# A movie or TV show where the anthropomorphic goat (ferals allowed) is not the villain



## Sam Wamm (Jun 19, 2019)

Anyone else feel like they get a bad rep in TV and cinema unjustly because of a certain religious figure being the bad egg that spoiled the whole bunch.

I honestly find it difficult to find anything where the goat character is not the villain of the piece.

Even when they are not they are often a nasty unlikable character.

Why are there no nice goats?


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## A Minty cheetah (Jun 19, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> Why are there no nice goats?


I know it's not TV or cinema, but the game Undertale has kind hearted goat-based characters. That's all I can think of  though!


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 19, 2019)

A Minty cheetah said:


> I know it's not TV or cinema, but the game Undertale has kind hearted goat-based characters. That's all I can think of  though!



well i know there's been a few games, especially indie titles where there have been good guy goats but when it's mainstream media like TV or Cinema it seems to have a distinct lack of it.


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## I don't eat USBs (Jun 19, 2019)

Fortune telling goat woman from Kung Fu Panda 2 was pretty nice. Was being forced to work for the villain but she helped out protag out and disliked the villain.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 19, 2019)

I don't eat USBs said:


> Fortune telling goat woman from Kung Fu Panda 2 was pretty nice. Was being forced to work for the villain but she helped out protag out and disliked the villain.



yes, this is often an example i use myself.


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## David Drake (Jun 19, 2019)

Well, Cranston from "Cats Don't Dance" kinda falls into the "nasty" category, but it's more of a "charmingly cranky old guy" character. And while he's usually the most downbeat of the main protagonists, he does have his moments where his fun and talent shine and he's rewarded in the end along with everyone else.


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## Le Chat Nécro (Jun 20, 2019)

There is a silly anime called Devils and Realist in which one of the devils has an anthro goat butler who is sweet, likable, and an amazing cook. He is in reference to the certain religious figure you mentioned, but the devils are painted as sympathetic creatures you're supposed to like and root for... well, must of them anyway.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 20, 2019)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> There is a silly anime called Devils and Realist in which one of the devils has an anthro goat butler who is sweet, likable, and an amazing cook. He is in reference to the certain religious figure you mentioned, but the devils are painted as sympathetic creatures you're supposed to like and root for... well, must of them anyway.



interesting. i'll look it up


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## Sagt (Jun 20, 2019)

Japeth from Hoodwinked.


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## Ravofox (Jun 20, 2019)

Sagt said:


> Japeth from Hoodwinked.



I don't know specific names, but I think I've seen a few wise goat characters here and there


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 20, 2019)

Sagt said:


> Japeth from Hoodwinked.


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## Scylo (Jun 22, 2019)

Does the chronicles of narnia count? He was half man half goat.

It’s a tough one since you said, sign of the devil.
I also have to say black billy was a badass in witch.

There is also the men who stare at goats they’re victims but only shown briefly a few times.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 22, 2019)

oh yes i already have Tumnus

yeah i'm not a fan of Ooch for multiple reasons.
personally i think it's a shoddy production that uses cheap tricks to appear better than it is.
as for the goat in it however they're actually the underdog that got pestered by kids for the sake of a shitty movie.

Yeah the goats are the victims in that movie but in a way that's worse.
They don't leave any impression and their entire purpose is to die.
essentially they're treated as worthless and expendable.
even the person who kills them isn't so upset about ending a life as he is about the concept of ending a life.


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## Xitheon (Jun 22, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> Anyone else feel like they get a bad rep in TV and cinema unjustly because of a certain religious figure being the bad egg that spoiled the whole bunch.
> 
> I honestly find it difficult to find anything where the goat character is not the villain of the piece.
> 
> ...



Goats are the bad guys in the movie "Drag me to Hell" but it's f**king hilarious.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 22, 2019)

Xitheon said:


> Goats are the bad guys in the movie "Drag me to Hell" but it's f**king hilarious.



okay that's pretty hilarious but still can you keep to the brief because the world is already saturated with goat villain and if you started listing them all this would just be one giant goat villain topic and that's not what i'm looking for. that's already pretty easy enough to find.


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## TallmanClay (Jun 22, 2019)

Pan from Pan's Labyrinth? He's more "human" than an average goatman and isn't nice to look at, but he isn't the bad guy.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 22, 2019)

TallmanClay said:


> Pan from Pan's Labyrinth? He's more "human" than an average goatman and isn't nice to look at, but he isn't the bad guy.



ah nice suggestion.
i think they're cute.
but i think you mean faun, isn't pan the girl?


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## TallmanClay (Jun 22, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> ah nice suggestion.
> i think they're cute.
> but i think you mean faun, isn't pan the girl?


The little girl is Ofelia. But you're right, they call him Faun in the movie. I say Pan just because it's implied.


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## Xitheon (Jun 22, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> okay that's pretty hilarious but still can you keep to the brief because the world is already saturated with goat villain and if you started listing them all this would just be one giant goat villain topic and that's not what i'm looking for. that's already pretty easy enough to find.



Sorry, didn't intend to derail.


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## Baalf (Jun 22, 2019)

you are wanting to see a show where goats are protagonists? Because I just like to see something where anything that isn't human is a protagonist.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 22, 2019)

I think it's because unless they're butting you with their horns or biting you, goats generally are not seen as evil. However, rams are often associated with demons due to horns. That and the "chin" of a goat makes them look like evil old guy wizards. XD 

Personally,I want more evil foxes. Sly, cunning. Like that one fox from that North Korean cartoon. Foxes would make great chess masters. They also have retractile claws, can see in the dark, have magnetic pole detection, and a banshee like shriek.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 22, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Personally,I want more evil foxes. Sly, cunning. Like that one fox from that North Korean cartoon. Foxes would make great chess masters. They also have retractile claws, can see in the dark, have magnetic pole detection, and a banshee like shriek.


No thanks. We've had plenty of that shit over the centuries, and are just recently starting to get better. As for the vixen you cite as an example, as with the Bible, the "villains" are actually the good guys.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 22, 2019)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> No thanks. We've had plenty of that shit over the centuries, and are just recently starting to get better. As for the vixen you cite as an example, as with the Bible, the "villains" are actually the good guys.



