# Your opinion on Therians/Otherkin



## Parabellum3 (Nov 27, 2019)

_Disclaimer: This is in no way meant to antagonize or criticize Therians/Otherkins or people who identify themselves anything but a human being. 
_
So I had a very interesting encounter with a supposed therian recently. I met this "person" on Amino about a week ago. I initially found them to be an interesting character for a reason I'm not yet sure, they appeared to have a good personality and were quite intelligent. In fact they are an author who wrote plenty furry books. 

So we started chatting and everything went well. However there were some peculiarities I started to notice. For once, their behavior seemed very dominant, quite animal like actually and it forced me to be somewhat submissive. Second, they never once referred themself as a person, always as an animal. I thought they were just roleplaying or something.

The weirdest part of all this is that everyday they would change their name, profile picture, and bio to another species and then claim that they "were always this species ever since they were born." That just made me completely confused. 

So one day when I wanted to no more about their "human" selves, I tried to convince them to go into reality for a second and stop roleplaying. But then, they got SO OFFENDED that I called them a human, they forced me to leave or they will report me. That's when it hit me that they were being serious all along, mind you that nowhere in their profile state that they were a therian/otherkin/God knows what. 

It did quite shock me that I was around such a sick person, but it also actually hurt me a bit because we were getting along well and they cared more about their identity than people.

The worst thing in my opinion is that they are pregnant, so just imagine what this can mean for their kid? Will they have to live under a false identity of an animal? How would they even grow up or survive properly then?

I also was curious and asked my father, who is a psychiatrist, to see exactly what their problem or condition is. He actually got quite disturbed by this and couldn't give me an exact answer. He then asked me, "Where the hell do you meet these people?" And my reply was "The internet."

With all that being said, what do you guys think about this and therians?


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## Telnac (Nov 27, 2019)

If that's how they want to identify, whatever. It's not my thing but hey, live and let live. 

Getting upset at you for not playing along when you're not trying to antagonize them is where this behavior crosses the line and yeah, that could be a mental health issue. And yes, forcing their kid to identify as not human would qualify as abuse.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Nov 27, 2019)

The identity virus continues to mutate into increasingly ridiculous strains, as I predicted it would almost ten years ago. It's just a pity it escaped its Tumblr quarantine.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Nov 27, 2019)

Parabellum3 said:


> The weirdest part of all this is that everyday they would change their name, profile picture, and bio to another species and then claim that they "were always this species ever since they were born." That just made me completely confused.



I can learn to adapt to someone else's worldview and attitude, but this right here seems like a major red flag - on top of what Telnac's already said.  (Even if throwing the phrase "mental health issue" around just feels crude to me - regardless of truth and regardless of whether the behavior that led to that claim actually disturbs a psychiatrist or not.)


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## Parabellum3 (Nov 27, 2019)

Telnac said:


> If that's how they want to identify, whatever. It's not my thing but hey, live and let live.
> 
> Getting upset at you for not playing along when you're not trying to antagonize them is where this behavior crosses the line and yeah, that could be a mental health issue. And yes, forcing their kid to identify as not human would qualify as abuse.





Kit H. Ruppell said:


> The identity virus continues to mutate into increasingly ridiculous strains, as I predicted it would almost ten years ago. It's just a pity it escaped its Tumblr quarantine.





FrostyTheDragon said:


> I can learn to adapt to someone else's worldview and attitude, but this right here seems like a major red flag - on top of what Telnac's already said.  (Even if throwing the phrase "mental health issue" around just feels crude to me - regardless of truth and regardless of whether the behavior that led to that claim actually disturbs a psychiatrist or not.)


Yeah. I mean I bet not all therians are like that. I just must’ve encountered an extreme case.


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## Telnac (Nov 27, 2019)

Parabellum3 said:


> Yeah. I mean I bet not all therians are like that. I just must’ve encountered an extreme case.


Yeah the only Otherkin I've known have all essentially said that they're Species X trapped in a human body. They didn't freak out when someone identified them as human b/c they know that regardless of how they see themselves, others just see a human.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 27, 2019)

I think they're a little delusional but if it makes them happy and they're not hurting anyone then, well, whatever. You do you man.


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## reptile logic (Nov 27, 2019)

I've heard or read the terms before; didn't bother to research them until now. Thanks, for helping me to expand my knowledge base a little more.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 27, 2019)

I sometimes join chat rooms based around odd things out of morbid curiosity- like a child pressing their face up against the side of an aquarium. 

I watched an otherkin server for a while and to be honest I was pretty bored by how normal they were!


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## Mambi (Nov 27, 2019)

<blushes and hides his face with his tail> Ummm...some of us just feel our animal selves a little stronger than others <ahem>, but that said, the original story and how they got so offended was WAY uncalled for in my opinion! Their response was very rude, and on top of that, they didn't tell you so how were you supposed to know? Odd for them to assume with no info, and since it switched...yeah they represent only themselves <eye roll>. As for their kid...they'll hopefully have the choice!


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## Parabellum3 (Nov 27, 2019)

Mambi said:


> <blushes and hides his face with his tail> Ummm...some of us just feel our animal selves a little stronger than others <ahem>, but that said, the original story and how they got so offended was WAY uncalled for in my opinion! Their response was very rude, and on top of that, they didn't tell you so how were you supposed to know? Odd for them to assume with no info, and since it switched...yeah they represent only themselves <eye roll>. As for their kid...they'll hopefully have the choice!


So you’re one of em?


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## Skittles (Nov 27, 2019)

Sounds like a horror story waiting to happen Dx


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## LeFay (Nov 27, 2019)

I actually used to be otherkin a long time ago. I'd rather not get into that but the community around it is alright and generally they don't act like how that one did. Frankly they're generally nice people.

But as far as what I think about it.... to be honest I don't think it's a delusional thing or a mental health thing. I think it's identity stuff mixed in with escapism. They can do what they like, they aren't hurting anyone and honestly they aren't unlike the furry fandom at large.

What I mean by that is many fluffs tend to create sonas and oc's that are built around the ideal self and we use that as a form of escape from our real lives. The only real difference is otherkin/therian believe themselves to quite literally be that creature or character, in a more or less spiritual sense. 

Overall I think it's fine, it's mostly harmless and if it makes people feel comfortable with themselves, no one can fault them.


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## AppleButt (Nov 27, 2019)

It's not my thing.  I personally don't have the energy to identify as anyone other than me.  I did go to a therian panel at the last anthrocon cause I was curious, but not cause I was wanting to join.   

If that's what someone wants to do then that's fine with me.  You do you.


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## Mambi (Nov 29, 2019)

Parabellum3 said:


> So you’re one of em?



I guess so, because to me, my inner cat has always been with me, to the point where I would comfortably say it IS me.

Ever since I was a child, I felt feline. My actions, mannerisms, reactions, all feline. I walk through the world thinking like a cat, to the point where I openly catch myself purring or snarling as appropriate. When I relaxed it was always with a feline sprawl and mannerisms, drove my friends nuts! <LOL> I relate to cats in the zoos, and even my natural skills are feline (I'm a natural martial artist with above-average balance and reflexes and speed...no shock I've been told I move like a cat)

To me, I am a feline soul (Jaguar it feels like) trapped in this human body. So when I put on my ears, fangs, collar, and tail, I feel like I'm taking OFF a costume, not putting one on! Naturally I wear them all the time, even right now of course as I type this. It feels more natural for me to have the fangs than to not have them. My tail feels so sensual I swear I can feel people stroking it when they do. To me, this IS me...and I _*love *_being myself. <purrr>

Not everyone understands this (obviously). To many a fursona is just a character, and of course that's fine! But to me, it's much more...it's my true identity. If I could, I'd wear my outfit all the time, but unfortunately we live in a world that doesn't like it much. But at the same time, I know I'm human born to human parents and living in a human world and *certainly *wouldn't get offended by someone referring to be as such! That reaction is insane to me...regardless of how I feel, I know to the outside world I'm "only human". I just know in my heart that it's an accident of birth at best, and rather than fight my feline self, I simply chose to embrace it and even to cherish it!!! If that makes me insane, I'm cool with that. <giggle>


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## LameFox (Nov 30, 2019)

I've only encountered a few. It's been a mixed experience for me. Some who think they're spiritually an animal in a human body, others who feel they are but consider it psychological. Seeing as I don't believe in souls or consider them a valid explanation for anything I tend to get along better with the latter sort.



Kit H. Ruppell said:


> The identity virus continues to mutate into increasingly ridiculous strains, as I predicted it would almost ten years ago. It's just a pity it escaped its Tumblr quarantine.


Even just as a subculture it's been around since well before tumblr and a fair bit longer than 10 yrs.


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## Trndsttr (Nov 30, 2019)

I mean, as long at they don’t cross any lines or try to force others into identifying as an animal too or something then I really have no rational reason to dislike them.


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## Parabellum3 (Dec 1, 2019)

Mambi said:


> I guess so, because to me, my inner cat has always been with me, to the point where I would comfortably say it IS me.
> 
> Ever since I was a child, I felt feline. My actions, mannerisms, reactions, all feline. I walk through the world thinking like a cat, to the point where I openly catch myself purring or snarling as appropriate. When I relaxed it was always with a feline sprawl and mannerisms, drove my friends nuts! <LOL> I relate to cats in the zoos, and even my natural skills are feline (I'm a natural martial artist with above-average balance and reflexes and speed...no shock I've been told I move like a cat)
> 
> ...


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Dec 1, 2019)

I honestly think it's wishful thinking. Sure, I'd love to be an anthro cat, or any kind of cat for that matter. But no amount of wishing will make me magically transform into my preferred species.
I've run into some therians in the past, they seemed decent but yeah...
Though what's crazier are the people who think they're vampires.
To each their own though, long as they ain't hurting no one.


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## Purplefuzz (Dec 1, 2019)

It's pathetic that 1 bad egg is enough to taint a community that harmless. But then again allot of non furry/otherkin communities are the most hateful dumpster fires that wonder why people rather post on these communities despite not being from either community.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 1, 2019)

Does anybody know who came up with the word 'otherkin' anyway? Where did it come from?


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## Parabellum3 (Dec 1, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Does anybody know who came up with the word 'otherkin' anyway? Where did it come from?


“Kin” I believe means “kind”. So Otherkin essentially means ”Otherkind” or “Other kind of people.”


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## Pipistrele (Dec 1, 2019)

I frankly struggle to care all that much - as long as nobody acts like an asshole or (self-)ruin lives, it's not my business to tell anyone how to live, so I usually don't. If anything, furry fandom is inherently weird by itself (especially with anthropomorphic eroticism strongly tied to its history), so seeing other furries picking at otherkins is kind of "pot-kettle-black" scenario anyway; in the end result, I think we're all a bunch of weirdos.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Dec 1, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> I frankly struggle to care all that much - as long as nobody acts like an asshole or (self-)ruin lives, it's not my business to tell anyone how to live, so I usually don't. If anything, furry fandom is inherently weird by itself (especially with anthropomorphic eroticism strongly tied to its history), so seeing other furries picking at otherkins is kind of "pot-kettle-black" scenario anyway; in the end result, I think we're all a bunch of weirdos.


Yeah but you're the biggest weirdo of them all so...


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## SundayBest (Dec 2, 2019)

To be kind of serious, my religious beliefs include reincarnation of the soul and the soul’s incarnation is not limited to human beings. One of my very close friends considers himself a Therian and we’ve had some really interesting conversations about the concept of many lives. But he also doesn’t have a fit when people acknowledge that he’s a human being or insist on trying to (poorly) mimic animal behavior. As long as people acknowledge that they’re human in this life and they don’t run around like the “on every level except physical, I am a wolf” kid, I don’t see much problem with it. Unfortunately, that’s definitely the minority these days. 

Honestly? I think the brunt of the Otherkin fad is a bunch of people trying to cope with their lives not measuring up to what they thought they’d be. If you’re sad and depressed, it can be very appealing to make up a past life in which you were some powerful creature that demanded respect. The further someone goes with the coping, the harder it is for them to recognize delusion and reality. It’s sad, you know? Because it just alienates them further and makes the fantasy more attractive. Who knows, maybe in a decade or two we will see a new category in the DSM. I’d say that the person you spoke with probably falls under “delusional Otherkin.” 

You have to admit, it’s an interesting this to talk about.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 2, 2019)

...what about_* Otheriankins?*_


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## Deleted member 111470 (Dec 2, 2019)

I believe that they are people who are making stuff up to feel special. They want to have some sort of "complicated issue" when there isn't one.

I don't like them. They are attention seekers at best, people with a mental disorder at worst.


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## Brooks Dotson (Dec 2, 2019)

Rimna said:


> I believe that they are people who are making stuff up to feel special. They want to have some sort of "complicated issue" when there isn't one.
> 
> I don't like them. They are attention seekers at best, people with a mental disorder at worst.


I have to agree with that. Plus i find otherkin to be quite disturbing sometimes


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## Mambi (Dec 2, 2019)

SundayBest said:


> Honestly? I think the brunt of the Otherkin fad is a bunch of people trying to cope with their lives not measuring up to what they thought they’d be. If you’re sad and depressed, it can be very appealing to make up a past life in which you were some powerful creature that demanded respect. The further someone goes with the coping, the harder it is for them to recognize delusion and reality. It’s sad, you know? Because it just alienates them further and makes the fantasy more attractive.



