# Any programmers in here?



## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Okay, I actually already know the answer to this. I know there are at least several...

I just want to get a feel for what programming languages people are using, and in what capacity they program. (Professionally, as a student, as a hobby, as needed in another field, etc.)

Personally, I'm a Computer Engineering student. I'm fluent in several programming languages, and can get by in quite a few more.

Primary languages: C, C++, PHP (and the supporting JavaScript/HTML/CSS.)
Languages I'm passable at: Perl, several assemblers, VHDL*, Verilog*, Visual Basic

* I'm not sure that VHDL and Verilog qualify as programming languages. They're hardware description languages.


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

I have some basic skills, just because I'm a geek.   I prefer HTML and BASIC, although I recognize that C++ is widespread, as well.  I just think the latter is a little convoluted.


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Well, the language itself is quite straight-forward, but yes. I've seen some extremely convoluted C/C++ code.


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## DavidN (May 28, 2007)

I've got a BSc in computer science and I'm a coder for a living, and even I find the C family absolutely mad. When you start getting pointers to pointers to functions, it's enough to make your head explode.

Java and PHP are very nice, being the two that I've most used at work and for my own sites - Java was the language that was taught at my university, and I'd worked my way up on various versions of Basic and Comal (a very outdated Pascal-alike that my secondary school used).

JSP is absolutely insane, and unfortunately the other language I use all the time at work. Choose-when-otherwise instead of if-then-else, I ask you.

I also write games in my spare time, using a more graphics/event-oriented developing program called Multimedia Fusion 2. And it's great, incidentally.


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Choose-when-otherwise? Geez. It's not as bad as assembler, though.


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

Really?  I have a coder friend.  I do 3d modeling, so we're working on a few games.  And, quite frankly, we've found Dark Basic a tad confining, if easy to use.

Now, if you really want to know your roots, go for good old Fotraan and Cobol.
^_^


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## codewolf (May 28, 2007)

im a student at uni learning java, can do lots and lots of html, done a bit o VB + (turbo)pascal at school, am learning php as a hobby...  like my code that was short sweet and to the point


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Interesting. I've seen a lot of people say that they are learning Java in school.

Is my school the only school that does computer science in C and C++?


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## cataloof (May 28, 2007)

asm

java


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

NO, C++ is pretty widespread, like I said before.  A lot of places use homebrew languages, and C++ ability is just a prerequisite.  It's actually kind of funny... you're learning a lot of languages that you'll never use.  They'll just help you learn other languages that you will.  A sad irony, but what can you do?


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Not much.

Given the type of work I want to go into, though, I'd imagine that the assemblers and the HDL's I know are going to be the most valuable to me.


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

What type of work are you considering?


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## kamunt (May 28, 2007)

I taught myself HTML and TI-83/84 Visual BASIC, or whatever it's called. My HTML skills were reinforced here 3rd quarter, while I finally got to learn JavaScript this (4th/last) quarter. I have begun to teach myself PHP, as well, starting with Learning PHP 5, published by O'Reilly. I think I've done something wrong with my Apache2 server and my PHP, however, because Apache seems to keep breaking everytime I try to stop the server, now, LMAO. <_>; And I still can't just "open" a PHP file I've created, I have to put it into my Apache files folder first then access the file through my Web browser, a pain-and-a-half when I'm just trying to view it. Then again, it was a huge project just finding the right damn file to download, LOL. :? Starting next year, I'll be learning Java in my Comp. Sci. class, too. Big fun. :3


First post, yaaaayy~!.


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

OH yes...  good old Calculator BASIC...
I remember it well.

And welcome to the site!
*glompage*


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Kris_Reizer said:
			
		

> What type of work are you considering?


Probably VLSI design.



			
				kamunt said:
			
		

> And I still can't just "open" a PHP file I've created, I have to put it into my Apache files folder first then access the file through my Web browser, a pain-and-a-half when I'm just trying to view it.


You can't "just open" a PHP file to view it any more than you can "just run" a C/C++/Java program without compiling it.

It's a rather annoying aspect of programming. (I usually just edit my PHP files directly in the Apache folder. Heck, my FreeBSD box has Apache user-folder and Samba set up just for this purpose.)


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

... forgive me, but I'm but a weekend programmer.
What is VSLI?


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

... forgive me, but I'm but a weekend programmer.
What is VLSI?


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Wikipedia describes it better than I ever could:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Very-large-scale integration (VLSI) is the process of creating integrated circuits by combining thousands of transistor-based circuits into a single chip.


