# Fidgeting with Fluff Dragons



## dogryme6 (Aug 30, 2017)

Here's a question I've had for ages. If there were to be furry dragons, dragons with fur, fluff dragons if you will... How do they develop? Where do they come from, how do they come to be? Seems almost like almost all dragons are scalies, but I felt like I really wanted to differentiate from that and go with something I like. A furry dragon would feel nicer than scales, no matter what you did to make a scaly softer without changing their scales. Even if the creature itself wouldn't feel itself to be more or less comfortable depending on what the texture of it's skin is. I just want that to be a thing but...
It wouldn't make any sense for the development of normal dragons... Ugh help me out with this one


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## ellaerna (Aug 31, 2017)

Well, dragons are fictional creatures, so at the end of the day you could make up any bullshit you want and have that be okay. Heck, you don't even need to make up bullshit. Just put the fur on your dragon and call it a day.

But I'm not one to shy away from an interesting hypothetical, so let's dive in.

Now, if you just want fluffy and not necessarily furry, then you could do a light and fluffy down feather coat. Since dragons are similar to dinosaurs and dinosaurs are theorized to have been feathered, I feel like that could be a really easy evolutionary story.

But if you're set on fur...well, fur is a mammal thing so you'd have to figure out how mammal dragons coexist with reptile dragons. Though, thinking on it, "Dragon" is a super broad category. Sure, there are similar features throughout, but you have your more reptilian dragons from Western myth and then the Eastern dragons with lion snoots and hair with like Mohawks down their backs. Would they be considered reptiles? There's just too much variety across descriptions.

But this assumes too, that "Dragon" as a label is something of an Order or Family, like felines or canines, that falls under one Class. Perhaps instead, we need to break from the premade mold and make "draconis" it's own Phylum with many different Classes beneath it. Then you could easily have furry dragons, scalie dragons, feathery dragons, whatever you want! However, it's not a perfect solution. We have to ask what would make "Draconis" sufficiently different enough from say Phylum Chordata (vertebrates)? Dragons would typically be vertebrates, so... yeah.

So I guess "draconis" would work better as a Class that just so happens to overlap in certain respects with many other Classes. Which is still weird, but probably better than the Phylum idea. Either way, we need to define our terms and set out a list of physiological traits that make something draconis. Something that no other Class has. Once we can get that settled, then I think the rest should fall neatly into place, with the wide varieties of dragons branching out like so many Orders and Families.

And of course, we'd need a common ancestor to tie it all together. But we can deal with that later. We haven't even fully figured that shit out for humans, why should that be any different for dragons?


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## ellaerna (Aug 31, 2017)

Also, it's like midnight and I'm a little wine drunk, so I apologize for the rambling. I just really like theorizing about weird shit like this.


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## dogryme6 (Aug 31, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Well, dragons are fictional creatures, so at the end of the day you could make up any bullshit you want and have that be okay. Heck, you don't even need to make up bullshit. Just put the fur on your dragon and call it a day.
> 
> But I'm not one to shy away from an interesting hypothetical, so let's dive in.
> 
> ...



Yikes that's a lot. I suppose it could just exist for no reason... 
I'm not really looking for feathers, I want the fur. So I guess they're mammalian. Yeah, it is a really broad category, eastern dragons are blended with a lot of other creatures and that makes them hard to decipher. I wouldn't say reptile, probably hybrid or amalgamate.
That's a lot of sciency talk. I don't thing I could follow it too much. But thanks for the response.



ellaerna said:


> Also, it's like midnight and I'm a little wine drunk, so I apologize for the rambling. I just really like theorizing about weird shit like this.



Lol, you're excused.


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## ellaerna (Aug 31, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> Yikes that's a lot. I suppose it could just exist for no reason...
> I'm not really looking for feathers, I want the fur. So I guess they're mammalian. Yeah, it is a really broad category, eastern dragons are blended with a lot of other creatures and that makes them hard to decipher. I wouldn't say reptile, probably hybrid or amalgamate.
> That's a lot of sciency talk. I don't thing I could follow it too much. But thanks for the response.


I am a huge nerd, so sorry for nerding it up all over this question. It's just such an interesting question.

