# Tracing photos... Is that cheating?



## KitsuneKit (Feb 27, 2008)

Okay, allow me to explain my art process.  Instead of drawing out a complex skeleton system for my character and then figuring out all the details, I get take a digital picture of myself in the pose I want and trace it and then alter it slightly to make it furry.

Is that considered artistically cheating?

I mean, I know I'm not copying anyone's work, but I'm also not following proper drawing protocol.  It makes line art WAY easier and the proportions will always to true to life.  What are your opinions?


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## Aden (Feb 27, 2008)

I view it as pseudo-cheating, myself. However, my opinion is that that kind of thing may be good for the way you practice, but I wouldn't post any pictures made like that in my gallery. Just my personal opinion.


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## Luna_Redmoon (Feb 27, 2008)

I wouldnt think so..
I do the same thing for horses to show my friend the basic parts of a horse, outline each detail and basic shape and everything. Then I go back, draw in what I want, then put it on Paint.NET and colour over it again. Then sometimes I will animate it.


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## KitsuneKit (Feb 27, 2008)

Well, when you think about it.  It's kinda like the same thing with the photomanipulators.  I mean, they start with a photo as their base as well.  Then the photo is tweaked and altered to look the way they want.  It's pretty much the same thing, I guess.


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## PinkTsuki (Feb 27, 2008)

Not really, because photo manipulation, for me when its done its about to show your skills of montage, composition and over all brush domination. 
-
Its allright to trace the photo for practice, since you took them yourself, if you want to learn about anatomy and placement. But it would be silly to place those in the gallery as your work from scratch.


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## sakket (Feb 27, 2008)

i think it counts as fully original work because i mean you took the friggin pictures yourself. its like the cool style they used in the boring as hell lord of the rings cartoon.

i think you actually learn more if you don't directly trace it, but rather use the custom photo as a reference and copy it as closely as possible just from looking at it.


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## Dyluck (Feb 27, 2008)

My personal rule is if you can't use a digital technique with traditional mediums, it's cheating. Example: photoshopping textures.

I don't know about this one though, since there's tracing paper and shit. I still wouldn't do it, myself.


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## greg-the-fox (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm doing a work in photoshop now that I copied from a photo, (not traced, i put them side by side) but I'm using the dropper tool to steal the colors from the photo >> Is that cheating?


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## Dyluck (Feb 28, 2008)

greg-the-fox said:
			
		

> I'm doing a work in photoshop now that I copied from a photo, (not traced, i put them side by side) but I'm using the dropper tool to steal the colors from the photo >> Is that cheating?



Lolz, I do that, as well. I don't think that anyone would call that cheating, even if you can't do it with traditional mediums per-se. If you're good at mixing paints, you could pretty much just copy the colour from sight, anyways, and if you're using markers et cetera, you just have to pick the one that's closest to the colour you want.


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## Bokracroc (Feb 28, 2008)

greg-the-fox said:
			
		

> I'm doing a work in photoshop now that I copied from a photo, (not traced, i put them side by side) but I'm using the dropper tool to steal the colors from the photo >> Is that cheating?


Well if you wanted to use the same colours anyway, I don't see how it is (because you were going to use about the same colours anyway).

Is Roto-scoping cheating is regard to the main topic then?


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## MDTailz (Feb 28, 2008)

What's cheating?

You create something, you learn from creating something. You learn something different depending on how you do it.

Roto Scoping creates a cool special effect. But you get nothing new or interesting out of it, you can't make any cartoony effects, no exaggerated squash and stretch. But if you want the effect of rotoscoping, then do that. If you want something you can't conceive in real life and/or has huge a more stylistic movement, or... is a species/object that doesn't exist... you get the point =P

i think same goes for photos and tracing. I think it can make a cool effect, but it's not how I would make _all_ of my drawings.
As long as your not plagiarizing.. Then it's not "wrong"
Might not be the best way to learn something or show something, but it's not "wrong"


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## sakket (Mar 1, 2008)

i used to trace sonic comics back in the day.. when they were worth tracing. im confident i actually absorbed some skill that still lingers today (thats a span of about 13 years ago btw)


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## Meliz (Mar 18, 2008)

it's only cheating if you claim you didn't trace. seen my gallery? follow the links in my sig, you'll get what i'm talking about.

but, for a twist, cut up some pictures and glue them together

you don't need mad nooch leet photoshop skillz to Pwn at that. just trace the new fragments and voila! cool new drawing.


