# Emulate Windows on Linux?



## Magnus (Jul 9, 2008)

Is it possible to emulate windows xp on suse linux for example? i like the touch of suse, it really works like i want to, it also looks good and its quite save but applications and games don't really work, quite obvious but still, now i don't want Wine to emulate certain programs, (hoping they work as they should) i want something like VMWare, stable as possible, i know i won't be able to run games on its finest but thats ok, this computer is more for backup and graphic purposes~

anyone know something about this?


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## ArielMT (Jul 10, 2008)

If you have a Windows install CD, the answer is pretty much yes.  You can use an emulator such as VMWare or VirtualBox.  Wikipedia has a half-decent comparison of VMs, a few of which run on Linux as the host OS.


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## Pi (Jul 10, 2008)

Magnus said:


> Is it possible to emulate windows xp on suse linux for example? i like the touch of suse, it really works like i want to, it also looks good and its quite save but applications and games don't really work, quite obvious but still, now i don't want Wine to emulate certain programs, (hoping they work as they should) i want something like VMWare, stable as possible, i know i won't be able to run games on its finest but thats ok, this computer is more for backup and graphic purposes~
> 
> anyone know something about this?



You're really better off dual-booting. VMWare's graphics drivers for the guest OS are a little sluggish.


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## Magnus (Jul 10, 2008)

Pi said:


> You're really better off dual-booting. VMWare's graphics drivers for the guest OS are a little sluggish.



then i'd be rebooting every time O_O


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## Ceceil Felias (Jul 10, 2008)

There's always running Wine with the original Windows DLLs if you want the most compatibility out of emulation. Granted, it requires having Windows to take the DLLs from, it's not exactly as legal, and there's a whole slew of issues that can come out of it if you're not careful and experienced, buuut...

To be honest, though, the virtual machine would be the way to go if you don't want to reboot to switch between Windows and Linux sessions.


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## Tachyon (Jul 10, 2008)

If your hardware supports it, you could try something like kvm, and run Windows itself within Linux. I've only played around with it very briefly, but it seems cool.

I don't think you're going to have much luck in the graphics department, though. As far as I know, all emulation or virtualisation options have pretty lowest-common-denominator graphics drivers. Depending on what you mean when you say "graphics", Wine might really be your best bet.


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## Adrimor (Jul 10, 2008)

Heh--I was actually just trying to use Wine, myself...so I guess I'll butt into this discussion...

My dad pointed out to me once--and I've just confirmed this myself--that Wine doesn't always handle installer programs right. So...no running Ventrilo in Linux for me, it seems...

Anyone else notice that?

Otherwise, though, it seems quite reliable--I haven't had a problem with it otherwise.

This kvm of which you speak seems interesting as well...but does it require logging into a KDE session to be run properly? I'd look into it myself, but your post implies that it has pretty stringent minimum hardware requirements, and my machine's a little past the line of obsolescence...though it still works...

Also, never run a virus sweep in the middle of a summer day when your house is known for having a circuit-breaker that trips at the slightest provocation. It will utterly destroy your Windows bootloader--and quite possibly your Linux one. Though, had that not occurred, I'd still be in Windows all the time...

Okay, I'll end the post now before it gets even more rambling. Huzzah for learning of the presence of fellow Linux users! (I'm still a n00b here ^_^;


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## Magnus (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm quite new to this stuff too, though its very interesting to learn. i'll be looking into this KVM more. 

i have an Asus P5K-E mobo, intel Q6600 quadcore cpu, 8800GTS Alpha dog edition and 2 500Gb hard drives, (sata) no raid cause one of the hdd's is sadly a Maxthor -.- (don't kill me, i got it for free)

I take it that this (newer) hardware is supported ?


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## TG. (Jul 10, 2008)

http://www.vmware.com/products/player/


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## TheGreatCrusader (Jul 10, 2008)

Ceceil Felias said:


> There's always running Wine with the original Windows DLLs if you want the most compatibility out of emulation. Granted, it requires having Windows to take the DLLs from, it's not exactly as legal, and there's a whole slew of issues that can come out of it if you're not careful and experienced, buuut...
> 
> To be honest, though, the virtual machine would be the way to go if you don't want to reboot to switch between Windows and Linux sessions.


Wine is the most reliable software that I have experianced. It works very well with applications in games, but I'm not sure about entire OS's.


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## makmakmob (Jul 10, 2008)

I know you can run some _fairly_ new games with just wine.


