# Where do you draw the line with animal cruelty?



## DepressedNutella (Dec 11, 2012)

I mean, yeah, we have to kill animals sometimes. But shit like this - isn't it going a little too far?


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## BouncyOtter (Dec 11, 2012)

Well, that was incredibly depressing to watch.  There are some terribly cruel people in this world.


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## Percy (Dec 11, 2012)

BouncyOtter said:


> Well, that was incredibly depressing to watch.  There are some terribly cruel people in this world.


After reading some things earlier, I can definitely confirm this. Plenty of horror stories out there.

But yeah, that's waaaaay over the line... beyond cruel.


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## Ricky (Dec 11, 2012)

I didn't watch it XD

A thread seems to pop up for each Youtube video that shows it ;3

Yes, animal cruelty is bad.


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## Gr8fulFox (Dec 11, 2012)

I guess it all has to do with how you define 'animal cruelty'. For example, growing up on the East Coast, I have a love for seafood and fishing. One of my favorite things to eat is blue crabs, which are traditionally steamed alive. Actually, this came up in another thread a couple months back, but I'm too lazy to find it. Is that cruel? Research has shown that crabs react to pain, but the jury is still out on whether they interpret the pain as "AHHH THIS HURTS!!'. And fishing. Sometimes I use live eels as bait for striped bass; the best way to fish with live eels is to grip them firmly, and whack them across a hard object to break their back. This way, they won't wrap themselves around any underwater object and force me to cut my line, losing my bait & rig. Is that cruel? Seeing as the eel is just going to be eaten anyway, I don't think so, but you may have differing opinions. And I can't comment on the YouTube video as it has been removed.


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## Milo (Dec 11, 2012)

Ricky said:


> ;3



I'm a little scared that you winked... are you seductively saying animal cruelty is bad?!


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## Ricky (Dec 11, 2012)

Milo said:


> I'm a little scared that you winked... are you seductively saying animal cruelty is bad?!



That was more of a sarcastic wink. I got tired of these threads after the second one, or so. I'll be the first to admit, I like things with shock value but I really don't want to watch another animal cruelty video. It's a furry forum so these threads are inevitable and hence overplayed, and there's nothing shocking about it anymore.


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## Harbinger (Dec 11, 2012)

Zero tolerance. Fine with cattle and such being ate but they shouldnt suffer in anyway.


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## Validuz (Dec 11, 2012)

I'm a meat-eater. But They shouldnt be mistreated untill they get on my plate. I don't like the whole hording bs that seems to be the case with most cattle-farms.(If that's what it's called.) where they stack them next to eachother with nowhere to move. Or given an unpainfull death.
I can understand why it's done. (maximum profits.) But it's not even in the same league as people who buys dogs/animals just to torture them. Those people need to go to a special place of hell where childmolestors and people who give out parkingtickets go to.


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## sunandshadow (Dec 11, 2012)

I personally think that there are currently too many laws against animal cruelty - animals are property, and it's just inconsistent to be allowed to kill and eat animals but not keep them alive and fed and use them in fights or as sex toys.  The only really positive thing I can say about animal cruelty laws is that they are not as much of a fucked up mess as intellectual property laws.


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## BRN (Dec 11, 2012)

Welfare cheques.

keeping those animals alive. :c


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Dec 11, 2012)

sunandshadow said:


> I personally think that there are currently too many laws against animal cruelty - animals are property, and it's just inconsistent to be allowed to kill and eat animals but not keep them alive and fed and use them in fights or as sex toys.  The only really positive thing I can say about animal cruelty laws is that they are not as much of a fucked up mess as intellectual property laws.


This is just disgusting. You also miss the entire point of animal cruelty laws, which exist to reduce suffering. But "Ohhh no, we're entitled to do as we please with these mere objects. How dare you tell me what to do with my property!" 

The very idea that animals are 'just property' is one of the main causes of animal abuse, even more problematic than the religious element.


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## ZerX (Dec 11, 2012)

what was in that video anyway? youtube removed it before I could watch it.
anyway most rapists, murderers, and others start by torturing animals and then progress to raping, torturing and murdering ppl.


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## Harbinger (Dec 11, 2012)

sunandshadow said:


> I personally think that there are currently too many laws against animal cruelty - animals are property, and it's just inconsistent to be allowed to kill and eat animals but not keep them alive and fed and use them in fights or as sex toys.  The only really positive thing I can say about animal cruelty laws is that they are not as much of a fucked up mess as intellectual property laws.



You just went full retard...


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## Sam 007 NL (Dec 11, 2012)

This is basically what happens in slaughter houses: www.meatvideo.com (WARNING, SHOWS ANIMAL CRUELTY)


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## Aleu (Dec 11, 2012)

sunandshadow said:


> I personally think that there are currently too many laws against animal cruelty - animals are property, and it's just inconsistent to be allowed to kill and eat animals but not keep them alive and fed and use them in fights or as sex toys.  The only really positive thing I can say about animal cruelty laws is that they are not as much of a fucked up mess as intellectual property laws.


There is a world of difference between nourishment and sexual pleasure and torture.


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## ZerX (Dec 11, 2012)

for more "nice stuff" google japanese slaughtering whales and dolphins


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## benignBiotic (Dec 11, 2012)

Couldn't see your video. I have no tolerance for animal cruelty. I'm a vegetarian, going on vegan, because the meat industry (IE factory farming) is the most disgusting thing I've ever known. The animals, living feeling things, are treated like commodities. Companies don't care about them all they care about is money and efficiency. If a couple thousand cows or pigs are still cognizant while they are being cut open, oh well. Not to address the deliberate and unnecessary instances of animal cruelty witnessed by 'farm' auditors. 26% of chicken slaughterhouses had acts so severe that they should have failed (the industry however decided this was a perfectly acceptable statistic and gave them a pass). There's the way modern 'farming' contributes to global warming. The way fish trawling *destroys* undersea habitats. Factory farming is the worst. 



> I'm a meat-eater. But They shouldnt be mistreated untill they get on my  plate. I don't like the whole hording bs that seems to be the case with  most cattle-farms.(If that's what it's called.) where they stack them  next to eachother with nowhere to move. Or given an unpainfull death.


This is the case for literally 99% of America's meat production. Believe it or not cattle are the best protected meat animal and they are still treated horridly. If you buy meat, you are paying into this system. Encouraging it. Fact . You could buy from family farms if you can find one that is free of industry practices, but those are quite rare.

Anyway I don't stand for animal cruelty in any form, but the biggest target of my hatred is the factory farming industry. 



> The very idea that animals are 'just property' is one of the main causes  of animal abuse, even more problematic than the religious element.


But hey man we can drive cars and stuff so we're better than them. We need to dominate them. (Actual 'argument' I've heard before)


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## Grimfang (Dec 11, 2012)

"This video has been removed because its content violated YouTube's Terms of Service."

Huh. I'm assuming this was something related to factory farms or something. Is there an alternative source for this?

But I've seen a lot of videos and documentaries about factory farming and some documente3d instances of outright animal abuse. It's always saddening stuff. Makes me feel horrible for how much meat is in my diet.


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## Validuz (Dec 11, 2012)

benignBiotic said:


> This is the case for literally 99% of America's meat production. Believe it or not cattle are the best protected meat animal and they are still treated horridly. If *you* buy meat, *you* are paying into this system. Encouraging it. Fact . You could buy from family farms if you can find one that is free of industry practices, but those are quite rare.



Actually. Up north here in Sweden the slaughtering process is much, much better than what i've seen in videos about american terror-farms. I'm not an animal rights activist or do anything to prevent it. (I really should.. :c ) But all the packages of meat we get here is marked with some 'we love animals' thingy aswell as approved by some company that checks this kind of stuff. (Hey. It could be just bullshit. And i'm sure there are exceptions...)
One thing i DO know for sure, is that our milk-farms?(Dairy?) is held at high standards. We had one next to our school that we frequently visited, large grazing fields, alot of spare room for the cows etc.
There are alot of bad things about this country. But i don't believe the meat industry is one of them 
(And as i wrote this. I realized you might have used 'you' as a general term to everone. Or 'You' as in me since you quoted me 
Either/or. I agree with you that no type of animal should be mistreated. Slaughtered sure, we do need meat. But not mistreated before the slaughter. And slaughtered in a proper way.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 11, 2012)

Validuz said:


> Actually. Up north here in Sweden the slaughtering process is much, much better than what i've seen in videos about american terror-farms. I'm not an animal rights activist or do anything to prevent it. (I really should.. :c ) But all the packages of meat we get here is marked with some 'we love animals' thingy aswell as approved by some company that checks this kind of stuff. (Hey. It could be just bullshit. And i'm sure there are exceptions...)
> One thing i DO know for sure, is that our milk-farms?(Dairy?) is held at high standards. We had one next to our school that we frequently visited, large grazing fields, alot of spare room for the cows etc.
> There are alot of bad things about this country. But i don't believe the meat industry is one of them
> (And as i wrote this. I realized you might have used 'you' as a general term to everone. Or 'You' as in me since you quoted me
> Either/or. I agree with you that no type of animal should be mistreated. Slaughtered sure, we do need meat. But not mistreated before the slaughter. And slaughtered in a proper way.


Actually that was my bad. I assumed you lived in America. Sorry. I don't know about Sweden, but the situation in the US is no good.


