# Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme



## Zetsub (Nov 30, 2013)

~If this thread is in the wrong place feel free to delete/move it.~


Hey Everyone

I'm making a transformation/gender swap game called "Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme". The game's been available for awhile on Desura, and we just launched on Steam Greenlight: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=197667538

I thought about posting it here before, but we didn't have any furry content. We had mermaids, catgirls and all sorts of transformations like that, but the third character we released added furries to the game, which you can check out here:

http://i.imgur.com/1loWavQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/1u7s9pK.png
http://i.imgur.com/0lT3l22.png

We've also got a free demo out that you can try, but it doesn't contain the furry content. http://www.mediafire.com/download/nbbz2xc7byquq7z/Bri Demo.zip

Once the game is done we're going to release 7 characters for free, and two of those will have furries in them. There's also going to be a third furry character in the game (a bunnygirl who goes full anthro at one point), but she'll be in the paid version of the game.

So yeah, hopefully people here like it. If you think the game is cool, you can vote for us on Steam Greenlight. We'd really appreciate it 

Cheers
Zetsub / Lach


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## Runefox (Nov 30, 2013)

I'll be honest, I saw this on Desura one time a while ago and while I was interested in it (the subject matter is something that I personally love because I'm weird like that), this kind of game (visual novel) relies quite a bit on the visual aspect of things. I don't mean to sound rude, but the quality of the art kind of just isn't there for me. That said, it looks like you've gotten a lot of flak for that already, so I'll just say that I'd like to give it a chance, but the writing would have to be extremely good to make up for the artwork quality. I'll grab the demo for now and have a closer look.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 30, 2013)

I just wish when people design women, they remember that they do contain internal organs, and it's not all stuffed up in the breasts. If a visual novel does have really good writing people might want to just go through it despite it, but the artwork can turn many potential buyers off. 

I can't vote for something like that :/


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> I just wish when people design women, they remember that they do contain internal organs, and it's not all stuffed up in the breasts. If a visual novel does have really good writing people might want to just go through it despite it, but the artwork can turn many potential buyers off.
> 
> I can't vote for something like that :/



This is what happens when female characters are designed by men.


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## Zetsub (Nov 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> I just wish when people design women, they remember that they do contain internal organs, and it's not all stuffed up in the breasts. If a visual novel does have really good writing people might want to just go through it despite it, but the artwork can turn many potential buyers off.
> 
> I can't vote for something like that :/



That's actually mentioned in the writing (I'm the writer, not the artist), one of the characters comments about how ridiculously small their waists are and talks about how it shouldn't make sense because there isn't any spot for their lungs. And once one of the characters gets bigger breasts the other one comments about how her back should have snapped in half.

It's a silly art design, but it's a silly lighthearted game too, and I think it suits the game pretty well.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 30, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> That's actually mentioned in the writing (I'm the writer, not the artist), one of the characters comments about how ridiculously small their waists are and talks about how it shouldn't make sense because there isn't any spot for their lungs. And once one of the characters gets bigger breasts the other one comments about how her back should have snapped in half.
> 
> It's a silly art design, but it's a silly lighthearted game too, and I think it suits the game pretty well.



I guess it's designed to alienate a group of people then. The art is one of the biggest turn offs, especially with the other problems with trying to overdetail everything and style. Good luck I guess.


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## Schwimmwagen (Nov 30, 2013)

Power to ya for getting such a project built up and out of the door, but I personally would have spent a lot of time making the art reach a professional standard before trying to sell it for profit.

Take that as an encouragement - keep working at what you're doing.


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## Toshabi (Nov 30, 2013)

Meh. The subject is bizarre and the artwork is just meh. Suppose it's intended for such a niche audience, though, I feel like this is way too niche.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Nov 30, 2013)

Here is the reality.
Even if you think the artwork is ok in that, it is not, and because of that mediocre art, people will not spend their money on it.
You can argue it is a matter of style, but it is a matter of skill level. You can tell the artist is over his head.
The topic of this game is weird, but a lot of indie games are weird so I can't say much about it.
Writing is meh, and the trailer doesn't really encourage you to buy it.

Point is, fix your visuals and you'll fix a lot of turn-offs.


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## Zetsub (Nov 30, 2013)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> Point is, fix your visuals and you'll fix a lot of turn-offs.



We actually did upgrade the art once, we started work on the game after the Indiegogo but after 3 months we realised the old art wasn't good enough and had to start from scratch. You can see an example of that here: http://dkdevil.deviantart.com/art/IGG-Dev-Update-34-412464939

Theoretically we could do that again, but it would set the project back a year and we're already promising the game to people because of our crowdfunding campaign (which had the original bad art) http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gender-bender-dna-twister-extreme/x/279846 

The art in future games will be better, but at the end of the day we need to deliver a finished product, and I think we're already delivering a better product than what we promised during the Indiegogo.


But yeah, I get where you're coming from.


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## SirRob (Nov 30, 2013)

Sigh... why do people always have to draw large breasts in my hentai video games? Who would want that?

To the people complaining, the art style's totally the standard for something that's highly fetishized. People who have those fetishes will have no problem with it.


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## TrishaCat (Dec 1, 2013)

Well this is....interesting? I'm not really getting a story or anything from your description other than people transforming and changing genders and such, and the character artwork could use a little improvement. (Can't quite figure out in words all that's wrong with it, but I'll say that the characters have breasts that are too large.)
Still, not bad. I'm happy to see something like this getting finished.

I might be interested. Going to try checking out the demo.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> To the people complaining, the art style's totally the standard for something that's highly fetishized. People who have those fetishes will have no problem with it.



What fetish is that?


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Any fetish that's kinda out there. Those things are such niches, people will eat up any passable art. FA shows that firsthand.


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## Vaelarsa (Dec 1, 2013)

The art looks really gross, TBH.

I hate that kind of fetishy, ridiculous look that seems like the epitome of what lonely 12-year-old boys think females are supposed to be.
It's just super, super offputting.
Bodies, and especially boobs, *do. not. work. that. way.*


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Any fetish that's kinda out there. Those things are such niches, people will eat up any passable art. FA shows that firsthand.



That's not standard.

Your answer is a cop out.


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## TrishaCat (Dec 1, 2013)

By the way. What's the difference between the downloadable version on Desura and the demo you gave us a link to?

EDIT: Disregard question, figured it out.



Zetsub said:


> That's actually mentioned in the writing (I'm the writer, not the artist), one of the characters comments about how ridiculously small their waists are and talks about how it shouldn't make sense because there isn't any spot for their lungs. And once one of the characters gets bigger breasts the other one comments about how her back should have snapped in half.
> 
> It's a silly art design, but it's a silly lighthearted game too, and I think it suits the game pretty well.


That makes things a whole lot better for me regarding the huge breast size. It had bugged me, but if they joke about it in game then I'll be all right. And I'm glad its lighthearted. I like lighthearted stuff.
Sorry for not seeing this post earlier by the way.


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

Battlechili1 said:


> By the way. What's the difference between the downloadable version on Desura and the demo you gave us a link to?



The one in the link has two characters, the one on Desura has one. I'm going to update the Desura version soon.


