# Kothorix's new video makes me want to stop being a furry.



## Meikiron (Nov 2, 2018)

Seriously. I watched it all. It almost made me fucking cry.   
seriously now i'm a bit depressed and angry that the fandom that i like and want to be associated with is like this, and i feel like taking it out on either myself or this $200 music sound module my dad bought me that's on my desk. i'm trying to restrain myself.   

The main points in the video (which are also the reasons why I want to leave) are:

- If people are going to prey on little children and get them to do stuff they shouldn't,   
- If the fandom is going to be a breeding ground for horny teens, kiddy fuckers, and animal fuckers,   
- if people are going to be sociopathic about sex ("OwO i will ask you to rp with me until you get annoyed and you block me", i was one of these people so I know what it was like),   
- if STDs are going to be given to people in the fandom without people's consent,   
- if furries are going to be the degenerate sex freaks that they constantly claim not to be,   
- if the fandom is going to be full of really hateful people,   
- if the fandom is going to be full of special snowflakes and people defending them, and full of depressed and socially awkward people and shit, who only want to bitch and moan and rant, and cuddle if they want,   
- if the fandom is going to be perpetually high-school-minded without ever growing up, without any maturity,   
- if the fandom is going to be a "hivemind" full of SJW's who take things out of context and drive people to the point of suicide, and an "anti-hivemind" who is supposedly against this "hivemind" but does the exact same things as said "hivemind",   
- if the fandom's "rules" are going to be hypocritical (e.g. feral artwork is okay because it's just art, but no cub art isn't, again, the work of the "hivemind"),   
- if the "vocal minority" is going to be 1/3 of the fandom, instead of 5% like people claim it to be (and that people even make this claim),   
- if people are going to claim that the fandom is better than it is,   

- if the fandom is going to be incessantly toxic,   
- if the fandom is going to have a higher concentration of the listed above than any other fandom,   
then people should not be a part of the fandom.

Like I WANT to be a part of the fandom but these things greatly concern me.

Another thing is this gem I found:



> The Furry fandom is overtly sexual. Every single one of the points this guy listed is 100% true except that I'd consider the "vocal minority" to be larger and even a majority. The thing with furries is unlike most fandoms there is no central focus. There isn't a game or show or anything that has a group of fans surrounding it, it's just a bunch of people that are weirdly attracted to animals. If you cut out the NSFW part and be an "SFW furry" then you are depriving yourself of 99% of the fandom's focus. As much as talking about "degenerates" sounds dumb, furries truly fit that definition. Most of the furry fandom's appeal is art and, if not most, I'd say that there's a tremendous amount of disgusting drawn bestiality that is justified because they make the dogs look like people. I hate the fandom because from personal experience and observation furries are almost exclusively focused on sex, drama, and porn. The public hates the fandom because without any personal experience and very minimal observation they see the same thing. And in regards to the Kero the Wolf "drama", most of the fandom made tweets about how "we as the fandom need to do better, we can do it guys! =D" which is just the same as "Thoughts and prayers" when a mass shooting happens in that it is meaningless talk and accomplishes no change.



Like seriously idk what to think or do.


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## idkthough120 (Nov 2, 2018)

Same but I never watched the whole thing 'cause it would make me bored...


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## Rayd (Nov 2, 2018)

really doesn't take a whole lot to make a video like that and if it took you a video someone else made to realize all of these very obvious flaws in the fandom then you're part of the "hivemind."


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## Meikiron (Nov 2, 2018)

whyt31 said:


> Same but I never watched the whole thing 'cause it would make me bored...


Play at 1.5x speed


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## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Nov 2, 2018)

While I don't doubt or want to drag down his experiences, what struck me in his videos was the the monotonic negativity of it. Like in Kero's instance he completely dismissed the reaction the zoosadist group got from the majority of the fandom, and that "20% of furries fuck animals" statistic seems sketchy to me. It's clear from the video that he's going through some kind of stress or trauma, likely because of his association with the Kero episode and all that. With that said, I respect people who wish to leave the fandom but seeing how my personal experiences have been nothing like what he describes the majority of us being I can't but call that video one of his weakest. Because in the end the fandom is what one wants to make of it, I for instance like to go hang out in bars and play board games with local furries, make friends online and discuss whatever. While the over abundance of yiff art is more than obvious I've never let it overtake the non-sexual parts of my interaction with the fandom, and being quite honest I've come to enjoy the "SFW" parts of it even more lately.

So in a nutshell: people who fuck animals, jack off to cubs, sexually prey on others (especially minors), intentionally go around creating drama or spreading STDs, whore for attention or popularity etc. can go remove themselves from the gene pool for all I care. Accusing the whole community of such awful things however feels highly unjustified to me.


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## WolfyAmbassador (Nov 2, 2018)

I'm not even half way through the the video and all of the shit he's saying is so true.


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 2, 2018)

Lesson: Don’t get involved in drama
Imo, a lot of drama he faced was because he tried to get involved himself, people only want to prove their point(and some will go to extreme lengths to) it’s not often their willing to learn/expand perspective. It’s a whole me vs them perspective.

And, you can’t paint a whole community off of some people’s actions.
Despite the community being ‘toxic’ I’ve met some really nice and cool people here


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## WolfyAmbassador (Nov 2, 2018)

24:31 sounds all too familiar.


