# what's your sexuality/ gender



## Sivath (Aug 16, 2017)

Someone asked about correlation between lgbt and furry, saying a lot of furries are also lgbt.
Is that true? I wanted to check statistics.
And if it's true, what do think is the reason?


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## Scales42 (Aug 16, 2017)

straight male here


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## GunsForPaws (Aug 16, 2017)

I think it's because the furry fandom is typically very open and kind to others which attracts LGBT people. It's like, a safe place for them I guess.


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

gays are actually over represented in the furry fandom but i fucking HATE the LBGT community because they keep trying to make everyone and thing "queer" 

myself for example according to some i should be part of the LBGT community because i would be what they call Demisexual however i don't fucking view myself as that i find myself as a straight person who just finds sex very personal and can only do it with some one i know well which usually means i don't have a strong sexual attraction to some one until i know them well


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## fallout19980 (Aug 16, 2017)

1 on The Kinsey scale here.


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## GunsForPaws (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> gays are actually over represented in the furry fandom but i fucking HATE the LBGT community because they keep trying to make everyone and thing "queer"
> 
> myself for example according to some i should be part of the LBGT community because i would be what they call Demisexual however i don't fucking view myself as that i find myself as a straight person who just finds sex very personal and can only do it with some one i know well which usually means i don't have a strong sexual attraction to some one until i know them well


I somewhat agree. I feel that the label shouldn't just be slapped on anyone whose sexuality is different to heterosexual, even if it is just another variant of heterosexuality. And I feel like some members of the LGBT community like to shove their sexuality/gender in other people's faces. Like, I don't care if you're gay or whatever xD Sexuality and gender honestly don't make me think any different of the person but if they're constantly telling me it, like the stereotype that vegans constantly talk about being vegan, I'm gonna get a bit pissed. But I don't hate the LGBT community. They're the same as anyone else in my eyes. Just don't shove it in my face xD


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 16, 2017)

I'm gender neutral (but physically male) and bisexual. But, I prefer men over women and have a boyfriend, actually.


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 16, 2017)

For anyone else replying: I'm the guy that asked about the correlation, on another forum, though. I might need to provide some context: I have two male friends, both of whom are furries, and both bisexual. It just got me wondering if there was any rhyme or reason to it. I mainly posted that thread because I was a bit bored, and just wanted to see what others had to say on the matter. I hope no one is offended by my curiosity, it's just a bit interesting to see a trend like that.


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

GunsForPaws said:


> They're the same as anyone else in my eyes. Just don't shove it in my face



i found that too i started heavily disliking LBGT communities when they started kinda protesting for the sake of it and doing the whole "where here where queer get used to it" thing cause its just unnecessary particularly in this day and age when literally no one cares anymore 

like you can be gay but do you REALLY need to basically have rainbow gay orgies in the middle of the City for no real apparent reason at all?


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

EvanB1912 said:


> For anyone else replying: I'm the guy that asked about the correlation, on another forum, though. I might need to provide some context: I have two male friends, both of whom are furries, and both bisexual. It just got me wondering if there was any rhyme or reason to it. I mainly posted that thread because I was a bit bored, and just wanted to see what others had to say on the matter. I hope no one is offended by my curiosity, it's just a bit interesting to see a trend like that.



to answer your question yes gays are over represented in the furry community they're often used as case studies for social/psychology students i think this video covers a lot of it in detail


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## GunsForPaws (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> i found that too i started heavily disliking LBGT communities when they started kinda protesting for the sake of it and doing the whole "where here where queer get used to it" thing cause its just unnecessary particularly in this day and age when literally no one cares anymore
> 
> like you can be gay but do you REALLY need to basically have rainbow gay orgies in the middle of the City for no real apparent reason at all?


Well, being part of the LGBT community is still a problem in several countries, and even in countries where it's legal it's still possible to be kicked out by your family for it, or not be treated the way a straight cis-gendered person would be. I understand some of the protesting. But I can't stand protests that hold up traffic or whatever. And I do find that they tend to be way more open about their sex lives than straight cis-gendered people, which sometimes isn't entirely their fault, but it can be good and bad. I'm the kind of person who feels uncomfortable when people just spew out who they fucked last night like it's nothing so that's a pretty bad thing for me.


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> to answer your question yes gays are over represented in the furry community they're often used as case studies for social/psychology students i think this video covers a lot of it in detail


Thanks, mate.


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

EvanB1912 said:


> Thanks, mate.



just in case its not covered in that video (i did read a few reports during a brief stint at med school) basically the reports aren't flattering it links homosexuality to being a furry in the same way that most serial killers are also gay 

the reports usually have two outcomes 

"Degeneracy"
 OR there's just a primal instinct that draws gays to these buff strong animalistic Anthros but that's more assuming the furry community is only for the yiff and fetishism


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> just in case its not covered in that video (i did read a few reports during a brief stint at med school) basically the reports aren't flattering it links homosexuality to being a furry in the same way that most serial killers are also gay
> 
> the reports usually have two outcomes
> 
> ...


I understand. My first hypothesis was that maybe young LGBT teenagers could perhaps relate to the furry fandom, as a way of safely expressing themselves, as an anonymous character. Or maybe I'm just talking completely out of my arse on this one, I don't know.


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

EvanB1912 said:


> I understand. My first hypothesis was that maybe young LGBT teenagers could perhaps relate to the furry fandom, as a way of safely expressing themselves, as an anonymous character. Or maybe I'm just talking completely out of my arse on this one, I don't know.



no, no, i was never going to be a psychologist if you have sniffles i can help out but you're probably more correct because a lot of the studies are quite old now there's not been any new ones

but your hypothesis depends on have they come out openly are they in say Australia where being gay is quite normal and welcomed or is it America where its still quite taboo

but yes i think for a young homosexual maybe bisexual exploring if they're one way or the other exploring their sexuality through art and the furry community would be a good outlet for them provided that they're careful since young gays tend to look up to older gays and can lead to danger or grooming

i'm not saying all gays are paedophiles btw


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> no, no, i was never going to be a psychologist if you have sniffles i can help out but you're probably more correct because a lot of the studies are quite old now there's not been any new ones
> 
> but your hypothesis depends on have they come out openly are they in say Australia where being gay is quite normal and welcomed or is it America where its still quite taboo
> 
> ...


Well, yeah, any and every community has its share of weirdos.

Also, I'm not saying that my hypothesis is true for me, either, just that maybe a 'fursona' is a healthy way of exploring such new feelings, for people questioning their sexuality. (I'm bi, btw).

(Jeez, this thread just gets even more interesting by the hour lol.)


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## Sivath (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> i found that too i started heavily disliking LBGT communities when they started kinda protesting for the sake of it and doing the whole "where here where queer get used to it" thing cause its just unnecessary particularly in this day and age when literally no one cares anymore
> 
> like you can be gay but do you REALLY need to basically have rainbow gay orgies in the middle of the City for no real apparent reason at all?



I agree that something that's over PG13, of any pair, should not be shown on the streets.
But, a lot of het cis people look at pride parades and protests and tell them to stop 'shoving it in their faces'. Some even accuse a normal gay couple casually holding hands of 'shoving it in their face'.
That's because you haven't experienced what it's like to be queer. Just because you yourself is 'okay with other people being queer', doesn't mean the majority of society think that way.
Queer people have lived in fear of assault, estrangement of their friends, and losing a home their whole life.
I live in Korea where this is a lot worse than in America. The little queer festival we do once every year is a welcome one day respite of daily oppression, and an act of defiance against people throwing eggs and dirty looks from outside the fence. And we have to fight against christian protests for even that one day.

When the day comes where saying "I'm queer" has the same consequences as saying "I like strawberries", do you think queer people would make such a 'fuss' out of it?


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## Sivath (Aug 16, 2017)

@EvanB1912 Hi Evan


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## Deleted member 82554 (Aug 16, 2017)




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## EvanB1912 (Aug 16, 2017)

Sivath said:


> @EvanB1912 Hi Evan


Heya.


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## Jarren (Aug 16, 2017)

Heterosexual dude here.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Aug 16, 2017)

Asexual dude mustard rice reporting in


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

Sivath said:


> cis


ok... cis doesn't mean what you think it means i hate that word with a passion its actually a very complex psychological scientific term that essentially means "a gay person choosing to be straight for the sake of society" until tumblr bastardised it and turned it into a tumblrism if you trace "cis" back to SJWs first using it that's more or less what they implied that everyone is born gay or queer but chooses their sexual orientation there was a weird movement for a while that you could turn straight people gay


any way moving on 


Sivath said:


> When the day comes where saying "I'm queer" has the same consequences as saying "I like strawberries", do you think queer people would make such a 'fuss' out of it?


to be honest i don't know what that's like Australia's been the most progressive nation about gays for the longest time i think Sydney has the most gays of any city though it may have lost the title to SF in the past decade so here it very much is accepted but my point still stands the protests are unnecessary 

As you said anything "PG13" should not be on the streets


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## Lamipelt (Aug 16, 2017)

Whoever I have a fun emotional attachment to regardless of gender.


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## JamesOtters (Aug 16, 2017)

Sivath said:


> Someone asked about correlation between lgbt and furry, saying a lot of furries are also lgbt.
> Is that true? I wanted to check statistics.
> And if it's true, what do think is the reason?



Hey. I'm proud Pansexual


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## Sivath (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> ok... cis doesn't mean what you think it means i hate that word with a passion its actually a very complex psychological scientific term that essentially means "a gay person choosing to be straight for the sake of society" until tumblr bastardised it and turned it into a tumblrism if you trace "cis" back to SJWs first using it that's more or less what they implied that everyone is born gay or queer but chooses their sexual orientation there was a weird movement for a while that you could turn straight people gay


Interesting. I'll use 'non trans', then. Or.. actually, we sometimes call you guys 'normies' or 'normals' for the sake of brevity, but that might also be offensive.



GreenZone said:


> to be honest i don't know what that's like Australia's been the most progressive nation about gays for the longest time i think Sydney has the most gays of any city though it may have lost the title to SF in the past decade so here it very much is accepted but my point still stands the protests are unnecessary


I don't know anything about Australia, but I believe I'm entitled to be (peacefully) aggressive about my rights and freedom.
I may be a little touchy because I've had a classmate say that once. A group of kids were going to do a lgbt positivity presentation for their group project. He said, "They have enough rights, why don't they just shut up about it?". I asked him if he would tell the whole school he's gay. Just for three weeks. He wouldn't.


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## Yakamaru (Aug 16, 2017)

Proud straight male here.


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## Sunburst_Odell (Aug 16, 2017)

I'm a heterosexual female.


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## JamesOtters (Aug 16, 2017)

fallout19980 said:


> 1 on The Kinsey scale here.



I took it for the Lolz and got a 3. Probably not accurate if it came off of buzzed though. Haha


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## quoting_mungo (Aug 16, 2017)

I honestly suspect a major factor in the relatively high number of QUILTBAG individuals in fandom is word-of-mouth. People who're already part of fandom get their close friends and partners involved, and queer people are more likely than cis-straight people to have queer friends and partners. That and everyone is gay for Abel.



GunsForPaws said:


> And I do find that they tend to be way more open about their sex lives than straight cis-gendered people, which sometimes isn't entirely their fault, but it can be good and bad. I'm the kind of person who feels uncomfortable when people just spew out who they fucked last night like it's nothing so that's a pretty bad thing for me.


You've obviously not been around the same straight high schoolers I have.  I worked at a school library last spring and I learned way more about those kids' sex lives than I ever wanted to. And they weren't even nice about it (as in, they were semi-loudly complaining about someone's performance. In the fucking library).


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## Naresie (Aug 16, 2017)

I refer to myself as my biological gender, however I could not care less what freaking genitals and reproductive systems I have. I just use my biological gender because it's the least amount of hassle. When looking at myself I just more or less feel like a genderless blob that just does day to day stuff.

Talking about my sexuality is more or less the same, I call myself bisexual for the sake of simplicity, but I could not care less about other people's genders either as long as their bodies/personalities/whatever would be attractive. Besides, I have a partner at the moment so sexuality isn't very relevant right now.


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## pineapplepizza (Aug 16, 2017)

Straight male. Unless it comes to yiff- then I actually prefer gay. So far it hasn't affected my sexual orientation in real life though


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## It'sBlitz (Aug 16, 2017)

Male, but I don't even know my sexuality...


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## Cloudyhue (Aug 16, 2017)

EvanB1912 said:


> I understand. My first hypothesis was that maybe young LGBT teenagers could perhaps relate to the furry fandom, as a way of safely expressing themselves, as an anonymous character. Or maybe I'm just talking completely out of my arse on this one, I don't know.


Hey, that's what I'm doing. My fursona is a lesbian just like I am. I project myself into her and express myself that way. When you're an attractive lesbian shark  thing on the internet there's little prejudice compared to real life sometimes.


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## StolenMadWolf (Aug 16, 2017)

Straight Guy.


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## Scales42 (Aug 16, 2017)

10 - 10  

This is interesting


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 16, 2017)

Male, bi, really I don't think about that too much. I just like people.


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 16, 2017)

Alright before this thread goes batshit, I'll throw in my understanding of the topic

1) Most furries are LGBT

Same goes for anime fans, fantasy, sci fi nerds, etc. It's not that impressive or strange. Fanbases tend to attract a lot of people of different types and backgrounds so it's no surprise that a lot of them are different and openly accept people in the community, the only similarity they all have is they like the topic of their fixation

2) Theyre are multiple genders.


Okay, let me start by saying there are exactly two sexes, with some gray margin in between: Male and Female. The majority of people are male or female, with a few intersex individuals.

Gender is the experience of someone based on overall sex traits, it's not some made up happy-go-lucky feeling to pander to your imagination. Sex traits are five things that match to get someone male or female: Chromosomes, Genitals/Primary sex characteristics, secondary sex characteristics, Hormones, and neurological traits.


As for how many genders there are? It boils down to three, or four.

Three being the two binary "male" and "Female" sex, with the tertiary gender as a gray area between the two as a catch-all term for "other" or "variant" individuals. The "other" category can be split into two others "genderfluid"- people who contain traits of both and either, and are often androgynous. And "Agender" People who do not associate with their sex/gender, and also can be often androgynous.

All those fancy terms like "neutrois", "androgyne", "bigender" and such all fall into those categories, and are nothing more than extra labels...some particularly for people who don't quite understand what gender is.



The LGBT community has a particularly awful knack for having kids and teens bandwagon onto the community just to feel special and inclusive. That's not what it's about, it's about people's rights not to be harassed for who they love or how they live.




Regarding the term "cis-", it's literal meaning is as a prefix, such as used in chemistry, "trans-" is also used in chemistry and many other terms. In literal terms trans means "opposite side" whereas cis mean "same side". If transgender was a word invented because it means "opposite gender of ones own sex", then cis implies the other. Of course, cis ended up being bastardized as a way for angry teenagers to cry "die cis scum" over their SJW movements, but it's meaning outside of that is still very basic as a definition.


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## Loffi (Aug 16, 2017)

Female and pan. sometimes pots too.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Aug 16, 2017)

JamesOtters said:


> Hey. I'm proud Pansexual


We talking like cast iron? Heavy bottom? Sauce?


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## Jarren (Aug 16, 2017)

Stadt said:


> Female and pan. sometimes pots too.


So, I'm assuming you've taken the pansexual right of passage?


