# Any Military furs??



## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

Just curious, cause I know a few furries who are in the military~ :3

I personally don't care for how the government is like here in America, but I've already decided to work out and train up before I join. (no bashing, please) Not because of friends who are in the military, but more to help ensure that my friends and family and those I care about are safe. xD Love them more than ANYTHING in the world and I want them to live peacefully. That and my grandfather was involved in the Vietnam War and I want to be able to finish the path that he walked.

Edit: Yes, there's a poll too... And I couldn't remember if I hit them all so I added the "Yes, I'm in an area not mentioned" option... xD Why? Cause I'm a forgetful dork.


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## ArielMT (Aug 3, 2008)

I hope vets count, because I just voted.  Eight and 1/2 years in the U.S. Navy.


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## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

ArielMT said:


> I hope vets count, because I just voted.  Eight and 1/2 years in the U.S. Navy.



Yep, vets count! And awesome that you've been in the Navy for that long~ :3 (most the people I know only stayed for like... 5 years or something like that) I'm still kinda debating between which branch I want to get into.


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## Monak (Aug 3, 2008)

I scored a 91 on the ASVAB and was already to sign up and one of my friends got blown up in Iraq.  A few days after my buddy Jason came home on leave came straight to my house and told me not to sign up , he said another one of us didn't need to be in harms way.  Thankfuly Jason is finished with his service now and won't be going back.


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## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

Monak said:


> I scored a 91 on the ASVAB and was already to sign up and one of my friends got blown up in Iraq.  A few days after my buddy Jason came home on leave came straight to my house and told me not to sign up , he said another one of us didn't need to be in harms way.  Thankfuly Jason is finished with his service now and won't be going back.



sad to hear about your friend. ;_; But even if I do join... I know that if and when I die, I'd be farther along the path than my grandfather had walked. That's what matters to me at the moment. I never got to see my grandfather since he died before I was born. But I hope to see him as I walk his path, whether see him in the afterlife or see him within myself as I walk his path.


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## ArielMT (Aug 3, 2008)

mukichan said:


> sad to hear about your friend. ;_; But even if I do join... I know that if and when I die, I'd be farther along the path than my grandfather had walked. That's what matters to me at the moment. I never got to see my grandfather since he died before I was born. But I hope to see him as I walk his path, whether see him in the afterlife or see him within myself as I walk his path.


I'm sorry for your loss as well, Monak.

Mukichan, you really shouldn't be doing this unless you're absolutely certain it's your path as well.  I'll say nothing more of it, other than I wish for you to find what it is you seek.

About joining the military, it sounds like you've got the right reasons for the most part. Unless I'm misunderstanding the "I personally don't care for how the government is like here in America" part, I'm kind of hoping that it's not our basic system of government that you have a problem with, because it's going to stay, and that's what you're going to be serving, even though the people in that system come and go.


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## Rhainor (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm not, nor do I ever plan to be, in the military.  I know a few who are, though.


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## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

ArielMT said:


> I'm sorry for your loss as well, Monak.
> 
> Mukichan, you really shouldn't be doing this unless you're absolutely certain it's your path as well.  I'll say nothing more of it, other than I wish for you to find what it is you seek.
> 
> About joining the military, it sounds like you've got the right reasons for the most part. Unless I'm misunderstanding the "I personally don't care for how the government is like here in America" part, I'm kind of hoping that it's not our basic system of government that you have a problem with, because it's going to stay, and that's what you're going to be serving, even though the people in that system come and go.



It's not the basic system... It's the people running it. Over the years, I've noticed that we've been getting more and more idiots involved and I honestly don't care for it although I can't do much about it. There's just so many idiots here in the world and not enough decent or more intelligent people.

As for the path, yes. I'm sure of it. I want to be able to finish what he wasn't able to finish. He died too early and I want him to finish it. His blood runs in me. :3 I've actually been thinking about all of this for the past 5-7 years... LOTS of thinking and trying to get myself to stop thinking about it.


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## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

Rhainor said:


> I'm not, nor do I ever plan to be, in the military.  I know a few who are, though.



I just read your signature... and... OMG!!! I want to read those books sooooooooooo bad!! (but I could never find it in the library, and my friends who own it refuse to let me borrow it. =_=; )


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm not, though my fursona is an ex-army soldier.


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## Muawiyah Hirate (Aug 3, 2008)

I'll vote because in...six days I get shipped off to Army BT at Ft. Sill, O.K..
Wish me luck!


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## ArielMT (Aug 3, 2008)

mukichan said:


> There's just so many idiots here in the world and not enough decent or more intelligent people.


No doubt of that.


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## Backdraftwolf (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm not in the military but I grew up in a military family. My parents and my uncle were in the Army, my parents are both retired from the Army now, my grandma and grandpa were in the Navy. (My grandpa served on the USS Enterprise durring WWII) and two of my cousins are currently serving in the US Coast Gaurd both stationed in St. Paul Alaska. My brother plans to join the U.S. Marine Corp after he finishes high school. But I thank all the furs and the other solders who have and who still are defending this country. GOD BLESS YOU ALL


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 3, 2008)

I wish I had, but I never would have been able to complete basic training. My father served in Vietnam, both my grandfathers served in WWII I believe.


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## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> I wish I had, but I never would have been able to complete basic training. My father served in Vietnam, both my grandfathers served in WWII I believe.



