# Races and classes in RPGs/MMOs



## WolfoxOkamichan (Sep 7, 2009)

Why put restrictions for a race and the classes it can be? Isn't it... retarded? Yeah, sure, a hobbit would make a strange Paladin, but still it would nice to see and a good alternative. Lizardfolk mages may mean lesser INT and MP at the start but gives an alternative, "sturdier" mage.


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## Nezumi7 (Sep 7, 2009)

I have to agree. I've found class restrictions silly for the most part for races. Part of the reason why I liked EQ2 (y'know... even though it's not that good still), is that anyone can be anything. I <3'd my Iskar Monk. He was pure unadulterated win.

Even if a certain race/class combo makes no sense, and as a whole kind of... eh... fails altogether, it should still be an option. Granted a highly unused option, but an option none-the-less.

Case in point. (Not an MMO example, but still)

Back when I was playing D&D 3.5, I decided to have a bit of fun and roll up an orc wizard. Max strength, shoddy intellect, instead of wielding magical staves and wands and what have you he tore things apart with his greataxe (which in a mage's hands with bonuses -- not so great XD) after flinging spells to soften the enemy up.

Other players didn't understand why I made him. 'There's a lot of better choices' or 'it makes no sense you can have *INSERT BONUSES HERE*' and especially 'lolnoobusuxx0rzlol!!11one!'.

I'm... still not sure how they managed to say that last one in actual speech, but I digress.

I made him because *I WANTED TO*. To try something different. To put a different spin on something. And yeah, at the beginning, he wasn't very effective. He was just a bad warrior who could magic missile something on occassion.

But!

The magic of role-playing kicked in. As he leveled up, he gained more points in his intellect. His spell capacity grew, and he learned how to fight as a mage, and how to use his strengths and weaknesses to their greatest effect. He was probably one of my favorite characters ever, because he grew on his own, with his own personality and goals and what have you.

The same applies to MMO's. Even if that option would *NEVER* get taken, it should still be there. Why can't my orc be a paladin in WoW? Why can't my feral character in PSO be a technique user instead of a fist fighter? 

That's one of the great things (and *possibly* the only great thing) about FFXI. Whatever you play, you can be whatever you damn well please. Hardcore burly Galka black mage? Roll with it. Cocky tiny Tarutaru warrior? Kick ass. Obvious human knockoff being a obvious ranger knockoff from every other role playing game ever? Generic, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Some people'll say it's against 'lore' or something. That's not hard to fix. UPDATE YOUR LORE. Make up a reason. It's your damn story y'know.

All and all though, overall, it'd be nice to see more choice in my MMO's. Granted, we *need* more decent MMO's out there. Something not World of Warcraft (don't get me wrong, I still like the game, but it's a tad disturbing that there's like... zero competition).

But that's my (long-ass) opinion. GIVE US MORE CHOICES REGARDLESS OF GAME!!!

...AND A ONLINE VERSION OF FINAL FANTASY TACTICS! I would *LOVE* to get my bangaa white monk (or bishop) on in real time. XD


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## WolfoxOkamichan (Sep 7, 2009)

Wizardry 8 also makes use of this quite well. Some races are good at certain classes, but they don't mind a race being on something they're not good at. You can still buff their starting stats, but they'll be in the "Apprentice" class until specific stats are met.


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## Panzermanathod (Sep 7, 2009)

Well I can't say Mabinogi offers such limitations. Your giant will suck at magic but at least you can still make a Giant Mage. There are limitations, but really in terms of how some skills are set up as well as class exclusives. Nothing's keeping you from making an Elf Warrior or a Ranged Giant.

I didn't mention Humans because humans can kinda do whatever they want without much trouble.


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## Tycho (Sep 7, 2009)

Why are humans always the "jack-of-all-trades" race?


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## furrygamer84 (Sep 7, 2009)

in final fantasy 11 all the races can be any class. I was a mithra red mage mostly and always switched classes cause I would get bored of one


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## Nezumi7 (Sep 7, 2009)

Indeed. One of the reasons I really, *REALLY* wanted to like FFXI. The sheer customizability.

That and chocobos.

I... I just tried this game so many times, and it hurt me every single time.

I don't wanna have to grind rabbits forever and a day just to get to level 2. And I don't want to have to take five minutes to murder each one except for once every two hours where you can make things die faster.

Hopefully they'll fix this in XIV. I'd be willing to give it one more try.


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## Takun (Sep 7, 2009)

I think all races should be allowed all classes... but then add penalties that make sense for classes.


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## Asswings (Sep 7, 2009)

It's so you faggots don't all just play the same race.

It makes your world prettier and more colourful if you have people playing all sorts of races... Yet if you allow all races to be every class, you get people playing only one race.  So they make it so some races can't be some things. Pretty simple, and I like how the system works.


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## Dyluck (Sep 7, 2009)

*RACISM*


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## furrygamer84 (Sep 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> *RACISM*


MITHRA POWER, WE ARE THE SUPERIOR RACE

except that there are no males so our race is going to end soon...


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 7, 2009)

I hate that dragons are always portrayed as evil, and so you can never play as them...or people afraid they might be "too powerful"...


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## Stratelier (Sep 7, 2009)

Nezumi7 said:


> I don't wanna have to grind rabbits forever and a day just to get to level 2. And I don't want to have to take five minutes to murder each one except for once every two hours where you can make things die faster.