That might be true with some, but in my case, I loved my life and still feel the same. I have no depression or insecurity in the world...in fact if anything I'm a happy extrovert and I have always done martial arts so "power" isn't an issue. Throughout it all, I simply felt feline, acted it instinctively, and still acknowledged reality around me (sitting in a classroom full of humans writing math reminds you of that fact fast, but the instant recess hit, the cat came out to play!). Since most people barely cared, alienation isn't an issue even to this day (my co-workers catch the occasional snarl or yup if I bump something and no pitchforks yet!). Also can it still be called a fad if I lived with it as far back as I can remember long pre-dating the internet itself? 

In other words to sum up, we're not ALL delusion losers, just some of us! <laugh>


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## MauEvigEternalCat (Dec 3, 2019)

To be honest I thought "otherkin" was synonymous with furry. Of course furry can mean a lot of things, from the fandom to characters who are anthropomorphic. We desire to be the anthropomorphic animals we identify with, but don't necessarily believe we are those animals. I always thought therians believed they shape shifted into those animals as well, like some kind of werewolves or werecats or what have you. But since real shifting doesn't happen, they just believe they shift on a spiritual level or mental/emotional level. I could be wrong.
The OP describes someone who I feel is very mentally ill and needs help. Of course, I've met some "interesting" people in my day, and some have had a hard time shifting away from their opinions. It took a lot of work to shift some of mine though so I understand, and I'm still working on some of my stubbornness I'll admit.
No, I don't think all therians are crazy like this. 
As for me I really do wish I was a cat. I might pretend, but I know I'm human. 
Then again I tend to relate to cats more than other human beings for the most part. Technically it's probably easier for me to befriend any kind of animal over a human, I'll walk up to dogs and say hi to them.


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## Night.Claw (Dec 11, 2019)

To 1st poster.

Well, to be honest, the person you described have nothing to do with anything like being a therian or otherkin. They are just a butthole, looking for attention. They are someone, who made up their "self" as an animal, so others feel pity or in some cases closer feelings towards them. That is why most of the time these people are the reasons, why the actual therian or otherkin people are getting hate. There is several like that outside, making up their lies and don't even care. They find it "fun" and something to be liked for. That is not the case, and never was. Letting people know who you are or "what" you are, is just letting them be your closer friends. You can't expect people to see "the animal inside you".

When i joined the forums more than a year ago, i started with a post on how i ended up here. Someone pointed out, that if i feel like an actual animal, i should visit a therapist. So i did. It was and still is an interesting experience to explore myself, and i can tell that is not a mental defect. It's more of a trauma of some short causing it. Sometimes smaller (like in my case) or sometimes bigger. We're not dangerous, and people who actually are therian/otherkin are not assholes about it, AND most certainly won't start screaming at you for not calling them an animal. We know we are human beings, but can't help identifying as some sort of animal. 

My description isn't using a scientific description on it, and i get yelled by others before, about how i'm fake because i'm not using the word "spiritually" and such... Yes. Those peoples are all around. They read it or heard it somewhere, found it "cool" (while i can tell you, it's just as cool as being depressed (which is probably a bad example cause lately even depression is a trend)) And they think "Hey, i will just be that". Well... Bad luck for those people, because you can't just become therian or otherkin on personal will. If you do? That's called stockholm syndrom, where the mind is forced to believe a lie.

That's just my opinion. 1 person's beside million others.


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## Doomer (Dec 11, 2019)

People just cant stop looking for problems where there are none.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Dec 11, 2019)

Ew, I heard those Therians are cringy weirdos that draw weird animal people fetishes and have saxophone in animal costumes /sarcasm


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## Crimcyan (Dec 12, 2019)

Most therians/otherkins ive seen are usually into some fucked up shit or just act like they are better then everyone else because they think they are some made up animal that doesn't exist


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## Night.Claw (Dec 12, 2019)

If we think about it, there are always going to be some of those "crazy" people in every group. I admit, i saw people being obsessed with their therian/otherkin side, or even playing gods, but not all of us are like that. There are "normal" people being butts as well, so this can be just a coincidence? Maybe i just "luckily" avoided the groups were those people are present in high amount.


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## Mambi (Dec 12, 2019)

Crimcyan said:


> Most therians/otherkins ive seen are usually into some fucked up shit or just act like they are better then everyone else because they think they are some made up animal that doesn't exist



<giggle> Well we've never met, but I assure you, the only fucked up shit I'm into is the usual fun stuff, and I know I'm only better than some people. <LOL> 
Seriously though, it sounds like you were talking to a crowd out for attention more than anything if they were THAT arrogant about it to you when you met/chatted with them. <grin>


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## Axel_is_Crafty (Jan 5, 2020)

Why do therians and otherkin say they identify as a really cool animal, like a wolf or a cat or a dragon?
Why is it never a really mundane creature,like a snail or a pig?


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 5, 2020)

I've asked that same question over and over again and I've never gotten a straight answer.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm an otherkin and I can say I'd probably be confused and a little judgemental as well in your shoes. For me I've always been a dragon, I've never once changed my pfp on here. I get very skeptical of otherkin claiming that they're something they've always been when it keeps changing all the time. Perhaps they're trying to find their true selves but perhaps they shouldn't run around saying they are something before being sure. As for their kid, most otherkin understand they are at least stuck in a human body and not physically a human, so they may just raise the baby as a human. That's at least what I hope. Also remember hormones go crazy during pregnancy so I wouldn't be suprised if that played a part into this.


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## Mambi (Jan 5, 2020)

Axel_is_Crafty said:


> Why do therians and otherkin say they identify as a really cool animal, like a wolf or a cat or a dragon?
> Why is it never a really mundane creature,like a snail or a pig?



I don't mean to be sarcastic, but think about for a moment...you'd be asking the person if true in their heart, in the way they see the world, the inner soul that speaks to them...would be a snail. Or a pig. That their core being and the drive that makes them themselves is to lay around, slowly exist, and not much more. And the fact you have not met these people surprises you? By definition the only people that would admit otherkin would be extroverts, and they do not describe the animals you're confused on. <giggle> Playful cats, lions, deer, you'll meet those, but of someone self-identifies as a dung beetle, they probably aren't getting out much. <grin>

So yeah, mathematically it's *possible*, but that person would then probably not leave the house and be anti-social, so you'd not meet them. Instead you meet the more "out-there" ones. It'd be like if every gay man you ever met wore pastels and had a lisp...you'd start to assume that ALL gay people dress and talk that way, even though that would be silly to assume otherwise.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Mambi said:


> I don't mean to be sarcastic, but think about for a moment...you'd be asking the person if true in their heart, in the way they see the world, the inner soul that speaks to them...would be a snail.
> 
> 
> I don't mean to be sarcastic, but think about for a moment...you'd be asking the person if true in their heart, in the way they see the world, the inner soul that speaks to them...would be a snail. Or a pig. That their core being and the drive that makes them themselves is to lay around, slowly exist, and not much more. And the fact you have not met these people surprises you? By definition the only people that would admit otherkin would be extroverts, and they do not describe the animals you're confused on. <giggle> Playful cats, lions, deer, you'll meet those, but of someone self-identifies as a dung beetle, they probably aren't getting out much. <grin>
> ...


I'm always open to the possibility of someone being something "odd". Many creatures have different histories in different mythologies that make them special. Perhaps there is a pig out there that identifies more with a mythology behind it than just the steretypical way we look at pigs.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Mambi said:


> I don't mean to be sarcastic, but think about for a moment...you'd be asking the person if true in their heart, in the way they see the world, the inner soul that speaks to them...would be a snail.
> 
> 
> I don't mean to be sarcastic, but think about for a moment...you'd be asking the person if true in their heart, in the way they see the world, the inner soul that speaks to them...would be a snail. Or a pig. That their core being and the drive that makes them themselves is to lay around, slowly exist, and not much more. And the fact you have not met these people surprises you? By definition the only people that would admit otherkin would be extroverts, and they do not describe the animals you're confused on. <giggle> Playful cats, lions, deer, you'll meet those, but of someone self-identifies as a dung beetle, they probably aren't getting out much. <grin>
> ...





Ovi the Dragon said:


> I'm always open to the possibility of someone being something "odd". Many creatures have different histories in different mythologies that make them special. Perhaps there is a pig out there that identifies more with a mythology behind it than just the steretypical way we look at pigs.



Otherkin aren't real, they're just people saying their mythical creatures for attention and validation. You aren't, and have never been, a dragon no matter how many times you say you are. And that's just because dragons aren't real.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Otherkin aren't real, they're just people saying their mythical creatures for attention and validation. You aren't, and have never been, a dragon no matter how many times you say you are. And that's just because dragons aren't real.


If that's what you believe then sure. I however believe spiritually I'm a dragon and it's very dear to me. I believe I'm here kinda like how an angel takes on a form of a human. And dragons pop up everywhere in the world almost as common as angels and demons. Believe me it isn't for attention.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Axel_is_Crafty said:


> Why do therians and otherkin say they identify as a really cool animal, like a wolf or a cat or a dragon?
> Why is it never a really mundane creature,like a snail or a pig?



Because they want to seem cool and special and unique, and there's nothing amazing about either of those animals. Those animals have really negative and awful things associated with them, while Dragons are powerful and amazing, Wolves are cool and dangerous, cats are all sleek and sneaky and everyone likes them. They just project traits they see in themselves onto an animal that has those same traits heavily associated with them.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Because they want to seem cool and special and unique, and there's nothing amazing about either of those animals. Those animals have really negative and awful things associated with them, while Dragons are powerful and amazing, Wolves are cool and dangerous, cats are all sleek and sneaky and everyone likes them. They just project traits they see in themselves onto an animal that has those same traits heavily associated with them.


I do wonder why you go after otherkin if you identify as they/them when others just as easily say you're making stuff up.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I do wonder why you go after otherkin if you identify as they/them when others just as easily say you're making stuff up.



Okay first of all.

Gender and this Otherkin shit have nothing to do with eachother at all. Thats like two totally different things. Me saying I want to go by They/Them is not at all in the same ballpark as someone calling themselves a fucking dragon. 

I don't even know where to begin with this statement because there's just so much wrong with it.


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Because they want to seem cool and special and unique, and there's nothing amazing about either of those animals. Those animals have really negative and awful things associated with them, while Dragons are powerful and amazing, Wolves are cool and dangerous, cats are all sleek and sneaky and everyone likes them. They just project traits they see in themselves onto an animal that has those same traits heavily associated with them.


I'm curious where you get your info. Because let's just say... you're in this forum, and attack people because... you have nothing to do, your friends are busy and you're bored and have only interest in attacking proven things. See? Things are easy to make up. Yes. Just like you did above.

Guess what? Join a server with actual otherkins, and you will see different animals. Not just 3. Not just 4. Hundreds.

And just for your info. I visit a psyhiatrist often, because i just want to say that i'm a ram, and i want to look cool. Indeed. Sounds completely logical.

What you just said is literally the same as "there is only 2 genders"...

Things you might don't believe in by pure ignorance actually exist.


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## Captain TrashPanda (Jan 5, 2020)

Boy, do we have another delusional dumpster fire here.
I'll watch it from the sane sideline, see how many pages rack up before a mod shuts this down.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I do wonder why you go after otherkin if you identify as they/them when others just as easily say you're making stuff up.





Night.Claw said:


> I'm curious where you get your info. Because let's just say... you're in this forum, and attack people because... you have nothing to do, your friends are busy and you're bored and have only interest in attacking proven things. See? Things are easy to make up. Yes. Just like you did above.
> 
> Guess what? Join a server with actual otherkins, and you will see different animals. Not just 3. Not just 4. Hundreds.
> 
> ...



Anyway, found where to begin with this shit finally. A dragon isn't something that's real, nor can you ever prove it's real. The reason you saying you're a dragon and me wanting to go by They/Them aren't the same is because you are claiming to be an entirely different species. You can't identify as another species, that's ridiculous. Species is not like Gender or Sexuality, no one is "Cis-Species" where they decide they are the species they're assigned at birth. You are only saying you are different species than you actually are because of whatever reasons you have for doing this. 

Good on you for going to therapy, I just hope it actually works and you stop deluding yourself into thinking you're an animal or some mythical creature.


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## Foxy Emy (Jan 5, 2020)

If I were to consider myself otherkin, my thought is that it would be much like a jungian archetype for me. It would be less about spiritual beliefs and more about seeing something of value in whatever I identified with and wanting to draw that out of the recesses of my personality to the forefront.

Other than that, I tend to see otherkin as a kind of religious or spiritual movement. If it causes you problems, then it is bad, if it helps you be a better person, then it is good. *shrugs*


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Anyway, found where to begin with this shit finally. A dragon isn't something that's real, nor can you ever prove it's real. The reason you saying you're a dragon and me wanting to go by They/Them aren't the same is because you are claiming to be an entirely different species. You can't identify as another species, that's ridiculous. Species is not like Gender or Sexuality, no one is "Cis-Species" where they decide they are the species they're assigned at birth. You are only saying you are different species than you actually are because of whatever reasons you have for doing this.
> 
> Good on you for going to therapy, I just hope it actually works and you stop deluding yourself into thinking you're an animal or some mythical creature.



Your tone of voice, and your ignorant attitude is nothing but an attack towards hundreds and thousands of people.

