# Upon the touchy subject of furries and real fur.



## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

okay, so I'm a taxidermist. I'll just blurt that out right now. 
my first fursuit head had real rabbit fur on it. I own a mink coat, a rabbit fur coat, some rabbit pelts, and I just bought a giant fox pelt on ebay that I'm going to stuff and make into a giant fox plushie pillow. 

for me, I absolutely LOVE animals. I have about over 20 animals (mostly birds and 2 cats) and am always accused of being "a cruel and selfish person" for owning furs. 

yeah, I inherited my mink coat from my great grandma. psh.
but besides that, I understand the negativities implied about furriers by furries. 
mostly about the loss of life for a simple skin. Hence why I try to stay away from farmed furs. Though, I do believe in fair hunt and animals' populations need to be kept in check... 

I was wondering how all you furs would feel about me making my giant fox pelt plushie and naming him "foxy" and pretending its my pet.

because I've wanted a fox as a pet, but hell there's no way I'd be responsible enough for a critter like that.

opinions? should all furriers be ousted and condemned?


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## TheNewfie (Nov 14, 2009)

I don't really care as long as you got the furs from a hunter a not some fram.


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## Unsilenced (Nov 14, 2009)

If you have it from inheritance, whatever. 

Hunting... well I suppose if it isn't endangered or anything... 

I'd still rather that people not buy fur, but won't throw animal blood on them or anything if they do.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

TheNewfie said:


> I don't really care as long as you got the furs from a hunter a not some fram.



yes. I agree with this too... D: I do however have a fox tail I paid $2 for that has sketchy origins, but I would never pay for a farmed pelt. those poor foxes in teeny tiny cages...

even the rabbit pelts I had were wild. 

although I dont have a problem with vintage or second hand things. because the money isnt going to the farmers. 

I have a rabbit coat I'm trying to restore right now... paid $4 for it at goodwill.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

Unsilenced said:


> If you have it from inheritance, whatever.
> 
> Hunting... well I suppose if it isn't endangered or anything...
> 
> I'd still rather that people not buy fur, but won't throw animal blood on them or anything if they do.



I really like that in my state they have a "fair hunt" rule. that means anything that isnt a specific pursuit is illegal. 

ie; trapping, snaring, or baiting is illegal. because it catches nonspecific targets and isnt fair to the animal. 
also, people's cats.


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## TheNewfie (Nov 14, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> yes. I agree with this too... D: I do however have a fox tail I paid $2 for that has sketchy origins, but I would never pay for a farmed pelt. those poor foxes in teeny tiny cages...
> 
> even the rabbit pelts I had were wild.
> 
> ...



What about snaring?


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## Armaetus (Nov 14, 2009)

I really don't give a shit what happens on the farms because 1) Not a fox character, 2) Not a PETA wacko and 3) not an animal lover.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

TheNewfie said:


> What about snaring?



didnt buy it in my state... but funny thing. there are holes in 'em. looks like buckshot.

@_@ ok. so I bought them from some hillbillies in kentucky for $3 each. home tanned. rather crappily, but they have an interesting pattern.
it was my souvenier.

collecting dead animals prevents me for hoarding alive ones.


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## TheNewfie (Nov 14, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> didnt buy it in my state... but funny thing. there are holes in 'em. looks like buckshot.
> 
> @_@ ok. so I bought them from some hillbillies in kentucky for $3 each. home tanned. rather crappily, but they have an interesting pattern.
> it was my souvenier.
> ...



just to be clear you know  what snaring is right? i.e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBnOFX8mGjE

hope that video does't start a shit storm


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 14, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> okay, so I'm a taxidermist. I'll just blurt that out right now.
> my first fursuit head had real rabbit fur on it. I own a mink coat, a rabbit fur coat, some rabbit pelts, and I just bought a giant fox pelt on ebay that I'm going to stuff and make into a giant fox plushie pillow.
> 
> for me, I absolutely LOVE animals. I have about over 20 animals (mostly birds and 2 cats) and am always accused of being "a cruel and selfish person" for owning furs.
> ...



Not something I would agree with, especially if it was farmed furrs, I don't agree with killing an animal just for the furcoat, however I know some people choose to have their pets stuffed when they pass on. I am not the typew of person to hate someone because of an interest they have, if you want to make a stuffed fox plushie, go for it.


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## xcliber (Nov 14, 2009)

Personally, I'm a little split on the issue. We kill hundreds of animals for food, leather, etc. I think it's ok to use real fur, as long as you also use the rest of the animal too, or didn't kill it _just_ so you could get its fur.

I do think that killing an animal is cruel since it has just as much right (or more in some cases >.>) to live and be free as any human. The only exception being for food. Simple as that. We have to kill other animals to eat and live (Food Chain). And a bullet to the head is far more humane that being mauled to death by another animal. (In the case where a rabbit encounters a carnivore larger than itself)

So yeah, whatever. Just remember what we, as humans, did to animals when aliens or our robot overlords decide to harvest humans for energy. If we have the right to do that to animals, then they most certainly have the right to do that to us. They are the dominant and most powerful species after all.  (well maybe not the robots, but whatever. that's not the point)


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## Geek (Nov 14, 2009)

- Real fur doesnt really bother me.
- Fake fur should only be bought instead of real.


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## Lobo Roo (Nov 14, 2009)

I think it's ridiculous. We don't NEED to kill animals for their fur - before mass production of clothing? Sure. Now, there's no point. Wear fake fur if you think fur looks good, otherwise, what's the point? 

Sure, I would say it's fine if the animal was treated correctly - wild killed, and not killed JUST for it's fur, but using all parts of the animal. However, that's not where most fur comes from, and even I find that pretty pointless. Why do you want to wear the carcass of another animal? It's disgusting. If my dog died, I wouldn't skin it and wear it as a coat. 


On the note of hunting to keep the population in check - trust me, nature does just fine on it's own. There's checks and balances in nature that don't include some idiot with a shotgun out shooting animals because he thinks it's macho. I eat hunted meat, and if you hunt only for the wild game meat, I think that's cool. Hunting for sport is just stupid.


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## WatchfulStorm (Nov 14, 2009)

As many others are saying, I feel it's ok if it's hunted and not farmed. Also, the animal shouldn't have only been killed for it's fur. If you kill it, you should eat it.


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## lupinealchemist (Nov 14, 2009)

Don't know if I should say this but, my father is a seasonal fur trapper. I don't care for him mainly because he's an alcoholic, drug abusing redneck. I got annoyed when he showed me a dead coyote last christmas. Setting traps one day then days later claim your spoils. Any that are still alive you kill with a .22 revolver, mercy killing or execution, you decide. I know this because I've done it one season long time ago.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

Lobo Roo said:


> I think it's ridiculous. We don't NEED to kill animals for their fur - before mass production of clothing? Sure. Now, there's no point. Wear fake fur if you think fur looks good, otherwise, what's the point?
> 
> Sure, I would say it's fine if the animal was treated correctly - wild killed, and not killed JUST for it's fur, but using all parts of the animal. However, that's not where most fur comes from, and even I find that pretty pointless. Why do you want to wear the carcass of another animal? It's disgusting. If my dog died, I wouldn't skin it and wear it as a coat.
> 
> ...




well, for one because of what man has done to nature, deer populations NEED to be kept in check, or they'd starve themselves by overpopulation. 

also, might just be me but; I feel a connection to dead animals just as I feel connected to alive ones. one of the reasons why I got the fox pelt was to treat it as a pampered pet. (yeah I'm fucking insane) I even have a styrofoam insulated box that I bought for it that I labeled "foxy's home". I think it's almost like when you're a kid and you name your stuffed animals and play with them and they have their own personalities. 
then again, I've been playing with dead animals for years. I actually have a good number of my pets stuffed. (all birds) and that is why I learned taxidermy in the first place. I actually respect the dead animals.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

lupinealchemist said:


> Don't know if I should say this but, my father is a seasonal fur trapper. I don't care for him mainly because he's an alcoholic, drug abusing redneck. I got annoyed when he showed me a dead coyote last christmas. Setting traps one day then days later claim your spoils. Any that are still alive you kill with a .22 revolver, mercy killing or execution, you decide. I know this because I've done it one season long time ago.



yeah, I've seen pretty ugly things. even animals being skinned alive and their still alive bodies being tossed aside as they writhe in pain. 

and yes, it is very hard to tell which is humanely shot and killed and which suffered incredible merciless slaughter, if not impossible. Hence why alot of people tend to stay away from real fur at all.

if it were up to me, I'd prefer to shoot and kill my own animals. even farm them. because I would know they had a good fulfilling life before being humanely put down. 

*cough* I raise chickens. they taste good.


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## icecold24 (Nov 14, 2009)

Because of the advent of artificial fur, I'm not particularly keen on using real fur for anything under any circumstances.


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## Icarus (Nov 14, 2009)

I, personally, don't agree with it.
But if it's from hunted game and it's dead (instead of skinned alive like in certain furring farms) then there's really nothing bad about it.  Early humans used skins and pelts from their game animals in order to keep them warm during winter, to make houses, and to make tapestries.  So in a way, we owe the hunted animals our lives in a lot of cases (early human based).  
But still, since times have changed and we now have the technology to synthesize a fur-like polymer that has roughly the same feel as animal fur I find it appalling that most furring farms are still in existence.  We don't need theirs anymore, we have evolved our brains to the point where we have found a need and filled it via technology.  It's unnecessary for animal lives to continue to die for the sake of wearing fur.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Nargle (Nov 14, 2009)

Fur farms are plain cruel, and I don't agree with them. However, I don't mind hunted fur, so long as the animals being hunted aren't a crucial part of the ecosystem, and their absence won't upset the balance of the ecosystem. One such animal I can think of is wolves. In many places, the deer population is getting out of control, and wolves (And hunters) are necessary to keep their numbers under control so they don't creep into human territory and destroy their forests. In such places, the number of wolves is dwindling already, so they shouldn't be hunted. However, animals like rabbits and such, I don't mind. Oh yeah, and they have to be humanely hunted and killed.

Also, I find it retarded how most people that will exclaim that you are a cruel, selfish jerk for wearing fur will also be eating a hamburger and walking/driving away in his leather boots and leather car seats. 

But yeah, I prefer faux fur for projects, but I don't even really like fur (Real or fake) in general. Just my preference. I prefer wood and soft leather for furniture, and leather/cloth clothing.


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## Deleted member 3615 (Nov 14, 2009)

*deleted post*


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## Zrcalo (Nov 14, 2009)

DJ-Moogle said:


> It's 2009 AD not 2009 BC



brb let me get my babylon slaves.


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## KirbyCowFox (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm against fur farms, but I really don't see a big problem with animals being killed for their fur.  I, myself, own a rabbit pelt bought from a thrift store.  Hopefully one day I'll be able to get a possum taxi plush commissioned from this one girl I met on deviantart.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 15, 2009)

KirbyCowFox said:


> I'm against fur farms, but I really don't see a big problem with animals being killed for their fur.  I, myself, own a rabbit pelt bought from a thrift store.  Hopefully one day I'll be able to get a possum taxi plush commissioned from this one girl I met on deviantart.



a taxidermy plush?
that's what I plan on doing with my fox!


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## onewingedweasel (Nov 15, 2009)

I love real fur.  
I also like taxidermy.  I think its an awesome art form.
Id prefer fur was only from hunted, well treated and/or animals also used for food but not enough to protest it, or not wear it.


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## Nargle (Nov 15, 2009)

Dead animal plushy? Ewwwww e.e


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## Telnac (Nov 15, 2009)

I have a rabbit fur hat that keeps me WARM even when it's -20F out.

I also have a leather belt.

Seriously, what's the difference between the two?  Is it b/c the rabbit's cuter than the cow that people care?


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## Shadowwolf (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm a bit of a taxidermist myself (a collector of dead things is a more appropriate description), so I'm okay with real fur. But I strongly disagree with fur trapping, fur farming, or any killing of an animal for the sole purpose of their skin. It's pointless, and it's not worth it. All the pelts I have were either collected from animals that died of natural causes or whose bodies were also used for meat. I would not be able to sleep at night if I knew that I was promoting the fur farm industry by purchasing their materials.

That being said, carting around a plushie of any kind and calling it your pet, is a little really weird.


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## Kanin (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm against it, the animals end up being only used for there, they basically kill the animal for no reason, it's pretty stupid. But I'm completely fine with stuff like leather, because more than just the skin is used.


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## Brazen (Nov 15, 2009)

So you're into things like fursuits and plushies which are really gay but with real fur, which is really manly. 

Go make yourself a fursuit out of the pelts of animals you tracked down and shot yourself, you'll be the ultimate badass within the fandom.


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## Duality Jack (Nov 15, 2009)

Apathy,t keeps me warm but i have other options. my opinion :if you eat the animal why not use its fur?


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## Cute_Wolfy (Nov 15, 2009)

real fur looks awesome... ON ANIMALS
why u have to torture an animal(especially the hunters)while you can get fake fur?(there arent huge differences between them)
i am against killing animals for only that purpose.


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## KirbyCowFox (Nov 15, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> a taxidermy plush?
> that's what I plan on doing with my fox!



Awesome!  Those things look so cute!
http://leopardpaws.deviantart.com/gallery/


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## Telnac (Nov 15, 2009)

Cute_Wolfy said:


> real fur looks awesome... ON ANIMALS
> why u have to torture an animal(especially the hunters)while you can get fake fur?(there arent huge differences between them)
> i am against killing animals for only that purpose.


I've tried fake fur hats before, but they don't come even close to being as warm as my rabbit fur hat.  When it hits -20F and I'm outside shoveling the snow, that makes a BIG difference, since you lose most of your body heat through your head.

I'm against wearing fur just for fashion or cosmetic reasons.  But when real fur is more functional than the fake stuff, I'll wear real fur.


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## EinTheCorgi (Nov 15, 2009)

i dont care as long as you use the rest of the little critter i really dont mind 

like i have a turtle shell frisbee because my dad likes turtle meat and he made the shell into a frisbee for me and used the bottom for a knee pad i never did get the second pad because he stopped eating turtle because he got sick off that one


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## Duality Jack (Nov 15, 2009)

KirbyCowFox said:


> Awesome!  Those things look so cute!
> http://leopardpaws.deviantart.com/gallery/


Im confused does this guy have a pet fox of roes he wear foxes?


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## tikian12 (Nov 15, 2009)

I mean, maybe the collar of a coat could be real. But the entire coat is excessive. Anything more than a small part of clothing if it has to be fur should be fake.


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## KirbyCowFox (Nov 15, 2009)

The Drunken Ace said:


> Im confused does this guy have a pet fox of roes he wear foxes?



No, she's a taxedermist.  She doesn't wear coats as far as I know, but she's friends with a tannery that primarily gets their animals from roadkill


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Nov 15, 2009)

It seems like a stupid reason to kill and animal but if it's dead anyway... We kill animals for meat and leather, I suppose furs not really all that different.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> It seems like a stupid reason to kill and animal but if it's dead anyway... We kill animals for meat and leather, I suppose furs not really all that different.



Now I feel guilty for having a leather wallet v.v


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## Waggable (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't like the idea of using real fur for things. This being said I have a cow hide leather jacket that I have warn for about 10 years now and I love it... Does this make me a hypocrite?


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Nov 15, 2009)

I know remembered a joke about the topic.

Why are people more opposed to fur than leather?
It's safer to harass old women than motorbike gangs.


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## Waggable (Nov 15, 2009)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> It's safer to harass old women than motorbike gangs.




LOL hahaha


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## Vatz (Nov 15, 2009)

I understand that we kill animals every day for food and various supplies (hide, leather, etc.), but I would never wear fur from an animal unless my life depended on it (i.e., lost in the Arctic). Still, I would rather not shoot/snare/whatever a canine, vulpine, or feline--those are three types of animals that I connect with on a deep psychological level, and I'd much rather use faux fur (which can be pretty warm) or some other synthetic material like Gore-Tex.

However, if said animal had died naturally or because they were crossing the street at the wrong time (or something similar to this) and somebody had just happened to find the animal and take the fur off, then I'd be fine with that. I can't stand it when people trophy hunt, though.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Vatz said:


> I understand that we kill animals every day for food and various supplies (hide, leather, etc.), but I would never wear fur from an animal unless my life depended on it (i.e., lost in the Arctic). Still, I would rather not shoot/snare/whatever a canine, vulpine, or feline--those are three types of animals that I connect with on a deep psychological level, and I'd much rather use faux fur (which can be pretty warm) or some other synthetic material like Gore-Tex.
> 
> However, if said animal had died naturally or because they were crossing the street at the wrong time (or something similar to this) and somebody had just happened to find the animal and take the fur off, then I'd be fine with that. I can't stand it when people trophy hunt, though.



What difference does fur make? You STILL have to kill an animal for food, hide AND leather, remember what Leather is? Cow skin, hide or what ever. So what difference does killing for fur make if the other three is ok? 