You weren't trying that solo, were you?



Ty Vulpine said:


> I hate that dragons are always portrayed as evil, and so you can never play as them...or people afraid they might be "too powerful"...


"I'm sorry.  I can't hear that over the sound of how awesome I am."







Ty Vulpine said:


> I hate that dragons are always portrayed as evil, and so you can never play as them...or people afraid they might be "too powerful"...


But seriously....

Y'know, there was at least one MMO that attempted to do that (pretty sure it was a text based MMO), however their dragons were so saddled with limitations for gameplay reasons... for example dragons were shapeshifters so any "player dragon" was limited to "human form" until about Lv.30 or some such elite threshold.  At which they gained a "draconian" (half-dragon) like form, but still couldn't transform into a BIG FREAKIN' DRAGON until like Lv.50 or some super obsessive threshold....

Maybe if dragons didn't always stand 20 feet tall and weigh 2000+ pounds, more developers would consider them for player roles.  Why don't they make, say, wolf-sized dragons?  Something that's about the same size/strength as a player character, that would not make tip the balance of gameplay.  It's all about miniaturization these days.


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 7, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> "Sorry.  I can't hear that over the sound of how awesome I am."



The only RPG game I know of where you can play as a dragon as the main character is Dragon Rage on the PS2...*shrug*


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## Envy (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Why are humans always the "jack-of-all-trades" race?



Agh, that always bugged me too.

Looking at humans, they tend to be excellent in terms of intelligence and dexterity, above average in constitution or endurance, and pathetic in terms of strength, agility, and the majority of physical skills. Essentially, a perfect mage class.

Yet, their always the 'default' race with average prowess in all attributes. Why? It's a rathe anthropocentric viewpoint, I think.


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## JMAA (Sep 7, 2009)

I always think that race-class thing is about nerfing someone that feels autoritary (HAY I HAEV +100 STRENGTH BECUZ IM A WARRIOR LULZ U SUK).


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## Bacu (Sep 7, 2009)

Envy said:


> Agh, that always bugged me too.
> 
> Looking at humans, they tend to be excellent in terms of intelligence and dexterity, above average in constitution or endurance, and pathetic in terms of strength, agility, and the majority of physical skills. Essentially, a perfect mage class.
> 
> Yet, their always the 'default' race with average prowess in all attributes. Why? It's a rathe anthropocentric viewpoint, I think.


The elves couldn't be reached for their opinion on the matter.


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## Attaman (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Why are humans always the "jack-of-all-trades" race?


  Because it's pretty rare to find an Elvish Necromancer, or a Dwarven Druid, or a Halfling Paladin.  Sure, each of these _happens_ from time-to-time, but it's one of those things so rare it's like preparing a tank company to fight off a lost battalion of Napoleonic Soldiers.

Humans will do basically _anything_ (professionally, physically, and sexually).  Dwarves tend to be honor-bound reclusive drunkards who love mining stuff to trade for more ale (which is never as good as their own).  Elves love to spend the first few centuries of their life making art and being eco-dicks that by the time someone reaches the proper age to start adventuring they could play a full band if cloned enough times.  Halflings are laid back isolationists as well who seem to only leave the comfort of their homes for celebration or because they need to restuff their pantries, so a Halfling Crusader is pretty unlikely.  Gnomes... well, Gnomes are just crazy.


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 7, 2009)

Play Everquest or Everquest 2.  Any race can be any class.  Evil races can even be non-evil classes, through betrayal.


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## Twylyght (Sep 7, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> The only RPG game I know of where you can play as a dragon as the main character is Dragon Rage on the PS2...*shrug*



There is also Horizon.  In the beginning, the dragons were supposed to have different classes too, but when the game went live, that idea was dropped.  They said it would make the dragons too powerful.  They only had 2 classes, crafter and warrior.  Sure, there were two factions.  There was very little difference between the two.  Near the end, they gave the dragons the ability to lairshape, but that was it.


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## Nezumi7 (Sep 7, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> You weren't trying that solo, were you?



Yes. Yes I was. No one else was... eh... playing. So yeah. I made a Galka but there was like... no one on.

Then I buckled, deleted him, made an elvaan (sp?), and saw there were TWO WHOLE OTHER PEOPLE ON.

Who were bots.

Mmmmyep.


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## Digitalpotato (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Why are humans always the "jack-of-all-trades" race?



Have you seen what other races were?



Ticon said:


> It's so you faggots don't all just play the same race.



THIS. Holy crap THIS. Seriously the D&D group I tried to like was not only obsessed with spellcasters (Primarily of the Cleric and Druid variety), but their groups consisted of Yuan Ti and Drows. :/ I asked the DM and they seriously have done *NOTHING* but Yuan-Ti and Drows. My Wu Jen was literally the first human. (And doesn't a Drow Shugenja seem a bit...uh....) 

Even in games like World of Warcraft, if you gave the undead Hunters and shamans, you'd *never* have seen anything that wasn't undead other than the occasional anomaly like Orc hunter and Troll mage. (Yes, troll mages existed and still do.)