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## Sslaxx (Mar 19, 2008)

You still have to draw over a photo of yourself though - still have to work out how to add details you may want like a muzzle or a tail, and then work out how to draw them without screwing up. And if it's a photo of _you_, you aren't cheating anybody else, not even cheating yourself.


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## Marji4x (Mar 23, 2008)

It's not cheating.  Let people know that you did that, so you can remain honest and don't mind the flak.

If you are hoping to learn the way to draw life and energy into your characters, then this will be a hindrance and a handicap to you.  You'll learn much more slowly and you may begin to rely too much on it as a crutch.

But the technique itself is not cheating.  Bakshi's Lord of the Rings was rotoscoped and the characters were all dead and boring because of it.  On the other hand, Ah Ha's great video for "Take On Me" has a vibrant energy, due mainly to the creative camera movement and use of hatching and design. It was also rotoscoped!

 It can be done very well, it all depends on your talent and vision.


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## sateva9822 (Mar 23, 2008)

copying is copying, is copying

Though if you feel it would be a good way for you to pick the feel of drawing, no one will ever know you did it if you never post or show it.


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## balt-lightning (Mar 23, 2008)

If you said you traced, you have gutts, and I credit you for that. But I dont like people posting saying its theres without credit


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## Muir (Mar 23, 2008)

My opinion: If you were tracing a picture of.. say... mickey mouse and saying 'I drew that' THATS cheating. But you're not doing that. You are taking a photograph OF YOURSELF (your work) and using that as a ref to draw your own furry picture. Totally acceptable.


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## Riasiru (Mar 25, 2008)

Tracing, no matter what of, is not cheating. However, what you have after you've traced... ANYTHING, isn't nessasarily valid either. Some things, can't be validated, ever. However, as in the case here, if you put a notable amount of effort into a project, past the actual tracing; such as alterations of the anatomy, lighting, or a fair amount of CG or other such work, then in all honestly, while it might not be a testimant to your ability to draw, it might still be a fine way of showing artistic ability in other feilds. Personaly, I myself think that while my sketching is nice, my work with the other stuff is where I earn my keep. 

I know I shouldn't have to say this but, if you feel guilty over tracing, chances are, you're doing something wrong, otherwise, whatever helps ya along with your pursuit of creativity!

PS. Besides, tracing is a great way to learn things.


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## mazthewolf (Mar 28, 2008)

No, not at all.
If you have trouble with proportion, yet excell in photoshop, I don't see why not.

I myself might consider using this method for a few pics.
But your entitled to your opinion so,


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## Infinity (Mar 29, 2008)

The thing is you're showing signs of guilt from it, so for you it probably is.


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## Fen (Mar 30, 2008)

Yes, it is cheating.  Tracing requires little or no right-brain activity, thus resulting in little or no artistic growth.  You'll will never make a mistake while tracing lines, so you'll never learn from those mistakes.  As for the 'future alterations,' you are only learning how to alter a drawing, not make one.

Art is a trial-and-error type of skill.  All artists started at stick figures or something around the quality of stick figures.  Do you think they traced those stick figures?  If so then who traced the stick figures they traced?  

Use photos as a reference, not as a base.


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## Lancear Omari (Apr 11, 2008)

yes it is cheating. 
Nothing wrong with a photo reference. (long as you have the rights to use that photo) 
But, tracing a photo is cheating even if you took the photo yourself. 

I'm amazed at the people who voted no.


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 11, 2008)

I dont think it is, if your just getting the pose, in fact why didnt i think of that?


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## Misujage (Apr 11, 2008)

Not cheating at all, It is like a shortcut. I mean you are still using yourself and your skills to make it happen. XP Its not like it is a complete copy. You just need the shape


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 11, 2008)

See, Mis agrees.


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## shiftyfox (Apr 11, 2008)

I think studying up on proportions and weight for a few hours would take a lot less time and effort compared to printing out photos and tracing over them.  Drawing the human body is a lot simpler once you learn a few basics.


