# Humans or no humans in a furry story



## Art Vulpine (Nov 15, 2008)

Ok all.

I'm at a crossroads here with creating my story.

While my fantasy series does include furries, the problem I have is whether or not I should include humans as a second race. 

(Note: Furry in my stories are a race and each animal type is a subrace).

So should I...

Have just furries, no humans?

Have furries with humans as a minority? (Meaning they would be as small as a subrace, not an actual race).

Have an equal population or humans and furries?

This will be a big help for me.

Sage Fox


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## Roland (Nov 15, 2008)

I can't really give you an answer to your question, but I can give you an example, I suppose.  

I've got a story going where humans and furries exist on the same plane as each other.  The furry population is sizable, but not to the extent of the humans.  The humans exist because their purpose is critical.  There would be no story without them. 

The question you should be asking yourself is if the humans are really an integral part of your story, or whether or not you can do with out them.  Ultimately, the choice is up to you, but if you're going to have humans and they serve no purpose to the plot what so ever, you might as well keep it strictly fantasy with no humans.


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## duroc (Nov 15, 2008)

I agree with Roland.  If you put humans in your story, they really do need a purpose.  Personally, I like putting humans in stories with "furry" characters, because I like the contrast it provides between the two.  I think it helps to make the "furry" characters stand out more, and it can make their distinct animal traits even more important to the story.


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## Cryoforion (Nov 16, 2008)

Ditto on the above. I'm a fan of writing for effect--do nothing unless it adds to the effect you want to produce in your audience. So, whatever effect you want the story to achieve--if a human faction would contribute to it, go for it. But if you can't find a specific reason, a specific dynamic a human race would create (one that contributes to the overall turn of the story), I'd leave them out.


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## Art Vulpine (Nov 19, 2008)

Thanks.

I've been weighing my options.

Humans would serve a purpose as an other race that the furries would be forced to live with and interact with.

On one hand I can just have furries and the different subraces (Foxes, Skunks, Cheetahs) could interact with each other on the basis of race, ideals, etc.

Yet, humans are an entirely different race from the furs. They can think, act, and believe different than the furs.

I believe I will include the humans, although they will not be in my first story and they will for a while be a minority until their population increases.

Thanks again!

Part 2 of my world building (Races) will now commence.


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## dsand101 (Nov 20, 2008)

I am a firm believer in the Cause and Effect theory when it comes to anthro writings that include humans.  A lot of times I've come across stories that just drop humans and anthros in one place and see what happens, with little or no development.  I tend to try and give a reason for humans to be in an anthro story, either if it is to explain the existence of anthros, or vice-versa.  To me, there is no clear set rules carved in stone, everyone should go what that they feel is right.  That is all I can say on the matter, I'm no expert, just offering some sage advice.  Cheers.


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## Jax (Nov 23, 2008)

dsand101 said:


> I am a firm believer in the Cause and Effect theory when it comes to anthro writings that include humans.  A lot of times I've come across stories that just drop humans and anthros in one place and see what happens, with little or no development.  I tend to try and give a reason for humans to be in an anthro story, either if it is to explain the existence of anthros, or vice-versa.  To me, there is no clear set rules carved in stone, everyone should go what that they feel is right.  That is all I can say on the matter, I'm no expert, just offering some sage advice.  Cheers.



Quite right! If the humans are meant to be there...you will not stop them. Do not force them in there unless you feel their place. 
My current project did not engage humans until the very end of the first story. Suddenly I found they were critical, and the whole thing shifted. There are only a few main characters who are human, but as much as they contrast  (Humans and the character species Sanalie) They also complement each other. Maybe it would be better to say they complete each other. 
Being around a Sanalie just changes a human...makes them better. Since the humans are marines and a doc, and a WWII RAF pilot, it became clear that they learned each others strengths and weaknesses and that made them both stronger. Unintended consequence in this story was a matter of seeing the heart despite the fur...or lack of it.
I also wrote with the belief that my Sanalie did not get there humanity from us...we got it from them. Ya know on paper that sounds like it makes no sense...but it works for me.

