# Can we talk about the whole JonTron="Nazi" thing?



## PlusThirtyOne (Jan 31, 2017)

Can we talk about something real quick here?
i want to seriously know what peoples' problems are with Jon Jafari speaking his mind on Sargon's livestream.

So far i haven't heard a single offensive thing, let alone hyperbolic, out of his mouth yet. He hasn't said anything untrue. The way i see it, the ONLY way anyone could possibly have beef with his words if they specific identify with the idiots he's talking about. You'd literally have to identify AS an idiot to be offended. _Literally_. if Jon said, "_Some persons__ within a group are morons_", the ONLY way that could possibly be offensive is if you, yourself, identified AS a moron. Granted, he's addressed SJWs on the whole but he's already stated that not all SJWs are alike. He has no problem with people banding together for common good but he's honestly pointed out where their efforts are either fruitless or unwarranted. He's stated loud and clear that the ONLY (unnamed) "warriors" he has any sort of problem with are the stupid ones. The stupid ones. So by getting upset, you'd have to admit that you're...well...you're stupid.

Please, can somebody explain this to me. BY ALL MEANS, please, disagree with me. i don't want to argue necessarily but i want an honest view from the opposition. Can somebody please explain to me what's so wrong about his opinion(s).


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## Royn (Jan 31, 2017)

What is wrong with his opinion is this.  Too many stupid people on this world.


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## JumboWumbo (Jan 31, 2017)

I really don't feel like skimming through a five hour video, but here's a summary I found. (though Dumblr is beyond biased, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.)







Personally, I'd compare them to communists more than I would fascists.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Jan 31, 2017)

JumboWumbo said:


> I really don't feel like skimming through a five hour video, but here's a summary I found. (though Dumblr is beyond biased, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh my god, some of these are taken way out of the context in which he brought them up. He said "effective leader" in the sense that Trump is doing the things he said he would, not that he thinks he is a "good leader" in the logical/moral sense. It's like the word great, it can mean something is significant or "good". The other ones are tumblr topics that they'd obviously bring up, but Christ, can people just listen to the stream?


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## PlusThirtyOne (Jan 31, 2017)

JumboWumbo said:


> Dumblr is beyond biased, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.


Which is why i want someone to explain why they're so salty to me and site examples and time stamps. Not just respond with hyperbole and miss-quotes.


MadKiyo said:


> Oh my god, some of these are taken way out of the context


EXACTLY! Context is important. You can't just say, "Jon said X.", without telling me where and when he supposedly said it.


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## JumboWumbo (Jan 31, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> Which is why i want someone to explain why they're so salty to me and site examples and time stamps. Not just respond with hyperbole and miss-quotes.
> 
> EXACTLY! Context is important. You can't just say, "Jon said X.", without telling me where and when he supposedly said it.



That's the thing. They don't want discussion or debate. They just want something to scream about.

Also this ain't the first time Tumblr got mad at him. A few years ago they were giving him hell for calling some PlayStation service "retarded."


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## PlusThirtyOne (Jan 31, 2017)

JumboWumbo said:


> A few years ago they were giving him hell for calling some PlayStation service "retarded."


Oh, i remember that. Before getting too far into the podcast in question, he'd already alluded to pissing off the interwebs by stating opinions and making jokes. it's the biggest reason for him being so quiet on these issues. i can't say i blame him.

The funniest and most ironic about the backlash is that Jon specifically talks about people being offended for no reason and trying to justify why they're supposedly offended without siting any reasons or proof of their stance.
Getting butthurt over that statement just PROVES HOW RiGHT HE iS!!
How do you not see that!? Are you not self aware!?!?


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## Yakamaru (Jan 31, 2017)

Basically how SJW's <REDACTED> react to people and opinions they don't like:





JonTron's not a nazi. These fuckwits LOVE to throw labels around, even more so now that Trump's become POTUS. The labels they throw around are never based in reality, but a complete lack of sense of reality have never stopped <REDACTED> shouting stupid shit. It's how they thrive: Go about claiming <REDACTED> shit, repeat it loudly and hope the ones they shout at gets silenced.

"The fascists of the future will be anti-fascists".

I've watched the livestream TWICE of Sargon of Akkad and JonTron. 5 hours of sweet sweet shitlordery and trash talk.

The livestream video of JonTron and Sargon. Highly recommend to watch/listen to if you have the chance.


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## PlusThirtyOne (Jan 31, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> I've watched the livestream TWICE of Sargon of Akkad and JonTron. 5 hours of sweet sweet shitlordery and trash talk. ... Highly recommend to watch/listen to if you have the chance.


This is my fourth time through without skimming. Just to make sure i understood the discussion, i paused, reflected, rewound and replayed parts and pieces and i still don't see what the fuss is about. LOL


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## Yakamaru (Jan 31, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> This is my fourth time through without skimming. Just to make sure i understood the discussion, i paused, reflected, rewound and replayed parts and pieces and i still don't see what the fuss is about. LOL


Me neither. The morons on the Left make a shitstorm out of literally nothing. Which makes this livestream so much more fun to watch/listen to.


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## bar1scorpio (Jan 31, 2017)

SJWs/AntiFas/aGGros think in an extreme binary manner. If you're not with them, you're against them. (Something something, some sci fi guys thinking in absolutes).  They're okay as long as you're in the schroedinger's box of of *possibly* being on their side. 
But if you _do_ voice opinions, and aren't 100% behind them, then they will scream "He Will Not Divide Us!" at you like Shia LeBeouf.
Of course, JonTron took no significant hit, which makes the SJW set even angrier.  Some of their channels have become husks as their quest for ideological purity has driven off anyone remotely sullied, and a $#!+lord channel with any discernible talent will grow with routine output.


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## Sarachaga (Jan 31, 2017)

I was utterly surprised when I found out that people were actually calling him a Nazi.
That's <REDACTED>. Really. Even if you're against someone's ideas, demonizing the person is a cheap way of avoiding a confrontation and an actual and interesting debate.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 31, 2017)

Sarachaga said:


> I was utterly surprised when I found out that people were actually calling him a Nazi.
> That's <REDACTED>. Really. Even if you're against someone's ideas, demonizing the person is a cheap way of avoiding a confrontation and an actual and interesting debate.


Welcome to the Regressive Left. They are one of the biggest reasons Trump won, they are one of the biggest reasons Brexit happened and they are one of the reasons people are turning into actual nazis.

Demonize a fucking madeup group and that group will at some point turn real and fight back.

These morons completely lack self-reflection and contact with reality.


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## Endless/Nameless (Feb 1, 2017)

i dont know can you


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## Deleted member 82554 (Feb 1, 2017)

I'm fairly sure JonTron is not a Nazi, he is Jewish after all.


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## nerdbat (Feb 1, 2017)

All I know is that quality of his content declined quite a bit. But hey, I thought that's because he's out of interesting ideas or chose wrong direction with his recent vids, but what if he started to suck because he became a Nazi? .o.


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 1, 2017)

Okay, guys, can we stop throwing around the word "retarded" as though there are no better, non-slur alternatives, please? Same goes for using "mongoloid" as an insult. It's one thing if you're quoting or paraphrasing an actual statement made by one of the individuals being discussed, obviously, but when choosing your own words, please make better choices. You can do it. I believe in you!

And if you don't, I just might start handing out infractions. Because that shit ain't cool.

I _have_ seen some interesting, and semi-compelling points made about how "alt-right" is practically used as a clean-sounding euphemism by people who take much of their rhetoric from white supremacist and neo nazi sources. Chances are that's what's at play here, based on what y'all have posted. I don't have the patience or motivation to listen to someone speak, in general, and I'm disinclined to make an exception for content where I already know one of the participants irritates the fuck out of me (Sargon is... not one of my favorite people. Let's just leave it at that). :V


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## PlusThirtyOne (Feb 1, 2017)

nerdbat said:


> All I know is that quality of his content declined quite a bit.


i would argue his _frequency_ has suffered, not so much his content. Though i understand he does lots more work _outside_ his own videos and YouTube channel.

i actually wouldn't mind if he started making political content and social commentary branded with his usual sense of humor. i think it'd be a fresh and friendlier way to get the messages out that nobody wants to talk about. One of his many points spoken of in the podcast was that there are LOTS of people out there with opinions and worries they wish they could share but can't. Mostly because the opposition likes throwing labels around like "Nazi" despite having no relation or connection. One of the many reasons Trump got elected was because of those closeted opinions. Hillary, nor the media saw it coming because there were so many quiet voters who either lied about who they were going to vote for or just kept that opinion to themselves. People are tired of political correctness, they're sick of having to bend over backwards to please everybody and they're being labeled as racists, sexists and whatever-phobes just for having a different opinion. There's far more quiet Trump voters than the loud and proud variety. Nobody wants to admit it aloud for fear of being called a Nazi. Whether they voted _FOR_ Trump on the right or _AGAiNST_ Hillary and the far left, there's far more discourse out there than people realize. Those opinions are just quiet. if somebody out there like JonTron could break the tension with some self-aware humor then maybe we could open more dialogues without going for the top-of-the-shelf insults and labels.

Just a thought.


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## Sagt (Feb 1, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> i would argue his _frequency_ has suffered, not so much his content. Though i understand he does lots more work _outside_ his own videos and YouTube channel.
> 
> i actually wouldn't mind if he started making political content and social commentary branded with his usual sense of humor. i think it'd be a fresh and friendlier way to get the messages out that nobody wants to talk about. One of his many points spoken of in the podcast was that there are LOTS of people out there with opinions and worries they wish they could share but can't. Mostly because the opposition likes throwing labels around like "Nazi" despite having no relation or connection. One of the many reasons Trump got elected was because of those closeted opinions. Hillary, nor the media saw it coming because there were so many quiet voters who either lied about who they were going to vote for or just kept that opinion to themselves. People are tired of political correctness, they're sick of having to bend over backwards to please everybody and they're being labeled as racists, sexists and whatever-phobes just for having a different opinion. There's far more quiet Trump voters than the loud and proud variety. Nobody wants to admit it aloud for fear of being called a Nazi. Whether they voted _FOR_ Trump on the right or _AGAiNST_ Hillary and the far left, there's far more discourse out there than people realize. Those opinions are just quiet. if somebody out there like JonTron could break the tension with some self-aware humor then maybe we could open more dialogues without going for the top-of-the-shelf insults and labels.
> 
> Just a thought.


If he did start doing political commentary on his channel, I would unsubscribe. I only want funny, uncontentious videos. 

Anyways, that type of video is already done to death on youtube. It's not something that no one wants to talk about like you're implying.


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## nerdbat (Feb 1, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> i would argue his _frequency_ has suffered, not so much his content. Though i understand he does lots more work _outside_ his own videos and YouTube channel.


Frequency wasn't his thing from the start, to be honest (well, maybe aside of Game Grumps), but I used to really like the guy back in the day, and considered him one of the better modern reviewers. It's just that something changed in his style, delivery, and approach to his own reviews, and change wasn't necessarily for the best - I can put my finger on many things, but Digibro made a good in-depth vlog on this topic that reflects majority of my own complaints with newer JonTron content, so I'll just link it below. Otherwise, to each his own tastes, I guess .з.


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## PlusThirtyOne (Feb 1, 2017)

Lcs said:


> If he did start doing political commentary on his channel, I would unsubscribe. It's not something that no one wants to talk about like you're implying.


At least i still have Chris Ray Gun. i just want more content along the same kind of humor. -And i don't mean to imply that literal NOBODY is vocal about their opinions; just that so many are keeping quiet because they don't want backlash or to be branded like the few that do. There's certainly no shortage of opinions on Youtube but only those with the strongest spines (and often lack of self awareness) are willing to go toe-to-toe on the issues. When average Joes and Janes voice their opinions they lose jobs and friends. Celebrities and YouTubers with fanbases and financial security have the benefit of proverbial pillows to fall back on. Us plebs don't.

And as for the anti-SJW content on YouTube, i like to laugh, not get upset. i watch content from both sides of the issues and there seems to be more shit-flinging and smug article skimming than self-referential humor. i watch/listen to <20% of Sargon's content because it's so smug. it's informative, yes, and i agree with a handful of his comments but i simply don't find his brand of journalism that entertaining. it's good content but i don't have the attention span required. i stopped watching Bearing's videos for similar reasons; he's over the top. He's too vulgar and aims for low hanging fruit. The Amazing Atheist teeters on the cringe fence sometimes but i like his well constructed rants. it's entertaining but not nearly as informative. Teal Deer makes super smart informative content but it's often too dry. Right in the middle you have Chris Ray Gun. He's well informed (on most fronts) and i like his brand of comedy. i wish there were more content creators like him on YouTube. i've seen a few but they border on cringe. Unfortunately the majority of cringe lands on the SJW side of the issues.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 1, 2017)

I'm not familiar with Jon tron, and am not interested in watching a 5 hour discussion to catch up on this discussion. 