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## Loffi (Aug 16, 2017)

Jarren said:


> So, I'm assuming you've taken the pansexual right of passage?



my pan and i have decided to wait until we're married


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## Miaq_Al_Sharim (Aug 16, 2017)

Male, hetero in the real physical world, bi in the anthropomorphic pornographic art world. 
Real dudes just aren't attractive, and they smell all wrong bruh.


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## Scales42 (Aug 16, 2017)

Stadt said:


> Female and pan. sometimes pots too.



It took me 10 minutes to figure out what's the joke  damn iam stupid


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## SoniatheSquishy (Aug 16, 2017)

Trans-feminine [definitely more feminine than masculine, still trying to figure out exactly where I lay on that end though], and heteroflexible.


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## ellaerna (Aug 16, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> to be honest i don't know what that's like Australia's been the most progressive nation about gays for the longest time


Despite the fact that Australia's technically at war with the gays. Or rather the gays are at war with Australia. Have been since 2004.
Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands - Wikipedia
The rainbow pride flag can't even be flown in/on government buildings since it is the flag of a hostile nation. 
Seriously. I'm not making this shit up. 


But on topic, I'm female and I'm bi, for whatever that is worth.


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## Casey Fluffbat (Aug 16, 2017)

Dunno if either, haven't checked.


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## GreenZone (Aug 16, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Despite the fact that Australia's technically at war with the gays.


you're talking out our ass

look Dale Anderson is a known nutjob who makes micronations left right and centre the rainbow flag not being flown has nothing to do with it being a "hostile nation" its because its like others have said seen as waving it in people's face

there was a MASSIVE backlash because a couple years ago they wanted to us (soldiers) to wear these on our slouch hats to show gays are accepted or what ever






it failed miserably its offensive to politicise the rising sun badge any way but also for a bunch reasons you wont understand if you're not Australian even notable gays were offended  any way it never went ahead

also ive actually just voted for gay marriage a day ago the election is going on now  i think the poles were about 70 for 40 against the against are mostly religious people the only person i know who is against gay marriage is a devout Catholic he doesn't have a problem with gays or them being in relationships he just finds gay Marriage offensive because to him its a sacred religious institution and by allowing gay marriage you're undermining the rights of the churches who don't want to participate and are forcing them

which i'll be honest he's right gays have been allowed to be civilly married for a while but no they want the full marriage in a church thing


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## ellaerna (Aug 17, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> you're talking out our ass
> 
> look Dale Anderson is a known nutjob who makes micronations left right and centre the rainbow flag not being flown has nothing to do with it being a "hostile nation" its because its like others have said seen as waving it in people's face
> 
> ...


Daaaaaaamn. 

Look, I would argue that I was not "speaking out of my ass" but rather making a humorous observation based on the fact that there is an actual group of gays and lesbians who have declared war on Australia, despite how silly an endeavor that might be. 

I was not trying to say you or Australia were anti gay, if you took it that way. You seem a tad defensive in your response. There's no need, really. 

I just think it's hilarious that this "kingdom" exists and I love spreading this fun fact to anyone and everyone.


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 17, 2017)

Wow! This thread's exploded! Thanks, guys.


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## GreenZone (Aug 17, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Daaaaaaamn.
> 
> Look, I would argue that I was not "speaking out of my ass" but rather making a humorous observation based on the fact that there is an actual group of gays and lesbians who have declared war on Australia, despite how silly an endeavor that might be.
> 
> ...



i misread your post i thought you were taking dale seriously he basically buys up plots of land that are a couple hundred acres and then declares it a micro nation he's the "king" of like 53 micronations


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 17, 2017)

Cloudyhue said:


> Hey, that's what I'm doing. My fursona is a lesbian just like I am. I project myself into her and express myself that way. When you're an attractive lesbian shark  thing on the internet there's little prejudice compared to real life sometimes.


Good for you!


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## Scorpen (Aug 17, 2017)

Male,  Like to believe I'm bi but haven't found a female attractive (sexually) yet so I identify as gay.  I'd say a 5.5 on the Kinsey scale. (Do half numbers even count???)


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 17, 2017)

Scorpen said:


> Male,  Like to believe I'm bi but haven't found a female attractive (sexually) yet so I identify as gay.  I'd say a 5.5 on the Kinsey scale. (Do half numbers even count???)


Being as the scale is a literal spectrum, I think that only giving it 10 possible scores seems counter-intuitive. So, yes, decimals should be fine.


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## jjCritz (Aug 17, 2017)

I'm genderfluid, but because of reasons just identify as mtf trans (pre op), and there is no word to describe my sexuality or preference. At least one I've found.


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## GunsForPaws (Aug 17, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> I honestly suspect a major factor in the relatively high number of QUILTBAG individuals in fandom is word-of-mouth. People who're already part of fandom get their close friends and partners involved, and queer people are more likely than cis-straight people to have queer friends and partners. That and everyone is gay for Abel.
> 
> 
> You've obviously not been around the same straight high schoolers I have.  I worked at a school library last spring and I learned way more about those kids' sex lives than I ever wanted to. And they weren't even nice about it (as in, they were semi-loudly complaining about someone's performance. In the fucking library).


Wow, that sucks. Eh, I guess I really shouldn't go by just my own experience since I've only met so many gay people.


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## JamesOtters (Aug 18, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> We talking like cast iron? Heavy bottom? Sauce?



???! Pansexual means Omnisexual, which means you can be attracted to any gender. So kind of like Bisexual, but with all the genders instead of 2.


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

JamesOtters said:


> ???! Pansexual means Omnisexual, which means you can be attracted to any gender. So kind of like Bisexual, but with all the genders instead of 2.


In fact, bisexual means you can be atracted to (1) people of your same gender and (2) people of a different gender than yours, so that includes everyone, but there's just a little tiny difference between bi and pan: When you identify as bi, you CAN have preferences (like, you like everything but prefer girls) or even exceptions (you don't have to have them and still can be considered bisexual), but when you're pansexual it's assumed you don't have any preference/exception.

And, for the record, lesbian cis woman here! Questioning being also poly tbh


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## Egon1982 (Aug 18, 2017)

Heterosexual and male


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Aug 18, 2017)

JamesOtters said:


> ???! Pansexual means Omnisexual, which means you can be attracted to any gender. So kind of like Bisexual, but with all the genders instead of 2.


Whoosh


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## lelapinmort (Aug 18, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> gays are actually over represented in the furry fandom but i fucking HATE the LBGT community because they keep trying to make everyone and thing "queer"
> 
> myself for example according to some i should be part of the LBGT community because i would be what they call Demisexual however i don't fucking view myself as that i find myself as a straight person who just finds sex very personal and can only do it with some one i know well which usually means i don't have a strong sexual attraction to some one until i know them well



If you understood what it was like to be oppressed for something you were literally born as, you'd understand why LGBT people have to be bold. We have to be brave, because we continue to be oppressed. And after decades of fighting for our rights, we get to celebrate what victories we do have. After so long of people telling us we're not human, yeah, we get to celebrate what lives we do get to live. You can ignore that. Really. Saying no one cares anymore is your opinion. I'm sorry if you've ever experienced a few of our extremes. They get on my nerve too. But it's not fair of you to shit on us like you are. We don't try to make everything queer. We just want fair, realistic representation. Oh, and actual equal rights. We can still get fired for being LGBT, discriminated against in public, and even have acts of violence committed against us, with often little or no justice at our side. As a trans person, I'm in danger of being beaten up, raped or even murdered simply for needing to take a shit in a public bathroom. Honestly, you sound like you're only paying attention to some dumb kids on tumblr.

As for being Demisexual, yeah, you're not LGBT unless you're also a lesbian, or gay, or bi, or trans. I honestly hate that people (mostly on tumblr) try to group things like Demi and Ace in with LGBT. I agree that people still get bullied for it, and ace people still get abused by people who don't understand that they don't want to have sex, but it doesn't make them LGBT. Sure, they deserve a safe space to commune, and any LGBT community should be welcoming if they feel they belong there, but it just doesn't read LGBT to me. Sorry, folks. It's my personal opinion though, honestly in the grand scheme, we all want to feel safe and respected, so I get it.

Also Gender: Male/ Sexuality: Bi. (I used to say Pan, but honestly it's just as valid to say Bi. I'm still open to any gender. I'm also Omni. Which, btw, is not pan. Omni means you're attracted to other species. (Aliens, ty, I don't want to fuck animals for realsies.)


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 18, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> If you understood what it was like to be oppressed for something you were literally born as, you'd understand why LGBT people have to be bold. We have to be brave, because we continue to be oppressed. And after decades of fighting for our rights, we get to celebrate what victories we do have. After so long of people telling us we're not human, yeah, we get to celebrate what lives we do get to live. You can ignore that. Really. Saying no one cares anymore is your opinion. I'm sorry if you've ever experienced a few of our extremes. They get on my nerve too. But it's not fair of you to shit on us like you are. We don't try to make everything queer. We just want fair, realistic representation. Oh, and actual equal rights. We can still get fired for being LGBT, discriminated against in public, and even have acts of violence committed against us, with often little or no justice at our side. As a trans person, I'm in danger of being beaten up, raped or even murdered simply for needing to take a shit in a public bathroom. Honestly, you sound like you're only paying attention to some dumb kids on tumblr.
> 
> As for being Demisexual, yeah, you're not LGBT unless you're also a lesbian, or gay, or bi, or trans. I honestly hate that people (mostly on tumblr) try to group things like Demi and Ace in with LGBT. I agree that people still get bullied for it, and ace people still get abused by people who don't understand that they don't want to have sex, but it doesn't make them LGBT. Sure, they deserve a safe space to commune, and any LGBT community should be welcoming if they feel they belong there, but it just doesn't read LGBT to me. Sorry, folks. It's my personal opinion though, honestly in the grand scheme, we all want to feel safe and respected, so I get it.
> 
> Also Gender: Male/ Sexuality: Bi. (I used to say Pan, but honestly it's just as valid to say Bi. I'm still open to any gender. I'm also Omni. Which, btw, is not pan. Omni means you're attracted to other species. (Aliens, ty, I don't want to fuck animals for realsies.)


Brilliant, truly great reply.


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## lelapinmort (Aug 18, 2017)

EvanB1912 said:


> Brilliant, truly great reply.



That's kind of you.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Aug 18, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> If you understood what it was like to be oppressed for something you were literally born as, you'd understand why LGBT people have to be bold. We have to be brave, because we continue to be oppressed. And after decades of fighting for our rights, we get to celebrate what victories we do have. After so long of people telling us we're not human, yeah, we get to celebrate what lives we do get to live. You can ignore that. Really. Saying no one cares anymore is your opinion. I'm sorry if you've ever experienced a few of our extremes. They get on my nerve too. But it's not fair of you to shit on us like you are. We don't try to make everything queer. We just want fair, realistic representation. Oh, and actual equal rights. We can still get fired for being LGBT, discriminated against in public, and even have acts of violence committed against us, with often little or no justice at our side. As a trans person, I'm in danger of being beaten up, raped or even murdered simply for needing to take a shit in a public bathroom. Honestly, you sound like you're only paying attention to some dumb kids on tumblr.



I dunno, I think that's a bit of an overreaction to me but I'm in Canada so that could be why


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## GreenZone (Aug 18, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> We have to be brave,


you're not brave... you live in a first world country and make up enemies and fake causes i'm current serving infantry been deployed twice you don't know what Oppression and bravery is... families walking for days through the desert to ask us for help that elderly man who ran across the street carrying a child and while getting shot up is brave cops who go out to try and make the world a little better at the risk of getting a shotgun blast to the face at a road stop is brave fire fighters going into burning crumbling buildings is brave doctors who have to say "there there it will be all right the sun will come up tomorrow" and what ever other pathetic bullshit he can think of while trying to comfort a mother who's baby has terminal cancer is brave  "oh but you're a straight white male!"

what you think life was easy for me? my dad tried to kill me when i was a baby because he was paranoid i wasn't his (ironically i look exactly like him) and then rant out never to be seen again my mum died in front of me when i was 15 and instead of being understanding my school bullied me for it and when i went to the teachers the next day i was walking to the bus stop everything went black then i woke up in hospital two days after having minor facial reconstruction and ive got only three family members 2 in their late 80s and a sister so mentally fucked up she's been in and out of psychological care for almost a decade not putting a bullet in my skull decades ago was brave

don't talk to me about brave you're not brave for saying you're the opposite gender



lelapinmort said:


> Oh, and actual equal rights. We can still get fired for being LGBT, discriminated against in public,


bullshit pure bullshit so you're telling me that America is pretty much the only Country in the world without a Fair work Ombudmsan or similar? bullshit


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> If you understood what it was like to be oppressed for something you were literally born as, you'd understand why LGBT people have to be bold. We have to be brave, because we continue to be oppressed. And after decades of fighting for our rights, we get to celebrate what victories we do have. After so long of people telling us we're not human, yeah, we get to celebrate what lives we do get to live. You can ignore that. Really. Saying no one cares anymore is your opinion. I'm sorry if you've ever experienced a few of our extremes. They get on my nerve too. But it's not fair of you to shit on us like you are. We don't try to make everything queer. We just want fair, realistic representation. Oh, and actual equal rights. We can still get fired for being LGBT, discriminated against in public, and even have acts of violence committed against us, with often little or no justice at our side. As a trans person, I'm in danger of being beaten up, raped or even murdered simply for needing to take a shit in a public bathroom. Honestly, you sound like you're only paying attention to some dumb kids on tumblr.
> 
> As for being Demisexual, yeah, you're not LGBT unless you're also a lesbian, or gay, or bi, or trans. I honestly hate that people (mostly on tumblr) try to group things like Demi and Ace in with LGBT. I agree that people still get bullied for it, and ace people still get abused by people who don't understand that they don't want to have sex, but it doesn't make them LGBT. Sure, they deserve a safe space to commune, and any LGBT community should be welcoming if they feel they belong there, but it just doesn't read LGBT to me. Sorry, folks. It's my personal opinion though, honestly in the grand scheme, we all want to feel safe and respected, so I get it.
> 
> Also Gender: Male/ Sexuality: Bi. (I used to say Pan, but honestly it's just as valid to say Bi. I'm still open to any gender. I'm also Omni. Which, btw, is not pan. Omni means you're attracted to other species. (Aliens, ty, I don't want to fuck animals for realsies.)



Thank you for this


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> you're not brave... you live in a first world country and make up enemies and fake causes i'm current serving infantry been deployed twice you don't know what Oppression and bravery is... families walking for days through the desert to ask us for help that elderly man who ran across the street carrying a child and while getting shot up is brave cops who go out to try and make the world a little better at the risk of getting a shotgun blast to the face at a road stop is brave fire fighters going into burning crumbling buildings is brave doctors who have to say "there there it will be all right the sun will come up tomorrow" and what ever other pathetic bullshit he can think of while trying to comfort a mother who's baby has terminal cancer is brave  "oh but you're a straight white male!"
> 
> what you think life was easy for me? my dad tried to kill me when i was a baby because he was paranoid i wasn't his (ironically i look exactly like him) and then rant out never to be seen again my mum died in front of me when i was 15 and instead of being understanding my school bullied me for it and when i went to the teachers the next day i was walking to the bus stop everything went black then i woke up in hospital two days after having minor facial reconstruction and ive got only three family members 2 in their late 80s and a sister so mentally fucked up she's been in and out of psychological care for almost a decade not putting a bullet in my skull decades ago was brave
> 
> ...