Oh...I just saw something Dsand101...Brilliant! [I tend to try and give a reason for humans to be in an anthro story, either if it is to explain the existence of anthros, or vice-versa.] Yes...in this case they explain human existence.

Inari85 I would add that do not be afraid to exclude humans if they do not add to your plot and your furry characters. You will know if it feels right...Now start splashing ink on the paper


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## FurryWurry (Nov 23, 2008)

Jax said:
			
		

> Now start splashing ink on the paper:smile:



or photons on screen ;3


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## Xaerun (Nov 23, 2008)

Humans are always a good thing to add. Be it for comedic reasons or whatever (human overlords, oppressing the nation?)

I'd go for it.


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## Art Vulpine (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks again!

Right now I'm laying the ground work for the series (world building, race design, economy, magical system, etc.)

This ground work stage, though not necessary, will help me immensely later on as I can just refer to them when I need to check my information.

I should be finished by December.

Then I'll begin the story.

Sage Fox


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## byssej (Nov 24, 2008)

When you're done, notify me. I'd love to read it.


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## ScottyDM (Nov 28, 2008)

Races or species?

Races are part of the same species--fully compatible, same diet, same diseases, able to crossbreed, etc. Examples would be poodles and cocker spaniels or Europeans and Africans (in humans).

Species are only rarely genetically compatible and in the instances they can crossbreed their offspring are often infertile. They also probably have quite different needs for food, territory, and shelter. Examples would be horses and donkeys (possible cross, but infertile) or coyotes and foxes (crossbreeding is impossible). Still, sometimes different species can form relationships that even includes sexual relations. This would probably be more likely if they had human-like intelligence rather than relying on instinct.

Can you write logical story with humanoid animals where the different types truly are races?

Sure. Let's say your creatures all started as human, then animal genes were added to the human genome to produce that race. Since the result is still probably 98% human and the chromosome structure matches human structure, viable crosses should be possible in most instances. With this sort of storyworld a genetic throwback may be born without fur or lacking some other trait of their race. It might even become interesting if you killed off all the humans generations earlier, and threw in some sort of cataclysmic event that destroyed old records and forced the survivors to concentrate on survival and forget history. A genetic throwback could be feared or revered as a god.

As to your original question: You should do what your story requires.

Scotty


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## Art Vulpine (Nov 28, 2008)

Thanks again for your advice!

In my story the furry-esque creatures will be classified according to a species structure just like animal families found on Earth (Example: felines, canines, etc.) and individual races (Example: Foxes, Cheetahs, Skunks, etc). While there will be relationships and mating between two people within a species or even outside a species, the offspring's race will be dependent on the male's race. 

Say a male skunk furry falls in love with and has a child with a female zebra furry. The offspring physically will be a skunk. Personality will be a blend of the male's and female's. 

There won't be any crossbreeds.


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## ScottyDM (Nov 30, 2008)

Okay, I'm gonna beat you up a bit on this because *in another thread you wrote that you were interested in pushing your stories out beyond the fandom and into the mainstream.* What you're suggesting (at least the way I understand it) is perfectly acceptable to the fandom, and it's perfectly acceptable for mainstream children's literature, but it would never fly in mainstream adult literature. Not even sci-fi/fantasy (which is a fairly tiny market, BTW).

There seems to be a tradition in the fandom to create storyworlds that are similar to FurryMUCK. That is there are countless species and hybrids yet they all seem to be so similar they can freely interact, mate, etc. Species are chosen/created on whim. E.g. "My persona is a purple skunk/fox with bat wings and sparkles." Why? Because the creator likes purple skunk/foxes with bat wings and sparkles.

A good example is the "Sabrinaverse" of stories. Now I will happily read stories set in the Sabrinaverse, if they are reasonably written (James Bruner, start writing again please). However, I can't imagine a professional acquisitions editor at any publisher, other than a "furry" publisher, buying any such story. The big reason is the editor probably couldn't see why the characters in the stories should be anything but human.

