# Sexual Orienation...Confusion?



## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Okay, honestly I have said before that I am gay. ( and have done gay things mind you ) But at the same coin I still am attracted to girls...and find some of them beautiful, but....I feel like I am not worthy of their liking. ( if that makes sense ) which is probably why I stay toward more guys than girls. But in my heart it just says whoever I love, I should stick with that person....This is the part that is confusing...so honestly does this even make me a gay? Or just a guy who has done gay things and is straight on the inside? I am honestly stuck a crossroads here....and I have attempted to start relationships with other men ( had one forever and then he passed, it still hurts but yeah.. ) But now I can't even begin to start an relationships cause I am so gender confused I really don't know what side is up or down. 

I don't know if any of that made any sense whatsoever, but I hope someone understood that.


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## TheGreatCrusader (Jul 13, 2008)

It's completely normal for anyone to be unsure about their sexuality. I'm unsure of myself right now, but I always try to keep in mine 'Whatever will happen will be best'.


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## Thatch (Jul 13, 2008)

Even if you like girls too, it just makes you bi. So what's the problem? 
If women are somehow daunting to you, just stick with men and it should be alright, no need to press yourself to anything. Do what your comfortable with and don't care about anything else. Because everything else is irrelevant if you don't feel comfortable with something.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> It's completely normal for anyone to be unsure about their sexuality. I'm unsure of myself right now, but I always try to keep in mine 'Whatever will happen will be best'.



I don't know...I mean I am the kind of person that likes to know what is going on when, and all that when it comes to my sexual/personal life. Just recently I have been so confused...and lost in my own thoughts I can't even begin to understand any of it. I am just so...uh...Such a train wreck.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

szopaw said:


> Even if you like girls too, it just makes you bi. So what's the problem?



Well, the problem is that, I don't know if people would like to date a bi guy. I mean I have done "acts" before its just that I don't know if this state of confusion is normal or not...Honestly, its new to me...I always have been so damn sure that I could bet money on it you know?


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

Could you be pansexual?


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> Could you be pansexual?


What is it? I haven't clicked the link yet.

Let me click it and get back to you with an answer.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> Could you be pansexual?



*Pansexuality* or *anthrosexuality* (_anthro-_ literally meaning human, human sexual) (sometimes referred to as *omnisexuality*[1]) is a sexual orientation characterized by the potential for aesthetic attraction, romantic love, and/or sexual desire for people, regardless of their gender identity or biological sex. Thus, pansexuality includes potential attraction to people (such as transgender individuals) who do not fit into the gender binary of male/female. Some pansexuals suggest that they are gender-blind; that gender and sex are insignificant or irrelevant in determining whether they will be sexually attracted to others.[2]
 The word pansexual is derived from the Greek prefix _pan-_, meaning "all". "All" is specifically in reference to human genders. In its simplest form, pansexuality denotes the potential of sexual attraction to all genders. It is intended to negate the idea of two genders (as expressed by _bi-_).
 Because _pan-_ refers only to human genders, and not to sexual practices or people in general, pansexuality does not signify automatic attraction to all people. Similarly, it also does not signify acceptance of all sexual behaviors, such as paraphilias (for example, incest, bestiality, or necrophilia) or fetishes. As with more common sexual identities such as homosexuality and heterosexuality, pansexuality refers to the role of gender in sexual attraction, and not to the role of sexual acts and behaviors.
 The adjective pansexual may also be applied to organizations or events. In this context, the term usually indicates an openness to the involvement of people of all genders and sexual orientations in said organization/event, and not to the pansexual sexual identity.












I reposted it here to read it and for others that might have a trust for links. is all.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> What is it? I haven't clicked the link yet.
> 
> Let me click it and get back to you with an answer.



I don't understand it too much either, but from what I'm thinking it means is that you're rather attracted towards a person's personality rather than looks. ^^; Which I think I am more like, but I still go gaga for some girls and some guys. So I'm not really sure.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Pansexuality does sound like it describes me, I care more about the person in the flesh than their flesh. I hope that makes sense lol




But even knowing that, for some reason I still confusion...Maybe I am just over thinking this a bit.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> I don't understand it too much either, but from what I'm thinking it means is that you're rather attracted towards a person's personality rather than looks. ^^; Which I think I am more like, but I still go gaga for some girls and some guys. So I'm not really sure.




Sounds like we are in the same boat, floating in circles @_@.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> Pansexuality does sound like it describes me, I care more about the person in the flesh than their flesh. I hope that makes sense lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



xD S'ok... We all do that. But I think it's good to question your sexuality and better understand yourself, if you know what I mean, cutie. ;3


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> xD S'ok... We all do that. But I think it's good to question your sexuality and better understand yourself, if you know what I mean, cutie. ;3



I do. Well, better to ask questions than not ask at all. I have always been told that.


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## Wolf_Fox_Guy (Jul 13, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> Well, the problem is that, I don't know if people would like to date a bi guy. I mean I have done "acts" before its just that I don't know if this state of confusion is normal or not...Honestly, its new to me...I always have been so damn sure that I could bet money on it you know?



trust me, just like guys love bi girls most gals will not have a problem wth you being bi. in fact for some of them it will be a huge perk.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Wolf_Fox_Guy said:


> trust me, just like guys love bi girls most gals will not have a problem wth you being bi. in fact for some of them it will be a huge perk.



Never really thought about it that way. Hmmm..


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> Never really thought about it that way. Hmmm..



lol, so true. xD most of the gals over in the mugshots don't seem to mind it at all, hun~


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Who the fuck needs this whole "orientation" malarkey anyway? Just fuck who you want, problem solved.


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## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 13, 2008)

There is no such thing as pansexual, since human gender is binary. I think I've gone over this before, for crying out loud. Bisexual. As I said before, if bisexual isn't cool enough a term and you feel the need to make one up so you feel more special, then you're too immature to be having sex in the first place.


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## Wait Wait (Jul 13, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> There is no such thing as pansexual, since human gender is binary. I think I've gone over this before, for crying out loud. Bisexual. As I said before, if bisexual isn't cool enough a term and you feel the need to make one up so you feel more special, then you're too immature to be having sex in the first place.



Dictionary thattaway --->

the whole point is that gender is irrelevant


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## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 13, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> Dictionary thattaway --->



Dictionary doesn't count if the entry is horseshit. The point is that you like guys and gurls, you're bisexual. No other terminology required.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Dictionary doesn't count if the entry is horseshit. The point is that you like guys and gurls, you're bisexual. No other terminology required.



okay... then explain to me this...

What if the guy or girl was blind? People can disguise their voices to sound different than they really do sound and the blind person wouldn't know the difference. Does that make them bisexual too? I mean, they're not exactly attracted to any one gender...

Also, what about the people who hate sex, like myself, who have been through some deep shit in their childhood that they refuse to sex with anyone but are comfortable being with one another regardless of gender. Is that bisexual too?

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just really curious.


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## Wait Wait (Jul 13, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> Dictionary doesn't count if the entry is horseshit. The point is that you like guys and gurls, you're bisexual. No other terminology required.



you can be bisexual AND pansexual, sure

but they are different things


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## makmakmob (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Who the fuck needs this whole "orientation" malarkey anyway? Just fuck who you want, problem solved.



I like the way you think. (in this particular situation, at least)


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## Thatch (Jul 13, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> you can be bisexual AND pansexual, sure
> 
> but they are different things



By any definition, if you're pansexual you're already bisexual

BTW, I agree with Draco


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## Wait Wait (Jul 13, 2008)

szopaw said:


> By any definition, if you're pansexual you're already bisexual
> 
> BTW, I agree with Draco



honestly who cares
goddamn


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## Wolf_Fox_Guy (Jul 13, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> Never really thought about it that way. Hmmm..



its all about thinking about it from a diffrent point of view. it really helps. now why dont you just ccalm down, go out there and igve it another try. belive me, no matter what happens, if you end up with a guy or gal theres a ton of folks who WONT judge you, us included.


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## Entlassen (Jul 13, 2008)

It's funny because recently I've also become horribly confused!


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## Thatch (Jul 13, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> honestly who cares
> goddamn



the ones who take on that topic?


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

> Dictionary doesn't count if the entry is horseshit. The point is that you like guys and gurls, you're bisexual. No other terminology required.



One word: Intersex.

There isn't a gender binary. Plenty of people are born between the lines, even if they're much fewer than those who are defined within the binary. Pansexuality includes these people, as well as transgendered and genderqueer people.

Sorry.

Anyway, yeah, sexual orientation is a difficult topic for me, too, and it's not just about deciding who to fuck, it's about deciding whether you would be happy being with a guy or girl for the rest of your life, and determining whether that can or will change enough to alter that decision and endanger your relationships further down the road. I've had this happen to me, and the inability to really keep my orientation stable has caused me untold numbers of headaches over the past few years. I've come to the conclusion that, barring the extremities in my swings, I'm generally pansexual, though at times I'm asexual, and at times I can't stand the thought of women, and then I can't stand the thought of men, and then I'm up for anything, and then nothing again. It's freaking annoying and confusing.


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## Furry? (Jul 13, 2008)

Personally it seems to me that the people who seem to be absolutely certain of their sexuality actually are lying to themselves. To be blunt, form relationships with people you want to and don't worry about it until it goes wrong. you might get hurt, but you'll learn about yourself and won't have that horrible confusion lurking over that is worse than a slightly bad relationship. I don't know if that's even vaguely useful to anyone but well, I tried.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> There is no such thing as pansexual, since human gender is binary. I think I've gone over this before, for crying out loud. Bisexual. As I said before, if bisexual isn't cool enough a term and you feel the need to make one up so you feel more special, then you're too immature to be having sex in the first place.




Thats not the point dude, what it is called is not important thou you seem to be stressing on that a lot. My problem is I am confused, and just don't know which is right for me, like I said I like knowing a thing for certain. Having both is just something I am trying to understand and deal with.

Make sense?


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## Arbiter (Jul 13, 2008)

If you do like girls, its ok hun. That just means your bi that's all, you can still be attracted to boys


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

If LoinRockerForever is anything like me, it's the fact that he can be attracted to both that's causing him confusion. Like I said, for me, it can change from day to day, and because of it, I've never had a proper relationship (not that I've had a non-online relationship to begin with - Go me) nor have I been able to even contemplate one. The question boils down to "Yeah, OK, I can find this sexy and I can find that sexy, but can I really love someone of this gender? That gender? Does it change too often for that? What if it changes after I start a relationship?" - It's not a matter of gay, bi, or straight, it's a matter of figuring out what it is you're comfortable with, and believe it or not, for most people, assigning a word to describe it makes it easier to deal with to some degree.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Runefox said:


> If LoinRockerForever is anything like me, it's the fact that he can be attracted to both that's causing him confusion. Like I said, for me, it can change from day to day, and because of it, I've never had a proper relationship (not that I've had a non-online relationship to begin with - Go me) nor have I been able to even contemplate one. The question boils down to "Yeah, OK, I can find this sexy and I can find that sexy, but can I really love someone of this gender? That gender? Does it change too often for that? What if it changes after I start a relationship?" - It's not a matter of gay, bi, or straight, it's a matter of figuring out what it is you're comfortable with, and believe it or not, for most people, assigning a word to describe it makes it easier to deal with to some degree.




Your in my head aren't you? Admit you mindtaker.

On a serious note, that is the problem..I find men sexy one day, and women the same day or the next.....I can't figure it out...Jeez.....But at the same time, I do want to know the person, and I find someones personality, and their person sexier than their body. ( Not like that wasn't confusing @_X )


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

You have to TAKE the mind. TAKE it. Oooowweeeeeoooooo...