So i break this down to you real quick, and will hope that you can grind those gears hard enough to understand.

You as person identify as them/they mentally, and not physically. 
Therian/otherkin identify as an animal mentally and not physically.

So saying we just made up being an animal to sounds "cool" is the same as i would say that your gender is your sex and you just made up something to sounds "unique".

There are people who do this. Yes of course. Not everyone is honest, i agree on that part. But saying that a "mental issue" is not real, completely sounds like "vaccines cause autism".

And thank you for your worries, but my psyhiatris works with me on understanding my mentallity better and not trying to "cure" me. Idon't need help, not acceptance. I want to understand better what makes me feel like this.

And if you still want to attack therians/otherkins further. Bad news... you got your answer, and i will just count you as... "another bored person who have nothing better to do".


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Anyway, found where to begin with this shit finally. A dragon isn't something that's real, nor can you ever prove it's real. The reason you saying you're a dragon and me wanting to go by They/Them aren't the same is because you are claiming to be an entirely different species. You can't identify as another species, that's ridiculous. Species is not like Gender or Sexuality, no one is "Cis-Species" where they decide they are the species they're assigned at birth. You are only saying you are different species than you actually are because of whatever reasons you have for doing this.
> 
> Good on you for going to therapy, I just hope it actually works and you stop deluding yourself into thinking you're an animal or some mythical creature.


Still. People just as easily call you delusional for not being binary.


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## Sarachaga (Jan 5, 2020)

Emyrelda Seoni said:


> If I were to consider myself otherkin, my thought is that it would be much like a jungian archetype for me. It would be less about spiritual beliefs and more about seeing something of value in whatever I identified with and wanting to draw that out of the recesses of my personality to the forefront.
> 
> Other than that, I tend to see otherkin as a kind of religious or spiritual movement. If it causes you problems, then it is bad, if it helps you be a better person, then it is good. *shrugs*


I 100% agree with this.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> Your tone of voice, and your ignorant attitude is nothing but an attack towards hundreds and thousands of people.
> 
> So i break this down to you real quick, and will hope that you can grind those gears hard enough to understand.
> 
> ...





Sarachaga said:


> I 100% agree with this.




I would say I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by telling you "No, you're not an actual animal Mentally or Physically, you are just a human who needs to get professional help" but idk, at this point in my life I didn't think I would ever hear someone try to logically equate Gender with their Otherkin bullshit. 

You cannot identify as another species, but you can identify as another sexuality or Gender. you can try and dress up your "On all levels except physical I am a wolf" and "You just haven't met the _real _Otherkin community" spiel, nothing will ever change the fact that you just aren't a Dragon, cat, dog, wolf, whatever.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I would say I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by telling you "No, you're not an actual animal Mentally or Physically, you are just a human who needs to get professional help" but idk, at this point in my life I didn't think I would ever hear someone try to logically equate Gender with their Otherkin bullshit.
> 
> You cannot identify as another species, but you can identify as another sexuality or Gender. you can try and dress up your "On all levels except physical I am a wolf" and "You just haven't met the _real _Otherkin community" spiel, nothing will ever change the fact that you just aren't a Dragon, cat, dog, wolf, whatever.


I used to be like you until I came to terms with being otherkin. I would attack it like crazy and I regret ever doing that. I hope one day you can stop attacking people over this soon so you won't feel the same regret I do.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I used to be like you until I came to terms with being otherkin. I would attack it like crazy and I regret ever doing that. I hope one day you can stop attacking people over this soon so you won't feel the same regret I do.



Me saying you aren't a dragon is not at all attacking you. -_-

Normal people don't say they're dragons or cats or whatever. I know everyone else in this thread wants to treat this whole Otherkin thing with Kiddie gloves lest we hurt someone's feelings over not feeding  into their delusion, but I don't really think that's the right way to go about this. 

People say I'm delusional because they don't have a serious understanding of Gender and expression. People call you delusional, because that is literally what you are. You have deluded yourself into thinking you are a dragon for whatever reason, and you probably need to get help soon to stop thinking that way :/


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## Sarachaga (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I would say I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by telling you "No, you're not an actual animal Mentally or Physically, you are just a human who needs to get professional help" but idk, at this point in my life I didn't think I would ever hear someone try to logically equate Gender with their Otherkin bullshit.
> 
> You cannot identify as another species, but you can identify as another sexuality or Gender. you can try and dress up your "On all levels except physical I am a wolf" and "You just haven't met the _real _Otherkin community" spiel, nothing will ever change the fact that you just aren't a Dragon, cat, dog, wolf, whatever.


I dunno why you quoted me, I was not responding to your previous post. I also think you can't equate gender identity to being otherkin/therian. 

Frankly though, if it doesn't harm anyone, I don't see what's so bad about being otherkin. I'm not, so I'll admit I'm not super well versed on the topic tho.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Sarachaga said:


> I dunno why you quoted me, I was not responding to your previous post. I also think you can't equate gender identity to being otherkin/therian.
> 
> Frankly though, if it doesn't harm anyone, I don't see what's so bad about being otherkin. I'm not, so I'll admit I'm not super well versed on the topic tho.



Just because they aren't hurting anyone, that doesn't mean people should just be fine with them calling themselves mythical creatures and whatnot.  That is clearly a cry for help. And also, i didn't mean to quote you I clicked on accident.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Me saying you aren't a dragon is not at all attacking you. -_-
> 
> Normal people don't say they're dragons or cats or whatever. I know everyone else in this thread wants to treat this whole Otherkin thing with Kiddie gloves lest we hurt someone's feelings over not feeding  into their delusion, but I don't really think that's the right way to go about this.
> 
> People say I'm delusional because they don't have a serious understanding of Gender and expression. People call you delusional, because that is literally what you are. You have deluded yourself into thinking you are a dragon for whatever reason, and you probably need to get help soon to stop thinking that way :/


In the end people will still call you deluded just as much as you call me deluded.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> In the end people will still call you deluded just as much as you call me deluded.



yeah because that's what you are. What, you want an apology from me or something?


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I would say I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by telling you "No, you're not an actual animal Mentally or Physically, you are just a human who needs to get professional help" but idk, at this point in my life I didn't think I would ever hear someone try to logically equate Gender with their Otherkin bullshit.
> 
> You cannot identify as another species, but you can identify as another sexuality or Gender. you can try and dress up your "On all levels except physical I am a wolf" and "You just haven't met the _real _Otherkin community" spiel, nothing will ever change the fact that you just aren't a Dragon, cat, dog, wolf, whatever.


Well, it's your opinion. I tried to point out that it has flaws, and you might need to consider what others say, but you only go with "No. I ignore it. It's not real. Period".
A lot of things are "not real" what people believe in, accept it, and take part in. This is just one of those things. And believe me or not, gender and this, have similatities, even if you accept, and even if you don't.

But lets just leave it here. This topic doesn't worth to fight over. People accept things, others not. Even i don't accept things that is "proven" to be real. Because we see things, and experience things differently.

I'm not calling out people (or at least not my intention) or forcing people to feel what i feel or believe what i believe. I tried to make my point of view visible to you and to others. If you refuse to believe that we as therians exist, and people not just looking for attention (which is a bit weird to me, since people usually state as crazy instead of unique or cool at first, so it's the worst tactic to look for friends and such), it's up to you. It's your point of view. 

I will just state that, i would like to peacefully end this idea exchange, and apologize is i said anything that was hurtful towards you.
(In all honesty, when i saw you attack us, i wanted to protect what am i, and i visibly didn't thought first. Needed a bit understand what i said/did)


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> yeah because that's what you are. What, you want an apology from me or something?


That's not very nice. And no. I just want you to understand that you're probably just as "deluded" as I am.


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## Nyro46 (Jan 5, 2020)

God. Okay. Usually I try to stay out of this crap, but I need to say something. I'm not even an otherkin, and I have never identified as one. And I can't say I will even ever understand exactly the whole otherkin thing myself. But it's really kind of atrocious how many people I am seeing on here who are lashing out on people who _do _identify as such, especially within such a community, basically calling anyone who identifies as otherkin/therian invalid or delusional. Honestly I don't see it as very different from religions or other spiritual beliefs . . . and I might not believe in religions or whatnot, but I would never go tell someone they are invalid or delusional because of them. I don't know why people can't, you know, judge others on the person they actually are, not for what their beliefs or identities whatever are. (Aside from the few things that are actually immoral, or beliefs that actually hurt other people). But someone having a belief, or whatever, that they are some kind of animal in spirit, is not hurting anyone, and as long as it's not hurting the person themselves (like it isn't being taken to extreme levels) then I don't see any problem with it and it seems the few otherkins/therians I've seen on this site actually seem like fairly pleasant people.

I hate to say this, but it's difficult to call the furry community "friendly and accepting" when in the same place I see someone calling out two individuals as delusional/invalid because of an identity they have. I'm not boasting this (I actually wish it wasn't true) but recently I've ended up with quite a long block list on here because I'm tired of seeing posts from hateful people and people supporting/normalizing other immoral things (which I won't specify because it's irrelevant to the topic and I don't need to start up _that_ debate for the hundredth time on this site).

I'm not saying there are people who are otherkin that aren't off-the-wall or unpleasant, because there are obviously people like that within any community, or any identity, or really anything EVER. I suppose I kind of draw the line when it gets into the entire "fictionkin" thing though (people who think they are reincarnations of fictional characters from established media, usually not a character they made up on their own . . .) but even then I'm not going to harass people who are apart of that because it really has no effect on my life or the greater scheme of things.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> That's not very nice. And no. I just want you to understand that you're probably just as "deluded" as I am.



Except I am not at all delusional in wanting to not identify as either male or female. You are delusional because you think you're a dragon. People who call me delusional are wrong in calling me that, because my identity is valid, and yours is not.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

I can't read this conversation because someone's me blocked smh such thin skin here


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Except I am not at all delusional in wanting to not identify as either male or female. You are delusional because you think you're a dragon. People who call me delusional are wrong in calling me that, because my identity is valid, and yours is not.


I wish you could see the hypocrisy in that statement.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

Mkay I see what's going on here. I think otherkin etc can be compared to nonbinary and other alternative forms of gender identity. For the most part, those gender identities are mental constructs that people have created outside of the normal male/female dichotomy. It's peoples' right to believe they are whatever they want. It's the same rationalism to support personal religious freedom.

Therefor, anyone who doesn't simultaneously support someone's right to call themselves whatever they want, be that male, nonbinary, dragon, Christian, or so forth, is missing the point of a very important human rights argument.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I used to be like you until I came to terms with being otherkin. I would attack it like crazy and I regret ever doing that. I hope one day you can stop attacking people over this soon so you won't feel the same regret I do.


 What would disabuse you of those beliefs, the fact that you were conceived by a human being?



Ovi the Dragon said:


> I wish you could see the hypocrisy in that statement.


 I can add frosting on my cake too, doesn't mean it's good for me or the people around me.


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## Simo (Jan 5, 2020)

Emyrelda Seoni said:


> If I were to consider myself otherkin, my thought is that it would be much like a jungian archetype for me. It would be less about spiritual beliefs and more about seeing something of value in whatever I identified with and wanting to draw that out of the recesses of my personality to the forefront.
> 
> Other than that, I tend to see otherkin as a kind of religious or spiritual movement. If it causes you problems, then it is bad, if it helps you be a better person, then it is good. *shrugs*



I like your take on things here. Taking a deep breath and looking at matters from the perspective of Carl Jung would go a good ways in adding nuance to such discussions and acting as a sort of balm.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> What would disabuse you of those beliefs, the fact that you were conceived by a human being?
> 
> I can add frosting on my cake too, doesn't mean it's good for me or the people around me.


I believe spiritually I'm a dragon. It has nothing to do with my physical form.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I wish you could see the hypocrisy in that statement.



I guess I can sort of see where your coming from on the whole Hypocrisy thing if I put myself in your shoes and claim I'm a deer for a second, but the thing about Gender, Expression, and Otherkin is that the first two things are way more complicated, have had scientific research and evidence done on them to back up the people who claim they are that way, and has existed since forever. 

People who say they are Otherkin have absolutely no evidence to back up their feelings other than just "I _feel _like I am a wolf" which sure as hell is not enough to actually prove that you _are _a wolf. Your identity is not valid because it isn't even something you can identify _as. _Someone can choose to identify as male or female, because those things are real. Someone can choose to identify as a lesbian or as a bisexual person, because Sexuality is something that we know exists in the human brain, we have already done countless studies and experiments on why people wanna have sex in the first place. 

And even if we did do studies on this Otherkin thing, I seriously doubt the results would come back positive and scientists would reveal that dragons and mermaids have existed since forever and have always been real, and that's why Otherkin exist. First of all, for me to even begin to accept you as a dragon, I have to first believe that Dragons are real. Otherkin think people are just hating on them for not accepting their identity right off the bat because its weird, but there's a shit ton of layers to someone saying "I am a cat" or "I am a mermaid". 

You tell that to someone and then get mad at them when they don't immediately accept it, without thinking about the actual implications of you being a dragon or a mermaid.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I believe spiritually I'm a dragon. It has nothing to do with my physical form.


 Okay, that makes more sense then.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I believe spiritually I'm a dragon. It has nothing to do with my physical form.



you aren't a dragon Mentally, Physically, _or _Spiritually. You are a human being.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> you aren't a dragon Mentally, Physically, _or _Spiritually. You are a human being.


