# which things you guys hate on the furry community?



## Dolox (Jul 24, 2022)

and no im NOT a troller


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## TyraWadman (Jul 24, 2022)

The same with any fandom, really... 

_Extremists._


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## Bababooey (Jul 24, 2022)

Furries who are sex-obsessed to the point where NSFW stuff takes up like 80% of what they share and talk about. It's very annoying.

I like NSFW stuff too but some people need to chill the fuck out. Life isn't all about yiff.


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## Troj (Jul 24, 2022)

Toxic people, severely-disturbed people, and predators who take advantage of the fandom's openness, tolerance, and general dislike of conflict.
Drama (including, but not limited to, gossip/rumors, people prematurely taking sides or jumping to conclusions based on gossip/rumors, pointless or petty arguments that rapidly escalate, people rapidly taking sides in said arguments, armchair policing of petty or only-rumored offenses, and excessive and counterproductive reactions to negative events and problems.)
People with poor boundaries and/or *extremely* poor social skills
Normies bringing up the standard hit parade of urban myths, misconceptions, and actually-bad things about the fandom, and having to respond to those criticisms.


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## Foxridley (Jul 24, 2022)

Troj said:


> Toxic people, severely-disturbed people, and predators who take advantage of the fandom's openness, tolerance, and general dislike of conflict.
> Drama (including, but not limited to, gossip/rumors, people prematurely taking sides or jumping to conclusions based on gossip/rumors, pointless or petty arguments that rapidly escalate, people rapidly taking sides in said arguments, armchair policing of petty or only-rumored offenses, and excessive and counterproductive reactions to negative events and problems.)
> People with poor boundaries and/or *extremely* poor social skills
> Normies bringing up the standard hit parade of urban myths, misconceptions, and actually-bad things about the fandom, and having to respond to those criticisms.


All of this.
Also:

People who think they are entitled to free art and pester artists for it
People who think they can dictate someone else’s art or OCs.


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## LameFox (Jul 25, 2022)

The preoccupation with trying to appear palatable to people who never genuinely needed an excuse to find furries unpalatable. Well 'hate' is a strong word but I think it's stupid and self destructive.


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## Akima (Jul 25, 2022)

Toxic furries and furries that touch way to much


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## Crimcyan (Jul 25, 2022)

Groomers, 
Manipulators,
Furries who use thier political views to be a horrible person, 
Furries who are so against something because they secretary agree with it.


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## Khafra (Jul 25, 2022)

People with a serious deficit of received attention.

Also probably more personal, but I put feral art on the same shelf as cub, loli, and all those other borderline things.


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## Rayd (Jul 25, 2022)

egoists. and holy shit are there a whooooooole lot in this fandom.


that, and the whole seemingly unwritten rule where artists are on a higher plane of existence and we should all bow down to them, for they can do no wrong no matter what, and are automatically seen as exceptionally amazing people just because they can draw dog dicks. same case for those who buy a lot of art.


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## Rimna (Jul 25, 2022)

Everything. It really is like a highschool cafeteria where if you are not interesting and rich enough, you get beaten up and locked in the toilets.


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## Dolox (Jul 25, 2022)

Chomby said:


> Furries who are sex-obsessed to the point where NSFW stuff takes up like 80% of what they share and talk about. It's very annoying.
> 
> I like NSFW stuff too but some people need to chill the fuck out. Life isn't all about yiff.


i even got an experience with those people, i was in a discord server when someone just said hi in the chat and i just said hi back to em,then outta nowhere he said he was horny wand wanted to do no fap challenge, since i dont like those things i was so uncomfortable,and that person wasnt even a troller or something he was really a furry and known member of that server.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 25, 2022)

Crimcyan said:


> Groomers,
> Manipulators,
> Furries who use thier political views to be a horrible person,
> Furries who are so against something because they secretary agree with it.


How do we know you're not secretly all four of these things?


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## SirRob (Jul 25, 2022)

Really have a hard time getting along with folks who try to police the fandom. And I'm not talking about the moderators, lol



Dolox said:


> and no im NOT a troller


You absolutely are, but that's okay


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 25, 2022)

Threads like these. 

Nobody likes to trash on furries like furries. :V


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## Dolox (Jul 25, 2022)

SirRob said:


> Really have a hard time getting along with folks who try to police the fandom. And I'm not talking about the moderators, lol
> 
> 
> You absolutely are, but that's okay


bruh


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## Troj (Jul 25, 2022)

Chomby said:


> Furries who are sex-obsessed to the point where NSFW stuff takes up like 80% of what they share and talk about. It's very annoying.



To be even more specific---furries who are sex-obsessed and/or kink-obsessed to the point where they will flaunt their kinks or their horniness when it's not appropriate to do so, or who'll leap right into sexy-talk or kinky-talk when it's clearly not appropriate and/or before they've gotten a clear go-ahead, and then won't back off when people become visibly uneasy or uncomfortable.


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## Nexus Cabler (Jul 25, 2022)

One thing in particular is what happens at conventions.

Poor behavior, conduct, and sexually inappropriate actions in public convention areas.  This includes wearing kink attire, being high or drunk, littering, offensive behavior, etc.  In addition to making fellow furs uncomfortable, these things easily, and quickly become seen by people outside the fandom. If you want to enjoy booze or do lewd stuff, please avoid doing it in the main sfw areas.


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## Obvious-Anon (Jul 25, 2022)

people that “uwu” when you’re trying to have a serious conversation with them

 people who solely *only* talk about NSFW content, or literally make it their personality trait

 definitely the ones that think it’s ok to have “aggressive humor” with an acquaintance/stranger to be “quirky“


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## Troj (Jul 25, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> One thing in particular is what happens at conventions.
> 
> Poor behavior, conduct, and sexually inappropriate actions in public convention areas. This includes wearing kink attire, being high or drunk, littering, offensive behavior, etc. In addition to making fellow furs uncomfortable, these things easily, and quickly become seen by people outside the fandom. If you want to enjoy booze or do lewd stuff, please avoid doing it in the main sfw areas.



Yes---and, in light of a brouhaha at a recent convention, I feel that the "moral police" who read meaning into someone's fursuit or outfit and take it upon themselves to address that "problem" only serve to dump barrels of fuel on the fire.


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## Baron Tredegar (Jul 25, 2022)

Troj said:


> Normies bringing up the standard hit parade of urban myths, misconceptions,


Ive had to explain to one of my friends a ridiculous amount of times that furries do not think they are animals and do not shit in dogparks while wearing fursuits.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 25, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> This includes wearing kink attire, being high or drunk, littering, offensive behavior, etc.


While I agree on the broad strokes, I think it's also important to not err on the side of over-policing attire. I've personally seen full-body rubber suits, _Cats_-type getups (which are, honestly, basically accessorized zentai suits, let's be real), and leather harnesses at furry cons. While these people might _also_ have kinks dovetailing with those outfits, that's not something I'm prepared to jump to conclusions on, and their attire came off as honest self-expression to me. Same for the furry I saw wearing a pup hood at Pride (was walking with the furry group, and I believe boyfriend has since gotten to know him, so I'm not just assuming he's furry); I don't care if he's also into it, the hood itself is not _sexual_. Come to think I think there's been a gentleman with a very nice pony getup (with a hood in this general style, not a bit gag bridle or whatever) at a con or two I've attended, and, like... his attire was no more obscene than a form-fitting fursuit. 

Whether it's the intent or not, what you end up with if you try to crack down too hard is gatekeeping nonsense. "You're not being furry correctly."


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## Nexus Cabler (Jul 25, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> While I agree on the broad strokes, I think it's also important to not err on the side of over-policing attire. I've personally seen full-body rubber suits, _Cats_-type getups (which are, honestly, basically accessorized zentai suits, let's be real), and leather harnesses at furry cons. While these people might _also_ have kinks dovetailing with those outfits, that's not something I'm prepared to jump to conclusions on, and their attire came off as honest self-expression to me. Same for the furry I saw wearing a pup hood at Pride (was walking with the furry group, and I believe boyfriend has since gotten to know him, so I'm not just assuming he's furry); I don't care if he's also into it, the hood itself is not _sexual_. Come to think I think there's been a gentleman with a very nice pony getup (with a hood in this general style, not a bit gag bridle or whatever) at a con or two I've attended, and, like... his attire was no more obscene than a form-fitting fursuit.
> 
> Whether it's the intent or not, what you end up with if you try to crack down too hard is gatekeeping nonsense. "You're not being furry correctly."


I agree that over policing is dangerous, and I'll use the opportunity to specify that I'm not saying we should associate a culture with the kink. I don't see an issue with pup hoods, and lots of people who are part of the BDSM community enjoy wearing leather jackets or bracelets as a fashion accessory.

It's certainly not a black and white topic.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Jul 25, 2022)

The presence of zoophilia in places like popular fursuit makers and youtubers. I by no means attribute this to the fandom, I have a very positive view on this fandom and it's lovely people and understand how things work, but we need to keep diligent on not letting people abuse the fandom as an outlet for their harmful behavior because it _very easily _becomes a talking point for anyone willing to smear furries and who they are as people.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 25, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> I agree that over policing is dangerous, and I'll use the opportunity to specify that I'm not saying we should associate a culture with the kink. I don't see an issue with pup hoods, and lots of people who are part of the BDSM community enjoy wearing leather jackets or bracelets as a fashion accessory.
> 
> It's certainly not a black and white topic.


Yeah, having seen too much of the "kink at Pride" discourse the last couple of years I'm probably too used to seeing people saying "no kink attire" and meaning "wearing a collar in public is exposing other people to your kink think of the children." So I wanted to make sure we weren't headed in that direction. (I _have_ been to a con that had a pup meetup on the schedule, but which was like... "all gear must be covered going to and from the panel" - it's an adults-only con ffs. Of course this same con also had rules forbidding poodling, so they clearly had Feelings on how to Properly Fursuit.)


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 26, 2022)

Damn ads.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 26, 2022)

-Perpetual victim complexes
-How people cannot put a lid on their libido no matter the space
-Disrespect of personal boundaries
-The..."innovative" fetishes

These are the main things I hate about furries honestly.


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## SirRob (Jul 26, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> -Perpetual victim complexes
> -How people cannot put a lid on their libido no matter the space
> -Disrespect of personal boundaries
> -The..."innovative" fetishes
> ...


Wait all you did was describe me


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## Troj (Jul 26, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> Yeah, having seen too much of the "kink at Pride" discourse the last couple of years I'm probably too used to seeing people saying "no kink attire" and meaning "wearing a collar in public is exposing other people to your kink think of the children."



The "Kink at Pride" discourse often devolves into motte-and-bailey-type arguments because some people define "kink" as nudity or full-on kink scenes, and others clearly consider furries, drag queens, and leather in any capacity "kinky." 

Where the stated intention is to "protect the children," ironically, people end up drawing more attention to things that children themselves wouldn't think twice about if the adults around them weren't acting visibly weird and uncomfortable. 

I think it's vitally important to keep public/general spaces safe and comfortable for everybody, but we also need to avoid the trap of projecting our own tastes, sensibilities, and baggage onto others, such that we declare that someone's attire or fursuit is objectively inappropriate just because it triggers or unnerves us personally.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> I think it's vitally important to keep public/general spaces safe and comfortable for everybody, but we also need to avoid the trap of projecting our own tastes, sensibilities, and baggage onto others, such that we declare that someone's attire or fursuit is objectively inappropriate just because it triggers or unnerves us personally.


Yeah, I think it’s reasonable to be a _little_ more lenient in con spaces, sort of to a degree equivalent to, uh… someone with a lot of ink wearing his shirt and slacks covering most (or all) of it at the office, and wearing a tank top or something when he goes to hang at the bar next to his tattoo shop. That’s a shit analogy but the base idea being that “casual” in everyday space and “casual” in a convention space aren’t the same. 

So yeah. When I see unqualified “no kink attire” I probably read it slightly alarmist because of having seen both the kink at Pride discourse and the frequently recurring demands from community members that we clean up the fandom’s image and get more performative about denouncing the unwanted elements.


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## Xitheon (Jul 26, 2022)

"Cub" art and anything that sexualizes minors. I've seen too many images of underage Disney animal characters having sexual contact, sometimes even being raped. If it's not yet illegal to post that kind of art it *should* be illegal.


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## Inferndragon (Jul 26, 2022)

People who overstep their boundaries.
I had this one person, who i will not name, had a bowser avatar and would constantly stalk me and a few friends just because we had Dragon avatars.

Similar to what Xitheon said above involving Sexualisation of cartoon characters (That were designed around kids.) Which in turn expose young people to fetishes at an early age. Which can cause more issues than what not.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 26, 2022)

1) The predatory problem.


2) People never wanting to address the problem above. The weird thing is, every time I bring up the fact that this fandom has major problems with predatory behavior toward women and children (in particular) — every furry under the sun jumps in to give the same excuse about how every fandom has these issues. Nobody ever wants to acknowledge these problems exist to a degree that, no, not every fandom has. Yes there’s fandoms out there with equal levels of predation but the furry fandom and a couple of close others have unusually high amounts.

3) Furries who treat minorities badly and think it’s appropriate to “debate” about their existence. In particular, transgender people. We have a lot of LGBT furs around and it’s extremely gross that we also have a large bloc of furs willing to spread hate and then hide behind “it’s just a political opinion”

4) The amount of kids in the fandom. I’m sorry… this is my most controversial one. And I myself first joined this fandom when I was still a teenager. But this fandom has a heavy sexual element that is VERY publicly displayed. Not to mention the amount of children who are preyed upon in the fandom. I don’t feel that this fandom is appropriate for people under 18… especially those under 16. No, I don’t think kids ought to be banned/restricted but I _do _think that this fandom isn’t the most appropriate one for kids.

5) Moral police. No, liking feral characters is not the same thing as zoophilia. No, people wearing pup masks at cons while fully clothed is not inappropriate. No, not every single character design is “problematic” somehow. Please stop moral policing. Unless someone is actually harming kids, animals, or being an actual hateful bigot — let people enjoy their escape. We’re all _furries _after all. We don’t have much room to be judging others


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## Troj (Jul 26, 2022)

Xitheon said:


> "Cub" art and anything that sexualizes minors. I've seen too many images of underage Disney animal characters having sexual contact, sometimes even being raped. If it's not yet illegal to post that kind of art it *should* be illegal.



I'm generally uncomfortable with the idea of policing people's imaginations or going after them for expressing antisocial desires towards hypothetical, nonexistent, or fictional parties, buuuuuut I agree that cub art and the like makes me deeply, profoundly uncomfortable, at least.


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## Bababooey (Jul 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> I'm generally uncomfortable with the idea of policing people's imaginations or going after them for expressing antisocial desires towards hypothetical, nonexistent, or fictional parties, buuuuuut I agree that cub art and the like makes me deeply, profoundly uncomfortable, at least.


It normalizes and promotes pedophilia. The potential real life consequences of that is a big issue.


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## Xitheon (Jul 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> I'm generally uncomfortable with the idea of policing people's imaginations or going after them for expressing antisocial desires towards hypothetical, nonexistent, or fictional parties, buuuuuut I agree that cub art and the like makes me deeply, profoundly uncomfortable, at least.



I understand your reluctance to condemn people for expressing their personal fantasies and desires, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Anything that encourages or supports pedophilia is definitely over the line of what should be considered acceptable.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Jul 26, 2022)

My biggest gripe with the furry fandom is its inability to decide on how exactly it wants to move forward on its potential adoption into mainstream culture. We're at an inflection point where this transition is occurring (or at the very least on the cusp of occurring). Few furries seem to be aware of this and the fallout that this phase is going to bring.

On one hand the fandom yearns to be accepted by mainstream society but on the other it still wants to cling to a lot of bullshit that mainstream society will not tolerate.

Here's the deal: in order for a subculture to find a space within the folds of its mainstream counterpart it must first go through a sort of "cultural sanitization process" where cultural facets that greater society _doesn't _sanction or tolerate are done away with while new "socially-correct" facets are installed in their place so that the subculture can be made more accessible to the masses. My opinion on shit like Gamergate are mixed to pro-GG (_surprise surprise_ ), but you saw this go down with gaming during the early 2000s to 2010s where there was downward pressure placed on the gaming scene by normies to do away with overtly sexualized female characters and to pump the brakes on the white male protagonist party train in order to allow a more diverse crowd of protagonists a major shot in the spotlight. The booby ladies and white dudes haven't gone the way of the Dodo but it rapidly became standard to push them and other older hallmarks of "old" gaming culture to the wayside in favor of more progressive and "modern" elements.

But in the case of the furry fandom, mainstream adoption/acceptance means nothing on the zoophilia axis (ferals and blatant human X feral art), the pedophilia axis (cub art), and the BDSM axis (pet play, harnesses, etc) can be allowed.

The fandom has a choice: it can allow itself to merge into the mainstream sphere, in turn losing a lot of what made it a safe haven for the weirder and "out there" members of society but gaining _far _more members to its ranks, securing a more positive and widespread foothold in mainstream media, and seeing far more furry merchandise and products being tailored towards it.

[Oh, and you'll probably see the sexual identity ratios flip to a point where straight people will *heavily *outnumber members of the LGBTQ+ community. If you are LGBTQ+, this will probably be bad in your POV.]

_...or _it can remain a cultural niche and forever be seen by "normal society" as a den of sexual degenerates while still maintaining its core identity as a space where everyone and everything is allowed (or at the very least begrudgingly tolerated).

I don't think there's much of a middle-grown that can be reached, though. The discussion space is far too radioactive for any meaningful discussion to be had or for any sort of peaceful transition in either direction to occur (this thread is a great example of how divided the fandom is on this issue). What's more likely to happen (mostly because this is what usually happens when a subculture reaches this particular phase of its lifecycle) is that a more pronounced and volatile splitting of the fandom into more atomized components will occur, with the largest "micro-subculture" being the normie-approved variant that mainstream society elects to adopt and the more fringe elements housing "the rest" of the fandom.


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## Foxridley (Jul 26, 2022)

RAM said:


> But in the case of the furry fandom, mainstream adoption/acceptance means nothing on the zoophilia axis (ferals and blatant human X feral art), the pedophilia axis (cub art), and the BDSM axis (pet play, harnesses, etc) can be allowed.


Now, this is one thing I’m not sure about when people bring up, but is this only referring to sexualized/nsfw feral or just feral characters in general?


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## KimberVaile (Jul 26, 2022)

RAM said:


> [Oh, and you'll probably see the sexual identity ratios flip to a point where straight people will *heavily *outnumber members of the LGBTQ+ community. If you are LGBTQ+, this will probably be bad in your POV.]



I'm going to speak from my own perspective, which is obviously a bit self serving. But, I've been noticing this myself. Or at least I am perceiving it to be so, that the amount of straight people in the fandom is rising, while the amount of err, not hero types? Is dwindling a bit. I've been in the fandom before Furaffinity was a thing. And I remember in the early days when Fa was first founded, it seemed to be a place where gay leaning stuff/content was slightly more on the norm than the hetero stuff. The fandom was also, oddly a bit more of a roughhouse, the culture of the early FA Site led to people like 2 Gryphon gaining relevance. The fandom had quite an edge in the early days, that has only recently waned.

I'm not going to really comment on how good or bad that change was, but I've been concerned for a while that the slight non hetero majority the LGBTQ community has here will be undone eventually. Is it selfish to worry on that? Certainly. It's probably not fair to hetero folks in that regard.

But it's a big reason why I've been against the idea of the fandom becoming mainstream, it'll become far too much like every other subculture that became mainstream. It's one of the few places where the gay sorts have something of a majority. It'd hurt quite a bit, to see that aspect of the fandom fray away too, and become just like everything else that's been mainstreamed in all but name.

Well, you know it's also the tendency for like these preachy types that like to speak on behalf of people. You know, the white Karen that speaks on what it means to be Black, or gay, or trans, and how you should treat them. Those types that speak over actual minorities to say what the minorities want or need to be treated. That's the nightmare scenario for me.


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## SirRob (Jul 26, 2022)

Thankfully our beloved site admin is kinky as hell so even if furries were to go "mainstream" I'll be comforted knowing that FurAffinity will always be FurAffinity.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 26, 2022)

RAM said:


> My biggest gripe with the furry fandom is its inability to decide on how exactly it wants to move forward on its potential adoption into mainstream culture. We're at an inflection point where this transition is occurring (or at the very least on the cusp of occurring). Few furries seem to be aware of this and the fallout that this phase is going to bring.
> 
> On one hand the fandom yearns to be accepted by mainstream society but on the other it still wants to cling to a lot of bullshit that mainstream society will not tolerate.
> 
> ...


Time to make normal society full of gay, femboy, BDSM-loving, degenerates


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm going to speak from my own perspective, which is obviously a bit self serving. But, I've been noticing this myself. Or at least I am perceiving it to be so, that the amount of straight people in the fandom is rising, while the amount of err, not hero types? Is dwindling a bit. I've been in the fandom before Furaffinity was a thing. And I remember in the early days when Fa was first founded, it seemed to be a place where gay leaning stuff/content was slightly more on the norm than the hetero stuff. The fandom was also, oddly a bit more of a roughhouse, the culture of the early FA Site led to people like 2 Gryphon gaining relevance. The fandom had quite an edge in the early days, that has only recently waned.
> 
> I'm not going to really comment on how good or bad that change was, but I've been concerned for a while that the slight non hetero majority the LGBTQ community has here will be undone eventually. Is it selfish to worry on that? Certainly. It's probably not fair to hetero folks in that regard.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I’m unconvinced there’s been any major shift in demographics vis-a-vis sexuality. I got into fandom around the turn of the century, possibly a year or so before (earlier if you also count in gryphon fandom; I was on the old Gryphon’s Guild ITW forum around the mid-90s). There were plenty of lady tiddies being drawn by pretty popular/prominent male artists. There was also a type of comment I’ve seen less of in the last 15 or so years - the “this would be better if it was gay/straight/male/female/herm” comments being made on sexual or suggestive art. Misogyny from gay men is also something I used to see more of. (This is not to rag on gay men in _or_ out of fandom, the vast majority are not that kind of asshole, but rather just an example of how what is said and how in these spaces has shifted in general.)

What I believe has grown within fandom, that accounts for at least part of the appearance of shifting demographics, is non-gay/non-male furries being more open about those things. Very few straight furries used to really say much about it. As more people explicitly say "I'm straight" the perception becomes "more people are straight" when the balance may not have shifted so much.

In general I don't believe that "mainstreaming" is a threat to furry fandom. What we've seen so far is more... Big anthro feature comes out, gets its own fandom, portion of that fandom spills over into furry fandom, and assimilates. Hostility, to the extent that it exists, might fade with the rise of adjacent fandoms (_Furtopia_ etc.), but I don't think that's something that will automatically translate into some kind of Disney-like sanitization of what fandom is today, or was 20+ years ago.


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## Deleted member 159133 (Jul 27, 2022)

Troj said:


> Toxic people, severely-disturbed people, and predators who take advantage of the fandom's openness, tolerance, and general dislike of conflict.
> Drama (including, but not limited to, gossip/rumors, people prematurely taking sides or jumping to conclusions based on gossip/rumors, pointless or petty arguments that rapidly escalate, people rapidly taking sides in said arguments, armchair policing of petty or only-rumored offenses, and excessive and counterproductive reactions to negative events and problems.)
> People with poor boundaries and/or *extremely* poor social skills
> Normies bringing up the standard hit parade of urban myths, misconceptions, and actually-bad things about the fandom, and having to respond to those criticisms.


1. if i encounter one i will try talking peacfuly with them or if they get toxic am just gonna report them for extreme insulting xd
2. yeah i reviewed also drama here, including the big one with administration team but i understand now so am not gonna get into drama, if i accidently get pulled into one i just want you to know how m i going to talk and do not try and be and a**hole because you probably not gonna go through me that easly
3. i can actually help people i mean i was ususaly an introvert who was bullied at school because you know those "attention seekers" those poor bastards who didnt get much attention from parents and are throwing it at other people resulting in bulling.
4. normies xd i will if i find one i will bring up furscience or some other research and throw at them to read IF i find one.

Edit: checking for grammar mistakes and misspellings..


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## Deleted member 159133 (Jul 27, 2022)

SaltyDog169 said:


> Damn ads.


what do you mean it is just on the top ads and nowhere else just on top i mean hows that bothering you xd
OK if its like porn ad then its bothering xd


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## Deleted member 159133 (Jul 27, 2022)

SaltyDog169 said:


> Damn ads.


i mean i currently have this one that goes like this:

PREDATORS...PREY....THE WAR IS HERE...


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## Goon the frank (Jul 27, 2022)

It's annoying when people tag their art as general when it is clearly a fetish (though that might just be a mistake). I want to stay to the SFW side, at least for a while.

I'd like to hear what people like about the fandom, too. You don't have to go to furaffinity to find people making a case against furries, you can find that just about anywhere.
For me, I like the general lack of judgement. It makes it easier to talk to people.


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## Troj (Jul 27, 2022)

Xitheon said:


> I understand your reluctance to condemn people for expressing their personal fantasies and desires, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Anything that encourages or supports pedophilia is definitely over the line of what should be considered acceptable.


Mind you, I think it's perfectly reasonable and often downright smart for publishers and platforms to say, "We're simply not going to allow or host X content." So, I'm completely on board with websites banning cub and the like.

I also think it's vitally important for communities and individuals to draw the line at harmful or toxic opinions, comments, and behaviors. The furry fandom is sometimes _too _quick to decide that another person is some kind of sex pest or dangerous deviant based on scant evidence--yet another thing I resent about the community--but even so, calling out sussy, inappropriate, unethical, and toxic stuff in an appropriate and measured way is _essential_ to maintaining a healthy, safe community of any sort. Even Fetlife just doesn't allow you to endorse or promote certain kinds of kinks and activities, and I think that's very wise and ethical of them.

Actually _criminalizing_ stuff opens up a next-level logistical can of worms whose implications you really have to think through before leaping in. I just don't trust most legislators to use restraint and good judgement about the sorts of fictional or fantasy scenarios that should be "allowed" or not if given the opportunity to dictate that.



Goon the frank said:


> It's annoying when people tag their art as general when it is clearly a fetish (though that might just be a mistake). I want to stay to the SFW side, at least for a while.
> 
> I'd like to hear what people like about the fandom, too. You don't have to go to furaffinity to find people making a case against furries, you can find that just about anywhere.
> For me, I like the general lack of judgement. It makes it easier to talk to people.



Agreed. Granted, some fetish art absolutely falls into a grey area especially where certain body types, body parts, and "toony" or absurdist scenarios are concerned, and I think it's fine to tag more subtle or on-the-fence stuff as "General." But, if most or all adults would agree, "This is fap material," it should be tagged as Mature or Adult as a general rule.

Re: the *Mainstreaming of the Fandom*, I would like the fandom to be _accepted _by the general society, but I'd prefer for it not to become _assimilated _into the general society. I just want the average person to be fine with furries, and I want it to be broadly seen as cruel and uncool to scapegoat furries or punch down at us. I don't want see fur-cons sponsored by major corporations. I don't want corporate vendors at fur-cons. I don't even want to see big box stores selling "furry merch" or their own mass-produced fursuits. I am totally fine with mass media and advertisers including little nods and winks to the fandom, but I don't want us to be marketed as the hot new trend or the popular new subculture.

Speaking of enforcing norms and boundaries, I think we need to make it clear that anyone wishing to enter our "house" or take advantage of its boons and benefits must abide by the "house rules" and respect our "house culture," which is quirky, queer (and not just in the strict LGBT-sense), neurodivergent, geeky, creative, and DIY.


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## Deleted member 106754 (Jul 27, 2022)

Double standards when it comes to adult content, in particular how a good chunk of the community has this very broken mindset that as soon as it stands on 4 legs it's terrible, but they themselves can be excused and are better just because. People try to differentiate wild dragons and centaurs not being the same thing, people drawing detailed private bits far from human, or wild animalistic beasts and A okaying it while shaming the rest. Kind of people just trying to shift the shame onto others due to their own insecurities.

Not to say that some of the points "some" of the more level headed people make isn't without merit, but it's more so the extremes and black and white view others take.

The whole Anthro-Feral argument is super tiring and I've even seen threads on this very forum where some of the replies makes me want to slam my head in the desk.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 27, 2022)

The boundless hypocrisy and wide acceptance of extremely damaging tendencies, so some of the same things I hate about people in general, really. Certainly exacerbated however


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## Judge Spear (Jul 27, 2022)

Have furry go mainstream and you will see the death of anything you like in this fandom.

