# America's Nation-wide 'Shutdown'



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 6, 2019)

Enough, is enough, 'Murican Politicians.
Fire each and every single one of these inept bastards.

Name me ONE business, where the 'Employees' can NOT DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS, yet retain them?
Where said employees give THEMSELVES pay-raises, for doing:  what exactly?

I don't give a flying fuck about Parties, the 3 Branches, et al with vomit gagging the back of my throat.

They're not doing the job(s) they were elected for.

They do not deserve to keep their jobs.

I'm so sick and tired of this political merry-go-round...

There.  Rant over.  Back to the usual shenanigans...


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## Pipistrele (Jan 6, 2019)

Weird flex but... actually not that weird for a furry forum. But ok anyway


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

What is it with furries and fascism? What the hell is the actual connection here? I'm starting to think there may be something inherently crazy about being a friend to the animals!

^actual rant


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Name me landing ONE business, where the 'Employees' can NOT DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS, yet retain them?


Every business (at least in the USA) can legally furlough its employees. I've been furloughed when a company I was working at failed to land a contract. Rather than lay us all off the company furloughed us and shut its doors in the hope of landing another contract soon. It sucked but it was legal.



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Where said employees give THEMSELVES pay-raises, for doing:  what exactly?


Congress is much closer to a board of directors than regular employees. And yes, a board of directors can vote themselves pay raises whenever they like.



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> They're not doing the job(s) they were elected for.
> 
> They do not deserve to keep their jobs.



I agree with you there. Playing political hard ball is one thing but shutting down the government (even just part of it) is a scummy way to get one's way. Congress and the President have compromised in previous years, even if they were from different parties. It's time they learn to compromise again and stop this "my way or the highway" nonsense. There are plenty of ways to get better border security. If a wall's a no-go, find a solution that will work better rather than insist on a wall or nothing.


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## Simo (Jan 6, 2019)

Huh, on a lighter note, there were even Wall Cosplayers!

Florida, 2016, at a Trump campaign rally:







And yet we're paying, here, as well over a million go with no pay...


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## Infrarednexus (Jan 6, 2019)

Simo said:


> Huh, on a lighter note, there were even Wall Cosplayers!
> 
> Florida, 2016, at a Trump campaign rally:
> 
> ...


It's okay. Mexico has a secret weapon!


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## CertifiedCervine (Jan 6, 2019)

Cannabiskitty said:


> What is it with furries and fascism? What the hell is the actual connection here? I'm starting to think there may be something inherently crazy about being a friend to the animals!
> 
> ^actual rant


This forum just likes to bicker about politics :/


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> This forum just likes to bicker about politics :/



I'm not even going to touch that with a 20 foot pole.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

Simo said:


> Huh, on a lighter note, there were even Wall Cosplayers!
> 
> Florida, 2016, at a Trump campaign rally:
> 
> ...



Roger Waters would not be amused. Or maybe he would be?


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Jan 6, 2019)




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## Simo (Jan 6, 2019)

And don't forget these fun toys!






Oh, this set as well!:


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## Attaman (Jan 6, 2019)

Since people are adamant on going "Both sides" here, I'd like to remind them of a few things for a moment:

1) During the _first_ 2018 Government Shutdown (since there were several that year), whereupon Republicans had the majority in both the House and Senate _and_ the Presidency, _*and*_ caused the Shutdown in the first place by using the previous year's budget reconciliation to ramrod through an unpopular tax bill, the Democrats... did offer the Wall. As in, offered _*twenty five billion *_*dollars*, explicitly for the sake of a border wall, with Congressional Republicans showing signs of approval and acceptance of the deal... in return for further protections of (amongst other things) people at-the-time under the protection of DACA (or "Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals", for those who don't want to google such things). Trump _*outright refused to sign any such bill*_ (which, again, would have outright funded the wall)... because both renewal of DACA and protection of those previously covered by it were both considered deal-breakers by him. 

2) Early in the current shutdown, both wings of the Senate (notably, including Mitch McConnell) endorsed a bill (that would temporarily authorize funding for several of the currently sans-funding departments and their workers) so as to mitigate the damage of this shutdown until the whole "Will we or won't we fund the wall" thing was resolved. In fact, one of the most recent bills that Pelosi pushed through the house is _*this specific piece*_, which - again - had _*bipartisan support and endorsement*_ including _*Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. *_McConnell has _*refused to allow any call to vote on this bill*_ because _*Trump*_ has stated that he will not approve of or sign _*any*_ bills involving budgetary matters that do not include funding for his wall. Even those providing money to - again - the 800,000-ish federal workers (and various federal agencies) who are either furloughed or sans-pay (working but not getting paychecks) in the interim.

To try and portray this as a matter of "Both sides" is so _hilariously_ disingenuous it careens back from "hilarious" to "Did I say hilarious? I meant befuddling and horrifying". 

Once again: The wall was offered to be paid just _one year prior_, _*in full*_, in return for (not even permanently! Just temporarily) renewed protections for _*children*_ that (the protections / laws, that is) nigh-universally had been found to _*aid the US economy as a whole, at worst no negative impact on crime and at best a positive one on its deterrence, aided the mental help of both DACA recipient children and their families, and did nothing to stimulate or exacerbate the rate of childhood arrivals *_(see: A program that could genuinely be said to have only good results, provided one considered "Children in good physical and mental health attaining an education and eventually becoming productive members of society" as good). Trump _*refused to sign any such budget - again, offering $25,000,000,000 in funding towards the wall - specifically over DACA*_, and Republicans refrained from pushing it (again, holding a clear majority in both chambers and thus needing only a relative _handful_ of defectors to reach a veto-proof bipartisan majority). And this was, as it's also worth bearing in mind to repeat once more, a _*complete government shutdown*_ wherein *the damage for not reaching a compromise was even more potentially catastrophic.
*
Now, eleven months later, the wall that was considered insufficient compromise for the protection of _less than a million persons _(near as I can tell, the highest numbers for its peak include about 750,000)_ - predominantly children - via an immigration policy that was agreed by most to boon for its recipients and United States_, is now considered so _*desperately vital *_that 800,000 _*federal workers, composed of "legal" citizens*_, are considered acceptable collateral for one _fifth_ that level of funding, and the Senate Majority Leader is at least affable enough to that idea that they _*refuse to call to vote any budgetary proposals - even quite literally those they had previously endorsed mere weeks prior - *_that do not include aforementioned funding.

To try and pin this as "at least equally the Dems' fault" is so woefully counterfactual and disingenuous that the only good excuse to argue as much is quite literal ignorance, and considering how a number of people in here who're pushing that narrative were *explicitly told *in previous threads...


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

Sure blame Trump for failing to compromise so far but the blame game is useless. The fact is that neither Trump nor Pelosi seem to be inclined to compromise, but we shouldn't just give up and kick the can down the road. Now is the right time to find compromise. No one can legally ram something down the other's throat (despite Trump's insistence to the contrary) so now is the time to find a compromise that's a better solution than what's been offered so far. 

That's how we used to do things in the past. Reagan got plenty of landmark legislation passed by compromising with Democrats in Congress. Clinton got plenty of landmark legislation done by compromising with Republicans in Congress. It's time Trump and Pelosi put on the adult pants and do likewise for the good of the nation.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> No one can legally ram something down the other's throat



Actually you can, it's called passing legislation. I guess that's what you might call "putting on your big boy pants"


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## Attaman (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Sure blame Trump for failing to compromise so far but the blame game is useless. The fact is that neither Trump nor Pelosi





Attaman said:


> To try and pin this as "at least equally the Dems' fault" is so woefully counterfactual and disingenuous that the only good excuse to argue as much is quite literal ignorance, and considering how a number of people in here who're pushing that narrative were *explicitly told *in previous threads...


Again: Trump was _quite literally offered approximately five times his current asking price, during a _*complete*_ shutdown that the Republican Party *created for itself*, in return for not purposefully harming children and preventing an even bigger _*midterm political clusterfuck*_, and he refused. Pelosi has been push forward temporary funding bills *previously endorsed by McConnell and Schumer both*, and the former (McConnell) now refuses to even let it come to a call to vote._



Telnac said:


> but we shouldn't just give up and kick the can down the road.


 Protip: If your belief is that not funding the wall now is "giving up and kicking the can down the road", as in _*it's a matter of when and Democrats are just dragging their feet*_, that's not treating the "blame game is (as) useless". It's _*explicitly blaming Democrats*_ and not only absolving Trump of guilt but _*putting him in the right*_.



Telnac said:


> Now is the right time to find compromise.


 Yes, that compromise is "Pass a temporary funding bill so that the better part of a million Federal employees do not go without pay and the national parks quite literally don't overflow with shit". That your idea of "compromise" is "Must include the wall" _explicitly assigns blame and does not involve any actual compromise on one party's part_.



Telnac said:


> No one can legally ram something down the other's throat (despite Trump's insistence to the contrary)


 Actually, they _*can*_ and that's why we had the Jan 2018 fiasco in the first place: Congress is afforded a yearly reconciliation that is _*intended*_ to be used for passing budgets by significantly reducing the number of names that need to give an aye / affirmative to pass the Bill / measure being voted upon. Once again: They used it not for the budget, but to force through the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. And this doesn't even get into either the more obvious Veto Override powers, nor the the more horrifying State of Emergency carte blanche.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Sure blame Trump for failing to compromise so far but the blame game is useless. The fact is that neither Trump nor Pelosi seem to be inclined to compromise, but we shouldn't just give up and kick the can down the road. Now is the right time to find compromise. No one can legally ram something down the other's throat (despite Trump's insistence to the contrary) so now is the time to find a compromise that's a better solution than what's been offered so far.
> 
> That's how we used to do things in the past. Reagan got plenty of landmark legislation passed by compromising with Democrats in Congress. Clinton got plenty of landmark legislation done by compromising with Republicans in Congress. It's time Trump and Pelosi put on the adult pants and do likewise for the good of the nation.


Trump has been offered multiple compromises now, with support of both parties. He has refused them. He is the only one who hasn't come to the negotiating table. Even his VP tried to negotiate a compromise on the current shutdown out from under him. 

You can't save face here, because even the Republicans are trying to meet the dems at a middle ground, while Trump has litteraly tried to up the ante. He's an obstructionist, and one who's actions have caused multiple deaths. They will result in the shutdown of some food aid programs if this carries on, leading to either starvation, or more likely crime. And it will lead to the withholding of Tax refunds. 

If Trump doesn't stop fuckblocking actual compromise, It's gonna get yellowvesty up in this bitch; because money and aid people depend upon to get by is going to be on lock because of the orange shitgibbon's refusal to compromise with even the center right.


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Actually you can, it's called passing legislation. I guess that's what you might call "putting on your big boy pants"


Uh... no.

Democrats don't have the votes to ram legislation through the Senate. They sure as hell don't have the votes to override Trump's veto.

Republicans don't have the votes to ram through legislation in the House.

Therefore no one's going to pass legislation without compromising with the other party. Anyone who's passed 6th grade social studies should know this.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Uh... no.
> 
> Democrats don't have the votes to ram legislation through the Senate. They sure as hell don't have the votes to override Trump's veto.
> 
> ...



Or maybe just storm the oval office with armed guards? I'd be for that.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Whatever, I'm just here for the memes.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

If we could actually go all jedi on a president though, it would actually be badass.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Apparently, they could take him out with Amendment 25- is a President is unfit for office, you get him out.
The President's job is to keep the government running so... Bragging about keeping the government shut down for months or years to get his way is grounds for being unfit for office. You can't play the game, you can't have the job. Shutting things down is not playing the game. It's a failure.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

PercyD said:


> Apparently, they could take him out with Amendment 25- is a President is unfit for office, you get him out.
> The President's job is to keep the government running so... Bragging about keeping the government shut down for months or years to get his way is grounds for being unfit for office. You can't play the game, you can't have the job. *Shutting things down is not playing the game. It's a failure*.



