# Paid Site, Paid for Perks, Or stay Free: Discuss it.



## Allester (Jul 5, 2008)

To those ranting about wanting FA to be a pay site, and those against it. Allow me to remind you what happened to "Playmouse" when they tried to put price tags on things. Not only did they loose hordes of traffic because all of the popular artists went under pay codes (To get a chunk of the money), but they also lost traffic because the site would no longer be 100% free. This traffic loss would have been GOOD if they changed the sight back to free and shifted servers. Bandwidth being what it is, the loss of traffic wouldn't have been forcing Playmouse to use an expensive host.

FA is going down the very same road at this moment. They're on a pricey host to offer the best possible Bandwidth, but at the same time the Host has problems of its own controlling said bandwidth. If they change over to even "Pay for extra perks" site, they're going to loose a lot of traffic because, lets face it, all FA has to offer is Pictures, Stories, Music, and Drama. There's nothing for them to 'add' as a perk. So they would have to take away something to make it a perk and that right there would kill the site and traffic would plummet. You may come up with "Well Sexyfur and Furafterdark manage." Allow me to explain something about those sites.

Sexyfur.com and Furafterdark are pay sites, yes. But they DO NOT get even [HALF] the Traffic free sites like FurAffinity, Yiffstar, and VCL get BECAUSE they are pay sites. This limits the amount of Bandwidth they need per month and there fore only pay a small price for a host because of it. FA, YS, and VCL all have HIGH Traffic floods, which eats up Bandwidth so these sites need bigger Hosts, and a Bigger Host means more money.

As of now, FA is a great place for Artist and Writers to get a leg up in the Furry Fandom. Hell I got my start on FA, then moved to yiffstar as well and finally Playmouse with my stories and commissioned artwork. If they went off as a Paysite, then how are Artists, Writers, and Musicians supposed to post here? Would we get a fraction of the funds? If that's the case, the same thing as Playmouse again they'd be out of money because they'd be paying so many artists, writers and musicians to post their works.

Would we be free because we're posting? Again, that would effect their overall income from it because they'd then be LOOSING money as 80% of FA is Artists, Writers, Musicians, AND people who commission other artists and then post those works. So they'd be making money off of a [POSSIBLE] 20%. How many of that 20% actually PAYS for these extra perks/to view anything would be the question. Most would leave because they don't have the cash, others will just post something simple to get a free account.

To Sum it up: FA turning in to a Pay site [OR] Pay for Perks site, is a bad idea and would be utterly useless.     Just my 2 cents.


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## Artie (Jul 5, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> I can promise you that if we went that route the services and offerings on FA would not change. It'd be nothing like what DeviantArt does... AT ALL. FA will remain free for usage, but just please remember that nothing truly ever comes for free. There are ALWAYS COSTS, whether you see them or not. Anything that we were to offer would be optional, would "fluff" and would not take away from the basic access.
> 
> But the bottom line? FA costs almost $1,100 a month in basic operations. Where will we be a year from now, two? We need to work on producing lil' frills to get people to donate, things that are nifty... but do not reduce the daily usage of the site.



That basically says that if FA offers anything paid, it won't be taking anything AWAY from free users.  No one will lose anything they have now on the site by not paying.

Personally, I'd be all for a paid account that I get *nothing extra at all* out of, just to support the site.  I think FA should persue such an option first, to see how many sponsors they can get without actually offering any perks just to see how that goes over.  I'd be on board for that.  And then if they come up with something new to give the "sponsors", then that'd be cool too.  But it wouldn't involve taking any functionality from the free user base.  Dragoneer already said nothing would be taken *away* from the free users.  The worst that will happen is that FA will *stay the same as it has been* for anyone who doesn't pay.  And that's assuming any paid option ever comes into existing.

So, all the posts talking about free users getting crippled accounts, like this one, are kind of pointless anyway...


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## Undying Song (Jul 5, 2008)

Artie totally knows what's up. : )


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## Nelson Demifur (Jul 5, 2008)

I agree. Playmouse was a fun site but it ended up leaving those who didn't have talent out in the cold. And most paysites only attract those who have the funds to keep an account. Not to mention you can skip the site all together and if you happen to be dishonest(or just annoyed at the cost), get a site rip from wherever. Turning FA into a pay site would quickly make it bottom out and all the fun would be circling the drain until it ends up being no more. FA should stay free. So what if it shuts down due to bandwith. It's annoying I know but it's better to have a free website that everyone can enjoy then a paid one or semi-paid one that few can enjoy


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## SilverAutomatic (Jul 6, 2008)

Artie said:


> Personally, I'd be all for a paid account that I get *nothing extra at all* out of, just to support the site.  I think FA should persue such an option first, to see how many sponsors they can get without actually offering any perks just to see how that goes over.



I doubt many people would go for something like that now and days. Most people seem to be able the bottom line, aka, "what's in it for me?".

But at the same time, I agree that making it where subscribing to FA to get 'perks' that normal accounts don't get isn't exactly a good idea anyway...

Hmmm....

What about, if you subscribe, while there won't be any perks site-wise, you'd be able to get... I dunno... discounted tickets to FA: United and things like that?


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## SDWolf (Jul 6, 2008)

I already posted this in the other thread, but this is basically what I'm envisioning: (apologies for the copy/paste) 




"Sponsor" status for $24 a year, or $3 for a month. This would have the following advantages: 

Estimated break-even point: About 550 yearly Sponsors. If this round of donations is any indication, I think that's doable.
Sponsors could turn off the ads, and get little icon and colored border around their userpic indicating their Sponsor status. That's it, nothing more.
Free accounts remain UNCHANGED, and can see/post/do EVERYTHING that the Sponsors can with regard to using the site.
To be clear, the only things that Sponsors would get that free accounts don't, would be the Sponsor icon, colored border around their userpic, and the ability to turn off the ads.
As new functionality and features are added, ALL USERS would have access to them, not just Sponsors.
No new restrictions on bandwidth, posts, faves, watches, etc.