Furries constant need for validation and allowing their niche to be commodified will 100% ruin what marginal good this community has.
Furry is cringe. Embrace it. Because it's one of the last "pure" things left on the Internet. For all it's bullshit and modern day primadonna political posturing, I'd rather that than what corporatizing this fandom would do.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 27, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Have furry go mainstream and you will see the death of anything you like in this fandom.
> 
> Furries constant need for validation and allowing their niche to be commodified will 100% ruin what marginal good this community has.
> Furry is cringe. Embrace it. Because it's one of the last "pure" things left on the Internet. For all it's bullshit and modern day primadonna political posturing, I'd rather that than what corporatizing this fandom would do.


Fringe is cringe, it rhymes for a reason. It's up to us to just have a backbone and protect our way of life

Otherwise who's to say, with the sort of woke pandering corporations somehow still believe is a great sale strategy to this day, that you can't combine corporate culture AND bullshit political posturing? I could totally see such a dystopia forming.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

There's nothing wrong with having fetishes, but when nsfw takes up 80% of your posts, then there's nothing I can say for you.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 27, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Fringe is cringe, it rhymes for a reason. It's up to us to just have a backbone and protect our way of life
> 
> Otherwise who's to say, with the sort of woke pandering corporations somehow still believe is a great sale strategy to this day, that you can't combine corporate culture AND bullshit political posturing? I could totally see such a dystopia forming.


Yeah they will raze the fandom into the same sanitized shit as the rest of the Internet to push increasingly invasive ads. It's why people were so outraged when Sean sold out and gave FA to IMVU (Best Buy) in 2015 before the site was bought back last year. Keep it grassroots.

Oh people make fun of us a little bit. Nut up.
I'd rather be made fun of and exist as an individual than be scrubbed clean to fit a homogenous mold because a suit wants to sell Toyotas.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Jul 27, 2022)

SaltyDog169 said:


> There's nothing wrong with having fetishes, but when nsfw takes up 80% of your posts, then there's nothing I can say for you.


Why? NSFW shit has been incredibly popular forever. Monks were drawing women picking dicks off trees in the margins of bibles. Porn is shown on Greek vases. Some of the oldest statues we have are clearly meant to be porn items (they're unnaturally fat and endowed women). To drag it back, many artists are trying to make money... and porn sells. Are folks with a lot of porn somehow bad? 

I take a lot of issue with people complaining about too much porn, and acting superior because of it. Or imposing their morality (as if its the right "morality") on what anyone else posts. It's already appeared here, and comes up damn near monthly in another threadnaught. 

Gonna be honest - the utter disregard for conventions of appropriateness is a strong point of this fandom. The porn is good - because the porn lets people explore who they are. The disgregard for societal norms of what's appropriate art and what isn't lets people explore themselves in safe ways. I don't think you can truly be LGBT+ positive without a hefty amount of sexual content. Considering the definition of that acronym is who you want to bump uglies with, you kinda need to explore all avenues. 

Want an example - there's an entire thread on "does the fandom make you gay" - and many folks in it admitted to learning about themselves via this fandom. And since it's porn heavy, well... You know how they got there.

So to complain about too much porn, or the wrong porn, or any of that, is to straight up be arguing against the very vehicle that lets this fandom help people.


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## ConorHyena (Jul 27, 2022)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> I take a lot of issue with people complaining about too much porn, and acting superior because of it. Or imposing their morality (as if its the right "morality") on what anyone else posts. It's already appeared here, and comes up damn near monthly in another threadnaught.


This. Totally this.


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## The_Happiest_Husky (Jul 27, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> "wearing a collar in public is exposing other people to your kink think of the children."


And even that not everything people think is a kink, is. I wear a collar regularly, but it's not a kink thing. I just like wearing one, and having different charms on it


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## Judge Spear (Jul 27, 2022)

RubberfemAsriel said:


> When thay show off there suits and not be open for makeing one for you. showing off how great they are being its not only unfair but counter productive flamboyant pepole like ncad and GamzeeCRAFT im jealous of.


Well this is just plain selfish.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 27, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> And even that not everything people think is a kink, is. I wear a collar regularly, but it's not a kink thing. I just like wearing one, and having different charms on it


Oh, absolutely, that was part of my point; all too often people who want to police what they have decided is "kink gear" (or "fetish art" or anything else) will happily throw the people who aren't in it for the kink to the wolves. Because to them it's "obvious" that you wouldn't have worn it/drawn it/foo unless it got your jollies jolly. Which is silly, but excessive prudeness often is.


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## Bababooey (Jul 27, 2022)

RubberfemAsriel said:


> When thay show off there suits and not be open for makeing one for you. showing off how great they are being its not only unfair but counter productive flamboyant pepole like ncad and GamzeeCRAFT im jealous of.


People don't owe you their time and labor unless you pay for an open commission slot. Try acting your age. You look ridiculous. 

Also work on your grammar.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

Let's say I have a fetish, (which I may or may not, I'd just prefer not to say). I'm not going to go flaunting it around like an idiot.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

SaltyDog169 said:


> Damn ads.





Sir_Were said:


> what do you mean it is just on the top ads and nowhere else just on top i mean hows that bothering you xd
> OK if its like porn ad then its bothering xd


Actually I was kinda trying to be funny. Guess it didn't work.


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## Troj (Jul 27, 2022)

Just musing, but I'd say there's porn, and then there's porn. The devil's really in the details for me, and those finer points serve to shape my perception of people, fairly or unfairly.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

Ikr?


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## Borophagus Metropolis (Jul 27, 2022)

I just hate that “normies” think we’re all degenerates. I might be, but I don’t think most of you are.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Jul 27, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> Now, this is one thing I’m not sure about when people bring up, but is this only referring to sexualized/nsfw feral or just feral characters in general?



Sexualized/nsfw feral stuff. The average person would probably be appreciative of a standard SFW feral OC (particularly if it's illustrated in a more cartoonish fashion), but they will be hostile towards a sexualized feral OC because of the latter's close proximity to outright zoophilia.

Drawing lioness pussies will get you slapped with the doggy diddler label without hesitation but I don't think a normie is going get too mad at a knockoff Lion King OC or something like that.


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## Khafra (Jul 27, 2022)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> I don't think you can truly be LGBT+ positive without a hefty amount of sexual content.


While I am on the side of not policing other people's private lives, personal freedom and all that jazz when it comes to porn and anything else, if someone said this to my face, I would throw hands.

As a person currently in a gay relationship who someday hopes his country would adopt more modern values for same-sex marriage and general LGBT rights, there is nothing I hate more than people who immediately start treating me as hyper sexual or some kind of deviant. Both homophobes and the pride crowd do this, and I'm frankly sick of both sides, because it feels like there is no room in either for a regular person who happens to be gay in either. Yes, the LGBT environment is on average more erotic than the rest of the world. It is absolutely fucking not necessary to be a sex freak if you happen to be non-hetero. Stop pushing this stupid idea. You guys can display your freakiness in bed all you want (within the reasonable spaces for it) and I'll keep on being vanilla. Everyone is happy, my tired, frustrated rant is over, thank you.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Jul 27, 2022)

Borophagus Metropolis said:


> I just hate that “normies” think we’re all degenerates. I might be, but I don’t think most of you are.



That's the cost the fandom pays for harboring so many "interesting" personalities within its ranks. There have been way too many instances of whacko motherfuckers getting outed as literal dogfuckers, appreciators of underage formfactors, and rapists. And way too many furries have been seeing defending these very same types just because they can sling a mean stylus or run a gamepad with serious style. Word gets around. Google Images is no joke.

Reputations and stereotypes are earned. They_ never, ever_ manifest in a vacuum.  And this is going to go against the grain held by a lot of people who are currently posting in this thread but normies _technically _don't owe furries any sort of acceptance because normies _don't _have a burning urge for furries to accept them nor will they lose anything or otherwise be harmed for rejecting the fandom wholesale. Annoying as they are, they're the dominant demographic in this relationship. They get to set the terms. If furries want to be let through their gilded gates, the whacky and zany sexual material has to go.

Like seriously, if I described to all of the wrench turners at my job what this fandom was really about, they'd think I was beyond dumb. Those dudes only care about paying their F-150 notes, figuring out how much 30-30 ammo they can grab with their next paycheck, or planning what sort of meat they're going to toss on the pit this weekend. They aren't trying to hear the youngest dude on the shop floor talk about a group of people who dress up as animals.

And I'm not saying they're right for thinking this way but I'm a huge proponent of engaging with reality directly rather than getting angry at it or attempting to rewrite it according to my will. I've gotten far more positive results out of life when I accepted certain confines while simultaneously learning to work _within _or _around  _those very same confines, not _against _them.

The reality is that normies think shit that deviates too far from what's considered societally kosher is no good. While such standards do change with time, I don't see them welcoming the shit that gets posted on e621 or the shit that goes down on furry Telegram anytime soon.

Personally though, I don't care--mainly because my relationship with the fandom is superficial at best because about 75% of the fandom's culture fucking sucks and is straight up anathema to my dudebro ass. I make for a shitty furry I guess. I don't know.

If y'all want to get metaphorically bought out by a deluge of empty suits, cool. If y'all want to keep all of this stuff in-house and shore up those anti-normie defenses, awesome. Makes no difference to me.

I just wish people would stop trying to have their cake and eat it too.


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## The_Happiest_Husky (Jul 27, 2022)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> I don't think you can truly be LGBT+ positive without a hefty amount of sexual content.


Are we just ignoring ace folk now?


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## Deleted member 127940 (Jul 27, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Are we just ignoring ace folk now?



Tbh they kind of come off as a weird "afterthought" of sorts whenever anything LGBTQ+ related gets brought up. 

Like, I know they exist, but I don't consciously think of them whenever someone brings up LGBTQ+ topics.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

It's funny the amount of hate in this community, and yes, Ik I'm literally on a thread called what do you guys hate on the furry community.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

Also don't blame me for any of this. I'm not arguing for either side.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 27, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> Honestly, I’m unconvinced there’s been any major shift in demographics vis-a-vis sexuality. I got into fandom around the turn of the century, possibly a year or so before (earlier if you also count in gryphon fandom; I was on the old Gryphon’s Guild ITW forum around the mid-90s). There were plenty of lady tiddies being drawn by pretty popular/prominent male artists. There was also a type of comment I’ve seen less of in the last 15 or so years - the “this would be better if it was gay/straight/male/female/herm” comments being made on sexual or suggestive art. Misogyny from gay men is also something I used to see more of. (This is not to rag on gay men in _or_ out of fandom, the vast majority are not that kind of asshole, but rather just an example of how what is said and how in these spaces has shifted in general.)
> 
> What I believe has grown within fandom, that accounts for at least part of the appearance of shifting demographics, is non-gay/non-male furries being more open about those things. Very few straight furries used to really say much about it. As more people explicitly say "I'm straight" the perception becomes "more people are straight" when the balance may not have shifted so much.
> 
> In general I don't believe that "mainstreaming" is a threat to furry fandom. What we've seen so far is more... Big anthro feature comes out, gets its own fandom, portion of that fandom spills over into furry fandom, and assimilates. Hostility, to the extent that it exists, might fade with the rise of adjacent fandoms (_Furtopia_ etc.), but I don't think that's something that will automatically translate into some kind of Disney-like sanitization of what fandom is today, or was 20+ years ago.


Certainly there have been some changes that were for the better. But, we both can only speak anecdotally really. Most furry themed video games I've come across with a sexual aspect to them are geared towards straight furries usually. I'd say any sort of furry media that's been released has that same trend. If I recall correctly Miles-DF seems to be one of the highest earning furry artists, he's a dude drawing furry tits, for dudes who like furry tits, usually.

It's not so much a woe is me moment so much as just realizing that the wind is blowing in a different direction now, as I see it. I'd certainly consider that new direction unfortunate, I'm not about to jump for joy over it. But, I've always felt the writing was on the wall for the LGBTQ majority in the fandom. That the time for it is passing and being replaced with something else. Of course, just noticing the big projects/artists or movements gaining attention doesn't prove anything, but it's also silly to pretend it means nothing.

Some changes are good, some are bad. Personally, I'd be quite happy to put the brakes on the mainstreaming thing. Let the fandom be awkward, let it be off colour and strange. It need not assimilate in any meaningful way with modern culture. I've never really minded the hostility the mainstream had towards the fandom, because in a sense, they are right. Furries are weird, they're cringe inducing, out of touch at times.
_I'm_ weird and cringe inducing. We've always been a weird lot, and I don't really mind that. I _like _being weird

Some things in life, just are. I just accept the fandom for what it is. These sort of changes in culture, the sanitization and transference from one thing to another. It's never an overnight process, it's something that takes many years. That process will slowly burn bits of the fandom away as the fandom conforms to the mainstream. Ideally, the only bits lost would be purging the zoophiles and pedophiles in the fandom, but, I'm not optomisitic we'd be as lucky as to have that happen.

That said, I'm obviously not an authority on anything. I'm another furry pissing in the wind on a small forum.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Certainly there have been some changes that were for the better. But, we both can only speak anecdotally really. Most furry themed video games I've come across with a sexual aspect to them are geared towards straight furries usually. I'd say any sort of furry media that's been released has that same trend. If I recall correctly Miles-DF seems to be one of the highest earning furry artists, he's a dude drawing furry tits, for dudes who like furry tits, usually.
> 
> It's not so much a woe is me moment so much as just realizing that the wind is blowing in a different direction now, as I see it. I'd certainly consider that new direction unfortunate, I'm not about to jump for joy over it. But, I've always felt the writing was on the wall for the LGBTQ majority in the fandom. That the time for it is passing and being replaced with something else. Of course, just noticing the big projects/artists or movements gaining attention doesn't prove anything, but it's also silly to pretend it means nothing.
> 
> ...



This. Not sure why we _have _to look better for mainstream. Who cares? This has always been a niche, nerd hobby. It’s a place for people to escape to and enjoy themselves. I don’t see why we have to pearl clutch and act like this fandom needs a cleansing. Besides… any time we’ve tried to “clean” it ends up being toxic as fuck and worse off than before. I for one don’t mind mainstream society thinking we’re weirdos. We are and that is _fine. _

I also agree that the fandom feels to me like there’s more hetero elements entering. I personally liked how LGBT-centric it was but I suppose things do change. The only thing I can safely say irritated me about “straight furries” was the constant complaining about how hard it is to find partners (welcome to the reality for LGBT people irl lol) or how there’s too much gay art. This is a gay fandom. It’s undeniable the roots this fandom has in LGBT.

Anyways… I’ve stopped giving a shit what anyone thinks of me or my interest in the fandom. Don’t like it? Oh well. Pearl-clutch some more. I’m here to enjoy myself in any way I feel appropriate.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> This. Not sure why we _have _to look better for mainstream. Who cares? This has always been a niche, nerd hobby. It’s a place for people to escape to and enjoy themselves. I don’t see why we have to pearl clutch and act like this fandom needs a cleansing. Besides… any time we’ve tried to “clean” it ends up being toxic as fuck and worse off than before. I for one don’t mind mainstream society thinking we’re weirdos. We are and that is _fine. _
> 
> I also agree that the fandom feels to me like there’s more hetero elements entering. I personally liked how LGBT-centric it was but I suppose things do change. The only thing I can safely say irritated me about “straight furries” was the constant complaining about how hard it is to find partners (welcome to the reality for LGBT people irl lol) or how there’s too much gay art. This is a gay fandom. It’s undeniable the roots this fandom has in LGBT.
> 
> Anyways… I’ve stopped giving a shit what anyone thinks of me or my interest in the fandom. Don’t like it? Oh well. Pearl-clutch some more. I’m here to enjoy myself in any way I feel appropriate.


I'm not gay, but otherwise I totally agree.


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## Borophagus Metropolis (Jul 27, 2022)

RAM said:


> That's the cost the fandom pays harboring so many "interesting" personalities within its ranks. There have been way too many instances of whacko motherfuckers getting outed as literal dogfuckers, appreciators of underage formfactors, and rapists. And way too many furries have been seeing defending these very same types just because they can sling a mean stylus or run a gamepad with serious style. Word gets around. Google Images is no joke.
> 
> Reputations and stereotypes are earned. They_ never, ever_ manifest in a vacuum.  And this is going to go against the grain held by a lot of people who are currently posting in this thread but normies _technically _don't owe furries any sort of acceptance because normies _don't _have a burning urge for furries to accept them nor will they lose anything or otherwise be harmed for rejecting the fandom wholesale. Annoying as they are, they're the dominant demographic in this relationship. They get to set the terms. If furries want to be let through their gilded gates, the whacky and zany sexual material has to go.
> 
> ...



I’m a shitty furry, too.


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## Punji (Jul 27, 2022)

Personally speaking, I would absolutely loathe to see the fandom becoming more mainstream if it meant the sterilization and loss of what made it unique in the first place. I want furries to be seen as okay and acceptable, but I'd rather it mean something to be a furry rather than just another marketing audience.

Things I don't like about the furry fandom, in no particular order:

Political extremists/diehards and those who's *entire *world view can be summed up as a single common political stance. I'm not a furry for the politics but it seems there is no escape in our escapism. Why is this even a thing in the furry fandom?
Abusers and those who willingly hurt others within the fandom.
The inclusion of NSFW/adult aspects in places where they don't belong, especially when within the public eye. Our reputation is bad enough even when we're not doing anything at all wrong, no reason to give other people a reason to think lesser of furries.
The moral policing and double standards.
The social affluence given to artists and popufurs and such. Having skill in art or being YouTube Famous™ or getting a lot of nice art or just being a fun fursuiter doesn't automatically make someone a good person. A lot of these people seem to have very flawed streaks to their personalities but their niche fame seems to protect them from rightful criticism.
The [perceived?] promiscuity of the average furry. Conventions shouldn't be a place to go for random hookups, in my opinion.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> If I recall correctly Miles-DF seems to be one of the highest earning furry artists, he's a dude drawing furry tits, for dudes who like furry tits, usually.


Highest earning because oh LORD those prices.
I fucking *wish* bro.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 27, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> The only thing I can safely say irritated me about “straight furries” was the constant complaining about how hard it is to find partners (welcome to the reality for LGBT people irl lol) or how there’s too much gay art. This is a gay fandom. It’s undeniable the roots this fandom has in LGBT.


Still get those comments too, lol.
Oh mah gawd, it's so hawd for me to find a female on this site! UwU Where do I find big titty furry goff gf plz? I have to roll my eyes everytime I see that. Not to flash my minority card like a douche, but I had to deal with that shit every day I wasn't in the fandom. Was never compelled to stomp my feet and whinge over it.

Suck it up.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 27, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Highest earning because oh LORD those prices.
> I fucking *wish* bro.


I always suspected it was why he could get away with selling $7,500 YCH commissions.

Though, here's were I'll get into some controversial takes.

I always wondered if his success is not so much about his ability to draw than how well he is advertising himself and his art style.
It's a soft and appealing art style which furries usually like and he's got a talent for promoting himself.

Not an artist so obviously my take isn't going to mean as much, but that was at least part of my impression of his whole 'sphere'.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 27, 2022)

Wow.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I always suspected it was why he could get away with selling $7,500 YCH commissions.
> 
> Though, here's were I'll get into some controversial takes.
> 
> ...


He's been around for about 20 years or so consistently so there's for sure a branding in place.
But the real thing is he cashes in on the outrage of his pricing. Every time he opens for commissions and people cry about the prices, that gets him a lot more attention than people think. The guy's hit trending on Twitter. Furries trending outside of big conventions is one thing. But one person from the fandom?

But honestly brand is huge. Because there's a lot of people who are _horrible_ at drawing and have not improved in a decade that amass insane followings. It really does boil down to the numbers a lot of the time. It's crazy. Almost makes you cynical.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Jul 27, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I always suspected it was why he could get away with selling $7,500 YCH commissions.
> 
> Though, here's were I'll get into some controversial takes.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure Miles-DF is just the Mercedes-Benz of the furry art scene. People only buy his stuff to flaunt the fact that they paid 5 bands for a piece made by him.

It's just typical popufur shit.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 27, 2022)

RAM said:


> People only buy his stuff to flaunt the fact that they paid 5 bands for a piece made by him.


See I didn't want to say this, but that was my first thought.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 27, 2022)

RAM said:


> I'm pretty sure Miles-DF is just the Mercedes-Benz of the furry art scene. People only buy his stuff to flaunt the fact that they paid 5 bands for a piece made by him.
> 
> It's just typical popufur shit.


Feels mean to say it, but, hard to disagree.
I never got the hype behind his work.


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## Deleted member 159133 (Jul 28, 2022)

SaltyDog169 said:


> Actually I was kinda trying to be funny. Guess it didn't work.


-No -why you bringing yourself down like that? Cmon you were KIND OF trying to be funny, cmon lift yourself up a bit, ok dont literally lift yourself up xd yeah see how i tried i use literal sense if that makes sense to you...

fu*king java update, because i installed damn minecraft on here thats why..lets not start any topic there..xd

uh i wanted to add something -THEN i forgot xd nevermind i guess.. (short- i guess- ig)

ah yes uhhhhhhhhh wait god damn it forgot it again oh i meant to shout out the youtuber who helped me orient myself on that other site if you knoww what i mean  xd
wait let me find him...
hahahahhaha look at this -ok its not that funny but its helpful: 



 mmmmm m mmmm mm mmm hahahah am still listening to this damn song haha xd -oh yeah i meant to -wait..i left my son the the the xd oh yeah there it is > 




A < that meant to be an arrow.. uhhhh sh*t i forgot what i meant to say tc tc tc we are back it again with tzhis game xd, see how am trying to be funny see see sea xd
oh yeah when i was "reviewing" my comment this or his video was blurry now me keep reposting this comment -SOMEHOW made it in good quality..
hahahha AM GONNA STILL REPOST TILL I DIE > : ) XD
crap i forgot it again BACK AT IT *roleplaying as the representer* AGAIN WITH THIS GAME LADIES AND GENTLEMAN *casual talk* oh yeah -CRAP i forgot it again because of this damn song OOWIE OOWIE XD
oh yeah thank you uhh someone who game me a heart :3 xd *gets a thought* oh this is like reddit "-thank you for the gold kind stranger xd"
oh it got blurry again damn you **
Edit: checking grammar mistakes..and adding more sentences..


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## Rayd (Jul 28, 2022)

RAM said:


> I'm pretty sure Miles-DF is just the Mercedes-Benz of the furry art scene. People only buy his stuff to flaunt the fact that they paid 5 bands for a piece made by him.
> 
> It's just typical popufur shit.


i get supremely guilty whenever my fear of missing out pressures me into buying a $100 YCH, i couldn't imagine somebody with the same vice with a much, much higher budget than mine.

but i want to say you're definitely right. there's lots of similar styles both in design and quality that charge far cheaper for what is given (dare i say i've seen multiple copy-cats of the style in the past), but the way i see it, it's kind of like designer clothing - why spend $80 for a nice jacket when you could buy that same exact jacket with a renown logo on the back for $500? everyone will love you for sure!

-------------------

veering slightly off topic, but in my very brutally honest opinion, i find that a majority of commissioners solely buy art to build up a status and reputation, either because they're lonely and want a place of belonging, want to seem unique in a sea of samey-ness, or solely because of the rush of endorphins that popularity brings with itself. i find it extremely hard to believe that hundreds of people that spend thousands of dollars on art a month do it _just _because they like seeing their sona in pretty art styles.

not that that's wrong i guess? more power to them, but god damn are a lot of people that reach that level of popularity they want so often insufferable as fuck, whether it's just being plain douchebags or being the most egocentric attention whores and being totally oblivious to how sociopathic they look whenever they do and say some of the stuff they do.

for example:


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## ConorHyena (Jul 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I always wondered if his success is not so much about his ability to draw than how well he is advertising himself and his art style.
> It's a soft and appealing art style which furries usually like and he's got a talent for promoting himself.


This is literally all success is about. It's not really important how good you are, it's important how good you are with customers and at advertising.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> This is literally all success is about. It's not really important how good you are, it's important how good you are with customers and at advertising.


Sure, but you can be a great communicator and advertiser while drawing nothing but stick figures. You still have to be good at your craft at the end of the day, wouldn't say it has nothing to do with being successful.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Still get those comments too, lol.
> Oh mah gawd, it's so hawd for me to find a female on this site! UwU Where do I find big titty furry goff gf plz? I have to roll my eyes everytime I see that. Not to flash my minority card like a douche, but I had to deal with that shit every day I wasn't in the fandom. Was never compelled to stomp my feet and whinge over it.
> 
> Suck it up.


I mean, that attitude is pretty much exactly why women in male-dominated (or perceived as male-dominated) hobbies don’t mention that they’re women. Exact same shit in gaming. Zero sympathy for that kind of guy.

You’re not wrong that it’s pretty ironic who they’re complaining to, too. Like… I don’t begrudge anyone the odd bit of frustration that they can’t find even a potential partner, but there’s better ways of expressing that than we often see when straight guys lament the supposed lack of women in fandom. (“Why are there no female furries?” is _not_ the least attractive to the vast majority of women, I dare say.)



KimberVaile said:


> Some changes are good, some are bad. Personally, I'd be quite happy to put the brakes on the mainstreaming thing. Let the fandom be awkward, let it be off colour and strange. It need not assimilate in any meaningful way with modern culture. I've never really minded the hostility the mainstream had towards the fandom, because in a sense, they are right. Furries are weird, they're cringe inducing, out of touch at times.
> _I'm_ weird and cringe inducing. We've always been a weird lot, and I don't really mind that. I _like _being weird


To be clear, when I say I don’t see mainstreaming as a threat I don’t mean “let Disney in!” so much as “we’re possibly seeing a degree of increased acceptance/understanding, but I haven’t really seen signs of that changing any major aspects of what fandom is.” Like, I don’t think _any_ group should be heckled or considered an acceptable target. (I also think that furries often overestimate how many fucks people outside fandom give about us, which is part of why I find the periodic “bla bla bla we need to drive this or that group out of town with torches and pitchforks so that the normies will accept us” fucking tedious, even outside of it kinda being own goal in many cases.)

Fandom needs some degree of parallel social progress with mainstream, as all subcultures should have, but that’s not a matter of conformity. That’s a matter of not clinging on to harmful old norms for the sake of resisting change.


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## FR0ST81T3 (Jul 28, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> Yeah, having seen too much of the "kink at Pride" discourse the last couple of years I'm probably too used to seeing people saying "no kink attire" and meaning "wearing a collar in public is exposing other people to your kink think of the children." So I wanted to make sure we weren't headed in that direction. (I _have_ been to a con that had a pup meetup on the schedule, but which was like... "all gear must be covered going to and from the panel" - it's an adults-only con ffs. Of course this same con also had rules forbidding poodling, so they clearly had Feelings on how to Properly Fursuit.)


The whole collar debate gets on my nerves when I'm out in public because I wear my collars not for kink, but as a constant reminder of my pets and the hardships I have been going through to give them a better life. I also use them to match my outfits when I'm at work because the standard lanyards we are given are probably the flimsiest POS ever.

It's not about the kinks, per se, it's about individuals not being accepting of expressionism, which is a standard trait in all humans. (We ALL have those moments where we err away from cringe aspects of others. If someone says they don't, they are lying, and bad at it too.) Which also plays in to the whole mainstreaming the fandom; As with EVERY fandom, there will always be groups that dislike those fandoms and will continuously trash it as often as possible.


This is why individuals should always be wary in the beginning, anyhow. There are some of us who genuinely don't care for opinions of others, then there are those who.... Care a lot, to say the least.


Now to add my peeve about the fandom? The ones who will go out of their way to seek someone out, even if they've been blocked repeatedly. I've seen this a lot on Barq lately, where I would get messages from individuals who want to get sexual, and I or my husband immediately block them, just for them to add me on Discord, or follow me and note me on FA. Hell, I've even had a few outright seek my Snapchat and harass me through there. Especially the ones who jump straight into the weird questions (Lest we not forget the BATHING INCIDENT with a certain user a few months ago.)


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## Kope (Jul 28, 2022)

NaziFurs


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## Smityyyy (Jul 28, 2022)

Kope said:


> NaziFurs


Cue the: “But those can’t actually exist!!”

I don’t think I mentioned this in my original post… but yeah. Nazi furries/bigoted furries in general are so beyond stupid. I see much less than I did back in like, 2015-2017 but I’d love to see even less!


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## BadRoy (Jul 28, 2022)

Finally thought of one.

I hate that conventions (the ones I've been to at least) are basically just for sex and suiters. Maybe it's the circles I moved in but it seems like every time I go to a convention people are scurrying around trying to court as much sex as possible to the point of causing drama over it. And if they aren't doing that they're walking around suiting or attending their friend who's suiting. I have no interest in either of those activities so I'm left to just wander around.

I don't think it was always like this. I remember my first convention didn't feel this way, but it got worse and worse over time. It's no longer a fun, easy atmosphere where I'm hanging around with my fellow weirdos. It feels like, idk, a constant validation hunt with everyone rushing to post every experience they're having on social media.



