# Piracy - thoughts on this



## ADF (Jun 5, 2010)

So someone I know torrented Guyver Mutronics, a western B-Movie based on the Japanese animation Guyver. I'm a transformation fan; so of course a transformation themed film is going to appeal to me, even if the film itself got bad reviews.

Now he pirated this film, the industry will take issue with that. However my issue with the industry is you cannot actually buy this film, they didn't convert it to DVD from VHS, availability of the film disappeared with the video cassette medium; so illegally downloading the film is the "only" means of acquiring it.

Arguably the only genuine means of acquiring the film is to purchase a cassette of it off ebay (good luck with that); and try to find a old cassette player to watch it, the result of which the film industry still didn't get any money from my enjoyment of the film.

So what's the ethics with this? You obey the law and the film is essentially dead. You break the law and the film industry lost nothing because they don't sell it any more.


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## Tao (Jun 5, 2010)

I think there's no problem with this. It'd be different if the film was something popular like Twilight (not really) or Slumdog Millionare. But if it's something that doesn't exist anywhere else, there's nothing wrong with torrenting it.


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## Morroke (Jun 5, 2010)

You wouldn't download a car


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## Silver Dragon (Jun 5, 2010)

Piracy is bad.  Even though from one standpoint, due to piracy more people will view your work (and possibly even enjoy it), diehard pirate fans are just that.  Pirates.  They will never contribute in any way other than word of mouth to the continuation of your work.  

As for the film, it's their fault that they didn't convert it to DVD, if they wanted more people to see it, they should have put more money into distribution.


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## ADF (Jun 5, 2010)

Silver Dragon said:


> Piracy is bad.  Even though from one standpoint, due to piracy more people will view your work (and possibly even enjoy it), diehard pirate fans are just that.  Pirates.  They will never contribute in any way other than word of mouth to the continuation of your work.
> 
> As for the film, it's their fault that they didn't convert it to DVD, if they wanted more people to see it, they should have put more money into distribution.



So you say piracy is bad; and then say it is the producers fault for not making it available on DVD. But what do you have to say in regard to pirating this movie considering the circumstances?


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## Slyck (Jun 5, 2010)

Windows 3.11 is available for download all over the web. Microsoft hasn't given two sh*ts yet. Same goes with DOS, QuickBasic, etc. No don't get me started on all those Commodore 64 games.

Many similar cases. Ever hear of VetusWare? How about all those episodes of Green Acres on youtube?

Now let's saunter over to those rips of GTA4 and No Country for Old Men.

This is where producers and developers get ticked.

There's piracy, downloading two songs, and than there's Piracy, downloading a car.


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## Silver Dragon (Jun 5, 2010)

ADF said:


> So you say piracy is bad; and then say it is the producers fault for not making it available on DVD. But what do you have to say in regard to pirating this movie considering the circumstances?



I know you're in England, but I think I found your movie on DVD.


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## Misterraptor (Jun 5, 2010)

IMO, if you can figure how to pyrite video games, pc games, or get feer stuff. Then damn, you should get an award.


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## ADF (Jun 5, 2010)

Silver Dragon said:


> I know you're in England, but I think I found your movie on DVD.



That's strange, I specifically remember seeing people complain on forums about there being no DVD release; and my brother was unable to locate it on any of the usual film sites.

As you said it must be region limited, which for a film this old is rather silly.


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## Silver Dragon (Jun 5, 2010)

ADF said:


> That's strange, I specifically remember seeing people complain on forums about there being no DVD release; and my brother was unable to locate it on any of the usual film sites.
> 
> As you said it must be region limited, which for a film this old is rather silly.



Yes, yes it is.

This work for you?

Ships worldwide
Ships to Europe

Now that I think about it, you're damn lucky this movie had Hamill in it, that's probably why it's still around.


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## BroadSmak (Jun 6, 2010)

I've lived in a shithole in sweden all my life, You can't buy movies there..
Well, like 2 years after they're released..


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## Lobar (Jun 6, 2010)

Sounds like the film equivalent of abandonware to me.



