# How long do you wait?



## The-Kit (Aug 29, 2013)

Three weeks ago (August 7th) we sent a payment, commissioning an artist for work of our character. We sent the payment because a sketch was provided.

However since then the artist has not responded to us either over FA or Skype at all in spite of having been online numerous times.

This seems to be an intentional avoidance, however they did provide a sketch, so we're unsure..


We told them..

"[7:17:31 AM] Kit Angela: It's been twenty days since our payment, we really don't understand why you're not communicating with us at all, but it's not very good for business.. and honestly it's making us nervous.. if you don't respond soon, we may have to take action."

We're unsure what to do? On one hand, they may have a really good reason and they might suddenly tell us.. on the other.. we've been scammed before by people who took our money and ran and we're unclear as to what we should do or how we should handle this.. we understand the artists have lives too, but over two weeks without communication? It seems that being clearly online, they should have at least said -something- to us?


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## Ansitru (Aug 29, 2013)

Personally, I would send them another note stating that you want the art done by a (reasonable) deadline.

Also keep an eye on the date until which you can file a paypal-dispute for work not completed should the artist continue to ignore your attempts at communication.
Added onto that, you can always send in a submission to artists_beware if necessary.

That being said, the amount of time needed for a piece can differ per artist. Did you commission a huge full-body, full-colour piece?
In that case, 20 days is not _that_ excessive. If you commissioned, say, an icon, though ... chances are you'll have to keep trying to contact the artist and think about filing a dispute and a beware.


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## The-Kit (Aug 29, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> Personally, I would send them another note stating that you want the art done by a (reasonable) deadline.
> 
> Also keep an eye on the date until which you can file a paypal-dispute for work not completed should the artist continue to ignore your attempts at communication.
> Added onto that, you can always send in a submission to artists_beware if necessary.
> ...



Coloured sketch.

Well, we've sent two notes already via FurAffinity and a shout on their wall. We're really trying not to be unreasonable or rude, but the lack of any sort of communication has to make you wonder. You know? They've been online, we've seen them.. but they haven't responded or said -anything-, so it makes us very.. uneasy..


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## Ansitru (Aug 29, 2013)

Hrm.. A coloured sketch shouldn't take almost a month to complete, unless they had several pieces in a queue before yours.
I'm not going to ask for the artist's name, but rather: check the Artists_Beware-community and see if the artist you commissioned is in their tag-system.

You can also submit a post without naming them to ask for advice on how to handle the situation, as they give some pretty sound advice when needed.


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## The-Kit (Aug 29, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> Hrm.. A coloured sketch shouldn't take almost a month to complete, unless they had several pieces in a queue before yours.
> I'm not going to ask for the artist's name, but rather: check the Artists_Beware-community and see if the artist you commissioned is in their tag-system.
> 
> You can also submit a post without naming them to ask for advice on how to handle the situation, as they give some pretty sound advice when needed.



Not in their tags list.. but.. ehhhm, we don't know! We're trying not to be a total b@#ch about this, but still.. you know? Three weeks without a word, they've been online, we've -seen them- online and sent them numerous messages over Skype as well as FurAffinity and not a single word spoken in response? No, 'hey, I've been busy, sorry I haven't gotten your commission done yet', just what seems to be intentional avoidance/ignoring?

..That's very suspicious..


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 29, 2013)

Send a note that is titled "Refund: Urgent"

Put in that note, 

Dear X
If note is not responded to in X amount of days I will have my money refunded trough Paypal due to lack of follow through on a commission. We apologize if this seems drastic but I have tried to contact you multiple times. I did expect a response as professional courtesy. Due to lack of response in this matter it points to further communication breakdown which isn't promising for a healthy client relationship. I have tried to be civil about the matter and I am a paying customer. 

Your urgent response in this matter will be greatly appreciated"


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## inuraichi (Aug 30, 2013)

Send me the sketch and I'll colour it for ya for free


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## Kalmor (Aug 30, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> Send me the sketch and I'll colour it for ya for free


Not without the original artist's permission, no matter how unprofessional they are.


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## LittlePan (Aug 30, 2013)

It seems strange that the artist would provide a sketch and now be so unprofessional, but do keep pestering. I have had similar situations with other artists and it can be troubling and upsetting. If they do not respond, do take action however you feel you should. It's not acceptable for an artist to use your trust - and money - this way.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 30, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> Send me the sketch and I'll colour it for ya for free



This is not a good idea nor legal one since the artist still owns the copyright. Please make sure you help clients and artists with their issues and not make them worse.


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## mapdark (Aug 30, 2013)

The-Kit said:


> Three weeks ago (August 7th) we sent a payment, commissioning an artist for work of our character. We sent the payment because a sketch was provided.




