# SecuROM is hurting the legal customers more than the pirates, don't  you agree?



## WolfoxOkamichan (Jun 6, 2008)

Seriously, it takes only a few days or even hours for a pirate cracker to crack the executable while legit customers suffer the various "under-the-table" applications and accusations of the "protective" program.

Why is there really a need for secu-ROMs anyway?


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## Drayen (Jun 6, 2008)

I've got to agree on this one, at least when it comes to Mass Effect and Bioshock protection. I didn't have any trouble with that, I have DSL connection so I couldn't care less but still, I want to play my game in peace, without having them check on me all the time. But what about those people who still use 56k or don't have access to internet at all? Sucks a lot.


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## Eevee (Jun 6, 2008)

I wonder if pirates will ever take responsibility for this  8)


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## lilEmber (Jun 6, 2008)

Eevee said:


> I wonder if pirates will ever take responsibility for this  8)



Not a chance, because software, music, movie...etc... download and use in Canada is not illegal, we pay taxes, everyone dose, on these items that our government forces that cover it all, and no one notices...



So I can torrent, p2p, or mod anything and all fully legal <3


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## Eevee (Jun 7, 2008)

Obviously anything that's legal is okay.


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## supercutefurri58 (Jun 7, 2008)

well fuck! i stop buying programs as soon as they start asking for online activation, so this is way past the "i will take my business elsewhere" point for me.

i feel validated in my actions.


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## lilEmber (Jun 7, 2008)

Eevee said:


> Obviously anything that's legal is okay.



But its not leagal in US so thats we here in Canada get a lot of crap for this even though we are allowed, we have issues doing it because of the US not being allowed to..


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## CyberFoxx (Jun 8, 2008)

Personally, I find these copy-protection schemes to be trivial or annoying at best. Whenever I go to install or play a game, I'm always doing it from a burnt copy. The original disk I keep in a safe place. (Yay for Canadian copyright laws that say I can actually do this!) But when I do make a copy, I make the image, edit the image to add the latest update/patches and no-cd/no-dvd crack, then burn it to disk.

The only game that still makes me laugh to this day, is The Sims Double Deluxe. I have yet to be able to install it from the original media, the copy protection in the installer always fails. I actually have to install it from a burnt copy. A good example that copy-protection schemes hurt the legit customer, but prove to be trivial to somebody with the right tools.

*Sigh* Sadly, I have to admit, systems like Steam are looking better and better. I'd still rather have the boxes and printed manuals though. Nice that they allow "certain" games to be bought from a brick and mortar store and you can add the cd-keys to Steam. They just need a system so you can somehow add the "old" games that they now have in their online store. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying a game a second time, even if it is to get the  convenience of digital downloading. I see it the same as buying a game the second/third/fourth time because the original disk got a tiny scratch and now the copy-protection crap always fails.


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## Monak (Jun 10, 2008)

*Stops making out with my KeyGen*  If it wasn't for pirates I bet a lot of good art would go unseen on FA , I bet there is good deal of FA members using some kind of pirated art software.


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## Aurali (Jun 10, 2008)

See my other posts for my opinions.


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## WolfoxOkamichan (Jun 12, 2008)

Yeah, cracks and all.


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## ADF (Jun 12, 2008)

You want to blame someone blame the pirates that justified its use in the first place.

You cannot blame the developers for wanting to protect their own damn work; if it was you selling a software based product and then all the sudden people started downloading it illegally what would you do? You would try to stop them any way you could; even if everyone declared it futile because they would simply break through any protection you used, you would want to try *something* other than sit back and let it happen.

You donâ€™t want to piss off your customers, theyâ€™re the ones giving you money after all, but no better alternatives have presented themselves.


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## Kimmerset (Jun 12, 2008)

No one's really "blaming" the programmers that make these programs.  Yes, they're putting extreme measures into place to try and prevent hackers and the like from cracking their programs, but it's really doing more harm to the customers than good.  

Anyone who can crack a program knows their computers and programs inside and out.  The users that buy legitmately (whether out of morals or lack of knowledge) probably hardly know their way around the cupholder on their computer.  "Hello, Tech Support?"

Oh well. All of this is good and legal in Canada.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jun 12, 2008)

ADF said:


> Yif it was you selling a software based product and then all the sudden people started downloading it illegally what would you do?



The same thing Stardock does.

Or I would try to figure out _why_ people are downloading my software instead of buying it. Then I'd take measures to ensure as many potential costumers do indeed pay for it, while ignoring those who would not do so anyway.


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## ADF (Jun 12, 2008)

Hakar Kerarmor said:


> The same thing Stardock does.



Stardock boasts allot but their method of anti piracy cannot be applied to most games, it relies on appealing to a wide audience who enjoy the genre that are not too fussed about the game using the latest technology or offering a new feature. Stardock's method cannot protect a Crysis or Mass Effect or any other high profile title from being pirated.



Hakar Kerarmor said:


> Or I would try to figure out _why_ people are downloading my software instead of buying it. Then I'd take measures to ensure as many potential costumers do indeed pay for it, while ignoring those who would not do so anyway.



