# Trolling in the Furry Community



## I_Own_Charles (Oct 20, 2006)

So, for my Library and Information Science class (LIS390, 'Computers and Culture'), I wanted to do my final paper on trolling and trolls in the furry community.

Needless to say, I have a lot of experience in this.

But if you have anything to contribute, thoughts, examples, etc. it'd be much appreciated.

What I'm looking for, is what qualities exist in the furry community that causes them to be a target for trolls? Furries have existed long before computers/Internet; how has technology effected how information about furries and their particular sub-culture spreads, and how does technology effect how furries become targeted by trolls?

The above questions are mostly my own prompts for my paper, but if they help you to think of anything, cool. Otherwise any and all thoughts are welcome!


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## Aikon (Oct 20, 2006)

By trolls I'm assuming you mean guys like the POE and that encyclopedia dramatica, right?  

Those are amusing folks actually.  They're not your everyday Joes, it appears to me they consist of people that are trying to justify their own social problems (whatever it might be) by bashing another group.  Furries tend to be flavor of the year though.  

I dunno, I have to be honest I turn my cheek to this stuff now... I used to stick my nose in places it shouldn't be but it gets redundant after awhile. 

Good luck with your paper.


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## I_Own_Charles (Oct 20, 2006)

Yeah, "trolls" is pretty vague. In fact it's meaning is changing from someone fairly smart who plans to lead others astray for the amusement of pissing them off into someone who's a complete moron and leads others astray by going off-topic out of his/her own idiocy. I like the first definition of troll, and I like people who fulfill that definition.

I've noticed whenever furried are bashed, they always get called animal fuckers or fur-suiters, or general perverts. So I guess it's the whole WAY underground sex-culture that sets the example for everyone in the furry community and that trolls hassle these people for.

I dunno, just throwing out some ideas. Thanks for the contrib.



Hey, my keyboard's working again!


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## verix (Oct 20, 2006)

Does it -have- to be the furry community? I mean jesus you're doing this in what appears to be a junior/senior level class. Why not broaden the horizons and show what trolling does to communities in general?


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## Wakboth (Oct 20, 2006)

I_Own_Charles said:
			
		

> What I'm looking for, is what qualities exist in the furry community that causes them to be a target for trolls?


I think one big reason is the "big tent" nature of the furry fandom; it includes such a broad spectrum of people, often with very divergent ideas of what "furry" is, exactly. 

This means that there is an ample amount of dysfunctional furry fans, who draw in mockery and disdain; however, due to the nature of the fandom, this (sometimes deserved) mockery tends to get applied to non-deserving parts of the fandom as well, which often leads to an overly defensive stance (claims of "fursecution" and general thin-skinnedness) and "closing of ranks", whereby the dysfunctional elements get a free pass from criticism because "they are furry, too". 

And this, of course, just feeds the cycle of drama.


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## Hanazawa (Oct 20, 2006)

I can totally ramble a lot on this topic if you can ask some more specific questions.


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## dave hyena (Oct 20, 2006)

The life & death of Socrates is of relevance here I think, get socrates in and the teacher will go "wow, just wow!":

"Socrates's elenctic examination was resented by influential figures of his day, whose reputations for wisdom and virtue were debunked by his questions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates

"The Greek achievement" by charles freeman if there is a copy of that in your library or whatnot has more about his impace.


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## DarkMeW (Oct 20, 2006)

I've seen some trolls here and there in the furry communities. One of the things that seems to be common in a lot of the 'troll' no matter where you see them is their defense. They often take the guise of telling the truth, or it being their freedom of speech. Often they use this defense after slandering people with vulgar insults as much as they can. It's ridiculous defense but it seems to be the common fall back position.


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 20, 2006)

Because there is a distinct lack of bridges in the furry community. Obviously we have destroyed the trolls natural habitats and now they are moving into our turf and struggling to avoid extinction.


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## ArrowTibbs (Oct 20, 2006)

Trolling can also be seen in "pack" behavior. Person #1 is offended, writes a journal, and fans (or freinds) go to tell person #2 off. This might be more along the lines of flaming, depending on how person #2 is being treated, but it's hard to define really.