NEVER EVER EVER pay for artwork before it is actually finished.
And if the artist doesn't have the decency to AT LEAST give you an update when asked for one , you should ask for a refund.


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## Ansitru (Aug 30, 2013)

mapdark said:


> NEVER EVER EVER pay for artwork before it is actually finished.
> And if the artist doesn't have the decency to AT LEAST give you an update when asked for one , you should ask for a refund.



Excuse you. "Pay in advance' is what most artists work with, to avoid being screwed over by not-so-kosher commissioners. (This does *not* apply to the OP of this thread, mind.)

While a commissioner scammed out of money can obtain a refund via the Paypal dispute-system by proving they never got what they paid for, an unpaid artist can not "force" someone to pay for the art via a similar, easily accessible system. So as it stands, "_Pay in advance_" is a pretty reasonable thing to ask for, in my opinion.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 30, 2013)

mapdark said:


> NEVER EVER EVER pay for artwork before it is actually finished.
> And if the artist doesn't have the decency to AT LEAST give you an update when asked for one , you should ask for a refund.



No, pay in advance is fine. The other way around is doing work for free. Least with a company you can get a contract not so much in personal commissions like on FA.


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## inuraichi (Aug 30, 2013)

how is it illegal? She PAYED for the sketch, she can let others and herself do with it whatever she wants. That's why it's called commission, you pay someone so that you can have it and do with it what you want.


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## Kalmor (Aug 30, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> how is it illegal? She PAYED for the sketch, she can let others and herself do with it whatever she wants. That's why it's called commission, you pay someone so that you can have it and do with it what you want.


Only if the artist handed rights over, which is unlikely (and much more expensive).


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## Willow (Aug 30, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> how is it illegal? She PAYED for the sketch, she can let others and herself do with it whatever she wants. That's why it's called commission, you pay someone so that you can have it and do with it what you want.


The person who draws it still technically has the rights to the actual picture they drew.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 30, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> how is it illegal? She PAYED for the sketch, she can let others and herself do with it whatever she wants. That's why it's called commission, you pay someone so that you can have it and do with it what you want.



It's called copyright. Unless you do a work for hire where you transfer copyright over to the commissioner the copyright stays with the creator of the work. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire

The commissioner only paid for the rights to create the work, not ownership of said work. You need to learn about copyright laws and what terms and conditions are fine before making such assumptions.

A registered copyright actually costs in the US about $45 dollars, and ownership is going to be defaulted to the actual creator of said work. 

The whole system was actually intended so that creators can have their own little monopolies on their work. 

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf


> Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created
> in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship
> immediately becomes the property of the author who created
> the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights
> through the author can rightfully claim copyright.



And before you go "but they said commissioned work qualifies as Work For Hire"



> if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument
> signed by them that the work shall be considered a work
> made for hire.



Example below



> Can I register a diary I found in my grandmother's attic?
> You can register copyright in the diary* only if you own the rights to the work,* for example, by will or by inheritance. Copyright is the right of the author of the work or the author's heirs or assignees, *not of the one who only owns or possesses the physical work itself.* See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section â€œWho Can Claim Copyright.â€


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## inuraichi (Aug 31, 2013)

Jesus O_O whenever I do a commission I just hand over the copyright >.>; don't see why I would have to get my panties in a bunch over someone colouring my art or anything of the sort. 

But law is law, apparently o_o;;;


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## Ansitru (Aug 31, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> Jesus O_O whenever I do a commission I just hand over the copyright >.>; don't see why I would have to get my panties in a bunch over someone colouring my art or anything of the sort.
> 
> But law is law, apparently o_o;;;



If you hand over the copyright, a commissioner could technically print the commissioned image on t-shirts, sell those for profit and there'd be nothing you can do about it.
This is why if someone wants the copyright to an image, they usually have to pay a *very* hefty sum to the artist.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 31, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> Jesus O_O whenever I do a commission I just hand over the copyright >.>; don't see why I would have to get my panties in a bunch over someone colouring my art or anything of the sort.
> 
> But law is law, apparently o_o;;;



That's just dumb. You can just tell the person "you can use it for personal use and if you want someone else to color it you have my permission" Otherwise giving away your copyright is just giving free money to people who didn't create it.

People act like asking is a difficult thing. Didn't they already ask you to do the commission?


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## inuraichi (Aug 31, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> If you hand over the copyright, a commissioner could technically print the commissioned image on t-shirts, sell those for profit and there'd be nothing you can do about it.
> This is why if someone wants the copyright to an image, they usually have to pay a *very* hefty sum to the artist.