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 7, 2009)

Ticon said:


> It's so you faggots don't all just play the same race.
> 
> It makes your world prettier and more colourful if you have people playing all sorts of races... Yet if you allow all races to be every class, you get people playing only one race.  So they make it so some races can't be some things. Pretty simple, and I like how the system works.




Actually I've found it to be quite the opposite.  But I guess that's just Everquest 2.



Digitalpotato said:


> Even in games like World of Warcraft, if you gave the undead Hunters and shamans, you'd *never* have seen anything that wasn't undead other than the occasional anomaly like Orc hunter and Troll mage. (Yes, troll mages existed and still do.)


 

I loved my troll mage, back when I played WoW.


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## Dyluck (Sep 7, 2009)

I thought about it some more, and in my experience with games with races (most FF Tactics Advance and A2), each race has their own job sets (with a little overlap between races, i.e. Black Mage, Warrior, and other basic jobs), but with the way the variety is set up, each class gets jobs specialised for their skill set (e.g. Bangaa are mostly warrior classes), but also a few jobs for areas that they don't excel in (e.g. Bangaas have a couple of spell-caster classes).  For a game with races that have pretty drastically different stats, I think this system works better than letting any race take on any job.



furrygamer84 said:


> MITHRA POWER, WE ARE THE SUPERIOR RACE
> 
> except that there are no males so our race is going to end soon...



Canonically, there are male Mithra, but there are no in-game models for them because they don't go adventuring.

The more you know!



Ty Vulpine said:


> I hate that dragons are always portrayed as evil, and so you can never play as them...or people afraid they might be "too powerful"...



There should be an MMO where _everyone_ is dragons and they all just beat the shit out of each other in the most brutal ways possible.


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## Ty Vulpine (Sep 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> There should be an MMO where _everyone_ is dragons and they all just beat the shit out of each other in the most brutal ways possible.



For once we agree. That game would rock. :3


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## Ibuuyk (Sep 7, 2009)

Yay for Orc Mages whose best spell's to throw their magic books at the enemy!


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## Tycho (Sep 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Canonically, there are male Mithra, but there are no in-game models for them because they don't go adventuring.
> 
> The more you know!



The bastards at Squeenix are holding out on us.  I want a male nekomimi character, dammit.

Also, kill the fucking grind, Squeenix, FFXI was BRUTAL about grinding and death penalties.  That's what made me give up on FFXI.


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Also, kill the fucking grind, Squeenix, FFXI was BRUTAL about grinding and death penalties.  That's what made me give up on FFXI.




Have you been reading _anything _about FFXIV?


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## Seas (Sep 7, 2009)

I prefer games that let you adjust your character's attributes and skills, instead of a class system.
See: Elder Scrolls series, Mount&Blade, etc.

And I like having many choices in species. Especially if there are reptile ones :3


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## Tycho (Sep 7, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> Have you been reading _anything _about FFXIV?



No, not rly, I wasn't even aware it existed until a couple weeks ago, and I just sorta filed it away mentally thinking "oh boy, moar grind".  I don't think they're even changing the races, except in name.

I'd be mildly interested in seeing the finished product, I guess.  I'm mostly still bitter about being horribly pummeled by "Even Match" mobs while playing my WAR/MNK/WHM.  Seriously, what the shit.

EDIT: not WAR/MNK/WHM, WAR/WHM who also took MNK levels to supplant the WAR levels in an effort to try and compete with EM Yagudos.


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## Digitalpotato (Sep 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> There should be an MMO where _everyone_ is dragons and they all just beat the shit out of each other in the most brutal ways possible.



It'd probably have to be based on dragonriders.  for some reason everybody loves dragonriders.


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## Dyluck (Sep 7, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> It'd probably have to be based on dragonriders.  for some reason everybody loves dragonriders.



Fuck that shit.  No riders.  Just DRAGONS


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## Daniel Kay (Sep 7, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> I hate that dragons are always portrayed as evil, and so you can never play as them...or people afraid they might be "too powerful"...



That's one thing that scares me away from MANY games, if a dragon is in it you HAVE to kill it OR it becomes a mindless pet.

Also annoyed me how some people advertise to me:
"Hey you like dragons, this game has dragons"
"Cool, can you play them?"
"Wha, no you just kill them... but it HAS dragons"




David M. Awesome said:


> Fuck that shit.  No riders.  Just DRAGONS


So... damn... seconded...
Why are dragons just good as gun fooder OR mindless pets/transports and not as the main characters... and no, as main characters not just the sickenly cute faction (sorry Spyro).


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 7, 2009)

Daniel Kay said:


> Why are dragons just good as gun fooder OR mindless pets/transports and not as the main characters... and no, as main characters not just the sickenly cute faction (sorry Spyro).




Because it's funny.  I liked in Morrowind when they were slaves.


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## Attaman (Sep 7, 2009)

Daniel Kay said:


> Why are dragons just good as gun fooder OR mindless pets/transports and not as the main characters... and no, as main characters not just the sickenly cute faction (sorry Spyro).


  Probably because most games tend to have at least one human-sized faction.  Which makes it a bit difficult to include a species that grows several dozen meters in length with a torso as large as a house.

Pandemonium (an old PSX game) lets you play as a Dragon for a short bit, but it's only at limited areas and not until later in the game.  Basically, it's a mini-game.  Final Fantasy Tactics also lets you have a "Dragon" in your party ("Dragon" because it's a human cursed to that form, but still a Dragon).  Can't think of too many games that let you play as _just_ a dragon, though.  Probably has something to do with the balance of "having fun" and "not being stupid overpowered".


