# 2 The Ranting Gryphon



## amatus (Mar 15, 2017)

Last night I heard that 2 Gryphon is not going to Anthrocon. Can anyone tell me why. I need one hundred percent fact with evidance to support any claim.


----------



## Dedskunk (Mar 15, 2017)

He's not going because AC canned him.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 15, 2017)




----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 22, 2017)

Oh, look, another update from the man himself.






I don't particularly watch or follow the guy but I actually feel bad for him, not to mention that the behavior exhibited by Anthrocon in regards to his show goes against many of the good values about this fandom, values it is supposed to be built on.


----------



## KageSakuraclown (Mar 22, 2017)

I feel so bad for 2


----------



## Sagt (Mar 22, 2017)

I do have to say that some of Gryphons posts were a bit questionable (in particular the suicide one); however, I still think that it was unreasonable to ban him from performing and make such a big deal out of what he wrote. Also, AC did a very poor job in explaining their motives.

Having said all that, many of the critics of ACs decision were very annoying about the whole situation as well.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 23, 2017)

2's a comedian. Some people take his shit seriously, we end up here. It's that simple, albeit sad.

2 should do his own livestream that he'd otherwise do on Anthrocon.


----------



## ferretsage (Mar 23, 2017)

Anthrocon >should< be able to ban him because it's their show and, as a privately run organization, they can decide what goes into it. "Free Speech" only protects you from reprisals that deny life and liberty from the government.

That said,

1) Furry, as a fandom, is fucked.

2) Furry conventions -- the whole idea -- is fucked.

3) 2 "The Ranting Gryphon" is just a preview for the rest of you fools.

4) Study Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs to understand items 1-3.


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 23, 2017)

ferretsage said:


> 3) 2 "The Ranting Gryphon" is just a preview for the rest of you fools



Ha-ha jokes on you, I've already been where he is and I'm not making that mistake again.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 23, 2017)

Mr. Fox said:


> Ha-ha jokes on you, I've already been where he is and I'm not making that mistake again.


Don't you get it? YOU FOO! We're ALL foo's!


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 23, 2017)

It's really quite something to see 2 play victim here. I'll be the first to admit I'm not entirely savy with 2 Gryphon and his current form of comedy, so I apologize if anything I've said is misinformed. With that out of the way, my impression of 2 Gryphon is that he's fond of shock jock comedy, but with a heavy dose of edgelord. I listened to some his shows a couple years back and if I recall correctly, a large part of his shows consisted of finding news stories where somebody died from their own stupidity and relentlessly mocking him. If he's changed that format (doubtful), well shame on me, I'm the idiot here.  Now, I'm quite aware comedy is a subjective, some people are into that. I've got to ask though, just how far can you take the ever popular fallback of "it's just satire" as a shield? It's a common fallback for many comedians, it's just a joke after all. I'm quite aware it's in a comedians job description to push the line, to push what is acceptable to say, but when you're directly insulting somebody who died, it's a personal attack, and it's horrifically cruel to the victim's family. That's okay though, it's satire. It's okay to disregard any sense of moral decency.

If those were just a once off thing, I'd not find it so disturbing, but it is a recurring thing, and I draw the line at him encouraging people who are suicidal to commit suicide, both the video and the tweet he made. It's fucking repugnant. I don't care what sort of "satirical" commentary you're hiding behind, the message that some emotionally damaged kid who was bullied by suicide deserved to die is sick. It's this fallacious reasoning that, "Well I get hate all the time and you don't see me doing it!" It's intellectually dishonest. People are different, they have different personality traits and they react differently to different situations. Could you honestly say that every one of your friends enjoy the same humor, would you tell the same black comedy joke to everybody you know and expect them to find it funny? The answer should be no.  I guarantee you a 12 year old kid is going to react to online bullying far differently than a grown adult. Are we really going to tote around and claim a depressed 12 year old kid with abusive parents is a moron for killing himself?

I'm sure I'll be painted as some hardcore SJW, but truthfully I consider myself a moderate, which seems to get me flack on both sides. I've unashamedly laughed at a couple racist jokes, ranging from White, Black, Asian and Jewish. I'm not a saint, and I've no problem with non-PC jokes. It's my belief that if nobody is pushing the line, then society will inevitably regress into censorship. In that same breath, it is perfectly possible to find an extreme into the other direction, KKK, lynch mobs, ect. For those reasons, I've always considered balance integral to society, it's so easy to indulge in either extreme. And in my opinion, encouraging suicide and laughing at suicide victims is an extreme, though obviously not comparable to something like the KKK. With 2, there seems to be a belief that comedy must correlate with an utter abandonment of morality, that you must go out to say the most disturbing sociopathic shit you can. After all that however, I don't think 2 should be outright censored from doing any shows there again. He is right in that it isn't entirely fair to the people who came to see him, I'll agree with that. Outright censorship is rarely the appropriate answer. It IS Antrocon's prerogative however, if they want to remove him. Honestly speaking though, I don't feel too upset over his removal and don't sympathize much with his situation. Can't say I'm sad he's gone.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 23, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> Jewish


Jewish isn't a race. Just sayin'.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 24, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Jewish isn't a race. Just sayin'.


I'm aware, I should have added something along the lines of culturally insensitive as well to better blanket the terms. Though, I presume the message I was expressing was clear enough for people to grasp what I was saying on a conceptual level.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 24, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> I'm aware, I should have added something along the lines of culturally insensitive as well to better blanket the terms. Though, I presume the message I was expressing was clear enough for people to grasp what I was saying on a conceptual level.


Not to sound like an insensitive moron, but humor is 100% subjective, mate. What you may find humorous/funny someone else doesn't. What you may find offensive someone else may not.

Also, there is no such thing as an offensive joke. Off colour, badly timed, poorly worded, in bad company, maybe. But nothing is offensive when it comes to humor.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 24, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Not to sound like an insensitive moron, but humor is 100% subjective, mate. What you may find humorous/funny someone else doesn't. What you may find offensive someone else may not.
> 
> Also, there is no such thing as an offensive joke. Off colour, badly timed, poorly worded, in bad company, maybe. But nothing is offensive when it comes to humor.



Of course humor is subjective, but satire does not render one invulnerable from consequence. Am I allowed to make a genuinely cruel jab at somebody who made headlines for dying of Agent Orange and when I receive backlash claim it's satire and for people to "get over it'? I can use the same line of reasoning, only I'm not an established comedian. Though, since 2 is an established comedian, it doesn't matter what comes out of his mouth, it's always shielded by the fact that it is "satire". I'd argue it's an inherently unfair standard. Even if it is satire, there are potential consequences for him pushing the message that those who are suicidal should just "do it". When humor is potential going to affect whether somebody takes their life or not, it doesn't matter what it is, it's hateful and destructive and only set's the precedent for even more blatantly hateful messages.

Consider, the subjects of 2's humor, people who die of stupidity. Consider the family's, would them knowing it's "humor" make it any less cruel or painful? Probably not, 2 knows this going on, his humor is being weighed against a specific target with little regard for how they receive it, he doesn't know any of them personally. Though, who am I to argue? It makes people laugh, so it's okay.

If somebody's sense of humor is predicated on laughing at death the of others, go for it, it seems pretty sick and sociopathic in my eyes, but if that's their bag, whatever, to each their own. Can't fault them for enjoying the humor in the end. Encouraging suicide though? No, that's true sociopathy, and you don't get the pass of humor for it, because that's when it truly has the power to have real life consequences. It's not out of the question to presume that a message like that could cause somebody to kill themselves, and if it that did happen would the message be the same? Just a joke brah? Does being a comedian mean you are forfeit of all consequences for your actions? There needs to be some baseline responsibly for what you say, comedian or not.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 24, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> Of course humor is subjective, but satire does not render one invulnerable from consequence. Am I allowed to make a genuinely cruel jab at somebody who made headlines for dying of Agent Orange and when I receive backlash claim it's satire and for people to "get over it'? I can use the same line of reasoning, only I'm not an established comedian. Though, since 2 is an established comedian, it doesn't matter what comes out of his mouth, it's always shielded by the fact that it is "satire". I'd argue it's an inherently unfair standard. Even if it is satire, there are potential consequences for him pushing the message that those who are suicidal should just "do it". When humor is potential going to affect whether somebody takes their life or not, it doesn't matter what it is, it's hateful and destructive and only set's the precedent for even more blatantly hateful messages. If somebody's sense of humor is predicated on laughing at death the of others, go for it, it's pretty sick and sociopathic in my eyes, but if that's your bag, whatever, to each their own. Encouraging suicide though? No, that's true sociopathy, and you don't get the pass of humor for it, because that's when it truly has the power to have real life consequences. It's not out of the question to presume that a message like that could cause somebody to kill themselves, and if it that did happen would the message be the same? Just a joke brah? Does being a comedian mean you are forfeit of all consequences for your actions? There needs to be some baseline responsibly for what you say, comedian or not.


Going to have to respectfully disagree, here.

Consequences? What consequences are we talking about here? No one is attacked by words. No one can be hurt by them. Words don't kill anyone.

You take responsibility for your ACTIONS. Your words are 100% context based. If you say for instance "Death to all Jews!" with no sense of sarcasm, irony or sense of satire, and based upon your actual beliefs and past actions/words and your location, that is you calling for the death of any specific group. And depending on the circumstances of to whom/where you said those words, can and will get you jailed.

Yes, you will find humor not to your liking. However, ostracizing, attacking, insulting and/or banning people whose humor does not fit yours I find disgraceful. A couple loud-mouthed people(aka, the minority) did not find 2 funny/humorous. The minority should not, and does not, control the majority.

And for the record: People laugh at death all the time. Are there deaths we can and can't joke about? Are there things we can and can't joke about? People are simply going to disagree and joke about it even more. It's part of human nature to NOT do what they're told.

That being said: Do I disagree with Anthrocons' actions on banning 2? Yes. However, I do respect their decision. It is indeed their right to ban anyone they please, for whatever reason they may find.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 24, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Going to have to respectfully disagree, here.
> 
> Consequences? What consequences are we talking about here? No one is attacked by words. No one can be hurt by them. Words don't kill anyone.
> 
> ...



There is a difference between targeting a normal, mentally stable human being and people on the brink of suicide. To somebody on the brink of suicide, fuck yeah words are going to have a pretty big sway over what they do. Because we are talking about mentally unhealthy people, who have been brought to their state by words. I'd have no problem if the targets were mentally stable people, go ahead, lay on them. And yeah, I was a bit harsh in deeming that type of humor socipathic, I'll accept that was inappropriate. Right, now here's were the line gets muddy, do you legitimately know 2 doesn't actually buy into the Social Darwinist belief that if you are stupid you deserve death? I'm not saying he is, nor am I saying he is not, but I am saying that yeah, while it is satire, is it a complete impossibility that his comedy is rooted in small facets  of his beliefs? I don't know the guy personally so I'm not going to claim either case.  Though, I do feel it is important to state. Satire can be a venue to voice opinions.

