# Metroid Prime Trilogy Graphics Downgraded



## AshleyAshes (Sep 8, 2009)

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...-missing-graphical-effects-from-GCN-originals

This is rather interesting.  They compared the GameCube Metroid Prime games to the recently released Metroid Prime Trilogy for the Nintendo Wii.  I watched the video and it is pretty obvious, especially with the water effects (You see the Wii attempt at the 3 min mark).

How does this even happen?  The Wii is basicly built on GameCube hardware that's 1.5x faster.  It should have been a pretty straight forward port, there'd be no need to remove features from the engine.

I wonder if this is related to the fact that a lot of Wii games are really damn ugly.  I mean, not ugly by comparison to 360 and PS3, but ugly in comparison to Xbox, PS2 and GameCube.


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## Kaamos (Sep 8, 2009)

I always though the Metroid Prime games were good looking for their time, but, wow, the difference is _really_ noticeable.


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## Bokracroc (Sep 8, 2009)

lol Nintendo Wii.


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## Kuraggo (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow even that really cool effect of the weapon freezing while charging the ice beam is lost, what a shame. 

This is why i don't get a wii, the graphics just feel old, and to think even the gamecube does a better job with the metroid games is just sad.


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## Kuekuatsheu (Sep 8, 2009)

Hehe, time to pick on the Wii for such itty-bitty things again 

The Metroid series are amazing, I wouldn't even care to look for such differencies. Oh shit, the water doesn't move anymore, how dare they.
It's a fucking game, play it, hate it or love it, and leave.

Besides, nobody forces you to play the Wii version.


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## Lukar (Sep 8, 2009)

Meh, the games still look pretty good. I'd say it's because you have three massively large games on one disc- there are gonna be some losses one way or another.


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## AshleyAshes (Sep 8, 2009)

Lukar said:


> Meh, the games still look pretty good. I'd say it's because you have three massively large games on one disc- there are gonna be some losses one way or another.


 
The maximum size of any one GameCube Game disc was 1.5GB, and all the Prime games came on one disc.

The Wii Optical Disc stores at maximum, 8.54GB.  So no, storage wouldn't be an issue.


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## CaptainCool (Sep 8, 2009)

wow, thats actually pretty bad... i thought the trilogy would at least look identical to the GC version (since its the same hardware and all that) or maybe even a tiny bit better.
i think ill pass then and just buy the original gamecube versions...


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## DragonRift (Sep 8, 2009)

While I'm sure the gameplay in itself is pretty solid, this fuels yet another assumption of mine that I've occasionally wondered since *Mario Kart Wii* came out last year: is the Wii graphically weaker than the Cube?

There is no excuse for any of this.  *Metroid Prime* is almost seven years old, and it came out on a system from the last generation.  Porting it over to the Wii should have been a snap, and the visuals should NOT have had to take a hit.  Like AshleyAshes pointed out, disc space is completely irrelevant.

Now I know I'm not crazy when I tell myself *Mario Kart: Double-Dash* was graphically superior to *Mario Kart Wii*.


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## Stratelier (Sep 8, 2009)

Kuraggo said:


> Wow even that really cool effect of the weapon freezing while charging the ice beam is lost, what a shame.


That is unfortunately noticeable given that the matching sound effect is still present.   Wave Beam is missing the electrical sparks and Plasma Beam doesn't have the fiery embers when charging either, but that's nowhere near as noticeable.

Now as for the Power Beam blasts at appx. 2:00 (the one where they mixed charging a shot with changing weapons) that looks more like a graphical _glitch_ than a feature.

May have had to do with space limitations?  If MP3 occupied more than 5GB of its storage space then _something_ had to go to fit all three discs, by definition.  And not all internal resources can be shared between the games.  For example, how each game still uses its original gameplay engine (e.g: pesky scan targets instead of color coded objects in MP1)

There are admittedly a few gameplay differences, too.  You remember that Energy Tank hidden in Magmoor Caverns where you had to do multilpe bomb jumps to reach (and if you failed, it's into the lava for you because your bombs broke the floor panels) ?  That puzzle's now a cinch with the "Spring Ball" feature.