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## Evol (Oct 20, 2006)

I agree with verix, but if you want to specialize the topic even more, here's my insight:

The furry community is extremely vulnerable to trolling, not just because of what they are, but because a lot of those individuals don't have senses of humors, take things and themselves way too seriously, and are easily offended (though they claim not to be.)  That leaves them open targets, or sitting ducks if you will.


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## I_Own_Charles (Oct 20, 2006)

verix said:
			
		

> Does it -have- to be the furry community? I mean jesus you're doing this in what appears to be a junior/senior level class. Why not broaden the horizons and show what trolling does to communities in general?



Actually this is a college-level course, and a good research paper uses as narrow a topic as possible to avoid vagueness and over-extention. The course is called 'computers and culture' and one of the topics we discussed was subcultures on the internet, and furries, for example, fall into this category. Given how much time I spend on these boards and how much drama I've seen stemming from this fandom I thought it'd be a good topic, and something I could find a lot of research on. If I did a paper on trolling in general, I could probably turn out something that was at least 20 pages long, if not more, and the requirement is but a sparse 5-10 pages.



			
				TheLostWolf said:
			
		

> Because there is a distinct lack of bridges in the furry community. Obviously we have destroyed the trolls natural habitats and now they are moving into our turf and struggling to avoid extinction.



LOL


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## I_Own_Charles (Oct 20, 2006)

Hanazawa said:
			
		

> I can totally ramble a lot on this topic if you can ask some more specific questions.




To be honest, I'm still trying to organize my ideas on this topic myself (or I might end up with a whole new topic altogether). It's not due for a long time, but my proposal is due pretty soon. Maybe I was kinda hoping that from whatever vague things people said here I could focus in on a more distinct topic and work my way up again. :-/


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## coffeewolf (Oct 20, 2006)

I dont mind people insulting my fandom, as long as they give suggestions too. Its one thing to say you smell funny, and another to say you smell funny, taking a shower helps.


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## WelcomeTheCollapse (Oct 20, 2006)

Go start a furry thread on Fark.com. You'll get plenty of material.


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## emptyF (Oct 20, 2006)

hold on, let me break out the scholarly frog who uses capital letters.  *clears throat*


Trolling in the furry community speaks volumes about the maturity of the average fur and troll in my opinion.  

What is trolling, really, other than someone saying "I don't like you" and the other person becoming extremely upset about it?  In real life, not everyone will like you.  This is the essence of the problem really:  the furry community is not real life.  It is a highly developed interactive fantasy world where (most) everyone creates a character and then becomes that character.  In many cases, these characters are outlets of deeply repressed subconcious urges and feelings.  

If you were to approach the average fur on the street and engage them, they probably would be able to have a reasoned debate with you since we are not our fursona 24 hours a day.  When apporached by a troll in their natural habitat (the internet) two things happen:  a.) The person who attacks is protected by the anominimity of the internet experience and is prone to being much more vicious; and b.) the fur being attacked is also protected by the same anominimity.  What this anominimity means for a fur is that they can be more open about their fetishes and sexual kinks and they can fully become the character they have created.  It is a two edged sword inasmuch as when you have exposed yourself to the degree that the average fur has you can feel vulnerable and defenseless, so that when a troll attacks you you are all the more likely to react in an immature and childish manner.  

So, back to the question of maturity:  is the troll or the fur the immature party in these encounters?  I say yes.


and back to lowercase.  yr right, this is a fascinating subject.  i should write an essay about this . . .


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## Hanazawa (Oct 20, 2006)

I_Own_Charles said:
			
		

> To be honest, I'm still trying to organize my ideas on this topic myself (or I might end up with a whole new topic altogether). It's not due for a long time, but my proposal is due pretty soon. Maybe I was kinda hoping that from whatever vague things people said here I could focus in on a more distinct topic and work my way up again. :-/



Eh, I know how that goes. I'll try to contribute something after my classes are over today.


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## verix (Oct 20, 2006)

I_Own_Charles said:
			
		

> Actually this is a college-level course, and a good research paper uses as narrow a topic as possible to avoid vagueness and over-extention.


Ah, okay, that makes sense, then.