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## Runefox (Jul 10, 2008)

A coworker of mine is a big Linux head, and he has an IBM T41 laptop (not very modern by any stretch) running Slackware with Sun's newly-acquired xVM VirtualBox. Running in it is a Windows XP install that, by all measures, runs _faster_ than Windows XP running natively on the machine. It also gives him the ability, through Seamless Mode, to integrate the guest OS into his desktop rather than running it inside a window, meaning that it's pretty much excellent.

Your motherboard and CPU should support native virtualization, which should let this run even faster, and yes, they should be supported. However, your video card won't be brought over as of yet. Gaming is more or less in its infancy there... However, applications will work flawlessly, perhaps better than with Windows.

For games, the best thing you can do is try out Cedega. It's actually quite good, but then, so is WINE.


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## Magnus (Jul 10, 2008)

Runefox said:


> A coworker of mine is a big Linux head, and he has an IBM T41 laptop (not very modern by any stretch) running Slackware with Sun's newly-acquired xVM VirtualBox. Running in it is a Windows XP install that, by all measures, runs _faster_ than Windows XP running natively on the machine. It also gives him the ability, through Seamless Mode, to integrate the guest OS into his desktop rather than running it inside a window, meaning that it's pretty much excellent.
> 
> Your motherboard and CPU should support native virtualization, which should let this run even faster, and yes, they should be supported. However, your video card won't be brought over as of yet. Gaming is more or less in its infancy there... However, applications will work flawlessly, perhaps better than with Windows.
> 
> For games, the best thing you can do is try out Cedega. It's actually quite good, but then, so is WINE.



interesting, i have a gaming laptop so i'm not that much interested in gaming on the pc (its still always nice to do so) but if the above works on my pc then i'd be a very happy person <3


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## Runefox (Jul 10, 2008)

It should work just fine, and best of all, it's open source, cross-platform, and totally free. =D

http://www.virtualbox.org/attachment/wiki/Screenshots/VirtualBox_OSX_beta_3.png is an example of what I mean by "Seamless Mode", running XP under Mac OS X as though it were part of the normal desktop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Virtualbox15seamless.png is a shot of it running in Seamless Mode under Ubuntu.

It's also incredibly easy to set up and manage your virtual machines. =D I used to run a Win95 VM. It was fast.


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## Magnus (Jul 10, 2008)

Runefox said:


> It should work just fine, and best of all, it's open source, cross-platform, and totally free. =D
> 
> http://www.virtualbox.org/attachment/wiki/Screenshots/VirtualBox_OSX_beta_3.png is an example of what I mean by "Seamless Mode", running XP under Mac OS X as though it were part of the normal desktop.
> 
> ...



so if i were to install OSX on my pc i could run windows XP on it? that would be pretty cool, and i'd have less problems with viruses and spyware <3


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## Runefox (Jul 10, 2008)

Yeah, if you could get OS X to install and work happily with your hardware, you'd be able to do that just the same as with Linux, though I'm led to believe that it is a beta right now for the OS X platform. I'm personally a lot more partial to Linux, but that's because I'm used to its nuances. I'd be like a fish out of water under Mac OS. Until I launch a terminal, that is. Then it's more or less the same. =D

Though, I have to say that installing OS X on non-Apple hardware is considered a breech of the Apple TOS/EULA/etc, and is, arguably, a legal gray area which may or may not be appropriate for the forum.


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## net-cat (Jul 10, 2008)

Huh. I just installed VirtualBox.

Other than the fact that it lacks x64 Guest support and Seamless Mode needs some work, I'm liking it.


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## Runefox (Jul 10, 2008)

Yeah, it's meant as an x86 virtual machine, though I would say x64 will come at some point in the future. Seamless mode is a newer feature, but I find it works rather well for most applications.

As an added bonus, it sports a built-in RDP server, so you can remotely connect to the machine from elsewhere using an RDP/TS client (from the BIOS up to the OS), which is rather awesome. Though I have to admit, when I tried the RDP bit tonight, it isn't working as well as it was back a year ago.


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## Magnus (Jul 10, 2008)

ah yeah, i forgot about the legal stuff for a moment, so. any Linux recommend? i like SUSE a lot though if others work better with VirtualBox i'd he happy to take those.