On the other hand, I have a helluva hard time nailing those pesky Defense Turrets, and bosses like Thardus and Omega Pirate still retain their multiple lock-on points.


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## DragonRift (Sep 8, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> That is unfortunately noticeable especially since the matching sound effect is still present.  Probably had to do with space limitations -- Retro is stuffing _three games_ onto a single Wii disc here!



Okay, let's say they WERE running out of room, even though that's not the case, since a Wii disc can hold data that can swallow 7 GameCube discs.

Has anyone EVER complained about multi-disc packages?  If they really had to fight for space, they could have easily made the game a 3-disc bundle, and not a single gamer would have batted an eyelash.  Three games?  Three discs?  That  would be completely 100% understandable.

But like it was pointed out in an earlier reply, space limitation was not an issue.  It could be one of two possibilities:  

1.  Retro didn't take the extra time to repolish the graphical effects, just so they could meet the August deadline.  This is the most likely, since developers in the past have been known to fuck things up due to not delaying the release LIKE THEY SHOULD when the game isn't quite yet up to standards.  Retro could have simply delayed it to November and still made it in time to make Holiday sales.

2.  The Wii's hardware is a step backward from the Cube's.


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## Kuraggo (Sep 8, 2009)

I actually think the Wii is using the same hardware as the gamecube, but the added features like the processing of the controllers motion sensors produces a hit on the performance. I'm j/k of course. =P


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## Ishnuvalok (Sep 8, 2009)

Kuekuatsheu said:


> Hehe, time to pick on the Wii for such itty-bitty things again
> 
> The Metroid series are amazing, I wouldn't even care to look for such differencies. Oh shit, the water doesn't move anymore, how dare they.
> It's a fucking game, play it, hate it or love it, and leave.
> ...



Oh you're such a Nintendo fanboy. Whenever someone criticizes the Wii (or Nintendo) you come running. 

It's not if the games are bad, they're awesome games. 

It's just that we ask, why they did this when the Wii is essentially a faster Gamecube. It should have been extremely easy to port the game over without downgrading the graphics.


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## Eerie Silverfox (Sep 8, 2009)

Weird. And awful. Games are supposed to get better.


DragonRift said:


> While I'm sure the gameplay in itself is pretty solid, this fuels yet another assumption of mine that I've occasionally wondered since *Mario Kart Wii* came out last year: is the Wii graphically weaker than the Cube?
> 
> There is no excuse for any of this. *Metroid Prime* is almost seven years old, and it came out on a system from the last generation. Porting it over to the Wii should have been a snap, and the visuals should NOT have had to take a hit. Like AshleyAshes pointed out, disc space is completely irrelevant.
> 
> Now I know I'm not crazy when I tell myself *Mario Kart: Double-Dash* was graphically superior to *Mario Kart Wii*.


 Juxtapose Metroid: Corruption and Metroid: Echos and LMK.


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## Zing (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow... I.. Have to say I'm a bit disappointed by that..

Won't stop me from getting trilogy though... Massive Metroid whore.. >>;


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## Aden (Sep 8, 2009)

DragonRift said:


> 2.  The Wii's hardware is a step backward from the Cube's.



Which is a really odd decision on Nintendo's part, what with the competition's focusing on raw graphics power. They could have at least _tried_ to keep improving on the graphics front.


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## Wolf-Bone (Sep 8, 2009)

Unbelievable. The system that you're supposed to accept as having games that look like Gamecube games for the sake of playing a lot of those *same* Gamecube games *you've already played* with more intuitive/fun controls can't even be counted on to look at least as good as its original Gamecube version.


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## DragonRift (Sep 8, 2009)

Zing said:


> Wow... I.. Have to say I'm a bit disappointed by that..
> 
> Won't stop me from getting trilogy though... Massive Metroid whore.. >>;



Well, I don't think anyone should NOT buy it.  All three games are damn good, and part *3* was a great example of how to effectively make good use of the Wii-mote controls in an adventure-shooter.  If folks missed out on the first two games on the Cube, I'd still tell them that the trilogy package is a steal of a deal.  $50 for three incredibly good games?  Hell yes.

