# Looking for advice on how to make a 13 years old understand....



## zhuria (Dec 19, 2012)

...What it takes to be a professional comic artist.
The problem is this, my sister recently discovered anime and manga, and now she has decided sheÂ´ll be the BEST OF MANGAKAS ever existed.
She already asked for a tablet, which I disapprove, but my mom is going to buy it to her.
I have quite a lot "how to draw" books, which I think would be the best for her as sheÂ´s just starting out and loomis would be too hard for her and sheÂ´d get frustrated easily. IÂ´ll lend her those tomorrow, when I see her, but was thinking maybe you had another tips about it?

Thanks in advance,
A very concerned sister.


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## Tiamat (Dec 19, 2012)

I think its great that her sister is so concerned, but I honestly would not press the issue too much.
At such a young age, let her rather enjoy drawing as much as she can before it has to start becoming work.


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## zhuria (Dec 19, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> I think its great that her sister is so concerned, but I honestly would not press the issue too much.
> At such a young age, let her rather enjoy drawing as much as she can before it has to start becoming work.


The problem is, she already told my mom she wonÂ´t go to college because she wants to do that... And my mother almost blew up XD


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## Tiamat (Dec 19, 2012)

I said all kinds of silly things when I was 13. I never went to college and went straight to work after high school. I dropped art entirely.
Then one day I looked at my office job and thought about how I would rather be drawing pictures and just said to hell with this. 
Now I'm freelancing from home.  13 is still a baby to me. So many things might change. I'd say follow up on her hobby and encourage her
and see how she feels about it in 3 years.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 19, 2012)

Well she's 13. If her mom wants to spoil her with all that stuff, let her. It can be a phase. See if she enjoys drawing. I mean yeah it will be sad in a couple years all that stuff ends up in the next garage sale, but such is life.

If she starts noticing big sis is doing things, I'm sure she'll inquire so just help her out the best you can.


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## Avlenna (Dec 19, 2012)

I know when I was 13 I used to say that I wanted to be a vet.  Now, I'm in college studying music because I want to be a private teacher/music theory professor.  She is still young and she may just change her mind.

However, if she still wants to pursue this in the future, maybe try to convince her to go to school for art and/or comics (some programs offer that).  It will help her improve her skills and such, and she will be able to make a bit more money that way.


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## Thaily (Dec 19, 2012)

zhuria said:


> The problem is, she already told my mom she wonÂ´t go to college because she wants to do that... And my mother almost blew up XD


 
I'd suggest art school, but if you show up with a portfolio full of anime they'll laugh you out the door.
Because tons and tons of teenage American girls decide they're going to be the bestest most kawaii mangaka EVAR and very few of them have the sheer tenacity to follow through.
ESPECIALLY when it comes to critique, either looking at their own work critically or not shitting themselves when someone else gives them a constructive critique.

Buuuut if she really wants to be ANY kind of artist, a tablet is not an awful investment. Though I'd suggest getting her Andrew Loomis' "Figure Drawing for All It's Worth" as well as some other books, because style = someone's personal interpretation of reality and she needs to learn how real anatomy etc. works first. If you can, keep her away from the "How to draw manga" books.


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## Avlenna (Dec 19, 2012)

Thaily said:


> I'd suggest art school, but if you show up with a portfolio full of anime they'll laugh you out the door.
> .



Not necessarily, especially if it's a place that offers a comic making class or even degree program.

On a side note, you could also try to get her to draw various sorts of characters in various styles (manga, real life, etc).  Help her perfect her drawing.  I draw myself and I've realized that if I stick to drawing in just one style for too long I get rather bored.  I draw in various styles/genres just to get a better of idea of how things work in art.


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## zhuria (Dec 19, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> I said all kinds of silly things when I was 13. I never went to college and went straight to work after high school. I dropped art entirely.
> Then one day I looked at my office job and thought about how I would rather be drawing pictures and just said to hell with this.
> Now I'm freelancing from home.  13 is still a baby to me. So many things might change. I'd say follow up on her hobby and encourage her
> and see how she feels about it in 3 years.