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## Runefox (Jul 10, 2008)

SUSE is fine, though RPM can be a bit of a nightmare to manage, one of the reasons I stay away from Redhat-based distros and go with things based around Debian (because "apt-get install firefox" is the easiest, sexiest way to install Firefox, ever). That said, SUSE is probably the best of the RPM-based distros for that sort of thing. Mandriva is pretty good, too, but when I tried that last, it was rather bloated and took forever and a day to boot. Might be fixed now, though.

A few others come to mind...

Ubuntu is a popular choice that's pretty easy to use and which is still very powerful. I'd highly recommend it for first-timers or anyone, really, since it's extremely easy to use and generally quite fast, with a great support forum+wiki. If you don't like the GNOME desktop, you can use Kubuntu, which is the same thing but with a KDE desktop by default. You can still install any other desktop manager you like, regardless of the version you use.

Well, then there's Slackware, which has a very religious following of people resistent to change, and who won't use anything but the most stable versions of software available. ... Which tends to mean that nothing generally crashes.  I don't use it, myself.

You could also go for Gentoo, not that I'd recommend it, if you were willing to sit through a multiple-day install procedure to get the most blazing fast operating system you can get onto your PC (Gentoo compiles everything from source specifically for your PC). One of the biggest pluses for Gentoo is... Well, like Ubuntu, its support forum and wiki. Nearly anything you can think of is discussed there, and many issues not specific to Gentoo are found on there, as well. Another plus is its package management. "emerge firefox" will download Firefox's source, the source to everything Firefox needs, compile it and install it automatically. Too bad it takes a long, long time to do so.


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## Eevee (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm kinda astounded that nobody has asked the obvious question of _what the OP is trying to accomplish_.  "Run Windows inside Linux" is a solution, not a problem.

If you are, for example, trying to host an entire virtual Windows XP just to run Office or something then this entire thread is irrelevant.



AdriNoMa said:


> My dad pointed out to me once--and I've just confirmed this myself--that Wine doesn't always handle installer programs right. So...no running Ventrilo in Linux for me, it seems...


What?  I installed Ventrilo with no problem.  I don't remember doing anything special.


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## Magnus (Jul 11, 2008)

Eevee said:


> I'm kinda astounded that nobody has asked the obvious question of _what the OP is trying to accomplish_.  "Run Windows inside Linux" is a solution, not a problem.
> 
> If you are, for example, trying to host an entire virtual Windows XP just to run Office or something then this entire thread is irrelevant.



Office is one of the programs yes, although open office is an even better solution, the main reason is actually that i tend to screw up my windows a lot, viruses. replacing files that goes wrong, etc, its the kind of person i am, i like playing with windows on a visual way. 

now if my main OS would be Linux then crashing, viruses, spyware, safety would be all on a lower level, or even not to worry about. 

it may sound really stupid, but it sure is what keeps interested and willing to learn things.


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## Adrimor (Jul 11, 2008)

Eevee said:


> What?  I installed Ventrilo with no problem.  I don't remember doing anything special.



Hmm. What distro are you using? I'm in Ubuntu Studio 8.04, and Wine told me my install was corrupt when I tried to run the Ventrilo installer...

Of course, it could just be the file...it's on one of my Windows parts...which, while it was only the C drive that got whacked (and the installer was on E), makes such a thing a distinct possibility.

Meh. I'll try getting it again in the meantime.


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## net-cat (Jul 11, 2008)

Ah.

It should be noted that Ubuntu/Debian's Wine packages suck ass and are updated roughly once every six months (in the case of Ubuntu.)

Use the packages provided by Wine, instead.

http://www.winehq.org/site/download-deb

Also, it may seem counter-intuitive, don't try to run your programs from an NTFS or FAT32 partition in Wine. Use a partition with a filesystem that is [a] fully supported by your OS (i/e: not NTFS) and * not braindead (i/e: not FAT32). 

(HL2 games are an example of programs that fail miserably when run from NTFS or FAT32.)*


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## Eevee (Jul 11, 2008)

Magnus said:


> the main reason is actually that i tend to screw up my windows a lot, viruses. replacing files that goes wrong, etc, its the kind of person i am, i like playing with windows on a visual way.


...great, but why do you need Windows in the first place?



Magnus said:


> now if my main OS would be Linux then crashing, viruses, spyware, safety would be all on a lower level, or even not to worry about.


Apparently you have never broken Linux.  8)



AdriNoMa said:


> Hmm. What distro are you using? I'm in Ubuntu Studio 8.04, and Wine told me my install was corrupt when I tried to run the Ventrilo installer...
> 
> Of course, it could just be the file...it's on one of my Windows parts...which, while it was only the C drive that got whacked (and the installer was on E), makes such a thing a distinct possibility.


