# Ok Bioshock fans, I have some good news and some bad news.



## ADF (Aug 12, 2007)

A demo for Bioshock as been released today, the bad news is it's 360 only... yeah.

The net is going to turn into a vat of boiling piss over this one, if you are a 360 gamer on the other hand rejoice and go play.


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## ADF (Aug 12, 2007)

Aww how cute, the 360 users didn't waste a moment before they took the time to make fun of PC gamers. How so very sweet of them.

1, 2, 3


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## ceacar99 (Aug 12, 2007)

lol this is reminding me of my old feelings that the true console fans were idiots.... so what if its on the xbox first? they'll never be able to push the game to the limits that a pc can.


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## ADF (Aug 12, 2007)

Tell me, what do you think happens when the world + dog tries to download the Bioshock demo at the same time?

Linky


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## Komamura (Aug 12, 2007)

*sigh* At the speed its downloading i could have program and code the game myself and be done faster


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## Werwulf (Aug 12, 2007)

Bleh, I would go get it for my xbox360, but i modded it and am kinda scared to get banned xD.


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## Seratuhl (Aug 12, 2007)

ADF's right...I'm playing the XBOX 360 demo as I speak. Fun game. Poor PC gamers D:

Now...back to the plasmid tinkering.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 13, 2007)

Speaking of 360 gamers and demos, the stranglehold demo is out as well, and boy, to you action game fans, it's absolutely wonderful! Plus, I'm quite surprised at how much replayability there is in the demo.


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## TundraWolfBlade (Aug 13, 2007)

* Sighes.* Why do we console games not get along with u PC gamers? WHY?! Just beacuse we game differently...it doenst make sense...


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## Seratuhl (Aug 13, 2007)

TundraWolfBlade said:
			
		

> * Sighes.* Why do we console games not get along with u PC gamers? WHY?! Just beacuse we game differently...it doenst make sense...



>_> Yes...come to think of it...PC gamers ( not all of them ) look down upon console gamers...

Why can't we be friends?


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 13, 2007)

*Keeps playing the Bioshock demo*
Huh?
Wha?
I am so glad I pre-ordered this!


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## psion (Aug 13, 2007)

*sighs*  Gate's favoritism for his Xbox children over the people who made him who he is (PC users in general) will eventually come back to haunt him.  Hopefully it will come when the judges believe Microsoft doesn't have a leg to stand on in the Linux case....
But in any case, the PC demo will probably come.  AFTER the game is released that is.  Which bites because I really want to see if my puter is up to snuff.


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## ADF (Aug 13, 2007)

I don't think Microsoft had a role in this one, rumour mill says it is taking longer because the PC version has additional options for customizing game play (e.g. disabling quest compass, usable object shimmer and shiny items).

However, for them to not release a demo this close to release because of this, it is concerning for obvious reasons.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 13, 2007)

Point of the matter being, there's a larger market for consoles, so they have to entice them first before the PC users. Basically, they put it first where they suspect will garner the most copies, and the console version will garner more sales.

Not that I'm complaining though, cause I already gots the demo! :3


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## ADF (Aug 13, 2007)

The problem is a demo on the PC is more practical, PC users need a demo to benchmark their hardware to see if they can run it before buying it. If the demo comes out after the game like they suggest, there will be people who purchased it without knowing they can only manage minimal settings.

[edit]

Ah we have a offical responce.

Link



> After the appearance of the BioShock Demo on Xbox 360â„¢ last night, Iâ€™m sure many of you PC fans wondered, â€œWhat about us?â€
> 
> Hereâ€™s the deal.
> 
> ...


Well lets just hope it is out before release.


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## Werwulf (Aug 13, 2007)

Bleh i'll wait. There are so many other great games I'm worried about too, Stranglehold, Mass Effect, Persona 3!! (drool), MoH Airbourne!! (drools more). Damn this month is going to be busy, accursed college is starting for me too .


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## chronoteeth (Aug 13, 2007)

Pretty much the 360 is gonna be king in terms of great game releases this year. I mean, damn man, there's way too many coming out!


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## ADF (Aug 13, 2007)

There are many games coming out on all systems if you look around; Crysis, Hellgate London, Quake Wars, a few RTS and a couple of other games I cannot remember are due soon.

And of course, Bioshock.



			
				chronoteeth said:
			
		

> I know I know, but I mean in terms of size and amount, the 360 really has alot going for it, and with signs of it not letting down in terms of big awesome releases, it looks like 360 just might pop out on the top this time around.


If you say so; but if you don't look around you won't see it is a big time for everyone, not just the 360.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 13, 2007)

I know I know, but I mean in terms of size and amount, the 360 really has alot going for it, and with signs of it not letting down in terms of big awesome releases, it looks like 360 just might pop out on the top this time around.


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## sgolem (Aug 13, 2007)

Seratuhl said:
			
		

> TundraWolfBlade said:
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I agree fully.  Though I am primarily a console gamer, I play my PC too.  Just depends on the game and HDD space. 

Not to mention they're different enough that they should be able to coexist better than the consoles.


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## ADF (Aug 13, 2007)

No offence but I would rather consoles stayed away from my gaming rig, I didn't leave consoles to become a dedicated computer gamer just for the console game play I tried to escape to follow.

I know I know, Bioshock has its own PC DEV team and cross platform development is the direction the market has taken, doesn't mean I have to like it. If you game on consoles or both PC and console I can see it being hard to understand why people make such a fuss about console orientated games invading computers, lets just say it is a conflict of tastes.


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## Foxstar (Aug 13, 2007)

psion said:
			
		

> *sighs*  Gate's favoritism for his Xbox children over the people who made him who he is (PC users in general) will eventually come back to haunt him.  Hopefully it will come when the judges believe Microsoft doesn't have a leg to stand on in the Linux case....
> But in any case, the PC demo will probably come.  AFTER the game is released that is.  Which bites because I really want to see if my puter is up to snuff.



If you understood what Gates is aiming for, you would understand better why the 360 gets MS's full attention gaming wise first and then the PC gets the ports. Gates delivered the right product at the right time and did everything he had to do get the roadblocks out of the way. That's what made him what he is today, not the users. Don't hold your breath on the Linux case. Linux users for years have and more of them drop dead by the day. Study the legal system some more and see that save for the goverment nationlizing Microsoft, they aren't going away unless the market at LARGE declares they no longer want what they have to offer. That's not happened yet, most people outside of the tech and nerd wars in mags and on fourms don't give a shit that Microsoft is largely the only game in town, it works, somewhat stable and with a little brains, you'll not have to worry.



> * Sighes.* Why do we console games not get along with u PC gamers? WHY?! Just beacuse we game differently...it doenst make sense...



PC gamers are some of the biggest elitest snobs on the planet and if they are a coder, run a Linux box or are a hard core PC gamer, add a 50 to 60% boost to that snob factor. Console gamers tend to just want to play games, PC gamers live and die by their system builds and specs, yet act like because they have the largest marketshare (Somewhat of a joke with how fragmented the PC market is) they have divine right to first pickings on everything.