Like, I ended up googling a lot of shit. I looked up "dragons with fur" which led me to Vietnamese dragons and the problem with all dragons being seen as reptiles, then "dinosaurs with fur" just in case that led somewhere. It didn't, but it gave me the feather idea. Then I doubled checked if fur was just a mammal thing (it is), which led me down the animal classification route. And don't feel bad if you couldn't follow. I totally cheated and looked up animal classifications to make sure I wasn't talking nonsense.

I even got my roommate in on it and we both agree that dragon terminology is dreadfully lacking. Why couldn't people be more scientific with their myths? Honestly.


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## impendingsenseofdoom (Aug 31, 2017)

I was gonna mention dinosaurs possibly having feathers but you beat me to it XD 
On that same note, there were also proto-mammals during the Mesozoic era which looked like a cross between a lizard and a mammal. Apparently, some of these guys might have had fur 





While I don't think these guys look all that appealing, you could probably use it to justify dragons evolving to have fur while still retaining some of their reptilian features


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## dogryme6 (Aug 31, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> I am a huge nerd, so sorry for nerding it up all over this question. It's just such an interesting question.
> 
> Like, I ended up googling a lot of shit. I looked up "dragons with fur" which led me to Vietnamese dragons and the problem with all dragons being seen as reptiles, then "dinosaurs with fur" just in case that led somewhere. It didn't, but it gave me the feather idea. Then I doubled checked if fur was just a mammal thing (it is), which led me down the animal classification route. And don't feel bad if you couldn't follow. I totally cheated and looked up animal classifications to make sure I wasn't talking nonsense.
> 
> I even got my roommate in on it and we both agree that dragon terminology is dreadfully lacking. Why couldn't people be more scientific with their myths? Honestly.


You're fine. It is a kind of interesting question.
Kinda sucks that such a thing I'm looking for isn't really a thing. You'd think mythologies would be open for more possibilities, and technically they kind of are, but no one thinks outside the box...
Animal classifications, that's the overly sciency part. Feels almost like another language when I look at it. But yeah, dragon mythology could do with more detail.


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## dogryme6 (Aug 31, 2017)

impendingsenseofdoom said:


> I was gonna mention dinosaurs possibly having feathers but you beat me to it XD
> On that same note, there were also proto-mammals during the Mesozoic era which looked like a cross between a lizard and a mammal. Apparently, some of these guys might have had fur
> 
> 
> ...


Welp, sorry about someone else beating you to your thought.
Proto-mammals? *looks at pic* Uh... They're like... Lizard dogs. As cool as that is, I think they're a bit ugly looking and could use some more work. Personally I probably wouldn't use them in an argument...


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## ellaerna (Aug 31, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> Personally I probably wouldn't use them in an argument...


Question. Is someone trying to argue that you can't have a furry dragon? Like, is this something that you feel you actually have to make a case for?


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## dogryme6 (Aug 31, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Question. Is someone trying to argue that you can't have a furry dragon? Like, is this something that you feel you actually have to make a case for?


Kinda yeah, it happened once with a friend who felt dragons are fine as they are. While I was able to keep my choice, I don't think I proved that fur dragons can be a thing even if it's just fiction...


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 31, 2017)

You do realize dragons in fiction contain traits of mammals that is impossible for a reptile to have?

The way their body is built, mainly in the legs, is more similar to canids or felids. Fictional western dragons usually tend to be digitigrade, with four clawed toes on each foot. This is not the case with any reptile in reality, which are plantigrade and have five splayed toes on the back legs of varying long lengths, and five handlike toes of the forelegs. Most illustrations of dragons are very pawlike, which is nothing like how a reptile should be.

Not only that, but the shape of the muzzle tends to be very long, almost horselike. In nature, reptiles have short, broad mouths or long, v-shaped mouths such as the horny toad or anole. With alligators and crocodiles the muzzled are long and flat. In Dragon illustration, few imitate real reptile anatomy in shape and the classic Dragon has a more horselike muzzle.

Not to mention...wings! No scaly mammal has those batlike wings! The closest thing it comes down to are gliding reptiles, which have membranous flaps of skin on their midsection or between their toes to glide long distances. But as far as wings for flight go, the only creatures that possess such a trait are avians and chiropterans (bats, which are mammals).

If the anatomy of a dragon is going to be skewed in favor of more mammalian traits, why stop at scales over fur? It's already a mash of incapable hypothetical fantasy, fur on a dragon is no more realistic than it's general stature and build. It just isn't real.


