# Support of the muslim community center at ground zero



## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

My opinion has changed
No Racial comments
Nothing offensive to other people (except for the Taliban)
OPINIONS VOICED don't hide your true feelings this is the internet not kindergarten


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## Vriska (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm not up to date on news. when did this happen?

(way off topic: DO YOU KNOW HYDROPUMP?)


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

TishPug said:


> I'm not up to date on news. when did this happen?
> 
> (way off topic: DO YOU KNOW HYDROPUMP?)


 
Ahem qutoed from MSNBC.com "Weighing his words carefully on a fiery political issue, President Barack Obama said Saturday that Muslims have the right to build a mosque near New York's ground zero, but he did not say whether he believes it is a good idea to do so."
Thats what it is


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## Commiecomrade (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm all about tolerance to other people, but sometimes it just goes too far. They can, but they shouldn't, as der Riese Mudkip said. Sometimes too much tolerance for one side can create contempt for the other. I think we shouldn't be bending our will to Muslims this time not because I'm anti-Muslim, but I'm pro-respect for ground zero victims. Sure, not the entire Muslim religion was responsible for the attacks, but the mere symbolism is enough.

Also, This is probably gonna get locked.


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Commiecomrade said:


> Also, This is probably gonna get locked.


 
Probably so


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## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Aug 28, 2010)

Freedom of religion, private property, it's not actually a mosque, it's not actually at Ground Zero, there's a strip club that's closer to the site than the proposed centre, etc, etc, etc.


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## Fenrari (Aug 28, 2010)

I really don't see why this is such an issue. It's a center for religious tolerance. 

People blow things out of proportion, just like a good percentage of Americans want to call Obama muslim because of his middle name...


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Easog said:


> Freedom of religion, private property, it's not actually a mosque, it's not actually at Ground Zero, there's a strip club that's closer to the site than the proposed centre, etc, etc, etc.


Like I said I dont hate muslims.

Also this same poll as seen by all of new york and new york city voters
From talkingpointsmemo.com Here the top-line answer is 27% support to 63% opposed. As we've seen before, opposition is lower in New York City itself, where 36% support it and 56% are opposed


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Fenrari said:


> I really don't see why this is such an issue. It's a center for religious tolerance.
> 
> People blow things out of proportion, just like a good percentage of Americans want to call Obama muslim because of his middle name...


 
If i knew it I wouldn't be judging it


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## Ratte (Aug 28, 2010)

Do I support it?  Yes.

I foresee much bullshit to be had in regards to it, however.


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## Fenrari (Aug 28, 2010)

Ratte said:


> Do I support it?  Yes.
> 
> I foresee much bullshit to be had in regards to it, however.


 
More than there already is? Getting rid of the hawkers selling "memorablia" at the site would be a much more tasteful in my opinion.


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## Lobar (Aug 28, 2010)

...and in Manhattan, where ground zero is, the majority actually supports it, though I don't have the exact numbers handy.  It's like the closer you actually get to the thing, the less of an issue it actually is to the people there!


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## Ratte (Aug 28, 2010)

Fenrari said:


> More than there already is? Getting rid of the hawkers selling "memorablia" at the site would be a much more tasteful in my opinion.


 
Imagine every one of my posts ending in a :V


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## Fenrari (Aug 28, 2010)

Lobar said:


> ...and in Manhattan, where ground zero is, the majority actually supports it, though I don't have the exact numbers handy.  It's like the closer you actually get to the thing, the less of an issue it actually is to the people there!


 
Well that's the case with most things. People start issues because THEY want there to be an issue. The less it actually concerns them the more they have to say about ti. 



Ratte said:


> Imagine every one of my posts ending in a :V



Yeah... that would have helped *facepalm*


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## Ratte (Aug 28, 2010)

Fenrari said:


> Yeah... that would have helped *facepalm*


 
I'm surprised I haven't heard my grandparents shitting their pants over this.  Seems like something they would do, given they're motherfucking addicted to Fox News and their own bastardized version of the Bible.  :V


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

This is a Moderate Islamic cultural center, the Imam running it is a Modernist, and condemns Al Qaeda and radical Islam. He has worked to bridge relations and promote peace and tolerance between America and the Middle East. The Conservative Right has smeared his name, while previously a lot of them thought what he was doing was great and praised him highly. He even worked with Condoleezza Rice. As of recently though they've thrown him under the bus and spewed nothing but lies.

Imam Rauf wants to build the mosque there as a slap in the face to Al Qaeda, NOT Americans. Newt Gingrich says that we can have a Mosque at Ground Zero when we can have a Synagogue at Mecca. This is a major logical fallacy, because America is supposed to be BETTER than that. Two wrongs don't make a right and the First Amendment GUARANTEES freedom of religion. To impede this mosque in anyway would be to let the terrorists win. They want us to fear and hate Islam, they don't want us to build bridges, they are against EVERYTHING this Imam is trying to do! This issue absolutely sickens me. What's next, camps for Muslims like what we did to the Japanese? This is discrimination against peaceful Muslim AMERICANS. Muslims died on 9/11 too. YES! BUILD IT NOW!


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## LLiz (Aug 28, 2010)

I voted to support it, but I can see why people would have a problem with it. 

Bin Laden and the Taliban are extremists and not representative of the Muslim community, so it would be totally unfair to penalise the whole Muslim community and it sets a precedent for other things too. For example; if is ok to ban building a Muslim cultural centre near ground zero, surely it'd be just as bad to build a Catholic church near a school? (or heaven forbid anyone to consider building a catholic school)

Oh dear... why doesn't the whole world just go Atheist?


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

LLiz said:


> I voted to support it, but I can see why people would have a problem with it.
> 
> Bin Laden and the Taliban are extremists and not representative of the Muslim community, so it would be totally unfair to penalise the whole Muslim community and it sets a precedent for other things too. For example; if is ok to ban building a Muslim cultural centre near ground zero, surely it'd be just as bad to build a Catholic church near a school? (or heaven forbid anyone to consider building a catholic school)
> 
> Oh dear... why doesn't the whole world just go Atheist?


 A. Yes Bin Ladin and the Taliban are now their own people a race called Assholes to the world.
    B. God is real Atheism isn't correct


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

I can understand people having an emotional reaction to it and even I felt a bit uneasy at first before I knew the details, but it's totally illogical.
When will people learn that the actions of a few do not represent the views of an entire group? Especially when there are what, a BILLION Muslims and what, a few thousand terrorists maybe?


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## Rainami (Aug 28, 2010)

Read this for a logical analysis of the controversy: http://www.kobrascorner.com/p/mosque-near-ground-zero.php

The only correction to needs to be made is that its in fact not a mosque. But the author didn't do any research he just wanted to tell people they were being stupid for decrying it.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Aug 28, 2010)

Let them build it. Even if it was a victory mosque I would still say it should be allowed.


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Rainami said:


> The only correction to needs to be made is that its in fact not a mosque. But the author didn't do any research he just wanted to tell people they were being stupid for decrying it.


 
Exactly it is a community center which after I figured out lowered my steadfastness against this project


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

Rainami said:


> Read this for a logical analysis of the controversy: http://www.kobrascorner.com/p/mosque-near-ground-zero.php
> 
> The only correction to needs to be made is that its in fact not a mosque. But the author didn't do any research he just wanted to tell people they were being stupid for decrying it.


 
Exactly, it's an Islamic community center, pretty much the equivalent of a YMCA. Yes it has a Mosque in it but it also has swimming pools, community classes, etc


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 28, 2010)

This has been waaaaaaay overblown in pretty much every medium of news, Glenn Beck not helping...In fact, not very many in the news are helping. 

They keep calling it a Mosque, even left-leaning channels and articles have called it a Mosque, when that's only a (possibly _small_) part of it's functionality.

The distance is what, almost 3 blocks I think I heard? You can't even see it from Ground Zero, nor Ground zero from it.

The extreme right wing has really media-bum-rushed this topic into giving it a huge social stigma that we're seeing. I honestly couldn't care less, and neither would pretty much anybody else lest Fox 'News' spun the story so hard.

I support it, because I'm an ironic rebel.


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

I voted no, cause I don't like it.

I'm an American. I'm allowed to not like it. ^^


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> I voted no, cause I don't like it.
> 
> I'm an American. I'm allowed to not like it. ^^


 
You're allowed to not like it, but they're also allowed to build it.
That's how the first amendment works.


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## Rainami (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> You're allowed to not like it, but they're also allowed to build it.
> That's how the first amendment works.


 And we're also allowed to not like him for it


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> I voted no, cause I don't like it.
> 
> I'm an American. I'm allowed to not like it. ^^


 
Bonus points for expressing freedom of speech god bless America.


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> You're allowed to not like it, but they're also allowed to build it.
> That's how the first amendment works.


 
Your right!

So I'm showing my lack of support for it because I can. 

Btw, the building they're trying to convert actually was damaged considerably during the attack. Parts of the plane damaged a few stories of the building. Doesn't that make it "ground zero?"


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> Btw, the building they're trying to convert actually was damaged considerably during the attack. Parts of the plane damaged a few stories of the building. Doesn't that make it "ground zero?"


 
Not really...
Also it used to be a Burlington Coat factory
Lol, hallowed ground (Jon Stewart has already made this joke like a million times)


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Not really...
> Also it used to be a Burlington Coat factory
> Lol, hallowed ground (Jon Stewart has already made this joke like a million times)


 
I'm just saying. The building was damaged as a direct result of the attack. That...kinda makes it ground zero. But that's debatable. Nobody can seem to agree about that.


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> I'm just saying. The building was damaged as a direct result of the attack. That...kinda makes it ground zero. But that's debatable. Nobody can seem to agree about that.


 
Why should it matter anyway?


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Why should it matter anyway?


 
...cause :V


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## Rainami (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Why should it matter anyway?


Ah, there's the rub. Why the hell does it matter to people? "Collateral ground zero" is taboo for a place promoting peace? What would they rather it be used for? An anti-aircraft weaponry storage facility?


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Not really...
> Also it used to be a Burlington Coat factory


 YES my wife cant blow all of our money there anymore on her business trips!


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

Rainami said:


> Ah, there's the rub. Why the hell does it matter to people? "Collateral ground zero" is taboo for a place promoting peace? What would they rather it be used for? An anti-aircraft weaponry storage facility?


 
It's the "peaceful" part people just can't get into their head. They think Muslim = terrorist and this is a "victory mosque"
I don't really know how to argue with these people :/


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

k joking aside, they have every right to build their dumb little church thing. Should they? No. 9/11 is still a tender topic to many people, and regardless of whether it's right or not, people feel resentment etc. toward the idea that such a thing is going to be built so close. Idc if they build it, but I don't think they should.

Edit: You'd be foolish not to at _least_ understand why people feel the way they do.


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## Rainami (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> It's the "peaceful" part people just can't get into their head. They think Muslim = terrorist and this is a "victory mosque"
> I don't really know how to argue with these people :/


 Just mention Jesus every sentence and use the phrase "traditional values" (or "family values" where applicable) whenever your audience starts to lose interest.


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## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> k joking aside, they have every right to build their dumb little church thing. Should they? No. 9/11 is still a tender topic to many people, and regardless of whether it's right or not, people feel resentment etc. toward the idea that such a thing is going to be built so close. Idc if they build it, but I don't think they should.


 Definitly to me due to the fact that my cousin was severely wounded by it


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> k joking aside, they have every right to build their dumb little church thing. Should they? No. 9/11 is still a tender topic to many people, and regardless of whether it's right or not, people feel resentment etc. toward the idea that such a thing is going to be built so close. Idc if they build it, but I don't think they should.


 
See, I know what you're saying, but this is a precedent. It shows what we as Americans really think about Islam as a whole. It reveals a lot about us, and if we don't build it, the terrorists will see that they have won. We need to overcome our distrust. In similar civil rights issues (not that Muslims don't have civil rights, but it's a close enough comparison) very unpopular steps had to be made in the name of progress. This mosque stands for something. It stands for religious tolerance, and that the American dream is still alive. That's why I think it's so very important that this be built, lest we move backwards...


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

Well the terrorists can "see" whatever they wanna see, that's irrelevant. I see your point (yes it's a good one) and I understand. I just feel differently. *shrugs*

*yawwwwnnnnnssss*

5:40 am. Bedtime 

Nites ^^


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## Rainami (Aug 28, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> See, I know what you're saying, but this is a precedent. It shows what we as Americans really think about Islam as a whole. It reveals a lot about us, and if we don't build it, the terrorists will see that they have won. We need to overcome our distrust. In similar civil rights issues (not that Muslims don't have civil rights, but it's a close enough comparison) very unpopular steps had to be made in the name of progress. This mosque stands for something. It stands for religious tolerance, and that the American dream is still alive. That's why I think it's so very important that this be built, lest we move backwards...


 That's a rather good point. One that I had not considered.

I'm waiting to hear if there are any rational arguments against the building of this community center that aren't antitheist arguments against all forms of religion. My prediction: there are none. Though the trolls will have a field day with this topic.


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## Lemoncholic (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm ashamed to admit I voted no on this poll. Not because I'm against it myself, I just think the shitstorm would be too great.

However after reading these posts (especially Greg's) I've realised it's actually a really good idea. I guess most people don't know enough about it.


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## Lobar (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> k joking aside, they have every right to build their dumb little church thing. Should they? No. 9/11 is still a tender topic to many people, and regardless of whether it's right or not, people feel resentment etc. toward the idea that such a thing is going to be built so close. Idc if they build it, but I don't think they should.


 
On that note, in light of the Muslim cabbie that got sliced up the other day, I think the white Christians of NYC shouldn't use cabs for a little while.  I mean, they still have every right to, but I don't think they should, for sensitivity's sake. :V



der Riese Mudkip said:


> God is real Atheism isn't correct


 
Oh we are just going to have all sorts of fun later on.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 28, 2010)

They have every right to build there, but in my honest opinion they are just adding insult to injury.


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## Fuzzy Alien (Aug 28, 2010)

Of course I do. Completely disregarding the fact that it isn't even a "mosque", they have just as much right to be there as any church or synagogue, of which there are numerous in NYC.


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## Smelge (Aug 28, 2010)

This whole argument is fucking retarded.

"WE DON'T WANT NO FILTHY MUSLIMS PREACHING THEIR HATEFUL TOLERANCE OF OTHER RELIGIONS AND ATTEMPTING TO INTEGRATE TO FORM A MULTI-ETHNIC SOCIETY!"

Sorry, so is this what you wanted then:


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## LLiz (Aug 28, 2010)

Smelge said:


> This whole argument is fucking retarded.
> 
> "WE DON'T WANT NO FILTHY MUSLIMS PREACHING THEIR HATEFUL TOLERANCE OF OTHER RELIGIONS AND ATTEMPTING TO INTEGRATE TO FORM A MULTI-ETHNIC SOCIETY!"
> 
> Sorry, so is this what you wanted then:


 
So what you're basically saying is that if you're a Muslim it is ok to visit Ellis Island?


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## Werewolfhero (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm for it. It's not like its ON ground zero, its 2-3 blocks away for starters. They're constitutionally within their legal rights to do so since the constitution grants everyone the protection to practice their religion without persecution, and the right to practice their religion on their own privately owned land.

 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

By telling them they can't build a mosque on land they purchase, You've just violated the first amendment in several different ways.

You're telling them that they aren't allowed to peaceably assemble for starters, you're denying them their freedom to establish their religion, on the land that they own, as well as prohibiting them from practicing their religion on the land that they own.

And if the ground zero area was really so sacred they wouldn't have granted permission to all the porn shops, strip clubs, and fast food restaurants that are within the area. And if they were to relent and move to some other location, it would grant precedent for officials, and protesters to place restrictions on either other Muslims or other minorities or faiths, like Buddhists, Jews, Wiccians, Jehovah Witnesses, Offshoots of Christians, Mormons, etc. from being allowed to establish their own temples, churches, etc. in certain areas.

Also while I won't say that everyone against it is like this but most its just more a case of NIMBY being disguised as speaking for Ground Zero victims and familes. With all those saying Oh not 2 blocks away, no no maybe 6, no no, not within 2000ft, no no... somewhere else,  Maybe on the other side of town, maybe outside the city, etc. None of those against it can even be consistent with how close or far away from the center it has to be. Its reasons like that, that the constitution includes the protections it does. 

If people relied on the sensitivities rather than legal rights, there'd still be slavery since the slave owners sensitivities would have to be honored. There wouldn't be freedom of religion since the the sensitivities of the major religion would be dominant. Women wouldn't have the rights they do because they'd have to take the sensitivities of the Men from that era who were against it into consideration. Being gay would be against the law or punishable because of the sensitivities of all those who believe its against god's will. The list goes on. 

So that's why the mosque should be allowed as long as its all done legally.

And for those who claim the Imam's ties are questionable because of that rich Saudi guy, well that same person is a majority stock holder in Faux News. X'D
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/saudi-royal-backs-imam-and-fox-news/





Smelge said:


> This whole argument is fucking retarded.
> 
> "WE DON'T WANT NO FILTHY MUSLIMS PREACHING THEIR HATEFUL TOLERANCE OF OTHER RELIGIONS AND ATTEMPTING TO INTEGRATE TO FORM A MULTI-ETHNIC SOCIETY!"
> 
> Sorry, so is this what you wanted then:


 
Unfortunately since more than half the country is anti-muslim according to some recent polls, that's still probably too close. X'D

To some, like Newt Gingrich (sp) even if they went and used the money to get a big boat instead to practice their religion in international waters, it'd still be too close.


