# Pretentious Artists



## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 24, 2018)

Okay, I have to get this off my chest.

Why, oh why, are there so many pretentious, seld absorbed, and condescending artists running around as of late? Many of whom, unfortunately, sell commissions too.

What do I mean by pretentious? Well, people who do any of the following:

are overconfident and constantly praise their own art
overprice their art ridiculously


I'm going to be blunt.
I have no interest in buying from someone with an arrogant, vain attitude. 

I've been looking to buy commissions for the last week or two, and I have been searching across multiple platforms. Aside from people generally not reading what I'm asking for (as always) I have since got some pretty fucking odd PMs from people who aren't very good at selling me their service.

For example; I have stated my budget each time I have posted about looking for commissions. I usually specify that this is my TOTAL BUDGET, not for individual pieces, and that I'd only spend my entire budget on one piece if it was super detailed and high quality.

Despite this, I still get PMs from people offering their art for higher than what was stated. If I say my maximum budget is $40, I still get people trying to sell me their $75 rough sketches.
No. I'm not going to budge on that. 
Sorry, it doesn't matter how good you think you are, I'm not made of money and I have a fixed amount for a reason.

Another thing that keeps happening is people telling me their prices before showing examples. Huh?! Why? 

But most annoying of all is when the artist starts telling me how I should feel about their work. I say I have a budget, I get told something along the lines of "I know it's above your budget, but I guarantee it's worth it!" or "My art is perfect, amazing, stunning quality!"

Listen, let the customer decide whether oe not your art is worth it. Don't brag on and on about how _amazing quality _and _best value _your art is.
Art is subjective. If you like your own art, great! I'm envious, I hate my own art most of the time and I wish I had your confidence.

But what might seem amazing to you might not be as great to others. I can list several popular furry artists off the top of my head that others praise for having "amazing" art, that I personally think are terrible. (both for technical skill involved and trashy subject mater) 
Likewise, art I personally find appealing might seem ugly to others.

As a commission artist, your goal is to sell your product. You won't achieve that by charging ridiculous prices for minimum effort and then lecturing me about how good it is and how only your art has prestige or something. It's just going to be an immediate dealbreaker and I will probably never consider you after that.

While I definitely don't condone or encourage underpricing (my boyfriend currently sells his art for $5, stuff he works hours on and ends up with terrible, rude customers at those prices) I think overpricing is as much as a problem. 

It's pretty common for people to be charging upwards of $40 for rough sketches. In addition, who buys rough sketches anyway?! The whole point of commissioning art is to buy something I can't do, so of course I'm going to want something that's actually finished. If I wanted something rough, I could just do that myself.


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## WarriorWhispers (Aug 24, 2018)

I've seen very few artists, with a large amount of followers, post commission under $75.
Popufur issue?

I've seen a few who start at $250, which seems insane. But art isn't my skill, so I don't know what goes into it. 
I think it has a lot to do with how many people follows them, and how much they rely on it as a main source of income. 

Art is a subject thing though, and like you started there's several very popular and expensive artists that I don't think look that great. Yet there's been a few lesser known artists that are amazing(I just commissioned two of them).

After having posted a thread asking for art though, I think next time I will just be searching for an artist and messaging them directly.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 24, 2018)

WarriorWhispers said:


> I've seen very few artists, with a large amount of followers, post commission under $75.
> Popufur issue?
> 
> I've seen a few who start at $250, which seems insane. But art isn't my skill, so I don't know what goes into it.
> ...



Art prices seem to be more about the worth of the artists reputation than the actual quality of the art. Think people who pay absurd amounts of money for basic clothes from a designer brand.

That's why people will pay hundreds of dollars for a single piece of not-so-good art from an artist with thousands of followers, while many extremely talented people literally cannot sell their art for $10 because nobody knows who they are.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 24, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I'm more concerned about the ones who offer you free art but you never hear from them again.



Uh, why?
If it's for free, they don't owe you anything. 
Someone's offering their time (potentially hours) and effort to draw for you for free. If they decide not to do it, either through inability to finish it or they just don't want to, you have no right to be upset.

I abandoned my request thread after a few because, as it turns out, it took a lot longer to draw decently than I expected, as well as that people were mostly requesting characters that I couldn't comfortably draw. The thread got old, I felt like it was only fair to drop it.


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## shixane (Aug 25, 2018)

Hmm while i wont deny there are cases of that, 
I always thought that the reason they do so is just a marketing strategy or a way to ensure confidence with their potential clients like just my opinion
you wouldnt be buying from a product where the creator isnt even confident in their own work.
Though ya those who toot their own horns are quite an annoyance, Also i can understand that popularity does take into consideration to why prices are high. 
Which is the case but its the artist decision to price that way. You have no obligation to buy them despite them spamming your folder lol 
Overall at least by the end of it you're not paying these over-confident artists but may have to clean out your spam folder abit each time when these artists do. xD
Cheers


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 25, 2018)

shixane said:


> you wouldnt be buying from a product where the creator isnt even confident in their own work.



Actually, I disagree. I definitely would and I would choose someone who isn't confident in their skill over someone who thinks they're the hot shit.

In my experience, a lot of artists who claim they're not very good are actually super talented (and it gets annoying if they keep insisting they aren't) while artists who keep describing themself as "Professional" and "highest quality" are usually mediocre.

Likely because those who think so highly of themselves don't see a need for improvement and never strive to do better, because they already think they're perfect.


