# Bass, Yay or Nay?



## Magikian (Jul 21, 2008)

Ok, lets get this down.

I am a bassist, and am trying to find a band

Now to the point of this thread, Do you think the bass guitar has a good place in Metal, or is it just for lulz?


----------



## Aden (Jul 21, 2008)

I think bass is crucial for any band. It makes the music more interesting, provides "oomph" when needed, and helps keep the EQ balanced.


----------



## Defender (Jul 21, 2008)

They just play the root of whatever powerchord the guitarist is playing. It doesn't do much but fatten the sound up.


----------



## mammagamma (Jul 21, 2008)

Symphony X, Metallica (well, Burton-era metallica...) and Megadeth have bigger roles for bass. (probably are others)

It fattens the sound up, but can also provide a good rhythm (Megadeth's Bad Omen is an example)

Myself, I think that metal bass is quite essential.

Also, Bass solos are fucking awesome.


----------



## thebeast76 (Jul 21, 2008)

Bass is important!
That's all I need to say.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jul 21, 2008)

I wouldn't want to be in a metal band without a bassist!


----------



## Whitenoise (Jul 21, 2008)

Depends on the genre and also band, bass is for the most part criminally  underused, especially in core bands. You'll pretty much be relegated to playing  guitar shadows if you're in one of those, luckily core is shit so no big loss if  avoiding it. A bassist can be quite vital in thrash, just look at Sodom, no lead  guitar. Basically just finding a band that recognises it's importance. Bass  solos are no good in metal though. Don't bother with black metal though, bass  wasn't invited to that party.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 22, 2008)

May not be metal related, but bass is crucial in everything... especially funk...


----------



## Defender (Jul 22, 2008)

jesusfish2007 said:


> May not be metal related, but bass is crucial in everything... especially funk...


Funk without bass is like Earth without an atmosphere.


----------



## Magikian (Jul 22, 2008)

mammagamma said:


> Symphony X, Metallica (well, Burton-era metallica...) and Megadeth have bigger roles for bass. (probably are others)
> 
> It fattens the sound up, but can also provide a good rhythm (Megadeth's Bad Omen is an example)
> 
> ...




I couldn't agree with you more. 

Also, the Bass is crucial if you want to make your song sound "creepy" (I fucking love creepy songs)


----------



## Foxlink (Jul 22, 2008)

Defender said:


> They just play the root of whatever powerchord the guitarist is playing. It doesn't do much but fatten the sound up.



I hate to disagree- however bass is not 'just for powerchords'.  It adds depth to the sound and yes, it does 'fatten' the sound up- but does anyone ever really listen to music anymore?  I mean really listen to it?  If you are talking about rap and the idiotic over and over shot of the same bass chord as music, there's something wrong.  I listen to (and grew up on) classical music, and as much as people would like to argue, Metal, Rock and almost all other types of music are based on the same principles of classical.  

   So yes, bass is needed for the depth of the sound- not just 'fattening it up'.  It helps to balance out the extreme highs that come from the cymbal crashes and the high pitched blasts from the guitar.


----------



## Defender (Jul 22, 2008)

Foxlink said:


> If you are talking about rap and the idiotic over and over shot of the same bass chord as music, there's something wrong.


Because we all know you are the masterful authority that decides what is and isn't music for the rest of all us simpletons.



Foxlink said:


> So yes, bass is needed for the depth of the sound- not just 'fattening it up'.  It helps to balance out the extreme highs that come from the cymbal crashes and the high pitched blasts from the guitar.


I was going to make this point but never got to it. Listening to metal with no bass would be like someone rattling a tin can right in your ear.


----------



## thebeast76 (Jul 22, 2008)

Without bass, we wouldn't have the amazing stylings of Les Claypool from Primus.


----------



## Magikian (Jul 22, 2008)

thebeast76 said:


> Without bass, we wouldn't have the amazing stylings of Les Claypool from Primus.



Or the awesome beard of Shavo Odadjian from S.O.A.D


----------



## Foxlink (Jul 24, 2008)

Defender said:


> Because we all know you are the masterful authority that decides what is and isn't music for the rest of all us simpletons.



