# Who here believes that spirits exist?



## Danius (Apr 10, 2007)

Am just wondering if how many persons here believe that energy-based, immaterial beings exist.

I hope the poll works right.


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## Infinity (Apr 10, 2007)

Well, I picked the second to last option... Everyone has different levels of psychic ability though.

For those familiar with Something Awful and the time SF-O got Weekend Web'd . I'd say it again why I believe things the way as they are, but I'm afraid I'd get shot by the locals.

We can see and hear only through flesh, so why not?


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## Tinintri (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm certain spirits exist and that's kind of what I base my so-called 'religious' beliefs upon.  I mean, there's no explanation otherwise for how my dreams often come out telling me what'll happen or what won't happen.  There's no explanation (other than pure coincidence) that explains my brother and I having parallel thoughts all but constantly and saying them aloud.

Spirits seem to answer me too when I say "Where the fuck are my keys" on occassion cause they often turn up where I've already looked.

I dunno, that's just me.


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## Lord Eon (Apr 10, 2007)

Tinintri said:
			
		

> I'm certain spirits exist and that's kind of what I base my so-called 'religious' beliefs upon.  I mean, there's no explanation otherwise for how my dreams often come out telling me what'll happen or what won't happen.  There's no explanation (other than pure coincidence) that explains my brother and I having parallel thoughts all but constantly and saying them aloud.
> 
> Spirits seem to answer me too when I say "Where the fuck are my keys" on occassion cause they often turn up where I've already looked.
> 
> I dunno, that's just me.


Not meaning to knock your beliefs or anything, but have you considered the possibility that your 'psychic link' with your brother is owed to nothing more than the fact that, as siblings, you are very alike in the way you think and feel and that you know each other well enough to know what the other's thinking even before they can vocalise said thoughts?

Honestly, my flatmate and I are often the same; we'll think of the exact same joke in a given situation. Do I think we have a spiritual connection? Pfft! No! It's more plausible that we simply think alike in certain situations.

Anyways, I voted no. Mediums and so-called psychics have been discredited far too many times for me to take the spiritual world seriously. As for these eyewitness reports about 'anomalies', our inability to scientifically explain them with our current knowledge does not mean that there is no scientific explanation for them. To suggest otherwise is to argue from ignorance, and that is a logical fallacy.

That doesn't mean there are no 'spirits' or that psychic powers cannot possibly exist, I just find it extremely unlikely.


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## WelcomeTheCollapse (Apr 10, 2007)

Neutral, leaning towards no. Spirits, by principle, wouldn't leave physical evidence. You could say I'm a spirit Atheist; I simply look at the evidence I have and draw a logical conclusion. However, it would be more of an agnostic Atheism - I draw that conclusion, but there's always the possibility....


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## foxy (Apr 10, 2007)

All the molecules that make up a human body or any other living organism are made up of the same atoms that any other material. We consist of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, iron, calcium, sulphur etc etc just as you find it in non-living things. There is no mystic "life atom" that is found in living organism and not found in any non-living organisms.

This is evidence, it can be tested and verified as often as you wish by yourself. Please use your own body to do this experiment so that you do not hurt any frogs or other innocent individuals in the process.

The other part of the clue is that all the processes that occur inside a living body is chemical and physical processes which can be understood in terms of chemistry and physics. There are no "life processes" or "spiritual processes" that can be observed. Yes, many believers claim that we have a "soul" but they have great difficulty in providing evidence for it or the nature of this soul or what makes it tick and how it influences our body in any way.

So, all the clues point to that the cells appeared as a result of natural processes. What the cell do today is a natural process and it consist of natural materials. There is really no need for anything supernatural or unnatural in order to explain it.


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## FoxxJ (Apr 10, 2007)

I wish I knew.
Yes that is a dumb answer, and no I don't care.


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## sgolem (Apr 10, 2007)

One of my best friend's entire family has had several experiences with hauntings, so yea, I'd say there's something out there.


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## Rhainor (Apr 10, 2007)

Danius said:
			
		

> ...
> I hope the poll works right.



Just so you know, you've got multi-voting enabled (people can select more than one option).  Not sure if you meant to do that or not.  You *might* be able to change that by going to the full-edit page for the first post.


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## Silver R. Wolfe (Apr 10, 2007)

I believe that exist simply because I like that there is something in all living things that makes them live and that gives all animals and people unique personalities.  I'm sure science says that people have unique personalities because of how their brain is wired and because of environmental impressions and I'm not going to disagree with them, but I like the idea of spirits.


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## Jelly (Apr 10, 2007)

Voted for the last one. I know a bit about the "occult" sciences, not "occult-arts," so I guess that might've been a fluke.

(Hence, I don't believe in 'ghosts'/'spirits.')


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## ADF (Apr 10, 2007)

No I donâ€™t believe in spirits; because I donâ€™t believe in the supernatural, just like when we thought the stars were gods and heaven was just above the clouds it is only a matter of time till we see what these anomalies really are. What I do believe however is there is still much in this world that has yet to be explained and there are those who take advantage of that to make a buck off the believers or a name for themselves.

I have seen faint holographic images projected by areas encased in certain types of stone, levitating bowling balls and paint that drips upward. They were done by recreating circumstance in these â€˜hauntedâ€™ houses within laboratories, I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if such technology is implemented in carnival fun houses one day.


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 10, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> All the molecules that make up a human body or any other living organism are made up of the same atoms that any other material. We consist of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, iron, calcium, sulphur etc etc just as you find it in non-living things. There is no mystic "life atom" that is found in living organism and not found in any non-living organisms.
> 
> This is evidence, it can be tested and verified as often as you wish by yourself. Please use your own body to do this experiment so that you do not hurt any frogs or other innocent individuals in the process.
> 
> ...



At the same time, we don't know half as much about how our body works as we like to think we do. There has been a theory put forth that we store memories in water molecules. Isn't it feasible that if a memory can be stored in a water molecule that something of that remains after death?

My answer would have to be I've had experiences that have made me wonder, but I don't know enough to be sure and I'm not going to pretend I have the answer.


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## SFox (Apr 10, 2007)

Neutral, there's no way to know for sure. I'm agnostic so that's the obvious option for me.


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## Surgat (Apr 10, 2007)

1.)
-Everything else we've observed and discovered in the universe is physical (a physical object or process), and every event has had some sort of explanation in physical terms. 
-Therefore, by induction, the mind is physical and reported phenomena purported to be the result of ghosts/the paranormal have physical explanations.  

2.) 
There are a number of naturalistic explanations for what's reported as ghost-phenomena. 
See: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogic_hallucination 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogic_hallucination#External_links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_people#Scientific 
[There's also a kind of hallucination people experience while waking up, sometimes, but I forgot the name.]

Hallucinations? They're more likely than you think. Given that this form of explanation requires only one type of substance (material/physical substance, not physical _and_ immaterial substances), and that we have some understanding of these phenomena, we should believe these and not in the alternatives (ghosts). It's the simpler theory. 

3.)
How could things with no physical properties (gravity, electromagnetism, strong force, weak force, etc.), interact with physical things?


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## Orlith Nemeth (Apr 10, 2007)

I do beleive, and I will admit, even thought you may think I'm nuts, that I had a spiritual encounter once when I was young. Seeing an apparition in your bedroom isn't something you forget.


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## RenegadeFox (Apr 10, 2007)

well i believe there is, and you can call me crazy if you wish, for i have had several encounters, most involving the moving of objects.


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## Rilvor (Apr 10, 2007)

Just to touch on my vote, while I think everyone should be free to believe what they want, I personally very much do. You don't easily forget being assaulted by a apparition/demon ( I'm not even sure what the hell it was...) in your room


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## MacroKaiju (Apr 10, 2007)

I know for a fact Father Murphy haunts Roth Hall (the main building on campus), specifically the Escoffier restaurant. I know this for a fcat cause I saw firsthand a decorative plate, which I'm assuming had been sitting on this shelf for years, just fall over as I was admiring it from across the room.

Then there was the time I saw a statue of Mary in my church blink and look down at me.

Then there was this period when our old tv would turn on by itself, and no there was no remote for it.
Most of my family has spent time with the supernatural and generally freaky so yes they are out there!


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## foxkun (Apr 10, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> All the molecules that make up a human body or any other living organism are made up of the same atoms that any other material. We consist of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, iron, calcium, sulphur etc etc just as you find it in non-living things. There is no mystic "life atom" that is found in living organism and not found in any non-living organisms.



Actually quantum physics could completely explain why spirits (and our own) exist. Do you know how atoms actually work? 

"Quantum physics tries to explain the behavior of even smaller particles. These particles are things like electrons, protons, and neutrons. Quantum physics even describes the particles which make these particles! That's right; the model of an atom that you were taught in high-school is wrong. The electrons don't orbit like planets; they form blurred clouds of probabilities around the nucleus. Protons and neutrons? They're each made of three quarks, each with its own 'flavor' and one of three 'colors'. Lets not forget the gluons, the even smaller particles that hold this mess together when they collect and form glueballs (not a very original name)." (posted from http://www.jracademy.com/~jtucek/science/what.html for I wanted reference and was lazy  )

We have bits and particles that will never touch that can be in the two places at the same time and proven that they have done so. We have particles that are, as mentioned above, are only in probability sense in that spot - But just looking at it would change where it actually is. Memory could be justified as just firings in our brain, but really our reality is only our perceived past, we only think that reality is the way it is because that's how we personally perceive it because of past experience. 

Spirits could exist, or it could be your perception that a spirit exists which is why your reality bends to make it so. Or maybe that person wanted to stay alive so bad, that their memories effected their home and react to that want. Or maybe there was a traumatic event and emotions were so tragic that the emotional signature is still there. We could probably apply 30 other theories, but really the possibilities are as much as we can conjure up.

For me personally, my experience comes from when I moved into the house I'm at now. It's an awesome house, but there was always this almost disquieting feeling to it. Like something wasn't quite right. About a year afterwards I was hanging out with my friend and her friends. When I mentioned where I lived, her friend's boyfriend, unbelievably enough, described the house to a tee. He was the previous owner's ex-wife's cousin. Turns out the previous owner was abusive to both his wife and kids, and after she left with them fell into a very deep depression. That's the example of an emotional signature.


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## Ty Vulpine (Apr 11, 2007)

I do, because I have actually seen a ghost.


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## foxy (Apr 11, 2007)

TyVulpine said:
			
		

> I do, because I have actually seen a ghost.


An invisible thing can not have a color.


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## Aikon (Apr 11, 2007)

I used to be a firm believer is ghosts but recently I started to think otherwise.Â Â I have had unexplained things happen to me both at my current house and my mom's when I was a kid but, maybe I was just imagining things?

Nonetheless, here's an interesting photo I took of my house a couple of years ago.Â Â I got a new camera and a storm was forming, and thought I'd get a couple shots of the clouds.Â Â I also took a shot of the back of my house.Â Â I was going through these photos the other night and I came across this one, and I noticed something up in the top-middle window.Â Â It's a faint yet clear depiction of someone's face!Â Â I have nothing to gain or loose by faking a picture, take it with a grain of salt if you want... I'm not even saying it is a ghost.Â Â But if it's just a weird illusion, it's an interesting one that fits this thread.

[attachment=1201]


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## Dragoneer (Apr 11, 2007)

I only believe in spoons.


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## Emerson (Apr 11, 2007)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> I only believe in spoons.



YOU ARE SO GULLIBLE.


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## Aikon (Apr 11, 2007)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> I only believe in spoons.



Spoons cannot theoretically exist because their atomic infastructure clearly doesn't support the inverse reaction of fissionary molecular synthesis.

Forks on the other hand...


