# Furries vs. Therians



## Translord (Mar 9, 2012)

Something that has come to my attention on this forum is that there seems to be slight confusion about this topic: Furries vs. Otherkin. There seems to be thought that they're the same thing or some people just don't know what therians are, so I thought I'd explain. 

Here are the main points of the different labels/identities: 

*Furries/Furs (Hobby):*
- may or may not suit
- if they do, they do it for enjoyment, as a hobby, to make people smile, etc. 
- generally do not feel a spiritual connection
- Not all furries have sex in their suits, I hope we all know this. As I think we all know, not many furries even have suits to begin with, and if they do, it's not all of them that do this. It's a subdivision that gets brought to people's attention more so than the others. 

*Lifestylers (More extreme than a hobby): *(This has only just been explained to me, however, I did correct some previous mistakes) 
- This is the furries who are really into the fandom.
- They surround themselves with the fandom, and they may or may not suit
- The fandom surrounds their way of life, like a lifestyle (thus the term lifestylers). 


*Therians/Therianthropes/Therianthropy: (Also referred to as weres on occasion) (Religious/Spiritual View) *
- may or may not be furries
- this is a spiritual thing- when one believes they have the soul of an animal, are an animal, or feel a strong spiritual bond to an animal- key phrase here- *or they feel a strong spiritual bond*, such as having a totem or guide animal.
- to every therian, being a therian has a different definition, so don't assume that because someone calls themself a therian, that they think they're an animal and they go around running on all fours like a crazy person. Most therians (all the ones I know) are sensible and know how to behave. We weren't raised by wolves after all! Just as not all furries go and have sex in their suits, not all therians even believe anything like being the animal they connect to. For some, it's simply connecting deeply to a particular species. So remember not all therians have the same definition of therianthropy. 
-'weres' was the original term, before the belief of souls was brought into the term. This was based off of the 'shifting' concept. 

*Otherkin (Religious/Spiritual View) 
*- there's a bit of a blur between therians and otherkin- once these two were separate things, though now some consider them the same and others consider them different
- like therianthropy, otherkin is a spiritual thing
- this may be people who believe they have the soul of mythical beings, though some may identify as therians at this point, while others may not
-otherkin as a general term is referring to those who do not identify as fully human. 
-If I've missed anything, please tell me so I can add it to the lists

I hope this clears up some of the confusion between the two.

Okay, sorry if this is a double post, but it's directed towards new members, who probably aren't going to see that old one. At least, that was my thinking.


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## Teal (Mar 9, 2012)

You should also include Otherkin. People always get the three confused an it annoys me.


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## Ikrit (Mar 9, 2012)

Translord said:


> Something that has come to my attention on this forum is that there seems to be slight confusion about this topic: Furries vs. Therians. There seems to be thought that they're the same thing or some people just don't know what therians are, so I thought I'd explain.



have i miss something?


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## Translord (Mar 9, 2012)

Depends on the threads you read. 

And, adding otherkin now :3


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## Osiris the jackal (Mar 9, 2012)

I posted a similar thread a little while ago about this Same topic and the fandoms history and got some pretty cool answers, you might want to add some fandom history as will but still great post!


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## TreacleFox (Mar 9, 2012)

Lifestylers are another one, although I think most people know what they are.


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## Osiris the jackal (Mar 9, 2012)

TreacleFox said:


> Lifestylers are another one, although I think most people know what they are.


 No please explain, the more info the better to clear up stereotypes.


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## Translord (Mar 9, 2012)

TreacleFox said:


> Lifestylers are another one, although I think most people know what they are.


I've never heard of lifestylers, wish to share some information to add to this list?


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## Osiris the jackal (Mar 9, 2012)

Non furry suiters 

Wear suits but are not part of the fandom
some are others aren't 
Use suiting as a hobbie


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## triage (Mar 9, 2012)

one are pathetic
the other is pathetic-er


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## Dreaming (Mar 9, 2012)

Translord said:


> Depends on the threads you read.
> 
> And, adding otherkin now :3


Which threads? I seem to have missed them, too.



Osiris the jackal said:


> No please explain, the more info the better to clear up stereotypes.



Wikifur is your friend.


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## CannonFodder (Mar 9, 2012)

Translord said:


> Something that has come to my attention on this forum is that there seems to be slight confusion about this topic: Furries vs. Otherkin. There seems to be thought that they're the same thing or some people just don't know what therians are, so I thought I'd explain.
> 
> Here are the main points of the different labels/identities:
> 
> ...


Den thread about therians #9897

We already know the differences.


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## Trpdwarf (Mar 10, 2012)

How curious. Actually you are the one who is a bit well...confused Translord.

In the current state of things quite a large number of people including self proclaimed therians and otherkin believe that Therian refers to people who believe they have animal souls, and otherkin have well...souls of what is commonly called a mythological creature. However originally Therianthropy made no such claim to having souls other than human, but instead to animal guides (also known as totem animals). It wasn't until Otherkin began to gain momentum that they spilled into Therianthropy and created this new thing were suddenly therians believe themselves to have souls of animals.

By claiming that Therians believe they have the souls of animals  you are confusing the entire thing itself. Quite a few old school Therians actually still hold to the older version before Otherkin took it's hold. Those people don't believe they have a soul of anything other than human and their beliefs came first. Just a history lesson.


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## Ozriel (Mar 10, 2012)

A long time ago, Therians used to be completely separate from otherkin and, Otherkin were known as people who have a spiritual connection and or having the soul of either a mythical or real life animal. Therians were often referred to as "Weres" due to "shift" concepts.
Therianthropy started on an alt.net group and turned into a philosophical and spiritual view of Werewolves and other were-creatures and grew in a similarity to how the furry fandom developed with fursonas. 
Around 2004-2006, the whole thing changed when Otherkin had come into the forums and began "sharing" their view on Therianthropy and Otherkin, the oldfags who were part of the old forum groups like werenation resented and left and either started their own groups on Livejournal, their own IRC, or left it altogether.


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## Tybis (Mar 10, 2012)

Pretty good, but this should be more directed towards newer members of the fandom, rather than the regulars of FAF.
Keep refining it!


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## Fay V (Mar 10, 2012)

furry lifestylers will still consider themselves furry...not all of them suit. not even a majority so far as I am aware. 

A lifestyler is a strange term because it's hard to pin down how to make it a lifestyle, however there are those that try to surround themselves with the fandom. This doesn't aways involve fursuits. Some lifestylers will even go around barefoot 24/7


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## Tybis (Mar 10, 2012)

Fay V said:


> A lifestyler is a strange term because it's hard to pin down how to make it a lifestyle, however there are those that try to surround themselves with the fandom. This doesn't aways involve fursuits. Some lifestylers will even go around barefoot 24/7


I always thought of lifestylers as people who want to act as "animal" as possible, but I think there's more to it than that. (Not exactly sure what.)


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## Ozriel (Mar 10, 2012)

Tybis said:


> I always thought of lifestylers as people who want to act as "animal" as possible, but I think there's more to it than that. (Not exactly sure what.)



No. Lifestylers eat, sleep, and breathe furry.

The only difference between a hobbyist furry and a lifestyler furry is the effort they put into being in the fandom....so to speak.
I do not know where you get where the "lifestylers are not a part of the fandom" thing came from. They are, but on a different level of furrydom.


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## Tybis (Mar 10, 2012)

Would it be wrong to make the conclusion/generalization that lifestylers are simply those that are over-obsessive with everything furry? (Not exactly sure if I expressed myself how I wanted to there.)


Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> I do not know where you get where the "lifestylers are not a part of the fandom" thing came from.


I didn't say that...


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## Goronian (Mar 10, 2012)

Huh, the more you know... 

I'm curious as to why otherkins are even there. I don't know about the States, but over here they have little to nothing to do with furries. I know a few of them and, what the hell, can be kinda considered one, even if I don't like the term, but I think only one of them dablles into anything furry-related. Well, he happens to associate with a dragon, so I guess that kills all the credibility this might have had...


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## Translord (Mar 10, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> A long time ago, Therians used to be completely separate from otherkin and, Otherkin were known as people who have a spiritual connection and or having the soul of either a mythical or real life animal. Therians were often referred to as "Weres" due to "shift" concepts.
> Therianthropy started on an alt.net group and turned into a philosophical and spiritual view of Werewolves and other were-creatures and grew in a similarity to how the furry fandom developed with fursonas.
> Around 2004-2006, the whole thing changed when Otherkin had come into the forums and began "sharing" their view on Therianthropy and Otherkin, the oldfags who were part of the old forum groups like werenation resented and left and either started their own groups on Livejournal, their own IRC, or left it altogether.