Hey, first world country citizen here, people is still being beaten up and even killed because of who they are can you please look at the fucking news. Nobody said your life was easy. Nobody said we have it worse than everyone. But we are still discriminated and that's a fact you're completely denying just because you have an "I had it worse so shut up" kind of argument. Honestly reading all that was just disgusting, go tell the parents of the dead victims of discrimination (ON FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES, YES) all of this. Go tell them they can't complain because "other people has it worse" or something on that line.


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## GreenZone (Aug 18, 2017)

Liyah said:


> Hey, first world country citizen here, people is still being beaten up and even killed because of who they are can you please look at the fucking news. Nobody said your life was easy. Nobody said we have it worse than everyone. But we are still discriminated and that's a fact you're completely denying just because you have an "I had it worse so shut up" kind of argument. Honestly reading all that was just disgusting, go tell the parents of the dead victims of discrimination (ON FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES, YES) all of this. Go tell them they can't complain because "other people has it worse" or something on that line.



i didn't say i had it tougher i said EVERYONE has it tough

you are not oppressed you are not discriminated against ive been in countries with real oppression it blows my mind that you people think you live under some kind of dictatorship


Liyah said:


> go tell the parents of the dead victims of discrimination


i will i'll tell all 26,000+ oh you meant gays in America? not Christians killed by Isis in the past yeah and a bit? oh ok

but according to you guys what ISIS does is ok though cause its ethnic or some bullshit


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## Sgt. Kai (Aug 18, 2017)

I'm confused... I like boys and girls...


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> i didn't say i had it tougher i said EVERYONE has it tough
> 
> you are not oppressed you are not discriminated against ive been in countries with real oppression it blows my mind that you people think you live under some kind of dictatorship
> 
> ...



You can't be fucking serious, really. 316 dead victims only this year because of homophobia just in one city, Madrid, Spain, first world country for the record. Everyone has it tough, but we have it tough because of who we love, or because of our gender. I seriously don't understand what's wrong with you, victims of ISIS don't erase victims of homophobia. I'm fucking sure you're one of these people who says racism also doesn't exist on first world countries, or sexism. You're fucking heartless.


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## GreenZone (Aug 18, 2017)

Sgt. Kai said:


> I'm confused... I like boys and girls...



i wish you could like be... pizza something and marry pizza


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## GreenZone (Aug 18, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> Spoken like a true privileged class. Just because other countries have it worse, doesn't mean we don't have oppressed classes. And no, not everyone has it the same. Some people here have it tougher than others, simply because of their classes. I don't care who you're fighting for if you don't care about your citizens, either. It means nothing if you shit on people the way you do. People like you wave your military status around as a reason to be cold and hateful, as bragging rights, and nothing else. And also, yeah, you did say that. You literally told me I don't know what being brave is, or what oppression is. When I HAVE experienced it, and I am brave for fighting for my rights, instead of sitting down and cowering to people like YOU. So go ahead, have your head up your ass OPINIONS, the rest of us are trying to do our part. You're not better than us because you're in the military. Seriously, I'm writing you off as a troll at this point, you're literally JUST hateful.




your hate filled words have made me seen the light only now in this darkest of hours do i now see the folly in what i have done... what i have become... my one hope is that you forgive me for my white privileged ways as penance i will now kill myself in the hopes that my oppressiveness will hurt no one any longer



Spoiler



and then the whole forum clapped


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## Yakamaru (Aug 18, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> Spoken like a true privileged class. Just because other countries have it worse, doesn't mean we don't have oppressed classes. And no, not everyone has it the same. Some people here have it tougher than others, simply because of their classes. I don't care who you're fighting for if you don't care about your citizens, either. It means nothing if you shit on people the way you do. People like you wave your military status around as a reason to be cold and hateful, as bragging rights, and nothing else. And also, yeah, you did say that. You literally told me I don't know what being brave is, or what oppression is. When I HAVE experienced it, and I am brave for fighting for my rights, instead of sitting down and cowering to people like YOU. So go ahead, have your head up your ass OPINIONS, the rest of us are trying to do our part. You're not better than us because you're in the military. Seriously, I'm writing you off as a troll at this point, you're literally JUST hateful.
> 
> By the way, ISIS kills gay people too, asshat. And so do Christians. Beat it.
> 
> ...


"Privileged class". What privileged class?

Also: What oppressed classes? Do you even know what oppressed means?


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## GreenZone (Aug 18, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> "Privileged class". What privileged class?
> 
> Also: What oppressed classes? Do you even know what oppressed means?



no, its time we throw off the charade she has us you being a white male are clearly incredibly wealthy and i being white and part of the Military am clearly part of the Schutzstaffel never mind the fact that i have... the worst job in the world and am called baby killer regularly and  now have crippling depression bordering on PTSD and permanent knee damage and was told to stop being a pussy until the doctor was like "this C**ts leg is about to fall off" no it true we are privileged

you in your mansion feasting on fine wines and unicorn for dinner and myself removing the oppressed from their homes and taking them to cattle trains that always leave full but return empty afterwards driving my (insert readers version of luxury car here) to MY mansion where i make move to my many slaves that work the plantations

its over Yakamaru we have been discovered


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## Sivath (Aug 18, 2017)

@GreenZone
Look, it's got nothing to do with other oppressed communities and people. 
Truth is, people do suffer for being queer. People do get attacked, kicked out, fired, murdered for being queer.
We're not comparing groups or saying queer rights are more important than any other rights.
We're just trying to protect ourselves. You can't just say that we can't do that because other people get their legs chopped off for whatever reason, while we're only getting abandoned by our friends and family, arrested and hanged in some countries or sometimes getting shot at other ones.

It seems that you're just spiteful and taking it out on 'privileged' people for complaining about their lives.

As I said, we're trying to protect ourselves. If you think you need that more, do it yourself.


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## ellaerna (Aug 18, 2017)

Well this thread certainly took a turn.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 18, 2017)

Why can't any topic on this site be brought up without certain people always latching on and ruining it all? I'm so mad that an innocent question about sexuality and gender has turned into yet another FAF controversy.


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## GreenZone (Aug 18, 2017)

Sivath said:


> @GreenZone
> Look, it's got nothing to do with other oppressed communities and people.
> Truth is, people do suffer for being queer. People do get attacked, kicked out, fired, murdered for being queer.
> We're not comparing groups or saying queer rights are more important than any other rights.
> ...



look i'll be honest you didn't resort to name calling and swearing so i'll be cereal

i'm sorry but you are just not oppressed you are not hunted and killed in large numbers you are not discriminated against i'm sorry but its just not true

lets look at the murder rates and this is coming from the FBI themselves Homophobic/trans phobic crimes have never made up more than 20% of yearly hate crimes and that's only counting hate crimes not crime in general going right back to the 70s so obviously that percentage is going to go down even lower when you take into account the national crime rate

and apart from that out of the roughly thousand ish crimes that happen each year only a couple dozen die that's nothing compared to the average 100,000 people murdered in America each year so i'm sorry but there's not some gay holocaust going on in America

as for discrimination i will fight this to the bitter end
Australia
America
UK
EU
NZ
and so on ALL have mandatory by the government gender and ethnic diversity quotas i'm sorry but you have more chance to get a job than a white straight dude even if he's more qualified simply because your gay my country is only just now trying to abolish this after a MASSIVE spike in youth unemployment

i support gays my whole story about joining the fandom was cause i was helping out a gay effeminate furry medic who was having a hard time fitting in i only just voted yes to gay marriage a few days ago you have my full support

but you are not oppressed or discriminated against i'm sorry the odd homophobe might call you slurs but they're the minority


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## Pipistrele (Aug 18, 2017)

I know some homosexuals who kinda prefer to stay away from LGBT community, due to, according to them, usually present queerness of "gay right" movement, increasing merchandization of parades, as well as occasional "us vs them" mentality detrimental to the whole "equality" cause. I'm not really in position to talk about it, but I can see their point.


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 18, 2017)

Sgt. Kai said:


> I'm confused... I like boys and girls...


Then you're bi, then, like me.


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 18, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> look i'll be honest you didn't resort to name calling and swearing so i'll be cereal
> 
> i'm sorry but you are just not oppressed you are not hunted and killed in large numbers you are not discriminated against i'm sorry but its just not true
> 
> ...



I totally agree that in this day and age most of the teens on the bandwagon feel like they're fighting, but they have it much better than their ancestors, and joining some parade where most people already accept them is not in any way the same as well years ago when the stonewalling riots had to go against police forces trying to shut them down or arrest them. The gays have it easier these days more than ever, it's true. I think a lot of people cling to past history still as if they live in the most dangerous parts of their life.

For most those deaths to happen to begin with though it implied that actual human beings killed other people for something innocuous as being in love or being too overly feminine/masculine, and for every person that didn't doe there's several others being targets for harassment  and anger.

Thing is most LGBT people still get bullied or shunned by their families so even if it's not the most discriminated, endangered group in the world most these folks are still facing some sort of pain to some degree and it's only just started to taper off into comfortable first world begrudgery without instant threat of death


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 18, 2017)

JamesOtters said:


> ???! Pansexual means Omnisexual, which means you can be attracted to any gender. So kind of like Bisexual, but *with all the genders instead of 2*.



Probably my bitchy opinion but I dislike the "more than two genders" comment because it implies more than necessary, like 50-something for the sake of people that need their special label, and it treats gender like a game, and things like that severely undermine any realistic gender movements where the far right will pretty much write off trannies as nutcases. Gender is not some word you slap on to feel special. There is a finite amount of genders based on WHAT ACTUALLY EXISTS, not some rainbow of them to pander to all these lGBT bandwagoners


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 18, 2017)

I've gotten a few reports about this thread growing needlessly hostile.

I'm dropping the following notices now:

1)  I will be doing a review of some posts, and I will take what action is necessary if any rules in the area of malicious speech, harassment, or the like have been broken.

2)  If you are finding yourself too riled up to remain civil in the thread, step away from it.


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

WolfNightV4X1 said:


> Probably my bitchy opinion but I dislike the "more than two genders" comment because it implies more than necessary, like 50-something for the sake of people that need their special label, and it treats gender like a game, and things like that severely undermine any realistic gender movements where the far right will pretty much write off trannies as nutcases. Gender is not some word you slap on to feel special. There is a finite amount of genders based on WHAT ACTUALLY EXISTS, not some rainbow of them to pander to all these lGBT bandwagoners


Honestly, I don't exactly get what you mean here, but like, there're almost infinite genders. Gender moves on a whole spectrum, says neurobiology, which is *surprise* science.

Gender and sex are different tho. Gender is something deeper on our brains, and can be confusing because of that. It's hard to explain.


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 18, 2017)

Liyah said:


> Honestly, I don't exactly get what you mean here, but like, there're almost infinite genders. Gender moves on a whole spectrum, says neurobiology, which is *surprise* science.
> 
> Gender and sex are different tho. Gender is something deeper on our brains, and can be confusing because of that. It's hard to explain.



It's not all that confusing, people have biological traits typical of male and female traits, that's it. Some males may have female ones and vice versa, I explained all this in a previous comment so I won't explain it again. But that gray area between male and female does not imply hundreds of infinite genders, just an androgynous person you could call "genderless" or "gender variant", you don't need millions of label for the same thing to pander to your wants


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 18, 2017)

I'll leave it at that, prefaced that discussion with "my bitchy opinion" on that so my word isn't law here :|


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

WolfNightV4X1 said:


> It's not all that confusing, people have biological traits typical of male and female traits, that's it. Some males may have female ones and vice versa, I explained all this in a previous comment so I won't explain it again. But that gray area between male and female does not imply hundreds of infinite genders, just an androgynous person you could call "genderless" or "gender variant", you don't need millions of label for the same thing to pander to your wants


You're seriously and completely ignoring neurobiology here. And, again, sex and gender are different. You can be phisically a woman, but tour gender be male, or something else. I can try to look for an article with information about this if you want!


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## WolfNightV4X1 (Aug 18, 2017)

Liyah said:


> You're seriously and completely ignoring neurobiology here. And, again, sex and gender are different. You can be phisically a woman, but tour gender be male, or something else. I can try to look for an article with information about this if you want!



They are different, but all gender is is the sex someone experiences which may be different from their biological sex, and this is largely due to misalignment of typical sex traits, including neurological.

This doesn't automatically mean there are infinite genders, just people with varying sex traits that don't align the typical male and female, which of course has many different combinations but all those combinations shouldn't be brand new genders. Those people are either trans-man or woman (this still typically counts as man/woman in some cases), Both/neither (genderfluid/agender: the "gray area" that people fall into), or just Man/Woman. Anything past that is frivolous. I could find a list of gender terms and see which category they fall into exactly, they aren't in any way indicative of something brand new.


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## Saiko (Aug 18, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> you're not brave... you live in a first world country and make up enemies and fake causes


We have to be worried about our families disowning us and leaving us on the street with no future. Sure, maybe it's not as brave as being in combat. But it's still fucking terrifying, and that's why coming out requires bravery.



GreenZone said:


> but you are not oppressed or discriminated against i'm sorry the odd homophobe might call you slurs but they're the minority


We're not particularly concerned about homophobic slurs. We're concerned with the fact that until 2003, we could be jailed for sodomy. Until 2015, it was illegal for us to marry in most states. And I could still be fired or evicted simply because I'm gay. Those are all government-sanctioned, systematic forms of discrimination; and that constitutes oppression.


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

WolfNightV4X1 said:


> They are different, but all gender is is the sex someone experiences which may be different from their biological sex, and this is largely due to misalignment of typical sex traits, including neurological.
> 
> This doesn't automatically mean there are infinite genders, just people with varying sex traits that don't align the typical male and female, which of course has many different combinations but all those combinations shouldn't be brand new genders. Those people are either trans-man or woman (still a binary gender), Both/neither (genderfluid/agender: the "gray area" that people fall into), or just Man/Woman. Anything past that is frivolous. I could find a list of gender terms and see which category they fall into exactly, they aren't in any way indicative of something brand new.


Okay, while I feel you're not using some terms correctly, I can agree with this. The thing is, the only reason there're almost infinite genders is because it's on a spectrum. They all can be labeled on like, four or maybe one or two more: Male, female, agender, genderfluid. But there're variations, infinite variations. And those variations don't have anything to do with your phisical body, like, maybe you are really feminine looking but you are a man, and you're not less of a man because of that, or maybe you're super masculine but are agender, it's just something deeper.

I'm sorry if it feels like I'm repeating myself, it's hard for me to explain myself on English! The thing is, on an ideal world there would be no need for those labels if we all could acknowledge that gender is not something super static with just a few "options". I kinda wish for that world tbh.


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## Saiko (Aug 18, 2017)

There's also the fact that many states are now reacting with bullshit "religious freedom" legislation that allows refusal of services to homosexuals. Many of these have included legislation that would/does allow school counselors to refuse to help an LGBT student. Sure, that student is free to "go to another counselor" or "hire a therapist," but many schools only have one counselor; and many students can't afford a private therapist or can't safely ask their parents for help.

We're in a situation where the "comfy" rights of others often supersede our access to critical and potentially life-saving services. This creates unequal access to our own rights, which is itself another form of oppression.



Yakamaru said:


> lawdigest.uslegal.com: United States Sexual Discrimination and Orientation Law Summary and Law Digest
> 
> LGBT employment discrimination in the United States - Wikipedia
> 
> Recommendation: Look up the laws on discrimination based on sexuality in your State, and whether it's actually legal or not.