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## Tycho (Sep 7, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> Because it's funny.  I liked in Morrowind when they were slaves.



wat?

Argonians =/= dragons.



Attaman said:


> Probably because most games tend to have at least one human-sized faction.  Which makes it a bit difficult to include a species that grows several dozen meters in length with a torso as large as a house.
> 
> Pandemonium (an old PSX game) lets you play as a Dragon for a short bit, but it's only at limited areas and not until later in the game.  Basically, it's a mini-game.  Final Fantasy Tactics also lets you have a "Dragon" in your party ("Dragon" because it's a human cursed to that form, but still a Dragon).  Can't think of too many games that let you play as _just_ a dragon, though.  Probably has something to do with the balance of "having fun" and "not being stupid overpowered".



Ogre Battle had dragons.  They were largely crap, but it had them.  Main use for them (for any of the large-size creature units) was to give a unit a more useful terrain advantage/movement ability (using gryphons or wyrms or whatever for low/high sky movement for example).


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## Dyluck (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Ogre Battle had dragons.  They were largely crap, but it had them.  Main use for them (for any of the large-size creature units) was to give a unit a more useful terrain advantage/movement ability (using gryphons or wyrms or whatever for low/high sky movement for example).



Hawk Men party was actually pretty good, combat-wise.


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## Tycho (Sep 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Hawk Men party was actually pretty good, combat-wise.



3 Hawk Men grunts up front, a cleric and a wizard in back = solid unit in early game.  Great way to cap towns and temples in a hurry.


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## Dyluck (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> 3 Hawk Men grunts up front, a cleric and a wizard in back = solid unit in early game.  Great way to cap towns and temples in a hurry.



And also my number one sexual fantasy.  I'm the wizard.


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## Tycho (Sep 7, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> And also my number one sexual fantasy.  I'm the wizard.



Keep plenty of Emperor cards so you can go for extra turns.


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 7, 2009)

Tycho said:


> wat?
> 
> Argonians =/= dragons.




Dragons are just big lizards.  That's what Argonians are.  So Argonians = dragons.


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## Daniel Kay (Sep 7, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> Dragons are just big lizards.  That's what Argonians are.  So Argonians = dragons.



Well seeing as there ARE dragons in TES lore and dragons =/= Argonians that is wrong.

Besides there could be anthro dragons in games, everyone just thinks of the huge feral ones but forget there could be anthro versions too


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 7, 2009)

But anthropomorphic _anything _kills the fun factor of a game.


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## Rifter (Sep 7, 2009)

Humans are the jack-of-all-trades race because we _are, _at least in relation to the other denizens of this planet. Most other species on the planet are built with a focus on a single task, mind and body - We could never hope to compete with most of them on a level playing field. Our diversity of thought is what makes us powerful, and most fantasy worlds reflect this. Humans are usually depicted as a rapidly growing race with a bright future whilst the dwarves and elves sit on the sidelines doing the exact same things they've been doing for hundreds, even thousands of years.  This also explains why you don't see more diversity in class options. Sure, you'll see a gnome priest or an elven berserker ever now and again, but they're supposed to be unique. When any schmuck can create a character like that, the defining traits of a race are quickly muddied. You'll be able to see an example of this in WoW's upcoming expansion - _Really _curious as to how they plan on explaining those gnome priests.

As for dragons, they're always being killed because they make incredibly imposing villains. They're massive, long lived, often magically gifted and far, far wiser than the average mortal. Having too many of them on the side of good would just trivialize things. Citing another example from Warcraft, this is probably why the dragon aspects are either losing their minds one by one or staying out of mortal affairs completely: Any large scale intervention on their part would leave no room for mortal heroics. You could make a case for toning them down or even anthropomorphizing them, but that just turns them into handsome lizards. A dragon isn't a dragon without that sense of power and majesty.


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## CryoScales (Sep 7, 2009)

Rifter said:


> Humans are the jack-of-all-trades race because we _are, _at least in relation to the other denizens of this planet. Most other species on the planet are built with a focus on a single task, mind and body - We could never hope to compete with most of them on a level playing field. Our diversity of thought is what makes us powerful, and most fantasy worlds reflect this. Humans are usually depicted as a rapidly growing race with a bright future whilst the dwarves and elves sit on the sidelines doing the exact same things they've been doing for hundreds, even thousands of years



Yeah I have to agree. Humans are adaptable to do almost anything because of how our bodies and brains are designed. Most species's bodies are designed to do one specific thing. For example, almost all Orcs have large muscles and large bodies perfect for bashing a skull in. 

Humans however are a very weak race. Our bodies are fleshie and we bleed very easily. However our brains are designed so we don't give up easily and go with our emotions. Because of that we can adapt to any extreme and there for are a more balanced race.


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## Attaman (Sep 7, 2009)

Daniel Kay said:


> Besides there could be anthro dragons in games, everyone just thinks of the huge feral ones but forget there could be anthro versions too


  Problem with that is:
1)  Dragons are already anthropomorphic. :v
2)  Most mythological dragons are seen as something big and imposing, or small and capricious.  If they want to go subtle, they take human form - not humanoid dragon (because Kobolds are so well tolerated by non-Kobolds).  If there is a more human-like dragon that looks that way at all times, it's not what most people think of when they hear dragon and they get put off.  