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## shixane (Aug 25, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Actually, I disagree. I definitely would and I would choose someone who isn't confident in their skill over someone who thinks they're the hot shit.
> 
> In my experience, a lot of artists who claim they're not very good are actually super talented (and it gets annoying if they keep insisting they aren't) while artists who keep describing themself as "Professional" and "highest quality" are usually mediocre.
> 
> Likely because those who think so highly of themselves don't see a need for improvement and never strive to do better, because they already think they're perfect.


Ahh i see well one way or the other i guess.
Its sometimes a case by case situation at times for me. Though from your views i'm happy to hear at least you did be helping lower esteem artist gain some confidence in their work.


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## zenmaldita (Aug 25, 2018)

*lowkey wants to know who's harassing your inbox with overpriced offers*
*also curious why would a popular or self proclaimed "professional" with "highest quality" work be begging someone to hire them with _"I know it's above your budget, but I guarantee it's worth it!"_ spiels"


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## nunyakibby (Aug 25, 2018)

Honestly I’ve seen this a lot with (some) popufurs. I can agree that time and energy (and overall worth due to potential popularity) goes into pricing, but I don’t think them tooting their horn and thinking that they are above all else helps that. 

I saw this one person who was kinda popular who was just like that and it was just... why. They decided to impulsively start over (I.e. closing their account outta nowhere and starting fresh) and wanted to sell an adopt for $300 while they had no more clout. And they wondered why they weren’t getting sales. :^) they were so overly confident that they forgot that you kinda need clout to even attempt to pull that kind of deal. Idk, the fact that they couldn’t put two and two together and were too blinded by pride kinda just makes my brain just go “???????????”.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 25, 2018)

zenmaldita said:


> *lowkey wants to know who's harassing your inbox with overpriced offers*
> *also curious why would a popular or self proclaimed "professional" with "highest quality" work be begging someone to hire them with _"I know it's above your budget, but I guarantee it's worth it!"_ spiels"



I won't name them publicly, since it's against the forum rules and I'll probably be banned.

But why? Did you encounter a person like this too?


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## zenmaldita (Aug 25, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> I won't name them publicly, since it's against the forum rules and I'll probably be banned.
> 
> But why? Did you encounter a person like this too?


Just curious cos it's ridiculous. They don't respect your budget but claim to be professionals xD
You don't have to say lol 
I just couldn't fathom that something like what you described happens


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## Troj (Aug 25, 2018)

Being a pedant, "pretentious" isn't quite the right word here, I don't think. Pretentious people put on airs and present themselves as more cultured or sophisticated than they really are.  You seem to be talking about people who are either a) haughty and arrogant or b) desperate and trying to oversell themselves.

You've basically articulated why I prefer to undersell and overperform, as I've always been annoyed and disgusted by people who do the inverse.

These artists you're dealing with sound a bit like used car salesmen who are trying to up-sell you on their product. Very annoying!

To be fair, it is challenging to figure out exactly how much the fruits of your labor are actually worth, so people will tend to overshoot or undershoot at first until they develop both the confidence and experience to charge what people are happy to pay.

Many furry artists also _under_sell themselves, because they just want to make a sale, and they're often just starting out. (And when you're just starting out, this is the smarter way to go.) These poor folks have to deal with entitled customers who don't appreciate the time and effort that went into a piece, and who are used to getting bargains. So, I see it from both sides.


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## Skychickens (Aug 25, 2018)

I see where you're coming from. From both sides. 

Sometimes as an artist, seeing people sell high priced, sketchy work for absurd prices quickly when you haven't made a sale in weeks is discouraging.  Whenever I bother people I look very close into what they're asking for. Is it something I honestly think I can fill? If not, I don't bother. I usually don't run into the budget issue since I have relatively low prices based solely on time, and I adjust them based on how things have been going on average for my work using the skilled formula of $10/hr. Sometimes I feel like I have to adjust it lower to even get a sale, but then I spend a large chunk of the piece thinking it would be a better use of my time to go back to a miserable brick and mortar job for the effort. 

And miserable artists don't make good work.

But I've also had the thing happen where I was decently popular on DA once and could chuck up about anything for whatever price I wanted and still make a sale. I quit that because of how bad I felt at quality after awhile. 

It really is a balancing act, and not one that's easy to be good at.

Whenever I do commission/trade/request, I try to make it as easy as possible on the other person, desperately wanting to be anything but "one of those" commissioners, and I am quite picky on who I will work with in a comm or trade. Got to have respect on both ends or things just end up badly.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 25, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Okay, I have to get this off my chest.
> 
> Why, oh why, are there so many pretentious, seld absorbed, and condescending artists running around as of late? Many of whom, unfortunately, sell commissions too.
> 
> ...



I agree with you totally - that many artists are over-rated and way too pricey (for what you're getting); but - the good news is - is that it's really a buyer's market out there - and if you shop around you can always find a good deal.. if you find the right people, of course.

Depending upon how picky you are with quality - if you want a really stupendous piece - (like an oil painting) it'll cost more, obviously.. than a simple toony flat colored piece, that's done digitally.

So the quality of the piece itself - also needs to be taken into consideration.. (by both sides).

$75 (and also $40) for a rough sketch is outrageous, btw. ☺


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## Infrarednexus (Aug 25, 2018)

I understand where your coming from. Art is subjective, and not everyone views it the same way. Some people critique it differently from others, and sometimes you won't be satisfied with every piece of feedback you receive. However, that is no excuse to be rude to the person if they are expressing their honesty in a polite manner. 

Some of my art is not liked by people, and I'm perfectly fine with that so long as they are straightforward and honest about why, because if they explain why they are not satisfied with what I created, it gives me an opportunity to improve and think of new styles to approach. It's unprofessional to lash out at those who don't praise your art or pick and choose what critique you think is "correct" and which is false. 