Ubuntu 8.04.  I grabbed the installer from Ventrilo's site, though.  Or maybe I used wine-doors?  It was a while ago.


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## Magnus (Jul 11, 2008)

Eevee said:


> ...great, but why do you need Windows in the first place?
> 
> 
> Apparently you have never broken Linux.  8)




Windows is easy to use, and most software i have is windows only, and no, i wouldn't know how to screw up linux ._.


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## Eevee (Jul 11, 2008)

_What software?_

And if you think Windows is easier to use, why are you not either using Windows or asking for help with Linux?


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## Magnus (Jul 11, 2008)

Eevee said:


> _What software?_
> 
> And if you think Windows is easier to use, why are you not either using Windows or asking for help with Linux?



i almost get the intention that your forcing me to use only one OS


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## Eevee (Jul 11, 2008)

Because running one inside another is a convoluted and inefficient solution that may not be at all necessary for whatever problem you are actually having  :V


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## Magnus (Jul 11, 2008)

Learning purposes :>


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## Adrimor (Jul 11, 2008)

net-cat said:


> Ah.
> 
> It should be noted that Ubuntu/Debian's Wine packages suck ass and are updated roughly once every six months (in the case of Ubuntu.)
> 
> ...


*

Ah! Yep, that'd explain it, all right ^_^; Grazie!

Hmm. Maybe that's also why some PS1 games are giving me problems when I run them on Linux in PCSX...I keep them on my FAT32 "shared" partition...even though I've had zero luck getting the Windows PCSX to run...or any other PS emulator there....well, it's worth looking into! Thank you for the new bit of information. May you find all your meals and endeavors pleasant and/or otherwise enjoyable for the next 30 months.*


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## TheGreatCrusader (Jul 11, 2008)

Magnus said:


> Learning purposes :>


Learning real well, thar. You'll learn much more if you use the OS like it was designed and emulate programs on WINE rather than emulating an entire OS.


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## Magnus (Jul 11, 2008)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> Learning real well, thar. You'll learn much more if you use the OS like it was designed and emulate programs on WINE rather than emulating an entire OS.



hostin an entire OS is awesome, its cool to play with windows~


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## TheGreatCrusader (Jul 11, 2008)

Magnus said:


> hostin an entire OS is awesome, its cool to play with windows~


What would be the point if there is a more practical solution that is much more simple?


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## Magnus (Jul 11, 2008)

i wont be bored cause i'm learning something i like, its fun, it can be handy, 

and i like the idea of running windows on linux, its possibe so i take that chance. i don't really need a reason tho i do have a lot.


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## net-cat (Jul 11, 2008)

AdriNoMa said:


> Ah! Yep, that'd explain it, all right ^_^; Grazie!


Yeah, I had a ball trying to get HL2 to work on the old-ass Wine included with Ubuntu.



AdriNoMa said:


> Hmm. Maybe that's also why some PS1 games are giving me problems when I run them on Linux in PCSX...I keep them on my FAT32 "shared" partition...even though I've had zero luck getting the Windows PCSX to run...or any other PS emulator there....well, it's worth looking into! Thank you for the new bit of information. May you find all your meals and endeavors pleasant and/or otherwise enjoyable for the next 30 months.


Possibly.

Wine works by mapping Windows API calls to underlying POSIX/X/whatever calls. But Linux's NTFS drivers are kind of a hack and FAT32 is braindead. In either case, the result is the same. Some functions that Wine translates to Unix are epically broken when they're called on FAT32 and NTFS partitions.

Theoretically, you could be having the same sorts of issues.

Also, Wine, like many other 3D-enabled apps, goes into conniptions when used on a 3D app with Compiz. That could also be your issue with the PS1 emulator, as well.


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## Runefox (Jul 12, 2008)

ntfs-3g seems pretty good to me.  And FAT32 shouldn't really have any trouble; It should perform about as well, in my experience, as EXT2. I haven't heard of anything breaking just because it's on a FAT32/NTFS partition, but then I haven't tried to run Steam on one.