By the way, "junior/senior" _still_ applies to college. There's a world of difference between a 100-level class and a 400-level class. Believe me, I know. I took CS445 my _third quarter_ college. That was a pretty sobering experience, let me tell you.


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## WHPellic (Oct 20, 2006)

I wonder if age group has anything to do with furry drama, or any drama regardless.

I've noticed a lot of drama tends to revolve around the mid-teens to mid-twenties people. This age group also makes up a large portion of the fandom.


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## furryskibum (Oct 20, 2006)

Honestly I think gaming forums hold many more trolls than the fandom, but my scope of experience is pretty narrow.

But of the three furry forums I frequent on a regular basis, I've seen more trolling here than the other two forums.  Perhaps it's because other forums tend to cater to a specific sub-culture of the fandom, where there are many different personalities in this melting pot of artstuffs.  There will be many opinions, and people will invariable take offense to what another sees as innocent conversation.

Personally, I think most trolling stems from the lack of emotion we can put into text.  Sure we have the !!, the ??, the ?!?, capitalizations and other standard punctuation, but it's a poor substitute for real life conversation.  This medium of communication makes it easy to misunderstand what another is typing.  I think the emotion of the message is seen in HOW a message is typed.  All too often inexperienced forum-goers or computer users have very poor typing skills, and it can cloud the meaning of their message.

And then you've got people like me who simply can't put together the right words to get their message across half the time.    Okay, so that's more generalized crap.  But then you must look at the demographics of the furry fandom!  Shoot, most of the furs I've seen around are under the age of 25 and many of those are under 20 even.  I'm not trying to stereotype, but there's a certain measure of maturity that comes with age (and more specifically life experience).  I have known plenty of childish 30 year-olds and amazingly wise 17 year-olds, though, so there are always exceptions.

If you really want to generalize trolls, I guess you could say they just want attention for one reason or another.  I've also seen many perfectly social and helpful furs give into trolling as well.  It happens to the best of us.

How to nullify a troll:  ignore them.  They lose all effectiveness if one chooses to ignore a troll's bait and refuse to play their game.  Okay.  Enough rambling for me.  I need sleep.

edit:  I just noticed I pretty much just ignored the question and rambled on.  Sorry 'bout that.  XD  For what it's worth, I've met more awesome and pleasant furs in the fandom and through forums than I've ever met on gaming forums.  But in the end, it's all about who I choose to associate with.


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## Whirlaxis (Oct 21, 2006)

ok, heres my idea: people are, first and foremost, sheep; they tend to naturally follow the ideas of others around them to the point of blind stupidity. for example, several of my friends have a negative take on furries because of the YTMND forums and one racist person. having never had any education or exposure to anything related to the furry fandom except some pictures of vore that were posted on said forums, they immediately assume all furries to be shit eating freaks.

if directly confronted about somethign so obviously wrong with their nature, they will immediately try to prove themselves right. once again, human nature at its best/worst, securing ones own security for their status in society and self-esteem. this can lead to trolling, posting, and having an overall negative iimpact on furries everywere, and spreading this ignorant prejudice.

just look at slavery in america, white people never considered that blacks may be equal, that they may be something besides lesser beings, and it got to a point where enlightened people came to war with them. now obviously, this was not by any means a major cause of the civil war, but was still a factor, and resentment persists to this day that the south got its ass handed to them and was essentially embarassed in front of the enntire country.

human nature ties a lot into social standing, and the same kind of thing can even be seen in some types, if not all types, of monkeys. aa human being will go to ridiculous lengths to prove themselves right for personal pride and recognition among peers and elders, including including being openly racist and prejudice if it is accepted in society.

at least, thats my theory =P


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## Mr Cullen (Oct 21, 2006)

These days with some furs, trolling is as simple as telling them you don't partciulary like the same things they do, or disagreeing with their opinions.

Trolling furs was never a challenge in the first place, but sometimes I wished it was. It's all for lulz.


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## Evol (Oct 21, 2006)

Oh no.

Someone compared fursecution to slavery.

Doesn't Godwin's Law cover that?


