# Reader's freedom



## panzergulo (Oct 24, 2009)

First of all, this is not going to be a brief post. If you don't like long posts about something interesting that could spark some intellectual discussion about literature and writer-reader relationship, you still have the chance to leave. I'll report all "tl;dr" posts as derailing the thread.

Second of all, I start this with a few examples. Or cases, if you want to call them that.


I have an ongoing story where one of the characters is a sociopathic murderer. He cheats and lies to get the sympathy of other people, and when he doesn't find people useful to him anymore, he kills them, most often quickly and efficiently.
Some of my readers hate him. One of them said really straight in their comment that they want the character to die and go away. I was rather surprised by this sort of response at first, but later I found it interesting. Part of me felt even proud, because I was able to create something that can evoke such emotion from my readers. And still, tiny part of me felt a bit hurt, because after all, the character is mine and I have put a lot of time and effort on him... and then my readers don't want him. But, I let it go away and decided to be positive about it; my writing has to be good, because I receive so strong response from my readers.

In one story of mine there is rather regular interaction between a male and a female character, that turns a bit adult before the end. The piece is nowhere near erotica or porn, in the last paragraph the couple just decide to have sex spontaneously. The whole scene is a bit of a inside joke.
One reader, who had no idea about the inside joke, commented they didn't like the story. I said I'm sorry for that and pointed out I had tagged the story appropriately and there was a warning in the description, so the reader could have helped themselves and not read the story. Then I thanked them for the comment, because it was feedback nonetheless. The reader replied to my reply and said the story is unrealistic, with rather harsh words. I thought the bone had been clean already, they had said their opinion and I had replied and thanked them for the comment, but they insisted continuing the discussion. I moved the thread to PM and ended it quickly, saying that the story is a piece of fiction and it was sort of a free write, so I didn't know my characters were going to do that in the first place. The reader replied again. I decided to drop it and leave it be.

In a short story of mine two males have a road trip and a bit of a mishap during it. One of my readers commented that one of the male characters is rather feminine in the story. I was surprised, because I had never seen the character in such a light. We had sort of a brief but very interesting discussion about the story, and I learned to see my own work in a bit different light. I still feel kind of fortunate the reader decided to tell their opinion about the story that one time. Sometimes I have learned the most from my own stories when other people have had totally another view to them.

In a story of another writer there is a good guy, who brings some trouble upon himself because he decides to tell the truth about one not so nice incident involving a violent female to the violent female's eighteen year old little sister. The discussion doesn't end well in the story, the eighteen year old leaves the scene crying, yelling at the good guy, wondering how someone so good can say something so horrible about her big sister.
I commented the story and said the good guy is a sort of an asshole in that particular episode, because he could prevent the whole scene by not telling anything, or telling a white lie. Then I pointed out the irony; the good guy brought trouble upon himself by being honest. Then I said I had enjoyed the story, because it was interesting and had detailed and multi-sided plot and character interaction.
The writer of the story didn't respond so well. To keep it short, they said I was wrong and then got personal with me. To my shame, I have to admit I didn't drop it, but continued the conversation, telling about opinions, Mary Sue and reader's freedom and bunch of other stuff, and the conversation got a bit ugly before it ended.

Once I read very interesting story about two characters, who both represent different factions. To keep it short, the other one is from oppressing culture, and the other one is from oppressed culture, both cultures living in around the same area. The story is of course told in sympathetic light for the oppressed culture... well, readers are most often on the side of the regular Joes and small men, oppressors are most often portrayed as evil.
I pointed out different view to the story in my comment. In my opinion, both the characters are as foolish, as they are equally hostile towards each other's cultures, totally unwilling to adopt or at least accept the views of the other culture. Then I said I had enjoyed the story and it was well written and some other positive things.
The next morning I had a deleted comment in my message center and after figuring out from where could it be, I checked the writer's gallery and learned they had deleted the story. So, obviously, they hadn't really liked my alternate view to the story, had replied badly to my comment, regretted it and then deleted the story.


So, what do you think about all this? Do you have your own experiences about alternate views to your stories or stories of other people, and what kind of responses and reactions these views and opinions have created? Is there such thing as reader's freedom? Is a story totally subjective thing, how it is interpreted is relative only to the experiences, opinions and world view of the reader, or are there "wrong" and "right" way to read a story? Has the writer even the right to correct the reader, if the reader's views to the story are totally opposite from the writer's? Is writer's negative response to a comment only a sign of inexperience and Mary Sue syndrome? Is there such thing as opinion? What is an opinion, compared to a comment, feedback and/or critique?

Tell about your own experiences. Discuss about reader's freedom. What are your opinions about opinions?

(Olsou, sou sori abaut bÃ¤Ã¤d grÃ¤mmer Ã¤nd spelling, it iis kainda Ã¶Ã¶rly hier in Finland ;P)


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## AshleyAshes (Oct 24, 2009)

To put it simply, I think there will always be fans that don't like a character or a turn that's taken with a story that they are fans of. You see it all the time and in every form of media that tells stories.


