# Working on blueprints, need advice



## Super_Tron (Jan 20, 2011)

I guess this needs to be said: _Please_ view the *six images* images in these links before making a reply.  The *orange text* is very important for understanding the question posed in this thread.

Over the past couple weeks, I've been brainstorming and designing what I would describe as a mask more than a fursuit head.
But anyway, I got a lot of the design done and parts picked out, but I've run up against a wall called Never Made a Mask Before.
Before I continue, here are the sketches that lay out how this is going to work.
Overview
Distinguishing Features
Eye Articulation
Real Drunk Scrawl Leading to Real Good Idea
Further Thoughts on Articulation
The Block.
This is where I'm stuck.  I need a material to form the shape of the head/face that is lightweight, elastic, but still has enough support to hold small housing boxes for springs, data cables, and possibly an LED circuitboard.

Would some of the suit makers share some wisdom with me?


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## Karimah (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm afraid I don't quite follow, is this going to be a fursuit head for you to physically wear, or just a puppet for you to carry around?


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## Super_Tron (Jan 20, 2011)

Yeah, it's worn on the face, hence all the drawings with outlines of faces inside the mask.  Right now I'm kicking around the idea of having it wrap around in a way that would let me use my own hair instead of trying to recreate real hair.


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## Deo (Jan 20, 2011)

No. None of this will work except for the detatchable-rattatchable horns and articulated jaw. C'mon, a USB drive in the neck? When you're in suit you're not downloading or sharing anything, you're performing and having fun. And you're hot and sweaty and the computer devices needed for USB and data saving would be heavy and fry in sweat, (and probably elecrocute you and leave you with some nasty burns). 

And if you're going to insist on all the gadgetry then you'll need to build it like a proper animatronic head and less like a fursuit. That means cast plastic parts to support the gizmos and extra support. Which will make it heavier and hotter. And servos are loud man. 
This guy is cool. And he's pretty much your only hope of learning how to make animatronics since the industry is so closed doors, especially with trade secrets and ideas. http://willettfx.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/willettfx#p/u/29/U1E-yWeUm4k


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## Super_Tron (Jan 20, 2011)

> And you're hot and sweaty and the computer devices needed for USB and data saving would be heavy and fry in sweat


You mean the flash drive that I plan on using?  Yeah, that's some hot-running technology, that is.
Also, note the part where my scalp is exposed, allowing flow of air.



> When you're in suit you're not downloading or sharing anything


How old fashioned.

Is anyone actually reading the notes I put on the pictures? : (

Also: That dude in the link is a boss.


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## Deo (Jan 20, 2011)

Super_Tron said:


> Also, note the part where my scalp is exposed, allowing flow of air.


Bad idea. This sounds like you're making nightmare fuel. A fursuit head covers the entire head, do not leave human parts exposed, do not leave your neck exposed. Either of those are fursuiting faux pas and are super tacky and awful.



Super_Tron said:


> Is anyone actually reading the notes I put on the pictures? : (


How the hell can we? It's blurry as all fuck. Either retype all that shit so we can read it, or we'll ignore the crappy dark smeared scan with it's illegible handwriting.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 20, 2011)

But-but-but the typed orange text!

Also lol nightmare fuel, fursuits cannot possibly get more frightening than they already are.  Which is why I have not once mentioned the word "fursuit" in this thread except to specify that the term "fursuit" was not in play here--up until now, I guess.

As for the human parts being exposed, I am not planning on having anything but my hair visible.  The texture of the mask will extend down below my collar.


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## Foxfairy (Jan 20, 2011)

I think you're biting off way more than you can chew here. If you've never made a mask before, start simply. 
What you're looking at is pretty much impossible: 

First off, it'd be hard to get the right amount of control for spring loaded articulated eyes. This would be difficult to fit in a muzzle. If you want to do articulated eyes, you should look into animatronics, which are difficult and expensive.

Secondly, it'd be useless to have a USB hub in your mask. You won't want to be sitting around attached to a computer loading files during a convention or an outing; you're going to be moving around. And I'm gonna echo what Deo said: it's going to be bulky, and the insides of fursuits, masks, whatever you want to call them--are really, really hot. Even a lightweight, small mask is going to be really, really warm. You are going to sweat everywhere, and that will fry any circuitry you have going. 

Thirdly, gluing magnets to your face isn't going to accomplish much and is going to be very uncomfortable. I doubt you will be able to get the right sensitivity to move lips with magnets glued to your face. 