Console gamers can be bad too, fanboyish and immature but PC still spawns some of the worst fanboys on earth (Fallout fanboys FTL) and given how out of control piracy is on the PC format, I'd only look for a upscaling in the line of thought with devs (Consoles first, PC's second) as the 360 gains more marketshare and thus allows devs to make a tidy profit still on a platform that isn't completely overrun with piracy and compadabily issues, yet still take care of the joker who drops 600+ on his rig every six months to stay in the game and $1500 every four years for a new one.

And this is coming from a PC gamer as RTS's remain only worth playing on PC.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 14, 2007)

Seratuhl said:
			
		

> TundraWolfBlade said:
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in truth i used to look down on console gamers because the average console gamer was so pro console because he couldn't make heads or tails of a pc. i mean he put in the cd and couldn't figure out why the game wouldn't just load and play. hell he even did the sure fire beat the computer with a rock fix and it still didn't work so after that he wouldn't touch the computer because its in his words "stupid".

oh wait i still look down on the average console gamer because of statements like "halo is the best shooter ever made". its sad that they wallow in such gaming ignorance that they think that piece of shit with generic game play and crappy storyline is the best that shooters have to offer....



> Fallout fanboys FTL



whats wrong with fallout fanboys? i consider myself a "fallout fanboy", mainly because the serries as a whole is in my top 3 favorite rpgs of all time. fallout 1 and 2 are some of the few games that i've played through more then twice. hell usually i only play a game through once(i burn through games....), fallout is THAT good in my opinion. lol.


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## ADF (Aug 14, 2007)

Anything console gamers do does not affect me so I have little reason to have anything against the gamers themselves, maybe a little ignorance about PC gaming every now and then but most of the time a corrective post sorts that out.

My main issues are probably well known by now, anything about consoles that influence PC gaming. I game on PC to get away from console style games, but these days they seem to infect computer gaming with a vast amount of ports or games that are supposed to be cross platform but almost always favour the console version. I know why it is all happening, doesn't mean I have to like it.

There are a few exceptions, Prey had nothing in it that suggested console bias and from what we are told neither does Bioshock. But games like Oblivion and the soon to be consolized Fallout 3, long running CRPGs with console orientated development, that sort of stuff makes me want to bust open one of those consoles. Yeah I have heard it all before, it doesn't matter as long as we all get to enjoy the game, I have a cut and paste response for that.



> As I have told other people, each platform has a preference in their games that suits that platforms particular audience. When you design a game for more than one platform, the aspects that appeal to each audience either get mixed or prefer one over the other. However since consoles make up the majority of the mainstream and casual market, games are more likely to bend towards their preferences than find a middle ground.
> 
> PC users dislike console porting and cross platform development because it washes out the parts that appeal to PC gamers, then replaces them with those that are more to the liking of the console audience.



And don't even get me started on Microsoft's abuse of power to turn my gaming rig into a giant Xbox using GFW. It is the infulence of console systems on computers that I hate, not those who game on them.


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## Nollix (Aug 14, 2007)

Trust me, you didn't miss much. I played the 360 demo and while it was fun, it was meant to be a cocktease.
And yes, I'm a PC gamer as well, since I have the best of both worlds (Good comp and 360)


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## ceacar99 (Aug 14, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> Anything console gamers do does not affect me so I have little reason to have anything against the gamers themselves, maybe a little ignorance about PC gaming every now and then but most of the time a corrective post sorts that out.
> 
> My main issues are probably well known by now, anything about consoles that influence PC gaming. I game on PC to get away from console style games, but these days they seem to infect computer gaming with a vast amount of ports or games that are supposed to be cross platform but almost always favour the console version. I know why it is all happening, doesn't mean I have to like it.
> 
> ...



well, first off when i played the bioshock demo i noticed a REALLY dumned down interface compared to the system shocks. instead of a real true inventory the player is given a infinite carry system that basicaly if the player see's something he can carry it. this removes one of the major reasons why system shock 1 and 2 were difficult, trying to figure out what gear you should take with you and what you should leave. in bioshock it doesnt matter because you dont have a limit on what you can carry... in other words they dumned the shit out of a good style of game for a few idiot console gamers.

the reason is simple to understand. while the original system shocks had a fanatic fanbase they were still underdogs. great games that never sold as well as they should have. bioshock catering to the console gamers is basically amounting to them selling the soul of the game to ensure that it will sell well instead of remaining largely unkown.

look, my issue with consoles is that as a general rule the games that are console only(or were orginaly intended to be console only) SUCK. they generally are moronic predictable piles of shit. only a few console title/series are actually worth playing in my opinion. what makes things worse is that when a pc game is ported to console its like they have to dumb the shit down in the name of making it console friendly and in the end RUIN the game. of course the console players like it but to people like me i look at the final product and get utterly disgusted.

also what have you heard in terms of features that will be adjusted in fallout 3 so it can be ported? honestly i cannot see fallout being on a console, the first two absolutely required a mouse....


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## ADF (Aug 14, 2007)

ceacar99 said:
			
		

> [snip]


They have to cater to their majority audience *shrug*, consoles are seen as a casual gamer audience so that is how their games are made. Not too long ago in one of these types of discussions I came to a horrible realisation. In a thread on dumbing down someone said games like Torment, Arcanum and Fallout have never appeared on console systems, but then someone said they don't appear on PC any more so they cannot be used in the argument.

And this is the truth, it has been years since a title with the depth of those games have been made or even considered. As PC gaming moves closer to the mainstream, it is moving closer to the casual market, so like all good companies they need to cater to their majority audience. So the argument that consoles dumb games down isn't really usable any more, the casual market requires games to be dumbed down for their audience and they are now moving to PC gaming.

The thing about Bioshock however is it does not claim to be a sequel to System Shock 2, but rather a spiritual sequel. It doesn't have to be just like the game and as a FPS it doesn't need a detailed inventory either. Granted consoles most likely have been involved in the design of that inventory, but it won't impact the game as much as say a RPG.

Do yourself a big favour, stay away from Fallout 3. Don't read about it, don't look at it, don't even peak into discussions about it. What they have done to that game would make a Fallout fan scream in rage, save yourself the pain.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 14, 2007)

Wow, it really is hard for you to just wait until you play the damn game.

And fallout fans are some of the bitchiest I've ever seen.


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## ADF (Aug 14, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Wow, it really is hard for you to just wait until you play the damn game.
> 
> And fallout fans are some of the bitchiest I've ever seen.


What do you seriously expect? For them to be happy it is being consolized? That Bethesda purchased the series only to change it to look more like a TES game? That they claim to be fans of the series, but have openly refused to hire anyone who worked on the previous games? Despite them offering? Fans of the origional series are supposed to ignore all this and wait till they play it before making judgements? Stack bricks and you get a brick wall, what else are people supposed to call this?

