# Have any artsits ever dealt with a commissioner who...



## thesilvermist (Oct 11, 2018)

I'm not a mean or hard- to-talk-to person, I try to communicate well with anyone that contacts me but sometimes....
Have any other artists dealt with potential commissioners who just can't communicate what they want?  I'm not talking about language barriers.. I'm talking about someone who *speaks the same first learned language* *as you* *but its still like extracting teeth to get info*.  
What do you do when this happens? How do you prevent/avoid such situations?

Here's a simplified example
C=commisioner, A=artsit

C:  want color
A:  Ok, can you tell me what color? Shape? Other details?
C: want blue
A: Ok blue what?
C: blue square-type-thing, and text
A: Ok what text? Costs is $XX *Sends invoice*
A: Did you mean a square or a diamond?
C:  actually want like your green triangles
A: *Does not have green triangles example* Do you mean my my orange and purple circle and oval, or my yellow diamond and square?
C: yeh that one *means 2nd option*
A: Ok that costs $ZZ *Cancels invoice, sends new one with new final cost* Please also send text you want added
A: Just to clarify you want light green diamond and square? And I need that text info
C: yeh but more on square
A:  (Read that to mean more lighter on square than diamond) Still need the text info
C: *gives text info*
A: *Does art/adds text and send it*
C: why didn't u WIPS! square should be darker than regular green, and the diamond should be wider.
A: *Offers WIPS if asked (before work is already done), but was not asked for WIPs* ... *face palm* *makes changes they can without re-drawing/re-coloring and offers 'WIP' of changes* This is what I can do. If you want more changes it will cost extra.  You did not ask for WIPs when you ordered/after paying.

I've doneseveral commissions with people who don't speak my native language, and not had an issue- they let me know their English is not good.  I keep phrases simple and clear, or even use a google translator to accommodate. 

I don't half ass information gathering from commissioners but I'm not a psychic, if they leave out crucial details I can't know they wanted *that* not *this*.  I'm tempted to force a detailed forum to be filled out for commissioners and refuse any that aren't done properly to avoid this in the future.

If this somehow offends someone its not meant to point at anyone in particular, but if you don't want to commission me because of this post, that's fine.  
I just wanted to share this.  See if any otehr artist have dealt with it and what they do.


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## pippi (Oct 11, 2018)

You really should send WIP to avoid this kind of thing


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## psychonautic (Oct 11, 2018)

What pippi said, its standard practice to send wips. The commissioner is still at fault for not reading tho
Also you should wait until all the details are set before sending an invoice, saves frustration


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## fralea (Oct 11, 2018)

Is this over instant messenger? Emails make it more likely for people to write out complete thoughts and think through what they want (though  not always). You could also try giving clients a form to fill out with specific spaces for all the details you need to get started, though that may not be possible for some types of work.


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## MissNook (Oct 12, 2018)

Yep I had the exact same issue (with a request though). I tried to talk to the guy afterwards to understand what went wrong. He said that he hadn't really put thoughts on it because he thought the idea was cool but he didn't think about how it would look like. I guess sometimes you just have to say "do some thinking, try to find what you really want and then say it to me, I can't guess" (that's what I said to him in fact XD). If you have to do the thinking for him, I think it's better to be straightforward. 

Oh and another guy answered to me "I don't know, I'm not the artist, that's your job!" before I remind him that I'm not some kind of seer and he apologized for his behavior and did some thinking before asking me again.

And I agree with fralea, when talking with instant messages, I had issue to find what people wants more than with mail.
I also think that for this kind of case, you should be the one to send a sketch or a WIP seeing that the commissioner isn't clear with what he wants.


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## zenmaldita (Oct 12, 2018)

you gotta WIP it :I
it's standard procedure.
some people are just *not *blessed with the ability to describe things in their head. they're better off seeing things and confirming.
I know we're not meant to be psychic seers - but sketch your best guesses and let them have a look at it. It's troublesome but they'll appreciate it.


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## Albinistic (Oct 12, 2018)

This is why I've started to flat out deny commissions that I can't understand, or people who can't communicate. I also don't send WIPs, even if asked, mostly because I am usually being paid too little (current highest I can sell my art is $5) to deal with the hassle of checking WIPs and such, especially from people who aren't clear abot what they want.


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## BunBunArt (Oct 12, 2018)

Wips wips wips! and talk to them like children... :')
I always send lots of sketches and once I'm sure they like the final sketch I continue my job. But meanwhile, wip for any stupid detail x.x

This is how I work and I always sent them these steps:

_- I always send several process pieces as follows

+ First rough sketch to get the pose right. You can ask for changes in this phase.
+ Final sketch, if agree, I start with the lineart. You can still ask for changes in this phase.
+ Once lineart is started you can't ask for sketch changes! (extra charge for that)
+ Next thing you will se after lineart is done and agreed, is the illustration with base colors. Here you can ask for color changes~
+ The last steps are shadows and effect, you will almost see the final piece._​


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## thesilvermist (Oct 12, 2018)

pippi said:


> You really should send WIP to avoid this kind of thing





psychonautic said:


> What pippi said, its standard practice to send wips. The commissioner is still at fault for not reading tho
> Also you should wait until all the details are set before sending an invoice, saves frustration





fralea said:


> Is this over instant messenger? Emails make it more likely for people to write out complete thoughts and think through what they want (though  not always). You could also try giving clients a form to fill out with specific spaces for all the details you need to get started, though that may not be possible for some types of work.





