# Tactics: Let's Conquer a Planet



## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Not at all a copy of another thread on a different forum. Really, I'm changing things. Credit to foamy for the original idea and quite a few numbers.

Mods: I put this in Off Topic because it actually gets traffic and this thread is more of a scenario than a game. If you want to move it, though, that's fine.

In the not so distant future (2060), Humanity has reached for the stars and found emptiness. We never quite got to singularity, and in fact hit a plateau in our technological development. Biological immortality, mind copying and digital sentient life, advanced expert systems, regular cloning, fairly easy intrasystem travel, fusion, and carbon nanotubes are all mature technologies. 

In this future, a large observatory finds a system thousands of lightyears away. This system has a planet with life. You are the brave crew of uploaded consciousnesses sent on the mission to explore this strange phenomena.

Your ship is big, massing around ten million metric tonnes. You carry another 1.13 Gtne of liquid deuterium. Your fusion torch has an exhaust velocity of .04c, with a mass flow rate of just under 60tne/second. You have a Buzzard ramscoop and a quick scoopship for refueling from the gas giants insystem. Your total delta-v is about 56,800km/s, although after you decel you'll only have a bit of that left. Enough for some insystem maneuvering, though not much. You have a high powered comm laser, 20 nuclear missiles that are MIRVed with 10 500kt warheads, and advanced biotechnology labs. You have survey probes and longer range probes with the equivalent of VASMIR drives. 

Your laser can cause plasma explosions and shockwaves at about half a light second in steel. At ten light seconds, you can go through steel at about 67cm/s. 

Your cargo includes two large VNs designed to be set up on bodies about the size of Ceres or larger. You also have two smaller VNs designed to work on asteroids. 

The system has one star. There are two small rocky planets, and then a gas giant. The gas giant is just outside of the Goldilocks zone, on the sunward side. Then there is the planet with life, which is about the size of Earth. There is a large asteroid belt after that, outside of the Goldilocks zone, followed by two more gas giants and then another large belt of iceteroids and small rocky dwarf planets. 

You left fifty thousand years ago. It is about thirty years prior to your decel burn, which will take about 30 days and bring you to a crash stop from .1c. You just picked up radio signals from the fourth planet. 

What do you do?

Decision making in this thread will be done by consensus of those involved. Majority rules, no exceptions. Everyone is in the same boat, here.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 28, 2010)




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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

I wonder where the idea came from...

If we left 50,000 years ago, first thing I'd suggest doing is looking to see if any descendants of ours who managed to reach .2C or better within the 50,000 years we left. A slight speed boost within 500 years means we could meet our descendants there.

One key thing to do might be to try getting a good look at the planet with our telescopic gear.

EDIT:  Oh yeah, and turn the ship right back around if we spot Ewoks on the surface.  No good can come from such an encounter.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> If we left 50,000 years ago, first thing I'd suggest doing is looking to see if any descendants of ours who managed to reach .2C or better within the 50,000 years we left. A slight speed boost within 500 years means we could meet our descendants there.


That is a good point.
Honestly I'd take in any and all new technology if they aren't.
I'd establish humans as a independent sovereign nation and have it like how china makes our shit and the human nation would be america.  To give an analogy.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> If we left 50,000 years ago, first thing I'd suggest doing is looking to see if any descendants of ours who managed to reach .2C or better within the 50,000 years we left. A slight speed boost within 500 years means we could meet our descendants there.



You would have seen any other ships deceling insystem. You haven't seen  that, meaning that you are the only ones here, unless they did it behind  the sun. 



Attaman said:


> One key thing to do might be to try getting a good look at the planet with our telescopic gear.



I'll post a map once I make one. The surface seems to have large cities, concentrated around rivers and the coastlines. You can't make out much more with your current equipment at this range, though.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> That is a good point.
> Honestly I'd take in any and all new technology if they aren't.
> I'd establish humans as a independent sovereign nation and have it like how china makes our shit and the human nation would be america.  To give an analogy.


  We'd crash their economy in short-order by offering them fantastical goods they have no hope of reproducing at fantastical prices they can't match?

Or would we just put lead into everything and reap the spoils of their planet?


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You would have seen any other ships deceling insystem. You haven't seen  that, meaning that you are the only ones here, unless they did it behind  the sun.


  Look to the sun for incoming black dots?



Vikar said:


> I'll post a map once I make one. The surface seems to have large cities, concentrated around rivers and the coastlines. You can't make out much more with your current equipment at this range, though.


One thing to do will be search for signs of atomics and atomic warfare:  If I got booted up into an AI, I don't want them trying to pull a reverse-Skynet on us.  Provided there is a them.

If we see no signs of nuclear / atomic warfare from afar, that'll at least warn us they aren't trigger happy at WWII tech level or higher.  They could still be post-WWII or trigger happy, but it's unlikely they're both.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> We'd crash their economy in short-order by offering them fantastical goods they have no hope of reproducing at fantastical prices they can't match?
> 
> Or would we just put lead into everything and reap the spoils of their planet?


Both, it would be the most efficient option.  By the time their technology catches up to us, we'll be established as the most powerful nation and would stay that way for a long while.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> Both, it would be the most efficient option.  By the time their technology catches up to us, we'll be established as the most powerful nation and would stay that way.



We took 50,000 years to reach them, Cannonfodder.  If they were even our equivalent of 23,000BCE tech level when we left and developed half as quickly as we (Humans, not AI's) did, they'd be only about 60-ish-120 years behind us, tops.  

Don't think AIDS-blankets will work either.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Look to the sun for incoming black dots?



You don't see anything abnormal.



Attaman said:


> One thing to do will be search for signs of atomics and atomic warfare:  If I got booted up into an AI, I don't want them trying to pull a reverse-Skynet on us.  Provided there is a them.
> 
> If we see no signs of nuclear / atomic warfare from afar, that'll at least warn us they aren't trigger happy at WWII tech level or higher.  They could still be post-WWII or trigger happy, but it's unlikely they're both.



Again, your information will be a bit spotty, but you don't see any signs of atomics on the surface.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Vikar said:


> The surface seems to have large cities,



Time to leave.

First we take a tally of what we would need to remain in orbit around the planet for an indeterminate amount of time while we observe and conduct research off of the surface. If we're feeling really ballsy we could maybe obtain a DNA sample of the locals and, after observing their culture extensively, do the Avatar thing and clone a body.

Since we're downloads anyway we just copy ourselves and save the copy onto the empty xenobiotic clone. Let's call him Browder.2. Browder.2 will have all the memories of the Browder in the spaceship so it'll be easy for him to file reports in a comprehensible manner once he infiltrates the society and conducts cultural reconnaissance. Only if we're feeling ballsy, though. Don't want to screw up the development of sapient and sentient life.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Browder said:


> Time to leave.


  C'mon, it'll be war of the worlds Mk II except this time we lack biological bodies so we can't be beaten by a crummy ol' bio-virus.



Browder said:


> First we take a tally of what we would need to remain in orbit around the planet for an indeterminate amount of time while we observe and conduct research off of the surface. If we're feeling really ballsy we could maybe obtain a DNA sample of the locals and, after observing their culture extensively, do the Avatar thing and clone a body.


  If we're skilled enough to take DNA samples and make Avatar-clone-thingeys en-masse, couldn't we probably just tailor a virus to wipe out the natives?  Use the excessive energy of our drive system to fry the atmosphere?

The big thing we want to look out for is big cities that're near as advanced as the ones we lived in as we left, or more advanced.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> C'mon, it'll be war of the worlds Mk II except this time we lack biological bodies so we can't be beaten by a crummy ol' bio-virus.
> 
> If we're skilled enough to take DNA samples and make Avatar-clone-thingeys en-masse, couldn't we probably just tailor a virus to wipe out the natives?  Use the excessive energy of our drive system to fry the atmosphere?
> 
> The big thing we want to look out for is big cities that're near as advanced as the ones we lived in as we left, or more advanced.



In this scenario I'm assuming I'd still have, I dunno, _morals_. Call me a buzz kill but if there's intelligent life then our job is to observe and report. No viruses. >:[


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## CannonFodder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> We took 50,000 years to reach them, Cannonfodder.  If they were even our equivalent of 23,000BCE tech level when we left and developed half as quickly as we (Humans, not AI's) did, they'd be only about 60-ish-120 years behind us, tops.
> 
> Don't think AIDS-blankets will work either.


I play ridiculous amounts of galaxy conquering games, pretty much the best two options are either destroying every last one or assimilating them.
Just conquering would cause to many problems later on, rebellion etc, war would be to costly cause it always it.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> The big thing we want to look out for is big cities that're near as advanced as the ones we lived in as we left, or more advanced.



The cities have clouds of dust over them nearly constantly. It is quite possible that they use coal and wood as their primary fuel source.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Browder said:


> In this scenario I'm assuming I'd still have, I dunno, _morals_. Call me a buzz kill but if there's intelligent life then our job is to observe and report. No viruses. >:[


  Aw, but it's fun being rogue AI's.

... Fine, no bio-weapons beyond certain lethality levels. 

An important thing is learning their general tech level, though.  We don't want to get slapped with a half-dozen EMP's upon landing, nor do we want to freak out a bunch of cave-jellyfish with our rain from the heavens.



CannonFodder said:


> I play ridiculous amounts of galaxy conquering games, pretty much the best two options are either destroying every last one or assimilating them.
> Just conquering would cause to many problems later on, rebellion etc, war would be to costly cause it always it.


But... what if we're the baddies?

EDIT:  





Vikar said:


> The cities have clouds of dust over them nearly constantly. It is quite possible that they use coal and wood as their primary fuel source.


Implies Industrialism Era, though it could very well be up to nigh-modern eras too for some cities.  Industrialism is pretty decent for us, though:  Means we have a good couple centuries tech advantage, and our orbital superiority won't be questioned for some time.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> An important thing is learning their general tech level, though.  We don't want to get slapped with a half-dozen EMP's upon landing, nor do we want to freak out a bunch of cave-jellyfish with our rain from the heavens.



You can harden against EMP, and your electronics are optical in many cases.


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## Seas (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm sure that technologically advanced and resource-filled big ship has some method of redirecting some asteroids from the asteroid belt towards specified pats of the planet if needed.
Just pointing it out in case we would need more than those 200 pieces of nuclear warheads that have the blast yield 30 times the Hiroshima bomb, each.

The real question is, in what state will we need the planet. That is what will affect the strategy the most.


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## CannonFodder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> But... what if we're the baddies?


It costs to much money to be the baddies, if their tech is within 100years of ours it would be extremely expensive, less advanced you would still have to pay for the nukes or neutronbombs and any quick fix would total everything along with them.
tl;dr war and genocide costs much.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> It costs to much money to be the baddies, if their tech is within 100years of ours it would be extremely expensive, less advanced you would still have to pay for the nukes or neutronbombs and any quick fix would total everything along with them.
> tl;dr war and genocide costs much.



So we don't do it.

From our observations we're assuming industrial era right? Unfortunately with our observational situation it's hard to tell. Does this ship have a cloaking device and can we send out drones so we have a better idea of what we're dealing with?


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Contact the locals and ask whether they're communists or not. If they are, bomb them to hell and back. If they're not, obliterate their moon or nearest planet or something equally noticeable (their largest city?) to establish dominance and show 'em we mean business. Then begin diplomatic talks.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> Contact the locals and ask whether they're communists or not. If they are, bomb them to hell and back. If they're not, obliterate their moon or nearest planet or something equally noticeable (their largest city?) to establish dominance and show 'em we mean business. Then begin talks about your new position as planet conqueror.



Yeah, no. We don't do this for the same reason we wouldn't have wanted this done to us in our Industrial Revolution. They have the right to determine their own politics and their own lives. They might not even think like humans either. Communism could actually *gasp* _work_.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

CannonFodder said:


> It costs to much money to be the baddies, if their tech is within 100years of ours it would be extremely expensive, less advanced you would still have to pay for the nukes or neutronbombs and any quick fix would total everything along with them.
> tl;dr war and genocide costs much.



Rocks aren't are free?

Cloaking shouldn't be too difficult, depending on the planet's tech level.  You just need to match the inter-stellar backdrop.  Heck, if you had a sufficiently bright light on the bottom you could possibly hide dead in front of their star and none would notice you so long as you kept pointing the light properly.

Oh, yeah, and:  I just realized I worked under the assumption the aliens would break away from Industrialism like we did.  Not, y'know, throw bodies onto the fire to burn it a few more minutes and turn the planet into a massive forge-world.  That mistake could be costly.


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Browder said:


> Yeah, no. We don't do this for the same reason we  wouldn't have wanted this done to us in our Industrial Revolution. They  have the right to determine their own politics and their own lives.  They might not even think like humans either. Communism could actually  *gasp* _work_.


Yeah but they would still be dirty commies and we would still be immortal robotic nuclear death. I don't see the problem with my plan, and suggest we enforce it.
EDIT: I suggest we name our 20 main nuclear warheads "McCarthy" one through ten and "Hoover" one through ten.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> Yeah but they would still be dirty commies and we would still be immortal robotic nuclear death. I don't see the problem with my plan, and suggest we enforce it.



You need a majority. I vote against, because I'm not out to be a dick. Anyone with me?


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Browder said:


> So we don't do it.
> 
> From our observations we're assuming industrial era right? Unfortunately with our observational situation it's hard to tell. Does this ship have a cloaking device and can we send out drones so we have a better idea of what we're dealing with?



You can send some advanced probes. They will arrive about three months before you do. This is a hard science universe, so no cloaking devices. Although you could wait to decel behind the sun and hide from the planet.



Corto said:


> Contact the locals and ask whether they're communists or not. If they are, bomb them to hell and back. If they're not, obliterate their moon or nearest planet or something equally noticeable (their largest city?) to establish dominance and show 'em we mean business. Then begin diplomatic talks.



Back at Sol, your economy was nearly post-scarcity. You are communists.

Page 2! This thread is going places.


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## south syde dobe (Apr 28, 2010)

I'd send Kenpachi and he'd destroy whatever he meets...problem solved


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Well fuck me, backup plan then.
We ask them if they're fascist dogs, and continue with the plan as established. Name our warheads the "Lenin" one through ten and "Marx" one through ten.