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## Xenofur (Oct 21, 2006)

furry is NOT a community. there are several furry communities, but there exists no one singular thing that can be described as being both furry and community.


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## WelcomeTheCollapse (Oct 21, 2006)

Evol said:
			
		

> Oh no.
> 
> Someone compared fursecution to slavery.
> 
> Doesn't Godwin's Law cover that?



Maybe the thread would be Godwin'd if they compared fursecution to the Holocaust...


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 21, 2006)

OMFG!
Nazi anti-furs!
Seriously people... all we need to do is build some bridges and the trolls will go back to hiding under them.


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## uncia2000 (Oct 21, 2006)

Xenofur said:
			
		

> furry is NOT a community. there are several furry communities, but there exists no one singular thing that can be described as being both furry and community.



*chuckles*. Good point, Xeno'.

The FA "community" is not composed solely of "furs"; neither are all "furs" on FA. (Yet? ).
We're a diverse bunch, even if appealing to a unitary "community" does provide a strong feeling of self-support that many individuals seek.


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## Hanazawa (Oct 21, 2006)

Evol said:
			
		

> Oh no.
> 
> Someone compared fursecution to slavery.
> 
> Doesn't Godwin's Law cover that?



I think someone coined Tubman's Law for that.


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## DMKA (Oct 21, 2006)

TheLostWolf said:
			
		

> Seriously people... all we need to do is build some bridges and the trolls will go back to hiding under them.



The concept of said metophorical "bridges" seem to be completely absent to the majority of the furry "community", which is why furs get troll'd so often, and so easily.

Personally I hope it never changes. :3


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## Evol (Oct 22, 2006)

Hanazawa said:
			
		

> Evol said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hahahahahaha.  A+


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## nobuyuki (Oct 23, 2006)

So okay.  Have you explored these angles:

1. Breeding ground for social outcasts
2. Liberalized community treating acceptance over tolerance,  creating an atmosphere ripe for social invalids to join the pack
3. Oversensitivity issues exasperated by the media attention (ie:  picking a scab)
4. Escapist culture ("fursonas", roleplaying, obsession with cartoons and comic books are common themes to geekdom, but furry has it all and thensome all in one convenient group!)
5. did I mention a breeding ground for wacky liberals?  Seriously.  Anti-establishment for the sake of being anti-establishment types are typically looked down upon by organized society and unfortunately there's not a lot of surface redeeming value to the group in general to cancel out the ridicule.

6.  the fandom's ultimate goal is not nobly outlooking in any meaningful way.  At best it is benign ("I like think girls with cat ears and tails make cute mascots"), and at worst it can be downright gross ("I am one with my inner animal here, and people accept me for it.  Where else can I eat raw meat in the woods and become intimate with mother earth's creatures?").  Honestly?  Without a noble goal for the fandom there is nothing to counteract the creepy side of it in the minds of the public.  Wham.  Subject of ridicule.

7.  Bestiality.  The one thing no furry wants to talk about are the people in this community who are zoos or zoo sympathizers.  It's USUALLY don't ask, don't tell, but if someone starts to rock the boat and call out a seemingly "normal" or well-known individual in the fandom for being one of these, prepare to get attacked by the vultures.  The only delusion keeping some furs afloat is that "there might be zoos in this fandom, but they're rare and I don't know any of them".  Until you find out that they do, and they totally didn't want to know that.  Guilt by association is a logical fallacy, but one that both the mindless public fall for, and the typical furry fears.

8.  An almost neurotic social hierarchy that seems like a bad repeat of high school.  The ones who worked so hard to climb the ladder here want to make sure their positions are preserved, and of course if you rock the boat it shouldn't be surprising if the rumor mill goes into action against you.  It's almost freudian how the loop works, and while most "outsiders" don't know much about it, I get the feeling they can see the outer signs of it:  IE, a xenophobic community who distrusts any fringe element it can't control in its own little world.

9.  That brings up another point.  Xenophobia.  Did you know that the press aren't allowed at FC without a special escort?  It seems all super-friendly and inviting on their website, but to me it seems like awfully familiar -- oh, that's right.  That's basically how tours of North Korea work, too.  You get your own special escort to show you around.