Ahem. Yeah. So we're in the same boat, then. =D


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## EmpusaVampirebat (Jul 13, 2008)

Wow, that does sound confusing. o.o I only have an inkling of an idea of where you're coming from. I am female who has always been attracted to males. Until about 8 or 9 years ago. I find both genders applealing, but looking at my friend history, I have been friends with more guys than gals. And I have been with (my first ever long relationship mind you) my mate for over 4 years now. Who happens to be male. 

Anyways, I think you just should start dating, don't try to tie yourself down with just one member of a gender. Find what person makes you feel the happiest. Then you'll know.  Besides, just because you find both men and women sexy, doesn't mean anything. If you perfer sex with men over women, you're gay, if you perfer sex with women over men, you're striaght, if you like both just as well as the other, you're bi. 

I know, when you find that right person again, you'll be loved no matter what. I hope you find peace and answers soon, love.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> okay... then explain to me this...
> 
> What if the guy or girl was blind? People can disguise their voices to sound different than they really do sound and the blind person wouldn't know the difference. Does that make them bisexual too? I mean, they're not exactly attracted to any one gender...
> 
> ...



Shit... I suddenly feel like I'm being ignored... =_=;


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

Empusa: There are two different kinds of attraction that are rather exclusive to one another, and you described sexual attraction. What about emotional attraction? Can a person not be happy with a woman and enjoy sex with men more? Vice versa? Of course. Sex is an act, a purely physical thing that can either have meaning or not, depending on the circumstance. The point is, there's more than just sex to the equation. Personally, I think sex with either sex would be just as enjoyable, but how comfortable would I be with committing myself to someone of either sex if my attractions suddenly changed, as they often do? Sex is sex, but attraction is something different, something that seems so hard-wired for some, and yet so fluid, so turbulent for others. It isn't black and white, and if it were, it would be a whole lot easier.

Mukichan: No, that would make you asexual; Something I considered myself until recently. As for blind people, I don't think being blind has anything to do with it. People still have preferences regardless of their senses... It's something that the heart and mind form no matter what the situation. If that were the case, then a guy who gets tricked into liking a convincing transvestite is bi/gay, which is not the case.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Rules and terms are there to describe a given phenomenon, not the possible exceptions.


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## MauEvig (Jul 13, 2008)

Or you could be straight and finally realizing that gay relationships aren't as great and fulfilling as they were cut out to be.
Just saying though, everyone knows how I feel on the subject.


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

A quick question: How do you know how fulfilling a gay relationship is? Have you had one? How do you know that it's a choice for everyone?

Furthermore, why do you feel the need to say what it was you just said?


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## MauEvig (Jul 13, 2008)

> A quick question: How do you know how fulfilling a gay relationship is? Have you had one? How do you know that it's a choice for everyone?
> 
> Furthermore, why do you feel the need to say what it was you just said?


 
Probably because...to answer your questions...
Homosexual relationships are unhealthy and cause sickness. They also don't last as long as most hetero relationships.
No I havn't had a homosexual relationship, and I never want to either. Ick. Just the thought of being with another girl makes me want to puke.
And I know it's a choice because there are people who have actually gone back to being straight...I also know it's generally an addiction and often it can also be a spiritual thing as well.
And why do I need to say what I said? Because I feel a need to encourage someone to become straight. :3


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Christian-sense... Tingling...

Anyway, remembered something. Unless you're a full-grown adult in it's biological sense, I'm sure it would be possible for one's sexual preference and gender identity to fluctuate to a degree, especially during teenage years - after all, that's when all the related biological and psychological systems and constructs finally settle down.

There's a medical term for this period - but I forget which - and it can be set anywhere between 10-20 years, lasting for about half a decade or so - but, of course, there are exceptions even to that one (hardly unexpected considering current state of the environment... ahem).


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Homosexual relationships are unhealthy and cause sickness.


And hetero relationships cause BABIES. Said the pot to the kettle.


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

MauEvig: Ah, well, OK. Your facts aren't quite accurate, but your feelings are your feelings. The problem is, you aren't going to get anyone to change that way, and the most you've done thus far that I can tell is get people angry.

For some people, it _is_ a choice, but for the majority of cases, from personal experience, I have to say that it's not a choice to be straight, gay, or otherwise.

But you shouldn't have to justify your feelings by bringing up assaults against the subject. Just because some would do that to Christianity, for example, doesn't give you the right to do it to others. Remember, two wrongs do not make a right. Simply make your opinion known - Don't throw insults or hurtful words at the subject. The very reason why you won't ever succeed in converting someone from being gay to being straight is because you generally tend to start off with a comment that's, well, inflammatory. The only thing that's going to happen are things like what happened in the Sexual Orientation thread, and you have to admit, that wasn't really a very big success to your cause.

I have nothing bad to say to you, and I hope I don't come across like it. I realize you have strong feelings about homosexuality and atheism (the latter of which I personally fall under), but just charging in head-on won't net you positive results, as I'm sure you've seen. I just mean this to be friendly advice - Check your facts against real data, make sure not to be confrontational, and just speak your mind. You don't have to try and make a debate out of it. If someone agrees with you, they'll be more likely to chime in and support you if you don't start a flamewar, no matter whether you meant to or not.


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## MauEvig (Jul 13, 2008)

> And hetero relationships cause BABIES. Said the pot to the kettle.


 
That's what protection and the pill are for. Besides, as much as I despise things like babies it is still a natural occurance. Putting a dick up someone's butt hole is not natural. In fact, it can cause damage to the intestinal walls. Not to mention homosexual couples are more likely to pass on aids and other STDs than hetero couples.



> Christian-sense... Tingling...
> 
> Anyway, remembered something. Unless you're a full-grown adult in it's biological sense, I'm sure it would be possible for one's sexual preference and gender identity to fluctuate to a degree, especially during teenage years - after all, that's when all the related biological and psychological systems and constructs finally settle down.
> 
> There's a medical term for this period - but I forget which - and it can be set anywhere between 10-20 years, lasting for about half a decade or so - but, of course, there are exceptions even to that one (hardly unexpected considering current state of the environment... ahem


 
Well you are right about me being a Christian.
And the thing with teenagers is that they often tend to be victums of peer pressure and what have you and they tend to want to rebel and do whatever they want to piss off their parents and party and raise hell. Well I'm cool with partying with loud music as long as there aren't any drugs around, and of course no drinking until you're of legal age.
Teenagers tend to want to experiment anyway, but they're also more self concious I feel.
But, I'm an adult. 22 in fact and I'll be 23 this month.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Runefox said:


> MauEvig: Ah, well, OK. Your facts aren't quite accurate, but your feelings are your feelings. The problem is, you aren't going to get anyone to change that way, and the most you've done thus far that I can tell is get people angry.
> 
> For some people, it _is_ a choice, but for the majority of cases, from personal experience, I have to say that it's not a choice to be straight, gay, or otherwise.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen someone stay so cold in the line of fire since that time I tried to microwave an ice cube.

Most exquisite.



MauEvig said:


> babies it is still a natural occurance.





MauEvig said:


> Putting a dick up someone's butt hole is not natural.


You're funny.



MauEvig said:


> Not to mention homosexual couples are more likely to pass on aids and other STDs than hetero couples.





MauEvig said:


> That's what protection and the pill are for.


But, I really should take a break. It starts to look like you guys are looking me up specifically or something...


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## Suntiger (Jul 13, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Probably because...to answer your questions...
> Homosexual relationships are unhealthy and cause sickness. They also don't last as long as most hetero relationships.
> No I havn't had a homosexual relationship, and I never want to either. Ick. Just the thought of being with another girl makes me want to puke.
> And I know it's a choice because there are people who have actually gone back to being straight...I also know it's generally an addiction and often it can also be a spiritual thing as well.
> And why do I need to say what I said? Because I feel a need to encourage someone to become straight. :3


That homo relationships cause sickness isn't very accurate. Or at least I've never seen any research to back it up, nor is any of the gay people I know more or less sick than the straight ones.

That you believe them to be wrong and find the thought of being with another girl icky I have no objections over. That's your belief and none of my business. 

That people 'go back' from being gay isn't very uncommon, or that they 'become it' either. Such people are usually bisexual and go back and forth between finding males and females attractive. Sexuality is often quite fluid (no pun intended) for the majority of people, especially in their teens.
The ratio of female/male attraction would depend on which end of the sexuality curve they are closer to; pure homo or pure hetero.
For those very close to or at the end of the bell curve there's no choice though. They're fully homo or hetero. 

Hmm, but, if you really want to encourage people to be straight, remember that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. 
Ergo, don't bother to say that you believe it's wrong, that usually just get peoples defenses up.


Give examples of cute and romantical relationships you know of. Give tips about romantic movies, write or give links to romantic and/or erotic stories.
If you feel comfortable with it, flirt with guys.
And so on.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Save mental health - Don't argue with fundies.


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## MauEvig (Jul 13, 2008)

Are you calling me a fundementalist Draco? I highly assure you there are people a lot worse than me that are far more worthy of that title.
You should've seen my grandmother's reaction when I sang "Hell's bells" by ACDC when they had karioke at the park XD;

And...no way am I hitting on other guys. I'm strictly loyal to the man I'm with right now. 

As for examples of cute couples...well in the furry fandom a LOT of people are Sonic and Sally fans. (I'm only a SonSal fan in SatAM...in the comics I like SonMina) o.o Most furry cartoons promote heterosexuality that I've seen so I don't see why the majority of furries are gay. o.o;


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

That's actually kind of a weird concept, but I'm not sure that the majority of furries are actually gay. Bisexuality and heterosexuality seems to be rather dominant... Again, perhaps you need to check your data first, unless you have something that says otherwise (volumes and volumes of gay furry porn don't really count - porn is one thing, sex and sexual preference is another altogether)?

And as for Sonic, yeah, I've got a similar stance on things as a whole, though I haven't really touched anything Sonic in years. I hate Amy though.  Complete airhead.


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## Suntiger (Jul 13, 2008)

I don't think the majority of furries are gay actually.
Though there is a higher than average percentage of gays in the furry fandom.
That they are a majority is likely a misconception cause by a) the mentioned higher than average number, b) since they furry fandom is very accepting of any sexual orientation they dare be more open and c) angled and misinformed media coverage.

There's a site somewhere that include a poll that was first comprehensive look at the furry community. Let me see if I can find it.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

Wow, having to read this debate makes me want to scream...

You are what you are... Keep all insults to yourself... Live your life they way YOU want to live YOUR life! Who cares if that person is gay, or if that girl has a penis or if someone wants to be a communist!? @_@; Quit arguing! EVERYONE is right in their own ways and beliefs... But people shouldn't be jumping down each other's throats and telling them that they're wrong and you're right!

Why can't we all just get along already?? It's STUPID to fucking argue with everyone! When you argue, you lose! When you don't and just try to discuss things... you win!  Easy peasy!


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan: Thanks for echoing what I've been saying, it's good to know that someone else feels the same way about the subject. I'm a little sick of the huge number of arguments that spawn over this (I'm not referring to this conversation, mind you), and though I used to participate in the past, I now only really have the will to correct oversights in fact and try to steer things to the path of neutrality, where both sides are equal.


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## Suntiger (Jul 13, 2008)

Found the link. 
http://www.klisoura.com/ot_furrysurvey.php

The wiki article RuneFox linked to is also relevant.
And both can be of interest for people both in and out the fandom in general I'd say. 


This text from http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Furry_Survey
contains a note of interest concerning the fluidity of people's sexuality.