MissNook said:


> Yep I had the exact same issue (with a request though). I tried to talk to the guy afterwards to understand what went wrong. He said that he hadn't really put thoughts on it because he thought the idea was cool but he didn't think about how it would look like. I guess sometimes you just have to say "do some thinking, try to find what you really want and then say it to me, I can't guess" (that's what I said to him in fact XD). If you have to do the thinking for him, I think it's better to be straightforward.
> 
> Oh and another guy answered to me "I don't know, I'm not the artist, that's your job!" before I remind him that I'm not some kind of seer and he apologized for his behavior and did some thinking before asking me again.
> 
> ...





zenmaldita said:


> you gotta WIP it :I
> it's standard procedure.
> some people are just *not *blessed with the ability to describe things in their head. they're better off seeing things and confirming.
> I know we're not meant to be psychic seers - but sketch your best guesses and let them have a look at it. It's troublesome but they'll appreciate it.




Thank you all for the feed back. 
Seems WIPs are more commonly given than I realized. 
I will make changes to my TOS and policies to accommodate for this, as well as make forms to fill out for commissions ("i want something different" I'll ask what is wanted and make a custom form to get info)
And Just as a clarification (not an argument with any of you!).  The above example was based off a conversation had in Notes on an art site, not over instant messages.  But perhaps people treat that as half hearted replying as they do in IMs?  I treat it more like e-mail since its saves after you close the browser and only goes away if you delete it.  I waited 2 days after getting as much info as I could before sending the first invoice (user was still actively chatting/submitting/faving)-there was no mention of wanted 2 images until after the invoice was sent.  Also I allow for WIPs-my TOS stated you can get WIPs if you ask for them.  Most people simply don't ask... probably because they didn't read my TOS?  Ah well updating it now so it shouldn't be a point of confusion in the future.  
Thank you all again for your input!


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## zenmaldita (Oct 12, 2018)

thesilvermist said:


> Thank you all for the feed back.
> Also I allow for WIPs-my TOS stated you can get WIPs if you ask for them.  Most people simply don't ask... *probably because they didn't read my TOS?*  Ah well updating it now so it shouldn't be a point of confusion in the future.
> Thank you all again for your input!


Yeah some folks don't really read the TOS or...at all =))

My request forms have this part:
I (your name) have read, understood, and will follow zenmaldita's TOS (link of my TOS)

that way they're forced to read my TOS and reply that they did read it (even if they didn't)
if ever an issue arises, I have my copy of their agreement that they did read, understood, and promised to abide my terms. =Y


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## thesilvermist (Oct 12, 2018)

zenmaldita said:


> Yeah some folks don't really read the TOS or...at all =))
> 
> My request forms have this part:
> I (your name) have read, understood, and will follow zenmaldita's TOS (link of my TOS)
> ...


I like that.  I think I'll add it for my commission forms!


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## zenmaldita (Oct 12, 2018)

thesilvermist said:


> I like that.  I think I'll add it for my commission forms!


sweet~ 
just do whatever you can to protect yourself from misunderstandings

if it's any help, I ask my clients that we conduct the entire process in discord or FAF messages since attaching images and notifications make it more convenient.
notes are ok but sometimes people can gloss over links and text. their attention is better captured by image updates

good luck!


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## fralea (Oct 12, 2018)

thesilvermist said:


> I waited 2 days after getting as much info as I could before sending the first invoice (user was still actively chatting/submitting/faving)-there was no mention of wanted 2 images until after the invoice was sent.



Oh, from the conversation I thought you changed the invoice because there was a misunderstanding and/or they changed their mind about what type of commission they wanted. I didn't realize there were suddenly two. I think its valid to say that you won't add another project on until after you finish the first one, if they spring one on you in the middle of finalizing a project. Up to you though.



zenmaldita said:


> My request forms have this part:
> I (your name) have read, understood, and will follow zenmaldita's TOS (link of my TOS)



me too  And I did have someone order a commission, then fill out the form and read the TOS and decide to cancel. Because they were never read it when they were ordering and my terms weren't a good fit for their project. So it does come in handy!



zenmaldita said:


> if it's any help, I ask my clients that we conduct the entire process in discord or FAF messages since attaching images and notifications make it more convenient.
> notes are ok but sometimes people can gloss over links and text.  their attention is better captured by image updates



If its helpful for anyone I use a dropbox plugin for gmail that allows you to embed the WIP images into the email message. You can also do it with drive natively, but mine was filled up for a long time  (Also I like email since I use a cellphone and it will get notifications from email, and it has search/folders/tagging functions.) Just do whatever works best for you, really. You might have to try a couple things and see.