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## GreenZone (Aug 31, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Well, dragons are fictional creatures, so at the end of the day you could make up any bullshit you want



pretty much the answer end thread


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## dogryme6 (Aug 31, 2017)

WolfNightV4X1 said:


> You do realize dragons in fiction contain traits of mammals that is impossible for a reptile to have?
> 
> The way their body is built, mainly in the legs, is more similar to canids or felids. Fictional western dragons usually tend to be digitigrade, with four clawed toes on each foot. This is not the case with any reptile in reality, which are plantigrade and have five splayed toes on the back legs of varying long lengths, and five handlike toes of the forelegs. Most illustrations of dragons are very pawlike, which is nothing like how a reptile should be.
> 
> ...


I suppose they aren't quite reptillian enough to be considered quite like other reptiles when you put it all like that... Well my dragons do have plantigrade legs, and I like to give them the cartoonish 4 fingers / toes per hand / foot. I like the longer noses on them too. Also yeah I saw the bat-like wings and I do like bats, but bats are kinda weak, fragile, sensitive to noise. I bet you could ghettoblast them outta town with a strong enough boombox.
I guess it does make sense and would work.


GreenZone said:


> pretty much the answer end thread


With answers like these I suppose.


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## ellaerna (Aug 31, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> Kinda yeah, it happened once with a friend who felt dragons are fine as they are. While I was able to keep my choice, I don't think I proved that fur dragons can be a thing even if it's just fiction...


Excuse my language, but fuck that person.

"While I was able to keep my choice..." Bah! They shouldn't be able to keep you from doing what you want with your own characters. Who do they think they are? The dragon police?

As has been said many times, many ways, dragons are fictional characters. While there might be something of a "template" for how they look, there are literally no rules. Just make up some bullshit, like this species of dragons had to evolve in a colder environment and thus developed fur coats. Or maybe they're dragons from a parallel universe where all dragons have fur instead of scales. Or they're actually aliens. Or maybe it's just this one furry dragon who has a genetic mutation that made him grow fur. Or, or maybe he was skinned alive and in order to survive he had to take the fur pelts of many animals and magic them into a new hide for himself.

Or you could just say "Fuck you, I don't have to justify my cuddly dragon to you, you fun ruiner."


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## dogryme6 (Aug 31, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Excuse my language, but fuck that person.
> 
> "While I was able to keep my choice..." Bah! They shouldn't be able to keep you from doing what you want with your own characters. Who do they think they are? The dragon police?
> 
> ...


He was definitely more a gamer than anything. He was looking at things from a more practical angle than creatively, and technically I asked him to give me character creation advice, but his reasoning and advice just sucked.
My current backstory for the fluffdragons is basically they live on a warm uncharted island somewhere out in the realms. They explore the realms around them to learn more about magic, technology and nature, leading them to the risky (and unofficially named) Dacutter Island where most of the main story takes place. Some live there to study closer...
Should I go into more detail with the fluff dragon island?


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## ellaerna (Aug 31, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> He was definitely more a gamer than anything. He was looking at things from a more practical angle than creatively, and technically I asked him to give me character creation advice, but his reasoning and advice just sucked.
> My current backstory for the fluffdragons is basically they live on a warm uncharted island somewhere out in the realms. They explore the realms around them to learn more about magic, technology and nature, leading them to the risky (and unofficially named) Dacutter Island where most of the main story takes place. Some live there to study closer...
> Should I go into more detail with the fluff dragon island?


Show him this thread. Show him how much of a clusterfuck it is trying to apply science and practicality to fictional beings that are amalgamations of many different species of all different types. Show him how much I think his "advice" sucks. Being a gamer, I bet dollars to donuts that he's accepted weirder things than furry dragons. 

Anyway, I think that's a fine back story. If they live in a warmer climate, you might watch how fluffy you make them. Heavy fur is a bitch in the heat. But if they do a lot of high flying for travel, they'd want a decent coat to keep them warm in high altitudes. 

If you want to go into more detail, go for it. I'm always happy to know more.


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## annethecatdetective (Aug 31, 2017)

A longhaired but not dense coat could work-- depending on how fluffed out the dragon is, it could provide insulation depending on weather, but also provide protection while flying, but not being dense and heavy would allow them to stay cool in a warmer climate. Or a smooth coat overall, but with fluff over vulnerable places or joints that might get stiff at high altitude.