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## Aleu (Dec 11, 2012)

benignBiotic said:


> Actually that was my bad. I assumed you lived in America. Sorry. I don't know about Sweden, but the situation in the US is no good.



Seems like the only solution to get factory farms to treat animals right is to hunt and kill them yourself or buy from places that don't participate in inhumane practices. Both of which would probably not be cost-effective for the consumer at all.


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## Ozriel (Dec 11, 2012)

Some people treat animals as if they were objects and property, and not like living beings. I have zero tolerance for animal abuse.

The ranches we have for food are more corporate than anything and out to make a profit than the welfare of their animals. A few businesses are moving away from it, but its expensive.




sunandshadow said:


> I personally think that there are currently too many laws against animal cruelty - animals are property, and it's just inconsistent to be allowed to kill and eat animals but not keep them alive and fed and use them in fights or as sex toys.  The only really positive thing I can say about animal cruelty laws is that they are not as much of a fucked up mess as intellectual property laws.



What?!


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## Toshabi (Dec 11, 2012)

I just want my food. I couldn't care less.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Dec 11, 2012)

I think it's when folk intentionally cause unnecessary harm to animals.
Excluding food production


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 11, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Seems like the only solution to get factory farms to treat animals right is to hunt and kill them yourself or buy from places that don't participate in inhumane practices. Both of which would probably not be cost-effective for the consumer at all.



Actually it cost less to buy the animal and pay a local person to slaughter/butcher it for you than it is to buy all those cuts. I can buy an 80 pound goat for 20 bucks after slaughter its hanging weight is about 60 pounds. Thats 60 pounds of meat for 20 bucks. WAAAY cost effective. Most people just dont know about it.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 11, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Seems like the only solution to get factory farms to treat animals right is to hunt and kill them yourself or buy from places that don't participate in inhumane practices. Both of which would probably not be cost-effective for the consumer at all.


That's the thing. Factory farmed meat seems inexpensive because they 'externalize' their costs. We get our meat cheaper at the expense of animal welfare, greater emissions output, ecological destruction, new diseases, etc. Also I don't doubt what dinosaurdammit said.

If you want to avoid these problems and continue eating meat it's going to cost you. The right thing to do, of course, isn't always easy. I guess it's 1. Continue buying factory farmed products ensuring they continue to be made. 2. Buy from the dwindling number of industry-independant family farms which promotes much improved farming practices, but is expensive. I have nothing against this option because there are a precious few compassionate farmers out there who really work for the animals sake. 3. VEG.


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## Rheumatism (Dec 11, 2012)

ZerX said:


> for more "nice stuff" google japanese slaughtering whales and dolphins


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## Aleu (Dec 11, 2012)

benignBiotic said:


> That's the thing. Factory farmed meat seems inexpensive because they 'externalize' their costs. We get our meat cheaper at the expense of animal welfare, greater emissions output, ecological destruction, new diseases, etc. Also I don't doubt what dinosaurdammit said.
> 
> If you want to avoid these problems and continue eating meat it's going to cost you. The right thing to do, of course, isn't always easy. I guess it's 1. Continue buying factory farmed products ensuring they continue to be made. 2. Buy from the dwindling number of industry-independant family farms which promotes much improved farming practices, but is expensive. I have nothing against this option because there are a precious few compassionate farmers out there who really work for the animals sake. 3. VEG.


Well I guess I'm just a heartless bastard since I know of no place that I can buy a live animal from to be slaughtered, can't afford the more expensive meat, and going vegetarian is absolutely out of the question. I've come close at one point but I really do need red meat in my system.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 11, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Well I guess I'm just a heartless bastard since I know of no place that I can buy a live animal from to be slaughtered, can't afford the more expensive meat, and going vegetarian is absolutely out of the question. I've come close at one point but I really do need red meat in my system.




read my above post. at most it would cost 60 dollars to have an animal "rendered". If you go locally its even cheeper. Practicality I know is up in the air BUT it can be done cheeper.


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## Em1l (Dec 11, 2012)

There shouldn't really be a line at all to be drawing, in an ideal world no animal cruelty should be tolerated, however it would seem that when it comes to meat the majority of the population spends little to no time thinking about its origins and sadly the sheer number of people that don't consider such things means that any change to improve animal welfare in the meat industry isn't feasible as there is nowhere near a substantial enough movement that demand change.

At the end of the day most people take meat for granted and consider its presence no more then that of the vegetables that share the same plate, I don't see any way of convincing the general population otherwise.

When it comes to animal cruelty as a whole there are just too many people who don't give a damn, most people are shocked by videos such as that but few go on to do anything more than just react to it's face value.

To be honest it is quite a sad world that we live in

/rant


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## benignBiotic (Dec 11, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Well I guess I'm just a heartless bastard since I know of no place that I can buy a live animal from to be slaughtered, can't afford the more expensive meat, and going vegetarian is absolutely out of the question. I've come close at one point but I really do need red meat in my system.


I don't consider you a heartless bastard! Meat is deeply ingrained in humanity's history. You (and I) grew up eating it like your parents, and their parents, and their parents. And that matters. There are a lot of memories and emotions tied to what we eat.

The facts about industry meat are out there and they were sufficient enough to turn me off meat fo life. Eating meat is a matter of conscience v. craving. After learning about factory farms I couldn't in good conscience ignore the problem. At the end of the day no person in an industrialized country _needs_ meat. A human can live perfectly well with a meatless diet. In fact there are health benefits. If you seek out the answers to questions about factory farmed meat you may not like what you see and you'll have to sit back and say "Is this piece of steak worth the suffering, damage, and pollution inherent in its creation?"



> At the end of the day most people take meat for granted and consider its  presence no more then that of the vegetables that share the same plate,  I don't see any way of convincing the general population otherwise.


Yeah mang. There's a huge deliberate divide between the customer and the animal. The customer only sees neatly packaged meat in a cooler. Or pictures of cows grazing on an entirely fictional farm (cows are typically fed an unnatural diet of grains and corn these days, cheaper). As far as industry leaders are concerned the less customers think about where their meat comes from the better. Sucks!


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## Gr8fulFox (Dec 11, 2012)

All you anti-factory farm people seem to be forgetting that if a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about.


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## Toshabi (Dec 11, 2012)

At the end of the day, who fucking cares? That animals purpose in life is to be killed and served on our plates. 90% of the people crying about the poor treatment of farm animals are going to still order that big mac. But hey! At least you're outwardly strong against such cruelty. Give me a break and eat your goddamn food.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 12, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> At the end of the day, who fucking cares? That animals purpose in life is to be killed and served on our plates. 90% of the people crying about the poor treatment of farm animals are going to still order that big mac. But hey! At least you're outwardly strong against such cruelty. Give me a break and eat your goddamn food.



At the end of the day, not everyone is a mindless, unfeeling drone.


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## Toshabi (Dec 12, 2012)

DepressedNutella said:


> At the end of the day, not everyone is a mindless, unfeeling drone.



Oh bloo bloo bloo, how dare you not make sure your wittle animals aren't given 5 star treatment until they're old enough to be slaughtered for food.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 12, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> Oh bloo bloo bloo, how dare you not make sure your wittle animals aren't given 5 star treatment until they're old enough to be slaughtered for food.


Hell 1 star treatment would be an improvement. It would be stellar if pigs and chickens weren't so malnourished that they could fall and be unable to get up (Ironically called "a downer" in the business) for starters.


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## Hinalle K. (Dec 12, 2012)

DepressedNutella said:


> At the end of the day, not everyone is a mindless, unfeeling drone.


But... he's right.
On the particular subject of mistreatment at slaughterhouses, the cattle will still be killed to be consumed, so what's it matter? It's not like you're ultimately saving them from their fate or anything. 
Do you think the slain animals will be thanking you in *animal heaven* because you didn't allow them to be treated badly at the slaughterhouse or something like that, while you're grabbing your big mac?
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, right?


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## Toshabi (Dec 12, 2012)

Food is food. Not my problem at all. 


The only animals I care for that get abused are the wild ones and pets. Livestock is just food. Period.


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## Icen (Dec 12, 2012)

I'm a vegan. That's where I draw the line.


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## Hinalle K. (Dec 12, 2012)

I saw Icen in "last replies" for an animal cruelty thread,so I came back here thinking I was in for a show :[

You disappoint, plant lady!


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## Icen (Dec 12, 2012)

Hinalle K. said:


> I saw Icen in "last replies" for an animal cruelty thread,so I came back here thinking I was in for a show :[
> 
> You disappoint, plant lady!


It's okay.

I poisoned all of your water supply so you'll be having lots of fun soon. :]


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## Toshabi (Dec 12, 2012)

What makes her different then the rest of these morons? She at least has the nuts to practice what she preaches and "does something about it". All the rest of the morons in here will cry, cry, cry about how poor babe was kicked by a farmer and still order a full slab of baby back ribs. Though, I'm quite surprised that Icen didn't blow us all up with a mega vegan post. That was short and sweet.




I'm still waiting for vegan's and furries alike to go on a big ass raid on farms to "liberate our livestock", only to have the animals get eaten by other animals in the wild, killing them in ways that make the slaughter house look like a mercy killing. That and the surviving livestock end up dying cause they're too retarded to figure out how to live in nature on their own. Oh furries, when will you open up your eyes and realize just how stupid these topics are.