Things like what is and isn't appropriate to joke about are best handled by a case by case basis. What are we joking about? What is the context of their actions? How long ago did it happen? There are all kinds of variables to consider. And for the record, I didn't think it was the right thing to do to complete ban 2. I don't personally agree with his views, but censoring is the last way I would have responded. My point was, it's rather silly he's playing the victim card, and I don't personally think he has much basis to.


----------



## WendigoNasty (Mar 24, 2017)

I think a lot of the things 2 has said is highly inappropriate (IE his views on suicide) and while I believe that he has every right to his opinion on the matter, he must be prepared to accept consequences for holding said views.  We have to think about how Anthrocon wants to be seen, every person that holds a panel or show at the con is a representative of the convention's values and ideals, if the staff have determined that a performer no longer represents these values well then they have an obligation to remove them from the roster, in my opinion.  This isn't censorship, Anthrocon isn't saying he can't make his jokes or have his opinions ever, this is just the con expressing that they do not approve of or share 2 Gryphon's views.  I might have a different opinion on the subject if Anthrocon was a scholarly event where there was debate since I am very against 'no platforming' in academia, but Anthrocon is not such an event and therefore I don't hold it to those standards.  Preforming at an entertainment or fandom based convention is not a right, its a privilege that can be taken away at the con's discretion.

Maybe 2 should have stuck to joking about toasters...


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 24, 2017)

I think this thread has revealed a hypocrisy that a lot of edgy comedians have.
They insist that words can't hurt anybody, but then they play victim and accuse other people of ruining their careers for criticising them.
I thought you guys didn't think words could do any harm? 

A similar hypocrisy is revealed when people say that 'humour is subjective' but _then_ claim that jokes are, objectively, never offensive. If humour is subjective, then guess what, that means your ideas about whether jokes are offensive aren't objective_ either. _

Anyway, as others have said, Anthrocon is a private event so isn't obliged to host anybody who they don't think meets their standards of etiquette.
It is amazing that gryphon thinks he can represent it as a free speech issue; I think that's like doing a massive turd on free speech. Free speech doesn't exist in order to guarantee income for comedians who lose their platforms after saying nasty things. It's there to protect critics of the government from police oppression.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 24, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> There is a difference between targeting a normal, mentally stable human being and people on the brink of suicide. To somebody on the brink of suicide, fuck yeah words are going to have a pretty big sway over what they do. Because we are talking about mentally unhealthy people, who have been brought to their state by words. I'd have no problem if the targets were mentally stable people, go ahead, lay on them. And yeah, I was a bit harsh in deeming that type of humor socipathic, I'll accept that was inappropriate. Right, now here's were the line gets muddy, do you legitimately know 2 doesn't actually buy into the Social Darwinist belief that if you are stupid you deserve death? I'm not saying he is, nor am I saying he is not, but I am saying that yeah, while it is satire, is it a complete impossibility that his comedy is rooted in small facets  of his beliefs? I don't know the guy personally so I'm not going to claim either case.  Though, I do feel it is important to state.
> 
> Things like what is and isn't appropriate to joke about are best handled by a case by case basis. What are we joking about? What is the context of their actions? How long ago did it happen? There are all kinds of variables to consider. And for the record, I didn't think it was the right thing to do to complete ban 2. I don't personally agree with his views, but censoring is the last way I would have responded. My point was, it's rather silly he's playing the victim card, and I don't personally think he has much basis to.


I should've been more specific and have a broader and clearer distinction on what I meant, so I apologize for that. Targeting specific individuals, even if they are mentally healthy, is against the law, especially if you simply go and say "go kill yourself". The same goes for attacking specific individuals.

What is and isn't appropriate to joke about? Nothing is off the table. However, you do have to consider your situation at the time. There is a time and place for everything. However, keep in mind that 2's always had this "shock" factor to his humor and satire. When people are listening in on 2, they ought to at the very least understand what can and will pop up. Some people obviously didn't find him funny.

And now 2's going to have to learn from this, and go from there. I personally do not think any humor is too far, but some people did, and thus we're now here.



WendigoNasty said:


> I think a lot of the things 2 has said is highly inappropriate (IE his views on suicide) and while I believe that he has every right to his opinion on the matter, he must be prepared to accept consequences for holding said views.  We have to think about how Anthrocon wants to be seen, every person that holds a panel or show at the con is a representative of the convention's values and ideals, if the staff have determined that a performer no longer represents these values well then they have an obligation to remove them from the roster, in my opinion.  This isn't censorship, Anthrocon isn't saying he can't make his jokes or have his opinions ever, this is just the con expressing that they do not approve of or share 2 Gryphon's views.  I might have a different opinion on the subject if Anthrocon was a scholarly event where there was debate since I am very against 'no platforming' in academia, but Anthrocon is not such an event and therefore I don't hold it to those standards.  Preforming at an entertainment or fandom based convention is not a right, its a privilege that can be taken away at the con's discretion.
> 
> Maybe 2 should have stuck to joking about toasters...


Quite frankly, I think people should stop being so thin-skinned. It's ruining humor and satire. Case in point: Amy Schumer. Degraded to crappy vagina jokes.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 24, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> I should've been more specific and have a broader and clearer distinction on what I meant, so I apologize for that. Targeting specific individuals, even if they are mentally healthy, is against the law, especially if you simply go and say "go kill yourself". The same goes for attacking specific individuals.
> 
> What is and isn't appropriate to joke about? Nothing is off the table. However, you do have to consider your situation at the time. There is a time and place for everything. However, keep in mind that 2's always had this "shock" factor to his humor and satire. When people are listening in on 2, they ought to at the very least understand what can and will pop up. Some people obviously didn't find him funny.
> 
> And now 2's going to have to learn from this, and go from there. I personally do not think any humor is too far, but some people did, and thus we're now here.



Nothing is off the table, which can mean anything, can mean little Jimmy can bring a handgun and shoot up a school, Bob can take his Ferrari out for a spin, do 90 on the freeway and commit manslaughter. Now yes, those previous examples are against the law, but my point here is semantics. Sure you can say whatever the hell you want, doesn't mean it's right. I can say to little Jimmy that it's okay to beat and torture that dying deer towards a long painful death, and technically speaking I won't be legally accountable for anything. Does it make it right? Fuck no, it's fucking sick. So while yes, technically speaking anything is on the table, it doesn't make what is said right or justifiable. And yes, I'm going to compare my last example with encouraging suicide because they are on a similarly unethical levels. It doesn't matter what veil you cover it with, the message is disturbed. Yes, he's a shock jock, I get it, but his label really doesn't excuse what he did. Whether his intent is to entertain or not, it's still important to be aware of how far he's going, whether he personalty agrees with it or not. That is because words will have consequences, the speaker's perception will never be the same as the listener. Encouraging suicide, regardless of the veil is deplorable, I don't see any other way around that.

If people find humor in that, well great, good for them. The real ironic thing is, for whatever reason he tries to make himself out to be the victim. That speaks volumes more than Antrhocon banning him. And again, I'm not endorsing him to be censored, that's not right either, but his reaction to it could use some work, to put it lightly.


----------



## WendigoNasty (Mar 24, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> Quite frankly, I think people should stop being so thin-skinned. It's ruining humor and satire. Case in point: Amy Schumer. Degraded to crappy vagina jokes.



I agree to a point, the world can be nasty and people need to prepare for that, humor and satire can give people an extremely effective coping mechanism.  However, it is a two way street.  One can't just be a dick and spout all sorts of purposefully offensive stuff and then cry when people go 'hey, thats too far, we dont want to see you preform.'

Do I think 2 Gryphon has a right to his brand of humor, yes.  But Anthrocon also has the right to hire who the want and dismiss performers if they think someone is not representing their values correctly.  At the end of the day, AC has the final say and we should respect their decision.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 24, 2017)

WendigoNasty said:


> I agree to a point, the world can be nasty and people need to prepare for that, humor and satire can give people an extremely effective coping mechanism.  However, it is a two way street.  One can't just be a dick and spout all sorts of purposefully offensive stuff and then cry when people go 'hey, thats too far, we dont want to see you perform.'
> 
> Do I think 2 Gryphon has a right to his brand of humor, yes.  But Anthrocon also has the right to hire who the want and dismiss performers if they think someone is not representing their values correctly.  At the end of the day, AC has the final say and we should respect their decision.


I agree. It's Anthrocon's right to say who can and can't come to their con. If you are going around and actually looking for people to offend, you're just a moron, and will be accountable for your actions.

However, there are no laws on being offensive.


KimberVaile said:


> Nothing is off the table


Yes, nothing is off the table when it comes to satire and humor. But, you have to the very least, consider your immediate area/situation. The joke may actually not be appropriate for the situation you are in.


KimberVaile said:


> If people find humor in that, well great, good for them. The real ironic thing is, for whatever reason he tries to make himself out to be the victim. That speaks volumes more than Antrhocon banning him. And again, I'm not endorsing him to be censored, that's not right either, but his reaction to it could use some work, to put it lightly.


My sense of humor knows no bounds.

As for 2 making himself out to be a victim: Is that what you're getting out of the videos? Well, by all means, mate. I, however, see it differently.

And thus, I respectfully agree and disagree with the both of you.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Mar 24, 2017)

ferretsage said:


> Anthrocon >should< be able to ban him because it's their show and, as a privately run organization, they can decide what goes into it. "Free Speech" only protects you from reprisals that deny life and liberty from the government.
> 
> That said,
> 
> ...



Oh shit you're back. I missed your wicked burns


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 24, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> I agree. It's Anthrocon's right to say who can and can't come to their con. If you are going around and actually looking for people to offend, you're just a moron, and will be accountable for your actions.
> 
> However, there are no laws on being offensive.
> 
> ...



Well that's what I mean by a case by case basis, personally I felt the suicide thing was out of line considering how general and barbed it was, I feel it's generally inappropriate to insinuate suicidal people kill themselves, I won't say it's impossible to tastefully and justifiably joke about such a subject, but I have pretty serious doubts it ever could, but am happy to be proven wrong. Anyways, I didn't see any hint of playfulness or general concern or sympathy when 2 did so, just a blatant, "Yeah, if you're thinking about it, just do it cause you're a dumb cunt."

As for the other point, "a hateful minority of CryBullys" is the part I felt he lost his credibility. He can't come to terms with how he can complain about "bullying" and hatefulness when it can be argued he does the same to other people. Sure he's funny about it, I'm with you there, but he still does the same. He needs to deal with the consequences of what he does, but I don't think he's reacting to it quite the way he should really.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 24, 2017)

Now if he went and said, "Yeah I'm a asshole and I say controversial stuff a few salty easily offended cunts didn't like, hence why I'm no longer a part of Antrhrocon." I would have no issue, because yeah that phrasing is quite cunty, but you know, he's at least owning he's a dick or "shock jock" if you will, instead of victimizing himself with the "Ooh poor me, I'm being bullied!" shtick. When the shock jock starts asking for pity, well, to put it lightly, that's quite the dissonance, hypocritical pity pleas at that. The juxtaposition simply can't be hand waived here.