Judge Spear said:


> Because [furry is] one of the last "pure" things left on the Internet.


U wot m8? It felt pretty pure like 15-20 years ago, but now it's a totally fractured, post-modern mess like most fandoms are. I can barely recognize it some days.


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## Kope (Jul 28, 2022)

BadRoy said:


> Finally thought of one.
> 
> I hate that conventions (the ones I've been to at least) are basically just for sex and suiters. Maybe it's the circles I moved in but it seems like every time I go to a convention people are scurrying around trying to court as much sex as possible to the point of causing drama over it. And if they aren't doing that they're walking around suiting or attending their friend who's suiting. I have no interest in either of those activities so I'm left to just wander around.
> 
> ...


I think Nostalgia warps our view of the past sometimes, yet you do make a fair point of the isolation of modern social media despite the fact furries are more popular than ever now.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 28, 2022)

BadRoy said:


> I don't think it was always like this. I remember my first convention didn't feel this way, but it got worse and worse over time. It's no longer a fun, easy atmosphere where I'm hanging around with my fellow weirdos. It feels like, idk, a constant validation hunt with everyone rushing to post every experience they're having on social media.


I know I didn’t have much interest in most of the panels at the last con I went to, but that was a _me_ thing; when like 50+% of the events seemed to be socials/meet-and-greet type things (ahaha nnnope sez social anxiety), and most of the rest concerned hobbies or interests I didn’t happen to share. I spent most of my time there hanging out at the art tables they’d set up, drawing and chatting with people who sat down at the same table.

I don’t know what cons you have been going to, but my understanding is that some tend to have a heavier suiting culture than others. Sucks that you’ve not been enjoying yourself, regardless. Best suggestion I can make is see if you can find their programs for the last couple of years and see if any of the panels sound interesting to you? If panels are your thing, obviously.

Socializing for the sake of socializing has always more been a furmeet thing in my experience, but… *shrug*



BadRoy said:


> U wot m8? It felt pretty pure like 15-20 years ago, but now it's a totally fractured, post-modern mess like most fandoms are. I can barely recognize it some days.


It was always largely separate groups that occasionally crossed paths, tbh. Don’t know if that’s what you mean by “fractured.” We all have certain things in common, but the things we don’t (or sometimes just the people or places we happen to know) can send us down this or that path.

I was never a prolific user of newsgroups or FurryMUCK (would log onto Tapestries once in a while but haven’t for ages now), and never touched Second Life. I think I might have used Furcadia maybe once or twice. All of those had large, healthy communities, and not all people gravitated to all of them. I think a larger difference is the relative ease with which you can find things online these days (rather than them remaining obscure), and/or more people crossing over so that it’s more obvious these other communities exist.

It’s not like there being a whole load of different art sites with different sets of users is new, either.


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## Filter (Jul 28, 2022)

BadRoy said:


> U wot m8? It felt pretty pure like 15-20 years ago, but now it's a totally fractured, post-modern mess like most fandoms are. I can barely recognize it some days.


Yeah, the DIY side of the fandom felt more pure to me than it does now. At least in terms of creative freedom, and the community was smaller. I can't tell if this is mostly an artist thing or what, but there are people who still care. However invisible we may seem. Many are still around on the fringes, despite not being the ones buying or selling $7,500 YCH commissions. Maybe because we're older now, with careers, families, and other adult responsibilities that limit the amount of time we can invest in the hobby.

I wouldn't say that I'm necessarily nostalgic about how things were. Just that the focus has shifted. In recent years, I found a similar vibe in the maker and indie developer communities to help fill the void. There is overlap, too. My projects might sometimes feature talking animal characters, which I like as much as ever, but it isn't specifically to appeal to furry fandom. Then again, maybe it never was. This is a fun genre in and of itself, extending well beyond the almost "walled garden" atmosphere that we see today.



quoting_mungo said:


> I mean, that attitude is pretty much exactly why women in male-dominated (or perceived as male-dominated) hobbies don’t mention that they’re women. Exact same shit in gaming. Zero sympathy for that kind of guy.
> 
> You’re not wrong that it’s pretty ironic who they’re complaining to, too. Like… I don’t begrudge anyone the odd bit of frustration that they can’t find even a potential partner, but there’s better ways of expressing that than we often see when straight guys lament the supposed lack of women in fandom. (“Why are there no female furries?” is _not_ the least attractive to the vast majority of women, I dare say.)


A number of factors are skewing the perceived male to female ratio. Sometimes, driving women and other demographics away or undercover. Unwanted attention, and unwarranted assumptions, are certainly part of it. Another is the "This is our space, you don't belong here" mentality that some furries express. Sorry peeps, but this fandom is for everyone who likes talking animal characters. Granted, I don't think kids should be here because of the adult content, but I'm talking about adults. Barring extremist types and criminals, who just end up ruining things for others, furry should be welcoming to all. Nothing is perfect, of course, but it's worth aspiring toward.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Jul 28, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Are we just ignoring ace folk now?


Way to strawman. But one can't really figure out they're ace without being exposed to sexual content and going "eh, what? I don't get it." So my point still stands. 




Khafra said:


> While I am on the side of not policing other people's private lives, personal freedom and all that jazz when it comes to porn and anything else, if someone said this to my face, I would throw hands.
> 
> As a person currently in a gay relationship who someday hopes his country would adopt more modern values for same-sex marriage and general LGBT rights, there is nothing I hate more than people who immediately start treating me as hyper sexual or some kind of deviant. Both homophobes and the pride crowd do this, and I'm frankly sick of both sides, because it feels like there is no room in either for a regular person who happens to be gay in either. Yes, the LGBT environment is on average more erotic than the rest of the world. It is absolutely fucking not necessary to be a sex freak if you happen to be non-hetero. Stop pushing this stupid idea. You guys can display your freakiness in bed all you want (within the reasonable spaces for it) and I'll keep on being vanilla. Everyone is happy, my tired, frustrated rant is over, thank you.


Man, I don't know who pissed in your cereal... My point was that the LGBT+ communinity is inherently sex positive, generally as a response to almost all (vanilla or otherwise) acts being seen as deviant. There's no way to communicate this without being overly sexual. After all - lesbian, gay, and bisexual are sexual orientations, not romantic or gender identities... it's in the definition.  Some of it is also routed in this history of the community - when you're damned anyhow, and the bar for a "good day" is no suicides, might as well get freaky. 

Now, you have a wildly different read on the community than me. I have no idea of your experiences, but it sounds like you're still working through some shit.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 28, 2022)

BadRoy said:


> U wot m8? It felt pretty pure like 15-20 years ago, but now it's a totally fractured, post-modern mess like most fandoms are. I can barely recognize it some days.


Pure in the sense that we are largely off the radar of corporate meddling. The splintered nature of the fandom has been a thing since the 90s if more extreme today.
But its at least a product of internal squabbling and quarreling. It doesnt really affect what we can do and say.

We aren't owned by Google or Comcast or Meta or Tencent. We might have a fuck load of idiots fighting over dumbshit they'll forget the moment they log off. But we don't have some CEO over our head putting in regulations that suppresses our expression on OUR platforms to make us more appealing to advertisers. Do you see what I'm saying?

I'll give you an example of what I mean.
I got my start on a site that was built up in a non insignificant part by its nsfw community. It was notorious for its whining and insipid bickering. But we had a great deal of freedom to post our content.
Until one day it was decided to sell us to an ISP that wanted all of that gone to be clean for adverts. And that happened overnight.
I was forced out of a community and lost an audience I cultivated over 4 years because a mega corporation wanted to make money from ads. Damned be the people who formed a pillar of the site.
If you havent guessed by now, that was Tumblr. And I can point to a lot of hobbies, sites, and communities ruined by this same scenario.

Furries are niche and unsavory enough that nobody wants a piece of that pie. Theres no value to them. It needs to stay that way. I'd rather we fight and fumble our way to community conflict resolutions than execs, who dont know us, encroaching on our culture.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 28, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Pure in the sense that we are largely off the radar of corporate meddling.


Are you sure about that?


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## Judge Spear (Jul 28, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Are you sure about that?


We've been using anthro characters to tell stories for millenia. Disney's been doing it for a century.

But this isnt even what I'm talking about.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Jul 28, 2022)

BadRoy said:


> U wot m8? It felt pretty pure like 15-20 years ago, but now it's a totally fractured, post-modern mess like most fandoms are. I can barely recognize it some days.


15-20 years ago your sphere was whoever you could IM. Social media was in its infancy, and society hadn't become the always-on, always-talking, everyone-opining mess it is now. You can't call it more fractured because your perception of it is broader. Even the sex, suiting, w/e at cons might not have changed like you thought, beyond I would say there's more suits now since they're easier to get. Twitter makes it clear that cons are hook-up centric, but A.) that's cons and B.) just because you weren't getting your rocks off 20 years ago doesn't mean others weren't. The "furries do deviant things in costume" is a trope that's existing forever... it didn't just come about recently.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 28, 2022)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> After all - lesbian, gay, and bisexual are sexual orientations, not romantic or gender identities... it's in the definition.


Lesbian especially can (not to speak over actual lesbians here, but going by the discourse I've seen elsewhere) absolutely be a romantic as much as a sexual orientation. While there's plenty of people whose sexual and romantic orientations diverge to some degree, the default assumption if someone says they're gay, or bi, or a lesbian, is still going to be that it describes both. So arguing that they're not romantic is IMO disingenuous.



Ziggy Schlacht said:


> Way to strawman. But one can't really figure out they're ace without being exposed to sexual content and going "eh, what? I don't get it." So my point still stands.


I actually agree with you to a degree that adult content is more or less inevitable in queer spaces, _*but*_ that's speaking about the spaces in a very broad overarching sense (and honestly it's the case in straight spaces, too - sex is a _human_ thing, though individuals can be disinterested). Yerf was pretty damn successful for a long time, for one. Is it not a furry space, or is it less queer than the rest of furry fandom?

There's ace people who enjoy fictional sexual content but have no interest in RL sex. There's sex repulsed aces. There's everything and anything in between. This statement of yours gets uncomfortably close to the "if you've never slept with a [person of the opposite sex], how do you know you're gay?" bullshit that most homosexual people seem to get at least once in their lives. Most of the ace people I've seen talking about their (lack of) sexuality and how they came about the realization cite things like romcoms and romantic subplots in other media, not "I saw a porn and didn't feel anything."

However, there's a far way between "sexual content is inevitably going to exist somewhere in this broad space" and saying you can't "truly be LGBT+ positive without a hefty amount of sexual content." You can designate a space as squeaky clean (and enforce that, obviously, or the point is kinda moot) and that won't make it any more or less queer friendly. Again you're getting uncomfortably close to creepy anti-queer sentiments like "teaching schoolkids that gay and trans people exist is inherently sexual." Not saying you're doing it on purpose, just that there's a resemblance there that's quite unsettling.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 28, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> We aren't owned by Google or Comcast or Meta or Tencent. We might have a fuck load of idiots fighting over dumbshit they'll forget the moment they log off. But we don't have some CEO over our head putting in regulations that suppresses our expression on OUR platforms to make us more appealing to advertisers. Do you see what I'm saying?


I disagree on some of it, because in terms of suppressing our expression and having incompetent management, FA would give any out of touch board of execs a run for their money, the only difference is that their business model *relies *on porn instead of suppressing it, so the porn is safe and creates a layer of toxic warts that "protects us", but it doesn't matter to begin with because FA =/= the furry fandom (and thank fuck for that). There are sorts of furries that aren't particularly interested in seeing intercourse.

For example Deviantart is a much better website for furries of my kind (even tho it's owned by some other company), sure it doesn't allow giant erect cocks (I think there are loopholes even for that tho) but it allows for more freedom of expression otherwise, and much better potential for growth. It's also more user-friendly in most ways. Not to mention, it's NOT geared only towards furries. Sounds like a weird asset to have? I think deep down, everybody knows they would get sick of only interacting with furries. I sure would.



Judge Spear said:


> We've been using anthro characters to tell stories for millenia. Disney's been doing it for a century.
> 
> But this isnt even what I'm talking about.


Lol, but you're not going to convince me it's not geared towards us


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## Troj (Jul 28, 2022)

Ultimately, what I'd like is for everybody to realize is that sexuality is a normal, healthy aspect of just being a human being; a person can be sexual or sensual without it defining their whole being or every aspect of their life; being sexual doesn't make you "deviant" or "perverted" unless you're actively doing or enabling things that harm other people or animals; and the people who "doth protest too much" tend to have the gnarliest skeletons in the closet.

Rather than scapegoating furries as the sole and/or most extreme sex-havers in the entire cosmos, I'd like for society in general to recognize that while the fandom is more open or nonchalant about identities and kinks that might make a lot of people blush, other communities of people are easily just as kinky and horny in ways that are often overlooked or taken for granted. I'd also like for society to recognize that the fandom is a big tent that comprises a lot of different people, interests, and activities, and that the person who hooked up at the con on Saturday or commissioned a sexy art piece on Sunday can be the same person who fursuited wholesomely for charity on Monday.

I'd also ultimately like for more people to realize that furries have been perceived and treated in certain ways historically due in very large part to the community being overwhelmingly queer and predominantly neurodivergent, and that double standard is uncool and deeply prejudiced at the end of the day.

And, of course, I'd like everybody to draw a firm, clear line at activities which harm or exploit non-consenting parties.

Re: Sexual content and identity, I think if you have a community comprised predominantly of people who are exploring their identity and may be discovering or expressing themselves for the first time in their lives or after having endured oppression, repression, or suppression, you'll get porn.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Jul 28, 2022)

@quoting_mungo I'm actually gonna stick with my phrasing here, but not disagree with your points. I appreciate you not reading malice in it - seems folks are already taking the worst possible interpretation.

My statement of "you can't be truly LGBT+ positive without a hefty amount of sexual content" comes from knowing many people who are totally fine with gay people... So long as they don't do anything, you know, gay. Be it as simple as holding hands, or kissing. Once you get to media, we have gay characters but the romantic-going-towards-implied (or overt) sex is still largely limited to hetero relationships. I can think of exceptions, but American Horror Story isn't really mainstream, and The Boys is pointedly adult and intends to "upset". Hence my comment of "hefty" - if you're gonna claim to accept LGBT, you gotta take it all, warts and all. The warts being the sex part, if that wasn't clear. 

You cite Yerf, which I'll admit to being familiar with. WikiFur tells me it was a "squeaky clean" sight - so with that I'm assuming that porn of all flavors was banned. Which inherently makes it equal, and to your point, no less queer. But I wouldn't cite it as the most useful for people exploring themselves.  Also, society itself is not squeaky clean, it's very much X-rated. So from that perspective again you need to accept the adult parts of LGBT+ if you're gonna accept the same for hetero.

To the point of the furry community, it's a group that absolutely lets people explore their sexuality. Intentional or accidental, the porn people draw, consume, commission etc. is letting folks figure out what they want and what they don't. This another aspect of my statement, to let people explore I do believe they need the porn - if nothing else to show "hey you and them can do it too." God knows sex-ed in school isn't giving that. Folks need an environment to either ask, or explore, questions about adult topics. Think about it - Tumblr was widely regarded as incredibly helpful for queer folk until they banned porn/sexual content. To add some clarity, "sexual content" isn't just limited to porn, but rather discussion of toys, how to do things safely, etc.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 28, 2022)

Troj said:


> I'd also ultimately like for more people to realize that furries have been perceived and treated in certain ways historically due in very large part to the community being overwhelmingly queer and predominantly neurodivergent, and that double standard is uncool and deeply prejudiced at the end of the day.


Ffff so much this. Like, we've even had at least one young forum member talking about how they're worried about their parents finding out they're furry because said parents use homophobic slurs in reference to furries. With the current social climate particularly in the US I wonder if fursuiters who do charity/entertain-the-kids suiting might end up having to cut back on that due to safety concerns. Which would be really sad, and 100% related to furries being perceived as queer. 

I know last time I mentioned that connection people were, shall we say, less than eager to hear it.


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## Judge Spear (Jul 28, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Lol, but you're not going to convince me it's not geared towards us


It's really no different from anything else "geared towards furry" dating back before furry even took off to the point it has.
It's more of a projection and thing of meme culture today to say "Zootopia is for furries". 
I'd have to see most of the key staff admit to being furries and say "this was made for 0.0000001% of _Disney's _audience" to convince me.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jul 28, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> It's really no different from anything else "geared towards furry" dating back before furry even took off to the point it has.
> It's more of a projection and thing of meme culture today to say "Zootopia is for furries".
> I'd have to see most of the key staff admit to being furries and say "this was made for 0.0000001% of _Disney's _audience" to convince me.


We can agree to disagree


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## Troj (Jul 28, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> Ffff so much this. Like, we've even had at least one young forum member talking about how they're worried about their parents finding out they're furry because said parents use homophobic slurs in reference to furries. With the current social climate particularly in the US I wonder if fursuiters who do charity/entertain-the-kids suiting might end up having to cut back on that due to safety concerns. Which would be really sad, and 100% related to furries being perceived as queer.
> 
> I know last time I mentioned that connection people were, shall we say, less than eager to hear it.



I had the same thought after seeing more and more articles and hysterical Internet posts pop up about REEEEE CHILDREN IDENTIFYING AS FURRIES AND USING LITTER BOXES IN OUR SCHOOLS REEEEEE, combined with the general hysteria about "GROOMERS."


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## Kope (Jul 28, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Are you sure about that?


Yo Disney is the one who turned many of us into furries so it goes full circle kinda


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## Khafra (Jul 28, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> Lesbian especially can (not to speak over actual lesbians here, but going by the discourse I've seen elsewhere) absolutely be a romantic as much as a sexual orientation. While there's plenty of people whose sexual and romantic orientations diverge to some degree, the default assumption if someone says they're gay, or bi, or a lesbian, is still going to be that it describes both. So arguing that they're not romantic is IMO disingenuous.
> ...
> However, there's a far way between "sexual content is inevitably going to exist somewhere in this broad space" and saying you can't "truly be LGBT+ positive without a hefty amount of sexual content." You can designate a space as squeaky clean (and enforce that, obviously, or the point is kinda moot) and that won't make it any more or less queer friendly. Again you're getting uncomfortably close to creepy anti-queer sentiments like "teaching schoolkids that gay and trans people exist is inherently sexual." Not saying you're doing it on purpose, just that there's a resemblance there that's quite unsettling.


Saved my break time from typing.

I can also attest (though this should just be common knowledge, non-heteros are regular people after all) that gay relations absolutely don't have to be largely sexual either.


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## ConorHyena (Jul 28, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Sure, but you can be a great communicator and advertiser while drawing nothing but stick figures. You still have to be good at your craft at the end of the day, wouldn't say it has nothing to do with being successful.



Depends on where you are situatied. 'good at art' is subjective.

https://explosm.net/ this comes to mind as an example.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 28, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> Depends on where you are situatied. 'good at art' is subjective.
> 
> https://explosm.net/ this comes to mind as an example.


That's kind of like the "Foxes in Love" comic series, in that I think the appeal is more in the writing and comedy. It'd constitute being good at your craft, in a sort of different sense. I imagine it's not a cakewalk to be a good comedian or writer. Takes practice I'm sure. At the very least, I don't think just anybody can just start a comic today and become immediately well known.


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## Foxridley (Jul 28, 2022)

RAM said:


> Sexualized/nsfw feral stuff. The average person would probably be appreciative of a standard SFW feral OC (particularly if it's illustrated in a more cartoonish fashion), but they will be hostile towards a sexualized feral OC because of the latter's close proximity to outright zoophilia.
> 
> Drawing lioness pussies will get you slapped with the doggy diddler label without hesitation but I don't think a normie is going get too mad at a knockoff Lion King OC or something like that.


Alrighty. It’s a bit of a nuisance when people talk about feral art when they mean feral porn. If you take things at face value, which I have a tendency to do, it makes it seem like folks will be called zoophiles for having even G-rated art of their feral OCs.
Though I wouldn’t put it past some people to do exactly that.


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## TyraWadman (Jul 28, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> For example Deviantart is a much better website for furries of my kind (even tho it's owned by some other company), sure it doesn't allow giant erect cocks --



It does though! 
You just cant post blatant porn/groping/bodily fluids


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## Attaman (Jul 28, 2022)

Closest thing I can probably argue to 'hate' about the Furry Fandom is that it has done a _lot_ to tint perceptions online that Art Is Cheap and that Art That Costs More Than Minimum Wage Is Overcharged.

I don't even work professionally in the field but you would not _believe_ how many times I've had to tell people "You cannot just spend $50 on a personal commission and use it inside a published work you intend to sell". Explain that artists in the fandom functionally (barring a relative few) operate under steep discounts for exposure as-is and that if you plan on commissioning art for professional / published material you're probably spending 3-4 digits on _top_ of an entirely different sort of contract / agreement on Terms of Use.

The fandom allows many an artist to survive doing what they love (or, in the very least, typically don't hate) and get their foot in the proverbial door of online marketing, but its prices have definitely Had An Effect on people's perceptions. Bear in mind that this isn't meant to be a jab at people looking to get art at affordable prices (there's probably hella conversations that could be had on that and fandom accessibility to people on lower income brackets / from locales that do not operate on similar economic scales or whatnot).

Only other thing I can really say to 'hate' is people trying to exploit the Fandom's reputation as a welcoming community to engage in predatory shit. Intra-fandom predation isn't particularly _exclusive_ to Furries, but is probably a bit more obvious due to its social nature and it being relatively less stratified than other similarly social communities (like streaming).


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## YAYBANANA (Jul 28, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> 4) The amount of kids in the fandom. I’m sorry… this is my most controversial one. And I myself first joined this fandom when I was still a teenager. But this fandom has a heavy sexual element that is VERY publicly displayed. Not to mention the amount of children who are preyed upon in the fandom. I don’t feel that this fandom is appropriate for people under 18… especially those under 16. No, I don’t think kids ought to be banned/restricted but I _do _think that this fandom isn’t the most appropriate one for kids.


I feel like a lot of people tend to either downplay or try to sweep under the rug the sexual aspects of the fandom in order to improve its image, but it's hard to ignore the fact that so much of it is NSFW and that so many people have joined this fandom BECAUSE of the NSFW aspects. Rather than trying to clean it up, I think it's better to try to exclude people under 18 (or give them their own space), despite this not improving the mainstream's perception.


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## Kope (Jul 28, 2022)

YAYBANANA said:


> I feel like a lot of people tend to either downplay or try to sweep under the rug the sexual aspects of the fandom in order to improve its image, but it's hard to ignore the fact that so much of it is NSFW and that so many people have joined this fandom BECAUSE of the NSFW aspects. Rather than trying to clean it up, I think it's better to try to exclude people under 18 (or give them their own space), despite this not improving the mainstream's perception.


So we make a kidfur site or something?


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## Smityyyy (Jul 28, 2022)

YAYBANANA said:


> I feel like a lot of people tend to either downplay or try to sweep under the rug the sexual aspects of the fandom in order to improve its image, but it's hard to ignore the fact that so much of it is NSFW and that so many people have joined this fandom BECAUSE of the NSFW aspects. Rather than trying to clean it up, I think it's better to try to exclude people under 18 (or give them their own space), despite this not improving the mainstream's perception.


I genuinely think the reason we so much child predation is in part due to how sexual the fandom is. Mix adults and children into a fandom with a _heavy _sexual element and you’re going to run into issues.

Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s anything that can be done to prevent kids from getting into the fandom.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 28, 2022)

Yeah, they'll just change their age. I've done it before. In fact, I'm actually still 17.


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## YAYBANANA (Jul 28, 2022)

Kope said:


> So we make a kidfur site or something?


Actually, yeah that's probably a bad idea because that's just painting a target for predators. Honestly I dislike the idea of children having any online presence in general, but can understand that attitude be frustrating to children since it could make them feel excluded or like they're being talked down to.


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## Foxridley (Jul 28, 2022)

SaltyDog169 said:


> Yeah, they'll just change their age. I've done it before. In fact, I'm actually still 17.


You do realize you can be banned if you get caught lying about being over 18?


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## Kope (Jul 28, 2022)

YAYBANANA said:


> Actually, yeah that's probably a bad idea because that's just painting a target for predators. Honestly I dislike the idea of children having any online presence in general, but can understand that attitude be frustrating to children since it could make them feel excluded or like they're being talked down to.


So what’s the solution?


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## Smityyyy (Jul 28, 2022)

Kope said:


> So what’s the solution?


I don’t think there is one other than to try and keep co-ed spaces PG and keep adult spaces heavily gated. Maybe even with ID as I prefer to know I’m not sharing an adult space with minors. 

We ID check all the time irl and it really does minimize the number of minors that can get into adult-only spaces.

But outside of dissuading children from joining the fandom… not much can be done.


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## SaltyDog169 (Jul 28, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> You do realize you can be banned if you get caught lying about being over 18?


Let's honestly hope that doesn't happen for another 5 months.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2022)

Attaman said:


> I don't even work professionally in the field but you would not _believe_ how many times I've had to tell people "You cannot just spend $50 on a personal commission and use it inside a published work you intend to sell". Explain that artists in the fandom functionally (barring a relative few) operate under steep discounts for exposure as-is and that if you plan on commissioning art for professional / published material you're probably spending 3-4 digits on _top_ of an entirely different sort of contract / agreement on Terms of Use.


Oh god. Reminds me of the person who prints fandom (I know MLP, not sure if they also do general furry stuff or whatever) shirts and somehow didn’t know how commercial rights work, or that it’s scummy at best to expand a print run without paying up. IIRC they wanted full rights for as many shirts as they cared to print.

Yeah, no. You pay for a specified run and if you make more you come back for a new deal.

What’s even sadder is artists coming over from deviantArt being like “furries pay so well.” Oh honey no; dA economy is just even more fucked up.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2022)

I think it's great to see kids and whole families get into the fandom, frankly, and it just means gatherings and cons need to set and enforce clear rules, boundaries, and age guidelines, and strongly encourage parents to, y'know, _be parents_. Each of us also needs to do our part to help make the fandom a safe, welcoming place for youngsters and their families.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> I mean, that attitude is pretty much exactly why women in male-dominated (or perceived as male-dominated) hobbies don’t mention that they’re women. Exact same shit in gaming. Zero sympathy for that kind of guy.
> 
> You’re not wrong that it’s pretty ironic who they’re complaining to, too. Like… I don’t begrudge anyone the odd bit of frustration that they can’t find even a potential partner, but there’s better ways of expressing that than we often see when straight guys lament the supposed lack of women in fandom. (“Why are there no female furries?” is _not_ the least attractive to the vast majority of women, I dare say.)
> 
> ...



I used to see it alot in like Halo 3/Cod Lobbies, back in like 07-2012, and I'm sure it's hardly changed.  The moment a woman was revealed to play a video game, it was like, this mad scramble to get her contacts and all this silly shit. So I get it. It's as stupid there, as much as it's dumb here.




quoting_mungo said:


> To be clear, when I say I don’t see mainstreaming as a threat I don’t mean “let Disney in!” so much as “we’re possibly seeing a degree of increased acceptance/understanding, but I haven’t really seen signs of that changing any major aspects of what fandom is.” Like, I don’t think _any_ group should be heckled or considered an acceptable target. (I also think that furries often overestimate how many fucks people outside fandom give about us, which is part of why I find the periodic “bla bla bla we need to drive this or that group out of town with torches and pitchforks so that the normies will accept us” fucking tedious, even outside of it kinda being own goal in many cases.)
> 
> Fandom needs some degree of parallel social progress with mainstream, as all subcultures should have, but that’s not a matter of conformity. That’s a matter of not clinging on to harmful old norms for the sake of resisting change.


With social progress in parallel with the mainstream, there is good to come from it sure, but, not all of it will be what people want. The LGBTQ core of the fandom, the sex positive aspects about the fandom, the artist culture. It can all have unintended negative impacts from that change. I'm just wary as to if all social progress in tandem with the mainstream will be entirely a boon. So, I guess it really depends on what is on the table for being changed. Of course I'm biased, the fandom was there for me as a questioning gay kid. So, I find alot to like about the early fandom. Not all, no but, it was a very warm community and positive community for me then, as it is now.


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## YAYBANANA (Jul 29, 2022)

My problem is people being hypocritical about what's weird and what should be acceptable in the fandom. Not talking about anything ethically immoral or illegal obviously, but online I've seen many times where someone in the fandom hates and criticizes person for being into [insert weird thing here] while they themselves are into [insert other weird thing here], not realizing to the average layperson both of those people would be considered weirdoes. Even aspects outside of NSFW stuff; for example a person who spends a lot of their time making SFW furry literature, art or fursuiting criticizing or feeling superior to somebody who's mostly into the NSFW stuff, not realizing they themselves would still be considered a weirdo to the mainstream but for different reasons (like how somebody would look at a Trekkie vs a BDSM enthusiast; one is looked down for being a sexual degenerate and the other for having no life). I've actually seen that last part play out a few times whenever the topic of furries comes up in a forum outside of the fandom, and someone who identifies as furry comes in and says that they're basically "one of the good ones" because they aren't into the sexual stuff. All furries are cringe in their own way, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Also just for clarification I can't really speak for furries IRL or at cons, because I've never interacted with the furry community offline.