But after seeing this comparison video, I think I'm just going to comfortably sit with my two Cube predecessors and simply replay those instead.


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## CinnamonApples (Sep 8, 2009)

Lukar said:


> I'd say it's because you have three massively large games on one disc- there are gonna be some losses one way or another.



^ This. I was surprised that they could even fit the three games on one disk.
EDIT: Apparently I'm not up-to-date on disk space.


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## Takun (Sep 8, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> The maximum size of any one GameCube Game disc was 1.5GB, and all the Prime games came on one disc.
> 
> The Wii Optical Disc stores at maximum, 8.54GB.  So no, storage wouldn't be an issue.



Didn't they change the control scheme among other things?  I'm trying to think of what could be happening.

edit: Just watched the video.  Is that a big deal to anyone?  Samus's arm moves fluidly in the Wii version thanks to the controls.  It looks a billion times better than the static arm from the Gamecube games.  The water doesn't look that great in either.  The Wii's is dumbed down abit but when watching the Gamecube version... I was left unimpressed.


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## Kangamutt (Sep 8, 2009)

Ehhhh so they left out a few things. So the fuck what? Could be disk space, deadlines, whatever. IMO, it wasn't intentional. The fact that MP1&2 now utilize the Wii controls should be the selling point. I _loathed_ playing them on GC because of the controller layout, and I love MP3's control interface.


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## DragonRift (Sep 8, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> Ehhhh so they left out a few things. So the fuck what? Could be disk space, deadlines, whatever. IMO, it wasn't intentional. The fact that MP1&2 now utilize the Wii controls should be the selling point. I _loathed_ playing them on GC because of the controller layout, and I love MP3's control interface.



I think you guys are missing the point.

It's a big deal because these are old games from an old system getting visually downgraded on a machine that's supposed to be faster and more advanced than its predecessor.  And really?  You think they were on some sort of tight deadline?  The games had already been released years ago, a delay of a few months to polish things up wouldn't have hurt sales in the slightest.  No one's saying the games suck.  No one's telling anyone not to buy it.

What if Konami decided to make a PS2 version of *Castlevania: Symphony of the Night*, but decided to scale back some of the animation and spell effects for whatever unknown reason, just so they can accommodate the Dualshock 2's rumble/pressure sensitive features?  It is a big deal.

If it's an old game being ported over to a newer system, it had better look exactly the same or better.  Not worse.  Is it that hard to understand?


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## Kangamutt (Sep 8, 2009)

DragonRift said:


> If it's an old game being ported over to a newer system, it had better look exactly the same or better.  Not worse.  Is it that hard to understand?



No it isn't. But my point is; *I DON'T CARE*. Honestly, all I noticed were a few missing animation sequences. I'm not going to cry over it. Sure, the gun freezing over, burning embers, and moving water are nice touches, but it isn't detrimental to the game. And if you REALLY do have a problem with it, why don't you just contact them? I'm sure they'd be happy to answer your questions.


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## Digitalpotato (Sep 8, 2009)

But apparently you're not supposed to care about graphics because caring about them makes you a graphics whore who's ruining gaming even more than the stuck-up pricks and "Casuals" are.


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## Zweihander (Sep 8, 2009)

Why the graphics should matter is beyond me. Just enjoy the games for what they are or play the originals on their respective consoles.


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## AshleyAshes (Sep 8, 2009)

Graphics help with a games immersion and suspension of disbelief. Also, just really pretty vistas in a game are just... Really pretty. That's half the reason I play Outrun 2, so I can see all the pretty graphics.

The real issue here is just how it's utterly inexcusable to have to remove graphics and effects for a port going from a 6th generation platform to a 7th generation platform that is based on the same architecture as the 6th generation platform. The port shouldn't have even been very HARD except for the effort of tossing in some waggle controls.  More importantly, it just doesn't make SENSE.  It's the same hardware JUST FASTER and with a funny controller.


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## ZiggyTheWolf (Sep 9, 2009)

well weird is the only way i can describe the graphical downgrade.
Still great games and well worth the money.