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## foxy (Apr 11, 2007)

Aikon said:
			
		

> I used to be a firm believer is ghosts but recently I started to think otherwise.Â Â I have had unexplained things happen to me both at my current house and my mom's when I was a kid but, maybe I was just imagining things?
> 
> Nonetheless, here's an interesting photo I took of my house a couple of years ago.Â Â I got a new camera and a storm was forming, and thought I'd get a couple shots of the clouds.Â Â I also took a shot of the back of my house.Â Â I was going through these photos the other night and I came across this one, and I noticed something up in the top-middle window.Â Â It's a faint yet clear depiction of someone's face!Â Â I have nothing to gain or loose by faking a picture, take it with a grain of salt if you want... I'm not even saying it is a ghost.Â Â But if it's just a weird illusion, it's an interesting one that fits this thread.


I want to see.


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## yak (Apr 11, 2007)

Even if they don't exist, i'd like to think that they do.


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## Icarus (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm a beginner Psionist.
My learnings don't really work or have an understandment without a spirit.


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## Rhainor (Apr 11, 2007)

"Understandment"?  Are you making up words again?  You know what the shrink said about doing that...


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 11, 2007)

foxy wants to see my turtle and Aikon's spirit, we got people seeing spoons, and I can't see shit.

And you can quote me on that.


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## Ty Vulpine (Apr 11, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> TyVulpine said:
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> ...



It was solid white. I had stayed home from school, because I wasn't feeling well. I had laid down in the living room, watching The Price Is Right. I looked up at our ceiling fan, and saw a small (not more than 2 inches tall) human-shaped thing, and it was dancing rapidly in place (almost like it was actually running in place) on one of the fan arms(?). It looked down at me, then leapt up and disappeared into the ceiling.


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## Natsumi (Apr 11, 2007)

TyVulpine said:
			
		

> foxy said:
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*I've seen them too. They don't have color per se.. Actually, ghosts can take on shapes and can have white or gray coloring. There's a good book called "Grave's End" that you can read. It's a true story about this woman who moved into a haunted house and had to experience and see ghosts, even though she wasn't even a believer. Anyways, I believe they exist, and I have seen them.*


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## foxy (Apr 11, 2007)

P1. An invisible thing can not have a color
P2. White is the achromatic color of maximum lightness
P3. An invisible thing can not be white, from 1 and 2
C1. An invisible luminous being can not exist.


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## Icarus (Apr 11, 2007)

Rhainor said:
			
		

> "Understandment"?  Are you making up words again?  You know what the shrink said about doing that...



...that's not a word? :0


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 11, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> P1. An invisible thing can not have a color
> P2. White is the achromatic color of maximum lightness
> P3. An invisible thing can not be white, from 1 and 2
> C1. An invisible luminous being can not exist.









Actually, light can be bent around anything resulting in it being invisible. Does it not have color simply because it is invisible? No, invisible is not the absense of color, it is the absense of visibility. If a blue car is parked around the corner, it is invisible to me. But it is still a blue car.


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 11, 2007)

Icarus said:
			
		

> Rhainor said:
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Not according to this thing.


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## foxy (Apr 11, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> No, invisible is not the absense of color, it is the absense of visibility.


I agree.

P1. An invisible thing cannot be visible.



> If a blue car is parked around the corner,


Therefore...

P2. Blue is a visible color.



> it is invisible to me.


Then...

P3. An invisible thing cannot be blue, from 1 and 2



> But it is still a blue car.


So...

C1. An invisible blue car cannot be visible.

In other words, those who claim to have *seen* a white immaterial ghost are lying.


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 11, 2007)

foxy, have you ever heard of hallucinating? it's possible to say you saw something that in fact wasn't there and not be making it up, you know. I know when I get sleep paralysis, the sounds and visions I experience aren't really there, but I'm sure as hell not lying about what I experienced.


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## foxy (Apr 11, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> foxy, have you ever heard of hallucinating? it's possible to say you saw something that in fact wasn't there and not be making it up, you know. I know when I get sleep paralysis, the sounds and visions I experience aren't really there, but I'm sure as hell not lying about what I experienced.


The reaction of hallucination has on your body is material/objective, the actual stimuli on the senses is material/objective. If we said the hallucinations were wholely material then we'd have to say the god/soul was material, and quite clearly it is not. Therefore the actual vision, dream, the backbone of the hallucination, is subjective/immaterial non-existent thus it can only reside in the subjective = aberration, apparition, delusion, dream, fantasy, hallucination, head trip, illusion, imagination, mirage, phantasm, phantasmagoria, phantom, pink elephant, pipe dream, trip, vision, wraith, realm.


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 11, 2007)

Did you even read what I said? I _know_ whatever causes it has to be material in some way, but what I think I'm seeing and hearing isn't. It doesn't mean I don't still experience it.


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## Rilvor (Apr 11, 2007)

You can't prove something exists without physical proof, but you also cannot prove something does not exist.


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## foxy (Apr 11, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> but what I think I'm seeing and hearing isn't. It doesn't mean I don't still experience it.


The self-concious mind is an abstract concept which derives its apparent existence purely from an individual's memory of his own past from this he constantly re-invents himself, and re-constructs his identity. What you think of as a mind is just a feeling and a picture in your head which is a composite map of all your past living experiences. The memory which records these experiences is based on material physico-chemical brain circuitry,-therefore memory, self-conciousness, and self-identity, and mind are all a product of memory.





> but you also cannot prove something does not exist.


I claim that there is a teapot orbiting sirius. Now I lean back and say to you: "Now go on and proof that I'm wrong". Laughable? Yes, absolutely. Normally, no one would take that claim serious.


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 11, 2007)

foxy stop ripping off The Matrix the Wachowski brothers are gonna sue FA :-(


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## Ty Vulpine (Apr 12, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> foxy, have you ever heard of hallucinating? it's possible to say you saw something that in fact wasn't there and not be making it up, you know. I know when I get sleep paralysis, the sounds and visions I experience aren't really there, but I'm sure as hell not lying about what I experienced.



I know what I saw was real, and nothing can ever convince me otherwise. (And if you are talking to me, please stop calling me 'foxy', okay WOLFY?)


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## Wolf-Bone (Apr 12, 2007)

Uh, I ain't talking to you, I'm talking to FOXY. You know, the one named foxy?


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## kitetsu (Apr 12, 2007)

I won't say shit until i see a ghost for myself.

Until then, OH LOOK, A CROSSDRESSING PHANTOM!!


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## Ty Vulpine (Apr 12, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> Uh, I ain't talking to you, I'm talking to FOXY. You know, the one named foxy?



I apology then. I assumed you meant me by "foxy" (since Vulpine means fox).


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 12, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> P1. An invisible thing cannot be visible.
> P2. Blue is a visible color.
> P3. An invisible thing cannot be blue, from 1 and 2
> C1. An invisible blue car cannot be visible.



Who said it was immaterial? But let's show the truly logical proof:

I have a car and it's blue
C * B
C
B

If I can't see the car it's invisible
~S > I

I can't see the car
M * ~S
M
~S

Therefore it's invisible to me:
I

The color blue is actually an independent variable and has no bearing on whether the car is visible to me or not.


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## foxy (Apr 13, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> I have a car and it's blue
> C * B
> C
> B


1. Car would be blue if they reflected blue electromagnetic radiation (i.e., light).



			
				Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> If I can't see the car it's invisible
> ~S > I


2. However, in order to be invisible, the car would reflect no electromagnetic radiation.



			
				Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> I can't see the car
> M * ~S
> M
> ~S


3. Therefore, the term "invisible blue car" is self contradictory.
According the Law of noncontradiction.



			
				Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> Therefore it's invisible to me:
> I


4. Therefore, we know absolutely that it could not exist.



			
				Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> The color blue is actually an independent variable and has no bearing on whether the car is visible to me or not.


Show me something that is invisible and visible at the same time!
Show me a no-color color.

Syllogism:

P1. An invisible thing cannot be visible.
P2. Colors are visible.
C1. An invisible thing cannot have a color. from P1 and P2
---------------------------------------
C1. An invisible thing cannot have a color.
P3. Blue is a color.
P4. An invisible thing cannot be blue, from C1 and P3
C2. An invisible blue thing can not exist.


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 14, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Rostam The Grey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you realize that you are basically stating nothing can be invisible??? 

The definition of invisible is: 
1. Impossible to see; not visible: Air is invisible.
2. Not accessible to view; hidden: mountain peaks invisible in the fog.
3. Not easily noticed or detected; inconspicuous: "The poor are politically invisible" Michael Harrington.
4. Not published in financial statements: an invisible asset.

Based on both 2 and 3 a color can be invisible. A blue car can be hidden from your view and it can not be easily detected or noticed. You are arguing for definition 1. Here is an article on new research into invisibility (article). Basically you can put anything inside the 'cloak' and it will be invisible. So what you are saying is that a blue car cannot be placed in the cloak. Or a blue car placed in the cloak will come out invisible on the other side....


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## yak (Apr 14, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism


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## foxy (Apr 14, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> Do you realize that you are basically stating nothing can be invisible???









 <--- If this is an orange.





 <--- Then this is an invisible orange?


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## foxy (Apr 14, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> Based on both 2 and 3 a color can be invisible. A blue car can be hidden from your view and it can not be easily detected or noticed. You are arguing for definition 1. Here is an article on new research into invisibility (article). Basically you can put anything inside the 'cloak' and it will be invisible. So what you are saying is that a blue car cannot be placed in the cloak. Or a blue car placed in the cloak will come out invisible on the other side....


As you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja_fuZyHDuk

The cloak reflect 1 electromagnetic radiation.
The cloak appears to be ''invisible'' but still visible by 1.

It's like giving an opacity of 1% of my orange:





 <--- But it's still visible!


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## 1337intellect (Apr 14, 2007)

[size=x-small]This isn't a question of visibility or invisibility, I know numerous people to whom spirits are visible, and a few to whom they aren't visible, but audible.... They're _spiritual_ not "invisible".[/size]


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## foxy (Apr 15, 2007)

1337intellect said:
			
		

> [size=x-small]This isn't a question of visibility or invisibility, I know numerous people to whom spirits are visible, and a few to whom they aren't visible, but audible.... They're _spiritual_ not "invisible".[/size]


I once met a woman who claimed that Jesus was white (Caucasian).
How did she know? She claimed to have seen photographs of him.
The point is that people are crazy, and religious people are especially crazy.

How about:

1) Sees things that aren't there.
2) Claims to have special powers or contacts.
3) People who see things that aren't there and claim to have special powers and contacts are considered nuts.
4) She is nuts.

Hey, wikipedia, what do you thinK?

~~~
*Electronic voice phenomena (EVP)* are anomalous voice or voice-like sounds captured on a variety of recorded media.[1][2] Typically they are brief, the length of a word or short phrase, though longer examples are not unknown.[3] As with other paranormal phenomena, EVP and the principles behind it are disputed.[4] and attempts to replicate it under laboratory conditions have so far been unsuccessful. Results of various EVP experiments have been published, but no literature supporting the phenomena has appeared in mainstream peer review scientific journals.[5]
~~~

Most of the voices didn't sound supernatural at all. The voices that were most clear sounded much too modern in their accent. They all just sound like poor recordings of people... nothing special. I've seen these ghost hunters on TV using EVP and the most they got was a little bit of noise that sounds kind of like a word.


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## 1337intellect (Apr 15, 2007)

[size=x-small]Please tell me you didn't just use Ghost Hunters as though it were even applicable. Even I know that this isn't true. And have you ever considered that not having conclusive evidence isn't the same as impossibility.[/size]


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## thegreathamster (Apr 15, 2007)

Spirits my arse. :roll:


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## foxy (Apr 15, 2007)

1337intellect said:
			
		

> [size=x-small]And have you ever considered that not having conclusive evidence isn't the same as impossibility.[/size]


Those "voices in your head" claiming to be God can now be cured with a pill.


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## thegreathamster (Apr 15, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> 1337intellect said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 15, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> The cloak reflect 1 electromagnetic radiation.
> The cloak appears to be ''invisible'' but still visible by 1.
> 
> It's like giving an opacity of 1% of my orange:
> ...