It's also important to not brag about your art. It just looks like an act of vanity and arrogance, or as you put it quite nicely, pretension. That's not what a respectable artist does. You can advertise your work as much as you want, but don't parade it around and claim you are making un-flawed creations worth praising.


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## Yvvki (Aug 25, 2018)

I think I know why you are getting spammed...because I have noticed this as well.

If someone posts anything in the commission forum...the same artists post the same copy/pasted response in an unofficial race to see who can get their names out the fastest.  They don't even really read what you are asking for and kind of skim through everything.

They will post even if the buyer is looking for something extremely specific that doesn't match up well. For example a cartoon artist posting their stuff when the buyer wants an ultra realistic piece.

I suppose if you are looking to buy art, it is much easier to seek out what you are looking to buy, then posting and being spammed by the Artists who are in a race.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Aug 25, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Art prices seem to be more about the worth of the artists reputation than the actual quality of the art. Think people who pay absurd amounts of money for basic clothes from a designer brand.
> 
> That's why people will pay hundreds of dollars for a single piece of not-so-good art from an artist with thousands of followers, while many extremely talented people literally cannot sell their art for $10 because nobody knows who they are.


Name means everything in art.  Even with old art in museums; much of that art isn't really anything special, it just has the name attached to it.  It's very similar to today, but its an imperfect market because you rely on either ads, which most artists of lower level can't afford anyway, or the structure of the website.  That's not even mentioning the various amounts of porn that fill up the page; people commision even bad porn art, myself included.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 25, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> I think I know why you are getting spammed...because I have noticed this as well.
> 
> If someone posts anything in the commission forum...the same artists post the same copy/pasted response in an unofficial race to see who can get their names out the fastest.  They don't even really read what you are asking for and kind of skim through everything.
> 
> ...



This is exactly what's happening.
I'm seeking something pretty niche; I need someone who can comfortably draw humanoids with monstrous traits. In the post I specifically asked for people to post examples of this type of art. I also said I'm not really interested in extremely toony or chibi styles.

What do I get? PM after PM from artists who only show me art of typical canine/mammal furries and people with very stylized art.

Unfortunately, I don't know how else to go about finding people to commission. I don't regularily browse FA for several reasons, nor do I subscribe to artists in general.

My boyfriend suggested that DeviantArt might be a better - and cheaper - bet.


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 25, 2018)

Well OP, I can't speak about the commissions since I've only ever commissioned one person and that was back in 2011 and was a friend at the time and it was pretty positive. But I think I can answer why this pretentious attitude is more prevalent nowadays in general when it comes to skilled artists and it's just social media boom. With sites like Twitter and Tumblr, it's much easier to get your art viral if it is of high quality and fan art related. Fan art is like the door in to getting noticed and if its high-quality at that, even double. 

More and more people are not wanting to comment on art and just want to fave/like/re-tweet/reblog things and I feel like this is part of the reason why more artists are becoming even more anti-social. I think back to 2004-2008 when DeviantART and FurAffinity were quite big and there was no Twitter or Tumblr yet (or at least they weren't as highly popular yet) and it seems like people talked more back then since people seemed more open to commenting on pictures. People would write journals about what's going on in their lives and actually open to talking to those who commented on their journal posts. This interaction created a link between the artist and their peers/admirers. 

But eventually this all went away when Twitter and Tumblr reached their height of popularity and gone were the days of having conversations in public. I'm not saying that every artist stopped interacting with people who weren't their friends but they were/are becoming more and more rare.

And since these days, people are expecting likes/re-tweets/re-blogs instead of comments because each like/re-tweet means more attention to their work and popularity to the point they can overcharge for their art if they'd like to. I'm sure this kinda thing also plays into commission pricing as well.

There's more but that's just what I have off the top of my head lol 




Randalieren said:


> Honestly I’ve seen this a lot with (some) popufurs. I can agree that time and energy (and overall worth due to potential popularity) goes into pricing, but I don’t think them tooting their horn and thinking that they are above all else helps that.
> 
> I saw this one person who was kinda popular who was just like that and it was just... why. They decided to impulsively start over (I.e. closing their account outta nowhere and starting fresh) and wanted to sell an adopt for $300 while they had no more clout. And they wondered why they weren’t getting sales. :^) they were so overly confident that they forgot that you kinda need clout to even attempt to pull that kind of deal. Idk, the fact that they couldn’t put two and two together and were too blinded by pride kinda just makes my brain just go “???????????”.



Oh my gosh, I have noticed this as well with 2 artists I follow. One was selling an adopt for $150 and another was selling for $200 and I mean sure, they have a very nice style that is high-skilled but WTF? Who in their right mind would pay that much for a character. Maybe it's because I'm an artist and I draw myself so I don't see the need to buy characters when I can draw my own but hot damn, would anyone really pay that much? These two artist's characters haven't sold yet neither so that should say something.


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## Yvvki (Aug 25, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> This is exactly what's happening.
> I'm seeking something pretty niche; I need someone who can comfortably draw humanoids with monstrous traits. In the post I specifically asked for people to post examples of this type of art. I also said I'm not really interested in extremely toony or chibi styles.
> 
> What do I get? PM after PM from artists who only show me art of typical canine/mammal furries and people with very stylized art.
> ...


Well before you give up. Is anime styled considered toony?
Because if not, I could do the commission. n.n; Although.... my anime styled waist up is 30$... So I'm not sure if it's cheap enough for you... It does take me 6-8 hours though. 
You could also try Gaiaonline and ask artists in a PM if they would like real money... n.n


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 25, 2018)

Yvvki said:


> Well before you give up. Is anime styled considered toony?
> Because if not, I could do the commission. n.n; Although.... my anime styled waist up is 30$... So I'm not sure if it's cheap enough for you... It does take me 6-8 hours though.
> You could also try Gaiaonline and ask artists in a PM if they would like real money... n.n



Depends on the individual style. "Anime" can cover many things. Typical anime styles (massive eyes, cutesy, etc) I'm not interested in, but more "mature" or proportioned anime styles might be okay.

