# Representation of LGBTQ Folks According to Clementime Productions



## ResolutionBlaze (Aug 30, 2018)

World of Warcraft is down, because everytime Blizzard puts out a patch, it breaks every single server they own.  So I figured I would respond to a video since Blizzard doesn't want me to enjoy myself.
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For those who have no interest or intent in watching it all the way through, here is the essentially what the creator is saying (yes I've watched the whole thing).
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A piece of media that does not display a character's struggles around the fact that they are LGBTQ or a minority of some sort is not a good representation of them.  The reasoning behind this is that LGBTQ and minority groups experience persecution daily, and not showing that in a piece of media is not a representation of LGBTQ/minorities because it doesn't depict their real-world struggles.
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I have several things wrong with this.  I made a long, drawn out comment on the video itself so I'll paste some of it here along with additional thoughts.
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My issue with his argument isn't the representation of struggles.  I do think some stories would do well with such.  But I take issue with the idea that any and all characters who do not have struggles directly tied to their sexuality or race are an illegitimate representation of said sexuality or race.
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My main issue with this philosophy that it is so restricting to what can be considered representation, and is generally unfair to the stories being told.
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If my story takes place in a post-apocolyptic world, do I have to show a LGBTQ character struggling with their queerness in order to be considered legitimate to Clem's terms?  If it's a fantasy world where race isn't an issue between humans, must I really be considered illegitimate because I do not represent struggles in the real world?  If it's Sci-fi where issues like this are far behind us, do I still have to replay the "bigoted" plotline for my LGBTQ characters?  It sets an unfair expectation for stories and gives them a lack of appreciation, even if the LGBTQ characters in question are fantastically written and masterfully told; if they are somehow not an Avatar of Modern Oppression, they are illegitimate as representations of these communities.
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Another thing I take issue with; the idea that these communities can be represented by the exact same struggles.  Even if the struggles stem from a similar source, the person in the video seems to ignore the fact that the examples of "good representation" he talks about are results of the environment the character was in, not a direct result of his race or sexuality.  Everything he talks about ignores environment altogether, or if it doesn't, it makes the case that all among these communities can only be represented by a single story trope, and thus the same environmental factors.  This goes back into the restrictiveness of what constitutes as "representation".  I'm also a member of LGBTQ; I don't recall ever asking Clem to tell me what constitutes as a quality representation of the community I share.
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One final thing I wanna say about it, which I touched on briefly; this is how tropes and stereotypes are born.  Its when the same narrative device is used again and again until it becomes systematic.  We struggle with stereotypical or trope-based narratives today, and people tend not to be too fond of it, especially when it's the same take on a trope done over and over again.  Take the "strong, female character" trope.  There are examples that are agreed upon as being done well and many done poorly, examples of it being done poorly is when the "strong, female character" is an unlikable bitch; loudmouthed, overconfident, ruthless isolationist/social outcast, and usually man-hating or aggressive toward men.  It's something we've seen a bunch of times, usually with the same or similar backstory that tends to be unsatisfactory.  I find it ironic that an example of glorified female representation in gaming was Metroid, when Samus was revealed to be female at the end, giving no other indication otherwise.  It was a nice reveal, and likely if done again would be considered weak, but at the time?  It really impressed the gaming industry and gamers alike, to this day the reveal is still talked about; ironically, that reveal is the opposite of what Clem claims constitudes proper representation, yet it was considered one of the most empowering symbols and reveals in gaming.


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## Sunburst_Odell (Aug 31, 2018)

I watched this video as well and I absolutely agree with you. While I do think LGBT characters shouldn't be acting completely non-LGBT and just declared as such by the author with no evidence shown in their media whatsoever, them struggling with their gender and/or sexuality shouldn't _have _to be a plot point. It can be, but like you said, it can become a trope so there should be some sort of creativity added to spice things up... although I can't give any examples since I don't like writing oppression stories personally because I don't know how to write them.

I'm working on an animation, based off a story I had written, right now featuring a homosexual relationship--it is clear both characters are male and that they have romantic feelings for each other, but I do not have it that either of them are struggling with their sexualities but rather other struggles. They do acknowledge that this is out of the norm, but don't really care; they have other problems. Making them have that struggle would distract the story-line, especially since their relationship is secret for reasons unrelated to them being gay. I really don't feel that this makes them inaccurate.