> *Sexual Orientation*  Among respondents listing an orientation, 42.3% described themselves as heterosexual, 17.1% as homosexual, and 35.9% as bisexual. These numbers mesh to some degree with those reported by the University of California (32.7% heterosexual, 25.5% homosexual, 37.3% bisexual); however, the percentage identifying as heterosexual or homosexual differs by a statistically-significant degree in both cases. No explanation is offered for this difference.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

The fact that some people still argue about whether some other people can stick it other people's pooper in supposedly most accepting and educated regions of the planet makes me really sad.

Can we get off this case, please?..

EDIT: By that I didn't mean "Discuss how all furries are gay". Well, at least it's a change of subject.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

Runefox said:


> mukichan: Thanks for echoing what I've been saying, it's good to know that someone else feels the same way about the subject. I'm a little sick of the huge number of arguments that spawn over this (I'm not referring to this conversation, mind you), and though I used to participate in the past, I now only really have the will to correct oversights in fact and try to steer things to the path of neutrality, where both sides are equal.



=_=; and it's sad cause everyone seems to still want to argue and bitch at each other~ We're all humans... it's not like everyone's different... We're all the same. We just walk different paths and live different lives.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> We just walk different paths and live different lives.


Of course. Problems start when other people think they can tell other people what path to go and how to live their life (See: Religion, Communism, FOX Media).


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

That's really the problem with freedom (specifically of speech)... Where does their freedom to speak their mind end? Shouldn't they have the freedom to say what they like, even if it's demanding? Do their statements infringe upon your freedoms? If so, in what way, and does that therefore limit their freedom to make such statements?

Freedom is something that you have to treat very carefully. It can easily be taken away, and you can easily be guilty of taking it from someone else. It needs to be used responsibly, and it needs to be used with the freedoms of others in mind.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Runefox said:


> That's really the problem with freedom (specifically of speech)... Where does their freedom to speak their mind end? Shouldn't they have the freedom to say what they like, even if it's demanding? Do their statements infringe upon your freedoms? If so, in what way, and does that therefore limit their freedom to make such statements?
> 
> Freedom is something that you have to treat very carefully. It can easily be taken away, and you can easily be guilty of taking it from someone else. It needs to be used responsibly, and it needs to be used with the freedoms of others in mind.


Freedom of Speech is a wonderful concept - unless you care about what other people say.


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Freedom of Speech is a wonderful concept - unless you care about what other people say.



reminds me of that whole "FUCK YOU!" thing and Freedom of Speech debate..


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

mukichan said:


> reminds me of that whole "FUCK YOU!" thing and Freedom of Speech debate..


Well, fuck me.


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:
			
		

> fuck me


;o; No!


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## mukichan (Jul 13, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Well, fuck me.



lol~ don't think you'd want me to. xD


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## Draco_2k (Jul 13, 2008)

Whoops, self-pwnage.

EDIT: I mean... Err... Dammit.


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

Oh, and as for Freedom of Speech, it's... Well... It's restricted under private domains, such as workplaces, stores, and _internet forums_, though generally nobody will care unless you get really rowdy.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> self-pwnage


Whew, TMI! D=


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Or you could be straight and finally realizing that gay relationships aren't as great and fulfilling as they were cut out to be.
> Just saying though, everyone knows how I feel on the subject.




Bull, Cause like I have stated in the last thread, four years and it only ended because of his death.

As for unhealthy, have you seen the south? Exactly. But putting bible thumping aside, meh. It just could be I am bi, and prefer men. But I have to say in the end men and women look the same to me in my preference, its just I guess I had more guys become attracted to me than women.


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## Arbiter (Jul 13, 2008)

I agree with loin on a point here, i think that i might be bi, but i am mostly attracted to men, and they all look the same to me, both with loin, most guys have told me that i am sexy then women. and i don't have a problem with it


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

> I had more guys become attracted to me than women.


You, too, huh? What is it with that, anyway?


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Runefox said:


> You, too, huh? What is it with that, anyway?



Honestly, I don't know. But I have to say, on an equal scale, I have looked at both with sexual eyes and loved it.

I can't really give you an answer to you for that, the first time I was hit on, I didn't do anything, dress, or anything that would consider me gay. I honestly like the way I felt after that and went with the flow.


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

I have to wonder why so many people seem to think I'm "cute" and such when there's no reason to say so in the first place. It's just a little weird to me, and I just call them crazy in return. XP


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## Arbiter (Jul 13, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> Honestly, I don't know. But I have to say, on an equal scale, I have looked at both with sexual eyes and loved it.
> 
> I can't really give you an answer to you for that, the first time I was hit on, I didn't do anything, dress, or anything that would consider me gay. I honestly like the way I felt after that and went with the flow.



it is weird, i mean alot of guys on here find me cute which is weird.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 13, 2008)

Meh, who doesn't like to be liked? I mean, its not like I was planning on being gay, bi whatever, it just....uh....happened?


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## Runefox (Jul 13, 2008)

I don't particularly like being liked because I don't like myself, which makes me question the motives of those who like me until I like them. =P


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## ExTo (Jul 14, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Homosexual relationships are unhealthy and cause sickness. They also don't last as long as most hetero relationships.



Homosexual relationships don't cause unhealthiness. Butt sex, and almost it alone (along with open relationships, perhaps, hypothesis - would need numbers), may. I'll remind you that it is entirely UNECESSARY for butt sex to ever happen, even between two males.

As for them not lasting as long, also keep in mind the simple fact they are still poorly regarded by society can be a debilitating mitigating factor. And this goes without saying the average age of gay couples is certainly inferior to that of hetero couples, and that longer relationships both a) are reached with, well, time and b) that older individuals are more likely to have found the "rare pearl". That biases the data.



> And I know it's a choice because there are people who have actually gone back to being straight....



The contrary would have been surprising as sexuality is not set in stone but fluid. You say you yourself had a crush for a girl once - if that's not a proof that homosexual *feelings* (not only lust!) can come and go (along with hetero ones of course), I don't know what is.

There certainly are gay people who have been straight but went back to being gay. The overwhelming failure of the ex-gay movement would back this.



> I also know it's generally an addiction and often it can also be a spiritual thing as well.



*Addiction*? Sexuality?

Look being so buried under sexuality it overwhelms your life can be considered an addiction, yes, but this is hardly dependant on orientation and in no way makes an orientation "an addiction".



> And why do I need to say what I said? Because I feel a need to encourage someone to become straight. :3



And in another thread you get all fussy when you think people want to convert others to being bi or gay. Yet you outright claim you want to convert people to straight.

Hypocrisy to its best.



MauEvig said:


> Putting a dick up someone's butt hole is not natural. In fact, it can cause damage to the intestinal walls. Not to mention homosexual couples are more likely to pass on aids and other STDs than hetero couples.


 
It can't be denied butt sex can cause diseases. Again though, it's not by attacking homosexuality the problem will be solved (we'd just transform physical health problems into mental health problems...) : educating people about the dangers of butt sex, which is basically the only activity homosexual couples generally have in greater quantities than hetero ones and that could cause more diseases, is a far better way to deal with it all. Attacking homosexuality is just barely scraping off the target, compared to a bull's eye when realizing that only butt sex can be problematic.

The only other factor I could think of is open relationships, which are probably more common among homo couples.

Also : you keep saying homosexual but fail to mention lesbian couples in that as well. Butt sex is certainly not a high prevalence among lesbians, so I must say I would like to see stats that compare lesbians to gays and to straights - if sexual-related diseases among lesbians are not significantly higher than among heteros (considering open relationships as well of course), then I'd add that to my earlier "unealthiness is almost entirely the fault of butt sex" argument.

Look MauEvig, I think you need a wake-up call. No matter how hard you'll try to justify your firsthand feeling that homosexuality is outright wrong, it's simply impossible to directly blame any societal problem on it and it alone. Unconsciousness, confusion, societal pressure and a general lesser network of help cause the problems often associated to homosexuality (occasional unealthiness, occasioanal inter-partner violence and less stable relationships come to mind). Identification of the basis of symptoms is crucially important, else we'll just end up taking away people's rights because we don't want to admit ourselves our first impressions were misled.


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## Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage (Jul 14, 2008)

MauEvig is clearly speaking from fear and disgust, not logic. Don't waste time trying reason.


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## Jijix (Jul 14, 2008)

I never saw the whole thing about titles. Definitively gay, bi, straight...
God dammit just find what you find attractive, bang what you want to, and enjoy life! There are as many different sexualities as there are people on this planet. Don't ascribe to needing a title like that. If you like a girl but you normally like guys, so be it, and vice versa. If you like a transgendered person and normally you prefer people born one way or the other, so be it. Don't worry so much. :3

Also, MauEvig -- I think you're in the closet. It's often the people most outspoken against homosexuality that are trying to deny their homosexual feelings. Maybe you need to sit down, and re-examine yourself, your values, and what you are imposing on others.
Or it could be jealousy. There are a lot of hot guys out there who prefer other boys. From what I've gathered, you're a girl. In that case, you again, need to re-examine yourself. 

I would never be so crass and pompous as to claim one perceived sexuality over another is better, nor would I quote stupid-ass statistics like "Omg hetero couples live longer." First, quote your sources, also yes, a homosexual relationship comprised of two males would not live as long, because males, statistically, do not live as long as females do. To outright say that one sexuality is better over another is preposterous, primitive, and rude. You should feel ashamed of that, and simply enjoy your own sexuality for what it is: Your own.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

Well, what _I'm_ worried about is what I want for the long term. My attraction fluctuates so much that, if at some point down the road I, for example, fall in love with a woman and then it decides to settle down as an attraction for men, what do I do then? What about the other way around?

It's like spinning a wheel.

But anyway, titles just make it easier to deal with in the mind. Without a word to describe something, there's a degree of added uncertainty as to what it actually is.


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## mukichan (Jul 14, 2008)

Jijix said:


> I never saw the whole thing about titles. Definitively gay, bi, straight...
> God dammit just find what you find attractive, bang what you want to, and enjoy life! There are as many different sexualities as there are people on this planet. Don't ascribe to needing a title like that. If you like a girl but you normally like guys, so be it, and vice versa. If you like a transgendered person and normally you prefer people born one way or the other, so be it. Don't worry so much. :3
> 
> Also, MauEvig -- I think you're in the closet. It's often the people most outspoken against homosexuality that are trying to deny their homosexual feelings. Maybe you need to sit down, and re-examine yourself, your values, and what you are imposing on others.
> ...



Thank you for saying what I was too scared to say. ^^


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## Jijix (Jul 14, 2008)

Runefox said:


> Well, what _I'm_ worried about is what I want for the long term. My attraction fluctuates so much that, if at some point down the road I, for example, fall in love with a woman and then it decides to settle down as an attraction for men, what do I do then? What about the other way around?
> 
> It's like spinning a wheel.
> 
> But anyway, titles just make it easier to deal with in the mind. Without a word to describe something, there's a degree of added uncertainty as to what it actually is.



I dunno, I sort of see sexuality as a nameless thing, and accept it as such. But that's just me. I'm comfortable with things being vague, because then I see them as free. :3


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## cYbEr_PaNdA (Jul 14, 2008)

Short thing is...make up your mind stupid....


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Short thing is...make up your mind stupid....


X3 That would imply choice in the matter.


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## Jijix (Jul 14, 2008)

cYbEr_PaNdA said:


> Short thing is...make up your mind stupid....



Lol, why? What rule says I, or anyone else, have to conform to a standard when it comes to sexuality?
As long as it's over 18 and in the same species, go hog wild if you feel you want to.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 14, 2008)

Jijix said:


> I never saw the whole thing about titles. Definitively gay, bi, straight...
> God dammit just find what you find attractive, bang what you want to, and enjoy life! There are as many different sexualities as there are people on this planet. Don't ascribe to needing a title like that. If you like a girl but you normally like guys, so be it, and vice versa. If you like a transgendered person and normally you prefer people born one way or the other, so be it. Don't worry so much. :3



I have come to terms with that fact now. I just am looking for someone to hold at night. To me it doesn't matter the sex anymore....I just don't want to be alone in the end.