Do we need leather wallets? no. Do we need leather coats? no. Do we need any leather clothing? not really no. So tell me, wtf difference does fur make?


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## Gavrill (Nov 15, 2009)

It's hypocritical to be against using the furs of "cute" animals while you use leather products. 

I'm an amateur taxidermist myself, and all I can say is that as long as you use all of the animal, there shouldn't be a problem.

As for fur farms, there are worse things we harvest from animals. Fur farms aren't any different from regular farms.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> .
> 
> As for fur farms, there are worse things we harvest from animals. Fur farms aren't any different from regular farms.



Really? at least meat farms KILL the animal before they butcher it. Fur farms very often skin the animal alive. I see that as a big difference from regular farms.


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## Gavrill (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Really? at least meat farms KILL the animal before they butcher it. Fur farms very often skin the animal alive. I see that as a big difference from regular farms.


Who told you that? Usually animals are killed before they're skinned. Otherwise they'd struggle, which could rip the fur. :V


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> Who told you that? Usually animals are killed before they're skinned. Otherwise they'd struggle, which could rip the fur. :V



Read through the thread it was mentioned at least once somewhere. And I am sure I once heard about it on a documentary once quite sometime ago...

EDIT: I agree with the part about being hypocritical of fur if you own leather. I have a leather wallet, but it was a gift, not something I'd buy with my own money.


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## Vatz (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> What difference does fur make? You STILL have to kill an animal for food, hide AND leather, remember what Leather is? Cow skin, hide or what ever. So what difference does killing for fur make if the other three is ok?
> 
> Do we need leather wallets? no. Do we need leather coats? no. Do we need any leather clothing? not really no. So tell me, wtf difference does fur make?


 

Well, you might as well get pissed off as Zrcalo for starting this thread in the first place, but as I seem to have noticed, you aren't even a little phased that he is perfectly fine with hunting animals for sport--which I'm not. All I'm saying is that except for those three families of animals--and I don't know why, it's just a sort of psychological block on my part--I would rather kill an animal than die myself, but I find the idea of hunting SPECIFICALLY for sport or trophy-collecting sick. No, we don't NEED leather wallets--but we don't really need wallets at all, do we? Or pants. Or coats. Hell, we don't even need clothes, but we wear them anyway, don't we? How the fuck should I know what the difference is between leather and fur? They both come from animals--it's just that I find fur articles sickening, and I don't usually find leather bothering.
And, by the way, fur is a HELL of a lot warmer than leather, if you really want an obvious difference that I doubt you could think of yourself.


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## Gavrill (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Read through the thread it was mentioned at least once somewhere. And I am sure I once heard about it on a documentary once quite sometime ago...
> 
> EDIT: I agree with the part about being hypocritical of fur if you own leather. I have a leather wallet, but it was a gift, not something I'd buy with my own money.


I looked up wikipedia and it doesn't mention the animals being skinned alive as being part of the controversy. I'll look up more but I don't think it's practiced.

Edit: In China it's practiced to save costs on fur. Easy solution: Don't buy Chinese furs.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Vatz said:


> Well, you might as well get pissed off as Zrcalo for starting this thread in the first place, but as I seem to have noticed, you aren't even a little phased that he is perfectly fine with hunting animals for sport--which I'm not. All I'm saying is that except for those three families of animals--and I don't know why, it's just a sort of psychological block on my part--I would rather kill an animal than die myself, but I find the idea of hunting SPECIFICALLY for sport or trophy-collecting sick. No, we don't NEED leather wallets--but we don't really need wallets at all, do we? Or pants. Or coats. Hell, we don't even need clothes, but we wear them anyway, don't we? How the fuck should I know what the difference is between leather and fur? They both come from animals--it's just that I find fur articles sickening, and I don't usually find leather bothering.
> And, by the way, fur is a HELL of a lot warmer than leather, if you really want an obvious difference that I doubt you could think of yourself.



If Zrcalo wants to hunt for sport that is up to him. I could yell at him if I wanted but I doubt it would make any difference. I have said before somewhere on these forums that I don't agree with hunting for the fun of it. 

What I was getting at leather and fur wise is, that an animal has to die to get either, same with meat, and more often or not on some type of farm, this is why I fail to see why some people are fine with farming for leather, hide and meat but not fur, when really there is not much difference between the farms.

No, I don't like hunting for sport, so I highly dissagree with fox hunting for example, however I am not going to chase a hunt protesting the fact I don't like what they do, because I doubt if I did so, that it would change anything. I am not going to dislike Zrcalo for hunting for sport, I just dislike what he does.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> I looked up wikipedia and it doesn't mention the animals being skinned alive as being part of the controversy. I'll look up more but I don't think it's practiced.
> 
> Edit: In China it's practiced to save costs on fur. Easy solution: Don't buy Chinese furs.



I was about to say, it was a very long time ago I saw the documentary about it, so maybe these days things in the fur farm industry has changed.

I wouldn't by fur anyway XD, not with my own money.


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## Vatz (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I wouldn't by fur anyway XD, not with my own money.


 

So if you buy fur with somebody else's money, it's perfectly okay?

EDIT: Damn, I'm confused. Not meaning to imply anything.


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## Wyla (Nov 15, 2009)

No problem with it but I'd prefer it wasn't farmed, or that the rest of the animal was used. I have a lovely reindeer pelt from a Norwegian reindeer farmer - the steak I bought with it was delicious <3 My longterm plan is to raise and breed rabbits for fur and I know I'll sure as hell be tanning those pelts.

I have a bunny from the local butcher in the freezer right now as it so happens :v


Ninja-edit: Re the animals being skinned alive - I realise there is that one video that PETA (giggle) released, but it is not standard practise. Why would a furrier risk getting bitten, damaging the pelt, and also lengthen the skinning process? Yeah. They wouldn't.  :l


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## Vatz (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> If Zrcalo wants to hunt for sport that is up to him. I could yell at him if I wanted but I doubt it would make any difference. I have said before somewhere on these forums that I don't agree with hunting for the fun of it.
> 
> What I was getting at leather and fur wise is, that an animal has to die to get either, same with meat, and more often or not on some type of farm, this is why I fail to see why some people are fine with farming for leather, hide and meat but not fur, when really there is not much difference between the farms.
> 
> No, I don't like hunting for sport, so I highly dissagree with fox hunting for example, however I am not going to chase a hunt protesting the fact I don't like what they do, because I doubt if I did so, that it would change anything. I am not going to dislike Zrcalo for hunting for sport, I just dislike what he does.


Same here, but like I keep saying, _certain _animals I would kill if it meant my survival--others, like foxes, I would let go and just keep searching. Don't ask me why.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Vatz said:


> So if you buy fur with somebody else's money, it's perfectly okay?
> 
> EDIT: Damn, I'm confused. Not meaning to imply anything.



Ooops sorry, I kinda expected that response after I posted.

No, I wouldn't go out and buy fur myself, or leather actually myself but if it was bought for me as a gift (such as my wallet was) Then I would accept it to be polite.


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## Vatz (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Ooops sorry, I kinda expected that response after I posted.
> 
> No, I wouldn't go out and buy fur myself, or leather actually myself but if it was bought for me as a gift (such as my wallet was) Then I would accept it to be polite.


 

Me, I would just go ahead and buy leather products, as the animal is already long-dead anyways. As for fur, I would accept it as a gift, but I would never buy it unless it was faux.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Vatz said:


> Me, I would just go ahead and buy leather products, as the animal is already long-dead anyways. As for fur, I would accept it as a gift, but I would never buy it unless it was faux.



Actually, after reading this and thinking about it, I probably would buy leather.


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## Xx WoLF (Nov 15, 2009)

My opinion: If you want real fur, then you need to hunt for it and get it yourself in a humane way. No traps, baiting, etc.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 15, 2009)

Xx WoLF said:


> My opinion: If you want real fur, then you need to hunt for it and get it yourself in a humane way. No traps, baiting, etc.



What about meat farming? hide and leather?


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## pheonix (Nov 15, 2009)

If the animal is not hurt then real fur is fine, if the animal was killed for the fur it's not right, if you just hunted something like a deer or such then I don't mind as long as it was hunted for food or pop control rather then hunted for the fur.


----------



## Wreth (Nov 15, 2009)

Eurgh, I feel ill.


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## Skidd (Nov 15, 2009)

I totally condone the use of fur if it comes as a byproduct of livestock production -- leather, sheepskin, and rabbit fur are perfectly fine in my book, because they're produced as food. I don't mind taxidermy, though I'm disliking the idea of hunting endangered or vulnerable species.

The production of Farmed fur where the animal is killed for it's fur specifically... that I'm going to say that I don't like so much. Rabbits are fine, of course, because they're produced for meat, not specifically for fur. 

Another thing I would completely condone and support is if the animal died of natural causes. I saw a picture a little while back on flickr of a ringtail that had been killed, but it had a lovely tail. Taking the tail or other useable fur in that instance is totally fine in my opinion.

I've got a lovely suede coat that used to be my moms. Were someone to splash me in paint for it, I would be wringing some human necks, I think. 

This is a whole new dimension to the subject... but I know at least some groups like PeTA are completely against all use of any animal fiber -- no wool, no cashmere... I find that really odd, since the animal isn't harmed in any way from it. In fact, I know there are people out there that take the FUR THEIR DOG HAS SHED and spin it into a fiber that they knit or crochet or whatever with. I find it extremely odd that someone would find that bad. Cashmere is so niiiiiice, too. It's like I can snuggle my rabbit all the time. x3

Though for those that are picky about fur... careful in buying fake fur sometimes... I know that sometimes tanuki (raccoon dog) fur is produced in China and sold overseas as "fake" fur. 
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/07/dog.fur/index.html


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## Telnac (Nov 15, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Really? at least meat farms KILL the animal before they butcher it. Fur farms very often skin the animal alive. I see that as a big difference from regular farms.


That sounds like the sort of crap PETA tells people.  Who in their right mind would skin an animal alive?  There's no reason doing that would produce better furs.  Quite the contrary, in fact.

[Edit]
I just did a Google search and read the articles from the top sites I found.  To my utter amazement (or lack thereof), the text from site to site is almost identical.  The site all that stuff originates from?

http://www.peta.org/feat/chineseFurFarms/index.asp

Yup, this is from PETA all right.  I think I might buy a mink coat just to spit in PETA's face.  Oh, and I'll make sure it's made in China.


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## Trpdwarf (Nov 15, 2009)

Personally, I don't like the idea of using real fur period unless it comes from a reservation or something. Otherwise it probably came from a fur farm...and...some of those places can be damn near cruel to the animals they raise for the use of their pelts.

And then...what of the left over parts? Do they use them at all?

If you are going to use fur or wear fur, try to get it from a good source that treats the animals well, and uses as much as the animal as possible. That's my thing.


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## Gavrill (Nov 15, 2009)

The thing about fur farms is that they cage animals that are not meant to be captive, like minks, who usually have an extensive home range.Foxes have even been known to cannibalize each other in fur farms.


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## Trpdwarf (Nov 15, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> The thing about fur farms is that they cage animals that are not meant to be captive, like minks, who usually have an extensive home range.Foxes have even been known to cannibalize each other in fur farms.



Yeah...it's the stress from being forced into a life that is completely 100 against how they normally are. Honestly I hate fox farms. I hate gator farms too. I hate mink farms too. I don't mind it when someone buys from a reservation, or they are using skin/fur from an animal where the meat is eaten and such...but it seems like a waste of life to raise it just for the pelt.

I'd rather see as much as the animal used as possible.


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## Gavrill (Nov 15, 2009)

Trpdwarf said:


> Yeah...it's the stress from being forced into a life that is completely 100 against how they normally are. Honestly I hate fox farms. I hate gator farms too. I hate mink farms too. I don't mind it when someone buys from a reservation, or they are using skin/fur from an animal where the meat is eaten and such...but it seems like a waste of life to raise it just for the pelt.
> 
> I'd rather see as much as the animal used as possible.


Which is why, if/when I become a taxidermist, I'll be offering a free cooler for the meat of whatever animal is being hunted (probably deer). I'd just hate for it to go to waste.

I think it's less cruel to kill an animal in the wild and use its fur than to raise it in confined conditions.


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## Trpdwarf (Nov 15, 2009)

Shenzebo said:


> Which is why, if/when I become a taxidermist, I'll be offering a free cooler for the meat of whatever animal is being hunted (probably deer). I'd just hate for it to go to waste.
> 
> I think it's less cruel to kill an animal in the wild and use its fur than to raise it in confined conditions.



There are hunters out there, they hunt the deer, chop it's head off, and then leave the body. Or they skin and leave the body. I've seen such grisly spectacles back when I had to take long road trips. That's a better way to go to offer to take the meat, but it would be nice if you wouldn't have to even do that and people would eat the meat of the animals they kill.

It makes me sick. I want to strangle people like that. You must feel like such big men and women, to kill an animal just so you can hang it's head over your fire place or what ever. Is you're penis so small, or boobs so tiny that you need an ego boost by wasting life like that?

Er...that said back on topic, if one really wants to use real fur on a fur-suit even just for specific parts, I think it is better off doing it as a recycling thing. Zeke and I will take old leather jackets that are about to be binned, and scrap the leather and re-use it for costume making. I imagine someone could do the same if they are making an unusual costume and some parts need to be made of real fur. Why not hit the thrift stores or look for those who happen to be trashing fur coats (it would surprise you that people will do this), and re-use the fur? Then you are extending the use of a product that needed an animal to die for it to be made.


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## Wreth (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm completely against the use of fur, any source, any method.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 15, 2009)

Trpdwarf said:


> There are hunters out there, they hunt the deer, chop it's head off, and then leave the body. Or they skin and leave the body. I've seen such grisly spectacles back when I had to take long road trips. That's a better way to go to offer to take the meat, but it would be nice if you wouldn't have to even do that and people would eat the meat of the animals they kill.
> 
> It makes me sick. I want to strangle people like that. You must feel like such big men and women, to kill an animal just so you can hang it's head over your fire place or what ever. Is you're penis so small, or boobs so tiny that you need an ego boost by wasting life like that?
> 
> Er...that said back on topic, if one really wants to use real fur on a fur-suit even just for specific parts, I think it is better off doing it as a recycling thing. Zeke and I will take old leather jackets that are about to be binned, and scrap the leather and re-use it for costume making. I imagine someone could do the same if they are making an unusual costume and some parts need to be made of real fur. Why not hit the thrift stores or look for those who happen to be trashing fur coats (it would surprise you that people will do this), and re-use the fur? Then you are extending the use of a product that needed an animal to die for it to be made.



most of the time the people who do that are poachers.
it's actually illegal to leave an animal carcass to rot if you've shot it. very heavy fines.


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## Trpdwarf (Nov 16, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> most of the time the people who do that are poachers.
> it's actually illegal to leave an animal carcass to rot if you've shot it. very heavy fines.



I'd like to poach them. Stupid idiots.

That said if you have no intention of eating the meat, I don't see the point of hunting it at all. I don't care if you "properly dispose of the body".

Find use for the skin. Eat the damn meat. Use what can be used of the body and what can't, why not pay some damn respect and bury it?


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## Ratte (Nov 16, 2009)

Doesn't bother me too much since I have some furs of my own (rabbit).  Hunting doesn't bother me too much when it comes to furs, but farming is kinda :|


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## Telnac (Nov 16, 2009)

Now that I know all hysteria about fur farms comes from PETA, I believe it's not only OK to wear fur, it's a requirement for any moral person to do so.  And it must come from a fur farm, especially one in China.

I really don't care what you guys are saying about the evils that take place in fur farms, because I simply believe all of it's a bold-faced lie.  PETA has never told the truth about anything.  They find isolated instances and blow it so out of proportion that you think all nearly all of humanity exists just to torture and kill small animals for the fun of it.  They bitch about the Humane Society euthanizing animals, even they go about killing kittens themselves at their headquarters.  At least the Humane Society goes about it in a manner that's safe & painless.  PETA does it w/o proper training or equipment.  I can't think of a greater example of hypocrisy than that.

So excuse me for not buying into the whole notion of the evils of the fur industry.  It's all A-OK in my book.


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## Ratte (Nov 16, 2009)

Telnac said:


> Now that I know all hysteria about fur farms comes from PETA, I believe it's not only OK to wear fur, it's a requirement for any moral person to do so.  And it must come from a fur farm, especially one in China.
> 
> I really don't care what you guys are saying about the evils that take place in fur farms, because I simply believe all of it's a bold-faced lie.  PETA has never told the truth about anything.  They find isolated instances and blow it so out of proportion that you think all nearly all of humanity exists just to torture and kill small animals for the fun of it.  They bitch about the Humane Society euthanizing animals, even they go about killing kittens themselves at their headquarters.  At least the Humane Society goes about it in a manner that's safe & painless.  PETA does it w/o proper training or equipment.  I can't think of a greater example of hypocrisy than that.
> 
> So excuse me for not buying into the whole notion of the evils of the fur industry.  It's all A-OK in my book.



