# How do you feel about feminism?



## Furrium (Mar 10, 2019)

Most likely neutral, isn't it?

The influence of feminism in the modern world is becoming more and more every day, although the influence of not only this movement is increasing, but it is completely different. We can observe the effect of this, at least on the example of video games, some developers are ready to rewrite history to please this movement, as we can see with the example of Battlefield 5, but in fact either they give up or “eat” them, that is, they don’t have another choice. The character of today's video game should be a woman, at the same time have a small chest, be a little thick, and, moreover, have a dark complexion and ideally be a lesbian.

I am not against feminism, but I do not want him to interfere at least in video games. Let him leave such things alone.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)




----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

CrookedCroc said:


> View attachment 56657


^ This.


----------



## TTArts (Mar 10, 2019)

You've come to the wrong neighborhood, Buckaroo!


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Feminism's okay I guess. 

Since we're still at the point where Steam had to be targeted with multiple petitions not to host a game called 'rape day' I do wonder whether the notion that feminists control the games industry is...maybe a touch exaggerated?
www.bbc.co.uk: Rape Day game pulled after outcry


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

The future is female, people just need to get with that simple fact.

Toxic masculinity in the gaming industry and gaming community is rampant, I don't blame feminism for wanting to combat that.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> The future is female, people just need to get with that simple fact.
> 
> Toxic masculinity in the gaming industry and gaming community is rampant, I don't blame feminism for wanting to combat that.


And how would one combat "toxic masculinity", exactly?

Ban all games with violence towards women in them?


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

There are aspects I don't agree with, but as a woman, I'm all for empowering myself. That's the part I genuinely like.

However, I'm definitely not down for the nasty man-hating/trans-hating parts. And free-bleeding is so much no!


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Doodle Bunny said:


> And free-bleeding is so much no!



Thankyou _ever so much_ for making me google that, doodle bunny.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)

Doodle Bunny said:


> And free-bleeding is so much no



Once again my curiosity betrayed me


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> And how would one combat "toxic masculinity", exactly?
> 
> Ban all games with violence towards women in them?




That would be a good start yes.

You have to have seen those RDR2 videos with the suffragette being used as a punching bag right?
Tell me how that isn't just a cheap and easy way for misogynists to get their jollys and views on youtube.


----------



## Simo (Mar 10, 2019)

CapReMount said:


> The character of today's video game should be a woman, at the same time have a small chest, be a little thick, and, moreover, have a dark complexion and ideally be a lesbian.View attachment 56658



But how would you apply this to games like Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Dig Dug, and Centipede?


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Thankyou _ever so much_ for making me google that, doodle bunny.


Hope you weren’t eating anything. Especially not tomato soup or marinara sauce.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

We could definitely use more feminism in the Middle East where in many countries, women are legally allowed to be beaten by their husbands and their testimony is worth half that of a mans in the court system.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

@Doulyboy

I think you need to articulate some nuance here, to avoid accidentally starting a flame war, by making it clear that you don't want all violence that might involve a woman character to be unacceptable in games- but imply that it's context dependent.

So distinguish between princess Zelda being in a sword battle (fine) and a game where the protagonist drives around town killing prostitutes (probs not so fine).

To most people this is obvious, and you don't need to make this distinction, but there are people out there will read your comments and then stalk your social media counts sending you insults, if you don't specifically spell this out to them.



Doodle Bunny said:


> Hope you weren’t eating anything. Especially not tomato soup or marinara sauce.



Tomato Ravioli </3


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> @Doulyboy
> 
> I think you need to articulate some nuance here, to avoid accidentally starting a flame war, by making it clear that you don't want all violence that might involve a woman character to be unacceptable in games- but imply that it's context dependent.
> 
> ...



I thought that didn't really need to be layed out in laymen as i thought it would be common sense implied, but yes my thoughts exactly.


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Tomato Ravioli </3


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> We could definitely use more feminism in the Middle East where in many countries, women are legally allowed to be beaten by their husbands and their testimony is worth half that of a mans in the court system.




We have to respect that it's a different culture, but it would be nice to see some change in that direction yes.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

The issue I can have with feminism is the fact that the most vocal minority tends to be physically, mentally insane. Seeing that some seem to want women to be more privileged than men

when it shouldn't be the case

there shouldn't be privilege for anyone because we're all equally worthless and idiotic


or
 it might be just my gamer drive that forces me to hate the illegitimate state of Israel and women



btw admins, this was a joke


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

Mama mia, thatsa spicy meataballah!


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> We have to respect that it's a different culture, but it would be nice to see some change in that direction yes.


I find it difficult to respect a culture that promotes treating women as second class citizens and subjecting them to harsh punishments should they disobey their male counterparts orders, but that's just me.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> That would be a good start yes.
> 
> You have to have seen those RDR2 videos with the suffragette being used as a punching bag right?
> Tell me how that isn't just a cheap and easy way for misogynists to get their jollys and views on youtube.


Then we'd have to ban everything from Metroid to Mass Effect to Empire Earth to even Dungeon Keeper 2. We are looking at a ban of like.. 95% in total of games. It's not feasible, and you'd be pissing off just about every demographic you can think of. Feminism is defined as equality between men and women, not supremacy of women over men. That means a man will be treated as a woman and vice versa in games. They are nothing more than a character, especially in a fighting game such as for instance Tekken. 

You can't ban violence towards women in fighting games such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, etc. They naturally have women in them, and it's kinda.. Stupid to say that women can't fight too. May as well say that women are fragile and needs catering to with that kind of mindset. Ever heard the term "soft bigotry of lower expectations"?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> We have to respect that it's a different culture, but it would be nice to see some change in that direction yes.


@Infrarednexus 

Since you're both discussing this topic. 
I agree with you both this is of vital importance, hopefully, when you look at the west and realise that only 100 year ago most countries didn't allow women even the right to vote, that perhaps we will see commensurately rapid improvements in other countries too- which are basically only just making their first steps towards equality.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

@CapReMount I thoroughly enjoy the content of your most excellent threads. Much like Nascar, the costly mishaps and resulting interpersonal drama satiates my primal instincts


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Then we'd have to ban everything from Metroid to Mass Effect to Empire Earth to even Dungeon Keeper 2. We are looking at a ban of like.. 95% in total of games. It's not feasible, and you'd be pissing off just about every demographic you can think of. Feminism is defined as equality between men and women, not supremacy of women over men. That means a man will be treated as a woman and vice versa in games. They are nothing more than a character, especially in a fighting game such as for instance Tekken.
> 
> You can't ban violence towards women in fighting games such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, etc. They naturally have women in them, and it's kinda.. Stupid to say that women can't fight too. May as well say that women are fragile and needs catering to with that kind of mindset. Ever heard the term "soft bigotry of lower expectations"?




Well the gaming industry can do better in regards to protecting women, such as in the case of male toxicity in games such as RDR2, the GTA series and boatload more.

Is that that too much to ask?


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well the gaming industry can do better in regards to protecting women, such as in the case of male toxicity in games such as RDR2, the GTA series and boatload more.
> 
> Is that that too much to ask?



Somebody needs to teach those toxic dudebros in my COD a lesson. 
#CleanUpMisogonyInCOD


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> I find it difficult to respect a culture that promotes treating women as second class citizens and subjecting them to harsh punishments should they disobey their male counterparts orders, but that's just me.




Well you should, it's a different culture and progress happens in a different time frame then here in the West.

Reforms are slow, but are being made. They have quite a bit to go though that's for sure.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well you should, it's a different culture and progress happens in a different time frame then here in the West.
> 
> Reforms are slow, but are being made. They have quite a bit to go though that's for sure.



Hopefully things improve on a time frame faster than they did in the West of course, because that was a process that took centuries in all.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well the gaming industry can do better in regards to protecting women, such as in the case of male toxicity in games such as RDR2, the GTA series and boatload more.
> 
> Is that that too much to ask?



We clearly need more games like BFV then

agenda pushing and historically inaccurate, regardless of context


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well you should, it's a different culture and progress happens in a different time frame then here in the West.
> 
> Reforms are slow, but are being made. They have quite a bit to go though that's for sure.


I'm glad we can find common ground. On a side note....











Can I deep fry you and eat you please? I haven't had a pickle in weeks.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well the gaming industry can do better in regards to protecting women, such as in the case of male toxicity in games such as RDR2, the GTA series and boatload more.
> 
> Is that that too much to ask?


Ideas on how to actually "protect" women in such games are welcome.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

Cod voice chat encourage the harassment of women.
#FemaleGamersRiseUp


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> I'm glad we can find common ground. On a side note....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Why do you and Croc insist on eating or drinking me?;_;


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

KimberVaile said:


> Cod voice chat encourage the harassment of women.
> #FemaleGamersRiseUp


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Now that the discussion on video games seems complete, maybe we should move onto other more important topics?

E.g. In my country, there are still regions where it's illegal to terminate a pregnancy that results from rape or incest. 
We should remember it's not just the middle east where surprisingly old fashioned views regularly harm women.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Ideas on how to actually "protect" women in such games are welcome.




Well banning games that highlight and reward violence to women like GTA, or at the very least taking that portion of the game out.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> reward violence to women like GTA




last time I checked, the game isn't exactly rewarding when it comes to killing any civilians, man or woman, that's why it's not the main focus of the game

and GTA has always been overly exaggerated, almost a parody of our current world, so I would still take into account the context itself rather than saying

"this. out"

striaght away


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well banning games that highlight and reward violence to women like GTA, or at the very least taking that portion of the game out.


How do GTA highlight and reward violence towards women, exactly? They are just another NPC in the game, and you can go around beating up men the same too. There are no advantages nor disadvantages to beating a woman up over a man. 

Unless it's relevant like in for instance a dating game, gender of the character doesn't matter.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> last time I checked, the game isn't exactly rewarding when it comes to killing any civilians, man or woman, that's why it's not the main focus of the game
> 
> and GTA has always been overly exaggerated, almost a parody of our current world, so I would still take into account the context itself rather than saying
> 
> ...




I think you would both be able to find some common ground here simply by concluding that games like GTA should be played by adults, and that there would perhaps be room for concern (on a whole bunch of topics) in a scenario where games that involve themes like prostitution or drug taking end up getting into the hands of under 18's en masse.

I feel maybe Julen you will find that the jokes you've posted could alienate people and make it harder for you and them to reach agreements like that.
@Doulyboy I have to point out as well that you have to be quite careful mentioning words like 'ban' around video games, because video games have a long history of being banned by conservative politicians for gratuitous depictions of violence- so you trigger a lot of well-established responses if you mention that word.

Do you think you can both reach agreement there?


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Can I just briefly mention how absolutely backwards the stunt DICE pulled out with BFV is?

Not only they ruined the historical accuracy of a game (muh history nerd genes), and it's overall appeal by pushing an agenda over gamers

but in a way, by allowing women to fight in ww2, it undermines all the progress done since the 40s, all that's been fought for women's rights, in this case, the right to join the army and fight for a cause they believe in.



I still cannot believe how incredibly stupid and pretentious the quote "I'll be on the right side of history" was


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Now that the discussion on video games seems complete, maybe we should move onto other more important topics?
> 
> E.g. In my country, there are still regions where it's illegal to terminate a pregnancy that results from rape or incest.
> We should remember it's not just the middle east where surprisingly old fashioned views regularly harm women.


Yeah I recalled you said it was in Northern Ireland I believe? However I did read from pew forum article stating some Middle Eastern countries allow abortions to a certain extent.
www.pewforum.org: Abortion Laws Around the World
I find it interesting as it is contrast to more blatant sexism like Saudi Arabia were there was a male clergy that advocated against women driving cars due the belief it would damage their lady parts. (Though personally I think the clergy's claim is completely asinine as heck.)


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> Can I just briefly mention how absolutely backwards the stunt DICE pulled out with BFV is?
> 
> Not only they ruined the historical accuracy of a game (muh history nerd genes), and it's overall appeal by pushing an agenda over gamers
> 
> ...




I don't see a problem with it.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Well banning games that highlight and reward violence to women like GTA, or at the very least taking that portion of the game out.



Have you even played GTA? If you kill any NPC the police hunts you down and if you keep escalating the conflict the army gets involved. That ain't a reward fren


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> games like GTA should be played by adults





absolutely

positively

*no.

*
you cannot imagine the hype and fun I had playing vice and liberty city as a kid


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't see a problem with it.


of course you wouldn't



good job undermining women's progress then


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

CrookedCroc said:


> Have you even played GTA? If you kill any NPC the police hunts you down and if you keep escalating the conflict the army gets involved. That ain't a reward fren




The game encourages and highlights prostitution with more then a fair share of videos out there showing players then killing said prostitute to get their money back.

I don't think any type of gameplay like that helps women's rights for equality.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> The game encourages and highlights prostitution with more then a fair share of videos out there showing players then killing said prostitute to get their money back.



this genuinely made me fucking laugh


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> of course you wouldn't
> 
> 
> 
> good job undermining women's progress then




I don't see how allowing women on the battlefield in a video game is not promoting healthy equality for women :/


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> The game encourages and highlights prostitution with more then a fair share of videos out there showing players then killing said prostitute to get their money back.
> 
> I don't think any type of gameplay like that helps women's rights for equality.


Agreed. They should include male prostitutes to kill and rob so the game is fair.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> absolutely
> 
> positively
> 
> ...



Well, I think we should avoid arguing in favour of kids playing the most notorious of violent games, because it gives ammunition to politicians who want to ban them, because they can say 'look, people want to indoctrinate kids with killing simulators'.
It's not uncommon for politicians to blame blame school mass shootings on video game violence that children consume:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/280812064539283457
Now, of course, it's complete nonsense, but still...it's _probably reasonable_ for games with specifically adult themes to be kept out of children's grabby grabby paws. x3
Otherwise upset Moms and Pops who realise their kid is giggling as they pretend to murder prostitutes will freak out and demand those games are banned.



ZeroVoidTime said:


> Yeah I recalled you said it was in Northern Ireland I believe? However I did read from pew forum article stating some Middle Eastern countries allow abortions to a certain extent.
> www.pewforum.org: Abortion Laws Around the World
> I find it interesting as it is contrast to more blatant sexism like Saudi Arabia were there was a male clergy that advocated against women driving cars due the belief it would damage their lady parts. (Though personally I think the clergy's claim is completely asinine as heck.)



I heard that pregnancy terminations are surprisingly high in some small ethnic groups in the middle east that suffer from high rates of hereditary disorders, because historical attempts that previous empires made at wiping those groups out reduced their populations so much. 

I want to say assyrians? 
I'm not sure if that's right. I remember reading words to that effect somewhere.


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

As a woman, I don't think killing a prostitute in a game is in anyway demeaning. Not all women are prostitutes. You're not attacking women as a whole.

But that's just my personal opinion.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> Agreed. They should include male prostitutes to kill and rob so the game is fair.



Woah hold up.

If we're making a wish list here, can they be furries? Also can we replace 'kill and rob' with 'hug and boop' ?



Doodle Bunny said:


> As a woman, I don't think killing a prostitute in a game is in anyway demeaning. Not all women are prostitutes. You're not attacking women as a whole.
> 
> But that's just my personal opinion.



It depends on what sort of attitudes it encourages in boys who play those 18+ games.
I know research is well established that shows that playing games that revolve around killing don't encourage murderous attitudes, for example.

But I suppose there could still be concern that less extreme attitudes than 'murder is okay' could be transmitted- such as 'prostitutes should be viewed as lesser than other women,' for example- a  view a lot of people already hold in society.

Part of the reason that those games are meant for 18+ rather than 12 year olds, I guess.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Woah hold up.
> 
> If we're making a wish list here, can they be furries? Also can we replace 'kill and rob' with 'hug and boop' ?


I like the way you think


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Woah hold up.
> 
> If we're making a wish list here, can they be furries? Also can we replace 'kill and rob' with 'hug and boop' ?


Now hugging and booping is deeeeeeeeply offensive! Not allowed! Harrrumph!


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

So I just sort of had a long debate with myself about limiting my political posts in these threads. Mostly as I'm completely fucking clueless as of now when it comes to furry things , and I like politics so it was a good starting point for me to meet a few hommies. Yet, for better or worse I'll say my opinions and am open to all but I won't engage in any pointless arguments if they ever reach a point of anger or bs drama if someone (even myself) begins to invest too much emotion into these sort of things.

I find the feminist cause and original ideas to be a great thing. I actively support movements for women's rights and NGOs against human trafficking in the Balkan region. However, I don't find the route Western feminism has gone down as anywhere near tasteful. 'Toxic masculinity' is one of the dumbest terms I've ever heard. i find it appalling to put such a massive blame on young men who have to hear from a young age that they are toxic human beings and rapists or whatever. To me in Western countries it seems that more and more men have become completely pathetic and won't even be able to stop a horrific crime from happening because they can't even stand up for themselves let alone women around them. Not to mention in Western countries, even in Greece (an Orthodox nation) there are laws that prevent sexual discrimination. If you discriminate you will face penalty of the law. The way it should be. My problem is I don't like the active and quite open demonetization of men. Simple as that.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Dude you prolly opened a second can of worms you didn't want to deal with, unless you like seeing people tear themselves and each other apart. XD


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't see how allowing women on the battlefield in a video game is not promoting healthy equality for women :/



_[BF5 Design Director] "I don't want to tell my daughter that she can't make a character that looks like her because she's a girl"_

vs actual, sane person

"I'd prefer to tell my daughter that women weren't allowed to fight back in the day, due to certain views on their possiton in society_*, however, I can show her that that has actually changed with time, women fought for their rights and have achieved great things, and with the example of being allowed the right to fight for their country, proving that women have come a far distance, through blood, sweat and tears" *_


you're literaly depriving people of contrasting the life of women now and back in the 40s
thus, actually hurting and deminish all they've done 

and I personally find it 
very
very disrespectful


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

We're sorry @CapReMount This is now a discussion about Grand Theft Auto.

Apparently.



Julen said:


> very disrespectful



To be honest, my grandfather fought in North Africa and I suspect if he was still around he'd find the entire idea of teenage boys enjoying pretending to be him and making youtube streams where they teabag the enemy the disrespectful thing?

So you know, that horse has kinda bolted on this one.
WWII shooter games aren't made because they're respectful towards the people who fought in that war; they're basically made because kids think WWII is cool.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't see how allowing women on the battlefield in a video game is not promoting healthy equality for women :/


A disabled woman with her arm missing, having a poor excuse for a prosthetic as a replacement? That is called being "useless" on the battlefield, and it insults the very name of soldiers. They are the best of the best, not the best of the average/mediocre or the best of the disabled.

If they said "this is our take on how the Second World War played out, in an alternate dimension where rights and such were different" I wouldn't mind it, to be honest. But BFV claimed to be "historically accurate". But enough of this crap.

I find it hilarious that feminists in general don't date male feminists because a lot of them are creeps, sexually harass and are just outright assholes. Hell, they go in the opposite direction and date "sexist" men. 

www.theguardian.com: Why I won't date another 'male feminist' | Kate Iselin
www.psychologytoday.com: Feminists Think Sexist Men Are Sexier than "Woke" Men


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> A disabled woman with her arm missing, having a poor excuse for a prosthetic as a replacement? That is called being "useless" on the battlefield, and it insults the very name of soldiers. They are the best of the best, not the best of the average/mediocre or the best of the disabled.
> 
> If they said "this is our take on how the Second World War played out, in an alternate dimension where rights and such were different" I wouldn't mind it, to be honest. But BFV claimed to be "historically accurate". But enough of this crap.
> 
> ...



this is so byotiful



Spoiler: warning, very offensive meme


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> this is so byotiful
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: warning, very offensive meme




There you go with more Alt-right undertones.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> I find it hilarious that feminists in general don't date male feminists because a lot of them are creeps, sexually harass and are just outright assholes.


It's because it's unattractive behavior. I've said it here previously it's dishonest intentions. We all have BS detectors, and can know when someone isn't true with their feelings. It's creepy as fuck. Presuming you're straight don't you get red flags from women who mostly have guy friends. I certainly do.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> To be honest, my grandfather fought in North Africa and I suspect if he was still around he'd find the entire idea of teenage boys enjoying pretending to be him and making youtube streams where they teabag the enemy the disrespectful thing?



the disrespect part was more of a sarcasting thing 

and weird flex but ok


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> There you go with more Alt-right undertones.


EXTRA EXTRA! 

SARCASM IS ALT-RIGHT! 

EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT!


I'm libertarian you dumb fuck, stop assuming I'm alt-right, how dare you assume such thing, deeply offensive really

gosh


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> It's because it's unattractive behavior. I've said it here previously it's dishonest intentions. We all have BS detectors, and can know when someone isn't true with their feelings. It's creepy as fuck. Presuming you're straight don't you get red flags from women who mostly have guy friends. I certainly do.



I mean...people can be friends with whoever they like?

I don't think being a friend with guys makes a woman a creep. Why would you think that anyway?



Julen said:


> EXTRA EXTRA!
> 
> SARCASM IS ALT-RIGHT!
> 
> ...



You might find it easier to get people to see your points of view if you don't call them 'dumb fucks'. 

Communication is a two-way street, so if you find that your use of sarcasm means people don't really know what you sincerely think, it might just mean that your sarcasm isn't easy enough to detect.
It can be hard for people to pick up sarcasm on the internet- where every possible view you'd imagine could _only_ be held as a joke is _actually held sincerely by somebody out there_. 

Poe's law.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> It's because it's unattractive behavior. I've said it here previously it's dishonest intentions. We all have BS detectors, and can know when someone isn't true with their feelings. It's creepy as fuck. Presuming you're straight don't you get red flags from women who mostly have guy friends. I certainly do.


Exactly. They want to get laid, and will do everything to get it. Only problem is, their behaviour is atrocious and off-putting as hell, even for other guys. As a male you are a lot more attractive if you lead, not follow. You know, strength of character, and strength in general?



Doulyboy said:


> There you go with more Alt-right undertones.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

That is a handsome Pepe


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

A rare pepe too

I'll trade you 5 feels guys and 1 spurdo for it


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> We're sorry @CapReMount This is now a discussion about Grand Theft Auto.
> 
> Apparently.
> 
> ...


Whopdeedoo. I lost close family friends in wars and terror attacks. Most of my closest friends grew up in the Yugoslav wars. I fortunately was not there then, but a lot of fucked up things happened around back in the 90s. I've seen too many of the scars from these wars. It's still ugly to this day. A lot of people lost their lives who really didn't have to. If a video game depicts this it's fine. It happened. Not to mention this whole thing about war is completely unrelated to feminism.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Exactly. They want to get laid, and will do everything to get it. Only problem is, their behaviour is atrocious and off-putting as hell, even for other guys. As a male you are a lot more attractive if you lead, not follow. You know, strength of character, and strength in general?




I don't find that funny.

Why can't people just respect that the creator of pepe wanted him to die out due to his usage as an alt-right symbol?


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't find that funny.
> 
> Why can't people just respect that the creator of pepe wanted him to die out due to his usage as an alt-right symbol?


Do you feel dehumanized =p


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

I guess what we're seeing here is the 'youtube-isation' of an entire topic.

You basically can't discuss feminism anymore without discussions about video games (which let's face it don't really matter that much, and which aren't just going to keel over and die because a woman somewhere expressed an opinion- they're a multi billion dollar industry so relax guys- they are basically safe).

The entire topic of feminism is essentially just being reduced to a single issue that generates a lot of youtube clicks.



insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> Do you feel dehumanized =p



Do you want to make the person you're aiming this question at feel angry and upset?

Maybe this isn't the nicest thing to do. We should all try to treat other people with the same sorts of attitudes we'd want to be, and none of us would really enjoy people trying to troll us, would we now?


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> don't find that funny


What about HONK HONK Pepe? Clowns make me XD


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

Oh boy do I regret entering this chat.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

CrookedCroc said:


> What about HONK HONK Pepe? Clowns make me XD



:/

The casual approach to such a toxic symbol here is very disturbing.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> You might find it easier to get people to see your points of view if you don't call them 'dumb fucks'.



I don't think I was trying to make a point there 

just tired of people *assuming *stuff

hm

also reminds me of certain group that doesn't like when people assume things

_hm hm




Doulyboy said:



			his usage as an alt-right symbol?
		
Click to expand...


So my girlfriend, who's LGBT and advocates for women's rights btw, is alt-right, since she also uses pepe



Spoiler: interesting.yes














_


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Do you guys enjoy pepes because you really think they're funny?
If you do, I'm glad you have something you enjoy, but they're not really relevant to the topic of this thread, so maybe you could enjoy them in a private chat or something?

Do you guys enjoy posting pepes because you imagine that they'll make other people upset and angry?
If so, do you think this is a part of your personality that you really want to indulge? Would you like it if people found something that made you upset and then posted it en-masse whenever you were around?


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

CrookedCroc said:


> What about HONK HONK Pepe? Clowns make me XD


honk


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Women earn less money because of the choices they make


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Women earn less money because of the choices they make


the absolute madlad


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Exactly. They want to get laid, and will do everything to get it. Only problem is, their behaviour is atrocious and off-putting as hell, even for other guys. As a male you are a lot more attractive if you lead, not follow. You know, strength of character, and strength in general?


It is. No one likes to deal with 'fake' behavior. Especially feminists which is ironic.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Women earn less money because of the choices they make




That's extremely bias and totally not true.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Well I hope this can lighten the mood =p


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> That's extremely bias and totally not true.



So I'm sorry Douly, but the truth doesn't matter here. 

What matters to these guys posting is bullying you (and yes this is bullying guys; look at yourselves).

They find the idea of making you unhappy entertaining. They don't really care about anything else at the moment.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> Well I hope this can lighten the mood =p


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> It is. No one likes to deal with 'fake' behavior. Especially feminists which is ironic.



I hate to admit this, but I am slightly paranoid of men that are friendly around me. I've had too many guys that have tried to date me when I don't have the same feelings. It's so awkward when I don't even feel a platonic click.


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Do you guys enjoy pepes because you really think they're funny?
> If you do, I'm glad you have something you enjoy, but they're not really relevant to the topic of this thread, so maybe you could enjoy them in a private chat or something?
> 
> Do you guys enjoy posting pepes because you imagine that they'll make other people upset and angry?
> If so, do you think this is a part of your personality that you really want to indulge? Would you like it if people found something that made you upset and then posted it en-masse whenever you were around?





Fallowfox said:


> So I'm sorry Douly, but the truth doesn't matter here.
> 
> What matters to these guys posting is bullying you (and yes this is bullying guys; look at yourselves).
> 
> They find the idea of making you unhappy entertaining. They don't really care about anything else at the moment.


Here is your answer:
Troll - TV Tropes


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> That's extremely bias and totally not true.



let me guess.... its "the evil patriarchy oppressing them"

who exactly is forcing women to take more time off work, less overtime, lower paying careers, and easier work schedules?


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> That's extremely bias and totally not true.


Dude no one is here to bully you. Furries are pretty much at the low end of the food chain when it comes to internet BS. I'll welcome you or any other human being with open arms as I've been taught. Even if we disagree, these are my values. It's about learning there are differing opinions and being okay with them.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> So I'm sorry Douly, but the truth doesn't matter here.
> 
> What matters to these guys posting is bullying you (and yes this is bullying guys; look at yourselves).
> 
> They find the idea of making you unhappy entertaining. They don't really care about anything else at the moment.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> That's extremely bias and totally not true.


www.huffingtonpost.com: What Makes the Nordic Countries Gender Equality Winners? | HuffPost

In a free society, people are free to choose. 

Hjernevask - Wikipedia





Welcome to the gender equality paradox. The more equal the genders are in terms of rights, opportunities, etc, the more unequal they are in terms of jobs, social status, marital status, etc. The more equal the genders are, the more unequal the outcome, because different biases in choice.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

This thread says a lot about our society







*Bottom text*​


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> let me guess.... its "the evil patriarchy oppressing them"
> 
> who exactly is forcing women to take more time off work, less overtime, lower paying careers, and easier work schedules?




They have to take time off work for childbirth, I don't see that as a problem. 

Unless of course you yourself find that favoritism, which you probably do.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> you yourself find that favoritism


It's not like you'd find other things that "benefit" men as favoritism


we all got our own biases, so it's a bit hard to find an universal truth

note that I'm not exactly defending his position

just in case


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Mar 10, 2019)

I refuse to fall for this (amongst many others) current idiocy that runs rampant across every spectrum I turn to look at/away-from, in today's society.
I don't give a damn what type of plumbing you might have.  Feminism/Masculism, etc., are just another two catch-words that are used to instigate stupidity.
Prejudice against someone merely because of their plumbing isn't right.
Prejudice against someone because they can't do something may be valid.  I'll use this example because I've seen it personally and feel qualified to speak about it:  women in the military.
I love the movie 'G.I.Jane' (Demi Moore, you vixen you!).   While in the Marines, I trained with W.M.'s (Women Marines.  How original, I know.).  Intellectually, the WM's were usually far more intelligent than the average male Marine.  They scored higher on tests, followed the guidelines and rules when in the field better (even more notable?  they knew when NOT to follow said rules to achieve a better result, more often than the males)...
Physically?
I never came across more than one, perhaps two female Marines that could hope to compete with the males in this area.  It wasn't due to lack of drive, ambition, skill-set, etc..  It came down to simple muscle mass and stamina.  
Does this mean women shouldn't be allowed to serve in their Countries' military?  Hell no!  Does it mean there are some M.O.S.'s that female soldiers should NOT pursue, because of the simple biological fact that most females are not as strong as most males?  Hell yes it does.
For those few who CAN hold their own, physically?  Let 'em!!!

There are assholes across the spectrum of humanity.  Male or female doesn't matter.
When I hold a door open to let someone else enter/exit an establishment, that is me following the simple social courtesies I happen to hold dear, and a way of showing mutual respect for other people.
I have had 'Feminists' make rude comments when I've done this (only in the big cities.  go figure.), and I just chuckle, and then go about my business.  It's their problem, not mine.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> www.huffingtonpost.com: What Makes the Nordic Countries Gender Equality Winners? | HuffPost
> 
> In a free society, people are free to choose.
> 
> ...


Nice watch so far


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Then we'd have to ban everything from Metroid to Mass Effect to Empire Earth to even Dungeon Keeper 2. We are looking at a ban of like.. 95% in total of games. It's not feasible, and you'd be pissing off just about every demographic you can think of. Feminism is defined as equality between men and women, not supremacy of women over men. That means a man will be treated as a woman and vice versa in games. They are nothing more than a character, especially in a fighting game such as for instance Tekken.
> 
> You can't ban violence towards women in fighting games such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, etc. They naturally have women in them, and it's kinda.. Stupid to say that women can't fight too. May as well say that women are fragile and needs catering to with that kind of mindset. Ever heard the term "soft bigotry of lower expectations"?