My mom survived the Vietnam War. >>; Barely. Her father tossed her onto a boat and told her to hide there and he was shot by communists in front of my mom as soon as the boat left the docks for Singapore. I'm kinda scared to go back to Vietnam to see my cousins and the rest of my mom's family but I have a funny feeling that I should go back... Just to get a better understanding of my roots. (I'm practically 100% Vietnamese.)


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 3, 2008)

mukichan said:


> My mom survived the Vietnam War. >>; Barely. Her father tossed her onto a boat and told her to hide there and he was shot by communists in front of my mom as soon as the boat left the docks for Singapore. I'm kinda scared to go back to Vietnam to see my cousins and the rest of my mom's family but I have a funny feeling that I should go back... Just to get a better understanding of my roots. (I'm practically 100% Vietnamese.)



My dad was an interrogator in the war. But, maybe you should go and see them. But, it might also be hard, since Vietnam and the US don't exactly have good relations, and getting a Visa to go there might be difficult.


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## mukichan (Aug 3, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> My dad was an interrogator in the war. But, maybe you should go and see them. But, it might also be hard, since Vietnam and the US don't exactly have good relations, and getting a Visa to go there might be difficult.



=_=; I guess it's time for me to apply for my passport and shiz~ I can't remember what mom told me that grandpa was... But I remember her telling me that he served in the military for South Vietnam.


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## Muawiyah Hirate (Aug 3, 2008)

TyVulpine said:


> My father served in Vietnam, both my grandfathers served in WWII I believe.


My maternal great-grandfather and two great-grand uncles served in WWII.
Granted, my great-grandfather was a member of the Imperial Japanese GSO, one of the GG-uncles was the equivalent of a petty officer in the Imperial Navy and the other was one of the "tokubetsu kogeki tai" (Special Attack Units, better known under the name "kamikaze pilots"), but they still served in WWII.
My maternal grandfather served as a US Airman during the Korean War.

And my father turned 18 three weeks after the Draft was ended, so no military experience for my parents (or anybody on my paternal side).


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 4, 2008)

I managed to avoid the military in Poland (hopefully). Draft's getting abolished in 2010, so I'll be a happy _living_ civilian.

I'd propably join an ASG club, though.

Also, poll maker, where's my "Indifferent" option?


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## SGTRedfield (Aug 4, 2008)

Another Milfur here, currently deployed to SWA. 

~Redfield


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> I managed to avoid the military in Poland (hopefully). Draft's getting abolished in 2010, so I'll be a happy _living_ civilian.
> 
> I'd propably join an ASG club, though.
> 
> Also, poll maker, where's my "Indifferent" option?



uh... xD I had no braincells to come up with a "indifferent" option~ sowwy~


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

I support no army of no contry ^^
War is not a solution!


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

supporting the soldiers does not equal supporting the act of war


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> I support no army of no contry ^^
> War is not a solution!





Wait Wait said:


> supporting the soldiers does not equal supporting the act of war



*headnods* yep yep... I agree with Wait. I support my friends for doing what they think is right for them. I hate wars... I hate violence... But to serve and protect... That's MAJORLY DIFFERENT than wars.

Supporting the troops is separate from supporting the war... It is merely supporting their role in defense. Supporting the war would be... well... Supporting the war.

The war is not justified, in my opinion, but when the soldier has to go, he has to go. He is no more than a drone, doing what the government is telling him what to do. The GOVERNMENT should be the one to blame for the war, not the TROOPS. The troops does NOT have rights, unlike civilians.

But ya know what? I'm still thinking about joining... Not to serve the government, but to protect the ones that NEEDS to be protected. I want to be able to ensure that my friends can live as long as they can.


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## Houshou (Aug 4, 2008)

United States Air Force.


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## Werevixen (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes, I'm a terrorist.



This Fender suit perfectly conceals my dynamite belt and turban.


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

Werevixen said:


> Yes, I'm a terrorist.
> 
> 
> 
> This Fender suit perfectly conceals my dynamite belt and turban.



^^ Good one...



> Supporting the troops is separate from supporting the war... It is merely supporting their role in defense. Supporting the war would be... well... Supporting the war.



Im their would be no war, then you haven't to defend. But the defend creates an anti-defend, an attack. So defending creates attacks, whats the same as attacking directly...
My oppinion, you don't have to share it...


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> Im their would be no war, then you haven't to defend. But the defend creates an anti-defend, an attack. So defending creates attacks, whats the same as attacking directly...
> My oppinion, you don't have to share it...



But you can't defend if there's no attack. If there was an attack, then there would be a need to defend. Take bullies for example... They punch you (attack) and what do you do? You either block (defend) or punch back (attack).

Defending is NOT the same as attacking. Defending yourself does NOT create an attack. It's a way of merely trying to null out an attack. Or rather, cancel an attack. Attacks are normally caused out of a mix of anger and stupidity. Attacks are spur of the moment happenings while defense is a way to cancel those attacks or keep attacks from getting worse.

Sorry, just I was raised by a military brat and ALOT of my friends are either in the military or in the police force. Defense and Attack are two completely different things.

Edit: Also... our soldiers are there to protect us... They are not there to MINDLESSLY KILL PEOPLE! They aren't ordered to kill innocent lives. They are merely commanded to serve and protect their nation and defend against those who dares attack their nation.