LOL, do you realize that you have prooven yourself wrong? Even if it isn't visible, the orange is still orange. You're giving the tree in the woods argument. You're basically saying that if no one is there to hear the tree fall, it doesn't make any noise.


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## foxy (Apr 15, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> LOL, do you realize that you have prooven yourself wrong? Even if it isn't visible, the orange is still orange. You're giving the tree in the woods argument. You're basically saying that if no one is there to hear the tree fall, it doesn't make any noise.


Umm... no.

If i give my orange 0% opacity. It's no longer an orange anymore, it's nothing more than just an alpha image. The orange is vanished no matter how hard you look at it:





 <--- Blank! Therefore, the term "invisible orange" is self contradictory.


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 15, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Umm... no.
> 
> If i give my orange 0% opacity. It's no longer an orange anymore, it's nothing more than just an alpha image. The orange is vanished no matter how hard you look at it:
> 
> ...



So if I white out a picture of an orange, the orange is no longer orange?


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## Danius (Apr 15, 2007)

RenegadeFox said:
			
		

> well i believe there is, and you can call me crazy if you wish, for i have had several encounters, most involving the moving of objects.





> Yes, and I've had firsthand experience with spirits/ghosts/paranormal*  16votes,   34.04%



I think it's very interesting that 34% of the beings here have had first-hand experiences.

Are 34% of the people here insane, hollucinating nut-cases who need to be drugged by psychiatrists??? Nope, I wouldn't say so.


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## ceacar99 (Apr 15, 2007)

oh i believe spirits exist, though not like ghost hunters ghosts or whatever. from what ive seen on the last few pages alot of you guys just dont believe in spirits and thats fine.

see, my beliefs in spirits comes from my very taoist spirituality. i believe in ki/chi and spiritual energy flows. this stems primarily through my experiences in the martial arts but not solely(like my mother is highly educated in the art of rei ki an art of feeling energy flows). my spirituality gives me strength, and helps guide me.

one of my fundamental beleifs is that there are ambiant spirits around us. now i was born a mystic, someone who has to one degree or another his/her third eye chakra permenantly wedged open. basically my spiritual "ears" are allways listening. in waking moments this means i have uncanny intuition, in mediation and sleep it means i can be visited by strange visions and dreams. its strange hearing wispers while your sleeping lightly and your in a room completely locked tight...

anyway i dont believe any of the spiritual forces around us currently have the strength to manafest themselves on the physical plain. think of it this way. e=mc2. spirits are energy, if they were to move a chair for example they(in my mind) would have to have enough energy to equate the chair's  "energy" (do e=mc2 in reverse with the chair) and exeed all the forces acting on it, it also seems to me that the spirit would ahve to have substanial extra energy to try to manafest. basically no spirit ive ever heard of could possibly throw things around...

its also along those lines the reasoning of why i dont believe that telekinetics(moving/altering things with your mind or soul) are possible along with spiritual healing. spiritual feeling is about the limit of extra body spirituality with how much energy we can exert. HOWEVER, i do believe spiritual forces can be exerted to enhance the vessal. focusing energy at chakra and performing a ki hap can enhance strength and power, but it cannot strike outside the body... well anyway, alot of this is not quite on topic but tahts my mentality...


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## foxy (Apr 15, 2007)

ceacar99 said:
			
		

> spirits are energy


P1. Spirits are intangible.
P2. Energy are tangible.
C1. Spirits cannot be Energy.





			
				Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> So if I white out a picture of an orange, the orange is no longer orange?


- If i paint the orange in white, It' a white orange.
- If i cover the orange with a white layer, it's a white layer.
- If i erase the orange, it's no longer an orange.





			
				ceacar99 said:
			
		

> oh i believe spirits exist, though not like ghost hunters ghosts or whatever. from what ive seen on the last few pages alot of you guys just dont believe in spirits and thats fine.
> 
> see, my beliefs in spirits comes from my very taoist spirituality. i believe in ki/chi and spiritual energy flows. this stems primarily through my experiences in the martial arts but not solely(like my mother is highly educated in the art of rei ki an art of feeling energy flows). my spirituality gives me strength, and helps guide me.
> 
> ...


You see, this rule is a consequence of the fact that nature is invariant with respect to time. The fact that if you drop a rock it falls down and it does so no matter what time of day or which day you do it, is what causes as result that energy cannot vanish.

In the short run however, there is always chance that energy pops up from nowhere and vanishes again. It is indeed related to the same thing and same cause. The point is that Energy and time are in quantum mechanics non-commutative operators and that gives rice to the heisenberg's uncertainty principle and that means that it is impossible to state exactly how much energy is present in a system within a short time frame.

If you use a time duration T to measure some energy then you will have an uncertainty DT to that time duration and an uncertainty DE to that energy E so that the true energy level TE is somewhere in the range of E - DE <= TE <= E + DE then DT * DE >= h / 2pi

where h is Planck's constant and pi = 3.1415926535....

This places a lower limit on the uncertainty so the more accurate you measure the time the more uncertainty you have on the energy. Since you cannot establish the energy level TE exactly it follows that energy can pop up and vanish during this time duration without violating any physical laws as long as the amount popping up and vanishing does not exceed DE.

In the long run, with a long duration of DT the value of DE can be very small and so you can make a very bold claim and state that the energy will not appear or vanish or rather that the mount appearing and the amount vanishing is just about the same so that in sum total they amount to 0.

It should be noted that this is "energy" as the word is used in physics. The "infinite levels of energy" or "chi energy" and other mumbo jumbo that mysitcs and crackpots talk about has nothing to do with it.


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 16, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Rostam The Grey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOLZ! So if I take a picture of an orange and then white it out, the orange no longer exists? I think you're digging yourself a deeper hole.


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## Orlith Nemeth (Apr 16, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> ceacar99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so your saying you can make thinks invisible by covering them up or wahtever, but no one else can? Thats what I'm picking up here. Someone else can't see a blue car, but its not invisible to them. You can't see the orange, but now its invisible.


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## foxy (Apr 16, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> LOLZ! So if I take a picture of an orange and then white it out, the orange no longer exists? I think you're digging yourself a deeper hole.








 <--- Hey guys ! this is an invisible blue car !!!


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## Orlith Nemeth (Apr 16, 2007)

well look at that, right beside your invisible orange!


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## foxy (Apr 16, 2007)

Orlith Nemeth said:
			
		

> well look at that, right beside your invisible orange!



Wait a minute, how do you know there's an orange and not a blue car on the other side of the white layer ?


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 16, 2007)

No, the bluei car is invisible to us. Where invisible is the opposite of visible. Everything I cannot see at the moment, is invisible to me. in = not. Invisible = not visible. I don't know of any simpler way to put it?


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## foxy (Apr 16, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> No, the bluei car is invisible to us. Where invisible is the opposite of visible. Everything I cannot see at the moment, is invisible to me. in = not. Invisible = not visible. I don't know of any simpler way to put it?


So everywhere you go there's an ''invisible pink unicorn'' ?

Your problem is: ''If you can't see it, it's invisible''. (babies learn object permanence about when peek-a-boo stops being fun for them) Am I invisible? if so, your nuts, cause I got witnesses right here. If not, then according to your proof, you should be able to describe the cloths I am wearing... go ahead...


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## ceacar99 (Apr 16, 2007)

foxy, i stated things as I saw it, not how you saw it . one of the biggest problems is that alot of people when talking about this spirituality stuff uses language that makes it seem as if the other people are wrong.

now lets talk about my spirituality. i believe in ki, the energy flows within every living thing. this energy when full and radiant helps make a full and radiant body and so on. in terms of the martial arts its the primary force of the best artists. a "kihap"(the hiyah!!! thing) is a spiritual strike drawing from the will chakra in the stomach. its more of a sharp gutteral yell that gives a burst of spiritual energy, or at least that is what WE beleive. another form of strike is drawing from the will chakra and pulling the energy into a limb via willfull meditative exersises. people who have learned to do this report a tingleing sensation in the limb of choice before the energy is exerted. 

now lets talk about what skeptics have commanly said... 1: "that feeling in your arm is because your focusing on it so much and not some magical energy". my simple responce is that it is that focusing on my arm that allows me to break through several bricks with my bare hands without even a scratch on myself. 2: "that ki hap is only a placebo effect, it doenst actually inpart any spiritual energy". simple answer, power is power. if im more powerfull because of it then it does not matter what is causing the power in truth only that i receave the power.

in the end, people like foxy can laugh and scoff at my beleifs(go ahead ) but the truth is that they DO give me power. my spirituality is real, i gain power from it and it doesnt matter if the power is from the source that i believe in or if its just placebo. either way ki haps impart me with spirit and energy allowing me to do great things, chakra focus allows me to strike hard and be struck with lessened damage and rei ki spiritual feeling allows me to feel the world around me without eyes and be more aware of the feelings of others. 

basically athiests and non spiritualists can laugh at the spirituality of others but this spirituality is here for a reason, it gives us great strength and applied correctly and it doesnt really matter if its true or not or if it can be proven or not in the realm of physical science...


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## foxy (Apr 16, 2007)

ceacar99 said:
			
		

> foxy, i stated things as I saw it, not how you saw it . one of the biggest problems is that alot of people when talking about this spirituality stuff uses language that makes it seem as if the other people are wrong.
> 
> now lets talk about my spirituality. i believe in ki, the energy flows within every living thing. this energy when full and radiant helps make a full and radiant body and so on. in terms of the martial arts its the primary force of the best artists. a "kihap"(the hiyah!!! thing) is a spiritual strike drawing from the will chakra in the stomach. its more of a sharp gutteral yell that gives a burst of spiritual energy, or at least that is what WE beleive. another form of strike is drawing from the will chakra and pulling the energy into a limb via willfull meditative exersises. people who have learned to do this report a tingleing sensation in the limb of choice before the energy is exerted.
> 
> ...


Why should I believe that there is anything outside this physical universe, Overcomer? So far the evidence is becoming all too clear that religious experience is NOTHING but brain chemistry.

Why would I even want to consider the existence of such an alleged entity (-ies?)? Sure the experience "feels good" and because it does people can experience an enhanced quality of life, but that wouldn't mean that any entity was necessarily involved. The mere existence of the physiology itself could simply provide the benefit (sense of well-being, etc.) when it is chemically activated and that is why it has persisted (people who activate these circuits via ritual, mediation, drugs, etc. felt better, hence a relief from stress, and therefore outlived those who didn't).


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## Jelly (Apr 16, 2007)

Danius said:
			
		

> RenegadeFox said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pfft. If you think that that's solid evidence that "ooooo ghooososttsss.!"

I guess that's your bag.

However, just to put out this little story. I went to a con last year and went to an awful lecture about wolf spirituality. I recall this being said by a therian (no offense to you therians out there): "I've heard so many stories of people having past life experiences as animals it's impossible not to believe [that people are reincarnated animals]!" Amongst all the self-love (/abuse) and the really, really bad teeth a 15 year old girl (who had to get parents permission to attend the con) said: "don't any of you wonder about the fact that your animals are exclusive to your culture?" Which, in turn received: "I WAS A WOLF BEFORE IT WAS ON TV A LOT." That wonderful rebuttal aside, she makes a really good point.
[She also went on with: "none of you are animals that you had never seen until later in life. Every one of you is an animal that you had heard of constantly through where you were from and how you grew up."]

Ghosts and myths like that have been with us forever. We shouldn't be amazed that people will continue to have these experiences (which are undoubtedly similar). Society reinforces through myth and story that ghosts possibly exist, it's part of our cultural heritage.

You're right, though...psychiatry can be a very dangerous thing.

(PS: Don't believe in ghosts.)