Let me stop a moment to clarify something: *If you're writing for the fandom and not the mainstream--then feel free to ignore this advice.*




Inari85 said:


> In my story the furry-esque creatures will be classified according to a species structure just like animal families found on Earth (Example: felines, canines, etc.) and individual races (Example: Foxes, Cheetahs, Skunks, etc). While there will be relationships and mating between two people within a species or even outside a species, the offspring's race will be dependent on the male's race.


Why? Why do you have multiple species? What are their roles in your story? Are those roles unique, or are your species interchangeable? Rather than ask, "Should I put humans in my story?" Ask yourself, "What does my story need?"

To get back to my statement about tradition in the fandom: Species as race is a FurryMUCK concept; in reality species are species. Also, it is a direct violation of the principles of genetics to have the offspring take after only one parent. There are logical ways around these limitations, but you need to create these logical means during world building. Parthenogenesis is a possibility.



Inari85 said:


> Say a male skunk furry falls in love with and has a child with a female zebra furry. The offspring physically will be a skunk. Personality will be a blend of the male's and female's.


Then he wasn't really a skunk and she wasn't really a zebra. The two species have radically different diets, require different habitats, use different body language and have different pheromones, have different mating systems (seasons, etc.), have vastly different social systems, probably have different religions, won't be able to agree on what sort of house they want or what neighborhood to live in, and will probably even disagree on what sort of plants to put in the yard or what sort of vehicle to drive.

As humans we miss a lot because we have limited hearing and a damned poor sense of smell. We communicate via speech and body language and scent is a distant last place. Even so, imagine the problems a human would have communicating with an alien squid-person, even if both had a common verbal language and poor sense of smell--the body language would be all wrong. "Is she lying to me?" or, "Did he just insult me?" Now add to that the third language of scent. If she doesn't look right, act right, or smell right, then how will he know she's in the mood, or get into the mood himself?

To get back to your example of a skunk with a zebra. Neither species is particularly known for it's flexible behaviors or social systems, and zebras are not particularly flexible in diet. In other words, a coyote or human would have a better chance of learning to love, and live with, a partner of a different species than a zebra or skunk would.

Again, there are logical ways around these limitations. E.g. my suggestion to include genetic engineering somewhere in the past (as part of your world building). Start with humans and add in a few skunk or zebra genes to make skunk-people and zebra-people. But then you're up against the idea that these two characters are not really very skunky or zebraey. With some thought you could probably come up with a better idea.



Inari85 said:


> There won't be any crossbreeds.


I would say yes to this, except you mean it to mean only one parent contributes to the makeup of the offspring. In a natural system there won't be any crossbreeds because incompatible genetics means the female will _never_ get pregnant.


*Examples that Work:*

Bernard Doove's storyworld for his *Chakat series* works, mostly. In fact his storyworld allows for new species on an individual basis. He has limited crossbreeding. Chakats can cross with other taurs, in which case the offspring is chakat-like, but I wonder how many generations that can happen before the system breaks down. E.g. A chakat-foxtaur is crossed with a foxtaur, is crossed with a foxtaur, etc. When do you get a foxtaur? In another instance of cross-species fertility, the reason is magic. That is, an alien deity has chosen to bless a human male with miraculous fertility and this fellow can impregnate any female of any species. Finally there's a single instance of a human male having his testicles re-engineered so he can impregnate his foxtaur wife. BTW, Bernard has had at least one of his stories professionally published in a fandom anthology.

Another multi-species storyworld that works is Philip Eggerding's *Wilderhom series*. He doesn't have a lot of species. He has natural humans, and a handful of genetically engineered species. They are independent species, but are each based on a blend of species. Thus he has feline morphs, canine morphs, etc. They _can_ form cross-species bonds and unions, but differing body language and pheromones means the couple has to work at understanding each other on a deeper level. Also, and I've only read the first book, I don't believe cross-species unions are fertile. BTW, if Philip had not web published his stories I think he might have had a crack at professional publication. His first book was pretty good.

Both of these storyworlds exist in the sci-fi realm.


*What to Do:*

First: What does your story need? Don't toss in stuff just because you personally think it's cool.

