# Blah! Dialogue



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

I hate writing a lot of dialogue. I guess that is what happens when you get into script writing mode though....or when you are writing a fanfic of a comic. Damn! Yeah, I am working on my Ghost in the Shell fanfic story and it is ending up as just a bunch of banter back and forth. I don't even read stories like that. Anyone have any pointers on how to fix it?

Here's a little bit of what I have:

â€œSo, that thing has a cyberbrain?â€ Batou asked as he sat on the edge of the large bed in the hotel room.
	â€œYup. He is nearly fully prosthetic as well. Kind of like me,â€ answered the Major.
	â€œDamn. They stuck the ghost of a wolf inside a cyberbrain and gave it a body.â€
â€œExcuse you, Mr. Batou, but you itâ€™s not like you are all that usual yourself.â€ Elonay said as the Major worked on piecing him back together with the help of an uplink from Ishikawa.
	â€œHey, look, buddy, I donâ€™t need any smart aleck remarks from a dog,â€ Batou said.
â€œI am not a dog, Mr. Batou. I am a wolf,â€ came a stern remark.
	â€œBut who would want you dead, Elonay. Thatâ€™s what I canâ€™t figure out,â€ Motoko wondered as she made a couple welds.
â€œYou two should take a look.â€ The Major and Batou both pulled out their jacks and connected them to the small holes in the back of the wolfâ€™s neck before inserting the other end into their own neck. Instantly the image of a large laboratory appeared  before their eyes. â€œThis is main lab of the ACS. We have had a string of malfunctions in our cyberbrains recently and I was trying to see if I could work out the kinks. But then these two goons interrupted me.â€ They see two big men, one with a cybernetic eye barg through the door and start shooting. In a moment the image cuts out. â€œThatâ€™s all I could record before one of those bullets damaged my storage.â€
	â€œACS?â€ Batou wondered.
	â€œAnimal Cybernetics Society,â€ said Motoko as she connected a few more wires. â€œTheyâ€™re a charity organization that has been developing cyberbrains and prosthetic bodies and organs for animals for the past eight years. The ACS was founded by Elonay here with the help of his creator, Dr. Dora Whinly.â€
â€œAlright, Major, that should do it for now. Eventually he will need a better overhaul, but that should last him. Itâ€™s an honor to be helping the Father of Animal Cybernetics.â€ Ishikawa said through their connection.
â€œWho would want to hijack animal cyberbrains?â€ Batou wondered.
â€œI have been wondering the same thing. It has almost forced use to shut our doors and stop research. If it wasnâ€™t for donations from people like the Major and Section 9, I would be looking for another job,â€ explained the wolf.
â€œIt could be just a group of protesters trying to shut you down,â€ Kusanagi suggested.
â€œMaybe, but I have a feeling that who ever attacked me is also behind the malfunctions in our cyberbrains. Mr. Ishikawa. I am going to upload some data to you, see what you think.â€ Several schematics danced across everyoneâ€™s eyes and the screens back at Section 9.
â€œShit! The entire code looks as if someoneâ€™s rewritten it...while it was still in operation,â€ Ishikawa replied.
â€œMy thoughts exactly. I noticed this when I was doing my analysis of some of the cyberbrains,â€ Elonay agreed.
â€œHmmâ€¦â€ Major said. â€œMind if I bring this to Aramakiâ€™s attention?â€
