# Real life as a hard magic system



## Foxridley (Nov 10, 2022)

> _Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. _–Arthur C. Clarke


So, this is an idea I've had in my head in a while. For those who aren't familiar with it, a hard magic system is one where the magic has a set of well-defined rules for what can and cannot be done with that magic. In some of these hard magic settings, the "magic" is not referred to as magic by those who use it (examples include bending in _Avatar: The Last Airbender,_ alchemy in _Fullmetal Alchemist_, sympathy in the _Kingkiller Chronicle_, and pymary in _Unsounded_). In the latter three settings especially, this hard magic is essentially just an understanding of the natural laws of that govern their respective universes, and using that understanding to manipulate energy and matter. In some of these settings, it's an academic field unto itself, which includes studying the nature of the universe for the sake of understanding.

But isn't that what science and technology are? Humans have made things, based on an understanding of chemistry and physics, that would seem magical to a technologically primitive society. That understanding has allowed us to make things like airplanes, computers, microwave ovens, radio telescopes, and antibiotics. And here we are, looking through telescopes and microscopes, even using parts of the spectrum invisible to our eyes. It almost seems like our own science and technology could fit in as a hard magic system.


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## Vanessa Howl (Nov 10, 2022)

Magic and science are the same thing: the hard system is that something can be either magic or science depending on who you ask.

For example, think of a demon. You likely are thinking of some evil spirit that comes to the earthly realm to cause trouble for humanity, but what if I told you that demons (as well as all spirits) are actually their own race of aliens and that hell is simply one of many very physical planets that are simply that are currently much too far for any human or human invention to travel? What if I told you that these aliens had powers just like people say they do but instead of simply casting spells like harry potter, their power comes from knowing how to manipulate universe around them on a metaphysical level that humans could (and some, to a point can) also do if simply given enough proper knowledge and training (just like using any device). 

Now, what if I told you that dragons not only exist but are a elder race so ancient and powerful that humans are micro in comparison? What if I also told you that out there, there is also another elder race that was created by the dragons, are the size of a solar system and take the form of what could be called eldritch snake horrors?

What if I told you that every god exists, that "god" is just a title and all gods are actually members of a variety of different races (some more than one) or that one of them was created almost like Frankenstein's monster created with hand-picked parts of other races to have both the ability and willingness to wipe out humanity when the time is right? 

Case in point: magic is just science that has yet to be understood and science is just limited magic. Both are one and the same with the one and only real difference being perspective.


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## Foxridley (Nov 10, 2022)

Vanessa Howl said:


> Magic and science are the same thing: the hard system is that something can be either magic or science depending on who you ask.
> 
> For example, think of a demon. You likely are thinking of some evil spirit that comes to the earthly realm to cause trouble for humanity, but what if I told you that demons (as well as all spirits) are actually their own race of aliens and that hell is simply one of many very physical planets that are simply that are currently much too far for any human or human invention to travel? What if I told you that these aliens had powers just like people say they do but instead of simply casting spells like harry potter, their power comes from knowing how to manipulate universe around them on a metaphysical level that humans could (and some, to a point can) also do if simply given enough proper knowledge and training (just like using any device).
> 
> ...


Kinda makes me think of Stargate SG-1, actually.


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## Vanessa Howl (Nov 10, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> Kinda makes me think of Stargate SG-1, actually.


Never watched it but humans have been telling stories for millions of years and you know what they say: every story has a kernel of truth. Some more than others but humans have been around long enough for generations of real life events and knowledge to seep into one's subconscious and come out in the form of fantastical stories. Past lives may also play a part in this, as the cycle of rebirth is never ending. Either way, sometimes people get it right even if they don't realize it.


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## Foxridley (Nov 10, 2022)

Vanessa Howl said:


> Never watched it but humans have been telling stories for millions of years and you know what they say: every story has a kernel of truth. Some more than others but humans have been around long enough for generations of real life events and knowledge to seep into one's subconscious and come out in the form of fantastical stories. Past lives may also play a part in this, as the cycle of rebirth is never ending. Either way, sometimes people get it right even if they don't realize it.


Basic idea in Stargate is that most of the gods were aliens who ruled ancient Earth. Hell came up since one of the more malevolent aliens set up a moon as a hellish penal colony.


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## Vanessa Howl (Nov 10, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> Basic idea in Stargate is that most of the gods were aliens who ruled ancient Earth. Hell came up since one of the more malevolent aliens set up a moon as a hellish penal colony.


I think I'll stick to star trek for my sci-fi fix.XD


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## Dragon64 (Nov 10, 2022)

This is reminding me of that saying about how sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic


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## Foxridley (Nov 10, 2022)

Dragon64 said:


> This is reminding me of that saying about how sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic


That quote is right at the top of this thread.


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## Dragon64 (Nov 10, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> That quote is right at the top of this thread.


Didn't notice it, it kinda blended in with the time stamp when I was scrolling thru


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## Foxridley (Nov 10, 2022)

Dragon64 said:


> Didn't notice it, it kinda blended in with the time stamp when I was scrolling thru


Yeah, it’s not that prominent.


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## Pomorek (Nov 11, 2022)

Foxridley said:


> So, this is an idea I've had in my head in a while. For those who aren't familiar with it, a hard magic system is one where the magic has a set of well-defined rules for what can and cannot be done with that magic. In some of these hard magic settings, the "magic" is not referred to as magic by those who use it (examples include bending in _Avatar: The Last Airbender,_ alchemy in _Fullmetal Alchemist_, sympathy in the _Kingkiller Chronicle_, and pymary in _Unsounded_). In the latter three settings especially, this hard magic is essentially just an understanding of the natural laws of that govern their respective universes, and using that understanding to manipulate energy and matter. In some of these settings, it's an academic field unto itself, which includes studying the nature of the universe for the sake of understanding.
> 
> But isn't that what science and technology are? Humans have made things, based on an understanding of chemistry and physics, that would seem magical to a technologically primitive society. That understanding has allowed us to make things like airplanes, computers, microwave ovens, radio telescopes, and antibiotics. And here we are, looking through telescopes and microscopes, even using parts of the spectrum invisible to our eyes. It almost seems like our own science and technology could fit in as a hard magic system.