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> Im their would be no war, then you haven't to defend. But the defend creates an anti-defend, an attack. So defending creates attacks, whats the same as attacking directly...
> My oppinion, you don't have to share it...



what the _fuck_
no, having a working defense does not mean someone will necessarily attack you.  having a working defense saves lives, which is what your goal of "no war" (something i would like, as unrealistic as it is) also aims for.


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## ArielMT (Aug 4, 2008)

Werevixen said:


> Yes, I'm a terrorist.
> 
> 
> 
> This Fender suit perfectly conceals my dynamite belt and turban.


It's Jihad Joe!

Wouldn't it be poetic if the suit was made well enough to withstand a dynamite blast?  "I dunno what happened, officer.  I just heard what sounded like somebody cussing out a Prius in Arabic, then this really loud bang, then I found this pile of fur and a blue necktie here."


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## Azure (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> what the _fuck_
> no, having a working defense does not mean someone will necessarily attack you.  having a working defense saves lives, which is what your goal of "no war" (something i would like, as unrealistic as it is) also aims for.


Peace through strength, make attacking a target as unappetizing as possible.  Also, I'm joining the Air Force this November, but the career choice is still up in the air a bit.  Either something Intelligence related, EOD, or Air Traffic Controller.  All good civilian careers when you get back to the world.


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## Monak (Aug 4, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Peace through strength, make attacking a target as unappetizing as possible.  Also, I'm joining the Air Force this November, but the career choice is still up in the air a bit.  Either something Intelligence related, EOD, or Air Traffic Controller.  All good civilian careers when you get back to the world.



You should totally join Stargate Command


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 4, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Peace through strength, make attacking a target as unappetizing as possible.



That leads only to unconventional warfare. Read _Spetsnatz_ by Viktor Suvorov.


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## ArielMT (Aug 4, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> AzurePhoenix said:
> 
> 
> > Peace through strength, make attacking a target as unappetizing as possible.
> ...


Actually, it leads to all of U.S. history, starting when President Jefferson sent the _Constitution_ to kick the Barbary Pirates' tails in 1801, so that the U.S. wouldn't have to pay them protection money anymore.


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## Azure (Aug 4, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> That leads only to unconventional warfare. Read _Spetsnatz_ by Viktor Suvorov.


I think we kind of innovated on that a bit?  Also, unconventional how?  You mean guerilla tactics?  We use those all the time.  Or do you mean nuclear weapons?  What do you mean?


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Peace through strength, make attacking a target as unappetizing as possible.  Also, I'm joining the Air Force this November, but the career choice is still up in the air a bit.  Either something Intelligence related, EOD, or Air Traffic Controller.  All good civilian careers when you get back to the world.



I'm thinking Air Force too... a little better for my mindset than Army, Navy, or Marines. But I really don't know. xD I have a whole year to decide. (Thinking of joining next year.)


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## Azure (Aug 4, 2008)

mukichan said:


> I'm thinking Air Force too... a little better for my mindset than Army, Navy, or Marines. But I really don't know. xD I have a whole year to decide. (Thinking of joining next year.)


Just do it before you're 27, that's the cutoff limit.  Also, remember to look up what current incentives are going around, as they change.  If you want any info, just PM me, I'd be glad to help you out.


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Just do it before you're 27, that's the cutoff limit.  Also, remember to look up what current incentives are going around, as they change.  If you want any info, just PM me, I'd be glad to help you out.



Didn't know there was a cutoff... But thanks for telling me! At least that means that I have 6 years to decide. :3 (I'm 21) I'm still hoping that I'd graduate college in the Spring with my programming diploma. I wonder if there's anything for that. >>; Or at least a tiny bit of networking. ><;


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

mukichan said:


> But you can't defend if there's no attack. If there was an attack, then there would be a need to defend. Take bullies for example... They punch you (attack) and what do you do? You either block (defend) or punch back (attack).
> 
> Defending is NOT the same as attacking. Defending yourself does NOT create an attack. It's a way of merely trying to null out an attack. Or rather, cancel an attack. Attacks are normally caused out of a mix of anger and stupidity. Attacks are spur of the moment happenings while defense is a way to cancel those attacks or keep attacks from getting worse.
> 
> ...





Wait Wait said:


> what the _fuck_
> no, having a working defense does not mean someone will necessarily attack you. having a working defense saves lives, which is what your goal of "no war" (something i would like, as unrealistic as it is) also aims for.



*beginn writing a high-complicated post*
*stop*
*delete it*
*shaking head*

This is one of the discussion which would never end. I could write pages... At least we only get angry at each other and Rhainor closes the tread ^^.
So i get back to topic:

No, i support nothing.


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> *beginn writing a high-complicated post*
> *stop*
> *delete it*
> *shaking head*
> ...



I'm not angry... I'm just merely trying to get you to get a better understanding the difference between Attack and Defense.


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

mukichan said:


> I'm not angry... I'm just merely trying to get you to get a better understanding the difference between Attack and Defense.



I think i said that i had philosophy at school. And i'm a philosophic guy.

So at least i have lots of thoughts what is attack and what defend.
And cuz that i'm the meaning, that defend, is always a counter-attack, because it will make the other to attack harder... Same as when you would have attacked him...