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## furry fan (Sep 9, 2009)

ok if your hung up on the graphics ask yourself these questions 
does it affect gameplay
does it make the story line any less awsome
and is samus freakin hot and totally kick ass
if you answered no to the first 2 questions then shut up and stop whining about water not moving and if you answered no to the last question i would get your head examined


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## Wolf-Bone (Sep 9, 2009)

furry fan said:


> ok if your hung up on the graphics ask yourself these questions
> does it affect gameplay
> does it make the story line any less awsome
> and is samus freakin hot and totally kick ass
> if you answered no to the first 2 questions then shut up and stop whining about water not moving and if you answered no to the last question i would get your head examined



And here we have this in a community where some people *routinely* try to get out of paying an artist for a commission because of a minor variation in line thickness compared to other work of theirs or an equally ridiculous excuse to be a cheapass/sketchbag.

No, a few less/more polygons, higher/lower resolutions and more/less colors in the textures, bump/normal maps, lighting and particle effects, and standard def vs high def, at the end of the day don't make or break a game. But it *is* really frustrating to know you've basically got to choose between having the best looking *or* best playing version of the game.

See, the problem with your argument is, while graphics aren't the be all and end all of a game, the control scheme just about is. And the Wii's entire selling point is that control scheme. But it's also of slightly lesser significance that you've, until now, been able to expect those games to have the super fun/intuitive gameplay of the Wiimote _and_ look at least as good as a Gamecube game. When I played RE 4 on the Wii, as awesome as it is on Gamecube, the Wiimote feels like playing it how it was meant to be played all along, and I bet Metroid games on Wii have a similar feel. But the Wii and Gamecube RE4 look identical, so you can just think "holy shit these controls are awesome", whereas with Metroid, there's one less game/series that could sell the Wii to some people who know they'll be thinking the whole time "man, it's too bad it couldn't have the best controls _and_ the best graphics", and I'm one of those kinds of people.

TL;DR: awesome games deserve to look as awesome as they play, and that's why you're seeing so many remakes of old games that play virtually identically to the originals and the only thing changed is the graphics. This is what humans tend to think, because humans tend to be very visual thinkers, because we're kinda a visual species!


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## Stratelier (Sep 9, 2009)

DragonRift said:


> Okay, let's say they WERE running out of room, even though that's not the case, since a *[blank]* Wii disc can hold data that can swallow 7 GameCube discs.


Edits are mine for correctness.  Do you know, for a fact, how much space MP3 occupies on its own disc?  Otherwise it's just conjecture.

If you're arguing that those little graphical nods in the GCN version didn't take up much space compared to FMV and audio you are most likely correct, depending on the raw models, textures, and animation scripts used for them.



DragonRift said:


> 2.  The Wii's hardware is a step backward from the Cube's.


#2 is obviously not true.  Is there an option #3?

Even curioser, an article on GamePro.com notes that these graphical missives are also present in the _Japanese versions_ of the games, which were given their own discrete releases.  That's right, single GCN game on single Wii disk, and missing cute graphical touches from the GCN originals.  Barring word from Retro as to the changes, GamePro at least offers a decent theory on the speculation of why.



Kangaroo_Boy said:


> Ehhhh so they left out a few things. So the fuck what? Could be disk space, deadlines, whatever. IMO, it wasn't intentional. The fact that MP1&2 now utilize the Wii controls should be the selling point. I _loathed_ playing them on GC because of the controller layout, and I love MP3's control interface.


I remember beating Thardus one time on MP1 without the Thermal Visor.  On Veteran.  Otherwise yeah, the requirement to lock-on to your opponents was sort of a necessary evil.


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## Kitsune Dzelda (Sep 9, 2009)

I just bought Metroid Prime for Gamecube... and Im so glad I did now 

I just love running around in circles for 5 out of my 6 minutes screaming "WHERE THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED OT BE GOING!?!?!? " as the ship blows up.


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## Panzermanathod (Sep 9, 2009)

That's unfortunate. Also it's weird how some people don't get how there's no reason that the Wii version should have slightly worst graphics than the GC version. 

