# Luicd Dreaming



## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

I've been practicing lucid dreaming since 2006 and so far I've only had only 11 lucid dreams. The reason with the lack of them is because I've just haven't been actively doing it, just on and off pretty much. I get good recall, usually remember around 1-4 dreams per night. I am a well-known member of *www.ld4all.com/forum* and it's a great community to get into if you're interested in this subject. 

For those of you who have no idea what* lucid dreaming is, it's a dream in which the person is aware that he or she is dreaming while the dream is in progress, also known as a conscious dream. *You can do absolutely anything that you wish. You can fly, dream of furries, be your fursona, breathe underwater, have sex with anyone, etc. Anything what you wish and the best part is, you don't get punished for doing what you do - there are no laws or consequences. There is nothing wrong with lucid dreaming, you dream every night even if you don't remember it you still had one or more dreams that night. It's just like this life you're in right now, kinda like a second life pretty much. Lucid dreaming has been researched scientifically, and its existence is well established.

*You can achieve this TONIGHT *if you wanted to. All it takes is dedication and patience (maybe some more that I'm forgetting). There are a lot of techniques out there you can try out. For example: wake-initiated lucid dream (WILD) occurs when the dreamer goes from a normal waking state directly into a dream state with no apparent lapse in consciousness. There are a lot more techniques other than WILD, you can go to the listed links underneath to find them along with their descriptions. My favorite technique is FILD that can be found here http://ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7446. 

You can find more information at www.lucidity.com, www.dreamviews.com, www.ld4all.com, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming
My username for www.ld4all.com/ is kTFox (there are other furries there too  )
My username for www.dreamviews.com is Enzo


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

Ah, lucid dreaming. I used to "wake up" during a dream after realizing that it was a dream, and I used to do it often. The problem is, I can't do it anymore. I've thought about training myself to be able to do it again, but it really was chance back in the day. I don't really get the chance to anymore.


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## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

Runefox said:


> I don't really get the chance to anymore.



Is it because of your daily schedule or sleep schedule?


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Oh yes, pie in the sky. I hadn't had a normal dream for months now...

Thanks for the links!


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## Fluffyfox (Jul 13, 2008)

*nods* I have lucid dreams fairly often. They're always after I just barely wake up from a dream and fall right back to sleep. I learned to do it when I was about seven. I trained myself to do it so I could stop a recurring nightmare....


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## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Oh yes, pie in the sky. I hadn't had a normal dream for months now...
> 
> Thanks for the links!



No problem, just tell me if you're going to one of the forums and I'll see u there


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

> Is it because of your daily schedule or sleep schedule?


A little from column A, a little from column B. I have a pretty weird daily schedule, and my sleep schedule is such that I don't know from day to day when I'll be going to sleep.  It's totally screwed up.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Snowden said:


> No problem, just tell me if you're going to one of the forums and I'll see u there


Don't count on it.

Now then, on with the thread.


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## capthavoc123 (Jul 13, 2008)

I have a lucid dream pretty much every night. There's really nothing to it.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

capthavoc123 said:


> I have a lucid dream pretty much every night. There's really nothing to it.


Of course. Being able to do absolutely everything you could possibly imagine as if for real must be really boring.


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## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

What I'm aiming to do in my next lucid dream is to meet up with my furry friend that I made up in my head (imaginary friend kinda ). I've seen him a couple times in some normal dreams. He turned out to be a really nice guy.


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## capthavoc123 (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Of course. Being able to do absolutely everything you could possibly imagine as if for real must be really boring.



I was speaking as to the level of difficulty in attaining a lucid dream, not the level of enjoyment.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 13, 2008)

It doesn't happen very often to me, bu twhen it does, it's usually because something in the dream makes so little sense that I figure out I'm in a dream. From there, I can do pretty much anything I want. I once stepped out of a dream and started going around between dreamscapes.

edit: Just read the lucid dream article you posted, Snowden. This is the very first one I've ever read that didn't suggest "write down your dreams every morning when you wake up" or "look at your hands during your dream" (that always fails because when do you ever look at your hands while you dream unless it's already a lucid dream?)

Thanks for the awesome advice!


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## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

capthavoc123 said:


> I was speaking as to the level of difficulty in attaining a lucid dream, not the level of enjoyment.



That makes more sense. It just sounded like something else :x


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Snowden said:


> What I'm aiming to do in my next lucid dream is to meet up with my furry friend that I made up in my head (imaginary friend kinda ). I've seen him a couple times in some normal dreams. He turned out to be a really nice guy.


Finally, relevance to the forum subject.



capthavoc123 said:


> I was speaking as to the level of difficulty in attaining a lucid dream, not the level of enjoyment.


I have a level of difficulty in understanding how this is linked to your previous post, but sure.

EDIT: I'm sleepy. Get it now.



Drakkenmensch said:


> It doesn't happen very often to me, bu twhen it does, it's usually because something in the dream makes so little sense that I figure out I'm in a dream. From there, I can do pretty much anything I want. I once stepped out of a dream and started going around between dreamscapes.


Oh yes, that's a good factor. I think there's a whole technique linked to that - falling asleep after actually sleeping so you know you're sleeping... Gawd.


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## Merriss (Jul 13, 2008)

[/removed]


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## OnyxVulpine (Jul 13, 2008)

I'd love to be able to do this.

When I do realize it is a dream which is hardly ever. I usually wake up shortly afterward. I can only recall one time that I noticed. Started doing some graphic things :O


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 13, 2008)

OnyxVulpine said:


> I'd love to be able to do this.
> 
> When I do realize it is a dream which is hardly ever. I usually wake up shortly afterward. I can only recall one time that I noticed. Started doing some graphic things :O



Achieving awareness from within a normal dream through chance is extremely unreliable, and incurs a chance of waking up. Snowden's suggested method looks like the best chance of getting reliable results on demand.


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## OnyxVulpine (Jul 13, 2008)

Which is why I said I'd love to be able to do those.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:
			
		

> I have a level of difficulty in understanding how this is linked to your previous post, but sure.



English isn't your first language, is it? "Nothing to it" is just an expression meaning "really easy," although CaptainPlanet123 has a tendency to make a lot of statements that are true for _him_ but not others without realizing it which is why that's probably about as much as he's going to contribute to this thread.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> Oh yes, that's a good factor. I think there's a whole technique linked to that - falling asleep after actually sleeping so you know you're sleeping... Gawd.



Not just that but what's called "dream signs." Basically when you're not lucid, you see/experience something you trained yourself to remember and/or know is impossible in the real world, letting you know you're dreaming. I've actually gotten pretty good at _recognizing_ dream signs, just not so much recognizing them _as_ dream signs. I've kicked myself some mornings where I missed some of the most obvious and common ones, like numbers on a digital clock flickering and erratically changing (or in my case a room _full of them_) and seeing two suns, two moons, stuff like that. I'll usually focus on them and have feelings of remembering them from _somewhere_ which _usually_ results in false memory instead of a lucid dream.

I'm wearing a nicotine patch at night lately, which helps with dream recall if nothing else. They say keeping a dream diary helps, which is one area where I need more discipline. Supposedly caffeine and certain B-vitamins before bed helps, assuming you can actually fall asleep well before the caffeine works its way out of your system since it takes a while to enter REM sleep in the first place.

Now, one thing I'm not so sure of is whether I've actually _had_ a lucid dream before, even though I've had dreams that seemed pretty damn real to me where I _thought_ I realized I was dreaming. My self-skepticism comes from the fact that I've never done what I always told myself I'd do in a lucid dream (which I'm not gonna tell the entire forum about.) Last night in particular I _thought_ I was lucid dreaming, so what did I do? Practiced my drawing because I haven't in a while. *But* I had certain difficulties with the drawing that I normally wouldn't have, the image kept having minor differences every time I would look away and look back, I used techniques I don't normally use, etc. Yet it _did_ seem lucid in the sense that often times when I wanted to change something minor about the drawing, like the length of a character's dreadlocks, I'd do that with my mind instead of my pencil. In another one from a long time ago, I was walking down a highway in the evening and realized I was dreaming because the sky was the wrong colors - a deep purple with a glowing yellow on the horizon, like a sunset, but too vivid to be the real sky. I was on a big Sonic/Dreamcast kick at the time so I decided to turn myself into Sonic, and succeeded. I was ecstatic, so I then celebrated by turning myself into Kurt Angle and doing his entrance down the highway, complete with his old "you _suck!_" theme music and pyro... Now why the hell would I do _that?!_ One final, more recent example which was the longest (perception-wise) dream I've ever recalled and the one I think to most likely be a true lucid dream. I think it might've been part of the one with the room full of digital clocks. Well, I decided to turn into a werewolf. I've had anthro dreams in the past, but in this one I went digitigrade which doesn't appeal to me. Now, this is sorta fucked up, but I kinda fucked up the transformation about half way through and degenerated into this fleshy digitigrade, monsterish *thing* that's sorta hard to describe. This one vexes me the most because one the one hand, it makes sense that if I were going to try to transform and I can't fully visualize how that process would work, my mind would be grasping at straws for what to turn me into, suggesting there _was_ some at least semi-conscious work going on there. On the other hand, why even _go through_ a transformation? Why not just wish to be an anthro wolf, and *be* an anthro wolf? Isn't that how it's _supposed_ to work? And besides, I don't _like_ digitigrade anthros so why turn into one of those?

Actually, this has me wondering if I should make a thread that doubles as a dream journal which is what I'd be doing on my user page right now if the site were online.


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## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> Actually, this has me wondering if I should make a thread that doubles as a dream journal which is what I'd be doing on my user page right now if the site were online.



So you can use FA as a dream journal too? I already keep a dream journal on ld4all and I'm interested on doing one on FA. I guess you can post it as a journal.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 13, 2008)

Snowden said:


> So you can use FA as a dream journal too? I already keep a dream journal on ld4all and I'm interested on doing one on FA. I guess you can post it as a journal.



Well why not? Every user's page on the main site has a journal section. I'd have started doing it weeks ago when I decided to get serious about lucid dreaming again, but that's around the time the main site went down. I need discipline enough to write one though, and for that I need motivation. Knowing others will read is usually motivation enough for me to write anything.


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## Azure (Jul 13, 2008)

capthavoc123 said:


> I have a lucid dream pretty much every night. There's really nothing to it.


Yeah, me too.  I have incredibly intense dreams, and have complete control over them.  Except for the occasional not so good dream, which doesn't turn out that well.  Lucid dreaming is pretty neat.  I wish I knew why some people can do it, and some can't.  Reading my dream journal is really weird.  I have about 2 or 3 years worth of the stuff, and sometimes I like to go back and see what was up.  It changes as I have changed in real life.


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## capthavoc123 (Jul 13, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Yeah, me too.  I have incredibly intense dreams, and have complete control over them.  Except for the occasional not so good dream, which doesn't turn out that well.  Lucid dreaming is pretty neat.  I wish I knew why some people can do it, and some can't.  Reading my dream journal is really weird.  I have about 2 or 3 years worth of the stuff, and sometimes I like to go back and see what was up.  It changes as I have changed in real life.



I've been thinking about keeping a dream journal for a while now. Have you noticed if keeping a dream journal actually affects the content of your dreams?


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## Snowden (Jul 13, 2008)

Drakkenmensch said:


> Achieving awareness from within a normal dream through chance is extremely unreliable and incurs a chance of waking up.



Actually you can achieve a lucid dream from this. It's called Dream Induced Lucid Dream or DILD although it probably doesn't happen regularly to most people, it just happens randomly pretty much. I have had DILDs myself without being waken up, the only reason you might wake up is when you're too excited or by something else. 



> Snowden's suggested method looks like the best chance of getting reliable results on demand.


If you're talking about Finger Induced Lucid Dream (FILD) then yes. It gives you an instant access to a lucid dream almost. It's a variation of WILD where you laying in bed gets transferred into the dream world. The link I gave for it goes into more detail.


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## net-cat (Jul 14, 2008)

Lucid dreaming, eh? I do it all the time.

My brain seems to have a tough time putting together composite environments that are even remotely realistic. So it's usually pretty obvious.


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## Azure (Jul 14, 2008)

capthavoc123 said:


> I've been thinking about keeping a dream journal for a while now. Have you noticed if keeping a dream journal actually affects the content of your dreams?


Yeah, sometimes I repeat myself in uncanny ways.  Like almost down to the last thing, like a carbon copy.  It also makes me more aware in my dreams, but other than that, it's just a fun thing to do.


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## Krimzen (Jul 14, 2008)

I recall one where there was a mass murder at my school via evil red avp alien...It was kinda funny, terrifying too. I didn't run fast enough and got run over by Cloud Strife's motorcycle that the alien stole somehow.. I haven't had any as of late that I can remember, but a goal of mine is to live out my story that I've been working on.


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## Drakkenmensch (Jul 14, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> Not just that but what's called "dream signs." Basically when you're not lucid, you see/experience something you trained yourself to remember and/or know is impossible in the real world, letting you know you're dreaming. I've actually gotten pretty good at _recognizing_ dream signs, just not so much recognizing them _as_ dream signs. I've kicked myself some mornings where I missed some of the most obvious and common ones, like numbers on a digital clock flickering and erratically changing (or in my case a room _full of them_) and seeing two suns, two moons, stuff like that. I'll usually focus on them and have feelings of remembering them from _somewhere_ which _usually_ results in false memory instead of a lucid dream.



One sign I've noticed can be pretty telling is trying to read while in a dream. In the Batman animated series, Bruce Wayne recognizes that he's in a dreamlike state induced by the Mad Hatter's machine because the newspaper he tries to read is filled with gibberish that seems to be leaking from the page. It's been my experience that reading while in a dream is EXACTLY like that. Not only will the words look garbled on the page, but the act of trying to read aloud result in words slurring as if talking with marbles in my mouth. It's blatantly obvious that something is not normal when that happens.


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## WhiteHowl (Jul 14, 2008)

I did it once, and only once. I inexplicably ended up in a classroom and i said to myself, I'm dreaming aren't I. Then I fell asleep in my dream and ended up having a dream within a dream.


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## LizardKing (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm a member on ld4all, but haven't logged in for about 2 years. I need to get back into it really, it's good fun. I seem to have trouble with anything too fun though, I just wake up  I think the last one I had I just flew around for a bit, then turned it from night to sunrise. Sunrise in the dream was nothing like a normal one, it was quite amazing to see. I still remember it clearly.


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

LizardKing said:


> I'm a member on ld4all, but haven't logged in for about 2 years. I need to get back into it really, it's good fun. I seem to have trouble with anything too fun though, I just wake up  I think the last one I had I just flew around for a bit, then turned it from night to sunrise. Sunrise in the dream was nothing like a normal one, it was quite amazing to see. I still remember it clearly.



Ah, hey there LizardKing it's kTFox/kT4all. I didn't know you were on here


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

I remember like around four dragon dreams. One was a year ago and another was when I was like 10 and I still remember it (it had other characters from games and stuff). Seems like I enjoy Dragon dreams a lot, feels.. peaceful in them.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 14, 2008)

I have done this before, and its quite the experience.