I'm basing this information on what I believe is a therian and what my definition is. As I did point out, there are several different definitions. The one I posted is the one that I've seen to be the most common and the one I use to identify myself. 
On the topic of otherkin, I am slightly not as knowledgeable. Again, as I am pretty sure I said in the original post, I'm sorry if I got some information wrong. 



Tybis said:


> Pretty good, but this should be more directed towards newer members of the fandom, rather than the regulars of FAF.
> Keep refining it!



I did have newer members in mind when posting this, as the regulars all seemed to know what it meant in the posts I'd seen.



Fay V said:


> furry lifestylers will still consider themselves furry...not all of them suit. not even a majority so far as I am aware.
> 
> A lifestyler is a strange term because it's hard to pin down how to make it a lifestyle, however there are those that try to surround themselves with the fandom. This doesn't aways involve fursuits. Some lifestylers will even go around barefoot 24/7



My definition of a lifestyler is simply what someone gave me. I can go change than.


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## Attaman (Mar 10, 2012)

A good way to imagine a Lifestyler is a Furry who takes the fandom, well, super-seriously. An insult on the fandom to them is like insulting another person's entire character. Most online media consumed by a Lifestyler will either be Furry or Furry-related, along with most online friends / associations (which rarely helps with the "Us versus Them" mentality that is often formed). Usually, for a Lifestyler, Furry is synonymous with either a philosophy, religion, sexual orientation, or some combination of the three: To them the fandom is much more than a hobby, which again leads back to the prior points (Insult of Fandom = Grave Offense, Us-vs-Them Mentality, etcetera). Misanthropy, while not necessarily a requirement for Lifestylers, is often present in one degree or another.


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## Tango (Mar 10, 2012)

Fay V said:


> Some lifestylers will even go around barefoot 24/7




Looks like I'm booby trapping the floor of my hotel room at AC/MFF with broken glass and thumbtacks.


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## Armaetus (Mar 10, 2012)

We are all human, regardless of what ridiculous belief(s) one may have of themselves.


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## Ozriel (Mar 10, 2012)

Tybis said:


> I didn't say that...



Not you, the OP. Maybe I should've put "OP" in reference.




Translord said:


> I'm basing this information on what I believe is a therian and what my definition is. As I did point out, there are several different definitions. The one I posted is the one that I've seen to be the most common and the one I use to identify myself.
> On the topic of otherkin, I am slightly not as knowledgeable. Again, as I am pretty sure I said in the original post, I'm sorry if I got some information wrong.




As an "Old-fag" therian myself, there are a lot of things the newbies ignore as per the subculture's Origins. Therian was never apart of the Otherkin subset until Otherkin came and in away, "Absorbed" the people who believed "I had a dream as a wolf, therefore I believe I have a wolf Soul and I was born in the wrong body".

I am still under the presumption of those who believe they are X born in the wrong body, or "species dysphoria" are Otherkin, regardless of how many newfags say they are not.

Set in my ways? Maybe, but I also tire of those that ignore the history of it. Several definitions of it makes them personal beliefs, not an automatic definition for the subculture itself, regardless if someone has special flake syndrome or not.



Goronian said:


> Huh, the more you know...
> 
> I'm curious as to why otherkins are even there. I don't know about the States, but over here they have little to nothing to do with furries. I know a few of them and, what the hell, can be kinda considered one, even if I don't like the term, but I think only one of them dablles into anything furry-related. Well, he happens to associate with a dragon, so I guess that kills all the credibility this might have had...



Otherkin in the states developed from an alt.net groups and html websites in 1996-1997. I revolved around elves in media before it branched out to other mythical creatures in media and in D&D lore. After awhile, it grew into the whole "Reincarnation" business of past lives and being "x" in a human body, as well as new-age magic concepts.

Fictokin actually evolved out of otherkin, and the community shuns fictokin because their "lifestyle" and "past lives" aren't real.


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## Artic1010 (Mar 10, 2012)

I never tought about it but now I think that I feel a bit like a therian cause I feel a strong spiritual bond with animals (mostly i prefer the animal company to the human one)


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## Goronian (Mar 10, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Otherkin in the states developed from an alt.net groups and html websites in 1996-1997. I revolved around elves in media before it branched out to other mythical creatures in media and in D&D lore. After awhile, it grew into the whole "Reincarnation" business of past lives and being "x" in a human body, as well as new-age magic concepts.
> Fictokin actually evolved out of otherkin, and the community shuns fictokin because their "lifestyle" and "past lives" aren't real.


Yeah, me and my husband fit the US otherkin bill pretty well. I still don't like the term, but I guess it can't be helped. But I still don't believe it's that related to furries. Yes, you can say, that lots of furries consider themselves otherkin, but lots of furries consider themselves gamers and you don't see this on the list, no?


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## Attaman (Mar 10, 2012)

Goronian said:


> Yeah, me and my husband fit the US otherkin bill pretty well. I still don't like the term, but I guess it can't be helped. But I still don't believe it's that related to furries. Yes, you can say, that lots of furries consider themselves otherkin, but lots of furries consider themselves gamers and you don't see this on the list, no?


Bit of a false-equivalency, though. There isn't much of a common ground between Furry and Gaming outside of both being hobbies one can participate in and the whole debate of whether they're anthro characters or "Furry" characters. In a perfect world, there wouldn't need to be this distinction between "Furry" and "Otherkin" (one a hobby, the other a religion / philosophy), but you must keep in mind that many Furries consider them one in the same (to the ire of both other Furries and Otherkin), or in the very least extremely closely related because both feature animals. 

Furthermore, Otherkin can typically find sympathetic souls in Furries. More often than not, an Otherkin can rely on fandom members to rush to their aid if someone mocks their beliefs, asks questions they aren't comfortable answering, etcetera. Add in that about 40% of the Furry Fandom does not consider itself fully human, and you've another "bonding" point between the two. No doubt misanthropy (something I'm surprised that's absent on Kil's Furry Survey) also plays a small part in the connection between the two.


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## Ozriel (Mar 10, 2012)

Goronian said:


> Yeah, me and my husband fit the US otherkin bill pretty well. I still don't like the term, but I guess it can't be helped. But I still don't believe it's that related to furries. Yes, you can say, that lots of furries consider themselves otherkin, but lots of furries consider themselves gamers and you don't see this on the list, no?



Otherkin =/= Furry. There are otherkin in the fandom who find some common ground with furries, but otherkin itself isn't a subset within it. Same goes for Therianthropy.



Attaman said:


> Furthermore, Otherkin can typically find sympathetic souls in Furries. More often than not, an Otherkin can rely on fandom members to rush to their aid if someone mocks their beliefs, asks questions they aren't comfortable answering, etcetera. Add in that about 40% of the Furry Fandom does not consider itself fully human, and you've another "bonding" point between the two. No doubt misanthropy (something I'm surprised that's absent on Kil's Furry Survey) also plays a small part in the connection between the two.



It does in a sense. Not all Otherkin or therians are misanthropic, but it also has to do with people's involvement outside of the internet...socially.


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## Goronian (Mar 10, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Otherkin =/= Furry. There are otherkin in the fandom, but otherkin itself isn't a subset within it.


Exactly what I was talking about. That's why it should probaby be removed from the list. Especially since otherwise it is pretty useful. Maybe even worth a sticky someday? Who knows, who cares.

However, if we remove "otherkin", they could still be mentioned under "therian". Something among the lines of "While some believe they have some kind of a spiritual or totemic connection to a certain animal, others simply believe, that they possess an animal soul." Sounds good?


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## Ozriel (Mar 10, 2012)

Goronian said:


> However, if we remove "otherkin", they could still be mentioned under "therian". Something among the lines of *"While some believe they have some kind of a spiritual or totemic connection to a certain animal, others simply believe, that they possess an animal soul." *Sounds good?



That's the gist of the explanation of it...or atleast what others think of it.


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## Translord (Mar 11, 2012)

Otherkin isn't in the list as a subset of the fandom or anything, I was trying to separate it from the fandom, however, if that's not clear, I can go change it so it is.