Ok, IÂ´ll try to get that into my momÂ´s head. I think she is too scared cause both my brother and myself dropped out of highschool and later re-took it. And weÂ´re both still in college...


Arshes Nei said:


> Well she's 13. If her mom wants to spoil her with all that stuff, let her. It can be a phase. See if she enjoys drawing. I mean yeah it will be sad in a couple years all that stuff ends up in the next garage sale, but such is life.
> 
> If she starts noticing big sis is doing things, I'm sure she'll inquire so just help her out the best you can.


She already knows I draw, and has seen my drawings. And I donÂ´t have any problem with that, I guess it is the whole "IÂ´ll be a comic artist so I donÂ´t have to study" what irks me (and my mom) the most XD. I really hope she keeps on enjoying drawing, she has already left her guitar because it was too hard.


Silvaris said:


> I know when I was 13 I used to say that I wanted to be a vet.  Now, I'm in college studying music because I want to be a private teacher/music theory professor.  She is still young and she may just change her mind.
> 
> However, if she still wants to pursue this in the future, maybe try to convince her to go to school for art and/or comics (some programs offer that).  It will help her improve her skills and such, and she will be able to make a bit more money that way.


I see ^^. I also wanted to be a vet at that age (still would like to though), and IÂ´m still changing careers, IÂ´ve jumped from computer engineering to maths teacher and now IÂ´m going to start an Art teacher career...
Unfortunately where I live itÂ´s either "bellas artes" , the Art college that doesnÂ´t teach anything (No figure drawing classes, for example) or Art teacher, where you have half of the courses that donÂ´t have anything to do with art.

After reading all of this, I think IÂ´ll tell her how hard it is to make comics but IÂ´ll still encourage her to do it. IÂ´d love to see her growing up to be an amazing artist after all ^^


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## Thaily (Dec 19, 2012)

Silvaris said:


> Not necessarily, especially if it's a place that offers a comic making class or even degree program.



Regardless, your portfolio needs MORE than just manga/anime, if these schools have their pick of the litter, they're going to take people with diverse interests and skills.
If anything because those people are open to more feedback and instruction and not just things that seem immediately relevant to their one, single interest.
Lots of comic artists have a classic background, they know how to do life drawing and composition etc. etc.


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## Tiamat (Dec 19, 2012)

Thaily said:


> "How to draw manga" books.



Yeeaah...I'd also keep a limit on those how to books for now. Problem is at that age you think that cos its in a book, then the person MUST know what they are talking about. Coupled with the fact
that the claims by the author are so over the top, an impressionable person might get hung up on the same static tutorials and bullshit methodology which is truly geared towards teenagers, making
them a dangerous tasty, albeit shit filled, trap.

I'd honestly suggest for Christmas or a birthday getting her Imaginative Realism, I mean just look at that cover:







Its not a how to draw book, but rather how to celebrate drawing fun things and making them come to life. Its full color and filled with BEAUTIFUL paintings that
I would think would appeal to a young artist and despite -some- of the high grade terms inside (it has a glossary) its -very- accessible. 

Rather than giving her 'how to' art books at this stage. I'd suggest giving her inspirational books painted by pros who know what they are doing. Rather increase
the odds of emulating them than some hack. Something like this: 






some sample images














Admiration of beautiful art could lead to inspiration and appreciation and still be fun.


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## zhuria (Dec 19, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> Yeeaah...I'd also keep a limit on those how to books for now. Problem is at that age you think that cos its in a book, then the person MUST know what they are talking about. Coupled with the fact
> that the claims by the author are so over the top, an impressionable person might get hung up on the same static tutorials and bullshit methodology which is truly geared towards teenagers, making
> them a dangerous tasty, albeit shit filled, trap.
> 
> ...


Wow!!! IÂ´d love to have those books!!
I donÂ´t think those would be in spanish though, so for her it would be hard to understand them. IÂ´ll try to get her some books like those, and I wonÂ´t give her the "How to draw" ones XD


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## Tiamat (Dec 19, 2012)

zhuria said:


> I donÂ´t think those would be in spanish though,



Good point. Well, at least with books like the Spiderwick field guide, you can still just appreciate the pictures.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 19, 2012)

Silvaris said:


> Not necessarily, especially if it's a place that offers a comic making class or even degree program.