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## Echo_wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

i have lucid dreamed a few time b4. and a couple of times some one elsed pulled me into their dreams and talked to me.. itvwas pretty weird. both of the were highly experienced at it . one was a monk i think from tibet the other was a witch or something. they were tryin to teach me a lil more in depth about it.... but iguess thats more astraltravel than ucid dreamig huh?


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Holy shit. We even have astral travellers here?..


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## rubixcuber (Jul 14, 2008)

I've been trying to lucid dream for the better part of a decade with no success. Probably has something to do with my chronic insomnia.


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## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 14, 2008)

Oh lord, lucid dreaming. Is that bullcrap still around? It's impossible, you know. When your dreaming, your prefrontal lobes are shut down. What's happening is that when you wake up, your brain is rearranging the random images generate in REM sleep into the semblance of a cohesive story. If you're conscious when you're dreaming, you have a sleep disorder and should probably get medical help.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Oh lord, lucid dreaming. Is that bullcrap still around? It's impossible, you know.


It's funny because we have at least 5 people in this thread who had lucid dreams at one point or another.


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Oh lord, lucid dreaming. Is that bullcrap still around? It's impossible, you know. When your dreaming, your prefrontal lobes are shut down. What's happening is that when you wake up, your brain is rearranging the random images generate in REM sleep into the semblance of a cohesive story. If you're conscious when you're dreaming, you have a sleep disorder and should probably get medical help.



Statement is *false*. You never had one before, so you have no say in it.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

And, of course, cortex as a whole is excessively active during the Rapid Eye Movement sleep phase (when we have dreams as such). But that's nitpicking.

I wonder if Lucid Dreams actually extend this phase or just alter time perception like normal dreams do anyway. Hm... Aren't WILDs supposed to initiate REM phase by definition? That would be pretty cool just by itself.


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## Echo_wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Holy shit. We even have astral travellers here?..


 yes ^.^ spirit has no limits... well i cant say that cuz there are limits... and there are those who insure those boundries arent crossed


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Oh lord, lucid dreaming. Is that bullcrap still around? It's impossible, you know. When your dreaming, your prefrontal lobes are shut down. What's happening is that when you wake up, your brain is rearranging the random images generate in REM sleep into the semblance of a cohesive story. If you're conscious when you're dreaming, you have a sleep disorder and should probably get medical help.









Also, does anyone else notice a weird pattern on the internet of people saying "if X you probably have Y disorder and should probably get medical help" *always* sounding like they're full of shit?


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> Also, does anyone else notice a weird pattern on the internet of people saying "if X you probably have Y disorder and should probably get medical help" *always* sounding like they're full of shit?


Oh god, yes.

I guess that's probably because throughout psychological and medical analysis coupled with corresponding education and underlying qualifications typically required for diagnosis of most conditions usually can't be inferred from one or two posts on an internet bulletin board.

PS: Love the macro, but do you really crave for infraction points so much?..


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 14, 2008)

Drakkenmensch said:


> One sign I've noticed can be pretty telling is trying to read while in a dream. In the Batman animated series, Bruce Wayne recognizes that he's in a dreamlike state induced by the Mad Hatter's machine because the newspaper he tries to read is filled with gibberish that seems to be leaking from the page. It's been my experience that reading while in a dream is EXACTLY like that. Not only will the words look garbled on the page, but the act of trying to read aloud result in words slurring as if talking with marbles in my mouth. It's blatantly obvious that something is not normal when that happens.



I seem to be one of the only people who actually _can_ read coherently in dreams, even though it's only occasionally and there'll usually be _some_ distortion.


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## Adelio Altomar (Jul 14, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> Also, does anyone else notice a weird pattern on the internet of people saying "if X you probably have Y disorder and should probably get medical help" *always* sounding like they're full of shit?


 
So many chances to sell useless pills to so many hypochondriac Americans! It's a pharmacist's dream!


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 14, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> PS: Love the macro, but do you really crave for infraction points so much?..



I don't think FA is becoming _that_ Orwellian.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> I don't think FA is becoming _that_ Orwellian.


We'll see, I guess.


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## Monak (Jul 14, 2008)

Most of my dreams a lucid dreams which can get annoying , but at the same time be pretty fun cause you can change the dream to your own desires.  Meditation can help a lot when it comes to achiving a lucid dream state.


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## Lucid (Jul 14, 2008)

Used to be able to lucid dream sometimes.  Now I rarely dream (probably cause of lack of sleep, stress, stuff like that) which is annoying.  Probably going to start trying to achieve lucid dreaming again, but I don't really know how well that's gonna go v.v


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

Monak said:


> Most of my dreams a lucid dreams which can get annoying , but at the same time be pretty fun cause you can change the dream to your own desires.  Meditation can help a lot when it comes to achiving a lucid dream state.



I can see it getting annoying, it's nice to have some normal dreams every now and then. I'm trying to get into meditation, but I just don't know where to start.


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## Monak (Jul 14, 2008)

Snowden said:


> I can see it getting annoying, it's nice to have some normal dreams every now and then. I'm trying to get into meditation, but I just don't know where to start.



read up on different meditation practices use what ever suits you best , or you can even mix and match taking a little bit from everywhere.  Though never expect results always see it as a way to relax yourself.  As you find it easier to clear your mind you will eventually be able to close the world out as well.  To get to a really good meditative state every time takes a couple years of practice.  The more you do it the more you will understand your own mind and learn to grow from there.


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## Echo_wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Lucid said:


> Used to be able to lucid dream sometimes. Now I rarely dream (probably cause of lack of sleep, stress, stuff like that) which is annoying. Probably going to start trying to achieve lucid dreaming again, but I don't really know how well that's gonna go v.v


my 1st sugestion would be to medatate and calm alot of the stress knowing how hard that can be sometimes but it help. also stay mentally active off the stressful problems, drink tea and eat new things . theese are somethings that can help spark back open your dreams. then you should try your lucid dreams after that. just remember to stay relaxed and active


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## Samoya_Wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Echo_wulf said:


> my 1st sugestion would be to medatate and calm alot of the stress knowing how hard that can be sometimes but it help. also stay mentally active off the stressful problems, drink tea and eat new things . theese are somethings that can help spark back open your dreams. then you should try your lucid dreams after that. just remember to stay relaxed and active


Why didn't you tell me this when I was haveing dream problems lol


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## Echo_wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Samoya_Wulf said:


> Why didn't you tell me this when I was haveing dream problems lol


 i did tell u several times


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## Samoya_Wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Echo_wulf said:


> i did tell u several times


My memory sucks -_- love you


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## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 14, 2008)

Maybe instead of getting your knickers in a twist when someone dares not accept your anecdotes at face value, you should, y'know, entertain the possibility I'm right? But no, of course not. Obviously the people who think they can speak mind-to-mind in their dreams are the sensible ones. Whatever. I didn't honestly expect anything more. Just at work and bored to tears.  

Oh, and Snowden? Dude, seriously? I don't think lucid dreaming exists because I've never had one? How is that logical? Hey, tell you what. Send me a dream tonight and explain it to me. I'll be waiting.


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## Adelio Altomar (Jul 14, 2008)

Is it possible to lucid dream all the time?


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## Echo_wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Adelio Altomar said:


> Is it possible to lucid dream all the time?


 there are those that can but their mind and bodies are trained for it. lucid dreaming all the time can take a major toll on your body depending how your body collects and burns enegy as you sleep  so its kinda hard to explain some people can some people cant thier mentality is a major key concept in it


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Maybe instead of getting your knickers in a twist when someone dares not accept your anecdotes at face value, you should, y'know, entertain the possibility I'm right? But no, of course not. Obviously the people who think they can speak mind-to-mind in their dreams are the sensible ones. Whatever. I didn't honestly expect anything more. Just at work and bored to tears.
> 
> Oh, and Snowden? Dude, seriously? I don't think lucid dreaming exists because I've never had one? How is that logical? Hey, tell you what. Send me a dream tonight and explain it to me. I'll be waiting.



UUuuummm if that was possible nobody would talk so much shit because they'd send you their foot to break off in your ass, but that's beside the point.

It's not a simple matter of we're saying it's real because we've experienced it. Sleep experts have been documenting it for decades. They've developed devices to trigger it. They've even done tests to see if the lucid dreamer is in fact dreaming in real time instead of fooling themselves that they were aware after the fact by getting them to move their eyes up and down, left and right to signify they've achieved lucidity.


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## Echo_wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Maybe instead of getting your knickers in a twist when someone dares not accept your anecdotes at face value, you should, y'know, entertain the possibility I'm right? But no, of course not. Obviously the people who think they can speak mind-to-mind in their dreams are the sensible ones. Whatever. I didn't honestly expect anything more. Just at work and bored to tears.
> 
> Oh, and Snowden? Dude, seriously? I don't think lucid dreaming exists because I've never had one? How is that logical? Hey, tell you what. Send me a dream tonight and explain it to me. I'll be waiting.


 
can we just agree to disagree please its kina a jesus complex to some people some say he's thereothers say he doesnt exsist. please just let it go we dont need an argueing thread here andi know there are those that will argue


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## Samoya_Wulf (Jul 14, 2008)

Echo_wulf said:


> can we just agree to disagree please its kina a jesus complex to some people some say he's thereothers say he doesnt exsist. please just let it go we dont need an argueing thread here andi know there are those that will argue


I second this motion


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

Carry on.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Maybe instead of getting your knickers in a twist when someone dares not accept your anecdotes at face value, you should, y'know, entertain the possibility I'm right?


You do realise that trying to give out advice noone asked for about matters you have no understanding of doesn't make you look good? At least not a degree for anyone to agree (huh) with you out the blue.

It's the same reason everyone and their mother hates those Creationist creeps - just do your research, goddamn.



Wolf-Bone said:


> It's not a simple matter of we're saying it's real because we've experienced it. Sleep experts have been documenting it for decades. They've developed devices to trigger it. They've even done tests to see if the lucid dreamer is in fact dreaming in real time instead of fooling themselves that they were aware after the fact by getting them to move their eyes up and down, left and right to signify they've achieved lucidity.


 I don't assume you'd have any more details about these studies? Sounds extremely interesting.


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## Mizuhana Kositeru (Jul 14, 2008)

I wish that I could even *dream *properly, but I've only had nightmares and terrors since some time in elementary school (and I'm in Uni now). All of you who have blank sleep or just dream, lucid or not, are incredibly lucky in my opinion. But on with the actual thread topic.

It's too often that I find myself in a lucid nightmare, if that is what you'd even call it. Sometimes I know perfectly well that I'm sleeping, that what's occurring isn't truly real and happening at all, but that never makes things any better. I almost always try to make myself wake up somehow, but that rarely works; I have never been able to really control what goes on in the nightmares (obviously if I could, they wouldn't be nightmares, I think), and sometimes I can't even control what I personally say and do even while knowing I'm really just sleeping and this is all in my head. Over the years I've thought of a few theories why this happens, but they're just theories. I've tried a lot of different methods and suggestions for having good dreams, simply dreaming, and nothing has worked for me.

Maybe one wouldn't call it a lucid nightmare/dream since I'm never able to control it? In that case, what would it be called since I know that I'm just stuck in my mind during sleep, and that it's all not real?


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## capthavoc123 (Jul 14, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Oh lord, lucid dreaming. Is that bullcrap still around? It's impossible, you know. When your dreaming, your prefrontal lobes are shut down. What's happening is that when you wake up, your brain is rearranging the random images generate in REM sleep into the semblance of a cohesive story. If you're conscious when you're dreaming, you have a sleep disorder and should probably get medical help.



I'm afraid you're wrong. Obviously your research has led you astray at some point. I would suggest going back and trying again.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Mizuhana Kositeru said:


> I wish that I could even *dream *properly, but I've only had nightmares and terrors since some time in elementary school (and I'm in Uni now). All of you who have blank sleep or just dream, lucid or not, are incredibly lucky in my opinion. But on with the actual thread topic.
> 
> It's too often that I find myself in a lucid nightmare, if that is what you'd even call it. Sometimes I know perfectly well that I'm sleeping, that what's occurring isn't truly real and happening at all, but that never makes things any better. I almost always try to make myself wake up somehow, but that rarely works; I have never been able to really control what goes on in the nightmares (obviously if I could, they wouldn't be nightmares, I think), and sometimes I can't even control what I personally say and do even while knowing I'm really just sleeping and this is all in my head. Over the years I've thought of a few theories why this happens, but they're just theories. I've tried a lot of different methods and suggestions for having good dreams, simply dreaming, and nothing has worked for me.
> 
> Maybe one wouldn't call it a lucid nightmare/dream since I'm never able to control it? In that case, what would it be called since I know that I'm just stuck in my mind during sleep, and that it's all not real?


Having no dreams or adequate sleep whatsoever for the last half of the year, I'd challenge that, but...

Well, yes. Nightmares can be gateways to lucid dreams as well - at least they were a time or two for me (and clearly are for you). Your case sounds rather... Interesting. I know I've had one or two lucid dreams thanks to nightmares - and, I remember, all it took is a few seconds of clear thought to take over control. Of course it also takes a strong will - but that's also usually a pre-requirement to attaining lucidity in the first place.

Self-awareness is usually the only criteria there is for a lucid dream, but, I've never heard of someone not being able to take control once they know it's just a dream. Though, honestly, I haven't heard of that many cases of lucid dreaming in general (not personally, anyway).


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

> I don't assume you'd have any more details about these studies? Sounds extremely interesting.


You can probably find some more interesting stuff at www.lucidity.com [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica]by Stephen LaBerge[/FONT]. They might have that study there, I remember reading something about it. There's an FAQ, literature, research articles, etc. Actually, I'm going to add that to the list of links right now..


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Snowden said:


> You can probably find some more interesting stuff at www.lucidity.com [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica]by Stephen LaBerge[/FONT]. They might have that study there, I remember reading something about it. There's an FAQ, literature, research articles, etc. Actually, I'm going to add that to the list of links right now..


Thanks again!


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## Monak (Jul 14, 2008)

Look for something in your dream that doesn't belong in reality , wether it be someone who is dead or a tree full of blue apples.  There tends to be things in our dreams that tell us it is infact a dream , it is how our mind safe guards against our own fears.  When you find such things most of the time you will wake up but other times it will allow you to change your dream scape.  When you think you have found yourself in a dream try to do something you can't in the waking like flying (from the ground incase your not sleeping).  From there you choose whatever you like , they are your dreams to be had after all.


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

Monak said:


> Look for something in your dream that doesn't belong in reality , wether it be someone who is dead or a tree full of blue apples.  There tends to be things in our dreams that tell us it is infact a dream , it is how our mind safe guards against our own fears.  When you find such things most of the time you will wake up but other times it will allow you to change your dream scape.  When you think you have found yourself in a dream try to do something you can't in the waking like flying (from the ground incase your not sleeping).  From there you choose whatever you like , they are your dreams to be had after all.



Mhmm. What you're describing is called a dream sign.