But anyway, yeah, the point is, there are some programs that Windows has that Linux has no analogue to, or whose analogue is less intuitive to use (no GUI) or simply is so different that it takes a lot of getting used to when you really need to get something done (which is why I use WINE to run Paint Shop Pro 7 instead of buckling down and using the GIMP). Sometimes it's just easier to run the program for Windows, and sometimes WINE just doesn't do the job (I think newer versions of Photoshop (beyond 7) is an example). Running Windows XP under VirtualBox in Seamless Mode basically equates to WINE on steroids if your processor/motherboard supports virtualization, which those do. The only drawback is extra RAM/HDD consumption and the need for a proper Windows license. WINE is a more elegant solution when it works, but it doesn't always work. For the things that don't, a virtual machine works wonders.

As for 3D+Compiz, most often Compiz doesn't really do anything to them, really. My laptop (with an Intel Extreme Graphics 2 (845GM) chipset) has no trouble running 3D apps with Compiz. The only thing it has trouble with are hardware overlays (videos) with Compiz when effects are applied over the video (drop shadows) or to the video's window (wobbly windows or transparency). I guess your mileage may vary depending on your hardware and drivers, though any nVidia or ATi card should work the same with their binary drivers installed.


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## net-cat (Jul 12, 2008)

Runefox said:


> ntfs-3g seems pretty good to me.


Oh, it's fine for what it does. It allows you to read and write NTFS partitions from within any OS that supports it. Still doesn't change the fact that it only implements a subset of Linux's VFS functionality, and that can cause issues in some applications. It also only implements a subset of NTFS functionality, although that's less of an issue as most people don't do wild and crazy things in NTFS. (Sparse files, EFS, hardlinks, etc.)



Runefox said:


> And FAT32 shouldn't really have any trouble; It should perform about as well, in my experience, as EXT2.


No. FAT32 is built for sequential reads. This is fine for things that are read sequentially, like music or movies. But when you have a file that is access randomly, like a database or an ISO image, FAT32 will fall flat on its face compared to any modern filesystem. (ext2/3, ufs, ntfs, etc)

(That's not to say FAT32 doesn't have its uses. Because it's such a simple filesystem that's fairly trivial to implement, you see it on a lot of embedded devices.)



Runefox said:


> But anyway, yeah, the point is, there are some programs that Windows has that Linux has no analogue to, or whose analogue is less intuitive to use (no GUI) or simply is so different that it takes a lot of getting used to when you really need to get something done (which is why I use WINE to run Paint Shop Pro 7 instead of buckling down and using the GIMP). Sometimes it's just easier to run the program for Windows, and sometimes WINE just doesn't do the job (I think newer versions of Photoshop (beyond 7) is an example). Running Windows XP under VirtualBox in Seamless Mode basically equates to WINE on steroids if your processor/motherboard supports virtualization, which those do. The only drawback is extra RAM/HDD consumption and the need for a proper Windows license. WINE is a more elegant solution when it works, but it doesn't always work. For the things that don't, a virtual machine works wonders.


Oh, I'm well aware of this. One of the reasons I installed VirtualBox in the first place is that Altera's Quartus II Web Version fails miserably under Wine. (There is a version for Linux, but it costs $2500.)

And GIMP, while it has improved greatly over the years, is still a ways off from being a Photoshop killer. 



Runefox said:


> As for 3D+Compiz, most often Compiz doesn't really do anything to them, really. My laptop (with an Intel Extreme Graphics 2 (845GM) chipset) has no trouble running 3D apps with Compiz. The only thing it has trouble with are hardware overlays (videos) with Compiz when effects are applied over the video (drop shadows) or to the video's window (wobbly windows or transparency). I guess your mileage may vary depending on your hardware and drivers, though any nVidia or ATi card should work the same with their binary drivers installed.


Yeah, most 3D apps don't have a problem with Compiz. Some do. Wine running HL2 games, for instance. (Although I haven't tried it with "minimal" effects.


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## Eevee (Jul 12, 2008)

I've had no problems with Compiz effects on a TF2 window, and my effects are far from minimal.


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## net-cat (Jul 12, 2008)

Could be any number of things, I guess.

DX 8.1 support (required for Portal)
ATI binary drivers (as opposed to nVidia)

But yeah, it's unplayable for me if I leave Compiz on.


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## Adrimor (Jul 13, 2008)

net-cat said:


> Wine works by mapping Windows API calls to underlying POSIX/X/whatever calls. But Linux's NTFS drivers are kind of a hack and FAT32 is braindead. In either case, the result is the same. Some functions that Wine translates to Unix are epically broken when they're called on FAT32 and NTFS partitions.
> 
> Theoretically, you could be having the same sorts of issues.
> 
> Also, Wine, like many other 3D-enabled apps, goes into conniptions when used on a 3D app with Compiz. That could also be your issue with the PS1 emulator, as well.



