# Cost to develop a major website



## jcfynx (Sep 24, 2011)

I've been putting together design and planning for a pretty involved website; my lack of computer knowledge has not served me well in this, but it's starting to come together fairly well.

What I'm curious about, Internet, is how much you would estimate a project like this might cost to develop. I've done estimates with Online calculators from around *$10,000 to $30,000,* but this is more difficult and specific, I think, than they were programmed to handle.

Essentially, I'm looking to build a site that will match bored people on the Internet with deserving charities who need virtual tasks done. In exchange, these people will receive _points that will earn them achievements and levels_ and which can also be _spent on fabulous prizes._ Each task could be something very general and simple, like Internet research, or specific and specialized like designing a logo. To approximate, I'm looking to put the following features in to the site:

: User registration and profiles with detailed information including background, resume, skills, and accomplishments on the site
: Detailed registration page for charities
: Forum
: Separate viewable profiles for charities to rate and review users before accepting tasks
: System to post new tasks, search for and accept tasks, submit completed tasks, and review the quality of completed tasks
: News feed
: Connectivity with Facebook
: Google Adsense
: User subscription via Paypal for optional features
: Optional donation via Paypal for charities when posting a task
: System to give points, achievements, levels, and badges
: System to exchange points for real-life gift cards

This is my first foray into doing something like this, so any advice on how to best go about finding someone to publish it and what you'd expect to pay them.

And yes, I trust Internet animal people more than Google search. This may or may not be a wise decision.


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## Aden (Sep 24, 2011)

It's not going to be cheap. Existing CMS solutions aren't going to be specific enough for your purposes - the best route would probably be to find a firm that would do your coding from the ground up (rather than bolt it onto an existing product), and that gets expensive fast. I couldn't begin to estimate how much that would cost since I haven't shopped around in that area, but I know for sure that getting it for as inexpensive as $10k is unreasonable.

What kind of depth are you looking at for when, say, a charity posts a new task? How customizable should tasks and profiles be? What kind of model are you looking at for submitting a completed task (e.g. image gallery?)?

Cool idea btw


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## jcfynx (Sep 24, 2011)

Thank you, you are such a sweetiepaws. :]

I've only used calculators to estimate the cost, and I'm sure they aren't enough to cover the full breadth of a site, so the estimations could be wildly off. 

The site is going to reduce the details of profiles and tasks down to variables as often as possible. A user could, for example, check "graphic design" and "skill level: high," which could be listed as a requirement for a particular task. There are around two-hundred and fifty possible variables, though I'm sure it's not the scale of them that's as important as the implementation of the system. It would preferably be designed in such a way that there is a minimum of work that needs to be done by any user, so reducing interactive pages to simple strings of text, check boxes, and links looks like the way to go. User avatars as well, of course.

Profiles would look something like this:

Name, registration date
Resume
Skill check boxes
Link to homepage
Avatar
Points and level
Badges won

Tasks will be open-ended so as to allow as much freedom as possible and completed entirely off-site. The task page itself only informs the user of what he needs to do; it's up to him to complete it on his own terms and return to the site when it is completed.

Completed tasks would be submitted via a form with an attachment of the completed project in any file format; Something very straightforward and simple, just a "browse" and "submit" button, most likely. The charity would receive it on the site and have the ability to accept or reject the task and then review the work with several check boxes.


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## Aden (Sep 24, 2011)

I wish I was more experienced with giving estimates so I could give you a solid range for design and front-end development! My freelance career was too short, unfortunately, so I never really got good at the numbers game. 

Should probably just go with a proven firm for the back-end development/solutions at least. Ask around and see what businesses people recommend. Maybe you could get a good freelancer for design and front-end stuff (and possibly mid-tier dev) to work with them and that might cut costs. Shop around, get a bunch of estimates from good companies and people.

One thing I should mention regarding the concept of the site itself:
Keep in mind that most mid- to high-tier graphic designers et al. will not do spec work. I disagree with it on principle as well. It would be good to think of a way to compensate people for their time whether their ideas get chosen or not (provided, of course, they put in a good effort). Having the designers of rejected ideas keep rights to their work should also be emphasized.


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## Ricky (Sep 24, 2011)

The forums and news feed: there's a ton of free shit out there.  Take your pick.

The rest of the stuff would need to be developed.  You could learn web programming and it would be almost free (though I'm not sure what your experience level is and when you deal with eCommerce stuff you wanna be careful) or you could hire someone to do it.  Or, do it yourslef and have someone to consult as a contractor.

It doesn't sound like the most simple design but by no means the most complicated but you have integration and stuff you gotta deal with, too.

If you were having someone else develop it entirely, I'd say 10K - 30K sounds reasonable, but make sure you factor in stuff like support (you gotta be able to support the application if there are bugs and stuff that made it past your acceptance testing).