People pirate because they want to be able to use and enjoy something for free, try accommodating that. If it were that easy to stop people downloading software it would have been resolved decades ago. The only way to stop it is to just give away your games for free, which is hardly a sound business decision. You will get the likes of Second Life and Battlefield Hero's that are free with microtransactions, supporting the cost of most players by the purchases of the enthusiasts, but again that can only be applied in certain types of games.


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## Aurali (Jun 12, 2008)

How to accomidate free users? 

... ... ... ADVERTISING! No.. seriously o.o;

Product placement :3


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## ADF (Jun 12, 2008)

Eli said:


> How to accomidate free users?
> 
> ... ... ... ADVERTISING! No.. seriously o.o;
> 
> Product placement :3


You are looking at a slippery slope there; currently in game advertising is mostly used to cover the costs of playing MMOs or multiplayer servers for free, in this case it can be used to pay for people getting the game for free, but how long before they start using them to increase profits rather than cover losses?

They provide it as a solution at first, then they start exploiting it to their own gain. I'm the type of person who would rather pay than put up with intrusive and immersion breaking ads, I'm not paying a monthly subscription to remove ads in an offline game. HellGate London has already crossed this line, even if you pay the full retail price and only play the game offline it still has in game ads. If I recall correctly MGS4 also has product placement despite being an offline single player game, for instance you start the game with a fully 3D rendered Apple IPod that plays game music.


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## Aurali (Jun 12, 2008)

ADF. I work in the industry. Making Gain is a good thing for me.


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## ADF (Jun 12, 2008)

Eli said:


> ADF. I work in the industry. Making Gain is a good thing for me.


And as a consumer I'm telling you if there is intrusive ad placement where it shouldn't exist I won't buy it, just like I haven't bought HellGate London.


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## Aurali (Jun 12, 2008)

Oh. it's not intrusive... maybe a splash on a loading screen.. or in game poster advertisements... both for realism and profit! Nothing to take away from the experience of gameplay...


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jun 12, 2008)

ADF said:


> Stardock boasts allot but their method of anti piracy cannot be applied to most games, it relies on appealing to a wide audience who enjoy the genre that are not too fussed about the game using the latest technology or offering a new feature. Stardock's method cannot protect a Crysis or Mass Effect or any other high profile title from being pirated.



Stardock does not attempt to prevent pirating, that was my point.



ADF said:


> People pirate because they want to be able to use and enjoy something for free, try accommodating that.



These people are a lost cause anyway, and should be ignored.
Trying to accomodate for them merely costs money and hurts potential customers.
The only people a publisher should care about are paying customers, potential customers, and people who _would_ be customers but download instead for whatever reason (that isn't the over-used "people are cheap bastards, thats why they didn't pay for our crappy game" line).


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## Hexadecimal (Jun 18, 2008)

Theres a simple solution to this : Buy the pirated version without it.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and I don't even know if they have something like that, so don't start flaming me about how I'm wrong please


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## Aurali (Jun 18, 2008)

Hexadecimal said:


> Theres a simple solution to this : Buy the pirated version without it.
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist, and I don't even know if they have something like that, so don't start flaming me about how I'm wrong please



That's the original form of pirating.


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## Tomtenizze (Jul 3, 2008)

ADF said:


> People pirate because they want to be able to use and enjoy something for free, try accommodating that. If it were that easy to stop people downloading software it would have been resolved decades ago. The only way to stop it is to just give away your games for free, which is hardly a sound business decision. You will get the likes of Second Life and Battlefield Hero's that are free with microtransactions, supporting the cost of most players by the purchases of the enthusiasts, but again that can only be applied in certain types of games.



Not all people pirate because they don't want to pay, though some/a lot do. But some people pirate because a) they want to try before buy, b) Most pirated 'stuff' are easier to find and, if it's a game or an application, to install due to the fact the cd-keys can be copy-pasted, keygens autofill the cd-key fields and you're almost never bugged about inserting the cd/dvd and c) they don't think what ever they pirated is worth full retail price and waits till the price drops.



ADF said:


> The only way to stop it is to just give away your games for free, which is hardly a sound business decision.


No, piracy will _never_ stop. The best thing is to try to minimize it's use. And one good way to do that is stop treating the customers like liars and thiefs. Throw away all these annoying, non-working, DRM so customers can play there legally bought songs in whatever device they like, whenever they want and however they feel like. Stop adding all the ads/trailers and non-skippable anti-pricay notes in the beginning of the movie. Stop requiring the cd/dvd when a user wants to play his/her newly bought computer game.

So what if a pirated copy is free? That doesn't automatically make you 'lose' because your want money for your product. Just make sure a legit copy is worth the money.
And not to forget that some sales are increasing despite increase in piracy.
"PC online game revenue alone passed $7 billion in 2007, not including retail sales", I don't know what you think, but I certaintly think that $7 billion is quite a lot of money and that just from using downloading services such as steam.
"DFC Intelligence Forecasts Video Game Market to Reach $57 Billion in 2009"
Okay, so it's just a "guess", but it would still be a lot of money even if the forecast was of by a billion or two. Source: http://www.dfcint.com/wp/?p=222

And a canadian study did not find any relation between the p2p file-sharing and the decline of CD sales. 
"That is, we find no direct evidence to suggest that the net effect of P2P file-sharing on CD purchasing is either positive or negative for Canada as a whole" - http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/en/h_ip01456e.html
And a swedish study also come to same conclusion, "Inga tydliga bevis fÃ¶r att fildelningen haft en signifikant pÃ¥verkan hittas" (There were no strong evidence that filesharing had any significant impact) - http://publications.uu.se/abstract.xsql?dbid=7642. The quote is from the 'abstract' and I translated it myself, feel free to check with google translate.