Eh, there's not a lot of fox villains out there. Also, I happen to be a Christian, so that was sort of offensive.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 23, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Eh, there's not a lot of fox villains out there. Also, I happen to be a Christian, so that was sort of offensive.



i can think of lots of examples of fox villains. what indeed are you talking about?

also this isn't a topic for religion so bringing it up in the first place is kinda questionable and i'm stroking my metaphorical beard on how far it has to go before it's a breach of the rules of FAF as well.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 23, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> i can think of lots of examples of fox villains. what indeed are you talking about?
> 
> also this isn't a topic for religion so bringing it up in the first place is kinda questionable and i'm stroking my metaphorical beard on how far it has to go before it's a breach of the rules of FAF as well.



Examples then? I wasn't even the one who started to bring up the Bible, he did.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 23, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Examples then? I wasn't even the one who started to bring up the Bible, he did.



Well there's a fox villain in Pinoccio, Beatrix Potter, etc. Mostly they're all old cartoons from before the 80's.

Also, I don't care who started talking about what, I just don't want you to talk about it anymore.

"The better man is the one who ends an argument."

Unless any of you have something useful to talk on topic about, then for one, why are you here, and secondly, can you please leave?


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 23, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> Well there's a fox villain in Pinoccio, Beatrix Potter, etc. Mostly they're all old cartoons from before the 80's.
> 
> Also, I don't care who started talking about what, I just don't want you to talk about it anymore.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I was born in the 90's so that really wouldn't be applicable to myself, too old for me. XD

Don't worry, I'm not here to speak about my faith. I have a channel on Discord for that. It was just rude and out of the blue. 

_"Unless any of you have something useful to talk on topic about, then for one, why are you here, and secondly, can you please leave?"_

Also, this sounds a bit rude and pretentious to be honest. Implying I don't have an opinion on the conversation beforehand.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 23, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> this sounds a bit rude and pretentious to be honest. Implying I don't have an opinion on the conversation beforehand.



well it's just that this kind of content isn't easy to find so for 1 it's easy to stray off topic and 2 once it does it tends to stay that way and nothing is resolved.

i'm fine with a bit of chat but so many times people have just spammed these topics with "i know they're a villain in this thing but-" or "i know a show that has a heroic sheep, is that close enough?" and then the topic becomes just a huge elaboration of that and nothing else.

that is also a reason why it's been hard to get any good content in itself.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 23, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> well it's just that this kind of content isn't easy to find so for 1 it's easy to stray off topic and 2 once it does it tends to stay that way and nothing is resolved.
> 
> i'm fine with a bit of chat but so many times people have just spammed these topics with "i know they're a villain in this thing but-" or "i know a show that has a heroic sheep, is that close enough?" and then the topic becomes just a huge elaboration of that and nothing else.
> 
> that is also a reason why it's been hard to get any good content in itself.



Dude, whatever happened yesterday is finished. Please calm down.

I think you're getting worked up over nothing. I honestly don't even care the species of an animal villain, so long as they're an interesting villain. I have villains of pretty much every species, (minus hedgehogs and echindas which are overdone in the fandom.)


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 23, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Dude, whatever happened yesterday is finished. Please calm down.
> 
> I think you're getting worked up over nothing. I honestly don't even care the species of an animal villain, so long as they're an interesting villain. I have villains of pretty much every species, (minus hedgehogs and echindas which are overdone in the fandom.)



Well for one i said i specifically didn't want villain characters. I know you can say goat villains are interesting characters sometimes but it's a trope I'm somewhat offended by so i came here looking for non-villain goats and basically thus far the responses I've had are along the lines of something like "goat villains are better than goat non-villains." which when you think about it it's like saying "goats are villains, shut up.".

You see i have a double purpose here. for one I'm a goat farmer and i'm often told things like "goats are nasty, horrible, mean, etc." and that sheep are the total opposite despite the fact that anyone who actually spent any length of time with the two animals will tell you they are exactly the same. These arguments are often coupled with things like "cats are so sweet and nice and loving." which is completely ridiculous because cats often have huge attitudes and behavioral problems.

Now I'm not saying every goat is nicely behaved and i'm not saying every cat is gentle but the vast majority of cats do have an attitude problem and the vast majority of goats don't. this is despite the general concensus and what often tv and cinema will have you believe. cats are often judged by their cute appearance and goats by their "ugly" appearance and those are used to measure their moral values rather than the way the two animals actually behave in reality.

secondly i myself as you can see am a goat (or at least my furry species) and because of this i often receive a lot of messages that are either hate mail in the form of nutcases using religion as an excuse to hate on my character choice claiming i'm a demon and i need to be purified and seek religious help. I'm not ignorant of religion, I myself have a religious background. That's very offensive to me because of that. I stand by a lot of the virtues and commandments and for someone just to accuse me of all kinds of things just because of the animal i like is downright offensive, but no matter how much i try to complain, the answer from admins is always something along the lines of "you brought it on yourself by chosing goat." or saying "what have you got against religion?" like i hate religion simply because i'm complaining about bullies using it as an excuse because they have a huge chip on their shoulder and some nutty understanding of caprini.

Not only that but the sympathetic messages i get are completely misconstrued as well. People who tend to send me messages about how much they like me are often coupled with things like praising me for worshiping Satan which i completely don't or assuming i'm into heavy metal and giving me a thumbs up for that when of course i'm not and though they mean well they are highly stereotyping me and it only stands to make matters worse when people see the kinds of flock i have and make a judgement based on that dewspite the fact that if they looked any deeper they'd see how much i hate those things.

so basically i came here looking for material i could use to combat the haters and say that their prejudices and typing are wrong and i've been met with the opposite by people basically trying to stereotype again. i know you guys mean well but can you please understand that this topic is about trying to break a trope and so when i tell you to stay on topic i'm not being mean i'm simply desperate and rather pissed and i'm trying my best not to sound like a mean old little billy goat because i'm tired of hearing that over and over again.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 23, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> Well for one i said i specifically didn't want villain characters. I know you can say goat villains are interesting characters sometimes but it's a trope I'm somewhat offended by so i came here looking for non-villain goats and basically thus far the responses I've had are along the lines of something like "goat villains are better than goat non-villains." which when you think about it it's like saying "goats are villains, shut up.".
> 
> You see i have a double purpose here. for one I'm a goat farmer and i'm often told things like "goats are nasty, horrible, mean, etc." and that sheep are the total opposite despite the fact that anyone who actually spent any length of time with the two animals will tell you they are exactly the same. These arguments are often coupled with things like "cats are so sweet and nice and loving." which is completely ridiculous because cats often have huge attitudes and behavioral problems.
> 
> ...