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## TrishaCat (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> The one in the link has two characters, the one on Desura has one. I'm going to update the Desura version soon.


Oh! Thanks for explaining that. Not even after I edited my post above did I realize that.
And thanks for providing us with an updated version!

After trying the demo I'll likely help vote for it on Steam Greenlight.
I think I'll enjoy this.


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## Heliophobic (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh god that deviantart-esque artstyle is frying my retinas


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's not standard.
> 
> Your answer is a cop out.


Okay, well you can go ahead and show me what the standard is for professional Tf/Tg art.

I really don't think anyone complaining would play this game even if they had da Vinci working for the TC.
Alternatively, I think anyone who's into Tf/Tg wouldn't let the art style keep them from playing.


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## TrishaCat (Dec 1, 2013)

The term visual novel doesn't necessarily mean that its going to be ecchi filled, but I just took a look through the folder for the demo and there's nudity in this game.
Couldn't you have told us?

Of course based on the name, what this game is about, and the fact that most visual novels are like that I should've realized, but still.


SirRob said:


> Okay, well you can go ahead and show me what the standard is for professional Tf/Tg art.
> 
> I really don't think anyone complaining would play this game even if they had da Vinci working for the TC.
> Alternatively, I think anyone who's into Tf/Tg wouldn't let the art style keep them from playing.


I complained. But artstyle isn't too important to me, even for stuff like this.
I mean I watched a tv show that looked like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=the...a=X&ei=BVGbUs3YOcfY2QXc-YCgAg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ

Though I wouldn't pay for this game, I'll admit. At least not anywhere near the price being asked.

EDIT: Started trying the demo. Successfully made me chuckle. Also the music is pretty nice. So far so good. Writing needs work though.
"He's doing research on a bunch of diseases or something, but I'm not really sure what he's doing". That would be better if it didn't repeat the word "doing". Perhaps if it said "but I'm not really sure on the details of it"

EDIT2: This way things are written (in terms of constantly bringing focus to breasts and how cute characters are) reminds me of I feel when I'm watching some ecchi anime. And I'm not really fond of those...I'm still laughing while playing though, so who knows? Still don't know if I like it or not, but I'm not so optimistic about this game anymore.

EDIT3: Too ecchi and too fetish-y for me. Though the demo ended on _quite_ the cliffhanger I'll admit.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Okay, well you can go ahead and show me what the standard is for professional Tf/Tg art.
> 
> I really don't think anyone complaining would play this game even if they had da Vinci working for the TC.
> Alternatively, I think anyone who's into Tf/Tg wouldn't let the art style keep them from playing.



Visual novel games main draw is the art. Fetish or not. 

People will not pay just because it caters to their fetish. They can go on FA and get their fetish drawn by other people who don't make serious anatomy errors for free. Even with anatomy errors it's done for free. 

They will pay if it has engaging visuals and writing. Especially if you want this game on Steam. People may do the original support on a kickstarter/indiegogo level. 

I dunno why you'd think that the complaints are about the fetish most are about the art and asking people to pay for that. It's not like I haven't seen visual novel games before.


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## TrishaCat (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Visual novel games main draw is the art.


I'd agree with you for the most part,but...Higurashi (the visual novel) is popular and...


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Battlechili1 said:


> I'd like to agree with you, at least in part, but...Higurashi (the visual novel) is popular and...




It's still drawn better even if it's not as great and has better writing.  I mean they bothered to simplify the shading not draw in every single strand of hair. The style also helps perpetuate the story. It also has a supporting anime series with it, which does have better drawing even if the art style is odd for many people.

They even upgraded the art as it went to different platforms.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Visual novel games main draw is the art. Fetish or not.
> 
> People will not pay just because it caters to their fetish. They can go on FA and get their fetish drawn by other people who don't make serious anatomy errors for free. Even with anatomy errors it's done for free.
> 
> ...


Right. It's just like the people who buy porn for the story. 
People are gonna get this game to fap, not to be blown away by artistic quality or writing. 

I don't know why people aren't complaining about the fetish. It's sort of baffling that people would attack the art style before attacking the fact that it's tftg. Usually fetishes are the target of criticism here. But I think by appealing to a more general audience through improving the art to a degree where -that- is the draw and -not- the fetish, you're changing the game into something completely different. It becomes an attempt to normalize the fetish, rather than pure fetish material.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Right. It's just like the people who buy porn for the story.
> People are gonna get this game to fap, not to be blown away by artistic quality or writing.


The problem with this logic stems from the fact that there is *no porn in this game*.



> I don't know why people aren't complaining about the fetish. It's sort of baffling that people would attack the art style before attacking the fact that it's tftg. Usually fetishes are the target of criticism here. But I think by appealing to a more general audience through improving the art to a degree where -that- is the draw and -not- the fetish, you're changing the game into something completely different. It becomes an attempt to normalize the fetish, rather than pure fetish material.


I really don't see the correlation here between bad art and the fetish audience. People aren't going to buy it for the fetish because there's nothing to fap to but the basic premise. Its primarily aiming to be a visual novel first and fetish material not at all. The artwork is a central point of the game.

As for why not complain about the fetish, I'm not sure why you'd fixate on that in the first place.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Right. It's just like the people who buy porn for the story.
> People are gonna get this game to fap, not to be blown away by artistic quality or writing.
> 
> I don't know why people aren't complaining about the fetish. It's sort of baffling that people would attack the art style before attacking the fact that it's tftg. Usually fetishes are the target of criticism here. But I think by appealing to a more general audience through improving the art to a degree where -that- is the draw and -not- the fetish, you're changing the game into something completely different. It becomes an attempt to normalize the fetish, rather than pure fetish material.



They can get the porn for free drawn by better artists ON FA or sites. Did you bother to read what I said?

Because strangely Rob, while there are people who do that on FAF, not everyone is a fucking prude and the art is the first thing they see. So yes, they're going to attack the art style because that's what's going to draw them into the game unless you got some genius writing or plot that has good buzz.

Steam will also pull erotic games from their Greenlight.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/St...ply-Games-Seduce-Me-Miriam-Bellard,17369.html
_Hmmm. Maybe Valve was on to something when it swung the Greenlight banhammer, especially after watching the gameplay video and reading some of the in-game dialog. *"Steam has never been a leading destination for erotic material," Valve's chief spokesperson Doug Lombardi told Kotaku. "Greenlight doesn't aim to change that." *_


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

Also, OP... You might want to remove "Desura Tier 3 keys.txt" from the demo package.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> The problem with this logic stems from the fact that there is *no porn in this game*.
> 
> 
> I really don't see the correlation here between bad art and the fetish audience. People aren't going to buy it for the fetish because there's nothing to fap to but the basic premise. Its primarily aiming to be a visual novel first and fetish material not at all. The artwork is a central point of the game.
> ...


The fetish serves as a substitution for porn. That's what fetishes are. 

Looking at the OP, it's pretty clear that the TC wants this to be fetish material. TC refers to it as a "transformation/gender swap game", not mentioning visual novel anywhere. TC describes the main draw of the game being transformation material, including "a bunnygirl who goes full anthro at one point". After reading that, how, how can you tell me that I shouldn't be seeing the fetish as central part of the game?