To be honest I'm pretty indifferent.

Then again, you and I both live in states full of farms in general :V


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## the_donut_master (Nov 16, 2009)

*Sigh* Ignore what I voted. I like fur, too, but I wouldn't use it for everything... I would use fur very sparingly. I am into taxidermy, too, but I've never tried it. I want to make a life sized wolf using faux fur. That's how I plan on doing my taxidermy.


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## Telnac (Nov 16, 2009)

the_donut_master said:


> *Sigh* Ignore what I voted. I like fur, too, but I wouldn't use it for everything... I would use fur very sparingly. I am into taxidermy, too, but I've never tried it. I want to make a life sized wolf using faux fur. That's how I plan on doing my taxidermy.


Yeah, a fursuit made from real fur would be a bit excessive.   (Not to mention, uber-hot, stinky, hard to maintain, et cetera, et cetera.)


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## Telnac (Nov 16, 2009)

Ratte said:


> Then again, you and I both live in states full of farms in general :V


Quite true.    Yeah, I've heard some horror stories (no doubt originating from PETA) about cow farms too.  None of that's true around here.  All the cow farms I've seen give their cows plenty to land to roam in, to relax and even have fun.  I didn't even know cows could frolic until I moved here.  These cows aren't being kept in horrid conditions.  If anything they're pampered!

[Edit] Crap, I meant to toss that into the post above.  Sorry about the double post.


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## Ratte (Nov 16, 2009)

Telnac said:


> Quite true.    Yeah, I've heard some horror stories (no doubt originating from PETA) about cow farms too.  None of that's true around here.  All the cow farms I've seen give their cows plenty to land to roam in, to relax and even have fun.  I didn't even know cows could frolic until I moved here.  These cows aren't being kept in horrid conditions.  If anything they're pampered!
> 
> [Edit] Crap, I meant to toss that into the post above.  Sorry about the double post.



No big deal.

Yeah, the cows around here have huge areas to roam around and eat.  Very few areas have anything penned off, and the places that do tend to be nearer the city, anyway, and have less of a herd.

But I see cows and elk farms everywhere around here.  I think there was a really bad case of chronic wasting in a Pine Island elk farm, but chronic wasting is in the wild, too.  Just have to be careful and inspect the brains and its functions if and when you're going to butcher.  DO NOT EAT MEAT FROM DOWNED COWS, HOLY SHIT.


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## Telnac (Nov 16, 2009)

Ratte said:


> No big deal.
> 
> Yeah, the cows around here have huge areas to roam around and eat.  Very few areas have anything penned off, and the places that do tend to be nearer the city, anyway, and have less of a herd.
> 
> But I see cows and elk farms everywhere around here.  I think there was a really bad case of chronic wasting in a Pine Island elk farm, but chronic wasting is in the wild, too.  Just have to be careful and inspect the brains and its functions if and when you're going to butcher.  DO NOT EAT MEAT FROM DOWNED COWS, HOLY SHIT.


CWD's in the deer herds here, too.  But they say it's safe to eat the deer meat from infected deer.  Not like I'd try; I don't eat venison.


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## Ratte (Nov 16, 2009)

Telnac said:


> CWD's in the deer herds here, too.  But they say it's safe to eat the deer meat from infected deer.  Not like I'd try; I don't eat venison.



Venison is pretty good if done correctly.

Deer is one thing, but cows, I think, are another.

Since CWD/any other type of encephalopathy is a prion disease, it happens very slowly and is uncurable, taking sometimes up to ten years to reach to a full effect.  Prions aren't able to be killed by aseptic treatment or basic "sterile" heat and must be subjected to very high pressure and very high temperatures for about 15 minutes.

I still wouldn't eat meat from a downed cow if I knew what cow my meat was coming from.


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## ZiggyTheWolf (Nov 16, 2009)

The actual wearing of fur back in the day served a purpose which was to keep the wearer warm, and this is in the day that wearing fur was about the warmest one could get and it was a bi-product of hunting your dinner. Now with the amazing quality fake fur one can aquire and the need for the hunting the particular animals almost non-existent outside of population control and protecting farms i just dont really see the point of real fur.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 16, 2009)

Telnac said:


> Now that I know all hysteria about fur farms comes from PETA, I believe it's not only OK to wear fur, *it's a requirement for any moral person to do so*.  And it must come from a fur farm, especially one in China.
> 
> So excuse me for not buying into the whole notion of the evils of the fur industry.  It's all A-OK in my book.





Telnac said:


> CWD's in the deer herds here, too.  But they say it's safe to eat the deer meat from infected deer.  Not like I'd try; I don't eat venison.



I don't understand why it is a requirement for any moral person to do so. You make it sound like any person in their right mind would wear fur. It also sounds like you think people must wear fur.

As for venison, never tried it.


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## Ratte (Nov 16, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> As for venison, never tried it.



It's pretty good if you grill it after marinating it for a while.


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## HoneyPup (Nov 16, 2009)

I don't wear real fur, but I have nothing against those who do. 



Telnac said:


> Now that I know all hysteria about fur farms comes from PETA, I believe it's not only OK to wear fur, it's a requirement for any moral person to do so.  And it must come from a fur farm, especially one in China.
> 
> I really don't care what you guys are saying about the evils that take place in fur farms, because I simply believe all of it's a bold-faced lie.  PETA has never told the truth about anything.  They find isolated instances and blow it so out of proportion that you think all nearly all of humanity exists just to torture and kill small animals for the fun of it.  They bitch about the Humane Society euthanizing animals, even they go about killing kittens themselves at their headquarters.  At least the Humane Society goes about it in a manner that's safe & painless.  PETA does it w/o proper training or equipment.  I can't think of a greater example of hypocrisy than that.
> 
> So excuse me for not buying into the whole notion of the evils of the fur industry.  It's all A-OK in my book.


I don't buy into peta's exaggerated abuse stories either, but saying wearing fur-farmed fur should be a moral requirement is silly.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm okay with it on moral grounds, since I'm amoral, but isn't real fur higher-maintenance than fake?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 16, 2009)

HoneyPup said:


> I don't wear real fur, but I have nothing against those who do.
> 
> 
> *I don't buy into peta's exaggerated abuse stories either, but saying wearing fur-farmed fur should be a moral requirement is silly*.



From what I keep hearing about PETA (what does that actually stand for? ) I don't trust their stories either. And Telnac's part on wearing fur as a "moral requirement" sounded a little silly to me too.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> I'm okay with it on moral grounds, since I'm amoral, but isn't real fur higher-maintenance than fake?



I don't think I'd want to throw a real fur into the washing machine to clean it.


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## KirbyCowFox (Nov 16, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> From what I keep hearing about PETA *(what does that actually stand for? ) *I don't trust their stories either. And Telnac's part on wearing fur as a "moral requirement" sounded a little silly to me too.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'd want to throw a real fur into the washing machine to clean it.



People for the
Ethical
Treatment of
Animals

Or as I like to call it

People
Eating
Tasty
Animals


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 16, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> From what I keep hearing about PETA (what does that actually stand for? ) I don't trust their stories either. And Telnac's part on wearing fur as a "moral requirement" sounded a little silly to me too.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'd want to throw a real fur into the washing machine to clean it.


No duh. You have to have it dry-cleaned. And if you go too long without getting it dry-cleaned, IIRC, it starts to smell like hell squared.


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## Telnac (Nov 16, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I don't understand why it is a requirement for any moral person to do so. You make it sound like any person in their right mind would wear fur. It also sounds like you think people must wear fur.


It was hyperbole.  No, I wouldn't go out & buy fur from a fur farm in China just to spit in PETA's face.  But neither will I look down on anyone who does buy a fur item from any fur farm.

I'm still not fond of the idea of wearing fur simply as a fashion statement.  The reason I'd wear fur is the same reason I wear leather: it's functional.  Good quality real leather is some of the toughest clothing material in existence, and it's both warm and nearly waterproof.  Fur is far warmer than fake fur (a useful fact if you live in places where -20F isn't uncommon.)  For those reasons alone, I'm 100% cool with wearing fur.

And now that I know the claims of fur farms being so evil comes from PETA, I'm 100% cool with where the fur comes from, too.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> I'm okay with it on moral grounds, since I'm amoral, but isn't real fur higher-maintenance than fake?


Much so, yes.  My rabbit fur hat has had many repairs over the years.  If I was staying in Wisconsin, I would have bought another one for this winter.  But I don't think it'd be all that useful an item in Phoenix, Arizona!

For those who don't know what PETA's all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAt1z_TgPQ4&feature=related


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## SpartaDog (Nov 16, 2009)

I think farmed fur is wrong, because the animals are treated like dirt, crammed into tiny spaces, electrocuted up the ass, and not necessarily dead when they're skinned.

I don't LIKE wild-caught fur either, but I'm much more understanding here. I ONLY condone wild-caught hunting if a, human traps/killing methods are used, and b, if most of, if not the entirety of the animal is used.

I don't mind taxidermy for educational purposes, or if the skin was donated, but I think trophies are disgusting. "Oh look, I shot a 3 ft deer from 300 feet away with a high caliber rifle! I'm awesome!" Whatever, getting off on a tangent there.

Anyway, I personally would never, ever, EVER wear or buy a real fur, partially out of respect for the animal and partially because knowing what it is freaks me out. But that being said, I wouldn't necessarily scold someone for having real fur, if it was acquired under the right conditions.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 16, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> I think farmed fur is wrong, because the animals are treated like dirt, crammed into tiny spaces, electrocuted up the ass, and not necessarily dead when they're skinned.


What difference does it really make _how_ the animals are treated? They're _bred_ to be skinned. Yeah, it's not exactly kind, but so what?



> I don't LIKE wild-caught fur either, but I'm much more understanding here. I ONLY condone wild-caught hunting if a, human traps/killing methods are used, and b, if most of, if not the entirety of the animal is used.


I wanted to post a _Far Side_ here, but apparently Gary Larson sues anybody who posts them to the Internet. Bastard.



> I don't mind taxidermy for educational purposes, or if the skin was donated, but I think trophies are disgusting. "Oh look, I shot a 3 ft deer from 300 feet away with a high caliber rifle! I'm awesome!" Whatever, getting off on a tangent there.


This is the only thing you've said so far that's actually reasonable. People, if you're going to hunt just to put stuff in the den, go to Ikea or something.



> Anyway, I personally would never, ever, EVER wear or buy a real fur, partially out of respect for the animal and partially because knowing what it is freaks me out. But that being said, I wouldn't necessarily scold someone for having real fur, if it was acquired under the right conditions.


In other words, you'd totally scold people for having real fur, since fur collected under what you've dubbed the "right conditions" is about as common as seven-foot-tall Chinese men :V


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 16, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> I think farmed fur is wrong, because the animals are treated like dirt, crammed into tiny spaces, electrocuted up the ass, and not necessarily dead when they're skinned.



Can you prove this?



> I don't LIKE wild-caught fur either, but I'm much more understanding here. I ONLY condone wild-caught hunting if a, human traps/killing methods are used, and b, if most of, if not the entirety of the animal is used.



How in the fuck do you expect to "catch" a wild animal if we don't fucking use human traps/methods? Do we walk up to the animal and ask it nicely to get into a basket? "Please mr fox, I would be so grateful if you would get into my basket for me so I can skin you for your fur"



> I don't mind taxidermy for educational purposes, or if the skin was donated, but I think trophies are disgusting. "Oh look, I shot a 3 ft deer from 300 feet away with a high caliber rifle! I'm awesome!" Whatever, getting off on a tangent there.



Trophies are just stupid anyway. I agree here.



> Anyway, I personally would never, ever, EVER wear or buy a real fur, partially out of respect for the animal and partially because knowing what it is freaks me out. But that being said, I wouldn't necessarily scold someone for having real fur, if it was acquired under the right conditions.



What Rigor said.


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## PenningtontheSkunk (Nov 16, 2009)

-I prefer fake instead of real
-I really don't care if another person wears real
-Animals should be treated with the same amount of respect as people and givin more rights to enforce
-If I were to buy real I will hope its farm raised


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## PenningtontheSkunk (Nov 16, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> As for venison, never tried it.


 I tried the jerky version of it and it was delis. I want to try it grilled.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 16, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Can you prove this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. http://www.furisdead.com/page/filthybarn.jpg I'm pretty sure the SPCA would confiscate dogs or cats kept in these conditions.
http://www.furisdead.com/page/cannibalism.jpg There's a good chance he's not properly fed if he's feeding on his buddy, and even if he is, it's unsanitary for both humans and animals to leave rotting corpses just lying around in a cage. At least do something with it.

2. That was a typo, it was meant to say "humane". As in, don't use those leghold traps that tear the skin off and leave them there for however long until the hunter comes back to get them.

3. Hey look, someone is capable of agreeing with me on this topic!

4. Yeah, pretty much. I never said I found the norm to be acceptable.



And now, to Rigor:
1. Then why is a Kobe beef cow given 3 massages a day and fed on beer? It's bred to be killed and eaten, isn't it? If you were going to be killed, you'd rather just sit in a 4x4 cell, eat shit for every meal, and then have a pole shoved up your ass and 20000 volts sent through your body?

2. Don't know who or what that is.

3. Hey look, someone ELSE is capable of agreeing with me on this topic!

4. Again, absolutely.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 16, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> And now, to Rigor:
> 1. Then why is a Kobe beef cow given 3 massages a day and fed on beer?


Because the Japanese are _insane,_ you silly child.



> If you were going to be killed, you'd rather just sit in a 4x4 cell, eat shit for every meal, and then have a pole shoved up your ass and 20000 volts sent through your body?


Ah! Here we come to the part where animal-rights activists show how immature and tenuous their understanding of animal psychology is.
To put it bluntly, my dear, _I_ am demonstrably sentient. _A rabbit_ is demonstrably not sentient. Therefore, what _I_ would prefer is completely irrelevant as to what a rabbit would prefer.-

But I maintain that what an animal would prefer is quite irrelevant. These creatures are bred into cages and do not know any better.



> 2. Don't know who or what that is.


Wikipedia is your friend.



> 3. Hey look, someone ELSE is capable of agreeing with me on this topic!


You're dead wrong on everything else. Just thought I'd reiterate that.



> 4. Again, absolutely.


And exactly what gives you the right to play moral arbiter?


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## Scribbles_Ayashi (Nov 16, 2009)

Depending on the laws regarding pets where you live, in you can always get a tame fennec fox as a pet. They're pretty expensive and breeders are hard to come by, but such things exist.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 16, 2009)

Scribbles_Ayashi said:


> Depending on the laws regarding pets where you live, in you can always get a tame fennec fox as a pet. They're pretty expensive and breeders are hard to come by, but such things exist.


I've read about that. Apparently fennecs are the only species of fox ever to be successfully tamed.

They make some really unearthly sounds, though.


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## TDK (Nov 16, 2009)

I don't like real fur because i'm allergic to most of it, so if I can't enjoy it THEN NO ONE SHOULD :V


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 16, 2009)

I have a mink coat and it's _divine~_


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 16, 2009)

My friend had a mink car.


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## Hyasinth (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm against the farms. I have some fox tails and a skull from someone who gets them from found dead, and hunted stuff is okay too. I like having the bits and pieces, but not to wear.

And honestly there's some gorgeous fake fur out there, so I'd really rather wear that. Taxidermy is cool. Also- a plush fox pillow from a pelt is cool too.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 16, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Because the Japanese are _insane,_ you silly child.
> 
> Ah! Here we come to the part where animal-rights activists show how immature and tenuous their understanding of animal psychology is.
> To put it bluntly, my dear, _I_ am demonstrably sentient. _A rabbit_ is demonstrably not sentient. Therefore, what _I_ would prefer is completely irrelevant as to what a rabbit would prefer.-
> ...



1. Oh, but they make square watermelons, and that makes them geniuses?

2. I'm not an animal rights activist. I'm a 16-year-old girl expressing her opinion. Anyway, by that logic, dog fighting is acceptable because the dogs aren't "demostrably sentient" and "do not know any better" because they were bred into fighting.

3. I don't care enough to look it up.

4. It's an OPINION. Opinions are incapable of being correct or incorrect. So no, I am not "dead wrong".

5. I am also not a moral arbiter, because I never said your opinion was wrong either. I stated MY opinion, and YOU chose to tell ME I was wrong, so therefor YOU come of as the one who thinks you are the moral arbiter.


Frankly, I don't know why we're arguing this. Forum debates are never resolved.


----------



## LotsOfNothing (Nov 16, 2009)

You're just jealous you can't afford such a luxury as fur~

Just like PETA, so they take it out on the people who can~


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## Telnac (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> 1. http://www.furisdead.com/page/filthybarn.jpg I'm pretty sure the SPCA would confiscate dogs or cats kept in these conditions.
> http://www.furisdead.com/page/cannibalism.jpg There's a good chance he's not properly fed if he's feeding on his buddy, and even if he is, it's unsanitary for both humans and animals to leave rotting corpses just lying around in a cage. At least do something with it.