Wow, you're taking this a bit too far there. Sheesh, calm down.


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## Keo the Catbee (Jun 23, 2019)




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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 23, 2019)

Keo the Catbee said:


> View attachment 64505



Seems what this topic has evolved into, or should I say devolved?


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Seems what this topic has evolved into, or should I say devolved?



look i'm not being pissy. it's just that this happens every single time. i'm fucking sick of it.

sure, i understand that this is the first time you've heard the story so it sounds like i'm over the top but i've had this dilemma for years now.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Why not make a character who's a spider, or a frog, or maybe a scorpion? Those are evil enough.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Why not make a character who's a spider, or a frog, or maybe a scorpion? Those are evil enough.



i'm not going to reply to you if you're just going to twist my words.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> i'm not going to reply to you if you're just going to twist my words.



That's not twisting words, that's a suggestion. I have unorthodox characters as well, even an Aye aye and a Frost Giantess.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> That's not twisting words, that's a suggestion. I have unorthodox characters as well, even an Aye aye and a Frost Giantess.



you know I'm specifically looking for non-villains.
heck, it's even in the title of the topic.
yet at every damn point you've said things about villains and nothing else, even when it was fully explained to you.
you're a troll, it's obvious, and you're not as smart as you believe you are.
so why would i even give you the time of day?
goodbye.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> you know I'm specifically looking for non-villains.
> heck, it's even in the title of the topic.
> yet at every damn point you've said things about villains and nothing else, even when it was fully explained to you.
> you're a troll, it's obvious, and you're not as smart as you believe you are.
> ...



_"Everyone who disagrees with me is a troll!"_ A very childish fallacy in logic.

Actually, most of my characters are villains, even my best and most liked ones. My stories are morally grey.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

> Redacted by staff



Wow, threatening my internet over this. This is just childish. By the way, I live in the woods and I'm literally the only house with internet. GG


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Wow, threatening my internet over this. This is just childish. By the way, I live in the woods and I'm literally the only house with internet. GG



just another scoop of dirt my friend.
you're still doing the same thing.
i'm only threatening the internet because i have experience of people like you and i know that when you eventually get banned you'll try hell and high water to spam wherever i go with similar messages and if you persist in this the ONLY solution that works is taking your internet away.
i'm a reasonable man, i'm willing to go through the due process of getting the admins in here, i have enough evidence now and no i don't mean specifically this topic.
by the way deleting your posts doesn't stop the admins seeing it as you imagine it does, especially when there's logs and i have screen captures.
quite frankly i was in a bad mood but the more you dig the more i'm starting to enjoy this.
quite frankly your inability to see how stupid your playground antics are is hilariously moronic.
i need popcorn. and i'm so sharing this to a dumb troll compilation aftewards.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> just another scoop of dirt my friend.
> you're still doing the same thing.
> i'm only threatening the internet because i have experience of people like you and i know that when you eventually get banned you'll try hell and high water to spam wherever i go with similar messages and if you persist in this the ONLY solution that works is taking your internet away.
> i'm a reasonable man, i'm willing to go through the due process of getting the admins in here, i have enough evidence now and no i don't mean specifically this topic.
> ...



It's a good thing I know you're completely incapable of preforming any sort of hack on me. You cannot even spell right.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> and i'll enjoy the stupid comments you make about laughing at how ridiculous that sounds when the inevitable happens.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Still waiting on those viruses you're sending me.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> i said. banned first. then if you persist i'm disconnecting you from the telephone exchange.



I don't even use the telephone. I honestly think you're blowing smoke and this is sad.


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> _"Everyone who disagrees with me is a troll!"_ A very childish fallacy in logic.
> 
> Actually, most of my characters are villains, even my best and most liked ones. My stories are morally grey.



As much as I think he's going a bit too far, he does have a point. He specifically asked for media where they aren't villains, and you stated media where they are. Also, I to kind of relate to him when he says he gets offended by the villainization of goats. I, personally, feel offended when a lot of my favorite animals are villainized too, especially when they are done so just to make humans look good.

I have never personally seen this movie, and it probably isn't very good, but the movie Wildlife has a character who is a goat. Pretty sure he isn't a villain. If anything, I sort of want to see it just because three of the characters are in echidna, at tapir and a Pangolin.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> As much as I think he's going a bit too far, he does have a point. He specifically asked for media where they aren't villains, and you stated media where they are. Also, I to kind of relate to him when he says he gets offended by the villainization of goats. I, personally, feel offended when a lot of my favorite animals are villainized too, especially when they are done so just to make humans look good.
> 
> I have never personally seen this movie, and it probably isn't very good, but the movie Wildlife has a character who is a goat. Pretty sure he isn't a villain. If anything, I sort of want to see it just because three of the characters are in echidna, at tapir and a Pangolin.



That's sort of the thing, I honestly am not a hero liking guy anyways. To me, some villains are heroes so by asking me who in a media would be a hero, you're going to get a skewed answer.  Some heroes are lame and some villains are awesome, so by my own perspective my answer wouldn't just be applicable. I'm sort of the opposite, I love a good villain who's a dog, a cat, or a species I am fond of. Then again, some villains are heroes in their own rights. I don't really see the problem with villains, so long as they're good villains and decent characters. Then again, I 'root for the Empire' quite often. 

In my story, it's possible to be a goat and a good guy, or at least a non-combatant. However, in my story my villains are normally given way more spotlight than my heroes so being the bad guy is sort of  a good thing when you're the bad guy everyone cares for. (Think of it like Handsome Jack in the pre-sequal, everyone really got that game for one simple reason. To see how Jack became evil and what driven him to insanity. I also bought the game for that reason as well. ) To put it short, I honestly wouldn't know about what type of "hero" you're looking for, because my "heroes" fight in wars and have schemes. They also fly tie fighters and wield red lightsabers. XD


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## Scylo (Jun 24, 2019)

I cured all the worlds diseases during this internet argument.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Scylo said:


> I cured all the worlds diseases during this internet argument.