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## xainy (Apr 12, 2008)

He's not printing out the photos and tracing them, shiftyfox, he's tracing over them on a different layer in photoshop. Not too much effort.

KitsuneKit, I think you'd learn more if you maybe only traced the lines. Like a circle for the head, sticks for the arms, etc. At least then you're still eyeballing the muscle curvature and things like that. When something is traced from a photo, it's pretty easy to tell, especially if, when you add a muzzle and ears and stuff, the style of the photo and the style of the added things don't mesh and start looking awkward.

I think I have to agree with Lancear for the most part, though. Eyeballing/using a photo as reference = okay. Outright tracing, even if it's your own work? Not okay to me. 
Maybe if you don't post it and are just using it to learn, but if you post it, you're not showing off to your FA gallery and watchers the skill you've amassed and all that you've learned. You're displaying your distinct talent, that everyone has...of tracing. And then adding a new face on it.
And you can learn better by studying anatomy IRL, anyway.


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## Ioan Wah (Apr 12, 2008)

Tracing a photo isn't cheating.  It's a beginning.  Although, the best advise I've heard over the years, from many in the field, is to take an anatomy or life drawing course.  Once you learn the basics, you can then exaggerate them properly.

In comics, artist often use a Pantograph to trace large elaborate cityscapes, structure (ie blocks), to saves time.  As for figure drawing, many use photos as references (Alex Ross, Greg Horn etc).  They copy the structure, usually in some sort of skeletal form.  However, some like Greg Land, pushed the limits and went in to plagiarizing.  He literally traced the photos (pantograph) and just changed the clothing and the hair (google his name).  So be careful, don't make tracing your standard.


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## Rhari (Apr 12, 2008)

I can understand the process, but at the same time, I have an problem with the practice.

 In art classes, they don't mind if you use a photo reference, but I can only imagine what would happen if you outright traced your source. My high school teacher would almost always try to switch out our photo references with real models, when she could, even posing herself sometimes. I just don't like the idea of tracing, at the very least, if you must do it, let your watchers know if/when you post it. 

Just my opinion, you don't have to agree with me. :3


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

I consider tracing in any form, cheating. You can't learn that way. If you look at the image and use it as a reference, that's not cheating -- as long as you credit the reference source. Art takes skill, and skills are attained through practice. If you don't want to take the time to learn, to truly learn with minimal help, then you aren't an artist.


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

I think its a pretty good idea...to start off with. Well I;m gonna try it and see if it wil help my art get better.


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

Rin Chambers said:
			
		

> I think its a pretty good idea...to start off with. Well I;m gonna try it and see if it wil help my art get better.



It will help. Another good idea, something I've been doing most of my life, is to observe _everything_ and the shapes associated with what you see. For example, when you're talking to someone or simply looking at them, observe what shapes could be used to draw that person. I don't know if I'm even making sense, sorry. Kinda hung over. XD


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

I get it. No matter how hung over you are


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

Rin Chambers said:
			
		

> I get it. No matter how hung over you are



Good! =3


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

Yush. very good


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

According to the poll, half the users who voted think that it is cheating, and half think that it's not. Those who think it isn't are in denial. Listen to your conscience, furrehs! XD


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

I still say t isnt though.


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

Rin Chambers said:
			
		

> I still say t isnt though.



If you trace over something, you're using [a lot] of help. It's the same way with school. If you bust out your notes during a closed-note closed-book test or exam so that you may have some help while testing, you're still cheating. My point is this. If you can't draw without the use of references or photos, you're cheating.


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

IN CLASS USING NOTES,  DONT CALL THAT CHEATING I CALL THAT, "Using my special resources"


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

Rin Chambers said:
			
		

> IN CLASS USING NOTES,  DONT CALL THAT CHEATING I CALL THAT, "Using my special resources"



And I call your constant usage of capitals a "blatantly obvious giveaway that you're a young irremediable teenager in hopes of gaining attention via usage of bigger text and frequent posts." You can quote me on my quote on the quote unquote.


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

I CALL IT BEING THE MASTER OF CAPS LOCK -.O. ANDTHERES NO LAW AGAINST HAVNG FUN AS A TEENAGER.