----------



## webkilla (Mar 26, 2017)

What has been done to 2 - while highly questionable - is still within the rights of the AC board

However, as 2 pointed out: Then the AC staff has NOT been honest about why he was canned. At the very damned least they could be honest, instead of dance around the topic - which, in 2's second video - is shown to be a flat out lie.

Be honest about why you don't want 2 at your con - or be considered a liar


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

People keep bringing up the whole suicide thing, well if you watched his video where he did the buzzfeed privilege test he didnt click "have you never attempted suicide", so i think he has every right to say what he said.
As someone who has tried it myself several times, i completely agree with what 2 said, if you are going to kill yourself over some moron talking shit to you, then well you clearly cant handle what life has in store, there are great times and there are bad times, and if you are willing to throw your life away over such benign matters, well then so be it.

Ive been through some crazy shit, stuff you would think ive made up, ive been bullied (the actual definition, none of this "oh i got made fun of a few times their for i was bullied") for years at school, the only times i tried it involved deaths or being backstabbed and bashed up.

I agree with his whole mentality of the anti-SJW special snowflake rubbish, and that is his message, with life, you toughen up or quit, and i agree, but unfortunately the plague of the SJWs is affecting everything including this fandom, clearly there are some SJWs on the board at AC, which is sad.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> People keep bringing up the whole suicide thing, well if you watched his video where he did the buzzfeed privilege test he didnt click "have you never attempted suicide", so i think he has every right to say what he said.
> As someone who has tried it myself several times, i completely agree with what 2 said, if you are going to kill yourself over some moron talking shit to you, then well you clearly cant handle what life has in store, there are great times and there are bad times, and if you are willing to throw your life away over such benign matters, well then so be it.
> 
> Ive been through some crazy shit, stuff you would think ive made up, ive been bullied (the actual definition, none of this "oh i got made fun of a few times their for i was bullied") for years at school, the only times i tried it involved deaths or being backstabbed and bashed up.
> ...



It's the, I can do it, you can do it fallacy. We're talking about mentally unhealthy people, so no, I don't think it's ok to further bring them down. Any other targets and I would have been just peachy with it. But really, the whole, "Well I didn't go through with it!" Set of logic is stupid, because people react differently to different situations, there's different context surrounding suicidal people, different age and maturity, ect. Painting every single suicidal person with a single stroke and saying, "well this should be your example and this is why it is ok for him to insult suicidal people" inherently lacks any appropriate perspective or consideration for variation. A lot of these cases, we're talking about mentally immature kids, and high schooler, people who are CLEARLY not mature yet, of course they are going to be more prone to doing stupid shit. To utterly dismiss their mental maturity and the conditions of their bullying, ( which could be verbal harassment practically everyday) is pretty thoughtless.


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> It's the, I can do it, you can do it fallacy. We're talking about mentally unhealthy people, so no, I don't think it's ok to further bring them down. Any other targets and I would have been just peachy with it. But really, the whole, "Well I didn't go through with it!" Set of logic is stupid, because people react differently to different situations, there's different context surrounding suicidal people, different age and maturity, ect. Painting every single suicidal person with a single stroke and saying, "well this should be your example and this is why it is ok for him to insult suicidal people" inherently lacks any appropriate perspective or consideration for variation. A lot of these cases, we're talking about mentally immature kids, and high schooler, people who are CLEARLY not mature yet, of course they are going to be more prone to doing stupid shit. To utterly dismiss their mental maturity and the conditions of their bullying, ( which could be verbal harassment practically everyday) is pretty thoughtless.



I guess you are right but ugh like i dont want to go on about some of the horrors ive been through as a kid, but boy did i have every excuse to do it, because of it, i am quite mentally unhealthy, but i just dealt with it, i dunno maybe im just jaded because im so use to it and dont value human life as much as i should depending on various things, also, there are plenty of adults who clearly arent mentally mature, and i know this may sound cruel, but well i am just tired of weak people, ive watched this whole SJW bullshit from the beginning and ive just had enough, i can be quite empathetic, but there is a certain point where you just say "fuck it".
Im not a fan of Darwin, but i do agree with the whole survival of the fittest thing, like just look at say the middle east, after america terrorized the place, what do you see? groups of people like ISIS, now i dont condone them, but i see where they are coming from, they are fighting for what they believe in, they arent being weak, and that is the key, if there is a problem, you build a bridge, reinforce it and walk over it, i sure havent gone over mine yet, but im trying.

As for your comment on bullying, please look up the definition, it has become so overused and used incorrectly, getting made fun of for a few weeks because of something stupid you did is not bullying, bullying is being harassed constantly, going on years, and i have been through that since i was 10 over stuff that is nightmare material.


----------



## Sagt (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> People keep bringing up the whole suicide thing, well if you watched his video where he did the buzzfeed privilege test he didnt click "have you never attempted suicide", so i think he has every right to say what he said.
> As someone who has tried it myself several times, i completely agree with what 2 said, if you are going to kill yourself over some moron talking shit to you, then well you clearly cant handle what life has in store, there are great times and there are bad times, and if you are willing to throw your life away over such benign matters, well then so be it.
> 
> Ive been through some crazy shit, stuff you would think ive made up, ive been bullied (the actual definition, none of this "oh i got made fun of a few times their for i was bullied") for years at school, the only times i tried it involved deaths or being backstabbed and bashed up.
> ...


You know, I feel like a lot of people lack a degree of empathy and it's especially visible on the internet. I guess an explanation would be that it's easy to not care about people if you're behind a keyboard and never see the face of the person that you just insulted. Particularly since the offenders have little accountability as a result of anonymity.

I get that you've been abused/bullied physically, which is probably the more intense and cruel type of bullying, but that doesn't mean that verbal abuse/bullying is non-existent or harmless. Whether the effects be anxiety issues, low self-esteem, anger issues, stress... (etc.), it certainly deals harm. So when someone has such problems, encouraging them to commit suicide is probably unjust. Calling them a special snowflake, as if they're just acting overly entitled, is probably inappropriate as well.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I guess you are right but ugh like i dont want to go on about some of the horrors ive been through as a kid, but boy did i have every excuse to do it, because of it, i am quite mentally unhealthy, but i just dealt with it, i dunno maybe im just jaded because im so use to it and dont value human life as much as i should depending on various things, also, there are plenty of adults who clearly arent mentally mature, and i know this may sound cruel, but well i am just tired of weak people, ive watched this whole SJW bullshit from the beginning and ive just had enough, i can be quite empathetic, but there is a certain point where you just say "fuck it".
> Im not a fan of Darwin, but i do agree with the whole survival of the fittest thing, like just look at say the middle east, after america terrorized the place, what do you see? groups of people like ISIS, now i dont condone them, but i see where they are coming from, they are fighting for what they believe in, they arent being weak, and that is the key, if there is a problem, you build a bridge, reinforce it and walk over it, i sure havent gone over mine yet, but im trying.
> 
> As for your comment on bullying, please look up the definition, it has become so overused and used incorrectly, getting made fun of for a few weeks because of something stupid you did is not bullying, bullying is being harassed constantly, going on years, and i have been through that since i was 10 over stuff that is nightmare material.



To be fair, those people (ISIS) are brainwashed, religion is shoved down their throat as a kid and they are told it is a "pretty dang noble thing" to kill yourself in the name of god. There's a lot of indoctrination going on there.  Logic isn't going to magically show suicidal people the way, when you're dealing with people like that, it makes sense to at least try and emotionally support them. Because Jesus Christ dude, what is logic going to do for somebody who's being called an ugly cunt every day she goes to school and has virtually no friends? You can't logically reason with somebody like that, not very well at least. It's your prerogative if you live by that Social Darwinist crap, but you know let's go by that logic for a minute. Isn't there a strong possibility that if the suicidal person moves past their tendencies that they'll become the jaded, strong willed people you want to see more of? By protecting that person in their ultimate moment of weakness, doesn't that just reinforce the whole, what doesn't kill you makes you strong line of thinking? Sure, you're violating it by some margin by intervening, but by all accounts, they've been on the brink and back haven't they? I don't think it is beneath me to help those I find "weaker" than me, though, my definiton for what makes somebody weak is a fair bit different than yours.

Having empathy for people you consider weaker than yourself, for whatever subjective reason that may be, in your Social Darwinist mindset, could be framed as an investment if you want to think of that way. You're investing in this person and presuming with your time and support, they'll become stronger, in your own subjective definition of strength that is. As for the definition of bullying, it's developed a few different connotations.

According to webster it is "a blustering, browbeating person; _especially_ :  one who is habitually cruel, insulting, or threatening to others who are weaker, smaller, or in some way vulnerable"

Sound pretty similar to how I am presenting it. Though I digress, we can argue the definition all day, but I'm sure we can agree the connotation can vary. Clearly you had a more severe form of bullying, I don't think anybody will deny that, sorry you had to deal with it, but I don't think it gives you the platform to negate the validity of other who are being bullied, whether it is as severe as yours or not, and there are quite a few cases that are as severe as yours going on still. Which is why 2's video about that suicide shit, was, in my eyes sociopathic. I realize what you been through is by all means an extreme form of bullying, I'm not denying that, but that should be your incentive to try and help with the problem, rather than take it upon yourself to drawn lines in the sand and separate the "weak" from the "strong".


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

Lcs said:


> You know, I feel like a lot of people lack a degree of empathy and it's especially visible on the internet. I guess an explanation would be that it's easy to not care about people if you're behind a keyboard and never see the face of the person that you just insulted. Particularly since the offenders have little accountability as a result of anonymity.
> 
> I get that you've been abused/bullied physically, which is probably the more intense and cruel type of bullying, but that doesn't mean that verbal abuse/bullying is non-existent or harmless. Whether it be anxiety issues, low self-esteem, anger issues, stress... (etc.), it certainly deals harm. So when someone has such problems, encouraging them to commit suicide is probably unjust. Calling them a special snowflake, as if they're just acting overly entitled, is probably inappropriate as well.



I am aware of the whole keyboard warrior thing, but like back in my trolling days, i was not only doing it before i even knew about 4chan, but i was doing it in real life, like back in high school i owned a teacher simply because i said "oh im sick of these kids making such a big deal crying about how their parents got divorced" and the teacher told me "well my daughter didn't take my divorce that well, you shouldn't talk like that" and i just responded with "yeah well if you havent seen your own mother on the ground in a pool of blood then you have nothing to complain about" and the room just went quiet and the teacher changed the subject.

What ever happened to the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? i copped a ton of verbal abuse, especially at the time my mother passed, those "ya mum" jokes got popular in australia, i was called a name because at the time i was quite short compared to the other kids, and yeah it messed with my head, one year i didn't have a day where i didn't cry, but that is life, some people get the shitty end of the stick.
I dont condone suicide, i condone getting a backbone and just kicking away all the shit flung your way, i believe if i didn't go through the things i went through, i wouldn't be who i am today, special snowflakes are those people who either make up or self diagnose mental issues, i really recommend you watch andywarski on youtube, his interview with an ex feminist goes on about the whole special snowflake syndrome, and the ex feminist even mentioned a lot tend to be in fandoms funny enough, after seeing the shows 2 did at AC i thought the furry fandom was exempt from this, but recently ive seen it not to be the case.