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## Ovidius (Mar 11, 2012)

It's like the same argument over Wicca; all Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccans due to the strict lineage traditions. Well, not argument as such, but the terms get cross-fired repeatedly between old and new generations. I'd consider both therianthropes and otherkin to be seperate from the furry fandom, but whether or not individuals dabble in it is entirely up to them - one of my ex's was an otherkin, but he still considered himself a furry _as well_, because he had a fursona. Generally the distinction seems to be that otherkin and therianthropy are more spiritual matters, whereas furry is in essence, a fandom - at least, that is how it appears to me, a person who's dabbled in both the otherkin and furry fandoms without majorly subscribing to both, who is now exploring the original definition of therian. All three are, in my mind, seperate spheres that may overlap at the individuals discretion.

The thread title does seem to be misleading; Furries *vs* Therians seems to imply a constant animosity instead of a discussion of definitions.


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## Conker (Mar 11, 2012)

Attaman said:


> Add in that about 40% of the Furry Fandom does not consider itself fully human, and you've another "bonding" point between the two.


Jesus fuck, what? Is that really true?


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## Carnie (Mar 11, 2012)

I would hoping that this would be some sort of nerd deathmatch thread.

Maybe some other time :/


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## Attaman (Mar 11, 2012)

Conker said:


> Jesus fuck, what? Is that really true?


39.65% of 2545 (or about 1009) do not consider themselves to be fully Human.


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## Ozriel (Mar 12, 2012)

Attaman said:


> 39.65% of 2545 (or about 1009) do not consider themselves to be fully Human.



It's the same question on the Anthrocon survey, except there are about 4-5 questions oh how human do you consider yourself and why.

In my opinion, people who think that they are less than or not human at all are usually the ones who have a mundane lifestyle. Ones that want to feel more like an individual than everyone else. 

You see most of that behavior among adolescents and emerging adults between 20-25. Granted, some do not grow out of it and keep that mindset sometimes pass their prime.

The problem that I have with otherkin is that the most that I've seen have a "holier-than-thou" attitude towards other people that do not have the same mindset.That attitude is also seen most in Dragon-kin. Granted, not all have that attitude.


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## Furison (Mar 12, 2012)

I find the whole idea of Therians and Otherkin interesting, along with the whole 'wrong body' thing. It seems odd to me that people feel disassociated with their physical appearance and feel like they need to change it. It's almost along the lines of transsexuals who feel that they are a woman (or a man) trapped in a man's (or woman's) body


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## Ovidius (Mar 12, 2012)

Wierdgoku said:


> I find the whole idea of Therians and Otherkin interesting, along with the whole 'wrong body' thing. It seems odd to me that people feel disassociated with their physical appearance and feel like they need to change it. It's almost along the lines of transsexuals who feel that they are a woman (or a man) trapped in a man's (or woman's) body



The only issue with that, is that GID (Gender Identity Disorder - someone correct me if I'm wrong) is diagnosable and a recognized medical condition. Identifying as an animal or mythical species is.... well, not. Transsexuals are still identifying as human after all, so it is not alarmingly 'out there'. The other comparison I've seen tends to be between otherkin and amputees experiencing phantom limb sensations.


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## Spatel (Mar 12, 2012)

Wierdgoku said:


> I find the whole idea of Therians and Otherkin interesting, along with the whole 'wrong body' thing. It seems odd to me that people feel disassociated with their physical appearance and feel like they need to change it. It's almost along the lines of transsexuals who feel that they are a woman (or a man) trapped in a man's (or woman's) body



Psychologists are still trying to work out what it is. Some fall into  the camp that it is a paraphilia, while others consider it a "Species  Identity Disorder", analogous to Gender Identity Disorder as you said. 

We don't fully understand how sexual development of the brain works but presumably the brain uses parents, siblings, and people in your age group to imprint itself. There is precedent from sexuality studies of animals that in a sufficiently isolated environment, with no members of the same species to template on, the brain turns to other things. Rats raised in isolation from other rats display mating behaviors towards humans more frequently than rats raised in groups, even when reintroduced. They couldn't develop a conception of 'beauty' for other rats because they had never seen rats growing up.

Combine a suburban, isolated lifestyle with strong introversion, distant parents, and a healthy diet of cartoons and video games with anthro characters and inevitably you get adults later on that are attracted to imaginary creatures instead of proper humans.


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## Ozriel (Mar 12, 2012)

Ovidius said:


> The only issue with that, is that GID (Gender Identity Disorder - someone correct me if I'm wrong) is diagnosable and a recognized medical condition. Identifying as an animal or mythical species is.... well, not. Transsexuals are still identifying as human after all, so it is not alarmingly 'out there'. The other comparison I've seen tends to be between otherkin and amputees experiencing phantom limb sensations.



For a person who feels as if they are the wrong species in the wrong body classifies as a dissociative disorder.
Not all otherkin fall into this category and it may be a symptom of eccentric-ism.


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## Goronian (Mar 13, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> In my opinion, people who think that they are less than or not human at all are usually the ones who have a mundane lifestyle. Ones that want to feel more like an individual than everyone else.
> 
> You see most of that behavior among adolescents and emerging adults between 20-25. Granted, some do not grow out of it and keep that mindset sometimes pass their prime.
> 
> The problem that I have with otherkin is that the most that I've seen have a "holier-than-thou" attitude towards other people that do not have the same mindset.That attitude is also seen most in Dragon-kin. Granted, not all have that attitude.


Funny how I, while kind of fitting the "otherkin" bill have anything, but a mundane life. It was that weirdness that made me question my... Okay, let's call it "humanity", not the other way around. But I don't think I ever acted condescending towards anyone, who considers himself normal, even if I don't believe there are any truly "normal" people.



Spatel said:


> Combine a suburban, isolated lifestyle with strong introversion, distant parents, and a healthy diet of cartoons and video games with anthro characters and inevitably you get adults later on that are attracted to imaginary creatures instead of proper humans.


This is kind of weak. Lots of people grew in the exact same situation and never developed a fondness for anything furry. And, frankly, for any furry franchise on the markert, there are around ten decidedly non-furry. You don't see teens developing flushed feelings for lantern-jawed heroes that much, do you?

And don't confuse gender and sexuality. Sexuality is simply a sexual attraction to something, while gender is much more complex and consists of various social and culltural factors as well, as self-image. For example, I have GID, but I'm also bisexual, which has little to nothing to do with my GID.


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## Foedus (Mar 13, 2012)

Despite the brief explanation, I'm still confused.  Though I always viewed myself as a lifestyler.  Many of my friends refer to me by my Furry Name "Sylver" or "Sylverclaws".  I didn't know Otherkin existed though...


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## BRN (Mar 13, 2012)

I think this thread is a pretty useful reference as a simplistic guide on the four, shall we say, "cultures of anthropomorphic identification" (?). Highlighting the differences between the groups is a neccessary thing, lest we blur the definition of all four to the irritation of the members, and the continued confusion of new parties.

Thus, would it be useful to sticky this? Although I contend the naming of the thread is poor.


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## Ovidius (Mar 13, 2012)

SIX, I wouldn't consider otherkin or therianthropy (old or new) to be anything to do with anthropomorphics though, personally.


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## BRN (Mar 13, 2012)

Ovidius said:


> SIX, I wouldn't consider otherkin or therianthropy (old or new) to be anything to do with anthropomorphics though, personally.


Very much true; I really did find it hard to conjure up a phrase that might connect the four groups. In this case I said 'anthropomorphic identification' rather than 'anthropomorphics'. 

If otherkin don't consider themselves "fully" human, and therians feel their human bodies connected to animal spirit, and furries represent themselves with animals, it sort-of maybe works... with a bit of license. :V

It's a really tenuous connection, though, and a more accurate phrase would be pretty welcomed.


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## Goronian (Mar 13, 2012)

SIX said:


> Very much true; I really did find it hard to conjure up a phrase that might connect the four groups. In this case I said 'anthropomorphic identification' rather than 'anthropomorphics'.
> 
> If otherkin don't consider themselves "fully" human, and therians feel their human bodies connected to animal spirit, and furries represent themselves with animals, it sort-of maybe works... with a bit of license. :V
> 
> It's a really tenuous connection, though, and a more accurate phrase would be pretty welcomed.


People with animal relations? No, that's even worse... 