Been there. Done that. Seen it happen.


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## Liyah (Aug 18, 2017)

Yakamaru said:


> TL;DR: What you feel does not equate to what you are. Feeling like you are a male or a female does not make you into one. Nature and biology do not care at all on how you feel.



Biology has many aspects. Like, wow! neurobiology. Neuro-biology. A -science-. You know what that is, right. I'm seriously not gonna argue with someone who erases entire investigations about transgender people just because they don't say what you want, I've been here too many times  but you're right, feelings doesn't equal what you are. However, for example a transgender woman doesn't just "feel" like she's a woman, she's a woman and that's it, but her body doesn't "match" her gender.


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## Dongding (Aug 18, 2017)

Liyah said:


> ...The thing is, on an ideal world there would be no need for those labels if we all could acknowledge that gender is not something super static with just a few "options". I kinda wish for that world tbh.




Honestly I usually bring up "pretending no one has any sort of genitals or physical traits" and use it as an example if I happen to talk to someone about comparisons between men and women. It amazes me how fixated people are about genitals. A comparison involving two PEOPLE who are just adults responsible for their actions, takes the wind out of any opposition's sails when vying for special treatment for their prefered group. It's weird how much something people claim is superficial and shouldn't be a factor, but it generally seems to also be their entire argument once you take sex out of the picture. I don't feel like in this sort of situation one group should get any sort of special treatment over the other because it's simply people we're comparing; not dicks and pussies and all the stigma attached to them.

I'd hate not to point out that I realize not everyone is born with the same advantages right out of the gate, and things like being born into a troubled or struggling family where money is an every day struggle or being born with mental disabilities, or any situation a person reasonably can't escape are going to hold them back a great deal with no alternative. Obviously those people have been dealt a shitty hand right from the start and deserve help. I believe in social programs for those who don't abuse them. I don't feel like people should be making such a big deal about gender and sex, though. A lot of it is just dirty laundry some choose to show everyone. I can't know what it's like to live life feeling uncomfortable in my own skin, but I don't view it as a disability.

This post won't be popular lol.


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## EvanB1912 (Aug 19, 2017)

SSJ3Mewtwo said:


> I've gotten a few reports about this thread growing needlessly hostile.
> 
> I'm dropping the following notices now:
> 
> ...


All I wanted to know is if there was a trend, I didn't expect Hell to be unleased... :0


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## Sivath (Aug 19, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> but you are not oppressed or discriminated against i'm sorry the odd homophobe might call you slurs but they're the minority


I don't think you understand that queers are in all countries.

Here, if two guys hold their hands, everyone will stare in absolute shock, take pictures, push them and attack them. Don't tell me it's not true, because we did it as a school project. And it got turned down by our professor for 'disrupting society'.
Coming out to parents almost always go badly. I don't know a single person in Korea who weren't yelled at, punished, abused or kicked out for being queer.
Gay marriage is illegal here.
If I knew I were not to be discriminated against, why wouldn't I come out? My student came back from a trip to Brazil and told me about seeing a gay couple there. Said he was shocked, freaked out, disgusted, and amused. You think most of my pals would understand 'no homo' even when I'm bi?
Homophobes are definitely not the minority here.
Ever heard of queer migration? That's when queer people escape their country's oppression by moving to the countries you have listed. 

And Korea's definitely not the worst when it comes to sexuality and gender. There are still plenty of countries that will gladly hang you for that.

You haven't lived their lives. How can you be so certain that discrimination doesn't happen if all you've seen is queers from your happy rainbow country?


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## lelapinmort (Aug 19, 2017)

@GreenZone 
1. Do not call me she. I am male. You shouldn't assume someone's pronouns. 
2. At LEAST 17 transgender people have been attacked this year so far. Some of them murdered. That's a little more than two a month. And that's just the ones that have been reported. And before you go on about how people are killed all the time, these attacks were hate crimes. Specifically because they were transgender. These people, and many more, are targeted for who they are. That's not something a cis person has to worry about. You either need to stop ignoring the violence and OPPRESSION (look up the definition) that we suffer, or just admit that you don't care, and stop trying to force your pseudo-intellectual hogwash down our throats. We know our experiences, you don't. You don't get to decide what things are like for us. Trust me, we would love it if we could snap our fingers and life for us would be how you think it is. Oh, and if you supported us, you wouldn't treat us this way either. As for your horrible experience in the military? You made that choice to be there. I'm sorry you've experienced horrible things, but you had the choice to go or stay. We don't get the choice to take oppression or leave it. Unless we commit suicide, which is unfortunately what a long history of LGBT people have felt they had to do to escape the pain. Of oppression. See, I keep using that word, because I do not think you realize what it means. Anyway, enjoy your life! I'm 10000% certain it won't end just because you are white.  

@Yakamaru
You're literally a troll, and that's a hypothetical question, I'm not humoring you.


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## Pipistrele (Aug 19, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> @GreenZone
> At LEAST 17 transgender people have been attacked this year so far. Some of them murdered. That's a little more than two a month. And that's just the ones that have been reported. And before you go on about how people are killed all the time, these attacks were hate crimes. Specifically because they were transgender. These people, and many more, are targeted for who they are.


Are there any proofs, though? I mean, no disrespect, but the way you put it sounds more like assumption than anything.



> That's not something a cis person has to worry about. You either need to stop ignoring the violence and OPPRESSION (look up the definition) that we suffer, or just admit that you don't care, and stop trying to force your pseudo-intellectual hogwash down our throats. We know our experiences, you don't. You don't get to decide what things are like for us. Trust me, we would love it if we could snap our fingers and life for us would be how you think it is. Oh, and if you supported us, you wouldn't treat us this way either. As for your horrible experience in the military? You made that choice to be there. I'm sorry you've experienced horrible things, but you had the choice to go or stay. We don't get the choice to take oppression or leave it. Unless we commit suicide, which is unfortunately what a long history of LGBT people have felt they had to do to escape the pain. Of oppression. See, I keep using that word, because I do not think you realize what it means. Anyway, enjoy your life! I'm 10000% certain it won't end just because you are white.


The legitimate question though is "Why should we care". Cis people are already becoming something of scapegoat community as it is (if you're cis, you're often hated by default by many pro-homosexual communities and LGBT rights activists for your "priveleges", whether you ask for it or not), and every time we try to do something to smooth the situation out, it often results in further arguing and more demands. I'll be more than happy to discuss the subject with someone on an equal ground (something i do on daily basis, in fact, being friends with variety of folks who happen to be homosexual), instead of being screamed at and pursued into radicalism just for the fact that I'm a born-male guy who likes girls (and I'm not even_ that_ priveleged_, _since I was raised in poor Russian family during post-USSR crisis - but well, many assume I am, since I don't like dicks_)_.

Sure, there are folks who do shitty things to somebody who shares your way of life, but by trying to shift all the blame on cis people in their entirety, you're just kinda giving more reasons for us to not care about transgenderism or LGBT community in general - like, "You'll hate us anyway, what's the point". And I mean, again, _why should we care_? Caring too much about your community is kinda unequal by default - it's akin to thinking about you as "those trans folks" first and foremost, instead of treating you like, well, just people. I prefer to treat people as people, that's why I don't care much about your advantages or misadvantages.


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## Dongding (Aug 19, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> And I mean, again, _why should we care_? Caring too much about your community is kinda unequal by default - it's akin to thinking about you as "those trans folks" first and foremost, instead of treating you like, well, just people.



@Pipestrile:
This is another thing that's always really bothered me: reverse racism. (Though this applies to any group I suppose.)

When you choose to treat someone different because of race or something they couldn't reasonably change (whether you are treating them better or worse), it's still discrimination. It shows that you consider the person too different to treat in an equal way.

(Edited for spelling)


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Aug 19, 2017)

Dongding said:


> @Pipestrile:
> This is another thing that's always really borhered me: reverse racism. (Though this applies to any group I suppose.)
> 
> When you choose to treat someone different because of race or something they couldn't reasonably change (whether you are treating them better or worse), it's still discrimination. It shows that you consider the person too different to treat in an equal way.



There's no such thing as reverse racism. Racism is racism no matter how you look at it


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## Dongding (Aug 19, 2017)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> There's no such thing as reverse racism. Racism is racism no matter how you look at it


Lol yeah that was my point. People don't recognize that treating others nicely can be discrimination as well. I don't know if reverse racism is a real term or anything. Reverse-discrimination is probably better for this situation at least, since it's more vague.


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## Saiko (Aug 19, 2017)

Dongding said:


> Lol yeah that was my point. People don't recognize that treating others nicely can be discrimination as well.


Wat? How does that work?


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## Dongding (Aug 19, 2017)

Saiko said:


> Wat? How does that work?


I'll dig up the relevant part of my post for you.


Dongding said:


> When you choose to treat someone different because of race or something they couldn't reasonably change (whether you are treating them better or worse), it's still discrimination. It shows that you consider the person too different to treat in an *equal* way.


I bolded the keyword too. :3


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## Saiko (Aug 19, 2017)

Dongding said:


> I'll dig up the relevant part of my post for you.
> 
> I bolded the keyword too. :3


There's no need to be patronizing. You know chose a strange wording. Ironically you could have just said people need to not be patronizing to minorities and whatnot, and it would have been much clearer. That is indeed a common complaint from minorities.

However, in response I would caution that avoiding patronization shouldn't become an excuse to be a dick. Simply being a nice person to everyone is an option too.


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## Dongding (Aug 19, 2017)

Saiko said:


> There's no need to be patronizing. You know chose a strange wording. Ironically you could have just said people need to not be patronizing to minorities and whatnot, and it would have been much clearer. That is indeed a common complaint from minorities.
> 
> However, in response I would caution that avoiding patronization shouldn't become an excuse to be a dick. Simply being a nice person to everyone is an option too.



The actual ironic part was I really wasn't. I tried to be as clear as possible with my original wording. There was something specific I was trying to say and you asked about it so I dug up the relevant part and made the very most important word that could easily be missed, unmissable. And you missed the point a second time. I'll take half the blame I suppose since my wording is so confusing.

As for being patronizing to minorities, I'm not sure where you're getting that vibe. I was saying treat others *equally*. You're going above and below what I actually posted. It's not about a choice to be nice or be a dick. If you feel you need to be nicer to someone *because* they're black or gay, then there's n underlying reason you're doing that, and it's dishonest. People don't need pity niceness that some people seem compelled to give.

At no point did I say be a dick.


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## Saiko (Aug 19, 2017)

Dongding said:


> The actual ironic part was I really wasn't. I tried to be as clear as possible with my original wording. There was something specific I was trying to say and you asked about it so I dug up the relevant part and made the very most important word that could easily be missed, unmissable. And you missed the point a second time. I'll take half the blame I suppose since my wording is so confusing.
> 
> As for being patronizing to minorities, I'm not sure where you're getting that vibe. I was saying treat others *equally*. You're going above and below what I actually posted. It's not about a choice to be nice or be a dick. If you feel you need to be nicer to someone *because* they're black or gay, then there's n underlying reason you're doing that, and it's dishonest. People don't need pity niceness that some people seem compelled to give.
> 
> At no point did I say be a dick.


Oh, I'm sorry then. I read your post in the wrong tone (hooray for text-based communication). And don't worry. We agree on this matter. Being nicer because of race is a form of patronization, and that's a problem. I also wasn't accusing you of saying it's okay to be a dick, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm just concerned about others taking a valid point and using it to justify perpetuating the opposite problem.


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## Pipistrele (Aug 19, 2017)

Dongding said:


> Lol yeah that was my point. People don't recognize that treating others nicely can be discrimination as well. I don't know if reverse racism is a real term or anything. Reverse-discrimination is probably better for this situation at least, since it's more vague.


"Positive discrimination" is the legal term, as far as I know. In business, it more or less means "giving advantage to unfairly treated classes over people who are actually good at their job", but it's often used to describe general minority overprotection as well.


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## Dongding (Aug 19, 2017)

Ah okay. Thanks Pipistrele. It's nice when there's an actual term I can use instead of paragraphs written with split attention when I should be working.

Also sorry about being snippy, Saiko. I really was just trying to be extremely clear when I wrote my response to you the first time. My second more snippy response was because it seemed to me like you were purposely twisting my words and I'm very careful to try not to upset people here; especially about touchy subjects like this. I appreciate the offer for a no-hurt-feelings-truce due to mutual miscommunication. They're rare on forums lol.


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## Mandragoras (Aug 19, 2017)

Yeah, being patronised by well-meaning people isn't nearly so unpleasant as active hostility, but it is another way in which one is turned into the Other, particularly if there's an objectifying tinge to it. "You're so exotic!" "You don't look mannish at all!" And so forth.

On-topic: Biologically male, otherwise IDGAF; favours cute boyish folks.


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## lelapinmort (Aug 20, 2017)

@Pipistrele 
Ugh, so I forgot to supply the link. My bad. Honestly, why is it so important? It bothers me when people are so quick, to question stuff like this, as if we're lying just to make you feel bad for us or something.. Here...


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## Pipistrele (Aug 20, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> @Pipistrele
> Ugh, so I forgot to supply the link. My bad. Honestly, why is it so important? It bothers me when people are so quick, to question stuff like this, as if we're lying just to make you feel bad for us or something.. Here...


I'm not denying the deaths themselves, I'm just asking for a proof that majority of cases were indeed hate crimes. At least one death from the list is supposed (the one with the river), and from reading some of the reports, it becomes clear that while there are a couple of nasty cases, some of the murderers didn't even have enough connections with victims to know about their transgender status in the first place. And, well, " disproportionately " my butt, white cis people getting killed all the time - statistically, there are more victims from majority, if mainly due to it being, well, majority (bigger population leads to more total casualities).

I'm not trying to put you into guilt or something, I was just kinda put off by aggressive tone of your post. You put it that way that "white cis people" are too priveleged to worry about problems (which is an overstatement to say the least), that you're being somewhat opressed by "white cis people" (despite nobody really attacking or bothering you that much in the thread), and that somehow "white cis people" are responsible for well being of your community (which will only lead to aforementioned positive discrimination), as well as collectively responsible for criminal scum that happens to hate you for some weird reason (as if we correlate with them or something). As somebody who sees himself and others as "people", rather than "white/black/cis/trans/etc", I found that behavior genuinely offensive.


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## Shinigami Ryuuka (Aug 20, 2017)

I'm really unsure at this point. Im attracted to both males and females but Im leaning more towards males so not sure if that makes me bi or not. Bicurious, anyway


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## Balskarr (Aug 20, 2017)

*Steps into thread*
Well this became a shitstorm.
*Nope back out*


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## GreenZone (Aug 20, 2017)

this is in a nutshell example of the LBGT, Feminist, SJW movement in a nutshell


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## Pipistrele (Aug 20, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> www.youtube.com: Russia: Gay activist is attacked by paratroopers on national holiday (no offence @Pipistrele )


VDV paratroopers are an exceptional bunch of idiots, really. There is an "airborne forces day" in Russia, during which many paratroopers celebrate by drinking a lot, swimming in fountains, eating watermelons, and just disturbing everybody. Many of them aren't even real paratroopers - just random guys who pretend to be one as an excuse to get drunk and wreak stuff. In general, it's just a minority (most troopers just celebrate it at home in civil manner), and police usually tightly controls the situation, but yeah, it's something of a national problem, to the point where it was questioned and debated whether we should cancel the holiday completely.