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## Volpino (Oct 24, 2009)

The magazine I worked for in college returned reader comments to the writer. On one occasion we received in the mail on the same day two letters from writers. One thanked us for the reviews, saying that it was unfortunate more magazines didn't have the same practice. The other basically said, "How DARE you tell me why you didn't publish my story and while I'm at it, how DARE you not publish my story!"

The letters were both opened and discussed during our Executive Board meeting. While we were all shocked by the negative response, we were also in total agreement on what to do about our current policy, viz not change it at all.

The magazine was founded to help new writers. At least ten writers, as of when I was there almost twenty years ago, went on to win the L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future contest. Two went on to lucrative writing contracts and one of those, most Star Wars fans now know by name. I know of at least two more published nationally since then and that's from seeing them on bookstore bookshelves. I don't track things anymore.

The first two rules of the military apply to giving and receiving comments. The first rule is CYA (Cover your rear.) Be nice and polite in your communication. Make only statements that can be easily substantiated and understood. Always maintain a level of complete professionalism. If you receive harsh treatment after that, then at least you have the comfort of knowing that your part in the exchange was correct and untouchable.

The second rule is STFU (Shut the heck up). Unless further clarification is absolutely needed, only speak once. The correct response is usually: "Yes, sir," "no sir" or "Thank you sir." Unlike in the military, you have the option of completely ignoring what you disagree with. If you disagree with it, then thank the writer or reviewer for their time and STFU.


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## M. LeRenard (Oct 24, 2009)

I don't have a lot of experiences like that, I guess.  My arguments usually come about when a writer responds to a critique I've given in an argumentative way, and when I don't see their point clearly (or think my point still stands) I press the matter.  Which generally has not so much to do with the story itself as with the way in which the story is written.  Actually, I suppose I don't comment too much on stories themselves because I understand it's all subjective, and I realize that if you write it well enough you make the most cliche and boring story sound good to a lot of readers.
But so far as that goes, yes, writing is an art form, so yes, people are allowed to interpret it however the crap they want.  Fact is, even if the author has one idea about the story when writing it, sometimes he makes mistakes in clarity that muddy that idea, which leads to different interpretations.  What writers should take away from comments like yours, panzer, is not that you failed to read their minds, but that they failed to make their original idea clear enough for everybody.  Not that that should be a big concern; even if you do everything possible to point the reader toward your original thought, some people will always read it differently.  Because different people think about things in different ways.
So far as 'right' and 'wrong' ways to read a story, I'd say sort of.  I mean (and here I'm using the physicist's technique of looking at limits to better understand a problem), if you wrote a story about a dog who goes to the beach with an opossum, and someone told you they thought it was about a pterodactyl feasting on the remains of a college basketball player, you could probably safely tell them that they must have misunderstood something.  But when it comes to things like, for example, the story you read about the two warring cultures, I don't think any [reasonable] interpretation is 'right' or 'wrong', because they all make sense to some degree.  And honestly, it could be that the author of that story saw your point and felt ashamed, because that wasn't his original intent, so now he's trying to fix it to make his original intent clearer.
Anyway, since you're dealing with people, you get every answer under the sun.  The simplest solution is to write mostly for yourself and hope that some others kind of like it.


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## Scarborough (Oct 24, 2009)

Personally, I love feedback. Anything I can get.

A week or two ago, I was talking about my stories in a chatroom and somebody told me that he never read my stories, that he hated them, that he thought they were just boring and stupid and wangsty and "random." I re-evaluated a lot of my stories, and I noticed that a common plotline went as follows:

Character thinks about world in a surrealist way
Character uses the word "existential" at least three times to describe his/her feelings
Character meets completely ridiculous death

I didn't know it, but I had published (on a forum) a good 10-20 stories like that (and had another 10 unpublished that were like that). And I had written so many of them because they were just plain fun to write. But anyway, it got me to re-evaluate what I write about. Within the past week, my stories haven't gotten less "random," but have gotten less wangsty and stupid. In my opinion, at least.

Which happens to be the most influential comment I've got in a long time.

As far as alternative viewpoints go, I encourage them for my writing. Most of my shorter stuff is surrealist/bizarro and not meant to be taken literally. And I feel like alternative-viewpoint comments are especially interesting in a workshop-type setting, where writers never even knew that a theme was developing under their hands.

And unfortunately, people seem to take criticism personally, or take it too far. Ultimately, the author decides what gets kept in the story and what gets thrown out. Critiques are just suggestions, and sometimes terrible suggestions at that. I've never been completely chewed out for critiquing before, but I've seen people get very defensive about their stuff.

I think something people tend to forget about writing/publishing is that fiction (or literary nonfiction, I guess) is a good. If you were baking bread and a loaf came out and you sold it to someone and that someone told you that the bread tasted a little doughy, would you get defensive and say that it's actually good and that they're just not enjoying it properly? Or would you think about what kind of bread you're baking and if it's supposed to taste like that? Same goes for fiction. If someone tells you that your main character is really droll and boring and whatnot, do you tell them that they're dumb and to get out, or do you see if your main character is supposed to act like that?