Regarding Sargon though, I don't think it can be described as 'good content'. He repeatedly shows that he doesn't read the studies or book he quotes, because his claims are often inconsistent with the those studies' content.  
Remember, this is the guy who was sending tweets to British politicians telling them 'I_ wouldn't even _rape you'. It doesn't matter whether you don't like a politician's comments, sending weird sexual comments like that to people is just unacceptably creepy behaviour. :\ 

I can well understand why people wouldn't like it if their favourite youtuber started hanging out with a nitwit whose managed to become the darling of the English Defence League:


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## Yakamaru (Feb 1, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm not familiar with Jon tron, and am not interested in watching a 5 hour discussion to catch up on this discussion.
> 
> Regarding Sargon though, I don't think it can be described as 'good content'. He repeatedly shows that he doesn't read the studies or book he quotes, because his claims are often inconsistent with the those studies' content.
> Remember, this is the guy who was sending tweets to British politicians telling them 'I_ wouldn't even _rape you'. It doesn't matter whether you don't like a politician's comments, sending weird sexual comments like that to people is just unacceptably creepy behaviour. :\
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/737004253013676032
You talking about this tweet I would assume. It's called trolling. Say and stand for stupid shit in public as a government official and people will troll you. Simple as that.

Feminism is cancer and this woman shouldn't be given any power. Fucking laughs when men's issues such as suicide is taken up. Yeah, no, some women shouldn't be allowed near power.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 1, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/737004253013676032
> You talking about this tweet I would assume. It's called trolling. Say and stand for stupid shit in public as a government official and people will troll you. Simple as that.
> 
> Feminism is cancer and this woman shouldn't be given any power. Fucking laughs when men's issues such as suicide is taken up. Yeah, no, some women shouldn't be allowed near power.



Lately I've recognised all this 'feminism is cancer' rhetoric is nonsense, to be honest. I sought out content made by feminists and they simply have much better arguments than the likes of Sargon. 
I don't have to agree with Jesse to criticise people for sending unwanted sexual messages and veiled threats to her. I think people who spend their time doing that to folk they don't like on the internet need to re-evaluate what they're actually doing with their lives. 

What struck me most about the whole anti feminist movement was how many strawmen existed. For example I have consistently seen anti-feminists claim that feminists are pseudoscientists that believe physical sex is a social construct. 
I haven't come across anybody who actually holds that view. _Ever. _
I feel like most of the anti feminists are arguing against an impossibly evil imaginary figure.


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## Royn (Feb 1, 2017)

Opinions are like buttholes.  You know the rest.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Feb 1, 2017)

My issue is that real issues (such as what is happening to campuses) are getting so much attention that people start seeing the likes of how they behave in everyday discussion. Some of it may be that the loud yet sporadic nature of legitimately crazy people leads to "beating the dead horse", which in return forces youtubers to find a new target. I've found some of those who sargon associates with are actually far better than him.


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## bar1scorpio (Feb 5, 2017)

Royn said:


> Opinions are like buttholes.  You know the rest.



I can charge $60 to draw one getting stuffed full of horse c**k?

As for FallowFox's complaints about Sargon, that's pretty much the reason why TL;DR (Teal Deer's) channel became what it is. Dry, but incredibly academic in his dismantling of Feminist talking points. (Recently, he & Bunny Blackwell have taken to reading through full peer reviewed studies & fisking them (typically, studies mentioned by @RealPeerReview))


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## Fallowfox (Feb 5, 2017)

bar1scorpio said:


> I can charge $60 to draw one getting stuffed full of horse c**k?
> 
> As for FallowFox's complaints about Sargon, that's pretty much the reason why TL;DR (Teal Deer's) channel became what it is. Dry, but incredibly academic in his dismantling of Feminist talking points. (Recently, he & Bunny Blackwell have taken to reading through full peer reviewed studies & fisking them (typically, studies mentioned by @RealPeerReview))



Eh, I can't completely agree with what Tl;dr says either, and I feel like an honest appraisal would involve deconstruction of the many spurious arguments, often based on misinterpretations of studies, that are proliferated among anti-feminists, because I see an increasing amount of pseudoscience doign the rounds among them now, and nobody seems to be pointing it out (presumably because if you did, they'd just scream 'beta cuck femanazi! at you over and over again). 
At the _very_ least he did criticise bearing for stealing art and selling it.


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## Vulpinetaco (Feb 23, 2017)

"THEY'RE COMMULISTS, THEY'RE FUCKING BOLSHEVIKS" 
God damn, I wish we had that many "commulists" in America.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Feb 26, 2017)

He once wore a nazi uniform for a few seconds to make a joke

That means he's without a shadow of a doubt a complete nazi


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## PlusThirtyOne (Feb 26, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> He once wore a nazi uniform for a few seconds to make a joke
> 
> That means he's without a shadow of a doubt a complete nazi


i recently ran into this, a photo of JK Rowling dressed as a Nazi.

*image redacted because fake news triggers people.*

To be entirely honest, i don't know if it's real but she recently berated Pewdiepie for his Nazi jokes by dressing as one for a visual joke. if true, then them's some serious double standards.


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## Sagt (Feb 26, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> i recently ran into this, a photo of JK Rowling dressed as a Nazi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A google search would have confirmed that this is fake, so why post it before looking up to see if it's even real? It's not particularly hard and would avoid potential misinformation.


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## PlusThirtyOne (Feb 26, 2017)

Lcs said:


> A google search would have confirmed that this is fake, so why post it before looking up to see if it's even real?


Fyi, i did look it up and i couldn't tell. i also clearly stated that i didn't know if it was real.


PlusThirtyOne said:


> *To be entirely honest, i don't know if it's real* but... *if true*, then them's some serious double standards.


i in no way implied that anybody was a Nazi or even stated that anything was true.

i also heard that Bigfoot is real but i don't know if it's true.

i watched a UFO documentary and i didn't know if it was real.

if stating my ignorance makes me "fake news", you might want to rethink your sources.

i'm not a journalist, i'm not popular online, i'm not a source of information.

if you (in general, nobody specific) read any kind of truth or blame in my statement, you're a moron.


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## Sagt (Feb 26, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> Fyi, i did look it up and i couldn't tell. i also clearly stated that i didn't know if it was real.
> 
> i in no way implied that anybody was a Nazi or even stated that anything was true.
> 
> ...


All I said was that posting such a picture, with very little understanding of whether it was fake or not, was irresponsible. Just so you know yourself, the picture is a photoshopped image created by some guy on reddit and JK Rowling confirmed it was fake on her twitter account.

By the way, if a person cannot tell that Bigfoot and UFOs are fake with certainty, then they're a fool.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Feb 26, 2017)

Lcs said:


> All I said was that posting such a picture, with very little understanding of whether it was fake or not, was irresponsible. Just so you know yourself, the picture is a photoshopped image created by some guy on reddit and JK Rowling confirmed it was fake on her twitter account.
> 
> By the way, if a person cannot tell that Bigfoot and UFOs are fake with certainty, then they're a fool.



Calling people a fool over UFOs is a bit much considering UFO literally stands for

"Unidentified Flying Object"

Which means literally anything that isn't what we conventionally know to fly. Granted if they believe aliums exist then yes, you have a valid point


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## Sagt (Feb 26, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> Calling people a fool over UFOs is a bit much considering UFO literally stands for
> 
> "Unidentified Flying Object"
> 
> Which means literally anything that isn't what we conventionally know to fly. Granted if they believe aliums exist then yes, you have a valid point


No one uses it in that way though. When they talk about UFOs, they are talking about aliens using flying saucers.


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## PlusThirtyOne (Feb 26, 2017)

Lcs said:


> All I said was that posting such a picture, with very little understanding of whether it was fake or not, was irresponsible


Ya know... That's fair. i still don't think speculation under the prefix of "i don't know" is necessarily wrong but whatever. i didn't mean to fly off the handle.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 26, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> Fyi, i did look it up and i couldn't tell. i also clearly stated that i didn't know if it was real.
> 
> i in no way implied that anybody was a Nazi or even stated that anything was true.
> 
> ...



To provide context,  JK Rowling has recently offended some Trump supporters, (they started burning her books) so it's likely that one of them produced a photoshop to try to embarrass her.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 21, 2017)

An update from good ol' JonTron!


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## AustinB (Mar 21, 2017)

I completely agree with JonTron. Almost every SJW, Feminist, Far-Left Liberal etc. I've seen all act like complete idiots without using facts and arguments other than "YOU'RE A CIS WHITE MALE CHECK YOUR PRIVILAGE SCUMBAG!!" "YOU'RE LITERALLY A NAZI OMG!!" "BIGOTRY THIS AND BIGOTRY THAT AND YOU'RE A RACIST SEXIST HOMOPHOBIC BIGOT!!!" "STOP OPRESSING ME YOU CISBAG I'M POSTING THIS TO MY TUMBLR BLOG!!!" etc.
Fun fact: Nobody cares about your feelings and nobody ever will if you're going to spew this ignorant crap. 
Facts > Feelings
Get the memo

Fucking millennials.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 21, 2017)

AustinB said:


> *I completely agree with JonTron.* Almost every SJW, Feminist, Far-Left Liberal etc. I've seen all act like complete idiots without using facts and arguments other than "YOU'RE A CIS WHITE MALE CHECK YOUR PRIVILAGE SCUMBAG!!" "YOU'RE LITERALLY A NAZI OMG!!" "BIGOTRY THIS AND BIGOTRY THAT AND YOU'RE A RACIST SEXIST HOMOPHOBIC BIGOT!!!" "STOP OPRESSING ME YOU CISBAG I'M POSTING THIS TO MY TUMBLR BLOG!!!" etc.
> Fun fact: Nobody cares about your feelings and nobody ever will if you're going to spew this ignorant crap.
> Facts > Feelings
> Get the memo
> ...



Jontron defended Richard Spencer's calls for 'peaceful ethnic cleansing', saying that it was unfair to label Spencer as a fascist.
For those who don't know, Richard Spencer is a well known Neo-Nazi: Richard B. Spencer - Wikipedia

Given that Jontron has 3 million followers and the capacity to influence many people's views, I think that people are right to point out that defending Neo-Nazis either shows that he is astonishingly ignorant, or astonishingly prejudiced. 
Given that Jontron has made comments alluding to and supported politicians who indicate they think that the white race is at risk of extinction I suspect it is, unfortunately, both.


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## AustinB (Mar 21, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Jontron defended Richard Spencer's calls for 'peaceful ethnic cleansing', saying that it was unfair to label Spencer as a fascist.
> For those who don't know, Richard Spencer is a well known Neo-Nazi: Richard B. Spencer - Wikipedia
> 
> Given that Jontron has 3 million followers and the capacity to influence many people's views, I think that people are right to point out that defending Neo-Nazis either shows that he is astonishingly ignorant, or astonishingly prejudiced.
> Given that Jontron has made comments alluding to and supported politicians who indicate they think that the white race is at risk of extinction I suspect it is, unfortunately, both.


Okay, maybe not _everything_, but you get the point. I agree with what he says about SJWs and the likes. I'm not getting into a huge political battle on a furry forum website, so I'll leave it at that.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 21, 2017)

AustinB said:


> Okay, maybe not _everything_, but you get the point. I agree with what he says about SJWs and the likes. I'm not getting into a huge political battle on a furry forum website, so I'll leave it at that.



I'm kind of worried that people often fly off the handle over a silly comment a 14 year old girl made on tumblr, but are often okay with politicians declaring whole races of people to be undesirable. It should be the other way around, right?

Perhaps it is because lot of youtubers have effectively monetised out-rage, so they churn out endless reams of videos about how outrageous millenials are. Half the time the content of the videos is entirely made up too, as illustrated by this video by the1janitor, in which he shows that other youtubers have been editing footage to change its meaning:


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## Mandragoras (Mar 22, 2017)

Honestly, discovering that this dude unironically repeated fasho talking points about how "white culture is under attack," I felt relieved that I had never felt the least bit of interest in his videos. There are people whose work I enjoy who I regularly disagree with or think go too far in one way or another—Anthony Fantano is a good example—but I think I'd be pretty disappointed if someone whose work I dug went this far off the deep end. This is particularly true of Internet video criticism and comedy, because seeing someone's face and hearing their voice and being able to interact with them makes it feel like you know them a little, so that kind of swerve feels like more of a betrayal.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 22, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> Honestly, discovering that this dude unironically repeated fasho talking points about how "white culture is under attack," I felt relieved that I had never felt the least bit of interest in his videos. There are people whose work I enjoy who I regularly disagree with or think go too far in one way or another—Anthony Fantano is a good example—but I think I'd be pretty disappointed if someone whose work I dug went this far off the deep end. This is particularly true of Internet video criticism and comedy, because seeing someone's face and hearing their voice and being able to interact with them makes it feel like you know them a little, so that kind of swerve feels like more of a betrayal.