Finally, you would never be able to fit all this into a "small" lightweight head that is proportionate enough to let you use your own hair. For a mask to use your own hair, it has to be tight fitting and very small. To fit even half the features you are thinking about takes a much bigger mask. 

This is really impractical. If you want to dress up and have moving eyes and lips, you should get a latex prosthetic and paint it on. 

Have you even fursuited / worn a mascot type costume? It doesn't sound like you have, because if you did you would probably realize that when in costume the things that are the most pressing are breathing and making sure to avoid obstacles in a costume with a limited field of vision in a place filled with people.

My advice is to make a basic mask first, then work on fine tuning it and adding features Even a regular mask is difficult and time consuming to make.


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## Deo (Jan 20, 2011)

Foxfairy said:


> Thirdly, gluing magnets to your face isn't going to accomplish much and is going to be very uncomfortable. I doubt you will be able to get the right sensitivity to move lips with magnets glued to your face.


 BAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA
OH JEEZZUS ON RYE.
OH GOD I LAUGHED SO HARD IT CRACKED MY BACK.
SERIOUSLY? MAGNETS? TO YOUR FACE?

I had to stop there again as my laughter prevented me from typing.
Seriously though, fucking magnets? GLUED to your FACE?
What meth/LSD concoction are you on, boy?
Seriously, though, am I going to die from all this laughing? I'm sort of starting to choke on the giggles.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 20, 2011)

You guys are a bunch of defeatists. "Oh, you can't do this, you can't do that, yar yar yar,"  I asked what material I could use to sculpt some parts that would be a basic bone structure and a fabric that could make some low-tension elastic skin, not if this was possible or not. I've already figured out how to put these things together: get someone who knows what they're doing to do that.

I find it lolful that all of your expert advice is "give up."


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## Monster. (Jan 21, 2011)

Super_Tron said:


> You guys are a bunch of defeatists. "Oh, you can't do this, you can't do that, yar yar yar,"  I asked what material I could use to sculpt some parts that would be a basic bone structure and a fabric that could make some low-tension elastic skin, not if this was possible or not. I've already figured out how to put these things together: get someone who knows what they're doing to do that.
> 
> I find it lolful that all of your expert advice is "give up."


 
Um, it's probably NOT possible because there's no reason to put a USB or magnets within your suit. It would just be extra weight and a lot more uncomfortable. Suits tend to be very hot, itchy, and/or very stuffy. If you're going to put a USB or magnets in with the equation, you're just going to cause more trouble for yourself.

And their advice is fair because they obviously have more experience than you do. If you're going to be a dick and laugh about it, at least be BETTER than them before you start putting everyone down. Or just do what you just said:



> I've already figured out how to put these things together: get someone who knows what they're doing to do that.



Find someone and stop bitching. They'll tell you the same thing everyone else in this thread is telling you.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jan 21, 2011)

We are realist... I cannot imagine having all those electronics in my face while sweating. I would feel like I am playing russian roulette with an electric chair. Yikes man- geeze I cannot see how you intend to do that- not only will it be ungodly hot- it will also be heavy and bulky. By the by magnets and usb ports will not work. Not only will you mess up and corrupt any data you plan on sharing- really magnets? REALLY? I suggest you re think this- contact "Lion of the Sun". He is a fursuit builder that deals with high tech fursuits.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

I appreciate all input from this thread.
However, I have found the necessary materials via a helpful person on IRC.

Also, :101: magnets do not corrupt flash memory, nor do they interfere with insulated cables.


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## Jesie (Jan 21, 2011)

O RLY? How about you rub those magnets all over your computer screen! Better yet! Let's put them ALL OVER YOUR HARDDRIVE.

Hopefully after you fuck it up enough you wont be able to use your computer, much less post here with crackpot mask making ideals.


We shoot you down because:

*A: What you are attempting to make is not something even the most veteran costume maker would attempt.*

The reason for this is:

*B: Many of the 'Ideals' you have simply will not work.*

Go ahead. Try it. We wont stop you. But when half the shit you put in your mask ends up breaking or falling apart or causing your mask to weigh over nine thousand pounds, Don't come crying to us.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

Progress is scary y'all


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

Jesie said:


> O RLY? How about you rub those magnets all over your computer screen! Better yet! Let's put them ALL OVER YOUR HARDDRIVE.
> 
> Hopefully after you fuck it up enough you wont be able to use your computer, much less post here with crackpot mask making *ideals.*


Are you sure you don't mean "ideas?"  Also, why would I even think to put a computer in a mask?  All I need is this little USB dongle that accepts Micro SD.  You silly.




