# Flops, Failures and F***-ups



## Tycho (Jul 30, 2009)

ITT I reminisce upon an incredible dud of a system:

The Virtual Boy.

I remember playing Mario Tennis on it, and I remember the mockery it received from the majority of the gaming world.  It was such an INCREDIBLE flop.  And yet I want one so bad to put up on a shelf and go "That thing is SUCH a piece of shit" with this smug grin of VG nostalgia nerd superiority...


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## Runefox (Jul 30, 2009)

The Sega Nomad. Great concept, and it supposedly worked really well (if being a disastrously bad battery guzzler), but it came too late and in too few numbers to make any impact. I really wanted one - "I can take my GENESIS games with me?!" ... But I never got the chance.


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## Imperial Impact (Jul 30, 2009)

Xbox
Sega CD 32X
Sega 32X
Sega CD 
Gamecube


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## AshleyAshes (Jul 30, 2009)

Perverted Impact said:


> Xbox
> Gamecube


 
It's really unfair to call these machines fuckups.  While they didn't do nearly as well as the PS2, they had their own accomplishments.  Xbox did well for the first console from Microsoft, laid the path for the 360 and gave us Xbox Live which has been a major success for Microsoft.

They may be 'lack luster' but failures and fuckups they are not.


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## Zhael (Jul 30, 2009)

The CD-I
JOIN ME LINK, AND I'LL MAKE YOUR FACE THE GREATEST IN CORIDINE!


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## Adrianfolf (Jul 30, 2009)

WolvenZhael said:


> The CD-I
> JOIN ME LINK, AND I'LL MAKE YOUR FACE THE GREATEST IN CORIDINE!



Oh god the CD-I was the biggest fuck up ever


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## Runefox (Jul 30, 2009)

It's hard to call the Sega CD a flop, too, since it actually did have its share of good titles, and was a decent foray into the world of CD gaming. Unfortunately, too many games were like Night Trap, and not enough were like Sonic CD or the PC Engine CD's Dracula X: Rondo of Blood. Thankfully, the Sega CD and its counterpart, the CD-I, taught the world that FMV games, while novel, can only really go so far. So use that disc space for something else!

And so it was.

Another great console that was a flop is the 3DO Interactive Multiplayer. I've recently begun playing some 3DO games, and I have to say, the console A) was pretty powerful, and B) had a library of some great games. The Wolfenstein 3D port was the best Wolf3D port ever created, with CD audio, redrawn graphics, and butter-smooth gameplay. The Doom port was more or less unplayable, but had a kickass soundtrack. But going further, there's games like Killing Time, Crash 'n Burn, the best-selling port of the original Road Rash, The Need For Speed, the original D, a very complete Wing Commander III, and a shitton more. Its major failure was its price tag.


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## lupinealchemist (Jul 30, 2009)

Nokia N-Gage


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## Runefox (Jul 30, 2009)

lupinealchemist said:


> Nokia N-Gage



I remember at first people were looking at it like "Yeah, who needs games on a cell phone?" Then it got released. Vertical screen. Taco-talking. Removing the battery to swap games. The White Screen of Death (fixable only by flashing the unit). General suck.

So, it went from "who needs games on a cell phone?" to "Just LOOK at that concentrated failure."


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 30, 2009)

I actually still have my Sega Nomad. It's actually kinda clunky and the screen a little blurry and dull, color wise, though that's not that big a deal since most Genesis games had pretty shitty colors and were never that sharp visually. It got me through a week or two of house-sitting for a friend of the family though.

I'd hardly call the Gamecube a failure. It had some pretty popular exclusives like the first two Metroid Primes, a few Zelda games, Starfox Adventures, and of course several Resident Evil titles, including RE 4 at least for a while. Anyone who never got a Dreamcast got decent enough ports of the Sonic Adventure titles. There was also a series of WWE games, Day of Reckoning iirc that was widely regarded as being arguably better than the Smackdown VS. Raw games from the same period. And of course a lot of the same popular titles that the other two systems had like the Tony Hawk games etc.

I'm glad I got one and not a Wii because most of the games on it I like were released a few years ago, for less


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## furrygamer84 (Jul 30, 2009)

I used to have a Neo Geo Pocket Color, a little handheld system back in the day that stopped producing games after a few months.

waste of money...


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## Foxstar (Jul 31, 2009)

Tycho said:


> ITT I reminisce upon an incredible dud of a system:
> 
> The Virtual Boy.
> 
> I remember playing Mario Tennis on it, and I remember the mockery it received from the majority of the gaming world.  It was such an INCREDIBLE flop.  And yet I want one so bad to put up on a shelf and go "That thing is SUCH a piece of shit" with this smug grin of VG nostalgia nerd superiority...



It made Nintendo a crapload of money. They didn't lose a dime on it, in fact it made them a fair bit of profit.


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## WolfoxOkamichan (Jul 31, 2009)

You know what's sad? Gunpei leaving Nintendo out of that single mistake... Gunpei, who pioneered handheld gaming.


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## Runefox (Jul 31, 2009)

WolfoxOkamichan said:


> You know what's sad? Gunpei leaving Nintendo out of that single mistake... Gunpei, who pioneered handheld gaming.



And don't forget the D-Pad. While he didn't invent it, he pioneered the current face of the D-pad back in the early 80's that replaced those bulky joysticks that used to be the rage.


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## Foxstar (Jul 31, 2009)

WolfoxOkamichan said:


> You know what's sad? Gunpei leaving Nintendo out of that single mistake... Gunpei, who pioneered handheld gaming.



He didn't have to leave, even the old dragon himself demanded he didn't go, but he went anyway. He took the hit the VB had as too personal.


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## Kivaari (Jul 31, 2009)

My mom used to have a Game Gear. At the time I was amazed by it, mostly that something that old had that good of graphics. Eventually it got to be where the average battery life was less than 30 minutes though.


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## Runefox (Jul 31, 2009)

Sponge Cat said:


> My mom used to have a Game Gear. At the time I was amazed by it, mostly that something that old had that good of graphics.



The only reason for that is because the Game Boy never bothered to break any new ground for several years after the Game Gear had come and gone. It (the GG) was a powerful system (it was a portable Master System with an extended colour palette, which was arguably more powerful than the NES was), but it was ahead of its time, and the battery life just couldn't be worked out.

Nintendo had a good thing going with the Gameboy in that the thing sipped batteries very conservatively, but it just wasn't very powerful, and even the Gameboy Colour wasn't up to par. Had the Game Gear actually succeeded and gave the Gameboy competition, we might have seen the Gameboy Advance come along a lot sooner.


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## AshleyAshes (Jul 31, 2009)

Really, no back lit game console could have been particularly successful before the creation of self-recharging battery packs for consoles. And I mean actual dedicated packs, not rechargable AA's. So wide spread NiMH or Lithium usage basicly.

Not to mention the Gameboy was built like a brick shithouse.


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## Tycho (Jul 31, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> It made Nintendo a crapload of money. They didn't lose a dime on it, in fact it made them a fair bit of profit.



*genuine surprise*

Wow.


I remember someone remarking that it looked like Mario and friends were playing tennis in the bowels of Hell.  That red was just... argh.

Also, while it was most certainly not a horrid machine, the Tapwave Zodiac is kind of a sad story, with its relatively poor sales.  Such a promising machine, too - it was better than the PSP, I would wager.


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## Azbulldog (Jul 31, 2009)

Sponge Cat said:


> My mom used to have a Game Gear. At the time I was amazed by it, mostly that something that old had that good of graphics. Eventually it got to be where the average battery life was less than 30 minutes though.


We have two Gamegears sitting around, but I think both are messed up in different ways, one is that the screen looks weird if I remember right, it's pretty nice aside from how hefty and battery intensive it is.


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## Riptor (Jul 31, 2009)

furrygamer84 said:


> I used to have a Neo Geo Pocket Color, a little handheld system back in the day that stopped producing games after a few months.
> 
> waste of money...



The NGPC had a great Sonic game and probably the best portable fighting games there are, though.

Also, my suggestion is *Spore*. A lot of us were looking forward to it for a long time. The tech demos made it look like an epic game that would change the ways we would look at simulation games forver.

Then it came out. Every mode was about as simple as a Flash game, and the best part, the Creature Creator, had come out several weeks before.


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## I am a communist (Jul 31, 2009)

Riptor said:


> The NGPC had a great Sonic game and probably the best portable fighting games there are, though.
> 
> Also, my suggestion is *Spore*. A lot of us were looking forward to it for a long time. The tech demos made it look like an epic game that would change the ways we would look at simulation games forver.
> 
> Then it came out. Every mode was about as simple as a Flash game, and the best part, the Creature Creator, had come out several weeks before.