 I mean, Ovi made a logical statement though, while gender differs on subject, I still think it's a delusion to say you think you are something else other than what you were conceived as, because it's still a belief, Mentally, Physically, _or _Spiritually, so we should be treating people equally despite what you accept or not accept as a delusion.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> you aren't a dragon Mentally, Physically, _or _Spiritually. You are a human being.


That's your opinion.


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

This thread is turning from opinions, into straightforward hate.
People never fail to stay true to their personalities.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> I mean, Ovi made a logical statement though, while gender differs on subject, I still think it's a delusion to say you think you are something else other than what you were conceived as, because it's still a belief, Mentally, Physically, _or _Spiritually, so we should be treating people equally despite what you accept or not accept as a delusion.



No we shouldn't. We shouldn't feed into people's delusions just to make them feel better, we should tell them that they're being ridiculous and ask them to get help.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> This thread is turning from opinions, into straightforward hate.
> People never fail to stay true to their personalities.



I like how the trans person is hating on the therians. It's really quite ironic. It's important to recognize, though, that it's actually coming from a great deal of self-hate. And not to single out trans people or anything, but it's unfortunately something I've noticed before. They tend to be easily depressed about their state, or angry and bitter. (Quite a few are just regular mellow people, too.)


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> This thread is turning from opinions, into straightforward hate.
> People never fail to stay true to their personalities.


 Where is this so-called "straightforward hate"? It's literally a discussion of people with different opinions.


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> I like how the trans person is hating on the therians. It's really quite ironic. It's important to recognize, though, that it's actually coming from a great deal of self-hate. And not to single out trans people or anything, but it's unfortunately something I've noticed before. They tend to be easily depressed about their state, or angry and bitter. (Quite a few are just regular mellow people, too.)


I mean, as long as they were stating their opinions why they don't believe us, it was reasonable. Now it's just out of hand.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> No we shouldn't. We shouldn't feed into people's delusions just to make them feel better, we should tell them that they're being ridiculous and ask them to get help.


Perhaps your psychiatrist shouldn't feed into your "delusions" of being something other than male or female then.


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> Where is this so-called "straightforward hate"? It's literally a discussion of people with different opinions.


If you willing to read, he literally calling us crazy and in need of help. I mean... do i need to describe how this is an attack against a person?


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Perhaps your psychiatrist shouldn't feed into your "delusions" of being something other than male or female then.





Night.Claw said:


> If you willing to read, he literally calling us crazy and in need of help. I mean... do i need to describe how this is an attack against a person?





Night.Claw said:


> I mean, as long as they were stating their opinions why they don't believe us, it was reasonable. Now it's just out of hand.



You two just got your feelings hurt because someone decided they weren't gonna feed into your ideas about being a cat or a dragon.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> If you willing to read, he literally calling us crazy and in need of help. I mean... do i need to describe how this is an attack against a person?



I'd recommend just reporting and moving on. There's not much to gain from listening to angry screeching.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> If you willing to read, he literally calling us crazy and in need of help. I mean... do i need to describe how this is an attack against a person?


 Maybe it's true, maybe we all really all have a mental disorder on here that makes us crazy, who knows? What if we're all crazy in our own ways, just crazy enough that we're calling each other crazy though?


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> Maybe it's true, maybe we all really all have a mental disorder on here that makes us crazy, who knows? What if we're all crazy, just crazy enough that we're calling each other crazy though?


The difference is, that i get my "craziness" checked regularly. 


SwiftDog said:


> I'd recommend just reporting and moving on. There's not much to gain from listening to angry screeching.


I'm here to see where this is going. No matter how much i dislik, even i have that human nature that curiosity overtakes my "pride" to leave.


Liseran Thistle said:


> You two just got your feelings hurt because someone decided they weren't gonna feed into your ideas about being a cat or a dragon.


I didn't get hurt. I apologized to you and moved forward. You still trying to place wood to the fire, so i stopped taking your "opinion" considerable.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> The difference is, that i get my "craziness" checked regularly.
> 
> I'm here to see where this is going. No matter how much i dislik, even i have that human nature that curiosity overtakes my "pride" to leave.
> 
> I didn't get hurt. I apologized to you and moved forward. You still trying to place wood to the fire, so i stopped taking your "opinion" considerable.


I'll just do what you're doing and end it here.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> The difference is, that i get my "craziness" checked regularly.


 By whom? Leave them, they ain't doing you any favor.


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## Liseran Thistle (Jan 5, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> The difference is, that i get my "craziness" checked regularly.
> 
> I'm here to see where this is going. No matter how much i dislik, even i have that human nature that curiosity overtakes my "pride" to leave.
> 
> I didn't get hurt. I apologized to you and moved forward. You still trying to place wood to the fire, so i stopped taking your "opinion" considerable.



Whatever. You sure do seem hurt with all these "They're being hateful towards us" stuff.

I'm just amazed that people would really be so accepting of people that they would even accept people who are as delusional as Otherkin. Here's hoping your therapist does their job and you stop thinking your a fox/ram or whatever.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Jan 5, 2020)

Oh for fucks sake how am I on the same side as Ovi for once? This is _your_ fault, Mis Thistle!
_REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE_


Liseran Thistle said:


> Whatever. You sure do seem hurt with all these "They're being hateful towards us" stuff.
> 
> I'm just amazed that people would really be so accepting of people that they would even accept people who are as delusional as Otherkin. Here's hoping your therapist does their job and you stop thinking your a fox/ram or whatever.


There is nothing to be gained by being abrasive, or frankly just outright asinine over this. I don't give a shit whether they're real or not, they're not hurting anyone or themselves for that matter. Even the obnoxious ones like in the OP aren't harmful, they're just obnoxious.
Before you came in, this thread was mostly positive and pleasant aside from a few minor blips. I didn't like the people popping in and saying shit before you, but at least they were mostly just "I don't like it" and left. They didn't sit here screaming "NO, FUCK YOU I'M RIGHT."

You're being an Ovi right now. Stop being an Ovi.


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## Night.Claw (Jan 5, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Whatever. You sure do seem hurt with all these "They're being hateful towards us" stuff.
> 
> I'm just amazed that people would really be so accepting of people that they would even accept people who are as delusional as Otherkin. Here's hoping your therapist does their job and you stop thinking your a fox/ram or whatever.


I'm not hurt. I just realized that you're the kind of person, who in a face to face conversation would start to rise their voice, or even turn physical. So it barely worth the words. 


MetalWolfBruh said:


> By whom? Leave them, they ain't doing you any favor.


They helped my depression aggression issues and most of my anxiety problems. So i think i stay. Not to mention that they are covered by free healthcare.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Oh for fucks sake how am I on the same side as Ovi for once? This is _your_ fault, Mis Thistle!
> _REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE_
> 
> There is nothing to be gained by being abrasive, or frankly just outright asinine over this. I don't give a shit whether they're real or not, they're not hurting anyone or themselves for that matter. Even the obnoxious ones like in the OP aren't harmful, they're just obnoxious.
> ...


I don't know whether to like this or not.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I don't know whether to like this or not.


Schrödinger says both.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> By whom? Leave them, they ain't doing you any favor.


Therapy actually helps with a lot of stuff. My anxiety disorder is getting better and I fully think my therapy is the cause.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Schrödinger says both.


Too bad there's no like and dislike button lol


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## Captain TrashPanda (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I don't know whether to like this or not.


Maybe take the support while it's still there.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

Captain TrashPanda said:


> Maybe take the support while it's still there.


I think he's referencing my past abrasiveness which I'm trying to change.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 5, 2020)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Oh for fucks sake how am I on the same side as Ovi for once? This is _your_ fault, Mis Thistle!
> _REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE_
> 
> There is nothing to be gained by being abrasive, or frankly just outright asinine over this. I don't give a shit whether they're real or not, they're not hurting anyone or themselves for that matter. Even the obnoxious ones like in the OP aren't harmful, they're just obnoxious.
> ...


 I can say trans people have severed my relationship with them in various ways, hurting me in a sense, in the end, adding to the stereotype, but I don't particularly think I have had any issues with otherkin, unless they were trans on top of that, and were keeping the otherkin part a secret. But, maybe Ovi and Thistle are both right about each other though, which led to this very discussion about beliefs that may not be true, and ended up hurting each other as a result of their "disorders", if I may call them that?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> I can say trans people have severed my relationship with them in various ways, hurting me in a sense, in the end, adding to the stereotype, but I don't particularly think I have had any issues with otherkin, unless they were trans on top of that, and were keeping that a secret. But, maybe Ovi and Thistle are both right about each other though, which led to this very discussion about beliefs that may not be true, and ended up hurting each other?


I'm not hurt. Just disappointed.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> I can say trans people have severed my relationship with them in various ways, hurting me in a sense, in the end, adding to the stereotype, but I don't particularly think I have had any issues with otherkin, unless they were trans on top of that, and were keeping the otherkin part a secret. But, maybe Ovi and Thistle are both right about each other though, which led to this very discussion about beliefs that may not be true, and ended up hurting each other as a result of their "disorders", if I may call them that?



I only see one person in the wrong here, and it's clearly not Ovi, IMO.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> I can say trans people have severed my relationship with them in various ways, hurting me in a sense, in the end, adding to the stereotype, but I don't particularly think I have had any issues with otherkin, unless they were trans on top of that, and were keeping the otherkin part a secret. But, maybe Ovi and Thistle are both right about each other though, which led to this very discussion about beliefs that may not be true, and ended up hurting each other as a result of their "disorders", if I may call them that?


Note I don't think they are delusional about being nonbinary. I was using quotations around the term.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 5, 2020)

My head hurts.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> And not to single out trans people or anything, but it's unfortunately something I've noticed before. They tend to be easily depressed about their state, or angry and bitter. (Quite a few are just regular mellow people, too.)


Not a whole lot to notice here, there are many studies currently revolving around depression and it's correlation to transsexualism. The step most trans*people eventually undergo, their hormone therapy (especially with men transitioning to women), are known to cause depressions with people who have previously been perfectly mentally healthy, aside from being transsexual of course. Add to that low acceptance towards transsexualism from friends and especially family members (who are especially prone to resignation , again, there's studies on that too) and the fact that in 2015, over half of the people in question attempted suicide - and you start to see why many are angry, bitter or otherwise behaving negatively, especially when their therapy hasn't progressed as much yet.

Point is, trans*people aren't trans and also often depressive, most trans*people are depressive as the result of its psychological pathomechanisms. And you can hardly hold such a thing against them.
(Though, please consider this a general clarification and note a feeble attempt at white knighting, continue judging as much as you want.)


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Not a whole lot to notice here, there are many studies currently revolving around depression and it's correlation to transsexualism. The step most trans*people eventually undergo, their hormone therapy (especially with men transitioning to women), are known to cause depressions with people who have previously been perfectly mentally healthy, aside from being transsexual of course. Add to that low acceptance towards transsexualism from friends and especially family members (who are especially prone to resignation , again, there's studies on that too) and the fact that in 2015, over half of the people in question attempted suicide - and you start to see why many are angry, bitter or otherwise behaving negatively, especially when their therapy hadn't progressed as much yet.
> 
> Point is, trans*people aren't trans and also often depressive, most trans*people are depressive as the result of its psychological pathomechanisms. And you can hardly hold such a thing against them.
> (Though, please consider this a general clarification and note a feeble attempt at white knighting, bullshit may remain bullshit.)



Why the asterisks?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> Why the asterisks?


I was confused at first too but apparently that's just the way trans used to be spelled.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> Why the asterisks?


It's a useful shortcut. "Transsexuality" is a very vague thing. For example, the thing most people refer to, a men transitioning to a women or the other way around, in medical terms is transidentity. So in order to include everything and avoid accidentally offending someone, the asterisks serves as a shortcut for roughly everything that's in that spectrum.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I was confused at first too but apparently that's just the way trans used to be spelled.





ClumsyWitch said:


> It's a useful shortcut. "Transsexuality" is a very vague thing. For example, the thing most people refer to, a men transitioning to a women or the other way around, in medical terms is transidentity. So in order to include everything and avoid accidentally offending someone, the asterisks serves as a shortcut for roughly everything that's in that spectrum.



I've never worried too much about offending people. If someone gets their knickers in a knot because I said trans instead of transsexual person, or some such, that's on them and not me. 

Because I fully support trans, and am an ally, so if someone gets angry at me because I use the term wrong, they are barking at the wrong person.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> I've never worried too much about offending people. If someone gets their knickers in a knot because I said trans instead of transsexual person, or some such, that's on them and not me.
> 
> Because I fully support trans, and am an ally, so if someone gets angry at me because I use the term wrong, they are barking at the wrong person.


Don't care about your may-may's, I care about not offending trans*people. That's why I write teensy little stars behind my words.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 5, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Don't care about your may-may's, I care about not offending trans*people. That's why I write teensy little stars behind my words.


Imo it seems a little thinskinned if someone freaks out over transgender instead of saying transsexual. But this is really off topic.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Don't care about your may-may's, I care about not offending trans*people. That's why I write teensy little stars behind my words.



Thanks for your explanation. I'm sure I'll offend you at some point. Cheers!