Wait, I agree with Yaka on something?!

Games like Battlefield 5 have never been big on historical accuracy. Hell, US soldiers regularly take the place of litteraly every other mitary all too often. And battlefield 5 actually did gangbusters for sales, but came below impossible investor expectations. 

Feminism is great, but Terfs and whatever Tumbler considers feminism is a special kind of cancer. I like well written female game protagonists, especially if they are badass. I also personally understand the dissonance when playing a character of an opposite gender to your own; though it's more negligible in FPS games. Playing female frames in Warframe is.....weird. 

And ya, gaming is a male dominated hobby rife with misogyny in its subculture due to having been reborn as a boys toy following its death at the hands of THE GAME THAT WILL NOT BE NAMED. That's changing, and there is a lot of cringe and reactionism in the camps of progress and stagnation respectively. 

What worries me is that as society progresses, advertisers will latch on to these social movements and be cringy about it. And the backlash is more effective than the original adds, which means there is an incentive for performance allyism of the cringiest kind.


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> I refuse to fall for this (amongst many others) current idiocy that runs rampant across every spectrum I turn to look at/away-from, in today's society.
> I don't give a damn what type of plumbing you might have.  Feminism/Masculism, etc., are just another two catch-words that are used to instigate stupidity.
> Prejudice against someone merely because of their plumbing isn't right.
> Prejudice against someone because they can't do something may be valid.  I'll use this example because I've seen it personally and feel qualified to speak about it:  women in the military.
> ...



this has to be one of the greatest things I've heard in a while 

thank you



Spoiler: also






Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Marines


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> This thread says a lot about our society
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, this isn't epic


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

Also, 
Virginia Hall - Wikipedia

So ya, there is a historic precedent for a badass woman with a prosthetic.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

This thread went wrong in the time it took to type my response between helping customers....


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Also,
> Virginia Hall - Wikipedia
> 
> So ya, there is a historic precedent for a badass woman with a prosthetic.


and there was also an absolute madlad with a sword and a fucking longbow and I've yet to see it in game


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

CrookedCroc said:


> Ok, this isn't epic


How dare you


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> and there was also an absolute madlad with a sword and a fucking longbow and I've yet to see it in game



Well, maybe it would be great if that was in a game right?

I think sometimes people miss the point that video games are for fun. Having angry twitter rants isn't very fun!


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Well, maybe it would be great if that was in a game right?
> 
> I think sometimes people miss the point that video games are for fun. Having angry twitter rants isn't very fun!



There are as many opinions as definitions of fun

sOOooOooOOOooO

nyeh


muh accuracy


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Well, maybe it would be great if that was in a game right?
> 
> I think sometimes people miss the point that video games are for fun. Having angry twitter rants isn't very fun!


I'm looking forward to the 10th rehash of my realistic man shooter.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

This thread needs a mod, but I don't know who to tag since I just got back from a month long ban.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I think sometimes people miss the point that video games are for fun.



Seems like someone hasn't played Winnie-the-Pooh Home run Derby


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Julen said:


> There are as many opinions as definitions of fun
> 
> sOOooOooOOOooO
> 
> ...



Well, if you enjoy that I suppose buy a different game (or if you're me and you're rubbish at games, buy something entirely different instead!)

It's a bit like different flavours of ice cream. Maybe a company serves up Licorice flavour and you normally like Strawberry. But there's plenty of people who sell strawberry ice cream, so both people who enjoy strawberry and licorice can get what they like.

They shouldn't need to shout at each other about whether Licorice or Strawberry is better.

Unless of course they think Vanilla is best. Then may god have mercy on their souls.



CrookedCroc said:


> Seems like someone hasn't played Winnie-the-Pooh Home run Derby
> View attachment 56664



The main thing I got from this game is that I want to ship Eeyore with Tigger :3


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Also,
> Virginia Hall - Wikipedia
> 
> So ya, there is a historic precedent for a badass woman with a prosthetic.


Impressive and inspiring to see a women with a leg amputation help bring down the Nazi's the S***bags that look down upon disabilities.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

CrookedCroc said:


> Seems like someone hasn't played Winnie-the-Pooh Home run Derby
> View attachment 56664


Don't talk shit about Eor >:V


----------



## Julen (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Well, if you enjoy that I suppose buy a different game (or if you're me and you're rubbish at games, buy something entirely different instead!)




well that's what I've been doing so far really lol

My WW2 American paratrooper kit is done 
My Vietnam era USGI Aircav one is done

But the emphasis on keeping things accurate, _specially when they've been claimed to be both accurate and inmersive,_ is still there

I've always liked BF, but seeing it go down like this was both annoying, and deceiving


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Wait, I agree with Yaka on something?!
> 
> Games like Battlefield 5 have never been big on historical accuracy. Hell, US soldiers regularly take the place of literally every other military all too often. And battlefield 5 actually did gangbusters for sales, but came below impossible investor expectations.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of feminism. I don't however agree with how TERFS and tumblrites have ruined the good name of it, and they are unfortunately the majority of the movement today. They are not for equality, they are for supremacy. Authority. And I am not interested in being treated as inferior because I have my genitals on the outside. 

Egalitarianism in general automatically include feminism as Egalitarians in general are for equal rights.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 10, 2019)

I am just dropping this as a general reminder to all, because I recieved reports about attempts to derail this thread.

Keep the thread on-topic.  That goes out to everyone.  The title of the thread is how people feel about feminism.

If you're posting about a different topic than that, do it it in a more appropriate thread.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

SSJ3Mewtwo said:


> I am just dropping this as a general reminder to all, because I recieved reports about attempts to derail this thread.
> 
> Keep the thread on-topic.  That goes out to everyone.  The title of the thread is how people feel about feminism.
> 
> If you're posting about a different topic than that, do it it in a more appropriate thread.





I went alittle off stray myself, thanks for the reminder^^


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Since I mentioned it before on the forum, when I wanted to be heterosexual, and had a girlfriend, she was a feminist. 

We split every bill, so the way my wallet feels about feminism is _heavier_. ;D


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Also,
> Virginia Hall - Wikipedia
> 
> So ya, there is a historic precedent for a badass woman with a prosthetic.



Do you have a prosthetic limb kink?


----------



## Aznig (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> We have to respect that it's a different culture, but it would be nice to see some change in that direction yes.



Usually don’t get in on these threads but I saw this posted regarding feminism being needed in the Middle East:

Ummmmmm.... how about no???? I’m sorry but I refuse to respect _any _culture that advocates for the abuse and mistreatment of women or any other group.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Feminism overall was meant to empower generations and create equal rights between the sexes. There are some feminists out that that give it a bad name and don’t fight for things that really matter.Like MGTOW who don’t want women in their lives, there are some feminists that reject all men and want no men in their lives as well. Like MGTOW who don’t fight for equal rights for men, some feminists don’t fight for equal rights for women, only for stupid causes.

The difference between MGTOW and feminism is that in MGTOW, the majority of people there believe women are incapable of telling the truth and should rid themselves from women completely other than for sex. Feminism may turn into self loathing idiots who do the same thing toward men, it may turn into WGTOW. So my thoughts for feminism, they need to go back to their roots and focus on things that really matter. There are feminists who are extremely intelligent but intelligence doesn’t go very far when a loud minority won’t shut their trap to let them speak. The good feminists need to shut the vocal minority of bad femininests and keep those idiots from brainwashing females into self-loathing themselves and making the cycle continue.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Aznig said:


> Usually don’t get in on these threads but I saw this posted regarding feminism being needed in the Middle East:
> 
> Ummmmmm.... how about no???? I’m sorry but I refuse to respect _any_



So the problem is, Aznig, if we try to make the argument to people from the middle East, that they should adopt greater rights for women- but we also make it clear that we don't respect their cultural motes in any way, we're unlikely to get a warm reception.

They'll just ask 'why should I listen to somebody who doesn't respect any of my culture's achievements?'

and it's not true either I guess; there are plenty of things about middle eastern culture that we can compliment, and which deserve to be complimented, and a little bit of sugar (or _Sukkar_; the word sugar is an example of something we get from the middle east! ;D ) can only make the medicine go down easier.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I went alittle off stray myself, thanks for the reminder^^


Sorry for posting the Pepe memes. 

I didn't get an answer from you though, in my previous posts.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Aznig said:


> Usually don’t get in on these threads but I saw this posted regarding feminism being needed in the Middle East:
> 
> Ummmmmm.... how about no???? I’m sorry but I refuse to respect _any _culture that advocates for the abuse and mistreatment of women or any other group.




That's quite regressive thinking on a culture much different then yours though.

We have to respect those boundaries, and do our best to lead by example here in the West.
Things are getting better, albeit not at a pace we would all like.


----------



## Aznig (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> So the problem is, Aznig, if we try to make the argument to people from the middle East, that they should adopt greater rights for women- but we also make it clear that we don't respect their cultural motes in any way, we're unlikely to get a warm reception.
> 
> They'll just ask 'why should I listen to somebody who doesn't respect any of my culture's achievements?'
> 
> and it's not true either I guess; there are plenty of things about middle eastern culture that we can compliment, and which deserve to be complimented, and a little bit of sugar can only make the medicine go down easier.



I agree that we should handle them with respect and kindness, for the greater good, lest imenent danger requires other action. However, I personally will never respect those cultures. As a woman myself, it makes me (rightfully) uncomfortable and disgusted.


----------



## Doodle Bunny (Mar 10, 2019)

Back on the subject of feminism. I want to be respected for the skills I've worked hard at. Not because I happen to have a vagina.


----------



## Aznig (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> That's quite regressive thinking on a culture much different then yours though.
> 
> We have to respect those boundaries and lead by the best example as we can here in the West.
> Things are getting better, albeit not at a pace we would all like.



Nope, not really. Sorry, I don’t wish to respect a culture that advocates for blatant human rights violations. Should we have accepted Nazi Germany because “it’s their culture?”

No. Plain and simple.

I wouldn’t ever be cruel or intentionally belittle anyone of the culture but I will also never accept it as being a norm.


----------



## 1234554321 (Mar 10, 2019)




----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Sorry for posting the Pepe memes.
> 
> I didn't get an answer from you though, in my previous posts.



It's ok^^

I'm sorry it went quite off topic, I'm not sure which one your regarding to.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Aznig said:


> I agree that we should handle them with respect and kindness, for the greater good, lest imenent danger requires other action. However, I personally will never respect those cultures. As a woman myself, it makes me (rightfully) uncomfortable and disgusted.



I think we don't have to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'.

I can respect the middle east's contributions to architecture and mathematics, for example, while also being very critical of widespread attitudes to the rights of women, gay people and apostates.
Some people in the Middle east would, if they heard me arguing for more rights for women, just say 'you can't listen to him; his comments are motivated by a hatred of all things we believe and cherish,'
If it's clear that I don't have a disapproving attitude to their culture in general, then it's easier for that argument to be dismantled.

Basically imagine it like you're an ambassador from the future talking to people in the West from the nineteenth century and trying to persuade them to adopt feminist values. None of us view European culture as something we can 'never respect', we understand that while it came from a place where women had few rights, that actually it was possible to adapt it- rather than throwing it all away and starting from scratch.


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I went alittle off stray myself, thanks for the reminder^^


Same here but besides that I think feminism is okay and is like any other human rights groups can have extremists.


Fallowfox said:


> So the problem is, Aznig, if we try to make the argument to people from the middle East, that they should adopt greater rights for women- but we also make it clear that we don't respect their cultural motes in any way, we're unlikely to get a warm reception.
> 
> They'll just ask 'why should I listen to somebody who doesn't respect any of my culture's achievements?'
> 
> and it's not true either I guess; there are plenty of things about middle eastern culture that we can compliment, and which deserve to be complimented, and a little bit of sugar (or _Sukkar_; the word sugar is an example of something we get from the middle east! ;D ) can only make the medicine go down easier.


By all means the Middle East historically contributed to modern medicine and mathematics which our society use in order thrive and be prosperous.


Fallowfox said:


> I think we don't have to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'.
> 
> I can respect the middle east's contributions to architecture and mathematics, for example, while also being very critical of widespread attitudes to the rights of women, gay people and apostates.
> Some people in the Middle east would, if they heard me arguing for more rights for women, just say 'you can't listen to him; his comments are motivated by a hatred of all things we believe and cherish,'
> ...


Exactly.... (I'm late to posting my post......)
.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> Feminism overall was meant to empower generations and create equal rights between the sexes. There are some feminists out that that give it a bad name and don’t fight for things that really matter.Like MGTOW who don’t want women in their lives, there are some feminists that reject all men and want no men in their lives as well. Like MGTOW who don’t fight for equal rights for men, some feminists don’t fight for equal rights for women, only for stupid causes.
> 
> The difference between MGTOW and feminism is that in MGTOW, the majority of people there believe,women are incapable of telling the truth and should rid themselves from women completely other than for sex. Feminism may turn into self loathing idiots who do the same thing toward men, it may turn into WGTOW. So my thoughts for feminism, they need to go back to their roots and focus on things that really matter. There are feminists who are extremely intelligent but intelligence doesn’t go very far when a loud minority won’t shut their trap to let them speak. The good feminists need to shut the vocal minority of bad femininests and keep those idiots from brainwashing females into self-loathing themselves and making the cycle continue.



It's difficult to make this argument while preserving freedom of expression though.

I don't necessarily believe that a vocal minority represents feminism; I think that a youtube boogeyman is what many teenage boys are confronted with when they learn about feminism.

But if there _was _a vocal man-hating minority, you'd succeed by making better arguments and winning them over, rather than shutting them up, wouldn't you? (few feminists would regard shutting any group of women up as a particularly feminist aim)


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Aznig said:


> Nope, not really. Sorry, I don’t wish to respect a culture that advocates for blatant human rights violations. Should we have accepted Nazi Germany because “it’s their culture?”
> 
> No. Plain and simple.
> 
> I wouldn’t ever be cruel or intentionally belittle anyone of the culture but I will also never accept it as being a norm.




I don't think you can compare Nazi Germany to cultural differences in the Muslim world:/


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> It's ok^^
> 
> I'm sorry it went quite off topic, I'm not sure which one your regarding to.


Had to look things up as I forgot, actually. But here.

forums.furaffinity.net: How do you feel about feminism?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

If you specifically want to persuade people from the middle east to adopt feminist values as well, one of the helpful things to do might be to call-up examples of women from its history that had great achievements or status. 

Because then the idea of empowered women isn't some alien western idea- but it's more like a realisation that actually that impetus can come from within. 

So you know, bring up the egyptian Cleopatra- _naval friggin' commander_. Or Shajar al-Durr, who was an instrumental part in Egypt's defence from European Crusaders and helped establish a dynasty that would see-off the Mongols' Golden horde.  

Or you could use a modern example like Maryam Mirzakhani, an Iranian woman who won the highest medal in Mathematics- showing that maths isn't just a boy's thing: 
Maryam Mirzakhani - Wikipedia


----------



## Aznig (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't think you can compare Nazi Germany to cultural differences in the Muslim world:/



Cultural differences that consist of treating women as inferior. 

I’m actually pretty shocked that there are people defending this. Yikes.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Aznig said:


> Cultural differences that consist of treating women as inferior.
> 
> I’m actually pretty shocked that there are people defending this. Yikes.



I don't think he's defending the parts of their culture that see women as inferior. I think he's arguing that we should regard those specific parts as mutable- that changes to the culture can be achieved without having to abandon the entire thing. 

Because we're not going to persuade many people that they should walk away from their whole culture.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't think you can compare Nazi Germany to cultural differences in the Muslim world:/


What about how many Islamic nations tax Jews and Christians for their faith, or in other instances outright kill them? What about how most Islamic countries make homosexuality a crime, and often punishable by death in some cases? Some countries still practice slavery. Oh, let's not forget how it's permissible to rape a women if she is not fully covered in some Islamic societies.

These horrible things are still happening right now, and while they may not have been as catastrophic or violent as the reign of the Nazis, it's still cruel and inhumane.

I mean, I know such cultures have made great contributions, but are we gonna give this a pass because of that?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> What about how many Islamic nations tax Jews and Christians for their faith, or in other instances outright kill them? What about how most Islamic countries make homosexuality a crime, and often punishable by death in some cases? Some countries still practice slavery. Oh, let's not forget how it's permissible to rape a women if she is not fully covered in some Islamic societies.
> 
> These horrible things are still happening right now, and while they may not have been as catastrophic or violent as the reign of the Nazis, it's still cruel and inhumane.



Nobody's arguing these things should ever be regarded as forgiveable or permissible (I  in particular would like to be able to go to places like Morocco...if I could afford it, but I feel alienated by the fact that being gay is a crime there) .
We should always try to emphasise that hateful attitudes aren't the corner stones of the islamic culture- but actually more like cracks that threaten its integrity. 

That way we might persuade people that they need to_ patch those cracks up._ 

If you accidentally convince somebody that hatred forms the pillars of their civilisation, they'll want to defend those pillars, rather than replace them.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> What about how many Islamic nations tax Jews and Christians for their faith, or in other instances outright kill them? What about how most Islamic countries make homosexuality a crime, and often punishable by death in some cases? Some countries still practice slavery. Oh, let's not forget how it's permissible to rape a women if she is not fully covered in some Islamic societies.
> 
> These horrible things are still happening right now, and while they may not have been as catastrophic or violent as the reign of the Nazis, it's still cruel and inhumane.
> 
> I mean, I know such cultures have made great contributions, but are we gonna give this a pass because of that?




I don't know, it just sounds like an excuse to be islamophobic to me.

We here in the West are privileged to be where we are as far as advancement is concerned to women and minority rights.
The Muslim world is an entirely different culture, with it's own timeline for progression, it's happening slowly.

I think we need to respect it.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> I don't know, it just sounds like an excuse to be islamophobic to me.


Oh for f@#$ sake...


----------



## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> What about how many Islamic nations tax Jews and Christians for their faith, or in other instances outright kill them? What about how most Islamic countries make homosexuality a crime, and often punishable by death in some cases? Some countries still practice slavery. Oh, let's not forget how it's permissible to rape a women if she is not fully covered in some Islamic societies.
> 
> These horrible things are still happening right now, and while they may not have been as catastrophic or violent as the reign of the Nazis, it's still cruel and inhumane.
> 
> I mean, I know such cultures have made great contributions, but are we gonna give this a pass because of that?


So what about Christians and Jewish that have done the same thing to Muslims and other minorities? Truth is all human societies have done something horrible to another groups various reasons.
Edit: For the record I am not mad at you nor am I accusing you of being racist.


----------



## Aznig (Mar 10, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> So what about Christians and Jewish that have done the same thing to Muslims and other minorities? Truth is all human societies have done something horrible to another groups various reasons.



They shouldn’t be tolerated either. 




Doulyboy said:


> I don't know, it just sounds like an excuse to be islamophobic to me.
> 
> We here in the West are privileged to be where we are as far as advancement is concerned to women and minority rights.
> The Muslim world is an entirely different culture, with it's own set of timeline for progression.I think we need to respect it.



Still going on with the idea of respecting heinous acts? Nice.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> So what about Christians and Jewish that have done the same thing to Muslims and other minorities? Truth is all human societies have done something horrible to another groups various reasons.


I'm not fine with that either, but it's *not *them that are *currently* doing these acts. I won't sit by and be fine with one culture or religion practicing it because another one did it too at some point.

I condemn all acts that go against basic civil and human rights. My concern is that there are *still *some places in the world that are unsafe for people like me due to my sexuality or lack of submission to their religion.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> It's difficult to make this argument while preserving freedom of expression though.
> 
> I don't necessarily believe that a vocal minority represents feminism; I think that a youtube boogeyman is what many teenage boys are confronted with when they learn about feminism.
> 
> But if there _was _a vocal man-hating minority, you'd succeed by making better arguments and winning them over, rather than shutting them up, wouldn't you? (few feminists would regard shutting any group of women up as a particularly feminist aim)



I don’t think the vocal minority represents it but are the image that comes to mind when thinking about feminism right now. Whether we like it or not, it’s a very common stereotype which is why it needs to be addressed by feminists themselves. 

I also believe in freedom expression and that freedom of expression can be used to combat the loud minority that is plaguing the movement.


----------



## Aznig (Mar 10, 2019)

Let me pose a question to those that are defending this behavior:

Do you respect the Westboro Baptist Church?
They don’t kill anyone. We shouldn’t be rude to them for saying awful shit like ‘God Hates Fags’ by that logic, right?

Or would you be quick to criticize them?
Both are hateful groups that shouldn’t be tolerated. I don’t have a problem with those who choose to follow that religion while being fair and ethical. I also do not believe they deserve hatred or cruelty for practicing this religion. However, I will repeatedly make it clear that I do not find it acceptable that people defend this behavior.

If I were to live in an Islamic majority country, I’d be forced to cover myself, potentially raped, and ultimately would find my life in danger because not only am I a woman, but I am in a gay relationship and those are not tolerated.
If I must fear for my life, I don’t believe it is a culture that is (in its entirety) precious nor worth preserving.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> I'm not fine with that either, but it's *not *them that are *currently* doing these acts. I won't sit by and be fine with one culture or religion doing it because another one did it too at some point.



Nobody's arguing that you should. We're arguing that you catch more flies with honey. 

If we went back in time for example, and tried to convince nineteenth century Europeans to give women the vote, we wouldn't begin by telling them all about how horrid we believe their culture is, because they'd stop listening to us.


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

> _Redacted by staff._


The religion actually started out on the premise of conquering another nation. Lol


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

Doodle Bunny said:


> Back on the subject of feminism. I want to be respected for the skills I've worked hard at. Not because I happen to have a vagina.



Feminists want respect for women not in the sense I respect great artists on FA, but in the sense of the respect involved in basic human dignity. Especially when it comes to toxic environments like gamer culture. I've heard people say some of the most egregious shit to and about women in that social sphere. 

Feminists want sociatal equality and equity for women, and an end to institutions and subcultural elements of sexism. Many of those cultural elements are not exclusively harmful to women as well, because for all sexism leaves women behind economicly and socialy it leaves men with a toxic framework for masculinity that is wholly destructive to our physical and mental well being. 



Anon Raccoon said:


> Do you have a prosthetic limb kink?



I have a near fetish for history from WWI to WWII. 




If your feminism involves telling people how they can and cannot dress, it is shit feminism. That's how we get burkha bans, and it feeds into xenophobia which culminates in violence either on part of the state in culture policing, or by individuals. It's entirely possible to respect much of middle eastern cultureS while overturning the sexist side of it, because cultureS in the middle east are oh so much more than that.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> I don’t think the vocal minority represents it but are the image that comes to mind when thinking about feminism right now. Whether we like it or not, it’s a very common stereotype which is why it needs to be addressed by feminists themselves.
> 
> I also believe in freedom expression and that freedom of expression can be used to combat the loud minority that is plaguing the movement.



I think it's Youtube's fault, basically. 

Teenage boys who find it difficult to get girlfriends lap up videos that tell them that it's not their fault, it's because women's minds have been possessed by some irrational scourge that means boys can't possibly meet their impossible expectations for how a man should behave. 

So the boys click the videos a lot and that means that's what we're all presented with when we go on the internet and google feminism.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Nobody's arguing that you should. We're arguing that you catch more flies with honey.
> 
> If we went back in time for example, and tried to convince nineteenth century Europeans to give women the vote, we wouldn't begin by telling them all about how horrid we believe their culture is, because they'd stop listening to us.


I welcome the idea of civilly negotiating with others in a way that respects them without giving them a feeling of alienation from us or feeling insulted. It seems you and me are on the same page for wanting the world to be a nicer place for people, so I appreciate your take on this.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

KimberVaile said:


> The religion actually started out on the premise of conquering another nation. Lol


The religion  started out on the premise that all your gods are shit, the abrahamic god is the one true god, and this us the last chance said god is giving you to stop being a bunch of shitgibbons. Like all faiths it has gone through periods of tolerance and intolerance. It has petty war inducing schisms like any religion. And occasionally those who want something use Islam to manipulate the populace into aquiring it for them like any religion.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Feminists want respect for women not in the sense I respect great artists on FA, but in the sense of the respect involved in basic human dignity. Especially when it comes to toxic environments like gamer culture. I've heard people say some of the most egregious shit to and about women in that social sphere.
> 
> Feminists want sociatal equality and equity for women, and an end to institutions and subcultural elements of sexism. Many of those cultural elements are not exclusively harmful to women as well, because for all sexism leaves women behind economicly and socialy it leaves men with a toxic framework for masculinity that is wholly destructive to our physical and mental well being.
> 
> ...




Exactly this ^

Thank you Misha, those are great points.
Why better then I could've worded it.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> It’s true. I’ve read quite a bit of the Koran because I wanted to find out whether people were over exaggerating what was in it. They were not exaggerating XD. I can’t really talk about what’s in it because the content is too gruesome and disgusting  (it would not be allowed on this forum).
> 
> That is one problem I do have with modern feminism. There are feminists fighting for Muslim women to be on beauty magazines in the U.S  but *they aren’t fighting for Muslims women’s human rights in countries all across the world! Wtf*



They are though, Cheeto.

I hate to quote an example of the British Royal Family, but here's Meghan Markle (Our princess and a self-described Feminist) in Morocco, promoting girls' education.
Harry and Meghan visit Morocco girls' school


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The religion  started out on the premise that all your gods are shit, the abrahamic god is the one true god, and this us the last chance said god is giving you to stop being a bunch of shitgibbons. Like all faiths it has gone through periods of tolerance and intolerance. It has petty war inducing schisms like any religion. And occasionally those who want something use Islam to manipulate the populace into aquiring it for them like any religion.



A little hyperbolic, but sure, if you want to get specific, it supposedly existed before Mohamed. Though a big part of what he was known for was conquering Mecca from the  Quraysh along with quite a great deal of other outlying territory. The expansion under the name of Islam only progressed from there, when the religion was still relatively young. So in my subjective opinion, keeping in mind Mohamed, the prophet of the religion himself engaged in wars for territory, yeah I'd say my impression of the religion errs on aggression.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I think it's Youtube's fault, basically.
> 
> Teenage boys who find it difficult to get girlfriends lap up videos that tell them that it's not their fault, it's because women's minds have been possessed by some irrational scourge that means boys can't possibly meet their impossible expectations for how a man should behave.
> 
> So the boys click the videos a lot and that means that's what we're all presented with when we go on the internet and google feminism.



Nah I don’t think it’s just YouTube. I’ve come across some crazy feminists in real life that tried to make me wear a pussy hat. I’m not sexist or anything but I do not want to wear a pussy hat in public XD. My older brother was at a book store and the cashier was also a crazy feminist who started complaining that he was a white male and that he’s the devil (because he’s in the military). All he asked for was for a piece of paper and then she started flipping out on him about how he was a while male. It all depends on where you live and how you come across them.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

The actual goals of the "modern" feminist movement make no sense to me. They already have equal rights under the law, and equal pay for equal work.

Its a classic case of "WHAT DO YOU WANT!?"
being answered with "ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT!"
all western feminism is is a bunch of bored women who badly want something to complain about


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> It’s true. I’ve read quite a bit of the Koran because I wanted to find out whether people were over exaggerating what was in it. They were not exaggerating XD. I can’t really talk about what’s in it because the content is too gruesome and disgusting  (it would not be allowed on this forum).
> 
> That is one problem I do have with modern feminism. There are feminists fighting for Muslim women to be on beauty magazines in the U.S  but they aren’t fighting for Muslims women’s human rights in countries all across the world! Wtf


The bible litteraly talks about killing women for screwing around selling your daughters as slaves. Religous texts read litteraly are godawful and a product of violent human history. 

But Islam had long periods when it was the most tolerant faith on the face of the earth for its time. 

And Christianity has had its dark days as well, and still has much more shit to give us today. 

But religions are all more than these negative aspects. I judge someone not by their faith, but how they interpret and exercise that faith.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Regarding the whole Christianity and Islam discussion, the Qur'an and Bible actually share large volumes of narrative.
Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia
People who criticise the brutality of the Qur'an, compared to Christianity, often overlook the occurrence of many of those very same stories in the Old testament. 
Islam was in fact originally regarded as a _branch of Christianity_, rather than it's own distinct religion- that impression took time to emerge.

But anyway, feminism has certainly managed to find green pastures in Christian societies, so I'm sure it will find them too in Muslim societies with time.


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Regarding the whole Christianity and Islam discussion, the Qur'an and Bible actually share large volumes of narrative.
> Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia
> People who criticise the brutality of the Qur'an, compared to Christianity, often overlook the occurrence of many of those very same stories in the Old testament.
> Islam was in fact originally regarded as a _branch of Christianity_, rather than it's own distinct religion- that impression took time to emerge.
> ...



Exactly, with due time.

In the mean time its prudent to respect other cultures that share vastly different values from your own.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 10, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> Exactly, with due time.
> 
> In the mean time its prudent to respect other cultures that share vastly different values from your own.



I thought the way that Megan Markle bridged the gap was pretty clever actually.

She went to preach feminist values of women's education, and she began her meeting by joining in with a local cultural ceremony.

From that moment, she has something in common with them and everybody likes one another.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> The actual goals of the "modern" feminist movement make no sense to me. They already have equal rights under the law, and equal pay for equal work.
> 
> Its a classic case of "WHAT DO YOU WANT!?"
> being answered with "ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT!"
> all western feminism is is a bunch of bored women who badly want something to complain about


The Bureau of Labor Statistics has consistently demonstrated that woman only equal or exceed male pay in the fields of retail stocking/service and pharmacy technicians. 

As for the social side, we let convicted rapists go with six month sentences because it might effect their future, and then shorten those sentences for "good behavior". Only ~1% of rape cases result in felony conviction, and rape kits go untested en masse. And the other side of feminism is dispelling the bullshit men who have been raped go through, because getting raped means you are weak, and therefore not a man; desrving to be treated like a woman. 

Let alone the fact a feminist of any kind saying anything about videogames warrants an absolute deluge of death and rape threats apparently, and men will defend it under even the most flimsy pretense.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The bible litteraly talks about killing women for screwing around selling your daughters as slaves. Religous texts read litteraly are godawful and a product of violent human history.
> 
> But Islam had long periods when it was the most tolerant faith on the face of the earth for its time.
> 
> ...



Dude, I think all religions have issues. I didn’t say Christianity didn’t have any. The comment in question was about Islam which was why I answered about Islam specifically (not Christianity).


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> The actual goals of the "modern" feminist movement make no sense to me. They already have equal rights under the law, and equal pay for equal work.
> 
> Its a classic case of "WHAT DO YOU WANT!?"
> being answered with "ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT!"
> all western feminism is is a bunch of bored women who badly want something to complain about



They do but the law isn’t 100% practiced in all places efficiently across the U.S. I say this not to be an asshole but because I’ve witnessed women in my family getting paid significantly less compared to their male counter parts (when they work more hours). I have a family member who works in the medical field, works more hours than many of her peers, has worked for over 10 years in that specific field, and then some dude who’s had less than 6 months experience comes in and makes more money than her working less hours. This has happened multiple times and the pattern is that they are always male. I didn’t want to believe it either but when it’s in your face and you know people who have experienced it you realize how sexist this country still is despite the progress. 

