# Equal rights for artists and writers under the new AUP



## vendetta_leopard (Mar 18, 2009)

At the suggestion of others, I am re-posting this here rather than in the specific AUP discussion threads, so here goes again:



Dragoneer said:


> [--]
> *Generated Art, Renderers and Sprites*
> Submissions which are pre-generated or contain computer generated content (e.g. screenshots from games, web sites, etc.) are not permitted.



More specifically, the AUP contains this wording: "Screenshots of web pages, including Fur Affinity, as well as screenshots of desktops, programs, etc. may not be submitted."

Okay, so as a writer, I have recently run up against this part of the AUP, specifically the blanket ban on screenshots from applications, resulting in two of my submissions being deleted by admin.  Now, I've made my case in private, but the discussion was a non-starter, so I wanted to just put it out here for a public appraisal.

First of all I would like to state that as a writer, on a furry art site, I generally feel like a second class citizen, and some of that is natural.  However there are various ways in which FA doesn't make that any easier (and could), and even a few recent changes to the site which have made things even harder for this writer.  I can accept the status quo, but I am bothered each time I seem to be further disenfranchised.


So, on to the issue, and I apologise for being so late to the table.  I notice from time to time that artists on FA like to show off their drawing environment, maybe photos of their room, their art desk, their art stuff, or if we're being especially treated, we get to see a work in progress of a traditional art piece that has been posted on the site.  Blotch is quite a culprit for this, and it's always awesome seeing this kind of material.  I love to see the tools of the trade of an artist.

As a writer, I wanted to do something along similar lines, and because I don't just use a plain text editor, I figured it would be of extra interest.  I use a piece of software specifically designed for writing stories, books, novels, it's like an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) for text, letting you organise and store and track every element of your story.  I wanted to screenshot this application, showing a little teaser of my next unpublished chapter, and also showing how I've got all these other story elements squirreled away, including titles of deleted scenes, future ideas and plot elements, all visible on screen.    I wanted to show people how I write, how I organise stuff, I wanted to show people the tools of my trade.

This was made and uploaded about a year ago, and the reception was great, I generated a lot of interest, a lot of curiosity about how I work and what secrets lurked within my section headers.  But a couple of weeks ago, enforcing the new AUP rule I was unaware of, my submission was deleted, and it appears there's no debate about any other course of action.  I accept the rule is fairly clearly worded, there's no room for interpretation, what I submitted is against the new AUP.  

But what I'd like to ask publicly is, is it fair?  Is it fair that artists are able to show the tools of their trade, but as a writer, I cannot?  How am I supposed to show my working environment to my curious fans?  Can I just photograph my PC running the app?  Or would only photographing a typewriter count?  I don't think I'm asking for anything unreasonable here, just to be allowed the same type of creative outlet as artists are.  What do people think?


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## Xaerun (Mar 18, 2009)

There _are_ equal rights for artists and writers, at least in terms of this issue.

Photos of the desk at which you work are wholly different to screenshots of Photoshop.
In the same way, photos of where you write, with your materials on it are wholly different to screenshots of your software.

Artists cannot (or at least should not) post screenshots of Photoshop with WIPs on it ("screenshots of desktops, _programs_, etc. may not be submitted", as you yourself posted) and so this holds firm across the board.

Oh, and posting WIPs does not require a screenshot. That excuse will not get you around the ban on screenshots. You may just upload the document in a regular format, labelled WIP (and you'll note artists do just that).

Whilst that map of concept ideas and such sounds brilliant, there are other ways you could do it.
If you'd like, just get around it by making a journal and link to it, or in one of your submissions' descriptions say something similar to "this is how I do it" and link to an image uploaded elsewhere. That's legitimate, at least from what I understand.

That could tide you/your watchers over until this is addressed further.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 18, 2009)

Xaerun said:


> There _are_ equal rights for artists and writers, at least in terms of this issue.
> 
> Photos of the desk at which you work are wholly different to screenshots of Photoshop.
> In the same way, photos of where you write, with your materials on it are wholly different to screenshots of your software.
> ...



Yet if you use the new search feature to look for 'screenshots', you get page after page of Photoshop screenshots, I wonder if the admin are working through deleting every one of these?  Thing is though, you say the artist and writer rights are equal on this issue, and yet artists at least have the choice of traditional hand drawn stuff that can be shown in photograph, or fully digital artwork that can only be captured in progress by screencapturing photoshop.  All I have is my on screen environment and my keyboard. And I'd be happy photographing my desk, including my monitor, showing my writing environment, but I wonder if that would count as rule evasion, if the contents of the screen were legible.  



> If you'd like, just get around it by making a journal and link to it, or in one of your submissions' descriptions say something similar to "this is how I do it" and  link to an image uploaded elsewhere. That's legitimate, at least from what I understand.



Mmm, it's an idea, thanks!


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## Xaerun (Mar 18, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> Yet if you use the new search feature to look for 'screenshots', you get page after page of Photoshop screenshots, I wonder if the admin are working through deleting every one of these?  Thing is though, you say the artist and writer rights are equal on this issue, and yet artists at least have the choice of traditional hand drawn stuff that can be shown in photograph, or fully digital artwork that can only be captured in progress by screencapturing photoshop.  All I have is my on screen environment and my keyboard. And I'd be happy photographing my desk, including my monitor, showing my writing environment, but I wonder if that would count as rule evasion, if the contents of the screen were legible.


