# Site Status [12/15/2013]



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

The last of the data is importing, and we'll be standing by to finish the upgrades. ETA should be tonight.

The FA staff wishes to deeply apologize for the time this is taking. It has taken far, far more time than was imagined.

Thanks for being patient.


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## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

That was said two days ago.  Seriously, what's the hold-up this time?  We got programmers here for users.


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## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> That was said two days ago.  Seriously, what's the hold-up this time?  We got programmers here for users.



Like I said in the op, things ended up taking waaaaay longer than expected. We're all really sorry about this.


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## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you for the update, even if they aren't as frequent as some of us would like.

So I'll just flat out ask why we aren't hearing from Yak about this, or any feedback based on how many people want to help and contribute to the future well-being of the site by helping with coding and things like that.


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## dorianfen (Dec 15, 2013)

I am glad to have an update, especially JUST after I really start losing my patience. I really hope the site comes back up tonight, for the sake of everyone who has gotten impatient with this outage. If any issues are encountered I am sure that I speak for everyone when I say PLEASE give us more frequent updates, even just to say "we're still working on it, and we're sorry it is taking so long"

-Dfen


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm curious as to how the site will react to the flood of "omg FA IS BACK!" journals.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Dec 15, 2013)

I remember uncle Kage telling a story once, that one user got enough hate mail to crash FA.

It makes me wonder how fragile FA's infrastructure really is.


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## jayhusky (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The last of the data is importing, and we'll be standing by to finish the upgrades. ETA should be tonight.
> 
> The FA staff wishes to deeply apologize for the time this is taking. It has taken far, far more time than was imagined.
> 
> Thanks for being patient.




Well, thanks for posting an update for us. Good to know things are still working along in the background. But truthfully there is dire need for more than just Yak plugging in fixes, please bring that up in the next chat you guys all have..


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks Mentova. This update is appreciated.


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The last of the data is importing, and we'll be standing by to finish the upgrades. ETA should be tonight.
> 
> The FA staff wishes to deeply apologize for the time this is taking. It has taken far, far more time than was imagined.
> 
> Thanks for being patient.



My anger is assuaged.  I'll even wait for Monday, at this point.

BTW, did Kobi LaCroix do your icon? It looks like his work.


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## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> My anger is assuaged.  I'll even wait for Monday, at this point.
> 
> BTW, did Kobi LaCroix do your icon? It looks like his work.



Nope. It was Silverclaw (http://www.furaffinity.net/user/silverclaw1), a good friend of mine.


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> My anger is assuaged.  I'll even wait for Monday, at this point.
> 
> BTW, did Kobi LaCroix do your icon? It looks like his work.



That's actually Silverclaw's work (Silverclaw1 on FA) and is from a reference sheet for Mentova's fox character http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11878730/



Mentova said:


> Nope. It was Silverclaw (http://www.furaffinity.net/user/silverclaw1), a good friend of mine.



Good stuff....I just started watching her and I like what I see


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## PraeUni (Dec 15, 2013)

Wow didn't it take a while, never assume computers will do anything quickly...oh! Hiya all here long time watcher but first time poster...patience is a virtue with computer updates...hope to see my escape route open again.

You have coped well with trying times and everyone lets stay super calm and let the techies work away in peace...cheers all you lucky people


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

PraeUni said:


> Wow didn't it take a while, never assume computers will do anything quickly...oh! Hiya all here long time watcher but first time poster...patience is a virtue with computer updates...hope to see my escape route open again.
> 
> You have coped well with trying times and everyone lets stay super calm and let the techies work away in peace...cheers all you lucky people



lol don't remind me....computers can really p*ss me off with their crap sometimes...it's a good thing I've learned to be patient with mine or it'd probably be out the window by now XP


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

I fully expect to see the site go down completely while the hard drive is replaced. When that happens, let us know. We won't panic then.


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## PraeUni (Dec 15, 2013)

You expect too much of us, someone always panics.


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## Terror-Run (Dec 15, 2013)

Would be great if it was up tonight^^ I gotta stay up all night due to pain as the doc won't open until morning, and nothing is more distracting than FA  
(I get to watch some seriously weird streams due to FA, and there is always a submission or journal where the drama roams)


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

PraeUni said:


> You expect too much of us, someone always panics.



Okay, point.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> That was said two days ago.  Seriously, what's the hold-up this time?  We got programmers here for users.





Mentova said:


> Like I said in the op, things ended up taking waaaaay longer than expected. We're all really sorry about this.



I think he meant that we want more specific details as to why the site has been migrating data for five days now. We're in day seven of this mess, and without knowing the exact details of what they're doing (or being updated often enough for that matter), there's really not way to assume that the ETA would be accurate. It's okay, though, we're not mad at you, Mentova. It's just frustrating that we have to have several mods giving us different messages instead of someone like Dragoneer (who hasn't updated his twitter in almost a day when he usually updates several times per hour, that's a little worrying) or Yak (who has been silent since everything started) actually relaying us statuses directly. I do appreciate the update, but they're not frequent enough, especially with so many people depending on this site for various reasons and it being the holidays.

It's a pretty bitter pill to swallow that the first person to report the hard drive burnouts to the forums predicted an FA-free weekend, even though Dragoneer said that he wasn't planning on anything like that happening. So what ETA can we trust at this point? If all the details are made known and everything is transparent, then maybe we could gauge better for ourselves, but we're constantly kept in the dark about everything, which I just think is disrespectful. Without the community, FA wouldn't exist at all. I know that Dragoneer is aware of this, but is Yak? As I've said before, he just doesn't come across as the type of person who cares about anything or anyone, especially as I say that actions speak louder than words, and he's done almost nothing with the site for seven years despite promise after promise not from him, but Dragoneer.

Then what happens when the site finally does go back up? There will be an absolute flooding of submissions, journals, notes, comments, and more. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the site doesn't go completely down shortly after that and probably stay down until New Year's.


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## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I think he meant that we want more specific details as to why the site has been migrating data for five days now. We're in day seven of this mess, and without knowing the exact details of what they're doing (or being updated often enough for that matter), there's really not way to assume that the ETA would be accurate. It's okay, though, we're not mad at you, Mentova. It's just frustrating that we have to have several mods giving us different messages instead of someone like Dragoneer (who hasn't updated his twitter in almost a day when he usually updates several times per hour, that's a little worrying) or Yak (who has been silent since everything started) actually relaying us statuses directly. I do appreciate the update, but they're not frequent enough, especially with so many people depending on this site for various reasons and it being the holidays.



Duraji hit it on the head.  I don't fault the messenger, Mentova, but the message we're getting isn't giving hope to the faithful.  Unfortunately, even Dragoneer also is being kept in the dark.

Frankly put, people don't want to be kept in the dark.  People want to be updated as to what's going on.  They want to understand the problem.  This is why they ask these questions and demand to know.

But the trick is to give them enough detail to find out what's going on and give a good estimate, but not give away to much or even confuse users (which is even worse).  It's a fine art, where experience helps judge the right balance, and also to bring users up to a level of understanding.

Right now the level of detail we're getting is close (but not too close) to nothing.  Some more needs to be released.  Are we still stuck in notification imports?  How about those drives?


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## Kalmor (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> Duraji hit it on the head.  I don't fault the messenger, Mentova, but the message we're getting isn't giving hope to the faithful.  Unfortunately, even Dragoneer also is being kept in the dark.
> 
> Frankly put, people don't want to be kept in the dark.  People want to be updated as to what's going on.  They want to understand the problem.  This is why they ask these questions and demand to know.
> 
> ...


When we're all in the dark (including 'neer apparently), there's nothing we can do. Minty and I can only post updates we've been told to post, and we haven't been told anything more yet other than what is stated in the OP. I'll keep prodding them.


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## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> When we're all in the dark (including 'neer apparently), there's nothing we can do. Minty and I can only post updates we've been told to post, and we haven't been told anything more yet other than what is stated in the OP. I'll keep prodding them.



Well, stop poking them with a stick and start using swords instead! I bet Yak never did customer service before (which is often the case in IT).


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## SkieFire (Dec 15, 2013)

I frogblasted the ventcore. Sorry.


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## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> Well, stop poking them with a stick and start using swords instead! I bet Yak never did customer service before (which is often the case in IT).



I've done customer service -and- IT before! Do I win? 

In all seriousness though, Raptros and I have been keeping you guys updated as much as possible. This has been a slow and painful process. Stupid servers :c


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## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> When we're all in the dark (including 'neer apparently), there's nothing we can do. Minty and I can only post updates we've been told to post, and we haven't been told anything more yet other than what is stated in the OP. I'll keep prodding them.



I screenshotted this. 

Does everyone else see the problem here? When even the FA Admin/Owner doesn't even know what's going on, then there's some serious issues that need to be addressed. For all we know Yak is intentionally keeping everything to himself because most of us realize the problems are in the coding (his dept) and not the hardware itself. If he's quiet on the forums, he can't get the hit with any backlash. I've seen it happen enough times where if someone messes up badly enough, they simply stay quiet about everything that happened. Want a recent example? When have we heard anything from Belic/K'gra on the entire FurFright issue?

EDIT: Raptros understand my issue is not with you or Mentova. It's the lack of communication we're getting and the lack of willingness to accept help from the community to fix the issues.


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## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> When even the FA Admin/Owner doesn't even know what's going on...



You mean lies about not knowing what's going on so he can avoid all responsibility for the fact things are still broke?


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## Kalmor (Dec 15, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> I screenshotted this.


I'm not fussed, 'neer also eluded to it on his twitter (which was linked before in another thread) https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/411980681195974656



> EDIT: Raptros understand my issue is not with you. It's the lack of communication we're getting and the lack of willingness to accept help from the community to fix the issues.


Heh, I am too. But alas we must do what we can for now. Any big changes in attitude will take time.


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## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> You mean lies about not knowing what's going on  so he can avoid all responsibility for the fact things are still  broke?



He can try to avoid it all he likes, in the end it's still his  responsibility. Ever hear the phrase that "The captain of a vessel is  responsible for the actions of their crew?" That applies for 'Neer as  well. He's the Admin/Owner, he's the one who brought the staff on and  he's ultimately responsible for making sure rules are enforced. It's his  burden to bear, whether he likes it or not.



Raptros said:


> Heh, I am too. But alas we must do what we can  for now. Any big changes in attitude will take time.



Yea but how long is that going to take? What's going to be the catalyst where enough is enough?


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## rjbartrop (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I've done customer service -and- IT before! Do I win?
> 
> In all seriousness though, Raptros and I have been keeping you guys updated as much as possible. This has been a slow and painful process. Stupid servers :c



Fair enough.   Everything takes longer and costs more.  Since there's nothing any of us can do anything to speed up the process, I suppose a little zen is in order.


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## Loki's Right Hand (Dec 15, 2013)

OMG. Seven days. Woooooooow. We've been without FA for longer and survived. Does no one remember the three month downtime in 2010? We had less information and updates then. Y'know, when the colo building _burned down. _

And yeah- they totally can help slow data transfer. I have a high end computer I built myself, and backing stuff up can take minutes or sometimes days, despite the fact that in perfect conditions, it should take mere seconds. Is that my fault? Maybe. But most likely, it's just the computer being what it is-- a machine that will randomly bottleneck on stuff and you never know _what. _

Never mind they said that weather was a factor. That, I'm afraid, is not something within FA's power to control.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Heh, I am too. But alas we must do what we can for now. Any big changes in attitude will take time.



Because seven years of being on staff wasn't enough time? Honestly! How many times must the site suffer catastrophic failure (I'd say being unable to be fully interacted with for at least seven days now is considered pretty big, there have only been two other failures bigger than this one) before they actually fix the problem instead of cover up the symptoms? If they want us to feel that they actually care about the community, they're not doing enough to show it. Actions speak louder than words.

Let it be known that I don't think the mods here are doing anything wrong, though, and in fact I really appreciate everything they're doing they reassure the community. Raptros, you're doing your best and we appreciate you highly for it! Same with Mentova, I'd hope that everyone is happy that you're doing something to help ease our worries! You two have clearly shown that you care about the community!

Though I do wonder: where did you get this information, and if it was from Dragoneer or Yak, why couldn't they have posted it directly? It's also alarming to me that Dragoneer is clearly upset about this and apologized, but I have never EVER seen Yak apologize for anything or throw anyone a bone even when he was clearly in the wrong. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I really do feel that Yak is the consistently weak link in the chain, and as soon as he's removed, FA will be much better for it. And if I'm wrong, I'd love to see him reply to this in a civil manner and quell our fears, after all, it's public record that he said history would judge his performance. As far as I'm concerned, it has judged his ability to run a massive international community and gallery site very poorly. Perhaps we're missing the full story here? But if so, it's up to them to clarify our many concerns and doubts, not just expect us to kiss their asses and assume everything will be fine when evidence and past behavior has shown that it isn't. What makes us believe that Yak will suddenly do things properly?


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## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

SkieFire said:


> I frogblasted the ventcore. Sorry.



ARGH! Dammit! No wonders why the two drives failed and everything backed up.  

Yak needs to stop pussyfooting around, clean out the quackjibber valves, swap in a slimegel pack, start up the transfabulator again, and _DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS THIS TIME!!!_


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Loki's Right Hand said:


> OMG. Seven days. Woooooooow. We've been without FA for longer and survived. Does no one remember the three month downtime in 2010? We had less information and updates then. Y'know, when the colo building _burned down. _
> 
> And yeah- they totally can help slow data transfer. I have a high end computer I built myself, and backing stuff up can take minutes or sometimes days, despite the fact that in perfect conditions, it should take mere seconds. Is that my fault? Maybe. But most likely, it's just the computer being what it is-- a machine that will randomly bottleneck on stuff and you never know _what. _
> 
> Never mind they said that weather was a factor. That, I'm afraid, is not something within FA's power to control.



It wasn't three months, it was just over one month. It also shouldn't take that long to migrate what amounts to probably a few terabytes from one server to another. Why not have a backup server running concurrently (considering that they have about ten servers but only two of them were running as far as I know, and they weren't mirrored)? Why not have extra hard drives on site in case of a failure? And I don't want to hear about money, they received a TON of donations just this year for brand new equipment, but this has clearly shown that hardware wasn't really the problem. Also, where did they say that weather was a factor? Why aren't they at least updating the status a bit more often? The reason it's upsetting is because we've gotten so little actual communication from anyone working on the solution. Friday was spent mostly waiting for the new hard drives to come in, so why couldn't they have explained everything then? Why isn't anyone monitoring problems with the site to make sure that database clogging doesn't happen? Where is Yak during all of this? Why would it be so hard to get information and updates in any case, even if a building burned down, or god forbid some personal tragedy happened?

There are a lot of disturbing unanswered questions here, and to trivialize them just comes across as mindless white knight behavior and is insulting to my intelligence. Yes, the site has been down for longer, but that doesn't mean we should just put up with it, especially when a lot of artists depend on the site running to make a living (and, yes, they have donated, so I don't want to hear this THE SITE IS FREE crap, either). Just because you clearly don't need the site very much doesn't mean that others don't. Please try to have a little more compassion.


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## Tailmon1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Posts big note:

*Please do not Beat up the Mods over this! They have no control over the updates!*

That said I'm glad that perhaps tonight the FA site will be up. I had pegged it to be down
a good week. The timing could not have been worse but Meh! Shyt happens!


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## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

Tailmon1 said:


> Posts big note:
> 
> *Please do not Beat up the Mods over this! They have no control over the updates!*
> 
> ...


The mods aren't being beaten up about it. Users have explicitly stated that they're not blaming them but rather want answers from the horses' mouth

...so to speak.

Honestly I think people are just getting way too worked up about it. 
the bright sides
You can still browse FA
Coming to FAF you can make more friends and possibly gain new watchers and meet more artists

C'mon guys. Optimism can't hurt. Jesus.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Tailmon1 said:


> Posts big note:
> 
> *Please do not Beat up the Mods over this! They have no control over the updates!*
> 
> ...



100% agreed. You guys are awesome and deserve more respect. I really hope that you start getting treated a lot better especially since you're just the messengers and had absolutely nothing to do with this mess. C'mon, I've expressed my extreme dissatisfaction with everything going on, but even then I've known not to lay blame on every single solitary person associated with the site! Also, forum mods AREN'T necessarily site mods, and even site mods are not site admins/staff! It's good to channel anger, but do so in a productive manner. 

EDIT: Fixed the part where I said "forum mods are necessarily..." when I clearly meant that they AREN'T, because most forum mods are just regular users of FA like the rest of us.


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## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

Loki's Right Hand said:


> OMG. Seven days. Woooooooow. We've been without FA for longer and survived. Does no one remember the three month downtime in 2010? We had less information and updates then. Y'know, when the colo building _burned down. _
> 
> And yeah- they totally can help slow data transfer. I have a high end computer I built myself, and backing stuff up can take minutes or sometimes days, despite the fact that in perfect conditions, it should take mere seconds. Is that my fault? Maybe. But most likely, it's just the computer being what it is-- a machine that will randomly bottleneck on stuff and you never know _what. _
> 
> Never mind they said that weather was a factor. That, I'm afraid, is not something within FA's power to control.


Basically this. But of course we can use this as a reason to constantly piss and moan about anything and everything. Because somehow that'll make changes happen faster.


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## Kalmor (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Also, forum mods are*n't* necessarily site mods, and even site mods are not site admins/staff! It's good to channel anger, but do so in a productive manner.


FTFY (though I know I think it was already a typo). I don't have higher level permissions on my FA account than a normal user.

Now back to trying to find out what's up.


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## DarrylWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

It will be ready by tonight! Awesome sauce!


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Willow said:


> Basically this. But of course we can use this as a reason to constantly piss and moan about anything and everything. Because somehow that'll make changes happen faster.



But we've had countless programmers and designers come to explain why this problem was completely avoidable and should have been foreseen, and we get almost no communication from those in charge. Yes, there's no way for things to go much faster right this moment, but I believe we customers of the site have the right to expect more open communication and for suggestions to actually be listened to. That's the main problem I have, not just pissing and moaning, but actually asking for and suggesting that decent changes be made!


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## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> But we've had countless programmers and designers come to explain why this problem was completely avoidable and should have been foreseen, and we get almost no communication from those in charge. Yes, there's no way for things to go much faster right this moment, but I believe we customers of the site have the right to expect more open communication and for suggestions to actually be listened to. That's the main problem I have, not just pissing and moaning, but actually asking for and suggesting that decent changes be made!



Yeah but that's fine. It's fine to want these things and to point out how problems could be avoided. I'm talking more about the people who constantly berate site and staff for this. It's actually pretty counterproductive.

Input and constructive criticism are good. Insults are not.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> It will be ready by tonight! Awesome sauce!



I'll believe it when I see it.  More likely, tonight will come and go, and the site still won't be up, and we won't get any word as to WHY it's not up.  (Except perhaps, "Oh, it took longer than we expected.")  Not to rain on the parade here, but that seems to be the pattern we've established here.  And this isn't directed at the mods or even at Dragoneer - I realize they can only wait along with the rest of us.  But if tonight comes and the site still isn't up, then someone needs to say, "Sorry the site's not up yet, but here's what's going on."  And they need to set an expectation and say, "We couldn't get it up and running tonight, but we'll try to have it going at X time, and if we can't we'll update you again then."

We can be patient while we wait for FA to come back online.  Griping about it being offline/read-only serves little purpose; it'll be ready when it's ready.  But what we SHOULDN'T have to put up with is having to pull teeth just to get word, even if that word is "We don't know anything new yet, but we'll keep you informed."  This is the first substantive update in almost three days.  That's unacceptable.  (Again - not directing that at the mods or at 'Neer.  I'm sure they're just as frustrated as the rest of us - probably more so, since they're having to take people's abuse over it.)


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## StormyChang (Dec 15, 2013)

so, by tonight you mean tuesday, right?


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## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> I'll believe it when I see it.  More likely, tonight will come and go, and the site still won't be up, and we won't get any word as to WHY it's not up.  (Except perhaps, "Oh, it took longer than we expected.")  Not to rain on the parade here, but that seems to be the pattern we've established here.  And this isn't directed at the mods or even at Dragoneer - I realize they can only wait along with the rest of us.  But if tonight comes and the site still isn't up, then someone needs to say, "Sorry the site's not up yet, but here's what's going on."  And they need to set an expectation and say, "We couldn't get it up and running tonight, but we'll try to have it going at X time, and if we can't we'll update you again then."
> 
> We can be patient while we wait for FA to come back online.  Griping about it being offline/read-only serves little purpose; it'll be ready when it's ready.  But what we SHOULDN'T have to put up with is having to pull teeth just to get word, even if that word is "We don't know anything new yet, but we'll keep you informed."  This is the first substantive update in almost three days.  That's unacceptable.  (Again - not directing that at the mods or at 'Neer.  I'm sure they're just as frustrated as the rest of us - probably more so, since they're having to take people's abuse over it.)



Pretty much this. People don't even seem to be upset over the fact that the site is down, rather we've been given an ETA multiple times and it's gone and passed with still no update aside from "we don't know." hours later. If everyone was given more information, then there would be less fussing.


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## Shaon the Kozo (Dec 15, 2013)

Is everyone ignoring the fact that the site's own OWNER is in the dark about this? Something is terribly, horribly wrong about this whole system if even the owner of the site has no idea what's going on. Again, like everyone else, not shooting the messengers, but this is a HUGE red flag about how this site is being handled and run.


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> Pretty much this. People don't even seem to be upset over the fact that the site is down, rather we've been given an ETA multiple times and it's gone and passed with still no update aside from "we don't know." hours later. If everyone was given more information, then there would be less fussing.



We haven't been given an ETA until NOW, and Dragoneer has explicitly stated that he doesn't want to give one until he knows. They got the drives on Saturday, but data was still being transferred.


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## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> We haven't been given an ETA until NOW, and Dragoneer has explicitly stated that he doesn't want to give one until he knows. They got the drives on Saturday, but data was still being transferred.



We've been told that they had hoped to get the site up Saturday on the 12/13/13 update. There is a difference between "hope" and "promise", yes, but that's still an ETA. It's now Sunday and we're given an ETA of tonight.


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## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

StormyChang said:


> so, by tonight you mean tuesday, right?



Probably next February.


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## Haystack (Dec 15, 2013)

thanks for the update!  I hope things will go smoothly from here. :3


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> We haven't been given an ETA until NOW, and Dragoneer has explicitly stated that he doesn't want to give one until he knows. They got the drives on Saturday, but data was still being transferred.



There's a big difference between "Explicitly stating an ETA" and "Saying practically nothing at all."  We don't NEED 'Neer to give us a set-in-stone "the site will be up at 8:30 PM" or anything like that.  All we want is to not be kept _completely_ in the dark.  Like I said - even the occasional "we still don't know anything new" would be better than three days of (practically) silence.  Just for the reassurance that things ARE being done.  Yeah, deep inside, we all know that they're not just ignoring the problem - but we furries can be a finicky bunch, and we just need to be petted and comforted - and more than that, it makes us feel like we, the community, really do matter.


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## Chazykins (Dec 15, 2013)

The data is still processing even though it was 86% two days ago. And the hard drive hasn't even been installed yet. So the site being up tonight is a slim chance. I don't believe it. But I do believe theres something else going on and no one is giving us a straight forward answer. All they have been giving us is false hope with the "Its almost complete "  Lol I might not even be making sense. But I wish they or Yak would give us a better insight on whats going on. -shrugs-


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## Havick (Dec 15, 2013)

keep go with good work hope come on really soon miss website the only one who got good community and popular from furries


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

Don't know why people complain about FA's maintenance periods. Are they that desperate to get back onto the site to resume their "free art raffle" journal spam?


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> I've seen it happen enough times where if someone messes up badly enough, they simply stay quiet about everything that happened. Want a recent example? When have we heard anything from Belic/K'gra on the entire FurFright issue?



Oooh! Oooh! Me! Me! Call on me!!

I used to work Technical Support for a DSL service. The service made the HORRIBLE mistake of making Technical Support the go-to department when someone's installation date has slipped.

Yeah, that's right, they make customers call someone who is not responsible for setting the date, is not responsible for achieving the date, and can do nothing to affect the date. In fact, the department who *IS* responsible for setting the date, sales, doesn't take customer calls except to sell them more. The department that is responsible for installation doesn't take customer calls, because the union doesn't want to have to deal with customers, and customers simply CAN'T change their installation date. Period. But Tech Support? We get to have our ears chewed off by customers who have been waiting a week for installation, have taken off from work to be home for installation on three occassions, and the workers who actually DO the installation decide not to show up, and don't have to suffer the consequences of that decision. And the company sees no problem with making someone who can do nothing about it act as a firewall for complaints.

I did not stay very long in that department. I refuse to be made a whipping boy.


----------



## rjbartrop (Dec 15, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> Pretty much this. People don't even seem to be upset over the fact that the site is down, rather we've been given an ETA multiple times and it's gone and passed with still no update aside from "we don't know." hours later. If everyone was given more information, then there would be less fussing.



Oh, I think people have made their opinions pretty clear on this.  It's also pretty clear that it's not going to affect the pace of repair in the slightest.   Getting angry about things that are out of your control is a waste of energy.