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> I think i said that i had philosophy at school. And i'm a philosophic guy.
> 
> So at least i have lots of thoughts what is attack and what defend.
> And cuz that i'm the meaning, that defend, is always a counter-attack, because it will make the other to attack harder... Same as when you would have attacked him...



True that counter-attack is a form of attacking... But it's a way of defense... PROPER counter-attacking involves using ways to null out the other's attack and ensuring that neither is hurt. It's not all "boom-boom" this and "boom-boom" that.

But would blocking (a form of defense) be considered counter-attacking?


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

That's not the point

he said that simply having a defense would directly cause an attack, which is false.


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> That's not the point
> 
> he said that simply having a defense would directly cause an attack, which is false.



Ok, then i will write -.-
*Hmmm, i have really nothing better to do, so prepare for the ultimate discussion!*

First we have to think of an theoretic world, where you don't have war.
*DAMN! SHUT UP! I KNOW, too, that such an world not exist, plz only hear a moment!* <-- reacting before you can post 
Would you there have a defence? No. You would answer on this question: "??? Whats a defende?"
Noone attacks, noone could attack (without weapons etc), so you don't have a defense.
But if you now would begin to create weapons for "defense" (so noone could attack you, remember they have no weapons) all the others would feel treaten, so they would begin to create weapons too.
But if you had begun to create a defense to ensure you can't get attacked, you know will again produce weapons (This is logic: You produced weapons before a treatening was there, so it's sure you will produce if there is a minmal treat). And again they will make.
Then anybody would shout: "Hey, he can kill me! I have to kill him, before he kills me!" BAM, you have war.
(And now don't try to tell me this wouldn't work so. For that there are more then enough examples...)

Now take that into reality.

First situation: You haven't been attacked, but you know, you could be attacked. So you make a defense. Cuz you can use our defense to attack, the other will feel treaten blablabla, look up there we had this...

Second situation: You had been attacked and so you defend yourself. There could be some results:

1) An other country use the circumstances and attack you. Not big possibility, but it could be, the result of this you sure now...

2) The attack was sucessfull, you're dead.

3) You defend sucessfull. The enemy was beaten.
The attacking guys had a motive for their attack (so weird it maybe was). After you defended against there attack (which means you have to "attack" their attack forces), they will use your defend to create a new motive which results in attacking you harder.
But cuz you showed they wasn't strong enough, they will create more weapons. Then you build more defense, too. Maybe they attack again. Then go some lines up and read again. Or they simple produce more weapons. Then read on:

This can cause three results:
1) You and the enemy construct more weapons ad infinite...

2) Some day they decide to attack. Pls go up to point 2/3 in this case.

3) Either you or you foe (maybe both) killed your economy with the weapon production. (If you say: "No, we didn't that!" go to point 1...)
3a: You killed your economy, you crash and the foe kills you.
3b: The enemy killed his economy. Results:
3b1: You kill the rest of him (definitely an attack!).
3b2: You do nothing and wait. The eco and the weapons of your foe disappear (they ran away, make useless attacks, whatever).
But in this case you still were the cause of the destroyed economy and foes.
What would have happened if YOU attacked sucessfull? You have destroyes the economy and the weapons of your foe, to ensure he's no treat.

The final result:
When you follow this defensive chain line the final results will be the same as if you attack the foe.

So it's equal wether you defend or attack, the result are the same.
So:
Attack=Defend


Now say again defend is no attack.

If you find "faults" in my argumentation, pls list them...
I will make them disapear ^^




20 mins later:
Ok, SO long it can't take to read the text!
Why noone is answering? I haven't made that for fun! Fun is to discuss about such things, not to write a long text and noone does say anything anymore!!! ^^




later:
Lol, it seems i've killed a tread ^^


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> That's not the point
> 
> he said that simply having a defense would directly cause an attack, which is false.



Ok... Hmmm...

I understand that he's saying that because we have the military that we have war. I personally think that it's because of government that we have wars. Because we have religions, that we have wars. Because we have stupidity that we have wars. Because we have FEAR that we have wars.

We have the military cause it's our way of defending against wars.

What about animals? Most would usually attack whenever a human would get near it even if the human was going to feed it. It's a natural instinct and is only defending itself. Animals have no weapons... They only have the skin on their backs, teeth, etc. All they know is fear. They fear everything and anything, just as much as we humans do. They don't trust us, just as much as we humans don't trust other countries. And we have the capabilities to create all these weapons and start a military and such. Animals can't do jack squat but defend themselves. Humans can't do jack squat but defend their territory and protect it.

And @Alblaka... You didn't kill the thread... I was gonna reply, but I'm pretty much stuck at work and can't exactly be on the forums 24/7 to reply to everything.


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

mukichan said:


> Ok... Hmmm...
> 
> I understand that he's saying that because we have the military that we have war. I personally think that it's because of government that we have wars. Because we have religions, that we have wars. Because we have stupidity that we have wars. Because we have FEAR that we have wars.
> 
> ...



It was, cuz i saw 4 guys reading the tread. (There were online in it for about 5 minutes) But then they all gone without posting ^^.


Yeah, animals defend themselves. They hurt you, same effect as when they attacked you (..., they attack to defend XD). So at last still attack=defend 

But why do they fear and defend themselve? Cuz they had bad experiences.
Wait...
Why i'm talking about animal instincts?!