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## Nargle (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm really interested in this lucid dreaming. I read a bit on www.ld4all.com and I'm totally going to try it tonight. I never even knew this sort of thing was possible...

Sometimes, though, just before I go to bed, I try meditating. I used to listen to this meditation walkthrough thing, to help relieve my anxiety, and eventually, after doing this sort of "Meet your spiritual guardian" type of meditation, I came up with this giant silvery wolf with huge, silver, eagle-like wings. Whenever I had a problem or a question, I would go talk to him and he'd immediately give me the answer. He was also very comforting and nice and fluffy to hug n.n Lately, though, I've been having trouble getting back to that state to where I can meditate. I'll sit up or lay in bed, and the process begins very much like the WILD I read about. I'll concentrate very hard on breathing and focusing on the center of my head, and after a while I'll feel like I'm spinning in place or falling off the bed (BTW my mattress is on the floor, so I'm not.) But THEN, I suddenly start having all sorts of random thoughts pop into my head, and they sound LOUD! Like I'll start worrying about something completely inconsiquential, or I'll start hearing things like my cat on the other side of the house. (Small house, mind you.) Naturally, I focus even harder on beathing and feeling the center of my head. But then I start getting a really bad headache, and eventually just give up. Usually on those nights, I rarely remember my dreams. And also, I never get the images in my head like the site describes. Does this sound like it will interfere with having lucid dreams? If so, what do you do to fix it?


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I'm really interested in this lucid dreaming. I read a bit on www.ld4all.com and I'm totally going to try it tonight. I never even knew this sort of thing was possible...
> 
> Sometimes, though, just before I go to bed, I try meditating. I used to listen to this meditation walkthrough thing, to help relieve my anxiety, and eventually, after doing this sort of "Meet your spiritual guardian" type of meditation, I came up with this giant silvery wolf with huge, silver, eagle-like wings. Whenever I had a problem or a question, I would go talk to him and he'd immediately give me the answer. He was also very comforting and nice and fluffy to hug n.n Lately, though, I've been having trouble getting back to that state to where I can meditate. I'll sit up or lay in bed, and the process begins very much like the WILD I read about. I'll concentrate very hard on breathing and focusing on the center of my head, and after a while I'll feel like I'm spinning in place or falling off the bed (BTW my mattress is on the floor, so I'm not.) But THEN, I suddenly start having all sorts of random thoughts pop into my head, and they sound LOUD! Like I'll start worrying about something completely inconsiquential, or I'll start hearing things like my cat on the other side of the house. (Small house, mind you.) Naturally, I focus even harder on beathing and feeling the center of my head. But then I start getting a really bad headache, and eventually just give up. Usually on those nights, I rarely remember my dreams. And also, I never get the images in my head like the site describes. Does this sound like it will interfere with having lucid dreams? If so, what do you do to fix it?



I really like the spirit guide part. There's actually a thread dedicated to spirit guide and one that teaches how to contact them while awake. I'm still searching for mine though . 

The images can be either blobs of color floating around to vivid images that might soon become a dream. I don't get HI that often either, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't effect getting a lucid dream. A way to get good dream recall is to create a dream journal and record any dreams that you do remember and it would go up from there. If you don't remember any dreams then I'm not quite sure ... maybe you can post this in introduction thread on the forum and someone can help you, also use the search function to find other similar thread that can help you.


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## Nargle (Jul 14, 2008)

Ah, okay, thanks n.n

But yeah, my spirit guide is cool n.n Maybe I can find the site with the walkthroughs, it was actually very easy for me. It involved first walking through a cave and being self aware and stuff, then coming out the other end into your "sanctuary." Find a place to sit and wait, and eventually your spirit guild will come somehow. My sanctuary was a small clearing in a forest, surrounded by a fence of tall grass, and one big tree stretching over the entire clearing. I sat on a tree stump for a while, and eventually this GIANT silver wolf (Maybe Shire Horse sized?) with wings just walked out of the grass and started talking to me. He was very cool n.n Forgot what I asked him, though.

Now though, whenever I try to get back to my sanctuary, I just keep imagining myself entering the start of the cave over and over again and never getting anywhere, like a broken record =(


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## Adelio Altomar (Jul 14, 2008)

I wonder if lucid dreaming has connections to spirituality...


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## Snowden (Jul 14, 2008)

Adelio Altomar said:


> I wonder if lucid dreaming has connections to spirituality...



I think some believes do connect with lucid dreaming, like the Tibet/Buddhists or something. Some people also think that the spirit guides are their guardian angel and you can meet them in your dreams. There's links there provided there so you can go double check. There's also a sub-forum on www.ld4all.com that's called Spiritual Corner a place to discuss the unexplained and the paranormal, as well as spiritual development in waking life. Astral projection, healing, auras, spirit guides, angelic beings, meditation, yoga, telepathy, etc. This is not to (demand) proof (of) existance of the unexplained, rather to discuss, share experiences or learn more about it.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

Adelio Altomar said:


> I wonder if lucid dreaming has connections to spirituality...


"Spirituality" is a terribly ambiguous term to begin with.

It's connected with Science, even if it's not a prominent research field, I can tell you that much - just check the Wiki article or the links in OP. If you mean "Psychological" though, then yes, it certainly can be.


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## Monak (Jul 15, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> "Spirituality" is a terribly ambiguous term to begin with.
> 
> It's connected with Science, even if it's not a prominent research field, I can tell you that much - just check the Wiki article or the links in OP. If you mean "Psychological" though, then yes, it certainly can be.



Cause wiki articles are the most accurate points of referance on the face of the Earth.  I searched Jesus once , and the article simply said OMG he had such a rocking bod , I want to sex him up.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

Monak said:


> Cause wiki articles are the most accurate points of referance on the face of the Earth. I searched Jesus once , and the article simply said OMG he had such a rocking bod , I want to sex him up.


Shunning Wiki was cool just 10 years ago, way to catch up.


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## noob1444 (Jul 15, 2008)

Don't know if it's luicd but, I nearly woke up.

I was in front of a stop sign, I noticed the top of it was wavy, I look at it some more when out of the top comes this giant grinning skull, by then I realised, "I must be dreaming" So then the skull eats my face. And I STILL didn't wake up. The skull spits my face back on, I run away, still knowing that I'm dreaming, I go to the world's best library in under a second. I check out a book, but I don't remember the title. Poof. Scene change. (this is all happening in the same night) Now I'm in a hospital gurney with ballons floating next to me. It pops, and a red fluid sprays everywhere. So I'm freaking out, the doctors are taking me somewhere I don't know, there's blood everywhere. But my guess is that I was going to the ER to get my face sewed back on. Poof, back to the stop sign. (still knowing I'm dreaming) I pull a toothpick out of nowhere, the skull appears, but then I throw the toothpick at it, it knocks off it's jaw. Poof. Now I'm in some random persons house celebrating the defeat of the skull. And then everyone at the party turns into spiders.

That's as far back as I can remember. Yes, I get odd dreams.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

Interesting. Seems that lucidity itself and actually taking control of the dream are two different things...

Apparently it takes a measure of self-control to actually, well, control yourself. Lovely.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 15, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Oh lord, lucid dreaming. Is that bullcrap still around? It's impossible, you know. When your dreaming, your prefrontal lobes are shut down.


 
I think experience of consciousness while dreaming is fairly well documented; I myself would report a half-dozen experiences of that sort when I was ages 8-12, which were all disturbing, abnormal states of consciousness that I developed particular self-affect-modifying ploys to abort. I've had three or so since then.

I'm extremely skeptical that any approach that didn't involve either chemicals or sleep pattern disruption could have any deliberate effect on frequency of lucid dreaming, tho', and the idea of some sort of supernatural power to, say, actually interact with others, is pure bunk. Also extremely skeptical of claims of routine lucid dreaming. Routinely lucid dreaming, I agree, would probably be best explained by some serious sleep disorder, I agree.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> I'm extremely skeptical that any approach that didn't involve either chemicals or sleep pattern disruption could have any deliberate effect on frequency of lucid dreaming


Clever. Technically, quite a few of the methods I came across involve either or both of these.

Though I'm not sure why would anyone doubt that meditation practices, training and pure will could be used to attain a better degree of control over one's consciousness.


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## Monak (Jul 15, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> I think experience of consciousness while dreaming is fairly well documented; I myself would report a half-dozen experiences of that sort when I was ages 8-12, which were all disturbing, abnormal states of consciousness that I developed particular self-affect-modifying ploys to abort. I've had three or so since then.
> 
> I'm extremely skeptical that any approach that didn't involve either chemicals or sleep pattern disruption could have any deliberate effect on frequency of lucid dreaming, tho', and the idea of some sort of supernatural power to, say, actually interact with others, is pure bunk. Also extremely skeptical of claims of routine lucid dreaming. Routinely lucid dreaming, I agree, would probably be best explained by some serious sleep disorder, I agree.



I think people have a very high suggestablity rate when they are in a dream state , like talking to someone while they sleep and the next day they tell you of a dream about what ever it was you had said to them in their sleep , or leaving a TV going and your dream shifting to what your picking up on from the TV show.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 15, 2008)

Snowden said:


> Statement is false. You never had one before, so you have no say in it.


What? How does that make a bit of sense?



			
				wolf-bone said:
			
		

> Also, does anyone else notice a weird pattern on the internet of people saying "if X you probably have Y disorder and should probably get medical help" always sounding like they're full of shit?


No, because, they don't? What you mean is, they sound obnoxious. Frustrating as it can be for those who actually are full of shit, there's no correlation between that and obnoxious.



			
				Echo_Wulf said:
			
		

> can we just agree to disagree please its kina a jesus complex to some people some say he's thereothers say he doesnt exsist.


 
At the risk of fatal derailment, let me just say: the question you compare it to has a definite answer too-- and so is a pretty awful example of something that shouldn't be discussed.


Finally: I think I've spotted the disconnect after rereading the thread: 

How many people think you can actually communicate with anyone/thing outside yourself, in lucid dreams? Demon appears to think it's defined that way. Some express enthusiasts of it seem to think it's possible. It's not possible, and my understanding of the word does not include supernatural, telepathic powers, etc.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

Monak said:


> I think people have a very high suggestablity rate when they are in a dream state , like talking to someone while they sleep and the next day they tell you of a dream about what ever it was you had said to them in their sleep , or leaving a TV going and your dream shifting to what your picking up on from the TV show.


Well, that's a documented fact. After all, our senses never truly switch off whilst in a dream, and neither does the consciousness.



Furthlingam said:


> At the risk of fatal derailment, let me just say: the question you compare it to has a definite answer too-- and so is a pretty awful example of something that shouldn't be discussed.


At the risk of further derailment, last I checked, most historical research about this guy was inconclusive at best.



Furthlingam said:


> How many people think you can actually communicate with anyone/thing outside yourself, in lucid dreams? Demon appears to think it's defined that way.


Haven't noticed that. I think *fucking hell I never remember names* said something about being pulled into a lucid dream or so... But that's about it.

Otherwise, lucid dreaming and astral travel are rather easy to confuse for someone new to the subject, mainly since the methods to achieving either are mostly quite similar.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 15, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Though I'm not sure why would anyone doubt that meditation practices, training and pure will could be used to attain a better degree of control over one's consciousness.


 
Well, control over consciousness that's actually present, is not the question. I think demon's/my skepticism on this point is very well placed, because what lucid dreaming implies is an alteration of a brain state that starts out and normally is strongly associated with NOT being conscious.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> Well, control over consciousness that's actually present, is not the question. I think demon's/my skepticism on this point is very well placed, because what lucid dreaming implies is an alteration of a brain state that starts out and normally is strongly associated with NOT being conscious.


I'm not sure what gives you the idea.

Having a dream as such implies being conscious to an extent; after all, if you weren't conscious, you wouldn't see the dream. It's not "conscious" in it's day-to-day use, sure, but you're still conscious in medical/psychological terms. What you do most commonly lack in this state is self-awareness, lucidity and will - each to a certain degree.

I think the official term is "Altered consciousness state".


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## Furthlingam (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> I'm not sure what gives you the idea.
> 
> Having a dream as such implies being conscious to an extent; after all, if you weren't conscious, you wouldn't see the dream. It's not "conscious" in it's day-to-day use, sure, but you're still conscious in medical/psychological terms. What you do most commonly lack in this state is self-awareness, lucidity and will - each to a certain degree.
> 
> I think the official term is "Altered consciousness state".


 
While there are reports (that I suspect leave a lot of relevant info out, but it's not an area I've researched) of people slipping from consciousness directly into lucid dreaming, as a rule lucid dreaming occurs in sandwiched tightly between periods of unconsciousness (sleep), and in a state that is almost universally associated with being unconscious.

"Having" a normal dream means remembering a dream, memory and consciousness are pretty distinct. The brain's normally in a very different state in dreams, and one marked by unconcsiousness and no activity very comparable to will. So will operating to change that state seems dubious.

Maybe it does anyway, but there you have the reason for the skepticism.


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## Azure (Jul 16, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> How many people think you can actually communicate with anyone/thing outside yourself, in lucid dreams? Demon appears to think it's defined that way. Some express enthusiasts of it seem to think it's possible. It's not possible, and my understanding of the word does not include supernatural, telepathic powers, etc.


What do you mean, communicate?  I speak to people in my dreams, and it feels rather real the sensations I am experiencing.  But I know it is a dream.  I'm not really sure what telepathy and supernatural things have to do with this?  Please explain, I find this interesting.

Edit-  I kinda see, you're saying that due to my unconscious state, my "will" is supposedly inactive.  I can see why you'd think that, but the subconscious is always operating, and I would assert that we have things related to will within that.  The brain is not well understood, as far as dreams go.  I can distinctly remember being able to direct myself in many dreams.  Perhaps not all the time, but there are many instances when "I" asserted my will within the dream.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> While there are reports (that I suspect leave a lot of relevant info out, but it's not an area I've researched) of people slipping from consciousness directly into lucid dreaming, as a rule lucid dreaming occurs in sandwiched tightly between periods of unconsciousness (sleep), and in a state that is almost universally associated with being unconscious.


I believe you're confusing Dreaming with Sleeping here. Dreams occur during the Rapid Eye Movement phase of Sleep.

I have previously wondered about whether Lucid Dreaming fits into this period in it's natural place, or actually induces it. So far it seems that either is possible depending on the method used.



Furthlingam said:


> "Having" a normal dream means remembering a dream, memory and consciousness are pretty distinct. The brain's normally in a very different state in dreams, and one marked by unconcsiousness and no activity very comparable to will. So will operating to change that state seems dubious.


Well, again, I don't know where you're pulling that from or what on Earth gives you the idea.

Human experience of REM phase is very-well documented and leaves only one room for interpretation - a prolonged state of altered consciousness. The fact that dream itself is rapidly removed from conscious memory as the subject goes back to being wide-awake is also well-known.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 16, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> What do you mean, communicate? I speak to people in my dreams, and it feels rather real the sensations I am experiencing. But I know it is a dream. I'm not really sure what telepathy and supernatural things have to do with this? Please explain, I find this interesting.