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## Meikiron (Nov 2, 2018)

Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf said:


> Admittedly drama and retarded behaviour exists in all of them but seeing how every fandom, political, ideological or philosophical group, religion etc. has always been riddled with the same exact crap it's naive to assume furries would be much better in that regard.



True that. Especially when we have our own unique problems.


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## Scales42 (Nov 2, 2018)

Yeah, this video left me in a pretty depressing state aswell. But there are many points that I simply dont agree with, furries lacking social skills, furries looking for attention etc.

I think it completely depends on the people you interact with in the fandom, and while I wont deny that the fandom has serious issues, many of the things he adressed havent been my experience... and I'd like it to stay that way.


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## Ravofox (Nov 2, 2018)

Thing is, absolutely nothing in the world is without issues or controversy. Cars crash everyday, does that mean you should stop driving a car? The furry community is much, much more than all the drama, it's just that the drama is what everyone focuses on.


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## Meikiron (Nov 2, 2018)

Ravofox said:


> Cars crash everyday, does that mean you should stop driving a car?



Not the best analogy in my book.


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## Ravofox (Nov 2, 2018)

Meikiron said:


> Not the best analogy in my book.



Yeah, i realize it wasn't the best! A better analogy is probably sports clubs actually. Fans and players can stir up all kinds of mayhem, but many people don't let it distract them from the enjoyment of going to matches. If you feel like you want to distance yourself from it, that's no problem. Do what you want to do


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

After watching it and deliberating with the bf, we both sorta agree that even though Koth may have had a bad experience, there's not a whole lot in the video besides anecdotes and questionable evidence (for example, the STD chart in the video is admitted to be inaccurate by Koth in the credits)
I feel really bad that he's had these experiences and I don't blame him for wanting to leave, but I think in his fervor, he may be a little bit hyperbolic.

It also sounds like the furry community took up way too much personal time of his and he himself accepted that it would be really good to put all this behind him and go out and find more productive things to do.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 2, 2018)

So I think the problem here is just that Kothorix is a person selling some very nasty ideas that make people unhappy about themselves.

Kothorix isn't the sort of man I would recommend you place your trust in. When I pointed out a scientific error to him, in a video he made about climate change, he accused me of being part of a conspiracy to make governments worried about climate change so that scientists could embezzle research money and enrich ourselves.

I make £14,500 a year, having turned down a £27,000 a year job in order to do this research job!

So yeah...just ignore Kothorix and enjoy yourself and like, feel happy. Don't worry about him; he's nuttier than a vegan christmas.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So I think the problem here is just that Kothorix is a person selling some very nasty ideas that make people unhappy about themselves.
> 
> Kothorix isn't the sort of man I would recommend you place your trust in. When I pointed out a scientific error to him, in a video he made about climate change, he accused me of being part of a conspiracy to make governments worried about climate change so that scientists could embezzle research money and enrich ourselves.
> 
> ...


It's generally not a good idea to ignore someone's claims based on completely irrelevant claims, regardless of how incorrect they might have been.

Thoughts need to stand on their own merits.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Nov 2, 2018)

If anyone chooses to focus on the negative of a fandom?
That's what they're going to see, obsess over, and eventually come to accept as what said fandom is all about.

I don't see the entirety of the Furry Fandom as being overrun by degenerates that prey on children, animals, or the dead bodies of animals (damn, but necrophilia freaks me the hell out like almost nothing else can!).

I get that people become overwhelmed, suffer burn-out, and need to take time off (or totally quit), and start another path.  Kudos to them.

Evaluate the facts, make your choice, and move-on.

Don't let one person's actions command you.  That's a very myopic and dangerous way to live.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 2, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> It's generally not a good idea to ignore someone's claims based on completely irrelevant claims, regardless of how incorrect they might have been.
> 
> Thoughts need to stand on their own merits.



You agree with me anyway that Kothorix's claims about furries being all of these horrible things are bullplop.

This isn't a matter where we have to commit to a formal investigation of his claims anyway. We're in the territory of 'obvious fruitcake'.



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> If anyone chooses to focus on the negative of a fandom?
> That's what they're going to see, obsess over, and eventually come to accept as what said fandom is all about.
> 
> I don't see the entirety of the Furry Fandom as being overrun by degenerates that prey on children, animals, or the dead bodies of animals (damn, but necrophilia freaks me the hell out like almost nothing else can!).
> ...



Somebody watched me a few weeks ago and their art gallery had porn of 'dead' furries in it. 
Creepy as hell! 

But I remember that I have like >1000 watchers and that's the first one I've had who's creepy-sauce.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> You agree with me anyway that Kothorix's claims about furries being all of these horrible things are bullplop.
> 
> This isn't a matter where we have to commit to a formal investigation of his claims anyway. We're in the territory of 'obvious fruitcake'.


I'm surprised that someone of apparently higher intelligence would stoop so low as to commit to an ad-hominem argument.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 2, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I'm surprised that *someone of apparently higher intelligence *would stoop so low as to commit to an ad-hominem argument.



I am so flattered.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> I am so flattered.


I don't know if you're being sincere or...