And I think sometimes stories aren't supposed to cater to the masses. Donald Barthelme certainly didn't cater to a mainstream teenaged populace. You have to be selective about who you're catering your fiction to. If it's intended for twenty year old men and a twelve year old girl tells you that your story's boring, do you take her opinion into account? And to what degree?

I think there's a right and wrong way to write a story. You need at least a handle on the basics, and if you're going to try some tricks, you better know what's been tried and what's worked and what hasn't. Saying that there are no bad stories is like saying that there's no moldy bread. I mean, if I wrote something like the following, I would never expect to see it published in _The New Yorker_:

the cat upside-down beefy contemplating ebullion scarab meth mylanta comme on dit d'etre bon

Clearly nonsensical. Similarly, I can't have things happen in a story without proper explanation. You can't have a completely realistic story about Jack and Jill suddenly turn into a surrealist nightmare about Joe Schmoe on p. 30 and never get back to Jack and Jill or explain why Joe Schmoe is relevant to the story, and have it laden with grammatical and syntactic errors. You can't have a story where half the words are adverbs (unless you do it really well, I guess). You'll end up with moldy bread and kill some of your customers.

As for an opinion v. comment v. feedback v. critique, I feel like they're all words for the same thing, just with different connotations. A comment sounds short and uncritical. Feedback sounds maybe a bit lengthy but not quite so serious. An opinion sounds a bit more stubborn and subjective. A critique sounds intense and probably at least like, 200 words long.

Uh... those are my thoughts on that.


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## M. LeRenard (Oct 24, 2009)

> I would never expect to see it published in The New Yorker


Heh heh... I would.


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## Volpino (Oct 24, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> Heh heh... I would.



Bad fox! Stop reading things that are worded like a bad Pink Floyd tune.


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## panzergulo (Oct 25, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> But when it comes to things like, for example, the story you read about the two warring cultures, I don't think any [reasonable] interpretation is 'right' or 'wrong', because they all make sense to some degree.  And honestly, it could be that the author of that story saw your point and felt ashamed, because that wasn't his original intent, so now he's trying to fix it to make his original intent clearer.



You have awfully positive attitude towards this. The story was submitted the first time months ago, and I haven't yet seen the edited version. I think the writer just got mad and is never going to upload the story again. I dunno... I find it easier to believe in the bad and ugly in people than in the good in people.



M. Le Renard said:


> Anyway, since you're dealing with people, you get every answer under the sun.  The simplest solution is to write mostly for yourself and hope that some others kind of like it.



What I have always been doing, _ystÃ¤vÃ¤iseni_.



Scarborough said:


> And unfortunately, people seem to take criticism personally, or take it too far. Ultimately, the author decides what gets kept in the story and what gets thrown out. Critiques are just suggestions, and sometimes terrible suggestions at that. I've never been completely chewed out for critiquing before, but I've seen people get very defensive about their stuff.



When I write real critique for people, I most often say "but it's only my opinion" in the end. I don't know if it makes people feel easier about it. But yeah, some people ask for critique, and when they don't get praise, they start bitching and moaning and yelling "troll" and "flamer" at the critic. It happens.



Scarborough said:


> I think there's a right and wrong way to write a story. [...]



My question was: Is there "right" and "wrong" way to *read* a story, but what the heck, what you pointed out has been and will be pointed out again and again in this forum. Because some people can't just understand that you need to know the basics before you can write a story. In my cynicism I have become to believe that some people are just unable to grasp some concepts like, say, storytelling, grammar and spelling.



Scarborough said:


> Uh... those are my thoughts on that.



Thank you for MLR and Scarborough for your thoughts, your posts made the most sense to me. I'm not so sure about those other people... and I think nobody actually pondered solely about the matter I pondered in the OP... ah, irony. Of course the OP in a thread called "Reader's freedom" is going to be misread, misinterpreted and used in various ways I never intended.

And yes, that was humor. Now you laugh. Ha ha, anyone? Bah, my quirky humor...


One more example came to my mind:

I wrote a story for the previous season's Anthrofiction Network's Short Story Contest. I think the story I wrote is maybe my awkwardest, slowest, most boring and most forced story I have ever written. It's static, there's no action, no character development, just people talking and crying and laughing and hugging and acting silly. In my own opinion, the story sucks. It's horrible. There's not even morale in the story. It just is.
And still, it won the second place. And after uploading it in FA, people have praised it from earth to heaven. One reader even said the story feels "very matured" and "its perhaps the best thing" they have ever read from me.
Now, I have politely thanked all the people commenting on the story and maybe said some other things as well... but still, I get confused because of the praise... because in my honest opinion, the story isn't good at all. It just fitted so well for the contest theme, nothing more. I'm also afraid... because my entry for the next season's contest feels very good... there's a bit of action, bit of humor, lots of mystery and magical things happening and it all is laid into something that is very dear and important to me... and I fear the story won't rank well at all... because people seem to like something I see as horrible and boring.