 
The key to that was "outside yourself" part-- by which I meant, to be clearer: your actual self-- the self, you know, lying in bed at the time.

A couple people in this thread have seemed to mention meeting up with *actual *other people in their dreams-- that is, wake up the next morning, and find out the other guy knows the secret word you told him only in the dream, etc... or to have "astrally traveled," that is, to have observed the actual world, such that they could wake up and accurately report, say, a crime that happened far away while they were sleeping.

Based on what he said, I think Demon thinks this kind of experience is by definition part of lucid dreaming (which would be a good reason for to call it bunk). I suspect most people don't think that's what the term means. Anyway, I don't, and think we have a misunderstanding of a term brewing.

Not that other posters didn't also bring it up, regardless of whether Demon, the local consensus, and the actual meaning of the word all agree.


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## Azure (Jul 16, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> The key to that was "outside yourself" part-- by which I meant, to be clearer: your actual self-- the self, you know, lying in bed at the time.
> 
> A couple people in this thread have seemed to mention meeting up with *actual *other people in their dreams-- that is, wake up the next morning, and find out the other guy knows the secret word you told him only in the dream, etc... or to have "astrally traveled," that is, to have observed the actual world, such that they could wake up and accurately report, say, a crime that happened far away while they were sleeping.
> 
> ...


Guess I should backread.  But yeah, I can see calling bullshit on that.  Along with psychics, fortune tellers, and ghost stories, astral travel is ridiculous.  I can somewhat change my dream scape, have an awareness of it being a dream, and can somewhat assert my "id" if you will, into it.  I don't project out of my body and talk to Einsteins ghost.  That's just silly.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> A couple people in this thread have seemed to mention meeting up with *actual *other people in their dreams-- that is, wake up the next morning, and find out the other guy knows the secret word you told him only in the dream, etc... or to have "astrally traveled," that is, to have observed the actual world, such that they could wake up and accurately report, say, a crime that happened far away while they were sleeping.
> 
> Based on what he said, I think Demon thinks this kind of experience is by definition part of lucid dreaming (which would be a good reason for to call it bunk). I suspect most people don't think that's what the term means. Anyway, I don't, and think we have a misunderstanding of a term brewing.


I see just one person claiming this.

As I said before, out-of-body experiences and Lucid Dreaming can be easily confused since - duh - both deal with rather fantastic environments and possibilities.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> I believe you're confusing Dreaming with Sleeping here. Dreams occur during the Rapid Eye Movement phase of Sleep.


 
Dreaming is sleep. A subset of it. There isn't consciousness in it, excepting the very unusual subject at hand.




> Well, again, I don't know where you're pulling that from or what on Earth gives you the idea.


 
Experience.



> Human experience of REM phase is very-well documented and leaves only one room for interpretation - a prolonged state of altered consciousness.


 
Granted I can't be sure what technical language sleep researchers use among themselves, but coma, dreamless sleep, and dreaming are all 'altered' states of consciousness. Consciousness, which is, the experience of consciousness, has been absent in 99.9% of all dreams I have ever become aware of, and similar experiences have been confirmed by dozens of people I've talked to in person about it, except maybe my cousin, who probably reports a slightly lower incidence, which I'll guesstimate at 99.5%.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> I see just one person claiming this.


I recall noticing three, including Demon. 



> Anyway, as I said before, out-of-body experiences and Lucid Dreaming can be easily confused since - duh - both deal with rather fantastic environments and possibilities.


 
An experience can be either, both, or neither. Naturally I agree many people are probably mistaken about whether they've had actual experiences out of body, on account of lucid dreaming and other unusual experiences. They _haven't _had-- but it explains understanding the term that way.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

What the fuck. Did you just ignore my entire post only to say "I think not cause I don't know"?


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## Furthlingam (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> What the fuck. Did you just ignore my entire post only to say "I think not cause I don't know"?


 
Respectively: Please clarify, no, and that's not what I said.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

I can't start quoting everything I studied over the years out of nothing, but I did put it into the few posts above, at least as much as my word has it. Apparently I automatically assumed everyone is as educated on the subject there... My bad. However, you still managed to say nothing but the exact opposite of what I did back there, which, you understand, can be rather aggravating in light of all this.

I hope you understand that this argument will remain futile in light of different understandings of terms like "consciousness", "sleep", "dream", "lucidity" and other terms, especially in scientific terms.

So, the best I can do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming
http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html
http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html
http://www.dreamviews.com/sleepstages.php

Addendum: Scepticism is a really useful thing in an by itself. It does, however, require a level of education and understanding on the matter you're addressing with it to be remain an efficiency-oriented tool that it is, rather than being an argument from ignorance.


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## Nargle (Jul 17, 2008)

Hey, guess what! I had two lucid dreams yesterday using the techniques on www.ld4all.com =D Granted, they only lasted a few seconds each, but they that's good for my first attempt!!

And, lucid dreaming and out of body experiences are like.. completely opposite... Just to let your know. I'm not sure if I believe in OBEs, but I do know that by definition, they're completely different.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Hey, guess what! I had two lucid dreams yesterday using the techniques on www.ld4all.com =D Granted, they only lasted a few seconds each, but they that's good for my first attempt!!


Goddamn you. I haven't had proper sleep for weeks now.



Nargle said:


> And, lucid dreaming and out of body experiences are like.. completely opposite... Just to let your know. I'm not sure if I believe in OBEs, but I do know that by definition, they're completely different.


Yes, they pretty much are. It's just that, ironically, the methods used for achieving either are quite similar.


----------



## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Goddamn you. I haven't had proper sleep for weeks now.





That sucks... you insomatic, or somethin'? If it helps, I can sometimes get myself to fall asleep by breathing deep. It's a silly idea, I know, and I'm probably the one person out of millions that finds it useful, but I do pity you. Lack of sleep is comparable to, if not befitting of, torture.


And I'm gonna give this thing a try! It sounds interesting... I haven't had a lucid dream since I was a child. Thanks, Snowden.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

Charkonian said:


> If it helps, I can sometimes get myself to fall asleep by breathing deep. It's a silly idea, I know, and I'm probably the one person out of millions that finds it useful, but I do pity you. Lack of sleep is comparable to, if not befitting, torture.


Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Thanks for the advice.




You're most welcome, dude.


----------



## Snowden (Jul 17, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Hey, guess what! I had two lucid dreams yesterday using the techniques on www.ld4all.com =D Granted, they only lasted a few seconds each, but they that's good for my first attempt!!
> 
> And, lucid dreaming and out of body experiences are like.. completely opposite... Just to let your know. I'm not sure if I believe in OBEs, but I do know that by definition, they're completely different.



Congratulations!!! :3 
Too bad for me that I haven't had one for several months :\ I just haven't been trying lately, but I'm getting there.


----------



## Ruiisu (Jul 17, 2008)

I have Lucid dreams frequently during the day, I usually just lay down in my bed and think of something I hopefully want to do, or thinking as the whole world as furries.

As we all know It's a great way to build imagination.

I have a furry friend as well His name is Rowan, he's a Tiger. (I could'nt think of a name so a used animal crossing and a reference. heh.


----------



## Nargle (Jul 17, 2008)

I think what helped me a lot, is that I had to wake up early that day, and I went over to my boyfriends house. I was still sleepy, and I crawled into bed and tried to sleep. I remembered the HILD technique, which sounded easy because I got some scary results with the WILD technique (I tend to hallucinate very horrible images at night, probably due to OCD) and when I was tapping my fingers, it was very relaxing, almost like my mind went numb and all I could think about was poking my fox plushie's soft fur... I think it was a combination of HILD and the WBTB, because I had to get up and I went back to sleep. I was up for a couple hours in betwene, though.

I woke up really quickly with the first LD because as soon as I realized I was dreaming, I immediately tried to sit up. Instead I just flopped around in my boyfriend's arms and felt stupid XD Next time I did it, I sat there and breathed through my pinched nose, but then I started hearing my boyfriend whispering to me... It was very eery, as if the whispers were coming from my own ear, but they were his voice. They were long and exaggerated, like a stereotypical "ghost" type of voice, but what he was saying made me feel like he was in trouble and needed my help. I don't remember exactly what it was, but I jerked myself really hard to wake myself up, but when I looked over at my boyfriend, he was dead asleep. I asked him later, and he said he wasn't whispering. Weird. Anyways, I couldn't get back to sleep, so I just gave up, ended up draggin my boyfriend out of bed =D


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> However, you still managed to say nothing but the exact opposite of what I did back there, which, you understand, can be rather aggravating in light of all this.


 
That sounds like an emotional issue, rather than anything to do with our respective stances on lucid dreaming. I didn't "say the exact opposite of what [you] did," I have a view, you wrongly identified areas (you thought) I was confused about. I'm not confused.

I have ample experience with dreaming and consciousness, as well as some experience with lucid dreaming specifically, and my experiences are extensively corroborated by other reports I've heard and read from people. The vast majority of dreams are not of the lucid sort. Aside from lucid dreams, all sleep, including dreaming and nondreaming sleep alike, plainly appear to be devoid of consciousness.

Lucid dreaming appears to me to uusually or always (I don't claim to know "there are no instances of direct-from-wakefulness lucid dreaming,") arise during sleep. In which case, it occurs while one is not conscious.

The idea of asserting one's conscious will, or even trained responses (trained at the direction of conscious will) while unconscious, (as when a lucid dream starts) seems very much at odds with the evidence I have of what conscious will can do.

If scientists have found some grounds for saying that, despite recollecting all sorts of sensory and intuitive details about dreams, we have a specialized form of amnesia in dreams, for the experience of consciousness specifically, (the full awareness on ones's identity and intent, actions, and the self-regulating, self-checking coherence of these, which are plainly absent from the vast majority of my dreams and those of all reports I've heard/read), then feel free to link me to that specifically. But it's hard to imagine what grounds they could even find for such a remark.



> Addendum: Scepticism is a really useful thing in an by itself. It does, however, require a level of education and understanding on the matter you're addressing with it to be remain an efficiency-oriented tool that it is, rather than being an argument from ignorance.


 
And fortunately, I'm well educated and have argued not from ignorance but from a wealth of evidence. And it's your (extraordinary) claim, not mine. You shouldn't have too hard a time stating clearly how some kind of evidence has been found for consciousness in ordinary dreams, if that's what you think.

What you seem to be saying flies radically in the face of my own direct experiences and those of every report I remember ever coming across. The proposition that there's consciousness in ordinary (non-lucid) dreams is very like the proposition that I think I'm conscious right now, but I'm really not. Even if the astonishing evidence is out there, you should definitely know better than to think the few topical assertions you've made, make the case. I may or may not get around to carefully reading all four of your links-- but making the basic case is something you ought to do.


----------



## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 18, 2008)

Consciousness is an illusion, period.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (Jul 18, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Consciousness is an illusion, period.



Please don't start that bullshit.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 18, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> That sounds like an emotional issue, rather than anything to do with our respective stances on lucid dreaming.


Nice reading skills, genius.

I can't talk to you about this if you fail to grasp the basic terms (and then claim otherwise, good job), and I don't have the patience or indeed knowledge to explain them to you first-hand.

I'm not even arguing either way.



Furthlingam said:


> And fortunately, I'm well educated and have argued not from ignorance but from a wealth of evidence. And it's your (extraordinary) claim, not mine. You shouldn't have too hard a time stating clearly how some kind of evidence has been found for consciousness in ordinary dreams, if that's what you think.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming <- Obligatory first-wave link. Scientific study accounts, explanation.
http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html <- One of the available sicnetific studies confirming existence of Lucid Dreaming phenomenon
http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html <- One of the available FAQs
http://www.dreamviews.com/sleepstages.php <- Explanation of various stages of sleep

We also have about five eye-witness accounts in this very thread.

If you want to go against the eye-witness evidence, be my guest. Dismissing it completely, however, along with provided studies and possible evidence, is not acceptable in discussion. You also assert one does not experience a mixture of emotion and mental images we call a dream - and experience of such things implies a level of consciousness by most common definitions of the word - which goes against the very definition of a dream. All of the previous constitute either extraordinary claims or plain misinterpretations on your part.

I'm not going to argue with anyone here, I'm hardly an expert in the field. But the fact that you're doing something I typically only expect from Christian fanatics is a bit worrying.



Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Consciousness is an illusion, period.


That's a horrid misinterpretation.


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> An *illusion* is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation.


By the way, putting "period" at the end of your claim doesn't make you sound cool.


----------



## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 18, 2008)

LOL @ Wolf-Bone & Draco.

You guys take EVERYTHING I say too seriously. I guess I should be flattered. It took what, less than a half hour for something I said to make Wolf get into his usual stance of desperate overcompensating internet-badassery.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 18, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> You guys take EVERYTHING I say too seriously. I guess I should be flattered.


You failure to be funny might have something to do with it.

Humour is highly dependant on the context and viewer experience. Shifting the blame on the audience, however, implies clinical asshattery.



Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> It took what, less than a half hour for something I said to make Wolf get into his usual stance of desperate overcompensating internet-badassery.


...You know that doesn't work when your reply is three times longer and more bitchy than Wolf-Bone's?

Oh, whatever.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (Jul 18, 2008)

Draco_2k said:
			
		

> I'm not going to argue with anyone here, I'm hardly an expert in the field. But the fact that you're doing something I typically only expect from Christian fanatics is a bit worrying.



LOL, you're just *now* figuring out that Furlinkinpark is the kind of non-believer (of apparently not just religion, but damn near anything) that is as dogmatic as the peoples he's got so much beef with (and that's what it is - he's made it clear on several occasions he's emotionally attached to his beliefs/lack thereof) Well better late than never I suppose.



			
				Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:
			
		

> It took what, less than a half hour for something I said to make Wolf get into his usual stance of desperate overcompensating internet-badassery.



So the fact that I've debated with "consciousness/reality is an illusion" types many a time before, inevitably saw each one for exactly what they are (which is *always* people who want very desperately to believe there's no true reality/consciousness because that makes it easier for them to cope with how much theirs *sucks*) and because of this have a negative attitude towards the question itself makes me an internet tough guy?

By the way, unlike you, who on more than one occasion have called yourself hideous, I don't really feel I _have_ much to compensate for.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> You failure to be funny might have something to do with it.
> 
> Humour is highly dependant on the context and viewer experience. Shifting the blame on the audience, however, implies clinical asshattery.



Basically *this*.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 18, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> LOL, you're just *now* figuring out that Furlinkinpark is the kind of non-believer (of apparently not just religion, but damn near anything) that is as dogmatic as the peoples he's got so much beef with (and that's what it is - he's made it clear on several occasions he's emotionally attached to his beliefs/lack thereof) Well better late than never I suppose.


That would be a sad occurrence, though hardly unexpected.

All of us have emotional attachments to our beliefs though. It's not like I, or indeed anyone else, didn't go apeshit over it a couple hundred times in their lives. After all, beliefs are integral parts of our reality (or our perception of reality, anyway).