It is a classic computer role playing game being turned into a 1st/3rd person stat driven adventure designed specifically for Xbox 360, plus the people writing the dialogue are the same ones who did Oblivions. If no one sees what is so wrong with that then of course they don't understand why people are so bitchy about all this, if they don't get why the above is bad then there is no point in trying to explain it to them.

It is probably along the lines of how the Shadowrun fans felt when their P&P tabletop RPG was turned into a FPS, this isn't as big of a screw over but it is pretty close.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 14, 2007)

At least we know it'll be a good 1st/3rd person *RPG*, unlike shadowrun. They could of at least made it a good fps, and it sucked plenty of balls.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 15, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Wow, it really is hard for you to just wait until you play the damn game.
> 
> And fallout fans are some of the bitchiest I've ever seen.



imagine you have played 2 of the best damn games you have ever seen. then imagine you petitioned with more signatures then you could count in a year to develop a third fallout. then imagine when that dream finally comes true that the company basically tanks the project and adopts a console game "brotherhood of steel" that isnt fallout in any way save for being post apocalyptic and having one of the factions.

fallout fans have been waiting for a new fallout for a LONG ass time. from what adf said people should go to bethesda and egg their place of work en masse and then maybe give up on companies developing a third fallout and turn to mod teams.

fallout was full of uniqe quirks EVERYWHERE, right down to the lil "pip boy". this was found in events(who can forget blowing up an outhouse covering a entire town in goo?) to funny little jokes in what people tell you. the combat system allowed for incredible tactics and cunning, the turn based tactical system allowed all styles of players to compete. hell i beat both of the games with a martial artist using nothing more then what amounts to super brass knuckles.

listen, fallout earned a fanatic fanbase because its AWESOME. eventually this sort of evolved into a general love of post apocalyptic culture and games as seen at "no mutants allowed" a primarily fallout web page. the best way to explain it is by saying that fallout inspired the imaginations of its fans much like star trek did to others. 

and ya i just read a few articles about the latest fallout and well. its shit, 3rd/1st person and a character development system "similar to oblivion". ya it fuckin sucks. its not too severe a blow to me because after the original fallout 3 project tanked i decided it wasn't gonna happen in the true spirit of fallout at least. i would try to start a mod that creates it but i dont have the experience working with the dialogue system for example and i would have no clue how to even begin to create such a thing nor do i have the experience leading a mod team and getting a serious development going like the creators of red orchestra did....



> The thing about Bioshock however is it does not claim to be a sequel to System Shock 2, but rather a spiritual sequel.



heh i just said that from my eyes at least they started to ruin a "style" of game. note "style" lol. as far as bioshock goes i was impressed that they still managed to keep the system shock atmosphere in tact. if the inventory wasnt unlimited the fear factor would have been much the same. your all alone, yet you see the footsteps of those who came before you, and often you learned generally how they died and where. enemies surround you and every time you move from a room it is another chance that you will be murdered. every time you fight you wince as your stocks of supplies are always thin and you are always on the verge of running out of munitions. often your only respite is sitting in a dark corner as you listen to the last words of the poor souls who did not manage to survive, looking for any clues you can get on how to survive the hell hole. ya its largely the same in ability to get your heart pounding and its for that reason that ill probably still buy the game, the infinite inventory kinda pissed me off though... they did however remove the constantly re spawning enemies and rapidly degrading weapons however so that helps the game a lot. although i have to admit, in ss2 looking at your gun and knowing that while you had enough rounds the weapon probably wouldnt hold up through the next fight always made the fear levels rise more...


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## Tundon (Aug 15, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> It is a classic computer role playing game being turned into a 1st/3rd person stat driven adventure designed specifically for Xbox 360, plus the people writing the dialogue are the same ones who did Oblivions. If no one sees what is so wrong with that then of course they don't understand why people are so bitchy about all this, if they don't get why the above is bad then there is no point in trying to explain it to them.



You're right... it is just a game... so I don't understand why people care so much? I'm a console gamer, have been since I was like 5 or whatever. Gears of War - Released on 360 in November 2006, was supposed to be exclusive to the 360, but now the PC is getting the game, with stuff that was cut out of the 360 version because they had a deadline to reach. I love GoW it's currently one of my favourite games, I bought all the new content and such... but am I bothered that it's going to PC with all these extras I will never experience? Nope, why? It's just a game >.>


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## chronoteeth (Aug 15, 2007)

Yeesh, it's not like it'll even be a bad game. Sure it may not be the super ultra aRPG point n' click fest that fans desire, but at least they're getting a sequel that they all asked for, and i'll bet my money on it that it'll be a great game.


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## ADF (Aug 15, 2007)

Tundon said:
			
		

> You're right... it is just a game... so I don't understand why people care so much? I'm a console gamer, have been since I was like 5 or whatever. Gears of War - Released on 360 in November 2006, was supposed to be exclusive to the 360, but now the PC is getting the game, with stuff that was cut out of the 360 version because they had a deadline to reach. I love GoW it's currently one of my favourite games, I bought all the new content and such... but am I bothered that it's going to PC with all these extras I will never experience? Nope, why? It's just a game >.>


People complain because they care; you could easily say something is just a book/movie/painting, if something someone cares about gets bought out and screwed up people being upset is natural. Are you going to go to the people who complained about IRobot being nothing like the book it is supposedly based on and say â€œit is only a book, get over itâ€? If you aren't a particular fan of something, then you cannot really comment on those who are upset about seeing it defaced.

Plus GOW that was designed completely on 360 being ported to PC, isn't anything like a PC game being designed on 360 and then ported back to the system the series was actually from.



			
				chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Yeesh, it's not like it'll even be a bad game. Sure it may not be the super ultra aRPG point n' click fest that fans desire, but at least they're getting a sequel that they all asked for, and i'll bet my money on it that it'll be a great game.


Probably in the same way that Oblivion was a great game to everyone, except the people who were actually long time fans of the TES series. Really now this is a Bioshock thread so this is off topic and getting dragged on, but people shouldn't presume their enjoyment means others enjoyment.


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## psion (Aug 15, 2007)

Foxstar said:
			
		

> If you understood what Gates is aiming for, you would understand better why the 360 gets MS's full attention gaming wise first and then the PC gets the ports. Gates delivered the right product at the right time and did everything he had to do get the roadblocks out of the way. That's what made him what he is today, not the users. Don't hold your breath on the Linux case. Linux users for years have and more of them drop dead by the day. Study the legal system some more and see that save for the goverment nationlizing Microsoft, they aren't going away unless the market at LARGE declares they no longer want what they have to offer. That's not happened yet, most people outside of the tech and nerd wars in mags and on fourms don't give a shit that Microsoft is largely the only game in town, it works, somewhat stable and with a little brains, you'll not have to worry.



Just... You go have your delusions and I'll go have mine.  Kthx bye.


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## Foxstar (Aug 15, 2007)

> Do yourself a big favour, stay away from Fallout 3. Don't read about it, don't look at it, don't even peak into discussions about it. What they have done to that game would make a Fallout fan scream in rage, save yourself the pain.