Edit: Ooo! Icen's resorting to killing. I like it! I knew I could corrupt you.


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## Icen (Dec 12, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> What makes her different then the rest of these morons? She at least has the nuts to practice what she preaches and "does something about it". All the rest of the morons in here will cry, cry, cry about how poor babe was kicked by a farmer and still order a full slab of baby back ribs. Though, I'm quite surprised that Icen didn't blow us all up with a mega vegan post. That was short and sweet.


The thread asked where I drew the line. I responded. It never asked why or "give me your life story bro".



Toshabi said:


> I'm still waiting for vegan's and furries alike to go on a big ass raid on farms to "liberate our livestock", only to have the animals get eaten by other animals in the wild, killing them in ways that make the slaughter house look like a mercy killing. That and the surviving livestock end up dying cause they're too retarded to figure out how to live in nature on their own. Oh furries, when will you open up and realize just how stupid these topics are.


Furries as a whole would never go vegan, just like the nerd fandom. They need their bacon band-aids and bacon thongs and other bacon paraphernalia.



Toshabi said:


> Edit: Ooo! Icen's resorting to killing. I like it! I knew I could corrupt you.


I find it so amusing that you credit yourself for my evil ways. :V


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## Toshabi (Dec 12, 2012)

Icen said:


> I find it so amusing that you credit yourself for my evil ways. :V



The poison thing was my idea. I have evidence.


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## Icen (Dec 12, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> The poison thing was my idea. I have evidence.


Then I don't think you'd mind the pheromones and the eventually-turning-into-a-tree thing. :V


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## Vaelarsa (Dec 12, 2012)

I really don't care that much.
Fresh farm meat, or animals that are hunted in the wild (like deer), can taste better in my experience because it's more fresh, and not just like a mash of scraps shoved through a processing machine.
But I have absolutely no means to access any of that, in my current situation.
And I fucking love meat. Some good steaks, seafood, ham, venison, jerky, roast, chicken, and such would make up the majority of my diet if I could keep on affording it. 

Can't comment on the video. Can't see the video.


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## Ozriel (Dec 12, 2012)

Icen said:


> Furries as a whole would never go vegan, just like the nerd fandom. They need their bacon band-aids and bacon thongs and other bacon paraphernalia.




If it weren't for bacon, I'd be vegan.

But bacon Dildos are where I draw the line.


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## Toshabi (Dec 12, 2012)

Icen said:


> Then I don't think you'd mind the pheromones and the eventually-turning-into-a-tree thing. :V




Sure beats being a statue for a millenium.


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## Icen (Dec 12, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> If it weren't for bacon, I'd be vegan.
> 
> But bacon Dildos are where I draw the line.


Somewhere out there, I promise you one exists.

I mean hey, people fuck cubes. Why not fatty strips of meat? :V


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## Vaelarsa (Dec 12, 2012)

Icen said:


> Furries as a whole would never go vegan, just like the nerd fandom. They need their bacon band-aids and bacon thongs and other bacon paraphernalia.


I still can't understand internet culture's obsession with bacon.
It's super salty, to the point of burning, and so greasy you could vomit.

There are so many better options, out there.


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## Ozriel (Dec 12, 2012)

Icen said:


> Somewhere out there, I promise you one exists.



If you type in Bacon dildo into the search engine, you get bad dragon toys. Go figure.



> I mean hey, people fuck cubes. Why not fatty strips of meat? :V



You might as well say  "Please garrote my supple and virgin anus with fried, smoky pork meats please".



Vaelarsa said:


> I still can't understand internet culture's obsession with bacon.
> It's super salty, to the point of burning, and so greasy you could vomit.
> 
> There are so many better options, out there.



Try sunday bacon. It's not as salty as Smithfield or whatever brand people tend to buy. I shit you not, there's such a thing. :V


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## Judge Spear (Dec 12, 2012)

Icen said:


> I mean hey, people fuck cubes.



...I didn't realize this was a problem. I'll just take my business elsewhere, thank you very motherfucking much. HMPF!


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## Aleu (Dec 12, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> read my above post. at most it would cost 60 dollars to have an animal "rendered". If you go locally its even cheeper. Practicality I know is up in the air BUT it can be done cheeper.



And that's pretty damn expensive for me. And I believe I also stated I have no knowledge of any place that does that here.



benignBiotic said:


> I don't consider you a heartless bastard!  Meat is deeply ingrained in humanity's history. You (and I) grew up  eating it like your parents, and their parents, and their parents. And  that matters. There are a lot of memories and emotions tied to what we  eat.
> 
> The facts about industry meat are out there and they were sufficient  enough to turn me off meat fo life. Eating meat is a matter of  conscience v. craving. After learning about factory farms I couldn't in  good conscience ignore the problem. At the end of the day no person in  an industrialized country _needs_ meat. A human can live  perfectly well with a meatless diet. In fact there are health benefits.  If you seek out the answers to questions about factory farmed meat you  may not like what you see and you'll have to sit back and say "Is this  piece of steak worth the suffering, damage, and pollution inherent in  its creation?"



Really, so the random bruises I've gotten, loss of weight and paler  complexion were just a figment of my imagination. Bro, I have seen  enough factory farm videos and, yeah, I just can't really give any more  shits. Not fucking everyone can survive on a meatless diet.


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## Toshabi (Dec 12, 2012)

XoPachi said:


> ...I didn't realize this was a problem. I'll just take my business elsewhere, thank you very motherfucking much. HMPF!



http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/129356-My-odd-love

I guess you didn't read up on the latest issue of FAF: Offtopic.


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## Judge Spear (Dec 12, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/129356-My-odd-love
> 
> I guess you didn't read up on the latest issue of FAF: Offtopic.



Was just there, but you and I share the same interests. I was always into it, but needed someone brave to admit it before I do. I thank you for your courage.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 12, 2012)

Hinalle K. said:


> But... he's right.
> On the particular subject of mistreatment at slaughterhouses, the cattle will still be killed to be consumed, so what's it matter? It's not like you're ultimately saving them from their fate or anything.
> Do you think the slain animals will be thanking you in *animal heaven* because you didn't allow them to be treated badly at the slaughterhouse or something like that, while you're grabbing your big mac?
> Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, right?


Factory farming comes with immense collateral damages. 'Fishing' with humongous trawls kills tons of animals aside from the sought after species. Decreasing biodiversity makes for a more precarious ecosystem which is no good. New diseases that can (and have) gone zoonotic are cooked up in these dank and cramped, pig, chicken, and turkey houses. The farms themselves put out more greenhouse gases than the worlds cars do. You might say "Well if we're going to get meat some other way they're still going to be farting up a storm." and I would say maybe we don't all need to eat so much meat. We have options. Maybe you care about the illegal aliens who frequently work at fac farms? It's dangerous and taxing. Even if they want to quit they're in a vice because the companies could rat on them. 
And there's animal suffering. If hypothetically humans were raised in circumstances similar to the ones we see in 'farms' today we'd be appalled. We'd most likely demand that they be freed. Just because other animals may suffer less, as a result of their sub-human capabilities for comprehending suffering (not pain), doesn't mean we have to treat them like our objects. Do we allow suffering to continue or do we make some moves to stop it? 



> Really, so the random bruises I've gotten, loss of weight and paler   complexion were just a figment of my imagination. Bro, I have seen   enough factory farm videos and, yeah, I just can't really give any more   shits. Not fucking everyone can survive on a meatless diet.


I said it was possible I never said it was easy. One can't swap steaks for salads and call it a day. It takes some  simple planning. Covering your vitamin bases and getting into beans, soy, and nuts for your 'tein.


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## Ozriel (Dec 12, 2012)

benignBiotic said:


> I said it was possible I never said it was easy. One can't swap steaks for salads and call it a day. It takes some  simple planning. Covering your vitamin bases and getting into beans, soy, and nuts for your 'tein.



Soy can be just as bad and it's better to find another source than Soybeans or soy products.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 12, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> Soy can be just as bad and it's better to find another source than Soybeans or soy products.




fun fact, soy contains an enzyme that keeps your body from taking in protein. THE MORE YOU KNOW


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## Ley (Dec 12, 2012)

I suppose I draw the line where I see pets (mammalian or reptilian) beaten but kept alive instead of killing them when you're done fucking with them. Torture, kept barely alive, that sort of thing.

As far as livestock goes.. I'm not going to say its 'just' food, its 'just' property, but in the end, they ARE a company's property, and the company needs to feed millions of people. So, they care more about what comes out of the meatgrinder than what goes in, I guess. As far as my personal line? I don't know. I know these animals are bred for food, and that is it. I was raised and taught livestock was to feed. I had to kill chickens when I was younger. I gutted a deer once. I eat everything meat. 

I'm sorry.. this is an ugly, human trait. A casuality we have to live with. We as humans have to accept the fact that we are a poisonous, industrious, and selfish race.. adn that we don't care about it. 

Also I'm starting to really like Toshabi.


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## Ozriel (Dec 12, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> fun fact, soy contains an enzyme that keeps your body from taking in protein. THE MORE YOU KNOW



And other key vitamins the body needs.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> And other key vitamins the body needs.


Again, this is another one of those "every single food item does good and bad things for you and it depends on how your individual body handles the situation".

We could go on for hours about soy.

I could load people up here with how absolutely pointless it is to consume dairy.