Heck's yeah it is.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 6, 2019)

PercyD said:


> Apparently, they could take him out with Amendment 25- is a President is unfit for office, you get him out.
> The President's job is to keep the government running so... Bragging about keeping the government shut down for months or years to get his way is grounds for being unfit for office. You can't play the game, you can't have the job. Shutting things down is not playing the game. It's a failure.


They would need the same supermajority required to ram through a bill anyways.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> They would need the same supermajority required to ram through a bill anyways.


It has nothing to do with a bill. It's a constitutional amendment. If a president is unfit for office, the vice president and his cabinet can have him removed.
The vice president will become an acting president. However, the cabinet is thread barren and full of toadys who I don't think have the character to stand up against Trump.
Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

At least I don't have people on this forum telling me "shame on me" because I'm critical of 45 any more. Though, I haven't seen those sorts of people on the forums in awhile, one. Two, I think they were just trolling. *Squint.*


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

Again: I'm willing to accept Trump is being an obstructionist. I'm willing to accept that he's tossed prior compromise attempts by the wayside. Fine. Blame him for all this if you want. That doesn't change the situation at all.

Trump has veto power. Neither side has a veto- proof majority. No legislation to reopen the government will survive his veto even if it somehow passes in the Senate. You can't go around that fact by pointing blame at Trump. It is what it is.

Pelosi has control of the House. Trump's not going to get enough Dems to flip to his side to get funding for the wall. Trump can't get around that fact by blaming Pelosi. Declaring an emergency to build the wall will not survive a legal challenge. It is what it is.

Trump has no reason to open the government without some sort of funding for additional border security. I'm actually not an advocate of the wall! I've repeatedly said I think the best solution is some sort of electronic frontier to aid in detecting and apprehending smugglers and human traffickers. But whatever form of compromise it is, the solution to this impasse is compromise.

So long as Trump and Pelosi are screaming past each other and not talking to each other this will not end.


Cannabiskitty said:


> Or maybe just storm the oval office with armed guards? I'd be for that.


O...k... so you're willing to go the military coup route. Good luck with that.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 6, 2019)

PercyD said:


> It has nothing to do with a bill. It's a constitutional amendment. If a president is unfit for office, the vice president and his cabinet can have him removed.
> The vice president will become an acting president. However, the cabinet is thread barren and full of toadys who I don't think have the character to stand up against Trump.
> Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia





> Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.



So all Trump has to do is say no such inability exists, and he gets his powers back unless congress can get a supermajority to declare otherwise.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> O...k... so you're willing to go the military coup route. Good luck with that.



Thanks bro! *cocks*


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

PercyD said:


> Apparently, they could take him out with Amendment 25- is a President is unfit for office, you get him out.
> The President's job is to keep the government running so... Bragging about keeping the government shut down for months or years to get his way is grounds for being unfit for office. You can't play the game, you can't have the job. Shutting things down is not playing the game. It's a failure.


This has been a leftist fantasy from Day 1. Trump's medically fit for office and if he's not it's his own cabinet that would have to vote to remove him. Short of Trump having a genuine medical emergency this isn't going to happen.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> So all Trump has to do is say no such inability exists, and he gets his powers back unless congress can get a supermajority to declare otherwise.


I stand corrected then~. But I guess thats good so we don't get full on coup de ta happening every few decades. 
This whole situation is really putting the system to the test.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Again: I'm willing to accept Trump is being an obstructionist. I'm willing to accept that he's tossed prior compromise attempts by the wayside. Fine. Blame him for all this if you want. That doesn't change the situation at all.
> 
> Trump has veto power. Neither side has a veto- proof majority. No legislation to reopen the government will survive his veto even if it somehow passes in the Senate. You can't go around that fact by pointing blame at Trump. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


Trump isn't compromising with his own party. He's chosen to align himselves entirely against both Republican and Democrat representatives. Members of his own party are calling him a whiney brat. He is the only one not trying to reach a compromise. If the Executive can hold our government hostage unless he gets exactly what he wants, without actual compromise, that would be very, VERY bad. 

The fact he is trying to go against the will of our reps like this, in order to advance his own fanciful agenda, to the point of abusing state of emergency laws is not indicative of democracy. 

I'll give you one guess who else in history used declaration of a state of emergency over a tradgedy they fabricated to gain powers they oughtn't have had within the scope of a democratic government.


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> So all Trump has to do is say no such inability exists, and he gets his powers back unless congress can get a supermajority to declare otherwise.


Yes, which is why it'll never happen.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

I still say we go all flying guillotine on a president and call it progress.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> This has been a leftist fantasy from Day 1. Trump's medically fit for office and if he's not it's his own cabinet that would have to vote to remove him. Short of Trump having a genuine medical emergency this isn't going to happen.


No...?
The 'leftist fantasy' is doing away with the electoral college and going purely on popular vote. Get your facts straight.

I just said his cabinets are full of toadys. What everyone is talking about is an intellectual inability to fufil his duties. No one is talking about the fact he's literally only doing this to serve his base, not serve the American people. If 44 had even shown a hint of exclusively 'serving his base' (just black and brown people) there would have been calls for his head. 44 had to establish himself as the president of all people from day one. 45 has never attempted this.

In fact, if 45 says he wants to help you, theres a good chance he's actually trying to screw you over.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

Hey now I stand by my leftist fantasies.


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## Telnac (Jan 6, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Trump isn't compromising with his own party. He's chosen to align himselves entirely against both Republican and Democrat representatives. Members of his own party are calling him a whiney brat. He is the only one not trying to reach a compromise. If the Executive can hold our government hostage unless he gets exactly what he wants, without actual compromise, that would be very, VERY bad.
> 
> The fact he is trying to go against the will of our reps like this, in order to advance his own fanciful agenda, to the point of abusing state of emergency laws is not indicative of democracy.
> 
> I'll give you one guess who else in history used declaration of a state of emergency over a tradgedy they fabricated to gain powers they oughtn't have had within the scope of a democratic government.


The US system of government is designed to force compromise by not giving anyone the power to just override the other branches of government. It's high time Trump and Pelosi realize that.

Trump will get smacked down by the courts in a heartbeat if he declares an emergency, and rightfully so! Hitler had no such limitations. He just murdered anyone in opposition to him.


PercyD said:


> No...?
> The 'leftist fantasy' is doing away with the electoral college and going purely on popular vote. Get your facts straight.


I never said it was the only leftist fantasy.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

I still stand by my leftist fantasies.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> ...
> 
> I never said it was the only leftist fantasy.


Mhm.
Have any thing else to say about the rest of my post, though?


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Trump will get smacked down by the courts in a heartbeat if he declares an emergency, and rightfully so! *Hitler had no such limitations. He just murdered anyone in opposition to him.*
> I never said it was the only leftist fantasy.



I think you mean _Terror Billy._


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Cannabiskitty said:


> I still stand by my leftist fantasies.


I'm afraid to say, there comes a time to be more pragmatic and fight for things that are real and tangible. v3v
I know my fantasies won't pay my bills.


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

PercyD said:


> I'm afraid to say, there comes a time to be more pragmatic and fight for things that are real and tangible. v3v
> I know my fantasies won't pay my bills.



Have you considered that you may be lacking in imagination?


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Have you considered that you may be lacking in imagination?


How dare you! My internal world is healthy and colorful!
_I should show you sometime. _
_It's literally in my footer. Help my fantasys pay my bills. Commission me. Pls. _


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## Cannabiskitty (Jan 6, 2019)

PercyD said:


> How dare you! My internal world is healthy and colorful!
> _I sho_
> _It's literally in my footer. Help my fantasys pay my bills. Commission me. Pls. _



Maybe.

I'm on my phone so footers do not show up for me.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 6, 2019)

I don't want to be an accelerationist because that never ends well, but it might take yellow vest shit to get the government working again. That's the sad truth of things.

@Telnac  It's really hard to call the person dealing with an obstructionist equally at fault for not rolling over to unrealistic demands after multiple attempts of placation have proven utterly fruitless. Every politician has every right at this time to call trump an immature shitgibbony twatgrabbing shitbucket. That includes the left.

But god forbid anyone left of center so much as dance and use swear words in highschool right?

So long as you keep trying to pass your own shitbag off on to the left, you won't find friendly responses. Your false equivalence bullshit is asinine, unwelcome, and frankly insulting.


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## PercyD (Jan 6, 2019)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Maybe.


Lol, get into a non-argument? Plug in your commissions-
But seriously, though, I think the problem with "the left" is that sometimes they aren't practical.
Also, I think "the left" in Washington isn't really serving me but... I think thats a general issue with the system on both sides. This whole thing is happening because Rush Limpbiscuit and crew were giving Trump bad press.


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## Telnac (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> But god forbid anyone left of center so much as dance and use swear words in highschool right?
> 
> So long as you keep trying to pass your own shitbag off on to the left, you won't find friendly responses. Your false equivalence bullshit is asinine, unwelcome, and frankly insulting.


That didn't take long to descend to needless ad hominems and name calling.

Be insulted all you like. I don't care who's to blame. The fact remains that Pelosi and Trump each controls a central seat of government and neither can do anything without compromising with the other.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Jan 7, 2019)

Let's be real: the shutdown is more about political grandstanding (for both sides) than anything else... but, (at the end of the day) enough anger and impatience about the shutdown (coming from the populace, especially Federal workers) will force both sides of the government to work together, (I predict), in due course.

The impasse can only last for so long.

For President Trump - I believe the wall is something that he (and many of his supporters) truly believe in, and it is him merely attempting to fulfill a campaign promise, (that he ran on); and so - in his mind, he's thinking that he's just "doing his job" that the people voted him into office for.

I voted for President Trump, myself - and I'm not really sure (at this point) that the wall will ever be built.. now that the Democrats control the House.. and, (I've been a little ambivalent about this whole wall thing, to begin with) as perhaps there's much better approaches that we could be taking - (in regards to both time and money) that could still be affective in protecting our borders - albeit in a compassionate, and clement way (at the same time).

But - in spite of these concerns, (I'm still a little hopeful) that *something* in regards to better border security, and most importantly (immigration reform) can still be acomplished.. before he leaves office.

As the current system is badly broken, and clearly needs reform - (and I think both sides can certainly agree on that much, at least).


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## PercyD (Jan 7, 2019)

Telnac said:


> That didn't take long to descend to needless ad hominems and name calling.
> 
> Be insulted all you like. I don't care who's to blame. The fact remains that Pelosi and Trump each controls a central seat of government and neither can do anything without compromising with the other.


Maybe, but you seem to like to cherry pick sir.
I haven't called you not a name but you haven't even responded to my post beyond what you wanted to respond to. So there is that. 

This wall thing is stupid. Steel slats now? What is this wall going to accomplish but make people FEEL like something is being done. By the way, make people feel like something is being done in places that aren't even boarder states. Representatives and local governance in the boarder states are saying this is stupid. 

The people screaming about a wall. What does actual immigration reform look like? What danger is everyone precieving from people coming into the country?
And I'm sick of the "lets fix the problems here" mantra I've heard about this argument. None of the "problems" talked about aren't problems until someone wants to use them as political fodder. 
These are literally mothers and children running from violence in countries like Columbia. They aren't drug dealers or rapists or whatever else these fear mongerers are conjuring up. They're victims.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jan 7, 2019)

Quick, turn to metric system while the government is shut down.


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## PercyD (Jan 7, 2019)

Rimna said:


> Quick, turn to metric system while the government is shut down.


I'm not measuring my shit in stones! Absolutely not-
Also, the temperature should be based on what humans feel, not on when water freezes!!!


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## Deleted member 111470 (Jan 7, 2019)

PercyD said:


> I'm not measuring my shit in stones! Absolutely not-
> Also, the temperature should be based on what humans feel, not on when water freezes!!!



Metric for weight is grams, not stones.