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## Ty Vulpine (Aug 4, 2008)

Muawiyah Hirate said:


> My maternal great-grandfather and two great-grand uncles served in WWII.
> Granted, my great-grandfather was a member of the Imperial Japanese GSO, one of the GG-uncles was the equivalent of a petty officer in the Imperial Navy and the other was one of the "tokubetsu kogeki tai" (Special Attack Units, better known under the name "kamikaze pilots"), but they still served in WWII.
> My maternal grandfather served as a US Airman during the Korean War.
> 
> And my father turned 18 three weeks after the Draft was ended, so no military experience for my parents (or anybody on my paternal side).



Ah, cool.


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> It was, cuz i saw 4 guys reading the tread. (There were online in it for about 5 minutes) But then they all gone without posting ^^.
> 
> 
> Yeah, animals defend themselves. They hurt you, same effect as when they attacked you (..., they attack to defend XD). So at last still attack=defend
> ...



xD lol cause I'm an evil little brat that's directed your mind into that topic!! (Please forgive me, I didn't mean to go off topic. >>; ) BUT animals are like that anyways, not cause of bad experiences. Squirrels are scary... *nods nods* They're very frightening but only cause they wanted their food and I was just sitting next to my bowl of fresh pecans.

But that's besides the point. I'm still trying to say that defense does not create attacks. Attacks can be a form a defense, yes... Counter-attack is a form of defense... But defense is not a form of attack... (kinda like saying that raw fish is sushi but sushi is NOT raw fish or a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is NOT a square)


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## Alblaka (Aug 4, 2008)

It's not a directly attack, but at least it has the same effects as one. And the effects are the things after who we definated what is what, don't we?

If a psychotic kill his children, cuz he wanted to rescue them before other psychotics, we don't say "Hey, this nice guy wanted to save his children!", but we say "He killed the children!", not looking on anything what was before the effect.


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Alblaka said:


> It's not a directly attack, but at least it has the same effects as one. And the effects are the things after who we definated what is what, don't we?
> 
> If a psychotic kill his children, cuz he wanted to rescue them before other psychotics, we don't say "Hey, this nice guy wanted to save his children!", but we say "He killed the children!", not looking on anything what was before the effect.



I didn't mean to, but the psychotic thing threw me off and made me laugh so hard. xD Yes, it's a serious thing, but I couldn't help but laugh.


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## Suntiger (Aug 4, 2008)

Isn't it a bit of catch 22?
If you have a defense force, you will either be attacked or someone in your own forces will misuse his/her power and attack somebody else, with or without a pretext.
However, if you don't have a defensive force, you're going to get attacked anyway, because someone wants what you/your country have.
Or if you take the Carlin route; men go to war because they're insecure about the size of their dicks. (Wait until about 1.40 into the clip.)

To me, having a defense force is a bit like using a seat belt when driving a car.
Sure, it's a bit restrictive, annoying and it frequently chafes, but when the shit hits the fan you're really grateful you used it after all.

Yes, in a world without war it wouldn't be necessary. If there was a chance for that to happen, I'd be prepared to sacrifice a lot to make that come true.
Sadly, I can't see it happen though. We're too greedy and shortsighted by nature (as a group, not as individuals). So far, only by imposing laws and regulations (and customs and ideals) and limiting people's freedoms seem to work, and imperfectly at that. That, and having a body of rough people stand between the idealists and innocents so that they may sleep safely.


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## mukichan (Aug 4, 2008)

Suntiger said:


> Isn't it a bit of catch 22?
> If you have a defense force, you will either be attacked or someone in your own forces will misuse his/her power and attack somebody else, with or without a pretext.
> However, if you don't have a defensive force, you're going to get attacked anyway, because someone wants what you/your country have.
> Or if you take the Carlin route; men go to war because they're insecure about the size of their dicks. (Wait until about 1.40 into the clip.)
> ...



If only a world without war is possible.... ;_;


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## sablelieger (Aug 5, 2008)

Former US Army MP; 12 years under my belt and one tour of duty in Iraq. I lived my entire career from the top of a Humvee turret behind either an M60, a Mk-19 or an M249 SAW.

Life as a Trunk Monkey was good.


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## ~furfanatic~ (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm an officer in Citizen Advancement Training (CAT-Air Force) in my high school XD........those that count?


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 5, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> I think we kind of innovated on that a bit?  Also, unconventional how?  You mean guerilla tactics?  We use those all the time.  Or do you mean nuclear weapons?  What do you mean?



Read the book, it's hard to define.

Basically, a highly trained commando group inserted into US mainland would wreak havoc, more disruption than the largest army. 

For instance, SpetsNatz had automatic rocket launchers, easily conealable, that could be activated remotely on the outskirts of an airfield (regardless if military or civilian) and reacted to the sound of a plane taking off. And promptly could shoot them down easily. Such an action forces a lockdown of the location until the launcher is found. And even then, there is no telling how many launchers are there.

Now imagine tens of such groups. And milions of such tactics.

America isn't secure, and will never be, unless you become an oppressive fascist state with control chips implanted into people's skulls. Same goes for Europe.


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## ~secret~ (Aug 5, 2008)

I have a bit of military history in me, my great-grandfather was a gunner for Britain in the Battle of Jutland. After that there's my other great-grandfather who fought in the civil war back home. Then six of his children fought in WWII, four joined the British Army because they thought Ireland shouldn't be neutral and the other two fought for America in the Pacific. And finally there was my uncle who was a UN Peacekeeper in Kosovo.