Hey now... I never said I was the 'authority' as to what is and isn't music.  I'm sorry that I have a very strong OPINION as to what is and isn't music.  My mom is a music teacher, with a masters in music theory (which she so delightfully forced on me ever since I was very little...)  I do know quite a bit about music.  All I said was that if you were saying that the same bass chord over and over is music, you need to re-define what is and isn't music.  I can pound on drums erratically for ten minutes and call it art, but it certainly wouldn't be music.  The same can be said for ANY instrument.  Also, I never said you were simpletons.


----------



## Magikian (Jul 24, 2008)

*Grabs popcorn*

Let the flame war... BEGIN!


----------



## emptyF (Jul 24, 2008)

what the hell is that guy's name from mudvayne?  he is what all metal bassists should aspire to be (at least i do).  his bass lines add considerable fatness to the power chords as well as supplement the entire sound of the band, often adding a second melody line to the song.


----------



## Defender (Jul 24, 2008)

Foxlink said:


> Hey now... I never said I was the 'authority' as to what is and isn't music.  I'm sorry that I have a very strong OPINION as to what is and isn't music.  My mom is a music teacher, with a masters in music theory (which she so delightfully forced on me ever since I was very little...)  I do know quite a bit about music.  All I said was that if you were saying that the same bass chord over and over is music, you need to re-define what is and isn't music.  I can pound on drums erratically for ten minutes and call it art, but it certainly wouldn't be music.  The same can be said for ANY instrument.  Also, I never said you were simpletons.


I pretty extensively studied music theory both in school and independently, and I still think rap is music. It's actually a perfect example of basso ostinato, where the bass and accompaniment repeat endlessly while the lyrics flow and change over the constant repetition, which gives much hip hop its hypnotic feel. So I think the answer would be shut up.


----------



## valkura (Jul 24, 2008)

emptyF said:


> what the hell is that guy's name from mudvayne?  he is what all metal bassists should aspire to be (at least i do).  his bass lines add considerable fatness to the power chords as well as supplement the entire sound of the band, often adding a second melody line to the song.



Ryan Martinie


----------



## Tudd (Jul 24, 2008)

See epic bass playing here.

If you listen to simply the guitar when the bass sweeping takes place it wouldn't be enough to drive the song through. The bass sweep makes the second half of the song. The guitar riff helps a little too. 

And of course I know who Bootsy Collins is...


----------



## ShaneO))) (Jul 24, 2008)

Thats a big yay. If anyone thinks bass is useless. I will find them and hurt them badly. If you did'nt already figure it out i'm a bassist. My favs are as follows.

Les claypool(derrr)
Tony Levin(king crimson, Liquid tension experiment)
Mike flores(origin)
Colin Edwin(Porcupine tree)
Jeff Caxide(isis)
Martin Mendez(opeth)
Justin Chancellor(tool)

to me you don't have to be technically Magnificent to be a good bassist. Sometimes even the simplest basslines are the best sounding.


----------



## Foxlink (Jul 24, 2008)

Defender said:


> I pretty extensively studied music theory both in school and independently, and I still think rap is music. It's actually a perfect example of basso ostinato, where the bass and accompaniment repeat endlessly while the lyrics flow and change over the constant repetition, which gives much hip hop its hypnotic feel. So I think the answer would be shut up.




"the answer would be shut up"? 

#1- I'm not going to get into a flame war with someone who is 11 years younger than me.

#2- Take a step back and re-read what I posted.  I didn't think I insulted you, and if I did, I apologize.  I stated that I did NOT call you simpletons- you used that term.  

@Magikian- it's a yay for me...


----------



## Whitenoise (Jul 24, 2008)

Of course rap is music, it's just music stripped of the two most important elements of music, those elements being guitar solos and every song being about satan. Naturally the lack of these vital elements has left rap a shambling revenant of a genre forced to feed upon other, more legitimate styles of music in the form of sampling, thus causing a great deal of confusion about whether is can be considered music at all. It is music certainly, in the same sense as a zombie is a person, as in kinda sorta. 
  And there you go, case closed :] .