More later?


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## uncia2000 (Oct 23, 2006)

_Nice_ list...

I'm surprised we've only got "trolls" off the back of that.


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 23, 2006)

nobuyuki said:
			
		

> 9.  That brings up another point.  Xenophobia.  Did you know that the press aren't allowed at FC without a special escort?  It seems all super-friendly and inviting on their website, but to me it seems like awfully familiar -- oh, that's right.  That's basically how tours of North Korea work, too.  You get your own special escort to show you around.



As a part time "member of the press" this bugs me... mainly because I've had a heated discussion as to what I will be allowed to shoot at FWA even though I will be there of my own violation and not on assignment. However this is mainly because my personal equipment (which I will be toting) is "professional grade". Of course it's perfectly okay to wander around with a digital point and shoot.

If a member of the press really wanted to and wasn't worried about a civil suite that's exactly what they would do. Bring a good digital compact or a rangefinder and that would be.. newspapers don't need ultra high quality images to make a story.


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## Evol (Oct 24, 2006)

I used to be an employee of a TV station, and so I had a press pass.  I went to MFM last year, put it on as part of my badges, and they freaked out and yelled at me about not telling them I was a member of the press (which I wasn't there for that purpose at all.)

Good times.


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## I_Own_Charles (Oct 24, 2006)

Thanks to everyone for their contributions! I'll be letter you all know more about the paper and replying to some of your thoughts later on.

Thanks again!


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## Kattywampus (Oct 24, 2006)

To the one that owns Charles:

You should look at alt.lifestyle.furry for quality trollness.
Actually, it's funny.. I love that troll on there that they call Snuhwolf.  But you can totally tell when he's gonna do the troll thing.  Which is why it's always funny when people get pissed off at him.  Sorry homesteaders that may be reading this, but it's true.  Lighten up.  Check out Snuh's article on Encyclopedia Dramatica.  Hell, just check ouot Encyclopedia Dramatica anyway.  It's like, the troll bible.
___________________

*applauds nobuyuki*  Excellent analysis.

And yeah, the press thing sucks.  I've been part of the media/communications industry off and on for years now.  Good thing no one noticed or cared.  Hehe.


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## Sylvine (Oct 24, 2006)

I_Own_Charles said:
			
		

> What I'm looking for, is what qualities exist in the furry community that causes them to be a target for trolls?




 Hey, at least that's _easy_. Reason is, we're not only totally fucked up - no, we're _obviously, evidently_ fucked up. 

 Seriously. I can perfectly understand why people outside of the fandom have an extraordinally easy time to laugh & spit at it. After all, I,myself being part of that very fandom, don't have a major problem with laughing at myself & other members often enough, and -too often,for my taste- have already stumbled upon stuff that almost made me throw up in disgust. So I can imagine how someone who thinks looking at furry animals having sex is a major quirk already would react to some of the hc yiff, or more quirky stuff. 
 And, let's face it - the fandom is *choke full* of Yiff, and what's infinatelly worse, full of badly drawn out Yiff. But don't take my word for it, do a Yahoo Image Search on the term "Furry". Wow, check that out - someone who just heard the definition and is curious will be welcomed with 2 yiff pics, and more are following! Oh, and should You have "safetySearch" off, You'll also get to see this "tasty" (=irony!) Picture ( WARNING, NOT work-safe [/duh!]). See? What is a normal, unbiased person supposed to think after seeing that?  Hell, even FA is full of it. All those "Furry Haters" sites don't even have to dig very deeply to get their material, huh?
 I once stumbled upon a "furry hater" website and read something like this: "Furries will often tell You: Hey, not ALL furries are such perverts, just part of the fandom! Well, that's true to a degree. Say, If You have a group of 10 people, of which 3 are sodomists, 3 are pedophiles, 3 are exhibitionists and one is a necrophile, You're perfectlyright when You say: Hey, They're not ALL having sex with corpses. Doesn't make things better"
 As overblown as it is, it actually hits the nail quite well. I think it's safe to assume that we all, or at least the majority of us, have some weird preferences and quirks. 