It's about time.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> As much as I think he's going a bit too far, he does have a point. He specifically asked for media where they aren't villains, and you stated media where they are. Also, I to kind of relate to him when he says he gets offended by the villainization of goats. I, personally, feel offended when a lot of my favorite animals are villainized too, especially when they are done so just to make humans look good.
> 
> I have never personally seen this movie, and it probably isn't very good, but the movie Wildlife has a character who is a goat. Pretty sure he isn't a villain. If anything, I sort of want to see it just because three of the characters are in echidna, at tapir and a Pangolin.



interesting though with a name like "Wildlife" that might be difficult to get.

yeah sorry @BennyJackdaw but don't get involved in the argument if you can.
if you read the rest of the topic it's far from ignorance, they are actively attempting to annoying me on purpose.
the trolls don't need any more feed, you know.
to be honest i'm deliberately goading him so i can repost it elsewhere and laugh at them amonst my friends.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Everyone who disagrees with you is not a troll, only snowflakes and people who need to label others have such a childish outlook on life. Self projection it seems.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Everyone who disagrees with you is not a troll, only snowflakes and people who need to label others have such a childish outlook on life. Self projection it seems.



yep, twisting my words again.
to the guys that bet he would use the word "snowflake" in this post you win this hour's prize.
enjoy your credits.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> yep, twisting my words again.
> to the guys that bet he would use the word "snowflake" in this post you win this hour's prize.
> enjoy your credits.



I'm pretty sure most people don't even care about this conversation.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I'm pretty sure most people don't even care about this conversation.



apparently about 200 people do


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> apparently about 200 people do



That's great, and how much will that matter next week? None.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> That's great, and how much will that matter next week? None.



i dunno, i was having a shitty day and this made me feel better.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> i dunno, i was having a shitty day and this made me feel better.



I'm happy to please.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I'm happy to please.



and the guy's who predicted that and indeed the exact wording, well done.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> and the guy's who predicted that and indeed the exact wording, well done.



Sure they did.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Sure they did.



wow you're just winning bets for everyone lol


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> wow you're just winning bets for everyone lol



Play stupid games,win stupid prizes.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Play stupid games,win stupid prizes.



well i just set up my new website and invited my friends so it'sa fun way to test out the featuers.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> well i just set up my new website and invited my friends so it'sa fun way to test out the featuers.



Cool, you do that. Don't know why you're even informing me about this though, it's like you're trying to impress me like I'm your alcoholic father or some crap.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Cool, you do that. Don't know why you're even informing me about this though, it's like you're trying to impress me like I'm your alcoholic father or some crap.



the guys who said "alcoholic father" earlier, i know it came up but it already expired a while ago so no prize sorry.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> the guys who said "alcoholic father" earlier, i know it came up but it already expired a while ago so no prize sorry.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


>



hmm close but that wasn't the clip we guessed lol


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> That's sort of the thing, I honestly am not a hero liking guy anyways. To me, some villains are heroes so by asking me who in a media would be a hero, you're going to get a skewed answer.  Some heroes are lame and some villains are awesome, so by my own perspective my answer wouldn't just be applicable. I'm sort of the opposite, I love a good villain who's a dog, a cat, or a species I am fond of. Then again, some villains are heroes in their own rights. I don't really see the problem with villains, so long as they're good villains and decent characters. Then again, I 'root for the Empire' quite often.
> 
> In my story, it's possible to be a goat and a good guy, or at least a non-combatant. However, in my story my villains are normally given way more spotlight than my heroes so being the bad guy is sort of  a good thing when you're the bad guy everyone cares for. (Think of it like Handsome Jack in the pre-sequal, everyone really got that game for one simple reason. To see how Jack became evil and what driven him to insanity. I also bought the game for that reason as well. ) To put it short, I honestly wouldn't know about what type of "hero" you're looking for, because my "heroes" fight in wars and have schemes. They also fly tie fighters and wield red lightsabers. XD



I know that feeling. In way too much media, I feel like the antagonist is the hero, not the hero is themselves. I think that's what I hate about modern media: nature and animal lovers as well as the animals themselves are always the bad guys while human-sues are constantly being portrayed as the heroes. As such, I know how you feel about heroes and villains.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> I know that feeling. In way too much media, I feel like the antagonist is the hero, not the hero is themselves. I think that's what I hate about modern media: nature and animal lovers as well as the animals themselves are always the bad guys while human-sues are constantly being portrayed as the heroes. As such, I know how you feel about heroes and villains.



I mean, there's Furtopia and the racoon guy from The Guardians of the Galaxy, but I get what you mean. I honestly think it's because simply most normal people want humans to be the hero, unless it's in a cartoon or an anime. When you get up to big box office flicks, you don't see any furry stuff for the good guys. Then again, even in ancient times and medieval, half-human/half-animal hybrids have always been seen as evil in classic mythos and folklore. I do agree that there needs to be more well rounded and likeable villains, sometimes your hero is just there to win and have a happy ending. As someone who plays a lot of Warhammer and I love a good Chaos ending, this is annoying.


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I mean, there's Furtopia and the racoon guy from The Guardians of the Galaxy, but I get what you mean. I honestly think it's because simply most normal people want humans to be the hero, unless it's in a cartoon or an anime. When you get up to big box office flicks, you don't see any furry stuff for the good guys. Then again, even in ancient times and medieval, half-human/half-animal hybrids have always been seen as evil in classic mythos and folklore. I do agree that there needs to be more well rounded and likeable villains, sometimes your hero is just there to win and have a happy ending. As someone who plays a lot of Warhammer and I love a good Chaos ending, this is annoying.



Not exactly. The ancient Egyptians, and to a lesser extent the Indians, had plenty of anthro deities that were considered good.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> Not exactly. The ancient Egyptians, and to a lesser extent the Indians, had plenty of anthro deities that were considered good.



True, but this really came around the time of the Greek and Roman Empire. Which makes sense, Europeans saw animals as livestock, companions, and rarely as deities outright. That, and there was mythos of good vs evil, and thus animals were seen as a wicked thing. With the rise of Christianity, this trope came notorious for demons and things beneath mankind for obvious reasons. (Hint: It's in the Bible.) This carried over to medieval times and pretty much up until Walt Disney.