Second: Think of reasons why things are as they are. Are your species naturally evolved on different planets, but have gotten together because the story's planet is some sort of magical nexus that randomly snags intelligent species from around the galaxy (fantasy)? Or did they get there by spaceship (sci-fi)? Or are they naturally evolved on the story's planet but kept apart for a few million years by climate or oceans, and only just recently got together (maybe because of rising technology)? If one species is on a strict annual mating cycle that's regulated by photoperiod changes due to the tilt of the planet--then they could not live outside of a certain band of latitudes. Other possibilities are different resource needs, so they never come into competition with each other and therefore don't interfere with each other's rise to intelligence and civilization.

Then again, I have a personal theory about intelligence--we're not born with it, it's learned. Language begets language, math begets math, and the changes in the human brain brought about by leaning language and math begets greater intelligence, and so on. Humanity had the potential, but needed to grow into that potential. There may be other capable species on earth today--all we need to do is teach them (great apes perhaps). And create a safe environment where they can raise their young and pass that on, and on. So, a natural world could have several possible intelligent species but only one has risen... until curiosity drives that one to teach others. No sci-fi or fantasy backstory necessary.

Or you can take the chakat/Wilderhom route and use genetic engineering. The possible paths a backstory could take using gen-eng are limitless.


Again, this stuff only really matters if you're hoping to break into the mainstream.

Scotty


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## pheonix (Nov 30, 2008)

Well if you add humans to your story there's a lot of good ideas that can come from that but it's all up to what kind of story you want to write. I'd add humans into a story, furs and humes could be at war or a hume and a fur can fall in love or something. There's so many possibilities with it. Hope your story turns out great.^_^


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## Art Vulpine (Nov 30, 2008)

Ok.

Allow me to clarify.

I edited some things, because if it sounds confusing to my telling of it now, it will confuse others later.

1) When I said no cross breeds, I mean no Wolf/Skunk thing or Elephant/Horse thing.

Genetically I want to make things simple rather than having to explain crossbreeds.

After all, if the crossbreeds were able to have offspring, they could be a patchwork of species.

Imagine trying to explain a multigenerational generation crossbred fur.

"The horse, fox, tiger, ferret, elephant, skunk, polar bear walked into the Boar's Head Tavern." 

People would lose interest.

2) What I meant be species = race is this.

Each animal type is a species, they can be compared to individual human races on Earth (IE: fox furs behave, look, and think differently than wolf furs)

The difference between a human's racial structure and my racial structure is the introduction of the "race/ subrace/species" idea.

Animals on Earth are mainly classified by their family and their species.

Furs in general are first considered to be a race, just like in other fantasy stories you have races such as dwarves, elves, and humans. 

This is to set the furry race apart from the human race, although defining the furs as one race would be a gross overgeneralization used by some ignorant humans in my story.

Furs then can be classified under a subrace, just as animals are classed under a family type.

Therefore cheetah, panther, leopard, and tiger furs are classified under the feline subrace.

each member in the subrace looks similar and has some similar personality traits, but there will be differences.

Lastly you have each individual species.

As for offspring, I'll scale it back to where only members in a caertain subspeciec can have offspring.

If two different species from different subspecies mate, their offspring will die to genetic  incompatibility.


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## ScottyDM (Dec 1, 2008)

pheonix said:


> ... or a hume and a fur can fall in love or something....


Yaaay! *Make love, not war.*

Ahhh, well you see, I was between jr. high and high school during the summer of love, and while I would have liked to have gone out to San Francisco and worn flowers in my hair. I didn't have a car, much money, and my parents wouldn't have let me go anyway. So I guess you could say I'm a frustrated wannabe hippy. If it helps, my hair today is longer than it's ever been (about 3 inches beyond my collar), and I own several tie-dye t-shirts.  

And make love not war is precisely what I'm writing in my cross-species novel. The joy is the huge complication that arises precisely because it's about a cross-species relationship. _Species are not interchangeable._ It is the joy of discovery, of discovering love. A Brief excerpt (663 words) to illustrate the idea.