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## TreacleFox (Aug 28, 2010)

I think its fine, im not American though. =/
And its not really on the site, its close though.


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## Attaman (Aug 28, 2010)

It's a community center several blocks away.  All the excuses are pretty much terrible:

"It's sacred ground!"  One, why?  Two, apparently not sacred enough that you can't have strip-clubs closer to the thing.

"It was done by Muslims!"  Oh, great, than you'll have no trouble limiting the number of churches in places like Germany, Ireland, almost any federal building...

"We lost people in that attack!"  Here:  "Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him,"  

And so on, and so on.


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## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Aug 28, 2010)

Right-wing media outraged, confused by Associated Press's journalistic integrity.


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## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

Voted yes.

1. They are within their rights to build said community center NEAR (not ON, as some would have you believe) "Ground Zero".
2. The incredible amount of butthurt being demonstrated by the Christian-idiot demographic is glorious.  There will be a shitstorm, and no doubt the community center will be vandalized and such after it's built (if they do build it), but to gall those fucking bibblefreaks and remind them that they do NOT run/own this country... worth it.  I'm just worried about the backlash from Muslims abroad if the community center and/or the people therein do indeed come to harm.


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 28, 2010)

I voted yes.

Not from a religious standpoint, but from a capitalistic standpoint: They pay for the land, either through complete purchase of the land or through leasing it, then they should be able to do whatever the fuck they want to with it. Thus was America until WWII.


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## Oovie (Aug 28, 2010)

Fenrari said:


> People blow things out of proportion, just like a good percentage of Americans want to call Obama muslim because of his middle name...


 I believe him when he says he is a Christian, but I don't blame others for thinking he is a Muslim either. I think he gives them a lot of fuel to run off of for thinking he's a Muslim, and and this'll never be put down untill he pulls out the birth certificates and everything.


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## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

Oovie said:


> I believe him when he says he is a Christian, but I don't blame others for thinking he is a Muslim either. I think he gives them a lot of fuel to run off of for thinking he's a Muslim, and and this'll never be put down untill he pulls out the birth certificates and everything.


 
HE DID PRODUCE BIRTH CERTIFICATES ALREADY.  FUCK.

And what the FUCK would it matter whether the man was Christian, Muslim, Atheist/Agnostic or fucking Discordian?

^5 to Attamanpower


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## Oovie (Aug 28, 2010)

Tycho said:


> HE DID PRODUCE BIRTH CERTIFICATES ALREADY.  FUCK.


CONSPIRACY THEORISTS SAY, "NO GOOD!" FUUUUUUU


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## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

Oovie said:


> CONSPIRACY THEORISTS SAY, "NO GOOD!" FUUUUUUU


 
these people are so desperate that I could "forge" an *insert darkieAfrican country with terrerist Muzlems in it* birth certificate using crayons and construction paper saying BARROCK *HUSSEIN* O-BOMB-A IS MUZLEM AND IS A TERRERIST SIGNED PRESIDENT OF AFRICA and they would run with it.


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## Oovie (Aug 28, 2010)

Tycho said:


> And what the FUCK would it matter whether the man was Christian, Muslim, Atheist/Agnostic or fucking Discordian?


 Sorry that I overlooked this, but I don't know any politician freely admitting to being Muslim, Atheist, etc. Seems it'd kill your numbers in America.


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## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

Oovie said:


> Sorry that I overlooked this, but I don't know any politician freely admitting to being Muslim, Atheist, etc. Seems it'd kill your numbers in America.


 
It SHOULDN'T.  That's the point (which is completely lost on the Judeo-Christian jerkoffs).


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 28, 2010)

I don't support it, as I don't support any religious undertaking. I'm particularly opposed to Islam at the moment after watching The Third Jihad earlier today. Religion is like a cancer, only more horrible and insidious.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 28, 2010)

Neither, history will just repeat itself.
I knew this was coming for years, see kiddies this is why learning from history is important.
Either A)we're going to have another red scare except fearing muslims or B)this will blow over and yet again no one will learn anything from this yet again.


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## Oovie (Aug 28, 2010)

Tycho said:


> It SHOULDN'T.  That's the point (which is completely lost on the Judeo-Christian jerkoffs).


 Of course it _SHOULDN'T_, but I suppose we're still waiting on the person who will change that in people! I wouldn't be surprised some just claim to be Christian so they don't get backlashed.


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## Waffles (Aug 28, 2010)

Support because too many people are goddamn ignorant of other religions/etc >_>


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## Gavrill (Aug 28, 2010)

I support it because my family doesn't :V


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## CannonFodder (Aug 28, 2010)

Oovie said:


> I wouldn't be surprised some just claim to be Christian so they don't get backlashed.


 You hit the nail on the head.


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## Oovie (Aug 28, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> You hit the nail on the head.


 Glad it wasn't my thumb.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 28, 2010)

> Support because too many people are goddamn ignorant of other religions/etc >_>



That might be so, but I don't think you'd need a Sci-Fi centre because too many people are ignorant about series other than Star Trek.


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## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> That might be so, but I don't think you'd need a Sci-Fi centre because too many people are ignorant about series other than Star Trek.


 
You're comparing a religion to a TV series?  Really?


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 28, 2010)

Tycho said:
			
		

> You're comparing a religion to a TV series?  Really?



Absolutely.


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## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Absolutely.


 
Thank you for reminding me to do something I had been meaning to do for a while.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 28, 2010)

Tycho said:
			
		

> Thank you for reminding me to do something I had been meaning to do for a while.



Fine, you've got my attention. What is that?


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## CannonFodder (Aug 28, 2010)

*edit*
Don't know how to word that right.


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## CynicalCirno (Aug 28, 2010)

The building of a mosque in ground zero? Nope. Ground Zero should not be a relligious center. As far as everybody in the world knows, the western world begins to block Islam. Don't come on me and say "You just say that because you are a zionist pro Israeli" because it's not true. All over europe people compare mosques to missiles, because of their towers' shape.
I am against building relligious centers - if somebody wants to pray, they can do it alone. Though, Islam does not permit skipping the 5 time daily praying, and people must do it regardless if they actually want it or not.

I don't support building any Jewish relligious centers there, neither. 

It will only lead to more harshness of relligion in the american society and eventually to terrorism. Remember, that the harshness of Islam calls America "The big devil".

Islam wants to spread.


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## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

Lobar said:


> On that note, in light of the Muslim cabbie that got sliced up the other day, I think the white Christians of NYC shouldn't use cabs for a little while.  I mean, they still have every right to, but I don't think they should, for sensitivity's sake. :V


 
Are you comparing the murder of a single person to the greatest disaster in US history?


----------



## Endless Humiliation (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> Are you comparing the murder of a single person to the greatest disaster in US history?


 
are you asking a stupid question


----------



## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

Senzuri Champion said:


> are you asking a stupid question


 
You're stupid.


----------



## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Smelge said:


> This whole argument is fucking retarded.
> 
> "WE DON'T WANT NO FILTHY MUSLIMS PREACHING THEIR HATEFUL TOLERANCE OF OTHER RELIGIONS AND ATTEMPTING TO INTEGRATE TO FORM A MULTI-ETHNIC SOCIETY!"


Ok this comment really just wasn't necessary under ANY circumstances


----------



## Gavrill (Aug 28, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> Ok this comment really just wasn't necessary under ANY circumstances


 
You haven't been here long, have you


----------



## Smelge (Aug 28, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> Ok this comment really just wasn't necessary under ANY circumstances


 
Oh my god, I'm sorry. Did I get a piece of sense in your thread?

It's a fucking community centre. It isn't on or in Ground Zero. It's not a terrorist training camp.

What it is, is a bunch of fucktarded politicians and moronic bigots using it for their own political gains. Let's ignore that the media has loved the guy setting it up for years for what he's been doing, but as soon as it looks like it can be warped to further their own schemes, they turn around and smear shit on him. This is how fucking stupid America is. You claim to be one of the most civilised countries on Earth, yet you still have "news" channels like Fox devoted to a political agenda instead of, you know, reporting the fucking news.

"OH NO THE PRESIDENT IS NOT THE PARTY WE SUPPORT AND HE'S BLACK, LET'S PORTRAY HIM AS A MUSLIM BECAUSE HALF THE COUNTRY THINK EVERYTHING THAT DRIBBLES OUT OF OUR FOETID MOUTHS IS THE GOD-GIVEN TRUTH"

And amidst this all, overweight tossers moan about how Islam is terrible, then as soon as someone tries to build a centre dedicated to Islamics in the community, you all have a shitfit.

Before you start moaning about people pointing out how bloody moronic your entire nation is, why don't you actually look at the shit you lot of flinging everywhere?


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 28, 2010)

CynicalCirno said:


> The building of a mosque in ground zero? Nope. Ground Zero should not be a relligious center.



How many times does it have to be said "IT'S NOT *AT *FRICKIN' GROUND ZERO"?

Get your facts right.


----------



## VoidBat (Aug 28, 2010)

I'd support it on the grounds that it's built without government, financial/cultural aid.

It's a recurring fact, at least where I'm from that most cultural centres, not just the ones dedicated to Islam have either bad or non-existent accountancy records. Throwing financial aid to such centers would be like trying to collect water with a sieve, worthless more or less.
If built with financial/cultural aid, I'd suggest the money gets earmarked since it would be a great act of stupidity to give support to something when you don't know how and where such money are placed/spent. Call it reassurance. At last, a check through the registers should be done to see if said center has had any problems with accounting violations.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 28, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> Ok this comment really just wasn't necessary under ANY circumstances


 
This thread wasn't necessary either. I am fairly certain we have one on this subject in R+R already.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 28, 2010)

Pianowolfy said:


> Are you comparing the murder of a single person to the greatest disaster in US history?


 
It's also been nine years since 9/11, so given the difference in scale, they could probably just not take taxis for a couple days. :V :V :V :V :V :V :V :V :V :V


----------



## teh silver-wolf (Aug 28, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Oh my god, I'm sorry. Did I get a piece of sense in your thread?
> 
> It's a fucking community centre. It isn't on or in Ground Zero. It's not a terrorist training camp.
> 
> ...


 I said I did'nt want *ANY*racial comments *NO* fucking exceptions


----------



## Lobar (Aug 28, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> I said I did'nt want *ANY*racial comments *NO* fucking exceptions


 
well aren't you special


----------



## Tycho (Aug 28, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> I said I did'nt want *ANY*racial comments *NO* fucking exceptions


 


der Riese Mudkip said:


> "YOU RUINED MY THREAD FOREVER HOW COULD YOU I HATE YOU"



NOW LOOK AT WHAT YOU'VE DONE! You've made him mad!


----------



## Ffzzynxnynxxyninx (Aug 28, 2010)

hahahahaha


----------



## Shark_the_raptor (Aug 28, 2010)

At first I thought they were gonna build one on Ground Zero.  Then I learned that it was gonna be a mile or two from it.  ._.

So yeah, I don't care what they build.

(I still want that god damn 1,776 foot tower damn it.  >C )


----------



## Darkwing (Aug 28, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> I said I did'nt want *ANY*racial comments *NO* fucking exceptions


 
Wanna tip? 

You see that little black triangle button on the lower left corner of each post with the exclamation point? That's the "Report Post" button. 

Go fucking nuts.


----------



## Werewolfhero (Aug 29, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Oh my god, I'm sorry. Did I get a piece of sense in your thread?
> 
> It's a fucking community centre. It isn't on or in Ground Zero. It's not a terrorist training camp.
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately with Right wing loonies like Faux News, Limbaugh, Beck, Palin, Bachman, and Angle out there to rile up the fringiest of the fringe  I don't think it really matters what they build in place of the former burlington coat factory, could be an muslim owned movie theater or mcdonalds franchise store and they'd still claim it was some terror camp.



Tycho said:


> HE DID PRODUCE BIRTH CERTIFICATES ALREADY.  FUCK.
> 
> And what the FUCK would it matter whether the man was Christian, Muslim, Atheist/Agnostic or fucking Discordian?
> 
> ^5 to Attamanpower



I seriously doubt there's anything that he could do to put the whole birther conspiracy to rest. In fact i think if scientists were to develope a time machine tomorrow, load up all the birthers, go back in time to the Hawaiian hospital to the day and time of his birth, interview both his parents, grandparents, doctors, etc and using GPS technology verify they were in Hawaii, and all watch as his birth certificate was typed out by hand with an old fashioned type writer (since that was before the time of modern day computers) The birthers would still, despite watching Obama being born on US soil,  would still despite all odds, facts, and rationality, would still believe he's some Kenyan, Canadian, African, Brittish, Austrailian, South American, Mexican, Muslim, Marxist, Hitler Reincarnation, Socialist, Facist, Extra Terrestrial from outer space, Antichristian, Lizardman, non-american who "wasn't born here in the US"


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 29, 2010)

Where's the "Other" option?

Voted yes because I really don't care.  Speaking as someone living within a close proximity of New York City where I could actually see the smoke coming up from the Twin Towers 4+ hours after they collapsed, and having family members who very well could have died during the attacks, I don't care that this mosque/community center is being built.

Here's the facts of the matter:

A)  It's not actually on Ground Zero.  A Burlington Coat Factory is not hallowed ground.

B) Freedom of Religion.  The government doesn't have a right to deny religious buildings to be built wherever.

C) The lease holder of the building has a right to sell to whoever he wants.

D) Who gives a shit if this is a "victory mosque?"  How about we stick it to the radical jihadists by BUILDING A GODDAMN NEW BUILDING WHERE THE TOWERS WERE FOR CHIRST SAKE!?

E) We shouldn't give a shit about what the international community thinks about what we do within our own boarders.  Every pundit talks about what Muslims around the world will think about both sides of the argument, and frankly, what they think shouldn't hold any influence on what we as Americans decide to do with our own real estate.

Prove me wrong on these five points.


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

I honestly don't give 2 shits where they build it but its not a good idea in my book.

If media had not blown it up then no one really would have cared but the minute fox got it it became a dieing cause.


----------



## Waffles (Aug 29, 2010)

Velystord said:


> I honestly don't give 2 shits where they build it but its not a good idea in my book.
> 
> If media had not blown it up then no one really would have cared but the minute fox got it it became a dieing cause.


 Elaborate?
Also, completely agree with Smedge although in a more neutral way. There will ALWAYS be ignorant people, and they will exist until the ned of time; we just have to suck it up and try to make most of the population understand, I guess. Those anti-mosque people will most likely lose, and the mosque will still be built.


----------



## Airborne_Piggy (Aug 29, 2010)

Muslims died in 9/11 too, everyone was hurt. People should quit bawwing over it.

Although, due to some people seeing it as offensive, I'm not sure. I support the idea of building a mosque, but am also concerned of potential terrorism towards the mosque.


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

Waffles said:


> Elaborate?
> Also, completely agree with Smedge although in a more neutral way. There will ALWAYS be ignorant people, and they will exist until the ned of time; we just have to suck it up and try to make most of the population understand, I guess. Those anti-mosque people will most likely lose, and the mosque will still be built.


 
Its a bad idea at this point because it was blown out of per portion otherwise it would have been just some local news or regional news that blew over in a week but someone called it a Mosque and not a center that is also a mosque and it would have never got steam and this thread wouldn't be here


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

Airborne_Piggy said:


> Muslims died in 9/11 too, everyone was hurt. People should quit bawwing over it.
> 
> Although, due to some people seeing it as offensive, I'm not sure. I support the idea of building a mosque, *but am also concerned of potential terrorism towards the mosque.*


 
I am too, but wouldn't that be the ultimate irony?


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> I said I did'nt want *ANY*racial comments *NO* fucking exceptions



Rage much? This is an internet forum, what did you really expect?



Airborne_Piggy said:


> Muslims died in 9/11 too, everyone was hurt. People should quit bawwing over it.
> 
> Although, due to some people seeing it as offensive, I'm not sure. I support the idea of building a mosque, but am also concerned of potential terrorism towards the mosque.


 


greg-the-fox said:


> I am too, but wouldn't that be the ultimate irony?



It ISN"T a mosque! why the fuck are so many people calling it a mosque when it isn't?!?!


I voted no, but I wish I could change that to yes. I assumed it was a mosque at first but after reading through this thread have found out it isn't a mosque and not even on ground Zero. So now I fail to see what all the fuss is about.

I find it stupid that people hate a whole group of people just because of what a select few assholes did from said group of people. Just because some people did bad from a group of people does not mean they are ALL bad.

I don't hate muslims, I just have little trust in them.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> It ISN"T a mosque! why the fuck are so many people calling it a mosque when it isn't?!?!


Well there *is* a mosque on one of the floors, it's just that the whole building is more than that

But that's not my point. If someone ends up attacking this building because they think it's housing "TERRORIST MUSLIMS", then the fact that was built by moderate muslims who renounce terrorism is the definition of Irony. The attackers would be the terrorists.