It is true that, sadly, people in the world are still struggling. In some countries, being gay is still frowned upon or even life-threatening. Even in America, some unfortunate kids get accidentally outed and get bullied because they might live in an area where a lot of people aren't so accepting. That being said, I don't think every single gay or non-binary person is oppressed. In some instances, they seem to be living in an accepting family and aren't bothered much by the haters. I mean, I can't say for sure because I don't know them personally; I only use my knowledge from hearing people online. But it seems unlikely that they're _always _oppressed.


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## Pompadork (Aug 31, 2018)

YESSSS I wholeheartedly agree with both of ypu guys. Imo the ctual worst kind of LGBTQ character is one that’s either vaguely hinted at or decided after the creator gets pressured over Twitter or something. Stuff like the “implied 2.5 second gay scene” in Beauty and the Beast or JK Rowling pulling random minority characters out of her ass for brownie points on Twitter. You absolutely don’t need any sort of struggle for a character to count, in fact I think a lot of LGBTQ people including me are so tired of it? It’s ok for there to be drama but sometimes you want a sweet lesbian couple that’s not gonna risk their lives the whole movie just to be together or a trans kid who’s not gonna be shown being shunned by their whole family. 

Sometimes you just want an LGBTQ who’sexistance is _normalized_. Some of us are already facing our own struggle on a daily basis. We don’t want to be reminded of it in the media everywhere we turn or be seen as some big beam of inspiration just cause some of us might have faced prejudice? Is it ok to have characters who struggle? Yeah. But are only the characters who struggle valid? Absolutely not. Sometimes we just want some good wholesome representation without having to worry about the bury your gays trope or accidentally boarding an angst filled adventure in “muh struggleeee”.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 31, 2018)

I strongly disagree.
Being a lesbian, gay or bisexual (I'm purposefully ignoring the other letters of the alphabet soup) should be treated as a normal thing, just as heterosexuality is. It shouldn't be a big deal and I absolutely hate forced diversity and "boohoo my entire tragic backstory is because I'm gay".

Having media that treats it as a normal thing helps people believe that it's a normal thing. If it's treated like a big deal, people will see it as a big deal. Which is also (one of the reasons) why I despise Pride.

I'm not gay, and I don't think I qualify as bisexual even, but I am in a same-sex relationship. It's beyond infuriating when people act like it's such a big deal, no matter if their intentions are positive or negative.

No, my boyfriend and I are not "brave" or "inspiring" for being together. You want brave? Then comment on the fact that my boyfriend has survived numerous physical and mental health obstacles and is still here today, THAT'S brave.

And no, we are not special or quirky for being in a same sex relationship. Stop calling us "hella gay" when neither of us are homosexual nor want to be referred to as such. There is no such thing as "the gay aesthetic" or "the gay culture." Don't ask us which one of us "the man" or "the submissive."

Honestly, over-acceptance to the point of stupidity is worse to me than intolerance. People are shocked when I say I want to move back to Russia.
"Why would you want to do that, you'll be HATED for being with him!"

Maybe so, but at least people will avoid us instead of pestering us and demanding to know every detail of our lives, treating us like fictional characters and celebrities, and slapping a bunch of labels and stereotypes on us. If we are "hated" then at least we will be left alone.


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## Infrarednexus (Aug 31, 2018)

Personally, as a gay man, I don't like how the movie and gaming industry portrays me. They present gays like myself as helpless victims who are powerless and dependent on our straight counterparts to speak up for us when we are attacked by an intolerant character. I am perfectly capable of fighting back and standing up to bigotry towards homosexuals such as myself, and I don't want a movie, show, or video game to ever make it look like I can't.

They also stereotype us too, which is incredibly ironic. These forms of media often make us gays look over sensitive, fragile, and afraid of conflict. I don't appreciate that one bit. I am strong and brave enough to stand up for myself and other gays whenever I need to. I can also throw a pretty damn hard punch if things get physical, and people who have tried to hurt me have learned that pretty quick. In terms of appearance, most of us are so similar to straights that you can't even tell the difference. We don't all dress in expensive and hip clothing and talk in a sassy accent and high pitched voice.

They also need to stop emphasizing that a character is gay in these things. It's not our most powerful quality, and it distracts the people from the more important characteristics like resilience, bravery, strength, humor, and compassion that gays have in real life. I understand that these people are trying to help, but they are really pissing me off with the way they are doing it.


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## Troj (Aug 31, 2018)

Essentially, it's about setting up a plausible, compelling interplay between your  characters and the world they inhabit, and being deliberate and thoughtful about what you want that interaction to "say" to the audience. 

If you have a character who feels deeply insecure about having blue eyes, or who is totally nonchalant about being gay, that tells us something about them, it potentially signals something about the world they inhabit, and it communicates something to the reader about the real world, intentionally or not.