Don't use Compiz (AFAIK), I have the latest PCSX version--1.818, which has been compiled specifically for Linux and packaged for Debian-based distros--and I moved the ROM to my Linux drive...still no dice.

Ah, well--I'll figure it out...or, failing that, ask on the proper forum ;P Thanks for your time, people who answered me, and thank you to the TC and any mods here for allowing me to ask my own stuff in this thread.

Well, I'm-a go try to remember my password for the Ubuntu forums. Cheers to all.


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## net-cat (Jul 13, 2008)

AdriNoMa said:


> Don't use Compiz (AFAIK),


Actually, if you have video drivers that _can_ use Compiz, Ubuntu enables it by default. (Albeit in minimal effect mode.)

System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Visual Effects

Change to "None"

If it's already at "None," try changing to to normal and seeing if it takes. If it doesn't that means your video driver isn't supporting 3D acceleration, for whatever reason. That would explain your PCSX problem.


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## Adrimor (Jul 13, 2008)

net-cat said:


> Actually, if you have video drivers that _can_ use Compiz, Ubuntu enables it by default. (Albeit in minimal effect mode.)
> 
> System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Visual Effects
> 
> ...



Hmm. It's only when I try to do the first hyper art in Legend of Legaia, though...everything else works just fine.

...although...that's the only 3D game I play with it (unless Persona counts)...so...

I'll give it a shot, but I kept Compiz off 'cuz my computer's not exactly the fastest. Hopefully it doesn't go belly-up...


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

It could also be not related to the OS at all, and might be a configuration issue with a plugin. There are differences between the plugins across Windows and Linux, and you should check your configs there to ensure that your video settings are appropriate for your computer to handle.


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## Ash-Fox (Jul 15, 2008)

I would recommend using Crossover Linux over Wine.

Unrelated note: I think Runefox's avatar is cute.


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## Eevee (Jul 15, 2008)

net-cat said:


> Could be any number of things, I guess.
> 
> DX 8.1 support (required for Portal)
> ATI binary drivers (as opposed to nVidia)


Oh, there you go.  The consensus seems to be that ATI drivers suck.



Ash-Fox said:


> I would recommend using Crossover Linux over Wine.


Given that Crossover is _based_ on Wine, what does it do that is worth both $40 and having to navigate a site that looks like it might belong to a spammer selling fake pills?


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## net-cat (Jul 15, 2008)

Eevee said:


> Oh, there you go.  The consensus seems to be that ATI drivers suck.


I could go back to my GeForce 7600 now that I'm not actually using XP x64 anymore, I guess.

Hope nVidia's Linux drivers are better than their Windows drivers. (I/E: Not have an utterly retarded idea of what "dual monitor" means and not bluescreen every five minutes...)


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2008)

Meh, ATI's Linux drivers are actually getting a lot better now that AMD is stepping up to the plate about it when ATI on their own wouldn't. They're releasing tech docs and working quite hard on the Linux side of things. It's already a HUGE leap forward from, say three years ago, before AMD took over. I didn't think that AMD's control over ATI would be a good thing, but so far it's been nothing but awesome all around for ATI users (save for the axing of the All-in-Wonder series of cards).

NVidia's Linux drivers are indeed quite nice, as well, but like ATI's, they're far from perfect. I prefer them to the Windows NVidia drivers, the new control center to which I'm not at all a fan of.

As for Crossover... Crossover is great for apps, and by all means, it should have about the same capacity for gaming as WINE. The only problem is that like Cedega, it needs to be paid for. It's like the other end of the spectrum. I see it like this:

Office->Crossover
Multipurpose->WINE
Gaming->Cedega
AbsolutelyNeedThisOneProgramThatNothingElseSupports(tm)->VirtualBox



> Unrelated note: I think Runefox's avatar is cute.


Wow, thanks ^^ I made it myself.


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2008)

... Er. Wow. Doubleposted for the fail. Can't delete it, either. Oh well.


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## Ash-Fox (Jul 15, 2008)

Eevee;497940Given that Crossover is [i said:
			
		

> based[/i] on Wine, what does it do that is worth both $40 and having to navigate a site that looks like it might belong to a spammer selling fake pills?


Codeweavers are the people who do a lot of Wine development work, all their work in crossover is contributed back to Wine (they aren't all accepted though).