I guess all i have else to say is wisdom and thick skin is a perk you get from suffering.


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> To be fair, those people (ISIS) are brainwashed, religion is shoved down their throat as a kid and they are told it is a "pretty dang noble thing" to kill yourself in the name of god. There's a lot of indoctrination going on there.  Logic isn't going to magically show suicidal people the way, when you're dealing with people like that, it makes sense to at least try and emotionally support them. Because Jesus Christ dude, what is logic going to do for somebody who's being called an ugly cunt every day she goes to school and has virtually no friends? You can't logically reason with somebody like that, not very well at least. It's your prerogative if you live by that Social Darwinist crap, but you know let's go by that logic for a minute. Isn't there a strong possibility that if the suicidal person moves past their tendencies that they'll become the jaded, strong willed people you want to see more of? By protecting that person in their ultimate moment of weakness, doesn't that just reinforce the whole, what doesn't kill you makes you strong line of thinking? Sure, you're violating it by some margin by intervening, but by all accounts, they've been on the brink and back haven't they? I don't think it is beneath me to help those I find "weaker" than me, though, my definiton for what makes somebody weak is a fair bit different than yours.
> 
> Having empathy for people you consider weaker than yourself, for whatever subjective reason that may be, in your Social Darwinist mindset, could be framed as an investment if you want to think of that way. You're investing in this person and presuming with your time and support, they'll become stronger, in your own subjective definition of strength that is. As for the definition of bullying, it's developed a few different connotations.
> 
> ...



Ok well first the ISIS thing was just an example, what i mean is say your family is killed, what do you do, give up and kill yourself? or go out and seek revenge?
Ok see im just going to give up, i have personality disorders and can flip in an instant from different moods, well when i had friends people would always come to me for advice, because i was just so open, i guess this whole weak vs strong thing is just me basically saying oh ive suffered more then you, so that means im stronger.. i dunno i guess it depends on the severity of whats being done or said, but then there are some people who are just a lost cause, you try and helpthem then they complain of the same shit


----------



## Sagt (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> I am aware of the whole keyboard warrior thing, but like back in my trolling days, i was not only doing it before i even knew about 4chan, but i was doing it in real life, like back in high school i owned a teacher simply because i said "oh im sick of these kids making such a big deal crying about how their parents got divorced" and the teacher told me "well my daughter didn't take my divorce that well, you shouldn't talk like that" and i just responded with "yeah well if you havent seen your own mother on the ground in a pool of blood then you have nothing to complain about" and the room just went quiet and the teacher changed the subject.


That's really not something you should be bragging about - that's just fucked. From what I gather by reading that text, she was probably silent because you said something really insensitive and awkward, not because you "owned" her.



DusterBluepaw said:


> What ever happened to the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? i copped a ton of verbal abuse, especially at the time my mother passed, those "ya mum" jokes got popular in australia, i was called a name because at the time i was quite short compared to the other kids, and yeah it messed with my head, one year i didn't have a day where i didn't cry, but that is life, some people get the shitty end of the stick.


You basically just proved that the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is untrue. Since you know that getting words slung at you hurts badly when you're vulnerable, why would you call people who may be in a similar situation to you a special snowflake and then defend the people who are dishing out insults and who encourage vulnerable people to commit suicide?



DusterBluepaw said:


> I dont condone suicide


You say that you don't condone suicide, yet I can quite clearly see your initial post where you say that you agree with 2Gryphon.



DusterBluepaw said:


> i condone getting a backbone and just kicking away all the shit flung your way, i believe if i didn't go through the things i went through, i wouldn't be who i am today, special snowflakes are those people who either make up or self diagnose mental issues, i really recommend you watch andywarski on youtube, his interview with an ex feminist goes on about the whole special snowflake syndrome, and the ex feminist even mentioned a lot tend to be in fandoms funny enough, after seeing the shows 2 did at AC i thought the furry fandom was exempt from this, but recently ive seen it not to be the case.
> 
> I guess all i have else to say is wisdom and thick skin is a perk you get from suffering.


Someone in this thread already mentioned in this thread why such thinking is unfair and flawed.

I have sympathy for people who self-diagnose themselves with mental issues. If they are self-diagnosing themself with depression or something similar, then chances are that they either do suffer from abuse in some way or they do have some sort of problem. As for your comment on those who fake having mental issues, I must say that I have serious doubts that there are many people who do this.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 27, 2017)

DusterBluepaw said:


> Ok well first the ISIS thing was just an example, what i mean is say your family is killed, what do you do, give up and kill yourself? or go out and seek revenge?
> Ok see im just going to give up, i have personality disorders and can flip in an instant from different moods, well when i had friends people would always come to me for advice, because i was just so open, i guess this whole weak vs strong thing is just me basically saying oh ive suffered more then you, so that means im stronger.. i dunno i guess it depends on the severity of whats being done or said, but then there are some people who are just a lost cause, you try and helpthem then they complain of the same shit



Right, my point about ISIS is that they encourage the "noble Sacrifice" ideal it's ingrained in the culture they were brought up in , so of course the more bloodshed option seems appealing to them. Really the more bloodshed argument seem like as much as a poor choice as offing yourself. Ideally, you'd want to be proactive and spread a message about what's actually going on in your country and why this bloodshed is happening. I personalty feel information is more powerful than primal, animalistic violence.

Sure, some people never change, some people are more inclined towards depression, anxiety and self loathing, people just tend to vary that way. If you don't want to invest the time trying to help them, don't do it, that's your choice to make, not mine. Is a little tough love necessary sometimes? Of course. Just as empathy is a requirement to healing in these cases. Extremes of anything will never help anybody. Saying suicidal people should kill themselves is extreme and sociopathic. Saying that that everything is gonna be ok and mommma will kiss all your boo boos and you don't have to go to school anymore is also extreme. Extreme coddling is bound to breed bad habits. So let us just avoid these extremes here. Let's stray away from the whole edgelord, only the strongest will survive mindset. Similarly, let's avoid the no mean words or criticism past this mark, extreme coddling. At the very least, we can all benefit from thoughtful criticism.


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

Lcs said:


> That's really not something you should be bragging about, that's just fucked.
> 
> 
> You basically just proved that the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is untrue. Since you know that getting words slung at you hurts badly when you're vulnerable, why would you call people who may be in a similar situation to you a special snowflake and then defend the people who are dishing out insults and who encouraging vulnerable people to commit suicide?
> ...



I dont know i guess my personalities just make me a hypocrite, i will think one thing then change my mind later.. i know i shouldn't really like mention what i said first but it comes back to the whole thing i have where i feel like because ive been and still am going through hard times that im better then others who crumble under minor things..

self-diagnoses has so many problems, there is feeling depressed, then there is actually clinical depression, yes some may have problems, but then there are others who just do it for attention.

ugh, i cant help the way i am, people say oh just be yourself and you will make friends, well i guess this is why i have one, coz im a fucking idiot lunatic.


----------



## DusterBluepaw (Mar 27, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> Right, my point about ISIS is that they encourage the "noble Sacrifice" ideal it's ingrained in the culture they were brought up in ,so of course, the more bloodshed option seems appealing to them. Really the, more bloodshed argument seem like as much as a poor choice as offing yourself. Ideally, you'd want to be proactive and spread a message about what's actually going on in your country and why this bloodshed is happening. I personalty feel information is more powerful than primal, animalistic violence.
> 
> Sure, some people never change, some people are more inclined towards depression, anxiety and self loathing, people just tend to vary that way. If you don't want to invest the time trying to help them, don't do it, that's your choice to make, not mine. Is a little tough love necessary sometimes? Of course. Just as empathy is a requirement to healing in these cases. Extremes of anything will never help anybody. Saying suicidal people should kill themselves is extreme and sociopathic. Saying that that everything is gonna be ok and mommma will kiss all your boo boos and you don't have to go to school anymore is also extreme. Extreme coddling is bound to breed bad habits. So let us just avoid these extremes here. Let's stray away from the whole edgelord, only the strongest will survive Mindset. Similarly, let's avoid the no mean words or criticism past this mark, extreme coddling. At the very least, we can all benefit from thoughtful criticism.



I guess you are right, both extremes are bad and you just have to find a middle ground


----------



## Jack Belinski (Mar 27, 2017)

Tha


DusterBluepaw said:


> I guess you are right, both extremes are bad and you just have to find a middle ground


Thats the problem inherent with the internet, there is very little middle ground. Because the internet is a place of few consequences, people are encouraged to share their opinion as it is, without compromise. Therefor, you end up with opinions ranging from the extreme left to the extreme right, and very little middle ground.


----------



## Troj (Mar 27, 2017)

Summary of my thoughts on the topic:

1) By unceremoniously yanking the rug out from beneath 2 and his fans with no explanation, AC has basically created the perfect conditions for a multi-month dramastorm. Whatever their intentions might've been here--good, bad, smart, dumb, or indifferent--this was _not_ the right, constructive, or smart way to approach this. There are other, better ways they could've tackled this sticky wicket.

2) Yes, there are SJWs who don't understand things like subtext, context, irony, satire, or basic human interaction. The people accusing 2 of being a _literal_ Nazi strike me was generally young, naive SJW-types who want to look and feel virtuous and who've never encountered true evil (and that includes actual Neo-Nazis). You can criticize someone without calling them a Nazi, and someone can be entirely worthy of criticism without being a literal Nazi. _To  a certain extent,_ people should also realize that ducks will squack, birds will tweet, and comedians who are known for being edgy or shocking will continue to work that angle.

3) That said, 2 _has_ said some things in the past which absolutely warrant some kind of critique or criticism, and it's disingenuous to say anyone who takes issue with something he's said must be a dumb SJW who either doesn't appreciate or isn't familiar with his material.

The main issue I see is that sometimes, it's not clear where his jokes end and his real opinions begin, because the difference between his persona and his real self is likewise a bit ambiguous.  If people are unclear on whether 2 is meant to be a social commentator like Lewis Black, Lenny Bruce, Jon Stewart, or a George Carlin, or more of a shock comic like Lisa Lampanelli or Andrew Dice Clay, or more of a character actor like Andy Kaufman or Larry the Cable Guy, they may get understandably upset when he appears to give his audience bad advice or makes ignorant statements that appear to come "from the heart."

Especially in this current political climate, people are _extremely _sensitive to others using "just joking" as a kind of get-out-of-jail-free-card for saying genuinely mean-spirited and shitty stuff.

In my view, 2's aforementioned quips and rants about suicide and trans people ultimately bombed not because they related to edgy or controversial topics, but because they were rooted in some pretty glaring and stupid misconceptions about the topics at hand, and because their ultimate purpose or intention was unclear.

