# How does one defect from their faction? Multiple times



## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm stumped with this one.

I have a character that believe to do the right things, and so he joined faction, made to a very high rank in that faction, later second faction convert him with reason, so he joined second faction, and become trusty member.
Later, one of his friend on second faction, have an incident, which lead to another change to third faction.

The question is how another faction accept him.
Also how he changes faction when he's well-known, just remove possible outfits and everyone thinks he is no longer in that faction?

Factions details below.

By the way, all 3 factions are not friendly to each others, and he isn't mercenary.

Any advice or example?


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't understand


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## RestlessDreamer (Jan 16, 2015)

Nor do I. Could you rephrase the issue please? I'd love to help out.


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## -Sliqq- (Jan 16, 2015)

Because the guy's a badass. Case closed.


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## Plastic-Fox (Jan 16, 2015)

Multiple Faction changes would impact trust and cause issues I believe. The animosity between factions is what will really define the switches. Unless of course one faction knows about the switch and sends that character undercover.


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 16, 2015)

Sorry, I should have made things clearer, I'll try to write as clear as possible.

I have a character that believe to do the right things, and so he joined faction, made to a very high rank in that faction, later second faction convert him with reason, so he joined second faction, and become trusty member.
Later, one of his friend on second faction, have an incident, which lead to another change to third faction.

The question is how another faction accept him.
Also how he changes faction when he's well-known, just remove possible outfits and everyone thinks he is no longer in that faction?

By the way, all 3 factions are not friendly to each others, and he isn't mercenary.



-Sliqq- said:


> Because the guy's a badass. Case closed.


Now that you mention it, but he need to be trusted.



Plastic-Fox said:


> Multiple Faction changes would impact trust and cause issues I believe. The animosity between factions is what will really define the switches. Unless of course one faction knows about the switch and sends that character undercover.


That's the problem I'm having.


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## TriSAR (Jan 16, 2015)

The only way he could do it (as far as my small brain goes) is if he adopts new identities to go with the new places in his society. Other than that, I don't see how he could. Since he's already a 'high-ranked' official in the first faction, he'd possibly be already marked by the other two (or subsequent) factions.

So, yeah. IMO, identity change. Either that or the head of the next faction is his close childhood friend which he lost a long time ago and they have strong feelings for each other (as well as not care about the politics within the faction itself).


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## ArmorcladCoyote (Jan 16, 2015)

Switching sides to a faction that a person was formerly hostel towards is not easily done. For starters, a defector will be treated with large amounts of scrutiny to make sure they true do wish to join and are not just spies. Next, even if the command does believe that the character truly does intend to aid them, there will be animosity from the fact that he was high ranking member of the first faction. He made decisions that caused the death, if not more direct involvement, of friends of the second and third factions' members. That is not easily forgiven.

While I can see it as possible to have a faction change keeping the same identity one time, creating a new identity is the only way I can think to make a believable change from faction two to three. At that point he'll be known as a traitor to the first faction. By betraying the second, the third would probably see him as unreliable, if not completely untrustworthy, and thus unlikely to even accept him at even the lowest level. Unless faction three is chaotic, disorganized, and desperate I don't see them being even half as willing to accept him as faction two.



My sleep deprived mind can't come up with any true heroes that make multiple side switches where they agree with the factions policies. The best example I can think of right now is a Star Wars expanded universe story that I remember hearing a bit about. A high ranking Imperial Army leader switched sides to the Rebel Alliance. (You'll have to pardon me being a little hazy as I haven't read it myself.) She was not well accepted at the beginning and had to deal with many of her new allies being friends and family to people she had killed on the battlefield. Although she was their ally, if it weren't for the information she knew and her experience, they would have rather her be dead.


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## Maugryph (Jan 16, 2015)

KrysleQuinsen said:


> Sorry, I should have made things clearer, I'll try to write as clear as possible.
> 
> I have a character that believe to do the right things, and so he joined faction, made to a very high rank in that faction, later second faction convert him with reason, so he joined second faction, and become trusty member.
> Later, one of his friend on second faction, have an incident, which lead to another change to third faction.
> ...


Simplify.
Why can't he just leave the first faction because of the incident and  join the 2nd one. Axe the idea of him joining a third one. That's just too much. Having the character being high ranking in the first  faction would make it difficult for him to join any other faction. How would he gain the 2nd faction's trust?