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## PogoRoo (Apr 12, 2008)

Rin Chambers said:
			
		

> I CALL IT BEING THE MASTER OF CAPS LOCK -.O. ANDTHERES NO LAW AGAINST HAVNG FUN AS A TEENAGER.



Entertaining an ignorant thought? XD. There are many laws against things that teenagers do which they consider "fun." Use of illegal drugs, graffiti, underage sex, downloading/viewing pornography, going out past curfew, driving without a license, etc. are things that kids think they're cool enough to do. Until I became a legal adult I did not do drugs, I did not drink, and did not do graffiti. I did, however, have underage sex, look at teh pr0nz every now and then, go out past curfew, and drive without a license. These are all normal things that teenagers do for various reasons, and I do regret having ever done what I did so young. Wow, totally off topic. Sorry. xD


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## Rin Chambers (Apr 12, 2008)

IM JUST USING CAPS FOR MY ENTERTAINMENT...


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## Ioan Wah (Apr 12, 2008)

WHOA!  The discussion went way off topic!  Look, tracing is okay for a beginner, it helps them understand proportion and depth.  However, if you want to illustrate as a profession, you will have to stop, and start doing your own work.  However there are exceptions, as far back as the 1960's, probably earlier, cartoonist who worked or are still working in comic books, still trace a lot of there cityscape backgrounds.  It saves time when you're on a deadline, especially if you're slow or you're not "feeling" the story, uninspired.


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## Fen (Apr 12, 2008)

Rin Chambers said:
			
		

> IN CLASS USING NOTES,  DONT CALL THAT CHEATING I CALL THAT, "Using my special resources"



Do you trace those notes, or did you learn how to write?

Do you trace those photos, or did you learn how to draw?


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## shiftyfox (Apr 13, 2008)

xainy said:
			
		

> He's not printing out the photos and tracing them, shiftyfox, he's tracing over them on a different layer in photoshop. Not too much effort.
> 
> KitsuneKit, I think you'd learn more if you maybe only traced the lines. Like a circle for the head, sticks for the arms, etc. At least then you're still eyeballing the muscle curvature and things like that. When something is traced from a photo, it's pretty easy to tell, especially if, when you add a muzzle and ears and stuff, the style of the photo and the style of the added things don't mesh and start looking awkward.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah...never thought about computers....

But still, cheating or not, I would not recommend learning by tracing anyways.  I have a feeling it might lead to some bad habits that will be hard to break.  Like she said, photos don't really translate well into drawings, they always look really flat and lifeless.  When you trace, you might be learning some proportions, but only in 2D.  Even using a photo as a reference is still no where near as useful as drawing real living people.  So yeah, I guess I still stand by my statement, in the long run its going to be a lot less effort for you if you don't trace.


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## Meliz (Apr 13, 2008)

hey tracing got me pretty far, okay?

i'm not doing it anymore, only for poses, shapes (mostly group scenes so i can get a feel of it, but even then it's just stick figures in different colors (and i mean DIFFERENT cuz i'm halfway to being colorblind)) but for the record:

THIS was a fat chick before i changed it. The arm, the wrinkles in the fabric, the pose, the body mass, etc...

sometimes it's a pretty decent aid.

it helps get rid of the scary.


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## coffinberry (Apr 13, 2008)

do what i do: sit in front of a full length mirror (or stand, whatever. i'm too tall to stand in one). keep your sketch book in hand and draw out the pose. or if you HAVE to draw both hands doing something while in the pose, put down the sketchbook, take a mental photograph, and draw it. but don't draw muscle and stuff, just the 'skeleton' lines, as i call them. or have someone pose for you. i personally think tracing over a photo, even if it's yours, in photoshop is kinda cheating and you should say so if you post it.


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## PogoRoo (Apr 13, 2008)

Meliz said:
			
		

> hey tracing got me pretty far, okay?
> 
> i'm not doing it anymore, only for poses, shapes (mostly group scenes so i can get a feel of it, but even then it's just stick figures in different colors (and i mean DIFFERENT cuz i'm halfway to being colorblind)) but for the record:
> 
> ...



Yes but, no offense, it isn't impressive. Anyone with a steady hand can COPY a picture and alter it. Takes no time at all.


