# Come back home



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 9, 2021)

Greetings brothers and sisters.
For too long have we been kept in slavery in Egypt. The pharaoh has fed us, but he has also whipped us. But it can be better. We are a people of God, and he wishes for us to be free of bondage.
There is nothing wrong with being a Furry, and the world would tell you otherwise, they despise and hate us, but God wants to use us to teach them. You see, He made you like you are. He loves you.
But the devil has trapped you in sin. He wants the world to stay intolerant and close minded, but God wants brotherhood and unity. The sin currently associated with us is feeding this prejudice, and it is also destroying our souls. It is imperative that you resist. Your life depends on it. It will be hard, and you will be tempted time and time again, but what our King, 
our God promises is so much greater than what we are currently being fed. Once we leave Egypt, we will be fed Manna, and it will be difficult, and we will desire to return, but the bony fish of Egypt is nothing compared to the grapes of the promised land. We have to unite if we wish to survive. 
Here are your guidelines:
Don't live in frustration, every moment of your life is a blessing and ruminating over the past or the future will do you no good. Live in the present.
You are not it, You are not your sin and you father sees that.
Everything God does works for the good in the end. Every torment the devil presents you with is used by God to teach you something, faith grows in uncertainty.
Remember, you are loved and forgiven, but you must learn from your mistakes, they will build you into a better person.
If a situation seems impossible, there is always a way. Pray to God regarding everything, and if it doesn't end up the way you hoped there is a reason somewhere in the bigger picture.
God loves you unconditionally, but he wants you to love him back. He is teaching you so many things through your life, and you can show your love for God by letting him use you for good. Love others and help them, show kindness. That is how you show your love for God, by being a conduit for his love towards others.
Be open for detours. Don't grasp your plans with force but be willing to take new opportunities, God's plans are not your plans.
The enemy will try to deceive you and make you feel worthless, the very fact that he attacks you means that he is trying to prevent you from doing something good.
Don't be like Saul, when something goes wrong don't try to fix it in fear, because you will only make it worse. The LORD is your shield, stay calm and TRUST HIM.
Talk to God out loud and honestly, he knows everything about you and wants you to be honest so that he may work on your problems.
Delight in your weaknesses. Our father works through them. If you are different in some way and others judge you for it, delight in it, for through it our father seeks to teach you not to judge others, but to see that He loves you, and that is all that matters, not the opinion of other people. He made you the way you are, He gave you those quirks, and when you accept them and start loving yourself for who you are, you will see that people who are different from you and who have their own quirks are just as worthy of being loved as you are. 
We are all brothers and sisters. Imagine if we behaved that way.  The things we could accomplish in this world if we saw this. Your father wants a personal relationship with you. 
Know that when you accept Jesus in your life, He will not only save you from sin, but also change you into a version of yourself that is more loving, a version that seeks to help others and 
to make the world a better place.  
Any process that doesn't start with God ends in disappointment.
You are enough.
If you truly wish to be saved, read the word of our father. Take a bible, read it carefully and learn from it, for it is your entrance into His kingdom.
Spread these news with others, every brother and sister has to be saved.
And finally, for those who do not believe, the father will prove his will. Open Youtube, right now.
Your faithful servant, Israel.


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## Mambi (Oct 9, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Greetings brothers and sisters.
> For too long have we been kept in slavery in Egypt. The pharaoh has fed us, but he has also whipped us. But it can be better. We are a people of God, and he wishes for us to be free of bondage.
> There is nothing wrong with being a Furry, and the world would tell you otherwise, they despise and hate us, but God wants to use us to teach them. You see, He made you like you are. He loves you.
> But the devil has trapped you in sin. He wants the world to stay intolerant and close minded, but God wants brotherhood and unity. The sin currently associated with us is feeding this prejudice, and it is also destroying our souls. It is imperative that you resist. Your life depends on it. It will be hard, and you will be tempted time and time again, but what our King,
> ...


Since you insist in a sermon, let me show you what it feels like, small scale. 

If your God truly is just, they won't care that I don't follow them as long as I am a decent person. 
If they DO insist that I must praise them constantly regardless of my acts, then they are not worth my worship. 

Your biblical God refused to forgive people unless we tortured his son. That was his underlying condition. Suffering had to be done to please him. That is not the action of a good loving soul, that is the actions of a sadist. If you disagree, simply explain WHAT specifically was about Jesus suffering that made God so happy he forgave everyone, and refused to do so unless he saw the screaming for himself. 

Actions speak better than words, and I choose to just be a good person because I want to, not because I feel the need to suck to up a narcissist. 

The biblical God is the perfect PET owner, not a loving diety. He wanted nothing from humans other than to mindlessly love him, not get into trouble, and stay ignorant. The moment we got intelligent, he got scared and kicked us out. Exactly the same thing you'd do to your dog...as long as he's happy and fed and breeds a little maybe you're good as you have no dreams or goals for your dog. But if he got smart and started talking about college degrees and exploring the world and questioning everything you say, you'd get nervous fast. Same deal with God...and to prove it, tell me the future of humanity WITHOUT the Adam and Eve ending with them eating the fruit of knowledge. 1000 years later...still naked in a garden singing mindless praises to our master, no development at all. (no challenges to overcome so no need)

Now we're done, please don't preach your religion here again...we know where the buildings are if we want to learn more on our own.


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## Bababooey (Oct 9, 2021)

Why did Flamingo like this post?
This forum is no place for this crap.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 9, 2021)

Can't tell if Abrahamic bot Or actual belief.
My people did leave Egypt. Got lost. Wandered to 40years in the dunes. I think I'll stay put in Egypt, personally, we're I at least have a good living,food, and a great gig working on government projects.


Chomby said:


> Why did Flamingo like this post?
> This forum is no place for this crap.


_Well, it is making for some..."lively" discussion. _


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## Bababooey (Oct 9, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> _Well, it is making for some..."lively" discussion. _


Lively like a rabies-ridden animal writhing and seizing before it dies.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 9, 2021)

Chomby said:


> Lively like a rabies-ridden animal writhing and seizing before it dies.


very exciting while it lasts ! Unpredictable even


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## Khafra (Oct 9, 2021)

Chomby said:


> Why did Flamingo like this post?
> This forum is no place for this crap.


I, for one, welcome the utterly random topics and unusual threads.
Obviously he's trying to use metaphors from biblical stories about something here, but the inner workings of his mind are a true enigma.
Much more interesting than the nth forum game about counting or a thread about petting people/discussing one's sona.


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## Pomorek (Oct 9, 2021)

_"Open Youtube, right now"_ ... Your God wouldn't like what's there, I wager! *lmao*


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## Khafra (Oct 9, 2021)

Pomorek said:


> _"Open Youtube, right now"_ ... Your God wouldn't like what's there, I wager! *lmao*


I must have glanced over this bit. I had "Mary on a Cross" by Ghost playing on my youtube tab. Truly divine work!


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## TyraWadman (Oct 9, 2021)

I was kinda okay with the relevant overcoming hardships and growing as a person...

Then it just got weird.

Not religious but you do you!


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## Pomorek (Oct 9, 2021)

Khafra said:


> I must have glanced over this bit. I had "Mary on a Cross" by Ghost playing on my youtube tab. Truly divine work!


Likewise, I had Behemoth's "Ov Fire and the Void" on. Strong stuff.


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## Flamingo (Oct 9, 2021)

Chomby said:


> Why did Flamingo like this post?
> This forum is no place for this crap.


Because I'm eagerly awaiting people to get needlessly upset when you could just move on. There's no rule violation in posting what they posted, but I'm sure there will be one in the responses.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Oct 9, 2021)

Yo, Flamingo. I don't think I've seen you in a bit. What have you been doing this whole time?


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## Flamingo (Oct 9, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> Can't tell if Abrahamic bot Or actual belief.


Legitimately unsure myself.


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## Foxridley (Oct 9, 2021)

I don't get why people post things like this. I mean, I get that they want to steer people on a path toward God. But, a non-religious person isn't going to be convinced by some flowery language, the likes of which they've probably heard a hundred times already. The people likely to find a monologue like this moving are the ones who are already in that religion and the speaker is (almost literally) preaching to the choir.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 9, 2021)

Flamingo said:


> Legitimately unsure myself.


They used to be super popular about 10 years ago, but I don't know. Usually those a bit better authored.

I do have to give praise too. Its not actually going out and damning anyone directly, and seems to focus on the plusses.
Amicable ones even: make the world better, you are valuable and worth it, god loves you etc etc...
I'm actually sort of impressed.


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## Bababooey (Oct 9, 2021)

Flamingo said:


> Because I'm eagerly awaiting people to get needlessly upset when you could just move on. There's no rule violation in posting what they posted, but I'm sure there will be one in the responses.


Same reason political discussion was banned so the same should apply for religious discussion. It's just common sense at this point.


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## Fcomega121 (Oct 9, 2021)

Chomby said:


> This forum is no place for this crap.





Chomby said:


> Same reason political discussion was banned so the same should apply for religious discussion. It's just common sense at this point.


this ^^^


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## Flamingo (Oct 9, 2021)

When / if its ever a rule, I'll enforce it.

It currently is not.


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## Bababooey (Oct 9, 2021)

Considering the amount of lgbt+ folks in the fandom that have dealt with religious persecution in their lives, religious stuff like this is very triggering and that should really be taken into consideration.


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## Flamingo (Oct 9, 2021)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> Yo, Flamingo. I don't think I've seen you in a bit. What have you been doing this whole time?


I've been here!


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## Flamingo (Oct 9, 2021)

Chomby said:


> Considering the amount of lgbt+ folks in the fandom that have dealt with religious persecution in their lives, religious stuff like this is very triggering and that should really be taken into consideration.


Feel free to recommend it to the appropriate decision makers.









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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 9, 2021)

Foxridley said:


> I don't get why people post things like this. I mean, I get that they want to steer people on a path toward God. But, a non-religious person isn't going to be convinced by some flower language, the likes of which they've probably heard a hundred times already. The people likely to find a monologue like this moving are the ones who are already in that religion and the speaker is (almost literally) preaching to the choir.


Its part of being a good steward of a number of religions, especially abrahamic ones who are not only commanded to, but require everyone to hear (even if they do not accept it) before their prophecies can be fulfilled. abrahamic ones don't really conjoin evangelism with works.

I mean, I get why they are doing it. I don't see the utility here as many of us already made up our minds about what we believe, but I get it.



Chomby said:


> Considering the amount of lgbt+ folks in the fandom that have dealt with religious persecution in their lives, religious stuff like this is very triggering and that should really be taken into consideration.


I have had plenty of people look down their nose at my relationship preferences, no religion required! Some people are just butts, and some try and justify it with an ideology, but at the end of the day its really just because they were butts to start with.


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## Foxridley (Oct 9, 2021)

Flamingo said:


> When / if its ever a rule, I'll enforce it.
> 
> It currently is not.


Though, I do wonder if this thread would be a better fit in the "off-topic" section.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Oct 9, 2021)

God is dead, pal...

Oh, nope. It's more like... God have never ever existed.

Well, more precisely, god ain't how we believe them to be.

Just live your life as your soul tells you. The god--if they really are a god--would have already knew whatever you'll be doing and however you'd be. God should have everything under control and your existence and effect in this universe is not gonna stray an inch from it.
If a god can 'be disappointed', then they ain't a god. It'd be more like.. an overseeing mortal. And no one serves a mortal without actual benefits, so do I.

And if god really loves every single entity in this universe, not a single entity should suffer. (Hunt and kill... Make it happen or not, either end of prey or hunter shall suffer, for example)
If you can provide any workarounds that may justify how the reality is... It's either you're wrong or you're right but then the god is a next level sadist.

Essence is that we'll never understand the god, so why waste time there while we got tons of time to spend on elsewhere of reality? Chase your aim, fend yourself not to be hunted. We're living in a concrete jungle where hunting is usually not physical. Survive!--Until the world tell you to fade.

Anyways, live free in this world, as yourselves, folks!

P.s. Did you turn your computer off before you head outdoors? Go check that!

P.p.s. Special thanks to OP for providing this interesting subject, I had fun for a while UwU


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 9, 2021)

I was brought up by Christian parents, but I've become an atheist as a kid, I always subscribed to science, and I regularly debated religious people on Youtube. However, ever since I became a furry, I hated myself for it, and it was followed by a... related addiction which consumed me entirely, I couldn't stop thinking about it. This went on for years and years, and I grew more and more depressed. One night, I thought I wouldn't live till morning, and in an act of desperation I prayed to God. I then turned on Youtube and there was a video, unrelated to anything I've watched before, it had 2k views and was called "Help is on the way". I clicked on it and in it was a woman speaking about how God can see my struggles, and that he will help me. After that I started watching sermons by pastor Steven Furtick regularly, sometimes I would binge watch them the entire day, and in them he talked about so many things related to my problems. Amongst other things he talked about how people shouldn't feel worth less because they're different (Which I thought about myself) Because the opinions of other people do not matter, but God's does, and he created each and every one of us the way we are, and by realizing this we can accept other people's differences. Now I accept myself for who I am and I am very close to getting rid of this addiction. Thank you for your time.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 9, 2021)

Holy batman, robbin.
Have you considered learning what the carriage return button does?

If you hate yourself for being a furry then why are you here?


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## ben909 (Oct 9, 2021)

... heard the thread makers second comment before a while ago on DA, ... honestly not sure what happened to then


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## Connor J. Coyote (Oct 9, 2021)

Mambi said:


> -snip-


@Mambi I can't tell who's preachings here are worse.... yours, or the OP.... but in any case - faith is a matter of personal beliefs and value systems... and (often times) - no one else can sway that belief system.... as it's the bedrock and the foundation - of their very lives.


Stray Cat Terry said:


> God is dead, pal...
> Just live your life as your soul tells you.


@Stray Cat Terry For many of us.... our souls tells us there is a God... period.
As it is He - who has created us..... and not we ourselves.


Stray Cat Terry said:


> Essence is that we'll never understand the god, so why waste time there while we got tons of time to spend on elsewhere of reality?


Because for some of us.... we believe that we will join that other world with Him, someday..... and - for many of us- our faith dictates our lives, our opinions, our beliefs, our value systems, and indeed - our activities.... which often includes worship of said God, that many of us believe - will indeed redeem us in the end. 


Chomby said:


> Same reason political discussion was banned so the same should apply for religious discussion. It's just common sense at this point.


@Chomby For some of us - our religious views are "part and parcel" of who we are... not only as people, but also as Furries..... and thus, expunging this type of topic (from any future discussions) could be viewed as slightly discriminatory, (some could argue)..... as those of us (who are of faith) - will then be forced to be silent on certain issues that are important to us..... which in turn - could have a "chilling effect" future speeches and dialogues, simply because some may find the topic's that we may want to cover - uncomfortable.

That said - it could be argued that Fandom activites shouldn't be focused on these things anyways... and so - there's two sides to this issue, I see... and so, perhaps - a middle ground might be a good idea.


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## KimberVaile (Oct 9, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I was brought up by Christian parents, but I've become an atheist as a kid, I always subscribed to science, and I regularly debated religious people on Youtube. However, ever since I became a furry, I hated myself for it, and it was followed by a... related addiction which consumed me entirely, I couldn't stop thinking about it. This went on for years and years, and I grew more and more depressed. One night, I thought I wouldn't live till morning, and in an act of desperation I prayed to God. I then turned on Youtube and there was a video, unrelated to anything I've watched before, it had 2k views and was called "Help is on the way". I clicked on it and in it was a woman speaking about how God can see my struggles, and that he will help me. After that I started watching sermons by pastor Steven Furtick regularly, sometimes I would binge watch them the entire day, and in them he talked about so many things related to my problems. Amongst other things he talked about how people shouldn't feel worth less because they're different (Which I thought about myself) Because the opinions of other people do not matter, but God's does, and he created each and every one of us the way we are, and by realizing this we can accept other people's differences. Now I accept myself for who I am and I am very close to getting rid of this addiction. Thank you for your time.