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## Kope (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> I don’t think there is one other than to try and keep co-ed spaces PG and keep adult spaces heavily gated. Maybe even with ID as I prefer to know I’m not sharing an adult space with minors.
> 
> We ID check all the time irl and it really does minimize the number of minors that can get into adult-only spaces.
> 
> But outside of dissuading children from joining the fandom… not much can be done.


Hmm a furry liscense


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> With social progress in parallel with the mainstream, there is good to come from it sure, but, not all of it will be what people want. The LGBTQ core of the fandom, the sex positive aspects about the fandom, the artist culture. It can all have unintended negative impacts from that change. I'm just wary as to if all social progress in tandem with the mainstream will be entirely a boon. So, I guess it really depends on what is on the table for being changed. Of course I'm biased, the fandom was there for me as a questioning gay kid. So, I find alot to like about the early fandom. Not all, no but, it was a very warm community and positive community for me then, as it is now.


Most of the social progress I had in mind was things like increased awareness of minorities and how to respect them. Increased understanding of consent. Stuff like that, stuff to do with being considerate. There’s probably better ways to word it but social progress was the best I could think of.


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## Bababooey (Jul 29, 2022)

YAYBANANA said:


> My problem is people being hypocritical about what's weird and what should be acceptable in the fandom. Not talking about anything ethically immoral or illegal obviously, but online I've seen many times where someone in the fandom hates and criticizes person for being into [insert weird thing here] while they themselves are into [insert other weird thing here], not realizing to the average layperson both of those people would be considered weirdoes.


Oh my god. This. All the time. I'm so sick of it.


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## Kope (Jul 29, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> Most of the social progress I had in mind was things like increased awareness of minorities and how to respect them. Increased understanding of consent. Stuff like that, stuff to do with being considerate. There’s probably better ways to word it but social progress was the best I could think of.


We shouldn't forget that economic progress can often coincide with social progress but that's a different topic altogether


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## LameFox (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> I don’t think there is one other than to try and keep co-ed spaces PG and keep adult spaces heavily gated. Maybe even with ID as I prefer to know I’m not sharing an adult space with minors.
> 
> We ID check all the time irl and it really does minimize the number of minors that can get into adult-only spaces.
> 
> But outside of dissuading children from joining the fandom… not much can be done.


That's a lot of trust to put in the people you're giving your ID to (or their security). I think it's a bit different showing someone ID to get into a club or something compared to giving them details online which they can store, and often you really have little idea who these people are. They could doxx you, potentially tell the world you're gay or trans or w/e and all the weird things you might be into in these adult spaces.

I'm more in favour of the idea that children should have only limited, supervised internet access, personally. Not even primarily because of finding adult content, everything about being online these days seems designed to prey on people as a source of revenue, legally and illegally. People shouldn't grow up with that.


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 29, 2022)

LameFox said:


> That's a lot of trust to put in the people you're giving your ID to (or their security). I think it's a bit different showing someone ID to get into a club or something compared to giving them details online which they can store, and often you really have little idea who these people are. They could doxx you, potentially tell the world you're gay or trans or w/e and all the weird things you might be into in these adult spaces.
> 
> I'm more in favour of the idea that children should have only limited, supervised internet access, personally. Not even primarily because of finding adult content, everything about being online these days seems designed to prey on people as a source of revenue, legally and illegally. People shouldn't grow up with that.


I mean, if you’re covering up all identifying info aside from a birth date and proof it’s a legal government-issued ID, it is not really that dangerous.

Odd of being doxxed for no reason and via a heavily censored piece of info? Very unlikely.


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## LameFox (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> I mean, if you’re covering up all identifying info aside from a birth date and proof it’s a legal government-issued ID, it is not really that dangerous.
> 
> Odd of being doxxed for no reason and via a heavily censored piece of info? Very unlikely.


The few times I've seen this proposed/done it's not been that censored, but also I'd question the worth of it if it was. Aren't a lot of the things you'd normally do to check for a fake ID kinda difficult if all you have is a scan/photo? What would you leave on there that's enough to be convincing without telling anyone who you are?


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## Smityyyy (Jul 29, 2022)

LameFox said:


> The few times I've seen this proposed/done it's not been that censored, but also I'd question the worth of it if it was. Aren't a lot of the things you'd normally do to check for a fake ID kinda difficult if all you have is a scan/photo? What would you leave on there that's enough to be convincing without telling anyone who you are?


Have you ever had to show ID for online spaces?

I have done it 10+ times and each time the process is the same:

Privately send an admin your gov issued ID with all info except for age blacked out or covered and have a piece of paper behind it with your username and the date written on it. After being checked, delete the photo.

Sure… fake IDs exist and so does stealing a parent’s ID. But there’s a _major _security difference between asking someone to provide ID and asking “are you 18?”

In one situation, it is _much _easier to lie. And like I said, I don’t like the idea of being in adult spaces with kids. It makes me uncomfortable so I prefer to be in places where everyone is ID-verified as those will be the _safest. _Sorry, I just highly doubt fake IDs are running rampant and that a bunch of furry minors are rushing to use their fake ID to get into random discord servers.

And yeah sure I can’t _really _confirm the trustworthiness of a discord admin but I trust them as much as I trust the 17 year old checking my ID at the 7-11 up the road. People who check our IDs and credit cards irl don’t really have a whole lot of thorough background checks either, to be fair.


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## LameFox (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Have you ever had to show ID for online spaces?
> 
> I have done it 10+ times and each time the process is the same:
> 
> ...


I've joined discord servers where people were doing it in a similarly improvised way, but they wanted a photo of you holding it. I don't remember if there were any parts they expected censored, but they were clearly intending to verify the person in the ID was also the person holding it. I never went through with it. There have also been more official proposals over the years in some countries where sites hosting adult content would have to check your ID, I'm not sure how exactly they'd handle that or make people want to use the sites which complied though.

Honestly while that way does sound less intrusive it doesn't sound very effective. As you said, a parent's ID, or really any ID would do in that case. I guess it's fine very informally.

And I don't know how prevalent fake ones are (probably depends where you are in the world) but I guess it's enough for people IRL to check.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 29, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I've joined discord servers where people were doing it in a similarly improvised way, but they wanted a photo of you holding it. I don't remember if there were any parts they expected censored, but they were clearly intending to verify the person in the ID was also the person holding it. I never went through with it. There have also been more official proposals over the years in some countries where sites hosting adult content would have to check your ID, I'm not sure how exactly they'd handle that or make people want to use the sites which complied though.
> 
> Honestly while that way does sound less intrusive it doesn't sound very effective. As you said, a parent's ID, or really any ID would do in that case. I guess it's fine very informally.
> 
> And I don't know how prevalent fake ones are (probably depends where you are in the world) but I guess it's enough for people IRL to check.


Parent’s ID is possible but unlikely. Like, what are the odds a person who comes off as a kid pops up with a 45 year old’s ID lol? I dunno. Generally it’s not hard to see if someone’s younger than they’re claiming to be.

And yeah it may not be the most effective but I’d take that system over just asking kids. Like, come on, I did the same shit and said “yeah I am” to the 18+ question as a minor. All minors do it. I’d rather not be sharing a NSFW channel/server with people whose ages I cannot even be close to confirming.

Fake IDs (as a guy who was a dumbass criminal as a teen) aren’t as common as you’d think. They’re even less common among furry teenagers. It’s essentially a non-issue. Checking for fakes when someone is purchasing alcohol? Yeah, that’s highly sought after. Entry to porn channels online? Not really. 

I just don’t think most people would be going through all the trouble of ID verification if they’re lying or using someone else’s ID, nor would they be consistent with their stories, nor do I think it happens often. Anyways, it’s more secure than the alternative so I just default to that.


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## LameFox (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Parent’s ID is possible but unlikely. Like, what are the odds a person who comes off as a kid pops up with a 45 year old’s ID lol? I dunno. Generally it’s not hard to see if someone’s younger than they’re claiming to be.
> 
> And yeah it may not be the most effective but I’d take that system over just asking kids. Like, come on, I did the same shit and said “yeah I am” to the 18+ question as a minor. All minors do it. I’d rather not be sharing a NSFW channel/server with people whose ages I cannot even be close to confirming.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm not really clear from your original post on what kind of scale you mean to implement this. In a CYA kind of way so some teens don't get into a small group it's probably fine, but if it became the norm to do everywhere I feel like the relative rarity of people willing to fake it could easily change. Right now they don't have to bother, they can just go around the places that do it.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 29, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I guess I'm not really clear from your original post on what kind of scale you mean to implement this. In a CYA kind of way so some teens don't get into a small group it's probably fine, but if it became the norm to do everywhere I feel like the relative rarity of people willing to fake it could easily change. Right now they don't have to bother, they can just go around the places that do it.


Was just meaning that keeping general spaces as PG/PG-13 as we can would be ideal. Then having adult-only oriented spaces be more heavily secured. Places like FA you could never implement this broadly, but adult-oriented discord servers, sure. It’s just better for everyone to be careful who you’re talking to and to make sure not to bring up topics that are too NSFW to be appropriate to share with and around minors.

Nothing broadly could really be done. Not unless a government were to step in and I could not see that going anywhere lol.


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## LameFox (Jul 29, 2022)

Yeah I don't think it's something that could be regulated away without, like, insanely intrusive measures. I kinda wonder if there should be a mandatory class in schools on how to exist securely & safely on the internet, aimed at people who don't really want to learn a lot about it but will nonetheless interact with much of life thru it because that's just how things are now.


----------



## Kope (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Was just meaning that keeping general spaces as PG/PG-13 as we can would be ideal. Then having adult-only oriented spaces be more heavily secured. Places like FA you could never implement this broadly, but adult-oriented discord servers, sure. It’s just better for everyone to be careful who you’re talking to and to make sure not to bring up topics that are too NSFW to be appropriate to share with and around minors.
> 
> Nothing broadly could really be done. Not unless a government were to step in and I could not see that going anywhere lol.


Don’t we already have a flamingo  dictator who runs the forums?


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2022)

LameFox said:


> That's a lot of trust to put in the people you're giving your ID to (or their security). I think it's a bit different showing someone ID to get into a club or something compared to giving them details online which they can store, and often you really have little idea who these people are. They could doxx you, potentially tell the world you're gay or trans or w/e and all the weird things you might be into in these adult spaces.


Tbh I think the least intrusive way of doing broad ID checks for private/smaller-circle  furry spaces (it would get problematically classist if it were implemented for things like FA) would be to accept badges from cons as proof of age. Either a badge from an 18+ con (I know that Feral and Nordic FuzzCon don’t allow minors at all) or a badge from a con where adult and minor badges are clearly distinct would be a pretty good anonymous way of verifying your age and identity - badges will typically have your furry name on them, but are pretty useless for identification outside fandom so not very useful for doxxing. Also viable as proof of age between individuals, I guess.

Totally agree with you that ultimately it should be up to parents and not site/server administrators to supervise kids online, though. Especially as teens often don’t know or grasp the magnitude of just how fucked an adult can be because the teen lied about their age.


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## LameFox (Jul 29, 2022)

I guess the problem then is what % of adults who would join those places actually go to cons? I've never had any desire to do it personally but maybe I'm an outlier in that.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I guess the problem then is what % of adults who would join those places actually go to cons? I've never had any desire to do it personally but maybe I'm an outlier in that.


Absolutely - that’s why I also mentioned that it would be classist to require it for something like FA. It’s a decent, non-privacy-invading _option_, but it’s not a _solution_.


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## Minerva_Minx (Jul 29, 2022)

Can I just hate on the fact that after 6 pages of negativity and psuedo-negativity and kids and sex and underage and @Flamingo jabs (hey, it's a good riff this time) and every other dump done the past oh god i still can't believe i reread those pages

I hate more of us and more in the public don't see the fursuiters in hospitals, a lot of furries are highly educated professionals, and honestly, flaws and all we tend to be supportive, generally decent people who meh the hell out of policing our own like the rest of the planet.

Also, LBGTQ+ are romantic, but I'm not a romance writer and don't know many who are.  I'm also not very expressively creative or romantic in any way.  Just tossing that out there.  Wife and I work quite hard at needling, panicking, yelling, and sometimes smacking at each other before we stop talking, cool off, yell more, cool off more, and finally just get over our own (usually mine) hissy fits.  Love is messy or you're doing it wrong. Just saying my hot take.


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## Kope (Jul 29, 2022)

Hmm


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## Filter (Jul 29, 2022)

I hate having to explain it to outsiders, so I rarely do. Furry has different meanings for different people, some of which defy explanation. I've seen... things. lol

My take on this fandom is that a lot depends on what you make of it. Beyond liking or identifying with animal characters, it's a blank canvas. Lots of room for creativity. That's something I love about it. And there are many smaller communities within the larger community. If you haven't found your niche, keep looking and you probably will.


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## Khafra (Jul 29, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Wife and I work quite hard at needling, panicking, yelling, and sometimes smacking at each other before we stop talking, cool off, yell more, cool off more, and finally just get over our own (usually mine) hissy fits. Love is messy or you're doing it wrong. Just saying my hot take.


I prefer to err on the side of avoiding domestic abuse, so I think I'll pass on physically ""messy"" love.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I hate more of us and more in the public don't see the fursuiters in hospitals, a lot of furries are highly educated professionals, and honestly, flaws and all we tend to be supportive, generally decent people who meh the hell out of policing our own like the rest of the planet.


I can't recall where I heard/saw it, but there was something about how Silicon Valley would be kinda fucked if, like, the furry Rapture happened and furries just up and disappeared overnight. Lots of furries in computing and related fields, many in positions of seniority.

I'm obviously biased (fucking mess was before your time, but it ended with me stopping just short of attempting to OD), but I feel like when furries get into their heads that someone has Done A Wrong and needs policing, they're out for blood. Particularly if one or two influential people (not specific influential people, just a couple of people with significant followings who hang on their words) join in. And I don't care what you've done, witch hunts and angry mobs are never going to be the answer. Doesn't mean everyone sees blowback for doing shitty things, but I'm not sure it creates a good environment if we all try to be our brother's keeper.


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## Kope (Jul 29, 2022)

Khafra said:


> I prefer to err on the side of avoiding domestic abuse, so I think I'll pass on physically ""messy"" love.


Yeah that doesn’t sound healthy


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## Minerva_Minx (Jul 29, 2022)

Khafra said:


> I prefer to err on the side of avoiding domestic abuse, so I think I'll pass on physically ""messy"" love.


In the words of Shrek: Going the right way for a smacked bottom...lol.  We're not abusive or S&M. 


Kope said:


> Yeah that doesn’t sound healthy



I would ask you to stay out of my porn site, please and thank you.  Lol



quoting_mungo said:


> I can't recall where I heard/saw it, but there was something about how Silicon Valley would be kinda fucked if, like, the furry Rapture happened and furries just up and disappeared overnight. Lots of furries in computing and related fields, many in positions of seniority.
> 
> I'm obviously biased (fucking mess was before your time, but it ended with me stopping just short of attempting to OD), but I feel like when furries get into their heads that someone has Done A Wrong and needs policing, they're out for blood. Particularly if one or two influential people (not specific influential people, just a couple of people with significant followings who hang on their words) join in. And I don't care what you've done, witch hunts and angry mobs are never going to be the answer. Doesn't mean everyone sees blowback for doing shitty things, but I'm not sure it creates a good environment if we all try to be our brother's keeper.


Oh, s***!  I  am so so sorry for bringing that up now.  OMG, I didn't know.  Omg, I am so sorry and allow me to apologize publicly for my ignorance.


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## Kope (Jul 29, 2022)

Maybe if everyone smoked weed we could solve everything we hate about the furry community.


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## quoting_mungo (Jul 29, 2022)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Oh, s***! I am so so sorry for bringing that up now. OMG, I didn't know. Omg, I am so sorry and allow me to apologize publicly for my ignorance.


Oh, no, it's alright. I mention it sometimes when the notion that furry doesn't police its own comes up. It's not you specifically, just the general, like... _thing_ of performative shunning that's just... really anaethema to everything I believe in. Because of that and my own experiences it's important to me that it's not something that's discussed without remembering the human cost associated with that behavior. I don't doubt that some of the people going after me earnestly believed what they were told. I also know for a fact (I double checked at the time that I hadn't just forgotten a conversation or something) that there were people who added bald-faced lies to the stories of my supposed misconduct. There was at least one individual who one day said one thing about me and a few days later claimed to have said nothing of the sort. 

I was FA staff at the time and someone literally said, in so many words, that I deserved "the moderator equivalent of the Ol' Yeller treatment." So, um. That was a thing. It's been almost five years and I still remember that verbatim. 

TL;DR: I'm not upset with you and just get generally irked when people speak as though the fandom never gives people they perceive to have done wrong massive backlash.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2022)

YAYBANANA said:


> My problem is people being hypocritical about what's weird and what should be acceptable in the fandom. Not talking about anything ethically immoral or illegal obviously, but online I've seen many times where someone in the fandom hates and criticizes person for being into [insert weird thing here] while they themselves are into [insert other weird thing here], not realizing to the average layperson both of those people would be considered weird



There, but for the grace of the Great Giraffe, go I.

I'm reminded of that comic from the mid-2000s that depicted, I think, gamers, goons, or something like that, and their perception of furries, and furries' perceptions of them, and then, in the final frame, the general public's perception of _both_ as disgusting nerds. 

I think it's more than fine to say, "I _personally_ consider this sussy, gross, weird, or not my thing," and it's absolutely appropriate to draw the line at harmful, dangerous, criminal, or toxic _behaviors_, but yeah, you're right that weirdos could stand to have a bit more humility and self-reflection when judging other weirdos.

Admittedly, when someone's fetishes or their art are sussy-but-ambiguous, that creates a genuine dilemma about the "best" way to respond or react.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> 15-20 years ago your sphere was whoever you could IM. Social media was in its infancy, and society hadn't become the always-on, always-talking, everyone-opining mess it is now. You can't call it more fractured because your perception of it is broader. Even the sex, suiting, w/e at cons might not have changed like you thought, beyond I would say there's more suits now since they're easier to get. Twitter makes it clear that cons are hook-up centric, but A.) that's cons and B.) just because you weren't getting your rocks off 20 years ago doesn't mean others weren't. The "furries do deviant things in costume" is a trope that's existing forever... it didn't just come about recently.


Idk how to post a comment without replying to an already existing one. Can someone show me how? Im new here.

Anyways this is my take

~many furs are very immature and dont have social skills. What i mean is they dont really have much to say or go straight to sexual or non sexual RP. They will block you for the smallest things, like failing to reply or saying anything slightly offensive or  even saying the wrong pronoun by accident ONCE.

~many furs are flaming degenerates. They must have some sort of sexual connection with you or post uncensored art that is rarely straight  its always lgbt. Some furs arent into it that or sexual stuff always popping up on their feed. Its common to see furs dating or being sexually involved with many people and may spread diseases in real life or make others sexually addicted (by sending nudes, or role playing) so the must stay even if the person is very toxic.

~furries seek attention ALWAYS. They must post about their trans/lgbt desires to get attention. Many furs MUST constantly say anything about what gender or thing they identify as. They lie about how they feel or contantly say things like “life sucks”. Very negative and “depressed” a lot of the time. They may even pretend to be so unhappy to manipulate you to give them free stuff or or special attention. I do understand many furs are actually sad and have had bad childhoods but you don't need to constantly complain about it!

~Actual predators pedos and groomers. Im not saying this is a large part but it exists!! Sadly furries are a target to this because many in the fandom are either autistic, have  ADHD, or some sort of trauma or abuse they endured so it’s highly likey they are very vulnerable, even as adults!  Wether you are and adult or a young teen or child, people can trick you into virtual and REAL life sex with them. They use fake real life human pictures to make you think they are younger or look different than they actually do. Kids can be taken away and human trafficked or used for a rape target and they wouldn’t know until its too late. Predators can pretend to be your best friend who is about your age and will constantly be good to you and shower you will love and acceptance until you are love struck. This is a very sad but real thing that happens in the fandom.

~the zoophiles and the cringey art. Some people may say that the human x anthro art is OKAY, but i think it’s disgusting. What if a child sees that? You may think its okay because the two have human intelligence and the genitalia may fit together smoothly but. A child or teen may find the connection of animal + human + sex = good/acceptable . Children lie about their age online all tbe time we cannot truly separate a child/young teen from the internet. If they gotta see something like that at least make it so the species don't fucking mix like that. Even as adults seeing this kinda thing for so long can even open some to abuse their pets.. or even children because alot of drawing have characters contrasts in size making the sex look very painful or even imply a huge age gap! Also vore is a thing. The vore thing can be an interesting touch to art but a very few amount of people may find it as a slow but sure gateway to cannibalism. Even if it wasnt the concept of its kinda weird and many may not want to see it.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> ~many furs are flaming degenerates. They must have some sort of sexual connection with you or post uncensored art that is rarely straight  its always lgbt. Some furs arent into it that or sexual stuff always popping up on their feed.
> 
> ~furries seek attention ALWAYS. They must post about their trans/lgbt desires to get attention. Many furs MUST constantly say anything about what gender or thing they identify as. They lie about how they feel or contantly say things like “life sucks”. Very negative and “depressed” a lot of the time. They may even pretend to be so unhappy to manipulate you to give them free stuff or or special attention. I do understand many furs are actually sad and have had bad childhoods but you don't need to constantly complain about it!



Life truly must be hard for you, it's not like every other community and hobby is the complete opposite and has a straight majority. Imagine being so weak that a sexual leanings upsets you. I'd be surprised if you weren't the same type of person to call for a ban on a video game for featuring content that upsets your sensibilities.

I hope for the sake of the forum you're just some obnoxious kid with nothing better to do than fuck with a furry forum. It disturbs me that you actually have a website set aside for commissioned work. You make it sound like you get PTSD from seeing a fucking pronoun preference in somebody's bio. I don't enagge in that stuff myself but christ almighty, how soft are you?

I don't have too much of an issue with the rest of that, but really. These complaint are ludicrous.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Life truly must be hard for you, it's not like every other community and hobby is the complete opposite and has a straight majority. Imagine being so weak that a sexual leanings upsets you. I'd be surprised if you weren't the same type of person to call for a ban on a video game for featuring content that upsets your sensibilities.
> 
> I hope for the sake of the forum you're just some obnoxious kid with nothing better to do than fuck with a furry forum. It disturbs me that you actually have a website set aside for commissioned work. You make it sound like you get PTSD from seeing a fucking pronoun preference in somebody's bio. I don't enagge in that stuff myself but christ almighty, how soft are you?
> 
> I don't have too much of an issue with the rest of that, but really. These complaint are ludicrous.


Not to me I see it on a daily basis. If you think most of this okay you must really hate real life kids  teens and animals. I actually draw porn and adult stuff but i realy dont need to see it often along with ALL teens and kids out here that are STILL developing. They need to figure out their values in life WITHOUT some woke degenerate bullshit driving them the wrong way in life.

You actually come off as kinda young to me does this not make sense or alarm you at all? You probably don’t understand yet


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Not to me I see it on a daily basis. If you think most of this okay you must realy hate real kids and animals.
> 
> You actually come off as kinda young to me does this not make sense or alarm you at all? You probably don’t understand yet


You're whinging about people being too LGBT in the fandom. It's a stupid complaint. You're whining about the gender identity stuff. Yes, some people do it for attention, no it's not the majority. There's little reason to care. Stupid complaint.

I've also mentioned, that I don't disagree with the rest of your complaints. If you look back at my replys, you'll find that I quoted the two complaints I disagree with. I didn't mention anything else.


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## Bababooey (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Idk how to post a comment without replying to an already existing one. Can someone show me how? Im new here.
> 
> Anyways this is my take
> 
> ...


Not a fan of the LGBT-related jabs and kink shaming but go off I guess.
You come off as a bigoted prude though. Bad first impression.
Let me guess. Pokémon promotes Satanism and GTA is responsible for school shootings?


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Chomby said:


> Not a fan of the LGBT-related jabs and kink shaming but go off I guess.
> You come off as a bigoted prude though. Bad first impression.
> Let me guess. Pokémon promotes Satanism and GTA is responsible for school shootings?


What no not like that. Im just as Southern as Southern can get. I dont mean direct hate i just dont like KIDS seeing that stuff when tbey are still developing. 

I respect the first part if your response but the last part… Really? Im actually not a bigot like that thats very extreme imo


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> What no not like that. Im just as Southern as Southern can get. I dont mean direct hate i just dont like KIDS seeing that stuff when tbey are still developing.
> 
> I respect the first part if your response but the last part… Really? Im actually not a bigot like that thats very extreme imo


Then you wouldn't give a shit if people use pronouns in their bio or are LGBT.

Actually, sure maybe bigot is harsh. I agree, but it doesn't make it any less of a stupid complaint.


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## Bababooey (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> What no not like that. Im just as Southern as Southern can get. I dont mean direct hate i just dont like KIDS seeing that stuff when tbey are still developing.
> 
> I respect the first part if your response but the last part… Really? Im actually not a bigot like that thats very extreme imo


I was joking, but Southern as Southern can get? Uh oh.
I'm guessing you have more problematic views you aren't telling us.


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## Bababooey (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Actually, sure maybe bigot is harsh.


I said they came off that way. For all I know they are gayest pride-loving chick in their town, but that's probably unlikely.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Chomby said:


> I said they came off that way. For all I know they are gayest pride-loving guy in their town, but that's probably unlikely.


I don't really have too much of an issue with your impression. I try my best not to dogpile people and all, but I really cannot disagree more about his stance on LGBT related topics. It does certainly imply things, but I'll let him speak and give his piece.


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## Troj (Jul 29, 2022)

quoting_mungo said:


> I'm obviously biased (fucking mess was before your time, but it ended with me stopping just short of attempting to OD), but I feel like when furries get into their heads that someone has Done A Wrong and needs policing, they're out for blood.



Agreed--ESPECIALLY online.

As a general rule, I'd say furries are pretty conflict-averse in meatspace, but can be incredibly outspoken, combative, and out-for-blood on social media, and this is hardly surprising.

This will lead to furries as a group not confronting a person who's acting creepy or inappropriate at a con or a meet, but absolutely skewering someone online for being a Nazi because they took a selfie at Hofbrauhaus, being a zoophile because they have sexy art of their fursona, or being otherwise "problematic" based on a rumor that's been floating on the wind.

This is hardly just a "furry problem," of course, and it's admittedly tricky to find that careful balance between warning people about bad eggs and drawing firm lines at toxic behavior and inciting pure mob hysteria.


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## ConorHyena (Jul 29, 2022)

I feel this applies to the fandom from time to time.

yes I am just being edgy


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> You're whinging about people being too LGBT in the fandom. It's a stupid complaint. You're whining about the gender identity stuff. Yes, some people do it for attention, no it's not the majority. There's little reason to care. Stupid complaint.
> 
> I've also mentioned, that I don't disagree with the rest of your complaints. If you look back at my replys, you'll find that I quoted the two complaints I disagree with. I didn't mention anything else.


I respect your reply! Thats well thought out and thoughtful the way you out that. I just see the LGBT thing alot it doesnt offend me to the core i would just like to see genuine posts that are about general things. I actually do care about peoples feelings when they decide to live LGBT life style im just so tired of seeing them being sad or valuing the wrong things in life at such a young age


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Chomby said:


> I was joking, but Southern as Southern can get? Uh oh.
> I'm guessing you have more problematic views you aren't telling us.


Actually no that’s basically it. I have a Christian heart and i want to see internet as more wholesome and safe for all people


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## Bababooey (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I just see the LGBT thing alot it doesnt offend me to the core i would just like to see genuine posts that are about general things. I actually do care about peoples feelings when they decide to live LGBT life style im just so tired of seeing them being sad or valuing the wrong things in life at such a young age


I'm sorry, but as long as LGBT+ people deal with bigotry, they're going to talk about it. The worst thing you can do is stay silent.

Also please don't say stuff "LGBT lifestyle." Come on man.
Unless you think being openly cis/straight is a lifestyle too. Do you?


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I respect your reply! Thats well thought out and thoughtful the way you out that. I just see the LGBT thing alot it doesnt offend me to the core i would just like to see genuine posts that are about general things. I actually do care about peoples feelings when they decide to live LGBT life style im just so tired of seeing them being sad or valuing the wrong things in life at such a young age


Ok? So genuine posts would be, things that are not sexual in nature? Or is it merely the discussion of the LGBT lifestyle that you dislike? Why single out LGBT anyways? Is this a religious disapproval? I was raised Christian, but fell out of it, so I really don't know if this is like, the god disproves of gays thing to what have you. But, premarital sex is a sin too, just saying. Why is being gay such a grand sin compared to others? They're all equal in their sinfulness, no?