I've never played Spore and I've only heard negative things about it post release. What exactly made it so bad, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Kuekuatsheu (Jul 31, 2009)

I dunno really, I never bought crap

ugh okay, I have 3 DS, I don't even know why I bought a DSi, it's really a disappointment
although the camera and sound editing thing is pretty fun, but the games suck on the DSi-Shop, a crapload of "OMG LOOK AT THIS I IZ WIZARD!1" stuff, where every retard knows how you do it after the first time, and "Wario Ware: Snapped!" works once every 2 weeks (seems that my skin has a blue or green tone because it can't differ my face to a blue/green background...)


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## Riptor (Jul 31, 2009)

I am a communist said:


> I've never played Spore and I've only heard negative things about it post release. What exactly made it so bad, if you don't mind me asking?



Well, the major thing that hurt it was hype. Like I said, they made the game sound incredible, and the Creature Creator WAS a lot of fun. When you actually played the game, though, everything was so simple and easy. It was supposed to be an epic cross of Civilization, Star Control, and Warcraft, among other things, but all the modes felt like some kind of kid-friendly, watered down version of each.

The fact that I got the Special Edition with a strategy guide REALLY didn't help my opinion, either.


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 31, 2009)

Valve's "Episodic Gameplay" for the Half LIfe Episodes. I'm pretty sure the idea *isn't* to keep people waiting for two years on a cliffhanger...


You guys are forgetting one important thing....the Gizmondo.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Gizmondo_Handheld.jpg


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## Jango The Blue Fox (Jul 31, 2009)

every 3D sonic game that came out after adventures 2 was a failure. and i own a sega nomad it is a great console but it has lots of problems like the batteries drain realy fast and eventualy stop working. but it was great becouse it was basicly a genisis with a screen you could plug it in to the TV and it has a controler port so you could have a friend play to. if you can find someone selling it cheap then buy it becouse it is very valuable and if you don't belive that then check ebay. i sill have mine.


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## Twylyght (Jul 31, 2009)

3DO and Atari Lynx.


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## ChrisPanda (Jul 31, 2009)

mortal kombat armagedon for the wii


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## Tycho (Jul 31, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> You guys are forgetting one important thing....the Gizmondo.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Gizmondo_Handheld.jpg



Oh, hey, I don't think I ever saw one of those things... wonder how many people bought them?

Here's another Nintendud for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.O.B.

Though to be fair it has repeatedly made appearances in various Nintendo games as a character or easter egg, so maybe it wasn't such a huge failure?


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 31, 2009)

The Gizmondo was just epic failure. It also made you watch COMMERCIALS every day.


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## Tycho (Aug 1, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> The Gizmondo was just epic failure. It also made you watch COMMERCIALS every day.



Hahaha wait WHAT?

Now that's just idiotic.


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## Lukar (Aug 1, 2009)

Okami was a failure, in terms of sales. ;-;


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## Digitalpotato (Aug 1, 2009)

If I recall so was System Shock 2.


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## Rai Toku (Aug 1, 2009)

Lukar said:


> Okami was a failure, in terms of sales. ;-;



Failure in sales, but a pretty good game. Then again, looking at how games have seemed to degrade in the past few years, it's no surprise to me that the truly good games sell horribly while the crap games bring in a profit.

As for failure consoles, I've very little experience in that area. So far, though, the PS3 seems to fit that mark. Give it a few years, and we'll see if it can manage to get back on its feet, or be trampled by the Wii and 360.


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## Runefox (Aug 1, 2009)

Rai Toku said:


> Failure in sales, but a pretty good game. Then again, looking at how games have seemed to degrade in the past few years, it's no surprise to me that the truly good games sell horribly while the crap games bring in a profit.



That's because the biggest-selling games - Like Guitar Hero, DDR (in long ago land), shooters, and jRPG's are fairly easy to make, and people already know how to play them. Most of the formula is already there - All you need to do is take a random game engine, make the content, and package it. And people eat it up - Especially things like Guitar Hero, which are literally nothing more than beat sheets and MP3 files with fancy controllers and some rudimentary 3D graphics thrown in (which is honestly part of the genius behind them).

Oh, and people (at least, around here) seem to be eating up the Wii's vast library of shovelware of ported Flash games (moreso than its library of decent games) like there's no tomorrow. I can't really explain that one. Maybe people around here are retarded or something.


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## Tycho (Aug 1, 2009)

Oh, and here's a megafail that killed a legendary company.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdyOJESNLc

The Atari Jaguar!


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## Aurali (Aug 1, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Oh, hey, I don't think I ever saw one of those things... wonder how many people bought them?
> 
> Here's another Nintendud for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.O.B.



you my friend, have no history. R.O.B revitalized the gaming industry after the arcade crash in 83. Nintendo used him to make people think of Nintendo as a family computer, and not a game console (an evil term 20 years ago). I bow to R O B


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## Tycho (Aug 1, 2009)

Eli said:


> you my friend, have no history. R.O.B revitalized the gaming industry after the arcade crash in 83. Nintendo used him to make people think of Nintendo as a family computer, and not a game console (an evil term 20 years ago). I bow to R O B



...what?

WHAT?

R.O.B. was a largely useless peripheral that worked with 2 games.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Aug 1, 2009)

I had a Game Gear, Sega sure fucked up a good idea with that one.


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 1, 2009)

Tycho said:


> ...what?
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> R.O.B. was a largely useless peripheral that worked with 2 games.


That's not what ROB was for.

ROB wasn't an accessory, he was a marketing gimmick DISGUISED as an accessory.

*Nintendo:* We have a new gaming console for you Americans!
*American Retailers:* Video game are dead, Atari killed them, go away.
*Nintendo:* ...We have a new robot toy for you Americans, The Nintendo Entertainment System, look, IT'S A TOY!  Certianly not a video game system at all!
*American Retailers:* OOOO! We want! :O

ROB is the only reason the NES was successful in North America. Retailers wouldn't have even stocked the NES had it not been for ROB.

ROB was abandoned after he finished his job. Once they snuck NES in the door, everyone realized that Mario was awesome and they went nuts for the NES.

ROB literally reversed the Video Game Crash of 1983.  That's not a failure or a flop.


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## Tycho (Aug 1, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> That's not what ROB was for.
> 
> ROB wasn't an accessory, he was a marketing gimmick DISGUISED as an accessory.
> 
> ...



You must be shitting me.

Its real purpose was to be a candy coating for the NES to get retailers to bite?

Fuck, American retailers were stupid.



> R.O.B. was released with the intention of portraying the Nintendo Entertainment System as something novel in order to alleviate retail fears following the video game crash of 1983.



How did I not notice that >.<


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## Rai Toku (Aug 1, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Fuck, humans are stupid.



-fixed.


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 1, 2009)

Tycho said:


> You must be shitting me.
> 
> Its real purpose was to be a candy coating for the NES to get retailers to bite?
> 
> Fuck, American retailers were stupid.


 
In 1983 the video game industry of North America basicly emploded. So yeah, in 1985 most retailers had zero interest in this whole 'video game' thing that they had just suffered a huge loss on two years ago.  If you were running a large department store chain and you had just had to sell off your utterly devalued video game stock for far less than you paid for it, how would YOU feel about these Japanese guys coming up to you with their 'Famicom' video game machine?


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## Tycho (Aug 2, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> In 1983 the video game industry of North America basicly emploded. So yeah, in 1985 most retailers had zero interest in this whole 'video game' thing that they had just suffered a huge loss on two years ago.  If you were running a large department store chain and you had just had to sell off your utterly devalued video game stock for far less than you paid for it, how would YOU feel about these Japanese guys coming up to you with their 'Famicom' video game machine?



The cause of the '83 crash: floods of shitty games and hardware.

Didn't Nintendo institute "5 titles a year per publisher" from the get-go, though? That should have alleviated fears of another deluge of crap SOMEWHAT, right?


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 2, 2009)

Tycho said:


> The cause of the '83 crash: floods of shitty games and hardware.
> 
> Didn't Nintendo institute "5 titles a year per publisher" from the get-go, though? That should have alleviated fears of another deluge of crap SOMEWHAT, right?


 
Firstly, how much assurance would Nintendo telling you 'They have a plan' be?  Without the luxury of knowing how things actually worked out?  Not only that but the crash was caused by people not BUYING games because they were crap.  I mean an entire INDUSTRY crashed here.  So how confident would you be now, that if you stocked a new game console that people would even BUY it?  It seems like an obvious move now but this is because we see it as retrospect.  They lost a lot of money on video games and a lot of companies were weary of investing further into them.  It could mean the loss of millions and millions of dollars of the stock goes unsold.