 BUT! That's not even the core of the problem. The real problem, as I see it, is that furries tend to be so... open about it. Surely, the Anonymity ( is that a word? Either way, You surely know what I'm talking about ) that the Internet provides does contribute to that attitude... the tolerance - and there IS a quite large quantity of tolerance around the fandom, at least in certain areas - surely does, too. Either way - and added whatever factors contribute to that fact in addition to those two -, the fandom is home not only to a lot of people with weird (sexual) preferences, but - OH NO!! - also of people who talk about that freely. 
 And that, in my opinion, is the actual problem. Not the quirkiness per se, mind You - EVERYONE has some, otherwise how could the porn industry survive? All those things You would in most cases neither do nor even talk about, You can at least look at them - and I have to yet encounter a person ( not a MALE person, mind You, but just a person ) who's never seen a porno in his or her life - be it out of curiosity or whatever the reason. Yet, again, those are things You just don't talk about in public. But for some reason - maybe because it's not people, but cute fuzzy animals doing it - this fundamental shame ceases to exist within the fandom, or at least grows smaller. One possible reason could be that members of the fandom always have a bit of a roleplayer inside, with the fursona stuff 'n all, so they have the ability to take a distance from their actions, supported by the internet anonymity (again,is that even a word..? well, it is now). But possibly not only this - after all, there are, as stated before, mo re than enough porn sites and sexchats for "normal" perverts on the 'net, and even in more general areas, sexual implications become more common every day. What is the problem, then? 

 Personally, I belive it's a matter of a fundamental human... property. Flaw, even. Namely: The tendency to divert attention from oneself.
 Let me elaborate. As stated before, I belive everyone has their little quirks and deviances, and that's quite normal, I'm afraid. (If You, dear reader ( ^_~ ) happen to have none, then either: Shame on You for lying to Yourself, or - honestly,no sarcasm or irony or such - Congratulations, You are to be envied). There is, however, a kind of shame that came with the first forms of education, form our social environment, that tells You: Bad Boy, You're a sick perv. Soo... to evade that personal shame, that voice of conscience, people tend to look for greater evils. The exhibitionist condemns the rapist, the rapist condemns the pedophile, all three spit on the necrophiles ( for some reason...a homosexual pedophile-necrophile would be probably the ultimate "burn him!"-combo...). And "furry" acts like a multiplier. Obviously, Yiff is much worse than porn, after all, it's ANIMALS, for christ's sake! And, and, homosexual Yiff is, like, EVEN WORSE! and so on, You get my drift. 
 Just why is furry worse than "normal"? *sigh* Do I really need to explain that? Probably not, but ohwell...first of all, sex was - and to a degree, still is, considered something "dirty" -but it's also human. Yiff is missing that human clause, so it's "just" dirty. Second, Yiff alway implicates sodomy to someone outside the fandom. ALWAYS. It just works that way. I know it's not very logical if You think about it, but... 't's the truth.  

 Soooooo, by trolling the furry community, a troll achieves three things: One - he focuses on the deviances of other people, forgetting his own. Two - he has a hellouva fun at it, since the fandom (given, sometimes understandably) is more often than not offended and reacts accordingly. Three - He gains a quantum self-esteem. I know, that's pitful, but true - everyone gains some when bashing on the other.

 Hmm.. possibly I wanted to add something more,but my girlfriend is back now and I totally lost the concept =) [ in a very non-sexual way at the moment, by the way,thank You _very_ much *rolleyes*]. 

Beg Your pardon...

~Sylv


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## Hyenaworks (Oct 24, 2006)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> The life & death of Socrates is of relevance here I think, get socrates in and the teacher will go "wow, just wow!":
> 
> "Socrates's elenctic examination was resented by influential figures of his day, whose reputations for wisdom and virtue were debunked by his questions."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates



Uhm... Socrates being killed because he was considered to be a threat to the State and well being of the community has nothing to do with Internet trolling...
"The Greek achievement" by charles freeman if there is a copy of that in your library or whatnot has more about his impace.


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## nobuyuki (Oct 24, 2006)

Kattywampus said:
			
		

> *applauds nobuyuki*  Excellent analysis.



thanks dudester XD


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 24, 2006)

When you get down to it has everything to do with deviance...
I don't want to go ranting so look at deviance and it's purpose from a sociological prospective and you will find your answers.