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## ceacar99 (Apr 16, 2007)

foxy, "i think therefore i am. i believe therefore i am strong" -ceacar99

i honestly dont care if what i feel is a bunch of impulses. i am not the best in martial arts but i have more medals than anyone else in my school, those who have bested me tend to have even more spirituality than me. OUR STRENGTH COMES FROM THAT. it doesnt matter if im not realy strikeing you with ki, it matters that i believe so absolutely that i do not hold back and push myself beyond the limits of other people. if its not real then its a placebo, and that is still power. my faith is power, my faith is strength, thats why i believe in it. 

furthermore with that spirituality comes a moral code, every set of spirituality has it and i have my own. some people say "well that moral code only came out of your fear for being punished after death!", but if your someone like me who doesnt believe in heaven and hell or even karma what is there to form a moral code? it quite simply put is my spiritual understanding of the world and how it must work in my mind. even though i never believe i'll be punished my sprituality has a developed a code for me, that code outlines what i believe i must do before i die and what i understand to be the function of the world. 

so what if you believe my spirituality is a bunch of shit? i strike harder, move faster and have more courage from it! i best others who have none and my spirituallity guides me to ballence. i seek the truth in all things from it, and understand how everything in this world is needed, the violence and the love. my faith is not out of some need to believe in a thiestic being but because it guides me, it drives me, it makes me a better man and it gives me great strength that most athiests i have met cannot match.

dont get me wrong im not trying to "convert" you. you can believe what you will, but i will have you understand why i believe and because you understand why i believe hopefully you'll put two and two together and understand that i likely will never cease to believe.


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## foxy (Apr 16, 2007)

ceacar99 said:
			
		

> foxy, "i think therefore i am. i believe therefore i am strong" -ceacar99


Rene Descartes says "I think therefore I am". However, who is this "I" doing the thinking? Is thinking at all meaningful if you do not assume that the one thinking actually exists? As such the statement in a more elborate but logically more acceptable way simply states:

"Assuming I exist and that I am capable of thinking and then further assume that I am actually thinking then I can conclude I exist" or P & Q => P which isn't really nearly as deep as Descartes thought it was.

On the whole it is therefore a philosophical and intellectual cul-de-sac that lead nowhere and is essentially useless as basic premise for anything at all.

Rather try "I exist" as given and start from there. You can then in the next step figure out that "I think" is also a reasonable assumption but because you already started with "I exist" it is not interesting that you can conclude that you exist from these assumptions.

Rather try to find other interesting conclusions from it and you may have something going.





> furthermore with that spirituality comes a moral code, every set of spirituality has it and i have my own. some people say "well that moral code only came out of your fear for being punished after death!", but if your someone like me who doesnt believe in heaven and hell or even karma what is there to form a moral code? it quite simply put is my spiritual understanding of the world and how it must work in my mind. even though i never believe i'll be punished my sprituality has a developed a code for me, that code outlines what i believe i must do before i die and what i understand to be the function of the world.


Bascially since gods are made up by people to lend magical credibility and certainty to morals simply made up by people in the first place---gods are just mythological ventriloquist dummies. People somehow decide what rules and limitations that they want placed on behavior then ascribe it to a magical being. It doesn't make thinking any easier in fact, it simply allows others to accept it without thinking and allows the originator to sell it more easily.

So if humans are deciding anyway to begin with---no mystery how people decide. They decide by thinking and dialogue and choosing their ethics.

In my mind "ethics" represent codes grounded in thinking/openness. "Morals" are codes grounded in superstition/fear.


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## ceacar99 (Apr 16, 2007)

, foxy i have a feeling im just going to love conversations with you in the future... lol, before responding to that little bit i'll have to honor it with some thought .


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## 1337intellect (Apr 16, 2007)

I have two friends, both of which see spirits, which have experienced visual/audial contact with the exact same spirit, simuletaneously. Is this proof enough to you, or do wish to argue for telepathicly shared psychotic fantasies?


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 16, 2007)

At my school, there are so many ghosts the school has actually hired paranormal experts to come check it out. Very level headed people have seen the same spirit...and we have a ghost in our dorm that professors have verified that they've seen her death certificate - she burned alive in this dorm. We have a confederate soldier in our theatre building...and a rich bastard lived on a house on campus still haunts it.


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## DPAK (Apr 16, 2007)

I've never had any personal experiences, but my highschool is haunted... supposedly. The nightcrew always have to deal with this group of ghost kids that run down the hall and write stuff on the bathroom stalls.

And my Chemistry teacher had a paranormal experience over the weekend. He was tilling someone's yard when he stopped for a secondand looked inside their house. A little girl was riding a tricycle on the second floor and she stopped to look out the window. She was smiling very widely and waved at my Chem. teacher and he waved back. He said it felt like she was telling him, "It's okay. It's okay. I fine now." Later in the day, one of the neighbors stopped him and asked if he could do their yard as well. They had a little conversation and he brought up the fact that he thought that the little girl in the house was just adorable. The neighbor asked him to describe her and after he did, the neighbor kind of freaked out. They told him that the owner's of the house only had one child who had died a little over a year ago because she went down the steps on her trike and broke her neck. Creepy, huh?


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## Orlith Nemeth (Apr 17, 2007)

Ahh the school ghost! We had one, our school was built beside a cemetary so I'm very surprised we only had one.Â Â he lived in the theater, and would generly cause mischeif, nocking things over moving things and whatnot.Â Â He was actually a murderer i think that was hung on site before the school was built and has haunted it ever sice (and the schools over 100 years old.. so hes been there a while now) his name was/is Albert.


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## foxy (Apr 17, 2007)

Why don't Atheists ever see them? or are haunted by them?
Why are Christians or religious people only afflicted with these pesky demons talking to them?


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 17, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Why don't Atheists ever see them? or are haunted by them?
> Why are Christians or religious people only afflicted with these pesky demons talking to them?



*Why does Foxy assume she knows every atheist and religious person there is?
*On that note, why does she assume she fucking knows everything?


For the record? One of the professors at my school who saw one of the ghosts is an atheist. Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## foxy (Apr 17, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> *Why does Foxy assume she knows every atheist and religious person there is?


If i see a ghost, I'll become a believer.


			
				LoboRoo said:
			
		

> *On that note, why does she assume she fucking knows everything?


_Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence._ - Carl Sagan





			
				LoboRoo said:
			
		

> One of the professors at my school who saw one of the ghosts is an atheist.


Did he lose his atheism after the event ?
If yes, you cannot claim that he's an atheist.
If no, he's just making fun of you.


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 17, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Rostam The Grey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are invisible to me because I cannot see you, because you are invisible to me I cannot describe your clothes. But you can see the color of your clothes. If you're wearing clothes?


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## Orlith Nemeth (Apr 17, 2007)

I'd like to take this time to point out that my _Biology Professor_ (oh noes! a biology professor! you mean she has a PhD? In Biology? why yes, yes i do!) Stated to us on our very first day of class that she is a devout Christian. Just thought I'd point that out.


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## DPAK (Apr 17, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Why don't Atheists ever see them? or are haunted by them?
> Why are Christians or religious people only afflicted with these pesky demons talking to them?



*My Chemistry teacher doesn't believe in ghosts. Still refuses too even after his experience last week. He just merely says "Chemistry can't explain everything.
*Christians/Religious people aren't the only ones who have experiences with them. My previous stepdad believed in them for YEARS before he became a Christian.

If you had proof to support your claims, then we could debate it.


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> You are invisible to me because I cannot see you, because you are invisible to me I cannot describe your clothes. But you can see the color of your clothes. If you're wearing clothes?


Plus the car is still blue when the lights are out. Like at night, on a moonless night, with a heavy overcast, and you are wearing very dark sun glasses indoors with the lights out. Plus you are blind. Car is still there and its still blue.





			
				Orlith Nemeth said:
			
		

> On my first day of my University level Biology class my Professer, yes Professor a woman who went thought a great deal of school to her her PhD in Biology none the less, told us she is a devote Christian. Science dosn't always trump religion, nor religion trump science, they can go hand in hand. So just let us beleive what we wish to beleive, and we'll let you not-beleive in whatever you don't wish to beleive in.


Is this your opinion or hers? Either way I disagree that science and religion can co-exist. It's not really a matter of what you wish to believe. Is it even possible to believe something simply because you wish to believe it?

The fundamental difference between science and religion is that religion requires faith and science requires evidence. Unfortunately, that difference is such a vast gulf that it makes any true accommodation between the two pretty much impossible. 

At best, the believer who also wants to take science seriously must compartmentalize; applying requirements of evidence for most things, but ignoring such a requirement for issues crucial to their faith. Such a world view tends to be self inconsistent and ultimately incoherent.





			
				DPAK said:
			
		

> *My Chemistry teacher doesn't believe in ghosts. Still refuses too even after his experience last week. He just merely says "Chemistry can't explain everything.


Maybe he needs a friend ? We all know that science can't explain everything, like friendship.


			
				DPAK said:
			
		

> *Christians/Religious people aren't the only ones who have experiences with them. My previous stepdad believed in them for YEARS before he became a Christian.


I agree, people can change ther mind by just watching a movie. Maybe he watched to much horror movies or TV evangelical programs.

Yes, fear is one of the most powerfull reasons to believe in god.

Â Â Â Â * The fear that god might exist and will punish you for not believing that he exists,
Â Â Â Â * the fear that you will get ostracized if you don't believe what your "peer pressure group" believes,
Â Â Â Â * the fear that there is no moral when god doesn't exist,
Â Â Â Â * the fear that there is no meaning in live when god doesn't exist.

It's like those friday 13th movies...


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Either way I disagree that science and religion can co-exist. It's not really a matter of what you wish to believe. Is it even possible to believe something simply because you wish to believe it?



You know, you have a right to believe what you want. But you have no right to tell others what they have to believe.Â Â You don't know everything - from what I can tell, you know very little. So stop acting like you're god. There are always going to be people who believe differently from you. (In your case, a LOT of people.) You have no right to say your belief is right and everyone else's is wrong.

You might even want to consider looking at your own views again *gasp* because if you hadn't noticed....
1. No one here likes you and
2. No one here agrees with you.


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> [*]Why don't Atheists ever see them? or are haunted by them?
> [*]Why are Christians or religious people only afflicted with these pesky demons talking to them?[/list]



For someone who is apparently a Master Debater *snerksnerk*, you sure do fall victim to the basic logical fallacy of assuming that what you think is true everywhere and with everyone.

Why can't you just let people enjoy their conversations, even if you do think they're stupid? A snarky "Wow, you're crazy" comment here and there is one thing. But you just _never shut up._

I mean, seriously. Do you think anyone here actually gives a shit about your lists numerating exactly why EVERYONE is wrong? Does anyone actually even _read_ them? Prolly not.


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

Hey, I got a good stupid quote out of that rant.


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> Hey, I got a good stupid quote out of that rant.



I had one from her once. But it was too long, so I killed it. Screencapped it though. :3


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## Orlith Nemeth (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Orlith Nemeth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do you mean is that my opinion or hers? I just told you, _she told us herself_ she is a devote christian! read before contradicting please, or dont reply at all.


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

Orlith Nemeth said:
			
		

> What do you mean is that my opinion or hers? I just told you, _she told us herself_ she is a devote christian! read before contradicting please, or dont reply at all.


Christianity is not necessarily incompatable with Evolutionary Biology.

Please believe what you wish, but leave the theist beliefs that conflict with scientific research and discovery at the door, when you are doing scientific research.


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)




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## DPAK (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Plus the car is still blue when the lights are out. Like at night, on a moonless night, with a heavy overcast, and you are wearing very dark sun glasses indoors with the lights out. Plus you are blind. Car is still there and its still blue.



Actually, if you're blind you really don't know what color the car is. You have to BELIEVE that is blue, having FAITH that whoever told you it was blue was telling you the truth. Sorry I had to throw the "F-bomb" and the "b-word" at you foxy, but you know us religious types.



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> Is this your opinion or hers? Either way I disagree that science and religion can co-exist. It's not really a matter of what you wish to believe. Is it even possible to believe something simply because you wish to believe it?



....Is this a trick question?