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 2, 2018)

I feel like a lot of his points are things we already knew about, but that either they were worse/more frequent then we thought or that Koth just gets hit way harder by it then we do because of his... I dunno, 'prominence?' and being vocal.


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## Simo (Nov 2, 2018)

Never heard of this Kothorix guy. Sounds really crabby.

But ranting you-tube furry videos are one part of the fandom I totally ignore...I'd much rather be writing some paragraphs for a good RP, and savor the anticipation when I see a reply, chat with friends, look at art, write, and plan out ideas for comics...if I can ever find an artist, to collaborate with! 

These kind of videos are just not for me; life's way, way too short for me to dwell on the rantings of drama-loving popufurs.

This also reminds me of a term I have used sometimes:

Negafurs: furs who spend most of their time in the fandom bitching, complaining, and being crotchety, ornery and self loathing. I have never got this. If you can't find a niche in the fandom...and there are many...maybe try a new hobby?


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 2, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> I feel like a lot of his points are things we already knew about, but that either they were worse/more frequent then we thought or that Koth just gets hit way harder by it then we do because of his... I dunno, 'prominence?' and being vocal.


I’d assume the latter, like I stated earlier; He tried to get involved with drama and controversies, so I could see him getting a higher amount of these issues


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

By the way, I didn't notice if this was said before but...
You don't stop being a furry because you stop participating in the social sphere.
You can still enjoy making art, watching old Disney movies, w/e you do without associating with the social aspects.

There are things I absolutely love of which you won't find me dead within their fandoms.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 2, 2018)

If any of you want furry youtube videos that actually make you feel good:







Simo said:


> Never heard of this Kothorix guy. Sounds really crabby.
> 
> But ranting you-tube furry videos are one part of the fandom I totally ignore...I'd much rather be writing some paragraphs for a good RP, and savor the anticipation when I see a reply, chat with friends, look at art, write, and plan out ideas for comics...if I can ever find an artist, to collaborate with!
> 
> ...



What if self loathing is their fetish? o:


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 2, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> By the way, I didn't notice if this was said before but...
> You don't stop being a furry because you stop participating in the social sphere.
> You can still enjoy making art, watching old Disney movies, w/e you do without associating with the social aspects.
> 
> There are things I absolutely love of which you won't find me dead within their fandoms.


No escape


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 2, 2018)

Simo said:


> If you can't find a niche in the fandom...and there are many...maybe try a new hobby?


When in doubt, you could always be a meme maker.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> Despite the community being ‘toxic’ I’ve met some really nice and cool people here


I love you, too, Deer
;D


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## Simo (Nov 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> If any of you want furry youtube videos that actually make you feel good:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is a funny point!

But even not as a fetish, I do think it is one sort of neurotic behavior one sees: clinging to something that makes a person unhappy, and a refusal to let go, change or move on. This behavior is seen all over, from marriages, to jobs, to almost anything humans do. I think people  get to a point where they feel their primary meaning in being unhappy, and negative: it becomes familiar, and even comforting in its own dysfunctional way.


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 2, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I love you, too, Deer
> ;D


*headpat*
I’m still loving that leaf joke :u


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

Simo said:


> That is a funny point!
> 
> But even not as a fetish, I do think it is one sort of neurotic behavior one sees: clinging to something that makes a person unhappy, and a refusal to let go, change or move on. This behavior is seen all over, from marriages, to jobs, to almost anything humans do. I think people  get to a point where they feel their primary meaning in being unhappy, and negative: it becomes familiar, and even comforting in its own dysfunctional way.


It's basic human psychology.
A lot of people prefer things that are familiar as opposed to unknown.
At least they can foresee what can happen in a familiar setting, but the unknown is scary.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 2, 2018)

Simo said:


> That is a funny point!
> 
> But even not as a fetish, I do think it is one sort of neurotic behavior one sees: clinging to something that makes a person unhappy, and a refusal to let go, change or move on. But this behavior is seen all over, from marriages, to jobs, to almost anything humans do. I think people  get to a point where they feel their primary meaning in being unhappy, and negative: it becomes familiar, and even comforting in its own dysfunctional way.



Deprecate me, daddy. Make me feel _bad_ about being a furry. Tell me I'm _bad_. 

I definitely agree though that some people appear to divine some sense of security in finding everything unhappy and depressing. But we shouldn't do that; that's what our teenage years were for, lol.


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## Simo (Nov 2, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Deprecate me, daddy. Make me feel _bad_ about being a furry. Tell me I'm _bad_.



BAD fox! Bad, bad, bad naughty furry fox!


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## Fallowfox (Nov 2, 2018)

Simo said:


> BAD fox! Bad, bad, bad naughty furry fox!



Stinky disgusting skunk. You're so bad that somebody's going to make a youtube video about how unbearable this chain of comments is!


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 2, 2018)

My biggest concern is not that the fandom has some major problems but that those within it trivialize them and act like it won't effect them personally or that by simply ignoring them they will go away. Many popular YouTubers furry and otherwise have already touched base on this including Quartz Husky (Fjord Frost) and 2 The Ranting Griffin.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 2, 2018)

Mr. Fox said:


> My biggest concern is not that the fandom has some major problems but that those within it trivialize them and act like it won't effect them personally or that by simply ignoring them they will go away. Many popular YouTubers furry and otherwise have already touched base on this including Quartz Husky (Fjord Frost) and 2 The Ranting Griffin.