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## PercyD (Jan 7, 2019)

Rimna said:


> Metric for weight is grams, not stones.


Maybe.
But Celcius is still bullshit.


----------



## Rusty_Raccoon (Jan 7, 2019)




----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 7, 2019)

PercyD said:


> Maybe.
> But Celcius is still bullshit.


Metric isn't a moronic system and is extremely easy to use. There's a reason 99% of the planet uses Metric and Celsius. 

Why that is I will let you figure out on your own.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Jan 7, 2019)

Telnac said:


> That didn't take long to descend to needless ad hominems and name calling.
> 
> Be insulted all you like. I don't care who's to blame. The fact remains that Pelosi and Trump each controls a central seat of government and neither can do anything without compromising with the other.


Technically, Trump controls the central seat in the government, namely the presidency which guides the executive branch. Pelosi controls, to a large degree, one half of the legislative branch, the House of Representatives which is a component of Congress. Republicans control the Senate by a slim majority. In more normal times, a Republican president and a Republican Senate would be in agreement and working hand in hand to push through an agreement. Actually, the Democratic House would logically be under pressure to kowtow to the Republican President and the Republican Senate because they _just _came into power in the House and can't be seen to be obstructionists. The Democrats would agree to most or all of the terms and the government would be funded.

Instead, since Trump is erratic and constantly hamstrings his own party, the Republicans have their hands tied even though they were making sincere good-faith efforts to reach, I daresay, a _compromise _with the Democrats to, at first, avert a shutdown and now to reopen the government. For the most part now, both Republican and Democratic career politicians in Congress are actually trying for and reaching compromise you like to tout, but Trump's insistence on a border wall, which has been proven time and time again here and in the public sphere to be an ineffective solution to illegal immigration, has repeatedly destroyed any hope of a resolution to this shutdown crisis. And this is a crisis since more than 800,000 federal government workers are now either furloughed or working without pay. According to Trump, he is willing to let this situation continue for years. Ignoring for a moment the vital responsibilities these workers have which kept our country afloat, that's 800,000 paychecks not going to their families or themselves and I'm sure these workers have expenses that around going to wait around to be paid. When the shutdown lasts a month, expenses like rent, mortgages, loans, credit card bills, and bills in general are going to come due. What will these workers do then?

Furthermore, let's not forget that Trump is pushing for a wall that, as @Attaman pointed out in the most detailed and analytical post on the thread, wasn't critical infrastructure less than a year ago and not worth granting a renewal and protections to the blameless and productive DACA recipients. It is also important to note that most Americans don't actually want this wall and would prefer that _Trump _compromise.

Link

To paraphrase the article, by a 21-point margin, 57 percent to 36 percent, Americans think the president should compromise on the border wall to avoid a government shutdown, rather than stand firm on it. About two-thirds of Republicans say the opposite, and the president has been focused on maintaining his base.

Right now, Trump is putting his own political fortunes ahead of the country. A clear majority of Americans do not want this even. The Democrats in the House are opposing wasting funding on an ineffective solution in exchange for workable border security solutions. The Republicans are working in earnest to meet them on a middle ground, but realize Trump has veto power. Even Mike Pence made an attempt a compromising, but Trump undermined him. Writ large, it isn't the Democrats or Republicans in Congress who are to blame for this.

It's the man in the White House who can't compromise.


----------



## AnnoyedAnon (Jan 7, 2019)

I've stayed away from going all the way to saying "impeach him" because it's very knee jerk. But if he ain't even gonna do his job shittily he needs to be out so we can have our government open again. Impeach his ass.


----------



## PercyD (Jan 7, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Metric isn't a moronic system and is extremely easy to use. There's a reason 99% of the planet uses Metric and Celsius.
> 
> Why that is I will let you figure out on your own.


Listen here.
I don't know what the fuck 30 degrees is.
I understand 80 or 90 degrees out. That makes sense. Thats freggin hot, lemme go grab my shorts and show off my arms and be cute.

I had to live with Celsius for a year. It makes no got' darn sense. 
I'll give you meters and kilometers- but Fahrenheit does a better job of communicating what it feels like outdoors. Hands down.


----------



## Cannabiskitty (Jan 7, 2019)

PercyD said:


> Listen here.
> I don't know what the fuck 30 degrees is.
> I understand 80 or 90 degrees out. That makes sense. Thats freggin hot, lemme go grab my shorts and show off my arms and be cute.
> 
> ...



Then why does it freeze at 32 Fahrenheit? If you ask me that doesn't make any sense.


----------



## PercyD (Jan 7, 2019)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Then why does it freeze at 32 Fahrenheit? If you ask me that doesn't make any sense.


Because Fahrenheit is based on how PEOPLE FEEL and not on how WATER FREGGIN FREEZES.

Listen. I'll even concede as an engineer that Celsius has it's place as a more scientific measurement of temperature. If I'm checking the tensile limit of steel, it's better done at Celsius, fine.

However, if I'm preparing to go to the freggin beach-- I don't need to know when water freezes, y'all. I just don't!


----------



## modfox (Jan 7, 2019)

sweet jesus it burns


----------



## Fallowfox (Jan 7, 2019)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Let's be real: the shutdown is more about political grandstanding (for both sides) than anything else... but, (at the end of the day) enough anger and impatience about the shutdown (coming from the populace, especially Federal workers) *will force both sides of the government to work together*, (I predict), in due course.
> 
> The impasse can only last for so long.



I wouldn't hold your breath.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 7, 2019)

@SSJ3Mewtwo 




Plz lock


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> @SSJ3Mewtwo
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The discussion is still relevant to the main topic, so no, I'm not inclined to close the thread.

And that does not mean that you should try to deliberately derail it.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 7, 2019)

SSJ3Mewtwo said:


> The discussion is still relevant to the main topic, so no, I'm not inclined to close the thread.
> 
> And that does not mean that you should try to deliberately derail it.


I wasn't trying to derail. The temperature system discussion seems to be invading, but I'll respect you decision.


----------



## PercyD (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I wasn't trying to derail. The temperature system discussion seems to be invading, but I'll respect you decision.


The temperature discussion came about because someone wanted to switch everything to metric while the government is down. 
But frankly everyone seems to have said whats needed to be said about this really dumb situation. The only thing left to pontificate on is our choice in measurements, apparently.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 7, 2019)

Government is asleep, post ponies I guess?





But seriously, if the government remains shut down too long, the Anarchists are going to get on that ungovernable shit in a big way. Which wouldn't be a long term solution, but would certainly help. 

(The idea of becoming ungovernable to Anarchist is a tactic of creating parallel and minimally hierarchical institutions to government programs and necessary services such as medical care and agriculture/food aid.)


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Jan 7, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I wouldn't hold your breath.


I'm not.


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> @SSJ3Mewtwo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is my topic.
You have no justification to request it be *LOCKED*
I'm sitting-back, watching how the reaction from folks unfolds.
I'm pissed that govt. is so inept it can't do it's job, yet those responsible for the idiocy keep earning their paychecks, raises, full medical and retirement benefits,,,

all the while, the 'Country' suffers.

Seeing how people continue to focus on the fucking 'Wall', when THAT topic already has it's own thread, is a bit disheartening, but it also indicates the divisiveness in our society, which I believe is magnified in Congress/The White House.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 7, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> This is my topic.
> You have no justification to request it be *LOCKED*
> I'm sitting-back, watching how the reaction from folks unfolds.
> I'm pissed that govt. is so inept it can't do it's job, yet those responsible for the idiocy keep earning their paychecks, raises, full medical and retirement benefits,,,
> ...


A. The wall is the sticking point of any new budget.
B. The wall thread got locked because it got more toxic than Pokemon Gen 1 Toxic.


----------



## Tao (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A. The wall is the sticking point of any new budget.
> B. The wall thread got locked because it got more toxic than Pokemon Gen 1 Toxic.



Gen 1 is the superior Gen though.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 7, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> *rolls eyes* This post is painful to look at do to being obvious bait post so I will quote just to prevent someone else from falling for it.
> 
> Besides that like I said Donald Trump needs to be impeached no further discussion needed and that is only way we can begin to heal is to remove the infected part from the government. At this point I would rather deal with whatever fruit loop hair brain laws Mike Pence will come up with than dealing with president who is a stooge of Vladmir Putin.


I do want to address the "Trump is a Russian puppet" thing. 

Trump might be Putin's buddy, but he is no puppet. They are allies of convenience, and Trump has had no qualms in stepping on Putin's toes when it benefits him, but never so much as to damage their alliance.

It's also a bit of a scapegoat using Russia as an external enemy we can fear, instead of looking internally at our own fucked up political landscape. But the current Dems don't want us to do that, because then we might vote for more progressive candidates in the primaries, which would unseat their political positions and re-align the party against some of their financial backers. Mind, the Dems financial backers are generally less scummy than Republican corperate donors, but they still have economic interests they want to protect at our expense. But even within liberal political circles, there is a shift to a more genuinely progressive liberal position. One that the current batch of Dems is fighting tooth and nail, and that has the Republicans sweating bullets.


----------



## Attaman (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I do want to address the "Trump is a Russian puppet" thing.
> 
> Trump might be Putin's buddy, but he is no puppet. They are allies of convenience, and Trump has had no qualms in stepping on Putin's toes when it benefits him, but never so much as to damage their alliance.


It is also worth pointing out that the feeling is mutual for Putin: He is more than willing to throw Trump under the bus if it will either make things better for Russia, or help to further destabilize Russia’s geo-political rivals. The difference is predominantly that one side is justified in believing itself to be getting the better end of the stick, and the other isn’t.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> It's also a bit of a scapegoat using Russia as an external enemy we can fear, instead of looking internally at our own fucked up political landscape.


 I mean, it’s very much worth remembering that Russia is an external enemy (albeit “hostile geopolitical rival” might be more accurate) and that multiple nations’ intelligence apparatus’ have confirmed as much: They have been caught with everything from using chemical weapons for assassinations on foreign soil, to hacking into databases of major national parties (and other various manners of electoral tampering, within and without the US), co-opted Wikileaks and been using it to push their own ideological and political goals...



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> But the current Dems don't want us to do that, because then we might vote for more progressive candidates in the primaries, which would unseat their political positions and re-align the party against some of their financial backers.


I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but the Democratic Party has been shifting progressively since at least 2008. Obama and HRC (who were both Liberal-wing, versus Centrist or Blue Dog / Conservative) were our last two Presidential candidates, the major differences between Sanders and Clintons’ campaigns were on whether Class or Identity issued (respectively) were of higher priority and which economists to listen to (Sanders being in the Job Guarantee camp, for example, and Clinton the Basic Income Guarantee / Living Stipend camp), and the reasons people call Warren and Sanders both Centrists / Obama and Clinton Blue Dogs now have less to do with them tacking Rightward (they haven’t) so much as the fact that What is “Left” has progressed so much in the last decade that things which were once Out There pipe dreams (aforementioned BJG / BIG, Minimum Wage $15+, Improved Paths to Citizenship) are now considered defaults much in the same way as Universal Healthcare and LGBTQ+ Rights (both things immensely controversial in the 90’s, to the point that the former is part of what started a now 20+ year long hostile media campaign) became staples to the Democratic Platfotm in the late 00’s / early 10’s.


----------



## CerusSerenade (Jan 7, 2019)

@SSJ3Mewtwo May as well lock this topic, it's basically the exact same as the previously locked topic "Fuck ya wall" and is going the same way.


----------



## Telnac (Jan 7, 2019)

Trump may be impeached but I don't see any way he'd be removed from office. You'd get two or three GOP senators voting to remove him, tops. You need far more than that for him to be removed from office. The best way to get rid of Trump is to vote against him in 2020.

I certainly hope Trump and Pelosi find a way to work together by then!


----------



## Telnac (Jan 7, 2019)

CerusSerenade said:


> @SSJ3Mewtwo May as well lock this topic, it's basically the exact same as the previously locked topic "Fuck ya wall" and is going the same way.


