# Killing characters



## Conker (Nov 27, 2013)

Oh gawd. 

So, I've been working on a novel for the past two-ish months and it's going so well and I'm having a blast and OH GOD I AM WRITING A NOVEL!

I'm kind of concerned about something though. My characters are on this questy quest, and shit's hitting the fan like shit is wont to do in fantasy novels, and it really seems unrealistic for all three people to make it there and back again in one piece, ya know? I mean, I started writing this when I was reading _A Storm of Swords_ though now that that's far and away, my story has gone a bit softer in terms of how shitty everything is. The first two chapters will need to be rewritten when the time for editing comes.

But it still seems unrealistic for all of them to live. 

This one character kinda just fell into the party, and I was like "cool, I can kill him later or something and that'll be that." But man, I really like this character. He's fun as hell to write, and he kinda brings the comedy when shit really starts to suck. Hell, he isn't really that developed! But I kinda want to develop him more. He's cool.

Really like the other two characters as well. Don't really want to off them.

I know it's one of those "do what the story demands" and right now it demands they all live, but since I'm trying to think a few steps ahead so I'm not completely fucking myself into a plot-hole ridden corner, I figure I do have some control.

And I don't want anyone to die but that seems really unrealistic and might make me a total pussy.

I'm confused and sad. Thoughts?


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## Alexxx-Returns (Nov 27, 2013)

Oh man, have I been there.

My story has a central villain who _cannot_ be kept alive in any logical way but... I love him. He's my favourite character in the whole book. The original plan was to kill him off at the end of book 2, but I'm dreading that day, if I'm honest.

And then there's a supporting character who I decided to kill off at one point, but again, I grew WAY too fond of him and completely changed my mind.

All I can say is, if you feel too strongly about these characters, don't kill them off because it seems like it would happen. You never know, they might survive.

And also, it's WAY easier to kill off a character that you haven't let yourself get fond of. My story began with the image of a main character being killed, and with this in mind, I didn't let myself get too attached to him. Maybe there's potential to add in incidental characters for this purpose? Or something, I dunno man, it's your story, I can't tell you how to write it.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Nov 27, 2013)

Killing a deeply integrated member tells the reader you're not afraid to off them, and that increases suspense and makes action scenes very exciting.
I'd say go for one of the older characters, I think it leaves room for the newer dude to develop and dig into the story more.

Just my two cents


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## Conker (Nov 27, 2013)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> Killing a deeply integrated member tells the reader you're not afraid to off them, and that increases suspense and makes action scenes very exciting.
> I'd say go for one of the older characters, I think it leaves room for the newer dude to develop and dig into the story more.
> 
> Just my two cents


No. That's totally true. It's one of the things that makes the Song of Ice and Fire books so good. You never know who will die next and you god damned well know someone will.

George Arg Arg Martin said in a podcast interview that he feels really bad offing characters, even some of the ones who are really hated. He grows fond of them but the story demands what the story demands.

So we'll see. But fuck, I really like my trio of adventurers. It doesn't help that I just finished another R.A. Salvatore book, and that man doesn't like killing any of his heroes! They always survive (until [redacted])


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## Conker (Nov 27, 2013)

Joshkbosh said:


> Just don't kill off like family guy did with Brian


This character isn't my authorial stand in for political commentary, so that's not an issue.


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## Zeitzbach (Nov 27, 2013)

In a fantasy novel or something that involves a lot of people dying, *there is no way everyone in the main roster will survive* unless they are all op or something, like those characters in a japanese RPG where a team of 7-8 people is all it takes to save the world. 

Usually I would just come up with someone I really love, then go on to the story line and just mark "Yeah he dies here. No exception". If the killing becomes too hard, skip ahead and write the part where the character dies first before coming back to write the fillers. That's one way to force yourself to kill someone you don't want to.

Kill either the black one of the funny one first.

Then kill the one everyone comes to love. You know, those "I am your friend. I will protect you" and stuffs.

Like, one of the four team has a female knight who is like the strong  badass motherly figure to everyone, but I have to kill her just so that  her daughter can take her place later. Do I like her? Very. But this kind of death is required if I want everyone to grow stronger. Unless you're Kirito, saving everyone is out of the option.


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## Conker (Nov 27, 2013)

Zeitzbach said:


> In a fantasy novel or something that involves a lot of people dying, *there is no way everyone in the main roster will survive* unless they are all op or something, like those characters in a japanese RPG where a team of 7-8 people is all it takes to save the world.


Or your Drizzt and his friends 

But yeah, that's sort of the issue I'm stuck on.


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## Zeitzbach (Nov 27, 2013)

Just gotta mark it right there on the story line and force yourself to do it. If it breaks your heart, imagine the face on the readers.