Arshes Nei said:


> They can get the porn for free drawn by better artists ON FA or sites. Did you bother to read what I said?
> 
> Because strangely Rob, while there are people who do that on FAF, not everyone is a fucking prude and the art is the first thing they see. So yes, they're going to attack the art style because that's what's going to draw them into the game unless you got some genius writing or plot that has good buzz.
> 
> ...


I'm saying the people here WON'T be drawn to the game no matter what, and they SHOULDN'T be unless that's their fetish, because they're -not- the audience this game is aiming for.

If people would rather get their tftg for free, then the main flaw is the premise.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> The fetish serves as a substitution for porn. That's what fetishes are.


I'm not so sure about that. I wouldn't fap to that. Take that however you will.



> TC describes the main draw of the game being transformation material, including "a bunnygirl who goes full anthro at one point". After reading that, how, how can you tell me that I shouldn't be seeing the fetish as central part of the game?


They're trying to pitch the game to the furry community here and they want to show that there's content for furries?



> I'm saying the people here WON'T be drawn to the game no matter what, and they SHOULDN'T be unless that's their fetish, because they're -not- the audience this game is aiming for.


Again, I'm not so sure. If this were a well-drawn furry game with gender bending I'm pretty sure there would be more than just the stable of TG enthusiasts going at it.



> If people would rather get their tftg for free, then the main flaw is the premise.


Again, I'm pretty sure they're trying to make it into a visual novel, even if that isn't what they called it in the OP.


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## Heliophobic (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> The fetish serves as a substitution for porn. *That's what fetishes are.*



wut


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

What a stupid argument. People got upset if FAF acts like some prudes over fetishes and people aren't even really talking about it or caring about it, but now people are legitimately complaining that the art is bad, but that's off limits?

It's a game and if people have a beef with the art style not being up to par, it's a legitimate complaint because they are going to pay for it. That's why it's on the damn Greenlight. It's not free shit. And as I said making the case about it being for a fetish is bs because people already supply that for free. People can complain if someone is here peddling their game asking for it to be on Steam when some of the contents may violate the rules and the game doesn't look spectacular. There's nothing to defend over that.


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Just pointing out that it is a fetish game. It doesn't mean it has to be a sexual fetish, fetish just means something you enjoy or have an attraction to. It's most commonly associated with sexuality, but it doesn't have to be.

In the circumstances here though, it does appear to be a sexualised fetish going on, and I suspect it will not survive on Greenlight for that reason. Looking at the screenshots up there, there is some form of nudity. Even if it's furry nudity where nothing shows because it's covered in fur, to the casual viewer it's just nudity.

Also, it sounds completely fucking stupid on all counts. But let's ignore that.

Games can survive shit artwork as long as it's backed up by good gameplay, music and whatever. But being that gaming is a visual medium, art assets are what people see and judge by. If this game wants to stand any chance at all of getting peoples money, they really need far better graphics. At the moment it looks like one of the really shitty webcomics where the artist just draws tits to get attention away from their inability to draw a humanoid body.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Just to clear confusion. Greenlight isn't kickstarter or Indiegogo. It's not for funding a game. The game should already exist. It just wants the available audience through Steam. Anyone can submit to Greenlight fairly easily, it's up for the community to want to buy the game through Steam. I've seen people violate the rules post up 4chan screenshots, half finished games etc...

This game already had 27,000 funded to create it (which I wonder where the heck that money went if it couldn't even get better graphics for one, writing for the other, and looks like it's running off an already existing game engine)


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeah, I know that. They said it had been funded through Indiegogo. Thats the problem. Here's the finished product. And it looks like that.

From what I hear, getting in to Greenlight is as easy as paying the $100 fee. Of course, then they look at it and decide if it can stay there. The money they are looking to get off people is from paying customers they want to gain through getting on to Steam.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Smelge said:


> Yeah, I know that. They said it had been funded through Indiegogo. Thats the problem. Here's the finished product. And it looks like that.
> 
> From what I hear, getting in to Greenlight is as easy as paying the $100 fee. Of course, then they look at it and decide if it can stay there. The money they are looking to get off people is from paying customers they want to gain through getting on to Steam.



Pretty much. I think people in the thread may have been confused that it needed more funding. That game should be finished and ready to go on Greenlight. 

One of the replies was kinda funny



> [Team Double D]rigodrigo 18 hours ago
> i recommend this to any kids younger than 7 or above that works too


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> I'm not so sure about that. I wouldn't fap to that. Take that however you will.
> 
> 
> They're trying to pitch the game to the furry community here and they want to show that there's content for furries?
> ...


Okay, okay? Search for Tftg on FA. Sort it by popularity. Tell me that the standard of art people fap to is higher than what was presented in this thread.  

Oh, because the TC is aiming this at the furry community, the game is NOT fetish centered? My mistake, I thought furry was a fetish! Clearly the TC doesn't think that, either!

Are you telling me that you think people who don't like the fetishes featured in this game will enjoy it anyway? Am I really stupid for thinking that in itself would turn people off from the game? I guess so, I mean, I've clearly been blind to all the popular games that are centered around extreme fetishes. 



Heliophobic said:


> wut


Sorry, I figured that a fetish in this context meant that it was an object of sexual desire. Let's see what Webster has to say about it.

"a need or desire for an object, body part, or activity for sexual excitement"

Oh, whoops! Totally different from MY definition! Sorry! 



Arshes Nei said:


> What a stupid argument. People got upset if FAF acts like some prudes over fetishes and people aren't even really talking about it or caring about it, but now people are legitimately complaining that the art is bad, but that's off limits?
> 
> It's a game and if people have a beef with the art style not being up to par, it's a legitimate complaint because they are going to pay for it. That's why it's on the damn Greenlight. It's not free shit. And as I said making the case about it being for a fetish is bs because people already supply that for free. People can complain if someone is here peddling their game asking for it to be on Steam when some of the contents may violate the rules and the game doesn't look spectacular. There's nothing to defend over that.


Okay, okay, you're right. I'm stupid for thinking that the hardcore fetish aspect minimizes your audience more than the art style. 
I'm not saying the complaint's off limits, I just find it ridiculous that everyone's complaining about THAT and NOT the tftg.


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## Heliophobic (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Sorry, I figured that a fetish in this context meant that it was an object of sexual desire. Let's see what Webster has to say about it.
> 
> "a need or desire for an object, body part, or activity for sexual excitement"
> 
> Oh, whoops! Totally different from MY definition! Sorry!



Okay so like you're saying porn can't contain fetishes? Or something?

You're wording this so horribly and I have no idea what you're trying to say.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Okay, okay, you're right. I'm stupid for thinking that the hardcore fetish aspect minimizes your audience more than the art style.
> I'm not saying the complaint's off limits, I just find it ridiculous that everyone's complaining about THAT and NOT the tftg.