I disagree. The wall may be the reason for the government shutdown but this thread is still mostly about the political process itself and isn't just about the wall. Plus there is still some genuine debate going on and not just name-calling.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 7, 2019)

Attaman said:


> It is also worth pointing out that the feeling is mutual for Putin: He is more than willing to throw Trump under the bus if it will either make things better for Russia, or help to further destabilize Russia’s geo-political rivals. The difference is predominantly that one side is justified in believing itself to be getting the better end of the stick, and the other isn’t.
> 
> I mean, it’s very much worth remembering that Russia is an external enemy (albeit “hostile geopolitical rival” might be more accurate) and that multiple nations’ intelligence apparatus’ have confirmed as much: They have been caught with everything from using chemical weapons for assassinations on foreign soil, to hacking into databases of major national parties (and other various manners of electoral tampering, within and without the US), co-opted Wikileaks and been using it to push their own ideological and political goals...
> 
> ...


These things have always been considered left, and moderate left at that. But the overton window has been shifted right for a few decades, so those concepts appear radical. The democratic party has shifted left, but because progressive politicians are usurping established democrats. The overton window is shifting towards the center again, so people are seeing establishment Dems for what they are, and that's damn near centerline or even right leaning.


----------



## Yakamaru (Jan 7, 2019)

Still talk of impeachment, but there is nothing to actually impeach him on. Despite 2 years of "investigations", nothing. Just some false flag crap and a bazillion different allegations that's lead to nowhere. 

As for the thread topic itself, Presidents before Trump have done exactly the same when it comes to shutting down the government. Doesn't mean I agree with it, however. If one or both sides are unwilling to negotiate, you end up with a shutdown. This was quite frankly expected, to be honest. 

If the ones who are elected to serve, protect and represent the people who voted them in does not do their job, then they need to be sacked and someone else who actually does listen will have to be voted in. 

Also, something not entirely related but still relevant enough: Term limits, something I am in favor of. Career politicians are disconnected from the people they are meant to represent very often, and you end up with this Elitist crowd who think they are entitled to people's support. It's not always the case, but it happens often. 

Tho $5.7 billion that is wanted is peanuts compared to the $4 trillion budget.


----------



## Attaman (Jan 7, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> These things have always been considered left, and moderate left at that. But the overton window has been shifted right for a few decades, so those concepts appear radical. The democratic party has shifted left, but because progressive politicians are usurping established democrats. The overton window is shifting towards the center again, so people are seeing establishment Dems for what they are, and that's damn near centerline or even right leaning.


Being fair, in some regards (specifically, immigration) somehow the "Establishment" is more often to the Left of many of the mainstream international Leftist movements (though I would not be surprised if a lot of that stems from the fact that immigration reform / open borders is one of the few spots where "Capital" and "On the Left quadrant of the political spectrum" intersect due to the fact that immigration is conclusively proven to be _*really fucking good*_ for economics and if anything is sure to catch the former's eye it's "Things that make more $$$"), though as you say a lot of stuff considered "Far Left" in the United States has long since been conceded as "Left" or even "Center" in other nations.

I think outside immigration only... identity politics, maybe (and specifically in relation to race: Very much _*not*_ as much for things like sex or gender or whatnot) has the Establishment particularly - definitively - defined as "Left" when compared internationally, and a lot of that ties heavily back into aforementioned immigration comment since for a lot of sans-US world powers the demographics look like "Well you have the English then the French then the Dutch then the Polish and then the Italians and...", whereas in the US a number of those would just get lump-summed into "Non-Hispanic White". Hence why race relations in the US prove frustratingly opaque to a lot of people outside of it since they don't understand that _*Wisconsin*_ has more demographical diversity than the UK.


EDIT: Also, in a comment that comes completely out of the aether, I am going to repeat my earlier comments on the matter of "career politicians".


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 7, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> *rolls eyes* This post is painful to look at do to being obvious bait post so I will quote just to prevent someone else from falling for it.
> 
> Besides that like I said Donald Trump needs to be impeached no further discussion needed and that is only way we can begin to heal is to remove the infected part from the government. At this point I would rather deal with whatever fruit loop hair brain laws Mike Pence will come up with than dealing with president who is a stooge of Vladmir Putin.


Trump isn't the root of the problem.
Put ANYONE behind the POTUS' desk, and it is still the same problem.
Govt. accountability is NIL, and that, is, the, problem.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Jan 7, 2019)

CerusSerenade said:


> @SSJ3Mewtwo May as well lock this topic, it's basically the exact same as the previously locked topic "Fuck ya wall" and is going the same way.



The topic is still being discussed, instead of the thread devolving into bickering.  So I'm fine with leaving it open for now.  If it's subject matter you don't care for, you are welcome to stay out of the thread.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Jan 8, 2019)

This shutdown is not really about the Wall I suppose. Considering the courts can't work propperly during a shutdown, some of the ascertainments against trump and his confidants get delayed to. This whole issue just seems to be a big smokescreen. Trump is trying to cheat the gallows ones more, taking the whole country hostage in this process.


----------



## Telnac (Jan 8, 2019)

dragon-in-sight said:


> This shutdown is not really about the Wall I suppose. Considering the courts can't work propperly during a shutdown, some of the ascertainments against trump and his confidants get delayed to. This whole issue just seems to be a big smokescreen. Trump is trying to cheat the gallows ones more, taking the whole country hostage in this process.


Not true. Neither Congress nor the President has the authority to force the courts to close by choking off their funds. For cases determined by the federal judges to be of vital national importance, judges can order court to remain in session during the shutdown. Rest assured, rulings about any attempted Trump state of emergency to build the wall would qualify!


----------



## Kitsune633 (Jan 8, 2019)

People.

Trump is doing this for ratings, in his mind, he never left that TV show. What was it again? Shark Tank? The Apprentice?


----------



## TrishaCat (Jan 8, 2019)

If the Democrats give in and let Trump build his wall I will be filled with salt.
This wall thing is ridiculously dumb and the fact that he's pushing so hard for it SUCKS.


----------



## Simo (Jan 8, 2019)

"It’s funny that we are still talking about the physical features of what President Trump wants or will settle for on our country’s southern border — about whether it will be concrete or steel, solid or slatted, a fancied-up fence or, in Nancy Pelosi’s hilariously acerbic dig, a “beaded curtain.” Because it’s not really a wall that Trump is after, if indeed it ever was. It’s a victory for victory’s sake. It’s a show of his might. It’s proof of his potency.

The longer his stalemate with Democrats in Congress grinds on, the clearer that becomes. Seldom has a president’s ego been this tender, and seldom has it required so much shoring up. There’s not enough concrete in creation for that job."

-Frank Bruni, NYT

(and yes, the 'beaded curtain' comment made me laugh )


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Jan 8, 2019)

Simo said:


> "It’s funny that we are still talking about the physical features of what President Trump wants or will settle for on our country’s southern border — about whether it will be concrete or steel, solid or slatted, a fancied-up fence or, in Nancy Pelosi’s hilariously acerbic dig, a “*beaded curtain.*” Because it’s not really a wall that Trump is after, if indeed it ever was. It’s a victory for victory’s sake. It’s a show of his might. It’s proof of his potency.
> 
> The longer his stalemate with Democrats in Congress grinds on, the clearer that becomes. Seldom has a president’s ego been this tender, and seldom has it required so much shoring up. There’s not enough concrete in creation for that job."
> 
> ...


Hopefully the curtains will match the terrain since whats more powerful than an invisible wall?


----------



## LycanTheory (Jan 9, 2019)

Eh... Lock the doors and throw away the key for all I care.

Politicians and the government which they occupy have largely become little more than the WWE. It's all theiactrics and posturing to keep the citizens of this country divided in some way and thereby ensure we remain subjugated to the ruling elite.

I say tear it all down and let us start from scratch again.

Lyc


----------



## Telnac (Jan 9, 2019)

LycanTheory said:


> Eh... Lock the doors and throw away the key for all I care.
> 
> Politicians and the government which they occupy have largely become little more than the WWE. It's all theiactrics and posturing to keep the citizens of this country divided in some way and thereby ensure we remain subjugated to the ruling elite.
> 
> ...


At least the WWE is entertaining. I doubt many would pay to see a Trump/McConnell vs Pelosi/Schumer cage match throw down, although that would be an awesome way to resolve the government shutdown.


----------



## Simo (Jan 9, 2019)

Telnac said:


> At least the WWE is entertaining. I doubt many would pay to see a Trump/McConnell vs Pelosi/Schumer cage match throw down, although that would be an awesome way to resolve the government shutdown.


 
If this happens, I'm putting my money on Pelosi. : )


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 9, 2019)

Simo said:


> If this happens, I'm putting my money on Pelosi. : )


I'm betting they all suffer heart attacks in the process.

'cause, Karma...


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 10, 2019)

I'd stepped away from this topic, but I felt it relevant to mention that prototype testing indicated the steel bar design being touted by Trump can be sawed through relatively easily.


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I'd stepped away from this topic, but I felt it relevant to mention that prototype testing indicated the steel bar design being touted by Trump can be sawed through relatively easily.


The cheapest material available would be used so the contractor(who will undoubtedly have ties to Trump) can take those billions of our dollars and stuff em in an offshore account. Nah, Trump ain't a crook.(dripping sarcasm)


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 10, 2019)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> The cheapest material available would be used so the contractor(who will undoubtedly have ties to Trump) can take those billions of our dollars and stuff em in an offshore account. Nah, Trump ain't a crook.(dripping sarcasm)


It's not Trump's personal graft I'm worried about on this one...
www.pogo.org: Bad Actors Among Border Wall Contractors


----------



## Telnac (Jan 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I'd stepped away from this topic, but I felt it relevant to mention that prototype testing indicated the steel bar design being touted by Trump can be sawed through relatively easily.


Found the article.

www.nbcnews.com: Steel prototype for border wall cut through with saw, photo shows

Trump's claiming that the breached designs were based on older slat-style barriers already in use and that the new design reflects lessons learned by such testing. A bigger problem with this design IMO is how easy it is to climb. Numerous videos online exist showing people doing just that while carrying a backpack full of likely illicit goods. The new wall designs have a solid top to them but where one section of wall is significantly higher than the adjacent section, that can be climbed too.

That's why I think an electronic frontier makes more sense than a wall. But no one seems to be making that case. It's a wall or nothing. *sighs*


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Jan 11, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Found the article.
> 
> www.nbcnews.com: Steel prototype for border wall cut through with saw, photo shows
> 
> ...


So in other words and electrified barbed wire fence?...... Fine by me and at this point there is a reason why I am nodding my head and going along with this stuff. (For the record he can declare state of emergency at any time and do anything he wants to dissidents. Call me a coward but if anyone was in my position of being a disabled gay man you would be pretty damn afraid of what our president can do with executive orders. So I am trying to keep myself from getting hurt.)


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Jan 11, 2019)

They could just build a brick wall, with barbed wire fencing atop... with security cameras everywhere. You can't cut through all that.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 11, 2019)

An electrified fence would be such a bad idea and result in an impressive loss of life. Though I think he is suggesting motion sensors and shit, which have their own problems and costs, namely the aforementioned wildlife setting off the alarm, requiring camera monitoring, which creates more jobs that fail to produce value but cost taxpayers.


----------



## AnnoyedAnon (Jan 11, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Found the article.
> 
> www.nbcnews.com: Steel prototype for border wall cut through with saw, photo shows
> 
> ...


Why is it always something bad with you people? A backpack full of ilicit goods? Are you kidding me? The more logical idea is that they have supplies for the long journey. Most "ilicit goods" go through ports of entry so a wall would do jack shit.