Some scientist could tell you all that you guys suck for eating any kind of flesh.

Then some weird advocacy group will plow in and tell us we all suck for eating any kind of carbs.

IT'S THE SONG THAT NEVER EEEEENDS.


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## TeenageAngst (Dec 13, 2012)

dairy is delicious though, and has dat vitamin d


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## Toshabi (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> Again, this is another one of those "every single food item does good and bad things for you and it depends on how your individual body handles the situation".
> 
> We could go on for hours about soy.
> 
> ...




Soy milk also tastes like shit compared to milk. Especially chocolate milk.


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## TeenageAngst (Dec 13, 2012)

Chocolate milk single handedly disarms the anti-dairy coalition.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> Soy milk also tastes like shit compared to milk. Especially chocolate milk.


Lol.

What verbal diarrhea is this?


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## Toshabi (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> Lol.
> 
> What verbal diarrhea is this?





It's called the truth! Your diet has been single-handedly crushed by my superior diet! >:[


(that and I look dashing)


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## Gr8fulFox (Dec 13, 2012)

Vaelarsa said:


> and not just like a mash of scraps shoved through a processing machine.



Hey hey hey! Don't you knock my scrapple; it's the breakfast food of the gods.


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## Ozriel (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> Again, this is another one of those "every single food item does good and bad things for you and it depends on how your individual body handles the situation".
> 
> We could go on for hours about soy.
> 
> ...



 I do not consider this a Meat VS. Veg*n thing. It's more of a dietary issue since many people think that Soy is the main protein staple of Veg*nism. If people cared, they'd advocate using something that won't make your body turn into a dessicated mass of flesh and hair, or activate some sort of allergic reaction to it due to consumption of the processed Soy. 

You may be educated, but not everyone shares the same education.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> I do not consider this a Meat VS. Veg*n thing. It's more of a dietary issue since many people think that Soy is the main protein staple of Veg*nism. If people cared, they'd advocate using something that won't make your body turn into a dessicated mass of flesh and hair, or activate some sort of allergic reaction to it due to consumption of the processed Soy.
> 
> You may be educated, but not everyone shares the same education.


You're right; lots of people think that veg*ns eat soy for protein (both veg*n and non-veg*n alike, though at least in my area it's the latter group that thinks that). I've found (in my case anyway) that beans + rice and nuts are a much more viable source of protein. Plus nuts have natural fats and oils in them that lots of other proteins lack. Though kale and quinoa are my favorite sources of protein. (I can't eat enough of that stuff!)

A lot of people get scared that if they cannot consume soy, that they cannot become veg*n if that's their goal. 



Toshabi said:


> It's called the truth! Your diet has been single-handedly crushed by my superior diet! >:[
> 
> 
> (that and I look dashing)


Well we could look at this two ways:

1) I'm presuming that you grew up drinking cow's milk. You were taught by your parents, siblings, friends, teachers, peers and other people that milk is tasty and good for you. Media told you this as well and it has been ingrained into you before you were born and long after you will die. I highly doubt you had this experience with any non-dairy milk (or even non-cow's milk) because I barely see any veg*n commercials on TV or on the radio period.

Had you grown up with anything else with the same hype, you would feel the same way about it. I know this because I too grew up in a culture that told me milk is tasty and good for me. However I went a different route than the majority of the population, regardless of what I've been taught or told.

2) You're just a poop-face with no good taste.

Also I look so much more fabulous than you bro. :V


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## Ozriel (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> You're right; lots of people think that veg*ns eat soy for protein (both veg*n and non-veg*n alike, though at least in my area it's the latter group that thinks that). I've found (in my case anyway) that beans + rice and nuts are a much more viable source of protein. Plus nuts have natural fats and oils in them that lots of other proteins lack. Though kale and quinoa are my favorite sources of protein. (I can't eat enough of that stuff!)
> 
> A lot of people get scared that if they cannot consume soy, that they cannot become veg*n if that's their goal.



I'd tell a person to eat beans, lentils, kale, buckwheat and quinoa than eat soy, but that's just me.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> You're right; lots of people think that veg*ns eat soy for protein (both veg*n and non-veg*n alike, though at least in my area it's the latter group that thinks that). I've found (in my case anyway) that beans + rice and nuts are a much more viable source of protein. Plus nuts have natural fats and oils in them that lots of other proteins lack. Though kale and quinoa are my favorite sources of protein. (I can't eat enough of that stuff!)
> 
> A lot of people get scared that if they cannot consume soy, that they cannot become veg*n if that's their goal.


I only suggested soy initially because it's an option. I don't eat many soy products. Just tofu somtimes. I eat beans more often, and nuts all the time. Kale is so great. Give me some lentils and kale and I am set for a week.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> I'd tell a person to eat beans, lentils, kale, buckwheat and quinoa than eat soy, but that's just me.


Buckwheat is so good. I also lovelovelove barley.

But kale? Kale is just amazing. And all of the nutrients that's in it is even more amazing than the fact that it has tons of protein.


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## Ozriel (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> Buckwheat is so good. I also lovelovelove barley.
> 
> But kale? Kale is just amazing. And all of the nutrients that's in it is even more amazing than the fact that it has tons of protein.



I tend to eat my veggies raw, but it's good with a vegitarian...or vegan Mediterranean salad. Or blanched with some brown rice miso.


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## Kazooie (Dec 13, 2012)

The majority of the meals I consume are vegetarian. You can make delicious vegetarian food for pennies, but semi-decent meat is way, way pricier per gram of protein/carb you get from the food. Though, I usually have a steak in reserve if I'm feeling really, really lazy.


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## Lucy Bones (Dec 13, 2012)

If it doesn't taste good, it doesn't need to die.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

Ahkmill said:


> If it doesn't taste good, it doesn't need to die.


And how do you know your dog or cat or parents don't taste good?

Your logic; so flawed and full of holes.


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## Toshabi (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> And how do you know your dog or cat or parents don't taste good?
> 
> Your logic; so flawed and full of holes.



Chinese food DOES taste good though!


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## Ozriel (Dec 13, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> Chinese food DOES taste good though!



Real or American? Real Chinese food is like getting a fried bacon dildo garroting your anus. That's if they use dirty water.


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## Toshabi (Dec 13, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> Real or American? Real Chinese food is like getting a friend bacon dildo garroting your anus. That's if they use dirty water.



It depends on what kind of breed of cat and dog they use for their orange chicken. Got a bad case of the shits? They probably put in too much shih tzu.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> Oh bloo bloo bloo, how dare you not make sure your wittle animals aren't given 5 star treatment until they're old enough to be slaughtered for food.



Spoken like a true jerkwad. I love it how you're sliding it far up the scale, in a deliberate attempt to sway from the crux of the issue because _you don't give a damn_. I'm not asking for food animals to be treated like kings, I'm asking those responsible not to be jerks about it when they are slaughtering them. As in, not doing sick shit like mutilating them while they're still concious, stuff that is actually illegal to do.

Go watch a video of a slaughterhouse that's not following the correct protocol by taking short cuts at the expense of animal welfare. Animals being beaten and cut up alive, hooks through its bum while awake, etc. How is that acceptable in any shape or form? Because it's only a "food" animal, it means it's ok?



Hinalle K. said:


> But... he's right.
> On the particular subject of mistreatment at slaughterhouses, the cattle  will still be killed to be consumed, so what's it matter? It's not like  you're ultimately saving them from their fate or anything.
> Do you think the slain animals will be thanking you in *animal heaven*  because you didn't allow them to be treated badly at the slaughterhouse  or something like that, while you're grabbing your big mac?
> Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, right?



Right about what?

He's being condescending about people caring about something he doesn't. A food animal might be food to us, but it isn't an inanimate object. Maybe this "Toshabi" should grow the fuck up and realise that, instead of looking like a tool. And as for "they're going to be killed anyway, so what's it matter" is the dumbest line of reasoning I've seen all week. My dog of a few years ago suffered from a painful terminal cancer, and we had to put him down. Ultimately I'm not saving him from a fate of death either, but that doesn't give anyone the right to give him a slow and painful death. By your logic it wouldn't have mattered if the vet had tortured the dog with garden clippers because he was going to die anyway. It's the same with a friggin' cow, or any other animal for that matter. The point is, that food animal or otherwise, shouldn't be subjected to torture, and is deserving of a humane putdown. I don't eat McDonald's because it's disgusting anyway, I buy local produce meat and *hope* our animal cruelty laws are strictly enforced in most slaughterhouses where I live. So keep your stupid assumptions to yourself.

And yes, it makes me feel better. I'm sure it does for the animal too. Curse me and my empathy! Damn human traits huh? I'm glad I'm not a mindless, unfeeling drone. The point is, the animal shouldn't be mistreated at all. Saying "what's it matter" is heartless, and makes you look like an a-hole. You are pretty much saying it doesn't matter if they're being mistreated because they are food. Please tell me why. Explain to me why any animal has to go through getting slowly beaten up in a slaughterhouse by someone who is technically breaking the law. Something that actually makes the meat quality worse and production slow down (if all you care about is efficiency). Because you and this Toshabi fellow _don't care_? I don't give a damn if the both of you are indifferent to how food animals are treated, the crux of the matter here is being condescending to people who _do_ care - as if you're saying they shouldn't at all. As if it were a _bad_ thing to be more humane to animals in food production. And as for "animal heaven", I expect nothing in return from being kind to something that can't return the favour. It's called altruism - ever heard of it before? Or is the only reason to show mercy is because you're greedy enough to _expect_ something in return? Thanks for vindicating the condensation!