Unfortunately there's not much we can do about that. Yes, they should be removed. I'm sure you're aware there's quite a bit going on right now, and the sheer number of people breaking the rules is likely incredibly high. Most you can do is open a Trouble Ticket if it bothers you, and hope an admin gets back to you.

Oh, and fully digital artwork can be captured in progress by saving the usual way. It's not hard.

As to whether the screen being legible counts as an AUP evasion, I can't really comment, you'll need a mod's word on that one. However, I would be inclined to say "not reaaaaally".




vendetta_leopard said:


> Mmm, it's an idea, thanks!


Happy to help however I can.

*EDIT* Whilst it may be nitpicking, this should probably be in the AUP board.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 18, 2009)

Xaerun said:


> Unfortunately there's not much we can do about that. Yes, they should be removed. I'm sure you're aware there's quite a bit going on right now, and the sheer number of people breaking the rules is likely incredibly high. Most you can do is open a Trouble Ticket if it bothers you, and hope an admin gets back to you.
> 
> Oh, and fully digital artwork can be captured in progress by saving the usual way. It's not hard.


It's not so much about seeing the work in progress, it's seeing the surrounding tools as well, seeing how it's all plugged together, it's not always possible to convey that without saving the screenshot of the whole app.  And there being photoshop screenshots on the site only bothers me, if my submission gets deleted but theirs doesn't, or takes a really really long time to.  I'd rather neither were deleted.



> *EDIT* Whilst it may be nitpicking, this should probably be in the AUP board.




I posted it in the AUP board and was told off by several people, so I re-posted it here instead.


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## TakeWalker (Mar 18, 2009)

You posted it in an existing AUP _thread_, where it was off topic. There's a difference.

The FA writer base as a whole also has enough of a persecution complex without you bawwing about discrimination and "rights". Get out and find/create another website that caters more to writers if this place isn't to your liking.

As to the matter at hand, if you want to post WIPs, then just -- and I can't put this any nicer -- _post the fucking text file_. There's no reason at all that you need some fancy bells and whistles for writing a goddamn story. I'm not going to argue the merits of posting screencaps of WIP visual art. What you are complaining about is a non-issue, because there's a very simple workaround: see italics, above.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

TakeWalker said:


> You posted it in an existing AUP _thread_, where it was off topic. There's a difference.
> 
> The FA writer base as a whole also has enough of a persecution complex without you bawwing about discrimination and "rights". Get out and find/create another website that caters more to writers if this place isn't to your liking.



Thank you for your well reasoned, 4chan lingo peppered argument there.



> As to the matter at hand, if you want to post WIPs, then just -- and I can't put this any nicer -- _post the fucking text file_. There's no reason at all that you need some fancy bells and whistles for writing a goddamn story. I'm not going to argue the merits of posting screencaps of WIP visual art. What you are complaining about is a non-issue, because there's a very simple workaround: see italics, above.



As I've explained, posting a literal work in progress is not at all what my aim was, it's about showing people the tools of my trade.  And the fact you don't even think I need 'some fancy bells and whistles' for writing a story, shows how little you know about the subject, a fact my screenshot might have gone some way towards correcting.


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## Johndrell Wolf (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't have much to add to this as I am not a writer.  But you are correct in that FA needs to caters to its amazing collection of writers.  If this is supposed to be a community center for all works of art in the furry fandom. Why is one type of art elevated above another?  Lets hope that changes for the better occur.


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## WarMocK (Mar 19, 2009)

An interesting case. I must say. 
First of all, however, I'd like to point out that the AUP about "generated" art was supposed to be modified, don't know why Dragoneer hasn't done it yet. You actually _may_ post screenshots if they show something YOU generated *from scratch*. We already discussed that topic a long time ago, and we concluded that in this case the game can be treated as a renderer, which means that the rules for renderers apply. The ban of screenshots was put in place to stop people spamming FA with screenshots from WoW and Co. ;-)
As for your specific problem, I'd like to know if the pic showed a story you were working on, and if yes: did you point that out in your comments about the pic? If you didn't, the admins probably thought that you just wanted to show a program you didn't create yourself, which would violate the AUP.


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## Stratelier (Mar 19, 2009)

This topic is brought up specifically because vendetta_leopard has seen actual submissions removed by admin after being ruled as (essentially) insufficient user-created content.

Would an FA staff member like to fill in the blanks?  Let's keep speculation to a minimum and go for the facts.

This is another reason FA needs soft-delete: if a submission was removed by accident (or for reasons that are later debunked), there is no 'undo' button or means to reverse that action.


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## Panzermanathod (Mar 19, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> This is another reason FA needs soft-delete: if a submission was removed by accident (or for reasons that are later debunked), there is no 'undo' button or means to reverse that action.



It seems that if this was implemented in the future there would be complaints at having to delete pictures twice to finally delete them.

Unless you mean a "Do you really want to delete" Page. I don't know... I haven't had to delete pictures.


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## Adrimor (Mar 19, 2009)

TakeWalker said:


> You posted it in an existing AUP _thread_, where it was off topic. There's a difference.
> 
> The FA writer base as a whole also has enough of a persecution complex without you bawwing about discrimination and "rights". Get out and find/create another website that caters more to writers if this place isn't to your liking.
> 
> As to the matter at hand, if you want to post WIPs, then just -- and I can't put this any nicer -- _post the fucking text file_. There's no reason at all that you need some fancy bells and whistles for writing a goddamn story. I'm not going to argue the merits of posting screencaps of WIP visual art. What you are complaining about is a non-issue, because there's a very simple workaround: see italics, above.