I think this would be a fair way to go about it, and since it breaks down to about $2 a month, it's pretty affordable. And for those that can't or choose not to be Sponsors, they don't miss out on anything.


*Disclaimer:* This is just my idea. As of this writing, the admins have made no decisions or official statements regarding this matter.


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## Allester (Jul 6, 2008)

SDWolf said:


> think this would be a fair way to go about it, and since it breaks down to about $2 a month, it's pretty affordable. And for those that can't or choose not to be Sponsors, they don't miss out on anything.



Now see, this idea works out well. But instead of paying a flat $24 a YEAR when all the site needs is 550 people to cover its bills per month. Why not just make is $2 a month, so people can budget better for those who have low options open to them.


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## SDWolf (Jul 6, 2008)

Allester said:


> Now see, this idea works out well. But instead of paying a flat $24 a YEAR when all the site needs is 550 people to cover its bills per month. Why not just make is $2 a month, so people can budget better for those who have low options open to them.


 
Problem is, by the time [insert favorite payment handler here] takes their cut, FA wouldn't see much of that $2 at all. :?

Perhaps $24 for a yearly sponsorship, or $3 for those that want to go month-to-month. That way there's an incentive to go yearly, but it's still affordable to go month-to-month. To wit: Drink 3 fewer cans of soda each month, and you can afford to support FA each month.

*updates original proposal*


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## Monak (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay first all I can say is , Elitism out the ass would be the end result.  Secondly I think throwing up such a stone wall would drive away the next generation of furs to follow.  And as a person of few means supporting two dying parents I can honestly tell you to take a fur's one main outlet from the bullshit of everyday life and enjoy themselves for who they are for a few brief momments is just plain cruel.  As I already have to choose between eating and paying for gas to have a car so my mother can live I sure as hell don't need the well off and over privileged trying to force another choice I and many others don't have the means to make.


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## Dragoneer (Jul 6, 2008)

This is just an official note that FA hasn't said anything official on this subject.


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## Monak (Jul 6, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> This is just an official note that FA hasn't said anything official on this subject.



And I hope you never do :-D


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## Artie (Jul 6, 2008)

Monak said:


> And I hope you never do :-D



So the rampant speculation and paranoia can continue?


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## Monak (Jul 6, 2008)

Artie said:


> So the rampant speculation and paranoia can continue?



I can't afford weed anymore so I need to get my paranoia somehow.


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## ryokukitsune (Jul 6, 2008)

well since its been established that FA won't screw the people who can't/won't go pay site then i guess to keep this thread productive it might be better to think about what kind of bells and whistles a pay user would get. basically make a wish list of things that would cost more money to implement to justify starting a pay program.

I guess my wish list would be along the lines of this:

furhost- give pay users the ability to upload a small website (other than that of their profile) with adjustable/upgradable file storage to operate along side their gallery, so for instance you could have access to all the images, flash and music content of your profile but it wouldn't negatively impact your available storage. meanwhile in the site you would have more options to what files you could host like 3d models save games and movies and such without file or content restrictions (for the most part short of obvious policy violating junk)

email- offer email, hey i know people that have a hello kitty email address simply for the novelty...

groups- well there are the occasional account registered that multiple people manage but those have the security problem of one person having the ability to lock everyone else out, make a group system kind of like Yahoo or something where users can submit their work to the group leave comments share links etc.

Interactive paint- support online paint programs where a user can create a private or public canvas to join forces or work alone to create their perfect pic and post it directly to their profile!

eh, just some ideas. they would be cool however hard they would be to impliment. but that's why its called a wish list ^^


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## Fuzzypaws (Jul 6, 2008)

Monak said:


> Okay first all I can say is , Elitism out the ass would be the end result.  Secondly I think throwing up such a stone wall would drive away the next generation of furs to follow.  And as a person of few means supporting two dying parents I can honestly tell you to take a fur's one main outlet from the bullshit of everyday life and enjoy themselves for who they are for a few brief momments is just plain cruel.  As I already have to choose between eating and paying for gas to have a car so my mother can live I sure as hell don't need the well off and over privileged trying to force another choice I and many others don't have the means to make.



As noted many times, the idea is *not* to take away anything that free users already get.  The idea is to give a few _extra_ little bonuses to paying users, to reward them for helping to support the site.  

Remember, this site takes a LOT of money to run.  Paying users would go a long way toward covering that $1100 monthly bandwidth bill.  Excess paying users would allow the site to build up a financial buffer / rainy day fund to cover such things as server upgrades, warranty renewals, and replacement of failed components.  

Who knows, if they had enough excess paying users they might even be able to pay a consultant to write some clean clearly-commented code to help finish Ferrox sooner than never.


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## jro2020 (Jul 6, 2008)

The inherent problem with people being able to pay to opt out of ads is that then the ads only reach the people with no money to spend.  Which means the advertisers get no buiseness from it so they have no reason to advertise.

Yah know I would pay a bit, just a bit, say 10 bucks a year.  To get customized ads, or eliminate them entirely.  I'm just saying I am not on the second life and I am tired of those ads, I want as a perk for my money the option to opt out of ads that don't apply to me.  I'm not picky I like ads they show me good places to say buy a tail, or find unique faux fur, but I am sick of the second life ads and I would pay to opt out of them.


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## GerrardShadoukopo (Jul 6, 2008)

Monak said:


> Okay first all I can say is , Elitism out the ass would be the end result.  Secondly I think throwing up such a stone wall would drive away the next generation of furs to follow.  And as a person of few means supporting two dying parents I can honestly tell you to take a fur's one main outlet from the bullshit of everyday life and enjoy themselves for who they are for a few brief momments is just plain cruel.  As I already have to choose between eating and paying for gas to have a car so my mother can live I sure as hell don't need the well off and over privileged trying to force another choice I and many others don't have the means to make.