Uh, I believe you were asked for facts, not fiction.

www.furisdead.com is a PETA website.  It even says so on the main page!  PETA is one of the most lying, hypocritical organization that exists.  If want to give facts, try getting them from an organization that's remotely trustworthy.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> 1. Oh, but they make square watermelons, and that makes them geniuses?


Wow, when in God's name did I say "geniuses"?
Is there some part of _insane_ you didn't understand, you mindless little shrew?



> 2. I'm not an animal rights activist. I'm a 16-year-old girl expressing her opinion.


Oh, well, then you're equally stupid~
It's not your opinion, it's PETA's opinion. You're just stupid enough to believe it.



> Anyway, by that logic, dog fighting is acceptable because the dogs aren't "demostrably sentient" and "do not know any better" because they were bred into fighting.


Not all dogs involved in dogfighting were bred into it. In fact, I'm fairly certain most are instead gotten from pounds and animal shelters.
Beyond that, there is one key difference.The dogs are made to kill _each other_ in dog fights, whereas animals on fur farms are killed by people.

Of course, dogs are known to fight and severely injure or kill each other in nature anyway, just as fur-farm animals are known to be painfully killed in nature.

But, you know, we humans are a part of nature too. Why should we be less cruel to our prey than any other predator?



> 3. I don't care enough to look it up.


What a shame. Not only are you a self-important little girl who thinks being 16 means she actually knows anything, you're too apathetic to look up one of the best newspaper comics ever drawn.



> 4. It's an OPINION. Opinions are incapable of being correct or incorrect. So no, I am not "dead wrong".


Oh, so you're going to play that card?
Very well. _My_ opinion is that you're too stupid and immature to be allowed an opinion, and that, moreover, you deserve to be insulted wherever possible for espousing an opinion so utterly illogical and moronic.



> 5. I am also not a moral arbiter, because I never said your opinion was wrong either. I stated MY opinion, and YOU chose to tell ME I was wrong, so therefor YOU come of as the one who thinks you are the moral arbiter.


Incorrect. You said you'd chew people out for wearing any fur that wasn't made within your moral whitelist of conditions. In other words, you _would_, in fact, chew out anybody who wore fur. And I ask again, what would give you the right?



> Frankly, I don't know why we're arguing this. Forum debates are never resolved.


Because your opinion is stupid and you should feel bad for saying something so stupid in a public forum.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> 1. Oh, but they make square watermelons, and that makes them geniuses?



Unless you can make a square cucumber, they are better geniuses than you.



> 2. I'm not an animal rights activist. I'm a 16-year-old girl expressing her opinion. Anyway, by that logic, dog fighting is acceptable because the dogs aren't "demostrably sentient" and "do not know any better" because they were bred into fighting.



What Rigor said.



> 3. I don't care enough to look it up.



In other words "what I say is right and I don't care what anything or anyone says cause I am miss perfect and is always right" 



> 4. It's an OPINION. Opinions are incapable of being correct or incorrect. So no, I am not "dead wrong".



Actually opinions can be wrong, if I said my opinion of you is a stuck up little 16 year old who thinks she knows everything about the world, a little miss no it all, I bet you would come back and say "I am not like that!" what you really should say here is "My opinion is the only one that matetrs and everyone else is wrong"



> 5. I am also not a moral arbiter, because I never said your opinion was wrong either. I stated MY opinion, and YOU chose to tell ME I was wrong, so therefor YOU come of as the one who thinks you are the moral arbiter.



Really?

"no, I am not "dead wrong" Your own words pretty much telling Rigor she was wrong in saying you were dead wrong. Contradicting yourself much?




> Frankly, I don't know why we're arguing this. Forum debates are never resolved.



Most debates look for peoples thoughts on a subject not to "resolve" a subject.


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## otterface (Nov 17, 2009)

I have no problem with the killing of animals if it's for a good reason. I do have a problem with them being made to suffer more than is necessary to accomplish whatever purpose they are fulfilling. I have seen video of animals being skinned alive for their fur and then thrown on a pile to die in horrible agony. It was one of the most horrible things I've ever seen in my life.

If they are to die, I say do it quickly and efficiently in the most painless way possible. I know that they may be put through terrible pain and suffering out in the wild, but we are not simple animals and we have the ability to prevent their needless pain and suffering when we kill them for whatever uses we intend. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to feel some empathy for another living thing and make its death as swift and merciful as we can.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 17, 2009)

:3 my fox is looking more and more realistic.


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## Skruzz (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm both a furry and a hunter, so I guess my answer here is kinda bias.

I do not believe in the killing of animals for their fur alone. I do not own a "suit" but I do have a few sets of hunting jackets, pants, gloves, hats, underwear, socks, etc. that I've made out of the pelts of animals I've hunted. I always eat the meat, and often use even the bones as tools while I'm hunting (for instance, bone needles). The bones I do not use I give a proper burial. I never kill more than I will use, and I've never wasted a single hide or bit of meat. I do not collect "trophies" such as stuffing an animal, or skinning it for a rug, or hanging it's head above my mantlepiece, although my uncle has a stuffed husky (It was his pet and then died. He's not married and has no kids, and the husky had been with him for a long time. He couldn't bear to be separated from it.)

So, I'm not against real fur. I do not believe in farming an animal for fur alone, and I will not buy furs from any store because I do not know how the fur was acquired, how cleanly and quickly the animal was killed (I do not believe in killing an animal slowly.) and I do not know if the rest of the animal was used properly (bait for carnivorous, hungry animals is NOT proper use of meat, unless it is a wild animal that may come into someone's yard and steal a baby or small animal. Never for the purpose of getting fur.)


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## Wreth (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> But, you know, we humans are a part of nature too. Why should we be less cruel to our prey than any other predator?



Because we are mean't to be better than all the other predators, we are humans, we have great intelligence, and are able to manipulate things and have an excellent voicebox. We are also capable of empathy and sympathy, other predators are not. Are you sayinf we should behave like beings far less intelligent than us because it's natural? 

How on earth does something being natural make it right? Rape and murder is also natural.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> :3 my fox is looking more and more realistic.



Umm, isn't that a bit obvious as you are stuffing a REAL fox skin? 



Zoopedia said:


> Because we are mean't to be better than all the other predators, we are humans, we have great intelligence, and are able to manipulate things and have an excellent voicebox. We are also capable of empathy and sympathy, other predators are not. Are you sayinf we should behave like beings far less intelligent than us because it's natural?
> 
> How on earth does something being natural make it right? Rape and murder is also natural.



Who said we are "meant" to be better than all other predators? Who has actually said that? Do you know this for certain? cause it sounds like to me you are assuming this based off of our level of intelligence. 

Intelligence does not have anything to do with it, many people still have their natural instincts.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm so done with this.

My answer to every bs thing that's been said about me by people who have never met me or had a one-on-one conversation with me: fuck it. The end-all of end-alls.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> I'm so done with this.
> 
> My answer to every bs thing that's been said about me by people who have never met me or had a one-on-one conversation with me: f*** you. The end-all of end-alls.



Lol. backing out because you can't fight back? Cause you probably know we are right but wont ever admit it.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 17, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Lol. backing out because you can't fight back? Cause you probably know we are right but wont ever admit it.



Actually, backing out because it's on a freaking forum, so it has no bearing on my life, nor yours, nor Rigor's, nor PETA (which, btw, I do think is total bullshit), nor the fur farming industry, and therefore I don't see the point.

I find it funny how on forums, people are incapable of having a serious debate without insulting each other, usually on the matter of intelligence.


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 17, 2009)

Bringing up the "ITS A FURAM GUISE ITS STOOPID" excuse after you tried to argue.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> Actually, backing out because it's on a freaking forum, so it has no bearing on my life, nor yours, nor Rigor's, nor PETA (which, btw, I do think is total bullshit), nor the fur farming industry, and therefore I don't see the point.
> 
> I find it funny how on forums, people are incapable of having a serious debate without insulting each other, usually on the matter of intelligence.



What difference would it make if we all sat round a table and had the same debate? Doesn't matter if it is on a forum in in person people will STILL have their own thoughts and opinions on subjects.

Also would a debate irl have any bearing on your own life? not likely. The whole idea of a forum is TO discuss things. and un fortunately some people do resort to using the "You're stoopid" line.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 17, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:
			
		

> Also would a debate irl have any bearing on your own life? not likely. The whole idea of a forum is TO discuss things. and un fortunately some people do resort to using the "You're stoopid" line.



That's why I don't debate in real life, unless it does have a bearing. From my experience, you aren't likely to change anyone's mind by debating. Throw your opinion out there and if they want to rethink theirs, they will. Otherwise I just end up in a bad mood.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Zoopedia said:


> Because we are mean't to be better than all the other predators, we are humans, we have great intelligence, and are able to manipulate things and have an excellent voicebox. We are also capable of empathy and sympathy, other predators are not.


You know, arguing that something _should_ be done just because it _can_ be done is a fallacy...



> Are you sayinf we should behave like beings far less intelligent than us because it's natural?


Higher intelligence has nothing to do with compassion, first of all. In fact, I'd say their relationship (if existent) is more often an inverse one.

Besides that, your view still smacks of the ignorance inherent in separating man and nature.
An animal isn't less-evolved than a human, just differently evolved.
Rabbits and such evolved to be prey. Wolves evolved to be predators. Humans evolved to be planners and manipulators. But when it comes to killing things, we might as well be as indifferent as the predators. It makes things so much more efficient.



> How on earth does something being natural make it right? Rape and murder is also natural.


No shit. _Everything_ done by humans is natural. We are the products of nature, just like anything else.

I think you need to bring your morality into the modern age. Here in the 21st century, "natural" is only used to mean "moral" by the same kind of idiots who think abortion is murder and the Earth was created twelve-thousand years ago over the course of a week. In modern society, things are labeled right or wrong based secondly on whether or not they hurt other _people_, and first on whether or not the existing majority of people finds them objectionable. The majority of people clearly don't find fur sufficiently objectionable to outlaw fur-farming; therefore, fur farms are _moral._

Rape and murder, on the other hand, are by modern standards very much _im_moral. Can you guess why?

You might be a zoological encyclopedia, but you clearly don't know a thing about sociology.



			
				Novaluna said:
			
		

> Actually, backing out because it's on a freaking forum, so it has no bearing on my life, nor yours, nor Rigor's, nor PETA (which, btw, I do think is total bullshit), nor the fur farming industry, and therefore I don't see the point.


You're backing out because it hurts too much for you to admit that, even at the ripe old age of 16, you _still_ don't know everything. Please don't lie to us; I, for one, haven't lied to you.



> I find it funny how on forums, people are incapable of having a serious debate without insulting each other, usually on the matter of intelligence.


So are you admitting to doing the same thing, or are you stating that you're not a person and thus subhuman?


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## Wreth (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> An animal isn't less-evolved than a human, just differently evolved.
> Rabbits and such evolved to be prey. Wolves evolved to be predators. Humans evolved to be planners and manipulators. But when it comes to killing things, we might as well be as indifferent as the predators. It makes things so much more efficient.



I never said they were less evolved, I nearly wrote that, but realised it wasn't true and so specifically didn't. I said they are less intelligent which they are. If we can survive without causng unnessary pain to another being, in this case at least, then what justification do we have to skin an animal for it's fur.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Zoopedia said:


> I never said they were less evolved, I nearly wrote that, but realised it wasn't true and so specifically didn't. I said they are less intelligent which they are. If we can survive without causng unnessary pain to another being, in this case at least, then what justification do we have to skin an animal for it's fur.


Well, do we _need_ to survive without skinning the animals on fur-farms? Are those animals endangered? It's one thing to take the fur of endangered species, but it's quite another for common ones that are in no danger whatsoever.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Zoopedia said:


> I never said they were less evolved, I nearly wrote that, but realised it wasn't true and so specifically didn't. I said they are less intelligent which they are. If we can survive without causng unnessary pain to another being, in this case at least, then what justification do we have to skin an animal for it's fur.



Have you forgot that animals fight each other? for different reasons, could be for food, a mate or what ever, and in those fights one animal will either be hurt or killed. Which to me is no different if someone tried getting into my home, except I wont kill them for it, cause I have morals.

That is probably one of the main differences between an animal and a human, one knows/has morals, the other doesn't. Did man kind have morals when we first appeared on this shithole we call a planet? I doubt we did, and due to that, some people still have those "natural traits" our ancestors had all those thousands of years ago. 

Eek I am going off on one, I shut up now.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Well, do we _need_ to survive without skinning the animals on fur-farms? Are those animals endangered? It's one thing to take the fur of endangered species, but it's quite another for common ones that are in no danger whatsoever.



Aren't the animals bred ON furfarms? for that purpose?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Randy, quit while you're ahead. Animals mostly fight over territory, not to protect themselves. It's more like picking a fight with your neighbor in an attempt to take his house.



RandyDarkshade said:


> Aren't the animals bred ON furfarms? for that purpose?


Exactly.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Randy, quit while you're ahead. Animals mostly fight over territory, not to protect themselves. It's more like picking a fight with your neighbor in an attempt to take his house.
> 
> 
> Exactly.



That is pretty much what I was getting at. Also some species do fight over a mate, such as Stags, but I don't think Stags fight to the death. And by Stags fighting I mean the clashing of antlers. But anyway, some species do fight over a mate.

My point was though animals hurt each other, as much as humans hurt each other and animals, I see it as part of nature.


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## Wreth (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Well, do we _need_ to survive without skinning the animals on fur-farms? Are those animals endangered? It's one thing to take the fur of endangered species, but it's quite another for common ones that are in no danger whatsoever.



What about the individual animals?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Zoopedia said:


> What about the individual animals?


What about them?


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## SpartaDog (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> You're backing out because it hurts too much for you to admit that, even at the ripe old age of 16, you _still_ don't know everything. Please don't lie to us; I, for one, haven't lied to you.
> 
> So are you admitting to doing the same thing, or are you stating that you're not a person and thus subhuman?



1. Let's see. Randy and I were already through this, I never said I knew everything and can you prove that I'm lying?

2. I don't recall saying you were stupid, or insulting your intelligence in any way. If I did, please point it out and I will gladly apologize.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> 1. Let's see. Randy and I were already through this, I never said I knew everything and can you prove that I'm lying?


Whether or not your words said it is irrelevant, because the attitude you presented simply _screamed_ that.
Take it from me, kid: If you're going to act high-and-mighty in an Internet argument, you should at least have the decency to be right first.



> 2. I don't recall saying you were stupid, or insulting your intelligence in any way. If I did, please point it out and I will gladly apologize.


You said "people on forums cannot debate without calling each other stupid."
You were debating on a forum.
Therefore, if you are a person you called one of us stupid, and if you did not call one of us stupid, you are not a person. God, I love logic.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Whether or not your words said it is irrelevant, because the attitude you presented simply _screamed_ that.
> Take it from me, kid: If you're going to act high-and-mighty in an Internet argument, you should at least have the decency to be right first.
> 
> 
> ...



1. Alright. If I came off as high-and-mighty, I apologize. It wasn't my intention.

2. "People" wasn't meant to encompass everyone that was ever on a forum ever. Hell, it wasn't even meant to include you. In fact, from what I've read on other threads, I can tell you're perfectly competent. I'm just disappointed that you went and pulled that card on me.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> 1. Alright. If I came off as high-and-mighty, I apologize. It wasn't my intention.


Okay, I forgive you. Just try not to do it again, okay?



> 2. "People" wasn't meant to encompass everyone that was ever on a forum ever. Hell, it wasn't even meant to include you. In fact, from what I've read on other threads, I can tell you're perfectly competent. I'm just disappointed that you went and pulled that card on me.


What card? It's just an extra barb.


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## Ozriel (Nov 17, 2009)

It depends on how the animal was killed and if some of the parts were used.


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## SpartaDog (Nov 17, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> What card? It's just an extra barb.



The "You're stupid" card. It hardly counts as a legitimate argument.

But whatever. Now we're just being petty, and I'd like to stop.

Agree to disagree and drop it from here?


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> The "You're stupid" card. It hardly counts as a legitimate argument.



You pulled that card way before he did, spankytits.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 17, 2009)

Novaluna said:


> The "You're stupid" card. It hardly counts as a legitimate argument.
> 
> But whatever. Now we're just being petty, and I'd like to stop.
> 
> Agree to disagree and drop it from here?


I thought I already did, but yes, let's.


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## Eerie Silverfox (Nov 17, 2009)

disgusting


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## Linzys (Nov 18, 2009)

Wouldn't it eventually start to smell?


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## Kiszka (Nov 18, 2009)

None of the choices quite match up, but I chose that it didn't bother me anyways.