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## Tycho (Aug 2, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Firstly, how much assurance would Nintendo telling you 'They have a plan' be?  Without the luxury of knowing how things actually worked out?  Not only that but the crash was caused by people not BUYING games because they were crap.  I mean an entire INDUSTRY crashed here.  So how confident would you be now, that if you stocked a new game console that people would even BUY it?  It seems like an obvious move now but this is because we see it as retrospect.  They lost a lot of money on video games and a lot of companies were weary of investing further into them.  It could mean the loss of millions and millions of dollars of the stock goes unsold.



It's hard for me to look at it in retrospect and imagine the uncertainty the retailers felt.  Like you said, it's obvious to us now.  It's hard to imagine it otherwise.

I don't think I had ever attributed the NES' success in the NA market to any one thing in particular before - I assumed that the NES had gotten in on its own credentials, so to speak, and brought the market for video games back from the grave.


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## Digitalpotato (Aug 2, 2009)

Tycho said:


> You must be shitting me.
> 
> Its real purpose was to be a candy coating for the NES to get retailers to bite?
> 
> Fuck, American retailers were stupid.



Considering the american companies brought about 1983.....


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## CryoScales (Aug 2, 2009)

Twylyght said:


> 3DO



DAMN beat me to it

The 3DO was a major failure. Mostly due to the fact it was too expensive and no one bought it. They kept it at 700 dollars until a few months before it died.


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## Foxstar (Aug 2, 2009)

Tycho said:


> The cause of the '83 crash: floods of shitty games and hardware.
> 
> Didn't Nintendo institute "5 titles a year per publisher" from the get-go, though? That should have alleviated fears of another deluge of crap SOMEWHAT, right?



No. Remember LJN Games? Remember Ultra Games? The major developers simply dropped a few million and opened sister development houses so that they could put out 10/15 games a year. And even then that didn't help. Remember Color Dreams? Of course they didn't come around till Namco's shady background deals led to the 10NES saga.


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## Runefox (Aug 2, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> Remember Color Dreams?



Those guys (and their later company, Wisdom Tree) were unofficial, and their initial way to bypass the 10NES chip was to surge the fucker with a jolt of electricity which knocked it out.

And their games _sucked_.


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## Bacu (Aug 2, 2009)

PS3.


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## TwilightV (Aug 2, 2009)

(Almost a complete failure)
Microsoft's aquisition of Rare


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## Lazydabear (Aug 2, 2009)

Sega Saturn It had good titles but game developers had issues making games, Sega Dreamcast was a great system people loved playing Phantasy Star Online I felt bad that system failed to sell well.


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## Aurali (Aug 2, 2009)

TwilightV said:


> (Almost a complete failure)
> Microsoft's aquisition of Rare



Worst day in gaming history.


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## Digitalpotato (Aug 2, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> DAMN beat me to it
> 
> The 3DO was a major failure. Mostly due to the fact it was too expensive and no one bought it. They kept it at 700 dollars until a few months before it died.



And it had games like Plumbers don't wear ties.


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## JamestheDoc (Aug 2, 2009)

Dead Rising for the Wii.  :|


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 2, 2009)

JamestheDoc said:


> Dead Rising for the Wii. :|


 
It still managed to sell half a million copies by the end of June.  Which, for a core title not made by Nintendo, is an achivement on the Wii.


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## Runefox (Aug 2, 2009)

Bacu said:


> PS3.



Not really. By that metric, the Gamecube was an astronomical failure, as was the original X-Box.


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## Tycho (Aug 2, 2009)

Another dud:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64DD

The N64 "bulky drive".


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## CryoScales (Aug 2, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> And it had games like Plumbers don't wear ties.



Ehehe someone likes to make connections based on avatars


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 2, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Not really. By that metric, the Gamecube was an astronomical failure, as was the original X-Box.


 
The Xbox in itself is a pretty neat machine.  On an industry impact, it certianly wasn't a rousing success of course.  It was Microsoft getting it's foot in the gaming door, which paved the way for the Xbox 360 and the Xbox 360 is a key Microsoft element in computer<->home theater convergance.

Though at the same time, Microsoft dropped it's first Xbox pretty hard compared to other hardware developers who continued to give love to their machines even after their successors were released.  Look at Nintendo, they were re-releasing an NES redesign after the SNES was out the door.

But the Xbox itself is a decent machine.  On the gaming front, it has some games that are great at the events I run.  Outrun 2, HOTD3, GGXX, Soul Caliber 2, stuff like that.

Not to mention that you can mod the machine and use Xbox Media Center on it.  I used a series of Xboxs running XBMC to operate as cheap set top clients for a CCTV network at an anime convention.  A camera in the main events room was fed into a PC with a capture card, VLC was used as the server and Xbox's connected to TVs stationed around the convention served as the reception hardware. :3

The hardware itself is pretty sweet, especially 100mbps ethernet out of the box, it's the only console in the 6th generation to do that.  Granted the Dreamcast featured dialup out of the box but that sorta ran into a dead end.


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## Runefox (Aug 2, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not putting the X-Box down; I wouldn't mind having a unit myself to use as a media centre box since the 360 doesn't quite do it very well (I'd like to be able to play formats other than WMV and some specific combinations of other codecs, thanks (especially things like Matroska containers and subtitles)). Actually, I used to, a while ago; But my roommate sold it on me.


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## Gardoof (Aug 3, 2009)

Tycho said:


> The Virtual Boy.



My elbows were always sore when I played this...

Owwy, Rugburn


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## Foxstar (Aug 3, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Not really. By that metric, the Gamecube was an astronomical failure, as was the original X-Box.



The Gamecube was profitable from day one till it's final day on the market. The Xbox 1 was not.


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## I am a communist (Aug 4, 2009)

Every MMO that has come out since WoW seems to be a complete failure. I like WoW, but it would be nice to have other options for an MMO that isn't complete shit.


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## Runefox (Aug 4, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> The Gamecube was profitable from day one till it's final day on the market. The Xbox 1 was not.



Profitable or not, it wasn't a flop, nor was the Gamecube (I wasn't saying they were, I was saying that the PS3 isn't) - It introduced/popularized the concept of online play right out of the box (Dreamcast introduced this but didn't follow through), internal mass storage (every current-gen system has this), voice communications via online play (some earlier PS2 games like SOCOM had headsets, but by no means was this the norm), not to mention its ability as a media centre (not on purpose, mind you).



> Every MMO that has come out since WoW seems to be a complete failure. I like WoW, but it would be nice to have other options for an MMO that isn't complete shit.


WoW is complete shit, and I don't say that lightly. I can't argue with its success, but I can certainly argue with its immersion, gameplay, and general formula. It took the same basic gameplay elements that other emerging MMO's were using, and by merging the Warcraft world and lore with the concept managed to hook pretty much every Blizzard fan ever before it even launched (read: shitton of people) and then by advertising and word of mouth it exploded and still remains at the top, in spite of its tired, boring gameplay model that every other MMO ever has used. Games that break the mould like ACE Online are rare. A commercial success where otherwise it would have faded into the background with the rest of the MMO's doing exactly the same thing, before and since.

However, I think it's more along the lines of people having only so much spare time and money. The MMORPG market is currently filled with countless games and projects trying to get in on the craze, and frankly, chances are, if you've got a friend playing an MMORPG, they're probably playing World of Warcraft - Hence you will too.


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## AdventBahamut (Aug 4, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Oh, and here's a megafail that killed a legendary company.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdyOJESNLc
> 
> The Atari Jaguar!




Heh, 64 bit my ass. And plenty of hardware defects.


Also, 3D0. Could list a lot of reasons as to why it failed, but we all know almost all of them stem from this one problem.

$700.


Also: Sega CD and 32X. 'nuff said. (and Game Gear to some extent)


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 4, 2009)

Runefox said:


> internal mass storage (every current-gen system has this)


 
Firstly, the Xbox 360 doesn't have internal mass storage.  It's HDD is external and the most basic units, currently known as the 'Arcade' SKU, doesn't come with a HDD.

But actually the HDD on the first Xbox was what made it unprofitable.  Even if it was small, you reach a minimum point where a HDD, reguardless of how small, still costs the same to produce.  So had it a 40GB drive or an 8GB drive, it was still the most expensive component.  Cool feature though.  The software however lacked the means of saving directly to the memory cards.  So you had to save to HDD and then go to the dash and transfer to memory card.

I wish that some of the console ports of arcade games had kept the ability from their arcade counter parts of loading player data immediately off a personalized data card.


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## Runefox (Aug 4, 2009)

AdventBahamut said:


> Heh, 64 bit my ass. And plenty of hardware defects.