4) If you're not a mental health professional or someone who has in-depth personal experience with mental illness and/or various forms of human suffering, you should think twice before just spouting off about what mentally-ill or emotionally-distraught people "should" do. You should also remind yourself that you are not everyone, and that everyone isn't you.

5) Similarly, everybody who hasn't earnestly researched gender and sexuality--and that includes the biology, the anthropology, the sociology, the psychology, the relevant legal issues, and other facets of the subject--and/or who has never had meaningful contact with a trans, gender dysphoric, or gender variant person needs to shut the hell up about what trans people are supposedly like, what their major malfunction is, or what they ought to think, feel, or do.

6) I'm inclined to agree with others here that if he cares about this fandom--which I believe he genuinely does--2 should ideally keep his audience in mind when he tells his jokes. The majority of 2's fans are young whippersnappers, and we know that furries as a class often struggle with bullying and ostracism, social adjustment, depression and anxiety, and social skills and awareness, so it makes sense to _not_ throw gas on preexisting fires if you can help it.

This _does not_ mean that 2 should neuter his act and make it the Family Circus Snuggle-Fun Safe Space Hour. But, there's a big difference between saying "fuck" or just being generally edgy or controversial, and sending your audience away with stupid, inaccurate, or potentially-harmful beliefs and attitudes, like "If online bullying upsets a person, they're a beta cuck who just needs to commit suicide," or "Trans people have a habit of just picking whatever bathroom they're in the mood to use today."


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> if I recall correctly, a large part of his shows consisted of finding news stories where somebody died from their own stupidity and relentlessly mocking him..



That was not the nature of 2's "Gore News" segments.  Their purpose was to illustrate, in a humorous fashion, that there was a rising serious problem of rampant stupidity that was getting people killed so frequently that there wasn't enough time to cover them all in the weekly segment.  This is what people who are only interested in targeting 2 never look close enough to understand.  He actually cares about people and wants to improve these situations by exposing them.  He accomplishes this by not taking stupid behavior seriously, or giving undue weight to it, as he sees giving serious attention to people who do die in stupid ways only encourages others to think they'll get desirable attention by needlessly killing themselves.

2's message about suicide was that people should have more respect for themselves than to kill themselves for attention, and that people who give such attention will only encourage more to do it.  Thus he laughs at them to discourage copycat suicides.  But a small hate group setting itself up in the fandom took this out of context and began trolling him over it.  In the heat of the trolling he suggested that, if one had so little respect for themselves and so little capacity for dealing with life, they probably weren't going to have anything but pain in life.  Therefore they had a choice.  They could steel themselves to accept that trolls are meaningless so they could survive, or they could kill themselves to avoid life.  But if they went the latter route, choosing to ruin their own quality of life by insisting on being perpetual cry-babies, he wasn't going to pretend like he had any quality of life to offer them.  Their problems were of their own making, and if that's what they wanted to do, he wasn't in a position to care.  So they could go ahead and kill themselves if they wanted to, but he wouldn't be found shedding a tear or in any way honoring their stupidity by giving a flip.

I actually find this message inspiring and refer back to it any time I find myself indulging in self-destructive behavior.  Because he's right.  I only do harmful things to myself when I'm suffering from a lack of self respect.  That message might actually end up extending my life.  So, while it's easy to jump on a high horse and start passing snap judgments on 2, those who regularly follow him know what he's getting at.  And none of us would accuse him of being callous or not caring if people live or die.  He's not telling people to commit suicide.  He's trying to motivate them to live.


----------



## KimberVaile (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> That was not the nature of 2's "Gore News" segments.  Their purpose was to illustrate, in a humorous fashion, that there was a rising serious problem of rampant stupidity that was getting people killed so frequently that there wasn't enough time to cover them all in the weekly segment.  This is what people who are only interested in targeting 2 never look close enough to understand.  He actually cares about people and wants to improve these situations by exposing them.  He accomplishes this by not taking stupid behavior seriously, or giving undue weight to it, as he sees giving serious attention to people who do die in stupid ways only encourages others to think they'll get desirable attention by needlessly killing themselves.
> 
> 2's message about suicide was that people should have more respect for themselves than to kill themselves for attention, and that people who give such attention will only encourage more to do it.  Thus he laughs at them to discourage copycat suicides.  But a small hate group setting itself up in the fandom took this out of context and began trolling him over it.  In the heat of the trolling he suggested that, if one had so little respect for themselves and so little capacity for dealing with life, they probably weren't going to have anything but pain in life.  Therefore they had a choice.  They could steel themselves to accept that trolls are meaningless so they could survive, or they could kill themselves to avoid life.  But if they went the latter route, choosing to ruin their own quality of life by insisting on being perpetual cry-babies, he wasn't going to pretend like he had any quality of life to offer them.  Their problems were of their own making, and if that's what they wanted to do, he wasn't in a position to care.  So they could go ahead and kill themselves if they wanted to, but he wouldn't be found shedding a tear or in any way honoring their stupidity by giving a flip.
> 
> I actually find this message inspiring and refer back to it any time I find myself indulging in self-destructive behavior.  Because he's right.  I only do harmful things to myself when I'm suffering from a lack of self respect.  That message might actually end up extending my life.  So, while it's easy to jump on a high horse and start passing snap judgments on 2, those who regularly follow him know what he's getting at.  And none of us would accuse him of being callous or not caring if people live or die.  He's not telling people to commit suicide.  He's trying to motivate them to live.



The "intent" of the message does not matter. What matters is the execution, presentation and the audience. All I saw was relentless mocking of people who died via 'stupidity'. It doesn't matter what you argue, or what intent you read into it. The actions and words spoken are heinous irregardless. This is because the people spoken about through these words and actions are 1. the families of the supposedly stupid people with the intent to cater to the edgelords. 2. Suicidal people with the intent to cater to the edglords (his fanbase). And as I have already stated, having a rational conversation with a suicidal person is an unrealistic expectation. Expecting a suicidal person to NOT be discouraged or hurt by his words towards them is naive at best, and idiotic at worst. Additionally everybody's perception is variable, it is up to the comedian to tailor their message to have it's meaning easily interpretable, and 2 does not give much context behind the message other than social Darwinism is the shit and is important to today's society, suicidal people are dumb and probably deserve to die. A pretty shitty message if you ask me, but you are free to disagree with it as much as you want.

It's a bit presumptuous to try and infer how 2 truly feels through his jokes, that's not a verifiable fact unless you talked to him personally. His purported view of suicidal people and their choice to kill themselves is ignorant and yet remarkably sanctimonious all at once. Claiming all suicidal people are better off dead irregardless of circumstance. It's not stupidity to feel suicidal, it's targeted, malicious hate that triggers these feelings and most people put under that sort of targeted hate at a young age would probably feel the same.

It's funny cause I actually had a mirror image argument with somebody here already. So I'll say the same thing. You are not all suicidal people or people with suicidal thoughts, and it is an inherently weak argument to use yourself as a measuring stick. Human beings are varied and come with a myriad of different personality traits, not everybody will be the outlier and take inspiration from what I'm sure people might call "tough love". Most suicidal people would like some kind of emotional support, but that, that just crosses the line, and very few people would catch themselves dead giving empathy. I mean, that's just an emasculating thing do, and I mean, it's such bad social etiquette to ever admit your depressesed or to talk about gushy weak feelings so why would you? Am I right? Funny how our social culture discourages the right thing to do, to the extent that people find some warped sense of support in borderline socipathic shit said by comedians.


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

Lcs said:


> That's really not something you should be bragging about - that's just fucked. From what I gather by reading that text, she was probably silent because you said something really insensitive and awkward, not because you "owned" her.
> 
> 
> You say that you don't condone suicide, yet I can quite clearly see your initial post where you say that you agree with 2Gryphon.



This kind of comment has been bugging me lately.  You defend The Furry Raiders, that makes you a Nazi.  You agree with 2 Gryphon, that means you condone suicide.  These are not legitimate arguments.  This is pretty much guilt by association with no logical thought behind it at all.

Both assume that the accusing conclusion has been verified, when actually, both are a matter of unproven assumption.  People in Furry Fandom are developing a horrendous tendency to believe the worst is true about somebody because of something they saw jammed into a tweet with its context deleted, or forcing their personal interpretations and opinions out into peoples' faces as fact, causing others to instantly take these things as fact as well.

If a  man says "I don't condone suicide, but I agree with 2 Gryphon," that means he does not interpret 2 Gryphon the way you do.  He believes he heard something in what 2 said that you didn't get for some reason.  And your interpretation is no more factual than his.  Thus, agreeing or disagreeing with 2 Gryphon doesn't prove anything about anybody.  It merely suggests that one should consider they might have misinterpreted something, listen to others say what they heard in it, and then go back and see if they begin to hear what they hear on another listen.

It's called being open minded.  And it's a generally good way to be.


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> This kind of comment has been bugging me lately.  You defend The Furry Raiders, that makes you a Nazi.  You agree with 2 Gryphon, that means you condone suicide.  These are not legitimate arguments.  This is pretty much guilt by association with no logical thought behind it at all.
> 
> Both assume that the accusing conclusion has been verified, when actually, both are a matter of unproven assumption.  People in Furry Fandom are developing a horrendous tendency to believe the worst is true about somebody because of something they saw jammed into a tweet with its context deleted, or forcing their personal interpretations and opinions out into peoples' faces as fact, causing others to instantly take these things as fact as well.
> 
> ...


First off, I didn't say he did condone suicide, but rather I was just bringing up that he had agreed with 2Gryphon. Since 2Gryphon did encourage suicide - and yeah, I'm not buying your BS that he didn't - I saw it as at least a bit contradictory.

Second off, what I find interesting is when people defend others for wrongdoings just because they can be interpreted to fit in with their beliefs elsewhere. In the case of the Raiders (since you brought it up), Foxler should have clarified what association he had to being a nazifur - whether he was just a hobbyist or an actual white supremacist. Instead, he lied about not knowing that his logo was similar to the nazi flag, he lied about not being a nazifur and he was manipulative in how he played innocent/ignorant. He could have just said he was hobbyist, but instead he provoked drama and used it to push his 'alt-furry' agenda by suggesting that anyone not on Raiders side was an SJW. Similarly, 2Gryphon was a bit deceitful and so were you in your initial post on this thread. Both you and him defended something wrong instead of being apologetic or accepting fault.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> This kind of comment has been bugging me lately.  You defend The Furry Raiders, that makes you a Nazi.  You agree with 2 Gryphon, that means you condone suicide.  These are not legitimate arguments.  This is pretty much guilt by association with no logical thought behind it at all.
> 
> Both assume that the accusing conclusion has been verified, when actually, both are a matter of unproven assumption.  People in Furry Fandom are developing a horrendous tendency to believe the worst is true about somebody because of something they saw jammed into a tweet with its context deleted, or forcing their personal interpretations and opinions out into peoples' faces as fact, causing others to instantly take these things as fact as well.
> 
> ...