I don't personally feel this account is legitimate, seems like a sort of bot, with the specific mention of a YouTube pastor of a megachruch. Not to mention, the call to action near the end, urging people to check Youtube for a sort of religious intervention.
However, with that aside, on the slim chance you aren't a bot, I do want to say, I am glad you found something in your life that you are passionate about, and that devotion to a religion has filled your life with purpose. I think even with how misguided it may potentially be, that is very thoughtful of you to try and do what you think is for the betterment of others. Your heart is in the right place, and I respect that. The least that can be said is that you try and think of others. Not sure what you meant by addiction though. Being a furry be bible standards should be pretty harmless I imagine.

Personally, was raised a Christian, but it never stuck for me. Just agnostic now. I don't know what's going to happen after death and I tend not to think about it. Regardless, I wish you the best.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Oct 9, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> with the specific mention of a YouTube pastor of a megachruch


....I took too long typing, as I was just about to mention something of this nature having looked up the man in question.

I think I was hung up on trying to find a Bible verse about being cautious in listening to others too deeply.  (Best I got was somewhere in Matthew, as looking into things too deeply is one MAJOR plank in my own eye.)


I must admit, Christianity never stuck for me either.  Mainly because I suspect there's been a few... recent edits (recent as in "the past century") made with the express purpose of justifying hate, contrary to anything I've ever heard of God's attitude.




KimberVaile said:


> Being a furry be bible standards should be pretty harmless I imagine.


We're accused a lot of a particular one of the seven deadlies, so that was my guess to the "related addiction".


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## KimberVaile (Oct 9, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> ....I took too long typing, as I was just about to mention something of this nature having looked up the man in question.
> 
> I think I was hung up on trying to find a Bible verse about being cautious in listening to others too deeply.  (Best I got was somewhere in Matthew, as looking into things too deeply is one MAJOR plank in my own eye.)
> 
> ...


My bad. I felt it was of some significance that the guy that was name dropped is a 2 mil sub Youtuber. Which, would make it at least likely it is some sorta bot.

I think that's understandable. I have had my disagreement about Christianity, and the bible in particular. I have had endure the bad side of Christianity, specifically how it can be used to create a socially acceptable hate for certain people, if you will. However, on the same token, I do not want to condemn an entire religion, for my own disagreements. There have been many kind Christians in my life, so I would like to make an effort to be fair and tolerant. I can acknowledge for every asshole Christian there are very genuinely kind ones as well.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 9, 2021)

I now want to find Thalmor and beat them for stopping the worship of Talos.






Aileana's Days Without Sarcasm: 0
Oh, it was a bot?  Do I get my day back?


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## TyraWadman (Oct 9, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I now want to find Thalmor and beat them for stopping the worship of Talos.
> 
> 
> Aileana's Days Without Sarcasm: 0
> Oh, it was a bot?  Do I get my day back?



Talos hates elves???
You want to worship an elf-hater???? 
_*narrows eyes in Dark Elf*_


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Oct 9, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I now want to find Thalmor and beat them for stopping the worship of Talos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BASEDCLOAK?


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 9, 2021)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> BASEDCLOAK?


Talos guide me!


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## Punji (Oct 9, 2021)

Mambi said:


> Now we're done, please don't preach your religion here again...we know where the buildings are if we want to learn more on our own.


Firstly, while I don't feel this thread is terribly appropriate here, it's very important to respect others' religious beliefs and ideal. Calling a religion's deity "sadistic," a "narcissist," and a "pet owner" is obviously acting in very bad faith. (Pun intended? You decide.) There are a lot of things that can be said about Wiccans and it would be just as pointless to try to offend you over them. No one has to agree on any beliefs but you absolutely ought to respect them, even if you don't believe them yourself.

As for the rest, I'll do the more appropriate thing than the OP and put my more theological content behind a spoiler.



Spoiler: Theology



There is a reason why Jesus was born to die on a cross. The long and short of it is that God and humanity/the Jews were in a series of covenants in which humanity kept repeatedly fucking it up. Covenants in these ancient times often went along the lines of "many great things be upon us both if should this pact be held" and "break this covenant and I'll break your bones" so this is truly nothing out of the ordinary. God Himself said that if He were to break his covenant with Abraham he should be destroyed, split down the half. What this means however is that humanity repeatedly broke every single covenant God had made with them while God has kept every one of his and something had to happen. No point in simply making a new covenant every single time the last one is broken. Humanity had to suffer for their failures.

Contrary to your statements however, God is merciful and loving and had no intentions of destroying His creations. (Again?  God made the covenant with humanity that never again would He destroy them with water. There's debate on that but that's for another place). If God was a sadistic narcissist, why would he kill only Himself? Jesus is God in human form, created for the purpose of suffering in humanity's place. Rather than cause His creation to suffer for their continued failures, God created one final covenant. By acting as a human archetype, God effectively cheesed the rules by sacrificing Himself to fulfill the covenant and in doing so, spared humanity/the Jews the fate they had brought upon themselves. Jesus' life and death was an act of great mercy, not harm. An older sibling taking the hit to protect the younger one. As this covenant came to completion through the "destruction" of "humanity" (the fully-human archetype), God's final covenant was allowed to follow, in which humanity must only live their lives as part of creation and in return God grants them eternal mercy and the forgiveness of all sin.

As I understand things anyway. Hopefully that helps at all. And for the record, this is more or less all from what I have been taught in my university theology courses, so please don't say the beliefs are uneducated or ignorant. That's just rude and unjustly disrespectful.


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## Mambi (Oct 9, 2021)

Punji said:


> Firstly, while I don't feel this thread is terribly appropriate here, it's very important to respect others' religious beliefs and ideal. Calling a religion's deity "sadistic," a "narcissist," and a "pet owner" is obviously acting in very bad faith. (Pun intended? You decide.) There are a lot of things that can be said about Wiccans and it would be just as pointless to try to offend you over them. No one has to agree on any beliefs but you absolutely ought to respect them, even if you don't believe them yourself.



Yes...it was worded badly. _<nods>_ I purposely worded that to offend them, to show them what it feels like to be preached at with beliefs that may not agree with their own. 

My purpose was simply to challenge their post's rigid beliefs, and frankly to tell them off a little. There was never a "debate" offered, so I never bothered to give one, nor do I have any interest in it. I was simply making an annoying preacher think a bit before they go away. 

Funny though, I see this on street corners and in public parks all the time in the summer. Preachers and church groups will constantly set up speakers and broadcast "public faith services" annoying everyone around them...but to them they are just "celebrating". BUT if someone puts up a speaker in the same spot talking about a faith that is NOT theirs, even if they are doing the same thing (Hindu, Muslim, Pagan, etc), they will be the first ones to complain about the "disturbing presence in the park". 

So I have little time for double-standards in people like the OP. I'm sure in their mind they're just "having a chat" or "helping out a troubled group" or whatever their self-justified reason to preach. But they will never see it as annoying or insulting, as they're just spreading a "good healthy message" and what's the harm in that, right? <_eye roll> _They need to see that it's no different than if we went to their website and started randomly posting page-long sermons talking about the social benefits of fursuit conventions and furry lifestyles as a spiritual salvation.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 9, 2021)

It's a flamer writing a flame thread.  Just another Milo wannabe.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Oct 9, 2021)

Mambi said:


> page-long sermons talking about the social benefits of fursuit conventions and furry lifestyles as a spiritual salvation


I know I'm snipping a piece out of context... I kinda wanna see someone try this.  Just once.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 9, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> That is how you show your love for God, by being a conduit for his love towards others.



I was a conduit for love once.




But I'm feeling MUCH better now.


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## Foxridley (Oct 9, 2021)

Mambi said:


> Yes...it was worded badly. _<nods>_ I purposely worded that to offend them, to show them what it feels like to be preached at with beliefs that may not agree with their own.
> 
> My purpose was simply to challenge their post's rigid beliefs, and frankly to tell them off a little. There was never a "debate" offered, so I never bothered to give one, nor do I have any interest in it. I was simply making an annoying preacher think a bit before they go away.
> 
> ...


While I often find such proselytizing annoying, and I'm not fond of the Abrahamic God myself, I appreciate that this person is acting in good faith (no pun intended). I guess it's more about not adding fuel to the fire.



Firuthi Dragovic said:


> I know I'm snipping a piece out of context... I kinda wanna see someone try this.  Just once.


TOP TEN REASONS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A FURSONA!



Minerva_Minx said:


> It's a flamer writing a flame thread.  Just another Milo wannabe.


Which Milo? I feel like there have been at least three people named Milo who have come up in the fandom.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 9, 2021)

yiannopoulos


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## LameFox (Oct 10, 2021)

Sorry but I categorically refuse to humour any deity what shows its will via youtube.


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## Parabellum3 (Oct 10, 2021)

The only God I’ll ever believe in is her, because she’s a good girl.


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## Pomorek (Oct 10, 2021)

LameFox said:


> Sorry but I categorically refuse to humour any deity what shows its will via youtube.


Oh I don't know, that could be pretty fun, provided it's not treated too seriously of course! 

_"Our Father who art in YouTube,
Hallowed be thy channel,
Thy submissions come,
Thy will be done,
Online as it is IRL.
Give us this day our daily views,
And forgive us our hating,
As we forgive those who hate against us;
And lead us not into shitposting,
But deliver us from ads,
For thine are the comments,
The likes and the subs,
For ever and ever. 
[Publish]"_


----------



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 10, 2021)

Mambi said:


> Since you insist in a sermon, let me show you what it feels like, small scale.
> 
> If your God truly is just, they won't care that I don't follow them as long as I am a decent person.
> If they DO insist that I must praise them constantly regardless of my acts, then they are not worth my worship.
> ...


It is written that on the final day those who were righteous in life, be they Christian or not, will be called by Jesus. So no, God is not evil. The reason he sent his son to suffer for our sins is because God is light, and he cannot be in the presence of darkness, so his son takes away our sin so that we may be in his presence. God created us so that we may experience love, yet we chose greed. 


Christine Vulpes said:


> Holy batman, robbin.
> Have you considered learning what the carriage return button does?
> 
> If you hate yourself for being a furry then why are you here?


I do not hate myself, I did for a long time, but after I found God I embraced myself.


----------



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 10, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> ....I took too long typing, as I was just about to mention something of this nature having looked up the man in question.
> 
> I think I was hung up on trying to find a Bible verse about being cautious in listening to others too deeply.  (Best I got was somewhere in Matthew, as looking into things too deeply is one MAJOR plank in my own eye.)
> 
> ...


The reason people associate Christianity with intolerance is because it is our human nature to judge others, and many Christians use God as a means of justifying intolerance. This is why there were crusades, the inquisition, because people assume that they can confine God to their particular worldview. They are scared of difference, so God must hate different. But no, Jesus came into this world in order to save us, he spread the message of love, not hate.


----------



## the sleepiest kitty (Oct 10, 2021)

I appreciate your great effort, but most folks here won't take you very seriously. They're awesome people though, even if they sin. And I love them to pieces. You're pretty cool for at least trying though and loving your own people like that. The Hebrews really didn't deserve slavery in Egypt, and Jewish people didn't need the holocaust. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself. :[


----------



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 10, 2021)

the sleepiest kitty said:


> I appreciate your great effort, but most folks here won't take you very seriously. They're awesome people though, even if they sin. And I love them to pieces. You're pretty cool for at least trying though and loving your own people like that. The Hebrews really didn't deserve slavery in Egypt, and Jewish people didn't need the holocaust. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself. :[


There are those here who feel alienated by society and suffer greatly because of it. Yes, most folk won't, but there are those here who believe in God and who think that a part of their God-given personality will lead them to hell. I am talking from personal experience.


----------



## the sleepiest kitty (Oct 10, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> There are those here who feel alienated by society and suffer greatly because of it. Yes, most folk won't, but there are those here who believe in God and who think that a part of their God-given personality will lead them to hell. I am talking from personal experience.


You're awesome for that, y'know


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## Mambi (Oct 10, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> It is written that on the final day those who were righteous in life, be they Christian or not, will be called by Jesus. So no, God is not evil. The reason he sent his son to suffer for our sins is because God is light, and he cannot be in the presence of darkness, so his son takes away our sin so that we may be in his presence. God created us so that we may experience love, yet we chose greed.



It is *also *written that to eat shellfish is an abomination and you should be put to death for it, as well as a myriad of ways and reasons to kill your children. I'm not asking you to *quote*, I'm asking you to *think*, but it seems that you prefer to give speeches that say nothing, while not even addressing the fact that you were asked something.

For example, I asked what was it about Jesus's suffering that made God happy enough to forgive. You replied "God is light and Jesus takes away darkness so God can stand to be around us" basically, but not one single word of that actually answers the question in any form though; you just sidestepped the question totally. Watching Jesus suffer doesn't take away evil, it's only re-enforces it. Evil did not go away in humans because we starved a guy for a few days because "evil" is not an energy force that needs balancing or relocation (the purist idea of "scapegoatism" BTW, the same concept that paganisms and Jesus is based upon if you're curious).

God *still *is the one that chooses the conditions for "forgiveness", and he _chose _to have that condition be watching his son suffer...completely on his own terms. The humans that arrive are still as corrupt as they always were and you know it. But Jesus suffered so God's happy, a personal choice on his part..*not forced upon him. *You're not actually saying anything, just sprouting empty platitudes. Sadly this is so typical of preachers like yourself it's not even funny.

So for fun and to prove you're worth even having a conversation about this with, I'll ask one again to you...what specifically was about it that made God happy enough to forgive everyone? _Can _you actually answer a simple fundamental question about your own belief system? If not, knock it off please, we're not buying what you're selling.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Oct 10, 2021)

Zarathustran thought and religious ideals.  No one can explain it, as 4000 years of updates had occured to allow a concept of good and evil,while also setting baseline for tolerance of less than ideal means of maintaining power, such as divine providence.


----------



## Firuthi Dragovic (Oct 10, 2021)

Mambi said:


> It is *also *written that to eat shellfish is an abomination and you should be put to death for it


*sigh* I know I'm going out of context again, but some retorts just irk me that much.

The reason for the shellfish ban in the Bible was because it was about as much as they could do at the time for food safety.  Basically, they thought shellfish couldn't get all the impurities out of the dirt they took in and left a bunch of metal in there.  Pork has a similar problem.

The modern equivalent is eating seafood from a Superfund site.

Even then, there was some point in the gospels that the restriction was removed.  One source tells me it's somewhere in the Gospel of Mark, I think they said Mark 7:14-15 but I'll have to check if there's other phrases that fit.

I admit I took about 30 seconds to see why the ban was even in place, and if you really want something more in-depth then go ahead and ask, but some of those rules have relevance and in an area with limited food preservation capability the shellfish one can still matter.  Doesn't that stuff spoil REALLY fast?  (And I dunno how much they knew about microbes back then but if they didn't, a case of food poisoning could easily be seen as God's wrath.)


----------



## Mambi (Oct 10, 2021)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> *sigh* I know I'm going out of context again, but some retorts just irk me that much.
> 
> The reason for the shellfish ban in the Bible was because it was about as much as they could do at the time for food safety.  Basically, they thought shellfish couldn't get all the impurities out of the dirt they took in and left a bunch of metal in there.  Pork has a similar problem.
> 
> ...



Of course, I agree 100% you're right, it was metaphoric to help people.
But if the OP's gonna say "the book says <x> therefore it is the word of the Lord", then I'm saying the same thing for the same reasons...or we both agree the book's words aren't meant to be literal. <_giggle_>


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Oct 10, 2021)

Religion, like politics, if full of traps and holes - and people willing to make full use of them for their own means.

Let's all agree the Flying Spaghetti Monster is possibly the one true God, becauseno one really knows and fear in the masses for financial and political power is where it all leads.  Ramen.


----------



## TyraWadman (Oct 10, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> Religion, like politics, if full of traps and holes - and people willing to make full use of them for their own means.
> 
> Let's all agree the Flying Spaghetti Monster is possibly the one true God, becauseno one really knows and fear in the masses for financial and political power is where it all leads.  Ramen.


Spaghetti and Ramen are disgusting.
Now quit trying to shove your bayleafs down our throats!