For instance:  When I say "Minotaur", do you expect someone who looks like a human but with small horns and a bull's tail?  No, you expect an eight foot tall monstrosity that has hands bigger than your head and a face that only a mother could love. It may be called a Dragon, but most people are going to respond "That's not a Dragon".  You'd be better off labeling them something different, like Drake, Dragonkin, Wyrmling, or Wyrmblood.


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## WolfoxOkamichan (Sep 7, 2009)

The reasons why humans = jack of all trades is because we are humans. We, the audience are humans, and for some odd reason people always want to relate with the fictional character.

But don't worry, jack of all trades usually mean master of none.

And no, I doubt it would imply single race choice. I mean, do you really think everyone would go as Lizardfolk of all classes?


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## Attaman (Sep 8, 2009)

WolfoxOkamichan said:


> But don't worry, jack of all trades usually mean master of none.


  No level limit :V


> And no, I doubt it would imply single race choice. I mean, do you really think everyone would go as Lizardfolk of all classes?


On this forum?  Yes.  Yes I do.


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## Tycho (Sep 8, 2009)

While IRL the human race is a very mixed bag, on the whole I would say our strengths are not really physical.  We can become physically very powerful, but that's on a relative scale - the rest of the animal world outperforms us physically, pound for pound.  Where we shine is smarts.  There are idiots aplenty around, to be sure, but what has made us what we are today is our remarkable mind.  Opposable thumbs help somewhat, but the brain is key.  We think, we invent, we plan, we teach others.  We have a knack for figuring out new ways to do things.  We are most powerful when we use our minds to design devices that augment our abilities beyond what we or almost any other creature is capable of.  We are artificers and philosophers, chemists and tacticians.


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## CryoScales (Sep 8, 2009)

WolfoxOkamichan said:


> But don't worry, jack of all trades usually mean master of none.



Actually that is true in humanity's case. Normally their balance is useful but strictly speaking they aren't usually as good at a specific class as a species who is built toward it.


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## Fuzzeh-Richard (Sep 8, 2009)

One thing I hated about Mass Effect is that you couldn't choose a race. Sure it's awesome to be the "first" human Spectre but still, it's kinda lame :/ Otherwise, I love that game.


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## CryoScales (Sep 8, 2009)

Fuzzeh-Richard said:


> One thing I hated about Mass Effect is that you couldn't choose a race. Sure it's awesome to be the "first" human Spectre but still, it's kinda lame :/ Otherwise, I love that game.



Remember Mass Effect was Bioware's entry into original sci-fi. The entire game took 3 years to develop and they are still planning to complete their trilogy. If EA is willing I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware wanted to develop games beyond their original trilogy into other media in the Mass Effect Universe.

Besides having more then one species playable would require a LOT of re workable dialogue, plus the story would have to be changed for each specific species which would require different characters and even more dialogue. That would of course cost Bioware more cash they put into their voice acting budget, plus take up too much precious disk space. I can see why Bioware axed that idea, it is much easier on their part to have Shepard be human. Give it time and wait a little longer, eventually it will come. Be glad they allowed the various other major species's playable through your party members (Except Salarians... but the sequel already has one reported).


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## Fuzzeh-Richard (Sep 8, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Remember Mass Effect was Bioware's entry into original sci-fi. The entire game took 3 years to develop and they are still planning to complete their trilogy. If EA is willing I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware wanted to develop games beyond their original trilogy into other media in the Mass Effect Universe.
> 
> Besides having more then one species playable would require a LOT of re workable dialogue, plus the story would have to be changed for each specific species which would require different characters and even more dialogue. That would of course cost Bioware more cash they put into their voice acting budget, plus take up too much precious disk space. I can see why Bioware axed that idea, it is much easier on their part to have Shepard be human. Give it time and wait a little longer, eventually it will come. Be glad they allowed the various other major species's playable through your party members (Except Salarians... but the sequel already has one reported).


Yeah, I know that  But killing of a character you have been playing with ALOT is a kinda asshole-ish move :/ But it's a big change in the RPG genre


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## CryoScales (Sep 8, 2009)

Fuzzeh-Richard said:


> Yeah, I know that  But killing of a character you have been playing with ALOT is a kinda asshole-ish move :/ But it's a big change in the RPG genre



Shepard doesn't die in the second if you don't want him too. Shepard can only potentially die in one of the game's endings depending on player choice. But rest assured he doesn't die off like some punk. Bioware assures us that Shepard would die in a blaze of glory if you chose him to. 

So pretty much Bioware is turning it on us. Making it an asshole-ish move that WE have the potential to make.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if I chose an ending where Shepard dies. The guy kills more badguys on a daily basis then BJ Blazkowicz and still manages to shout a witty one liner like Duke Nukem.


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## Fuzzeh-Richard (Sep 8, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Shepard doesn't die in the second if you don't want him too. Shepard can only potentially die in one of the game's endings depending on player choice. But rest assured he doesn't die off like some punk. Bioware assures us that Shepard would die in a blaze of glory if you chose him to.
> 
> So pretty much Bioware is turning it on us. Making it an asshole-ish move that WE have the potential to make.
> 
> Actually I wouldn't be surprised if I chose an ending where Shepard dies. The guy kills more badguys on a daily basis then BJ Blazkowicz and still manages to shout a witty one liner like Duke Nukem.