People tend to cry "foul" when characters' motivations and traits either don't make sense in their world, or don't make sense, period. People will also turn away when characters' motivations and dilemmas fail to resonate with them.

Whether your character is proud of their red hair, shy about their blue eyes, or doesn't think twice about being gay, those traits are still going to interact with the other various aspects of their personality, perspective and life. It's a cheat to have a supposedly-gay character who behaves and thinks_ exactly_ like the heterosexual characters, because what's the point? Savvy people tend to chafe at "diversity" that's only skin deep.

So, focusing exclusively on LGBTQ characters, people tend to get annoyed when:

Nothing particularly signals that the character is queer outside of the Word of God, because the character acts and thinks exactly like the hetero-cis characters.
When everything seems implausibly hunky-dory without a plausible in-universe reason for it

When everything is drama and oppression, and queer characters all inevitably meet tragic ends.
When a character's queerness is their only defining feature, and all of their motivations and goals are tied up in being queer.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 31, 2018)

At 2 minutes 20 the person who made the video says that they_ don't _believe that every gay character's story needs to be about their struggles against persecution. 

So the opening post is getting upset about a claim the video doesn't make in the first place...


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## ResolutionBlaze (Aug 31, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> At 2 minutes 20 the person who made the video says that they_ don't _believe that every gay character's story needs to be about their struggles against persecution.
> 
> So the opening post is getting upset about a claim the video doesn't make in the first place...



I was very particular with my wording here.

If you watch further in the video, he claims that while it isnt required it doesnt count as representation, which was the point I disagreed with.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 31, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I was very particular with my wording here.
> 
> If you watch further in the video, he claims that while it isnt required it doesnt count as representation, which was the point I disagreed with.



Basically it looks like all this video is complaining about is 'gay' characters, where the fact that they are gay is never manifest in the story at all. 
When people write characters like that it can give the impression that the gay character is just a sanitised attempt to score points for being 'representative', like with JK Rowling's post hoc revelation that Dumbledore is gay. 

So I'm not sure you and the video's author have any reason to disagree with each other.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Aug 31, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Basically it looks like all this video is complaining about is 'gay' characters, where the fact that they are gay is never manifest in the story at all.
> When people write characters like that it can give the impression that the gay character is just a sanitised attempt to score points for being 'representative', like with JK Rowling's post hoc revelation that Dumbledore is gay.
> 
> So I'm not sure you and the video's author have any reason to disagree with each other.



Have you watched the whole video, Fallow?


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## Fallowfox (Aug 31, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Have you watched the whole video, Fallow?



All apart from the last 4 minutes because my computer crashed (was running a script in the background and it was too much for my laptop)

I don't know...I kinda am getting the vibe that you were _looking _for something to get offended by in the video.

There's not really any offensive content.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Aug 31, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> All apart from the last 4 minutes because my computer crashed (was running a script in the background and it was too much for my laptop)
> 
> I don't know...I kinda am getting the vibe that you were _looking _for something to get offended by in the video.
> 
> There's not really any offensive content.



I'm not offended by anything in this video.

Furthermore the creator stated that the only legitimate representation is if a character has their LGBT or Race intertwined as a part of their character, and if it is done otherwise then it is not a valid representation of LGBT people.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 31, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I'm not offended by anything in this video.
> 
> Furthermore the creator stated that the only legitimate representation is if a character has their LGBT or Race intertwined as a part of their character, and if it is done otherwise then it is not a valid representation of LGBT people.



The author summed up their views as 'basically the idea that a good gay character is a character who never actually talks about being gay 
is a stupid idea,'. 
I don't think they're implying that the only acceptable gay characters are ones whose experience being gay is defined by persecution, or who are one dimensional gay stereotypes.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 31, 2018)

Also, I need to point out - "queer" is really not a nice word to call lesbian/gay/bisexual people. Sure, some use it for themselves, but that's also true of the word fag, and it's not socially acceptable to go around calling them that, is it?


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## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Sep 2, 2018)

I don't generally enjoy talking about my sexuality much because of the deliberately created culture that has formed around perceptions of it. Like, I absolutely despise the whole LGBTQWERTYASDF+ movement/community thingy because 1) I've never asked to be admitted to any random group 2) I don't feel any different from the straight folk so the way I see it some artificial separation is both meaningless and in the long run even potentially harmful 3) I don't really identify as gay either, I'm just interested in men and that's it. Sure the word is a convenient rough abstraction of my sexual preferences but that's where its usage ends for me 4) The movement is cringy as fuck, filled with cancerous people and I don't recognize many of its objectives


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Also, I need to point out - "queer" is really not a nice word to call lesbian/gay/bisexual people. Sure, some use it for themselves, but that's also true of the word fag, and it's not socially acceptable to go around calling them that, is it?