I agree.
Even if Koth is talking mostly out of anecdote, we should still ready ourselves in case we come across a truly harmful person.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Meikiron said:


> Stuff I had to cut out because of the character limit



Kothorix's points about people defending pedos and zoophiles are true, the fact people still defend Kero of all people is proof of that. There are some large underlying issues with the fandom. To that point, I agree, way to many people line up to take a bullet for pedos or zoophiles, cause said pedo or zoophile have a 'totally cute sona omg". The fandom has it's issues, but so does every community, it's human nature. It revolts me that furries are still riding out to defend Kero, and I'd like people to be more vigilant about people who do those things.  Though the same issue was prevalent in the Minecraft community, you had creeps preying on kids there to hook up with them. Alot of communities faced serious issues like these.

What baffles me about Kothorix is that instead of trying to weed out pedophilia and zoophila in the fandom, he acts as an apologist for them. The "Art is Art" video, really is a gem, he literally used the 'well this anime character who has the body of a 13 year old is actually a 3000 year old vampire' excuse to defend normalizing shota, loli and cub art. In his now unlisted "in defense of pedophiles" video, he actually bemoaned that people find a 16 YO age of consent law distasteful and even mentioned Japan's 13 year old age of consent law without any sort of reservations over that, and even came off as chiding over the revulsion people felt over it.  To quote Kothorix "The law is not divine" as he so often likes to rail on about, as if that's the reason people accept the law and are so condemning over pedophiles. Another choice quote from his Art is Art video. "Well, it offends my christian sense of morality. Better ban it!" Cause normalizing pedo and zoo is not weird, creepy or harmful at all.

This is the same guy who interviewed a guy who has pretty unapologetically drawn underage porn of various cartoon characters, as well as trying to downplay Kero having sex with roadkill and trying to still paint him as a stand up guy. "Before you grab your pitchforks, let's discuss what that actually means". Also, this choice quote, "20% of the furry community are zoophiles.....the only people who care are moralizing SJW fucks." This guy, Kothorix, he doesn't care about this issue at all. If he did care, he'd not have, as he freely admitted "try to help Keo come out of this ok" nor would he have made a video that attempted to normalize pedo and explicit feral art. So forgive me, if I feel he doesn't really care as much as he tries to let on in that video he uploaded.

I'm not in Kothorix's head space and I can't definitively say anything, granted, but as it seems to me, he sure seems pretty apathetic about the whole pedo/zoo conundrum in the fandom.

Your second point, the horny teens thing is just teenagers being teenagers, it's not a fandom specific endemic, though I would agree on the last two, though as I said before, Kothorix seemed rather apathetic about it beforehand.

Third point. Idiots in every community, sex desperate teens and macnhildren aren't fandom specific, but yes, I agree I find those people irritating. It should be noted that Kothorix seems oblivious to the fact he is a public figure.

Fourth point - not a furry specific issue, human nature issue, but yes, I find it concerning and remarkably selfish, so I agree.

Fifth point - Is the anime community going to be full of hateful people? Is the surfing community going to be full of hateful people? Is the TF2 community going to be full of hateful people? There are angry hateful douche bags in every community, stop associating with that sect of people if you don't want to deal with them. There are social cliques and gatherings in every single part of humanity, why that is so hard to grasp is beyond me.

Sixth point - Read the above point and replace 'hateful people' with 'special snowflakes', every community has people like those.

Seventh point - There are plenty of mature furries that are rational, well spoken and willing to have a genuine discussion. Kothorix, just seems to not want to face the reality of being a youtuber and that the topics he discusses are contentious. He's personally responded to other youtubers and participated in contentious topics and personal spats, so it should come as no surprise that he finds himself involved in some drama (he actively participates in it at times). It's like LeafyisHere talking shit about somebody in his video than bemoaning that people are giving him a bunch of shit for giving his commentary. Kothorix is a public figure and this is what countless youtubers who deal with contentious subjects face, he's not special or unique, nor is the fandom an egregious gossip girl sim. Kothorix is just upset that he has to deal with a stereotypical youtuber thing, that most youtubers willingly accepted. There are plenty of immature people in plenty other communities, really.

Eight point - Sure, he's on point with this, there are two extremes, the very socially conscious and the anti SJW alt furry side of it I guess, though the other side of the coin is much smaller.
Though again, this isn't the only community that suffers from group think, though I'll admit it is a pretty extreme example of it. I'd also once more like to bring up that he is a public figure, making contentious topics, the hell did you expect? You can't please everybody, it's easier to just accept that reality than rage and seethe over it. I get the point he made, it just seemed like he was just whining and stomping his feet angrily in the vid.

Ninth point - What? The rules are hypocritical? Can I say the same about the anime community? Can I say that some disprove of loli and some don't? Because it'd be true. In an ideal world sexual feral art and cub art would be universally reviled, but we don't live in an ideal world. Rather disturbingly there are some people who advocate for cub and feral art, and there are people who vehemently oppose it. You'll get this same clash with other less harmful topics like sexual fetishes and such, because wowzers, you're telling me that a group of people can all have their own individual beliefs and values? Wow, that really blows my mind, never would have thought of that. Kothorix seems confused as to how somebody could dislike his personality or his beliefs for differing reasons, as if the reason for why he is being criticized must all be the same generic recurring criticisms and anything outside of that is asinine. If you walk in the middle of the road, you'll end up getting run over from both lanes. Just how it is when you trend towards the center.