It also has to do with experience level...  People who have dealt with Facebook and Paypal's API before would proabbly get stuff done much more quickly than those who haven't.

The design of the core application doesn't sound all that complicated; integration would probably be half of it.


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## Aden (Sep 24, 2011)

Ricky said:


> The rest of the stuff would need to be developed.  You could learn web programming and it would be almost free (though I'm not sure what your experience level is and when you deal with eCommerce stuff you wanna be careful) or you could hire someone to do it.  Or, do it yourslef and have someone to consult as a contractor.



Definitely wouldn't recommend doing this himself if he's not already experienced. jc, if you do try that route, at least hire someone to look over what you produce to plug security holes and squash bugs.


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## Runefox (Sep 24, 2011)

Ballparked, basically at cost you're looking at around $3,000 at the very bottom for the site you're talking about, in terms of labour alone. Adding in the cost of hosting, SSL cert(s), domain registration, etc, you're looking at adding about $200+ per year for a site at this level of complexity (assuming you don't want a VPS host or dedicated host, and are OK with shared hosting; Otherwise, you're looking at closer to $500-1,000 per year for VPS, closer to $2,000 per year for dedicated).

$3000 breaks down into the design, coding/CMS setup/mods, overall server setup, Facebook/etc integration, etc.


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## jcfynx (Sep 25, 2011)

Aden said:


> Definitely wouldn't recommend doing this himself if he's not already experienced. jc, if you do try that route, at least hire someone to look over what you produce to plug security holes and squash bugs.



I wish I were one of those magic men who could wizard up new pages over the Internet. Unfortunately, I am not. :'[



Runefox said:


> Ballparked, basically at cost you're looking at around $3,000 at the very bottom for the site you're talking about, in terms of labour alone. Adding in the cost of hosting, SSL cert(s), domain registration, etc, you're looking at adding about $200+ per year for a site at this level of complexity (assuming you don't want a VPS host or dedicated host, and are OK with shared hosting; Otherwise, you're looking at closer to $500-1,000 per year for VPS, closer to $2,000 per year for dedicated).
> 
> $3000 breaks down into the design, coding/CMS setup/mods, overall server setup, Facebook/etc integration, etc.



$3,000, are you for serious? If that's true, this is many times simpler than I'd ever thought.


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## Aden (Sep 25, 2011)

Runefox said:


> $3000 breaks down into the design, coding/CMS setup/mods, overall server setup, Facebook/etc integration, etc.



That sounds extremely cheap; where you pulling that number from?


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## Runefox (Sep 25, 2011)

Aden said:


> That sounds extremely cheap; where you pulling that number from?


I did say that price was the very bottom of the barrel - That's about what my old employer (local computer shop) would have charged for a site of this complexity back when I was working for them. We routinely did some websites at around $1000 or less. The assumed rate of pay coming from the client was $10-15 CAD per hour at lowest.


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## Ricky (Sep 25, 2011)

Runefox said:


> I did say that price was the very bottom of the barrel - That's about what my old employer (local computer shop) would have charged for a site of this complexity back when I was working for them. We routinely did some websites at around $1000 or less. The assumed rate of pay coming from the client was $10-15 CAD per hour at lowest.



We charge $1000 for ~ 4 hours worth of work.  I think that's a bit low...

Then again, $10/hour is basically minimum wage here.  Are there really web developers who work at that rate?

This isn't someting you could do by just throwing up a CMS and "modding" the software.  This is custom dev with Facebook + Paypal integration, and good amount of it at that.

(Given PayPal does have a "light" version where you are redirected to one of their forms on their site, but that's crappy UE).

You could take a "hackish" approach and try to repurpose free software and mods that are already out there, but that is NEVER a good idea and you always back yourself into a corner doing that (not to mention it's not even possible given these specifics).  The forums and RSS...  Well, yeah -- no need to re-invent the wheel (and you shouldn't) but for the ratings, tasks, points, achievements, levels, badges you would need schema and CRUD for all that shit not to mention a model with session handling/authentication (and you may want to integrate that with the forums later on) and implement ALL the views/controllers after designing the wireframe, yadda, yadda...  There are some automated tools and standard frameworks you could use to speed things up a bit if you know what you're doing but that's still not *that* easy a task.

Also, Paypal and Facebook integration...  If you've ever dealt with integration you'd know there's ALWAYS problems.  I've worked with both of those and I don't think that in itself could be done in less than a week or so given 8 hours a day.  If you aren't familiar with their API's, multiply that number by 2 or more (probably more).

I'm guessing if sites are done for that cheap it's not actual dev (let alone eCommerce stuff) but rather a flat site or maybe setting up a CMS.

That's just my opinion though.