I felt a similar way when I realised Thunderf00t had begun obsessively producing videos about Anita Sarkesian or the ghost busters movie; I had formerly found his videos interesting because they were often little skits about science, but even those now make frequent references to irrelevant talking points about how much he hates Anita.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 22, 2017)

The obsession which reactionaries and anti-feminists have with Anita Sarkeesian would be hilarious to me if it didn't frequently tilt into disgusting and violent territory. Seriously, why on earth should a few shrilly-enunciated basic talking points about sexist tropes in video games from a sarcastic Zelda fangirl cause such apoplectic rage in grown men? Worse yet, they don't even see the irony in what they're doing, lashing out with misogynistic attacks in response to what they perceive as accusations of misogyny. So what if people pay her for it? It's their money, not yours, and y'all are willing to ply Carl Benjamin with cash for a game he probably never intended to cough up just to spite her, so who's the dumbass here?

What's more, they've ruined any sound discourse surrounding Sarkeesian and her points. Speaking as someone who thinks of himself as a pretty strident feminist, I think that she's said plenty of silly crap worth calling out or at least discussing, but so soon as her name is mentioned critically, the shitbirds descend, thinking you're one of them. It's fucking awful.

P.S. Typed "ply" as "play" there, which... I'm pretty sure it's the other way around with Doctor Sargonicus, insofar as he is capable of guile.


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## Royn (Mar 22, 2017)

lol at this point realize....  Most of whats reals fake these days, and whats actually reals always has someone trying to convince everone its fake, and whats actually fakes busy trying to convince everone whats reals bad and fakes good.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 23, 2017)

JonTron's been red-pilled for a while. He's however not that good of a debater, nor that good at stating his arguments, which clearly shows in the Destiny and JonTron debate video on Youtube.

Sargon of Akkad however crushed Destiny. I lost count over how many times Sargon said "That's not what I said" and "please let me finish".


AustinB said:


> I'm not getting into a huge political battle on a furry forum website, so I'll leave it at that.


Can always hit a Discord group.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 23, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> The obsession which reactionaries and anti-feminists have with Anita Sarkeesian would be hilarious to me if it didn't frequently tilt into disgusting and violent territory. Seriously, why on earth should a few shrilly-enunciated basic talking points about sexist tropes in video games from a sarcastic Zelda fangirl cause such apoplectic rage in grown men? Worse yet, they don't even see the irony in what they're doing, lashing out with misogynistic attacks in response to what they perceive as accusations of misogyny. So what if people pay her for it? It's their money, not yours, and y'all are willing to ply Carl Benjamin with cash for a game he probably never intended to cough up just to spite her, so who's the dumbass here?
> 
> What's more, they've ruined any sound discourse surrounding Sarkeesian and her points. Speaking as someone who thinks of himself as a pretty strident feminist, I think that she's said plenty of silly crap worth calling out or at least discussing, but so soon as her name is mentioned critically, the shitbirds descend, thinking you're one of them. It's fucking awful.
> 
> P.S. Typed "ply" as "play" there, which... I'm pretty sure it's the other way around with Doctor Sargonicus, insofar as he is capable of guile.



I agree, the gamergate supporters who send rape threats to women who criticise misogyny in games are, in my view, making the same mistake as Islamists who send death threats to people who criticise Islamism for its violence.

Sargon of akkad is responsible for motivating a lot of this behaviour; I watched a video by him before in which he defended men who sent rape threats to a speaker at the Oxford Union, by claiming that it was fair recompense for feminists calling them losers.
If you send death threats to people because you don't like being called a loser, you're just proving that you really are a loser.


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 25, 2017)

I think the whole thing is completely stupid, if you have a differing opinion to a liberal, you are a nazi, im honestly sick of hearing the word nazi, like come on there are plenty of other evil political groups or leaders who you could use as an insult, Stalin, Mao, Truman, Bush JR, ive been following this whole SJW bullshit since its inception and it just gets worse and worse, im glad Jon started speaking out about this, but i find it odd that Jon is getting all this hate, when Rob Dyke started his "Robs thoughts" series and he has not had any hate directed towards him even though he did a video talking about feminism. 

I saw one comment on a video about Jon, the person actually said that they like his content, but unsubscribed because he doesn't like his views, which is just idiotic, i was disappointed with Ethan from H3H3 for voting for Hillary, yet i did not unsub from him because i like his content, people are taking personal opinions way to seriously, it would be like say for example me unsubbing from pyrocynical, one of my favorite youtubers, simply because he said he doesnt like pepperoni pizza, which is my favorite food.

Its all this stuff that has caused youtubers such as Blair White, Andywarski, Some black guy, Sargon of akkad and Bearing just to name a few to get so popular, every video or artical they do a video on completely destroy the SJWs arguments, and if you have ever seen people like from Infowars or Lauran Southern from The Rebel media do IRL interviews with feminists or anti trump supporters, its hilarious and makes them look like what they are, a bunch of sheep following an ideology they have completely no idea about, and just spout the typical rhetoric like the wage gap, i wonder if the feminists would get triggered if i stick my dick in the wage gap, oh wait i cant because it doesnt exist.

Honestly i fear for the future, colleges and universities creating safe spaces, people rioting over a democratically elected president, mainstream media starting one of the biggest attempts at character assassination calling trump a sexist, homophobic and racist even though there is no evidence of it yet people ate it up, People seriously need to grow the fuck up and use their brains instead of crying like 2 year olds who dont get their way and throwing a temper tantrum over an opinion they dont agree with, even when people are trolling, they use that as evidence of misogyny or racism, like they are completely new to the internet

It seems now days you cant even have your own opinion that differs from the mainstream, critical thinking is dead unfortunately, sorry i got off topic a bit but SJWs just make my blood boil.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I think the whole thing is completely stupid, if you have a differing opinion to a liberal, you are a nazi, im honestly sick of hearing the word nazi, like come on there are plenty of other evil political groups or leaders who you could use as an insult, Stalin, Mao, Truman, Bush JR, ive been following this whole SJW bullshit since its inception and it just gets worse and worse, im glad Jon started speaking out about this, but i find it odd that Jon is getting all this hate, when Rob Dyke started his "Robs thoughts" series and he has not had any hate directed towards him even though he did a video talking about feminism.
> 
> I saw one comment on a video about Jon, the person actually said that they like his content, but unsubscribed because he doesn't like his views, which is just idiotic, i was disappointed with Ethan from H3H3 for voting for Hillary, yet i did not unsub from him because i like his content, people are taking personal opinions way to seriously, it would be like say for example me unsubbing from pyrocynical, one of my favorite youtubers, simply because he said he doesnt like pepperoni pizza, which is my favorite food.
> 
> ...



I don't think people who allege that people are complaing about JonTron because they are 'nasty Social Justice Warriors' are actually aware of what JonTron's views were.
He's been criticised for defending the Neo-Nazi and self-described white-supremacist Richard Spencer, and for making hyperbolic claims that are often associated with white nationalist points of view, for example claiming that the white race is endangered. He even claimed there was a conspiracy among Mexican migrants in the USA to force American territory to be seceded to Mexico.

So this isn't an example of a man simply disagreeing with commonly held liberal ideas; it's an example of a man who believes in_ complete nonsense_ that would even make the most ardent conservative blush with embarrassment.

But maybe you're too far gone already, if you're at the stage where you're defending Infowars, the website that alleged Podesta drinks a mix of blood, sperm and breastmilk in satanic rituals with Marina Abramovic: www.infowars.com: “Spirit Cooking”: Clinton Campaign Chairman Practices Bizarre Occult Ritual
and which tries to sell male vitality juice to its readers:






I mean...do you actually browse through infowars, see the adverts for fake medicines, and fail to realise that it's essentially a con-job that writes news articles that appeal to idiots, in order to convince those idiots to buy Alex Jones' phony drugs?


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> I don't think people who allege that people are complaing about JonTron because they are 'nasty Social Justice Warriors' are actually aware of what JonTron's views were.
> He's been criticised for defending the Neo-Nazi and self-described white-supremacist Richard Spencer, and for making hyperbolic claims that are often associated with white nationalist points of view, for example claiming that the white race is endangered. He even claimed there was a conspiracy among Mexican migrants in the USA to force American territory to be seceded to Mexico.
> 
> So this isn't an example of a man simply disagreeing with commonly held liberal ideas; it's an example of a man who believes in_ complete nonsense_ that would even make the most ardent conservative blush with embarrassment.
> ...



What is wrong with defending Richard Spencer? that doesn't make you a neo-nazi, here in Australia we dont have freedom of speech, you can't just pick and choose what you can and can't say, like what its fine for black people to say kill all white people, yet anything to do with being critical of minorities makes you an alt-right nazi? either everything is fine to say, or nothing is, no matter how unpopular it is, im not to familiar with this whole alt-right thing, but it does seem like a fair amount are just trolls, i mean the KKK has like 10k members, white supremacist is in critical condition, because most rational people do not care for it, as for the whole whites are endangered, i disagree, but it comes down to what Jon said, tribalism, i don't want all Greco-roman people to disappear, as thats my heritage. 
The problem with that interview with Jon was he wasn't expecting that sort of debate, i think he thought it was just going to be banter like what he did with sargon, and sure the whole rich blacks commit more crime then poor whites was incorrect, but there are lots of stats made up, more on the left side, but i wouldnt be surprised if it was actually created by a leftist so they could point out hey look the right are making up fake stats

Back in 2011 when i was heavily researching conspiracies i did watch infowars a lot, yeah sure some of the claaims are out there, and they do sell a lot of shit, but hey thats their hustle, its like people selling crystals for healing and all of that, if there is a market for it, people are gonna sell it, i have watched more recent Alex Jones stuff and he seems to have taken on the troll persona, to get more attention and get himself memed like "the water is turning the frogs gay", like did you see the video of him with cenk from TYT? you could tell he was trolling hard.
But there are two types of conspiracies, you have the complete bullshit ones like flat earth, but then you have the more credible ones, like zionism and all that type of stuff, you have to taake what they say with a grain of salt which goes for all mainstream or altnews, i mean there are some that make a lot of sense, i look at both sides of the coin, which is something you must do with everything, take Osama for example, i saw an army guy being interviewed in 2005 and he said he believed that Osama had been killed, also he was in the UAE on dialysis in 1998, then Obama comes out and says he got killed just to give himself credibility as he did nothing good, its impossible for him to have survived that long, plus they kept changing the story of how he was killed.

There was one instance where i was complaining about the holocaust, how they base the number of Jews of the amount gone from Europe, if all 6 mil where gone, then how are there still people with number tattoos and a ton of yank jews with german names, they are including the escaped ones in the death count, plus they dont even mention all the Russians and other groups, they talk like the Jews are more important, yet because of saying that i got banned from that site and was told to go back to stormfront, which i had never heard of at the time.. its like these days you cannot question anything the establishment says without being called a bloody nazi or whatever. 
ive looked at both sides and the unpopular side makes the most sense half the time, it really is an information war, thats why the word conspiracy has bad connotations to it, yet say when JFK warned about it, nobody was saying he was a nut.. i consider critical thinking one of the most important things you can do.

Sorry i got off topic but i just tend to ramble a lot.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Mar 27, 2017)

Jontron did nothing wrong™


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## Fallowfox (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> What is wrong with defending Richard Spencer? that doesn't make you a neo-nazi, here in Australia we dont have freedom of speech, you can't just pick and choose what you can and can't say, like what its fine for black people to say kill all white people, yet anything to do with being critical of minorities makes you an alt-right nazi? either everything is fine to say, or nothing is, no matter how unpopular it is, im not to familiar with this whole alt-right thing, but it does seem like a fair amount are just trolls, i mean the KKK has like 10k members, white supremacist is in critical condition, because most rational people do not care for it, as for the whole whites are endangered, i disagree, but it comes down to what Jon said, tribalism, i don't want all Greco-roman people to disappear, as thats my heritage.
> The problem with that interview with Jon was he wasn't expecting that sort of debate, i think he thought it was just going to be banter like what he did with sargon, and sure the whole rich blacks commit more crime then poor whites was incorrect, but there are lots of stats made up, more on the left side, but i wouldnt be surprised if it was actually created by a leftist so they could point out hey look the right are making up fake stats
> 
> Back in 2011 when i was heavily researching conspiracies i did watch infowars a lot, yeah sure some of the claaims are out there, and they do sell a lot of shit, but hey thats their hustle, its like people selling crystals for healing and all of that, if there is a market for it, people are gonna sell it, i have watched more recent Alex Jones stuff and he seems to have taken on the troll persona, to get more attention and get himself memed like "the water is turning the frogs gay", like did you see the video of him with cenk from TYT? you could tell he was trolling hard.
> ...