----------



## Emil (Jul 24, 2008)

No thank you, I prefer tuna


----------



## Defender (Jul 25, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> Of course rap is music, it's just music stripped of the two most important elements of music, those elements being guitar solos and every song being about satan. Naturally the lack of these vital elements has left rap a shambling revenant of a genre forced to feed upon other, more legitimate styles of music in the form of sampling, thus causing a great deal of confusion about whether is can be considered music at all. It is music certainly, in the same sense as a zombie is a person, as in kinda sorta.
> And there you go, case closed :] .


I guess by this logic photo collages are not as legitimate as photography then? And photography is not as legitimate as real life?



			
				Foxlink said:
			
		

> #1- I'm not going to get into a flame war with someone who is 11 years younger than me.
> 
> #2- Take a step back and re-read what I posted. I didn't think I insulted you, and if I did, I apologize. I stated that I did NOT call you simpletons- you used that term.


#1- This is certainly a great reason.

#2- I know you didn't call anyone a simpleton, but it's insulting to your intelligence when you tell someone else to redefine their idea of music, because you're implying they are wrong in an area that is absolutely grey. You may be the big music theory cool guy who is 11 years older than me, but I am pretty sure you are not the grand wizard of art.

P.S. The shut up wasn't meant to be serious. I don't hate you or whatever, I just disagree with you and we can still be friends <3


----------



## Magikian (Jul 25, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> *Of course rap is music, it's just music stripped of the two most important elements of music, those elements being guitar solos and every song being about satan.* Naturally the lack of these vital elements has left rap a shambling revenant of a genre forced to feed upon other, more legitimate styles of music in the form of sampling, thus causing a great deal of confusion about whether is can be considered music at all. It is music certainly, in the same sense as a zombie is a person, as in kinda sorta.
> And there you go, case closed :] .




I agree completely.


----------



## Ak-Nolij (Jul 25, 2008)

Foxlink said:


> I hate to disagree- however bass is not 'just for powerchords'.  It adds depth to the sound and yes, it does 'fatten' the sound up- but does anyone ever really listen to music anymore?  I mean really listen to it?  If you are talking about rap and the idiotic over and over shot of the same bass chord as music, there's something wrong.  I listen to (and grew up on) classical music, and as much as people would like to argue, Metal, Rock and almost all other types of music are based on the same principles of classical.
> 
> So yes, bass is needed for the depth of the sound- not just 'fattening it up'.  It helps to balance out the extreme highs that come from the cymbal crashes and the high pitched blasts from the guitar.





Foxlink said:


> Hey now... I never said I was the 'authority' as to what is and isn't music.  I'm sorry that I have a very strong OPINION as to what is and isn't music.  My mom is a music teacher, with a masters in music theory (which she so delightfully forced on me ever since I was very little...)  I do know quite a bit about music.  All I said was that if you were saying that the same bass chord over and over is music, you need to re-define what is and isn't music.  I can pound on drums erratically for ten minutes and call it art, but it certainly wouldn't be music.  The same can be said for ANY instrument.  Also, I never said you were simpletons.



I believe you can say the same for such genres such as Funk, Soul, Pop, R&B and Reggae/Dancehall than just for Hip Hop/Rap fyi. And Rock. And Country. And Blues.

-Nolij


----------



## Shade Koba (Jul 25, 2008)

okay, i play bass too and all I have to say is...

Defender, you phail!

Bass, in my opinion, should rarely or NEVER just follow roots of what the guitar plays, or any other instrument plays. That leads to chances of parrellel 4ths, 5ths, and octaves.
Actually Bass should much rather be playing an alternate harmony to the guitar or other instruments. It adds a cool backdrop in the song and still gives that thump =D

Plus, almost every band has at least one song that has almost nothing BUT bass line =D

Queen- Another One Bites the Dust
Gorillaz- Feel Good Inc
Queens of the Stone Age- No One Knows

Anyways, metal NEEDS bass to thrive. Look at any good Metal Band's most popular songs, and I'm sure you'll see that every single one of them has LOADS of bass. If there's no bass, the band sounds like complete and utter crap, and should burn through the fire and flames D=<

NOTE MY REFRENCE OF DRAGONFORCE I PWN KTHX! =D


----------



## Magikian (Jul 25, 2008)

Shade Koba said:


> okay, i play bass too and all I have to say is...
> 
> Defender, you phail!
> 
> ...