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> The fundamental difference between science and religion is that religion requires faith and science requires evidence. Unfortunately, that difference is such a vast gulf that it makes any true accommodation between the two pretty much impossible.
> 
> At best, the believer who also wants to take science seriously must compartmentalize; applying requirements of evidence for most things, but ignoring such a requirement for issues crucial to their faith. Such a world view tends to be self inconsistent and ultimately incoherent.



Scientists had to have FAITH in the existense of molecules and atoms before they could see them

And who says that people can't believe in religion and science? You?



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> Maybe he needs a friend ? We all know that science can't explain everything, like friendship.



Then why are you trying to explain to us that religion is wrong?



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> I agree, people can change ther mind by just watching a movie. Maybe he watched to much horror movies or TV evangelical programs.
> 
> Yes, fear is one of the most powerfull reasons to believe in god.
> 
> ...



...What does this have to do with anything? If an atheist watches a movie and is scared, does that no longer make them an atheist? (And yes, my previous stepdad WAS an atheist when he first believed in spirits and the such.)



			
				LoboRoo said:
			
		

> So stop acting like you're god.



[attempt at humor]Technically, since foxy doesn't believe in the belief of God, this comment is a complete and utter enigma. foxy will probably ignore its existance entirely, as it cannot exist, and go off on a rant. Again.[/attempt at humor]


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

DPAK said:
			
		

> Actually, if you're blind you really don't know what color the car is. You have to BELIEVE that is blue, having FAITH that whoever told you it was blue was telling you the truth. Sorry I had to throw the "F-bomb" and the "b-word" at you foxy, but you know us religious types.



WIN. WIN WIN WIN, madam.


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

> Plus the car is still blue when the lights are out. Like at night, on a moonless night, with a heavy overcast, and you are wearing very dark sun glasses indoors with the lights out. Plus you are blind. Car is still there and its still blue.


You can't see it. What ever that means. 

This is a serious hang up for a lot of people, thinking they can find answers in words and meanings. Words mean what we need them to mean. They are not magic. Probably to minds that don't have an extended vocabulary, words do seem to possess magic and power. But they do not have any inherent power or magic. They are just sounds. 

Does invisible mean you can't see it? If yes, then the blue car in the dark room in invisible. 

So what does invisible mean then? Uhm, that you can't see it? That's all, no magic.





> Scientists had to have FAITH in the existense of molecules and atoms before they could see them
> 
> And who says that people can't believe in religion and science? You?


There is evidence that atoms exists.





> Then why are you trying to explain to us that religion is wrong?


In the end, logic will only yield the answers you give it. Its not a magic machine or some great source of wisdom. Its an analysis tool. That's all. Its an argument processor. Shit in, shit out. Good in, good out. God in, god out. Its just processor that helps you decide if your argument is sound. It says nothing about the quality or reliability of the input data and its the quality of what you put in that determines the quality of what you get out. 

Its a processor that helps one organize information and decide if your decision making process is valid. It can say nothing about the quality of the information unless you include quality statements into the logic system.





> ...What does this have to do with anything? If an atheist watches a movie and is scared, does that no longer make them an atheist? (And yes, my previous stepdad WAS an atheist when he first believed in spirits and the such.)


We are all atheists of almost everything. For me is one less god.


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> > Plus the car is still blue when the lights are out. Like at night, on a moonless night, with a heavy overcast, and you are wearing very dark sun glasses indoors with the lights out. Plus you are blind. Car is still there and its still blue.
> 
> 
> You can't see it. What ever that means.



I hate to break your heart (actually, no, I'm laughing my ass off at your stupidity) but *you* said that idiotic bit about the car. 

Oh, and he said "Scientists had to have FAITH in the existense of molecules and atoms before they could see them." BEFORE. Not now. If you would actually read these comments, you wouldn't seem so stupid. We all know atoms exist. :roll:


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> "Scientists had to have FAITH in the existense of molecules and atoms before they could see them."



http://www.answers.com/faith&r=67

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.


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## DPAK (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> There is evidence that atoms exists.



I never said that there wasn't. But scientists couldn't *always *SEE them or PROVE them, now could they?



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> In the end, logic will only yield the answers you give it. Its not a magic machine or some great source of wisdom. Its an analysis tool. That's all. Its an argument processor. Shit in, shit out. Good in, good out. God in, god out. Its just processor that helps you decide if your argument is sound. It says nothing about the quality or reliability of the input data and its the quality of what you put in that determines the quality of what you get out.
> 
> Its a processor that helps one organize information and decide if your decision making process is valid. It can say nothing about the quality of the information unless you include quality statements into the logic system.



You and your "logic machine" refuse to yield results that are understandable and/or agreeable to others. You may want to have it checked out.



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> We are all atheists of almost everything. For me is one less god.



"Atheism, in the broadest sense, is the absence of belief in the existence of gods or deities. Other definitions combine this absence of belief with belief in the nonexistence of God, or simply with the conscious rejection of theism."

...I'm an "ignorant" Christian. Please explain to me HOW, exactly, I am an atheist in some form or fashion?


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

Oh dear lord don't ask her to explain anything. @_@ She doesn't shut up even when we tell her she shouldn't say anything; imagine when she thinks we're actually _asking_ for her idiotic opinion.


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## DPAK (Apr 18, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> Oh dear lord don't ask her to explain anything. @_@ She doesn't shut up even when we tell her she shouldn't say anything; imagine when she thinks we're actually _asking_ for her idiotic opinion.



...Sorry. I'm just tired of her idiotic ranting. But I really am quite curious as to how a Christian can be atheist.


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

Eh, she'll probably make a long rant that doesn't make any sense and we'll never know. 

Hey Epsereth, can I put that image in my signature?


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

DPAK said:
			
		

> Please explain to me HOW, exactly, I am an atheist in some form or fashion?


You are an atheist about:

Mid-East: (169)
A, Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-'Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba'Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du'uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan

China (170):
Ba, Caishen, Chang Fei, Chang Hsien, Chang Pan, Ch'ang Tsai, Chao san-Niang, Chao T'eng-k'ang, Chen Kao, Ch'eng Huang, Cheng San-Kung, Cheng Yuan-ho, Chi Po, Chien-Ti, Chih Jih, Chih Nii, Chih Nu, Ch'ih Sung-tzu, Ching Ling Tzu, Ch'ing Lung, Chin-hua Niang-niang, Chio Yuan-Tzu, Chou Wang, Chu Niao, Chu Ying, Chuang-Mu, Chu-jung, Chun T'i, Ch'ung Ling-yu, Chung Liu, Chung-kuei, Chung-li Ch'ï¿½an, Di Jun, Fan K'uei, Fei Lien, Feng Pho-Pho, Fengbo, Fu Hsing, Fu-Hsi, Fu-Pao, Gaomei, Guan Di, Hao Ch'iu, Heng-o, Ho Po (Ping-I), Hou Chi, Hou T'u, Hsi Ling-su, Hsi Shih, Hsi Wang Mu, Hsiao Wu, Hsieh T'ien-chun, Hsien Nung, Hsi-shen, Hsu Ch'ang, Hsuan Wen-hua, Huang Ti, Huang T'ing, Huo Pu, Hu-Shen, Jen An, Jizo Bosatsu, Keng Yen-cheng, King Wan, Ko Hsien-Weng, Kuan Ti, Kuan Ti, Kuei-ku Tzu, Kuo Tzu-i, Lai Cho, Lao Lang, Lei Kung, Lei Tsu, Li Lao-chun, Li Tien, Liu Meng, Liu Pei, Lo Shen, Lo Yu, Lo-Tsu Ta-Hsien, Lu Hsing, Lung Yen, Lu-pan, Ma-Ku, Mang Chin-i, Mang Shen, Mao Meng, Men Shen, Miao Hu, Mi-lo Fo, Ming Shang, Nan-chi Hsien-weng, Niu Wang, Nu Wa, Nu-kua, Pa, Pa Cha, Pai Chung, Pai Liu-Fang, Pai Yu, P'an Niang, P'an-Chin-Lien, Pao Yuan-ch'uan, Phan Ku, P'i Chia-Ma, Pien Ho, San Kuan, Sao-ch'ing Niang, Sarudahiko, Shang Chien, Shang Ti, She chi, Shen Hsui-Chih, Shen Nung, Sheng Mu, Shih Liang, Shiu Fang, Shou-lao, Shun I Fu-jen, Sien-Tsang, Ssu-ma Hsiang-ju, Sun Pin, Sun Ssu-miao, Sung-Chiang, Tan Chu, T'ang Ming Huang, Tao Kung, T'ien Fei, Tien Hou, Tien Mu, Ti-tsang, Tsai Shen, Ts'an Nu, Ts'ang Chien, Tsao Chun, Tsao-Wang, T'shai-Shen, Tung Chun, T'ung Chung-chung, T'ung Lai-yu, Tung Lu, T'ung Ming, Tzu-ku Shen, Wa, Wang Ta-hsien, Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang, Weiwobo, Wen-ch'ang, Wu-tai Yuan-shuai, Xi Hou, Xi Wangmu, Xiu Wenyin, Yanwang, Yaoji, Yen-lo, Yen-Lo-Wang, Yi, Yu, Yu Ch'iang, Yu Huang, Yun-T'ung, Yu-Tzu, Zaoshen, Zhang Xi, , Zhinï¿½, , Zhongguei, , Zigu Shen, , Zisun, Ch'ang-O

balto slavic: (125)
Aba-khatun, Aigiarm, Ajysyt, Alkonost, Almoshi, Altan-Telgey, Ama, Anapel, As-ava, Ausaitis, Austeja, Ayt'ar, Baba Yaga (Jezi Baba), Belobog (Belun), Boldogasszony, Breksta, Bugady Musun, Chernobog (Crnobog, Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog), Cinei-new, Colleda (Koliada), Cuvto-ava, Dali, Darzu-mate, Dazhbog, Debena, Devana, Diiwica (Dilwica), Doda (Dodola), Dolya, Dragoni, Dugnai, Dunne Enin, Edji, Elena, Erce, Etugen, Falvara, The Fates, The Fatit, Gabija, Ganiklis, Giltine, Hotogov Mailgan, Hov-ava, Iarila, Isten, Ja-neb'a, Jedza, Joda-mate, Kaldas, Kaltes, Keretkun, Khadau, Khursun (Khors), Kostrubonko, Kovas, Krumine, Kupala, Kupalo, Laima, Leshy, Marina, Marzana, Matergabiae, Mat Syra Zemlya, Medeine, Menu (Menulis), Mir-Susne-Khum, Myesyats, Nastasija, (Russia) Goddess of sleep., Nelaima, Norov, Numi-Tarem, Nyia, Ora, Ot, Patollo, Patrimpas, Pereplut, Perkuno, Perun, Pikuolis, Pilnytis, Piluitus, Potrimpo, Puskaitis, Rod, Rugevit, Rultennin, Rusalki, Sakhadai-Noin, Saule, Semargl, Stribog, Sudjaje, Svantovit (Svantevit, Svitovyd), Svarazic (Svarozic, Svarogich), Tengri, Tï¿½airgin, Triglav, Ulgen (Ulgan, ï¿½lgï¿½n), Veles (Volos), Vesna, Xatel-Ekwa, Xoli-Kaltes, Yamm, Yarilo, Yarovit, Ynakhsyt, Zaria, Zeme mate, Zemyna, Ziva (Siva), Zizilia, Zonget, Zorya, Zvoruna, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zywie