John is free to defend Richard Spencer. Everyone else is free to criticise John for doing that.
Do you see how freedom of speech works? It doesn't just mean that you can say anything and escape criticism.
Freedom of speech also doesn't mean everything is fine to say, it only guarantees your freedom to say it without being arrested.

The rest of us will still think that people who believe in zionist occupation conspiracy theories are antisemitic idiots.

I can solve your quesiton about the Holocaust though; if 6 Million European Jews died, how come there are Jews who survived the Nazi Occupation?
Because there were 9 Million European Jews before the Holocaust: History of the Jews during World War II - Wikipedia
9 - 6 =/= 0
So...essentially your problem was that you don't know how to subtract one number from another. ._.



To the people who agree with Duster; don't you get tired of constantly finding out that the people you align yourselves with are Holocaust deniers of one breed or another?


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## Casey Fluffbat (Mar 27, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Jontron defended Richard Spencer's calls for 'peaceful ethnic cleansing', saying that it was unfair to label Spencer as a fascist.



Is there a direct timestamp to this or is it a tweet? I don't recall this as far as I've listened to the stream. I had to move onto other things and thusly forgot about it.


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## ItsBrou (Mar 27, 2017)

I subbed to JonTron because of the controversy.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 27, 2017)

MadKiyo said:


> Is there a direct timestamp to this or is it a tweet? I don't recall this as far as I've listened to the stream. I had to move onto other things and thusly forgot about it.


I heard about the defense on twitter which was, when talking of Richard Spencer 'He just wants a white ethnostate;  I don't think he's a fascist,'.
The twitter posts indicate he said this in a stream; the posts begin atting jontronshow after the 17th of February quoting that sentence to him. So that's my best guess for the time.

Other users (including Sargon of Akkad) claimed that John merely sought to say he thinks Richard is a _white supremacist _but not a _fascist_ (a claim that would be incorrect anyway, as Spencer makes repeated references to Hitler, who he refused to denounce).
However, given the comments exist in the context of John's other rants in which he bemoans the future extinction of white people, which is a popular conspiracy among the likes of Spencer, this implies he defends them out of at least some level of sympathy, rather than because he believes the wrong pejorative word is being used to describe them.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Mar 27, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> I heard about the defense on twitter which was, when talking of Richard Spencer 'He just wants a white ethnostate;  I don't think he's a fascist,'.
> The twitter posts indicate he said this in a stream; the posts begin atting jontronshow after the 17th of February quoting that sentence to him. So that's my best guess for the time.
> 
> Other users (including Sargon of Akkad) claimed that John merely sought to say he thinks Richard is a _white supremacist _but not a _fascist_ (a claim that would be incorrect anyway, as Spencer makes repeated references to Hitler, who he refused to denounce), although the comments exist in the context of John's other rants in which he bemoans the future extinction of white people, which is a popular conspiracy among the likes of Spencer, which implies he defends them out of at least some level of sympathy, rather than because he believes the wrong pejorative word is being used to describe them.



When I initially saw it, it was blown up really badly. I've watched his videos for casual amusement over the years, but nothing ever struck me as him having any extreme views or decidedly hateful toward anyone as people suggested when this fiasco occurred.

He made himself out to be a gaming comedian and reviewer and not a debater, so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I'll have to see where this goes. I've seen some of his talking points and concerns and I think he went to the wrong crowd to address them and probably doesn't know enough as he has only been into this since for a couple months.

(Uncertain I will continue this conversation, trying to abstain from anything negative for personal reasons)


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## PlusThirtyOne (Mar 28, 2017)




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## JumboWumbo (Mar 28, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


>



You should have seen the Steam forums for that game. It was beautiful.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Sure, we can talk about the whole JonTron == Nazi thing... it's a fucking repeat of PewDiePie- complete and utter bullshit intended to destroy his life and career (aka libel)


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


>


Good old 4chan, even though i quit years ago after gore threads became less common and i just get called edgy, they still do the right thing when someone is wrongly fucked over


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## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I agree that freedom of speech means you can say what you want without getting arrested but not avoid critisism, oh well except for the holocaust, thats the one thing you cannot have a differing opinion for some reason.
> 
> Zionism is political, yes it has ties with the jews, but we are talking extremists, not just the average jew who either is that by blood or religion and oh here is a fun fact, did you know that arabs and persians are also semites? so the term antisemite is used completely wrong.
> 
> ...


This thread really is a shit show



PlusThirtyOne said:


>


Another perspective on that situation was that the company tried to distance themselves from someone who recently made some very controversial and misinformed statements - something that companies do all the time. If someone alludes to blacks being predisposed to violence or says that Mexicans are entering the US to make them seceed land back to Mexico, then it would make sense for a company to try not to be affiliated with such a person. So, it really was unnecessary for so many people to ask for refunds for the game because of such a decision and quite frankly, it's pretty lame that people did that.



ItsBrou said:


> I subbed to JonTron because of the controversy.


That's up to you, I guess, but you should probably know that JonTron said he was done with politics for now. So unless you find his other content interesting, it seems pointless for you to continue to be subscribed to him. Not that he has ever posted something political on his channel in the first place.



Crimson_Steel17 said:


> Sure, we can talk about the whole JonTron == Nazi thing... it's a fucking repeat of PewDiePie- complete and utter bullshit intended to destroy his life and career (aka libel)


Disregarding my take on the PewDiePie thing, those situations aren't really equatable at all. PewDiePie said controversial things that just jokes, JonTron on the other hand went into political debates and said controversial things because he actually seems to believe them.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> Disregarding my take on the PewDiePie thing, those situations aren't really equatable at all. PewDiePie said controversial things that were only jokes and which were funny, JonTron on the other hand went into debates and said controversial things because he actually seems to believe them.


See, I couldn't be assed to try and differentiate the two (breaking all of my own rules in the process). I could see the parallels, and H3H3 was siding with JonTron... if you say Anti-Semite shit, and your Semite friend stands up for you, either your Semite friend is being a hypocrite, or you've been horribly misunderstood by a really influential party. I guess I have too much faith in humanity- but I'm open to talking about this like men (I was rushed earlier)


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## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> See, I couldn't be assed to try and differentiate the two (breaking all of my own rules in the process). I could see the parallels, and H3H3 was siding with JonTron... if you say Anti-Semite shit, and your Semite friend stands up for you, either your Semite friend is being a hypocrite, or you've been horribly misunderstood by a really influential party. I guess I have too much faith in humanity- but I'm open to talking about this like men (I was rushed earlier)


That's like the "I have a black friend, so I can be as racist about them as I want and it doesn't count as racism" logic. Just because someone within the group that's being discriminated against isn't affected or doesn't take offense, it doesn't actually mean that what the person said/did is harmless or not controversial. Also, I am not talking about anti-semitism - JonTron didn't say anything bad about Jewish people and anyways, JonTron is Jewish himself.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> That's like the "I have a black friend, so I can be as racist about them as I want and it doesn't count as racism" logic. Just because someone within the group that's being discriminated against isn't affected or doesn't take offense, it doesn't actually mean that what the person said/did is harmless or not controversial. Also, I am not talking about anti-semitism - JonTron didn't say anything bad about Jewish people and anyways, JonTron is Jewish himself.


... True.

And while you make a good point, what I wanted to get at is that you can't throw a stick in the air without it landing on a sacred fern anymore... it's so bad that speech is almost censored if you have non-minority opinion (and it doesn't help that I'm still raging about that whole Pewds vs WSJ thing).

However, what I think is irrelevant as of yet it seems- I need to first understand what happened. Please do inform me, kind sir!


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> That's like the "I have a black friend, so I can be as racist about them as I want and it doesn't count as racism" logic. Just because someone within the group that's being discriminated against isn't affected or doesn't take offense, it doesn't actually mean that what the person said/did is harmless or not controversial. Also, I am not talking about anti-semitism - JonTron didn't say anything bad about Jewish people and anyways, JonTron is Jewish himself.



People aren't racist if they have friends of other races, if you hate blacks then why would you have any in the first place, like its called joking, back in the day i use to talk to this korean dude and i would talk shit like the whole eating dogs and other stuff like that, and he would talk shit about italians like "oh make me a pizza luigi" and it was all in good fun, because it was not serious.
Just look at say the whole thing with pewdiepie with that fiver video, Ethan defended him because he knew it was just for shock value laughs and felix just seeing how much he could get away with from that site

Also people seemed to have missed where i mentioned what a semite actually is, it includes arabs, persians and jews, maybe even some other groups in the middle east and africa, just because the jews hijacked the term semite,doesn't make it accurate, in fact, seeing as though the country that has the most hatred for middle easterners are yanks, you could say america is the most anti-semetic country, as well as israel too, even though they are semites, they are extremly racist towards all the other groups in the middle east, now israel are doing the same shit as the nazis, killing off palestinians and stealing their land just because a book says so, and funny enough, the torah actually says jews cannot have their own country and must abide by the laws of whatever country they are in.

Also Jon is not jewish, he is hungarian, you would know this if you watched the stream with sargon.


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## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> ... True.
> 
> And while you make a good point, what I wanted to get at is that you can't throw a stick in the air without it landing on a sacred fern anymore... it's so bad that speech is almost censored if you have non-minority opinion (and it doesn't help that I'm still raging about that whole Pewds vs WSJ thing).
> 
> However, what I think is irrelevant as of yet it seems- I need to first understand what happened. Please do inform me, kind sir!


Yeah I agree that there are people who take some of this stuff too far and who are basically just looking for something to be angry about. That said, those sorts of people are a small minority that are just able to be more vocal because of the attention they get by people who dislike them.

I'm not really convinced that free speech is being censored. The way I see it, people are just having more controversial and divisive opinions, yet not expecting consequences for what they say.

The best way to inform yourself is to watch the debate with Destiny yourself. It's 2 hours long, but it's relatively entertaining.


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## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> People aren't racist if they have friends of other races, if you hate blacks then why would you have any in the first place, like its called joking, back in the day i use to talk to this korean dude and i would talk shit like the whole eating dogs and other stuff like that, and he would talk shit about italians like "oh make me a pizza luigi" and it was all in good fun, because it was not serious.
> Just look at say the whole thing with pewdiepie with that fiver video, Ethan defended him because he knew it was just for shock value laughs and felix just seeing how much he could get away with from that site
> 
> Also people seemed to have missed where i mentioned what a semite actually is, it includes arabs, persians and jews, maybe even some other groups in the middle east and africa, just because the jews hijacked the term semite,doesn't make it accurate, in fact, seeing as though the country that has the most hatred for middle easterners are yanks, you could say america is the most anti-semetic country, as well as israel too, even though they are semites, they are extremly racist towards all the other groups in the middle east, now israel are doing the same shit as the nazis, killing off palestinians and stealing their land just because a book says so, and funny enough, the torah actually says jews cannot have their own country and must abide by the laws of whatever country they are in.
> ...


Back. I'll just edit this post for the sake of not needing to do a triple post.

I don't have a problem with people making jokes about stuff like that when it's obvious for outsiders that everyone is just joking, for example, when that sort of humour is used on Family Guy or South Park. However, I do have a problem with people who spew out non-sense that they actually believe themselves. So since JonTron was not joking during the debate and he seems to legitimately believe the stuff that he said, the example you used about your friend is irrelevant.

Also, even when people are just joking, it's sometimes hard to differentiate it from when other people, who actually hold hateful beliefs, write similar things.

You were right about JonTron not being Jewish - my bad. For some reason I remembered him being Jewish, though I suppose I'm just mixing him up with h3h3. It's not particularly relevant anyways though.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> People aren't racist if they have friends of other races, if you hate blacks then why would you have any in the first place, like its called joking, back in the day i use to talk to this korean dude and i would talk shit like the whole eating dogs and other stuff like that, and he would talk shit about italians like "oh make me a pizza luigi" and it was all in good fun, because it was not serious.
> Just look at say the whole thing with pewdiepie with that fiver video, Ethan defended him because he knew it was just for shock value laughs and felix just seeing how much he could get away with from that site
> 
> Also people seemed to have missed where i mentioned what a semite actually is, it includes arabs, persians and jews, maybe even some other groups in the middle east and africa, just because the jews hijacked the term semite,doesn't make it accurate, in fact, seeing as though the country that has the most hatred for middle easterners are yanks, you could say america is the most anti-semetic country, as well as israel too, even though they are semites, they are extremly racist towards all the other groups in the middle east, now israel are doing the same shit as the nazis, killing off palestinians and stealing their land just because a book says so, and funny enough, the torah actually says jews cannot have their own country and must abide by the laws of whatever country they are in.
> ...


Jon's not a really good debater. Not yet, anyway. Although he's been red-pilled for a while, he's practically new to the scene. As he learns, reads, watches sources, statistics and evidence, he's going to be able to formulate himself much better. 

The Sargon/Destiny stream was amazeballs. I completely lost the amount of times Sargon said "that is not what I said", asked to finish, and "hold on". There's a lot. Destiny got crushed hard.