	â€œBe my guest. I was thinking of asking for Section 9â€™s help anyway,â€ Elonay said vocally.
	â€œWow! And you can actually talk, too. Man, your creator really went all out on you didnâ€™t she?â€ Batou commented.
	â€œYes, she did. I sacrificed my own life to save hers. In return she put my ghost in a cyberbrain and built me a body. The speech was something she worked of for two years before she succeeded.
	â€œSo, Elonay, how do you know Major?â€the big man wondered.
	â€œI met her in high school. Dr. Whinly brought me in to show the school. We ended up bonding over the fact that we both have prosthetic bodies,â€ Elonay replied.
	â€œAnd you know what they say. A girl and her wolf are never separated. Dora died a few months after we first met and she left me Elonay in her will. When I joined Section 9, we decided that it wasnâ€™t a good idea to stay together any more and he moved off to Washington and started the ACS,â€ the Major explained.
	Elonay suddenly snapped his head towards the door. â€œMajor, did you happen to bring any of your Tachikoma with you?â€
	â€œNo, why?â€
	â€œI am tracking six large heat sources. They are cybernetic and they are online. Not a very sophisticated firewall though,â€ Elonay replied as his right eye visually turned  and zoomed with a mechanic whine.
	â€œTracking? For how long?â€ Batou wondered.
	â€œFor the past twenty minutes or 15 miles, which ever impresses you more.â€
	â€œHey, what did I tell you about giving me grief?â€
	â€œYouâ€™re right, Motoko, he is a curmudgeon,â€ Elonay and Motoko shared a laugh while Batou just scowled.
â€œWhat kind of firepower are you reading?â€ wonder the Major.
â€œTake a look.â€ Instantly, the heat sources of six large machines appeared before the eyes of the humans. In a moment the schematics of the machines appeared.
â€œShit! Those things are loaded. We donâ€™t stand a chance in hell against those things.â€ Batou assessed.
	â€œActually, those particular tanks haveâ€¦..â€ The images before their eyes scrambled into static for a minute then flickered back to life, only they were different somehow. The image was finer and no more inferred, the full tanks were clearly visible. In a corner in of the image a small box was  filled with what looked like binary only with every number from 0-9.
â€œWhat the hell is going on?â€ The Major asked.
â€œSoul Resonance. Bear with me a moment. I maybe a machine, but the soul of the wolf I once was still races through this body. Sometimes it interferes with my cyberbrain and sometimes it enhances everything. Which is why you are seeing the full tanks now,â€ Elonay explained. â€œThe numbers in the corner are the Soul Sequence. I have not figured out any mathematical structure to them. But, as I was saying before, these tanks have a particular weakness here.â€ small rings  appeared around a seemingly arbitrary point on the tanks haul. â€œThis  point is very susceptible to gun fireâ€¦â€ The images scrambled again and there was an odd voice from somewhere.
	â€œSoul Resonance, huh?â€ Batou asked.
â€œElonay, are you still there?â€ The Major wondered. There was a long pause on silence.
â€œYes, I am still here, Motoko. Recalculating the movement of the tanks. They have been immobilized. I suggest we get back to Japan while we still have the chance,â€ Replied the wolf.
	â€œImmobilized? How the hell?â€ Batou wondered.
â€œI will explain everything when we are safely within the confines of Section 9,â€ said Elonay.


