# How long does it take for a Traditional Artist to draw perfectly on a Wacom?



## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm NOT talking about the cintiq, I'm taking about wacom tablets like Intuos.
Where you're drawing a black board and you can only see what you're drawing on a different screen.
I've tried bamboo before, it's so hard to make perfect lines.


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## Taralack (Feb 26, 2014)

It differs depending on the person. I have pretty good hand-eye coordination from playing lots of rhythm games, so transitioning from traditional drawing to tablet drawing was no sweat for me. 

Honestly the only answer is to keep at it. Repetition will help with muscle memory and improving the hand-eye coordination needed. Don't take to it like it's a chore or something you have to do, otherwise you won't enjoy it. Just doodle stuff.


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## Aggro (Feb 26, 2014)

This answer can vary greatly. A learning curve depends on a lot of things. But seeing as you seem pretty good already, id guess about 6-7 months to be very good, as long as you already know what you're doing!


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## Taralack (Feb 26, 2014)

Aggro said:


> But seeing as you seem pretty good already



I don't see how you could have gotten this impression, since OP has not linked their gallery anywhere. If it's from their avatar, those panting icons are done by Centch.


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 26, 2014)

How long or how many times a day should I practice?
30 minutes maybe?


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## Taralack (Feb 26, 2014)

An hour is usually a good amount of time to set aside for art study and practice. But as I said before, you shouldn't approach it as a chore, otherwise you'll never enjoy it. It's good to schedule a specific time to do it, but don't go for any longer or shorter when you don't feel like it. 

On the other hand, discipline is key to mastering art. So really, it's up to you.


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 26, 2014)

My laptop made it frustrating to draw because I had to put the bamboo on top of the keyboard.
Do you know a way to make drawing using the laptop as the screen less frustrating?


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## Ayattar (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm going to buy my first tablet tommorow, so I'll be able to give you an answer pretty soon


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## Taralack (Feb 26, 2014)

Crystal_the_Vixen said:


> My laptop made it frustrating to draw because I had to put the bamboo on top of the keyboard.
> Do you know a way to make drawing using the laptop as the screen less frustrating?



Find a bigger table. Or put the tablet on your lap. When I first started drawing with a tablet my parent's computer table was too small to put it on the desk and I had to draw with it on my lap. Some people like to put the tablet where they would usually put a mouse, but I prefer having it in front of me. 

Oh, one thing you could do to improve coordination with a tablet is just to use the tablet like your mouse. That will help greatly.


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## Charrio (Feb 26, 2014)

Unless you apply yourself and get past that intimidation factor of a new tool and program it can take a while. 
Took me a quite a while as I was coming from a traditional background so was slow to take up the Tablet for more than coloring.
Now however am all Digital and feel confident using tablets.


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 26, 2014)

How about taping the tablet on top of the keyboard?


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## Taralack (Feb 26, 2014)

Crystal_the_Vixen said:


> How about taping the tablet on top of the keyboard?



Uhhhhm lol what. No, I wouldn't recommend it. You still need the keyboard for things like typing filenames and using shortcut keys, and it might ruin your laptop if you lean too hard on the tablet. 

*shrugs* Your discretion though.


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 27, 2014)

okay.


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## Valery91Thunder (Feb 27, 2014)

It can be awkward at first that's true, but I don't really see this being unsolvable as a problem.
Do you use your mouse or trackpad looking at your hand move while you're pointing things on the screen? Do you type contantly looking at the keyboard instead of looking at the words appear onscreen? Do you play games by lookine at your fingers pushing the control buttons, do you just look the character moving in the game? If you happen to play an instrument, do you have difficulties placing your fingers on the right keys while looking at the music sheet?
If you answered "no" to most of those questions, you'll realize you have more hand/eye coordination that you thought!  It can be improved, but honestly it's something we do naturally for a lot of things and nothing extraordinairy.


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## Raelight (Feb 27, 2014)

I use a Wacom with a fairly large contact area, and I've gotten used to just holding it like a pad and drawing sitting on my bed or wherever I am.  I don't have a lot of desk space at home since my sewing machine is taking up that space, but you'll find a method for drawing and get used to it the more you use it, just like everyone's saying.  

I've also found that playing certain flash games using the tablet as a mouse is a good way to build your coordination with it, if you need.