Oh, and FYI; I'm seeking solo art too, but I'm also seeking couple art. 

Why Gaia Online of all places?! Seems a little random.


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## Yvvki (Aug 25, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Depends on the individual style. "Anime" can cover many things. Typical anime styles (massive eyes, cutesy, etc) I'm not interested in, but more "mature" or proportioned anime styles might be okay.
> 
> Oh, and FYI; I'm seeking solo art too, but I'm also seeking couple art.
> 
> Why Gaia Online of all places?! Seems a little random.


Ahh ok. And I have noticed a lot of really cool semi realistic artists on the site. haha. Also because of all the monster items on gaia, a lot of the artists there are familiar with drawing humanoid creatures with monster details. 

Guest Authentication | Gaia Online  Check out their instagram. n.n

This persons stuff is pretty cool looking as well but you might have to wait to commission them... 

Guest Authentication | Gaia Online

By the way, i'm not sure how much these guys are charging for their stuff but you can find some really cool art on this site.


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## nunyakibby (Aug 25, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> Oh my gosh, I have noticed this as well with 2 artists I follow. One was selling an adopt for $150 and another was selling for $200 and I mean sure, they have a very nice style that is high-skilled but WTF? Who in their right mind would pay that much for a character. Maybe it's because I'm an artist and I draw myself so I don't see the need to buy characters when I can draw my own but hot damn, would anyone really pay that much? These two artist's characters haven't sold yet neither so that should say something.




Yeah, I can see why someone would price it that high if they had like a large following, meaning demand would be higher, but if not, then they might wanna work on that before pricing themselves so high that they get no sales. Personally I've seen people bust $1k on art but that's probably because the person was popular and had a reasonable following.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 25, 2018)

Randalieren said:


> Yeah, I can see why someone would price it that high if they had like a large following, meaning demand would be higher, but if not, then they might wanna work on that before pricing themselves so high that they get no sales. Personally I've seen people bust $1k on art but that's probably because the person was popular and had a reasonable following.



Then they're spending that much money on artwork for the wrong reasons.


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## nunyakibby (Aug 25, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Then they're spending that much money on artwork for the wrong reasons.


_we all know it was for that good yiff you feel me_


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 25, 2018)

Randalieren said:


> _we all know it was for that good yiff you feel me_


Yep.. sex sells. ☺


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## nunyakibby (Aug 25, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Yep.. sex sells. ☺


it honestly really does

I should attempt myself


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## Ratchetjak (Aug 26, 2018)

Randalieren said:


> Yeah, I can see why someone would price it that high if they had like a large following, meaning demand would be higher, but if not, then they might wanna work on that before pricing themselves so high that they get no sales. Personally I've seen people bust $1k on art but that's probably because the person was popular and had a reasonable following.



Well these artists have a fairly sizeable following and get lots of commissions so I mean, there's that lol


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## zenmaldita (Aug 26, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> Oh my gosh, I have noticed this as well with 2 artists I follow. One was selling an adopt for $150 and another was selling for $200 and I mean sure, they have a very nice style that is high-skilled but WTF? Who in their right mind would pay that much for a character. Maybe it's because I'm an artist and I draw myself so I don't see the need to buy characters when I can draw my own but hot damn, would anyone really pay that much? These two artist's characters haven't sold yet neither so that should say something.



There's an OC sold at an auction at $2500 at deviantART. These things happen. The artist was also surprised that it escalated at such a price since the SB was about $35 I think (maybe $350 my memory is hazy) So yeah...there are a few cracknuts out there willing to spend hahaha

The artist was an anime artist with a painterly style focusing on bishounen with elaborate clothing and wing design. Her work was beautiful no doubt but we never expected it to reach the thousands mark lmao


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 26, 2018)

zenmaldita said:


> There's an OC sold at an auction at $2500 at deviantART. These things happen. The artist was also surprised that it escalated at such a price since the SB was about $35 I think (maybe $350 my memory is hazy) So yeah...there are a few cracknuts out there willing to spend hahaha
> 
> The artist was an anime artist with a painterly style focusing on bishounen with elaborate clothing and wing design. Her work was beautiful no doubt but we never expected it to reach the thousands mark lmao


That includes fursuits (as "artwork" also), come to think of it.. as some auctions for them get ridiculously high.. too high. But I guess it all really depends on how bad one wants something. 

If they really want it - they'll pay the big dough. Some of us though - still have our senses and won't pay this much.


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## Judge Spear (Aug 26, 2018)

Few words on this.

1) The condescending artists are actually grating, yes. I don't have an issue with people taking pride in their own work and praising it. I do have an issue with elitist snobs antagonistically tearing down others who might not be as good as them but are very clearly trying. I have seen big name artists that I could (but won't) name be complete fuckheads like their shit don't stink. Then people wonder why other artists tend to keep to themselves online and clam up when people who should be their colleagues try to talk to them. It's bullshit.

2) I've never heard of artists going to clients to ask them if they'll buy commissions from them. That's news to me as I usually find it's the other way around. That's neither here nor there though. I guess that's pretty obnoxious that you make a clear distinction in your budget, and then artists try to goad you into paying more. That's...not exactly becoming and just makes you look thirsty for clientele. I assume these are totally new and inexperienced artists doing this because none of my peers do this (or go to clients to ask to be commissioned, like I said). However...