Several things, just because someone has a fetish doesn't mean that they don't want decent art. People like werewolves. They don't want to see a shitty transformation involving a werewolf or just "well that's ok as long as there's a transformation (no matter how poorly done), I'm good" Just because someone puts out "Foot Fetish 30" because they know people are there wanting to fulfill their foot fetish also doesn't guarantee it makes money. 

Obviously a show like Ranma 1/2 has these kinds of fetishes, was drawn by a woman, made for boys, but was wildly popular for what it was. It had nudity and some perversion as well. It still did well. The art style that Takahashi has isn't the best but it's serviceable. The characters look different and it made it engaging. 

So why should people complain about the fetish if the art style sticks out like a store thumb as well as the mediocre writing? It's fairly obvious by now if the OP doesn't have a finished game, they're trying to peddle more shit which is astounding since 27,000 if you want to split the payments between artist, writer and musician evenly gave them 9,000 to work with. Seeing as the game engine was probably already created since Visual Novels are fairly easy to create in terms of gameplay. 

I seriously find that fucking ridiculous given that it went 5 times the asking price to *finish the fucking game.*


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## Tailmon1 (Dec 1, 2013)

I'd like to point out that their Demo download site was loaded with
 Spyware as are the links. It kind of killed my want to visit or try the 
demo. I had to shut it down instantly when every warning in my
 protections went off.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Heliophobic said:


> Okay so like you're saying porn can't contain fetishes? Or something?
> 
> You're wording this so horribly and I have no idea what you're trying to say.


Okay, clearly I don't understand the English language. I don't know if explaining it any further will help me convey what I'm trying to say, because I didn't think I explained it poorly the first time, yet I unanimously confused everyone here. I will try anyway, however. Please excuse my poor translation.
No. I'm saying that people fap to fetishes just as they would porn. Fetishes don't have to have any overtly sexual content to be the object of sexual desire.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> No. I'm saying that people fap to fetishes just as they would porn. Fetishes don't have to have any overtly sexual content to be the object of sexual desire.


I'm not sure you understand what a fetish means to a person who has it.


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Wait. It's meant to be a graphic novel thing?

With shitty graphics? Fucking hell, if thats the case, I agree with Arshes. Where the hell has the money gone? Graphic novel, there should be a lot of money poured in to art assets.

Fuck me.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Several things, just because someone has a fetish doesn't mean that they don't want decent art. People like werewolves. They don't want to see a shitty transformation involving a werewolf or just "well that's ok as long as there's a transformation (no matter how poorly done), I'm good" Just because someone puts out "Foot Fetish 30" because they know people are there wanting to fulfill their foot fetish also doesn't guarantee it makes money.
> 
> Obviously a show like Ranma 1/2 has these kinds of fetishes, was drawn by a woman, made for boys, but was wildly popular for what it was. It had nudity and some perversion as well. It still did well. The art style that Takahashi has isn't the best but it's serviceable. The characters look different and it made it engaging.
> 
> ...


I disagree, because I have seen terrible quality art first hand that is very popular despite it. People driven by a fetish that isn't widely available will eat up anything they can get. 
You're right that it's not a good source of making money. Unless you change the game's focus, that won't stop being a problem. Once the focus is changed, then you can worry about the art. 

I've never watched Ranma 1/2, but I imagine that the tg aspect is -not- the central point of the anime, rather it's the artwork and the writing. This makes the anime approachable to a wider audience. In this case, the fetish -is- the central point, as advertised, therefore you're aiming exclusively to the people who are interested in that. If it wants to be more successful, the focus needs to be changed.

If the people funding the game are complaining about the art style, then they're asking for something that's miles above what's out there. They're asking for too much.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Remember, someone is defending a game that is a visual novel that has 27k poured into it. LOL. A non artist telling others what is standard for art.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Remember, someone is defending a game that is a visual novel that has 27k poured into it. LOL. A non artist telling others what is standard for art.


Who are you referring to here?


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Who are you referring to here?



Well obviously not you because you know you're a fantastic artist that got all the art references I made to in other threads and this one.

Seriously, Sonic art style is hard, but apparently this art is standard. Fucking ridiculous for 27k.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well obviously not you because you know you're a fantastic artist that got all the art references I made to in other threads and this one.


So you are talking about me. Scathing criticism on my art aside, I am not defending this game at all. In fact, I am doing the opposite. I am calling it flawed to its very core, on a level deeper than its visuals.

I'm saying this is the sort of art that is the standard among Tftg art. It is a very specific niche, and it is even rarer for an artist to be a part of that specific niche.
My argument was that the Sonic style was as hard as _any other style._ The only thing differentiating that and more complex styles is time.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> So you are talking about me. Scathing criticism on my art aside, I am not defending this game at all. In fact, I am doing the opposite. I am calling it flawed to its very core, on a level deeper than its visuals.



The thing is being a fetish game isn't the biggest though. If it had better visuals and writing even with the fetish material people are willing to look some things aside. Dragon's Crown appeals to a lot of other kinds of fetish material yet the gameplay is fun. 

Just because someone has a fetish doesn't mean there's no taste or standard of art quality.


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Remember, someone is defending a game that is a visual novel that has 27k poured into it. LOL. A non artist telling others what is standard for art.



People need a nice cool glass of Calm The Fuck Down in here.

Artistic capabilities do not represent the ability to see things are wrong in art. People with no artistic talent are allowed to be able to spot things, and standing on a high horse and declaring it is not so just makes you look snobbish. We know you're a great artist and so on and so forth. It doesn't mean other peoples opinions are any less valid.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Smelge said:


> People need a nice cool glass of Calm The Fuck Down in here.
> 
> Artistic capabilities do not represent the ability to see things are wrong in art. People with no artistic talent are allowed to be able to spot things, and standing on a high horse and declaring it is not so just makes you look snobbish. We know you're a great artist and so on and so forth. It doesn't mean other peoples opinions are any less valid.




They don't that's not what I'm talking about. Calling something a standard was being ignorant and shitty to other artists. This isn't about me actually because I already know I'm not even the best artist, but saying that everyone who has a fetish can't be assed to draw for shit was rather insulting in itself to many artists who draw. That somehow because someone draws a fetish don't give a fuck about art. 

That's why I attack Rob's knowledge saying if he's gonna sit there and act like an artist at least do the research on other artists instead of just assuming with a half assed insult. 

It's like saying H. R Giger doesn't give a shit about art he was just drawing his fetish. Maybe I should also talk about Sorayama too?


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> It's like saying H. R Giger doesn't give a shit about art he was just drawing his fetish.



Well, all he draws is dickmonsters. He'd fit in around these parts.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> The thing is being a fetish game isn't the biggest though. If it had better visuals and writing even with the fetish material people are willing to look some things aside. Dragon's Crown appeals to a lot of other kinds of fetish material yet the gameplay is fun.
> 
> Just because someone has a fetish doesn't mean there's no taste or standard of art quality.


That would be changing the core focus of the game. It would be better for it, but it wouldn't be the original intention of the TC: fapping material. The problem here is the intent, and that needs to be changed before the art or writing.