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Don't know why people complain about FA's maintenance periods. Are they that desperate to get back onto the site to resume their "free art raffle" journal spam?



You, apparently, are not an artist who is responsible for artwork that needs to be delivered by Christmas.



rjbartrop said:


> Oh, I think people have made their opinions pretty clear on this.  It's also pretty clear that it's not going to affect the pace of repair in the slightest.   Getting angry about things that are out of your control is a waste of energy.



Not if it catches the ear of someone who *is* in control.


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## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> You, apparently, are not an artist who is responsible for artwork that needs to be delivered by Christmas.



Then you get a person's spare contacts (AIM, Skype, Steam, Facebook, email). You know FA is a shitty lazily program, garbage website. It has not changed in nearly 10 years and it will not change ever. So knowing this people would do wise to give misc contact information. 

Can we stop using this excuse now?


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## PraeUni (Dec 15, 2013)

Lets be patient, it is a big ask, we get updates and people say it is a conspiracy...nope, it is just how a computer system is, nothing is as simple as it seems.


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> You, apparently, are not an artist who is responsible for artwork that needs to be delivered by Christmas.



Then you contact them a different way. You can still browse FA profiles. It's not rocket science.


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## rjbartrop (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Not if it catches the ear of someone who *is* in control.



Looking at the pages and pages devoted to this, I think we can safely say that their ear has been caught.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Don't know why people complain about FA's maintenance periods. Are they that desperate to get back onto the site to resume their "free art raffle" journal spam?



Really? You're creating a whole new account just to white knight the problem? Life isn't about DEFENDING FA, either. 




PraeUni said:


> Lets be patient, it is a big ask, we get updates and people say it is a conspiracy...nope, it is just how a computer system is, nothing is as simple as it seems.



Maybe if they actually gave us more specific information about the problems and updated more than once a day, then it wouldn't seem like such a conspiracy. As it stands right now, Dragoneer has been unusually silent for almost 24 hours, and Yak (who's sole responsibility this whole mess is) hasn't said anything at all since the original outage on the 10th. The problem is that we HAVEN'T gotten reasonable updates, though to be fair I don't think people should be complaining about how slow it's going, that probably can't be helped. What CAN be helped is making sure this won't happen in the future, though sadly I believe it will.


----------



## Kaeko (Dec 15, 2013)

Machines will never be perfect. That's why we set ourselves up for failure by believing technology will last forever.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> Then you get a person's spare contacts (AIM, Skype, Steam, Facebook, email). You know FA is a shitty lazily program, garbage website. It has not changed in nearly 10 years and it will not change ever. So knowing this people would do wise to give misc contact information.
> 
> Can we stop using this excuse now?



No.  We can't stop using it as an excuse, because it's being dismissed as "an excuse".  Yes, I have a lot of my furry contacts on Skype, but it's not always about contacting specific people - it's about driving business, making journals, getting people to NOTICE you so that you can get commissions.  And the fact of the matter is, that CANNOT HAPPEN when the site is in read-only mode, especially right before Christmas.  Quotes like this are the exact reason that stuff doesn't change - that's the sort of mindset that caused this problem in the first place.  "Oh, there are other methods of contact, so it's no big deal."  To a lot of people, it IS a big deal because it's not just about communicating with your contacts.  Often, it's about - again - driving business and promoting yourself.  If we had KNOWN that the site was going to go down for over a week, we would have taken steps to prepare for the outage and start setting up shop elsewhere to get through it.  But because this was an unplanned outage, that wasn't an option.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  And as soon as the site comes back online I (and I'm sure many others) plan to post a journal telling people where they can find me and contact me if this happens again in the future.  But acting like we're "making excuses" is the exact reason nothing ever changes.


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> Then you get a person's spare contacts (AIM, Skype, Steam, Facebook, email). You know FA is a shitty lazily program, garbage website. It has not changed in nearly 10 years and it will not change ever. So knowing this people would do wise to give misc contact information.
> 
> Can we stop using this excuse now?



Well, this is good advice NOW, and I'm sure many will take it under advisement.

But seriously, when was the last time that FA was down this long unexpectedly? I can tell you when. November-December 2009, four years ago. If for four years you have been doing business primarily through FA and their note system, having alternate means of communication seems a bit moot, and many patrons don't provide them, even when asked, so after a while, an artist stops asking.

Then this happens, and they are left in the lurch. No, they can't stop making that excuse.


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Really? You're creating a whole new account just to white knight the problem? Life isn't about DEFENDING FA, either.



Who says I'm defending FA? Now you're just making false assumptions.
The thing is, everyone has their hands stuck too far up their rears, whining about a site that's FREE, maintained by a few furry volunteers.

Whining won't make things go faster.


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## Ash-Fox (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Yes, there's no way for things to go much faster right this moment, but I believe we customers of the site have the right to expect more open communication and for suggestions to actually be listened to.


As customers of the website, how many people does the money of the customers in question employ to work on the site full time and do overtime, especially on days like weekends and Holidays?


Shaon the Kozo said:


> Is everyone ignoring the fact that the site's own OWNER is in the dark about this? Something is terribly, horribly wrong about this whole system if even the owner of the site has no idea what's going on. Again, like everyone else, not shooting the messengers, but this is a HUGE red flag about how this site is being handled and run.


Sounds like you know all about this sort of thing, especially in terms of management. Could you please explain to me how you would manage volunteer staff to estimate the time it would take accurately to resolve an issue similar to this and what are the common pitfalls to the 'bad' estimations we have seen in the past? What sort of development methodology would you use to keep things running smoothly? Waterfall? Spiral? Rapid? etc. What type of testing methodology/strategy would be best suited for you preferred development methodology for such a project?


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

If you're only relying on FurAffinity to drive your business, then you're doing it 101% wrong. You're meant to get yourself out there on as many art-type websites as possible.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Who says I'm defending FA? Now you're just making false assumptions.
> The thing is, everyone has their hands stuck too far up their rears, whining about a site that's FREE, maintained by a few furry volunteers.
> 
> Whining won't make things go faster.


I agree, the site won't return faster by whining. But I'm not whining, I'm trying to give good constructive criticism that could help the problem not happen in the future. And even if my words fall on deaf ears, at least some people can read what I wrote and together the people who have good ideas and know how to implement them will be able to get something good accomplished. Ergo, I don't think my time is being wasted. 

And I hate hearing that "free site" excuse. Please, Google is free, same with YouTube, eBay, etc. Yet just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept unnecessary outages and be okay with the status quo of the people who actually are in control of the site when they're not doing their end of the deal. We are still their customers, but they seem to forget this. Running a furry website should not be a popularity contest.

Oh yeah, and speaking of volunteers, there have been DOZENS of people offering to rewrite the code and add features, who are PROFESSIONALS, and they're offering it FOR FREE, but it's always ignored. So that's not a good excuse, either.


----------



## Caerulus (Dec 15, 2013)

I'd like to preface this by saying that I do honestly appreciate the efforts that have been made by members of the staff to keep us updated, even when said members themselves are in the dark. I don't know who the weak link in the chain is, nor am I going to try to claim I do know. But regardless, my two cents on the whole situation...

In large part I feel the frustration here is that even if we have not _actually _been given ETA after ETA, it certainly _feels _like we have.

Saying the data migration is X% done is not an ETA on a complete fix. Nor is saying when the replacement drives are coming in an ETA either. However, for many users, giving these sort of estimates leaves out the answer to a very important question: "Then what?"

Most users, seeing no further information, will assume the answer is "...then it's fixed, right?"

Saying just how long it's going to take before the next step is complete fails to meaningfully express to the user that each step is just one of several. And even if a user is tech-savvy enough to understand there must be more steps involved, it still provides few hints at how many more steps are left, what they might be, and how long they'll take.

It's entirely understandable to not want to give an ETA, but if users are to be kept calm, estimates need to be given. Surely the FA team isn't diving into this completely blind and unaware. They have a plan of attack. Detail it.

"There's been a malfunction with one of the hard drives. We'll need to purchase more. With rush order delivery, they should be here in 1 to 2 days. Next we'll need to migrate data over. We estimate migration to take anywhere from X to Y days. Once migrated, we will have to..."

...you get the idea. Provide the users the full plan of attack, reasonable best and worst case scenarios for each step, and give regular updates along the way. "Data migration is X% complete, estimated to be 100% complete in Y hours. We'll update again in Z hours." Likewise, if there are any unexpected snags, update the users as soon as they're known.

As a software developer, I completely understand how frustrating it can be to need to step away from a problem to provide play-by-play updates to users; there's always that nagging feeling of "This is broken, and every second I spend not fixing it is another second it's not fixed!" But as someone who has also done Public Relations, the more open, honest, and forward you are with users, the more understanding and supportive those users will be.


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## Kalmor (Dec 15, 2013)

Guys can we seriously have one of these threads without biting each-other's heads off?


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## Ash-Fox (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> And I hate hearing that "free site" excuse. Please, Google is free, same with YouTube, eBay, etc. Yet just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept unnecessary outages and be okay with the status quo of the people who actually are in control of the site when they're not doing their end of the deal. We are still their customers, but they seem to forget this.


So, what money are they profiting off exactly from your visits? Clearly if you're a very valued customers, your patronage to the website should result in helping pay the salaries of people to work on the site full time and not be anything like an out of pocket expense just like Google, YouTube, eBay etc.


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## octonnibal (Dec 15, 2013)

i was curious though, when fa does come back up- wont the flood of submissions cause the site to just go down again?


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## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> If you're only relying on FurAffinity to drive your business, then you're doing it 101% wrong. You're meant to get yourself out there on as many art-type websites as possible.



1) Many refuse to do business on Inkbunny. I don't think I need to tell you why.

2) DA does not do music files, so that's out for musicians.

3) SoFurry is as unreliable as FA.

4) Weasyl is brand new, effectively, and their userbase is a fraction of FA's.

Now, what were you saying again?


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## Soul_Wesson (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Guys can we seriously have one of these threads without biting each-other's heads off?



Sadly, I do not think it's possible. There are people (Like myself) who are devoted to this site, and are angry that it is not back up. Not that I usually partake in jumping in and replying to people, I just love to read and read and bitch to myself. THEN you have people who have already had a base plan set up somewhere else and usually come to fA as a second base, or do not really use it for more than social activities and the like.

You got your diehard fanatics in one corner, and you got your casual browsers in the other, and any time anything these two parties have differing opinions on pops up, you're sure to have someone trying to bash another person's skull in.

Personally, I just set up alternate accounts on SF, dA, and Weasyl, though I have had the last two a little longer than my SF, so now, when the site comes back, I can give everyone a heads up on where they can find me.

Sad to say, Raptros, but, welcome to human nature.


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I agree, the site won't return faster by whining. But I'm not whining, I'm trying to give good constructive criticism that could help the problem not happen in the future. And even if my words fall on deaf ears, at least some people can read what I wrote and together the people who have good ideas and know how to implement them will be able to get something good accomplished. Ergo, I don't think my time is being wasted.



"that *could* help the problem" - meaning your constructive criticism won't be failproof 100% of the time.



Duraji said:


> And I hate hearing that "free site" excuse. Please, Google is free, same with YouTube, eBay, etc. Yet just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept unnecessary outages and be okay with the status quo of the people who actually are in control of the site when they're not doing their end of the deal. We are still their customers, but they seem to forget this. Running a furry website should not be a popularity contest.



It's still a free site run by *volunteers*, meaning people who might have actual jobs they have to attend to rather than fiddle with some website that only 500,000+ people use.



Duraji said:


> Oh yeah, and speaking of volunteers, there have been DOZENS of people offering to rewrite the code and add features, who are PROFESSIONALS, and they're offering it FOR FREE, but it's always ignored. So that's not a good excuse, either.



I wish I knew why this hasn't been considered, but I can only assume protecting their rights of the code behind it. Any fur could just take the code and start up their own clone of FA.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> If you're only relying on FurAffinity to drive your business, then you're doing it 101% wrong. You're meant to get yourself out there on as many art-type websites as possible.



Again, it's easy to say that NOW.  I didn't start off on FA with the intention of becoming a commissioned artist - I started here probably a lot like most people: I liked looking at furry artwork and I enjoyed creating it, too.  However, as I created more art and gained more followers, I began to do requests for people.  Eventually the requests became so numerous that I couldn't handle them all, so I started taking fewer requests and instead offered fairly inexpensive commissions.  

I didn't have any grand business plan when I started on FA, and really I still don't.  I'm not depending on my art for my main source of income, but I know there are a lot of artists who DO, and because FA is the largest site in the furry fandom, FA being offline/read-only does hurt them a lot - even if they have a meaningful presence on SoFurry/Tumblr/etc.  A lot of people have suggested InkBunny, too - personally, I avoid IB like the plague because it's a dark, terrifying hole full of cub porn and other stuff that I just don't want to be associated with.  I'm sure a lot of people are reluctant to go near IB because they don't want to be implicated in some way when Interpol finally shuts that place down.  Weasyl and SoFurry are nice (I'm on SoFurry), but the fact is that they don't generate the same traffic as FA does.

Yeah, maybe we make a mistake by relying so much on FA, but when you just callously dismiss the fact that it does happen, it makes you look like a twerp.

Tempers are all running a little high here.  We're all ready for the site to be back online for various reasons, and the best we can do is be patient - I personally am not asking them to move any faster than they can.  I would rather see it done RIGHT than done FAST.  All I'm asking (which I know, I know it's gonna basically go ignored) is that they do a better job updating us about progress.


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## Williamca (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> 1) Many refuse to do business on Inkbunny. I don't think I need to tell you why.
> 
> 2) DA does not do music files, so that's out for musicians.
> 
> ...



Don't forget Weasyl attempted to claim it didn't advertise itself as a "furry" artcentric website but instead something else. Along with the forced collections at first which effectively ran off a lot of commissioners whom like to repost their stuff.


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## Slither (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Guys can we seriously have one of these threads without biting each-other's heads off?



For what it's worth, I appreciate you guys.  <3  I'll be looking forward to when FA is back online and I can go back to sharing art and such, whenever that may be.


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## Mazz (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Guys can we seriously have one of these threads without biting each-other's heads off?



Obviously they can not. It's why I suggested in a previous thread to just keep the updates in the Site Status forum and not in this section. 
It would be better off just to lock all these threads where people are just repeating the same insults and half truths. 
The behavior of so many of these people is just horrible.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Ash-Fox said:


> So, what money are they profiting off exactly from your visits? Clearly if you're a very valued customers, your patronage to the website should result in helping pay the salaries of people to work on the site full time and not be anything like an out of pocket expense just like Google, YouTube, eBay etc.



I'm not sure I like your condescending tone, it's coming across as much more of a sarcastic attack than making a valid point.

The point is that saying a site is free doesn't mean the folks who run it are immune to criticism. I assume that you're friends with them and probably think I'm attacking them, but I'm really not. I'm IRL friends with Dragoneer and would never attack him because I know that he cares about this site just as much or more than anybody else. However, there are serious problems going on with the coding, there are serious problems with making promises that are never fulfilled, and there is serious evidence of severe nepotism going on behind the scenes.

For the record, I have donated in the past. I also commission artists that pay for ad banners. The site shouldn't be for-profit, though. Look at sites such as Inkbunny, Sofurry, and Weasyl, they seem to be doing just fine running on volunteers. Then look at larger sites like DeviantArt. They don't directly profit off of every visitor, but they have no problem having good volunteer staff and some actual employees, too. You also ignored my whole point about many MANY volunteers coming forth offering to do all of this stuff FOR FREE even though they are normally professionals, and always being turned down, probably because Yak wouldn't approve.

I know you're probably just playing devil's advocate, but you seem to be completely unwilling to see my and hundreds of others' perspectives on this.


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> 1) Many refuse to do business on Inkbunny. I don't think I need to tell you why.
> 
> 2) DA does not do music files, so that's out for musicians.
> 
> ...



Lol, people actually buy music from furs.

Inkbunny has the option to filter keywords you might not want to see. It's not rocket science to go click-click-typetypetype-click-done.
For DA, consider using Soundcloud more often.
For Weasyl, you might as well get promoting yourself as much as you can. Surely someone will actually buy something from ya.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Inkbunny has the option to filter keywords you might not want to see. It's not rocket science to go click-click-typetypetype-click-done.



Again - it's not that WE don't want to see that stuff (even though we don't - or I don't, anyway).  It's that we don't want to be associated with a website that HOSTS that stuff.


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## Kalmor (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Lol, people actually buy music from furs.


Can confirm. :/


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## Crocdragon (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Inkbunny has the option to filter keywords you might not want to see. It's not rocket science to go click-click-typetypetype-click-done.



Yes, it does, however that feature is useless when people don't properly tag their stuff.


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

heh. i love you gais


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> heh. i love you gais



We love you too ^^


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Again - it's not that WE don't want to see that stuff (even though we don't - or I don't, anyway).  It's that we don't want to be associated with a website that HOSTS that stuff.



Well, it's your loss at the end of the day. You chose not to use the site, so you accept the consequences.


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

Crocdragon said:


> Yes, it does, however that feature is useless when people don't properly tag their stuff.



Thats why viewers can add suggested keywords if it's missed out. And if you see cub porn not tagged as "cub", don't be a lazy git and add that keyword in. Only takes 3 seconds.


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## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Lol, people actually buy music from furs.



Why does being furry suddenly make someone's musical talent unworthy of compensation for their time?  So if we suddenly found out Eminem or Justin Timberlake were furry all their music would then be free right?  Because that's how your comment is sounding to me.


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## Ehrinlove (Dec 15, 2013)

don't feed the troll, if you ignore it eventually it will grow bored and try elsewhere 


on anouther note, I like most, are just annoyed it doesn't seem like were getting 100% the truth from the person in charge of this issue, not even Neer is and its maddening, really I just wanna know whats actually happening in the here and now, it shouldnt be to difficult for him to make a simple post


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## zachhart12 (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> It wasn't three months, it was just over one month. It also shouldn't take that long to migrate what amounts to probably a few terabytes from one server to another. Why not have a backup server running concurrently (considering that they have about ten servers but only two of them were running as far as I know, and they weren't mirrored)? Why not have extra hard drives on site in case of a failure? And I don't want to hear about money, they received a TON of donations just this year for brand new equipment, but this has clearly shown that hardware wasn't really the problem. Also, where did they say that weather was a factor? Why aren't they at least updating the status a bit more often? The reason it's upsetting is because we've gotten so little actual communication from anyone working on the solution. Friday was spent mostly waiting for the new hard drives to come in, so why couldn't they have explained everything then? Why isn't anyone monitoring problems with the site to make sure that database clogging doesn't happen? Where is Yak during all of this? Why would it be so hard to get information and updates in any case, even if a building burned down, or god forbid some personal tragedy happened?
> 
> There are a lot of disturbing unanswered questions here, and to trivialize them just comes across as mindless white knight behavior and is insulting to my intelligence. Yes, the site has been down for longer, but that doesn't mean we should just put up with it, especially when a lot of artists depend on the site running to make a living (and, yes, they have donated, so I don't want to hear this THE SITE IS FREE crap, either). Just because you clearly don't need the site very much doesn't mean that others don't. Please try to have a little more compassion.



Was just thinking of this yesterday.  Why don't they have SPARE HARD DRIVES LYING AROUND if they are running the largest furry artwork site in the world?  My god!


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Well, it's your loss at the end of the day. You chose not to use the site, so you accept the consequences.



Yeah, I realize that.  But what you don't seem to get is that you're making this out like it's "no big deal" when FA goes down - the simple fact is that it IS a big deal to a LOT of people, for a lot of different reasons.  Now we can go back and forth and debate whether it SHOULD be a big deal or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 15, 2013)

Raptros said:


> When we're all in the dark (including 'neer apparently), there's nothing we can do. Minty and I can only post updates we've been told to post, and we haven't been told anything more yet other than what is stated in the OP. I'll keep prodding them.



*Why is everyone okay with this, again?*

When the site owner, the forum administrators, and everyone on the site's administration team don't even know what's going on, I figure this of all things needs to be rectified. 

You can't have things work this way, and expect things to be peachy-keen. 
One man holds FA By the balls, and all the others can do is put their faith in this enigmatic individual, with only the slightest clue of what's really going on.


----------



## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Yeah, I realize that.  But what you don't seem to get is that you're making this out like it's "no big deal" when FA goes down - the simple fact is that it IS a big deal to a LOT of people, for a lot of different reasons.  Now we can go back and forth and debate whether it SHOULD be a big deal or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS.



Oh well, it's only been down a week anyway. I'm sure a majority of those artists are already behind on commissions that were meant to be completed probably months ago. Why? "Oh, I had things come up." Bullshit. Maybe they should've used that time to catchup on the overdue art.


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## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

Ehrinlove said:


> don't feed the troll, if you ignore it eventually it will grow bored and try elsewhere



Sorry, you're right. The comment on music just really stuck in my gob. Art comes in all forms.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

Crocdragon said:


> Yes, it does, however that feature is useless when people don't properly tag their stuff.



I just ban submissions from people who do this. Fuck them.
If they're too incompetent to properly tag stuff, chances are they aren't very good at drawing.


----------



## DarkOverord (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> It's still a free site run by *volunteers*, meaning people who might have actual jobs they have to attend to rather than fiddle with some website that only 500,000+ people use.


This here actually shows that perhaps this model of running a site no-longer works. 500,000+ people is quite a lot of people if you didn't know? I hope you realise there are _countries _smaller than FA's userbase, no?

If a large site that gets a fair bit of traffic is too much hassle because of other commitments, then much like deviantART before it, FA clearly needs to consider that this voluntary program isn't going to work in the long term. Given how iffy FA has been the past year, major outages or not, it's becoming clear FA needs dedicated coders. Hell, there are smaller sites with dedicated staff.

And by dedicated I mean a wage, before anyone thinks I'm implying FA's staff are lazy.





> I wish I knew why this hasn't been considered, but I can only assume protecting their rights of the code behind it. Any fur could just take the code and start up their own clone of FA.



I'd call anyone who nabs FA's code to make a clone a fool myself. While FA's "competitors" may be a lot smaller, from a structure standpoint, a lot leave FA in the dust.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Oh well, it's only been down a week anyway. I'm sure a majority of those artists are already behind on commissions that were meant to be completed probably months ago. Why? "Oh, I had things come up." Bullshit. Maybe they should've used that time to catchup on the overdue art.



And some of us have.  But sometimes artists have to be able to contact their commissioners for additional details, character refs, what have you.  And often, notes on FA are the only way for us to do that because our contacts are unable/unwilling to give alternate methods of contact - again, we can argue whether it SHOULD be that way or not, but that's how it IS.


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Crocdragon said:


> Yes, it does, however that feature is useless when people don't properly tag their stuff.



Very true, but fortunately Inkbunny lets you suggest your own tags, and they are considered valid unless they're denied. And if they're denied when they should be valid enough, the admins will take actions necessary against the user. I understand people being uncomfortable with allowing cub art, but I'm more happy that they allow for a lot of options and have an extremely competently designed interface with a ton of amazing features. I really want FurAffinity to succeed, but they need to be competitive if they wish to remain the best, rather than spiral out of control and burn up like the biggest sites before them.



LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Oh well, it's only been down a week anyway. I'm sure a majority of those artists are already behind on commissions that were meant to be completed probably months ago. Why? "Oh, I had things come up." Bullshit. Maybe they should've used that time to catchup on the overdue art.



And on this subject I have to agree with you! If artists want to charge professional prices, they need to be... PROFESSIONAL! XD (but that is a rant for another day, specifically when we can put this bullshit behind us)


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## Crocdragon (Dec 15, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> I just ban submissions from people who do this. Fuck them.
> If they're too incompetent to properly tag stuff, chances are they aren't very good at drawing.



Ban as in block that user and their submissions from your view? If so, that's actually not a bad idea.


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## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> And some of us have.  But sometimes artists have to be able to contact their commissioners for additional details, character refs, what have you.  And often, notes on FA are the only way for us to do that because our contacts are unable/unwilling to give alternate methods of contact - again, we can argue whether it SHOULD be that way or not, but that's how it IS.



Then it's probably the artists at fault for not asking for an alternative contact address before starting the commission, should FA run into errors.


----------



## Ash-Fox (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I'm not sure I like your condescending tone, it's coming across as much more of a sarcastic attack than making a valid point.


Some of it maybe hostility I hold towards some abuse I have received in the past.



Duraji said:


> The point is that saying a site is free doesn't mean the folks who run it are immune to criticism.


Criticism surely isn't a problem, but when people try to compare the work of FurAffinity to a commercial website that is paying for full time employees and can afford to do so, or alternatively, comparing to smaller userbase/traffic websites that don't have to deal with the scalability problems that FurAffinity has, one does not see how this is warranted.



Duraji said:


> I assume that you're friends with them and probably think I'm attacking them, but I'm really not.


No, I run other projects (not even close to the size of FA, but there are a lot of vocal users and users of rival software) and have to remain silent when there is massive user complaints because of problems encountered or users will just latch on to every single word and twist it to mean something else, they will take any status update on a problem that isn't 'resolved' as an indication of failure and hyperbole it. I know first hand how the expectations and abuse of users can be quite demoralizing.