That's speaking about the context. Basically, the guy in the video started doing all the gay activism stuff around crapton of drunk, aggressive soldiers who were trained by default in homophobic condition. Not defending the paratroopers (as I said, nobody really likes those idiots, including police), but what the guy did is an equivalent of starting the campfire inside the firework storage, and then complaining about why everything exploded. It's "Jackass" level of bravery and suicidal stupidity, really.


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## lajm (Aug 20, 2017)

agender pansexual here, ready to get grilled by everyone here


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## Liyah (Aug 20, 2017)

Shinigami Ryuuka said:


> I'm really unsure at this point. Im attracted to both males and females but Im leaning more towards males so not sure if that makes me bi or not. Bicurious, anyway


Yeah, that'd be bi, bisexuals can have preferences ^^


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## Liyah (Aug 20, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> I'm not denying the deaths themselves, I'm just asking for a proof that majority of cases were indeed hate crimes. At least one death from the list is supposed (the one with the river), and from reading some of the reports, it becomes clear that while there are a couple of nasty cases, some of the murderers didn't even have enough connections with victims to know about their transgender status in the first place. And, well, " disproportionately " my butt, white cis people getting killed all the time - statistically, there are more victims from majority, if mainly due to it being, well, majority (bigger population leads to more total casualities).
> 
> I'm not trying to put you into guilt or something, I was just kinda put off by aggressive tone of your post. You put it that way that "white cis people" are too priveleged to worry about problems (which is an overstatement to say the least), that you're being somewhat opressed by "white cis people" (despite nobody really attacking or bothering you that much in the thread), and that somehow "white cis people" are responsible for well being of your community (which will only lead to aforementioned positive discrimination), as well as collectively responsible for criminal scum that happens to hate you for some weird reason (as if we correlate with them or something). As somebody who sees himself and others as "people", rather than "white/black/cis/trans/etc", I found that behavior genuinely offensive.


Just pointing something out, while a lot of straight people die, they never die because of their sexuality. And that's the point. They're too privileged to worry about discrimination BECAUSE OF THEIR SEXUALITY. They could have discrimination for being black. Or women. Or just none at all and still be killed. But LGBT+ people are killed because of their sexuality or because of being trans and that's the problem


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## Pipistrele (Aug 20, 2017)

Liyah said:


> Just pointing something out, while a lot of straight people die, they never die because of their sexuality. And that's the point. They're too privileged to worry about discrimination BECAUSE OF THEIR SEXUALITY. They could have discrimination for being black. Or women. Or just none at all and still be killed. But LGBT+ people are killed because of their sexuality or because of being trans and that's the problem


Sure thing, and that's pretty damn bad, and I don't deny that - I just don't agree with the fact that straight people should hold guilt and take responsibility for that by default. We_ all_ as society should strive for the better, by being good examples to follow for the next generation, as well as finding solutions to eliminate conditions leading to crime life (after all, not many people with good, fulfilling life actually commit hate crimes). But while I don't agree with @GreenZone  for the most part (I think he's being too radical), if reading the posts, @lelapinmort 's logic seems to operate by principle of "If you belong to majority, you're automatically obliged to help minority to atone the crimes of your community", which is something I find wrong on several levels. It's like the whole "White guilt" thing, only on a wider scale.


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## Amiir (Aug 20, 2017)

''Are you part of LGBT'' makes me cringe a little, no offence. I'll just say I'm a gay guy but don't support the movement mainly because it's made up of progressive leftists. They seriously think gay parades will somehow increase acceptance when personally I think it's just an excuse for a bunch of attention whores to make displays of indecency. Surely that will help building a better image of homos! Don't get me wrong I can be pretty, let's say, ''sexually open'' myself (I draw porn for goodness' sake) but I believe there's a time and place for that. I do it here only with other furfags and with people I know will be okay with it. IRL though decorum is mandatory: I'm not saying that you can't wear women's clothing as a man, for instance, all I'm saying is to have some self respect and not act like a slut, not IRL unless you do it in places meant for that


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## Revates (Aug 20, 2017)

Amiir said:


> ''Are you part of LGBT'' makes me cringe a little, no offence. I'll just say I'm a gay guy but don't support the movement mainly because it's made up of progressive leftists. They seriously think gay parades will somehow increase acceptance when personally I think it's just an excuse for a bunch of attention whores to make displays of indecency. Surely that will help building a better image of homos! Don't get me wrong I can be pretty, let's say, ''sexually open'' myself (I draw porn for goodness' sake) but I believe there's a time and place for that. I do it here only with other furfags and with people I know will be okay with it. IRL though decorum is mandatory: I'm not saying that you can't wear women's clothing as a man, for instance, all I'm saying is to have some self respect and not act like a slut, not IRL unless you do it in places meant for that



Heh, you're a fag.


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## Simo (Aug 20, 2017)

I'm a progressive, liberal gay male who thinks rich folks should be taxed more and poor folks should be taxed less, and I would never fuck Donald Trump, no matter how much he paid. Even with a ten foot pole.


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## Liyah (Aug 20, 2017)

Amiir said:


> ''Are you part of LGBT'' makes me cringe a little, no offence. I'll just say I'm a gay guy but don't support the movement mainly because it's made up of progressive leftists. They seriously think gay parades will somehow increase acceptance when personally I think it's just an excuse for a bunch of attention whores to make displays of indecency. Surely that will help building a better image of homos! Don't get me wrong I can be pretty, let's say, ''sexually open'' myself (I draw porn for goodness' sake) but I believe there's a time and place for that. I do it here only with other furfags and with people I know will be okay with it. IRL though decorum is mandatory: I'm not saying that you can't wear women's clothing as a man, for instance, all I'm saying is to have some self respect and not act like a slut, not IRL unless you do it in places meant for that


You know... If you're gay you're a part of the LGBT+ want it or not. The "G" does not stand for "Galapago" or something. It's just a colective.

The pride celebration is a different thing of course. Don't like it? Don't celebrate, but for many it's the only moment in which they can truly feel support. It's also celebrated as a reminder that we're still alive despite all the people who want us dead, so it also works as a "fuck you look at me I'm still here". The celebration on many countries also comes with a lot of talks on the matter, which help LGBT+ people themselves to come out, feel supported, etc, but also for people outside the colective just to understand all of that, which is great for, for example, parents with LGBT+ sons and daughters or whatever in between.


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## Simo (Aug 20, 2017)

Liyah said:


> You know... If you're gay you're a part of the LGBT+ want it or not. The "G" does not stand for "Galapago" or something. It's just a colective.
> 
> The pride celebration is a different thing of course. Don't like it? Don't celebrate, but for many it's the only moment in which they can truly feel support. It's also celebrated as a reminder that we're still alive despite all the people who want us dead, so it also works as a "fuck you look at me I'm still here". The celebration on many countries also comes with a lot of talks on the matter, which help LGBT+ people themselves to come out, feel supported, etc, but also for people outside the colective just to understand all of that, which is great for, for example, parents with LGBT+ sons and daughters or whatever in between.



I think this is a good way to put things. When I came out it was tough in a number of ways, namely, that it was a small town in northern Michigan, I was 16, and it was in the late 1980s. (yes, I am _that_ old) What I think made it both harder and easier is that I was also this rebellious punk rock sort, mohawk and all, so that being different wasn't such a huge deal. But I never did feel like I was really a part of 'gay' culture, and I recall feeling this terrible loneliness in that there didn't seem to be many gay guys like me; they tended to like Madonna and thumpa-thumpa disco and stuff like that, I was more into Dead Kennedys and Joy Division and rebellious boys on skateboards. So there was a huge disconnect, in that sense: I never really felt 'accepted' by the gay support groups in college, in a certain way, I think I seemed like a novelty. And the few times I went to a gay bar, ouch: I felt surrounded by TV stereotypes with The Village People blaring.

But at the same time, I never put folks who were into this down, because I knew what a struggle it could be, just to live, through those tough years of growing up, and survive it all. And if some of them had to cleave to a certain group mentality, well, we're all fallible human beings, and I figured, who am I to judge?

So even though I've only been to maybe one gay pride event, and a handful of gay bars in my life, I'm not gonna shit on everyone else's parade, and their experiences, and what they had to overcome. So in my time, I've written poetry, some fiction, and tried to give voice to others who are gay, and have felt or feel similarly isolated. But just to put down the whole 'movement' seems of no real value.


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## GreenZone (Aug 20, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> But while I don't agree with @GreenZone for the most part (I think he's being too radical), if reading the posts



mate i literally searched "gays in Russia" i was trying to acknowledge the homophobia in slavic countries it had nothing to do with race and if anything we're the same race 

i had a section commander who defected from the union  and was a veteren of the soviet afghan war i know how fucked Russia can be spending months in close proximity with 6-8 people in the wilderness gives you a lot of time to talk to one another i'm not saying Russian and Slavic morals and shit are bad its just "different" and a lot of it is understandable when you take into account their history of being invaded every 6 seconds


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## Pipistrele (Aug 20, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> mate i literally searched "gays in Russia" i was trying to acknowledge the homophobia in slavic countries it had nothing to do with race and if anything we're the same race
> 
> i had a section commander who defected from the union  and was a veteren of the soviet afghan war i know how fucked Russia can be spending months in close proximity with 6-8 people in the wilderness gives you a lot of time to talk to one another i'm not saying Russian and Slavic morals and shit are bad its just "different" and a lot of it is understandable when you take into account their history of being invaded every 6 seconds


Nah, i'm not about "slavs being homophobic", I'm about you being too aggressive over the whole thing just like @lelapinmort ("extreme vs extreme", nothing healthy usually comes from that). As for Russian/Slavic morals, they're much more loose and liberal in modern days - being gay in Russia is nothing unusual, and it's already becoming accepted in public places, especially in cities like St. Petersburg and Moscow (provincial towns accept changes at a bit slower rate, but that's to be expected). People often think we castrate gays and hang lesbians here or something, and often point at anti-gay laws, but said anti-gay laws were proposed by Vitaty Milonov (who is pretty much a political laughingstock - a mix between George W. Bush and Jack Thompson), and nobody takes them seriously anyway, so the problem is blown out of proportion.


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## GreenZone (Aug 20, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> I'm about you being too aggressive over the whole thing



ive explained this on another thread but i'll be more simplified with it i sound aggressive but i'm not i have a short fuse with certain types of people particularly really sheltered "me me me me everything that happens around me is the world the rest of the world doesn't exist" kinda thing but i can't help it this is something that happens to Infantry we sound angry we have short fuses there's an actual name for it but i forget what it is now its a minor psychological thing i can't explain it there's actually courses some people need to do before leaving the Military to learn to be a normal person

so yeah i can't help it i mean in this job a simple greeting would make some on this forum probably cry 



Pipistrele said:


> but said anti-gay laws were proposed by Vitaty Milonov (who is pretty much a political laughingstock - a mix between George W. Bush and Jack Thompson), and nobody takes them seriously anyway, so the problem is blown out of proportion.



ok well i'll admit that's my own fault then the only Russian publication we can get in English is RT which as you would know can sometimes be nonbiased and other times push a certain agenda


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## Liyah (Aug 20, 2017)

Amiir said:


> By your same logic any black person should support BLM just because they're black. The G stands for those gays who choose to adhere to your movement. I don't like it and I'm not automatically part of it just because I'm a homosexual
> 
> There are more constructive ways to forward the LGBT cause other than prancing around town like a couple of attention seeking sluts. The LGBT community gets extensive coverage in media even without parades which are thus useless in the ''look at me I'm still here'' aspect. Everyone knows homos exist. There exist several sites and phone lines where one can seek the support you speak of. Parents who are not accepting of their sons/daughters for their sexuality will not do a 180 just because a parader said please (let's be real, said parents would never even attend a parade in the first place). Instead, LGBT members are more prone to calling out those who don't like gays (homophobe, bigot etc.) instead of engaging in a constructive conversation with them, maybe change their viewpoints. I also can't think of anyone who would genuinely want to kill us outside of them muzzies. Hardline christians and anti-gays limit themselves to hate on us, nothing more. It's shitty but we can live with the latter two. We have the luck of living in first world countries and here we are not nearly as endangered as the LGBT movement makes us out to be. In the past? We were. Now? Not anymore, not physically at least. I know this because I'm gay and no one ever wanted to abuse me for it. This oppression complex is detrimental to the cause the LGBT movement is supposed to strive towards and only enforces a us and them mentality when there has no reason to be



Well, I'll still keep saying it on a more clear way: LGBT+ stands for a group of people, not for a movement. Then, there's a movement. But you, since you're gay, are a part of the LGBT+ colective, you decide if you wanna take part of the movement or not.

And about the parents part, I'll put mine as an example. They weren't exactly happy when I told them I was lesbian, they kept on saying that was just a phase, that I didn't know what I want, and I was just like 15 years old, it affected me to see that my feelings weren't apparently valid for them. But some of their friends took them to LGBT+ pride, to some of those talks and suddenly they were so supportive. They still go to pride almost every year, and I couldn't be more happy. It's not for extremelly homophobic parents, but for those who are not familiar with all of this or are just confused.

About the last part... "I know this because I'm gay and no one ever wanted to abuse me for it", well I ate today so there's no hunger in the world. Also today it's cold outside so climate change is a lie. I'll repeat that on my city, Madrid, Spain, first world country, +300 people were killed just because of LGBTphobia in one year. A man and a woman almost killed their "son" a few months ago, "he" was 8 years old, and told them "he" didn't wanted to be a boy, but a girl. One of my best friends is punched constantly by his father, who wants to take him to a psichologist because of his "mental illness" (my friend is gay).

But hey lucky you, you've never suffered that kind of discrimination so it doesn't exist, right?


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## ToddTheMutt (Aug 20, 2017)

Liyah said:


> Well, I'll still keep saying it on a more clear way: LGBT+ stands for a group of people, not for a movement. Then, there's a movement. But you, since you're gay, are a part of the LGBT+ colective, you decide if you wanna take part of the movement or not.
> 
> And about the parents part, I'll put mine as an example. They weren't exactly happy when I told them I was lesbian, they kept on saying that was just a phase, that I didn't know what I want, and I was just like 15 years old, it affected me to see that my feelings weren't apparently valid for them. But some of their friends took them to LGBT+ pride, to some of those talks and suddenly they were so supportive. They still go to pride almost every year, and I couldn't be more happy. It's not for extremelly homophobic parents, but for those who are not familiar with all of this or are just confused.
> 
> ...



Here things are quite different. LGBT+ is seen and state as a movement most of the time, in a way that when you do talk about LGBT+ we do add 'movement' after it and I can basically swear to you that I have never heard the term without 'movement' after it. 

So technically where I live, on my country, you can be gay but not be a part of the community, because here we do have homosexuals who don't accept and that dislike the creation of a movement like that, because to be honest, here this thing became something that is much more political than it should have been.

On the last bit of your quote I couldn't agree more, discrimination exists and it doesn't means that it doesn't simply because one hadn't suffered it. I use me as an example, a transgender male (ftm). When I came out my dad was very supportive, my mother in other hands condemns me to hell on a daily basis and once she did come to me with intents of physical harm. Lucky for me, I'm almost twice her size so I could easily stop her and the alike. Also, I live in a country that in a month had over 20 transgender and drag queens murdered, so I am closeted when it comes to social relationships because I am scared of becoming part of this statistics.