Destiny talks fast, hoping that no one catches the flaws in his arguments. When someone is about to point that shit out, he interrupts, like a lot of people are notorious for. Destiny, from my own point of view, isn't actually interested in a debate. He's interested in advocating for his own views, and shut down or talk over those who disagree.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Mar 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> Back. I'll just edit this post for the sake of not needing to do a triple post.
> 
> I don't have a problem with people making jokes about stuff like that when it's obvious for outsiders that everyone is just joking, for example, when that sort of humour is used on Family Guy or South Park. However, I do have a problem with people who spew out non-sense that they actually believe themselves. So since JonTron was not joking during the debate and he seems to legitimately believe the stuff that he said, the example you used about your friend is irrelevant.
> 
> ...



Honestly he does have a bit of a point. I'm Metis and my friends poke native jokes a fair bit. I retort with jokes of their heritage as well and you know what? We actually laugh because they're in good taste


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I agree that freedom of speech means you can say what you want without getting arrested but not avoid critisism, oh well except for the holocaust, thats the one thing you cannot have a differing opinion for some reason.
> 
> Zionism is political, yes it has ties with the jews, but we are talking extremists, not just the average jew who either is that by blood or religion and oh here is a fun fact, did you know that arabs and persians are also semites? so the term antisemite is used completely wrong.
> 
> ...



So, let me get this straight, you think that there is Zionist conspiracy, comprised of a selection of extreme Jews, that aims to do what, to take over the world?
...and you think that this conspiracy you imagine made up the death toll of the holocaust in order to justify the occupation of Palestine?
You think that the gas chambers and mass graves didn't exist.

It's hilarious that you don't think you are a Holocaust denier; you literally just explained that you think the Holocaust was faked by an elaborate conspiracy of evil Jews. :\

Never mind that there have been numerous investigations into the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps, that the Nazis kept ongoing records of the number of Jews they had exterminated, and that these records were brought before the Nuremberg trials: avalon.law.yale.edu: The Avalon Project : Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol. 3 - Twentieth Day
Former crematoria have been identified, bone crushing machines have been identified, former Nazi concentration camp workers have offered testimony consistent with the field evidence identified and a slew of concentration camp survivors have offered independent eye witness accounts that corroborate one another.

So obviously the Holocaust happened.



Crimson_Steel17 said:


> Sure, we can talk about the whole JonTron == Nazi thing... it's a fucking repeat of PewDiePie- complete and utter bullshit intended to destroy his life and career (aka libel)



PewDiePie is a millionaire, so if he had a libel case he would easily be able to make a succesful lawsuit against the newspapers which reported on his comments. 
Of course the reality is that he doesn't _have_ a libel case, Disney reasonably decided to end its partnership with him because they recognised that his antisemitic jokes, although ironic in nature, drew bad publicity for Disney.

Nobody has ever claimed that PewDiePie or JonTron are Nazis, only that PewDiePie's jokes understandably weren't perceived as appropriate by a children's entertainment company, and that JonTron expressed beliefs in racist conspiracy theories and found himself moved to defend other people who actually are NeoNazis- which is probably a manifestation of his amazing stupidity, rather than Nazi sympathy.


----------



## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> Honestly he does have a bit of a point. I'm Metis and my friends poke native jokes a fair bit. I retort with jokes of their heritage as well and you know what? We actually laugh because they're in good taste


Yes and I don't have a problem with this either since you're close to them and they're just saying jokes.

What I was saying earlier is that JonTron wasn't making joke, but rather spewing out his controversial opinions on race issues. So those situations are not the same and therefore it's really not a good point to bring up.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

It's just mind boggling really, that you guys don't seem to bat an eye lid that almost every time that these discussions come up, a user ends up revealing that they believe the Holocaust was fabricated.
It's even more surprising that you'll continue agreeing with these users even after they reveal how nuts they are, so long as they support your favourite youtubers. 
You just kind of ignore it and carry on. If somebody says they think the Holocaust is fabricated, _none of you care_, but if somebody says they think Sargon of Akkad made a mistake in a youtube video, the torrent of critical responses is_ unending_. 
._. 

Here's a thought; if you find out that you're holding views that are popularised among people who are bonafide Holocaust deniers, maybe it shows that you need to review your beliefs more critically.


----------



## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> PewDiePie is a millionaire, so if he had a libel case he would easily be able to make a succesful lawsuit against the newspapers which reported on his comments.
> Of course the reality is that he doesn't _have_ a libel case, Disney reasonably decided to end its partnership with him because they recognised that his antisemitic jokes, although ironic in nature, drew bad publicity for Disney.
> 
> Nobody has ever claimed that PewDiePie or JonTron are Nazis, only that PewDiePie's jokes understandably weren't perceived as appropriate by a children's entertainment company, and that JonTron expressed beliefs in racist conspiracy theories and found himself moved to defend other people who actually are NeoNazis- which is probably a manifestation of his amazing stupidity, rather than Nazi sympathy.


I'm sorry, but WHAT???!! I actually saw that hit piece by the WSJ, and I CAN say that Felix Kjellberg was the subject of Libel. It just so happens that he didn't even NEED to file charges, because WSJ faced an immediate shit storm from other Content Creators, as well as some of the other Mainstream Media... but beyond that, you make a further fool of yourself- first off, Disney severed ties through Maker Studios (originally owned by Kjellberg) after being presented with the faulty hit piece... by the WSJ personally. Additionally, we're talking about _DISNEY-_ a company notorious for inappropriate underlying meanings and sex jokes left EVERYWHERE in popular works... most famously, the cover of _A Little Mermaid_ had to be re-drawn so the Priest wouldn't have a boner (although other, darker secrets have loomed over the company for far longer). Sorry, bro... but you just lost all credibility in my book


----------



## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> It's just mind boggling really, that you guys don't seem to bat an eye lid that almost every time that these discussions come up, a user ends up revealing that they believe the Holocaust was fabricated.
> It's even more surprising that you'll continue agreeing with these users even after they reveal how nuts they are, so long as they support your favourite youtubers.
> You just kind of ignore it and carry on. If somebody says they think the Holocaust is fabricated, _none of you care_, but if somebody says they think Sargon of Akkad made a mistake in a youtube video, the torrent of critical responses is_ unending_.
> ._.
> ...


You can shut your muzzle any day now- I actually try to fact check and learn about what happened before jumping to conclusions... and for me, these folks are more than entertainers- they are my coworkers, they are my comrades (even the ones I don't agree with), and they are another family in a sense. We are all on the same platform for the same reason: to make our voices heard, and to produce meaningful content (some more than others) where the Mainstream Media fall short. Be careful who you insult and where... you might face a bigger shit storm than you care to know could exist


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> I'm sorry, but WHAT???!! I actually saw that hit piece by the WSJ, and I CAN say that Felix Kjellberg was the subject of Libel. It just so happens that he didn't even NEED to file charges, because WSJ faced and immediate shit storm from other Content Creators, as well as some of the other Mainstream Media... but beyond that, you make a further fool of yourself- first off, Disney severed ties through Maker Studios (originally owned by Kjellberg) after being presented with the faulty hit piece... by the WSJ personally. Additionally, we're talking about _DISNEY-_ a company notorious for inappropriate underlying meanings and sex jokes left EVERYWHERE in popular works... most famously, the cover of _A Little Mermaid_ had to be re-drawn so the Priest wouldn't have a boner (although other, darker secrets have loomed over the company for far longer). Sorry, bro... but you just lost all credibility in my book



Oh dear, here we go with the 'Disney is corrupting our children' conspiracy. It's confusing that you think that, even if this conspiracy was true, that it would mean Disney should be obliged to give money to content creators who make jokes about killing Jews.

Almost every news article I read about PewDiePie explained that his jokes were ironic, not sincere statements of antisemitic belief, and most even quoted comments from Felix defending himself:
www.bbc.co.uk: Disney drops YouTuber PewDiePie over anti-Semitism claims - BBC News

So how exactly is the media being libelous?
If they had implied that he genuinely believed in the Nazi ideology, I could see grounds for libel, but no reporters suggested that.




Crimson_Steel17 said:


> You can shut your muzzle any day now- I actually try to fact check and learn about what happened before jumping to conclusions... and for me, these folks are more than entertainers- they are my coworkers, they are my comrades (even the ones I don't agree with), and they are another family in a sense. We are all on the same platform for the same reason: to make our voices heard, and to produce meaningful content (some more than others) where the Mainstream Media fall short. Be careful who you insult and where... you might face a bigger shit storm than you care to know could exist



So you're saying that I should be careful about exercising my freedom of speech, or you will organise a harassment campaign against me?

Very mature. 

Seriously though, do you agree that the users in this thread denying the Holocaust are full of shit? Do you denounce them and their conspiracy theories, or do you regard them as 'comrades' ?


----------



## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Oh dear, here we go with the 'Disney is corrupting our children' conspiracy. It's confusing that you think that, even if this conspiracy was true, that it would mean Disney should be obliged to give money to content creators who make jokes about killing Jews.
> 
> Almost every news article I read about PewDiePie explained that his jokes were ironic, not sincere statements of antisemitic belief, and most even quoted comments from Felix defending himself:
> www.bbc.co.uk: Disney drops YouTuber PewDiePie over anti-Semitism claims - BBC News
> ...


I don't know... maybe the part where if you view the source material, you can clearly find the small pieces of select evidence that WSJ used... but you can ALSO find the context that WSJ so conveniently ignored. Viewing the source material, and being skeptical of EVERYTHING you hear can be fucking amazingly helpful, bro.

As for the "'Disney is corrupting our children' conspiracy," you're the one that brought that up. I only mentioned their history to rebut you're "Disney is fucking perfect because kids' content" fallacy... BTW, their not. And, their not. Quite frankly, this society we live in where trigger warnings are mandatory, humor can be used out of context as a "legitimate" hit piece with damn near impunity, and all of us are supposed to be "surprised" at people being a bunch of dumbasses by attempting to shut them up and fight a losing battle, is what's corrupting our kids. Have you noticed the new "trend" going around lately? Advocating for segregation. Gee, I wonder where I've heard of that before... OH YEAH! It's the call for the return of Jim Crow- just under the name of "Safe Spaces" this time! Any other bright ideas? Lay them on me! BRING IT!!!


----------



## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> I don't know... maybe the part where if you view the source material, you can clearly find the small pieces of select evidence that WSJ used... but you can ALSO find the context that WSJ so conveniently ignored. Viewing the source material, and being skeptical of EVERYTHING you hear can be fucking amazingly helpful, bro.


I'm a bit hesitant to write something about the PewDiePie thing in depth since it's sort of off-topic, but I've got to say that I agree with Fallow. I've read the article (or at least whats available to see without paying for a subscription) and seen the video. What I've noticed is that a lot of Youtubers sort of bullshitted what the article and video actually said and acted as if there was no context - despite the media pieces mentioning that it was just a joke. Also, another thing that was pushed by Youtubers is that the big media sources called him a Nazi, yet I haven't seen this myself.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> I don't know... maybe the part where if you view the source material, you can clearly find the small pieces of select evidence that WSJ used... but you can ALSO find the context that WSJ so conveniently ignored. Viewing the source material, and being skeptical of EVERYTHING you hear can be fucking amazingly helpful, bro.
> 
> As for the "'Disney is corrupting our children' conspiracy," you're the one that brought that up. I only mentioned their history to rebut you're "Disney is fucking perfect because kids' content" fallacy... BTW, their not. And, their not. Quite frankly, this society we live in where trigger warnings are mandatory, humor can be used out of context as a "legitimate" hit piece with damn near impunity, and all of us are supposed to be "surprised" at people being a bunch of dumbasses by attempting to shut them up and fight a losing battle, is what's corrupting our kids. Have you noticed the new "trend" going around lately? Advocating for segregation. Gee, I wonder where I've heard of that before... OH YEAH! It's the call for the return of Jim Crow- just under the name of "Safe Spaces" this time! Any other bright ideas? Lay them on me! BRING IT!!!



So you think reports, like the one I quoted, show that news outlets implied Felix believes in the Nazi ideology, and that Disney shouldn't have severed ties with Felix for his crass humour because they _already _participate in a conspiracy to sexualise the youth, and if you're in for a penny then you may as well be in for a pound? 
...and I'm meant to believe you're a skeptical person when you ask me to believe all that? 