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> True, but this really came around the time of the Greek and Roman Empire. Which makes sense, Europeans saw animals as livestock, companions, and rarely as deities outright. That, and there was mythos of good vs evil, and thus animals were seen as a wicked thing. With the rise of Christianity, this trope came notorious for demons and things beneath mankind for obvious reasons. (Hint: It's in the Bible.) This carried over to medieval times and pretty much up until Walt Disney.



Is that why Norse mythology generally depicts animals as villains? I can't think of any good Norse animal Deities. Even the fricken squirrel is considered a bad guy pretty much.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> Is that why Norse mythology generally depicts animals as villains? I can't think of any good Norse animal Deities. Even the fricken squirrel is considered a bad guy pretty much.



Yes, but that's because all the gods are human and they're also big into hunting. In Norse mythology being a manly man was where it was at, thus it would make sense that Norse culture was all about slaying beasts for food and whatnot.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Animals have always been used as symbols to accentuate aspects of human behavior but not always the aspects match the animal and it leaves one scratching their head why they chose it this way but actually half the time it's just because the animal call sounds like a certain word in their language.

For example crows first became associated with death because the call of a crow sounded like the word for "to die" and only later did they try to make it further fit by things like crows eating dead bodies.

Goats were originally seen as evil because they would escape farms where the animals were sent to slaughter. Apparently not wanting to die was seen as a dispicable act for the sole reason that it was simply disobeying what humans wanted to do with the animal. Says a lot about humans doesn't it?

The early Jews and furthermore the Muslims recognised the fact the goats feared death as a sign of wisdom and in that way had an affinity between man and animal seeing them as equals. Even though this is sympathetic it still runs along the idea that humans are the oh so perfect super being and any animal that's human-like therefore is divine like humans are.

The Catholics are the ones who associated goats with the devil despite the fact that even their own holy book says the devil is a snake and that goats themselves are the most divine among all animals. It wasn't about what the religion itself said, it was about trying to stamp out Judaism which saw the goat as divine. It was a political agenda with propaganda, not an argument that had any religious backing necesarily.

However today the imagery of a goat-like creature as sinister lends itself from paintings made by Catholics from the time of this propaganda which have been referenced and reiterated over and over across centuries to drive the point home. By the time we got to the start of industry and pirates sailing the seas the political side of this had ebbed away as things like governments began and the average person could control politics instead of inherited family lines.

Unfortunately by that point it was so ingrained into our culture that it just stuck with us and the image of demonic goats has been a trope of fiction ever since, especially since the rise of novels in Victorian times. If you want an example of how old beliefs can be misconstrued by fiction then just look at vampires. Originally they were cannibals, not blood drinkers, and they transformed into wolves and not bats. Not only that but Elizabeth, Dracula's wife, was actually the villain of the piece, Dracula himself was just a pawn in her mind games.

The novel Dracula by Brahm Stoker basically invented most of the concepts we associate with vampires including the methods to kill them and their apparent immortality. Our whole understanding of vampires in based on nothing but a fictional novel rather than the actual historical events or the folklore that the subject matter is based on.

So now despite the fact that a goat is merely an animal like all the other creatures it's symbolized as inherently evil and even those who are supportive of the creature only do so out of the lovable rogue / sympathy for the devil ethic, not actually because they have any interest in the animal itself and what it feels or cares about.

To use a human analogue it's like when people said they liked black people and then told them to dance for them because they found it entertaining. You're still not respecting the individual just because you have an interest in them. You still see them as toys to play with rather than living breathing creatures with their own thoughts and beliefs.

So when I get offended by the way goats are portrayed and people tell me to shut up it's the equivant of a black guy being offended by blackface and then the white people saying "but we're respecting you see? you shouldn't be offended by this.". Fine you broke the trope of them being hated but you're still seeing them as villainous. That's not respect.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

I honestly wouldn't be offended by my furries being seen as evil, they're meant to be villains. Then again, like I said before, I don't mind having villains be any species I can think of. Because it's fun and cool to have villains as those species, especially when they're far more interesting than any lame hero. I honestly don't even see the problem. I play Beastmen in Total War:Warhammer and the brayheards are cool.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I honestly wouldn't be offended by my furries being seen as evil, they're meant to be villains. Then again, like I said before, I don't mind having villains be any species I can think of. Because it's fun and cool to have villains as those species, especially when they're far more interesting than any lame hero. I honestly don't even see the problem. I play Beastmen in Total War:Warhammer and the brayheards are cool.



wow you're just totally topic blind aren't you?


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I honestly wouldn't be offended by my furries being seen as evil, they're meant to be villains. Then again, like I said before, I don't mind having villains be any species I can think of. Because it's fun and cool to have villains as those species, especially when they're far more interesting than any lame hero. I honestly don't even see the problem. I play Beastmen in Total War:Warhammer and the brayheards are cool.



I, personally, disagree. I personally don't want to like the villains more than the heroes. I don't want my villains to be a huge diverse roster of all sorts of different creatures while the heroes are human and nothing else. I personally get so offended by media that does this that I cannot enjoy it. A movie can have an otherwise fantastic plot and a video game can have kickass game play, but if it does that, then I refuse to support it.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> wow you're just totally topic blind aren't you?



No, I just find it silly how you're getting so upset over a goat being portrayed as evil.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> I, personally, disagree. I personally don't want to like the villains more than the heroes. I don't want my villains to be a huge diverse roster of all sorts of different creatures while the heroes are human and nothing else. I personally get so offended by media that does this that I cannot enjoy it. A movie can have an otherwise fantastic plot and a video game can have kickass game play, but if it does that, then I refuse to support it.



Not everyone wants to see the world as black and white. Morally grey series like Warhammer, Fallout, and Grand Theft Auto sell because you get a taste of what it's like to do what you want for the hell of it and to be in a world where everyone is against everyone else. Evil and good are a spectrum, such as with lawful and chaotic. Having only two sides to that spectrum is simplistic and monotonous as it's been done to death.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> No, I just find it silly how you're getting so upset over a goat being portrayed as evil.



yes but when it's basically just misinterpretation that's one thing but people take it too far and i've had attempts on my life for simply liking goats at all.


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> No, I just find it silly how you're getting so upset over a goat being portrayed as evil.