----------



## E-mannor (Aug 27, 2008)

add explosions... scantily clad women, and more swearing and you have a grade A anime scene, hehe

just break it up with some action... or let the reader assume some of the information in the dialogue... it makes it more interactive


----------



## Kimmerset (Aug 27, 2008)

The best thing you can do is actively try to steer clear of holding a full convesation.  Perhaps change the situation so that so much dialogue isn't needed, or try describing the scenario/situation from the point of view of the main character and talk only when a character needs an update of the situation.

Hope that helped some.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

I usually do try to steer clear of a lot of conversation.  Maybe changing the POV will help. Blah! it looks hideous with all the quotation marks.

E-mannor. thanks for the compliments. I hate writing action (and yet I am writing a GITS fanfic. I know) but I will try it.

(There. The underline parts here represent the online chatter.)


----------



## Kimmerset (Aug 27, 2008)

I end up writing a lot of dialogue myself and try to keep away from it.  It just kind of happens over time for me and editing over the old stuff with what I've learned takes care of the rest of it.


----------



## Hanazawa (Aug 27, 2008)

You use so many words like "wondered", "said", "agreed".

Take: â€œTracking? For how long?â€ Batou wondered.

Try: â€œTracking? For how long?â€ Batou quirked an eyebrow.

_Show_ the character's emotive state through actions and expressions, rather than _telling_. You've started to do this a little bit, but combining this technique with more varied sentence structure a la:

Batou quirked an eyebrow. â€œTracking? For how long?â€

...will make your writing a little less monotonous.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

*gives Hana a big hug* thank you. that is a good idea. mind if I steal your example?


----------



## Tremaine (Aug 27, 2008)

I notice that when you write, you write almost entirely as such:

_"Dialogue," said the character, as they performed an action._

You might want to try breaking it up a bit. Don't be afraid to start a new paragraph with action, or even having action between two sets of the same dialogue. Below are separate examples of what you could use.

"Huh," Character_A pondered, rubbing his chin. "That's interesting!"

Character_B stared quizzically at Character_A. "Just what are you looking at?" 
Character_C shrugged. "Hmm, nothing," he murmured.

Her communicator was beeping incessantly now. With a great, regretful sigh, Character_D gazed out of the starship's window, marveling at the great expanse of the green and blue planet below. She flicked her smoldering cigarette aside, trying not to think about how this would be the last time she'd see this awesome sight. Wishing there was any other way she opened her communicator and replied. "I'm ready."


----------



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

Tremaine. crap! I used  to write like that I should post another little chunk if my work to compare to this one, but still. I used to do as little dialogue as possible. (when you don't have a lot of dialogue "he said"  "she said" is perfectly fine. but when you get into the constant stuff like above, tactics must change.)


----------



## kitreshawn (Aug 27, 2008)

Dang.  I have a whole journal entry devoted to just this.  I would link you but it seems FA is down as normal.


----------



## Frasque (Aug 27, 2008)

Try putting in a few chunks of action or description to break up the dialog. 
One problem I have is what I call "call and response" dialog, where characters are just spouting information back and forth at each other, which ends up sounding unnatural. Real conversations tend to wander, and as long as you don't have a word limit you might try that - have the character discuss something besides the plot at hand.

BTW, this sounds like a cool idea for a story and I'm eager to read it when it's done!


----------



## M. LeRenard (Aug 27, 2008)

Nothing wrong with a lot of dialogue (unless it's boring dialogue).  It makes the reader feel more accomplished, because the pages just fly by.
I'm skimming through what you wrote here, though, and I'd have to say that you should be careful of all the 'wondered', 'scowled', 'reprimanded', etc.  You can change them around if you want to, but make sure at least that they always make sense.  One example that doesn't make sense is: "'Tracking? For how long?' Batou wondered."  This leads me to believe that he's just thinking this to himself, you know?  'Wondered aloud' would be better, but you might as well just stick with 'said' most of the time anyway, to keep it simpler.  Or leave it off entirely, and get some other way to make it obvious who's talking.  Tremaine's example is best, I think; people are talking, something happens, we see surface thoughts of the characters, pertinent dialogue follows along.  Makes it more personal.
Also, it makes it a lot more interesting if you mix things up a little bit here and there.  For example, most of your dialogue consists of Character A asking a question, Character B giving a direct answer, Character C adding something to this answer, copy paste repeat.  Example:


> "So, that thing has a cyberbrain?" Batou asked as he sat on the edge of the large bed in the hotel room.
> "Yup. He is nearly fully prosthetic as well. Kind of like me," answered the Major.


Could become:


> "So, that thing has a cyberbrain?" Batou asked as he sat on the edge of the large bed in the hotel room.
> "An experimental new design, to fit organisms other than humans," the Major replied.


Or something like that.  The expected answer is 'yup', as you had it before, but it draws more attention if it seems like the response is going onto some other tangent.  And it seems to me that the Major had a habit of answering questions this way in the anime, as well, so you'd be keeping it truer to form. 
Hopefully that helps.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

Thanks, guys. It does help. I am going to probably do some major (no puns intended or wanted here) editing today or tomorrow. I will post the revised version once it is edited, an then I will try to finish the story and post it to FA for all to enjoy.