Look at the bottled water industry, they are competing with something that's free, but they are selling more and more.



Heck, bottled water is even more to likely to have malicious bacteria then regular tap water!
( http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/bw/table1.html )

I download (and upload) games/movies/music daily but I also buy some. Of all the media I've bought, only 1 dvd is not a movie I've previously downloaded and I bought that for around 5$. All games/music I've paid for is something I've downloaded before and liked.

Some bits of my post is a bit offtopic, but my point is; Throwing away stupid annoying copy protection is good for business. The number of downloads has nothing to do with how good a copy protection is. Almost all games are available for download even before the official release date or at the release date. That's how good the copy protection works.


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

I'll say it here and now, SecuRom is a piece of shit that doesn't work and causes more trouble then its worth.  To bad it'll be included on Spore and Apartment Life.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 3, 2008)

...*points to his siggy*
Thats all you need to know about me

and SecuRom aint stopping us, just make it fun to do it =3


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

Desume Crysis Kaiser said:


> ...*points to his siggy*
> Thats all you need to know about me
> 
> and SecuRom ain't stopping us, just make it fun to do it =3



SecuRom ain't stopping anyone, period, that piece of trash doesn't work, but you can't get it threw EA's thick fucking skull and they include it anyways on their products.  EA, run by a bunch of idiots.

And to think, EA wants to buy T2 and destroy the GTA franchise.


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## ADF (Jul 3, 2008)

Ashkihyena said:


> SecuRom ain't stopping anyone, period, that piece of trash doesn't work, but you can't get it threw EA's thick fucking skull and they include it anyways on their products.  EA, run by a bunch of idiots.
> 
> And to think, EA wants to buy T2 and destroy the GTA franchise.


If you have a better solution that doesn't involve releasing a game security free and yelling "here she is, come and steal her!" by all means; get in contact with EA and divulge your wisdom.


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

ADF said:


> If you have a better solution that doesn't involve releasing a game security free and yelling "here she is, come and steal her!" by all means; get in contact with EA and divulge your wisdom.



I already have an idea, get a better security deal if you're going to have to have something on your deal, instead, they go with SecuPeiceofshit, which they include on everything, including patches for some reason.

EA is just stupid like that, its a shame that they have to take Maxis and Bioware down the stupid road with them.

Hell, you want to know how long it took someone to crack Mass Effect with the latest version of SecuRom?  One fucking day, yeah, real secure there EA.


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## Zenx (Jul 3, 2008)

Ah yes, bullcrap copy protection. It's a good thing I'm not really into PC games nowadays. I've spared myself the sanity from this nuisance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-uulRB1OmY

Perfect example of this happening and the anger it generates. Oh yeah, and Starforce is just as bad.


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

Zenx said:


> Ah yes, bullcrap copy protection. It's a good thing I'm not really into PC games nowadays. I've spared myself the sanity from this nuisance.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-uulRB1OmY
> 
> Perfect example of this happening and the anger it generates. Oh yeah, and Starforce is just as bad.



Well, I am into PC gaming, mainly TS2 and the upcoming Spore, to bad they're going to include SecuRom with Apartment Life and Spore.

I hope Terminal Reality is smart with the PC version of Ghostbusters and don't include anything, but I might be asking to much of them.


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## Tomtenizze (Jul 3, 2008)

ADF said:


> If you have a better solution that doesn't involve releasing a game security free and yelling "here she is, come and steal her!" by all means; get in contact with EA and divulge your wisdom.



Why not? It's a perfectly good thing to do. But then again, why would anyone buy a game that has no copy protection, I almost feel bad when good games such as, say, The elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion didn't sell well just because there was no copy-protection just a badly written dvd check. Wait, it did sell good!? It Actually achieved record sales!?
1.7 million units in the first couple of weeks, guess people do buy good games, with or without copy protection.
http://dodge.games.yahoo.com/news-1144896
http://www.gadzooki.com/news/elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-sets-sales-record/
http://consoles.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/9453/Oblivion_Sales_Records.html


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

Tomtenizze said:


> Why not? It's a perfectly good thing to do. But then again, why would anyone buy a game that has no copy protection, I almost feel bad when good games such as, say, The elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion didn't sell well just because there was no copy-protection just a badly written dvd check. Wait, it did sell good!? It Actually achieved record sales!?
> 1.7 million units in the first couple of weeks, guess people do buy good games, with or without copy protection.
> http://dodge.games.yahoo.com/news-1144896
> http://www.gadzooki.com/news/elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-sets-sales-record/
> http://consoles.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/9453/Oblivion_Sales_Records.html



Good games will sell, shitty security system or not, preferably, not, but try telling EA that, oh wait, they won't listen, typical of them or people who want the money and want to screw over the customers.