This is just me, but when I'm looking for transformation fetish material, I have a harder time fapping to it if it doesn't look like the _intent_ is for me to fap to it. If I'm reading a transformation story, and it's an extremely well written story, I'm left wondering whether the writer actually wants me to fap to this, rather than appreciate the quality of the writing. 
In addition, I really shouldn't be _expecting_ good quality writing, because it's a fetish that not a lot of people have, let alone artists, let alone professional artists. It's not that I wouldn't like higher quality stuff, but I have no right to complain, since it's such a specific thing.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> That would be changing the core focus of the game.



How the fuck does better or worse artwork change the focus of a game? :|


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Smelge said:


> Well, all he draws is dickmonsters. He'd fit in around these parts.



Hah and some of the most iconic monster designs in history.

Just saying fetish is not the biggest excuse. I even agreed with Gibby about even getting the game off to a start - probably father than most who spend more time dreaming about making games. But at 27k if the artist hired can't make it look more polished maybe time to invest in someone who can. Like I said if you divided it between 3 major creatives - writer, musician and artist that's still a good 9k 

I think I missed it but how much are they asking for if it gets on Steam?


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> I think I missed it but how much are they asking for if it gets on Steam?


It's $25 on Desura.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> How the fuck does better or worse artwork change the focus of a game? :|


Because when you focus on the artwork, rather than the fetish itself, the game becomes less about the fetish and more about the art. The quality of the artwork will demand the attention of the viewer, and distract from the fap session. It's like seeing a painting of a naked lady in a museum. I mean, it's a naked lady, but are you really gonna fap to that?


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> It's $25 on Desura.



 that's quite the amount for a graphic visual novel that's not finished?




SirRob said:


> Because when you focus on the artwork, rather than the fetish itself, the game becomes less about the fetish and more about the art. The quality of the artwork will demand the attention of the viewer, and distract from the fap session. It's like seeing a painting of a naked lady in a museum. I mean, it's a naked lady, but are you really gonna fap to that?



This really makes no sense whatsoever. 

Given that many men have done the example you provided.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Because when you focus on the artwork, rather than the fetish itself, the game becomes less about the fetish and more about the art. The quality of the artwork will demand the attention of the viewer, and distract from the fap session. It's like seeing a painting of a naked lady in a museum. I mean, it's a naked lady, but are you really gonna fap to that?


I don't... What.

Okay. So between porn drawn by Wolfy-Nail, or porn drawn by this guy, you'd choose "this guy" because it's less about the art and more about the porn, right?


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> This really makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> Given that many men have done the example you provided.


The example makes sense. The quality of artwork and sexual appeal (art vs. porn) are two different factors. However, you're right in that those factors have different levels of strength depending on the viewer. It's subjective, but it certainly exists.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's a threshold between art quality and sexual appeal. If one goes to an extreme, the other gets lost. The threshold is different for everyone, but by looking at your audience and what their interests are, you can gauge what sort of balance they like the most. And I think that balance is close to what we see in the OP, given the audience is people interested in tftg.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Except that people who did invest in the game are upset with the art style. They funded it hoping for improvements.

But no, your example still doesn't make sense. You can make things good and have sexual appeal. Crazy huh?


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's a threshold between art quality and sexual appeal. If one goes to an extreme, the other gets lost.


So by that logic, it's possible for a person to be too beautiful to be sexually attractive.

... And *specifically implies* that the lower the quality of a piece, the higher the sexual appeal. Is there something you're not telling us, Rob? Do you have a fetish for bad art?



> And I think that balance is close to what we see in the OP, given the audience is people interested in tftg.


There you go bashing fetishes again.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Except that people who did invest in the game are upset with the art style. They funded it hoping for improvements.
> 
> But no, your example still doesn't make sense. You can make things good and have sexual appeal. Crazy huh?


I think the question becomes what good actually is. To me it certainly isn't realism, because I think this applies just as much to photography as it does art. I don't think the art world labels fine art and porn in the same category, unless you can provide an example. Maybe I'm taking this to an extreme, but then if that's the case, why should it be taken any further than what you see on FA when you search for Tftg? The people who are complaining, as I've said, are just asking for too much. Suddenly the target audience isn't the tftg community, but specifically the people funding you.



Runefox said:


> So by that logic, it's possible for a person to be too beautiful to be sexually attractive.
> 
> ... And *specifically implies* that the lower the quality of a piece, the higher the sexual appeal. Is there something you're not telling us, Rob? Do you have a fetish for bad art?
> 
> ...


I agree completely with that logic. I certainly find women to be more beautiful than men, but to me they are not sexually attractive. 

As I've said, there's a threshold. If the quality of art gets too low, the sexual appeal gets lost as well.

I have fetishes. I am not bashing fetishes. I am just observing what is being produced for that fetish.


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't get why the game is getting so much hate. Sure, it raised a lot of money but that was because people saw the old artstyle and went 'Sure, I'd like to see a game made with this art style. Good luck!' and so we did. The fundraising wasn't to hire a new artist/writer and completely change the team (which wouldn't work anyway), it was to produce more content at the quality we were advertising on the Indiegogo campaign. We actually did improve it since then, but it's not our fault that people liked the style enough to give us a large sum of money. We used that to triple the length of the game and add in a bunch of new playable characters. We wouldn't be able to do that and hire a super expensive artist/writer, and considering the amount of content we have in the game already I think we did the right thing by everyone who supported us, and you can see that in our player reviews of people who actually played the game: http://www.indiedb.com/games/gender-bender-dna-twister-extreme/reviews , rather than first impression troll comments on Greenlight.

I understand why some people don't like it, but for some reason everyone decides to go out of their way and bash the game endlessly, be it here or on the Greenlight discussion board. Surely if you didn't like the game you'd just vote No and walk away, or ignore any topics about it? It just seems like people are way over-reacting about a silly light hearted rom com. It's not like it's trying to push an agenda or anything.


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> So by that logic, it's possible for a person to be too beautiful to be sexually attractive.



Yes.

People get to a point that they're so attractive, it's just impossible to imagine them wanting anything to do with you, so all fantasies fall flat.


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## Tailmon1 (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> II understand why some people don't like it, but for some reason everyone decides to go out of their way and bash the game endlessly, be it here or on the Greenlight discussion board. Surely if you didn't like the game you'd just vote No and walk away, or ignore any topics about it? It just seems like people are way over-reacting about a silly light hearted rom com. It's not like it's trying to push an agenda or anything.



I like the art its the fact that the add and the demo are riddled with adware and spybots that nuke your comp.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> I don't get why the game is getting so much hate.
> I understand why some people don't like it, but for some reason everyone decides to go out of their way and bash the game endlessly, be it here or on the Greenlight discussion board. Surely if you didn't like the game you'd just vote No and walk away, or ignore any topics about it? It just seems like people are way over-reacting about a silly light hearted rom com. It's not like it's trying to push an agenda or anything.



It's actually getting legitimate flack. Greenlight isn't for erotic games when you have nudity involved. It's against the rules actually.
The game isn't apparently finished. So people you are selling to expect a finished product. When they see have 27k in it, they do expect better quality.
The older art actually looks better than the newer art. But the people who already invested in it may be happy but I have seen comments that people who also invested said that the art could be more polished too.

So now you're advertising to sell this game on a major game site for 25.