I'll ask you again. Do you denounce the users here, like Duster, who think that the Holocaust was a Jewish fabrication?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Nice, trying to put words in my mouth, WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT HAPPEN?????
> 
> Yes there is a zionist conspiracy it is obvious if you actually look into it, things add up, but whats this "i made up"? im just going with all the stuff ive read, made up the death toll? no i said exaggerated, can you even read? the bone crushing thing actually does make sense, because it is just impossible to burn so many, i have yet to find any credible evidence about gas chambers though, yeah the nazis had gas, there is that one picture that everyone uses, but so what, doesn't mean anything as many other places like japan and so on made gas, shit even the gas that saddam used on the kurds was made by americans and given to him, then when he was no longer useful, they killed him, isn't it strange how all these so called bad guys like say gadaffi just get killed and are never put on trial? but thats a whole nother story.
> So the nazis kept records of all the jews killed? so what they just didn't bother with any of the soviets, or any other groups of people, see this focus on the jews is just so bloody suspicious, i mean you can question anything and its fine, but the holocaust? thats illegal, does that not seem odd to you? why are the jews so fucking important? during the end of the war they were over the jews, they were focusing on the soviets, i use to know a veterinarian who was a medic during the war,and he goes on about zionists and all of that because he saw what went on first hand, hell even my doctor told me about how the australian coast guard warned england about the planes going to pearl harbor, but they didn't say anything because that would give an excuse for the yanks to get involved in the war
> ...


@Crimson_Steel17 

This is the kind of person you find yourself allied with.
One that thinks the gas chambers, mass graves and Holocaust death count, were made up or exaggerated by evil Jewish conspirators, because he watched a youtube video called "synagogoue of satan".

Do you denounce this man?


----------



## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> I'm a bit hesitant to write something about the PewDiePie thing in depth since it's sort of off-topic, but I've got to say that I agree with Fallow. I've read the article (or at least whats available to see without paying for a subscription) and seen the video. What I've noticed is that a lot of Youtubers sort of bullshitted what the article and video actually said and acted as if there was no context - despite the media pieces mentioning that it was just a joke. Also, another thing that was pushed by Youtubers is that the big media sources called him a Nazi, yet I haven't seen this myself.


You have to also view all of the material that Felix produced, which WSJ cherry picked from... without seeing that for yourself, you're effectively describing a David Copperfield act in real time, even though you're blind. Just saying



Fallowfox said:


> So you think reports, like the one I quoted, show that news outlets implied Felix believes in the Nazi ideology, and that Disney shouldn't have severed ties with Felix for his crass humour because they _already _participate in a conspiracy to sexualise the youth, and if you're in for a penny then you may as well be in for a pound?
> ...and I'm meant to believe you're a skeptical person when you ask me to believe all that?
> 
> I'll ask you again. Do you denounce the users here, like Duster, who think that the Holocaust was a Jewish fabrication?


First off, your "report" is but a glossing over of all that was cherry picked... as a professional courtesy, I'll link all of the original videos Felix uploaded that WSJ picked apart. BE SURE TO WATCH THE ENTIRITY OF EVERY VIDEO- SOME CONTEXT CAN ONLY BE FOUND DURING THE BULK OF SOME VIDEOS:
*THE FIVERR INCIDENT:*




*THE NAZI UNIFORM JOKE:*




*THE MID-INCIDENT RESPONSE TO WSJ HIT PIECE:*




*FIVERR GUYS RETURN; "CONTEXT MATTERS":*





That's as much of the source material as I could compile without digging for hours, and the last video is the resolution of the event.

As for your request for me to denounce @DusterBluepaw that's not going to happen for a single reason: it's a losing battle that's not worth fighting. And as far as I could tell, he recognized the Holocaust, but questioned the death toll's breakdown by ethnicity... something that (while still questionable in nature) is not what you accuse it of being. It's just not worth trying to play chess with a pigeon...



Fallowfox said:


> @Crimson_Steel17
> 
> This is the kind of person you find yourself allied with.
> One that thinks the gas chambers, mass graves and Holocaust death count, were made up or exaggerated by evil Jewish conspirators, because he watched a youtube video called "synagogoue of satan".
> ...


I will not participate in your ad hominem... even if I disagree with parts of his logic, he's still entitled to his opinion. I DO, however, have a problem with you trying to silence any opinion you don't agree with... eat 1st Amendment, motherfucker.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> @Crimson_Steel17
> 
> This is the kind of person you find yourself allied with.
> One that thinks the gas chambers, mass graves and Holocaust death count, were made up or exaggerated by evil Jewish conspirators, because he watched a youtube video called "synagogoue of satan".
> ...


Going to have to ask you to refrain from personal attacks and accusations, mate. 

Also, please refrain from going offtopic. 

Suggestion: Go and actually read what he wrote.


----------



## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> You have to also view all of the material that Felix produced, which WSJ cherry picked from... without seeing that for yourself, you're effectively describing a David Copperfield act in real time, even though you're blind. Just saying
> 
> 
> First off, your "report" is but a glossing over of all that was cherry picked... as a professional courtesy, I'll link all of the original videos Felix uploaded that WSJ picked apart. BE SURE TO WATCH THE ENTIRITY OF EVERY VIDEO- SOME CONTEXT CAN ONLY BE FOUND DURING THE BULK OF SOME VIDEOS:
> ...


I have seen all of those videos created by PewDiePie, as well as some other videos created by h3h3 and Phillip deFranco.


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## ItsBrou (Mar 28, 2017)

So much posturing here.
Careful it doesn't hurt your back.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> You have to also view all of the material that Felix produced, which WSJ cherry picked from... without seeing that for yourself, you're effectively describing a David Copperfield act in real time, even though you're blind. Just saying
> 
> 
> First off, your "report" is but a glossing over of all that was cherry picked... as a professional courtesy, I'll link all of the original videos Felix uploaded that WSJ picked apart:
> ...



I did watch PewDiePie's original videos. His antisemitic comments are just crass jokes, rather than sincere beliefs, and indeed, that's all that news outlets represented them as. 
He lost his partnership with Disney's Maker studios because they were crass jokes. 

Duster's version of the Holocaust is so revised and different to the actual Holocaust that a belief in his alternative version is essentially a denial that the real Holocaust took place. 
This is sort of obvious, because it is implicit in Duster's statement that Jewish conspirators contrived an exaggerated and fake version of the Holocaust in order to garner sympathy to justify their empiric ambitions. 

If you want to claim you think you're above talking to Duster, why have you been liking his posts and supporting his other arguments? Are you worried at all that your beliefs might be kinda shitty, given that they reliably attract so many flies?


----------



## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

ItsBrou said:


> So much posturing here.
> Careful it doesn't hurt your back.


Ouch.


----------



## Honey Lavender; (Mar 28, 2017)

Lcs said:


> I have seen all of those videos created by PewDiePie, as well as some other videos created by h3h3 and Phillip deFranco.


So at least YOU could find the individual scenes, even if you can't identify the context? (Hint hint: the phone call sets up the uniform, and that's but one example)



Fallowfox said:


> I did watch PewDiePie's original videos. His antisemitic comments are just crass jokes, rather than sincere beliefs, and indeed, that's all that news outlets represented them as.
> He lost his partnership with Disney's Maker studios because they were crass jokes.
> 
> Duster's version of the Holocaust is so revised and different to the actual Holocaust that a belief in his alternative version is essentially a denial that the real Holocaust took place.
> ...


Can it, before I have the mind to have it canned for you. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time on you, but you've taken the arguments of @DusterBluepaw and reduced them so far that they aren't even his words any more. You've oversimplified his position to be what it's not- he recognized the Holocaust, but questioned some of what occurred based on a (rather sketchy) trail of evidence, and seeks answers to questions that he has. He has his own opinion, and regardless of how politically correct it is, he's within his rights.

As for Felix... you can can it any day now; you're clearly beyond reason


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Going to have to ask you to refrain from personal attacks and accusations, mate.
> 
> Also, please refrain from going offtopic.
> 
> Suggestion: Go and actually read what he wrote.



If you want to defend your youtube idols from accusations of Nazi sympathy or history revisionism, then you shouldn't tolerate or encourage actual Nazi sympathisers and historical revisionists.

At the very least, you should be concerned that so many people who believe that the gas chambers are a Zionist lie, or other such nonsense, are drawn to your position.



Crimson_Steel17 said:


> So at least YOU could find the individual scenes, even if you can't identify the context? (Hint hint: the phone call sets up the uniform, and that's but one example)
> 
> 
> Can it, before I have the mind to have it canned for you. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time on you, but you've taken the arguments of @DusterBluepaw and reduced them so far that they aren't even his words any more. You've oversimplified his position to be what it's not- he recognized the Holocaust, but questioned some of what occurred based on a (rather sketchy) trail of evidence, and seeks answers to questions that he has. He has his own opinion, and regardless of how politically correct it is, he's within his rights.
> ...



I'm going to offer some genuine advice.
If you want to defend free speech, then you should avoid telling people to 'can it' if they don't say what you like.

Duster is entitled to have his own views. I'm entitled to criticise them for being crazy. 

Somehow you have found it within yourself to denounce safe spaces and trigger warnings, even though nobody here has been advocating them, but you won't denounce neo-Nazi propaganda about Jews, even though this is repeatedly brought up on these forums. ._.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> If you want to defend your youtube idols from accusations of Nazi sympathy or history revisionism, then you shouldn't tolerate or encourage actual Nazi sympathisers and historical revisionists.
> 
> At the very least, you should be concerned that so many people who believe that the gas chambers are a Zionist lie, or other such nonsense, are drawn to your position.


Going about calling everyone who disagree with you for a Nazi is not going to help. In fact, it's counter-productive to throw insults, especially accusations, just because you disagree with them, mate. 

Again, I am going to ask you to refrain from personal attacks and insults.

Also, how are these people Nazi sympathisers?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Going about calling everyone who disagree with you for a Nazi is not going to help. In fact, it's counter-productive to throw insults, especially accusations, just because you disagree with them, mate.
> 
> Again, I am going to ask you to refrain from personal attacks and insults.
> 
> Also, how are these people Nazi sympathisers?



I don't think Duster is a Nazi or a Nazi sympathiser.
It's a fact though, that the conspiracy theories he believes in are Neo Nazi propaganda and are a part of wider Holocaust denial and historical revisionism.

You obviously do have a problem with people who spread Neo Nazi propaganda associating with you.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> I don't think Duster is a Nazi or a Nazi sympathiser.





> This is the kind of person you find yourself allied with.
> One that thinks the gas chambers, mass graves and Holocaust death count, were made up or exaggerated by evil Jewish conspirators, because he watched a youtube video called "synagogoue of satan".


Again, I am going to ask you to refrain from personal attacks, insults, and heavily suggesting someone is a Nazi/Nazi sympathiser. Doesn't matter whether you actually believe what you're saying, or not. 


> Nobody has ever claimed that PewDiePie or JonTron are Nazis, only that PewDiePie's jokes understandably weren't perceived as appropriate by a children's entertainment company, and that JonTron expressed beliefs in racist conspiracy theories and found himself moved to defend other people who actually are NeoNazis- which is probably a manifestation of his amazing stupidity, rather than Nazi sympathy.


Defending someone's right to speak their mind is not the same as defending their beliefs. There is a clear difference between the two. I had hoped that you, of all people, actually knew the difference between the two. 

Not condemning someone does not equate condoning them.

Freedom of speech is absolute. Either everyone have it, or no one have it. That being said, no one have the right to be heard. They are not entitled a platform to speak their mind. No one is entitled anything. Ever. 

Bless your heart regardless, mate.


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> @Crimson_Steel17
> 
> This is the kind of person you find yourself allied with.
> One that thinks the gas chambers, mass graves and Holocaust death count, were made up or exaggerated by evil Jewish conspirators, because he watched a youtube video called "synagogoue of satan"



Did i say all zionists are jews? its a political extremist movement yeah there may be a lot of jews or fake jews in it but doesn't mean that they all are, also i have watched many many videos concerning conspiracies, that was just the main one i chose coz its 5 hours long.



Fallowfox said:


> I did watch PewDiePie's original videos. His antisemitic comments are just crass jokes, rather than sincere beliefs, and indeed, that's all that news outlets represented them as.
> He lost his partnership with Disney's Maker studios because they were crass jokes.
> 
> Duster's version of the Holocaust is so revised and different to the actual Holocaust that a belief in his alternative version is essentially a denial that the real Holocaust took place.
> This is sort of obvious, because it is implicit in Duster's statement that Jewish conspirators contrived an exaggerated and fake version of the Holocaust in order to garner sympathy to justify their empiric ambitions.



The only thing felix has done that could be considered antisemetic was the "death to all jews", everything else was just nazi stuff, like comparing youtube heros to nazis, i myself am bored with nazi jokes as its so overused, there are many evil groups and people he and others who do it could of used, but poking fun at nazis has been done to death, thats why he did the fiver thing, he pushed it to the extreme because that is all thats funny anymore, pushing it to the nth degree.