What I am doing here is pointing out the flaws in user expectations.



Duraji said:


> I'm IRL friends with Dragoneer and would never attack him because I know that he cares about this site just as much or more than anybody else.


I don't care.



Duraji said:


> However, there are serious problems going on with the coding, there are serious problems with making promises that are never fulfilled, and there is serious evidence of severe nepotism going on behind the scenes.


There are also serious problems with user expectations when the users are part of the problem. Do you think people feel like volunteering after doing their work hours, and probably having to do overtime (as is common these days) to work on the website when there is so much hostility against work being done? Do you think the fact that people aren't being paid to work full time on this site isn't a problem, what can the users do to deal with this?



Duraji said:


> For the record, I have donated in the past. I also commission artists that pay for ad banners.



I don't really see how this changes anything I have mentioned?



Duraji said:


> The site shouldn't be for-profit, though. Look at sites such as Inkbunny, Sofurry, and Weasyl, they seem to be doing just fine running on volunteers.


You are comparing FurAffinity, a website that has a massive user base and has to scale to websites that don't really do any scaling at all.



Duraji said:


> Then look at larger sites like DeviantArt. They don't directly profit off of every visitor, but they have no problem having good volunteer staff and some actual employees, too.


deviantArt (the 'd' is lowercase) makes money off prints, commisions, advertising, subscriptions and a whole slew of things and is a registered company (rather than a volunteer organisation). You will also note that deviantArt's volunteers don't deal with the website scalability or code.



Duraji said:


> You also ignored my whole point about many MANY volunteers coming forth offering to do all of this stuff FOR FREE even though they are normally professionals, and always being turned down, probably because Yak wouldn't approve.


I already responded about the literacy of technical users else where.



Duraji said:


> I know you're probably just playing devil's advocate, but you seem to be completely unwilling to see my and hundreds of others' perspectives on this.


I understand the perspective quite well, flawed expectations.


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## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

Crocdragon said:


> Ban as in block that user and their submissions from your view? If so, that's actually not a bad idea.



I just block their submissions, no need to a full ban unless I've been given a reason to. Usually, just blocking the submissions gets the job done.


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## shamus (Dec 15, 2013)

It will be up when it's up. thanks for letting us know the current status. ETA's are always rough guess one should never expect an ETA to be a hard line in he sand.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> And some of us have.  But sometimes artists have to be able to contact their commissioners for additional details, character refs, what have you.  And often, notes on FA are the only way for us to do that because our contacts are unable/unwilling to give alternate methods of contact - again, we can argue whether it SHOULD be that way or not, but that's how it IS.



That, and if anyone is encouraging people to use other methods of contact away from the site and completely count on those, or that they should "get over" how FA is because there are other sites that can also be used, isn't that just admitting that the site is unreliable? It's not a very satisfying answer to hear from the white knights, that's for sure.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Ash-Fox said:


> Some of it maybe hostility I hold towards some abuse I have received in the past.
> 
> I don't care.
> 
> I understand the perspective quite well, flawed expectations.



Are you for real? You make yourself out to seem like a victim, and then you're just completely rude to me when I was really trying to be nice and patient. I'm done responding to you, nothing I say will make any difference in your eyes anyway. So go ahead and think that I'm unreasonable or something, and then work on your ability to be introspective and seem like anything OTHER than a complete tool.

Apologies to the mods if this was out of line. I know tensions are high right now.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Then it's probably the artists at fault for not asking for an alternative contact address before starting the commission, should FA run into errors.



Well, in the day-to-day course of things with commissions, we don't think of "Oh, better get his e-mail just in case FA goes down" because we're usually too occupied ironing out the details of the commission and so forth.  You keep going on about how things SHOULD be while ignoring how things ARE.  And a lot of changes will be made after this outage - maybe the site itself won't undergo any meaningful change, but a lot of the artists will take steps to protect themselves if this happens again.  But that doesn't change how things currently are, and it seems like your sole reason for being here is to be dismissive of that fact.


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## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The last of the data is importing, and we'll be standing by to finish the upgrades. ETA should be tonight.
> 
> The FA staff wishes to deeply apologize for the time this is taking. It has taken far, far more time than was imagined.
> 
> Thanks for being patient.


It's fine. Don't worry about it Mentova; I've actually gained a great amount from the week. It has made me rediscover my joy of FAF.


----------



## LifeIsntAboutFA (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Well, in the day-to-day course of things with commissions, we don't think of "Oh, better get his e-mail just in case FA goes down" because we're usually too occupied ironing out the details of the commission and so forth.  You keep going on about how things SHOULD be while ignoring how things ARE.  And a lot of changes will be made after this outage - maybe the site itself won't undergo any meaningful change, but a lot of the artists will take steps to protect themselves if this happens again.  But that doesn't change how things currently are, and it seems like your sole reason for being here is to be dismissive of that fact.



I'm just here to give advice on how artists should be better prepared for FA downtime, when it happens occasionally. You'd think they'd know when to use alternative methods.


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## Crocdragon (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Thats why viewers can add suggested keywords if it's missed out. And if you see cub porn not tagged as "cub", don't be a lazy git and add that keyword in. Only takes 3 seconds.



This is true. I did forget about that feature.



Duraji said:


> Very true, but fortunately Inkbunny lets you suggest your own tags, and they are considered valid unless they're denied. And if they're denied when they should be valid enough, the admins will take actions necessary against the user. I understand people being uncomfortable with allowing cub art, but I'm more happy that they allow for a lot of options and have an extremely competently designed interface with a ton of amazing features. I really want FurAffinity to succeed, but they need to be competitive if they wish to remain the best, rather than spiral out of control and burn up like the biggest sites before them.



Also true. And I do appreciate that, yes. And as do I, however, it's gotten to the point that I only use FA because that's where most of my business is. I have other sites I frequent and post to just as much as FA, but the traffic is at FA. And that's the problem a lot of people who also use FA as their source of income face. This has been said before, but if everyone were to just pick up their stuff and move to either Weasyl, Inkbunny, or even DA(that's just an example) then there's no doubt many others would follow, myself included. Like you and others, I'd rather be on a more functioning site that also has a big population of possible clients.


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## o0Mithril0o (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm sorry for just bumping in with a random question here and if it is stated some place clearly; I'm just wondering if the people who run FA (moderators and coders) do this for free? Or do they get paid from some of the donations from ads etc? Not trying to stir anything up, and I'm sorry if it's not appropriate to ask about this, then you can just ignore my post


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## Blekarotva (Dec 15, 2013)

I've been following this threads since they start and all the coding talks make me wonder who is the real owner of the site.

I'll be waiting the site to be up tomorrow and just nuke all the "FA's back" journals.


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## Armaetus (Dec 15, 2013)

Call me pessimist, but I don't care if or when the site comes back online. I have better things to do than argue or bicker over a furry art site.


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## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

o0Mithril0o said:


> I'm sorry for just bumping in with a random question here and if it is stated some place clearly; I'm just wondering if the people who run FA (moderators and coders) do this for free? Or do they get paid from some of the donations from ads etc? Not trying to stir anything up, and I'm sorry if it's not appropriate to ask about this, then you can just ignore my post


iirc, staff are voluntary.



Glaice said:


> Call me pessimist, but I don't care if or when the site comes back online. I have better things to do than argue or bicker over a furry art site.


Welcome to my life.


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## Crocdragon (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Then it's probably the artists at fault for not asking for an alternative contact address before starting the commission, should FA run into errors.



In some cases, yes, but what Aliothfox is saying though is that SOME clients won't give up their contact information. Why? Could be various reasons, so that wouldn't be the artist's fault.


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## Radivel (Dec 15, 2013)

Glaice said:


> Call me pessimist, but I don't care if or when the site comes back online. I have better things to do than argue or bicker over a furry art site.



>.> Why gripe just convert to others and make people wake up. This is not the only site out there. 

Meh Im been sitting here reading this for fun. It is truly messed up. *bounces between open tabs of art sites*


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## Cocobanana (Dec 15, 2013)

Maybe FA should be down until Christmas so it'll be like a Christmas present to put it back up.


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## Soul_Wesson (Dec 15, 2013)

Cocobanana said:


> Maybe FA should be down until Christmas so it'll be like a Christmas present to put it back up.



Only if (as stated on twitter, I believe) it comes back with a brand new UI, and looks all pretty and shiny and shit! 8D


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## Accountability (Dec 15, 2013)

Loki's Right Hand said:


> OMG. Seven days. Woooooooow. We've been without FA for longer and survived. Does no one remember the three month downtime in 2010? We had less information and updates then. Y'know, when the colo building _burned down. _



This post made me come out of retirement. Whoever told you that the datacenter "burned down" is full of shit. The 2008 outage was a month long and was because FA neglected to replace hardware before it failed, instead choosing to talk about buying new servers and even trying to come up with ways to get people to donate for them. The _2009_ outages of note were caused by a lightning strike and the colo's generators not firing up, and a (still shady) "broken fiber optic cable". The latter lasted a week and people were kept well informed.

FA was hacked in 2010, and the fallout from that sure seemed to last for at least three months. Maybe that's what you were thinking of????

Sorry, but believe it or not, FA can be (and is often) at fault whenever it goes down. Yak is terrible at his job. Dragoneer should think about prioritizing spending money on new code and not a stupid mobile UI. They can't control the speed of data transfer, but they could have prevented the need to have to transfer servers entirely if they had better code, a better database structure, and better people doing all these things.

Rewarding mediocrity is not going to drive anyone to improve anything.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 15, 2013)

Cocobanana said:


> Maybe FA should be down until Christmas so it'll be like a Christmas present to put it back up.



To be fair, Christmas Day is probably the best time for it to go back up purely because there'll be less people praying on the site for a flood of users to bring it down again (This isn't an FA-centric issue before anyone calls me a pessimist. It's well known in a lot of sites, a huge flood of users brings downs sites )


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> I'm just here to give advice on how artists should be better prepared for FA downtime, when it happens occasionally. You'd think they'd know when to use alternative methods.



You have yet to give meaningful advice, though.  All you've done is say, in essence, "Wow, you artists are stupid for not having better foresight."  Well, thanks - this may surprise you, but a lot of us have already figured that out.  

"Well, a GOOD artist would establish alternate contact methods."  I've explained why that isn't always possible or practical.

"Well, a GOOD artist would set himself up on other sites."  Some of us have.  They don't get the same traffic or generate the same amount of business as FA.

If you're here to give advice, try doing it without putting artists down and prove that you're not just a white knight coming in here just to tell everyone to chill out (your username is going to make that difficult, by the way) - because that's how you're coming across right now.  We know there are things we could do better to be more successful, but the fact remains that it does legitimately hurt us - whether it SHOULD or not - when the site goes down, and you don't seem to understand that.


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## o0Mithril0o (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> iirc, staff are voluntary.
> 
> 
> Welcome to my life.



Ah, OK, thank you for the fast reply!

I hope things will sort itself out soon for the people working on this, good luck and thanks for spending your weekend on trying to fix this for us!


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Cocobanana said:


> Maybe FA should be down until Christmas so it'll be like a Christmas present to put it back up.


Your comment and icon made me smile. Thank you. :3


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## Wyebirdy (Dec 15, 2013)

Grand to see an update! It is a shame everything is taking so long, but I guess it cannot be helped right now. I'm positive the staff are doing the best they can under the circumstances. It's just a shame these updates are very few in number over the course of the days FA has been in 'Read Only Mode'. But I'll wait, just hope they can sort things out as soon as they can so business can carry on as usual :]


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## Ash-Fox (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Are you for real? You make yourself out to seem like a victim, and then you're just completely rude to me when I was really trying to be nice and patient.


I don't see anything I have written as rude:

- There was no vulgarity
- I wasn't passive aggressive
- I did not write anything off colour



Duraji said:


> I'm done responding to you, nothing I say will make any difference in your eyes anyway.


If your intent is to criticize with flawed expectations and convince me otherwise, then yes, you won't convince me. After all, I went through your list of communities and websites and compared them to FurAffinity's situation and provided valid reasons as to why the expectations were incorrect. Instead of actually coming up with a reasons why the comparisons were really correct (probably because you don't have one), you are trying to dismiss this under a cop out through the use of an ad hominem attack - I don't care if I am considered a demon, the counter points I raised are valid regardless and I would like to point everyone to those points rather than having everyone get caught up in "he's rude" type arguments.

So for everyone else. Let's go back to some of my original points that have been dismissed because I am "rude":

- There are also serious problems with user expectations when the users are part of the problem.
- Do you think people feel like volunteering after doing their work hours, and probably having to do overtime (as is common these days) to work on the website when there is so much hostility against work being done?
- Do you think the fact that people aren't being paid to work full time on this site isn't a problem, what can the users do to deal with this?
- You are comparing FurAffinity, a website that has a massive user base and has to scale to websites that don't really do any scaling at all.
- deviantArt (the 'd' is lowercase) makes money off prints, commisions, advertising, subscriptions and a whole slew of things and is a registered company (rather than a volunteer organisation). You will also note that deviantArt's volunteers don't deal with the website scalability or code.


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## Williamca (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> You have yet to give meaningful advice, though.  All you've done is say, in essence, "Wow, you artists are stupid for not having better foresight."  Well, thanks - this may surprise you, but a lot of us have already figured that out.
> 
> "Well, a GOOD artist would establish alternate contact methods."  I've explained why that isn't always possible or practical.
> 
> ...





""Well, a GOOD artist would establish alternate contact methods." I've explained why that isn't always possible or practical."
There's no reason it can't be. There's absolutely zero effort required to make a secondary gmail just for commissioners to contact. Along with for commissioners to make one just for commissions. I have done it. You can even add secondary emails to your paypal so that people recognize that it's from the same email that it was paid from. :I

Nobody is putting artists down, but they are trying to tell the artists and give them tips for the future. It's their choice to heed it or possibly fall into similar circumstances again.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Williamca said:


> ""Well, a GOOD artist would establish alternate contact methods." I've explained why that isn't always possible or practical."
> There's no reason it can't be. There's absolutely zero effort required to make a secondary gmail just for commissioners to contact. Along with for commissioners to make one just for commissions. I have done it. You can even add secondary emails to your paypal so that people recognize that it's from the same email that it was paid from. :I



Again - commissioners aren't always willing to communicate through e-mail.  I've learned from this outage that I'll need to have alternate contact methods.  That's not what bugs me - what bugs me is everyone going "chill out, it's no big deal" when actually, yeah, it kind of IS a big deal for a lot of people.


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Accountability said:


> This post made me come out of retirement. Whoever told you that the datacenter "burned down" is full of shit. The 2008 outage was a month long and was because FA neglected to replace hardware before it failed, instead choosing to talk about buying new servers and even trying to come up with ways to get people to donate for them. The _2009_ outages of note were caused by a lightning strike and the colo's generators not firing up, and a (still shady) "broken fiber optic cable". The latter lasted a week and people were kept well informed.
> 
> FA was hacked in 2010, and the fallout from that sure seemed to last for at least three months. Maybe that's what you were thinking of????
> 
> ...



How come there's no "this" button on your page? I agree with absolutely everything you wrote here, and that's with me still having utmost respect for 'neer. I just worry that he's in a "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" situation regarding Yak and the overall performance and look of the site. Clearly something much more complex than just saying "Dragoneer sucks" is going on, and I wish there was more transparency so something could be done to fix it.


----------



## Williamca (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Again - commissioners aren't always willing to communicate through e-mail.  I've learned from this outage that I'll need to have alternate contact methods.  That's not what bugs me - what bugs me is everyone going "chill out, it's no big deal" when actually, yeah, it kind of IS a big deal for a lot of people.




Now that I can agree with, I know a lot prefer notes despite how messy they can get. 

It could because they feel insecure about giving out their email, or they just worry they will miss something since maybe they check FA more.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Williamca said:


> Nobody is putting artists down, but they are trying to tell the artists and give them tips for the future. It's their choice to heed it or possibly fall into similar circumstances again.



And some of them are good suggestions that will definitely be heeded - I _know_ that I will be doing things differently after this.

It's the tone that bothers me.  Some of the users on here aren't giving these things like suggestions; they're taking on this tone of, "Gee, you're really dumb for not thinking of this beforehand.  Well, now I guess it sucks to be you, so just chill out because the site will be back up when it's back up."  And as I have (repeatedly) said, I know they can't go any faster than they are going.  I'm not even upset about the down time (well, I am, but no more than anyone else).  What I'm upset about is the fact that the people in charge aren't saying what's going on - or if they are, only very sporadically.


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## Williamca (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> And some of them are good suggestions that will definitely be heeded - I _know_ that I will be doing things differently after this.
> 
> It's the tone that bothers me.  Some of the users on here aren't giving these things like suggestions; they're taking on this tone of, "Gee, you're really dumb for not thinking of this beforehand.  Well, now I guess it sucks to be you, so just chill out because the site will be back up when it's back up."  And as I have (repeatedly) said, I know they can't go any faster than they are going.  I'm not even upset about the down time (well, I am, but no more than anyone else).  What I'm upset about is the fact that the people in charge aren't saying what's going on - or if they are, only very sporadically.




Yeah, I mean a lot of people use Trello (which is great for keeping track of commission progress I wholely recommend it to any artist who has trouble organizing!)

Along with setting up google document forms for commissions. That way you don't lose commission info. Well..if the files are hosted on FA and they link to FA urls when FA goes down then that could be problemsome. Main reason I keep a backup of my refs on dropbox just in case.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Williamca said:


> Main reason I keep a backup of my refs on dropbox just in case.



I friggin love dropbox.


----------



## Radivel (Dec 15, 2013)

>.> Though if all anyone is gonna do on this is gripe about the same thing over and over again from thread to thread. These things might as well be closed. Ya got an update and epeated the things that have been said day after day and starting sometimes new unneeded arguments isn't getting anyone anywhere or moving this along any faster.


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## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Radivel said:


> >.> Though if all anyone is gonna do on this is gripe about the same thing over and over again from thread to thread. These things might as well be closed. Ya got an update and epeated the things that have been said day after day and starting sometimes new unneeded arguments isn't getting anyone anywhere or moving this along any faster.



Consistent and open communication is good. Random attacks are bad. I'd like to just acknowledge that both sides have good points, but we seem to have like five or six sides going all at once! And unfortunately some people are just not being very understanding or patient when others are just trying to give good advice and are frustrated because they've been ignored, not for a good reason but just blanket-told that the idea was bad without context.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Radivel said:


> >.> Though if all anyone is gonna do on this is gripe about the same thing over and over again from thread to thread. These things might as well be closed. Ya got an update and epeated the things that have been said day after day and starting sometimes new unneeded arguments isn't getting anyone anywhere or moving this along any faster.



Well, the problem with that is that some legitimately good suggestions have been made in these threads too.  Besides, we need _somewhere_ to gripe about it or our brains will explode X3

A lot of what people are doing here is just... "letting off steam".  Don't take it too seriously. ;3


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> I'm just here to give advice on how artists should be better prepared for FA downtime, when it happens occasionally. You'd think they'd know when to use alternative methods.





Wow... so you make a sock puppet account just to try to chide artists on here for not setting up an alternate way to get in touch with commissioners before this downtime. 

Not everyone is comfortable about giving out their email addresses, and some people (like me) actually have issues with their email where there are times when I cant get to it for a day or two. 

Setting up an alternative email is a nice idea, but if you are used to using your real email, it is extremely inconvenient to have to check ANOTHER email address, and not being used to it there is always a chance that the email address and/or password may be forgotten. It *HAS* happened to me when I had a professional email address with gmail and despite everything I cannot get the information back, so anything that is on there I will never see it again. 


This is a WAY over simplification of a more complex issue.


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## Radivel (Dec 15, 2013)

Yeah I got that, I have read all six pages. Thing is this not an idea thread or opinion one. ^^; Its about the update. Now if everyone asking and sticking to things about the code, the hardware, and the staff that would be understandable. 

Like questions about errors that have occured, staff having to stop and do something life wise how often during the process, or did the process stop for some reason at any point and have to continue/restart.  That kinda thing makes sense but were all griping about policy and how artists handle things and how people handle people. ^^;  So all I'm saying is we have learned nothing but people have not thought things through or are having issues with themselves and other people which is just life. 

So why not stick to what its about? Im not here for the drama between artists and commissioners or between people here. I'm here to know whats wrong and whats been done to fix it. 

So here are some questions I want answered:

Why is it taking so long?
Is what ever the coders/staff is using having some issues?
Have there been any pauses in this process and why/how many?
Also why are staff having issues contact/communicating with their coder(s)?


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## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't get why people believe the Admins and site owner shouldn't be just as clueless as we are. I mean obviously they have a general idea of what's wrong but they're human. It's like if you yourself have something breakdown but can't pinpoint the problem. 

Sometimes there are no ulterior motives and it really is what it is. 


Ash-Fox said:


> Criticism surely isn't a problem, but when people try to compare the work of FurAffinity to a commercial website that is paying for full time employees and can afford to do so, or alternatively, comparing to smaller userbase/traffic websites that don't have to deal with the scalability problems that FurAffinity has, one does not see how this is warranted.


There's more to it than just that. A lot of promises are made for new updates or announcements are made that things are being worked on only to have them put on the back burner until later. Also in the threads discussing the outages, there have been people making newer versions of the site that will make it run smoother. 



> There are also serious problems with user expectations when the users are part of the problem. Do you think people feel like volunteering after doing their work hours, and probably having to do overtime (as is common these days) to work on the website when there is so much hostility against work being done? Do you think the fact that people aren't being paid to work full time on this site isn't a problem, what can the users do to deal with this?


I already tried saying that and was told that I was excusing the problem. It's either SoFurry or Inkbunny that's also volunteer run but doesn't have nearly as many issues. But again, their userbases aren't nearly as large as FA's. 



Glaice said:


> Call me pessimist, but I don't care if or when the  site comes back online. I have better things to do than argue or bicker  over a furry art site.


Do you want a medal?


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Radivel said:


> Yeah I got that, I have read all six pages. Thing is this not an idea thread or opinion one. ^^; Its about the update. Now if everyone asking and sticking to things about the code, the hardware, and the staff that would be understandable.
> 
> Like questions about errors that have occured, staff having to stop and do something life wise how often during the process, or did the process stop for some reason at any point and have to continue/restart.  That kinda thing makes sense but were all griping about policy and how artists handle things and how people handle people. ^^;  So all I'm saying is we have learned nothing but people have not thought things through or are having issues with themselves and other people which is just life.
> 
> ...



The whole artist/commissioner discussion got started in the first place because of exactly what you're asking, Radivel.  The answer to your question is that we don't know any of the answers to any of those four questions - because the people in charge ('Neer, Yak, etc.) aren't communicating with the community.  They updated us with an ETA, and that's IT.  They didn't say anything that's going on, and they didn't tell us anything else other than "it should be back up tonight" (which I'm still skeptical about, but we'll see).

The point that I made earlier is that there seems to be a pattern established here wherein the higher-ups say, "ETA this evening" or "We'll know something by tomorrow" or "We're hoping to know more by later today".  The time period mentioned comes and goes, and not only is the site not back up, but there's no update or any setting of new expectations.  That's the problem.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Willow said:


> Do you want a medal?



Sorry for the double-post, but this made my day.


----------



## imnohbody (Dec 15, 2013)

Glaice said:


> Call me pessimist, but I don't care if or when the site comes back online. I have better things to do than argue or bicker over a furry art site.


But you care enough to post that you don't care, in a thread about the status of a site whose functionality you claim you don't care about, instead of... y'know, just moving on and doing something else.


----------



## Radivel (Dec 15, 2013)

The thing is though they have made it known in some form they can't get in contact with some of their party and don't know themselves. So how can they tell you any more then they know themselves. Which is more or less what we have. Hence why im asking why they have that issue. XD


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Radivel said:


> The thing is though they have made it known in some form they can't get in contact with some of their party and don't know themselves. So how can they tell you any more then they know themselves. Which is more or less what we have. Hence why im asking why they have that issue. XD



I sympathize.  Sadly, I doubt you're likely to get an answer.  We're all just as much in the dark as you are.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Willow said:


> I don't get why people believe the Admins and site owner shouldn't be just as clueless as we are. I mean obviously they have a general idea of what's wrong but they're human. It's like if you yourself have something breakdown but can't pinpoint the problem.





Wow.  Just wow.

 If you had a software designer that couldn't figure out why their software was buggy, then they wouldn't be a software designer very long. 

They are human, but THEY RUN THIS SITE.  They should know how the damn site works, and if they don't then they need people who *DO*  the though that they might not know what the hell they are doing is a rather scary one.


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

Loki's Right Hand said:


> OMG. Seven days. Woooooooow. We've been without FA for longer and survived. Does no one remember the three month downtime in 2010? We had less information and updates then. Y'know, when the colo building _burned down. _



Actually, no, I don't remember that, and apparently, neither does Wikifur: http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity#Controversies


----------



## Pocketmew (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm fine with contacting my commissioners outside of FA, that isn't the problem, the main issue that me and other artists I know is that we can't take in more commissions for the holidays. We can on other sites of course, but not in the quantity that FA would provide. Of course you can't depend on a website (I don't, its only extra income) BUT the reality is, a good number of people do. 