I'm gay. There's nothing wrong with the word queer. It's only nasty if somebody's using it derisively.

Okay :  "I think more queer representation in cinema is a good idea,"

Not okay: "I sacked Jim because I found out he's a fucking queer,"



Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf said:


> I don't generally enjoy talking about my sexuality much because of the deliberately created culture that has formed around perceptions of it. Like, I absolutely despise the whole LGBTQWERTYASDF+ movement/community thingy because 1) I've never asked to be admitted to any random group 2) I don't feel any different from the straight folk so the way I see it some artificial separation is both meaningless and in the long run even potentially harmful 3) I don't really identify as gay either, I'm just interested in men and that's it. Sure the word is a convenient rough abstraction of my sexual preferences but that's where its usage ends for me 4) The movement is cringy as fuck, filled with cancerous people and I don't recognize many of its objectives



Basically in most countries in the world gay, bi and trans folk have less rights than everyone else. 
In those countries where we do have comparatively more rights, this is only because people who came before us spent a lot of effort forming political causes.
So that's why political groups exist, and it's important that they exist, even if there are youtube videos making fun of them.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm gay. There's nothing wrong with the word queer. It's only nasty if somebody's using it derisively.
> 
> Okay :  "I think more queer representation in cinema is a good idea,"
> 
> Not okay: "I sacked Jim because I found out he's a fucking queer,"



No, it's not okay to call anyone that if you don't know that they're okay with it. Especially if they do not consider themselves LGBT.

Like 'faggot', it's not something you should call people you don't know, even if you mean it in a 'positive way.'

My relationship is not a 'queer relationship.' I am not 'a queer.' Do not refer to me as such, or anyone else that hasn't actually said they're fine with it. In all honestly I'd rather be called a fag than queer.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> No, it's not okay to call anyone that if you don't know that they're okay with it. Especially if they do not consider themselves LGBT.
> 
> Like 'faggot', it's not something you should call people you don't know, even if you mean it in a 'positive way.'
> 
> My relationship is not a 'queer relationship.' I am not 'a queer.' Do not refer to me as such, or anyone else that hasn't actually said they're fine with it. In all honestly I'd rather be called a fag than queer.



I think this is more an issue about you accepting yourself, than whether the word 'queer' is offensive.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> I think this is more an issue about you accepting yourself, than whether the word 'queer' is offensive.



No, it's not.
Many people object to the word 'queer' as a blanket term, and not just because it can be offensive.

Personally, I don't care. I don't actually think homophobia is much of a problem, I think the concept of 'slurs' is laughable, and I don't care if people try to insult me.

But the reason I don't want to be called 'queer' is simply because A) I'm neither homosexual or bisexual, and B), even if I was I wouldn't want to be lumped in with the gender parade, polyamory, and other stuff that has nothing to do with homosexuality.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> No, it's not.
> Many people object to the word 'queer' as a blanket term, and not just because it can be offensive.
> 
> Personally, I don't care. I don't actually think homophobia is much of a problem, I think the concept of 'slurs' is laughable, and I don't care if people try to insult me.
> ...



So you're sexually attracted to men, you're in a relationship with a man, but you're not comfortable admitting that's gay? 

Anyway, I think queer is just a shorter way of saying 'lgbt-etc' which is easier to pronounce. x3 
All that stuff about being queer meaning that you have to be friends with stereotypical people with blue hair, who spend all their time screeching?
That's just a fiction that exists on youtube. One invented by people who want to put gay people back in the closet. People who want to make us feel uncomfortable about even admitting that we are gay.


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## Infrarednexus (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So you're sexually attracted to men, you're in a relationship with a man, but you're not comfortable admitting that's gay?
> 
> Anyway, I think queer is just a shorter way of saying 'lgbt-etc' which is easier to pronounce. x3
> All that stuff about being queer meaning that you have to be friends with stereotypical people with blue hair, who spend all their time screeching?
> That's just a fiction that exists on youtube. One invented by people who want to put gay people back in the closet. People who want to make us feel uncomfortable about even admitting that we are gay.