How is what i'm saying basically denying the holocaust, my point is, the jews get all the sympathy, yet everyone else who were killed are not recognized, who says what you think is the real holocaust is the truth? nobody knows what truly happened as history is written by the winners, just because some school book says something doesnt make it true, what so you think the people of easter island just went out in canoes in the middle of the pacific then found the island that funny enough is shaped like those triangular stealth fighter jets and started making giant statues 1000 years ago? even though the statues are like half buried, which shows that they are very very old.
Western history is on par with any empires propaganda, like say north korea, think for yourself man, dont just go by what anyone says, either look at both sides, or just stick to your bubble of what you think or was taught is right which is clearly what you are doing, there really is no point to even reply to you anymore, you are incapable of critical thinking.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Again, I am going to ask you to refrain from personal attacks, insults, and heavily suggesting someone is a Nazi/Nazi sympathiser. Doesn't matter whether you actually believe what you're saying, or not.
> 
> Defending someone's right to speak their mind is not the same as defending their beliefs. There is a clear difference between the two. I had hoped that you, of all people, actually knew the difference between the two.
> 
> ...



Read his posts; he suggested watching the 'synagogue of satan' video, which is obviously sympathetic to antisemitic and Neo Nazi perspectives. 

You keep on saying you're just defending his right to speak, as if anybody was ever opposing this. 
I am using my freedom of speech to criticise the conspiracy theories he is trying to spread. 
Freedom of speech guarantees your right to denounce ideologies you think are harmful.


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Read his posts; he suggested watching the 'synagogue of satan' video, which is obviously sympathetic to antisemitic and Neo Nazi perspectives.
> 
> You keep on saying you're just defending his right to speak, as if anybody was ever opposing this.
> I am using my freedom of speech to criticise the conspiracy theories he is trying to spread.
> Freedom of speech guarantees your right to denounce ideologies you think are harmful.



Ya do realize i said that some of the stuff in the video is fishy right? you have to take everything with a grain of salt.
I question any and everything, unless its clear fact, like the sky is blue, you are basically calling me a nazi sympathizer and neo-nazi, ya know slander isn't very nice nor is it a good idea while trying to have a debate...


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Read his posts; he suggested watching the 'synagogue of satan' video, which is obviously sympathetic to antisemitic and Neo Nazi perspectives.
> 
> You keep on saying you're just defending his right to speak, as if anybody was ever opposing this.
> I am using my freedom of speech to criticise the conspiracy theories he is trying to spread.
> Freedom of speech guarantees your right to denounce ideologies you think are harmful.


He suggested watching the video so you can do research, mate, which you don't seem to have done, unfortunately.

There is a difference between denouncing an ideology or ideologies that you find harmful, and attacking, insulting and strawmanning everyone you don't disagree with/don't join you in your crusade on getting rid of ideologies you don't find appropriate. Attacking people willy-nilly who believe in an ideology you find harmful is not how you are to behave in a civilized society. I do not condone political violence, regardless of who you are attacking, or how justified you personally feel you are, of attacking them.

Again, I will ask you to take it down a notch. You're not exactly going to convince anyone by personal attacks and insults, let alone implying that someone is a Nazi/Nazi sympathiser.

If this continues, I'm going to have to ask an admin to lock the thread, as it's completely gone offtopic.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Did i say all zionists are jews? its a political extremist movement yeah there may be a lot of jews or fake jews in it but doesn't mean that they all are, also i have watched many many videos concerning conspiracies, that was just the main one i chose coz its 5 hours long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think this view that the Jews 'get all the sympathy for the holocaust' is right; it's widely known and appreciated that homosexuals, slavs, gypsies and the disabled were persecuted in Nazi occupied Europe. Maybe the conspiracy videos you watch tell you that people only have sympathy for the Jews, but that's simply not true. 

The talking points you refer to are famous because of their intimate association with Holocaust denial. Indeed Holocaust deniers often disingenuously represent themselves as historical revisionists in order to obscure their denialism and pretend that they are academics. 

That's why prominent groups known for Holocaust denial go by monikers such as the 'Institute for Historical review'. If you dig beneath the surface though, you will soon discover that they frequently reference people who deny the Holocaust, or who have antisemitic agendas. That's their real motive. 
Institute for Historical Review - Wikipedia


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## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Ya do realize i said that some of the stuff in the video is fishy right? you have to take everything with a grain of salt.
> I question any and everything, unless its clear fact, like the sky is blue, you are basically calling me a nazi sympathizer and neo-nazi, ya know slander isn't very nice nor is it a good idea while trying to have a debate...


Fallow's words were:

"I don't think Duster is a Nazi or a Nazi sympathiser.
It's a fact though, that the conspiracy theories he believes in are Neo Nazi propaganda and are a part of wider Holocaust denial and historical revisionism."

I think that's fair to say considering what I've seen you write so far. He did say that he didn't think you were a Nazi sympathiser, so it's silly for you to continually bring it up.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> He suggested watching the video so you can do research, mate, which you don't seem to have done, unfortunately.
> 
> There is a difference between denouncing an ideology or ideologies that you find harmful, and attacking, insulting and strawmanning everyone you don't disagree with/don't join you in your crusade on getting rid of ideologies you don't find appropriate. Attacking people willy-nilly who believe in an ideology you find harmful is not how you are to behave in a civilized society. I do not condone political violence, regardless of who you are attacking, or how justified you personally feel you are, of attacking them.
> 
> ...



Do you really think it's appropriate to describe watching 'synagogue of satan' as 'research' ? 

I'm a little surprised that you oppose strawmanning, because I think you've been strawmanning me. I haven't suggested that freedom of speech should be withdrawn, but this you keep making arguments in favour of freedom of speech, as if I am suggesting it is a bad thing. 

Your idea of freedom of speech seems to be that anything you don't like should be off-limits and classified as political violence. 'forbidden speech'.


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## Aurorans Solis (Mar 28, 2017)

My goodness, this thread became a shitshow and a half.


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## Sagt (Mar 28, 2017)

Aurorans Solis said:


> My goodness, this thread became a shitshow and a half.


Indeed.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Ya do realize i said that some of the stuff in the video is fishy right? you have to take everything with a grain of salt.
> I question any and everything, unless its clear fact, like the sky is blue, you are basically calling me a nazi sympathizer and neo-nazi, ya know slander isn't very nice nor is it a good idea while trying to have a debate...



I said that I *don't *think you're a Nazi sympathiser. I just think that you have unwittingly accepted a lot of conspiracy theories that clearly come from Neo Nazi propaganda.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Do you really think it's appropriate to describe watching 'synagogue of satan' as 'research' ?


If you actually wanna know the source material, what is being spoken of, yes, it's called research. It's called learning to understand. Reading/watching the source material is essential to understanding it.


> I'm a little surprised that you oppose strawmanning, because I think you've been strawmanning me. I haven't suggested that freedom of speech should be withdrawn, but this you keep making arguments in favour of freedom of speech, as if I am suggesting it is a bad thing.
> 
> Your idea of freedom of speech seems to be that anything you don't like should be off-limits and classified as political violence. 'forbidden speech'.





> Attacking people willy-nilly who believe in an ideology you find harmful is not how you are to behave in a civilized society. I do not condone political violence, regardless of who you are attacking, or how justified you personally feel you are, of attacking them.


Again. There is criticizing/denouncing, and there's blatant attacks, insults and ad hominems. On the internet no one cares, as you can just close your browser.

However, going physical, aka, punching/assaulting people, is not how to behave in a civilized society. No matter how justified you feel. Respect diversity, even if you wholeheartedly disagree. Attack someone, and it being politically/ideologically motived, is called political violence.

Seeing as you can't let this rest, I am going to request an admin to lock this thread.


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> I don't think this view that the Jews 'get all the sympathy for the holocaust' is right; it's widely known and appreciated that homosexuals, slavs, gypsies and the disabled were persecuted in Nazi occupied Europe. Maybe the conspiracy videos you watch tell you that people only have sympathy for the Jews, but that's simply not true.
> 
> The talking points you refer to are famous because of their intimate association with Holocaust denial. Indeed Holocaust deniers often disingenuously represent themselves as historical revisionists in order to obscure their denialism and pretend that they are academics.
> 
> ...



Yeah they mention all the others, yet when people say holocaust, people automatically think jews, its ingrained into everyones heads, i don't consider myself a historical revisionist, more of a historical theorist, i disagree with the mainstream versions of things, look at all theories and make up my own mind on what seems most logical, yeah i am aware of people like you who are like oh no climate change is caused by man, if you disagree then you are dabbling in pseudoscience.

Who is to say that people like me have some agenda against jews? shit i hate the jews as much as i hate all of human kind, humans are a virus, but i mean you are referencing wikipedia, a lot of it is biased and caters to certain agendas.. its clear by that first part..

God damn everywhere i go i end up in fucking shit like this, i mean i just want to chill out but no, people like you who cant accept that some people actually have a mind of their own and think for themselves go and shit it all up and i end up in some stupid debate..



Fallowfox said:


> Do you really think it's appropriate to describe watching 'synagogue of satan' as 'research' ?
> 
> I'm a little surprised that you oppose strawmanning, because I think you've been strawmanning me. I haven't suggested that freedom of speech should be withdrawn, but this you keep making arguments in favour of freedom of speech, as if I am suggesting it is a bad thing.
> 
> Your idea of freedom of speech seems to be that anything you don't like should be off-limits and classified as political violence. 'forbidden speech'.



I think it is appropriate to look at all opinions, i didn't name the bloody thing, ok try the ring of power then, no you seem to be against questioning the status quo, thats what pisses me off, how is anything i don't like make me think it should be off limits or classed as political violence, i just want people to question everything...


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> If you actually wanna know the source material, what is being spoken of, yes, it's called research. It's called learning to understand. Reading/warching the source material is essential to understanding it.
> 
> 
> Again. There is criticizing/denouncing, and there's blatant attacks, insults and ad hominems. On the internet no one cares, as you can just close your browser.
> ...



Since when did I suggest that we should punch or assault people? That's an obvious strawman.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Yeah they mention all the others, yet when people say holocaust, people automatically think jews, its ingrained into everyones heads, i don't consider myself a historical revisionist, more of a historical theorist, i disagree with the mainstream versions of things, look at all theories and make up my own mind on what seems most logical, yeah i am aware of people like you who are like oh no climate change is caused by man, if you disagree then you are dabbling in pseudoscience.
> 
> Who is to say that people like me have some agenda against jews? shit i hate the jews as much as i hate all of human kind, humans are a virus, but i mean you are referencing wikipedia, a lot of it is biased and caters to certain agendas.. its clear by that first part..
> 
> ...


Jews were one of the main groups targeted by the Holocaust, and the Nazi ideology was explicit about it's belief that a Zionist conspiracy of wealthy Jews sought to take over the world. 67% of European Jews died in the holocaust; if the Nazi war machine had not been stopped then they may have been wiped out in Nazi occupied Europe all together. 
So the fact that everyone knows Jews were targeted in  the Holocaust isn't very surprising, is it? It's a bit silly to suggest people only know about this because of pro-Jewish Zionist propaganda. 

If you want to question everything, please question your own beliefs.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Since when did I suggest that we should punch or assault people? That's an obvious strawman.


I have not suggested nor made implications that you are for politicial violence, unfortunately. Go up and read again, please. I am merely making a clear distinction between online insults/attacks, and that of getting physical because of ideological/political differences, the latter being punishable by law.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 28, 2017)

Just chiming in here as someone of Ashkenazi descent with some perspective on the situation: I'm no fan of the Netanyahu administration, and I do think that the United States has used kid gloves on Israel despite clear evidence of war crimes on their part, but this is not some kind of world Zionist conspiracy; to the contrary, if I'm being *very* cynical here, it's more like a friendly buffer state against the scary, scary brown people full of disposable marginally white folks.

Also, fun fact about the Institute for Historical Review: They were founded by one Willis Carto, who died a few years ago at the age of 90. He was an avowed Nazi—the "neo-" prefix is inappropriate here—and often boasted of his disdain for American democracy and the irony of his having received a Purple Heart in the Pacific theatre of WWII.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Yeah but that was at the start, hitler was worried about the jews buying up all the media and shops and all that and didn't want germany to turn out like how america is today where jews have the upper hand, and that didn't even come from me,it came from milo yianopolis who is a jew himself that said jews have more of an advantage in the media and so on, but still you focus on the jews.. what about after that, when they went after the soviets and others.. is a jews life more valuable then a soviets? because thats what it seems like... as for the numbers, its all an estimate, and that goes for the death counts of like every single country/group of people so nobody really knows.
> I do question my own beliefs, ive changed many opinions over many years, i use to lean to the left,but now with the left being completely insane, i lean towards the right.



Okay so two questions, to make things nice and clear. 

Do you think that there is a Jewish conspiracy that has the USA in its clutches?

If yes, do you think that Hitler was justified to fear a Jewish plot to do the same to Germany?