I still don't think otherkin have anything to do with furries, aside from some of them being furries. Terians are more... Circumstationally related, seeing how the two communites were pretty heavily interwoven since the early nineties. It just makes sense for the two related groups to hang out together.


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## Translord (Mar 13, 2012)

SIX said:


> I think this thread is a pretty useful reference as a simplistic guide on the four, shall we say, "cultures of anthropomorphic identification" (?). Highlighting the differences between the groups is a neccessary thing, lest we blur the definition of all four to the irritation of the members, and the continued confusion of new parties.
> 
> Thus, would it be useful to sticky this? Although I contend the naming of the thread is poor.



I've wanted to change the thread title, but I'm not quite sure what to change it to. It's named as such because it began as a list showing the differences between furry and therian, however as time went on, people were recommending things to add and they got added. It's difficult to find a title that fully summarizes what this is about. Hmm :/


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## Translord (Mar 13, 2012)

Anyone have good thread name ideas?


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## Spatel (Mar 13, 2012)

Goronian said:


> This is kind of weak. Lots of people grew in the exact same situation and never developed a fondness for anything furry. And, frankly, for any furry franchise on the markert, there are around ten decidedly non-furry. You don't see teens developing flushed feelings for lantern-jawed heroes that much, do you?


Environmental factors increase the likelihood, but don't guarantee anything. And teens develop attractions to other fictional characters all the time. It's just not considered unusual if those characters are human, so nobody cares. 



> And don't confuse gender and sexuality. Sexuality is simply a sexual attraction to something, while gender is much more complex and consists of various social and culltural factors as well, as self-image. For example, I have GID, but I'm also bisexual, which has little to nothing to do with my GID.



I'm well aware of that, as I have both as well.


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## Attaman (Mar 13, 2012)

Ovidius said:


> The only issue with that, is that GID (Gender Identity Disorder - someone correct me if I'm wrong) is diagnosable and a recognized medical condition. Identifying as an animal or mythical species is.... well, not. Transsexuals are still identifying as human after all, so it is not alarmingly 'out there'. The other comparison I've seen tends to be between otherkin and amputees experiencing phantom limb sensations.


There's also the fact that there's been pretty much zero work on "Species Identity Disorder" that has not been either pushed by someone claiming to suffer from it (Ex: "Oh BTW I'm also a Dragon") or from talking to someone claiming to suffer from it. The closest scientific match, Clinical Lycanthropy, has been investigated... but unlike GID, CAIS, or the likes, Clinical Lycanthropy has been considered to be an undefinable example of _psychosis_. So, essentially, "SID" is a sign of mental issues and / or is pretty much reliant on "faith" to explain it.


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## Ovidius (Mar 13, 2012)

Attaman said:


> There's also the fact that there's been pretty much zero work on "Species Identity Disorder" that has not been either pushed by someone claiming to suffer from it (Ex: "Oh BTW I'm also a Dragon") or from talking to someone claiming to suffer from it. The closest scientific match, Clinical Lycanthropy, has been investigated... but unlike GID, CAIS, or the likes, Clinical Lycanthropy has been considered to be an undefinable example of _psychosis_. So, essentially, "SID" is a sign of mental issues and / or is pretty much reliant on "faith" to explain it.


Agreed, especially so in the case of those claiming to be a mythological species. At least those who adhere to the old definition of therianthropy rather than the new, have their beliefs grounded in Native and Shamanistic beliefs in animism which are a little more socially accepted.


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## Ozriel (Mar 13, 2012)

Goronian said:


> People with animal relations? No, that's even worse...
> 
> I still don't think otherkin have anything to do with furries, aside from some of them being furries. Terians are more... Circumstationally related, seeing how the two communites were pretty heavily interwoven since the early nineties. It just makes sense for the two related groups to hang out together.



The funny thing is that Therians really wanted nothing to do with Otherkin and vice versa, with some going "to each his own".

It didn't really get interwoven until 2006 due to the whole concept of souls.

Many Therians held on to the connection of Animal belief, to the whole totemic "Were" concept; You are not a non-human animal but you feel a connection to a certain type or species doesn't mean you ARE that species.


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## Kitutal (Mar 13, 2012)

Spatel said:


> Psychologists are still trying to work out what it is. Some fall into  the camp that it is a paraphilia, while others consider it a "Species  Identity Disorder", analogous to Gender Identity Disorder as you said.
> 
> We don't fully understand how sexual development of the brain works but presumably the brain uses parents, siblings, and people in your age group to imprint itself. There is precedent from sexuality studies of animals that in a sufficiently isolated environment, with no members of the same species to template on, the brain turns to other things. Rats raised in isolation from other rats display mating behaviors towards humans more frequently than rats raised in groups, even when reintroduced. They couldn't develop a conception of 'beauty' for other rats because they had never seen rats growing up.
> 
> Combine a suburban, isolated lifestyle with strong introversion, distant parents, and a healthy diet of cartoons and video games with anthro characters and inevitably you get adults later on that are attracted to imaginary creatures instead of proper humans.



This is an interesting point, we do have no idea how it works. In my other community, the one I'm not allowed to talk about here, there are plenty of people that report feeling... that way at a very young age, around 3 or 4 in many cases, myself starting around the age of 8 I was a very late developer, but yet at the same time quite a lot of people introduced to it as adults also quickly pick it up when they never did as children.
Growing up mostly on my own, without anyone else around, I was comfortably and contentedly asexual, I never wanted anything else, never really cared, but then interacting with other people more, I started likeing other men complimenting me, making subtle innuendoes, and soon I found myself finding men physically attractive, slightly more so every day, and then I started liking the idea of taking things further, bit by bit, it took a long time for it to develop inside me, and recently I feel like I'm still changing. Sometimes it seems like the more I think about something the more it changes how I feel, This works really well with motivation, with thinking how well or badly I do at something, with whether or not I enjoy things, I tend to like most things once I get started, with anything placebo related, I can convince myself they'll work even when I know otherwise and they do, maybe there's more as well, I don't know, it does seem like my mind is slightly maleable, like it can slowly and subtly change, but to what extent, I cannot guess.

Anyways, the point is, I didn't grow up with that sort of life, I never had any interest in cartoons as more than something amusing to watch on occasion, and even then not much and not for a while, but other aspects of being a furry seemed appealing to me, the idea of joining something where I could just enjoy myself, be a little silly, have fun and not care what anyone thought, where I could dress up as an animal and hang out with others doing the same, that was the sort of thing that brought me here, but once I arrived, I immediately started finding all the rest appealing, the pictures on the main site that would not have appealed to me had I just come upon them at random one day, now very much do, I am enjoying joining in pretty much every aspect of this, it's growing on me more and more now that I have started, I am changing, just as I did before when I first started thinking about seeing people as attractive but still having no interest in a relationship of any sort back then.


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## Lunar (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm all for making this a Stickied thread.


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## Cain (Mar 13, 2012)

Just realized, Therians and otherkin remind me of scientologists.

Generally just really really stupid.


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## Spatel (Mar 13, 2012)

Attaman said:


> There's also the fact that there's been pretty  much zero work on "Species Identity Disorder" that has not been either  pushed by someone claiming to suffer from it (Ex: "Oh BTW I'm also a  Dragon") or from talking to someone claiming to suffer from it. The  closest scientific match, Clinical Lycanthropy, has been investigated...  but unlike GID, CAIS, or the likes, Clinical Lycanthropy has been  considered to be an undefinable example of _psychosis_. So, essentially, "SID" is a sign of mental issues and / or is pretty much reliant on "faith" to explain it.



SID has been investigated independently of Clinical Lycanthropy,  just not by very many studies.  http://booksandjournals.brillonline...3376;jsessionid=8et59f28mfls3.x-brill-live-01 

I think considering one's self an animal soul trapped in a  human body could be delusional, maybe. Simply having a strong desire to become  non-human isn't though. "Not wanting to be human", having a certain discomfort with being human, is a normal  part of the human experience for a percentage of the population. If it  results in no personal harm or harm to others, I have issues with  pathologizing it the way a lot of people on FaF seem eager to.


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## Aetius (Mar 13, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I'm all for making this a Stickied thread.



I don't think this subject is worthy enough.


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## Ozriel (Mar 13, 2012)

Crusader Mike said:


> I don't think this subject is worthy enough.