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## kamunt (May 28, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Wikipedia describes it better than I ever could:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



VERY scientific stuff, as you can plainly see. XD



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> kamunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aw. Suckage. So I can't even just open in my Web browser? That's silly. True though, that I probably would just be doing all of my editing in the Apache folder, anyways, especially since I'm in the (slow) process of learning.


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## uncia (May 28, 2007)

(re. VLSI: Believe me, it ain't as interesting as it doesn't sound... w/apols. to ya, net-cat )


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## Kris_Reizer (May 28, 2007)

Ah, I see.  But, what does that have to do with programming?


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## DavidN (May 28, 2007)

uncia said:
			
		

> (re. VLSI: Believe me, it ain't as interesting as it doesn't sound... w/apols. to ya, net-cat )



It's you! Didn't you come out with the same degree as me? (I replied to that email you sent ages ago, by the way, though I formatted my computer about five minutes later and I'm not sure if it ever arrived.)


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## codewolf (May 28, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> Aw. Suckage. So I can't even just open in my Web browser? That's silly. True though, that I probably would just be doing all of my editing in the Apache folder, anyways, especially since I'm in the (slow) process of learning.



actually the web address if you set it up correctly should be

```
http://localhost/(folder name)/(filename).php
```
or if you were to browse to it (to save files/create folders) would be: Crogram filesApache Software FoundationApache2.2htdocs

generally i put all my sites in subfolders in the apache main folder (htdocs) so if i wanted to view the furry.php(for example) file in a subfolder called furry i would type into my browser

```
http://localhost/furry/furry.php
```

i have dreamweaver and notepad set up to automatically copy to that folder which i use as my testing server before any of my code goes "live"


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> Aw. Suckage. So I can't even just open in my Web browser? That's silly. True though, that I probably would just be doing all of my editing in the Apache folder, anyways, especially since I'm in the (slow) process of learning.


No, it isn't. PHP is parsed by the server, not the browser. If your browser sees PHP, it wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with it.

Although, I suppose it would be possible to write a PHP plug-in for Firefox.



			
				uncia said:
			
		

> (re. VLSI: Believe me, it ain't as interesting as it doesn't sound... w/apols. to ya, net-cat )


You know what subject I find really boring? Archeology. But my sister won't believe me when I tell her that archeology is really boring. 



			
				Kris_Reizer said:
			
		

> Ah, I see.  But, what does that have to do with programming?


VLSI? A lot. You'd be surprised how much programming there is involved in microchip design.


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## codewolf (May 28, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> You'd be surprised how much programming there is involved in microchip design.


yea... true... i mean they have to make sure the microwave works


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)




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## codewolf (May 28, 2007)

:lol: im sorry it had to be said 

(and  for those still clueless there used to be a brand of fries by macain called microchips )


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## net-cat (May 28, 2007)

Is that a UK thing? I've never actually heard of it...


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## codewolf (May 28, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Is that a UK thing? I've never actually heard of it...


yea i think so


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## Bennu (May 28, 2007)

uhh well I'm working on a webmaster degree... mostly HTML and PHP with a touch of C and JavaScript... starting on ASP this semester (tomorrow morning actually)(yes, summer classes BLEH but I'll GTFO sooner)


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## codewolf (May 28, 2007)

Bennu said:
			
		

> uhh well I'm working on a webmaster degree... mostly HTML and PHP with a touch of C and JavaScript... starting on ASP this semester (tomorrow morning actually)(yes, summer classes BLEH but I'll GTFO sooner)



yuck....ASP... horrible...i much prefer php


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## net-cat (May 29, 2007)

I'm going to learn .NET/C#/ASP one of these days. But I'm lazy...


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## codewolf (May 29, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> I'm going to learn .NET/C#/ASP one of these days. But I'm lazy...



vb.net is virtually identical to ASP so that cuts one off your list


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## Cybergarou (May 29, 2007)

I do web programming as a hobby and have used PHP, HTML, and Coldfusion(never again).

I've written a couple programs for other people using C++ and Visual Basic.

Since I'm in the field of meteorology looking to get into a programming job I had to learn Fortran. Unfortunately all of the weather models are still full of Fortran77 and 90 code.


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## eb7w5yfe (May 29, 2007)

I program in C and C# at work.  The C is all embedded stuff: custom hardware, and no operating system.  The programming part is fine, I like function pointers and the like.  It can be difficult working with the hardware though: IRQs and VICs and FIQs and GPIOs and prescalers and and... blah.  I use C# whenever the embedded devices need to talk to a PC, and it makes for a nice change.  Not too fond of doing database stuff though; I'd never want to be stuck doing normal business app development.

Lately I've been playing with Python on my own time.  It's a lot of fun.  Very quick and easy to make things work.