Honestly, that is more frighting than anything else in my mind. You know?


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

I know _exactly_ how you feel. ._.


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## Kurtsa (Jul 14, 2008)

you know, when i hear furries on the news say things such as "furries are nicer people, and are very accepting of eachother." Its times like this that blow that out of the water, argueing and showing hatred over a small thing of whether a man is gay, straight, bi, transgendered, what have you. Its such a shame to see how true and how dark the fact is, furries are only human.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> Honestly, that is more frighting than anything else in my mind. You know?


Could be worse. Imagine you wanted to be just left alone.



Kurtsa said:


> you know, when i hear furries on the news say things such as "furries are nicer people, and are very accepting of eachother." Its times like this that blow that out of the water, argueing and showing hatred over a small thing of whether a man is gay, straight, bi, transgendered, what have you. Its such a shame to see how true and how dark the fact is, furries are only human.


 The more exposure the fandom gains, the less people there will be here who see the world through pink glasses. It's a natural process, I assume.

Though, to be fair, there was like *one* poster here who directly shunned buttseckz. For now.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 14, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Could be worse. Imagine you wanted to be just left alone.



I can't be alone anymore....I would embrace over baring people, rather than be alone another god damn second. Trust me...Its driving me crazy.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

Every group really has its low points. Furries can be the most beautiful people you've ever met, and the most low, despicable examples of humanity possible. The point is, "furries" aren't anything in particular in comparison to everything else.

People are people. As difficult as it might be to accept, we're all human.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> I can't be alone anymore....I would embrace over baring people, rather than be alone another god damn second. Trust me...Its driving me crazy.


Just a guess, but it sounds like your problems don't lie in the sexuality territory. If so, what use is it looking for answers there?


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## MauEvig (Jul 14, 2008)

> Also, MauEvig -- I think you're in the closet. It's often the people most outspoken against homosexuality that are trying to deny their homosexual feelings. Maybe you need to sit down, and re-examine yourself, your values, and what you are imposing on others.
> Or it could be jealousy. There are a lot of hot guys out there who prefer other boys. From what I've gathered, you're a girl. In that case, you again, need to re-examine yourself.


 
I'm also very outspoken about atheism but that doesn't make me a closet atheist. I'm offended that you'd even think of me as such.
Besides, I like guys. I feel that I couldn't have as fulfilling a relationship with a girl as I could have with a guy, and I've always gotten along better with guys. I love men, and often I never got along too well with other women. There are exceptions but most of the time I felt more comfortable hanging with guys.
The one thing was just a fluke and it happened in highschool when I was in a period where I wanted to be accepted by others, made ONE friend my own age, and got obsessed. That is where it ended. You guys said yourself that when you're a teenager, things go haywire. Well I'm an adult now, and I wouldn't turn away from heterosexuality for the world. I love being hetero, so why would I change it?
Oh I know what you're thinking, "well I love being homo so why would I want to change it?" Maybe it's you who need to sit down and re-examine yourselves and realize it's unnatural and wrong.
Also, it could be that I just keep getting a nagging feeling that it's wrong. Everyone here would probably think I'm a total nutcase but I believe that feeling is the holy spirit. The idea never sat well with me. And probably never would, entirely. I just feel like men and women were meant to be together...not separated into male groups and female groups of 2 pairs each.
Also, I'm not as bad as some people who want to shoot them down and kill them all.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Everyone here would probably think I'm a total nutcase but I believe that feeling is the holy spirit.


Thanks.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

> realize it's unnatural and wrong.


Not that I really condone the post you quoted, but this is the only problem I can find with your post just now, and it's too bad. This isn't a solid fact, and you can't say that it's the truth, no matter what you believe in as a personal belief, just the same as you can't say without a shadow of a doubt that Christianity is the truth, even if you feel - no, you know - that it is. The point is that a Muslim could just as easily say the same to you about Islam, and which of you would be right?

The answer is, of course, both of you, but neither of you have the right to say the other is wrong. Islam isn't wrong any more than Christianity or Atheism is, and the same is true for homosexuality. There isn't any definitive truth to defend a comment like "it's wrong", and that's why at this stage you're starting to sound snappy again.


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## MauEvig (Jul 14, 2008)

That's fine, but Jijix doesn't have to automatically assume that I'm gay just because I'm opposed to it. That is just as much a steriotype as the gay queens and lesbian butches. Oh gosh she's against it she must be a lesbian. Riiiiiight. 
If anything I'm being snappy because of those comments, and yes I'm seriously offended by that.
Someone once said "maybe you're bi" and I got pretty upset.
But even if I was, and I'm not saying I am, I'd still never touch a girl and I would remain loyal to the man I love. Aside from that, it'd be rather foolish for me to pursue a homosexual relationship when I'm perfectly happy in the hetero one I'm in right now. Not to mention the anti-gay drama. No thanks.
I still say it's a choice though, and if you go by the everyone's bi logic, then everyone CAN choose to be straight too.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

I understand.

The interesting thing about the choice theory is that new evidence suggests that we make most choices subconsciously, before we're even aware of them, though being a spiritual person, you may be quite sceptical of that, and I really wouldn't blame you. All the same, if this proves true, it lends more to the theory that perhaps it isn't a choice, even if you think it is. It's food for thought, and damned interesting.


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## Xipoid (Jul 14, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Maybe it's you who need to sit down and re-examine yourselves and realize it's unnatural and wrong.



Don't appeal to nature. That which is natural is not inherently good. That which is unnatural is not inherently bad. I don't believe I need to go on about how good and bad (i.e. right and wrong) are purely human concepts and are without consequence or value outside of a human society.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Homophobes:

a)Gays;
b)Christians;
c)Idiots.

Simple stuff.

Now stop trying to kill my faith in humanity - it's already dead, buried, desecrated and burned to ash.


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## MauEvig (Jul 14, 2008)

*sigh* I honestly don't know why people get the idea that I hate gays and I'm utterly afraid of them just because I don't support homosexuality and believe it's wrong.
I also don't get how people get the idea that I myself am a lesbian/bi because of that.
Honestly, I just rather not be labled. I feel there's a difference between being a homophobe and someone of my stance.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

Actually homophobia is the fear of gays. I don't think people assume as much that as you being insane and ignorant to a fair degree.

Just an insight.


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## MauEvig (Jul 14, 2008)

Insane I don't take offense to. I can be pretty wacky. I was voted one of a kind in my highschool year book.
As for ignorant...meh.
I've been labled a homophobe though. An inaccurate assumption since I'm not afraid of gays, I'm not afraid that if I give a gay a hug or something I'm going to catch the 'gay' disease or something. ; I don't act like it's some kind of a cooties thing.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 14, 2008)

People's inability to produce a five-cell neuron reaction never fails to produce interesting, if a bit sad, results.


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## MauEvig (Jul 14, 2008)

Inability to produce a five cell neuron reaction? What the heck is that? >>;


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## mukichan (Jul 14, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> I'm also very outspoken about atheism but that doesn't make me a closet atheist. I'm offended that you'd even think of me as such.
> Besides, I like guys. I feel that I couldn't have as fulfilling a relationship with a girl as I could have with a guy, and I've always gotten along better with guys. I love men, and often I never got along too well with other women. There are exceptions but most of the time I felt more comfortable hanging with guys.
> The one thing was just a fluke and it happened in highschool when I was in a period where I wanted to be accepted by others, made ONE friend my own age, and got obsessed. That is where it ended. You guys said yourself that when you're a teenager, things go haywire. Well I'm an adult now, and I wouldn't turn away from heterosexuality for the world. I love being hetero, so why would I change it?
> Oh I know what you're thinking, "well I love being homo so why would I want to change it?" Maybe it's you who need to sit down and re-examine yourselves and realize it's unnatural and wrong.
> ...



...

I'm sorry but please, quit trying to change people from homosexuality. Let them live their life. It's not like they're affecting your life in any way shape or form. We're not TELLING you to become a homosexual or anything. Just get over it and tell yourself that you're just going to have to end up living on the same planet with these people.

I'm sorry that we aren't like you. I'm sorry that we don't have the same beliefs as you. But as far as I know, why should we be like you? Why should everyone be like you? If everyone was the same, life would be boring. So please, leave them alone and drop the subject.

I know you're probably thinking "But at least I'm better than so-and-so and not running around and killing them." Who knows? Destiny doesn't know jack shit. Life doesn't know jack shit. NO ONE KNOWS JACK SHIT! You don't control your life, it controls you. And life makes you live how you should live for YOURSELF.

Bitch at me all you want, I won't respond back. Heckle, I don't think I'm going to come back to this thread. =_=; Too much arguing.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

Ah, you people are getting too angry over this. You're fuelling the fire! Your concerns are certainly valid, but your delivery needs a little work. ... Yanno? Don't let it get to you. The internets isn't really that serious business.


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## MauEvig (Jul 14, 2008)

As for Mukichan's comments I can certainly say the same thing. If no one on this forum disagreed with homosexuality then it wouldn't spice things up any now would it? It'd be borring.


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## Runefox (Jul 14, 2008)

Don't take this the wrong way; I don't agree with what you're saying, personally, but I think that everyone should take a step back and take a few breaths before it runs a little deeper and evolves into something I'll need a fire-retardant suit for.


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## CAThulu (Jul 14, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> I can't be alone anymore....I would embrace over baring people, rather than be alone another god damn second. Trust me...Its driving me crazy.



You know, I think Draco made a good point back there.  And I know what you're going through.  Maybe my age won't make a difference...brushing 30 here...I"ve been single for almost 10 years.  But you know what?  It's been filled with some pretty good people.  I have great friends in my life right now, and while I don't have someone to hold or hold me at night, I know I'm loved.

I could have been in a relationship many times over since I broke up with my ex girlfriend, but I haven't.  The right person hasn't come along, and I would rather be alone then in a relationship where the person made me feel like shit (or worse, beat the ever living hell out of me).  I've seen people in those situations (been in the former), and it's not worth it.  I"ve had to learn to be happy in my own skin, and that took A LOT of work.  

The same confusion applied here too.  I was wondering for a while, what the hell is wrong with me?  Am I attracted to men or women?  Why is it that what guys would find attractive in girls I don't like, or what women find sexy in guys I don't agree with?  The short answer is I'm picky .  The long answer is that I look at the interior and the exterior.  As I said to a coworker earlier today about what I like in girls, if they have everything I like on the outside but the light isn't on upstairs, then I'm not interested.

Do you know what I say now about being Bisexual?  I'm an equal-opportunist.  Your earlier question about 'what happens if you're dating a guy, and you get attracted to a girl' (something like that, sorry about the misquote).  Any one can get that way about anyone.  What if I was straight, and I was afraid of dating guy A because guy B might come along and I'll find him more attractive?  I think if you're in a relationship and you're head over heels for someone, it's not going to matter.  You'll admire the scenery but if you're with the right person, then the eyecandy won't draw you away.  

I don't know if that all makes sense; I'm regurgitating personal experiences here


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## ExTo (Jul 14, 2008)

Runefox said:


> Every group really has its low points. Furries can be the most beautiful people you've ever met, and the most low, despicable examples of humanity possible. The point is, "furries" aren't anything in particular in comparison to everything else.
> 
> People are people. As difficult as it might be to accept, we're all human.



This is the best post of this thread so far, and the best I've seen in a while. Entirely true.