Good grief, you two are absolutely pathetic.


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## Lucy Bones (Dec 13, 2012)

I never said I'd never eat dog, or even human meat, I don't give a fuck.


Well, I'd never eat a cat or a shark, those two animals have sentimental value to me.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Toshabi said:


> What makes her different then the rest of these  morons? She at least has the nuts to practice what she preaches and  "does something about it". All the rest of the morons in here will cry,  cry, cry about how poor babe was kicked by a farmer and still order a  full slab of baby back ribs. Though, I'm quite surprised that Icen  didn't blow us all up with a mega vegan post. That was short and sweet.
> 
> I'm still waiting for vegan's and furries alike to go on a big ass raid  on farms to "liberate our livestock", only to have the animals get eaten  by other animals in the wild, killing them in ways that make the  slaughter house look like a mercy killing. That and the surviving  livestock end up dying cause they're too retarded to figure out how to  live in nature on their own. Oh furries, when will you open up your eyes  and realize just how stupid these topics are.



You don't even know what I do about said issues, or how I go about my lifestyle with them so you can fuck the right off pal.

I am not even a vegetarian. I am a meat eater. Eating meat and finding mistreatment of farm/food animals abhorrent are _not_ mutually exclusive. But for some inane reason, you seem to think it is. Regardless of people crying about it, or doing anything about it or not, mistreatment/torture is wrong. End of story.


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## Lucy Bones (Dec 13, 2012)

Next time a lion eats a gazelle, I'm gonna go scold it and see how that works out.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Ahkmill said:


> Next time a lion eats a gazelle, I'm gonna go scold it and see how that works out.



Humans have complex cognitive processes that allow them to make choices, rather than act on instinct alone. But I guess some people don't if they base their morality on what a _comparatively unintelligent lion_ does. The lion has limited tools as its disposal to get the job done, to ensure its survival. "Jeff" on the slaughterhouse floor beats an animal slowly for no real reason except to sate his own sadistic tendencies, despite having the tools right there to ensure the animal's death doesn't drag out more than necessary. It has nothing to do with survival or "survival of the fittest". It's just a-holes being a-holes.

But yeah, let's all follow the examples of lions and brutally kill every animal we eat instead of doing it relatively painlessly and humanely, even if we have the tools and it's cost effective to do so! Fuck's sake, the more naturalistic fallacy arguments I see, the more lame it gets.


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## Lucy Bones (Dec 13, 2012)

Human's are definitely not as smart as people claim they are.

Look at us, we've had a finger on the trigger of the gun that will end the world for over 50 years now, and nobody is putting the gun down.

If anything, animals have morality and intelligence down way better than us. All they do is continue along the circle of life, converting energy so that it may be recycled.

Meanwhile, all we do is wreck shit. I don't see how eating a steak is any worse than driving a pollution-causing car in this day and age.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Ahkmill said:


> If anything, animals have morality and intelligence down way better than us. All they do is continue along the circle of life, converting energy so that it may be recycled.



Most animals have no concept of morality. Nature by definition is neutral. Animals eat their own young, sometimes while alive - and it's common for some animals. In fact, they do all sorts of shit we wouldn't dare do in society (at least most of us). That's because morality is a human concept. As far as intelligence goes, please let me know when lions can design, build and send spacecraft and land rovers to places like Mars and Titan.



> Meanwhile, all we do is wreck shit. I don't see how eating a steak is any worse than driving a pollution-causing car in this day and age.



We also create shit:

Watch this. Fucking amazing. I guess dogs sniffing each other's butts might be more impressive to you, oh well, each to their own.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

I have witnesses to back me up when I say it wasn't me who started this whole intarwebz battle on morality and what not.


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## Lucy Bones (Dec 13, 2012)

Should we eat animals? Up to your personal preference. A person's dietary decisions are their own business, nobody should be butting in to that sort of thing. 

Should animals be tortured for fun? Uh, no, fuck that, that's terrible.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

I blame *Toshabi* 	 and his silly assumptions that people who bitch about such things must not do a thing about it, or are not proactive about it. Oh, and his silly reasoning that wild animals and pets are the only animal whose welfare we should take into consideration. If you're going to treat animals like absolute shit anyway, what is the point of being nice? Because some animals are cuter, more fluffy and aren't food? I actually despise the cute fluffy bunny wunny bullshit, because there are animals that are far more intelligent and get treated worse because they're ugly (or are misunderstood).


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Ahkmill said:


> Should we eat animals? Up to your personal preference. A person's dietary decisions are their own business, nobody should be butting in to that sort of thing.
> 
> Should animals be tortured for fun? Uh, no, fuck that, that's terrible.



It's not a question of eating animals, it's a question of whether it's OK or not to mistreat/abuse them/kill them inhumanely PRIOR to eating them. I don't care what people eat, however I do care if some moron slowly beats a cow or pig to death because they're too sadistic to do it the proper way.


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## Deo (Dec 13, 2012)

Gr8fulFox said:


> I guess it all has to do with how you define 'animal cruelty'. For example, growing up on the East Coast, I have a love for seafood and fishing. One of my favorite things to eat is blue crabs, which are traditionally steamed alive. Actually, this came up in another thread a couple months back, but I'm too lazy to find it. Is that cruel? Research has shown that crabs react to pain, but the jury is still out on whether they interpret the pain as "AHHH THIS HURTS!!'. And fishing. Sometimes I use live eels as bait for striped bass; the best way to fish with live eels is to grip them firmly, and whack them across a hard object to break their back. This way, they won't wrap themselves around any underwater object and force me to cut my line, losing my bait & rig. Is that cruel? Seeing as the eel is just going to be eaten anyway, I don't think so, but you may have differing opinions. And I can't comment on the YouTube video as it has been removed.



I actually have to think about this. I don't fish often, but injuring an animal for using it does seem cruel, but then again instead of breaking eel spines I use live worms just as cruelly spitting them on hooks. And I love seafood. The crab thing is really bothering me since I never before really paid that much attention to the cooking method of the crab, I just ate a lot of them. But boiling something alive could be considered very cruel, or at least if it was a person or some sort of cutesie wooof people would be batshit over it. 
I knew slaughter houses can be cruel, and that the bolt method can take a few shots before the brain is injured severely enough to be fatal to the animals. (Which is why I try to eat Kosher if I can even though I'm not Jewish, it's just that the animal has to be killed as quickly as possible. Though that sentiment probably doesn't amount to much on a large-production scale where speed would probably take precedence over swift skilled painless killing.)

As for what DD has said it's true. I've bought goats before and butchered them myself, as well as butchered my dad's deer that he hunts. So buying the whole animal can be cheaper and potentially less cruel. However, that still depends. I've seen my uncle butcher a cow, and he's a small-ish farmer and let's just say not all family farms are kind to the animals even on a small non-factory farm scale. That and how many of you have the room to store 1,500lbs of beef after buying and butchering your own cows? Especially those of you who don't live in the Midwest where a farm is only five miles away in any direction. City folks I am looking at you.



Icen said:


> I have witnesses to back me up when I say it wasn't  me who started this whole intarwebz battle on morality and what  not.


Icen, the thread has "animal cruelty" in the title we all know you are personally responsible.


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## Batty Krueger (Dec 13, 2012)

If so worried about treatment of the food cow, only eat Kobe or Waggu beef and then become poor doing so.  That shit is expeeeeeensive.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

DepressedNutella said:


> I blame *Toshabi* 	 and his silly assumptions that people who bitch about such things must not do a thing about it, or are not proactive about it. Oh, and his silly reasoning that wild animals and pets are the only animal whose welfare we should take into consideration. If you're going to treat animals like absolute shit anyway, what is the point of being nice? Because some animals are cuter, more fluffy and aren't food? I actually despise the cute fluffy bunny wunny bullshit, because there are animals that are far more intelligent and get treated worse because they're ugly (or are misunderstood).


Toshabi's point is most people are hypocrites: they cry about cruelty but do nothing about it. And that's pretty true in our society.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> Toshabi's point is most people are hypocrites: they cry about cruelty but do nothing about it. And that's pretty true in our society.



While true, he didn't have to be condescending about it to people who actually care about it. It sounded like he wanted people not to care, and that it doesn't matter how such animals are treated. That's the main beef I have with him.


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## Icen (Dec 13, 2012)

DepressedNutella said:


> While true, he didn't have to be condescending about it to people who actually care about it. It sounded like he wanted people not to care, and that it doesn't matter how such animals are treated. That's the main beef I have with him.


I'm going to assume you haven't interacted with him much. He's a troll; not a serious one at that. He always plays devil's advocate.


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## DepressedNutella (Dec 13, 2012)

Icen said:


> I'm going to assume you haven't interacted with him much. He's a troll; not a serious one at that. He always plays devil's advocate.



Well no, I haven't. Thanks for letting me know. If he wants to further embarrass himself, then it'll just be amusing pummelling his weak arguments.


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## Conker (Dec 13, 2012)

In a happy world, animals aren't put through inhumane or cruel methods when they are killed and butchered. In a realistic world, I simply don't think on it and just buy what I want at a grocery store and leave it at that.