And thank you for proving my point about Fallout fanboys who would all have us jump in our time machines and change nothing about the series. Let's not forget that as loud and in your fourms, flaming up yur threads as the fanboys are, Fallout was not the massive break though critical hit they act like it was. I've played both, thought they were lovely games, but I understand that a dev needs to appeal to a larger group of people then PC devs once did (Let's not forget for all the fanboy toesucking Interplay did, they are all but a faded memory because sucking rabid fanboy taint gives you a devoted following but at the same time often does not pay the bills and forces you to bend over to lick that taint cleaner then you did before in order to keep your 'fans' happy. Profit? Sure you might make more if you don't pigeonhole your game for a select group but hell, you've got your 'fans' who would murder your wife and children in a heartbeat if they knew it might keep you from maybe focusing on a wider marketshare.

I need to find that quote from Tycho about Fallout fanboys, it was sheer gold. God bless Bethesda for taking on a task no sane dev would. I hope they just focus on making it as good as possable and playable on my damned 360 as anything else and deal with the fanboys second or never because save for flying 100 of the biggest ones to their HQ and giving them full oversight duties, they will still bitch and moan and cry and wail.

Bioshock is good, it will be lovely, you PC gamers will get your verison with enough stuff to possably keep the most sane of you happy while the rabid will wail regardless. As for you PC gamers angry that your playing 2nd fiddle to consoles? Get used to it because it's been coming for years and your fellow PC users have largely brought it down on your own heads. Meanwhile I'll stick to my consoles and use my PC for net, porn and RTS's, till devs can release a console RTS that works with a pad (lol)


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## ceacar99 (Aug 15, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Yeesh, it's not like it'll even be a bad game. Sure it may not be the super ultra aRPG point n' click fest that fans desire, but at least they're getting a sequel that they all asked for, and i'll bet my money on it that it'll be a great game.



http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-2/fallout-brotherhood-of-steel/493885p1.html

from what ive seen in bethesda interviews fallout 3 will be along the lines of this SHITTY title... this title(despite getting a fair rating in the review) was scorned not only by the fallout fanboys but pretty much the entire gaming community. they turned a good rpg into a retard fest....



> The great majority of Brotherhood is spent in button-hammering combat



ya take a rpg full of wit, charm and intelligence and degrade it into that. real bright idea. even though bethesdas pile of trash wont be quite the same it will be along those lines, and i bet you that they will remove all the minor jokes and quirks that filled the first 2 fallouts. people will be boring and bland like in oblivion...



> Bioshock is good, it will be lovely, you PC gamers will get your verison with enough stuff to possably keep the most sane of you happy while the rabid will wail regardless. As for you PC gamers angry that your playing 2nd fiddle to consoles? Get used to it because it's been coming for years and your fellow PC users have largely brought it down on your own heads. Meanwhile I'll stick to my consoles and use my PC for net, porn and RTS's, till devs can release a console RTS that works with a pad (lol)



there are plenty of good pc only titles however people tend to ignore them. if it isnt built for a retard it isn't usually worth mass attention. truth is that these days the general trend not just as a cause of consoles has been to make your game stupid as shit. however there are still many many minor hold out companies that flat out refuse to compromise quality, almost all of which are pc only companies. bioshock is made by one of the few companies that refuses to compromise quality and actually ports its game to consoles.

so ya, the best i can say is that you guys can marvel at the trash they feed you and i will continue to hunt down and enjoy hidden gems that most everyone else doesn't notice. hell at least i know without mass attention those games wont be butchered like in the case of fallout....


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## psion (Aug 16, 2007)

Okay back on topic people.  For those of you who've played the demo, is it worth the fifty-five dollars or so for a PC copy?
Second, did you get any cool engineering powers or saw something other then the hacking system?


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## chronoteeth (Aug 16, 2007)

worth it and then some!


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## psion (Aug 16, 2007)

Thank you, that's very encouraging after the vidoes I saw on Gamespy...


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## chronoteeth (Aug 16, 2007)

Seriously, it's wonderful.


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## Armaetus (Aug 16, 2007)

Big deal, at least the PC version will be user moddable, unlike consoles...


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 16, 2007)

User mods.... Eeeewwwwwww...

Seriously. Ewwwwwwwwww... I have yet to play a user mod that I acually liked.

I'm all for consoles on this one.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 16, 2007)

plz delete for some reason it double posted what i said. prolly my fault, lol.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 16, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> User mods.... Eeeewwwwwww...
> 
> Seriously. Ewwwwwwwwww... I have yet to play a user mod that I acually liked.
> 
> I'm all for consoles on this one.



hrmm... team fortress classic? counter strike? day of defeat? red orchestra? firearmsmod? the battlegrounds? 

fact is that the most popular game to date(cs) is a user mod. now i can get what you mean if you say you dont want to play a single player user mod. one worth playing is much harder to find...



> And thank you for proving my point about Fallout fanboys who would all have us jump in our time machines and change nothing about the series. Let's not forget that as loud and in your fourms, flaming up yur threads as the fanboys are, Fallout was not the massive break though critical hit they act like it was.



first off your wrong about fallout being a breakthrough... here lets take a look...



			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> Fallout made #4 on the list of top games of all time produced by PC Gamer in 2001. It made #5 on the IGN list of the top 25 PC games of all time (IGN's list) ..... It also won the award of RPG of the Year from GameSpot, and has since been inducted into their "Greatest Games of All Time" list ..... It is notable that all review scores for Fallout are consistently high and none are lower than an 8, with the only criticism involving its graphics



i know i quoted wikipedia but it was just the quickest way to get a brief glance at the game. ACCORDING TO REVIEWS AND SALES IT WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST TITLES OF ALL TIME. sorry but that fact cannot be refuted. interplay got fucked for reasons other then fallout. fallout was downright fuckin successful. 

second there is a difference in chaning some things in the game. like the difference between fallout 1 and 2 is pretty large, and the difference between fallout 2 and fallout tactics(in just behavior since tactics didnt have a "conversation engine") is worlds apart. however each consecutive one was a improvement on the original concepts. the crap bethesda is trying to feed us is IS NOT FUCKING FALLOUT. FALLOUT IS A TURNED BASED ROLE PLAYING GAME. they removed the most basic game concepts from the game. imagine if final fantasy was turned into a shooter and you will see what i am bitching about here. 

once again, there is a difference between the evolution of gameplay in a series and making a sequel to a game that is in no gameplay mechanic is like the original. if your going to do that name it something else and quit trying to fool people with this bull of "its a equal to the original" or "its a spiritual sequel" because its not holding water when change is that dramatic.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 16, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> User mods.... Eeeewwwwwww...
> 
> Seriously. Ewwwwwwwwww... I have yet to play a user mod that I acually liked.
> 
> I'm all for consoles on this one.



You definitely have a point there. I don't see this game having too many mods.


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## FuzzyPinkRaptor (Aug 19, 2007)

Bioshock..kinda weirded me out..I liked it..but it was weird.