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 16, 2015)

TriSAR said:


> The only way he could do it (as far as my small brain goes) is if he adopts new identities to go with the new places in his society. Other than that, I don't see how he could. Since he's already a 'high-ranked' official in the first faction, he'd possibly be already marked by the other two (or subsequent) factions.
> 
> So, yeah. IMO, identity change. Either that or the head of the next faction is his close childhood friend which he lost a long time ago and they have strong feelings for each other (as well as not care about the politics within the faction itself).





ArmorcladCoyote said:


> Switching sides to a faction that a person was formerly hostel towards is not easily done. For starters, a defector will be treated with large amounts of scrutiny to make sure they true do wish to join and are not just spies. Next, even if the command does believe that the character truly does intend to aid them, there will be animosity from the fact that he was high ranking member of the first faction. He made decisions that caused the death, if not more direct involvement, of friends of the second and third factions' members. That is not easily forgiven.
> 
> While I can see it as possible to have a faction change keeping the same identity one time, creating a new identity is the only way I can think to make a believable change from faction two to three. At that point he'll be known as a traitor to the first faction. By betraying the second, the third would probably see him as unreliable, if not completely untrustworthy, and thus unlikely to even accept him at even the lowest level. Unless faction three is chaotic, disorganized, and desperate I don't see them being even half as willing to accept him as faction two.
> 
> ...


Never thought about identity change or hiding,  he probably has to hid identity from first faction well enough, perhaps name changing, declared MIA/KIA, or perhaps everyone only knows him by name/codename and never seen his real face or something. So third faction think he never joined first faction and just defected from second once, or never joined any at all.

Perhaps, he leaves and doesn't join third but instead help third faction indirectly?
As you said, unless third faction is chaotic or probably villain-ish faction, I think they will accept anyone, some story even accept criminal after all.



Maugryph said:


> Simplify.
> Why can't he just leave the first faction because of the incident and  join the 2nd one. Axe the idea of him joining a third one. That's just too much. Having the character being high ranking in the first  faction would make it difficult for him to join any other faction. How would he gain the 2nd faction's trust?


From first faction to second is probably easy I think, as I'd seen in warfare story when one get capture and convert, spared and repaid or something. Well, even assassin or known spy joined another faction in some story.
But then again, it's from first to second not second to thrid.


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## Plastic-Fox (Jan 16, 2015)

Sounds complicated at the least. Maybe you could post what you have thus far to give us a better opinion to give you. So far sounds very Game of Thrones with all the factions and character transfers between factions.


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 17, 2015)

Plastic-Fox said:


> Sounds complicated at the least. Maybe you could post what you have thus far to give us a better opinion to give you. So far sounds very Game of Thrones with all the factions and character transfers between factions.


Sorry, but I don't have a chance to write story yet, gaming related stuff too much.

I never read about Game of Thrones though.


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## Crabcake McHaggis (Jan 18, 2015)

Maybe you should start by identifying your factions.  What are their objectives and ideals?  What do the factions have in common?  How deep is their rivalry?  What position does your main character hold within his original faction?  How do his ideals compare with that of the other factions.  

A natural transition between factions becomes a lot easier if their rivalry isn't all that serious. Though you could always expand upon their rivalry as the story progresses.   Nor is he going to join a faction willingly if their ideals  greatly contradict his own.  Not without some hefty extenuating  circumstances or by making him an unwilling convert.

But without knowing more about your story, all we can really do is spout out random ideas.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 18, 2015)

Changing faction three times mean he has one hell of a loyalty issue.

Usually, the first one is the hardest. Most of the iconic characters will

1) Refuse to leave and try to change the inside then either succeed or get assassinated
2) Find out what they believe all along was lies and switched to the 2nd one which they believe is now the right choice
3) Commit suicide in the name of honor.

Assuming they don't choose to serve the lord and master no matter what.

But on the 2nd one, if they are to change again.....

Lol no they won't. Loyalty issue is a huge problem.  It creates an extremely bad image. You don't get that "Badass do whatever he wants" image. You get the "Indecisive person who doesn't believe in anything or himself and is too unreliable." No one wants that kind of person around. If his friend on the second decide to switch, said person should be ready to cut down his friend for what he believes in. War is no place for mercy and tea party.