----------



## kitreshawn (Aug 27, 2008)

Eh, now I have had a chance to look at my journals and it isn't there, so maybe I did it in the forums instead.

Basically there were only several points.  First was that you should use the words Said, Asked, Told, and Answered almost exclusively (like 90-95% of the time).  More specific words like "growled" or "hissed" or "shouted" should be avoided for the most part.  Your dialogue should be able to convey how they are saying what they are saying if you are doing a good job.

Also be careful of words like "hissed".  Make sure it is possible to hiss something before you say someone hissed it.  For example, it is impossible to hiss the question "Really?"

There are many other ways to sign post who is saying what as well.  Have them do something then put their dialogue in:

The major picked up her gun.  "We'd better get going."

Done like this people naturally assume that the major said it (and correctly so).

Also you can put names in dialogue, which makes it very clear who is talking if only 2 characters are present.

Finally, be sure to break up dialogue with actions from time to time, and have about 1 non-dialogue paragraph every page or so for especially long exchanges.  This gives the reader a break, gives the sense that the story is moving forward in other ways other than conversation, and also gives you a chance to ensure the reader knows who is doing (and saying) what.


----------



## foozzzball (Aug 27, 2008)

Dialogue is your brick and mortar. Conversation is _important_. How the heck do you 'not even read stories like that'? Reading is, in one sense, far more important for a writer than actually writing.

I will grant you, your scene is a little lengthy and you don't seem to have picked up on dialogue techniques yet. Also your grammar seems wonky. Stuff like; _"Words," said person._ I'm no expert, but it seems to me that needs to be; _Person said, "words." _or _"Words," person said._

Also, 



> (when you don't have a lot of dialogue "he said" "she said" is perfectly fine. but when you get into the constant stuff like above, tactics must change.)



No. No no no. _No_. Do _not_ get out a thesaurus for alternate words for 'said'. Stuff like;



> â€œShit! Those things are loaded. We donâ€™t stand a chance in hell against those things.â€ Batou assessed.



is not what you should be doing. Ignoring the 'those things' repetition and trite dialogue, how the hell do you 'assess' a verbalization like that? If you end up with text like; _"Look," John shuddered._ Apparently John is, in that piece, producing that word by shuddering so fast the word mysteriously _appears_. 'Assessing' has nothing to do with the creation of noise. 'Asked' is usable since it's related to the creation of words. Okay, it is more of a style thing, but it's one of the things that drive me up the wall. Don't do it.

Are you still in high school? If so, English class is your best friend. Ask questions, get help from your teacher. You _need_ to improve your grammar.

Also your fanfic appears to have a Marty-Stu (as opposed to Mary Sue) wolf in it.


----------



## Science Fox (Aug 27, 2008)

You know a great tool for writing dialogue is to go into town and listen to how people talk for a few hours. You can gleen so much from doing so, and that will allow you to create some very interesting characters with great dialogue. Different personalities, accents, dialects, how often the vernacular is used, how often people curse... it is really a wonderful tool. Besides that, you certainly must have an ear for it.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

foozzzball said:


> Dialogue is your brick and mortar. Conversation is _important_. How the heck do you 'not even read stories like that'? Reading is, in one sense, far more important for a writer than actually writing.
> 
> I will grant you, your scene is a little lengthy and you don't seem to have picked up on dialogue techniques yet. Also your grammar seems wonky. Stuff like; _"Words," said person._ I'm no expert, but it seems to me that needs to be; _Person said, "words." _or _"Words," person said._
> 
> ...





Yeah, I can really see how insulting me is going to make me value your opinion. It is a rough draft, slick. I am not going to throw a final draft on here for critiquing because Final implies that it would be the way I want it.

When you are trying to critique something, you should be a bit nicer....like everyone else has been. Because if you critique with an attitude you are criticizing rather than critiquing, and that just makes you look stupid for blaspheming a rough draft.