I myself own a real "something" tail. I didn't know it at the time, otherwise I probably would have never bought it. I am 100% against farm furs, and not too fond of wild furs either. I feel that unless it is inherited, bought from someone who bought it from a taxidermist/furrier whom was going to scrap it anyways, or you live in, like, Siberia, you have no business killing animals for their fur.

Maybe the answer I chose wasn't the best one.. =/


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Rabbits and such evolved to be prey. Wolves evolved to be predators.



I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think anything evolved to be prey, at least not without some human guidance. There is no advantage to the animal in being highly edible.

On topic though, I'm against fur. I don't see why it would be needed. The argument about real fur being warmer than fake fur might be true, but fur is not the only warm material we have. I have some very warm clothes that are made out of a mix of cotton and synthetic fibres. There are many easier to clean and less costly (assuming you're buying the finished product, not hunting) alternatives out there.

For the most part I don't buy the animal control angle either, because the majority of people that hunt are not ecological experts. They are as likely to be throwing the balance off as they are helping it.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

Eerie Silverfox said:


> disgusting



I love how people give one word answers but don't give a full explanation.

Why is it disgusting?


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I love how people give one word answers but don't give a full explanation.
> 
> Why is it disgusting?



Somebody replied with "No." earlier to a thread around here. It might have even been this one. I don't even know who they were replying to.


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## Duality Jack (Nov 18, 2009)

I like leather and fur :V so shoot me  But I wear fur from animals which have been eaten (I have one hat with deer fur on it) and leather from animals that where rasied for beef.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

The Drunken Ace said:


> I like leather and fur :V so shoot me  But I wear fur from animals which have been eaten (I have one hat with deer fur on it) and leather from animals that where rasied for beef.



I prefer leather to fur, I think it is mainly cause fur doesn't interest me. I used to hate the fur trade when I was younger, but I seem to have changed my views on it as I have gotten older and wiser.

I like leather as it is a pretty tough material. I have had my wallet for almost three years, and the only thing to break on it was the plastic window thing in the pocket for your credit cards, bank cards etc, and that plastic window split across the bottom and the smaller bottom section fell out, but the leather itself is still in good condition. 

Plus leather gear for motorcyclists s a life saver sometimes.

Now, I am off to go do some other things that does not involve sitting here at the comp (which I said in another thread I was gonna go do like 10 minutes ago XD) Stop distracting me!


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

^ Leather is better. It's so much more versatile than fur, and less itchy. 





wendyw said:


> I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think anything evolved to be prey, at least not without some human guidance. There is no advantage to the animal in being highly edible.


Whether or not you agree with the facts is irrelevant. Prey species are almost always herbivorous, and they breed faster than stupidity on the Internet. Therefore, there _is_ an advantage in being highly edible--namely, that they can be consumed by predators to keep the population in check.



> On topic though, I'm against fur. I don't see why it would be needed. The argument about real fur being warmer than fake fur might be true, but fur is not the only warm material we have. I have some very warm clothes that are made out of a mix of cotton and synthetic fibres. There are many easier to clean and less costly (assuming you're buying the finished product, not hunting) alternatives out there.


There are a lot of things in human society that aren't _needed._ Are you going to say television is immoral next? Cellular telephones? The Internet?



> For the most part I don't buy the animal control angle either, because the majority of people that hunt are not ecological experts. They are as likely to be throwing the balance off as they are helping it.


Did you know you need a license to hunt in most states? And that the EPA only gives out a certain number of tags for males and females, at least in the case of deer?
Of course you didn't. You're a simpleton who can't stand the thought of people harming cute, fuzzy animals.

Go away, little girl.


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Whether or not you agree with the facts is irrelevant. Prey species are almost always herbivorous, and they breed faster than stupidity on the Internet. Therefore, there _is_ an advantage in being highly edible--namely, that they can be consumed by predators to keep the population in check.



High breeding numbers are a result of their high mortality rate not the other way round.



> There are a lot of things in human society that aren't _needed._ Are you going to say television is immoral next? Cellular telephones? The Internet?



It's my opinion that I don't agree with it. Did I ever say I wanted to ban it though?



> Did you know you need a license to hunt in most states? And that the EPA only gives out a certain number of tags for males and females, at least in the case of deer?
> Of course you didn't. You're a simpleton who can't stand the thought of people harming cute, fuzzy animals.



The US is not the only country in the world, nor is it my primary concern, and deer are not the only animals hunted.



> Go away, little girl.



These are my opinions. I am entitled to give them. In fact that's why this thread was started. Somebody who does use fur wanted to know other people's opinions. 

I gave mine in a polite manner, without insulting or name calling, which is more than you seem to be able to do.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

wendyw said:


> High breeding numbers are a result of their high mortality rate not the other way round.


Would the mortality rate be so high if there weren't enough of them to feed so many predators? No, because the number of predators would decrease.

I can't speak for the hunters in whatever country you're talking about, but you 



> It's my opinion that I don't agree with it. Did I ever say I wanted to ban it though?


Why have such a strongly-worded opinion if you don't have any use for it?



> The US is not the only country in the world, nor is it my primary concern, and deer are not the only animals hunted.


Boo hoo. I'm going to crosspost something Azure said in another thread now.



AzurePhoenix said:


> It's just a fucking dog. It's not a human life. Quit kicking up such a damn fuss over something that is fuzzy and cute. If I kill a slug, you feel nothing, but if I kill a dog, ZOMG MURDERER LIFE IN PRISON YOUR FACE MUST DIE. They're both animals. Stop being selective, either you care about all of them, or you care about none.


Now replace "dog" with "deer", "rabbit", or any other animal that is ever hunted, and you have pretty much the same thing.

Is it me or is "animal-killer" well on its way to becoming the new babyfur/pedofur/dogfucker?



> These are my opinions. I am entitled to give them. In fact that's why this thread was started.


Oh, you wanna play that card? Well, _I'm_ entitled to _my_ opinion, and my opinion is that your opinion, like yourself, is illogical, weak, and uninformed.



> Somebody who does use fur wanted to know other people's opinions.
> 
> I gave mine in a polite manner, without insulting or name calling, which is more than you seem to be able to do.


That line might actually work if I cared whether or not people liked me. Sadly, I don't.


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Why have such a strongly-worded opinion if you don't have any use for it?



I don't think my opinion was strongly worded. It was just to the point.



> Now replace "dog" with "deer", "rabbit", or any other animal that is ever hunted, and you have pretty much the same thing.
> 
> Is it me or is "animal-killer" well on its way to becoming the new babyfur/pedofur/dogfucker?



You're reacting to things I have never said. Just because I do not agree with something does not mean that I think all people who do are evil people. I just have a differing opinion to them.

I have friends who have no problem with having animal skins on their wall or wearing fur, but it has no effect on my opinion of them in general. I still think they're good people.



> Oh, you wanna play that card? Well, _I'm_ entitled to _my_ opinion, and my opinion is that your opinion, like yourself, is illogical, weak, and uninformed.



I never said you didn't. I was just telling you why I wasn't going to go away.



> That line might actually work if I cared whether or not people liked me. Sadly, I don't.



I noticed.


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 18, 2009)

The Drunken Ace said:


> I like leather and fur :V so shoot me  But I wear fur from animals which have been eaten (I have one hat with deer fur on it) and leather from animals that where rasied for beef.



I have some rabbit pelts from pet rabbits.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 18, 2009)

wendyw said:


> I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think anything evolved to be prey, at least not without some human guidance. There is no advantage to the animal in being highly edible.
> 
> On topic though, I'm against fur. I don't see why it would be needed. The argument about real fur being warmer than fake fur might be true, but fur is not the only warm material we have. I have some very warm clothes that are made out of a mix of cotton and synthetic fibres. There are many easier to clean and less costly (assuming you're buying the finished product, not hunting) alternatives out there.
> 
> For the most part I don't buy the animal control angle either, because the majority of people that hunt are not ecological experts. They are as likely to be throwing the balance off as they are helping it.




you are an idiot.

it's the fish and game service that regulates what hunters can and cannot shoot. it's not like "lol I have a hunter license lemme shoot whatev." you have to put your name in for a specific animal, and if you're drawn, you get to shoot it. and only certain ones too. not too old or not too young and the right gender.

people wear furs because they are dead animals. period. that's the only reason why now.

rabbits evolved to reproduce quickly. if they didnt evolve to be prey items they would overrun the world today. like humans. only, we didnt evolve into prey items. 

you are an idiot.
I'll bet you've never been close to a wild animal.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> you are an idiot.
> 
> it's the fish and game service that regulates what hunters can and cannot shoot. it's not like "lol I have a hunter license lemme shoot whatev." you have to put your name in for a specific animal, and if you're drawn, you get to shoot it. and only certain ones too. not too old or not too young and the right gender.
> 
> ...


This. Thanks, Z


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> This. Thanks, Z



X3 no prob.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

If you lived near me Zrcalo, I could easily obtain rabbits for you to skin/stuff. Mom is a housekeeper on a farm, and one of the guys there has shot 500 rabbits since the beginning of summer. That is on and directly around the farm itself, not counting all the fields and stuff. Problem is alot of them are carrying that mixy, mitsy, micksy whatever it is disease, I know how the word sounds but no idea how to spell it.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> If you lived near me Zrcalo, I could easily obtain rabbits for you to skin/stuff. Mom is a housekeeper on a farm, and one of the guys there has shot 500 rabbits since the beginning of summer. That is on and directly around the farm itself, not counting all the fields and stuff. Problem is alot of them are carrying that mixy, mitsy, micksy whatever it is disease, I know how the word sounds but no idea how to spell it.



@_@ evidently you live in england, and I live in arizona. 
I'd still love to have the rabbits though, but I'd have no idea how they'd pass customs. 
not sure what that disease is either. mites? mange?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> @_@ evidently you live in england, and I live in arizona.
> I'd still love to have the rabbits though, but I'd have no idea how they'd pass customs.
> not sure what that disease is either. mites? mange?



Good old wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixamatosis

It is a nasty disease to a rabbit. I think that is why I found one that had dropped dead by my shed outside in the space of 10 minutes of me leaving the shed and returning.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Good old wiki.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixamatosis
> 
> It is a nasty disease to a rabbit. I think that is why I found one that had dropped dead by my shed outside in the space of 10 minutes of me leaving the shed and returning.



yeaaah. we dont have the disease here... and I'd probably be sent to prison for having infected rabbit carcasses.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myxomatosis
> 
> It is a nasty disease to a rabbit.


It's also a really cool song


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## Ratte (Nov 18, 2009)

I could have bought a fox pelt coat.

I should have, even.

HAHA FURRIES.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Ratte said:


> I could have bought a fox pelt coat.
> 
> I should have, even.


Do you even have that kind of money? :V

Semi-related: My sister used to have a winter coat with fox fur on the hood when we were kids. It was bought for me, but the thing was too small, so I gave it to her. Really nice coat, though.


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> you are an idiot.
> 
> it's the fish and game service that regulates what hunters can and cannot shoot. it's not like "lol I have a hunter license lemme shoot whatev." you have to put your name in for a specific animal, and if you're drawn, you get to shoot it. and only certain ones too. not too old or not too young and the right gender.



As I said before. Not everybody here is in the US. Different laws apply in different countries or did you not catch my point on that?



> you are an idiot.
> I'll bet you've never been close to a wild animal.



You bet wrong.
I used to live in a house directly next to a large are of woodland so I've had badgers, deer and foxes roaming directly by my house and I used to be part of a group that looked after a local nature reserve.

On the rabbit issue. Yes rabbits evolved to reproduce in large numbers. I never said anything differently. However my argument is that they did not evolve to be prey. They are prey to many species.

Species that reproduce in high numbers tend to have mortality rates, but this is as a response to being preyed upon, as only the members of the species that do reproduce in large numbers pass on their DNA to following generations. In area with few or no predators this would be much less likely to happen.

This doesn't mean that they "evolved to be prey". They evolved to survive as a species in ways that were dictated by the fact they were prey.

The only goal of evolution is survival.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

wendyw said:


> As I said before. Not everybody here is in the US. Different laws apply in different countries or did you not catch my point on that?


First-world countries regulate hunting and fishing. Third-world countries have bigger problems to worry about. You lose.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> First-world countries regulate hunting and fishing. Third-world countries have bigger problems to worry about. You lose.



Aye, I doubt laws on hunting would vary that much in first world countries, apart from to cater for the native species to each country. I am not familiar with hunting over here, I have never been hunting.


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> First-world countries regulate hunting and fishing. Third-world countries have bigger problems to worry about. You lose.



The UK has some lax laws regulating hunting that do not limit the numbers that can be hunted on many species. There are laws that regulate times of the year and some species are protected however.

I don't know the laws on hunting in every western country, but I seriously doubt you do either.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

wendyw said:


> The UK has some lax laws regulating hunting that do not limit the numbers that can be hunted on many species.


The UK is run by incompetent and probably inbred morons who think cartoon children are real, so that doesn't really surprise me.



> I don't know the laws on hunting in every western country, but I seriously doubt you do either.


You don't seem to know the laws on hunting in any country but the UK, so I'd say I still know more about the subject than you do.


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## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> The UK is run by incompetent and probably inbred morons who think cartoon children are real, so that doesn't really surprise me.



Whatever the hell you think about our government that doesn't take away from the fact that the regulations you assumed existed here don't. So, if you're wrong about the UK how many other countries might you be wrong about?

Also, this whole thing is fucking rediculous. I disagreed with you on your take on evolutionary cause and effect and you threw a hissy fit at me. Seriously, grow up. If you can get through a single post to me without being an insulting prick I will continue. In fact, anybody that isn't being an insulting prick can ask me any question on the subject and I will answer it to the best of my abilities, but what you want is a slagging match and you're not going to get one from me, because I don't care about this conversation as much as you seem to do.

Find one of the PETA fans on here to go flame.
I'll stick to talking to people who can discuss this civilly and try using logic instead of insults.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

wendyw said:


> Whatever the hell you think about our government that doesn't take away from the fact that the regulations you assumed existed here don't. So, if you're wrong about the UK how many other countries might you be wrong about?


Not that many. Your country is pretty obviously fifty years behind the rest of Western civilization when it comes to political maturity; you didn't give up imperialism until around 1950, you're still on your "OMG EVERYTHING IS DANEJROUS PR0NZ!!!11!1" phase, and the citizens, by and large, simply don't give a fuck about anything.

Besides that, well...there are many more countries than just the UK, you know.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> The UK is run by incompetent and probably inbred morons who think cartoon children are real, so that doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> 
> You don't seem to know the laws on hunting in any country but the UK, so I'd say I still know more about the subject than you do.



Why would anyone want to know the laws of hunting in a country they don't live in?

And the only thing I can think of that is limited is fishing, or to be more precise, fishing for cod.

She is right about there being basically no limit on the number of kills during a hunt here. Rabbits are considered a pest here, especially to farmers, hence why farmers are very often out shooting them, that and there is so many fucking rabbits round here you wouldn't believe it. 

The only limit really is on what species you are permitted to hunt, and when you can hunt them. And no, the government is not dumb when it comes to hunting here, they just do not need to limit the number of kills, the numbers of hunted species in the wild are fine, and hunting is not that popular over here anyway.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Why would anyone want to know the laws of hunting in a country they don't live in?


Well, to make herself look like less of a dumbass, of course. If you're going to argue about laws in only your country of residence, don't you think it's wiser to only specify that country as the scope of your argument's basis?

Likewise, if you're going to argue about the laws in most countries or an unspecified one, wouldn't it be wise to do the research first?



> She is right about there being basically no limit on the number of kills during a hunt here. Rabbits are considered a pest here, especially to farmers, hence why farmers are very often out shooting them, that and there is so many fucking rabbits round here you wouldn't believe it.


Rabbits are _rightly_ considered a pest species, so I really don't know _what_ that bitch is complaining about :V



> The only limit really is on what species you are permitted to hunt, and when you can hunt them. And no, the government is not dumb when it comes to hunting here, they just do not need to limit the number of kills, the numbers of hunted species in the wild are fine, and hunting is not that popular over here anyway.


In that case, I retract that part of my condemnation of them. The rest still applies, of course :V


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## BulletGutz (Nov 18, 2009)

Aslong as an animal dies naturally, I don't personally see the problem. Or if the animal has been bred for meat and its fur/hide is another part of the animal which can be put to use.


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## Ratte (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Do you even have that kind of money? :V
> 
> Semi-related: My sister used to have a winter coat with fox fur on the hood when we were kids. It was bought for me, but the thing was too small, so I gave it to her. Really nice coat, though.



No, I don't.

Fffff

Well

I can't remember the price, but yeah.

Also, yeah, that's gotta be nice.  A lot of cheap synthetic fur melts and turns to shit when washed and dried.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Ratte said:


> Also, yeah, that's gotta be nice.  A lot of cheap synthetic fur melts and turns to shit when washed and dried.