			
				Ioan Wah said:
			
		

> WHOA!  The discussion went way off topic!  Look, tracing is okay for a beginner, it helps them understand proportion and depth.  However, if you want to illustrate as a profession, you will have to stop, and start doing your own work.  However there are exceptions, as far back as the 1960's, probably earlier, cartoonist who worked or are still working in comic books, still trace a lot of there cityscape backgrounds.  It saves time when you're on a deadline, especially if you're slow or you're not "feeling" the story, uninspired.



How many furry artists are on a deadline? Few.


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## wilce (Apr 14, 2008)

Tracing will get you the instant gratification of an image that looks kind-of-okay because someone else has already done the work for you.

It will not teach you proper proportions , or composition, or colour theory, or anything else you need to gain a proper understanding of how to create an interesting image.

Tracing is a bad habit that will hold you back for as long as you continue to do it.


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## KitsuneKit (Apr 14, 2008)

Well, just so everyone knows, I don't trace anymore, but it really did help me learn how proportions are and how fabrics and clothing are supposed to lay on a character.

All in all, I recommend it for starting out and slowly ween yourself off of it.


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## Shark_the_raptor (May 4, 2008)

No, I wouldn't think so.  Besides, I can't trace very well.


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## Springdragon (May 7, 2008)

It's a legal move, but you're never going to improve if you keep doing it. However, if you do not have the goal of becoming a better artist, then I suppose it isn't a problem as long as you're honest about it.


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## ExTo (May 8, 2008)

I don't think it's cheating, especially if you modify it a lot. Still, if you want to catch a particular pose or anything, it's surely best to try and eye-copy the thing rather than trace it. Not only would that allow more "flexibility" in the drawing, it'd also help you even more to get better at eyeballing things. And that's always good, even when drawing for your mind alone, if only to be better at figuring out what looks okay and what looks wrong.


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## Kittiara (May 9, 2008)

I would encourage you to use photos as reference, not to trace them.  That way you train your eye and you can develop to a point where you don't need to trace, and it'll give you more freedom in more epic poses when you figure out the body's proportions for what they are.

Edit: Posted a little late; I just noticed you said you weaned yourself off the technique.  Good to hear!  I'm sure it's a useful developing tool, though observance is my preferred method.


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## FrisbeeRolf (May 9, 2008)

My art teacher encouraged tracing.  She said it's the best way for complete beginners to learn that they can draw if they try.  She also said that once you get good enough, you won't need to trace anymore.


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## Kathera lockharte (May 22, 2008)

hmm well I know someone who could say that it could be cheating, since A what your saying is that your altering a photo, you still can get a kick ass furry picture in the end, however unless you specifically said it was done in that manner, then I would say it could be a way of cheating because your decieving everyone into thinking you have true skills but really your just altering a photo, though it Can be compaired to what a few artists had done, and taken classic paintings and altered them so that they had a foxes head or the head of a dog, which oddly enough can be concidered furries since it was a painting of a human that was altered to include an animals head and paws thus becoming an anthromorph, so this isn't any different, its just an updated version of it, but you still need to let people know that you didn't draw it from scratch.


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## Arshes Nei (May 22, 2008)

There are any philosophies regarding especially since it's more about application over anything else.

What are you doing the art for? Attention, learning, crunching to make a deadline?

You can't draw if you don't know how to trace, and vice versa. 

If you were to get hired, most jobs would look at your portfolio AND sketchbook, so if you can only do trace-over productions, your sketchbook of life drawings is not gonna look right because you don't have the sketchbook to back yourself up (you can try putting traces of photos of models you found online, but it doesn't quite work).

I do feel it's not an unacceptable practice, just shouldn't be a main one. If you're selling a lot of works using this method you can also run into future copyright issues if the photos aren't your own.


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## verix (May 22, 2008)

I honestly only consider it cheating if you try to pass off the tracing as your own. If you trace in order to practice anatomy, that's cool. If you trace in order to create your own work, that's stretching it.


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## Ratte (May 22, 2008)

*Anyway...*

I don't really call it cheating.  It's more like photo manipulation.  If you work to make the pose, it kinda brings you into your own pic, in a way =3


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