----------



## LycanTheory (Jan 12, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> So in other words and electrified barbed wire fence?...... Fine by me and at this point there is a reason why I am nodding my head and going along with this stuff. (For the record he can declare state of emergency at any time and do anything he wants to dissidents. Call me a coward but if anyone was in my position of being a disabled gay man you would be pretty damn afraid of what our president can do with executive orders. So I am trying to keep myself from getting hurt.)



It is disturbing the level of powet that the executive branch has amassed over several recent administrations and it's a continuing trend, regardless of which side of the coin is in power.

This is the very reason the second amendment was written into the Constitution.

Lyc


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 12, 2019)

LycanTheory said:


> It is disturbing the level of powet that the executive branch has amassed over several recent administrations and it's a continuing trend, regardless of which side of the coin is in power.
> 
> This is the very reason the second amendment was written into the Constitution.
> 
> Lyc


And we added guns to the conversation...


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 12, 2019)

Honestly, if any Federal employees deserve NOT TO BE PAID, in my opinion that should include Congress, The White House, and The Supreme Court. Ain't none of them doing anything to HELP THIS COUNTRY!!


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 12, 2019)

Part of what interests, me, reading and following-along with all the replies and such?

The way the original topic, "Govt. Shut-Down", diverged back to the 'Wall', and assorted sundry topics that don't have any relevance to my OP.

It's good to see folks ARE concerned about such things.  That gives me some hope.

It'd be nice if we as a 'Community', could FOCUS on the topic(s) presented, however?  Watching post after post go sideways is a tad disconcerting at best.

:-D


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 12, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Part of what interests, me, reading and following-along with all the replies and such?
> 
> The way the original topic, "Govt. Shut-Down", diverged back to the 'Wall', and assorted sundry topics that don't have any relevance to my OP.
> 
> ...


The government shutdown is explicitly over whether or not the budget includes wall funds. It's at the heart of the issue.


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Jan 12, 2019)

At least the IRS will be issuing refunds.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 12, 2019)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> At least the IRS will be issuing refunds.


Does anyone know exactly how they plan to pull that off?


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 13, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The government shutdown is explicitly over whether or not the budget includes wall funds. It's at the heart of the issue.


That is your opinion.
This is hardly the first time a govt. shutdown, or THREAT of, has happened.
It certainly won't be the last, unless "The People" finally say, 'Enough is ENOUGH!', and does what it takes to throw out the worthless chaff and elect/install people who will do the jobs expected of them.

"The Wall" is only the current excuse for this shutdown happening.

The issue(s) are far deeper than a useless structure, and considering there is already a OP specifically discussing it, I see comments transferring here as being a tad duplicitous and certainly indicative of how folks take an OP and go sideways with other things.  

There.

Does that explain my views better?


----------



## Pipistrele (Jan 13, 2019)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> This forum just likes to bicker about politics :/


Oh boy, it does. I don't mind much personally, but I still can't help myself to be amazed by some people who gush over cartoon animals and indulge in (positively) childish roleplay/forumplay activities yet suddenly turn into long-winded political know-it-alls at the first whim. That kind of dissonance will never fail to fascinate me - kinda like, "I exchanged snuggles and flirted with skunks a while ago, but now let's have a serious discussion about benefits of second amendment"


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 13, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> Oh boy, it does. I don't mind much personally, but I still can't help myself to be amazed by some people who gush over cartoon animals and indulge in (positively) childish roleplay/forumplay activities yet suddenly turn into long-winded political know-it-alls at the first whim. That kind of dissonance will never fail to fascinate me - kinda like, "I exchanged snuggles and flirted with skunks a while ago, but now let's have a serious discussion about benefits of second amendment"



This is the 'General Discussion' part of FA.
It is not restricted to Anthropomorphic-Only topics.
If you and others wish to see ONLY 'Fun-Furry-Related-Topics'?  You can certainly find enough of that, elsewhere.

Don't ridicule or demean the many people that make-up the Anthro-Fandom's whole populace for simply expressing concerns related to the real world.

Thank You.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jan 13, 2019)

Regarding earlier posts in this thread about Trump being a Russian puppet, I suppose it is relevant to bring up that the FBI opened an investigation in 2017 to discern whether he is a Russian asset who is working to benefit Russia by deliberately destabilising American institutions.

www.nytimes.com: F.B.I. Opened Inquiry Into Whether Trump Was Secretly Working on Behalf of Russia

Now that he's caused the longest shut down in American history, maybe that idea is growing legs. 



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> That is your opinion.









Misha's right though; this_ is _an unassailable fact.
I don't understand your reasons for wanting this fact to be treated as an elephant in the room that everybody is forbidden from mentioning. S:

If you want to have a discussion about restructuring government to prevent or reduce the possibility of shut-downs in the future, do you have any ideas about how that might be achieved beyond 'all politicians are bad and I hate them, we should fire every last one of them'?


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## Pipistrele (Jan 13, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> This is the 'General Discussion' part of FA.
> It is not restricted to Anthropomorphic-Only topics.
> If you and others wish to see ONLY 'Fun-Furry-Related-Topics'?  You can certainly find enough of that, elsewhere.
> 
> ...


I mean, I get your point, but it's still kinda hard not to roll eyes when someone's "ohmygosh pawsies-snuglies :* :* :*" in one thread and then "Let me talk a lot with a very serious face about complex political issues" five minutes later. The "rolleye" factor is more about said people writing long-winded, (ostensibly) elaborate posts with decent amount of frivolous hyperlinks - which goes above and beyond merely expressing concerns and lands close to the couch politician territory.

Besides, the fact that it's a "general discussion" subforum only underlines FAF userbase's tendency to go into silly political debates - of all the other forums and Discord/Reddit places I know (furry-related or not), FurAffinity Forums is the only one that uses general section extensively to scream about politics at each other.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 13, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> I mean, I get your point, but it's still kinda hard not to roll eyes when someone's "ohmygosh pawsies-snuglies :* :* :*" in one thread and then "Let me talk a lot with a very serious face about complex political issues" five minutes later. The "rolleye" factor is more about said people writing long-winded, (ostensibly) elaborate posts with decent amount of frivolous hyperlinks - which goes above and beyond merely expressing concerns and lands close to the couch politician territory.
> 
> Besides, the fact that it's a "general discussion" subforum only underlines FAF userbase's tendency to go into silly political debates - of all the other forums and Discord/Reddit places I know (furry-related or not), FurAffinity Forums is the only one that uses general section extensively to scream about politics at each other.



*Boops your pawsies*


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## Pipistrele (Jan 13, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> *Boops your pawsies*


*hugsies with pawsies* <3


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## CertifiedCervine (Jan 13, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> Oh boy, it does. I don't mind much personally, but I still can't help myself to be amazed by some people who gush over cartoon animals and indulge in (positively) childish roleplay/forumplay activities yet suddenly turn into long-winded political know-it-alls at the first whim. That kind of dissonance will never fail to fascinate me - kinda like, "I exchanged snuggles and flirted with skunks a while ago, but now let's have a serious discussion about benefits of second amendment"


I dont mind the politics either, but it doesn't ever seem to end well. The reason i’m against politics here is because a lot of the threads spiral into nazi accusations, people that will do anything to prove you wrong, and such that only really bring drama. And, I mean tbh politics can get kinda boring :V
“Trump does something weird?”
Oh, must be a Thursday then
*sips tea*


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 13, 2019)

*boops their gun's boltie*


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## Fallowfox (Jan 13, 2019)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> I dont mind the politics either, but it doesn't ever seem to end well. The reason i’m against politics here is because a lot of the threads spiral into nazi accusations, people that will do anything to prove you wrong, and such that only really bring drama. And, I mean tbh politics can get kinda boring :V
> “Trump does something weird?”
> Oh, must be a Thursday then
> *sips tea*



For everybody who isn't American it's kinda frustrating that politics in our countries is beyond discussion.

When it *does* get discussed it's also basically just a reminder that the only information a lot of people know about your country is from watching youtube videos. :C


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 13, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> For everybody who isn't American it's kinda frustrating that politics in our countries is beyond discussion.
> 
> When it *does* get discussed it's also basically just a reminder that the only information a lot of people know about your country is from watching youtube videos. :C


But Sargon is such a reliable news source!


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jan 13, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Does anyone know exactly how they plan to pull that off?



I was going to avoid saying anything in this thread overall but this one about IRS refunds actually got me thinking and (given that this could be leverage the Democrats can use) I tried to do a little searching.  They apparently delayed refunds for a week during the 2013 shutdown and at least one Democrat (Hoyer, I think?) is straight-up calling this insistence on on-time distribution illegal.

It seems to relate to whether the IRS has an exemption to the "Antideficiency Act".

I will admit I'm not feeling a desire to mire myself in this TOO much right now, and this may not be the specific accomplishment bit you're seeking, but here's about the extent of what I found during cursory searches: federalnewsnetwork.com: Can IRS pay tax refunds during shutdown? It depends who you ask


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## Pipistrele (Jan 13, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> For everybody who isn't American it's kinda frustrating that politics in our countries is beyond discussion.
> 
> When it *does* get discussed it's also basically just a reminder that the only information a lot of people know about your country is from watching youtube videos. :C


That too, honestly. Especially when someone uses their knowledge of your country's culture/political climate to make a point, only to completely fail at that because they actually know jack crap about your country  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 13, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Regarding earlier posts in this thread about Trump being a Russian puppet, I suppose it is relevant to bring up that the FBI opened an investigation in 2017 to discern whether he is a Russian asset who is working to benefit Russia by deliberately destabilising American institutions.
> 
> www.nytimes.com: F.B.I. Opened Inquiry Into Whether Trump Was Secretly Working on Behalf of Russia
> 
> ...



I made it a point to be as succinct about my OP as I could.
Current people in govt., elected, hired, expected to do their jobs-  aren't.
My idea is quite simple for starters:  FIRE THEM.  Hire new people, who will then KNOW they'll be expected to do their damned jobs, or THEY will be fired, and replace, until "The People" are satisfied.
That is my first, initial idea, and I presented it.

I was hoping more folks would chime-in with their ideas to solidify this move.

Mostly, what I've seen is a resurrection of "The Wall" debate, which has already been beaten past mush in other places.

Feel free to contribute your ideas about how we can prevent another 'Shutdown', and hold politicians/judges/lawyers responsible for them, from being able to do so in the future.

Thank You.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 13, 2019)

Unless you plan to fight a revolution, I'd suggest voting, campaigning, or even going into politics yourself. 

And I pray you aren't suggesting revolution, because fighting a revolution because the current politicians are shit without any attemp to solve the systemic problems that got us here is a waste of human life.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 13, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> I mean, I get your point, but it's still kinda hard not to roll eyes when someone's "ohmygosh pawsies-snuglies :* :* :*" in one thread and then "Let me talk a lot with a very serious face about complex political issues" five minutes later. The "rolleye" factor is more about said people writing long-winded, (ostensibly) elaborate posts with decent amount of frivolous hyperlinks - which goes above and beyond merely expressing concerns and lands close to the couch politician territory.
> 
> Besides, the fact that it's a "general discussion" subforum only underlines FAF userbase's tendency to go into silly political debates - of all the other forums and Discord/Reddit places I know (furry-related or not), FurAffinity Forums is the only one that uses general section extensively to scream about politics at each other.



I believe that, the older you get, the more years you've invested in 'The System', by working, paying taxes, then more taxes, watch as govt. levies still MORE taxes on any and sundry it can get it's grubby mitts on, you finally start to open your eyes and consider what the fuck's going on, and how did things get this g-damned bad?

That's just me.  I know many 'Adults', who don't give a fig about govt., until THEY need it.  

Since I'm reaching the end of this life, and have had enough of govt.'s red tape to gag a maggot?

Call my a tad cynical.  I admit it.

Seeing the younger generation(s) protesting, is both a bemusement and a hope that perhaps, just perhaps, enough of  "The People" are also fed-up with the hyperbolic bullshit govt. keeps shoveling down the throats of the very citizens it depends on to exist:  the tax-payer/worker.