----------



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 10, 2021)

Mambi said:


> It is *also *written that to eat shellfish is an abomination and you should be put to death for it, as well as a myriad of ways and reasons to kill your children. I'm not asking you to *quote*, I'm asking you to *think*, but it seems that you prefer to give speeches that say nothing, while not even addressing the fact that you were asked something.
> 
> For example, I asked what was it about Jesus's suffering that made God happy enough to forgive. You replied "God is light and Jesus takes away darkness so God can stand to be around us" basically, but not one single word of that actually answers the question in any form though; you just sidestepped the question totally. Watching Jesus suffer doesn't take away evil, it's only re-enforces it. Evil did not go away in humans because we starved a guy for a few days because "evil" is not an energy force that needs balancing or relocation (the purist idea of "scapegoatism" BTW, the same concept that paganisms and Jesus is based upon if you're curious).
> 
> ...


Without darkness, light cannot shine. When God created Adam and Eve, He already knew that they would eat the forbidden fruit, and that it would result in our existence. It introduced sin, but it also made us stop loving God unconditionally, and God wanted us to get to love Him on our own. Because of His love, He gave us free will, to do as we please. What God wants is true love, not a mindless, forced "love". And because there is darkness, and because you have free will, in your life you get a choice. Will I do good, or will I do evil? Will I walk past homeless people every day when I go to work from my villa, or will I buy my brother a blanket so that he does not freeze in winter? Truly accepting Jesus in your life purifies you, not only does He save you, but He changes you, and you become an instrument in sharing the love of God to other people. Most people accept Jesus as their savior, but that is where they stop. The reason why Jesus had to suffer for our sins is so that we do not have to. He is fully God and fully man, which means that he can take on the burden of our sins, the darkness which God cannot stand. God hates sin, and in His eyes the only way to forgive us for it was through sacrifice, to show that we repent. The Jews showed that they repent through sacrificing something valuable, animals. But this was not enough, so He sent His only son as a sacrifice in our name, so that those who accept His suffering are forgiven of their sins.


----------



## Mambi (Oct 10, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Without darkness, light cannot shine. When God created Adam and Eve, He already knew that they would eat the forbidden fruit, and that it would result in our existence. It introduced sin, but it also made us stop loving God unconditionally, and God wanted us to get to love Him on our own. Because of His love, He gave us free will, to do as we please. What God wants is true love, not a mindless, forced "love". And because there is darkness, and because you have free will, in your life you get a choice. Will I do good, or will I do evil? Will I walk past homeless people every day when I go to work from my villa, or will I buy my brother a blanket so that he does not freeze in winter? Truly accepting Jesus in your life purifies you, not only does He save you, but He changes you, and you become an instrument in sharing the love of God to other people. Most people accept Jesus as their savior, but that is where they stop. The reason why Jesus had to suffer for our sins is so that we do not have to. He is fully God and fully man, which means that he can take on the burden of our sins, the darkness which God cannot stand. God hates sin, and in His eyes the only way to forgive us for it was through sacrifice, to show that we repent. The Jews showed that they repent through sacrificing something valuable, animals. But this was not enough, so He sent His only son as a sacrifice in our name, so that those who accept His suffering are forgiven of their sins.



Aaaaaaaand, we're done, instantly back to a word salad without the slightest thought or meaning behind it. _*That's*_ your answer to a simple question? Fair enough, and thank you for confirming we *won't* be able to have a rational conversation, so I promise I won't waste any more time trying to. 

_<the cat bows deeply, and with glowing eyes, opens a shimmer portal and dives into it disappearing, leaving you alone in an empty room with your prepared speeches> _


----------



## Shyy (Oct 10, 2021)

lenago said:


> View attachment 120407
> Alright you robot freak im ready for ya soon!....
> 
> *hides behind some rocks*





IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Without darkness, light cannot shine. When God created Adam and Eve, He already knew that they would eat the forbidden fruit, and that it would result in our existence. It introduced sin, but it also made us stop loving God unconditionally, and God wanted us to get to love Him on our own. Because of His love, He gave us free will, to do as we please. What God wants is true love, not a mindless, forced "love". And because there is darkness, and because you have free will, in your life you get a choice. Will I do good, or will I do evil? Will I walk past homeless people every day when I go to work from my villa, or will I buy my brother a blanket so that he does not freeze in winter? Truly accepting Jesus in your life purifies you, not only does He save you, but He changes you, and you become an instrument in sharing the love of God to other people. Most people accept Jesus as their savior, but that is where they stop. The reason why Jesus had to suffer for our sins is so that we do not have to. He is fully God and fully man, which means that he can take on the burden of our sins, the darkness which God cannot stand. God hates sin, and in His eyes the only way to forgive us for it was through sacrifice, to show that we repent. The Jews showed that they repent through sacrificing something valuable, animals. But this was not enough, so He sent His only son as a sacrifice in our name, so that those who accept His suffering are forgiven of their sins.


*click* 1st on my ignore list.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Without darkness, light cannot shine. When God created Adam and Eve, He already knew that they would eat the forbidden fruit, and that it would result in our existence. It introduced sin, but it also made us stop loving God unconditionally, and God wanted us to get to love Him on our own. Because of His love, He gave us free will, to do as we please. What God wants is true love, not a mindless, forced "love". And because there is darkness, and because you have free will, in your life you get a choice. Will I do good, or will I do evil? Will I walk past homeless people every day when I go to work from my villa, or will I buy my brother a blanket so that he does not freeze in winter? Truly accepting Jesus in your life purifies you, not only does He save you, but He changes you, and you become an instrument in sharing the love of God to other people. Most people accept Jesus as their savior, but that is where they stop. The reason why Jesus had to suffer for our sins is so that we do not have to. He is fully God and fully man, which means that he can take on the burden of our sins, the darkness which God cannot stand. God hates sin, and in His eyes the only way to forgive us for it was through sacrifice, to show that we repent. The Jews showed that they repent through sacrificing something valuable, animals. But this was not enough, so He sent His only son as a sacrifice in our name, so that those who accept His suffering are forgiven of their sins.


@IsraelWhiteFox A lot of people agree with you there, on those points.... but, the problem I see when things get "too heavy" in the proselytizing arena - (whenever some people start talking about these things) - is that : those who may be "open" to becoming "believers" (as we'll label it) - may eventually start to tune out the messages, that many are trying to convey.... simply because it sounds to "firey-brand" rhetorical, and less about common ground outreach - (if you feel me). ☺

And so - (it could be argued) that we could be undermining some of these efforts (ourselves) a lot of times; simply because we may push too hard, too fast... on these topics..... which in turn, allows (anti-religious critics) to then seize on - and use it as a springboard for further derogatory commentary, (towards the Creator's presence in our lives).

And thus, to get some out there (who wish to proselytize on these things) to "dial down" their rhetoric a bit... (could be viewed) as sometimes more beneficial in the end - to what many of us are trying to accomplish.

(Just my thoughts).


----------



## Mambi (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Without darkness, light cannot shine. When God created Adam and Eve, He already knew that they would eat the forbidden fruit, and that it would result in our existence. It introduced sin, but it also made us stop loving God unconditionally, and God wanted us to get to love Him on our own. Because of His love, He gave us free will, to do as we please. What God wants is true love, not a mindless, forced "love". And because there is darkness, and because you have free will, in your life you get a choice. Will I do good, or will I do evil? Will I walk past homeless people every day when I go to work from my villa, or will I buy my brother a blanket so that he does not freeze in winter? Truly accepting Jesus in your life purifies you, not only does He save you, but He changes you, and you become an instrument in sharing the love of God to other people. Most people accept Jesus as their savior, but that is where they stop. The reason why Jesus had to suffer for our sins is so that we do not have to. He is fully God and fully man, which means that he can take on the burden of our sins, the darkness which God cannot stand. God hates sin, and in His eyes the only way to forgive us for it was through sacrifice, to show that we repent. The Jews showed that they repent through sacrificing something valuable, animals. But this was not enough, so He sent His only son as a sacrifice in our name, so that those who accept His suffering are forgiven of their sins.



<_sigh_> Look, I'm bored this morning, so let me show you how to answer the question using actual words and not just rambles ,ok? Here's a simple example of what I am asking you with a metaphor, and I hope the message is clear. If you can't understand metaphors due to any unknown underlying conditions, I apologize in advance.

Pretend that I go to my son with a running chainsaw and tell him that I have to kill the town that annoyed me so that I can have new tires for my van. He could choose to beg for the town's lives by choosing to sacrifice himself on their behalf for me, taking on the punishments for the people voluntarily. I could refuse or accept that sacrifice on their behalf, and let's say I accept that. I sacrifice my beloved son with the chainsaw, and forgive the town, screaming out "*It's ok everyone*, he has died for you! I will come for my tires soon, and all that accept my son's death as noble and just will be welcomed lovingly in my presence! May his sacrifice be not in vain!!!"

Was his sacrifice noble in that scenario to save the town? Absolutely yes, my "son" should be honoured for it as it was very courageous.
Was the town really saved? Yes, I forgave their sins, so the sacrifice was for a good longterm cause, as the town was saved for generations to come.
Is everyone better off? Absolutely, those that accept my son's death in their hearts will be saved and forgiven and welcomed to me, right?
Should my son be cherished in this scenario? Yes, what a martyr! All praise his name as he died for you all...from his POV it was the right thing to do...
Was justice done? No, but at least _something _suffered for the actions of the town against me and I _did _forgive them, so apparently we're all cool on _that _point...

BUT, and my main point is...*why is nobody questioning why my son HAD to die so I could forgive everyone and get my tires??? *Why in this story, and the bible, is everyone just shrugging and accepting that "Yup, of course he had to die, just had to be, no other way to forgive people...nope, only torturing a man, that's all we got..." What kind of person does that make *me* for insisting on that condition without question? What kind of person does that make God?

This is fundamental to your religion, this basic belief of the death of Jesus and it's meaning for salvation, so surely you _have _to be able to answer this in normal words and sentences, right? This is the core of why you're a Christian! THAT is the question I am posing to you specifically, @IsraelWhiteFox ...can you answer it without a canned speech that ignores every point raised? Last chance...


----------



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 11, 2021)

Mambi said:


> <_sigh_> Look, I'm bored this morning, so let me show you how to answer the question using actual words and not just rambles ,ok? Here's a simple example of what I am asking you with a metaphor, and I hope the message is clear. If you can't understand metaphors due to any unknown underlying conditions, I apologize in advance.
> 
> Pretend that I go to my son with a running chainsaw and tell him that I have to kill the town that annoyed me so that I can have new tires for my van. He could choose to beg for the town's lives by choosing to sacrifice himself on their behalf for me, taking on the punishments for the people voluntarily. I could refuse or accept that sacrifice on their behalf, and let's say I accept that. I sacrifice my beloved son with the chainsaw, and forgive the town, screaming out "*It's ok everyone*, he has died for you! I will come for my tires soon, and all that accept my son's death as noble and just will be welcomed lovingly in my presence! May his sacrifice be not in vain!!!"
> 
> ...


God is loving, yes. But you do not understand how much he hates sin. In His eyes, to be forgiven you need to sacrifice something important, to show that you really are sorry. Doing something evil, asking for forgiveness, and then expecting to be forgiven just so that you can do it all over again without consequence does not work. So instead of sacrificing something physically, we devote ourselves to following Jesus and His teachings. That is our sacrifice. Jesus came upon Earth to take our sin. In His eyes, a sacrifice had to be made, and there is no greater sacrifice than that of the one who is pure, who did not commit any evil. The holy trinity may seem like three separate entities, but they are one. So God sacrificed Himself in our name.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God loves you unconditionally, but he wants you to love him back.



This premiss is a contradiction in itself. The word unconditional implies that something isn't tied to an expectation. But if your God want's something in return for his love it's not unconditional. And assuming that you belive in a moral construct like sin, also implies that the love of your god comes with the price tag of behaving in a certain kind of way.


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## Mambi (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God is loving, yes. But you do not understand how much he hates sin. In His eyes, to be forgiven you need to sacrifice something important, to show that you really are sorry. Doing something evil, asking for forgiveness, and then expecting to be forgiven just so that you can do it all over again without consequence does not work. So instead of sacrificing something physically, we devote ourselves to following Jesus and His teachings. That is our sacrifice. Jesus came upon Earth to take our sin. In His eyes, a sacrifice had to be made, and there is no greater sacrifice than that of the one who is pure, who did not commit any evil. The holy trinity may seem like three separate entities, but they are one. So God sacrificed Himself in our name.



So the answer is: you clearly cannot answer simple things without the canned speech that says nothing and addresses nothing. Are you a bot? You act like one.

Your answer still boils down to "God decided he had to suffer because he *chose *it that way", and that's all...you just repeated the premise of the question and dressed it up.

Since evil obviously never went away, does God torture Jesus/himself every day to clear the slate regularly? You said yourself, "in his eyes a sacrifice had to be made", meaning he set up the conditions 100% of his own free will...and he chose the torture route. And if you claim that sacrifice has to be made for "god's purity", then justice is not done as he just wanted to watch innocents suffer rather than those actually doing the evils.

You still haven't even tried to answer the question of "Why did God need innocent suffering for forgiveness", but then, that wasn't really your point when you posted this "reply", was it? _<grin> _Thank you for wasting everyone's time. I won't expect *anything *from you further, as you clearly have *nothing *intelligent to say and *no *ability to address counterpoints.


_<the cat walks away again, muttering to himself quietly>_ ...mindless moron...can't even form a simple thought but has _lots _to say apparently...typical born-again crap...


----------



## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 11, 2021)

dragon-in-sight said:


> This premiss is a contradiction in itself. The word unconditional implies that something isn't tied to an expectation. But if your God want's something in return for his love it's not unconditional. And assuming that you belive in a moral construct like sin, also implies that the love of your god comes with the price tag of behaving in a certain kind of way.


God will love you equally in your deepest, darkest moments and also in the moments when you are closest to Him, furthermore, He loves all of us equally as his children. He will not love you any less when you are sinning, or when you do not believe in Him. But He does want you to love him back, He does want you to love His other children. Sin removes you from this true love. If you are greedy, you will love money, but you will never have enough. These wells do not quench your thirst. But if you drink from His well, the well of true love, you will never be thirsty again.


----------



## Mambi (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God will love you equally in your deepest, darkest moments and also in the moments when you are closest to Him, furthermore, He loves all of us equally as his children. He will not love you any less when you are sinning, or when you do not believe in Him. But He does want you to love him back, He does want you to love His other children. Sin removes you from this true love. If you are greedy, you will love money, but you will never have enough. These wells do not quench your thirst. But if you drink from His well, the well of true love, you will never be thirsty again.



O.M.G! _<with a retching sound, the cat coughs up a hairball loudly...>_


----------



## TyraWadman (Oct 11, 2021)

Mambi said:


> <_sigh_> Look, I'm bored this morning, so let me show you how to answer the question using actual words and not just rambles ,ok? Here's a simple example of what I am asking you with a metaphor, and I hope the message is clear. If you can't understand metaphors due to any unknown underlying conditions, I apologize in advance.
> 
> Pretend that I go to my son with a running chainsaw and tell him that I have to kill the town that annoyed me so that I can have new tires for my van. He could choose to beg for the town's lives by choosing to sacrifice himself on their behalf for me, taking on the punishments for the people voluntarily. I could refuse or accept that sacrifice on their behalf, and let's say I accept that. I sacrifice my beloved son with the chainsaw, and forgive the town, screaming out "*It's ok everyone*, he has died for you! I will come for my tires soon, and all that accept my son's death as noble and just will be welcomed lovingly in my presence! May his sacrifice be not in vain!!!"
> 
> ...



This is one of those bizarre things I could never wrap my head around as a kid. It just didn't make sense to kill their own son. Plus the whole assumption that we are sinners from the moment we are born (as a priest once said when my parents dragged me to church). 

But for reals, I don't expect a modified, religion that has been misinterpreted, reinterpreted, mistranslated and revised every few years, to make sense. 



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God will love you equally in your deepest, darkest moments and also in the moments when you are closest to Him, furthermore, He loves all of us equally as his children. He will not love you any less when you are sinning, or when you do not believe in Him. But He does want you to love him back, He does want you to love His other children. Sin removes you from this true love. If you are greedy, you will love money, but you will never have enough. These wells do not quench your thirst. But if you drink from His well, the well of true love, you will never be thirsty again.