Stranglehold was some fun stuff! Tequila became the new action hero! XD
Tip your bottles and empty your glasses in his name! XD
X3
I find it funny that's his name.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 19, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> At least we know it'll be a good 1st/3rd person *RPG*, unlike shadowrun.


We're talking about the people who made Oblivion and comparing it to a team that actually made C-RPG's.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 19, 2007)

FuzzyPinkRaptor said:
			
		

> Bioshock..kinda weirded me out..I liked it..but it was weird.



lol thats sorta the point. its supposed to be weird and often even scary. you are supposed to marvel at the strangeness of the place and be freaked out by all the bio modifications(such as the lightning or the fire you get in the demo). truthfully even though some of the things in the game from what i saw could use the improvement i think it will be a fantastic play.

unfortunately because ive played system shock too much i get in "survival mode". my friends were weirded out when i was calmly humming as i searched through corpses, while listening to the final recorded moments of some poor soul as well as hearing "the many" closing in...  so the horror elements in bioshock may very well be lost on me... lol.


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## psion (Aug 19, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Vornesoul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That only depends on the accessability of the editing tools and how creative the users are.  I can see the basic mechanics lending themselves very well to a superhero adventure or more modern biopunk thriller if the modders have the time and the drive to make it happen.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 19, 2007)

Bokracroc said:
			
		

> chronoteeth said:
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> ...



I loved oblivion. You guys can say otherwise, but I'm pretty damn sure that you won't get a game thats the same caliber as shadowrun, cause damn man, you can say otherwise, but at least you know they care for their product. They'll make sure it's a good game.

Plus, if it's anyone's wondering about questions, there was a big question thingy going on over at the site.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 20, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Bokracroc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what bokracroc was saying is that oblivion isnt really an rpg. its a stat based adventure. in all of the fallouts(save the only fallout platform port released to date) the character's stats determined his ability to acomplish tasks such as shooting an enemy. low skill or stats means hits are less likely. oblivion however used the character's stats to determine damage and nothing else(save for lousy perks distanced far from each other). this removed one of the primary fundamentals in the rpg system. instead of the player's character determining accomplishment a player with exceptional skill can negate any faults in his character and accomplish what he shouldn't accomplish ever. an example in oblivion is picking locks, a level one without the security skill favored as a major or even a minor skill should NEVER be able to pick the best lock in the game but because i know what to listen for i can make ANY character defeat the best locks in the game no problem. in fact none of my characters in the past 6 months have EVER broken a pick... 

the worry here is that fallout 3 will be butchered like that. in the past 3 fallouts(including tactics) a character with a high small arms skill and high perception is quite capable of making long range called shots to the eye and getting titanic critical hits. however if i understand what bethesda did to fallout 3 character stats wont matter for that, you just put the reticle over your enemy's face and press fire.... one has real rp elements the other is a shooter with stats....

*sigh* im gonna go ask some questions on the forums for the game. see if i can dig up some real truth on how the combat will work. so far im commenting only on my limited understanding of fallout 3's system.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 20, 2007)

Oh snap.

Or in a nutshell:
What's more likely to happen in a RPG and what's more likely to happen in an Action based game?

Take a low leveled skill in Oblivion (say Hand-To-Hand) and take a swing at someone. Whack. You hit, go you! Try again.
Whack. You hit, go you!
And repeat

Take a low leveled skill in Fallout (say Unarmed) and take a swing at someone. More than likely, Swish!
Try again, Swish!
If you're lucky you might score a hit, but for piddly damage so stick to the stick your good at unless you want to bang some points on that (which in the end-game of Fallout 2 you want Energy and maybe Heavy weapons).


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## psion (Aug 20, 2007)

Both of you, we have other threads for that discussion, either go over there or get back on topic. 
<The majority of my angst here is being saved for a seperate thread, this deserves more then a measely paragraph>
Stats are a obsolete relic from D&D.  Technically they are not needed in the new freeform games where you can easily define your character by how you play and Bioshock is shaping up to be the one to lead the way in a new age of video games.  Thank you Mr. Levine, you restored my faith in PC gaming, no longer is a true RPer chained to arcane numbers and stats, now the only character sheet a player needs is the one inbetween his ears.


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 20, 2007)

I don't see Bioshock as an RPG.

Many people have whined that the plasimds are 'magic' and that the tonics are 'stats' but I think they can stuff it. They arn't those things, you simply wish for them to be so. How can a genre progress if your busy stuffing other lables down it's throat?

If an FPS is not allowed having creative weapons like plasmids, if it is only allowed to stick with the basics, how will it ever progress?

You do not create a character in Bioshock. Judging from the demo and the reviews I have seen, your a pretty big no-body. You don't even know your name unless you bothered to check the box at the start.

'Jack'. At least we knew Gordan's last name. Does that make Half-Life a RPG?


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## ADF (Aug 20, 2007)

Psion, I'd appreciate it if you didn't verbally rape the RPG genre just to get back at a few people in this thread.

The developers of Bioshock have said countless times it is first and foremost a shooter, peoples discussion on RPGs is regarding Fallout and Oblivion.

[edit]

Which frankly I said on page 2, needs to keep on topic to avoid fighting.


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## psion (Aug 20, 2007)

Bokracroc said:
			
		

> Oh snap.
> 
> Or in a nutshell:
> What's more likely to happen in a RPG and what's more likely to happen in an Action based game?
> ...



Okay, after a heated PM with ADF it appears the last time I tried refuting this it came out *very* wrong.  Let's try it again.
I'm sorry, but in Real Life the RPG, you can still pummel a man with your bare fists despite having lacking the "Unarmed combat skill."  To continue the real world example, it takes no skill for me to say, punch you in the face.  Balling your hands and putting up your dukes is something everyone either learned in elementry school or high school, one way or another.
Granted, it's not the best way to approach hand to hand combat but it works quite well.  And now you're telling me that a game system where I flatout miss a man's face with my fist even though I'm close enough to smell his breath is realistic?
Learning how to handle yourself in a fight is where most of the training should come from.  Any idiot can hit, stab, or shoot another guy for the bare miniumum of damage, but it's the competent fighters you have to watch out for...
The point, as long and as drawn out as it is, is that Bioshock is better served by not letting whether or not you get that headshot with that revolver be decided by a random dice roll.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 20, 2007)

the system shocks were NEVER rpgs. they were stat based adventures. you actually swing the wrench at your enemy and not relying on the skill of your avatar. the only limitation is that if your avatar isnt skilled enough he wont be able to use a weapon or will have limited damage. bioshock is fine with its system.

however what you dont seem to understand is the name ROLE PLAYING GAME. as in you play the character's ROLE. so if you remove the character's effect in the game and make it all about your own personal real life abilities then you aren't playing the role of your character huh?