I have seen the effect in my other stories as well. Some stories I have considered my worst and weakest have received praise they never earned in my opinion, and some other stories which I truly like never get the attention I had wished them to receive. It's tough to be a hobbyist writer.

So, any more thoughts, anyone? About anything in the OP or about anything presented after the OP. I want to read your thoughts about reader's freedom, opinions and writer-reader relationship in general.


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## Murphy Z (Oct 25, 2009)

Everyone knows writing is a skill, and it has its subskills: punctuation, imagination, etc. Literary interpretation is also a skill. You have to interpret what the author is saying, find things like irony, humor, etc, and gauge if he is successful or not, etc. Can you imagine if a stories were crafted like stereo speaker installation instructions:

"I did not steal your entire collection of Abba CDs," said Bernard the Fox to Chloe the Panda.
"You didn't?" Chloe scrunched her face.
    Everyone, including Chloe, knows that Bernard stole them. You are supposed to feel a little angry but mostly pity at Bernard, but you will realize later on in the story that just feeling sorry for someone will eventually be detrimental to them. Bernard was a fox because they're crafty and have been known to steal things. The Abba CDs are a symbol of how materialistic and kitschy our society has become. Chloe is a panda because the author felt like having one at the time.


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## M. LeRenard (Oct 25, 2009)

panzergulo said:
			
		

> I think the writer just got mad and is never going to upload the story again.


It could be, since it's been so long.  Some people really just don't want to improve, after all.


> In my own opinion, the story sucks. It's horrible. There's not even morale in the story. It just is.


I did finally read that one, though I never left a comment because I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade....  but I guess since you're saying this, I could tell you now without feeling bad that I thought it was... pretty boring and kind of sappy.  Definitely not one of your better ones.  I mean, it was written very well, but the story was just kind of blah for me.  They cry and leave the house, looking toward the future and leaving the past behind them.  How original, right?
I suppose it got a mostly positive reaction because people really seem to enjoy sentimental works.  I had something similar happen to me with one of the Thursday Prompts I did (Library), where I wrote a kind of cheesy, romanticized story that I didn't really like all that much, but for some reason I still every now and then find that someone new has fave'd it.  Maybe it's just that the audience for furry writing happens to have a lot of sentimentalists, which I suppose makes some sense.
I don't think you need worry about them hating your next story, though.  My winning story for that contest some time ago was hard science fiction, starring an octopus who took care of a bunch of frozen humans on their way to another star system; something that is not the slightest bit romantic or sentimental.  It was highly experimental for me, and I probably concentrated more on getting the science right than on making it a good story, but they liked it anyway.  So tastes are not set in stone.
Anyway, my speculation is that you're a good enough writer that no matter what you do for the contest, it will rank high or win.  If you beat me this quarter, would that make you not worry about it anymore?


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## panzergulo (Oct 25, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> I did finally read that one, though I never left a comment because I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade....  but I guess since you're saying this, I could tell you now without feeling bad that I thought it was... pretty boring and kind of sappy.  Definitely not one of your better ones.  I mean, it was written very well, but the story was just kind of blah for me.  They cry and leave the house, looking toward the future and leaving the past behind them.  How original, right?



Hahaa, at last somebody is agreeing with me! Finally. It took only, what, three months? Yeah, I agree... boring, sappy, unoriginal... I guess you can sell anything to readers if you write it well enough, eh?



M. Le Renard said:


> I suppose it got a mostly positive reaction because people really seem to enjoy sentimental works.  I had something similar happen to me with one of the Thursday Prompts I did (Library), where I wrote a kind of cheesy, romanticized story that I didn't really like all that much, but for some reason I still every now and then find that someone new has fave'd it.  Maybe it's just that the audience for furry writing happens to have a lot of sentimentalists, which I suppose makes some sense.



Interesting. As I told before, I have noticed the same thing: People might praise a work the writer considers their worst, and never give attention to a work the writer considers their best.



M. Le Renard said:


> I don't think you need worry about them hating your next story, though.  My winning story for that contest some time ago was hard science fiction, starring an octopus who took care of a bunch of frozen humans on their way to another star system; something that is not the slightest bit romantic or sentimental.  It was highly experimental for me, and I probably concentrated more on getting the science right than on making it a good story, but they liked it anyway.  So tastes are not set in stone.



I think you don't have the story in your gallery, because I don't remember it. But yeah, many kinds of stories get attention... I guess people expected something sentimental and sappy with "bittersweet goodbye".



M. Le Renard said:


> Anyway, my speculation is that you're a good enough writer that no matter what you do for the contest, it will rank high or win.  If you beat me this quarter, would that make you not worry about it anymore?