For example, just because gay people now have rights doesn’t mean they don’t face discrimination. This is a similar case with women.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> They are though, Cheeto.
> 
> I hate to quote an example of the British Royal Family, but here's Meghan Markle (Our princess and a self-described Feminist) in Morocco, promoting girls' education.
> Harry and Meghan visit Morocco girls' school



I was ranting at the feminists that are promoting magazines instead of people (the bad feminists). The way I worded it was a bit confusing, sorry about that.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The Bureau of Labor Statistics has consistently demonstrated that woman only equal or exceed male pay in the fields of retail stocking/service and pharmacy technicians.



The difference between wages and earnings is very clear. Everyone gets paid the same wage for the same work. Women earn less because of more vacations, more sick days, less overtime, ect.. (which is fine)
This difference in outcome is due to personal choices not discrimination.




Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> As for the social side, we let convicted rapists go with six month sentences because it might effect their future, and then shorten those sentences for "good behavior". Only ~1% of rape cases result in felony conviction, and rape kits go untested en masse. And the other side of feminism is dispelling the bullshit men who have been raped go through, because getting raped means you are weak, and therefore not a man; desrving to be treated like a woman.



Besides that I want to call you out on that "less that 1% are felony convictions" because that is a LIE and a very misleading statistic The washington post article that I am sure you got that nonsense from counts *unreported* incidents as the 100%...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...physical-consequences/?utm_term=.365672a0a4d3







How is it supposed to result in a felony conviction if it is never reported. It is intellectually dishonest to claim that statistic.

Whoever wrote the article you are citing has no Idea how the criminal justice system works. 64% (according to their data) of cases that have enough evidence to be referred to a prosecutor end in a felony conviction. If you are trying to claim that the criminal justice system just allows rape you are dead wrong.

You get this same kind of chart for every other felony crime.

Please check your sources before you post those ridiculous statistics


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> They do but the law isn’t 100% practiced in all places efficiently across the U.S. I say this not to be an asshole but because I’ve witnessed women in my family getting paid significantly less compared to their male counter parts (when they work more hours). I have a family member who works in the medical field, works more hours than many of her peers, has worked for over 10 years in that specific field, and then some dude who’s had less than 6 months experience comes in and makes more money than her working less hours. This has happened multiple times and the pattern is that they are always male. I didn’t want to believe it either but when it’s in your face and you know people who have experienced it you realize how sexist this country still is despite the progress.
> 
> For example, just because gay people now have rights doesn’t mean they don’t face discrimination. This is a similar case with women.



I don't know any details on your anecdote to make a judgment on it (were they working the same job with the same education same experience ect..) I am especially doubtful considering how female dominated the medical field is becoming. Equal pay for equal work is already enforced under US federal law.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> The difference between wages and earnings is very clear. Everyone gets paid the same wage for the same work. Women earn less because of more vacations, more sick days, less overtime, ect.. (which is fine)
> This difference in outcome is due to personal choices not discrimination.
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, I only told you a personal story of my family member that literally works more hours with less sick days, no children and a woman that hardly takes a vacation. She gets paid less working more hours,less sick days ect... than her male counter part with only 6 month of experience when she has had over 10 years experience in her field. Instead of taking the time to empathize with her and understand her point of view a bit, you disregarded her story and said “the law says this so your(her) story isn’t true”. This is why feminism is still needed (and I’m not even a feminist man). Its because of people like you that disregard people’s expeineces because you didnt experience it yourself. It’s because you don’t understand that because something is written on a piece of paper, doesn’t mean it’s always enforced (laws are not always enforced in the workplace like they should be). I hope I didn’t offend you by saying this but I want to bring this to your attention.

Also, why did you give me stats when I told you a personal story about a family member (that has nothing to do with stats in general)? Were you responding to multiple people or only me? Kind of confused by that XD.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 10, 2019)

Third wave feminism sucks /thread


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Third wave feminism sucks /thread



Yeah that’s pretty much what this thread became XD


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> The difference between wages and earnings is very clear. Everyone gets paid the same wage for the same work. Women earn less because of more vacations, more sick days, less overtime, ect.. (which is fine)
> This difference in outcome is due to personal choices not discrimination.
> 
> 
> ...


www.romper.com: These 7 Cases Show The Lenience Of Brock Turner's Sentence Isn't Unique
I could go on and on and on with cases where a judge and jury have actively failed to act on physical evidence, or been excessively lenient with convictions. I could also go on for hours about how prosecutors have their own biases, and often lack evidence because departments have left rape kits untested in bulk. I could point out the media shitsorm rape victims go through, and how people will blame them for being raped. Many rapists will actively threaten violence against their victims, and the fucking pigs won't do jack shit. 

And if said labor statistics where indicative of earnings rather than a wages gap, then retail should have been the lowest equality, because we don't get maternity worth shit in the US. Every indication, from surveys to studies, indicates women recieve lesd pay than men for the same work within nearly all given fields in the United States. And this al.ost never goes to trial because bosses have purposefully encouraged a culture of "don't ask don't tell" for wages. People always ask me if I'm confident telling them my pay rate at work, and zome even considet bold or crass for mentioning it. 

And again, laws are only good if they are enforced. It was illegal to discriminate on the basis of race for decades in real estate, but was an institutional practice during those years that purposefully established poorer black neighborhoods and advantaged white neighborhoods to perpetuate segregation beyond its formal death.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

And this is all before discussing education. I've had college professors tell peers that women don't belong in engineering. The people responsible for teaching engineering are actively discouraging women from participating, and it isn't just this one case. The time I spent working towards an engineering degree put me into contact with some of the most detestable administrators and teachers I've ever dealt with.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> And this is all before discussing education. I've had college professors tell peers that women don't belong in engineering. The people responsible for teaching engineering are actively discouraging women from participating, and it isn't just this one case. The time I spent working towards an engineering degree put me into contact with some of the most detestable administrators and teachers I've ever dealt with.



This is true. I was in the engineering academy for 4 years and witnessed this with classmates. They always treated the few girls in the class like shit (never wanted to partner with them in projects ect...). The teacher was nice though. There needs to be more teachers like him.It’s kind of like how in elementary schools, men are told they shouldn’t be teachers to elementary children and are discouraged from doing so. Women can be discourage from certain professionals based on their sex as well.


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 10, 2019)

Positively for the most part. But I'm the "leftist cuck soygirl" by some accounts, so what do I know


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I could go on and on and on with cases where a judge and jury have actively failed to act on physical evidence, or been excessively lenient with convictions. I could also go on for hours about how prosecutors have their own biases, and often lack evidence because departments have left rape kits untested in bulk. I could point out the media shitsorm rape victims go through, and how people will blame them for being raped. Many rapists will actively threaten violence against their victims, and the fucking pigs won't do jack shit.



Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. Our justice system is perfectly fair and there is no evidence whatsoever that police or prosecutors care less about rape. Especially given the career incentive that police and prosecutors have to get convictions. As with any crime, sentencing scales with severity. You can disagree with a ruling all you want but the system isn't rigged in favor of rapists. It is just your imagination.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> And if said labor statistics where indicative of earnings rather than a wages gap, then retail should have been the lowest equality, because we don't get maternity worth shit in the US. Every indication, from surveys to studies, indicates women recieve lesd pay than men for the same work within nearly all given fields in the United States. And this al.ost never goes to trial because bosses have purposefully encouraged a culture of "don't ask don't tell" for wages. People always ask me if I'm confident telling them my pay rate at work, and zome even considet bold or crass for mentioning it.



It is illegal under multiple federal laws to pay women more than men for the same work. This is already law and you can file suit over it if it actually occurs. Women earn less money for many reasons that have nothing to do with discrimination. Modern feminists are screaming at nothing over this issue they already have legal protection, what more could you want?

Same goes for this!



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> And again, laws are only good if they are enforced. It was illegal to discriminate on the basis of race for decades in real estate, but was an institutional practice during those years that purposefully established poorer black neighborhoods and advantaged white neighborhoods to perpetuate segregation beyond its formal death.



The most you can get is discrimination to be illegal. What more can you demand beyond that? That's why this whole modern feminist thing is so dumb legally you are equal stop complaining. There is nothing more we can do. You can't force racist or sexist people to not be that way, you can only make those practices illegal, and I think we have sufficiently done that.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

So what you are saying is, if something is both illegal and objectively morally wro g, but society continues dping it anyways; we should accept that and make no attempt to hold those who are supposed to be enforcing said laws accountable for inaction? That we shouldn't bring this bullshit into the light to be confronted rather than ignore long festering issues? 

Wasn't it you who said if officials weren't doing their job they should be fired?


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> And this is all before discussing education. I've had college professors tell peers that women don't belong in engineering. The people responsible for teaching engineering are actively discouraging women from participating, and it isn't just this one case. The time I spent working towards an engineering degree put me into contact with some of the most detestable administrators and teachers I've ever dealt with.



I am no fan of College administrations to be sure, but there is no barrier to entry for women in stem. Even in your precious European countries women are _*choosing *_not to go into stem. Many prefer the medical field which is becoming overwhelmingly female. You give women free choice and then complain about the choices they make with their freedom. It makes no sense.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 10, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> So what you are saying is



You should really stop doing this. Very poor debate strategy.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> So what you are saying is, if something is both illegal and objectively morally wro g, but society continues dping it anyways; we should accept that and make no attempt to hold those who are supposed to be enforcing said laws accountable for inaction? That we shouldn't bring this bullshit into the light to be confronted rather than ignore long festering issues?
> 
> Wasn't it you who said if officials weren't doing their job they should be fired?



And no that is not what I am saying at all you just made that up. 

My view is that our criminal justice system is handling rape crimes adequately.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 10, 2019)

And I'm sorry, but


Anon Raccoon said:


> I am no fan of College administrations to be sure, but there is no barrier to entry for women in stem. Even in your precious European countries women are _*choosing *_not to go into stem. Many prefer the medical field which is becoming overwhelmingly female. You give women free choice and then complain about the choices they make with their freedom. It makes no sense.


It's almost as if people don't want to work in a field where they will be harassed and degraded by educators and coworkers. 

I hate to tell you this, but your view on reality is largely rooted in things that simply aren't true. As in the evidence from countless studies suggests everything to the contrary.


----------



## modfox (Mar 11, 2019)

feminism isnt needed in 2019


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 11, 2019)

modfox said:


> feminism isnt needed in 2019


Mostly agree tbh. I do think abortion rights are important, which I would like seeing some progress for, it largely seems to be about being needlessly aggressive/disparaging towards dudes. That's just me though


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> You should really stop doing this. Very poor debate strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except it flagrantly isn't. I mentioned multiple times that rape kits going untested is a chronic problem in this country, and rape is astonishingly under-prosecuted and under-convicted. Sentencing for rape is often astonishingly lenient. Hell I could bring up the R Kelly, who had to repeat offend before people started taking his sexual exploitation of minors seriously. The reason Brock Turner was sentenced so leniently was because prison could "mess up his prospects as a swimmer". I'm sorry, but raping an unconscious woman is not something people should be walking away from with hardly any consequence. Rape is second to murder only as a crime. It typically leaves its victims traumatized, and can leave them pregnant as well. It commonly results in PTSD, which is typically a life long mental illness that can be difficult to treat, and has debilitating symptoms. Said disorder typically comes part and parcel with clinical depression. 

When you prioritize the convicted criminal over the victim of a crime because of your personal bias, you have failed as a judge. Period. 

And don't get me started on the whole "get her drunk and take her home" culture. 

A lot of men in this country are fucking sexual predators and aren't being held accountable by their communities and by the courts. A lot of women get away with rape because of the prevailing attitude that men can't be raped, wanted it, etc. This is because of sexist attitudes, and until we change culturally and actually enforce laws in a meaningful way, shits gonna suck. 


modfox said:


> feminism isnt needed in 2019


Oh how wrong you are....
Overview of BLS Wage Data by Area and Occupation : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> And I'm sorry, but
> 
> It's almost as if people don't want to work in a field where they will be harassed and degraded by educators and coworkers.
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but your view on reality is largely rooted in things that simply aren't true. As in the evidence from countless studies suggests everything to the contrary.



Are you about to go off about how "gender studies" is a valuable topic and we should trust the research they do?

No, people are not hazing women out of stem in any statistically significant way. Colleges absolutely do not foster that kind of atmosphere. 
Are you really imagining students and faculty (very far left progressive people) telling women they don't belong there because they are not men?
People just don't go "change your major engineering isn't for women! Get out!"
That is a fantasy and does not even come close to representing the reason for the gap between male and female enrollment in those subject areas.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 11, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> Positively for the most part. But I'm the "leftist cuck soygirl" by some accounts, so what do I know



People who use the words “cuck” and “soy-boy” are fragile beings. They are the dudes who usually use these words with those who disagree with them. “Cuck” and “soyboy” are used toward their opponents to make them appear less masculine, thus making the opponents’s argument seem invalid to the public eye.It’s all pretty stupid to be honest. So my point is, don’t let their words get to you.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Are you about to go off about how "gender studies" is a valuable topic and we should trust the research they do?
> 
> No, people are not hazing women out of stem in any statistically significant way. Colleges absolutely do not foster that kind of atmosphere.
> Are you really imagining students and faculty (very far left progressive people) telling women they don't belong there because they are not men?
> ...



I'm starting to believe some people are making problems out of thin air just to get outraged at


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Are you about to go off about how "gender studies" is a valuable topic and we should trust the research they do?
> 
> No, people are not hazing women out of stem in any statistically significant way. Colleges absolutely do not foster that kind of atmosphere.
> Are you really imagining students and faculty (very far left progressive people) telling women they don't belong there because they are not men?
> ...



Are you being serious dude? Yes they do. They do it towards men too (especially when it comes to teaching elementary students. I’ve seen it).  It all depends on where you’re from and what gender expectations are put fourth on your community and it’s people.

I believe man/female should be able to have any career that they want to pursue. If a man wants to teach kindergarten he totally should. If a woman wants to be an mechanic she should do it. But not everybody feels this way. I know so many parents that want to pull their kids out of an elementary classroom because the teacher is male. I know people who don’t want to let a woman fix their car because they think she is inexperienced so they drive to another car mechanic. This stuff happens. People don’t like talking about it though.

Also, gender studies is weird to me. Why take a class about gender? Just talk to people that aren’t your own sex.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

To answer the OP: As long as we're not talking about Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism, I'm all on board for Feminism. 

To comment on the Thread: Ahaha _holy shit_. Between the Islam derail, "toxic masculinity doesn't exist" (fun fact: The American Psychological Association disagrees with you), "There's totes no difference between the treatment (legal or societal) of men and women in the modern world", and so-on, I think we can stick a fork in this thread and call it done. I'll admit I merely skimmed from 3-6, but about the only thing that's missing now is a "Well ackshually it's about ethics in journalism".


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 11, 2019)

Attaman said:


> To answer the OP: As long as we're not talking about Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism, I'm all on board for Feminism.
> 
> To comment on the Thread: Ahaha _holy shit_. Between the Islam derail, "toxic masculinity doesn't exist" (fun fact: The American Psychological Association disagrees with you), "There's totes no difference between the treatment (legal or societal) of men and women in the modern world", and so-on, I think we can stick a fork in this thread and call it done. I'll admit I merely skimmed from 3-6, but about the only thing that's missing now is a "Well ackshually it's about ethics in journalism".



Your link is blocked with a paywall. Also it’s the LA times so I don’t really know if that’s the best source anyway (I wasn’t able to read it).


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I mentioned multiple times that rape kits going untested is a chronic problem in this country



I am not even sure what you mean when you say this, can you site something please? 



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> and rape is astonishingly under-prosecuted and under-convicted. Sentencing for rape is often astonishingly lenient.



That's an opinion, I personally feel we treat rape with just the right amount of severity. You must understand how plea bargains work, If the prosecution isn't sure they can get a jury to unanimously find them guilty they may offer a plea deal. The burden of proof is very high in criminal cases. The conviction rate for rape THE SAME as crimes of any type. 
The system is not rigged to ignore rape more often that is simply not true from any measurable variable.

It is impossible for judges who are human beings to not have biases when carrying out their duties. They do the best they can to be fair.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Oh how wrong you are....



Oh how wrong you are.... 
fee.org: Harvard Study: "Gender Wage Gap" Explained Entirely by Work Choices of Men and Women | John Phelan


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> Your link is blocked with a paywall. Also it’s the LA times so I don’t really know if that’s the best source anyway (I wasn’t able to read it).


Have the APA's guidelines themselves, then. A small snippet from the LATimes article though being: 


> Citing more than 40 years of research, the APA warns against the “masculinity ideology,” which it defines as “a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure risk and violence.”
> 
> “Traditional masculinity ideology has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict and negatively influence mental health and physical health,” according to the 36-page report, featured in January’s issue of Monitor on Psychology.
> 
> ...


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

A double post, but the tl;dr from the APA's website itself (of the LA article, that is).


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> Are you being serious dude? Yes they do. They do it towards men too (especially when it comes to teaching elementary students. I’ve seen it).  It all depends on where you’re from and what gender expectations are put fourth on your community and it’s people.
> 
> I believe man/female should be able to have any career that they want to pursue. If a man wants to teach kindergarten he totally should. If a woman wants to be an mechanic she should do it. But not everybody feels this way. I know so many parents that want to pull their kids out of an elementary classroom because the teacher is male. I know people who don’t want to let a woman fix their car because they think she is inexperienced so they drive to another car mechanic. This stuff happens. People don’t like talking about it though.
> 
> Also, gender studies is weird to me. Why take a class about gender? Just talk to people that aren’t your own sex.



 The cultural biases around what types of jobs men and women should do exist, but that was never the argument. 
What I am saying is biases are not enforced systemically. Institutions don't bar women from stem because of gender, and men aren't stopped from going into women dominated fields like education and childcare. Those choices exist and that is good.  
And in the case of women in STEM the atmosphere is far more welcoming then radical feminists pretend.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 11, 2019)

Attaman said:


> Have the APA's guidelines themselves, then. A small snippet from the LATimes article though being:



Thanks for replying so fast. This linked worked this time. I will finish reading it tomorrow. Thanks again for responding.


----------



## modfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Except it flagrantly isn't. I mentioned multiple times that rape kits going untested is a chronic problem in this country, and rape is astonishingly under-prosecuted and under-convicted. Sentencing for rape is often astonishingly lenient. Hell I could bring up the R Kelly, who had to repeat offend before people started taking his sexual exploitation of minors seriously. The reason Brock Turner was sentenced so leniently was because prison could "mess up his prospects as a swimmer". I'm sorry, but raping an unconscious woman is not something people should be walking away from with hardly any consequence. Rape is second to murder only as a crime. It typically leaves its victims traumatized, and can leave them pregnant as well. It commonly results in PTSD, which is typically a life long mental illness that can be difficult to treat, and has debilitating symptoms. Said disorder typically comes part and parcel with clinical depression.
> 
> When you prioritize the convicted criminal over the victim of a crime because of your personal bias, you have failed as a judge. Period.
> 
> ...






prettey mutch me


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I am not even sure what you mean when you say this, can you site something please?
> 
> Oh how wrong you are....
> fee.org: Harvard Study: "Gender Wage Gap" Explained Entirely by Work Choices of Men and Women | John Phelan



The wage gap argument always baffled me, personally.

Aside from abortion rights (which are an issue) I was never entirely what societal or legislative inequalities there were supposedly against women, but then again I guess I aint woke enough. I hear some things about unfortunate presumptions/attitudes from men against women, but I always imagined it was just a case of the dude personally being a shit person.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Are you about to go off about how "gender studies" is a valuable topic and we should trust the research they do?
> 
> No, people are not hazing women out of stem in any statistically significant way. Colleges absolutely do not foster that kind of atmosphere.
> Are you really imagining students and faculty (very far left progressive people)








Apparently being vaguely left of center is far left now? Engineers tend to vote democratic, but I've had a lot of involvement with engineers and engineering teachers, and it really is a boys club. Like I've hung out with people who can't disclose half of what they work on for obvious reasons.

And by the way, that anecdote about someone I knew being told women don't belong in engineering was literal. And they teach at a large 4 year university.

That's to say nothing of my time at Rolla, where we had an administrator tell us to get a woman to show us how to use a washing machine during an on-boarding process. Straight to the entire crowd of soon to be students and their parents.

Oh, and not all liberals are progressive. A lot are still fairly bigoted, just not quit so overtly as their counterparts.


Anon Raccoon said:


> I am not even sure what you mean when you say this, can you site something please?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You might have tried looking at the actual data in the link.
www.bls.gov: Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by detailed occupation and sex
"Median *weekly* earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by detailed occupation and sex"

Also, there is a thing in all research called sample size, and this study is small.

Oh, and her is a quote from it by the way;



> Rather, it is that women have greater demand for workplace flexibility and lower demand for overtime work hours than men. *These gender differences are consistent with women taking on more of the household and childcare duties than men, limiting their work availability in the process*


It's almost as if women are expected by society to take responsibility for child rearing in the family over men.

But since you are skeptical, here is this little resource showing differences in hourly rates.
Gender pay gap search results - GOV.UK

And this article about it; www.bbc.com: Most firms pay men more than women

EDIT: And I don't think a man with a video entitled "Gillette Hates Men" is going to have a well balanced and unbiased view of politics.


----------



## Spicy Cheeto (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> The cultural biases around what types of jobs men and women should do exist, but that was never the argument.
> What I am saying is biases are not enforced systemically. Institutions don't bar women from stem because of gender, and men aren't stopped from going into women dominated fields like education and childcare. Those choices exist and that is good.
> And in the case of women in STEM the atmosphere is far more welcoming then radical feminists pretend.



They don’t bar them but they can discourage both sexes and this discouragement passes on to future generations which continues the cycle of discouragement based on sex through certain professionals. Yes my friend can get his four year degree and be an elementary teacher. It’s his right.But what if he tries to apply to a school and they won’t hire him because he is male. Where’s his rights now? You could flip this around with a woman. Yes humans have choices but what is the thing that forces us to make these choices in the first place? There are many factors but most are environmental.

STEM is desperately trying to get women to join in but in doing so they may put a target of resentment toward the other sex. Hopefully things work out though.

Anyway, I’m going to sleep now. I’m tired XD. Thanks for talking with me and have a good day/night.


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 11, 2019)

When I think of feminism, I think of "Big Red".


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> Thanks for replying so fast. This linked worked this time. I will finish reading it tomorrow. Thanks again for responding.


No worries! As a note, the APA Guidelines themselves are... a little academically dense, since they're written for psychiatrists and therapists and the like in mind.



KimberVaile said:


> I was never entirely what societal or legislative inequalities there were supposedly against women, but then again I guess I aint woke enough. I hear some things about unfortunate presumptions/attitudes from men against women, but I always imagined it was just a case of the dude personally being a shit person.
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


 A lot of the inequalities against women - much like those against other minorities - are not codified into law but instead societal and built on the way we interact with people. For example, there have been studies on hiring practices of white and black male employees in the United States, and the tl;dr was "With everything else the exact same - the only variable race - white males without criminal records were significantly more likely to be hired than black males without criminal records, and white males _with _criminal records are _still_ slightly more likely to be hired than black males _without_." 

Likewise there have been a slew of studies (one professional I often turn to - upon recommendation by a friend -  being Dr. Nadya Fouad and her works) as to women and STEM (an example), and while not the _sole_ cause a commonly cited issue is a mix of the hostile work environment combined with common societal expectations / pressures placed upon women (such as leaving work only to have to return home and manage the house and family; or a hostile work place that - in a sort of positive feedback loop - refrained from retaining women due to caustic conditions which led to them bleeding women which led to caustic conditions which..).


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Apparently being vaguely left of center is far left now? Engineers tend to vote democratic, but I've had a lot of involvement with engineers and engineering teachers, and it really is a boys club. Like I've hung out with people who can't disclose half of what they work on for obvious reasons.
> 
> And by the way, that anecdote about someone I knew being told women don't belong in engineering was literal. And they teach at a large 4 year university.
> 
> ...



How about evidence that is NOT anecdotal. There is no actual limitation placed on women in stem. 

Is it that hard to accept that women generally just prefer other career paths through their own choices and not oppression?



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> You might have tried looking at the actual data in the link.
> www.bls.gov: Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by detailed occupation and sex
> "Median *weekly* earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by detailed occupation and sex"
> 
> ...



OH! So you finally admit that it is not the employer pay discrimination that causes women earn less, and it is actually their own choices about family/work balance that cause them to not earn as much. Glad we cleared that up. You are making progress.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> How about evidence that is NOT anecdotal. There is no actual limitation placed on women in stem.
> 
> Is it that hard to accept that women generally just prefer other career paths through their own choices and not oppression?
> 
> ...


I literally didn't say that. You might want to check out literally any of my links to actual statistics, but that would mean you would have to stop accusing me of just relying on anecdotes.


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

Spicy Cheeto said:


> People who use the words “cuck” and “soy-boy” are fragile beings. They are the dudes who usually use these words with those who disagree with them. “Cuck” and “soyboy” are used toward their opponents to make them appear less masculine, thus making the opponents’s argument seem invalid to the public eye.It’s all pretty stupid to be honest. So my point is, don’t let their words get to you.


Hey, thank you for support, kindly mojito ^^ I've meant it more as a self-irony, since there are several "anti-sjw" members of the forum who participate in political threads (or create them) on a constant basis, so that's how I imagine they probably see me whenever I appear with a leftie opinion x) I've got called out with aforementioned "insults", but to me they're amusing more than anything.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Workplace discrimination isn't the only part of the gender pay gap, but it is impressively substantial. Being expected to be the primary caregiver for children and the housekeeper is another that goes back decades, and still hasn't died. Women are still expected to keep the house and kids in order, and babysit the men they are supposedly in a loving relationship with. And they are expected to hold down a job at the same time now due to economic pressures, and then get shit on in terms of pay rates. They have to put up with toxic communities if they have passions that are typically male dominated, because all the old farts in charge grew up in the era when women were practically house slaves. Shit is better than it has ever been for women's rights, but we still have a long way to go as a society, and pretending these issues have gone away because they are technically illegal isn't much of a solution.

How do you propose we solve these problems that persist despite many of them being outright illegal? How would you address discrimination of any sort that is already banned being continual in spite of that ban? Humor me for a second and assume that is the case, which it is despite your refusal to believe so; and tell me how you would address rampant illegal and immoral discrimination being ignored by society.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I went one goddamn day without getting b
> 
> I literally didn't say that. You might want to check out literally any of my links to actual statistics, but that would mean you would have to stop accusing me of just relying on anecdotes.



you are using anecdotes for the "STEM hates women" argument

and you are using only one variable of the equation to somehow prove that employers are breaking equal pay laws. 

Yes, men on average make more money. That is all you are proving and that is a known fact. 
If you want to actually see if discrimination is occurring you have to do case studies. 
To insure that your assessment is correct you have to *control for variables.*
Same job? same seniority? same qualifications? same performance? same hours?
People have done this assessment many times and unsurprisingly found women are paid the same, they just do less work and therefore make less.

*Women earning less money has nothing to do with discrimination.
*
I am sorry it doesn't fit your narrative, it is just a fact.


----------



## foussiremix (Mar 11, 2019)

Meh feminism these days isn't done in a rule changing way.
It also feels like as if half of the people who think they are feminists misunderstood what it actually mean, there are for real people who actually use it to hate on men even tho its supposed to bring equal rights.

Like in vienna like 75 years ago, we had woman fight for the right to vote and in the end they were able to vote too.

I'd say modern feminists lack the certain "hey we are gonna protest and stuff" energy and they rather  post stuff on social media because people obviously would change immediatly :V (lol not)

Hell even the word feminism is wrong because its about equal rights for everyone and not one side.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Being expected to be the primary caregiver for children and the housekeeper is another that goes back decades, and still hasn't died.



It goes back millennia, not just decades. At least since humans settled and started farming. It just has always made more biological sense to have women be the caretaker is all.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> How do you propose we solve these problems that persist despite many of them being outright illegal? How would you address discrimination of any sort that is already banned being continual in spite of that ban? Humor me for a second and assume that is the case, which it is despite your refusal to believe so; and tell me how you would address rampant illegal and immoral discrimination being ignored by society.



You can't force people to change their beliefs on an individual level so there is nothing you _can _do. Especially not by screeching and shaking your fist at the sky. All you can do is keep the laws fair and wait. This has worked well so far. Especially for things like civil rights. Since it was passed the US has socially gotten much less racist in the past 50+ years despite the narrative some try to feed us.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> you are using anecdotes for the "STEM hates women" argument
> 
> and you are using only one variable of the equation to somehow prove that employers are breaking equal pay laws.
> 
> ...


link.springer.com: The Gender Pay Gap: Challenging the Rationalizations. Perceived Equity, Discrimination, and the Limits of Human Capital Models
Google Scholar

I hate to tell you, but even your tightly controlled study is only representative of one career field, and indicated a lower wage gap than the current average. If anything that would indicate since those common variables where controlled, and resulted in a lower wage gap despite other factors, that those factors controlled might have some impact on the pay gap.

I also linked an hourly pay comparison for the UK that outright demonstrates massive differences in pay rate based upon gender in a larger portion of listed companies.

I also linked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data which shows that many fields have a higher pay gap than could have been accounted for by the findings of Valentin Bolotnyy and Natalia Emanuel study.



Anon Raccoon said:


> It goes back millennia, not just decades. At least since humans settled and started farming. It just has always made more biological sense to have women be the caretaker is all.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't force people to change their beliefs on an individual level so there is nothing you _can _do. Especially not by screeching and shaking your fist at the sky. All you can do is keep the laws fair and wait. This has worked well so far. Especially for things like civil rights. Since it was passed the US has socially gotten much less racist in the past 50+ years despite the narrative some try to feed us.


The civil rights are still kinda screwed up today, and a lot of protests and aggressive legal actions are why these changes have occurred. The protests didn't end with the era or MLK. Civil rights has been a long series of fights, legal and in activism for change over the past half a century. It took politicians and activists bringing to light things like red-lining to finally put a stop to them well after they were already made illegal.

Again, the reason we even needed the civil rights movement was that everyone assumed things would get better on their own now that slavery was illegal, and big surprise, racism festered instead. It became the KKK and Silver Legion. It became sundown towns and segregation. Racism didn't go way because we just let things be, and it still hasn't gone away.