> now the only character sheet a player needs is the one inbetween his ears.



you mentioned d&d, well in that environment people would call that thought process metagame thinking. as in thinking outside of what your character would know. an example another character in the game has a situation seperate from your character but you listen in and use the knowledge of that event as if your character actually knew it all.

in a rpg it isnt about your damn skill, its about your character. its ALL about your character. if your character isnt good enough tough luck, because its not about you. its about the character you developed. this is true in games like fallout as well, but many people like you dont seem to understand that.

now lets use the unarmed skill example you opened up. yes anyone can form up fists and hit someone if they dont do anything. however you have to have some skill to form up fists and hit someone if they are struggling back against you. the chance to hit is based on that concept. when you enter a fight your enemy is fighting back and so your low chance to hit is based on your low ability to effectively strike a moving fighting opponent. the issue here is that your paying too much attention to crappy animations and NOT WHAT THE ACTUAL GAME IS ABOUT. 

lol i probably could go on more on the subject but for now ill let this be as i dont have the time....


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## ADF (Aug 20, 2007)

I have just come back from trying out the Bioshock demo, I have to say I have mixed feelings.

It was a great, though a tad short, demo. The atmosphere was brilliant; you get a real sinister dog eat dog feeling from the world that you are in, kind of freaky if you let it get to you. The game was optimised very well, a little fine tuning and it was playable on a last generation GPU (7900GT) which says a thing or two about the crappy job other developers do on their games.

I have to say however; like the screenshot of the graphics menu that first brought up the concern, the game doesn't offer many of the tweaking options you would expect. Many of the options are just on or off, the game isn't very scalable for obtaining the best balance between quality and performance plus the gains for lowering settings is in the single digits most of the time. 

It also lacked common place computer options like AA and AF, it looks like they have to be forced on outside of the game which is very odd for a modern title. Like I said the game is very well optimised, which may make up for the lack of tweaking options, however we will have to let those with lower end hardware decided if it is good enough.

Another thing I didn't like was the looting, I may have missed something here but it would seem when you loot a container you have to take everything. Say for instance a body contained both money and alcohol, alcohol damages adam in exchange for health so you probably only want the money, but unless I simply missed the controls it seems you are forced to pick up and drink that alcohol if you want the money. Which begs to question where is the inventory I recall seeing in the screenshots? Both weapons and plasmids are accessed in game, medical and eve kits are also accessed via hotkeys. Any other items in the game get used automatically upon picking them up.

Another thing was the hacking system; I'm not very fond of mini games but that wasn't the problem. The button to speed up the liquid is both located on screen and your right mouse button, so it is quite easy to right click and have the hacked object overload by accident. If they left the speed up button to only the button on the screen then it wouldn't be a problem.

Other than these, I'm looking forward to the game.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 21, 2007)

Stat based adventures = ACTION RPGS! :O

You could say that "mass army unit construction adventure" is also STRATEGY RPGS!

There's different types of rpgs, so really, isn't it much easier to say action rpg than stat based whatever?


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## ADF (Aug 21, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Stat based adventures = ACTION RPGS! :O
> 
> You could say that "mass army unit construction adventure" is also STRATEGY RPGS!
> 
> There's different types of rpgs, so really, isn't it much easier to say action rpg than stat based whatever?


I'll quickly comment on this; saying something is an action RPG suggests it actually contains RPG elements, if it is just a action game with stats slapped on then you might as well just call it that.

There is more to role playing games than just stats, so a action game with stats is not a action RPG.


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## ADF (Aug 21, 2007)

Ok, this has to be some sort of a sick joke.

I have just learned, and confirmed through testing, that you cannot enable AA in Bioshock unless you have Vista and DirectX10.

DirectX games have supported AA for years, what the hell did they do with Bioshock to make it unusable unless you are running Vista with DX10? Someone with technical knowledge rationalise this, because all I can think of is 360 PR and another asshole attempt by Microsoft to encourage Vista adoption.

[edit]

I'm going to look into this further, I may have read something wrong, I cannot see this as being the case.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 21, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> chronoteeth said:
> 
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> ...



And thats what oblivion has.


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## Hakar (Aug 21, 2007)

I played the demo yesterday, and I can't say I noticed the lack of AntiAliasing.


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## ADF (Aug 21, 2007)

Hakar said:
			
		

> I played the demo yesterday, and I can't say I noticed the lack of AntiAliasing.


I have to admit; the games dark setting does make jaggies less visible, but that does not excuse it. All 3D games for the last couple of years have supported AA, even if they couldn't be enabled in the game they could still be forced on in the GPU drivers. Bioshock outright refuses to work with AA, even if it is forced on in options, hell the 360 version seems to have some AA turned on which just adds to the insult.

The idea that it could be some artificial limitation to promote Vista is infuriating, I need someone with a GPU that supports AA+HDR to confirm that it still won't enable in WinXP. Upgrading a GPU to bump up the resolution to reduce jaggies is one thing, but when you reach your native res AA is the only way to smooth them out.

This could all be worry for nothing of course, but what is being said online regarding the demo suggests that this is the case.

[edit]

Jeez look at this, people are resorting to .ini tweaks to force AA on.

[edit]



> Q. Does Unreal Tournament 3 support HDR rendering with Anti-aliasing?
> 
> A. Yes, on Windows Vista. On all PC platforms, we support running with 16-bit-per-component frame buffer (64 bits total). MSAA anti-aliasing support is only enabled on DirectX 10, because the deferred rendering techniques used by the engine require some capabilities not included in DirectX 9.


Well that explains allot, what were they thinking making a design choice that limits the use of AA? Whatever the case it will be a few months before I upgrade my GPU, plenty of time to find a proper work around for AA and AF.


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## Duster (Aug 21, 2007)

I'm still playing Suikoden 2, who cares about Gamebox 180 or whatever it's called.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 21, 2007)

well the release date is almost here. i played the demo on my computer and despite my piece of shit 1.41ghz(64 bit) processor, 1gb ram and crappy nvidia 6600 vid card it ran just fine. i had to tone it down a little but it ran just fine. personally i am pleased that irrational games has not yet lost its roots.

btw what's everyone's bet on how likely it is that super powered monkeys will show up in bioshock? . they only wound up in system shock because they had the motion capture equipment for a few more hours durring development after they finished everything else and someone said "i like monkeys....", lol.


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## Duster (Aug 21, 2007)

Does anyone remember Gears of War?

Cause I don't


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## psion (Aug 21, 2007)

Well, it at least warms my heart that Bioshock has a chance to run on my PC.  As for easter eggs... I'm still holding out for seeing two Splicers doing the Jitterbug (a popular dance of the era) on a ceiling somewhere.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 21, 2007)

psion said:
			
		

> Bokracroc said:
> 
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Any competent fighter can avoid and repel an incompetent opponent.
Throw a schoolboy into a boxing ring with an actual boxer. The only that kid will hit is a block (if he's lucky) and the floor.

Anyways, since I can't actually run Bioshock, I'll go play my disk version of System Shock 1.


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## ADF (Aug 21, 2007)

Anyone here hear about the widescreen issue? Apparently they support widescreen resolutions, but the screen is really 4:3 being cropped.

Visual example

To see for yourself try playing in widescreen, you can hardly see the characters tattoo.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 21, 2007)

At least it's got support to start with. Once they get it out it shouldn't be too hard a thing to fix with along other bugs that might come with it.