I tried telling him to do the same thing. I suspect that he either thinks he's privileged or feels he's such an amazing writer that he shouldn't have to abide by the AUP.

Either way, OP, stop trying to play the victim card. Petulant writers like you make the rest of us look bad. The terms of the AUP are not meant to allow you to plug whatever "Writer's IDE" you use any more than they're meant to let me post screencaps of Audacity made while recording some song or other.

EDIT: Just read this little gem.


vendetta_leopard said:


> the fact you don't even think I need 'some fancy bells and whistles' for writing a story, shows how little you know about the subject, a fact my screenshot might have gone some way towards correcting.


Hey, guess what?
I'm a writer--but *I* don't need an IDE to write anything.
Moreover, I'm quite certain *most* writers on FA don't use or need this miracle-app you so desperately want to post screenshots of.
Go worship.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 19, 2009)

O/T but some of you should apply for forum mods, you give enough advice as is 

But yes, soft delete has been discussed and I believe has been worked upon, but I'm not sure if it was for this version or the next.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> An interesting case. I must say.
> First of all, however, I'd like to point out that the AUP about "generated" art was supposed to be modified, don't know why Dragoneer hasn't done it yet. You actually _may_ post screenshots if they show something YOU generated *from scratch*. We already discussed that topic a long time ago, and we concluded that in this case the game can be treated as a renderer, which means that the rules for renderers apply. The ban of screenshots was put in place to stop people spamming FA with screenshots from WoW and Co. ;-)
> As for your specific problem, I'd like to know if the pic showed a story you were working on, and if yes: did you point that out in your comments about the pic? If you didn't, the admins probably thought that you just wanted to show a program you didn't create yourself, which would violate the AUP.



The picture did show a story I was working on, I pointed this out very clearly in the comments, but showing a sneak peak of the story was not the purpose of the picture.  To nail this down a bit, here are the kind of concepts and information the screenshot of my 'writing IDE' conveys:


Total amount of time spent editing the story in hours
Total number of characters/words/pages in the whole story/current document
The ability to apply version control to your text, say you want to cut a big chunk of text out of a chapter but may change your mind later, it's all saved in version control.
The sectioning of my story out into chapter, character, place, element, idea documents.  Each chapter is kept in its own separate document in the workspace.  Want to write a bio of a character?  Write it up and toss it in the characters area.  Got a story element, a paragraph or more of text you decided to pull permanently out of a chapter, or maybe are planning it for the future?  Toss it in the elements folder.
In part of my screenshot I show the elements folder, which reveals the titles of some of my 'deleted scenes' or upcoming ideas to toss into the story at some point.

I've been accused of simply trying to pimp a piece of software, but that's not true, this software is pretty specialist and only available on the Mac and I'm not expecting anyone to go out and buy it.  I'm just interested in showing people my story, my current work, in the scope of the entire project, which this software happens to allow.  It's the tools of my trade, but any similarly useful tool would do.  I'm conveying a whole bunch of information and concepts which people found pretty interesting, and gives some insight into how I put stuff together as a writer, how I work, should people want to know.  Just as I find screenshots of Blotch doing her thing, pretty damn amazing.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> I tried telling him to do the same thing. I suspect that he either thinks he's privileged or feels he's such an amazing writer that he shouldn't have to abide by the AUP.



If you'll read in this thread, I clarify a few times that posting a work in progress is not my aim here.  If I thought I didn't have to abide by the AUP, I would have re-posted the deleted submission and relied on the fact admin would probably take years to notice it again.  And if wanting the same rights as an artist on here is thinking I'm privileged, then so be it.



> Either way, OP, stop trying to play the victim card. Petulant writers like you make the rest of us look bad. The terms of the AUP are not meant to allow you to plug whatever "Writer's IDE" you use any more than they're meant to let me post screencaps of Audacity made while recording some song or other.



I've been on FA over 2 years, in all that time I have never publicly complained about anything, I've just got on with the creative process.  But this is the straw that broke the camel's back, and if I'm playing the victim card, it's because its true.  I was willing to put up with it till now, but no more, I've come here to have my say.  The terms of the AUP are meant to prevent abuse, and it's clear to see how and why they've limited that abuse, but I feel like I've been caught in the crossfire here.  There were exceptions made for the screenshot ban, and it seems reasonable to add one more in the name of fairness.  I want the same rights as artists, and if I'm petulant, it's because I've had enough of getting less and less as time goes on.




> Hey, guess what?
> I'm a writer--but *I* don't need an IDE to write anything.
> Moreover, I'm quite certain *most* writers on FA don't use or need this miracle-app you so desperately want to post screenshots of.



That's fine if you choose not to use such tools, but I do, and I wanted to use them to illustrate my story on a project level to my readers.  Why so hostile?


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## TakeWalker (Mar 19, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> Hey, guess what?
> I'm a writer--but *I* don't need an IDE to write anything.
> Moreover, I'm quite certain *most* writers on FA don't use or need this miracle-app you so desperately want to post screenshots of.
> Go worship.



Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and agree with this one. Call me old-fashioned.