I think you need to check up on your information. Because it is false.


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## Avlenna (Dec 19, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I think you need to check up on your information. Because it is false.



Hmm.  Maybe it's just online degrees that I saw something like that?  I'm sure I've seen someplace that offers that sort of thing.  I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen.


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## Grunnolf (Dec 19, 2012)

I would say give her some how to books and if her school has an art class have her take it to get a feel for the basics. that way the hot to's not only seem easier but increase her  skill which can only add up till she gets what she wants. Granted im only 17 so i can't really say much. Like i said screw art it sucks and isn't worth it BUT in order to graduate i have to take an art class and went from hating it to painting a furry still rave scene on a canvas with acrylic paints. but either way get her into some  school art classes and give her how to books and let her frollic away in her own art world.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 19, 2012)

Silvaris said:


> Hmm.  Maybe it's just online degrees that I saw something like that?  I'm sure I've seen someplace that offers that sort of thing.  I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen.



Yeah you don't need degrees to be in art (other than teaching/overseas). They want to know you can draw, not symbolize (otherwise look for design  )


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## Ansitru (Dec 19, 2012)

zhuria said:


> Wow!!! IÂ´d love to have those books!!
> I donÂ´t think those would be in spanish though, so for her it would be hard to understand them. IÂ´ll try to get her some books like those, and I wonÂ´t give her the "How to draw" ones XD



Just don't get her anything labelled as "CHRIS HART" and you're already steering clear of a crapload of shitty "_how to_"-books.


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## Taralack (Dec 19, 2012)

That's really great that she's so interested at such a young age! If you can build her foundations in good things early, that'd be a great start. And your mom being supportive would be a big help too. (At 13 I loved to draw but it was suppressed..) 

If you can subtly steer her away from animu and start her on life drawing and such, that would be great. Buy her the Loomis books for Christmas.


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## zhuria (Dec 20, 2012)

Ansitru said:


> Just don't get her anything labelled as "CHRIS HART" and you're already steering clear of a crapload of shitty "_how to_"-books.


Hahaha!!! one friend of mine let me have one of his, it was an absolute piece of sh** XD
I wonÂ´t let her get around those ever.



Toraneko said:


> That's really great that she's so interested at such a young age! If you can build her foundations in good things early, that'd be a great start. And your mom being supportive would be a big help too. (At 13 I loved to draw but it was suppressed..)
> 
> If you can subtly steer her away from animu and start her on life drawing and such, that would be great. Buy her the Loomis books for Christmas.


My mom learnt the lesson with me, after a harsh critique from my parents and them telling I wouldnÂ´t get anywhere by drawing, I stopped drawing and only re-started at 17-18 years old. I guess she saw she couldnÂ´t take me away from drawing.
I will try and teach her some stuff, but the animu stuff is gonna be there because sheÂ´s obsessed with it XD
I will try to build her foundations also ^w^.


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## zhuria (Dec 26, 2012)

Well, I couldnÂ´t buy her the Loomis books for christmas, but I still gave her a lot of useful information, and I really plan on getting her one of Loomis books as soon as my budget allows it. What I did was this:




I made her and my son a personalized sketchbook, like the one I have.
I want to thank you all for the support and advice ^w^


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## Chinona (Dec 29, 2012)

Aside from the Spanish issue... Loomis is Free Domain...

You could also see if you could find the personal portfolios of her favourite anime/mangaka artists... Most of them have an INCREDIBLE base in realism and life drawing.  I mean there are a a few that don't, but it's pretty easy to tell which ones don't...


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## Tiamat (Dec 30, 2012)

Chinona said:


> Aside from the Spanish issue... Loomis is Free Domain...



That is incorrect.* Loomis is no longer free domain.* I can appreciate that perhaps not everybody is aware of this. Titan has reprinted the entire Loomis range and now owns the rights to the series.