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## Conker (Nov 27, 2013)

Zeitzbach said:


> Just gotta mark it right there on the story line and force yourself to do it. If it breaks your heart, imagine the face on the readers.


Aye. I suppose you're right. Got em off on a tangent right now, well not really. But I know when I had planned on doing the deed, and it makes even more sense now that I've had him accidentally foreshadow it. 

Sad indeed  But I think it needs to happen. Hell, it's maybe not believable if even the other two make it back alive given the shit they'll see during the book's climax.


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## Leo McDowd (Nov 27, 2013)

I come from the school of George R. R. Martin (Game of Thrones).

Kill whoever needs to be killed and shake the reader to their core. Be ruthless. If you kill off a character you personally like, that will help you flush out the characters that are tied to him/her. It's a risk, sure, but the payoff is amazing if you play your cards right. For example, if a beloved character is killed by the antagonist, the readers will cheer for the other protagonists to take revenge; once that revenge is successful, the reader will greatly appreciate you taking them to a rightful climax.


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## Conker (Nov 27, 2013)

You know, Harry Potter got away with having those three guys survive to the end. Sure, some others died, but they were pretty god damned periphery! 

I'll play it by ear I guess >.<


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## Zeitzbach (Nov 27, 2013)

Conker said:


> You know, Harry Potter got away with having those three guys survive to the end. Sure, some others died, but they were pretty god damned periphery!
> 
> I'll play it by ear I guess >.<



That's what you get for being Iconic.

Which brings up a point. Do you plan on making those chars an iconic figure? IF so, they must remain alive for at least 3 seasons.


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## Conker (Nov 28, 2013)

Zeitzbach said:


> That's what you get for being Iconic.
> 
> Which brings up a point. Do you plan on making those chars an iconic figure? IF so, they must remain alive for at least 3 seasons.


I don't plan on doing sequels to this book, no. I mean, the world I've got is big enough so if I wanted to, I could do more.

But it's already going to push like 500 pages which might be its own problem  So no to the sequels. 

I'm just going to have to commit to "the story will tell me what is and isn't right" and leave it there. Hell, the last like four pages I wrote were all just spur of the moment things that work really well and have moved my characters in a slightly different direction, so I'll just keep following those impulses.


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## M. LeRenard (Nov 29, 2013)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that including major character deaths in your story is only appropriate if the tone you set up beforehand merits it.  George R.R. Martin can get away with it because he writes gritty, semi-realistic fantasy war/political intrigue novels, so you expect him not to take shortcuts or invoke giant deus ex machinas to save his characters.  Sebastian the crab doesn't get brutally murdered in The Little Mermaid, because that would feel completely wrong and out of place given the tone of the rest of the story.  Right?
So do whatever you think is the most appropriate.  What you should never ever do is kill characters just to be shocking or edgy; something as major as that needs to have a solid foundation in the rest of the book (with very few exceptions, but most of us can't get away with it).


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## Conker (Nov 29, 2013)

M. LeRenard said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that including major character deaths in your story is only appropriate if the tone you set up beforehand merits it.  George R.R. Martin can get away with it because he writes gritty, semi-realistic fantasy war/political intrigue novels, so you expect him not to take shortcuts or invoke giant deus ex machinas to save his characters.  Sebastian the crab doesn't get brutally murdered in The Little Mermaid, because that would feel completely wrong and out of place given the tone of the rest of the story.  Right?
> So do whatever you think is the most appropriate.  What you should never ever do is kill characters just to be shocking or edgy; something as major as that needs to have a solid foundation in the rest of the book (with very few exceptions, but most of us can't get away with it).


That is true. 

The story started off more gritty and realistic in terms of everything--save the talking animal people--but I've introduced a bit more low brow fantasy elements to it as it's gone on. Got a bunch of zombie lizards running around because why not, and magic is starting to show up. That all feels appropriate, at least right now it does, but it also changes my general setting and tone. Tis why the first few chapters will need rewrites.

I've read tons of crazy fantasy adventure books. Love em. But there's always a point where I stop and go "how the hell have all of these heroes survived this shit? That's pretty silly!" so I'm also thinking in that guise. 

But in lighter fantasy novels, that really isn't a worry for most I'd imagine. I dunno. Talking to talk.


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## Leo McDowd (Nov 29, 2013)

M. LeRenard said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that including major character deaths in your story is only appropriate if the tone you set up beforehand merits it.  George R.R. Martin can get away with it because he writes gritty, semi-realistic fantasy war/political intrigue novels, so you expect him not to take shortcuts or invoke giant deus ex machinas to save his characters.  Sebastian the crab doesn't get brutally murdered in The Little Mermaid, because that would feel completely wrong and out of place given the tone of the rest of the story.  Right?
> So do whatever you think is the most appropriate.  What you should never ever do is kill characters just to be shocking or edgy; something as major as that needs to have a solid foundation in the rest of the book (with very few exceptions, but most of us can't get away with it).