3) There's no such thing as overpricing for the vain luxury of art. At no point in the past, present, or in the future will personal art be a critical necessity to function in any facet of life. However, *selling* it is absolutely important for someone who made it their profession/livelihood. People spending time to make something for this volatile market of luxury can absolutely charge what they feel their hours of work is worth and it does not make them pretentious or condescending for it. And this mindset is what makes a lot of artists wary and hesitant to charge what they deserve. If _you _do not want to pay for an artist's work because _you _cannot afford it or don't like it, that is your business. But if people _are_ purchasing the work of someone you find expensive, clearly there is an audience that is not dissuaded by the cost and can spare the bread to pay for it. This inherently destroys the idea that artists can overcharge. I would not pay $0.50 for JamesDarkBlueWolf's chicken scratch, but who am I to tell him how to price himself when yifferfox43 and fwuffypup69 are giving him fat cheddar for it?


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## Fallowfox (Aug 26, 2018)

I think whether artists can over charge is an interesting question, but that you're extremely unlikely to come across it when you're discussing 'subsistant' artists who live off of commissions. 
When Damien Hurst does an auction for £111m, which is enough to feed all the homeless people in England for 2 months, that's something else. x3 

Anyway, I don't really know what circumstance could lead to an artist trying to negotiate a price upward, if they know you have a budget. I would have imagined they'd wait for a different commissioner. Maybe they had an urgent bill they were trying to pay off.


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## PercyD (Aug 28, 2018)

I really don't think it's an issue of overpricing. Art takes time, and asking any thing less than $40 for a flat colored piece is asking for less than minimum wage. And thats horrible. It's not just drawing the art, it's also customer service, doing business transactions and other time drain things it takes to do business. 

Simply put, if you think a piece is worth less than the artist is charging it's better to just move on to another artist who can give you something for less. 

Now, as far as how rude artists can be, yea. I think that's a general social issue that has nothing to do with artists but more to do with common courtesy not being all that common. Thats unfortunate. Looking for art and talking with artists should be fun.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 28, 2018)

PercyD said:


> I really don't think it's an issue of overpricing. Art takes time, and asking any thing less than $40 for a flat colored piece is asking for less than minimum wage. And thats horrible. It's not just drawing the art, it's also customer service, doing business transactions and other time drain things it takes to do business.



The minimum wage is an hourly wage, and it's not a good idea to price art per hour.

People work at vastly different speeds. I've seen people who can somehow pump out several quality pieces in a day, meanwhile it takes me days to finish one mediocre piece.

Charging my art per hour would rack up an insane price, one that my skill level is definitely not worth. 

Art is also not like a physical job. It makes more sense to me to pay real-world jobs, like retail workers, much higher as the work is more intense and stressful.



PercyD said:


> Simply put, if you think a piece is worth less than the artist is charging it's better to just move on to another artist who can give you something for less.



That is what I do, but that doesn't make it okay, especially when like I said in the first post, they ignore budget and other commission details, or charge steep prices for their art then start whining publicly; "why does nobody want to buy from me?"

Overpricing is definitely a thing. Unless you've somehow secured a customer base of rich people with nothing else to spend their money on - and from my understanding those types of people tend to be heavy fetish commissioners - then you will soon see negative impact if you overprice.


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## PercyD (Aug 28, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> The minimum wage is an hourly wage, and it's not a good idea to price art per hour.
> 
> People work at vastly different speeds. I've seen people who can somehow pump out several quality pieces in a day, meanwhile it takes me days to finish one mediocre piece.
> 
> ...


Excuse me but no.
Regardless of whether art is a physical job or not, you cannot expect an artist to work for less than minimum wage. This is exactly the argument less informed people make about retail workers and fast food workers. They think that their labor is worth less. An artist's labor is not worth less either. It's also a "real-world" job. This is a really nasty attitude you have about artists and the work that they do.

Artists are still people and the money that you pay goes into supporting that person. Asking for money to support their work is not shameful.

Also, catering to people who are willing to support your art is just how art works. The people complaining about people not buying from them just haven't forged those relationships yet.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 28, 2018)

PercyD said:


> Excuse me but no.
> Regardless of whether art is a physical job or not, you cannot expect an artist to work for less than minimum wage. This is exactly the argument less informed people make about retail workers and fast food workers. They think that their labor is worth less. An artist's labor is not worth less either. It's also a "real-world" job. This is a really nasty attitude you have about artists and the work that they do.
> 
> Artists are still people and the money that you pay goes into supporting that person. Asking for money to support their work is not shameful.
> ...




Haha, no.
Art is a luxury, not a necessity.
Retail and fast food workers do important work. But furry art does not aid in one's survival or wellbeing.

And, like I said, hours taken =/= quality. 
Would you pay upwards of $100 for a basic drawing of mediocre quality, one that you think you could do better? I think not.

It's a rather stupid idea to try and make a living from art. I say this because my own boyfriend attempted that very venture, and it didn't work ot well. Most people are not willing to pay that much for art, and those that do usually request less than palatable subject matter. 

The minimum wage argument doesn't even work for most artists who overprice anyway; if the minimum wage is say, $10 an hour, (I'm well aware that it's not, but for the sake of ease, lwt's use a round and even number) then they still shouldn't be charging $40 for an uncolored, rough draft that took them a few minutes.

Which, people actually do.

And I'm willing to bet that most artists don't sit there with a stopwatch running to calculate just how much they would be charging. Also, it would fuck up the concept of fixed prices. Say your halfbodies are $50 (ludicrous unless it's a fucking realistic painting, but again, just for example), how do you know that each of these commissions will take the same amount of time and effort? Customer 1 might request a simple fox fursona, but Customer 2 might request an elaborate dragon that takes way longer to draw.