I just don't understand the developers/publishers logic.  I mean, I'm not bashing them, but I'm sure they can see that SecuRom is hurting the customers, and yet, they put it on anyways.


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## Aurali (Jul 3, 2008)

Case Study: Brazil. Taxes on games were so high that Playstation was never released there. Smuggled versions of the PS were brought in, and anyone who owned a game for it was pirated. Brazil's Video Game sales are about 52 million. A piss poor amount for the 8th largest economy. Any brazilian company that tries to make games has four options

subscription-based online games, mobile gaming, advergaming or exporting.

I doubt the US will ever get this bad. However. Countries like canadia are steadily heading that way.


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, I dunno, but honestly, SecuRom is a disaster, the latest patch for TS2, the FreeTime patch from what I hear has caused nothing but trouble, and honestly, its kinda preventing me from even thinking bout downloading anymore patches from EA.

I'd rather take the bugs on the game then the SecuRom that comes with the patches, even though SecuRom comes with the game, oi.


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## Rhainor (Jul 3, 2008)

Eevee said:


> I wonder if pirates will ever take responsibility for this  8)




I seem to remember reading an article somewhere that said something like 80% (maybe more, I don't remember) of the people who download pirated copies of any given piece of software are people who wouldn't have bought it legitimately in the first place.


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## darkdoomer (Jul 3, 2008)

paying for software or media : you pay for the software or product, and; following the license terms (most for sotware) you accept it with all possible bugs and defects.
you pay for something that anyways could be found as freeware/gpl somewhere else ( and legal.)
DRM, antipircy countermeasures and all these shit are seriously nonsense. unless the user is a  12yo kid wih assburgers syndrome, anyone know a way to counter these restrictions.
indeed, the worse remains Sony, deliberately stuffing spyware and trojans on their cd's ,Microsoft and their DRM spectrum (music; video; software... ) plus, overall, the music you downlioad illegally is less compressed and closer to the CD quality  than anything you could get on itunes for the price of the actual CD. 
only answer : support piracy. i do; and will always.


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## Aurali (Jul 3, 2008)

darkdoomer said:


> only answer : support piracy. i do; and will always.


In this example all companies go out of business.. Software ends.


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## Ceceil Felias (Jul 3, 2008)

I watched Ignus Solus one day. It was nice and I liked the song. I bought the song and got a nice high-quality MP3, no strings attached. I've recommended buying the song to a few of my friends, but have not once felt like sharing the file.

Isn't the honor system great?


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## WarMocK (Jul 3, 2008)

Ceceil Felias said:


> I watched Ignus Solus one day. It was nice and I liked the song. I bought the song and got a nice high-quality MP3, no strings attached. I've recommended buying the song to a few of my friends, but have not once felt like sharing the file.
> 
> Isn't the honor system great?



If somebody does something for you, always return the favor. ^^


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## Runefox (Jul 3, 2008)

The whole point of copy protection is, well, to protect against copying. So why, then, is it possible to find, download, and play newly-released (usually within a week) games with these copy protection mechanisms?

It's quite simple. They don't work. At all. Ever. It's just a bit of code, and that can always be bypassed, even when we're talking about encryption.

Point is, it's just as well to not have it at all given the cost associated with it and its ineffective nature. It's been shown in the past to cause problems for legitimate users, interfere with certain other software, and generally be a nuisance. The sooner the game industry realizes this, the better.

Now if only it were possible to get it out of software vendors' heads that a piece of software can't be both a privately-owned product and a license at the same time. The argument goes that the disc is simply the medium by which the software is delivered. OK, so by that logic, a scratched disc does not equal a revoked license. However, as far as I know in this case, if for example a console game's disc were to become damaged, there is no way to create a backup of the disc beforehand to continue to use the licensed software, and there is no cheap way of getting a new copy of the game (that I know of).

The reason this irks me is that in Canada, we pay levies on CD/DVD media that supposedly gives us the right to create a backup copy of our discs to avoid that. Due to US law, it's perfectly acceptable to prevent this from being possible - And most releases (and DRM-infected hardware) are the same here in Canada as they are in the US (with the exception of maybe offering a French option/manual), meaning of course that the right to keep a backup is not being observed. Mind you, I could easily blame the Canadian government for that, since they won't enforce it, but the reason behind it is easy enough to understand, since US media is popular here (Canadian media (as in, made in Canada), by and large, sucks). I really think that the US government should take a similar stance on the issue as we do, but that will never happen.


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## ADF (Jul 3, 2008)

Ashkihyena said:


> I already have an idea, get a better security deal


In other words you don't know a better form of protection.

No one does, that's the problem. I cannot approve of draconian protection but I cannot condemn it either, when pricks on the Internet are stealing your multi million investment you want to do something about it.

If there are no effective solutions, you use what is available to you.



Rhainor said:


> I seem to remember reading an article somewhere that said something like 80% (maybe more, I don't remember) of the people who download pirated copies of any given piece of software are people who wouldn't have bought it legitimately in the first place.


I honestly don't believe that, I would wonder where they got those figures.

If you like the sound of a game enough and the only way to get it is to buy it, then you will eventually be tempted into buying it.