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

The reason the community center is called a Mosque is because that's what it was called in the news and the people who watch Fox and think they are seeing actual news are to dumb to research the fact.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

Velystord said:


> The reason the community center is called a Mosque is because that's what it was called in the news and the people who watch Fox and think they are seeing actual news are to dumb to research the fact.


 
Well that and people don't really know anything about Islam, myself included
Which is why I saw this at Barnes & Noble and I want to read it http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-One-W...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283075349&sr=8-1

Even though I'm an athiest, this controversy helped me realize that it's important to study religion, and I plan to.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

I don't think it would matter where it was built, it would still likely get attacked. Just like the poor NY cabbie.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I don't think it would matter where it was built, it would still likely get attacked. Just like the poor NY cabbie.


 
It's a risk I think should be taken, in the sake of progress. Just like Obama being president is a huge risk
Though Obama has the secret service, this place had better get some damn good security, bulletproof glass, etc...


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Well that and people don't really know anything about Islam, myself included
> Which is why I saw this at Barnes & Noble and I want to read it http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-One-W...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283075349&sr=8-1
> 
> Even though I'm an athiest, this controversy helped me realize that it's important to study religion, and I plan to.


 This brings up what I stated earlier to the tune of Islam is a different group of people.


----------



## Telnac (Aug 29, 2010)

I support their right to build it.  That said, radical imam, breaking ground 10 year to the day after 9/11... the whole thing's designed to be slap in the face.  So no, I don't think building it is a good idea.

Really, though, this is a non-issue for me.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm indifferent. If WBC is supposedly allowed to protest at soldier's funerals and saying "Thank God for 9/11" then Muslims can build a god damn community center.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 29, 2010)

Telnac said:


> I support their right to build it.  That said, radical imam, breaking ground 10 year to the day after 9/11... the whole thing's designed to be slap in the face.



And where did you get the idea the imam was "radical"? From what I've read he's a pretty moderate guy, no worse than a lot of Christian church leaders.

Unless the definition of a "radical Muslim" = "a Muslim who criticises America in any way, no matter how small."



AleutheWolf said:


> I'm indifferent. *If WBC is supposedly allowed to protest at soldier's funerals and saying "Thank God for 9/11"* then Muslims can build a god damn community center.


 
Good point.


----------



## Smelge (Aug 29, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> I said I did'nt want *ANY*racial comments *NO* fucking exceptions


 
Tough.

This whole issue is fucktarded. If you lot had any collective brains, people wouldn't need to be asking this. You all scream about your Constitutional Rights when you want to buy AK-45's to "protect your family", but the second someone says "I'm a Muslim" everyone freaks the fuck out and accuses them of being terrorists.

They are people, they just have a different holy book to you, they are not monsters or demons, they are JUST PEOPLE. Christians have Westboro Baptist Church and countless other mongoloids screaming hate and damnation, but that's totally ok because it's your religion. Islam has it's own radical factions that do shit too. Holy fuck, could it possibly be that these are just normal people that are most likely not connected to terrorism at all, except by the default wrong religion?

So yes, this has to get racist. Racial comments have to happen because the issue is about The Land of the Free being a bunch of piss-stained bigots.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 29, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Tough.
> 
> This whole issue is fucktarded. If you lot had any collective brains, people wouldn't need to be asking this. You all scream about your Constitutional Rights when you want to buy AK-45's to "protect your family", but the second someone says "I'm a Muslim" everyone freaks the fuck out and accuses them of being terrorists.



In the words of an Indian friend of mine: "Only in America can a van full of Mexican nationals drive by, with a 3 year old pointing at a finger at me, calling me "Un Terrorista"


----------



## Werewolfhero (Aug 29, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> And where did you get the idea the imam was "radical"? From what I've read he's a pretty moderate guy, no worse than a lot of Christian church leaders.
> 
> Unless the definition of a "radical Muslim" = "a Muslim who criticises America in any way, no matter how small."
> 
> ...


 
Yeah the guy's even been interviewed on Faux News on multiple occasions, with Glen Beck, O'Riley and alot of the others, And all throughout the Bush admin he was praised for being all moderate and doing a needed service and all.

The difference now is that he's helping the Obama Admin (To the right wing, that's almost grounds for treason these days), doing the same job as before under Bush. Also its an election year, so the Republicans need minorities to demonize in order to rally their base, especially the fringy tea partiers by pointing out all the scarey non-white, non-christian people who are "taking america away" from them.


----------



## Smelge (Aug 29, 2010)

Werewolfhero said:


> Yeah the guy's even been interviewed on Faux News on multiple occasions, with Glen Beck, O'Riley and alot of the others, And all throughout the Bush admin he was praised for being all moderate and doing a needed service and all.
> 
> The difference now is that he's helping the Obama Admin (To the right wing, that's almost grounds for treason these days), doing the same job as before under Bush. Also its an election year, so the Republicans need minorities to demonize in order to rally their base, especially the fringy tea partiers by pointing out all the scarey non-white, non-christian people who are "taking america away" from them.


 
This is pretty much the reason why America shouldn't be allowed Politics.


----------



## Attaman (Aug 29, 2010)

Telnac said:


> breaking ground 10 year to the day after 9/11...


Surprised no-one touched on this yet.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Surprised no-one touched on this yet.


 
Well, if they picked the date deliberately to be incendiary, the best thing to do would be to call their bluff and let them do so.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 29, 2010)

Telnac said:


> I support their right to build it.  That said, radical imam, breaking ground 10 year to the day after 9/11... the whole thing's designed to be slap in the face.  So no, I don't think building it is a good idea.


 
Uh, neither of those are true.  That's just Fox News rattling your chain, again.


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

radical imam is a pretty cool dude and us friendly talkin' bout liberal islam and a middle eastern community
yeah! support my right to subjugate the middle eastern savage mr imam rauf
i want to mouth kiss him


----------



## Random_Observer (Aug 29, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Córdoba

It is a Victory Mosque, because in the eyes of those tenths of thousands, hundred of thousands Muslims that celebrated the 9/11 attacks, within the mind of those millions that rejoyced of 9/11, every new mosque it's a symbol of their advance in the world. It's a statement. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20100820/cm_uc_crsesx/op_3915095

http://www.aish.com/ci/s/100866334.html

You people are sheep.


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

i muslim proclaim victory over murdering 62 of my own people who shared a neighborhood with me and probably went to services with m


----------



## Aleu (Aug 29, 2010)

Random_Observer said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Córdoba
> 
> It is a Victory Mosque, because in the eyes of those tenths of thousands, hundred of thousands Muslims that celebrated the 9/11 attacks, within the mind of those millions that rejoyced of 9/11, every new mosque it's a symbol of their advance in the world. It's a statement.
> 
> ...


 It's a community center.

You're an idiot.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 29, 2010)

Random_Observer's been demonstrating his stupidity for a while now.


----------



## Random_Observer (Aug 29, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> It's a community center.
> 
> You're an idiot.


 
http://www.frumforum.com/is-the-911-mosque-a-publicity-stunt


----------



## Lobar (Aug 29, 2010)

Aww, he's just like a little Roose Hurro with his links.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 29, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Aww, he's just like a little Roose Hurro with his links.


 at least Roose's links were interesting and were somewhat relevant.

These just make me facepalm. Yahoo news? Seriously?


----------



## jcfynx (Aug 29, 2010)

Commiecomrade said:


> I'm all about tolerance to other people





			
				Commiecomrade said:
			
		

> I think we shouldn't be bending our will to Muslims this time.


 
This gives one the impression that persons reading this post are "us," and Muslims are a "them." One could make the argument that Muslims are as much citizens of this country as any other person. Certainly, we don't limit the placement of Protestant churches because the radical Westboro Baptist Church protests American soldier funerals.


----------



## 3picFox (Aug 29, 2010)

Nothing against muslims, but having a mosque built close to ground zero is a bad idea, as people obviously would not like it and it would cause a lot of controversy.

It seems like they are trying to be mega IRL trolls by doing this...



this is a bit off topic, but has anyone ever asked a muslim that is not from America about how they feel about the 9/11 attacks?
It might be interesting to know what the thoughts are from someone that is not related to america or the taliban, but is muslim.


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

3picFox said:


> Nothing against muslims, but having a mosque built close to ground zero is a bad idea, as people obviously would not like it and it would cause a lot of controversy.
> 
> It seems like they are trying to be mega IRL trolls by doing this...


 
that only seems that way because youre woefully misinformed let me informatate you
1. the mosque isnt on ground zero, its a couple of blocks away (and manhattan is only 2 miles)
2. the muslims doing this arent affiliated with the crazy ummad that goes all takfir on you, if ahmads support it its as liberal as nyc


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

Telnac said:


> I support their right to build it.  That said, radical imam, breaking ground 10 year to the day after 9/11... the whole thing's designed to be slap in the face.  So no, I don't think building it is a good idea.
> 
> Really, though, this is a non-issue for me.


 
*MEGAFACEPALM*
I see FOX News has brainwashed yet another


----------



## Catilda Lily (Aug 29, 2010)

I heard it was going to be a few blocks away and it would have a bunch of other stuff in it.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> *MEGAFACEPALM*
> I see FOX News has brainwashed yet another


 
I actually agree with Talnec. I don't have a problem with it being built. But I do feel they are adding insult to injury by choosing to build it close to ground zero.

I mean they KNOW what happened there, they know who's people it was who did it and yet they choose to build it so close to it? why? out of all the places in NYC why so close to ground zero?

Do you not find that a little odd?


----------



## Attaman (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I mean they KNOW what happened there, they know who's people it was who did it and yet they choose to build it so close to it? why? out of all the places in NYC why so close to ground zero?


  It's in a section of town called "Little Syria", if I'm not mistaken.  It's like bitching that a Roman Catholic Church was built near a federal building in Little Italy.


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I mean they KNOW what happened there, they know who's people it was who did it and yet they choose to build it so close to it? why? out of all the places in NYC why so close to ground zero?



http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&s...York, NY 10001-1303&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
probably because there are muslims there too


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I actually agree with Talnec. I don't have a problem with it being built. But I do feel they are adding insult to injury by choosing to build it close to ground zero.
> 
> I mean they KNOW what happened there, they know who's people it was who did it and yet they choose to build it so close to it? why? out of all the places in NYC why so close to ground zero?
> 
> Do you not find that a little odd?



No because do you know what? Muslims LIVE there, that's why they're building it. They ran out of room in their existing Mosque 2 blocks away, and have been using this empty building to pray in for quite some time actually...

And here is what Telnac said that I found hilariously incorrect



Telnac said:


> *radical imam*


Wrong.
[video=youtube;KWceHzEZT0g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWceHzEZT0g[/video]


Telnac said:


> *breaking ground 10 year to the day after 9/11...*


That is not true and just a stupid rumor perpetuated to get people angry.


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

That's what I'm thinking about. Not that its odd but I really think out of all of NYC why do they have to choose a few blocks away from ground zero especially when we are at war with the religion (for some unknown reason considering its been changed several times over the years). It just doesnt seem like a smart move, its not like there's not another vacant building in NYC.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 29, 2010)

Velystord said:


> That's what I'm thinking about. Not that its odd but I really think out of all of NYC why do they have to choose a few blocks away from ground zero especially when we are at war with the religion (for some unknown reason considering its been changed several times over the years). It just doesnt seem like a smart move, its not like there's not another vacant building in NYC.


 We're not at war with the religion.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> No because do you know what? Muslims LIVE there, that's why they're building it. They ran out of room in their existing Mosque 2 blocks away, and have been using this empty building to pray in for quite some time actually...
> 
> And here is what Telnac said that I found hilariously incorrect
> 
> ...



They ran out of room? How many muslims live in NYC? enough to populate a small country?


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> They ran out of room? How many muslims live in NYC? enough to populate a small country?


 
Have you ever BEEN to new york?


----------



## Random_Observer (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I actually agree with Talnec. I don't have a problem with it being built. But I do feel they are adding insult to injury by choosing to build it close to ground zero.
> 
> I mean they KNOW what happened there, they know who's people it was who did it and yet they choose to build it so close to it? why? out of all the places in NYC why so close to ground zero?
> 
> Do you not find that a little odd?



You see, they know the connotations, and they know you know. This is a symbol to the rest of the Islamic world. Morons don't even know what they are talking about when they say tolerance and acceptance.

Actually, I find if funny that I see so many threads on here talking about Christianity and how evil it is and even seeing some forum members say they hate Christians and would like to see every one of them dead. Yet when it comes to the most violent religion in history, everyone suddenly has to be tolerant and accepting and hush hush.

Sheeeeep.


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> They ran out of room? How many muslims live in NYC? enough to populate a small country?


 
a lot
new york city is really dense :3


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

We arn't at war with the country. And yes we are supposed to be at war with the people who attacked that share a common set of beliefs. Not that we are against the Muslim community in general just that sect.

Yes NYC is dense but there's got to be more than one vacant floor within a 2 mile radius of the proposed site.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 29, 2010)

Random_Observer said:


> You see, they know the connotations, and they know you know. This is a symbol to the rest of the Islamic world. Morons don't even know what they are talking about when they say tolerance and acceptance.
> 
> Actually, I find if funny that I see so many threads on here talking about Christianity and how evil it is and even seeing some forum members say they hate Christians and would like to see every one of them dead. Yet when it comes to the most violent religion in history, everyone suddenly has to be tolerant and accepting and hush hush.
> 
> Sheeeeep.


Christianity has it's own share of violence bro. Stop posting. God dammit.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Have you ever BEEN to new york?



No, but I do know cities are always dense. But it just sounds like NYC is flooded with turbans. It reminds me of Peckham in london. I watched a video on YT that someone made walking down a street in Peckham, london and throughout ten minutes of video I could count the number of white people on one hand. All were black and immigrants. 





Shartblaster said:


> a lot
> new york city is really dense you stupid pile of shit :3



Less of the insults, there was no reason for this.



Velystord said:


> We arn't at war with the country. And yes we are supposed to be at war with the people who attacked that share a common set of beliefs. Not that we are against the Muslim community in general just that sect.
> 
> Yes NYC is dense but there's got to be more than one vacant floor within a 2 mile radius of the proposed site.



Umm we are NOT at war with the religion. We are at war with Iraq, which is a fucking country last time I checked a map.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> No, but I do know cities are always dense. But it just sounds like NYC is flooded with turbans.


 
Sikhs are the main turban wearers actually.


----------



## Random_Observer (Aug 29, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> Christianity has it's own share of violence bro.


 
Islam has not experienced a single century of peace as a secondary religion in a country.



> Stop posting. God dammit.



"let's ignore the concept of freedom of speech whenever *I* say!"


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> Muslims don't wear turbans lol, those are Sikhs you idiot.



It was a joke. Which obviously zoomed over your head.

Yet I'm the idiot.

A bad joke, but then it is 3:30am.


----------



## Velystord (Aug 29, 2010)

Last time i checked the supposed insurgents lived in the country but did not represent the country. Other wise it would have ended a long time ago but we arn't at war with the people that comprise the majority of the country other wise common since would have kicked in and they would pick off city's one by 1 in massive air raids.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 29, 2010)

Random_Observer said:


> Islam has not experienced a single century of peace as a secondary religion in a country.
> 
> 
> 
> "let's ignore the concept of freedom of speech whenever *I* say!"



Freedom of speech doesn't apply to the internet, moron.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

Velystord said:


> Last time i checked the supposed insurgents lived in the country but did not represent the country. Other wise it would have ended a long time ago but we arn't at war with the people that comprise the majority of the country other wise common since would have kicked in and they would pick off city's one by 1.


 
As far as I recall said country refused to hand over the ones responsible for the attack, hence war on Iraq. Or Afghanistan, which ever, I dun care.



Random_Observer said:


> Islam has not experienced a single century of peace as a secondary religion in a country.



I will be brutally honest, I hate middle eastern religion, I hated it way before 9/11. I just think their beliefs are down right stupid. I also feel their religions are more about control over people than anything else.


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

fat
sweaty
xenophobic


----------



## Pine (Aug 29, 2010)

I say that they have the right to. Just because somebody follows the Muslim religion doesn't mean they should be labelled as a terrorist or anti-American.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 29, 2010)

Shartblaster said:


> fat
> sweaty
> xenophobic



Another pointless post from you.


Who said I was the idiot?


----------



## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Another pointless post from you.
> 
> 
> Who said I was the idiot?


 
i added the cat face to lighten the mood i dont know why you reported me also why do you take everything so personally


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 29, 2010)

Shartblaster said:


> i added the cat face to lighten the mood i dont know why you reported me also why do you take everything so personally


 
BECAUSE THE INTERNET IS SRS BUSINESS
Anyway I predict this gets locked pretty soon


----------



## MichaelFoster (Aug 29, 2010)

I had a friend die on base in Fort Hood (texas) from a shooting. Some crazy fucking muslim guy shot him and 11 others. I can't say I'm too close to the muslim community.


----------



## Lobar (Aug 30, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I will be brutally honest, I hate middle eastern religion, I hated it way before 9/11. I just think their beliefs are down right stupid. I also feel their religions are more about control over people than anything else.