> We shoot you down because:
> 
> *A: What you are attempting to make is not something even the most veteran costume maker would attempt.*


Pussies.



> The reason for this is:
> 
> *B: Many of the 'Ideals'*


*
*
I'm pretty sure you mean "ideas."  Almost certain now.*



you have simply will not work.

Click to expand...

*


> Go ahead. Try it. We wont stop you. But when half the shit you put in your mask ends up breaking or falling apart or causing your mask to weigh over nine thousand pounds, Don't come crying to us.


 K.  Here's a going away present.
The definition of "Ideal"


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## Jesie (Jan 21, 2011)

You post here asking for help with your *IDEALS*, but when we give you our two cents you act like a know-it-all douche.

Dude, I'll be frank. I don't give two shits from a rats ass what the flying fuck you do. If you want a heavy as fuck mask with memory ports, To which I ask why the hell they need even be there at all but _WHATEVER_, By all means. Make that shit. But don't post here asking for help and TOTAL DISREGARD IT  when we all agree that it's a bad *IDEAL* and top it off by making yourself look like a even larger ass by correcting me on two words that mean the same motherfucking thing.
I know the words I use and what they mean. If I did not, I would look in my dictionary. You are not my dictionary.

How about you link me a page to professional costume makers who know what the hell they're doing and never come here again?  Maybe ask them why they don't do half the things you so boldly demand MUST BE in this mask without the second thought that half of what you're trying to put in there is totally useless and pointless? Or draw better fucking instructions if you expect us to read them?
Maybe I link you a page on how to write in English? God knows it don't look like you can.

Those are all great *IDEALS* ain't they?


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

Jesie said:


> You post here asking for help with your *IDEALS*, but when we give you our two cents you act like a know-it-all douche.
> 
> Dude, I'll be frank. I don't give two shits from a rats ass what the flying fuck you do. If you want a heavy as fuck mask with memory ports, To which I ask why the hell they need even be there at all but _WHATEVER_, By all means. Make that shit. But don't post here asking for help and TOTAL DISREGARD IT  when we all agree that it's a bad *IDEAL* and top it off by making yourself look like a even larger ass by correcting me on two words that mean the same motherfucking thing.
> I know the words I use and what they mean. If I did not, I would look in my dictionary. You are not my dictionary.
> ...


 
I can tell you're from 4chan, so I'll just leave this here.
Someone who's done what I'm doing


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## Fay V (Jan 21, 2011)

I see a nice latex own-eyes mask

Not crazy electronics right next to a sweaty face.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

Fay V said:


> I see a nice latex own-eyes mask
> 
> Not crazy electronics right next to a sweaty face.


 CRAZY ELECTRONICS!


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## Monster. (Jan 21, 2011)

This is stupid. Why is this thread still open?


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## Jesie (Jan 21, 2011)

Also, That person there, he/she's done that a lot. They know what they are doing, unlike you.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

No idea, Miss Haha.  I've already found people with actual helpful advice instead of just whining about challenging ideas.


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## Jesie (Jan 21, 2011)

She was regarding to you dumbass.

That fox mask is something simple. It's a simple mask. The shit you what to do with your mask, from what I can gather from blurry as fuck chicken scratches and bad scans, is very advanced.

A challenge is one thing, what you want to do is just stupid and pointless.


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## Super_Tron (Jan 21, 2011)

Jesie said:


> Wahhh I am insecure so I drop f-bombs to make myself sound intimidating, why did you have to come up with an idea that hasn't been done before? Wah wah wah I can't stop posting about how I could never do what you're thinking of doing and


 That's about where I stopped reading.
Someone close and/or delete this thread.  It took three days and countless posts to _not_ accomplish what some dude in IRC did in about 5 minutes after having the question posed.
You should all be ashamed.
Except for dinosaurdammit.


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## Jesie (Jan 21, 2011)

It's funny how I don't recall my last post having any F-bombs in it BUT THAT'S COOL YO.

As long as you leave we'll all be happy, I don't care how it happens.


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## Monster. (Jan 21, 2011)

Oh, I'm ashamed. Ashamed that you actually think people are whining. The people who gave advice here? They know their shit. You don't. Don't be so close-minded because they're not telling you what you want to hear.