As someone already said, the point would be to take nothing away from those that can't pay, just give a tiny bit to those who could. Like an icon at most or whatever. And if people are "elitist" over it, who the hell cares? People are pretty dang elitist at times on this site without paying a dime for it, the most that would happen is one or two people who are already jerks would find some new outlet to be so. Whoopidy-doo.

And also, while this will probably sound just plain cruel (there's really no way I can help that, so sorry): This isn't just about you. Which you kind of seem eager to make it about yourself, giving us your life story. Your life is obviously very difficult, and I agree that you should not, under any circumstances, be punished for that. But everything said here needs to be said with a perspective dealing with all FA users, not just one or some of them. We should basically establish now that we can't let this thread degrade down into a "Well I think this because this is was _I_ need." kind of discussion. Not accusing you of that, but that's just a road we want to avoid traveling.


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## Strawkitty (Jul 6, 2008)

Personally I just find it funny how many times people have suggested search as a perk for subscribing. From what I have read it's not going to magically appear no matter how much money you throw at it before Ferrox is done. Unless of course we hold a donation drive to hire people to work on Ferrox.

If you want to pay for a monthly no-huge-perks 'I support FA'-in-neon-glow-on-your-page subscription then you are quite welcome to just donate that money to FA and then mention it in your journal/frontpage/whatever. No need to make things complicated. :l

Besides seeing the success of this donation drive I say that there's no need for subscriptions.


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## SDWolf (Jul 6, 2008)

Monak said:


> And as a person of few means supporting two dying parents I can honestly tell you to take a fur's one main outlet from the bullshit of everyday life and enjoy themselves for who they are for a few brief momments is just plain cruel.


 
At no point have I ever suggested taking anything away from free accounts _*if*_ FA decides to offer Sponsor status.  Quite the reverse, actually.  Try actually reading my proposal this time.  No one would be forced to pay, and nothing would be taken away if you didn't.

It's no different from what cons do.  Do you know what Patrons at FC2008 got that regular Attendees didn't?  A plastic ID card instead of the paper one, a t-shirt, a lunch with the guests of honor, a little sake set, and a pair of chopsticks.  So, aside from lunch and a few things to take home, a Patron's con experience was really no different from anyone else's, and for that very reason, there was no elitism.  That's why I'm structuring this sponsorship idea the way I am.



Dragoneer said:


> This is just an official note that FA hasn't said anything official on this subject.


This can't be overemphasized enough.  XD


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## Allester (Jul 6, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> This is just an official note that FA hasn't said anything official on this subject.



HAHAHAHAHA! Nice play on words Drag. Now try and get this one down:

This is not an unofficial statement of not going to maybe possible say that we could not but really could in a way, shape or form give up the information of maybe giving up the thought of possibly maybe and not necessarily demand the love and affection of all folks.

Wrap your mind around that. If you can solve it, I'll know if FA plans on throwing out payment plans. =^^=


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## SilverAutomatic (Jul 6, 2008)

Allester said:


> HAHAHAHAHA! Nice play on words Drag. Now try and get this one down:
> 
> This is not an unofficial statement of not going to maybe possible say that we could not but really could in a way, shape or form give up the information of maybe giving up the thought of possibly maybe and not necessarily demand the love and affection of all folks.
> 
> Wrap your mind around that. If you can solve it, I'll know if FA plans on throwing out payment plans. =^^=



Dude, you made my head hurt. Not cool. XD


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## Artie (Jul 6, 2008)

Strawkitty said:


> If you want to pay for a monthly no-huge-perks 'I support FA'-in-neon-glow-on-your-page subscription then you are quite welcome to just donate that money to FA and then mention it in your journal/frontpage/whatever. No need to make things complicated. :l



I would find it less complicated if such payments could be automated or remind me when it's time to donate again.  Because I'm not good with remembering to keep up with manual payments.  That's why I'd like an account that would remind me when it's time to give money again.

I'm trying to think of everyone in my suggestions.

- People who don't want to pay, or can't pay, lose nothing.
- People who do want to pay (donate), have an easier way to do so, or reminders if they're forgetful, like me (when the period is about to expire).

If you think a line of text on someone's user page or tiny icon indicating someone is a site sponsor is being elitist, then I don't know what I can say.

I've been a Supersponsor at Anthrocon for the past few years and I don't really take advantage of any of the perks it offers (I even opt out of the luncheon).  I just want to give money to support the convention, because I enjoy it so much, and I can afford to do so.

It's basically the same thing with FA.  I don't see how this makes me some elitist prick though.  Some kind of subscription--err, excuse me-- recurring *donation* model would be something I would find beneficial in my circumstances.


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## dmfalk (Jul 6, 2008)

SDWolf said:


> I already posted this in the other thread, but this is basically what I'm envisioning: (apologies for the copy/paste)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have advocated a sponsorship system- This is pretty close to what I had in mind.

d.m.f.


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## dmfalk (Jul 6, 2008)

Artie said:


> I would find it less complicated if such payments could be automated or remind me when it's time to donate again.  Because I'm not good with remembering to keep up with manual payments.  That's why I'd like an account that would remind me when it's time to give money again.



This is partly what I meant by a PBS-style membership.

d.m.f.


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## Samael (Jul 6, 2008)

> Sponsors could turn off the ads, and get little icon indicating their Sponsor status. That's it, nothing more.



In a world with free AdBlock, what does this add to sponsors?


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## ryokukitsune (Jul 6, 2008)

or just so FA can make some money just have the adds on the page but make them visable for only a second or so and then javascript would hide them by collapsing the div box... to be sneaky like that and still get paid for the view lol

the only feature a sponsoror would get is a link in the source to a javascript cab lol


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## StfN (Jul 6, 2008)

Samael said:


> In a world with free AdBlock, what does this add to sponsors?