MauEvig said:


> Besides, I like guys. I feel that I couldn't have as fulfilling a relationship with a girl as I could have with a guy, and I've always gotten along better with guys. I love men, and often I never got along too well with other women. There are exceptions but most of the time I felt more comfortable hanging with guys.
> The one thing was just a fluke and it happened in highschool when I was in a period where I wanted to be accepted by others, made ONE friend my own age, and got obsessed. That is where it ended. You guys said yourself that when you're a teenager, things go haywire. Well I'm an adult now, and I wouldn't turn away from heterosexuality for the world. I love being hetero, so why would I change it?
> Oh I know what you're thinking, "well I love being homo so why would I want to change it?" Maybe it's you who need to sit down and re-examine yourselves and realize it's unnatural and wrong.
> Also, it could be that I just keep getting a nagging feeling that it's wrong. Everyone here would probably think I'm a total nutcase but I believe that feeling is the holy spirit. The idea never sat well with me. And probably never would, entirely. I just feel like men and women were meant to be together...not separated into male groups and female groups of 2 pairs each.
> Also, I'm not as bad as some people who want to shoot them down and kill them all.



I'll agree with you you cannot be considered closeted just because you are outspoken against homosexuality. You did harbor feelings for a girl at one point, and that's enough for _me_ to say you have been bi for a moment there (I put accent on emotional bond even more than lust when it comes to defining sexuality), but I see no reason why disbelieve you when you say you are exclusively straight now.

But again. Homosexuality is not, in away way, shape or form, unnatural and wrong. You cannot, simply cannot, defend this argument. It's impossible. I'm hoping that in five years, you'll look back and wonder how you could ever have thought such a thing, because damn it's backed by *absolutely nothing* but the most bogus of insignificant excuses and biased interpretations of arguably precise numbers, gathered by organizations of questionable interests, which can be bended any way to fit any kind of argument at one's will. For example, watch me instantly twist the "gay relationships don't last as long" argument into something positive : gay couples do not fear breaking up because gays are freer in their interpretation of their emotions and are more capable to identify when feelings of love are waning than straight people, whom often spend their lives with partners they are not attracted to. See? I just made that on the spot. It's certainly wrong, but it _follows logic_, and yet I used the same damn numbers you did. It's subjective bullshit on all the line, but many would hear this and say "hey, it's true!" if it was next to a pretty graph and a long acronym represented a research group.

Plus, in what way would acting upon your feelings be unnatural? Is there not something more natural? A person with homo feelings whom doesn't act upon them is going against their natural emotions - _that_ is unnatural.

Also, to me... "nature" is bull. Human nature does not exist, IMO.

And finally, tell me, WHY is homosexuality wrong? Alternatively, WHAT is wrong? What is right? I want boundaries. You can't say something fits a concept if it has no boundaries.



MauEvig said:


> Not to mention the anti-gay drama.



*COUGH COUGH COUGH*



Le_DÃ©mon_Sans_Visage said:


> MauEvig is clearly speaking from fear and disgust, not logic. Don't waste time trying reason.



Mau's attitude in other threads has shown sufficient interest in reasoning and legitimate arguing for me to consider going on to be worthwhile.



Jijix said:


> I never saw the whole thing about titles. Definitively gay, bi, straight...
> God dammit just find what you find attractive, bang what you want to, and enjoy life! There are as many different sexualities as there are people on this planet. Don't ascribe to needing a title like that. If you like a girl but you normally like guys, so be it, and vice versa. If you like a transgendered person and normally you prefer people born one way or the other, so be it. Don't worry so much. :3



The funniest thing is that, ironically, that would make you fit the definition of pansexuality.

NOW, that is quite ironic considering you reject labels, and I do personality see "pansexual" as a bit of a novelty term used by people so they look cool (though with time the "craze" will surely die down, the term will cement and its definition will become clear and accepted), but regardless of all that, you basically just described pansexuality here, haha.

Also, I agree with you on an important point : people shouldn't "limit their attraction" (if that's possible at all) to their self-imposed label, but label themselves after the attraction they feel (if to label themselves they decide).



LoinRockerForever said:


> I have come to terms with that fact now. I just am looking for someone to hold at night. To me it doesn't matter the sex anymore....I just don't want to be alone in the end.
> 
> Honestly, that is more frighting than anything else in my mind. You know?



I understand that. Often I'm there wondering what's the point to life, why I'm trying anything at all, why I go to school, what I work for, why I see making comic books as a dream while it changes absolutely freaking nothing to anything whatsoever and doesn't give life any damn point.

Then I just realize... life doesn't make sense, but it doesn't _need_ to, and yes, while that nonense is hard to go through on your own, having someone else to cling to (and vice versa) can, at the least, limit one's apprehensions and doubts.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 15, 2008)

ExTo said:


> I understand that. Often I'm there wondering what's the point to life, why I'm trying anything at all, why I go to school, what I work for, why I see making comic books as a dream while it changes absolutely freaking nothing to anything whatsoever and doesn't give life any damn point.
> 
> Then I just realize... life doesn't make sense, but it doesn't _need_ to, and yes, while that nonense is hard to go through on your own, having someone else to cling to (and vice versa) can, at the least, limit one's apprehensions and doubts.



Life doesn't make sense, and it doesn't have to. I agree with that, its just It confuses me beyond belief. I mean, I guess am just too open in my sexuality I guess to pick a side....but its a problem cause I would like to know for certain what sex I like more......but at the same time I hate being alone and at this point I can't decide what sex I am interested in to start dating again On my facebook lol I have both sexes selected for my preference.

Meh, Maybe it just boils down to the type of person they are, that might be a bigger point than their sex.


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## Jijix (Jul 15, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> That's fine, but Jijix doesn't have to automatically assume that I'm gay just because I'm opposed to it. That is just as much a steriotype as the gay queens and lesbian butches. Oh gosh she's against it she must be a lesbian. Riiiiiight.
> If anything I'm being snappy because of those comments, and yes I'm seriously offended by that.
> Someone once said "maybe you're bi" and I got pretty upset.
> But even if I was, and I'm not saying I am, I'd still never touch a girl and I would remain loyal to the man I love. Aside from that, it'd be rather foolish for me to pursue a homosexual relationship when I'm perfectly happy in the hetero one I'm in right now. Not to mention the anti-gay drama. No thanks.
> I still say it's a choice though, and if you go by the everyone's bi logic, then everyone CAN choose to be straight too.



I'm using logic to make a valid argument. I was surmising.
Just as you surmise hetero couples live longer and othersuch tripe, I can surmise that you're secretly gay. See my logic?
I think you ought to stop being so concerned with what's in between someone's legs, and think more about who they are as a person.

Also, this is the Internet. If you're going to get all SRSLY OFFENDED and butthurt and stuff... Take a breath, go outside, and relax.


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## wolfmagik (Jul 15, 2008)

Jijix said:


> Also, this is the Internet. If you're going to get all SRSLY OFFENDED and butthurt and stuff... Take a breath, go outside, and relax.



Truer words have not been spoken. Whatever happened to the logical thinking that "If you don't like it, don't get involved?" It seems to me that more and more people purposefully put themselves in situations they don't like simply to complain/raise hell/cause grief on the people that are having a perfectly OK time. Hate to use the term, but I don't know why some people just HAVE to cause so much DRAMA.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 15, 2008)

wolfmagik said:


> Truer words have not been spoken. Whatever happened to the logical thinking that "If you don't like it, don't get involved?" It seems to me that more and more people purposefully put themselves in situations they don't like simply to complain/raise hell/cause grief on the people that are having a perfectly OK time. Hate to use the term, but I don't know why some people just HAVE to cause so much DRAMA.


Problem is, some people have an imaginary old man somewhere high in the sky that tells them to help people no matter what, because if they don't, he'll send you and them to a giant lake of fire after you die because he loves all of us so much. After all, "helping" someone is not the same as just trying to convince them you're right, is it?..

Fucking shit. Stop helping.


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## Bambi (Jul 15, 2008)

> Okay, honestly I have said before that I am gay. ( and have done gay things mind you ) But at the same coin I still am attracted to girls...and find some of them beautiful, but....I feel like I am not worthy of their liking.


 
It was hard for me to break the ice with women -- I think most of them thought I was just going to be like every other guy, jumping on them for a quickie. No, I would only do that with the men (I say that now but just never found someone who was interested in me sexually or perhaps just liked me for who I was).

When I didn't, I think most of my former girlfriends where shocked and thought that I didn't like them (because I wasn't sex glomping them.) I consider myself Bi also -- but mostly affiliate with the gay side of things because guys I readily like and girls I just don't understand. I'm not even brave enough to ask one a question, because I'm just real worried.


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## MauEvig (Jul 15, 2008)

> I'm using logic to make a valid argument. I was surmising.
> Just as you surmise hetero couples live longer and othersuch tripe, I can surmise that you're secretly gay. See my logic?


 
But then your logic is flawed and fallacious.




> I think you ought to stop being so concerned with what's in between someone's legs, and think more about who they are as a person.


 
As much as I'd like to do that, I couldn't because I know it's wrong.



> Also, this is the Internet. If you're going to get all SRSLY OFFENDED and butthurt and stuff... Take a breath, go outside, and relax.


 
And I havn't been nearly as SRSLY offended as some people in the other Sexual Orientation threads. 

And Exto...there are ways to argue why it's wrong...but since the majority of the people on here are atheists it wouldn't have any grounds because they're religious points of view.
Now, if an arguement were presented: Homosexuality from a religious perspective THEN I would think my arguments would stand ground. If you're an atheist, or if your religion doesn't believe homosexuality is wrong, then you're right.
I CAN however argue that right and wrong are NOT subjective, by giving the following example: is murder wrong? Is murder subjective? How many people here feel that murder is wrong? Let's say I got pissed one day and killed someone. But I didn't feel it's wrong. Should I not be arrested and tried for what I did? What's the difference between murder and war? In a way, there really is none, except one is mass killing and the other is preemptive killing.
Then there's man slaughter where it gets really complicated.
In any case, because you guys are probably atheists, pagans, agnostics or whatever, you have no reason to believe homosexuality is wrong. But the Bible clearly states that it is...far as I know so does the Koran for those of you who are muslim furries (I don't think there are though but I don't think it's totally impossible.)
So wrong or right it is clearly a religious argument that should be kept within the boundaries of religion.


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2008)

Time to jump into the fray a little, because I see a few little uncertainties in your argument that are nagging at me.



> I CAN however argue that right and wrong are NOT subjective


You just said that they were by proxy by saying:



> If you're an atheist, or if your religion doesn't believe homosexuality is wrong, then you're right.


... So... Which is it? Are Atheists and other religions wrong or right? Is right and wrong a subjective, or objective, fixed concept? Here's a nice way to find out: Make a survey. Ask people whether taking a pen from work is stealing... See how many responses you get. That should help prove that right and wrong are very much subjective things, since those concepts are man-made.



> Let's say I got pissed one day and killed someone. But I didn't feel it's wrong. Should I not be arrested and tried for what I did? What's the difference between murder and war? In a way, there really is none, except one is mass killing and the other is preemptive killing.


Well, there's a difference there. You would have imposed your will upon another person (in the highest degree imaginable - Death), which in my mind is serious on its own. Homosexuality is, usually, between consenting adults, and in the end doesn't cut short anyone's life out of malice like, say, sticking a knife in someone's eye. Love is a beautiful thing, no matter what form it takes, and while there may or may not be a passage in the bible to that effect, the major point is happiness.

Are the smiles on a gay couple's face a grand lie? Their fulfilment, their livelihood, their life? Are they any less capable or deserving of the same sort of love that a heterosexual couple would feel?