If you can't present yourself in a way most people understand, or if you make vague posts without  addressing their concerns, they are just going to mock you or tune you out. If you don't know how, I would recommend leaving it/them be to avoid hurting your cause. 

There are religious folk here on FAF you can mingle with. Assuming they're still active.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Oct 11, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Plus the whole assumption that we are sinners from the moment we are born (as a priest once said when my parents dragged me to church).


*Laughs in gay*


----------



## Kumali (Oct 11, 2021)

Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon
					

The complete texts of the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon, with annotations from a skeptic's point of view.




					www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
				









						Evil Bible .com – Fighting Against Immorality in Religion
					






					www.evilbible.com
				








__





						Problem of evil - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








__





						Problem of Hell - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Nexus Cabler (Oct 11, 2021)

People have the right believe in whatever faith they want, but people also have the right to express how they feel if one makes a public thread like this. I don't mean that in a mean way, to the OP. Feel free to follow your own path.

I'm just pointing out how this is a good example of why many people say "Please don't bring up religion/politics at our next family dinner" to that one uncle of theirs.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God will love you equally in your deepest, darkest moments and also in the moments when you are closest to Him, furthermore, He loves all of us equally as his children. He will not love you any less when you are sinning, or when you do not believe in Him. *But He does want you to love him back*, He does want you to love His other children. Sin removes you from this true love. If you are greedy, you will love money, but you will never have enough. These wells do not quench your thirst. But if you drink from His well, the well of true love, you will never be thirsty again.



And what if we don't?


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## dragon-in-sight (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> But He does want you to love him back, He does want you to love His other children. Sin removes you from this true love. If you are greedy, you will love money, but you will never have enough. These wells do not quench your thirst.



And why does an allegedly omnipotent entity care for such trifling sentiments? Shouldn't he be above the question what mortals think of him?


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 11, 2021)

dragon-in-sight said:


> And why does an allegedly omnipotent entity care for such trifling sentiments? Shouldn't he be above the question what mortals think of him?


Brother, the only reason why He created us is so that we may experience love. Before He created the universe, He already created you in His mind, so that He may love you and with hope that you will love Him and His other children.


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## Foxridley (Oct 11, 2021)

Nexus Cabler said:


> People have the right believe in whatever faith they want, but people also have the right to express how they feel if one makes a public thread like this. I don't mean that in a mean way, to the OP. Feel free to follow your own path.
> 
> I'm just pointing out how this is a good example of why many people say "Please don't bring up religion/politics at our next family dinner" to that one uncle of theirs.


These sorts of things usually are pointless. Sure, I have things I'd like to say in this debate (largely in rebuttal to IsraelWhiteFox), but there wouldn't be a point to it. To them, I'm just some rando on the internet (as most of us are to each other) and it's highly doubtful I'd be able to convince them of anything. They've probably already heard anything I have to say. Political and religious debates like these only really end up as an impasse between people with irreconcilable beliefs, or a circle jerk among people who agree.


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## Mambi (Oct 11, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Brother, the only reason why He created us is so that we may experience love. Before He created the universe, He already created you in His mind, so that He may love you and with hope that you will love Him and His other children.



All good pet owners love their pets, and want their pets to love them back unconditionally.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Oct 11, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> @Stray Cat Terry For many of us.... our souls tells us there is a God... period.
> As it is He - who has created us..... and not we ourselves.
> 
> Because for some of us.... we believe that we will join that other world with Him, someday..... and - for many of us- our faith dictates our lives, our opinions, our beliefs, our value systems, and indeed - our activities.... which often includes worship of said God, that many of us believe - will indeed redeem us in the end.



Oh.. My sincere apologies if I ever offended you(and everyone else eligible) with this one..

I've seen some cases that the belief--or further, faith--on the god had negatively affected people's mindsets, (to simplify,) because of the reality being too harsh to keep up with the faith. And my quotes with the viewpoint helped encouraging those.
(And in some rarer cases, this made one reconsider whether one's belief is actual)

However,  I know--no matter the religion--the faith on god(or any other admirable supernatural existence(s) one believes in) was meant to--but not limited to--ultimately encourage people to keep up in this same cruel universe. By that terms, I must have been rejecting that factor.

Sorry for my ignorance and disrespect.

All I tried to do was to encourage those who might be 'wandering' and hopefully further let the OP rethink about whether their intention is based upon actual factors--only in case it ain't.

Meowies! At the end of the day, if we can be happy while living and all, there's nothing necessary to conflict for! ^w^

Thankies for not being aggressive despite I regard your aggressive approach could be 'legitimate' under this situation, dear Connor! I deserved some wrath towards me yet you gave mercy...

Coexistence and care! That's all we need! >w<♡


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## Connor J. Coyote (Oct 12, 2021)

Stray Cat Terry said:


> Oh.. My sincere apologies if I ever offended you(and everyone else eligible) with this one..


Eh.... I'm not offended.... I'm just telling the guy my opinion... for whatever it's worth.... (take it or leave it).


Stray Cat Terry said:


> Thankies for not being aggressive despite I regard your aggressive approach could be 'legitimate' under this situation, dear Connor! I deserved some wrath towards me yet you gave mercy...


Eh... don't patronize me either. 


Stray Cat Terry said:


> Coexistence and care! That's all we need! >w<♡


Indeed.
---------------
@IsraelWhiteFox Seeing you're ignoring me... I hope you and others - take my points, (in this thread), in any case.... as - when you start to sound too preachy, it's only fair that others point that out. Best regards.


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## dragon-in-sight (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Brother, the only reason why He created us is so that we may experience love. Before He created the universe, He already created you in His mind, so that He may love you and with hope that you will love Him and His other children.


This still doesn't answer the question why a divine beeing needs such kind of attention.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 12, 2021)

dragon-in-sight said:


> This still doesn't answer the question why a divine beeing needs such kind of attention.


It makes sense if you look at it through a proper lens. Don't think modern Christianity or Bible. Think more romantic Hellenism.
The bible is written as though the god contained therein is the one top being.

If you actually dig deeper though he was a relatively minor god of the Canaanites who had a very large polytheistic group, Yahweh is god of the Devine wind, and metallurgy. The top dog gods were El, Baal, astart and anat. El was the supreme, though many worshiped Baal. And fun note : baal and yahweh were buddies. They fought side by side against the same enemies like the god of the seas (Ym).

What does this really mean? Lets assume that the works are actually inspired by this god, and the authors were writing by divination. They wrote its fan fiction.
A less jabbing way of looking at it : following this book is just following subservience of a single diety, from a sea of others. Its like worshiping only Hera, even though Zeus & the others exists.

the tldr is its just damn complicated.
I am also not knocking anyone's religion. They are all fun to learn about. You do you, just don't force it on people, and don't misquote your own works.


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## ConorHyena (Oct 12, 2021)

I approve of the fact that christian god clearly shares my sense of humor.



Christine Vulpes said:


> The top dog gods were El, Baal, astart and anat. El was the supreme, though many worshiped Baal. And fun note : baal and yahweh were buddies. They fought side by side against the same enemies like the god of the seas (Ym).


The moment you mentioned Baal I immediately thought of him


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 12, 2021)

ConorHyena said:


> I approve of the fact that christian god clearly shares my sense of humor.
> 
> 
> The moment you mentioned Baal I immediately thought of him


I mean this IS Baal in that universes cannon. God of thunder. A superior being that ruled over the people of the lands of Ur and Canaan.
All of the high level goa'ulds are or were deities to the ancient earth peoples!


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## ConorHyena (Oct 12, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> I mean this IS Baal in that universes cannon. God of thunder. A superior being that ruled over the people of the lands of Ur and Canaan.
> All of the high level goa'ulds are or were deities to the ancient earth peoples!


As someone who's mildly obsessed with proto-christian and historical symbolism I am quite aware :3


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

dragon-in-sight said:


> This still doesn't answer the question why a divine beeing needs such kind of attention.



He isn't writing for you to read an answer...he's writing so you read a bunch of holy empty statements. 

I think it's obvious he's not trying to explain or answer anything, every post is a sermon that only *barely* relates to what's being asked. But he's forcing anyone who's curious to read a bunch of empty flowery holy words while they try and see *if* he's answered anything, and if they try and parse his words to counter, he'll post another sermon and claim that's the answer you seek...just read it over and over and over until it makes sense. 

It reminds me of a telemarker call...where no matter how you reply they have a script, so if you reply in any way with "No I don't want that product", WHAT you say is irrelevant as they just go to the flowsheet and start reading "canned response to negative reply #2". He might not even be a human, since he's stopped thinking and speaking like one clearly. (@IsraelWhiteFox , it's easy to prove *that *wrong. Say a simple sentence like "I like grapes becasue they are sweet" and mention my name, then go on with whatever the hell you want. It will prove you're reading and actually replying to something...literally anythign except a canned speech)

Same deal here...someone mentions tangentially a question about Jesus dying, so we get the canned speech of "Jesus died for you because he loves you and forgiveness is divine as the lord is divine and one who walks with the Lord will bask in His glory and..." with absolutely no regard to what's been asked specifically. No different to if I asked you what you had for breaskfast, and you replied with a medical journal detailing the importance of starting your meal off with all 4 food groups. Nice speech but not even close to what I asked. He's basically doing the same thing...read back for yourself.

Standard beginner-level born-again EMPTY MEANINGLESS THOUGHTLESS preaching techniques...seen it dozens of times. He proved it within his 3rd reply to me and everyone else totally. Read back and you'll see...he ain't saying ANYTHING in his messages, just flowery non-committal wording that sounds cute but is absolutely empty of thought or structure. 

So don't waste too much time here...pretty apparent you're only going to get a paragraph of literally-random preaching in return...


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 12, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Eh.... I'm not offended.... I'm just telling the guy my opinion... for whatever it's worth.... (take it or leave it).
> 
> Eh... don't patronize me either.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts. If somebody is not interested, they do not have to listen, those who wish to listen will listen. Those who disagree can disagree if they so wish, I am not here for them but for those who need help.


Christine Vulpes said:


> It makes sense if you look at it through a proper lens. Don't think modern Christianity or Bible. Think more romantic Hellenism.
> The bible is written as though the god contained therein is the one top being.
> 
> If you actually dig deeper though he was a relatively minor god of the Canaanites who had a very large polytheistic group, Yahweh is god of the Devine wind, and metallurgy. The top dog gods were El, Baal, astart and anat. El was the supreme, though many worshiped Baal. And fun note : baal and yahweh were buddies. They fought side by side against the same enemies like the god of the seas (Ym).
> ...


The Egyptian gods were unable to stop the chosen nation from escaping captivity. They are fake gods. Only the prophecies of the one true God have come true. When queen Jezebel brought the worship of Baal (the rain god) into Israel, God used the prophet Elijah to show that He is the one true God. Elijah prophesized three years of no rain, and it was so. After three years of drought 450 false prophets of Baal came upon mount Carmel and challenged Elijah. After they tried again and again for their god to prove his presence, Elijah called upon God to show a sign, and He did, and the false prophets were slain.


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God will love you equally in your deepest, darkest moments and also in the moments when you are closest to Him, furthermore, He loves all of us equally as his children. He will not love you any less when you are sinning, or when you do not believe in Him. But He does want you to love him back, He does want you to love His other children. Sin removes you from this true love. If you are greedy, you will love money, but you will never have enough. These wells do not quench your thirst. But if you drink from His well, the well of true love, you will never be thirsty again.





Marius Merganser said:


> And what if we don't?



...then apparently his views are more along the lines of "to HELL with you!!!" 

_<the earth cracks as hordes of angels fly from the skies carrying crossbows and swords to share God's "love" with those that disagree with their master...>_


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## TyraWadman (Oct 12, 2021)

Everytime I see this thread get bumped I think of Gary. ;n;


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I appreciate your thoughts. If somebody is not interested, they do not have to listen, those who wish to listen will listen. Those who disagree can disagree if they so wish, I am not here for them but for those who need help.



I only wish that was true, but I doubt it. You felt like preaching (or as I'm sure you think of it, "teaching"), completely one-sided, and the moderators somehow let you.

Obviously you see nothing offensive in what you're doing at all, so since you feel that way, may I have the webpage of your religious organization? That way, I can start posting *there* about how they are clearly wrong and need to return to a non-religious lifestyle, as clearly God has abandoned them, but is welcoming to their return to the fluff gods if they are willing to listen? Oh don't worry, I'll only post an entire page of ranting to start and will only discuss with those that are willing to listen, just like you.

Naturally there will be no disruption to the site's religious tone, as I won't be debating anything at all, just posting empty statements over and over. Nobody's forced to read them so those that are offended by my descriptions of the yiffpile requirements shouldn't be a problem...after all anyone who complains clearly isn't open minded enough to just consider my good words. I'm only posting to HELP people, not to convert them. Just a discussion to help my fellow humans, right? Gotta look out for them. (sarcasm dripping with every word in case it's not obvious)

There should be no problems at all. But there WOULD be and you know it. So what makes you think it's any different when preachers rant randomly where it's not welcomed, just to turn around and say when people stop listening "Hey, I'm just trying to help those that might not see the light in your group so I'm completely innocent. La-la-laaa". But you know it's not both ways...the moment a non-religious POV appears on a religious site they're banhammered so fast it causes a sonic  boom!

There's a reason preachers are usually not welcomed on other random non-religious sites...they never understand that they're preaching because to them they're just "chatting", the topic just happens to be 100% Jesus and how you need him to live, and any attempts to get them/you to rein it back only leads to "I'm just talking and asking a question so I can help people! or "I'm just telling my story so others can learn from it" or other excuses to bring *church* to *others*, rather then let *others *come to *church *like you're supposed to do! <_eye roll> Y_ou're not fooling anyone...I've seen your types far too many times, all smiles and purity wrapped up in a robe of holy piety and spiritual joy...claiming to have answers when you never even thought about the questions, hoping to catch someone who's equally gullible to share the joy with and re-enforce your own narrow views.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 12, 2021)

Mambi said:


> ...then apparently his views are more along the lines of "to HELL with you!!!"
> 
> _<the earth cracks as hordes of angels fly from the skies carrying crossbows and swords to share God's "love" with those that disagree with their master...>_



Well, sure, but it's a lot more fun to hear the same person who talks about such a loving deity immediately go on to describe the horrors of an eternal torment for the thought crime of non-belief.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 12, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> Well, sure, but it's a lot more fun to hear the same person who talks about such a loving deity immediately go on to describe the horrors of an eternal torment for the thought crime of non-belief.


The very fact that we are sinners is the reason Christ came upon the earth. You do not have to believe in him in life. You just have to be a good person. Once you die, you can accept Him so that His sacrifice purifies you. Hell is reserved for those hardcore sinners, those who enjoy causing suffering, those who fully embrace the darkness, the ones who would not repent of their sins even if given the opportunity. The ones who think that love is a weakness. They are the ones who will be punished.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Once you die, you can accept Him so that His sacrifice purifies you.


Well there it is, something that's not even supported by the texts. I knew if this went on long enough we would get here.
the bible itself makes reference to there being only one death, and judgment is immediately following it.  No second chances, no choices to make after death. Once you die its pre-destination. This section is in hebrews, in case you actually wish to read it.
At least read the material you want to reference.


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The very fact that we are sinners is the reason Christ came upon the earth.


We were made in his image and therefore inquisitive and rebellious by design...our "sin" was gaining knowledge, "original sin".



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> You do not have to believe in him in life. You just have to be a good person.



Already am a good person, so if you say I don't _have _to believe in him, why are you preaching right now that we must do so? Seems redundant.

By the way, is being a "gay furry" still a "good person" to God? Better damn well be...<lol>



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Once you die, you can accept Him so that His sacrifice purifies you.



Oh, so you *DO* have to believe in him then! Make up your mind, you can't even keep a thought straight for 2 sentences dude!



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Hell is reserved for those hardcore sinners, those who enjoy causing suffering, those who fully embrace the darkness, the ones who would not repent of their sins even if given the opportunity. The ones who think that love is a weakness. They are the ones who will be punished.