Everyone else. thanks for the tips. I will be sure to incorporate at least some of them as I begin my first edit.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 27, 2008)

alright. here is take two. After some editing and incorporating some of the tips you guys suggested.

â€œSo, that thing has a cyberbrain?â€ Batou quipped as he took a seat on the edge of the large bed.
	â€œA prototype design, created specifically to be used in animals,â€ answered the Major.
	The big man shook his head. â€œDamn. They stuck the ghost of a wolf inside a cyberbrain and gave it a body.â€
	The Major worked on piecing Elonay back together with the help of an uplink from Ishikawa. â€œExcuse you, Mr. Batou, but you itâ€™s not like you are all that usual yourself.â€
	â€œHey, buddy, I donâ€™t need any smart aleck remarks from a dog,â€ Batou frowned.
	â€œI am not a dog, Mr. Batou. I am a wolf,â€ came a stern remark.
	Motoko wondered as she made a couple welds. She was still confused about the events of the day. â€œBut who would want you dead, Elonay? Thatâ€™s what I canâ€™t figure out.â€ 
	â€œYou two should take a look.â€ The Major and Batou both pulled out their jacks and connected them to the small holes in the back of the wolfâ€™s neck before inserting the other end into their own necks. Instantly the image of a large laboratory appeared  before their eyes. â€œThis is main lab of the ACS. We have had a string of malfunctions in our cyberbrains recently and I was trying to see if I could work out the kinks. But then these two goons interrupted me.â€ They see two big men, one with a cybernetic eye barge through the door and start shooting. In a moment the image cuts out. â€œThatâ€™s all I could record before one of those bullets damaged my storage.â€
	â€œACS?â€ Batou wondered.
	Motoko connected a few more wires â€œAnimal Cybernetics Society. Theyâ€™re a charity organization that has been developing cyberbrains and prosthetic bodies and organs for animals for the past eight years. The ACS was founded by Elonay here with the help of his creator, Dr. Dora Whinly.â€
	â€œAlright, Major, that should do it for now. Eventually he will need a better overhaul, but that should last him. Itâ€™s an honor to be helping the Father of Animal Cybernetics.â€ Ishikawa spoke through their connection.
	â€œWho would want to hijack animal cyberbrains?â€ Batou read over some of the news  reports involving the ACSâ€™s cyberbrain malfunctions.
	â€œI have been wondering the same thing. It has almost forced use to shut our doors and stop research. If it wasnâ€™t for donations from people like the Major and Section 9, I would be looking for another job,â€ sighed the wolf.
	Kusanagi shrugged.â€œIt could be just a group of protesters trying to shut you down.â€ 
	â€œMaybe, but I have a feeling that who ever attacked me is also behind the malfunctions in our cyberbrains. Mr. Ishikawa. I am going to upload some data to you, see what you think.â€ Several schematics danced across everyoneâ€™s eyes and the screens back at Section 9.
	â€œShit! The entire code looks as if someoneâ€™s tried to rewrite it...while it was still in operation!â€ Ishikawa exclaimed.
	â€œMy thoughts exactly. I noticed this when I was doing my analysis of some of the cyberbrains,â€ Elonay agreed.
	â€œHmmâ€¦â€ Major thought for a moment as she stroked the synthetic fur of her solf friend, clearing the sensors of any debris or dust that had collected on them. â€œMind if I bring the rest of team in on this?â€
	â€œBe my guest. I was thinking of asking for Section 9â€™s help anyway,â€ came the audible response from the large prosthetic canine.
	Batou almost jumped off his bed when Elonay uttered his first vocal words. â€œWhoa! It can actually talk, too. Man, your creator really went all out on you didnâ€™t she?â€ 