Hindu (72):
Aditi, Adityas, Ambika, Ananta (Shesha), Annapurna (Annapatni), Aruna, Ashvins, Balarama, Bhairavi, Brahma, Buddha, Dakini, Devi, Dharma, Dhisana, Durga, Dyaus, Ganesa (Ganesha), Ganga (Ganges), Garuda, Gauri, Gopis, Hanuman, Hari-Hara, Hulka Devi, Jagganath, Jyeshtha, Kama, Karttikeya, Krishna, Krtya, Kubera, Kubjika, Lakshmi or Laksmi, Manasha, Manu, Maya, Meru, Nagas, Nandi, Naraka, Nataraja, Nirriti, Parjanya, Parvati, Paurnamasi, Prithivi, Purusha, Radha, Rati, Ratri, Rudra, Sanjna, Sati, Shashti, Shatala, Sitala (Satala), Skanda, Sunrta, Surya, Svasti-devi, Tvashtar, Uma, Urjani, Vach, Varuna, Vayu, Vishnu (Avatars of Vishnu: Matsya; Kurma; Varaha; Narasinha; Vamana; Parasurama; Rama; Krishna; Buddha; Kalki), Vishvakarman, Yama, Sraddha

Japan (53):
Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ama no Uzume, Ama-terasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Benten (Benzai-Ten), Bishamon, Chimata-No-Kami, Chup-Kamui, Daikoku, Ebisu, Emma-O, Fudo, Fuji, Fukurokuju, Gekka-O, Hachiman, Hettsui-No-Kami, Ho-Masubi, Hotei, Inari, Izanagi and Izanami, Jizo Bosatsu, Jurojin, Kagutsuchi, Kamado-No-Kami, Kami, Kawa-No-Kami, Kaya-Nu-Hima, Kishijoten, Kishi-Mojin, Kunitokotatchi, Marici, Monju-Bosatsu, Nai-No-Kami, No-Il Ja-Dae, O-Kuni-Nushi, Omoigane, Raiden, Shine-Tsu-Hiko, Shoten, Susa-no-wo, Tajika-no-mikoto, Tsuki-yomi, Uka no Mitanna, Uke-mochi, Uso-dori, Uzume, Wakahirume, Yainato-Hnneno-Mikoi, Yama-No-Kami, Yama-no-Karni, Yaya-Zakurai, Yuki-Onne

India (43)
Agni, Ammavaru, Asuras, Banka-Mundi, Brihaspati, Budhi Pallien, Candi, Challalamma, Chinnintamma, Devas, Dyaush, Gauri-Sankar, Grhadevi, Gujeswari, Indra, Kali, Lohasur Devi, Mayavel, Mitra, Prajapati, Puchan, Purandhi, Rakshas, Rudrani, Rumina, Samundra, Sarasvati, Savitar, Siva (Shiva), Soma, Sura, Surabhi, Tulsi, Ushas, Vata, Visvamitra, Vivasvat, Vritra, Waghai Devi, Yaparamma, Yayu, Zumiang Nui, Diti

Other Asian: (31)
Dewi Shri, Po Yan Dari, Shuzanghu, Antaboga, Yakushi Nyorai, Mulhalmoni, Tankun, Yondung Halmoni, Aryong Jong, Quan Yin , Tengri, Uminai-gami, Kamado-No-Kami, Kunitokotatchi, Giri Devi, Dewi Nawang Sasih, Brag-srin-mo, Samanta-Bhadra, Sangs-rgyas-mkhï¿½, Sengdroma, Sgeg-mo-ma, Tho-og, Ui Tango, Yum-chen-mo, Zas-ster-ma-dmar-mo, Chandra, Dyaus, Ratri, Rodasi, Vayu, Au-Co

African: 250 Gods, Demigods and First Men
Abassi , Abuk , Adu Ogyinae , Agï¿½ , Agwe , Aida Wedo , Ajalamo, Aje, Ajok, Akonadi, Akongo, Akuj, Amma, Anansi, Asase Yaa, Ashiakle, Atai , Ayaba, Aziri, Baatsi, Bayanni, Bele Alua, Bomo rambi, Bosumabla, Buk, Buku, Bumba, Bunzi, Buruku, Cagn, Candit, Cghene, Coti, Damballah-Wedo, Dan, Deng, Domfe, Dongo, Edinkira, Efï¿½, Egungun-oya, Eka Abassi, Elephant Girl Mbombe, Emayian, Enekpe, En-Kai, Eseasar, Eshu, Esu, Fa, Faran, Faro, Fatouma, Fidi Mukullu, Fon, Gleti, Gonzuole, Gï¿½, Gua, Gulu, Gunab, Hammadi, Hï¿½biesso, Iku, Ilankaka, Imana, Iruwa, Isaywa, Juok, Kazooba, Khakaba, Khonvum, Kibuka, Kintu, Lebï¿½, Leza, Libanza, Lituolone, Loko, Marwe, Massim Biambe, Mawu-Lisa (Leza), Mboze, Mebeli, Minepa, Moombi, Mukameiguru, Mukasa, Muluku, Mulungu, Mwambu, Nai, Nambi, Nana Buluku, Nanan-Bouclou, Nenaunir, Ng Ai, Nyaliep, Nyambï¿½, Nyankopon, Nyasaye, Nzame, Oboto, Obumo, Odudua-Orishala, Ogun, Olokun, Olorun, Orisha Nla, Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshe, Osun, Oya, Phebele, Pokot-Suk, Ralubumbha, Rugaba, Ruhanga, Ryangombe, Sagbata, Shagpona, Shango, Sopona, Tano, Thixo, Tilo, Tokoloshi, Tsui, Tsui'goab, Umvelinqangi, Unkulunkulu, Utixo, Wak, Wamara, Wantu Su, Wele, Were, Woto, Xevioso, Yangombi, Yemonja, Ymoa, Ymoja, Yoruba, Zambi, Zanahary , Zinkibaru,

Australian: 93 Gods, Goddesses and Places in the Dreamtime:
Alinga, Anjea, Apunga, Arahuta, Ariki, Arohirohi, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bara, Barraiya, Biame, Bila, Boaliri, Bobbi-bobbi, Bunbulama, Bunjil, Cunnembeille, Daramulum, Dilga, Djanggawul Sisters, Eingana, Erathipa, Gidja , Gnowee, Haumia, Hine Titama, Ingridi, Julana, Julunggul, Junkgowa, Karora, Kunapipi-Kalwadi-Kadjara, Lia, Madalait, Makara, Nabudi, Palpinkalare, Papa, Rangi, Rongo, Tane, Tangaroa, Tawhiri-ma-tea, Tomituka, Tu, Ungamilia, Walo, Waramurungundi, Wati Kutjarra, Wawalag Sisters, Wuluwaid, Wuragag, Wuriupranili, Wurrunna, Yhi,

Buddhism: 10 Gods and Relatives of God
Aizen-Myoo, Ajima,Dai-itoku-Myoo, Fudo-Myoo, Gozanze-Myoo, Gundari-Myoo, Hariti, Kongo-Myoo, Kujaku-Myoo, Ni-O,

Carribean: 62 Gods, Monsters and Vodun Spirits:
Agaman Nibo , Agwe, Agweta, Ah Uaynih, Aida Wedo , Atabei , Ayida , Ayizan, Azacca, Baron Samedi, Ulrich, Ellegua, Ogun, Ochosi, Chango, Itaba, Amelia, Christalline, Clairmï¿½, Clairmezinï¿½, Coatrischie, Damballah , Emanjah, Erzuli, Erzulie, Ezili, Ghede, Guabancex, Guabonito, Guamaonocon, Imanje, Karous, Laloue-diji, Legba, Loa, Loco, Maitresse Amelia , Mapiangueh, Marie-aimï¿½e, Marinette, Mombu, Marassa, Nana Buruku, Oba, Obtala, Ochu, Ochumare, Oddudua, Ogoun, Olokum, Olosa, Oshun, Oya, Philomena, Sirï¿½ne, The Diablesse, Itaba, Tsilah, Ursule, Vierge, Yemaya , Zaka,

Celtic: 166 Gods, Goddesses, Divine Kings and Pagan Saints:
Abarta, Abna, Abnoba, Aine, Airetech,Akonadi, Amaethon, Ameathon, An Cailleach, Andraste, Antenociticus, Aranrhod, Arawn, Arianrod, Artio, Badb,Balor, Banbha, Becuma, Belatucadros, Belatu-Cadros, Belenus, Beli,Belimawr, Belinus, Bendigeidfran, Bile, Blathnat, Blodeuwedd, Boann, Bodus,Bormanus, Borvo, Bran, Branwen, Bres, Brigid, Brigit, Caridwen, Carpantus,Cathbadh, Cecht, Cernach, Cernunnos, Cliodna, Cocidius, Conchobar, Condatis, Cormac,Coronus,Cosunea, Coventina, Crarus,Creidhne, Creirwy, Cu Chulainn, Cu roi, Cuda, Cuill,Cyhiraeth,Dagda, Damona, Dana, Danu, D'Aulnoy,Dea Artio, Deirdre , Dewi, Dian, Diancecht, Dis Pater, Donn, Dwyn, Dylan, Dywel,Efnisien, Elatha, Epona, Eriu, Esos, Esus, Eurymedon,Fedelma, Fergus, Finn, Fodla, Goewyn, Gog, Goibhniu, Govannon , Grainne, Greine,Gwydion, Gwynn ap Nudd, Herne, Hu'Gadarn, Keltoi,Keridwen, Kernunnos,Ler, Lir, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Lludd, Llyr, Llywy, Luchta, Lug, Lugh,Lugus, Mabinogion,Mabon, Mac Da Tho, Macha, Magog, Manannan, Manawydan, Maponos, Math, Math Ap Mathonwy, Medb, Moccos,Modron, Mogons, Morrig, Morrigan, Nabon,Nantosuelta, Naoise, Nechtan, Nedoledius,Nehalennia, Nemhain, Net,Nisien, Nodens, Noisi, Nuada, Nwywre,Oengus, Ogma, Ogmios, Oisin, Pach,Partholon, Penard Dun, Pryderi, Pwyll, Rhiannon, Rosmerta, Samhain, Segidaiacus, Sirona, Sucellus, Sulis, Taliesin, Taranis, Teutates, The Horned One,The Hunt, Treveni,Tyne, Urien, Ursula of the Silver Host, Vellaunus, Vitiris, White Lady,

Egyptian: 85 Gods, Gods Incarnate and Personified Divine Forces:
Amaunet, Amen, Amon, Amun, Anat, Anqet, Antaios, Anubis, Anuket, Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma'at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth,

Hellenes (Greek) Tradition (540 Gods, Demigods, Divine Bastards)
Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros

Native American: 711 Gods, Heroes, and Anthropomorphized Facets of Nature:
Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok', Ahnt Kai', Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua'gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-ï¿½a, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirapï¿½ , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolon-Tum, Citlalatonac, Citlalicue, Ciucoatl, Ciuteoteo, Cizin, Cliff ogre , Coatlicue, Cochimetl, Cocijo, Colel Cab, Colop U Uichkin, Copil, Coyolxauhqui, Coyopa, Coyote , Cripple Boy , Crow , Crow Woman , Cum hau, Cunawabi , Dagwanoenyent , Dahdahwat , Daldal , Deohako, Dhol , Diyin dine , Djien , Djigonasee , Dohkwibuhch , Dzalarhons , Dzalarhons, Eagentci , Eagle , Earth Shaman , Eeyeekalduk , Ehecatl, Ehlaumel , Eithinoha , Ekchuah, Enumclaw , Eototo, Esaugetuh Emissee , Esceheman, Eschetewuarha, Estanatlehi , Estasanatlehi , Estsanatlehi, Evaki, Evening Star, Ewah , Ewauna, Face , Faces of the Forests , False Faces , Famine , Fastachee , Fire Dogs , First Creator , First Man and First Woman, First Scolder , Flint Man , Flood , Flower Woman , Foot Stuck Child , Ga'an, Ga-gaah , Gahe, Galokwudzuwis , Gaoh, Gawaunduk, Geezhigo-Quae, Gendenwitha, Genetaska, Ghanan, Gitche Manitou, Glispa, Glooskap , Gluscabi , Gluskab , Gluskap, Godasiyo, Gohone , Great Seahouse, Greenmantle , Gucumatz, Gukumatz, Gunnodoyak, Gyhldeptis, Ha Wen Neyu , Hacauitz , Hacha'kyum, Hagondes , Hahgwehdiyu , Hamatsa , Hamedicu, Hanghepi Wi, Hantceiitehi , Haokah , Hastseoltoi, Hastshehogan , He'mask.as , Hen, Heyoka , Hiawatha , Hino, Hisakitaimisi, Hokhokw , Hotoru, Huehuecoyotl, Huehueteotl, Huitaca , Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hummingbird, Hun hunahpu, Hun Pic Tok, Hunab Ku, Hunahpu Utiu, Hunahpu, Hunahpu-Gutch, Hunhau, Hurakan, Iatiku And Nautsiti, Ich-kanava , Ictinike , Idliragijenget , Idlirvirisong, Igaluk , Ignirtoq , Ikanam , Iktomi , Ilamatecuhtli, Illapa, Ilyap'a, i'noGo tied , Inti, Inua , Ioskeha , Ipalnemohuani, Isakakate, Ishigaq , Isitoq , Issitoq , Ite , Itzamnï¿½, Itzananohk`u, Itzlacoliuhque, Itzli, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chebel Yax, Ixbalanque, Ixchel, Ixchup, Ixmucane, Ixpiyacoc, Ixtab, Ixtlilton, Ixtubtin, Ixzaluoh, Iya , Iyatiku , Iztaccihuatl, Iztacmixcohuatl, Jaguar Night, Jaguar Quitze, Jogah , Kaakwha , Kabun , Kabun , Kachinas, Kadlu , Ka-Ha-Si , Ka-Ha-Si , Kaik , Kaiti , Kan, Kana'ti and Selu , Kanati, Kan-u-Uayeyab, Kan-xib-yui, Kapoonis , Katsinas, Keelut , Ketchimanetowa, Ketq Skwaye, Kianto, Kigatilik , Kilya, K'in, Kinich Ahau, Kinich Kakmo, Kishelemukong , Kisin, Kitcki Manitou, Kmukamch , Kokopelli , Ko'lok , Kukulcan, Kushapatshikan , Kutni , Kutya'I , Kwakwakalanooksiwae , Kwatee , Kwekwaxa'we , Kwikumat , Kyoi , Lagua , Land Otter People , Lawalawa , Logobola , Loha, Lone Man , Long Nose , Loon , Loon Medicine , Loon Woman , Loo-wit, Macaw Woman, Macuilxochitl, Maho Peneta, Mahucutah, Makenaima , Malesk , Malina , Malinalxochi, Malsum, Malsumis , Mam, Mama Cocha, Man in moon , Manabozho , Manetuwak , Mani'to, Manitou , Mannegishi , Manu, Masaya, Masewi , Master of Life , Master Of Winds, Matshishkapeu , Mavutsinim , Mayahuel, Medeoulin , Mekala , Menahka, Meteinuwak , Metztli, Mexitl, Michabo, Mictecacihuatl, Mictlan, Mictlantecuhtli, Mikchich , Mikumwesu , Mitnal, Mixcoatl, Mongwi Kachinum , Morning Star, Motho and Mungo , Mulac, Muut , Muyingwa , Nacon, Nagenatzani, Nagi Tanka , Nagual, Nahual, Nakawï¿½, Nanabojo, Nanabozho , Nanabush, Nanahuatzin, Nanautzin, Nanih Waiya, Nankil'slas , Nanook , Naum, Negafook , Nerrivik , Nesaru, Nianque , Nishanu , Nohochacyum, Nokomis, Nootaikok , North Star, Nujalik , Nukatem , Nunne Chaha , Ocasta, Ockabewis, Odzihozo , Ohtas , Oklatabashih, Old Man , Olelbis, Omacatl, Omecihuatl, Ometecuhtli, Onatha , One Tail of Clear Hair , Oonawieh Unggi , Opochtli, Oshadagea, Owl Woman , Pah , Pah, Paiowa, Pakrokitat , Pana , Patecatl, Pautiwa, Paynal, Pemtemweha , Piasa , Pikvï¿½hahirak , Pinga , Pomola , Pot-tilter , Prairie Falcon , Ptehehincalasanwin , Pukkeenegak , Qaholom, Qakma, Qiqirn , Quaoar , Quetzalcoatl, Qumu , Quootis-hooi, Rabbit, Ragno, Raven, Raw Gums , Rukko, Sagamores , Sagapgia , Sanopi , Saynday , Sedna, Selu, Shakuru, Sharkura, Shilup Chito Osh, Shrimp house, Sila , Sint Holo , Sio humis, Sisiutl , Skan , Snallygaster , Sosondowah , South Star, Spider Woman , Sta-au , Stonecoats , Sun, Sungrey , Ta Tanka , Tabaldak , Taime , Taiowa , Talocan, Tans , Taqwus , Tarhuhyiawahku, Tarquiup Inua , Tate , Tawa, Tawiscara, Ta'xet , Tcisaki , Tecciztecatl, Tekkeitserktock, Tekkeitsertok , Telmekic , Teoyaomqui, Tepeu, Tepeyollotl, Teteoinnan, Tezcatlipoca, Thobadestchin, Thoume', Thunder , Thunder Bird , Tieholtsodi, Tihtipihin , Tirawa , Tirawa Atius, Tlacolotl, Tlahuixcalpantecuhtli, Tlaloc, Tlaltecuhtli, Tlauixcalpantecuhtli, Tlazolteotl, Tohil, Tokpela , Tonantzin , Tonatiuh, To'nenile, Tonenili , Tootega , Torngasak, Torngasoak , Trickster/Transformer , True jaguar, Tsentsa, Tsichtinako, Tsohanoai Tsonoqwa , Tsul 'Kalu , Tulugaak , Tumas , Tunkan ingan, Turquoise Boy , Twin Thunder Boys, Txamsem , Tzakol, Tzitzimime, Uazzale , Uchtsiti, Udï¿½ , Uentshukumishiteu , Ueuecoyotl, Ugly Way , Ugni , Uhepono , Uitzilopochtli, Ukat , Underwater Panthers , Unhcegila , Unipkaat , Unk, Unktomi , Untunktahe , Urcaguary, Utea , Uwashil , Vassagijik , Voltan, Wabosso , Wabun , Wachabe, Wah-Kah-Nee, Wakan , Wakanda , Wakan-Tanka, Wakinyan , Wan niomi , Wanagi , Wananikwe , Watavinewa , Water babies , Waukheon , We-gyet , Wemicus , Wendigo , Wentshukumishiteu , White Buffalo Woman, Whope , Wi , Wicahmunga , Wihmunga , Windigo, Winonah, Wisagatcak , Wisagatcak, Wishpoosh , Wiyot , Wovoka , Wuya , Xaman Ek, Xelas , Xibalba, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xiuhcoatl, Xiuhtecuhtli, Xiuhtecutli, Xmucane, Xochipili , Xochiquetzal, Xocotl, Xolotl, Xpiyacoc, Xpuch And Xtah, Yacatecuhtli, Yaluk, Yanauluha , Ya-o-gah , Yeba Ka, Yebaad, Yehl , Yeitso, Yiacatecuhtli, Yolkai Estsan, Yoskeha , Yum Kaax, Yuwipi , Zaramama, Zipaltonal, Zotz,

Norse, 111 Deities, Giants and Monsters:
Aegir, Aesir, Alfrigg, Audumbla, Aurgelmir, Balder, Berchta, Bergelmir, Bor, Bragi, Brisings, Buri, Etin, Fenris, Forseti, Frey, Freyja, Frigga, Gefion, Gerda, Gode, Gymir, Harke, Heimdall, Hel, Hermod, Hodur, Holda, Holle, Honir, Hymir, Idun, Jormungandr, Ljolsalfs, Loki, Magni, Mimir, Mistarblindi, Muspel, Nanna, Nanni, Nerthus, Njord, Norns, Odin, Perchta, Ran, Rig, Segyn, Sif, Skadi, Skirnir, Skuld, Sleipnir, Surt, Svadilfari, tanngniotr, tanngrisnr, Thiassi, Thor, Thrud, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Thurs, Tyr, Uller, Urd, Vali, Vali, Valkyries, Vanir, Ve, Verdandi, Vidar, Wode, Ymir

Pacific islands: 99 Deities, Demigods and Immortal Monsters:
Abeguwo, Abere, Adaro, Afekan, Ai Tupua'i, 'Aiaru, Ala Muki, Alalahe, Alii Menehune, Aluluei, Aruaka, Asin, Atanea, Audjal, Aumakua, Babamik, Bakoa, Barong, Batara Kala, Buring Une, Darago, Dayang-Raca, De Ai, Dogai, Enda Semangko, Faumea, Giriputri, Goga, Haumea, Hiiaka', Hina, Hine, Hoa-Tapu, 'Imoa, Io, Kanaloa, Kanaloa, Kane, Kapo, Kava, Konori, Ku, Kuhuluhulumanu, Kuklikimoku, Kukoae, Ku'ula, Laka, Laulaati, Lono, Mahiuki, MakeMake, Marruni, Maru, Maui, Melu, Menehune, Moeuhane, MOO-LAU, Ndauthina, Ne Te-reere, Nevinbimbaau, Ngendei, Nobu, Oro, Ove, Paka'a, Papa, Pele, Quat, Rangi, Rati, Rati-mbati-ndua, Ratu-Mai-Mbula, Rua, Ruahatu, Saning Sri, Ta'aroa, Taaroa, Tamakaia, Tane, Tanemahuta, Tangaroa, Tawhaki, Tiki, Tinirau, Tu, Tuli, Turi-a-faumea, Uira, Ukupanipo, Ulupoka, Umboko Indra, Vanuatu, Wahini-Hal, Walutahanga, Wari-Ma-Te-Takere, Whaitiri, Whatu, Wigan,

South American: 53 Deities, Demigods, Beings of Divine Substance:
Abaangui, Aclla, Akewa, Asima Si, Atoja, Auchimalgen, Axomama, Bachuï¿½, Beru, Bochica, Boiuna, Calounger, Catequil, Cavillaca, Ceiuci, Chasca, Chie, Cocomama, Gaumansuri, Huitaca, Iae, Ilyap'a, Ina, Inti, Ituana, Jamaina , Jandira, Jarina, Jubbu-jang-sangne, Ka-ata-killa, Kilya, Kuat, Kun, Luandinha, Lupi, Mama Allpa, Mama Quilla, Mamacocha, Manco Capac, Maret-Jikky, Maretkhmakniam, Mariana, Oshossi, Pachamac, Pachamama, Perimbï¿½, Rainha Barba, Si, Supai, Topï¿½tine, Viracocha, Yemanja (Imanje), Zume Topana.


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## Icarus (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Big long-@$$ list of deities.


HOLY SH*T!!!
:O
you went into the forbidden zone where the spritual flock just to prove a point that no one cares about?  I am so impressed with you 
Everybody give foxy a round of applause, she REALLY deserves it, facing her fears and everything ^.=.^ .


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

I told you it wouldn't make sense.:roll: 

For the record - atheism is a disbelief in any god. If you believe in some sort of deity, it does not make you an atheist of all other gods. You believe in a god - therefore you're not an atheist. Strange how someone who knows everything could fuck up something so simple.


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> For the record - atheism is a disbelief in any god. If you believe in some sort of deity, it does not make you an atheist of all other gods. You believe in a god - therefore you're not an atheist. Strange how someone who knows everything could mix up something so simple.



http://www.answers.com/atheism&r=67

Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

In other words, your an atheist of Zeus.


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

DPAK said:
			
		

> ...Sorry. I'm just tired of her idiotic ranting. But I really am quite curious as to how a Christian can be atheist.



A Christian is not atheist. However, it appears that she thinks that believing in one god and not another makes you atheist. Foxy, seriously. Stop trying to find ways to turn peoples' words to your favor. You're _so bad_ at it.