If they dumbed it down to N64 styled graphics would everything till be honkey dorey?


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## Kajet (Sep 10, 2009)

Meh... I'm sure there's a reason, and I probably wouldn't have noticed if no one pointed out the difference.

And both sides seem to need the waaaambulance, just saying.


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## Panzermanathod (Sep 10, 2009)

But I can't help but to express concern when a game, being ported from one system to another system that is superior, gets a graphics downgrade. If there's a reason I'd love to hear it. And as said before, space wasn't a reason. Hell, if they changed the games around and had them reuse a few textures and models I wouldn't mind. And I sincerely doubt the new controls would account for at least 4 GB of memory.

The only excuse I can currently think of is that the GC has some superior aspects to it compared to the Wii.


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## AshleyAshes (Sep 10, 2009)

I've actually heard that the WiiMote is a drag on the Wii. Namely, the WiiMote basicly broadcasts raw telemetry to the Wii and the Wii's general purpose CPU is left to try and interprut the data. As a result, a certian ammount of system power has to be dedicated to WiiMote input.

This would explain why, even if the Wii cocked 50% higher than the GameCube, why so few Wii games show any graphical improvement over the GameCube. Certianly some have, but a lot havn't and plenty just look *uglier*.


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## Kitsune Dzelda (Sep 10, 2009)

Telemetry? Isnt that where the Wii gets uprotted and starts flying around in mid air?

No, thats telepathy....... odd, I never knew a Wiimote directly broadcasts.  Ya learn somethin new every day huh?


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## Panzermanathod (Sep 10, 2009)

So the Wii is advanced enough to use motion sensors but can't at the same time run a GC game without some sacrifices?

Oh I'll take that reason but it's just weird. I know the Wii isn't supposed to be a powerhouse like PS3 and 360 but this is just rather... sad.

Oh well, if they can keep selling Wii's cheap for causals...


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## DragonRift (Sep 10, 2009)

furry fan said:


> ok if your hung up on the graphics ask yourself these questions
> does it affect gameplay
> does it make the story line any less awsome
> and is samus freakin hot and totally kick ass
> if you answered no to the first 2 questions then shut up and stop whining about water not moving and if you answered no to the last question i would get your head examined



So you're saying if I want to play the same game I played seven years ago with better and more refined controls that take advantage of the Wii-mote, I have to sacrifice my love for decent graphics and visual effects?  Some people are also perfectly okay with McDonald's food, even though there are far better burgers out there.

You guys who keep barking "STFU!  GRAPHICS DON'T MEAN EVERYTHING!"... You may be okay with the switch, but most of us are not.  Go ahead and enjoy the games for what they are, there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not telling people NOT to buy this package.  I'm just saying that's a pretty shitty deal that I'd have to put up with visuals that are lower-grade than last generation's graphics just for better controls.  It's not 2002 anymore.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Sep 10, 2009)

Here's something nobody seems to have asked yet--how much space on the Wii Disc did Metroid Prime 3 take up?

That said, I'm rather disappointed by this myself. And what the hell's up with firing charged shots by tapping the button?


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## Wolf-Bone (Sep 10, 2009)

DragonRift said:


> So you're saying if I want to play the same game I played seven years ago with better and more refined controls that take advantage of the Wii-mote, I have to sacrifice my love for decent graphics and visual effects?  Some people are also perfectly okay with McDonald's food, even though there are far better burgers out there.
> 
> You guys who keep barking "STFU!  GRAPHICS DON'T MEAN EVERYTHING!"... You may be okay with the switch, but most of us are not.  Go ahead and enjoy the games for what they are, there's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I'm not telling people NOT to buy this package.  I'm just saying that's a pretty shitty deal that I'd have to put up with visuals that are lower-grade than last generation's graphics just for better controls.  It's not 2002 anymore.



I've noticed mental gymnastics is best played as a team sport, and the people who need it the most in order to be happy are the type that are going to try to convince you to think the way they do the most. It's like a form of peer pressure where the geeks can be bullies for a change.