	â€œYes, she did. I sacrificed my own life to save hers. In return she put my ghost in a cyberbrain and built me a body. The speech was something she worked on for two years before she succeeded.â€
	Batou calmed down a bit. â€œSo, Elonay, how do you know Major?â€ 
	â€œI met her in high school. Dr. Whinly brought me in to show the school. We ended up bonding over the fact that we both have prosthetic bodies,â€ Elonay smiled.
	â€œAnd you know what they say. A girl and her wolf are never separated. Dora died a few months after we first met and she left me Elonay in her will. When I joined Section 9, we decided that it wasnâ€™t a good idea to stay together any more and he moved off to Washington and started the ACS,â€ the Major added.
	Elonay suddenly snapped his head towards the door. â€œMajor, did you happen to bring any of your Tachikoma with you?â€
	â€œNo, why?â€
	Elonayâ€™s right eye visually turned and zoomed with a mechanic whine.â€œI am tracking six large heat sources. They are cybernetic and they are online. Not a very sophisticated firewall though,â€ 
	Batou whipped out his gun and sprang from the bed. â€œTracking?! For how long?â€
	Elonay craned his head in Batouâ€™s direction. â€œFor the past twenty minutes or 15 miles, which ever impresses you more,â€
	â€œHey, what did I tell you about giving me grief?â€ Batou growled
	â€œYouâ€™re right, Motoko, he is a curmudgeon,â€ Elonay and Motoko shared a laugh while Batou just scowled.
	The Major glanced towards the door. â€œWhat kind of firepower are you reading?â€
	â€œTake a look.â€ Instantly, the heat sources of six large machines appeared before the eyes of the humans. In a moment the schematics of the machines appeared.
	Batou punched the bed in frustration. â€œShit! Those things are loaded. We donâ€™t stand a chance in hell against those things.â€ 
	â€œActually, those particular tanks haveâ€¦..â€ The images before their eyes scrambled into static for a minute then flickered back to life, only they were different somehow. The image was finer and no more inferred. The full tanks were clearly visible. In a corner in of the image a small box was  filled with what looked like binary only with every number from 0-9.
	â€œWhat the hell is going on?â€ The Major pulled out her gun in the sudden silence.
	â€œSoul Resonance. Bear with me a moment. I maybe a machine, but the soul of the wolf I once was still races through this body. Sometimes it interferes with my cyberbrain and sometimes it enhances everything. Which is why you are seeing the full tanks now,â€ There were several mechanical whines as Elonay worked on resetting and restarting some internal devices.  â€œThe numbers in the corner are the Soul Sequence. I have not figured out any mathematical structure to them.
	â€œBut, as I was saying before, these tanks have a particular weakness here.â€ small rings appeared around seemingly arbitrary points on the tanks hauls. â€œThis point is very susceptible to gun fireâ€¦â€ The images scrambled again and there was an odd voice from somewhere, but what ever it said was far beyond what Batou or the Major could understand.
	â€œSoul Resonance, huh?â€ Batou shook his head.
	â€œElonay, are you still there?â€ The Major asked after a moment. There was a long pause on silence.
	â€œYes, I am still here, Motoko. Recalculating the movement of the tanks. They have been immobilized. I suggest we get back to Japan while we still have the chance,â€ Replied the wolf.
	â€œImmobilized? How the hell?â€ Batou shouted in his confusion.
	The grey wolf started towards the door of the hotel room. â€œI will explain everything when we are safely within the confines of Section 9.â€