Yeah. Though she had to have it dry-cleaned, I think.

Real fur doesn't melt until you take a soldering iron to it, I imagine--just like hair.


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## RageDragon (Nov 18, 2009)

If you eat meat in any shape form or way you can't bitch about farm raised fur skinning.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

RageDragon said:


> If you eat meat in any shape form or way you can't bitch about farm raised fur skinning.


I believe this was said already, but it's still pretty much true.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Well, to make herself look like less of a dumbass, of course. If you're going to argue about laws in only your country of residence, don't you think it's wiser to only specify that country as the scope of your argument's basis?
> 
> Likewise, if you're going to argue about the laws in most countries or an unspecified one, wouldn't it be wise to do the research first?
> 
> ...



Indeed, it is sensible to have a knowledge of what ever it is you are arguing/debating about. 

As for our government, you are partially correct, they are useless twats. All they do is sit in the house of commons debating and arguing about things and never get anywhere with those arguments......much like how this discussions on teh forums don't go anywhere. However because of the EU (European Union) there are many laws and things standard across Europe, thanks to Brussels.


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## kittyjess (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> The UK is run by incompetent and probably inbred morons who think cartoon children are real, so that doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> 
> You don't seem to know the laws on hunting in any country but the UK, so I'd say I still know more about the subject than you do.



Awww cute! 
We have an uneducated American troll, No matter what you think of our current administration, you can hardly claim that yours has been any better, indeed, one could argue that you have had some of the worst leaders ever, but I will let you off for being simple.

For the record I hardly support our government (or indeed yours) on the vast marjory of issues. I also may add the I won't pass judgement upon laws that I don't know, unlike yourself and I must ask wtf was with the cartoon children remark, that was most odd.

Next topic, lets get this out the way, I feel that you are most uncouth and exhibit aspects of your people, may I recommend that you refrain from this, stereotypical troll behavior.

Can I also stare to the board that my views are not what I would call too common with in this green and pleasant land (that is forever teaming with wildlife, unsurprisingly) and that I have been a most fierce about my support for animal rights, often, sadly having to resort to violence, to stop what I consider wrong (the point that comes to mind is the shootings at more than one fox hunt, I was amazingly sent along to).

What I have done in the past might be considered as wrong, but at the time I considered it required, so I did my duty.

I also might note for the record that I consider humans a mistake and feel that (given evolutionary mistakes) that humans are one the weakest species around, yes, you may have the intellectual advantage but, I feel that human physical attributes are most weak are there for are lesser.

I feel that humans are most wasteful, I am not against hunting, if that is needed for survival, but I find for any other reason it is just pointless.

Humans are more like a bacteria than a real animal, as they hardly find a equilibrium with its own environment and thus I would like to see the human population to fall quickly but I don't argue that human intervention is required to "control" something that nature is quite able to regulate it's self.

On the topic of fur, I find it most sick and wasteful, pointless and cruel.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> Awww cute!
> We have an uneducated American troll, No matter what you think of our current administration, you can hardly claim that yours has been any better, indeed, one could argue that you have had some of the worst leaders ever, but I will let you off for being simple.



>.> From what I read below Rigor is much smarter than you.



> For the record I hardly support our government (or indeed yours) on the vast marjory of issues. I also may add the I won't pass judgement upon laws that I don't know, unlike yourself and I must ask wtf was with the cartoon children remark, that was most odd.



Even I got the cartoon remark.



> Next topic, lets get this out the way, I feel that you are most uncouth and exhibit aspects of your people, may I recommend that you refrain from this, stereotypical troll behavior.



Rigor is Rigor, nothing will change that.



> Can I also stare to the board that my views are not what I would call too common with in this green and pleasant land (that is forever teaming with wildlife, unsurprisingly) and that I have been a most fierce about my support for animal rights, often, sadly having to resort to violence, to stop what I consider wrong (the point that comes to mind is the shootings at more than one fox hunt, I was amazingly sent along to).



God an animal rights activists. You wont ever put a stop to fox hunting, so why bother wasting your time? Or do you like spoiling what other people actually like to do? just because YOU have a problem with it YOU want to spoil it for others, I fucking hate people like you. How would you like it if I started protesting against something you liked doing cause I felt it was wrong?



> What I have done in the past might be considered as wrong, but at the time I considered it required, so I did my duty.



Your duty? What are you? gods fucking gift to the planet?



> I also might note for the record that I consider humans a mistake and feel that (given evolutionary mistakes) that humans are one the weakest species around, yes, you may have the intellectual advantage but, I feel that human physical attributes are most weak are there for are lesser.



In which case you are a mistake aswell, you are no better than any other human.



> I feel that humans are most wasteful, I am not against hunting, if that is needed for survival, but I find for any other reason it is just pointless.



Hypocrite.



> Humans are more like a bacteria than a real animal, as they hardly find a equilibrium with its own environment and thus I would like to see the human population to fall quickly but I don't argue that human intervention is required to "control" something that nature is quite able to regulate it's self.



You seriously need some psychiatric help.



> On the topic of fur, I find it most sick and wasteful, pointless and cruel.



Hypocrite again.


----------



## RageDragon (Nov 18, 2009)

Humans are most wasteful? Do you know what the major cause of green house gases in the world is? Cows. Pigs. Farting. Shitting. 

However, let's say this: How can you be so high and mighty on the subject when you are sitting behind the screen of a monitor that will take thousands of years to biodegrade.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

RageDragon said:


> Humans are most wasteful? Do you know what the major cause of green house gases in the world is? Cows. Pigs. Farting. Shitting.
> 
> However, let's say this: How can you be so high and mighty on the subject when you are sitting behind the screen of a monitor that will take thousands of years to biodegrade.



IMO we are resourceful aswell, how many different chemicals and metals have we made use of it? we humans have practically made use of everything the planet has had to offer us.


----------



## Skidd (Nov 18, 2009)

wendyw said:


> High breeding numbers are a result of their high mortality rate not the other way round.



Wrong. Dogs have a much higher potential reproductive rate than do deer or really any ungulate at all (save possibly swine). All animals produce as much as they can. "High Breeding Numbers" are a result of lack of pressure on a population, as well as several breeding strategies (R/K selection theory) that emphasize quantity over quality. 

Pressure on a species CAN cause it to produce more offspring, but your logic seems really backwards and twisted from my knowledge of ecology.




			
				Rigor Sardonicus said:
			
		

> Rabbits are _rightly_ considered a pest species, so I really don't know _what_ that bitch is complaining about :V


If people were really about protecting the environment, they'd ship themselves down to Australia and try to take out some rabbits.




			
				Kittyjess said:
			
		

> I also might note for the record that I consider humans a mistake and feel that (given evolutionary mistakes) that humans are one the weakest species around, yes, you may have the intellectual advantage but, I feel that human physical attributes are most weak are there for are lesser.


If that were true, then we wouldn't be around to talk about it. There's no such thing as an evolutionary "mistake". There is no "right" or "wrong" evolution. Weakest species around? Don't make me laugh! If we're talking physicality, yes, but we would be long dead if we were infact that weak. Tigers and Wolves do not rule the world. It's species like raccoons and rats and humans that can adapt that own the planet. "Weak" my foot. 

I also want to point out that in terms of physical attributes, humans, along with canines like african wild dogs and wolves, are number one when it comes to endurance. Bushmen may never be able to outpace a gazelle, but they sure as hell can run for a lot longer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo <- Watch, and tell me that humans are weak and a "mistake". Humans, like all products are evolution, are tailor-made for a specific niche and they are built for SUCCESS. And if humans are not the most successful (vertebrate) species on the planet, I will eat my underwear.



> Humans are more like a bacteria than a real animal, as they hardly find a equilibrium with its own environment and thus I would like to see the human population to fall quickly but I don't argue that human intervention is required to "control" something that nature is quite able to regulate it's self.


A population can't regulate itself if all the predators have been displaced by humans. In my area, if the deer population is not kept in check by human hunting, then many more animals will die of starvation than the number of animals killed by comparatively painless bullets.

By your standards, raccoons, rats, and feral cats etc. are all "more like bacteria than a real animal" because they're adaptive and have relatively unchecked populations. Humans are just the best because not only are they extremely adaptive, they bend their environment to their needs. 

You can debate this in regards to cruelty and whatnot all you like, but inferring that humans are a biological mistake is not only wrong, it's a wonderfully ignorant statement. :3 

Nothing rubs me wrong more than people who refuse the fact they're human and see them as a dirty plague.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> Awww cute!
> We have an uneducated American troll, No matter what you think of our current administration, you can hardly claim that yours has been any better, indeed, one could argue that you have had some of the worst leaders ever, but I will let you off for being simple.
> 
> For the record I hardly support our government (or indeed yours) on the vast marjory of issues. I also may add the I won't pass judgement upon laws that I don't know, unlike yourself and I must ask wtf was with the cartoon children remark, that was most odd.
> ...



We are getting a lot of Pseudo-Intellectuals here today. o.o

Also: Calling someone a troll, when they disagree with your opinions is a bad debate tactic. -sips coffee-


Other than that, your misanthropy is laughable.


Like someone else stated, evolution is *never* a mistake, and nature in itself is *never* perfect.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

I am so glad I am not the only one who disagreed with what kittyjess said, but I will bet my last cent she won't come back to this thread/forum.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I am so glad I am not the only one who disagreed with what kittyjess said, but I will bet my last cent she won't come back to this thread/forum.



She's a fucking misanthropic retard. 
I hope she does. I have been bored and anxious all day.


----------



## wendyw (Nov 18, 2009)

Skidd said:


> Wrong. Dogs have a much higher potential reproductive rate than do deer or really any ungulate at all (save possibly swine). All animals produce as much as they can. "High Breeding Numbers" are a result of lack of pressure on a population, as well as several breeding strategies (R/K selection theory) that emphasize quantity over quality.
> 
> Pressure on a species CAN cause it to produce more offspring, but your logic seems really backwards and twisted from my knowledge of ecology.



Surely a low survival rate would have a drastic effect on breeding numbers? Generally the ability to pass on DNA to future generations relies on the ability to survive, but surely when there isn't sufficient differences in survival ability the defining feature becomes the size of litters. Species with low predator threat run a larger risk of overpopulation, so in the case where a branch of a species does reproduce in significantly large numbers it is less likely to be successful in the long term. 

I must admit it's been a long time since I've studied the subject, so it's possible my memory's playing tricks on me. I got in the habit of reading up on animal biology and behaviour a lot during senior school, as well as watching any documentaries I could, but fell out of the habit later on, so my memory could be faulty or based on theories that are horribly outdated.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 18, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> She's a fucking misanthropic retard.
> I hope she does. I have been bored and anxious all day.



She needs to take a leaf out of her own book and not be the stereotypical, pompus, I am better than you, ignorant Brit.

Judging by they way she spoke in her post I would bet she is from an "upper class" family, and the "upper class" here tend to be the most ignorant of Brits. What I diss like about the "upper class" the types that drive BMW's and other expensive cars, is the fact that many of them (not all) tend to look down on those worse off than they are, they look down on the poor and consider them "trash" which comes from the way victorians were.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> Awww cute!
> We have an uneducated American troll, No matter what you think of our current administration, you can hardly claim that yours has been any better, indeed, one could argue that you have had some of the worst leaders ever, but I will let you off for being simple.


And there it is again. "Why can't the English teach the English how to speak?" Surely it hasn't been _lost_ on you that my grammar is far superior to yours.

For the record I hardly support our government (or indeed yours) on the vast marjory of issues. I also may add the I won't pass judgement upon laws that I don't know, unlike yourself and I must ask wtf was with the cartoon children remark, that was most odd.[/quote]
Hahahahaha. You live in the UK and don't even know about that?

They passed a law equating lolicon hentai and other such illustrations with _actual_ child pornography involving _actual_ children.

And you called me ignorant? Child, you're just proving my point.



> Next topic, lets get this out the way, I feel that you are most uncouth and exhibit aspects of your people, may I recommend that you refrain from this, stereotypical troll behavior.


Of course you may. May _I_ recommend that you take some English lessons and learn how to use commas correctly? 



> Can I also stare to the board that my views are not what I would call too common with in this green and pleasant land (that is forever teaming with wildlife, unsurprisingly) and that I have been a most fierce about my support for animal rights, often, sadly having to resort to violence, to stop what I consider wrong (the point that comes to mind is the shootings at more than one fox hunt, I was amazingly sent along to).


Oh, so you just admitted you're an eco-terrorist?
Um, sweetie, that fork in your arse means you're done.



> What I have done in the past might be considered as wrong, but at the time I considered it required, so I did my duty.


So using violence to stop people from killing a fox is your duty? What if they say it's their duty to kill foxes? What makes them wrong and you right?



> I also might note for the record that I consider humans a mistake


You're species-dysphoric? Somehow I'm not surprised. The obvious solution there is to kill yourself.



> and feel that (given evolutionary mistakes) that humans are one the weakest species around, yes, you may have the intellectual advantage but, I feel that human physical attributes are most weak are there for are lesser.


Hahaha. Speak for yourself, child. I could kick your ass to Wellington without breaking a sweat--backwards _and_ in heels.



> I feel that humans are most wasteful, I am not against hunting, if that is needed for survival, but I find for any other reason it is just pointless.





> Humans are more like a bacteria than a real animal, as they hardly find a equilibrium with its own environment and thus I would like to see the human population to fall quickly but I don't argue that human intervention is required to "control" something that nature is quite able to regulate it's self.


First of all, you are thinking of viruses and not bacteria. Secondly, little girl, you are not Agent Smith, and therefore cannot get away with saying such things. I don't know when the last time you looked in the mirror was, but you are irrevocably and incontrovertibly _human_, at least as far as physiological characteristics go. Your intellect is very clearly subhuman, of course, but that's not what separates the species.



> On the topic of fur, I find it most sick and wasteful, pointless and cruel.


Funny, I feel that way about not keeping people like yourself in labor camps.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> She needs to take a leaf out of her own book and not be the stereotypical, pompus, I am better than you, ignorant Brit.
> 
> Judging by they way she spoke in her post I would bet she is from an "upper class" family, and the "upper class" here tend to be the most ignorant of Brits. What I diss like about the "upper class" the types that drive BMW's and other expensive cars, is the fact that many of them (not all) tend to look down on those worse off than they are, they look down on the poor and consider them "trash" which comes from the way victorians were.



I could tell. 
Retarded piggarts. >.>


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> -awesome text-




Shall I break out the celebratory tea?

EDIT: Speak of the white devil, she's back.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Shall I break out the celebratory tea?
> 
> EDIT: Speak of the white devil, she's back.


_IIIIIIIIIIIIIt's *showtime!!*_ :twisted:


----------



## Slade (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't care if someone buys real fur. I never would because it's damn overpriced, but I have no objections.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> _IIIIIIIIIIIIIt's *showtime!!*_ :twisted:



We's gonna have us a good ol' PETAfag-drag!!

YEEHAW!!


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> We's gonna have us a good ol' PETAfag-drag!!
> 
> YEEHAW!!


...so I'm Beetlejuice and you're the Monster Across the Street?

Who's Lydia, then?


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> ...so I'm Beetlejuice and you're the Monster Across the Street?
> 
> Who's Lydia, then?



I dunno.

First person who posts gets the part.

EDIT: She be replying. Oh noes!
I'll check up on this turd stand in a few once I finish running the Daily heroic. -thumbs-


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

How about it's the first person I actually _like_ who posts? D:


----------



## Trpdwarf (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> How about it's the first person I actually _like_ who posts? D:



OH ME ME!

Lol...this thread has been a trip. Also am I the only one that looks at the user name in question and thinks of jesskitt?


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 18, 2009)

Trpdwarf said:


> OH ME ME!
> 
> Lol...this thread has been a trip. Also am I the only one that looks at the user name in question and thinks of jesskitt?



You aren't the only one. :V


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Trpdwarf said:


> OH ME ME!


'
...well, I don't _dis_like you, so okay--if you call me Beej, I'll call you Lyds 



> Lol...this thread has been a trip. Also am I the only one that looks at the user name in question and thinks of jesskitt?


It very well might be her.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Nov 18, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> You aren't the only one. :V



Coolies.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> '
> ...well, I don't _dis_like you, so okay--if you call me Beej, I'll call you Lyds
> 
> It very well might be her.



Haha...alright Beej. Yeah it might be....the writing style is rather similar?


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Trpdwarf said:


> Haha...alright Beej.


'90s cartoon references--you know I love 'em.



> Yeah it might be....the writing style is rather similar?


Lyds, the names are only a letter apart. Seriously, babe, it can't be a coincidence.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> '90s cartoon references--you know I love 'em.
> 
> 
> Lyds, the names are only a letter apart. Seriously, babe, it can't be a coincidence.