The blame isn't that you got more money than you bargained for but it did seem that some of that money was for commissioned fanart too?


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

That's probably just mediafire. I've used it fine in the past, but there's always the chance that some regions get a bad ad or something. That's completely out of my hands, you can grab the old demo off Desura if you want to play, or grab this reupload I just did to mega: https://mega.co.nz/#!WA5GXZoZ!I2ZL6yvbUAt8PAEnd5xJ3168fh0JslReOQioogTzG_c

Sorry about that


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## Smelge (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> I don't get why the game is getting so much hate. Sure, it raised a lot of money but that was because people saw the old artstyle and went 'Sure, I'd like to see a game made with this art style. Good luck!' and so we did.


Did they actually say that, or did they donate in the hopes something they would be interested in would be upgraded to better art?



> The fundraising wasn't to hire a new artist/writer and completely change the team (which wouldn't work anyway), it was to produce more content at the quality we were advertising on the Indiegogo campaign. We actually did improve it since then, but it's not our fault that people liked the style enough to give us a large sum of money. We used that to triple the length of the game and add in a bunch of new playable characters. We wouldn't be able to do that and hire a super expensive artist/writer, and considering the amount of content we have in the game already I think we did the right thing by everyone who supported us, and you can see that in our player reviews of people who actually played the game: http://www.indiedb.com/games/gender-bender-dna-twister-extreme/reviews , rather than first impression troll comments on Greenlight.



Most of the "troll" comments I see on Greenlight are complaining about the art and anatomy and how it looks far too amateur. What you seem to be forgetting is that the people who are saying this are part of your potential audience. If it is to leave Greenlight, it needs to appeal to a wider audience, otherwise what's the point in putting it on there? The people who wanted to fund it know about it, and maybe they like it how it  is, but if you've turned off the wider audience, you're fucked. No point in getting it Greenlit.



> I understand why some people don't like it, but for some reason everyone decides to go out of their way and bash the game endlessly, be it here or on the Greenlight discussion board. Surely if you didn't like the game you'd just vote No and walk away, or ignore any topics about it? It just seems like people are way over-reacting about a silly light hearted rom com. It's not like it's trying to push an agenda or anything.



Or maybe people are trying to tell you whats wrong? Some will be trolling, but I suspect you're lumping genuine criticism in with trolling and just whinging about it.



Arshes Nei said:


> The blame isn't that you got more money than  you bargained for but it did seem that some of that money was for  commissioned fanart too?



Have you got a link for that?


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> It's actually getting legitimate flack. Greenlight isn't for erotic games when you have nudity involved. It's against the rules actually.
> The game isn't apparently finished. So people you are selling to expect a finished product. When they see have 27k in it, they do expect better quality.
> The older art actually looks better than the newer art. But the people who already invested in it may be happy but I have seen comments that people who also invested said that the art could be more polished too.
> 
> ...



Oh, David commissioned that fanart with some money he got from doing an art commission album cover on the side. I didn't have anything to do with it.

And we're actually sold under early access on Desura, it's paying to get access to the current build and all future builds up until the game is done. As for nudity, we're not showing anything more than The Witcher or countless other games on Steam. We mentioned we had some nudity on the Greenlight page, but the goal of the game isn't to have erotic sex scenes with women like Seduce Me was. We've been up for a few days and moderators have looked at our page, and we read the terms of service a bunch of times and it doesn't provide any clarification on what is or isn't allowed, it's deliberately vague.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I think the question becomes what good actually is. To me it certainly isn't realism, because I think this applies just as much to photography as it does art. I don't think the art world labels fine art and porn in the same category, unless you can provide an example.


Look up erotica sometime. Maybe burlesque.



> Maybe I'm taking this to an extreme, but then if that's the case, why should it be taken any further than what you see on FA when you search for Tftg? The people who are complaining, as I've said, are just asking for too much. Suddenly the target audience isn't the tftg community, but specifically the people funding you.


This line of reasoning is just terrible. "Oh, the average tftg art on FA isn't that great, so that's what we should aim for with our game"? There's plenty of examples of that kind of artwork that DOESN'T suck, and while I didn't want to break it out, DracoJeff has such a project on Offbeatr that hit its goal in less than 12 hours and is vastly better drawn than this. I won't link to it, but you can get there from his profile pretty easily.



> I agree completely with that logic. I certainly find women to be more beautiful than men, but to me they are not sexually attractive.


-.- That would be because you're _gay_, Rob. You don't find _any_ women sexually attractive.



> As I've said, there's a threshold. If the quality of art gets too low, the sexual appeal gets lost as well.


 I really don't think there is. If you look at sites like SexyFur, Hard Blush, ClubStripes, et al, they're all pushing extremely high quality art from extremely high end artists and it's all porn. People pay for that. I shouldn't have to say it, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about here.



> I have fetishes. I am not bashing fetishes. I am just observing what is being produced for that fetish.


So for the sake of argument, if artwork that pandered to your fetish was generally pretty shit and you suddenly came across the most amazing rendering of it you've ever seen, you'd be more attracted to the shit than the high quality art? Because for me, and as evidenced by paysites, it's exactly the opposite.



Zetsub said:


> I don't get why the game is getting so much hate. Sure, it raised a lot of money but that was because people saw the old artstyle and went 'Sure, I'd like to see a game made with this art style. Good luck!' and so we did. The fundraising wasn't to hire a new artist/writer and completely change the team (which wouldn't work anyway), it was to produce more content at the quality we were advertising on the Indiegogo campaign.


You know, when I found out how much you guys raised on Indiegogo, I was shocked, but putting it that way it makes sense. Still, the fact that it's been such a big point of contention should serve as an indicator of where perhaps some future efforts should go? I mean I've tried to keep a pretty open mind about the art style but I haven't really been able to get into the game as a result. It's just a bit too jarring, you know? It's not even so much the style as it is the anatomy, really. I'm not sure how much of the Indiegogo money remains, but I think it might be a good idea to talk up some artists (maybe ChemNo9, who did that frankly amazing commission of Dina and Lynn) to see if they might be interested in commissioning official artwork for the game along with a modest royalty share. It would certainly help keep these kinds of complaints and negative focus on the artwork down. Maybe as a graphics pack later down the road?


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## Heliophobic (Dec 1, 2013)

Well this thread certainly didn't turn out fun and happy.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Smelge said:


> Yes.
> 
> People get to a point that they're so attractive, it's just impossible to imagine them wanting anything to do with you, so all fantasies fall flat.



Hasn't stopped men from dreaming about Movie starlets before or women fantasizing about Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt in their bed.  Nor the fans that dream about superheros, anime girls or popular furry characters. 

Just saying that people are pretty much trying to stretch it as to saying "the art needs improvement" to "This shit needs to be Master Painting yo" 

The biggest turnoff about the art is that people look stretched. The eyes too are high up on the head  half the time. The coloring doesn't have a palette that creates mood for the scenes. they're just thrown on there as to hey whatever. The hair and fur are drawn like bad rug mats. I mean it's really apparent in the OP's avatar too. It's hard to pay attention to where you're going to look because there isn't composition.