I think a fluffy dragon sounds adorable, personally.


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Sep 1, 2017)

Allow me to show you the amazing existence of fluffdragons, pre-angeldragon era







www.furaffinity.net: Kalmor Ísvæng ref clean by Kalmor_Isvaeng


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## dogryme6 (Sep 1, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Show him this thread. Show him how much of a clusterfuck it is trying to apply science and practicality to fictional beings that are amalgamations of many different species of all different types. Show him how much I think his "advice" sucks. Being a gamer, I bet dollars to donuts that he's accepted weirder things than furry dragons.
> 
> Anyway, I think that's a fine back story. If they live in a warmer climate, you might watch how fluffy you make them. Heavy fur is a bitch in the heat. But if they do a lot of high flying for travel, they'd want a decent coat to keep them warm in high altitudes.
> 
> If you want to go into more detail, go for it. I'm always happy to know more.



Yeah, I feel like they're a shorthaired breed whose fur is light to medium weight at most. Fur weight depends whether they fly or not. (Medium if yes, light if no) Their environments are usually plains, cliffs, beaches, and small forests.
While they are omnivorous and like eating fruits, sheep and goats are common in their areas and they often try sneaking up to blend in, and then scattering them for other packs of fluff dragons to catch them. They know enough of technology to make better foods, but seem to prefer natural tastes.
For the most part they're friendly dragons that don't want to mess with anyone, and seem to like being together in small groups. Messing with one tends to be quite the mistake, as one high-pitched noise later and they'll be successful at calling together any nearby allies to protect them. But then there's the strong lone types (like dogry) who are beefy enough to hold their own in a small fight or brawl, but not quite comparable to the strength of beefier scaly dragons. All fluff dragons have the instinct to run away if they don't see a way to beat a hard enemy. (like scaly dragons.)
They're flexible, curious and kinda smart dragons that want to explore, learn, and understand the environments around them, at the drawback of having less combat expertise, stealthiness, and being weak to elements they don't excel at. (naturally are either ground or air type, depending on if flying or not, plus one element school of their choosing)  The ground ones often get stronger while the fliers are more in-tune with nature or magic. They're not exactly fast though, the only ones that can naturally zip around at high speeds are fliers that play chicken with the ground and win. They're usually pretty good at surviving in general.


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## dogryme6 (Sep 1, 2017)

WolfNightV4X1 said:


> Allow me to show you the amazing existence of fluffdragons, pre-angeldragon era
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Daww. Haku and Falkor. Alas, but they're... REALLY long.
My fluff dragons are more along the lines of western dragons if their scales were replaced with fur...


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## ellaerna (Sep 1, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> They're flexible, curious and kinda smart dragons that want to explore, learn, and understand the environments around them, at the drawback of having less combat expertise, stealthiness, and being weak to elements they don't excel at.


You might be careful with this idea. Heaving them be inclined towards the pursuit of knowledge and socially focused on exploration is fine, but those aren't mutually exclusive to the other things you listed. 

A smart, flexible dragon could very easily pick up combat expertise, perhaps focusing on their races other strengths if they are not naturally as strong as scale dragons. Stealth is also a learned skill, though if they're say brightly colored it would be difficult. 

You can still have these weaknesses, but keep in mind that unless there's something specific about them that would make them bad at a thing (like the color example above), most of these traits would be societally enforced. A single dragon or group of them could still be good at them


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## dogryme6 (Sep 1, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> You might be careful with this idea. Heaving them be inclined towards the pursuit of knowledge and socially focused on exploration is fine, but those aren't mutually exclusive to the other things you listed.
> 
> A smart, flexible dragon could very easily pick up combat expertise, perhaps focusing on their races other strengths if they are not naturally as strong as scale dragons. Stealth is also a learned skill, though if they're say brightly colored it would be difficult.
> 
> You can still have these weaknesses, but keep in mind that unless there's something specific about them that would make them bad at a thing (like the color example above), most of these traits would be societally enforced. A single dragon or group of them could still be good at them


I guess... I think what I meant to say was, a fluff dragon is better at sneaking on wild animals than they are at sneaking by intelligent life.
Hmm... It might be the more brightly colored flying dragons that aren't strong or stealthy...
I'm not really sure what other kind of weakness to give them.