 
Well of course the theology is ridiculous (as are its predecessors) but you don't make any headway against that by ostracizing them.


----------



## foxmusk (Aug 30, 2010)

this thread is so american i'ma go have some FREEDOM FRIES.


----------



## Isen (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm not angry, America.  Just disappointed.


----------



## foxmusk (Aug 30, 2010)

Isen said:


> I'm not angry, America.  Just disappointed.


 
in what? the terrible xenophobia and injustice still happening in it today?


----------



## Pine (Aug 30, 2010)

inb4 lock

also, why bitch about the Muslim religion so much? can't we all just accept the fact that all religions are crazy and just get people killed? screw Muslims, screw Christians, screw Mormons, and screw Tom Cruise...fucking Scientologist.

also, there is no such thing as Patriotism, only supporting the injustice and imperialism that Uncle Sam has brewing in his flesh balloon.

lolwut


----------



## Isen (Aug 30, 2010)

HarleyRoadkill said:


> in what? the terrible xenophobia and injustice still happening in it today?


Well, yeah.  Mostly it just depresses me that this is an issue in the first place.


----------



## Werewolfhero (Aug 30, 2010)

Uh you guys complaining about the muslims do know that not all of them come from the middle east right?

So switch off the Faux Propaganda Network on the tv, and do your homework on the subject, theres alot that come from china, indonesia, malaysia, let alone africa. And those countries follow the more modernized moderate version of the religion. Much like christians and their "new testimate" version of the bible. 

And the question remains if 2 blocks away is too close then how far away is far enough? What do they have to do? Charter a boat and go into international waters like the casino ships?

I've said it before and i'll say it again, This all isn't concern for 9/11 victims, Its a case of "NOT IN MY BACK YARD" photoshopped to look like concern by the likes of Palin, Beck, and the the Faux Propaganda Network.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 30, 2010)

Werewolfhero said:


> Uh you guys complaining about the muslims do know that not all of them come from the middle east right?
> 
> So switch off the Faux Propaganda Network on the tv, and do your homework on the subject, theres alot that come from china, indonesia, malaysia, let alone africa. And those countries follow the more modernized moderate version of the religion.



Not only that, but the country with the most Muslims isn't _in_ the Middle East - it's *Indonesia* (203 million as of 1009).

Fun fact: There's twice as many Muslims in Germany than there are in the USA. And Chinese Muslims outnumber US Muslims by nearly _ten to one._


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 30, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> Not only that, but the country with the most Muslims isn't _in_ the Middle East - it's *Indonesia* (203 million as of 1009).
> 
> Fun fact: There's twice as many Muslims in Germany than there are in the USA. And Chinese Muslims outnumber US Muslims by nearly _ten to one._


 
I think there was something in Newsweek or maybe Time, I forget which, where they showed the Number of Muslims per country, Number of people total per country, and the number of Mosques in that country. It was very interesting.


----------



## Telnac (Aug 30, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Uh, neither of those are true.  That's just Fox News rattling your chain, again.


 Haven't been following the topic very closely so that wouldn't surprise me.  As I said, it's pretty much a non-issue for me.  I don't see why people are making a bit deal about it.


----------



## Random_Observer (Aug 30, 2010)

Pineapple92 said:


> inb4 lock
> 
> also, why bitch about the Muslim religion so much? can't we all just accept the fact that all religions are crazy and just get people killed? screw Muslims, screw Christians, screw Mormons, and screw Tom Cruise...fucking Scientologist.
> 
> lolwut


 
Heh, Secular Atheist regimes have killed far more than any religious conflict. 

Gotta throw them into the pot of hate too.


----------



## Smelge (Aug 30, 2010)

MichaelFoster said:


> I had a friend die on base in Fort Hood (texas) from a shooting. Some crazy fucking muslim guy shot him and 11 others. I can't say I'm too close to the muslim community.


 
Oh, so you have a legitimate reason to hate Muslims. Instead of, say the Government that said it was ok for him to own the gun, the army who trained him to be a killer and so on and so on. It's a guy who went on a rampage with a gun, failed to get a High Score then died. When anyone else goes on a rampage, they always ignore if he's a Christian, but the second he is Muslim, even if it's only been for a week or two, TERRORIST FUCK TERRORIST HE'LL KILL YOUR UNBORN CHILDREN BECAUSE MUSLIMS ARE LIKE CERVICAL CANCER OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD.

Or is it simply because the media like to portray your average Muslim as a HateMachine meaning everyone is busy looking sideways at every coloured person in a turban in case they suddenly explode you to death.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 30, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> Not only that, but the country with the most Muslims isn't _in_ the Middle East - it's *Indonesia* (203 million as of 1009).
> 
> Fun fact: There's twice as many Muslims in Germany than there are in the USA. And Chinese Muslims outnumber US Muslims by nearly _ten to one._



Sheesh. That makes the muslim population in NYC look tiny. Perhaps it is just an illusion.



Get-dancing said:


> Islam is the second largest religion in the world, if you say they count, non-religious people are third.



I personally wouldn't count non-religious people as a religion due to the fact they are not religious. being non-religious is not a religion.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Aug 30, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Oh, so you have a legitimate reason to hate Muslims. Instead of, say the Government that said it was ok for him to own the gun, the army who trained him to be a killer and so on and so on. It's a guy who went on a rampage with a gun, failed to get a High Score then died. When anyone else goes on a rampage, they always ignore if he's a Christian, but the second he is Muslim, even if it's only been for a week or two, TERRORIST FUCK TERRORIST HE'LL KILL YOUR UNBORN CHILDREN BECAUSE MUSLIMS ARE LIKE CERVICAL CANCER OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD.
> 
> Or is it simply because the media like to portray your average Muslim as a HateMachine meaning everyone is busy looking sideways at every coloured person in a turban in case they suddenly explode you to death.



Can you blame people for thinking this as soon as a muslim kills someone? Considering their reputation and all. If someone killed a member of my family, no matter who they are, gender or what religion they are from I'd still despise them.

Though I'd despise the person who did it, not the religion they were from (if any). 

I don't hate muslims, I just don't trust them. 

The whole thing is not helped by the media putting muslims in a bad light all the time. When people only get to see the negatives of a group of people, bde it us furries, muslims or any group of people, they will start to only believe the negatives.


----------



## ADF (Aug 30, 2010)

Being outside of America, it's hard for me to give a proper view on it. However American law cannot prevent it, in fact the constitution prevents the state from getting involved; because of freedom of religion. If they have been granted building rights, no one has a right to say it cannot go forward because they don't like that religion. Such rules are in place to prevent the majority from discriminating against the minority religions within a area.

That said I saw a video arguing reciprocation on the matter. If the situation was reversed, you couldn't even get in the area; let alone get building planning.


----------



## Tycho (Aug 30, 2010)

MichaelFoster said:


> I had a friend die on base in Fort Hood (texas) from a shooting. Some crazy fucking muslim guy shot him and 11 others. I can't say I'm too close to the muslim community.


 
Oh yeah, I remember that assmunch.



ADF said:


> Being outside of America, it's hard for me to give a proper view on it. However American law cannot prevent it, in fact the constitution prevents the state from getting involved; because of freedom of religion. If they have been granted building rights, no one has a right to say it cannot go forward because they don't like that religion. Such rules are in place to prevent the majority from discriminating against the minority religions within a area.
> 
> That said I saw a video arguing reciprocation on the matter. If the situation was reversed, you couldn't even get in the area; let alone get building planning.


 
Yeah, but you know what? They aren't America.  This is America.  Where we claim to believe in things like "all men are created equal" and freedom of religion, expression, etc.  We need to make good our bluff.

The fact that Muslims abroad are shameless bigots is irrelevant.  This isn't "abroad".


----------



## ADF (Aug 30, 2010)

Tycho said:


> Yeah, but you know what? They aren't America. This is America. Where we claim to believe in things like "all men are created equal" and freedom of religion, expression, etc. We need to make good our bluff.
> 
> The fact that Muslims abroad are shameless bigots is irrelevant. This isn't "abroad".



You are correct, however it is there to think about none the less.


----------



## jeff (Aug 30, 2010)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Sheesh. That makes the muslim population in NYC look tiny. Perhaps it is just an illusion.



jank em and spank em
i dont get it man whats the relevance


----------



## Luca (Aug 30, 2010)

I am 100% agienst it. I going to bet that if they do end up building it anyway a buch of people will burn it to the ground...


----------



## Alsation21 (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm sure the people who died terribly at ground zero would hate this idea and if an mosque is built, I'l; take bets on how long until new yorkers torch the monsque in rightfull anger.


----------



## Atrak (Aug 30, 2010)

der Riese Mudkip said:


> Nothing offensive to other people
> OPINIONS VOICED don't hide your true feelings this is the internet not kindergarten



If you have an opinion, it's going to offend someone.


----------



## Smelge (Aug 30, 2010)

Tycho said:


> The fact that Muslims abroad are shameless bigots is irrelevant.  This isn't "abroad".


Thing is they're not really. They ask that you respect their laws and religious observances while in their countries. That's it. If you run around flouting stuff they are not allowed to do, they're not going to go "DURKA DURKA DURKA TOURISTS OK MOHAMMAD JIHAD DERKA DERK" and let you off. It's a bit like going on holiday to Germany then goose-stepping around with a fake moustache and swastikas on your arm and scream "KILLL ZER JEWZ!. You'll piss them off and you'll get hit by their legal system.



Alsation21 said:


> I'm sure the people who died terribly at ground zero would hate this idea and if an mosque is built, I'l; take bets on how long until new yorkers torch the monsque in rightfull anger.



You are a prick. Sorry, are you putting words into the mouths of the dead? How do you know? Are you a medium? Can you speak to the dead? No? Then shut the fuck up. This is the worst argument going. And what makes it stand higher than the other fucking retarded reasons, is because people scream it on tv and so on like it is the fucking truth. No it isn't. You are using several thousand dead as justification for your own perverted mindset. Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my species you waste of lard.



Luca said:


> I am 100% agienst it. I going to bet that if they do end up building it anyway a buch of people will burn it to the ground...



I'm 100% against your rape of the English language. You are aware that this community centre is to help Muslims integrate, learn languages and so on? You seem to be having plenty of trouble. You should stop your whining and maybe enrol on an English course and learn your fucking language, then come back and tell us why Muslims are bad with reasons other than "everyone says Muslims are bad" or anything that has ever been said on Fox News.


----------



## Attaman (Aug 30, 2010)

Random_Observer said:


> Islam has not experienced a single century of peace as a secondary religion in a country.


  Protip, don't play this game.  Want to see how many predominantly Christian nations haven't gone at least 100 years without some war?  I'll give you a hint:  It's not that far off from the predominantly Islamic nations.  



Alsation21 said:


> I'm sure the people who died terribly at ground zero would hate this idea and if an mosque is built, I'l; take bets on how long until new yorkers torch the monsque in rightfull anger.


Here:  "Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him."

Here you go.


----------



## Gavrill (Aug 30, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Here:  "Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him."
> 
> Here you go.


 
That's rough. Did they file a formal apology or did the officials feel justified in their asshattery?


----------



## Werewolfhero (Aug 30, 2010)

Alsation21 said:


> I'm sure the people who died terribly at ground zero would hate this idea and if an mosque is built, I'l; take bets on how long until new yorkers torch the monsque in rightfull anger.


 
And in doing so would make those who participated in such a heinous act just as bad as the terrorists who destroyed the twin towers and killed so many people. Great job.


----------



## Fenrari (Aug 30, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Here:  "Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him."
> 
> Here you go.



Don't bother fighting with certain people. They have their views constructed and not much will change that view.


----------



## Xipoid (Aug 30, 2010)

I must compartmentalize everything, for I grow weary of complex considerations.


----------



## Ozriel (Aug 30, 2010)

After seeing the Mosques and Islamic centers in Manhattan, I do not really give a damn if it gets built up close to ground Zero.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 30, 2010)

This thread keeps getting better and better. Speaking with the dead to get their opinion on it? Insinuating that a proportional amount of violence would be a good idea? Fuck yes.


All we need is 9/11 Truthers (since we've already had birthers), and Tea Baggers, then we'll be ready to rock.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 30, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> This thread keeps getting better and better. Speaking with the dead to get their opinion on it? Insinuating that a proportional amount of violence would be a good idea? Fuck yes.
> 
> 
> All we need is 9/11 Truthers (since we've already had birthers), and Tea Baggers, then we'll be ready to rock.



Yo dawg, I herd u liek crazy...


----------



## MichaelFoster (Aug 30, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Oh, so you have a legitimate reason to hate Muslims. Instead of, say the Government that said it was ok for him to own the gun, the army who trained him to be a killer and so on and so on. It's a guy who went on a rampage with a gun, failed to get a High Score then died. When anyone else goes on a rampage, they always ignore if he's a Christian, but the second he is Muslim, even if it's only been for a week or two, TERRORIST FUCK TERRORIST HE'LL KILL YOUR UNBORN CHILDREN BECAUSE MUSLIMS ARE LIKE CERVICAL CANCER OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD.
> 
> Or is it simply because the media like to portray your average Muslim as a HateMachine meaning everyone is busy looking sideways at every coloured person in a turban in case they suddenly explode you to death.


Well actually, I'm a bit upset that he killed my friend. Not to seem self-righteous or anything. 

And also that whole 9/11 thing a while ago. 

They also kill people for their religion. 

btw, Im atheist so I don't wanna hear any of that "well christians derp it too!!"


----------



## teh silver-wolf (Aug 30, 2010)

Smelge said:


> This is pretty much the reason why America shouldn't be allowed Politics.


 then we share one view on the world


----------



## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Aug 31, 2010)

MichaelFoster said:


> Well actually, I'm a bit upset that he killed my friend. Not to seem self-righteous or anything.
> 
> And also that whole 9/11 thing a while ago.
> 
> ...


 There are plenty of Christian murderers and rapists, but very, very few, do what they do in the name of JAYZUS. Likewise, there is nothing to suggest that the Fort Hood killer committed mass-murder in the name of God or Islam.

Maybe it just irks me a little when people look at my neighbour like she's got a bomb under her hijab.


----------



## Lammergeier (Aug 31, 2010)

wacky third option

I feel like if new yorkers really didnt want it they should just change the zoning laws. But really its 'not' at ground zero its a few blocks away. and its a community center. And there already is a mosque quite close to ground zero i believe


----------



## Conker (Aug 31, 2010)

I say let em.


----------



## MrKovu (Aug 31, 2010)

I think it's adding insult to injury if it does happen, but I really don't care.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Aug 31, 2010)

Smelge said:
			
		

> You are aware that this community centre is to help Muslims integrate, learn languages and so on?



But Muslim communities around the world refuse to integrate. It's not that they need help to, they just don't want to.



			
				Smelge said:
			
		

> Thing is they're not really. They ask that you respect their laws and  religious observances while in their countries. That's it. If you run  around flouting stuff they are not allowed to do, they're not going to  go "DURKA DURKA DURKA TOURISTS OK MOHAMMAD JIHAD DERKA DERK" and let you  off. It's a bit like going on holiday to Germany then goose-stepping  around with a fake moustache and swastikas on your arm and scream "KILLL  ZER JEWZ!. You'll piss them off and you'll get hit by their legal  system.



The difference being that the Nazi's actually existed and did something. There is no reason why, in their country or any other, you should have to behave in a manner that the fantasies of some thousand-years-dead guy would find acceptable.


----------



## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Aug 31, 2010)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> But Muslim communities around the world refuse to integrate. It's not that they need help to, they just don't want to.


Of course Muslims "around the world" aren't going to integrate. A Turkish Muslim would have no reason to integrate into Turkish society because he is the society. In China, Muslims don't have to integrate because even though they're a minority, they've been well-established since at least the Song Dynasty.

But you're right, Muslims in America really do need to integrate. They really ought to open some sort of centre that focuses on bringing moderate Muslims together with the general public in a relaxed, secular atmosphere. Surely no one would have any objection to that?

Integration goes both ways.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 31, 2010)

So this has come down to Nazi's, I see.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 31, 2010)

Fenrari said:


> Don't bother fighting with certain people. They have their views constructed and not much will change that view.


 
*Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims*



> SALINA, KSâ€”Local man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.
> 
> Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.
> 
> ...


----------



## greg-the-fox (Aug 31, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> *Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims*


 
God I love the Onion


----------



## Hakar Kerarmor (Aug 31, 2010)

So are we going to stop Christian churches from being built near schools? I mean, think of the children.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm must gonna copypasta what I've already expressed on my facebook (after someone I know joined the NO MOSQUE ON GROUND ZERO group).

"People are making a huge deal out of it, saying that it's disgracing the memory of the people who died during 9/11. However, no one seems to mind the brothels and gambling holes which are all the same distance from the site or closer than the proposed Mosque. Surely those are more disrespectful than a place where peaceful people can go and worship? There's already a Mosque there that's been around longer than the World Trade Center and no one's ever made a fuss. Ergh."

So then I read up a bit more and found out it's actually a centre to try and promote inter-faith realtions, and tell me, how is that a bad thing?

Seriously people, you can't go around saying America is the country of equality of religion, race etc and then scream and shout when Muslims want to do something. It's SO hypocritical.