Tenth point - The vocal minority is about 1/3 according to Kothorix, so apparently that anecdotal evidence must be correct. He is a youtuber, and as is a recurring theme, he can't take the magnified reaction to his controversial opinions. this isn't a fandom issue, this is a youtuber not being able to accept that he is a public figure making controversial statements, thus inciting a more impassioned and aggressive responses.

If you ask me, Kothorix was a part of the issue, the pedo and zoo apologist stuff really doesn't sway me towards thinking he was any help, rather I felt he was an active detriment to it. The only thing I'll give him props for was being able to force Kero into outing himself, even if he incessantly tried to keep Kero's reputation in tact all the while, I still have to give him props for playing a part in Kero getting outed. That whinging, long winded whine video he made about the fandom was him finding an easy out to salvage his bad reputation. He chose a pretty easy target to salvage his reputation on, the fandom has deserved image issues, but he's not doing this out of any moral reservations, he's doing it to keep his reputation in tact, which is why I have little respect for him. If he had any legitimate moral reservations about the fandom he'd have either done something meaningful or left the fandom a long time ago.

The fandom does have some of these traits you mentioned much worse than others, and I'd like to see a real change put forward. As mean as it sounds, furries NEED to be less accepting. The explicit feral art, the cub art, the pedos, and the Keros need to go. These people need to leave. But here's the thing, I don't buy for a second that Kothorix really actually cared so passionately about most of these issues. I feel he's just trying to save face, and he acts of if people really care why he left the fandom, and even mentioned how people hailed him as the 'Voice of Reason'. It all stings of narcissism, or huffing your own farts to put it less eloquently.

With all that said though, I don't dislike or hate Kothorix, but the sudden emergence of this sanctimonious, self important attitude does quite irritate me.

I can understand why people dislike the fandom, just as I can understand why they find it unappealing or weird, it's not lost on me, there are tons of issues with it. It can be sexual, which isn't inherently bad, it's more when bestiality and cub start entering the fray that I have an issue. So I do agree, furries can be way too deviant. Something needs to happen, but you act as if this is the only community that has deep underlying issues, and to see it that way is rather myopic, considering how much other awful shit that happens in many other communities. I'm for bringing change, but let's try to keep a balanced perspective and not act as if humans aren't just inherently prone to being weird, creepy and utterly degenerate. I legitimately think that being less accepting can bring about good change for the fandom, personally.

Now, if you want to leave, go for it, not going to hold you back, but I'm not going to pull away from the fandom cause some out of touch, thin skinned youtuber can't take the heat from his own controversial opinions, sorry.


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## Aika the manokit (Nov 3, 2018)

If I met the guy, I'd slap him upside the head and take his recording equipment because he obviously doesn't need it. But alas, I don't watch videos like that cuz I'm too busy watching people who are not stupid. I agree with you, but I'm not leaving cuz I'm better than that.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Meikiron said:


> Seriously. I watched it all. It almost made me fucking cry.
> seriously now i'm a bit depressed and angry that the fandom that i like and want to be associated with is like this, and i feel like taking it out on either myself or this $200 music sound module my dad bought me that's on my desk. i'm trying to restrain myself.
> 
> The main points in the video (which are also the reasons why I want to leave) are:
> ...


I've been a part of this fandom for literally my entire life. I don't see what he's seeing. I just don't. For starters, I only talk to people who make me happy in some way. I only do things that bring me joy and hopefully bring others joy or at least some help (I'm not always good at this, but trying is better than not trying.) If someone is being awful, I don't associate with them. I also have a robust life outside of the fandom. I'm not as entrenched in it as other people are, apparently. Also, I keep to myself and make art. I am so not into this drama that he's on about, and honestly, most of his points are highly sensationalized and unique to his personal experience.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> By the way, I didn't notice if this was said before but...
> You don't stop being a furry because you stop participating in the social sphere.
> You can still enjoy making art, watching old Disney movies, w/e you do without associating with the social aspects.
> 
> There are things I absolutely love of which you won't find me dead within their fandoms.


Bronies being my personal example of this. I fucking LOVE my little pony, but pedophiles and zoophiles and other scum figuratively stink bombed the entire fandom. It seems to be nastyass perverts and plot elitists remaining. Everyone else has left. Now, I just enjoy the show by myself, ignoring everyone else. Now the word "brony" is derogatory because guys with no sense of decorum had no idea how to properly handle the material they were given.


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 3, 2018)

I agree with a lot of the points he makes throughout the video but "leaving the fandom" seems a bit too much.

You shouldn't stop doing what you enjoy just because some stinkos shit up the place. For example, I don't stop playing videogames because some ResetEra users decided to DDoS CD Projekt and GOG. 
Instead of quiting the fandom you should try avoid these people and call them out when they do something like the Kero leaks.