She's just that desperate to be right, and is just making herself look like she bought her apparent PhD in Philosophy from a gag-gifts catalogue. 

Also, Lobo, go ahead. XD Apparently someone else already has - which made me LOL my socks off.

Oh yeah! Almost forgot!


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.




.....exactly. No, it doesn't make me an atheist of Zeus. It means if you deny ALL existence of God or gods, you're an atheist. Believing in any sort of god means you are not an atheist. You have to believe in NONE of them to be an atheist. 

I have to ask - please tell me you're doing this for fun, and you really aren't this stupid.


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## foxy (Apr 18, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

>


Why is this crusade against me ?


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Epsereth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nobody likes a troll.

(Oh - there are no admins currently on - does anyone know if it's possible to like...freakin' petition to have someone removed from the forums? Or is that considered harassing them? Of course....since Foxy is the one being a troll...)


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## DPAK (Apr 18, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> foxy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for answering that for me. I appreciate it. Ooh... and Espereth, may I put that image in my siggy as well?


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## Lobo Roo (Apr 18, 2007)

We've got Espereth's pure win avatar to remind us. xD


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

Icarus said:
			
		

> Wednessday, April 18, 2007:
> Major victory of Spirituality and Creativity over Cold, Hard Logic.
> 
> win?



Wellsee, there's nothing wrong with logic in itself. I myself am a huge fangirl of Carl Sagan. But there is a distinct difference between logic and filibustering a page with fallacious *tl;dr* to make yourself look smart.


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## Icarus (Apr 18, 2007)

Wednessday, April 18, 2007:
Victory of Spirituality over TL;DR Know-It-All.


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## Xan_vega (Apr 18, 2007)

I believe in ghosts/spirits.


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## Lougara (Apr 18, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> Why don't Atheists ever see them? or are haunted by them?
> Why are Christians or religious people only afflicted with these pesky demons talking to them?



a little late to the party, but it's been said that the ignorant never see ghosts or apparitions mainly due to the fact that, well, THEY'RE FUCKING IGNORANT.

You wouldn't even notice if the Pope bit you on the nose, you are so wrapped up in your own aetheical self-righteousness.

And btw- some of the smartest and level headed people I know don't believe in gods, yet they have the open mindedness to study all religion and I even know an atheist who has seen ghosts, and studies them freelance.

So get your head out of your ass and see there's more to this world than your annoying lists.


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## Purplecat (Apr 18, 2007)

Atheists are ignorant?

Truth to be told, there's both ignorant atheists and ignorant religious people. I see a fair share of both people.

I'm Agnostic. I'm open that there might be spirits, but I have no firm beliefs in it as I hadn't seen any 'proof' for it. And people sometimes can hallucinate so... eh it's probably one of those things you don't know for sure until you're dead. ;P


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

Purplecat said:
			
		

> Atheists are ignorant?
> 
> Truth to be told, there's both ignorant atheists and ignorant religious people. I see a fair share of both people.



That's pretty much the point we've been trying to make to Foxy for weeks. The only ignorant people are those who put their hands over their ears and go "LALALALALALALA I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG LALALALALA", be they religious or atheist. And that was pretty much what she's been doing for the last few weeks.


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## Purplecat (Apr 18, 2007)

*nod*

Somehow I got the impression it was bashing the non-believers discussion (note to self, don't post when tired). Looking back I saw that Foxy was being more of an ass than anything. (there's ways you can express your opinion without pissing people off..)

I keep myself neutral on this subject though. Unless it can be disproven, or proven scientifically of course. Belief isn't really enough for me. :/


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## Epsereth (Apr 18, 2007)

Purplecat said:
			
		

> *nod*
> 
> Somehow I got the impression it was bashing the non-believers discussion (note to self, don't post when tired). Looking back I saw that Foxy was being more of an ass than anything. (there's ways you can express your opinion without pissing people off..)
> 
> I keep myself neutral on this subject though. Unless it can be disproven, or proven scientifically of course. Belief isn't really enough for me. :/



Oh, that's absolutely fine! I can totally respect that, and I don't expect other people to believe in things I do. I mean, I've had plenty of experiences with ghosts and the like, but I can't prove them and I'm aware of that. I'd be interested some time to discuss it with you, see what kind of argument you'd provide. I like debates. You know, that thing where people acknowledge the other opinion with respect as long as both sides are providing reasons, etc, and if nothing can be agreed upon you just agree to disagree? Hahah, cos that's not what Foxy was giving anyone. XD


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## kyubi_youma (Apr 18, 2007)

I've seen one scared the living daylights out of me....my brother didn't see it though...cuz he didn't look fast enough or something it was only there for a couple seconds then he disappeared
and no it wasn't just me that saw it, my mom saw it the whole time we lived in that house..seemed to be stalking her...


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 18, 2007)

LoboRoo said:
			
		

> foxy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a little harsh. A simple discussion has nothing to do with whether or not someone likes someone?


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 18, 2007)

Come on everyone...
Let's try to discuss and not bash please... She's taking the definition of words and playing with them in a way that gives her an argument. I think it's interesting to hear her arguments and have to think about a reverse argument as opposed to just spouting opinions and facts. But I was always was a philosophical minded person. Just ask jellyhurit (spellt wrong), I can spout all kinds of crap! 

Foxy,
What you cannot see is invisible to you. 

PS: I liked that avatar


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## Dark-Tigger (Apr 19, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> http://www.answers.com/atheism&r=67
> 
> Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
> 
> In other words, your an atheist of Zeus.



No, you are not going to be thousands of different atheists in one, either you believe in one/many gods, or you do not believe any could exist.  Having faith in one god alone proves that you are not an athiest.

#2 from where you pulled that definition - The doctrine that there is _*no*_ God or gods.


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## foxy (Apr 19, 2007)

Dark-Tigger said:
			
		

> No, you are not going to be thousands of different atheists in one, either you believe in one/many gods, or you do not believe any could exist.  Having faith in one god alone proves that you are not an athiest.
> 
> #2 from where you pulled that definition - The doctrine that there is _*no*_ God or gods.



If a Muslim ask you: Do you believe in Allah ? And you answer no. Your an infidel of this god.





> Actually, if you're blind you really don't know what color the car is. You have to BELIEVE that is blue, having FAITH that whoever told you it was blue was telling you the truth.


Invisible means it can never be seen under any circumstances with the eyes - tools or not (Pluto is not invisible - just hard to see). "love" is invisible. The car in my garage is not invisible.. it is just not visible. They are not antonyms.

I guess the true definition of invisible should be, "does not reflect any light".

And if you were blind, what difference would it make if it was blue or any other color?

If you had no sense of touch, no sense of smell, were totally deaf, and couldn't taste, how would you know anything was there?

Again I ask, what's this woman's point? She sees junior and you don't. So what? Is her seeing junior and your not seeing him supposed to mean something, other than she has hallucinations and delusions? Does her seeing this character and your not seeing somehow signify her vision is real? Or that she's special or you are sinful? What's her point?

Right off, I'd write her off as a bloody loon and stay as far away from her as possible. Never know with folks that have hallucinations, she might think you are a giant cockroach and try to kill you. Then again, maybe she'll think you are Elvis and will throw you her panties.

It isn't faith, if:

- the topic in question is an ordinary claim
- your source is generally trustworthy on ordinary matters
- you do not have an ulterior motive to believe
- your source is in a position to be knowledgable about the claim
(he is not blind like you, for example, and you have reason to believe he
has actually seen the car)
- your source has no suspected motive for trying to deceive you
- others independently and consistently confirm the same claim

Then it becomes an induction rather than faith. Contrast this with religious faith:

- the topic in question is not an ordinary claim
- your source is not in any better position of knowledge than you yourself
- you do have an ulterior motive to believe
- your source has historically proven to be using such claims to grab power
(or your source's source does)

Religious faith is not a reasoned induction, it's blind trust sustained by wishful thinking.


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## Arshes Nei (Apr 19, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

> Come on everyone...
> Let's try to discuss and not bash please... She's taking the definition of words and playing with them in a way that gives her an argument. I think it's interesting to hear her arguments and have to think about a reverse argument as opposed to just spouting opinions and facts. But I was always was a philosophical minded person. Just ask jellyhurit (spellt wrong), I can spout all kinds of crap!



Sure, if you like Straw Man arguments. So no, manipulating arguments can cause a lot of vindictive behavior. It's called in short "putting words in someone's mouth" That's not a way to behave.


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## DPAK (Apr 19, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> > Actually, if you're blind you really don't know what color the car is. You have to BELIEVE that is blue, having FAITH that whoever told you it was blue was telling you the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Err... I was the one who said it, you were the one who said the car was blue, and I never said anything else about it (especially not about hallucinations.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> An object may be classified as "invisible" if it cannot be seen due to environmental factors other than the fact that it doesn't reflect light. An object that might normally be seeable may be classified as invisible if it is:
> 
> *Behind an object.
> *The same colour or pattern as the background. (Camouflage)
> ...





			
				Dictionary said:
			
		

> Pronunciation[in-viz-uh-buh-l]
> â€“adjective
> 1. not visible; not perceptible by the eye: invisible fluid.
> 2. withdrawn from or out of sight; hidden: an invisible seam.
> ...



Finally, and on a personal note, I firmly believe the Bible is pretty trustworthy. But that's just me.


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## kitsubaka (Apr 19, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> 1337intellect said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think its funny that you believe yourself to be the ultimate truth in this issue.


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## kitsubaka (Apr 19, 2007)

I believe that every living thing has a soul, and I also believe in spirits.

"and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose; and having come forth out of the tombs after Jesus' rising, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

For people that do believe in the bible, this passage seems to say that the spirits of the dead were visible to the naked eye, at least momentarily.


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## Dark-Tigger (Apr 19, 2007)

foxy said:
			
		

> If a Muslim ask you: Do you believe in Allah ? And you answer no. Your an infidel of this god.



Still doesn't make me an atheist  .


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## Arshes Nei (Apr 19, 2007)

Bolding for corrections...



			
				foxy said:
			
		

> If a Muslim ask*s* you: Do you believe in Allah ? And you answer no. You*'re* an infidel of this god.



I won't get into the other mistakes because it's being too particular but the errors in the sentence made me think of the kind of setup for a bad joke.

.._Guy walks into a bar..._

That said, why would that change a person's belief?


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## Rostam The Grey (Apr 21, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Sure, if you like Straw Man arguments. So no, manipulating arguments can cause a lot of vindictive behavior. It's called in short "putting words in someone's mouth" That's not a way to behave.



I guess you could call it a straw man, but it's a viewpoint that I could see a lot of people accepting. She's simply defining invisible in a slightly different manner than it's true definition. But at the same time, it's a definition that would be fit the evidence in about 90% of the cases. I don't think the straw man was intentional. But oh well, everyone just started going after her.


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## Ty Vulpine (Apr 22, 2007)

One day a 6 year old girl was sitting in a 
classroom. The teacher was going to explain evolution to the children. The teacher asked a little boy: Tommy do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER: Did you see God up there?
TOMMY: No.
TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see 
God because he isn't there. Possibly he just doesn't exist.

A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions.
The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy: Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes. 
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yessssss! 
LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
TOMMY: Yessssss!
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY: Yes 
LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain? 
TOMMY: No
LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she possibly may not even have one!

(Same with ghosts and such. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.)


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## Sulacoyote (Apr 24, 2007)

I used to live in a house which had a pool which my grandfather died in before I was born. A lot of stuff happened, like this old typewriter would be going off in the middle of the night by itself, and a lot of other really damned weird things. We'd have random guests over who would just notice something in the air, then take me aside and awkwardly ask me if the place was haunted. I've had a lot of freaky shit happen to me which some people would describe as ghosts, spirits, or demonic type stuff... But I don't consider it to be any of that myself. I don't really think supernatural events occur anymore, if they did ever. Either it was my imagination playing tricks on me, or it was something with a material explanation.


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