In the end, even if it's the work of Satan or temptation, and even if it goes against the word of God, don't you think that it should be God's judgement? Who are you to speak for God? Who is anyone to speak for God? Humans, even priests and the most virtuous among us, no matter how young or old, no matter which race or religion, all are tainted by their own agendas and their own beliefs passed down over thousands of years.

In my mind, we humans have no right to judge by God's word. We may judge based on our own laws and practices, but God's word is something that He, Himself, should enforce. What I'm trying to say is, try to guide people to the path that you believe is correct, but do not call them "wrong" simply because you believe it to be so in God's words.

Yes, I'm saying this as an atheist - Or rather more accurately, someone who doesn't truly care enough about what happens when he dies to bother believing in anything. However, having been brought up by a school system that was catholic all the way, and the things I've learnt over the years about it, I realize that there are a lot of Christians out there who really don't understand what it was that Christ gave them, nor the virtues he really taught. I believe he said something along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", to a crowd who were about to stone to death an adulterer, of all things to protect. Adultery is a violation of one of the _ten commandments_. That far outweighs Sodom and Gomorrah in my books. Specifically, I believe that particular commandment is located at Exodus 20:14, "You shall not commit adultery".


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## CAThulu (Jul 15, 2008)

Runefox:  Trying to stay clear of the arguement here so hats off to you for your post.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyone in favour of dropping this 'homosexuality is a sin' arguement?  Gods know i've heard enough of it in my lifetime to rehash the thing on the net.


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## Steele (Jul 15, 2008)

Okay, nobody flame me for this, it's just an opinion but here goes...

It's okay to be gay, it's okay to be straight, and it's okay to be bi...But never, NEVER be so confused that you break someone's heart.

I had known my ex-hubby for 6 years (He was at one point my best friend) before he came to America. He was "gay" at one point, but I "Turned him straight" when we had a relationship back in the days...I hadn't known him to be with another man on a serious basis since we had known each other, so when he came to the states I was ecstatic! We met up, hooked up, and I thought we'd be together forever on principle alone, at the least.

In January of last year he wrote me an EMAIL to end our MARRIAGE, and left the country two days later. Now he's one of the biggest faggots I know. (Relax, before anyone gets out of shape...It's a term of endearment, I <3 my manymany gay friends and mean no offense by the term).

The point is, don't be one thing one day and another the next. Don't drag someone you care for into a relationship if you are unsure inside what your orientation is. Be dedicated, nomatter which side of the fence you decide to eat the grass from...And above all, don't break someone's heart because you're uncertain...

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and - TRUST ME - that's the worst way to scorn ANYONE.

Other than that - *HUGS!* I hope you get it figured out! Just follow your heart!


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## Runefox (Jul 15, 2008)

CAThulu: Yeah, I'm trying to stay out of it, too, but when I see something wrong, I have to fix it. You know? 

Steele: Yeah, that pretty much sums up why I can't have / try not to let myself want a relationship right now.


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## EmpusaVampirebat (Jul 16, 2008)

I still love you confused people. ^^ I do hope, no matter what, all of you are happy. If you ever need an ear to talk to, I'm always willing to listen and try to help. 

PLease, no more fighting over silly things.


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## CAThulu (Jul 16, 2008)

Runefox said:


> CAThulu: Yeah, I'm trying to stay out of it, too, but when I see something wrong, I have to fix it. You know?
> 
> Steele: Yeah, that pretty much sums up why I can't have / try not to let myself want a relationship right now.



Runefox:  Same here.  If a point is raised that I really need to respond to (and believe me, I've come darn close), I will.  But it looks like other people are saying what's on my mind and there's no reason for me to add to it 

Steele: Amen.  I remember one girl in highschool that had a boyfriend and a girlfriend at the same time because she believed that because she was bisexual she could have both relationships because she wasn't cheating since both of her lovers were opposite gender  (are your eyes crossed yet?  My brain STILL hurts over that logic *L*).  The girl's boyfriend, a friend of mine, called me up, crying on the phone because this broke his heart.  One person at a time is a good rule to go one


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## MauEvig (Jul 16, 2008)

Ok y'know what I'm seeing here. The pro-homosexuality argument uses an appeal to love.
I don't really know if it's an actual fallacy or not, but I'd like to see other arguments besides the "love is never wrong" arguement. I'm not trying to argue for or against love, I'm trying to argue for or against homosexuality.



> Well, there's a difference there. You would have imposed your will upon another person (in the highest degree imaginable - Death), which in my mind is serious on its own. Homosexuality is, usually, between consenting adults, and in the end doesn't cut short anyone's life out of malice like, say, sticking a knife in someone's eye. Love is a beautiful thing, no matter what form it takes, and while there may or may not be a passage in the bible to that effect, the major point is happiness.


 
But if you steal something knowing what it is, that is also technically imposing your will upon someone else as well. Let's say you steal someone's identity and their money. You think that's wrong or that it's subjective too?
Why then is it that it's automatically wrong to kill someone, and not wrong to steal?
But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.
The point I was trying to make was that I was trying to look into the mind of the atheist. Atheists can't really have a basis of what right and wrong is because nothing can really tell them except themselves, and that in my opinion is invalid. They can't argue homosexuality is wrong. I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality. Morality then would also be subjective.
But seriously this isn't about right and wrong, it's about whether or not homosexuality is wrong. It's not an ENTIRELY different subject matter, but right and wrong deal with a wider spectrum than merely homosexuality.
So what I'm saying is, since atheists don't have a true point of view regarding right and wrong and morality, then they can't really say that homosexuality is wrong or right because right and wrong are subjective.
In fact, I'm actually trying to point out the errors of atheist philosophy. You can't pick and choose what is right or wrong. Either it is, or it isn't. There's no such thing as a 'gray area.' And this is also why Christian philosophy, which trully distinguishes right and wrong, as more accurate in a logical sense.


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## CAThulu (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Ok y'know what I'm seeing here. The pro-homosexuality argument uses an appeal to love.
> I don't really know if it's an actual fallacy or not, but I'd like to see other arguments besides the "love is never wrong" arguement. I'm not trying to argue for or against love, I'm trying to argue for or against homosexuality.



Well, generally relationships, ideally, are based on love.  But it's beside the 'love is never wrong' arguement.  It's also about how one person cannot dictate how a complete stranger choses how to live his or her own life  based on ethics, _as long as it does not harm anyone else_.  I've had this discussion with people, who claim that if homosexuality is legalized, then why not bestiality or pedophilia.  the short answer to this is simple, the latter are not based on consensuality.  if two adults enter a consensual, sexual relationship with one another it's no one's business but their own.  I am excluding of course, the unusual situations such as abuse, since that is something that anyone is at risk to in a relationship, be it hetero or homosexual in nature.

it has also been documented that animals in nature have had same sex pairings, such as deer.  And while the bible states that we are man, and not animals, we are all still driven by the same impulses: to feed, sleep, and procreate (in both creating offspring and in the sexual drive)



MauEvig said:


> But if you steal something knowing what it is, that is also technically imposing your will upon someone else as well. Let's say you steal someone's identity and their money. You think that's wrong or that it's subjective too?
> Why then is it that it's automatically wrong to kill someone, and not wrong to steal?
> But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
> But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.
> ...



Have you ever heard of a 'red herring'?  It describes a tactic that is used to draw a person's attention away from the original theme of the arguement.  Comparing murder and homosexuality is frankly like comparing apples and elephants.  Not even in the same ballpark.   Murder is taking someone's life away from an individual.  The only example I can think of where someone can impose their sexuality on another is through rape, and we all know that heinous act crosses all borders, races, creeds, and orientation.

The idea that athiests do not have a true point of view regarding morality does not take into account the individual's need for self preservation and consideration for others.  That statement pretty much compares athiests to amoeba, which I assure you they are not.  Athiests, like anyone, live in a society bound by rules and law (that are not all created through religious beliefs...show me the bible verse about parking meter bylaws and I'll show you a three dollar bill ).  Ethics are not bound by whether or not you have a particular religious creed (in this case I'm assuming you mean the Bible).  It is part of what is commonly known as the Collective Unconscious of the human species.  It is where we share our commonality as a species, and where the golden rule comes from ("do unto others....").  It's why the same ethical laws have cropped up across the globe no matter where you go.  We also have a conscious in our Ego that ideally creates a stop-gap against letting our instincts take over and getting us into trouble.  In a healthy individual, the ego rules the id, that is to say the consciousness rules the instinct.  A great way I heard this put is that the id tells you it's hungry, but it's the ego that can use the can opener.     that is not to say that we should ignore our id.  without it, we would not have the instinctual drives that we need to survive.

I hate to break it to you kiddo, but you did not look through an athiest's eyes.  You looked at an athiest's stance through Christian eyes.  I've read your posts and honestly I can't see you stepping back and even trying to comprehend where others are coming from, and worse still you are imposing your own sense of morality on others who do not share your views by using misinformation and, frankly, some very insulting insinuation.

I say quit while you're ahead.  You'll be better off for it. :grin:

Blessed be,


CAT


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## Xipoid (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> But if you steal something knowing what it is, that is also technically imposing your will upon someone else as well. Let's say you steal someone's identity and their money. You think that's wrong or that it's subjective too?
> Why then is it that it's automatically wrong to kill someone, and not wrong to steal?
> But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
> But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.
> ...




 1. Poisoning the well will not help you here.

2. Christian philosophy (should it exist) is not more accurate in a logical sense. In reality, it is the opposite of logical because you assert a conclusion and support it with a _completely unsupported and unaccredited book based off circular logic, question begging, and appeal to consequence_.

3. If killing is automatically wrong, then so is killing in self-defense.

4. Morality is subjective. Just look at abortion debates.

5. Murder is objective because it has a well-defined, clear definition ("the unlawful killing of another human"); however, how right/wrong murder is subjective. See: Intent and circumstance

6. Attempting to look into the mind of an atheist (or anyone else) will just lead to straw men and/or ad hominems, unless you have telepathy.

7. Right and wrong's subjectivity is the argument here. You are attempting to prove why homosexuality is wrong. Your opponents are trying to prove why right and wrong are subjective, which would make your argument inconsequential and invalid. You cannot simply ignore/dismiss their argument without proper reason unless you wish to be ignored/dismissed yourself.



MauEvig said:


> Atheists can't really have a basis of what right and wrong is because nothing can really tell them except themselves, and that in my opinion is invalid. They can't argue homosexuality is wrong. I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality.



8. Please cite credible evidence for this.


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## MauEvig (Jul 16, 2008)

> I say quit while you're ahead. You'll be better off for it. :grin:


 
Why should I quit while I'm ahead? Anyway I wasn't trying to create a Red Herring. I was actually pointing out that the arguement was getting destracted and that we should focus on the initial argument. If you would read what I said carefully you would've seen that I also said "but this is for another argument." I was implying that we should take the morality/right and wrong argument to another thread.
Not that I'm much better, I only really skimmed through most of what you said (because I'm tired at this point...xx; )
However, I wasn't creating a Red Herring because if I was, I'd be intentionally trying to get people to stray from the argument, in reality I was trying to point out that we WERE straying from the argument and should get back on topic. I was also suggesting that we shouldn't use the love argument, because anyone can use the love argument. I just wanted to point out that right and wrong was neither objective nor subjective, but once again like I said:



> But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
> *But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.*


 


> I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality. Morality then would also be subjective.
> *But seriously this isn't about right and wrong, it's about whether or not homosexuality is wrong.* It's not an ENTIRELY different subject matter, but right and wrong deal with a wider spectrum than merely homosexuality.


 
You get what I was trying to say now? Or do I need to do some bird hunting?