----------



## Random_Observer (Aug 31, 2010)

ramsay_baggins said:


> So then I read up a bit more and found out it's actually a centre to try and promote inter-faith realtions, and tell me, how is that a bad thing?
> 
> Seriously people, you can't go around saying America is the country of equality of religion, race etc and then scream and shout when Muslims want to do something. It's SO hypocritical.


 
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAna...nagement-Al-Qaida-Now-Poses-Inner-Threat.aspx

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain.pdf



> â€œIf Sharia law is implemented, then you can turn this country into a haven of peace because once a thiefâ€™s hand is cut off nobody is going to steal.
> â€œOnce, just only once, if an adulterer is stoned nobody is going to commit this crime at all.
> â€œWe want to offer it to the British society. If they accept it, it is for their good and if they donâ€™t accept it theyâ€™ll need more and more prisons.â€
> Suhaib Hasan, Secretary General of the Islamic Sharia Council



Britain made the mistake of letting them gain too much of a foothold.



> More bad news for Muslims who dream of making their new Canadian homeland a little more like the backward, repressive nations they once fled. The other week Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty announced a ban on Islamic or Sharia law in the province. McGuinty's pronouncement means the end of government sanction for the province's rabbinical and Christian tribunals too, and has the justices of Ontario's Rastafarian Supreme Court sitting around smoking ganja and saying, "Ah, mon, what a drag, mon."
> 
> McGuinty told the Associated Press that religious arbitrations "threaten the common ground" on which stands Canada's most populous province. "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario," he said. "There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians." Religious courts may continue to operate in private, though without government backing.
> 
> The Ontario government's return to sanity came after weeks of dogged protests by Canadian women's groups that have uncharacteristically decided that giving in to each and every hare-brained multiculturalist demand may not be such an enlightened idea after all. Even Muslim Canadian Congress founder Tarek Fatah called the proposal "multiculturalism run amok."


----------



## ShadowEon (Aug 31, 2010)

I voted no. I don't support it being built there,anywhere else is fine but putting it there just seems insensitive.

They said there is not a really vast Muslim population in the area so it is not very practical. The person heading the thing also is one of those people that say it is all our fault 9/11 happened....so yeah, that is not exactly great.

And I know people are like amendment this amendment that,just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

So yeah,don't support it. Elsewhere is fine,near/at ground zero-no.

It is going to be built whether people like it or not though so eh. =/


----------



## Zontar (Aug 31, 2010)

I don't support it becuase Muslims brought the damn thing down to begin with.

NOTHING religious needs to go there, because dogmatic adherence to second-century mythology is the reason why things like these happen.


----------



## Smelge (Aug 31, 2010)

Random_Observer said:


> http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAna...nagement-Al-Qaida-Now-Poses-Inner-Threat.aspx
> 
> http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain.pdf
> Britain made the mistake of letting them gain too much of a foothold.


 
I have stepped in dog-eggs more intelligent than you. Seriously.

The whole Sharia law brouhaha was nothing to do with your standard on the street Muslims. Most of them didn't even support it. In fact, the one single extremist muslim that said something in passing said it as a joke. A joke that was picked up by a party we call the BNP, who are the British equivalent of Fox News. A bunch of fucktarded bigots who want their men in power to re-enact Hitlers Germany, but with all the ethnic minorities. It's the BNP that suddenly started saying this is what the muslims wanted to do IN YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD. They didn't care that it was so stupid the radical Islamics had said it jokingly then forgot all about it. They did care because it's loud and brash and everyone needs to panic now because the only hope to stop Britain becoming a Sharia country is by voting BNP.

Which very few did, because unlike America, we can spot retards like this coming, while in the US, you give him his own show on a "news" channel then excitedly cover the latest development caused by your own shoddy reporting.

Fuck off until you can come back with something that isn't moronic.


----------



## Mayfurr (Aug 31, 2010)

ShadowEon said:


> They said there is not a really vast Muslim population in the area so it is not very practical.



Actually, it's because the local Muslim population have grown too _big_ for their existing facilities that this is being built. Even if this wasn't the case, they're the ones paying for the thing - and isn't one of the  things America keeps trumpeting to the rest of the planet is that in the US you have the freedom to blow your money on virtually anything you like that's legal, regardless of how "practical" it is?



ShadowEon said:


> The person heading the thing also is one of those people that say it is all our fault 9/11 happened....so yeah, that is not exactly great.



Of course, because pointing out the rationale for other people's criminal behaviour = supporting criminal behaviour, amitrite? 



ShadowEon said:


> So yeah,don't support it. Elsewhere is fine,near/at ground zero-no.



And how far exactly does it have to be away from "ground zero" for it not to be "insensitive"? One mile? Five? Ten? One hundred? A thousand, even?


----------



## Smelge (Aug 31, 2010)

ShadowEon said:


> The person heading the thing also is one of those people that say it is all our fault 9/11 happened


 
Please feel free to show your source. And note that Fox News does not count as a valid source of facts.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Aug 31, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Please feel free to show your source. And note that Fox News does not count as a valid source of facts.


 
Well how else is he supposed to show that 9/11 was an inside job? You know it was an inside job, don't you?


----------



## Smelge (Aug 31, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Well how else is he supposed to show that 9/11 was an inside job? You know it was an inside job, don't you?


 
Of course it fucking was. The airplanes got inside the building and melted the shit out of it.


----------



## Aleu (Aug 31, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> Actually, it's because the local Muslim population have grown too _big_ for their existing facilities that this is being built. Even if this wasn't the case, they're the ones paying for the thing -* and isn't one of the  things America keeps trumpeting to the rest of the planet is that in the US you have the freedom to blow your money on virtually anything you like that's legal, regardless of how "practical" it is?*


 You missed the fine print. It has to be Christian-related.


----------



## Nineteen-TwentySeven (Aug 31, 2010)

I didn't vote, cause I know what it is, and frankly, I'm indifferent. It's a fucking ABANDONED COAT FACTORY, that's TWO BLOCKS (That's almost a quarter of a mile!) from where ground zero _HAPPENS_ to be.

I just enjoy listening to the butthurt conservatives.


----------



## Mayonnaise (Aug 31, 2010)

Maybe they should reconsider building it. Too much shitstorm. The building is probably going to get vandalised and people may get hurt or killed later on.


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## Patashu (Aug 31, 2010)

Radio Viewer said:


> Maybe they should reconsider building it. Too much shitstorm. The building is probably going to get vandalised and people may get hurt or killed later on.


 
And empower the old white conservative block?


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## Mayonnaise (Aug 31, 2010)

Patashu said:


> And empower the old white conservative block?


 Ah damn... That would be worse.


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## ShadowEon (Aug 31, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> Actually, it's because the local Muslim population have grown too _big_ for their existing facilities that this is being built. Even if this wasn't the case, they're the ones paying for the thing - and isn't one of the  things America keeps trumpeting to the rest of the planet is that in the US you have the freedom to blow your money on virtually anything you like that's legal, regardless of how "practical" it is?
> 
> Of course, because pointing out the rationale for other people's criminal behaviour = supporting criminal behaviour, amitrite?
> 
> And how far exactly does it have to be away from "ground zero" for it not to be "insensitive"? One mile? Five? Ten? One hundred? A thousand, even?



1)That is rarely mentioned so I was not aware of the growing population of Muslims to that degree in that area.
2)*Shrugs* Just wish a better person was heading the project
3)5 is good.



Smelge said:


> Please feel free to show your source. And note that Fox News does not count as a valid source of facts.


 
It was on Fox news but why do people have to jump all over the news station,what just because it is conservative? The video they showed had him directly speaking as well.


----------



## Deleted member 19863 (Aug 31, 2010)

Although I support this, it won't make a difference in the actual debate voting on the poll on this topic. Pity.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 31, 2010)

ShadowEon said:


> It was on Fox news but why do people have to jump all over the news station,what just because it is conservative? The video they showed had him directly speaking as well.


 
They don't jump on Fox because it's conservative (although that is a good enough reason all its own), but because of their large, and long track record of outright lies, loads of misinformation, and with "commentators" on a "news" channel, a cult-like following.

Cults never seem to go over too well.


----------



## Bobskunk (Aug 31, 2010)

oh my I guess there are threads in Off Topic as well, still doesn't change the fact that every other subforum is bad

nice to see r_o is making an appearance in his usual way, but nicer to see most of the posters and voters are being pretty reasonable, counter to my expectations.

EDIT: Since the slashed cabbie thread is closed (and with it, crackers + darkwing's complaint) if you're out there Roose I'd like to bring you up to speed on that Greek Orthodox church and how it is a completely different animal


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 1, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> if you're out there Roose I'd like to bring you up to speed on that Greek Orthodox church and how it is a completely different animal


 
*facepalm* Hasn't that particular line been beaten to a bloody pulp already?


----------



## greg-the-fox (Sep 1, 2010)

ShadowEon said:


> It was on Fox news but why do people have to jump all over the news station,what just because it is conservative? The video they showed had him directly speaking as well.


 
Video isn't OMGINSTANTPROOF you know. Fox has a reputation for taking things out of context and putting their own spin on them. Just look at what happened to Shirley Sherrod.


----------



## jeff (Sep 1, 2010)

ShadowEon said:


> It was on Fox news but why do people have to jump all over the news station,what just because it is conservative? The video they showed had him directly speaking as well.


 
i think what eon's referring to here is when rauf was discussing the reaction and ideology behind what happened at 9/11
he didn't claim it was "all our fault," he claimed that "us policy was an accessory [to 9/11]"
i dont know how it couldnt have been

his ideas are very reasonable if you listen to him

but i dont know people hear him say things like "in the west we forget that the west has more innocent muslim blood on its hands than al qaeda has innocent non-muslim blood" and somehow take that as the smoking gun


of what i have absolutely no idea
i dont know how far you can distort reality to support your position (how can you slice what he said as anything but an unfortunate truth)


----------



## Atrak (Sep 1, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> They don't jump on Fox because it's conservative (although that is a good enough reason all its own), but because of their large, and long track record of outright lies, loads of misinformation, and with "commentators" on a "news" channel, a cult-like following.
> 
> Cults never seem to go over too well.



No wonder my step-dad likes Fox News.


----------



## Lobar (Sep 1, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> EDIT: Since the slashed cabbie thread is closed (and with it, crackers + darkwing's complaint) if you're out there Roose I'd like to bring you up to speed on that Greek Orthodox church and how it is a completely different animal


 
It's not closed, just a little buried.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/81126-Muslim-Cab-driver-slashed-by-NY-resident


----------



## Atrak (Sep 1, 2010)

Lobar said:


> Yummy pineapple beer.


 
It's the Epilepsy Squirrel!


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 1, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> *facepalm* Hasn't that particular line been beaten to a bloody pulp already?


 
Oh, I guess it had.  I must have missed the page where people were trying to beat it into his thick skull that nothing has prevented them from rebuilding it, they were offered money from the port authority to do it, but they wanted more money and more land.

Does Roose finally understand that, or how Park51 is paid for by itself rather than demanding cash from the city?

EDIT: no of course not his obtuse hubris will never allow it and he'll still call other people retards for being right and daring to say that he is, in fact, wrong.  fuck you, roose


----------



## Alsation21 (Sep 1, 2010)

Werewolfhero said:


> And in doing so would make those who participated in such a heinous act just as bad as the terrorists who destroyed the twin towers and killed so many people. Great job.



Eh no, what would make them twice as bad would be to hijack some muslim planes and fly them into mecca or that islamic dome of the rock. Burning down an Mosque on an clearly inapropriate place where several thosand Americans died is hardly anything compared to what's been endured on that site.


----------



## Fere (Sep 1, 2010)

Some of my best friends are devout muslims, and I live in urban Birmingham which has a sizeable muslim population. I really don't see the problem. 

If a mosque were to be refused on this site in NYC, the same logic could be applied in respect to not allowing any people of Irish descent to live in places like London (IRA Docklands bombing) and Manchester (IRA city centre bombing). When you look at it on that score, it is rather ludicrous. 

9/11 was indeed a terrible terrible thing. But we can't allow an entire religion, culture and its people to be vilified by a minority's disturbing and insane actions.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 1, 2010)

Alsation21 said:


> Eh no, what would make them twice as bad would be to hijack some muslim planes and fly them into mecca or that islamic dome of the rock. Burning down an Mosque on an clearly inapropriate place where several thosand Americans died is hardly anything compared to what's been endured on that site.


 
you still try to excuse the violence in that scenario by drawing a comparison to a much worse event?
that's like saying 9/11 wasn't so bad, relative to the number of people killed in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.
9/11 was fucked up and reprehensible, and any bombing of this community center would be too.  even if the reasoning and motivation behind it was completely understandable, it's also absolutely unacceptable.
people don't have the right to be free from offense, as in offended by the location of this place, but they do NOT have the right to attack and destroy that same article of offense


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 2, 2010)

This cartoon sums the whole "mosque" affair up.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 2, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Please feel free to show your source. And note that Fox News does not count as a valid source of facts.


 
Funny thing is, Fox News hosts have said in the past that it's our fault.  OH SHI-

ITT: People with no personal connection to 9/11 other than the fact that they're American (in some cases not even that) weigh in on what's disrespecting New Yorkers who have to actually deal with the Mosque, thus following the political misdirection politicians are using to keep our attention away from real issues.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Sep 2, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Funny thing is, Fox News hosts have said in the past that it's our fault.  OH SHI-
> 
> ITT: People with no personal connection to 9/11 other than the fact that they're American (in some cases not even that) weigh in on what's disrespecting New Yorkers who have to actually deal with the Mosque, thus following the political misdirection politicians are using to keep our attention away from real issues.


 
I've heard that most actual New Yorkers don't really give a shit, it's the rest of the country that's freaking out


----------



## Smelge (Sep 2, 2010)

Alsation21 said:


> Burning down an Mosque on an clearly inapropriate place where several thosand Americans died is hardly anything compared to what's been endured on that site.


 
What? Thousands of people died in an abandoned coat factory?

I can't find any news reports about this one.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 2, 2010)

Smelge said:


> What? Thousands of people died in an abandoned coat factory?
> 
> I can't find any news reports about this one.


 
There was an incident with some sweatshop workers there a while back :V


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 2, 2010)

i can't tell if you're being serious or i'm being overly pedantic but burlington coat factory is just an outlet store, pretty sure at least half the stuff in there as in any retail store is really made in china


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## Smelge (Sep 2, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> i can't tell if you're being serious or i'm being overly pedantic but burlington coat factory is just an outlet store, pretty sure at least half the stuff in there as in any retail store is really made in china


 
Having never been to New York, I was going by it's name.


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## Bobskunk (Sep 2, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Having never been to New York, I was going by it's name.


 
it's a national chain store
EDIT: oh right, scotland


----------



## Smelge (Sep 2, 2010)

To be fair, we have factory outlet shops here, and I was wondering what a coat factory was doing in that area.


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## Bobskunk (Sep 2, 2010)

Smelge said:


> To be fair, we have factory outlet shops here, and I was wondering what a coat factory was doing in that area.


 
it's not terribly intuitive and as a kid i had the same impression
however the preservation of this burlington coat factory as a landmark stinks of the same sort of mentality that leads people to buy and sell "100% genuine lady gaga's tampon wrapper" on ebay for 50bux


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 2, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> I've heard that most actual New Yorkers don't really give a shit, it's the rest of the country that's freaking out


 
Exactly my point.  Most New Yorkers couldn't care less, nor do those personally affected by 9/11 by loss of family members in the surrounding tri-state area.  Most are more concerned about A) Building a new building on the site and B) Those damn cigarette taxes making a pack cost upwards of $15.


----------



## Aleu (Sep 2, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Exactly my point.  Most New Yorkers couldn't care less, nor do those personally affected by 9/11 by loss of family members in the surrounding tri-state area.  Most are more concerned about A) Building a new building on the site and B) Those damn cigarette taxes making a pack cost upwards of $15.


 can I have a link to this stat so I can use it against retards in my area?


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Sep 2, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Exactly my point.  Most New Yorkers couldn't care less, nor do those personally affected by 9/11 by loss of family members in the surrounding tri-state area.  Most are more concerned about A) Building a new building on the site and B) Those damn cigarette taxes making a pack cost upwards of $15.



I am wondering when smokers will realize it is one hell of an expensive habit.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 2, 2010)

AleutheWolf said:


> can I have a link to this stat so I can use it against retards in my area?


 
people in manhattan support park 51's construction more than they disapprove

funny how the closer you get to the actual site, closer to the people actually affected weighing in, support goes up.

From July, Quinnipiac, NYC 52%-31% oppose, Manhattan 46%-36% Support
From August 10, Marist, NYC 53%-34% oppose, 53%-31% support(PDF)


bonus

EDIT: It's interesting that in the second poll, the metric of highest support, even higher than "identifies as liberal," is living in manhattan.  where the WTC stood.  where park 51 is being built.
HMMMMMMM.


----------



## Hakar Kerarmor (Sep 3, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Exactly my point.  Most New Yorkers couldn't care less, nor do those personally affected by 9/11 by loss of family members in the surrounding tri-state area.  Most are more concerned about A) Building a new building on the site and B) Those damn cigarette taxes making a pack cost upwards of $15.