I wondered when someone would say something like that, it's been what I've been thinking all the time.
Sure, I know the ads support the site and that it's not "nice" to adblock them, but really, none of the things advertised for so far interest me. But, that is only me, no idea how others see it. The point is, yeah, there's applications like adblock, so if someone really doesn't wanna see ads, they can just turn them off. So this whole discussion about ads or no ads for paying users is a little on the theoretical side, as it somewhat assumes such applications don't exist.


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## Daniel Kay (Jul 6, 2008)

You know it's just odd, after all these donations rolled in that show people WOULD be willing to pay something to help the site there's suddenly all the talk of "payable features"... sure getting some extras would be nice but then most suggestion that are made just make it sound plain unfair like search function only available to paying memebers

OK beeing able to turn off ads sounds good and full page costumization is ok too but i'd keep hands off any browsing options

But anyway, what i ment was there was all that generosity and suddenly everyone thinks "hey how could the page make even more money" that sounds kinda odd to me (not directed towards dragoneer here as he didnt say anything aobut that)


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## SFox (Jul 6, 2008)

Samael said:


> In a world with free AdBlock, what does this add to sponsors?



It's possible to circumvent that. For example, fchan's discussion board blocks users of Firefox adblock addons unless they put fchan on a whitelist.


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## SDWolf (Jul 6, 2008)

Samael said:


> In a world with free AdBlock, what does this add to sponsors?


 
The icon indicating Sponsor status, and that warm fuzzy feeling that goes with knowing that you're helping to keep FA online.


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## LittleBlue (Jul 6, 2008)

SDWolf said:


> I already posted this in the other thread, but this is basically what I'm envisioning: (apologies for the copy/paste)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I really agree to this idea! It'd be fair and (in my opinion) quite affordable for most furs.
I think what FA needs to add, regardless of anything happening with this, is the ability to edit your own comments.
If FA does manage to get a search engine up I think it should be accessable by all members, but not non-members so that it (hopefully) won't take up as much bandwith. Maybe even limited searching could be introduced? Although, I don't think that'd work too well, it's just an idea.


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## fatalglory128 (Jul 6, 2008)

SDWolf said:


> "Sponsor" status for $24 a year, or $3 for a month. This would have the following advantages:
> 
> Estimated break-even point: About 550 yearly Sponsors. If this round of donations is any indication, I think that's doable.
> Sponsors could turn off the ads, and get little icon indicating their Sponsor status. That's it, nothing more.
> ...



Indeed the best idea I've heard so far for making money.  The problem with it is that it's really touch and go with what you'd call it/what perks the sponsors would get.  Basically, your idea is to have the sponsors get a little button on their profile and no ads, and that's it.  That's a great idea, but it's really not so much "sponsorship" as it is a longer version of donations.  Here's what I'm thinking.  Instead of setting up another class, make a new donations system.  It would work like this.


A page is setup that allows you many choices of how to donate money to FA, whether it be incremental donations or one-time donations of all different amounts.
Set up the image on peoples profile, but instead of it just saying "Sponsor", have it be a specific image saying how much that member has donated.  Or something like, "Top Tier donater", "Average Donor", and "Cheapskate".
The image would also expire after a certain amount of time for the one time donations, depending on the size of the donation.  So that a 100 dollar donation will show up on the profile for a year and a half, as where a 20 dollar donation would only stay for maybe 4 months.

Also, besides making donating members have just an image on their profile, outline their avatars in a special color everywhere on the site.  Something like what deviantart does with placing a character before the member name everywhere.  If I remember correctly, admins get a $, subscribers get an =, and members get ~.  Do something like that, only have it be a border around the avatar image, as that's what's used to show a member on FA.
Now, besides that, have an extra field in a persons profile, saying to everyone else on FA how much they've donated IN TOTAL.
Give the member the option to hide that from members like the option to hide their email address.
Also, give them the option to hide it from themselves, because if I know people, they'd look and see that they've given FA $1000 total, they'd think "Whoah, I've given them enough already."  Because 90% of people can't understand the buildup of money over time.  So that's that.

No Ads for the money giving ones, obviously.

A little more complicated and in-depth than the original plan, but that's key.  If it's too simple, people can see right through it and go "So, what am I getting for doing this?"


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## SDWolf (Jul 6, 2008)

fatalglory128 said:


> Indeed the best idea I've heard so far for making money. The problem with it is that it's really touch and go with what you'd call it/what perks the sponsors would get. Basically, your idea is to have the sponsors get a little button on their profile and no ads, and that's it. That's a great idea, but it's really not so much "sponsorship" as it is a longer version of donations. Here's what I'm thinking. Instead of setting up another class, make a new donations system. It would work like this.
> 
> 
> A page is setup that allows you many choices of how to donate money to FA, whether it be incremental donations or one-time donations of all different amounts.
> ...


 
I like the idea of a colored border around the userpic. *updates original proposal*

That said, anything that quantifies how much one has paid doesn't appeal much to me at all. If this fundraiser has shown us anything, it's that the number of users donating is more important than the size of the donations.

Also, people would use a system like that to masturbate their egos, and that's not something anyone wants to see. To wit: Bragging that you support FA is cool. Bragging that you've given X dollars to FA is not cool.

Ultimately, the same level of credit and perks should apply, regardless of how long one has been a Sponsor, or how much they've given. It's not about credit or perks, it's about supporting FA and recognizing those supporters, regardless of how much they give.


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## OxfordTweed (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm just going to come out and say that on the sites I go that have a subscriber feature, I tend to subscribe.  I think a subscriber feature for FA would be a good idea.


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## muddypaws (Jul 6, 2008)

Making FA a pay-site? Personally = YIKES!