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## Lucy Bones (Dec 14, 2012)

DepressedNutella said:


> It's not a question of eating animals, it's a question of whether it's OK or not to mistreat/abuse them/kill them inhumanely PRIOR to eating them. I don't care what people eat, however I do care if some moron slowly beats a cow or pig to death because they're too sadistic to do it the proper way.


At least it ain't Japan, where they literally fuck animals to death before eating them in some areas.


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## Gr8fulFox (Dec 14, 2012)

Deo said:


> Which is why I try to eat Kosher if I can even though I'm not Jewish, it's just that the animal has to be killed as quickly as possible.



Kosher slaughtering is actually pretty cruel; the animal is strung upside-down and, while fully conscious, is bled to death by having its neck slit. Here's a video of the Kosher slaughtering process. BE WARNED! It's pretty damn graphic. And I'm not trying to make you or anyone feel terrible about eating Kosher beef, just getting the facts out there.

Edit: and just to throw this out there, I didn't get all my facts about Kosher beef from that one video; I got them from the movie "Faces of Death". That... that's a movie you only have (or want) to see once...


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## benignBiotic (Dec 14, 2012)

> Next time a lion eats a gazelle, I'm gonna go scold it and see how that works out.


This has been brought up on this forum before, but I'm going to try again here. First of all there's a difference in degree and severity of the cruelty here. It's not at all as though the gazelle is a helpless piece of meat. It can run, fight back, it might even land a stab with its horns and maim the lion. The gazelle which is living its natural life from birth to death is entirely unlike a genetic Frankenstein of a pig that is confined and almost certainly tortured for its entire life. Times the millions of pigs raised in the U.S alone.

Then there's the stance that humans don't _need_ to eat meat. A properly balanced vegetarian diet is viable for the elderly, pregnant women, and sick people.  I find it very hard to believe that some particular person 'just can't be a vegetarian.' Those people just need to do a little more work to ensure they are getting the right nutrition for themselves. And because eating meat is _unnecessary_ the factory farming industry, which causes immense suffering to animals, is indefensible. It's reasonable to assume that most of us are living in reasonably developed areas of the world. We have options aside from eating factory meat. If we can avoid animal suffering why don't we? Laziness and/or sentimentality for meat I'd assume. Well if you are willing to cause unheard of amounts of suffering to get your fried chicken that's on you. Approx. 10 billion animals killed (not to mention bycatch and other collateral deaths) in the U.S and remember that 99% of our meat comes from factory farms today. 



> In a happy world, animals aren't put through inhumane or cruel methods  when they are killed and butchered. In a realistic world, I simply don't  think on it and just buy what I want at a grocery store and leave it at  that.


This lack of responsibility does not help the problem. Believe it or not the fac. farms need our capital to continue functioning. They know that if customers knew full well how the animals are treated many of them would stop buying meat so they go to crazy lengths to ensure a rosy image of farmers on idyllic ranches and happy chickens running around. They commit the acts, but if you buy meat you are endorsing them. "I wouldn't kick a dog, but I pay someone to do it for me."



> Meanwhile, all we do is wreck shit. I don't see how eating a steak is  any worse than driving a pollution-causing car in this day and age.


Humans no doubt 'wreck a lot of shit.' I just want to point out that the meat industry contributes more to global warming than does the worlds cars. "_Worldwide livestock farming  generates 18% of the planet's greenhouse  gas emissions â€” by comparison, all the world's cars, trains, planes and  boats account for a combined 13%."_ So eating stake (which encourages companies to keep raising cattle) is in a way worse that driving a pollution causing car. 

​


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## BRN (Dec 14, 2012)

benignBiotic said:


> This has been brought up on this forum before, but I'm going to try again here. First of all there's a difference in degree and severity of the cruelty here. It's not at all as though the gazelle is a helpless piece of meat. It can run, fight back, it might even land a stab with its horns and maim the lion. The gazelle which is living its natural life from birth to death is entirely unlike a genetic Frankenstein of a pig that is confined and almost certainly tortured for its entire life. Times the millions of pigs raised in the U.S alone.
> 
> Then there's the stance that humans don't _need_ to eat meat. A properly balanced vegetarian diet is viable for the elderly, pregnant women, and sick people. I find it very hard to believe that some particular person 'just can't be a vegetarian.' Those people just need to do a little more work to ensure they are getting the right nutrition for themselves. And because eating meat is _unnecessary_ the factory farming industry, which causes immense suffering to animals, is indefensible. It's reasonable to assume that most of us are living in reasonably developed areas of the world. We have options aside from eating factory meat. If we can avoid animal suffering why don't we? Laziness and/or sentimentality for meat I'd assume. Well if you are willing to cause unheard of amounts of suffering to get your fried chicken that's on you. Approx. 10 billion animals killed (not to mention bycatch and other collateral deaths) in the U.S and remember that 99% of our meat comes from factory farms today.
> 
> ...




I have to say I incredibly respect the way you've phrased this post, and agree with each and every claim you're making. The problem isn't your factual correctness and it's true that, biologically, vegeterianism is sustainable; economically, a vegeterian diet is cheaper; morally, the utilitarian point can't be argued; technologically, it's possible; ecologically, cow farts do more than just smell.

However, restructuring this post and changing its arguments could easily say the same things about, say, capitalism - indefensible, unsustainable, immoral, and leads to suffering. The trouble isn't that you need to providing a convincing case for vegetarianism to change the world, or a convincing case against the standing system; to get a genuine, emotional alignment to your case, you need people to empathise with what you're saying, enough to raise their voice.

That "sentimental attachment to meat" you covered is a far stronger barrier to vegeterianism than it sounds like. Asking the man on the clapham omnibus to give up meat [tasteful, nutritious, naturally produced {or so the marketing says}] in the name of good-will towards animals... a truly scary proportion of people have never seen the sea, have never been to a zoo, or even believe that supermarkets grow meat. It's food for thought, if you'll pardon the pun.


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## Toshabi (Dec 14, 2012)

Aight, I was busy getting laid and I didn't see all the CRAZY ASS SHIT that went on when I was away from keyboard.

And apparently, I was called out by some jerkwad. So, time to have a battle of wits. >:[




DepressedNutella said:


> Spoken like a true jerkwad. I love it how you're sliding it far up the scale, in a deliberate attempt to sway from the crux of the issue because _you don't give a damn_. I'm not asking for food animals to be treated like kings, I'm asking those responsible not to be jerks about it when they are slaughtering them. As in, not doing sick shit like mutilating them while they're still concious, stuff that is actually illegal to do.
> 
> Go watch a video of a slaughterhouse that's not following the correct protocol by taking short cuts at the expense of animal welfare. Animals being beaten and cut up alive, hooks through its bum while awake, etc. How is that acceptable in any shape or form? Because it's only a "food" animal, it means it's ok?



So? Your point? The animal is getting killed and nature wouldn't be very kind to that animal if, say, a predator animal sank its fangs into it's neck and bleed it to death while it lay helpless on the floor. And yes, because it IS food. It's whole purpose in life is to end up on our plates. I hope you don't go through the same sort of emotional break down when your mommy is cutting up cabbage. 

You should watch some videos of wolves/lions killing their meals, or hell, just turn on the discovery channel every once in a while. Maybe I should write a rant about how animals aren't humanely killing their food and force them onto a bullshit tofu diet so that we can all be circle jerking nimrods like you want us all to be. 





DepressedNutella said:


> Right about what?
> 
> He's being condescending about people caring about something he doesn't. A food animal might be food to us, but it isn't an inanimate object. Maybe this "Toshabi" should grow the fuck up and realise that, instead of looking like a tool. And as for "they're going to be killed anyway, so what's it matter" is the dumbest line of reasoning I've seen all week. My dog of a few years ago suffered from a painful terminal cancer, and we had to put him down. Ultimately I'm not saving him from a fate of death either, but that doesn't give anyone the right to give him a slow and painful death. By your logic it wouldn't have mattered if the vet had tortured the dog with garden clippers because he was going to die anyway. It's the same with a friggin' cow, or any other animal for that matter. The point is, that food animal or otherwise, shouldn't be subjected to torture, and is deserving of a humane putdown. I don't eat McDonald's because it's disgusting anyway, I buy local produce meat and *hope* our animal cruelty laws are strictly enforced in most slaughterhouses where I live. So keep your stupid assumptions to yourself.



So you EAT your dog? People joke that chinese food is made out of dogs and cats, it's not to be taken literal. But seriously, did you just compare your dog to livestock? And here you where, calling someone's line of reasoning "the dumbest". 




DepressedNutella said:


> And yes, it makes me feel better.




Great! Perfect! You're only doing this because it makes YOU feel better. Glad we got that shit straightened up. You fall exactly in the category I explained earlier in this thread. All we need is for you to not be a vegan and your entire argument goes down the shitter.





DepressedNutella said:


> You don't even know what I do about said issues, or how I go about my lifestyle with them so you can fuck the right off pal.
> 
> I am not even a vegetarian. I am a meat eater.





And there it is. It also looks like you've failed to even state what you do about said 'problem'. You're just the typical moron who can bark a good game but doesn't have the nuts to do anything about it other than to bitch about it on a public forum for all to see, just so you can get that "OOOO! I FEEL SO GOOD FOR SAYING THAT THIS IS BAD ^_^". 