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## sgolem (Aug 21, 2007)

Bokracroc said:
			
		

> At least it's got support to start with. Once they get it out it shouldn't be too hard a thing to fix with along other bugs that might come with it.


...And the other bugs that came with it are apparently a pretty big problem.

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=42

Seems like a lot of people are having trouble even getting it to run.  Really sucks, since it sorta demonstrates firsthand what ADF was talking about with consoles being the big and only priority now.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 22, 2007)

I'd blame the Internet over the Consoles. The Internet has made Developers and Publishers lazy. Why iron out the bugs when you can launch the game, fix them as they come along then release a patch.


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## ADF (Aug 22, 2007)

I've just learned about Bioshocks anti piracy protection; it is absolutely ridicules, they have the customers jumping through hoops to make this thing work.

Basically they keep your games serial on a server for validation, the server allows you to install the game two times before it will block additional installs. So install the game once, server says you have 1 of 2 installs left. To get back that install you must uninstall the game and allow it to access their server again to give you back a additional install.

If the game gets uninstalled for whatever reason outside of their system; whether offline uninstall, virus, HDD corruption, OS failure etc. The server will not give you back that additional install and you will lose it. The only way to get it back is to either re-buy the game, or phone up the developers of this system and convince them you deserve another install. From what I have read of peoples experiences they ask the most unrelated questions, one person said they could use the details they gathered for identity fraud if they wanted.

In the meantime I am sure the game is already getting cracked somewhere so pirates can enjoy unlimited installs with no fuss.


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## sgolem (Aug 22, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> *bullshit piracy protection*
> 
> In the meantime I am sure the game is already getting cracked somewhere so pirates can enjoy unlimited installs with no fuss.


I say, Amen!  

Piracy protection like this is a huge turnoff for me, and many others.  I actually _do_ pay for games, and I expect I should be able to play them ten years and several computers in the future if I want to.  
I think so-called "Piracy Protection" like this is only going to encourage more piracy in the future.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 23, 2007)

lol adf, if you wind up having to beg them for another install just turn to the pirates. they will find a method of getting around the stupid anti piracy system they have. either by creating a program that fakes the server or just a simple crack that removes the need for validation. hey wait a moment! its like a quote from their very own damn game!

"sure, they can make it hack proof. doesn't mean we aren't going to hack it"

added: oh wait lol you already suggested a pirate crack .


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## Dead-Zero (Aug 23, 2007)

Just want to say, i beat this game yesterday and was really disapointed.
It was nowhere near as good as they said it was gonna be, and it was NOT anything NEAR an RPG, just a shooter with extra magical powers. with the gun mods, there was only 2 per gun, not as custamizable as they said it was.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 24, 2007)

Dead-Zero said:
			
		

> Just want to say, i beat this game yesterday and was really disapointed.
> It was nowhere near as good as they said it was gonna be, and it was NOT anything NEAR an RPG, just a shooter with extra magical powers. with the gun mods, there was only 2 per gun, not as custamizable as they said it was.



they claim it has rpg elements because you can level up your health, "mana" or choose to gain new abilities with adam. you even get the ability to open up new slots for abilities to be actively equipped..

anyway i have one real thing to say.... seriously? i beat the game and i thought for the most part it was a fantastic game. cmon at least tell me the story itself was somewhat entertaining....


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## Janglur (Aug 24, 2007)

*Skips entire thread to ask an important question*


I'm told there are small rat-like fellows in BioShock.  Anyone seen?

[Also, HOLY GODDAMN FUCKING SHIT!  That thing has the most ludicrous system requirements i've ever heard of!]

CPU - Pentium 4 2.4GHz Single Core processor
System RAM - 1GB
Video Card - Direct X 9.0c compliant video card with 128MB RAM (NVIDIA 6600 or better/ATI X1300 or better, excluding ATI X1550).
Hard disc space - 8GB free space

I have a 1.8 GHz AMD Athlon64 Venice, 2 GB RAM, and an ATI x550!  This is the first game that's come out in many years that I would have to upgrade for.  Usually my upgrades precede the games.
Apparently game demands are growing faster than yesteryear.


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## Hakar (Aug 24, 2007)

sgolem said:
			
		

> ADF said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is man not entitled to the game he buys?

NO, says the man at Securom. It belongs to 2K.
NO, says the man at 2K. It belongs to us.
NO, says the man at Microsoft. It belongs to our license purchasers. 

I rejected those answers.

Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...piracy! Where the gamer would not be censored, where the PC owner would not be bound by petty encryption, where the buyer would not be constrained by corporate greed. And with the downloading of your torrents, piracy could become your salvation


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## ceacar99 (Aug 24, 2007)

erm janglur my computer is like 2-3 years old and i run it just fine.....(1.4ghz 64 bit, 1gb ram, nvidia 6600).

anyway hakar there is one interesting thing i thought of. you are not presented with the user end agreement for the software UNTIL you buy the game. now because you cant return a pc game your royally fucked if you dont agree to the conditions set by the agreement(in the case of bioshock having to deal with their excessive piracy protection). so in some senses you might be able to sue the distributer of the game because you bought the game and THEN they show you the agreement you must adhere to in order to play the game. it can quite easily be looked at as a scam...


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## ADF (Aug 25, 2007)

I knew the protection on Bioshock is pretty bad, but someone at the inquirer is going to get in trouble for actually recommending you pirate the game.

This protection system has caused a huge mess, they would have been better off if they went with steam or something.


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## chronoteeth (Aug 26, 2007)

In other bioshock news, Bioshock burns pc down, and operantly, some have had this happened on the console version as well. No electronic is safe...


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## Bokracroc (Aug 26, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> I knew the protection on Bioshock is pretty bad, but someone at the inquirer is going to get in trouble for actually recommending you pirate the game.
> 
> This protection system has caused a huge mess, *they would have been better off if they went with steam or something.*


They did go with Steam. They just did went with another method with the physical version.


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## ADF (Aug 26, 2007)

Bokracroc said:
			
		

> They did go with Steam. They just did went with another method with the physical version.


Call me old fashioned but I like to have a physical copy of what I buy, they could have just used stream for the retail version instead of this mad securom crap that deters people from buying such a interesting game. Why only the downloadable version? Steam works with retail products.


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 26, 2007)

I took it out of it's case...

Put it in my 360...

Pressed the power button.

No install times or SecuROM bullshit.


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## ADF (Aug 26, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> I took it out of it's case...
> 
> Put it in my 360...
> 
> ...


Let's not take this thread down that rout.


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## TehSean (Aug 27, 2007)

Vornesoul said:
			
		

> User mods.... Eeeewwwwwww...
> 
> Seriously. Ewwwwwwwwww... I have yet to play a user mod that I acually liked.
> 
> I'm all for consoles on this one.



You mean like: Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat?

Those started out as 'user mods'. Sooo.. Yeah. I dunno. Go back under your ignorant rock?