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## Mandragoras (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Yeah but that was at the start, hitler was worried about the jews buying up all the media and shops and all that and didn't want germany to turn out like how america is today where jews have the upper hand, and that didn't even come from me,it came from milo yianopolis who is a jew himself that said jews have more of an advantage in the media and so on, but still you focus on the jews.. what about after that, when they went after the soviets and others.. is a jews life more valuable then a soviets? because thats what it seems like... as for the numbers, its all an estimate, and that goes for the death counts of like every single country/group of people so nobody really knows.
> I do question my own beliefs, ive changed many opinions over many years, i use to lean to the left,but now with the left being completely insane, i lean towards the right.


Bruv, the chief White House advisor is a man who is recorded in his wife's divorce filings as having not wanted his children to go to a private school with "too many Jews." Anti-Jewish hate crimes have been on the rise in the last two years, ranging from vandalism to arson to violent assault. The percentage of the population of the United States which identifies as Jewish is something like 1%, and if you look at the numbers isn't particularly economically privileged, at least any more than any other predominantly white ethnoreligious group. Hell, if you singled out Ethiopian Jews or Mizrahim, you'd probably see an unusually disadvantaged population.

Why on earth do you buy into this crap? It's simply not factual in the least.


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## Aurorans Solis (Mar 28, 2017)

The sheer amount of unreasonableness in this thread has well exceeded my threshold for involvement. However, I'd like to say a couple things that I believe may help steer this discussion in a more productive direction.

Duster, you're making defending your position very difficult for yourself. To be fair, I do not know whether your position is defendable or not, and I will not definitively state whether I believe it is or is not as I am going to refrain from taking sides here. However, I can definitively state that the statements are easily and definitely being thoroughly picked apart in a reasonable manner (mostly) by Fallowfox (props to you for that, by the way; good job). I think the easiest solution to your problem would be to present evidence supporting your opinion _while presenting your argument_, and not after the fact.

Fallowfox, do make sure to be consistent, though. If you need an explanation, one will be provided.

Yaka, it's important that you do a little more than point out argumentative fallacies. You must also present claims and supporting evidence or objective facts that show that the the points you're arguing against are either: a) wrong; or b) unreasonable.


I think that's about it. Carry on (in a more productive fashion, please).


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Okay so two questions, to make things nice and clear.
> 
> Do you think that there is a Jewish conspiracy that has the USA in its clutches?
> 
> If yes, do you think that Hitler was justified to fear a Jewish plot to do the same to Germany?



I wouldn't have a clue as to what kind of conspiracy, zionist, maybe the masons? i completely forgot to mention them, but yes there are a group who are controlling the west as a whole not just the states.

Any leader is justified to worry about their country losing their sovereignty.


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## lupi900 (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> I have not suggested nor made implications that you are for politicial violence, unfortunately. Go up and read again, please. I am merely making a clear distinction between online insults/attacks, and that of getting physical because of ideological/political differences, the latter being punishable by law.



Just put him on ignore and others, Since i know him from on the old FA forums were the rest sucked at having discussions without turning into petty arguments and never reading posts. I gave up caring when i used to be dronepeanut or something, also when i was using weasyl's forums for a while too.

As for this jontron stuff, This best example of people finding any excuse to be offended. Because I've seen others say way far worse stuff.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 28, 2017)

Okay, things have been getting way too heated here. Other posters have repeatedly asked you to tone it down, to little effect.

*So now I have to put on my mod hat* (gonna ruin my hair!)
Try to be nice when debating, or don't bother debating at all.
If I see any more of that borderline harassment some of you have been getting up to, you're looking at a forced vacation from the thread.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I wouldn't have a clue as to what kind of conspiracy, zionist, maybe the masons? i completely forgot to mention them, but yes there are a group who are controlling the west as a whole not just the states.
> 
> Any leader is justified to worry about their country losing their sovereignty.





If you aren't sure whether the alleged conspiracy ruling the west involves Jews or Free Masons (or lizard people?), then please be aware that spreading negative allegations against Jewish people (against any minority of people really, if you think about it) is dangerous, because it encourages prejudiced people to commit criminal acts against them.
There have been an increasing number of instances of vandalism of Jewish graves in the USA and Europe, as well as several bomb threats against Jewish temples over the last months.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 28, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I wouldn't have a clue as to what kind of conspiracy, zionist, maybe the masons? i completely forgot to mention them, but yes there are a group who are controlling the west as a whole not just the states.
> 
> Any leader is justified to worry about their country losing their sovereignty.


0-0

Did you just cite the Masonic conspiracy theory unironically?


lupi900 said:


> As for this jontron stuff, This best example of people finding any excuse to be offended. Because I've seen others say way far worse stuff.


I mean, so have I, and I still think what the man said was rock-stupid and worth a solid eye-roll at minimum. What's your point?


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> 0-0
> 
> Did you just cite the Masonic conspiracy theory unironically?
> 
> I mean, so have I, and I still think what the man said was rock-stupid and worth a solid eye-roll at minimum. What's your point?


My grandpa was a mason, plus i mean god if you think its all a joke, you dont know much about it


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## DusterBluepaw (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> Quoth the Site Code of Conduct:
> 
> "1.8
> *Do not engage in malicious speech.*
> This includes bigotry and disparaging remarks or content about anyone's race, ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, etc. This does not apply to fictional works."



how is it malicious? i mean damn if my family died of an air strike from the us i woudd do everything in my opower tio get revenge


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 28, 2017)

If you can't see how your post constitutes malicious speech, Duster, do yourself a favor and stop talking. You're only going to dig yourself a deeper hole at this rate.

I am this close >||< to just closing this thread altogether. Keep that in mind as you continue posting. *All of you.*


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> Quoth the Site Code of Conduct:
> 
> "1.8
> *Do not engage in malicious speech.*
> This includes bigotry and disparaging remarks or content about anyone's race, ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, etc. This does not apply to fictional works."


I am going to assume this bigotry and disparaging rule goes for ALL political views and/or ideologies?


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## Mandragoras (Mar 28, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> I am going to assume this bigotry and disparaging rule goes for ALL political views and/or ideologies?


To paraphrase Karl Popper, one of the core precepts of a liberal democracy is that the only acceptable form of intolerance be that of intolerance—not in the sense that the state should censor hateful speech, as that would be a violation of the spirit of a free society, but that one is obliged to speak out against hatefulness, as it tends to work less as "speech" than a tacit form of intimidation.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> To paraphrase Karl Popper, one of the core precepts of a liberal democracy is that the only acceptable form of intolerance be that of intolerance—not in the sense that the state should censor hateful speech, as that would be a violation of the spirit of a free society, but that one is obliged to speak out against hatefulness, as it tends to work less as "speech" than a tacit form of intimidation.


Good to know where you stand, mate. ^^


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> To paraphrase Karl Popper, one of the core precepts of a liberal democracy is that the only acceptable form of intolerance be that of intolerance—not in the sense that the state should censor hateful speech, as that would be a violation of the spirit of a free society, but that one is obliged to speak out against hatefulness, as it tends to work less as "speech" than a tacit form of intimidation.



This is why I find it so disturbing that few 'alt-righters'* refuse to denounce the obvious hateful elements that exist in their midst.
It fosters a space where hateful people feel they can be safe from challenges to their perspective, and it encourages them to disseminate hateful commentary.

It is also quite perplexing that they refuse to denounce these elements so often, because I have seen many people on the alt-right demand that random Muslims denounce the actions of Islamist extremists thousands of miles away.
Perhaps the alt-right doesn't want to denounce this sort of behaviour because they think doing so would be tantamount to an admission that their community has been irreparably infected with prejudice...but sticking their head in the sand won't make this problem go away.

*(and I know the people who I describe with this term will object to it, but I am using it for want of anything better)


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## KimberVaile (Mar 28, 2017)

-If this argument happened in the 13th century.

That court Jester Jonapult is literally worse than Ghengis Khan! Did you hear the inflammatory things he said about Lord Albert's estate? He implied that the position of the peasantry was self imposed from a lack of education! He's no better than the Mongol Khannate, I bet that Jonapult would defect to those treacherous Mongols in a heartbeat if he had the chance!


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## KimberVaile (Mar 28, 2017)

I'm pretty sick of hearing about World War 2 for the millionth time, if you couldn't tell. It'd be great if we could stop equating slightly controversial opinions (what Jontron said in his first video wasn't even that controversial tbh) with the most recent massive tragedy committed in recent memory. Though of course that's asking for too much, at the very least have some variation on the types of irredeemable evil twats you want to equate somebody too. I've begun to hate even mentioning or thinking about World War 2 because of the amount of modern cringe it is associated with.


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## AshenWolf (Mar 28, 2017)

They should ban politics talk


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## Fallowfox (Mar 28, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm pretty sick of hearing about World War 2 for the millionth time, if you couldn't tell. It'd be great if we could stop equating slightly controversial opinions (what Jontron said in his first video wasn't even that controversial tbh) with the most recent massive tragedy committed in recent memory. Though of course that's asking for too much, at the very least have some variation on the types of irredeemable evil twats you want to equate somebody too. I've begun to hate even mentioning or thinking about World War 2 because of the amount of modern cringe it is associated with.



Most of the discussion of WWII in this thread erupted after Duster said that he thought that the Gas chambers are Zionist propaganda.
It is depressing how regularly I see members of the alt right expressing views like this. (and how rarely anybody else on the alt right ever actually criticise them for it).

We are presented with a situation in which a not-insignificant number of people want to revise history with their alternative facts. We have to resist their efforts to spread these conspiracies because they are commonly cited justifications for discrimination against Jewish people even in the 21st century. :\


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## KimberVaile (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> Most of the discussion of WWII in this thread erupted after Duster said that he thought that the Gas chambers are Zionist propaganda.
> It is depressing how regularly I see members of the alt right expressing views like this. (and how rarely anybody else on the alt right ever actually criticise them for it).
> 
> We are presented with a situation in which a not-insignificant number of people want to revise history with their alternative facts. We have to resist their efforts to spread these conspiracies because they are commonly cited justifications for discrimination against Jewish people even in the 21st century. :\



I'm speaking generally. I'm aware Duster set the precedent, followed by a few cringey ween posts.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Mar 28, 2017)

Fallowfox said:


> It's just mind boggling really, that you guys don't seem to bat an eye lid that almost every time that these discussions come up, a user ends up revealing that they believe the Holocaust was fabricated.
> It's even more surprising that you'll continue agreeing with these users even after they reveal how nuts they are, so long as they support your favourite youtubers.
> You just kind of ignore it and carry on. If somebody says they think the Holocaust is fabricated, _none of you care_, but if somebody says they think Sargon of Akkad made a mistake in a youtube video, the torrent of critical responses is_ unending_.
> ._.
> ...



I've already told you this before my amigo

Even if someone holds controversial opinions and is often wrong on some fact or another doesn't mean everything they do, say or think should be invalidated. We're all human and we do make mistakes

Also why doesn't anyone ever use the Armenian genocide as an example? All I ever hear about is the holocaust when people want to make such obscene comparisons but no one ever uses something equally as bad (Armenian genocide) or hell, something even worse

Stalin's dictatorship


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> I've already told you this before my amigo
> 
> Even if someone holds controversial opinions and is often wrong on some fact or another doesn't mean everything they do, say or think should be invalidated. We're all human and we do make mistakes
> 
> ...


Communism in general, really. Tens of millions dead. I heard some 90 million or some crazyass number.

~Edit~
www.scottmanning.com: Communist Body Count 
HOLY CRAP.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 28, 2017)

I mean, the issue at hand is that two people in this thread have blatantly violated that site's rules of conduct, one by asserting that an act of genocide was at least partly fabricated and the other by outright asserting that it was justified and then making harassing comments toward several other users including myself for pointing these things out.

There's a difference between mere bad opinions and apologism for mass murder. This would apply to the Great Purge or the Armenian Genocide as well—which, if you've ever run into a tankie or a hardline Turkish nationalist, you've probably seen denial of—and it applies here.


Yakamaru said:


> Communism in general, really. Tens of millions dead. I heard some 90 million or some crazyass number.


Less often genocide, more often terrible implementation of farming policy and subsequent mass starvation.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 28, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> Less often genocide, more often terrible implementation of farming policy and subsequent mass starvation.


Terrible governmental systems that are implementing bad polices, are basically the same as unintentional murder/mass murder. Pretty sure the government would be on trial for unintentional murder, if the government were a person, anyway.


Mandragoras said:


> I mean, the issue at hand is that two people in this thread have blatantly violated that site's rules of conduct, one by asserting that an act of genocide was at least partly fabricated and the other by outright asserting that it was justified and then making harassing comments toward several other users including myself for pointing these things out.


No. What was said, was that some numbers may have been exaggerated, like the 6 million Jews, to make it look like the Nazis were more evil than what they MAY have been. Nothing is implied here. Only questioned. Questioning things are not against the rules.

Personally, I will be going by actual records and the numbers given, but like with everything, I will not take everything as fact, especially not when documents and other historical information on details are scarce, at best.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 28, 2017)

I am locking this thread for administrative review, due to a number of reports having been made about it.


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