But whatever, that's just my opinion


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I agree with a lot of the points he makes throughout the video but "leaving the fandom" seems a bit too much.
> 
> You shouldn't stop doing what you enjoy just because some stinkos shit up the place. For example, I don't stop playing videogames because some ResetEra users decided to DDoS CD Projekt and GOG.
> Instead of quiting the fandom you should try avoid these people and call them out when they do something like the Kero leaks.
> ...


I feel like... if all the good people who hate pedophilia and zoophilia and such LEFT... then furries would be all nasty. Like how the brony fandom got figuratively stink bombed by those people, and now the only people who are still calling themselves bronies are just... not the best people. Like, at all.

I agree with you. Let's call the disgusting bastards out. Let's get the cops involved, if need be, or at least tell someone's parents or guardians so they can deal with this. Let's stand together and say, "This is a community about cartoon animals, not deplorable, illegal acts."


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

I also want to say how fucking STUPID it is that he went off on fursuit makers like More Fur Less and Made Fur You, and all who buy from them. What the fuck did that have to do with the rest of the rant? Fursuits aren't air Jordan's. We aren't brand snobs. We're people who, unsurprisingly, prefer cartoon animals to realistic ones most of the time. Also??? The pricing issue???? Realistic suits are pricey as FUCK compared to toony suits??? That argument fell apart so fast.


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I feel like... if all the good people who hate pedophilia and zoophilia and such LEFT... then furries would be all nasty



A thousand times this


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Simo said:


> That is a funny point!
> 
> But even not as a fetish, I do think it is one sort of neurotic behavior one sees: clinging to something that makes a person unhappy, and a refusal to let go, change or move on. This behavior is seen all over, from marriages, to jobs, to almost anything humans do. I think people  get to a point where they feel their primary meaning in being unhappy, and negative: it becomes familiar, and even comforting in its own dysfunctional way.


YOOOOOOOO this is what I've been saying for YEARS. I called these people "discontentists" when I was a child, but I guess the official term is a person who uses cynicism as a coping mechanism


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## Yakamaru (Nov 3, 2018)

The fandom have problems that needs to be solved. Zoophiles, pedos, creeps and other degenerates. 

If you sit on your ass doing nothing you are perpetuating the problems further(tho I won't really blame you for not wanting to get involved in any drama/stress). If you actually want to do something you are attacked for it. Apathy is a problem the same way a lack of action is. 

This "Furries need to stick together" bullshit is the reason we have this human garbage in the fandom in the first place. Too much tolerance and/or a lack of consistent moral standards will end up in people exploiting it/you. Kero being one of them. 

I don't want this crap in the fandom as it tends to paint the entire fandom as a bunch of socially inept, morally bankrupt zoophiles/pedophiles.

That said, Kothorix's views have changed over 2 the ~2 years I used to watch him. He have either genuinely changed his mind, or have a lack of standards and are now trying to save face. It's in some ways simple: Clean up your own direct social sphere.


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 3, 2018)

Conformity kills creativity and the soul


Simo said:


> it becomes familiar, and even comforting in its own dysfunctional way.





Zehlua said:


> YOOOOOOOO this is what I've been saying for YEARS. I called these people "discontentists"



I guess some people just enjoy feeling miserable, like they are some kind of victim and that their unhappiness is someone else's fault


----------



## Massan Otter (Nov 3, 2018)

So the OP is stopping being a furry, by signing up and posting on a furry forum? Surely the way to stop a furry would be to not do that...


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> The fandom have problems that needs to be solved. Zoophiles, pedos, creeps and other degenerates.
> 
> If you sit on your ass doing nothing you are perpetuating the problems further(tho I won't really blame you for not wanting to get involved in any drama/stress). If you actually want to do something you are attacked for it. Apathy is a problem the same way a lack of action is.
> 
> ...


YAAASSSSS


----------



## Yakamaru (Nov 3, 2018)

Jasonafex also made an interesting Journal some 9 hours ago, which kinda touches upon the subjects already mentioned in the thread:
www.furaffinity.net: Furries are Toxic - What to do about it  -- Jasonafex's Journal


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## Attaman (Nov 3, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Jasonafex also made an interesting Journal some 9 hours ago, which kinda touches upon the subjects already mentioned in the thread:
> www.furaffinity.net: Furries are Toxic - What to do about it  -- Jasonafex's Journal


"What's the biggest problem with Furry, these days? Is it the Zoophilia? The Pedophilia defense? The (supposed) commonness of willfully spreading STDs to partners without their consent*?"
"No. It is none of those things: It's the college students. Them and their "Identity Politics" which are the true problem."

Jasonafex in a nutshell, everyone. For a bit of humorous engagement with his journal entry instead of its writer, however, I'm a bit curious as to how they came to the conclusion that the target demographic has "become" college-aged persons considering we have had surveys going back _pre-2012_ which conclude that the vast majority of the fandom's members has almost *always* been around the 18-25 age bracket. And that's about as much engagement as I can actually give the post because the writers is a hilariously blatant case of the old "throwing stones in glass houses" proverb with about ninety percept of the points they bring up when not grandstanding.