Identity change depends on how you want to use it. If a well-known general converts, his name is now a force to be reckoned with by the 1st faction. If said person just wants to live in peace then kill his identity and move him into the mountain. Family and house name + history isn't something you just go "Oh. He changes. Bye. Poof." In a state of "peace", you can try and erase the identities. In the state of war, they are weapon.

And hi fellow Thai citizen.


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 19, 2015)

Zeitzbach said:


> Changing faction three times mean he has one hell of a loyalty issue.
> 
> Usually, the first one is the hardest. Most of the iconic characters will
> 
> ...


Or they go and make their own faction, overall are true though, but I'm still wondering how one change back and forth, think Three Kingdoms.



Crabcake McHaggis said:


> Maybe you should start by identifying your factions. What are their objectives and ideals? What do the factions have in common? How deep is their rivalry? What position does your main character hold within his original faction? How do his ideals compare with that of the other factions.
> 
> A natural transition between factions becomes a lot easier if their rivalry isn't all that serious. Though you could always expand upon their rivalry as the story progresses. Nor is he going to join a faction willingly if their ideals greatly contradict his own. Not without some hefty extenuating circumstances or by making him an unwilling convert.
> 
> But without knowing more about your story, all we can really do is spout out random ideas.


While I gather random idea to see a potential idea to write about. But you're right, I should explain factions as well, because defection could be simple than I thought with their goals.

So here's my 3 major factions, while I didn't explain lore yet, I'll try to explain as clear as possible.

First faction is the most powerful in the world, have large city, region borders, and integrated in town or camp all over the place.
Lawful, organized, rank-based, and tax, but rather autocracy (or something?), closed mind, and lot of papers.
this faction seek bring order and to establish safety in untamed world also invading nature.
this faction majority are Humans and very racism and only accept Humans and civilized anthro races, leaving others out, and not even accept as citizen, and especially see all Dimaeros as dangerous monster.

Second faction is founded after first faction after some time, after dictatorship, racism and expansion of first faction goes out of control, hidden in plains sight with multiple small hideout.
this faction is believe in freedom and honor, but unorganized, control by power and can create collateral damage depends on raiders.
this faction seek to spread freedom and liberate city from first faction's rules.
this faction has less racism, but accepted as long as they are willing to work with leader's ambition, or else.

Third faction founded last, this faction grown in secretly when others faction is busy beating each others, have one large city.
this faction believe in knowledge and experience, and give knowledge if one is seeking, also rather nature-loving and conservative, but rather selfish when offering protection, unless one joined them.
this faction seek to equalization with all races, so everyone have no rank, with veteran and leaders are an advisor.
this faction encourage Dimaeros to undergo their mutation rather than prevent it, which increases monster and less safety world.
this faction is very open minded and accept anyone, as long as they are OK to treat Dimaeros equality, live with monsters and being lead by beast (this faction founded and lead by intelligence beast, which generally unaccepted by most)

By the way, this character is a lawful good that believe to do right thighs and whatever is best for overall. He isn't Dimaeros, but a civilized anthro race. So he doesn't defect mainly because of Dimaeros's hatred.
First faction's rank: Mix of covertly Agent and Royal Guard.
Second's rank: Agent and raider.

They're not complete and faction writing aren't my field, and I hope I provide enough detail (possibly too much), not too lore dependence and conflicts with themselves, especially third faction.
Also if you found anything weird I'll try to explain and fix it.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jan 19, 2015)

He doesn't.

I don't think any military would allow people to jump back and forth opposing forces and join theirs like it was a non-issue.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 19, 2015)

KrysleQuinsen said:


> Or they go and make their own faction, overall are true though, but I'm still wondering how one change back and forth, think Three Kingdoms.



-Get famous
-Approach the leader somehow or lose a fight and is approached by the leader
-Some random speech and here about how he want to change side or the leader goes "I will give you a chance"
-Insert random test of loyalty
-Tadah! New faction.

Another one is to work as a spy but then decided to stick with it when he had to choose whether to go back or betray his original faction.