----------



## Wolf-Bone (Jul 18, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> That would be a sad occurrence, though hardly unexpected.
> 
> All of us have emotional attachments to our beliefs though. It's not like I, or indeed anyone else, didn't go apeshit over it a couple hundred times in their lives. After all, beliefs are integral parts of our reality (or our perception of reality, anyway).



Yeah, and I don't deny that I'm the same with my own beliefs though an integral part of my personal spiritual quest is striking a perfect harmony between logic and emotion. But when you're emotionally attached to your logic, well, what's going on there?


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 18, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> But when you're emotionally attached to your logic, well, what's going on there?


That made me chuckle.

Yes, interesting stuff here.


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 18, 2008)

Draco, for the sake of the conversation, please consider being a little less rude and dismissive.



Draco_2k said:


> Nice reading skills, genius.


 
That, also, sounds like an emotional issue, rather than anything to do with our respective stances on lucid dreaming. Meanwhile, genius isn't easy to define, but one common measure equates IQ of 2+ standard deviations above the mean with genius. With an IQ of 129, I'm 1 IQ point short of being a genius. Thanks tho'.



> I can't talk to you about this if you fail to grasp the basic terms (and then claim otherwise, good job), and I don't have the patience or indeed knowledge to explain them to you first-hand.


 
I understand the basic terms fine. If I didn't, you should have no great trouble saying identifying some misunderstanding of mine. You've failed to do so, so far.



> [Various extraneous linkage]


 
It's your (extraordinary) claim, not mine. You shouldn't have this much trouble stating clearly how some kind of evidence has been found for consciousness in ordinary dreams, if that's what you think. Clearly, you're not going to try.



> You also assert one does not experience a mixture of emotion and mental images we call a dream - and experience of such things implies a level of consciousness by most common definitions of the word...


 
No, that's not what I assert. Apparently, you refuse both to make your own points, and to read what I say.

Also, you don't have a very good grasp of what consciousness means. In conventional english, consciousness is a state of mind that implies full awareness of one's world, mental process, and self. In its strictest sense, it is a state absolutely exclusive of dreaming and nondreaming sleep.

However, it's also used to denote, as I said, full awareness of ones's identity and intent, actions, and the self-regulating, self-checking coherence of these. This is something we're aware of when we're conscious (though in fact it's quite fair to describe this experience as an illusion, much as demon has-- but that does go into a lot of literature that neither one of us may have time to review here in detail. If it interests you, though, there're a lot of popular science books written about neuropathology, e.g. one of my faves, Oliver Sach's "The Man who Mistook his Wife for a Hat."). And there's a huge range of reports that such experience is absent in ordinary dreams, with virtually nothing credible to my knowledge contradicting them, though naturally I'm open to more data.

It sounds like you don't know what you mean, nor what most people mean, by "consciousness." Also, credulity is, I realize, more fun in discussing lucid dreaming, astral travel, tarot reading, and so on, but some of us are more inclined to skepticism.


----------



## Charkonian (Jul 18, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> genius isn't easy to define, but one common measure equates IQ of 2+ standard deviations above the mean with genius. With an IQ of 129, I'm 1 IQ point short of being a genius



Are you positive the number is 130?...


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 18, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> LOL, you're just *now* figuring out that Furlinkinpark is the kind of non-believer (of apparently not just religion, but damn near anything) that is as dogmatic as the peoples he's got so much beef with (and that's what it is - he's made it clear on several occasions he's emotionally attached to his beliefs/lack thereof) Well better late than never I suppose.


 
You know, I realize I'm a sexy beast and people like to talk about me. But this is one of the dumber and more brazen arguments about the character of a person, rather than the subject at hand, I've seen 'round here.

If you have something to say about the subject, quit making claims about me you know you can't support, and contribute your views. Resorting to ridiculous arguments about a person lays bare your desperation for something to say.

Ad Hominem. Don't take my word for it, look it up.


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 18, 2008)

Charkonian said:


> Are you positive the number 130?...


 
Last I heard it was 130. Maybe I'm a genius now


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## Azure (Jul 18, 2008)

This has turned into a MY DICK IS BIGGER thread.  *claps*  Bravo!


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## Charkonian (Jul 18, 2008)

... uh...

I'm just a bit skeptical to that because... well...

The last I checked my IQ, it was 135... but that CAN'T be right, if what you're saying is true.

Maybe the scale I was tested under was jacked up, or somethin'... if that's the case, I wonder what mine would be if under the scale you use...


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## Nargle (Jul 18, 2008)

This thread has gone to hell, my friends =\

Oh, by the way, I have an IQ of 144, and I'm nowhere near being a genius. That's like 170, or somewhere around there. 130 is terribly average.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 18, 2008)

Uh, by definition, 100's spozed to be average. I wasn't trying to give everyone an excuse to declare their IQ-- rather, I was pointing out the silliness of ad hominem remarks about my intelligence.

But, maybe let's back to the topic, which is, lucid dreaming. Also, I think the reasons some are skeptical of willpower-based approaches to increasing frequency of lucid dreaming, have been well-explained.


----------



## Nargle (Jul 18, 2008)

'Kay, whatever you say =D Average person must be pretty damn stupid!

And yes, let's get back on the topic of lucid dreams. And not whether or not they exist. This argument is pretty silly.


----------



## xKagex (Jul 18, 2008)

I can't even remember the last time I had a dream. XP


----------



## Drakkenmensch (Jul 18, 2008)

Nargle said:


> 'Kay, whatever you say =D Average person must be pretty damn stupid!



Clearly, you've never held a job answering calls for computer tech support


----------



## Nargle (Jul 19, 2008)

Drakken- XD I suppose that could put me in perspective! Lol!


----------



## Monak (Jul 19, 2008)

Nargle said:


> This thread has gone to hell, my friends =\
> 
> Oh, by the way, I have an IQ of 144, and I'm nowhere near being a genius. That's like 170, or somewhere around there. 130 is terribly average.



Nargle the scale was modified about 4 years ago , it only goes up to 160 now. The test is now easy and far too many people are being labeled as genius.


----------



## Giorgio Gabriel (Jul 19, 2008)

AzurePhoenix said:


> This has turned into a MY DICK IS BIGGER thread.  *claps*  Bravo!



Isn't that basically what being a furry is about?


----------



## Nargle (Jul 19, 2008)

Monak said:


> Nargle the scale was modified about 4 years ago , it only goes up to 160 now. The test is now easy and far too many people are being labeled as genius.



But.. I took my IQ test like a year ago =\


----------



## virus (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't dream anymore. I go half dead and go where dead people go. Its really foggy black and a lot of people actually are not in there.

Oh and its not a dream because it looks the same every time. Dreaming is random, even lucid dreaming has randomness in it.

BTW . IQ has nothing to do with how smart you are. You can be smart in different ways, different skills. Saying your smart with a test based with guidelines is the same as someone giving you a picture and telling you to redraw it without tracing.


----------



## Azure (Jul 19, 2008)

Giorgio Gabriel said:


> Isn't that basically what being a furry is about?


Hey, macro dicks suck, would you want that in your ass?  No, says I.  I'd like to keep my internal bleeding to a minimum.


----------



## Beastcub (Jul 19, 2008)

i love my freaky dreams
i remember alot of them
i even have dreams based off of games, movies, tv shows and even books i have read
some dreams are like from my point of view some its like i am watching a movie
if i sleep in real late i get alot more dreams and i drift in and out of conciousness so i remember alot of it and i do mentall affect what i am dreaming and have the plot be what i want in my dreams.

i still remember dreams i had when i was VERY little, one was the house was full of tar and i was on the back of this really tall chair we had and my brother was on top of the kiddy gate in the door reaching for me and fell in, another the house was full of bees and there was agiant one with a crown in the living room that was so big it broke out the ceiling, another i dremt iwas on the potty and some one opened the door on me of which i then woke up and ran for the bathroom as i nearly wet myself (intereting that i needed to pee and that is what i drempt about). for some reason i still remember those 3 dreams very vividly even though i was like 7 at the time


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> Draco, for the sake of the conversation, please consider being a little less rude and dismissive.


Fuck you.



Furthlingam said:


> ...I understand what "Consciousness means"...


No you don't. If you did, the first thing you'd adhere to is the fact that it's a very ill-defined word.


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Consciousness* defies definition. It may involve thoughts, sensations, perceptions, moods, emotions, dreams, and an awareness of self, although not necessarily any particular one or combination of these.
> 
> In common parlance, consciousness denotes being awake and responsive to the environment, in contrast to being asleep or in a coma.



Point: the very experience of the dream implies presence of consciousness by most definitions or possible properties of the word. The only quirk you're relying here on is the fact that we commonly don't use the word to describe the state of a dream for ease of communication. Using it in this context however, is no different to everyone's favourite - addressing Evolution as "just a theory".

All in all, I'd ask you to follow the same advice I gave another participant here before: Don't talk about stuff you know nothing about.


Furthlingam said:


> It's your (extraordinary) claim, not mine.


Okay, I can put it in much simpler terms: Lucid Dreaming is a scientifically confirmed phenomenon.

You, however go on to say that it's not, even in light of presented studies and eye-witness accounts. This is not uncommon to, again, Creationist tactic of "Prove it to me in few words. Ha! You can't!".

This is not scepticism. This is an argument from ignorance.



AzurePhoenix said:


> This has turned into a MY DICK IS BIGGER thread.  *claps*  Bravo!


 Bah.


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 19, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Fuck you.


 
That the best you can do? I'll keep that  in mind from now on.



> Okay, I can put it in much simpler terms:
> 
> Lucid Dreaming is a scientifically confirmed phenomenon.


 
You and I weren't disputing whether lucid dreaming happens; I reported having had lucid dreams. Empty insults and completely forgetting the subject: your transformation into Ty is complete.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> That the best you can do? I'll keep that  in mind from now on.


What's this. Are you upset?



Furthlingam said:


> You and I weren't disputing whether lucid dreaming happens.


Yes we were.


Furthlingam said:


> "Having" a normal dream means remembering a dream, memory and consciousness are pretty distinct. The brain's normally in a very different state in dreams, and one marked by unconcsiousness and no activity very comparable to will. So will operating to change that state seems dubious.
> 
> Maybe it does anyway, but there you have the reason for the skepticism.


Then you blatantly changed the subject because you didn't like my implied definition of consciousness.

I believe I've already explained this quirk in my previous post.



Furthlingam said:


> Empty insults and completely forgetting the subject: your transformation into Ty is complete.


Delicious irony.

Heh. You think I put any emotional value in my previous "insult" or something, too?


----------



## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm in psychic communication with the little blue elves who live in my bellybutton, and anyone who doesn't automatically beleive me because everything I think is always true must be full of bullshit, doesn't know what they're talking about, has a miserable life without elves and wants everyone else to live miserable elfless lives too, is arrogant and probably an ol' worm-eating meanie. Also, I'm going reinforce my arguments with cuss words and to beat them up over the internet.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> I'm in psychic communication with the little blue elves who live in my bellybutton, and anyone who doesn't automatically beleive me because everything I think is always true must be full of bullshit, doesn't know what they're talking about, has a miserable life without elves and wants everyone else to live miserable elfless lives too, is arrogant and probably an ol' worm-eating meanie. Also, I'm going reinforce my arguments with cuss words and to beat them up over the internet.


Yes, I'm sure constructing an intentionally "hilarious" post would be a much more effective way to prove your point, whichever it was.


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 19, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> What's this. Are you upset?


 
Upset that you resorted to throwing a little fit when you have nothing more coherent to say? It would be an exaggeration to say I'm even disappointed.



> Yes we were.


 
So, you don't know what we were talking about. Your first clue that I wasn't disputing whether lucid dreams exist was my first post: where I claimed to have had them. The second would be, that I never expressed any doubt about them existing. That's just a fabrication all your own, Ty.

For the record, what we were discussing was: how effective particular techniques involving training and will, rather than sleep-cycle disruption, chemicals, brain abnormalities, and similar, would be in changing frequency of lucid dreaming.

If you can't keep up with the conversation, don't get mad. Just bow out.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> Upset that you resorted to throwing a little fit when you have nothing more coherent to say? It would be an exaggeration to say I'm even disappointed.


Attempting to look mature doesn't work immediately after taking things too close to heart, you know.



Furthlingam said:


> So, you don't know what we were talking about. Your first clue that I wasn't disputing whether lucid dreams exist was my first post: where I claimed to have had them. The second would be, that I never expressed any doubt about them existing. That's just a fabrication all your own, Ty.


So is such interesting comparison of any illustration for your level of maturity here. But that's beyond the point.

The point being - yes you were. Then you decided to nitpick on something or other for no good reason - which, would, however, still strongly adhere to your stance on the original topic.

You having or not having the experience yourself has about as much to do with anyone mentioning they were a Christian/Atheist once in a debate about religion. Not sure what makes you think I ignored the point (unless, of course, it's something you made up so it'd be easier for your mind to coup with the argument at hand).



Furthlingam said:


> For the record, what we were discussing was: how effective particular techniques involving training and will, rather than sleep-cycle disruption, chemicals, brain abnormalities, and similar, would be in changing frequency of lucid dreaming.


I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard of you to provide a respective quote if you were. The only sign of mentioning such matters came about 3 pages ago - as a mere a side effect - to the best of my knowledge.

If you can't keep up with discussion, or feel the need to deliberately misunderstand others, act wilful ignorance, change subjects, nitpick, rely on logical fallacies and resort to childish remarks...

"Hey there, Ty."


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Oh hey there.

In short: would you knock it off and just say what your problem with any of this is?


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 19, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Attempting to look mature doesn't work immediately after taking things too close to heart, you know.


 
You're better at projection than Ty.



> The point being - yes you were.


 
It wouldn't be hard for you to quote me if I was disputing that lucid dreams exist. You haven't, because I didn't.



> You having or not having the experience yourself has about as much to do with anyone mentioning they were a Christian/Atheist once in a debate about religion.


 
I have to really guess at what you're even trying to say here. But, the best that can be made of this bizarro remark is: You think the fact that I stated I've had lucid dreams has no bearing on my position on whether there are lucid dreams.

News Flash: Direct experience has a lot to do with what people think exists.



> I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard of you to provide a respective quote if you were [discussing how effective particular techniques involving training and will, rather than sleep-cycle disruption, chemicals, brain abnormalities, and similar, would be in changing frequency of lucid dreaming].


 
Right you are. In my original post to this thread, I said:



Furthlingam said:


> I'm extremely skeptical that any approach that didn't involve either chemicals or sleep pattern disruption could have any deliberate effect on frequency of lucid dreaming...


 
Which you quoted back exactly as seen here, and replied:



Draco_2k said:


> Clever. Technically, quite a few of the methods I came across involve either or both of these.
> 
> Though I'm not sure why would anyone doubt that meditation practices, training and pure will could be used to attain a better degree of control over one's consciousness.