God, I couldn't agree more.

Also:
DDEVIL - System of a Down
Kill Greedy - Lollipop Lust Kill
Etc, etc.


----------



## Defender (Jul 25, 2008)

Shade Koba said:


> Defender, you phail!


Wat.

Dude, I play bass and I never just double the roots because that's dumb. I just mentioned it because _it is something I heard a lot of _in metal as well as hardcore punk. It isn't bad and I never said it was awesome either, I just mentioned that it did, in fact, exist like that.


----------



## hillbilly guy (Jul 25, 2008)

the song black sunshine comes to mind with out bass thare wouldnt be a song it holds it together


----------



## Whitenoise (Jul 25, 2008)

Defender said:


> I guess by this logic photo collages are not as legitimate as photography then? And photography is not as legitimate as real life?



 Certainly not, but it does make a photograph of a photograph less legitimate  then the photograph it's self, especially if the emotional content or thought  provoking social commentary within the original photograph is replaced by  ignorant shit about parties and fucking. Also piggybacking off the success of  the original photograph that the original photographer toiled over by slapping  together a cheap inferior copy is about the least artistically legitimate thing  I can think of.

  Also I agree that limiting the bass lines to guitar shadows it kind of  pointless. I wish more metal bands would utilize the bass in an actual melodic  sense rather then just using it to thicken up the rhythm guitar.


----------



## Defender (Jul 25, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> Certainly not, but it does make a photograph of a photograph less legitimate  then the photograph it's self, especially if the emotional content or thought  provoking social commentary within the original photograph is replaced by  ignorant shit about parties and fucking. Also piggybacking off the success of  the original photograph that the original photographer toiled over by slapping  together a cheap inferior copy is about the least artistically legitimate thing  I can think of.


But the backing track of a rap song is usually very small parts of several songs chopped and rearranged in layers into a new thing. How is this different from a photo collage made of snippings of other photos? And what if the message of the rap song is throught provoking and socially positive? And what if the samples are taken from songs that were never popular, or samples that are not instantly recognizable as a key part to a hit song? If a rap song is sampled from many sources rearranged in an entirely new way, does that make it more legitimate than a cover that is just a straightforward recreation of another song?


----------



## Whitenoise (Jul 25, 2008)

Defender said:


> But the backing track of a rap song is usually very small parts of several songs chopped and rearranged in layers into a new thing. How is this different from a photo collage made of snippings of other photos? And what if the message of the rap song is throught provoking and socially positive? And what if the samples are taken from songs that were never popular, or samples that are not instantly recognizable as a key part to a hit song? If a rap song is sampled from many sources rearranged in an entirely new way, does that make it more legitimate than a cover that is just a straightforward recreation of another song?



Sadly in all the rap songs where other songs were sampled that I've encountered this has not been the case. They just take an old hit and piggyback off of it, which bothers the crap out of me. Also making a collage out of other people's photographic art is something I'm not sure I could respect, at least not as much as the collage artist taking the pictures themselves. This might be because the things I create are so personal to me, I don't know, but I've never liked the whole notion of it. 

Also I don't like covers, especially when bands or individuals use them to pad the run time of their albums. Most of the more sophisticated black and doom metal studio projects and bands don't include covers on their albums since the album is meant to be taken as a whole rather then just a collection of songs, and covers would bugger up the flow. When they do tack one on I have to take it off the playlist when I listen to the album, drives me freaking mental.

Also why can't rap be bothered to make it's own melodies?  You can create that collage effect with original material easily, seems to be  how most techno works.


----------



## Defender (Jul 25, 2008)

Whitenoise said:


> Sadly in all the rap songs where other songs were sampled that I've encountered this has not been the case. They just take an old hit and piggyback off of it, which bothers the crap out of me.