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## ConorHyena (Jan 5, 2020)

I am offended by this thread.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I am offended by this thread.



I offend myself


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## Fallowfox (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> I offend myself



Wash more often.


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## KD142000 (Jan 5, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> It's a useful shortcut. "Transsexuality" is a very vague thing. For example, the thing most people refer to, a men transitioning to a women or the other way around, in medical terms is transidentity. So in order to include everything and avoid accidentally offending someone, the asterisks serves as a shortcut for roughly everything that's in that spectrum.


Don't disagree with you...but wouldn't 'trans' by itself do that? Since those terms do all begin with that prefix (if that's the right term). But I understand the shortcutting. I've been using trans alone for the same purpose...and can't see why it might offend someone if I use that rather than trans*. (If I do, I'm sorry and it was entirely unintentional)

On topic, though...I don't have any problem with otherkin and such so long as they don't actively seek to change other people's beliefs on the subject (as in, making everyone else believe they, too, are otherkin). I'm fine to let them make their own decisions about their identity. I...don't see what advantage it has over saying you've been reincarnated from a cat to a human or...your spiritual animal is a cat...but I guess it's fine.

But getting offended when you refer to them as human or even forcing their children to be otherkin...yeah, that's just plain assholish and shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Kids should have a choice in the matter, just as they did when they were young. Impressing beliefs on children is child abuse, no offence. They should be free to choose what they believe in. This is one of the major reasons why racism and the like still exist (that's on another topic, I am not saying otherkin are racist or are responsible for it or anything).


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jan 5, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> I've been using trans alone for the same purpose...and can't see why it might offend someone if I use that rather than trans*. (If I do, I'm sorry and it was entirely unintentional)


I recommend you just go ahead and ask a trans*person  when the chance arises as to why they might personally feel offended.
I found that writing it leaves little to criticise, and the best way to avoid drama or hurt feelings is to just do that. Also, "transidentity" doesn't roll off the tongue very well and is a hassle to type.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> I recommend you just go ahead and ask a trans*person  when the chance arises as to why they might personally feel offended.
> I found that writing it leaves little to criticise, and the best way to avoid drama or hurt feelings is to just do that. Also, "transidentity" doesn't roll off the tongue very well and is a hassle to type.



The magic asterisk is the secret to effective communication and an elimination of hurt feelings. That's amazing.


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## Deleted member 132067 (Jan 5, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> The magic asterisk is the secret to effective communication and an elimination of hurt feelings. That's amazing.


If you put it on your skin it will remove
irritations and make it softer, too. Basically like aloe vera, just don't eat it.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 5, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> If you put it on your skin it will remove
> irritations and make it softer, too. Basically like aloe vera, just don't eat it.


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## Foxy Emy (Jan 5, 2020)

*Sigh*

Gender is what we make it.
Language is what we make it.
Species is what make it.
The world is what we make it.

Rather than state "this person can't be a girl because of their anatomy" or "this person can't be a dragon because of their anatomy," we may want to ask "why does this person identify themselves this way when I would not? What do they have to gain or lose? If I expand my definition of (insert topic here) to include them in that category, what will the outcome be?"

A lot of stuff really does come down to semantics. For example, if you define gender as "a biological classification based on the anatomy of genitalia" you may see someone as a boy. However, if you define gender as "a part of someone's personal sense of identity relating to social norms for those of male or female biological anatomy" there is a *lot* more wiggle room.

I identify as female because I identify more with the social norms for people born with female anatomy. It feels more comfortable for me than the norms associated with male anatomy.

This makes arguing with me about being a male pointless because of how I was born, a pointless one. My definition of gender has very little to do with that. I choose to use the current sociological definition because it is more inclusive and allows a divide between gender and biological sex. Gender makes more sense to be a part of someone's identity than biological sex does.

I am sure the same can be said of otherkin. If being a dragon means having physical scales and and wings to you, but having a draconic spirit (literal or figurative) to the person you are trying convince, you aren't going to get very far. You are using different definitions.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jan 6, 2020)

I'm actually a concrete saucer in every way except physically, mentally and spiritually.


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## MetalWolfBruh (Jan 6, 2020)

Rimna said:


> I'm actually a concrete saucer in every way except physically, mentally and spiritually.


 That isn't any less valid than what people usually identify with, unless we accept that many foundations within this world are in fact binary, and whether or not we get to choose and say what something is because of our beliefs.


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## Axel_is_Crafty (Jan 8, 2020)

I don't really believe therians and otherkin(and I don't really understand non binary people either),but I've realised there isn't much point in arguing about it.It won't change anything,and starting arguments will just make stuff worse.
We just have to agree to disagree,I guess.


----------



## Axel_is_Crafty (Jan 8, 2020)

also,I'm glad this thread has calmed down


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## Gift (Jan 8, 2020)

I don't care what people call themselves, as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others.


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## SwiftDog (Jan 9, 2020)

Gift said:


> I don't care what people call themselves, as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others.



Only problem with that us that sometimes people think people are hurting themselves by thinking they're an animal. And sometimes those people actually could be hurting themselves with that belief (it's usually benign though).


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 9, 2020)

SwiftDog said:


> Only problem with that us that sometimes people think people are hurting themselves by thinking they're an animal. And sometimes those people actually could be hurting themselves with that belief (it's usually benign though).


Can you give an example of people hurting themselves with that belief? I can think of only like one example and I can't tell if it's just a shitpost or not.


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## dragon-in-sight (Jan 9, 2020)

I know that otherkin have a bit of wacky reputation in the fandom. But that's mostly because the concept isn't communicated that well to the public. Otherkin in a nutshell is more of a spiritual philosophy. It revolves around the concept of soul and reincarnation similar to what is found in many native animistic cultures. Due to the Otherkin belive, everything has a spirit, and this spirit has a core essence that deffines it's verry being across all lives and incarnations. This essence is usually refered to when a Kin talks about him being the animal or entity he epitomises. Most kin share a strong affinity for the animal they identify with and strive to join with it's archetype and nature. For most it's a journey of self-awareness and self-cultivation.
But as in every subculture or belive system, there are certain people that are just there to be the special little snowflake without caring for the actual substance. And as with the rest of the fandom it's mostly these conspicuous people which shape other peoples view of a topic. In the end it's mostly an issue of bad PR.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 10, 2020)

I think the real problems are factkin that identify as another real human being. Like someone could claim to be Adele and tell everyone that's who they are. Basically they impersonate someone.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Jan 10, 2020)

I am mostly indifferent about therians and otherkins whatever floats their boat is fine with me. However, all I care about when it comes to therians and otherkins is they do not hurt themselves. (Note: sometimes I wish I where something other than being human so I do feel sympathy towards the aforementioned groups.This is due to various stupid crap in my life that I hate dealing with on a daily basis.)


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Jan 10, 2020)

normally i'd say something edgy or offensive but i just dunno. you do you girl


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## Fallowfox (Jan 10, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I think the real problems are factkin that identify as another real human being. Like someone could claim to be Adele and tell everyone that's who they are. Basically they impersonate someone.



I am kinkin.

*Kinception. *


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Jan 10, 2020)

Rimna said:


> I believe that they are people who are making stuff up to feel special. They want to have some sort of "complicated issue" when there isn't one.
> 
> I don't like them. They are attention seekers at best, people with a mental disorder at worst.


reminds me of my sister when she was around 8/9. kept saying she was slue footed/flat footed and ambidextrous. obviously this was not true, just wanted attention or to feel special and unique.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 10, 2020)

Rimna said:


> I believe that they are people who are making stuff up to feel special. They want to have some sort of "complicated issue" when there isn't one.
> 
> I don't like them. They are attention seekers at best, people with a mental disorder at worst.


I can assure you that I'm not an attention seeker. I didn't even mention I was otherkin until the thread came up about it. I do have a mental disorder that's called an anxiety disorder but it has nothing to do with my cognitive ability. I used to not like otherkin either until I found out I was one. I remember being nasty toward them which I regret deeply.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Jan 10, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> I am kinkin.
> 
> *Kinception. *


So you are a other kin within an other kin?.......


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Jan 10, 2020)

Rimna said:


> I'm actually a concrete saucer in every way except physically, mentally and spiritually.


can i identify as a spoon?


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Jan 10, 2020)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I used to not like otherkin either until I found out I was one.


?


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## Captain TrashPanda (Jan 10, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I am offended by this thread.


I am offended by your offendedness.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jan 10, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> can i identify as a spoon?



Yes, you can be anything.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 10, 2020)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> So you are a other kin within an other kin?.......



Like Russian dolls.



Rimna said:


> Yes, you can be anything.



Except my lover. 

because if you wanna be my lover you gotta get with my friends.
Make it last forever, friendship never ends.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 10, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> ?


I used to be pretty mean towards otherkin. It only took until after I accepted I was one to stop being mean to them.


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## Mambi (Jan 10, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> can i identify as a spoon?



Yes, if you can tell me what feeling like a spoon means, how it drives you,  and how it defines your soul and behaviour. 

Otherwise...no. <grin>


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## Captain TrashPanda (Jan 10, 2020)

I love how the OP hasn’t appeared since the first page.
Wonder how much longer this dung heap of delusion is gonna stay open before a mod closes it.
Either way, imma leave this here, maybe we can interview this absolute unit and get his opinion on all this crap.




Edit: I’d like to say I identify as an AH-64 Apache helicopter, see y’all in WW3 babyyyy


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## Fallowfox (Jan 10, 2020)

This spoon discussion is making me think of Uri Geller.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Jan 10, 2020)

Captain TrashPanda said:


> I love how the OP hasn’t appeared since the first page.
> Wonder how much longer this dung heap of delusion is gonna stay open before a mod closes it.
> Either way, imma leave this here, maybe we can interview this absolute unit and get his opinion on all this crap.
> 
> ...


Well that was outright rude.


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## Zerzehn (Jan 10, 2020)

Captain TrashPanda said:


> I’d like to say I identify as an AH-64 Apache helicopter, see y’all in WW3 babyyyy


As much as the spiritual aspect of otherkin is complete woo, that's just frankly unfunny.


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## Glycanthrope (Jan 21, 2020)

As a furry,  as a friend of the therian community, and as a as a writer of therian-themed fiction since 2015,
I must have met a hundred self-identifying therians/otherkin.

I have found the therian subculture to be a highly diverse group (much like furries), when it comes to the individual's beliefs, experiences, and indeed,
definition of what it means to be a therian. Rather than a subculture that can be nailed down by a set of core values, belief systems or heroes,
I have met with:

therians who idealize and/or romanticize a target species, and adopt select traits (real or perceived) onto themselves.
therians who feel a spiritual connection between themselves and non-human species.
therians who "feel fully human, plus something else...." This "else" is not always an existing animal, but may extend to mythological creatures ("otherkin").
therians who feel they were non-human in a previous life, and that part of this identity has somehow carried over to present life.
therians who incorporate subtle animalistic behavior into their every day expression (sniffing the air, growling, barking, howling)
therians who experience "phantom limbs," such as tails and movable ears (while fully aware, such limb is not present.)

These are only some common traits I've stumbled across in the therian community,
and I'm sure the therian readers of this thread go: *"Hey! why am I not on that damn list?"*
So feel free to bark up.

WHAT I have not met, is the media stereotype:
"Look! I am a wolf, trapped in a human body."
Not once, not in my five years. None!
The "I'm an aminal" stereotype seems to be mainly anecdotal, or a media-fuelled construct. (Apart from notables, such as "Boomer the dog"  and the late Dennis "Stalking cat" Avner.)

As FallowFox pointed out : "I watched an otherkin server for a while and to be honest I was pretty bored by how normal they were!"

Delusional people? Sure, I've met a few. But they have mainly struck me as individuals with a massive need to feed their ego, and
exploit their "therian" identifier as a means to impress and/or prey on less confident members of the community.
("I alone know how to be a true therian, and I'm here to teach you...")

What I HAVE met, is a loose collective of (typically) creative, nature-loving people of all ages, who have put a modern spin on traditional shamanism.


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## Guifrog (Jan 21, 2020)

Might be really tough if it plays a big role in their identity to the point of getting disturbed with the feeling of not belonging to such a different body, or to the society. But if they get along reasonably well with human routine then I guess it's fine!


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## Kit the fox (Nov 23, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I guess I can sort of see where your coming from on the whole Hypocrisy thing if I put myself in your shoes and claim I'm a deer for a second, but the thing about Gender, Expression, and Otherkin is that the first two things are way more complicated, have had scientific research and evidence done on them to back up the people who claim they are that way, and has existed since forever.
> 
> People who say they are Otherkin have absolutely no evidence to back up their feelings other than just "I _feel _like I am a wolf" which sure as hell is not enough to actually prove that you _are _a wolf. Your identity is not valid because it isn't even something you can identify _as. _Someone can choose to identify as male or female, because those things are real. Someone can choose to identify as a lesbian or as a bisexual person, because Sexuality is something that we know exists in the human brain, we have already done countless studies and experiments on why people wanna have sex in the first place.
> 
> ...


You know what else is in the brain?


Spoiler



hate


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## Kit the fox (Nov 23, 2020)

Glycanthrope said:


> As a furry,  as a friend of the therian community, and as a as a writer of therian-themed fiction since 2015,
> I must have met a hundred self-identifying therians/otherkin.
> 
> I have found the therian subculture to be a highly diverse group (much like furries), when it comes to the individual's beliefs, experiences, and indeed,
> ...