FA isn't meant for showing off the "tools of your trade". If anything, you can do that by posting your finished work. "Hey look, this program helps me write stories!" Well yeah, so does Notepad.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

TakeWalker said:


> Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and agree with this one. Call me old-fashioned.
> 
> FA isn't meant for showing off the "tools of your trade". If anything, you can do that by posting your finished work. "Hey look, this program helps me write stories!" Well yeah, so does Notepad.



And yet artists can and do post exactly these things, without prejudice.  And saying simply notepad helps you write stories is as helpful as an artist uploading a photograph of a pencil.  It's not about showing off the software I'm using anyway, it's about using the software to give people a project overview of my story and my writing process.  Notepad wouldn't achieve that any more than uploading a text file would.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2009)

As a person the very rare few who reads Stories on FA...I dont give a damn about what you use to write the stories -.-


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

Desume Crysis Kaiser said:


> As a person the very rare few who reads Stories on FA...I dont give a damn about what you use to write the stories -.-



Then you shouldn't care when I post my screenshot in scraps and you never have to see it


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## WarMocK (Mar 19, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> And yet artists can and do post exactly these things, without prejudice.  And saying simply notepad helps you write stories is as helpful as an artist uploading a photograph of a pencil.


Well actually, this would violate the AUP as well since you might miss that the focus is on the WIP, and not the software you use. ;-)


vendetta_leopard said:


> It's not about showing off the software I'm using anyway, it's about using the software to give people a project overview of my story and my writing process.  Notepad wouldn't achieve that any more than uploading a text file would.


In other words: a classic HOW-TO. ^_~
A little suggestion from my point:
How about writing a short how-to, include screenshots showing what you are doing with your tool of choice, and post it as a PDF?
I don't know what kind of word processor you use (MS Office or OpenOffice), but as far as OpenOffice goes I can tell you that you can export your documents as PDFs natively (dunno about MS Office, I haven't used it for years).


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> [--]
> In other words: a classic HOW-TO. ^_~
> A little suggestion from my point:
> How about writing a short how-to, include screenshots showing what you are doing with your tool of choice, and post it as a PDF?
> I don't know what kind of word processor you use (MS Office or OpenOffice), but as far as OpenOffice goes I can tell you that you can export your documents as PDFs natively (dunno about MS Office, I haven't used it for years).



It is an interesting idea, but would that PDF not fall under the same AUP restriction, as it contains screenshots?


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## WarMocK (Mar 19, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> It is an interesting idea, but would that PDF not fall under the same AUP restriction, as it contains screenshots?


[x] Text describing what you do is generated BY you
[x] Layout of the PDF is generated BY you
[x] Screenshots partially show content generated BY you

That would be enough content generated by you to make it legal imho. Maybe Arshes, Dragoneer, or someone else from the staff could say if that's enough (I definitely would consider that a SIGNIFICANT part of user-generated content ;-)).


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## krisCrash (Mar 19, 2009)

If the focus of the image is text generated by you I can't really see why it fails the AUP, though I do agree that a lot of interface is annoying - the same goes for photoshop screenshots. But since these were in your scraps I don't understand it at all.


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## Adrimor (Mar 19, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> If you'll read in this thread, I clarify a few times that posting a work in progress is not my aim here.  If I thought I didn't have to abide by the AUP, I would have re-posted the deleted submission and relied on the fact admin would probably take years to notice it again.  And if wanting the same rights as an artist on here is thinking I'm privileged, then so be it.


Here's the difference, though:
*(1) Visual art is easily and quickly recognized as such.* Even a rough blocking-in is pretty easy to recognize as a drawing-in-progress. _Conversely,_ it takes a quick read of the text
*(2) Visual artists aren't allowed to show off their tools either.* Give me one instance of an artist posting a screencap of some image program that didn't have anything drawn on it. I guarantee you won't have much luck there--_because they post such things as WIPs, not as "demonstrations."_
*(3) Writing is different from visual art.* In visual art, technique is integral to how the final piece turns out--there is _intrinsically_ some merit in seeing how an artist creates an image or sculpture. In writing, however, the only thing that ultimately matters is the final piece. I highly doubt anybody cares _how_ you plan out your stories




> I've been on FA over 2 years, in all that time I have never publicly complained about anything, I've just got on with the creative process.  But this is the straw that broke the camel's back, and if I'm playing the victim card, it's because its true.


You poor thing.
Hey, cue the violins.



> I was willing to put up with it till now, but no more, I've come here to have my say.  The terms of the AUP are meant to prevent abuse, and it's clear to see how and why they've limited that abuse, but I feel like I've been caught in the crossfire here.  There were exceptions made for the screenshot ban, and it seems reasonable to add one more in the name of fairness.  I want the same rights as artists, and if I'm petulant, it's because I've had enough of getting less and less as time goes on.


*Translation:* People don't watch me as much as I'd like. It must be the AUP's fault!! DISCRIMINATION!!!



> That's fine if you choose not to use such tools, but I do, and I wanted to use them to illustrate my story on a project level to my readers.  Why so hostile?


For the same reason I'm hostile toward Bible-thumpers and knee-jerk feminists. Honestly, if FA's admins really wanted to deny you "equal rights", don't you think they'd have banned your whiny ass by now?

And for what it's worth, I've accidentally run afoul of the AUP a couple times myself--but you don't hear me bitching about discrimination, now do you?