All right then, I'll play along. I am a good person all my life, and I die but do NOT accept Jesus as you stated I do not have to. What does God do in that scenario?

No flowery language, no "love praise he loves you and wants you to accept his son's sacrifice for you" bullshit, a simple YES or NO simplicity...your own words, what does God do to innocent decent people who choose not to accept Jesus since "hell" is not the correct answer according to what you just wrote

Simple question...awaiting a simple answer.


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## Foxridley (Oct 12, 2021)

This is starting to sound a bit like a stuck record. No matter how many times any of the folks here repeat the same responses, nobody is going to have their mind changed. @Mambi is not going to suddenly find God, nor is @IsraelWhiteFox going to stop believing any more than they would start sacrificing to Poseidon if I told them to.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 12, 2021)

Mambi said:


> We were made in his image and therefore inquisitive and rebellious by design...our "sin" was gaining knowledge, "original sin".


That's also not correct. The sin was disobedience. They were told explicitly to not do only one thing...to not eat from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil"
And then they did it. The sin was not of learning, or gaining intelligence, or or even eating the fruit to begin with. It was disobeying their only rule. 
Its a very utilitarian look at the passage.  Still a stupid thing logically to damn everyone for forever over beings with no concept of right/wrong for doing something "wrong"
I don't want to get into the rabbit hole of why put the tree there, why allow luciferian beings into the garden, etc etc in the first place. Too many plot holes.


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## PLEASE DELETE ACCOUNT (Oct 12, 2021)

I 


Foxridley said:


> This is starting to sound a bit like a stuck record. No matter how many times any of the folks here repeat the same responses, nobody is going to have their mind changed. @Mambi is not going to suddenly find God, nor is @IsraelWhiteFox going to stop believing any more than they would start sacrificing to Poseidon if I told them to.


I still cannot figure out if its a person, or a person guided bot honestly.
I just think its fun these always devolve into preaching, but what they preach is not even supported by their own texts a majority of the time.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The very fact that we are sinners is the reason Christ came upon the earth.



To me, that sounds like a failure for a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent deity.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> You do not have to believe in him in life. You just have to be a good person.



Could you expand on the qualifications of a "good person"?
What are the minimum requirements to be a good person, for example? If someone is only willing to put in the minimum effort in an attempt to avoid a punishment, rather than being good for goodness's sake, or from a true sense of faith, is that person still "good"?



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Once you die, you can accept Him so that His sacrifice purifies you. Hell is reserved for those hardcore sinners, those who enjoy causing suffering, those who fully embrace the darkness, the ones who would not repent of their sins even if given the opportunity. The ones who think that love is a weakness. They are the ones who will be punished.



That conflicts with the literally hundreds of Christians I've interacted who were positively giddy at the thought of my eternal suffering simply because I subscribe to a different set of beliefs.  Fortunately for me, the concepts of heaven and hell are not part of that set of beliefs so I will no lose no sleep over it.


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

Foxridley said:


> This is starting to sound a bit like a stuck record. No matter how many times any of the folks here repeat the same responses, nobody is going to have their mind changed. @Mambi is not going to suddenly find God, nor is @IsraelWhiteFox going to stop believing any more than they would start sacrificing to Poseidon if I told them to.



_<lol> _I agree totally, but as long as he insists on preaching empty platitudes, I just want him to *think *about what he's saying and not annoy everyone. I don't personally care what he believes...as long as he stops bringing church to me and doesn't just assume that his views are absolutely correct without even the slightest thought to the values of others. I know he's not going to change his mind, I just want him to knock it off and stop trying to patronizingly change ours! And until he does, I'm simply going to have fun with him and his preachings. Preachings *he* brought up I remind you, I'm just asking him to explain himself further, right? <_teeheehee>_

If I want to go to church and hear speeches praising the glories of God and Jesus, there's lots of building down the street with huge crosses on them. Not hard to find. 

If I want to go to see naked dancers, there's lots of buildings down the street with huge neon signs on them. Not hard to find.

But I *don't *need naked girls nor church crap brought into *every *place I go, and the uber-religious like our friend here LOVE to do that in a heartbeat. 


He's the kind of person who'd start preaching on a subway to a captive audience and honestly not understand why people are upset with his ramblings.


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## Foxridley (Oct 12, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> I
> 
> I still cannot figure out if its a person, or a person guided bot honestly.
> I just think its fun these always devolve into preaching, but what they preach is not even supported by their own texts a majority of the time.


I have not read much from the Bible myself, but I understand a much of Christianity, no matter which version they practice, is not really supported by the Bible. It's been like that for centuries.


Mambi said:


> _<lol> _I agree totally, but as long as he insists on preaching empty platitudes, I just want him to *think *about what he's saying and not annoy everyone. I don't personally care what he believes...as long as he stops bringing church to me and doesn't just assume that his views are absolutely correct without even the slightest thought to the values of others. I know he's not going to change his mind, I just want him to knock it off and stop trying to patronizingly change ours! And until he does, I'm simply going to have fun with him and his preachings. Preachings *he* brought up I remind you, I'm just asking him to explain himself further, right? <_teeheehee>_
> 
> If I want to go to church and hear speeches praising the glories of God and Jesus, there's lots of building down the street with huge crosses on them. Not hard to find.
> 
> ...


I think this is a real person, but I wonder, if perhaps the rote responses are simply a result of them being a non-native English speaker. You made comparisons to those telemarketers. I figure those folks just memorize responses instead of becoming proficient in English.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 12, 2021)

Mambi said:


> We were made in his image and therefore inquisitive and rebellious by design...our "sin" was gaining knowledge, "original sin".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The original sin had to happen so that we may gain free will, and then be able to use it to decide whether or not we wish to be good or evil. That tree was placed there with knowledge that Adam and Eve would eat from it.

A righteous farmer in India who never even heard of Jesus in his life will also be given the opportunity to accept Him when he dies.

 Accepting Jesus and His word during your lifetime should serve the purpose of giving you hope, and inspire you to be a member of His kingdom even here, in other words to aspire towards good. 

As previously stated, God's condition for forgiveness is sacrifice, and even the tiniest sin has to be washed away to be in His presence, which is why even if you are righteous, but still do not accept Christ upon death, you may not enter heaven, because you did not accept His sacrifice. You underestimate how much God hates sin, yet receiving it was required in order to see if we will or will not succumb to it in our lives, in other words the sin is there to test us. In heaven, you will still have your free will, but the sin itself will be gone.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The very fact that we are sinners is the reason Christ came upon the earth. *You do not have to believe in him in life. You just have to be a good person. Once you die, you can accept Him so that His sacrifice purifies you. Hell is reserved for those hardcore sinners, those who enjoy causing suffering, those who fully embrace the darkness, the ones who would not repent of their sins even if given the opportunity.* The ones who think that love is a weakness. They are the ones who will be punished.



And only 10 posts later:



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> *As previously stated, God's condition for forgiveness is sacrifice, and even the tiniest sin has to be washed away to be in His presence, which is why even if you are righteous, but still do not accept Christ upon death, you may not enter heaven, because you did not accept His sacrifice.* You underestimate how much God hates sin, yet receiving it was required in order to see if we will or will not succumb to it in our lives, in other words the sin is there to test us.



The plot thickens.
So in which one of these quotes were you lying?  
Will you repent for your sin?



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> In heaven, you will still have your free will, but the sin itself will be gone.


If I cannot choose to sin in heaven, then I would not have free will. 
If I go to hell, can I still choose to do good things?


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## Kumali (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> *Only the prophecies of the one true God have come true.* When queen Jezebel brought the worship of Baal (the rain god) into Israel, God used the prophet Elijah to show that He is the one true God. *Elijah prophesized three years of no rain, and it was so.* After three years of drought 450 false prophets of Baal came upon mount Carmel and challenged Elijah. After they tried again and again for their god to prove his presence, *Elijah called upon God to show a sign, and He did, and the false prophets were slain.*



...according to a two- to four-thousand-year-old book of myths supported by no empirical or historical evidence, written anonymously and/or pseudonymously by any number of unknown authors, edited (often for reasons of immediate political advantage) and translated innumerable times, containing countless internal contradictions, easily disproved factual errors, and outright atrocities. 

Again: 






						Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon
					

The complete texts of the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon, with annotations from a skeptic's point of view.




					www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
				









						Evil Bible .com – Fighting Against Immorality in Religion
					






					www.evilbible.com
				




Also worth reading on the subject: _The Age of Reason_ by Thomas Paine and anything by Bart Ehrman, especially _Misquoting Jesus_ and _Jesus, Interrupted._

Believe what you like, just don't expect to be taken seriously if you quote the Bible as a source of either historical record or moral guidance.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 12, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> And only 10 posts later:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not lie. The ones who would not repent for their sins are the ones who embraced the darkness and are not sorry for it. God is willing to forgive you if you accept the sacrifice of Jesus. If you are "righteous" and yet you refuse it, that means that you are not willing to repent for your sins, and one of the reasons why you would do that would be pride. It is written that once in heaven, you will be free of sin, and that is the word of God.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 12, 2021)

Brothers and sisters, if you do not wish to be free of sin, if you do not wish to live in a better place, heaven is not the place for you.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I did not lie. The ones who would not repent for their sins are the ones who embraced the darkness and are not sorry for it.



Is non-belief a sin?



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God is willing to forgive you if you accept the sacrifice of Jesus. If you are "righteous" and yet you refuse it, that means that you are not willing to repent for your sins, and one of the reasons why you would do that would be pride.



Let's review:
In the first post you said: _*"God loves you unconditionally"*_
Then you said:  "*You do not have to believe in him in life. You just have to be a good person."*
But then changed it to: "_*God's condition for forgiveness is sacrifice,"*_
And now it's: "*God is willing to forgive you if you accept the sacrifice of Jesus."*

If your deity is not willing to forgive me because I don't happen to believe, then his love is not conditional and being good is irrelevant.

If we accept the later statements, then your earlier statements are deceiving at best.  

If accepting Jesus's sacrifice (belief), is the key to salvation (and torment in hell is the only alternative), then why would you not mention that in the original post? Seems odd to leave that out when everyone's eternal soul is on the line.





IsraelWhiteFox said:


> It is written that once in heaven, you will be free of sin, and that is the word of God.



But if I wanted to give an angel a wedgie, I could?
(If the answer is no, then I wouldn't have free will).


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## TyraWadman (Oct 12, 2021)

I personally feel like people went and made an unnecessarily flowery (and terrible) fanfic of humans and it just never got dropped over the centuries.

If we are created in the G.O.D's image, then that's like us inheriting the genetics of our parents.
Our parents are god. We look to them for guidance because we're toddlers and we need to. Parents tend to love their children unconditionally (supporting through the good and the bad, learning to forgive them when they stray and do bad deeds and find their way again, etcetc). 
God can create life, God can take life.
So can we.
We decide what we want to do, and how we handle any obstacles we need to overcome.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Brothers and sisters, if you do not wish to be free of sin, if you do not wish to live in a better place, heaven is not the place for you.



Seems unreasonable to expect everyone to adopt a series of unfounded beliefs that dictate how we live the rest of our lives, and threaten us with eternal suffering if we don't, when you can't even give a consistent description of what those beliefs are supposed to be.

What's so great about heaven anyway?


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 12, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> Is non-belief a sin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God does love you unconditionally, He loved me in my deepest moments of depravity equally to how He loves me now. Do not consider only the great love of God, but also His role as the judge. If you embrace darkness and refuse light even after death, then you may not enter Heaven.

You can accept the sacrifice of Jesus whenever, be it during life or upon death. Your lack of belief during life will be remedied when you die, and then will you be able to accept Him.

And regarding the angel, you wouldn't feel any need for that. You are not your sin, it is something that "latched" itself onto you. And as mentioned in the previous post, if you desire to be sinful, heaven is not the place for you.


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The original sin had to happen so that we may gain free will, and then be able to use it to decide whether or not we wish to be good or evil. That tree was placed there with knowledge that Adam and Eve would eat from it.
> 
> A righteous farmer in India who never even heard of Jesus in his life will also be given the opportunity to accept Him when he dies.
> 
> ...



No, that does NOT answer the question "What does God do to those that are good but do not accept Jesus" and you know it. You just said you don't even need Jesus to be good, and now at the last second you have to, so apparently you *do*? That's just a loophole as he knows you're not sincere about it, just last-minute panic (all assuming your story is correct, which is just an assumption for discussion). You really think God's that stupid? Or you just magically assume that the very second anyone sees Jesus they'll instantly bow and lick his feet and be "saved"? Can you even fathom the thought that someone might not _want _to be Christian?

But back to the point, they don't go to hell apparently, but God refuses them into Heaven. So what *is *your answer then? Ghosts...is that where ghosts come from? Demons? Angels? Disappear into the void? Reincarnation? Limbo? I want proof you can answer a simple question with a simple answer that didn't come from a Jehova Witness pamphlet! You're still giving sermons with a lot of extra baggage...just answer a simple question already, you're embarrassing yourself.


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I did not lie. The ones who would not repent for their sins are the ones who embraced the darkness and are not sorry for it. God is willing to forgive you if you accept the sacrifice of Jesus. If you are "righteous" and yet you refuse it, that means that you are not willing to repent for your sins, and one of the reasons why you would do that would be pride. It is written that once in heaven, you will be free of sin, and that is the word of God.



It is also written that eating shellfish is an abomination...stop quoting and start thinking. We've been through this already, try to keep up.

Now, let's play more. God is apparently so weak that he can't stand the thought of any sin at all in a person. Yet everyone is a sinner no matter how they acted in the eyes of God if Jesus hasn't purified them. Yet Jesus didn't do squat as the sin still would remain in the person regardless *OR *he died for our sins and therefore accepting him is redundant as the sin died when he did 2000 years ago.* PICK ONE!!! *You want it both ways...

You *STILL *haven't said what specifically about Jesus's death made God so happy, and now you're telling me that literally nothing I do matters in the slightest to God *EXCEPT *accepting his son and even that can be done at the last second. If original sin isn't washed away then he died for nothing...and if it IS washed away then accepting him is irrelevant. See how logic works when you think about it for more than 10 seconds? Now try again...why did Jesus's death make God so happy he forgave us?


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## Foxridley (Oct 12, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Brothers and sisters, if you do not wish to be free of sin, if you do not wish to live in a better place, heaven is not the place for you.


It is not a matter of us not wishing to be free of sin, or not wishing to better ourselves. It is a matter of us not believing that what you are presenting is a real path to any kind of salvation. We have heard it, or some version of it, a hundred times before. Hearing more repetition from yet another stranger on the internet is not going to change convince us any more than others we heard before you.
If you are correct, then it would only matter at the moment of my death, when I meet Jesus, and when I face the decision to accept or reject him. I would be making the choice then, based on what I see then, and certainly not based on anything you said here. Our thoughts today, your words to those who don't believe you, won't matter. So why bother?


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## Mambi (Oct 12, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> Seems unreasonable to expect everyone to adopt a series of unfounded beliefs that dictate how we live the rest of our lives, and threaten us with eternal suffering if we don't, when you can't even give a consistent description of what those beliefs are supposed to be.
> 
> What's so great about heaven anyway?