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## Furr (Jan 21, 2011)

Now when one person says that what your doing is a bad idea I can understand ignoring it. However when multiple people say what your doing is a bad idea then you might want to take it into consideration. Pretty much everyone in this thread is giving you good advice, just not in a sunshine and kittens kind of way. 

All of your blurry doodles look _WAY_ too complicated for practical animatronics. Most movie monsters with complex animatronics have a mock up body double for the body work and a separate head for complex movement/animatronics close-ups. Plus have you taken into consideration the size and weight of the battery you're going to have to lug around? You'll look like a hunchback with a giant bobble sized head. Most of what you've described from what I can see can be achieved by puppeteering or optical illusions and will be much cheaper to make.


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## Ozriel (Jan 21, 2011)

Furr said:


> All of your blurry doodles look _WAY_ too complicated for practical animatronics. Most movie monsters with complex animatronics have a mock up body double for the body work and a separate head for complex movement/animatronics close-ups. Plus have you taken into consideration the size and weight of the battery you're going to have to lug around? You'll look like a hunchback with a giant bobble sized head. Most of what you've described from what I can see can be achieved by puppeteering or optical illusions and will be much cheaper to make.




Don't forget that most anamatronic masks and such, like the werewolves in Underworld are much larger and bulkier than what they appear.


On another note: Please keep the discussion civil.
OP: People know what they are talking about it, do not disregard their advice.


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## Fay V (Jan 21, 2011)

It's daring to try one or two new things. It's not good to try to take on too much at once. It's a common rule that complexity is exponential. If you add one new thing then it is difficult, two things is 4 times more difficult. 
One of the biggest problems is when people do not look at the big picture. you can ask how to make animatronic ears, a movable jaw, movable eyes, and so on. Someone can give you the way to make each individual thing, but brining it all together eventually it breaks down.


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## GingerM (Jan 21, 2011)

I see I'm late to the party, but I'll take a poke at some of this. Bear in mind I have never made a fursuit or a mask, but I'll address what I think may be some concerns.

1) A question more than a problem - why do you want a USB port or MicroSD card reader? Regardless, you mention that the mask will extend down below the neck, so presumably below the collar line of whatever shirt or top you may be wearing. If I'm correct in that, then may I suggest that you try to minimize the electronics actually present in the mask? Perhaps a small flat-pack worn at chest or tummy level for the bulk of the circuitry, with serial data and power supply to whatever devices must be present in the mask, such as LEDs and so forth.

2) Unlike others here, I do not see a serious problem with having some electronics present in the mask, though I would recommend that they be insulated from your face. A mask will get hot and sweaty, so I imagine you're going to have some kind of absorbent fabric layer in contact with your skin to wick sweat away. I would think the next layer - and it need not be continuous over the entire inside of the mask; just where connections are present - should be some kind of thin rubber. The operating voltage will most likely be under 10 Vdc if you're thinking of driving LEDs and so forth, so nothing very thick will be needed.

3) I would seriously get in touch with other, experienced mask and suit makers; it certainly can't hurt to get their feedback. Afterall, you're the one doing the building, so you're certainly not bound to take the advice, but it would be helpful to have it.


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## Ozriel (Jan 21, 2011)

Fay V said:


> It's daring to try one or two new things. It's not good to try to take on too much at once. It's a common rule that complexity is exponential. If you add one new thing then it is difficult, two things is 4 times more difficult.
> One of the biggest problems is when people do not look at the big picture. you can ask how to make animatronic ears, a movable jaw, movable eyes, and so on. Someone can give you the way to make each individual thing, but brining it all together eventually it breaks down.


 

When people like to make complex suits, they don't take in their own comfort first. it's nice to have all sorts of bells and whistles on a mask, but if it makes the wearer uncomfortable or unwearable, then it becomes useless as a costume accessory.


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## Monster. (Jan 22, 2011)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> When people like to make complex suits, they don't take in their own comfort first. it's nice to have all sorts of bells and whistles on a mask, but if it makes the wearer uncomfortable or unwearable, then it becomes useless as a costume accessory.


 
And then they wonder why they end up sweating from their eyeballs and have absolutely no fun at a con.

OP, seriously, I am trying to be civil. The things you're attempting is probably dangerous; the people here were giving you the advice you wanted. Instead of being rude, just thank everyone for even bothering to help you out. I know you already have "professional" help, but taking critique as an insult is your own fault so don't think you have a right to attack others who are trying to be of help.


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