 Again, I can understand where he is coming from.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> Goats were originally seen as evil because they would escape farms where the animals were sent to slaughter. Apparently not wanting to die was seen as a dispicable act for the sole reason that it was simply disobeying what humans wanted to do with the animal. Says a lot about humans doesn't it?
> 
> The early Jews and furthermore the Muslims recognised the fact the goats feared death as a sign of wisdom and in that way had an affinity between man and animal seeing them as equals. Even though this is sympathetic it still runs along the idea that humans are the oh so perfect super being and any animal that's human-like therefore is divine like humans are.


This is pretty much Abrahamic creationism described in two paragraphs, and a big part of what led me to antitheism. I've got little love for most  animal stories outside the furry fandom, either. Looking at you, Aesop, Beatrix Potter, Brian Jacques, etc.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> Again, I can understand where he is coming from.



Yes, but from a literary perspective it's very narrow. I mean, if you want to do the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" route of story telling, but it seems he clearly has something broken here. I personally don't like to limit my characters as "they're this species, so they're ugly because they're evil". That is of course, unless they're a species that is just akin to a tick. I normally make my own anthros and fursonas vary, my good characters are not 100% good, and unless I'm just going for pure evil, most of my villains are not 100% evil as well. It's a broad spectrum in character narration.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Yes, but from a literary perspective it's very narrow. I mean, if you want to do the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" route of story telling, but it seems he clearly has something broken here. I personally don't like to limit my characters as "they're this species, so they're ugly because they're evil". That is of course, unless they're a species that is just akin to a tick. I normally make my own anthros and fursonas vary, my good characters are not 100% good, and unless I'm just going for pure evil, most of my villains are not 100% evil as well. It's a broad spectrum in character narration.



you're accusing ME of having a one-track mind?

where have you been this entire conversation?


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> you're accusing ME of having a one-track mind?
> 
> where have you been this entire conversation?



I like how you took that as a personal insult when I was talking very in general about the overall concept of "Tolkien hero" vs "Tolkien villain". I don't see a story in a black and white perspective, I see it in a series of tropes, archetypes, and cliches. The only reason I have assumed this is because how you went ballistic over your goat character being portrayed as a bad guy, for some odd reason.


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I like how you took that as a personal insult when I was talking very in general about the overall concept of "Tolkien hero" vs "Tolkien villain". I don't see a story in a black and white perspective, I see it in a series of tropes, archetypes, and cliches. The only reason I have assumed this is because how you went ballistic over your goat character being portrayed as a bad guy, for some odd reason.



 because he asked for one thing and you gave him the exact opposite of what he asked for. Just because you have a different Outlook on good and evil doesn't mean everyone has that Outlook or should have it.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> it seems he clearly has something broken here.





Jaredthefox92 said:


> I like how you took that as a personal insult.



seriously, whatever you're on, you've had too much.
pass the dutch, bro.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> seriously, whatever you're on, you've had too much.
> pass the dutch, bro.



I am drug free, it's the way to be.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> because he asked for one thing and you gave him the exact opposite of what he asked for. Just because you have a different Outlook on good and evil doesn't mean everyone has that Outlook or should have it.



Yes, but is this not an opinion on a forum? What do you want? Me to just blindly agree with him just because he posted? This is a topic, and as such you must be prepared for people to disagree with said topic, or to have their own thoughts. I am not a collectivist by any means.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Yes, but is this not an opinion on a forum? What do you want? Me to just blindly agree with him just because he posted? This is a topic, and as such you must be prepared for people to disagree with said topic, or to have their own thoughts. I am not a collectivist by any means.



yes but after stating your point and i stating mine and there is nothing more to say why did you decide to keep talking about it for several pages other than to annoy me or try to wear me down?

what is your obsession with this topic?
just say your piece and leave.

the only reason i'm talking here so much is because this is my own topic and you're trying to derail it.

that of course is completely separate to whatever point you're making.


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## Baalf (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Yes, but is this not an opinion on a forum? What do you want? Me to just blindly agree with him just because he posted? This is a topic, and as such you must be prepared for people to disagree with said topic, or to have their own thoughts. I am not a collectivist by any means.



TP was not looking for opinions, he was looking for media with protagonistic goat characters.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> yes but after stating your point and i stating mine and there is nothing more to say why did you decide to keep talking about it for several pages other than to annoy me or try to wear me down?
> 
> what is your obsession with this topic?
> just say your piece and leave.
> ...



Um no, you don't get to dictate when I am done typing. Sorry, but the world doesn't revolve around yourself. You do not get to choose when someone replies to a post. If you don't like what I post, here's a simple thing to do: Log off your computer or just exit out of the tab. Sorry, but you have no right to dictate who or what someone else says. Life doesn't work like that in the slightest.

Also, weren't you the one who previously was saying you were getting your proverbial jollies from this conversation? Sounds like a duplicitous contradiction right now.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> TP was not looking for opinions, he was looking for media with protagonistic goat characters.



Well, welcome to the internet. Opinions are what fuel forums.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Um no, you don't get to dictate when I am done typing.



Actually yes i do. The forum has rules about spam posting i think you'll find.



Jaredthefox92 said:


> Well, welcome to the internet. Opinions are what fuel forums.



And you say you're not a troll? That's basically the 4chan troll manifesto right there quoted almost word for word.

Honestly do you think we're that stupid?


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> Actually yes i do. The forum has rules about spam posting i think you'll find.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What if I told you, that I've never been on 4chan?

I love how you keep assuming I'm a troll, when clearly I've given ample opportunity into enlightening you of the nature as to why I am posting.  I guess it's second hand nature for people to paint others as what they wish for them to be in order to make themselves feel better about anyone who doesn't give them asspats. No, I'm not a troll. I just have input and you don't like that, so you have to find something to label me as to make yourself feel more secure about this little discussion.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> What if I told you, that I've never been on 4chan?
> 
> I love how you keep assuming I'm a troll, when clearly I've given ample opportunity into enlightening you of the nature as to why I am posting.  I guess it's second hand nature for people to paint others as what they wish for them to be in order to make themselves feel better about anyone who doesn't give them asspats. No, I'm not a troll. I just have input and you don't like that, so you have to find something to label me as to make yourself feel more secure about this little discussion.



well guys you won the bet again lol.

next hourly bets start at 5AM British time (approximately 50 minutes from now).

as for the random dude who actually supports Jared in the chat you do know that despite whatever you believe you will be banned if you continue to make racist remarks and yes "gook" is a racist remark you idiot.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> well guys you won the bet again lol.
> 
> next hourly bets start at 5AM British time (approximately 50 minutes from now).
> 
> as for the random dude who actually supports Jared in the chat you do know that despite whatever you believe you will be banned if you continue to make racist remarks and yes "gook" is a racist remark you idiot.