Long post, but I'm proud of what my ancestors did. I was thinking of signing up if I don't like university.


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## Muawiyah Hirate (Aug 5, 2008)

Anyway, today's the day of reckoning for me. As of posting this, in fifteen minutes I'm headed to Ft.Mead to finalize the paperwork and then I'm off to boot camp.
Wish me luck you all, and see you soon!


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## mukichan (Aug 5, 2008)

Muawiyah Hirate said:


> Anyway, today's the day of reckoning for me. As of posting this, in fifteen minutes I'm headed to Ft.Mead to finalize the paperwork and then I'm off to boot camp.
> Wish me luck you all, and see you soon!



GOOD LUCK~!! :3


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## pheonix (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm not in the military but if I can't think of anything to do with my life that is my last resort fall back plan.


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## Azure (Aug 5, 2008)

Muawiyah Hirate said:


> Anyway, today's the day of reckoning for me. As of posting this, in fifteen minutes I'm headed to Ft.Mead to finalize the paperwork and then I'm off to boot camp.
> Wish me luck you all, and see you soon!


Good luck man, keep your head down and all that good stuff.  If ever you get back and read this, do relate your experience, as I am bound for such a place in November or December.  Tips would be nice !


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## ~secret~ (Aug 5, 2008)

Muawiyah Hirate said:


> Anyway, today's the day of reckoning for me. As of posting this, in fifteen minutes I'm headed to Ft.Mead to finalize the paperwork and then I'm off to boot camp.
> Wish me luck you all, and see you soon!



Good luck to you, I hope you come back safely.


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## Tansunn (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm in the Army.  Have been for 3.5 years.  I joined after listening to my recruiter talk a lot but without giving it enough personal thought.  I'm not sure if I would call it a bad decision, as it has definitely been a learning experience for me, resulting in a lot of personal and spiritual growth, but at the same time, I wouldn't exactly call it the _right_ choice for me either.  I've learned many things about myself that, if I had known them at the time, would have kept me from joining.  Less than 6 months to go until my ETS date, though...

At least now I can relate a bit when my family tells me stories.  My grandpa on my mom's side, and my dad and his sister were all in the Army as well.


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## mukichan (Aug 7, 2008)

Tansunn said:


> I'm in the Army.  Have been for 3.5 years.  I joined after listening to my recruiter talk a lot but without giving it enough personal thought.  I'm not sure if I would call it a bad decision, as it has definitely been a learning experience for me, resulting in a lot of personal and spiritual growth, but at the same time, I wouldn't exactly call it the _right_ choice for me either.  I've learned many things about myself that, if I had known them at the time, would have kept me from joining.  Less than 6 months to go until my ETS date, though...
> 
> At least now I can relate a bit when my family tells me stories.  My grandpa on my mom's side, and my dad and his sister were all in the Army as well.



I personally don't think there's such thing as a bad decision or a good decision... It's either a fuckup or a "Thank God I'm alive!" moment.

But awesome!! Seems like alot of military furs are in the Army.


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## Nyro (Aug 7, 2008)

Going to be shipping off to Basic Training in November, I'm completely dead-set on this choice in the USAF as a future, and possibly a career, so I voted "In the Air Force."


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## Azure (Aug 7, 2008)

Nyro said:


> Going to be shipping off to Basic Training in November, I'm completely dead-set on this choice in the USAF as a future, and possibly a career, so I voted "In the Air Force."


Career plox?


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## Rayne (Aug 7, 2008)

Not military, not likely to be at any point for various reasons. However, I do come from a family with a rather heavy military history in all of the services, so I am rather pro-military regardless.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 7, 2008)

http://skippyslist.com/list/

Reminder


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## mukichan (Aug 7, 2008)

Nyro said:


> Going to be shipping off to Basic Training in November, I'm completely dead-set on this choice in the USAF as a future, and possibly a career, so I voted "In the Air Force."



awesome!! YAY USAF!! x3 And thanks for the nice comment in my journal~!


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## darkdy50 (Aug 7, 2008)

im not in the military but my mom was so im a military brat, i suport our military 100% but i dont think that we soud pull out just because the media says were losing


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## mukichan (Aug 7, 2008)

Not bashing on anyone, but I noticed a few people voted that they're not a supporter of the military... I was curious to hear your opinion why you say so. We're all entitled to different opinions and such. But I'd like to hear the other person's story. I for one support our brothers and sisters. Their bravery and willingness to head out onto the field is admirable, in my opinion. I don't support the war, but I support our troop's decision to protect their country.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 7, 2008)

It's propably due to a badly designed poll. You're either a goody-two shoes Jesus that support the US military and it's soldiers, or a puppie-devouring Hitler/Stalin hybrid that doesn't.

Most people who voted "don't support" propably don't mean the soldiers themselves, but rather the army itself or their current engagements.


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## mukichan (Aug 7, 2008)

sorry about the poll, just... xD Brain was running off of an hour of sleep when I made it.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 7, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Read the book, it's hard to define.
> 
> Basically, a highly trained commando group inserted into US mainland would wreak havoc, more disruption than the largest army.
> 
> ...



Essentially you're talking about "asymmetric warfare", right?


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## mukichan (Aug 8, 2008)

guess the thread wanted to die...