Actually, three of the processors were 64-bit RISC processors, but the memory lanes, sound processor and graphics processor were all 32-bit (yes, it had that many processors). In essence, it truly was a 64-bit system at its root, since graphics and sound are separate from general processing.

Of course, _bits_ mean absolutely nothing after the 16-bit era. Limitations of 32-bit processor design are only recently being hit in the general computer market, and 64-bit processing doesn't inherently speed anything up unless you need it.



> Also, 3D0. Could list a lot of reasons as to why it failed, but we all know almost all of them stem from this one problem.
> 
> $700.



That's really the only problem, aside from market saturation and the staunch refusal to drop from that price. The system otherwise was quite capable, and having an open architecture (open in this case meaning others could develop systems based on it) meant that market adoption could have gone a lot further than with other systems of the day. There were quite a few good games released for it, like Killing Time, the best-ever console port of Wolfenstein 3D, Road Rash, The Need for Speed, Alone in the Dark 1 and 2, D, Return Fire, the best home port of Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Wing Commander III...

EDIT:



> Firstly, the Xbox 360 doesn't have internal mass storage. It's HDD is external and the most basic units, currently known as the 'Arcade' SKU, doesn't come with a HDD.


Yeah, but the Arcade SKU does come with 256MB of flash storage, which _is_ mass storage, much like the Wii's 512MB internal flash storage. While the 360 might have a detachable hard drive, it technically does become part of the unit once attached (no need for a dongle or anything like that), and is rarely, if ever, detached. It's part of its inherent design, and frankly, if it wasn't detachable, what would you do if you had to send it in for repairs?



> But actually the HDD on the first Xbox was what made it unprofitable.


That may be so, but it also popularized the idea regardless. I mean, hell, even handhelds are coming with internal memory now. It was a step in the right direction, especially considering the current state of affairs with regard to downloadable software/media instead of physical.

Overall, the original X-Box was a marketing experiment, and the 360 ended up refining and perfecting the general formula, with the others following suit (though Ninty skimped on the capacity, flash memory is less prone to failure, takes less space, and radiates less heat than a real hard drive).


----------



## Tycho (Aug 4, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> I wish that some of the console ports of arcade games had kept the ability from their arcade counter parts of loading player data immediately off a personalized data card.



Oh hey, I remember seeing arcade machines with slots for data cards. At that time I couldn't fathom why anyone would need such a thing.

Anyways, remember Daikatana? You should.  It's John Romero's eternal hair shirt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana


----------



## AshleyAshes (Aug 4, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Yeah, but the Arcade SKU does come with 256MB of flash storage, which _is_ mass storage, much like the Wii's 512MB internal flash storage. While the 360 might have a detachable hard drive, it technically does become part of the unit once attached (no need for a dongle or anything like that), and is rarely, if ever, detached. It's part of its inherent design, and frankly, if it wasn't detachable, what would you do if you had to send it in for repairs?


 
You said INTERNAL.  Only very recently did the lower end Xbox 360 units start getting built in NAND Flash storage.  Previously they had USB sticks or you had to buy the HDD seperately.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 4, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> You said INTERNAL.  Only very recently did the lower end Xbox 360 units start getting built in NAND Flash storage.  Previously they had USB sticks or you had to buy the HDD seperately.



That's true, but those (360 Core) are no longer produced nor available. Memory cards (64MB) are still available for purchase, but those are getting rarer nowadays, since their only major function is to carry profile data and/or savegames from one 360 to another.

And perhaps I should have said "included" instead of "internal", but I still consider the hard drive for the 360 to be internal moreso than external simply because of its integration with the system in both design and function. I consider it closer to a hot-swap/quick-release bay than an external drive.


----------



## CryoScales (Aug 4, 2009)

Runefox said:


> the best-ever console port of Wolfenstein 3D,



The only thing that port had was redrawn sprites. Even that isnt even worth buying the entire console just to play.

EDIT: Also your information is also slightly wrong. As the Jaguar also had redrawn sprites so by your logic, the 3DO is tied with the Jag for best ever port of Wolfenstein 3D

Frankly I found the 360 version a lot more enjoyable then the 3DO. At least there it's at a higher resolution and you can play music ingame.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 4, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> The only thing that port had was redrawn sprites. Even that isnt even worth buying the entire console just to play.


It also plays extremely smoothly, has Redbook Audio music, 30 remixed levels, an automap, etc. It's certainly not worth buying the console to play, but that's one out of many I listed.



> EDIT: Also your information is also slightly wrong. As the Jaguar also had redrawn sprites so by your logic, the 3DO is tied with the Jag for best ever port of Wolfenstein 3D


That's slightly wrong, too. The Jaguar version has different music, does away with the score system (instead of adding score, picking up treasure adds to your health), and exchanges the status bar for an overlay of numbers over the game running in full screen. They aren't identical, and I think the 3DO version wins the contest.



> Frankly I found the 360 version a lot more enjoyable then the 3DO. At least there it's at a higher resolution and you can play music ingame.


See, I've got a love-hate relationship with the whole playing music in-game thing. It's cool that you can do it, and all, but it takes away from the feel of the game. I mean, sure, it'd be fun as hell to blow away Nazis to some heavy metal or jPop, but... No.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Aug 4, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Ehehe someone likes to make connections based on avatars



How on earth can you NOT recognize that dude in your avatar after seeing the AVGN and the AVGkNockoffs rip on that game?


----------



## CryoScales (Aug 4, 2009)

Runefox said:


> =See, I've got a love-hate relationship with the whole playing music in-game thing. It's cool that you can do it, and all, but it takes away from the feel of the game. I mean, sure, it'd be fun as hell to blow away Nazis to some heavy metal or jPop, but... No.



Well thats what I enjoy about being able to play music ingame. You could play whatever you want. So you could play some remixed versions of the music if you like. As well as music that may sound anything like the original midi music

Also I found that Wolfenstein 3D with an automap detracts from the overall gameplay. I mean Blazkowicz is just a rat searching for cheese. The only thing stopping him are a battalion of nazi's.



Digitalpotato said:


> How on earth can you NOT recognize that dude in your avatar after seeing the AVGN and the AVGkNockoffs rip on that game?



Ehehe I know. I laughed like crazy when I saw the pic and knew that was going to be my avatar


----------



## TheResult (Aug 5, 2009)

I.. I still have my Virtual Boy. And I still play it from time to time.
I never got headaches or anything; I thought a lot of the games were fun.

; - ;

Oh, and the only game I liked on the SegaCD was Sonic CD. That game was pretty much the only reason I ever popped my SegaCD in.


----------



## Beta Link (Aug 5, 2009)

The CD-i. From what I've heard, it had a pretty shitty game library, it was about twice the size of the PS3. And then of course, what it's most famous for, the Unholy Triforce. "Oh _boy!_ I'm so hungry, I could eat an _Octorok!_".


----------



## Tycho (Aug 5, 2009)

Beta Link said:


> The CD-i. From what I've heard, it had a pretty shitty game library, it was about twice the size of the PS3. And then of course, what it's most famous for, the Unholy Triforce. "Oh _boy!_ I'm so hungry, I could eat an _Octorok!_".



CD-i is what was originally going to be the SNES CD.  When the deal for the SNES CD fell through Phillips still walked away with the rights to produce 3 "Legend of Zelda" based "games".  I think the next SNES CD idea then led to what would eventually become the first Playstation.

Has the Apple Bandai Pippin been mentioned already? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Bandai_Pippin


----------



## TDK (Aug 5, 2009)

No wonder Apple dosen't want to even touch console gaming anymore... such a mistake on Bandai's part.


----------



## Beta Link (Aug 5, 2009)

Tycho said:


> CD-i is what was originally going to be the SNES CD.  When the deal for the SNES CD fell through Phillips still walked away with the rights to produce 3 "Legend of Zelda" based "games".  I think the next SNES CD idea then led to what would eventually become the first Playstation.
> 
> Has the Apple Bandai Pippin been mentioned already? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Bandai_Pippin


What I heard was that when Nintendo originally decided to make an SNES CD add-on, they teamed up with Sony to make it, and it was going to be called the "Nintendo Play Station" (though I doubt that was it's original name...). But for some reason, before the contract was signed, they cut Sony off, who then made the Playstation, and got Philips to help them instead. The contract was then signed, but Nintendo canned the idea because of the failure of the Sega CD. So Philips got the rights to some of Nintendo's characters, so they were able to make "Hotel Mario", "Lnk: The Faces of Evil", "Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon", and "Zelda's Adventure".