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## Thaily (Dec 30, 2012)

zhuria said:


> I made her and my son a personalized sketchbook, like the one I have.
> I want to thank you all for the support and advice ^w^



That's really nice, a lot of family members aren't supportive when their loved ones want to be artists, so your support means more than you know.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 30, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> That is incorrect.* Loomis is no longer free domain.* I can appreciate that perhaps not everybody is aware of this. Titan has reprinted the entire Loomis range and now owns the rights to the series.



Loomis never was public domain. The only reason that people kept handing out the books is because it looked like the family wouldn't even allow them to be republished.

George Bridgman on the other hand, certain editions of his books are actually public domain


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## Corto (Dec 30, 2012)

zhuria said:


> The problem is, she already told my mom she wonÂ´t go to college because she wants to do that... And my mother almost blew up XD



She's 13. At 13 I didn't want to go to university because I planned to be Solid Snake. Just relax on that front.

Either way, kudos on being so supportive.


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## Tiamat (Dec 30, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> Loomis never was public domain. The only reason that people kept handing out the books is because it looked like the family wouldn't even allow them to be republished.
> 
> George Bridgman on the other hand, certain editions of his books are actually public domain



My bad.

Well, now its even more not free.


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## Chinona (Dec 30, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> My bad.
> 
> Well, now its even more not free.




My bad as well I did a quick google, and didn't find anything that stated otherwise.  Oh well glad I grabbed them when they were 'available'.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 31, 2012)

Chinona said:


> My bad as well I did a quick google, and didn't find anything that stated otherwise.  Oh well glad I grabbed them when they were 'available'.



I'm even happier that I actually bought them. They aren't that expensive and the size of them is much better than a pdf that has scribbles on them.


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## RTDragon (Dec 31, 2012)

You can also buy the loomis books at barnes and noble online. I do get tired of reading PDF of art books and rather have the real thing.


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## Chinona (Dec 31, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I'm even happier that I actually bought them. They aren't that expensive and the size of them is much better than a pdf that has scribbles on them.


When I downloaded them the cheapest I could get for one of them was about $120 with the shipping, and I also searched book stores high and low... Unfortunately $120.00 was WELL out of my range - I haven't paid that much for a book since my University text books....   I may take a look again now that they are back in print since now it's not looking for out of print books because you are right about the scribbles but I've taken to treating them like ads on tv ignored and forgotten with less than a moment of attention given to them.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 31, 2012)

Chinona said:


> When I downloaded them the cheapest I could get for one of them was about $120 with the shipping, and I also searched book stores high and low... Unfortunately $120.00 was WELL out of my range - I haven't paid that much for a book since my University text books....   I may take a look again now that they are back in print since now it's not looking for out of print books because you are right about the scribbles but I've taken to treating them like ads on tv ignored and forgotten with less than a moment of attention given to them.



I'm not sure what this is, a justification? We said they're in print. Just go back and buy them. We know they were out of print. We're telling you to stop making excuses for the piracy.


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## Thaily (Dec 31, 2012)

People need to buy 2 Loomis books for every Christ Hart book that is sold.


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## Tiamat (Dec 31, 2012)

Thaily said:


> *Christ *Hart



Sorry Mrs T, I'm going to have to call you out on that hilariously ironic typo.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 31, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> Sorry Mrs T, I'm going to have to call you out on that hilariously ironic typo.



Well that's what you'll probably be yelling on how crappy it is.

[yt]sfywAHyJ8yg[/yt]


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## Thaily (Dec 31, 2012)

Tiamat said:


> Sorry Mrs T, I'm going to have to call you out on that hilariously ironic typo.



Erhm, yeah.. Guilty.


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## RTDragon (Dec 31, 2012)

Though let's not forget Loomis books even avaliable are not easy to find at barnes and noble. (You have to order online) but unfortunately the hart books are.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 31, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> Though let's not forget Loomis books even avaliable are not easy to find at barnes and noble. (You have to order online) but unfortunately the hart books are.