(I am not going to point out the cyber chatter this time.)


----------



## M. LeRenard (Aug 28, 2008)

> Batou quipped


Egads... I HATE that word.  That said, I don't think you're using it quite right.
Webster's: 1. To make quips. 2. To jest, to gibe.
I think this is one of the reasons it's best to stick with more generic words for dialogue.  It's real easy to run into the trap of not using quite the right word, because often-times you'll find yourself stretching just so you don't use 'said' again, or 'replied' again.  Most people skip over those tags, anyhow; only interchange the generics for something else when it's really important to do so.  Funny cartoon that illustrates the dangers of going overboard on dialogue tags: http://www.homestarrunner.com/stuckincraw.html
foozzzball may have said it like a total douche, but you should probably consider some of his advice anyway.  It's valid.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 28, 2008)

yeah there are a couple of points that I am still mulling over. The quipped part is one of them. But The good thing is that I know have an idea of where I want to do with the story. Anyways. The next version will be the final I think.


----------



## foozzzball (Aug 28, 2008)

...

The phrase 'this is a rough draft' is not an excuse for mediocrity. If you want your second draft to look like your first, by all means, only listen to the people who are going to be very kind on their 'critiques', myself, I would prefer straight out criticism.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but if _that_ offended you I would be kind of stunned if you managed to survive your first editor. I have to admit I thought you were a teenager, and I apologise. I just kind of assumed that.

I was looking around on your FA for something 'finished' to take a look at but the first couple of things I looked at were apparently drafts - could you point me at something you'd consider 'finished' and/or publishable? Your profile mentions that you're a published author but not where or how you're published?

Also? The word blaspheme is exclusively - _exclusively_ - used to refer to taking the name of God in vain, speaking against doctrine of the church, etcetera. Please do not apply it to speaking against 'rough drafts'.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 28, 2008)

Blasphemy - The act or offense of speaking sacriligously about God or sacred things; profane talk

Maybe you should try to do a little more digging other than checking out my FA profile. And I survived 2 and half fucking years in the fucking military. And I am not offended It just pisses me of when fucking assholes like you come around and think you are hot shit and start ripping into people for no fucking reason.

oh, and there is NO WAY I am going to link you directly to any "finished works" of mine because I don't give a shit about your opinion. If you want the info, work for it, you fucking cuntsucker.

P.S. Don't come slapping people around when you have 7 fucking comments. play nice for a little bit and let people get used to you.

P.P.S. criticizing the rough draft of a piece of work is like bitching to a sculpture that his work is just a lump of clay when he hasn't started sculpting the thing yet. Mistakes and lapses in grammar actual occur quite a bit in rough draft, but I bet you have never seen anything like that, and probably wouldn't understand seeing as you are Mr. Fucking Perfect.


----------



## kitreshawn (Aug 28, 2008)

Foozzzball, call down.  There is a difference between giving critique, no matter how harsh it is, and being an outright ass.

You are rapidly crossing the line from harsh critique to bastard (assuming your last message didn't push you over the edge).

You are only half correct in saying that "this is a rough draft" is not an excuse.  It is certainly not an excuse to balk at people pointing out errors, however you miss the point completely that writing is about re-writing.  You throw down your ideas first and more often than not they sound stupid and you need to edit it.

Because of that how about you hold off on ripping someone until they have a chance to go through several edits and maybe *gasp* use some of the suggestions you gave?


Finally, for someone who seems to think he has all the answers you make some mistakes of your own.  For example:

ONE meaning of blaspheme is to take the name of god in vain but it can also be used in other manners.  For example:

Blaspheme: to curse; utter obscenities or profanities; "The drunken men were cursing loudly in the street" 
Blaspheme: to speak evil of; slander; abuse. 
Blaspheme: To revile; execrate.

Those are from 3 different dictionaries btw.

Also, in your first post you mentioned:

"Stuff like; "Words," said person. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that needs to be; Person said, "words." or "Words," person said."

Here you are just flat out wrong.  It is 100% acceptable to use "WORDS," said person.  In fact it is much more accepted to go with that usage than "WORDS," person said.


And finally, people who go about giving critique the way you do generally fail because nobody likes listening to someone who is openly ridiculing them (or who even sounds like they are openly ridiculing them).  In all likelihood your type of critique is going to do more damage than good no matter how technically correct your so called "help" is.  And understand I say this BEING an editor.

It was perfectly correct for him to point out that you are being far too judgmental.  That you got defensive because of such an obvious point only shows that you have a very sensitive ego.