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## Runefox (Jul 3, 2008)

For many people I know, myself included, it's a matter of "if I like the game, I'll buy it, period". There's something about having a box and CD in hand that's nice about buying games that I enjoy to a high degree, much moreso than a progress bar on my Bittorrent client (though seeing it say 1MB/sec is quite awesome). I can honestly say that any game I've downloaded instead of bought weren't worth the effort (like Battlefield 1942 long, long after its release and since removed) or are no longer available (such as X-COM: UFO Defense, F-22 Total Air War, etc), and I can also honestly say that those mentioned are the only 3 PC games I currently have that have been downloaded in a legal gray area aside from some old DOS games that are also not available anymore for obvious reasons. In contrast to my lust for boxes, though, in the past few weeks, I've purchased quite a bit off of Steam, because I'm also lazy and don't want to go to the store. Steam's OK, but the fact that it has to be there to launch the game irks me a little.

But there are plenty of games out there, too, that don't have any demos available to try, instead asking that the customer purchase it outright without knowing for sure whether the game will be any good (Hi, Kane & Lynch and Halo 3 for the 360!). In cases like this (though the 360 doesn't allow for this), it's often just easier to download the full game, play through the first bit of it, and then go out and grab the full version.

"But why would you buy the full version if you already have the game pirated?!"

Because:

1) Jewel cases and DVD cases are hot. So are instruction manuals and boxes. Seriously. Call me a packaging fetishist, but I love me some good packaging. The X-Box 360 was a dream to unpack.
2) Having the actual media means that you can reinstall it in the event of hardware failure.
3) No having to put up with bugs/glitches that can't be updated with a cracked copy.
4) Online support that is usually disabled or inaccessible with a cracked copy (unacceptable).
5) Content updates, expansions, etc (unacceptable).

I pine for the days when I could install a game like Fighters Anthology, Mechwarrior 3, or World War II Fighters with my CD, and either use a CD image or no-CD crack to run the game without having to rifle through my CD holder to find the right disc, pop the old one out, fight with the autorun, and finally execute the game, which is now delayed due to waiting for the disc to spin up and read a track or two that says it's legit. That's pretty much all the original media does nowadays anyway, since the game files are all dumped to the hard drive on installation thanks to massive capacities becoming common.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 3, 2008)

I gave up on buying DVDs this very week for the reason that copy protection only hurts honest customers. For years I defended the idea of spending money on media to promote the industry and encourage further projects, until I decided to buy "Bender's Big Score" and run it on my laptop.

EPIC FAILURE. The copy protection on the disc brutally refused to let me play it, automatically assuming I'm a pirate based on the 'evidence' that I own a DVD-RW drive.

I got my money back, and swore to myself that from now I'd download all my movies, _like nature intended!_


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

> 1) Jewel cases and DVD cases are hot. So are instruction manuals and boxes. Seriously. Call me a packaging fetishist, but I love me some good packaging. The X-Box 360 was a dream to unpack.



Thats kinda weird, but honestly, its nice to have manuels to read before you play.  Call me crazy, but I like to have the damn instructions.



> In other words you don't know a better form of protection.
> 
> No one does, that's the problem. I cannot approve of draconian protection but I cannot condemn it either, when pricks on the Internet are stealing your multi million investment you want to do something about it.
> 
> If there are no effective solutions, you use what is available to you.



Theres got to be something better then SecuRom, theres got to, and honestly, if people want the game, they're going to get it, but us paying customers shouldn't have to put up with the bullshit that is SecuRom.  They should just do like Stardock and get rid of copyright protection BS altogether IMO.

And seriously, yeah, they want to protect their software, but they're really a bad job with it, the worst.


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## Aurali (Jul 3, 2008)

There is something better. Go into the human mind of each individual on the planet and let kill the cells that cause the urge to steal. >3


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 3, 2008)

Ashkihyena said:


> Theres got to be something better then SecuRom, theres got to, and honestly, if people want the game, they're going to get it, but us paying customers shouldn't have to put up with the bullshit that is SecuRom.  They should just do like Stardock and get rid of copyright protection BS altogether IMO.



These horrible layers of encryptions are being used as a matter of fact these days because it's assumed to be necessary, though few people have yet tried to forego them and see how it goes (as Stardock did).

If you'll remember the shelves of computer stores ten years ago, all games came in those insanely large boxes that had only a single CD, a thin manual and a pound or two of cardboard filler. Why were games packaged this way? Because it was "common knowledge" that packing them in anything smaller and more sensible would prevent buyers from _seeing them_ on the shelves, and they would sell less.

In retrospect, it seems crazy to think that anyone would have ever held this sort of logic, but until we get more people questioning conventional logic, no progress will ever be made. Right now, common sense tells manufacturers that they need heavy layers of encryption to stop piracy, but then again common sense is not that common...


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 3, 2008)

Drakkenmensch said:


> These horrible layers of encryptions are being used as a matter of fact these days because it's assumed to be necessary, though few people have yet tried to forego them and see how it goes (as Stardock did).
> 
> If you'll remember the shelves of computer stores ten years ago, all games came in those insanely large boxes that had only a single CD, a thin manual and a pound or two of cardboard filler. Why were games packaged this way? Because it was "common knowledge" that packing them in anything smaller and more sensible would prevent buyers from _seeing them_ on the shelves, and they would sell less.
> 
> In retrospect, it seems crazy to think that anyone would have ever held this sort of logic, but until we get more people questioning conventional logic, no progress will ever be made. Right now, common sense tells manufacturers that they need heavy layers of encryption to stop piracy, but then again common sense is not that common...