Mhm, but from what I have heard, they are going to make you able to die in the MIDDLE of the game so not just in the ending.


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## Envy (Sep 8, 2009)

Rifter said:


> Humans are the jack-of-all-trades race because we _are, _at least in relation to the other denizens of this planet. Most other species on the planet are built with a focus on a single task, mind and body - We could never hope to compete with most of them on a level playing field. Our diversity of thought is what makes us powerful, and most fantasy worlds reflect this.




But not really... We ARE based on accomplishing a single task - inventing and using those inventions. It's just that that task happens to be incredibly useful.

The vast majority of other species are more powerful, at least physically - Bugs can fall from tremendous heights harmlessly and some posses poison. Rats are incredibly agile and can jump several times the length of their body and are incredibly, and infamously, resistant to disease. Something as weak as a housecat can outrun us despite being far smaller, are better at stretching, better at jumping, can see in the dark, and have posses retractable claws. Turtles can live for hundreds of years and are so famous for their defense they have words named after them relating to it. 

These aren't exceptional creatures by any means, just common beings. Yet they can outpreform us physically in many ways.

Sure, you could say we can use our technology to outpreform things like this in the real world, but that's the equivalent of unbalanced games in which a magic-using class starts weak but very quickly blows anything else out of the water. The Earth isn't PVP balanced in that way.


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## Daniel Kay (Sep 8, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> But anthropomorphic _anything _kills the fun factor of a game.



I'd still rather have them anthro instead of either "KILL ONLY" or humans pets/transport...


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## Tycho (Sep 8, 2009)

Daniel Kay said:


> I'd still rather have them anthro instead of either "KILL ONLY" or humans pets/transport...



Why make them anthro form-factor at all?

Who says a playable race has to have two arms and two legs and stand upright?

They would obviously have certain limitations without opposable thumbs, but you could get inventive and find workarounds for that.

Be a criosphinx-like critter with a pair of powerful tentacle arm things branching off of the shoulder area, sorta like a displacer beast.

Be a naga-esque/yuan-ti type with an extra pair of smaller arms jutting from the "pectoral" area of the "torso" to supplement the two standard arms.  Like a combination of a yuan-ti and a glabrezu.


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## JMAA (Sep 8, 2009)

As far as I can tell, I tried Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and it was a FUCKING UNHOLY MESS.
I can't barely play with all the complicated stats, controls and stuff! I just prefer a damn FPS with levels like Gunz rather than a piece of shit like this.
Oh, Loki fails too.


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## Attaman (Sep 8, 2009)

Envy said:


> The vast majority of other species are more powerful, at least physically


  Than the average 1st World human?  Yes.  Non-professional weight lifters however can and have killed grown Bucks & Cheetahs in hand-to-hand barehanded.  Humans _have_ the potential to be pretty good rivals to other animal kingdom species when it comes to physical attributes.  The issue is that few will or can take the time to train themselves to this level, putting their time into other matters such as their job, school, defending their honor on Second Life...


> Bugs can fall from tremendous heights harmlessly


  While not 'harmlessly', this man did fall nearly four miles (meaning he landed at well past "terminal" velocity) and survived for another 60 years.


> These aren't exceptional creatures by any means, just common beings. Yet they can outpreform us physically in many ways.


  And again, there are some crazy instances of human survival / feats.  Phineas Gage, anyone?  Or, for intelligence, Daniel Tammet?

Humans make perfect sense for being able to wrestle alligators, unravel the weave of magic, recite ancient lore by memory, call upon gods from excessive faith, etc.

EDIT:  Oblivion... complicated?  Oblivion is simple to understand, unless the only RPG you've played beforehand was D&D 4th Edition or a MMO.  Take a look at a D&D 3rd Edition Character Sheet some time.


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## Ozriel (Sep 8, 2009)

Star wars RPG.

Some of the races were meh...


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## Digitalpotato (Sep 8, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> But anthropomorphic _anything _kills the fun factor of a game.




So Morrowind wasn't fun? Neither were any other elder Scrolls games? Or D&D?


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## CryoScales (Sep 8, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> So Morrowind wasn't fun?



Whoa wait a moment. Your DEFENDING Morrowind? In your previous topics all you do is criticize it


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 8, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> So Morrowind wasn't fun? Neither were any other elder Scrolls games? Or D&D?



Morrowind was fun because they were all slaves and whores; things I could kill without really caring.


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## CryoScales (Sep 8, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> Morrowind was fun because they were all slaves and whores; things I could kill without really caring.



Someone's related to a big white plantation owner.


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## LotsOfNothing (Sep 8, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Someone's related to a big white plantation owner.



Nah.


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## Envy (Sep 8, 2009)

Attaman said:


> Than the average 1st World human?  Yes.  Non-professional weight lifters however can and have killed grown Bucks & Cheetahs in hand-to-hand barehanded.  Humans _have_ the potential to be pretty good rivals to other animal kingdom species when it comes to physical attributes.  The issue is that few will or can take the time to train themselves to this level, putting their time into other matters such as their job, school, defending their honor on Second Life...