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## yak (May 29, 2007)

asm, basic, pascal, c, c++, prolog, php, sql, javascript, css, html, xml, some java and jsp.

at the moment using only the ones after php, included.
on my way of learning python and ruby, forced upon by their requirement in the web developer's field of work.
if i had more time, i'd dive into actionscript.


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## Zasha (May 29, 2007)

I must at the bottom of the rope.. woo for self studying HTML and CSS. x3


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## DavidN (May 29, 2007)

I wouldn't say they were programming languages as such, more markup languages - but nevertheless, they're useful skills to have, and if you can get them right by self-studying you'll be doing better than me.

My university did teach a little C, but only for about a semester as part of a course on lower-level computer design and operating systems. There was also a small amount of Assembler involved (on a MIPS emulator), but no more than coding simple loops, and that was scary enough.

It seems that computer languages are going to keep on abstracting away from the actual machine code and what's happening to the memory underneath, and compiler writers are going to have most of the work in the future to get things running efficiently.


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## eb7w5yfe (May 29, 2007)

yak said:
			
		

> ... prolog ...



What do you use prolog for?  I had to write a couple programs in that for a college course (along with eiffel and lisp and some other less common languages).  I remember that it was interesting... quite a bit different from the usual c/java/etc.


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## yak (May 29, 2007)

eb7w5yfe said:
			
		

> yak said:
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Well, i used to use it to submit my laboratory works and finally, an exam.  Haven't found any better use for it, honestly.
Considering i've had 'special' relations with the professor, and they weren't all that good, i've had to take an extended course of that thing just to pass.


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## codewolf (May 29, 2007)

yak said:
			
		

> asm, basic, pascal, c, c++, prolog, php, sql, javascript, css, html, xml, some java and jsp.



lol i was expecting you to come out with a list like that considering you're a coder ninja


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## kamunt (May 29, 2007)

codewolf said:
			
		

> kamunt said:
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Oh, that's not what I meant! I meant just do, like, "Open with..." and then choose to open the file in IE or MF or something. Yeah, that's how I've been opening my PHP files now, the method you described (more or less). I know now that that just doesn't really work, though. And that's OK, I guess, but just a tad innerving (sp?).



			
				yak said:
			
		

> asm, basic, pascal, c, c++, prolog, php, sql, javascript, css, html, xml, some java and jsp.
> 
> at the moment using only the ones after php, included.
> on my way of learning python and ruby, forced upon by their requirement in the web developer's field of work.
> if i had more time, i'd dive into actionscript.



 Jebus, you really _are_ a code jockey... /envy I hope I can learn at least 1/2 of those languages well some day--I'd be more than satisfied with just those, LOL. :mrgreen:


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## eb7w5yfe (May 29, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> ... I hope I can learn at least 1/2 of those languages well some day ...


Once you really know how to program, the specific language isn't important.  It shouldn't take more than a few days to learn most new languages well enough to start working in them.  You just have to learn to think like a programmer- the ideas translate easily between most languages.

I'm not quite to that point yet.  I can pick up most imperative and object oriented languages quickly, but I really have to learn to use functional languages.  Python was a nice change because because it is a dynamic language while I've used mostly static ones, but it didn't require learning many new concepts like a functional language probably would.

Languages are easy to learn, but libraries can take a little longer.  They certainly have commonalities, but it can take time to learn where to find everything.  That's what documentation and references are for though.


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## Bloodangel (May 29, 2007)

I do java in college. You want my advice? Don't start on java. Java isn't nice to you. Here's an example of what can happen:

1. You write your code.
2. You go to compile your code.
3. You get 5 errors, but they're easy to fix.
4. You fix the errors, then go to compile again.
5. You get 27 complex errors.
6. You start to whimper as tears cloud your vision.

Damn you java, you ruined me.


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## codewolf (May 29, 2007)

Bloodangel said:
			
		

> I do java in college. You want my advice? Don't start on java. Java isn't nice to you. Here's an example of what can happen:
> 
> 1. You write your code.
> 2. You go to compile your code.
> ...



---PUI---
or you get what i get....
3 hours before an assignment hand in you start a massive project,
1 hour in you stop for 5 minutes for a cuppa (tea)
you compile the project 3 minutes before hand-in and have no errors and your code works perfectly
you hand it in and get 95% (lost 5% cos of a spelling error in documentation  )


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## DavidN (May 29, 2007)

You! You're one of those infuriating people who can write code at midnight after a night out, and still get good marks for it (I knew someone like that. His code was full of comments like "//You wrote this after nine pints - you won't remember what it does now, but don't remove it, it's very important." Meanwhile I was in the lab half the day.