Yeah, common sense with PC Games doesn't seem to be that common, its a good thing that SecuRom isn't installed on console games....shit, I just gave someone an idea, didn't I?


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## Runefox (Jul 3, 2008)

For the record, I didn't mean hot as in sexually attractive; I meant it as in sports car hot. =D

EDIT: 



> If you'll remember the shelves of computer stores ten years ago


Ah... Those were the days. Truly epic boxes. I was sorely disappointed to see the double-width DVD boxes they use nowadays come into popular usage. I mean, just imagine Falcon 4.0 or something that requires a huge manual fitting into one of those. And don't start with electronic documentation, if you've got a 500+ page book (I am NOT kidding) to read and you're trying to reference it in-game, you're not going to alt-tab and load up Adobe Acrobat. Not to mention all the supplemental books (most of which are over 100 pages long and weigh in at around 5~14MB to download)...

Of course, nobody's bothered to make a reasonable attempt at a realistic combat flight simulator in the past decade. It's all about accessibility nowadays.


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## Rhainor (Jul 3, 2008)

Runefox said:


> I pine for the days when I could install a game like Fighters Anthology, Mechwarrior 3, or World War II Fighters with my CD, and either use a CD image or no-CD crack to run the game without having to rifle through my CD holder to find the right disc, pop the old one out, fight with the autorun, and finally execute the game, which is now delayed due to waiting for the disc to spin up and read a track or two that says it's legit. That's pretty much all the original media does nowadays anyway, since the game files are all dumped to the hard drive on installation thanks to massive capacities becoming common.



No-CD cracks are still extremely popular, and exceedingly common.  Almost any game one downloads a pirated copy of (should one choose to do so) will include either a keygen, a crack, or both (for obvious reasons).  All those cracks and keygens are also available by themselves, if you can find 'em


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 3, 2008)

Rhainor said:


> No-CD cracks are still extremely popular, and exceedingly common.  Almost any game one downloads a pirated copy of (should one choose to do so) will include either a keygen, a crack, or both (for obvious reasons).  All those cracks and keygens are also available by themselves, if you can find 'em



Personally, I had too much trouble with no-cd cracks running afoul of game patches and causing all sorts of havok to rely on them anymore. The no-cd crack for Painkiller would invariably cause the game to crash to desktop on the third mission (*groan*)

A better solution, since you've already resorted to using a game ISO, is to mount it in daemon tools before starting the game. That actually satisfies the game's requirement for the disc to be in the drive.


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## Runefox (Jul 3, 2008)

> No-CD cracks are still extremely popular, and exceedingly common. Almost any game one downloads a pirated copy of (should one choose to do so) will include either a keygen, a crack, or both (for obvious reasons). All those cracks and keygens are also available by themselves, if you can find 'em


This is true, however, they will break updates, and they will break online play in most cases (the EXE was modified, anti-cheat/etc will pick up on it). My major complaint would be that the whole game is installed onto the hard drive, yet the disc needs to be in the drive to play simply to check and make sure that the game you installed with a legitimate key is using a real disc. What if MS Office did that? Again, it boils down to whether they see it as a product or a license. It can't be both, but they sure like to make it seem that way and get away with it.



> A better solution, since you've already resorted to using a game ISO, is to mount it in daemon tools before starting the game. That actually satisfies the game's requirement for the disc to be in the drive.


Only in cases where copy protection is not active. Crysis is especially bad for that, for example.

EDIT:

Microsoft is actually, ironically, a company that doesn't care about the CD - Use a burned backup all you want for Windows and Office. It's the key they're worried about, and rightly so. Bravo, Microsoft. ... I feel dirty.


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## Rhainor (Jul 3, 2008)

Drakkenmensch said:


> Personally, I had too much trouble with no-cd cracks running afoul of game patches and causing all sorts of havok to rely on them anymore. The no-cd crack for Painkiller would invariably cause the game to crash to desktop on the third mission (*groan*)



Generally, the person or group who made the original crack will release an updated crack if/when the game in question is patched.  You just gotta look for it.



			
				Drakkenmensch said:
			
		

> A better solution, since you've already resorted to using a game ISO, is to mount it in daemon tools before starting the game. That actually satisfies the game's requirement for the disc to be in the drive.



That doesn't work for all games.  Some can tell the difference between a virtual disc drive and a physical one, some can tell that there's drive-emulation software running and won't start until you close DaemonTools (or whatever).  The crack for my PC copy of Need for Speed Underground 2, for example, doesn't remove the need for a disc altogether, but rather just allows the mounted disc image to satisfy its requirements.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 3, 2008)

Rhainor said:


> That doesn't work for all games.  Some can tell the difference between a virtual disc drive and a physical one, some can tell that there's drive-emulation software running and won't start until you close DaemonTools (or whatever).



Now that you mention it, I do remember Doom3 refusing to run on my computer until I had uninstalled a specific drive-emulation software (can't remember which one it was).