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 8, 2008)

Mayfurr said:


> Essentially you're talking about "asymmetric warfare", right?



Really assymetric.


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## Azure (Aug 8, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Read the book, it's hard to define.
> 
> Basically, a highly trained commando group inserted into US mainland would wreak havoc, more disruption than the largest army.
> 
> ...


And you think we haven't such tactics at our disposal as well?  I was simply speaking of army against army, not some random rocket launcher attack.  There is no such thing as true security, but if you could sneak command teams in, why waste time, just sneak in nuclear bombs and end the bloody thing, right?  I truly don't think that a few little rockets are going to stop a military machine as large as ours. And then theres the whole thing of ya know, DRIVING UP TO A MILITARY BASE.  Our air bases aren't exactly in the most, accessible places, just try looking them up on Google Earth, you'll see what I mean.  Even our civilian airfields are pretty secure, note the lack of hijackings, and airport security breaches.  It's pretty difficult to run around in America with a ROCKET LAUNCHER, this isn't GTA ya know.


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## Wait Wait (Aug 8, 2008)

azure you should fear me dropping infinite amounts of trucks on your army base, not a rocket launcher


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 8, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> And you think we haven't such tactics at our disposal as well?  I was simply speaking of army against army, not some random rocket launcher attack.  There is no such thing as true security, but if you could sneak command teams in, why waste time, just sneak in nuclear bombs and end the bloody thing, right?  I truly don't think that a few little rockets are going to stop a military machine as large as ours. And then theres the whole thing of ya know, DRIVING UP TO A MILITARY BASE.  Our air bases aren't exactly in the most, accessible places, just try looking them up on Google Earth, you'll see what I mean.  Even our civilian airfields are pretty secure, note the lack of hijackings, and airport security breaches.  It's pretty difficult to run around in America with a ROCKET LAUNCHER, this isn't GTA ya know.



Ugh. Not *random*. A *series* of *coordinated* strikes. 

And I'm talking highly trained commandos, not a bunch of rag-tag terrorists which is what you are considering.

Not to mention that the bigger the machine, the more faulty parts can be found inside. 

Seriously, read the book.


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## wolfmagik (Aug 8, 2008)

Alright, just voted and read all of this so far. I'm in the Air Force, this 5th of September will be my 2-year mark.



Houshou said:


> United States Air Force.



Good man.



AzurePhoenix said:


> I'm joining the Air Force this November, but the career choice is still up in the air a bit. Either something Intelligence related, EOD, or Air Traffic Controller. All good civilian careers when you get back to the world.



If you enjoy computers, be a 3C. I'm a 3C031. Plenty of opportunities once you go civilian. We're talking all kinds of certifications paid for. I've almost got my Cisco certification, I already have Network+, A+, and Security+.



AzurePhoenix said:


> If ever you get back and read this, do relate your experience, as I am bound for such a place in November or December. Tips would be nice!



Tips: Air Force Basic is almost 100% mind games. For example, your TI is really NOT a ridiculously huge asshole. Its only his job to put you under stress, and being an asshole is the easiest way to do that. Expect a lot of conflicting orders, time limits, and other high-pressure situations. Just keep your cool, and you'll do fine. Also, ask your recruiter what the current PT standards are for graduating BMT, and MAKE SURE YOU CAN DO THEM BEFORE YOU GO. TRUST me on this. While you're there, there will be lots of unhealthy crap in the chow hall, but you will be forbidden from eating most of it. Eat healthy while you're there. If its close to graduation time, and your TI or someone else says its perfectly fine to eat whatever you want, even the extra-good stuff that you've been forbidden from for the past weeks, DON'T EAT IT. Most of my flight in BMT fell for that, and right after everyone was finished stuffing themselves, we had a 'surprise PT session' that lasted until everyone that ate the stuff puked. If you find something you don't like, don't complain. It won't change anything. Remember, basic training is only for a few short weeks, just do what they say and you'll be fine. For the first week or two, one of the senior BMT flights will be doing Entry Controller duty for you. Sometimes these guys are nice. Sometimes they are assholes. If they are assholes, waking people up in the night for no good reason, let your TI know. ...that's all I can remember right now. Above all, KEEP YOUR COOL. Its all designed to see how you work under pressure.



Mikael Grizzly said:


> http://skippyslist.com/list/
> Reminder



HAHAHA, those are just awesome.

"I will not tell new recruits that claymore mines are filled with 'yummy candy'." XD


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## Azure (Aug 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Ugh. Not *random*. A *series* of *coordinated* strikes.
> 
> And I'm talking highly trained commandos, not a bunch of rag-tag terrorists which is what you are considering.
> 
> ...