The difference is that in Crossover, there is a simple install engine that sets things like dll overrides automatically for certain applications, application specific fixes that Wine won't implement (they believe in wider fixes, fixes that fix that every application, not a specific application), or implement workarounds that Wine won't implement and would rather wait for a proper fix that will take perhaps even years to develop.

I use Crossover, I sit in both #WineHQ and #Crossover on freenode usually supporting people when I can.


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## Ash-Fox (Jul 15, 2008)

Eevee said:


> As for Crossover... Crossover is great for apps, and by all means, it should have about the same capacity for gaming as WINE. The only problem is that like Cedega, it needs to be paid for. It's like the other end of the spectrum. I see it like this:
> 
> Office->Crossover
> Multipurpose->WINE
> ...



I find Crossover games works better than Cedega. Not to mention doesn't make multi window messy overlay things that make alt + tabbing horrible.


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2008)

Yeah, I was looking at Crossover Games, but they want $40 for it. Not a huge amount of money, really, but I'd need to see it in action before I make a decision like that.

Thankfully, there's a 7 day trial available at Codeweavers' site. It's too bad Creative hates Linux, or I'd be all over that (my sound card is based on the X-Fi, which has zero support).


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## Tachyon (Jul 19, 2008)

AdriNoMa said:


> This kvm of which you speak seems interesting as well...but does it require logging into a KDE session to be run properly? I'd look into it myself, but your post implies that it has pretty stringent minimum hardware requirements, and my machine's a little past the line of obsolescence...though it still works...



This might be somewhat academic now, but for the record...

KVM has nothing to do with KDE, despite the K. It's the Kernel-based Virtual Machine, as in it's a kernel-level virtualisation module. It's like Wine (in that it's not an emulator), but it's another level below it, closer to the hardware. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine

When I talked about hardware requirements, it wasn't performance as such, rather certain instructions that the host CPU must support for KVM to run. It seems this means a CPU made in the last 3 or so years. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_virtualization

A friend of mine showed it to me. We installed KVM on my MacBook Pro that runs Debian, and then installed Windows XP inside of it. XD

But that's basically all I know about it. I wouldn't be able to tell you how to actually use the damn thing.


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## Tachyon (Jul 19, 2008)

net-cat said:


> Ah.
> 
> It should be noted that Ubuntu/Debian's Wine packages suck ass and are updated roughly once every six months (in the case of Ubuntu.)
> 
> ...



I can't say anything for Ubuntu packages, but Debian has been on top of recent Wine releases since 0.9.52, just before 2008 started. Compare http://www.winehq.org/site?news=archive;x=25 with http://packages.qa.debian.org/w/wine.html. Once every six months is plainly wrong, especially of the move to Wine 1.0.

I'll agree, they were somewhat lagged before then, but since then the Debian packages were right on top of new releases. Since 1.0 was released the packages have settled on that version (as opposed to the development version). Assuming they are aiming for a stable package, you can probably see the logic in doing that.

So, as I'm currently using those packages, I'm curious, was there any other reason that those packages suck?


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## Adrimor (Jul 19, 2008)

Tachyon said:


> This might be somewhat academic now, but for the record...
> 
> KVM has nothing to do with KDE, despite the K. It's the Kernel-based Virtual Machine, as in it's a kernel-level virtualisation module. It's like Wine (in that it's not an emulator), but it's another level below it, closer to the hardware. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine
> 
> ...



Ah, well, there's another issue. My mainboard's got a BIOS from 2k3, so I'd imagine the processor's instruction set is at least that old--or at least, the instructions it can handle performing are. I'd try to upgrade said BIOS, but the company's program for that is Windows-only...which I can't even reinstall because the install disc is FUBAR...

Heh, wow...it's like a Catch-22 or something, ya?

I need KVM because I can't reinstall Windows. I need an upgraded BIOS to run KVM. I need to reinstall Windows to upgrade my BIOS.

Aargh...it's like one of those horrible computer-training radio commercials...and that program, as I recall, only supports Microsoft products...

Hmm. Is there any way to install the DirectX 9 drivers from Wine, though? I tried running the "redist" installer, and I got the CAB files out...but then it closed and I had to run the extracted setup program separately--which then failed.


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## Runefox (Jul 19, 2008)

> I need to reinstall Windows to upgrade my BIOS.


Usually, you can use a bootable DOS diskette to update your BIOS, too.


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## Adrimor (Jul 19, 2008)

Umm, what?