 
So in other words the rest of the US needs to stop white knighting?


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 3, 2010)

Hakar Kerarmor said:


> So in other words the rest of the US needs to stop white knighting?


 
Including those in this thread.

Unfortunately certain media outlets have gone out of their way to blow this issue out of proportion and, Republican candidates and Tea Party activists have jumped at the opportunity to make this a campaign issue.  Don't be surprised if some candidate from Ohio is asked "Do you support the mosque at Ground Zero," when he has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Again, read this carefully people, IS IT ANY WONDER THAT THIS ISSUE IS COMING OUT NOW THREE MONTHS OUTSIDE OF AN ELECTION?  HMMMMMM.

Manufactured platforms to prey on the knee-jerk minded.  Politics in action.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Sep 3, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Including those in this thread.
> 
> Unfortunately certain media outlets have gone out of their way to blow this issue out of proportion and, Republican candidates and Tea Party activists have jumped at the opportunity to make this a campaign issue.  Don't be surprised if some candidate from Ohio is asked "Do you support the mosque at Ground Zero," when he has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
> 
> ...


 
Pardon my ignorance, but why would it matter in an election?


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 3, 2010)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but why would it matter in an election?


 


			
				Me said:
			
		

> Manufactured platforms to prey on the knee-jerk minded. Politics in action.



Look back at the 2004 election between Bush and Kerry and see how that election was won.

The Republican ticket was filled with "family/religious values" spurred on by a rising support for Gay/Lesbian rights and a news story which broke out about an atheist who made national headlines because he complained his son was forced to hear "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance and see "In God We Trust" on his money.  Meanwhile, they also were still riding the coat tails of 9/11 Patriotism, while not taking into account how much the war was spending or if we really should have been talking about invading Iraq.

The Democratic ticket made America seem "soft" during war by their platform of persuading Middle East countries to root out terrorist cells instead of just going after them like we've done.  They also denied a federal ban on same-sex marriages which didn't exactly go along with "family values".

Were there other issues?  Yes, but these were the most prominent and ultimately gave Bush a second term over Kerry.  These issues were overplayed by the news when more important issues such as the war, health care, and the economy were ignored.  Basing their political platforms off news headlines in order to strike an emotional cord with the voting public, specifically moderates.

I'd argue you're seeing the same thing right now.  This is a news story with absolutely no connection to anyone in America outside of the tri-state area of New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey because of how many people who commute and do business in NYC.  Yet people around the United States are weighing in on something which most people don't even give two shits about until they were told to care.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Sep 3, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Look back at the 2004 election between Bush and Kerry and see how that election was won.
> 
> The Republican ticket was filled with "family/religious values" spurred on by a rising support for Gay/Lesbian rights and a news story which broke out about an atheist who made national headlines because he complained his son was forced to hear "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance and see "In God We Trust" on his money.  Meanwhile, they also were still riding the coat tails of 9/11 Patriotism, while not taking into account how much the war was spending or if we really should have been talking about invading Iraq.
> 
> ...


 
I'm glad I don't watch the news.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 3, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Including those in this thread.
> 
> Unfortunately certain media outlets have gone out of their way to blow this issue out of proportion and, Republican candidates and Tea Party activists have jumped at the opportunity to make this a campaign issue.  Don't be surprised if some candidate from Ohio is asked "Do you support the mosque at Ground Zero," when he has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
> 
> ...


 
I don't let "hot-button" issues like this solely dictate how I place my vote, if that's what you're implying.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 3, 2010)

Tycho said:


> I don't let "hot-button" issues like this solely dictate how I place my vote, if that's what you're implying.


 
I'm stating that this is a political tactic to garner votes by polarizing the landscape, not whether or not it will work in this instance to influence you or anyone else on this board.  History does show that people can be swayed on "hot-button" headline news platforms.


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 3, 2010)

It'll be a center used to teach sharia law, and I consider sharia law incompatible with capitalism/a free society.  I also consider it to be a slap in the face that they're opening it on the anniversary of 9/11...

BUT, that being said, they are free to build it.  I just don't want them to.  If I'm an advocate of liberty, I can't deny it to someone else based on their beliefs.

Of course, my mind could change if some of the claims made about the guys behind it turn out to be true...  but until there's incontrovertible evidence, i'm not going to bother addressing those claims...  of course, it wouldn't surprise me, considering the fact that they are naming the place cordoba...

So I vote "no" for support, but "yes" for allowing them to build.  If you find out later that they have strong ties to terrorist organizations like hamas or the taliban, you can always take action against them later...


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 3, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> It'll be a center used to teach sharia law, and I consider sharia law incompatible with capitalism/a free society.  I also consider it to be a slap in the face that they're opening it on the anniversary of 9/11...


 
You know what else conflicts with a free society?


The Bible.


----------



## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Sep 3, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> It'll be a center used to teach sharia law,


I'm not sure where you heard that, but I can guess.



Fenrir Lupus said:


> BUT, that being said, they are free to build it.  I just don't want them to.  If I'm an advocate of liberty, I can't deny it to someone else based on their beliefs.


Well, that's reasonable enough.



Fenrir Lupus said:


> Of course, my mind could change if some of the claims made about the guys behind it turn out to be true...  but until there's incontrovertible evidence, i'm not going to bother addressing those claims...  of course, it wouldn't surprise me, considering the fact that they are naming the place cordoba...


Okay, some background. Cordoba was historically the seat of the Caliphate of Al-Andalus, or Muslim Spain. During medieval times, it became renowned as a centre of learning and cultural exchange. People from all over Europe and the Arab world flocked there, including. The Moors permitted and even encouraged public interfaith dialogue between Muslims, Christians and Jews (yes, Jews were allowed in as well, which is more than most of Medieval Europe can say). Another fact that often tends to get overlooked is that Al-Andalus was not a case of a religious minority imposing its rule over an oppressed Christian majority. When Islamic armies arrived in Iberia, they found a Visigothic kingdom on the verge of ruin. Famine and lawlessness were rampant. The "invaders" were in fact welcomed by the population, many of whom converted to Islam of their own free will. While the rest of Christian Europe saw Al-Andalus as a disgraceful reminder of a Christian kingdom lost, the Spaniards were enjoying a superior quality of life as a result of Islam's Golden Age of science and technology. And at the heart of everything was the wealthy capital of Cordoba.

But what does all this history have to do with the current "mosque" controversy? The name Cordoba House was not meant to represent Islamic conquest, it was chosen because of Cordoba's significance as a centre of learning, dialogue and interfaith tolerance. As it happens, once Al-Andalus was reconquered for Christianity in a series of bloody conflicts, Cordoba's great mosque was re-purposed as a Christian cathedral, symbolic of the victory of the righteous, civilized Christians against the invading infidel.

It's things like this that make me wish people would open a book or two rather than just eat up what they're fed by the pundits.


\By the way, have you considered that Sharia law, morally reprehensible though it may be, is probably far more in line with Randist-Capitalist values than Biblical law?


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 3, 2010)

Easog said:


> By the way, have you considered that Sharia law, morally reprehensible though it may be, is probably far more in line with Randist-Capitalist values than Biblical law?


 
Howso?  (and quite honestly, how many christians bother following biblical law outside the 10 commandments?)


----------



## Nyloc (Sep 3, 2010)

I've been screwed over plenty of times by Christians and not once by any Muslims. It is by this extremely biased and innacurate representation of the groups that I pledge my allegiance to that of Islam in this matter. Seeing as I live nowhere near New York, however, rest assured that my views have absolutely no weight.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 3, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> *It'll be a center used to teach sharia law, and I consider sharia law incompatible with capitalism/a free society.  I also consider it to be a slap in the face that they're opening it on the anniversary of 9/11...*
> 
> BUT, that being said, they are free to build it.  I just don't want them to.  If I'm an advocate of liberty, I can't deny it to someone else based on their beliefs.
> 
> ...


 
are you kidding me

i bolded what was stupid and underlined what was entirely false

not only will sharia not be taught there, you should probably look up what Sufiism is.  you call for "moderate muslims" to condemn terrorism, yet this Imam gets condemned as a radical when really he's an Islamic hippie.  He toured the Middle East many times trying to correct people's hateful and wrong impressions of the U.S. and what the "War on Terror" was supposed to mean- a fight against extremism rather than the fight against Islam many meatheads (both American and terrorist) cheer it on to be.

There's no evidence FOR this guy being a bad guy or this cultural center (called Park51 and not a mosque) being a means of spreading sharia, let alone incontrovertible, yet it's what you believe anyway.  You're entitled to that belief, but it's still wrong and retarded and rooted in fear rather than fact.

Also please tell me why conservatives (when they get to ranting like this on the internet) use so goddamn many ellipses.  It's like you have no confidence at all in what you're saying.  "yeah...... well.....  islam.... is full of people that want to blow up the world..... all of it..... just you wait....."  Jesus, if you're going to have convictions whether they're bullshit or not at least stick up for it and be a man about it.

and again, thanks for hurting america

EDIT: easog you own owls own


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 3, 2010)

@Bobskunk

RAEG MUCH?  I'd suggest making your argument less trollish.  Until then, you deserve no response.
I don't care what you believe, don't be an ass about it.

P.S. You're right about easog.  He's not an asshole.

And...  i'll use ellipses...  whenever I want...  thank you very much...


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 3, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> And...  i'll use ellipses...  whenever I want...  thank you very much...



"... because I pause... in the middle... of my sentences...

<wait for it>

_... in the world_."

/Jeremy Clarkson


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 3, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> @Bobskunk
> 
> RAEG MUCH?  I'd suggest making your argument less trollish.  Until then, you deserve no response.
> I don't care what you believe, don't be an ass about it.
> ...



where do you get the idea i'm enraged by calling you stupid and wrong?  ignoring what i've said just because it wasn't delivered nicely enough (i.e. you're a thin skinned little babyman) is a complete copout.  i might as well say you didn't deserve a response (other than 100% mockery, maybe) because you were so offbase.

ellipses make you look like an insecure tool.  use it whenever you want, however much you want, you're free to do so, it doesn't change the fact that it gives the impression that you're an unsure quivering little weasel

lol conservatives are terrified of everything


----------



## Nyloc (Sep 3, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> "... because I pause... in the middle... of my sentences...
> 
> <wait for it>
> 
> ...




That was... by far... the worst post....

... _in the thread.

_But Clarkson is awesome


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 3, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> where do you get the idea i'm enraged by calling you stupid and wrong?  ignoring what i've said just because it wasn't delivered nicely enough (i.e. you're a thin skinned little babyman) is a complete copout.  i might as well say you didn't deserve a response (other than 100% mockery, maybe) because you were so offbase.
> 
> ellipses make you look like an insecure tool.  use it whenever you want, however much you want, you're free to do so, it doesn't change the fact that it gives the impression that you're an unsure quivering little weasel
> 
> lol conservatives are terrified of everything


 
Generalizations, check.
Insults, check.
Accusations, check.
Argument...  I checked, but couldn't find one.

Calling someone stupid never convinces them of anything.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 3, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Generalizations, check.
> Insults, check.
> Accusations, check.
> Argument...  I checked, but couldn't find one.
> ...


 
that specific post was made up entirely of insults (because you deserve insults)

the one with arguments is this one right here that you're making every effort to ignore.  For that matter... If you're so offended by my delivery, why not take up Easog on his points?  Unless you're using me calling you an imbecile as a way to avoid addressing anything that runs counter to your deeply held personal beliefs on this matter (i.e. finding ways to validate the narrative of 'radical imam' with bad, if any, evidence to support that but being incredibly skeptical of anyone saying otherwise.)

Make your case.  Tell us why you're right.  Easog was way, way more deferential to you than you deserved, so take him on if you have something intelligent to say and have a problem with how I address you.


----------



## MichaelFoster (Sep 4, 2010)

I think I might "get someone else" to make multi-accounts so that said person can vote no a few more times. Or I could let some one burn it down, which is probably what's going to happen anyway. Yeah, I know right? It sucks. And let me tell ya. I care...


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 4, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> that specific post was made up entirely of insults (because you deserve insults)
> 
> the one with arguments is this one right here that you're making every effort to ignore.  For that matter... If you're so offended by my delivery, why not take up Easog on his points?  Unless you're using me calling you an imbecile as a way to avoid addressing anything that runs counter to your deeply held personal beliefs on this matter (i.e. finding ways to validate the narrative of 'radical imam' with bad, if any, evidence to support that but being incredibly skeptical of anyone saying otherwise.)
> 
> Make your case.  Tell us why you're right.  Easog was way, way more deferential to you than you deserved, so take him on if you have something intelligent to say and have a problem with how I address you.


 
Your argument is little more than a dressed up "UR WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG"


----------



## jeff (Sep 4, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Your argument is little more than a dressed up "UR WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG"


 
he refutes your points pretty concisely in that original post, are you sure you dont want to even try to handle this gracefully???
although, i would like to know why you think rauf is "radical"


----------



## greg-the-fox (Sep 4, 2010)

MichaelFoster said:


> I think I might "get someone else" to make multi-accounts so that said person can vote no a few more times. Or I could let some one burn it down, which is probably what's going to happen anyway. Yeah, I know right? It sucks. And let me tell ya. I care...


 
You're very mature in this matter good sir.


----------



## Gavrill (Sep 4, 2010)

MichaelFoster said:


> I think I might "get someone else" to make multi-accounts so that said person can vote no a few more times. Or I could let some one burn it down, which is probably what's going to happen anyway. Yeah, I know right? It sucks. And let me tell ya. I care...


 
You're so edgy, you must get all the dumb bimbos.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Your argument is little more than a dressed up "UR WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG"


 
and your argument is a load of baseless assertion, most prominently that sharia quip

oh wait, it's not baseless at all, is it?  if it's based on fear, it can't be baseless by definition!!!!!

it's telling how you say "you could change your mind" if the things people say about him are true (i.e. that he doesn't hate america, that he is not a radical, that he is not trying to preach hatred.)  the way the works is that outlandish claims (like imam rauf being some word salad of a hamas terrorist sharia taliban america hater) are the ones that have the burden of incontrovertible proof, otherwise you should show me incontrovertible evidence that you don't rape puppies or some other horrible thing.  Because you can't.  You can't prove a negative to the satisfaction of someone who is unreasonably skeptical or intentionally obtuse in the first place.  Even if you provided all the evidence in the world to the contrary, there could always exist some sort of doubt, some minor hole, or even just the outright rejection of what you present in favor of my pre-held notion that you've done a Very Awful Thing, my conception of such hinging entirely on a feeling or an impression!

I mean, you're a conservative, right?  right.  What if there's correlation between conservatism and puppy rape?  Whether it's true or not, someone's perception is a strong thing, especially if it turned out that many people draw the same connection I (hypothetically) do.  Wouldn't that mean i should assume you're a puppy rapist until you prove otherwise?  and even then, puppy rapists aren't acceptable in society, so it's not like you'd come out as one.  you'd deny it.  you'd hide it.  all the more reason to suspect guilt, right?  replace "vocally and legislatively anti-gay closeted homosexual" for puppy rapist if you're offended by that, or "elevator farter" if you're offended by that, or "huge goddamn crybaby" if you're offended by that

i do actually argue i just have run out of patience and respect for the right wing in this country particularly when it's hard to tell the difference vvvvvv this teenager shit and the stuff middle-aged people write on free republic



MichaelFoster said:


> I think I might "get someone else" to make multi-accounts so that said person can vote no a few more times. Or I could let some one burn it down, which is probably what's going to happen anyway. Yeah, I know right? It sucks. And let me tell ya. I care...


 
you're 16


----------



## Attaman (Sep 4, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Generalizations, check.
> Insults, check.
> Accusations, check.
> Argument...  I checked, but couldn't find one.
> ...





Fenrir Lupus said:


> It'll be a center used to teach sharia law, and I consider sharia law incompatible with capitalism/a free society.  I also consider it to be a slap in the face that they're opening it on the anniversary of 9/11...
> 
> BUT, that being said, they are free to build it.  I just don't want them to.  If I'm an advocate of liberty, I can't deny it to someone else based on their beliefs.
> 
> ...



My god, I hit the mother load.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Attaman said:


> My god, I hit the mother load.


 
he's most likely a puppy rapist, since he hasn't produced any incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.  i find it suspicious and alarming that he has yet to speak up to even defend himself from puppy-raping allegations, which are very serious and if I was him I would have denied them and denounced puppy rapery in general by now.  I'm not saying all conservatives are puppy rapists, of course, it just seems to be a recurring issue, especially since we see few (if any!) moderate conservatives working with normal people to fight the shocking levels of puppy rape we see today.

i mean, it's fair to assume, isn't it?  conservatives can always just prove with hard evidence that they have never, even for a moment of their life, considered, planned, or acted upon their natural impulse to rape puppies, to the satisfaction of whatever flexible criteria I care to apply at any given moment.  isn't that fair?


----------



## Leafblower29 (Sep 4, 2010)

I believe strongly in religious freedom but putting a mosque at place that was destroyed as a part of a extremist Muslim tactics is just insulting IMO. To be honest I think they are putting there on purpose just to mock the U.S.