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Sep 1, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> Daww. Haku and Falkor. Alas, but they're... REALLY long.
> My fluff dragons are more along the lines of western dragons if their scales were replaced with fur...



See Kalmor

I can't think of more Westernlike examples but I've seen them so I know they exist

The takeaway point here is all various dragons exist because people create them differently, shouldn't let anyone stifle your creativity on that


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## ellaerna (Sep 1, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> I guess... I think what I meant to say was, a fluff dragon is better at sneaking on wild animals than they are at sneaking by intelligent life.
> Hmm... It might be the more brightly colored flying dragons that aren't strong or stealthy...
> I'm not really sure what other kind of weakness to give them.


You can still have those weaknesses, but they'd be more "our culture is based around x trait" or "our society shuns y activity". A pacifist society would be weak in combat since its against their views, but there's nothing physically holding an intelligent species back from learning. 

That's what I'm getting at. Even though we like to pigeonhole species and groups into certain molds (all foxes are sex vixens, all wolves are strong loner types, etc) there's always going to be diversity in populations. There will be some inherent physical similarities, maybe a disposition here and there, but also similarities that we create as a society. 

We impose certain values, bond people by laws, follow common religions, teach our children particular jobs and trades. A seafaring society will prioritize boat building and as a whole could be said to be skilled at sailing, but that doesn't mean that those are inherent and inheritable traits. They're learned skills and not everyone will be good at it or even like it. 

It's fine to say that fluff dragons are bad at fighting or bad at sneaking or really anything, but it's important to consider if they're actually physically bad at it or if is just that those things run counter to their laws and priorities.


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## ellaerna (Sep 1, 2017)

Oh I forgot!
When I talked to me bf- also a huge nerd- about this, he mentioned that what we think of as reptile dragons would probably actually be warm blooded and thus mammals. They'd have to be in order to support their physiology. The scales could just be a weird thing, like the platypus. 
So yeah, dragons are mammals and having them have fur is not weird at all


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## dogryme6 (Sep 1, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> You can still have those weaknesses, but they'd be more "our culture is based around x trait" or "our society shuns y activity". A pacifist society would be weak in combat since its against their views, but there's nothing physically holding an intelligent species back from learning.
> 
> That's what I'm getting at. Even though we like to pigeonhole species and groups into certain molds (all foxes are sex vixens, all wolves are strong loner types, etc) there's always going to be diversity in populations. There will be some inherent physical similarities, maybe a disposition here and there, but also similarities that we create as a society.
> 
> ...



So, technically they're capable of anything... usually their standard limitation depends if they can fly or not. fliers can't beef, and ground ones can't fly. That's pretty simple.
They as a species are reluctant to fight, but will if they have to. They prefer to avoid it by either talking out of it or resourcefulness with the environment. They like doing smart things over warrior things.
If it's one thing they would be really weak to, it's fiery elements. They'll flee at first sight of fire getting out of control, though they hate any enemy that wields fire enough that they'll do anything to destroy them as fast as they can.


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## ellaerna (Sep 1, 2017)

dogryme6 said:


> So, technically they're capable of anything... usually their standard limitation depends if they can fly or not. fliers can't beef, and ground ones can't fly. That's pretty simple.
> They as a species are reluctant to fight, but will if they have to. They prefer to avoid it by either talking out of it or resourcefulness with the environment. They like doing smart things over warrior things.
> If it's one thing they would be really weak to, it's fiery elements. They'll flee at first sight of fire getting out of control, though they hate any enemy that wields fire enough that they'll do anything to destroy them as fast as they can.


That makes a lot of sense. Being furry, I imagine they'd have a worse time with it than their scaled cousins.


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## dogryme6 (Sep 1, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> That makes a lot of sense. Being furry, I imagine they'd have a worse time with it than their scaled cousins.


Yeah. There are the rare ones that learn how to use fire magic, but those are taught to have extreme control over it and are very loyal to fluff dragons. They're more reluctant to use it in a fight than they are to fight.


ellaerna said:


> Oh I forgot!
> When I talked to me bf- also a huge nerd- about this, he mentioned that what we think of as reptile dragons would probably actually be warm blooded and thus mammals. They'd have to be in order to support their physiology. The scales could just be a weird thing, like the platypus.
> So yeah, dragons are mammals and having them have fur is not weird at all


Oh, that's cool too, forgot to address that. In that case they'd probably keep themselves warm with it in cold places.


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