The golden age of cartoons...;le sigh;

Well, I know that...it's the same name with the two parts switched around. I'm just saying Beej, the writing style of person in question does appear to be rather similar to the other person in question, further making it appear that for some obscure reason that horror of a costume maker is back on FA again...or at least FAF.

EDIT: Hey, where did she go?


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Trpdwarf said:


> Well, I know that...it's the same name with the two parts switched around. I'm just saying Beej, the writing style of person in question does appear to be rather similar to the other person in question, further making it appear that for some obscure reason that horror of a costume maker is back on FA again...or at least FAF.


Yeah, I'm agreeing with you on that too.



> EDIT: Hey, where did she go?


She probably saw us talking about her and was like "oh shit, busted! D:"


----------



## Panda (Nov 18, 2009)

I wont do fur farms, I just cant.
  Hunting is ok,but there are a few animals whose fur I just couldn't take. Mainly wolves annd such...


----------



## kittyjess (Nov 19, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> >.> From what I read below Rigor is much smarter than you.



Perhaps, well in some areas, I am hardly the jack of all trades and I assure you I wish not to be, for a jack of all trades is a master of none.

I am, however rather well read up on a multitude of subjects, most of I am sure you would not be interested in. Indeed, I may add that I have qualifications in most of that I have an interest in.



RandyDarkshade said:


> Even I got the cartoon remark.



It was not that I did not get said comment, just I had to question on the reason it was mentioned, as it was (in my view) totally irrelevant to the topic. 




RandyDarkshade said:


> Rigor is Rigor, nothing will change that.



Perhaps, however I did feel that it was most uncouth, but I suppose its down to a difference of culture.  




RandyDarkshade said:


> God an animal rights activists. You wont ever put a stop to fox hunting, so why bother wasting your time? Or do you like spoiling what other people actually like to do? just because YOU have a problem with it YOU want to spoil it for others, I fucking hate people like you. How would you like it if I started protesting against something you liked doing cause I felt it was wrong?



Why is this, is it cos toffs (that I presume you are, since no one else would be supporting this) would over turn it by throwing cash at the people responsible? 

As for spoiling peoples fun, I consider it an archaic and inhumane  flux sport, supported only by inbred rich humans.

Next point, if you had a problem with what I enjoyed doing, I would welcome you views and try to see you point of view, perhaps if you present you argument well and that I was swayed by it, I would, most likely side with yourself.

Amazingly I am most amicable in real life and unlike most, I am of most open mind and more than willing to see rational points of view other than my own.     



RandyDarkshade said:


> Your duty? What are you? gods fucking gift to the planet?



I feel that it the duty of most to campaign to end cruelty and in that case I did so think my actions were justified.

These days, I often find political manipulation (via organised campaigning and other means) to be far more affective, but I will claim not that I wouldn't do it again if situation called for it.

As I said, I claim not to be the tool or gift of any god or goddess nor do I act like it.

One may also had that I also know that I am animal unlike most humans and I also know that humans are hardly the gods that they do think of themselves as.    




RandyDarkshade said:


> In which case you are a mistake aswell, you are no better than any other human.



Did I claim otherwise?




RandyDarkshade said:


> Hypocrite.



One must ask, why do you think this?

I stated my views, as I said, if one needs to hunt to survive, I see little wrong with that.  




RandyDarkshade said:


> You seriously need some psychiatric help.



On what grounds, may I ask?



RandyDarkshade said:


> Hypocrite again.



Again I do not see how everything that I had said on this subject is, in any part, hypocritical.

I do, however, feel that you do not know of what the term means so please let me provide you with the definition of hypocrisy.

"the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense." 



RageDragon said:


> Humans are most wasteful? Do you know what the major cause of green house gases in the world is? Cows. Pigs. Farting. Shitting.
> 
> However, let's say this: How can you be so high and mighty on the subject when you are sitting behind the screen of a monitor that will take thousands of years to biodegrade.



Of the above, one does know, however I wish to ask, who's fault is it that we have so many cows and pigs in the world, would that be humans?

I rest my case on that point, as for the second, sadly due to the society that I was born in to, I have to work, I do this freelance so I do so often as possible recycle, this means that the vast majority of my equipment is mostly recycled, often 3rd hand.

I agree that we need to do more in that area and I did for one of my jobs before going freelance, worked at a company that looked at alternative materials, sadly cost played to much of a factor, so I took my leave.     



Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> We are getting a lot of Pseudo-Intellectuals here today. o.o
> 
> Also: Calling someone a troll, when they disagree with your opinions is a bad debate tactic. -sips coffee-
> 
> ...



Sigh, first off, let me address your first point, I do not classify myself as a high brow intellectual, perhaps I do fit the definition but I find it most out of line to personally self classify as one.

I am well educated but I would say that was all.

As for the troll point, I did not call them a troll for the fact I disagreed with them, but that I found them to be acting in an offensive and troll like manner. 



RandyDarkshade said:


> I am so glad I am not the only one who disagreed with what kittyjess said, but I will bet my last cent she won't come back to this thread/forum.



Well here I am! 



Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> She's a fucking misanthropic retard.
> I hope she does. I have been bored and anxious all day.



Very good, I personally think that I hardly qualify for the title retard.  



RandyDarkshade said:


> She needs to take a leaf out of her own book and not be the stereotypical, pompus, I am better than you, ignorant Brit.
> 
> Judging by they way she spoke in her post I would bet she is from an "upper class" family, and the "upper class" here tend to be the most ignorant of Brits. What I diss like about the "upper class" the types that drive BMW's and other expensive cars, is the fact that many of them (not all) tend to look down on those worse off than they are, they look down on the poor and consider them "trash" which comes from the way victorians were.



I am pompus? I hardly think I am, though I can see why my language would give that feel to my posts, so in the spirt of making things a bit more informal, I have loosened it up. 

Ah now does this make me sound hip and trendy? Most likely not but hey I am willing to try. As for me being upper class, the whole idea of such things amuse me no end.

If you really want to know, I am from British, mine working family, who, managed to buck the trend and make some cash at the house rental game after the Torries forced the pits to close here (in East Durham). I call a spade a spade and have no time for rich gits or people who people who hunt here.

Most of them are toffs, are wasteful and don't care about the environment or, indeed animal rights.    

For the record, I am not and have never been a member of PETA nor do I support the vast majority of actions perpetrated by them, I was a member of a local animal rights organisation, that I may add was not affiliated in any form to PETA. I don't know of where that idea came but I assure you that it is far from correct.

As for my car, I drive a early 1993 prototype Rover, hardly the BMW (and for the record, I find BMW's send the wrong impression)

I have had a history of philanthropy, giving what I can whenever I can and I do so take the saying "don't forget your roots" to my heart



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> And there it is again. "Why can't the English teach the English how to speak?" Surely it hasn't been _lost_ on you that my grammar is far superior to yours.



Oh, I think you will find that my chosen manor of grammar that I use within my normal, slightly archaic text, is quite correct for my style and wording.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Hahahahaha. You live in the UK and don't even know about that?
> 
> They passed a law equating lolicon hentai and other such illustrations with _actual_ child pornography involving _actual_ children.
> 
> And you called me ignorant? Child, you're just proving my point.



As I have said prior in this post, I know of the law but I knew know of why you mentioned it when you did.

I do understand why the law in question was worded to make lolicon illegal and I am sure we are not the only western nation to make this so, but as I have said before, I do not comment upon laws that I do not intimately know.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Of course you may. May _I_ recommend that you take some English lessons and learn how to use commas correctly?



No you may not, but may I offer to give you the details of my period english tutor?



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Oh, so you just admitted you're an eco-terrorist?
> Um, sweetie, that fork in your arse means you're done.



I did not claim to be any kind of "terrorist", so please desist from spreading fallacies about me, Thank you =^..^=.  




Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> We's gonna have us a good ol' PETAfag-drag!!
> 
> YEEHAW!!



See above, Thank you

P.S Had to finish what work I needed to get out the way to keep the business afloat, forgive my lateness


----------



## Amethyst (Nov 19, 2009)

Though I'm not a taxidermist I am very interested in it. Unfortunately theres not many dead animals I can pick up that haven't been squashed XD.


I'd use real fur if it was from a sick animal or one that had died natural causes. Fur Farms are a no no for me.


----------



## LotsOfNothing (Nov 19, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> Words words words



Is that some kinda failed sockpuppet?   :V


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> Tl;Dr



The Eco-terrorist has returned. Rejoice.

And yes, you still qualify as a an airhead and lowly articulate, Slippery slopping, contradicting, "Holier-than-Thou" divvy  as your posts have summed up in the small time you have been here. Even though you claim to be educated,  you are still a divvy otherkin.


If you want, I can send you  plaque with your listed titles because I am such a gracious elf. :V


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> Is that some kinda failed sockpuppet?   :V



lol


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 19, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> Perhaps, well in some areas, I am hardly the jack of all trades and I assure you I wish not to be, for a jack of all trades is a master of none.
> 
> I am, however rather well read up on a multitude of subjects, most of I am sure you would not be interested in. Indeed, I may add that I have qualifications in most of that I have an interest in.


You're full of shit. In addition to having just contradicted yourself, you pointedly neglected to mention what topics those actually are.

Name the subject, and I'm sure I know more about it than you do.



> inbred rich humans.


Such as yourself?



> Amazingly I am most amicable in real life and unlike most, I am of most open mind and more than willing to see rational points of view other than my own.


A lunatic never admits he's insane.



> I feel that it the duty of most to campaign to end cruelty and in that case I did so think my actions were justified.


Of course _you_ think so. Most people, however, disagree.



> One may also had that I also know that I am animal unlike most humans and I also know that humans are hardly the gods that they do think of themselves as.


Hahahaha. You know what, bitch? Send us a picture of yourself. If--and _only _if--it's a cat typing on a keyboard, we'll stop making fun of you for your otherkin faggotry.



> Oh, I think you will find that my chosen manor of grammar that I use within my normal, slightly archaic text, is quite correct for my style and wording.


Child, even King Arthur would say you're illiterate.



> As I have said prior in this post, I know of the law but I knew know of why you mentioned it when you did.


Sounds like your problem rather than mine.
I mentioned it to illustrate what kind of stupid laws your parliament passes instead of passing useful ones.



> No you may not, but may I offer to give you the details of my period english tutor?


No thanks; I enjoy knowing how to properly form a sentence.



> I did not claim to be any kind of "terrorist", so please desist from spreading fallacies about me, Thank you =^..^=.


A terrorist resorts to violence to further a cause. You admitted to doing precisely that on at least one occasion. Spade = spade.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

kittyjess said:


> *To much BS*



Did I actually say I supported it? No I did not, I am neither against it nor for it. And I am not a toff I am far from a toff., I don't own a gun I don't go hunting. Infact I dislike fox hunting as there is no point in it. But I do not go around protesting and getting violent with the hunters, as far as I am concerned it is their life, their choice, it is not effecting me directly, foxes are not at risk from extinction, and I have much better things to do in my life and more important things in my own life to worry about which does not include what other people do with their lives.

Violence is no way to solve an issue, in this case animal cruelty.

Do you eat meat? and I actually recall you said earlier that you are ok with hunting for the meat. yet disagree with fur farms, yet it seems to me you are ok with meat farms. I find this a tad hypocritical on the count of both are cruel anyway. 

Also what about people that live in extremely cold environments like Alaska, greenland and iceland? I believe a lot of people wear real fur in those regions don't they? 

yet if anyone in a warmer country wants to wear a furr animal rights activists seem to get pissy, Double standards?

Now I am going to lay down cause I have a cold and a spli


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 19, 2009)

Ratte said:


> I could have bought a fox pelt coat.
> 
> I should have, even.
> 
> HAHA FURRIES.



I can sell you an XS womens rabbit fur coat for $25.

I also have this:


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Though I'm not a taxidermist I am very interested in it. Unfortunately theres not many dead animals I can pick up that haven't been squashed XD.
> 
> 
> I'd use real fur if it was from a sick animal or one that had died natural causes. Fur Farms are a no no for me.



I think I'll start making taxidermy plushies. so far, my fox has turned out EXCELLENT for its condition. (still has the creepiness vibe) 
I think I might do a coyote next. but I need to work on my fursuits. I got another commish last week.


----------



## Tovarich Volk (Nov 19, 2009)

Rabbit fur don't bother me at all, like leather, it's a product of the meat industry like leather. OTOH, I'm generally not a fan of fur taken from carnivores, as fur is the only reason why a lot of carnivorous animals are farmed.  --If you kill a bear or something like that for food, you are entitled to his fur, but how many people do you know of that eat Fox, Weasel, and varieties of cat?


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

Tovarich Volk said:


> Rabbit fur don't bother me at all, like leather, it's a product of the meat industry like leather. OTOH, I'm generally not a fan of fur taken from carnivores, as fur is the only reason why a lot of carnivorous animals are farmed.  --If you kill a bear or something like that for food, you are entitled to his fur, but how many people do you know of that eat Fox, Weasel, and varieties of cat?



I know a few who'd eat Fox and weasel.


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> I know a few who'd eat Fox and weasel.



I'd personally like to try fox.

just because there's so many on FA.

population needs to be cut down.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> I know a few who'd eat Fox and weasel.



Is it china that eat dogs? or another Asian country? I am pretty sure somewhere in Asia they eat dogs.

Also on the subject of fur and animal cruelty and stuff' mom was telling me today that she had heard on the local news how someone or some people had got hold of someones cat, wrapped it in laundry line, then hung it from a tree, it had struggled so much for I don't know how long the line had cut through it's flesh and into it's side. Sadly vets had no choice but to put it down.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 19, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Is it china that eat dogs? or another Asian country? I am pretty sure somewhere in Asia they eat dogs.


Phillipines. Possibly Korea, but I don't remember. China eats cats and rats, and only a small percentage actually eat cats.



> Also on the subject of fur and animal cruelty and stuff' mom was telling me today that she had heard on the local news how someone or some people had got hold of someones cat, wrapped it in laundry line, then hung it from a tree, it had struggled so much for I don't know how long the line had cut through it's flesh and into it's side. Sadly vets had no choice but to put it down.


D:


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Also on the subject of fur and animal cruelty and stuff' mom was telling me today that she had heard on the local news how someone or some people had got hold of someones cat, wrapped it in laundry line, then hung it from a tree, it had struggled so much for I don't know how long the line had cut through it's flesh and into it's side. Sadly vets had no choice but to put it down.



Poor cat. D:


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Phillipines. Possibly Korea, but I don't remember. China eats cats and rats, and only a small percentage actually eat cats.
> 
> 
> D:



Yeah, if I despise any form of animal cruelty, it is those that do such things like in my previous post, or those do not know how to look after their "pets".

Unfortunately our world has many people who, well.....are fucked up in the head.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Poor cat. D:



I know, makes me wanna do the same to the fuckers that did it to the cat.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I know, makes me wanna do the same to the fuckers that did it to the cat.



After working with animals for a period of time and seeing the shit that people have done to their pets, I feel your pain.


----------



## Tewin Follow (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> After working with animals for a period of time and seeing the shit that people have done to their pets, I feel your pain.



What kind of work did you do?


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> What kind of work did you do?



Volunteered at a Zoo before I worked at a local animal clinic. Working at the Vet was fun, but I hated the people. There were instances where people one of their family members abuse an animal, or a neighbor brought it in if they found it sick. The Bestality patients were the first encounter.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> After working with animals for a period of time and seeing the shit that people have done to their pets, I feel your pain.



I would volunteer at an animal shelter if they needed people round here. The nearest animal shelter is a place I did some electrical work at about four years ago now, they take in a variety of animals, both domestic and farm. And I had to enter one of the dog kennels to connect up the mains supply while a dog was also in there, not that I am scared of dogs, cause I'm not, but this little cocker spaniel just wanted to play the whole time I was in there!

Anyway how can anyone be so cruel to an animal?


----------



## Tewin Follow (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Volunteered at a Zoo before I worked at a local animal clinic. Working at the Vet was fun, but I hated the people.



That's really cool.
I didn't know zoos let people help out, because the animals are so valuable/dangerous/whatever, but I know they'd also need as much help as possible.
Veterin...ary people should be nice. They like animals! They've failed as people-people and have turned to the furry alternative.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> That's really cool.
> I didn't know zoos let people help out, because the animals are so valuable/dangerous/whatever, but I know they'd also need as much help as possible.
> Veterin...ary people should be nice. They like animals! They've failed as people-people and have turned to the furry alternative.



They usually let you help with the more calm animals. As much as I wanted to work with the Tigers, they wouldn't let me. So they stuck me with the farm animals and some of the less lethal reptiles.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> They usually let you help with the more calm animals. As much as I wanted to work with the Tigers, they wouldn't let me. So they stuck me with the farm animals and some of the less lethal reptiles.



I can understand why they wouldn't let you tend to the tigers or the more dangerous animals. It is not as easy as it looks to tend to a dangerous animal.