This is me giving the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you dislike the LGBT lifestyle due to a particular interpretation of the bible.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Ok? So genuine posts would be, things that are not sexual in nature? Or is it merely the discussion of the LGBT lifestyle that you dislike? Why single out LGBT anyways? I was raised Christian, but fell out of it, so I really don't know if this is like, the god disproves of gays thing to what have you. But, premarital sex is a sin too, just saying. Why is being gay such a grand sin compared to others? They're all equal in their sinfulness, no?


Maybe you have a good point heres my take, ill word in the best way I can.

Im sure most sin is equal. You most do the dirty while can and enjoy it but you must do these things with the partner u see marrying (imo). You have to repent sin at some point in your life. sinning is Okay as long you intend to do it less or even give up sin as a whole at some point ( i do think we should enjoy ourselves in our early adulthood and explore)! Im actually going to try to go back to church and even not do sex until i am in fact married. Its difficult but as long as you get married and avoid a whorish life style you're good.

I believe God doesnt hate gays he just doesn’t like the idea or act of it. You can still go to heaven if you repent other sin. But along with lgbt its not the attraction thats bad its the focus on sexuality as a whole and its a good way for young people to start having sex or be promiscuous (which in my opinion is not a good thing). I personally think being not straight or cisgender is the outcome of abuse coming from the opposite sex (scaring young people away from being straight or cisgender) or opening yourself up to LGBT media, movies, cartoons, and tv programs. I personally see LGBT as harmless but the community as dangerous because it CAN ruin a young childs psyche to desire sexual things or identities when not ready for it.


God ADORES human birth and so do angels (from what I believe). Its a beautiful thing (and yes i do believe abortion is okay under certain circumstances but i mostly dont like abortion). Being gay or trans destroys the chance for a new human to be brought to this earth and i guess God doenst like that. Im sure angels cry when opportunities or people being born or people being parents are discarded.

I hope you understand and you really can disagree id still respect your stand point because we all have truama and feeling we cannot explain.


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## SirRob (Jul 29, 2022)

Welcome to FurAffinity Jazefex! *Purrs* You should be able to post without having to quote someone just by scrolling to the bottom of the page. There should be a text box there. Hope that helps! *Flops and waits for belly rubs!!*


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

SirRob said:


> Welcome to FurAffinity Jazefex! *Purrs* You should be able to post without having to quote someone just by scrolling to the bottom of the page. There should be a text box there. Hope that helps! *Flops and waits for belly rubs!!*


Aww thanks *borks and grins*


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

SirRob said:


> Welcome to FurAffinity Jazefex! *Purrs* You should be able to post without having to quote someone just by scrolling to the bottom of the page. There should be a text box there. Hope that helps! *Flops and waits for belly rubs!!*


Aww thanks *borks and grins* *rubs belly*


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## Flamingo (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> ~many furs are flaming degenerates. They must have some sort of sexual connection with you or post uncensored art that is rarely straight  its always lgbt. Some furs arent into it that or sexual stuff always popping up on their feed. Its common to see furs dating or being sexually involved with many people and may spread diseases in real life or make others sexually addicted (by sending nudes, or role playing) so the must stay even if the person is very toxic.


Explain what you mean by "flaming degenerates?"


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Maybe you have a good point heres my take, ill word in the best way I can.
> 
> Im sure most sin is equal. You most do the dirty while can and enjoy it but you must do these things with the partner u see marrying (imo). You have to repent sin at some point in your life. sinning is Okay as long you intend to do it less or even give up sin as a whole at some point ( i do think we should enjoy ourselves in our early adulthood and explore)! Im actually going to try to go back to church and even not do sex until i am in fact married. Its difficult but as long as you get married and avoid a whorish life style you're good.
> 
> ...


Okay, so it's religious. I'll try and keep that in mind.
I don't think LGBT as a whole focuses on promiscuity. It does sometimes focus on sexual identity, sure. That said, I really don't think there is a difference between a straight kid or a gay kid when it comes to sex or promiscuity. Teenagers are just naturally horny. It just one of the many things in life that just are. It's not due to LGBT, it's not encouraging them to be sexual. A horny teenager is going to find porn regardless of sexuality, it's just how it is. I personally am not super comfortable myself with a teenager engaging with sexual content so young, but it's not a sexuality problem. You know as well as I how teenagers are.

So for things you say like this

"I personally see LGBT as harmless but the community as dangerous because it CAN ruin a young childs psyche to desire sexual things or identities when not ready for it."

Sexuality or LGBT is not the problem. Most parents who raised a kid will say the same thing, teenagers are just like that, so it falls on the parent to make sure they aren't getting into sexual content at such a young age and trying their best to deal with a kid that's now entering puberty. And, I'm sure I don't have to explain what happens in puberty. That's biological, you can't blame a biological aging process on the LGBT community. I understand wanting to shield a vulnerable teenager going through puberty from extreme sexual content, but you need to focus your blame where it is appropriate.

Also, I was not abused by a female figure, and I'm a gay dude. I know it's anecdotal, and I can only speak for myself, but LGBT itself is not the result of any trauma. Things just are sometimes, sometimes guys like guys, girls like girls. It's different and uncommon, yes. But, you know, even if it's not your thing, it really doesn't harm anyone and it's not as unnatural as you would perceive it to be .

You would say God adores human birth, but wouldn't he also want the people who are born onto this earth to be shepherded and guided by wise, loving and thoughtful parents? There's a huge issue today with unadopted kids, and gay and trans couples still can raise kids or have kids themselves if they wish to engage in donor insemination.

I think, if you believe in gods plan, that he would have a very legitimate use and admiration for what gays and trans people can contribute too.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> Explain what you mean by "flaming degenerates?"


Sexually unhinged. Not respecting who could be viewing and just saying the most nastiest crazy things that effect society badly. It doenst have to be sexual


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Okay, so it's religious. I'll try and keep that in mind.
> I don't think LGBT as a whole focuses on promiscuity. It does sometimes focus on sexual identity, sure. That said, I really don't think there is a difference between a straight kid or a gay kid when it comes to sex or promiscuity. Teenagers are just naturally horny. It just one of the many things in life that just are. It's not due to LGBT, it's not encouraging them to be sexual. A horny teenager is going to find porn regardless of sexuality, it's just how it is. I personally am not super comfortable myself with a teenager engaging with sexual content so young, but it's not a sexuality problem. You know as well as I how teenagers are.
> 
> So for things you say like this
> ...


I like that response its very well thought out. Thank you for the input. I like hear different Opinions. You can be a very loving parent and tell your child they may not want to be part of LGBT and explain well enough for them to prefer the opposite sex. A loving parent if a gay child in my opinion can cater to their needs and not cast them out becuase if but actually talk them into understanding why it’s important to not change your gender or prefer the same sex. And if that fails then it fails they should love their gay child anyways. If they dont that is very bad and i hate that. If they resist that much maybe they really do want a really long phase where they are gay and have same sex partners or even want to change their pronouns.

I hope this doesnt offend anyone its just my opinion


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I like that response its very well thought out. Thank you for the input. I like hear different Opinions. You can be a very loving parent and tell your chikd they may not want to be part of LGBT and explain well enough for them to prefer the opposite sex. A loving oarebt if a gay child in my opinion can cater to their needs and not cast them out becuase if but actually talk them into understanding why it’s important to not change your gender or prefer the same sex. And id that fails then it fails they should love their gay chikd anyways. If they dint that is veey bad and i hate that. If they resist that much maybe they really do want a really long phase where tbey are gay and have same sex partners or even want to change their pronouns.
> 
> I hope this doesnt offend anyone its just my opinion


I can't demand that somebody raise their parent a certain way, but encouraging your child to repress sexuality can cause a great deal of harm. Generally, I think, parents have to be careful when they raise their child. Trying to mold a child into your preferred image may just let to them being rebellious and unhappy. Sometimes you need to let go, you need to let them develop on their own, and be firm when they are clearly doing wrong or picking up bad habits. Sexuality I think, you need to simply let them explore it on their own terms. It's not good to interfere with that. It can cause many long term issues. 

Parents in general, I feel have to learn to let go and not to mold a child into their image. Be strict when necessary. Not you know, to try and make them repress being gay or trans. Just from the perspective of a parent, that sort of thing is going to cause a lot of animosity and anger on part of the child. You don't want to be one of those parents that ends up being cut out of their life by their child. Do you? Of course not. Try and be thoughtful before you commit to these things, please.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I can't demand that somebody raise their parent a certain way, but encouraging your child to repress sexuality can cause a great deal of harm. Generally, I think, parents have to be careful when they raise their child. Trying to mold a child into your preferred image may just let to them being rebellious and unhappy. Sometimes you need to let go, you need to let them develop on their own, and be firm when they are clearly doing wrong or picking up bad habits. Sexuality I think, you need to simply let them explore it on their own terms. It's not good to interfere with that. It can cause many long term issues.
> 
> Parents in general, I feel have to learn to let go and not to mold a child into their image. Be strict when necessary. Not you know, to try and make them repress being gay or trans. Just from the perspective of a parent, that sort of thing is going to cause a lot of animosity and anger on part of the child. You don't want to be one of those parents that ends up being cut out of their life by their child. Do you? Of course not. Try and be thoughtful before you commit to these things, please.


I understand. I dont think parents should force a sexuality on a child or anything but i think they should try to drive their child in a direction that inst sexual and is for the opposite sex and for marrige God intended that for a reason. And if the child still doenst want that then fine the parent should leave them alone its their life! If a parent deserts or belittles a child for their sexuality it is wrong but they should try to have an important talk with their child on why God intends man + woman. I personally think being gay should be a phase or something you do to experience it then get married and have kids be a good parent and go on until ya die. Its my opinion and I really don’t disrespect any of yalls its just how I think.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I understand. I dont think parents should force a sexuality on a child or anything but i think they should try to drive their child in a direction that inst sexual and is for the opposite sex and for marrige God intnted that for a reason. And if the child still doenst want then fine the parent should leaven them alone its their life! If a parent deserts or belittles a chikd for their sexuality is wrong but tbey should try to have an important talk with their child on why God intends man + woman. I personally think being gay shoulf be a phase or something you do to experience it then get married and have kids be a good parent and go on until ya die. Its my opinion and I really don’t disrespect any of yalls its just how I think.


One could say God made us all different for a reason. You aught to consider that different is not always necessarily sinful or harmful.
We don't hold the same sort of extreme judgment for a prideful man, or a lazy one, or an envious one. Many of those types of people are well respected in fact. Having some flaws makes us human and is forgivable. Maybe being gay isn't so bad as it seems. Just some food for thought.


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## Baron Tredegar (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I understand. I dont think parents should force a sexuality on a child or anything but i think they should try to drive their child in a direction that inst sexual and is for the opposite sex and for marrige God intended that for a reason. And if the child still doenst want that then fine the parent should leave them alone its their life! If a parent deserts or belittles a child for their sexuality it is wrong but they should try to have an important talk with their child on why God intends man + woman. I personally think being gay should be a phase or something you do to experience it then get married and have kids be a good parent and go on until ya die. Its my opinion and I really don’t disrespect any of yalls its just how I think.


Im also from the south and consider myself a Christian.
I have also spent a great deal of time studying the Bible and theology. Nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly define marriage and the verses frequently cited against gay people are usually referring to pedophilia. In ancient times those verses were interpreted as referring to anal sex, and not just gay anal but anal between straight couples as well. There are also some verses that indicate David and Jonathan might have been a gay couple as well.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Im also from the south and consider myself a Christian.
> I have also spent a great deal of time studying the Bible and theology. Nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly define marriage and the verses frequently cited against gay people are usually referring to pedophilia. In ancient times those verses were interpreted as referring to anal sex, and not just gay anal but anal between straight couples as well. There are also some verses that indicate David and Jonathan might have been a gay couple as well.


It does say in the bible non man shall lay with another man and vice versa its in the kings james version. Buuut that is trye yes that did happen but it doenst make it right. Lets put it this way. Humanity cintinues and florishes on man woman relationship and off spring. Gay relationships atr just there I personally dont care but God does and I choose to bot be that way. I would never provoke LGBT just because. LGBT just exists. Its not moral but I wouldn’t destroy anyone coping or happiness. But it does get between your relationship with God and Jesus.  If youre gay or trans i wish you peace.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> It does say in the bible non man shall lay with another man and vice versa its in the kings james version. Buuut that is trye yes that did happen but it doenst make it right. Lets put it this way. Humanity cintinues and florishes on man woman relationship and off spring. Gay relationships atr just there I personally dont care but God does and I choose to bot be that way. I would never provoke LGBT just because. LGBT just exists. Its not moral but I wouldn’t destroy anyone coping or happiness. But it does get between your relationship with God and Jesus.  If youre gay or trans i wish you peace.


I mean, it also says in the bible that judgment of sins is reserved for the lord(god). So is it your place to push so hard against something like LGBT? It doesn't harm your connection between god and jesus anymore than being envious does.

Also, the whole reason the bible condems anal sex is that it is sex done without intent of procreation.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 29, 2022)

Hate to be _that _guy but I’m not sure how much I love seeing people debate whether the existence of people like myself is a “gross sin” in their magical book.

LGBT people are fine, I’m a southern boy too, and pronouns in bios aren’t a big deal. We can all just live and let live and not debate basic human rights. 

Yeah, this is a place to voice grievances, but it’s just a _tad _strange to me that people are openly voicing LGBT-skeptical views. Don’t use religion for hate, God is the judge according to the Bible — so perhaps we should leave the judgment to him. Besides, it’s not like Christians who harp on LGBT avoid haircuts, cloth mixing, shellfish, or any of the other “degenerate lifestyles” as described within the Bible


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I mean, it also says in the bible that judgment of sins is reserved for the lord(god). So is it your place to push so hard against something like LGBT? It doesn't harm your connection between god and jesus anymore than being envious does.
> 
> Also, the whole reason the bible condems anal sex is that it is sex done without intent of procreation.


Thats true. I personally font want to do that buy if its yoir thing thats fine. What im trying to say procreation is a beautiful thing that makes the world go round. If that is done as a minority its not a big deal its not a problme until its done by the masses. As of today it not a huge issue.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Hate to be _that _guy but I’m not sure how much I love seeing people debate whether the existence of people like myself is a “gross sin” in their magical book.
> 
> LGBT people are fine, I’m a southern boy too, and pronouns in bios aren’t a big deal. We can all just live and let live and not debate basic human rights.
> 
> Yeah, this is a place to voice grievances, but it’s just a _tad _strange to me that people are openly voicing LGBT-skeptical views. Don’t use religion for hate, God is the judge according to the Bible — so perhaps we should leave the judgment to him. Besides, it’s not like Christians who harp on LGBT avoid haircuts, cloth mixing, shellfish, or any of the other “degenerate lifestyles” as described within the Bible


True man. I just want people to be close to God but as a minority its not a big deal. Awesome that youre 
Also a southerner. I think its cool that you font straight up hate gays. I respect that alot


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## Baron Tredegar (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Thats true. I personally font want to do that buy if its yoir thing thats fine. What im trying to say procreation is a beautiful thing that makes the world go round. If that is done as a minority its not a big deal its not a problme until its done by the masses. As of today it not a huge issue.


I dont think we have to worry about depopulation. In fact the global population is at its highest then it ever was and its still growing.


Smityyyy said:


> Besides, it’s not like Christians who harp on LGBT avoid haircuts, cloth mixing, shellfish, or any of the other “degenerate lifestyles” as described within the Bible


Very good point. According to the New Testament Jesus did away with the old law, which would make all of Leviticus irrelevant to modern Christians.


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## Miles Marsalis (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> It does say in the bible non man shall lay with another man and vice versa its in the kings james version. Buuut that is trye yes that did happen but it doenst make it right. Lets put it this way. Humanity cintinues and florishes on man woman relationship and off spring. Gay relationships atr just there I personally dont care but God does and I choose to bot be that way. I would never provoke LGBT just because. LGBT just exists. Its not moral but I wouldn’t destroy anyone coping or happiness. But it does get between your relationship with God and Jesus.  If youre gay or trans i wish you peace.


If you're intent on obeying the word of the Lord to the letter, do you think someone should be killed for not following it?

Like straight up.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> True man. I just want people to be close to God but as a minority its not a big deal. Awesome that youre
> Also a southerner. I think its cool that you dont straight up hate gays. I respect that alot





Miles Marsalis said:


> If you're intent on obeying the word of the Lord to the letter, do you think someone should be killed for not following it?
> 
> Like straight up.


No. To latege extmat like atrue santanist yes. Tryly evik who kill or take advantage of other for pleasure should not exist. But they should deserve  Chance to make it up give it all to good and goodness. But if not they should be dead because they are harming humanity or a LARGE scale


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> I dont think we have to worry about depopulation. In fact the global population is at its highest then it ever was and its still growing.


That whole be fruitful and multiply thing too. You know the encouragement of reproducing and all. That's old testament, so that isn't even expected of modern Christians, IIRC. Even then, I believe the only reason that was in the old testament was due to the environment. You know, thousands of years ago, death during childbirth, child mortality and all that. It was a big deal. The life expectancy of the average person was rather low then. That is not at all comparable to life in a first world country where the likelihood of dying as a child is immeasurably lower. An 80 average life expectancy dwarfs a 20 ish year life expectancy.


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## Baron Tredegar (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> That whole be fruitful and multiply thing too. You know the encouragement of reproducing and all. That's old testmant, so that isn't even expected of modern Christians, IIRC. Even then, I beleive the only reason that was in the old testmant was due to the encironment. You know, thousands of years ago, death during childbrith, child mortality and all that. It was a big deal. The life expectanty of the average perso nwas rather low then. That is not at all compaoirable ti life in a first world country where the likelyhood of dying as a child is immesurably lower. a 80 average life expectancy dwarfs a 20 ish year life expectancy.


Exactly, essentially being a nomadic tribe there was an extremely high chance that the ancient Israelites could have been annihilated very easily.


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## Miles Marsalis (Jul 29, 2022)

So this was the response I was typing:

"Nothing, but metaphorical crickets. Huh.

I ask because, guess what? If your answer to that question is not yes, which it shouldn't be for obvious reasons, you're technically being faithful to the word of the Lord as stated in Leviticus, which unambiguously states death as penalty for violating several religious laws, several very minor or not crimes in a modern system at all. 

And if your answer is no, then I'd ask why you draw the line there and not discriminating against QUILTBAG people. Because both are bad, but endorsed by the Bible yet in functional society, we don't let those behaviors dictate who we are and how we treat others."

But then you typed this:



Jazefex said:


> No. To latege extmat like atrue santanist yes. Tryly evik who kill or take advantage of other for pleasure should not exist. But they should deserve  Chance to make it up give it all to good and goodness. But if not they should be dead because they are harming humanity or a LARGE scale



Like, I feel like a kindergarten teacher here, but you shouldn't be killing anyone for religious reason at all, no matter how good you think you reasons are.


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## Smityyyy (Jul 29, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> So this was the response I was typing:
> 
> "Nothing, but metaphorical crickets. Huh.
> 
> ...



Genuinely never heard the term “QUILTBAG” before. Huh. 

Anyways tangentially related but I’ve always found it odd that Christians will ignore a lot of Leviticus except when it comes to LGBT folk. In that case, suddenly, it becomes the most relevant holy text in the world. I wish (not really) we would see more consistency on it. I could at least give religious people the benefit of the doubt that their hatred is “for religious reasons” if they truly followed all of those other arbitrary standards, and complained of those too.

Strangely, I never see any “he who mix cloth shall burn in hell!” signs being waved at counter-protests. Hmm… I wonder if maybe these people aren’t being genuinely religious but are instead bigots and then using their religion as a pass so they can’t be criticized. Nah… must be something else


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> That whole be fruitful and multiply thing too. You know the encouragement of reproducing and all. That's old testament, so that isn't even expected of modern Christians, IIRC. Even then, I believe the only reason that was in the old testament was due to the environment. You know, thousands of years ago, death during childbirth, child mortality and all that. It was a big deal. The life expectancy of the average person was rather low then. That is not at all comparable to life in a first world country where the likelihood of dying as a child is immeasurably lower. An 80 average life expectancy dwarfs a 20 ish year life expectancy.


True true. I %100 agree. But what if war hiys and most life is destroyed procreation would cruitale thrm. It may be in the bear future who knows but now it id not problme but THEN it ids . It may be within our life tines. But anyways war can atarte and we apuld ALL be nuked. Just a reality check. But anyways as of rn it is not something to worry aboy. Be gay be straight idc but when we need to produce to recreate humanity we must. It could YEARS from now or the near future . IDK


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## Miles Marsalis (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> True true. I %100 agree. But what if war hiys and most life is destroyed procreation would cruitale thrm. It may be in the bear future who knows but now it id not problme but THEN it ids . It may be within our life tines. But anyways war can atarte and we apuld ALL be nuked. Just a reality check. But anyways as of rn it is not something to worry aboy. Be gay be straight idc but when we need to produce to recreate humanity we must. It could YEARS from now or the near future . IDK


Titillating though it is to watch hide behind faith to justify bigotry and see you absolutely reach for the excuse that the tiny portion of homosexuals not reproducing (lesbians can get in vitro fertilization last time I checked) will doom us, I'm going to point out the Episcopal Church ... condones gay marriages and rights. 









						Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Episcopal Church
					

With an estimated 2.3 million members, the Episcopal Church is open and welcoming of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer community.




					www.hrc.org
				




Reform happens.

That's my piece for the night.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Titillating though it is to watch hide behind faith to justify bigotry and see you absolutely reach for the excuse that the tiny portion of homosexuals not reproducing (lesbians can get in vitro fertilization last time I checked) will doom us, I'm going to point out the Episcopal Church ... condones gay marriages and rights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It will at some point. thats true.


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## Miles Marsalis (Jul 29, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Genuinely never heard the term “QUILTBAG” before. Huh.
> 
> Anyways tangentially related but I’ve always found it odd that Christians will ignore a lot of Leviticus except when it comes to LGBT folk. In that case, suddenly, it becomes the most relevant holy text in the world. I wish (not really) we would see more consistency on it. I could at least give religious people the benefit of the doubt that their hatred is “for religious reasons” if they truly followed all of those other arbitrary standards, and complained of those too.
> 
> Strangely, I never see any “he who mix cloth shall burn in hell!” signs being waved at counter-protests. Hmm… I wonder if maybe these people aren’t being genuinely religious but are instead bigots and then using their religion as a pass so they can’t be criticized. Nah… must be something else


I didn't see this, initially; only after I was getting ready to sign off. 

About the acronym, I picked it up at HRC, but it's a handy catch-all.

Yeah though, Leviticus is wild. 

For example, take the Fifth Commandment, which to paraphrase is honor your mother and father. If you break that commandment, under Biblical law, you can be put to death, because Leviticus 20:9 states:



> "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."



So in extremis, I guess every teenager would get killed for their disrespecting their parents.

And these gems of wisdom of are also in Leviticus 20, which is pretty heavy on religious executions:
​


> And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.





> And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.





> And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.





> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.





> And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.





> *And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death*, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, *when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. *



Also, you can might get the stones for eating shrimp, since consuming shellfish is considered a lesser abomination than homosexuality in the Bible.

It's a trip.


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## Jazefex (Jul 29, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I didn't see this, initially; only after I was getting ready to sign off.
> 
> About the acronym, I picked it up at HRC, but it's a handy catch-all.
> 
> ...


Thats alittle much coming from the Bible . God means that as sin. God intends things foe a reason. But those things quoyed i dont really agree with. Actually dont agree with some things in the bible. Its alittle intense. But some versions beyond king james version is written so it may be not valid or correct.


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## Punji (Jul 29, 2022)

I wish people would try to learn even a little bit about Christian doctrine before arguing for or against it in relation to contemporary concerns and issues.

It is appreciable when individuals are open to discussing it, but it's very painful to read these kinds of discussions sometimes. The Bible is not as cut-and-dry as some make it out to be. It's an ancient collection of texts written by ancient people for ancient people with cultural and religious significance to modern Christians and must be understood as such.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> True true. I %100 agree. But what if war hiys and most life is destroyed procreation would cruitale thrm. It may be in the bear future who knows but now it id not problme but THEN it ids . It may be within our life tines. But anyways war can atarte and we apuld ALL be nuked. Just a reality check. But anyways as of rn it is not something to worry aboy. Be gay be straight idc but when we need to produce to recreate humanity we must. It could YEARS from now or the near future . IDK


The possibility of a nuclear apocalypse, isn't really a great reason to have kids? Try and be reasonable. I hate to presume things but, you do know all writings from the old testament aren't really considered relevant to Christian now right? The old testament was the old covenant and the covenant that was brought on by Jesus.

As far as I remember, there is nothing in the new testament that condemns being homosexual. There isn't really any decent religious reason to be against homosexuality. As far as I understand, following the old testament now, would ignore Jesus's sacrifice. Granted, I am no longer a practicing Christian, but I mean, I dunno. I don't think you can have it both ways and follow both the old and new testament.

If you think your religion condemns LGBT aligned people, I think you need to reexamine things. If you already know that though, then you're just hating LGBT people because it's acceptable to do so where you're from. And, I really don't think it's appropriate to spread hate. Reexamine your scripture and your views, please.  I will be charitable and assume you simply need to reexamine your scripture. Because alot of your beliefs about gays come from Old Testament scripture. even then, it wasn't even anti gay.


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## Miles Marsalis (Jul 29, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Thats alittle much coming from the Bible . God means that as sin. God intends things foe a reason. But those things quoyed i dont really agree with. Actually dont agree with some things in the bible. Its alittle intense. But some versions beyond king james version is written so it may be not valid or correct.


Assuming you're a true believer, which I'm doubting, if you find those interpretations those quotes and laws to be a little too intense or downright evil ... you need to reconsider your faith and how you choose which parts of the Bible to follow.


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## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Punji said:


> I wish people would try to learn even a little bit about Christian doctrine before arguing for or against it in relation to contemporary concerns and issues.
> 
> It is appreciable when individuals are open to discussing it, but it's very painful to read these kinds of discussions sometimes. The Bible is not as cut-and-dry as some make it out to be. It's an ancient collection of texts written by ancient people for ancient people with cultural and religious significance to modern Christians and must be understood as such.


Frankly--
The bible has been used as justification to oppress, enslave, and murder people. My people have been one of them.
As a Christian, I REALLY don't want to live under somebody else's interpretation of the bible. Period. It has no place outside of how you run your household and how you treat other people. Its even why I'm really careful about what churches I step into.

It's irrelevant what you think your bible says when it comes to writing policy, or in public affairs as far as I'm concerned. In the U.S., we aint a theocracy. The Founding Fathers were dealing with obscene laws that imprisoned people for living alone or for (not) going to church. America aint a Christian nation, never was. That was just some shibang that people came up with in the 60s.

I only want to discuss the bible when it comes to theology, history, and spirituality. Thats about it.


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## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Punji said:


> I wish people would try to learn even a little bit about Christian doctrine before arguing for or against it in relation to contemporary concerns and issues.
> 
> It is appreciable when individuals are open to discussing it, but it's very painful to read these kinds of discussions sometimes. The Bible is not as cut-and-dry as some make it out to be. It's an ancient collection of texts written by ancient people for ancient people with cultural and religious significance to modern Christians and must be understood as such.


True. Its been re written many times truth leaves doctrine every time its translated or collected as a new “version” or text.


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## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Titillating though it is to watch hide behind faith to justify bigotry and see you absolutely reach for the excuse that the tiny portion of homosexuals not reproducing (lesbians can get in vitro fertilization last time I checked) will doom us, I'm going to point out the Episcopal Church ... condones gay marriages and rights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


c: I'd also like to add:

Gay men also get serogates-
And trans men can carry if they want to.
Trans women can make children if they want to.

And at the end of the day, we have a whole population problem. The only (ethical) way to deal with it, and often happens in large populations of other animals in the wild, is that you find more rates of homosexuality. In short, we don't need to reproduce. And even by chance we have to because something catastrophic happens, its not like QUILTBAG folx aren't able to?

Like, random person getting on Supes' nerves, try again.


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## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I didn't see this, initially; only after I was getting ready to sign off.
> 
> About the acronym, I picked it up at HRC, but it's a handy catch-all.
> 
> ...


I'd also like to add here that later, more modern translations of the Bible replaced "ped*philia" with "homosexuality". 
The terms are NOT and were never meant to be interchangeable. Sex between two consulting adults has nothing to do with ped*philia.  It's just y'alls book has been tampered with. 