Really, I think FA should say  "The servers will be up Tuesday" that way if they bring it up tonight everyone will be like YAY THEY GOT TO IT EARLY. Instead of being super mad when it gets pushed back again. Hahaha xD


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Actually, no, I don't remember that, and apparently, neither does Wikifur: http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity#Controversies



I don't remember the three months but I do remember that it was at least a month.

that was a "fun" year.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Actually, no, I don't remember that, and apparently, neither does Wikifur: http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity#Controversies





I am guessing they meant the 1 month outage..   That was.... fun.   Good times,  good times.


----------



## Radivel (Dec 15, 2013)

Pocketmew said:


> I'm fine with contacting my commissioners outside of FA, that isn't the problem, the main issue that me and other artists I know is that we can't take in more commissions for the holidays. We can on other sites of course, but not in the quantity that FA would provide. Of course you can't depend on a website (I don't, its only extra income) BUT the reality is, a good number of people do.
> 
> Really, I think FA should say  "The servers will be up Tuesday" that way if they bring it up tonight everyone will be like YAY THEY GOT TO IT EARLY. Instead of being super mad when it gets pushed back again. Hahaha xD



I agree with this. Its good to over estimate your time period gives you time to do things and it is a bit more professional.


----------



## BakedGewds (Dec 15, 2013)

I just hope it comes back soon so that every time I go to check a status update I don't get side tracked by reading all the drama and bickering in all of these threads.
x_x


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

BakedGewds said:


> I just hope it comes back soon so that every time I go to check a status update I don't get side tracked by reading all the drama and bickering in all of these threads.
> x_x



_but that's the best part._


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> _but that's the best part._



Where we're going, we don't need eyes to see... o_o


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> _but that's the best part._






What would furries be without drah-mah?     LOL


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> Where we're going, we don't need eyes to see... o_o



Love the reference! And at this rate, that's what it's starting to feel like, that there's no coming back out of this. I really hope I'm wrong, but this could be the beginning of the end if we don't get some more clear communication by midnight.


----------



## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Well, this is good advice NOW



Any professional worth a damn wouldn't have to be told period. It's common sense.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Wow.  Just wow.
> 
> If you had a software designer that couldn't figure out why their software was buggy, then they wouldn't be a software designer very long.


Actually they Google it in the software development business. It's an accepted form of troubleshooting.


----------



## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Wow.  Just wow.
> 
> If you had a software designer that couldn't figure out why their software was buggy, then they wouldn't be a software designer very long.
> 
> They are human, but THEY RUN THIS SITE.  They should know how the damn site works, and if they don't then they need people who *DO*  the though that they might not know what the hell they are doing is a rather scary one.


Yeah that's not really what I'm saying.


----------



## thoron (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Actually they Google it in the software development business. It's an accepted form of troubleshooting.



Your avatar works so well right now for these topics. :3


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

thoron said:


> Your avatar works so well right now for these topics. :3


That's how I roll when there's controversy. But thank you.
Software Development in both Smartphone Apps and Gaming is my career. So I find these threads fascinating.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Actually they Google it in the software development business. It's an accepted form of troubleshooting.




Way to totally miss the point. If the person running the site doesn't know how to run the site and can't keep the site up, then they shouldn't be running the site. 






Willow said:


> Yeah that's not really what I'm saying.





Sure sounded like what you were saying..


----------



## AthenaLash (Dec 15, 2013)

i like the part best when random people come in and announce how much they don't care yet they find the time to come and post here :'D


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

AthenaLash said:


> i like the part best when random people come in and announce how much they don't care yet they find the time to come and post here :'D






I know, always makes me laugh.


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> I don't remember the three months but I do remember that it was at least a month.
> 
> that was a "fun" year.



Wikifur gives not indication of having been down for any significant time in 2010. They record a one week downtime in 2009 and the famous Augustgate in 2008, which was a a bit over one month.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AthenaLash said:


> i like the part best when random people come in and announce how much they don't care yet they find the time to come and post here :'D



FA downtime makes us weird people do weird things.


----------



## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

I just head desk because of the people who honestly use FA as primary contact and then make excuses for it. Wallposts trying to damage control basic professional logic.


----------



## StormyChang (Dec 15, 2013)

wondering what time the updates meant when they said everything was being finished up and 'eta is tonight'  it's already 7, which is evening/night.  any more clear an eta or are we just gonna be sitting around until tuesday?


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Way to totally miss the point. If the person running the site doesn't know how to run the site and can't keep the site up, then they shouldn't be running the site.


I understand your concern but you said bugs in software in general. Developers Google problems because they don't have the answer to anything. 
Happy to help!


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

StormyChang said:


> are we just gonna be sitting around until tuesday?



It's possible, but there's really no more point in whining about it in thread after thread.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> I just head desk because of the people who honestly use FA as primary contact and then make excuses for it. Wallposts trying to damage control basic professional logic.




Yes, it's silly to use FA of a primary way of finding commissioners because.. you know, there are other sites with as many people and as much traffic as FA.

So yes, when FA goes down, not only do you miss contact with the commissioners you have, but the ones you would have gotten. 




I don't see why people don't seem to get this simple concept.


----------



## Meep. (Dec 15, 2013)

i just want it back so i can finish my YCH auction that i was doin and watch a bunch of new friends from a recent con-holiday-party meetup 
aside from that its just a bummer its been down so long.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> I just head desk because of the people who honestly use FA as primary contact and then make excuses for it. Wallposts trying to damage control basic professional logic.



It doesn't hurt to even have a separate E-Mail Address for the Fandom if they are so paranoid about their contact details.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> I understand your concern but you said bugs in software in general. Developers Google problems because they don't have the answer to anything.
> Happy to help!





It was an example, something that was obviously missed. It still doesn't answer the question here.. how can a person who run a site not know how to run it?

Being sarcastic really doesn't help you.


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

StormyChang said:


> wondering what time the updates meant when they said everything was being finished up and 'eta is tonight'  it's already 7, which is evening/night.  any more clear an eta or are we just gonna be sitting around until tuesday?



Well, considering they're ETAs, I don't think they're going to give an exact time beyond "tonight". 

It's 7pm right now on the east coast, there's is plenty of time for them to get it back up "tonight." Don't bet on it, though.


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> I just head desk because of the people who honestly use FA as primary contact and then make excuses for it. Wallposts trying to damage control basic professional logic.



Exactly, and it's not like FA really owes them the services anyway.
There's so many sites out there. Yes, they probably don't have as much traffic as FA but it's better than none.


----------



## ThisisGabe (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't really mind the site is down. There are so many alternatives out there.


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Yes, it's silly to use FA of a primary way of finding commissioners because.. you know, there are other sites with as many people and as much traffic as FA.
> 
> So yes, when FA goes down, not only do you miss contact with the commissioners you have, but the ones you would have gotten.
> 
> ...




Because it's easy to ask for an email or other forms of contact.

What's not easy is getting those other forms of contact out of people, which is what I don't see people getting.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Wow... so you make a sock puppet account just to try to chide artists on here for not setting up an alternate way to get in touch with commissioners before this downtime.
> 
> Not everyone is comfortable about giving out their email addresses, and some people (like me) actually have issues with their email where there are times when I cant get to it for a day or two.
> 
> ...



Setting up an alternate email is simple, and you can use POP3 to send it all to your main email account, AND set up your email to send mail from that account. Once you do that, it's a piece of cake to send and receive email for multiple addresses through a single account.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Exactly, and it's not like FA really owes them the services anyway.
> There's so many sites out there. Yes, they probably don't have as much traffic as FA but it's better than none.





That is exactly the kind of thoughtlessness that gets so many people upset.

A lot of people rely on FA for supplemental income, and when you have to go from one site with tens of thousands of people, to 2 or 3 with maybes a few hundred each, it isn't "better than nothing".. 

It *IS* nothing. 



For the people who pay FA for ads, and have given money or hardware to keep it working, yeah, they do owe it to them to keep it working, or give them their money back.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> It was an example, something that was obviously missed. It still doesn't answer the question here.. how can a person who run a site not know how to run it?
> 
> Being sarcastic really doesn't help you.


Sarcasm actually does. Now for a serious answer to the edgy sounding question. 

People who have the knowledge of setting up and maintaining a website do not actually need to have a large amount of knowledge. For a website with more than one page it requires more HTML knowledge. For a website used to store user submissions offline, you only need to have a storage place and code how it stores and displays the saved files.

So it is nothing to do with the website management, just the server side of things.

Happy to Help!


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> Setting up an alternate email is simple, and you can use POP3 to send it all to your main email account, AND set up your email to send mail from that account. Once you do that, it's a piece of cake to send and receive email for multiple addresses through a single account.





It is possible, but let's be honest, other than the nerds in furrydom (and yes, there are a lot) who is comfortable enough to do that?  And there is always a chance that they cannot get their POP3 info. Some ISPs don't like to give them out (which is rather stupid in my opinion)



I am not saying it is a bad idea... because it is a good idea, but I afraid a lot of people won't want to, or be able to do it. Just a thought.  *shrug* take it as you will.


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Sarcasm actually does. Now for a serious answer to the edgy sounding question.
> 
> People who have the knowledge of setting up and maintaining a website do not actually need to have a large amount of knowledge. For a website with more than one page it requires more HTML knowledge. For a website used to store user submissions offline, you only need to have a storage place and code how it stores and displays the saved files.
> 
> ...



That being said, you have to agree that FA should have seen these problems coming and should have had better code in place after being around for over seven years, right?


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> That is exactly the kind of thoughtlessness that gets so many people upset.
> 
> A lot of people rely on FA for supplemental income, and when you have to go from one site with tens of thousands of people, to 2 or 3 with maybes a few hundred each, it isn't "better than nothing"..
> 
> ...


You do realize that FA isn't a job site, right? They don't owe you a severance in case you lose out on commissions. They don't owe you refunds when you willingly donate to them.

If you just cling to one site and it goes down, oh fucking well that's just a damn shame.


----------



## Pettifog (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm being honest, folks, when I say that I have no idea who the banned user was, and that I'm not that person. That said, I've read this entire thread, and I feel compelled to reply to this with a bit of straight talk, and am going to take great cares to try not to be antagonistic in it.



LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> If you're only relying on FurAffinity to drive your business, then you're doing it 101% wrong. You're meant to get yourself out there on as many art-type websites as possible.





maxgoof said:


> ...
> 
> 4) Weasyl is brand new, effectively, and their userbase is a fraction of FA's.
> 
> Now, what were you saying again?



First of all, the OP's point about being on more than one art site is and remains relevant, and in fact _pretty insulting to deny_ as long as FA remains down. That other sites are less desirable for one reason or another does not change the base fact that 'if one site is down and it's the only one you have a presence linked on, you're screwed'. Nobody can modify their FA page right now to tell people somewhere else to reach them.

Second, what was said about Weasyl in particular was more true about 72 hours ago. It remains new, surely, but still calls itself 'in beta' and yet has a significantly better uptime track record than FA for the past week: 100% versus 0%. It doesn't have to deal with the scalability problems that FA does at the present time, but one could make the strong argument right about now that that's a key advantage or 'ability to be nimble' that FA doesn't have.

I absolutely will grant that Weasyl's userbase is in fact a lot smaller, but also point out that after the first 48 hours of FA's read-only outage, its active userbase-per-hour has been growing by about 20% each day FA remains down. I'm not kidding when I say that 'the Weasyl community of one week ago is not the same as the Weasyl community today'. You may wish to have a look. A bit of humility from white knights here might be warranted, granting that, particularly if you haven't actually visited to see what's going on.

When Augustgate happened, FA could have been down for a month or three months; there was no viable alternative. Today, there are. When the cub porn exodus was enforced, people went to IB, and heck, there is even an FAtoIB script that was created and used with the FA administration's blessing to help that exodus.

One might ask themselves: would the administration, today, give blessing to an FAtoWZL script that allows easy porting of 'all of your gallery images with one mouse click', the same way that FAtoIB does? I donâ€™t actually care to incite a reply. Iâ€™d just like every reader of this post to _think about that_ and perhaps temper the â€˜FA is a monopolyâ€™ attitude a little.

And now, I honestly say, best of luck to the FA administration who find themselves in a very difficult situation, technically and emotionally. I hope for your server problems to be resolved soon.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> That being said, you have to agree that FA should have seen these problems coming and should have had better code in place after being around for over seven years, right?


Personally, I think there should have been some sort of routine maintenance on the hardware, the server's software for handling submissions as well as cleaning up a few website bugs. Or even allow users outside of the Tech staff to help. Only fixing stuff as it crawls up is generally bad practice.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Sarcasm actually does. Now for a serious answer to the edgy sounding question.
> 
> People who have the knowledge of setting up and maintaining a website do not actually need to have a large amount of knowledge. For a website with more than one page it requires more HTML knowledge. For a website used to store user submissions offline, you only need to have a storage place and code how it stores and displays the saved files.
> 
> ...






If a person is going to make a small website, a personal one, sure.. It is okay to know a little bit about HTML and stuff.. But when you are talking about a MASSIVE website like FA, you have to know more than the basics, and this downtime is EXACTLY why.  You have to be able to determine what the issue is, and what has to be done to fix it, if it is HW that needs to be replaced, or a server crashing, etc.  I am not saying that you have to be an expert in EVERYTHING, but if you cannot do even basic troubleshooting and develop a site that you can preemptively fix problems and quickly determine problems when the do turn up, then that is the mark of bad management.


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> Because it's easy to ask for an email or other forms of contact.
> 
> What's not easy is getting those other forms of contact out of people, which is what I don't see people getting.



Sorry to repeat what Seaweed said, but the problem is not contact. The problem is drawing in commissioners, because the other sites don't have near the traffic. Your response was like answering the question "Why is the sky blue?" by saying "Because Wednesday isn't the weekend, idiot."


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> You do realize that FA isn't a job site, right? They don't owe you a severance in case you lose out on commissions. They don't owe you refunds when you willingly donate to them.
> 
> If you just cling to one site and it goes down, oh fucking well that's just a damn shame.





Okay, when did I or *ANYONE* else ever say that they owed us severance if we lose out on commissions?  What I said was that people do pay money to FA with the agreement that the users are going to keep it running. If they cannot keep it running, then they shouldn't accept donations or ad revenue because they are not holding up their side of the bargain. 


As for the "clinging to one site" as I said before, this site has THE MOST traffic and THE MOST users of ANY furry site,  so why would people *NOT* use it as their main site for art, music, writing, etc?


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Personally, I think there should have been some sort of routine maintenance on the hardware, the server's software for handling submissions as well as cleaning up a few website bugs. Or even allow users outside of the Tech staff to help. Only fixing stuff as it crawls up is generally bad practice.






Yes, yes yes.. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. That goes quite well for FA.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> That is exactly the kind of thoughtlessness that gets so many people upset.
> 
> A lot of people rely on FA for supplemental income, and when you have to go from one site with tens of thousands of people, to 2 or 3 with maybes a few hundred each, it isn't "better than nothing"..
> 
> ...



FA is not immune to criticism, but neither are the people who decide to make it their income to use the site without any personal accountability. It's not FA's problem that people are using this as income. No more than it's my problem that the street corner I sell lemonade, fruit and tamales from becomes unavailable. This problem of FA being down has come up multiple times before. If people haven't learned to take alternatives in protecting how to procure their income it's a bit silly to blame a website that was done for entertainment purposes as the loss of your income.

Kind of hard to use the words "professional" that artists like to use when they keep saying "well I can't contact my commissioners, how am I gonna make money now that I've been banned from FA?" The same thing goes for when there is downtime.


----------



## StormyChang (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> It's possible, but there's really no more point in whining about it in thread after thread.



i wasn't whining, i was asking, because i remember someone mentioning tuesday in a thread like this...


----------



## StormyChang (Dec 15, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> Well, considering they're ETAs, I don't think they're going to give an exact time beyond "tonight".
> 
> It's 7pm right now on the east coast, there's is plenty of time for them to get it back up "tonight." Don't bet on it, though.



the sever/neer/everyone physically working on it is on the east coast, that's why all the times on FA look weird to people in other timezones, because FA runs off eastern timezone.


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Okay, when did I or *ANYONE* else ever say that they owed us severance if we lose out on commissions?  What I said was that people do pay money to FA with the agreement that the users are going to keep it running. If they cannot keep it running, then they shouldn't accept donations or ad revenue because they are not holding up their side of the bargain.
> 
> 
> As for the "clinging to one site" as I said before, this site has THE MOST traffic and THE MOST users of ANY furry site,  so why would people *NOT* use it as their main site for art, music, writing, etc?





> "For the people who pay FA for ads, and have given money or hardware to  keep it working, yeah, they do owe it to them to keep it working, o*r  give them their money back*."


What bargain? There is no bargain. Just because you donate to someone doesn't mean you're owed something if they don't cough up whatever. It just means you've been conned. Congratulations!

Ok, this site has the most traffic. So the fuck what? That doesn't mean you should ignore other areas. Branch out. Tumblr, Facebook, DA, IB, Weasyl, Livejournal, Youtube,
fucking establish yourself everywhere.


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Sorry to repeat what Seaweed said, but the problem is not contact. The problem is drawing in commissioners, because the other sites don't have near the traffic. Your response was like answering the question "Why is the sky blue?" by saying "Because Wednesday isn't the weekend, idiot."



I get what they were saying. But with this quote here



XoPachi said:


> I just head desk because of the people who honestly use FA as primary contact and then make excuses for it. Wallposts trying to damage control basic professional logic.



They were saying how using FA as a *primary contact *was a bad idea, not using FA to get noticed was a bad idea. Yes, you need a site up to get noticed, but for the people who already have contacted commissioners, they should've had to set up an alternate contact account to continue contacting them with that account. That's the thought. You need to contact your commissioners, you tell them to contact you here.

So, it's easy to tell someone to contact you here as soon as they ask about a commission. It's not easy to get them to contact you there. 

Yes, FA is a major furry art site, and to get commissioners at all you should be posting there. That's a problem everyone is worried about. But the original quote was about *contacting,* So I answered why people don't get the concept that having alternate contacts for commissioners that you already have isn't always the answer.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

StormyChang said:


> i wasn't whining, i was asking, because i remember someone mentioning tuesday in a thread like this...



I apologise for that. I wasn't referring to you specifically.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> FA is not immune to criticism, but neither are the people who decide to make it their income to use the site without any personal accountability. It's not FA's problem that people are using this as income. No more than it's my problem that the street corner I sell lemonade, fruit and tamales from becomes unavailable. This problem of FA being down has come up multiple times before. If people haven't learned to take alternatives in protecting how to procure their income it's a bit silly to blame a website that was done for entertainment purposes as the loss of your income.
> 
> Kind of hard to use the words "professional" that artists like to use when they keep saying "well I can't contact my commissioners, how am I gonna make money now that I've been banned from FA?" The same thing goes for when there is downtime.






There are two issues about FA being down:

First is that the people who use FA for commissions do not have a secondary site than can give them the amount of traffic and amount of users that FA can. So if FA is down, they have no where else to go to get the amount of commissions that they had before. 

The second issue is if FA goes down, especially suddenly, then it is possible that they may either not be able to get to their notes (obviously not an issue when its just read only, but it has gone all the way down, or they may not be able to get to the references that they need that may be on FA, or they may not be able to get in touch with users who they would originally get in touch with on FA. 



While the second issue CAN be remedied with an email (the pros and cons have already been debated here), the first issue is one that the user themselves can do nothing about.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

You know, this feels weird.  Ever get that feeling like, "I really want to say something, but I honestly can't think of anything meaningful to say"?  Yeah.  I'm having that feeling right now.  We're going back and forth about e-mail and alternate contacts and sites and such, but are we really adding anything new to this conversation?


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> You know, this feels weird.  Ever get that feeling like, "I really want to say something, but I honestly can't think of anything meaningful to say"?  Yeah.  I'm having that feeling right now.  We're going back and forth about e-mail and alternate contacts and sites and such, but are we really adding anything new to this conversation?



I think a lot of us are probably bored. For a lot of people, including myself, this is Christmas break from university. We seem to be having trouble coming up with other things to do.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> There are two issues about FA being down:
> 
> First is that the people who use FA for commissions do not have a secondary site than can give them the amount of traffic and amount of users that FA can. So if FA is down, they have no where else to go to get the amount of commissions that they had before.
> 
> ...



You realize there are many artists that get jobs every day without FA, correct? People who did furry art got commissions before FA. The first problem is the effect of a user who only sees things through tunnel vision. Many people who went to say Concept Art.org didn't cry about not being able to get jobs when it was down. They were upset about the downtime because the first ting is to post art so they can improve. The people who who want jobs knew how to network and they knew CA had some sources but it wasn't the only source.

Blaming FA for this major malfunction in basics of learning how to get income, is absurd. I'm sorry. I recognize it can be a source of income but maybe some people need to take a step back at the primary purpose of FA, which is to post art. If it's down there are other resources now. There were other resources *before* FA's existence.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> What bargain? There is no bargain. Just because you donate to someone doesn't mean you're owed something if they don't cough up whatever. It just means you've been conned. Congratulations!
> 
> Ok, this site has the most traffic. So the fuck what? That doesn't mean you should ignore other areas. Branch out. Tumblr, Facebook, DA, IB, Weasyl, Livejournal, Youtube,
> fucking establish yourself everywhere.






Paying for Ad space is not donating. Not all the money they receive is donations. 


You talk about branching out.  So instead of having one convenient place that has A LOT of furry traffic, we now have to traverse 5 or 6 or more places, all  with traffic that put together would most likely still not add to the amount of traffic that we would get on one website.

Just saying "branch out" doesn't fix the core issue.


----------



## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Way to totally miss the point. If the person running the site doesn't know how to run the site and can't keep the site up, then they shouldn't be running the site.





> Sure sounded like what you were saying..


It's not "I don't know how to run a site period" it's "I don't know what's causing this specific problem". Even commercial websites sometimes can't figure out what causes their own outages. Which is what I was getting at. 

Of course, their outages won't last nearly as long but same principle. 

Unless you expect everyone who wishes to own any type of business or website or whatever else to be a complete expert and know the answer to everything.


----------



## Traediras (Dec 15, 2013)

Not to mention that if it was sudden downtime, the artist doesn't have the opportunity to redirect commissioners to a different method of contact. Obviously having foresight helps, but it's not like everyone does actually think about every little detail.

I think we could actually benefit from a commissions subsection that is hosted on a different server, that way we can still communicate and access notes even if FA is down. That, or have mail-forwarding of notes to the email of the recipient? Though the latter is more of a pipedream than anything else because of security reasons.


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

LifeIsntAboutFA said:


> Lol, people actually buy music from furs.



Actually, yes, they do. Furs have bought from me quite a few times.



> Inkbunny has the option to filter keywords you might not want to see. It's not rocket science to go click-click-typetypetype-click-done.



Location, location, location. Many people simply will not visit Inkbunny. Those that will not visit Inkbunny will not be able to patronize artists on Inkbunny, and many others will think poorly of artists who do sell their stuff on Inkbunny, regarless, simply because they are on Inkbunny.



> For DA, consider using Soundcloud more often.



Soundcloud's space limitations are quite severe. Unless you make a fair amount of money from your music, you can't afford the price required for more space.



> For Weasyl, you might as well get promoting yourself as much as you can. Surely someone will actually buy something from ya.



And I do, but it's the difference between being in the Mall Of America and a neighborhood shopping strip.


----------



## rjbartrop (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Sorry to repeat what Seaweed said, but the problem is not contact. The problem is drawing in commissioners, because the other sites don't have near the traffic. Your response was like answering the question "Why is the sky blue?" by saying "Because Wednesday isn't the weekend, idiot."



It's still good to have that backup, and if you have that other site, then maybe this is the time to start pushing it.  If you already have followers, then you already have a group who will want to know where else they can find you.  

As for attracting new followers, size can work both for you, and against you.    Sure, FA has lots of eyeballs, but there's also plenty of other artists clamouring for attention.   Art stays on the front page for a few minutes at a time.  If you haven't developed the network, then nobody's going to know that you're there.   On a smaller site,  with fewer artists competing for attention, your art's more likely to stay up long enough for someone to notice.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Traediras said:


> Not to mention that if it was sudden downtime, the artist doesn't have the opportunity to redirect commissioners to a different method of contact. Obviously having foresight helps, but it's not like everyone does actually think about every little detail.
> 
> I think we could actually benefit from a commissions subsection that is hosted on a different server, that way we can still communicate and access notes even if FA is down. That, or have mail-forwarding of notes to the email of the recipient? Though the latter is more of a pipedream than anything else because of security reasons.





Exactly, you  put that first part better than I had been able to. 


The commissions on a separate server would be great. but in all honesty I doubt that will ever be implemented, unfortunately.


----------



## Delta (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> You talk about branching out.  So instead of having one convenient place that has A LOT of furry traffic, we now have to traverse 5 or 6 or more places, all  with traffic that put together would most likely still not add to the amount of traffic that we would get on one website.