Long-winded posts?  No one's making you read 'em.


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## Pipistrele (Jan 13, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> I believe that, the older you get, the more years you've invested in 'The System', by working, paying taxes, then more taxes, watch as govt. levies still MORE taxes on any and sundry it can get it's grubby mitts on, you finally start to open your eyes and consider what the fuck's going on, and how did things get this g-damned bad?
> 
> That's just me.  I know many 'Adults', who don't give a fig about govt., until THEY need it.
> 
> ...


Active political stance is good, but venting and organizing virtual debates on a furry subforum doesn't strike me as productive way to apply it. I'm not gatekeeping people from doing that, but on this site, in this particular context, with this kind of "know-it-all" execution, it's kinda destined to fail at being something more than "amusingly cringeworthy" at best and "toxic and pointless" at worst. Besides, as an actual participant in my country's opposition group, I'd rather encourage people to organize, go outside and do something with stuff above, rather than drop some smart words about political climate and return to hugsies-pawsies. 



> Long-winded posts?  No one's making you read 'em.


No one's making you read my posts either, yet you complain  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 13, 2019)

Taxes have been on a downward since the 1940s, and recently dropped in the early 2000s.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 14, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> Active political stance is good, but venting and organizing virtual debates on a furry subforum doesn't strike me as productive way to apply it. I'm not gatekeeping people from doing that, but on this site, in this particular context, with this kind of "know-it-all" execution, it's kinda destined to fail at being something more than "amusingly cringeworthy" at best and "toxic and pointless" at worst. Besides, as an actual participant in my country's opposition group, I'd rather encourage people to organize, go outside and do something with stuff above, rather than drop some smart words about political climate and return to hugsies-pawsies.
> 
> 
> No one's making you read my posts either, yet you complain  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Do you seriously believe I limit my thoughts re: political and theological (different topic, but one that applies to my real life), to this Furry Forum?
Only?
LOL

Well, 'Thank You!' for the hearty chuckles...

I don't recall complaining about your posts?  I may make reference to them, I may not agree with them, but they're yours.  I respect your 1st Amendment Right to 'Free Speech' even in textual form.


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## CertifiedCervine (Jan 14, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Do you seriously believe I limit my thoughts re: political and theological (different topic, but one that applies to my real life), to this Furry Forum?
> Only?
> LOL
> 
> ...


I dont see anywhere in her post where she said that you limit your knowledge to here?

What I think she is saying, is that not everywhere is an appropriate/effective place to talk politics

Take an elementary school or funeral home for example,
Do you think theyll care about “collision” “fake news” “government shutdown” etc?
She’s saying if you want to share political ideas, there are better places to do so then a furry forum, where only a small handful will actually always care about the issue at hand as passionately


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 14, 2019)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> I dont see anywhere in her post where she said that you limit your knowledge to here?
> 
> What I think she is saying, is that not everywhere is an appropriate/effective place to talk politics
> 
> ...


Fair enough.
I'd say this to that perspective:
Why do political topics continue to appear, if it has no relevance to those within the Furry Fandom?
Playing 'Devil's Advocate'... (Great movie, btw.  I highly recommend folks watch it.)


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## CertifiedCervine (Jan 14, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Fair enough.
> I'd say this to that perspective:
> Why do political topics continue to appear, if it has no relevance to those within the Furry Fandom?
> Playing 'Devil's Advocate'... (Great movie, btw.  I highly recommend folks watch it.)


I’d think that it was at first brought of as a general thing to talk about, like you first mentioned, but as time went on, and the political climate intensified it became way less possible to communicate effectively on the matter online.
Example could be how often these threads will get locked or end in accusations

Edit: I did find a subforum/reddit dedicated for political discussion if you want to check it out however. Seems to be good moderation to keep things from spiraling downhill like they do here too.
www.reddit.com: r/politics


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## Attaman (Jan 14, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Taxes have been on a downward since the 1940s, and recently dropped in the early 2000s.


Don't forget the 2017 Tax Bill, the one intended to "revitalize the economy". Want to remind Shadow how that worked out? Both for the economy and in regards to why we have the current shutdown in the first place?

Watching people warble about taxes in the United States as though they're being overtaxed is just a mind-boggling exercise for me, especially considering how many people don't seem to realize what they're used for. Hint: It's not to pay those nasty wasty Democrats and Independents to line their pockets. It's for basic infrastructural stuff like roads. Or retirement funds. Or ensuring that public monuments don't literally overflow with trash and shit. And as Misha mentioned above, taxes have generally been going _down_ instead of up, with tax returns almost demanded (and, at the very least, expected) by most Americans (if, being fair, often a vital money injection for lower income brackets).

Temporarily Inconvenienced Millionaire Syndrome is one hell of a disease.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 14, 2019)

Attaman said:


> Temporarily Inconvenienced Millionaire Syndrome is one hell of a disease.


It's not even that, because high end taxes have come down the most.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 14, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> I made it a point to be as succinct about my OP as I could.
> Current people in govt., elected, hired, expected to do their jobs-  aren't.
> My idea is quite simple for starters:  FIRE THEM.  Hire new people, who will then KNOW they'll be expected to do their damned jobs, or THEY will be fired, and replace, until "The People" are satisfied.
> That is my first, initial idea, and I presented it.
> ...



It's not really a solution to_ fire everybody in government _though is it? 

It's like trying to remove a rotten tooth with a sledge-hammer; your solution would be more disruptive for normal people than the problem actually is.


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## Simo (Jan 14, 2019)

So if all the top 4 'players' here had fursona's what would they be?

I see Trump as a tubby, orange guinea pig, the messy hair kind.
Mitch McConnel is a baffled looking turtle.
Nancy Pelosi, I see as a fox. She's been around; crafty.
Chuck Schumer I see as a hound dawg.

~

Also, *boops everyone's pawsies and gives snuggle-wuggles to everyfur on this tread, and tickles all the noses with my skunky tail*


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 14, 2019)

Simo said:


> So if all the top 4 'players' here had fursona's what would they be?
> 
> I see Trump as a tubby, orange guinea pig, the messy hair kind.
> Mitch McConnel is a baffled looking turtle.
> ...


I'd picture Pelosi as a haggard looking owl.


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## Attaman (Jan 14, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> It's not even that, because high end taxes have come down the most.


Oh, quite: Sorry if I implied otherwise. I was referring more to the number of Americans who feel that, any day / month / year now, _they_ are going to be in the $100,000+ yearly income bracket, and so any efforts made to increase taxes and / or societal responsibilities for such brackets are an effort against (future) them.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 14, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> It's not really a solution to_ fire everybody in government _though is it?
> 
> It's like trying to remove a rotten tooth with a sledge-hammer; your solution would be more disruptive for normal people than the problem actually is.


It's exactly the right 'Solution'
It would make any and all who follow, sit-up and finally take notice-  They.  Work.  For.  "The People".
Not the other way around.
When the apple barrel is this contaminated, your only recourse is to dump the entire contents, scour and sterilize the container, and start over.

That's precisely what I'm advocating.


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 14, 2019)

Simo said:


> So if all the top 4 'players' here had fursona's what would they be?
> 
> I see Trump as a tubby, orange guinea pig, the messy hair kind.
> Mitch McConnel is a baffled looking turtle.
> ...



I wouldn't infest the Furry Fandom with them in any form.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 14, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> It's exactly the right 'Solution'
> It would make any and all who follow, sit-up and finally take notice-  They.  Work.  For.  "The People".
> Not the other way around.
> When the apple barrel is this contaminated, your only recourse is to dump the entire contents, scour and sterilize the container, and start over.
> ...


Politicians aren't apples, and the government isn't a barrel. Many of these politicians you want purged are actively trying to end the shutdown, on both sides of the isle. But right now a supermajority would be needed to overcome the current obstructionism coming from the whitehouse.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Politicians aren't apples, and the government isn't a barrel. Many of these politicians you want purged are actively trying to end the shutdown, on both sides of the isle. But right now a supermajority would be needed to overcome the current obstructionism coming from the whitehouse.



Alright, since you seem determined to challenge this?
Lemme share with you (and anyone else who might give a damn), a short story from mine-own life experiences.
I was hired by an employer who had seen my skills under another company.  He sought me out after I quit/resigned that particular employer, due to a conflict of ethics and mores.  See, I won't steal from a customer, esp. a GOVERNMENT CONTRACT.  Nor will I compromise the work I did in any manner.  Each and every item I was paid to work on was done to the utmost of my (and every teammate/employee under me) abilities, and I was more than willing to stand by them, to the inclusion of giving a sloppy crew the option of-  work BACK through the areas you just said you did correctly, and FIX every problem, or be terminated on the spot.
This was one of many incidents that made something of a reputation in the field I was in.
Now, this employer who sought me out?
He had serious problems with his own personnel.  Cutting every corner, not working hours they claimed (and were paid for), etc., etc., etc..
I have zero tolerance for malicious (or greedy) liars, cheaters, and thieves.
Without them knowing I was even an employee, I went behind many of their current projects, and inspected them.  I spent a week doing it, and gathered all the data I needed to confirm what was going on.
The following work-week, Monday, we had the usual weekly company meeting.
I was sitting at "The Bosses' Desk" around the large table, and once everyone was seated around the table (and along the sides in other chairs), I explained what I had found, proven to be true, and that every single one of them was now terminated; collect their final checks, and get the fuck out of the building.

That made an impression that carries through to this very day, decades AFTER it happened (in the old field I no longer work in).  I still correspond with a few people I've known for the better part of 30 years, and they'll still sometimes rib me about my hardheadedness, though they certainly respected my motivation for excellence and pride in craftsmanship.

Nearly 30 field personnel lost their jobs on the spot.
Not ALL of them were worthless, but they'd certainly witnessed what the worse were doing, and said nothing to my/our Boss, to fix the companies' impending bad reputation and contracts.

If you sit-by and do nothing, you ARE part of the problem.  If you try to cover your ass by staying deaf, blind, and dumb?  You don't deserve to be employed.

I view what's going on with the govt. to be precisely the same thing.  I'm 100% certain doing what I've suggested would rattle the cages of the political agenda to such a degree, we'd actually see some WORK being done and things accomplished, instead of all this media-frenzy-inducing-bullshit about things that are not vital to the safety, security, providence of America.

Order by necessity.
I can list 10 things far more important than this g-damned 'Wall', and for the $$$ the 'Wall' would suck OUT of our coffers, vs the actual benefit it would provide?

Enough is enough.

Thank You for your patronage to my OP, and your own views.

I hope I've made mine equally clear?


----------



## AnnoyedAnon (Jan 15, 2019)

Impeach. He isn't doing his job. Most people get fired if all they say is "no not unless it's my way."


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

AnnoyedAnon said:


> Impeach. He isn't doing his job. Most people get fired if all they say is "no not unless it's my way."


Trump is merely the most-visible symptom of the entire problem.
I don't particularly hate the guy.  Hell, he's made himself rich, famous (infamous?), and is certainly self-assured (to the point of narcissism, IMHO).
POTUS is the white-head revealing a much bigger problem further down (the 'Chain-of-Command').
Yes, he COULD be far more effective.

I can only wonder why so many Presidents over the past 30+ years, has been?


----------



## Infrarednexus (Jan 15, 2019)

Simo said:


> I see Trump as a tubby, orange guinea pig, the messy hair kind.


Here you go


----------



## Fallowfox (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> It's exactly the right 'Solution'
> It would make any and all who follow, sit-up and finally take notice-  They.  Work.  For.  "The People".
> Not the other way around.
> When the apple barrel is this contaminated, your only recourse is to dump the entire contents, scour and sterilize the container, and start over.
> ...



As much as I'd like for Donald Trump and all his associated to be summarily fired,_ and everything to start fresh-over_, I think that would cause even more problems than the problem of the shutdown.