I'd like to add that the very last verse of Revelations has a warning about changing the contents of the bible. Like God's copyright. Some of y'all gonna be in for a nasty surprise...


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## Filter (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Actually no that’s basically it. I have a Christian heart and i want to see internet as more wholesome and safe for all people



If you want the internet to be more wholesome and safe, then look for ways that you yourself can be more wholesome and safe. Setting a personal example of what you value is more difficult, yet more meaningful, than pointing fingers at others.

Speaking of pointing fingers, the people Jesus criticized most were the religious elites. Meanwhile, he hung out with commoners and those who were looked down on in society. His message was one of hope, and he stood up for the underdog.

It's easy to find perceived fault in other people. This is a human tendency, common across all faiths and lack thereof. Maybe I'm even doing it now. If you're a Christian in the personal sense, then you will be aware of a long list of instances where you fall short as a believer. Work on those things, and give thanks for what good you encounter. Personal growth is a lifelong process, and fault finding in others isn't a shortcut.


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## Parabellum3 (Jul 30, 2022)

Most “popufurs” are assholes.


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## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)

PercyD said:


> I'd also like to add here that later, more modern translations of the Bible replaced "ped*philia" with "homosexuality".
> The terms are NOT and were never meant to be interchangeable. Sex between two consulting adults has nothing to do with ped*philia.  It's just y'alls book has been tampered with.
> 
> I'd like to add that the very last verse of Revelations has a warning about changing the contents of the bible. Like God's copyright. Some of y'all gonna be in for a nasty surprise...


It’s weird since there is a long histor of conflating the two, including 50s propaganda warning of the “dangers of the homosexual” whom they portrayed as child predators.


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## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Filter said:


> If you want the internet to be more wholesome and safe, then look for ways that you yourself can be more wholesome and safe. Setting a personal example of what you value is more difficult, yet more meaningful, than pointing fingers at others.
> 
> Speaking of pointing fingers, the people Jesus criticized most were the religious elites. Meanwhile, he hung out with commoners and those who were looked down on in society. His message was one of hope, and he stood up for the underdog.
> 
> It's easy to find perceived fault in other people. This is a human tendency, common across all faiths and lack thereof. Maybe I'm even doing it now. If you're a Christian in the personal sense, then you will be aware of a long list of instances where you fall short as a believer. Work on those things, and give thanks for what good you encounter. Personal growth is a lifelong process, and fault finding in others isn't a shortcut.


Great response


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## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Great response


That's cool and all, but you really need to start reconsidering how you understand your religion instead of just nodding your head. I think you legimtatly need to invest time in better understanding your own religious texts.


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## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> It’s weird since there is a long histor of conflating the two, including 50s propaganda warning of the “dangers of the homosexual” whom they portrayed as child predators.


It is really fucking weird like...
What does two consenting adults have to do with that? No, seriously-
But I think it maybe has something to do with the ancient Greeks and their ideas around that. I'd discuss it but... bleh. No thanks.

I think it also stems from this homophobic fallacy that pathologizes gay (men), i.e. they only occur due to them being abused as children, which... no? Just some foolishness.

I'm more towards the opinion that it's projection.


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## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> That's cool and all, but you really need to start reconsidering how you understand your religion instead of just nodding your head. I think you legimtatly need to invest time in better understanding your own religious texts.


If i dont ill be attacked. I just want to have the peace and state what I believe at the same time. Its hard. Maybe you should try it. Its not easy. If i truly stated what i belive furries will be coming at me left ans right i don't care or have the time to hurt peoples feelings like that. I belive people are obligated to their own opinion. If thye dont we would live a communist world. Who the fuck would want that?!


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## TyraWadman (Jul 30, 2022)

It's wild how many people sign up for websites that support LGBTQ+ people and then complain about the LGBTQ+ people actually existing within the community.


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## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> That's cool and all, but you really need to start reconsidering how you understand your religion instead of just nodding your head. I think you legimtatly need to invest time in better understanding your own religious texts.


I really dont want to fight with you, but that sounds kinda aggressive and uncalled for. I can be nice and considerate to who aren’t familiar Gods word or Christianity. Yeah im a Christian bit i wanst always thT way i was atheist and even trans for very short period. I saw the truth an i want people to either see it or live peacefully with what they believe theyre no need to shove shit down peoples throats weather its religion or a sexuality or life style. They either take it or not. Say it once and not ever again to the same person. Thats how it works.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> If i dont ill be attacked. I just want to have the peace and state what I believe at the same time. Its hard. Maybe you should try it. Its not easy. If i truly stated what i belive furries will be coming at me left ans right i don't care or have the time to hurt peoples feelings like that. I belive people are obligated to their own opinion. If thye dont we would live a communist world. Who the fuck would want that?!


You've been expressing your opinion for the past few hours, nobody's trying to censor you. I'm just asking you to reconsider the current understanding of your religion as it is currently incorrect right now. Bigotry aint were it's at Jazefex. Your religion doesn't cosign it.


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## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I really dont want to fight with but that sounds kinda aggressive and uncalled for. I can be nice and considerate to who aren’t familiar Gods word or Christianity.


I think you need to consider that other Christians are disagreeing with you about the LGBT stance. I don't think this is called for. I'm trying to be nice and patient with you, but you need to realize that this anti LGBT stance is not necessary to be a good Christian.

Also, I've been exceedingly patient with you. I've tried to reason with you rather than immediately call for you to be booted, plenty other people wouldn't have done that.


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## Bababooey (Jul 30, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> It's wild how many people sign up for websites that support LGBTQ+ people and then complain about the LGBTQ+ people actually existing within the community.


Honestly I wish they'd leave. Their bigoted views aren't welcome here.


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## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I think you need to consider that other Christians are disagreeing with you about the LGBT stance. I don't think this is called for. I'm trying to be nice and patient with you, but you need to realize that this anti LGBT stance is not neccessary to be a good Christian


The Christians that tolerate lbgt stuff are Christians. “Christians” that support or dont see a problem with trans or being gay are not of a true church. Fake churches are everywhere. Christians should love all but a true Christian has boundaries and should know gay feelings are in fact a sin not some something to let be as what it is (it is wrong in tbe eyes of god and for good reason). Christians will never harm or target the LGBT group but to help them understand the truth with love and patience. If not they will move on in life because Christianity focuses on good virtue and Jesus not feeding the ego by being “right”. Honestly if someone rejects my concern or care its either  my helping hand or their choice or poison. I dont wanna force anyone to anything. Its not what God would want me to do its his handle handle that.


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> The Christians that tolerate lbgt stuff are Christians. “Christians” that support or dont see a problme with trans or being gay re not of a true church. Fake churches are everywhere. Christians should love all but a true Christian has boundaries and should know gay feeling are in fact a sin not some soet if thing to let as be what it is (it is wrong in tbe eyes of god and for good reason). Christians will never harm or target the LGBT group but to help them understand the truth with love and patience. If not they will move on in life because Christianity focuses on good virtue and Jesus not feeding the ego by being “right”. Honestly if someone rejects my concern or care its either  my helping hand or their choice or poison. I dont wanna force anyone to anything. Its not what God would want me to do its his handle handle that.


Please leave and don't come back. This is a pro-lgbtq+ community. I'm sure you knew that. Please save yourself some further embarrassment and go preach your bigoted bullshit somewhere else.


----------



## ConorHyena (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Its difficult but as long as you get married and avoid a whorish life style you're good.



If god don't like them whores and gays he sure made a lot of them, hasn't he?


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> The Christians that tolerate lbgt stuff are Christians. “Christians” that support or dont see a problme with trans or being gay re not of a true church. Fake churches are everywhere. Christians should love all but a true Christian has boundaries and should know gay feeling are in fact a sin not some soet if thing to let as be what it is (it is wrong in tbe eyes of god and for good reason). Christians will never harm or target the LGBT group but to help them understand the truth with love and patience. If not they will move on in life because Christianity focuses on good virtue and Jesus not feeding the ego by being “right”. Honestly if someone rejects my concern or care its either  my helping hand or their choice or poison. I dont wanna force anyone to anything. Its not what God would want me to do its his handle handle that.


God almighty, it's like talking to a brick wall.

You keep citing old testament teachings like they still matter. What do you not get about Jesus dying for everyone's sins and voiding the old covenant god made with man? What do you not get about GOD being the only being fit to judge others for sins? Your own religion says what you are saying IS WRONG. All that anti gay crap comes from the old testament. Do some damn research for fucks sake. Use your brain.

I think that's the last I can say on the matter. I am finding it harder to be patient with this. If you're not getting the basic fundamental principle about Jesus's sacrifice, I don't think I'm going to make any headway. I don't think anything I say will change your views.

All I will say, is that what your saying ISNT Christian, you're just holding a bigoted view due to ignorance, and poor culturally inherited views. You should be horrified these things are being spoken by you. A true Christian wouldn't be saying these things.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Chomby said:


> Please leave and don't come back. This is a pro-lgbtq+ community. I'm sure you knew that. Please save yourself some further embarrassment and go preach your bigoted bullshit somewhere else.


Nah i stay put i belong here i am a furry. I heard that u have to be lgbt to be furry in my life. Sit down.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> God almighty, it's like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> You keep citing old testament teachings like they still matter. What do you not get about Jesus dying for everyone's sins and voiding the old covenant god made with man? What do you not get about GOD being the only being fit to judge other for sins? Your own religion says what you are saying IS WRONG. All that anti gay crap comes from the old testament. Do some damn research for fucks sake. Use your brain.
> 
> ...


Thats New Testament its satanic overly accepting thinking. You do realize satan is the most accepting person in a bad way. Idk u know it but souther church is a lot different than the ones up north and west.


----------



## LameFox (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> ~many furs are very immature and dont have social skills.


Noted.


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Nah i stay put i belong here i am a furry. I heard that u have to be lgbt to be furry in my life. Sit down.


Oh I know you don't have to be lgbtq+ to be a furry. I'm a cis straight person. 
Anyway have fun getting banned. You won't be tolerated.


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

That funny moment when someone who’s a _furry _wants to talk about things being “unnatural”


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Thats New Testament its satanic overly accepting thinking. You do realize satan is the most accepting person in a bad way. Idk u know it but souther church is a lot different than the ones up north and west.


Did you just call the New Testament satanic?


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Thats New Testament its satanic overly accepting thinking. You do realize satan is the most accepting person in a bad way. Idk u know it but souther church is a lot different than the ones up north and west.


I'm sorry. Are you telling me that the teachings of Jesus are satanic? Fucking what?


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Chomby said:


> Oh I know you don't have to be lgbtq+ to be a furry. I'm a cis straight person.
> Anyway have fun getting banned. You won't be tolerated.


I wont be because im not cussing at or truly abusing people. Im just stating my thoughts as they are.


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

You know, I knew this thread would have some twists and turns, but I didn't think I'd hear somebody who considers themself a Christian call the teachings of Jesus Christ satantic.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm sorry. Are you telling me that the teaching of Jesus are satanic? Fucking what?


No. You misunderstanding what im saying. Jesus has never done that. Im saying Lucifer accepts everything because hes chaos. ~_~ face palm*


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> No. You misunderstanding what im saying. Jesus has never done that. Im saying Lucifer accepts everything because hes chaos. ~_~ face palm*


That doesn't exactly refute the point about the New Testament voiding the Old Testament, Jazefex.


----------



## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)




----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> No. You misunderstanding what im saying. Jesus has never done that. Im saying Lucifer accepts everything because hes chaos. ~_~ face palm*


Satan has 0 power in this universe. According to the New Testament Satan lost all his power when Jesus was crucified. Attributing a great deal of power to satan begins getting very gnostic.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> That doesn't exactly refute the point about the New Testament voiding the Old Testament, Jazefex.


Read kings james bible. Please stop responding. Not to be mean i dont want drama please go out  have fun do something productive. Im tired man,  peace be with you


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Read kings james bible. Please stop responding. Not to be mean i dont want drama please go out  have fun do something productive. Im tired man,  peace be with you


My dude, you might want to take your own advice. Read the scripture. Like, I'm sorry dude, but you don't get a free pass to spread misinformation that could give a pass to hateful beliefs. It's not going to fly. Better yet, read Baron's last reply.


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## Baron Tredegar (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Read kings james bible. Please stop responding. Not to be mean i dont want drama please go out  have fun do something productive. Im tired man,  peace be with you


I have the King James Bible. I was raised on it. I have read it front to back. I have studied it and meditated on it. After that I looked at the writings of the early christians and the Church Fathers. 
If you dont mind me asking, have you ever sat down and actually read through the entire Bible? Front to back, just on your own, with no preacher or study guide to interpret it for you?


----------



## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)

This debate is heated enough to pop its own popcorn.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> My dude, you might want to take your own advice. Read the scripture. Like, I'm sorry dude, but you don't get a free pass to spread misinformation that could give a pass to bigoted behavior. It's not going to fly. Better yet, read Baron's last reply.


Okay then ? Again im just going pretend this thread doesn’t exist because im done lol


----------



## Kara Kusa (Jul 30, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> This debate is heated enough to pop its own popcorn.


*roasts marshmallows over thread*
want one?


----------



## Parabellum3 (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Read kings james bible. Please stop responding. Not to be mean i dont want drama please go out  have fun do something productive. Im tired man,  peace be with you


You've yet to prove God even exists in the first place. Otherwise ya'll just using their image as a way out to express derogatory ideals.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> I have the King James Bible. I was raised on it. I have read it front to back. I have studied it and meditated on it. After that I looked at the writings of the early christians and the Church Fathers.
> If you dont mind me asking, have you ever sat down and actually read through the entire Bible? Front to back, just on your own, with no preacher or study guide to interpret it for you?


I skimmed it but it was definitely frim king hanes version. Im at tbe begginging and read many bible verses on a bible app


Kara Kusa said:


> *roasts marshmallows over thread*
> want one?


thats actually funny and clever haha


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I skimmed it but it was definitely frim king hanes version. Im at tbe begginging and read many bible verses on a bible app
> 
> thats actually funny and clever haha


You skimmed the bible and you're at the beginning. Just wow.


----------



## Parabellum3 (Jul 30, 2022)

Also this debate points out another flaw in the fandom, religious extremists.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Parabellum3 said:


> Also this debate points out another flaw in the fandom, religious extremists.


I agree. Im libertarian


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> You skimmed the bible and you're at the beginning. Just wow.


Yup lol. Im very persistent about my decision to be a real Christian. Its been recent but i do understand what is right and wrong i assure you


----------



## LameFox (Jul 30, 2022)

I reckon the beginning of a book is a bit early to talk about persistence.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

LameFox said:


> I reckon the beginning of a book is a bit early to talk about persistence.


True but im willing to read it cover to cover in the near future i plan on get baptized


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I agree. Im libertarian




Another fandom flaw, libertarians

:v


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Yup lol. Im very persistent about my decision to be a real Christian. Its been recent but i do understand what is right and wrong i assure you


Should probably read the whole thing before deciding what it means to be a Christian.

Just, you know. Throwing it out there.


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Should probably read the whole thing before deciding what it means to be a Christian.
> 
> Just a helpful tip.


Why? It’s easier to just use the Bible as an excuse for bigotry. If someone were to _actually _read it, they might have to genuinely practice what it preaches!


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> I skimmed it but it was definitely frim king hanes version. Im at tbe begginging and read many bible verses on a bible app
> 
> thats actually funny and clever haha


Thats good, just keep reading it. Dont get bogged down by the genealogies and lists. You will  come across stories and passages you will have never heard taught by the preachers.
There are also better translations out there if you want more modern wording without 17th century wording. 

There were several things God commands in the Bible that made me sick. Jephtahs daughter, and the Midianite virgins being two of them


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Should probably read the whole thing before deciding what it means to be a Christian.
> 
> Just a helpful tip.


[jazefex is not responding to you]


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Thats good, just keep reading it. Dont get bogged down by the genealogies and lists. You will  come across stories and passages you will have never heard taught by the preachers.
> There are also better translations out there if you want more modern wording without 17th century wording.
> 
> There were several things God commands in the Bible that made me sick. Jephtahs daughter, and the Midianite virgins being two of them


Thanks man. You sound like a true Christian and mean well. I appreciate that


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Hahahaha. Oh man. What did I get myself into?


----------



## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Hahahaha. Oh man. What did I get myself into?


A late-night religious debate on a furry forum.


----------



## LameFox (Jul 30, 2022)

A "libertarian" complaining about people having consensual sex and drawing stuff they don't like is a bit of a new experience for me. Maybe that means something else these days...


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

LameFox said:


> A "libertarian" complaining about people having consensual sex and drawing stuff they don't like is a bit of a new experience for me. Maybe that means something else these days...


We call those: Lolbertarians


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Thanks man. You sound like a true Christian and mean well. I appreciate that


I just try my best to be a good person. Not really sure if I would consider myself a Christian, more of a Deist.

I will warn you, I have watched people who start out with the views that you have, good people that ive cared for, get manipulated and twisted into nothing but pure hatred. I hope my words dont fall on deaf ears and that you can avoid their fate.


----------



## JozeffTech (Jul 30, 2022)

Sorry to interfere, but I have something to say.
You know what I hate the most?
The modern form of ostracism. When just because of one tiny little thing, often not even confirmed, society just gangs up on one and beats him to depression and sometimes even suicide. And the worst thing is that they don't even bother to investigate - they attack immediately.


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> A late-night religious debate on a furry forum.


Thanks for calling in to the Furries4Jesus Podcast Ridley. We'll be sure to send you a complimentary WWJD T shirt.


----------



## Jazefex (Jul 30, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> I just try my best to be a good person. Not really sure if I would consider myself a Christian, more of a Deist.
> 
> I will warn you, I have watched people who start out with the views that you have, good people that ive cared for, get manipulated and twisted into nothing but pure hatred. I hope my words dont fall on deaf ears and that you can avoid their fate.


Of course i will keep those words dear to me i will never let that happen. Ever.


----------



## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)

KimberVaile said:


> Thanks for calling in to the Furries4Jesus Podcast Ridley. We'll be sure to send you a comlientary WWJD T shirt.


Thank you. I shall do…
something in my slightly drunken state.


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> What no not like that. Im just as Southern as Southern can get. I dont mean direct hate i just dont like KIDS seeing that stuff when tbey are still developing.
> 
> I respect the first part if your response but the last part… Really? Im actually not a bigot like that thats very extreme imo


Oh Jesus help him. Look kids deserve to know what exists in the world including Gay people, and certain studies show that when they get education on subjects of how their body operates they are less likely to be raped/ sexualy abused by their family.


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> Oh Jesus help him. Look kids deserve to know what exists in the world including Gay people, and certain studies show that when they get education on subjects of how their body operates they are less likely to be raped/ sexualy abused by their family.





			https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjTy63AjKD5AhU-D0QIHWuzCZYQFnoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jahonline.org%2Farticle%2FS1054-139X(20)30456-0%2Ffulltext&usg=AOvVaw0y8IY2TK4v64eMTHD4vdGq
		



Outcomes include appreciation of sexual diversity, dating and intimate partner violence prevention, development of healthy relationships, prevention of child sex abuse, improved social/emotional learning, and increased media literacy. Substantial evidence supports sex education beginning in elementary school, that is scaffolded and of longer duration, as well as LGBTQ–inclusive education across the school curriculum and a social justice approach to healthy sexuality.


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Jazefex said:


> Thanks man. You sound like a true Christian and mean well. I appreciate that


God says love all people so I try to


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjTy63AjKD5AhU-D0QIHWuzCZYQFnoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jahonline.org%2Farticle%2FS1054-139X(20)30456-0%2Ffulltext&usg=AOvVaw0y8IY2TK4v64eMTHD4vdGq
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some studies have found up to a 50% reduction in child sexual abuse when starting (age appropriate) sexual education young.

Turns out, teaching kids about their bodies and what is/isn’t appropriate actually saves children from being groomed and abused. So weird how that works, lol.


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Some studies have found up to a 50% reduction in child sexual abuse when starting (age appropriate) sexual education young.
> 
> Turns out, teaching kids about their bodies and what is/isn’t appropriate actually saves children from being groomed and abused. So weird how that works, lol.


That's why a lot of religions that marry off children early (it happens in the US too) don't like it


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> That's why a lot of religions that marry off children early (it happens in the US too) don't like it



I wonder if there’s a connection between fear-mongering about sexual education and the fact that it’s done by groups with the _highest _rates of sexual abuse toward children.

Hmmmmm…. so weird!!


----------



## ConorHyena (Jul 30, 2022)

Here I am actually contributing something sensible to this thread



Jazefex said:


> Yup lol. Im very persistent about my decision to be a real Christian. Its been recent but i do understand what is right and wrong i assure you



There's a very core principle of christian faith I think you need to investigate more - humility. It's the opposite of pride (which the catholics consider one of the seven deadly sins, and I feel which has been present in this thread for some time)

Pride leads to disgrace and humility leads to wisdom, and as Jesus has mentioned himself, he who is without sin may cast the first stone. 

Don't judge too much. That be, as far as I am informed, up to the big bossman.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 30, 2022)

Chomby said:


> I was joking, but Southern as Southern can get? Uh oh.
> I'm guessing you have more problematic views you aren't telling us.


Careful everyone here comes the inquisition


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 30, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> I wonder if there’s a connection between fear-mongering about sexual education and the fact that it’s done by groups with the _highest _rates of sexual abuse toward children.
> 
> Hmmmmm…. so weird!!


You of all people complaining about fear-mongering?


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You of all people complaining about fear-mongering?


What’re you on about today, Frank? So early in the morning too… tsk tsk.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 30, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> What’re you on about today, Frank? So early in the morning too… tsk tsk.


You know, the earth is round and subsequently there's more than one timezone in the world


----------



## Yakamaru (Jul 30, 2022)

Don't really hate it, but find weird.

Random people sending you "Hi" with no additional info whatsoever. Not even "Hi, you don't know me but I found your art on FurAffinity and found it cute", or something along those lines. You know, as a conversation starter and implying a reason of why you contacted me outta the blue.


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You know, the earth is round and subsequently there's more than one timezone in the world


Wow thanks for telling me, I had no idea. Such a smart guy you are 

Have a good day!


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 30, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Wow thanks for telling me, I had no idea. Such a smart guy you are
> 
> Have a good day!


You're welcome, enjoy
And thanks, you too


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Careful everyone here comes the inquisition


Dude you're literally _French_


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> Dude you're literally _French_


?


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> ?


I'm not gonna explain the joke, but look up the French Revolution and you'll learn more about our people's history.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 30, 2022)

Kope said:


> I'm not gonna explain the joke, but look up the French Revolution and you'll learn more about our people's history.


I currently have no plan of chopping off the Burger King's head if that's what you're implying.


----------



## Flamingo (Jul 30, 2022)

One of these rare times I'll give my opinion. This is not FA's position. The core tenant of Christianity is love. A loving God and damning people for something they didn't choose is incompatible. If I'm wrong, I'll find out when I die and boy that'd suck. Until then, I (we, collectively) don't need someone pontificating thinly veiled hatred in the name of faith.

As an administrator, and this is FA's position: naw dog. Naw.


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I currently have no plan of chopping off the Burger King's head if that's what you're implying.


Lol I used to work there


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> One of these rare times I'll give my opinion. This is not FA's position. The core tenant of Christianity is love. A loving God and damning people for something they didn't choose is incompatible. If I'm wrong, I'll find out when I die and boy that'd suck. Until then, I (we, collectively) don't need someone pontificating thinly veiled hatred in the name of faith.
> 
> As an administrator, and this is FA's position: naw dog. Naw.


If Gay people are sent to hell then I'm sure as heaven gonna argue with God until he reverses that decision. (And you guys know how I get in a debate)


----------



## SirRob (Jul 30, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> One of these rare times I'll give my opinion. This is not FA's position. The core tenant of Christianity is love. A loving God and damning people for something they didn't choose is incompatible. If I'm wrong, I'll find out when I die and boy that'd suck. Until then, I (we, collectively) don't need someone pontificating thinly veiled hatred in the name of faith.
> 
> As an administrator, and this is FA's position: naw dog. Naw.


I haven’t been following the conversation (because it’d make my brain melt) but one thing I’ve heard on the topic is that being gay is a sort of trial. One can’t choose to be gay but one can choose to have sex. Of course premarital sex and masturbation are also sins.


----------



## Troj (Jul 30, 2022)

The Bible's various prohibitions, admonitions, and cautionary parables related to heterosexual sin easily outnumber the references to same-sex activity _at least_ a hundred to one. Given that, one could argue that it's the hets who have to carefully monitor and control their "sin nature!"

Not to mention, even the _idea _of sexual orientation didn't come into fruition until the late 1800s. Prior to that, sex was just something you _did. _The notion that the Bible has anything to say about "gay people" is a modern projection onto the text.

It is extremely telling to say the least that evangelicals in particular are willing to embrace Christians who are sexual or financial predators, who have shamelessly and openly sought worldly power, whose prayers and rituals are performative and tacky, who engage in blatant idolatry, and who openly and proudly exploit and abuse the poor and the suffering, but Christians who are pro-LGBTQ are "not real Christians."

From my point of view, our society would be_ much_ healthier if megachurch pastors who brag about their lavish vacations or Christians who oppose welfare programs for the needy were treated with _half_ as much derision as pro-LGBTQ Christians are treated currently.


----------



## Kumali (Jul 30, 2022)

Troj said:


> The Bible's various prohibitions, admonitions, and cautionary parables related to heterosexual sin easily outnumber the references to same-sex activity _at least_ a hundred to one. Given that, one could argue that it's the hets who have to carefully monitor and control their "sin nature!"
> 
> Not to mention, even the _idea _of sexual orientation didn't come into fruition until the late 1800s. Prior to that, sex was just something you _did. _The notion that the Bible has anything to say about "gay people" is a modern projection onto the text.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this. It seems to me that what we have in this thread is someone hiding behind a long-discredited book of myths and lies (which they've admitted they haven't even read in full) to justify their own homophobic bigotry and unhealthy views of human sexuality, rather than at least being honest and owning all that as theirs. Unfortunately that sort of deflection of personal responsibility for one's own bigotries seems fairly typical of Christianity.

But I'd go further even than @Troj: I maintain that Christianity itself has _always_ been a religion of fear, threats, selfishness and hate, and that modern-day evangelicals have only ripped the mask away to reveal the poison that the religion has always been. (Disclaimer: I grew up Christian, and even in a relatively benign denomination I was exposed to plenty of the propaganda. In today's hate-fueled evangelical movement I only see the logical extreme of what Christianity has always taught, rather than any kind of anomaly.)

As luck would have it, one of my favorite atheistic bloggers just posted this today:



			https://www.patreon.com/posts/religious-right-69639709
		


And as for the Bible being any kind of guide to morality (or any kind of reliable historic record, for that matter), I'll just leave this here for everyone's perusal:






						Evil Bible .com – Fighting Against Immorality in Religion
					






					www.evilbible.com


----------



## Kumali (Jul 30, 2022)

Flamingo said:


> A loving God and damning people for something they didn't choose is incompatible.



Exactly. That's why the god that Christians worship, or claim to worship, is not a loving god. If love is the highest and most powerful form of energy - and I happen to believe that it is - then in order to find the sort of transcendence that only a pure, high love can offer, one must look somewhere other than in Christianity.


----------



## Troj (Jul 30, 2022)

An extremely strong case can be made for Christianity being an extremely revolutionary, egalitarian, progressive religion, _at least on paper_. I reckon a lot of modern-day Christians would gleefully crucify the actual Biblical Jesus today for being a dirty commie who excuses "sin."

But, inevitably, humans gonna human, and humans have trouble resisting the impulse to amass power and wealth and make decrees about who's In and who's Out.

I certainly agree about fundagelicals going mask-off in recent years, and no longer hiding or softpedaling their true agendas and feelings. I also agree that people largely use the Bible to justify their own preexisting tastes, beliefs, opinions, and biases, because the content of the Bible can be used to argue or support_ a lot_ of different things, especially if you don't care about little things like context.


----------



## Flamingo (Jul 30, 2022)

Kumali said:


> Exactly. That's why the god that Christians worship, or claim to worship, is not a loving god. If love is the highest and most powerful form of energy - and I happen to believe that it is - then in order to find the sort of transcendence that only a pure, high love can offer, one must look somewhere other than in Christianity.


I'm not debating theology with you. Not my place as a staffer. 

As a general comment, participants in the thread need to be careful not to cross into bashing other people's faith writ large. Telling that fellow he was silly is one thing, but don't let it devolve.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

ConorHyena said:


> If god don't like them whores and gays he sure made a lot of them, hasn't he?