And now you've met a Christian therian :3


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## Kit the fox (Nov 23, 2020)

Telnac said:


> Yeah the only Otherkin I've known have all essentially said that they're Species X trapped in a human body. They didn't freak out when someone identified them as human b/c they know that regardless of how they see themselves, others just see a human.


No you know a therian too ;3


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

I think there's something amiss with therians and otherkin. The ones I've met are usually kids who haven't been smacked by reality yet or are role-playing and experimenting with blurring reality and fiction, or they're delusional adults with mental disorders and/or difficulty coping with loneliness. I have yet to meet a therian or otherkin who was pleasant, sane, and socially competent. My interactions with them have been bizarre and uncomfortable 9 times out of 10.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> If that's what you believe then sure. I however believe spiritually I'm a dragon and it's very dear to me. I believe I'm here kinda like how an angel takes on a form of a human. And dragons pop up everywhere in the world almost as common as angels and demons. Believe me it isn't for attention.


I actually believe you, because this is the *first ever time* you've said anything about being an otherkin. You might be the only decent one I've ever met in my life.
I also 100% believe in dragons, like... you can't tell me people didn't AT LEAST get high and see a massive crocodile one time and think it breathed fire. AT LEAST. At most, I'm totally willing to believe in huge lizards who could spit combustible material and fly. It just doesn't seem that far fetched to me. I mean, we have the platypus.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> I do wonder why you go after otherkin if you identify as they/them when others just as easily say you're making stuff up.


It's much easier to say you're a non-binary human than it is to say you're a big ol' scaley dragon


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## Eremurus (Nov 24, 2020)

Mental illness, in a nutshell. There's really nothing else to say.

Therian. Sounds like a Star Trek race.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Still. People just as easily call you delusional for not being binary.


Very true. I get called deluded every day for being enby. But like... I don't give a fuck. I'm a human being who doesn't act like a traditional man or woman. That's all it is to me... I tell people that my pronouns are for their benefit. It's to help people adjust their expectations of me..
If they're expecting a woman, with a Coach bag and lipstick and a little black dress, who talks in a certain accent or tone of voice, then that's not me. At all.
If they're expecting a big brawny man in conservative men's clothing who likes sports and cars, that's also not me. At all.
I tell people I'm nonbinary because it helps prepare them mentally for who I really am. I want them to not be shocked or upset when they expect a lady who acts like a lady, or expect a man who's a man's man, and instead my androgynous little ass shows up in a captain's tail coat and a witch hat talking about biology and the history of disco.
I call myself nonbinary because I do not want to be held to standards and expectations of manliness or femininity that are not comfortable for me to stretch for. I just hate how demanding cis gender culture is. I prefer to be myself, be comfortable, and mind my own business.
I don't police other people's genders. I don't say someone isn't being ladylike or someone needs to "man up." I demand that level of respect be given back to me.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I guess I can sort of see where your coming from on the whole Hypocrisy thing if I put myself in your shoes and claim I'm a deer for a second, but the thing about Gender, Expression, and Otherkin is that the first two things are way more complicated, have had scientific research and evidence done on them to back up the people who claim they are that way, and has existed since forever.
> 
> People who say they are Otherkin have absolutely no evidence to back up their feelings other than just "I _feel _like I am a wolf" which sure as hell is not enough to actually prove that you _are _a wolf. Your identity is not valid because it isn't even something you can identify _as. _Someone can choose to identify as male or female, because those things are real. Someone can choose to identify as a lesbian or as a bisexual person, because Sexuality is something that we know exists in the human brain, we have already done countless studies and experiments on why people wanna have sex in the first place.
> 
> ...


Wait, I'm really interested to know how they proved that male and female are real. You mean real as far as roles and societal constructs? I'm nonbinary and I have questions. This is actually really thought-provoking for me right now.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> you aren't a dragon Mentally, Physically, _or _Spiritually. You are a human being.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Spirituality is a whole different ballgame. Spiritually, you can do whatever, because it's mostly a nebulous, dreamlike mental scenario. Like... you could be praying about how much you want a pet scorpion, and I'd never know that, because I can't read your mind. You could be having nightmares about fish eating your toenails. Whatever goofy shit. Spirituality can be anything. It's the realm of ideas and creativity.
Which is why it's weird to me that you're gonna die on this hill as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like someone says they believe in angels, and you go, "No you don't!" Like??? You can't tell someone else what they do and do not believe, in private, in their own mind.
You can prove that Ov is not physically a dragon, you can prove that it's delusional to believe one is a dragon, but you can't prove that someone isn't a dragon in their dreams and ideas. That's where I'm lost. Do you have a different interpretation of spirituality that I haven't heard of?


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> If you willing to read, he literally calling us crazy and in need of help. I mean... do i need to describe how this is an attack against a person?


Or it's a concerned and alarmed party asking folks to seek therapy. How is therapy an attack? I see a therapist, and she's nice!


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Night.Claw said:


> I'm not hurt. I just realized that you're the kind of person, who in a face to face conversation would start to rise their voice, or even turn physical. So it barely worth the words.
> 
> They helped my depression aggression issues and most of my anxiety problems. So i think i stay. Not to mention that they are covered by free healthcare.


That's a hell of an accusation!

For the record: I personally don't thrown hands unless I think the other person is out to do serious harm.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

MetalWolfBruh said:


> I can say trans people have severed my relationship with them in various ways, hurting me in a sense, in the end, adding to the stereotype, but I don't particularly think I have had any issues with otherkin, unless they were trans on top of that, and were keeping the otherkin part a secret. But, maybe Ovi and Thistle are both right about each other though, which led to this very discussion about beliefs that may not be true, and ended up hurting each other as a result of their "disorders", if I may call them that?


If you want to meet some nice trans folks, talk to me and I'll put you in touch. Two of my best friends are trans. One is a gentle soul who helps run a petting zoo and educational D&D campaigns for local children, and the other has been my twin brother from another mother since we were six years old.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Rimna said:


> I'm actually a concrete saucer in every way except physically, mentally and spiritually.


You're a WHAT? XD


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Axel_is_Crafty said:


> I don't really believe therians and otherkin(and I don't really understand non binary people either),but I've realised there isn't much point in arguing about it.It won't change anything,and starting arguments will just make stuff worse.
> We just have to agree to disagree,I guess.


Would you like to understand nonbinary people a little bit better?


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Can you give an example of people hurting themselves with that belief? I can think of only like one example and I can't tell if it's just a shitpost or not.


Well, there's always going to be the example of kids I grew up with. One kid went a little too far with his everyday dinosaur roleplay and bit another child, resulting in a reactionary smack to the face that made both parties cry. It's silly when you're a little kid, but when you grow up, and you haven't let go of the idea that you're really a dinosaur stuck in a human vessel, then it starts to become worrisome. It's not cute any more when Jimmy is refusing to wear clothes and is roaring at other students and biting people and refusing to use real words and bashes doors in at school to escape classes and go on T-Rex rampages.

My mother has multiple personality disorder, manic depression, schizophrenia, and a few other issues. She doesn't believe she's an animal, but sometimes she believes she's an angel. It's really scary when she's off her meds and slides into this heavenly host mindset, because she truly believes she's invincible. We have had to chase her across streets and fields and briars, which she for some reason skipped merrily around in buckass nekkid. We have also had to pick her up from various houses in the neighborhood, because she gets a sheet and lays in the lawns of strangers "waiting for God to take [her]" like a body at the morgue.
She also has voices in her head, and I guess they sometimes berate her or tell her jokes, because sometimes she'll look really sad or answer a question no one asked, and she'll chuckle when no one said or did anything funny. But I digress.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> I think the real problems are factkin that identify as another real human being. Like someone could claim to be Adele and tell everyone that's who they are. Basically they impersonate someone.


My mom used to believe she was Madonna! She would rent limousines and go downtown dressed as her (this was in the 80s) and some people actually believed my mom was Madonna, or a STELLAR impersonator, because I guess my mom was that spot-on. But it wasn't an act... she was having a mental breakdown.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> You're a WHAT? XD



It's like a plate but made of concrete


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## Liseran Thistle (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> Wait, I'm really interested to know how they proved that male and female are real. You mean real as far as roles and societal constructs? I'm nonbinary and I have questions. This is actually really thought-provoking for me right now.



Well, this was written a long time ago IDK why people are still replying to this thread, but anyway, in recent years scientists agree that there really is no such thing as "biologically" female or male. People aren't and never will be 100% of one or the other because that's just not how chromosomes work. You can be more female than you are male, be more male than you are female, have an equal amount of both attributes, the list goes on and on. People tend to think there's only one or the other because of the parts that dangle between everyone's legs, but the truth is that gender just doesn't work that way. We are all a hodgepodge of chromosomes and hormones just trying to make it through life. 

I remember when I first came across this thread I was absolutely offended that someone would want to try to equate Otherkin with gender expression just because they "feel" like they're an animal (or even a fictional character in some cases) because many Agender people like myself have to constantly deal with people saying my identity isn't real or that I can't just _not _be a man or a woman, I have to be either-or. And having Otherkin try to use the language _I _use to explain a very real issue with my gender so they can use it to explain why they're really a 1000-year-old dragon god, or why they're actually Zuko from Avatar, is insulting and does nothing but make setbacks for the progress Nonbinary people have been doing for years. 

We're at a point in time where other people are putting their pronouns in their bio to make others feel comfortable with their gender identity, and we certainly didn't get to that point with the Otherkin/Therian community. You can roleplay and pretend to be an animal on the internet all you want, but the minute you try to appropriate the language of actual pressed people for your own weird hyper fixation is when it becomes problematic. And that's what this Otherkin thing really is, a hyper fixation. There's nothing wrong with that, I hyper fixate on things as well, but I certainly never let it get to a point where I try to wiggle my way into a community I don't actually belong in.


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## Liseran Thistle (Nov 24, 2020)

And one other thing, while it's true people in the trans community and the Nonbinary community have used phrases like "I just _feel _like-" to explain why they want to transition or why they don't identify as something or nothing, most people in the community don't use phrasing like that anymore simply _because _there is more research to explain their identity to other people. Gender Dysphoria is real and is something most of these people experience. And they have gotten better at using and explaining this dysphoria better to other people. The only reason they even used those phrases in the first place was to appeal to cis-gendered people who they knew wouldn't accept them if they just told them "I am__ and you have to get used to it." because we hadn't reached that point yet where a person could claim what their pronouns were and a large number of people would respect them. Trying to use this whole defense of "Well the Trans/Nonbinary community used language like this before to explain their identity in the past so why can't I?" is yet just another example of how Otherkin and Therians use dated and old terminology from this community and draw setbacks for this community. 

You can be an Otherkin, again, but the moment you decide you want to try and "explain" away your Otherkin-ness as anything other than a Hyperfixation or coping mechanism, that is the moment you cause issues. The moment you try to claim your Otherkin-ness as your identity, is the moment everyone who made those "Attack helicopter" jokes wins, and I'm just not about to let that happen, that's for certain.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> My mom used to believe she was Madonna! She would rent limousines and go downtown dressed as her (this was in the 80s) and some people actually believed my mom was Madonna, or a STELLAR impersonator, because I guess my mom was that spot-on. But it wasn't an act... she was having a mental breakdown.



There's also the three christs of ypsilanti experiment, which kinda debunks the fact that one can 'snap' people who have a medical condition like that out of it by confronting them ruthlessly wiht reality.









						The Three Christs of Ypsilanti - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Mambi (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> I think there's something amiss with therians and otherkin. The ones I've met are usually kids who haven't been smacked by reality yet or are role-playing and experimenting with blurring reality and fiction, or they're delusional adults with mental disorders and/or difficulty coping with loneliness. I have yet to meet a therian or otherkin who was pleasant, sane, and socially competent. My interactions with them have been bizarre and uncomfortable 9 times out of 10.



I have 2 kids, I've lives several decades, I am *very *happy with my life, and I know _exactly _what I am inside and out, thank you very much! <_smiles and sticks toungue out at you while waving his claws> _I won't claim to be sane, but this cat is *far *from what you describe as typical for a "other-than-human" soul. If you go in expecting something bizzare and uncomfortable, odds are you'll get it simply because by definition, they *are* bizzare to you and odds are make you uncomfortable. That's just self-fuffiling prophecy! <giggle>


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## Glossolalia (Nov 24, 2020)

The whole therian/otherkin thing has always struck me as being in a similar vein to religion in general. Some people use it as a tool to better understand their world and live their lives in a way that feels meaningful to them, while still acknowledging that their view of reality is at best paradoxical. And then there are people who believe they literally hear God's voice speaking directly to them, telling them to do hateful things. I think that depending on someone's mental health and degree of self-awareness, it can be a useful thing or a bad thing.


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## Night.Claw (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> Or it's a concerned and alarmed party asking folks to seek therapy. How is therapy an attack? I see a therapist, and she's nice!





Zehlua said:


> That's a hell of an accusation!
> 
> For the record: I personally don't thrown hands unless I think the other person is out to do serious harm.


I have no interest in getting back into this chat, since it was a wasted cause by the beginning and also, i have no idea why was i pinged when it happened almost a year ago.
But this is the first time i see you here, so i might as well take a bit of time and answer.