Morroke said:


> You wouldn't download a car



if it was possible to download cars I sure as shit would be pirating myself a Bugatti Veyron.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jun 6, 2010)

ADF said:


> So someone I know torrented Guyver Mutronics, a western B-Movie based on the Japanese animation Guyver. I'm a transformation fan; so of course a transformation themed film is going to appeal to me, even if the film itself got bad reviews.
> 
> Now he pirated this film, the industry will take issue with that. However my issue with the industry is you cannot actually buy this film, they didn't convert it to DVD from VHS, availability of the film disappeared with the video cassette medium; so illegally downloading the film is the "only" means of acquiring it.
> 
> ...



My thoughts on this: If you're not selling it, don't complain when people try to watch it in other manners.


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## ArielMT (Jun 6, 2010)

DVD region limiting is absurd, but the DVD-CCA deliberately designed it into the standard for all the reasons that make it absurd.  "The Guyver" appears to be an example: offering a product to only one region that deliberately refuses to work in another region effectively shuns all your fans in that other region, and you leave them no other way to convince you that they want your product except to obtain it "illegally."

Regarding media piracy in general, the ethics can get murky and confusing very quickly.  While some cases are clearly unethical, such as publishing hacks that exploit server bugs allowing one to obtain currently for-sale games without being billed, other cases are either not as clearly unethical or not unethical at all.  One example is the PBS miniseries "Eyes on the Prize," documenting the civil rights movement of the '60s.  Because of expired copyright licenses used in production, the producers are barred from legally selling or airing their own production until all the works involved fall into the public domain (which is getting pushed further and further away with each new copyright law) or unless they pay a king's ransom to relicense those copyrights.  In that and similar cases, the illegal means of media piracy is the only means to obtain what was once legal.

Due to the state and current trends of copyright laws, which makes something as innocuous as building a home-made garage door opener a violation of copyright, an increasing number of ethical actions are becoming illegal if they're not illegal already.  When the flawed and overbearing robocop of DRM is involved (which proves more akin to the ED-209), illegally cracking the DRM or using Internet piracy becomes the only means available to exercise the right of fair use under copyright law, and those illegal means become the only means available to exercise the right of free use if/when DRM-protected works fall into the public domain.  I heard a quote, "DRM systems manage rights in the same way the prison system manages freedom."

And let's not forget a record industry who insist on suing their own paying customers, and who have at least twice issued DMCA takedowns to their own member artists.  One of those instances was takedowns of NIN's self-torrented album "Year Zero."  Or the MPAA who once wanted to sue a laser printer.

The simplistic views expressed by greedy corporations to ignorant lawmakers deliberately don't take into account the wide range of ethical issues involved with so-called media piracy.


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## ADF (Jun 6, 2010)

ArielMT said:


> "The Guyver" appears to be an example: offering a product to only one region that deliberately refuses to work in another region effectively shuns all your fans in that other region, and you leave them no other way to convince you that they want your product except to obtain it "illegally."



The thing is the film was originally being sold here on cassette, they just didn't release the DVD version here.

The point of transferring old films on to DVD, as it is with Blu-ray today, is to extend the films sales by releasing it on a higher quality medium. It makes no sense then to go through the effort of converting a VHS era film to DVD quality; and then only release it in one region.

They're re-releasing to extend sales; but then limiting the potential audience for no good reason.


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## net-cat (Jun 6, 2010)

If something is copyable and has no monetary value, I have no issues taking a copy of it.

If something is not for sale and is not going to be sold in the future, (whether as a service or as part of a product,) it has no monetary value.


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## Internet Police Chief (Jun 7, 2010)

Morroke said:


> You wouldn't download a car



Bullshit I wouldn't.


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## Carenath (Jun 7, 2010)

ArielMT said:


> DVD region limiting is absurd, but the DVD-CCA deliberately designed it into the standard for all the reasons that make it absurd.  "The Guyver" appears to be an example: offering a product to only one region that deliberately refuses to work in another region effectively shuns all your fans in that other region, and you leave them no other way to convince you that they want your product except to obtain it "illegally."


DVD Region coding made sense at the time, the intent (so claimed) was to protect ticket sales at the box office. This was because releases were staggered to save costs on film. They'd release the movie in the US, and a month or more later, the UK/Ireland release would follow, moving eastwards to other countries.
The system worked for what the studios wanted.. a way to charge higher prices over here, and stop us importing the US-release discs, so we'd all pony up and go to the cinema then buy the disc later at our inflated prices.
The system got broken badly and the MPAA used the DMCA and influence on US Government to get foreign nationals living in other countries arrested for releasing the enabling code (DeCSS). This, and the resulting copies of pirated content I believe is responsible for "worldwide releases" and less of a propensity for US discs to have additional content withheld from UK/Ireland discs.
The rise in popularity of multi-region DVD players.. and people using their computer for watching movies made the region system moot.