If you think that's bad, Bloodangel, wait until you get your hands on C! At least Java gives an attempt to point out where the syntax error might be - in C you're lucky if it spits out "Segmentation fault" and dumps you back at the prompt.


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## codewolf (May 29, 2007)

DavidN said:
			
		

> You! You're one of those infuriating people who can write code at midnight after a night out, and still get good marks for it (I knew someone like that. His code was full of comments like "//You wrote this after nine pints - you won't remember what it does now, but don't remove it, it's very important."



yup  thats me alright:lol: i still remember our individual project assignments.... i had 15 people in one room...all with laptops, and me on my desktop, i did my assignment in 2 hours (got full marks for it actually) then coded someone elses assignment from scratch (got paid nicely for that), coded half of another persons assignemt (they were on the right track...just needed some tidying up) then helped out those 15 people with coding on their assignments, didnt get paid for the helping...was more of an open-room session in my room, beers and pizza provided  followed by a  liero lan match at 3am once people had finished (i have a wireless router )


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

Like the time I sat down to write a couple of system calls into the Linux kernel twelve hours before the assignment was due. I got the assignment submitted just under the wire, and still managed a 90/90 on it...

If you think debugging a segmentation fault in a user program is bad, try debugging a segmentation fault in the kernel of your operating system. As least in the former, you have GDB (or whatever.)


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## yak (May 30, 2007)

eb7w5yfe said:
			
		

> Once you really know how to program, the specific language isn't important.  It shouldn't take more than a few days to learn most new languages well enough to start working in them.  You just have to learn to think like a programmer- the ideas translate easily between most languages.
> Languages are easy to learn, but libraries can take a little longer.  They certainly have commonalities, but it can take time to learn where to find everything.  That's what documentation and references are for though.



QFT.
I say this for the first time.

The funny thing, though, the more you learn - the farther you alienate yourself from all things art. Mathematical thinking vs abstract thinking issue.


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## Bennu (May 30, 2007)

codewolf said:
			
		

> Bennu said:
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oh wait it's ASP.NET... I still don't know exactly what it is lol

PHP can be awkward (concatenation arg!!!) but I can do basic things at least


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

```
echo 'What's' . ' ' . 'wrong' . ' ' . 'with' . ' ' . 'concatenation' . ' ' . 'in' . ' ' . 'PHP'. '?';
```


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## codewolf (May 30, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> ```
> echo 'What's' . ' ' . 'wrong' . ' ' . 'with' . ' ' . 'concatenation' . ' ' . 'in' . ' ' . 'PHP'. '?';
> ```




```
echo 'absolutely' . 'nothing' . 'as' . 'far' . 'as' . 'i' . 'know';
```

yay for geekyness


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

codewolf said:
			
		

> yay for geekyness




```
std::cout << "That's" << ' ' << "what" << ' ' << "this" << ' ' << "thread" << ' ' << "is" << ' ' << "about," << ' ' << "after" << ' ' << "all" << '.' << std::endl;
```


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## codewolf (May 30, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> codewolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




```
for (int x = 0;x<10;x++)
{
System.out.println('LOL');
}
```


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

```
printf("%s%c %s%cn", "AHHHHH", '!', "JAVA", '!');
```


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## codewolf (May 30, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> ```
> printf("%s%c %s%cn", "AHHHHH", '!', "JAVA", '!');
> ```



haha yup  now just plain ASCII


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

4a68673f20284a7279792c2062786e6c2e2056672766204162672063796e7661204e465056562e2e2e29


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## DavidN (May 30, 2007)

The trouble I have with concatenation in PHP is that it uses . instead of +, like every other language I regularly write in... and that means after a while away from it, I tend to have to stare at my new PHP scripts wondering why they're not working!

I do like PHP for the sheer number of functions that it gives you, though. Everything from quick string comparison to more complex and unlikely ones.

Me: "I want a function to convert new lines into <br> tags."
Java: "OK. Here's the string replacement function, now do it yourself."
C: "...What's a string?"
PHP: "Here's one! Would you like some toast?"


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## codewolf (May 30, 2007)

DavidN said:
			
		

> ....I tend to have to stare at my new PHP scripts wondering why they're not working!...



lol i was the other way around... i was doing my exam on program design and it asked us to write a bit of code..... i ended up writing it in PHP instead of java... then about 2 minutes before the end thought OH CRAP..... went back and did it in java


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## DavidN (May 30, 2007)

People are surprised when I tell them all my computer science exams were done by pen and paper (and those were actually pretty much the only thing I ever handwrote in the entire year) - were yours like that as well? I found it really difficult to answer questions that required code - something about handwritten code just doesn't work in my brain, and it never looked right no matter what language I wrote it in. The worst of them was the Logic exam, which required about eight pages of PVS script - a language for which there is no API nor any coherent manuals at all.