Of course, I've heard the story written about a million different ways. I wish I knew what actually happened, exactly.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 5, 2009)

Beta Link said:


> But for some reason, before the contract was signed, they cut Sony off, who then made the Playstation, and got Philips to help them instead.



That's basically the motivation behind Sony's R&D into console development - Nintendo, a fellow Japanese company, dropped their contract in order to get a _foreign_ rival on board for the project instead. Sony was _furious_ and refused to let the project go, in spite of heading into unknown waters for the company. Eventually we got the Playstation (after several very bold marketing stunts that slammed the Saturn and took the wind out from under it). Good thing or bad, it's the one CD system out of the original lot that survived and went on to be the most successful console of the day, and its successor went on to become what we know today as the world's most successful game console to date.

Poor Ninty shot themselves in the foot so many times since the 90's. They _created_ a competitor and rival of Sony, continued to use incredibly expensive cartridge media after the benefits of CD-ROM were properly realized (mainly citing load times and copy protection), continued to stray from proper formats with the Mini Gamecube discs with diminished capacity (again for copy protection reasons; Nintendo was _terrified_ of people copying games), practically refused to touch online gaming (and still does, for the most part, by comparison with everyone else; I believe this is mainly due to a lack of network infrastructure than company policy (considering the general idea of togetherness they promote))... If Sega were still around to compete, we'd probably have seen a much different Nintendo, but unfortunately the Nintendo we know today is competing against juggernauts with nigh-limitless funding and access to hardware (and hardware development).


----------



## Tycho (Aug 5, 2009)

Beta Link said:


> What I heard was that when Nintendo originally decided to make an SNES CD add-on, they teamed up with Sony to make it, and it was going to be called the "Nintendo Play Station" (though I doubt that was it's original name...). But for some reason, before the contract was signed, they cut Sony off, who then made the Playstation, and got Philips to help them instead. The contract was then signed, but Nintendo canned the idea because of the failure of the Sega CD. So Philips got the rights to some of Nintendo's characters, so they were able to make "Hotel Mario", "Lnk: The Faces of Evil", "Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon", and "Zelda's Adventure".
> 
> Of course, I've heard the story written about a million different ways. I wish I knew what actually happened, exactly.



Ah, yes, my bad.  Sony came first, then Philips.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Aug 5, 2009)

Educational games.

The majority of them had nothing to make the kids keep playing and most of the time in games like Oregon trail, they'd just play to kill teh family as quick as possible.

But that doesn't mean we couldn't have fun with it anyways.  Let's see how much I can crash my boat in the Amazon trail...oh look I caught an electric eel! KEEP IT!!!


----------



## AshleyAshes (Aug 5, 2009)

The Wii Vitality Sensor!

...Come on, we ALL know that thing is gonna suck.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 5, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> The Wii Vitality Sensor!
> 
> ...Come on, we ALL know that thing is gonna suck.



Foot, meet bullet.

Again.


----------



## Aeturnus (Aug 5, 2009)

The Wii mote. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a complete failure, but I feel Nintendo could've done a better job with it.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 5, 2009)

Aeturnus said:


> The Wii mote. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a complete failure, but I feel Nintendo could've done a better job with it.



Dammit, I hate leapfrog posting so much, but yes, this.

The Wii-mote is an awesome idea. In fact, it could have been "*Revolution*ary" (oh ho ho). But inaccurate pointing, inaccurate and sluggish motion detection (sometimes to the point of nearly not detecting anything and spontaneously detecting random motions), the reliance on shells and add-on packages to improve the experience, and the general lack of buttons make it difficult to use, and probably even more difficult to design a game around in a novel way (which is evident in the lacking numbers of games that truly take advantage of the Wii-mote).

Wii Motion Plus isn't something that people should be excited about - It's something that the Wii-mote should have had in the beginning, and now you get to buy an add-on to bring the controller up to the promised levels of performance to begin with - And even then the IR camera is finicky.

But I do love the Wii. I want to love it. It's an awesome idea. I want to like what Nintendo's doing, but they've been doing it all wrong. Maybe with the new Metroid game, we'll see if they really want me to love them. Because with Sony and Microsoft catching up and planning to release new (functionally superior) motion controls themselves with Natal and... Whatever the hell Sony's going to call theirs, Nintendo are soon going to find themselves competing directly again, and with inferior hardware in almost every aspect - Something they aren't equipped to do against Microsoft and Sony. Now and in the coming quarters more than ever, they're going to have to place their stakes on their games. Hopefully, they've planned for this; They couldn't be unique forever. Sony and Microsoft are kings of copying and refining technology, and Nintendo knows it.

Unfortunately, it seems they haven't been planning very much at all; To counter, they're releasing the Wii Vitality Sensor to tell you whether or not you're about to have a heart attack while playing Wii Fit. Stupendous.

I don't want the next generation of console wars to be between Microsoft and Sony alone. That's almost as bad as there being one console - And that's almost as bad as a video game market crash.


----------



## lilEmber (Aug 5, 2009)

The Wii, sure it's sold a lot but most of them are collecting dust, which is why they have the black version out now (or soon) so you can't see the dust as easily. :O

The Wiimote alone is crap, in direct sunlight I can't use the thing. I was unable to use the Wii if my room had sunlight. >:
I worked at a Cybercafe when it was launched, we had parties and had the only public Wii in a large area, so many crying kids becuase the blinds didn't block all the sun. Oh god...I hear them still...

On a plus note, the PS3 motion controller looks to be a successful upgrade to a wiimote, and it's on a decent system.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Aug 5, 2009)

I find it odd that I've never had that sunlight problem.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 5, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> I find it odd that I've never had that sunlight problem.



Do you live in a basement apartment or otherwise have good enough blinds to stop the sun from hitting the TV / Wii-mote? In my last apartment, the TV was right below the window (with blinds, mind you), and during the daytime, the tracking accuracy at ~4 feet was extremely shaky (to the point where it would get stuck and skip), while getting right up close to the sensor bar smoothed it out.


----------



## Kangamutt (Aug 5, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> On a plus note, the PS3 motion controller looks to be a successful upgrade to a wiimote



The reason PS3's motion sensitivity is better than the Wiimote, is because it uses an internal accelerometer rather than IR communications. While the IR isn't the best way (at least the sunlight issue is addressed in the user manual, so if you have any common sense, you'd read it) it's still a step in making games more like it in the future. The idea of a modular controller as well is interesting, but it can get costly having to purchase a new peripheral for a game.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Aug 5, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> The reason PS3's motion sensitivity is better than the Wiimote, is because it uses an internal accelerometer rather than IR communications. While the IR isn't the best way (at least the sunlight issue is addressed in the user manual, so if you have any common sense, you'd read it) it's still a step in making games more like it in the future. The idea of a modular controller as well is interesting, but it can get costly having to purchase a new peripheral for a game.


 
Uhh... The Wiimote has an accelerometer chip built in. The IR optical sensor on the front is a second input device. The IR optical sensor is only for using hte WiiMote as a pointing device, it has nothing to do with detecting acceleration or movement.


----------



## Liam (Aug 5, 2009)

Those old lcd handheld games that had a few buttons.  Anybody remember them?
Like the game and watch?


----------



## Kangamutt (Aug 6, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Uhh... The Wiimote has an accelerometer chip built in. The IR optical sensor on the front is a second input device. The IR optical sensor is only for using hte WiiMote as a pointing device, it has nothing to do with detecting acceleration or movement.



But the problem at hand is the IR sensor. By comparison, the Sixaxis comes off looking better because of that one problem with the IR.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Aug 6, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> But the problem at hand is the IR sensor. By comparison, the Sixaxis comes off looking better because of that one problem with the IR.


 
That just does't make any sense.  How can you say the SIXAXIS is better than the Wiimote's IR sensor?  The IR Sensor is used only as a pointing device, where as the SIXAXIS doesn't act as a pointing device at all...

The SIXAXIS can't do ANY of the stuff that the WiiMote can do with it's IR sensors.


----------



## Kangamutt (Aug 6, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> That just does't make any sense.  How can you say the SIXAXIS is better than the Wiimote's IR sensor?  The IR Sensor is used only as a pointing device, where as the SIXAXIS doesn't act as a pointing device at all...
> 
> The SIXAXIS can't do ANY of the stuff that the WiiMote can do with it's IR sensors.



I'm not saying Sixaxis is better.
I'm saying the problem of the IR sensor being easily interfered with can be seen as a major put-off for players (almost sold my own Wii because of that, among other reasons), leaving Sony to toot their horn about Sixaxis, and have the potential to pick up any consumers who have had it with dodgy controls, but wanting the novelty of some sort of motion control.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 6, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> I'm not saying Sixaxis is better.
> I'm saying the problem of the IR sensor being easily interfered with can be seen as a major put-off for players (almost sold my own Wii because of that, among other reasons), leaving Sony to toot their horn about Sixaxis, and have the potential to pick up any consumers who have had it with dodgy controls, but wanting the novelty of some sort of motion control.



