. I meet far too many people of all ages that think the first thing that should be done whenever anything goes wrong is to "make a law". There's a word for that. Fascism.

The worst part about it is that I know just how pitifully prepared I am to even begin to stress how bad things are getting. I know that my lack of knowledge on many subjects just makes my overall points, right or wrong, sound hollow and unintelligent. It's frustrating and depressing.

Yeah, a lot of us are pretty stupid. Of my coworkers, I think I'm the only one that could quote any portion of the US Constitution. I was the only one that understood the Checks and Balances system to any degree. I had to very slowly explain who John Hancock and Paul Revere were to one of my younger coworkers, and what they did. And that was after he'd gone to visit Massachusetts and had seen monuments to both of them. And he mostly just laughed it off, had no importance to him at all.

I *know* not everyone is as bad as my coworkers. But I can easily see how people treat education, and that is just downright saddening.


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## Shouden (Sep 11, 2008)

wow. I think that article was stupider than it painted Americans to be. I love how lied about American schools not teaching the "science" of Evolution and that America was heaped in religious beliefs.

I mean, we Americans are the brightest bulbs in the fucking tree, but damn, dude, you don't have to be a fucking dick about.


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## Beastcub (Sep 11, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> No, Americans generally have their own problems to deal with and put those ahead of the country's problems.



agreed

also the public education system sucks especially the lower grades which are the most important as your learning abilities are most easily molded as a child, so if it does not happen young then learning becomes hard later (which is why learning your first language is easy, learning another after the age of 9 is way harder)

in the 5th grade:....1 teacher..38 kids...lots with ADD....1 on 1 time with the teacher was non existant, she did not even notice if a student was asleep (or notice i was drawing all the time). 
in grade school the kids were so bad in my classes that if the teacher could show up we might as well have been sent home because no one respected the subsitute and half the class ended up in the office and at least 3 with refferals or on-campus suspension.
it was still quite hecktic when the regular teacher was there. 
.... even a kid with lots of mental potential cannot thrive in such a learning environment.

 the only smart people are the ones whoes parents could afford a good private school. even a fairly dumb kid can majorly improve when set in a enriched learning environment with 1 on 1 help.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 11, 2008)

Public education isn't bad in itself, it's the application of the idea.


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## VGJustice (Sep 11, 2008)

I can agree with that, Mikael. Pardon me for being *very* biased on the subject, though.


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## Lobar (Sep 11, 2008)

Shouden said:


> wow. I think that article was stupider than it painted Americans to be. I love how lied about American schools not teaching the "science" of Evolution and that America was heaped in religious beliefs.
> 
> I mean, we Americans are the brightest bulbs in the fucking tree, but damn, dude, you don't have to be a fucking dick about.



What made you put science in scare-quotes there?  I have a feeling that you may be the strongest support of the OP's article yet.


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## pheonix (Sep 12, 2008)

Yes some Americans are stupid but there are more intelligent ones then the less intelligent, but the government I think makes some of the most retarded decision I've ever seen making them stupid. Not all Americans are stupid like this article claims them to be.


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## Azure (Sep 12, 2008)

Le sigh...it's Americans.  AMERICANS.  You can't spell the name of your own country?  I mean, didn't spell check give you big red no no lines?  You know what, they might be on to something...


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## pheonix (Sep 12, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Le sigh...it's Americans. AMERICANS. You can't spell the name of your own country? I mean, didn't spell check give you big red no no lines? You know what, they might be on to something...


 
Hey I just drove from South Carolina to Miami a 15 hour drive I've been up since 6 AM so i've been awake for almost 24 hours give me a break , oh and I just got this laptop and it has no spellcheck thought I'd let you know that.


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## Azure (Sep 12, 2008)

Your browser doesn't have spellcheck?  What do you use?  Also, South Carolina to Miami?  15 hours, how fast do you drive, 10 miles an hour?  That isn't any excuse to misspell the name of your country.  You've only heard and seen it for the entirety of your life.


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## pheonix (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm using internet explorer I don't know why it doesn't come up with spell check on my laptop, and I drove about 80 the whole way but theres something called food that I need, and gas that runs out, not to mention all the BBQ I've been eating caused a few restroom stops, and people make mistakes whan there exhasted and I probably spelled that wrong too but right now I don't care.


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## Charkonian (Sep 12, 2008)

Abandon IE.

And yes, we are. Isn't it blissful? <3


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## Bambi (Sep 12, 2008)

> That, and the German war machine would never match the technological refinement and output of the Soviet one, which had nearly half a continent at it's disposal.


 
The Germans were matching the Russians; infact one of their biggest technological innovations compared to the Soviets (who coordinated their attack strategies from 1941-1943 with Flags) was Radio's. Add that to the fact the Germans had a large and experience Officer Corps, where even if technology didn't matter, experience would and they had it.

Although, you take into consideration how exhausted the Wehrmacht had become, and you have results like these.

Oh, here's what I meant with that Poland bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lvov-Sandomierz_Offensive


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 12, 2008)

Bambi said:


> The Germans were matching the Russians; infact one of their biggest technological innovations compared to the Soviets (who coordinated their attack strategies from 1941-1943 with Flags) was Radio's. Add that to the fact the Germans had a large and experience Officer Corps, where even if technology didn't matter, experience would and they had it.
> 
> Although, you take into consideration how exhausted the Wehrmacht had become, and you have results like these.
> 
> ...



And don't forget German rockets.


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## Pwncakesfury (Sep 12, 2008)

Yes, America is stupid.


/thread


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