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## AshleyAshes (Sep 25, 2011)

Runefox said:


> That's about what my old employer (local computer shop)



Your boss also didn't pay his taxes, paid you under the table and you were eventually fined for years of tax evasion yourself as a result.  That probably factors into the lowball price.


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## Runefox (Sep 26, 2011)

Ricky said:


> We charge $1000 for ~ 4 hours worth of work.  I think that's a bit low...
> 
> Then again, $10/hour is basically minimum wage here.  Are there really web developers who work at that rate?


Yep. And while I'm inclined to think that while $10/hour is extremely low, $250/hour is a bit high, and I'm sure many non-highprofile corporate clients would think similarly.



> This isn't someting you could do by just throwing up a CMS and "modding" the software.  This is custom dev with Facebook + Paypal integration, and good amount of it at that.


No, it is. The difference is that you'd be using a fair amount of different codebases instead of one. Upside, however, is that it's far easier to manage and control the site with a standard CMS unless you're able to pull something out of your ass that works similar to that in a couple of hours, especially at $1000 for 4 hours.



> You could take a "hackish" approach and try to repurpose free software and mods that are already out there, but that is NEVER a good idea and you always back yourself into a corner doing that (not to mention it's not even possible given these specifics).  The forums and RSS...  Well, yeah -- no need to re-invent the wheel (and you shouldn't) but for the ratings, tasks, points, achievements, levels, badges you would need schema and CRUD for all that shit not to mention a model with session handling/authentication (and you may want to integrate that with the forums later on) and implement ALL the views/controllers after designing the wireframe, yadda, yadda...  There are some automated tools and standard frameworks you could use to speed things up a bit if you know what you're doing but that's still not *that* easy a task.


Tasks can be handled by Eventum, the major challenge associated with which would be connecting it to everything else, something that can easily be handled if you're determined to build a site like this from scratch anyway. Points, achievements, levels, badges, there are usually plenty of forum plugins for that kind of thing that can be integrated directly into a Joomla!-based CMS via CommunityBuilder and a bridge (which if you need to, you can develop yourself).



> Also, Paypal and Facebook integration...  If you've ever dealt with integration you'd know there's ALWAYS problems.  I've worked with both of those and I don't think that in itself could be done in less than a week or so given 8 hours a day.  If you aren't familiar with their API's, multiply that number by 2 or more (probably more).


The first site I did had Paypal integration, though this was long enough ago that I didn't do that myself - That said, Paypal is pretty easy to set up and work with when it comes to that. There are plugins available for Joomla! for it, for one, and two - again - coding it yourself isn't a huge issue. Facebook is a little different, but- oh, okay, there's plenty of places to start depending on what you're looking for, anyway.



> I'm guessing if sites are done for that cheap it's not actual dev (let alone eCommerce stuff) but rather a flat site or maybe setting up a CMS.


That's basically it. The thing is, though, for a site that complicated, do you want a proprietary solution complete with proprietary controls, or something that's more or less standardized? Joomla! and Wordpress are dead simple to work with, particularly since there's so much documentation available out there for controlling them. I took a web development job after leaving that other place, and the main requirement was that it be done using Joomla! for that exact reason.



AshleyAshes said:


> Your boss also didn't pay his taxes, paid you  under the table and you were eventually fined for years of tax evasion  yourself as a result.  That probably factors into the lowball  price.


No, that just factors into my low rate of pay. I've had many clients go wide-eyed at low $1000 estimates.


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## Ricky (Sep 26, 2011)

*facepalms*

Look, he was asking how much it costs to actually develop a website.

Not install Joomla with plugins.

If he wants to go that route and hack something together, good luck getting it to actually do what you want.

You could do that yourself.  Just install MySQL and Joomla and search the 'net for plugins.

Oh by the way, _that is not_ web development :roll:


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## Runefox (Sep 26, 2011)

Ricky said:


> *facepalms*
> Look, he was asking how much it costs to actually develop a website.


A relatively simple website by the standards of a "true" web developer, yes.



> Not install Joomla with plugins.


Which is a far less expensive alternative than getting someone to sit on their ass and shit out code for $250/hour.



> If he wants to go that route and hack something together, good luck getting it to actually do what you want.


And if he wants to go the route of getting someone to hack something together out of nothing, good luck getting it to actually do what you want without adding on maybe a hundred more hours of work for a proper functional control panel to manage all of the features you want.



> You could do that yourself.  Just install MySQL and Joomla and search the 'net for plugins.


Which is my point exactly - There is no need to hire a web developer for $10-30k to shit out a site of this calibre.