Edit:

I'm cool with Muslim people as long as they aren't terrorist. In fact I wouldn't be bothered if a mosque was built on my street.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 4, 2010)

Leafblower29 said:


> I believe strongly in religious freedom but putting a mosque at place that was destroyed as a part of a extremist Muslim tactics is just insulting IMO. To be honest I think they are putting there on purpose just to mock the U.S.


 
So? If they're doing it to try and piss us off (which has ALREADY happened with a lot of people - terrorists already have a victory with that fact alone) let them do it - and then don't get pissed off.  The message that we should be sending is "Congratulations, you've exercised your rights as Americans.  Are we supposed to be impressed? You want a big blue ribbon or something? Enjoy your Islamic center, we've got more important things to be pissed about." Lack of antipathy towards the Islamic center takes wind out of the Taliban/Al-Qaeda/whatever radical Muslim fuckhead group's sails.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Tycho said:


> So? If they're doing it to try and piss us off (which has ALREADY happened with a lot of people - terrorists already have a victory with that fact alone) let them do it - and then don't get pissed off.  The message that we should be sending is "Congratulations, you've exercised your rights as Americans.  Are we supposed to be impressed? You want a big blue ribbon or something? Enjoy your Islamic center, we've got more important things to be pissed about." Lack of antipathy towards the Islamic center takes wind out of the Taliban/Al-Qaeda/whatever radical Muslim fuckhead group's sails.


 
Hey cool another opportunity to link this article (From Voice of America, no less!) to reinforce this very salient point


----------



## jeff (Sep 4, 2010)

Leafblower29 said:


> I believe strongly in religious freedom but putting a mosque at place that was destroyed as a part of a extremist Muslim tactics is just insulting IMO. To be honest I think they are putting there on purpose just to mock the U.S.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I'm cool with Muslim people as long as they aren't terrorist. In fact I wouldn't be bothered if a mosque was built on my street.


 
but you would be bothered if muslims in nyc built a cultural center on their street
i dont get it this shit is all samey


----------



## greg-the-fox (Sep 4, 2010)

One of the leaders of Al Queda said that they hope that it doesn't get built, and that the whole controversy stirred up by this just reinforces their hatred for America and they're getting more new recruits now than ever.

Great going guys.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

greg-the-fox said:


> One of the leaders of Al Queda said that they hope that it doesn't get built, and that the whole controversy stirred up by this just reinforces their hatred for America and they're getting more new recruits now than ever.
> 
> Great going guys.


 
"Seeeeee?  What were we telling you?  America says they aren't fighting a war with Islam, but look at its citizens and how they angrily protest a cultural center!  They can't so much as allow a pool or exercise room if it has anything to do with our religion!  Not only do they try to frame their "War on Terror" as a "War with Islam" out of hatred, they even hate Sufis trying to build bridges between you and the U.S. and try to deny them the "rights" they say they have!  So join up with us, if you're a follower of Islam you're a target of America, so you might as well fight back!"

but again since when have conservatives ever done anything that hasn't favored terrorists

EDIT: oh yeah another thing have you guys considered that this cultural center is a neighborhood thing i.e. for muslims that live IN THE AREA, and that the reality of new york city real estate is that the burlington coat factory lot may have been the only suitable and reasonably affordable place to put it within one subway line from where its targeted audience (as in the _local_ community) lives?  it's not a place where muslims around the country are supposed to make a pilgrimage and be preached to, it's a place to swim, exercise, eat, or pray to yourself.  That's not to say people aren't welcome to do so, whether or not they're Muslim, but come on.  That's like me flying over to San Francisco to stay at a YMCA, no matter how fun it is.  It's a Muslim YMCA in Lower Manhattan primarily for Muslims that _live in and around Lower Manhattan_.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 4, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> but again since when have conservatives ever done anything that hasn't favored terrorists


 
They like pissing other people off so that they feel validated in their "fuck the world, I'll take all y'all on with my MASSIVE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, GOD BLESS AMERICA" attitude.  They like fighting.  They like having an excuse to stamp out anyone who doesn't agree with their brand of bullshit, be it a protesting American civilian or an EVIL MUSLIM TERRORIST.  They get off on knowing that they have enough armaments and soldiers to make everyone in the world as miserable and combative as they are.  They are practically BEGGING Russia to re-start the Cold War in grand fashion.  Their aim is to make future generations' lives as much of a miserable war-torn poverty-stricken corporate megaconglomerate-dominated ideologically-polarized dystopia as fucking possible.  They're getting old and they're gonna die off and become irrelevant soon, BUT NOT BEFORE THEY LEAVE THEIR MARK UPON THE WORLD WITH THE SCARS OF HATRED AND STRIFE MARRING THE FACE OF THE FUCKING FREE WORLD, OR WHAT REMAINS OF IT AT LEAST.

EDIT: You know why they're so quick to pander to the religious right? Because religion can be one of the BEST tools in any warmonger's arsenal to divide, destroy and defile a planet.

EDIT 2: When they say they want to bomb someone back to the Dark Ages, it's because that's where their minds are still at.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

yeah but tycho if young/college republicans are any indication (or all the 18 year olds shouting "GOOGLE RON PAUL") the inevitable rebirth of conservative opposition may be even MORE shrill and selfish and stupid

they take the worst of conservatism they learned from their parents and refine it.  they're not old enough to know or care about Reagan in any sense other than "CONSERVATIVE HERO WHO PISSES OFF LIBERULS."  they know how to use computers for more than FW: Fw: FW: SCARY!!!! FW: fw: FW: RE: FW: OBONGO'S KENYAN BIRTH CERTIFICANT (WHRE IS IT).

it's almost like by not giving these idiots exactly what they wanted with McCain/Palin we can't prove once and for all just how damaging their policies and ideas really are.  their interpretation of the Laffer curve means that the government will have infinite income at 0% tax rates.  they can always say "well bush wasn't a TRUE conservative" or "we didn't get the chance to REALLY put our ideas of tax cuts and deregulation into place".

goddamn.


----------



## greg-the-fox (Sep 4, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> yeah but tycho if young/college republicans are any indication (or all the 18 year olds shouting "GOOGLE RON PAUL") the inevitable rebirth of conservative opposition may be even MORE shrill and selfish and stupid
> 
> they take the worst of conservatism they learned from their parents and refine it.  they're not old enough to know or care about Reagan in any sense other than "CONSERVATIVE HERO WHO PISSES OFF LIBERULS."  they know how to use computers for more than FW: Fw: FW: SCARY!!!! FW: fw: FW: RE: FW: OBONGO'S KENYAN BIRTH CERTIFICANT (WHRE IS IT).
> 
> ...


 
Being a conservative is a mental disorder.


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 4, 2010)

Wow, cool.  So as long as I disagree with you you'll keep blowing up?

LOLUMAD?


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Wow, cool.  So as long as I disagree with you you'll keep blowing up?
> 
> LOLUMAD?


 
nope

you're dumb but not particularly enraging

is the above your idea of 'blowing up'?  why are you getting so defensive about raping puppies?


----------



## greg-the-fox (Sep 4, 2010)

This thread is nothing more than a *NO U* fest


----------



## Attaman (Sep 4, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> Wow, cool.  So as long as I disagree with you *for reasons I neither can nor will provide support for* you'll keep blowing up?
> 
> LOLUMAD?


 
You accidentally omitted part of your post.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Sep 4, 2010)

Someone has to mention that Bobskunk's avatar is fucking disturbing.

Seriously. 

Clowns? Freaky as fuck.

Clowns with mouths open? Fucky as freak.

Clowns with mouths open being fed balls? Actually quite pleasant.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Someone has to mention that Bobskunk's avatar is fucking disturbing.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...


 
I can do much, much worse.  While still remaining safe-for-work/etc.


----------



## slydude851 (Sep 4, 2010)

The laws written down in the Constitution allows freedom of speech.  People have a given, fundamental right to freedom of religion as well as practices.  Despite this, there have been cases that there have been unconstitutional rulings against a tradition, namely, some Native American tribal traditions that involve smoking something to obtain a vision.  Is it a little close?  Possibly, but the Constitution gives them the right to so we can't entirely complain.

My opinion, I ok with it, not supportive, but ok with it, just because it is a place of worship and they have the basic right to do it.  Do I think it is a little close?  Not really no.  The person who bought the lot for the building is a realtor I believe and he bought it because it was a deserted apartment or hotel complex.  He did an interview on _60 Minutes_.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 4, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> Hey cool another opportunity to link this article (From Voice of America, no less!) to reinforce this very salient point


 
I just want to reiterate an earlier point I made, why the hell should we care what jihadists think about what we choose to do with our property?  Shouldn't we be able to build or not build something regardless of what a few religious nutjobs will think of it?  :V


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I just want to reiterate an earlier point I made, why the hell should we care what jihadists think about what we choose to do with our property?  Shouldn't we be able to build or not build something regardless of what a few religious nutjobs will think of it?  :V


 
it's more a matter of a) the guy isn't a problem b) the cultural center isn't a problem c) the propaganda value of preventing it from being built actively helps recruit more terrorists

it's not a "who cares" matter so long as there is a military presence in the middle east and even half the risk of another terrorist attack that we are supposed to believe/expect

basically it's like saying "why should i care what the hornet nest over there thinks." it's not about being sensitive to feelings of extremists, it's about mitigating risk.

by harassing people who aren't terrorists that are simply looking to build a cultural center on privately owned land, it gives a load of ammunition to people who actually ARE terrorists to use against this country

that is the very sentiment Imam Rauf has spent a lot of time and effort trying to combat- how can he be taken seriously in his word that america isn't trying to fight a war on their religion, when as a pro-american muslim speaker and leader is harassed for attempting to build something to benefit the nearby neighborhood?  that someone who tries to build cultural bridges is suspected as an extremist and a terrorist as soon as he's brought into a national spotlight?  come on


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 4, 2010)

Attaman said:


> You accidentally omitted part of your post.


 
True enough, but you could say the same for him.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 4, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> it's more a matter of a) the guy isn't a problem b) the cultural center isn't a problem c) the propaganda value of preventing it from being built actively helps recruit more terrorists
> 
> it's not a "who cares" matter so long as there is a military presence in the middle east and even half the risk of another terrorist attack that we are supposed to believe/expect
> 
> ...


 
I just find that the whole argument of bringing up how jihadists would take the building of this center is ultimately fruitless because you have just as many people going off on how some jihadists will see it as a victory if its built as well as others who will see it as islamaphobia.  Rauf's stated his goal for the center, the only muslims whose opinions we should take into consideration are those who might actually use the center, not those half a world away who are willing to bomb a mosque if the muslims practicing aren't subscribing to their brand of Islam.


----------



## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 4, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Someone has to mention that Bobskunk's avatar is fucking disturbing.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...


 
I find it suits his personality quite well.


----------



## Tycho (Sep 4, 2010)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Someone has to mention that Bobskunk's avatar is fucking disturbing.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...


 
It's the eyes. Good god, those EYES give me the creeps.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 4, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I just find that the whole argument of bringing up how jihadists would take the building of this center is ultimately fruitless because you have just as many people going off on how some jihadists will see it as a victory if its built as well as others who will see it as islamaphobia.  Rauf's stated his goal for the center, the only muslims whose opinions we should take into consideration are those who might actually use the center, not those half a world away who are willing to bomb a mosque if the muslims practicing aren't subscribing to their brand of Islam.


 
it doesn't matter if they see it as a victory or not- it's not about the people who would already try to set off a bomb in some crowded space.  it's about the people that don't feel that way, the ones that are being recruited to fight.  the important part is the people who haven't signed up for some extremist cause.  it's easier to prevent hatred than reverse it, after all, even if neither are particularly easy.

it's just another avenue of recruitment, just as abu ghraib was another such tool.  it only hurts us more, because however many bombs get dropped in these awful conflicts (often creating more enemies with every use) if you keep losing the regular person to hate, we'll all just fight until everyone's dead.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 5, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> it doesn't matter if they see it as a victory or not- it's not about the people who would already try to set off a bomb in some crowded space.  it's about the people that don't feel that way, the ones that are being recruited to fight.  the important part is the people who haven't signed up for some extremist cause.  it's easier to prevent hatred than reverse it, after all, even if neither are particularly easy.
> 
> it's just another avenue of recruitment, just as abu ghraib was another such tool.  it only hurts us more, because however many bombs get dropped in these awful conflicts (often creating more enemies with every use) if you keep losing the regular person to hate, we'll all just fight until everyone's dead.


 
That just seems like people are playing on the "what if" worst case scenario, much as the nay-sayers in this thread are doing.  It's like we're giving jihadists more credit than they're actually worth and I don't think allowing or disallowing a mosque to be built in NYC is going to change perceptions or make one more inclined to join Islamic terrorist groups to stick it to the US.

I mean, if we're going to go on this tangent of appeasing possible jihadists, then let's just outlaw same-sex marriage already, not allow women to wear clothing that reveals anything more than their faces, etc.

Point is, jihadists are going to find whatever reason they can to blow something up in the name of Allah, mostly because our Western Civilization doesn't conform to their traditional beliefs and values, and the more globalized this world becomes, the more "Western" we all become.  To take into consideration people possibly joining the Al-Qaedas of the world because of some real estate issues in New York would be legitimizing Islamic extremists' role in the world as some sort of international lobbyist, saying "You better not do this or that, otherwise we gonna get true believers to blow you up."

Whether or not there's a decision to stop the Park 51 project, I'd rather the reasoning be something localized without using the influence of terrorists as an excuse for what we do.


----------



## Mayfurr (Sep 5, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Point is, jihadists are going to find whatever reason they can to blow something up in the name of Allah, mostly because our Western Civilization doesn't conform to their traditional beliefs and values, and the more globalized this world becomes, the more "Western" we all become.  To take into consideration people possibly joining the Al-Qaedas of the world because of some real estate issues in New York would be legitimizing Islamic extremists' role in the world as some sort of international lobbyist, saying "You better not do this or that, otherwise we gonna get true believers to blow you up."



I think you're missing Bobskunk's point - as he has pointed out (as well as in the VoA article he linked to upthread), the whole "mosque" affair has already highlighted to the man in the Muslim street *another *huge stonkin' gulf between the words and deeds of the US when it comes to winning "hearts and minds" against the terrorists. In the same way that Abu Graib exposed the hypocritical underbelly of the US when it came to human rights (i.e. "it's not torture when _we_ do it"), the "mosque" affair is *already *proclaiming to those sitting on the fence in the Muslim world that a) religious freedom only applies to those of the "right" faith (i.e. Christian), and that the US is inherently hostile to Islam despite the words of its leaders from Bush to Obama. In other words, a _*"credibility gap"*_ that you could drop the former Twin Towers into without touching the sides - _which undoes all the work of the moderate types who are desperately trying to prove the opposite to their bretheren_.

Frankly, I think the damage is _already_ done, because the mythology of America being a "melting pot" for all regardless of race and creed has been well and truly exploded by all the "mosque" controversy.


----------



## Bobskunk (Sep 5, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> That just seems like people are playing on the "what if" worst case scenario, much as the nay-sayers in this thread are doing.  It's like we're giving jihadists more credit than they're actually worth and I don't think allowing or disallowing a mosque to be built in NYC is going to change perceptions or make one more inclined to join Islamic terrorist groups to stick it to the US.
> 
> I mean, if we're going to go on this tangent of appeasing possible jihadists, then let's just outlaw same-sex marriage already, not allow women to wear clothing that reveals anything more than their faces, etc.
> 
> ...


 
it's an auxiliary argument, another opportunity/cost to weigh in on.  park51 has the legal right to build where they planned and that should be enough, in and of itself.  please don't take "lol it emboldens the terrorists!!!" as a primary argument, or even much more than an aside to poke fun at the reactionary elements that hear "muslim" and piss their pants.  the controversy does still undermine rauf's efforts for peace.

that it became a controversy at all is just dumb.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 5, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> it's an auxiliary argument, another opportunity/cost to weigh in on.  park51 has the legal right to build where they planned and that should be enough, in and of itself.  please don't take "lol it emboldens the terrorists!!!" as a primary argument, or even much more than an aside to poke fun at the reactionary elements that hear "muslim" and piss their pants.  the controversy does still undermine rauf's efforts for peace.
> 
> that it became a controversy at all is just dumb.


 
Believe me I'm not taking this idea that not letting it be built = emboldens terrorists as the main argument here.  I've mentioned as have you plenty of other reasons why it shouldn't be stopped from being built.  I'm just questioning this one, as you call it, auxiliary argument because to me, in the grand scheme of things, this argument should hold as little weight on the project as possible, mostly because this project has nothing to do with jihadists and everything to do with the normal, hard working, tax-paying muslims so there's really no reason why we have to take their opinions and actions into consideration when we decide to build or not build something in this country. (sick run-on sentence)



			
				Mayfur said:
			
		

> I think you're missing Bobskunk's point - as he has pointed out (as well as in the VoA article he linked to upthread), the whole "mosque" affair has already highlighted to the man in the Muslim street another huge stonkin' gulf between the words and deeds of the US when it comes to winning "hearts and minds" against the terrorists. In the same way that Abu Graib exposed the hypocritical underbelly of the US when it came to human rights (i.e. "it's not torture when we do it"), the "mosque" affair is already proclaiming to those sitting on the fence in the Muslim world that a) religious freedom only applies to those of the "right" faith (i.e. Christian), and that the US is inherently hostile to Islam despite the words of its leaders from Bush to Obama. In other words, a "credibility gap" that you could drop the former Twin Towers into without touching the sides - which undoes all the work of the moderate types who are desperately trying to prove the opposite to their bretheren.