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## DeCatt (Feb 27, 2014)

Wacom tablets are usually easier to use if they are directly in front of and centered with the screen. I use it this way with both my laptop and my desktop, if you use the laptop just set it up on the kitchen table so there is enough room for comfort.


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## Terror-Run (Feb 27, 2014)

I made the transition from regular paper to intuos 4 in a couple months. I got "used" to it pretty fast, within a day or two, but I didn't feel on-par with what I could draw traditionally before after 2 months. Then again I do draw 6h a day.
I found that the line stabilizer tool Lazynesumi have greatly helped me in the last week to get things smoother - it's not an excuse to not practice properly, but man does it help with the line-work ^^,  (which I've never been good with btw, I'm more of a painter)


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 27, 2014)

I watched videos of artists putting their wacom on top of the keyboard, I don't see anything wrong about it.
http://youtu.be/obmjgm8vY98
I want to get a intous the same size as my keyboard.
I have a Toshiba satellite l775, I'm thinking the medium intuos is similiar to it's size.
What do you think?


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## Tica (Feb 27, 2014)

I always hold my tablet in my lap... putting it on my keyboard would be hella awkward. one of the cool things about tablets too is they don't have to be parallel to the table or anything like a piece of paper does. leads to some interesting posture on my part 

and dude you already have a decent tablet, stop tryin to (get your mama to) buy a new one till you're comfy with the one you have

OP, srsly, just practice and have fun and stop being so gorram impatient. It took me 10+ years of serious art-ing to get to the level of art in my avatar and profile pic on here. and that included a transition from pencils to an Intuos3.

why don't you keep up with traditional art as well? buy some blue colored pencils (iirc you said you react to graphite) and lay down your sketches manually, then you can practice either inking or coloring digitally from there.


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## Terror-Run (Feb 27, 2014)

Crystal_the_Vixen said:


> I watched videos of artists putting their wacom on top of the keyboard, I don't see anything wrong about it.
> http://youtu.be/obmjgm8vY98
> I want to get a intous the same size as my keyboard.
> I have a Toshiba satellite l775, I'm thinking the medium intuos is similiar to it's size.
> What do you think?




I don't see anything immediately bad with it (I've put my things through worse to put it like that). But I would suggest putting a hard board/sheet of some sort just to protect the actual keys and sensitivity 
Edit; and I also keep a clear sheet of hard plastic on my intuos xD because.... I have a tendency to spill warm drinks on my electronics. it also helps against getting scratches and makes the nib last a little longer.


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## Evriale (Feb 27, 2014)

I use my tablet with laptop, but I never put it on keyboard (although it sits perfectly, doesn't even touch the buttons ) The reason is that I use keyboard all the time during drawing to change tool, undo, switch colors etc. My personal opinion is that everyone should use keyboard for this, it is much easier than having to move your pen around so much to do that, especially if you have a large tablet. I hate having to select tools with pen...


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## DragonFoxDemon (Feb 27, 2014)

It really just takes time. It is a new tool and you have to get use to it. I think it took about six months for me to get comfortable using my tablet (comfortable not good). I used my tablet as a mouse too, so I would get a feel for it when I wasn't drawing.
I used a laptop with a tablet for several years (still do if my desktop has a fit), I wouldn't recommend putting the tablet on the keyboard. That just sounds awkward and you may need the keyboard for shortcuts not assigned to tablet buttons. Put your laptop on a table or some kind of base in front of you and your tablet in your lap. Do you put your paper on top of your laptop to draw? Mostly likely not, so why the tablet?

Like Tica said, keep up with your traditional work also. The tools are different but the skills can transfer.


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## RTDragon (Feb 27, 2014)

Taralack said:


> I don't see how you could have gotten this impression, since OP has not linked their gallery anywhere. If it's from their avatar, those panting icons are done by Centch.



While we are on topic here is their gallery http://www.furaffinity.net/gallery/crystalthevixen/ though OP considering your gallery has mostly cartoony traditional art. It's probably best to draw them traditionally then practie using the tablet to ink them since it does help quite a lot.