I'd sooner sticky a thread on "Proper Yiff techniques" than this. :V


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## neweinstein (Mar 14, 2012)

hmm ... things are getting complicated ... just that I get it right ... there has been a change in the "definition" of therian/otherkin? I'll try to sum up as I understood it:

Furry ... OK, we all know ... people who like anthromomorphic animals and design their hobby around it

Furry lifestylers ... furrys who take the hobby into public and every day life

Therian (old definition) ... people who still see themself as human but with a close relationship to a certain species (totem animal) - spiritual connection would be the right term I think

Otherkin (old definition) ... people who belive they are at least part animal, e.g. have an animal soul in a human body and by that are not longer 100% human

Therian/Otherkin (new) ... today both seem to be "defined" like the old otherkin but can be devided by the kind of animal the feel to be ... therian = real world animal ... otherkin = mystical creature

Do I get it right so far? I know these "definitions" are very short and leaky like a sieve but everyone can get the details above.

I think I would see myself still just as a simple furry ... I still like my human self 
I could maybe align with the old therian as I feel a deep connection with a single species of animal... but the new one goes a bit to far. OK ... others may have that feelings and see such connections but I dont ... but lets let them do their stuff ...

I am human and I want to stay human!

EIN


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## Cain (Mar 14, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> I'd sooner sticky a thread on "Proper Yiff techniques" than this. :V


Having seen the den's locked posts today, I laughed.


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## Ozriel (Mar 14, 2012)

neweinstein said:


> hmm ... things are getting complicated ... just that I get it right ... there has been a change in the "definition" of therian/otherkin? I'll try to sum up as I understood it:
> 
> Furry ... OK, we all know ... people who like anthromomorphic animals and design their hobby around it
> 
> ...



Otherkin (used to) encompass not just worldly, but otherworldy mythological beings that you'd see in Dungeons and Dragons and in Religious mythology (Such as demons, Angels, etc).
Definitions change when there's no order to the chaos of the subculture and people cannot sort out personal beliefs vs. Group definition. You know why there is a creedo "you ask 9 Therians for a definition, you'll get 10 answers" is because people haven't sorted out their personal belief of it and state their own personal belief as fact, ignoring the history of the Subculture as a whole. 

Not saying that it isn't okay to have your own personal belief, having one is fine, but it isn't a fact. 

The furry fandom has a set defition with encompassing branches within due to each having a personal reason why they enjoy it and why they are in the fandom.

Me? I am an Othrodox oldfag. 
I love being human, I don't hate people, I don't hate life, and I like chocolate. :V



Jagged Edge said:


> Having seen the den's locked posts today, I laughed.




SIX should feel bad.


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## Spatel (Mar 14, 2012)

neweinstein said:


> Furry lifestylers ... furrys who take the hobby into public and every day life



it is neither a hobby, nor a public/every day life thing for lifestylers


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## ONEintheinfinite (Mar 14, 2012)

So there are normal people and then there are crazy ass people. 

SID? Yeah... sure? I'm a fucking robot.


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## neweinstein (Mar 15, 2012)

Spatel said:


> it is neither a hobby, nor a public/every day life thing for lifestylers



I called it a hobby because - from what I know - they do it by their own choice and not because of a spiritual belief. So where would you draw the line to devide between a "simple furry fan" and a "furry lifestyler"?

EIN


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## Goronian (Mar 15, 2012)

Isn't everyone who goes to cons and owns a suit could be kind of considered a lifestyler? Those suits cost a lot and travelling costs are steep, as well. More, than most people are willing to invest into their hobbies, no?

Frankly, I believe the amount of money one is willing to spend is what separates a casual hobbyist from a lifestyler. Say, if you not only own a gaming console and a few games, but go out of your way to collect every gaming system, import rare japanese and european games and have a separate shelf for various gaming memorabilia, than gaming kind of stops becoming a hobby and becomes and starts to affect your daily life, simply because you spend so much time and money on it. Or if you, say, like those radio-controlled cars. It's one thing, if you just own one and dick around with it in the parking lot, but a different story altogether, if you own one of those custom ones, that have internal combustion engines and cost more, than some people earn in a month. See? Time and money spent. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.


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## Tybis (Mar 15, 2012)

neweinstein said:


> I called it a hobby because - from what I know - they do it by their own choice and not because of a spiritual belief. So where would you draw the line to devide between a "simple furry fan" and a "furry lifestyler"?


Shadowfyre said earlier...


Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Lifestylers eat, sleep, and breathe furry.
> The only difference between a hobbyist furry and a lifestyler furry is the effort they put into being in the fandom....so to speak.


The lifestylers can be seen as fanatics, I guess. MUST FURRY EVERYTHING. I don't know...
But now, this has me thinking... would it be wrong to infer that there's lifestylers in other groups? Let's look at the group of gamers. There's people that play a little bit of their favorite fighter now and then, there's people that are almost always playing something whenever they have the free time. These types take care of their business, then indulge in their hobby if time, energy, etc. permits. 
Then there's people that have the type of obsession that affects decisions in their everyday life in a meaningful way. It's these people that prioritize their passion over everything else. At this point, the hobby has become something else... less of a "spare-time activity" and more of their "purpose", or their driving factor.

With that said, my personal opinion is: It depends on the level of obsession.
If you go to cons, if you don't go to cons, if you draw a little "furry"-type art, or if you spend most of your time browsing FA or other such sites... 
I consider those all "hobbyist".
If FURRY FURRY FURRY is all you do, or all you ever plan on doing, or are otherwise over-obsessed with it...
Then I consider that "lifestyler".


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## Attaman (Mar 15, 2012)

Goronian said:


> See? Time and money spent. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.


Lifestyle is, more than anything else, how someone lives. You can spend a lot of money on large amounts of video games, fursuits, or so-on, but if you have the disposable income that doesn't necessarily mean anything. For example: Over ten years I have put down a little over $3000 USD in Games Workshop products, and with current pricing am probably at $4000+ in products. However, should one talk to me, they will notice that I do not bring everything back to Warhammer, my bookshelf is not dedicated solely to Black Library novels, and the majority of games I own are completely unrelated to 40K or the sort.

A Lifestyler is less someone who contributes heavily to a fandom, and more someone who lives for it. The type of person who has spent more time improving their fursona than bothering with their own health / physical image. One who has a job solely to make enough money to live and remain a part of the community. The person who has spent more time as their Second Life character than acting in the real world. Furthermore, as Tybis mentions, everything MUST be Furry or Furry-affiliated. This is not to say someone who draws Cloud as a Wolf is an instant-Lifestyler, but if someone refuses to play _Skyrim_ until they have an all-Furry mod, won't play a certain MMO because they can't be an animal person, turns down a party because they don't know of any Furries who'll be in attendance, then they're treading on Lifestyler territory.


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## Ozriel (Mar 15, 2012)

Attaman said:


> A Lifestyler is less someone who contributes heavily to a fandom, and more someone who lives for it. The type of person who has spent more time improving their fursona than bothering with their own health / physical image. One who has a job solely to make enough money to live and remain a part of the community. The person who has spent more time as their Second Life character than acting in the real world. Furthermore, as Tybis mentions, everything MUST be Furry or Furry-affiliated. This is not to say someone who draws Cloud as a Wolf is an instant-Lifestyler, but if someone refuses to play _Skyrim_ until they have an all-Furry mod, won't play a certain MMO because they can't be an animal person, turns down a party because they don't know of any Furries who'll be in attendance, then they're treading on Lifestyler territory.




You also see it in WoW and other MMOs; there are furries who will only join furry related guilds/clans.



Goronian said:


> Isn't everyone who goes to cons and owns a suit could be kind of considered a lifestyler? Those suits cost a lot and travelling costs are steep, as well. More, than most people are willing to invest into their hobbies, no?
> 
> Frankly, I believe the amount of money one is willing to spend is what separates a casual hobbyist from a lifestyler. Say, if you not only own a gaming console and a few games, but go out of your way to collect every gaming system, import rare japanese and european games and have a separate shelf for various gaming memorabilia, than gaming kind of stops becoming a hobby and becomes and starts to affect your daily life, simply because you spend so much time and money on it. Or if you, say, like those radio-controlled cars. It's one thing, if you just own one and dick around with it in the parking lot, but a different story altogether, if you own one of those custom ones, that have internal combustion engines and cost more, than some people earn in a month. See? Time and money spent. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.