People like jumping to conclusions, not do some actual research into what has actually been said, and the context of the matter. Intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance is running rampant, especially now that identity politics, although the cancer that it is, is fucking everywhere. The Furry fandom is getting hit hard by this garbage, too, and quite frankly, more and more people are starting to consider leaving the fandom due to snowflakes and this easily-triggered SJW mentality that is spreading like a wildfire.

It's the same with Sargon of Akkad, Paul Joseph Watson, Stefan Molyneux, Tommy Robinson, etc. They are called everything from racists to fascists to Nazis and Holocaust-deniers. And yet, if you go and actually listen to what they are saying, not to mention UNDERSTAND what they are saying and where they are coming from, you know that the ones calling them fascists, Nazis, etc, are uttering pure bullshit.

These people are ideologues. They are not open-minded even though they claim to be. These people do not care about who they hurt/ruin and what damage they cause in the process. THEY are in the right, everyone else is wrong and a X(Insert buzzword here). For well over a hundred years we've had to have compromises with the Left. And the Right is fucking sick of it. Sick of ideology coming before facts. Sick of ideology coming before the merits of the individual.

For the past decade I've been leaning more and more towards the Right due to everything from the trash that is BLM to ANTIFA and SJW's, not to mention feminists(I'm a Centrist, but a decade ago I were a lot more Left-leaning). ALL ruining the west and what we've built and achieved up over the millennia.

It's infuriating to see triggered-happy morons going out of their way to be offended on someone elses behalf, not to mention over completely trivial shit, like someone's OPINION on suicide, or someone's OPINION on assisted suicide.


----------



## KimberVaile (Apr 15, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> It's infuriating to see triggered-happy morons going out of their way to be offended on someone elses behalf, not to mention over completely trivial shit, like someone's OPINION on suicide, or someone's OPINION on assisted suicide.



So somebody proclaiming that suicidal people deserve to die should be met with primal declarations of jubilation instead of any sort of disgust at what is being said? Is that what I am reading from this, or am I mistaken?


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> The "intent" of the message does not matter.
> 
> It's a bit presumptuous to try and infer how 2 truly feels through his jokes, that's not a verifiable fact unless you talked to him personally. His purported view of suicidal people and their choice to kill themselves is ignorant and yet remarkably sanctimonious all at once. Claiming all suicidal people are better off dead irregardless of circumstance. It's not stupidity to feel suicidal, it's targeted, malicious hate that triggers these feelings and most people put under that sort of targeted hate at a young age would probably feel the same.



First of all, 2's comments were not directed at all suicidal people.  That is not a matter of interpretation.  His comments were specifically aimed at one single person who killed herself in order to make the trolls who bullied her sorry.  Everything he said on the subject was relevant only to people being trolled on the internet.  His message was that killing yourself to make a troll sorry is idiotic, and that is not a matter of opinion.  Expecting anything to make a troll feel remorse is utterly futile and idiotic to go through with.

Thus, since you are working on the misinterpretation that he was speaking to all suicidal people, you're not really in a good position to be telling other people their interpretations and reactions to the content are less valid than yours.

To say the intent of the content does not count in judging whether a person should be punished for the content, if pursued to its ultimate end, will render the English language useless, as no man would dare say "Good Morning" for fear that someone might interpret it as a personal attack that justifies ruining their life.

It is not possible, and certainly not reasonable to demand that 2 try to anticipate how every person in the world might misinterpret his words, so that he might perform the impossible task of guaranteeing no one will be offended or otherwise take his words the wrong way

Because I've followed 2 for 10 years, I feel confident in my assessment that 2 is the kind of conscientious person who probably edits anything he anticipates would be potentially harmful to people.  So it shouldn't be a forgone conclusion that he just runs off at the face without considering the effect of his words.  But it can not be required of him that he be perfect at it.

As for how to deal with suicidal people, there are different schools of thought on the matter.  Some people might benefit from being coddled, others might need tough love.  2 obviously thinks young people need to be hardened against trolls, because trolls are a fact of life that nothing is going to make go away, and there's not going to always be somebody around to coddle them when trolls strike.  Thus, 2's strategy makes sense.

But then again, 2 is not a licensed psychiatrist, nor are any of us who are likely to find ourselves suddenly in the position of being the one a suicidal person is looking to for a way to keep going.  So we are all required to do the best thing we can think of to help the situation.  Personally, I don't know any better way to help a person dying of the futility of dealing with trolls other than to strengthen them by helping them see trolls as irrelevant.  I encourage them to see what the trolls say as unimportant, because nobody loves or values a troll, but people do love and value the person being bullied.  Thus, when they begin to see how only the people who love them will be hurt by their suicide, and that the trolls will feel no remorse, hopefully this will get them through.

Now, I suppose you are in the camp that thinks coddling is best for a person in that situation.  That's your opinion, and I'm not qualified to say whether it's a good opinion or not.  But neither are you qualified to evaluate my strategy.  None of us can ever know if we're doing the right thing, but we still have to do something, and we have to go with whatever we can think of.

Now, 2 knows he's making a video that's going to be seen by a lot of people.  So he's going to offer the best advice he can think to give.  It might not be exactly the same advice you or I would give, but it's the best he can come up with.  So, we might say, "I wouldn't have said that," or "I would have said that differently," but that doesn't put us in a position to know what we would have said would have been more effective.  The only way to gage the effectiveness of 2's advice is to look at the results.  Do you see a lot of people committing suicide after watching it?  Or do you get testimony that his advice was helpful?

But you don't want to hear testimony to the effectiveness of the content.  You've had two people who benefitted from the content come in here and told them nothing they have to say matters.  You want to judge the content strictly on your opinion, when we have already established that your opinion is flawed.  And telling people what they have to say is of no consequence is a good way of damaging their sense of self-worth and pushing them back towards suicide.  It is actually a subtle form of cyberbullying I'm particularly vulnerable to.  And the only reason I'm not now spiraling down into depression is because I'm thinking of 2, who is strong against such things, and I take strength from him.

So, you see, though you are entitled to hold an opinion 2's strategies, if you are offered evidence that they work, you have business to give it consideration before you dedicate yourself to 2's condemnation.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 15, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> So somebody proclaiming that suicidal people deserve to die should be met with primal declarations of jubilation instead of any sort of disgust at what is being said? Is that what I am reading from this, or am I mistaken?


One word: Context.

Take out the context and you can quite easily apply almost anything to what has been said/stated.


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

Lcs said:


> First off, I didn't say he did condone suicide, but rather I was just bringing up that he had agreed with 2Gryphon. Since 2Gryphon did encourage suicide - and yeah, I'm not buying your BS that he didn't - I saw it as at least a bit contradictory.
> 
> Second off, what I find interesting is when people defend others for wrongdoings just because they can be interpreted to fit in with their beliefs elsewhere. In the case of the Raiders (since you brought it up), Foxler should have clarified what association he had to being a nazifur - whether he was just a hobbyist or an actual white supremacist. Instead, he lied about not knowing that his logo was similar to the nazi flag, he lied about not being a nazifur and he was manipulative in how he played innocent/ignorant. He could have just said he was hobbyist, but instead he provoked drama and used it to push his 'alt-furry' agenda by suggesting that anyone not on Raiders side was an SJW. Similarly, 2Gryphon was a bit deceitful and so were you in your initial post on this thread. Both you and him defended something wrong instead of being apologetic or accepting fault.



2 did not encourage suicide.  That's just your misinterpretation. 

There is no such thing as a Nazifur, as we now have the input of actual Neo-Nazis that the concept is laughable.  (See link below)  That anyone would ask the question shows the most incredible stupidity, as it is required to be white and straight to be a white supremacist.    Foxler Miller is a gay half-breed in a relationship with a black man, not to mention being a Furry, which Nazis see as something needing extermination.  And if Furries can be so ignorant of what Nazis are that they would ever think to ask such a man if he's a white supremacist, why should it be assumed Foxler was lying about his own ignorance of the subject?

I see no evidence that anything Foxler would have said would have made any difference.  The truth is he's had videos on YouTube explaining every aspect of the situation for quite a while, but none of the haters want to look at those.  Tweets are most effective for keeping a hate movement going.

No one was deceitful.  The worst that can be said of Foxler is that he's inarticulate and often downright terrible at explaining himself, and 2 Gryphon has no need to be dishonest.  If he wanted to be dishonest he could have back peddled on his content.  Standing behind what one believes is not deception.  As for myself, all I'll say is this, if everyone who disagrees with you is deceptive, or a Nazi, or any other label you choose to stick on them to avoid reevaluating your opinions . . . I don't even think it's worth bothering trying to explain what that indicates.  

Rocky Mountain Fur Con canceled following neo-Nazi associations, tax irregularities | flayrah


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> So somebody proclaiming that suicidal people deserve to die should be met with primal declarations of jubilation instead of any sort of disgust at what is being said? Is that what I am reading from this, or am I mistaken?



It's a sad thing about America.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions.  But don't worry.  I'm sure that will be done away with soon.

You know, I have not agreed with everything 2 Gryphon has ever said.  But I would still defend to the death his right to say it.


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> 2 did not encourage suicide.  That's just your misinterpretation.
> 
> There is no such thing as a Nazifur, as we now have the input of actual Neo-Nazis that the concept is laughable.  That anyone would ask the question shows the most incredible stupidity, as it is required to be white and straight to be a white supremacist.    Foxler Miller is a gay half-breed in a relationship with a black man, not to mention being a Furry, which Nazis see as something needing extermination.  And if Furries can be so ignorant of what Nazis are that they would ever think to ask such a man if he's a white supremacist, why should it be assumed Foxler was lying about his own ignorance of the subject?
> 
> ...


Yes he did encourage suicide - by saying that vulnerable people should commit suicide, he was encouraging. By the way, I've already seen his Youtube video on the subject a while ago and I got the impression that he lacks empathy and an understanding of suicidal people.

This is a nazifur:
Nazi Furs - WikiFur, the furry encyclopedia

They are furries that are interested in the WW2 era stuff, hence why I said Foxler may be a hobbyist. That in mind, I think you totally misunderstood what I wrote.

Anyways, yes, Foxler is deceitful as can be seen by the many times that he has lied and pretended that he has no association to nazifurs. I mean, he made an enormously big deal out of something when he could have just explained fully that all the links between him and other nazifurs were harmless. Instead he chose to play ignorant and provoke drama.


----------



## KimberVaile (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> I can't put your full quote here because of the 10,000 character limit, I apologize



Yet, I am not talking about just the video, I apologize for not making that clear, but these instances also includes tweets and youtube comments.


https://imgur.com/SrWD69E

From what he had to say about the video, it seems he made it very clear on were he stands. As for his actual video content. I had originally thought he had made a tweet in which he expanded this statement to all suicide victims, but since I can't find it I'll defer to you on that. I could be misremembering things, I freely admit I can be misinformed in that particular area, so I'll trust your judgment on whether he has or has not made a tweet along those lines, as you have more exposure to him than I do.