I don't really think SIXAXIS/DualShock 3 is what Sony's planning on pushing as far as motion controls go - I take it you didn't watch Sony's E3 panel back when it happened? They're unveiling a new controller similar to the Wii-mote, but far more accurate - 1:1 motion (sub-millimetre accuracy). I can't recall at the moment and I can't be arsed to look it up (I'm tired.), but I think it's both motion-sensor-driven and camera-driven, but in the opposite way - Instead of having the camera in the controller, the camera is the Playstation Eye. Of course, it's currently a prototype, but that certainly seemed pretty far along in the development stage.


----------



## Kangamutt (Aug 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> I don't really think SIXAXIS/DualShock 3 is what Sony's planning on pushing as far as motion controls go - I take it you didn't watch Sony's E3 panel back when it happened? They're unveiling a new controller similar to the Wii-mote, but far more accurate - 1:1 motion (sub-millimetre accuracy). I can't recall at the moment and I can't be arsed to look it up (I'm tired.), but I think it's both motion-sensor-driven and camera-driven, but in the opposite way - Instead of having the camera in the controller, the camera is the Playstation Eye.



Looks promising.
I looked around, but I couldn't find anything on whether or not the controllers will feature accelerometers as well, though they more than likely may be put in there to help calculate say, the speed of throwing the controller, whereas the eye/glowing ball (as much as it is for function, they do look a bit odd, though it might be fun to watch your friends flail about with it in the dark) is simply to track the position of whatever the object is being manipulated in the game.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 6, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> Looks promising.
> I looked around, but I couldn't find anything on whether or not the controllers will feature accelerometers as well



Yeah, I'm fairly certain that there are accelerometers in there; Consider that they could read little things like twisting motions, and moving the controller behind an obstruction (last part of the video with the bow), which is something that a camera alone can't really track.


----------



## Bokracroc (Aug 6, 2009)

SIXAXIS is slow and sluggish 

The largest problem with any motion controls is the lack of feedback. That pussy rumble stuff doesn't quite click right when you meant to be 'swinging' a steel hammer and you hit a metal pole or something.


----------



## Foxstar (Aug 6, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> The Wii, sure it's sold a lot but most of them are collecting dust, which is why they have the black version out now (or soon) so you can't see the dust as easily. :O
> 
> The Wiimote alone is crap, in direct sunlight I can't use the thing. I was unable to use the Wii if my room had sunlight. >:
> I worked at a Cybercafe when it was launched, we had parties and had the only public Wii in a large area, so many crying kids becuase the blinds didn't block all the sun. Oh god...I hear them still...
> ...



HURRRRRR. LOOK AT ME, I CAN QUOTE MEMES BUT CAN'T LOOK UP THE USEAGE INFORMATION FOR THE SYSTEM. HURRRRRRR. And it's been well known direct sunlight is a issue. Where have you been..?


----------



## Foxstar (Aug 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Wii Motion Plus isn't something that people should be excited about - It's something that the Wii-mote should have had in the beginning



For a techie, you should know that adding what's in the Motion + to the Wiimote at launch would have ran the cost of it up by a fair bit. Go look at what the tech cost in 2006 compared to now.


----------



## lilEmber (Aug 6, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> HURRRRRR. LOOK AT ME, I CAN QUOTE MEMES BUT CAN'T LOOK UP THE USEAGE INFORMATION FOR THE SYSTEM. HURRRRRRR. And it's been well known direct sunlight is a issue. Where have you been..?


I wasn't quoting any meme's, all of that post was myself.
You sure are defensive over the Wii, hell I'm not this defensive over any console, perhaps PC but that's because it simply is the best gaming platform, period.



> at least the sunlight issue is addressed in the user manual, so if you have any common sense, you'd read it


What? it mentions the sunlight issue, so that means it's alright? Sure, that makes sense, alright. Because something tells you its flaws, those flaws no longer can be held against it. I'll be sure to remember this, thanks so very much.


Bokracroc said:


> SIXAXIS is slow and sluggish


If by slow and sluggish you mean instant and 1:1.


----------



## Bokracroc (Aug 6, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> If by slow and sluggish you mean instant and 1:1.


Well it's either the controller or the games. They're new controllers, I've like, had the thing for 3 months max.


----------



## lilEmber (Aug 6, 2009)

Bokracroc said:


> Well it's either the controller or the games. They're new controllers, I've like, had the thing for 3 months max.


I played a Ps3 at a friends place a bunch of times and it's 1:1, it might be the games you're playing don't support it, but Killzone 2 during every loading screen had 1:1 on the holographic cards, and the PS3 motion controller uses similar technology, and they boast about 1:1.


----------



## TheResult (Aug 6, 2009)

I see dust more easily on black surfaces than white surfaces.

That is all.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 6, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> For a techie, you should know that adding what's in the Motion + to the Wiimote at launch would have ran the cost of it up by a fair bit. Go look at what the tech cost in 2006 compared to now.



As a techie, I do realize that it was expensive; As a consumer, I don't care. This is what Nintendo advertised the Wii as being capable of to begin with. The fact that it cost a lot doesn't matter - They crippled it so that they could launch without taking a hit on the production cost, and now they're releasing it as a paid-for attachment. Basically, you get to pay for the Wii-mote again to slap an inch-long extension to make it do what they said it would do years ago.


----------



## TheResult (Aug 6, 2009)

To be fair, Nintendo was the only company who made a profit on their gaming system to begin with; Microsoft and Sony took deficits on their systems, to make profits on the games and accessories themselves. Nintendo could have at least put some of that extra revenue they took in and put it into the Wiimote's motion sensing capabilities, without jacking the price up so much, since they were already making a profit on the system.

They _didn't_, of course, because that would mean less money for them and who are we kidding the Wii already sells like hotcake so why bother, but I'm saying that they _could_ have if they really wanted to.


----------



## Carenath (Aug 6, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> It's really unfair to call these machines fuckups.  While they didn't do nearly as well as the PS2, they had their own accomplishments.  Xbox did well for the first console from Microsoft, laid the path for the 360 and gave us Xbox Live which has been a major success for Microsoft.
> 
> They may be 'lack luster' but failures and fuckups they are not.


I have to agree with you there.



TwilightV said:


> (Almost a complete failure)
> Microsoft's aquisition of Rare





Eli said:


> Worst day in gaming history.


Agreed.

The Amiga computer.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 6, 2009)

Carenath said:


> The Amiga computer.



So much potential gone to waste to the continuous management shifting and changing hands, and general marketing mismanagement. Sigh.


----------



## Foxstar (Aug 6, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I wasn't quoting any meme's, all of that post was myself.
> You sure are defensive over the Wii, hell I'm not this defensive over any console, perhaps PC but that's because it simply is the best gaming platform, period.



No, you were quoting brainless memes that have been spinning around boards for years and years. You also didn't back up your statement with proof. I will thus counter. with proof.

http://kotaku.com/5331417/the-ten-most-avidly+played-wii-games-in-america-as-of-august-1

http://kotaku.com/5306680/how-many-hours-people-play-nintendos-wii-games-sorry-donkey-kong

Notice this is roughly about 5% of the US Wii's, data for each region is not shared. And this only Wiis with data-sharing enabled. The numbers would change very much so if the number of systems with data-sharing rose (And it is)




NewfDraggie said:


> What? it mentions the sunlight issue, so that means it's alright?



Direct sunlight was a issue with IR before you were a dirty thought in your parent's head. It's dealt with the best it can be.



> As a techie, I do realize that it was expensive; As a consumer, I don't care. This is what Nintendo advertised the Wii as being capable of to begin with.



Show me one official press statement that stated this. The press was saying that, Nintendo did not. As as a consumer, you should care, because the price would be passed onto you in some fashion. As a stockholder, you would care because it would impact your earnings. This is why Stringer can't get the PS3 down in price now and also why PS3 repairs cost a crapload, that 1st gen Blu-ray drive.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Aug 6, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Do you live in a basement apartment or otherwise have good enough blinds to stop the sun from hitting the TV / Wii-mote? In my last apartment, the TV was right below the window (with blinds, mind you), and during the daytime, the tracking accuracy at ~4 feet was extremely shaky (to the point where it would get stuck and skip), while getting right up close to the sensor bar smoothed it out.



Nope. Ground level. I've played during the day with the sun glaring right on the screen and have never even had problems with a 360 controller either. The only time I ever had a problem was the time my friend brought an Eyetoy over for a sleepover and the glare kept screwing it up so we couldn't see where we were.