I know right? 
God made em more fun to be around too, usually. Have you seen Paris is Burning? Like, omg-


----------



## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Troj said:


> An extremely strong case can be made for Christianity being an extremely revolutionary, egalitarian, progressive religion, _at least on paper_. I reckon a lot of modern-day Christians would gleefully crucify the actual Biblical Jesus today for being a dirty commie who excuses "sin."
> 
> But, inevitably, humans gonna human, and humans have trouble resisting the impulse to amass power and wealth and make decrees about who's In and who's Out.
> 
> I certainly agree about fundagelicals going mask-off in recent years, and no longer hiding or softpedaling their true agendas and feelings. I also agree that people largely use the Bible to justify their own preexisting tastes, beliefs, opinions, and biases, because the content of the Bible can be used to argue or support_ a lot_ of different things, especially if you don't care about little things like context.


Correct. That is the PRIMARY reason I don't need to be living under [somebody's] bible. 

Its one thing to be wrong.
Its another thing to be wrong and convince people they're going to hell because you suck. Its horrible. Why don't you just go be wrong off in the corner somewhere--

Jesus said something about exactly this. These self-appointed, self-righteous people are a problem and it literally took Jesus coming down to tell them about themselves.


----------



## LameFox (Jul 30, 2022)

Not sure if this is typically part of christianity but in scripture classes in my school they told me god was all-knowing. I figure then he's okay with pretty much everything that arises from his creations, for better or worse, else knowing how that would turn out he'd've made them differently.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

LameFox said:


> Not sure if this is typically part of christianity but in scripture classes in my school they told me god was all-knowing. I figure then he's okay with pretty much everything that arises from his creations, for better or worse, else knowing how that would turn out he'd've made them differently.


God's cool with it until you start hurting other people--


----------



## KimberVaile (Jul 30, 2022)

Unfortunate that this person will likely always practice their religion believing that bigotry is necessary in practicing it. I had hoped she might have listened to reason, but seemed quite unwilling to accept that their beliefs were incorrect interpretations of their religion.
Life goes on though; all the patience in the world wouldn't have made a difference.

Education is the salve to ignorance and hate, but only to those who will listen.


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 30, 2022)

The bigot was banned? The bigot was banned!!


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 30, 2022)

What an interesting turn of events for this thread. Just another day on FAF!


----------



## Rimna (Jul 30, 2022)

I hate that there's not enough monkey art that isn't obscure fetishes or just gross or bad.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Jul 30, 2022)

Can we summarize the last few pages as "people who don't read the fine print"?

Would sum up the religion talk AND also be something artists can repeat when dealing with buyers who don't read the contract and try to simply turn the work around for a business venture.

I'd have spoken up to the guy who got banned but everyone beat me to it.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I'd have spoken up to the guy who got banned but everyone beat me to it.


Yea man. We got you~. Don't gotta waste time with that guy.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Rimna said:


> I hate that there's not enough monkey art that isn't obscure fetishes or just gross or bad.


We'll have to work together to change that ouo


----------



## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)

Rimna said:


> I hate that there's not enough monkey art that isn't obscure fetishes or just gross or bad.


Speaking of, how come we don’t see that handsome monkey?


----------



## Kope (Jul 30, 2022)

Chomby said:


> The bigot was banned? The bigot was banned!!


I wonder what ever for


----------



## quoting_mungo (Jul 30, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I'd have spoken up to the guy who got banned but everyone beat me to it.


I had things I _could_ have said, but I was still debating whether they were actually trolling, and didn't want to feed the troll if so. (Or, really, participate in derailing the thread.)

Which I guess leads me to a vexing problem a lot of online communities have, this one included: People replying to spam bots or (even more obvious than this guy) blatant bait/trolling. Like... I don't care how clever you think your quip to the Viagra bot is, replying to it bumps the thread _and_ probably makes some algorithm somewhere go "cool, we're getting engagement!" The last bit is just guesswork on my part, but it fits in with the general pattern of how replying to spam email or texts or whatever just makes things worse because you've just confirmed it's an active email address/phone number.


----------



## Rimna (Jul 30, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> Speaking of, how come we don’t see that handsome monkey?


I'm not sure if I want to keep my account. I deleted my first one, and I don't know why I came back.


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 30, 2022)

Rimna said:


> I'm not sure if I want to keep my account. I deleted my first one, and I don't know why I came back.


I was only gone for a week but I also question why I came back after learning some things.


----------



## Troj (Jul 30, 2022)

PercyD said:


> These self-appointed, self-righteous people are a problem and it literally took Jesus coming down to tell them about themselves.


"Hey, boys and girls, can you say 'Pharisee?' I knew you could!"


Rimna said:


> I hate that there's not enough monkey art that isn't obscure fetishes or just gross or bad.


Yeah, true! Lots of species are woefully unrepresented generally, or only get their chance to shine in kink art.


----------



## Foxridley (Jul 30, 2022)

Chomby said:


> I was only gone for a week but I also question why I came back after learning some things.


Did some shit happen? Other than the aforementioned religious debate.


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 30, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> Did some shit happen? Other than the aforementioned religious debate.


I just found out there are more unsavory people here than once thought. I won't name names. The only other thing I'll say is that I'm very disappointed and that this doesn't help alleviate my trust issues.


----------



## Rimna (Jul 30, 2022)

Chomby said:


> I was only gone for a week but I also question why I came back after learning some things.


I first registered in 2017 and deleted the account in early 2021. I have made a couple of really good friends here, though, something that I will always be thankful for.
Apart from that, my experience has been mostly downhill since 2021.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 30, 2022)

Rimna said:


> I first registered in 2017 and deleted the account in early 2021. I have made a couple of really good friends here, though, something that I will always be thankful for.
> Apart from that, my experience has been mostly downhill since 2021.


I'm glad I got to meet you, one <3
Two, don't let the internet get you down~. I feel you if you decide to leave. I only drop in here every once in a blue moon.


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Rimna said:


> I first registered in 2017 and deleted the account in early 2021. I have made a couple of really good friends here, though, something that I will always be thankful for.
> Apart from that, my experience has been mostly downhill since 2021.


Is there Anything we can do to help?


----------



## Rimna (Jul 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> Is there Anything we can do to help?


No


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Rimna said:


> No


I’m sorry


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Jul 31, 2022)

Jeez Louis that was wild. 
*sigh*
And this is why people think Christians as a whole are bad. It really makes me sad, this isn't how it should be


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 31, 2022)

I looked at the person's main site page and they favorited a post by Kothorix of his dragon fursona's ref sheet. There's so many blue dragon fursonas out there. Why Kothorix?

Kinda sus.


----------



## Ziggy Schlacht (Jul 31, 2022)

So way back in this thread I posted "I hate when people assign morality (there own) to the amount and type of porn. And act superior for it."

I didn't expect 8 pages of examples.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Jeez Louis that was wild.
> *sigh*
> And this is why people think Christians as a whole are bad. It really makes me sad, this isn't how it should be


It makes me depressed too, I cant believe how many people in this country call themselves Christians yet ignore the teachings of Jesus.


Chomby said:


> I looked at the person's main site page and they favorited a post by Kothorix of his dragon fursona's ref sheet. There's so many blue dragon fursonas out there. Why Kothorix?
> 
> Kinda sus.


Wasnt that the a-hole that did a video defending pedophilia?


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> It makes me depressed too, I cant believe how many people in this country call themselves Christians yet ignore the teachings of Jesus.
> 
> Wasnt that the a-hole that did a video defending pedophilia?


I think some people just use the excuse of religion to be high and mighty over others because they are terrified of facing up to themselves and what life is.


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Everything is a distraction from death


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Jeez Louis that was wild.
> *sigh*
> And this is why people think Christians as a whole are bad. It really makes me sad, this isn't how it should be


Because of some comments on the internet? Christianity sure is a tame religion as far as being considered bad is concerned


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Because of some comments on the internet? Christianity sure is a tame religion as far as being considered bad is concerned


Where I live in the South, some Christian groups have been conducting book burnings for years. I have no issues with mainstream Christianity, but these extreme American fringe groups are a serious issue.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 31, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Where I live in the South, some Christian groups have been conducting book burnings for years. I have no issues with mainstream Christianity, but these extreme American fringe groups are a serious issue.


I just can only imagine what would happen if someone said something similar about islam and how "this is why people think muslims as a whole are bad", given that it's literally the worst offender worldwide

Actually I can totally imagine it since any word about it that isn't either praise or a blanket condemnation of all religions, always results in phony accusations of racism (you know, the islamic race).

Anyway I thought this thread was about what we don't like about the furry fandom as opposed to "let's bash Christians"
So I guess something I strongly dislike about it is how PC it is, always goes for the acceptable targets of the moment and believes that makes them very revolutionary when it's the same shit every megacorporation spews all day


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Jul 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I just can only imagine what would happen if someone said something similar about islam and how "this is why people think muslims as a whole are bad", given that it's literally the worst offender worldwide
> 
> Actually I can totally imagine it since any word about it that isn't either praise or a blanket condemnation of all religions, always results in phony accusations of racism (you know, the islamic race).
> 
> ...


Oh, Muslims definitely have some of the same issues with fundamentalism. If you are gay in Saudi Arabia you can face execution by beheading or stoning. Its just that the radical fundamentalist Muslims usually tend to still live in the Middle East. In the US Christian fundamentalists are still the largest offender.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 31, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Oh, Muslims definitely have some of the same issues with fundamentalism. If you are gay in Saudi Arabia you can face execution by beheading or stoning. Its just that the radical fundamentalist Muslims usually tend to still live in the Middle East. In the US Christian fundamentalists are still the largest offender.


Guess so, except when it comes to events such as the pulse massacre, I would argue there's probably more going in this direction than the reverse (Christians would probably have more difficulties shooting up a gay bar in Saudi Arabia since there's not much in terms of either Christians OR gay bars there)
I just wouldn't say such an awful thing about muslims as a whole as it is not right
But anyway, this is thoroughly off topic


----------



## PercyD (Jul 31, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Jeez Louis that was wild.
> *sigh*
> And this is why people think Christians as a whole are bad. It really makes me sad, this isn't how it should be


I've come to understand why that is. Other people who (claim) to be in my faith have done a lot of shit.

But it's not my job to defend Christianity as a whole. It's my job to stand up for the marginalized and help people feed themselves. The rest is just noise.


----------



## Lordgwen (Jul 31, 2022)

the fact if i go to deviant art and look up furry  i only get vore scat feet  and inflation pics when i just want a cute sfw furry pic-


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Jul 31, 2022)

Lordgwen said:


> the fact if i go to deviant art and look up furry  i only get vore scat feet  and inflation pics when i just want a cute sfw furry pic-


I think you may be doing something wrong, the results seem pretty legit








						Search 'furry' on DeviantArt - Discover The Largest Online Art Gallery and Community
					

DeviantArt is the world's largest online social community for artists and art enthusiasts, allowing people to connect through the creation and sharing of art.




					www.deviantart.com
				



If anything it just seems to feature too many female pinups which I find slightly boring

Anyway deviantart unlike FA, has an algorithm which you model after your own wishes and searches overtime, so if you keep running into scat and vore you might be the only one to blame!


----------



## Lordgwen (Jul 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I think you may be doing something wrong, the results seem pretty legit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


damn,the deviants mustve changed what theyve been posting for furries as of late!


----------



## Vishunei (Jul 31, 2022)

Hell, I could write a dissertation on the fandom. This is quite the loaded question you propose, and as much as I'd like to discuss my "60/40" ratio of annoyance and appreciation for the fandom, I'll keep it brief. In the ideal or theoretical settings, the fandom is incredible with the connections and diversity, the congregation of many souls for conventions and the like. It is beautiful, genuinely, in favorable circumstances; the love and kindness is sublime. But come on, I'm a cynic after all. Rarely does this happen unless you frequent conventions, having the resources or time to do so.

For more practical, common experience, I take a more bleak look, a more bitter view. I'll list some matters below, some very anecdotal takes and more general ones I'm sure more can agree on.


The word "cute" being used to describe everything, as if the average fur's vocabulary consists of exclusively that word. People will use such a term incessantly to describe anything, even if objectively wrong. You couldn't have a clue as to who someone is and still call them that; it's hollow and generic. Additionally, people may not feel cute despite your bombardment of said word. They could be insecure or out of touch with themselves, and  opening up with that word does little and could be seen as a tad disrespectful. Of course, there are many other examples of this word not just in socialization. TLDR: It's an overrated and obsessively term, and more beyond that. You can call me a hard-ass, or a bitter, sad cat; I'll take pride in it.
The* glorious hypocrisy* that resides in the fandom. This is more of a "general" issue within people, which furries are, unless you're an extremist. I do not intend that to be confused or disregarding the therian community. Essentially, this fandom prides itself on being welcoming, warming, etc. You've all heard it a thousand times. Please; give me a break. The community seems to cater to those with suits as that is the pinnacle of being a furry, or so many think. I have a partial and I've observed myself in social settings, and people do tend to cling to those with the materialistic matters. Beyond that, this fandom is diverse by default, but it doesn't do enough with that diversity. Yes, this generation burns as a raging fire devoted to social issues, a strong emphasis on reshaping/overhauling systems, etc. But in regards to the fandom, it doesn't do enough to appreciate marginalized groups... in an already significantly disliked community. A bit ironic, but I wish we could highlight differing racial groups, women and other identities, other nationalities, and so on. And mind you, I don't mean for a dedicated month, but normalize it. Celebrate, but don't appropriate or think one knows all about a minority demographic (Looking at my aggravating and somewhat racist roommate). Furries have become more mainstream gradually, which is nice. I feel it can reduce the stigma and such surrounding the fandom. 
This is geared more towards your average, immature, or disrespectful fur. No one should be surprised about the NSFW aspect of the fandom. A topic in itself, and I won't disclose my equal interest and annoyance in it. Yet I will voice my statement to not just assume everyone you come across is open or interested in play and such. This happens at meet-ups, conventions, you name it. And to not shut down the possibility of this with other gender identities, but this is significantly more observed in men. If you possess it, put your considerate mind over your hormones for just a damn minute. No one deserves to be approached and groped, etc without their consent.  Sadly, just because it isn't deserved doesn't mean it won't occurr to many. Sharing a mutual community doesn't automatically entail friendship or anything- that is a statement people need to know here*. To reiterate, being furries does not make us automatic friends, buddies, homies, whatever. Boundaries and such do not magically disappear because you found some flamboyant wolf on the dance floor and struck up a conversation.  Make sure you state your boundaries. When people get excited, when they want social clout in the moment, that's when boundaries slowly slip out of their mind and they begin acting as if they were never there. It's how people are, and furries especially. *Unless you are dressed for a fun time, and you know what you want/others around you as well, by all means, enjoy the hell out of yourself. Go wild; embrace it. But remember: a few seconds of peak bliss isn't worth potentially hurting someone or doing something that leaves them traumatized, uncomfortable, a destroyed bond, etc.


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 31, 2022)

Vishunei said:


> Hell, I could write a dissertation on the fandom. This is quite the loaded question you propose, and as much as I'd like to discuss my "60/40" ratio of annoyance and appreciation for the fandom, I'll keep it brief. In the ideal or theoretical settings, the fandom is incredible with the connections and diversity, the congregation of many souls for conventions and the like. It is beautiful, genuinely, in favorable circumstances; the love and kindness is sublime. But come on, I'm a cynic after all. Rarely does this happen unless you frequent conventions, having the resources or time to do so.
> 
> For more practical, common experience, I take a more bleak look, a more bitter view. I'll list some matters below, some very anecdotal takes and more general ones I'm sure more can agree on.
> 
> ...




Ya know, this is very true. Often racial minorities and women are unfairly targeted and even harassed. It’s unfortunate, because you’d think such a diverse group of sexualities wouldn’t turn around and harass others the way they often are in their real lives.

The amount of racism I’ve seen at cons and internet spaces is ridiculous. And pretty much every single friend of mine who’s a woman reports being sexually harassed or violated. We need to do better as a fandom.

On the bright side: when I went to AC I saw the most women and POC that I’ve ever seen before in the fandom. Hopefully that’s a trend that will continue.


----------



## Flamingo (Jul 31, 2022)

Vishunei said:


> words


I love your icon.


----------



## Vishunei (Jul 31, 2022)

Thank you, Flamingo.


Flamingo said:


> I love your icon.


Thank you. It's one of many meant to capture my melancholic nature.


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Because of some comments on the internet? Christianity sure is a tame religion as far as being considered bad is concerned


*Thinks back to the Crusades* oh yeah nothing bad ever happened there totally


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Where I live in the South, some Christian groups have been conducting book burnings for years. I have no issues with mainstream Christianity, but these extreme American fringe groups are a serious issue.


It makes me wonder if it comes from the Puritan side of the mayflower because they were pretty crazy too. Quakers were the Cool ones if I remember my history right.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 31, 2022)

Vishunei said:


> *To reiterate, being furries does not make us automatic friends, buddies, homies, whatever. Boundaries and such do not magically disappear because you found some flamboyant wolf on the dance floor and struck up a conversation.  Make sure you state your boundaries. When people get excited, when they want social clout in the moment, that's when boundaries slowly slip out of their mind and they begin acting as if they were never there. It's how people are, and furries especially. *Unless you are dressed for a fun time, and you know what you want/others around you as well, by all means, enjoy the hell out of yourself. Go wild; embrace it. But remember: a few seconds of peak bliss isn't worth potentially hurting someone or doing something that leaves them traumatized, uncomfortable, a destroyed bond, etc.



This here. This--
The boundaries in this fandom is freggin NON EXISTENT. omg...

I think there is like, wide spread neurodivergency in this fandom. People have varying degrees of social ineptitude, sensitivity, etc. And thats the case across the fandom in higher numbers than more mainstream fandoms.

But it's absolutely no excuse to disrespect somebody's boundaries. If somebody says no, that is no time to be all "owo why so mean-"
No. Just be like, "Alright, cool-" and listen for the next cue. Seriously. Everybody needs to practice this.


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

PercyD said:


> This here. This--
> The boundaries in this fandom is freggin NON EXISTENT. omg...
> 
> I think there is like, wide spread neurodivergency in this fandom. People have varying degrees of social ineptitude, sensitivity, etc. And thats the case I think here.
> ...


Just do what I do and generate a force field around yourself using magnets UwU


----------



## PercyD (Jul 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> Just do what I do and generate a force field around yourself using magnets UwU


Futuristic solutions. I love it-


----------



## Regret (Jul 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> *Thinks back to the Crusades* oh yeah nothing bad ever happened there totally


Talk about the Sins of the Father.  

Why must people always reach back approximately 800 years ago when discussing the character of Christianity in the present as a way to demean the belief system?


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Regret said:


> Talk about the Sins of the Father.
> 
> Why must people always reach back approximately 800 years ago when discussing the character of Christianity in the present as a way to demean the belief system?


OK in the present it has currently supported the overthrowing safe medical procedure for women that will get them killed as well as prosecuting Gay and Trans individuals. (Conversion therapy is torture)


----------



## Bababooey (Jul 31, 2022)

What I hate in the furry community is the lack of species diversity. As a cat person, being surrounded by stimky canines every day offends me. How dare they? How dare YOU?! BE A CAT! 

In case it isn't obvious, I'm joking.


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Chomby said:


> What I hate in the furry community is the lack of species diversity. As a cat person, being surrounded by stimky canines every day offends me. How dare they? How dare YOU?! BE A CAT!
> 
> In case it isn't obvious, I'm joking.


You want  me to invent another species?


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> I just can only imagine what would happen if someone said something similar about islam and how "this is why people think muslims as a whole are bad", given that it's literally the worst offender worldwide
> 
> Actually I can totally imagine it since any word about it that isn't either praise or a blanket condemnation of all religions, always results in phony accusations of racism (you know, the islamic race).
> 
> ...


You do realize that conservative sides of these religions commit these offenses right? It's not limited to one religion.


----------



## PercyD (Jul 31, 2022)

Kope said:


> You want  me to invent another species?


You don't need to invent a species when we have like... the whole world and its animals.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Jul 31, 2022)

I see a few people talking about boundaries, about not wanting to see NSFW, and I see a couple of newcomers who I don't know if they've been around for this yet...

Since I don't know other good ways to warn people, I'll state here to these people that they should probably find safe searches (and I don't mean going to just general-only on FA, that _will not_ be enough I'm pretty sure) and start using them this week, or at least before next Monday.... or stay off the art sites entirely on that day....

What was that safe search thing again?

(Hey I know I hate not being warned, I can't be alone on this.)


----------



## Smityyyy (Jul 31, 2022)

Chomby said:


> What I hate in the furry community is the lack of species diversity. As a cat person, being surrounded by stimky canines every day offends me. How dare they? How dare YOU?! BE A CAT!
> 
> In case it isn't obvious, I'm joking.


Don’t worry I’m slowly converting everyone into raccoons >:3


----------



## Kope (Jul 31, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Don’t worry I’m slowly converting everyone into raccoons >:3


No I don't want to be smelly


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> *Thinks back to the Crusades* oh yeah nothing bad ever happened there totally


Yeahh case in point, you've got to go back nearly a thousand fucking years ago


Kope said:


> You do realize that conservative sides of these religions commit these offenses right? It's not limited to one religion.


That's exactly one of my points

This thread about the furry fandom devolved into "Christianity is so bad" but the moment you say anything about islam all of a sudden it mysteriously has to be about ALL religions. Why is that? as I said Christianity is ridiculously tame compared to either islam, or atheistic regimes such as communist China where muslims and christians alike are heinously oppressed.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Yeahh case in point, you've got to go back nearly a thousand fucking years ago
> 
> That's exactly one of my points
> 
> This thread about the furry fandom devolved into "Christianity is so bad" but the moment you say anything about islam all of a sudden it mysteriously has to be about ALL religions. Why is that? as I said Christianity is ridiculously tame compared to either islam, or atheistic regimes such as communist China where muslims and christians alike are heinously oppressed.


When you had to bring up Islam in particular in order to defend Christianity it’s kind of suspicious imo. Also I brought up modern atrocities that Christian’s (mostly evangelicals) are commiting earlier in the thread if you care to look


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> When you had to bring up Islam in particular in order to defend Christianity it’s kind of suspicious imo.


Not what I did, mostly asking questions and bringing some perspective. And either way my points stand.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Not what I did, mostly asking questions and bringing some perspective. And either way my points stand.





Frank Gulotta said:


> Not what I did, mostly asking questions and bringing some perspective. And either way my points stand.


Considering Christianity is one of the worlds most popular religions doesn’t it makes sense that people gravitate to critizing one of the most well known ones?


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> Considering Christianity is one of the worlds most popular religions doesn’t it makes sense that people gravitate to critizing one of the most well known ones?


Precisely because despite being I think the religion with the most adherents, it's not the most damaging by far

Talking about what little damage it causes is okay but the biggest problem I have is when more damaging ideologies systematically benefit from a constant barrage of excuses and obfuscation.


----------



## Rimna (Aug 1, 2022)

Christianity is alright
Another thing that I baffles me is just how obsessed furries are with politics and religion. I don't remember seeing so much of it in any other fandom.


----------



## SirRob (Aug 1, 2022)

Rimna said:


> Christianity is alright
> Another thing that I baffles me is just how obsessed furries are with politics and religion. I don't remember seeing so much of it in any other fandom.


Might be due to the substantial LGBTQ+ population given their rights are a big subject of debate in politics right now. That being said, we're certainly not the only fandom that's like this, it's pretty much the internet in general. These sorts of topics are always at the top of Reddit and Twitter.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Precisely because despite being I think the religion with the most adherents, it's not the most damaging by far
> 
> Talking about what little damage it causes is okay but the biggest problem I have is when more damaging ideologies systematically benefit from a constant barrage of excuses and obfuscation.


We shouldn’t whitewash history


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

SirRob said:


> Might be due to the substantial LGBTQ+ population given their rights are a big subject of debate in politics right now. That being said, we're certainly not the only fandom that's like this, it's pretty much the internet in general. These sorts of topics are always at the top of Reddit and Twitter.


Yeah gay people deserve equal rights after all so it makes sense.


----------



## Thrashy (Aug 1, 2022)

Chomby said:


> being surrounded by stimky canines


I agree 100%. 

Better be a skunk!


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> It makes me wonder if it comes from the Puritan side of the mayflower because they were pretty crazy too. Quakers were the Cool ones if I remember my history right.


A little bit. Looking at history it mostly comes from the Great Awakenings of the first half of the 1800s which gave us the Mormons and other crazy beliefs. Also to my surprise the Quakers still exist.
And the Shakers still exist with a global population of 2 adherents.


Frank Gulotta said:


> Yeahh case in point, you've got to go back nearly a thousand fucking years ago


There was the Taiping Rebellion which was caused by a weird offshoot of Christianity which killed around 20-30 million people in the 1860s. 
In more recent times you have Joseph Kony and his Lords Resistance Army in Uganda which has attempted to create a theocratic state based off of the ten commandments, he is also infamous for kidnapping children and using them as child soldiers. As far as we know he is still at large though his army has significantly reduced in size.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> A little bit. Looking at history it mostly comes from the Great Awakenings of the first half of the 1800s which gave us the Mormons and other crazy beliefs. Also to my surprise the Quakers still exist.
> And the Shakers still exist with a global population of 2 adherents.
> 
> There was the Taiping Rebellion which was caused by a weird offshoot of Christianity which killed around 20-30 million people in the 1860s.
> In more recent times you have Joseph Kony and his Lords Resistance Army in Uganda which has attempted to create a theocratic state based off of the ten commandments, he is also infamous for kidnapping children and using them as child soldiers. As far as we know he is still at large though his army has significantly reduced in size.


The Taiping rebellion were christian in the same way as the black hebrew israelites are Jews


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> A little bit. Looking at history it mostly comes from the Great Awakenings of the first half of the 1800s which gave us the Mormons and other crazy beliefs. Also to my surprise the Quakers still exist.
> And the Shakers still exist with a global population of 2 adherents.
> 
> There was the Taiping Rebellion which was caused by a weird offshoot of Christianity which killed around 20-30 million people in the 1860s.
> In more recent times you have Joseph Kony and his Lords Resistance Army in Uganda which has attempted to create a theocratic state based off of the ten commandments, he is also infamous for kidnapping children and using them as child soldiers. As far as we know he is still at large though his army has significantly reduced in size.


Damn I didn’t know that about Kony that’s crazy. (Why aren’t we stopping people like that America Come On)


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> The Taiping rebellion were christian in the same way as the black hebrew israelites are Jews


It still utilized Christian iconography, albeit very bastardized.
Also in the US you got the KKK that has been doing their thing since the civil war ended. 


Kope said:


> Damn I didn’t know that about Kony that’s crazy. (Why aren’t we stopping people like that America Come On)


We did send soldiers over there as part of Operation Observant Compass a few years back, it just wasnt shown in the media that much.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Yeahh case in point, you've got to go back nearly a thousand fucking years ago





Spoiler: History Check



Eh, people forget more recent examples. 

Like, here in the States, the Ku Klux Klan was, and is, a Christian terrorist group. Christian, namely Protestant Christian, supremacy is a core tenet in their mission and they don't burn those crosses ironically. 

If they isn't recent enough for you, there were several Christian terrorist groups after Roe v. Wade came down that blew up abortion clinics and killed abortion providers and proponents. 

There is also the fact that far-right domestic terrorist groups, which have Christian supremacy as a major part of their core mission, have been the top killer of Americans domestically, even with the War on Terror.

You're European, so you know should know what the Srebrenica massacre was too.

I'm only going to lightly note that, violence aside, anyone who doubts that Christian fundamentalism is on the rise here in the States need only look back a few pages for an example of the homophobia based in faith that a majority of one party at least tolerates. Let's not have short memories.

Now, this isn't single out Christianity because other religions also have their extremist groups and arguably every religion has its extremists. But we need to be candid about religious extremism and use its presence in other religions to deflect from its presence in our own.



In terms of something I hate about the fandom, though hate probably isn't the right word, I kind of wishing there was more reading and writing in the fandom. Also, more writing groups.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> It still utilized Christian iconography, albeit very bastardized.


Hence my comparison


Baron Tredegar said:


> Also in the US you got the KKK that has been doing their thing since the civil war ended.


When was the last time they killed someone, the 1950s? also they took their inspiration from many sources and I'm almost sure none of them is the bible since christianity started as a religion of slaves. One of their inspiration funnily enough, was the quran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloran (which makes sense since this book explicitly condones slavery)


Baron Tredegar said:


> We did send soldiers over there as part of Operation Observant Compass a few years back, it just wasnt shown in the media that much.


There was also a wretched hashtag that became a meme


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> It still utilized Christian iconography, albeit very bastardized.
> Also in the US you got the KKK that has been doing their thing since the civil war ended.
> 
> We did send soldiers over there as part of Operation Observant Compass a few years back, it just wasnt shown in the media that much.