There's those stock poses too the mermaid scene looks more interesting on greenlight but half the time it's that kind of weird hold the arms behind you kind of pose than looking like something engaging is happening. Granted most visual novels have that kinda stupid stock pose, but there's a lot to be said that a lot of them have nice little emotional piece of art too.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> Look up erotica sometime. Maybe burlesque.
> 
> 
> This line of reasoning is just terrible. "Oh, the average tftg art on FA isn't that great, so that's what we should aim for with our game"? There's plenty of examples of that kind of artwork that DOESN'T suck, and while I didn't want to break it out, DracoJeff has such a project on Offbeatr that hit its goal in less than 12 hours and is vastly better drawn than this. I won't link to it, but you can get there from his profile pretty easily.
> ...


Neither of those are pornography. The subject matter of the former is nudity, but the intent lies at a level above fapping material. 

The quality of DracoJeff is certainly higher than what I've looked at, so that's definitely evidence that fans are interested in a higher quality. But just as there are examples like that, there are popular examples that aren't so artistically refined. The root of the problem ultimately lies in the tftg fans' tolerance of the artwork that's being produced. If there was more of a demand for better art, if there was more competition, as with those sites you've posted, there would be more reason to produce better art. But as it stands, why change something that's working? 

I dunno, I don't particularly find beautiful men sexually attractive, either.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

I thought it was established already that not all fetishes are porn. Even the game isn't patently pornographic but may violate the rules with erotica and nudity on Greenlight.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> I thought it was established already that not all fetishes are porn. Even the game isn't patently pornographic but may violate the rules with erotica and nudity on Greenlight.


That was established, yes. But the point I'm making is the intent of those things. Fetish and porn are not the same, but they have the same intent. In the context of intent, I should be able to use the two interchangeably. Erotica doesn't have the same intent as porn, therefore it doesn't have the same intent as a fetish. The intent of porn cannot be fine art, therefore the intent of fetish cannot be fine art.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> That was established, yes. But the point I'm making is the intent of those things. Fetish and porn are not the same, but they have the same intent. In the context of intent, I should be able to use the two interchangeably.



Well the problem is you're kinda using an assumption as to what everyone would want out of a fetish, and that isn't always the case. Not to mention Fetish has different meanings and when talking about "sexual fetish" it's usually about making things that are not considered sexual, sexual. Or it can be an enhancement.

If the enhancement doesn't have an appeal it's not always good as a fetish... you know things like art quality.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well the problem is you're kinda using an assumption as to what everyone would want out of a fetish, and that isn't always the case. Not to mention Fetish has different meanings and when talking about "sexual fetish" it's usually about making things that are not considered sexual, sexual. Or it can be an enhancement.
> 
> If the enhancement doesn't have an appeal it's not always good as a fetish... you know things like art quality.


Please understand that I am using the word fetish to describe an object of sexual attraction. If there is a better word I can use for that, feel free to tell me. I use fetish because most people I talk to with a sexual desire for a non-sexual object describe that desire as a fetish.

The issue of art quality is why I described the threshold.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Please understand that I am using the word fetish to describe an object of sexual attraction. If there is a better word I can use for that, feel free to tell me.
> 
> That's why I described the threshold.



Which again, if someone has a leg fetish, they want certain quality legs. Just because someone has a fetish with gender bending doesn't mean that they just accept anything for the art style or transformations for that matter. There is such thing as being particular and taste instead of assuming that just because a small group of people were into it that there isn't a larger base into certain kinds of fetishes wouldn't have a higher demand of quality.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Please understand that I am using the word fetish to describe an object of sexual attraction.


And erotica and burlesque serves _which_ purpose...?

The overall intent of both of those things is both as artistic expression and to arouse and entertain.

... Y'know. One of those things what isn't a single purpose.

Also


SirRob said:


> *Please understand
> 
> 
> 
> Please understand*


----------



## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

It's not really a fetish game, it's a romantic comedy with gender bending/transformations as the central theme.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> It's not really a fetish game, it's a romantic comedy with gender bending/transformations as the central theme.



It's being taken as such because of the subject matter and how it is written.
I can kind of see the comedy, but I'll be honest - work on the romance it's like not really there...

You are trying to appeal to a mainstream gaming community, correct? I think you need to think outside your bubble if you want it published on Steam via Greenlight outside the community you tried to appeal to.


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

No, we're still a niche game. We're just trying to get on Steam because we want to be available to a wider audience, i.e. the large number of people on Steam that would be interested in this game if they saw it on Steam, like the people who first heard of the game through Desura. 

If we wanted mainstream appeal we'd make a Zombie game or a Sim game, those get through Greenlight all the time. What we're making is a niche game, and there's no getting around it.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Which again, if someone has a leg fetish, they want certain quality legs. Just because someone has a fetish with gender bending doesn't mean that they just accept anything for the art style or transformations for that matter. There is such thing as being particular and taste instead of assuming that just because a small group of people were into it that there isn't a larger base into certain kinds of fetishes wouldn't have a higher demand of quality.


Right. They won't accept anything. Which is why you should look for what's being produced for that fetish. And looking at that, I found that the quality of art provided in the OP matches some of the most popular tftg artworks on FA. Honestly I would be pretty surprised if there was a larger tftg fanbase anywhere other than FA. _Maybe_ dA. So I think it's a good source to find what quality of art the fans are interested in .



Runefox said:


> And erotica and burlesque serves _which_ purpose...?
> 
> The overall intent of both of those things is both as artistic expression and to arouse and entertain.
> 
> ... Y'know. One of those things what isn't a single purpose.


Yes. They operate on levels other than fapping material. The intent is different from being pure fapping material, thus it is not porn.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> No, we're still a niche game. We're just trying to get on Steam because we want to be available to a wider audience, i.e. the large number of people on Steam that would be interested in this game if they saw it on Steam, like the people who first heard of the game through Desura.
> 
> If we wanted mainstream appeal we'd make a Zombie game or a Sim game, those get through Greenlight all the time. What we're making is a niche game, and there's no getting around it.



Which is contradicting.

I'm not saying your game needs to be mainstream, I'm saying your niche game needs work because it's being presented on a mainstream server which hosts many different kinds of games. I think your inability to accept actual critiques on your game is hurting more than helping your cause.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Right. They won't accept anything. Which is why you should look for what's being produced for that fetish. And looking at that, I found that the quality of art provided in the OP matches some of the most popular tftg artworks on FA. Honestly I would be pretty surprised if there was a larger tftg fanbase anywhere other than FA. _Maybe_ dA. So I think it's a good source to find what quality of art the fans are interested in .


. . .

So you allege that fans of a subject specifically enjoy a certain quality of artwork because that is the lion's share of artwork available for the subject? So if a subject happens to be enjoyed primarily by people with very limited artistic ability, their ability represents what they want out of the art? Because that's pretty dumb.



> Yes. They operate on levels other than fapping material. The intent is different from being pure fapping material, thus it is not porn.