I don't know if you have noticed, but I don't consider myself as a great writer. Not even a good writer. I'm just a mediocre, in my own opinion, not above average. Come on, I haven't been writing seriously more than twenty-two months now, and I write in a language I'm not native to. It doesn't matter who I beat, I would still worry. I'll survive, I just post my entry and hope for the best, like last time. And, if _you_ are participating, the best I am expecting is the second place. ;P


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## M. LeRenard (Oct 25, 2009)

I don't know.  I always seem to mortally offend at least one person with my stories, so you have a good chance of getting a higher score than me.  Of course (and this is sort of on-topic), I consider offense to be a good achievement for a writer.  If you're pissing someone off, you're probably doing something right.


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## Scarborough (Oct 25, 2009)

panzergulo said:


> My question was: Is there "right" and "wrong" way to *read* a story, but what the heck, what you pointed out has been and will be pointed out again and again in this forum. Because some people can't just understand that you need to know the basics before you can write a story. In my cynicism I have become to believe that some people are just unable to grasp some concepts like, say, storytelling, grammar and spelling.


Heh. Somehow I completely missed that.

Anyway, in my mind, saying there's a wrong way to read a story is like saying there's a wrong way to look at a flower. You look at the flower, you find something you like about it, you interact with it, you move on. Or you ignore the flower completely.

There are probably better and worse ways to read a story, just as there are probably better and worse ways to look at a flower. Looking at a flower under a microscope loses the whole flower under minutiae. Similarly, if reading a story just because you like anthropomorphic characters and you only paid attention to how there were anthropomorphic characters in a story, you might miss the whole theme of "but some are more equal than others."

So uh... I'd say that there are more and less perceptive/rewarding ways to read a story.

And re the whole "writer thinks that work X is his/her best work, but audience completely ignores work X and thinks that work Y, which the writer has spent pretty much no time into writing, is the writer's best work" thing, I think it's because our best work pushes boundaries or does something daring. And people aren't necessarily looking for daring things. It's I guess similar reasoning to why the most popular movies nowadays tend to all look the same. Most people want to get something definite and familiar when they're going to the movies. Or listening to music. Or reading a book.


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## M. LeRenard (Oct 25, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> It's I guess similar reasoning to why the most popular movies nowadays tend to all look the same. Most people want to get something definite and familiar when they're going to the movies. Or listening to music. Or reading a book.


That makes a lot more sense than what I said.  It could very well be that.  What were the other stories like that quarter?


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## NaotaM (Oct 25, 2009)

Most I've ever gotten is instances where readers ask questions or point out plot holes in one particular series of mine; invaluable feedback to be sure. I rarely do hsort stories and rarely complete anything, so opinions on how they interpreted things is very new to me. 

But I imagine it's actually very fascinating to hear how others see and relate to what happens in your story. Creative mediums will always be open to all kinds of interpretations, and it's pretty eye-opening for a creator to hear and see their work and ideas from a different viewpoint and perspective they themselves can't share; themes, subtleties and quirks you didn't notice before; messages they garner from the story that you may or may not have subconciously been aware of; thoughts and perspectives that a reader related with.

As for there being a wrong way to read, I can't say. I don't read too often. lol I mean, there's such a thing as missing obvious points and symbolism, but you can also read too much into something, putting meaning into where there is none. Then again, you could notice little touches and overlying themes in the plot the writer didn't notice through careful obversation, perhaps something of a revealing glimpse into the writer themselves. And sometimes, like in your very last example, you happen to disagree with a characte's actions or see them as being flawed when the writer didn't intend them, or at least, didn't see them that way. Maybe it's bad writing and storytelling, like if it seems contradictory to the plot or its message, but maybe it's just a matter of perspective again.


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## Volpino (Oct 25, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> Most people want to get something definite and familiar when they're going to the movies. Or listening to music. Or reading a book.



Not sure why I'm posting to just agree with you, but I like the line out of Terry Pratchett's book _The Truth_.



> People like to be told what they already know... They get uncomfortable when you tell them _new_ things... In short, what people _think_ they want is news, but what they really crave is _olds_.


Emphasis is the author's.


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## NaotaM (Oct 25, 2009)

Volpino said:


> Not sure why I'm posting to just agree with you, but I like the line out of Terry Pratchett's book _The Truth_.
> 
> 
> Emphasis is the author's.


 
Well yeah, just look at what passes for news networks these days, ie. hugbox echo chambers that entertain by telling people what they already think.


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## Scarborough (Oct 26, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> That makes a lot more sense than what I said.  It could very well be that.  *What were the other stories like that quarter?*


Your question confused me. What were you asking? >.>''



			
				NaotaM said:
			
		

> Well yeah, just look at what passes for news networks these days, ie. hugbox echo chambers that entertain by telling people what they already think.


What's more disturbing is when people watch a specific news station for long enough that they forget that other viewpoints exist. And are, for the most part, perfectly valid viewpoints.