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## fralea (Oct 12, 2018)

Oh! Also it might help- this seems pretty silly but it really works for me haha.

If I have multiple questions I will separate them in a numbered list. This generally keeps me from having to ask the same questions multiple times  (since ppl tend to send the replies also in a numbered list and then dont accidentally skip any)


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## zenmaldita (Oct 12, 2018)

fralea said:


> Oh! Also it might help- this seems pretty silly but it really works for me haha.
> 
> If I have multiple questions I will separate them in a numbered list. This generally keeps me from having to ask the same questions multiple times  (since ppl tend to send the replies also in a numbered list and then dont accidentally skip any)


oh i thought i was the only one who likes to keep things super neat in numbered lists and bullets lmao

yep yep best be organized m'friend :Y


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## orionthecougar (Feb 1, 2019)

I know it's a few months old.  But from a commissioners point of view.  I value WIP's.  I usually have a good description of what I want.  But not everyone thinks the same way and sometimes it's far off from what I imagined.  However most of the time I just give a general idea and let the artist use their creativity rather than try to direct every single aspect of the picture.  I have found this works really well in most occasions.   There have been a few times that it bit me in the butt, but I don't complain about it.  I gave them artistic freedom, it's my fault it didn't turn out exactly the way I wanted it.

I almost never have an artist change anything on the sketch, unless they have tried to put human genitals on my character.


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## MadXStitcher (Feb 3, 2019)

fralea said:


> You could also try giving clients a form to fill out with specific spaces for all the details you need to get started, though that may not be possible for some types of work.



This is why I've really taken a liking to Commiss.io.  Individual listings for everything.  Person wants green square?  Order green square listing.  Person wants yellow triangle?  No yellow triangle listing.  Go somewhere else.


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## Spicy Cheeto (Feb 8, 2019)

This is going to sound harsh, but I’ll put up with anybody’s crap for a commission. It’s so rare that I even get a commission now, that I’d be thankful they’d even want a commission from me. I’d smile,nod and say “okay I’ll redraw it” if I was you. For me, beggars can’t be choosers. However if this really does annoy you, put a warning “please describe what you want me to draw in detail” so you won’t have to deal with this. Not everybody has the patience.


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## MadXStitcher (Feb 8, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> beggars can’t be choosers.



The problem with this is that it's often the commissioner who turns into the beggar.  As soon as it gets out that you don't have hard and firm rules for how many times you'll re-draw before there's an extra fee, how much you're willing to haggle, etc, you wind up getting abused.

If you're having trouble getting commissions, you should be looking into other streams of revenue.  Taking anything you can get usually only starts to make the situation worse.


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## Fruitythebeetle (Feb 8, 2019)

I like it when artist provide references for me. i can get a lot from a desription and some refernece images.


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## Spicy Cheeto (Feb 8, 2019)

MadXStitcher said:


> The problem with this is that it's often the commissioner who turns into the beggar.  As soon as it gets out that you don't have hard and firm rules for how many times you'll re-draw before there's an extra fee, how much you're willing to haggle, etc, you wind up getting abused.
> 
> If you're having trouble getting commissions, you should be looking into other streams of revenue.  Taking anything you can get usually only starts to make the situation worse.



Having to redraw something over and over again just doesn’t bother me as long as I get paid. Maybe it’s abuse for others, but it doesn’t feel like it for me personally. The way I see it is, somebody is paying for you to draw them something. It’s just a piece of paper with marks or piles of pixels stacked on top of one another and they are paying you for that,something so simple with no purpose to the world at all. I don’t have to do manual labor. I just have to redraw a sketch and see if they like it. It may be frustrating for some but as a beggar I’d gladly take it. I know this isn’t normal XD.


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## Sinclare Lovelace (Feb 8, 2019)

Gah! This kind of thing drives me insane. I don't get many comissions due to my full time job, but those I do end up in a similar boat.

Using the same C and A as Op;

C : I want *type of character for a community I'm not apart of* doing this in this room

A: okay.....so you want a background,what do they look like. Hair,eyes,skin tone,clothing style,ECT?

C: oh *vague details that only narrow it down to about 1/50 instead of 1/100*

A: *asks for clarification on details*

C: just be creative I'm sure it'll be fine. But I want high quality.


That kind of thing always makes me anxious because I have a constant fear of not being worth charging them at all,but I know I still do. I almost want people to give enough details I can imagine it in my head,exact with referrences if possible. Especially if our time scheduels make it difficult to send wips and get responses in a timely matter. So far I haven't had any bad customers but.....it's only a matter of time.

When they give you next to no details and then expect you to know everything about their character or the world they're in. -_-


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## Sweltering (Feb 9, 2019)

This is basically why I try to stream all my art with the commissioner present.

It saves so much time, back and forth.. overall confusion!
I even try to do a stream at the start of the month where all my commissioners can pop in and discuss what they want instead of sending confused forms and 28 pose refs of slightly different poses @__@ and I draw a base sketch right there to start with on their booked date.

In the end it's all because the back and forth via email or w/e usually breaks up the creative juices and you start getting frustrated. It's a much more pleasant experience in streams tbh.


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