Definitely. Tone matters. Can't just kill off characters willy-nilly, but it's important to take that risk when you, the author, personally feels it's a natural enough occurrence to commit to it in writing.


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## ArmorcladCoyote (Dec 1, 2013)

Conker said:


> This one character kinda just fell into the party, and I was like "cool, I can kill him later or something and that'll be that." But man, I really like this character. He's fun as hell to write, and he kinda brings the comedy when shit really starts to suck. Hell, he isn't really that developed! But I kinda want to develop him more. He's cool.
> 
> 
> I know it's one of those "do what the story demands" and right now it demands they all live, but since I'm trying to think a few steps ahead so I'm not completely fucking myself into a plot-hole ridden corner, I figure I do have some control.



Here are my two bits as a reader. 

From what you're saying it  sounds like you want to tell this character's story. Let him live and  grow on you.  Even some of the greats lose control of the story  sometimes. Samuel Vimes from Pratchett's Discworld series was originally suppose to just be  a sidecharacter with Carrot as the main hero. He went on to steal the spotlight and now he's one of Pratchett's favorites.

Also I don't care for killing a character just to show how realistic  your setting is. I personally find that a cheap overused trope. Be it  the matchstick girl,the soldier that carries his girlfriends picture on  him at all times, or the guy that has a nature so cheerful it's  infectious even in the miserable war camp, we all know they're dead  before the story ends. The only bets being placed are on how long until  that lamb is sent to the slaughter house. Surprise your reads. Let him make it through.



> But it still seems unrealistic for all of them to live.
> 
> 
> And I don't want anyone to die but that seems really unrealistic and might make me a total pussy.



As for escaping their predicament being "unrealistic," without knowing the specifics I can't say how unrealistic escaping would be but remember even reality isn't always realistic. Heroes bend probability. Lady luck is usually helps the heroes when life and death are on the line. But she makes up for it by screwing them over in just about every other situation. Note that I haven't said they have to get away unscathed. But they is plenty of things you can do to permanently damage them physically or psychologically. That may give you something more interesting to play with than death.



If you do decide to go through with the kill, make it his shining  moment. Have his death not be memorable because he died, make it  memorable because of what  he did just before.

A couple examples for have them go out on at their best is in Treat  Vector by Tom Clancy. An important side character gets killed off. (Name  withheld to reduce spoilage.) The character dies doing the best he can  to protect his friends from members of a Chinese hit team that are  trying to take over the building and had already killed the security  guards. Single handedly fights back against three of them and even  manages to kill one of the hit team before getting gunned down. And this  guy was a desk jockey at this point.


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## Conker (Dec 1, 2013)

Aye, you say many a good words sir!



> Also I don't care for killing a character just to show how realistic   your setting is. I personally find that a cheap overused trope. Be it   the matchstick girl,the soldier that carries his girlfriends picture on   him at all times, or the guy that has a nature so cheerful it's   infectious even in the miserable war camp, we all know they're dead   before the story ends. The only bets being placed are on how long until   that lamb is sent to the slaughter house. Surprise your reads. Let him  make it through.


This in particular. 

As of now, I still don't know what I'll truly do, but he will make it through this next arc. Had planned on killing him in the underground jungle, but he's said "going down there will get me killed" too much and I don't want him to be that self aware. Just lazy writing at that point.


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## Demensa (Dec 2, 2013)

Yeah, I agree in a sense, that 'the story will tell you what is right.' 
In the end, you know the story and the tone better than we do, so you'll have to think about the implications of a character death in regards to the plot, and if that would change the direction or further it in the way you want it to.

I'll also add that you want some level of realism, but you do want to 'bend probability' as Armorcladcoyote said.  If fantasy stories were realistic, or focused on ordinary people, they would likely be terribly short and dull. 
Fantasy stories are in their nature, very unrealistic. 
Deus ex machina can be used to make things interesting, but it's good to do so _sparingly_. Certainly _you shouldn't worry_ that no one important has died in your story.


ArmorcladCoyote said:


> But they is plenty of things you can do to permanently damage them physically or psychologically.


This is an excellent point.
Also sometimes emotional or psychological wounds can be greater than physical.

Just some thoughts.


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## Pimlico (Dec 2, 2013)

Everyone had some excellent suggestions/views. I'll just add that you should never create a character just to have it be killed. There's probably a name for this technique and some examples from pop culture work, but they escape me atm.

The story is the story. That's why it helps to have the plot down before starting.

Mine is a 9-book series with dozens of characters and everyone introduced in the first books pretty much ends up dead by the last chapter of the last book. With a series it's a bit easier to have your own personal fill of the characters you especially like and then have them meet their natural ends further down the line.