But those people have trained themselves to be able to combat what those animals are able to do naturally. It's possible, sure, but not typical even in societies that have stronger, more physically fit individuals. 

Just be cause *someone* has done something, doesn't mean it's an average skill for a species.

We would have to train constantly to be able to match what other animals can do with ease. How does that make us 'average' in every area?




Attaman said:


> While not 'harmlessly', this man did fall nearly four miles (meaning he landed at well past "terminal" velocity) and survived for another 60 years. And again, there are some crazy instances of human survival / feats.  Phineas Gage, anyone?



But those are exceptions to the rule... You can't use a freak occurrence as a measure of the average of a species.


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## Attaman (Sep 8, 2009)

Envy said:


> But those people have trained themselves to be able to combat what those animals are able to do naturally.


  Not really:  Wayne was just defending his daughter, and Daniel was a 73 year old Farmer.



> Just be cause *someone* has done something, doesn't mean it's an average skill for a species.


  Considering there are several instances within the last four years alone of people unarmed or nearly unarmed killing "strong" wildlife critters (in addition to the above two, the man in Africa who managed to kill a lion with a mix of spear and bare-hand combat, and the ex-Marine who killed a bear using a log as a throwing weapon), it's not like I'm picking out a once-in-a-decade set of occurrences.

People have the problem of looking at Office Schmuck Joe, several hundred years separated from having to hunt his own food - as well as several thousand years from living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle - and saying "Well that's what the average human is and always was."  It's like taking a 60lb cattle dog and using it as an example of what wolves are capable of.



> We would have to train constantly to be able to match what other animals can do with ease. How does that make us 'average' in every area?


  Who said anything about constantly? Just add ten-to-twenty minutes a day to the average 1st World citizen's day planner set to lifting weights and another ten-to-twenty doing workouts in other fields, and you'd see a major improvement in overall health and capabilities. They wouldn't need to do this from puberty to middle-age either, though that would further increase capabilities.



> But those are exceptions to the rule... You can't use a freak occurrence as a measure of the average of a species.


  Don't worry, if I was trying to wank out humans I'd make a vague mention to us using only 10% of our brains and having at least one recorded survivor of two atomic bombs.


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## Dyluck (Sep 8, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Be a criosphinx-like critter with a pair of powerful tentacle arm things branching off of the shoulder area, sorta like a displacer beast.



I want an MMO with tentacle monsters.



JMAA said:


> As far as I can tell, I tried Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and it was a FUCKING UNHOLY MESS.
> I can't barely play with all the complicated stats, controls and stuff! I just prefer a damn FPS with levels like Gunz rather than a piece of shit like this.
> Oh, Loki fails too.



hahaha

You're stupid. :3


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## CryoScales (Sep 8, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> I want an MMO with tentacle monsters.



I don't think Cthulhu wants to pose as entertainment to pimply faced 14 year olds


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## Dyluck (Sep 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> I don't think Cthulhu wants to pose as entertainment to pimply faced 14 year olds



Little too late for that.


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## Tycho (Sep 9, 2009)

JMAA said:


> As far as I can tell, I tried Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and it was a FUCKING UNHOLY MESS.
> I can't barely play with all the complicated stats, controls and stuff! I just prefer a damn FPS with levels like Gunz rather than a piece of shit like this.
> Oh, Loki fails too.



wat.

Oblivion is nearly the polar opposite of complex when it comes to "RPG".

Go play the Incursion roguelike.  Your brain will melt from the complexity.


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## CryoScales (Sep 9, 2009)

Tycho said:


> wat.
> 
> Oblivion is nearly the polar opposite of complex when it comes to "RPG".
> 
> Go play the Incursion roguelike.  Your brain will melt from the complexity.



I don't think he expected Oblivion to be an RPG. I think he expected it to be some fantasy first person shooter where you can shoot demons with guns.

Oh wait... thats Doom. I dunno what the hell he was babbling about then. I think he doesn't even know what exactly an RPG is and expects every game in the first person to be an FPS


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## Tycho (Sep 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> I think he expected it to be some fantasy first person shooter where you can shoot demons with guns.



That's pretty much what it is.  Substitute spells and bows and nasty heavy metallic objects for guns.


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## WolfoxOkamichan (Sep 9, 2009)

Besides, each race could have a specific attribute that while normally make him or her a good mage, might actually benefit fighters, etc.


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## JMAA (Sep 9, 2009)

Tycho said:


> wat.
> 
> Oblivion is nearly the polar opposite of complex when it comes to "RPG".
> 
> Go play the Incursion roguelike.  Your brain will melt from the complexity.



You know? I played it and I felt with the "spells and melee mix" thing, that lets you become gradually any class, just plain awkward.
As for Loki, it just fails as the Diablo competence or knock-off.


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## Dyluck (Sep 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> I don't think he expected Oblivion to be an RPG. I think he expected it to be some fantasy first person shooter where you can shoot demons with guns.
> 
> Oh wait... thats Doom. I dunno what the hell he was babbling about then. I think he doesn't even know what exactly an RPG is and expects every game in the first person to be an FPS



Also, Painkiller. 8)


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## Rifter (Sep 9, 2009)

JMAA said:


> You know? I played it and I felt with the "spells and melee mix" thing, that lets you become gradually any class, just plain awkward.
> As for Loki, it just fails as the Diablo competence or knock-off.