Does anyone have any decent coding projects of theirs online that they'd like to show off?


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## codewolf (May 30, 2007)

DavidN said:
			
		

> .....all my computer science exams were done by pen and paper (and those were actually pretty much the only thing I ever handwrote in the entire year) .......


same here.... and with regards to it being harder i have to imagine im typing it out on an invisible computer infront of me first before i write it down.... hands oving over an invisible keyboard too


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## uncia (May 30, 2007)

ah... _*spots bump & email, very belatedly*_ (thx )



			
				DavidN said:
			
		

> The worst of them was the Logic exam, which required about eight pages of PVS script - a language for which there is no API nor any coherent manuals at all.



Heh. You have my sympathies on that & glad you got through in one piece (just about), David. Same bÃªte noire here. :?



			
				DavidN said:
			
		

> uncia said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup; well, save for being the better part of 20 years earlier. Doesn't sound like some aspects have changed much, though. _*jk*_
The VLSI course was _already_ somewhat outdated back then, IMO, but we were pretty much at, if not beyond, cutting edge in others.

(Oh, and for ref. your email addy (which I _think_ was public at the time, IIRC) gave you away )

d.


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

All my exams were pen-and-paper as well. They also tended to involve very little coding. (If they required code, pseudo-code was almost always acceptable. The only class where it wasn't was the class where the point was to learn C++.)


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## hawse (May 30, 2007)

I program for a living as an embedded software engineer. I use c and assembler. Pointers to arrays of functions that take pointers are my friend. 

I've been doing this for 20 years and have a bscs, though wish I had gotten a bsce like what you are working on.  It's been fun so far and I don't think I'd change what I do for anything. 

I've used c++ but find, at the level of software that I focus on, that it is overrated and overburdened with the constructors and destructors.  I've also programmed quite a bit in forth, but mostly, c with only enough assembler to hook in interrupts and get start up code till I can 'jmp _main'.

Hawse


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

I've found that if a program I'm writing is using complex and/or abstract data structures, C++ beats the living snot out of C.

But, for system-level code, C++ introduces a lot of unnecessary cruft that C doesn't have. (Especially in terms of interacting with assembler code.)


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## hawse (May 30, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> I've found that if a program I'm writing is using complex and/or abstract data structures, C++ beats the living snot out of C.
> 
> But, for system-level code, C++ introduces a lot of unnecessary cruft that C doesn't have. (Especially in terms of interacting with assembler code.)



WHich is basically what I work on.  I write the stuff that lets the app writers load up their code onto the system and run it. So I'm usually the first and second stage bootloader, after that, eh.. think of it this way, to me, linux is an application.  

Though I'm about to get involved in linux device drivers and kernel hacking, which I'm looking forward to, though still, it's mostly C and assembler.

Hawse


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## net-cat (May 31, 2007)

Never did any boot-loader hacking, but yeah, I understand.

As to Linux hacking, you'll either love it, or you'll want to toss your computer out the nearest window.


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## hawse (May 31, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Never did any boot-loader hacking, but yeah, I understand.
> 
> As to Linux hacking, you'll either love it, or you'll want to toss your computer out the nearest window.



*LAUGHS*  Eh, I'm one of the weird ones that find seg faults interesting to debug.. and if you can get through initializing sdram and loading microcode into a pentium Iv, you can survive kernel segfaults and ENJOY them.   Hell, I'll even have a debugger to use instead of a logic analyzer and blinking an LED to let me know where I am.  LUXURY I tell you! LUXURY!

Seriously though!  I'm looking forward to it, since touching hardware is easy, the rest is learning the API to the kernel and the kernel calls and the locking mechanisms blah blah blah.. It won't really be new, but it will be another venue for work.  What I'd LIKE to do is learn c++ and play around more with that, but I just don[t have the time to.. or better yet, switch venues to web programming since there are a LOT more jobs doing that than there are embedded jobs.  As it stand, I'll be 300 miles from home all week working and only home on the weekends for a year or so... eh.. some day I'll figure out how to change tracks.

Hawse 'I are stuck in a rut!'


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## HaTcH (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm the most fluent with PHP+mySQL as of now, flexing those skills on my art gallery program @ http://www.ligersunion.com/fandom/

I'm also pretty good with Python + pyGTK, which is a good place to start for an entry level programmer. I wrote a OO-draw program in python, which is pretty rudimentary, but still was worth while. --> http://www.rhysman.com/rhys/draw3.zip If you want to play with that, you can do it in Linux easily, in Windows, you'll need python and the pyGTK windows package. 