In any hobby or Lifestyle, you will spend money so the "Lifestylers will dump money into "X" is moot. Lifestyler furries try to incoperate the furry fandom into their lives by the way they dress, what they talk about, and sometimes how they decorate. 

A person whose hobby in anime, Sci-fi, or Furry can go to a convention, buy a poster, DvD, or a figurine of their favorite TV or Video game characters. It doesn't mean they are a lifestyler.


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## Translord (Mar 15, 2012)

I guess many of these labels all have several different meanings depending on who you're asking.


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## Goronian (Mar 15, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> In any hobby or Lifestyle, you will spend money so the "Lifestylers will dump money into "X" is moot. Lifestyler furries try to incoperate the furry fandom into their lives by the way they dress, what they talk about, and sometimes how they decorate.
> 
> A person whose hobby in anime, Sci-fi, or Furry can go to a convention, buy a poster, DvD, or a figurine of their favorite TV or Video game characters. It doesn't mean they are a lifestyler.


I think you've read me wrong. I meant people who take it to an extreme - dump more money and invest more time, than an average person would. Time is also a factor. Say, gaming could be considered part (I want to stress it) of my lifestyle, since I collect lots of old consoles and hard to find games, as well as spend a lot of time with videogames and many of my friends happen to be gamers and people I've met through gaming. But that doesn't mean it's the only thing I do.

I think both you and Attaman confuse lifestyle with obsession. If a person owns a fursuit, goes to cons and buys furry stuff, not just once, but for a prolonged amount of time, then it's already part of his lifestyle, since even most average furries have much less investment in this stuff. The person who lives, breathes and shits furry is not a lifestyler, he's a mental case.


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## Ozriel (Mar 15, 2012)

Goronian said:


> I think you've read me wrong. I meant people who take it to an extreme - dump more money and invest more time, than an average person would. Time is also a factor. Say, gaming could be considered part (I want to stress it) of my lifestyle, since I collect lots of old consoles and hard to find games, as well as spend a lot of time with videogames and many of my friends happen to be gamers and people I've met through gaming. But that doesn't mean it's the only thing I do.



Then it sounds like a hobby. 



> I think both you and Attaman confuse lifestyle with obsession. If a person owns a fursuit, goes to cons and buys furry stuff, not just once, but for a prolonged amount of time, then it's already part of his lifestyle, since even most average furries have much less investment in this stuff. The person who lives, breathes and shits furry is not a lifestyler, he's a mental case.



Goths who dress in the style, decorate their house in that style and listen to the music are living the Gothic Lifestyle. They are not headcases. If they act like Faggy Vampire douches, then they are nutcases. 
Furries who dress like a furry, and revolve their online and offline lives around furrry, they are Lifestylers. If a furry continuously barks in public, licks him/herself like a cat or dog, and makes an attempt to dry hump and.or sniff crotches, then they are a nutcase.

Lifestyles=/= Nutcase.
Just because a person revolves their lifestyle around a subculture doesn't mean they are crazy.


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## Spatel (Mar 15, 2012)

I disagree with the prevailing sentiment of some of the recent posts.

Homosexuality is considered an alternative lifestyle, but you don't have to spend every waking thought "gaying things up" if you're gay, for it to be considered a lifestyle. It hardly factors into your life at all, except for relationships. All an alternative lifestyle means is having a type of living arrangement that a large portion of society would consider taboo, in this case dating a member of the same sex. Gays, Bisexuals, and so forth are sexual minorities. It doesn't have to be based on sexual orientation. It can be based on fetishes (BDSM), gender identity (Trans), or different relationship structures (polyamory). As long as it's considered taboo, if you do it you a have an alternative lifestyle.

Furry lifestylers fall under the fetish category. They are *furry fetishists* that act on their attraction to anthropomorphic characters, and use the fandom as a vehicle for dating other lifestylers. The general public perceives the whole fandom to be like this, when it's really a sub-community within the furry community. But they wouldn't have that perception if it didn't exist, and it certainly does.

As a lifestyler, I don't consider furry a "hobby" for myself. I'm not heavily invested in the hobby aspects of the fandom, though I appreciate the creative community that exists here. I don't spend much time or money on furry stuff. 5 people outside the fandom know I'm a furry, and I never talk to them about it. I'd rather not be obnoxious or make a big deal about it; it's just one aspect of my life, and I prefer to keep to myself. I simply consider 'furry' a programmed quirk of my existence that I couldn't change if I tried, and that I prefer dating other furry lifestylers, although I can and have dated non-furs. I consider myself a member of a 'taboo' sexual minority in that regard, and I find suggestions that I could leave any time, or that I'm simply being an attention whore or taking a hobby too far rather ridiculous. It is like suggesting that homosexuals are really just yaoi fans that take their fanhood "one step too far" to look like special little snowflakes. 

Being a lifestyler has nothing to do with making everything about furries, or being obnoxious and shoving your furfaggotry in other people's faces, or whining about 'fursecusion', which I have never done. That's called "being an asshat", and those kinds of characters exist in this as well as in other communities.


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## Goronian (Mar 15, 2012)

I have to both agree and disagree with Spatel. While I like his perception of the fandom, I'm kind of on the fence about the whole lifestyle thing. Is there even such a thing, as "gay lifestyle" and if there is, how is it different from just being gay? Say, I have GID, but if you met me on the street or talked to me casually, you wouldn't even know it. It's still a big part of my daily life and affects day-to-day things, but only me, my husband and a few others know to what extent. Can this be called "lifestyle" at all, or is this just... This?


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## Ozriel (Mar 15, 2012)

Spatel said:


> Furry lifestylers fall under the fetish category. They are *furry fetishists* that act on their attraction to anthropomorphic characters, and use the fandom as a vehicle for dating other lifestylers. The general public perceives the whole fandom to be like this, when it's really a sub-community within the furry community. But they wouldn't have that perception if it didn't exist, and it certainly does.



You are comparing two different vegetables. Not all lifestyle furries are into the fetish aspect, and not all Fetishists are lifestylers. 
"Lifestyle" just means that you surround yourself with everything of that subcultire in Social/Youth Subcultures, like Goth for instance.
There will be furries that only date furries, watch cartoons with only anthro animals in it, and join guilds/clans that the majority are furries. Lifestylers feel comfortable around their own due to having the same common ground with others. Same goes for Fetishists within the comminity.




> Being a lifestyler has nothing to do with making everything about furries, or being obnoxious and shoving your furfaggotry in other people's faces, or whining about 'fursecusion', which I have never done. That's called "being an asshat", and those kinds of characters exist in this as well as in other communities.



If you've gone to a furry con, you do get Lifestyle furries who are under the presumption of "If you are not eating, sleeping, and breathing furry then you are not a true furry".
Just because you do not "Cry fursecution" doesn't mean that there are none that do.


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## Spatel (Mar 15, 2012)

Goronian said:


> I have to both agree and disagree with Spatel. While I like his perception of the fandom, I'm kind of on the fence about the whole lifestyle thing. Is there even such a thing, as "gay lifestyle" and if there is, how is it different from just being gay?


It is simply being openly gay. That is the "gay lifestyle". An alternative lifestyle is merely a taboo. The key here is that it's not a big deal to the person that has it, it's just a big deal to other people (morons) that have nothing better to do than proselytize about shit they know nothing about.



> Say, I have GID, but if you met me on the street or talked to me casually, you wouldn't even know it. It's still a big part of my daily life and affects day-to-day things, but only me, my husband and a few others know to what extent. Can this be called "lifestyle" at all, or is this just... This?


It's not a lifestyle in your case because you're keeping it a secret. If you crossdressed or assumed the identity of another gender, or openly called yourself trans or genderqueer, then it would be a lifestyle for you. I'm in the same position basically. I'm living with my transphobic mother, and until I move out I'm stuck with keeping the GID in the back of my mind.



			
				Zeke Shadowfyre said:
			
		

> You are comparing two different vegetables. Not all lifestyle furries  are into the fetish aspect, and not all Fetishists are lifestylers.
> "Lifestyle" just means that you surround yourself with everything of  that subcultire in Social/Youth Subcultures, like Goth for instance.
> There will be furries that only date furries, watch cartoons with only  anthro animals in it, and join guilds/clans that the majority are  furries. Lifestylers feel comfortable around their own due to having the  same common ground with others. Same goes for Fetishists within the  comminity.