Don't misunderstand, I do realize things (including services like on-line sites) require money to run/repair/upgrade. However, one thing that attracted me to FA was the art, the other is that it was free.

In the event FA does have to start charging, set it up at levels of "Grantors" not customers.

Funding could be approached in terms of those who wish to be a supporter. I'm sure there are many conferences (Furry and otherwise) that offer that option for supporters. But, for those (like me) who can't afford it, keep it free.


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## SDWolf (Jul 6, 2008)

muddypaws said:


> Making FA a pay-site? Personally = YIKES!


 
I totally agree!  Recognizing Sponsors = good.  Requiring payment for functionality = bad.  Hence, my proposal.  



muddypaws said:


> In the event FA does have to start charging, set it up at levels of "Grantors" not customers.
> 
> Funding could be approached in terms of those who wish to be a supporter. I'm sure there are many conferences (Furry and otherwise) that offer that option for supporters. But, for those (like me) who can't afford it, keep it free.


 
That's what I've been saying all along.


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## Drakkon (Jul 6, 2008)

I pay $175 annually to support AC.  I go as a Supersponsor.  I have no problem paying for things that I personally enjoy and think are worthy.

That being said, I'm luckier than most furs.  I prefer to see there remain a basic free option that allows humbler furs to have access to all the same materials, but allow others to pay for greater things.  Maybe simple items like a T-Shirt or forum tags, or other nifty little extras.  And then a level above that for people who want to truly sponsor FA.  I'm certain, out of everything I spend money on annually, monthly, or even weekly, I can find some way to Sponsor FA, and would do so eagerly, even without reward.


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## TehSean (Jul 6, 2008)

Taking a moment to remind everyone who's going "no no please don't make it a paysite"

It has been officially stated that all the current functionality that some of you haven't paid a dime for will remain free to use to you.

Let me put it another way: Even if you don't pay, you'll be able to use FA as it is now and as FA's functionality is gradually upgraded, you're likely to be able to use some of the new features.

However, none of the new features currently exist. They aren't going to magically appear just because Your Donations and Dragoneer purchased new servers. FA will be as it was and remain that way for a long long time while the development process for the new features drags on.

Again, you will not lose any of the key functions in FA that you are currently used to using on the day that FA installs a subscriber system.


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## NathanCowan (Jul 6, 2008)

Given how much time I've spent on the site and how much fun I've had on the site, I'd be only too happy to contribute money on an ongoing basis. I could live without the perks being discussed. 

It would, however, be nice if those of us who help support the site had the right to call those who do not "Knaves."

This is not a serious proposal.


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## ArielMT (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: Paid Site... Paid for Perks... Oh stay Free, Dammit!*

Not sure if this got lost in the postapalooza of the last week or so...

The ability to set up a recurring dollar-a-month payment automatically from my card so I wouldn't have to remember, or something similar, with no expectation of anything in return except for continued uptime and access.  This in addition to the perks proposals, not instead of.


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## wildrider (Jul 8, 2008)

I personally don't see a problem with a subscription perk.  Just a small fee of a couple bucks a month is certainly not unreasonable for alot of folks.  Throw in a fancy border around the subscribers name and maybe give them some page customization like their own picture on the front or something and it would simply be like donations with a bonus.

At 2 bucks a month, 24 bucks a year, for even 100 people doing it, that would be 2400 bucks to pay for bandwith fees and to keep the servers rolling good.  What would it mean for people that have not subscribed?  They won't notice a damn thing.  They can still see all the art, can still read stories, can still browse the forums...What is there really wrong with the idea?


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## Suntiger (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm broadly in agreement with SDwolf and Artie. 

Well, actually I don't even care about the sponsor tag or perks.

Since people keep turning up with 'I don't want to see FA becoming a pay site' despite Dragoneer's statements and other posters clearly worded suggestions about sponsorship and perks to the contrary I will try to make this post even more clear than usual.

1. I want FA to remain free for all users.
This means that nobody has to pay to be able to view everything on FA.
Nothing will be hidden from any users.

2. I'd like to see a function where it is possible to subscribe to/sponsor FA with a recurring donation of 2 or 3$ per month.
This donation would be voluntary.
This means that no-one would be forced to pay it.
Not donating would still let you view everything on the site, as well as post your own art, have an account and every other function that you can get today.

3. I want to do this because a recurring donation makes it simpler to support FA than manually donating it every month.
This donation would be voluntary. No-one would be forced to pay.
All users would still have all the functions on FA for free.

4. The monthly fee is small enough to be affordable to many people.
This donation would voluntary. No-one would be forced to pay.
All users would still have all the functions on FA for free.

5. Since quite a few people would be able to afford the donation it would provide FA with a steady income (subject to fluctuations as subscribers come and go, but steady nonetheless).
This donation would voluntary. No-one would be forced to pay.
All users would still have all the functions on FA for free.

6. That kind of support would give FA a buffer of money in case something bad happens.
That in turn means that they can do maintenance and switch parts without taking FA down completely.
Effect: FA would be more stable and reliable with fewer occasions of the site being down.


I'll repeat the important parts again:
- I like FA.
- I want FA to remain a free site.
- I want to support FA.
- I have a terrible memory and a recurring donation would make it simpler to support FA.
- I want the fee to be small to enable more people to join as supporters.
*
Many paying a little regularly means a more steady and reliable FA site.
This donation would be voluntary. No-one would be forced to pay.
 All users would still have all the functions on FA for free.
*
Clear enough?


I know it is very easy to be unclear and miscommunicate on the internet.
Because of that I have tried to write this post to be as painfully clear as I can possibly make it.
If someone still, in reference to this post, thinks I'm advocating that FA should become a pay site I don't know how else I could convince them otherwise.
The post has a lot of 'me me me' in it because my suggestion is slightly different than the others, and when there is another 'I don't want FA to turn into a pay site!' I'll try not to go bananas unless they clearly show that it is my post they have misunderstood (like a quote).
That, because I understand there _will_ be more of those posts, since even with the previous posts clearly stating that FA shouldn't be a pay site in their suggestions about donations and perks, the 'no pay site' posts still get posted.