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## Stratelier (Sep 10, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Here's something nobody seems to have asked yet--how much space on the Wii Disc did Metroid Prime 3 take up?


I already mentioned that, but we have no concrete answer on the matter, just speculation.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> That said, I'm rather disappointed by this myself. And what the hell's up with firing charged shots by tapping the button?


You mean that YouTube vid?  It's just a graphical glitch caused by simultaneously charging and switching weapons, they're (far as I can tell) still normal shots.



AshleyAshes said:


> I've actually heard that the WiiMote is a drag on the Wii. Namely, the WiiMote basicly broadcasts raw telemetry to the Wii and the Wii's general purpose CPU is left to try and interprut the data. As a result, a certian ammount of system power has to be dedicated to WiiMote input.


If true (and it's certainly reasonable), it's pretty much unavoidable without adding a dedicated, _programmable_ telemetry CPU.  For example, look at the Wii port of Okami.  The in-game menus are bleeding slow for some reason, and since R@D didn't compensate for the tilt of the pointer in the painting controls, if you're holding the Wii Remote at an angle then your brushstrokes come out tilted by that angle.

(But to be fair, certainly nobody would accuse Mario Galaxy of having worse-than-GCN graphics, desired art styles aside...)


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## CinnamonApples (Sep 11, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> (But to be fair, certainly nobody would accuse Mario Galaxy of having worse-than-GCN graphics, desired art styles aside...)



I would, just to be difficult.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Sep 11, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> You mean that YouTube vid?  It's just a graphical glitch caused by simultaneously charging and switching weapons, they're (far as I can tell) still normal shots.


I _know_ it's a glitch. My question is, _why_ is it there to begin with? It wasn't in the original.


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## CaptainCool (Sep 11, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> I _know_ it's a glitch. My question is, _why_ is it there to begin with? It wasn't in the original.



its still just a port, some glitches are bound to happen. in theory its the same console, its just a little tuned. but you still have to make a few adjustments like implementing the motion controls, a new menu since everything is on one disc, the 16:9 widescreen support... all that stuff is messing with the code at least a little bit.


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## Stratelier (Sep 11, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> I _know_ it's a glitch. My question is, _why_ is it there to begin with? It wasn't in the original.


Are we both talking about the charged-shot effect at 1:40 ?  That _is_ from the GCN original (though apparently it also appears in the Wii version, at 5:20).  If you're referring to the charged Beam shots at 3:50 and 4:40, that is not a glitch, they're just alternating between ordinary shots and minimal-charged ones.  In all cases charged shots produce a visor recoil effect, ordinary shots do not.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Sep 11, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> Are we both talking about the charged-shot effect at 1:40 ?  That _is_ from the GCN original (though apparently it also appears in the Wii version, at 5:20).


Strange, that never happened to me. And I never got the big "fwoosh!" effect from shooting a barely-charged plasma beam, either.


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## Kitsune Dzelda (Sep 11, 2009)

Yknow, I think I almost always prefer the Gamecube Versions of these games, if not for the facts of graphical play which you folks have already outlined nicely, but for the simpler gameplay.  It takes me about 4 hours to get a Wii Games Controls down, as compared to maybe the hour it takes to get used to a Certain Gamecube Game or two.  It kind of bashes the beginning of a story when you cant enjoy a plot because you cant understand how to do something, or when you can, it just feeels cheesy and put on.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Sep 11, 2009)

Kitsune Dzelda said:


> Yknow, I think I almost always prefer the Gamecube Versions of these games, if not for the facts of graphical play which you folks have already outlined nicely, but for the simpler gameplay.  It takes me about 4 hours to get a Wii Games Controls down, as compared to maybe the hour it takes to get used to a Certain Gamecube Game or two.  It kind of bashes the beginning of a story when you cant enjoy a plot because you cant understand how to do something, or when you can, it just feeels cheesy and put on.



I hate to sound like some sort of lazy sod but the Wii controls got pretty tiring after a while. The Gamecube controller layout plus the controls setup really made for a solid mechanical scheme. That and I guess I just don't really care for aiming.


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