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## Kitsune Cross (Dec 2, 2013)

I like when characters dies, I don't I just like tragedy, like it's much more realistic


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## Conker (Dec 2, 2013)

Pimlico said:


> The story is the story. That's why it helps to have the plot down before starting.


That seems to be up in the air and differ between writers. Normally I'm an outline kind of guy, but this time I wanted to try the Stephen King approach and just go where the words take me. So far that's been way more fun, but also much more difficult. Continuity is a cruel motherfucker


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## Zeitzbach (Dec 2, 2013)

Pimlico said:


> I'll just add that you should never create a character just to have it be killed.



Ah crap
RIP Triste
A char that was created simply to die because it's a female Anthro.


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## ArmorcladCoyote (Dec 2, 2013)

Kitsune Cross said:


> I like when characters dies, I don't I just like tragedy, like it's much more realistic



More realistic isn't always better.



Spoiler: Example A


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## Dover (Dec 7, 2013)

Killing off characters is probably one of my favorite things to do. Its common to see a protagonist survive through the odds which, some times, can be through bullshit motives which can be unappealing. But if you want them to get through the odds together, all alive, maybe have an injury or something happen. Otherwise, sacrifice one of them in a heart string tugging way or something :U


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## Conker (Dec 7, 2013)

Dover said:


> Killing off characters is probably one of my favorite things to do. Its common to see a protagonist survive through the odds which, some times, can be through bullshit motives which can be unappealing. But if you want them to get through the odds together, all alive, maybe have an injury or something happen. Otherwise, sacrifice one of them in a heart string tugging way or something :U


As of now, I'm kinda tempted on keeping all of them alive but ruining at least one of them psychologically 

But I've some big battles that need to happen yet, and we'll see where spontaneity takes me.


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## Zeitzbach (Dec 8, 2013)

In most series where important characters get killed, it's getting really tiring and boring that *they always die after their dedicated arc is over*, and you just know that they're going to die.

Seems like the most heartbreaking way to kill a character now, is to give a false hint that they have an additional arc that they must live on to complete or something and bam! Maybe even add in a "Momento chapter" if he/she is intended to be a fan fav.


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## chesse20 (Dec 8, 2013)

Maybe have them killed by a necromancer who then turns them into a zombie and then later after you blow up the zombie or whatever their skeleton comes back and tells them he regained his memories .


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## Dover (Dec 8, 2013)

chesse20 said:


> Maybe have them killed by a necromancer who then turns them into a zombie and then later after you blow up the zombie or whatever their skeleton comes back and tells them he regained his memories .



you're getting fancy now


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## Hooky (Jan 5, 2014)

That guy who joined that you originally planned on killing off. Develop him more by getting him to betray the others for some reward or "higher purpose". Lose some of the characters to him and then kill him off with a bit of mercy, despite what he's done.


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## Conker (Jan 5, 2014)

All three will wind up surviving, though I killed off most of the cool secondary characters I introduced. 

Since my story slipped into High Fantasy, and since Boromir was the only member of the Fellowship that actually died, I figure it's not a real issue if all of them live. 

Plus, there are different ways to create moments of sadness than through character death.


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## Blekarotva (Jan 5, 2014)

Conker said:


> and since Boromir was the only member of the Fellowship that actually died, I figure it's not a real issue if all of them live.



I don't know why but this made me giggle.

I have problems keeping my characters alive - eventhough none of my stories are anywhere near completition, the first thing I think of a character once I create them is how/when/where I'm going to kill them B:
Keeping them alive and ruinng them psychologically later is realistic too, and it's rather interesting to do.


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## Conker (Jan 5, 2014)

Blekarotva said:


> I don't know why but this made me giggle.
> 
> I have problems keeping my characters alive - eventhough none of my stories are anywhere near completition, the first thing I think of a character once I create them is how/when/where I'm going to kill them B:
> Keeping them alive and ruinng them psychologically later is realistic too, and it's rather interesting to do.


I read a lot of heroic fantasy, and there's always this moment where I go, "how the fuck are any of these guys still alive? They've done nothing but get into unbalanced fights and have only suffered some scrapes and sprains. And then magic shows up to clear those away. The fuck?" But then I remember I"m having fun and stop caring.

I went into this thinking of that, the "how are all of these guys still alive?" even though my party is three and not five or nine. 

But in the end, I want a somewhat happy note, which is odd since I usually don't go for those. It won't be "everyone lived happily ever after" happy, but everyone will make it home safe and sound, though perhaps with a better perspective on the world.

Edit: Just want to say that this thread has been super valuable and helpful and thank you to all who have commented.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jan 6, 2014)

Kill 'em all.


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