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 4, 2008)

Well, honestly, let me just say this, the world would be much better without SecuRom or anything of its ilk.


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## ADF (Jul 4, 2008)

If people want to direct their hate and anger at someone, direct it at the people who justified these measure in the first place. The people who created a market for anti piracy measures, the people who think they deserve  everything for free, the people who come up with excuse after excuse for never supporting the companies that provide their entertainment.

They did this and they are not the least bit sorry for it, companies just trying to protect their property from these bastards don't deserve all the blame.


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 4, 2008)

ADF said:


> If people want to direct their hate and anger at someone, direct it at the people who justified these measure in the first place. The people who created a market for anti piracy measures, the people who think they deserve  everything for free, the people who come up with excuse after excuse for never supporting the companies that provide their entertainment.
> 
> They did this and they are not the least bit sorry for it, companies just trying to protect their property from these bastards don't deserve all the blame.



Well, they're doing a shitty job of protecting their interest, and its only hurting the customers when they use something as defective as SecuRom, its a bad program, and it was a bad decision to even think about putting it on anything.


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## WarMocK (Jul 4, 2008)

ADF said:


> If people want to direct their hate and anger at someone, direct it at the people who justified these measure in the first place. The people who created a market for anti piracy measures, the people who think they deserve  everything for free, the people who come up with excuse after excuse for never supporting the companies that provide their entertainment.
> 
> They did this and they are not the least bit sorry for it, companies just trying to protect their property from these bastards don't deserve all the blame.


I think there are many different bad guys to blame:

Those who always want everything for free, no matter if they like it or not.

Those who overslept the changes that came with the internet and now try to keep the old status quo by corrupting pcs with rootkit-like copy protection systems instead of trying new ways of contributing content (like NIN and Radiohead).

Those who found a new income by charging people who _MIGHT_ have downloaded something they shouldn't have (anyone remember the laser printers that were charged for pirating music? xD) and now do a lot of lobbying to criminalize every human being on the planet (with a little help of some stupid polititians and a few black money cases).

etc. pp.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 4, 2008)

ADF said:


> If people want to direct their hate and anger at someone, direct it at the people who justified these measure in the first place. The people who created a market for anti piracy measures, the people who think they deserve  everything for free, the people who come up with excuse after excuse for never supporting the companies that provide their entertainment.
> 
> They did this and they are not the least bit sorry for it, companies just trying to protect their property from these bastards don't deserve all the blame.



Granted, the pirates are the ones who deserve all the blame, but it's the customers who get the punishment.

Sort of like the movie theaters hiring roving bands of lead-pipe wielding goons to beat up random ticket holders during projections by assuming that they're probably hiding camcorders in their jackets. Sure, you _may_ beat up a real culprit once in a while by pure chance, but you'll send so many honest client to the hospital that the fleeing clientele will eventually force you to go out of business.


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## Runefox (Jul 4, 2008)

It's incredible that most people consider the damaging pirates to be the people who get it "for free", too. It's really, really not so.

The biggest part of piracy, and the biggest reason things are available for free online so quickly, is because there are people who make their living reverse-engineering software and anti-copy schemes so that they can sell the products as their own. Asia's market as a whole is completely flooded.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jul 5, 2008)

Tomtenizze said:


> But then again, why would anyone buy a game that has no copy protection?



Because it is worth the money, and it doesn't treat me like a criminal every time I want to play it.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 5, 2008)

Tomtenizze said:


> Why not? It's a perfectly good thing to do. But then again, why would anyone buy a game that has no copy protection, I almost feel bad when good games such as, say, The elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion didn't sell well just because there was no copy-protection just a badly written dvd check. Wait, it did sell good!? It Actually achieved record sales!?
> 1.7 million units in the first couple of weeks, guess people do buy good games, with or without copy protection.



Precisely, this is proof that games without copy protection can sell, and that the whole of the computer gaming community isn't just waiting like vampires in the dark for a helpless country farmboy to fall off the turnip truck to go in a feeding frenzy.

Assuming that releasing a game with no copy protection simply condemns it to selling no copies as everyone will just download it for free is once again assuming that every single PC gamer is a criminal. This is what really burns the honest customers.


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## Dragon-Commando (Jul 6, 2008)

It's a simple fact that if piracy didn't exist, games would be at least a third of what they cost now and would not have retarded copy protection features.

Think about it, piracy has been happening since before DOOM came out, my first copy of DOOM was pirated. (I didn't find out untill after)

If people didn't pirate software, movies, and music. It could be sold for cheaper because the companies woulden't have to recover profits lost because of piracy.

Piracy created a drive for more piracy.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jul 6, 2008)

If two-thirds of the cost of making a game went into repaying the damage caused by piracy, people would have stopped making them ages ago.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 6, 2008)

Dragon-Commando said:


> It's a simple fact that if piracy didn't exist, games would be at least a third of what they cost now and would not have retarded copy protection features.
> 
> Think about it, piracy has been happening since before DOOM came out, my first copy of DOOM was pirated. (I didn't find out untill after)
> 
> ...



That's assuming that if pirates couldn't get it for free, they'd pay for it. In my experience, people who want it for free stop using it the moment they can't get it for free... so I doubt that it makes any difference in the price in the end.