The same is true with women's issues and sexism. Women being able to legally work didn't solve many of the problems of discrimination, and a lot of activism and court cases had to happen to make current employment laws more than a legal footnote.

Lastly, as you have demonstrated, the less people speak out about an issue that is illegal but still persistent, the easier it is to ignore and pretend it doesn't exist. It's easy to accuse one story as anecdotal, but 100 is much harder, and 1,000 harder still.

(Sidenote: www.pbs.org: Police respect whites more than blacks during traffic stops, language analysis finds )


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> link.springer.com: The Gender Pay Gap: Challenging the Rationalizations. Perceived Equity, Discrimination, and the Limits of Human Capital Models
> Google Scholar
> 
> I hate to tell you, but even your tightly controlled study is only representative of one career field, and indicated a lower wage gap than the current average. If anything that would indicate since those common variables where controlled, and resulted in a lower wage gap despite other factors, that those factors controlled might have some impact on the pay gap.
> ...



You still aren't getting it. You cant just take the earnings of men and the earnings of women and call the difference a gender pay gap.

You seem to not understand the difference between wages and earnings.
Women _earn_ less in the same job being paid the same _wage_ because they like having time off work more.
No discrimination required.

Feminists can screech all they want but equal pay for equal work is already practiced.

So I ask again. What is the *goal* of modern feminism? 
What specifically do you *want *to happen?

Also recently I had a good laugh at this recently:
www.businessinsider.com: In its annual wage-equity study, Google found that more men were underpaid than women


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Workplace discrimination isn't the only part of the gender pay gap, but it is impressively substantial. Being expected to be the primary caregiver for children and the housekeeper is another that goes back decades, and still hasn't died. Women are still expected to keep the house and kids in order, and babysit the men they are supposedly in a loving relationship with. And they are expected to hold down a job at the same time now due to economic pressures, and then get shit on in terms of pay rates. They have to put up with toxic communities if they have passions that are typically male dominated, because all the old farts in charge grew up in the era when women were practically house slaves. Shit is better than it has ever been for women's rights, but we still have a long way to go as a society, and pretending these issues have gone away because they are technically illegal isn't much of a solution.
> 
> How do you propose we solve these problems that persist despite many of them being outright illegal? How would you address discrimination of any sort that is already banned being continual in spite of that ban? Humor me for a second and assume that is the case, which it is despite your refusal to believe so; and tell me how you would address rampant illegal and immoral discrimination being ignored by society.


Earnings ≠ Wages. 

Your wages may be the same, but earnings will vary. That is is a result of the same opportunities but different _*choices*_ being made, in other words, different outcome. 

We learned that different choices have different outcomes back in _*grade school*_. Women, on average, work _*less*_ than men per week.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 11, 2019)

I'd say the visibility of feminisim certainly has its places in some areas.. and (sure) video games could certainly be one of them, (in characters like Lara Croft, or what-ev); but - it shouldn't be so saturated that it alters historical incidents and figures, either.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> You still aren't getting it. You cant just take the earnings of men and the earnings of women and call the difference a gender pay gap.
> 
> You seem to not understand the difference between wages and earnings.
> Women _earn_ less in the same job being paid the same _wage_ because they like having time off work more.
> ...





> As of 2018, Google was comprised of 69% males and 31% females overall. In leadership roles, however, those numbers widened even further, as 74.5% were male and 25.5% were female


I posted a link showing the gap in *hourly wages *in the UK. I already definitely proved that the actual wage differs between men and women in the same company in the UK. I also pointed out that in your beloved study, an environment with a controll for discrimination had a lower earnings gap than the average.

Since you like Business Insider
amp.businessinsider.com: 6 charts that show the glaring gap between men and women's salaries
This infographic stands out; 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






Lastly, a report with a shitton of controls that concluded that women earned less than male counterparts consistently in salaried professional positions in STEM fields through 1995. This is older data, but was consistent with the wage gap at the time.

www.nap.edu: 7: Gender Differences in Salary | From Scarcity to Visibility: Gender Differences in the Careers of Doctoral Scientists and Engineers | The National Academies Press

Oh, and if you would have read the BLS data, you might have noticed that the weakly earnings gap is worse for typically salaried positions, which controls for factors such as overtime and scheduling.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I posted a link showing the gap in *hourly wages *in the UK. I already definitely proved that the actual wage differs between men and women in the same company in the UK. I also pointed out that in your beloved study, an environment with a controll for discrimination had a lower earnings gap than the average.
> 
> Since you like Business Insider
> amp.businessinsider.com: 6 charts that show the glaring gap between men and women's salaries
> ...


It's illegal to pay anyone more or less regardless of their gender, or do I have to find the corresponsing laws to support the case?

Should a woman earn the same as a man if she works 32 hours and the man 40? Same job and same wages, mind you.


----------



## Furrium (Mar 11, 2019)

I did not follow this thread for only one night, only 7 hours, and here already appeared 9 pages of discussion


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I posted a link showing the gap in *hourly wages *in the UK. I already definitely proved that the actual wage differs between men and women in the same company in the UK. I also pointed out that in your beloved study, an environment with a controll for discrimination had a lower earnings gap than the average.
> 
> Since you like Business Insider
> amp.businessinsider.com: 6 charts that show the glaring gap between men and women's salaries
> ...



Do you not understand the reasons why men make more? I have laid them out quite clearly, and discrimination has nothing to do with it.

Men and women simply have different priorities when it comes to work, and it is reflected in their earnings. 

The choices you make with regards to work will determine how much money you make. There is no systemic gender discrimination.

It is not healthy to spread the lie that women making the exact same work choices as men will get a different amount of money.

It is also illegal.


----------



## BunBunArt (Mar 11, 2019)

It's not about gender... I'm a woman and earn same money as all men I know (I'm programmer...) 

It's about the job itself. Woman tend to work less hours because of having kids or housekeepers. Woman prefer simple jobs that are paid less because most of them aren't strong enough, physycally (seller in a clothes shop? nurse? assistant? waitress?) but those jobs are paid equally low no matter who gets them...

And most important, qualification. I know lots of programmer girls and they're NOT good and they still come with she shitty discrimination... I have an intern, a girl, who cried to me: aaah boys push me to a side cause I'm a girl and I never leadership my team, they take me down!
So I gave her a chance, told my boss to take her as an intern...
What I discovered?she CAN'T leadership. She is just not good =/ and I'm a woman too... and I "discriminate" her too because she just isn't good. It feels like woman these days take more time  complaining than actually trying to be good at the jobs hey want. (I'm talking about what I have been seeing here, not about cases I don't know, I'm not saying discrimination doesn't exist, just that I didn't see it and I'm in a field that it's suppose to be full of it...)

I really hate the exaggerated feminism. I get the concept and think it's good and I would support and help! But geez, be realistic...

I've been also called many times in my town to talk in public about my experience, they said: tell us how HARD it was for you to get into science, to be successful and have a well paid job! Because men suck! And I was like: ... it was the easiest thing, nobody EVER discriminated me, I just studied, made lots of projects and acted normal... =/ And now I'm hated too becuase "I'm not a good example" helloooooooooooooo xD

Sorry I had to take this off hahahaha :')


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

CapReMount said:


> I did not follow this thread for only one night, only 7 hours, and here already appeared 9 pages of discussion


9 pages of three people screaming at each other, that is. But that's classic FurAffinity Forums for you, so consider it the rite of passage.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Do you not understand the reasons why men make more? I have laid them out quite clearly, and discrimination has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Men and women simply have different priorities when it comes to work, and it is reflected in their earnings.
> 
> ...





Yakamaru said:


> It's illegal to pay anyone more or less regardless of their gender, or do I have to find the corresponsing laws to support the case?
> 
> Should a woman earn the same as a man if she works 32 hours and the man 40? Same job and same wages, mind you.


I just pointed out that I have linked statistics that;
A. Flatly show flagrant disregard for equal pay in hourly wages in the UK at least.
B. Have statistics indicating a difference in salaried pay for like positions.

I should not have to explain how salary pay works, but hear we go. Salaried employees earn a specific annual ammount. While it is possible to earn overtime bonus pay in the US on Salary pay, it is a frequent practice for companies to not pay out overtime pay for salaried employees. The only change in pay amount between two salaried workers is overtime pay.

Executives and a few others are considered exempt from overtime as well.

Upper salary pay positions, ESPECIALLY executives, have some of the worst of the gender pay gaps. These are positions where scheduling is set, or universally fluid regardless of gender, and pay is derived from a flat yearly rate. There should be nearly no weekly earnings gap at this tier assuming women and men are being paid equal salaries, but these types of jobs are the worst offenders.


----------



## Jackpot Raccuki (Mar 11, 2019)

The so called Feminism today with women saying theres a wage gap, trying to make everything "diverse" with women in it and what not isn't feminism.
Nor is it what it was strived for, because feminism is about women getting the SAME rights as men, no more and no less. Such as letting them vote as well.

This so called "Current day feminism" isn't feminism at all.

Nobody should be forced to put in a female character, nor even a male character, gay or straight character into a story or game just because you demand it,
nor should people be forced to pamper to your "needs" of having "forced diversity".


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

RoxyHana said:


> It's not about gender... I'm a woman and earn same money as all men I know (I'm programmer...)
> 
> It's about the job itself. Woman tend to work less hours because of having kids or housekeepers. Woman prefer simple jobs that are paid less because most of them aren't strong enough, physycally (seller in a clothes shop? nurse? assistant? waitress?) but those jobs are paid equally low no matter who gets them...
> 
> ...


I do think a lot of it also depends on region, though. There are certainly places and places within places where underpayment of women is kind of a problem (it's definitely a common one here in Russia), which makes particularly hard to draw the line between overreaction and legitimate concern. I mean, as much as I agree that "I can't get a good job because men suck" is a self-defeating approach, the "problem doesn't exist because it was fine for me" is also not the particularly strong one either, since it falls right into "survivorship fallacy" .з.


----------



## BunBunArt (Mar 11, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> I do think a lot of it also depends on region, though. There are certainly places and places within places where underpayment of women is kind of a problem (it's definitely a common one here in Russia), which makes particularly hard to draw the line between overreaction and legitimate concern.



Yeah that's why I say I talk about my area, I'm from Spain and still nobody was able to tell me a job where a man earns more than a woman in the exact same job... I just don't understand, it's a bit crazy.


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

RoxyHana said:


> Yeah that's why I say I talk about my area, I'm from Spain and still nobody was able to tell me a job where a man earns more than a woman in the exact same job... I just don't understand, it's a bit crazy.


Hm, I see .u. thanks for elaborating


----------



## HistoricalyIncorrect (Mar 11, 2019)

Depends which form of feminism we are talking about as well as area and time period.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I just pointed out that I have linked statistics that;
> A. Flatly show flagrant disregard for equal pay in hourly wages in the UK at least.
> B. Have statistics indicating a difference in salaried pay for like positions.
> 
> ...



You do realize that salary pay still has to be negotiated right? It is not just some fixed value and any difference is discrimination. 

Men tend to be more aggressive when it comes for negotiating higher salary, raises, promotions, ect...
Is a women's tendency to not do these things as much discrimination? I think not.

Also you may be offered a lower salary if you want more vacation days in your contract.

Sorry to break it to you but even for salary positions it still comes down to choices.


----------



## BunBunArt (Mar 11, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Depends which form of feminism we are talking about as well as area and time period.



Fight for equal rights: I understand and support
Fight not to use word "pussy" as an insult: I think it's stupid so I rather to something more productive in life...

Because yes, here in spain feminists are bored and need to find other things to complain about, or just create problems like "why xBox??? why not xGirl" oh come on... x'D


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

I am still curious what a list of modern feminist demands would look like.
You have to want _something _real right?


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> You do realize that salary pay still has to be negotiated right? It is not just some fixed value and any difference is discrimination.
> 
> Men tend to be more aggressive when it comes for negotiating higher salary, raises, promotions, ect...
> Is a women's tendency to not do these things as much discrimination? I think not.
> ...


Again, really depends on vacancy and region. In some places, the woman negotiating for higher salary is the one who doesn't get the job, simple as that.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

RoxyHana said:


> Yeah that's why I say I talk about my area, I'm from Spain and still nobody was able to tell me a job where a man earns more than a woman in the exact same job... I just don't understand, it's a bit crazy.


elpais.com: The gender no-pay gap: Women in Spain do twice as much unpaid work as men
elpais.com: Women in Spain earn 13% less than men for similar work, new study shows


> The project used data from the EU’s Structure of Earnings Survey for 2014, the most recent available year, which show that a woman’s hourly earnings are 14.9% lower than a man’s.



Also relevant
www.investmenteurope.net: More than half of Spanish employers reject gender pay gap audits


Anon Raccoon said:


> You do realize that salary pay still has to be negotiated right? It is not just some fixed value and any difference is discrimination.
> 
> Men tend to be more aggressive when it comes for negotiating higher salary, raises, promotions, ect...
> Is a women's tendency to not do these things as much discrimination? I think not.
> ...


Sorry to break it to you, but paying the same workers less for the same contract terms based on gender is discrimination, especially if you inculcate a policy of "don't ask don't tell" for pay rates in the work force the way american businesses have. Businesses get away with paying women less in salaried positions because there is no pay rate transparency, meaning they have no way of establishing a baseline. Oh and there is this;
https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pdf/10.1287/orsc.1110.0691
In summary, if bosses knew they would have an opportunity to justify their lower raises, they would give women much lower raises than men. And the primary reason women don't negotiate is fear of reprisals.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I am still curious what a list of modern feminist demands would look like.
> You have to want _something _real right?



Equality for all genders, including constitutional and statutory measures to gain full equality for women.
Safe, legal and accessible abortion, contraception, and reproductive and sexual healthcare, including Medicaid funding and access for minors and poor women.
Civil rights for all people through affirmative action programs for people of color and women, securing fair housing, ending the school to prison pipeline, establishing full voting rights, and enforcing civil rights laws including Title IX, Title VI, and the ADA. 
Pay transparency laws and proper investigation requiring justification for discrepancies between male and female salaries within the same companies. 
The dismantling of gender and racial inequities within the criminal justice system.
Equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer and gender-nonconforming people.
Eliminate all forms of societal violence against women such as spousal abuse and rape in all its poorly justified forms.
The creation of inclusive spaces and eliminating social and institutional barriers to access faced by people with disabilities.
Increase access to voting and voter participation for young people, women, and people of color, and opposes gerrymandering and all methods of voter suppression.
Most men to stop being toxic trash. IE to not receive death threats from fans for being a female character in a popular movie series, etc. 
A general end to toxic masculinity and rape subculture.
An end to cultural stigmas rooted in sexism that negatively impacted everyone, but especially women. 
TERFs to get catapulted into the Sun. 
Evidently for their to be basic research and science literacy courses because people still don't know how to use google scholar in 2019
I stole more than half of this from the first thing after wikipedia to pop up searching: "feminist goals".


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

@RoxyHana I'm glad you've had the experience you've had, but not every woman is so lucky. If you approach social issues from solely your own perspective, you get really skewed perceptions. Sociatal scale issues have impacts that don't effect everyone equally or the same way. For example, many of these statistics are medians. That means a lot of women may be making equal pay, but a shitton are still getting screwed over. The more women are making equal pay, the worse the gap has to be for the individuals not getting equal pay to reach the median.


----------



## Skychickens (Mar 11, 2019)

A: do remember it’s women’s history month

B: I do think it’s often skewed and forgotten that it’s supposed to be equality among the sexes and not just about women. It’s just more obvious there and kinda thrown out of proportion by feminazis. 



Anyway I could probably go on for a long time but really don’t wanna accidentally spark a ragefest.


----------



## David Drake (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Equality for all genders, including constitutional and statutory measures to gain full equality for women.
> Safe, legal and accessible abortion, contraception, and reproductive and sexual healthcare, including Medicaid funding and access for minors and poor women.
> Civil rights for all people through affirmative action programs for people of color and women, securing fair housing, ending the school to prison pipeline, establishing full voting rights, and enforcing civil rights laws including Title IX, Title VI, and the ADA.
> Pay transparency laws and proper investigation requiring justification for discrepancies between male and female salaries within the same companies.
> ...



Pretty much this. Sorry I'm late to the party.

Not everybody who calls themselves a feminist is really good at these, but this is the base ideology.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Skychickens said:


> A: do remember it’s women’s history month
> 
> B: I do think it’s often skewed and forgotten that it’s supposed to be equality among the sexes and not just about women. It’s just more obvious there and kinda thrown out of proportion by feminazis.
> 
> ...


*with the most painful and forced sarcasm* You can't call everyone you don't like a Nazi! 

Seriously, I find it funny the same people who constantly spout the above line almost always threw around the term "femanazi" back in its heyday.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Equality for all genders, including constitutional and statutory measures to gain full equality for women.


Women already have full equality. Check that off the list.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Safe, legal and accessible abortion, contraception, and reproductive and sexual healthcare, including Medicaid funding and access for minors and poor women.


Murder of the unborn has nothing to do with women, and you have the right to pay for your own healthcare.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Civil rights for all people through affirmative action programs for people of color and women, securing fair housing, ending the school to prison pipeline, establishing full voting rights, and enforcing civil rights laws including Title IX, Title VI, and the ADA.


Civil rights already exist and are enforced.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Pay transparency laws and proper investigation requiring justification for discrepancies between male and female salaries within the same companies.


Literally anyone can file a lawsuit if they think they are being gender pay discriminated.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The dismantling of gender and racial inequities within the criminal justice system.


The law applies to everyone equally, but there is nothing we can do about individual biases. (btw do you want lighter sentences for all men or harsher sentences for all women?)


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer and gender-nonconforming people.


Be more specific what "rights" aren't you getting. Everyone has the same rights.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Eliminate all forms of societal violence against women such as spousal abuse and rape in all its poorly justified forms.


This is already illegal, nothing else we can do. (also women beat their men more so...)


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The creation of inclusive spaces and eliminating social and institutional barriers to access faced by people with disabilities.


This is not specific enough of a demand to even understand.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Increase access to voting and voter participation for young people, women, and people of color, and opposes gerrymandering and all methods of voter suppression.


Every citizen over the age of 18 is free to vote already. Nothing we can do about gerrymandering. (how is that femenism???)


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Most men to stop being toxic trash. IE to not receive death threats from fans for being a female character in a popular movie series, etc.


How exactly could we possibly do that demand? Death threats are already illegal.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> A general end to toxic masculinity and rape subculture.


Neither of these exist. Congrats.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> An end to cultural stigmas rooted in sexism that negatively impacted everyone, but especially women.


wtf does that even mean and how could anyone fulfill that demand


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> TERFs to get catapulted into the Sun.


...?


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Evidently for their to be basic research and science literacy courses because people still don't know how to use google scholar in 2019


This isn't feminism. Also not the only way of getting information.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

So a friend approached me and asked what my thought about abortion is.

I told him that if it's rape, the woman can take an abortion. Any other reason like negligence, I don't allow it.

I was told about the "plan b" pills

So I was told that as long as the sperm doesn't come into contact with the egg cells, it's not a living thing.

Plan B pills prevents this contact.


So from what I can gather, if a woman got raped, she can just take the pill and no need for abortion. 

If you get raped and didn't report it and didn't take the Plan B pills and get pregnant, I guess that's kind of a  negligence :V

Oh this is just fun to think about :V


----------



## Skychickens (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> *with the most painful and forced sarcasm* You can't call everyone you don't like a Nazi!
> 
> Seriously, I find it funny the same people who constantly spout the above line almost always threw around the term "femanazi" back in its heyday.


You are very much correct. 

Also I saw one of your other posts and you make a lot of good points. On paper it says we have these rights but it’s proven time and time again to be false, especially for women of color. 

(I wouldn’t mind if you’d like to chat about it via pm btw to avoid fire)


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Women already have full equality. Check that off the list.


I just disproved that.


Anon Raccoon said:


> Murder of the unborn has nothing to do with women, and you have the right to pay for your own healthcare.


Bodily autonomy is a right uniquely denied to women because people give more of a shit about a lump of cells than a full on person.


Anon Raccoon said:


> Civil rights already exist and are enforced.


Except they frequently aren't.


Anon Raccoon said:


> Literally anyone can file a lawsuit if they think they are being gender pay discriminated.


Lawsuits require money, and you can be fired for filing such a lawsuit in any state without substantive whistle-blower protections. Even if you aren't fired, a company you report can enact a program of reprisals against you. EA is famous for putting people through hell to force them to quit. It's called retaliation, and it's often illegal but done anyway because people can get away with it easily.


Anon Raccoon said:


> The law applies to everyone equally, but there is nothing we can do about individual biases. (btw do you want lighter sentences for all men or harsher sentences for all women?)


Our justice system treats neither women or men fairly due to sexist stereotypes. And again, I already posted a study indicating cops treated people differently based on skin color. I could bring up a whole mess of data on fucked conviction rates, or issues with custody, but we would get very far afield really quick. 


Anon Raccoon said:


> Be more specific what "rights" aren't you getting. Everyone has the same rights.


If you have them on paper but they aren't enforced, your rights mean nothing. California's gun laws are a fine example.


Anon Raccoon said:


> This is already illegal, nothing else we can do. (also women beat their men more so...)


Women are still the majority victims of domestic abuse. 


> Police in Britain are discovering more such cases. Surveys of victims suggest that the prevalence of domestic abuse against men and women alike has not changed much in the past decade or so. About 4% of men and 8% of women report being mistreated at home. What has changed is that many more male victims are coming forward. Between 2012 and 2017 the number of male domestic-abuse victims recorded by the police each year more than doubled. *(In the same period the number of female victims rose by 50%.)* There is growing recognition that men can be victims of this crime, which encourages them to report it, says Mark Brooks of the ManKind Initiative, a charity.


www.economist.com: Police are recording more domestic abuse against men
A lot of beating of women goes unprosecuted, and isn't included in statistics as a result, my friend being one on the list who is suffering from Stockholm syndrome and a number of other resulting mental health conditions. 


Anon Raccoon said:


> This is not specific enough of a demand to even understand.


It's called having a fucking ramp instead of a "fuck wheelchair users" step, and accessibility in general. 


Anon Raccoon said:


> Every citizen over the age of 18 is free to vote already. Nothing we can do about gerrymandering. (how is that femenism???)


Gerrymandering negatively impacts everyone's ability to be represented, including women. Women are often socially discouraged from voting, or are pressured into punching the same boxes as their spouse. 


Anon Raccoon said:


> How exactly could we possibly do that demand? Death threats are already illegal.


Death threats and harassment are illegal, but the authorities almost never in enforce it when it occurs online, even when it would be easy for them to do so. Men love to go on harassment campaigns against feminists, or justify these campaigns. And some of these death threats are made in earnest. Rape accusers often receive this treatment even when the rapist in question is later found guilty, up to and including attempts on their life and destruction of their property; all based on the assumption that the woman in question is a liar.


Anon Raccoon said:


> Neither of these exist. Congrats.


People still say 



Spoiler: this shit










 in earnest. 
And this “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” -Todd Akin
And people still frequently try to justify rape and sexual assault with the excuse, "Boys will be boys". 
Oh, and people literally lost their shit over a razor commercial suggesting men not act like douche-nozzles.


Anon Raccoon said:


> wtf does that even mean and how could anyone fulfill that demand


By bringing these cultural elements out in the open for discussion and deconstruction, and suggesting better behavior and thought patterns. It's not healthy for us to assume men can't be abused, to assume men have to be emotionally dead or we are womenlike, that women meek by nature, etc. We have a lot of stereotypes, and by discussing and unpacking them we can begin to understand how we think and fall into them. 

Metacognition is a wonderful thing. You should try it some time. 



> Also not the only way of getting information.


 Knowing how to research and read material from research papers, and verify the credibility of a publication is the only way to accurately get a picture of reality beyond one's own immediate experiences, which are themselves flawed and limited in scope. Watching SargonEuroBlackTotallynotaltrightMcShitburger on youtube is rarely effective, and usually nets you information copped from literal tabloids, or gross misreadings and cherry pickings of scientific papers. 



Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> So a friend approached me and asked what my thought about abortion is.
> 
> I told him that if it's rape, the woman can take an abortion. Any other reason like negligence, I don't allow it.
> 
> ...





> Plan B One-Step works like other birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. The drug acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary. It may prevent a sperm from fertilizing the egg.
> 
> *If fertilization does occur, Plan B One-Step may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb.* If a fertilized egg is implanted prior to taking Plan B One-Step, the drug will not work and pregnancy proceeds normally.


Those pills can cost in the ballpark of 60$. 



Skychickens said:


> You are very much correct.
> 
> Also I saw one of your other posts and you make a lot of good points. On paper it says we have these rights but it’s proven time and time again to be false, especially for women of color.
> 
> (I wouldn’t mind if you’d like to chat about it via pm btw to avoid fire)


I'm done for the day and tired. You have a good night.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Lastly, if we applied the shitty logic of "it's illegal so there is nothing we can do" to sex trafficking, a whole lot of programs that have saved people's lives would never have been begun.

Almost forgot to add that.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I just pointed out that I have linked statistics that;
> A. Flatly show flagrant disregard for equal pay in hourly wages in the UK at least.
> B. Have statistics indicating a difference in salaried pay for like positions.
> 
> ...


Why did you completely ignore my question here:


Yakamaru said:


> Should a woman earn the same as a man if she works 32 hours and the man 40? Same job and same wages, mind you.


Do you want people to have the same hourly wages or the same outcome? Pick one. One is equality, the other is discrimination.

Even salaries are negotiated on an individual basis, something that can and will affect the outcome. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Going to be fun to see once you finish your education and find out how real life actually work.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Why did you completely ignore my question here:
> 
> Do you want people to have the same hourly wages or the same outcome? Pick one. One is equality, the other is discrimination.
> 
> Even salaries are negotiated on an individual basis, something that can and will affect the outcome. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Going to be fun to see once you finish your education and find out how real life actually work.


Because for the fiftieth fucking time, I already posted a link demonstrating discrepancies in hourly pay rates between men and women. When salaries are consistently lower for women, and bosses effectively admit to biased practices as an above study demonstrated, we have gone beyond individual choice. This is a cultural bias against women in our society that has been proven time and time again. People where saying women had equality only a few years after the equal pay act, when illegal practices were hanging out in the open for all the world to see, and have been saying at ever point up to this day. Well we still aren't there. 

The world isn't perfect, and in fact it is quite shit despite having improved immensely. Laws that are supposed to ensure equality and civil rights are regularly ignored, and people don't care as long as it's written on a piece of paper, and then scream "false acuser" if someone actually tries to invoke those laws.

Y'all honest to god just want the status quo to continue because change is scary, and change IS scary. But a stagnant world were we never started initiatives to end human trafficking because "slavery was already illegal, so what can you do" is scarier. At least if you aren't terrified of whatever feminazi tumbler communist antifa boogieman the right wing pundits are prattling on about to buff their viewership these days.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

I got very wordy, apparently, so splitting the things I wanted to say up into multiple posts.

I can agree with a lot of the nominal aims of feminism, along the lines of what @Misha Bordiga Zahradník posted here. I'd consider it troubling for some of those goals if someone stated they didn't think those were a good idea. I do think it's unfortunate that sex workers' rights and putting an end to slut-shaming are conspicuously missing from that list, though.

I also have a lot of issues with organized feminism, to the point where I feel weird being put in a position where I feel like I need to defend feminism or feminist talking points that I think are exaggerated. There is, in my experience, a tendency to say "that's not real feminism" over condemning a certain attitude/behavior (at least that's an area where the distinction between TERF and trans-inclusive feminism gets it right: no one is trying to scuff the feminism label off of TERFs, instead they're being called out as shitty feminists, which is a lot more productive IMO), which becomes an obstacle in speaking with people who have different experiences of feminism than oneself. There is also a pattern of feminists/feminism attempting to speak for all women, including those whose experiences are not represented by the arguments being made. This is fine when speaking about trends and statistics, but I find it pretty irksome when I get told that "all women live in fear of X" when I don't have, and never had, such fears.

I have anxiety disorders. I'm afraid of fucking everything. Yet I'm not afraid of going for a walk at 4 am, or walking under underpasses, or that this random guy I'm passing on the sidewalk is going to rape me. The people who I feel have, throughout my life, done the most to attempt to depriving me of a voice, are feminists. I have been told that not finding Super Princess Peach sexist means I harbor internalized misogyny. I have been told that not categorically rejecting the Women in Refridgerators trope as misogynist means I harbor internalized misogyny (while I may think that such stories are often tasteless, they do reflect a certain pragmatism on the part of the villain - why waste time trying to blow up Superman when it's so much easier to kidnap Lois Lane?). This kind of makes feminism leave a bad taste in my mouth. If men aren't allowed to tell me what I think, why should feminists be?

In my exposure to feminism, this belittling and othering of women with experiences that don't match the accepted narrative is pretty damn common, and it's not a positive trait.

As a genderqueer, if nominally female, individual, I also have seen way too many posts/articles/discussions about rape culture zero in on male-on-female rape and brush off male rape victims and female perpetrators as unimportant. This while the arguably most condoned form of rape in US culture is rape of male prisoners (in the perception of the general public exclusively inmate-on-inmate) - this is something that I've seen people talk about as part of the punishment when being sent to prison, and something I hear police will use as leverage in interrogativas to get the answers they want ("you'll be someone's bitch on the inside"). I have seen way too many writings talking about how all men are potential rapists. And, like, not to be all "not all men," but that's unfair and unproductive. As is dismissing men's concerns about what I think is referred to as "dating in the #metoo era" wholesale - while I don't doubt many men who raise objections may be sleazebags, I know enough men who aren't who feel like they barely dare compliment a woman on, say, her dress or her hair, for fear of being thought to be attempting sexual harassment. Attempting to lay guilt on men for the sin of being men (not toxic masculinity, not inappropriate behavior, but simply the accident of birth that made them male) is not defensible regardless of who does it.


I also personally see the lauded intersectionality of feminism as problematic at best. It's important to look at the issues of all women, not just white, fully-abled, neurotypical, straight Barbie demographics, yes. But at the same time, I find it... I suppose somewhere between appropriative and patronizing for feminists to say "oh, we're going to solve that problem for you," especially when the issue being discussed is one primarily faced by men (be they black, gay, disabled, or any other minority that intersectional feminism tries to include). I don't particularly care if you think the root of men having a harder time getting custody of their children than women is misogyny; telling men who want that situation to change to sit down and wait for women's rights advocates to solve it is infantilizing and inappropriate.


There's also too many major feminist organizations that support bad policy. While I don't want to suggest they mirror the views of all feminists, it's pretty understandable if that kind of things sour people on feminism in general.