Dude, are you fucking daft?
Do you have ANY understand of basic business practices? 
Its called exposure. You get it by not putting all of your eggs in one basket and *branching out* into other areas to access a larger audience.
An artist that relies on commissions from income should most definitely be putting there name and work in multiple places because while FA is definitely a hub for the fandom, its not the only place for the fandom.
Tumblr, DA, Inkbunny, Weasyl, their own god-damn website. These are places that any artist looking to make money from their craft should be linked into. 
Suggesting that the inconvenience of have to access separate sources outweighs the benefits being able to conduct business else were when one place isn't accessible just shows your incompetence. I would tell you to stop posting, but I've come to find that it is very hard to quiet stupid.




> Just saying "branch out" doesn't fix the core issue.


The core issue is created by morons who, like you, refuse to spread their circle of influence because they'd have to click a bit more.
So in short, yes "branching out" does infact fix the core issue.


----------



## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

Traediras said:


> Not to mention that if it was sudden downtime, the artist doesn't have the opportunity to redirect commissioners to a different method of contact. Obviously having foresight helps, but it's not like everyone does actually think about every little detail.
> 
> I think we could actually benefit from a commissions subsection that is hosted on a different server, that way we can still communicate and access notes even if FA is down. That, or have mail-forwarding of notes to the email of the recipient? Though the latter is more of a pipedream than anything else because of security reasons.


Not sure if this is the same as what you're referring to but there's this on the forums as far as having a separate thing for commissions goes. It might be worth using.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

rjbartrop said:


> It's still good to have that backup, and if you have that other site, then maybe this is the time to start pushing it.  If you already have followers, then you already have a group who will want to know where else they can find you.




It could be (could be, mind you, it's hard to know for sure) to get commissioners to go to other sites. They may like FA because of its size and may not want to go to a smaller site, or they may have some moral objection about a certain site.  

Not saying it would be a huge issue, but it might cause some consternation.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> If a person is going to make a small website, a personal one, sure.. It is okay to know a little bit about HTML and stuff.. But when you are talking about a MASSIVE website like FA, you have to know more than the basics, and this downtime is EXACTLY why. You have to be able to determine what the issue is, and what has to be done to fix it, if it is HW that needs to be replaced, or a server crashing, etc. I am not saying that you have to be an expert in EVERYTHING, but if you cannot do even basic troubleshooting and develop a site that you can preemptively fix problems and quickly determine problems when the do turn up, then that is the mark of bad management.


When people point at their watch and ask you for the time is always a time for sarcasm. But you are digressing 


Troubleshooting and determining problems when they turn up are the exact same thing. The issue has been through troubleshooting which is why we know and the TLDR of what is wrong has been posted. A site cannot fix preemptive problems on its own. Some server software can fix minor to moderate ones. But self healing isn't possible.


I do however agree with you on the bad management. The Tech Staff should have performed more routine checks to notice the hardware failing and replaced them at the first sign of problems but leaving it so soon that it causes the massive explosion of upset isn't effective management but The Tech staff shouldn't really be lynched over faulty hardware.




seaweed said:


> Yes, yes yes.. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. That goes quite well for FA.


I was referring to FA.



Willow said:


> Unless you expect everyone who wishes to own any type of business or website or whatever else to be a complete expert and know the answer to everything.


 It would be madness to have that sort of expectancy of someone. You can only expect them realistically to have the knowledge of troubleshooting and to solve problems on their own to a certain level of their expertise. Outside help like google is completely acceptable with things you don't know how to fix.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> Dude, are you fucking daft?
> Do you have ANY understand of basic business practices?
> Its called exposure. You get it by not putting all of your eggs in one basket and *branching out* into other areas to access a larger audience.
> An artist that relies on commissions from income should most definitely be putting there name and work in multiple places because while FA is definitely a hub for the fandom, its not the only place for the fandom.
> ...






First off, I am not a "dude"  and I can assure you that I am not daft. And calling me a moron doesn't really help your argument, as it looks like more of personal attack and less like an intelligent discussion. 


On to what you are saying:

As I have said NUMEROUS times here, it is good to have a presence on more than website, sure. But when the website with the MOST traffic and the MOST users go down, then don't act like it isn't a HUGE issue for the people who use it to earn money. 

Going onto IB, Weasyl, SF, etc. is good, but even all together they are still not going to get you the amount of exposure that FA will by itself. 

It will not fix the core issue because you will get 10% the traffic on 3 times the websites. 



But please, go ahead and insult me more if it makes you feel better.


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> You know, this feels weird.  Ever get that feeling like, "I really want to say something, but I honestly can't think of anything meaningful to say"?  Yeah.  I'm having that feeling right now.  We're going back and forth about e-mail and alternate contacts and sites and such, but are we really adding anything new to this conversation?



Well, first of all, it does pass the time. 

But many of the responses read like a stock email reply that you get from Tech Support and it becomes painfully obvious that they have not even bothered to actually read the email you sent. Kind of like this:

"Hi, I am unable to get your website to work for me. I have checked my system for viruses, rebooted the computer, and reloaded my browser, flash, and java. However, I still get a blank page when I get to the checkout page. Could you check that out for me? Thanks."

"Hi, Valued Customer. I am sorry that you are experiencing trouble, we will attempt to address your problem as quickly as we can. In the meantime, have you had your computer checked for viruses lately? Often viruses can produce unexpected results in browsers. Rebooting the computer also often works. And if worse comes to worst reloading your software might provide a solution."


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

Willow said:


> Not sure if this is the same as what you're referring to but there's this on the forums as far as having a separate thing for commissions goes. It might be worth using.



I've found the BM to be a bit of a ghetto, personally. As someone put it in another thread, it was "sob stories everywhere and people selling things for $1" before it was moderated. I can attest to this. That said, it would probably be a good idea to put work into improving it and encouraging more popular artists to use it. I see the value in having a one-stop shop for art.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Well, first of all, it does pass the time.
> 
> But many of the responses read like a stock email reply that you get from Tech Support and it becomes painfully obvious that they have not even bothered to actually read the email you sent. Kind of like this:
> 
> ...






 Did you turn it off and back on?  Are you using the CD tray as a cup holder?  Is it plugged in?     Ah, I could tell stories about my times in Customer Service.


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> First off, I am not a "dude"  and I can assure you that I am not daft. And calling me a moron doesn't really help your argument, as it looks like more of personal attack and less like an intelligent discussion.
> 
> 
> On to what you are saying:
> ...


And how is any of this FA's fault?

Shit happens. Oh well. Get over it.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> And how is any of this FA's fault?
> 
> Shit happens. Oh well. Get over it.







LOL way to not help the issue at all.   Good job.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Did you turn it off and back on?  Are you using the CD tray as a cup holder?  Is it plugged in?     Ah, I could tell stories about my times in Customer Service.



I once did troubleshooting for a cell-phone company.  Two-hour call one time only to find out that I was trying to troubleshoot an old lady's TV remote.


----------



## glumpsch (Dec 15, 2013)

The problem with FA is and alway will be, that it is lead and maintained by people who are no experts in server management and programming. FA always had a downtime of about a week to two every two years, and everytime they are asking for about $10-20k for new servers. Instead they should put the money into professionally cloud computing servers, for example Amazon, or other companies, who know how to maintain databases and servers. Or put the money into developing and optimizing the code of the site if they cant do it themself.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> I once did troubleshooting for a cell-phone company.  Two-hour call one time only to find out that I was trying to troubleshoot an old lady's TV remote.



 Was one time my hubby was troubleshooting a printer. the customer uninstalled and reinstalled the drivers, uninstalled and reinstalled the OS, changed the registry,  and the issue was that they hadn't taken the tape off the bottom of the cartridge. 


TRUE STORY.


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> And how is any of this FA's fault?
> 
> Shit happens. Oh well. Get over it.



It's FA's fault because hundreds of people have seen these problems and knew that they were going to repeat, but nothing was done about it. There have also been dozens of people coming forward to offer professional services for FREE, and they were denied. That's why the Ferrox project failed, mostly because Eevee and his team were unable to reason with Yak, who for some reason still has a job despite these insane screwups.

That being said, there's nothing we can do right now except wait, and hopefully something good will come of it. But I'm not holding my breath, so instead I want to try to make a positive difference.


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> LOL way to not help the issue at all.   Good job.



The issue is pretty much with you. Since you'd rather make excuses there really is nothing anyone can do to help.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

People who actually know how to draw well and network have less issues getting jobs, than the people complaining about FA's downtime. There's a really hard truth to this that many don't want to accept because it may cause hurt feelings that:

1. You're probably not that good and that due to there being more people on the site you got some income.
2. You aren't really prepared to call yourself an "artist" or "professional" but maybe got lucky it's a big site 

The primary purpose of FA is to be an art hosting site. Is it doing a poor job of it? I think that's a viable question.

The purpose of FA being your business site, is a bad question because it isn't its primary purpose in the first place. It just happens to allow it. That doesn't mean that it should be accountable for that function. It would probably be bad news given that many people don't really pay their taxes or probably use legit software and it's not FA's responsibility to micromanage that.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> LOL way to not help the issue at all.   Good job.


Neither does offering your helpful advice.


----------



## Toulin (Dec 15, 2013)

A real shame this is taking so long to fix, all the best getting it done. Gonna be interesting to see how things go with the influx of submissions and journals :>


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> The issue is pretty much with you. Since you'd rather make excuses there really is nothing anyone can do to help.





The issue is with me because FA cannot keep their servers stable.  Wow, really? I had no idea.


The problem is that people *WANT* to help but FA will not take it, who knows why, and now people are missing out on commissions and submissions, etc because of it.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Was one time my hubby was troubleshooting a printer. the customer uninstalled and reinstalled the drivers, uninstalled and reinstalled the OS, changed the registry,  and the issue was that they hadn't taken the tape off the bottom of the cartridge.
> 
> 
> TRUE STORY.



Oh.  I believe you.  The worst part of it is that I had to deal with billing disputes as well as tech support.  Are you _seriously_ going to stay on the phone with customer service for FOUR HOURS just to reverse a ten-cent text message charge?  (Oh, and by the way, yes, your kid DID in fact send that text message.  "Oh, but my little Bobby would NEVER..."  Yes.  Yes he would.  Just stop.)


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Neither does offering your helpful advice.





Many people have offered helpful advice in these forums, and it has not been taken.


----------



## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> The issue is with me because FA cannot keep their servers stable.  Wow, really? I had no idea.
> 
> 
> The problem is that people *WANT* to help but FA will not take it, who knows why, and now people are missing out on commissions and submissions, etc because of it.


No. The problem is you bitching about not being able to get commissions when it's not FA's responsibility to provide you these.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Oh.  I believe you.  The worst part of it is that I had to deal with billing disputes as well as tech support.  Are you _seriously_ going to stay on the phone with customer service for FOUR HOURS just to reverse a ten-cent text message charge?  (Oh, and by the way, yes, your kid DID in fact send that text message.  "Oh, but my little Bobby would NEVER..."  Yes.  Yes he would.  Just stop.)



If it's that bad for ten cents, I can't imagine what dealing with a parent whose teenager just racked up a thousand or so dollars in texts because mom and dad didn't buy the right plan must be like.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Oh.  I believe you.  The worst part of it is that I had to deal with billing disputes as well as tech support.  Are you _seriously_ going to stay on the phone with customer service for FOUR HOURS just to reverse a ten-cent text message charge?  (Oh, and by the way, yes, your kid DID in fact send that text message.  "Oh, but my little Bobby would NEVER..."  Yes.  Yes he would.  Just stop.)





I am *SO* glad that I was never in a billing department, customer service was bad enough. And the techs who THOUGHT they knew everything were the worst. The little old ladies  who had no idea and knew you knew more and would listen to you were frustrating at times, but t least they did what you said.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Many people have offered helpful advice in these forums, and it has not been taken.


Its nothing to do with the forums but the one needing advice's choice. People take advice if they ask for it, generally.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> No. The problem is you bitching about not being able to get commissions when it's not FA's responsibility to provide you these.





It is any website's responsibility to its users to maintain their up-time, no matter what the people are doing on that website. Be it commissions, or whatever.


----------



## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

/facepalm


----------



## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Lets get down to brass tacks:

If you're making a living off of FA, making it your home page... you need to get a proper site (and your own .com/etc).  Many good artists do this (Lizardbeth, Gideon, Jasen Tamila are a few).  Some mediocre artists are doing this too (myself included, because I want to concentrate a few things including my webcomic on a server).  But a lot of artwork can be put here and a "best of the best" put in the site.

If you're getting some cash off the side, it's worth while to at least have another gallery (like DA) and point them at each other.


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 15, 2013)

All you people complaining about lost trade how about you just send the FTC a complaint about FA, huh? Jesus.


----------



## Shaki (Dec 15, 2013)

Rooster.

Calm down and enjoy your weekend guys.


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## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> It is any website's responsibility to its users to maintain their up-time, no matter what the people are doing on that website. Be it commissions, or whatever.



Oy vey


----------



## Delta (Dec 15, 2013)

Im sure you're legs are pretty beefy from all that back peddling, but I quoted your argument against branching in a post you made about why branching out is a bad idea.



> As I have said NUMEROUS times here, it is good to have a presence on more than website, sure. But when the website with the MOST traffic and the MOST users go down, then don't act like it isn't a HUGE issue for the people who use it to earn money.



And how is that problem of FA? Its a hub for the furry art community, thats great - but it has zero obligations to the financial well being of its users. Smart artists are updating their blog, websites, tumblrs and profiles on other sites right now so that they can continue conduct business. The rest of the fools are here on FAF crying about how FA owes them money for lost income. Your business is nobody's responsibility, but your own.




> Going onto IB, Weasyl, SF, etc. is good, but even all together they are still not going to get you the amount of exposure that FA will by itself.



Being on these other sites is GREAT and if you actually took the time to analyze your own eggshell arguments, you'd notice that FA is in read-only mode. Your exposure stays the same, but now you're accessible were you wouldn't be if you weren't on these other sites. So whats the fucking issue here?

And to answer to you're last little quip - its making me feel great.


----------



## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

BTW, I have been nice in not going into heavy technical Steve Gibsonian detail on how FA could work.  Don't make me, everyone.  It won't be easy for all of you and it won't be on FA at all.


----------



## Blackheart the wolf (Dec 15, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> It will be ready by tonight! Awesome sauce!


 I sure hope so. I am anxious to post the new art that I received before the site went down.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> Lets get down to brass tacks:
> 
> If you're making a living off of FA, making it your home page... you need to get a proper site (and your own .com/etc).  Many good artists do this (Lizardbeth, Gideon, Jasen Tamila are a few).  Some mediocre artists are doing this too (myself included, because I want to concentrate a few things including my webcomic on a server).  But a lot of artwork can be put here and a "best of the best" put in the site.
> 
> If you're getting some cash off the side, it's worth while to at least have another gallery (like DA) and point them at each other.


 you have this spot on. Artists should always have more than one place in which to post their art. Not only on their own websites but in other art sites. It would also help them get noticed for their work and will also serve as a good back up of their art.



STrRedWolf said:


> BTW, I have been nice in not going into heavy technical Steve Gibsonian detail on how FA could work. Don't make me, everyone. It won't be easy for all of you and it won't be on FA at all.



My career is in Software Development. Send me a PM on these forums. I'm interested to hear more.


----------



## BlazeIgnitus (Dec 15, 2013)

Perhaps this is incredibly stupid of me to say and/or do, but will people just STOP with the damned blame game already?! "The problem is you," "no, the problem is YOU!" Act like adults that I hope you are, considering the site's target audience and the overall themes of artwork posted on it. I had middle and high school students during my stint of student teaching this year who were far more mature than the people arguing and throwing insults around. It's incredibly childish.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

I tend to think that we love FurAffinity for what it was or perhaps what it could be, more than the reality. When it's functional, it can be completely awesome and it is the pole around which the rest of the fandom spins. However, when the wheels fall off and it stops working, then we feel how gut-wrenching it can be without our site. The people who run this site own and maintain the most prestigious site in the fandom- I don't have a problem with them owning the site but subletting the maintenance of the site to a third party might be a good idea. I feel the site's custodians and owners run FurAffinity the same way Jerry Jones runs the Cowboys- they are great owners but poor general managers.


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## rjbartrop (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> It could be (could be, mind you, it's hard to know for sure) to get commissioners to go to other sites. They may like FA because of its size and may not want to go to a smaller site, or they may have some moral objection about a certain site.
> 
> Not saying it would be a huge issue, but it might cause some consternation.



I'm not going to try and tell you that FA isn't extremely useful when it is working.   However, I would argue that, however imperfect, a Weasyl where you can do business is still better than an FA where you can't.   Building a following will take time, of course, just like it did here,  but wouldn't it be good for all those fans jonesing for new Seaweed art to at least know there's a place they can find it?
      None of this is guaranteed,  but there is a point where you have to stop going "Oh man I'm screwed!", and start thinking about what you're going to do about it.   Things break, and it would be naive to think that FA is never going to break again.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

Man, I keep telling people how Art Schools rip you off like the For Profit ones in terms of what you get out of it, but maybe some of these people needed to go there because about every art school tells you or makes it part of your graduation requirements in order to help you get money and a job is to *build your own website* not depend off DA or an Art Gallery. They tell you to build your own website. 

We'll say it again, a much enforced requirement for an artist who wants income.

Is to build your own website as the central hub for contact. It is to be your portfolio too.

You then link to other sites where people can find more of your artwork.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> Im sure you're legs are pretty beefy from all that back peddling, but I quoted your argument against branching in a post you made about why branching out is a bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







All the backpeddling? From what? I have been saying the same thing the whole time, that branching out on other sites wont get you as much traffic as you will here. Please, tell me where I have said something to the contrary. 

Having a personal website is nice, but you still need to tell people where it is.. and where do you do that?  FA. And FA is down? well then new people won't get to come to your website. 

There is no "eggshell" argument there. Others have been making the same argument as I have been. It makes perfect sense to anyone with a mind open enough to look past their own bias and understand how important FA is to many people.


----------



## Ehrinlove (Dec 15, 2013)

the issue is artists cant POST, they cant make journals, can't draw  attention to open slots or auctions, its near useless to have spots on  other sites unless you have a large dedicated fan-base already since the  majority WONT leave fa because it's the largest website 

your  ignoring the fact that the artists HAVE to go where the art is most  desired. which is FA its not like they can magically make more people  show up on the other sites

FA has a responsibility to keep itself  up for a user-base who would willingly DONATE [if only they would show  it going somewhere useful] and to users to PAY FOR ADDS fa is in read  only mode, means they dont get the same exposure, 70% of people wont  browse in read-only mode since there are no updates and a huge amount of  people sit on the front page all day, a lot of an artists exposure  comes from that so really an artists chance of getting commissions  decreases by the day, this outtage could have been prevented easily, FA  owes it to the user base to improve, to follow up on long past made  promises that never saw realization 


these arguments have  been screamed and re-hashed so many times already in the last few days,  at this point its just people looking to fight and bitch


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## GamerFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Some of us can't afford web hosting fees, though.


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## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

Guys, I notice a lot of insults being thrown around.

Its fine if you want to debate things, but please be civil about it.


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## Delta (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> BTW, I have been nice in not going into heavy technical Steve Gibsonian detail on how FA could work.  Don't make me, everyone.  It won't be easy for all of you and it won't be on FA at all.


Really and IT-TG?
Furries never disappoint when it comes to being disappointing.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Okay.  Everyone is saying "Artists need to branch out!  Artists need to branch out!"

WE KNOW.  ENOUGH ALREADY.

None of that helps us right here, right now.  You keep saying that we need to establish alternate contacts.  Let me put it this way: when I look someone up in a phone book and I see a phone number, I'm going to (reasonably) assume that the phone number listed will work.  Now, if I call that number and find out that the house has been destroyed in a tornado or whatever, what happens?  I can't just call the (now-dead) number and say, "Hey, man, what's your cell number?"


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

This has gotten really off topic, but I'm going to add fuel to the fire for a second here...

Unfortunately when it comes down to it,  some of you are right that artists should branch out. I for one, have made the mistake in not doing so. This outage has taught me my lesson. I'm not so sure if it'll be the same for many others. 

FA is the only place that has worked for me. So I stuck to it, and abandoned everything else. So I did try a little, but not hard enough I guess. 

Even more-so off topic, Are there any free websites out there? Kinda like weebly?


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## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> All the backpeddling? From what? I have been saying the same thing the whole time, that branching out on other sites wont get you as much traffic as you will here. Please, tell me where I have said something to the contrary.
> 
> Having a personal website is nice, but you still need to tell people where it is.. and where do you do that?  FA. And FA is down? well then new people won't get to come to your website.
> 
> There is no "eggshell" argument there. Others have been making the same argument as I have been. It makes perfect sense to anyone with a mind open enough to look past their own bias and understand how important FA is to many people.



FA is not completely down! It is in read-only mode which is simply you cannot post or submit anything. People can still look at your page.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> Even more-so off topic, Are there any free websites out there? Kinda like weebly?






I don't know of any free ones, but there are some furs out there that host furry sites for decent prices. I have never used places like godaddy.com so I don't know what their prices are unfortunately.


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> FA is not completely down! It is in read-only mode which is simply you cannot post or submit anything. People can still look at your page.



True. If you have an email for commission enquiries posted, you can still do business.


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## Delta (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Having a personal website is nice, but you still need to tell people where it is.. and where do you do that?  FA. And FA is down?


Read, for christ's sake, READ.

FA is in READ-ONLY mode. Links can still be clicked, directions can still be read.
Smart artists have their email addresses posted. Smart artists have links to other sites they can be reach on posted.
All of this can be accessed on FA right now. Exposure is irrelevent in your arguments, because its not being effected.
People who want to get ahold of you still can IF you made good business decisions and branched out like any competent entrepreneur would.


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## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Okay.  Everyone is saying "Artists need to branch out!  Artists need to branch out!"
> 
> WE KNOW.  ENOUGH ALREADY.
> 
> None of that helps us right here, right now.  You keep saying that we need to establish alternate contacts.  Let me put it this way: when I look someone up in a phone book and I see a phone number, I'm going to (reasonably) assume that the phone number listed will work.  Now, if I call that number and find out that the house has been destroyed in a tornado or whatever, what happens?  I can't just call the (now-dead) number and say, "Hey, man, what's your cell number?"



You see those little contact things on your profile? Yeah that's kinda their purpose. That was a terrible analogy because you can still contact the artist in read-only mode. FA may be down but it's not like you can't browse.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Some of us can't afford web hosting fees, though.



That's like crying you can't afford art supplies to be an artist.

You kinda have to have the money for these things and shop wisely. You can even get hosting for cheap and just have to pay your own domain name.


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> I don't know of any free ones, but there are some furs out there that host furry sites for decent prices. I have never used places like godaddy.com so I don't know what their prices are unfortunately.



hmmm. I'll have to look into this. It might be a good investment to put up a site, and then an add on FA so that it gets traffic. 
HMMMMMM.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> FA is not completely down! It is in read-only mode which is simply you cannot post or submit anything. People can still look at your page.






Yes, though it has totally gone down quite a few times, and people still cannot write notes, post new submissions, update users,  etc. It is nice to look at art that is already there, but nothing else can be done right now.


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## Ehrinlove (Dec 15, 2013)

Artists can only do half of the work here though. Sure having a spot on other sites, or their own site, or and e-mail  up is great... if the people bother to go looking for their page and try to contact them versus just waiting till the outage is over... many users of FA wont do that be they lazy, loyal, or unwilling to do one of the above for various reasons


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> Read, for christ's sake, READ.
> 
> FA is in READ-ONLY mode. Links can still be clicked, directions can still be read.
> Smart artists have their email addresses posted. Smart artists have links to other sites they can be reach on posted.
> ...



Not all of us started as entrepreneurs.  Some of us started on the site just for fun, and it turned into something more.  Artists don't tend to be good at business and planning (hence the hundreds of awesome furry comics that die slow, painful deaths, abandoned and neglected).  There are exceptions to that, of course, but the fact remains.  Most of us didn't START as business-minded artists - we just gained exposure slowly until it became a viable thing.  Then we came to depend more on it.  Obviously we know NOW that we need to branch out, but we weren't thinking about it at the time.


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## GamerFox (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Neer's had a heart attack or something from the stress cuz his Twitter's been silent for a whole day.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

For those asking about hosting services: Doteasy is 25 per year and they're pretty easy to deal with.  I've 3 sites with them.

EDIT: Link to basic hosting plan ->  http://doteasy.com/web-hosting/basic.cfm


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> I'm pretty sure Neer's had a heart attack or something from the stress cuz his Twitter's been silent for a whole day.



I wouldn't blame him for wanting to avoid FA users right now.


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> For those asking about hosting services: Doteasy is 25 per year and they're pretty easy to deal with.  I've 3 sites with them.