Woah, hold on there. Don't bring racism into this. We're talking about talking anthropomorphic goats here. Keep it civil.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Woah, hold on there. Don't bring racism into this. We're talking about talking anthropomorphic goats here. Keep it civil.



fair but i'm actually the Chinese person they were insulting.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> fair but i'm actually the Chinese person they were insulting.



I don't care what someone is, only the measure of their intellect.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I don't care what someone is, only the measure of their intellect.



lol irony


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> lol irony



Indeed.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Indeed.



well for one the fact you keep misquoting me or downright saying that i said something that i didn't shows your true character.

you see on an imageboard like 4chan that tactic might work as messages get pushed back by many people posting.

but this is a topic in a forum where anyone can just scroll back a couple of inches and see exactly what i said.

so yeah i think i'm pretty justified in both saying that A, you're an idiot, and B, you definitely came from 4chan.

i can't believe that you thought your plan was working somehow.

even when other people joined into the topic they were hinting at you but you still doggedly stuck to your approach.

obviously that tactic must have worked well for you in the past but when it stopped working here why did you stick to it?

this isn't facebook you fool.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> well for one the fact you keep misquoting me or downright saying that i said something that i didn't shows your true character.
> 
> you see on an imageboard like 4chan that tactic might work as messages get pushed back by many people posting.
> 
> ...



I love how you assume I even use Facebook or 4chan. No, I don't. Once more, you assume everyone who doesn't agree with your world view is somehow some evil troll out to get you. Paranoia, perhaps?


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 24, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> I love how you assume I even use Facebook or 4chan. No, I don't. Once more, you assume everyone who doesn't agree with your world view is somehow some evil troll out to get you. Paranoia, perhaps?



dude seriously?
you think anyone's gonna take your word for that?
you think everyone who reads your post is gonna be so ignornant they won't check back previous posts?
you're downright delusional.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 24, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> dude seriously?
> you think anyone's gonna take your word for that?
> you think everyone who reads your post is gonna be so ignornant they won't check back previous posts?
> you're downright delusional.



No, I don't. However, the truth is but only one way.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> No, I don't. However, the truth is but only one way.



thanks for making me laugh this morning.
honestly we're all having fun at your expense here.

5AM bets are now open.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> thanks for making me laugh this morning.
> honestly we're all having fun at your expense here.
> 
> 5AM bets are now open.



So now you're laughing? So, you're upset that I'm posting, wanting me to stop, calling me a troll, threatened to sick your personal army of e-hackers on me, and yet now you're laughing again. Very conflicting statements and mixed messages here.

That's the thing, I'm not having any expense from this little conversation. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Sam Wamm (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> So now you're laughing? So, you're upset that I'm posting, wanting me to stop, calling me a troll, and yet now you're laughing again. Very conflicting statements and mixed messages here.
> 
> That's the thing, I'm not having any expense from this little conversation. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.



1- i told you. i'm winding you up deliberately for my own entertainment. trolling the trolls.

2- it's way to late to act mature now XD


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> 1- i told you. i'm winding you up deliberately for my own entertainment. trolling the trolls.
> 
> 2- it's way to late to act mature now XD



1.Ah, so basically you're saying you're at fault in this as well. Btw, I'm not trolling you. Apparently having a normal debate and having a difference of opinions means "trolling" in your sad little worldview.

2.On your end, at least. I love a good debate.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 25, 2019)

InfiniteLooper - SpongeBob SquarePants: The Movie 2/10 HD


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> InfiniteLooper - SpongeBob SquarePants: The Movie 2/10 HD



That's nice.


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## Nyro46 (Jun 25, 2019)

Uh, the above things aside . . .
Someone might have mentioned this one already, but there is an anime called "One Stormy Night" (Arashi No Yoru Ni) where one of the main protagonists is a goat that befriends a wolf (and possibly they fall in love with each other? It's never explicitly said and I think left up to interpretation). The goats aren't portrayed in a bad light here.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Nyro46 said:


> Uh, the above things aside . . .
> Someone might have mentioned this one already, but there is an anime called "One Stormy Night" (Arashi No Yoru Ni) where one of the main protagonists is a goat that befriends a wolf (and possibly they fall in love with each other? It's never explicitly said and I think left up to interpretation). The goats aren't portrayed in a bad light here.



See, there's a differentiation from the norm. It's not like you can't have a good goat character. Nobody really would assume a character is bad, just for being a goat. Heck, you could even say Toriel from Undertale is good. Now her son and husband are evil, but she would count.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 25, 2019)

Nyro46 said:


> Uh, the above things aside . . .
> Someone might have mentioned this one already, but there is an anime called "One Stormy Night" (Arashi No Yoru Ni) where one of the main protagonists is a goat that befriends a wolf (and possibly they fall in love with each other? It's never explicitly said and I think left up to interpretation). The goats aren't portrayed in a bad light here.



i don't think anyone suggeted it in this topic yet but yes i already know about that one.

thanks for the contribution. (-^u^-)


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> See, there's a differentiation from the norm. It's not like you can't have a good goat character. Nobody really would assume a character is bad, just for being a goat. Heck, you could even say Toriel from Undertale is good. Now her son and husband are evil, but she would count.



JESUS CHRIST!
are you commenting on topic at last?
do you need to sit down for a moment?
that must have taken a lot out of you.


----------



## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> JESUS CHRIST!
> are you commenting on topic at last?
> do you need to sit down for a moment?
> that must have taken a lot out of you.



I'm fine, thank you for your concern.


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## Keefur (Jun 25, 2019)

Djali from the movie Hunchback of Notre Dame.  Lupe the calming goat from the movie Ferdinand.  Jeb the goat from the movie, Home on the Range.