Yes the video in particular was geared towards people being insulted via the internet, and my stance still stands, if your actively going encourage people who take their life through cyberbullying it's still deplorable. We're still talking about mentally immature kids, targeted harassment and subsequent suicides still happen via cyberbullying, the fact that its' the internet is often used to dismiss the argument entirely, which is rather disingenuous. Are we really expecting kids to be rational?

I didn't say yours was less valid, only that there really is no definitive proof of intent, though I did imply that, so I apologize for that.

In tandem with the context of the video specifically, a comedy video, everything hinges on presentation and execution, his field carries a unique weight, his comedy, being predicated on shock and social commentary demands careful consideration for his work, and if his execution and presentation is not up to par, people can misinterpret it. For something as serious as cyberbullying and suicides from that, it's a pretty important thing to be methodical about. Normally, I'd not be such a stickler for that, but these conditions, in my eyes, demands a level of accountability and consideration. So no, I don't expect 2 to try and forge his words with the consideration with everybody in the world, I never said that, and I agree it's unrealistic. Let me put it out there, I don't mind people finding offense in non pc humor, that doesn't bother me. Suicide video? Yeah that shit bothers me, he shouldn't have made the video to be honest.

Were the roles reversed I wouldn't have been able to live with myself knowing I could have pushed somebody close to suicide.  Though, I'm aware 2 isn't a bleeding heart, he's the prototypical Stern-eque shock Jock, maybe he just wouldn't have cared if somebody drew closer to suicide through or even if somebody ended up killing themselves. I don't know, and I will never claim to know, I don't know him personally. It's this whole concept of focusing on subjects that are not mentally healthy enough to take that stuff in stride. Were the subjects mentally healthy individuals, it'd be a different story.

Yes you are right, I strongly believe in a case by case basis, which is why I object so strongly to 2's thinking. You really shouldn't lump people like that with such a critically sensitive issue. At the base of the issue I do believe people in that situation need some base amount of emotional support, sometimes somebody is geared more towards tough love, sometimes somebody is geared more towards 'coddling'. Those shoes don't all fit the same foot however. Hence my disgust with his video. So as to what camp pertains to my views? Case by case basis, I refuse to adhere to extremes.

Disagree, 2's strategy is pretty awful, because again it lumps people into a hard locked this way is the right way mindset. Call it coddling or whatever you prefer, emotional support is far more helpful than somebody doubling down and offering more hurtful words. I understand good criticism can help, but to somebody below the age of 18, criticism and hurtful words are probably one and the same if you are being relentlessly bullied. So no, it is a destructive and fruitless train of thought to tell a 12 year old with shredded self esteem that, lol if you feel like killing yourself you fucking deserve it. Building empathy and offering emotional support is the first step in healing, it does not preclude other necessary steps for betterment. The base of healing through empathy is solidified by advice, the thing you suggest about ignoring trolls, that stuff needs to come after emotional healing. Both of these methods can coexist and in fact reinforce each other when used in tandem. This isn't a binary one or the other choice and should not be thought of as such.

My big issue here, is the people who saw it and to the contrary, ended up feeling worse, which, let's not beat around the bush, there were more than a couple I am sure. If you enjoyed 2's video, I'm glad for you, but I don't think that makes his, this shoe must fit everybody's foot train of thought at all valid. If you want to argue I lack comprehension of his strategies that's your prerogative. I've never said that his video couldn't be of help to anybody, just that I think that in the grand scheme of things it had a more negative than positive effect. Though, that's admittedly a subjective view.


----------



## KimberVaile (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> It's a sad thing about America.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions.  But don't worry.  I'm sure that will be done away with soon.
> 
> You know, I have not agreed with everything 2 Gryphon has ever said.  But I would still defend to the death his right to say it.



I never implied 2 should ever be censored, and oppose that notion, just because I find disgust in his statements does not mean I want to enforce censorship.


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

Lcs said:


> Yes he did encourage suicide - I would consider that by saying that vulnerable people should commit suicide, he was encouraging. By the way, I've already seen his Youtube video on the subject a while ago and I got the impression that he lacks empathy and an understanding of suicidal people..



Again, your opinion.  Not necessarily taking in the context of what he was saying or your own ability to determine the existance of empathy.  Let's just put it accurately.  He said something you didn't like, and you disapproved of it.  We can go with that.



Lcs said:


> This is a nazifur:
> Nazi Furs - WikiFur, the furry encyclopedia



Oh, I remember them.  Harmless lot.  Not Nazis at all.  And if there's something on the page that says Foxler was a member, I can't find it.  But even if he were into WW2 RP, that wouldn't support accusations of him being a white supremacist.  Nor does it support the existance of white supremacist  Furries.  But I don't see why you would assume someone who knew nothing about WW2 would want to participate in WW2 RP.  Though, at whatever point he was trying to find out what he was accused of being, he might of contacted them, but I have no evidence to that effect.

I can find no evidence that Foxler is a WW2 enthusiast.  His group name is a Fallout reference, and he does not wear a Nazi uniform, just a paw band that happens to be red.  If he was a uniform fetishist there would certainly be more to his outfit than that.



Lcs said:


> They are furries that are interested in the WW2 era stuff, hence why I called Foxler a hobbyist. That in mind, I think you totally misunderstood what I wrote.



Could be.  The general use of the term Nazi in the fandom recently has been exclusively related to accusations of white supremacy.  If one is talking about WW2 Furs, it is best to make the distinction.



Lcs said:


> Anyways, yes, Foxler is deceitful as can be seen by the many times that he has lied and pretended that he has no association to nazifurs..



If you have evidence of this association I would like to see it.  I have been investigating for months and found nothing to support the allegation.



Lcs said:


> I mean, he made an enormously big deal out of something when he could have just explained fully that all the links between him and other nazifurs were harmless. Instead he chose to play ignorant and provoke drama.



What other Nazi Furs is he associated with?  Details please.


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> Again, your opinion.  Not necessarily taking in the context of what he was saying or your own ability to determine the existance of empathy.  Let's just put it accurately.  He said something you didn't like, and you disapproved of it.  We can go with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, it's my opinion that encouraging suicide is bad.

-

For clarities sake, nazifurs aren't exclusively interested in RP. For example, they can also just be people interested in the history of Germany during WW2 or they can even be fetishists. So if he is just a nazifur, which is what I would guess him to be, then his obsession with nazi related things is probably harmless.

Anyways, I find it hard to believe that you have never seen any evidence of associations between him and something more malicious. Though even more unbelievable is that you seem to genuinely think that he has no knowledge of WW2. These are some screenshots that evidence Foxler being something more than just a leader of a furry group with armbands who knows nothing of WW2 (I'll put them in a spoiler to conserve space):



Spoiler






























There are more suspicious images, but that's probably enough.



Other than those, he also wears that armband which is almost identical to the nazi germany flag and armbands except that the swastika is exchanged for a paw, though even the paw keeps the same colour.

Also, I'd argue that the idea of people thinking he's a white supremacist is understandable considering how he seems to be baiting people into believing this. If anything, his posting history and the videos he watches do warrant suspicion and I hope you can at least agree on this.


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> Yet, I am not talking about just the video, I apologize for not making that clear, but these instances also includes tweets and youtube comments.
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/SrWD69E



Yeah, I've seen that before.  Basically what I said.  He's not babying people who talk about killing themselves over the most minor of BS.  And when bugging the gryphon, one should expect his tact to erode with his patience, at which point he's like "Fine, go do it already."  But again, the context is, "Go do it.  I'm still not going to cry over someone that stupid."  But since he knows they're only doing this to get attention, it's an effective strategy not to give it to them.

I do actually cringe some times at his bluntness.  But social media forces that.  And really there are only two choices of what to do.  Either beg the person not to kill themselves, which will encourage them to believe doing it will get the desired attention, or this tactic, which demonstrates no attention will be forthcoming, as well as possibly making them mad enough at him to motivate them to prove he's wrong about being worthless, and to do that they have to live.

Personally, I wouldn't have the nerve to go this route.  But then, people know and respect 2 more than me.  His opinions matter to his fans.  They wouldn't want to be seen worthless in his eyes.  So maybe it will work for him.  So far I haven't heard of any 2 fans committing suicide.



KimberVaile said:


> Yes the video in particular was geared towards people being insulted via the internet, and my stance still stands, if your actively going encourage people who take their life through cyberbullying it's still deplorable. We're still talking about mentally immature kids, targeted harassment and subsequent suicides still happen via cyberbullying, the fact that its' the internet is often used to dismiss the argument entirely, which is rather disingenuous. Are we really expecting kids to be rational?



No, we don't expect kids to be rational.  But again, this is not encouragement.  It's extreme discouragement in a way kids can relate to.  It's the same way a cartoon superhero might come on as say "Drugs are for dopes," this video is "2 Gryphon says killing yourself over trolls is stupid."  You'd be amazed how people look up to 2.  If 2 says suicide is so stupid it makes him want to rant, it's something they don't want to be into.

And what alternatives are available to approach this problem.  Tell kids to buy guns to kill the trolls with?  Make it a pity party for the dead girl that all the other kids would want?  Nah, "You're favorite net hero with think you were a worthless waste of space if you kill yourself" seems the best option for reaching kids. 



KimberVaile said:


> I didn't say yours was less valid, only that there really is no definitive proof of intent, though I did imply that, so I apologize for that.



For the video itself intent is pretty obvious.  "This is dumb.  This accomplishes nothing.  No one will give a hang."  The comments are harder to say, but I expect they continue the motivation of the video, which is to help kids toughen up.



> In tandem with the context of the video specifically, a comedy video, everything hinges on presentation and execution, his field carries a unique weight, his comedy, being predicated on shock and social commentary demands careful consideration for his work, and if his execution and presentation is not up to par, people can misinterpret it.
> 
> Yeah, I've pointed that out him on occasions.
> 
> ...


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

KimberVaile said:


> I never implied 2 should ever be censored, and oppose that notion, just because I find disgust in his statements does not mean I want to enforce censorship.



Ah, my apologies.  I misread you.

Yes, if 2 creates something you have a problem with, you can always leave him a comment and let him know.  But what happened to him over this video was far worse than censorship.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Apr 15, 2017)

Okay, some posts here are starting to stray too far into bashing individuals - while 2 is probably among the closest things furry fandom has to public figures, please try to keep your discussions of his and others' actions respectful. You can disagree with what someone has said or done without attacking them as persons.


----------



## KimberVaile (Apr 15, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> Yeah, I've seen that before.  Basically what I said.  He's not babying people who talk about killing themselves over the most minor of BS.  And when bugging the gryphon, one should expect his tact to erode with his patience, at which point he's like "Fine, go do it already."  But again, the context is, "Go do it.  I'm still not going to cry over someone that stupid."  But since he knows they're only doing this to get attention, it's an effective strategy not to give it to them.
> 
> I do actually cringe some times at his bluntness.  But social media forces that.  And really there are only two choices of what to do.  Either beg the person not to kill themselves, which will encourage them to believe doing it will get the desired attention, or this tactic, which demonstrates no attention will be forthcoming, as well as possibly making them mad enough at him to motivate them to prove he's wrong about being worthless, and to do that they have to live.
> 
> ...