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## dave hyena (Oct 24, 2006)

Hyenaworks said:
			
		

> Uhm... Socrates being killed because he was considered to be a threat to the State and well being of the community has nothing to do with Internet trolling...



People can be banned from internet sites and/or labeled as trolls precisly because they are thought to be threats to the community.

Socrates was killed for corrupting the youth of the city.

He was making people question the values, laws, morals et al of the existing social structure. He questioned the very concept of democracy and influenced other people, thus presenting a threat to the current ruling classes.

It is possible that people may get banned from some internet communities for doing like things (see Y! galleries for an example)


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## Hanazawa (Oct 24, 2006)

That's an interesting point, Dave.

On the other hand, my definition of "troll" *doesn't include* people who raise *legitimate concerns* about some group or system for any reason thay may be deemed altruistic (such as encouraging others to think for themselves or see some kind of universal problem at work), regardless of how they go about doing it (save hacking, which then is HACKING and not trolling). To me, a troll is a person who goes about seeking attention for themselves (often in a disruptive manner) and any complaints or changes they talk about are purely self-interested and without regard for anyone else.

The distinction is probably hard to make because anyone can lie about their motivations, but I think an individual who acts frequently enough will eventually be blasting their true colors loud and clear through actions rather than words.

I don't think Socrates was a troll, but I can understand how the people threatened by him might have thought he was. (you know, hypothetically/figuratively speaking)


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## uncia2000 (Oct 24, 2006)

Hanazawa said:
			
		

> On the other hand, my definition of "troll" *doesn't include* people who raise *legitimate concerns*....



Could have had an entire essay on what exactly people define that word "troll" to mean, in the first place....


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## dave hyena (Oct 25, 2006)

Hanazawa said:
			
		

> I don't think Socrates was a troll, but I can understand how the people threatened by him might have thought he was. (you know, hypothetically/figuratively speaking)



Now I think about it, Socrates was _brought on trial_ for corrupting the youth of the city. But the main reason he was _sentenced to death_ was because instead of apologising and recanting or the like, which would have probably got him only exile, he declared that what he was doing was a positive benefit to the city. He said further that they should give him a big pile of money for being so wonderful. This was all so undiplomatic that he got the hemlock treatment.

Alledgedly he even rejected the oppurtunity to escape, instead being stubborn (or sticking to his principles) and dying.

Socrates wasn't really a troll, but threats to rulership are mostly dealt with most harshly.

That would make a fine essay I think, how the patterns of human behavior in regard to holding, maintaining,seizeing and defending powers of rulership have pretty much stayed the same in content, differing only in form.

"by these means has many a wise prince extended his estate".


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## Emerson (Oct 25, 2006)

I think the broadest, yet accurate, definition of a troll is someone who attacks an individual or community soley for the sake of getting a reaction, either from their own friends or from the targets themselves.

That said, furries tend to be an emotional, unstable, and diverse group (that includes me), and so when a good troll gets going, its easy for the fandom to get worked up over it.

You are NOT a troll if you hold an opinion different from the majority and you repeatedly make your opinion known; you are, at worst, a chronic complainer.


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## GuitarSolo (Oct 25, 2006)

They are just so jealous of our existince thats all. People (and trolls) despise what they cannot get. But I still don't know why they would go through all the effort to get in to just flame at us.


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## Hanazawa (Oct 25, 2006)

GuitarSolo said:
			
		

> They are just so jealous of our existince thats all. People (and trolls) despise what they cannot get. But I still don't know why they would go through all the effort to get in to just flame at us.



...I lol'd


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## Sylvine (Oct 25, 2006)

Hanazawa said:
			
		

> GuitarSolo said:
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I didn't, but I definately shook my head at that =)

GuitarSolo, by Your definition, I'd be a wannabe child rapist, hip-hopper, and nazi, to name a few.  

Just... no.

~Sylv


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## Dragoneer (Oct 25, 2006)

I can be one hell of a troll at times, mainly because I don't put up with stupidity. I am not afraid to call people out, as I have done in the past.