As I recall, Atari 2600 cartridges had no way to be pirated back in the days, and Centipede still cost 60$ when it came out...


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## ADF (Jul 6, 2008)

Drakkenmensch said:


> That's assuming that if pirates couldn't get it for free, they'd pay for it. In my experience, people who want it for free stop using it the moment they can't get it for free... so I doubt that it makes any difference in the price in the end.


As I said earlier I think otherwise, if you are willing to build/buy a computer for gaming you are not going to quit your hobby on a whim because the games suddenly cost something.

If they are willing to take the time to download and play through these games  they are getting something out of it. When an interesting game comes around; and buying is the only way to get it, they will eventually be tempted into buying like every other product they don't steal.

I find the "they wouldn't buy it anyway" argument is simply one of the many excuses to justify piracy, if they like it and buying is the only way to get it *they will buy it*.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 6, 2008)

ADF said:


> I find the "they wouldn't buy it anyway" argument is simply one of the many excuses to justify piracy, if they like it and buying is the only way to get it *they will buy it*.



I really wouldn't mind the copy protection if it wasn't protecting the contents from, you know, _buying customers._


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Jul 6, 2008)

ADF said:


> I find the "they wouldn't buy it anyway" argument is simply one of the many excuses to justify piracy, if they like it and buying is the only way to get it *they will buy it*.



I find that claiming anything the 'not-anti-pirates*' say is "_an excuse to justify piracy_" is just wishful thinking.
Why are anti-pirates the only ones who use the term 'justify' anyway? We're trying to figure out why people download games and how publishers can best deal with it, not 'justifying' anything.
No-one, or at least not me, is saying there is some great undefeatable argument in favour of software piracy which allows anyone to download a game without repercussions. All I'm saying is that, like it or not, people download games for several different reasons with varying levels of validity, and dismissing all of these as merely trying to 'justify' piracy or claiming "they're all just a bunch of cheap bastards" adds nothing sensible to the discussion.


*: Really can't think of a better term, sorry.


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## Ashkihyena (Jul 6, 2008)

Drakkenmensch said:


> I really wouldn't mind the copy protection if it wasn't protecting the contents from, you know, _buying customers._



QFT, yeah, the copyright protection is doing its job, but its doing its job on the *wrong people!*

The pirates know how to crack that shit, and well, it appears nothing will stop them.  I just wish that all the game companies would be smart and take Stardock's approach of not having that, which reminds me, I need to pick up the new Political Machine 2008 to support Stardock for being awesome like that.


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## ADF (Jul 6, 2008)

Who says I'm dismissing all the reasons? I just find the vast majority of them to be petty excuses.


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## makmakmob (Jul 10, 2008)

download UT2004 (for free)
download deamon tools (for free)
when mounting ISO images, place a tick in the secuROM box.
Problem solved! It's that fething easy. It's probably easier than doing it legit. I know it is with music. I find it kinda hard to see how you can expect to charge under those circumstances, regardless of moral or ethical issues.


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## SFox (Jul 10, 2008)

CD security systems hurt legit buyers and don't do jack to pirates. It's always been like that since the basic cd keys.

If a legit buyer loses their cd key, they have to shell out money for a new copy of the game, but all a pirate has to do is run a keygen program and boom, instant cd key (which can end up being the same key as a legit unopened copy and end up causing the buyer to lose their game privilege).


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## makmakmob (Jul 10, 2008)

Honestly, if I can get a game for free, that means of course, not key problems (I download them) and no money wasted if the game is incompatible, why on earth should I buy it for Â£40?


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## Sheikra (Jul 14, 2008)

Mhh, i have alot of Original Games. But I hate so search and insert the f*** CDs every time, or let the Game say to me i have to deinstall Demon Tools. So i crack my buyed Games to play them in peace xD - The 'SecuRom' etc is easy to get rid off~

Sry, its late and iam German ^^'


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

Actually, SecuROM and StarForce install system drivers that stay installed on the system even if you uninstall the game. Which is why I consider it spyware.


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## Ash-Fox (Jul 15, 2008)

supercutefurri58 said:


> well fuck! i stop buying programs as soon as they start asking for online activation, so this is way past the "i will take my business elsewhere" point for me.
> 
> i feel validated in my actions.


So you don't use any modern Windows OS then?


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2008)

> So you don't use any modern Windows OS then?


You make that sound as though there's no alternative... I'm quite comfortable with Linux, for example.


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## WarMocK (Jul 15, 2008)

Runefox said:


> You make that sound as though there's no alternative... I'm quite comfortable with Linux, for example.



+1. ^^

Who believes that Windows is a modern OS anyways?
Except for those who are unable to change their Windows themes, of course. xD


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## Ash-Fox (Jul 15, 2008)

Runefox said:


> You make that sound as though there's no alternative... I'm quite comfortable with Linux, for example.


It's more of the fact that I doubted they had moved away from Windows.

I tend to use a lot of platforms, Kubuntu being on my main desktop system, so no, it wasn't my intention to sound that way.


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## Eevee (Jul 15, 2008)

Ash-Fox said:


> So you don't use any modern Windows OS then?


Surprise, that's one of the things that drove me away from Windows.


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