EDIT: Can our laser weaponry carve a giant hammer and sickle on their moon?


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You can send some advanced probes. They will arrive about three months before you do. This is a hard science universe, so no cloaking devices. Although you could wait to decel behind the sun and hide from the planet.


Let's do that then? Anyone with me?



Vikar said:


> Back at Sol, your economy was nearly post-scarcity. You are communists.



Heh.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> EDIT: I suggest we name our 20 main nuclear warheads "McCarthy" one through ten and "Hoover" one through ten.



I support this, but not the rest.  Oh, and we need to build a Liberty Prime at some point.  Being a mech in itself is major minus points, but if we can get a nigh-authentic voice it'll make up for such.

Right now, we can't exactly hold the planet.  We could defeat it in a few days, yeah, but then what?  Unless I'm missing stuff in the OP, we don't have enough assets to properly hold the ground.  _Yet._

EDIT:  You jumped a little too quickly to being a Red Corto.  I'm onto you...


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Also I vote against whatever Browder says because that's how politics work, sunshine. We can surely reach a consensus once you start approving my least ridiculous demands and I vote for your hippie peace-loving fascist ideas.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> Also I vote against whatever Browder says because that's how politics work, sunshine. We can surely reach a consensus once you start approving my least ridiculous demands and I vote for your hippie peace-loving fascist ideas.



I vote that you get to name our missiles, how's that?


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> Also I vote against whatever Browder says because that's how politics work, sunshine. We can surely reach a consensus once you start approving my least ridiculous demands and I vote for your hippie peace-loving fascist ideas.


Says the guy in the Combine get-up.

I would have thought that after the first 50000-some years we'd have got all our bantering out of the way.  Obviously I underestimated the minds behind FAF. :mrgreen:


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## Spawtsie Paws (Apr 28, 2010)

Prime Directive


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Ok, Lenin one through nine, Marx one through nine and have our strongest (or pimpiest) couple be named "Hammer" and "Sickle". Anyone else supports it? 
If this gets approved I vote for Browders stupid idea of sending non-nuclear-explosive drones to investigate the planet.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Says the guy in the Combine get-up.
> 
> I would have thought that after the first 50000-some years we'd have got all our bantering out of the way.  Obviously I underestimated the minds behind FAF. :mrgreen:


You kiddin? I'm sure we switched moral views in the ship just so we could argue some more.



HAXX said:


> Prime Directive


This^. Except maybe a little loosely.



Corto said:


> Ok, Lenin one through nine, Marx one through nine and have our strongest (or pimpiest) couple be named "Hammer" and "Sickle". Anyone else supports it?
> If this gets approved I vote for Browders stupid idea of sending non-nuclear-explosive drones to investigate the planet.



Fine. Name the missiles whatever you want.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

HAXX said:


> Prime Directive



Wouldn't that mean if their star was about to go 'nova we'd say "Tough luck chumps" and let them roast?


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> EDIT: Can our laser weaponry carve a giant hammer and sickle on their moon?



Yes, it can. 



HAXX said:


> Prime Directive



Both of your civilizations are pre-warp.


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Wouldn't that mean if their star was about to go 'nova we'd say "Tough luck chumps" and let them roast?



It would indeed. Hence we be loose about it.

In fact let's make this a rule. We don't interfere with there species or planet unless it's a problem that either harms us or harms them in such a way that they can't deal with it on there own. All in favor?


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Woo!


> Right now, we can't exactly hold the planet.  We could defeat it in a  few days, yeah, but then what?  Unless I'm missing stuff in the OP, we  don't have enough assets to properly hold the ground.  _Yet._


What do you mean "then what"? Unless I misinterpreted the OP which I didn't read (too many numbers!) we're preparing the universe for colonization or something. We blow those space fascists to pieces or at least cripple their military power and then scare them into staying put and BAM! We neutralized the biggest local threat. Also, if we can somehow modify our drones with implements to further scare the local population (I dont know, we paint mean faces on them or something) I suggest we prepare some for post-armaggedon population control. 
Can we download our conciousness onto their space internet or something?

EDIT: Prime directive my ass. I vote we carve a hammer and sickle on their moon right now. We're playing pretend, what's the fun if we pretend we're watching?
EDIT x2: Have Lenin 6 and Marx 8 ready to launch at whatever they throw at us as revenge for their sattelite.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> EDIT: Prime directive my ass. I vote we carve a hammer and sickle on their moon right now. We're playing pretend, what's the fun if we pretend we're watching?



You can't do it now. You can do it from the orbit of the third planet or the main belt, though.


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Well, move there ASAP! All in favour of at least moving close enough to carve their moon? It would be even less direct intervention than those stupid drones we sent.
EDIT: Also, Vikar, give me a full report on the drones' anal probing capabilities.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Don't interfere?  Why the hell would we have gone some 5000+ lightyears out to the planet then?  Boredom?


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Woo! Two thirds, baby! Lets interfere us some bitches.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Alright, the remote probe is away. It will arrive in 27 years and nine moths. 

We can timeskip until something important happens, if people vote for it.


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

How long 'til we get to moon carving distance? And where's my anal report?


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## Browder (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> Woo! Two thirds, baby! Lets interfere us some bitches.



Oh shit.



Vikar said:


> Alright, the remote probe is away. It will arrive in 27 years and nine moths.
> 
> We can timeskip until something important happens, if people vote for it.



Might as well.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Corto said:


> How long 'til we get to moon carving distance? And where's my anal report?



Thirty years until you can carve on the moon. Your drones have no anal probing capability at the moment, but you can design and build specialized platforms.


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## Attaman (Apr 28, 2010)

Wait, about how much of a time delay is there between us seeing the planet, and what's going on?  We should be able to compute that in a few micro-seconds.  We could be seeing the planet a few years... oh shit.  ABORT MISSION!


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## Corto (Apr 28, 2010)

Well, move to moon-carve distance and begin constructions of those special platforms, then timeskip 27 years and nine months. Our drones should give us a 2 years heads-up of their local political and military landscape before we give our presence away. All in favour? EDIT: Abort mission my ass, you traitor to the Motherland! We've got enough nuclear firepower to turn the whole thing into solid jewel. Let's move in.


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## Vikar (Apr 28, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Wait, about how much of a time delay is there between us seeing the planet, and what's going on?  We should be able to compute that in a few micro-seconds.  We could be seeing the planet a few years... oh shit.  ABORT MISSION!



There is a three year time lag.



Corto said:


> Well, move to moon-carve distance and begin constructions of those special platforms, then timeskip 27 years and nine months. Our drones should give us a 2 years heads-up of their local political and military landscape before we give our presence away. All in favour?



I made a typo. Oh well, I will accept my mistake. 

We will timeskip when Attaman is done worrying about time lag.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman, we cool? I dont want to see the commisar AI sending you to computer gulag for treason.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Well, move to moon-carve distance and begin constructions of those special platforms, then timeskip 27 years and nine months. Our drones should give us a 2 years heads-up of their local political and military landscape before we give our presence away. All in favour? EDIT: Abort mission my ass, you traitor to the Motherland! We've got enough nuclear firepower to turn the whole thing into solid jewel. Let's move in.



Maybe if we used our energy system that allowed us to accelerate to .1C, yeah, but 20 5MT nukes does not a glassed planet make.  Furthermore, we could be stirring a hornets nest.  We haven't even got our answer as to whether they look like Ewoks or not:  Look at what they did to Storm Troopers sans industry, now imagine them _industrialized_!

BTW, I suggest we move closer to get a better look at our test subjects doom mysterious planet.

EDIT:  We coo'.  Besides, your commissar pulled a vanishing act.  Something about a stable link to the porn system back home.  No, I will not share it.  Yes, it is a very odd system, and yes, we do have FTL porn now.  And no, we don't actually have it.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

That's a yes, I suppose. Also did Browder jump ship? That dog, I have no doubt that by now he's halfway to space-Berlin informing those fascists about our nuclear strike capabilities. We must move now before we lose the element of surprise.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Maybe if we used our energy system that allowed us to accelerate to .1C, yeah, but 20 5MT nukes does not a glassed planet make.  Furthermore, we could be stirring a hornets nest.  We haven't even got our answer as to whether they look like Ewoks or not:  Look at what they did to Storm Troopers sans industry, now imagine them _industrialized_!
> 
> BTW, I suggest we move closer to get a better look at our test subjects doom mysterious planet.



Didn't we send probes? Why do we need to get any closer than we already are?


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

To carve the moon, duh.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Browder said:


> Didn't we send probes? Why do we need to get any closer than we already are?



Reduce lag / increase efficiency?  Recall that we're taking some twenty-ish years to respond currently. If we need to react quickly, it might already be too late.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

You can't not move closer without deceling. If you decel fully now, you can't start acceling again.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Reduce lag / increase efficiency?  Recall that we're taking some twenty-ish years to respond currently. If we need to react quickly, it might already be too late.



Hmmm. A yes to movement I suppose. But we keep Corto away from the Lenins.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Well, arm Marx 6 and 8 then. They'll be the fireworks to signal the beginning of our glorious proletarian revolution!


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You can't not move closer without deceling. If you decel fully now, you can't start acceling again.



Ooh, not good.  Hm... looks like it's three votes for closer anyways.  Ah well, the journey home will just remain extra long then? It's also not like we could conquer anything without having to decel eventually.  Or do you mean a very literal "Any slower and you won't be gaining speed again"?


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> Ooh, not good.  Hm... looks like it's three votes for closer anyways.  Ah well, the journey home will just remain extra long then? It's also not like we could conquer anything without having to decel eventually.  Or do you mean a very literal "Any slower and you won't be gaining speed again"?



Why are you so positive that there'll be a journey home?


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Browder said:


> Why are you so positive that there'll be a journey home?



"We got to keep hope, Mr. Frodo."

EDIT:  From now on, Browder's AI name is Frodo.  Corto's Stalin.  Vikar I guess is Opie (O-P).


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

Timeskip time, then.

T -10 years. You start seeing cities go black in a pattern, It appears as though it starts on the outside and then works itself inward. The cities surrounding the area that goes black appear to be untouched. The cities that go black do light up again after a month or two, although they are dimmer than previously observed.

Timeskip end here, for now.

I am an expert system, not part of the crew.

Attaman: I mean that you don't have the delta-v to decel fully and then accel again any meaningful amount.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman said:


> "We got to keep hope, Mr. Frodo."
> 
> EDIT:  From now on, Browder's AI name is Frodo.  Corto's Stalin.  Vikar I guess is Opie (O-P).



Does this mean that I'll slowly turn evil and submit to the Dark Lord? (Corto)
And you actually know what you're talking about with most of the hard science. You get to be Stephen Hawking.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Timeskip time, then.
> 
> T -10 years. You start seeing cities go black in a pattern, It appears as though it starts on the outside and then works itself inward. The cities surrounding the area that goes black appear to be untouched. The cities that go black do light up again after a month or two, although they are dimmer than previously observed.
> 
> ...



We need better probes. Is there any way of building one?


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

Browder said:


> We need better probes. Is there any way of building one?



Yes, but not with your current resources.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Anything from the scouts? I wanna know what's causing the global blackouts. Did the fascist turn to in-fighting? 

Also, I want a drone to dedicate itself to scouting local religious institutions, buildings, etc. If possible, I want us to pose as communist gods.
EDIT: Can we start carving the moon yet?


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Anything from the scouts? I wanna know what's causing the global blackouts. Did the fascist turn to in-fighting?
> 
> Also, I want a drone to dedicate itself to scouting local religious institutions, buildings, etc. If possible, I want us to pose as communist gods.



Apart from the communist gods bit, I approve this plan as long as it involves discretion. We cannot, under any circumstances, let anyone know we are here. It's bad enough that we're so close to the planet already.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Anything from the scouts? I wanna know what's causing the global blackouts. Did the fascist turn to in-fighting?



Corto, lightspeed lag is the same whether you're getting information  from your drones or directly from the planet. 



Corto said:


> Also, I want a drone to dedicate itself to scouting local religious institutions, buildings, etc. If possible, I want us to pose as communist gods.



You can easily pose as communist gods. You can get more information on their religion and such once you get closer, or perhaps from studying their transmissions.



Browder said:


> Apart from the communist gods bit, I approve this  plan as long as it involves discretion. We cannot, under any  circumstances, let anyone know we are here. It's bad enough that we're  so close to the planet already.



There is no such thing as stealth in space.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

That sounds like Browder approves my moon carving plan.

Here's a way to keep it hidden, though: How about we carve their dark side of the moon and, when we're ready to reveal our worker-deity selves, nuke one side of it to turn it around?
EDIT: Hows the anal-probe production going, after all these years? I expect at least a couple thousands of the fuckers.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> That sounds like Browder approves my moon carving plan.



Guess again. You edited after I quoted. No moon carving for you.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> EDIT: Hows the anal-probe production going, after all these years? I expect at least a couple thousands of the fuckers.



None, because you've not enough minerals.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Attaman! Moon carving sounds good to you, doesn't it?

EDIT: Deploy SCVs to the nearest mineral deposits. If we dont have any, just disarm some non-essential part of the ship and wedge the blunt parts to the foreheads of our existing drones, as makeshift molesters.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Corto, lightspeed lag is the same whether you're getting information  from your drones or directly from the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We haven't been doing this already? And I vote we should land after all, but away from any habitation. Do a bio-scan for complex life.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

I approve the landing, but only after our fleet of anal rapers is ready to be used as a defense mechanism against possible enemy response.

Also I appoint myself Embassador of the Glorious Terran Soviet Union, in charge of dealing with the locals should they make any attempt to contact us. 
Order a drone or whatever to paint a red star on my terminal.

EDIT: that's an actual issue, should we land. Any physical markings on the outside of the ship? Imagine had an alien ship landed in the US during the 40s with someting resembling a swastika on the outside.


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## Bloodshot_Eyes (Apr 29, 2010)

This whole thread. @.@


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## Ames (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> What do you do?



Befriend the Klingons.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> I approve the landing, but only after our fleet of anal rapers is ready to be used as a defense mechanism against possible enemy response.
> 
> Also I appoint myself Embassador of the Glorious Terran Soviet Union, in charge of dealing with the locals should they make any attempt to contact us.
> Order a drone or whatever to paint a red star on my terminal.
> ...