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## Amiir (Aug 20, 2017)

Liyah said:


> About the last part... "I know this because I'm gay and no one ever wanted to abuse me for it", well I ate today so there's no hunger in the world. Also today it's cold outside so climate change is a lie. I'll repeat that on my city, Madrid, Spain, first world country, +300 people were killed just because of LGBTphobia in one year. A man and a woman almost killed their "son" a few months ago, "he" was 8 years old, and told them "he" didn't wanted to be a boy, but a girl. One of my best friends is punched constantly by his father, who wants to take him to a psichologist because of his "mental illness" (my friend is gay).
> 
> But hey lucky you, you've never suffered that kind of discrimination so it doesn't exist, right?



I never claimed there to be no discrimination. Sit down.


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## lelapinmort (Aug 20, 2017)

Too tired to tag anyone. Look, you can talk about how many more cis people die a year than transgender people all you want, but here's the simple fact: Cis people don't have to fear being murdered FOR being cis. Sure, you still have to worry about being randomly murdered, but for transgender people, it's usually that, PLUS the fact that we are targeted FOR being trans. I'm sorry for being a dick before. It just really sickens me that anyone would be so bitter and hateful. It really does. If you don't care, there's literally no reason for you to shove your two cents in people's faces when it's hateful. Greenzone could have shared their opinion in a respectful way at the very least, or else I wouldn't have come for them. I get so tired of seeing people like them thinking that they just have to say what they should know is going to either hurt or anger people. I've said my piece, and I'm gonna check out of here now. If you understand the truth of matters and care, good for you. If you don't understand, or just don't care, then whatever, that's your fault, not ours.


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## Saiko (Aug 20, 2017)

GreenZone said:


> ive explained this on another thread but i'll be more simplified with it i sound aggressive but i'm not i have a short fuse with certain types of people particularly really sheltered "me me me me everything that happens around me is the world the rest of the world doesn't exist" kinda thing but i can't help it this is something that happens to Infantry we sound angry we have short fuses there's an actual name for it but i forget what it is now its a minor psychological thing i can't explain it there's actually courses some people need to do before leaving the Military to learn to be a normal person


You go past having a short fuse for drama queens and use that as an excuse for dismissing real problems.


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## Pipistrele (Aug 20, 2017)

lelapinmort said:


> Sure, you still have to worry about being randomly murdered, but for transgender people, it's usually that, PLUS the fact that we are targeted FOR being trans. I'm sorry for being a dick before. It just really sickens me that anyone would be so bitter and hateful. It really does. If you don't care, there's literally no reason for you to shove your two cents in people's faces when it's hateful. Greenzone could have shared their opinion in a respectful way at the very least, or else I wouldn't have come for them. I get so tired of seeing people like them thinking that they just have to say what they should know is going to either hurt or anger people. I've said my piece, and I'm gonna check out of here now.


Welp, it's a relatively peaceful and reasonable way to close the toxic topic...



> If you understand the truth of matters and care, good for you. If you don't understand, or just don't care, then whatever, that's your fault, not ours.


...at least until you used the "Y'know, actually, it's all absolutely your fault" card, which makes it a lot more disappointing.


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## Ketren (Aug 20, 2017)

I'm a straight male. Would like it fine if the rainbow was seen for what it is- a phenomena that happens after a rain- but I'm not marching in the streets chanting, "Reclaim the rainbow!" or anything. Indeed, nature itself is indifferent to such gestures.


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## Storok (Aug 20, 2017)

Since a young age I didnt feel like male or female... More I felt like a Turbocharger, this may sound ridiculous but I always feel good when there are other Turbos around being alone somewhere without another turbo makes me kinda sad. Right now I am in a relationship with another turbo twin turboing a sick 2jz


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

I'd like to ask something. Namely, why do those who believe in ending discrimination against a certain group still want to collect statistics on that group? X number of gays were killed this year- but were they killed _because they were gay_? Or do statistics simply divide people into camps instead of rallying them? What if news reports simply stated, "Two _human beings _were killed today" rather than "Two _homosexuals _were killed"?


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Statistics are important; It's information. You can choose to broaden the sample of information to include whatever you choose to be grouped together, but if it wasn't taken as it's most basic form in the first place there would be a LOT more room for misinterpretation. (Even though people tend to look at those statistics any which way that floats their current boat if they feel they can spin in that way.)

Either way I get your point. It was actually a point me and Saiko were _sort of_ touching on, but with a little more focus on comparing the merits of people instead of their physical attributes, since people can't help what they physically are. (As documented be census style information gathering. Not talking about a 90 pound weakling becoming a bodybuilder or anything.) They can only work on improving their mental outlook; their merits.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

Thanks, Dongding. I'm interested in knowing _why _people would want to change their sex which, as you say, can't be helped. Is it because the vast majority don't believe that God made them what they are, knowing what he was doing and loving them unconditionally? (That's really a different subject; we can start a thread or PM conversation if you like.)


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## Saiko (Aug 21, 2017)

Ketren said:


> I'd like to ask something. Namely, why do those who believe in ending discrimination against a certain group still want to collect statistics on that group? X number of gays were killed this year- but were they killed _because they were gay_? Or do statistics simply divide people into camps instead of rallying them? What if news reports simply stated, "Two _human beings _were killed today" rather than "Two _homosexuals _were killed"?


It's hard to justify a change in policy or culture if you don't have data to back up your claims. Without that data, all you have is anecdotal evidence; and you're arguably no better than some fundamentalist that says "because the Bible says so." That data can also reveal new problems and/or provide valuable insight into the potential of various solutions. And after you've implemented a solution, that data can tell you how effective it has been.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Sort of a weird spot to be sticking god into lol.

People have feelings. What one person wants can be completely opposite of what another person sees as ideal. I'm not going to pretend to be smart because I'm a split hair away from talking out of my ass here, but neurological biochemistry and genetics determines how your brain functions and decides what mental quirks you have and your hormone balance etc.

The thing that drives sexual desires and feelings/traits that generically belong to certain sexes isn't a choice. They have no choice but to feel that way, I believe is the most accurate answer.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

But then there are certain traits (such as girls liking the color pink, which not all of them do) which are traditional rather than biological. (At some point in my schooling I recall reading a story about old Japan where its main character exclaims, "Pink? That's a boy's color!") Personally I prefer it in its natural shades even though I'm male. I _do not _like Pepto-Bismol or Barbie-car pink.

So out of curiosity, why would genetics and neurological biochemistry lead certain people to be unhappy with their gender? If, as Christianity claims, God made all things good- very good when it comes to humanity- why would there then be humans who are discontented with "the skin they're in"? Could it be that _Satan _influences their minds to foment such unhappiness? If so, why?


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Oh no. We aren't doing this lol.

My point is nothing leads them to want to, they simply feel they want to and can't help it. The way they feel inside doesn't match the outside and people push those sex specific culturally ingrained expectations unfairly upon them. Other people shouldn't define you. If you feel you should be a certain way, it's your right to strive for happiness as long as it doesn't hinder other people's.

Edit: I didn't answer your question. Why do genetics and neurological bioscience make them feel that way? That's because it's how your body interacts with the physical matter you choose to put inside of yourself when you eat or breathe or take drugs etc. You're a product of your environment. That includes the genetics you're in possesion of due to your parents copulating. Your brain and the genetics that determine how your body works determines how you feel as a side effect of being a sentient person. You wouldn't exist without them.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

I asked specifically why those things make people _unhappy_. I'll add another question: Why do they not strive to be happy as they are biologically instead of trying to alter themselves? i.e. do you believe there's more to happiness than biology?


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

What if you were missing an arm from birth? Wouldn't you want 2 like everyone else? Do you truly think you wouldn't be jealous? Wouldn't that make you unhappy?

Obviously this is a poor metaphore but I still feel like it does the job. You want what you want, and if what you have isn't what you feel like you deserve in life, it will make you unhappy.

No one is _that_ mature that they can simply ignore a difference in themselves that others will almost by nature, treat you differently for whether due to cultural reasons or others' poor personal experiences which painted an inaccurate portrait of the truth, etc.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

And yet- have you heard of Nick Vujicic, who was born without limbs altogether? To my knowledge he's not jealous of those who have limbs. Nor is Bethany Hamilton jealous of those with two arms. Why? Because they're Christians; they believe there's something beyond biological, temporary life.

As for "what we feel we deserve in life"- that's today's society speaking. Heck, it's Victorian society too, and any other culture with the idea that certain people are "born better" than others. Those who think whoever is born to a lower station cannot and must not rise to a higher one.

We don't always get what we deserve in life.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Those two are either lying about not being jealous  (if they ever said it doesn't bother them being disabled) or have Bhudda-level tranquility which you can't reasonably expect anyone to have. Don't point to exceptions like they're normal trends to be refered to please; It's delusional.

I never said anyone had a sense of entitlement. I was saying sometimes life isn't fair, and to take someone's misfortune and tell them they should be fine with it is ignorant.

And before you say "It isn't misfortune, it's god's plan." Or something equally detracting from this conversation; don't. It's not a gift from god. They can't help disliking feeling one way and appearing the other way to presumptuous people and that's because life isn't fair and it's okay for them to feel that way.

Sorry if you had something more intelligent in mind to say before the paragraph before this sentence; I could have jumped the gun just now.


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## Belatucadros (Aug 21, 2017)

Here's a Kinsey scale quiz I found. I fall right in the middle, half and half. So I'm pretty much bisexual.

Try it yourself: www.buzzfeed.com: Where Do You Fall On The Kinsey Scale?


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

I was saying that faith makes it possible to rise above feelings of jealousy, inadequacy, etc. That it's possible to be content in one's own body, which I believe was assigned by God and not random genetics- that, indeed, genetics aren't as random as people think.


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## JamesOtters (Aug 21, 2017)

Belatucadros said:


> Here's a Kinsey scale quiz I found. I fall right in the middle, half and half. So I'm pretty much bisexual.
> 
> Try it yourself: www.buzzfeed.com: Where Do You Fall On The Kinsey Scale?



Yeah, I took it a while back, before the drama in this thread started. I also got the middle.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

That's fine. It's true that it can. (Not about genetics. Without evidence you're talking out of your ass.) But if you think that those 2 impaired folk would refuse to be normal if given a chance well...

Also I just noticed in your post you said:


Ketren said:


> certain people are "born better" than others.


I don't know if you realize it but you should probably italicize that instead. It makes it seem like you're putting words in my mouth.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

^You mean I should put _born better_ in italics? Sorry; my intention wasn't putting words in your mouth. Also, I'm sorry you think appeals to God are unintelligent.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

It's okay. I'll forgive you this time.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 21, 2017)

Ketren said:


> I was saying that faith makes it possible to rise above feelings of jealousy, inadequacy, etc. That it's possible to be content in one's own body, which I believe was assigned by God and not random genetics- that, indeed, genetics aren't as random as people think.



I'm not entirely certain on whether or not this is an attempt to subtly troll the other people participating in the conversation, but I'll not step too far into it just yet.  It just feels very weird that religion is being injected into the conversation.

Regardless:

As effective and impressive a job that evolution has done in sculpting the human body and the functions within it, it's far from perfect.  Just like it's left us with a mostly useless and potentially dangerous appendix, it also has left us with a very convoluted and imperfect system or regulatory hormones and genetics.  Those systems are what regulate our base biological impulses, including sexual identity and emotional state.

And no one's has identical matches of these biological systems to anyone else, and as a result across humanity there is every mix imaginable of what people can identify as and be turned on from, before even the influence of how they were raised and what their local culture is like.

It is entirely possible (and proven) that individuals can be born with brain chemistry (and even genes) that lean towards the opposite sex of their physical sexual traits.  It's also possible that people can be born with traits and leanings of both primary sexes.  These things happen.  And often the only way for someone in that state to achieve a stable and steady state of of being is to go through a transitional process, or at least openly express who and what they feel themselves to be.

Encouraging people to ignore or suppress these innate urges can cause a lot of damage and pain down the line, because it's forcing or shaming them to suppress something they were born with.  It can trigger severe depression, among other things.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

Welp, this thread has gotten pretty ugly.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Not really. It was a discussion with the brick wall that is religion. It's tough to provide facts and metaphors when the other person essentially believes in magic. There definitely were more than a few times where I couldn't tell if I was being messed with or not, though.

Also thank you Mewtwo for saying what I wanted to say, but much more definitive and eloquent. I was running out of patience and manners.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 21, 2017)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Welp, this thread has gotten pretty ugly.



It's not too bad, really.  It's just general discussion on a very nuanced topic.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 21, 2017)

Dongding said:


> Not really. It was a discussion with the brick wall that is religion. It's tough to provide facts and metaphors when the other person essentially believes in magic. There definitely were more than a few times where I couldn't tell if I was being messed with or not, though.



Please don't cross into any lines of flinging insults.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Lol I edited my post to add a little thank you. I know where the line is and I think you'll find I generally won't cross it.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

I wasn't trying to troll or mess with people; I was presenting my own perspective and asking questions. And yes, I understand that religion is a touchy subject on forum sites. I'm very glad to be able to discuss such things (religion, politics, sex, etc.) here rather than being told, "These topics always lead to bitter arguments, so just don't discuss 'em".


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 21, 2017)

Ketren said:


> I wasn't trying to troll or mess with people; I was presenting my own perspective and asking questions. And yes, I understand that religion is a touchy subject on forum sites. I'm very glad to be able to discuss such things (religion, politics, sex, etc.) here rather than being told, "These topics always lead to bitter arguments, so just don't discuss 'em".



That's fine.  Just be sure you're keeping your responses on-topic, and do your best to respond to what people say, rather than just repeat the same things over and over, or dismiss things with contradict your stance.  Open discussion is a great way to learn new things, but if it gets shut down by people not actually listening to one-another, then it causes nothing but an argument to devolve.


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## ellaerna (Aug 21, 2017)

And so we went from "why are there so many LGBT furs?" to "here's my gender and sexuality" to "are gays really oppressed?" and finally to "why don't Trans people have enough faith in God to just be happy with their assigned gender?"

Just trying to map our discussion over 8 pages for those who might be feeling a little lost at this point.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> And so we went from "why are there so many LGBT furs?" to "here's my gender and sexuality" to "are gays really oppressed?" and finally to "why don't Trans people have enough faith in God to just be happy with their assigned gender?"
> 
> Just trying to map our discussion over 8 pages for those who might be feeling a little lost at this point.


If we have actually gotten to that point in this discussion, I just want to say that that's deeply offensive, being a person who has gone through the journey of figuring out their gender identity, and as a person who's an agnostic. When I was 12 years old, I used that same bullshit argument to stop myself from exploring my gender identity, which was a major disservice to myself. Unbelievable that that was mentioned.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

I wanted none of it.


Dongding said:


> Oh no. We aren't doing this lol.


Then I grabbed a plate and got myself a HEAPING helping of it like a dumbass.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

Dongding said:


> I wanted none of it.
> 
> Then I grabbed a plate and got myself a HEAPING helping of it like a dumbass.


So, maybe this thread should drop whatever was going on and start fresh?


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## ellaerna (Aug 21, 2017)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> If we have actually gotten to that point in this discussion, I just want to say that that's deeply offensive, being a person who has gone through the journey of figuring out their gender identity, and as a person who's an agnostic. When I was 12 years old, I used that same bullshit argument to stop myself from exploring my gender identity, which was a major disservice to myself. Unbelievable that that was mentioned.


If you like that, then you'll just love the post where they hypothesize that gender dysphoria is the work of Satan. Bottom of page 7 if you're interested. 