> Oh by the way, _that is not_ web development :roll:


Oh, isn't it?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Web development* is a broad term for the work involved in developing a web site for the Internet (World Wide Web) or an intranet (a private network). This can include *web design, web content development, client liaison, client-side/server-side scripting, web server and network security configuration, and e-commerce  development*. However, among web professionals, "web development"  usually refers to the main non-design aspects of building web sites: * writing markup* and coding. *Web development can range from developing the simplest static single page of plain text to the most complex web-based internet applications, electronic businesses, or social network services.*



Oh hey, none of that specifically requires writing the code base from scratch. Derp. Guess it _is_ web development then, and you're just trying to feel secure about the fact that boxed solutions often work just as well or better than custom-built solutions, at a literal fraction of the price. Where _your_ concept of web development comes into play is where VERY specific internet applications need to be developed. This does not apply.

The majority (but not all) of sites I did while working at that computer shop were based on Joomla! based on time concerns. While working there, I was a PC technician, salesman, and builder, ordered stock, did service calls, etc, while building these sites. Generally sites required at least some modification to get it where the client wanted it, and by using Joomla!, it saved time and cut expenses on both ends. For most general websites, a CMS like Joomla! or Wordpress _will_ suffice, with minor or major modification, and in general, it will also be easier to support for future technicians and developers than some contrived bullshit that "true" web developers shit out (which has in the past been a MAJOR source of contention with clients I've dealt with in the past who had previously dealt with such "true" developers), and is more easily expandable, potentially without requiring the services of a developer in the future. These are incredible boons to any small business, organization or individual who is looking to create a web presence, and it's my firm belief that the only place for "true" web developers is in the corporate office.

Anyway, I get it, this is your livelihood I'm devaluing here. But the fact of the matter is, the kind of services you're talking about, they aren't the only or even most appropriate course of action for this situation.


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## Ricky (Sep 26, 2011)

I love how you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, yet continue to argue.

This isn't the first time though.

I'm going to get back to work now (making a lot more than $10 an hour).


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## Runefox (Sep 26, 2011)

Actually, I don't particularly care at this point. I'm reasonably well-assured that my point's been made, and I'm also reasonably well-asured that I'm fighting an uphill battle with someone who's basically advertising and legitimizing themselves here. So go on and keep telling me I don't know what I'm talking about - I'm pretty sure I've got enough experience with people like OP to speak for what might be best for them, particularly where it comes to the economic aspect of things. It's no skin off my back which way the OP decides to go, but recommending that their best option is getting it custom-built with the potential consequences - financial, lock-in and otherwise - attached, I don't agree with that.


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## jcfynx (Sep 26, 2011)

Runefox said:


> I'm pretty sure I've got enough experience with people like OP to speak for what might be best for them, particularly where it comes to the economic aspect of things.



How do you know I'm not actually a bored, wealthy socialite? :3c

Excuse me while I go dive into my vat of gold coins and swim around in them some.


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## Runefox (Sep 26, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> How do you know I'm not actually a bored, wealthy socialite? :3c
> 
> Excuse me while I go dive into my vat of gold coins and swim around in them some.


This response is the best possible response.


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## Ricky (Sep 26, 2011)

Good luck with that!

Just realize Runefox is suggesting you replace features you're  requesting in your app with FORUM plugins (I'm assuming user ranks and  ratings):



> System to give points, achievements, levels, and badges





Runefox said:


> Points, achievements, levels, badges, there are  usually plenty of forum plugins for that kind of thing that can be  integrated directly into a Joomla!-based CMS via CommunityBuilder and a  bridge (which if you need to, you can develop yourself).



also, your tasks:



Runefox said:


> Tasks can be handled by Eventum, the major challenge associated with  which would be connecting it to everything else, something that can  easily be handled if you're determined to build a site like this from  scratch anyway.



Take a look at what she is suggesting you use:

http://www.redpill-linpro.com/content/view/full/332

I hope you can see how this is a bad idea.

Rune -- as far as this:



Runefox said:


> So go on and keep telling me I don't know what I'm talking about - I'm pretty sure I've got enough experience with people like OP to speak for what might be best for them, particularly where it comes to the economic aspect of things.



From the way I see it, you tell people you are a website developer, install Joomla and say "here you go!"  Not only is this a bad idea (and won't work the way he wants, at all) but you are basically a fraud.  I'm not even sure that's legal.  You are misrepresenting yourself, for one thing.

I'm not saying you don't have experience and you seem like you know Joomla pretty well but you shouldn't tell people you will develop a site like this and have that be your method of development deployment.  Again, you could probably hck something together that has at least a skeleton of the functionality but everything will be re-purposed in weird ways, the site will look weird and hackish (for that reason) and then you will get the inevitable "hey, I want to do this or make the site look / work in this way" requests and not be able to do a damned thing.

Not to mention repurposing whole applications for every basic feature requirement.

Eh, whatever.  Take it for what you will.


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