Look, you can paint it anyway you want, it doesn't make his stance on it any less amicable, in my opinion. Considering his audience, and the social presence he has, it behooves him to carefully consider and account for what impact his words will have. It's important that somebody like 2, who has so many people look up to him that give a little more consideration to his word than a normal person. As you say, people look up to him, so it was unreasonably malicious to outright state something like that. The circumstances do not warrant it. Again it's really important with a subject like this, how the audience or viewer perceives it. The context for all intents and purposes can be read in a number of ways given the content. Pro Social darwinism/man the fuck up and shrug it off people!/people are getting dumber by the day. These are all valid inferences of what the context is considering all the content. No one interpretation of the context is valid, just as when you read a piece of literature, there is more than one way to see the theme based on the facts.

Extreme discouragement. And this can't be paired with emotional support because? As I stated, going extreme is never the answer. You know what a kid's going to think? Wow, I guess I really am a waste of life, I fee like shit now. If however, you provide the pretext pf emotional support beforehand, the message is strengthened. Instead of being perceived as hostility, it's perceived as, this guy genuinely wants to help me. That pretext establishes character credibility and genuine concern. That seems like a way better alternative, not terribly hard one to achieve either, much better than, hey this guy you look up to thinks your a dumb twat.

As for fans committing suicide, that's territory that is hard to verify if any impact was made on those who watched the video. Though, I'd imagine those hurt by it where disinclined to say anything. Considering these people were likely suicidal, they likely feared being hurt further by commenting, hence, unsurprisingly, they are presumably silent.

As for the videos intent, I don't agree, it seemed geared more towards Social Darwinism, that seems obvious to me. This is a lot like how people seems to bicker and debate at the obvious themes in John Updike's A&P. Some say it's individualism vs collectivism, others say it's a criticism of capitalism. With that said, I still believe it's intent was geared more towards a advocation of social Darwinism in regards to these types of people he speaks of. His overarching message seemed to be less geared towards advice and more towards social commentary. Though one can argue I am reading far too into it.

Also can you truly, definitively say without 2's words, you would have committed suicide? I would think you'd at least hesitate to give an answer. Please don't read this as me marginalizing the effect he had on you. It is not, I am merely saying, you may be overstating his intervention. I know this reply will probably get me some flack, but I truly believe his intervention may be overstated. I don't doubt it helped, but perhaps saved may be too strong a term, yes? To make another inference here I'd go out on a limb and presume you were at least 16 at the time you watched yes? Mature enough to learn from his criticism?

As for how he is personally, I would not be opposed to speaking to him to learn of his intent, no, however, I also feel such a personal clarification would be a misuse of his time. I tend to try and respect the time of public figures as I am aware they have more hectic schedules, inspite of my intense disagreements with him. If for whatever reason he's lurking these forums and wishes to clarify things, by all means, I will not oppose that whether that be through Skype or PM or forum post, however for the time being I'm going to presume he doesn't want to bother and presumably is unaware of what is going on in the FAF. That's really the thing, if he's not aware of the FAF forums, that seems kind of rude to suddenly demand an explanation from a busy person. I would not feel that'd be appropriate social etiquette personally.
I would like to make it clear that I do not hate him or anything of the like. He's still a human being at the end of the day even if some of the things he said were, in my opinion, incredibly shitty.

Case by Case basis comment. - Just simply disagree, I'd hesitate to say it saved anybody, I won't hesitate to say it hurt people however. If your going to try and make a video with the intent on helping people, the establishment of the intent to help with some sort of emotional support would be important. 2's a creative guy, I'm sure he can work that in without it hurting his video. It'd be a hell of a lot better than this double edged swords that imo, is harming more than helping.

As for the adult artist thing, please let's not go there. Alright? When I was a kid, I didn't give a rat's ass what was mature on YouTube or not, same went for movies and video games. This argument isn't being honest, you know kids do that. I'm not saying everything on YouTube needs to be tailored to include kids, but it's just important to consider for something as grave as suicide. I mean YouTube doesn't really have that many restrictions to begin with.


----------



## Perri_Rhoades (Apr 15, 2017)

Lcs said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've seen all these before, except for the snitch story, which I don't know to trust since I don't know who wrote it or what their motivations were.  I've had my own share of backstabbing former friends lie their tails off about me.  The other stuff I have more detailed context on.  They support his story of a period where he was interested in learning about Nazis after people started calling him one.  Something he's expressed regret for.

The manchild statement I'd agree with from my observations, but the "He's secretly very intelligent" thing I'd find a hard sell.  One statement tends to contradict the other.  That he was into trolling is supported.  "God Complex?" I suppose could mean any number of things, particularly from someone he's had a falling out with.

The screen cap of the fursuit comments is incomplete.  And the pose is not a complete Nazi salute as he's not standing at attention.  If he was trying for a Nazi salute this would indicate he's never even seen a WW2 movie.  On the other had, he could just be striking a waving to somebody pose.

Anyway, as always happens when somebody says they've got some specific dirt on him that I've been looking for confirmation of, I get these same items, and the requested confirmation is not there.  I didn't see any evidence of him associating with other Nazi Furs.


----------



## Sagt (Apr 16, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> I've seen all these before, except for the snitch story, which I don't know to trust since I don't know who wrote it or what their motivations were.  I've had my own share of backstabbing former friends lie their tails off about me.  The other stuff I have more detailed context on.  They support his story of a period where he was interested in learning about Nazis after people started calling him one.  Something he's expressed regret for.
> 
> The manchild statement I'd agree with from my observations, but the "He's secretly very intelligent" thing I'd find a hard sell.  One statement tends to contradict the other.  That he was into trolling is supported.  "God Complex?" I suppose could mean any number of things, particularly from someone he's had a falling out with.
> 
> ...


My words were:

"So if he is just a nazifur, which is what I would guess him to be, then his obsession with nazi related things is probably harmless."

My point by bringing up those images was that there's a lot of malicious stuff out there by him which is left unexplained. Anyways, surely we can at least conclude that his very suspicious content, which seems likely to be just baiting, warrants drama. He should have explained himself, but instead he began doing the exact opposite of what he should have done by playing ignorant (he said he didn't know much about WW2 and that the nazi salute was an accident, which seems far too covenient to be true and seems unlikely given his posting history).

By the way, I was looking back at what I wrote previously and I wanted to clarify that I don't necessarily think he is a nazifur or that he is some sort of white supremacist (in fact, I am almost certain that he is not a white supremacist type). I'm also not of the opinion that we should be labelling others actual nazis for petty things like this since it makes no sense to do so when considering what a nazi actually is - so please don't misinterpret this as what I'm saying.  I'm just saying that being a white supremacist or a hobbyist nazifur are possible explanations for why he acts like he does and that it's understandable that people think this given Foxlers actions. Though anyways, I think being a nazifur is much more nice than what I think the main reason for what I would suspect is the actual reason for this nonsense - him being a manipulative person.

-

If you want to continue talking with me about this, lets go into PMs. I think we've gone horribly off topic by now.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 16, 2017)

Perri_Rhoades said:


> I've seen all these before, except for the snitch story, which I don't know to trust since I don't know who wrote it or what their motivations were.  I've had my own share of backstabbing former friends lie their tails off about me.  The other stuff I have more detailed context on.  They support his story of a period where he was interested in learning about Nazis after people started calling him one.  Something he's expressed regret for.
> 
> The manchild statement I'd agree with from my observations, but the "He's secretly very intelligent" thing I'd find a hard sell.  One statement tends to contradict the other.  That he was into trolling is supported.  "God Complex?" I suppose could mean any number of things, particularly from someone he's had a falling out with.
> 
> ...


People are getting so obsessed with Nazis/fascists they see them everywhere. Be obsessed with the "enemy" and you become the enemy you so loathe. Some people wanna see Nazis/fascists/what have you everywhere, and try and push the narrative that other people are Nazis, fascists, white nationalists, etc, even if it's a load of fucking bullshit. It's quite pathetic. This shit's not limited to the fandom. If they met an actual Nazi and tried agitating them, they wouldn't last 2 fucking minutes in a fight.

New 2 video.


----------



## Simo (Apr 16, 2017)

Given how he is bald and all, he'd look really funny with some of those furry ears, that attach via one of those kinda clamp on bands.

I really think he needs to look into this, his whole act has gotten really stale. He can thank me later.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 16, 2017)

Simo said:


> Given how he is bald and all, he'd look really funny with some of those furry ears, that attach via one of those kinda clamp on bands.
> 
> I really think he needs to look into this, his whole act has gotten really stale. He can thank me later.


I can imagine 2 going about with a nekomimi and a tail, going about, in a grumpy way: "Nyyaaaa".

Have you seen my sides? They just left.


----------



## ChromaticRabbit (Apr 17, 2017)

I believe that now more than ever it is important for fandom conventions, especially furry conventions, to set a tone of inclusiveness in their official programming, in part to offset this brave new climate of national social and political cultural malaise. Whatever word you may want to apply to 2's rant against at-risk individuals presently suffering an emotional crisis, be it hatred or intolerance, tasteless or cruel, or even resonant with what you feel inside, I hope that we can all agree that wishing suicidal individuals to be dead as a class seems to cross over into the deep end and isn't really good _entertainment_.

Generally speaking, weren't shrill angry spittle-spraying rants from skinheads always kind of spiritually low-rent with poor aesthetics? It's much more difficult to build something than to tear it down or subdivide it. I wonder what a furry convention full of people who sympathize with 2's lowest moments would be like. In a superimposed state of self-loathing and denial, I should expect.


----------



## noveltybest (May 15, 2017)

I want 2 gryphon he might've joked about suicide but joke were made to make serious matters into something entertaining it's either everything is bad or nothing is bad so in the words of freedom of speech.





fuck your feelings bro.


----------



## lupi900 (May 16, 2017)

noveltybest said:


> I want 2 gryphon he might've joked about suicide but joke were made to make serious matters into something entertaining it's either everything is bad or nothing is bad so in the words of freedom of speech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That's pretty much what Dark Humor is. The ones crying about 2 are the same ultra touchy furs that go on how evil 4chan, haters are for silly hyperbolic reasons.

I know a streamer who had a clown who would cry anytime he got roasted but was fully okay doing it to others.


----------



## Yakamaru (May 16, 2017)

lupi900 said:


> That's pretty much what Dark Humor is. The ones crying about 2 are the same ultra touchy furs that go on how evil 4chan, haters are for silly hyperbolic reasons.
> 
> I know a streamer who had a clown who would cry anytime he got roasted but was fully okay doing it to others.


They can dish it out, but sure as hell can't take it, when they are treated by the very own standards they treat others with. It's fun to watch.Very fun to watch.


----------



## lupi900 (May 16, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> They can dish it out, but sure as hell can't take it, when they are treated by the very own standards they treat others with. It's fun to watch.Very fun to watch.



What's more annoying that streamer has a hard time getting collab's. Because most of them are too dumb to get that everything is them just joking.


----------