My first language was VB6, followed quickly by JAVA.. "public static void main(String[] args)" ring any bells? How bout this one.. remember back before JAVA5? BufferedReader br = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(System.in)); All of course, encapsulated in a try catch block...
Made me love Scanner when they came out with it 

Lets see, Currently I'm working in C#.NET developing a computer vision program with DirectShow. (Which is a pain, since DirectX/DirectShow was intended for C/C++ code and the wrappers for it only really exist in VB.NET. I found a library that some people made which is doing the trick...

I'd love to learn a bit of PERL and Lisp, considering LISP would have been the language some god would have used to create the universe with. PERL of course, to understand said universe 

Of course I know the ins and outs of rudimentary C code, C++ of course follows. I've got a neat tetris program which I made as my final project for a class, http://rhysman.com/tetris/ Good luck trying to get that to run on Windows . The binary is a Linux one, you'll need openGL to use it.

I enjoy programming, and thats what I'm going to school for currently.


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## DavidN (Jun 8, 2007)

Java 5 came out between my second and third years of university, which made it a bit difficult when virtually everything I knew about Threads was suddenly deprecated. I do appreciate the generics, though I can't help but feel that they managed to replace the ugly casting syntax with something even more appalling-looking.

I tend to consider this, from my final year project, as the most horrendous line I've ever written, but it doesn't match anything that I see C++ coders regularly come up with.


```
((Pile)state.piles.get(Integer.parseInt(carddata.getNamedItem("pile").getNodeValue()))).addCard(new Card(Integer.parseInt(carddata.getNamedItem("suit").getNodeValue()), Integer.parseInt(carddata.getNamedItem("value").getNodeValue())));
```


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## HaTcH (Jun 8, 2007)

@ Hawse: Lol, the worst thing with SEG FAULT is if you modify your code a bit, perhaps, add in a printf to tell you what stage in a loop you're in or something, they sometimes *magically* go away. XD

Had that problem A LOT when working with nasm in the beginning. Once I finally understood how the machine was actually executing the code, it became a bit simpler. 

I'm like.. "Teacher, I'm getting a seg fault, and I can't figure out why..." "Ok, push this, push that, and do a printf.. oh and add 2 to the stack pointer. (or something)"  "hey wait.. it works now..."

"Aha! You've destroyed your stack pointer!" "Wait.. did I save it in ESP or EAX? AHHH ASSEMBLY! Or did it get pushed when I entered?"

@ DavidN: That JAVA code looks horrendous  The one good thing is, alt least you don't have to deal with variables and methods called like ppbxlpstr... or like malloc. At least in JAVA they didn't take any prisoners avoiding abbreviation and automated GC is nice.


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## kamunt (Jun 9, 2007)

I actually have a question about some JavaScript code of mine that's been giving me trouble. It was working perfectly until I moved the images into a different folder...now it's borked. 3X


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## HaTcH (Jun 10, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> I actually have a question about some JavaScript code of mine that's been giving me trouble. It was working perfectly until I moved the images into a different folder...now it's borked. 3X



Well, when working with websites, there are two methods to specify paths to files; 'Absolute' and 'Relative.' An absolute path is something that specifies an entire path (location) to access your file. Whether it's something like http://www.someplace.com/documents/images/file.jpg, C:webspacemy imagesimage.gif, or /home/webuser/htdocs/gfx.php, these paths (which all refer to one place, and one place only on your machine/webhost/internets (hence absolute).

Relative paths are a different animal. They are used to refer to locations of files and documents when you don't know exactly where you're at in the folder hierarchy of the specific file system. Lets say you had a few files in a folder called 'hello' on your hard drive. In that folder there is a folder called 'files', and a file called 'viewimages.html'. (draw this out on paper if you have a hard time following). If you're at all a decent web designer, you're already using relative paths when you try to refer to an image in a deeper folder. To illustrate this (and also the reverse) I wrote a simple example series of html stuff. --> 
http://www.rhysman.com/ookami/testfolder/  

Before you click on the test.html file, take note of how the images in the parent and sub folders are arranged. 

Now click on the test.html file. Pay attention to the URL in your address bar as you view the different pages and their sources.


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## Tachyon (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm in science now, but I also have a degree in IT majoring in CompSci.
Languages I've tried: Amos (back in the day), C-- (also back when, Google can't find it but I swear it existed), Basic, Prolog
Languages I still know a bit about: Fortran, Python
Languages I'm confident to do something tricky in: C, C++, Java, Matlab, LabView, Haskell

I really like Haskell, it's a very mathematical language, but getting it to do IO... Shudder. Go learn how to do IO in Haskell. That'll put hairs on your chest.

