# Seeking Advice



## Aaros (Feb 6, 2011)

Hey,
I've been working on a commission for someone that's due to be finished this Tuesday and I got this email from them this morning:


> Would you feel comfortable if I show cased your artwork in a commercial product? (all paper work will follow and you will be named as the artist)



and I don't know ANYthing about how to deal with it - I'll certainly ask for more information, but can anyone give me any help or advice on what to do and what the smartest path to take in this situation is. So yeah, I'm not sure exactly how to respond.
Any advice? For example,
-in asking for more information, what specific things should I ask for?
-is it a good idea to say yes?
-what are the implications of agreeing? 
-is this a good thing or a bad thing?


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 6, 2011)

Generally, I'd say don't agree unless they're paying for commercial rights. In order to determine what you should be charging for the specific usage rights they want, some of the things you want to ask are what sort of product they're talking about, in what manner your work will be included and how many copies will be produced.


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## Zydala (Feb 6, 2011)

things to ask them:

- what the product will be
- what are the terms of compensation (is it a flat-fee? A percentage fee? or a cut of both?) <--- this is important! Ask them how much of the product they plan to make at what price, calculate how much they'll be making, and decide what slice of the pie you want then. 5-10% is average, though depending on how many they want to sell, what the price is on the item, etc it fluctuates
- what are the rights as far as the image they want to use goes? Do you still get to use it and display it personally? Will they make you take it down? Are the rights to the picture handed to them fully? (this is also an important question!)

The implications of agreeing change depending on the product, etc.

If you'd like, there's a really great livejournal community, artists_beware, that has a lot of artists that can help walk you through what the usual legal works if you're feeling lost. Make sure you do a thorough look-through of the company that wants your picture (and the person that contacted you) and if you go to that community, let them know the details.

Feel free to come back here, too. Hope this was useful (and at least a tad accurate, lol)


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## Grendel (Feb 6, 2011)

NO.

You'll be getting ripped off majorly. Right now they can have the picture, but you OWN all the copyrights, distribution rights, reproduction rights, etc. Those rihts to the art are worth FAR more than the art itself. Say a painting of a cloud sells for $300. That's just the physical picture. The rights could sell for thousands, ESPECIALLY if the image is to be used for profit making and commercial products. You're being scammed. Do not relent, you hold the copy rights and if they want the rights to use it for commercial purposes, reproduce it, redistribute it, or change it they must pay a hefty sum and perhaps a percentage of profits.


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## Taralack (Feb 6, 2011)

Don't say yes unless they agree to pay royalties for using your picture.


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## Aaros (Feb 6, 2011)

Zydala said:


> things to ask them:
> 
> - what the product will be
> - what are the terms of compensation (is it a flat-fee? A percentage fee? or a cut of both?) <--- this is important! Ask them how much of the product they plan to make at what price, calculate how much they'll be making, and decide what slice of the pie you want then. 5-10% is average, though depending on how many they want to sell, what the price is on the item, etc it fluctuates
> ...


 
Could you link me to the livejournal community? Thanks for the advice.



Grendel said:


> NO.
> 
> You'll be getting ripped off majorly. Right now they can have the picture, but you OWN all the copyrights, distribution rights, reproduction rights, etc. Those rihts to the art are worth FAR more than the art itself. Say a painting of a cloud sells for $300. That's just the physical picture. The rights could sell for thousands, ESPECIALLY if the image is to be used for profit making and commercial products. You're being scammed. Do not relent, you hold the copy rights and if they want the rights to use it for commercial purposes, reproduce it, redistribute it, or change it they must pay a hefty sum and perhaps a percentage of profits.


 
I would guess this is the case, but I still wonder: what exactly would I lose if that happened? Even if it's sold for a cheaper price, that's still better than _not_ selling at all.

And then there's the fact that I'm just an amateur artist, and clearly my art isn't up to the quality standards of any kind of professionally made art. So I can understand that the value of rights to professional art are valuable, but my art is probably far less valuable. 

Anyhow, I'll probably email the commissioner back later tonight asking for some details like that and perhaps offer to sell the rights separately, and in the meantime try to figure out what the best course is. I don't really want to lose this commission, since I don't get many, so I'm going to be very careful in how I deal with this.


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## Grendel (Feb 6, 2011)

Aaromus said:


> I would guess this is the case, but I still wonder: what exactly would I lose if that happened? Even if it's sold for a cheaper price, that's still better than _not_ selling at all.


They have already bought it. You have already put the time into this commission, they are not at a point to back out simply because you refuse to surrender your rights for free. You would lose nothing. Cheap price is bad when you could get the price you deserve at proper market value rather than being swindled.



Aaromus said:


> And then there's the fact that I'm just an amateur artist, and clearly my art isn't up to the quality standards of any kind of professionally made art. So I can understand that the value of rights to professional art are valuable, but my art is probably far less valuable.