But I continue to digress. Which seems to be quite the problem in any thread asking anything about gender or sexuality. To get back on topic, my biggest answer as to why the Fandom has a higher rate of LGBT membership than the population as a whole is just because the Fandom is not a very good sample of the population. It's small, biased by self selection, and will not accurately reflect national or global trends. 

I know that doesn't really answer the question, but I hope it does sort of explain why we shouldn't be shocked that our demographics don't jive with larger samples.


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## Tezzy Fur (Aug 21, 2017)

OK, so I'm a gay and a bit unsure about my gender, don't feel male all the time, trying to work it out.


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## Danskebarn (Aug 21, 2017)

I'm definitely male

BUUUUT I think I'm defenetly bi


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## Saiko (Aug 21, 2017)

Ketren said:


> I asked specifically why those things make people _unhappy_. I'll add another question: Why do they not strive to be happy as they are biologically instead of trying to alter themselves? i.e. do you believe there's more to happiness than biology?


I would counter with the question, "Why do so many religious people use faith to make struggles unnecessarily difficult?" I've noticed that a great deal of them run into some personal "demon" if you will, but they spend their whole lives battling it because they turn the issue into an unfair and inaccurate dichotomy. For example, you present the transsexuality issue as "just be happy as god made you" versus "sinfully alter your body." This trivializes the option of therapy as being necessarily easy and effective (pastor one-on-one =/= therapy btw), and if that isn't the case this blames the patient for being weak in some way. It also ignores the variety of medical solutions which range from hormones to surgery, some of which have been incredibly effective for many patients.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

@ellaerna

I think maybe the sheer volume of curious provocative art combined with the snowball effect of being exposed to people of all scopes and feeling support and acceptance instead of adversity when the subject is brought up could have something to do with it.

Though I can't talk for LGBT people, in my own experience as a straight white male viewing material on the site, I've gone from only looking at straight stuff to looking at practically everything aside from fetishes I don't like. The crazy thing is I'm still straight as an arrow. If I ever saw something in reality even 10 percent as horrific as some of the things I choose to look at on FA, I would be traumatized. Quite frankly if I leave a comment it's always a compliment about the art quality or a kindly worded and well recieved critique to be considerate and supportive. I still appreciate the art aspect of people creating submissions, even if they're expressing themselves through smut.

My point being that when I started I would never have thought to look at even half the stuff I think is great now, and all it took was being left to my own devices and not being shunned for being curious... Aaaaand I'm a super perv... but I never used to be like that. Maybe having the opportunity to explore yourself in a supportive like-minded atmosphere can foster that sort of thing if there was any of it inside of you to begin with, including sexual orientation.

Edited for clarity


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

@Saiko it's very difficult to talk about such things with people who don't believe in the supernatural, much less in God. I'm Replynot sure, right now, if it's even possible when my every point will be dismissed.

Some people don't like their "assigned" gender because of biological factors- fair enough. But is therapy or surgery the _only way _of addressing what you call "gender dysphoria"? Also, is the solution _always _to have the person satisfied with their new gender, or do you think staying with their assigned gender is an option?


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## Saiko (Aug 21, 2017)

Ketren said:


> Some people don't like their "assigned" gender because of biological factors- fair enough. But is therapy or surgery the _only way _of addressing what you call "gender dysphoria"?


Those two and hormone treatments are the only medically accepted ones I'm aware of. Someone more knowledgeable is welcome to correct me of course. If you're suggesting that simply studying the Bible and talking to pastors with no psychiatric training is a reasonable option, then I would point out that you're suggesting precisely the trap I was referring to. I'm sure you would agree that it's dangerous to refuse medicine for strep throat and rely solely on faith to heal your body. I'm telling you that the same is true when you need to heal your mind, and the best way to do that is not always the hardest or most minimalist.


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## ellaerna (Aug 21, 2017)

Dongding said:


> @ellaerna
> 
> I think maybe the sheer volume of curious provocative art combined with the snowball effect of being exposed to people of all scopes and feeling support and acceptance instead of adversity when the subject is brought up could have something to do with it.
> 
> ...


I think that makes a lot of sense and kind of works hand in hand with the selection bias I mentioned. 

Maybe when things were just starting out, no one knew coming in that there'd be so much porn, but now, anyone coming into the Fandom should be prepared to see many things that might not be heterosexual intercourse in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation. It's a sort of barrier to entry in which, even if you're not into it, you have to at least be tolerant of it since there's no getting around it. 

So we by necessity created a community of people that are at least moderately open minded, thus becoming an accepting community for people of all genders and sexuality. So more join, and the cycle repeats itself. We can't say how it stated, since I doubt any of us are that old, but it's a theory. 

I also feel like it's similar to the large cooccurance of LGBT and kink. There are lots of LGBT people in the kink community, not necessarily because lgbt people are inherently promiscuous or devious, but because when you're already accepting of people who like to choke each other out during sex, you're likely to also be accepting of people who are gay  or Trans. Likewise with furs, you're already accepting that people are running around as talking animals, you might as well accept that they might be queer or gender non conforming. Both end up being welcoming communities since everyone has already cleared a much higher hurdle for judgment if that makes sense


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

Ketren said:


> @Saiko it's very difficult to talk about such things with people who don't believe in the supernatural, much less in God. I'm Replynot sure, right now, if it's even possible when my every point will be dismissed.
> 
> Some people don't like their "assigned" gender because of biological factors- fair enough. But is therapy or surgery the _only way _of addressing what you call "gender dysphoria"?


It's looking like you're taking issue with atheists/agnostics. What's wrong with being an atheist or an agnostic? And, do you even understand what Gender Dysphoria is? Gender Dysphoria is when you feel so disgusted by the gender you were physically born with that you literally feel like you want to tear your own skin off most of the time.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

I think the problem is compatability issues with logic and reason when being challenged by religion, or vice versa. The playing field isn't particularly even when one party presents facts that need to be disproved, and the other side presents faith which by it's very definition is believing in something you connot possibly prove or know so it cannot be argued with because there's no physical way to tell if supernatural forces exist in the first place.

I don't know why god would make someone gay, then have their soul or whatever tortured for an infinite amount of time. Or starving children that die in countries where they couldn't possibly have had any access to Christian religion, etc...


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

Dongding said:


> I think the problem is compatability issues with logic and reason when being challanged by religion, or vice versa. The playing field isn't particularly even when one party presents facts that need to be disproved, and the other side presents faith which by it's very definition is believing in something you connot possibly prove or know so it cannot be argued with because there's no physical way to tell if supernatural forces exist in the first place.
> 
> I don't know why god would make someone gay, then have their soul or whatever tortured for an infinite amount of time. Or starving children that die in countries where they couldn't possibly have had any access to Christian religion, etc...


I mean no offense whatsoever by asking this, and I'm not asking this out of anger or anything. But, do you see being gay as a bad thing?


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

I don't know how it's possible you could even think that after I just flung feces for 2 topic pages defending TG people's right to want to live their life on their own terms.

I was pointing out that Christianity has evolved over time to be more accepting of things like gays and stuff to remain relevant in today's progressive society. If you go right to the good book then not a lot of people would make it into heaven at all, and most people born on Earth almost never had a chance to begin with due to cultural differences and apparently biological differences. Neither can be helped. Seems unfair to me. Sort of off-topic though too.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

Dongding said:


> I don't know how it's possible you could even think that after I just flung feces for 2 topic pages defending TG people's right to want to live their life on their own terms.
> 
> I was pointing out that Christianity has evolved over time to be more accepting of things like gays and stuff to remain relevant in today's progressive society. If you go right to the good book then not a lot of people would make it into heaven at all, and most people born on Earth almost never had a chance to begin with due to cultural differences and apparently biological differences. Neither can be helped. Seems unfair to me. Sort of off-topic though too.


Sorry... I sort of left the thread after my initial post here, and didn't return until Mewtwo showed up to calm the tensions earlier today.


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## Dongding (Aug 21, 2017)

Yeh no worries. I'm more messed up than most people. I make it a point to put myself in other people's shoes and genuinely consider their point of view. I find it helps with the reasoning process because it gives you relevant insight and if you have a differing opinion, you'll know precisely where it differs and why.


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## Pipistrele (Aug 21, 2017)

Dongding said:


> I was pointing out that Christianity has evolved over time to be more accepting of things like gays and stuff to remain relevant in today's progressive society.


On a sidenote, the whole concept of Christianity evolving over time seems weird to me, mainly because it implies both minor and major changes within the Bible (which is rather strict on what's good and what's bad), and if you can easily change the Bible, there's no point in using it as historically accurate go-to reference to begin with.


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## Ketren (Aug 21, 2017)

Yes... unfortunately, faith IS based on things that can't be scientifically or physically proved. Which means you can't conduct a "faith experiment" to see if the claims are real. As I'm only causing disruption, I guess I'll butt out.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 21, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> On a sidenote, the whole concept of Christianity evolving over time seems weird to me, mainly because it implies both minor and major changes within the Bible (which is rather strict on what's good and what's bad), and if you can easily change the Bible, there's no point in using it as historically accurate go-to reference to begin with.



Please make sure the discussion remains on topic.  If you want to discuss Christianity's evolution and change over time, please create a thread for it.  That's not this threads topic.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 21, 2017)

I'll just restate that I'm gender-neutral and bisexual, just to try to get things back on track again.


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## ZombieStrike (Aug 21, 2017)

I'm biologically female, feel nonbinary majority of the time. I'm pansexual. Had a phase in which I was asexual for a long time, then a lesbian even longer. Now I understand I truly don't care how the person identifies. I am now also happily engaged to a male(who is also a furry!)


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## Liam The Red (Aug 21, 2017)

Hmmm . . .Sexual and emotional attraction can be difficult to explain. The outward manifestation they portray and the role they choose to play matter little to me. A person is a person. Emotionally, what can attract me to someone is more about _who _they are, rather than _what _they are. Sexually I will admit that, like most people, I am attracted to certain physical traits _at first_. These are various and of a multitude and I will not go into that here.  Suffice it to say a cute butt will catch my eye, but it takes more depth of character to keep me looking your way. I try not to handicap myself with labels, so use whichever are most convenient to you. 

and, @FluffyShutterbug , my friend; "Non carborundum illegitimi"


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## Deleted member 111470 (Aug 22, 2017)

I'm bi, but lately I've been feeling out of whack and have no interest in a relationship, so leaning heavily towards asexual.


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## Mischievous (Aug 26, 2017)

hi i'm female and pansexual the majority of the people i know in the fandom are lgbt. feels pretty reassuring to have such a welcoming community


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## Jayy-Dog (Aug 26, 2017)

I'm female and lesbian xD I can understand your curiosity though!


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## Coryn Asur (Aug 27, 2017)

I feel attraction towards women but at the same time I have no need for intercourse as I can go very well without.


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## JamesOtters (Aug 27, 2017)

I'm also going to restate that I'm Pan, but I just dont really care about labels anymore. I feel whatever I feel now... (Also because I'm not sure anyone would even date me. I'm lazy, and just awkward. Good luck if someone does legitimately want to date me...)

But, I am male, and I will state that, that is the one label I will adhere to. Biologically and Physiologically .


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## WolfoxeCrevan (Aug 27, 2017)

I don't really identify with either gender. (Though I am male) I like to do girly things and wear girly clothes but I also like to do typical guy stuff. And I am a part of LGBT. And I'm still alone >~<


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## SlashVorezSilverfang (Aug 27, 2017)

I am an MtF transgender awaiting a job to pay for my surgery...buuut I kinda identify more as my actual fursona.


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## JamesOtters (Aug 27, 2017)

SlashVorezSilverfang said:


> I am an MtF transgender awaiting a job to pay for my surgery...buuut I kinda identify more as my actual fursona.


Yeah, I feel like that too, especially when my fursona is Me but if I was my favorite animal. (Otters!  )


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## ellaerna (Aug 27, 2017)

SlashVorezSilverfang said:


> I am an MtF transgender awaiting a job to pay for my surgery...buuut I kinda identify more as my actual fursona.


Good luck with the job and the surgery. As I understand it, the waiting list for it can be insanely long.


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## Neuma (Aug 29, 2017)

I..Don't quite know what I am. Sometimes I feel like a girl, Sometimes a male and then most of the time I don't feel like really anything at all. Born female and bisexual.


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## Pinky (Aug 29, 2017)

I know I'm bi. Sometimes I wish I was a girl but I guess I can't really change that, so I just pretend. This is the internet after all


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## jtrekkie (Aug 30, 2017)

Ketren said:


> So out of curiosity, why would genetics and neurological biochemistry lead certain people to be unhappy with their gender? If, as Christianity claims, God made all things good- very good when it comes to humanity- why would there then be humans who are discontented with "the skin they're in"? Could it be that _Satan _influences their minds to foment such unhappiness? If so, why?



I can see that a couple of people took some deep issue with that line of discussion, that has always been the case here. Tots for civility. I do have a comment for you anyway.

We say that all things were made good, but not all things are necessarily good now. We are resigned to have a great number of disorders; usually they aren't given moral consideration since they are only part of our mortality. And even though perfect health is not enough for happiness, even a minor disorder is enough to precipitate unhappiness in the average person.

Sexual differentiation in humans is particularly complex and takes a long time to complete, there is a lot that can go wrong at the various stages, and the results are not always immediately visible (though some research has correlated malformed brain structures to transsexuality. There is a known mechanism for that in animals but it would be unethical to verify the mechanism on humans.) There is however no reason to treat it differently than you would any other disorder; suffering caused by a disparency between the brain and the rest of the body is just as real. The proper course of action would be to treat the disorder by the most effective methods known. That may not produce happiness, but it does remove pain. I for one have come to the conclusion that bodily things only have secondary moral significance.


OT: Bisexual male here. My _boyfriend_ says I'm probably closer to pan, though. I've noticed that the furry community treats lgbt things not just more openly but differently than most others, but I don't have that big of an online presence.


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## EmpressCiela (Aug 30, 2017)

I'm Pan. I really want to be a girl, though, but I'm too afraid to transition


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## lyar (Aug 30, 2017)

Oh these type of threads never get old. But there's one thing I never seem to understand and its when people 'feel' like the opposite gender or sex. How do you feel like a female if you have, for your entire existence, been male? How could you even identify what it is to be a female? How do you know there's any real difference other than physiology? Don't me wrong though I do not dislike transgendered or non-binary people, I just wish to understand them.  

To answer the prompt, I am male and bisexual.


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## quoting_mungo (Aug 30, 2017)

lyar said:


> But there's one thing I never seem to understand and its when people 'feel' like the opposite gender or sex. How do you feel like a female if you have, for your entire existence, been male? How could you even identify what it is to be a female? How do you know there's any real difference other than physiology? Don't me wrong though I do not dislike transgendered or non-binary people, I just wish to understand them.


If you want to be technical, there's no way to confirm that even two cis males experience "feeling male" the same way.

I can't speak for trans people, but for me (genderqueer/"would probably be trans if I gave enough fucks about gender") it's a combination of social and nebulous internal factors. In a group, I am by far most comfortable as "one of the guys". I have a tendency to take generalizations made about men personally; in some cases more so than generalizations about women. And, the most nebulous of them all, "female" doesn't quite seem to "fit", sort of like trying on clothes and feeling that they don't quite seem to sit right while not being able to pinpoint whether the problem is with the waist or the inseam or maybe it's the hem that just doesn't work for you? 