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## Altamont (Oct 26, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> What's more disturbing is when people watch a specific news station for long enough that they forget that other viewpoints exist. And are, for the most part, perfectly valid viewpoints.




I couldn't have said it better myself. Sensationalist and close-minded media is poisoning people's ability to rationally communicate.


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## Thou Dog (Nov 8, 2009)

Panzergulo, I know what you mean about evoking reactions in people. One of my stories evoked that reaction in me, as I was writing it, and I've gotten the occasional bit of flak for it ever since posting.

But if someone should tell me they read the story and understood it in a way I didn't intend, I might discuss with them what I had intended - but no more. Who am I to say "No, you read it wrong", unless the person actually quotes to me something from my story that isn't in there? I reinterpret my stuff all the time, like a dog which returneth to its filth, to paraphrase a certain book.

I might get a bit mad if someone dropped a comment that said "lol it sux", but... you know, it hasn't really come up.


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## nybx4life (Nov 9, 2009)

panzergulo said:


> So, what do you think about all this? Do you have your own experiences about alternate views to your stories or stories of other people, and what kind of responses and reactions these views and opinions have created? Is there such thing as reader's freedom? Is a story totally subjective thing, how it is interpreted is relative only to the experiences, opinions and world view of the reader, or are there "wrong" and "right" way to read a story? Has the writer even the right to correct the reader, if the reader's views to the story are totally opposite from the writer's? Is writer's negative response to a comment only a sign of inexperience and Mary Sue syndrome? Is there such thing as opinion? What is an opinion, compared to a comment, feedback and/or critique?
> 
> Tell about your own experiences. Discuss about reader's freedom. What are your opinions about opinions?
> 
> (Olsou, sou sori abaut bÃ¤Ã¤d grÃ¤mmer Ã¤nd spelling, it iis kainda Ã¶Ã¶rly hier in Finland ;P)



Alright, because I'm clueless on how you interpret reader's freedom (if there is that small chance that people believe it to be different), I'll at least put down what I think of it.

Reader's freedom, to me, is how the reader interprets a writer's story (which I think you mean when you say "reader's freedom"). The thing you have to keep in mind is that literature is textual art. Writing stories of fiction is textual art (and no, not the type of text where it's all arranged into a specific shape or symbol. That's visual art). Since it's like that, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

Like visual art, if people like it, or they have a different view to how they see things. That is on them. The creator, or other viewers, has no right to criticize them, only on the situation where the creator went for a specific type of theme (say, for example, how the story in whole is entirely emo). If a viewer has a different view to it, it's a refreshing change, mainly because you get a different idea on how people see your stuff.

To cut off a reader's opinion does not make the writer inexperienced, or has a Mary Sue syndrome (well, maybe). It just means that they're attached to their idea of the theme or any other subject. Besides (and I hate going back to this), if someone mentioned that Bella from Twilight is an ugly bimbo that somehow got the love from a antisocial maniac, and Meyer disagreed with them, it doesn't mean that the writer is inexperienced (rarely have I heard of an author that got their first ever story published, and became a bestseller).

I think I covered all the bases, but if not, tell me.


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## Penelope Dairas (Nov 18, 2009)

I find this thread a bit silly, personally, since the answer's obvious to me. Of course there exists freedom of reading a story: whether to read it, how to read it, and therefore how to interpret it. Story's like a really weird mathematical excercise, everyone goes along a different way and finally gets results that match with no one else's.

The strange thing that there are no "good" and no "bad" results in that math task. That's why it's called freedom~ If you create a banana in your story as a symbol for people to interpret, feel free to be shocked by how creative people can get. It's a basis in some tabletop RPGs, where the GM can often be shocked by how their _players_ are able to create lands, worlds, people, beautifully do things the GM wouldn't even dream of. They often ruin scenarios, campaigns, hell, everything the GM has prepared so far, but the proper way then is to scrap the campaign and go with the flow of creativity.


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## VÃ¶lf (Nov 26, 2009)

My one friend made a journal post once saying something about "I will destroy all evil" or something of that sort. I recall him getting a lot of comments asking what he meant by "evil". Eventually someone got overly cynical with him, picking apart everything he said and commenting on it, as you can probably expect from what I've said, it was mostly negative. My friend fired back, defending his opinion. Eventually it got to the point where one felt it got personal, and I'm not sure what became of it (like a confrontation or w/e) but I stayed out of it, realizing I've felt this way plenty of times myself. But I also concluded that you have to be careful and not get too righteous... it only attracts people to you who will try to cut you down. It's not even necessarily that they don't like you; thus the whole thing with getting too righteous...

As far as my stuff goes, the few comments I've received have all been compliments, as a matter of fact. Short, sweet, and to the point. I do think that ppl ought to be less critical about people reading their works though; no two interpretations will ever be carbon copies of each other.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 29, 2009)

Hi, I'm new. First post here, lol.

I write W0W fanfic. I'm not a lorenik. I sometimes get it wrong. I'm okay with people correcting me on it, though sometimes I choose not to change it, because the storyline requires the incorrect lore line.