But people fap to it. It's meant to be sexual. Once upon a time, it was the only form of porn available. But it's also widely considered art. In other words, it can be both, and the intention is almost always for it to be both. It's really quite silly that we're arguing what is and isn't porn and what the intention of the subject matter is when you said earlier that a fetish (in this case, tftg/rule 63) automatically makes something fap-worthy regardless of the actual intention.


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Which is contradicting.
> 
> I'm not saying your game needs to be mainstream, I'm saying your niche game needs work because it's being presented on a mainstream server which hosts many different kinds of games. I think your inability to accept actual critiques on your game is hurting more than helping your cause.



But I am accepting critiques..? If you look at the reviews from the Yael route compared to the Lynn route, we've made big changes to the game to match player feedback. We are listening.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> But I am accepting critiques..? If you look at the reviews from the Yael route compared to the Lynn route, we've made big changes to the game to match player feedback. We are listening.



You said earlier that Greenlight were troll comments. They're actually critiques. 

There's been quite a bit of feedback not just the art but how it plays. But you immediately called people commenting on Greenlight trolls. So why should anyone feel that what you're saying about listening is really the truth? The comment comes off as just as bias as you claim others to be.


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## Zetsub (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh no, not all of the greenlight comments are trolls! There's just a lot of troll comments on there, and they outweigh all the reasonable comments. There's actually some really supportive comments on there too!


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Runefox said:


> . . .
> 
> So you allege that fans of a subject specifically enjoy a certain quality of artwork because that is the lion's share of artwork available for the subject? So if a subject happens to be enjoyed primarily by people with very limited artistic ability, their ability represents what they want out of the art? Because that's pretty dumb.
> 
> ...


I'm saying I have no reason NOT to believe that.

People fap to everything.
It's sexual. Yes. But that sexuality is used to fuel an artistic purpose, and that is why an art institution would label it as art. It would not be labeled as porn, because if it was porn, it would be rejected by the art world. Just because something has elements of something else, that doesn't equate it in every way. Those elements can be equated, but not the entirety. 
The reason we're discussing porn vs. art is because the same correlation can be used with fetish, although it's easier to make comparisons with the former.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

Zetsub said:


> Oh no, not all of the greenlight comments are trolls! There's just a lot of troll comments on there, and they outweigh all the reasonable comments. There's actually some really supportive comments on there too!



Point them out please because the majority of them have legitimate gripes. If someone saw that something got 27,000 I think it is reasonable to be a bit incredulous at the quality of the game itself.

I see other comments that the art is rather amateur, which is also a legitimate gripe.

I don't see comments like "fuck you assholes for this game"

Then I saw a couple of supportive comments, then you have the stupid "well I'd like to see you do better" and honestly uhh I can, which is why I'm pretty critical of the art. I'm not great but man, you really have to work on that art. The writing didn't come off particularly spectacular. I mean in terms of visual Novels the latest Phoenix Wright even has issues lol.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I'm saying I have no reason NOT to believe that.
> 
> People fap to everything.
> It's sexual. Yes. But that sexuality is used to fuel an artistic purpose, and that is why an art institution would label it as art. It would not be labeled as porn, because if it was porn, it would be rejected by the art world.



Michael Ninn

Of course it can also be debatable due to different time and morals... In all honesty, ART HISTORY - GET SOME. I mean  the arguments being pulled out here is crazy silly because it's like off the cuff.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Michael Ninn
> 
> Of course it can also be debatable due to different time and morals... In all honesty, ART HISTORY - GET SOME. I mean  the arguments being pulled out here is crazy silly because it's like off the cuff.


I'm sorry, we didn't discuss pornography directors in my art history courses.


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## Imperial Impact (Dec 1, 2013)

Are you mad, because no dongs?


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Imperial Impact said:


> Are you mad, because no dongs?


Oh no, I'm not mad. I just have a fetish for having my thoughts be called dumb and stupid.


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## Imperial Impact (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Oh no, I'm not mad. I just have a fetish for having my thoughts be called dumb and stupid.


Seems legit.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I'm sorry, we didn't discuss pornography directors in my art history courses.



He wasn't just a pornography director. He went into porn later. Like I said it might not hurt you to get some art history and do some research. Just sayin'


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

I've got nothing to say to that. I am just so frustrated that you keep attacking both my artistic skill and my artistic knowledge. You've done it, you've gotten to me. Congratulations.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I've got nothing to say to that. I am just so frustrated that you keep attacking both my artistic skill and my artistic knowledge. You've done it, you've gotten to me. Congratulations.



FYI I'm attacking your artistic knowledge over your skill tbh. There's a reason I haven't gotten into critiques about your art more over the knowledge you have about art in general, to the point you were willing to attack other people's skill as "standard" when it was insulting to many artists who may do fetish art that have much better skills to say they only just cater to base instincts and not care about their art at all. It's kinda insulting to many who just because they may do a fetish, don't care about actual improvement or the craft itself?

So maybe before thinking how much my statement got you you, maybe you should think about how you were being rather insulting and careless about making sweeping generalizations about why people create art and what they only care about?


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

The main basis for believing that people with fetishes don't have a high standard for art is because my most popular works by far are my TF art, works that I personally look down upon. Why should those artists care when there is no high standard to be met.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> The main basis for believing that people with fetishes don't have a high standard for art is because my most popular works by far are my TF art, works that I personally look down upon. Why should those artists care when there is no high standard to be met.



But those are your most popular works you create. That isn't the same for everyone, especially depending on the venue where you present your work. There was a thread not too long ago about people wondering why people had a beef with fanart, and when your audience are kids that grew up on consumable entertainment they're probably more interested in seeing a pic of Tifa or whatever hot character that is out there, than say someone's original creation on Deviantart.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

I understand that. Which is why I'm saying that as long as you know what your audience likes, just stick to that level of quality and you'll be a success. If that level is low, then that's fine. That's not insulting anyone.


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## Runefox (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I understand that. Which is why I'm saying that as long as you know what your audience likes, just stick to that level of quality and you'll be a success. If that level is low, then that's fine. That's not insulting anyone.


I have a head-shaped indent on my desk, and a desk-shaped indent on my head.


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## Schwimmwagen (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> I understand that. Which is why I'm saying that as long as you know what your audience likes, just stick to that level of quality and you'll be a success. If that level is low, then that's fine. That's not insulting anyone.



maximum underachieving


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Then it's settled, we're all in agreement that TC is a-ok. Underachieving is still achieving, so it works, and we're done.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Then it's settled, we're all in agreement that TC is a-ok. Underachieving is still achieving, so it works, and we're done.



uhh no. What are you on about?

Talk about the game itself not your personal issues.


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## SirRob (Dec 1, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> uhh no. What are you on about?
> 
> Talk about the game itself not your personal issues.


Game's good, what was the problem again?

Personally, I like the art. Fine job, that art.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 1, 2013)

SirRob said:


> Game's good, what was the problem again?
> 
> Personally, I like the art. Fine job, that art.



Is that why you called the whole thing flawed to its core.
Seriously Rob what is wrong with you... it's like this thread became about you for no other reason that you're upset with your own audience.

I'm just gonna have to close this if that's how you're gonna act and then backpedal and pull bs like that. I think the complaints about the OP's game still stand though.


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