----------



## Charkonian (Jul 19, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> I'm in psychic communication with the little blue elves who live in my bellybutton, and anyone who doesn't automatically beleive me because everything I think is always true must be full of bullshit, doesn't know what they're talking about, has a miserable life without elves and wants everyone else to live miserable elfless lives too, is arrogant and probably an ol' worm-eating meanie. Also, I'm going reinforce my arguments with cuss words and to beat them up over the internet.




Hahaha. Made my morning.


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> It wouldn't be hard for you to quote me if I was disputing that lucid dreams exist. You haven't, because I didn't.


Christ.


Furthlingam said:


> "Having" a normal dream means remembering a dream, memory and consciousness are pretty distinct. The brain's normally in a very different state in dreams, and one marked by unconcsiousness and no activity very comparable to will. So will operating to change that state seems dubious.
> 
> Maybe it does anyway, but there you have the reason for the skepticism.


 I'm not digging any deeper into the thread just to paint your nose with dirt though.



Furthlingam said:


> News Flash: Direct experience has a lot to do with what people think exists.


Silly me. I really expected you to conform the experience to your own scepticism and figuring it could be "just an illusion". Why can't it be?

...Well, because it's been observed and confirmed by a couple independent studies, for one.



Furthlingam said:


> Right you are. In my original post to this thread, I said.


Yes, that post. The matter did not come up any time after that (because you seemed to insist that we don't actually experience dreams as such?..), so what's the big idea?

...

It would be nice if we could stop this silly exchange. I'll ask again: What's the problem?


----------



## Furthlingam (Jul 19, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> I'm not digging any deeper into the thread just to paint your nose with dirt though.


 
So you're going to make no effort to show that I disputed that lucid dreams exist. Let's see. That might have something to do with the fact that: *you can't quote me back disputing that lucid dreams exist*. (Have you tried actually reading the thing you've quoted back twice now? I clearly do not dispute that lucid dreams exist in it.)



> The matter did not come up any time after that (because you seemed to insist that we don't actually experience dreams as such?..), so what's the big idea?


 
I didn't insist any such thing, and you know it. You'd be able to quote me doing so if I had, and clearly, you can't. I've made some remarks on other, tangential matters in this thread (like interpreting how demon misunderstands the term 'lucid dream'), but this idea that I've been saying "there's no such thing as lucid dreams" has been a fabrication of your own.



> It would be nice if we could stop this silly exchange.


 
I agree it's silly, on your part. You can always accept the blame for straw-manning me with your bizarre theories on what consciousness means. If not, my response in the words of a certain forumite who used all the eloquence to which you're entitled:



Draco_2k said:


> Fuck you.


 


Draco_2k said:


> I'll ask again: What's the problem?


 
With what? Are you seriously asking me to revisit everything I've said (and you've tried and failed to reinvent), so far in this thread?


----------



## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Excellent. Yes, I do ask you to look back and see what the hell you wrote in this case.



> "Having" a normal dream means remembering a dream, memory and consciousness are pretty distinct.


Here, you cancel out the fact that we *experience* the dream, attributing it instead to a false memory of said experience.



> The brain's normally in a very different state in dreams, and one marked by unconcsiousness and no activity very comparable to will.


Here we have an outright false statement. The REM-sleep stage implies brain functionality and activity nearly identical to that of a waking state.

Furthermore, having a dream itself implies different emotional states, visual, tactile and/or audible illusions, thought, self-awareness... Typical and/or possible components of "consciousness" itself.



> So will operating to change that state seems dubious.


Here is the conclusion you come to, to which I honestly see no precursor.

Okay... Noone disputed that component of "Will" is not present during a normal dream*. Furthermore, this is completely unrelated to Lucidity ([SIZE=-1]the state of being aware that one is dreaming[/SIZE]) to begin with.

But, much more interesting is the fact that you say that in the face of methods hypothetically used to *attain* said will (technically, "control") during the dream experience in the first place.


*I believe I left a remark that all components of consciousness are typically present during a dream, however, to differing degrees - with presence of constructs like Will typically being neglectable... Is that what this was all about?..


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 19, 2008)

*Re: Luigi Dreaming*



Furthlingam said:


> You know, I realize I'm a sexy beast and people like to talk about me. But this is one of the dumber and more brazen arguments about the character of a person, rather than the subject at hand, I've seen 'round here.



I guess you totally skipped my class on official multiculturalism in R&R then (probably because you can't dissect that topic as easily)



			
				Furthlingam said:
			
		

> If you have something to say about the subject, quit making claims about me you know you can't support, and contribute your views. Resorting to ridiculous arguments about a person lays bare your desperation for something to say.



1- You know, hard as it is to believe, I wasn't attempting to start shit with you, though I figured you'd take it as such. What I was really doing was telling Draco that, in my opinion, you and he have two totally different reasons for arguing over a topic like this, and so it's unlikely he will get what _he_ desires from discussing the topic _with you_.

2- I've _already_ contributed what I _can_ to the topic, and am keeping up with it in case I think of anything else to add. Preferably, that won't be fucked over by your attempt to steer this thread in a direction people who give a damn about *the actual topic* don't want it to go in.


			
				Furthlingam said:
			
		

> Ad Hominem. Don't take my word for it, look it up.



*snickersnort* Nigga you old as Hell! Hold up lemme look dat shit up on Wikipedia

I reckon you probably don't keep up to date with hip hop, so before you take _that_ as an actual dis too I'm referencing Soulja Boy and Ice T's ongoing professional wrestling angle troll war *beef nigguh, it's called beef* on YouTube.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Sigh; stupid, stupid drama.

---

Okay, on-topic: Does anyone here understand the difference between Lucid Dream and a Controlled Dream?...

(I'm not an expert, I'll just try to put down what I know - most of this stuff is also discussed in the sites linked in the OP)


*Lucidity*: The state of being aware that one is in a dream.

Lucidity can be exerted to a varying degree, just like most of the other... Attributes of mind/consciousness. For example, low degree of lucidity implies being aware that what one experiences is not real, however, not paying attention to things like your grandparents firing an M-16 right next to you. High levels of Lucidity are usually important to shifting the dream into a Controlled state, which seems to (possibly) naturally follows from fully realising that one is, in fact, in a dream.

This might be quite similar to controlling one's imagination during awake state. Lucidity may also, reportedly, incur shifting or meshing of wakefulness/dream states - such as being able to continue experiencing a dream at the same moment as processing visual/aduio input from the outside world as if one were, in fact, awake.

All in all, Controlled Dreaming may be classified as a type of highly-lucid dream, where person having a dream is able to shape a dream in a similar way we can control our imagination during the waking hours.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 19, 2008)

Yeah, I've been aware of the distinction for a while, but a lot of experts on the subject use the terms interchangeably so I've always figured that was the norm.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Glad we have that covered. If I recall correctly, Controlled Dream, by definition, is a type of Lucid Dream... Furthermore, it's essentially a logical continuation of one... Slightly confusing...

Ahem... Experts on the subject, you say? Would you happen to have a link or two?.. (No, really, I'm interested)


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 19, 2008)

Unfortunately, not off the top of my head. It's only been recently that I've started to seriously get back into this endeavour, but I used to read up on it almost daily. I've probably forgotten a lot of what I used to know, though this thread is jogging my memory. If anything you've probably been helping me out more than I could help you at the moment. For example, I said earlier that I wasn't sure if I _had_ a truly controlled dream (which I referred to as a lucid dream, swapping the terms as most people do) but it just occurred to me, thanks to you being a bigger stickler for terminology than me that probably _all_ of those were *lucid* dreams, just not true *controlled* dreams or dreams where I had limited and wavering control.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Heh. Yes, terminology is tricky that way - we do think in language most of the time, after all. Pretty sure I swapped the terms myself at least time or two here. Also, I believe at least two of the links in the OP address the difference between the two types... Somewhere... And what can be done to attain either.

Glad to help, especially if unintentionally so.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 19, 2008)

I had a pretty strange experience last night (actually the whole night was a strange experience.) As you probably remember from my inability to comprehend/speak English on the forums yesterday, I was dragging my ass through the day due to a sleepless night and fell asleep on the couch while watching the news, which resulted in me _hearing_ the news in my sleep and putting images to the words, and it felt like *I* was the subject(s) and speaker(s) all at once. Yes, I dreamed that I was Anderson Cooper, Barack Obama (BTW, Obama is as much in love with himself as the rest of America/the world and I for one don't blame him! Being Barack is fucking *orgasmic!*), John McCain, (that one was kinda awkward) some political chick who doubles as a prostitute/pop star/drug addict (other than being a chick, which isn't the first time, it wasn't really any different than living in Toronto) and a bunch of others. I've never experienced anything quite like it but I gotta do that more often when I'm sleep deprived, perhaps to some zombie movies or Don Bluth/Disney toons.

Well I'm not shitting you, I woke up *just* before my uncle was getting back. It was like I _sensed_ he was coming and woke myself up. What I _didn't_ sense was that he was bringing my cousin and a bunch of their friends, who were already drunk and it was clear that their intention was to get drunker, which meant I wouldn't be getting back to sleep for a while so I decided to join them. Now maybe it was because of the amount of alcohol I consumed and the different combinations thereof, which I won't go into detail about but let's just say if drinking/partying were the Olympics, in true Canadian fashion I came nowhere close to winning even a bronze but I sure as fuck blew the roof off my personal-best, but at certain points the night felt like a dream. I don't really know how to explain it other than it didn't always quite feel real. Not really in a negative way, although there were a lot of negative vibes I got off people which I had to keep reminding myself is sorta _common_ when people drink and that I probably shouldn't take any of it to heart and I found the more booze I got into me the less negatively a reception *I* got, which is _also_ common. But it just felt like if this were *any* other night, but the *exact* conditions were duplicated, sleeplessness, cat-napping and surprise beer bash with perfect strangers _and all_, things would be completely different. I dunno, I'm probably just still mentally recovering from the Toronto situation.

The most surprising thing was that I actually got a decent amount of sleep, woke up and was able to get back to sleep and dreamed *both* times, and quite vividly at that. Usually even when I'm on the patch, which I am (btw I've really got to get my head together and stop smoking on the patch. People have *died* from that shit) when I get proper bollocksed like that I'll sleep like a baby - for _a couple hours_ but never as much as I need, and don't dream/remember dreaming.

The only thing I did different that day was doing some simple pre-dream exercises like telling myself I'm dreaming / asking myself if I'm dreaming, sign checking and nose-touching and stuff like that. Oh, and Jagger-bombers. First time I ever done those. I didn't achieve lucidity, let alone control, but I think this is probably a sign that I'm starting to get the hang of it. If I hadn't got so smashed, who knows what would've happened (BTW just so there's no confusion, I'm _lamenting_ the fact I got piss-loaded, not patting myself on the back for it.)


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## Draco_2k (Jul 19, 2008)

Goddamn you people. My sleep schedule remains fucked in the ass since nearly last month, and all I get is NO dreams at all, headaches, a constant tired feel, lack of clear consciousness and overall crappy-ness.

For what I can make out of your post... It's actually rather interesting. It's a well-known fact that you can alter someone's dream by whispering something over to them, but... Oh. Would you call your first dream a lucid one? From the detailed description, I'd call it one, but personal experience would be much more important in either case. I think there's also some method linked to external sensory input but... Bah.

Technically, falling asleep in front of the TV can be one of the most unhealthy practices thanks to our wonderful mass media and subliminal messaging, but you might have saved on that one by keeping your mind focused on the data instead of letting it slip by.

Sigh. I'd like to comment further, but my typing skills are starting to betray me at this time of the night.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 19, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Goddamn you people. My sleep schedule remains fucked in the ass since nearly last month, and all I get is NO dreams at all, headaches, a constant tired feel, lack of clear consciousness and overall crappy-ness.



My sleep schedule remains fucked in the ass since *high school*. It's rare for me to have a decent night's sleep, at least starting and/or ending at a socially acceptable time without going through the day feeling jet lagged. As much as I want to learn lucid dreaming for its own sake, I think since good sleep techniques are such an integral part of it, it will have the added benefit of assisting me in my seemingly endless/fruitless quest to work out a somewhat healthy lifestyle.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> For what I can make out of your post... It's actually rather interesting. It's a well-known fact that you can alter someone's dream by whispering something over to them, but... Oh. Would you call your first dream a lucid one? From the detailed description, I'd call it one, but personal experience would be much more important in either case.



Well, I don't recall being actually aware that I was _dreaming_, but it _was_ a dream where I had a heightened level of _self_ awareness _within_ the scope of the dream. Except I wasn't aware of myself as much as aware that I was these people I believed myself to be.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> I think there's also some method linked to external sensory input but... Bah.



Yeah, there's this device that goes over the eyes and starts flashing lights upon entering REM, which iirc _is_ available to the public, but I don't know how much it costs and you can't exactly get it from your local Shoppers Drug-Mart, though in _my_ opinion, you damn well _ought to_ be able to. It's really sickening sometimes how it seems like they want the solution to *every* mental/emotional problem a person might have to come in *pill* form, and *only* pill form, when for some people all it would really take is a one-time investment in a product/skill that is renewable and has the added benefit of giving the person a feeling of accomplishment. Whether that's a device/training in the art of lucid dreaming, or a few cannabis plants you could buy once, learn how to grow and maintain and give yourself a few botany lessons at the same time you're coping with your stress/despair/depression.

But back on topic, I don't know of any other devices, though I guess something like a TV or radio would do the trick as well. I've actually slept through my alarm enough times to _hear_ it _in_ the dream, but it's always resulted in me waking up or turning it off in my sleep instead of going lucid.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> Technically, falling asleep in front of the TV can be one of the most unhealthy practices thanks to our wonderful mass media and subliminal messaging, but you might have saved on that one by keeping your mind focused on the data instead of letting it slip by.



I thought the general consensus was that every known subliminal messaging technique produces shoddy/unpredictable results at best? What news/media _does_ practice very well is basic psychology, but so do those zombie movies and cartoons I plan on falling asleep to next time I feel a power nap coming on. The thing is, if you _want_ to be affected, is it really a _negative_ effect? I'm not saying I want to be convinced via hypnosis that the mainstream media _isn't_ in fact Sesame Street for grownups or that conventional politics _isn't_ doomed to failure. Falling asleep to the news was an accident that produced a pretty cool result, but not one I see myself trying to repeat. But I *like* dreaming that I'm in zombie apocalypse scenarios, Don Bluth style cartoon worlds, Terminator style future wars and shit like that. It's just usually I'm lucky to get them and well, I don't like having to rely on luck.


			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> Sigh. I'd like to comment further, but my typing skills are starting to betray me at this time of the night.



You don't strike me as the drinking type so I _would_ recommend NyQuil, although from my experience it doesn't tend to work as well when you're not sick and even when it does work well, it's often akin to going to sleep drunk and waking up with a hangover.


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## baroncoon (Jul 19, 2008)

I've been a lucid dreamer since the mid 80's. As child I could remember many of my dreams and when I got in to college I started studying the subject avidly. While I'm under a lot of stress right now which is effecting my sleep, I can usually remember about three quarters of the dream I have. In fact much of the art I post to FA is derived from my dreamscapes.