----------



## Zrcalo (Nov 19, 2009)

ugh, I just COULD NOT work as a veterinarian or a vet tec.
just the thought of putting thousands of dollars into an animal that will just die anyway seems like such a waste on resources. for the same price, you could potentially save a human life. 
that and the amount of animal abuse. it's just everywhere here. there's sooo many animals here that a good 75% of all animals that go to the pound are euthanized because there's just too many.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 19, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> ugh, I just COULD NOT work as a veterinarian or a vet tec.
> just the thought of putting thousands of dollars into an animal that will just die anyway seems like such a waste on resources. for the same price, you could potentially save a human life.
> that and the amount of animal abuse. it's just everywhere here. there's sooo many animals here that a good 75% of all animals that go to the pound are euthanized because there's just too many.



I agree, and yet naimal rights activists like kitt---whatever her name is in this thread seem to forget that alot of animal shelters have to euthanize soem animals because they can't cope.

Also a vet will urge an owner to euthanize an animal if a vet knows damn well nothing he/she will do will ever make it better, like that cat that was found hanging from a tree, or my moms dog that was struck by a train 6 years ago.


----------



## Ozriel (Nov 19, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> ugh, I just COULD NOT work as a veterinarian or a vet tec.
> just the thought of putting thousands of dollars into an animal that will just die anyway seems like such a waste on resources. for the same price, you could potentially save a human life.



It's a an either or situation. 
People love their pets like family members and would do the same thing if their kid was sick and needed medical attention. At times, animals that are trained to work do need the doctor for check ups, shots and care when they get sick or broken limbs. 
It's a waste just to "Put down" an animal that that has a broken leg that needed to be put in a cast, or a pet that has allergies (Yes, animals can get allergies), or has a gastral intestinal disorder. At times, some cannot be helped and the best thing to do is to put it down when the animal will live the rest of it's life in pain. My friend's parents have a dog that's blind and Nose and hearing deaf. The Poodle literally LOOKS like a zombie. That dog needs to die.



 The same thing could be said about humans who waste thousands of dollars instead of actually pulling the plug on a Severely ill patient that has no chance of living a normal life. Saying goodbye is hard, but it's inhumane and selfish just to let one suffer just because you want your Great Aunt to live on pain killers and on a machine.



> that and the amount of animal abuse. it's just everywhere here. there's sooo many animals here that a good 75% of all animals that go to the pound are euthanized because there's just too many.



No one takes the Bob Barker Treatment at heart.


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## ChickO'Dee (Nov 19, 2009)

the only real fur id ever own is the white fox tail i got from mideivel fair. I think real fur is terrible, but i bought one anyway, cause, well, its already dead and they're going to sell them anyways :/ not like me not buying one will effect the seller in any way because someone else is just gunna buy it :/ the idea of wearing a dead animal just doesn't suit my fancy, yknow?


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## Beastcub (Nov 19, 2009)

i have a thing for antlers, i am just fasinated by them and i have a few sets from yard sales and such.
but chances are the deer were at least eaten. 

i understand where the Op is comming from with messing with dead things and thus being a bit desensitized by the subject

i also collect bones when i find them, note that i only take well weathered clean bones when i find then, anything with flesh or an oder i do not even TOUCH. 
i have a doe skull and most of the skeleton i found on a hike, i had a plastic bag with me to pick up cans with. i found a cat skull and part of the skeleton on another hike, i have a bird skull from the beach, and a another deer skull but it was pretty degraded when i found it as it was rather old. 
and when we disected frogs in class i cleaned the bones and assembled them for extra credit (i got all fancy and made it in a jumping pose suspended with string and built a mount for it to look like its habitat, i got extra extra credit as every one else just sort of glued the parts flat on a piece of paper)


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 20, 2009)

ChickO'Dee said:


> the only real fur id ever own is the white fox tail i got from mideivel fair. I think real fur is terrible, but i bought one anyway, cause, well, its already dead and they're going to sell them anyways :/ not like me not buying one will effect the seller in any way because someone else is just gunna buy it :/ the idea of wearing a dead animal just doesn't suit my fancy, yknow?



Spellchecker is your friend, it is medieval not mideivel.

You can't think real fur is THAT terrible otherwise you would never of bought a real fox tail. And if you bought it because "the animal is already dead" did you forget that most animals are dead when the fur is obtained?


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## ChickO'Dee (Nov 20, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Spellchecker is your friend, it is medieval not mideivel.
> 
> You can't think real fur is THAT terrible otherwise you would never of bought a real fox tail. And if you bought it because "the animal is already dead" did you forget that most animals are dead when the fur is obtained?



oh hush hush. my spell check didnt support that word  you knew what i was talking about so what does it matter. at lest im not tlking lke ths! Im a terrible speller so hush hush 

yeah, the animal is already dead, nothing i can do about it  im starting to care less and less honestly. its dead, theres nothing i can do about it, or ever be ABLE to do about it so why even TRY to interfere with others lives who like to wear it? to each their own


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 20, 2009)

ChickO'Dee said:


> oh hush hush. my spell check didnt support that word  you knew what i was talking about so what does it matter. at lest im not tlking lke ths! Im a terrible speller so hush hush
> 
> yeah, the animal is already dead, nothing i can do about it  im starting to care less and less honestly. its dead, theres nothing i can do about it, or ever be ABLE to do about it so why even TRY to interfere with others lives who like to wear it? to each their own



Exactly, but some people, like a certain someone else in this thread thinks it is their "duty" to be violent and try to stop it. I feel disgusted when I hear on the news of animal rights activists who have torched (I should say "suspected of" to be fair) peoples cars who work in labs that test on animals, I mean people who work in such labs, to me, are just trying to do a days work like anyone else is, just trying to earn a living. With the testing of cosmetics like make up, that is just wrong, make up does not help humans survive, or animals survive for that matter, I mean many human meds can be used on animals, they just shrink the dosage to match the animals size. But make up is just for a humans selfish use.


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## ChickO'Dee (Nov 20, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Exactly, but some people, like a certain someone else in this thread thinks it is their "duty" to be violent and try to stop it. I feel disgusted when I hear on the news of animal rights activists who have torched (I should say "suspected of" to be fair) peoples cars who work in labs that test on animals, I mean people who work in such labs, to me, are just trying to do a days work like anyone else is, just trying to earn a living. With the testing of cosmetics like make up, that is just wrong, make up does not help humans survive, or animals survive for that matter, I mean many human meds can be used on animals, they just shrink the dosage to match the animals size. But make up is just for a humans selfish use.


  EXACTLY. thats how i feel. some things are disgusting, but at the same time some things have to be done. but other things aren't necessary. I try to avoid animal products for my own reasons, but if its already there, theres nothing i can do about it. either the product is going to be sold to someone else, or thrown away, me buying it or not buying it isnt going to make much of a difference.  have leather boots and i have a fox tail,that doesn't mean i support killing animals. at least im respecting the product when i own it. I like to think that counts for something.


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## Kittiara (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't really ever hear from the actual "touchy" people on this subject.  Like, I go to a con and everybody's wearing a real fox tail.  I actually didn't bring mine to AC'08 because I thought furries would be against it.  NOPE EVERYBODY'S GOT ONE.

Funny.


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## -Guy- (Nov 20, 2009)

I mean, fur is great, as long as the animal is already dead. If it is alive and they want it's fur, I'm not for that. If it's dead, you shouldn't let the fur go to waste, but if it's alive, that isn't the best idea.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 20, 2009)

Kittiara said:


> I don't really ever hear from the actual "touchy" people on this subject.  Like, I go to a con and everybody's wearing a real fox tail.  I actually didn't bring mine to AC'08 because I thought furries would be against it.  NOPE EVERYBODY'S GOT ONE.
> 
> Funny.



A lot of people think furries would be against real fur and meat etc, but the truth is, most don't care.


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## Skidd (Nov 20, 2009)

Beastcub said:


> i have a thing for antlers, i am just fasinated by them and i have a few sets from yard sales and such.
> but chances are the deer were at least eaten.
> 
> i understand where the Op is comming from with messing with dead things and thus being a bit desensitized by the subject
> ...




Antlers are naturally shed, anyways. Deer don't have to die for antlers. *shrug* Though you're not likely to find antlers sitting around because they're used as a source of calcium for deer and other animals. Nomnomnom.

I've articulated an ostrich skeleton myself, and was part of the bone-collecting process for it. Some of our bones DID have some dried up old flesh on it, and Let Me Tell You, they're a pain to pull off. Pliers are good for that, though.

*cough* I have a mystery pelvis that sits on my dresser that I took that day we were out bone-collecting, too. Possibly a lamb or fox or very large jackrabbit. I don't know. *shrug* :3


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## ShadowEon (Nov 21, 2009)

Completely against fur. It's sick that people would wear real tails of foxes places,that's barbaric. There is faux-fur,freaking wear it. I don't get why such a great amount of people here-on a furry forum- could care less about actual animals. People's excuses for finding  it to be okay/wearing it is "it's so beautiful". That doesn't justify skinning a live animal or killing it just for their fur. Sure,it may look nice,but when you know what happened to the animal that once was the owner of that fur,it's no longer beautiful.


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## Farelle (Nov 21, 2009)

well...i think it depends on the sight....

if you think about it, earlier, humans always eated animals and made clothes out of it, so its no wonder for me that some aren't really interested....but it depends on what animal it is, where you got it from and why you can have this fur now...


if its from an sheep, or an deer that got hunted because it was ill or should be eaten....then its ok, because its life did not end only because of the fur....it had more uses....to say it simple practically...


but if its only killed for its fur, maybe still alive when skinned....THEN i dont wanna wear it....its cruel and i've seen videos about it....

people really should be concern about WHERE they get their fur from....


else...i thought about using it, but to be honest, i cant stretch the real fur because of the leather aspect and so i couldnt get it in a good form for me 

so I'll stay with synthetik fur...also, actually there is not much difference anymore between faux fur and real fur....so why using real "lifes" for it?
its not really worth it...-.-


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 21, 2009)

ShadowEon said:


> Completely against fur. It's sick that people would wear real tails of foxes places,that's barbaric. There is faux-fur,freaking wear it. I don't get why such a great amount of people here-on a furry forum- could care less about actual animals. People's excuses for finding  it to be okay/wearing it is "it's so beautiful". That doesn't justify skinning a live animal or killing it just for their fur. Sure,it may look nice,but when you know what happened to the animal that once was the owner of that fur,it's no longer beautiful.



Do you eat meat?


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 21, 2009)

ShadowEon said:


> Completely against fur. It's sick that people would wear real tails of foxes places,that's barbaric. There is faux-fur,freaking wear it. I don't get why such a great amount of people here-on a furry forum- could care less about actual animals. People's excuses for finding  it to be okay/wearing it is "it's so beautiful". That doesn't justify skinning a live animal or killing it just for their fur. Sure,it may look nice,but when you know what happened to the animal that once was the owner of that fur,it's no longer beautiful.



>implying furries need to place animals above humans.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 21, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> >implying furries need to place animals above humans.



I know. I hate it when people do that. For some reason some furries seem to think we all should "worship the animals" believe it or not people furries are humans too, having an interest in art/cartoons and what ever other fictional stuff the fandom revolves around does not mean we should automaticaly LOVE! animals.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 21, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I know. I hate it when people do that. For some reason some furries seem to think we all should "worship the animals" believe it or not people furries are humans too, having an interest in art/cartoons and what ever other fictional stuff the fandom revolves around does not mean we should automaticaly LOVE! animals.



ugh. reminds me of fucking vegan peta mongerers.


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## ShadowEon (Nov 21, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I know. I hate it when people do that. For some reason some furries seem to think we all should "worship the animals" believe it or not people furries are humans too, having an interest in art/cartoons and what ever other fictional stuff the fandom revolves around does not mean we should automaticaly LOVE! animals.



I am not saying we should put animals above people but I think we should certainly give a shit about them. I mean in another thread certain people didn't even care that a dog was thrown over a bridge-that's okay?


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 21, 2009)

ShadowEon said:


> I am not saying we should put animals above people but I think we should certainly give a shit about them. I mean in another thread certain people didn't even care that a dog was thrown over a bridge-that's okay?



I give a shit about them by wearing their deads' skin.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 21, 2009)

ShadowEon said:


> I am not saying we should put animals above people but I think we should certainly give a shit about them. I mean in another thread certain people didn't even care that a dog was thrown over a bridge-that's okay?



I didn't know there was a thread about that. o.o

Hell, I give a crap about pointless cruelty like that, I recently heard (in the uk again, not that far from me either) that some twat(s) decided to wrap someones cat in a washing line and hang it from a tree. The cat must of been struggling to free itself for a long time as it had a very bad, very deep wound in it's side where the line had cut into it.

Needless to say a vet had no option but to Euthanize it.

As for meat, I see meat as an everyday necessity, as a very large majority of humans eat meat. Fur, depending on how the fur is got in the first place, from a hunted kill that will be eaten? That's fine, skinned while it is alive? thats not okay.


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## Doug (Nov 21, 2009)

Meh, I don't care. Certain animals are severely overpopulated anyway.

Real fur is much better in things like thick blankets, makes it much warmer. And no, I don't mind the fact that animals died to keep me warm, that's survival.


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 21, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I didn't know there was a thread about that. o.o



It was in R&R.  People were upset, they just weren't being as up in arms about it as OP.  It's the internet; we've seen it all before.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 21, 2009)

Doug said:


> Meh, I don't care. Certain animals are severely overpopulated anyway.



Like humans for one.



LotsOfNothing said:


> It was in R&R.  People were upset, they just weren't being as up in arms about it as OP.  It's the internet; we've seen it all before.



I heard of it on the news here. Things like that do anger me but wtf can you do after the event? and the guy was busted for it anyway.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 22, 2009)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> It's a an either or situation.
> People love their pets like family members and would do the same thing if their kid was sick and needed medical attention. At times, animals that are trained to work do need the doctor for check ups, shots and care when they get sick or broken limbs.
> It's a waste just to "Put down" an animal that that has a broken leg that needed to be put in a cast, or a pet that has allergies (Yes, animals can get allergies), or has a gastral intestinal disorder. At times, some cannot be helped and the best thing to do is to put it down when the animal will live the rest of it's life in pain. My friend's parents have a dog that's blind and Nose and hearing deaf. The Poodle literally LOOKS like a zombie. That dog needs to die.
> 
> ...




I completely agree with this. 
our next topic in bio-ethics is euthanasia.


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## alaskawolf (Nov 22, 2009)

Telnac said:


> .
> 
> I'm still not fond of the idea of wearing fur simply as a fashion statement.  The reason I'd wear fur is the same reason I wear leather: it's functional.  Good quality real leather is some of the toughest clothing material in existence, and it's both warm and nearly waterproof.  Fur is far warmer than fake fur (a useful fact if you live in places where -20F isn't uncommon.)  For those reasons alone, I'm 100% cool with wearing fur.
> 
> ...



quite true it really is nice in the cold


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## Zrcalo (Nov 23, 2009)

alaskawolf said:


> quite true it really is nice in the cold



I like leather jackets when it's cold.
pleather just shreds and becomes nasty.


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## alaskawolf (Nov 23, 2009)

moat of my winter gear is think leather coats with fur lining


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## Jaxinc (Nov 23, 2009)

TheNewfie said:


> I don't really care as long as you got the furs from a hunter a not some fram.


I agree here.

Farming anything for a product is probably the cruelest thing that can be done.

My father hunted when he was in his teens to 30s to bring food in for the Family, I inherited his re-curve bow. I have nothing against hunting as long as nothing is wasted.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 24, 2009)

Jaxinc said:


> I agree here.
> 
> Farming anything for a product is probably the cruelest thing that can be done.
> 
> My father hunted when he was in his teens to 30s to bring food in for the Family, I inherited his re-curve bow. I have nothing against hunting as long as nothing is wasted.



I am completely against farmed furs, but unfortunately unless you buy the actual pelt and make your own clothes, it's nearly impossible to tell which is farmed and which is hunted.
even with price, and there could be a combination of both farmed fur and hunted fur on one coat.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

I can't really come up with a LOGICAL reason for it, but I have a hatred for farmed fur.  I just... don't like it.  Something about farmed fur bothers me and I really don't know exactly what.

Other than that, seems a little creepy to make a fursuit with real fur to me, but whatever works for you.


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## Takoto (Nov 24, 2009)

Doesn't bother me, but I wouldn't wear it.

I mean, if the animal's fur it is was killed humanely then, okay, but if it was slow/painful/ect then I think that's wrong.


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## Zrcalo (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I can't really come up with a LOGICAL reason for it, but I have a hatred for farmed fur.  I just... don't like it.  Something about farmed fur bothers me and I really don't know exactly what.
> 
> Other than that, seems a little creepy to make a fursuit with real fur to me, but whatever works for you.



wow. you must have a 6th sense.

just do some google searching about "fur farms"
D: poor widdle animawls!


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