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## zenmaldita (Aug 29, 2018)

PercyD said:


> I really don't think it's an issue of overpricing. Art takes time, and asking any thing less than $40 for a flat colored piece is asking for less than minimum wage.


If the product doesn't have a certain quality for its price, overpricing can happen. Privately commissioned art for personal use is a luxury. Luxury items don't have minimum wage prices for their quality. 

Consider Akiane's skill and experience. What she can do in days, I'll take weeks to be on par. By $/hour, I would've been overpriced compared to her when she might've done a better job and took less time. Using minimum wage is tricky in art as no two artists are working at the same job, space, experience, and speed.

It's more reasonable to use art industry standards and rates. An illustrator offering commissions could base their price on an illustrator employed in a studio with similar style and quality. If the commission artist's quality is not up to industry standard, they must take a step back and reevaluate. While artists have the right to price according to their needs, one must also do their part to research the quality of art being sold in market by competitors. If one wants their commissions to *sustain *them, compete through quality, not minimum wage pricing. Because _honestly_, who can live on minimum wage? 



KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> if the minimum wage is say, $10 an hour, (I'm well aware that it's not, but for the sake of ease, lwt's use a round and even number) then they still shouldn't be charging $40 for an uncolored, rough draft that took them a few minutes.



In my opinion, KMK's $40 budget should be enough for a finished bust to a finished halfbody depending on who they hire. Outsider by Wildering is a sketch commission. According to their Commission Info, it is at least $60-$80. Although not "finished", the piece is a grounded with a solid scene that captured the customer's idea. It can stand on it's own with artistic merit and not just a messy scribble. 


I'm not saying all sketch commissions should be like this. But if you were to charge $40+ on a sketch then you should have decent artwork as KMK argues. Unpolished novice work =/= style.



PercyD said:


> KILL.MAIM.KILL said:
> 
> 
> > start whining publicly; "why does nobody want to buy from me?"
> ...


Yes, but most of all they need to improve.



KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> Art is also not like a physical job. It makes more sense to me to pay real-world jobs, like retail workers, much higher as the work is more intense and stressful.


I disagree. My time working for Disney, Universal Studios, and several TV networks, private corporations had a whole pantheon of stress! Deadlines, last minute revisions, withholding of salaries, the entire project being trashed after you spent an entire week of all-nighters in the studio wishing for a bed, your 50-something boss hitting on you while you're trying to draw Little Foot and his dino friends for the 10th time, and then the client running off with the money to another country.....It was a physically, mentally, emotionally, socially draining job. lol

Private commissions are like studio projects, only lighter. You don't have co-workers but the usual back aches, migraines, carpal tunnel, eye problems, acid reflux, sleep deprivation, stiff shoulders, etc. are there for you until you die. To be fair, I also worked in retail, tourism, real estate, ran an entire cafe on my own, and now I co-own a laundry business where cover my employees' day off's and work in the weekends. So yeah I know the physical suffering of working 11am-11pm retail/F&B/real estate, the 6am-10pm of my small business, and the 24/7 of my commissions and personal art projects. 

TLDR, all jobs are stressful and require appropriate compensation. 



KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> It's a rather stupid idea to try and make a living from art.


Yes, Art as a job is not for everyone. Even for a child prodigy like Akiane whom secured her customer base at the age of 8, might've had difficult times since everyone doesn't share the same artistic tastes to buy her art all the time. You need to invest your life into it for it to be a rewarding, steady source of income. And even if you do, it still might not work for you; that's why it is a stupid idea depending on the person.

As for me, I've never been better. Hurrah.


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## Anisa-Mazaki (Aug 29, 2018)

The artists who are usually try to sales pitch you, are usually either looking to scam you OR they're desperate for commissions.
It's better to ignore them and still pick what you want anyway - cuz I mean, it's your money in the end, no matter how much they "desperate pitch" to you,  so (shrugs)


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## Judge Spear (Aug 29, 2018)

zenmaldita said:


> Yes, Art as a job is not for everyone. Even for a child prodigy like Akiane whom secured her customer base at the age of 8, might've had difficult times since everyone doesn't share the same artistic tastes to buy her art all the time. *You need to invest your life into it for it to be a rewarding,* steady source of income. And even if you do, it still might not work for you; that's why it is a stupid idea depending on the person.
> 
> As for me, I've never been better. Hurrah.



I would extend this to any profession. Like...I'm wondering if his boyfriend had failed at something else like nephrology would the pursuit of medical care for patient's kidneys be a stupid idea to him? lol
Success is laden with a string of failures and hardship in literally any career avenue. That's life, not art.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 29, 2018)

zenmaldita said:


> I disagree. My time working for Disney, Universal Studios, and several TV networks, private corporations had a whole pantheon of stress! Deadlines, last minute revisions, withholding of salaries, the entire project being trashed after you spent an entire week of all-nighters in the studio wishing for a bed, your 50-something boss hitting on you while you're trying to draw Little Foot and his dino friends for the 10th time, and then the client running off with the money to another country.....It was a physically, mentally, emotionally, socially draining job. lol



There's a big difference between working for a big animation company like Disney, and selling furry commissions as a freelance artist. The two are barely comparable - for one you are employed by a massive company to work on mass-produced projects that have a specific standard and high demand... and one is something you do on your own terms, and your entire customer base is (relatively) everyday people who buy from you directly. There's already a big difference between self-employed commission work and a job where you're hired and paid by an employer, anyway.

This was about trying to make a living by doing commissions. Not getting a fancy animation job. Which as far as I'm aware, is a pretty difficult field to get into anyway, and probably isn't anyone's first job.