I wasn't comparing Homosexuality to Murder, I was using Murder as an example of how Right and Wrong aren't subjective. Then I realized this was a "right and wrong" argument and not necessarily a "homosexuality is wrong" argument. So with that said, let's keep the focus on that from now on whether "homosexuality is wrong or not" then.
And for now I'm out because I'm dead tired xx;


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## CAThulu (Jul 16, 2008)

wow....you completely avoided the points I was addressing in my post.  or even recognized that I did address your inquiry on other points other then the 'love is never wrong' spin on why homosexuality is not wrong.

Yeah.  Try bird hunting.  Or politics.  I think you'd be great at the latter.

C-ya.

CAT


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## Jizz-Cat (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm not confused. I'm totally aware of who I am and proud to say it. Although I must say it won't be a bad thing to be confused about your sexuality I guess. You get to try all the dishes before you pick the meal I guess.


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## ToeClaws (Jul 16, 2008)

*LoinRockerForever* - Should have posted here sooner, sorry - First off, relax - it's okay to feel confusion.  At 21, I had not fully accepted that I was bisexual - I know I liked men, but I fought it and I had the seem unworthy sorta feeling with women.  That is a matter of self confidence, and also of time.  A person's twenties is often when they reconcile who they are, what they are and settle in it.  You're working on that stage - and the good thing is you have folks to help you along if you need it. 

My advice, from my own experiences, would be to not resist what you feel - accept it, and add it to who you are.  Don't feel asshamed, don't feel unworthy - just be you.

*MauEvig* - Religion is a personal thing.  It's teachings and it's laws are relevent only to an individual who chooses to believe in and follow them.  If you believe it is wrong on the basis of your faith, then you have every right to, but no right to tell anyone what you believe is anything more than a personal opinion.  Regardless of what that faith is, it becomes irrelevent in arguing right or wrong against anyone who is not of that faith.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

Holy fucking shit. AGAIN!?

It appears we have someone here that follows ages old book that tells them to literally KILL gay people for no good reason, and you're trying to ARGUE with them now? Are you fucking stupid?



			
				Leviticus(20:13) said:
			
		

> If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.



This is a sick, disgusting and completely unjustified outlook which is no different to Nazi or KKK stance.

Don't argue with it. It's already wrong.


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## Werevixen (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm pan-, bi- and wafflesexual.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

Fuck yeah, waffles!


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## Yggd (Jul 16, 2008)

I don't believe in "sexual confusion." Sure, you can go through various stages of differentiating attraction throughout life, and I guess you could consider it confusion to some extent, but why over-complicate things by stressing over whether it's your true feelings or not? In my opinion, you can show "true" feelings towards anyone as long as you dig their personality/beliefs. As for aesthetic attraction, well, as that changes throughout your life, just go with the flow. Have a girlfriend, but find her increasingly less attractive? Just flat out tell her, "It seems I'm beginning to lose interest in the physical aspects of women. I'm sorry to say, but I think we might have to settle for friendship." Being a pansexual, this mentality doesn't make sense to me, but if physical attraction is really that important to someone, then, like I said, go with it until you come to a conclusion on the matter.


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## Runefox (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig: Since you more or less ignored most of my post and waved it off as off-topic, I can only assume that you have no more desire to pursue the topic in general and thus I will not be participating further, under the assumption that you have decided to either withdraw or accept my line of reasoning given your current reaction.

If that's not the case, please either do as every other person in the topic has done and walk away from it, leaving the thread to return to its rightful subject, or bother to intelligently and insightfully respond to the subjects brought up to you. Simply asserting that such-and-such is wrong or such-and-such is set in stone, or outright saying that Atheists are without moral, doesn't wash with me.

Yggd: For me, I can't say for certain what I'm attracted to on any given day the same as most people seem to be able to, just like they're able to say "Yeah, I'm male/female". I can't just think and say "Yeah, I like guys/girls/both". Physical attraction isn't everything, but you can imagine how a straight guy would feel being in a relationship with a gay guy, and that's just not what I want to have happen to either me or whoever is unlucky enough to end up with me.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 16, 2008)

ToeClaws said:


> *LoinRockerForever* - Should have posted here sooner, sorry - First off, relax - it's okay to feel confusion.  At 21, I had not fully accepted that I was bisexual - I know I liked men, but I fought it and I had the seem unworthy sorta feeling with women.  That is a matter of self confidence, and also of time.  A person's twenties is often when they reconcile who they are, what they are and settle in it.  You're working on that stage - and the good thing is you have folks to help you along if you need it.
> 
> My advice, from my own experiences, would be to not resist what you feel - accept it, and add it to who you are.  Don't feel asshamed, don't feel unworthy - just be you.




Sorry I have been busy at work and honestly my landlady needs to back off âŒ_âŒ

Anyway, I guess that makes sense. I mean, I just feel happy knowing I like both sexes but feel a guilt inside because I do like both sexes. I don't know why, and that starts the confusion....that and the fear of being alone for the rest of my life, because I am not sure that the person I find will be accepting that I like both sexes.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> I mean, I just *feel happy* knowing I like both sexes but *feel a guilt* inside because I do like both sexes.


Well there's your problem - Guilt is what you get for letting other people tell you how to live your life.

Not caring about what other people think is not exactly an easy feat, but now is as good time to start as ever.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Well there's your problem - Guilt is what you get for letting other people tell you how to live your life.
> 
> Not caring about what other people think is not exactly an easy feat, but now is as good time to start as ever.




I guess thats true, but I do care about what people think about me thou...I guess..I just need to learn to toughen up a bit. I mean I don't let it affect my work or anything, but it does say on my mind. As for them telling me how to live? I try to ignore most of it.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> I guess thats true, but I do care about what people think about me thou...I guess..I just need to learn to toughen up a bit. I mean I don't let it affect my work or anything, but it does say on my mind. As for them telling me how to live? I try to ignore most of it.


And as long as you care, the feeling of guilt will stay there.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> And as long as you care, the feeling of guilt will sustain itself.



But I don't want to end up black hearted you know? I mean...I care about a lot of things and people...Its just a weird concept for me to embrace...I feel this is going to need practice.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> But I don't want to end up black hearted you know? I mean...I care about a lot of things and people...Its just a weird concept for me to embrace...I feel this is going to need practice.


Sure.

Tip: if you're listening to me, you're probably doing it wrong.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 16, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Sure.
> 
> Tip: if you're listening to me, you're probably doing it wrong.




lmao, not exactly, but a little.

Q__Q more practice needed * sigh *


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## Yggd (Jul 16, 2008)

Runefox said:


> Yggd: For me, I can't say for certain what I'm attracted to on any given day the same as most people seem to be able to, just like they're able to say "Yeah, I'm male/female". I can't just think and say "Yeah, I like guys/girls/both". Physical attraction isn't everything, but you can imagine how a straight guy would feel being in a relationship with a gay guy, and that's just not what I want to have happen to either me or whoever is unlucky enough to end up with me.



Well, like I said, you should just go with whatever direction you end up swinging for that day and not worry about it. Are you so indecisive that the minute you're with a guy/girl, you feel like you're attracted to the opposite? That would be pretty awkward and I hope it's not the case.


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## MauEvig (Jul 16, 2008)

> MauEvig: Since you more or less ignored most of my post and waved it off as off-topic, I can only assume that you have no more desire to pursue the topic in general and thus I will not be participating further, under the assumption that you have decided to either withdraw or accept my line of reasoning given your current reaction.
> 
> If that's not the case, please either do as every other person in the topic has done and walk away from it, leaving the thread to return to its rightful subject, or bother to intelligently and insightfully respond to the subjects brought up to you. Simply asserting that such-and-such is wrong or such-and-such is set in stone, or outright saying that Atheists are without moral, doesn't wash with me.


 
Well I'm sorry, but it'd be easier if there were others who could combat these arguments along side me. But it appears that I'm the only one in here that thinks it's wrong.
Instead I'm faced with everyone else coming at me just because I feel it's wrong.
So I'm sorry I can't keep up with everyone all at once. 
And FYI the point of Jesus dying was to forgive people of their sins, so they wouldn't HAVE to be put to death. Nice try Draco. I rather believe in a book that teaches about a forgiving savior and an afterlife...than believe there's no God at all and that we'll cease to exist when we die.
Anyway what I believe is and it isn't relevant. If it's completely irrelevant except for people who believe in my religion, then you may as well be an atheist because it doesn't matter anyway. But if the religion IS true...that would also mean what I believe is true...and that homosexuality is wrong.
My point is, either something is wrong or it isn't. Either something's true or it isn't. There's no gray area, not inbetween thing. It's black and white.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Well I'm sorry, but it'd be easier if there were others who could combat these arguments along side me. But it appears that I'm the only one in here that thinks it's wrong.
> Instead I'm faced with everyone else coming at me just because I feel it's wrong.So I'm sorry I can't keep up with everyone all at once.


Then don't start these things in the first place. Admitting weakness solves nothing.



MauEvig said:


> And FYI the point of Jesus dying was to forgive people of their sins, so they wouldn't HAVE to be put to death.


Then what are you arguing about. This would be irrational.



MauEvig said:


> Anyway what I believe is and it isn't relevant.


Then don't bring it up. This is facetious.



MauEvig said:


> But if the religion IS true...that would also mean what I believe is true...and that homosexuality is wrong.


If you can't prove it, you can't talk about is as if it's truth. Doing otherwise would constitute lying.



MauEvig said:


> My point is, either something is wrong or it isn't. Either something's true or it isn't. There's no gray area, not inbetween thing. It's black and white.


Morality is subjective. Law and reality aren't.Your moral outlook is unjustified and contradicting, and therefore wrong in both law and reality.

All this makes you a weak-willed, irrational, ignorant and facetious liar. At this point I can only wonder if you really wish to demean Christians on this board in eyes of non-believers, or just anger the believers by doing so.


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## Tudd (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> There's no gray area, not inbetween thing. It's black and white.


 
This is of epic proportions.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

Religious people are fun that way.


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## MauEvig (Jul 16, 2008)

Actually the way I was presenting my argument was to look at both sides of the spectrum. If you want a strictly biased Christian opinion, then yes. I believe homosexuality is wrong, needs to be redeamed and forgiven and gone straight. Yes I don't believe morality/right and wrong are subjective.
Seeing how you think looking at both sides of the spectrum and trying to look at it from both point of views is fallacious, then I'll simply remain completely biased.
It's quite obvious you are biased against religion after all, so why shouldn't I be biased against non-religion? 
And if you think I'm a liar, you are quite obviously a jerk that I don't need to listen to anymore.
And yes, you pissed me off to the point of going on my block list. I doubt you'd really care anyway. I bloody hate how atheists can be so obnoxious and think they know everything. >.<

One more thing, the fact that I'm standing my ground should show that I'm not weak willed at all. Otherwise I'd let the other people in this thread get their own way.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Actually the way I was presenting my argument was to look at both sides of the spectrum.


  No you weren't. You're outright lying again.



MauEvig said:


> Actually the way I was presenting my argument was to look at both sides of the spectrum. If you want a strictly biased Christian opinion, then yes. I believe homosexuality is wrong, needs to be redeamed and forgiven and gone straight. Yes I don't believe morality/right and wrong are subjective.


You simply weren't, and you just confirmed to hold a certain viewpoint. This is an extreme level of facetiousness.

Plus, you said in the previous post that what you believe does not matter - and, in reality, it indeed doesn't - yet now you present your viewpoint as if it somehow matters. This is hypocrisy.



MauEvig said:


> Seeing how you think looking at both sides of the spectrum and trying to look at it from both point of views is fallacious, then I'll simply remain completely biased.