Hmm I guess it failed then


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> When was the last time they killed someone, the 1950s? also they took their inspiration from many sources and I'm almost sure none of them is the bible since christianity started as a religion of slaves. One of their inspiration funnily enough, was the quran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloran (which makes sense since this book explicitly condones slavery)


Before the Civil War slave owners used the Bible in an attempt to justify slavery (curse of ham), after the war the KKK opposed anyone that wasnt a white protestant. The last time they killed someone was in 1981. They also hate muslims and the Kloran is less inspired by Islam and more them trying to keep consistency with their stupid naming conventions.


Kope said:


> Hmm I guess it failed then


I think a couple of the remaining commanders got killed and the military decided he wasnt much of a threat anymore.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Hence my comparison
> 
> When was the last time they killed someone, the 1950s? also they took their inspiration from many sources and I'm almost sure none of them is the bible since christianity started as a religion of slaves. One of their inspiration funnily enough, was the quran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloran (which makes sense since this book explicitly condones slavery)
> 
> There was also a wretched hashtag that became a meme


https://voices.uchicago.edu/religio...ponse-to-kelly-j-baker-by-randall-j-stephens/ 









						Cross Burning
					

Cross burning, which has been used as a form of intimidation against African Americans and Jews, has been defended in the courts on free speech grounds.




					www.mtsu.edu
				



"At Klan gatherings, members, dressed in hoods, sang “Onward Christian Soldiers” and “The Old Rugged Cross.” "


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Making me do research like this is a history class or something dang it


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Before the Civil War slave owners used the Bible in an attempt to justify slavery (curse of ham), after the war the KKK opposed anyone that wasnt a white protestant. The last time they killed someone was in 1981. They also hate muslims and the Kloran is less inspired by Islam and more them trying to keep consistency with their stupid naming conventions.


We would flop asking for a show of hands for who here was even alive the last time the KKK was actually a problem then, also I'm sure they would have better ways to keep up with naming conventions without referencing the one religious book that gives bizarre, possibly racist names to black people (muhammad apparently had a habit of referring to black people as "raisin-heads") and actually condones slavery. And yet for some reason they did...?

Just trying to make sense out of this shit, if I were a die-hard pro-slavery racist I would go with the religion whose central figure owned and traded black slaves, not the one in which the central message boils down to "if a lot of people love each others, the world will be a better place"


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Aug 1, 2022)

Well here's my quick input, as I should just stay out of the argument. But here.


Spoiler



My opinion is, to judge a religion fairly, yoy should look at what the actual teachings are in their own texts (besides historical accuracy of their beliefs, which is of course a charged subject that I won't even touch on). So, actual Christians aren't bad. Because all the violent groups are significantly deviating from that. And of course that's different for each religion. Like Islam, most the Muslims you met in America are really nice, because their version of the religion is real nice. However, due to the Koran having many calls for violence in it, a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam is the Christians who do horrific stuff are deviating from their texts, while the Muslims who do horrific things are usually the closest adherents to their texts.
This is not parroted information, I have actually read both the Bible and the Koran during my time searching for what religion, if any, was correct.



Aight, and that's it. Don't want to get in trouble again for forum rule violation.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> We would flop asking for a show of hands for who here was even alive the last time the KKK was actually a problem then, also I'm sure they would have better ways to keep up with naming conventions without referencing the one religious book that gives bizarre, possibly racist names to black people (muhammad apparently had a habit of referring to black people as "raisin-heads") and actually condones slavery. And yet for some reason they did...?


The Klan still had a very real presence in my area when my parents were growing up. Not really related to the KKK but the Book of Mormon says that black people cant go to heaven just because their black.


The_Happiest_Husky said:


> Well here's my quick input, as I should just stay out of the argument. But here.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Very good assessment.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> We would flop asking for a show of hands for who here was even alive the last time the KKK was actually a problem then, also I'm sure they would have better ways to keep up with naming conventions without referencing the one religious book that gives bizarre, possibly racist names to black people (muhammad apparently had a habit of referring to black people as "raisin-heads") and actually condones slavery. And yet for some reason they did...?
> 
> Just trying to make sense out of this shit, if I were a die-hard pro-slavery racist I would go with the religion whose central figure owned and traded black slaves, not the one in which the central message boils down to "if a lot of people love each others, the world will be a better place"


There's a lot in Mississippi actually and here in Franklin TN we have the modern version who wear all white clothing with masks on. I have a picture but FaF is weird with those rn


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> The Klan still had a very real presence in my area when my parents were growing up. Not really related to the KKK but the Book of Mormon says that black people cant go to heaven just because their black.
> 
> Very good assessment.


Holy shit that's psychotic


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## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> Holy shit that's psychotic


They also used to say that if you were a really faithful black person God would turn you white. They also taught the same things about Native Americans.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> We would flop asking for a show of hands for who here was even alive the last time the KKK was actually a problem then, also I'm sure they would have better ways to keep up with naming conventions without referencing the one religious book that gives bizarre, possibly racist names to black people (muhammad apparently had a habit of referring to black people as "raisin-heads") and actually condones slavery. And yet for some reason they did...?
> 
> Just trying to make sense out of this shit, if I were a die-hard pro-slavery racist I would go with the religion whose central figure owned and traded black slaves, not the one in which the central message boils down to "if a lot of people love each others, the world will be a better place"


You must not be well-versed in US history, because it's well-known here that churches had used Christianity and the Bible to justify slavery ... just like it was used to justify colonialism, so I don't know where you got that it couldn't be used for those malevolent ends due to being a "religion of slaves".

This is History 101.

Also, maybe we should pump our brakes and not lecture some of us on how the KKK isn't a problem for us ... from France.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> You must not be well-versed in US history, because it's well-known here that churches had used Christianity and the Bible to justify slavery ... just like it was used to justify colonialism, so I don't know where you got that it couldn't be used for those malevolent ends due to being a "religion of slaves".
> 
> This is History 101.


I think Frank failed that class lol


----------



## Eremurus (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank getting shit on by the masses gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. We're gonna be alright, folks. Nature is healing.


----------



## Rimna (Aug 1, 2022)

The shit going down in this thread is also pretty high on my list of "what you hate about the fandom"


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Rimna said:


> The shit going down in this thread is also pretty high on my list of "what you hate about the fandom"


Dogpile? That’s what dogs are for though.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Aug 1, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> In terms of something I hate about the fandom, though hate probably isn't the right word, I kind of wishing there was more reading and writing in the fandom. Also, more writing groups.


Depends on what you're looking for in writing groups, I suppose - https://www.furaffinity.net/user/thursdayprompt has weekly prompts going, for instance. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a furry subgroup on the NaNoWriMo forums, though I've not looked. More than anything I'd say the furry writing community is splintered; it was alive and healthy on LiveJournal longer than most of the art communities I was aware of at the time, but LiveJournal isn't exactly a buzzing hub of activity these days. It had a good presence on Yiffstar before they rebranded to SoFurry (and probably still does, but there were things with that transition that sat badly with me so I kind of abandoned my account to collect dust), and FurRag was a pretty good place while it lasted. Some writers more or less gave up on the gallery sites and set up their own websites instead (I post a very narrow selection of my writing on FA, and when I do complete something else it usually goes on my self-hosted Wordpress blog. Also host a story blog for hubby-dearest on the same parent domain).


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Eremurus said:


> Frank getting shit on by the masses gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. We're gonna be alright, folks. Nature is healing.


You get warm feelings because two people and some creepy monkey in the background are disagreeing with minor points I made? whatever floats your boat


----------



## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> The Klan still had a very real presence in my area when my parents were growing up. Not really related to the KKK but the Book of Mormon says that black people cant go to heaven just because their black.
> 
> Very good assessment.


Interesting story-
My family is in NC. Theres not really any Klan presence here. And its primarily because the Klan tried it (twice) and was kicked out by the Black WWII battalion the first time. 
The second time, it was the Native American Lumbee.
B)
My grandfather fought in WWII so... its very likely him and some of his friends handled the business. And this is the only way you can handle fascists. Period.


----------



## Punji (Aug 1, 2022)

This is hardly a fandom thing and more of a human thing, but I hate how it's apparently seen as okay to be incredibly toxic and abusive towards other people for no real reason beyond a difference of opinion while simultaneously pretending to be moral paragons and/or victims of an unfair social narrative.

Can't people just let little things go? Anonymity doesn't justify abuse. :<


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You get warm feelings because two people and some creepy monkey in the background are disagreeing with minor points I made? whatever floats your boat


“Minor points” means getting history completely wrong lol


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> “Minor points” means getting history completely wrong lol


That's a gross overstatement, just like calling you and two others "the masses", I know you're americans but still

Anyway you confessed to just being a troll in the past so why would I argue


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Punji said:


> This is hardly a fandom thing and more of a human thing, but I hate how it's apparently seen as okay to be incredibly toxic and abusive towards other people for no real reason beyond a difference of opinion while simultaneously pretending to be moral paragons and/or victims of an unfair social narrative.
> 
> Can't people just let little things go? Anonymity doesn't justify abuse. :<


I don’t think Frank is a victim. He just says incorrect things about history. If I said the sky was usually pink I would hope people would tell me otherwise.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> That's a gross overstatement, just like calling you and two others "the masses", I know you're americans but still
> 
> Anyway you confessed to just being a troll in the past so why would I argue


I’m a wolf not a troll.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> I’m a wolf not a troll.


Fair enough


----------



## SirRob (Aug 1, 2022)




----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

SirRob said:


>


lol what


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You get warm feelings because two people and some creepy *monkey *in the background are disagreeing with minor points I made? whatever floats your boat


I'm sure you meant that in the most innocent way.


----------



## Chaosmasterdelta (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> lol what


I think SirRob is saying that there is sexual tension hidden in your and Frank's arguing.


----------



## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Chaosmasterdelta said:


> I think SirRob is saying that there is sexual tension hidden in your and Frank's arguing.


I guess but idk what Frank looks like so eh


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Aug 1, 2022)

Punji said:


> This is hardly a fandom thing and more of a human thing, but I hate how it's apparently seen as okay to be incredibly toxic and abusive towards other people for no real reason beyond a difference of opinion while simultaneously pretending to be moral paragons and/or victims of an unfair social narrative.
> 
> Can't people just let little things go? Anonymity doesn't justify abuse. :<


Eh, I bite on the whiteknighting.

You've have issues like your disability that you've felt strongly about in the past and would absolutely hate for someone to downplay or misrepresent. Your boyfriend not long ago argued a few pages with someone who turned feel that LBGT folks are sinners and that it's more than alright to murder over religious law, and I'll admit it was decent of him to take the time to do so. 

So when Frank decides to misrepresent history, downplay how much of threat the KKK is here, and play victim after, I'll admit, I'm not with it. Neither are other folks, who have know and feel the history of this. 

Some things people have no sense of about and some y'all need to learn this.


----------



## Smityyyy (Aug 1, 2022)

Daily reminder that you’re free to _say _whatever your heart desires. 

You’re _not _free from the consequences of those words. Especially if those words invalidate the hundreds of years of struggles of minorities or are just downright inaccurate.

Don’t want criticism? Don’t post on the internet. Sorry, that’s life.


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## Kope (Aug 1, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Daily reminder that you’re free to _say _whatever your heart desires.
> 
> You’re _not _free from the consequences of those words. Especially if those words invalidate the hundreds of years of struggles of minorities or are just downright inaccurate.
> 
> Don’t want criticism? Don’t post on the internet. Sorry, that’s life.


Yep life can be as stinky as a raccoon if you’re not careful with your words!


----------



## The_Happiest_Husky (Aug 1, 2022)

Chaosmasterdelta said:


> I think SirRob is saying that there is sexual tension hidden in your and Frank's arguing.


Official forum ship- Frank x Kope


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Interesting story-
> My family is in NC. Theres not really any Klan presence here. And its primarily because the Klan tried it (twice) and was kicked out by the Black WWII battalion the first time.
> The second time, it was the Native American Lumbee.
> B)
> My grandfather fought in WWII so... its very likely him and some of his friends handled the business. And this is the only way you can handle fascists. Period.


Sadly it was the opposite in my part of Georgia, the WW2 veterans came back from the Pacific and helped the Klan have a major resurgence.


----------



## Kumali (Aug 1, 2022)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Yeahh case in point, you've got to go back nearly a thousand fucking years ago



Oh, please. The "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, just for a start, with both sides claiming Christianity. (Catholics vs. Protestants)

And, of course, the right-wing violence in America over the last few years, with many of its perpetrators - I would guess the majority - proudly claiming Christian identity.



Frank Gulotta said:


> The Taiping rebellion were christian in the same way as the black hebrew israelites are Jews



If they self-identify as Christians, and have Bible verses to back themselves up (since the Bible can be used to justify anything, no matter how atrocious), there's no real way to contradict that. No sect of Christians has any more or less claim to the identity than any other.



Frank Gulotta said:


> Hence my comparison
> 
> When was the last time they killed someone, the 1950s? also they took their inspiration from many sources and I'm almost sure none of them is the bible since christianity started as a religion of slaves. One of their inspiration funnily enough, was the quran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloran (which makes sense since this book explicitly condones slavery)



You are aware, aren't you, that the Bible condones slavery? 

https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/ 



Baron Tredegar said:


> Before the Civil War slave owners used the Bible in an attempt to justify slavery (curse of ham), after the war the KKK opposed anyone that wasnt a white protestant.



History lesson (for Frank, mainly): the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant and second-largest Christian denomination in the U.S. and the largest Baptist denomination in the world, split from the rest of the Baptist church in 1845 _specifically over the issue of slavery,_ which the SBC wanted to maintain. To this day, that's their racist legacy. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention 



Baron Tredegar said:


> The last time they killed someone was in 1981.





Frank Gulotta said:


> We would flop asking for a show of hands for who here was even alive the last time the KKK was actually a problem then



I was in my junior year of high school in 1981, FWIW. And in any event, what difference does it make if a still-existing white supremacist terrorist organization's most recent (documented) murder was in the 50s or the 80s? They're still dangerous, owing directly to their ideology, stated goals, and influence. (e.g. the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville in 2017)



Frank Gulotta said:


> if I were a die-hard pro-slavery racist I would go with the religion whose central figure owned and traded black slaves, not the one in which the central message boils down to "if a lot of people love each others, the world will be a better place"



As noted before, if you were a die-hard pro-slavery racist you'd fit right into the Southern Baptist Convention, and no one could question your Christian credentials.



Frank Gulotta said:


> the central message boils down to "if a lot of people love each others, the world will be a better place"



The rest of the website I linked above about slavery might prove enlightening for you as to what the Bible actually teaches: 

https://www.evilbible.com 



Miles Marsalis said:


> when Frank decides to misrepresent history, downplay how much of threat the KKK is here, and play victim after, I'll admit, I'm not with it.



I'm not either.


----------



## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Sadly it was the opposite in my part of Georgia, the WW2 veterans came back from the Pacific and helped the Klan have a major resurgence.


Sounds on brand for Georgia. I'm sure the guys my grandfather fought along side just decided to stay in Europe instead of come back to Georgia.


----------



## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> They also used to say that if you were a really faithful black person God would turn you white. They also taught the same things about Native Americans.


Lol, ya. That also sounds on brand-

I feel compelled to mention the different arms of Christainity. Theres the Asian one (the main one, like Jesus showed up there).
The African one (Ethiopia/Abyssinia was the first Christian empire)
And the European one that of course spread across all over.

It's... ludicrous.


----------



## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> I guess but idk what Frank looks like so eh


Right? Advocate for what you want.


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Lol, ya. That also sounds on brand-
> 
> I feel compelled to mention the different arms of Christainity. Theres the Asian one (the main one, like Jesus showed up there).
> The African one (Ethiopia/Abyssinia was the first Christian empire)
> ...


Ethiopian Christianity is really interesting, their Bible has the most books out of all the other branches.
Theres also the Nestorians who were all in the Middle East and Persia. A small group of Nestorians even made their way to India and really confused the European missionaries later on when they discovered there were Christians already chilling out in India.


----------



## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Some things people have no sense of about and some y'all need to learn this.


They have no sense of about and they need to keep their mouths shut. *shrug*
If I don't know about something myself, I just go into listening mode. Though, I've blocked the other person at some point before this conversation so I've already determined that they aren't worth my time, nor will I learn any thing new from them.

Everybody on the otherside has absolutely no new talking points. They've been talking about the same shit for roughly the past couple centuries. And they're still wrong. Straight up and down. I don't make space for fascists. My grandfather didn't spend his formative years fighting them for me to listen to their same tired ass talking points.


----------



## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Ethiopian Christianity is really interesting, their Bible has the most books out of all the other branches.
> Theres also the Nestorians who were all in the Middle East and Persia. A small group of Nestorians even made their way to India and really confused the European missionaries later on when they discovered there were Christians already chilling out in India.


The Ethiopians came over to the U.S and didnt like how black folks were being treated. They started a (Baptist) church in New York. I go there now. It's very interesting. We don't use the Ethiopian books, but the interpretation of the bible is more traditional (traditional like, Africana traditional).


----------



## Baron Tredegar (Aug 1, 2022)

PercyD said:


> The Ethiopians came over to the U.S and didnt like how black folks were being treated. They started a (Baptist) church in New York. I go there now. It's very interesting. We don't use the Ethiopian books, but the interpretation of the bible is more traditional (traditional like, Africana traditional).


Yeah its really fascinating. After the Caliphates conquered North Africa the Ethiopians basically had no contact with the rest of the Christian world for centuries and kind of just started developing their own traditions and stuff with their worship.


----------



## Punji (Aug 1, 2022)

Kope said:


> I don’t think Frank is a victim. He just says incorrect things about history. If I said the sky was usually pink I would hope people would tell me otherwise.





Miles Marsalis said:


> Eh, I bite on the whiteknighting.
> 
> You've have issues like your disability that you've felt strongly about in the past and would absolutely hate for someone to downplay or misrepresent. Your boyfriend not long ago argued a few pages with someone who turned feel that LBGT folks are sinners and that it's more than alright to murder over religious law, and I'll admit it was decent of him to take the time to do so.
> 
> ...


Whether a person is right or wrong about history, we don't need several people to address it. If I said the sky was usually pink only one person would have to point out it's usually not. This doesn't feel like it's just about the historical facts.

What's going on here is little short of bullying and dogpiling. Posting about enjoying another user's harassment isn't helpful or productive. Right or wrong, good or bad, no one here should be subjected to mockery and bullying and then have users post about how much they enjoy seeing it happen. I'd defend you Miles and I have defended you, Kope. Surely you didn't enjoy having several users complain about you in public, please don't do the same to someone else.



Smityyyy said:


> Daily reminder that you’re free to _say _whatever your heart desires.
> 
> You’re _not _free from the consequences of those words. Especially if those words invalidate the hundreds of years of struggles of minorities or are just downright inaccurate.
> 
> Don’t want criticism? Don’t post on the internet. Sorry, that’s life.


Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. :<

There is criticism and there is abuse.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Kumali said:


> I was in my junior year of high school in 1981, FWIW. And in any event, what difference does it make if a still-existing white supremacist terrorist organization's most recent (documented) murder was in the 50s or the 80s? They're still dangerous, owing directly to their ideology, stated goals, and influence. (e.g. the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville in 2017)


Actually, they've been killing people and destroying communities as recent as 2015
https://rollingout.com/2015/03/21/5-horrific-modern-day-lynchings-blacks-america/

Sun down towns still exist- and they are upheld by white supremacist groups.
https://justice.tougaloo.edu/sundown-towns/using-the-sundown-towns-database/state-map/

But I have a STRONG feeling the person who you're arguing with does not care. This is literally just for your information Kumali.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Yeah its really fascinating. After the Caliphates conquered North Africa the Ethiopians basically had no contact with the rest of the Christian world for centuries and kind of just started developing their own traditions and stuff with their worship.


Given how things have been going down, they're probably better behind it--

My family is most likely West African- very unlikely to have ever got in contact with the Abyssinians. They had their own gods, faiths, and traditions. Its difficult to reconcile because the Christianity that was (forced) upon us was European-American, with the sole purpose of enslavement of West Africans. We reconcile it as "what they meant for evil, we meant for good," but also there is a blend of things. 
African American Christianity (whether its Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal etc) is steeped in activism. But i still gotta be VERY careful. Theres a lot of churches out there that will manipulate you towards an end (greed, control, etc).


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## Miles Marsalis (Aug 1, 2022)

Punji said:


> Whether a person is right or wrong about history, we don't need several people to address it. If I said the sky was usually pink only one person would have to point out it's usually not. This doesn't feel like it's just about the historical facts.
> 
> What's going on here is little short of bullying and dogpiling. Posting about enjoying another user's harassment isn't helpful or productive. Right or wrong, good or bad, no one here should be subjected to mockery and bullying and then have users post about how much they enjoy seeing it happen. I'd defend you Miles and I have defended you, Kope. Surely you didn't enjoy having several users complain about you in public, please don't do the same to someone else.


I mean, it's not just about the historical facts; it's also about how people were affected by that history and how Frank was pretty clearly misrepresenting that, as he has done repeatedly. If Frank has a problem with that criticism, then he can either take it or push back against it. If by "several users" you mean the clique that you usually whiteknight for, which seems to be the only quarter I get criticism from here, as Jemele Hill would put it, I'm unbothered. 

I don't see users getting fed up with people trying push bigoted narratives on here - or just general assholes who take joyful pride in their work - as dogpiling or bullying. If you're annoying the community and ignore them when politely ask you to stop, then you'd shouldn't be surprised when that backs up on you.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Punji said:


> Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. :<
> 
> There is criticism and there is abuse.


Telling somebody they're wrong is not abuse, bruh bruh. 

ESPECIALLY if they're out here downplaying murder, genocide, and general fascism. I think you need to find something else to cape for before your feelings get hurt too.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Aug 1, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Telling somebody they're wrong is not abuse, bruh bruh.
> 
> ESPECIALLY if they're out here downplaying murder, genocide, and general fascism. I think you need to find something else to cape for before your feelings get hurt too.


Whether we all like it or not, too many people trying to correct Frank at the same time puts him and the people who more fully side with him in a position where they can call us all oppressive control freaks.

These downplay antics _thrive_ on bait and too many of us took it at once.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Whether we all like it or not, too many people trying to correct Frank at the same time puts him and the people who more fully side with him in a position where they can call us all oppressive control freaks.
> 
> These downplay antics _thrive_ on bait and too many of us took it at once.


Does it look like I give a fuck?


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## Smityyyy (Aug 1, 2022)

Yeah I’m sorry but not wanting blatant bigotry or misinformation which has repeatedly been used to harm people like myself and others I consider to be close friends — is not dogpiling. Maybe it’s true that Frank feels attacked. But consider how racial minorities might be feeling seeing people in their community misrepresent the atrocities of a racial hate group. Uneducated comments, _especially _when repeated and malicious — hurt people. It drives them out of a space where they _should _be just as welcome as anybody else.

And please… Frank has a long history of constantly pushing uneducated and very concerning rhetoric. It makes the community uncomfortable as you can see from him receiving constant backlash for his behavior. I’m sorry but I’m not tolerating a person who constantly, maliciously likes to make ridiculous claims like this.

We all know this isn’t a case of a one-off and innocent, but ignorant, comment. If that were the case, I’m sure people would be (and should be) more willing to be polite and educate rather than attack. But when this is a recurring issue and this user constantly tries to stir shit with users such as myself… I’m not going to pretend that they’re this totally innocent and harmless party.

Everyone here’s an adult and is responsible for their own actions and words. If you say things which invalidate or downplay the very real struggles of people, you’re going to get responses.

Now I myself haven’t spoken to Frank in this thread at all because, frankly, I don’t really care what bs he wants to spew today to “trigger” me. I just dislike the constant white knighting for someone who constantly maliciously engages in behaviors like this.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Let them take the hint that we don't fucking want them and their tired ass talking points here.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

I don't play nice with fascists. Thats the real bait here.
Your talking points are shit. No body likes you. Go away.  --Thats my real issue with the furry community.

Everybody wants to be fucking coddled. Hell no. If you're a deplorable- i.e., you subscribe to fascist gazette, get the fuck out~


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## Punji (Aug 1, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, it's not just about the historical facts; it's also about how people were affected by that history and how Frank was pretty clearly misrepresenting that, as he has done repeatedly. If Frank has a problem with that criticism, then he can either take it or push back against it. If by "several users" you mean the clique that you usually whiteknight for, which seems to be the only quarter I get criticism from here, as Jemele Hill would put it, I'm unbothered.
> 
> I don't see users getting fed up with people trying push bigoted narratives on here - or just general assholes who take joyful pride in their work - as dogpiling or bullying. If you're annoying the community and ignore them when politely ask you to stop, then you'd shouldn't be surprised when that backs up on you.


Oh Miles. Criticism is fine, we have seen much more than pure critique. Fair and honest discussions about the history are one thing, and even if we ignore the abrasiveness of this entire thread past the first handful of pages there are multiple comments directly targeting Frank himself. If I'm "whiteknighting" because I don't want to see and condone blatant harassment I'd hate to ask what it's called when you offer your own concerns. It's dishonest to say the only things being said to and about Frank are honest criticisms of his posts.

Now I haven't read everything because I don't know much either way about the literal history of these events, but from what I've seen and know of the Internet no one has politely asked anyone to stop anything but *me*. Not one user here at all even remotely tolerates racism and no one has expressed this at all either. Frank is being attacked as if he did. All that I ask, of you, others, and Frank, is to be civil and decent. Discuss the points and positions, not each other.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Aug 1, 2022)

PercyD said:


> I don't play nice with fascists. Thats the real bait here.
> Your talking points are shit. No body likes you. Go away.  --Thats my real issue with the furry community.
> 
> Everybody wants to be fucking coddled. Hell no. If you're a deplorable- i.e., you subscribe to fascist gazette, get the fuck out~


It's unfortunately a perception thing.  All of us talking at once makes _us_ get mistaken for the toxic assholes rather than the actual toxic a-hole.

Yank 'em aside for a 1v1 lecture and the rest of us work on BEING the open and welcoming people the fandom is supposed to be.

....do NOT tell me if we've tried that, there's a pretty severe rule (2.1) against sharing private info and it counts correspondence as private.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 1, 2022)

To think the second leg of this horror story started because I tried to educate somebody on their ignorance of their religion. Road to hell is paved with good intentions and all I suppose. Might have been better to just report the person.


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## PercyD (Aug 1, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> It's unfortunately a perception thing.  All of us talking at once makes _us_ get mistaken for the toxic assholes rather than the actual toxic a-hole.
> 
> Yank 'em aside for a 1v1 lecture and the rest of us work on BEING the open and welcoming people the fandom is supposed to be.
> 
> ....do NOT tell me if we've tried that, there's a pretty severe rule (2.1) against sharing private info and it counts correspondence as private.


So?
I honestly have zero interest in being "open" or "welcoming" to people who consider me less than. I don't have to be either. I have zero tolerance for disrespect. I also have zero interest in lecturing people who are obviously not receptive. He hasn't changed, obviously. 

My solution has been to ignore them. Though one of y'all can get them banned if they break a rule.


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## Bababooey (Aug 1, 2022)

I know I contributed to the drama but can we shut up now? 
No one is going to change their minds. That's very clear. 
Stop talking to a wall and get back on topic or leave the thread.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Aug 1, 2022)

PercyD said:


> So?
> I honestly have zero interest in being "open" or "welcoming" to people who consider me less than. I don't have to be either. I have zero tolerance for disrespect. I also have zero interest in lecturing people who are obviously not receptive. He hasn't changed, obviously.
> 
> My solution has been to ignore them. Though one of y'all can get them banned if they break a rule.


.....I.... DID forget to be specific on who I wanted people to be open and welcoming to.  Whoops.

I've been trying to go full tactics here, but at this point I think I've said my piece.


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## KimberVaile (Aug 1, 2022)

Chomby said:


> I know I contributed to the drama but can we shut up now?
> No one is going to change their minds. That's very clear.
> Stop talking to a wall and get back on topic or leave the thread.


I feel I can agree with you here.

This seems to be more and more becoming a veil for old grudges to resurface. It's unproductive. Not that I don't get that Frank is bugging people some people here, I do. But the discussion is slowly shifting into the general disdain users seems to have with each other, it's extending past Frank at the moment.

So, I can plus 1 this suggestion.


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## Foxridley (Aug 1, 2022)

Add more things I hate in the furry community: Whatever the hell happened to this thread.


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## Bababooey (Aug 1, 2022)

I hate the pedo and zoophile apologists in the community. The most awful shit is excused as "just a mistake," followed by shit like, "they're such a good artist!"

No. Just no.

I also hate dogwhistlers that hide under a thin veil of hospitality when in reality, they're bigots. The only thing worse than an explicit bigot is a two-faced one. You know who you are. Don't contact me again.


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