XoPachi said:


> I would extend this to any profession. Like...I'm wondering if his boyfriend had failed at something else like nephrology would the pursuit of medical care for patient's kidneys be a stupid idea to him? lol
> Success is laden with a string of failures and hardship in literally any career avenue. That's life, not art.



How is that even comparable? You need to traim extensively to be a medical practitioner... and the jobs typically pay well. If my boyfriend worked in that field we'd probably living in a nice big house somewhere in the countryside.

Again, not comparable. Training to get a job in the medical field is a good idea (if you're the kind of person that thinks you can handle it, of course) and pays well, being a furry commission artisr does not.

Medical care is kind of vital, so of course they get paid. Furry artwork, not so much.


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## zenmaldita (Aug 29, 2018)

@KILL.MAIM.KILL
yes I did include private commissions in paragraph 2 as your only source of income ^u^. I am a full time freelancer after quitting the studio life. I'm just saying not to brush Art off as a "not physical job" it's stressful cos it's all you got. Anyways, that's my 2 cents on the matter. Thanks for reading it.

Anyways have you got someone to draw for you already? or Have you given up on it altogether?


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Aug 29, 2018)

zenmaldita said:


> @KILL.MAIM.KILL
> yes I did include private commissions in paragraph 2 as your only source of income ^u^. I am a full time freelancer after quitting the studio life. I'm just saying not to brush Art off as a "not physical job" it's stressful cos it's all you got. Anyways, that's my 2 cents on the matter. Thanks for reading it.
> 
> Anyways have you got someone to draw for you already? or Have you given up on it altogether?



I didn't say that it can't be done, just that it's generally a bad idea, especially if you don't have prior experience with it.

Nope, haven't found anyone. My thread on FAF is dead, searching on Discord hasn't helped either.


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## zenmaldita (Aug 29, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> I didn't say that it can't be done, just that it's generally a bad idea, especially if you don't have prior experience with it.
> 
> Nope, haven't found anyone. My thread on FAF is dead, searching on Discord hasn't helped either.


I see...well, let's bump it up! ahahah


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## Miles Marsalis (Aug 29, 2018)

Randalieren said:


> _we all know it was for that good yiff you feel me_


I don't want to disrupt the flow here, but this line cracks me up. Write a book, man.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Aug 29, 2018)

Buying artwork is like buying a gallon of milk.. some places charge more for it, and some places charge less.. and whether or not the price being asked is "worth it" (on either side) - is certainly in the eye of the beholder. ☺


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## Ivayith (Aug 30, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> And I'm willing to bet that most artists don't sit there with a stopwatch running to calculate just how much they would be charging. Also, it would fuck up the concept of fixed prices. Say your halfbodies are $50 (ludicrous unless it's a fucking realistic painting, but again, just for example), how do you know that each of these commissions will take the same amount of time and effort? Customer 1 might request a simple fox fursona, but Customer 2 might request an elaborate dragon that takes way longer to draw.



This is why most artists charge extra for extremely complex designs. Because it's extra work, and takes more time. Even "flat rates" are usually ranges of some kind, or at the very least roughly based on amount of time taken.  I don't get it, you seem to be contradicting yourself here? Are you making the argument that artists *should* or *shouldn't* work for an hourly rate. Because a comment up you said it's a bad idea because people work at different speeds, yet here you seem to be making an argument that I would use to encourage an hourly rate. After all, it's not particularly fair to the artist if a piece that takes 17 hours because of design complexity costs the same as a piece that takes half of that time. An hourly model fixes that problem, and yes, there are absolutely artists running a stopwatch while they work and selling commissions by time rather than full/halfbody or whatever. 

I'm not saying it works for everyone, and it certainly wouldn't work for me because my process is simply not organized enough, I jump around from piece to piece too much and always forget to record, but for someone who's decent at this it absolutely makes sense I think. Not so much for someone who charges 10/hour and takes 6 hours to complete a very simple sketch, but in such an instance the artist in questions is likely a beginner and would be comfortable charging less because for them it's a hobby and a learning experience. Heck, I know I used to do that back in the day. But a professional completing a relatively clean sketch of a cityscape, complete with complex perspective, multiple buildings, and a dozen characters? By all means, they should feel free to charge 60 bucks if that's how much they feel it's worth. People are free to buy or not buy if it's outside the budget. No one's forcing you to buy art you can't afford. 

This is entirely outside the issue of rude, entitled individuals demanding you buy their stuff of course. That's completely gross and unprofessional. But I kinda feel like you're attacking prices that are out of your budget here and there, and that's not entirely fair. I don't think there's anything wrong or outrageous about a 50 usd (even if stylized) half-body painting if it's complex and/or high quality in other respects.


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## Swift12 (Aug 31, 2018)

Ratchetjak said:


> Well OP, I can't speak about the commissions since I've only ever commissioned one person and that was back in 2011 and was a friend at the time and it was pretty positive. But I think I can answer why this pretentious attitude is more prevalent nowadays in general when it comes to skilled artists and it's just social media boom. With sites like Twitter and Tumblr, it's much easier to get your art viral if it is of high quality and fan art related. Fan art is like the door in to getting noticed and if its high-quality at that, even double.
> 
> More and more people are not wanting to comment on art and just want to fave/like/re-tweet/reblog things and I feel like this is part of the reason why more artists are becoming even more anti-social. I think back to 2004-2008 when DeviantART and FurAffinity were quite big and there was no Twitter or Tumblr yet (or at least they weren't as highly popular yet) and it seems like people talked more back then since people seemed more open to commenting on pictures. People would write journals about what's going on in their lives and actually open to talking to those who commented on their journal posts. This interaction created a link between the artist and their peers/admirers.
> 
> ...