I could go Captain Obvious and say that these fictional magic systems were deliberately patterned after science, and so in return the real life thing remind us of those magic systems now. But that would remove all that's interesting from the topic. 

This quickly gets philosphical and as such, debatable to hell and back. But indeed, technology could be described as the part of magic that was proven to work in a repeatable, consistent way. After all, chemistry stems directly from alchemy. And physics with its associated mathematical apparatus has roots in astrology. Also what is probably little known, I got to read that early scientists (think Newton's era) were experimenting with actual magical rituals of their time to see if they work. Plot twist, looks like they didn't... 

And indeed, lots of this techy stuff we take for granted is an actualization of previous generation's fairy tales and dreams about magical things. Ships that sail the sky, carts that go without a horse, lamps that just shine without need to refill or replace them every once in a while, stoves that cook the food almost by themselves, contraptions that wash the clothes for us, oh my! Also we've got our little electronic "demons" that do all manners of tedious calculations for us, we've got miraculous maps that show us our own position and where to go, and our communication systems rival all ideas about telepathy. Not to mention that we have knowedge about the universe that the ancients philosophers would die for.


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## Rayd (Nov 11, 2022)

ive always personally thought this comparison was silly, even from a philosophical point of view. the way i've differentiated magic from science is that scientific phenomenon happens within plausible reason, whereas magic is nonsensical and spontaneous (aside from the few cases in media where there are reasons beyond "mana" or "magical energy", in which case it could vaguely fall under the scientific umbrella, but i don't personally feel like it can work the other way around).

 technology is a physical craft, that takes real time and resources to create and upkeep, whereas in many cases, it doesn't take much for magic users in media to complete the same tasks modern technology can do. we're still far more primitive relatively than most fictional magic systems. even though we have achieved things past generations could only dream of, it's not as effortless as it would be if it were truly magic. and even then, that's just a dated perception on what the people then thought impossible, so of course it would be magical to them. there's people now who thought the same thing about self-driving cars, virtual reality, seamless AI and voice recognition devices/software.

by definition, magic implies that there's no other reason it happens other than "a mysterious force" or "a supernatural power".
by definition, science implies there is evidence as to why things happen as they do in our world, and that we can understand them fully given enough research.

they're directly conflicted by their definitions.

magic as depicted in media thrives on a lack of general understanding in use of plot devices - the audience can't question magic because.. it doesn't exist, so we don't have a real life counterpart to compare it to and critique. science in media is used in a lot of the same ways as magic is, with these super genius characters creating inventions that should be impossible, and in record time, with no mention of resources, by themselves (think bulma/dr. gero from DBZ, rick sanchez from rick & morty, and jimmy neutron) - but although comparable, it is understood that this depiction of science is totally exaggerated fiction and unrealistic, and has no real bearing on true science, so it has no real merit when transferring the view over to the real world.


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## Foxridley (Nov 11, 2022)

Rayd said:


> ive always personally thought this comparison was silly, even from a philosophical point of view. the way i've differentiated magic from science is that scientific phenomenon happens within plausible reason, whereas magic is nonsensical and spontaneous (aside from the few cases in media where there are reasons beyond "mana" or "magical energy", in which case it could vaguely fall under the scientific umbrella, but i don't personally feel like it can work the other way around).
> 
> technology is a physical craft, that takes real time and resources to create and upkeep, whereas in many cases, it doesn't take much for magic users in media to complete the same tasks modern technology can do. we're still far more primitive relatively than most fictional magic systems. even though we have achieved things past generations could only dream of, it's not as effortless as it would be if it were truly magic. and even then, that's just a dated perception on what the people then thought impossible, so of course it would be magical to them. there's people now who thought the same thing about self-driving cars, virtual reality, seamless AI and voice recognition devices/software.
> 
> ...


Though we kinda end up with a bit of a wavy line between science and magic in fiction.
For instance, normally a person whose shadow kills people would be considered magical, but an episode of the _X-Files_ chalked it up to the shadow being contaminated with dark matter. Sort of a phlebotinum cop-out.
By contrast, the more detailed magic system in _The Kingkiller Chronicle_ is constructed based on real concepts in fiction, like conservation of mass and energy, and the mechanics seem to be inspired by quantum entanglement. So it actually offers a "harder" explanation.
And then we have things like chemistry-based explanations for how dragons breathe fire.


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## reptile logic (Nov 19, 2022)

I've played with that in my writings. To quote a passage from my book, the character Blue said, “_He needs to adopt a new way of viewing his own role in the larger picture. He is capable of doing things that he may have yet to imagine. A wise person once said, ‘What the casual observer believes to be magic is simply a technology, or a way of doing things, that the observer does not yet understand.’.”_


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## The_Happiest_Husky (Nov 19, 2022)

Real good hard magic in Brandon Sanderson's books.
I love hard magic systems, in the sci fi universe I'm working on my goal is to flesh out a magic system that can be manipulated many different ways, and that many races have adapted to fit their needs to the point where the magic is just another technology available

Also, another quote like the one you said is my signature v


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## reptile logic (Nov 19, 2022)

^ Yep, spotted that quote right away.


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