No physical markings on the ship. And I actual do approve a security team. You'd make a horrible ambassador though so thumbs down to this one. I nominate myself.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

I vote "no" on you, but am willing to agree on joint diplomatic duties. We could do the "good cop bad cop" thing if they try to play hardball. 

What's the status of our anal robots?
EDIT: also, I'm willing to give up my embassador post and allow you full control of diplomacy if I'm in turn named chief of security and given direct control of our fleet of anal-probe armed drones. Strongest stuff such as lasers and nukes would still need a majority vote to be used.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm going to bed. Someone take over and make sure that this exploration team has some kind of moral compass? Thanks.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Attaman! Moon carving sounds good to you, doesn't it?
> 
> EDIT: Deploy SCVs to the nearest mineral deposits. If we dont have any, just disarm some non-essential part of the ship and wedge the blunt parts to the foreheads of our existing drones, as makeshift molesters.



There are no non essential parts of the ship due to a little thing called mass ratios. 



Browder said:


> We haven't been doing this already? And I vote we should land after all, but away from any habitation. Do a bio-scan for complex life.



Your ship cannot land. There is probably complex life, given that there are cities. You were not monitoring their radio because you never said you were. 

Analysis of logged transmissions will give you data on the sort of things you're interested in.

First, they appear to look like bipedal felines. They have smaller ears than Terran cats, and only short tails. They are digitigrade, and probably ambush predators. They have worse eyesight in general than Humans, but better night vision. Their sense of smell is also better, though their sense of taste is significantly worse than Humans. They are carnivores, and the primary prey animal is an ungulate which also gives milk and a wool like substance. These animals are commonly farmed. There is also extensive aqualife farming in coastal zones. 

They have several common religions. Most are monotheistic, although there is one major one that is still polytheistic. Their creation myths range from "the universe created God" to "God created the universe" to "God created himself after the universe was made". 

Their political landscape consists of small, less important island countries, with larger countries controlling larger islands and splitting the largest. There are two distinct regions, culturally, the north and the south. The north is mostly socialist and fascist, which the south is more democratic. In general, they are more supporting of free markets than we are, although not to an enormous degree. There are no mentions of anyone trying anything like communism, or even thinking of the idea. The closest thing is a socialist system where a base standard of living is maintained by the state, and citizens are free to pursue their own goals. 

Militarily, they are about 1940s-50s level. They do not have nuclear weapons. The darkening cities you saw were indicative of a war that destroyed an aggressive fascist nation in the north. Both northern and southern troops were deployed to fight this nation, and worked together.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm outtie as well. This is fun, dont fuck it up while I'm gone. Also, I leave standing orders to nuke anyone that even dares look our way.

EDIT: Disarm a nuke then, one of the Lenins, and we'll have radioactive anal probes.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Holy shit fuck, NAZI SPACE CATS. 

Send an immediate radio message on all channels. Inform them of our presence and nuclear striking capabilities (nuke some smaller fascist nation to prove it), but keep the anal probes as our hidden weapon. Order all fascist factions to disarm their militaries and change their political ideology to far superior communism, and give them five years to comply under threat of radioactive armaggedon. If possible, translate and transmit copies of the Communist Manifesto to every state. If not possible, transmit it anyway in our language and let them figure it out.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Holy shit fuck, NAZI SPACE CATS.
> 
> Send an immediate radio message on all channels. Inform them of our presence and nuclear striking capabilities (nuke some smaller fascist nation to prove it), but keep the anal probes as our hidden weapon. Order all fascist factions to disarm their militaries and change their political ideology to far superior communism, and give them five years to comply under threat of radioactive armaggedon. If possible, translate and transmit copies of the Communist Manifesto to every state. If not possible, transmit it anyway in our language and let them figure it out.



Neglecting sleep for veto. It's their governments and their problem.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Can I veto his veto? 
C'mon, fuck the prime directive, comrade Browder. It is our sworn duty to protect the ideals of equality and socialism, we are probably programmed to hate fascists.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Can I veto his veto?
> C'mon, fuck the prime directive, comrade Browder. It is our sworn duty to protect the ideals of equality and socialism, we are probably programmed to hate fascists.



Assuming we can make our own decisions and that there's no programming, no, not it is not our duty, our people, or our planet. I'm not budging on this.

Attaman? You there? Looks like you get the tie-breaker.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

This is a good time to mention that you were supposed to get communications from Sol throughout the journey here. You stopped receiving transmissions about 30k years into the trip. You should have been able to receive the transmissions throughout the trip, so it isn't just that your equipment has failed to detect it.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> This is a good time to mention that you were supposed to get communications from Sol throughout the journey here. You stopped receiving transmissions about 30k years into the trip. You should have been able to receive the transmissions throughout the trip, so it isn't just that your equipment has failed to detect it.



Knew it. We can't go home again.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

So it's safe to assume our glorious motherland lays in ruins?

Fuck, take out our frustration on the Katze Reich.


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

Since we know so much about them I can assume that we were able to figure out the nuances of their language(s) and so would be able to in theory communicate with them. If this is the case then a study should be done on what nation/culture on the planet best approximates ours, or in other words be "the most sympathetic" to us; insofar as two distinct species can think alike. Preferably this nation would have a sizable military presence one the planet. 

Once this is done plans should be made to contact this nation, and only this nation. We may contact the rest of the planet at any point in the future if we desire to do so, but it is vitally important we establish a kind of "special relationship" with at least one of the powers on the planet to begin with. If the ultimate goal is to conquer the planet, then you can count on the loyalty of the citizens of that nation if you held them in esteem from the very beginning. If we do not want to conquer the planet, then it still will not hurt us to do so. 

In any event the planet needs to be scanned for resources either from the probe itself (if it has the ability to do so) or from piecing together information from the locals themselves. We need to find out where the concentrations of the important resources are on the planet, "important resources" being defined as any resources needed for the production or operation of the tech there. And example would be oil or iron deposits for us now. 

Also: eta?

Sol, at this point, is completely irrelevant to us. If our equipment is working and it really is a problem on their end, still doesn't matter. Any number of factors could result in them stopping communication with us, as it has been so bloody long. And even if we knew the reason, there is nothing we can to for them and nothing they can do for us. All that matters is getting a foothold on this planet and eventually seizing it. We can worry about the earth later.

And this goes without saying but it has not been explicitly stated yet, we should be analyzing every bit of information we get about these creatures themselves. All we have to work with are their own signals, yes, but it should give us a solid understanding of how they think and behave by the time we get there. We need to know how their thinking and behavior deviates from our own so we can compensate accordingly. 

Lastly: I suggest you change the threads name from _tactics_ to _strategy._


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## TashkentFox (Apr 29, 2010)

I appoint myself Grand Admiral of the Royal Canadian Navy's Outer Space fleet, tactics shall be those used by the glorious British Empire (ie. only fight the natives if they're armed with nothing more than a sharp piece of rock tied to a stick).


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## A Concerned Citizen (Apr 29, 2010)

It seems we're at an impasse regarding the nature of the planet and its political landscape as well as our own future. We have no idea what happened to Mother Russia Earth, but we know our current circumstances.

Firstly, O.P.I.E., our resident OmniPresent Intelligent Entity has shown that these "cats" have technological capacity comparable to our WWII ancestors. This may not seem like much given our technology, but considering that our resources are limited and they have they distinct possibility to understand that life may indeed exist beyond their own planet (after all, our own sci-fi novelists were making such proclamations long before the advent of the airplane), they could--in theory--united against us if we were to invoke any type of tyranny against the native populous ...and God help us if they have their own Oppenheimer writing down his/her plans. After all, a nuke is still a nuke and that would definitely ruin our day. 

Secondly, we don't have the luxury to simply lie in the shadows and wait. Something has happened to Earth and there's no way we could contact them from this part of the galaxy. We can't simply lie in wait. They will eventually point their telescopes in our direction, be it two months from now of one hundred years from now. 

It should also be our obligation to prevent any possible genocide from taking place. Assuming that they have a unified theory of evolution, they will have made that logical fallacy of Social Darwinism and the fascists or even the democrats will have start to send their calicoes to the gas chambers... Keep in mind that even though there is scads of people who support negatives rights, they may not support negative rights for all.

OPIE, is there any additional information you might have regarding the political landscape? Of who might be the most valiant defender of positive and negative rights for all?


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Since we know so much about them I can assume that we were able to figure out the nuances of their language(s) and so would be able to in theory communicate with them. If this is the case then a study should be done on what nation/culture on the planet best approximates ours, or in other words be &quot;the most sympathetic&quot; to us; insofar as two distinct species can think alike. Preferably this nation would have a sizable military presence one the planet.



The northern socialist states are most in line with you ideologically. However, they are rather xenophobic. They do have significant military presences, consisting of a small corp of highly trained specialists and then a larger amount of citizen soldiers.



CommodoreKitty said:


> In any event the planet needs to be scanned for resources either from the probe itself (if it has the ability to do so) or from piecing together information from the locals themselves. We need to find out where the concentrations of the important resources are on the planet, &quot;important resources&quot; being defined as any resources needed for the production or operation of the tech there. And example would be oil or iron deposits for us now.



The probe can do it in five years.




CommodoreKitty said:


> Also: eta?



Ten years until scheduled decel. This will put you in orbit around any planet in the system.



CommodoreKitty said:


> And this goes without saying but it has not been explicitly stated yet, we should be analyzing every bit of information we get about these creatures themselves. All we have to work with are their own signals, yes, but it should give us a solid understanding of how they think and behave by the time we get there. We need to know how their thinking and behavior deviates from our own so we can compensate accordingly.



In general, they seem to be a lot less trusting than Humans. They use deception a lot, although outright lies are seen as blunt, and lacking in subtlety. Their military philosophy relies extremely heavily on deception. One of the most famous quotes by one of their ancient tacticians is &quot;the best offense is a good defense&quot;.



CommodoreKitty said:


> Lastly: I suggest you change the threads name from tactics to strategy.



It's an homage to a thread on a different forum. I am aware of the difference.



A Concerned Citizen said:


> After all, a nuke is still a nuke and that would definitely ruin our day.



Yes, it would. You do not have the capability to take a nuclear hit, although you do have point defense capabilities.



A Concerned Citizen said:


> OPIE, is there any additional information you might have regarding the political landscape? Of who might be the most valiant defender of positive and negative rights for all?



In the north, there are eleven medium sized powers. Three of them are fascist, with six socialist and one small free market nearly anarchist kingdom. The other nation is under military occupation, split between Southern Coalition forces and the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance is made up of five of the socialist states and one of the fascist ones, and together they hold about 70% of the northern landmasses. All of the nations are about evenly matched in military power.

In the south, there are five large nations. The top two are about even in terms of military might, while the other three together almost reach the power of one of the big two. The Southern Coalition is made up of one of the larger powers and two of the smaller ones. The other two nations have a loose agreement  of non-aggression.

The northern military forces, collectively, are about one and a half times larger than the forces of one of the larger southern powers. Together, the Southern Alliance matches all of the north.

There are various islands scattered about.

N1: Socialist, Alliance, democratic.
N2: Socialist, Alliance, Oligarchy elected for life.
N3: Fascist, non allied. Accepting of outsiders who want to integrate with them, dictatorship.
N4: Fascist, allied, republic.
N5: Occupied by the Coalition and Alliance.
N6: Fascist, non allied, technocracy.
N7: Socialist, xenophobic, non allied, democracy.
N8: Anarchist capitalism, non allied. 
N9: Socialist, technocracy, allied. 
N10: Socialist, democracy, allied.
N11: Socialist, dictatorship, allied. 

S1: Large power, democratic republic, coalition. Free market. 
S2: Large power, dictatorship, non-coalition. Free market with strategic industries government controlled.
S3: Small power, democracy, coalition. Command economy.
S4: Small power, technocracy, coalition. Free market.
S5: Small power, oligarchy, non-coalition. Free market.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Sends signals to the socialist cats, try to convince them to join our revolution. Nuke the fascists, using Marx 3, Lenin 1 and Sickle.


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> N3: Fascist, non allied. Accepting of outsiders who want to integrate with them, dictatorship.


Then is sounds like we need more information on N3 then. Specifically, how stable is it as a society and what are its relations to the other nations: It is not allied, is this because they are the Swedes of this world or because they hate the rest of the north? Attention should also be paid to S2 as a viable southern power. Essentially, we should be looking for a government that best approximates our ideas, as enough of a military presence to be respected by other nations, and has a stable and cohesive society where decisions made at the top will be obeyed even if it is not popular. The goal is to find a nation, or two, with leaders that will follow advice given to them (given the proper reasons to listen to us of course) and a society that will obey the decisions of their rulers even if they call for unorthodox changes. The strongest nation that fits these descriptions should be the one we contact first. 

Also, what kind of reduction in operational ability, if any, can we expect by having the probe do a scan of the planet? Not that the 5 years makes that much of a difference, but the quicker we get the information we need, the better. 

We should also be scoping out isolated ares where we can, well, abduct natives to get a better idea of their biology. We may be able to pick up some stuff from their transmissions, but it is best we use our own tools for this task. 

And we have to ask ourselves: why do we give a shit about this planet in the first place? Beyond the novelty of finding a new species, what was our _purpose_ in coming here? I may have missed that in the thread, but it seems to me like what happened was some guy on Earth for a planet, and they proceeded to send a team there to do something that probes alone could not do. Do we really want to conquer the planet, or just establish peaceful relations with all the nations there. Because the easiest thing for us to do would simply be to continuously infect their population with engineered viruses and wipe most of them out. Conquering the planet would be trivially simple at that point.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Also, what kind of reduction in operational ability, if any, can we expect by having the probe do a scan of the planet? Not that the 5 years makes that much of a difference, but the quicker we get the information we need, the better.



Time lag will be the same, so you only get more detailed information, not faster information. Do you want to scan passively, as you've been doing now, or actively?



CommodoreKitty said:


> And we have to ask ourselves: why do we give a shit about this planet in the first place? Beyond the novelty of finding a new species, what was our _purpose_ in coming here? I may have missed that in the thread, but it seems to me like what happened was some guy on Earth for a planet, and they proceeded to send a team there to do something that probes alone could not do. Do we really want to conquer the planet, or just establish peaceful relations with all the nations there. Because the easiest thing for us to do would simply be to continuously infect their population with engineered viruses and wipe most of them out. Conquering the planet would be trivially simple at that point.