Thank you.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So you're sexually attracted to men, you're in a relationship with a man, but you're not comfortable admitting that's gay?
> 
> Anyway, I think queer is just a shorter way of saying 'lgbt-etc' which is easier to pronounce. x3
> All that stuff about being queer meaning that you have to be friends with stereotypical people with blue hair, who spend all their time screeching?
> That's just a fiction that exists on youtube. One invented by people who want to put gay people back in the closet. People who want to make us feel uncomfortable about even admitting that we are gay.



Nope, I'm not attracted to men.
I'm only attracted to my boyfriend because he doesn't look like one. Male appearances, and men in general, are huge turn offs.

Yeah, but I don't support the LGBT as it is today. If I was bisexual I would not want to be included. I don't think gender nonsense, polyamory, and BDSM have a place alongside gay rights.

Plus the gay community can be pretty gross at times. Like the whole drag queen scene. Ugh.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Yeah, but I don't support the LGBT as it is today. If I was bisexual I would not want to be included. I don't think gender nonsense, polyamory, and BDSM have a place alongside gay rights.
> Plus the gay community can be pretty gross at times. Like the whole drag queen scene. Ugh.



Next thing we'll be hanging out posting on forums with *Furries*.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Next thing we'll be hanging out posting on forums with *Furries*.



What?
Furry stuff isn't inherently sexist mockery, is it?

Look, all I'm saying is this: Don't call people a rude term unless you have their permission. And it doesn't even have to be a bad word, don't assume people are LGBT. More and more people are rejecting the LGBT community, even if they are lesbian, gay or bisexual.

And definitely don't assume what strangers sexualities are.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> What?
> Furry stuff isn't inherently sexist mockery, is it?
> 
> Look, all I'm saying is this: Don't call people a rude term unless you have their permission. And it doesn't even have to be a bad word, don't assume people are LGBT. More and more people are rejecting the LGBT community, even if they are lesbian, gay or bisexual.
> ...



If cross-dressing in the queer community makes you uncomfortable, you better strap in for a wild ride when it comes to the furries.

If the queer community is a soy latte, we're a double shot of espresso. ;D


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## Infrarednexus (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> If cross-dressing in the queer community makes you uncomfortable, you better strap in for a wild ride when it comes to the furries.
> 
> If the queer community is a soy latte, we're a double shot of espresso. ;D


You're killing me here, Fallow XD


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> If cross-dressing in the queer community makes you uncomfortable, you better strap in for a wild ride when it comes to the furries.
> 
> If the queer community is a soy latte, we're a double shot of espresso. ;D



It's not just crossdressing, it's crossdressing with the intent of mocking women because_ haha women are so funny and dumb am I right?!_
Though, you're right, the crossdressing fetishes in the furry community also disgust me. They're slightly different from drag, but still have sexist undertones, or are just plain creepy.

But I'm not a furry, just an outsider. And there's plenty of other socially unacceptable shit among furries. It's nothing new.

Also on a side note; whenever someone says "queer community", I automatically assume "gender identity and bored polyamorous straight people" community. Just saying.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> It's not just crossdressing, it's *crossdressing with the intent of mocking women* because_ haha women are so funny and dumb am I right?!_
> Though, you're right, the crossdressing fetishes in the furry community also disgust me. They're slightly different from drag, but still have sexist undertones, or are just plain creepy.
> 
> But I'm not a furry, just an outsider. And there's plenty of other socially unacceptable shit among furries. It's nothing new.
> ...



That's not why people cross dress. 

Well, maybe apart from Monty Python; but is anybody actually offended when John Cleese dresses up as a member of the town's women's guild?


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> That's not why people cross dress.
> 
> Well, maybe apart from Monty Python; but is anybody actually offended when John Cleese dresses up as a member of the town's women's guild?



Again, Drag Queens and "normal" (LOL) crossdressers are different things.
People "crossdress" for all sorts of reasons. It's usually never a non-sexist or non-creepy version.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Again, Drag Queens and "normal" (LOL) crossdressers are different things.
> People "crossdress" for all sorts of reasons. It's usually never a non-sexist or non-creepy version.



You're right that people cross dress for lots of reasons. They're not hurting anybody and drag queens definitely don't want to promote sexist attitudes towards women. 
So live and let live. People in life are going to enjoy things you think are weird, but you can still get along with them. 

That's why things like the furry community are so much fun. If you want to dress up as a giant skunk in a tutu ( @Simo ) then go ahead; rock that look! C:


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## Simo (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> You're right that people cross dress for lots of reasons. They're not hurting anybody and drag queens definitely don't want to promote sexist attitudes towards women.
> So live and let live. People in life are going to enjoy things you think are weird, but you can still get along with them.
> 
> That's why things like the furry community are so much fun. If you want to dress up as a giant skunk in a tutu ( @Simo ) then go ahead; rock that look! C:



Though otters are more known to be seen in Tutu's....just ask @Massan Otter!