Actually, that seems like a pretty good idea to me. Anyone care to start a petition?

Meanwhile, if you don't like the AUP, there's the logout button. Try not to let the banhammer hit you on your way out.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 19, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> [--]
> *Translation:* People don't watch me as much as I'd like. It must be the AUP's fault!! DISCRIMINATION!!!



If that's honestly what you think, combined with your 4chan words you edited out, I see no reason to continue this discourse with you, you've added nothing.  There's no need to act the way you do, others here are capable of making constructive remarks.


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## Adrimor (Mar 19, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> If that's honestly what you think, combined with your 4chan words you edited out,


They are not *my* 4chan words. I am neither the creator nor the sole visitor of 4chan. 4chan is a public forum; ergo, they belong to *everybody.*

Though it's not like "bawwww" and the like aren't used elsewhere by now.



> I see no reason to continue this discourse with you,


There's no reason for you to continue this discourse at all. You're wrong, the admins don't give a flying fuck about your whining, and *nobody cares about your crutch-program.*



> you've added nothing. There's no need to act the way you do, others here are capable of making constructive remarks.


I've made reasonable suggestions during your previous pity-party. You ignored those, choosing to respond only to the minor barbs I threw at you; and your only response to them--just like your reply to any of the other suggestions here that weren't what you wanted to hear--was to complain that we're either not understanding you, or that we're 100% right about you whining, but it's only because the mean old AUP is trying to keep you down and you won't stand for it anymore.

Honestly, what could be a more constructive suggestion than "grow up"?


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## TakeWalker (Mar 19, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> And yet artists can and do post exactly these things, without prejudice.  And saying simply notepad helps you write stories is as helpful as an artist uploading a photograph of a pencil.  It's not about showing off the software I'm using anyway, it's about using the software to give people a project overview of my story and my writing process.  Notepad wouldn't achieve that any more than uploading a text file would.



I'm of the mind that you're completely blinded by this little quest of yours. I have no idea what you mean by this. All I know is that you're not crusading for "equal rights for...artists", but equal "rights" for _yourself_.

Also, good job ignoring people because they use "4chan words". You're a real magnanimous and learnÃ©d individual whose every word should be weighed with great import.

LRN2INTERNET N00B


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## Stratelier (Mar 19, 2009)

Panzermanathod said:


> It seems that if this was implemented in the future there would be complaints at having to delete pictures twice to finally delete them.


Not really.  I mean that when a submission is 'deleted', it is not actually purged from the database at the same time, it just sets a 'deleted' (or equivalent) flag on the submission, and the submission gets excluded from all usual Browse queries.  The submission still exists in the database for administrative review (only FA staff would have any access to such pieces) and FA admins can 'un-delete' it if necessary; otherwise, the submission is physically purged from the database after a set time frame (e.g. 7 days?) since deletion.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 20, 2009)

TakeWalker said:


> Also, good job ignoring people because they use "4chan words". You're a real magnanimous and learnÃ©d individual whose every word should be weighed with great import.



I'm ignoring people who are rude, hostile and have nothing constructive to add to this discussion.  There's simply no call for it, but of course on a forum it's easy to just blast people and not care less about it.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 20, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> Not really.  I mean that when a submission is 'deleted', it is not actually purged from the database at the same time, it just sets a 'deleted' (or equivalent) flag on the submission, and the submission gets excluded from all usual Browse queries.  The submission still exists in the database for administrative review (only FA staff would have any access to such pieces) and FA admins can 'un-delete' it if necessary; otherwise, the submission is physically purged from the database after a set time frame (e.g. 7 days?) since deletion.



That would be a nice feature, although I would set the time frame longer, as it's taken a few weeks already to chase this issue.  I had hoped the admin would be able to 'undelete' my submission together with all the user comments I wished to preserve, once this was all straightened out.


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## Nanakisan (Mar 20, 2009)

As with screen shots and the like there is still the heavy debate over Fractals but now the admins have been trained to identify the pre-generated stuff over the made from scratch renders. this debate was no different then what yours is. its simple mostly. being a writer you could still apply something of a art to your snapshot like a cleverly made watermark or perhaps a cute character as long as it looks original. Mostly Neer cleared stuff up in his last journal a few days ago stating that screen shots of the site or other mediea that do not follow FA's AUP will be deleted on sight unless they follow the includes user made content a example of this would be a simple drawing.

but as a writer i can understand where your coming from. I to am a writer of sorts but mostly i'm focused more on 3D modeling now. You know if you would like i could design you a special water mark image you can use for your screens seeing that if i made it for you it would be considered a part of the for you by you.


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## Xaerun (Mar 20, 2009)

Calm down, y'all. No need to get so riled up.

Vendetta, I don't think a soft-delete would fix your issue. If an admin removed your submission, I don't think they would soft-delete it; they would completely erase it from the system with no possibility of recall. After all, if it's an AUP violation there's no need for it to come back.
That being so, it's still a nice idea, although not exactly critically needed. I mean, if you're not sure you want to delete a submission, move it to scraps, or leave it as it is until you've made up your mind. If you do delete it and later change your mind, re-upload it; user comments a submission do not make. Or something like that.

Strata: I'd go for a month if a timeframe was set. Admins have much to do, and it's quite possible they won't get to your submission within a week.


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## Adrimor (Mar 20, 2009)

Xaerun said:


> Calm down, y'all. No need to get so riled up.