I suspect however, contractual agreements with local distributors prevents studios from opting out of region-coding new releases as the cheaper US imports would undercut local retail sales. I know people do this anyway, because I'm one of these people, but the studios won't paint targets on their asses if they can help it.



ArielMT said:


> Due to the state and current trends of copyright laws, which makes something as innocuous as building a home-made garage door opener a violation of copyright, an increasing number of ethical actions are becoming illegal if they're not illegal already.  When the flawed and overbearing robocop of DRM is involved (which proves more akin to the ED-209), illegally cracking the DRM or using Internet piracy becomes the only means available to exercise the right of fair use under copyright law, and those illegal means become the only means available to exercise the right of free use if/when DRM-protected works fall into the public domain.  I heard a quote, "DRM systems manage rights in the same way the prison system manages freedom."


I have less of a problem with DRM in principle, than I have with the DMCA, and the WIPO. DRM has it's uses in the right areas, however, I have a bug up my ass when it comes to DRM (and the DMCA) being abused to block competition and fair use, when it's abused for profiteering and when it's more of an inconvenience to the end-user than a benefit. Consumers have rights too, and DRM in it's current form kills those off because for some reason companies think they have a *right* to earn profit when they never had and put that above striking a fair balance.

A big share of the blame.. lies on the enablers, not just the studios.
Microsoft developed their own DRM system, and embedded it in Vista and 7, claiming the studios demanded they do. Microsoft is big enough, with a big enough market share, that they could have said no.
There's Macrovision, which makes it's bread and butter on brutal and obnoxious DRM systems which do more to piss off consumers than combat piracy.
There's the BluRay consortium. When HD-DVD and BluRay were being pushed, HD-DVD was completely Region-Free, with no provision to add it into the standard making it very friendly to us whom without there is no industry.
BluRay added Region Coding, and, they did simplify things, but, they basically gave Europeans a big fuck you by including Japan and a bunch of the countries where the BluRay players were being made, in with the US and Canada, while again putting Europe by itself. This pissed me off.. not just because I live in Europe and I buy discs from the US (because they're cheaper and often come with stuff excluded from our release, duh) but because it's enabling artificial price inflation.
There's the DMCA which actually made it illegal to import or own a VCR that did not have an Automatic Gain Control circuit (which made it vulnerable to the Macrovision system).

It's been said before that the studios, if given the option of heavy-handed DRM, use the heaviest of hands, and in the absense of DRM will reluctantly release the content anyway because in the end, they want money and we want the content.


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## Point_Blank (Jun 10, 2010)

Morroke said:


> You wouldn't download a car


 
Why the fuck not


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## Dan. (Jun 10, 2010)

Is it all right if you lose the disk, and then torrent for free? They still had their money at the end of the day didn't they? Because in that kind of case I think downloading it would be acceptable. In your case there is nothing wrong with that either, if there is no other way of obtaining the film without spending more money than you should then go for it I say!


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## Runefox (Jun 10, 2010)

@Dan: Yeah, that's pretty much within reason, especially if you still have the game's (or software's) CD key. While software publishers would have you believe that you've bought a product like usual and need to replace it if it breaks, they also like to think they have it both ways and call it a license.


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## TashkentFox (Jun 10, 2010)

Argh Jim lad, wanna buy some o' me pirated Patrick Troughton videos?


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## Muckwuddly (Jun 10, 2010)

I try before buy, always. :V

Seriously, how would I know if a game is good and worth supporting, if I can't play it? (Don't get me started on demos, they suck.)

Movies are trickier, since you don't know if you haven't seen it, and when you have seen it, well, what's the point then?
But, you can always buy the DVD for all the extra material!

Music... Well, artists who don't support piracy can gtfo, seriously.
As a musician and saying "I don't want people to listen to my music." is just dumb.
Yes, ofc you want to make money, but make good music and you will get money, it's not that hard of an equation.

As an end note, I'd like to point out that I actually DO buy shit.
Well, at least things I like to support.

:3


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