Ah, i didnt think about that. Thats a very valid point... ill be more carefull in the future about my commissions!


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## The-Kit (Sep 2, 2013)

*sigh* Well we can't get the money back because being a big idiot, we sent it as a gift to be nice to the artist rather than as a payment for services, so yeah.. but they still haven't responded to -any- of our messages.  We just don't know what to do.. this really pisses us off, we seem to have been cheated due to being trusting and friendly..


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## Zenia (Sep 2, 2013)

The-Kit said:


> *sigh* Well we can't get the money back because being a big idiot, we sent it as a gift to be nice to the artist rather than as a payment for services, so yeah.


Well, I hope you've learned your lesson on that. Never send it s a gift. Paying fees is the artists burden and they should factor it in to their prices to start with.

If you want to pay them to be nice, then that is fine... but add it to the field that you enter the price in and still choose "goods/services". If you need help: http://paypalfeecalculator.paymentprocessing.cc/ <-- Use that.  For example, the artist wants $10 for a picture. Enter that into the section at the bottom right and hit 'calculate'. It then says that you need to give $10.61 so that after fees, the artist gets to keep a whole $10.

But now, you should gather up all your evidence (screenshots) and post this artist to http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/ be sure to read the community rules and stuff first.


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## The-Kit (Sep 3, 2013)

About to file a complaint, yeah.

We told them in the last message;

"Okay.. It's been over three weeks, obviously you've screwed us over. You've not responded to a single message in so long, you've not given any indication of excuse or reason and you've pointedly seemed to avoid us.

We're filing a complaint against you on ArtistBeware and informing the Community. Clearly we're not getting a refund, but we're also not standing idle-by while someone steals from us and then runs off without doing what they were paid for.

Bad form.

We're giving you two days more to respond. If you haven't responded in two days time, we're filing the complaint and being done with it. You brought this on yourself."

We are giving them two more days to respond in some way to be fair. Then if not. Forget it. We're tired of being nice to someone who appears to have definitely robbed us.


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## mapdark (Sep 3, 2013)

inuraichi said:


> Jesus O_O whenever I do a commission I just hand over the copyright >.>; don't see why I would have to get my panties in a bunch over someone colouring my art or anything of the sort.
> 
> But law is law, apparently o_o;;;



Because , let's say you do a small contract for someone . Something that is not technically supposed to get any exposure. 

Now let's say that this person decides to use your art and mass-publish in some shape or form and makes PROFIT over YOUR art. Would you be happy? I would bet that you wouldn't . 

This is why the original artist retains rights over their work . Otherwise anybody could swipe your designs for any unrelated project , not give you credit and make money off of your work without giving you one cent of the profits.


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## mapdark (Sep 3, 2013)

The-Kit said:


> About to file a complaint, yeah.
> 
> We told them in the last message;
> 
> ...



I think it's the only thing you can do. 
That's the problem with art jobs. There are limited means of justice if one of the parties is getting screwed over.
In your case , I think reporting the artist and letting it be known that they don't honor contracts is the only thing you can do.


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## mapdark (Sep 3, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> Excuse you. "Pay in advance' is what most artists work with, to avoid being screwed over by not-so-kosher commissioners. (This does *not* apply to the OP of this thread, mind.)
> 
> While a commissioner scammed out of money can obtain a refund via the Paypal dispute-system by proving they never got what they paid for, an unpaid artist can not "force" someone to pay for the art via a similar, easily accessible system. So as it stands, "_Pay in advance_" is a pretty reasonable thing to ask for, in my opinion.



Now that you say it , yeah , I guess you're right.


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## FireFeathers (Sep 10, 2013)

mapdark said:


> NEVER EVER EVER pay for artwork before it is actually finished.
> And if the artist doesn't have the decency to AT LEAST give you an update when asked for one , you should ask for a refund.



Controversially, never do art without getting paid first, because you're likely to get stiffed. Just do half up front, half with return if they haven't had much exposure or any reputation to stake.  I've worked my fingers to the bone on the "I take payment when i've completed the work"  status long enough that I've got people to refer to when saying that I get work done, EVEN when i've been paid beforehand. Because i'm not a scrub. 


2 weeks no contact is annoying, but your passive-aggressive pedantic tone you've posted from the conversation would make me sit on my hands in finishing a picture too. You've now taken the role of Mom in this artist- commissioner relationship.  "Arrrrtisssst, clean your roooooom! Arrrrtiissst, were's my commiiiiisssiionnnnnn."  Shit happens- and spazzing after just a month, when you don't know what's going on  and just assuming things.... bad form, maaaaaaan.


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## NerdyMunk (Sep 10, 2013)

Usually waiting for a year with no reply from the other side is beyond ridiculous.


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