There's plenty of need. People who scream "discrimination!!" without cause need to be punished by those who actually know what they're talking about.

We're just doing our furry duty =)


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## Xaerun (Mar 20, 2009)

I was under the impression the furry duty was to scream "discrimination!" without cause.

At any rate, the criticism of his argument/suggestion could be delivered in a more appropriate manner.


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## Adrimor (Mar 20, 2009)

Xaerun said:


> I was under the impression the furry duty was to scream "discrimination!" without cause.


Meh, perhaps.
I'm a human anyway >=P



> At any rate, the criticism of his argument/suggestion could be delivered in a more appropriate manner.


But it doesn't matter if we're polite or not--he ignores any post that doesn't say he's right.


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## Stratelier (Mar 20, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> That would be a nice feature, although I would set the time frame longer, as it's taken a few weeks already to chase this issue.  I had hoped the admin would be able to 'undelete' my submission together with all the user comments I wished to preserve, once this was all straightened out.


I would be a nice feature because if the subject comes up for questioning or inquiry by a normal user, a staff member or admin would be able to at least review the specific removals and explain the reasons for what happened.  However, *that being said*, things that get deleted tend to stay that way (unless there is some proven, strong reason for undeletion), so as Xaerun said, it probably would not help your personal situation much if any.

It's mostly just for some transparency with regards to removals.

As for the regular topic in general . . . personally, I don't take screenshots of my WIPs in the first place.  Either in visual or written form.  If I upload a WIP, I upload it in the same way as I would do the final work (direct image or text file).

So I have no personal stake in this matter, I can be impartial.  Yay.


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## Rapscallion (Mar 21, 2009)

I honestly don't see what the problem is, or why it's worth making a thread over. Or how this takes away any 'equal rights' between artists and writers.

You don't need to post a screenshot of what you're doing to. It's not that difficult to save your writing under a .rtf format and upload it. :| Given the image size limits, uploading a screenshot of text defeats the purpose of being easily readable, especially if it's something very long and drawn out that you've put a lot of thought into.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like you're honestly making a big deal over absolutely nothing.


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## Johndrell Wolf (Mar 22, 2009)

Vendetta.  I found the image and description very useful.  I don't see how these people are arguing with you on something that your fans find actually useful.  I am not a writer as can be gathered from this reply.  But I do enjoy seeing the process and potential works you are creating.  The image, to me at least, is showing the process of your work, even though it could be in violation.  I think it would make perfect sense to have it allowed on FA as it is showing you creating your art.  just as an image that an artist did that was just the lined artwork before coloring shows the process they go through.  This shows your process and devotion to your craft and fans.  I hope that FA will start to treat you fairly.  And to everyone who will say something like "I am sucking up."  or even accuse me of something worse.  I am a fan of this fine writer and wish that more writers would post views of their works in progress with general information included.
To Vendetta.  Please if this causes you to go to a different service for hosting,   tell those of us who care, where you are going to.


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## Xaerun (Mar 22, 2009)

Johndrell Wolf said:


> I found the image and description very useful.  I don't see how these people are arguing with you on something that your fans find actually useful.


 Whilst you may have found it useful, the AUP states (as Vendetta quotes) that "screenshots of desktops, programs etc. may not be submitted." Please read other posts in the topic before posting, you might find it useful.



Johndrell Wolf said:


> I think it would make perfect sense to have it allowed on FA as it is showing you creating your art.  *just as an image that an artist did that was just the lined artwork before coloring shows the process they go through.*  This shows your process and devotion to your craft and fans.


That is not the issue.
An artist showing the lined artwork before colouring is showing a WIP. That's fine, a writer can show WIPs too, by uploading the WIP in a .txt or .rtf format. The issue is "showing his tools of the trade", which is violating the AUP, more specifically the screenshot of the "IDE".


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## krisCrash (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm finding this increasingly hard to discuss without an example of the image in question :/


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## Adrimor (Mar 22, 2009)

Johndrell Wolf said:


> Vendetta.  I found the image and description very useful.  I don't see how these people are arguing with you on something that your fans find actually useful.


 Something's fishy about this... The guy makes an account specifically to post in this thread, does so TWICE, and 100% agrees with the OP's suggestion of "screw the AUP, I have writings"? Smells like an alt. Anyone care to investigate further?  





> To Vendetta.  Please if this causes you to go to a different service for hosting, tell those of us who care, where you are going to.


 FA's not a hosting service for whatever you want--another point that both posters seem unable to realize. If you want webhosting, there are plenty of real services for it--there's no reason you should try to use FA for it.


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## Stratelier (Mar 22, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> Something's fishy about this... The guy makes an account specifically to post in this thread, does so TWICE, and 100% agrees with the OP's suggestion of "screw the AUP, I have writings"?


His postings in the previous thread were suggested as off-topic by a few members.

Now it is true you see users occasionally posting WIP screenshots of not just the actual work but the IDE at the same time (be it Photoshop, GIMP, or so on).  Is there an FA staff member who can fill us in on whether these things get reported/deleted or not?


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## Adrimor (Mar 22, 2009)

^ I'm referring to Johndrell Wolf, not Vendetta Leopard.