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> You're right that people cross dress for lots of reasons. They're not hurting anybody and drag queens definitely don't want to promote sexist attitudes towards women.
> So live and let live. People in life are going to enjoy things you think are weird, but you can still get along with them.
> 
> That's why things like the furry community are so much fun. If you want to dress up as a giant skunk in a tutu ( @Simo ) then go ahead; rock that look! C:



Are you kidding me? Drag is literally mocking the way men think women act and behave; that's word for word what it is. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

They are hurting people by proxy. They're perpetuating old-fashioned and sexist beliefs. 
Shitty perverted crossdressers are also why nobody takes people like me (female-looking males) seriously, because they think it's some weird hyper-submissive gay sex thing. Yuck.

I don't have to accept or tolerate anything, especially if I find it weird, especially if I find it morally unacceptable. I'm allowed to have an opinion, even if it gets labeled "homophobe." Nobody can make me believe any different.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Are you kidding me? Drag is literally mocking the way men think women act and behave; that's word for word what it is. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
> 
> They are hurting people by proxy. They're perpetuating old-fashioned and sexist beliefs.
> Shitty perverted crossdressers are also why nobody takes people like me (female-looking males) seriously, because they think it's some weird hyper-submissive gay sex thing. Yuck.
> ...



Comments from RuPaul, famous Drag queen:
_"I do not impersonate females! How many women do you know who wear seven-inch heels, four-foot wigs, and skintight dresses?"
"I don’t dress like a woman; I dress like a drag queen!"_
Of course, not all cross dressing is drag anyway. 

If you want people to tolerate you, you gotta extend them the same courtesy in good faith. You can't expect to live in a world where everybody is nice to you and you get to be snarky to everyone into something that you think is weird.


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## Infrarednexus (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Comments from RuPaul, famous Drag queen:
> _"I do not impersonate females! How many women do you know who wear seven-inch heels, four-foot wigs, and skintight dresses?"
> "I don’t dress like a woman; I dress like a drag queen!"_
> Of course, not all cross dressing is drag anyway.
> ...


I'll be honest. I used to look down on them back when I was young and spent most of my time on Youtube. I learned pretty quick that the LGTBQ Community was not some messed up movement that was meant to be shunned, once I actually sat down and talked with them at my campus after they welcomed me in. They all shared stories of things they had to go through growing up as gays, bisexuals, transgenders, and lesbians and so on. Some of them experienced abuse and rejection, something I unfortunately could relate to. These "cringe" videos that people like to make are just a tiny fraction of the people in them, and is in no way an appropriate way to evaluate and judge them as a whole.

I get it. Some people are very different and can make us uncomfortable, but as you said yourself quite well, we are furries, so are we honestly in any position to play the "shame game"? Many of us furries have faced rejection and mockery that many of these LGTBQ people are actually spending time fighting against to make the world a more open place for people like many of us here. We should thank them for that, even if we find some of the people in them to be odd or as some say,"cringy".


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Comments from RuPaul, famous Drag queen:
> _"I do not impersonate females! How many women do you know who wear seven-inch heels, four-foot wigs, and skintight dresses?"
> "I don’t dress like a woman; I dress like a drag queen!"_
> Of course, not all cross dressing is drag anyway.
> ...



Lol, they can claim what they want but it's obvious what it is. If they weren't mocking women (specifically, hypersexualized stereotypes of women, usually portrayed as "bitchy") they wouldn't be doing "feminine" things to begin with.

I don't give a rat's ass if people tolerate me or not. I'm not going to tolerate disgusting behaviour, and if that means that a few whiny LGBT activist-wannabes hate me, so be it.


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## Infrarednexus (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> I don't give a rat's ass if people tolerate me or not. I'm not going to tolerate disgusting behaviour, and if that means that a few whiny LGBT activist-wannabes hate me, so be it.



Are you seriously going to call these people "whiny" after you made an entire thread earlier today telling them that you would refuse to draw anything related to the LGBTQ spectrum?
forums.furaffinity.net: Will refusing to draw certain topics bring me harassment?
You could have just denied drawing certain things in your original art and exchange thread, but instead you made a whole new one for what it seems like to single them out and make them feel excluded, something that would obviously upset them.

They won't likely hate you for your personal opinions, but they might hate you if you keep displaying this shitty attitude towards them to make them feel like they are somehow bad people that are picking on you.