LabView is interesting in that it's a graphical programming language. You put down wires that carry data between processing blocks. Everything parallelises by default, too. I've warmed to it since I started using it earlier this year, but it *really* needs to be able to zoom in/out.

I've probably forgotten some languages. I'm not counting the markup languages, either. They're not real programming languages.


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## kamunt (Jun 17, 2007)

Now HaTcH, you'd think that this JavaScript code of mine would then work in the same way, right? Nah. Doing all those things just doesn't work. 'Cause, see, I have a folder called "Code", let's say. And in this folder I have 2 more, "JavaScript" and "Images". In the folder JavaScript I have my code, and I'm trying to display/screw around with some images from the folder "Images"...but it doesn't work, and nothing makes sense to me about it.  I have the images linked as "..Imagespicture0.png" and "[...]1.png", respectively. The first pic, picture0, will display on page load...but then when I mouse-over, pic 0 is supposed to become pic 1...instead, it just blows up. It stays blowed-up when I mouse-out. >.< Lame. And I don't get what could possibly be going wrong with it....stupid thing.


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## codewolf (Jun 17, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> have a folder called "Code", let's say.



yay  i'm a folder


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## HaTcH (Jun 17, 2007)

kamunt said:
			
		

> I have the images linked as "..Imagespicture0.png" and "[...]1.png", respectively.




... XD I just figured out your problem dude!  You're trying to access your directory structure using the wrong slashes. Backslash is a special character used for making things like tabs, and spaces and whatever.. n t   are all one character to most programming languages.. So the reason your files weren't working is cuz your string has got a I and a p character, whatever the hell that might be. Sooo... Your slashyness is not the right slashyness  Make em forward and try it again 

@Tachyon: Eeewww fortran.. XD 

Oh Matlab? I've dabbled in that... Very similar to VB6. You'd probably pick that language up pretty quick if you're good with matlab.


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## hawse (Jun 17, 2007)

HaTcH said:
			
		

> @ Hawse: Lol, the worst thing with SEG FAULT is if you modify your code a bit, perhaps, add in a printf to tell you what stage in a loop you're in or something, they sometimes *magically* go away. XD
> 
> Had that problem A LOT when working with nasm in the beginning. Once I finally understood how the machine was actually executing the code, it became a bit simpler.
> 
> ...




Oh yeah, that is so very true.  TIming is everything, and dropping a printf (or whatever the kernel equivalent is) can sometimes make things work just right.. or.. right enough.  

ANd yeah, that java code looked nasty, but if you want write once code, look at APL.  ONly language I ever worked with where the programmers took *GLEE* in handing you a few lines of code and saying "Bet you can't figure out what THIS does!"

wheeee.

Hawse


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## kamunt (Jun 19, 2007)

HaTcH said:
			
		

> kamunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...It would be nice if it were that easy, weren't it? That's already been tried, to no avail. :evil: And anyways, my pics aren't ACTUALLY called that, LOL. So that rules out that, as well....


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## Janglur (Jun 19, 2007)

Learn VB, ASM, and PAscal.

If you can fully grasp all three and make them do exactly what you want, when you want, I think you'll have officially mastered computers in general.


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## HaTcH (Jun 19, 2007)

@Kamunt: Well then, would you mind showing me your source or something? Like zip up the directory structure and let me have a look at whats going on. That or a description of the file structure and the source code to a page that was generated by your script.

I know for a fact that you can't use back slashes in paths anyway.. And for languages that you do, to specify paths, you usually have to escape the back slashes by.. you guessed it... putting another back slash. So for most Windows stuff, it's typically like C:\folder\file.ext. But if you're designing things which run over the net, you must use forward slashes. I've seen that Internet Explorer will load pages with paths specified with back slashes... and then a real browser, like Mozilla won't. So keep that in mind.


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## ZenTyger (Aug 12, 2007)

eb7w5yfe said:
			
		

> kamunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, to a point.

There remains a big difference between coding in a language and _coding into a language_.  Given an hour with a language spec (flow control + libraries) I can code into most any language.  The result is functional, but I still wouldn't say "I'm a Java programmer," for instance.

It's funny, these days I can pretty much tell you a person's true language background just by reviewing a decent section of code.  And sometimes,  I will open a file in vi and practically hear a choir of angels sing.  A Level 4 or Level 5 SE, coding in their best language.... reading stuff like this gives you an appreciation of the heart and soul of a language, and what it means to capture it in code.


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## Magnus (Aug 12, 2007)

ok... so i'm like a total n00b to this. 

What would you guys recommend me to learn? and what programs would i need?