Is it pretty simple to set up? I haven't played with html/css in at least five years. x _ x


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## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> All the backpeddling? From what? I have been saying the same thing the whole time, that branching out on other sites wont get you as much traffic as you will here. Please, tell me where I have said something to the contrary.
> 
> Having a personal website is nice, but you still need to tell people where it is.. and where do you do that?  FA. And FA is down? well then new people won't get to come to your website.
> 
> There is no "eggshell" argument there. Others have been making the same argument as I have been. It makes perfect sense to anyone with a mind open enough to look past their own bias and understand how important FA is to many people.



Clearly no one agrees because you think the entire furry art community revolves around Furaffinity.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> Is it pretty simple to set up? I haven't played with html/css in at least five years. x _ x



They actually have templates and stuff you can use and a gallery, too. I'm not too fond of how the gallery is laid out, but it's got folders etc. etc.  If you can get someone to help make a basic layout for your site then uploading via FTP is pretty simple, too.


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## Wyebirdy (Dec 15, 2013)

-Eats popcorn-

Mmm, I'm loving this argument about Artists branching out. As an artist who has accounts on other art sites, they have no where near as much attention as my FA account. Mainly because they are either 'clean' sites, or do no cater to anthropomorphic art. Also, I used to have a commissions email on my profile. And some fur thought it would be amusing to sign my email address up to MANY online companies/shops, so now it gets swamped with news, offers and all sorts of stuff. Which of course forced me to take my email down and rely on the notes system for the time being.

Though have to admit, after this outage, I may have to look into making my own website. Paying for it though would be trouble, as all the money I make from art goes towards my rent and bills. Yes, art is my job (Officially self employed) and I do try to branch out as much as I can. But, I just find FA the best place to find clients for work. So, I'm happy to wait for it to come back on at it's own pace, even if it means I won't make enough for rent. But that isn't FA's fault, and I'm not about to blame them :]

But I'm sure FA will be back up and running in no time! Fingers crossed though, eh? :]


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> You see those little contact things on your profile? Yeah that's kinda their purpose. That was a terrible analogy because you can still contact the artist in read-only mode. FA may be down but it's not like you can't browse.



It's not a terrible analogy.  Do you list your cell phone number in the phone book?  Of course you don't.  Because if you did, it would be an endless stream of telemarketers and people who would try to take advantage of you.  I have a Skype, but I only give it out to people who have _already commissioned_ me because I don't want just any random fur to be able to contact me at all hours of the day and night.  I'm not saying there aren't better options for artists to manage themselves.  I'm just sick of people treating it like we have no right to be upset, when we do have a very LEGITIMATE reason to be angry about the lack of updates.


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarukai said:


> Clearly no one agrees because you think the entire furry art community revolves around Furaffinity.



I think what they're trying to say is that without the advertisement of FA (journals, uploads)... without the COMMUNITY to see that you're offering commission... Then it's damn near impossible to make the money that you WOULD make WITH the community. 

Did that make sense? I just woke up from a nap. 

I agree with what you're saying though, don't get me wrong. Branching out and building your own community is a good idea. It just takes time and effort, and a lot of artists out there do not wannnt to put in the time and effort.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

Ehrinlove said:


> Artists can only do half of the work here though. Sure having a spot on other sites, or their own site, or and e-mail  up is great... if the people bother to go looking for their page and try to contact them versus just waiting till the outage is over... many users of FA wont do that be they lazy, loyal, or unwilling to do one of the above for various reasons



Getting money is hard work? Who would have thought. I was just hoping due to being born people would throw money my way because you know I'm entitled to it.

Just saying yes it's harder but that's kind of the point. Just because it seemed easier on FA doesn't mean you should count on it forever, or other places for that matter. Remember sites like Geocities and Tripod? A lot of artists got work through there too.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> Read, for christ's sake, READ.
> 
> FA is in READ-ONLY mode. Links can still be clicked, directions can still be read.
> Smart artists have their email addresses posted. Smart artists have links to other sites they can be reach on posted.
> ...





Can you argue without using insults?

FA is in read only mode now, it has gone down totally in the past where clicking links etc is not possible at all. Exposure is still relevant because artists cannot take new commissions until it goes out of read only mode. 


And as I said before in read only mode you cannot respond to notes, update your queue, post up new art that you have made, etc. 


Branching out has already been rehashed so many times, sometimes people don't have accounts on IB, Weasyl, SF, etc. That is why FA has more traffic than other sites because many don't feel like they  need to go to other sites.


----------



## Delta (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Not all of us started as entrepreneurs.  Some of us started on the site just for fun, and it turned into something more.  Artists don't tend to be good at business and planning (hence the hundreds of awesome furry comics that die slow, painful deaths, abandoned and neglected).  There are exceptions to that, of course, but the fact remains.  Most of us didn't START as business-minded artists - we just gained exposure slowly until it became a viable thing.  Then we came to depend more on it.  Obviously we know NOW that we need to branch out, but we weren't thinking about it at the time.



If you are an artist looking to make money off of your art and have setup commission information and pricing, you are an entrepreneur. The word is very fancy, yes, but its definition is "person who starts and business or money making process."
Comics really have nothing to do with business decisions. Webcomics die because artists: get busy with other things, lose interest, run out of ideas or get discouraged and never start. 
When you start following through on the idea "I want to make money from my art." that is getting into the business state of mind. When you started depending on it is when you should have thought about branching out.
You learned a lesson the hard way, sucks. Whats your point?



seaweed said:


> Can you argue without using insults?
> 
> FA is in read only mode now, it has gone down totally in the past where clicking links etc is not possible at all. Exposure is still relevant because artists cannot take new commissions until it goes out of read only mode.
> 
> ...



I wasn't insulting you in that post, but Im starting to regret it because you are showing you're more than deserving of it.

We're not talking about the times that FA has gone down before, we're talking about the situation right now. How does the past even play into this? You are literally arguing about nothing.
Will you take a moment to put two and two together? Artists post links to other places where they are available. People looking for commissions from said artists click these links. BUSINESS CONTINUES ELSEWHERE.

Branching out has been repeated so many times because its GOOD IDEA for anyone who wants to conduct business. You and other artists who have made the same bad decisions should be taking this as a lesson learned, not demand FA pay you for "lost income".


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's like crying you can't afford art supplies to be an artist.
> 
> You kinda have to have the money for these things and shop wisely. You can even get hosting for cheap and just have to pay your own domain name.



Exactly. I'm not even an artist and I have my own website and domain. Only costs $15 a year for the domain, and $7 a month for hosting. If someone can't afford that, they have much worse problems than FA being down. ^^;


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## damien tokala (Dec 15, 2013)

whats wrong with inkbunny?


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

damien tokala said:


> whats wrong with inkbunny?



One word: cub.

And don't start arguing about _that_ too.


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> I think what they're trying to say is that without the advertisement of FA (journals, uploads)... without the COMMUNITY to see that you're offering commission... Then it's damn near impossible to make the money that you WOULD make WITH the community.
> 
> Did that make sense? I just woke up from a nap.
> 
> I agree with what you're saying though, don't get me wrong. Branching out and building your own community is a good idea. It just takes time and effort, and a lot of artists out there do not wannnt to put in the time and effort.






Thank you.   Yes, that is what I am trying to say. I am not anti branching out to other sites, I am just saying that FA will give you the most "bang for the buck" when it comes to people seeing your art and commissions.


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## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> If you are an artist looking to make money off of your art and have setup commission information and pricing, you are an entrepreneur. The word is very fancy, yes, but its definition is "person who starts and business or money making process."
> Comics really have nothing to do with business decisions. Webcomics die because artists: get busy with other things, lose interest, run out of ideas or get discouraged and never start.
> When you start following through on the idea "I want to make money from my art." that is getting into the business state of mind. When you started depending on it is when you should have thought about branching out.
> You learned a lesson the hard way, sucks. Whats your point?



My point is that we're tired of being treated like "it's no big deal".  For a lot of people, it IS.  There are some people who will be unable to pay bills because of this outage.  (Thankfully, I'm not among them.)  Whether it SHOULD be that way or not isn't the point.  Yeah, they made mistakes for becoming that dependent on a single website, but the fact remains that they're just out in the cold - and you and others like you are demonstrating a deplorable lack of compassion.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Thank you.   Yes, that is what I am trying to say. I am not anti branching out to other sites, I am just saying that FA will give you the most "bang for the buck" when it comes to people seeing your art and commissions.



Why is it taking you so many pages to argue about this then? No one has said that it doesn't provide exposure, they're saying it's not FA's problem that your income is being affected. Which is why you must plan accordingly and not complain in the even the site is not working.

This is an entertainment site, not a business site.


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## GamerFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Shouldn't we get back to railing against Yak's coding?


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## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Ehrinlove said:


> Artists can only do half of the work here though. Sure having a spot on other sites, or their own site, or and e-mail  up is great... if the people bother to go looking for their page and try to contact them versus just waiting till the outage is over... many users of FA wont do that be they lazy, loyal, or unwilling to do one of the above for various reasons





This is true. That is part of what I was trying to say. That not only does an artist have to have accounts on multiple sites, but the users do as well, and most of them do not.


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## Aleu (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> It's not a terrible analogy.  Do you list your cell phone number in the phone book?  Of course you don't.  Because if you did, it would be an endless stream of telemarketers and people who would try to take advantage of you.  I have a Skype, but I only give it out to people who have _already commissioned_ me because I don't want just any random fur to be able to contact me at all hours of the day and night.  I'm not saying there aren't better options for artists to manage themselves.  I'm just sick of people treating it like we have no right to be upset, when we do have a very LEGITIMATE reason to be angry about the lack of updates.


You know you have to agree to add someone in order for them to spam you, right?

I have a disclaimer on my page where I will state that unless you tell me who you are and why you're talking to me, I will not talk to you. There's also other sites I use where notes work as well. Holy shit it's a miracle.

You're angry about the lack of updates? Okay? How are updates relevant? The site will still be in read-only.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> My point is that we're tired of being treated like "it's no big deal".  For a lot of people, it IS.  There are some people who will be unable to pay bills because of this outage.  (Thankfully, I'm not among them.)  Whether it SHOULD be that way or not isn't the point.  Yeah, they made mistakes for becoming that dependent on a single website, but the fact remains that they're just out in the cold - and you and others like you are demonstrating a deplorable lack of compassion.



There isn't compassion for someone who lacks business sense and uses a website as business. Is it harsh? Yes, but like I said earlier, it you're upset you can't sell tamales on the street corner anymore and didn't take the steps to procure your own business permit and restaurant no matter how difficult. There's only so much to the sympathy train people can have.


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## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Why is it taking you so many pages to argue about this then? No one has said that it doesn't provide exposure, they're saying it's not FA's problem that your income is being affected. Which is why you must plan accordingly and not complain in the even the site is not working.
> 
> This is an entertainment site, not a business site.




I think its more so about people's attitudes towards the situation. Just because it's not a big deal to you doesn't mean it's not a big deal to the person next to you. Unfortunately people forget that a large majority of the people on FAF and. Life in general are complete assholes and do t care about your feelings or if they upset you.


----------



## Wyebirdy (Dec 15, 2013)

Can we just agree to disagree? Some artists *RELY* on FA, and some don't :] Don't see why people are making a huge deal about it.

Yes, some are screwed because it's down (Sadly I'm included in that) But I do not blame FA for this. It's not like I'm _STRICTLY_ stuck to only using FA. I can use other sites, I just get little to no interest at them. All I can do is try harder, and when I have the money, get my own website and the funds needed to advertise it out. And hope I can come up with the work I need to keep my home xD


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

damien tokala said:


> let them have their opinions. but all i know is, it's an ART form, and it keeps people out of trouble and out of jail. so yeah, FA has gone way downhill in that degree. why don't we just ban all porn on FA because it's related to bestiality?



This topic dies now or I'm banning the next person derailing it into this debate.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

Ohdear. This thread is exploding into nonsense of all kinds now. 


In case my stuff got lost in regards to webhosting:
doteasy is easy, has it's own website creator: http://doteasy.com/website-creator/
http://www.openwebdesign.org/ <-- also helpful for those that want to use html / css without actually making it. hurray!
Use doteasy's basic hosting plan. cheapest option and works the best for smaller sites.


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## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

Looks like we got off topic. lol Oopsie. 

FA! COME BACK! I MISS YOUâ™¥



InSaneJoker said:


> Ohdear. This thread is exploding into nonsense of all kinds now.
> 
> 
> In case my stuff got lost in regards to webhosting:
> ...



Thank you! I'm definitely looking into this for after the newyear when I have some extra cash.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

Wyebirdy said:


> Can we just agree to disagree? Some artists *RELY* on FA, and some don't :] Don't see why people are making a huge deal about it.
> 
> Yes, some are screwed because it's down (Sadly I'm included in that) But I do not blame FA for this. It's not like I'm _STRICTLY_ stuck to only using FA. I can use other sites, I just get little to no interest at them. All I can do is try harder, and when I have the money, get my own website and the funds needed to advertise it out. And hope I can come up with the work I need to keep my home xD



But in the end, it's your problem, not FA's.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Yes, though it has totally gone down quite a few times, and people still cannot write notes, post new submissions, update users,  etc. It is nice to look at art that is already there, but nothing else can be done right now.



I would like to say at the very least it is in read only. This means for example, if you didn't save a copy of a reference for a commission, you can still view that reference. If you didn't save a copy of important bits from existing notes, you can still read those notes. You can still browse. It just means for the time being nothing new can be uploaded and you will have to contact artists/customers via a different line. If I may this is something people really need to commit to.

You always want to keep a copy of things references, other ways to communicate etc. That way if anything you are running on goes down, you still have a way to contact. Artists should be in the habit of making sure they don't put all the eggs in one basket when it comes to references, and contact. Always have a separate email and make that available when you do commissions.


----------



## Ozriel (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> This topic dies now or I'm banning the next person derailing it into this debate.



Second this. I am going to be heavy-handed the next off-topic post or report I see...I guess that's an advantage to wearing plate armor.
So with this knowledge, post at your own risk.


----------



## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

I won't lie, I am definitely curious as to why there has been no word from Yak. I won't pretend I know anything about what his job entails.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> My point is that we're tired of being treated like "it's no big deal".  For a lot of people, it IS.  There are some people who will be unable to pay bills because of this outage.  (Thankfully, I'm not among them.)  Whether it SHOULD be that way or not isn't the point.  Yeah, they made mistakes for becoming that dependent on a single website, but the fact remains that they're just out in the cold - and you and others like you are demonstrating a deplorable lack of compassion.






I have to admit that if people rely on FA to pay bills, that is rather dangerous, given its lack of stability. Thankfully I am not among them either. 

There are issues on both sides of this argument. It is hard for people not to rely on FA because of its size. It is nice to have backups on other sites and such, but it is impossible to argue that no matter what you will never see as many people as you will on FA.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

Wyebirdy said:


> Can we just agree to disagree? Some artists *RELY* on FA, and some don't :] Don't see why people are making a huge deal about it.
> 
> Yes, some are screwed because it's down (Sadly I'm included in that) But I do not blame FA for this. It's not like I'm _STRICTLY_ stuck to only using FA. I can use other sites, I just get little to no interest at them. All I can do is try harder, and when I have the money, get my own website and the funds needed to advertise it out. And hope I can come up with the work I need to keep my home xD



This is exactly my feelings and situation. I am unable to work so I use furry art as a way to help make money. I use emails, Skype, have my own website and am on almost every site known to man. But where does most if not all of my business come from? FA. Why?  Because that's where the furries are at. The only other time I get real good business outside FA is at cons. Again, because that's where the furries are at. I don't blame FA for any money I have lost BUT I am extremely aggravated at the poor ownership and coding. Having owned and managed several sites over many years I just have no tolerance for the level of ignorance involved with FA. I could go into details, but as previous outages and offers for help have shown, nothing will change. I just push people towards other sites when I can :3


----------



## Delta (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> My point is that we're tired of being treated like "it's no big deal".  For a lot of people, it IS.  There are some people who will be unable to pay bills because of this outage.  (Thankfully, I'm not among them.)  Whether it SHOULD be that way or not isn't the point.  Yeah, they made mistakes for becoming that dependent on a single website, but the fact remains that they're just out in the cold - and you and others like you are demonstrating a deplorable lack of compassion.


Its a big deal for the individuals who made the decision not branch out. 
The onus falls solely on you as your money making is your responsibility. 
Complaining about that here is ridiculous and annoying.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Aleu said:


> You know you have to agree to add someone in order for them to spam you, right?
> 
> I have a disclaimer on my page where I will state that unless you tell me who you are and why you're talking to me, I will not talk to you. There's also other sites I use where notes work as well. Holy shit it's a miracle.
> 
> You're angry about the lack of updates? Okay? How are updates relevant? The site will still be in read-only.



Don't insult my intelligence, please. Of course I know that you have to accept contact requests.

And updates are, in fact, very relevant. Since you seem to know so much about business, look at it this way. What happens if a store just puts a "we're closed" sign on the door? Nobody goes to it. Oh, they keep their merchandise in the windows and keep the lights on (before you bring up the worn-out "it's not down, it's read-only" argument again), but if the store's closed, people don't buy from it. Maybe you even have two stores - but if one of your stores closes, that's still a pretty sizable chunk of revenue.

If I go to a store and see that it's closed but it has something I want, I want to know when it will be open again, so that I can come back. If the store says "we'll be open on Saturday at 8" and then isn't, I'm going to just try and find the same product elsewhere. 

Eventually, that store WILL go out of business if it keeps doing that. And I think we can all agree that no one here wants to see FurAffinity fail.  (Hope this doesn't count as off-topic - trying to bring things back to the discussion at hand)


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> I won't lie, I am definitely curious as to why there has been no word from Yak. I won't pretend I know anything about what his job entails.



yak is also in a different time zone so he may not be able to reply right now.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> But in the end, it's your problem, not FA's.



They never said it was FA's problem. No need to be rude.


----------



## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> yak is also in a different time zone so he may not be able to reply right now.



Not trying to argue, I swear. 
But. 

How does his timezone affect him giving an update? He has to wake up sometime. D: 

I won't say he's a villain, I'm just curious is all.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Dec 15, 2013)

Please remember that we understand many people's frustrations. We understand you wish to see more updates, and know more about what is going on. If you resort to petty insults, or uncivil posting you will be handled. If you want this thread to stay open everyone needs to play nice.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> yak is also in a different time zone so he may not be able to reply right now.



Has he said anything at all during this? If so, I missed it. If not, I don't think time zone has much to do with it - unless he took a vacation and this is all a huge result of 'bad timing'.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> Has he said anything at all during this? If so, I missed it. If not, I don't think time zone has much to do with it - unless he took a vacation and this is all a huge result of 'bad timing'.





I have not seen him post at all in this forum so far.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> Its a big deal for the individuals who made the decision not branch out.
> The onus falls solely on you as your money making is your responsibility.
> Complaining about that here is ridiculous and annoying.



I'm not trying to put the responsibility on FA for this.  I know they're working to get it back up as fast as they can.  And coding inadequacies aside, I know no one was consciously saying, "Let's just take the site down and screw ALL the furries!"  I'm not whining about lost money.  I'm complaining about the fact that we're not being given updates about it - even a "We still don't know how long it will be" is better than dead silence, because that tells us that there is communication going on.  If the site's gonna be down for another month, people need to know so that they're not just waiting in the wings.  Yeah, we need to branch out - I'm on SoFurry and Tumblr in addition to here - but as others have stated, other sites DO NOT HAVE the level of traffic that FA has.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

RyuuYouki said:


> They never said it was FA's problem. No need to be rude.



I'm not being rude. I'm being very honest. The site being down as an entertainment site is an inconvenience. It's frustrating, but it should not be brought up as a blame for not being able to procure income as it's not the primary purpose of FA. Everything has been mentioned several times that most things you need to access if you need to complete a commission or read a note is still within a person's facility.

You cannot hold FA accountable for this issue, bringing it up in the thread isn't helping those people or producing sympathy. So please stop expecting it, nor "well people use FA for different things" this is acknowledged but again this isn't supposed to be the place for sympathy for your issue, this is to find out when the site is to be back up.

Learn to understand the difference and a lot of things you think are being said to be hurtful actually aren't.


----------



## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> I'm not being rude. I'm being very honest. The site being down as an entertainment site is an inconvenience. It's frustrating, but it should not be brought up as a blame for not being able to procure income as it's not the primary purpose of FA. Everything has been mentioned several times that most things you need to access if you need to complete a commission or read a note is still within a person's facility.
> 
> You cannot hold FA accountable for this issue, bringing it up in the thread isn't helping those people or producing sympathy. So please stop expecting it, nor "well people use FA for different things" this is acknowledged but again this isn't supposed to be the place for sympathy for your issue, this is to find out when the site is to be back up.
> 
> Learn to understand the difference and a lot of things you think are being said to be hurtful actually aren't.



Oh my fucking god. 

Take her word if no one elses. Why is this such a difficult concept to accept?


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> You cannot hold FA accountable for this issue, bringing it up in the thread isn't helping those people or producing sympathy. So please stop expecting it, nor "well people use FA for different things" this is acknowledged but again this isn't supposed to be the place for sympathy for your issue, this is to find out when the site is to be back up.



I, for one, am not here LOOKING for sympathy.  I'm looking for ANSWERS.  I'm looking for when the site will be back up.  What I found was a rough ETA of "tonight", and a bunch of people saying "FA is down, get over it" treating it like it doesn't matter to people that the site is down.  I'm not asking for sympathy - I'm asking for people to quit belittling the ones who legitimately depend on the site.  Maybe it's their problem for depending on the site, but there's no need to be histrionic about it.  Someone says "I need FA because I use it to make money," and someone else says, "Well, you're stupid then."  Oh, they give a bunch of legitimate reasons, but they put them forward in a very belittling way.  That's no way to have a civil discussion.


----------



## Blackheart the wolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> Guys, I notice a lot of insults being thrown around.
> 
> Its fine if you want to debate things, but please be civil about it.


 I don't mean to bug you but will the site still be able to be up tonight like you mentioned in an earlier status post?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 15, 2013)

Again, then stop bringing up issues with income and stick to the topic of "When is FA going to be up" making a lot of posts arguing this point produces what? It doesn't matter if you're not looking for sympathy, but if you're arguing about it and stating your reasons - when if you don't want them challenged when it really isn't anyone's business why you use FA - you bring in your own can of worms.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> I, for one, am not here LOOKING for sympathy.  I'm looking for ANSWERS.  I'm looking for when the site will be back up.  What I found was a rough ETA of "tonight", and a bunch of people saying "FA is down, get over it" treating it like it doesn't matter to people that the site is down.  I'm not asking for sympathy - I'm asking for people to quit belittling the ones who legitimately depend on the site.  Maybe it's their problem for depending on the site, but there's no need to be histrionic about it.  Someone says "I need FA because I use it to make money," and someone else says, "Well, you're stupid then."  Oh, they give a bunch of legitimate reasons, but they put them forward in a very belittling way.  That's no way to have a civil discussion.





 Thank you. This was very well said. I think a lot of people here are just very frustrated that it has taken so long to get it back up, and we are taking it out on each other, and I think that there is a lot of blame to go around about that, me included of course. 


But you said it better than I could.


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

Blackheart the wolf said:


> I don't mean to bug you but will the site still be able to be up tonight like you mentioned in an earlier status post?



That's what I last heard. However, I haven't heard from powers that be since this morning. I'm really hoping they get things up and running before tomorrow morning, but its getting late. :c


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Can you not initiate a conversation with them?


----------



## Blackheart the wolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> That's what I last heard. However, I haven't heard from powers that be since this morning. I'm really hoping they get things up and running before tomorrow morning, but its getting late. :c


 I really hope so.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> That's what I last heard. However, I haven't heard from powers that be since this morning. I'm really hoping they get things up and running before tomorrow morning, but its getting late. :c



which "powers" would those be anyway


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Can you not initiate a conversation with them?


I haven't gotten a response from them since this morning. I assume they're busy.


PheagleAdler said:


> which "powers" would those be anyway


Dragoneer, mainsite admins, etc. Those higher up on the FA power chain than myself.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> Dragoneer, mainsite admins, etc. Those higher up on the FA power chain than myself.


Considering they left the forum staff to play damage control, you'd think they'd be more willing to pass more information down the chain.

As a reminder, forum staff are ranked as normal users of the mainsite.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova, I just have to say that your icon probably reflects everyone's mood pretty well right now X3

But thanks for letting us know what you know.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AthenaLash said:


> _-munches popcorn amusingly-_



On today's episode of _As the Furry Turns_...


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Can you not initiate a conversation with them?



You would think so, but the ENTIRE BASIS OF OUR PROBLEMS IS THE LACK OF COMMUNICATION.

The mods aren't being told anything, the coding/support staff is quiet and even *Dragoneer, **the SITE OWNER AND ADMIN* _doesn't know_ what's going on. Does anyone else see the problem here?

I'm  willing to go to bat here and say that Yak has the entire coding of FA  kept to himself, won't share it or take any help from any member of the  community (because let's face it, people have been volunteering left and  right to help for ages now and been met with nothing) and we're  constantly faced with downtime because of Yak's incompetence! I'm also  willing to bet that 'Neer won't get rid of Yak, but it's that *he can't* because the site will fall into chaos on the back end and for him to accept help from the community would force 'Neer admit he's wrong, which I have a feeling won't happen.