Such insolence! Such arrogance!


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## Ozriel (Dec 14, 2012)

Gr8fulFox said:


> Kosher slaughtering is actually pretty cruel; the animal is strung upside-down and, while fully conscious, is bled to death by having its neck slit. Here's a video of the Kosher slaughtering process. BE WARNED! It's pretty damn graphic. And I'm not trying to make you or anyone feel terrible about eating Kosher beef, just getting the facts out there.
> 
> Edit: and just to throw this out there, I didn't get all my facts about Kosher beef from that one video; I got them from the movie "Faces of Death". That... that's a movie you only have (or want) to see once...




The way that Kosher is done is one of a few slaughtering techniques used thousands of years ago.
Granted, Jewish and Islamic traditions dictates that you have to treat the animal well before killing it. I don't know if the western Jewish and Muslims still adhere to that.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 14, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> The way that Kosher is done is one of a few slaughtering techniques used thousands of years ago.
> Granted, Jewish and Islamic traditions dictates that you have to treat the animal well before killing it. I don't know if the western Jewish and Muslims still adhere to that.



for the record kosher isnt strung upside down, that goes against kosher._I_ do kosher. the animal is renderd DEAD and insensible to pain right after the cut. Captive bolt guns can miss and cause extraordinary pain. Its kind of hard to fuck up almost beheading an animal.  If done right you cut the nerve that makes them feel the need to breathe as well.


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## Ozriel (Dec 14, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> for the record kosher isnt strung upside down, that goes against kosher._I_ do kosher. the animal is renderd DEAD and insensible to pain right after the cut. Captive bolt guns can miss and cause extraordinary pain. Its kind of hard to fuck up almost beheading an animal.  If done right you cut the nerve that makes them feel the need to breathe as well.



That's why I said one. A few believe that the seizures are its soul going to god. Though the man at who slaughtered the goat Eid-al-Fitir  slit the throat at the wrong point fucked it up.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 14, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> That's why I said one. A few believe that the seizures are its soul going to god. Though the man at who slaughtered the goat Eid-al-Fitir  slit the throat at the wrong point fucked it up.



you are suppose to slit under the jaw. Thats where you sever that nerve. It is true animals do have death twitch, hell even people do. Its not like the movies.


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## Ozriel (Dec 14, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> you are suppose to slit under the jaw. Thats where you sever that nerve. It is true animals do have death twitch, hell even people do. Its not like the movies.



It wasn't under the jaw.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 14, 2012)

Ozriel said:


> It wasn't under the jaw.



then he doesnt need to slaughter animals.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 14, 2012)

I understand that in nature there is unimagineable cruelty. As Sentient beings I would hope we could recognise this and try to avoid adding any more.


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## BRN (Dec 14, 2012)

Fallowfox said:


> I understand that in nature there is unimagineable cruelty. As Sentient beings I would hope we could recognise this and try to avoid adding any more.


Take the natural order of things - a proportion of things die slowly and painfully, a proportion of things die extremely quickly and gorily, and all things die - and add one species artificially extending the existence of several other species, after generations of forcing them to rape each other through eugenics processing, through the induced birth of billions of lives for the express purpose of them being raised as quickly as possible to the point considered economical to kill them in the cheapest fashion.

Hm. Maybe I should experiment with vegetarianism sometime.


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## Azure (Dec 14, 2012)

When it makes the meat not tasty. But that'll never happen. I'm all for humane treatment and slaughter because it simply produces BETTER TASTING MEAT. Look at that stuff at Wal-Mart, does that even look like meat? I say hell no. And whats up with all the solution injections, WHY ARE YOU FILLING MY MEAT WITH WATER? Oh, because it's shite, and because you never let it walk around or eat anything beyond GMO bullshit, and probably because it is either sick or so pumped full of antibiotics that it could never be sick even after rooting around in its own filth for 18 months. If that long.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 14, 2012)

Azure said:


> When it makes the meat not tasty. But that'll never happen. I'm all for humane treatment and slaughter because it simply produces BETTER TASTING MEAT. Look at that stuff at Wal-Mart, does that even look like meat? I say hell no. And whats up with all the solution injections, WHY ARE YOU FILLING MY MEAT WITH WATER? Oh, because it's shite, and because you never let it walk around or eat anything beyond GMO bullshit, and probably because it is either sick or so pumped full of antibiotics that it could never be sick even after rooting around in its own filth for 18 months. If that long.




also they pump it full of gasses to keep the red color.


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## KookiesNKreamCollie (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't eat meat often. But that's because I've seen an animal slaughtered, i was maybe 5 or 6 and my school went on a trip to a farm. After feeding the animals etc we were shown birds of prey and paradise. I saw a shed with a door open because he had stopped talking. Then a guy with a chicken went in. The door closed but banged back, so I could see. Then SLICE the chickens neck poured of blood. Mentally scarred...


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## HipsterCoyote (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't understand the statement earlier that, paraphrased, was like, "But humans stack the odds against prey animals so terribly it is unreal.  At least prey animal X has a fighting chance against apex predator X."   

I do get it in part, I think, because humans make killing animals a huge industry taken for granted and you can paint a horrible picture with parts of the meat industry in general, yeah. But I don't see how "in the wild" compares in any way that is positive.  I see "the odds are stacked where a human is involved" and "The animal is helpless to the human so that's not fair" in the whole view and those are the things I don't click with.  Am I understanding it incorrectly?

I don't get the "the odds are stacked" angle to some extent because _*no*, _a prey animal does *not* have a fighting chance against its predator because if it *did* then it wouldn't be that predator's prey animal.  A prey animal's odds are stacked nearly by definition because predators eat animals that are efficient targets. You don't see alligators going after hippos.  You don't see cats trying to eat badgers.  You see them pick fights they know they'll win. 

I also don't get the, "The animal is helpless in the slaughter house so that's bad" angle.  I don't because ... If the animal is properly slaughtered then boom, it's _dead_.  Bolt to the head, slit in the throat, if it's a small animal they will smash its head in such as against the floor to one-shot it dead, sometimes they are gassed (not fucking zyklon-b gassing, like 'You pass out and now you die in your sleep' gassing) ...done.  Done.  We are setting aside the horror story slaughter houses because they don't seem to be the issue: it seems to me that the animal being part of a slaughter house picture at _all_ is the issue.Well, in the wild you get the "Let's eviscerate you and eat you alive while you bleed out" treatment, or the "Let's pick you up and drop you over and over and give you amazing internal wounds and eat you alive while you bleed out" treatment, or the "Let's slowly suffocate you to death and eat you alive" treatment, or the "Let's snap your neck and you actually probably won't die until we eat you alive" treatment and they're all fucking _horrifying_ ways to die.  

If an animal being in pain or experiencing fear is what somebody wants to avoid, why the _hell_ would they want an animal's natural predator anywhere near it?  I have had to mercy kill enough livestock that got their "fighting  chance" and came out with broken legs, broken necks, ripped off faces,  and traumatic amputations to not agree *at all *with that idea that, "Yeah well at least in the wild animals get a fighting chance against their predators" thing.  Limp away to live another day my ass.   There are a few animals that are the exceptions that prove the rule rather than exceptions _to_ the rule, yeah.  I've seen all of two. One of them is a deer who hangs out on our acreage now because she has three legs and we make sure she gets something to eat.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 20, 2012)

This is just for the sake of fact

In natural environments predators have low success rates, typically perhaps 30%. Most hunts in natural environments are not successful, otherwise populations would crash as food supplies become rapidly exhausted.

Not that nature is our role model, in the natural environment there is much horror and gore- and it is not even born out of necessity [some creatures, like Orca, deliberately torture or frighten their prey as a form of sport]. 

There's plenty suffering in the world, so I'd personally like to avoid adding more than I can avoid.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 20, 2012)

@ HipsterCoyote: If you don't like the wild animals live better lives angle then ignore it. It wasn't crucial to my argument. What I meant when I brought that up was "Hey at least wild animals get to see sunlight, eat for themselves, and lead a natural life." I'd rather have an animal live its natural life, including the high probability of predator attack, than run it through the factory system. You're going after the 'fairness' argument a lot. It's a matter of fairness, but it's more so a matter of avoiding suffering, for myself at least. The animal in question either lives a tortured and unnatural life with a swift end (not guaranteed of course) or live a free, natural life with a probably gruesome end? I choose the latter. And I insist that plenty of prey animals have tricks and mechanisms to evade predators. Whether they are more agile or have defense mechanisms some prey animals will struggle for their lives and see another day. Lil' warthogs man they're fuggin swift.

If you think about it the animals death is the least worrisome situation. Many factories, calling them farms is a joke, have faulty equipment ("I'm not paying to fix that!") which fails to kill the animal so they end up conscious for their 'processing.' Awful. But before their death is their nightmare of a life. Genetic Frankensteins whose meaty parts are so overgrown that the animals can't walk. Rampant disease (which has negative implications for humans). Being starved and fed an unnatural diet (IE: Grains and corn for cows because it's cheaper).

You're talking a lot about 'death' and 'fairness' which are important parts of the discussion but are secondary to the worst of the suffering which is endured in the animals life. The factory farming industry is, in my eyes and the eyes of many others, disgusting. So the question becomes is the system necessary or not? (Hint: It's not)



> There's plenty suffering in the world, so I'd personally like to avoid adding more than I can avoid.