I apologize, what I was trying to express was that Armchair Warfighters writing speculative books do not a sound tactic make.  


wolfmagik said:


> If you enjoy computers, be a 3C. I'm a 3C031. Plenty of opportunities once you go civilian. We're talking all kinds of certifications paid for. I've almost got my Cisco certification, I already have Network+, A+, and Security+.
> 
> 
> 
> Tips: Air Force Basic is almost 100% mind games. For example, your TI is really NOT a ridiculously huge asshole. Its only his job to put you under stress, and being an asshole is the easiest way to do that. Expect a lot of conflicting orders, time limits, and other high-pressure situations. Just keep your cool, and you'll do fine. Also, ask your recruiter what the current PT standards are for graduating BMT, and MAKE SURE YOU CAN DO THEM BEFORE YOU GO. TRUST me on this. While you're there, there will be lots of unhealthy crap in the chow hall, but you will be forbidden from eating most of it. Eat healthy while you're there. If its close to graduation time, and your TI or someone else says its perfectly fine to eat whatever you want, even the extra-good stuff that you've been forbidden from for the past weeks, DON'T EAT IT. Most of my flight in BMT fell for that, and right after everyone was finished stuffing themselves, we had a 'surprise PT session' that lasted until everyone that ate the stuff puked. If you find something you don't like, don't complain. It won't change anything. Remember, basic training is only for a few short weeks, just do what they say and you'll be fine. For the first week or two, one of the senior BMT flights will be doing Entry Controller duty for you. Sometimes these guys are nice. Sometimes they are assholes. If they are assholes, waking people up in the night for no good reason, let your TI know. ...that's all I can remember right now. Above all, KEEP YOUR COOL. Its all designed to see how you work under pressure.


Thanks for the tips, I've heard as much from my buddy in the army.  I'm VERY well aware of the physical aspects, which is what I've been working on for some time now.  I'm not a very fast runner, due to my build, which at almost six foot, I'm probably less than half leg.  My torso is ridiculous, but were almost there in the weight class.  It's just too bad that the whole thing has to wait for almost six months to happen, I'm ready to go NOW.  I get the nice bonus of my college education, which puts me in at E-3.  Do you know what this may entail?


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 9, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> I apologize, what I was trying to express was that Armchair Warfighters writing speculative books do not a sound tactic make.



Here's a clue, Captain Clueless. And here's a second one.


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## Tansunn (Aug 9, 2008)

@AzurePhoenix - I came into the military as E-3, too.  In my case, all it did was make me feel guilty about being a higher rank than some of the lower-rank soldiers who actually had some kind of understanding about what was going on.  With the way the army currently is, there really isn't much difference from E-1 to E-4 aside from how much you get paid.  Can't say if it'd be any different in the air force, though...

From my experience, wolfmagik was pretty much spot-on with regards to basic training.  I honestly don't know what else to add to what he said.


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## Kyoujin (Aug 9, 2008)

Semper Fidelis. ;]

Marine Corps. <3


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## Azure (Aug 9, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Here's a clue, Captain Clueless. And here's a second one.


Heres me still not caring :3.  Also, the Spetsnatz sucked anyway.  Show me the day that they can run around in broad daylight with sophisticated rocket launcher assemblies, infiltrate private land that is TODAY guarded rather heavily, and not get popped by the police, immigration, or some random shitty security guard.  It sounds outdated, and it probably is.  Also, the first guy, didn't even work with Russian intelligence, and was a tanker before, so says the article.  Not very convincing.



Tansunn said:


> @AzurePhoenix - I came into the military as E-3, too. In my case, all it did was make me feel guilty about being a higher rank than some of the lower-rank soldiers who actually had some kind of understanding about what was going on. With the way the army currently is, there really isn't much difference from E-1 to E-4 aside from how much you get paid. Can't say if it'd be any different in the air force, though...
> 
> From my experience, wolfmagik was pretty much spot-on with regards to basic training. I honestly don't know what else to add to what he said.



Cool, right on, although my family does have a rather deep military background, so I do have some idea of whats going on.  I just simply wondered if they broke it off in your ass a little harder, is all.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 9, 2008)

I don't care about you either.


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## wolfmagik (Aug 10, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> I don't care about you either.



...then why are you posting? I hate internet arguments, they're pointless and have the power to completely derail threads like NOTHING else.



AzurePhoenix said:


> Thanks for the tips, I've heard as much from my buddy in the army. I'm VERY well aware of the physical aspects, which is what I've been working on for some time now. I'm not a very fast runner, due to my build, which at almost six foot, I'm probably less than half leg. My torso is ridiculous, but were almost there in the weight class. It's just too bad that the whole thing has to wait for almost six months to happen, I'm ready to go NOW. I get the nice bonus of my college education, which puts me in at E-3. Do you know what this may entail?



Getting the rank bonus because of a college education means you will graduate basic as an E-3. I signed up for 6 years, so they gave me E-3 about a month after I graduated. As far as I can tell, there is no difference between E-1 through E-3. [Airman Basic, Airman, and Airman First Class] when you hit E-4 [Senior Airman] you're expected to know your shit and be semi-proficient. E-1 through E-3 you're expected to know what you're doing somewhat, but your primary job is to learn. E-5 is the first Non-Commissioned Officer [NCO] rank, Staff Sergeant. You need to test to get Staff Sergeant and all the enlisted ranks on up. After Staff Sergeant is Tech Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Senior Master Sergeant, and Chief Master Sergeant. I don't know anything about promotions and stuff in the officer ranks, all i know is that they're O-1 through O-10: Second Lieutenant, First Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General, and General (4-star). So yeah, that's the AF Rank structure. the Officer ranks are the same for the Army, Air Force, and Marines. Navy's the weird bunch.  [j/k]


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## NightStripes (Nov 5, 2011)

Im currently in the usmc staitioned out in Camp Schwab, Okinawa (Okitraz) Japan with 3rd Combat Assault Battalion 3rd Mar Div.


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## ramsay_baggins (Nov 5, 2011)

Necro


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