Maybe, if I had a floppy drive, and the update was already downloaded...

But I don't even know exactly what BIOS model/version/whatever it's called I'm to update anyway...

And I still need to be able to install Windows for the KVM to be useful anyway, right?

Damn CDs...why must they be so fragile?


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## net-cat (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't know what kind of motherboard you have, but some boards actually have a flashing utility built into the BIOS. Asus, for instance, has something called EasyFlash, which you can access through the BIOS and can read updates off a USB drive.



Tachyon said:


> I can't say anything for Ubuntu packages, but Debian has been on top of recent Wine releases since 0.9.52, just before 2008 started. Compare http://www.winehq.org/site?news=archive;x=25 with http://packages.qa.debian.org/w/wine.html. Once every six months is plainly wrong, especially of the move to Wine 1.0.
> 
> I'll agree, they were somewhat lagged before then, but since then the Debian packages were right on top of new releases. Since 1.0 was released the packages have settled on that version (as opposed to the development version). Assuming they are aiming for a stable package, you can probably see the logic in doing that.
> 
> So, as I'm currently using those packages, I'm curious, was there any other reason that those packages suck?



No, that's basically it.

The repositories that come enabled by default in Debian and Ubuntu contain really old-ass Wine. 

Wine in Debian etch stable is 0.9.25. (link)
Wine in Ubuntu hardy is 0.9.59. (link)

Yeah, you can enable unstable in Debian or backports in Ubuntu and get later versions, but (a) most people wouldn't know to do that and (b) if you're doing that, why not get the latest and greatest from the source?


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## Tachyon (Jul 21, 2008)

net-cat said:


> No, that's basically it.
> 
> The repositories that come enabled by default in Debian and Ubuntu contain really old-ass Wine.
> 
> ...



That's a bit disingenuous. You're saying that old releases of a distro (they may be the latest releases, but they are old relative to the rate of upstream releases) contain old software. Well, I could've told you that!



> Yeah, you can enable unstable in Debian or backports in Ubuntu and get later versions, but (a) most people wouldn't know to do that and (b) if you're doing that, why not get the latest and greatest from the source?



If a user wants up-to-date software, including but not limited to Wine, with the newest features (and, obviously, bugs), then, yes, they will have to do something not quite trivial, such as moving to (at least) testing or using backports. Or grabbing something from upstream.

No problem if you want to do that. I did that for a while, actually, while the Debian unstable version really was lagged a fair way behind. But when it caught up I switched back. Why? Because it seems to me that the Debian maintainers of Wine have a better understanding and use of the Debian package management system, as well as better integration with the whole OS. I think they have a better package.


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## Tachyon (Jul 21, 2008)

AdriNoMa said:


> Ah, well, there's another issue. My mainboard's got a BIOS from 2k3,



2k3 era is almost certainly too old.


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## net-cat (Jul 21, 2008)

Tachyon said:


> That's a bit disingenuous. You're saying that old releases of a distro (they may be the latest releases, but they are old relative to the rate of upstream releases) contain old software. Well, I could've told you that!


Not my point. Yeah, you can enable backports/unstable/whatever. The point is, the distributions that both of those organizations pitch as "this is what you should download if you don't know anything about Linux" (moreso for Ubuntu than Debian) ship without those things enabled. And someone new to Linux probably isn't going to realize that.

That is what I meant when I said "It should be noted that Ubuntu/Debian's Wine packages suck ass and are updated roughly once every six months (in the case of Ubuntu.)"

So, I will amend that statement:

"It should be noted that Ubuntu/Debian's Wine packages *that are enabled by default* suck ass and are updated roughly once every six months (in the case of Ubuntu.)"

And then my solution to that problem still stands, although it's hardly the only solution.


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## Tachyon (Jul 22, 2008)

net-cat said:


> So, I will amend that statement:
> 
> "It should be noted that Ubuntu/Debian's Wine packages *that are enabled by default* suck ass and are updated roughly once every six months (in the case of Ubuntu.)".



Hmm. Okay. Though if you're amending, I'd suggest removing the unnecessarily inflammatory "suck ass" while you're at it. I'm sure you can imagine that if it were your package you'd take umbrage to that, especially if the _only_ reason for it is that it's a package of an old upstream. "are typically old versions" would've sufficed, and been more informative.


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## Eevee (Jul 22, 2008)

I would say 'suck ass' is a fair assessment, _especially_ in the context of wine.


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