Inari85 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> ...


So you're writing for the fandom then.



Inari85 said:


> just like in other fantasy stories you have races such as dwarves, elves, and humans.


True enough. But are humans, elves, and dwarves truly races, or separate species? I know that in some storyworlds humans and elves can crossbreed, which might imply that they are very close genetically speaking... unless you're operating in the realm of magic.



Inari85 said:


> The difference between a human's racial structure and my racial structure is the introduction of the "race/ subrace/species" idea.


Please understand that the concept of race in humanity is almost purely a political idea. Genetically there is more variation between all the whites, and between all the blacks, than there is between the two races. Also, there is no gene that is only found in one race, or never found in a race. Genetically, we are all Africans, with a few superficial differences.

But a question. Why do you need so many different species? What is the _reason_ they exist?

Scotty


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## kitreshawn (Dec 1, 2008)

I mostly agree with the things Scotty has said, but I feel that an importaint distinction needs to be made here.

Do you want humans in your story universe or do you actually want them in your story?

This is actually an importaint question.  Anything could theoretically be in your story universe but that does not necessarily mean they appear in the story itself.  For instance it is possible that humans do exist in your universe and even at times interact with the furry species, but such things are rare so it does not happen in your story.

The real question to ask yourself is would their being human be importaint to the story?  Would that enable the character to do something they wouldn't be able to do as a zebra or wolf or skunk or some other species?  If not than you should think very very hard before making them human.

This is actually true for any species you want to introduce into your story.  Two or three different species appearing in a story just because is fine, but go over that and you need to start considering why you are putting in so many different types of critters in.  If it is to make characters easier to identify that is a poor reason and tells me you need to work on making your characters easier to tell apart and remember (otherwise instead of Joe the ex-military soldier with a limp and a love for dirty language you merely have Joe the coyote).  Don't introduce a cat character unless a character needs to do something only a cat could do.

This doesn't mean that the species cannot exist in your story universe.  Just that your story will be better without that species making an appearance in character form.


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## Art Vulpine (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks again!

The series and universe I'm building will be attracting both the mainstream and the fandom.

Right now I feel that humans are not necessary as their personalities would be too close to that of the furs.

As for determining the species, I'm creating currently a way to describe the species on the planet.

Right now I have the reason how these furs came to be.

Next is the races: These are, as mentioned, politically created.

Perhaps the definitions of species and races in my previous posts were fliped.

I never intended to have races as a genetic reason.

Species on the other hand, will have a genetic component.

Not all species will be characters.

Some might just be background species.


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## ScottyDM (Dec 1, 2008)

"Races"

I think part of the problem is that in literature, especially things like sci-fi and fantasy, the word "races" is often used to mean species. In other words, the Klingon race, the human race, etc. Which is a completely different meaning than the way "races" is used when describing humans here on earth.

Kitreshawn was correct...

When he said that there will be things in your storyworld that don't appear in your story. You might come up with an idea, but later realize you don't need to put that idea into the story.

I've found it's nearly impossible to completely pre-plan a storyworld. There will always be elements that pop up while writing that you couldn't have thought of in advance. However, planning out the key ideas even when you know you won't need them to appear in the story itself, can be useful. If the geology of your world shapes the land, and the shape of the land affects history, and history affects the present day politics and economy. So while you might not mention how glaciers from the last ice-age piled a rich loam up in a swath across a region, it will affect the prosperity of the farmers lucky enough to live there today. And the fact that the glaciers ground down an older mountain range and after retreating they left the land easy to traverse, sets your rich farmland up as a crossroads for traders and conquers. You don't need to say any of that glacier stuff, but it'll be in the back of your mind as you write. Astute readers will pick up the fact that your world makes sense. The same goes for the characters and their clans, tribes, nations, races, and species.

Scotty


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## Art Vulpine (Dec 2, 2008)

True.

What I am doing now is compiling a list of species that will be used as furries and then deciding which will be main character species and which will be just background species.

The goal is to make the book not seem like a textbook, yet at the same time explaining how and why things are.