EDIT: You can forget about considering drawing my character for your free art thread. I'll find someone who won't deny my request for a drawing of my sona being held in the arms of another man out of personal prejudice.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Are you seriously going to call these people "whiny" after you made an entire thread earlier today telling them that you would refuse to draw anything related to the LGBTQ spectrum?
> forums.furaffinity.net: Will refusing to draw certain topics bring me harassment?
> You could have just denied drawing certain things in your original art and exchange thread, but instead you made a whole new one for what it seems like to single them out and make them feel excluded, something that would obviously upset them.
> 
> They won't likely hate you for your personal opinions, but they might hate you if you keep displaying this shitty attitude towards them to make them feel like they are somehow bad people that are picking on you.



Yeah, they're whiny, and also spammers. Which is why I made the thread.
I try to go out of my way to avoid them, so I don't have to have conflict, but apparently that doesn't work.

And no, I'm not talking about my requests thread.
(Though I did get some pretty bad NSFW requests in DMs, but hey, that's furries for you.)
This is about FUTURE COMMISSIONS.

I don't know why you think it's about my requests. Nobody on my thread, to that knowledge, asked me to draw gay sex or whatever. I feel like you're just salty because I haven't done yours, and you're gay, or something along those lines.

I actually have not had any homosexual requests so far. But a whole lot of rather distasteful heterosexual NSFW, which is equally repulsive to me.

With requests I can just deny them for any reason and not have to explain, because I don't owe them anything. But if they try to pay me, I'll probably be asked why if I turn them down, and I'd rather have a disclaimer saying NOT to ask me for specific commissions so I don't have to keep turning them all down.


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## Troj (Sep 2, 2018)

I get that the word "queer" is still triggering for people who are used to hearing it used pejoratively, but I'd argue that it's been embraced and normalized as an umbrella term by the larger LGBTQ community (at least in America).

Many LGBTQ organizations and charities and, hell, even a lot of SJWs use the word without blinking, which tells me it's "arrived" as a generally-okay word to use, as long as the positive intent is present and clear.

Maim's just pointlessly stirring the pot with hair-splitting/concern-trolling here, in my estimation. There are bigger fish to fry.


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## Infrarednexus (Sep 2, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Yeah, they're whiny, and also spammers. Which is why I made the thread.
> I try to go out of my way to avoid them, so I don't have to have conflict, but apparently that doesn't work.
> 
> And no, I'm not talking about my requests thread.
> ...


I don't care if you want to draw mine or not. I have plenty of other talented artists who will happily consider my requests. Enjoy making your art. I'm done dealing with this.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 2, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I don't care if you want to draw mine or not. I have plenty of other talented artists who will happily consider my requests.



Okay? Then don't complain.
That was also a rather passive aggressive response. Nobody owes you free art, especially not with that attitude.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

Troj said:


> I get that the word "queer" is still triggering for people who are used to hearing it used pejoratively, but I'd argue that it's been embraced and normalized as an umbrella term by the larger LGBTQ community (at least in America).
> 
> Many LGBTQ organizations and charities and, hell, even a lot of SJWs use the word without blinking, which tells me it's "arrived" as a generally-okay word to use, as long as the positive intent is present and clear.
> 
> Maim's just pointlessly stirring the pot with hair-splitting/concern-trolling here, in my estimation. There are bigger fish to fry.



In the UK both the words queer and fag are also used in normal speech as words entirely unrelated to 'queer' stuff. x3 

For anybody who doesn't know them, here they are; 

"I was walking through the woods, when I came upon a _queer_ little cabin," 
"After dancing all night long I was _fagged_, and retired to bed," (almost obsolete use- means 'exhausted')
"Got a _fag_?" (Do you have a cigarette?)

I can image Americans becoming dreadfully confused when English people talk about smoking fags. D:


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## ResolutionBlaze (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> The author summed up their views as 'basically the idea that a good gay character is a character who never actually talks about being gay
> is a stupid idea,'.
> I don't think they're implying that the only acceptable gay characters are ones whose experience being gay is defined by persecution, or who are one dimensional gay stereotypes.


I don't think we are communicating our points and interpretations across correctly.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I don't think we are communicating our points and interpretations across correctly.



Perhaps? Basically I think that the video's author isn't arguing for what you think he's arguing for in your OP. 

Several of the posters at the start of your thread express anger at writers who retrospectively label their characters as gay for example. 
The video specifically explained that was a bad example of a gay character. 