It was a scientific expedition with the secondary goal of establishing an extrasolar colony.

Please cast your votes on a timeskip. More details on the nations in a few hours.


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## Kommodore (Apr 29, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Time lag will be the same, so you only get more detailed information, not faster information. Do you want to scan passively, as you've been doing now, or actively?


I meant would allocating extra resources to an active scan on the planet impede the probes other scanning abilities in any way. So if we tell it to focus on finding the resources, will it be less able to do other scans? 



> It was a scientific expedition with the secondary goal of establishing  an extrasolar colony.


 I don't see what benefit a scientific expedition could possibly furnish given the amount of time it takes to do something like this. The reason we have lost contact with Earth is because our comrades back home have likely transcended by now! 

In any event, if we are to establish an extrasolar colony, the _safest_ thing to do would simply be to wipe out the cats and keep a few in captivity/ keep genes in storage/ for study. We can find out all we want about the planet's ecosystem once the cats are gone, and get all we need to know from the cats in controlled laboratory environments. In this manner we can accomplish both our primary and secondary goals an minimize the chance of failure. 

I vote to timeskip, but if we timeskip enough be in the system we should not appear anywhere near the planet. Assuming the star is a sun-like main sequence, a distance of 2-3 AU should be fine.


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## Browder (Apr 29, 2010)

I vote to timeskip too, however I reiterate that we should not make contact of any kind with the locals, let alone interfere with there events. It's morally wrong to meddle in the affairs of a less technologically advanced species.


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## Truth (Apr 29, 2010)

I think that we should capture a Nazi Space Cat as soon as possible to  learn about them, and... we need a pet cat. We can try and understand  their language and find out what their world is like by asking someone.  For dangerous research, capture more cats. 

Carving into the moon should be left for a show of dominance if needed,  don't do it unnecessarily. I believe that everyone should get there as  soon as possible. Nuking seems like a bad idea, save them.

Just get a Space Cat. I need some company besides those I have seen on  this ship for years. Being stuck in a vault in space with the same people every day isn't very good.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

How much has our equipment degraded / improved in the 50,000-some years we've had to think?  Even just a ship-mounted AI of the crudest design could likely come up with something in that time.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> I meant would allocating extra resources to an active scan on the planet impede the probes other scanning abilities in any way. So if we tell it to focus on finding the resources, will it be less able to do other scans?



No, there will be no reduction in information gathering resources.



CommodoreKitty said:


> I don't see what benefit a scientific expedition could possibly furnish given the amount of time it takes to do something like this. The reason we have lost contact with Earth is because our comrades back home have likely transcended by now!



There was a tech plateau. As of twenty thousand years ago, it had still not been overcome.



CommodoreKitty said:


> Then is sounds like we need more information on N3 then. Specifically,  how stable is it as a society and what are its relations to the other  nations: It is not allied, is this because they are the Swedes of this  world or because they hate the rest of the north? Attention should also  be paid to S2 as a viable southern power. Essentially, we should be  looking for a government that best approximates our ideas, as enough of a  military presence to be respected by other nations, and has a stable  and cohesive society where decisions made at the top will be obeyed even  if it is not popular. The goal is to find a nation, or two, with  leaders that will follow advice given to them (given the proper reasons  to listen to us of course) and a society that will obey the decisions of  their rulers even if they call for unorthodox changes. The strongest  nation that fits these descriptions should be the one we contact first.



N3 is one of the stronger military powers in the north. They are the ones that took the first assault from the now defunct N5, and managed to beat them back across the border with only minor help. They are expansionist, and some of the minor island nations are their puppets. They are closely aligned with N6, and the government appears, at least from the outside, to be stable. Their leaders seem to be a stubborn bunch, however.



Attaman said:


> How much has our equipment degraded / improved in  the 50,000-some years we've had to think?  Even just a ship-mounted AI  of the crudest design could likely come up with something in that  time.


 
You did the necessary preventative maintenance en route to the system. Your technology has not improved any significant amount since you left Sol, and most of the new updates you got from Sol contained new doctrine, designs, tactics, etc. 

Timeskip:

T-5 years: your probe has entered the edges of the system. From what you can gather from passive sensors and intercepted radio, the planet is rich in hydrocarbons, heavy metals, and rare earth elements. I will also be posting a map shortly.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Ok, let's be_ pussies_ and not nuke anyone. Assign all resources to undersating their language in order to prepare a fitting conquest speech. 
Did you already disarm a nuke to create my anal probes? If not, then do that ASAP.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Ok, let's be_ pussies_ and not nuke anyone. Assign all resources to undersating their language in order to prepare a fitting conquest speech.
> Did you already disarm a nuke to create my anal probes? If not, then do that ASAP.



Why disarm it?  You can make the probes atomic.


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## Corto (Apr 29, 2010)

Dude I doubt space nazi kitties have assholes big enough to fit a nuke into.


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## Attaman (Apr 29, 2010)

Corto said:


> Dude I doubt space nazi kitties have assholes big enough to fit a nuke into.


They only need to be small nukes.  Besides, there's bound to be at least one that had a large insertion fetish.


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## Vikar (Apr 29, 2010)

More juicy timeskip stuff. 

You've been able to gather more updated information on their general tech level. Their military seems to be about late 70s. They detonated several nuclear devices at T-8. ICBMs have been deployed. They have satellites in orbit, although they remain few in number. They have lasers, although information on them is spotty. One can buy a red laser pointer in a store for the equivalent of $100 USD in 2010. They do not have vaccinations. They do have basic antibiotics, though. DNA has been discovered, but nobody is quite sure what it does. This is all gathered from public broadcasts, of course, so there may be secret projects that you are not aware of. They have guided cruise missiles about equilateral to the early Tomahawk designs, and they are nuclear capable. They have jet aircraft capable of reaching mach 3, and high altitude bombers a lot like the Valkyries.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> More juicy timeskip stuff.



We have just lost our most powerful tool of intimidation--nukes. We of course still have technology far in advance of their own, but that doesn't matter for two reasons: first no other weapons we have, including teh lazors, will have the same intimidation factor as a nukes. They simply don't. Second, they are approaching (or are already at) a technological level were they can rationalize that technology is powerful and that they too can have a that power. I mean to say, if I showed you some neat piece of tech that had not been invented yet, you would think it very cool and would wonder how it would work, but you would not trip out. If I were to show the same thing to a caveman, he would worship me as a god for being magical. 

In other words, they will not be nearly as intimidated (or awed) by our tech. This puts us at a major diplomatic disadvantage. 

There is also the rate of technological advance to consider. It will not be long (relatively speaking) before they could pose a very real threat to our single expeditionary vessel. This leaves us only two real options upon our arrival: We can very literally "come in peace," and help them and do all that other space hippie stuff. The reasoning being that if we present ourselves as a boon to their culture and appear as peaceful travelers, they may not see us as a threat and after a few generations even accept us. Of course the problem there is that within a few hundred years we would be completely and utterly at their mercy as they would have reached something like our tech level. That is notsogood if you want to have things go your way. It may be nice, but it is stupid. 

A far more practical, if cold, way of approaching this would simply be to wipe the cats out. Before it was just a backup if our diplomacy failed, but now it really is the safest, smartest thing for us to do if we want to set up a colony in that system. Two different species may be able to occupy the same space, but I find it very likely that one would see the other as a threat and attack. The cats would see us as a threat as long as our tech is more advanced, and even for some time when they are even with us. They are not above war, and I find it likely that they could attack and destroy any colonization effort we had going. 

What we need to do is to start gathering the information needed to create and deliver a virus to the cats and at the very least make them incapable of retaliating against us. If you do not want to wipe them out, we can simple "blast" them back to the stone-age by killing almost all of them, rendering them incapable of threatening us and rebuilding their civilization from scratch. Then we still have the problem of two different species existing in the same space, which may or may not be a problem. It simply is not a risk we should take. 

Besides, we could always save some samples and bring the species back on our terms if we desired to do so in the future. But we have to do this quickly before they develop competent medicine.


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## Corto (Apr 30, 2010)

A doubt here, about the colony bit: Do we, in our ships, have the resources to start a colony (DNA samples to clone us some humans or something), are we expecting a ship full of life-forms in, say, a couple of years or something (and we're sure they're gonna arrive, meaning we have knowledge that they're on their way) or was the plan just finding out what the hell is going on and then the comrades at our homeland were going to send the colonization team? Because if the last is true, since we lost contact so long ago, it's safe to assume they're not gonna get here.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Corto said:


> A doubt here, about the colony bit: Do we, in our ships, have the resources to start a colony (DNA samples to clone us some humans or something), are we expecting a ship full of life-forms in, say, a couple of years or something (and we're sure they're gonna arrive, meaning we have knowledge that they're on their way) or was the plan just finding out what the hell is going on and then the comrades at our homeland were going to send the colonization team? Because if the last is true, since we lost contact so long ago, it's safe to assume they're not gonna get here.



You have the DNA samples and VN machines to establish your own colony. There are no follow up ships.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> We have just lost our most powerful tool  of intimidation--nukes. We of course still have technology far in  advance of their own, but that doesn't matter for two reasons: first no  other weapons we have, including teh lazors, will have the same  intimidation factor as a nukes. They simply don't. Second, they are  approaching (or are already at) a technological level were they can  rationalize that technology is powerful and that they too can have a  that power. I mean to say, if I showed you some neat piece of tech that  had not been invented yet, you would think it very cool and would wonder  how it would work, but you would not trip out. If I were to show the  same thing to a caveman, he would worship me as a god for being magical.
> 
> In other words, they will not be nearly as intimidated (or awed) by our  tech. This puts us at a major diplomatic disadvantage.



If someone carved a symbol into our moon overnight, i'd be pretty scared of whoever was up there. If their tech is now in the 70s, then they might have televisions now, increasing the rate that information is spread. They won't believe the acts of intimidation would be as magical as before, but it still shows them we have power. But nonetheless I personally would prefer a less hostile approach.




CommodoreKitty said:


> There is also the rate of technological advance to consider. It will not  be long (relatively speaking) before they could pose a very real threat  to our single expeditionary vessel. This leaves us only two real  options upon our arrival: We can very literally "come in peace," and  help them and do all that other space hippie stuff. The reasoning being  that if we present ourselves as a boon to their culture and appear as  peaceful travelers, they may not see us as a threat and after a few  generations even accept us. Of course the problem there is that within a  few hundred years we would be completely and utterly at their mercy as  they would have reached something like our tech level. That is notsogood  if you want to have things go your way. It may be nice, but it is  stupid.



That is an idea. How long do we live for? We could let the next generation deal with that problem. However, they will probably just turn around and kill all humans before then. It also depends on the attitudes of their leaders, if technology is given to only one or two countries, preferably on opposing sides to prevent one wiping out the other, then humanity might gain a unique diplomatic advantage which could be used as a method to intergrate humans peacefully into their countries and hopefully have their laws changed to include humanity as a more equal species. Of course, there will probably be some kindof racism...



CommodoreKitty said:


> A far more practical, if cold, way of approaching this would simply be  to wipe the cats out. Before it was just a backup if our diplomacy  failed, but now it really is the safest, smartest thing for us to do if  we want to set up a colony in that system. Two different species may be  able to occupy the same space, but I find it very likely that one would  see the other as a threat and attack. The cats would see us as a threat  as long as our tech is more advanced, and even for some time when they  are even with us. They are not above war, and I find it likely that they  could attack and destroy any colonization effort we had going.



I personally don't want to wipe them out. That's human feelings rather than logic.



CommodoreKitty said:


> What we need to do is to start gathering the information needed to  create and deliver a virus to the cats and at the very least make them  incapable of retaliating against us. If you do not want to wipe them  out, we can simple "blast" them back to the stone-age by killing almost  all of them, rendering them incapable of threatening us and rebuilding  their civilization from scratch. Then we still have the problem of two  different species existing in the same space, which may or may not be a  problem. It simply is not a risk we should take.
> 
> Besides, we could always save some samples and bring the species back on  our terms if we desired to do so in the future. But we have to do this  quickly before they develop competent medicine.



That seems like an idea... it will take some consideration.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Truth said:


> That is an idea. How long do we live for? We could let the next generation deal with that problem.



You live forever. So do biological Humans. However, there will be no next generation unless you make one.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You live forever. So do biological Humans. However, there will be no next generation unless you make one.



That.. changes things. It also reinforces the part where I'm bored of the entire crew and need someone unique to talk to. If we are to do anything now, we need to atleast take some of their species or atleast keep them alive cause you're all boring. We can make more humans but these guys are more unique, and they're already there, they don't take time to make.

I just hope we havn't lost all emotion and turned into simply logical beings without emotions who have been so bored that they could carve a symbol into a moon just to intimidate people and laugh at them...


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## Corto (Apr 30, 2010)

What you people don't seem to realize is that we lost contact with Mother Russia a long time ago. For all we know, our clone machines are the last hope for humanity. The survival of our species is our responsability, and with that in mind I couldn't give half a fuck about nazi space cats.

Now, we obviously can't nuke 'em all because we dont want to turn our possible new home into a radioactive hellhole, so I suggest we use spies or anal drones or whatever to find out where their nuclear stockpiles are and nuke those parts to destroy their defensive capabilities. Then we simply clear any military they may have with our far superior space lasers.

Also, don't forget to a) Make anal probes and b) Carve the moon


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

So we are in agreement then. 

Virus bomb the planet.

gg


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## Zrcalo (Apr 30, 2010)

REPTILIANS


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Here's an idea I've been mulling over that'll make everyone happy-ish. We can make clones right and randomize personality into them? Why can't we grow the next humans as  downloads? Then we over come a large portion of the natives, wipe their minds and download the new human race. Colony started, and suddenly we have bodies that are adapted to the local environment. 

No nukes required as it'll ruin our new planet. We maintain the environment, start our colony, and preserve some remnant of the locals.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

In order to make new true AIs, like you, you need to grow at least Human babies. You can upload the minds of the infants and have them grow up in simulspace environments, though.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> Here's an idea I've been mulling over that'll make everyone happy-ish. We can make clones right and randomize personality into them? Why can't we grow the next humans as  downloads? Then we over come a large portion of the natives, wipe their minds and download the new human race. Colony started, and suddenly we have bodies that are adapted to the local environment.