Ah, yes. The concept of getting better at things by doing them is alien to me as well.


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## Tycho (Sep 9, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Also, Painkiller. 8)



Stake gun is one of the coolest weapons EVAR.

Nailing an opponent to a wall with a ponderosa pine delivered at high speed = sweet.


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## CryoScales (Sep 9, 2009)

JMAA said:


> You know? I played it and I felt with the "spells and melee mix" thing, that lets you become gradually any class, just plain awkward.
> As for Loki, it just fails as the Diablo competence or knock-off.



With Elder Scrolls they made the game allowed to play it how you wanted. Sure theoretically you could play a mage with a theif skill set. But you will NOT level up very well. The design was so you could only level up by leveling up your specific class skills. Just because Oblivion is not Fallout 3 doesn't make it an "overly complicated piece of shit". That sentance is wrong, Oblivion is a simplistic piece of shit. The roleplaying design is very well done on Bethesda's part however, just not the actual game.

Oblivion is NOT a complicated RPG. If you think so, I feel sorry for you and hope you never stumble across a game like Fallout 2 and have your head explode from the "complexity"


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## Attaman (Sep 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Sure theoretically you could play a mage with a theif skill set. But you will NOT level up very well.


However, you _will_ level up a lot.


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## CryoScales (Sep 9, 2009)

Attaman said:


> However, you _will_ level up a lot.



How? Playing a mage with a theif skill set will not level you up for using magic attacks


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## Attaman (Sep 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> How? Playing a mage with a theif skill set will not level you up for using magic attacks


Correct, but a focus in the fields of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Magic Skills means less starting points awarded to the thief skills.  Which means they have more maximum levels they can earn.


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## CryoScales (Sep 9, 2009)

Attaman said:


> Correct, but a focus in the fields of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Magic Skills means less starting points awarded to the thief skills.  Which means they have more maximum levels they can earn.



Wait you paid attention to stats in Oblivion? I really didn't give a shit about them except for the small bonuses they might have given me. Remember Oblivion was an easy as fucking hell game. The only thing I really cared about when playing it was getting to level 30 so I could finish all the daedric prince quests and finally prove that I had beaten that piece of shit and finally justify why I disliked it


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## Digitalpotato (Sep 9, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Whoa wait a moment. Your DEFENDING Morrowind? In your previous topics all you do is criticize it




You really don't seem to be reading well, eh?


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## Envy (Sep 10, 2009)

Attaman said:


> Not really:  Wayne was just defending his daughter and Daniel was a 73 year old Farmer.





> Villagers only responded when the animal lay dying and he gained instant status as a village hero, the paper said.
> "Wardens said the leopard attacked the man because it was injured elsewhere ... wild animals are usually very aggresive and attack unprovoked when injured," KWS spokesman Edward Indakwa told AFP.
> "Nevertheless, he was lucky," he added of the incident that occurred early this month.


The fact that this man became renouned as a hero for the action proves it is exemplary. In fact, that both were newsworthy proves that. Furthermore, in both cases it was a huge struggle, and the animal was injured in some way beforehand... Not exactly a good measure of 'average.'



Attaman said:


> Considering there are several instances within the last four years alone of people unarmed or nearly unarmed killing "strong" wildlife critters (in addition to the above two, the man in Africa who managed to kill a lion with a mix of spear and bare-hand combat, and the ex-Marine who killed a bear using a log as a throwing weapon), it's not like I'm picking out a once-in-a-decade set of occurrences.



As you noted, both of those used their ability to use tools as an asset. That was a main way we tipped the scales in our favour in the past. Even so, the fact that these are noteworthy is proof they are atypical. 'Several insances,' sure. But there are almost seven billion people in the world, one would expect there to be 'several' capable of such things. That doesn't mean those that can do such a thing are good measures of a human average.




Attaman said:


> People have the problem of looking at Office Schmuck Joe, several hundred years separated from having to hunt his own food - as well as several thousand years from living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle - and saying "Well that's what the average human is and always was."  It's like taking a 60lb cattle dog and using it as an example of what wolves are capable of.
> 
> Who said anything about constantly? Just add ten-to-twenty minutes a day to the average 1st World citizen's day planner set to lifting weights and another ten-to-twenty doing workouts in other fields, and you'd see a major improvement in overall health and capabilities. They wouldn't need to do this from puberty to middle-age either, though that would further increase capabilities.



True, 40 minutes a day can make a world of difference in physical stature. But are you really claiming that a fit human could typically stand a chance fighting a lion? It will give you a better standing, but you'll still need a combination of luck, physical strength, and ingenuity on your side to not get completely slaughtered.

Although it's notable the humans are incredibly stubborn animals. Some will hold a grudge for years, if not a lifetime, and can outlast many animals in terms time spent walking without rest.



Attaman said:


> Don't worry, if I was trying to wank out humans I'd make a vague mention to us using only 10% of our brains and having at least one recorded survivor of two atomic bombs.



The fact that you before cited someone falling from terminal velocity and living, which less than 10 people have done, and another getting a spike through his head, mitigates this claim somewhat.

Just a random memo, the 10% of your brain is only what we use consciously. For thought and thinking. The other ~90% is used for passive processes like digestion, heartbeat, etc.


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