I agree that not all fetishists are lifestylers (or even most), but an alternative lifestyle has to be taboo. Without the sexual aspect how could it be a lifestyle? There's nothing inherently taboo about liking anthro characters. While it is true that going to furry conventions or fursuiting is seen by many outsiders as taboo, it's always because of the association others make with the sexual aspect of the fandom. Furrys know those associations to be false. Furry can be a huge part of someone's life without being a lifestyle, and I think if there are people that consider themselves lifestylers but not fetishists, they are labeling themselves incorrectly on one of those terms.* This isn't a hardline view on my part though. If you have an example you think contradicts this, or you think you have a better definition of a lifestyler, I'm certainly all ears.

*Therians/Otherkin are an exception to this. Taboo beliefs, such as spiritual beliefs, or political beliefs that cause one to act very differently from societal norms (such as being a hippy and living in a commune) can constitute an alternative lifestyle. Being an atheist is an alternative lifestyle in some places. I think I mentioned that in another thread.


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## ErikutoSan (Mar 15, 2012)

This thread has some really nice info here... Kinda helps me understand the stereotype about it that i recently found out about ;-;


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## Goronian (Mar 16, 2012)

Spatel said:


> It is simply being openly gay. That is the "gay lifestyle". An alternative lifestyle is merely a taboo. The key here is that it's not a big deal to the person that has it, it's just a big deal to other people (morons) that have nothing better to do than proselytize about shit they know nothing about.
> 
> It's not a lifestyle in your case because you're keeping it a secret. If you crossdressed or assumed the identity of another gender, or openly called yourself trans or genderqueer, then it would be a lifestyle for you. I'm in the same position basically. I'm living with my transphobic mother, and until I move out I'm stuck with keeping the GID in the back of my mind.


So when our gender roles in day-to-day life are exchanged (like me doing most of the cooking and cleaning, while he brings in more money) it's not a lifestyle, but when my husband wears leather and shades and hangs chains and stuff on his jacket, that's a lifestyle? I'm just trying to understand. We don't have a term close to "lifestyle" here, so it's kind of confusing.


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## Translord (Mar 16, 2012)

ErikutoSan said:


> This thread has some really nice info here... Kinda helps me understand the stereotype about it that i recently found out about ;-;



Glad this thread helped someone :3


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## Cocobanana (Mar 16, 2012)

Being a non-religious person, I don't agree with anything besides what I see or what others have seen and documented. That being said, I am a human being because that's what I look, feel, smell, taste, sound like. Sometimes it can be upsetting seeing other human beings claiming they aren't that, but it's not my business and I can just avoid those types.


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## Translord (Mar 16, 2012)

Cocobanana said:


> Being a non-religious person, I don't agree with anything besides what I see or what others have seen and documented. That being said, I am a human being because that's what I look, feel, smell, taste, sound like. Sometimes it can be upsetting seeing other human beings claiming they aren't that, but it's not my business and I can just avoid those types.



I can't help but thank you for actually telling us your opinion on this in a respectful way. I've seen so many people just flat out say something like "People can't be animals." And "You're insane." So can I just say thanks for being respectful in sharing your opinion and putting it in a way that won't offend people. Not something I see too much.


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## Armaetus (Mar 16, 2012)

Eh, most therians and otherkin are just kooky and/or mentally deranged, thus I avoid them. However, I have a friend or two who is furry/otherkin(I think) and they are cool.


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## neweinstein (Mar 16, 2012)

Cocobanana said:


> Being a non-religious person, I don't agree with anything besides what I see or what others have seen and documented. That being said, I am a human being because that's what I look, feel, smell, taste, sound like. Sometimes it can be upsetting seeing other human beings claiming they aren't that, but it's not my business and I can just avoid those types.





Translord said:


> I can't help but thank you for actually telling us your opinion on this in a respectful way. I've seen so many people just flat out say something like "People can't be animals." And "You're insane." So can I just say thanks for being respectful in sharing your opinion and putting it in a way that won't offend people. Not something I see too much.



For me its like this: I let everyone believe what they want ... as long as no one tries to convince me to follow their believes (or if their actions hurt anyone) ... may it different political, religious, sexual or other ideas ... they can believe in what ever they want I dont have to understand that .. if it makes them happy its fine as long as they also accept me the way I am.

I just get angry if someone wants to press his opinions/believes onto me ... I can not stand that ...

EIN


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## BRN (Mar 16, 2012)

I love chatting with therians about therianthropy. The quirks and eccentrics of humankind are always great fun to talk with. It makes me feel that the small world of 'social expectation' has its anomalies, its outliers, small little beautiful occurences that make life so undeterministic. \:3/


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## Furison (Mar 17, 2012)

It seems to have been a little confusion between lifestyle and sexuality/fettish. I feel that lifestyle furries surround themselves in the furry subculture and is part of their everyday life but is not about sexual attraction. The sexuality side of it is a sexual attraction is felt by the person/furry over the fandom, but may not surround themselves with the subculture. Having said that there are corss-overs in what I've just said where someone both surrounds themselves in the subculture and feels the sexual attraction.




SIX said:


> I love chatting with therians about therianthropy. The quirks and eccentrics of humankind are always great fun to talk with. It makes me feel that the small world of 'social expectation' has its anomalies, its outliers, small little beautiful occurences that make life so undeterministic. \:3/


Thats true, its what makes life more interesting


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## Frroat (Mar 17, 2012)

I have a funny story about otherkin and it involves me!

Long ago... six years ago actually, I became very obsessed with dragons suddenly, it was quite random if I say so myself. Dragons were so cool! I was finding artwork of dragons, reading things about dragons, anything and everything about dragons! Of course, I was a socially awkward teenager at the time, kinda dumb too, so I believed everything I read about them... on the Internet. So, eventually it got to the point where I was respecting dragons literally as deities, and spirits and all sorts of very spiritual things. After reading some stuff on... crystalinks.com I was convinced that I had a spirit guide that was a dragon. Wonderful! I believed that he (I just _knew_ that it was a he) was protecting me, or teaching me something. Later, I discovered that there were entire online forums of people who all shared their love of dragons! One forum in particular, which was like my home away from home, is where I first heard the term 'otherkin' I was seriously amazed when I heard about this... there are people who have the souls of dragons?! (Dragonborn?) Many of them truly believed that, and many of them questioned me if I was too. I wasn't sure... could I really be a dragon? I wondered. I wasted a great deal of my teenage life just questioning myself and figuring it out. I heard so many tales from otherkin online about them having flashbacks of past lives, visions of being a dragon, very vivid dreams, and even physically feeling their dragon-like appendages (wings, tail). Now, I didn't have ANY of those symptoms, other than I was very moved by dragons. At this point I literally became depressed because I felt that I wasn't a dragon, like the others I read from. Horrible. I contacted this user on the forum who claimed to be psychic, (this is the weirdest part) I swear to you, I did not tell him ANYTHING about this, but he told me that he remotely contacted my spirit guide who was a dragon, and it told him about something really stupid I did that morning (I accidentally trashed the family pool) and he told me that my soul was an orange dragon who's "true name" was 'Arakubaru Inaki'. The thing about the pool I didn't tell that guy about! Makes me wonder now... (I doubt he's psychic, he must have had two accounts on the forum and I must have told him what I did on one of them and just used the same info on another, he did get banned after all) ANYWAY... so I believed him and my life was great after that! _I was a dragon!_ I thought, and I knew for sure that I had a dragon as a spirit guide, and I felt so happy. After that I was pretty much all good, and everything went back to normal, I believed that I was a dragon, it was no longer something special that I pleaded to have, and that belief went on for some time... as I got older though, I became more skeptical about that as well as other supernatural things. I stopped believing that dragons existed and I probably did not have the soul of a dragon either.

I think that my life became much better when I believed that I was a dragon/otherkin because I was all socially awkward at the time and the idea of being a dragon made me feel strong and accepted. It was like a comfort thing. Long after I abandoned the whole otherkin thing, I still respected dragons as a conceptâ€”I felt like I should do what I could to fit the dragon philosophy, for example, I felt that dragons represented ambition, so I would work on being more ambitious in my goals, when I achieved everything that a dragon meant to me, then I was (conceptually) a dragon. It's a philosophy I went by for a while, I still kind of follow it today only I'm not as obsessive about it all. But boy I still think dragons are cool!