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## Sam Wamm (Jun 25, 2019)

Keefur said:


> Djali from the movie Hunchback of Notre Dame.  Lupe the calming goat from the movie Ferdinand.  Jeb the goat from the movie, Home on the Range.



All very good suggestions thank you. (-^u^-)

Somebody did mention Jeb in another similar topic to this and I'd forgotten about Djali.

As for Lupe that's a new one. I'll have to check that out.


----------



## Keefur (Jun 25, 2019)

Sam A Wamm said:


> All very good suggestions thank you. (-^u^-)
> 
> Somebody did mention Jeb in another similar topic to this and I'd forgotten about Djali.
> 
> As for Lupe that's a new one. I'll have to check that out.


Cool.


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## Baalf (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> Well, welcome to the internet. Opinions are what fuel forums.



I'd also like to point out that a lot of your opinions aren't really opinions. You claim to have a different outlook on what a villain and a hero is, but at the end of the day, your outlook is still kind of wrong. It's good to have moral greyness in characters, but the perspective of what is considered good and evil is still pretty much set in stone. You can't just say that a character is a hero after slaughtering a bunch of creatures for a week reason by saying "I wanted to see those characters die." People don't relate to a character that does something like that. In general, most people cannot relate to that character. Just because you are one in a thousand people who can relate to that character doesn't make them a hero.

I'm not saying you do or don't relate to a character like that, I was just using that as an example.

Edit: also, who you will see as a hero or villain may contradict what the designer of a certain story intends as the hero or villain.


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## Jaredthefox92 (Jun 25, 2019)

BennyJackdaw said:


> I'd also like to point out that a lot of your opinions aren't really opinions. You claim to have a different outlook on what a villain and a hero is, but at the end of the day, your outlook is still kind of wrong. It's good to have moral greyness in characters, but the perspective of what is considered good and evil is still pretty much set in stone. You can't just say that a character is a hero after slaughtering a bunch of creatures for a week reason by saying "I wanted to see those characters die." People don't relate to a character that does something like that. In general, most people cannot relate to that character. Just because you are one in a thousand people who can relate to that character doesn't make them a hero.
> 
> I'm not saying you do or don't relate to a character like that, I was just using that as an example.
> 
> Edit: also, who you will see as a hero or villain may contradict what the designer of a certain story intends as the hero or villain.



You don't understand what I'm saying, it's not about relating to a character as in "oh they're a good person, so yay for them". I'm not looking for a hero when I look at a villain, only a villain I can understand as to where they went wrong. A villain is a villain, but it's all about the motives and the reason why they were evil in the first place that matters. Sometimes, I'm not even trying to relate to a villain. It's not about relating to a character, but rather understanding how they are. You wouldn't relate to say, Darth Vader, but you do want to understand how they became like that and see their point of view. It's not about saying "oh gee, I am like him". No, stories are escapism and trying to insert your philosophy into a piece of literature or media is silly. It's not about making a villain or hero fit into your world view, but rather to understand the psychological aspect of what makes one bad or good. Also, there are plenty of instances in real life that we call "tough decisions", such as bombing countries in world War 2, dropping the Atomic Bomb, and all the crap that went down in the Cold War. Real life is filled with morally grey decisions, that is where grey fictions and villains you can understand come in. It's not about trying to be or look up to a character, but to rather understand our own life through the practice of escapism and fiction.

True, in fact my character Grief sort was was like that. I never intended for him to be so popular so much as a supporting character until around 2013. However, my stance still stands. The problem with having a hero in the story is that life itself is not filled with heroes, but rather people who have had to made tough decisions for the greater good. Abe Lincoln, Winston Churchill, George S Patton, President Truman, the list goes on to people we idealize. A villain can have great motives, but carry them out piss poorly. Yes, we have 'standards' of what makes a hero and a villain, but if you're looking for media to appeal to what you believe, you're missing the point. The point of villains that are written well is to draw lines with our own humanity and the character to understand them. Darth Vader had noble goals, but he was ruthless and merciless. Handsome Jack saved thousands on one world, and went insane and tried to unleash a monster to murder all of Pandora.


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## Baalf (Jun 25, 2019)

Jaredthefox92 said:


> You don't understand what I'm saying, it's not about relating to a character as in "oh they're a good person, so yay for them". I'm not looking for a hero when I look at a villain, only a villain I can understand as to where they went wrong. A villain is a villain, but it's all about the motives and the reason why they were evil in the first place that matters. Sometimes, I'm not even trying to relate to a villain. It's not about relating to a character, but rather understanding how they are. You wouldn't relate to say, Darth Vader, but you do want to understand how they became like that and see their point of view. It's not about saying "oh gee, I am like him". No, stories are escapism and trying to insert your philosophy into a piece of literature or media is silly. It's not about making a villain or hero fit into your world view, but rather to understand the psychological aspect of what makes one bad or good. Also, there are plenty of instances in real life that we call "tough decisions", such as bombing countries in world War 2, dropping the Atomic Bomb, and all the crap that went down in the Cold War. Real life is filled with morally grey decisions, that is where grey fictions and villains you can understand come in. It's not about trying to be or look up to a character, but to rather understand our own life through the practice of escapism and fiction.
> 
> True, in fact my character Grief sort was was like that. I never intended for him to be so popular so much as a supporting character until around 2013. However, my stance still stands. The problem with having a hero in the story is that life itself is not filled with heroes, but rather people who have had to made tough decisions for the greater good. Abe Lincoln, Winston Churchill, George S Patton, President Truman, the list goes on to people we idealize. A villain can have great motives, but carry them out piss poorly. Yes, we have 'standards' of what makes a hero and a villain, but if you're looking for media to appeal to what you believe, you're missing the point. The point of villains that are written well is to draw lines with our own humanity and the character to understand them. Darth Vader had noble goals, but he was ruthless and merciless. Handsome Jack saved thousands on one world, and went insane and tried to unleash a monster to murder all of Pandora.



 at the end of the day, even if you relate to a villain for their motives, their intentions are still portrayed as bad. The TP was looking for media with characters who is intentions are not supposed to be conceived as bad by whoever is writing them.


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## Koriekraiz13 (Jul 23, 2019)

Hoodwinked........., if anybody heard of it,......... no? I thought so


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