Furthermore, while the fandom... definitely isn't exactly where I'd like it to be, it's definitely come a long way in the last six years versus the other way around (wherein there was less and less blatant Nazi apologia, yeah, but _almost infinitely more_ for Pedophilia / Zoophilia to the point that one of the big scandals a few years back was quite literally 'Neer going "Take your cub porn elsewhere". Something that was only done in the first place not out of a moral stance or the like but because _it was costing FA money from advertisers and risked its costs exceeding its ad revenue. _Or perhaps we should get into the "How dare Google adjust its search algorithms so you can't just type a MLP character's name in Image Search and immediately be bombarded with porn: I shouldn't have to add the word 'Porn' or NSFW' to my search query!"?). Not to say the first of those three things isn't a huge problem in and of itself, particularly taken in context with current events, but given the way the wind's blowing even in _that_ regard and that this is breaking off from the OP's point, I'd argue the fandom is in a much better spot now than it was even just 3-4 years ago when you couldn't even look on forums like this or Phoenix without tripping over people patting themselves on the back over some _pretty horrible shit_.

*There's a handful of Furry "popufur" examples who engaged in as much, but to my knowledge no official studies on the matter so I'm including it mostly due to OP's inclusion.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

I feel there are two fallacies buzzing around with Kothorix and Jasonafex.

'Every furry is disgusting except for me,' and 'Get off my lawn you damn whippersnappers'.

@KimberVaile already pointed out that the folk who complain that all of the furries are 'degenerates' routinely turn out to be hypocrites who defend monstrous behaviours themselves, like drawing pornography of underage characters, and of course, in the case of people who complain about 'identity politics', you'll often find them attacking imaginary versions of college students over minor grievances that don't_ really_ matter, but performing mental gymnastics to defend people's 'right' to say racist things on social media.
So why do these folk insist that all of the furries are disgusting degenerate identitarians? I have a suspicion it's because, if they can persuade themselves that everybody else is worse, their _own_ sins don't seem so bad anymore.

There's a much simpler explanation for people who complain about all the young furries of course. They just haven't realised that 'everybody seems so young' not because everybody else is getting younger, but they themselves getting *older*. x3


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## Meikiron (Nov 3, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Jasonafex also made an interesting Journal some 9 hours ago, which kinda touches upon the subjects already mentioned in the thread:
> www.furaffinity.net: Furries are Toxic - What to do about it  -- Jasonafex's Journal


Jasonafex is cancelled, he's no better than Kothorix

But I'm stupid and can't think for myself and idk what to think about his journal or explain/refute it

Why do I let everyone's negative experiences make me want to stop being a furry


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## Kumali (Nov 3, 2018)

Who are Kothorix and Jasonafex and why should I care?


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Kumali said:


> Who are Kothorix and Jasonafex and why should I care?



Who are they?
Jasonafex is an artist and animator famous for making popular pornographic animations. Sometimes his commission slots sell for hundreds of dollars.

Why are they controversial?
Jasonafex made a litany of strange statements on social media, such as suggesting that children benefit from being beaten, and made himself infamous after producing a comic called 'man's best friend' in which the characters have sex with their dogs.


Who are they?
Kothorix used to be a furry. He has a youtube channel that started with game reviews and transitioned into a soap box for his political views.

Why are they controversial?
These pictures should be self explanatory.


Spoiler


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## Dancy (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Who are they?
> Kothorix used to be a furry. He has a youtube channel that started with game reviews and transitioned into a soap box for his political views.
> 
> Why are they controversial?
> ...


_let's not forget that kothorix is a pedo apologist who has always gone to bat for pedophiles on furry youtube._
_ugh._​


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## Pipistrele (Nov 3, 2018)

Kothorix's new video makes me want to stop watching videos by random edgelords on youtube.


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## Massan Otter (Nov 3, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Kothorix's new video makes me want to stop watching videos by random edgelords on youtube.



Perfect!


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Kothorix used to be a furry.


lol no
There's a difference between stopping being a furry and dropping out of the community.
He only dropped out.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 3, 2018)

The cognitive dissonance in this thread is real, and a little cringy.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Mr. Fox said:


> The cognitive dissonance in this thread is real, and a little cringy.


Please explain.


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## Kumali (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Who are they?
> Jasonafex is an artist and animator famous for making popular pornographic animations. Sometimes his commission slots sell for hundreds of dollars.
> 
> Why are they controversial?
> ...





Dancy said:


> _let's not forget that kothorix is a pedo apologist who has always gone to bat for pedophiles on furry youtube._
> _ugh._​



Fair enough, thanks for the info. But I personally don't feel in any danger of wanting to "stop being a furry" just because such people exist...they don't represent me as a furry any more than the disgusting likes of Rush Limbaugh, say, represents me as an American.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Kumali said:


> Fair enough, thanks for the info. But I personally don't feel in any danger of wanting to "stop being a furry" just because such people exist...they don't represent me as a furry any more than the disgusting likes of Rush Limbaugh, say, represents me as an American.



Oh definitely, yeah.


----------



## Faexie (Nov 3, 2018)

I found his video interesting, but I, as well as many people who have been in the fandom for years, have never (or rarely) came across the toxicity he's talking about.

The way Kothorix has been interacting with the fandom made it so that he would see the dark side of the fandom more often than the average furry would.