This makes me think you either have not heard more than a couple rap songs or have just heard those awful songs where they take an Aerosmith song and rap. Most rappers prefer beats and melodies from obscure artists from all over the world, as well as television.



Whitenoise said:


> Also why can't rap be bothered to make it's own melodies?  You can create that collage effect with original material easily, seems to be  how most techno works.


In most poor black neighborhoods of the 1970's and 1980's, people were too poor to buy the instruments and pay for lessons to learn to play them. In order to find a constructive and artistic outlet for their frustrations with poverty and racism, the only real option most of them had was to loop an instrumental beat and hit some scratching while speaking their minds. It's gotten more sophisticated over time with technology allowing for more and more layering, but it's gotten stuck as a defining feature of the genre.

Some groups like The Roots are full bands with rapping, The Beastie Boys (who began as a hardcore punk band) played their own music on a good handful of songs and even made a full instrumental album, and A Tribe Called Quest features live upright bass played on some of their studio recordings. The RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan has written music for movie soundtracks (Including Kill Bill) and Del tha Funkee Homosapien wrote most of the material on his newest album, or so I've been told. While not ALL rappers or rap crews branch out beyond sampling, there are some that do. It's really just a genre staple at this point with roots in important emotions and times that's so deeply ingrained that it's not likely to leave anytime soon.


----------



## Aden (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh hay guiz. Make your own damn thread.


----------



## Whitenoise (Jul 25, 2008)

Defender said:


> This makes me think you either have not heard more than a couple rap songs or have just heard those awful songs where they take an Aerosmith song and rap. Most rappers prefer beats and melodies from obscure artists from all over the world, as well as television.



 I've heard more then a couple but only when they're on the radio or TV, it  wouldn't surprise me at all if the worst, most ignorant rap is what gets played  the most though, as this would be something our respective genres have in  common. The only case I've heard of of an underground artist being sampled was a  while back when a musician from india discovered to his dismay that one of his  songs had been sampled by some ignorant cunt and she hadn't bothered to inform  him, let alone pay him royalties. This soured me on the concept even more.



Defender said:


> In most poor black neighborhoods of the 1970's and 1980's, people were too poor to buy the instruments and pay for lessons to learn to play them. In order to find a constructive and artistic outlet for their frustrations with poverty and racism, the only real option most of them had was to loop an instrumental beat and hit some scratching while speaking their minds. It's gotten more sophisticated over time with technology allowing for more and more layering, but it's gotten stuck as a defining feature of the genre.



That's certainly understandable, and if that integrity was still intact it  wouldn't bother me as much, but I'm pretty sure multi-millionaires can afford a  keyboard lesson or two rather then taking a big auto-filating shit all over  someone else's music. 



Defender said:


> Some groups like The Roots are full bands with rapping, The Beastie Boys (who began as a hardcore punk band) played their own music on a good handful of songs and even made a full instrumental album, and A Tribe Called Quest features live upright bass played on some of their studio recordings. The RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan has written music for movie soundtracks (Including Kill Bill) and Del tha Funkee Homosapien wrote most of the material on his newest album, or so I've been told. While not ALL rappers or rap crews branch out beyond sampling, there are some that do.



I would like to see more of this, even though the aesthetic holds no appeal to  me, I can respect is on an artistic level.


----------



## Whitenoise (Jul 25, 2008)

Aden said:


> Oh hay guiz. Make your own damn thread.



You're right of course, I've started a new thread so please to respond there Defender.


----------



## Magikian (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm not sure if I should feel proud or not...


----------



## Foxlink (Jul 26, 2008)

Magikian said:


> I'm not sure if I should feel proud or not...



Why do you say that?  My brother is a bassist and he is in a metal band- he has a Warwick 6 string, and I love the sound from it- whether it's from his rock, jazz or heavy metal.


----------



## Magikian (Jul 26, 2008)

No, I managed to start a thread on bass, and got a massive argument...


----------



## Aden (Jul 26, 2008)

Magikian said:


> No, I managed to start a thread on bass, and got a massive argument...



Welcome to the internet. Take solace in the fact that the thread hasn't been Godwin'd.

/Yet.


----------