----------



## Wyebirdy (Dec 15, 2013)

Indeed I was not blaming FA in the slightest, but hey ho, nevermind!



At least this down time is letting me get some work done, even if I can't contact most of my commissioners :O Before someone accuses me of blaming FA again for this, I'm really not :/ It's my fault for not creating a new and more private email for commissions in time before FA went in 'read only mode' xD lol. It's just simply unfortunate that FA is down.

But yes, I'm sure FA will be up again soon when the higher ups have sorted out everything. Just think shouting out more updates (Even if they seem mundane) should keep most people happy, just so they know what's going on :] I just think most of the anger is simply coming from people who feel.... out of the loop? I dunno, all I know is I would be happy with more updates. But I'm also happy to wait for as long as needed, gives me time to try and sort out other means of communication and joining other sites while I wait.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Wyebirdy said:


> Indeed I was not blaming FA in the slightest, but hey ho, nevermind!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wish there was a way to click "this" a hundred times for this post.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Bottom line is this: Will the site be ready to go by midnight tonight?


----------



## Chazykins (Dec 15, 2013)

Talking to Mentova  If you get another update and its not about furaffinity being back up and theres yet another problem or they have to delay it again, please for the love of cookies. Do not say "ETA tonight" "it should be up soon" "should be up at this time" because you are just gonna cause a lot more fights, and more frustration. Unless you ABSOLUTELY know whats gonna happen. Don't put out false hope. Not saying anything mean, I know everyone is working hard and we all appreciate it very very much.  But for anyone's sake don't put out false hope unless you know whats really gonna happen. 

Just like being a doctor you can't tell a cancer patient they will live for ever, because you don't exactly KNOW whats gonna happen. So just say, "we are doing the best we can we will see what happens" and just zip it from there. ~

That sounded rude. I am sorry. lol


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> Bottom line is this: Will the site be ready to go by midnight tonight?



No.


----------



## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

Here's hoping dragoneers silence means they're working hard to fix things.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> Bottom line is this: Will the site be ready to go by midnight tonight?


I doubt it. It's almost 10pm EST.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> Here's hoping dragoneers silence means they're working hard to fix things.



I'd say it's more likely he's hunkered down waiting for the storm to pass.


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

Chazykins said:


> Talking to Mentova If you get another update and its not about furaffinity being back up and theres yet another problem or they have to delay it again, please for the love of cookies. Do not say "ETA tonight" "it should be up soon" "should be up at this time" because you are just gonna cause a lot more fights, and more frustration. Unless you ABSOLUTELY know whats gonna happen. Don't put out false hope. Not saying anything mean, I know everyone is working hard and we all appreciate it very very much.  But for anyone's sake don't put out false hope unless you know whats really gonna happen.
> 
> Just like being a doctor you can't tell a cancer patient they will live for ever, because you don't exactly KNOW whats gonna happen. So just say, "we are doing the best we can we will see what happens" and just zip it from there. ~
> 
> That sounded rude. I am sorry. lol


The part with the ETA wasn't my words, they told me tonight was the ETA for it coming back up :c

But I guess its called an estimated time of arrival for a reason. You guys do have every right to be annoyed though. I wish I could apologize without sounding like a broken record at this point.


----------



## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> I'd say it's more likely he's hunkered down waiting for the storm to pass.


If that's the case, I really pitty the guy.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Well, thankfully, it IS in read-only and not completely down.  I'm working on a 24-character-large Christmas group picture, so that's got me frazzled enough as it is!  ^^  But thankfully, I can still get to a lot of the ref sheets and stuff that I need (and might actually download a few so that when they DO get around to replacing the hard drives, I can still get to them).


----------



## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Some of us can't afford web hosting fees, though.



If I can colocate an old Mac Mini for $40 a month, on a government salary, you can find a good web host for cheap.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The part with the ETA wasn't my words, they told me tonight was the ETA for it coming back up :c
> 
> But I guess its called an estimated time of arrival for a reason. You guys do have ever right to be annoyed though. I wish I could apologize without sounding like a broken record at this point.



It's not your fault, and I don't think people are mad at you directly, more that you got bad information from two MIA people who are in charge of the site. It's not the fact FA is down, it's the fact that there's the lack of presence from the owner, programmer and an extreme lack of information being told to those who care about the site and want to know what's going on, even if it's horrible stuff going on.


----------



## Sar (Dec 15, 2013)

teil said:


> Here's hoping dragoneers silence means they're working hard to fix things.


Or realistically sick of hearing the complaints about FA's outage from hearing about it all week


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 15, 2013)

Delta said:


> Read, for christ's sake, READ.
> 
> FA is in READ-ONLY mode. Links can still be clicked, directions can still be read.



<facepalm> Of course! Why, I should go to my page right now, and put in...a....reference...to...

Um...can I change stuff on my profile in Read Only Mode?


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The part with the ETA wasn't my words, they told me tonight was the ETA for it coming back up :c
> 
> But I guess its called an estimated time of arrival for a reason. You guys do have every right to be annoyed though. I wish I could apologize without sounding like a broken record at this point.



Is it weird that you're sorta reminding me of Radar O'Reilly from M*A*S*H with the way you're handling this?  (Don't panic.  It's a compliment.)  I'm glad you're keeping us informed as much as you can.  Thanks for that!


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> It's not your fault, and I don't think people are mad at you directly, more that you got bad information from two MIA people who are in charge of the site. It's not the fact FA is down, it's the fact that there's the lack of presence from the owner, programmer and an extreme lack of information being told to those who care about the site and want to know what's going on, even if it's horrible stuff going on.


I'm thinking that Dragoneer might've just been busy today. I've been trying to talk to him while this has been going on, but he's been silent since this morning. He might be out and about.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Um...can I change stuff on my profile in Read Only Mode?



If it does anything other than reading, it can't do it.

tl;dr - No.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The part with the ETA wasn't my words, they told me tonight was the ETA for it coming back up :c
> 
> But I guess its called an estimated time of arrival for a reason. You guys do have every right to be annoyed though. I wish I could apologize without sounding like a broken record at this point.



We appreciate your time and help. At least you are doing what you can. If we may ask, how do you get in contact with Neer?  It seems kinda shady on his end to be so silent since the morning hours with his own staff.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I'm thinking that Dragoneer might've just been busy today. I've been trying to talk to him while this has been going on, but he's been silent since this morning. He might be out and about.



If he has twitter, a quick posting to tell us that would be alright. There can always be time made for something, unless something super major happened outside this. Then I'd totally understand.


----------



## kevincorgi (Dec 15, 2013)

â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†*wow*â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€‹â€†*so downtime
*â€†â€†*pls fix*â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†*v sad
*â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€‹â€†*why waiting

*Seriously though, how has this taken nearly 6 days?  The only other failure on this level that I can think of was the PSN hack.  I really cannot think of any other website of this size and popularity that has been down for more than a couple days in a row.


----------



## teil (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I'm thinking that Dragoneer might've just been busy today. I've been trying to talk to him while this has been going on, but he's been silent since this morning. He might be out and about.



Well if that's true, then I'd have to shake my finger and give him a few tsk's.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> No.



Damn shame because I have a few pictures I'd like to upload and I am already peeved at the Cowboys losing today.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

RyuuYouki said:


> We appreciate your time and help. At least you are doing what you can. If we may ask, how do you get in contact with Neer?  It seems kinda shady on his end to be so silent since the morning hours with his own staff.



I tried messaging him on Twitter but got no response.  Honestly, I think it'd be best to leave poor 'Neer alone at this point and let him sort through this.


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

RyuuYouki said:


> We appreciate your time and help. At least you are doing what you can. If we may ask, how do you get in contact with Neer?  It seems kinda shady on his end to be so silent since the morning hours with his own staff.



I talk to him through Skype. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm sure he has just been busy today. Lets not jump to conclusions and assume the worst, as hard as it can be at times.


----------



## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> <facepalm> Of course! Why, I should go to my page right now, and put in...a....reference...to...
> 
> Um...can I change stuff on my profile in Read Only Mode?



Go ahead and try it.


----------



## Wyebirdy (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The part with the ETA wasn't my words, they told me tonight was the ETA for it coming back up :c
> 
> But I guess its called an estimated time of arrival for a reason. You guys do have every right to be annoyed though. I wish I could apologize without sounding like a broken record at this point.



TBH, it's not at all your fault. At least you are finding the time to talk to us troubled and impatient lot :] 

So actually, thank you for taking the time to keep us as informed about the situation as you can


----------



## AthenaLash (Dec 15, 2013)

Wasn't the previous topics much more peaceful? I think it's gone from coding discussions/critique to now argument about whether or not people should care about the site being down.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Apparently most people's sarcasm meter is broken here when it comes to Max Goof's post.


----------



## STrRedWolf (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I'm thinking that Dragoneer might've just been busy today. I've been trying to talk to him while this has been going on, but he's been silent since this morning. He might be out and about.



I'm assuming that Dragoneer is at the colo facility swapping hardware out with Yak and who else they have in tow.  Most colo facilities got enough electrical interference to rise into radio frequency levels, so I'm assuming until they get mail service running (which I doubt is) that we won't hear anything.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

kevincorgi said:


> â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†*wow*â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€‹â€†*so downtime
> *â€†â€†*pls fix*â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†*v sad
> *â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€†â€‹â€†*why waiting
> 
> *Seriously though, how has this taken nearly 6 days?  The only other failure on this level that I can think of was the PSN hack.  I really cannot think of any other website of this size and popularity that has been down for more than a couple days in a row.



Maybe he should just say "It'll be down for a month" to lower everyone's expectations. Then a week later he can say, "Surprise! We fixed it early!" A lot of users will be relieved, and everyone will forget about how screwed up FA is until it crashes again.


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I talk to him through Skype. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm sure he has just been busy today. Lets not jump to conclusions and assume the worst, as hard as it can be at times.



And where's Yak with all this?


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AthenaLash said:


> Wasn't the previous topics much more peaceful? I think it's gone from coding discussions/critique to now argument about whether or not people should care about the site being down.



There was talk about coding, but just as much vitriol.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I talk to him through Skype. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm sure he has just been busy today. Lets not jump to conclusions and assume the worst, as hard as it can be at times.






As people have already said, we are not mad at you at all, we are just frustrated that the ETA seems to keep getting pushed back and we are getting maybe one update a say if we are lucky. 

Its a minefield in here..


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> I doubt it. It's almost 10pm EST.



i wish i could be sure, but i can't. I'm not going to be like "oh it's nearly 10 PM now so the site's DEFINITELY not going to be up tonight"


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> The part with the ETA wasn't my words, they told me tonight was the ETA for it coming back up :c
> 
> But I guess its called an estimated time of arrival for a reason. You guys do have every right to be annoyed though. I wish I could apologize without sounding like a broken record at this point.



There's no reason for you to apologize, you're just the messenger.


----------



## Mentova (Dec 15, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> And where's Yak with all this?



To be honest, I've literally never talked to the man.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> i wish i could be sure, but i can't. I'm not going to be like "oh it's nearly 10 PM now so the site's DEFINITELY not going to be up tonight"



It leaves, as of now, about 1 hour left until the 'tonight' deadline can be passed. It's possible it'll be up, but I am not holding my breath.


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> To be honest, I've literally never talked to the man.



I say this again with respect towards you because I understand you're just the middle fox in all this.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same can be said for most of the mod team.


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> To be honest, I've literally never talked to the man.



Doesn't surprise me, seeing as even 'Neer claims to be left in the dark. I'm sure even a small squeak from him at this point will make people happy.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> To be honest, I've literally never talked to the man.



Maybe he's just a legend O_O


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> To be honest, I've literally never talked to the man.






I get the feeling that the VAST MAJORITY of FA staff, even high up, is the same way. 

I am beginning to wonder if he exists, like the yeti, or the Loch Ness Monster.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> Maybe he's just a legend O_O



Maybe he doesn't exist.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 15, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> Maybe he doesn't exist.



Touche.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I talk to him through Skype. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm sure he has just been busy today. Lets not jump to conclusions and assume the worst, as hard as it can be at times.



Sorry, as I mentioned I have managed and owned sites with some intensive coding before so silence like this from the owner will always be unacceptable to me. I get he has a life, but then there should be a "second in command" for when he can't be on top of things. Yak should be held accountable and Dragoneer, as owner, is accountable for yak. A site owner having zero clue what is going on with his own site is a huge issue. When I ran my site the site managers had my phone number. If there was an issue they couldn't solve or if say the site needed fixing I was informed ASAP and the info was I immediately passed down the line.  Heck, as a site manager on a pet site my department heads had my number as well. On several occasions I had to get my bum outta bed to handle an issue. Oh and that was as a Free staff member. When you commit yourself to something you go above and beyond. Period. Kinda like you are doing. I expect the same and more from the owner.


----------



## Blackheart the wolf (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> I wish there was a way to click "this" a hundred times for this post.


 I second that. More frequent updates would be nice lol.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Okay, things were starting to calm down in here and now they're starting to get heated again.

Don't make me pull out the guitar for a round of "Kum Bah Yah".

BECAUSE I WILL.


----------



## Accountability (Dec 15, 2013)

STrRedWolf said:


> I'm assuming that Dragoneer is at the colo facility swapping hardware out with Yak and who else they have in tow.



You do know that Yak lives in Moldova, right?


----------



## BakedGewds (Dec 15, 2013)

*twiddles hoof thumbs anxiously*
I'm not a very patient person.. why oh why can't I wait patiently?
/cri


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> It leaves, as of now, about 1 hour left until the 'tonight' deadline can be passed. It's possible it'll be up, but I am not holding my breath.



"tonight" is a rather vague ETA though...I think that could include LATE NIGHT like almost 6 AM or something


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Okay, things were starting to calm down in here and now they're starting to get heated again.
> 
> Don't make me pull out the guitar for a round of "Kum Bah Yah".
> 
> BECAUSE I WILL.



This is turning my brain to mush, but I can't look away.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> "tonight" is a rather vague ETA though...I think that could include LATE NIGHT like almost 6 AM or something


Anything past 12am is early morning.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> Anything past 12am is early morning.



Semantics.


----------



## ImmortalDragon (Dec 15, 2013)

*Randomly poofs in from the blue* Kinda new to FAF, so hi everyone. 

I noticed how a lot of people are arguing and bickering, but nothing's being accomplished by this. I understand the plight of both the users and the Forum Admins; having been both myself and trust me; it's not an easy job to be had. The fact that most of the FA staff are vounteers is amazingly awesome of them to sacrifice their time, only to have people here get their backs up for something out of their control. 

If it were up to me, I'd advise everyone to look at 'neer and Yak, it's painfully clear the system is broken; so let's send them a message. I invite every single member of FA to abandon googling it, posting on it, donating to it or otherwise referencing it in any way for 24 hours. I know a lot of you all rely on FA for your commissions and such, so I wouldn't dream of asking this of you now, just before Christmas, but think about it, if we can get them to listen to what we have to say and remove the underlying issue of bad software coding practices, I truly believe FA can come out of this better than before.

But then that's just one guy's opinion; take from it what you will.

tl;dr? Too bad.


----------



## Blackheart the wolf (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> If he has twitter, a quick posting to tell us that would be alright. There can always be time made for something, unless something super major happened outside this. Then I'd totally understand.


 From what I can see he has not posted anything to his Twitter about the status of the site since yesterday.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

ImmortalDragon said:


> -snip-


Been there, done that, go away.


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

ImmortalDragon said:


> *Randomly poofs in from the blue* Kinda new to FAF, so hi everyone.
> 
> I noticed how a lot of people are arguing and bickering, but nothing's being accomplished by this. I understand the plight of both the users and the Forum Admins; having been both myself and trust me; it's not an easy job to be had. The fact that most of the FA staff are vounteers is amazingly awesome of them to sacrifice their time, only to have people here get their backs up for something out of their control.
> 
> ...



Good luck getting over thousands to do that. There's so many more potential sites out there, but artists will refuse to leave FA because the customers refuse to. FA Read-only mode isn't a big deal to people just looking. All that'll happen is they won't get to see new art. They have no reason to move to another site like artists would unless the site was completely down.


----------



## ImmortalDragon (Dec 15, 2013)

Etiainen said:


> Been there, done that, go away.



Did say it was one guy's opinion. No need to get nasty

EDIT: Whoops fail quote Haha.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

Accountability said:


> You do know that Yak lives in Moldova, right?



Your avatar seems to go well with this post.


----------



## Salem Kylar (Dec 15, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> Good luck getting over thousands to do that. There's so many more potential sites out there, but artists will refuse to leave FA because the customers refuse to. FA Read-only mode isn't a big deal to people just looking. All that'll happen is they won't get to see new art. They have no reason to move to another site like artists would unless the site was completely down.



It got silenced, edited, then reopened, but how about everyone takes a look at this?

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/842635-Proposed-Idea


----------



## ZakRhyno (Dec 15, 2013)

Mentova said:


> I've done customer service -and- IT before! Do I win?
> 
> In all seriousness though, Raptros and I have been keeping you guys updated as much as possible. This has been a slow and painful process. Stupid servers :c



Your last update was 08:00 today it is current 22:00, things are still offline. Update?


----------



## kayfox (Dec 15, 2013)

ImmortalDragon said:


> I noticed how a lot of people are arguing and bickering, but nothing's being accomplished by this.



I gave up on this discussion a while ago, I will probably come back with the discussion gets around to actual useful things rather than arguing about semantics and updates.  I do know that in situations like this if there is nothing to force communication and something happened that would upset alot of people or the progress is delayed...  noone wants to announce it, kinda a situation where your screwed either way.

I think this outage is useful in proving to those people who dont take a proactive approach to avoiding this problem by using more than one communication method and perhaps more than one site that they are very vulnerable to the site dropping out from under them.  It does appear that you can access notes, so its not really that much of an outage, just a bit of irritation.  People bitten by this should take a proactive approach to this sort of disaster mitigation, use more than one site, keep notes on your commissions saved to your computer and backup everything.

Now would be a good time to work on planning... perhaps a discussion on how to deal with outages like this in the future... for admins and users alike?


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

ZakRhyno said:


> Your last update was 08:00 today it is current 22:00, things are still offline. Update?



Probably not forthcoming. Forum admins know as much as we do.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

ZakRhyno said:


> Your last update was 08:00 today it is current 22:00, things are still offline. Update?



Neer hasn't given them any new info so unfortunately there isn't an update to give us.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

kayfox said:


> Now would be a good time to work on planning... perhaps a discussion on how to deal with outages like this in the future... for admins and users alike?



Well, since it probably is inevitable, why not?


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Well, since it probably is inevitable, why not?




Because we have had those discussions before and they get ignored :/


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Well, since it probably is inevitable, why not?



Because if the past is any indication, it's a waste of time, since nothing suggested will be heeded anyway.  Sorry to sound cynical, but that seems to be the general pattern here.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

RyuuYouki said:


> Because se we have had those discussions before and they get ignored :/



I meant brainstorming ideas for things to do, like "go for a walk," "go ride a bike," "make out with your significant other" (furries like doing this, right?). Because, clearly, we're having trouble with this.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> I meant brainstorming ideas for things to do, like "go for a walk," "go ride a bike," "make out with your significant other" (furries like doing this, right?)




Ahhh ok. Well I like those things. Can't speak for all furries though.


----------



## Duraji (Dec 15, 2013)

Accountability said:


> You do know that Yak lives in Moldova, right?



Which makes me further wonder why he's the site coder when he doesn't even live anywhere near the servers, or how he'd have such an important friendship with Dragoneer that he has to remain on staff as the only coder despite proving to be unable to handle the job. And before anyone tells me that there would be no coder if he were let go, there are tons of people who would really happily jump at the chance to fix things. Yes, the site might be down for a tiny bit longer, but it would potentially lead to something amazing. Worst case scenario someone could build a totally new FA and import all the old data onto it.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> I meant brainstorming ideas for things to do, like "go for a walk," "go ride a bike," "make out with your significant other" (furries like doing this, right?)



Hehe.  Cute, but the mods would probably call that off-topic.  The key here is discussing updates on the outage.  And since we've had no word, I think it's fair to say that we probably won't know anything until at least tomorrow.  But who knows!  I could be wrong (I hope I am).


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 15, 2013)

kayfox said:


> I will probably come back with the discussion gets around to actual useful things rather than arguing about semantics and updates.


The reason why no one discusses anything useful is because FA is too incompetent to implement anything that may come of it.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Hehe.  Cute, but the mods would probably call that off-topic.  The key here is discussing updates on the outage.  And since we've had no word, I think it's fair to say that we probably won't know anything until at least tomorrow.  But who knows!  I could be wrong (I hope I am).



Probably, but it's better than arguing.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Probably, but it's better than arguing.






NO IT ISN'T!!!




(kidding, kidding.)


----------



## ArcdAM (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm sure FA is just waiting to surprise everyone by announcing the restoration of the site in tandem with Valve's imminent announcement of Half life 3.

On a more serious note:

1. FA, seriously, the method of communication needs to be overhauled. The fact that my professor who teaches at 2 colleges, teaching 2 different programs(Business and computer branches), operates an electronics repair home business, is a contractor for the space coast, gets at least a few dozen messages every week from students and peers through his multiple emails, and is currently pursuing a PhD in engineering can get back to me in less than 24 hours with paragraphs/detailed messages on helping me with my assignments while you can barely get a 3 sentence update out every 24 hours is not acceptable.

2. If you don't know, then don't keep us in the dark. I'm not saying you should take people on board(though that would be nice), I'm saying if you don't know and can't find proper answers...then for pete's sake just ask the community. Someone is bound to know something about the issue.

3. When all is said and done, I do expect some sort of final notice in regards to this. What the problem was(to the best of your understanding), why it occured, what you did to fix it(Throwing more hardware at it isn't a magical guarantee of fix. Stop doing this dammit), what you're doing to make sure that the chance of this happening again is vastly reduced(or eliminated if possible) in the future, and how you intend to execute that. Some links to terminology and or articles/research would help.

/end speaking


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Which makes me further wonder why he's the site coder when he doesn't even live anywhere near the servers, or how he'd have such an important friendship with Dragoneer that he has to remain on staff as the only coder despite proving to be unable to handle the job. And before anyone tells me that there would be no coder if he were let go, there are tons of people who would really happily jump at the chance to fix things. Yes, the site might be down for a tiny bit longer, but it would potentially lead to something amazing. Worst case scenario someone could build a totally new FA and import all the old data onto it.



If he lives in Russia, can we not simply cut him loose? Get someone from the US to handle all the coding, someone who can, you know, drive to where the servers are located or something.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

seaweed said:


> NO IT ISN'T!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In other news, a new study has concluded that FOOD leads to GUN VIOLENCE.  In 100% of all cases involving gun violence, the perpetrator had consumed FOOD during the week before the incident.

Well, that settles it.  Time to ban food.  Argue with THAT logic :3


----------



## Salem Kylar (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> If he lives in Russia, can we not simply cut him loose? Get someone from the US to handle all the coding, someone who can, you know, drive to where the servers are located or something.



I, again, reference my thread that is of a related topic.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/842635-Proposed-Idea


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> In other news, a new study has concluded that FOOD leads to GUN VIOLENCE.  In 100% of all cases involving gun violence, the perpetrator had consumed FOOD during the week before the incident.
> 
> Well, that settles it.  Time to ban food.  Argue with THAT logic :3



All politicians are crooks. The Pope is a politician. Therefore the Pope is a crook.

(It might be nearing time to lock this thread.)


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> All politicians are crooks. The Pope is a politician. Therefore the Pope is a crook.
> 
> (It might be nearing time to lock this thread.)



God is love, and love is blind.  Ray Charles is blind, ergo Ray Charles is God.

(And I agree, more or less.)


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> All politicians are crooks. The Pope is a politician. Therefore the Pope is a crook.
> 
> (It might be nearing time to lock this thread.)




But then how else will we waste away all this wonderful free time FA being in read only mode has given us?


----------



## Willow (Dec 15, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Which makes me further wonder why he's the site coder when he doesn't even live anywhere near the servers, or how he'd have such an important friendship with Dragoneer that he has to remain on staff as the only coder despite proving to be unable to handle the job.


Location and ability to do work are irrelevant to each other. You might as well limit the site staff to anyone who lives in New Jersey so they all live in the same time zone and location. 

In which case, you'd be letting go a pretty good chunk of the staff. 

I'm not saying there's someone who couldn't better do the job or that Yak is great at his job, before someone inevitably tries to say I am, but you have to understand that he could be from the US and still do a poor job. 


> And before anyone tells me that there would be no coder if he were let go, there are tons of people who would really happily jump at the chance to fix things. Yes, the site might be down for a tiny bit longer, but it would potentially lead to something amazing.


The keyword is potentially. 



> Worst case scenario someone could build a totally new FA and import all the old data onto it.


Given that people rely wholeheartedly on FA to be up so they can do business, making them wait even longer while they build an entirely new site and do this would take even longer. 