So after this message, i should just poof for another few months as usually. These conversations doesn't worth the  time anymore, since they are almost always pointles back and forth chatfights with 0 to no outcome towards any understanding over the other persons side.

But seems like you took things as i was saying that to you, while it was pointed at and told to someone, who was just simply being a bum.

That "concerned and alarmed party" as you called it was literally, calling otherkins crazy and full of bullshit. Those otherkins could have been trans people easily. So i would rather not call it neighter concerned, nor alarmed. More like as i said, just being a bum. Next time that person might go after you, calling your choices of being non-binary a crazy bullshit, and tell you to go get theraphy for it and "get cured". Hopefully, that won't happen, but try to imagine yourself in that place, and rethink your message a bit.

Also, that was indeed an accusation i made against that person. An accusation based on the aggressive, pushy, rejecting and ignorant attitude they were showing and giving people in repeated occurances.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Mambi said:


> I have 2 kids, I've lives several decades, I am *very *happy with my life, and I know _exactly _what I am inside and out, thank you very much! <_smiles and sticks toungue out at you while waving his claws> _I won't claim to be sane, but this cat is *far *from what you describe as typical for a "other-than-human" soul. If you go in expecting something bizzare and uncomfortable, odds are you'll get it simply because by definition, they *are* bizzare to you and odds are make you uncomfortable. That's just self-fuffiling prophecy! <giggle>


Tbh I get a little weirded out by folks who use RP actions in every text or post... the blurred lines between reality and fiction are unsettling
I'm glad you're happy, I just don't vibe with you, and that's okay. Not everybody has to be bosom buddies with everybody. I got boundaries.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> There's also the three christs of ypsilanti experiment, which kinda debunks the fact that one can 'snap' people who have a medical condition like that out of it by confronting them ruthlessly wiht reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never heard of this before! Where did you find this?


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## Mambi (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> The moment you try to claim your Otherkin-ness as your identity, is the moment everyone who made those "Attack helicopter" jokes wins, and I'm just not about to let that happen, that's for certain.



Awww, but I LOVE the "attack helicopter" argument, because it's so easy to disprove! <_giggle_> 

Simply ask them to tell me how an attack helicopter feels. It's inanimate so it feels nothing, only the pilot feels anything. Therefore the helicopter has no spirit for them to relate to and they are wrong. OR they are projecting the pilot's emotions onto the inanimate object. 

Since neither of these 2 situations apply to otherkin, they are simply wrong and the 2 situations are not the same by definition. Easy!


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## Mambi (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> Tbh I get a little weirded out by folks who use RP actions in every text or post... the blurred lines between reality and fiction are unsettling
> I'm glad you're happy, I just don't vibe with you, and that's okay. Not everybody has to be bosom buddies with everybody. I got boundaries.



S'cool, you can be as weirded out as you wish, this place is very forgiving on weird, and we don't have to vibe at all! <_giggle_> Won't change anything in how I write because as you said, it IS fun and I am happy. Just showing you that your image of a typical otherkin is waaaay off. Never hurts to grow after all, and imagination can be a great thing...never let it go! _<he tosses a scented jingleball in the air with a wink and a smile, diving after it playfully as you ignore him and move on...> _


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## Guifrog (Nov 24, 2020)

The RP tags don't really bother me.. I know I may sometimes mix reality with fiction within my posts. There's just something very ribbiting about being a random blue anthro frog with occasional gibberish outbursts in a furry forum

Yet I do acknowledge that there's time and place for stuff. Don't really wanna croak at my translation clients unless I wanna lose my job


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## JuniperW (Nov 24, 2020)

I generally don't give a toss about that kind of thing as long as people don't let it have a negative impact on their lives. You'll see a lot of kids believing they're dragons or wolves - I mean, we all believe crazy things when we're young. For the longest time, I didn't exactly think I was fully human either, though I've grown out of it by now. It was taking a toll on my mental health and social life.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> I've never heard of this before! Where did you find this?



I've spent some time in forensic psychology lectures during my time at law school


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## Liseran Thistle (Nov 24, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Awww, but I LOVE the "attack helicopter" argument, because it's so easy to disprove! <_giggle_>
> 
> Simply ask them to tell me how an attack helicopter feels. It's inanimate so it feels nothing, only the pilot feels anything. Therefore the helicopter has no spirit for them to relate to and they are wrong. OR they are projecting the pilot's emotions onto the inanimate object.
> 
> Since neither of these 2 situations apply to otherkin, they are simply wrong and the 2 situations are not the same by definition. Easy!



I shouldn't have to further argue with dumb bigots just so you can feel special about pretending to be a cat. Some of us face actual genuine oppression and struggle in our lives, and you trying to muddy the waters by wriggling your fake identity into the midst of it all only helps people to further oppress me, and make it seem like I'm lying or just making up my Nonbinary expression for the purpose of internet points or to be cute.


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## Mambi (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I shouldn't have to further argue with dumb bigots just so you can feel special about pretending to be a cat. Some of us face actual genuine oppression and struggle in our lives, and you trying to muddy the waters by wriggling your fake identity into the midst of it all only helps people to further oppress me, and make it seem like I'm lying or just making up my Nonbinary expression for the purpose of internet points or to be cute.



Ummm, I'm not oppressed at all, nor am I calling anyone a liar nor oppressing anyone, and I'm not arguing anything at all. 
You can be as nonbinary as you want. I _am _confused in general now though, but that's _your _fault. <grin>


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## Liseran Thistle (Nov 24, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Ummm, I'm not oppressed at all, nor am I calling anyone a liar nor oppressing anyone, and I'm not arguing anything at all.
> You can be as nonbinary as you want. I _am _confused in general now though, but that's _your _fault. <grin>



Thanks for trying to gaslight me into thinking you weren't arguing when you clearly didn't jump into this with your dumb "but it's so easy to disprove that bigoted claim " response, but it's not going to work.

In simpler, easier to understand terms, the more people we have like you trying to use language by actually oppressed people, like me, the more cis-gendered people will have grounds to not accept anyone who is different than them in terms of sex or gender at all. I don't know what you possibly don't understand by that, It was very straight forward. 

You aren't a cat, your identity isn't valid, and you should stop trying to explain it using the way nonbinary and trans people explain their identity because you're causing more harm than good. I have actual evidence and science to back up why I am Agender, but you only have "I just feel like an animal" as your reasoning why and guess what? That's not good enough, and all it does is just make the rest of us look weird and crazy for even identifying as anything other than a man or a woman. 

The last time I was in this thread, you were _very _transphobic in the way you spoke, like you were alluding to the fact that trans people really _are _just saying they are trans because they "feel that way" and as if they hadn't had actual verifiable proof of their condition or dysphoria. Because of this, I stopped responding to this thread entirely, but I see now you are still the same way. Nobody who actually cares about trans or nonbinary people would jeopardize or aid in the destruction of the progress they have made throughout the years just for their own, selfish needs. We shouldn't _have _to argue with bigots about attack helicopter jokes anymore because of people like you appropriating language that just doesn't apply to you at all.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 24, 2020)

So like, I slept with a tiger themed paw-glove on last night with my arm around my big fox-plush and like, it was really comfortable and I found myself pawing at my big fox-plush and I might have purred once or twice. Does this mean I'm therian/ otherkin, way to in touch with my furry side or just horny? I am conflicted about this as I am also burgerkin. Can the two coexist?


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## Liseran Thistle (Nov 24, 2020)

Only thing this thread has done is reminded me why I will never fully be comfortable with people who are Otherkin, because they keep trying to "Rachel Dolezal" there way into a community they don't belong in, and just impede progress by pretending their identity is valid with old outdated terminology.


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## ben909 (Nov 24, 2020)

i will admit to not reading all the comments in this thread, but thought this point i saw before might be interesting

but it did remind me of an argument i read on DA(i was not part of it, just read the 2 sides image/stamp/post things),  that person had a problem with people who say they are <some otherkin group> and then go on and on about how bad humanity is, and basically are just trying to convince themselves that they are in a different grouping and thus are not part of the problem. 

... its rarely the case though so its almost always fine 

-----------------
as long as its short of that, i am ok with it


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## VeeStars (Nov 24, 2020)

While I might personally not believe that humans can have animal spirits, I shouldn't judge others for believing it. I don't see therians/otherkin as harmful, so they can keep doing their thing and I can do mine. ^w^


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 24, 2020)

Hogwash! All the diversity is what makes this community so great! I could never imagine being a part of something for so long that only orientates around one ideology, that would get stale super fast.

Personally I don't care what someone thinks they or what sort of background they come from, as long as they're a good person I could care less...


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Mambi said:


> Ummm, I'm not oppressed at all, nor am I calling anyone a liar nor oppressing anyone, and I'm not arguing anything at all.
> You can be as nonbinary as you want. I _am _confused in general now though, but that's _your _fault. <grin>





Liseran Thistle said:


> I shouldn't have to further argue with dumb bigots just so you can feel special about pretending to be a cat. Some of us face actual genuine oppression and struggle in our lives, and you trying to muddy the waters by wriggling your fake identity into the midst of it all only helps people to further oppress me, and make it seem like I'm lying or just making up my Nonbinary expression for the purpose of internet points or to be cute.


I'm also nonbinary, and I don't see any bigotry here. If anything, I'm reconsidering my stances on otherkin and whatnot. Additionally, I've never had anyone legitimately use the attack helicopter shit against me, or anything of that nature. If it does happen, I actually WOULD bring up what Mambi did. Mambi has a good point about all that. I don't vibe with therian stuff, but I don't want to be mean to people, either, especially when they're being rather civil under the circumstances. I'd rather be kind, helpful, and educational, and if I'm feeling heated, I need to take a break or sleep on it before responding. 

When Mambi and Ovi made it clear that their otherkin-ness is a method of attitude and expression, and not a full-on belief that they're a housecat or 20 foot tall dragon, then I understood their connection to gender. What is gender, but an attitude and expression? A representation of who we are? While spiritual connection to an animal is decidedly NOT gender, I can see it existing in the same realm.

I am a Native American from the Pacific Northwest, and I feel I need to bring our Old Ways into this discussion. My people recognize 4 as a sacred number (the medicine wheel has 4 cardinal directions, 4 stages of life, 4 holy herbs, and 4 colours) and most Indigenous American cultures recognize 4 sacred genders: male, female, both (sometimes called two-spirit), and neither. My people were very open to lesbians, gays, transgender folks, genderfluid folks, and agender folks. If you weren't a cis male or cis female, it was more likely that you'd be a shaman. Shamans in our tribe were medicine people, and medicine people were not just healers of physical body ailments. They typically showed signs of anxiety, depression, and autism, and has an artistic streak. To make music was medicine. To smelt and smith copper into new shapes was medicine. To tell stories, keep watch at night, interpret dreams, make visual art... all medicine. 
An important thing that shamans did for my people was commune with animals and pay close attention to the signs of nature, and teach the rest of the tribe how to notice these things. Spirit animals come into play, because a shaman often had dreams where animals from the Dream Times and the Spirit Realm would visit them and give them important information. I myself am visited rarely by three spirit animals; Mother Coyote, Daughter Coyote, and Fox.
It should be noted that you do not choose your spirit animal or animals; they choose you. I was hoping for a bat or a seahorse, as those are my two favourite animals. But I am not complaining!

Spirituality is a very broad and nebulous thing. 
Gender, in some ways, is equally nebulous.
As long as the people who identify closely with animals aren't acting like my mother and running out into the street endangering themselves and others with their delusions, I think we're alright.
I know a genuine, bona fide nutcase when I see one, and although I'm still uncomfortable with RP-speak being used in a non-RP discussion, I really don't have an issue. Mambi and company seem happy and healthy and have very active imaginations. And they're in therapy, from what I've read. So what we gon' do, continue berating them and being mean when they've already decided their paths?

Though obviously sideways and oddball, I don't see much harm being done by these people. They can function in society and show empathy and consideration, from what I can gather. Plus, I've actually learned some interesting things in this thread that made me pause for thought. Most of my concerns have been pretty well addressed. I didn't expect to have a good time in an otherkin/therian thread, but here we are XD


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Thanks for trying to gaslight me into thinking you weren't arguing when you clearly didn't jump into this with your dumb "but it's so easy to disprove that bigoted claim " response, but it's not going to work.
> 
> In simpler, easier to understand terms, the more people we have like you trying to use language by actually oppressed people, like me, the more cis-gendered people will have grounds to not accept anyone who is different than them in terms of sex or gender at all. I don't know what you possibly don't understand by that, It was very straight forward.
> 
> ...


This is probably a bad idea responding to this but dysphoria is all in the mind. I'm trans and otherkin. I have gender and species dysphoria. And yes. It is all in your head as it is in mine as well. I would like to see the studies where agender was confirmed to exist.


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## Glossolalia (Nov 24, 2020)

I've seen transphobes use otherkin/therians as sort of a conceptual weapon against the validity of trans people's identities, but that's on the transphobes, not on the otherkin/therians. Their existence doesn't invalidate mine.


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## ben909 (Nov 24, 2020)

One thing i think i should add after my other comment, even if some people use the label “badly” or have problem like the involved shapeshifter in the first queston. They are probably not the majorty of people that use the label or fit the group, so its wrong to think negatively at all the individuals  


——————————-

Personally  thought, i dislike the concept of all these labels and groupings and how they are sometimes applied


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> This is probably a bad idea responding to this but dysphoria is all in the mind. I'm trans and otherkin. I have gender and species dysphoria. And yes. It is all in your head as it is in mine as well. I would like to see the studies where agender was confirmed to exist.