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## ceacar99 (Feb 27, 2014)

The tablet for me is VERY difficult. i originally learned how to draw by constantly either rotating my paper/canvas or walking around it if its too large. I think i may give it another shot as i've practiced tip control a great deal and i find myself turning the paper less and less these days. strangely enough i hold one end of the clipboard propping the other against my shoulder like a violin 

i dunno if that will help you but try that "violin position" with your tablet and see if that helps.


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## Zenia (Feb 27, 2014)

It only took me a few pictures to get the hand-eye coordination. It took longer to become good at digital drawings, only because I wasn't a very good artist to start with when I got the tablet. Now, I like drawing on the tablet more than on paper.

As for placement, I put mine beside my laptop (or keyboard when I am home on the desktop computer) just to the right (as I am right-handed) and that is most comfortable for me. I used to have it set up so the tablet was directly over the keyboard... the tablet was on the top of the desk and the keyboard was in the keyboard tray, but I just bought a new desk that is really wide so I have room for everything on one level.


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## Sammacha (Feb 27, 2014)

As everyone has said just continue to practice and every time you will get a bit better.
you may also need to get used to the settings, it took me about an hour to learn how to draw on a tablet similarly to how i draw on paper but it took me 2-3 hours to figure out what settings I like to use in each program for different styles.


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## Ayattar (Feb 27, 2014)

I have a question. Is there any way to make tablet working like mouse? What i mean is that i'd like to have my cursor/brush/marker staying where i left it, right now its all the time pointing to a place that my pen is. I know that i can get used to it, but i'd prefer it the old way - right now i really need to work with my arm too much and it's really tiring for my muscles. Id prefer to work only with my wrist, not the whole hand

Right now after 15 minutes of using my tablet my precision is exactly the same as when im using mouse


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## Zenia (Feb 27, 2014)

I think you can put it into "mouse mode" in the tablet settings. I am not sure if that disables the pressure or not though as I've never used it. I much prefer the way each spot on the tablet always corresponds to the same spot on the screen.


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## Ayattar (Feb 27, 2014)

Ahh now i see it. I guess im just blind  Ok. after checking it i can say that my precision is already better then with a mouse


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 27, 2014)

Tica said:


> I always hold my tablet in my lap... putting it on my keyboard would be hella awkward. one of the cool things about tablets too is they don't have to be parallel to the table or anything like a piece of paper does. leads to some interesting posture on my part
> 
> and dude you already have a decent tablet, stop tryin to (get your mama to) buy a new one till you're comfy with the one you have
> 
> ...



I returned the bamboo a long time ago due to issues I don't wanna repeat saying, I talked about it on the other thread.


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## Schwimmwagen (Feb 27, 2014)

Crystal_the_Vixen said:


> How long or how many times a day *should* I practice?
> 30 minutes maybe?



This isn't thought you should be entertaining at all, if you're excited about getting good at something you should be practising a lot because you WANT to get good as opposed to asking someone else what the minimum requirements to get good are because you don't fancy the tedious work.

 Approach it as a thing you're going to learn to like doing, not as a chore. Become a wanna-do rather than a wanna-be, if you get my drift.

Practise for as long as YOU feel you need to (or want to) within the window of free time you have during the day.

You may find that filling pages of ovals, ellipses, 3d primitives, etc with some of your fave music on is actually quite theraputic. It really helps you loosen up.


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## Crystal_the_Vixen (Feb 27, 2014)

I'll try my best with that.


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## Ayattar (Feb 27, 2014)

Okay, answering your question.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12850896/

My very first picture done with tablet. Quality of this one is a bit better than of pics that I drew with my mouse, but it's still not the level of my pencil. Although I feel that during last 5 hours I already improved a bit. Still, the biggest difference is the time of drawing. I think that I saved ca 3 hours thanks to using tablet and it can only get better.

Also - finally - i can freely sketch using photoshop, so i can manage without scanning.


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## soak (Feb 27, 2014)

It wasn't very hard for me to transition from traditional to a wacom tablet. I didn't for say practice for a certain amount of time every day, I just drew when I felt like it and gradually improved. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This is the one I have, and I'd say it's very good for beginners and not too expensive.
As Tica does, I also hold my tablet in my lap. 
Here is about a year and a half maybe? of improvement from my tablet drawings:
1) http://i.imgur.com/ZeETI1x.jpg
2) http://i.imgur.com/c8MdJj2.png


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## Kragith Zedrok (Feb 28, 2014)

Is the Wacom the best tablet to start out with? Or is there something better? For beginners that is.