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## Vore Writer (Dec 8, 2008)

I say go with whatever that story asks for. If something in your head is telling you to include human characters, by all means do it. If it doesn't, then there's no need to.


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## Aurali (Dec 9, 2008)

In a game concept I'm trying to persuade my publisher to get funding for, I have furries and humans in equal proportions. Meaning there is no more humans than their are foxes or wolves or chickens >.>; maybe this will help, 'furries' isn't a species anyway.


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## Art Vulpine (Dec 9, 2008)

After a long wrestling with myself...

(And Myself is a tough opponent mind you)

I've decided the follwing...

1) Yes, there will be humans. 

Do you ever get that muse moment when it seems that someone in whacking you on the head with a hammer, telling you to do something?

Well I had this with muse moment with including humans. 

2) There will be just furries based off North American mammals.

Rather than try to sort through thousands of mammals found throughout the world, I decided to narrow down the amount to about a hundred species.

Of this only about twenty will be used as main characters.

Now I am finishing wrapping up this part and moving one step closer to beginning the series.


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## ScottyDM (Dec 13, 2008)

Inari85 said:


> Of this only about twenty will be used as main characters.


I don't even think Steinbeck put 20 main characters into a novel.  

Slang term for white humans: "pinkies"

Could call them "skinnies" I guess, but "pinkies" sounds better, although it leaves out other-colored folk.

S-


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## Art Vulpine (Dec 13, 2008)

Here's the thing about my 20 main characters.

Some I may introduce later on in the series. 

Some may appear in one book and then get killed.

Some may come back from the dead (Zombies anyone?)

So 20 does not mean 20 in one book but in several books.


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## Vore Writer (Dec 13, 2008)

ScottyDM said:


> I don't even think Steinbeck put 20 main characters into a novel.
> 
> Slang term for white humans: "pinkies"
> 
> ...



I'd like to add on your post by saying "sape" would make for a nice slur towards humans.


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## Art Vulpine (Dec 13, 2008)

Yeah I heard a few: Pinkies, Hairless Apes, Bald Ones


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## ScottyDM (Dec 14, 2008)

Personally I liked "monkey boy", which was used by an alien in the movie _Buckaroo Banzai: Across the Eighth Dimension_.

S-


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## 50percentgrey (Dec 15, 2008)

I think humans can be planted within furry stories to add that stark contrast of social behavior, or as a certain focus in the story.

In my case, I have one human in this ongoig sotry I've been writing for gokutothez.  Here's the sketch of him:







And here's the chapters in which he is mentioned:

Chapter 8
Chapter 9


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## ScottyDM (Dec 16, 2008)

50percentgrey said:


> I think humans can be planted within furry stories to add that stark contrast of social behavior, or as a certain focus in the story.


Only if the nonhuman characters are truly nonhuman. But that seems to be the exception and not the rule. For example James Bruner's _Zig-Zag the Story_ is fabulous and I highly recommend it, but it contains no humans because all his characters _are_ human--on the inside. On the other hand Bernard Doove's _Forest Tales_ series has humans, but then his species are distinct with unique values, customs, physiologies, etc. (also highly recommended).

Too often I see a storyworld similar to Mr. Bruner's, but that includes humans simply because the author wanted a bunch of supreme bad guys and he/she didn't want to use a furry species for that role. No fur = evil, which is similar to Brian Jacques's _Redwall Abby_ series where all ferrets, all foxes, etc. are evil and all rabbits, all squirrels, etc. are good.

Scotty


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## ironwolf85 (Dec 17, 2008)

I've always used humans as the "Jack of All Trades" race.
in mine they are usually confusing to furries because humans vary constantly.
one human might give you a free meal and a warm place to stay out of the kindness of his heart, but another might shoot you for your wallet.
With other furries they know what to expect, Wolves are naturally aggressive, prefer family and a group mentality, and tend to respect strength. Deer naturaly passive, but with the same group mentality. still others are naturally the solo kind.
In mine humans cannot be defined as having tenancies as a species and this drives many furs up the wall. politically and romantically.


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