So like...people were expressing very similar views to those in the video, but also for some reason talking about how nasty the video's author is.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Perhaps? Basically I think that the video's author isn't arguing for what you think he's arguing for in your OP.
> 
> Several of the posters at the start of your thread express anger at writers who retrospectively label their characters as gay for example.
> The video specifically explained that was a bad example of a gay character.
> ...


We share that view, yes, but that wasn't the point I disagreed with him on.  We expressed our opinion on that matter but that doesn't mean that was the point of contention; it was just a means of showing our stances up to that point.


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## Fallowfox (Sep 2, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> We share that view, yes, but that wasn't the point I disagreed with him on.  We expressed our opinion on that matter but that doesn't mean that was the point of contention; it was just a means of showing our stances up to that point.



Is the point of contention that you think the author suggests that the only sincere representations of gay people would portray them as victims of persecution?


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## ZeroVoidTime (Sep 2, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I'll be honest. I used to look down on them back when I was young and spent most of my time on Youtube. I learned pretty quick that the LGTBQ Community was not some messed up movement that was meant to be shunned, once I actually sat down and talked with them at my campus after they welcomed me in. They all shared stories of things they had to go through growing up as gays, bisexuals, transgenders, and lesbians and so on. Some of them experienced abuse and rejection, something I unfortunately could relate to. These "cringe" videos that people like to make are just a tiny fraction of the people in them, and is in no way an appropriate way to evaluate and judge them as a whole.
> 
> I get it. Some people are very different and can make us uncomfortable, but as you said yourself quite well, we are furries, so are we honestly in any position to play the "shame game"? Many of us furries have faced rejection and mockery that many of these LGTBQ people are actually spending time fighting against to make the world a more open place for people like many of us here. We should thank them for that, even if we find some of the people in them to be odd or as some say,"cringy".


I must point out that humanity regardless of where a human being belongs on the social latter. Is the inherent need to fit in, and make oneself appear normal in comparison to something outside of a norm within society. Since the most easiest and very unfortunate way to do so is to put down another social group by agreeing with the majority of the population in charge. As acting in a familiar way to mainstream culture allows other to feel more comfortable about a unfamiliar subject thus acceptance. Though this is a double-edge sword as with acceptance comes the loss of unique cultural identities, and thus loss of individualism a group present. That and assimilation is a *very* sensitive topic, and can become controversial within said groups.


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## Massan Otter (Sep 2, 2018)

Simo said:


> Though otters are more known to be seen in Tutu's....just ask @Massan Otter!



I'm going to have to accessorise the suit with one, at this rate...


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## Troj (Sep 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> In the UK both the words queer and fag are also used in normal speech as words entirely unrelated to 'queer' stuff. x3



Yeah, I learned that one the hard way. Adults snickered when I used it in the British way as a teenager, and it took me forever to figure out why.

An online discussion group I eventually got banned from (thankfully) had a meltdown when one member used the word "queer," and another member hysterically demanded a trigger warning, setting off a war between the people who were angry about their identity being policed/negated/subjected to a trigger warning and the people who were upset about their triggers not being respected. AND A GRAND TIME WAS HAD BY ALL. :V


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## Fallowfox (Sep 3, 2018)

Troj said:


> Yeah, I learned that one the hard way. Adults snickered when I used it in the British way as a teenager, and it took me forever to figure out why.
> 
> An online discussion group I eventually got banned from (thankfully) had a meltdown when one member used the word "queer," and another member hysterically demanded a trigger warning, setting off a war between the people who were angry about their identity being policed/negated/subjected to a trigger warning and the people who were upset about their triggers not being respected. AND A GRAND TIME WAS HAD BY ALL. :V



My worst linguistic misunderstanding I've had was when I was speaking to somebody and told them that my college was 'Aularian'. 
The word actually means 'This college was once a medieval hall', but to _their _ears it was 'this college is All-Aryan'.


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## Yakamaru (Sep 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> My worst linguistic misunderstanding I've had was when I was speaking to somebody and told them that my college was 'Aularian'.
> The word actually means 'This college was once a medieval hall', but to _their _ears it was 'this college is All-Aryan'.


Bwahahaha. Yeah, that'd confuse a lot of people. And raise a couple of eyebrows.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Sep 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Is the point of contention that you think the author suggests that the only sincere representations of gay people would portray them as victims of persecution?


Yes.  Clem said along the lines of, "You can have stories that just have gay characters, that's fine, but don't pretend they represent us if you can't show them in our modern day struggle."
-
Clem is essentially arguing that in order to have representation you have to represent them in every aspect of their life.  I think Clem essentially mixes up "Representation" with "Relatability"


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