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## Sammacha (Feb 28, 2014)

Ayattar said:


> I have a question. Is there any way to make tablet working like mouse? What i mean is that i'd like to have my cursor/brush/marker staying where i left it, right now its all the time pointing to a place that my pen is. I know that i can get used to it, but i'd prefer it the old way - right now i really need to work with my arm too much and it's really tiring for my muscles. Id prefer to work only with my wrist, not the whole hand
> 
> Right now after 15 minutes of using my tablet my precision is exactly the same as when im using mouse



yes you can, its in your tablet settings, the pen will work the same but the pen lock will be off. Depending on your tablet it can be called anything  mouse mode, pen lock off, basic mod etc. but it just a box you check on or off depending on what your doing


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## Antumbra (Feb 28, 2014)

FFox97 said:


> Is the Wacom the best tablet to start out with? Or is there something better? For beginners that is.



I started with an Intuos 3 for my first tablet because it had the buttons on both sides (and I'm left handed).  Now they make it reversable on the Intuos 5.  I loved it from the start and I still use it today.  I really suggest Wacom.


For the OP, I gradually started to sketch on my tablet instead of paper, I got used to it after about a couple of weeks.  I put my tablet on my lap and my laptop on a table, or if I'm on the couch/mobile I put my lappy on my lap and the tablet on an armrest.  You get used to it in different spots after a while.  I avoided placing it on my keyboard so I could use the shortcuts (CTRL+Z!!!!!) quickly.


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## Zenia (Feb 28, 2014)

Antumbra said:


> Now they make it reversable on the Intuos 5.


It is reversible on the Intuos4 as well.  And yeah, shortcut keys are fantastic. I always have my left hand (as I draw with my right) on the keys to easily do things.

pinky - CTRL
ring - Z
middle - X
pointer - SPACE/ALT

I can do lots with that.


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## Tica (Feb 28, 2014)

I mapped the keys on my wacom to ctrl + Z, ctrl + Y, and ctrl + X... and I think I put ctrl + C and ctrl + V on the other side.


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## Antumbra (Mar 1, 2014)

Zenia said:


> It is reversible on the Intuos4 as well.  And yeah, shortcut keys are fantastic. I always have my left hand (as I draw with my right) on the keys to easily do things.
> 
> pinky - CTRL
> ring - Z
> ...



I should really think about upgrading!


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## rjbartrop (Mar 1, 2014)

Like everyone else has been saying, just keep at it, and approach it as something to get to do, rather than something you have to do.   I do find keeping your attention on the cursor on the screen, rather than on what your hand is doing helps a lot.  Don't worry overly much about getting things perfect the first time out.   When I first got Photoshop, I spent the first couple of days making colourful messes like a kid, just seeing what kind of marks I could make with it.

 Keeping your tablet on the keyboard is not a good idea because when you have to do a lot of switching between tools,  you'll find those keyboard shortcuts will really save you time.  You don't have to memorize all of them, but if you're using Photoshop, the ones you'll be using the most will probably be CTRL (Move tool) Alt (colour picker) Space (Hand tool), and B (Brush).  Alt-F2 and Alt-F3 are also handy for flipping the image around as you work.   The setup I like to work with has the tablet on a stand beside my chair, and the keyboard on my lap (I use a tower PC).   I draw with my right, while I operate the keyboard shortcuts with my left.


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## Ayattar (Mar 1, 2014)

Well, two pictures behind me and I'm already on a comparable level or better with tablet than I'm with traditional art. At least when it comes to colours and simple sketching. About complex pencil-like art I can't tell since I still didn't tried it yet (but i doubt that i'd be better with tablet, since I still lack my pencils' surgical precicion)

I can't imagine drawing something like that using paint and brush, since I was always shitty with it.


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## RustyWolf (Mar 14, 2014)

It really depends, ive been using tablets since i was 8 so it was easy for me


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## Yamidog (Mar 14, 2014)

For me, after ages of traditional art I picked up a Bamboo Pen tablet and it took almost exactly two years before I felt as comfortable as with traditional media. It takes a few months to get used to it - drawing away from the canvas seems really detached at first - and painting software doesn't feel the same as real media so that's strange too.