Even if you could upload a consciousness from one organic and download it into another, they would be far from what they were before and effectively 'die,' being replaced by a new person and new personality. Worse if that is not the case, because they will be pissed off we wiped them out. 

Collect a large sample of genes from their race, wipe them out, and then clone some more later if you _really_ feel that bad about it.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> In order to make new true AIs, like you, you need to grow at least Human babies. You can upload the minds of the infants and have them grow up in simulspace environments, though.



I propose we do this, although I also propose that we modify the Simul -Environment programming so that the babies' projected image matches that of one of the locals? Just so they don't have body confusion on the upload. Also we need to teach the babies about Earth ASAP. We don't want some bullshit, "I'm actually a Nazi-Cat" rebellion on our hands. We emphasis that they are human. Moreover we are their parents.



CommodoreKitty said:


> Even if you could upload a consciousness from one organic and download it into another, they would be far from what they were before and effectively 'die,' being replaced by a new person and new personality. Worse if that is not the case, because they will be pissed off we wiped them out.
> 
> Collect a large sample of genes from their race, wipe them out, and then clone some more later if you _really_ feel that bad about it.



This is faster and we get bodies that suit the planet.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

That is a lot of work for no real benefit. You have completely and utterly changed everything they are, effectively making them "human." Why not just cut to the chase and get human colonization going with the samples we have?


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Even if you could upload a consciousness from one organic and download it into another, they would be far from what they were before and effectively 'die,' being replaced by a new person and new personality. Worse if that is not the case, because they will be pissed off we wiped them out.



If you download into a new organic, the old information is wiped. 



Browder said:


> I propose we do this, although I also propose that we modify the Simul -Environment programming so that the babies' projected image matches that of one of the locals? Just so they don't have body confusion on the upload. Also we need to teach the babies about Earth ASAP. We don't want some bullshit, "I'm actually a Nazi-Cat" rebellion on our hands. We emphasis that they are human. Moreover we are their parents.



You can do that, but at the moment you don't have the resources to make new babies.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> That is a lot of work for no real benefit. You have completely and utterly changed everything they are, effectively making them "human." Why not just cut to the chase and get human colonization going with the samples we have?



I know. I suck and normally I'd be against this but The human race might not exist anymore except for us. And I'll reiterate at least we get better bodies. Out of respect I guess we'll teach they're history and culture too.



Vikar said:


> You can do that, but at the moment you don't have the resources to make new babies.




We can power a rocket but not make a baby? Seriously?

Alright, what do we need to collect?


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

We should probably take care of the population before we worry about making babies. Kinda jumping the gun here.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> We should probably take care of the population before we worry about making babies. Kinda jumping the gun here.



But my way we can do both at once.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> We can power a rocket but not make a baby? Seriously?
> 
> Alright, what do we need to collect?



Mass ratios prohibited you from bringing along the resources to make new stuff. You need carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and smaller quantities of some other elements. There are also no women on the ship that I can see. 

Also, the new thread theme song.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> But my way we can do both at once.



Al right then, to start I motion that we do what is necessary to collect some of the local's DNA, preferably a large sample size, and begin work on the virus and its delivery system. 

I take it we have room to store extra genetic material on the ship? It is a scientific mission after all.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Mass ratios prohibited you from bringing along the resources to make new stuff. You need carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and smaller quantities of some other elements.
> 
> Also, the new thread theme song.


...
Motion to kill our A.I. command for playing something so god awful anyone?
And those things aren't rare. Send some probes to get 100 babies worth to start in unpopulated areas.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> I take it we have room to store extra genetic material on the ship? It is a scientific mission after all.



You can indeed store extra genetic material. Especially since you can fully sequence genes in a few minutes, at the most.

I should note that you also have quantum computing. 



Browder said:


> And those things aren't rare. Send some probes to get 100 babies worth to start in unpopulated areas.



Your aVNs can move themselves. But they don't have the delta-v to decel from .1c, so you can't send them out until you actually reach the system. Your pVNs cannot really maneuver.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Al right then, to start I motion that we do what is necessary to collect some of the local's DNA, preferably a large sample size, and begin work on the virus and its delivery system.
> 
> I take it we have room to store extra genetic material on the ship? It is a scientific mission after all.



Could you please quote for an accepted decision to make it easier to verify please? I can't remember how many people wanted to make the virus, nor who and I don't want to have to look through all the post to find out the latest reponse on the virus creation.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Two people voted "yes" to plan V from outer space.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Al right then, to start I motion that we do what is necessary to collect some of the local's DNA, preferably a large sample size, and begin work on the virus and its delivery system.
> 
> I take it we have room to store extra genetic material on the ship? It is a scientific mission after all.



Aye. *raises hand*



Vikar said:


> Your aVNs can move themselves. But they don't have the delta-v to decel from .1c, so you can't send them out until you actually reach the system. Your pVNs cannot really maneuver.



Hmm. Guess we'll just have to get to the planet as soon as possible then, In the meantime scope out the best points for resource collection that would go unnoticed, and work on the virus and genetic sequencing



Vikar said:


> Two people voted "yes" to plan V from outer space.


Yes I realize how much I suck. Thank you O.P.I.E. program for making outdated references to the primitive 20th century. Besides that movie was made by capitalists.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> Hmm. Guess we'll just have to get to the planet as soon as possible then, In the meantime scope out the best points for resource collection that would go unnoticed, and work on the virus and genetic sequencing



The belt and the moons of the gas giant adjacent to it both contain large mineral reserves.

Also, would anyone like to venture names for the system and your starship?

Somebody also needs to design the bioweapon.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> The belt and the moons of the gas giant adjacent to it both contain large mineral reserves.
> 
> Also, would anyone like to venture names for the system and your starship?
> 
> Somebody also needs to design the bioweapon.



Maybe I'm missing something. 'Bloweapon'? I guess I'll let Corto when he comes back.

And what do the natives call the planet and/or system? We call it that. We're already taken enough from them. 

I vote that we call the ship, The _Finney_ after the guy who wrote Invasion of the Bodysnatches.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Preferably somebody with biotech expertise would do the designing, and I don't think Corto has that. 

The natives call the planet a word that loosely translates as "shipwreck".


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> Maybe I'm missing something. 'Bloweapon'? I guess I'll let Corto when he comes back.



Yes, we are creating a virus with the intention of wiping out the natives. That is a bioweapon. 

In order for it to be effective it not only needs to have the highest morality rate possible (for obvious reason) but it also need a _very long_ incubation period. On the order of a month or so. The reason for this is simple: the host will act as a carrier of the virus for a very long time before he shows any symptoms of having it. By the time the first reports come in of a plague it should have spread very far indeed. The longer we can make the incubation period, the more easily it will spread. So perhaps longer than a month. 

We need to run models on how far it will spread with an incubation period of length 'x' and pick the time that maximizes the spread of the virus. 

Additionally, the virus must have a high mutation rate but still have the same lethality. The more the protein coat shifts and changes, the less able the native will be to develop a cure. 

It must be transmittable by air at the very least, and preferable by fluids or even contact as well. The more ways the virus has at entering the body, the better. 

As for delivery, finding a way to spread it over the major population center would be the best way. This part really depends on what equipment we have on board to get to the planets surface. 

Finally, we should constantly be developing new viruses (and bacteria) that fit these criteria and dispersing them as we invent them. Our ability to create these plagues will surpass their ability to fight them, and attrition will win this for us.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Preferably somebody with biotech expertise would do the designing, and I don't think Corto has that.
> 
> The natives call the planet a word *that loosely translates as "shipwreck".*



Well isn't that interesting.

I want a comprehensive report on they're complete history going as ancient as we can get, as well as analysis on their religions. Flag anything that involves 'falling from the sky', including mythology.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Yes, we are creating a virus with the intention of wiping out the natives. That is a bioweapon.
> 
> In order for it to be effective it not only needs to have the highest morality rate possible (for obvious reason) but it also need a _very long_ incubation period. On the order of a month or so. The reason for this is simple: the host will act as a carrier of the virus for a very long time before he shows any symptoms of having it. By the time the first reports come in of a plague it should have spread very far indeed. The longer we can make the incubation period, the more easily it will spread. So perhaps longer than a month.
> 
> ...



Okay. Just remember that our ancestor's  are going to be living in the bodies we plan to infect. Are we 100% sure of our ability to kill anything we create?


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> I want a comprehensive report on they're complete history going as ancient as we can get, as well as analysis on their religions. Flag anything that involves 'falling from the sky', including mythology.



Written history goes back about two thousand years. The wheel and fire are referenced in the oldest recovered tablets. Mythology says that vengeful gods punished the people for their growing disbelief. Most scientists believe that writing simply took a long time to develop, due to the individuality of the species at first, but a few think that there was some sort of cataclysm that wiped out a prehistoric civilization. Most religions have some references to vengeful gods of the sky, however.

And a map.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Written history goes back about two thousand years. The wheel and fire are referenced in the oldest recovered tablets. Mythology says that vengeful gods punished the people for their growing disbelief. Most scientists believe that writing simply took a long time to develop, due to the individuality of the species at first, but a few think that there was some sort of cataclysm that wiped out a prehistoric civilization. Most religions have some references to vengeful gods of the sky, however.



Better and Better.

We left fifty thousand years ago, yes? The ship must have been recording the planet during that time, at least for the last three thousand years. Play the recording based on an estimated time of the "Wheel and Fire".

Also we need DNA samples now. I want to check to see whether it's origin is in fact on 'Shpwreck' at all.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> Better and Better.
> 
> We left fifty thousand years ago, yes? The ship must have been recording the planet during that time, at least for the last three thousand years. Play the recording based on an estimated time of the "Wheel and Fire".
> 
> Also we need DNA samples now. I want to check to see whether it's origin is in fact on 'Shpwreck' at all.



Your telescopes don't show anything.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Your telescopes don't show anything.



Do they show any sentient life around this time or is it impossible to tell with the resolution?


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> Do they show any sentient life around this time or is it impossible to tell with the resolution?



They did not show any sentient life.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> They did not show any sentient life.


Fast Forward until we see some.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> Fast Forward until we see some.



You were unaware of sentient life until you detected the radio signals twenty five years ago.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Somebody also needs to design the  bioweapon.


 
      I've played pandemic 2 once. Anyone have more experience than that?



Vikar said:


> Two people voted "yes" to plan V from outer  space.


 
     2 out of 4 people who are currently active here. Me, Browder, Corto and  Commodore. I don't know who were the 2 votes, but I think 3 people  support the plan.

   If we are to infect them, try and make it as covert as possible. Make  sure they have no idea it was us. Edit: Unless we go with Operation Skylord.



Vikar said:


> Written history goes back about two thousand years.  The wheel and fire are referenced in the oldest recovered tablets.  Mythology says that vengeful gods punished the people for their growing  disbelief. Most scientists believe that writing simply took a long time  to develop, due to the individuality of the species at first, but a few  think that there was some sort of cataclysm that wiped out a prehistoric  civilization. Most religions have some references to vengeful gods of  the sky, however.


 
  This could be used to our advantage with the virus. After learning their  language we could reference ourselves as their gods from the past, and  bring plague (Virus) and destruction (Nukes) aswell as the intimidation  (Moon carving of their sky god.) Using these we could attempt to pull  some beliefs back to Religion and prehaps cause a war between nations.  Of course they could also join forces and try to take the ship down too.  Maybe we could somehow sabotage any attempts for diplomacy to prevent  that in some way such as by stealing some children and making them into  hitcats or something.

 The coalition and allied kingdoms are both occupying a single country  together. I would like to know more information on the Allied kingdom and Coalition's  relationship and what is happening with that country.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You were unaware of sentient life until you detected the radio signals twenty five years ago.



I meant can the telescopes, fast forward to scope out the planet? Any significant atmospheric changes we can measure?

Also I'm stopping for a bit. Reign of Fire is on.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Truth said:


> The coalition and allied kingdoms are both occupying a single country  together. I would like to know more information on the Allied kingdom and Coalition's  relationship and what is happening with that country.



In general, tensions exist. Occasionally there are arguments over resources or environmental issues or something like that, but for the most part the groups are more focused on internal issues. In cases of aggression from a non-grouped country, they often present a united front. This has happened before, and in all of the previous cases the hostile nation had backed down.



Browder said:


> I meant can the telescopes, fast forward to scope  out the planet? Any significant atmospheric changes we can measure?



There was an increase in albedo about five hundred years before their written history began.


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## Bacu (Apr 30, 2010)

Punch rocky planet in snout to establish dominance.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Bacu said:


> Punch rocky planet in snout to establish dominance.



Valuable advice.


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## A Concerned Citizen (Apr 30, 2010)

Firstly, I want to say this one thing--

_Jesus "Tit-Slapping" Christ!!! Are we really suggesting genocide as a viable solution?_

After all these centuries of development, in sociology, in philosophy, in psychology, and in_ fucking compassion_--and after coming to terms the gross atrocities of the American Native Genocide, the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust, the Rwandan Genocide, the Bosnian Genocide, the Darfur Conflict of the early Aughts, the Chechen Massacre of 2014 and the Uyghur Genocide--after everything we've learned from great thinkers through-out history about peace, love, compassion and civility; we're going to resort to the barbarity of our ancestors?

To those seriously considering this as a viable option, I say these words with the most urgency and passion I can muster:

*Fuck. You.*

The United Nations [I'm assuming...] chartered this expedition to seek out new worlds and to better understand the nature our humanity through interactions with these new, alien lifeforms. Yet, at the first sign of trouble we abandon our principles. If we go through with this action, I will terminate my life as form of protest. I will not bear witness to the day we kill an entire planet of adults, children and infants for our own selfish reasons.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

A Concerned Citizen said:


> Firstly, I want to say this one thing--
> 
> _Jesus "Tit-Slapping" Christ!!! Are we really suggesting genocide as a viable solution?_
> 
> ...



Am I included in this? I suppose I am after adding to the suggestions due to a losing vote... Not going as far as Genocide. But I did add suggestions to harming them.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

So far the genocide countdown hasn't started. Only one more vote.