There, now I've even explained my explanation.


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## Lig (Jul 8, 2008)

Well I'll put my two cents in this. Personally I don't think FA should become a pay site. It'll take a lot away from the site as far as members and everything goes. I mean what happens to those who already have accounts? Do we now need to pay for them? And even if not isn't it still unfair to others? I mean lets take a look at what's happened in this case. The site needed money for a new server. What happened? Donations flooded in and now we're getting a bad ass server. I don't think there's a need to make it a pay site. The members have already shown a good willingness to donate to the site. FA's great how it is and I can't wait for it to be back online. When I get  job and get cash flowing in I plan on being a good doner myself. In the meantime all I can offer is material for the site and moral support unfortunately.


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## TehSean (Jul 8, 2008)

Lig said:


> Well I'll put my two cents in this. Personally I don't think FA should become a pay site. It'll take a lot away from the site as far as members and everything goes. I mean what happens to those who already have accounts? Do we now need to pay for them?



No. Didn't you read any of this thread before posting? Go back and read some of the thread and feel more relaxed. FA isn't booting people out and doesn't plan on making payment mandatory, etc, etc.


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## Suntiger (Jul 8, 2008)

Part of it might be the thread title being misleading since it includes 'Paid Site'.

Dragoneer, the owner/admin of FA has (as far as I know) officially stated that FA will not be a pay site.

On everything else, nothing official has been said.


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## Cnilo (Jul 8, 2008)

If you have a website that gets as many visitors as FA does and you don't have an adequate Ad system setup, then you're not using the internet right. It's pretty much as simple as that.

In terms of costs for a site like this, it should be making more than enough money to run without needing direct cash from its users.

Part of the problem is that FA also doesn't really maximize its efficiency in bandwidth usage.

Anyway...


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## Daddy Ducky BE (Jul 8, 2008)

Let me repeat why I think that perks can only be of secondary interest when it comes to FA getting funding:



Daddy Ducky BE said:


> c.) *"Special features"*, aka "luxury bling-bling for your money", be it t-shirts or special coding or customization features. Certainly not a thing for the masses, and just a few people interested won't be worth much of the effort, certainly not at this time. Not to mention some, maybe most of the listed wish lists of "special customization features" wanted here would only cause even more trouble server-wise than we already have with this current setup, and use up coding energy needed elsewhere (such as for Ferrox) right now.
> 
> It's what FA could be looking forward to when things will be running smoothly and steady significant funding will be in, which, speaking from experience, they probably won't be doing even when FA will be up again in a week or two.



Therefore, I repeat, the best way to get big funding in for FA remains the idea of implementing an optional on-site one-click commission payment service (or even a whole set of them) where the payment service gets 4% and FA gets 1% of the money paid. Don't wanna lose 5% of your commission money? Either you add 5% to the original price your customer has to pay, or you don't use these one-click services at all.

See: http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?p=464447 (post #713). The idea of setting up optional monthly payments is just a variety of donations, aka unreliable charity, that I mentioned there as well, though I reckon that the one thing it'd share with perks is that the majority of FA users will not enlist to make monthly donations for the site being up which they take for granted and make no money from. Other than commissions which people _do_ get money from.


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## Suntiger (Jul 8, 2008)

Daddy Ducky BE said:


> See: http://forums.furaffinity.net/showthread.php?p=464447 (post #713). The idea of setting up optional monthly payments is just a variety of donations, aka unreliable charity, that I mentioned there as well, though I reckon that the one thing it'd share with perks is that the majority of FA users will not enlist to make monthly donations for the site being up which they take for granted and make no money from. Other than commissions which people _do_ get money from.



Ah, but that's just the thing. 
FA being up and free is neither of them something you can take for granted.

It's only possible as long as someone is willing to cover the cost of you and me using the site.


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## Lig (Jul 9, 2008)

TehSean said:


> No. Didn't you read any of this thread before posting? Go back and read some of the thread and feel more relaxed. FA isn't booting people out and doesn't plan on making payment mandatory, etc, etc.




Well I did read some of it. Sorry there was a lot of stuff to sift through. Well as long as payment isn't mandatory and nothing is taken away then It's not bad......but what's the difference between that and the current donation system then if any?


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## Cnilo (Jul 9, 2008)

Suntiger said:


> Ah, but that's just the thing.
> FA being up and free is neither of them something you can take for granted.
> 
> It's only possible as long as someone is willing to cover the cost of you and me using the site.



  

Ads cover the cost of websites. Ads make the creators of popular websites tons and tons of money.

See such sites as myspace, facebook, deviantart, digg, and google.


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## Suntiger (Jul 9, 2008)

Cnilo said:


> Ads cover the cost of websites. Ads make the creators of popular websites tons and tons of money.
> 
> See such sites as myspace, facebook, deviantart, digg, and google.


Right, that's why FA still ran on old server (, thanks to massive efforts from the admins) and why donations were needed to buy a new one. 
Tons of money indeed.

It's true that you can pay site bills with ads, but except for a few exceptions you won't make much money of it.
Actually, you're lucky if you brake even. 
Ask anyone who has tried to run a site finances solely on ads, or even with ads and donations.

Neither of that takes into account the payment in time the owner/admin of the site puts in.


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## Wait Wait (Jul 9, 2008)

how about this.  artists get ads by donating/becoming sponsors.


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## Cnilo (Jul 10, 2008)

Suntiger said:


> Right, that's why FA still ran on old server (, thanks to massive efforts from the admins) and why donations were needed to buy a new one.
> Tons of money indeed.
> 
> It's true that you can pay site bills with ads, but except for a few exceptions you won't make much money of it.
> ...