What sets me off? People who buy into their own celebrity, especially in this lil' fandom. That, and people who force their fetishes on others. Sometimes, yeah... they really do just belong behind closed doors.


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 25, 2006)

I won't go as far as calling myself a troll.. but I can be a major asshole.. from time to time... 
Which I think is what Dragoneer is saying about himself.


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## GuitarSolo (Oct 25, 2006)

Sylvine said:
			
		

> Hanazawa said:
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Aww come on, it wasn't that bad! You know that some people just wanna get at certain types for just because..... but I suppose my definition was a littllleee... I don't know. Could YOU be more specific?


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## Dragoneer (Oct 25, 2006)

TheLostWolf said:
			
		

> Which I think is what Dragoneer is saying about himself.


I'm a glorious asshole. =)


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## sasaki (Oct 25, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> I can be one hell of a troll at times, mainly because I don't put up with stupidity.



Thats not being a troll. Being a troll is a Full-Time-Job (with overtime).


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## insanityJ (Oct 25, 2006)

yes in which you must hide under a bridge and scare goats


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 25, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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As long as you can laugh about it, Am I right?
:wink:


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## nobuyuki (Oct 25, 2006)

a troll wakes up every morning to a big bowl of quaker goats


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## WHPellic (Oct 26, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

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Would that make you a glory hole?


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## Dragoneer (Oct 26, 2006)

WHPellic said:
			
		

> Dragoneer said:
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IT'S A TRAP!


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## Icarus (Oct 26, 2006)

I have just the thing!
Use this when needed.  
Rule #1

*snicker*
made it meself.


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## TheLostWolf (Oct 26, 2006)

*shrug*
I know some people who would start trolling just to be punished..
:shocked:
Need to add "with no lube."
:twisted:


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## Icarus (Oct 28, 2006)

-.=.-
Rule #A...i mean #1

happy?
:twisted:


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## Hyenaworks (Oct 28, 2006)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> Hyenaworks said:
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He didn't question democracy.  Read the actual trial, primary source, not someone's interpretation.  He was executed because he was saying you didn't need the gods and that you could do things for yourself not for your state.  To the Greeks, everything was about the state.  "Being a good citizen" was a greek's highest duty.  They believed Socrates was condemning them by disrupting the structure.  It wasn't just "corrupting the youth".  If you didn't do your duties as a citizen, you lost the protection of your god.  That is why he was considered a mortal danger to the State and EXECUTED.

Trolls are banned because they deliberately attempt to start problems for the sake of starting problems.  It's apples and oranges and very pretentious, if not emo, to compare the banning of trolls from forums to the execution of a philosopher.


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## Hyenaworks (Oct 28, 2006)

Dragoneer said:
			
		

> WHPellic said:
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YTMND, gotta love it.


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## Hyenaworks (Oct 28, 2006)

My advice to you is to do your own research and write your own paper.  Good luck with that. ^^


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## dave hyena (Oct 28, 2006)

Hyenaworks said:
			
		

> He didn't question democracy.Â
> ...
> Read the actual trial, primary source, not someone's interpretation.Â



I can't read greek, so I can't read the primary source. Only peoples interpration (translation) of it thus.

We only know socrates beliefs through plato, but given that scorates openly admired the constitution of sparta and took no part in the assembly or courts, And of course IIRC, he criticised the incident where the sucessful generals were executed for failing to pick up some wrecked sailors and people who tried to defend them were told that they would share their fate. All of that whippped up by a demogogue who was himself later exiled IIRC.

So I think it's really pushing it to say he never criticised democracy.

On the other hand, he did also passively resist the goverment of 30, but I think that's only because he belived in a goverment by philosophers (i.e people exactly like him).




> Trolls are banned because they deliberately attempt to start problems for the sake of starting problems.Â Â It's apples and oranges and very pretentious, if not emo, to compare the banning of trolls from forums to the execution of a philosopher.



People can be labelled as trolls because they ask differcult questions of the "great and the good" and even banned thereof. It's a repeat in miniture of what can happen elsewhere in human society on larger scales.

My point is that the same patterns of human behavior are common through time and place.


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