This is something I noticed too and I hate it. I cannot understand how someone can have like, 500 favorites and barely 2 comments on his submissions. I usually have the opposite on mine, LOL. And that's what I prefer, to get people talking about a theme or cartoon or other thing I just drew about.  And I also noticed most of the big-name artists live in ivory towers and never even reply to comments - which in turn, makes people less inclined to comment on their pics.  I guess you are right that Twitter and Tumbler - places where you usually cannot reply just "retweet", whatever the hell that is, to posts, is to blame. I guess I avoided all this 'cause I hate these social media sites and avoid them like the plague. I still wonder why some people would post their art, untagged, impossible to find, on tumbler or other such sites (I forgot which one was that allows porn) instead of a proper art site like FA or the many other furry sites. Lack of tags means unless you follow an artist you will simply never come across most of the R34 they draw, not unless someone takes the effort to post it on a tagged site like R34 or E621.


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## BunBunArt (Sep 1, 2018)

It's just business. Not arrogant. When you wanna buy a sofa they will always try to get you buy a more expensive one, telling you it's the best you can find and so... even if you can't pay it they will try to convince you somehow. It's pure marketing and you will find that almost everyday. I recently bought a house and exactly the same thing happen. Same for a couch, a house, internet, even at the little markets buying fruits and clothes... So art is just one service more. If you can't afford then look for other artists...there are LOTS of awesome artists with cheap prices, but they aren't famous so it's not easy to find them.

As for the high prices, yes it's true, many artists aren't so awesome and they still overcharge, but they surely have a reason: they have a lot of demand so they need to put higher prices and accept fewer commissions for more money. It's nothing arrogant about it... It's how it is.

It's simple,if you don't agree with price, then don't buy. I do the same, and many clients did the same to me after they heard the price and there was no problem at all. 
People are willing to pay a lot if they really want a drawing from a speciffic artist. They would pay crazy prices for it, I saw it and it's true, people go crazy to get to the waiting list of a famous artists when he/she opens commissions at super crazy high prices.


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## KILL.MAIM.KILL (Sep 1, 2018)

RoxyHana said:


> It's just business. Not arrogant. When you wanna buy a sofa they will always try to get you buy a more expensive one, telling you it's the best you can find and so... even if you can't pay it they will try to convince you somehow. It's pure marketing and you will find that almost everyday. I recently bought a house and exactly the same thing happen. Same for a couch, a house, internet, even at the little markets buying fruits and clothes... So art is just one service more. If you can't afford then look for other artists...there are LOTS of awesome artists with cheap prices, but they aren't famous so it's not easy to find them.



That doesn't mean that it works.
If I were to buy a sofa, I'd need to know the true details about it. I'm not going to buy something just because the seller insists that it's "SO AWESOME" and "BEST QUALITY," especially if it doesn't appear to be very quality at all. Of course a seller might describe their own stuff as "awesome," but it's not truthful.

If I buy a product, I will buy the one that is advertised as just what it is, no hyperbole. I don't want to buy "WOAH SUPER DELUXE AWESOME ROYAL LUXURIOUS BEST VALUE SOFA", I will buy the one that states it's a sofa with X fabric used on it and Y size. Exaggeration and bragging is going to make me far less likely to buy something, even if I was considering buying it in the first place.


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## BunBunArt (Sep 1, 2018)

KILL.MAIM.KILL said:


> That doesn't mean that it works.
> If I were to buy a sofa, I'd need to know the true details about it. I'm not going to buy something just because the seller insists that it's "SO AWESOME" and "BEST QUALITY," especially if it doesn't appear to be very quality at all. Of course a seller might describe their own stuff as "awesome," but it's not truthful.
> 
> If I buy a product, I will buy the one that is advertised as just what it is, no hyperbole. I don't want to buy "WOAH SUPER DELUXE AWESOME ROYAL LUXURIOUS BEST VALUE SOFA", I will buy the one that states it's a sofa with X fabric used on it and Y size. Exaggeration and bragging is going to make me far less likely to buy something, even if I was considering buying it in the first place.



I didn't say you have to buy anything, I'm just pointing out that sellers will always try to sell at the highest price and what they consider their best work, it's how market works... It's your choice to study more or less about the product's quality and decide, but it's not the seller's fault to try to sell you something. It's just his job... like any other job :/

Nobody is forcing you, it's just how marketing works. Maybe my art is good for x people and bad for others, maybe it's perfect for some people because they don't give a shi* about proportions... and maybe it's crap for others because they need more quality, therefore, they are willing to pay more.... there is no right and wrong here, just marketing.

As I said, there are crappy artists out there who's art is worth a lot of money. It's the clients who decide what to do and it's as simple as that, don't blame the artist, study the products and choose what duits you best.


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## Infrarednexus (Sep 1, 2018)

Some people rely on making art for others to get all of their money, rather than a standard job like the average person, so it makes sense that they would charge more than $10 for a really well done piece. They still have to eat, pay the electric bill, do taxes, and other things just like the rest of us. These artists are CHOOSING to sell their work to us. Charging a little extra is not instantly pretentious. It could mean that they are in a financial crisis and need every penny they can save. 

We actually have artists who sell their work for money, but also come to these forums to offer their work for free. That's how I got this avatar. I'm not going to assume they are snobs for charging more than the average person when it is more likely that they are struggling to keep a roof over their head. Be thankful that they are even willing to sell their talent to you instead of leaving and getting a regular job, because that means that they are really devoted to following their passion and sharing it with the rest of us.


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