As for placement, I keep my keyboard on my lap or on a slide-out desk shelf. If you use a laptop you can get a cheapy additional keyboard and use that instead so you aren't reaching over to get to the laptop keyboard (or putting your tablet on it >.<).


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## MechaChick (Mar 24, 2014)

Originally I use to be all about drawing and sketching on paper. I use to do that and upload it, but now I just do it directly on my tablet. I found moving from traditional to digital a little strange at first. For one, the pen is thicker than the pencils I once used, and the feel of the pen on the tablet surface. It took a couple of days to get completely comfortable, it took a month or so to feel comfortable with Paint tool Sai after that. Every individual is different and some adapt quicker than others. 

People will try suggesting various positions in how to place the tablet, and even the tablet itself in the instructions (In some cases like mine) will tell you how to set it on the desk. I for one have it slanted completely, the reason being, the best position is the position you feel most comfortable in sketching with. So if you've always had your hand angled at a specific one, then that is your comfort angle, set your tablet accordingly.


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## Inignem (Mar 26, 2014)

Taralack said:


> An hour is usually a good amount of time to set aside for art study and practice. But as I said before, you shouldn't approach it as a chore, otherwise you'll never enjoy it. It's good to schedule a specific time to do it, but don't go for any longer or shorter when you don't feel like it.
> 
> On the other hand, discipline is key to mastering art. So really, it's up to you.



Only people with natural talent like Mozart can enjoy art. For the rest of people, it is just a miserable and frustrating process where pain is the only constant. Art is more painful than a chore, art is more like a via crucis, a weight to carry, a pain to endure.


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## Taralack (Mar 26, 2014)

Inignem said:


> Only people with natural talent like Mozart can enjoy art. For the rest of people, it is just a miserable and frustrating process where pain is the only constant. Art is more painful than a chore, art is more like a via crucis, a weight to carry, a pain to endure.



Right... 

Maybe if you don't get any enjoyment from art (because yes, one can enjoy the painful cycle of realization and improvement) then maybe it is not for you.


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## Socks the Fox (Mar 26, 2014)

Taralack said:


> Right...
> 
> Maybe if you don't get any enjoyment from art (because yes, one can enjoy the painful cycle of realization and improvement) then maybe it is not for you.



Maybe this will help you.


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## Inignem (Mar 26, 2014)

Taralack said:


> Right...
> 
> Maybe if you don't get any enjoyment from art (because yes, one can enjoy the painful cycle of realization and improvement) then maybe it is not for you.



Basically you are telling me that I should quit art for not being a sadomasochist like you.

I have a bigger drive to draw, one possibly bigger than sadomasochism.


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## Schwimmwagen (Mar 27, 2014)

Inignem said:


> Only people with natural talent like Mozart can enjoy art.



People like to draw because that shit is fucking fun.


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## Inignem (Mar 27, 2014)

To all those who think that artists only get better with time, that if you practise and suffer long enough you will become grand, allow me to expose you how "talent" is genetic and most of us are nothing but disposable genetic material:

https://akiane.com/


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## Hewge (Mar 28, 2014)

Inignem said:


> To all those who think that artists only get better with time, that if you practise and suffer long enough you will become grand, allow me to expose you how "talent" is genetic and most of us are nothing but disposable genetic material:
> 
> https://akiane.com/



Of course some talent exists. Definitely not to the extent people make it, though. And if it does, it's just one in a million. Well... a whole lot more than one million, but you get the point.

Also - after looking into more info on this lady, she has a significantly higher number of drawings and paintings than shown on the website you linked(obviously). As in thousands more. Which is understandable, got to pick the ones that make people go "wow!" and all.
Your Website link also seems to have not been updated in a couple years. She's very almost 20 by now.

Most people don't develop such a large sort of passion or dedication towards something until a much later age, which would be a big reason most "people who can draw" are 18+, as they develop their interest a few years before hand, and then gain some experience to the point they're able to actually decide they want to spend their life doing it.

Where as this girl was home schooled and has had absolute *fuck loads* of time to dedicate to art since she was just a child. And dedicate, she did! I mean, for reals. I can't think of many kids that would want to just draw and write for hours upon hours every single day. She has over a decade of hard-on experience, yo.

Honestly - all I see is a girl who had a high knack for something, developed a passion for it at a very early age, and then dedicated her life to honing it.