----------



## Runefox (Aug 6, 2009)

> Show me one official press statement that stated this.


Tell me how completely ass-backward it is to say "Yes, our console tracks your motion, but it isn't perfect. Expect an add-on later that adds another purchase to your Wii experience, so then, along with a Nunchaku for every Wii-mote, you get to buy a Motion Plus with every Wii-mote, too! Extravagant."

I mean, the cost of the Wii is fine. It's less than the other consoles both now and when it first arrived. But I don't think I understand how the extra equipment in the Wii Motion Plus (which they say "the cost of making the Wii Motion Plus is not that much, so I think we can make it very affordable") would have drastically affected Nintendo's price point or revenue, except that as an attachment released after launch to address an issue with their motion control, they can receive money for what basically amounts to a bugfix.

I do not see this as an upgrade - You claim you can sense motion with your controller, but yet in order to accurately do so, you need to buy another attachment? It's like releasing a controller without a D-pad that doesn't always register and releasing an attachment to snap on over the original D-pad to fix the problem. It wouldn't be such an issue, but Wii Motion Plus is going to be _required_ by a number of new games (and possibly most new games to release after this), which means you'll _have_ to buy it. That's pretty underhanded, almost like releasing Expansion Pak for the N64 instead of including it to begin with so they could save money. Initial sales, then force the installed base to buy expansions and peripherals to keep playing.



> The press was saying that, Nintendo did not. As as a consumer, you should care, because the *price would be passed onto you in some fashion.*


It is now, and arguably moreso than if it were included at launch.

Nintendo was also the only console manufacturer who released their console with a profit margin, and also with the lowest price point. It would have been very acceptable to either increase the price slightly or take a slight hit compared to the launches of both the 360 and the PS3.



> As a stockholder, you would care because it would impact your earnings. This is why Stringer can't get the PS3 down in price now and also why PS3 repairs cost a crapload, that 1st gen Blu-ray drive.



Maybe so, but it seems like Nintendo is more worried about its stockholders than its consumers, which is a dangerous road to take. I'm starting to see an Apple-like trend of consumer acceptance of things from Nintendo (Vitality Sensor, anyone?)... If they alienate their consumers too much, their stockholders won't _have_ profits to worry about. And I'm terrified of Nintendo being blown out of the mainstream console race. I want to make it clear that I don't hate Nintendo (even if I was a Sega kid); Far from it. I just see this as mismanagement that may end up coming back to haunt them much in the same way as Sega's did in the 90's. The Wii is a successful console, but so was the Genesis - Until the dearth of failed add-ons cropped up and made it the laughing stock of the industry. Nintendo had the right idea then - Keep it simple, don't pile on more than is necessary, let the console run its course, and encourage third parties to develop.



Digitalpotato said:


> Nope. Ground level. I've played during the day with the sun glaring right on the screen and have never even had problems with a *360* controller either. The only time I ever had a problem was the time my friend brought an Eyetoy over for a sleepover and the glare kept screwing it up so we couldn't see where we were.



You mean Wii-mote? The 360 controller uses RF for everything, not IR, and the EyeToy would probably get screwed up by the glare - It's just a webcam, after all.


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> No, you were quoting brainless memes that have been spinning around boards for years and years. You also didn't back up your statement with proof. I will thus counter. with proof.


Proof of what? What the hell are you rambling about? I wasn't quoting anything at all.


> Direct sunlight was a issue with IR before you were a dirty thought in your parent's head. It's dealt with the best it can be.


Doesn't mean I can't use that against the system or the controller, that's a very stupid counter argument there bub.

OH! I'm calling attention to a flaw in xxx, nenner nenner you can't use the flaw against our product now because I told you about it. Hahaha.


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## TehSean (Aug 7, 2009)

Let's put ONlive on the list of flops and failures pre-emptively :^)


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

TehSean said:


> Let's put ONlive on the list of flops and failures pre-emptively :^)



So far it has promise though...everything they've showed works perfectly. Though I know it won't. <..<


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## Kuekuatsheu (Aug 7, 2009)

The Wii is a great console, stop denying it :3
Oh heck, I can't even believe you guys bash the Wii for not being able to play properly in direct sunlight, just... don't play in direct sunlight then????

I want to point out the DSi again, complete waste of money if you have already a DS


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## TehSean (Aug 7, 2009)

The Wii is like AMD's approach to hardware right now. Cheap, power-efficient, and somehow still competitive because they hit their target market. Nothin wrong with that (unless you hate the games or like convenient forms of multiplayer..)


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

Kuekuatsheu said:


> The Wii is a great console, stop denying it :3
> Oh heck, I can't even believe you guys bash the Wii for not being able to play properly in direct sunlight, just... don't play in direct sunlight then????


That's not an excuse, not all gamers live in total darkness. I encountered this problem -every- time I touched the Wiimote, I despised the POS. Worst. Controller. Ever.
Here's how I see gaming consoles:

PC > PS3 > Xbox 360 > Xbox > PS2 > GameCube > Dreamcast > N64 > Wii > PS1 > SNES > Sega Genesis > NES

There's others I'm missing, I know, but yes the N64 > Wii, even today. There's maybe three games I'd play on the Wii, and those I'd get bored of within a few hours and never play again. Brawl for one caught my attention for a few hours, as did that Wario game which was really funny, I can't even think of another game that I would spare time to play. :\


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## Aurali (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> SNES >ALL


FIXED

and no. Shut up. Even today I'll grab an old SNES game and play the FUCK out of it. :3 It is the perfect system.


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## Nocturne (Aug 7, 2009)

Eli said:


> FIXED
> 
> and no. Shut up. Even today I'll grab an old SNES game and play the FUCK out of it. :3 It is the perfect system.



Fucking. This.  SNES and N64 were the most fun of any other systems in their prime.  I miss how video games used to be (//_.)


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## Kuekuatsheu (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> That's not an excuse, not all gamers live in total darkness. I encountered this problem -every- time I touched the Wiimote, I despised the POS. Worst. Controller. Ever.


You can still move the Wii into a darker room or corner of your room, get some real blinds or whatever, don't blame the Wii tho.
And you're not forced to use the Wiimote, you can still use the Classic Controller.


> Here's how I see gaming devices in a chat showing which ones were better:
> 
> PC > PS3 > Xbox 360 > Xbox > PS2 > GameCube > Dreamcast > N64 > Wii > PS1 > SNES > Sega Genesis > NES


Which is absolutely not the point right now... we do not compare the consoles, we just state flaws and discuss :s
Besides everyone has a different view on how good every console is, for me, the Wii is Number 1


> There's others I'm missing, I know, but yes the N64 > Wii, even today. There's maybe three games I'd play on the Wii, and those I'd get bored of within a few hours and never play again. Brawl for one caught my attention for a few hours, as did that Wario game which was really funny, I can't even think of another game that I would spare time to play. :\


True, I play my N64 more often than my Wii too, still my Wii doesn't catch dust, I play Mario Kart every day and Brawl occasionally, as I play all my other Wii games too for like the 10th time, I don't get bored, but then again every person has a different view of a good game (what do you call a good game anyway) and I hate people saying the Wii is for kids and old people. It is not. There might be no blood in Mario games, and everything is colourful and all that stuff but that doesn't mean it's for kids. Mario Kart is a pro-game like any other pro-game on the PS3 or XBox 360... urgh I'm getting Offtopic, I just wanted to state my opinion :3


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

Kuekuatsheu said:


> You can still move the Wii into a darker room or corner of your room, get some real blinds or whatever, don't blame the Wii tho.


Some people simply can't. Like I said anytime I tried to play the Wii it wasn't responsive, it was sluggish, it lagged, it was garbage even at night. It wasn't just the sunlight, the sensor isn't powerful at all.

If I have to use a different controller, another very piss-poor one (the gamecube controller was really bad in my opinion, too) to fix issues a console has...or I have to seclude my console from the rest of my consoles, shunned to a dark room in the back just so the stock controller will function better, but still not perfect...I'm sorry, the gamecube was pretty bad, though at least it had some really awesome games and the Wii is just worse. But that's just my opinion...


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## Nocturne (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Some people simply can't. Like I said anytime I tried to play the Wii it wasn't responsive, it was sluggish, it lagged, it was garbage even at night. It wasn't just the sunlight, the sensor isn't powerful at all.



I would say that you probably just failed at setting up the sensor.  Everyone else I know never had a problem with it.


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

Nocturne said:


> I would say that you probably just failed at setting up the sensor.  Everyone else I know never had a problem with it.