Perhaps this could be from a poor business model and ad system. >__>

Again, if sites didn't generate an insanely large amount of revenue from ads, you wouldn't see so many 'free' sites on the internet. These sites are 'free' because by being so they maintain a larger amount of traffic. Charging fees scares users away lowering the traffic (regardless if the fees are perks, scheduled donations, etc.), which lowers the profits. FA is a huge site, which means that with a proper business model it should be generating a large amount of income (which should be more than enough to cover all the actual fees the website may accrue). 

There are other outlets you can use to make money for a site, but the fact of the matter is, if you're not making a profit with your website then you're doing something wrong.

You honestly think the bigger online companies don't break even?


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## ANTIcarrot (Jul 10, 2008)

Vote for 'stay free'
But with optional automated donations via paypal or something.


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## Leasara (Jul 10, 2008)

I didn't read the thread, so maybe this has all been said.  Myself, I'd take a couple routes to get FA to pay for itself.

Merchandising: FA/Fender/Ferrox mugs, shirts, pens, pins, stickers, mouse pads, posters ect.  _maybe_ look at rolling out an art prints shop that could benefit the site and the artists.

Advertising: Got a good start on that, but with FA's Alexa numbers, I'll bet there's more money here.

Donation Incentives: FA has a new banner fairly frequently from different artists.  Up the scale to wallpapers, crop the wallpaper into a banner/preview, and offer a couple common resolutions for download if you donate over $1-$3.


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## AlexInsane (Jul 10, 2008)

Merchandising would only dig FA further into the hole monetarily. Besides, the stuff would never sell. Who wants to spend 6 bucks on a pen with "FurAffinity" on it in black letters? I know I don't. I could make my own FA pen for free.

...however, little Fender-head lapel pins would be cute.


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## Drakaji (Jul 10, 2008)

Maybe the FA staff could hold a contest for some shirt designs?
A bigger selection would most likely bring in more sales.


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## Steel Froggy (Jul 10, 2008)

Drakaji said:


> Maybe the FA staff could hold a contest for some shirt designs?
> A bigger selection would most likely bring in more sales.



I'm in agreement with this. I always thought it'd be a good idea, glad somebody else agrees. ^^


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## Dragoneer (Jul 10, 2008)

Drakaji said:


> Maybe the FA staff could hold a contest for some shirt designs?


I have the Rednef Unleashed t-shirt design, designed by Clubstripes, ready to roll. If all goes as planned we'll have it for sale at FA: United. Followed soon enough by Fender Unleashed. We've got some other shirts in the works as well. 

As for contests... uhm, I'd do another t-shirt contest at this time. I'm still somewhat dismayed at the results of the previous contest. The winner was paid $200 for their design, and the very next day after I paid them they posted what amounted a huge anti-Furry drama bomb in their FA journal, basically slapped us in the face, removed their art from the site... and left us with a shirt design with the taint of drama. They later had the nerve to rejoin, but the damage they did still lingered.


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## Ribbonpaws (Jul 10, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> I have the Rednef Unleashed t-shirt design, designed by Clubstripes, ready to roll. If all goes as planned we'll have it for sale at FA: United. Followed soon enough by Fender Unleashed. We've got some other shirts in the works as well.
> 
> As for contests... uhm, I'd do another t-shirt contest at this time. I'm still somewhat dismayed at the results of the previous contest. The winner was paid $200 for their design, and the very next day after I paid them they posted what amounted a huge anti-Furry drama bomb in their FA journal, basically slapped us in the face, removed their art from the site... and left us with a shirt design with the taint of drama. They later had the nerve to rejoin, but the damage they did still lingered.



will this shirt be availiable anywhere else? just curious


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## Lizardbeth (Jul 11, 2008)

If it's a matter of "Offer paid 'sponsor' subscriptions with mini-perks, or FA can't afford to keep itself running anymore", I'd say open up the option for optional paid membership.  As long as it's opt-in and you're not blocked from important stuff - like, ya know, the art - than who cares?   

FA takes over a grand to run a month.   That money has to come from somewhere.  You may not feel like donating $5 every single month, and that's fine. But to scoff at the idea of possibly allowing others to do so, just because they might get some special little otherwise insignificant feature that YOU don't get?  That's silly.  

I'm sorry, I know this is coming off a bit short.  But honestly guys, think about what you're saying, those of you who are against ANY kinds of paid subscription or sponsorship.   You love FA, you dig that it's here, and it would suck if it were gone permanently.  But the admins behind FA can't just continue to shell out their own pocket money to pay for this every month.  There HAS to be some kind of give from the community on this.  

The problem with "artists offer 5% of commissions" or "donation drives" is that it's sporatic.  It's not a consistant, reliable source of money.   One month you may have bandwidth and repair costs, but what if you have 3 slow months in a row?  At least with a sponsor deal, you could count on x people's 3 bucks or whatever, factor in the inevitable number of people joining and/or leaving, and can plan ahead for things like big-budget upgrades or hardware fixes.  You can't do that nearly as well if you don't know how much is coming in month to month, day to day.  And if there's extra?  Put it towards that year's FA:U.  I don't see why the site can't help fund the convention too.

If 220 people gave 5 a month, it would pay for FA's bandwith; and 220 is less than 10% of the people on my watch list, so it's probably like 1 or 2% of FA's total numbers.   Heck, if the subscription was $2 or $3 a month, you'd get enough there.  

A steady source of income in the hands of the admins means hardware gets upgraded and fixed as soon as it's needed, and not waiting until it's 100% dead to beg for donations and leading to extended downtime.   

If you enjoy FA, I don't see how keeping it funded is a bad thing.


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## Sean Wolfe (Jul 11, 2008)

Or Dragoneer could win the lottery ^_^


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## tundra_arctic_wolf (Jul 11, 2008)

Lizardbeth, you make a very good point.