I always wondered that myself...there is no point to life as it's described, no escape, and no fun. Physically there would be no challenges to overcome and no drive to achieve anything plus most fun things are a minor harmless thrill sin often, and mentally it's described like heroin mixed with Molly...just a mindless joy and total feeling of soaring bliss 24/7 as you no longer have any sins weighing you down, all while singing praises to the Master (God) for allowing you be in his presence. And the same the day after that...and the day after that...forever and ever...while somehow not being aware of any loved ones that didn't make it I guess, so you don't have any pesky spiritual "survivor's guilt" to deal with. Gee, sounds great! <eye roll>

I'll take reincarnation or guardian spirit duty anytime over _that_, give my soul a purpose already, I got some good karma to build! <lol>


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## Parabellum3 (Oct 13, 2021)

Bruh I don’t even understand how can everybody else understand the OP’s cryptic religious rambling except for me…


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

Parabellum3 said:


> Bruh I don’t even understand how can everybody else understand the OP’s cryptic religious rambling except for me…



That's his point though, he's not saying anything but it looks like he is. I did parse his words in every post, and saw an empty page and an empty mind.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 13, 2021)

Mambi said:


> It is also written that eating shellfish is an abomination...stop quoting and start thinking. We've been through this already, try to keep up.
> 
> Now, let's play more. God is apparently so weak that he can't stand the thought of any sin at all in a person. Yet everyone is a sinner no matter how they acted in the eyes of God if Jesus hasn't purified them. Yet Jesus didn't do squat as the sin still would remain in the person regardless *OR *he died for our sins and therefore accepting him is redundant as the sin died when he did 2000 years ago.* PICK ONE!!! *You want it both ways...
> 
> You *STILL *haven't said what specifically about Jesus's death made God so happy, and now you're telling me that literally nothing I do matters in the slightest to God *EXCEPT *accepting his son and even that can be done at the last second. If original sin isn't washed away then he died for nothing...and if it IS washed away then accepting him is irrelevant. See how logic works when you think about it for more than 10 seconds? Now try again...why did Jesus's death make God so happy he forgave us?


If you open your eyes you would see that all those questions have been answered.


Mambi said:


> I always wondered that myself...there is no point to life as it's described, no escape, and no fun. Physically there would be no challenges to overcome and no drive to achieve anything plus most fun things are a minor harmless thrill sin often, and mentally it's described like heroin mixed with Molly...just a mindless joy and total feeling of soaring bliss 24/7 as you no longer have any sins weighing you down, all while singing praises to the Master (God) for allowing you be in his presence. And the same the day after that...and the day after that...forever and ever...while somehow not being aware of any loved ones that didn't make it I guess, so you don't have any pesky spiritual "survivor's guilt" to deal with. Gee, sounds great! <eye roll>
> 
> I'll take reincarnation or guardian spirit duty anytime over _that_, give my soul a purpose already, I got some good karma to build! <lol>


God loves you too much to enslave you like so. What He seeks to build within you is true love towards Him and everybody else. I am not here to argue with you, and doing so would result in a circular debate which would last for an eternity. I am here for those who need encouragement, and those who WILL need encouragement. Stay the way you are, one day the proof will come to you.


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> If you open your eyes you would see that all those questions have been answered.



_Oh no_, you don't get away with "you're just too blind to see my truth, read it again" as a cop-out, nice try!!! That's just move #4 from the evangelical playbook...the old "Well it makes sense to me so I guess you need to accept God first in order to have it cleared up for you!" bullshit. Why don't *you* try opening *your* mouth (figuratively in text) and actually answer something for a change? But I know you won't.

I've dealt with your type of empty preaching in the past. You have not answered anything and don't plan to, but you repeated a lot of nice sounding words that sounds nice but say nothing, repeat Jesus and Love a lot and hope the reader magically feels god's love wash over them or something. So, either answer a simple question properly and clearly, or admit you don't know the answer.

"I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer BTW, we're only humans, but as long as *you* keep insisting you have the answers, we're going to ask for them and you're going to look very stupid. But we know the truth...you just refuse to answer clearly because...you...*can't*...and you don't want to admit it.




IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God loves you too much to enslave you like so. What He seeks to build within you is true love towards Him and everybody else. I am not here to argue with you, and doing so would result in a circular debate which would last for an eternity.



Actually I agree with you on this one, you are *not* here to argue debate, or answer, or explain...becasue you're not even close to capable of it. There is no debate because you're not offering a single counterpoint nor addressing any counterpoints. You're just a street person rambling to a crowd and somehow thinking they're acting like a spiritual guide. You're here to suck up gullible on-the-fencers to your church and shove the rambling teaching of said church onto those that *you* feel could use it. In your mind I'm certain you're saving lost souls, and "if even one person finds God it's all worth it", right?



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I am here for those who need encouragement, and those who WILL need encouragement. Stay the way you are, one day the proof will come to you.



I plan to. But I like how your preaching took this route:

"Here is a large posting of my beliefs, and more random rambles when engaged in even the slightest way. But I'm not here to discuss my beliefs unless you agree with me, then I'm happy to talk and talk and talk. If you don't see that I'm right through, it's your fault becasue God's love and the whole story is so *obvious* to anyone who's already a die-hard christian. I won't explain myself even when I contradict myself. But I'm just here to encourage everyone to trust that it all makes sense, just don't question it or think about it in any way. PLease go to this youtube channel."  (and odds are if I actually did, _eventually _I'd see a Patreon or Paypal link or some other means to give money to support the message or other crap)

Now I ask you to think about your own words and when you have a question, seek out an honest answer rather than blinding trusting a human in a fancy robe.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 13, 2021)

My wife and I often have discussions on God, religion, and why my soul needs saving.  I had to tell her I like God well enough, but religion is an excuse.  God is the ultimate scapegoat - something goes wrong, it wasn't poor planning, it just wasn't God's will.  Then came unconditional love, because God forgives that blasphemy.  Another argument was God loves everyone.  The retort was as long as someone is paying money to the Church he does.  We fought until thiss meme:





My wife learned there are gun blessing ceremonies in the US.
I don't have to go to Church on Sundays anymore.


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> My wife and I often have discussions on God, religion, and why my soul needs saving.  I had to tell her I like God well enough, but religion is an excuse.  God is the ultimate scapegoat - something goes wrong, it wasn't poor planning, it just wasn't God's will.  Then came unconditional love, because God forgives that blasphemy.  Another argument was God loves everyone.  The retort was as long as someone is paying money to the Church he does.  We fought until thiss meme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



<blink-blink>  Gun...*blessing *ceremonies? What the actual fu...??? Are they literally preparing for a holy war? Why would they think God would want to bless an instrument that's designed to kill? Actually scratch that last one...but still, this is the weirdest thing I saw all morning!!! _God's love one bullet at a time??? <LOL>_


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 13, 2021)

Chaplain on the nearby base or priest in town will do it monthly and at the start and end of hunting season.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Brothers and sisters, if you do not wish to be free of sin, if you do not wish to live in a better place, heaven is not the place for you.


My man Satan got did dirty.
I don’t care if I get coated in molten gold for my greedy sins, even though I’ve never understood the idea of punishing sinners.
Only downside to hell is it’s hot, or so it is often said to be in most religions.


Minerva_Minx said:


> The retort was as long as someone is paying money to the Church he does.  We fought until thiss meme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you deadass found a way to no longer go to Church on Sunday’s because your wife discovered gun blessings? That’s a power move, tbf.
Also I can’t blame people for wanting to max out possible DPS, I know I would even if I’m not religious.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 13, 2021)

I'm agnostic.  As for being a "deadass", if you mean I don't like listening to renearsed plays every Sunday or fear of the unknown, you are correct.


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I'm agnostic.  As for being a "deadass", if you mean I don't like listening to renearsed plays every Sunday or fear of the unknown, you are correct.


If the messages hasn't updated in over 2000 years of daily preaching, it's not going to change by the next Sunday for sure. <grin>


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## TyraWadman (Oct 13, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I'm agnostic.  As for being a "deadass", if you mean I don't like listening to renearsed plays every Sunday or fear of the unknown, you are correct.


I believe deadass is the new 'for real'


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 13, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> Seems unreasonable to expect everyone to adopt a series of unfounded beliefs that dictate how we live the rest of our lives, and threaten us with eternal suffering if we don't, when you can't even give a consistent description of what those beliefs are supposed to be.
> 
> What's so great about heaven anyway?


The eternal suffering of hell is not simply pure and endless pain, it is the darkness that consumes your soul. Say you were greedy, and greed consumed you in life. Unless you desire to change and accept love, so too will greed consume you in death. If you were greedy, in hell your soul would always seek more yet never have enough. This is the suffering that you would experience. Love is the only well that can quench the thirst. 


Mambi said:


> <blink-blink>  Gun...*blessing *ceremonies? What the actual fu...??? Are they literally preparing for a holy war? Why would they think God would want to bless an instrument that's designed to kill? Actually scratch that last one...but still, this is the weirdest thing I saw all morning!!! _God's love one bullet at a time??? <LOL>_


People will use God as an excuse for horrible atrocities. That doesn't mean that God approves.


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The eternal suffering of hell is not simply pure and endless pain, it is the darkness that consumes your soul. Say you were greedy, and greed consumed you in life. Unless you desire to change and accept love, so too will greed consume you in death. If you were greedy, in hell your soul would always seek more yet never have enough. This is the suffering that you would experience. Love is the only well that can quench the thirst.



He asks "what's so great about Heaven?" and every single word of your entire reply talks about only Hell and not a single word to Heaven. You know, the thing you're replying about to him? <_sigh> _Should I even be surprised by this point? _<eye roll>_

THIS is why nobody can take you seriously, you just ignore everyone's points and expect us to listen to your "views" openly. But we're drinking from an empty well with you. Gotta tell you, as a preacher you really suck at this, and as a born-again, you really need to get your own thoughts straight before you try to "explain" them.


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> People will use God as an excuse for horrible atrocities. That doesn't mean that God approves.



That was a priest blessing the guns with holy water, in a church, surrounded by fellow worshippers. Clearly God fine with that. Shall I assume everyone in that building is now barred from Heaven, including the priest and children? After all, they no longer have Jesus in their hearts as they have embraced violence.

(ok, I mentioned "Jesus", "violence", "hearts" and "heaven", as well as God being ok with sins seemingly. Instead of answering *any *of this, let's see...cue the canned generic speech about the nature of love and free will and embracing the Lord to get to heaven and Jesus entering hearts freeing them all from their sins in 3...2...1...) _<giggles> _


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 13, 2021)

Mambi said:


> He asks "what's so great about Heaven?" and every single word of your entire reply talks about only Hell and not a single word to Heaven. You know, the thing you're replying about to him? <_sigh> _Should I even be surprised by this point? _<eye roll>_
> 
> THIS is why nobody can take you seriously, you just ignore everyone's points and expect us to listen to your "views" openly. But we're drinking from an empty well with you. Gotta tell you, as a preacher you really suck at this, and as a born-again, you really need to get your own thoughts straight before you try to "explain" them.


He asked: What beliefs? I answered: Love



Mambi said:


> That was a priest blessing the guns with holy water, in a church, surrounded by fellow worshippers. Clearly God fine with that. Shall I assume everyone in that building is now barred from Heaven, including the priest and children? After all, they no longer have Jesus in their hearts as they have embraced violence.
> 
> (ok, I mentioned "Jesus", "violence", "hearts" and "heaven", as well as God being ok with sins seemingly. Instead of answering *any *of this, let's see...cue the canned generic speech about the nature of love and free will and embracing the Lord to get to heaven and Jesus entering hearts freeing them all from their sins in 3...2...1...) _<giggles> _


God does not interfere with our free will. His ways are not our ways. Being a priest in church does not make you superior to others. Religion was never perfect, and it can never be, our human nature interferes, a priest blessing guns in church is an example of that.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The eternal suffering of hell is not simply pure and endless pain, it is the darkness that consumes your soul. Say you were greedy, and greed consumed you in life. Unless you desire to change and accept love, so too will greed consume you in death. If you were greedy, in hell your soul would always seek more yet never have enough. This is the suffering that you would experience. Love is the only well that can quench the thirst.


Greed may not be the most flattering trait a person can have but if you're suggesting it deserves a divinely mandated eternity of torment, then I can only conclude that your deity is neither loving nor benevolent.  "Monster" is the word I think I would use.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> People will use God as an excuse for horrible atrocities. That doesn't mean that God approves.



If your deity is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent as Christians claim he is, then not only does he approve, he dictated those atrocities.  They happen because he wanted them to.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 13, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> Greed may not be the most flattering trait a person can have but if you're suggesting it deserves a divinely mandated eternity of torment, then I can only conclude that your deity is neither loving nor benevolent.  "Monster" is the word I think I would use.
> 
> 
> 
> If your deity is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent as Christians claim he is, then not only does he approve, he dictated those atrocities.  They happen because he wanted them to.


Which is why Jesus came upon Earth, so that even if we are greedy, we may accept him and choose love over greed.

He does not dictate the atrocities that happen on our planet. He allows them to happen because He does not want to interfere with our free will, in other words He is testing us to see what we will choose in life.


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> He asked: What beliefs? I answered: Love



So the entirety of "what's so great about Heaven", your *entire* answer is just...love? That's it, just "love"...how creative, my human spambot.

Because like I said, the entire *rest* of your post was about Hell and evil and suffering and greed. So again, you didn't answer _anything, _but gave a nice chat about a totally different topic. But you think you answered him just fine I'm sure. Try that on a trivia game show and they're gonna ask you to elaborate! <_smile>_

Maruis, bet you feel silly now for rejecting such a place! They have *love *there! Who knew?_ <snickers more than he should he admits...>_


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## Mambi (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> He does not dictate the atrocities that happen on our planet. He allows them to happen because He does not want to interfere with our free will, in other words He is testing us to see what we will choose in life.



NO HE'S NOT testing your life, becasue you can be a total prick in life and accept Jesus at the last second, and all will be fine with God. You told us that a few posts ago!

Tests in your life only has meaning if you know the goals...but what if the test REALLY is "can you be a good person without the threat of eternal punishment or the bribe of eternal delight"? If THAT'S what religion is about, then you failed totally and I'm going to Heaven. He're humans, we can only guess. But my possibility is equally as valid as yours without the need to invoke your Jesus at all...yet you expect us to take your word on it as reality? HA!

So no, definately not a life test, only the decision at the end has any relevance according to you. Logic dude...do I need to quote you? _<grin>_


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Which is why Jesus came upon Earth, so that even if we are greedy, we may accept him and choose love over greed.



Which was completely pointless if anyone can accept him after death when all doubt would be removed.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> He does not dictate the atrocities that happen on our planet. He allows them to happen because He does not want to interfere with our free will, in other words He is testing us to see what we will choose in life.



An all-knowing, all-powerful deity has no reason to test anyone.  It already knows.  Because that's what it dictated in advance.  By definition.


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## Parabellum3 (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> He asked: What beliefs? I answered: Love


Love isn’t a belief btw, it’s an emotion.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 13, 2021)

Mambi said:


> Maruis, bet you feel silly now for rejecting such a place! They have *love *there! Who knew?_ <snickers more than he should he admits...>_



Meh. I hear there's *more* love in Tir Na Nog.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 13, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> Which was completely pointless if anyone can accept him after death when all doubt would be removed.
> 
> 
> 
> An all-knowing, all-powerful deity has no reason to test anyone.  It already knows.  Because that's what it dictated in advance.  By definition.


Accepting Jesus changes you, it's not only about believing or not believing in Him. It is entirely possible to be righteous in life without knowing about Him, and if you were righteous but did not know, you will get a chance to get to know Him after you die. And then you can accept His sacrifice.

There are lobbyists who lobby for wars in foreign countries for their own profit, there are generals in those wars who command atrocities without batting an eye, and then there are those soldiers who delight in committing these atrocities. They are the ones who will be judged harshly. Being lusty is a sin, but you will be judged differently if you keep it to yourself, or if you delight in harming others. In the end, all sin has to be forgiven for you to enter heaven, the issue is that some people's hearts will be too hardened by evil in order to let Him in and feel sorry for their sins, and without that you cannot truly accept Him. 

God has a reason to test you, for your free will is indeed free. There wouldn't be evil in this world if God abolished our free will, yet in order for true love to emerge there has to be darkness.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Oct 13, 2021)

Christine Vulpes said:


> What does this really mean? Lets assume that the works are actually inspired by this god, and the authors were writing by divination. They wrote its fan fiction.


....do NOT get started on the Bible being a fanfic.  Please.  I've actually had that thought at least once.

It'd explain some of the.... weirder stories, but I'm pretty sure going into the details would break forum rules REALLY fast.


Mambi said:


> <blink-blink> Gun...*blessing *ceremonies? What the actual fu...??? Are they literally preparing for a holy war? Why would they think God would want to bless an instrument that's designed to kill? Actually scratch that last one...but still, this is the weirdest thing I saw all morning!!! _God's love one bullet at a time??? <LOL>_





Minerva_Minx said:


> Chaplain on the nearby base or priest in town will do it monthly and at the start and end of hunting season.