Doulyboy said:


> The game encourages and highlights prostitution


While I don't doubt that the portrayal in games like GTA is at best problematic as fuck, the main problem with prostitution is its criminalization; it is not inherently anti-women like some people (sadly including a significant number of feminists) would have you believe. Basically, the way GTA incorporates prostitution may be misogynist (I genuinely don't know; it's not my kind of game), but prostitution itself is not anti-women, nor is there anything saying its inclusion in video games has to be.




Fallowfox said:


> Well, I think we should avoid arguing in favour of kids playing the most notorious of violent games, because it gives ammunition to politicians who want to ban them, because they can say 'look, people want to indoctrinate kids with killing simulators'.
> 
> It's not uncommon for politicians to blame blame school mass shootings on video game violence that children consume:
> 
> ...


I'd also argue that while violent games don't turn kids into school shooters or otherwise bad violent people, there are very good arguments against them being allowed access to age-inappropriate games, even beyond parents getting alarmed and demanding games be banned. For one, subjecting kids to violent media (in any form - this also includes movies etc) should also include taking time to "debrief" them, to discuss what they've seen with them. I for one don't trust parents today to take the time, nor to make time to familiarize themselves with the content enough to be able to actually productively have that discussion. Plus kids are still kids, and depending on how young they are can end up hurting themselves or others re-enacting what they've seen in media while meaning no harm.

It's also worth considering why kids want to play these games. While games do not create violent impulses, there is some evidence suggesting that people who already harbor them tend to display disproportionate preference for violent games compared to other populations.

America already has a problem with enshrining violence and revenge; we don't need to compound that. (Funny story: I grumbled about the general American public's bloodthirst to boyfriend, who is American. He was about to protest, paused, and basically went "wow, you're right." Now, he's not by far a violent person; he can't even stomach moderate degrees of consensual violence, but he still included himself in that statement. American culture is practically marinated in the glorification of violence.)



Fallowfox said:


> But I suppose there could still be concern that less extreme attitudes than 'murder is okay' could be transmitted- such as 'prostitutes should be viewed as lesser than other women,' for example- a view a lot of people already hold in society.


Especially since even if parents debrief kiddo after he puts the controller down, they're sadly unlikely to disabuse him of that notion, yeah.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> Toxic masculinity' is one of the dumbest terms I've ever heard. i find it appalling to put such a massive blame on young men who have to hear from a young age that they are toxic human beings and rapists or whatever. To me in Western countries it seems that more and more men have become completely pathetic and won't even be able to stop a horrific crime from happening because they can't even stand up for themselves let alone women around them. Not to mention in Western countries, even in Greece (an Orthodox nation) there are laws that prevent sexual discrimination. If you discriminate you will face penalty of the law. The way it should be. My problem is I don't like the active and quite open demonetization of men. Simple as that.


I will be the first to say that misandry has wormed its way into a lot of modern feminism and needs to go die in a fire. I absolutely agree that treating all men as potential rapists is deeply problematic. But even I have to acknowledge that toxic masculinity is a useful concept in discussing certain matters. Now, that term is not intended to imply that masculinity is inherently toxic. However, much like being surrounded by airbrushed models in fashion ads has contributed to an increase in eating disorders in teenage girls (at least that was the case like 15 years ago; I don't know if they've gotten a handle on that situation since) there's a point where masculinity/machismo becomes so exaggerated and/or overemphasized that it ends up harming the person that harbors it (sometimes along with his surroundings). That, in my understanding - people who actually consider themselves feminist will be able to explain this better - is what the concept of toxic masculinity is about. Masculinity pushed too far, not masculinity in general.



Yakamaru said:


> I find it hilarious that feminists in general don't date male feminists because a lot of them are creeps, sexually harass and are just outright assholes. Hell, they go in the opposite direction and date "sexist" men.
> 
> www.theguardian.com: Why I won't date another 'male feminist' | Kate Iselin
> www.psychologytoday.com: Feminists Think Sexist Men Are Sexier than "Woke" Men


1. There's a huge difference between not dating men who call themselves feminist as a selling point (which is what Iselin's opinion piece talks about - she's essentially sick of having to figure out which ones are sincere, so she'd rather not bother with the lot) and not dating men who are feminist. Iselin even acknowledges that the men she's sick of aren't the whole of male feminism.

2. The way you introduce the links misrepresents the actual findings being presented (though to be fair, so does the headline of the Psychology Today article). I don't know Dr. Ley's history or motivations, so I can't say whether some bias on his part plays into his presentation of the findings of Gul and Kupfer. It is worth noting, though, that the tone of the article seems to change in the closing two paragraphs. Notably, Gul and Kupfer's findings, as presented, suggested "benevolent sexism," defined as a sort of women-first, glorification-of-femininity bias, makes men more attractive to women, both feminist and not. This is an important distinction, and honestly sounds like the gender equivalent of why people whom it would benefit are happy to vote for right-wing candidates.



insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> It's because it's unattractive behavior. I've said it here previously it's dishonest intentions. We all have BS detectors, and can know when someone isn't true with their feelings. It's creepy as fuck. Presuming you're straight don't you get red flags from women who mostly have guy friends. I certainly do.


... hold up a second. You think... What?
Guys calling themselves feminist just to have a way in with women are absolutely creeps, no two ways about that. It's understandable though not universal for a woman to find an "overconsiderate" (as in some examples in the opinion piece by Kate Iselin that @Yakamaru linked, such as the man who didn't want blowjobs, something that to me suggests that relationship more than anything needed more communication) partner eventually becoming annoying or grating. That does not (and I can't believe you guys are making me say this) mean feminism in a man must be unattractive or insincere. One of my lovers identifies as feminist, to the best of my knowledge, and we butt heads over feminist talking points from time to time. That doesn't make him any less attractive, nor is there any logic to concluding there are any dishonest intentions involved. Nothing creepy about it.

You may also want to do some soul-searching if you think having mostly guy friends is a red flag for women. I have... one female close friend to maybe a handful of male friends. I've been more comfortable as "one of the guys" than in a gaggle of girls since jr high. What exactly are you implying this suggests about me? >:/



Yakamaru said:


> Exactly. They want to get laid, and will do everything to get it. Only problem is, their behaviour is atrocious and off-putting as hell, even for other guys. As a male you are a lot more attractive if you lead, not follow. You know, strength of character, and strength in general?


Of course adopting a label for the purpose of getting laid is sleazy. That's a given. Same for claiming to love children when you don't in order to get it on with that hot single parent, or being kind to someone with the expectation of it leading to that person putting out later on. It's sleazy because it's manipulative and disingenuous, not because of some ridiculous notion of "leading" versus "following."

I'm saying this as someone who is submissive as fuck: Most men who seize leadership are not attractive for it. It does not automatically show any kind of strength. Sometimes it just means he's a jerk who puts himself first and sees leadership as a way to get there. You can be more comfortable following others' lead and still be a strong person. One is a personality trait, and the other is a self-assuredness sort of deal. A follower still chooses what leader they want to follow, and that choice is every bit as important.



Aznig said:


> However, I personally will never respect those cultures. As a woman myself, it makes me (rightfully) uncomfortable and disgusted.


You can respect a culture without respecting or condoning aspects of it that you find disagreeable.

We would have virtually none of the surviving classical Greek and Roman texts that we do have today if not for the role Islamic society had in preserving them. Doesn't mean it wasn't kinda ass to go invading Europe (this is, to be clear, speaking of long-gone history, think around the fall of the Roman empire and the original rise of Christianity in Europe, because I am a library nerd), and I certainly don't condone war as a vehicle for preservation of cultural treasures. But I can appreciate the aspects of the culture that lead to the preservation of these texts and the knowledge contained within.



Fallowfox said:


> But if there was a vocal man-hating minority, you'd succeed by making better arguments and winning them over, rather than shutting them up, wouldn't you? (few feminists would regard shutting any group of women up as a particularly feminist aim)


I'm not sure I can agree with you there; wanting to talk over or silence sex workers (particularly female sex workers) seems to be a popular feminist passtime. :/



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> As for the social side, we let convicted rapists go with six month sentences because it might effect their future, and then shorten those sentences for "good behavior". Only ~1% of rape cases result in felony conviction, and rape kits go untested en masse. And the other side of feminism is dispelling the bullshit men who have been raped go through, because getting raped means you are weak, and therefore not a man; desrving to be treated like a woman.


To be fair, last I heard women got significantly shorter sentences for statutory rape/child sexual abuse. (Treating those as separate because I feel nominally-consensual sex with a teenager and touching the no-nos of prepubescent children to get your rocks off are very different behaviors.) I am also sad to say that in my experience, feminists will be the first to try to erase male rape victims as well as generalize all men into "potential rapists." There's unfairness on either side of the gender divide, here, and while it's different in character, it's still worth keeping in mind. (To be clear I'm not advocating for shorter sentences for rape or whatever, though I will advocate for a rehabilitation-focused justice system rather than the vengeance/punishment focus that's rampant in the US penal system.)


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Are you about to go off about how "gender studies" is a valuable topic and we should trust the research they do?


Gender and queer studies are absolutely a valuable subfield of the social sciences. I don't agree with how I hear they are conducted at some institutions, but if we agree that there are inherent differences between men and women (which you appear to be arguing is the case when you suggest personal inclination is the only factor keeping women out of STEM), then I would say those differences are worth studying. If I could know that it would be a course examining extant gender roles, possible biological reasons for these, differing societal pressures on boys and girls, and other similar aspects, I would have taken a gender studies course long ago. I just don't want to be stuck analyzing car ads for sexism, because that irritates and feels pointless to me.



Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> So a friend approached me and asked what my thought about abortion is.
> 
> I told him that if it's rape, the woman can take an abortion. Any other reason like negligence, I don't allow it.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of problems with this position, I'm afraid:

1. There are reasons other than negilence for unwanted pregnancies to occur (short of removing the ovaries, which comes with its own slew of health problems, no contraceptive method can be considered 100% effective - I say this as someone who got herself sterilized with the most effective method available short of a full hysterectomy), and there are reasons other than unwanted pregnancy to get abortions. Being forced to carry an unviable fetus to term and birth it knowing that her baby may live hours at best is deeply traumatic for a woman. Forcing a woman with pre-eclampsia to carry a fetus that cannot yet survive outside the womb for another X weeks at the risk of her own life is not something I can ever see as defensible. Basically, even if you're opposed to abortion in general, there's a lot of gray area that gets ignored when it's reduced to a binary for-or-against issue.

2. Abortion is not a pleasant, simple, or convenient method of contraception. It can involve stupidly high doses of hormones, for instance, and being on extra hormones is not a pleasant experience. The notion that women sleep around, go "oops, I guess I caught pregnant, tee hee!" and pop into Planned Parenthood for a quick abortion is a strawman that builds on a long and proud puritan tradition of slut-shaming.

3. Plan B is sometimes only available to a woman in theory, is more effective the sooner it is taken after intercourse, and is not 100% effective at the best of times. (Plus, as mentioned by others, the cost can be prohibitive.)

4. While it's sad that women don't always feel confident/comfortable reporting sexual assault, you need to keep in mind that being raped is a trauma, having to recount what happened to police compounds that trauma, and for some rape victims taking a rape kit feels like another violation. This on top of the fact that there's a stigma against rape victims in society. Do I think that in an ideal world all sexual assaults would be reported? Absolutely. Do I think women who don't report their rapes should be punished for it? Absolutely not.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Lastly, if we applied the shitty logic of "it's illegal so there is nothing we can do" to sex trafficking, a whole lot of programs that have saved people's lives would never have been begun.
> 
> Almost forgot to add that.


This is... possibly the most problematic thing I've ever seen you say short of personal attacks. While sex trafficking does exist, and is absolutely an atrocity, most human trafficking is for labor and not sex - worth at least mentioning in passing. What's more worrying is that most of the "sex trafficking" stings made are really targeting consensual sex workers, and most laws enacted ostensibly to target sex trafficking do the same, which ends up endangering a lot of vulnerable populations. (In the short time it's been in place there's already been at least one, and I think multiple deaths as a direct result of SESTA/FOSTA.)

The vast majority of independent anti-sex-trafficking organizations also insist on repeating inaccurate statistics and, again, classifying consensual sex workers as victims rather than adults making their own damn decisions. So I wouldn't put too much stock in them, to be perfectly honest.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I just disproved that.


no you didnt


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Bodily autonomy is a right uniquely denied to women because people give more of a shit about a lump of cells than a full on person.


we are all lumps of cells


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Except they frequently aren't.


Not true, civil rights violations are treated very seriously


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Lawsuits require money, and you can be fired for filing such a lawsuit in any state without substantive whistle-blower protections. Even if you aren't fired, a company you report can enact a program of reprisals against you. EA is famous for putting people through hell to force them to quit. It's called retaliation, and it's often illegal but done anyway because people can get away with it easily.





Anon Raccoon said:


> Literally anyone can file a lawsuit if they think they are being gender pay discriminated.





Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Our justice system treats neither women or men fairly due to sexist stereotypes. And again, I already posted a study indicating cops treated people differently based on skin color. I could bring up a whole mess of data on fucked conviction rates, or issues with custody, but we would get very far afield really quick.


Any system comprised of human beings will always have personal biases and imperfections. Our system is quite fair even with this considered.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> If you have them on paper but they aren't enforced, your rights mean nothing.


your rights are enforced. congrats.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Gerrymandering negatively impacts everyone's ability to be represented, including women. Women are often socially discouraged from voting, or are pressured into punching the same boxes as their spouse.


There aren't many good alternatives to gerrymandering. Is there some problem with people trying to convince their spouses to vote a certain way? I think not. That is good discussion to have.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Death threats and harassment are illegal, but the authorities almost never in enforce it when it occurs online, even when it would be easy for them to do so. Men love to go on harassment campaigns against feminists, or justify these campaigns. And some of these death threats are made in earnest. Rape accusers often receive this treatment even when the rapist in question is later found guilty, up to and including attempts on their life and destruction of their property; all based on the assumption that the woman in question is a liar.


Death or rape threats are never good, but you must understand that police do have limited time and resources so I can see why they don't follow up on every empty threat that is made over the internet.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> People still say  in earnest.
> And this “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” -Todd Akin
> And people still frequently try to justify rape and sexual assault with the excuse, "Boys will be boys".
> Oh, and people literally lost their shit over a razor commercial suggesting men not act like douche-nozzles.


This is proof of dumbassery not rape culture. 


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> By bringing these cultural elements out in the open for discussion and deconstruction, and suggesting better behavior and thought patterns. It's not healthy for us to assume men can't be abused, to assume men have to be emotionally dead or we are womenlike, that women meek by nature, etc. We have a lot of stereotypes, and by discussing and unpacking them we can begin to understand how we think and fall into them.
> 
> Metacognition is a wonderful thing. You should try it some time.


I wish femenists would do a lot less screeching and a lot more talking like this. Wanting to talk about changing culture or stereotypes is less of a demand and more of a mission statement...


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> gross misreadings and cherry pickings of scientific papers.


You know all about doing that don't you 


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Lastly, if we applied the shitty logic of "it's illegal so there is nothing we can do" to sex trafficking, a whole lot of programs that have saved people's lives would never have been begun.
> 
> Almost forgot to add that.


One of the more reasonable things to ask for is better enforcement of existing laws. In most of the things you speak of the job the legal system is doing is quite good.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> Gender and queer studies are absolutely a valuable subfield of the social sciences. I don't agree with how I hear they are conducted at some institutions, but if we agree that there are inherent differences between men and women (which you appear to be arguing is the case when you suggest personal inclination is the only factor keeping women out of STEM), then I would say those differences are worth studying. If I could know that it would be a course examining extant gender roles, possible biological reasons for these, differing societal pressures on boys and girls, and other similar aspects, I would have taken a gender studies course long ago. I just don't want to be stuck analyzing car ads for sexism, because that irritates and feels pointless to me.



I find that there are certain fields of study that are unlikely to add any significant value to the economy.


----------



## HistoricalyIncorrect (Mar 11, 2019)

RoxyHana said:


> Fight for equal rights: I understand and support
> Fight not to use word "pussy" as an insult: I think it's stupid so I rather to something more productive in life...
> 
> Because yes, here in spain feminists are bored and need to find other things to complain about, or just create problems like "why xBox??? why not xGirl" oh come on... x'D



And that's exactly what i am talking about. I am not for equal rights (not everywhere) for rather obvious reasons. Feminism in Arabian countries? But if course! Feminism to feminise everything that is in reach... well, the answer should be obvious


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I find that there are certain fields of study that are unlikely to add any significant value to the economy.


And I find that these studies have the potential to both increase our understanding of human development both before and after birth, and to improve the quality of mental health care through deeper understanding of the factors that may effect the individuals' issues. More effective health care is definitely a significant value added both to human quality of life and the economy.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> Now, that term is not intended to imply that masculinity is inherently toxic.


Then you might want to rethink your terminology. Imagine if it was reversed to 'toxic femininity.' How do you think people would react? They'd completely loose their minds.



quoting_mungo said:


> there's a point where masculinity/machismo becomes so exaggerated and/or overemphasized that it ends up harming the person that harbors it (sometimes along with his surroundings). That, in my understanding - people who actually consider themselves feminist will be able to explain this better - is what the concept of toxic masculinity is about. Masculinity pushed too far, not masculinity in general.


As I said. I see a lot more men from Western countries who can't stand up for themselves, and agreeing with things like feminism even when they clearly don't internally. It's pathetic many would prefer to go cower in a corner opposed to being able to speak their own minds. I think this is because men and young boys have been taught that their nature is problematic. Seriously part of this is what do you guys want in a man? In ancient Greece, most (especially educated) men turned gay because they oppressed women and kept them locked indoors and uneducated. They had nothing in common with their own wives, so they ended up turning to (or sucking =p) each other. You're making a grave mistake in terms of allowing healthy relationships.


In general I also see a lot on here about the Islamic world. I really doubt there are many (if any) Muslim furries out there who could comment on this. (This is because Islam is extremely conservative religion when practiced) Have many of you ever spent time in an Islamic environment or been to any Muslim countries? They're not that tolerant to women's rights, gays etc. Imagine what they'll think about us for instance. Many of my closest friends are Muslim, and I have experience working in Islamic environments. The worst part was I always had to deal with arrogant Western women come try and make a point around Muslim men by dressing provocatively, and trying to teach them feminist values (A huge no in this environment) and then they'd wonder why something bad would happen to them. Which I would actually feel partially responsible for, as I couldn't do anything.

I actually really like many parts of the religion (for philosophical reasons) and I'll be in the Middle East again pretty soon. But Hell I'd be damned to even let the stupid idea of just viewing something like this website cross my mind while I'm there. I have no intention of serious penalty for something so pointless and liking anthropomorphic characters etc. How about going to the Middle East and expressing feminist values, gayness, furry things and so on. Go ahead and see what happens. You likely won't return home. (Actually don't do that. It's a really bad idea.)

*Note this is not for all Muslim countries. Specifically applies to ones that enforce religious laws.


----------



## zenmaldita (Mar 11, 2019)

feminism in games huh
well uh... as a woman... I'm all for feminism that prevents any danger _*in my real life*_
I think all efforts regarding gender equality should be focused on real world issues/problems instead of whatever the game developers do.


----------



## larigot (Mar 11, 2019)

I think the overal effect of the movement has been quite positive, for example, women are getting more influence in policy making. Seeing as about half of any population is female and there a certain gender specific issues (i.e. abortion) it would make sense to see more female representatives in governments.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

larigot said:


> I think the overal effect of the movement has been quite positive, for example, women are getting more influence in policy making. Seeing as about half of any population is female and there a certain gender specific issues (i.e. abortion) it would make sense to see more female representatives in governments.


It's as if we never had a female senator, or a congresswomen or female politicians


----------



## larigot (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> It's as if we never had a female senator, or a congresswomen or female politicians


Sure there are, but they have always been underrepresented.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

larigot said:


> Sure there are, but they have always been underrepresented.


The issue with you people is that they have to be "represented" because they're a woman, how about just pick the people who's capable of doing their job eh?

Nobody cares what your private parts is


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> Then you might want to rethink your terminology. Imagine if it was reversed to 'toxic femininity.' How do you think people would react? They'd completely loose their minds.


Not really. "Toxic masculinity" literally means "masculinity which is toxic," not "masculinity, all of which is toxic." If you say "brown dogs," are you suggesting all dogs are brown? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're having trouble with this distinction because English is not your first language, but that also means "please listen when people tell you that you're misunderstanding the concept you're criticizing."



insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> As I said. I see a lot more men from Western countries who can't stand up for themselves, and agreeing with things like feminism even when they clearly don't internally. It's pathetic many would prefer to go cower in a corner opposed to being able to speak their own minds. I think this is because men and young boys have been taught that their nature is problematic. Seriously part of this is what do you guys want in a man? In ancient Greece, most (especially educated) men turned gay because they oppressed women and kept them locked indoors and uneducated. They had nothing in common with their own wives, so they ended up turning to (or sucking =p) each other. You're making a grave mistake in terms of allowing healthy relationships.


Healthy relationships involve expressing your emotions. Something that is traditionally viewed as weakness in a man, and even moreso within the framework of toxic masculinity. That harms the man who thinks real boys/men don't cry. That harms his relationship with the people close to him whom he keeps at arm's length and doesn't communicate with for fear of seeming "weak." That can potentially harm the people around him as he feels the need to assert his strength and does so through aggression.

There's definitely things in contemporary western culture that work against healthy relationships. There's even things within feminism that work against healthy relationships in some cases. That doesn't mean feminist men inherently are speaking at cross purposes with their internal values (and honestly claiming they are is pretty damn insulting). It doesn't mean that your dichotomy of someone either cowering in a corner or speaking their mind has a place in this discussion (as by raising it you're pretty strongly implying that men who embrace feminism belong to the former group, which again is pretty damn insulting).

We shouldn't be teaching _anyone_ that their nature is problematic. But we also should have a long, hard think about how much of that "nature" is actually the product of nurture, and what behaviors are desirable in a functioning society. It's in the nature of very small children regardless of sex to be possessive of toys to the point of taking toys from other children and possibly even hitting their playmates over it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them hitting each other is bad or shouldn't be trying to teach them to share.



insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> I really doubt there are many (if any) Muslim furries out there who could comment on this. (This is because Islam is extremely conservative religion when practiced)


There are certainly significant numbers of Muslim furries out there - I can say this with confidence as my position on FA staff for almost five years exposed me to a greater variety of users than most people see. Many of them don't feel comfortable speaking up on subjects like this because of pervasive Islamophobia within and outside of the furry community. It's also frankly ludicrous to claim that Islam somehow is inherently conservative. There are as many ways to practice a religion as there are people, and Islam is no exception to this.

I can appreciate your point that some people go about visiting other cultures in disrespectful ways. There is _some_ truth to the adage "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." But that doesn't mean the culture is above criticism, nor that we need to condemn it as a whole.


----------



## zenmaldita (Mar 11, 2019)

as long as the politician doesn't screw us more than we are screwed, I don't care if they're man or woman.

spoiler: all our politicians will screw us.
disclaimer: I mean, my country's politicians. Idk about yours.


----------



## larigot (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The issue with you people is that they have to be "represented" because they're a woman, how about just pick the people who's capable of doing their job eh?
> 
> Nobody cares what your private parts is



Unfortunatly voters don't always pick the people who are the most capable for the job.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

larigot said:


> Unfortunatly voters don't always pick the people who are the most capable for the job.


If you're using Trump as an example, then let me tell you that you are correct


But I rather pick a dumb politician (Trump) than an evil one (Hillary)


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> It's as if we never had a female senator, or a congresswomen or female politicians


Honestly I think everyone is aware we have plenty of women in political positions. My argument for you (with all due respect) is this,

If a country that is unfair to (insert group) puts one in office or any other political position, but a noticeable portion of society is still biased and still treat (that group) unfairly, whether socially, legally, statistically, or economically,then it didn't really do much. 

For instance, when Obama got elected to the highest position and power, while it was a great moment in history for African Americans to many, it didn't really reduce racist perceptions people have of each other in the United States like so many had hoped.

I think women have it great in America and other countries in particular when I look at the world as a whole. However, there are still things women and other groups (including men as well) go through that are unfair even in my own country to some degree. No one has it fairly completely, and while we have made lots of progress that we should be proud of, we can still take further steps of improvement, to benefit everyone.

Is feminism needed in the world? Yes
Could we practice feminism without being jerks to men in the process? Absolutely


----------



## larigot (Mar 11, 2019)

zenmaldita said:


> as long as the politician doesn't screw us more than we are screwed, I don't care if they're man or woman.
> 
> spoiler: all our politicians will screw us.
> disclaimer: I mean, my country's politicians. Idk about yours.



My country has its social policies mostly in order, but I'm sure a country like the US could benefit from more women in power if it wants to tackle their social issues.


----------



## larigot (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> If you're using Trump as an example, then let me tell you that you are correct
> 
> 
> But I rather pick a dumb politician (Trump) than an evil one (Hillary)



Hillary comes across as damn shady sometimes bit the reputation of her being evil has partly to do with sexism.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> If a country that is unfair to (insert group) puts one in office or any other political position, but a noticeable portion of society is still biased and still treat (that group) unfairly, whether socially, legally, statistically, or economically,then it didn't really do much.


Hmm 
To properly think about this, I have to draw some kind of real life examples

The best I can think of is that muslim Congresswoman

And I didnt really put too much attention on her because I was far more preoccupied with AOC's dumb policies

So I don't have any opinions of Ilhan Omar yet.

In regards to your question, I still need to think about this further


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Hmm
> To properly think about this, I have to draw some kind of real life examples
> 
> The best I can think of is that muslim Congresswoman
> ...


Some call it tokenism. It's when you put a certain member of a group into a position of fame, power, or wealth for the purpose of appealing to other members of that group.

It can be common politically.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

larigot said:


> Hillary comes across as damn shady sometimes bit the reputation of her being evil has partly to do with sexism.


You must've missed the memo about the leaked emails of Hillary





But I'll be fair, here is a video of shhtty things about Trump






Disclaimer: this video was made on 2016 but what I'm trying to stress out is the position we were in between those two during that time,


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

zenmaldita said:


> feminism in games huh
> well uh... as a woman... I'm all for feminism that prevents any danger _*in my real life*_
> I think all efforts regarding gender equality should be focused on real world issues/problems instead of whatever the game developers do.


Well, depending on your definition of "feminism in games", that is.

If talking about inclusion of female characters in "non-female" settings (military shooters, etc.), I see that more as a customization option to expand the demographic reach than anything else - more and more women are playing videogames, therefore including an ability to play as female makes sense. Honestly, the whole topic always felt to me like a massive overreaction towards rather minor changes in AAA games that already have a baffling amount of actual issues worth complaining about (from promoting gambling to intentionally confusing customers with convoluted pre-order options) - the fact that a lot of people chose to outrage about "games being too pussyfied" over that is kinda telling in a way.

If talking about feminism in gaming industry.. Well, gaming industry _can_ be pretty misogynistic, as crapshow with Riot Games proved recently. "Feminism in games" in this context makes perfect sense, because there are developers in real life were actually affected by the whole gender issue, therefore they seek some protection and community to defend themselves in case of situations like GamerGate or Riot Games scandal.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

For fuck's sake people: I'm supposed to be preparing for work right now, not correcting basic online misinformation. So to focus on low hanging fruit...


Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> It's as if we never had a female senator, or a congresswomen or female politicians


And we had a black president in the United States, so racism is dead.

Disregarding that the above example should provide a fairly good example of how crock this line of argument is (show of hands: Who recalls the multi-year discourse about whether Obama was actually an American or a Muslim Foreigner part of (((their))) conspiracy? Who recalls the immediate aftermath of the RNC convention that referred to Obama as an empty chair, which was - coincidentally - followed almost _immediately_ by a slew of instances of people "randomly" hanging chairs from trees and posting as much on social media? Who remembers the slew of political cartoons depicting his wife as just shy of a literal ape?), there is still a gross imbalance politically in terms of representation for various demographics. And while one could at least make an argument for why young politicians - of any sex or gender - tend to be relatively scarce (such as time to make a name for oneself and build a portfolio), it is... in a word, a hand wave to say "The reason so non-white male politicians in the US are so rare is because they're just not interested / not cut out for the task".


Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The issue with you people is that they have to be "represented" because they're a woman, how about just pick the people who's capable of doing their job eh?


Because society be fucked up like that and will more often than not choose a man instead of a woman for a job even when their resumes are literally identical.


----------



## luffy (Mar 11, 2019)

FINAL warning for this thread.  Keep it on topic or it gets locked.  No more hardly relevant memes, irrelevant videos, just direct replies to the topic at hand, please.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> Not really. "Toxic masculinity" literally means "masculinity which is toxic," not "masculinity, all of which is toxic." If you say "brown dogs," are you suggesting all dogs are brown? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're having trouble with this distinction because English is not your first language, but that also means "please listen when people tell you that you're misunderstanding the concept you're criticizing."


So my problem is not with the word itself, but the choice of words and the implications behind it. Let's change it to 'toxic [insert nationality/race here]'. See how quickly this becomes 'hate speach?' We can use synonyms for 'toxic' such as 'poisonous' or 'deadly'. It's not that I have a problem with the word itself or even if it's use. My problem is with double standards and implications. Words have meaning and they should be picked carefully. As I've mentioned way back in this thread. The part of the world I'm in has a massive problem with nationalism and ethnic conflict. Merely 20-30 years ago many people lost their lives here due to such stupidity. If you look at Balkan nationalism you here similar rhetoric left and right and all over the place but instead of it being focused on gender it's nationality or religion. And English is actually my first and primary language, though I think my grammar, nuances, and other areas of my thought process are certainly influenced from Greek.



quoting_mungo said:


> Healthy relationships involve expressing your emotions. Something that is traditionally viewed as weakness in a man, and even moreso within the framework of toxic masculinity. That harms the man who thinks real boys/men don't cry. That harms his relationship with the people close to him whom he keeps at arm's length and doesn't communicate with for fear of seeming "weak." That can potentially harm the people around him as he feels the need to assert his strength and does so through aggression.



Yay we agree on something  

This is not weakness. This is strength. Being able to be open and honest with your emotions is strength and you are more than correct that this is a healthy approach. I really don't understand why this is constantly called weakness. And I really don't think that there is any man that would view this as weakness, other than an emotionally weak man. I just don't believe this is traditionally reinforced. I think learning how not to cry about spilled milk and to engage in problem solving is a part of growing up and emotional development. And this is reinforced by good fathers.



quoting_mungo said:


> There are certainly significant numbers of Muslim furries out there - I can say this with confidence as my position on FA staff for almost five years exposed me to a greater variety of users than most people see. Many of them don't feel comfortable speaking up on subjects like this because of pervasive Islamophobia within and outside of the furry community. It's also frankly ludicrous to claim that Islam somehow is inherently conservative. There are as many ways to practice a religion as there are people, and Islam is no exception to this.
> 
> I can appreciate your point that some people go about visiting other cultures in disrespectful ways. There is _some_ truth to the adage "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." But that doesn't mean the culture is above criticism, nor that we need to condemn it as a whole.