Though I still suspect the former is an alt.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 23, 2009)

I just want to thank everyone who made constructive comments in this thread, I really value your input.  Nanakisan, I think I like your idea best and may contact you in the future, if I don't design something like that myself, I appreciate it .  The discussion is now moot, as I've gone a different route for now, and hand drawn my entire screenshot with pen and paper, thus turning it into furry art.  Crazy but creative, it was actually kinda fun!

And LOL, people think I'd stoop to the level of making a dupe account to praise myself up with?  That's pretty funny 

(oh if you still want to see the original image krisCrash, PM me  )


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 23, 2009)

AdriNoMa said:


> ^ I'm referring to Johndrell Wolf, not Vendetta Leopard.
> 
> Though I still suspect the former is an alt.



Unless he's in Portland Oregon and the UK at the same time, I think not.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 23, 2009)

Are you trying to show a tutorial of the software of how it can be useful as a writer? That's fine. 

If you're just doing it as a teaser with a "cleverly disguised" WIP I don't see how this makes any sense?


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 24, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> Are you trying to show a tutorial of the software of how it can be useful as a writer? That's fine.
> 
> If you're just doing it as a teaser with a "cleverly disguised" WIP I don't see how this makes any sense?



In a sense I'm doing the former, I don't think of it as a tutorial as such, but I definitely feel it shows people how useful this kind of software is to me as a writer, and also the extents to which I've been able to use it.  It's enabling people to see an overview of my story on the project level and to see how it all hangs together within this editor framework.  In my opinion that's an insight into my creative process and tools, which is something I definitely enjoy seeing in other artists and writers too.  It's far from any kind of WIP, I could just upload a text file if I wanted that.


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## mottled.kitten (Mar 24, 2009)

Vendetta, if you could post a link to the picture hosted elsewhere in your journals, that would give your readers a chance to see what you want to show them, without having to base it in FurAffinity.


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## TakeWalker (Mar 24, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> I don't think of it as a tutorial as such,



Then it's not a tutorial.



vendetta_leopard said:


> It's far from any kind of WIP, I could just upload a text file if I wanted that.



Then upload a text file. Your problems, they are silly and easily solved.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 24, 2009)

vendetta leopard, then *one* screenshot of a progress would be fine but in scraps.

It's like a "my artist workspace" thing. Past that, it's just more or less the same thing and shouldn't be uploaded. It's the same for "my artist studio/workspace" one photo like that is fine, just so people can see how people arrange their studio/workspaces as an illustrator/designer etc, but it doesn't need to be done constantly. As a writer though, you're going to be limited more than an artist taking a photo/snapshot of a workspace.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 24, 2009)

TakeWalker said:


> Then upload a text file. Your problems, they are silly and easily solved.



You mis-read.  I said it's far from any kind of WIP.  If it was just a WIP I was trying to convey, I could easily upload a text file, but I'm not and it's not, thus I havn't uploaded a text file.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 24, 2009)

Arshes Nei said:


> vendetta leopard, then *one* screenshot of a progress would be fine but in scraps.
> 
> It's like a "my artist workspace" thing. Past that, it's just more or less the same thing and shouldn't be uploaded. It's the same for "my artist studio/workspace" one photo like that is fine, just so people can see how people arrange their studio/workspaces as an illustrator/designer etc, but it doesn't need to be done constantly. As a writer though, you're going to be limited more than an artist taking a photo/snapshot of a workspace.



The screenshot was always in scraps, I've had several friends act quite surprised my submission got deleted, even though it was in scraps.  I really appreciate your clarification though, and a limit of one photo/image on this subject seems perfectly reasonable.  If the intent of the screenshot was just to convey a work in progress, as several keep thinking it is, then I'd be unhappy at this restriction.  Quite the contrary, I have no problem with a rule of one 'my artist workspace' upload limit per user and this one screenshot is all I'd ever want to upload on the subject.

Can I take your post as official admin policy and abide by it?  It might be worth an AUP clarification, because there's nothing really in there right now which speaks of such a thing.  Also I will toss the offending image up on an imagebucket link shortly as several have asked to see it.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 24, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> The screenshot was always in scraps, I've had several friends act quite surprised my submission got deleted, even though it was in scraps.  I really appreciate your clarification though, and a limit of one photo/image on this subject seems perfectly reasonable.  If the intent of the screenshot was just to convey a work in progress, as several keep thinking it is, then I'd be unhappy at this restriction.  Quite the contrary, I have no problem with a rule of one 'my artist workspace' upload limit per user and this one screenshot is all I'd ever want to upload on the subject.
> 
> Can I take your post as official admin policy and abide by it?  It might be worth an AUP clarification, because there's nothing really in there right now which speaks of such a thing.  Also I will toss the offending image up on an imagebucket link shortly as several have asked to see it.



I'll talk with the other administrators so they see this thread and read my response. I think it may have just been reported and then deleted. I don't think admins are actively going out to delete any screenshot/screencap. They may have missed it was in scraps. Usually one O/T (off topic) kind of thing is ok, long as it's not "my gamer meme" or something like that. 

Your intent was to show how you work as a writer. Kind of like how Stephen King has this giant Corkboard he uses with stickies and post-its...tacked on plot and character works for his writings.


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 24, 2009)

Okay by popular request, here is the original image which was deleted for AUP violation:

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv242/vendetta_leopard/writing-environment.jpg


Please be aware that this is a porn story and the small amount of story text visible in the screenshot deals with themes that some may find objectionable.  Keep in mind I am posting this screenshot for clarity, not critique.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> Okay by popular request, here is the original image which was deleted for AUP violation:
> 
> http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv242/vendetta_leopard/writing-environment.jpg
> 
> ...