So in closing, for someone who apparently knows it all you need to sit down and be quiet until you learn some more or until you learn how to be more gracious.  People who are learning to write do NOT need you around and will do better with you gone.

Since you seem to have all the answers when it comes to style in writing how about you take the leap and post something publicly for critique here?  It takes a serious amount of bravery to write something and then go out and ask someone else what they think, and much more to throw it out to a bunch of strangers you have never met asking for help.  So show some respect for that, the simple fact that he is asking shows a willingness to learn.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 28, 2008)

wow!, thank you, kite. seriously. I respect and appreciate that.


----------



## foozzzball (Aug 28, 2008)

Having taken your advice and poked around for your book after you called me something very nasty, I. .... I'm just going to stay out of it. All I can say is develop a thick skin and tone the language down a notch, please. This is a public forum, kids around, etcetera. 


Kitre, okay. Well. 

Uhh. Let's see. In general if someone posts something in public I consider it to be... viewable by the public. And, one should try for a degree of professionalism in anything you show the public. It's... fair game to me.

On the definition of Blasphemy, okay, you can use a lot of dictionaries and get a lot of differing concepts on the meaning of any word. Cambridge, for instance, says more about the theological aspects and less about the swearing. (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=7958&dict=CALD) I just wouldn't use the term 'blaspheme' like that. It doesn't fit my understanding of the meaning. Agree to disagree?

On dialogue... I don't agree. Whenever dialogue comes up in my copy of 'The Elements of Style' it seems to be "words," [person] said. If you replace the noun for the person with a pronoun it's a little clearer - "Words," said he. - versus - "Words," he said. 

I think it might be that passive voice thing? Granted I'm not an expert, I am just an amateur hack after all, but it just doesn't look right to me. If you ask me what I think it is, I think it's wrong.

As for posting something for people to have a return shot at savaging my work to pieces as I have apparently done, uh, alright! I'm just going to have to dig around for a bit, since nothing I'm currently working on is suitable since I'm trying to get it sold.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Aug 28, 2008)

All anyone asks for is a little tact, foozzz (I keep having to look at your name to see if I'm spelling it right).  No need to immediately assume a condescending position once you spot the first error.  Have you seen any of the other works of writing that populate this blessed internet of ours?  Shouden's piece is a work of God compared to the majority of it.
Rule of thumb: if the error isn't totally obvious, don't assume the person should know, and if it is, *kindly* point it out.
This writing forum has always been a fairly friendly place, because it's for *newcomers* to writing.  The vast majority of us here are amateurs, and the vast majority of amateurs don't take kindly to being kicked in the face with critique.  Just be a little more diplomatic in the future, would you?  It'll make things easier for everyone.  We don't need another Rants and Raves section.
Thanks.


----------



## Shouden (Aug 29, 2008)

Man this thing is giving me all sorts of trouble. Fan fiction is hard. Well, here is the First draft of it. I will do the final editing and touches tomorrow. It's short, and I might include a gob more details and things in there and the ending might change, but, I don't know. This thing is pissing me off a little. (I used to be a better writer than this. I need to do some story writing for a bit so I don't get too rusty at it.) Anyways have a look. (sorry about the word format.)


----------



## kitreshawn (Aug 29, 2008)

Shouden said:


> Man this thing is giving me all sorts of trouble. Fan fiction is hard. Well, here is the First draft of it. I will do the final editing and touches tomorrow. It's short, and I might include a gob more details and things in there and the ending might change, but, I don't know. This thing is pissing me off a little. (I used to be a better writer than this. I need to do some story writing for a bit so I don't get too rusty at it.) Anyways have a look. (sorry about the word format.)



Fanfiction, I find, always is hard to do a good job with.  The main problem is that you have established characters that you didn't make.  This makes it more difficult to write in a way that feels natural with them.

In addition because Fanfiction tends to go for popular series you run into the problem of everyone has a slightly different view on what is the "correct" way for a character to act.  Often people are very attached to their ideas of how a character should act and will hate your work if it challenges that perception.


----------