For simplicity and due to lack of fucks given (I'm still "me" long before I am my gender), I'll still call myself nominally female. But it's a drastic simplification of a complex matter.


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## lyar (Aug 30, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> If you want to be technical, there's no way to confirm that even two cis males experience "feeling male" the same way.
> 
> I can't speak for trans people, but for me (genderqueer/"would probably be trans if I gave enough fucks about gender")* it's a combination of social and nebulous internal factors. In a group, I am by far most comfortable as "one of the guys".* I have a tendency to take generalizations made about men personally; in some cases more so than generalizations about women. And, the most nebulous of them all, "female" doesn't quite seem to "fit", sort of like trying on clothes and feeling that they don't quite seem to sit right while not being able to pinpoint whether the problem is with the waist or the inseam or maybe it's the hem that just doesn't work for you?
> 
> For simplicity and due to lack of fucks given (I'm still "me" long before I am my gender), I'll still call myself nominally female. But it's a drastic simplification of a complex matter.


Oh I didn't think of it that way, that makes sense. Thank you for your insight. I can't help but wish less people cared about gender and be themselves without a label. Whatever, people will be people.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Aug 30, 2017)

lyar said:


> Oh I didn't think of it that way, that makes sense. Thank you for your insight. I can't help but wish less people cared about gender and be themselves without a label. Whatever, people will be people.


That's part of the reason why I identify as gender-neutral. I find it a little asinine how us humans pigeonhole ourselves based on our genitalia.


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## BakuryuuTyranno (Aug 30, 2017)

i am a gendersexual, and sexuality is my gender


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## lyar (Aug 30, 2017)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> That's part of the reason why I identify as gender-neutral. I find it a little asinine how us humans pigeonhole ourselves based on our genitalia.


Yeah I don't think genitalia is irrelevant, but the cultural/social expectations of gender need to lose some relevance because no one should be put in a box because of their sex which they have no control over.


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## impendingsenseofdoom (Aug 31, 2017)

lyar said:
			
		

> Oh these type of threads never get old. But there's one thing I never seem to understand and its when people 'feel' like the opposite gender or sex. How do you feel like a female if you have, for your entire existence, been male? How could you even identify what it is to be a female? How do you know there's any real difference other than physiology? Don't me wrong though I do not dislike transgendered or non-binary people, I just wish to understand them.
> 
> To answer the prompt, I am male and bisexual.



I consider myself bi and trans (though I've only come out to a couple of people).

To answer your question, I can only speak from personal experience. I was very much a tomboy when I was little but I really tried to act feminine when I was a teen. I did everything I  could to act like a girl and after a while it kind of hit me; I was _acting_ like a girl. I felt like it was a lot of effort, almost like a job. I never felt comfortable with my body and tried binding with anything that would work. I'd wear men's clothes in private like in my room or when I was home alone. One thing that's almost always a tell-tale sign that you're experiencing dysphoria is that you have this desire to change your body, even when you're completely alone (i.e. wearing a binder to sleep so I wouldn't wake up and see my body without one).

The thing that pushed me from thinking I was just a tomboy to considering I might be trans was when I started seeing my ex. We went from a platonic relationship to basically being in a gay relationship and yet, it was the most fulfilling relationship I had ever been in. Everything I had felt was missing in my other relationships kinda made sense.

I'm sorry that last paragraph is a little vague, for me it's hard to discuss this topic without it being tmi :U


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## lyar (Aug 31, 2017)

impendingsenseofdoom said:


> I consider myself bi and trans (though I've only come out to a couple of people).
> 
> To answer your question, I can only speak from personal experience. I was very much a tomboy when I was little but I really tried to act feminine when I was a teen. I did everything I  could to act like a girl and after a while it kind of hit me; I was _acting_ like a girl. I felt like it was a lot of effort, almost like a job. I never felt comfortable with my body and tried binding with anything that would work. I'd wear men's clothes in private like in my room or when I was home alone. One thing that's almost always a tell-tale sign that you're experiencing dysphoria is that you have this desire to change your body, even when you're completely alone (i.e. wearing a binder to sleep so I wouldn't wake up and see my body without one).
> 
> ...


That sounds like a very scary experience but I can't say that helped me understand where you're coming from. The idea of changing my body is terrifying to me. And maybe its what some people _feel_ they need but I don't think people_ need _to physically change to be who they want.

But if people are happy its fine, no one's place to judge what people do to their own bodies. Thank you for sharing your experience @impendingsenseofdoom


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## HibiscusTea (Aug 31, 2017)

Just your basic female who is Bi and ready to die lmao


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## Gaitsu (Aug 31, 2017)

Pansexual Male, with a preference for feminine looks.


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## Filter (Aug 31, 2017)

I'm a straight cisgender male, but I'm more of a nerd than some kind of macho type.

For what it's worth, I don't categorize every activity or nuance as masculine or feminine. There's lots of overlap between the sexes. At the end of the day, we're all human. I don't think of tomboys as any less female, for instance, or guys who aren't into sports as any less male... unless they're actively changing their sex or something (no judgment here). If I'm not romantically attracted to someone, their gender isn't terribly important to me. I care more about their personality.


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## Gaitsu (Aug 31, 2017)

Filter said:


> I'm a straight cisgender male, but I'm more of a nerd than some kind of macho type.
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't categorize every activity or nuance as masculine or feminine. There's lots of overlap between the sexes. At the end of the day, we're all human. I don't think of tomboys as any less female, for instance, or guys who aren't into sports as any less male... unless they're actively changing their sex or something (no judgment here). If I'm not romantically attracted to someone, their gender isn't terribly important to me. I care more about their personality.


A real hero here. Just because you're straight cis doesn't make you an evil spawn of Satan. Give this man a medal!


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## Akartoshi (Sep 1, 2017)

Filter said:


> I'm a straight cisgender male








That being said, I agree with what you are saying. To me, I don't give a fuck if someone act's "girlish" or "tomboyish." However, these claims did not sprout from nothing and I do see the logic behind them. Men are normally stronger physically then women, and male and female's brains are actually different. Here is a quoting from an article.
"Females often have a larger hippocampus, our human memory center. Females also often have a higher density of neural connections into the hippocampus. As a result, girls and women tend to input or absorb more sensorial and emotive information than males do."
Because of these differences, it is normal for women to be more animated, and that is why some consider it odd and classify one as "girlish" or whatnot, and therefore expect men and women to act in one way.
www.psychologytoday.com: Brain Differences Between Genders Here is the article I quoted from.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Sep 1, 2017)

Bisexual male


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## ellaerna (Sep 1, 2017)

Akartoshi said:


> "Females often have a larger hippocampus, our human memory center. Females also often have a higher density of neural connections into the hippocampus. As a result, girls and women tend to input or absorb more sensorial and emotive information than males do."
> Because of these differences, it is normal for women to be more animated, and that is why some consider it odd and classify one as "girlish" or whatnot, and therefore expect men and women to act in one way.
> www.psychologytoday.com: Brain Differences Between Genders Here is the article I quoted from.


I'm always skeptical when people bring up the male/female brain argument.  That article is from 2014, so it's not exactly recent. In fact a quick Google search brought up this article from 2017 which directly contradicts yours, saying that in fact men have the thicker hippocampus. Also, psychology today isn't a super reputable source. 

Basically brain science isn't far enough along to solidly make that call yet and there's been too much competing data on the subject. There's just not enough consistency for me to feel OK with anyone using it to talk about gender differences. 

And while I personally don't care much one way or the other if there are gendered brain differences, we should still be careful and think about how this line of research affects the conversation. If we do find that there is a male brain and a female brain, what would that mean for Trans people? Would we start poking around into their brains, demanding neurological evidence to validate their identities?


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## Multoran (Sep 1, 2017)

I am a *herpus derpus hermaphrodorus* on Tuesdays and Thursdays, a *demi-queer pandulus* on Mondays and Fridays, an *elongus schlongus* on Saturdays and Sundays, and on Wednesdays *I spin a wheel* >>>Whatever it lands on is my gender for the day.

Obviously, my sexuality fluctuates with my gender, but that's probably too much information for your cis-hetero normative brains to handle


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## Nashida (Sep 1, 2017)

Straight cisgender female, and add me to those who pay more attention to personality than gender. If I don't you, it's because you're an ass, not because you identify with a certain gender or what have you.


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## Akartoshi (Sep 1, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> I'm always skeptical when people bring up the male/female brain argument.  That article is from 2014, so it's not exactly recent. In fact a quick Google search brought up this article from 2017 which directly contradicts yours, saying that in fact men have the thicker hippocampus. Also, psychology today isn't a super reputable source.
> 
> Basically brain science isn't far enough along to solidly make that call yet and there's been too much competing data on the subject. There's just not enough consistency for me to feel OK with anyone using it to talk about gender differences.
> 
> And while I personally don't care much one way or the other if there are gendered brain differences, we should still be careful and think about how this line of research affects the conversation. If we do find that there is a male brain and a female brain, what would that mean for Trans people? Would we start poking around into their brains, demanding neurological evidence to validate their identities?


Alright, so throw the whole brain difference out the door. My point is that there are still differences between sexes. (be it differences in strength, or differences in brain/other organs) which is why people set the expectations that they do on the genders.


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## ellaerna (Sep 1, 2017)

Akartoshi said:


> Alright, so throw the whole brain difference out the door. My point is that there are still differences between sexes. (be it differences in strength, or differences in brain/other organs) which is why people set the expectations that they do on the genders.


Did I upset you? Cause I didn't mean to and your response reads very... terse. 

First, after 4 years of college and 3 years of academic employment, sources and their validity are really salient to me. If you have bad sources or bad info, I'm going to be inclined to point that out. It's not an attack on you, just the info you're trying to use for your argument. 

Second, I agree that, as a whole, there are differences between men and women. I hesitate to say mentally, due to the issues discussed above, but definitely physically, yeah. 

But I also think that there's a large social component at the core, and not necessarily behavior. Prime example would be the color pink. Pink and liking it are heavily associated with girlishness and ultra-femininity. But pink used to be considered a masculine color. Something about how we as are as a society flipped, and the narrative changed, not actual gender predispositions. And I think that for some of our assumptions about girl behavior and guy behavior stem from that, and not true gender differences. If that makes sense. 

I've even wondered sometimes if some of the things I liked and gravitated towards were because I actually liked them or if society had trained me to see them as things that I _should_ like. For example, and relevant to the thread, I'm a bi woman. I'm attracted to both men and women. However, when asked by a friend, I confessed that I never felt _romantic_ towards women. While I could easily crush on boys and imagine lives with them, I have only seen women in more, uh, instantly gratifying senses and I think it would take a lot of time and work for me to actually develop romantic feelings towards another girl. Not impossible, mind you, but more difficult than feeling the same way towards a dude. Currently, I have no idea why that is. I don't know if it's because I'm actually  bisexual but hetero-romantic or if it's because hetero romances were everywhere growing up and I was sort of trained to seek out a het relationship by default. It could just be easier to see myself with a man because, since I was a baby, that's the narrative society, my community, the books I read, movies I watched, even my parents, pushed. 

Sorry that got long. If you couldn't guess, I'm a big fan of nature/nurture discourse and I will talk your ear off if you let me.


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## kuro.glitterz (Sep 1, 2017)

Wow...just read through this thread and it is not the most welcoming thing to read. I'm pretty new to the forums, and thought this was interesting and civil... for about a page. On the original topic, I'm not part of the LGBT. I don't tend to be attracted to anyone very often, when I am they are usually men. Usually I'd just say that I'm straight (as I am cis female). If in company that is willing to consider more than binary choices I'll identify as grey asexual bi-romantic, but recognize that this sort of overly specific label comes off as "special snowflake" to many people. Just thought I toss in an answer to the orginal question. I want nothing to do with the argumentation/ discussion that is the rest of the tread lol


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## Kezi Avdiivka (Sep 1, 2017)

I'm straight and I like to bajoink the womens and such.


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## EvanB1912 (Sep 2, 2017)

Kezi Avdiivka said:


> I'm straight and I like to bajoink the womens and such.


Um... "bajoink"? Hmm...


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## spaceybrains (Sep 2, 2017)

My gender is non-binary and I am pansexual


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## Akartoshi (Sep 2, 2017)

ellaerna said:


> Did I upset you? Cause I didn't mean to and your response reads very... terse.
> 
> First, after 4 years of college and 3 years of academic employment, sources and their validity are really salient to me. If you have bad sources or bad info, I'm going to be inclined to point that out. It's not an attack on you, just the info you're trying to use for your argument.
> 
> ...


Oh, I wasn't offended or upset. Just a blunt guy. There's no reason for me to get upset over logical discussion 

Can I also say that I have noticed in my travels that america has such strong gender segregation. In Kuala Lumpur, it's considered creative. School boys hang out with girls. Everyone doesn't bother each other. In the USA, however, I noticed that this is considered weird and everyone keeps to themselves or is teased for it. I think that this does have to do with culture, as people persieve guys to act one way and girls to act another. It happens that some places / cultures have a stronger view on this and others don't.

Regardless; I think that what you are talking about is homosexuality in culture, which is different from gender. The reason you probably don't see homosexuality around the time you were with is because it is at the time / by most societies, viewed as something unordinary. For this reason, it does not pop up in media, and if you think about it, homosexuals always will make up the minority in every nation, and it makes more sense to cater to the majority, which is what media portrays. (Be it supportive or against LGBT)

This also would explain how gender roles are. Let's say; Most girls like pink dolls. (Just an example.) One or two prefer hot wheels. As a company, which would I market? Obviously to the higher demand. For this reason and targeting is why the whole, "dolls for girls, cars for guys" or other stereotypes come out.


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## ellaerna (Sep 2, 2017)

Akartoshi said:


> Oh, I wasn't offended or upset. Just a blunt guy. There's no reason for me to get upset over logical discussion
> 
> Can I also say that I have noticed in my travels that america has such strong gender segregation. In Kuala Lumpur, it's considered creative. School boys hang out with girls. Everyone doesn't bother each other. In the USA, however, I noticed that this is considered weird and everyone keeps to themselves or is teased for it. I think that this does have to do with culture, as people persieve guys to act one way and girls to act another. It happens that some places / cultures have a stronger view on this and others don't.
> 
> ...


I have a hard time reading tone in text sometimes, so I always like to check. 

I feel like we're both saying the same thing, but just differently enough that we're still debating. It's true that in my examples and the larger issue as a whole, media plays a strong role in normalizing and shaping gender and sexuality roles  and stereotypes. But I would argue that media is part of our culture and society. It reflects how we as a people are and the influences of our time. 

And I wouldn't say that homosexuality didn't get a lot of media coverage just because there are so few gays. For a long time, there was 0 representation, and after that any representation was hurtful, the "unordinariness" of it used as the butt of the joke. Even now it can be hard to find good gay characters. It wasn't just that gays weren't around, but that society still didn't like them. Being a primarily Christian nation, it's been a long road to acceptance and we're still not all the way there. So for this issue I'd say is a little of column a, a little of column b.

As for your advertiser example, that's true, but you have to wonder where those preferences came from. As mentioned before, pink used to be a dude color. Dolls used to be gender neural. Cars are super modern, so what made them manly? Personally, I think it's a self perpetuating cycle. Society and the media comes up with a gender stereotype. Then they push that narrative onto the people. It becomes ingrained so that you see behavior trends starting to pop up. Then the media and advertising execs use that to categorize new things and market them in accordance with the binary they helped create.


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