And from the look of it

Faction one is the strongest but also most ruthless
Faction two is kind of like Shu from 3 kingdoms. Weaker but more caring.
Faction three is really.. eehhh

Faction one to two is the most normal option using the cheesy "THIS IS WRONG! BYE!" change. Faction two to one is possible if some mistake caused a huge loss so he wanted to be really strong badly but that's a villain route.  Faction three just doesn't work and should serve as an option for Faction one to completely destroy in order for the plot to move.


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 19, 2015)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> He doesn't.
> 
> I don't think any military would allow people to jump back and forth opposing forces and join theirs like it was a non-issue.


Only first faction is using military style though.



Zeitzbach said:


> -Get famous
> -Approach the leader somehow or lose a fight and is approached by the leader
> -Some random speech and here about how he want to change side or the leader goes "I will give you a chance"
> -Insert random test of loyalty
> ...


Haha, of course, with those steps, and spy, I think I can confirmed the first switch now.

For third faction, as you can see is rather weird in point of view (Monstervile?), and I think I forget something about it and can't get it right for now. 
This faction has high dependency on lore, and needed to stay in the war, plot wise, as as important characters are there or linked to. They are defensive and few in number but strongest though.

All in all, let's say his ideals matched the third most, but how he will join and accepted, with earlier switches, I don't that it will work this time?


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 19, 2015)

KrysleQuinsen said:


> Only first faction is using military style though.
> 
> 
> Haha, of course, with those steps, and spy, I think I can confirmed the first switch now.
> ...



It's best you ditch the idea of a 2nd switch. Even the cheesiest of the cheese follows the A B A pattern with some random "I never betrayed you guy but I had to fool you into thinking I am" moments because that's the only way to logically pull it off.

Switch from A to B : He had a change of heart and finally found the true path!
Switch from B to C : Can we seriously even trust this guy now? He just found his third true path. No guarantee he will betray us again.

There's no way he can really go into a new faction on his 2nd betrayal unless he's the one that found it. For him to switch from B to C, B has to be destroyed and C has to get all "I will destroy A" with the character going "Even if B is over, the soul and ambition still lives on so let us work together to deal with a common foe, C."

Because really, switch from A to B, A is now on his tail. Switch from B to C, B is now also on his tail. Making a foe out of 80-90% of the entire population is a big no-no unless you're going for the "Army of One" sue route.


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 19, 2015)

Zeitzbach said:


> It's best you ditch the idea of a 2nd switch. Even the cheesiest of the cheese follows the A B A pattern with some random "I never betrayed you guy but I had to fool you into thinking I am" moments because that's the only way to logically pull it off.
> 
> Switch from A to B : He had a change of heart and finally found the true path!
> Switch from B to C : Can we seriously even trust this guy now? He just found his third true path. No guarantee he will betray us again.
> ...


Can't agree enough.

However, as you pointed out, he rather founded C himself.
What about, he have a part of founding C, so if he help founding C, or possibly something like rescue C's founder will this work?


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 19, 2015)

KrysleQuinsen said:


> Can't agree enough.
> 
> However, as you pointed out, he rather founded C himself.
> What about, he have a part of founding C, so if he help founding C, or possibly something like rescue C's founder will this work?



Hard part is why would he help found C or help the C's founder in the first place. He changed from Black to White when he moved from A to B. To change from B to C means C is in the gray zone. If you mess up even once, it will create a huge plot hole or a fault in the MC's personality. A person with a gray personality is also likely just to be a side character.


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## KrysleQuinsen (Jan 19, 2015)

Zeitzbach said:


> Hard part is why would he help found C or help the C's founder in the first place. He changed from Black to White when he moved from A to B. To change from B to C means C is in the gray zone. If you mess up even once, it will create a huge plot hole or a fault in the MC's personality. A person with a gray personality is also likely just to be a side character.


Good thing I tried to make all characters and factions as grey as possible, in reasonable way of course. I think I could find the reason for him to helping C, but I need to extremely careful about it, unless there's a better route though.
Also, this is not MC, but rather important character, and this is story about him, something.


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## Zeitzbach (Jan 20, 2015)

I'ma just suggest you map out his entire path, route, story and personality first with some hypothetical route first along with the effect of him moving around before proceeding with it. You might end up changing it in the end. A lot of my chars have their arc planned out at first that later turned out to be too dumb or crazy and were adjusted to become a lot less extreme while also making sure it allows future events to unfold so people that read it twice can go "Oh. it was mentioned here!"


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