Well I didn't say 'any'. I said 'many'. I put that in parenthesis for a reason. But yeah it's an extremely socially conservative religion. Look at all the rules practicing Muslims need to follow. Here are a few, pray 5 times a day,  no sex before marriage, strict dietary rules, ie. no pork, eating halal, and prohibition of alcohol, among many more. In some of the more conservative Islamic nations that I have been to that enforce Sharia (Which I won't specifically name publicly for my own personal security reasons) things like public display of affection, women being allowed to dress freely, and mocking 'any' religion (especially Islam) are strictly prohibited, and harshly punished. I really don't think these are things that can be considered anywhere close to progressive from a Western framework. It's different values. And that's okay. I don't agree with them. But I won't actively break them when in these countries, not just because of the obvious consequences but because it is my duty to play by their rules. So to say 'I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto,' fits perfectly here. There are many people that are not strict practitioners and that's fine such as many Balkan Muslims. I believe anyone should practice their own religion however they want to. But I refuse to pretend that the religion isn't conservative especially when it comes to something like feminism and or sexuality.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

Attaman said:


> Because society be fucked up like that and will more often than not choose a man instead of a woman for a job even when their resumes are literally identical.


I was under the impression that politicians are put into positions by the people. 

And in theory the population of the United States is 50/50 male to female


----------



## AppleButt (Mar 11, 2019)

My thoughts on feminism are mostly indifferent.  I’ve never been affected by it.

I will admit that I get a bit weirded out when a man loudly claims to be feminist though.  I’m not saying a man can’t be a feminists, but when they wear it like a badge I feel like they’re hiding something...


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

AppleButt said:


> My thoughts on feminism are mostly indifferent.  I’ve never been affected by it.
> 
> I will admit that I get a bit weirded out when a man loudly claims to be feminist though.  I’m not saying a man can’t be a feminists, but when they wear it like a badge I feel like they’re hiding something...


Yeah usually cuz they just want to get laid, and are too scared to even express that openly and honestly. Idk, if toxic masculinity exists this is it XD


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> .....and are too scared to even express that openly and honestly. Idk if toxic masculinity exists this is it XD


I think I kind of feel this is the case
Like I feel like people are peer pressured into supporting "THIRD WAVE FEMINISM"


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

*Does the sign of the cross before typing.*

To start off, I'm fine with feminism for the most part, even though I have pretty conservative views. Most people posting on this thread have conceded that women still face certain obstacles here in the States and even more obstacles depending where they live around world. The statistics back that up. Anyone trying to say women face absolutely no gender discrimination, even here in the States, is either uninformed or ignoring the facts.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

Unicon said:


> *Does the sign of the cross before typing.*
> 
> To start off, I'm fine with feminism for the most part, even though I have pretty conservative views. Most people posting on this thread have conceded that women still face certain obstacles here in the States and even more obstacles depending where they live around world. The statistics back that up. Anyone trying to say women face absolutely no gender discrimination, even here in the States, is either uninformed or ignoring the facts.



*kisses cross and looks to the sky*

Yeah dude I have a similar view. I don't have a problem with feminism either. I'm all for equality, and especially equality of opportunity, but not outcome. I believe women face many issues, and obstacles in their lives, for instance creepy dudes. That really sucks. And many more. And I believe we as men have an obligation to stand behind women when they face true discrimination. For instance, if a shopkeeper pays his female employees less than male ones to do the same job It's wrong!

But I find this funny because if business were allowed to discriminate like that then there is no economic incentive to hire men! Highest prooduction for the least cost! Economics 101. (Take it from the Greek guy )

I just don't like what modern 3rd wave feminism stands for at all. Mostly because of their lazy attempt to ignore/cover up basic facts, and the attack on masculinity. But to change my mind, the feminist movement will first have to look to themselves and get rid of the radical element. You can't win an argument if you just alienate everyone else.


----------



## dragon-in-sight (Mar 11, 2019)

It depends of what kind of feminism you mean. If you mean the pursuit for equal rights between genders I'm abseloutly for that. There are still many fields of society, where women are still disrearded, discriminated or even worse. Just a few days ago I heared a report about female E-Sports teams, and the bashing they get to hear from their male colleagues. It was just disgusting. In times where misogyny and macho culture are spreading again, the fight for women rights shows to be more then necessary.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> But I find this funny because if business were allowed to discriminate like that then there is no economic incentive to hire men! Highest prooduction for the least cost! Economics 101. (Take it from the Greek guy )


I don't think you understand economics or the intent behind gender discrimination protections if that is a serious answer. If the male and female workers in the bakery are doing the same work for the duration per day, then they absolutely should have equal pay. There is no disincentive to mandating that women doing the same type and amount of work as their male colleagues should receive pay commensurate to them. It is leveling the playing for women and prospective employees will have to be employed on their merit.

As a philosophical aside, if your one advantage to an employer is that you are cheap labor, your employment prospects aren't strong.


insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> I just don't like what modern 3rd wave feminism stands for at all. Mostly because of their lazy attempt to ignore/cover up basic facts, and the attack on masculinity. But to change my mind, the feminist movement will first have to look to themselves and get rid of the radical element.


Before I fully reply to this, could you articulate to me exactly what you think "third wave feminism" is?

I see a couple people railing against this and I'm curious as to where they are coming from.


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

Unicon said:


> I don't think you understand economics or the intent behind gender discrimination if that is a serious answer. If the male and female workers in the bakery are doing the same work for the duration per day, then they absolutely should have equal pay. There is no disincentive to mandating that women doing the same type and amount of work as their male colleagues should receive pay commensurate to them. It is leveling the playing for women and prospective employees will have to be employed on their merit.


Basically what I said in different words. I agree with you m8 and I'm very serious. Don't worry I'm not trying to be hostile here at all lol =p
Although most of us are economically handicapped not all Greeks are clueless  <--- (That was not serious)



Unicon said:


> As a philosophical aside, if your one advantage to an employer is that you are cheap labor, your employment prospects aren't strong.


And yes the rule for employment is to employ those who get the most work done at the cheapest cost. Presuming that women and men are equally as productive at working at a bakery you would hire women if you could pay them less to cut costs. Here's a great real world example. IT across Eastern Europe is highly profitable right now. An IT worker in Ukraine will do the same (if not a better job) job than their American counterpart for nearly a fourth of the price. That money goes very far in Ukraine considering their standard of living. If anything by these set of propositions it's unfair to the American worker. In the bakery example, men. (For the record I don't believe men have it worse or anything btw)




Unicon said:


> Before I fully reply to this, could you articulate to me exactly what you think "third wave feminism" is?
> 
> I see a couple people railing against this and I'm curious as to where they are coming from.


Yeah dude I don't got a lot of time irl to get too into this at the moment, so I'll save myself the explanation and leave you a wikipedia article 

Here you are my friend,
Third-wave feminism - Wikipedia

Also just discovered at thing called 4th wave feminism, didin't even know it existed Maybe this is more what I'm referring to,
Fourth-wave feminism - Wikipedia


----------



## Furrium (Mar 11, 2019)

luffy said:


> FINAL warning for this thread.  Keep it on topic or it gets locked.  No more hardly relevant memes, irrelevant videos, just direct replies to the topic at hand, please.



Here the world war began, unstoppable reaction, that will lead ultimately to the explosion. Who knew that a simple question could create such a discussion.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> Basically what I said in different words. I agree with you m8 and I'm very serious. Don't worry I'm not trying to be hostile here at all lol =p
> Although most of us are economically handicapped not all Greeks are clueless  <--- (That was not serious)


I wouldn't say I'm worried, but I'm perplexed since you did say:


insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> And I believe we as men have an obligation to stand behind women when they face true discrimination. *For instance, if a shopkeeper pays his female employees less than male ones to do the same job It's wrong!
> 
> But I find this funny because if business were allowed to discriminate like that then there is no economic incentive to hire men! Highest prooduction for the least cost!* Economics 101. (Take it from the Greek guy )


That is diametrically opposed to what I stated, but if you had a change of heart about what you said, just admit it instead of acting like you agreed with me from the start. 


insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> And yes the rule for employment is to employ those who get the most work done at the cheapest cost. Presuming that women and men are equally as productive at working at a bakery you would hire women if you could pay them less to cut costs. Here's a great real world example. IT across Eastern Europe is highly profitable right now. An IT worker in Ukraine will do the same (if not a better job) job than their American counterpart for nearly a fourth of the price. That money goes very far in Ukraine considering their standard of living. If anything by these set of propositions it's unfair to the American worker. In the bakery example, men. (For the record I don't believe men have it worse or anything btw)


Except there is a marked difference between skilled foreign contractors able to negotiate for their salaries based on their income expectations domestically and prospective employees for a *bakery *receiving lower pay for imply being a woman.

There is no parallel here.


insertgenericnamehere1 said:


> Yeah dude I don't got a lot of time irl to get too into this at the moment, so I'll save myself the explanation and leave you a wikipedia article
> 
> Here you are my friend,
> Third-wave feminism - Wikipedia
> ...


I was expecting you to define in your own words so I knew you knew what you were talking about, but fine. Plus, yes, fourth-wave feminism has been a thing, which I would think a man who has grievances with third-wave feminism would know, especially since they may see fourth-wave feminism as a "reformed" version of feminism or a "worse" version.

Not that I'm implying feminism needs to be reformed or any phase is worse in any major way.

However, quoting your own source, which I feel comfortable saying you didn't read before now:


> *Violence against women*
> 
> Violence against women, including rape, domestic violence, and sexual harassment, became a central issue. Organizations such as V-Day formed with the goal of ending gender violence, and artistic expressions, such as _The Vagina Monologues,_ generated awareness. Third-wave feminists wanted to transform traditional notions of sexuality and embrace "an exploration of women's feelings about sexuality that included vagina-centred topics as diverse as orgasm, birth, and rape".
> 
> ...


This aren't exactly controversial demands, even from my perspective.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2019)

Useless, and a shell of a movement. Social progress is brought about by economic prosperity and scientific progress, not by some hate-filled marxist ideologues. That's why feminists would be as useless in the third world as they already are in the West, because these societies are still brutal, not because of muh toxic masculinity, but because people there are largely poor.

Moreover it should be recognized as a hate movement, here's why :
When they talk about white/male privilege, replace "white man" with "Jew" and you find yourself with Nazi rhetoric.
When they talk about toxic masculinity, replace "man" with "black" and you find yourself with Jim Crow rhetoric.
So if these two rhetorics are bad, how on Earth is it okay to use similar rhetoric to talk about white men?


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Useless, and a shell of a movement. Social progress is brought about by economic prosperity and scientific progress, not by some hate-filled marxist ideologues. That's why feminists would be as useless in the third world as they already are in the West, because these societies are still brutal, not because of muh toxic masculinity, but because people there are largely poor.
> 
> Moreover it should be recognized as a hate movement, here's why :
> When they talk about white/male privilege, replace "white man" with "Jew" and you find yourself with Nazi rhetoric.
> ...


I don't know why I'm replying the blatant bait, probably boredom, but this thread makes a decent case for why women in the first and third world do need feminism. Except for you and one other poster,  everybody has basically acknowledged at least in part the obstacles women still face in terms of wage disparity, hiring discrimination, sexual harassment protections, and reproductive rights. You could probably list even more severe obstacles in the third world.

You could also consider that though the Industrial Revolution was going on full steam by the 1830s, it still took until around 1865 for slavery to end in the United States ... after a violent civil war. Civil rights didn't come until various civil rights leaders made a push for them in the 1960s. You need a movement to foster social change since rights generally aren't given out just because the economy is doing well or science is advancing. 

Unrelated, your profile is precious: Userpage of TheBLACKFrankGulotta -- Fur Affinity [dot] net


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2019)

Unicon said:


> I don't know why I'm replying the blatant bait, probably boredom, but this thread makes a decent case for why women in the first and third world do need feminism. Except for you and one other poster,  everybody has basically acknowledged at least in part the obstacles women still face in terms of wage disparity, hiring discrimination, sexual harassment protections, and reproductive rights. You could probably list even more severe obstacles in the third world.
> 
> You could also consider that though the Industrial Revolution was going on full steam by the 1830s, it still took until around 1865 for slavery to end in the United States ... after a violent civil war. Civil rights didn't come until various civil rights leaders made a push for them in the 1960s. You need a movement to foster social change since rights generally aren't given out just because the economy is doing well or science is advancing.
> 
> Unrelated, your profile is precious: Userpage of TheBLACKFrankGulotta -- Fur Affinity [dot] net



Wage disparities? none due to sexism. The data is out, as if simple logic had not been enough to previously obliterate this sham for years beforehands. Hiring discrimination? no actual proof. Sexual harassment protection? yeah sexual assault is a crime. So is robbery. Are we also living in a robbery culture that doesn't do enough to stop robbers?
All in all, fuminists would be absolutely useless to solve any of these problems anyway.

The Industrial revolution doesn't mean that a solid middle class suddenly magically appeared, it's more complicated than that. Most of the population was still very poor. And for some reason feminists then didn't demand equal representation of coal miners and factory workers. Moreover, the South was much more agrarian, poorer and less industrialized than the North, that's primarily why the North won the war. That's a good indication I would say.

And thanks


----------



## Deleted member 106754 (Mar 11, 2019)

Not a fan on feminism as a whole and what it is today.

I will not deny that jumping back in time, feminism probably has played it's part for the greater good of equality, and that there's things that could probably be improved upon making society a bit more even today, but...

I have some serious problems with how a lot of modern views from feminists and the feminine parties are and what their opinions are based upon. The truth is that men and women are not the same and cannot be fabricated to be so or act such, cannot be seen nor treated the same on every field there is, but this doesn't mean either that one sex should be more impactful on a bigger scale how we run our societies down to the book, or be a reason to keep one sex away from becoming successful in an area they strive to be. I don't personally have a solution to certain problems that might be, but I don't want to be treated as a crook for merely existing. Growing up in a family with 4 sisters as the only boy I never had an influence that women are less in any way, if anything it could be quite the uphill battle at times for me, growing up things just were, but the last 10 years or so feminism personally has given off a really sour taste.

In a way I can understand that some people from other places than my own, maybe didn't grow up in an area, town or country which has been very pro equality and where things might be worse, making them speak out so horribly of something I represent, but damn if it gets tiring and some of these special snowflakes needs to get a reality grip. Various media, radio, games as mentioned in the first post, many places getting a skewed version of some reality that a group wants or seeks. Not all feminists are the bad kind, but the word today has a bad association in my opinion and hearing that word just brings bad thoughts and no good. In most cases it's not equality it's about, but a contest for superiority.

I could probably spend some time writing up a really long post explaining more why I feel a certain way but I have the feeling it's not quite worth the time. I cannot take most feminism seriously, and I'm more for equality and feminism is sadly not it in my eyes.


----------



## Deleted member 111470 (Mar 11, 2019)

I don't feel about feminism. I feel about moneyism. Basically, as long as I'm getting paid decent and I don't get sent to war, I don't give a fucc about anything ayyy lmao xDdDdDd


----------



## idkthough120 (Mar 11, 2019)

Feminism... uhhhhhhhhhhhhh what's that...?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Some Users (who suspiciously seem to have registered solely so that they can accuse people of being marxists) have alleged that 'the data' shows that hiring discrimination doesn't exist.

Those users declined to provide us with this data, so I have taken that burden upon myself.

There is Data on this subject and it shows that hiring discrimination exists.
academic.oup.com: Sex Discrimination in Restaurant Hiring: An Audit Study *
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/0022-3514.55.2.178

Overall the existence of a gender wage gap harms economic growth. Many users identifying with more conservative political perspectives are very keen to speak about the importance of the economy, so they should be aware that increased wage equality and economic growth go hand-in-glove; this is an area where you and feminists can cooperate together to achieve *both* of your political goals! Imagine that?


----------



## larigot (Mar 11, 2019)

whyt31 said:


> Feminism... uhhhhhhhhhhhhh what's that...?



It has to do with equality for the element fe, aka iron.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Some Users (who suspiciously seem to have registered solely so that they can accuse people of being marxists) have alleged that 'the data' shows that hiring discrimination doesn't exist.
> 
> Those users declined to provide us with this data, so I have taken that burden upon myself.
> 
> ...


LOL, the wage gap is a myth fee.org: Harvard Study: "Gender Wage Gap" Explained Entirely by Work Choices of Men and Women | John Phelan


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Frank Gulotta said:


> Wage disparities? none due to sexism. The data is out, as if simple logic had not been enough to previously obliterate this sham for years beforehands. Hiring discrimination? no actual proof. Sexual harassment protection? yeah sexual assault is a crime. So is robbery. Are we also living in a robbery culture that doesn't do enough to stop robbers?


As you should know,the gender pay gap is the average difference between men's and women's earnings. In most jobs, in practically all countries, women earn less than men. I think one of the problems on this thread is that people are mixing up how different jurisdictions assess and deal with the gender pay gap and other "feminist" issues.

For instance, the EU defines the gender pay gap as the average difference between men's and women's hourly earnings, while here in the States we define it as the ratio of women's to men's median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round workers. There's also other methods, like measuring only the difference between workers within one company or between workers with similar jobs and try to adjust for some other explanations for the existence of the gender pay gap.

The gender pay gap is often categorized into "unadjusted" and "adjusted" pay gaps. The unadjusted pay gap is basically the "raw" difference between men and women's earnings whereas the adjusted pay gap usually takes into account some factors that impact the gap’s existence, such as differences in education, job experience, job sector, job position, number of hours worked, marital status, and parenthood status.

Now, the adjusted pay is substantially smaller than the unadjusted pay gap since the adjusted pay gap is only meant to measure overt workplace discrimination against women workers. This has led more people - *cough* some people here *cough* - to reject sexism being a factor behind the pay gap, but this view blithely ignores that the origins of the adjusted factors can be argued to be sexist in themselves, as they are theorized to be almost entirely the result of the different societal pressures on males and females as well as the fact that mothers miss out on pay as the result of maternity leave.

This link addresses a few of the points some people choose to ignore here: archive.is: Myth Busting the Pay Gap


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

This link addresses a few of the points some people choose to ignore here: archive.is: Myth Busting the Pay Gap

For those who can't open links.



> Surely it can’t be true. President Kennedy signed the Equal Pay Act in 1963. The very next year Congress passed Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which banned sex discrimination at work. Yet nearly fifty years later, women still make less than men.
> (sic)
> Earlier this week, the Paycheck Fairness Act failed to advance in the Senate, triggering a new round of conversation about the pay gap and what the numbers really mean. Research shows that even though equal pay for women is a legal right, it is not yet a reality. Despite the evidence, myths that women’s choices or other legitimate factors are the “real” cause of the pay gap persist. So does confusion about how to measure the gap and what figures to use. That’s why today, we are going to bust a few myths.
> 
> ...


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Please go back a few pages and read my sources debunking the "gender wage gap is a myth" nonsense.

@quoting_mungo I'm pro sex worker, I forgot to include it in the list. That is one of my biggest complaints about most modern liberal feminists. 

And anti-sex worker legistlation like FOSTA/SESTA worsens human sex trafficking. 

Also, male on male rape and violence is a problem. Sexist stereotypes limiting the prosecution of women for rape, abuse, and child molestation is a problem. 

Sorry if I came off a bit SWERFy. 

And thank you for your perspective and input on the topic and on my posts.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Frank Gulotta said:


> LOL, the wage gap is a myth fee.org: Harvard Study: "Gender Wage Gap" Explained Entirely by Work Choices of Men and Women | John Phelan



This is an article by a think-tank that is intended to promote Libertarian policy, so it's not exactly impartial. 

They do link to the original Harvard source at least. If you read that paper the authors aren't suggesting that the entire wage gap in the economy is solely explained by (presumably poor) female choices. 

The authors deliberately selected a situation in which numerous factors known to cause a gender wage gap were absent (so this study isn't generalised as a comment on all possible causes of the gender wage gap; it's deliberately designed to exclude many of them in fact), and investigated the causes for the gap that still persisted. 
The authors don't make any pernicious comments about the choices women make, instead recommending work place practices that can be used to reduce the economic setback that women take as a result of those choices: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/bolotnyy/files/be_gendergap.pdf


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2019)

Unicon said:


> This link addresses a few of the points some people choose to ignore here: archive.is: Myth Busting the Pay Gap
> 
> For those can't open links.


Because on average, women choose to work fewer averages. I would know that, I chose to work part time and as a result, shockers, DESPITE being male I make less money than everyone (yes, that includes women) who choose to work full time and more. It has to do with what people CHOOSE to do. Past this point, feminists are either pretending to control what women do in a fascistic manner, or they're just saying "hey, there's a problem that exists" so they could still retain a shred of relevancy.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> This is an article by a think-tank that is intended to promote Libertarian policy, so it's not exactly impartial.
> 
> They do link to the original Harvard source at least. If you read that paper the authors aren't suggesting that the entire wage gap in the economy is solely explained by (presumably poor) female choices.
> 
> ...


It's probably worth noting the wage gap in this controlled environment is substantially lower than the average....


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> This is an article by a think-tank that is intended to promote Libertarian policy, so it's not exactly impartial.
> 
> They do link to the original Harvard source at least. If you read that paper the authors aren't suggesting that the entire wage gap in the economy is solely explained by (presumably poor) female choices.
> 
> ...


It's not impartial... as opposed to feminist research I suppose, which for some magical reason is unbiased? lol I've never seen anyone more biased than feminists.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.1110.0691?journalCode=orsc

Overview of BLS Wage Data by Area and Occupation : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Gender pay gap search results - GOV.UK

www.bbc.com: Most firms pay men more than women

@Frank Gulotta 

Have fun with a sampler of sources thus far posting debunking the "ITS JUST CHOICES" myth. I've got a literal comparison chart for the discrepancy for hourly wages paid by firms in the UK, and one that shows bosses will actively screw over women given the opportunity in salaried positions. 

Also, feminists being a bunch of radical Marxists falls under shit reactionaries say that would be great if they were true.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Frank Gulotta said:


> It's not impartial... as opposed to feminist research I suppose, which for some magical reason is unbiased? lol I've never seen anyone more biased than feminists.



Do you understand that the source you quoted didn't represent the original paper (which is a Working paper, so it's currently incomplete) by Bolotnyy and Emmanuel honestly? 

Now, maybe you think that economists working at Harvard have some secret agenda to promote feminism. If you do think that though...then you're expecting other people to believe that a libertarian think tank, quoting a _fabricated_ paper incorrectly, will deliver trustworthy insights.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Mar 11, 2019)

Frank Gulotta said:


> It's not impartial... as opposed to feminist research I suppose, which for some magical reason is unbiased? lol I've never seen anyone more biased than feminists.


Ah yes, that notorious feminist research organization- the American Psychological Association. 

Pfft. Lol.

This thread is a trip.


----------



## Frank Gulotta (Mar 11, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Do you understand that the source you quoted didn't represent the original paper (which is a Working paper, so it's currently incomplete) by Bolotnyy and Emmanuel honestly?
> 
> Now, maybe you think that economists working at Harvard have some secret agenda to promote feminism. If you do think that though...then you're expecting other people to believe that a libertarian think tank, quoting a _fabricated_ paper incorrectly, will deliver trustworthy insights.


No they didn't. Holy shit, everything that doesn't fit the narrow(minded) framework of fuminism is immediately discarded as fabricated. Coming from LIBERTARIANS of all people. Fuminism is a cult at this point.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> This thread is a trip.


More like Passchendaele than a trip;


----------



## Infrarednexus (Mar 11, 2019)

I love it when Misha posts Sabaton songs. Guy has good tastes


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> Ah yes, that notorious feminist research organization- the American Psychological Association.
> 
> Pfft. Lol.
> 
> This thread is a trip.



Personally I only consume research published on the peer reviewed _Journal of Youtube_. ;3


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Because for the fiftieth fucking time, I already posted a link demonstrating discrepancies in hourly pay rates between men and women. When salaries are consistently lower for women, and bosses effectively admit to biased practices as an above study demonstrated, we have gone beyond individual choice. This is a cultural bias against women in our society that has been proven time and time again. People where saying women had equality only a few years after the equal pay act, when illegal practices were hanging out in the open for all the world to see, and have been saying at ever point up to this day. Well we still aren't there.
> 
> The world isn't perfect, and in fact it is quite shit despite having improved immensely. Laws that are supposed to ensure equality and civil rights are regularly ignored, and people don't care as long as it's written on a piece of paper, and then scream "false acuser" if someone actually tries to invoke those laws.
> 
> Y'all honest to god just want the status quo to continue because change is scary, and change IS scary. But a stagnant world were we never started initiatives to end human trafficking because "slavery was already illegal, so what can you do" is scarier. At least if you aren't terrified of whatever feminazi tumbler communist antifa boogieman the right wing pundits are prattling on about to buff their viewership these days.


Yes, there are discrepancies, I am not denying that fact. What I AM denying is the false narrative that the systems in place are against women somehow. 

Your own source, by the way:
amp.businessinsider.com: 6 charts that show the glaring gap between men and women's salaries




Take this graph, for instance. Asian women are beating you in your own systems, and hard too for that matter. I don't see you say you want them to be paid LESS to make up for the gap. They earn on average a lot closer, even at times more than men in general. Following simple feminist logic, Asian women would be sitting next to all the other races when it comes to the gender "pay" gap. 

Back to the article itself:



> *Over half a century after the US passed the Equal Pay Act, American women still face a substantial gender wage gap across the spectrum.
> 
> 
> Today, on average, a woman working full time earns 80.7 cents for every dollar a man working full time earns. Additionally, women's median annual earnings are $9,909 less than men's, according to data from the US Census Bureau.
> ...



Key words there: *"Annual earnings are $9,909 less than men's*". Now, why do you think that is?
www.bls.gov: Time spent working by full- and part-time status, gender, and location in 2014 : The Economics Daily: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Here's a simple rebuttal to it: Hours worked. Men on average work more hours than women, nearly one hour longer per day. Hours worked per day will directly affect the outcome: Your earnings. 

When it comes to salary those are individually and mutually agreed upon, and varies from individual to individual. It's not the company's job to make sure you are paid the same as your coworkers if you yourself have made a deal with the company to be paid less. The only exception to this is if the company have a "equal pay for equal work" implementation, where everyone gets paid the same per hour regardless of individual contracts. Even then, men and women's outcomes are different because of life choices.



> *Women with children often earn less after returning to the workforce, while the opposite is true for working fathers.
> 
> 
> "Data suggest that women suffer a 'mommy penalty' after they have children," the Senate report says.
> ...



I'm not even going to bother to debunk this as it debunked itself due to one factor: *Children*. Have you tried being a full-time mother, being divorced and have kids to take care of? It's not fucking easy, and you often end up having to work less so you can take care of your children more.


----------



## Yakamaru (Mar 11, 2019)

> *The gender pay gap exists for workers across a lifetime.
> 
> 
> A  recent Business Insider analysis of Census data from the Minnesota Population Center's IPUMS program found that the median full-time, year-round male worker earns more than his female counterpart at every year of age.
> ...


Your own sources enjoy debunking themselves without even realizing it.

"Many women that age didn't work when they were younger"(in this case, referring to women aged 75 and above). <-- Key words right there, and debunked itself. Not only do women work less than men in general, they also start later than men. So, debunked.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your sources because they are of the same caliber as this one.



quoting_mungo said:


> 1. There's a huge difference between not dating men who call themselves feminist as a selling point (which is what Iselin's opinion piece talks about - she's essentially sick of having to figure out which ones are sincere, so she'd rather not bother with the lot) and not dating men who are feminist. Iselin even acknowledges that the men she's sick of aren't the whole of male feminism.
> 
> 2. The way you introduce the links misrepresents the actual findings being presented (though to be fair, so does the headline of the Psychology Today article). I don't know Dr. Ley's history or motivations, so I can't say whether some bias on his part plays into his presentation of the findings of Gul and Kupfer. It is worth noting, though, that the tone of the article seems to change in the closing two paragraphs. Notably, Gul and Kupfer's findings, as presented, suggested "benevolent sexism," defined as a sort of women-first, glorification-of-femininity bias, makes men more attractive to women, both feminist and not. This is an important distinction, and honestly sounds like the gender equivalent of why people whom it would benefit are happy to vote for right-wing candidates.


Those articles are only the tip of the iceberg, mungo. I have dozens upon dozens of articles similar to these, all of them from feminists, sometimes radical ones.

1. Iselin is but one of the many feminists who just won't date socially inept narcissistic self-entitled assholes. I just linked her article because I like it. No one likes dishonesty, especially not when someone's intentions is just wanting to get laid.

2. Did I? I said "sexist" men. You know, in quote marks. You're the one implying I am saying something I am not. I find it rather hilarious that "men just being men" is attractive to feminists too. As for Right-wing candidates, they often don't glorify, victimify, pander/cater to let alone treat either gender differently. It's why they are often preferable to a lot of people in general.



Oh, and on a completely unrelated note, but :
www.dailysignal.com: How 3 People Showed the Absurdity of Some Academic Research Journals
hotair.com: Feminist journal accepts portion of Mein Kampf for publication
www.rt.com: Academics 'rewrite' Mein Kampf using radical feminist language, paper accepted
www.foxnews.com: Academic journal accepts ‘Feminist Mein Kampf’
You know you have a problem with feminism when you can just change Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" around a little and its wording and you have feminists accepting it as a "publication". Laughable, to say the least.

Perhaps read more than just Twilight, Harry Potter and 50 Shades of Grey? This is one of the plethora of reasons feminism and feminists in general are a joke.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have more important shit to do than argue with strangers over the internet.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Mar 11, 2019)

Frank Gulotta said:


> No they didn't. Holy shit, everything that doesn't fit the narrow(minded) framework of fuminism is immediately discarded as fabricated. Coming from LIBERTARIANS of all people. Fuminism is a cult at this point.


I keep reading that as FUNinism and that just makes me like it more, honestly. Sounds festive.



Fallowfox said:


> Personally I only consume research published on the peer reviewed _Journal of Youtube_. ;3


They're always so unbiased, rational, and well sourced. 







Also @Unicon post my damn gif!


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Still stuck at work for some time, but to reinforce my earlier link (which referenced additional studies), have some of those additional studies.

Funny how people are avoiding discussing this sort of research with a ten foot pole. Almost like it proves... inconvenient, to the narrative being peddled of feminism being about woman supremacy over the poor white male.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Your own sources enjoy debunking themselves without even realizing it.
> 
> "Many women that age didn't work when they were younger"(in this case, referring to women aged 75 and above). <-- Key words right there, and debunked itself. Not only do women work less than men in general, they also start later than men. So, debunked.
> 
> ...