Well let's assume the mosque is built without any problems.  Assume then that these same tea party activists decide to picket outside the mosque then as disrespectful to the memory of 9/11.  Imagine your intolerant atheist engaging in conversation with these muslims about how ridiculous they find Islam.

The normal, everyday muslims in this country would probably think nothing of it.  The radical muslims would see this as blasphemy of the tallest order and would immediately cry out intolerance of the American people, that they should have no right to criticize Islam at this community center, or anywhere else.  The problem then arises with the First Amendment and the average American's right to criticize Islam.  I don't know where you stand religious-wise, but with how much criticism we give Christianity in this country, if Islam were to become more mainstream, they'd have to deal with the criticism, which is, in the Quran, punishable by death.

Does this not seem like yet another reason why radical jihadists would want to attack the US, strengthening the hearts and minds of disenchanted youths?  The very fact that America still holds some aspects of a melting pot of ideas both positive and negative and tolerance for other people is a perennial reason for these people to hate and possibly attack us, since the most radical of Muslims deal in a religion of intolerance.


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## Smelge (Sep 5, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> True enough, but you could say the same for him.


 
Actually, he is providing reasons for his views and backing them up. You're just going "THIS IS HOW I WANT IT TO BE" and ignoring any requests for anything to back yourself up. At the moment you are making yourself look like an uneducated tool with opinions based on what his politician of choice wants him to say.

Start thinking for yourself. If your convictions are your own, then say why rather than just blustering, and man the fuck up.


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## Lucy Bones (Sep 5, 2010)

Although I'm generally anti-religion, I do believe full-heartedly in the Muslims first amendment rights and such. They didn't attack on 9/11, Al Qaeda did. Just because Al Qaeda worked in their radical Islamic beliefs, all Muslims are being blamed. This is so fucked up. I mean, we don't blame Christians for the actions of the radical Ku Klux Klan.


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## Code Red (Sep 6, 2010)

This is stupid.  Did you not see what they did to us?  THEY ATTACKED US.

I still don't even...


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## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Sep 6, 2010)

[yt]ahVaxoN20E8[/yt]


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## Bobskunk (Sep 6, 2010)

Code Red said:


> This is stupid.  Did you not see what they did to us?  THEY ATTACKED US.
> 
> I still don't even...


 
you're stupid


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## greg-the-fox (Sep 6, 2010)

Code Red said:


> This is stupid.  Did you not see what they did to us?  THEY ATTACKED US.
> 
> I still don't even...


 
A billion muslims attacked us?


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## Xenke (Sep 6, 2010)

Code Red said:


> THEY


 
All are they. They is bad. All is bad.

Though really, I heard at one point (can't source, can't verify) that there's audience for the center there. But then again, I don't know the area/am not muslim so I couldn't tell you this from experience.


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## Slyck (Sep 6, 2010)

Code Red said:


> This is stupid.  Did you not see what they did to us?  THEY ATTACKED US.
> 
> I still don't even...


 XD


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## Code Red (Sep 6, 2010)

...and no one took the troll bait.  Awesome!


I still don't support the ground zero crap.  To me, It's like a slap in the face to america.


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## Bobskunk (Sep 6, 2010)

Code Red said:


> ...and no one took the troll bait.  Awesome!
> 
> 
> I still don't support the ground zero crap.  To me, It's like a slap in the face to america.


 
you're like a slap in the face to america


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Sep 6, 2010)

Easog said:


> [yt]ahVaxoN20E8[/yt]


 
If the government or anyone else actually cared about the memory of those people who died or the first responders, they would have passed that bill that gave medical aide to those who've become ill thanks to the dust and debris in the area.  Denying these heroes aide is more of a slap in the face than 10 mosques.

That ad is exploiting the event and the responders to keep us a "Christian nation".


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## Code Red (Sep 6, 2010)

Bobskunk said:


> you're like a slap in the face to america


 

Hey Bob, Triforce.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Sep 6, 2010)

Code Red said:


> ...and no one took the troll bait.  Awesome!



I've been reading FSTDT too long, I've been jaded I guess.


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## Commiecomrade (Sep 6, 2010)

Mayfurr said:


> Frankly, I think the damage is _already_ done, because the mythology of America being a "melting pot" for all regardless of race and creed has been well and truly exploded by all the "mosque" controversy.



There's tolerance of other races and creeds, and then there's respect for those killed. You make it seem so that we have to enslave ourselves to the minority to become tolerant.


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## Smelge (Sep 6, 2010)

Commiecomrade said:


> there's respect for those killed.


 
Say, how many people have died in Iraq now who have nothing to do with insurgents or terrorism? But once the country is stable, you can bet there'll soon be a McDonalds popping up nearby. Sure, respect for the dead is a good thing. But people are going on and on like this new community centre will have a balcony overlooking  the hole in the ground so they can masturbate over the parapet onto the remains of the fallen, rather than it being nowhere near the fucking thing.


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## Xenke (Sep 6, 2010)

Ok, back again, so I've done a measly amount of research, and this is what I've noticed:

1) It's not a mosque, unlike many people think. It's a community center. Why does it have to be a muslim community center? I don't know, seems kind of silly, especially since I've heard claims that it's actually open to people of all faiths.
2) There is a sizable muslim population in that area. In fact, I've heard that the mosque there doesn't have a big enough capacity to accommodate everyone. Cool beans.
3) Despite the fact the muslims keep claiming it's not a mosque, they keep saying the need it as a _place of worship_. THEN WHY AREN'T YOU BUILDING A MOSQUE?
4) People are still under estimating the effect 9/11 had on some people, saying things along the lines of "they shouldn't be so defensive about it anymore".
5) I think I muslim eatery would be cooler.


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## Eske (Sep 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> 3) Despite the fact the muslims keep claiming it's not a mosque, they keep saying the need it as a _place of worship_. THEN WHY AREN'T YOU BUILDING A MOSQUE?



Probably because the entirety of America has gone into a blood-spitting rage over a community center which happens to include small prayer room, let alone what might happen if it actually was a fully-fledged Mosque.


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## Xenke (Sep 6, 2010)

Eske said:


> Probably because the entirety of America has gone into a blood-spitting rage over a community center which happens to include small prayer room, let alone what might happen if it actually was a fully-fledged Mosque.


 
I would have supported a mosque.

It's more to the point.

And besides, they'll still need to build another mosque. I seem them having difficulties after this.


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## Eske (Sep 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> I would have supported a mosque.
> 
> It's more to the point.



Wait, you "would have" supported a mosque?  

As in, you don't condone a community center which provides a safe haven for the local youth and happens to also include a prayer room for those of Muslim faith, but you would condone a building dedicated _solely _to Muslim worship? 

That seems a bit backwards, but I'm hoping that's not what you meant.



Xenke said:


> And besides, they'll still need to build another mosque. I seem them  having difficulties after this.



They're not building a Mosque -- that's the entire point.  They need a community center, so that's what they're building.  

That's why this whole thing is so stupid. 

New York is in desperate need of more places such as this.  It can be a rough, rough place to be -- and there are very few places (barring uptown locations) where you can go to find shelter.  From what I've seen of New York, there is no doubt in my mind that this center is needed, whether it is 'marketed' toward those of Muslim faith (which makes sense, as it is in a densely populated Muslim area, as you pointed out) or not.


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## Spectral0 (Sep 6, 2010)

I vote no. I'm against all formal religion [read: politics] and out of those religions, muslim one is the most violent one. So, they deserve to be butthurt by not having a center there.


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## Smelge (Sep 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> 1) It's not a mosque, unlike many people think. It's a community center.


Holy fucking shit?!? Really?!? W


> Why does it have to be a muslim community center? I don't know, seems kind of silly, especially since I've heard claims that it's actually open to people of all faiths.


Because you've "heard" things. Say, why don't you try dressing as a stereotypical Muslim, then go stay a few nights at your local YMCA. See how long you survive before all your shit is stolen and you get beaten for being a terrorist. Go on. I dare you. No? That's why they need a community centre, because apparently Muslims are terrible because they don't integrate into the community, but a building specifically for integrating muslims into the community is an evil terrormosque.


> 2) There is a sizable muslim population in that area. In fact, I've heard that the mosque there doesn't have a big enough capacity to accommodate everyone. Cool beans.


Oh shit, too many for their Mosque? TOO MANY MUSLIMS! OH MY GOD THEY ARE TAKING OVER! hey, did you know that they did 9/11 to lower property prices in the area so they could build a terrormosque? True fact. I saw it on Fox.


> 3) Despite the fact the muslims keep claiming it's not a mosque, they keep saying the need it as a _place of worship_. THEN WHY AREN'T YOU BUILDING A MOSQUE?


Hey, have you ever gone to the airport? Flown somewhere? You know they have prayer rooms there too? Holy shit, the airport is a mosque/church/chapel/buddhist temple.


> 4) People are still under estimating the effect 9/11 had on some people, saying things along the lines of "they shouldn't be so defensive about it anymore".


Yet it's funny how the people in NYC where pretty much everyone was involved that day seem ok with the idea. But you know, they shouldn't be feeling complacent in their own city, it's still important to all those millions of people in the US who _was totally going to probably maybe visit the place on that very day and they are only just alive by the mere coincidence that they live 3000 miles away, but it was so nearly them in that tower dude._


> 5) I think I muslim eatery would be cooler.


 You are aware that "Muslim food" encompasses about half the food in the fucking world? Holy shit, Thai food is Muslim! Shit! They've been terrorising your palette all this time.

Can you please do some actual fucking research. If it's as important as everyone seems to think it is, they need to do their own research rather than "I know this because tv tells me it's true".



Spectral0 said:


> I vote no. I'm against all formal religion [read: politics] and out of those religions, muslim one is the most violent one. So, they deserve to be butthurt by not having a center there.


 
Hey, this is very true. It's not like you saw us Christians going on a bloody rampage through the Middle East hundreds of years ago, trying to reclaim the Holy Land by murdering the shit out of everyone with funny coloured skin or accents.

You want a violent religion, go have a look at Buddhists. Nasty fuckers they are. Preach enlightenment and peace, yeah? So why do they all do the most deadly forms of combat on the planet. Some of those fuckers can punch you so your kidneys come out your nose.


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## Bobskunk (Sep 6, 2010)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> If the government or anyone else actually cared about the memory of those people who died or the first responders, they would have passed that bill that gave medical aide to those who've become ill thanks to the dust and debris in the area.  Denying these heroes aide is more of a slap in the face than 10 mosques.
> 
> That ad is exploiting the event and the responders to keep us a "Christian nation".


 
It was the Republicans that blocked it, on the grounds that it might pay for treatment of non-citizens (or worse, *ullegul immugrunts*_!!!_) and that it pays for itself by closing corporate tax loopholes that allow multinational corporations to avoid paying tax on income earned in the United States (as in purposely incorporating in Vanuatu or something for tax reasons yet performing most/all your business in real offices in the U.S.)

It's not like the Democrats didn't _try_ it's just that the Senate is such a shitty institution with rules that simply do not fit with a minority party that seeks only to abuse the bylaws, extract concessions and water things down, and vote no anyway.  yet, they still take credit for shit that passes when it turns out to work great for their constituents *and those dummies eat it up*

EDIT: tl;dr death to america


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## Xenke (Sep 6, 2010)

Smelge said:


> things


 
Jesus christ you don't even live here. (not that it makes your opinions invalid)

I'm sorry I'm not being as racist as you'd like me to be, so you have to paint me as one.


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## Smelge (Sep 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Jesus christ you don't even live here. (not that it makes your opinions invalid)
> 
> I'm sorry I'm not being as racist as you'd like me to be, so you have to paint me as one.


 
Well, you've just typed a load of shite that sort of makes it sound like it.

No, I don't live there, but you Americans seem to be causing a fuss over nothing for a little bit of political power. And it's common knowledge that when you lot fuck up, it gets passed on to everyone else who is friends with your nation. Besides, it boils down to "your constitution says they can, so shut the fuck up". It's ok to exercise your rights when you want to run around and shoot people, but when someone wants to help a minority group they should have their rights taken away?

Fuck off.


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## Xenke (Sep 6, 2010)

Whatever.

Next time instead of finding articles written NY muslims, reading them, and taking in their meaning I'll just link some bullshit right-wing extremist crap.


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## Smelge (Sep 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Whatever.
> 
> Next time instead of finding articles written NY muslims, reading them, and taking in their meaning I'll just link some bullshit right-wing extremist crap.


 
Oh. So you'll be living the American Dream then?


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## Slyck (Sep 6, 2010)

Smelge said:


> Oh. So you'll be living the American Dream then?


 Yes. That is why people come to America. To bask in our unrivaled personal freedom and overwhelming opportunities.


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## Nyloc (Sep 6, 2010)

Slyck said:


> Yes. That is why people come to America. To bask in our unrivaled personal freedom and overwhelming opportunities.


 
I see...

...what you did there.

Someone needs to turn up to one of the rallies playing this:

[video=youtube;XRGd0gD0QNE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRGd0gD0QNE[/video]

Job done, no more arguments, everyone would just hug and go home.


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## ShearedSheep (Sep 6, 2010)

I support the right for any religion to build a place of worship anywhere they want. That's what makes this country great, and ground zero is not holy ground. And even if it were. it's not like they want to build the Mosque on ground zero. It's two blocks away. Live and let live I say. But what does a sheep know?


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## Mayfurr (Sep 7, 2010)

Commiecomrade said:


> There's tolerance of other races and creeds, and then there's respect for those killed.


 
If it's just "respect for those killed" and it's nothing to do with the fact the community centre is being built/operated by Muslims, _then why the fuck is it *not *"disrespectful" to build a entire *skyscraper * (complete with offices, shops etc) on this so-called "hallowed ground"?_ 

Surely it's more "respectful" to turn Ground Zero into a grassed memorial park instead of sticking another commercial building on what could be considered a mass grave?
And if Ground Zero is so sacred, why not flatten everything around it for a two block radius (including the bars, strip clubs etc) as a mark of respect for the dead?

You state: _You make it seem so that we have to enslave ourselves to the minority to become tolerant. _

I ask: *Why should the minority enslave themselves to the majority?*

It's somewhat disappointing that after all the chest-thumping by Americans of how diverse and tolerant and respectful of others they are, when the rubber hits the road the principle of "all men are created equal" gets dumped faster than a burger wrapper.


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## Endless Humiliation (Sep 7, 2010)

americuns show thier respect for religoush freedumb

OBAMA:

With a middle name HUSSAIN


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## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 7, 2010)

Slyck said:


> Yes. That is why people come to America. To bask in our unrivaled personal freedom and overwhelming opportunities.


 
We've come a long way...  if this were Europe in the middle ages people would be getting their heads lopped off for proposing to build a mosque.  


Controversy >>>>>>>>>> consensus.


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## Smelge (Sep 7, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> We've come a long way...  if this were Europe in the middle ages people would be getting their heads lopped off for proposing to build a mosque.
> Controversy >>>>>>>>>> consensus.


 
I think that the middle-ages scenario is preferable.

They are setting up in a country that is Christian, has no laws about freedom of religion or personal liberties. If they set up, they might get their heads cut off, but it's simple and direct and honest.

The current situation, is that they've been promised the irght to practice their religion, they've been given rights, and people are trying to deny them that due to political designs from certain media corporations and Christian Extremist groups that are happy to be nice to them when it suits their plans, but will turn around and stab them in the back the second it can be twisted to their advantage.

At least in the Middle Ages scenario what they saw is what they got, and there was no double-dealing and scaremongering to try and influence elections.


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## Fenrir Lupus (Sep 7, 2010)

Smelge said:


> I think that the middle-ages scenario is preferable.
> 
> They are setting up in a country that is Christian, has no laws about freedom of religion or personal liberties. If they set up, they might get their heads cut off, but it's simple and direct and honest.
> 
> ...


 
True, but it's a bit less brutal when the worst people are legally allowed to do is protest your actions and distribute propaganda supporting their agenda.


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## Smelge (Sep 7, 2010)

Fenrir Lupus said:


> True, but it's a bit less brutal when the worst people are legally allowed to do is protest your actions and distribute propaganda supporting their agenda.


 
Really? You're at a point where people are getting slashed because they might be Muslims. When you've been told you are allowed to live somewhere with rights to protect you, the last thing you should be doing is having to fear for your safety because of some idiots trying to sway political opinion with fearmongering. This is brutal. Just killing them in the Middle Ages is something that would have been half expected, so yes it would have been nasty, but it'd be quick and they'd know it.


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## PenningtontheSkunk (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm American and voted yes on the support of the mosque because I (in my opinion) find it dumb to hate on people that have a different religion regardless. Free here has become such an understatement. -.-


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