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## DavidN (Aug 12, 2007)

Well, it really depends on what you want to do, in the end. I would say that Java is decent as a beginner's modern language, as it's what I learned in (although I had a bit of experimental programming experience beforehand) - to use that, you need to download the Java SDK with the compiler that translates your code into a form that the computer can understand.

It may also help to download a programming environment such as Eclipse (I think most versions of Eclipse actually come with a compiler), but opinion is divided as to whether they help beginners - they let you get going without worrying about what's happening underneath from the start, which can come back and bite you if anything ever goes wrong with that aspect of it.


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## Magnus (Aug 12, 2007)

Well lets say i want to make games, like Final Fantasy or something, i would need to know programming right? for making an engine?

i also have Visual Basic, but i got told its more for windows applications.


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## HaTcH (Aug 12, 2007)

If you'd prefer to really learn a language, you could try something bare-bones that just gives you syntax highlighting. Emacs is one such editor. If you use Linux and have gnome, you can use Gedit, if you use KDE, kate does syntax highlighting. And of course, you can use emacs in linux too. Emacs without a window can be a real bitch, it has alot of hot-keys and key combinations. The windows version is windowed only, as far as I know.

Java is an excellent language to get started in. I can give you source code for a lot of simple programs (from when I was learning) and you can make your own from their examples. Gives you info about things like if...else structures, for loops, while loops, methods/classes/functions, using java API. Hmm... Seems theres a Java 6 out now... If you learn Java, you'll have a better time learning more usefull languages like C, C++, or C#.. even PHP to an extent. (PHP is another alternative for a first language, as it's 'Instant Gratification.' I wrote a couple PHP tutorials somewhere.. I'll post em up if you're interested.

If you would like to go the way of a development environment (which IMO for a new programmer would be overwhelming), SUN developed one just for Java, called NetBeans. I used it for a short while. It helps if you want to do GUI stuff.


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## Magnus (Aug 12, 2007)

I'd be happy to learn, though i'm already confused XD

i really have to start with the basics of the basics :3


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## DavidN (Aug 12, 2007)

If you're looking to go into game creation in particular, it would probably help to go for an environment designed for the purpose that allows you to actually make something without worrying about lower-level things like graphic display, writing your own collision detection, and so on.

There are a few around the Internet at the moment, but my favourite one is Multimedia Fusion 2 - many people "graduate" from it to C++, as that's what its objects are written in (though most users of it never have to touch the C++ code itself).

This isn't "coding" as such, but it teaches you many of the same concepts, and I still use it for game-making even though I'm meant to have a computer science degree =)


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## Rostam The Grey (Aug 12, 2007)

At work I program in:

Web - ColdFusion, C#, ASP, Javascript (Heavily w/AJAX), HTML (Like you couldn't...), CSS (Heavily, I've instituted a rule in my group that no one can use style="" or any attribute that can be set with stylesheets everything has to be class driven, makes changes much much easier)

PC - C#, C++, VB (also VBA)

Mainframe - JCL, COBOL, REXX, Assembler, Easytreive

Databases - SQL Server, DB2

I have experience in other languages but these are the ones I use heavily.


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## HaTcH (Aug 12, 2007)

http://www.rhysman.com/phplesson.html
http://www.rhysman.com/phplesson2.html

I regret that I wrote these originally for a webmaster, who had a little bit of coding experience under their belt, but the examples work. 

It requires that you have some place you can run PHP programs from. That is, upload your scripts to a web server and test em, or you can download PHP to your computer and run it through a command line. (Which sucks) The best approach (and its how I do it, but good luck figuring out how to configure it) is to install an HTTP server (Apache2 in my case) and then install the PHP module to apache. Then you browse your home computer via http://localhost/foo.php and it runs your PHP code just like an internet server would. 

Sorry if I go too fast, I've got a bit of caffeine in me.


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## codewolf (Aug 12, 2007)

HaTcH said:
			
		

> Then you browse your home computer via http://localhost/foo.php and it runs your PHP code just like an internet server would.



well said my good sir  thats exactly how i test my websites i do in php


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## uncia (Aug 12, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> <interesting stuff></interesting stuff>Mainframe - JCL, COBOL, REXX, Assembler, Easytreive


*chuckles*. Someone still has to, I guess.
Managed to dodge that subset happily for 12-13 years until I hit RL industry - too early, alas. 

Enjoy. ^^


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## HaTcH (Aug 12, 2007)

codewolf said:
			
		

> HaTcH said:
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> 
> 
> ...



Excellent! Glad to see I'm not the only crazy person here.


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## Rostam The Grey (Aug 13, 2007)

uncia said:
			
		

> Rostam The Grey said:
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> 
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> ...



LOL, ya, sometimes I wish the supposedly 'dying' languages would go ahead and die...


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