I mean, in my personal studies of indigenous genders, agender simply meant you did your own thing apart from femininity and masculinity. You would be addressed as Human, not Man or Woman. It was apparent you were a human, but you were clearly not in line with any femme or masc qualities or associated activities and such. The direct opposite would be a two-spirit, who did manly things and womanly things deliberately, and expressed that they were flowing between the two or gathering them together within themself.
Gender wasn't something my tribe gave much of a shit about. "Coming out" for us was as easy as, "Hey, I have discovered that I am not a man, but a woman, and if you'd like to give me a new name to suit me better, that would be nice" (you cannot pick your own name in my culture, it's given to you by your community) So thereafter, word would get around, and the trans woman wouldn't have any hassle or misgendering.
Presenting as the opposite sex wasn't something that was common, from what I understand. If you wanted breasts, you can make them into your clothes, but that would be it. And there would be no pressure to do so. The only pressure would be to not use too much dog wool, because winter is cold af up here, and other people need clothes too XD
"We all squat to shit and stand to piss," was a thing. It didn't matter what you had between your legs. Sex was more spiritual than physical to us anyway.
That's just my two cents on the matter.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 24, 2020)

ben909 said:


> One thing i think i should add after my other comment, even if some people use the label “badly” or have problem like the involved shapeshifter in the first queston. They are probably not the majorty of people that use the label or fit the group, so its wrong to think negatively at all the individuals
> 
> 
> ——————————-
> ...


Labels are good because they help people distinguish between different features. Imagine if dogs and cats were just grouped as "dats". If that was the only word for those two things then you can't distinguish one from the other.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> I mean, in my personal studies of indigenous genders, agender simply meant you did your own thing apart from femininity and masculinity. You would be addressed as Human, not Man or Woman. It was apparent you were a human, but you were clearly not in line with any femme or masc qualities or associated activities and such. The direct opposite would be a two-spirit, who did manly things and womanly things deliberately, and expressed that they were flowing between the two or gathering them together within themself.
> Gender wasn't something my tribe gave much of a shit about. "Coming out" for us was as easy as, "Hey, I have discovered that I am not a man, but a woman, and if you'd like to give me a new name to suit me better, that would be nice" (you cannot pick your own name in my culture, it's given to you by your community) So thereafter, word would get around, and the trans woman wouldn't have any hassle or misgendering.
> Presenting as the opposite sex wasn't something that was common, from what I understand. If you wanted breasts, you can make them into your clothes, but that would be it. And there would be no pressure to do so. The only pressure would be to not use too much dog wool, because winter is cold af up here, and other people need clothes too XD
> "We all squat to shit and stand to piss," was a thing. It didn't matter what you had between your legs. Sex was more spiritual than physical to us anyway.
> That's just my two cents on the matter.


I'm not saying agender doesn't exist. I was just saying there's as much evidence for it as there is otherkin.


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## ben909 (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Labels are good because they help people distinguish between different features. Imagine if dogs and cats were just grouped as "dats". If that was the only word for those two things then you can't distinguish one from the other.


True, but when does it become like arguing about if furries and scaleies(spelling) should be the same or different when all thateally sets them apart is if the creature they choose has fur or not

In my view making too many labels puts barriers between people that don’t need to be there


For the difference between cats and dogs, that is within a larger system, so you can always say mammals to adress a large group, or any of the othe sub classes, so they all remain connected

(Sorry if there are typos i missed i am tired)


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## VeeStars (Nov 24, 2020)

Labels are labels. Use whatever labels fit you, or don't use any at all, it's up to you. I currently feel like the best label for my gender at this given moment is gender-fluid. You do you ^w^


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 24, 2020)

ben909 said:


> True, but when does it become like arguing about if furries and scaleies(spelling) should be the same or different when all thateally sets them apart is if the creature they choose has fur or not
> 
> In my view making too many labels puts barriers between people that don’t need to be there
> 
> ...


Okay then what about different colors of labs? We need labels to identify things no matter how miniscule the difference. It isn't a bad thing.


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## VeeStars (Nov 24, 2020)

ben909 said:


> True, but when does it become like arguing about if furries and scaleies(spelling) should be the same or different when all thateally sets them apart is if the creature they choose has fur or not
> 
> In my view making too many labels puts barriers between people that don’t need to be there
> 
> ...


I wouldn't think of more labels as barriers they are just more specific. Gender-fluid folks, like myself, are a subgroup of transgender (or at least IMO), but if I just said I was trans, you wouldn't really know the nuances.


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## Zehlua (Nov 24, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> I'm not saying agender doesn't exist. I was just saying there's as much evidence for it as there is otherkin.


I agree somewhat! I think there should be more research done into both, and I will say that, to my knowledge currently, there are more documented cases of agender people in pre-colonial times as opposed to those who believe they are animals. But I could be wrong! And who's to say there aren't a boatload of documented cases of both in modern times that we aren't yet aware of?


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## Mambi (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Thanks for trying to gaslight me into thinking you weren't arguing when you clearly didn't jump into this with your dumb "but it's so easy to disprove that bigoted claim " response, but it's not going to work.
> 
> The last time I was in this thread, you were _very _transphobic in the way you spoke, like you were alluding to the fact that trans people really _are _just saying they are trans because they "feel that way" and as if they hadn't had actual verifiable proof of their condition or dysphoria.



ME??? Are you *sure *you're thinking of the same cat? You know, some black cats actually *do *look alike...

Seriously though, I honestly think you have me confused with someone else...I'm not trans-phobic in the slightest and definitely wouldn't say they aren't who they are inside. Honest, I really don't know what you're referring to originally!!! And unless I'm mistaken...aren't we talking about otherkins anyway? At least that's what* I'm* talking about...y'all, not so sure anymore. <_crosses eyes confused> _


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## Attaman (Nov 24, 2020)

As somebody who once was a "lul Otherkin" (and, a few years before that, "lul Therian" too), I would be remiss not to point out:
1) That it was colossal prat behavior by myself, fully deserving of a no-strings-attached apology (which I would like this statement to qualify as, but can get more thorough / nitty-gritty with if so desired later / in a more appropriate thread)...
and equally / arguably more important
2) There is a _*ton*_ of overlap in a lot of the arguments used against Otherkin / Therians and the arguments used against Trans individuals. This is not to conflate the two as being different sides of a singular coin or equally acknowledged / footed or any of that, or to directly compare what is in many regards a _*faith*_ with _*personal identity, orientation, et al,*_ or even to suggest that those who engage in one (the riffing on Therians / Otherkin) must _*also*_ be an absolute prat with the other. Merely to point out that if one drew a circle for rhetoric used against each and overlapped them where they... well, overlap / coincide, you might not get a perfect circle but it'd definitely be closer to one defined sphere than two distinct ones.

One should _very_ much keep an eye out for examples like Mr. Black Raptor (is that a reference too old for a lot of the people here? Gods that was already twelve years ago), but it'd... probably be for the best to both avoid digging in too hard (just like there's a difference between, say, light-hearted jabs at your friend who quite literally religiously goes to church every Sunday... and basically being peak Enlightened Atheist(TM) in their company) and throwing out chaff for people who'd use the ribs to start normalizing / slipping in such rhetoric for collateral / AoE.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 24, 2020)

Mr. Fox said:


> Hogwash! All the diversity is what makes this community so great! I could never imagine being a part of something for so long that only orientates around one ideology, that would get stale super fast.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 24, 2020)

Liseran Thistle said:


> You aren't a cat, your identity isn't valid, and you should stop trying to explain it using the way nonbinary and trans people explain their identity because you're causing more harm than good. I have actual evidence and science to back up why I am Agender, but you only have "I just feel like an animal" as your reasoning why and guess what? That's not good enough, and all it does is just make the rest of us look weird and crazy for even identifying as anything other than a man or a woman.



"Move aside stupid cat larper, my existential anguish is more important than yours."


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 24, 2020)

ASTA said:


>


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## Meta_Tiara (Nov 24, 2020)

I’m cool with otherkin.


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## Kit the fox (Nov 24, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> I think there's something amiss with therians and otherkin. The ones I've met are usually kids who haven't been smacked by reality yet or are role-playing and experimenting with blurring reality and fiction, or they're delusional adults with mental disorders and/or difficulty coping with loneliness. I have yet to meet a therian or otherkin who was pleasant, sane, and socially competent. My interactions with them have been bizarre and uncomfortable 9 times out of 10.


I'm not sure if (as a therian) a am insulted or relived


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 25, 2020)

I think I found Mambi enjoying classical music.






						- YouTube
					

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




					www.youtube.com


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## Deleted member 134556 (Nov 25, 2020)

I forgot whether or not I replied here, but I have no problem with otherkin. They are people who want to socialize and make friends just like the rest of us, and even if they seem odd to some, they still deserve the same respect considering they aren't harming anyone. Also, we are furries, so we should definitely be more understanding of therians and otherkin, considering there is some overlap in both groups.

This is just my personal opinion the the subject.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Nov 25, 2020)

The amount of hip, buzzwords here is staggering.

Anyway I am no longer a concrete saucer.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 25, 2020)

The thread is rather all over the place. I've expressed many times over that I personally have no problems with otherkins or therians. Out of most people in the fandom they are less likely to hurt others.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Nov 25, 2020)

Mr. Fox said:


> The thread is rather all over the place. I've expressed many times over that I personally have no problems with otherkins or therians. Out of most people in the fandom they are less likely to hurt others.


No way, a wolf or a lion or a tiger or a dragon is very likely to want to eat some delicious humans. 
There was a guy in Hannibal Season 3 who was a dragon otherkin, and he was quite good at killing and eating people. I fear for my life.


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## Zehlua (Nov 26, 2020)

Rimna said:


> No way, a wolf or a lion or a tiger or a dragon is very likely to want to eat some delicious humans.
> There was a guy in Hannibal Season 3 who was a dragon otherkin, and he was quite good at killing and eating people. I fear for my life.


Yeah, but that's fiction? Sensationalized fiction for horror? The movie Split depicted a man with a scary form of DID/MPD, doesn't mean everybody with DID/MPD are murderers. My mother has at least 5 different personalities, all with different handwriting, and several delusions about who she is (an angel, Jesus, a little girl, Madonna, etc.) At no point did my mother become a murderer. The worst thing she ever did was attack her reflection in a window with a soup ladle and smash the glass, because she was having a scary hallucination that her reflection was trying to hurt her. When she's on her medication and lithium injections, she's almost normal. But she'd never commit murder.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Nov 26, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> Yeah, but that's fiction? Sensationalized fiction for horror? The movie Split depicted a man with a scary form of DID/MPD, doesn't mean everybody with DID/MPD are murderers. My mother has at least 5 different personalities, all with different handwriting, and several delusions about who she is (an angel, Jesus, a little girl, Madonna, etc.) At no point did my mother become a murderer. The worst thing she ever did was attack her reflection in a window with a soup ladle and smash the glass, because she was having a scary hallucination that her reflection was trying to hurt her. When she's on her medication and lithium injections, she's almost normal. But she'd never commit murder.


He was probably just joking in that post, actually. The cliché phrase "I fear for my life" was the icing on the cake X3


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## Deleted member 111470 (Nov 26, 2020)

Zehlua said:


> Yeah, but that's fiction? Sensationalized fiction for horror? The movie Split depicted a man with a scary form of DID/MPD, doesn't mean everybody with DID/MPD are murderers. My mother has at least 5 different personalities, all with different handwriting, and several delusions about who she is (an angel, Jesus, a little girl, Madonna, etc.) At no point did my mother become a murderer. The worst thing she ever did was attack her reflection in a window with a soup ladle and smash the glass, because she was having a scary hallucination that her reflection was trying to hurt her. When she's on her medication and lithium injections, she's almost normal. But she'd never commit murder.


My response wasn't serious. Generally, I almost never get into serious discussions on the forums.


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## Zehlua (Nov 26, 2020)

Rimna said:


> My response wasn't serious. Generally, I almost never get into serious discussions on the forums.


Ah. Gotcha


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## MrSpookyBoots (Nov 26, 2020)

No opinion. As long as they aren't causing harm, let people be happy.


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## that_darn_furry (Nov 29, 2020)

Ain't my business what other people identify or feel comfortable labeling themselves as. They aren't causing harm to anyone, then let 'em be. I don't understand it personally, but it's not my job to understand, it's just my job to treat others kindly.


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## ☆Crow☆ (Nov 30, 2020)

I'm a therian/otherkin, and I'm generally chill about it! In the community it's generally either a spiritual or psychological thing, depending on the person? For me it's a spiritual thing, as I believe in reincarnation, as well as the multiverse theory (not in the most scientific context, but yeah). 

For OP, it sounds like you met a... real jerk? I've been in the community for a good few years now, and I haven't met anyone like that (...so far).

Also, if anyone's interested: here's where the term "otherkin" came from! The first official group was elfkin, the 'kin' part meaning that their identity was related to elves. After other groups started popping up, with other mythological creatures, and real animals, the elfkin called them "otherkin", as they were not elves, but still shared similar traits.

So, yeah! There's some neat details


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