For example, countries like China, Russia, Turkey and Iran would scramble to make the most of the weakness in American foreign policy that firing_ the entire Government_ would cause.




Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Nearly 30 field personnel lost their jobs on the spot.
> Not ALL of them were worthless, but they'd certainly witnessed what the worse were doing, and said nothing to my/our Boss, to fix the companies' impending bad reputation and contracts.
> 
> If you sit-by and do nothing, you ARE part of the problem.  If you try to cover your ass by staying deaf, blind, and dumb?  You don't deserve to be employed.



Most people would be deeply ashamed about getting 30 of their coworkers fired.
They wouldn't go online and brag about it. :S
Like, congratulations, maybe you put children on foodstamps, I _bet_ you caused some divorces.

It's morally disgusting that you're proud of that.
At least if all the politicians got fired we wouldn't really have to worry about them being able to pay for medical insurance, because most of them are independently wealthy.


----------



## Saiko (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> he's made himself rich


Lmao he said himself that he started with $1M from his dad, before inflation; and it’s estimated to actually have been closer to $60M in total. That’s hardly self-made.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Not ALL of them were worthless, but they'd certainly witnessed what the worse were doing, and said nothing to my/our Boss, to fix the companies' impending bad reputation and contracts.
> 
> If you sit-by and do nothing, you ARE part of the problem. If you try to cover your ass by staying deaf, blind, and dumb? You don't deserve to be employed.
> 
> I view what's going on with the govt. to be precisely the same thing. I'm 100% certain doing what I've suggested would rattle the cages of the political agenda to such a degree, we'd actually see some WORK being done and things accomplished, instead of all this media-frenzy-inducing-bullshit about things that are not vital to the safety, security, providence of America.


Suggesting that every single Senator and Congress(wo)man is sitting by and doing nothing is pretty blind. There's a lot of them actively working to try to end the shutdown, and there's red tape stopping them from success unless they have a supermajority. Like, I'm not even American and I can see pretty damn clearly that the two situations aren't equivalent, even before taking into account the questionable morality of firing people for not being whistleblowers that @Fallowfox touched on.

Honestly, the biggest, most incomprehensible problem with this whole shutdown rigamarole is the whole "not paying government employees" bullshit, _especially_ since many of them are still expected to come to work as usual. Given the US's history with slavery, you'd think this would be a bigger deal to people than it apparently is. 

And here I'm sitting in a country that doesn't currently _have_ a government, yet manages to continue running and _paying its damn workers_.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Alright, since you seem determined to challenge this?
> Lemme share with you (and anyone else who might give a damn), a short story from mine-own life experiences.
> I was hired by an employer who had seen my skills under another company.  He sought me out after I quit/resigned that particular employer, due to a conflict of ethics and mores.  See, I won't steal from a customer, esp. a GOVERNMENT CONTRACT.  Nor will I compromise the work I did in any manner.  Each and every item I was paid to work on was done to the utmost of my (and every teammate/employee under me) abilities, and I was more than willing to stand by them, to the inclusion of giving a sloppy crew the option of-  work BACK through the areas you just said you did correctly, and FIX every problem, or be terminated on the spot.
> This was one of many incidents that made something of a reputation in the field I was in.
> ...


How much were those workers paid an hour?


----------



## Fallowfox (Jan 15, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> And here I'm sitting in a country that doesn't currently _have_ a government, yet manages to continue running and _paying its damn workers_.



I'm in a country that probably won't have one soon!


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 15, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm in a country that probably won't have one soon!


Everyone has no government you say;




Jk


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## Fallowfox (Jan 15, 2019)

I keep reading the thread title as 'America's Nation-wide no-nut-november'.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> As much as I'd like for Donald Trump and all his associated to be summarily fired,_ and everything to start fresh-over_, I think that would cause even more problems than the problem of the shutdown.
> 
> For example, countries like China, Russia, Turkey and Iran would scramble to make the most of the weakness in American foreign policy that firing_ the entire Government_ would cause.
> 
> ...



First bullet-point:
1) Hand over control of the govt. to the military, temporarily, until a new election could be done.  This shouldn't take a Country like America longer than 1 month to manage.  With the military 'In Charge', no enemy threat would believe us to be wide-open for invasion/attack.
Simple.

Second bullet-point: (Highlighted/Bolded for your easy reference)
I wasn't, and never have, 'Bragged' about being a hard-assed Manager, Supervisor, Team Leader, or Grunt-working-the-trenches (aka, 'FNG').
I knew over 12 of these people, having trained them under another employer.  In fact, they used MY NAME as a reference to get hired by this new Contractor.

You're pleading the case of the ones not doing the jobs they were trained for, and trained very well.

These people were compromising the livelihoods of everyone ELSE working in the company, the company itself, two multi-million-dollar contracts, and MY REPUTATION as the person who trained them.

You, Fallow, can cut-corners, do shoddy work, not show-up for work yet still claim you were there, the whole nine yards.
If YOU expect to keep your job after doing those things?
You must work for the govt., and are part of the g-damned problem.

Take your pleas to other ears/eyes, for I have zero tolerance for that level of stupidity.

Thank You.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Saiko said:


> Lmao he said himself that he started with $1M from his dad, before inflation; and it’s estimated to actually have been closer to $60M in total. That’s hardly self-made.


You don't believe increasing his initial investment sixty-fold, is making himself rich?
You exist in a peculiar reality.
Regardless of how much $$$ he inherited, he built on it.  That is his accomplishment (and truly, the only thing about Trump I can respect.  But that's another topic)


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> Suggesting that every single Senator and Congress(wo)man is sitting by and doing nothing is pretty blind. There's a lot of them actively working to try to end the shutdown, and there's red tape stopping them from success unless they have a supermajority. Like, I'm not even American and I can see pretty damn clearly that the two situations aren't equivalent, even before taking into account the questionable morality of firing people for not being whistleblowers that @Fallowfox touched on.
> 
> Honestly, the biggest, most incomprehensible problem with this whole shutdown rigamarole is the whole "not paying government employees" bullshit, _especially_ since many of them are still expected to come to work as usual. Given the US's history with slavery, you'd think this would be a bigger deal to people than it apparently is.
> 
> And here I'm sitting in a country that doesn't currently _have_ a government, yet manages to continue running and _paying its damn workers_.



Govt. has put in place many layers of self-defense against them losing their jobs.
Do you believe this was accidental?
I sure's hell don't.

When an entire system has become corrupted/fouled to the point of being incapable of doing the job/role it is supposed to?

Like a blown engine, you have to take the entire thing apart, replace every defective/worn part, and rebuild.

I am suggesting that is precisely what we do with our current sack of incompetent political bullshit.

Or, we can simply go-on the way things are, and watch the entire house of cards come crumbling down.

It is "The People's" choice.

I simply presented one option.


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## Attaman (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> You don't believe increasing his initial investment sixty-fold, is making himself rich?
> You exist in a peculiar reality.


Fun fact: Other persons of similar starting wealth, on average, succeeded _*better*_ than Trump. IIRC (I'd have to spend some time to hunt down the relevant articles), other persons who started with similar amounts of wealth as him generally turned a better profit. Hell, the articles in question made a pretty strong case that simply _investing in the right stocks_ (and not a "catch a shooting star, invest in Google when it was starting up" sort of invest in the right stocks, but the "Have a halfway competent person managing your investments" sort) would have netted him roughly a comparable fortune. 

Fun fact 2: For that matter, his fortune is... uh, not sixty-fold over the estimated $60 million he'd received in his initial "loan". Last I heard his number was banked somewhere around the low-to-mid hundreds of millions ($400 Million being tossed around a couple of places as of 2018), which is closer to about... 670%, his initial loan. Which again, might sound nice... if you forget that sextupling your fortune in about _forty years_ via the stockmarket isn't exactly difficult when you can begin with an initial investment of (modern equivalent of) tens of missions. 

Though this is something of a digression from the main bulk of the thread. On which note~



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Trump is merely the most-visible symptom of the entire problem.
> I don't particularly hate the guy.  Hell, he's made himself rich, famous (infamous?), and is certainly self-assured (to the point of narcissism, IMHO).
> POTUS is the white-head revealing a much bigger problem further down (the 'Chain-of-Command').
> Yes, he COULD be far more effective.
> ...


This is particularly ironic considering the last President was quite literally _*hobbled by six of his eight years being spent obstructed for entirely partisan reasons*_, and yet _*still*_ managed to turn around what was shaping up to be one of the worst economic hiccups since the Great Depression (gut-feels don't apply here, unfortunately, for his detractors: _*Multiple*_ economists across the proverbial political aisle have emphasized how the 2007-2008 economic crisis _*very*_ easily could have been "Great Depression MkII: Electric Boogaloo") into something... survivable, as well as introduce landmark legislature both re:Healthcare and the expansion of social benefits (benefits that very nearly went even _further_, with just - as one example - a strong push having been made towards increasing minimum wage, only for Republicans in the House and Senate to strangle it in the crib).

Conversely, Trump had quite literal _*complete control of all three major levers of power*_, going so far as to use that to then _*stack the fourth major lever - the Supreme Court - *_for his means, and in the past two years his most prominent legislative "victories" include... a by-technicality Supreme Court win for denying Muslim refugees access to the country, a Tax Bill that at this point has lead to at least _*two*_ Government shutdowns, and gleeful chipping away at the legislative accomplishments of the previous Presidential administration.

He's a visible symptom of a problem, but it _really_ isn't the "Both sides" you're desperately trying to convince people of it being now that "It's totally the Dems fault" is beyond the Overton Window for most of the population.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> How much were those workers paid an hour?


Like that makes one g-damned bit of difference?
You're seriously going to focus on that?

Christ, Misha, I gave you far more credit for intelligence.

My apologies.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Attaman said:


> Fun fact: Other persons of similar starting wealth, on average, succeeded _*better*_ than Trump. IIRC (I'd have to spend some time to hunt down the relevant articles), other persons who started with similar amounts of wealth as him generally turned a better profit. Hell, the articles in question made a pretty strong case that simply _investing in the right stocks_ (and not a "catch a shooting star, invest in Google when it was starting up" sort of invest in the right stocks, but the "Have a halfway competent person managing your investments" sort) would have netted him roughly a comparable fortune.
> 
> Fun fact 2: For that matter, his fortune is... uh, not sixty-fold over the estimated $60 million he'd received in his initial "loan". Last I heard his number was banked somewhere around the low-to-mid hundreds of millions ($400 Million being tossed around a couple of places as of 2018), which is closer to about... 670%, his initial loan. Which again, might sound nice... if you forget that sextupling your fortune in about _forty years_ via the stockmarket isn't exactly difficult when you can begin with an initial investment of (modern equivalent of) tens of missions.
> 
> ...



Try and focus, Attaman?
Degree-of-success is mostly irrelevant.  The simple fact is that Trump is a self-made WEALTHY MAN.
Got it?
You can throw as many figures as you'd like, percentage pts., the whole thing, it doesn't change the simple sentiment I said-

He's a self-made wealthy man.

ok?  Got it now?

I didn't address HIS degree of success, vs anyone else's.  I don't give a damn, personally.  It's not a part of my reality, except that now Trump is Commander in Chief, which DOES concern me.  Greatly.

Neither did I address previous POTUS'.
Please stop trying to derail the OP with frivolous side-topics.
Go create your own if that's what you wish to discuss.

Thx


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Try and focus, Attaman?
> Degree-of-success is mostly irrelevant.  The simple fact is that Trump is a self-made WEALTHY MAN.
> Got it?
> You can throw as many figures as you'd like, percentage pts., the whole thing, it doesn't change the simple sentiment I said-
> ...


Starting with millions as a gift from your dad after being groomed for business by your wealthy family your whole life isn't self made.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Starting with millions as a gift from your dad after being groomed for business by your wealthy family your whole life isn't self made.