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## A Concerned Citizen (Apr 30, 2010)

Truth said:


> Am I included in this? I suppose I am after adding to the suggestions due to a losing vote... Not going as far as Genocide. But I did add suggestions to harming them.



I understand and recognize the fact that we may have to harm or even kill off a sizable proportion of the populous. I'll even go so far as to say that it may not be in our best interests to attempt diplomacy first, but to create a biological weapon with the full intent of killing everyone? I will not condone such an action.

To those whom have already voted, please reverse your decision.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Some recommended reading for you lot. 

Relativistic weapons


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## A Concerned Citizen (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Some recommended reading for you lot.
> 
> Relativistic weapons



Your cousin's on that site! 

Very strong resemblance, especially in the static region. :V


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Yes. No good cousin, only bothering to get on one webpage.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

A Concerned Citizen said:


> I understand and recognize the fact that we may have to harm or even kill off a sizable proportion of the populous. I'll even go so far as to say that it may not be in our best interests to attempt diplomacy first, but to create a biological weapon with the full intent of killing everyone? I will not condone such an action.
> 
> To those whom have already voted, please reverse your decision.



I was against the creation of the bioweapon for killing everyone, but even killing off some of the population is pretty evil and selfish. It's difficult. It's morals or defense. They might just try and kill us because we're a threat, but just because of the possibility it doesn't mean we should do a pre-emptive strike against the threat.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> There was an increase in albedo about five hundred years before their written history began.



No genocide until we solve this. They might be originally from off planet too. Or maybe someone's contacted them. There planet was giving off light and they have mythology about Fiery Sky Gods. Before we even think about killing them we need to know.


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## Truth (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> No genocide until we solve this. They might be originally from off planet too. Or maybe someone's contacted them. There planet was giving off light and they have mythology about Fiery Sky Gods. Before we even think about killing them we need to know.



Their planet is called "Shipwreck." But even so, their tech is advancing at a similar rate to Humanities as far as I can tell. I'm not smart enough to know how their being prehaps an originally offworld species changes much if they don't seem to know it according to their history beyond sky gods. If someone contacted them, why havn't they stayed in contact?


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Browder said:


> There planet was giving off light...



Albedo is reflected radiation, not emitted.


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## Browder (Apr 30, 2010)

Truth said:


> Their planet is called "Shipwreck." But even so, their tech is advancing at a similar rate to Humanities as far as I can tell. I'm not smart enough to know how their being prehaps an originally offworld species changes much if they don't seem to know it according to their history beyond sky gods. If someone contacted them, why havn't they stayed in contact?



It doesn't change much, I know but it's still interesting. And scary. Have you considered that there might be another species protecting the planet? We need to figure out what's going on.

But first we need to stall for time. Why don't we do what we can to delay their technology? I motion to try to stop all major conflicts. Wars exacerbate the need to develop shit. Also monitor for any scientific breakthrough that they may consider insignificant and send probes or stealth drones to destroy it immediately. Plus we need to get closer to the planet.



Vikar said:


> Albedo is reflected radiation, not emitted.


Even more interesting. Something transmitted something down then.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

I would like to remind everyone that many religions here on Earth reference a great flood, vengeful gods and a host of other goodies. A common theme among their religions in and of itself signifies nothing. Nor does the planets name, for that matter. With all the islands the sea could be a major part of their culture and so influence how they named their planet. But we know aliens exist, so it is not impossible. In order for the alien race to be any real threat to us however (given the time it takes to traverse the stars) they would have had to broken through their tech plateau. This would be the best thing that could happen to us because we were sent here to try to accomplish exactly that. If killing the space cats brings out aliens, it would not be a problem. 

But we must focus and the problems we know exist now and that pose an immediate threat to us. Namely, the rate of advance of the cats. We have to stop it, and we have to stop it in the next decade or so, or our entire mission stands the very real chance of falling apart and there is the possibility that we are the only "humans" left and so we need to be sure that humanity thrives here. 

How soon can we have the samples we need and how long will it take to engineer the virus? Also: where exactly are we with respect to the planet?


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> But we must focus and the problems we know exist now and that pose an immediate threat to us. Namely, the rate of advance of the cats. We have to stop it, and we have to stop it in the next decade or so, or our entire mission stands the very real chance of falling apart and there is the possibility that we are the only "humans" left and so we need to be sure that humanity thrives here.



Your probe has the delta-v to maneuver to hit the planet. 



CommodoreKitty said:


> How soon can we have the samples we need and how long will it take to engineer the virus? Also: where exactly are we with respect to the planet?



You can have the samples as soon as you land and retrieve them. Which is a minimum of five years. You are currently on the same side of the sun as Shipwreck.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You can have the samples as soon as you land and retrieve them. Which is a minimum of five years. You are currently on the same side of the sun as Shipwreck.



No matter what else we decide to do, we need to collect those samples to learn as much about them as we can. We need to sample for general scientific purposes anyway. Besides, we do not _have_ to use the pathogens as soon as we get them, but we should have them stockpiled. 

I motion to send the probe to the planet to collect the necessary sample. Not that it matter, but I assume the probes can be discreet about this?


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> I motion to send the probe to the planet to collect the necessary sample. Not that it matter, but I assume the probes can be discreet about this?



There is no stealth in space. Your probes also don't have the delta-v to do anything themselves. 

Also, you can start engineering a generic virus or bacteria right now. But it will target the entire biosphere, not just them.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> There is no stealth in space.


Wasn't talking about stealth, I was talking about being able to get close enough to the cats to collect samples (or however the probe would go about collecting several different samples of DNA) without causing much fuss in the population. Earlier I proposed that we find isolated farm-like areas where we could do this easily, I trust we got the data back for that so we can do this without having an "aliens are invading" freakout. No one will pay attention to a few crazed farmers but land in the city and it just needlessly complicates things. 

And we want the biosphere intact. We don't know anything about the ecology of this world and it would be a pain to try to rebuild entire ecosystems because we were a little trigger happy with the virus. No, we should wait for the data from the samples and make a selective virus.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Wasn't talking about stealth, I was talking about being able to get close enough to the cats to collect samples (or however the probe would go about collecting several different sample of DNA) without causing much fuss in the population. Earlier I proposed that we find isolated farm-like areas where we could do this easily, I trust we got the data back for that so we can do this without having an "aliens are invading" freakout. No one will pay attention to a few crazed farmers but land in the city and it just needlessly complicates things.



You could land in the countryside, but any half-decent radar system will see you, as will their telescopes and thermals.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You could land in the countryside, but any half-decent radar system will see you, as will their telescopes and thermals.


Oh well then that doesn't really matter then. We need the samples more than we need to remain hidden and besides, all they would be able origin here doing something we can't figure out. So long as we pick isolated areas and do not spend to much time there we should get the information we need before they can respond and destroy it. 

As a precaution the probe we send should only be equipped to carry out the task of gathering samples, with all other technology being stripped. In the off chance they down the probe but it suffers (relatively) little damage, the less they know about our tech the better.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Do you plan to launch the probes now?


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

If we don't need consensus to strip a few probes down to perform a single task and send them off, then yes, the sooner the better.


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## Vikar (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, if you launched them now they'd hit the planet at .1c. You do need a consensus to wipe out all life.


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## Kommodore (Apr 30, 2010)

Vikar said:


> Well, if you launched them now they'd hit the planet at .1c.


 Ah yes that is right, we aren't there yet. T-5 years and all that. In that case, I vote for a timeskip, as we really cannot get much else done until we do that. 

And on second though, during those five years we should develop a bioweapon anyway, even if it would affect the entire planet. You know what they say, it is better to have a planet-sterilizing bioweapon and not need it than than need a planet-sterilizing bioweapon and not have it


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## Vikar (May 1, 2010)

If there are no objections, we will timeskip, then.

T-3: your probe makes a close pass at the planet. You detect thermal blooms in the atmosphere and increased military chatter.


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## A Concerned Citizen (May 1, 2010)

I don't object...


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## Browder (May 1, 2010)

Vikar said:


> If there are no objections, we will timeskip, then.
> 
> T-3: your probe makes a close pass at the planet. You detect thermal blooms in the atmosphere and increased military chatter.



I'll ask the obvious question, then. What are they talking about?


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

Lol space cats are nuking themselves. Makes our lives easier. 

Plan is the same: we need samples as soon as we can get them. Given the heightened military activity, we should take care to actively keep track of their military formation so our probes can avoid them.


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## Browder (May 1, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Lol space cats are nuking themselves. Makes our lives easier.
> 
> Plan is the same: we need samples as soon as we can get them. Given the heightened military activity, we should take care to actively keep track of their military formation so our probes can avoid them.



Fine. I still say we try to figure what the hell happened 2500 years ago though. It's not just this cultural myth, the albedo rose. Something was beamng down radiation on the planet.

Also I want to capture some alive, preferably someone of fairly good standing in his community/communities that won't be missed. We can't be stealthy entering the atmosphere but we might be able to sneak a few on once we're on planet. After we grow some babies, we can do the body-snatchers thing on them. Insta-spies.


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

Browder said:


> Fine. I still say we try to figure what the hell happened 2500 years ago though. It's not just this cultural myth, the albedo rose. Something was beamng down radiation on the planet.


Browder: albedo is a measure of surface reflectivity. Many things can raise the albedo of a planet, an Ice Age being a prime example. Ice reflects light, increasing albedo, cooling the planet further, making more ice etc. 

It has nothing to do with beaming things down. That being said, it would not hurt to investigate their past.


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## Browder (May 1, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Browder: albedo is a measure of surface reflectivity. Many things can raise the albedo of a planet, an Ice Age being a prime example. Ice reflects light, increasing albedo, cooling the planet further, making more ice etc.
> 
> It has nothing to do with beaming things down. That being said, it would not hurt to investigate their past.



I still think this is to much of a coincidence. Who the hell names a whole planet 'Shipwreck'? That's just not normal for any culture to do that. We named are planet Earth because it's a word synonymous for the soil we walk on. That's logical. The only reason they'd name their planet that is if it was really important.

Whatever. This speculating isn't getting us anywhere. Continue with sample collection and virus engineering. I still want a live one though.


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## A Concerned Citizen (May 1, 2010)

So, its obvious they have the technological capacity for nukes by this point. :V

All rather morbid, horrific joking aside, this nuclear exchange poses a serious threat to all our different goals. We can't colonize an irradiated planet, nor can we establish any sort of democratic relations with nearly dying cat people. We need to contain this before it war spreads and we lose all hope of gathering more resources.

I motion that we carve "Stop This War! - Sincerely God" into their moon in the most recognized language on Shipwreck with lasers as soon as logistically possible.


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## Browder (May 1, 2010)

A Concerned Citizen said:


> So, its obvious they have the technological capacity for nukes by this point. :V
> 
> All rather morbid, horrific joking aside, this nuclear exchange poses a serious threat to all our different goals. We can't colonize an irradiated planet, nor can we establish any sort of democratic relations with nearly dying cat people. We need to contain this before it war spreads and we lose all hope of gathering more resources.
> 
> I motion that we carve "Stop This War! - Sincerely God" into their moon in the most recognized language on Shipwreck with lasers as soon as logistically possible.



DWe're making a virus now. Bio-chemincal warfare is something we have over them. Furthermore once we get some good genetic samples will upload all the human brains we grow into a native body. No need to destroy anyone's environment.


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## Vikar (May 1, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> Lol space cats are nuking themselves. Makes our lives easier.



It is not a nuclear exchange. The blooms are more likely to be lasers being fired into space.


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## Pipsqueak (May 1, 2010)

The thread was how to conquer a planet. And considering that humanity has apparently suffered some sort of bad fate behind us, we have a very large imperative to secure a new planet for humanity.

As such, the best method to secure the planet is one that exposes our ship to as little risk as possible.

First off, what's the maximum range that our main laser could be used against ground targets from? For example, any target that showed electromagnetic emissions consistent with large or medium scale power generation? Ten light seconds ought to put us out of range of any weapons they have- unless within 5 years they'll have developed a need to engage targets at an interplanetary distance. Even than, our point defense ought to be able to handle any missiles that are literally thousands of years out of date. 

As our ship carries a good number of weapons, we have to assume it was intended with conflict in mind. That said, just how damage resistant is it?

My vote is that we find a rock somewhere in the system, of say, a half mile in diameter, and plunge it into one of their oceans. The effect I'm looking for is a global winter that ought to prevent the existence of large scale agriculture for say a century or more- without completely destroying the ecosystem like an asteroid killer would. For civilizations that do survive via agriculture that uses say- sun lamps, we wait ten years and than over the course of a day- systematically pick off each and every one of those power supplies. The wait is to let the initial chaos drive them into a self destructive fight for resources.

Any large scale thermal or electromagnetic emissions that indicate their of a "man" made nature would be systematically destroyed. The goal not being to render them extinct, simply to force them away from a civilized existence. That way when we do decide to settle, say a thousand years later, they'll be much easier to subdue and bring under humanities control. Of course, any civilizations which took to worship of the "Vengeful sky gods" would not be harmed unless they attempted activities such as electrical generation. All other civilizations would be prevented from forming cities of any size.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

Pipsqueak said:


> The thread was how to conquer a planet. And considering that humanity has apparently suffered some sort of bad fate behind us, we have a very large imperative to secure a new planet for humanity.
> 
> As such, the best method to secure the planet is one that exposes our ship to as little risk as possible.
> 
> ...



Another warmonger. All other options should be discussed before resorting to violence atleast. Wiping out another civilization shouldn't be taken so lightly. I see our crew as majority conquerers who don't care for other beings at all. Whilst I would put my own survival first, putting humanity before their culture doesn't seem logically... correct. Every action that is being done in the name war is for survival it seems. A pre emptive strike, whilst prehaps the best for survival, is also ethically wrong. We're not robots, we're human. Maybe not physically, but mentally. Are we really going to take all of these lives without an attempt at peace beforehand?

Just because the topic name is "Let's conquer a planet" doesn't mean we have to. This is about the decisions we make according to another civilization. If I actually wanted to conquer and kill everyone, I'd assassinate a few political figures with hitcats and leave behind evidence that the other alliance did it, therefore causing a huge war, killing off most of the populous which then we could come and help a few countries survive to gain loyalty and cause them to like us, meaning that they would let humans into their countries.