As for all the secuRom BS. I didn't have any trouble installing it. With 30 minutes of research, I'm going to have no trouble UNinstalling when I'm through enjoying the game. I know that a great number of people, probably not one of you in this thread anyway, are having real problems with it and not all the potential gripes you're all whining about.

Yeah, I don't like it either, but it's not going to be a problem for me and it isn't a problem for anyone else either. As a crazy person, I just believe it was added on in order to popularize the X360 because without the SecuRom, the PC version would be superior.

People have said that the PC version's control scheme makes it easier to swap between plasmids and firearms "on the fly", you have the option, if it bothers you or not, to enable Anti-Aliasing, to enable DX10, to seek through google and reveal one of the first "*user mods*" that hacks the field of vision to make Widescreen Support on Bioshock a reality...

But not on Xbox360 because, I think it just plays from the disc and loads it into memory? And you can't modify the disc's content and load that widescreen fix into memory. Fortunately though, Ken Levine or some other representative claims that there will be a widescreen fix for all of your out there who actually want to see more, not less than the mainstream screen ratios.

No, it's not about which is better graphically, it's about which offers the most freedom and the best experience. I don't like shooters on Console besides.. Someone described the feel of them as "Pat my head and rub my stomach" which I think sums it up and paints FPSs on thumbsticks as childish pretty darn well.

So the only reasons holding you back from the PC title is that you didn't want to update your PC (which is far more reasonable to justify getting X360 over PC) and SecuRom, which.. can be removed with.. Gasp. Effort.

Yeah, I can see why "We shouldn't have to pay for SecuRom" but I don't see the harm in "Paying for the desire to have more games built like this one and just removing  SecuRom's functionality, sending the message we don't want it. It's *ours now* and we're still doing what we want with it, fuckers."


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 27, 2007)

TehSean said:
			
		

> Vornesoul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You forgot the rootkit. Oh wait! They want us to call it the 'DRM' even though it's the same damn thing. I don't want a company to have near full access to my hard drive, do you?

Second... I find it funny that you forget the "I have yet to play a user mod that I acually liked." then you say I should go back under my ignorant rock? I don't LIKE Counter-Strike nor Day of Defeat.


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## ceacar99 (Aug 27, 2007)

lol i dont like cs much either... in terms of hl based mods there are still TONS of options... tfc, firearmsmod, battlegrounds, the specialists, hostile intent, insurgency, source forts, dystopia, iron grip(realy unique one) are all exelent games in their own right and are worth a peek.... look if you want but it is silly to say "all mods are shitty".


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## TehSean (Aug 27, 2007)

You can remove the rootkit if you want to look it up.  But complaining and doing nothing about it is easier isn't it? It isn't an impossibility. And I'm not lying by just calling it SecuRom DRM. Rootkit rootkit rootkit.

Those mods were just used as examples of something user-made that became a commercial product. Weren't there Morrowind mods that were eventually used as the basis for new gameplay ideas in expansion packs and Oblivion? (Werewolves and vampirism) Some mods are just utilities that improve things.. Like the PC-friendly user interface mod for the PC version of Oblivion that expanded the map and displayed more inventory items on screen at once, taking advantage of higher resolutions and other widgets besides.

Ken Levine claims that they'll apparently be removing it in an upcoming patch. So keep on moaning over nothing. Just face that you've lost an argument or something. Bake a cake. I dunno. Go back to your pokemon cards or something.


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## Ray Kicio (Aug 27, 2007)

TehSean said:
			
		

> Ken Levine claims that they'll apparently be removing it in an upcoming patch. So keep on moaning over nothing. Just face that you've lost an argument or something. Bake a cake. I dunno. Go back to your pokemon cards or something.



Are you talking to me or the thread in general because...

If it is to me, I got the 360 version and had no intentions of getting the PC version from the start. I'm not 'moaning' over anything.

I must admit that it is really hard to loose an argument that never started in the first place.


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## ADF (Sep 3, 2007)

Holy crap, I just finished Bioshock. I can safely say from first hand none PR related experience that the game lives up to its hype. They did very well with it's design; unlike most of today's games nothing felt rushed or half assed, just to force it into the market fast enough to feed the hyped general public. The overall quality of the game was the closest you can come to perfection without mass public testing.

With the known issues like wide-screen, activation and subtitles aside I have no complaints about the game itself. This easily beats the other shooters I have played so far. There are plenty of plot twists and game play to keep you interested long into the game, even stuff to stop it getting repetitive near the end. Normally storyline would be secondary to action in a shooter but this game doesn't leave you wandering for long without something going on, RPG developers should be ashamed that a shooter has a better story than some of the mass produced crap they pass for RPGs these days.

I will definitely put this with my long time favourite games you can keep coming back to. It may not have as much replayability as say Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines but it is definitely a fun world to be in and explore.

Overall, a brilliant game that should hopefully put other developers to shame and get them to get their butt into gear. I don't know if Bioshock lives up to the expectations of system shock fans, but  even if it doesn't, I cannot perceive why anyone would dislike this game especially considering it is considered a spiritual sequel rather than a direct sequel to the franchise.

I supose it is the same mentality of Oblivion fans to those who didn't play the previous games, they don't know what is wrong unless they had that experience.


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## chronoteeth (Sep 3, 2007)

Is it really that hard to believe that there are people who enjoy something new (in the case of oblivion) over something old, even when people actually played the old to death?


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## ADF (Sep 3, 2007)

chronoteeth said:
			
		

> Is it really that hard to believe that there are people who enjoy something new (in the case of oblivion) over something old, even when people actually played the old to death?


When the new is a watered down, unimaginative, over simplified, targeted for a casual and broader audience, choice unresponsive, incomplete and half assed action orientated piece of crap â€œsequelâ€ that only exists to maintain current profit margins without a care for the standards expected from the series... then yes.

Is Quake 4 a fun game? Yes, does it meet the expectations and standards of the Half Life 2 fanbase? No, so how would that fanbase feel if Half Life 3 played more like a Quake game? It would be fun  wouldn't it? Games like Quake and Unreal Tournament have a huge fanbase, so what have the Half Life fanbase got to complain about? One groups fun is the same as another groups is it not?

Whatever the System Shock fans have against Bioshock at least it is a spiritual sequel that doesn't use its name, a System Shock 3 can still appear one day and continue the series. Unlike a few other series I could name that took franchises into a completely different direction, instead of making a new one to appeal to the different audience without butchering a existing series.

People can enjoy something new when it is actually new; there is nothing new or innovative about Oblivion, it is just more of the old but with allot taken away and rushed/simplified versions of what remained. Oblivion greatly damaged the respect I had for Bethesda, Fallout 3 from what I am hearing will finish it off. I can respect those who developed Bioshock because just walking around the game you can see they poured their heart into it, developer interviews after the hype also earn my respect, but Bethesda? They couldn't be bothered to finish essential content missing in their game, even a expansion and a few official mods later, feel the love.

Enjoy the game if you really do like it, but your enjoyment is not mine.

[edit]

Apologies, but post brought back angry memories regarding the disappointment of the game.


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