Get back on topic.

thx


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> When an entire system has become corrupted/fouled to the point of being incapable of doing the job/role it is supposed to?
> 
> Like a blown engine, you have to take the entire thing apart, replace every defective/worn part, and rebuild.
> 
> I am suggesting that is precisely what we do with our current sack of incompetent political bullshit.


That analogy does not, in fact, describe your proposed solution. If you merely wanted to replace the politicians who utterly fail to even try to look out for their constituents, you'd likely see a lot less pushback in this thread.

What you're advocating is throwing the entire engine out as garbage, and somehow managing to keep using the vehicle it came from while you assemble a new one from scratch.

Far as I'm concerned, given that the problem is not caused by a deadlock in the legislative branch but an executive branch that is hell bent on allowing nothing to get done unless its pet project gets priority, you have one seriously faulty engine part and a few squeaky cogwheels that aren't ideal but not going to stop your ride dead in its tracks for the foreseeable future. (Yeah, I know sod-all about engine anatomy, but the basic point is blaming the Senate and Congress for Trump throwing his rattle out of his pram when they offer a compromise is throwing someone else's baby out with your own bathwater. Not saying they're all perfect, by any stretch, but be glad that they're not willing to fold to the President's every harebrained demand.)

But yes, absolutely the US political system is largely dysfunctional. Anything other than a move away from what effectively is a two-party system will keep it that way, no matter how many times you throw out the people working in that system.


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## AnnoyedAnon (Jan 15, 2019)

Now can this dumpsterfire be closed?


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## Attaman (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Try and focus, Attaman?
> Degree-of-success is mostly irrelevant.  The simple fact is that Trump is a self-made WEALTHY MAN.


 When you start with the modern equivalent of sixty million dollar loan, you aren't "self-made" by any stretch of the term. It would take the average household in the United States (using the mean yearly income, with at least two people working full-time) a thousand years to accumulate that as much wealth as Trump was thrust in one. It would take ten of these households a hundred years to do as much. Twenty households, in fifty years (working non-stop from adulthood to retirement), assuming zero expenses, would only just earn as much money as he was given by his father as a "start-up". 

Furthermore, if you're trying to portray Trump - by your own words - as "making himself rich", degree of success _*does*_ matter. Particularly if, again, _*nigh-anyone with the same starting funds and the two braincells necessary to hire a stock investor could get the same results*_. That's not "making himself rich".



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> You can throw as many figures as you'd like, percentage pts., the whole thing, it doesn't change the simple sentiment I said-
> 
> He's a self-made wealthy man.


 *Sixty. Million. Dollar. Equivalent. *



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> I didn't address HIS degree of success, vs anyone else's.  I don't give a damn, personally.  It's not a part of my reality, except that now Trump is Commander in Chief, which DOES concern me.  Greatly.
> 
> Neither did I address previous POTUS'.


You directly invoked previous Presidential administrations. In a tangent in which you're trying to discuss how the US Government does nothing for the people. It's not our fault you didn't realize that it wasn't going to play into the hand you thought it was going to.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> That analogy does not, in fact, describe your proposed solution. If you merely wanted to replace the politicians who utterly fail to even try to look out for their constituents, you'd likely see a lot less pushback in this thread.
> 
> What you're advocating is throwing the entire engine out as garbage, and somehow managing to keep using the vehicle it came from while you assemble a new one from scratch.
> 
> ...



I'm making a sincere attempt at keeping the topic and solutions to the problem(s), as simple as possible.
Govt. is extremely convoluted, often contradictory, and certainly versed in shit the average person, myself included, couldn't possibly hope to fully understand.
Exactly like our judicial system, using outdated foreign fucking phrases and words that no American today understands.  
Much similar, both political and judicial systems are deliberately made obtuse, so the average citizen can't follow along, much less catch corruption/ineptitude faster.

I didn't pay much attention to this shit for most of this life.  Most folks I know don't pay attention to most of it throughout their entire lives.
I am part of the problem.  My ignorance and indifference for the first 20 of my voting years, reflects this.

I'm man enough to admit it.

I'm also man enough to stand-up now and open my eyes, and begin trying to fix what I see as 'Wrong' in the system.

Individually, I know I stand no chance of fixing a g-damned thing.  That sentiment is frustrating and self-defeating, if I give-in to it.

You/others may not LIKE my idea(s).  You/others may not LIKE my inference to things (in my effort to keep stuff K.I.S.S.).

Feel free to dive-in and educate me/others like me.  I don't mind learning new things.

To simply discredit my idea(s) and (not yourself, atm), hurl personal insults is not going to accomplish a damned thing of value.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

AnnoyedAnon said:


> Now can this dumpsterfire be closed?


You may ask.
It isn't your OP.
If you have nothing to contribute, kindly refrain from making a post.

You certainly don't have the authority to request my OP be shut-down, w/o better cause.

Thanks for playing.


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## AnnoyedAnon (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> You may ask.
> It isn't your OP.
> If you have nothing to contribute, kindly refrain from making a post.
> 
> ...


I do have the authority to request since you had a spat with another member.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Attaman said:


> When you start with the modern equivalent of sixty million dollar loan, you aren't "self-made" by any stretch of the term. It would take the average household in the United States (using the mean yearly income, with at least two people working full-time) a thousand years to accumulate that as much wealth as Trump was thrust in one. It would take ten of these households a hundred years to do as much. Twenty households, in fifty years (working non-stop from adulthood to retirement), assuming zero expenses, would only just earn as much money as he was given by his father as a "start-up".
> 
> Furthermore, if you're trying to portray Trump - by your own words - as "making himself rich", degree of success _*does*_ matter. Particularly if, again, _*nigh-anyone with the same starting funds and the two braincells necessary to hire a stock investor could get the same results*_. That's not "making himself rich".
> 
> ...


Get back on topic.

Thx


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Jan 15, 2019)

AnnoyedAnon said:


> I do have the authority to request since you had a spat with another member.



If you feel that someone is breaking the rules or attempting to derail the thread, please report those posts.  Do not attempt to take an authoritative stance on a board that has designated staff.

Edit:  And also, let's please keep the thread on track.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

SSJ3Mewtwo said:


> If you feel that someone is breaking the rules or attempting to derail the thread, please report those posts.  Do not attempt to take an authoritative stance on a board that has designated staff.
> 
> Edit:  And also, let's please keep the thread on track.


I have.
I did.
I am trying to remain civil by asking them to stay on topic.
As it is my OP, I am taking an active interest in it.

I wasn't aware that made me out as pretending to be Staff?

Interesting...


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## CrookedCroc (Jan 15, 2019)

Spoiler: Some needed humor 



Silly Americans, your government didn't shut down due to Trump.

IT WAS ME HACKERMAN





All I had to do was run my new super duper virus Hack/USgovernment.exe and then delete System 32 in every Withe House computer.

Btw, don't even try reporting me to the FBI, I'm using incognito mode, I'm fricking invincible


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## Attaman (Jan 15, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Get back on topic.
> 
> Thx


And what pray-tell is that topic?

No, seriously, I'd appreciate you being so kind as to tell us because at this moment it seems to be "I reserve the right to use this thread to vent". Which... I mean, I guess you can do so, but at that point you should make it abundantly clear that there is absolutely _*zero*_ interest in earnest discussion or debate as to the various complex eco-political matters and are instead using this thread, effectively, as a Livejournal blog. We aren't supposed to talk about the wall (despite it being directly relevant to the Shutdown). Earlier you brought up the behavior and actions of politicians currently and previously in office... but now we aren't supposed to talk about either of those things (as supposedly it was off-topic). Despite it being the main thrust of your OP (that nobody in office currently deserves their job). 

Did you want us to use this thread as a news feed for the Shutdown's damage? Updates on the circumstances of the Shutdown, such as McConnell turning down a second attempt by the House to open the government back up?


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 15, 2019)

Attaman said:


> And what pray-tell is that topic?
> 
> No, seriously, I'd appreciate you being so kind as to tell us because at this moment it seems to be "I reserve the right to use this thread to vent". Which... I mean, I guess you can do so, but at that point you should make it abundantly clear that there is absolutely _*zero*_ interest in earnest discussion or debate as to the various complex eco-political matters and are instead using this thread, effectively, as a Livejournal blog. We aren't supposed to talk about the wall (despite it being directly relevant to the Shutdown). Earlier you brought up the behavior and actions of politicians currently and previously in office... but now we aren't supposed to talk about either of those things (as supposedly it was off-topic). Despite it being the main thrust of your OP (that nobody in office currently deserves their job).
> 
> Did you want us to use this thread as a news feed for the Shutdown's damage? Updates on the circumstances of the Shutdown, such as McConnell turning down a second attempt by the House to open the government back up?


g-bye, Attaman.
I don't have the time, patience, or tolerance for people like you.
Go troll somewhere else.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Jan 15, 2019)

The government is not a monolith, nor are any parties, or the "current politicians". Each individual politician is doing something different right now, with many actively trying to end the shutdown. Some are obstructing.

And like or not, *these are the politicians people voted for! *A lot of US citizens wanted representatives that would fight to the death for a wall, no matter the costs. They got exactly what they voted for, and if they don't like it they can lie in the hole they dug for all of us until next election. Maybe they'll choose better, but considering the Republicans re-elected the same knuckleheads from the Obama era shutdowns, I doubt it.


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## David Drake (Jan 16, 2019)

I don't understand how anyone can take that petulant egomaniacal con artist seriously. He's been a joke since as far back as I can remember, and I was born in 86. They need to hurry up and nail him good on something before he wrecks us more than he already has. 

I'm glad that stupid wall is being faught against. I just wish my daughter's benefits weren't being held hostage in the process.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 16, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> First bullet-point:
> *1) Hand over control of the govt. to the military, temporarily, until a new election could be done.*  This shouldn't take a Country like America longer than 1 month to manage.  With the military 'In Charge', no enemy threat would believe us to be wide-open for invasion/attack.
> Simple.



A military junta is not a smart solution to a government shutdown, Shadow.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Jan 16, 2019)

David Drake said:


> I don't understand how anyone can take that petulant egomaniacal con artist seriously.



Would it help if I outright stated it was a sign that someone has shut themselves away from the world at large?  As an example, I have a retired father who will pretty much never side against Trump - even when the "he's not a politician" comments from 2016 are kinda not holding up any more.   Going as far as bringing up the man's six bankruptcies only gets him to say "well he's persistent" (whereas I'd think an investigation of lenders is in order at that point).  I could probably provide more examples given enough time.

I'm trying to imagine rural Americans (I pick on this group because I grew up in a rural area and like it or not, I'm stuck there for another couple years.  I've seen at least a LITTLE of how bad it can be) NOT taking this president seriously and it's not clicking with me.  No, not even after the farming tariff BS or anything like that.




quoting_mungo said:


> Honestly, the biggest, most incomprehensible problem with this whole shutdown rigamarole is the whole "not paying government employees" bullshit, _especially_ since many of them are still expected to come to work as usual. Given the US's history with slavery, you'd think this would be a bigger deal to people than it apparently is.



Honestly, Trump's basically a runaway bulldozer at this point, so him not paying government employees doesn't surprise me.  Heck, I've seen at least one article claiming that starving out the government in an effort to reduce their workforce is an entire REASON for the shutdown on its own (although apparently it's not working out so well as I also heard Trump's designating more people as 'essential' enough to come back and work without pay).

Just because I know the idea of a shutdown being used to starve out the government seems insane, here's the article in question: talkingpointsmemo.com: 'Senior Trump Official' On Shutdown: 'We Do Not Want Most Employees To Return'

(I don't know how reputable Talking Points Memo is, but I followed through to the Daily Caller op-ed they cite and I'll wager most people would suffer conniptions on reading it.)


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Jan 19, 2019)

This is my last post on this topic.
I feel this video sums-up the truth and sentiment covering the vast majority of what my OP was about, and why/how things will not get better.






Thanks to all for participating in the topic.


----------