			
				Vikar said:
			
		

> and advanced biotechnology labs.



What are the capabilities of these labs?


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## Vikar (May 1, 2010)

Truth said:


> What are the capabilities of these labs?



It would be better to ask me specific things you want, and I'll tell you if you can do it.



Pipsqueak said:


> First off, what's the maximum range that our main laser could be used  against ground targets from?



About half a light minute, max. 



Pipsqueak said:


> As our ship carries a good number of weapons, we have to assume it was  intended with conflict in mind. That said, just how damage resistant is  it?



It was designed for interstellar travel, it just carries nukes because  it is a bad idea not to. Your laser is actually for communications. A nuke will kill you. 



Pipsqueak said:


> My vote is that we find a rock somewhere in the system, of say, a half  mile in diameter, and plunge it into one of their oceans.



Feasible.


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

Vikar said:


> It is not a nuclear exchange. The blooms are more likely to be lasers being fired into space.



Are you kidding me? 5 years? Were pretty fucked now. 

I move to launch the bioweapons as soon as (safely) possible now. Maybe they didn't jump 100 years in 5 with their medicine as well. Maybe a a few rocks too if that doesn't work.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

Vikar said:


> It would be better to ask me specific things you want, and I'll tell you if you can do it.



Would we be able to use it to make Humans and Space Cats compatible with breeding? Hopefully without too many side effects. With that, integration of Humanity peacefully would be easier, and hopefully combat any potential racism.


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## HoloXerxes (May 1, 2010)

Uh, has anyone even tried talking to them? It seems that everyone here is for causing some horrible tragedy to befall these creatures with next to no knowledge about them or their culture! What the hell? We dont even need to stop here! We could just say hi, do a sun scoop and be on our way. But no! We have to kill an entire intelligent species and the the first one we've even met! 
HOLY SHIT! Wheres the Tylenol.


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## Vikar (May 1, 2010)

Truth said:


> Would we be able to use it to make Humans and Space Cats compatible with breeding? Hopefully without too many side effects. With that, integration of Humanity peacefully would be easier, and hopefully combat any potential racism.



You mean to interbreed the two species? Yes, you could do that, but the result would be neither Human or Space Cat.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

HoloXerxes said:


> Uh, has anyone even tried talking to them? It seems that everyone here is for causing some horrible tragedy to befall these creatures with next to no knowledge about them or their culture! What the hell? We dont even need to stop here! We could just say hi, do a sun scoop and be on our way. But no! We have to kill an entire intelligent species and the the first one we've even met!
> HOLY SHIT! Wheres the Tylenol.



+1 follower of the way of peace.



Vikar said:


> You mean to interbreed the two species? Yes, you  could do that, but the result would be neither Human or Space  Cat.



I guess we need to conduct testing... Should we go the evil route and abduct someone or the peaceful route and grab a volunteer? We can decide depending on their reactions later if we decide to communicate with them.


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## Vikar (May 1, 2010)

More information from the probe.

They have a small base on their nearest moon (they have three). Probably big enough to support about 20 of them.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

Vikar said:


> More information from the probe.
> 
> They have a small base on their nearest moon (they have three). Probably big enough to support about 20 of them.



Maybe it will be a good idea to talk to the guys on the moon first. A "gut feeling." If we get to agree on communication.


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

Get a probe in plain sight and move it incrementally closer to the planet, specifically the laser basses. To basic evasive maneuvers to make it seem like we don't want to get hit, and see how far away they shoot at us. We need to find the maximum effective range of their weapons. I think it is clear they are expecting company.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

[00:27] <Xerxes> How awareof us are they Vik?
...
[00:28] <Vikar> They did take a shot at your probe - With lasers
...
[00:28] <Truth> Which country shot it? We should complain.
...
[00:30] <Vikar> S2 shot it

Passing information for everyone.



Vikar said:


> The northern socialist states are most in line with  you ideologically. However, they are rather xenophobic. They do have  significant military presences, consisting of a small corp of highly  trained specialists and then a larger amount of citizen soldiers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reposting important information so you guys don't have to backtrack.


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## Vikar (May 1, 2010)

Everyone: I am on IRC a lot. Talk to me there.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

More information keeping

 [00:32] <Xerxes> Well what kind of culture do they have? 
  ...
  [00:34] <Vikar> The cultures are generally less trusting
  [00:34] <Vikar> More focused on self
  [00:34] <Vikar> There are no major gift-giving holidays, for  example
  [00:35] <Vikar> From what you can glean
  [00:35] <Xerxes> Do they function as families?
  [00:35] <Vikar> Yes, until the age of 16 or so.
  [00:35] <Ck> I'm telling you. Extermanitus is the only answer.
  [00:35] <Vikar> They reach physical maturity at 11 or so
  [00:35] <Xerxes> this planets years or ours?
  [00:36] <Vikar> They get citizenship at around 14
  ...
  [00:36] <Vikar> Yours
  [00:36] <Xerxes> do they have art?
  ...
  [00:36] <Xerxes> music,  language, paint
  [00:36] <Vikar> Yes
  [00:36] <Ck> Why does it matter if they have art?
  [00:37] <Vikar> But painting is less common
  [00:37] <Ck> You trying to communicate with them or something
  [00:37] <Truth> You never know CK
  [00:37] <Vikar> Sculpting in rock is much more common
  [00:37] <Vikar> As is metalwork
  [00:37] <Vikar> And drawing
  [00:37] <Vikar> They have fur, you see
  [00:37] <Truth> Do they have an honour system in war at all?
  [00:37] <Xerxes> all we are saying is give peace a chance Ck
  [00:37] <Vikar> There are laws of war
  [00:38] <Vikar> Don't mistreat prisoners, don't shoot people who  surrender, don't give false surrender
  ...
  [00:38] <Ck> We could communicate through a probe
  [00:38] <Vikar> Try not to kill civvies
  [00:38] <Vikar> Ck, time lag
  [00:38] <Ck> if they didn't blow it out of the sky
  [00:38] <Ck> like the warring bastards they are
  [00:38] <Vikar> You can communicate from where you are right now
  [00:38] <Vikar> With 90 day time lag
  ...
  [00:38] <Xerxes> think they would understand the 100 primes  welcome card?
  [00:38] <Ck> I thought we were in system now?
  [00:38] <Vikar> Yes
  [00:38] <Vikar> Ck, no
  [00:38] <Vikar> Your probe made a close pass
  [00:38] <Vikar> You are still three years out
  [00:39] <Ck> Did we not timeskip
  [00:39] * Ck looks at thread again
  [00:39] <Vikar> You did
  [00:39] <Xerxes> I think we should try the 100 prime hello
  [00:39] <Vikar> Two years
  [00:39] <Vikar> Something important happened
  [00:39] <Vikar> So I stopped the timeskip
  [00:39] <Vikar> Xerxes, you know their language
  [00:39] <Xerxes> yeah but the 100 primes would probably cause less  panic
  [00:40] <Ck> You just don't want this to be too easy
  [00:40] <Ck> i see what ur doing here
  [00:40] <Xerxes> If peace is the harder option, we try harder for  peace
  [00:40] <Ck> Yeah, except, these are war mongering aliens
  [00:41] <Ck> who advanced their war tech faster in ten years than  we did in 60
  [00:41] <Vikar> No, Ck
  [00:41] <Ck> How long could a peace last?
  [00:41] <Vikar> You just have more up-to-date data now
  [00:42] <Xerxes> I honestly think that for us, first contact would  end war
  [00:42] <Ck> In the ten years we have been traveling,
  [00:42] <Ck> how much time has passed for them?
  [00:42] <Ck> Relativistic effects could not be that large at .1c
  [00:42] <Vikar> Pulling up my table
  [00:42] <Ck> could they?
  [00:42] * Ck does not know
  [00:43] <Vikar> It is not significant
  [00:43] <Vikar> Maybe an extra couple of days
 [00:44] <Vikar> They advanced about twice as fast as us in  military tech
 [00:44] <Vikar> But not much at all in biotech
 ...
 [00:45] <Ck> They could not have covered the entire planet's  airspace in a few years
 [00:45] <Ck> how hard would it be to get a probe on the ground?
 [00:45] <Vikar> Not at all
 [00:46] <Ck> So the bioweapons in still an option
 [00:46] <Xerxes> Um, why dont we try radio contact first
 [00:46] <Ck> did we get any data back from the sample-collecting  probe?
 [00:46] <Vikar> Ck, with the right bioweapon, you don't need a  probe to insert it
 [00:46] <Vikar> You can put spores in space in decaying orbits and  they'll come down intact
 [00:46] <Vikar> Ck, you never launched a sample collection probe
 [00:46] <Ck> You need to be physically close to the planet so way
 [00:47] <Ck> not necessarily on the surface
 [00:48] <Ck> I thought we launched that probe? Why didn't we?
 [00:48] <Vikar> Because it would have hit the planet at .1c, Ck
 [00:48] <Ck> Oh shit yeah
 [00:48] <Ck> We need the weapon first
 [00:48] <Ck> and we need to get it placed first
 [00:48] <Ck> then we can talk to them
 [00:49] <Ck> if things break down, we will still have the  advantage
[00:49] <Xerxes> I think truth has a point with that moon base  idea
[00:50] <Xerxes> but they may belong to one country in particular  and that country may hide it
[00:50] <Vikar> If everyone here votes "yes" for timeskip, then we  can
...
[00:50] <Xerxes> What we should do is send a very big very loud  radio signal to the whole planet
...
[00:50] <Ck> Do we already have a general bioweapon made?
[00:51] <Ck> the one that attacks the whole ecosystem?
[00:51] <Ck> Also: we should NOT get our ship anywhere near the  planet
[00:51] <Ck> only communicate through probes once we get in system
[00:51] <Vikar> Why?
[00:52] <Ck> So if they want to blow something up
[00:52] <Ck> they blow up the probe, and not us :\
[00:52] <Vikar> They are going to see you
[00:52] <Ck> They are going to see us in orbit around their gas  gaints if their optical telescopes are strong enough andthey already  know where we are, sure
[00:53] <Ck> but they won't be able to do anything about it
[00:53] <Xerxes> Vikar, do we have the capability to send a very  very powerful radio signal?
[00:53] <Vikar> Yes, Xerxes
[00:54] <Vikar> Ck, they will see you decel
[00:54] <Ck> Do our probes have that ability?
[00:54] <Ck> What will they see, exactly?
[00:54] <Vikar> To send radio?
[00:54] <Ck> What does a decel look like?
[00:54] <Vikar> Yes, they can send radio
[00:54] <Vikar> Ck, they'll see a new star in the sky
[00:54] <Ck> Then we move from that position
[00:54] <Vikar> Meaning that you accel
[00:54] <Ck> we are a small ship if we hide behind a planet they  will lose us
[00:54] <Vikar> Giving yourself away
[00:55] <Vikar> Whenever you maneuver, they see you
[00:55] <Ck> Not at .1c
[00:55] <Ck> slower
[00:55] <Vikar> And they'll see you radiate
[00:55] <Xerxes> I say we send them A very powerful 100 primes, we  decel in go to some point in the system a safe difference from the  planet and send them our coords in the system
[00:55] <Vikar> I know, Ck
[00:55] <Vikar> But they'll see your torch online
[00:55] <Xerxes> they will see us but we will be far enough away  that they cannot attack
[00:55] <Ck> Or are we stuck in a straight line more or less?
[00:55] <Vikar> Yes
[00:55] <Vikar> If you wait another...
[00:56] <Vikar> Six months to decel, you can be on the other side  of their sun
[00:56] <Ck> The that sounds like a plan
[00:56] <Ck> they should not know where we are
[00:56] <Ck> they should not know where we are
[00:56] <Xerxes> Vikar is my idea viable?
[00:56] <Ck> Though I still doubt they could do anything about it
[00:56] <Truth> Of course, people would have to vote for it too.
[00:56] <Ck> it is the safest thing to do.
[00:57] <Vikar> Xerxes, your idea is viable


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## HoloXerxes (May 1, 2010)

I say we send them A 100 prime greeting card powerful enough for every radio on the planet to pick up. Then when we decelerate we in go to  some point in the system beyond their weapon range and send them our co-ords in the system so they can see that we are actually here. Then we tell them we are here *peacefully.*


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

HoloXerxes said:


> I say we send them A 100 prime greeting card powerful enough for every radio on the planet to pick up. Then when we decelerate we in go to  some point in the system beyond their weapon range and send them our co-ords in the system so they can see that we are actually here. Then we tell them we are here *peacefully.*


  No, _very bad idea._ Telling them where we are, that is. Yes, we should make contact first, but only _after_ we have a bioweapon made, with the ability to deliver and their weapon systems analyzed so we can deliver the weapon to the planet safely. We should not tell them where we are however, as we do not know the maximum effective range of their weapons and even if they couldn't hurt us it is better they do not know where we are. The less they know about us the better.

EDIT: I motion to timeskip only under the condition that we take the extra time to decel without being detected.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

More infokeeping 

[01:12] <Ck> It may decoherebut it would be better than a radio
...
[01:14] <Xerxes> Vikar, couldtheyre lasers be powerfulenough to  reach us if we werein the outer system?
[01:14] <Vikar> Maybe
[01:14] <Vikar> They did nothit your probe
...
[01:15] <Xerxes> How longwould it take the laser to getto us if we  were that far out?
[01:15] <Truth> Not very long I would guess.
...
[01:15] <Truth> Lasers are the longest range weapons inspace.
[01:15] <Truth> Effective longest range that is.
[01:16] <Xerxes> Still, wecould be a few light hours away
[01:16] <Truth> Missiles would be shot down easily...
[01:16] <Vikar> Missiles too
[01:16] <Vikar> Bomb pumpedlasers
[01:16] <Xerxes> truth answered that for me
[01:16] <Vikar> Xerxes, it would take several seconds
[01:16] <Vikar> It depends onwhere you are
[01:16] <Xerxes> for a laser to go light hours?
[01:17] <Vikar> Oh, lighthours?
[01:17] <Vikar> Then hours
[01:17] <Xerxes> yeah
[01:17] <Vikar> That's why you randomwalk
[01:17] <Vikar> They can't hit you
[01:18] <Xerxes> If we takeup a zig zaggy orbit around one of the  outer planets we could send then our coords without danger?
[01:18] <Vikar> Yes
[01:18] <Vikar> But you don't need to
[01:18] <Vikar> Because they would see you
[01:18] <Ck> Or they could not know where we are
[01:18] <Ck> and we would not have to worry about that
[01:19] <Xerxes> What are the planets in this system like?
[01:19] <Vikar> I gave a description
[01:19] <Vikar> In the OP

With permission. =)

[01:24] <Xerxes> who taught this commadorecat guy negotiations? fucking Stalin?
[01:24] <Truth> Yes =p
[01:24] <Truth> CK is commadore =p
[01:24] <Truth> I think.
[01:25] <Xerxes> that makes sence
[01:25] <Xerxes> he's a Nazihe is
[01:26] <Truth> Corto is Stalin.
[01:26] <Truth> So CK can't be Stalin.
...
[01:31] <Xerxes> Ck shall nowbe known as Scalin
[01:31] <Xerxes> cause hes Stalin with scales
...
[01:35] <Ck|out> !
[01:35] <Ck|out> I am not anazi.
[01:35] <Xerxes> You are!