I tried to find Bible verses on blessing tools.

It's.... not going well.  All I'm seeing is a lot of "swords to plowshares"... and ONE "plowshares to swords" reference somewhere in the Book of Joel.  And a few verses after that there's a verse that opens with "put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe."  Which would invoke your fears.

(Mr. Bible Guy, it's Joel Chapter 3 from the Old Testament that I'm referencing if you want to try coming up with a new sermon for us.  Casual look at it and the prior chapters make it look like God's ordering Joel to be a revolutionary.)

Combine that with the meme and Minerva's comment and it occurs to me these people consider guns as tools.  Think of how many other tools get misused and the fact that most people ONLY get to see the misuse, and the WTF effect of a gun blessing ceremony is actually not a surprise.


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 13, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> There are lobbyists who lobby for wars in foreign countries for their own profit, there are generals in those wars who command atrocities without batting an eye, and then there are those soldiers who delight in committing these atrocities. They are the ones who will be judged harshly.



You're familiar with all the parts in your scripture detailing your deities orders to violently execute people? Or the parts where your deity violently executes people? Or the parts where he condones slavery by establishing the rules for owning slaves?



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Being lusty is a sin, but you will be judged differently if you keep it to yourself, or if you delight in harming others. In the end, all sin has to be forgiven for you to enter heaven, the issue is that some people's hearts will be too hardened by evil in order to let Him in and feel sorry for their sins, and without that you cannot truly accept Him.



Very small leap to go from "they are hardened by evil" to "they are evil".   One that is made all the time.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> God has a reason to test you, for your free will is indeed free. There wouldn't be evil in this world if God abolished our free will, yet in order for true love to emerge there has to be darkness.



Did you not understand my last post or are you just ignoring it?


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## Marius Merganser (Oct 14, 2021)

Minerva_Minx said:


> My wife learned there are gun blessing ceremonies in the US.
> I don't have to go to Church on Sundays anymore.



If you want to get out of anything else, you can also tell her about the Rod of Iron Ministries.
They don't just bless guns, they carry them during services.






_
"The Pennsylvania-based church has sporadically appeared in headlines in recent years, including in a 2018 NPR piece highlighting an “armed ceremony” that featured everything from bullet-adorned crowns to AR-15-style rifles being utilized as interpretations of the Holy Bible’s “rod of iron” mention."_

Source

Feel the love.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 14, 2021)

Like I said, it's not about getting out of church orsleeping on Sunday.  It's that religious beliefs are deeply personal and just because some authority figure says being in Church every Sunday, or being good, or follow scripture, doesn't mean they aren't condemning everyone around them for their own profit or edification.  This is why I choose agnosticism over any structured religion.  They could all be right, but equally all wrong.

I wonder on bot to post.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> If you want to get out of anything else, you can also tell her about the Rod of Iron Ministries.
> They don't just bless guns, they carry them during services.
> 
> 
> ...



Hahaha, they look so stupid...they should just go the next logical step, make an altar out of guns and bullets, and literally worship the guns themselves. Cut out the middleman.

But yeah, once again we have a group of people reading a BIble, seeing all the condoned violence in it, and logically assuming that God wants them to do this.

Though in fairness, when over half of the Bible's references to God are descriptions of punishments, tortures, creative slaughters, and petty revenges, I can see where they might get the idea that God's love comes at the tip of a sword instead of the tip of a toungue. Not a lot of actual real love there, but shitloads of threats and fear.

(for real, read the bible yourself. Very few examples of God's _unconditional_ love, even when lives are on the line, but a lot of people *saying* he's loving unconditionally. Same problem with Satan in the bible...everyone *says* he's a liar and a deciever and evil, everyone *refers* to him as a liar and evil and the like, but read closely and you'll see there are no examples of him *actually *lying or deceiving or being evil...it's all heresay! Surprised me too, but facts are facts. I challenged an entire church group to find me an example once, and they all failed. But I'm sure our friend here @IsraelWhiteFox should have no problem presenting a clear-cut example, right? <_LMAO>)_


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## Connor J. Coyote (Oct 14, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> If you want to get out of anything else, you can also tell her about the Rod of Iron Ministries.
> They don't just bless guns, they carry them during services.
> 
> 
> ...


Eh.... I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek here..... But, if not - in any case this photo looks a bit too fake to me.... (especially if there's children in the scene). ☺ Just sayin'.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Eh.... I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek here..... But, if not - in any case this photo looks a bit too fake to me.... (especially if there's children in the scene). ☺ Just sayin'.



I dunno...the "rod of iron ministries" seems to check out as real...though they are *obviously *a fringe group that do not represent the main religion. A funny one too! <_grin>_
I can kind of see it as plausible at least, there are enough wingnuts out there for sure, and if this is a single church group they're deep in gun country. 

Still, in _their _minds, they are absolutely correct in their interpretation and presumably everyone else is wrong and not worshipping God correctly. Funny how that works.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 14, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Eh.... I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek here..... But, if not - in any case this photo looks a bit too fake to me.... (especially if there's children in the scene). ☺ Just sayin'.











						In pictures: US gun-blessing ceremony
					

Hundreds of World Peace and Unification Sanctuary church members get their guns blessed in Pennsylvania.



					www.bbc.com
				












						Hundreds gather at church for blessing ceremony featuring AR-15s
					

World Peace and Unification Sanctuary in Pennsylvania believes the AR-15 symbolizes the "rod of iron" in the biblical book of Revelation




					www.cbsnews.com
				












						Russian church wants to ban priests from blessing weapons of mass destruction
					

The new draft rules on blessing military equipment will still allow priests to sanctify "personal weapons."




					www.newsweek.com
				












						God bless these guns
					






					www.nbcnews.com
				




Truth is often stranger than fiction....


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## Kumali (Oct 14, 2021)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Eh.... I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-in-cheek here..... But, if not - in any case this photo looks a bit too fake to me.... (especially if there's children in the scene). ☺ Just sayin'.



They appear to be quite real. A Google search for "rod of iron ministries" brings up plenty, including their own website. (Which I won't link here because fuck them. But they're definitely everything I expected them to be: racist, seditionist, etc.)

But after all, Jesus himself is quoted (by Matthew's pseudonymous ghostwriter) as saying: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:34-37, KJV) So Christianity's tendencies toward violence and cultism go all the way back to its founder, according to their own "holy book."


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

Kumali said:


> They appear to be quite real. A Google search for "rod of iron ministries" brings up plenty, including their own website. (Which I won't link here because fuck them. But they're definitely everything I expected them to be: racist, seditionist, etc.)
> 
> But after all, Jesus himself is quoted (by Matthew's pseudonymous ghostwriter) as saying: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:34-37, KJV) So Christianity's tendencies toward violence and cultism go all the way back to its founder, according to their own "holy book."



But...but I thought God loved his children equally??? <_snicker_> Not only is God demanding love, he's demanding *ALL* the love, even trying to lessen the love between me and my family! That's cult-talk and I run away. What if you love Jesus more than God, does he get jealous? Oh wait, i forgot, they are the same when it's convenient for the story so no love triangles invoked. 

So if Jesus said himself "I have _not _come in peace", and Jesus is God, then by simple logic God is not a peaceful god to us. Good to have it confirmed biblically.


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## TyraWadman (Oct 14, 2021)

OP, would you say you are the traditional follower or perhaps a more revised and modern version on the Christian ways? Not trying to sass, I just don't know if there's a proper name for it.

Example: grandma from 50 years ago thinks homosexuality is a sin and left handed people are signs of the devil- then there are those that say 'im Christian but the good kind' meaning they don't view either of those as a problem.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> OP, would you say you are the traditional follower or perhaps a more revised and modern version on the Christian ways? Not trying to sass, I just don't know if there's a proper name for it.
> 
> Example: grandma from 50 years ago thinks homosexuality is a sin and left handed people are signs of the devil- then there are those that say 'im Christian but the good kind' meaning they don't view either of those as a problem.



Actually thank you for reminding me. @IsraelWhiteFox , what's _your _take on God's views of homosexuality? Nice and clear, love is love so does God love us as we are or not?
'Cause that's a dealbreaker right away for a lot of us if we gotta give up on our own sexuality and self. Might as well clear it up right away...


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## Foxridley (Oct 14, 2021)

Blessing weapons is nothing new. Remember the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 14, 2021)

Mambi said:


> But...but I thought God loved his children equally??? <_snicker_> Not only is God demanding love, he's demanding *ALL* the love, even trying to lessen the love between me and my family!


Uhm, angels also loved, and I mean really loved humans.  I mean, that's how you get Nephilim and Gibhorim.  Cambion I think is demon and human pairing.  Oh, and witches are a real thing as is magic.  Dinosaurs are living monsters.  There is no space, that's heaven  no hell, that's the Earth's core.  And a lake of fire is a pyroclastic cloud or molten lava.  So "God" is science and discovery.  Which is good, because intelligent design was a response to Darwinism in 1913.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 14, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> OP, would you say you are the traditional follower or perhaps a more revised and modern version on the Christian ways? Not trying to sass, I just don't know if there's a proper name for it.
> 
> Example: grandma from 50 years ago thinks homosexuality is a sin and left handed people are signs of the devil- then there are those that say 'im Christian but the good kind' meaning they don't view either of those as a problem.


I am the type of follower who seeks to avoid the centuries upon centuries of layers added upon God and His word by man and our imperfect nature.


Mambi said:


> Actually thank you for reminding me. @IsraelWhiteFox , what's _your _take on God's views of homosexuality? Nice and clear, love is love so does God love us as we are or not?
> 'Cause that's a dealbreaker right away for a lot of us if we gotta give up on our own sexuality and self. Might as well clear it up right away...


When Jesus came upon Earth, He produced a new covenant with His people, and He abolished the laws of the old. That is why it is called the new covenant. Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, which means that according to the new covenant it is not a sin.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I am the type of follower who seeks to avoid the centuries upon centuries of layers added upon God and His word by man and our imperfect nature.
> 
> When Jesus came upon Earth, He produced a new covenant with His people, and He abolished the laws of the old. That is why it is called the new covenant. Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, which means that according to the new covenant it is not a sin.



THANK you, for real, that was simple language that was clear and concise. No needless sermons and you stuck to the point. See, it wasn't so hard now, was it? <_giggle_>

Also, glad to hear you say that, because it shows you're willing to think at least a _little _for yourself and actually recognize all love as real love. _<nods respectfully>_


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 14, 2021)

Mambi said:


> THANK you, for real, that was simple language that was clear and concise. No needless sermons and you stuck to the point. See, it wasn't so hard now, was it? <_giggle_>
> 
> Also, glad to hear you say that, because it shows you're willing to think at least a _little _for yourself and actually recognize all love as real love. _<nods respectfully>_


Yes, all love is real love, and the reason I wish to help people overcome sin, such as lust, is that lust in it's essence is misdirected love. When you're lonely, lacking a real romantic attachment, you resort to lust to feed your need for love, but it can never satisfy you. It does satisfy you for a moment, but you end up lacking real love and in the long run you are miserable. Regarding greed, greed is love towards money, but it is destructive to those around you. So many people suffer due to the greed of a minority. Greed starts wars, it kills and yet those who are greedy are never satisfied. This is why I preach about Christ and His love. It saved me from lust, it saved me from seeking wealth at the expense of others, and it makes me want to help other people, even if I am terrible at it.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Yes, all love is real love, and the reason I wish to help people overcome sin, such as lust, is that lust in it's essence is misdirected love. When you're lonely, lacking a real romantic attachment, you resort to lust to feed your need for love, but it can never satisfy you. It does satisfy you for a moment, but you end up lacking real love and in the long run you are miserable. Regarding greed, greed is love towards money, but it is destructive to those around you. So many people suffer due to the greed of a minority. Greed starts wars, it kills and yet those who are greedy are never satisfied. This is why I preach about Christ and His love. It saved me from lust, it saved me from seeking wealth at the expense of others, and it makes me want to help other people, even if I am terrible at it.



"Lusts" as sins? No, actions are sins, lust is a feeling, it's what you do with it. With true love and passion, I take out mutual lust with my lover constantly. There is no sin at all as it's all pleasure (and between married people at that), and no evils or power games or greed in the slightest...just mutual love and lustful passion. Again it's what you *do* that defines you.

But you were saved from lust and found God, eh? _<putting some pieces together from previous posts>_ Hated your furry self on discovery but found peace through Jesus? But ok with homosexuality so it's not a self-lothing sort of thing presumably. Saved from a "sort of...addiction" but most drug addicts would just say "addiction to drugs" or "addiction" and drugs would be assumed. Lonely so driven to the internet. Unless you are surrounded by conservative christian homophobes anything gay related should be no issue either...

Question: Your "addiction" you were saved from was "lustful thoughts towards furry porn", wans't it? Is *that* why you're posting specifically here to preach??


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 14, 2021)

Mambi said:


> "Lusts" as sins? No, actions are sins, lust is a feeling, it's what you do with it. With true love and passion, I take out mutual lust with my lover constantly. There is no sin at all as it's all pleasure (and between married people at that), and no evils or power games or greed in the slightest...just mutual love and lustful passion. Again it's what you *do* that defines you.
> 
> But you were saved from lust and found God, eh? _<putting some pieces together from previous posts>_ Hated your furry self on discovery but found peace through Jesus? But ok with homosexuality so it's not a self-lothing sort of thing presumably. Saved from a "sort of...addiction" but most drug addicts would just say "addiction to drugs" or "addiction" and drugs would be assumed. Lonely so driven to the internet. Unless you are surrounded by conservative christian homophobes anything gay related should be no issue either...
> 
> Question: Your "addiction" you were saved from was "lustful thoughts towards furry porn", wans't it? Is *that* why you're posting specifically here to preach??


I think it's okay to be passionate in a relationship, the type of lust I'm referring to is the one to which you succumb to when you're lonely, the one the strength of which only grows in your isolation and which causes you to daydream about it, be it furry or human, and which ensnares you, and many people, and furries in higher number succumb to it because they're lonely, it's pretty hard to find someone like yourself since we are a rather rare breed. That is the bondage of the devil I'm talking about. This is also what made me hate myself for being a furry. But then through a long process of finding Jesus I came to accept myself for who I am, and the lust that occupied my mind was replaced with love towards others, and I'm no longer thirsty (Drinking from the wrong well).  The part of the reason I came here to preach is to help those who believe but hate themselves for the lust that is often accompanied with being unable to find someone like yourself who would accept you for who you are. The devil sees this weakness and enslaves you.

Another way the devil attacks you, and what I came here to try to counter in believers is the belief that you are going to hell for being a furry, since so many Christians would tell you that. But Christ didn't come here to condemn us, he came here to save us, and believing that you're going to hell for being who you are is also how the devil ensnares and tortures you. In non-believers he does this also, by making you feel like you are an abomination or something like that which destroys your self-esteem and makes you hate others and yourself, which is his goal.

Another one of his goals is to antagonize God in the eyes of people who are different, and he does this very well, since most Christians never really find Jesus and believe that God is what they want him to be. The wrath of God in the old testament was satisfied with the sacrifice of Jesus, and Jesus took on the weight of our sin and if we follow His example and decide that we wish to be righteous in our life, our sin will be washed away. You don't believe in God? If you're righteous in life, you will get a chance to accept him when you die, and your sins will be washed away. It is just that Jesus wants you to love Him in life, and to be a disciple of His, because once you truly accept Him a love towards your fellow brothers and sisters is born, and that is how He wants us to live in our life. 

The part regarding loving Him more than your parents? Yes, it may seem controversial, but once you love Him more than anyone else, His love fills you and you share that love towards everybody, even complete strangers.

I apologize for my very zealous entry into this culture.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I think it's okay to be passionate in a relationship, the type of lust I'm referring to is the one to which you succumb to when you're lonely, the one the strength of which only grows in your isolation and which causes you to daydream about it, be it furry or human, and which ensnares you, and many people, and furries in higher number succumb to it because they're lonely, it's pretty hard to find someone like yourself since we are a rather rare breed. That is the bondage of the devil I'm talking about. This is also what made me hate myself for being a furry.