Ordering online isn't that big of a deal. That's how I got started on Amazon.


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## Thaily (Dec 31, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> Ordering online isn't that big of a deal. That's how I got started on Amazon.



Depends, my books are 11 days late now. Slow fucks need to get a fucking move on.


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 31, 2012)

Thaily said:


> Depends, my books are 11 days late now. Slow fucks need to get a fucking move on.



Well if it's direct from Amazon, I've always gotten great customer service. Day late? I got partial refunds. Dirt or screwed up boxes/product? They reshipped expedited and gave me a sticker to ship the other product back - for UPS to pick up. There was only one time I went though the publisher of a book I bought - and that's because they saw my review and contacted me to offer a replacement.


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## Aleu (Dec 31, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> Though let's not forget Loomis books even avaliable are not easy to find at barnes and noble. (You have to order online) but unfortunately the hart books are.



I think I might have seen both at Hobby Lobby but I am not sure. I know I definitely saw Chris Hart earlier today. That made me very sad.

Thaily maybe you should contact them? Or check to see if there was a glitch that erased your order or something. I've not had problems with Amazon but I've only ordered something from them, like, twice. 11 days late is not acceptable.


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## Thaily (Dec 31, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well if it's direct from Amazon, I've always gotten great customer service. Day late? I got partial refunds.



It is, I kinda wanna wait to contact them until the books are actually in, so I can file the proper complaint. But it's been at US/NL customs for over two weeks altogether and I paid extra to get it shipped faster (8-14 days).
I really do want the extra money I paid for faster shipping back, because this is fucking ridiculous. I don't get to order books from Amazon very often and some of these books I've had on my wishlist for 3+ years.
Funnily enough one of the books is the Loomis anatomy book. I WANT MY LOOMIS FIX FFS!


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## Arshes Nei (Dec 31, 2012)

Ew yeah if it's stuck in Customs...it gets well political.


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## Thaily (Dec 31, 2012)

It's just a stack of books.
INTO the Netherlands.


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## Black Ice (Dec 31, 2012)

Where I went wrong in my art career (and I _just recently _realized this and corrected it) is this: artists need references. We need to use learn to our powers of observation and "draw what we see in front of us". It may seem obvious, but its where a lot of artists can go wrong. Even with drawing Manga and Anime, proportions need to be correct (except for titties, apparently...) 
It sounds like your sister will just rush into it, get frustrated, and then quit. 
At which point you introduce her to using references in the form of stock images or How-To-Draw books.

Also, tablet drawing can be tricky at first. I had a hard time with it and in the end decided I like traditional art better and brought it back


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 2, 2013)

Black Ice said:


> Where I went wrong in my art career (and I _just recently _realized this and corrected it) is this: artists need references. We need to use learn to our powers of observation and "draw what we see in front of us". It may seem obvious, but its where a lot of artists can go wrong. Even with drawing Manga and Anime, proportions need to be correct (except for titties, apparently...)
> It sounds like your sister will just rush into it, get frustrated, and then quit.
> At which point you introduce her to using references in the form of stock images or How-To-Draw books.
> 
> Also, tablet drawing can be tricky at first. I had a hard time with it and in the end decided I like traditional art better and brought it back



Anime/Manga heavily relies on symbolism. While the how-to books do talk about anatomy there are a lot of bad habits to break which have nothing to do with breasts because comic and other art seems to do the same too.

A 13 year old will get frustrated regardless, it happens..they're young. That's why we stressed fun first, let her do her own thing. Introducing her to references isn't exactly solve the problem. Understanding how to use stock takes some time, that's why drawing from life takes first. The thing is that at 13 they want to *enjoy* drawing. That's why just backing away and being supportive is going to help. Even in middle school and high school we were taught to draw from life first, stock references like photos later because they wanted us to see the difference. These weren't big time classes but just drawing a ball, our hands and a portrait. 

What is not stressed enough is that it's ok to make mistakes to learn. Too much "fast food' thinking. It's ok for things to look wrong, and the reason a 13 year old gets frustrated is to want things to look right and don't understand it takes time, it takes patience.


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