I would jump on the chance of paying for any particular perks, or to pay for a subscription, to help keep FA up and running for a very long time.  I think that it should be every FA members' duty to help out the admins and Dragoneer to help give whatever they can for the website's costs, because they surely can't do it alone.

We're all in this together.  Teamwork wins in sports; teamwork wins in helping pay for the expenses and upgrades, as well as the upkeep of a website.  The loner loses.


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## marmelmm (Jul 12, 2008)

Monak said:


> Okay first all I can say is , Elitism out the ass would be the end result.  Secondly I think throwing up such a stone wall would drive away the next generation of furs to follow.  And as a person of few means supporting two dying parents I can honestly tell you to take a fur's one main outlet from the bullshit of everyday life and enjoy themselves for who they are for a few brief momments is just plain cruel.  As I already have to choose between eating and paying for gas to have a car so my mother can live I sure as hell don't need the well off and over privileged trying to force another choice I and many others don't have the means to make.



...and yet you can afford a computer and bandwidth?  

Not a sermon, just an observation.


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## Steel Froggy (Jul 12, 2008)

Lizardbeth said:


> If it's a matter of "Offer paid 'sponsor' subscriptions with mini-perks, or FA can't afford to keep itself running anymore", I'd say open up the option for optional paid membership.  As long as it's opt-in and you're not blocked from important stuff - like, ya know, the art - than who cares?
> 
> FA takes over a grand to run a month.   That money has to come from somewhere.  You may not feel like donating $5 every single month, and that's fine. But to scoff at the idea of possibly allowing others to do so, just because they might get some special little otherwise insignificant feature that YOU don't get?  That's silly.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. You hit this one dead on I'd say.



marmelmm said:


> ...and yet you can afford a computer and bandwidth?
> 
> Not a sermon, just an observation.



haha that's what I thought. Just to chicken to say it. :3


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## Arrow Tibbs (Jul 13, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> I have the Rednef Unleashed t-shirt design, designed by Clubstripes, ready to roll. If all goes as planned we'll have it for sale at FA: United. Followed soon enough by Fender Unleashed. We've got some other shirts in the works as well.
> 
> As for contests... uhm, I'd do another t-shirt contest at this time. I'm still somewhat dismayed at the results of the previous contest. The winner was paid $200 for their design, and the very next day after I paid them they posted what amounted a huge anti-Furry drama bomb in their FA journal, basically slapped us in the face, removed their art from the site... and left us with a shirt design with the taint of drama. They later had the nerve to rejoin, but the damage they did still lingered.



A t-shirt contest really wouldn't need to be for money proper, what if some people were willing to do commissions for free? I'd join in for that, or even just the idea that some of my art would possibly be on a shirt.


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## Steel Froggy (Jul 13, 2008)

Arrow Tibbs said:


> A t-shirt contest really wouldn't need to be for money proper, what if some people were willing to do commissions for free? I'd join in for that, or even just the idea that some of my art would possibly be on a shirt.



I'm sure there's people who'd do it for free. That's a great idea. :3


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## WhisperPntr (Aug 5, 2008)

I totally agree with lizardbeth as well.  I think offering perks like other archives do would help pay for server costs as well.  Nothing too fancy but enough to feel the rewards and help give those a special status.


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## SDWolf (Aug 5, 2008)

Yay! Thread necromancy! (Though granted, I'm the one who linked to this thread to begin with) 

I still stand by my proposal (see post #6 in this thread) as being the easiest and most fair way to go about getting a steady income for FA.

And it bears repeating that the admins have made no official announcements regarding this.


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## Petrock (Aug 5, 2008)

I can think of something you could give the sponsors that would make it an incentive, or at least make it MORE of an incentive. More advanced submission capabilities...like, alot of people draw pictures that could technically fit under multiple categories (for instance, a picture of bondage and transformation). Why not let the sponsors be able to upload simultaneously to multiple categories?


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## Ket-Ralus (Aug 5, 2008)

I say keep the site free overall, and then provide a low-key paid membership option with additional benefits advertised in the donations area. If you play it down, you won't hear much of a backlash from people fearing the site's going to become all commercial like deviantART or the like.


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## McRoz (Aug 5, 2008)

Pardon my French, but having FA as a mandatory pay-to-use site would be fucking bullshit. To most of us, it'd be like paying to take a dump (which, sadly, some coin-operated stalls are still used). I don't know about you, but when I've got to do my business I've got to do my business, and being booted out like scum just because you can't or refuse to pay is outrageous.

But I digress, that last line doesn't really apply to furaffinity as much as pay toilets. I got off topic, lol.
I'd be fine for a pay-for-perks option, as long as the perks aren't taken away from necessary free features (like this one site I was on, for example, wouldn't give you a search bar until you got a premium account. What kind of fucking asshole thought THAT up?!?). Otherwise, and I know I'm going to get bashed for this, I'm not entirely convinced the furry fan base is wide enough or well recognized enough to have anything more than some free art sites. 
Hey, it could be worse. Did you know, on i Mockery's "geek heirarchy" we're the second lowest on the food chain (next to fanfic writers, heh)?


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## SDWolf (Aug 5, 2008)

McRoz said:


> Pardon my French, but having FA as a mandatory pay-to-use site would be fucking bullshit.
> 
> *snip*


 
Making FA a mandatory pay-to-use site is totally out of the question, I don't think anyone has suggested it, and the admins would never do it, ever. You have nothing to worry about there.


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## Delphinidae (Aug 5, 2008)

Allester said:


> *snip*


Lesson one: if you want to start a "discussion" as per the title, then you do not state your own opinion.


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## Guano (Aug 5, 2008)

I think FA should stay free, at least until it runs into money troubles. Then they should bring out an optional subscription thing like DeviantART has, in order to keep the site going.

Because I really don't want FA closed down...


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