Ok, I'm parsing this. "the type of lust I'm referring to is the one you succumb to..." says nothing. My wife makes me lusty and I succumb to her. Now, you keep referring to "*it*" as the specific that you then describe in generic "you want it" terms while still not saying what "it" is. Read for yourself above, I just quoted you. not *once* have you actually said what the "it" is you're referring to. See why you're impossible to talk to? You literally aren't saying anything.

"the lust you succumb to" literally just means "the desire you decide to enjoy". Again, context is *huge* here...I lust for a pizza and enjoy every bite. Am I evil? There's a lot of room for interpretation and that's what you're doing...you're leaving an empty nebulous "thing" that that reader sees themself in, like a horoscope. The rest then goes on about irrelevant stuff:



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> But then through a long process of finding Jesus I came to accept myself for who I am, and the lust that occupied my mind was replaced with love towards others, and I'm no longer thirsty (Drinking from the wrong well).  The part of the reason I came here to preach is to* help those who believe but hate themselves for the lust that is often accompanied with being unable to find someone like yourself who would accept you for who you are.* The devil sees this weakness and enslaves you.



Again, what the hell did you just say? What specifically are you accusing us furries of succumbing to? Gay love? Furry porn? You're still not saying anything...



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Another way the devil attacks you, and what I came here to try to counter in believers is the belief that you are going to hell for being a furry, since so many Christians would tell you that. But Christ didn't come here to condemn us, he came here to save us, and believing that you're going to hell for being who you are is also how the devil ensnares and tortures you. In non-believers he does this also, by making you feel like you are an abomination or something like that which destroys your self-esteem and makes you hate others and yourself, which is his goal.



The *Devil* makes us feel like something that destroys your self-esteem??? God's first rule is you're not worthy of him, nor is any love you could have worth as much as your love to him, and you're born a sinner regardless of your actions, and he looms the threat of Hell to have something for him to save you from as your life is a test to see if you're worthy of being in his mere presence and even then if you don't accept his son you're dirt in his eyes...need I go on??? You can't be *that* blind, can you? <LOL>



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Another one of his goals is to antagonize God in the eyes of people who are different, and he does this very well, since most Christians never really find Jesus and believe that God is what they want him to be. The wrath of God in the old testament was satisfied with the sacrifice of Jesus, and Jesus took on the weight of our sin and if we follow His example and decide that we wish to be righteous in our life, our sin will be washed away. You don't believe in God? If you're righteous in life, you will get a chance to accept him when you die, and your sins will be washed away. It is just that Jesus wants you to love Him in life, and to be a disciple of His, because once you truly accept Him a love towards your fellow brothers and sisters is born, and that is how He wants us to live in our life.



<_yawn_> ...and this is relevant to the original point how exactly?



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The part regarding loving Him more than your parents? Yes, it may seem controversial, but once you love Him more than anyone else, His love fills you and you share that love towards everybody, even complete strangers.



"seems controversial" is a polite way of putting it, but I'll let that slide...you're only describing ecstasy, like the drug Molly, and the lust I have for my lover. Just another way of saying "I devote my life to him and all love flow from him through me" flowery language. Your Heaven would diminish me as a person, yet you say Satan would do this as a trap? You may wish to reconsider...as this goal of "love to all" can be achieved in many ways just by being a good person, no God necessary!


IsraelWhiteFox said:


> I apologize for my very zealous entry into this culture.



_<giggle> _Oh don't worry, you're fun. _<boops you on the nose playfully> _But no sermons, they're a waste of everyone's time and you know it. Just chat! Your views are simply indefensible and you're not really trying either, so frankly I think at best, you're just a typical bible-thumper who's just ranting a bit to make themselves feel better...and at worst you're a con-artist evangelical trying to hook some bait, so you might as well just say your views plainly and save the speeches for church, ok?

Either way, you're a funny read when bored and I'll maybe take you seriously when you give me a reason to, but you're _*sooo *_cliche man...do you have any idea how many times I've had these conversations? Like almost word for word? I know when someone's talking intelligently, and I know when someone's just talking gibberish and _purposely_ saying nothing (like a horoscope, letting people see what they want)...and you're cleanly in camp #2

But since you're here and as long as you play nice..._<tosses you an apple with a grin>_ Don't worry, this one's _just _a fruit, no strings attached and it definitely won't make you smarter. _That_ fruit was eaten a long time ago and we've learned so much since.


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## IsraelWhiteFox (Oct 14, 2021)

Mambi said:


> Ok, I'm parsing this. "the type pf lust I'm referring to is the one you succumb to..." says nothing. My wife makes me lusty and I succumb to her. Now, you keep referring to "*it* as the specific that you then describe in generic "you want it" terms while still not saying what "it" is. Read for yourself above, I just quoted you. not *once* have you actually said what the "it" is you're referring to. See why you're impossible to talk to? You literally aren't saying anything.
> 
> "the lust you succumb to" literally just means "the desire you decide to enjoy". Again, context is *huge* here...I lust for a pizza and enjoy every bite. Am I evil? There's a lot of room for interpretation and that's what you're doing...you're leaving an empty nebulous "thing" that that reader sees themself in, like a horoscope. The rest then goes on about irrelevant stuff.


Okay, yes, I'm not being clear enough. The lust I'm describing is the lust I succumbed to, which is having your mind entirely consumed by porn. Now of course, this is not true of most furries, but there are those whose minds are really messed up by porn, an addiction forms against which you can't even fight, constant intrusive thoughts, you can't function. This is what I'm describing as slavery to the devil.


Mambi said:


> Again, what the hell did you just say? What specifically are you accusing us furries of succumbing to? Gay love? Furry porn? You're still not saying anything...


We succumb to nothing that other people do not, except that in our case it is pretty hard to actually find someone like ourselves who has the same interests, thus rendering true love very hard to reach, which means that people end up falling in the above mentioned trap of porn addiction which only grows, and makes you feel increasingly miserable because you need love and affection and porn doesn't provide that, but only temporary relief.


Mambi said:


> The *Devil* makes us feel like something that destroys your self-esteem??? God's first rule is you're not worthy of him, nor is any love you could have worth as much as your love to him, and you're born a sinner regardless of your actions, and he looms the threat of Hell to have something for him to save you from as your life is a test to see if you're worthy of being in his mere presence...need I go on??? You can't be *that* blind, can you? <LOL>


Believe it or not, God wants us to love ourselves. As I already said previously, He loves us, but He hates sin. When He created us He saw that we choose such things as war and that we tolerate poverty, and His hatred of darkness is such that the only way He forgave for sin was through sacrifice, which is what the Jews do. But this didn't satisfy Him, so He took on human form and made the ultimate sacrifice. He paid the price for our sins Himself, and in the process He also provided us with His word via the bible, so that we may strive towards righteousness. He sees us as His children, but He is also the judge. If you were truly evil in your life, you will be judged for it. Otherwise, you can accept His sacrifice, be purified, and enter heaven. The devil on the other hand will try his best to lead you astray, to make you feel worthless and to turn you towards darkness. Giving you a mind-consuming porn addiction will make you hate yourself.


Mambi said:


> <_yawn_> ...and this is relevant to the original point how exactly?


The original point is that the devil always seeks to ensnare you in darkness, and whenever he does he prevents you from being righteous, in the case of a porn addiction by making you feel worthless, thus making you withdraw yourself from the world and suffer.


Mambi said:


> "seems controversial" is a polite way of putting it, but I'll let that slide...you're only describing ecstasy, like the drug Molly, and the lust I have for my lover. Just another way of saying "I devote my life to him and all love flow from him through me" flowery language. Your Heaven would diminish me as a person, yet you say Satan would do this as a trap? You may wish to reconsider...as this goal of "love to all" can be achieved in many ways just by being a good person, no God necessary!


How would Heaven diminish you as a person? You desire sin? Loving your lover with passion is no sin. The trap of evil is that you end up in bondage to certain sin, in case of greed you harm others by it, in case of the type of lust I mentioned before you harm yourself and thus you cannot love others. The devil always seeks to make you as weak as possible, or as harmful to others as possible.


Mambi said:


> _<giggle> _Oh don't worry, you're fun. _<boops you on the nose playfully> _But no sermons, they're a waste of everyone's time and you know it. Just chat! Your views are simply indefensible and you're not really trying either, so frankly I think at best, you're just a typical bible-thumper who's just ranting a bit to make themselves feel better...and at worst you're a con-artist evangelical trying to hook some bait, so you might as well just say your views plainly and save the speeches for church, ok?
> 
> Either way, you're a funny read when bored and I'll maybe take you seriously when you give me a reason to, but you're _*sooo *_cliche man...do you have any idea how many times I've had these conversations? Like almost word for word? I know when someone's talking intelligently, and I know when someone's just talking gibberish and _purposely_ saying nothing (like a horoscope, letting people see what they want)...and you're cleanly in camp #2
> 
> But since you're here and as long as you play nice..._<tosses you an apple with a grin>_ Don't worry, this one's _just _a fruit, no strings attached and it definitely won't make you smarter. _That_ fruit was eaten a long time ago and we've learned so much since.


If I do end up writing sermons I'm going to put something like WARNING - RELIGIOUS in the name of the thread so that those who want to avoid them do, and those who do believe in God and actually suffer because they think they're not good enough find relief. I suffered greatly due to the porn addiction, even as an atheist, and after I found God the intrusive thoughts have mostly gone away and I only seek to help those who actually want help.


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## Parabellum3 (Oct 14, 2021)

Marius Merganser said:


> If you want to get out of anything else, you can also tell her about the Rod of Iron Ministries.
> They don't just bless guns, they carry them during services.
> 
> 
> ...


They should technically bless the ammo since that’s the thing that kills, and not the gun itself.


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 14, 2021)

They do.  And use it in their crowns.


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## Mambi (Oct 14, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Okay, yes, I'm not being clear enough. The lust I'm describing is the lust I succumbed to, which is having your mind entirely consumed by porn. Now of course, this is not true of most furries, but there are those whose minds are really messed up by porn, an addiction forms against which you can't even fight, constant intrusive thoughts, you can't function. This is what I'm describing as slavery to the devil.



See? Clear simple language...that you purposely avoided using. You could have said that *anytime *but you refused to.

But now you're clear. _*You're trying to save us from porn addiction*_, as we're all deviant furries who can't control our sexual desires? _<huge eye roll> _This is what drove you to post your sermons on a furry forum? *That *was the lure that brought you to save us?? This ought to be good...




IsraelWhiteFox said:


> We succumb to nothing that other people do not, except that in our case it is pretty hard to actually find someone like ourselves who has the same interests, thus rendering true love very hard to reach, which means that people end up falling in the above mentioned trap of porn addiction which only grows, and makes you feel increasingly miserable because you need love and affection and porn doesn't provide that, but only temporary relief.



This just gets better and better..._<grabs popcorn>_



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> Believe it or not, God wants us to love ourselves. As I already said previously, He loves us, but He hates sin. When He created us He saw that we choose such things as war and that we tolerate poverty, and His hatred of darkness is such that the only way He forgave for sin was through sacrifice, which is what the Jews do. But this didn't satisfy Him, so He took on human form and made the ultimate sacrifice. He paid the price for our sins Himself, and in the process He also provided us with His word via the bible, so that we may strive towards righteousness. He sees us as His children, but He is also the judge. If you were truly evil in your life, you will be judged for it. Otherwise, you can accept His sacrifice, be purified, and enter heaven. The devil on the other hand will try his best to lead you astray, to make you feel worthless and to turn you towards darkness. Giving you a mind-consuming porn addiction will make you hate yourself.



Again, you just assumed that you're talking to porn addicts? Why, becasue we're furries? YOU may have become one but that's all on you, and porn comes in all flavours, many tasteful and loving and sensual. Your loss of control is not ours, and your lack of ability to go down a dark path does not reflect on the *PATH*, only the person. Porn didn't fail you, you failed porn.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> The original point is that the devil always seeks to ensnare you in darkness, and whenever he does he prevents you from being righteous, in the case of a porn addiction by making you feel worthless, thus making you withdraw yourself from the world and suffer.



Porn doesn't make you feel worthless, your personal lack of personal control did that along with your own issues. It could have been anything, but that's your failing. You're basically like an AA member demanding that all alcohol be scrubbed from the planet because *they* can;'t control themselves, not thinking of those who have no issues at all having a drink or 2 with friends harmlessly.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> How would Heaven diminish you as a person? You desire sin? Loving your lover with passion is no sin. The trap of evil is that you end up in bondage to certain sin, in case of greed you harm others by it, in case of the type of lust I mentioned before you harm yourself and thus you cannot love others. The devil always seeks to make you as weak as possible, or as harmful to others as possible.



We've been through this, you just ignored it from me and @Marius Merganser , Heaven has no point to existence, and a lifetime of mindless love that by design minimizes the love I have for my family is not something that feels good for my spiritual growth. But then in Heaven, personal growth is irrelevant as you've found God so no issues, right? Just trust the master has all the answers, feel the joy, and do nothing...forever, plus the lack of proper free will feels like a spiritual lobotomy. *That* diminishes me as a person.



IsraelWhiteFox said:


> If I do end up writing sermons I'm going to put something like WARNING - RELIGIOUS in the name of the thread so that those who want to avoid them do, and those who do believe in God and actually suffer because they think they're not good enough find relief. I suffered greatly due to the porn addiction, even as an atheist, and after I found God the intrusive thoughts have mostly gone away and I only seek to help those who actually want help.



You don't get it do you? Religious is not the problem!!! You can be as religious as you want (moderator's permitting). As long as you don't just mindlessly ramble on and on becasue that's stupid and pointless and annoying and condensing. Just do what you kind are trying to do lately...speak normally and actually *say* something, not bullshit that all "interpretation and feelings" when asked about specifics. It makes you feel like a liar with something to hide.

Your sermons never say anything meaningful and only belong in CHURCH. You know, the place you want us to go to? We'll hear it THERE if we choose to. Even this thread is named "come back home" and not "Let God save you", and you took 3 pages before you said literally anything at all, so you know you're being vague on purpose.

Meanwhile, if you're going to say that you're here to save us from porn addictions that you lost yourself in, this is going to be very funny indeed!!! <_teeheehee_>


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## Minerva_Minx (Oct 14, 2021)

Mambi said:


> See? Clear simple language...that you purposely avoided using. You could have said that *anytime *but you refused to.
> 
> But now you're clear. _*You're trying to save us from porn addiction*_, as we're all deviant furries who can't control our sexual desires? _<huge eye roll> _This is what drove you to post your sermons on a furry forum? *That *was the lure that brought you to save us?? This ought to be good...
> 
> ...


Too long. Didn't.....

What the ever loving f***...

*the following nas been censored by Satan as Lucifer tries to calm down the rampaging woman.  God would like you to know hell hath no... you know what, Universal Management would like you to enjoy yojrself at Olive Gard....Jesus Christ!! ohh,, that's not good.  Oh Hell, this is... Saints and sinners of virtue....this is a not  good.  please stand by and enjoy the fine, sultry Latin beats of Mr. Carlos Santana*

OK, I think I'm good.  Porn addiction, sex addidction, hyper masculinity - these aren't COVID-19, the flu, explosive diarrhea or a communicable disease.  They are SINGULAR, Specific to ONE AND EXACTLY ONE person mental health problems.

*controlling anger*

Reporting thread and moving on to better things.


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## Kumali (Oct 14, 2021)

IsraelWhiteFox said:


> porn addiction



I'll just leave these here:









						Science Stopped Believing in Porn Addiction. You Should, Too
					

What does it mean that religion, not porn use, predicts porn-related problems?




					www.psychologytoday.com
				












						Is Porn Addiction Really a Disorder?
					

Shame is an important factor in problematic porn use.




					www.psychologytoday.com
				












						Pornography addiction is not real according to leading psychologists — here's when porn can be unhealthy
					

Pornography addiction isn't recognized by the American Psychological Association. Some may feel they are addicted due to social or religious pressure.




					www.insider.com


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