Can I ask a question: is there anything in that WIP that can't be shown without using a screenshot?

The difference between a screenshot of Photoshop is that it can show more detail going into the work (various layers, etc).


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## vendetta_leopard (Mar 24, 2009)

Dragoneer said:


> Can I ask a question: is there anything in that WIP that can't be shown without using a screenshot?
> 
> The difference between a screenshot of Photoshop is that it can show more detail going into the work (various layers, etc).



Well with the user interface being largely comprised of text of one sort or another, I could technically describe all of it in a great long list, with lengthy explanations as to how each UI element works, what its function is, what sort of data fields are being seen and how they pertain to the story and my writing process on a project level.  However, I consider myself a capable writer, yet I can't imagine writing anything along those lines which even begin to be able to describe adequately and concisely how it all hangs together in this software package.  Yes I could describe it all, no I don't think that text would useful or readable.  In this case a picture is worth more than a thousand words.

Given the intent to convey at a glance, my writing environment, my writer's tools and to give insight into how I can and do structure my writing project, not to mention all the stats, I would say that everything except the sample body of story text shown, cannot be shown in any reasonable manner without using a screenshot.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> Given the intent to convey at a glance, my writing environment, my writer's tools and to give insight into how I can and do structure my writing project, not to mention all the stats, I would say that everything except the sample body of story text shown, cannot be shown in any reasonable manner without using a screenshot.


*nods* In such a case I can somewhat accept that as an answer, but you should crop the screenshot so it only shows the application, not the entire desktop as well.


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## TheDeinonychus (Apr 1, 2009)

Apparently an individual's rights as an artist or writer dont seem to matter compaired to what an admin does or does not consider art. They dont like it, it goes down. The new changes to the AUP just gives them free reign to delete anything that's not considered 'art' by them.


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## WarMocK (Apr 1, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> Given the intent to convey at a glance, my writing environment, my writer's tools and to give insight into how I can and do structure my writing project, not to mention all the stats, I would say that everything except the sample body of story text shown, cannot be shown in any reasonable manner without using a screenshot.


A screenshot and some additional information, all packed up in a nice little package (aka pdf).
That would be the best solution for your problems (as I stated earlier). ;-)


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## Stratelier (Apr 1, 2009)

TheDeinonychus said:


> Apparently an individual's rights as an artist or writer dont seem to matter compaired to what an admin does or does not consider art. They dont like it, it goes down. The new changes to the AUP just gives them free reign to delete anything that's not considered 'art' by them.


You are _so_ bipolar.

This isn't about what "is" or "is not" "art", FurAffinity.net is a furry based site and gets the right to determine what is or is not acceptable for submission. The ground rule for submission is that it must *clearly* contain material created by the submitter, and when you have borderline submissions containing a mixture of artist-made content and non-artist-made content, a line has to be drawn.


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## Adrimor (Apr 1, 2009)

Stratadrake said:


> You are _so_ bipolar.


HEY NOW
_I'm_ bipolar.
From what I can tell, he's just bitchy =V


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## furry (Apr 2, 2009)

As someone else mentioned, just make a journal about it.
Does it HAVE to be a submission? No.


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## Alchera (Apr 2, 2009)

Honestly? 

The only tool an honest writer needs is a brain. Software does not make one good writer, neither do the pen or paper. To me, a screencap of a writing program is questionable as it isn't exactly the same sort of thing you have with graphical art.


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## DuncanFox (Apr 2, 2009)

vendetta_leopard said:


> Well with the user interface being largely comprised of text of one sort or another, I could technically describe all of it in a great long list, with lengthy explanations as to how each UI element works, what its function is, what sort of data fields are being seen and how they pertain to the story and my writing process on a project level.  However, I consider myself a capable writer, yet I can't imagine writing anything along those lines which even begin to be able to describe adequately and concisely how it all hangs together in this software package.  Yes I could describe it all, no I don't think that text would useful or readable.  In this case a picture is worth more than a thousand words.



You know what I see in your screen shot?

1) A WIP story
2) Chapter names above it with checkboxes
3) A character/word/page count

Might as well be a screenshot of MS Word, as far as I'm concerned.  It conveys nothing about the creative process to me.

What am I supposed to be seeing in this screenshot?

(Note: I don't mean this to be a flame.  It's just that you've started an angsty thread about not being able to post this screenshot, and now that I see it, I'm wondering what the fuss is about.)


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## Armaetus (Apr 2, 2009)

The screenshot seems pointless to me, just journal such images and don't post it on your gallery. If you are a writer, your subs would be text documents...not WIP image versions of your stories.


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## vendetta_leopard (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks for the additional comments here.  I'm sorry not everyone was able to appreciate what I'm trying to convey with my screenshot, but I guess that's life. Dragoneer has passed judgement, for which I am grateful, and I will upload a new screenshot for fans who appreciate it, and FA will not crash and burn as a result.  If you dont like it, dont see the need for it, never look in my scraps folder and you will be spared.


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## Armaetus (Apr 3, 2009)

Why bother making a mountain out of a molehill over this?


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## vendetta_leopard (Apr 3, 2009)

Why keep replying to a thread where the original issue has been resolved to the satisfaction of the complainant and admins?  This thread is done, goodbye


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