I'm generally accepting of the otherkin/therian beliefs. After all I _did_ hang around online forums for otherkin for years, I know who's really serious and using their beliefs beneficially, and I know the little punks who just want to feel special (like I was).

I never would have found the furry fandom if it wasn't for otherkin either. I used to have a dragon character too.


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## Trpdwarf (Mar 18, 2012)

Frroat said:


> I have a funny story about otherkin and it involves me!
> 
> Long ago... six years ago actually, I became very obsessed with dragons suddenly, it was quite random if I say so myself. Dragons were so cool! I was finding artwork of dragons, reading things about dragons, anything and everything about dragons! Of course, I was a socially awkward teenager at the time, kinda dumb too, so I believed everything I read about them... on the Internet. So, eventually it got to the point where I was respecting dragons literally as deities, and spirits and all sorts of very spiritual things. After reading some stuff on... crystalinks.com I was convinced that I had a spirit guide that was a dragon. Wonderful! I believed that he (I just _knew_ that it was a he) was protecting me, or teaching me something. Later, I discovered that there were entire online forums of people who all shared their love of dragons! One forum in particular, which was like my home away from home, is where I first heard the term 'otherkin' I was seriously amazed when I heard about this... there are people who have the souls of dragons?! (Dragonborn?) Many of them truly believed that, and many of them questioned me if I was too. I wasn't sure... could I really be a dragon? I wondered. I wasted a great deal of my teenage life just questioning myself and figuring it out. I heard so many tales from otherkin online about them having flashbacks of past lives, visions of being a dragon, very vivid dreams, and even physically feeling their dragon-like appendages (wings, tail). Now, I didn't have ANY of those symptoms, other than I was very moved by dragons. At this point I literally became depressed because I felt that I wasn't a dragon, like the others I read from. Horrible. I contacted this user on the forum who claimed to be psychic, (this is the weirdest part) I swear to you, I did not tell him ANYTHING about this, but he told me that he remotely contacted my spirit guide who was a dragon, and it told him about something really stupid I did that morning (I accidentally trashed the family pool) and he told me that my soul was an orange dragon who's "true name" was 'Arakubaru Inaki'. The thing about the pool I didn't tell that guy about! Makes me wonder now... (I doubt he's psychic, he must have had two accounts on the forum and I must have told him what I did on one of them and just used the same info on another, he did get banned after all) ANYWAY... so I believed him and my life was great after that! _I was a dragon!_ I thought, and I knew for sure that I had a dragon as a spirit guide, and I felt so happy. After that I was pretty much all good, and everything went back to normal, I believed that I was a dragon, it was no longer something special that I pleaded to have, and that belief went on for some time... as I got older though, I became more skeptical about that as well as other supernatural things. I stopped believing that dragons existed and I probably did not have the soul of a dragon either.
> 
> ...



Ah the conversion process. I've run into people who had run ins with such communities similar to what you speak of. Sometimes people turn out okay. There is also a really dark side to it that people ought to watch out for. There are groups that will latch onto people who have minor unhappiness and increase their unhappiness tenfold by convincing them they are something other than human. They build up comfy little cults victimizing people to make themselves feel better as they become self described graymuzzles with followings. This is not to say all groups are like this but having run into enough individuals who ruin others completely I am wary of Otherkin. Plus a lot of them just don't take it seriously.


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## Kosdu (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, thanks for the thread. Useful.

Seeing as it has come to my attention I might have an animal guide..... guess I'm therian.



Did some crazy stuff around puberty, I guess I took it too far back then. Just a phase.
I know I'm human. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice not to be.

For everyone who thinks that therians are just crazy, are you insinuiating that a good deal of native american tribes were/are crazy?
Just look at all the non-therian religions/belief systems. Crazy stuff, man.
Hell, look at policticians....


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## JArt. (Mar 27, 2012)

I think i might be a life-styler, but hey im ok with that. Thanks for the useful thread.
I may not be a Therian but i do feel a deep semi-spiritual connection to my animal.


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## Ozriel (Mar 27, 2012)

Kosdu said:


> For everyone who thinks that therians are just crazy, are you insinuiating that a good deal of native american tribes were/are crazy?
> Just look at all the non-therian religions/belief systems. Crazy stuff, man.
> Hell, look at policticians....



The Therian belief system was birthed from crazed werewolf fans...then grew into "white Guilt" with a touch of teenage angst.
Other than that, Therianthropy (today) is seen as a reject thrown off of the fluff truck, along with the 9/11 conspiracy theories. :V

Are all Therians crazy? no.
But there are those that take it too far to the point of making it seem like everyone has taken LSD while cheesing on cat piss.


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## JArt. (Mar 27, 2012)

I like to believe that Romulus was the first furry.


> know I'm human. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice not to be.


i'm with ya there.


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## Ozriel (Mar 27, 2012)

JArt. said:


> ilike to believe that Romuluswas the first furry.



Umm...what?


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## Kosdu (Mar 27, 2012)

I was told a certain sub-culture in egypt, the jackals, were the first furrys.







Eh, being a therian doesn't seem that crazy to me. Just a connection to a totem animal.


(Romulus, raised by wolves. Correct?)


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## JArt. (Mar 27, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Umm...what?


Romulus (sorry stupid spacebar) was the only survivor of Troy, he is the mythological founder of Rome believed to be raised by wolves.
ok so now i realized how stupid my comment was.


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## Bipolar Bear (Mar 27, 2012)

Therians, in my opinion, are no different from Furries in relation to Fandoms. They both like a particular species, and built a taboo and thriving community out of it.


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## Ozriel (Mar 27, 2012)

JArt. said:


> Romulus (sorry stupid spacebar) was the only survivor of Troy, he is the mythological founder of Rome believed to be raised by wolves.
> ok so now i realized how stupid my comment was.



Not to go off topic but...Romulus and his twin brother were descendants of Trojan Prince Aeneas, not Trojans themselves. :V
There's two versions of the story; One being that a goddess saw the abandoned twins and transformed into a wolf, and nursed them because she saw what they would become. Another being that it was just a regular wolf that came across them and nursed them.

And about the whole Mythology "First furry" crap...what? Srsly...


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## Aetius (Mar 27, 2012)

JArt. said:


> I like to believe that Romulus was the first furry.



Not sure if troll, or stupid.


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## JArt. (Mar 27, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Not to go off topic but...Romulus and his twin brother were descendants of Trojan Prince Aeneas, not Trojans themselves. :V
> There's two versions of the story; One being that a goddess saw the abandoned twins and transformed into a wolf, and nursed them because she saw what they would become. Another being that it was just a regular wolf that came across them and nursed them.
> 
> And about the whole Mythology "First furry" crap...what? Srsly...



i know my mistake, it was just an odd thing that popped into my head.


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## Ozriel (Mar 27, 2012)

JArt. said:


> i know my mistake, it was just an odd thing that popped into my head.



Actually there are more versions of the founders of Rome story...Some which involved Hercules knocking up their mother...etc. :V

And you should feel bad. :V


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## Bipolar Bear (Mar 27, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Actually there are more versions of the founders of Rome story...Some which involved Hercules knocking up their mother...etc. :V
> 
> And you should feel bad. :V



Actually, I feel more bad for the Mother than Romulus.


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## lupinealchemist (Mar 27, 2012)

There are so many definitions of therianthropy that it gets confusing. I just stick to the spiritual connection/totem belief, mental shapeshifting version.


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## Ozriel (Mar 27, 2012)

lupinealchemist said:


> There are so many definitions of therianthropy that it gets confusing. I just stick to the spiritual connection/totem belief, mental shapeshifting version.



Since no one established or stood up and an "order" to prevent cluster-fucking it created a cluster fuck of fluff. You could consider the first form the "Catholic version" (minus the altar boy fucking and the Catholic shit) while the other "Definitions" are just a bunch of protestant groups playing chicken in the middle of Rush hour traffic.


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## BRN (Mar 28, 2012)

Just got told on Facebook that "furry" is all about connecting deeply with a spirit animal. Told him he was a therian and to research therianthropy. Got told that he had been a "furry" since '99 and to shut up.

Facebook furries people are the best. :3


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## Ozriel (Mar 28, 2012)

SIX said:


> Facebook furries people are the best. :3



For Drama, yes.
Other than that, most facebook furries are retards. :V


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