Even if someone else did it.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> But then how else will we waste away all this wonderful free time FA being in read only mode has given us?



Just go to another section of the forum and talk about random stuff there.


----------



## AliothFox (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Just go to another section of the forum and talk about random stuff there.



Or maybe we need to make an "Outage Lounge thread" where we can talk about stuff without griping.  Just some place to chill.


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Just go to another section of the forum and talk about random stuff there.



You missed the sarcasm there.


----------



## idejtauren (Dec 15, 2013)

When will the site be up?
Soon*â„¢*


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

idejtauren said:


> When will the site be up?
> Soon*â„¢*



More like soon*

* Ferrox Art LLC cannot be held accountable if this promise is misinterpreted, or broken.


----------



## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> Or maybe we need to make an "Outage Lounge thread" where we can talk about stuff without griping.  Just some place to chill.



And get it locked. General chat isn't allowed in any form on the forum.


----------



## AmaruKaze (Dec 15, 2013)

I am already accepting bets when backlog of the artists ( aka not published submissions ) will force Furaffinity down on its knees.

I bet there will be another outage or at least I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it happens. There will be people blaming the artists for updating their galleries as they are their port-folios but the most important and largest group will be those who finally get that FA is like a diamond on a landmine, touch it a bit and it will crash. So I am just waiting, not expecting a properly working site until end of December.


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> If he lives in Russia, can we not simply cut him loose? Get someone from the US to handle all the coding, someone who can, you know, drive to where the servers are located or something.



To put it bluntly, it's probally because if Yak had 'Neer any tighter by the balls, 'Neer would break the sound barrier with how high pitched his voice got.

Yak most likely has the mentality that the site is pretty much his because of the coding he wrote which he won't let anyone change, much less see, and can do things his way on his time. If 'Neer, the Staff and User base don't like it, they can sit and spin.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 15, 2013)

AliothFox said:


> In other news, a new study has concluded that FOOD leads to GUN VIOLENCE.  In 100% of all cases involving gun violence, the perpetrator had consumed FOOD during the week before the incident.
> 
> Well, that settles it.  Time to ban food.  Argue with THAT logic :3






*puts down the doughnut she was about to eat*


Well, I guess I will starve then!  Food is overrated anyways.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

AmaruKaze said:


> There will be people blaming the artists for updating their galleries



Their galleries are their portfolios. I never commission anyone without going through their gallery first.


----------



## Wyebirdy (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't plan to upload anything til everyone else has finished their mass upload xD Because I sense that happening as soon as FA stops being in Read Only Mode lol


----------



## chesse20 (Dec 15, 2013)

wow a lot of ppl here really mad about fa being down voted the thread 1 star
at least they are doing matiece to the site and not playing video games instead


----------



## Terror-Run (Dec 15, 2013)

Wyebirdy said:


> I don't plan to upload anything til everyone else has finished their mass upload xD Because I sense that happening as soon as FA stops being in Read Only Mode lol



same xD I've only got 2 notes to send to be up to date with everything, I've already made them ready for sending, just need to copy paste the text from the notepads and hit send  (not willing to bet the site will stay up that extra minute it takes to write them). Ofc we could be wrong and it's a nice a steady, not lagging FA - I just somehow have a few doubts.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 15, 2013)

Site goes down -> owner apologises. Site goes down -> owner apologises. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Rob Ford would be proud.


----------



## Judge Spear (Dec 15, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Site goes down -> owner apologises. Site goes down -> owner apologises. Wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> Rob Ford would be proud.



Sounds like Satoru Iwata. lol


----------



## DrakeDragon (Dec 15, 2013)

Just thought I'd clear up a little confusion some people are having about the responsibilities and physical locations of web programmers:

FA's servers are located in a colo (co-location) facility. This means that the physical computers are in a building along with dozens or even hundreds of other servers for other websites. No one has to be physically present at the colo facility to administrate the site's software, because all of it is done over the internet. Yes, Yak can do his job from Moldova.

And on that subject, site coding and server hardware administration are two very different jobs. Sometimes, especially on smaller sites, those jobs are performed by one person. Hardware administration requires actual physical presence, which Yak doesn't have. So no, FA's coders aren't -- and don't have to be -- responsible for installing/maintaining the server hardware. They can give input on what kinds of hardware would run the software best, but ultimately it's down to someone who knows hardware best and knows what the site can afford.


----------



## Soul_Wesson (Dec 15, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> Maybe he's just a legend O_O



What, like some kinda ghost story told to freak out potential coders? ;P


----------



## kontonakuma (Dec 15, 2013)

Soul_Wesson said:


> What, like some kinda ghost story told to freak out potential coders? ;P



Guess we know why there aren't any new coders on the team.


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 15, 2013)

Time's up! No new info, it appears. Frustrating.


----------



## BlitheDragon (Dec 15, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Time's up! No new info, it appears. Frustrating.




Not that I wouldn't love for the site to be up and running or at least an update, it's only 11pm for me. I'm being cautiously (albeit somewhat foolishly) optimistic!


----------



## Drakkenmensch (Dec 16, 2013)

Should we just start preparing for the site just collapsing under its own weight? Because at this point I'm starting to get the impression that there's no actual progress going on and this is just an elaborate game of truth or dare about how long we'll hang on before we move on to a website that's actually working.


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 16, 2013)

Drakkenmensch said:


> Should we just start preparing for the site just collapsing under its own weight? Because at this point I'm starting to get the impression that there's no actual progress going on and this is just an elaborate game of truth or dare about how long we'll hang on before we move on to a website that's actually working.



I'm concerned about the site's future as well. It was one of the reasons I took my page down.


----------



## Wyebirdy (Dec 16, 2013)

I do have my fingers crossed that FA will be back soon, though I am making preparations to move my art over to other websites - Just in case. Just looked at Weasyl for the first time, and it actually looks really good. But FA with still be my main place to go, I just hope it recovers :[


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Do you have any information on why Dragoneer is forced to keep Yak around? That sounds like blackmail to me.



It's pure speculation based on available facts and what we've seen/heard with every downtime.


----------



## zachhart12 (Dec 16, 2013)

DrakeDragon said:


> Yes, Yak can do his job from Moldova.





Shiekra Tora said:


> It's pure speculation based on available facts and what we've seen/heard with every downtime.



If I was 'Neer, I'd go to colo, yank the server out, find a new coder and be like DONE.


----------



## Jashwa (Dec 16, 2013)

I may not follow the situations, but I've never seen Yak blackmail Neer or act like he owns the place or anything to any of the staff. That's just you all being silly and rumor monging, unless there are shady private chats that somehow got leaked or something that just happened to not become public knowledge. 

Stop with the baseless accusations and stuff please, y'all?


----------



## kevincorgi (Dec 16, 2013)

chesse20 said:


> wow a lot of ppl here really mad about fa being down voted the thread 1 star
> at least they are doing matiece to the site and not playing video games instead



6 days of downtime with extremely vague and sporadic status updates?  Could have fooled me.

This is either incompetence or neglect.  Either way, it reflects poorly on FA's Administrator.


----------



## Tailmon1 (Dec 16, 2013)

Not trying to add any fuel to the fire but my prediction of a full week is becoming true come
midnight. I have moderated two large forums like this one over the years and each one did
a huge change over and each took a week or more to happen.


----------



## AmaruKaze (Dec 16, 2013)

Jashwa said:


> I may not follow the situations, but I've never seen Yak blackmail Neer or act like he owns the place or anything to any of the staff. That's just you all being silly and rumor monging, unless there are shady private chats that somehow got leaked or something that just happened to not become public knowledge.
> 
> Stop with the baseless accusations and stuff please, y'all?



Hit dogs bark...


----------



## Jashwa (Dec 16, 2013)

AmaruKaze said:


> Hit dogs bark...


I don't follow your meaning.


----------



## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 16, 2013)

Delta said:


> Dude, are you fucking daft?
> Do you have ANY understand of basic business practices?
> Its called exposure. You get it by not putting all of your eggs in one basket and *branching out* into other areas to access a larger audience.
> An artist that relies on commissions from income should most definitely be putting there name and work in multiple places because while FA is definitely a hub for the fandom, its not the only place for the fandom.
> ...



I have branched out. Ready?
http://about.me/austinwolfclaw
http://austinwolfclaw.tumblr.com
http://facebook.com/austinwolfclaw
http://twitter.com/austinwolfclaw
http://livestream.com/austinwolfclaw
http://furnation.com/austinwolfclaw
http://furaffinity.com/user/austinwolfclaw
http://austinwolfclaw.deviantart.com
http://inkbunny.com/AustinWolfclaw
http://sheezyart.com/austinwolfclaw
http://carnivores.comicgenesis.com
http://aryion.com/g4/user/AustinWolfclaw
http://Writing.Com/authors/austinwolfclaw

Skype: Austinwolfclaw
ICQ: 41578943
Yahoo: AustinWolfclaw
MSN: AustinWolfclaw @ live.com
email: austinwolfclaw at aim, yahoo, gmail, live dot com
Xfire: Austinwolfclaw
Steam: Austinwolfclaw
Raptr: AustinWolfclaw
SecondLife: Austin Buckenburger
---
There. Branched out enough for ya?


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## zachhart12 (Dec 16, 2013)

AustinWolfclaw said:


> I have branched out. Ready?
> http://about.me/austinwolfclaw
> http://facebook.com/austinwolfclaw
> http://twitter.com/austinwolfclaw
> ...



You're missing a weasyl account


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 16, 2013)

AustinWolfclaw said:


> I have branched out. Ready?
> http://about.me/austinwolfclaw
> http://facebook.com/austinwolfclaw
> http://twitter.com/austinwolfclaw
> ...



If this is how much work it'll take to be a "real furry"... gaaah.


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## Soul_Wesson (Dec 16, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> Guess we know why there aren't any new coders on the team.



My own speculation from what I've read from others (so this is obviously hearsay) is that he does in fact act in such a way that it scares off the new coders 'Neer pulls in. It could be from that he's so proud of the old code, while there obvious flaws, that he can't stand someone else fiddling with it. Or it could just be communication barriers in general. He is from Russia, while from what I've seen, most of the volunteer coders are from this side of the globe. 

But...The ghost story idea sounds much better, I think. >w<


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## kontonakuma (Dec 16, 2013)

Soul_Wesson said:


> My own speculation from what I've read from others (so this is obviously hearsay) is that he does in fact act in such a way that it scares off the new coders 'Neer pulls in. It could be from that he's so proud of the old code, while there obvious flaws, that he can't stand someone else fiddling with it. Or it could just be communication barriers in general. He is from Russia, while from what I've seen, most of the volunteer coders are from this side of the globe.
> 
> But...The ghost story idea sounds much better, I think. >w<



I think we all speculate the same thing. But the ghost story is better.


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## Soul_Wesson (Dec 16, 2013)

zachhart12 said:


> You're missing a weasyl account



Also a tumblr. XD


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## nrr (Dec 16, 2013)

kevincorgi said:


> This is either incompetence or neglect.  Either way, it reflects poorly on FA's Administrator.



I vote both. Having been around the block a few times, I think I have enough data points to conclude it's both.


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## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 16, 2013)

Soul_Wesson said:


> Also a tumblr. XD



I have a tumblr. Will add that. Thanks for reminding me.
http://austinwolfclaw.tumblr.com

i forgot to add http://Writing.Com/authors/austinwolfclaw as well lol


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## Soul_Wesson (Dec 16, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> I think we all speculate the same thing. But the ghost story is better.



So we can all get this straight.

Yak doesn't exist.
He's a Russian legend/folklore, and is used in a variety of horror stories to scare away any potential coders as a test of strength.

I like this. 8D


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## GamerFox (Dec 16, 2013)

We need an old priest and a young priest.


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## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 16, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> We need an old priest and a young priest.


But not a catholic priest.


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## Duraji (Dec 16, 2013)

I keep being told that I need to hear both sides of the story because I'm somehow being unfair to Dragoneer (who I am friends with) and Yak. So then where's Dragoneer and Yak's side of the story? How come Dragoneer hasn't updated his twitter in 24 hours when he usually updates it several times an hour? How come there has never been a really clear communication from site owners and admins to mods? I'm okay with people defending them if there are points I'm missing, but why won't anyone tell me them? They seem more interested in censoring people than actually helping fix the unease.

If they're completely unwilling to say what's actually going on, then of course it's going to look like they don't care, and then the only stories we get are going to be the bad ones when bad things happen. People need to stop white knighting them, and they need to actually let us know what's going on, then at least I would stop being so pessimistic about everything.


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## seaweed (Dec 16, 2013)

Soul_Wesson said:


> So we can all get this straight.
> 
> Yak doesn't exist.
> He's a Russian legend/folklore, and is used in a variety of horror stories to scare away any potential coders as a test of strength.







  AH HA!  I knew I was right!   VINDICATED!!!


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## Jashwa (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> How come Dragoneer hasn't updated his twitter in 24 hours when he usually updates it several times an hour?


Yak murdered him to take control of FA once and for all. 



			
				Duraji said:
			
		

> If they're completely unwilling to say what's actually going on, then of course it's going to look like they don't care, and then the only stories we get are going to be the bad ones when bad things happen. People need to stop white knighting them, and they need to actually let us know what's going on, then at least I would stop being so pessimistic about everything.


I suspect that it tends to be because no matter what he says, people will be angry about it. That's not a fact or an insider opinion, but just a guess. I don't talk to the guy personally because he's usually busy with main site stuff and not forum stuff, but I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to have people jump down your throat no matter how "safe" the reply tends to be.


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## chicobo329 (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I keep being told that I need to hear both sides of the story because I'm somehow being unfair to Dragoneer (who I am friends with) and Yak. So then where's Dragoneer and Yak's side of the story? How come Dragoneer hasn't updated his twitter in 24 hours when he usually updates it several times an hour? How come there has never been a really clear communication from site owners and admins to mods?



Dragoneer has been rather stressed over this situation (as some of his tweets actually indicate), it'd be safe(ish) to assume he's been trying to relieve it by taking a break from Twitter and from people trying to prod him. The forum mods have said before that they can't really give any information that they aren't given. 

As for Yak, his silence is rather telling.


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## Radivel (Dec 16, 2013)

Soul_Wesson said:


> So we can all get this straight.
> 
> Yak doesn't exist.
> He's a Russian legend/folklore, and is used in a variety of horror stories to scare away any potential coders as a test of strength.
> ...



Its not just a ghost story but a code name for an abominable animal that we allow to pull the wait around. *is shot*


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## Soul_Wesson (Dec 16, 2013)

seaweed said:


> AH HA!  I knew I was right!   VINDICATED!!!



Vindication has never been so sweet, eh? XD


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## TyraWadman (Dec 16, 2013)

Hurmigurd! Let's get mad at this one guy for trying to fix the issue, and get mad that he isn't stopping to tell us what the issue is! 
This guy never gives updates! 
So unless I'm looking at it wrong, why does his name come up in the other SiteStatus threads? 

Dragoneer doesn't know what's going on! He must be bad/ There must be a conspiracy! 
They're working with the NSA! 
Maybe the poor guy pulled an all nighter from the pressure and got sick from it? Maybe he's in the hospital with a blood clot in his leg? Maybe he's out with a heart attack from his blood pressure spiking? Maybe there has been an incident in the family and they don't have the ability to leave their side to say "Brb"? 

As a side note: I've always had an alternate way of contacting me (not that I ever get commissions hue) but even then nobody seems to like using it out of paranoia or never notice it or something.

*ASIDE FROM THAT*

I remember when I first tried joining FA. Literally wasn't letting you make an account. So I forgot about it for x amount of years. 

I'll be fair with time but 'after' (however long that takes I.E possible glitches from overflowing arts) these updates and fixes, if the sight lacks any overall performance/general improvement, I think I'mma pack up my things anyway. No point sticking around if it's just gonna try and present the same mangled contraption every year- this time in *3D!!!!! *

And with what seems to be 0 'newly recruited staff members'- mostly referring to trouble tickets since it seems there's been none answered, some dating back to the beginning of the year on mine I believe. XD Not too worried about that but I refuse to use D.A. Aside from the obvious no adult content, their staff and general rule is ... 'retarded'. 

Someone drew lesbian art of my wolf OC? "You can't prove its yours unless you fill out this copyright claim and you needs these numbers and money and..." 
100% looks like my character down to the muzzle, colors, oh yea, and their name is the same and the person who had it made watches me. I guess that doesn't matter though, I need to pay money to say it was originally my idea? No thanks.

Before that my account got banned for some reason and it somehow ended up that my IP was accidentally placed on the list of IP's to ban. :I Done with that. 

I'm willing to check out the other sights. Just personally find making accounts for things to be a nuisance, especially when I don't know if I'll even like the layout/features enough to commit to it.


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## ShadowFur (Dec 16, 2013)

I think FA does not care much about their own site. I see Admins doing damage control all the time by deleting users posts instead of spending time on fixing the problem and keeping users informed. If FA kept us informed and worked on the problems they FA would have much less damage control. Just a matter of time. The less informed the users as you can see over time causes more irreversible damage making users look for other places to go, they will eventually get fed up and just leave fa. Its just a matter of time. FA's user turnover is horrid. Its jsut a matter of time. there is no an unlimited amout of people to keep making accounts. days are numbered.


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## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 16, 2013)

Soul_Wesson said:


> Vindication has never been so sweet, eh? XD


Vindictus is better.


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## seaweed (Dec 16, 2013)

I would celebrate with something sweet, but someone already showed a correlation between people who eat and people who use guns, so I am starving to death.


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## AmaruKaze (Dec 16, 2013)

Jashwa said:


> I don't follow your meaning.



Figure of speech here in Germany. Basically a nice term for people answering an accusation in a furious / offended way making the suspicion appear more valid and justified.


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 16, 2013)

ShadowFur said:


> I think FA does not care much about their own site. I see Admins doing damage control all the time by deleting users posts instead of spending time on fixing the problem and keeping users informed. If FA kept us informed and worked on the problems they FA would have much less damage control. Just a matter of time. The less informed the users as you can see over time causes more irreversible damage making users look for other places to go, they will eventually get fed up and just leave fa. Its just a matter of time. FA's user turnover is horrid. Its jsut a matter of time. there is no an unlimited amout of people to keep making accounts. days are numbered.



I'm sorry but that is terribly far from the truth. I do not know of a single person on staff that does not care about FA and it's users. Do you think we really don't care? It's past midnight and I have serious business to take care of later on today, but I'm here seeing what I can do about getting an update pushed through and so are a few other staff trying to keep things civil. This isn't about "Damage control". You can't have a thread about updates devolve into a mess of name calling and off topic banter. Then we wouldn't be doing our jobs would we?

We're working as hard as we can to get updates pushed. I'm sorry it's not any faster but it's a lot better than what it used to be back when I remember first even coming onto FA. FA has a come a long way and will push on to be a better site with better software, and better everything. Unfortunately were are still going to have hiccups here and there.


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 16, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> I'm sorry but that is terribly far from the truth. I do not know of a single person on staff that does not care about FA and it's users. Do you think we really don't care? It's past midnight and I have serious business to take care of later on today, but I'm here seeing what I can do about getting an update pushed through and so are a few other staff trying to keep things civil. This isn't about "Damage control". You can't have a thread about updates devolve into a mess of name calling and off topic banter. Then we wouldn't be doing our jobs would we?
> 
> We're working as hard as we can to get updates pushed. I'm sorry it's not any faster but it's a lot better than what it used to be back when I remember first even coming onto FA. FA has a come a long way and will push on to be a better site with better software, and better everything. Unfortunately were are still going to have hiccups here and there.



Please just put this thread out of its misery.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 16, 2013)

Folks, 

This the last time I'm warning about this, and 24 hour bans will be in place.

This is about the site status.
This is not about, if your finances are affected, cub porn/fetish issues etc..*continuing them after requests to stop - will result in 24 hour bans for derailment*

It's fine to ask about updates, and criticism about downtime in regards to FA but the rest of the topics are just derailment at this point. I think at 453 posts and counting there's no need to recycle the arguments of the past.


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## Blackheart the wolf (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I keep being told that I need to hear both sides of the story because I'm somehow being unfair to Dragoneer (who I am friends with) and Yak. So then where's Dragoneer and Yak's side of the story? How come Dragoneer hasn't updated his twitter in 24 hours when he usually updates it several times an hour? How come there has never been a really clear communication from site owners and admins to mods? I'm okay with people defending them if there are points I'm missing, but why won't anyone tell me them? They seem more interested in censoring people than actually helping fix the unease.
> 
> If they're completely unwilling to say what's actually going on, then of course it's going to look like they don't care, and then the only stories we get are going to be the bad ones when bad things happen. People need to stop white knighting them, and they need to actually let us know what's going on, then at least I would stop being so pessimistic about everything.


 I mean is it too much to post a couple updates every once in a while. I would even be satisfied with 1 update each day the site is down. At least it would put peoples mind at ease to know what's going on.


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## DannyAzazel (Dec 16, 2013)

chicobo329 said:


> Dragoneer has been rather stressed over this situation (as some of his tweets actually indicate), it'd be safe(ish) to assume he's been trying to relieve it by taking a break from Twitter and from people trying to prod him. The forum mods have said before that they can't really give any information that they aren't given.
> 
> As for Yak, his silence is rather telling.


I understand that he's stressed but he shouldn't avoid updating the users for 24 hours, that's just unprofessional. He needs to at least let people know what is going on, even if there is nothing new.

It's 10pm here but I'm not expecting the website to be back up by tonight.


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## Duraji (Dec 16, 2013)

I heard there's an official IRC room for the site staff and admins, is that how we got more updates recently? Has anyone been able to actually reach Dragoneer at all today? He hasn't updated his Twitter once since the 14th, which has gotten me very worried that something FAR worse has happened. Now I'm more worried for him than for this site, honestly! I really hope everything's going all right...

I'm also worried that there's a civil war breaking out here in the forums. I'm watching mods abuse their power and make fun of users, and one in particular edited one of my posts pretending that they banned me. That's not cool.


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## Jashwa (Dec 16, 2013)

AmaruKaze said:


> Figure of speech here in Germany. Basically a nice term for people answering an accusation in a furious / offended way making the suspicion appear more valid and justified.


I didn't realize I was furious or offended or came off that way. And I have not been keeping up with any of this stuff. It's just bothersome to see baseless accusations everywhere.


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## shebawolf145 (Dec 16, 2013)

He's updated his twitter since the 24th o.0

Edit: Ok so that reply button needs to go away and just leave the reply with quote...


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## kontonakuma (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I heard there's an official IRC room for the site staff and admins, is that how we got more updates recently? Has anyone been able to actually reach Dragoneer at all today? He hasn't updated his Twitter once since the 24th, which has gotten me very worried that something FAR worse has happened. Now I'm more worried for him than for this site, honestly! I really hope everything's going all right...



I personally think he just decided to take a break from everything.

Edit: Also, I think you typo'd there.


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## Radivel (Dec 16, 2013)

Now were finally getting topic and user control in here. XD
Anyways, There is no use posting anymore folks until someone pulls a magic bit of information to share with us all in here. As for those of you who are tired of waiting. 

There are other sites people are flocking to do business and other things. I suggest you all take a break and go look around or go plan out your journals. Maybe finish up on some commission work you don't gotta wait on details for. Otherwise this is just gotta be a an all nighter/morning whine fest. Seriously we have all learned what we can for this day. For some of us its the next one already.


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## shebawolf145 (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> I heard there's an official IRC room for the site staff and admins, is that how we got more updates recently? Has anyone been able to actually reach Dragoneer at all today? He hasn't updated his Twitter once since the 14th, which has gotten me very worried that something FAR worse has happened. Now I'm more worried for him than for this site, honestly! I really hope everything's going all right...
> 
> I'm also worried that there's a civil war breaking out here in the forums. I'm watching mods abuse their power and make fun of users, and one in particular edited one of my posts pretending that they banned me. That's not cool.



The 14th was just 2 days ago...not everyone uses their twitter all the time. Jussayin.


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## Duraji (Dec 16, 2013)

shebawolf145 said:


> The 14th was just 2 days ago...not everyone uses their twitter all the time. Jussayin.



Dragoneer usually posts dozens of times a day, that's why it's alarming now.


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 16, 2013)

Duraji said:


> Dragoneer usually posts dozens of times a day, that's why it's alarming now.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremlinology#Techniques


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## kontonakuma (Dec 16, 2013)

shebawolf145 said:


> The 14th was just 2 days ago...not everyone uses their twitter all the time. Jussayin.



When someone like 'Neer updates several times everyday, it's a bit unsettling to see no word from them at all for over 24 hours.


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## shebawolf145 (Dec 16, 2013)

kontonakuma said:


> When someone like 'Neer updates several times everyday, it's a bit unsettling to see no word from them at all for over 24 hours.



*shrugs* maybe he's just getting tired of being bombarded every time he gets on twitter :/


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 16, 2013)

Alright folks, we finally have an update to give you regarding the current situation. It also explains a bit about what is going on, and why it is taking so much longer to get this site back out of read only mode. With that I am going to close this thread. So look for the update about to go live in the next 5 or 10 mins or so (or sooner).


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