You never did. Unless you claim to hold two opposing two opposing viewpoints at once, which is a sign of insanity.



MauEvig said:


> It's quite obvious you are biased against religion after all, so why shouldn't I be biased against non-religion?


I never asked you not to be. You're basically making things up.



MauEvig said:


> And if you think I'm a liar, you are quite obviously a jerk that I don't need to listen to anymore.


I'm not sure what makes you think I'm arguing with you in the first place. Doing so would require valid feedback or notability from your side of the argument, which is simply not case. It's all been done, and I'm not as arrogant as to try and convince you one way or another.


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## ToeClaws (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> I bloody hate how atheists can be so obnoxious and think they know everything. >.<



Pot calling kettle black. 

Besides, your opinionated commentary is no longer relevant to the thread or of any help to anyone.  Well except maybe Draco.


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## MauEvig (Jul 16, 2008)

> Pot calling kettle black.
> 
> Besides, your opinionated commentary is no longer relevant to the thread or of any help to anyone. Well except maybe Draco.


 
Hey, I didn't say I KNEW everything. Geesh if I did don't you think I'd be a multi-billion dollar billionaire or something?


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## Draco_2k (Jul 16, 2008)

ToeClaws said:


> Besides, your opinionated commentary is no longer relevant to the thread or of any help to anyone. Well except maybe Draco.


My bad. But I couldn't miss the opportunity.


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## CAThulu (Jul 16, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Hey, I didn't say I KNEW everything. Geesh if I did don't you think I'd be a multi-billion dollar billionaire or something?




No one made the claim that you knew everything.  Only that your rhetoric was opinionated .  Especially since this thread is for someone who was asking for guidance, instead of asking for whether their lifestyle was wrong. 

It kind of puts a bad spin on your side to begin with if your insulting the person inquiring for assistance, and those who are attempting to answer his question.


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## ExTo (Jul 17, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> I bloody hate how atheists can be so obnoxious and think they know everything. >.<



I hereby slap the "MASSIVE HYPOCRITE" label across thy's username.

I wanted to reply to all this, but you're not worth my time. Have a fine day, m'lady.


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## Torrijos-sama (Jul 17, 2008)

You're probably Love-Shy.
Read link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love-shyness


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## Aurali (Jul 17, 2008)

Fuck Orientations.. Seriously. Why label yourself?


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## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

That dude Eli has the right idea. Just go with the flow. If you like someone, you like them. If you don't, you don't. Or at least, that's how I see things.


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## Takun (Jul 17, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> But then your logic is flawed and fallacious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, murder is not morally wrong.  We legally do it ALL the time.  If it was wrong then, damn you Christians are ALL fucked.  I poke, I kid because 99% of my friends are Christians and the nicest most open-minded bunch I know(they put up with me:3).  Nothing is morally wrong.  Murder may be legally wrong if you get caught.  Now let's say I hate someone enough to kill them.  Would I?  No, because no matter how much I may want to, they aren't worth enough to me to throw away my freedom.

When you start using religion to label people as wrong and start intruding on THEIR happiness, then you are the "evil" one in my eyes.  We only get one guaranteed life, why waste it being something you aren't?  I'm not one of those Atheist asking for all religious stuff taken out of our government.  I don't believe in it, but why should I care if it's there?  Doesn't harm me to see Santa in a store, why should I care to have some fake deity's name on my money?  The problem with religious tension is that there are immature parties on BOTH sides.  In reality, we should all be grown up enough to accept to quirks and beliefs that make us who were are.  It's the spice of life.

So in closing, you can feed me all the religious reasoning you want I don't believe it.  I've studied religion in college because it is of a big interest to me.  

MauEvig, I now hold no ill-will towards you.  I do respect the passion with which you seem to post and the position that you believe to be right.  You will not change my mind and if you come across someone who TRULY is confused and straighten them out, I don't mind, but I am inclined to believe that MOST bisexuals and homosexual are indeed naturally.

Signed, that gay Atheist nihilist supporting lion, Takun


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## MauEvig (Jul 17, 2008)

> I hereby slap the "MASSIVE HYPOCRITE" label across thy's username.



Once again, I'm not pretending to know EVERYTHING. 

Fine. I'll stop badgering people about how it's wrong. Why? Because I feel like I'm playing a game here, a game I don't like. And I'm not getting anywhere. I am not however going to admit defeat, because I don't feel like I've lost anything. I havn't changed my mind, nor do I feel morality is something subjective to the individual. Even if you did convince me there was nothing wrong with homosexuality, you'll never convince me that morality is subjective or even objective to one's individual thinking. It completely contradicts itself, because something like murder cannot be right for one person and wrong for another. Like I said, either it is or isn't. It doesn't matter if the government does it legally or not. It's not about what's legal and what isn't.
I don't feel this was supposed to be a contest, and since people were asking me to leave anyway, we'll just call a stalemate. I feel that is more than fair, I already agreed to have a neutral stance on the subject anyway.
So, there you go. You wanna be homosexual go ahead. And if you want to be an atheist, go ahead. And I'll be a Straight Furry Christian. Just do what makes you happy, and I'll back off just so long as it's not shoved in my face.


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## Aurali (Jul 17, 2008)

Charkonian said:


> That dude Eli has the right idea. Just go with the flow. If you like someone, you like them. If you don't, you don't. Or at least, that's how I see things.



I'm a girl.


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## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Jul 17, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> I don't feel this was supposed to be a contest, and since people were asking me to leave anyway, we'll just call a stalemate. I feel that is more than fair, I already agreed to have a neutral stance on the subject anyway.
> So, there you go. You wanna be homosexual go ahead. And if you want to be an atheist, go ahead. And I'll be a Straight Furry Christian. Just do what makes you happy, and I'll back off just so long as it's not shoved in my face.



I don't recall people asking you to leave :|
But anyway, nice to hear. I don't think I've agreed with anything she's said thus far, but live and let live I guess. Now, since Mau has stated she has agreed to a neutral position on this topic and I don't think we are going to convince her of anything, can we please, for the love of Seth, bury this many-times-overdone topic?

Also, "morality" is subjective, etc, etc.


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## Takun (Jul 17, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> Even if you did convince me there was nothing wrong with homosexuality, you'll never convince me that morality is subjective or even objective to one's individual thinking. It completely contradicts itself, because something like murder cannot be right for one person and wrong for another.



So like what about the death penalty?  What about the dropping of the bombs on Japan?  What about killing someone who threatens my safety and health?  People are KILLED all the time in the name of so many different causes.  They ARE justified in taking others lives in their eyes.  THAT IN ON IT'S OWN makes it subjective.  The fact that you believe it's immoral and so many don't supports it being subjective.  Those living in underdeveloped areas of the world have their own set of morals and tribal taboos.  Are they all morally wrong?  Should we go in and convert them to OUR way of thinking.   Oops I mean HIS way of thinking.

That is a little bit of my views on it all.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

MauEvig said:


> So, there you go. You wanna be homosexual go ahead. And if you want to be an atheist, go ahead. And I'll be a Straight Furry Christian. Just do what makes you happy, and I'll back off just so long as it's not shoved in my face.


Good job at least admitting how shitty your behaviour was.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 17, 2008)

Eli said:


> Fuck Orientations.. Seriously. Why label yourself?


 
I don't know, it just seemed...like the right thing to do? Blah.....But, yeah I am really thinking about all this, and honestly. Its starting to let up on the guilt factor. 

But I keep asking myself, if I do find someone out there, will they be okay with the fact I like both?

some one mentioned before that It was a plus thing, and I agree, but You never know, I mean I don't want to fall in love again just to find out that, this person doesn't like me anymore cause of me being bi.

Its a hidden fear I wish to be rid of, but its hard to shake off.


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## Takun (Jul 17, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> I don't know, it just seemed...like the right thing to do? Blah.....But, yeah I am really thinking about all this, and honestly. Its starting to let up on the guilt factor.
> 
> But I keep asking myself, if I do find someone out there, will they be okay with the fact I like both?
> 
> ...



I've had fear over that quite a bit.  In all honestly, I suck at committing to things it's a flaw of mine that I'm working really hard on.  I'm all over the place in interests and hobbies.  BUT remember, you can't find love if you are too scared to put yourself out there for it.


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## LoinRockerForever (Jul 17, 2008)

Takumi_L said:


> I've had fear over that quite a bit.  In all honestly, I suck at committing to things it's a flaw of mine that I'm working really hard on.  I'm all over the place in interests and hobbies.  BUT remember, you can't find love if you are too scared to put yourself out there for it.



I am not scared of being put out there so to speak, I am just uncertain if the person I find will change there mind about me over a long period of time.

...Reading that now.......Jeez, I think I am starting to realize what a stupid fear this really is now.


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## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Good job at least admitting how shitty your behaviour was.




*laughs* That's a bit harsh, don'tcha think?


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## Takun (Jul 17, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> I am not scared of being put out there so to speak, I am just uncertain if the person I find will change there mind about me over a long period of time.
> 
> ...Reading that now.......Jeez, I think I am starting to realize what a stupid fear this really is now.



Don't worry about it, and if they do...their loss?  Really unless you are a terrible person(and you are worried about how THEY will think of you, so I doubt you are) you have nothing to fear.  Chin up and go get them tiger:3


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## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

LoinRockerForever said:


> ...Reading that now.......Jeez, I think I am starting to realize what a stupid fear this really is now.


Well there's some progress. 



Charkonian said:


> *laughs* That's a bit harsh, don'tcha think?


You obviously missed the best of my posts here.


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## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> You obviously missed the best of my posts here.




Not at all. *smiles* Read this thing from the beginning. Was quite... uh... interesting. Haha.

I guess I'm just too much of a nice guy for my own good. *grins* Ignore me if you see fit. You were quite justified in everything you spoke.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

Charkonian said:


> Not at all. *smiles* Read this thing from the beginning. Was quite... uh... interesting. Haha.


Whoops.



Charkonian said:


> I guess I'm just too much of a nice guy for my own good. *grins* Ignore me if you see fit. You were quite justified in everything you spoke.


Aside from outright flattery, it's always nice to hear intelligently-drawn claims.


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## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:


> Whoops.



From this, I draw the conclusion that your purpose here was to preserve the mundane?

*grins and chuckles* I like you dude. You're a cool guy.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

Charkonian said:


> From this, I draw the conclusion that your purpose here was to preserve the mundane?


Mainly having fun.



Charkonian said:


> *grins and chuckles* I like you dude. You're a cool guy.


Hey, we have a lot in common. I like me too.


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## Ferrous_Oxide (Jul 17, 2008)

Don't feel too bad about this whole situation. I just recently came to terms with a lot dealing with my own sexuality. Currently If I had to label myself it would be bisexual, but it is a complicated thing to try and understand. I also wonder how I will deal with relationships down the line, especially since I lean towards the female side of the fence. I always have to try and think if the person I fall for will be accepting of that fact. Add the Furry discussion to the mix and it can get even more complicated. 

My only advice to you, feeling the same kind of apprehensions is to just try and stay relaxed about it. If you have friends online or otherwise, take solice in them. I am sure things will start to make sense given enough time. It has a way of getting less complicated.


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## Charkonian (Jul 17, 2008)

Draco_2k said:
			
		

> Mainly having fun.



So I'm NOT the only one. Heh, go figure.



			
				Draco_2k said:
			
		

> Hey, we have a lot in common. I like me too.



You sure about that? Narcissism is often a ruse for teetering self-confidence.


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## Draco_2k (Jul 17, 2008)

Charkonian said:


> You sure about that? Narcissism is often a ruse for teetering self-confidence.


Why, you sly thing.


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