Cherry picking lines out of context and refusing to read my sources, especially the one which shows a clear difference in hourly pay and one that outright proved a bias for employers against women in salary raises is about as unscientific and irrational a viewpoint you can get.

Oh, and not all peer reviewed journals are created equal. Especially in the age of pay-to-publish and open source journals. Journals have to be assesed based on their reputation within the scientific community. That harvard article STILL hasn't been published by a peer reviewed journal by the way, but it indicates a discrepancy between an environment controlled for bias and one not controlled in wage gap. Furthermore, the explanation given by it indicates women still suffer from the sociatal expectation of being the homemaker and near sole caregiver of children; which is a sexist attitude rooted in the picket-fence ideal.

And again, the paper linked showed that emoyers have a bias in how they give raises to salaried employees. Unquestionably.

Lastly, many women in the workplace still fear reprisals for seeking a raise, which blunts their ability to negotiate. They know the biases against them, and thus have less leverage to work with. Furthermore, women being assertivevin the same way as men are socially branded as bitchy and bossy in white collar subculture, so there is a social dissinsentive against hard negotiation of wages.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I was under the impression that politicians are put into positions by the people.
> 
> And in theory the population of the United States is 50/50 male to female


Had just enough time to set aside to drop a couple more links, but it’s not just hiring managers who have shown hesitance just because the name before them is that of a woman. On mobile at work so my source list can’t be comprehensively summarized at the moment, but some good examples include an earlier survey wherein some 31% of respondents said a woman would be worse at being president solely from being a woman.

I’m fairly sure “Woman must perform noticeably better than their male peers to be put on equal footing by default for ~1/3 the population” is a pretty good indicator of trouble in paradise.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> Ah yes, that notorious feminist research organization- the American Psychological Association.
> 
> Pfft. Lol.
> 
> This thread is a trip.


It's a conspiracy. XD


Yakamaru said:


> Take this graph, for instance. Asian women are beating you in your own systems, and hard too for that matter. I don't see you say you want them to be paid LESS to make up for the gap. They earn on average a lot closer, even at times more than men in general. Following simple feminist logic, Asian women would be sitting next to all the other races when it comes to the gender "pay" gap.


You're missing the fact that Asian women also are relatively small minority group in the States, even compared to blacks and Hispanics, as you would know if you lived in the States or cared to learn aboutus. In any statistical index, Asian can and will outperform other groups partly because they are less of them and, simply put, less to "underperform". This is Statistics 101 that you learn as a university freshman. 

Also, I would ask what professional fields Asian women are going into. If it is the medical professional, in many cities women already dominate that field and Asian women are well represented in it, with other minority groups catching up. Understanding the context of these statistics is important. 


Yakamaru said:


> Key words there: *"Annual earnings are $9,909 less than men's*". Now, why do you think that is?
> www.bls.gov: Time spent working by full- and part-time status, gender, and location in 2014 : The Economics Daily: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
> Here's a simple rebuttal to it: Hours worked. Men on average work more hours than women, nearly one hour longer per day. Hours worked per day will directly affect the outcome: Your earnings.
> 
> When it comes to salary those are individually and mutually agreed upon, and varies from individual to individual. It's not the company's job to make sure you are paid the same as your coworkers if you yourself have made a deal with the company to be paid less. The only exception to this is if the company have a "equal pay for equal work" implementation, where everyone gets paid the same per hour regardless of individual contracts. Even then, men and women's outcomes are different because of life choices.





Yakamaru said:


> I'm not even going to bother to debunk this as it debunked itself due to one factor: *Children*. Have you tried being a full-time mother, being divorced and have kids to take care of? It's not fucking easy, and you often end up having to work less so you can take care of your children more.


Bruh, you're late to party.

archive.is: Myth Busting the Pay Gap


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Spoiler: The Apparent Feminist Bogeywoman


----------



## KimberVaile (Mar 11, 2019)

Attaman said:


> Still stuck at work for some time, but to reinforce my earlier link (which referenced additional studies), have some of those additional studies.
> 
> Funny how people are avoiding discussing this sort of research with a ten foot pole. Almost like it proves... inconvenient, to the narrative being peddled of feminism being about woman supremacy over the poor white male.



For the record I did find the article you previously linked insightful, it'd make a strong case for sexism being in fields like engineering. So I'd agree, there probably is sexism in that field, as it tended to be a heavily male dominated field and there seemed to be relevant statistics backing that up, which is unfortunate.  Though I imagine the reverse can be true for other job fields. As to whether it indicates a broad trend of systemic misogyny, I'd disagree, but in some fields I would be inclined to agree with you. Though when narrowed down to certain areas or companies, I'd find you'd have a point.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Mar 11, 2019)

Unicon said:


> Spoiler: The Apparent Feminist Bogeywoman


I gave you one job. ONE JOB.
Ruined it.


 

Edit: I need feminism cause I can't even trust a man to post gifs for me correctly.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Perhaps read more than just Twilight, Harry Potter and 50 Shades of Grey? This is one of the plethora of reasons feminism and feminists in general are a joke.


I know you said you were done, but you really think all feminists read these books or they are paeans to feminism?

Like, I need to know your reasoning here. I'm just amused that you singled these books out.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> And I find that these studies have the potential to both increase our understanding of human development both before and after birth, and to improve the quality of mental health care through deeper understanding of the factors that may effect the individuals' issues. More effective health care is definitely a significant value added both to human quality of life and the economy.


Healthcare was not among the fields of study I was referring to


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Healthcare was not among the fields of study I was referring to



Which fields of research do you think add no value to the economy? 

Are you open to the possibility that we could come up with questions that, while having no obvious immediate value in dollar-terms, enrich our experience of life and are therefore still worthwhile?

Are there things in life you value _more_ than money?


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

Unicon said:


> That is diametrically opposed to what I stated, but if you had a change of heart about what you said, just admit it instead of acting like you agreed with me from the start.


Ah I see my bad dude. I must have misread/interpreted your statement. It was a little hard to clearly understand for me. This one below specifically:



Unicon said:


> There is no disincentive to mandating that women doing the same type and amount of work as their male colleagues should receive pay commensurate to them. It is leveling the playing for women and prospective employees will have to be employed on their merit.






Unicon said:


> Except there is a marked difference between skilled foreign contractors able to negotiate for their salaries based on their income expectations domestically and prospective employees for a *bakery *receiving lower pay for imply being a woman.
> 
> There is no parallel here.



And dude I'm aware of the differences between micro/macro, international and domestic markets. I was using this more as an example relating to theory, than practicality. I'm talking about the theory of production cost, labor, and incentive. So yes it is related. There is no incentive economically to discriminate against women. Otherwise 



Unicon said:


> I was expecting you to define in your own words so I knew you knew what you were talking about, but fine. Plus, yes, fourth-wave feminism has been a thing, which I would think a man who has grievances with third-wave feminism would know, especially since they may see fourth-wave feminism as a "reformed" version of feminism or a "worse" version.
> 
> Not that I'm implying feminism needs to be reformed or any phase is worse in any major way.
> 
> However, quoting your own source, which I feel comfortable saying you didn't read before now:



Yeah no dude sometimes we have responsibilities to care of in real life. And I can't always quickly define a complex issue within a matter of minutes at the snap of my fingers. I obviously didn't have time to read it. That's why I just sent something from Wikipedia, to help give you a better idea, while I can go attend to things irl. It's really unfair to just expect people can answer quickly and whenever you want. We all have things to do irl. I thought I made that clear but I'll apologize if I didn't.

I'm much more interested in discussion than just trying trying to prove someone wrong. You didn't like it when I misinterpreted something you said. Again I'll apologize for that. I don't like it when my arguments misrepresented or straw-manned.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

I think feminism is something that's important, and it's something that we need today.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> @quoting_mungo I'm pro sex worker, I forgot to include it in the list. That is one of my biggest complaints about most modern liberal feminists.
> 
> And anti-sex worker legistlation like FOSTA/SESTA worsens human sex trafficking.
> 
> ...


Cheers! I appreciate the clarification. There's way too much anti-sex-worker rhetoric in most trafficking discussion, so I think it's an important distinction to make, particularly since many sex workers belong to very vulnerable demographics, so anti-trafficking measures that negatively impact them are a serious problem.

Discussion of rape culture that explicitly excludes male victims and female offenders has rubbed me the wrong way for a long time, so I have Opinions on that topic. 



Yakamaru said:


> 1. Iselin is but one of the many feminists who just won't date socially inept narcissistic self-entitled assholes. I just linked her article because I like it. No one likes dishonesty, especially not when someone's intentions is just wanting to get laid.


So... basically you're agreeing with me that the problem isn't that these men are feminists, but that they _aren't_, but claim to be in order to score points and hopefully get laid? It's sad that Iselin and her peers have been burned due to disingenuous dating practices of a group of men, but arguing as though it reflects on sincerely feminist men is misguided at best.



Yakamaru said:


> 2. Did I? I said "sexist" men. You know, in quote marks. You're the one implying I am saying something I am not. I find it rather hilarious that "men just being men" is attractive to feminists too. As for Right-wing candidates, they often don't glorify, victimify, pander/cater to let alone treat either gender differently. It's why they are often preferable to a lot of people in general.


"Go in the opposite direction" from "male feminists," regardless of what descriptor is used about feminist men (how those descriptors fail to account for the distinction between sincerely feminist men and men paying lip service to score is a separate issue), suggests that "sexist" is referring to what is commonly understood as sexist, rather than excessive respect for women owing to the fact that they are women. If that's not what you meant to suggest, I apologize, but you do have a tendency to juxtapose statements in this way, and you may want to keep that in mind when writing your posts if you want to avoid giving the impression that you're attempting to mislead readers.

I also don't think many if any (Psychology Today is loading like ass for me, probably doesn't like my tablet, so I can't load the list to double-check) of the behaviors described as benevolent sexism really qualify as "men just being men." It's a very specific set of behaviors and values taught in particular cultures. It's not some kind of natural instinct intrisic to malehood.



Yakamaru said:


> Oh, and on a completely unrelated note, but :
> www.dailysignal.com: How 3 People Showed the Absurdity of Some Academic Research Journals
> hotair.com: Feminist journal accepts portion of Mein Kampf for publication
> www.rt.com: Academics 'rewrite' Mein Kampf using radical feminist language, paper accepted
> ...


You do realize that I am highly critical of feminism as a movement, right? A number of the stated goals are laudable, but in practice I've been exposed to way too much bullshit to have much faith in the movement as a whole. It galls me to no end that there are people in this thread, yourself included, expressing attitudes that put me on the side of defending it.

Also worth noting is that Hitler was a very gifted orator, so I can well believe that while his message was despiccable, the delivery was persuasive and well-crafted overall. Now, I have neither read the hoax papers nor the chapter of Mein Kampf that one of them parodied, so I can't make a more specific comment about that, but it is worth noting that the perceived problem that the authors intended to expose with their hoax was flaws with the peer review process in a number of subfields of social sciences, and as criticism against what they perceive as flaws in those fields as academia. One of the authors is quoted as saying the fields are important, and just need more stringent standards; given your feelings on gender studies as a field I'm surprised you'd be in support of an effort to improve it.

Basically, you're not discrediting feminism by citing this, but the academic/publishing process involved in getting articles published in scholarly journals. For reference, one of the first things we were told in our introduction to academic writing in the Library Science program was that the peer review system isn't perfect and has been criticized within academia, but the general consensus is that we don't really have a better option.



Yakamaru said:


> Perhaps read more than just Twilight, Harry Potter and 50 Shades of Grey? This is one of the plethora of reasons feminism and feminists in general are a joke.


If you're referring to me, just know that I have a degree in English Literature, and that my Bachelor's essay that I wrote for that degree is posted to my FA. If it _was_ directed at me, it was a really badly chosen dig. Doubly so since I don't particularly care for Harry Potter, and haven't seen anything said about the other two that makes me feel very inclined to read them.



Unicon said:


> I know you said you were done, but you really all feminists read these books or they are paeans to feminism?
> 
> Like, I need to know your reasoning here. I'm just amused that you singled these books out.


No kidding. Particularly since neither _Twilight_ nor _50 Shades_ are exactly... empowering, at least in their early installments. I'm a bit shaky as to whether either "redeems" itself towards the end of their respective series. I was thinking he might be saying _I_ was engrossed in questionable literature to the exclusion of everything else, but IDFK.



Anon Raccoon said:


> Healthcare was not among the fields of study I was referring to


Nor was I directly referring to Biology or Medicine. However, findings in one field can benefit other fields; this is hardly unusual in any sciences (Physics would be pretty crippled without Mathematics), and particularly so in cross-disciplinary sciences, which I suspect Gender Studies may technically fall under. In this case, I am hypothesizing that increased understanding of the influences of gender roles within society and what these roles look like may improve treatment within the mental health (professional) field, particularly but not exclusively for queer patients.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

I think feminism is important because in today's society we have many men who feel like they're being attacked because suddenly everyone is tired of their sexist bullshit. If you're the type of guy to feel offended when they remake a movie with an all female cast, then that says a lot about you than it does the actual movie.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

not to mention the horribly sexist groups like the incels and MGTOW men who think women owe them sex just because they were nice to them. I mean it's one thing to be an egotistical asshole, its another to completely disrespect someone else's rights just because you feel that entitled.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> MGTOW men who think women owe them sex just because they were nice to them.


How miserably misinformed you are.

MTGOW are men who just doesn't want be "IN A RELATIONSHIP" with a woman because they're too trouble.

Seriously woman..


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> How miserably misinformed you are.
> 
> MTGOW are men who just doesn't want be "IN A RELATIONSHIP" with a woman because they're too trouble.
> 
> Seriously woman..


The MTGOW crowd as is thinks of themselves as strikers picketing women being shit, and say the most _lovely_ sexist shit about women. 

Their movement hinges on the supposition that they are somehow punishing women by boycotting relationships.

They are essentially incels who would rather pretend women actually want them, rather than admit they are undesirable shitgibbons.


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The MTGOW crowd as is thinks of themselves as strikers picketing women being shit, and say the most _lovely_ sexist shit about women.
> 
> Their movement hinges on the supposition that they are somehow punishing women by boycotting relationships.
> 
> They are essentially incels who would rather pretend women actually want them, rather than admit they are undesirable shitgibbons.



Interestingly the 'involuntarily celibate' label was started by a lesbian University student, who wanted to encourage other people to share their insecurities about not having enough sex- and realise that actually the idea that everybody else is having sex all the time just isn't true.
But over time that ironic space, which was meant to make people feel better, transformed into one where people tried to make each other feel even worse.
It's kind of like how the flat earth society was formally a jovial society of jokers, before they realised that from amidst their ranks they'd slowly become outnumbered by people who were dead serious.


I digress though, I'm sure most Incels and MGTOWs would actually have no problem finding women who loved them if only they were to shed the mental barriers they've constructed around themselves. 

...It's particularly ironic actually that Incels and MGTOWs frequently express belief in conspiracy theories that they're part of a dying breed of humans that's being insidiously wiped out by maniacal international government forces...like, you guys are the ones deliberately avoiding making babies- nobody is _asking _you to do that.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> How miserably misinformed you are.
> 
> *MTGOW are men who just doesn't want be "IN A RELATIONSHIP" with a woman because they're too trouble.*
> 
> Seriously woman..


I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think she meant that they became MGTOWs because of that attitude. Besides, going by the definition I highlighted in bold, MGTOWs still are fairly sexist.

I'm for defining terms correctly, but are you defending MGTOWs?

Plus, you might want to consider the optics of using "woman" in that last sentence.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Since we are discussing feminism, I have to share this artist btw;


----------



## Filter (Mar 11, 2019)

How do I feel about feminism? I think most people agree on the basics, but can't resist mischaracterizing each other and getting triggered in the process.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Mar 11, 2019)

Filter said:


> How do I feel about feminism? I think most people agree on the basics, but can't resist mischaracterizing each other and getting triggered in the process.


I say most people do agree on the basics like you said, but also there are few who clearly don't. And by that I mean they stated explicitly they believe in feminism or even that women face any sort of obstacles, primarily in first world. That is probably where problem lies and I can't fault people for being concerned it.


----------



## Gradiusgadwin (Mar 11, 2019)

> "How do you feel about feminism?"



Sorry, I can't answer because I will get banned again for "hate speech".


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> How miserably misinformed you are.
> 
> MTGOW are men who just doesn't want be "IN A RELATIONSHIP" with a woman because they're too trouble.
> 
> Seriously woman..



Hey, you know, I do have a name. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me on a topic, but adding "Woman" to it is just ridiculous. Also, woman or not, it wouldn't change the fact that I am right about MGTOW men holding horribly sexist opinions about women.

You know how many creepy guys I've met on the internet just playing video games who have called me a bitch or a whore for not accepting their advances? Never mind the fact that I'm underage, but also the countless men who've called me a man online because they couldn't possibly wrap their mind around the fact that I was gay? The countless friends I've had who were stalked relentlessly by men online because they thought "if they just tried hard enough they could get her to see things differently"?

I mean I could also mention the creepy, rapey assholes who said that I just "hadn't met the right guy yet, and they could change me" when I told them I was a lesbian and I didn't like them or any man at all. We need feminism especially today because too many men hold this idea that they can pursue any woman they want and if they just try hard enough they can win her over, when that's not how the world works.

Entitlement is a huge problem that these MGTOWs and Incels have, they think they deserve a prize for being nice, that because they even bothered to act like a decent human being any woman who talks to them should be grateful they even glanced her way.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

I also wanna point out that in todays society, too many people get upset over stupid silly things like a woman in a video game, or a woman in a movie, but I've already talked about that in great length.

Point is, we need feminism because entitled men need a reality check, and angry fanboys need to realize that video games and movies weren't just invented to please them.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> We need feminism especially today because too many men hold this idea that they can pursue any woman they want and if they just try hard enough they can win her over, when that's not how the world works.


Blame Hollywood. Like, you just described the plot of most romcoms (minus the "that's not how the world works" part, which doesn't often apply in movie-land), and the romantic subplots of a slew of non-chickflicks on top of that. :V 

I don't personally believe feminism must be the answer here. Candid discussions with youths _of either gender_ about respectful behavior towards other human beings in and out of relationships are crucial, and given the vitriol I've seen too many feminists (including feminist organizations and major feminist influencers) spew, I'm less than convinced that I can trust feminism to provide that.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> Blame Hollywood. Like, you just described the plot of most romcoms (minus the "that's not how the world works" part, which doesn't often apply in movie-land), and the romantic subplots of a slew of non-chickflicks on top of that. :V
> 
> I don't personally believe feminism must be the answer here. Candid discussions with youths _of either gender_ about respectful behavior towards other human beings in and out of relationships are crucial, and given the vitriol I've seen too many feminists (including feminist organizations and major feminist influencers) spew, I'm less than convinced that I can trust feminism to provide that.



I'm not gonna blame hollywood because individual men can't control their own actions. Sure, I can say that they probably did those things BECAUSE that specific trope is ingrained in their minds, but I'm not gonna let that excuse their behaviour. 

And while I agree that we should teach both genders to respect other people, I am more worried about the ever growing dangerous communities of men wishing they could rape and murder women on the internet. Don't brush off my worry for this as nothing either, because the fact is incels _have _killed people in the past, women _have _been date raped by those PUA guys,  I don't think it's  just me being a worry wort when I say that I am afraid of the men of today because I know incels and MGTOWs and PUAs exist. 

There are far too many horrifying headlines about trans women being murdered, and about girls getting drugged at parties, and about boys being beaten at frat parties for me to brush off feminism as a whole, which is why I believe in it.


----------



## Deathless (Mar 11, 2019)

Just gonna leave this here, it basically sums up my viewpoints


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I also wanna point out that in todays society, too many people get upset over stupid silly things like a woman in a video game, or a woman in a movie, but I've already talked about that in great length.
> 
> Point is, we need feminism because entitled men need a reality check, and angry fanboys need to realize that video games and movies weren't just invented to please them.





Liseran Thistle said:


> I'm not gonna blame hollywood because individual men can't control their own actions. Sure, I can say that they probably did those things BECAUSE that specific trope is ingrained in their minds, but I'm not gonna let that excuse their behaviour.
> 
> And while I agree that we should teach both genders to respect other people, I am more worried about the ever growing dangerous communities of men wishing they could rape and murder women on the internet. Don't brush off my worry for this as nothing either, because the fact is incels _have _killed people in the past, women _have _been date raped by those PUA guys,  I don't think it's  just me being a worry wort when I say that I am afraid of the men of today because I know incels and MGTOWs and PUAs exist.
> 
> There are far too many horrifying headlines about trans women being murdered, and about girls getting drugged at parties, and about boys being beaten at frat parties for me to brush off feminism as a whole, which is why I believe in it.


Finally, someone  in this thread who makes a solid point without going into prolonged tangents . Bless


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

MidnightDragon said:


> Just gonna leave this here, it basically sums up my viewpoints



The man in the video seems to be focusing too much on his sarcastic remarks than actual in depth rebuttals to feminist theory.


----------



## Captain TrashPanda (Mar 11, 2019)

MidnightDragon said:


> Just gonna leave this here, it basically sums up my viewpoints


*coughs* accurate 
*gets ready for an onslaught*


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

I've already posted my sources by this point.


MidnightDragon said:


> Just gonna leave this here, it basically sums up my viewpoints



*sarcasm* Yes, because the same person behind this video has valuable commentary to add;


----------



## insertgenericnamehere1 (Mar 11, 2019)

Gradiusgadwin said:


> Sorry, I can't answer because I will get banned again for "hate speech".


Ελα ρε. Είστε Έλληνας; και μισείς φεμινίστριες μαλακίες χαχαχα. μου αρέσει πολύ =p PM me dude


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I've already posted my sources by this point.
> 
> 
> *sarcasm* Yes, because the same person behind this video has valuable commentary to add;



See, this guy just likes to go after people who are different than him. I mean here he is mocking furries for what? Existing? Having a hobby? 

Also anything with Onionboy in it can't be good, I feel I don't have to explain the millions of reasons why Onision is a shit person.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Cherry picking lines out of context and refusing to read my sources, especially the one which shows a clear difference in hourly pay and one that outright proved a bias for employers against women in salary raises is about as unscientific and irrational a viewpoint you can get.
> 
> Oh, and not all peer reviewed journals are created equal. Especially in the age of pay-to-publish and open source journals. Journals have to be assesed based on their reputation within the scientific community. That harvard article STILL hasn't been published by a peer reviewed journal by the way, but it indicates a discrepancy between an environment controlled for bias and one not controlled in wage gap. Furthermore, the explanation given by it indicates women still suffer from the sociatal expectation of being the homemaker and near sole caregiver of children; which is a sexist attitude rooted in the picket-fence ideal.
> 
> ...



You seem to be fond of linking articles written by slightly smarter people to make your arguments for you and expecting us to read them seriously.

I can't imagine the hundreds of hours of time I would have wasted of I read the entirety of every slice of propaganda you shove in our faces.

I find it a much better mental excercise to rationalize my own positions. (which is the whole point of these futile conversations)


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> Nor was I directly referring to Biology or Medicine. However, findings in one field can benefit other fields; this is hardly unusual in any sciences (Physics would be pretty crippled without Mathematics), and particularly so in cross-disciplinary sciences, which I suspect Gender Studies may technically fall under. In this case, I am hypothesizing that increased understanding of the influences of gender roles within society and what these roles look like may improve treatment within the mental health (professional) field, particularly but not exclusively for queer patients.



I find that hypothesos strange. I just don't see degrees in studying 'injustices' in any way directly adding value to the economy. 
I wish for a good education system that directly trains people for the jobs that actually exist.
I think it is a disservice to offer degrees that cost money but provide little value.
It's sad but thankfully most people understand this.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> You seem to be fond of linking articles written by slightly smarter people to make your arguments for you and expecting us to read them seriously.
> 
> I can't imagine the hundreds of hours of time I would have wasted of I read the entirety of every slice of propaganda you shove in our faces.
> 
> I find it a much better mental excercise to rationalize my own positions. (which is the whole point of these futile conversations)



So let me get this straight: Someone comes at you with actual evidence against your very ignorant, and wrong assessment of the pay gap and your response is to not even bother to read it? Are you serious? 

You're not having a debate, this is just someone who knows how to find sources throwing them at a very, very thick wall. Look, when someone calls you out on being wrong and then has the receipts to back up that statement, you should probably consider changing your mind instead of going "Oh wow sources that prove me wrong, man what a waste of time to read those that would've been, I'm just going to continue to be blatantly ignorant of the issue because I'm so much smarter than you on this subject, even though I don't have any sources of my own to back up my ideas." 

Either at this point you're just trolling, or you actually have no idea how to hold a civil debate on any subject.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> You seem to be fond of linking articles written by slightly smarter people to make your arguments for you and expecting us to read them seriously.
> 
> I can't imagine the hundreds of hours of time I would have wasted of I read the entirety of every slice of propaganda you shove in our faces.
> 
> I find it a much better mental excercise to rationalize my own positions. (which is the whole point of these futile conversations)


I didn't know reputable journals and hard data where propoganda?

Thanks for admitting you didn't read any of it.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> Which fields of research do you think add no value to the economy?
> 
> Are you open to the possibility that we could come up with questions that, while having no obvious immediate value in dollar-terms, enrich our experience of life and are therefore still worthwhile?
> 
> Are there things in life you value _more_ than money?



Yes I value people more than money. I think it is very sad to see so many people going deep into debt to get degrees that have minimal chance of finding relevant employment.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> You seem to be fond of linking articles written by slightly smarter people to make your arguments for you and expecting us to read them seriously.
> 
> I can't imagine the hundreds of hours of time I would have wasted of I read the entirety of every slice of propaganda you shove in our faces.
> 
> I find it a much better mental excercise to rationalize my own positions. (which is the whole point of these futile conversations)


Just so you know, "I outright refuse to read scholastic (E: scholarly) material on various subject matters before talking on them, will insult said articles when they come up as SJW crock / propaganda (even when coming from sources such as... Yale Graduates / Doctorates from the class of _1962_, the United States' Department of Labor / Bureau of Labor, the British Office of National Statistics), and demand people spend _their_ time condensing this information to correct me" is not a good look.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

So anyway, moral of the story kids, read the fucking sources your opponent throws at you because if you don't you've basically surrendered any credibility you had in the argument at all.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> So let me get this straight: Someone comes at you with actual evidence against your very ignorant, and wrong assessment of the pay gap and your response is to not even bother to read it? Are you serious?
> 
> You're not having a debate, this is just someone who knows how to find sources throwing them at a very, very thick wall. Look, when someone calls you out on being wrong and then has the receipts to back up that statement, you should probably consider changing your mind instead of going "Oh wow sources that prove me wrong, man what a waste of time to read those that would've been, I'm just going to continue to be blatantly ignorant of the issue because I'm so much smarter than you on this subject, even though I don't have any sources of my own to back up my ideas."
> 
> Either at this point you're just trolling, or you actually have no idea how to hold a civil debate on any subject.



It is very easy to misinterpret data or post articles from uninformed writers when there is obviously a preconceived narrative to fit that America is secretly a deeply evil and sexist place. 
Which is exactly what the gender pay gap conspiracy is all about.
I cant blame people for following them blindly. But I can point it out.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Attaman said:


> Just so you know, "I outright refuse to read scholastic (E: scholarly) material on various subject matters before talking on them, will insult said articles when they come up as SJW crock / propaganda (even when coming from sources such as... Yale Graduates / Doctorates from the class of _1962_, the United States' Department of Labor / Bureau of Labor, the British Office of National Statistics), and demand people spend _their_ time condensing this information to correct me" is not a good look.


 I did read the bureau labor statistics because that is not an opinion article.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> It is very easy to misinterpret data or post articles from uninformed writers when there is obviously a preconceived narrative to fit that America is secretly a deeply evil and sexist place.
> Which is exactly what the gender pay gap conspiracy is all about.
> I cant blame people for following them blindly. But I can point it out.



Okay, but those sources weren't from people who were uninformed on the subject at all???? I mean, unless you wanna tell me that fucking harvard is in on this whole "Pay Gap conspiracy" then I should tell you that sounds more like a conspiracy than anything else.

But all that aside, it's already been a proven fact that many women in the job force face different types of discrimination, and as a result get paid less by their bosses. It's also been a proven fact that men in tech companies or silicon valley often look down or disregard the advice of the women who work with them. 

I'd post sources, but...I think we both know how that's gonna end.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> So anyway, moral of the story kids, read the fucking sources your opponent throws at you because if you don't you've basically surrendered any credibility you had in the argument at all.


I mean, being fair, this isn't as bad as the last incident of "I will refuse to read your propaganda and instead keep spewing all over my keyboard. Checkmate libs", which ended with... uh, ended with defending a literal Neo-Nazi and his right to "teach" children (and penalize them for not retaining / regurgitating such "knowledge") antisemitic screed. 



Anon Raccoon said:


> I did read the bureau labor statistics because that is not an opinion article.


And the British Office of National Statistics / scholarly journals with peer review and citations are, because... ?


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I did read the bureau labor statistics because that is not an opinion article.



_There's no such thing as an opinion article, if you read an article and disagree with it, but can't figure out why, that doesn't mean it's an opionated article just means your really heated about the subject matter in the article and should probably do more research (not internal research mind you, like going to an actual fucking library and looking up peer reviewed articles on the subject)  and come up with your own opinion of it.
_
The sad thing is though, everyone in this thread now knows you're the type of person who doesn't like to read sources, so whats the point in actually telling you to do it? I mean its one thing to not read sources, it's quite another thing all together to _*tell *_people you don't do it.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Attaman said:


> I mean, being fair, this isn't as bad as the last incident of "I will refuse to read your propaganda and instead keep spewing all over my keyboard. Checkmate libs", which ended with... uh, ended with defending a literal Neo-Nazi and his right to "teach" children (and penalize them for not retaining / regurgitating such "knowledge") antisemitic screed.
> 
> 
> And the British Office of National Statistics / scholarly journals with peer review and citations are, because... ?



I actually ran into a girl on deviant art who said she wasn't a nazi, but who also used nazi propaganda and hate speech in the politics thread. Not that the politics thread on Deviantart isn't already a horrifying cesspool of bronies and nazis but it was amusing seeing a nazi try to reason her way out of not being a nazi.

"I'm not a nazi, I hate Hitler" is not a good rebuttal, and is in fact something nazis today say because they already know no one likes hitler.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Plus there is the fact that I would probably be banned if I cited anything by great conservative scholars like Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro so theres that.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Plus there is the fact that I would probably be banned if I cited anything by great conservative scholars like Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro so theres that.