This is all a bit off-topic, by the way. I think the OP has gotten her answers already.


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## Inignem (Mar 28, 2014)

Hewge said:


> Of course some talent exists. Definitely not to the extent people make it, though. And if it does, it's just one in a million. Well... a whole lot more than one million, but you get the point.
> 
> Also - after looking into more info on this lady, she has a significantly higher number of drawings and paintings than shown on the website you linked(obviously). As in thousands more. Which is understandable, got to pick the ones that make people go "wow!" and all.
> Your Website link also seems to have not been updated in a couple years. She's very almost 20 by now.
> ...



That does not change the fact that before hitting legal age she did better art than most artists on earth, art that good artists take some years to acchieve. Natural selection should blow us all away into the void, we do not deserve to breathe the same air than the true geniuses.


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## Icky (Mar 28, 2014)

Hewge said:


> She has over a decade of hard-on experience, yo.



Hard-on experience, indeed.


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## Hewge (Mar 28, 2014)

Inignem said:


> That does not change the fact that before hitting legal age she did better art than most artists on earth, art that good artists take some years to acchieve. Natural selection should blow us all away into the void, we do not deserve to breathe the same air than the true geniuses.



It _seems_ you have ignored half of, if not all of the point and reasoning behind my post, or totally missed the point all-together.
Sucks to be you, I guess.

_Either way;_ it appears you enjoy creating unnecessary and, to be honest, incredibly pointless and content-less posts with seemingly the only purpose to irk or pull a reaction out of others. With to which I say:

thanks for the stimulation, but I would really prefer to be doing something else. And so; I will.


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## Abbi Normal (Mar 28, 2014)

Inignem said:


> Only people with natural talent like Mozart can  enjoy art. For the rest of people, it is just a miserable and  frustrating process where pain is the only constant. Art is more painful  than a chore, art is more like a via crucis, a weight to carry, a pain  to endure.



Um...I legitimately and completely enjoy art, multiple fields thereof in fact? So by your logic I  must be an amazing Mozart-like natural talent. Thank you, I guess I  think? I'm not, but...thanks I guess anyways sort of? I mean, I don't  even think I'm that good (and I imagine other people would be swift to  agree), but that's doesn't mean I can't do what I love. Not being  perfect or the best is not the end of the world. I'm as good as I can be  and tomorrow I know I will be better, because I do art because I love  it, it makes me happy, I'm proud of what I do. And there's no amount of  cynicism from you that can make me less happy about art. And no anyone  else either. Do you honestly believe that every single person who ever  told you they enjoy drawing was a prodigy? Cause that's an WHOLE LOT of  prodigies. If you know what that word means, you should understand the  logical inconsistency there.

I repeat: I do art because I love art. Art is great. I love everything about every medium I work in. _It makes me happy, or I wouldn't be doing it every day._  I'm not even that good, and don't have to be to enjoy my hobbies. It's  as simple as that. You can't tell me it doesn't make me happy, I'm  pretty sure I know better how I feel about art (and anything else) than  you do. Even doing a bad job makes me happy because now I know better  for next time. You can't tell me how to experience art, and you can't  force me not to be happy while working on my art. You cannot steal away  my happiness, I am happy despite you and _because of my art_ and you literally can't stop me. 

Why is it so important to you that everybody hate what they love?

Maybe you'd be happier and better at art if you didn't treat picking up a  damn pencil like you're opening a vein and bleeding over the page, and  it's some life and death situation. It's just pretty pictures dude.  Relax, breath, smile, improve little by little day by day. I think you'd  be happier in general if you stopped taking every single thing in life  and relentlessly grinding it down until you figure out a way it can make  you miserable. And then demanding it make everyone else as miserable as  it makes you. 

Why would you do that?

You can't force people to be miserable with you, much less be miserable  about things that make them happy, and I can't wrap my mind around tha  kind of thinking that would make that make sense. It doesn't work  because everyone else is to busy actually enjoying the things they love,  because they love doing them and no other reason. You need to find something you love and enjoy  it too, without all this judgement and forced pessimism. For your own  mental health, stop this. Just take a deep breath and just smile and  have fun for just once. 

Geesh.


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## Taralack (Mar 28, 2014)

Let's stop baiting the troll.


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