Wrong. Your art has as much value as the buyer places on it. They liked your art enough to commission you, therefore it's good enough for them. There is no "better artists get to keep their copy rights and worse artists don't" rule. Every artist has the protections against being taken advantage of and having their art stolen and misused. Your copy right price may not be the same as a proffessional artist, sure, but you still deserve to be paid for the copy rights to your work. Under no circumstances should you hand over the rights to your work without proper monetary compensation.



Aaromus said:


> Anyhow, I'll probably email the commissioner back later tonight asking for some details like that and perhaps offer to sell the rights separately, and in the meantime try to figure out what the best course is. I don't really want to lose this commission, since I don't get many, so I'm going to be very careful in how I deal with this.


You won't lose this commission. They have NO RIGHT to drop it simply because you keep your basic rights as an artist. If they do then I smell a scammer and I'd drop their name in http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware so that no one else has to deal with their bull.


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## Aaros (Feb 6, 2011)

If I ask for some kind of deal where I sell the rights for a higher price or negotiate something that gives me compensation, what would a reasonable deal be? How would I tell what one is? I'm pretty sure I won't give the rights away freely, but I don't know what to ask for if I try to sell them.


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## Grendel (Feb 6, 2011)

Show us the art. Then it all depends on what they mean by "commercially used".


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## Aaros (Feb 6, 2011)

Grendel said:


> Show us the art. Then it all depends on what they mean by "commercially used".


 
It's not finished yet, I plan on completing it in the next couple days. It's a fully detailed commission with a detailed background and a human character as the subject, and when I'm done with it it'll probably be one of the most detailed things I've drawn.
But it's still in the early stages, the commissioner was slow in getting back to me about payment so it's running right up against the deadline.

I will tell him I'll sell the rights separately, and if he's still interested in guying them go from there.


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## Grendel (Feb 6, 2011)

Well can you show us your gallery? We need to SEE your work to help you determine a good amount that would be proper for selling the rights.


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## Aaros (Feb 6, 2011)

Grendel said:


> Well can you show us your gallery? We need to SEE your work to help you determine a good amount that would be proper for selling the rights.


 
Sure: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/aaromus/
see, clearly I'm not on the level where I feel comfortable charging much for my art.
But this seems like an interesting opportunity I'm not sure I feel comfortable giving up.


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## Grendel (Feb 6, 2011)

IMO you're one of the better furry artists. Somewhere in the middle of the lot. Do realize that the majority of furry art is a penis drawn in pencil and uploaded as a photo, blurry, and awful. 

I guess in this instance it depends on what they want to do with it. 
Examples: 
If they are printing T-shirts you should get a hundred bucks and a percentage of profits.
If they are selling a book and your picture is an illustration you should get a hundred bucks and a percentage of profits.
If they want to use it as a banner for a website where no profit is being made, maybe like $60-$200.
It just depends. Are they directly selling your work? Is your work being used to advertise their product? Are they directly making money off of your work? Do they simply want to redistribute your work with no profits gained?
If they want to redistribute it and post it to their own FA account, that should be free if you're willing to treat it as advertising. ;3


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## Aaros (Feb 6, 2011)

Alright. Thanks a lot for the advice. I'll see what the commissioner says and see what he thinks when the image is done, and go from there. Having not ever dealt with something like this before, I'm super glad to be able to get advice from here, thanks a lot.


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## Aaros (Feb 7, 2011)

Update: I told the commissioner that I would have to know all that information about the commission and that I would have to have some kind of compensation or sell the rights separately, and the commissioner said that he's still interested and will come up with a "deal" to offer me. He's going to get back to me on my questions then. I feel kinda nervous about all this now that I know for sure that I actually _will_ have to deal with coming up with some kind of rights and compensation agreement. >.<


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## Jw (Feb 7, 2011)

Aaromus said:


> Update: I told the commissioner that I would have to know all that information about the commission and that I would have to have some kind of compensation or sell the rights separately, and the commissioner said that he's still interested and will come up with a "deal" to offer me. He's going to get back to me on my questions then. I feel kinda nervous about all this now that I know for sure that I actually _will_ have to deal with coming up with some kind of rights and compensation agreement. >.<


 
Is the amount of money worthwhile the worry? If not, don't put yourself through this ordeal. If it is, then deal with this and use what you learned to update your commission information, rules and stipulations for future deals.


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## Zydala (Feb 7, 2011)

Aaromus said:


> Update: I told the commissioner that I would have to know all that information about the commission and that I would have to have some kind of compensation or sell the rights separately, and the commissioner said that he's still interested and will come up with a "deal" to offer me. He's going to get back to me on my questions then. I feel kinda nervous about all this now that I know for sure that I actually _will_ have to deal with coming up with some kind of rights and compensation agreement. >.<


 
Try not to worry too much - lots of artists have to jump into the subject of business some time in their careers! 

Wait for the offer and see if it's worth your time and effort. That's pretty much all you have to worry about right now :] come back for advice as it progresses, though - obviously we'd love to help you, haha!


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## Aaros (Feb 7, 2011)

I will. I want to try and go through with it if I can get a good deal, after all I'm interested in possibly studying art and trying to look for professional opportunities in it a few years down the road, so I might as well get some experience now.  Thanks for the advice, everyone!


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