Alright, I know I said to be fair earlier, but displaying regret that you can't cite Jordan "Human Hierarchies are evolved, just like those of Lobsters" Peterson in a thread about Feminism as a counter-argument comes pretty close to somehow still stumbling over the "At least it's not as bad bar" that's currently trapped in the gaps between my kitchen's linoleum.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Plus there is the fact that I would probably be banned if I cited anything by great conservative scholars like Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro so theres that.



you wouldn't be banned just laughed at because those aren't good sources, how can you mock someone for actually posting peer reviewed scholoarly articles, but try to pull this shit??

Jordan Peterson?? Seriously???? Are you kidding me with this shit? I'm actually kind of mad, not because of your political views, but because you actually think that if you posted a jordan petterson video as actual evidence people would take you seriously. I also find it hilarious that only a moment ago you were making fun of someone else for posting sources from someone smarter than you, but then complaining about something like this.

Like come on??? Have you never written _any _kind of essay in your entire life? If I asked someone "well where's your evidence" and they posted a fucking link to Jordan Petersons youtube channel, I'd fucking stop talking to them right there. You don't get to bitch about people posting "opinion articles" but then try to argue for stuff like this.

Ugh. I have had enough of the internet. Oh and one more thing, I didn't miss you're weird victim complex in that comment. No mod on the forums is gonna ban you from here because you posted jordan peterson and ben shapiro videos, that hasn't happened before, just because a lot of people disagree with you doesn't mean you are some tragic victim.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I actually ran into a girl on deviant art who said she wasn't a nazi, but who also used nazi propaganda and hate speech in the politics thread. Not that the politics thread on Deviantart isn't already a horrifying cesspool of bronies and nazis but it was amusing seeing a nazi try to reason her way out of not being a nazi.
> 
> "I'm not a nazi, I hate Hitler" is not a good rebuttal, and is in fact something nazis today say because they already know no one likes hitler.


As someone who is sort of a brony, there are Nazi Bronies. It's the kind of cancer you'd imagine. 

I've said my piece here and this is clearly no longer a productive debate, so I'm just going to go buy some Gillett Razors while wearing my Nikes and drinking a Kurig Coffee, and then watch a few Anita Sarkesian videos while playing Gone Home in my Che Guevara shirt. 


Spoiler: Obviously


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> As someone who is sort of a brony, there are Nazi Bronies. It's the kind of cancer you'd imagine.
> 
> I've said my piece here and this is clearly no longer a productive debate, so I'm just going to go buy some Gillett Razors while wearing my Nikes and drinking a Kurig Coffee, and then watch a few Anita Sarkesian videos while playing Gone Home in my Che Guevara shirt.
> 
> ...



I'd join you but at this point I'm too tired. I think I'll just fuck off to kissanime like I did last time and hope anime can take away my headache.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 11, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I'd join you but at this point I'm too tired. I think I'll just fuck off to kissanime like I did last time and hope anime can take away my headache.


Try watching Night In The Galactic Railroad, it's a pretty cool movie but a little bit sad


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

Anyone who's read Jordon Peterson will get it.


----------



## Casey Fluffbat (Mar 11, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Anyone who's read Jordon Peterson will get it.



"In a way, this lobster represents a dichotomy in the human mind", could be a new lecture.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

Haha why does everyone like his lobster stuff so much.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

That's a gynandromorphic lobster btw.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Mar 11, 2019)

*sniff* G-Guys, please stop making fun of my lobster... *sniff*


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 11, 2019)

@SSJ3Mewtwo  so I think this thread has officially run its course and devolved into memes.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 11, 2019)

He could have chosen so many creatures as examples of hierarchy but he chooses lobster. I would have done wolves perhaps. Haha


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 11, 2019)

Gotta love dem dank memes. It's the furry way.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> He could have chosen so many creatures as examples of hierarchy but he chooses lobster. I would have done wolves perhaps. Haha


The guy who wrote the book about alpha wolves later recounted his findings because they only demonstrated those behaviors in captivity, and packs in the wild tend to be led instead by wolves who are the parents of offspring; in a semi-gerontocracy.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The guy who wrote the book about alpha wolves later recounted his findings because they only demonstrated those behaviors in captivity, and packs in the wild tend to be led instead by wolves who are the parents of offspring; in a semi-gerontocracy.



I believe it was like an isolated case, where that one pack alone was the only pack who happened to develop the weird alpha/beta heirarchy.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

plus alpha/beta stuff is only useful for gay wattpad stories, I should know from experience since that's all my wattpad library is.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> plus alpha/beta stuff is only useful for gay wattpad stories, I should know from experience since that's all my wattpad library is.


I mean its also used in Incel theory, and by a large portion of right wingers to describe human behavior and hierarchies. Which is kind of funny when you consider humans pre-civilization where matriarchal.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I mean its also used in Incel theory, and by a large portion of right wingers to describe human behavior and hierarchies. Which is kind of funny when you consider humans pre-civilization where matriarchal.



what makes incels even more hilarious is when they like to spout how manly men were in the olden days, and when you ask them which men in particular they're like 

"Oh you know, the spartans, cowboys, those types of men!"

 At the end of the day, truly, everything turns out to be a lot gayer than they thought.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The guy who wrote the book about alpha wolves later recounted his findings because they only demonstrated those behaviors in captivity, and packs in the wild tend to be led instead by wolves who are the parents of offspring; in a semi-gerontocracy.


No idea who you are talking about


----------



## goldcatmask (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm against it. At least in coutries like the US and the UK. Send feminism to muslim countries where its actually needed. Women and LGBT people get beaten and killed over there and yall' over here worrying about "strong female characters" in movies and video games.

I also want to mention that i am in fact a woman, before anyone thinks this is just another white cis male being salty.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

His names L.David Mech

the author of the alpha wolf book.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

goldcatmask said:


> I'm against it. At least in coutries like the US and the UK. Send feminism to muslim countries where its actually needed. Women and LGBT people get beaten and killed over there and yall' over here worrying about "strong female characters" in movies and video games.
> 
> I also want to mention that i am in fact a woman, before anyone thinks this is just another white cis male being salty.


Women and LGBT people get beaten and killed over here too, though to a lesser extent.

EDIT: And our child marriage laws aren't as progressive as some people would like to believe. Marriage to minors is still a thing in this country somehow.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The guy who wrote the book about alpha wolves later recounted his findings because they only demonstrated those behaviors in captivity, and packs in the wild tend to be led instead by wolves who are the parents of offspring; in a semi-gerontocracy.





Liseran Thistle said:


> His names L.David Mech
> 
> the author of the alpha wolf book.



I dont know anything about that book.
I wasn't trying to start a thing i was just commenting that lobsters was a weird choice for him to discuss how social hierarchy exists with almost all creatures. Like he could use anything.


----------



## goldcatmask (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Women and LGBT people get beaten and killed over here too, though to a lesser extent.
> 
> EDIT: And our child marriage laws aren't as progressive as some people would like to believe. Marriage to minors is still a thing in this country somehow.



Not really. Women have the same rights as men, if not more. Its also basically a hate crime to say anything against the LGBT community in this country, even if no intent to act was behind it at all.

In Muslim countries, women are expected to obey their husband at the risk of being beaten or killed if she doesn't. Gay men as well as other LGBT individuals get executed over there simply for existing.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Women and LGBT people get beaten and killed over here too, though to a lesser extent.
> 
> EDIT: And our child marriage laws aren't as progressive as some people would like to believe. Marriage to minors is still a thing in this country somehow.



Yep, there's a very disproportionate amount of people abusing the age of consent laws and making child brides. I saw that on a news special the other day, this girl had bee trapped in a horrible marriage to this man, and it was all because her mother forced her into it. 

And on the subject of feminism in the U.S, just because crime is rampant in one country but another doesn't mean we still don't have to solve the problems in this country. I get what you're trying to say, but I believe we definitely need feminism in america because things like child brides, and rape and murder still happen here. Maybe not to such a dangerous degree, which even by itself is a statement I can't prove or trust, it still happens.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

goldcatmask said:


> Not really. Women have the same rights as men, if not more. Its also basically a hate crime to say anything against the LGBT community in this country, even if no intent to act was behind it at all.
> 
> In Muslim countries, women are expected to obey their husband at the risk of being beaten or killed if she doesn't. Gay men as well as other LGBT individuals get executed over there simply for existing.



You say that like gay people and women and other minority groups aren't murdered over in this country simply for existing. You do know that there are still people in the U.S who send their kids to conversion therapy right? Or that trans women are murdered at a horrible rate here in the U.S whenever they go on dates, and that those murders are never solved or even actually put to trial because "Trans Panic" is a viable defense in some courts? Or that sex traffickers and pedophiles have created spaces for themselves on the internet, and some have even invaded political offices, passing laws that endanger children as a whole? 

There's a lot of fucked up things that go on in every country, we shouldn't abbandon an entire school of thought just because folks over seas have it tougher. In fact, I would say its because folks over seas have it tougher that we should have feminism here in america. You know, to stop the horrible mysoginy that plagues many peoples lives. I alone can't do anything about the current political sphere of other countries, and it would be kind of unfair to expect other people to try to change another countries culture from where they are. But I can change the world around me now, and the world around me is reflecting a very ugly reality I don't like.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

goldcatmask said:


> Not really. Women have the same rights as men, if not more. Its also basically a hate crime to say anything against the LGBT community in this country, even if no intent to act was behind it at all.
> 
> In Muslim countries, women are expected to obey their husband at the risk of being beaten or killed if she doesn't. Gay men as well as other LGBT individuals get executed over there simply for existing.


The United States has no major hate speech law outside of laws banning death threats and calls to action for violence, and we don't even prosecute that particularly well, or the KKK would have been gutted by now. It takes having illegal weapons cashes like the Aryan Brotherhood to get caught out. 
www.forbes.com: What You Need To Know About Child Marriage In The U.S.
The following videos need a TW for transphobia. 


Spoiler







www.reddit.com: r/Fuckthealtright - "Choke a tranny. Get your fingers around the windpipe." "Get a fucking gun. Get ready to blow someone's fucking head off." Compilation of calls to violence from Gavin McGinness, leader of the Proud Boys.


We also have far right terror attacks on the rise right now.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Not So Fun Fact: Lyniching wasn't recongized as an actual racist hate crime until _last fucking year.

www.nytimes.com: Senate Unanimously Passes Bill Making Lynching a Federal Crime_


_
_


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Not So Fun Fact: Lyniching wasn't recongized as an actual racist hate crime until _last fucking year.
> 
> www.nytimes.com: Senate Unanimously Passes Bill Making Lynching a Federal Crime_


Yes I heard Jessie Smollett was lynched and poured Bleach by maga hat wearing Trump supporters


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Yes I heard Jessie Smollett was lynched and poured Bleach by maga hat wearing Trump supporters


Who gives a shit about Jessie Smollett
FBI Releases 2017 Hate Crime Statistics — FBI


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Who gives a shit about Jessie Smollett
> FBI Releases 2017 Hate Crime Statistics — FBI


Yes nobody gives a shit about him ammirite?

V:


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Yes nobody gives a shit about him ammirite?
> 
> V:


Only right wingers looking to throw up shit comebacks to the continued recorded increase in hates crimes, a statistic that doesn't count mass shootings, the worst of which in 2018 where largely related to far right extremism.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

i don't think joking about somebody getting lynched, especially when that person is POC is good.

I think it's kind of a bad thing to do.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> i don't think joking about somebody getting lynched, especially when that person is POC is good


It isn't, but if I remember correctly, he's one of the guys that got temp banned for spamming Nazi iconography at someone who was Jewish worried about being victim to a hate crime. I forget the exact details of that debacle, and that might be someone else I'm thinking of. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Only right wingers looking to throw up shit comebacks to the continued recorded increase in hates crimes, a statistic that doesn't count mass shootings, the worst of which in 2018 where largely related to far right extremism.


Oh no! I TOTALLY agree with you.

Jessie Smollett story doesnt mean anything to us progressives and Democrats.

Feminism can do nothing wrong... It's so perfect UwU


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

I don't know and I can't find anything online about it.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> I don't know and I can't find anything online about it.


I was talking about Mikazuki on the nazi iconogrophy thing.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Oh no! I TOTALLY agree with you.
> 
> Jessie Smollett story doesnt mean anything to us progressives and Democrats.
> 
> Feminism can do nothing wrong... It's so perfect UwU



You know what, that right there is bait. Like, you are really just pulling stuff out of your ass now picking fights.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Well I'm going  to unwatch this shortly. 




@Scrydan @SSJ3Mewtwo @luffy 
I think it's time to close the thread;


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> You know what, that right there is bait. Like, you are really just pulling stuff out of your ass now picking fights.


But I agree with you!

Woman should HAVE MORE rights than men, and should have more privileges than men.

MEN! They're all evil, they should be scorned into obscurity. Women don't need men.. EVER! :V


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

This is a whole other level of bait. You could call it, masterbaiting?


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> But I agree with you!
> 
> Woman should HAVE MORE rights than men, and should have more privileges than men.
> 
> MEN! They're all evil, they should be scorned into obscurity. Women don't need men.. EVER! :V


see I never actually said anything like that, you are just putting words in my mouth and pretending like I do actually believe those things, and like I did say those things. Please, if you wanna talk about actual feminist theory, you have to first not build strawmen out of things that never happened.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> feminist theory


Theory?!


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

@Liseran Thistle don't feed the trolls.


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> @Liseran Thistle don't feed the trolls.



You know what, you're right. No one on earth could be possibly so stupid to the point of not knowing what the term feminist theory is. I'm just gonna leave him in his corner.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> The United States has no major hate speech law outside of laws banning death threats and calls to action for violence,



This is a good thing


----------



## Doulyboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Mgtows are just incels with extra steps.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Liseran Thistle said:


> Not So Fun Fact: Lyniching wasn't recongized as an actual racist hate crime until _last fucking year._


It was already, they just made it a federal hate crime instead of a state one.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Who gives a shit about Jessie Smollett
> FBI Releases 2017 Hate Crime Statistics — FBI



That is a good example of something I will take the time to read. It is not an opinion piece, just facts. I found this particular fact interesting:

"

Of the 6,370 known offenders, 50.7 percent were white, and 21.3 percent were black or African-American. Other races accounted for the remaining known offenders: 0.8 percent were American Indian or Alaska Native; 0.7 percent were Asian; less than one-tenth of 1 percent were Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander; and 7.5 percent were of a group of multiple races. The race was unknown for 19.1 percent.
"

Now if we compare that to the racial makeup of the US you find something interesting...

U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: UNITED STATES


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 12, 2019)

larigot said:


> Unfortunatly voters don't always pick the people who are the most capable for the job.


@larigot Correctamundo... and Amen to that.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

I am not convinced that hate crimes are entirely fueled by white nationalism


----------



## Pipistrele (Mar 12, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I am not convinced that hate crimes are entirely fueled by white nationalism


They commonly are though.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> They commonly are though.



Yeah. I am hopeful that time will make this better. Not sure picking at this particular scab is gonna help it tho.


----------



## Minerva_Minx (Mar 12, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Yeah. I am hopeful that time will make this better. Not sure picking at this particular scab is gonna help it tho.


I am convinced, having lived in other countries and cultures that it will phase itself out.  God, do I hate national politics, but people like Trump will not advance a cause forward because there is no money in it.  If I can make you afraid of something, and then offer a crutch to protect you with, you will buy my protection for a made up issue.  for instance, women's equality.  you make women equal to men, you give them power.  so financial power was used to stifle political power.  you make people fear immigrants and press them that immigration is taking their jobs while you automate.  feminism, racial injustice, and other 'devisive issues are about inflicting a fear and when those fears become outrage and people fight back against institutional injustice, those in power use the new conflict to reconstruct and reinforce the reasons for the injustice in the first place, making a new generation fearful and susceptible to the same influences in order to retain power.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself. -FDR
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate.  Hate leads to suffering. - Yoda


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Minerva_Minx said:


> I am convinced, having lived in other countries and cultures that it will phase itself out.  God, do I hate national politics, but people like Trump will not advance a cause forward because there is no money in it.  If I can make you afraid of something, and then offer a crutch to protect you with, you will buy my protection for a made up issue.  for instance, women's equality.  you make women equal to men, you give them power.  so financial power was used to stifle political power.  you make people fear immigrants and press them that immigration is taking their jobs while you automate.  feminism, racial injustice, and other 'devisive issues are about inflicting a fear and when those fears become outrage and people fight back against institutional injustice, those in power use the new conflict to reconstruct and reinforce the reasons for the injustice in the first place, making a new generation fearful and susceptible to the same influences in order to retain power.
> 
> We have nothing to fear but fear itself. -FDR
> Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate.  Hate leads to suffering. - Yoda



As far as business goes, there is very little incentive to make irrational and illegal discriminatory business decisions.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Mar 12, 2019)

@Misha Bordiga Zahradník Don't be That Guy who intentionally posts shit you've been told will result in the thread being closed just because you think it's served its purpose. While I understand why you think so, it's an ass thing to do and I would not blame staff for infracting you over it, to be quite honest.



Liseran Thistle said:


> I'm not gonna blame hollywood because individual men can't control their own actions. Sure, I can say that they probably did those things BECAUSE that specific trope is ingrained in their minds, but I'm not gonna let that excuse their behaviour.


If you model a behavior to someone, and present that as being successful, I would say you do hold blame for how, as you said, "too many men _hold this idea_ that they can pursue any woman they want and if they just try hard enough they can win her over" (emphasis mine). I am not saying that these men are blameless if they refuse to take no for an answer; what I am saying is that they have been fed the fiction that this is effective or even desirable for pretty much all of their lives and _that_ is something that entertainment media has a share in responsibility for.

Now, I will admit to being flippant about it in my original post, but the point is more that influencing creators of entertainment to maybe adjust what sort of behavior they're showing as being successful in finding a partner is likely to be less of a sisyphean task than trying to re-educate every new generation of boys and men who have internalized that message.

My intent is not to make light of your experiences, but rather to suggest that going to the source of the problem is more likely to see lasting change. You've had more negative experiences than I with random guys on the Internet; I seem to have had more exposure than you to the ugly side of feminism.



Anon Raccoon said:


> I find that hypothesos strange. I just don't see degrees in studying 'injustices' in any way directly adding value to the economy.
> I wish for a good education system that directly trains people for the jobs that actually exist.
> I think it is a disservice to offer degrees that cost money but provide little value.
> It's sad but thankfully most people understand this.


Gender studies is more than "studying 'injustices'" - I'm pretty sure it was in reply to you that I went over what portions of it I personally feel should be the focus, though I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility of _some_ of the studies of 'injustices' also adding value. You're also moving from dismissing it as a valuable field of study (and by extension research) to questioning what direct value lower-level degrees could bring to the workforce. Those are two separate matters. (Also, at least here, gender studies is often offered more as a "fill up your credits" class (half the credits for my BA, if I recall correctly, could be more like a third, I can't recall offhand, were completely outside the field of study I got my degree in, because you can only add so many side courses to English (keep in mind English here is a second language, so the implications of a degree in English are different to what they'd be in an English-speaking country) without getting absurd. From what I hear most or all US colleges require some credits in eg Lib Arts for a degree in science, so that's hardly a unique situation.)

If you turn universities into tarted-up trade schools, you lose out on research that might not have obvious immediate value, but which provides a foundation for breakthroughs in other areas, including business-funded R&D. I say this as someone who is annoyed that LIS, at least at my university, seems to be taught more as a preparation for further studies than preparation for joining the workforce (despite the fact that most of us are going to go on to work as librarians, not researchers). 

Quantum mechanics didn't start out as "directly adding value to the economy," yet whatever technology you're using to view and post to this forum depends on it. If we look further back in history, a lot of now-crucial knowledge started out as humans trying to figure out how the world works for the sake of it.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

quoting_mungo said:


> From what I hear most or all US colleges require some credits in eg Lib Arts for a degree in science



I find this to be a silly requirement, but yeah I had to take these too. 



quoting_mungo said:


> If you turn universities into tarted-up trade schools, you lose out on research that might not have obvious immediate value, but which provides a foundation for breakthroughs in other areas, including business-funded R&D. I say this as someone who is annoyed that LIS, at least at my university, seems to be taught more as a preparation for further studies than preparation for joining the workforce (despite the fact that most of us are going to go on to work as librarians, not researchers).
> 
> Quantum mechanics didn't start out as "directly adding value to the economy," yet whatever technology you're using to view and post to this forum depends on it. If we look further back in history, a lot of now-crucial knowledge started out as humans trying to figure out how the world works for the sake of it.



I understand what you are saying and agree to some extent. Trade schools were never meant for research of course, companies have their own rnd departments. They are just for job training. 
I agree with the assertion that in the past there was a lot of research that was largely uncertain, without direct intent toward a specific practical application, and many research institutions (especially the medical field) are still doing good work.
My concern is that the funding oversight of modern Universities has been extremely lacking and too many checks are being written without any reasonable expectation of practical progress.
Here in the private sector they expect results, and I just like to see Universities and governments held to the same standard.

My lens is perhaps different, I like to look at things through an investors perspective. If someone comes to you asking for a loan or offering an investment opportunity it is important to ask for a plan and I think the government and universities should try better to operate that way.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> That is a good example of something I will take the time to read. It is not an opinion piece, just facts. I found this particular fact interesting:
> 
> "
> 
> ...





> *Of the 6,370 known offenders, 50.7 percent were white...
> 
> ...59.6 percent of victims were targeted because of the offenders’ race/ethnicity/ancestry bias; 20.6 percent were targeted because of the offenders’ religious bias; 15.8 percent were victimized because of the offenders’ sexual-orientation bias; 1.9 percent were victimized because of the offenders’ disability bias; 1.6 percent were targeted because of the offenders’ gender identity bias; and 0.6 percent were victimized because of the offenders’ gender bias....*


www.google.com: All of the extremist killings in the US in 2018 had links to right-wing extremism, according to new report
www.adl.org: Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2017
It's probably worth noting that hate crime statistics are reported voluntarily to the FBI, meaning departments can fudge numbers down to protect their reputation. Police forces are also often infiltrated by white supremists, meaning hate crimes may often go unreported on purpose. Below is an FBI report indicating the risk and difficulty of investigating white supremist groups due to infiltration. Then a report on information released by a Neonazi defector.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf

www.google.com: In the US, white supremacists have infiltrated police and military to get weapons training

@quoting_mungo Sorry, but the person that was debating admitted they were ignoring my sources, and was being a vitriolic asshole. I figured padt that point there was no productive discussion to be had. Shouldn't have done that. Also didn't appreciate Mikazuki trying to trollbait, and hard.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> It's probably worth noting that hate crime statistics are reported voluntarily to the FBI, meaning departments can fudge numbers down to protect their reputation. Police forces are also often infiltrated by white supremists, meaning hate crimes may often go unreported on purpose. Below is an FBI report indicating the risk and difficulty of investigating white supremist groups due to infiltration. Then a report on information released by a Neonazi defector.



This is conspiracy stuff... I'm sorry but I put this on par with Alex Jones levels of paranoia.

That document cloud report is almost entirely redacted... Almost everything it actually says is just about how it _would _be a concern if white supremacist infiltration were to happen and why it would be bad. That has zero evidence whatsoever. Just strategic risks dangerous groups to look out for, ect...
That is not evidence as it is...

I am glad the FBI is looking into the internal affairs of local police departments based on this one guy's testimony (that is their job) and the fact that things like this are rooted out so quickly gives me confidence.

Btw how did you extract 'extremist killings' from data about hate crimes? That is a tiny fraction of it.

According to the FBI hate crime statistics (which _you _posted about smollett) white americans were less likely (per capita) to commit a hate crime. 

The point is, that the demand for white supremacist hate exceeds the supply, which is how you get people pulling stunts like smollett. 


I don't think it is healthy to spread narratives that the US is such a hateful place... It really isn't that way anymore. We are winning the fight against racism and sexism already, this is an issue that is already going away on its own.

I like the Morgan Freeman approach:


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 12, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> This is conspiracy stuff... I'm sorry but I put this on par with Alex Jones levels of paranoia.
> 
> That document cloud report is almost entirely redacted... Almost everything it actually says is just about how it _would _be a concern if white supremacist infiltration were to happen and why it would be bad. That has zero evidence whatsoever. Just strategic risks dangerous groups to look out for, ect...
> That is not evidence as it is...
> ...


ucr.fbi.gov: Victims
Here is the breakdown by motive, first race and then faith. I've bolded everything that would fall under white supremacist motivation. 


> *48.6 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Black or African American bias.*
> 
> 17.1 percent were victims of anti-White bias.
> 
> ...





> *58.1 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.*
> 
> *18.6 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.*
> 
> ...


Using only the statistics for black victims and the bolded religions, ~29.13 % of hate crime is committed against black people, Jews, or Muslims. This is not counting any other ethnicity, which are often targets of white supremacist hate crime, or crimes against the LGBT community. 

Now lets assume white people are responsible for half of hate crimes against other ethnic groups and LGBT folk.  Since half of offenders are white, that's not entirely an unreasonable assumption. 

That calculation ultimately gives us 63.49% of hate crimes victimization's resulting from white supremacist motive. And before you scream "BUT THAT'S ABOVE THE PERCENTAGE OF OFFENDERS!" a single offender can have multiple victims. More organised forms of hate tend to yield a higher death toll. We can low-ball this victimization number further, but we still end up around the 50% mark. Half of all hate crime resulting from white supremacist and far right motivations is a major problem. Even the near 30% mark is still cause for major concern,  especially since white supremists are generally organised. 

As to your accusations of conspiracy theory;
taskandpurpose.com: White supremacist Coast Guard officer stockpiled firearms and hit list of Democrats for mass terror attack
www.nbcnews.com: "Disturbing" texts between Oregon police and far-right group prompt investigation
www.nytimes.com: Virginia Police Sergeant Suspended After Antifa Group Identifies White Nationalist Ties
www.burlingtonfreepress.com: Attorney general calls for outside review of Bennington police after white nationalist arrest
www.theguardian.com: How a California officer protected neo-Nazis and targeted their victims
www.essence.com: LA Sheriff's Office, Compton Station, is a White Supremacist Gang Incubator
www.pbs.org: FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed?
www.theguardian.com: US marines in fresh controversy over sniper team photo with Nazi SS flag

And this last is a flat out terrorist group with membership in the armed forces; www.pbs.org: Ranks of Notorious Hate Group Include Active-Duty Military

Furthermore, in the Gavin McInnes video from before, cops not only failed to act in the moment when his buddies where attacking others, but also drug their feet in actually arresting the perpetrators. 

The fact is, white supremist groups have been encouraging infiltration for more than a decade now. This is a policy undertaken by white supremist groups, not the exception, and one that is decades old. 

The FBI admits it is a problem, but won't release the extent of the problem to the public; which makes perfect sense form an operation security standpoint. But they have admitted it is a problem. 

We have testimony from members of white supremist groups that they are explicitly encouraged to infiltrate these organisations. Not all departments are as badly infiltrated as others, or even at all, but infiltrated departments keep popping up like a perverse game of whack-a-mole; and many have been caught trying to cover up hate crimes.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> ucr.fbi.gov: Victims
> Here is the breakdown by motive, first race and then faith. I've bolded everything that would fall under white supremacist motivation.
> Using only the statistics for black victims and the bolded religions, ~29.13 % of hate crime is committed against black people, Jews, or Muslims. This is not counting any other ethnicity, which are often targets of white supremacist hate crime, or crimes against the LGBT community.
> 
> ...



Your point was completely lost in whatever manipulation of the data you were trying to do. I pointed out that Whites are underrepresented as perpetrators of hate crimes. What are you trying to say?

This is just really sad that there are people that believe there are white supremacists around every corner and getting positive reinforcement from the mainstream media. The crisis narrative has you in its grip. America is not a racist country, it just makes great news to pretend that it is and sadly people fall for it. The FBI is not racist, neither are cops. (yeah sure, individual exceptions) But internal affairs is pretty darn good at what it does. 

And again, what is it with spamming the opinion articles?? Do you honestly expect me to read every guardian or nyt article and write a detailed rebuttal of what I think? Things like crime statistics, census data, legal documents ect I will read. But I simply will not let you turn this into 'ME vs WHATEVEROPINIONSYOUCANGOOGLE' form your own opinions please and we can talk about that. This is why I like talking politics in person, nobody can hide behind a wall of text written by someone else, and must confront me with their own ideas.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Mar 12, 2019)

None of this is has really anything to do with 'feminism' it seems


----------



## Liseran Thistle (Mar 12, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Your point was completely lost in whatever manipulation of the data you were trying to do. I pointed out that Whites are underrepresented as perpetrators of hate crimes. What are you trying to say?
> 
> This is just really sad that there are people that believe there are white supremacists around every corner and getting positive reinforcement from the mainstream media. The crisis narrative has you in its grip. America is not a racist country, it just makes great news to pretend that it is and sadly people fall for it. The FBI is not racist, neither are cops. (yeah sure, individual exceptions) But internal affairs is pretty darn good at what it does.
> 
> And again, what is it with spamming the opinion articles?? Do you honestly expect me to read every guardian or nyt article and write a detailed rebuttal of what I think? Things like crime statistics, census data, legal documents ect I will read. But I simply will not let you turn this into 'ME vs WHATEVEROPINIONSYOUCANGOOGLE' form your own opinions please and we can talk about that. This is why I like talking politics in person, nobody can hide behind a wall of text written by someone else, and must confront me with their own ideas.



Well yeah, we actually do expect you to read every article and give a detailed, and decently written response with your thoughts in it, that's what debates are, you can't not give a detailed opinion on the subject matter and learn something from it. Why do people argue at all for things they believe in, when they aren't willing to at least, idk, read the things that people post as a rebuttal to their ideals? 

And I've already said there is no such thing as opinion articles, *and you haven't even actually read those articles so why the hell are you calling them opinion articles??? *You didn't even take the time to read at least one of them.


----------



## luffy (Mar 12, 2019)

Yeah, closed.  Why can't we just _not_ set a thread on fire?  Sorry to those who were actually discussing.


----------



## luffy (Mar 12, 2019)

Hey guys, since I'm getting a few remorseful PMs about this:

Shit happens.  All you can do is look at the past and move forward with what you've learned to improve in the future.  A topic like this on the forum is honestly a catalyst and will explode eventually, and it's not any one individual that solely contributed to it being locked.  Don't be too hard on yourself!  I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior since there definitely is some and there definitely shouldn't be.  I'm just asking that if you're feeling remorseful about this topic, please try to improve how you react.  I've said before that you can't change extreme (or even mild) viewpoints held by another person most of the time, and if you can, it's likely not on FA forums.  At some point you have to concede to the fact that "this person isn't gonna give up no matter how I phrase my argument" and not result to degradation or trolling.

EDIT:  BTW I'm not Mom so I don't mean to sound condescending here.  Hopefully it's not taken that way.


----------