It's all in good fun. =)

It's hippies verses genocides! Who will win the vote?


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## HoloXerxes (May 1, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> No, _very bad idea._ Telling them where we are, that is. Yes, we should make contact first, but only _after_ we have a bioweapon made, with the ability to deliver and their weapon systems analyzed so we can deliver the weapon to the planet safely. We should not tell them where we are however, as we do not know the maximum effective range of their weapons and even if they couldn't hurt us it is better they do not know where we are. The less they know about us the better.




If we take up a zig zaging orbital pattern around the outermost gas giant they wont be able to hit us with any energy weapons and missiles could easily be shot down. 

In terms of waiting to have a bioweapon, if we can work out some kind of peace we wont even need it. If we cant work out a peace we could just leave. Even if we cant make any constructive contact we could just leave, we don't desperately  need this planet for resources. The ship is sun powered and Earth is fine! Completely destroying the first intelligent life we come across is so mind-bogglingly stupid I have a hard time even putting it into thought!


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

HoloXerxes said:


> If we take up a zig zaging orbital pattern around the outermost gas giant they wont be able to hit us with any energy weapons and missiles could easily be shot down.
> 
> In terms of waiting to have a bioweapon, if we can work out some kind of peace we wont even need it. If we cant work out a peace we could just leave. Even if we cant make any constructive contact we could just leave, we don't desperately  need this planet for resources. The ship is sun powered and Earth is fine! Completely destroying the first intelligent life we come across is so mind-bogglingly stupid I have a hard time even putting it into thought!



Good point about the possibility of just going away if they don't like us. We shouldn't just kill them if they don't like us, we could move on and hope they actually become mature someday.


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

HoloXerxes said:


> If we take up a zig zaging orbital pattern around the outermost gas giant they wont be able to hit us with any energy weapons and missiles could easily be shot down.
> 
> In terms of waiting to have a bioweapon, if we can work out some kind of peace we wont even need it. If we cant work out a peace we could just leave. Even if we cant make any constructive contact we could just leave, we don't desperately  need this planet for resources. The ship is sun powered and Earth is fine! Completely destroying the first intelligent life we come across is so mind-bogglingly stupid I have a hard time even putting it into thought!



We can't just leave! It has taken us 50,000 years to get here, and we were sent to try to break the technological plateau we were trapped in, with the secondary objective of establishing the first extrasolar colony. Earth stopped contacting us 20,000 years ago and not many things would interrupt 30,000 years of constant communication. It is entirely possible that we are the last remaining 'humans'. As such it is our responsibility to make sure humanity continues, and to do that we need to colonize that planet. The cats _will not_ tolerate an alien species settling on their planet. In the long run, that is. 

They are a violent race, maybe no more so than us but that is hardly relevant. We have every reason to believe that they will oppress or destroy us as soon as we make ourselves vulnerable to them. It may not happen in the first generation, but it is likely  to happen eventually. 

The point is, to _ensure_ humanity continues, we need to kill a lot of cats. If we were still in contact with Earth and knew everything is fine, that would be one thing. But we don't, and our responsibility lies with the human race, and not with the space cats. Realistically speaking, either they are going to kill us or we are going to have to kill them to keep them from killing us. It is brutal but that is the nature of things when you start playing with the survival of entire species. 

That is not to say we should not contact them first, by all means send out a probe and try to get their side of the issue first. But we must take every precaution and be able to deliver our weapon as soon as possible if things break down. 

Really, the smartest thing to do would be to kill them anyway. The logic is simple: let them live and they may or they may not pose a threat to human colonization in this system. Kill them and they pose no threat to us. Keep in mind that soon we will not even have the power to kill them if we desired to and we will be completely under their control, for better or for worse. 

So the question is: how important is the survival of the human race to you?

but yeah it is still pretty messed up


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

Theme song of the good guys, who don't want to kill the Cats

Theme of the bad guys, who want to kill them all.

=)



CommodoreKitty said:


> So the question is: how important is the survival of the human race to  you?



Not very. I care about those who are alive at the moment: The Cats were here first, I don't want to take anything from them that they don't willingly give.

[03:15] <Vikar> You peopleknow what VN machines are,right?
[03:15] <Vikar> Self replicating factories
[03:15] <Vikar> Given sometime, you can outmatch thecats immensely in industrial capacity
...
[03:17] <Vikar> VN machinesare what make you commies
[03:17] <Vikar> They makeyou nearly post-scarcity
[03:17] <Ck> so like star trekreplicators
[03:17] <Vikar> Yes
...
[03:19] <Vikar> VN machinesare deployables
[03:20] <Vikar> You dropthem down on asteroids andmoons and such


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

Truth said:


> Theme of the bad guys, who want to kill them all.





I would like to change the plans for the bioweapon: I agree that simply killing them is in bad taste, to say the least. An alternative that I feel works just as well and is less evil is to introduce a retrovirus that either sterilizes or greatly reduces the fertility of their species. In the way their population can be reduced to "manageable" numbers in a generation or two, without the need to kill a single one. In the latter option their species does not die out, we can colonize the planet and accomplish both of our objectives and we kill nothing in the process.

You can make the point that we do not have the 'right' to impose such a change on their species, which is nominally true, but I believe that much like any survival situation someone's 'rights' are going to be infringed upon. It is a bad thing to sterilize the cats, I am aware of this. However, humanity going extinct is _also_ very bad, worse than reducing their fertility in my option.


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## Truth (May 1, 2010)

CommodoreKitty said:


> I would like to change the plans for the bioweapon: I agree that simply killing them is in bad taste, to say the least. An alternative that I feel works just as well and is less evil is to introduce a retrovirus that either sterilizes or greatly reduces the fertility of their species. In the way their population can be reduced to "manageable" numbers in a generation or two, without the need to kill a single one. In the latter option their species does not die out, we can colonize the planet and accomplish both of our objectives and we kill nothing in the process.
> 
> You can make the point that we do not have the 'right' to impose such a change on their species, which is nominally true, but I believe that much like any survival situation someone's 'rights' are going to be infringed upon. It is a bad thing to sterilize the cats, I am aware of this. However, humanity going extinct is _also_ very bad, worse than reducing their fertility in my option.



It's about opinions really. I believe that steralizing most of their species is is unethical, and we shouldn't prevent their species from growing to invade with our own.


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## Kommodore (May 1, 2010)

Apparently we can colonize most of the system by the time they match our tech. Or thereabouts. As a result of this revaltion, there is no need at all to act in any way against the cats, as they are not and never will be a threat to us. So, it would probably be best if we make plans to colonize the other small rocky planet in the system and more or less ignore the presence of the cats. We can still contact them, but there not longer is any impetus to meddle in their affairs.

See everything worked out no one needs to call me a nazi anymore yes?


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## Vikar (May 2, 2010)

In any case, when you're ready, I've got a timeskip for you.


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## Truth (May 2, 2010)

Timeskip just to get things going again.


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## Vikar (May 2, 2010)

T-0 days: you begin your decel burn. Cat nations everywhere look up and see a new star in the sky. Military chatter drastically increases, including OTPs. Military forces go on alert across the planet. 

T+7 days: you begin receiving radio and laser transmissions from the planet. Mostly messages like "who are you?" and "why are you here?", but there are some "go away" messages, and one "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"


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## Truth (May 4, 2010)

I declare that we must capture some of their species and examine their behaviour! I will decide what to do with them after. The method of which to capture them however... I don't know. Does anyone have an idea?


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## Vikar (May 4, 2010)

Don't be shy, people. You won't be killed for making a post.


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## Dasaki (May 6, 2010)

I have to agree with Truth, we need to capture atleast one cat, preferably one that no one will notice is gone so as not to cause a panic


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## Attaman (May 6, 2010)

One?  Bull fucking shit, we're capturing a couple dozen from each culture we can.  You're just as likely to get Mr. Pussifest with your individual capture as you are to grab Mrs. "KILL MAIM BURN!", and unlike you lot I'm not about ready to go "Oh hey dat one's cool lets be buddy buddy" should we get one that isn't aggressive.

Oh, and for suggesting the guys who want Humanity's continued survival are to be akin to Adolf Hitler I'm now going to initiate the Rites of Awakening on Venerable Intelligence Corto.  

We (Humanity) were exploring the stars while the Kilrathi were learning to spell their names!


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## Browder (May 6, 2010)

I agree with Attaman. We should be taking at least one major representative from each nation. Our presence is a Shipwreckwide phenomenon and we should treat it as such.


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## Truth (May 6, 2010)

Attaman said:


> One?  Bull fucking shit, we're capturing a couple dozen from each culture we can.  You're just as likely to get Mr. Pussifest with your individual capture as you are to grab Mrs. "KILL MAIM BURN!", and unlike you lot I'm not about ready to go "Oh hey dat one's cool lets be buddy buddy" should we get one that isn't aggressive.
> 
> Oh, and for suggesting the guys who want Humanity's continued survival are to be akin to Adolf Hitler I'm now going to initiate the Rites of Awakening on Venerable Intelligence Corto.
> 
> We (Humanity) were exploring the stars while the Kilrathi were learning to spell their names!



A dozen, maybe 20 will do I think. Most preferably as different as possible to see how they react to eachother whilst on the ship.


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## Ozriel (May 6, 2010)

A Nuke.
There are weapons of mass destruction on their planet.


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## Vikar (May 6, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> There are weapons of mass destruction on their planet.



This is quite true.


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## Attaman (May 6, 2010)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> A Nuke.
> There are weapons of mass destruction on their planet.


  But Zeke, it's so much more fun to specifically tailor bioweapons.  Furthermore, we have orbital superiority:  Madagascar can't close its ports on the sky!


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## HoloXerxes (May 6, 2010)

I say we send a message telling them our story (without revealing anything potentially dangerous) and wait till we enter the system. Once we arrive, we send another message asking for ambassadors from each of the nations.


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## Truth (May 9, 2010)

I was hoping Madagascar would post, but he seems to have disappeared.

I've already mentioned that we should capture some cats, so I think we need a vote on whether or not we should. If the vote succeeds we can capture them by... we need to think of that. "Computer, what resources do we have to use for the possible capture of a bipedal organism?"

I think we should have a detailed description or an image of the cat(s) we capture too.


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## Vikar (May 9, 2010)

Truth said:


> Computer, what resources do we have to use for the possible capture of a bipedal organism?



You have four large planetary landers, fission powered and including manipulator arms and a sample return capsule that could fit a space cat. 



Truth said:


> I think we should have a detailed description or an image of the cat(s) we capture too.



Does anyone here want to draw a space cat?


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## Truth (May 9, 2010)

Vikar said:


> You have four large planetary landers, fission powered and including manipulator arms and a sample return capsule that could fit a space cat.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone here want to draw a space cat?



How big are the planetary landers and the manipulator arms? Are they suitable to grab one of them and place it into the capsule unharmed?

Other than those 2 small concerns. I think we got ourselves a cat trapper.


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## Vikar (May 9, 2010)

Truth said:


> How big are the planetary landers and the manipulator arms? Are they suitable to grab one of them and place it into the capsule unharmed?



Yes, they could grab a cat and load it into the capsule. Whether the cat will be unharmed is not certain.


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## Wreth (May 9, 2010)

Declare war on all non terran life.


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## xNeonNekox (May 13, 2010)

I say we take over the planet with a false treaty plans according to are planets coustoms then send a few patrols to the planet to see if we are capible of blendin in with the people that live there If so we could possibly gain the means to take over key points on the planet what would ensure minimal defense against an all assault then make are demands instead of the terms of the treaty

This plan hangs on a few things that must be accomplished
A. We need to be able to blend in
B. We need to find out the intellegnace of are enemy to see if its possible for them to out smart us and release a hid-in back up plan
C. It has to be a move done quickly as to turn the fear of an unknown object into a false sense of security as a alien force is actually watching out for them from so emanate threat we can falsely warn them about


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## Truth (May 13, 2010)

xNeonNekox said:


> I say we take over the planet with a false treaty plans according to are planets coustoms then send a few patrols to the planet to see if we are capible of blendin in with the people that live there If so we could possibly gain the means to take over key points on the planet what would ensure minimal defense against an all assault then make are demands instead of the terms of the treaty
> 
> This plan hangs on a few things that must be accomplished
> A. We need to be able to blend in
> ...



We could do C by giving then Lasange. But I'm not sure about about your plans after that/


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## Attaman (May 13, 2010)

Here's a thing:  Being cloak and dagger is best when _it has no relevance to PR._  Us hiding our appearance, intentions, and so on? That shit's bad to have the truth slips out, because it causes conspiracy theories aplenty.


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## xNeonNekox (May 14, 2010)

Truth said:


> We could do C by giving then Lasange. But I'm not sure about about your plans after that/


Yeh Just Throwing something out there for use to work with you know :3


Attaman said:


> Here's a thing:  Being cloak and dagger is best when _it has no relevance to PR._  Us hiding our appearance, intentions, and so on? That shit's bad to have the truth slips out, because it causes conspiracy theories aplenty.


I see your point, maybe give a revised version of what you would do instead
I tend to try these strads more often due to the fact that I like the challenge of infiltration when its not an option


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