Haha, word.


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## HipsterCoyote (Dec 20, 2012)

Okay, I thought that the whole thing you were talking about was  "fairness" and how they die.  Since that isn't the root of your argument  then that's cool, but, my point was that was stupid if that was the end  of the reasons why.  "You horrible human your gun makes it so unfair"  is all I hear from the local fucks who moved in from their little,  stepford bubble into a ranching community and are _shocked _that  we hunt.  Yes, it does make it unfair but to me that's what makes it  humane because it's dead almost instantly, not fucking fighting for its  life.  Then again they are also mad at me for killing their precious dog  so they give me a bunch of retarded flak.  It wasn't very precious to  you if you let me kill it. 

For the record what happened - 
Your dog shouldn't b_e miles away from your home_  completely unmonitored, multiple times.  Three times had this dog followed me  home.  It's not the dog's fault.  It's just doing its dog thing.  It  was THEIR fault for not getting a fence for the dog in a huge, winding  "neighborhood" where houses are fucking miles apart from each other and  the cars subsequently fire through the road at 50 miles an hour so your  dog can get run over around a blind corner....And half of the people who  live here own livestock and will SHOOT YOUR DOG if it threatens their  animals just like they would a coyote.  In fact, fences are a requirement in this neighborhood.  They were mid-construction of their home so they could get away with it.  SO FIND A FRIEND TO KEEP YOUR FUCKING DOG.  PLENTY OF US CAN DO THIS FOR YOU, ESPECIALLY IF YOU PAY US SO WE CAN FEED THE DOG YOU DECIDED TO PURCHASE AS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. 

You are lucky that I brought it  back to you.  Three times.  And then I fucking _told you_ if it  got loose again, you irresponsible fuck, I would either keep the dog as  my own pet or I would get the fuck rid of it, whether by giving it to an  owner with an IQ above room temperature or giving it to the Pets Alive  no-kill people as an abandoned dog I found, or... 

Like three weeks later it fucking dug under my fence (my  fenced in animals are not the digging kind; it was a very tall fence  but a very shallow fence), ripped my baby goat's _face off_ and  broke Milkdud's neck and I guess finally got chased off by Hidalgo  because he came out of this with a crooked horn and one eye. I fucking  shot the dog -- Dakota? Some yuppy-people-own-a-dog name -- without stopping and asking you if you were okay with it  because I told you I had a problem with your dog on my property three  times already and now it's trying to kill my animals so you can fuck  right off.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 20, 2012)

I haven't thought about it too much but I'm surprisingly OK with hunting. Not canned hunting of course, but garden variety hunting. This is because I've known hunters who were really kind and respectful toward nature. They only took a shot if it would kill instantly and used as much of the animal as possible. Of course there are hunters who give these good oens a bad name. Need to give the topic more thought...

Those people sound like morons. They let the dog out for the fourth time. I don't think you should have shot it, but ignoring that it's their fault! You told them their situation and they irresponsibly let the dog out three more times. If you aren't going to keep your pet safe you shouldn't own one.


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 20, 2012)

benignBiotic said:


> I haven't thought about it too much but I'm surprisingly OK with hunting. Not canned hunting of course, but garden variety hunting. This is because I've known hunters who were really kind and respectful toward nature. They only took a shot if it would kill instantly and used as much of the animal as possible. Of course there are hunters who give these good oens a bad name. Need to give the topic more thought...
> 
> Those people sound like morons. They let the dog out for the fourth time. I don't think you should have shot it, but ignoring that it's their fault! You told them their situation and they irresponsibly let the dog out three more times. If you aren't going to keep your pet safe you shouldn't own one.




I guess you never owned livestock, they are expensive. The dog WOULD have come back to do it again. Life of the livestock>runamuck dog


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## HipsterCoyote (Dec 20, 2012)

It didn't feel terribly fantastic shooting it and in retrospect I agree that I probably shouldn't have shot it but I made an emotional decision since even though I do eat my goats eventually, they are my pets.  They have names, know tricks, et cetera.  And really, if I had given it back to the owners, the chance that it'd happen again really isn't worth while. 

Yeah, they are furthermore expensive to maintain.  You can't just let them roam happy in a pasture full of dreams and fluff and starlight.  Your animals graze constantly but on foiliage that isn't always dense enough with the right nutrients.  Even if you aren't a horror story factory farm, you have to buy "unnatural corn and grain" in order to keep them healthy.  We have multiple acres of property where they can graze, but they will be malnourished if they don't get fed by us.  We get their protein to them, for instance, through the alfalfa and clover mixed into the feed pellets.  Corn is fed to them as a treat (in my specific instance).  Then there's the medical care.  Even if an animal never gets sick or hurt to go to the vet, you still have to do routine care just like you have to do for a house pet.  Try doing that for upwards of 30 pets.

On the plus side you can self-medicate for CHEAP with ranch supply veterinarian-grade medicine.


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## benignBiotic (Dec 20, 2012)

HipsterCoyote said:


> It didn't feel terribly fantastic shooting it and in retrospect I agree that I probably shouldn't have shot it but I made an emotional decision since even though I do eat my goats eventually, they are my pets.  They have names, know tricks, et cetera.


I understand. I know I said you shouldn't have shot him, but as I thought abuot the situation I realized I might have done what you did :/


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## Ad Hoc (Dec 22, 2012)

I eat little meat. The meat I do eat, I raise and kill myself, or it is raised/killed by someone that I know and trust. I was vegetarian before. It did not work out with a particular genetic condition of mine. This is my solution, although it is something I grapple with. Going from the person who picked worms out of puddles to the person who spills what regularly was quite a change. (Granted, I still pick worms out of puddles, time willing.)

Full disclosure: I consume a lot of other animal products (rennet, wool, gelatin, etc.,) from factory sources unknowingly or because I don't have the energy or will to abstain. Biggest thing is pet food; I do not currently raise the food of my four cats and two dogs. That is a significant oversight, but I lack the means to really fix it presently, shy of finding some means to no longer be caring for my cats and dogs anymore. Hypocrite!

For this, it is find it difficult to judge others on the animal-consumption issue. It is easily complicated by economic, cultural, and other individual circumstances. I can only try to do what I feel is right and possible within my own situation -- can't really demand that someone else do more than that. 

But I am wary of those who claim not to care at all and, of course, those odd few who go out of their way to cause more suffering. Even getting away from the animals, it is a rather troubling personality trait, and I treat it like something of a self-defense issue to avoid such people. Sort of lump them in with people who abuse waitstaff -- just don't need someone with that kind of empathy failure/powertripping in one's life. (And report overt animal abusers to the authorities, of course.)



Gr8fulFox said:


> Kosher slaughtering is actually pretty cruel; the animal is strung upside-down and, while fully conscious, is bled to death by having its neck slit. Here's a video of the Kosher slaughtering process. BE WARNED! It's pretty damn graphic. And I'm not trying to make you or anyone feel terrible about eating Kosher beef, just getting the facts out there.


"Kosher/Halal" slaughter's no different from Western-style slaughter. It can be done well or done poorly, depending on the person's experience and ultimate goals (if they are really concerned about the animal or if they are looking at the bottom line). Done well, it is very humane. I have seen both ends as well as performed the atheist equivalent. (It doesn't technically count as kosher/halal if someone who is not "of the book" does it.)

In general, when feasible, it is best to get away from factory-slaughtered meat of any sort if you are concerned about the animal's welfare. But that is not always feasible, and some people focus their moral energies on other issues. 

Also, your avatar, it is mesmerizing.


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## Icen (Dec 22, 2012)

Ad Hoc said:


> Full disclosure: I consume a lot of other animal products (rennet, wool, gelatin, etc.,) from factory sources unknowingly or because I don't have the energy or will to abstain. Biggest thing is pet food; I do not currently raise the food of my four cats and two dogs. That is a significant oversight, but I lack the means to really fix it presently, shy of finding some means to no longer be caring for my cats and dogs anymore. Hypocrite!
> 
> For this, it is find it difficult to judge others on the animal-consumption issue. It is easily complicated by economic, cultural, and other individual circumstances. I can only try to do what I feel is right and possible within my own situation -- can't really demand that someone else do more than that.


It's a truly difficult thing to avoid any use of animal agriculture in Westernized/privileged countries. Some vegans I have met will go to private butchers (so, non factory farms) and get meat for their dogs and cats there. Since I won't ever be able to have a cat (since the boy has severe allergies and cats cannot produce taurine naturally) I am going to try to put my future dogs on a vegetarian diet. If it does not bode well with their individual nutritional needs, I will do what I personally can to get better quality dog food, or god forbid, "humane meat".

Also just being a humane person in said-society; you'd have to be excruciatingly rich to do it. To always buy organic, locally-grown, fair-trade, vegan, made in America and always with fair pair/rights. I can't even do that no matter how hard I try.

But it's about trying, and it's about having your heart/morals in the right place. We can't cry over every single bug we accidentally step on or mourn every time we hit a rabbit on the road that rushed in front of our cars...as sad as it is. =/


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## Fallowfox (Dec 22, 2012)

Icen is correct. It is unreasonable to expect everyone else, or even yourself, to live in a way that completely minimises the harm they do. What we can reasonably do though cummulates to make a larger difference, so any effort it is a good thing.


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