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## Sequester (Jul 19, 2008)

Ooh yay, lucid dream thread. I kinda skipped to the end of the thread after the first few pages dissolved into arguments, so sorry if I missed something important 

I was a member of LD4all several years ago, and was pretty into the whole lucid dreaming thing for a few years... tried most of the techniques, kept a dream journal and so on. It was pretty cool but I got caught up in other life stuff and sorta fell out of the routines. But I still write down particularly interesting dreams and have a lucid dream here and there.

Usually I check to see if I'm dreaming by holding my nose and trying to breathe through it. That's always proved easiest for me because when I'm dreaming about un-earthly worlds, stuff like watching for text to change isn't solid enough evidence since in my dream-logic, if I'm in a strange world, it might be perfectly normal for text to change itself. Breathing through a plugged nose is generally a safe sign though 

Very few of my lucid dreams actually take place in a normal setting (in my room, at school, etc). I'm guessing that's because I'm more likely to question reality and become lucid when the dream is nothing like normal.

Anyways, I can't usually stay lucid for very long (I either wake up or forget I'm dreaming again) and I've only been able to directly control elements of my dream a few times and usually to a very limited extent. Not too good at that yet.

What nice though, is I rarely have nightmares anymore, because when something nightmarish happens, I almost always become lucid. So when some creepy dude starts chasing me or something, I just get frustrated that a perfectly nice dream had to turn into a nightmare and wake myself up.

I have an awful lot of end-of-the-world type dreams though, which aren't so much nightmarish as depressing. Just last night I dreamed that some strange cosmic accident was causing the earth to be pulled into the sun and I was watching all the water instantly vaporize and I was just hugging my dog and watching everything melt  (yet somehow my dog and I were fine... dream logic for you)

Anyways that got off topic a bit. But lucidity is pretty cool nonetheless.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 19, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Here, you cancel out the fact that we *experience* the dream, attributing it instead to a false memory of said experience.


 
No. I did not say "false." My usual diatribe. Fabrication. Not posting it 'cause you can't.



> Here we have an outright false statement. The REM-sleep stage implies brain functionality and activity nearly identical to that of a waking state.


 
The brain is in a significantly different state in (ordinary, non-lucid) dreaming, and neither will nor consciousness are present. Just as I said. REM sleep is quite distinct from waking, conscious activity.



> Here is the conclusion you come to, to which I honestly see no precursor.


 
It directly relates to my first post and comes from a continuous conversation you had with me based on that post: the distinction between the methods I find plausible, and implausible, for increasing frequency of lucid dreaming. 

I pointed out the basis of my skepticism re: will-only based approaches to greater frequency of lucid dreaming-- the huge apparent difference in consciousness between waking and dreaming. You made vague and peculiar claims that dreaming "implies consciousness," etc. We had an inconclusive disagreement over that, in which you were remarkably elusive about your views. I went into more detail about things that are evident about dreaming, and which I assumed most of which you would feel compelled, by the evidence everyone has, to agree to, and reiterated that this view was the basis of the skepticism I have about will-only approaches.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 19, 2008)

I've often wondered about the link between brain development and incidence of (unmanipulated) lucid dreaming; the great majority of mine were tied to a specific age range, and it seems like many of the reports I've heard from others place the dreams around the same ages.

There is, after all, the case of night terrors, predominantly ages 2-6. And there's the whole 5-to-puberty range thought to be key in language acquisition, often argued to have a developmental biological basis. I think my frequency of lucid dreaming took a nose dive at puberty, and I'm reasonably sure I didn't prior to the age of 5 or 6. Seems like a suggestive sequence to me, at any rate.


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## runner (Jul 19, 2008)

i have them about 1 or 2  a week and only when i just sit down and pass out, but when i find out its a dream i just try and wake up. now im trying to keep myself in the dream and change it.  ( not easy)


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## Nargle (Jul 20, 2008)

I started keeping a dream journal because I heard that sort of thing can get you into the routine of paying attention to your dream, and by extension, lets you have better control or something.

Last night I didn't have a very good dream =( I beheaded about a half a dozen or more old lawyers... It felt horrible. It obviously wasn't a lucid dream because I didn't choose to chop their heads off, and I actually felt like I REALLY killed them. I wasn't aware that it wasn't real. It sucked =(

Hopefully tonight I'll get lucky! =D **Crosses fingers** I only had the two in one instance, and I haven't been able to have any with normal sleeping. But I may just not be trying hard enough. Oh well, I'll try tonight much harder! =3


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## Charkonian (Jul 20, 2008)

I envy all of you. I'm probably going about this in the wrong fashion, but I haven't dreamt in quite some time. Or, if I have, I don't recall one damn thing.

It's probably because I only hit the sack when extremely exhausted, and I tend to just fade out in a few minutes, too enervated to try any tricks. I honestly don't see how this is so easy for people, hahaha. I'm TIRED when I sleep. Little energy to direct thoughts in any particular direction.

But I'm not deterred. My childhood encounter with this elusive dream type has me determined to seek it out a second time.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 20, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> My sleep schedule remains fucked in the ass since *high school*. It's rare for me to have a decent night's sleep, at least starting and/or ending at a socially acceptable time without going through the day feeling jet lagged. As much as I want to learn lucid dreaming for its own sake, I think since good sleep techniques are such an integral part of it, it will have the added benefit of assisting me in my seemingly endless/fruitless quest to work out a somewhat healthy lifestyle.


Jeez.



Wolf-Bone said:


> Well, I don't recall being actually aware that I was _dreaming_, but it _was_ a dream where I had a heightened level of _self_ awareness _within_ the scope of the dream. Except I wasn't aware of myself as much as aware that I was these people I believed myself to be.


Not lucidity then... Just a vivid dream.



Wolf-Bone said:


> Yeah, there's this device that goes over the eyes and starts flashing lights upon entering REM, which iirc _is_ available to the public, but I don't know how much it costs and you can't exactly get it from your local Shoppers Drug-Mart, though in _my_ opinion, you damn well _ought to_ be able to. It's really sickening sometimes how it seems like they want the solution to *every* mental/emotional problem a person might have to come in *pill* form, and *only* pill form, when for some people all it would really take is a one-time investment in a product/skill that is renewable and has the added benefit of giving the person a feeling of accomplishment. Whether that's a device/training in the art of lucid dreaming, or a few cannabis plants you could buy once, learn how to grow and maintain and give yourself a few botany lessons at the same time you're coping with your stress/despair/depression.
> 
> But back on topic, I don't know of any other devices, though I guess something like a TV or radio would do the trick as well. I've actually slept through my alarm enough times to _hear_ it _in_ the dream, but it's always resulted in me waking up or turning it off in my sleep instead of going lucid.


The wonders of half-free market.

Interesting device though. Sounds useful, though potentially annoying.



Wolf-Bone said:


> I thought the general consensus was that every known subliminal messaging technique produces shoddy/unpredictable results at best? What news/media _does_ practice very well is basic psychology, but so do those zombie movies and cartoons I plan on falling asleep to next time I feel a power nap coming on. The thing is, if you _want_ to be affected, is it really a _negative_ effect? I'm not saying I want to be convinced via hypnosis that the mainstream media _isn't_ in fact Sesame Street for grownups or that conventional politics _isn't_ doomed to failure. Falling asleep to the news was an accident that produced a pretty cool result, but not one I see myself trying to repeat. But I *like* dreaming that I'm in zombie apocalypse scenarios, Don Bluth style cartoon worlds, Terminator style future wars and shit like that. It's just usually I'm lucky to get them and well, I don't like having to rely on luck.


Current generation television is pretty much ripe with not only every subliminal messaging technique known to man and basically utter intellectual and emotional garbage, but if you're going to listen to it in a highly suggestive state... Well. Films might be not so back, commercial breaks and news, however...



Wolf-Bone said:


> You don't strike me as the drinking type so I _would_ recommend NyQuil, although from my experience it doesn't tend to work as well when you're not sick and even when it does work well, it's often akin to going to sleep drunk and waking up with a hangover.


Thanks, I guess.

Though I won't really be able to get my hands on this here... I'll look into the contents, Wiki says it contains "hypnotics"...



baroncoon said:


> I've been a lucid dreamer since the mid 80's. As child I could remember many of my dreams and when I got in to college I started studying the subject avidly. While I'm under a lot of stress right now which is effecting my sleep, I can usually remember about three quarters of the dream I have. In fact much of the art I post to FA is derived from my dreamscapes.


 This "Lucid Dreaming" thing seems really a lot more common/possible than I thought...



Furthlingam said:


> No. I did not say "false." My usual diatribe. Fabrication. Not posting it 'cause you can't.


 I did post it. For a man of your education and speciality, you sure seem to have an extremely poor grasp of the language, reader psychology or even plain eloquence most of the time.

 I'd ask you to re-phrase that statement as it currently implies non-existence of dream experience by conveniently placing "having" it in quotation marks.



Furthlingam said:


> The brain is in a significantly different state in (ordinary, non-lucid) dreaming, and neither will nor consciousness are present. Just as I said. REM sleep is quite distinct from waking, conscious activity.


I never said it's not in different state. I merely illustrated that you falsely attribute the lack of consciousness to this state by procedurally applying certain or most components of it to a dream experience. If you recall, "consciousness" is never used when addressing a dream not in because of lack of presence of it's components, but merely to address the difference between waking and sleeping states.

 I beg you to prove otherwise, if you can, or quit making empty claims. So far, you are the one making extraordinary claims here.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure why would you do this (unless it's some sort of complex). All of this could easily be solved by actually clicking a few of the links I provided previously.



Nargle said:


> I started keeping a dream journal because I heard that sort of thing can get you into the routine of paying attention to your dream, and by extension, lets you have better control or something.


 I would speculate it's because remembering a dream as such trains you in more easily accessing the parts of consciousness dreaming itself is closely associated with. Things like long-term memory and maybe other zones of subconsciousness.



Charkonian said:


> I envy all of you. I'm probably going about this in the wrong fashion, but I haven't dreamt in quite some time. Or, if I have, I don't recall one damn thing.
> 
> It's probably because I only hit the sack when extremely exhausted, and I tend to just fade out in a few minutes, too enervated to try any tricks. I honestly don't see how this is so easy for people, hahaha. I'm TIRED when I sleep. Little energy to direct thoughts in any particular direction.
> 
> But I'm not deterred. My childhood encounter with this elusive dream type has me determined to seek it out a second time.


Just about describes my experience.


----------



## Charkonian (Jul 20, 2008)

Draco_2k said:
			
		

> Just about describes my experience.



It's stupid, ain't it? Heh.

We're two peas in a pod. Maybe we can help each other out. Somehow. *Chuckles*

Also, wow, long post, dude.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 20, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> I did post it. For a man of your education and speciality, you sure seem to have an extremely poor grasp of the language, reader psychology or even plain eloquence most of the time.
> I'd ask you to re-phrase that statement as it currently implies non-existence of dream experience by conveniently placing "having" it in quotation marks.


 
You can't (or are pretending not to be able to) read. This is not my problem, except that you're lying about what I said. I didn't say or imply anything about the experience being false as you've said I did, certainly not by putting "having" in quotation marks.

Moreover: don't ask people toward whom your stance is "Fuck you" to cover for your (disingenuous) reading comprehension deficit. It's not that based on your attitude I expect honesty out of you.



> I never said it's not in different state. I merely illustrated that you falsely attribute the lack of consciousness to this state by procedurally applying certain or most components of it to a dream experience. If you recall, "consciousness" is never used when addressing a dream not in because of lack of presence of it's components, but merely to address the difference between waking and sleeping states.


 
If you agree it's a different state, you don't dispute my claim. Glad we've done with that: there are solid, self-evident grounds for doubting the efficacy of will-based approaches to increasing frequency of lucid dreaming.

The remainder is extraordinarily hard to parse. Fair warning, your lousy use of english here makes a lot of guesswork necessary. I'm going with this gloss of what you were trying to say:

"As I told you, it's wrong to say dreaming isn't conscious just because some elements of typical consciousness are absent."

There are outward signals of typical consciousness absent from typical dreaming, true-- such as apparent volitional control of the body and response to the environment. Those, themselves, do indeed constitute a meaningful difference, though, for this purpose. When I was a kid, my mother, a bed-making freak, used to chastize me for messing up the bedsheets 'excessively' while I slept. My response was irritable and incredulous: Mom, you don't seriously think I can control what my body does while I sleep, do you?

So there're definitely faculties that are simply down in dreaming sleep including the motor connections that would otherwise cause the body to act out actions taken in dreams, aka REM atonia, and why people occasionally experience sleep paralysis. Which gives the lie to your previous remark:



> The REM-sleep stage implies brain functionality and activity nearly identical to that of a waking state.


 
According to your own links, areas of the brain including the primary visual cortex and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex are inactive during dreaming. This is not "nearly identical." However, my argument wasn't limited to this most clearly evident of differences between ordinary consciousness, nor to details of brain physiology with which the two of us have at best, a layman's understanding.

There's further evidence, that goes to experience available to everyone of dream, and even to the very defintion of what we're talking about. There are key qualities present in waking consciousness and missing from the experience of non-lucid dreams according to my experience and the experience of everyone I've spoken with about it, which I've mentioned repeatedly: A sense of intentionality, awareness of self, and awareness of the self-consistentcy of these. They're *strikingly* absent from ordinary dreaming. Certainly, they're also absent from nondreaming sleep. Indeed, this experience is the very thing that makes it possible to distinguish between lucid and non-lucid dreaming!

Nonlucid dreaming, then, is like nondreaming sleep in this regard: the experience of volitional self-consciousness is absent. How do you imagine an act of intent/will/volition can operate in a state where-- by the very defintion that gives this subject coherence-- intent/will/volition is absent? 
Saying you can bootstrap yourself up, at will, into a volitional state from a nonvolitional one-- from ordinary to lucid dreaming, or from nondreaming sleep to wakefulness-- is self-evidently absurd. You can't will yourself awake when your will is not active. You cannot will yourself into lucid dreaming when will is not active.

How can you intend to dream lucidly when you can't intend anything-- the normal state of dreaming everyone experiences?

That's an extraordinary (indeed, a prima facie absurd) claim, and the fact that the transition takes place is much, much better explained otherwise-- sleep cycle and brain chemistry abnormalities.

Finally: this sense of self-awareness, intentionality, and the regulated coherence of these, very much is the meaning of consciousness in everyday speech, which is why I was right all along to refer to it as absent from nonlucid dreaming. If you don't really hold with the bootstrapping theory of lucid dreaming, then this entire argument consists of you being snared by your insistence on some esoteric technical term and your sloppy reading habits.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 20, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> You can't (or are pretending not to be able to) read. This is not my problem, except that you're lying about what I said. I didn't say or imply anything about the experience being false as you've said I did, certainly not by putting "having" in quotation marks.


 Then I'd suggest either rephrasing that nonsense or stop pretending it can't be easily misinterpret.



Furthlingam said:


> Moreover: don't ask people toward whom your stance is "Fuck you" to cover for your (disingenuous) reading comprehension deficit. It's not that based on your attitude I expect honesty out of you.