I failed? I've played on five different Wii's, none were set up by myself. If they were all setup wrong (which they weren't) that's another negative for the console; too difficult to even setup.


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## Nocturne (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I failed? I've played on five different Wii's, none were set up by myself. If they were all setup wrong (which they weren't) that's another negative for the console; too difficult to even setup.



If the Wii were really so sluggish and responsive like you said, we would hear alot more about it.  I refuse to believe I have the ONE wii which isn't like that.


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## Kuekuatsheu (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> If I have to use a different controller, another very piss-poor one (the gamecube controller was really bad in my opinion, too) to fix issues a console has...or I have to seclude my console from the rest of my consoles, shunned to a dark room in the back just so the stock controller will function better, but still not perfect...I'm sorry, the gamecube was pretty bad, though at least it had some really awesome games and the Wii is just worse. But that's just my opinion...


I can't tell if the Classic Controller is bad, but I never mentioned the Gamecube controller, you're just bringing this up to make Nintendo look bad.
I love my Wavebird, I can't tell what's bad about the Gamecube controller tho... Oh well, the gameplays are still better than the PS3's and XBox 360's :3



> If the Wii were really so sluggish and responsive like you said, we would hear alot more about it. I refuse to believe I have the ONE wii which isn't like that.


Mine isn't like that too.


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## TehSean (Aug 7, 2009)

Nocturne said:


> If the Wii were really so sluggish and responsive like you said, we would hear alot more about it.  I refuse to believe I have the ONE wii which isn't like that.



It has about 100-300 ms response time.. Which is fine for most of their games.


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

It's not a fault in certain consoles, it's just all the Wii's are like that, you just don't notice it where-as I and anybody else that can see/feel the flaws do. It's not smooth at all, try going from one corner of the screen to the other for instance. There's a large limit to how close you have to be to the sensor bar, the position of the bar and your body (you can't be off to the side or anything), you can't be in sunlight at all, it only detects certain movements and ones it doesn't have the ability to detect will cause it to spas out.


> I can't tell if the Classic Controller is bad, but I never mentioned the Gamecube controller, you're just bringing this up to make Nintendo look bad.


Oh yes, I'm totally against Nintendo for no real reason at all, I thought the "classic" controller was the gamecube one? The wii can use the gamecube one.


> It has about 100-300 ms response time.. Which is fine for most of their games.


Feels a lot like 300ms+ with stutters and a LOT of times it doesn't even detect my movements unless I'm in the -perfect- position.


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## Kuekuatsheu (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> It's not a fault in certain consoles, it's just all the Wii's are like that, you just don't notice it where-as I and anybody else that can see/feel the flaws do. It's not smooth at all, try going from one corner of the screen to the other for instance and there's a large limit to how close you have to be to the sensor bar, the position of the bar and your body (you can't be off to the side or anything), you can't be in sunlight at all, it only detects certain movements and ones it doesn't have the ability to detect will cause it to spas out.


Oh wow, you're ranting about really tiny problems, I just can tell you to get over it and get back to your oh-so-smooth playing PC/PS3/whatever. I can't tell where Mario Kart/Brawl/every other wii game aren't smooth-going games...



> Oh yes, I'm totally against Nintendo for no real reason at all, I thought the "classic" controller was the gamecube one? The wii can use the gamecube one.


No, the Classic Controller was released with the Wii, it's absolutely not the Gamecube controller (else I've would've said Gamecube controller, eh? :3). I just know you can use it as a Wii remote without all the pointing and moving (you're moving the "mouse" in the Wii Menu with the joystick)


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## Foxstar (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I failed? I've played on five different Wii's, none were set up by myself. If they were all setup wrong (which they weren't) that's another negative for the console; too difficult to even setup.



Excuses, excuses.


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## TheResult (Aug 7, 2009)

For the rec, I've played my Wii, and other Wiis, at several different locations, set up by several different people, at several different times of the day; me and my friends, we're Wii fiends, we like to get together and play the party games.

Anyway, I've never had any trouble with the Wii's tracking that _wasn't simply fixed by adjusting the Sensor Bar's sensitivity in the Wii's options menu_. That always fixed it for me, sunlight or not. No problem setting it up, either.

I still have problems with Brawl, though.

Goddamn first-generation Wii.


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## Runefox (Aug 7, 2009)

TehSean said:


> Let's put ONlive on the list of flops and failures pre-emptively :^)



Oh god yes.



NewfDraggie said:


> So far it has promise though...everything they've showed works perfectly. Though I know it won't. <..<


No. No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no. I've already explained this one to death - Internet latency isn't good enough for this sort of thing to be playable. It's not uncommon to have pings somewhere around 80ms to a server. Take that 80ms, and multiply it by two (input goes to server, server acknowledges, server processes and sends response back, client acknowledges), and assuming everything else is absolutely perfect, you'll likely get an _input_ lag of _at least_ around 160ms which, to me, considering LCD monitor latency is sometimes too bad to play games on, is unacceptable, especially on a multiplayer game where the in-game lag could be just as bad (unless you're playing multiplayer with another OnLive player using their internal network).

In addition:



> The OnLive service will be hosted in five co-located North American data centres. Currently there are facilities in Santa Clara, CA and Virginia, and one being fitted out in Texas.[13] It is claimed users must be located within 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of one of these to receive a high quality service.



Also, video compression artifacts. It's not possible to stream even DVD-quality video and audio through most broadband connections, and while H.264 is better than DVD in terms of quality per bit, you're definitely going to see and hear compression artifacts, pretty much like a series of JPEG files. Text would be my major concern, since that normally gets blasted pretty hard with video compression.


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## Foxstar (Aug 7, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Oh god yes.
> 
> 
> No. No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no. I've already explained this one to death - Internet latency isn't good enough for this sort of thing to be playable. It's not uncommon to have pings somewhere around 80ms to a server. Take that 80ms, and multiply it by two (input goes to server, server acknowledges, server processes and sends response back, client acknowledges), and assuming everything else is absolutely perfect, you'll likely get an _input_ lag of _at least_ around 160ms which, to me, considering LCD monitor latency is sometimes too bad to play games on, is unacceptable, especially on a multiplayer game where the in-game lag could be just as bad (unless you're playing multiplayer with another OnLive player using their internal network).
> ...



Your trying to explain tech to someone who doesn't understand it. Your wasting your time. We could have Bill and Steve break it down for him, he would simply go 'NU-UH'


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## lilEmber (Aug 7, 2009)

Uh, he's a ex-roomate of mine, he knows I understand it whereas you're just in denial about your purchase. Even he ditched his Wii.


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## Foxstar (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Uh, he's a ex-roomate of mine, he knows I understand it whereas you're just in denial about your purchase. Even he ditched his Wii.



Yup, I'm sure in some denial. Yes sir.


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## Runefox (Aug 7, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Even he ditched his Wii.



My Wii was purchased during a time when we had a bunch of people over a lot of the time. Games like WarioWare and Mario Party were awesome, and then when everyone went their own separate ways, it left the Wii collecting dust. I didn't really have anything that I wanted to play on it, so except for doing polls and stuff, it didn't get much use at all.

I sort of wish I didn't sell it, but it _was_ turned into delicious food. Frankly, if the new Metroid game and the new entry into the New Super Mario Bros series turn out to be decent, I might have to try and grab another one. Unfortunately, because of Wii Motion Plus, it _will_ be more expensive to buy the second time around.

Like I keep saying, I want to like the Wii, but there isn't much that caters to my genres of choice, and nothing that's really a must-have (I realize Brawl is popular, and if it hadn't been delayed so much, I wouldn't have sold my Wii, but after playing it a bit at a friend's place, I'm not a fan. I wasn't really a fan of Melee, either; I'm terrible at both games, and I don't know why; For some reason, the gameplay seems to "feel" different from SSB64, which I'm actually fairly good at).


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## TheResult (Aug 7, 2009)

I have a lot of games on my Wii, and while they _usually_ don't have a lot of replayability ( particularly the single player games, as we all know that any _good_ multiplayer games on the Wii usually stay just that: multiplayer games ) I find myself replaying them because of how much I like them, despite having little more to do the second time around. Games like No More Heroes, Zack and Wiki, and the Metroid series. If Nintendo could actually get their games to stock up on some more _replayability_ instead of just mini-games, I think they'd have a winning formula.

Oh, and Wiiware games. Not just, y'know, old Virtual Console stuff that I could really just get on an Emulator, but the original stuff you can download is actually pretty fun.

Thankfully my friends are whores for party games so the Wii is never left alone for too long; and I wouldn't be able to sell it even if they didn't come for the party games, just because I don't have my Gamecube any more and I need it to play those games too.

xD


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