The thing I wish that all readers of my stories would remember is... it's just a story. I'm just trying to tell a story. I'm not trying to create a masterpiece of lore. I'm not trying to create a perfect symphony of exacting grammar and punctuation.

That's right. I'm just telling a story. Nothing more, nothing less.

So if my grammar and punctuation aren't perfect (and whose is?), and this bothers you to the point where you can't read it... then please don't. I'm not writing this for sale, it's free. If I were writing it for a novel to be published, I promise I'd hire a professional editor.

As it stands, though, if you're not paying for the work, take it for what it's worth. It's just a story. And if it's a story that you read and really enjoyed, say so. If it's a story that you read and didn't really like, go find one you will.

A bit of criticism here and there is okay. But let's face it, I'm a sensitive person. Most artists are, be they writers, artists, or musicians. Is it really necessary to give out your every negative opinion? 

I experienced what amounted to a stalking by one individual, and I confess it has lowered my receptivity to critiques. He followed me around from story to story, creating confrontations amongst himself and other readers and/or between him and myself.

While he would give "positive" critiques along with his boundless complaints (sometimes), it got to the point where I put him on ignore. At what point does it cease to be acceptable for someone to air their opinion? When do you accept an author's specific request to keep it to yourself?

On the one hand, I can take a bit of criticism, but on the other hand, a lot of authors (especially the newly budding ones) cannot. This seems self-evident to me. Before I offer any sort of criticism, I make sure the author has asked for it first.

Now, if I'm paying for a book, and I have some major problem with it (huge plot hole, absolute rubbish grammar, whatever), then I might fire off an email or a snail-mail to the writer. Usually, I'll just ask for my money back.

If someone writes something, then you know that at least one person liked it-- the writer.

I try to take people's comments with as much good grace as I can muster. That is, of course, assuming they don't stalk and harass me or derail threads I'm trying to story in. But at the same time, I really hope that anyone offering me a critique will be kind, considerate, and hopefully gentle about it.

The bottom line for me is that when I write about characters, they're alive in my mind. They're my friends, for lack of a better way to express the 'relationship' to non-writers (and even some writers). I experience them mentally as almost real or alive. Thus they have personalities to me, and I will confide (between you, me, and the hole in the wall), that I don't like to see my friends maligned.

I write the stories for the sake of the stories, not for the sake of the reader. I share because I care about the story itself. I share because it makes it feel like the characters have a greater life when others can read about and share the imaging of their existence.

It's still only a story. While I take it seriously beyond that, I find it a bit insulting when others take it seriously beyond that. It may seem a bit hypocritical, but I think that my point and my feeling is that the telling of the story isn't the same as the experiencing of the story. 

If the writer has done his or her job correctly, the reading of the story is easy. It will hopefully flow, and at the end of it, leave a lingering feeling of both completion and yearning.

To write the story, however, is hours of work. It's rewrites and edits and aching fingers. If it's not a far greater effort to write than it is to read, then the writer is doing something drastically wrong.

So in reading, given the amount of effort and work that goes into writing something, I don't think it's too much to ask that people give critique only where asked, and even then to do so with tremendous kindness. To critique, it's imperative to keep to the forefront of one's mind, the [almost certain] sensitivity of the receiver.

When you critique an artist of any kind, you are critiquing not only their work, but their person and their relationship to the characters/subject.

Sorry to wax on and on here, but there's a lot of area to cover.

I see a lot of people here comparing writing to something like making cakes or other formulaic types of endeavors. I have a real discomfort with this. 

I both bake, and write. There is a huge gulf between the two. For the one, I have specific instructions. So long as I follow these simple instructions, measure accurately, and don't deviate... the cake comes out. Everyone eats, enjoys, and goes on about their day.

For a story, though, there is art both in the creation, and the consumption.

Where baking and creating stories come together is when you are trying to create a new or original work. Trying to make a new type of cake, not an established one. This is more like trying to create a story...

Even still, the ingredients for a cake are usually limited to not more than 12-- and even that is a LOT! The ingredients for a successful story, however, are manifold and not nearly so concrete. Even knowing all grammar and punctuation and spelling of everything can be daunting. Much less having an extensive-- but not too extensive-- vocabulary. Then an in-depth enough understanding of every aspect of your subject matter in order to pacify everyone from the lorenik to the layperson. Heap on top of this the many aspects of creating your plot and your characters and the environment. That just scratches the surface.

And with any luck, each story is different. Each has its own unique flavor and texture. Yet underlying all of this is the author's signature style. So when you critique a cake that someone made from a recipe that didn't work out, you're critiquing the originating creator... when you critique a story that you think didn't rise well, you are critiquing the writer personally. Along with their style, their beloved characters, and everything else the writer did (or didn't).