 ...You can be really thick, you know.

Tip: That was not an insult, was never meant to be.



Furthlingam said:


> If you agree it's a different state, you don't dispute my claim. Glad we've done with that: there are solid, self-evident grounds for doubting the efficacy of will-based approaches to increasing frequency of lucid dreaming.


This is a non-sequitir. Methods used to attain Controlled Dream also imply attaining presence of Will as a factor, which is then used to control the dream and your own state.

Noone suggested using Will to attain Will (I did on *one* occasion, but I did mention it was unsupported method) - instead, most methods rely on memory, awareness and thought to attain Lucidity and further down - control, and Will as one of it's components. Will may come as a factor during the waking state where it can used for self-hypnosis or somesuch.



Furthlingam said:


> There are outward signals of typical consciousness absent from typical dreaming, true-- such as apparent volitional control of the body and response to the environment. Those, themselves, do indeed constitute a meaningful difference, though, for this purpose. When I was a kid, my mother, a bed-making freak, used to chastize me for messing up the bedsheets 'excessively' while I slept. My response was irritable and incredulous: Mom, you don't seriously think I can control what my body does while I sleep, do you?


Fun fact: "sensations" may just as well refer to illusions, mental images, and plain eyesight. Same for hearing. Same for touch. I hope you're not going to pretend that we don't see ourselves (self-awareness) using all these in a dream, as well as maintaining the ability to think, or process resulting images.

And, yes, sleep paralysis is what stops our brain from flailing our limbs all over the place as if we were - oh - conscious.



Furthlingam said:


> There's further evidence, that goes to experience available to everyone of dream, and even to the very defintion of what we're talking about. There are key qualities present in waking consciousness and missing from the experience of non-lucid dreams according to my experience and the experience of everyone I've spoken with about it, which I've mentioned repeatedly: A sense of intentionality, awareness of self, and awareness of the self-consistentcy of these. They're *strikingly* absent from ordinary dreaming.


Noone disputed this either.

However, the definition of consciousness (interesting, you seem to refer to it as a fixed set) includes a wide variety of different phenomena. The word itself can be used to refer to any combination of the underlying components, and what you listed are merely few of them - while the rest (thought, self-awareness, visualisations - even if imaginary, etc.) are quite present.

I don't get it. Do you think "Consciousness" means just "self-awareness and intent" or that it somehow has to include these, no matter what?

...

I would appreciate it we could stop the playground-style "no u"  here and followed my advice from a few miles back: Just say what your problem is with me, or any of this here.

For example, I'll start: "I think that certain mind-related techniques might be used to induce or control lucid and controlled dreams." See? Clean and simple.


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## Nargle (Jul 21, 2008)

Dude, yesterday I had ANOTHER lucid dream =D

It wasn't cool or anything, but at least I did SOMETHING!

I realized mid-dream that I truly was dreaming, by explaining to my boyfriend's brother that he didn't have to get bitten by the dog since I could control what happens... After that, I was like "COOL! Lucid dream!!" and I made everything disappear. But then I was dumbfounded at what I should do, so I decided to start drawing squares in the air, and write little numbers. All the while with Zoidberg's (Spelling? Uh, the crab from Futurama) voice in my head making silly dirty jokes. Then I woke up.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 21, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Dude, yesterday I had ANOTHER lucid dream =D


I hate you.



Nargle said:


> I realized mid-dream that I truly was dreaming, by explaining to my boyfriend's brother that he didn't have to get bitten by the dog since I could control what happens... After that, I was like "COOL! Lucid dream!!" and I made everything disappear. But then I was dumbfounded at what I should do, so I decided to start drawing squares in the air, and write little numbers. All the while with Zoidberg's (Spelling? Uh, the crab from Futurama) voice in my head making silly dirty jokes. Then I woke up.


Yes, the higher level of lucidity, the higher are the chances you'll wake up - at least without training. If I recall correctly, that is.


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## Nargle (Jul 21, 2008)

Draco- Lol, sorry? =3 Have you tried any techniques on ld4all.com? It could help! =D

But yeah, I need practice. I gotta stop taking naps, though, or else I'll never get back into a normal cycle @.@ It is easier to achieve a lucid dream in the day time, however. At least for some people.


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## Snowden (Jul 21, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Draco- Lol, sorry? =3 Have you tried any techniques on ld4all.com? It could help! =D
> 
> But yeah, I need practice. I gotta stop taking naps, though, or else I'll never get back into a normal cycle @.@ It is easier to achieve a lucid dream in the day time, however. At least for some people.



What technique(s) are you using?


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## Draco_2k (Jul 21, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Draco- Lol, sorry? =3 Have you tried any techniques on ld4all.com? It could help! =D


I guess it could. At least if I didn't have any trouble sleeping in the first place.



Nargle said:


> But yeah, I need practice. I gotta stop taking naps, though, or else I'll never get back into a normal cycle @.@ It is easier to achieve a lucid dream in the day time, however. At least for some people.


 Or you could shift your naps to the middle of a night. Or maybe not - I'm pretty sure disrupting sleep patterns can be a rather troublesome thing without medical consultation.


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## Nargle (Jul 22, 2008)

Snowden- For my first two lucid dreams, I used the HILD technique (I think), the one where you relax, clear your mind, and softly tap your first two fingers like a piano. Usually accompanied with sleeping, waking up, then going back to sleep. I like to tap on my fox plushie =3 

But for the third one I just did a RC in the middle of my dream, realized I'm dreaming and became lucid, and started messing with stuff =D I dunno if that's a technique, though.

Weird thing is, though... Everything is always clear in my regular dreams, but as soon as I become lucid, everything gets fuzzy and it's like a constant battle to keep from slipping out of the dream world.. kind of chaotic...

Draco- A lot of the techniques help me out a lot with insomnia. I've got some anxiety issues, so my minds a constant buzz of worrying. I've lost a lot of sleep over trivial issues. Not to mention all the times I couldn't sleep because of depression. But some those techniques are very similar to meditation, which I used to do to combat my sleeplessness. But, meditation is a little harder then relaxing and mellowing out as described on that site. I definitely wouldn't try any of those sleeping, waking up, then going back to sleep techniques if I were you, though. You might cheat yourself out of a full night's sleep =\

But yeah, I wake up at 8:30/9:00 am every day, and I'm trying very hard not to nap or stay up past 1 am. Hopefully this aggressive, exhausting approach will set me back on track @.@


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## Draco_2k (Jul 23, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Draco- A lot of the techniques help me out a lot with insomnia. I've got some anxiety issues, so my minds a constant buzz of worrying. I've lost a lot of sleep over trivial issues. Not to mention all the times I couldn't sleep because of depression. But some those techniques are very similar to meditation, which I used to do to combat my sleeplessness. But, meditation is a little harder then relaxing and mellowing out as described on that site. I definitely wouldn't try any of those sleeping, waking up, then going back to sleep techniques if I were you, though. You might cheat yourself out of a full night's sleep =\


Oh, yes... Sounds just like me, too. Surely they're supposed to help but... Well, I wish they did.

It's rather hard to put as much effort into things when you're sleepy, and if you don't, you're gonna be sleepy still and... It's like catch-22 all over again.

Thanks though.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 23, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Then I'd suggest either rephrasing that nonsense or stop pretending it can't be easily misinterpret.


 
You can't (or are pretending not to be able to) read. This is not my problem.



> ...You can be really thick, you know.


 
Backpedaling from "Fuck you," I see.



> Noone suggested using Will to attain Will (I did on *one* occasion, but I did mention it was unsupported method) - instead, most methods rely on memory, awareness and thought to attain Lucidity and further down - control, and Will as one of it's components. Will may come as a factor during the waking state where it can used for self-hypnosis or somesuch.


 
Many of the suggestions seem clearly to me to imply will (for short) initiating something outside the passive bounds of the dream, while dreaming. Again: that's bootstrapping.



> I hope you're not going to pretend that we don't see ourselves (self-awareness) using all these in a dream, as well as maintaining the ability to think, or process resulting images.


 
I have no evidence that we think or fully process the image sequences of dreams, in any ordinary sense, during the dreams (and BTW, EEG readouts are not conclusive in this matter): much the contrary, my own experience and that of several of my informants suggests just the opposite. The experience of "what happened next makes no sense, which I didn't realize at the time, but what I percieved was...." is nigh ubiquitous, as is frequent mismatching even between emotional states and images percieved. It's particularly common to hear from people who are not accustomed to trying to invent and adhere to "deep meaning" interpretations of their own dreams, and from people reporting dreams more immediately after waking.



> Noone disputed this either.


 
Wrong. You disputed it. Repeatedly. As in the item I quoted to respond to (about which you in term say "noone disputed this either.") You said: "The REM-sleep stage implies brain functionality and activity nearly identical to that of a waking state." So. Wrong you are. There're a variety of huge differences that are obvious common knowledge. You've at minimum stretched "nearly identical" out of all recognizable shape, to the point of being laughable.



> I would appreciate it we could stop the playground-style "no u" here and followed my advice from a few miles back: Just say what your problem is with me, or any of this here.


 
Seeing as your stance remains, unmodified, "fuck you," toward me, this is more than slightly ironic. In the first place, if you thought there was a problem with my responses, your first action should be to say: "Sorry, furthling, it was bitchy and pathetic of me to respond 'fuck you' and you're quite right to object to it. If you will forgive me I will endeavor not to be a twat that way in the future."

Second, if you didn't want this to descend into childish nonsense, you'd've never invented nonsense about my position and stated it, as you did when you claimed that you and I have been disputing whether lucid dreaming happens-- a rather crazy position, considering you know I've asserted that lucid dreaming does happen, in contradiction to one of the things Demon said.

Third, I've repeatedly made my point. I needn't make it again. There are well-grounded reasons to doubt that anything aside from sleep-cycle-interruption and external-sourced or pathological abnormalities in the brain, increase the frequency of lucid dreaming.

Your problems following the conversation and acting like an ass with responses like "fuck you," are your own.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm not reading that. FYI.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 23, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> I'm not reading that. FYI.



Having just read it myself, you're better off for it, trust me.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 23, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> Having just read it myself, you're better off for it, trust me.


Phew.

Well, not quite the original reason, but I really should know better than to wage bickering quotewars after a hundred or so posts... So yeah.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 23, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Phew.
> 
> Well, not quite the original reason, but I really should know better than to wage bickering quotewars after a hundred or so posts... So yeah.



I told you, man, this guy is like the Cloverfield monster of srs discussion. It's better to just tits or GTFO than try to take it down with conventional weaponry. Just wait for some Otaku/Sonic fan to divide by zero and take 'em out _for_ us.


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## Furthlingam (Jul 23, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> I told you, man, this guy is like the Cloverfield monster of srs discussion. It's better to just tits or GTFO than try to take it down with conventional weaponry. Just wait for some Otaku/Sonic fan to divide by zero and take 'em out _for_ us.


 
I appreciate that you think I'm sexy enough that you're still talking about me, personally.

Unimpressed that "lalala, I can't hear you," works for you guys, but. :: shrug ::


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 23, 2008)

Furthlingam said:


> I appreciate that you think I'm sexy enough that you're still talking about me, personally.
> 
> Unimpressed that "lalala, I can't hear you," works for you guys, but. :: shrug ::



Look, if you truly believe you're right, that oughtta be good enough for _you_ at least, _right?_ *So what* if you can't convince nobody else?


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## Draco_2k (Jul 23, 2008)

Wolf-Bone said:


> I told you, man, this guy is like the Cloverfield monster of srs discussion. It's better to just tits or GTFO than try to take it down with conventional weaponry. Just wait for some Otaku/Sonic fan to divide by zero and take 'em out _for_ us.


But taking down difficult targets is what makes your aim better.

When the discussion descends to blatant manifestation of ego disorder, nitpicking, trolling, derailment or other kinds of bullshit however, it might be the cue to back out - yet still, even these cases can usually be amended if the other side is willing to cooperate and assume a new format, or by punching them in the face and moving on. In case of Internet discussion - just moving on.

Speaking about off-topic... *Ahem* I think I saw a site on the matter not mentioned in the OP - lemme see if I can recall the name.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 23, 2008)

Meh. I forgot what the name was. But here's another one: http://dreams.ca/lucid.htm


I wonder if anyone here was actually nerdy enough to read the Wiki article. It's full of interesting stuff.


> The first step to lucid dreaming is recognizing that one is dreaming. This recognition might occur in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, which is one of the few areas deactivated during REM sleep and where working memory occurs. Once this area is activated and the recognition of dreaming occurs, the dreamer must be cautious to let the dream delusions continue but be conscious enough to recognize them.





> The rate that time passes while lucid dreaming has been shown to be about the same as while waking. However, a 1995 study in Germany indicated lucid dreaming can also have varied time spans, in which the dreamer can control the length.





> In 1985, LaBerge performed a pilot study where lucid dreamers counted out ten seconds while dreaming, signaling the end of counting with a pre-arranged eye signal measured with electrooculogram recording.





> Schredl, also studied motor activity and found that deep knee bends took 44% longer to perform while lucid dreaming.





> In a study of fourteen lucid dreamers performed in 1991, people who perform wake-initiated lucid dreams (WILD) reported experiences consistent with aspects of out-of-body experiences such as floating above their beds and the feeling of leaving their bodies. Due to the phenomenological overlap between lucid dreams, near-death experiences, and out-of-body-experiences, researchers say they believe a protocol could be developed to induce a lucid dream similar to a near-death experience in the laboratory.


Well, I think it's interesting, anyway.


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## Nargle (Jul 24, 2008)

Draco- Those are some pretty interesting quotes =D

But.. were they actually doing knee bends for reals or in their dreams? If dreams.. how can they measure that..?

Anyways, yeah, there's a host of things you could try for insomnia, including different diets and stuff. One of my favorites, though, is laying in bed and trying REALLY hard not to fall asleep, and eventually you will. It's like reverse psychology. If you REALLY want to get to sleep, then you'll be up all night. But if you have to finish a project or want to see the end of a movie, you're bound to fall asleep pretty dang quickly =D Helps with the anxiety, too.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 24, 2008)

Nargle said:


> But.. were they actually doing knee bends for reals or in their dreams? If dreams.. how can they measure that..?


Well, lucidity by itself assumes a half-conscious (technically more than conscious... whatever) state, which should pretty much include control of the body as well as perception, rational thought, etc.

Though I kinda assumed they were talking about knee-jerk reaction, which is easily measurable.



Nargle said:


> Anyways, yeah, there's a host of things you could try for insomnia, including different diets and stuff. One of my favorites, though, is laying in bed and trying REALLY hard not to fall asleep, and eventually you will. It's like reverse psychology. If you REALLY want to get to sleep, then you'll be up all night. But if you have to finish a project or want to see the end of a movie, you're bound to fall asleep pretty dang quickly =D Helps with the anxiety, too.


Clever. I'll have to try that.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jul 24, 2008)

I wish I could be bothered to keep a dream journal the past few days.


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