There's no way on Earth that I can think of to NOT take a critique of my story personally. I wrote it. I thought it up. I was the go-between for the characters in my mind and the outside world. My character, my personality, my style, is intrinsically linked to it- forever. And so are my characters, their style, their personalities.

The personal nature of writing is, I think, what so often makes readers feel like they own the story, and can tell the writer how it should have been. It makes them forget that the writer is just a storyteller, and makes them feel like someone took THEIR friends and tried to portray them on paper.

That's a good thing. The writer has made the characters live in the mind of the reader. Fait accompli. The foundational drive of a writer is to make the characters live and  breathe and have their being inside the mind of the reader.

And when a reader comes with a complaint about the way a character is portrayed, then the writer can know beyond all doubt that the reader now feels a sense of proprietary attachment to the character.

Yet this in no way acquits the reader of the necessity for kindness when dealing with the person who has given them the extraordinary gift of a new friend (even just an imaginary one).

Better yet is when the reader gains that same sense of proprietary longing towards a villain. They may even want to kill them-- the writer's skill is so great that they have created a living and breathing villain so clearly portrayed that he or she arouses in the reader feelings of vengeance and open malice. Few readers appreciate this incredible power. They come back for more and more and more, yet fail utterly to realize that they are truly enjoying owning the villain so completely.

They lash out at the writer who created this being that they so love to hate... yet they continue to love to hate said villain.

I would wish that more readers understand that even when they lash out regarding a villain, they are lashing out at a creation of the writer. Gentleness, again, is called for.

If you truly didn't experience what is required regarding a story's villain, you would cease to read it. But rather, to read and complain because you hate the bad guy... is illogic taken to an extreme.

What is a reader's freedom? A reader's freedom is to become involved enough in a story to care about the fate of all within its pages. And if you care enough to speak out... to do so with care, if you cannot simply take the story as a story and leave it at that.

Remember, if you haven't paid for a thing, to be kind when consuming it. If someone offers you free pizza, do you sit and bitch and moan because it's cheese pizza instead of your favorite kind? Or do you gracefully accept and enjoy the pizza, thanking the purchaser, and carry on with your life?

If you pay for something, you have somewhat more freedom to complain, but even that is limited. If you buy a pepperoni pizza and it comes with sausage, then you can complain. If you buy a pepperoni pizza and it was 3 pepperonis short of what you think should be on a pizza... well, too freaking bad. Get some from the fridge and throw it on there, whiner.

Any person, writer or otherwise, deserves the greatest of courtesy when being criticized. It's not too much to ask, and not so hard to give.

When someone has the courage to give criticism honestly sought and gently rendered... they, too, deserve the greatest of courtesy. Even if you don't agree with them.

Above all else, if we would each remember that both writer and reader are precious human beings with feelings and hopes and dreams... and treat them accordingly, I think the world of writing/reading would be a better one.

As true for the world in general, no?


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## Poetigress (Nov 29, 2009)

I can agree with some aspects of what you're saying here as far as critique goes, but as for the part about the story being free, so take it for what it's worth -- remember that your readers are paying. They may not be putting out cash, but they're spending their time, and they can't get a refund on that. In other words, just because the reader is getting the story for free doesn't mean the writer gets an excuse for giving them something second-rate.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 29, 2009)

I don't think there is any excuse whatsoever to deliberately crap up a story.

However, when a person chooses their entertainment, they do so at their own risk. Just as I cannot sue a movie maker for "wasting my precious entertainment time" because I didn't like their movie, the same goes for reading something. At best, you get whatever money back that you paid. If you didn't pay with money, then you're on your own. 

There are reasons why, "I didn't like it, so it wasted my time" won't hold up in a court of law. Because liking or not liking something is entirely objective. Proving that a person flubbed their "their" versus their "they're" deliberately in order to waste your entertainment time is impossible. Thus one must accept that reading something during your entertainment time is at risk.

If someone is deliberately trying to make their stuff terrible, then there are larger problems at work there. That person is an ass.

But what one person considers second rate, another may consider first rate. I personally enjoy B-rate flicks.  Others may get upset if they go to a b-rate flick.

I think that FUTA is a total waste of time. It's annoying because I don't get it. But that doesn't mean that all FUTA writing is second rate. So I guess it begs the question of who decides what's second rate? 

Does anyone without exacting grammar and punctuation rate a 'second rate'? And under what circumstances does one get a pass for certain things? And how much, if any, poor/improper English gets a pass?

It's a gray area, so I think that when one decides to critique, keeping the other person's humanity in mind is always the best choice. Even if they seem to have the worst English ever. Maybe there's a reason that you don't know about. And maybe someone like me might come along and read the story and think it's absolutely FAB, regardless of the poor grasp of the English language.

I tend to be pretty forgiving about that (unless specifically asked), because I read for the story more than anything. I've met too many people from other countries who have written fantastic stories with poor English to stand on convention. They're doing their best, and I don't think they should have to sit in a corner and shut up until their English is perfect.

I'd miss out on the fabulous story if they did, and I dun like that idee-er!


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