When he talked about adults adults preying on teens and children, he mentioned that at 14 he was actively seeking porn and sexual roleplay. Now, while I think roleplaying is as harmful to a teen as watching porn featuring adults (wich is not much, watched lots and I'm just fine), the fact that some adults want to do this with them makes me uncomfortable. And also he said that some were harassing him or trying to have irl sex, wich is not ok. And I'm also not trying to victim blame him. But anyway, what I was going to is that a teen who is seeking out sexual roleplay is more likely to attract creepy perverts than a teen who doesn't.

Most of his examples of toxic sjws were from twitter and tumblr, platforms wich are already well known for their toxicity. And when he says that most of the problematic people were furries, I'm assuming that, as a furry youtuber, most of his followers are furries in the first place. But I didn't look it up so I might be wrong.

He talked about inconstistent rules about what's acceptable or not (like bdsm one day being good and the other day bad), but I think that's just a case of different people/groups believing different things.

When he said that most people prefer toony fursuits because that's what's popular, I'm somewhat sceptic. I think there may be a bit of that, but let's think about what made most furries furries: Disney, cartoons... most of it in a cartoony style. And yes, really good looking toony suits cost a fortune. Top tier makers are in high demand after all.

Speaking about that statistic that 20% of furries consider themselves zoophiles, if it really is accurate, it's possible that there is more nuance that that, because the definition of zoophilia differs depending on the person. Some zoophiles will fantasize about animals, watch drawings of them or videos of them mating with their own species, but would never have sex with an animal or watch people do it. Other people may believe that an attraction towards anthropomorphic animals count as zoophilia, even if there is no attraction to real life/feral animals, too.

And a whole bunch of other thing that is a problem with people on the internet in general, and not with the furry fandom specifically.

Every fandom have some toxicity to it, but it's possible to avoid it to an extent so that it can still be enjoyable.


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## Tyno (Nov 3, 2018)

Meikiron said:


> Seriously. I watched it all. It almost made me fucking cry.
> seriously now i'm a bit depressed and angry that the fandom that i like and want to be associated with is like this, and i feel like taking it out on either myself or this $200 music sound module my dad bought me that's on my desk. i'm trying to restrain myself.
> 
> The main points in the video (which are also the reasons why I want to leave) are:
> ...


Here's what i've learned from people don't rely on them for these types of things. Go look for yourself don't just believe someones words it's literally taking someone else's opinion without making your own. Kothorix was obviously biased opinion i've watch him myself but bias isn't always a good thing (if ever).


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## Pipistrele (Nov 3, 2018)

Mr. Fox said:


> The cognitive dissonance in this thread is real, and a little cringy.


Frankly, I just got irritated by his unreasonably condescending tone combined with a lot of arguments bordering on "edgy right-wing youngster" stuff I usually see on Kiwifarms - both combined with the fact that he still uses a cyan dragon fursona and drops slang around, so it's a rather half-assed attempt at "leaving the fandom" in any case. I'm not even denying the problematic state of the fandom, and I never shied away from mentioning some of its worst aspects (especially the horrible situation with underage participants and lack of control in that regard) - it's just that the guy himself appears to be kind of a self-righteous douche, and the way he delivers the message kills a lot of otherwise valid complaints that should ideally be discussed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Detective Tyno said:


> Here's what i've learned from people don't rely on them for these types of things. Go look for yourself don't just believe someones words it's literally taking someone else's opinion without making your own. Kothorix was obviously biased opinion i've watch him myself but bias isn't always a good thing (if ever).


It's called anecdotal evidence. You can make any claim you want based on what you experience, but you need to bring evidence to the table if you want to talk about a larger scale issue.
He did try a couple times with charts, but they're of nebulous quality, admitting the STD line chart is flawed in an update made in the comments.

Also, everyone is going to have bias in some way or another. We're creatures of memories and experiences and will always compare new information to old in search of patterns.
Take in all information skeptically and assess them critically with other sources. It's the only way to escape bias.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

-Surrounds self with drama and contentious furry topics
-Defends cub porn and zoophilia
-Is a youtuber that has a large furry fanbase that watches him
-Complains about toxicity in the furry community.

Kothorix sure is a smart lad.


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## Faexie (Nov 3, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Frankly, I just got irritated by his unreasonably condescending tone combined with a lot of arguments bordering on "edgy right-wing youngster" stuff I usually see on Kiwifarms. I'm not even denying the problematic state of the fandom, and I never shied away from mentioning some of its worst aspects (especially the horrible situation with underage participants and lack of control in that regard) - it's just that the guy himself appears to be kind of a self-righteous douche ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


He's usually not that biased and does his best to understand other points of view, even with points of views that make him uncomfortable. A lot of his videos were very interesting to me. I think he was just in a bad place and needed to vent.


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## Pipistrele (Nov 3, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> He's usually not that biased and does his best to understand other points of view, even with points of views that make him uncomfortable. A lot of his videos were very interesting to me. I think he was just in a bad place and needed to vent.


He probably is? Fact is, he still made a very poor job of delivering the message, which is something I find a more realistic reason people dislike the vid, rather than "sick burn, ur cringe"


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## Faexie (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> -Defends cub porn and zoophilia



Well, not exactly. He comes from a very religious background and has been told he was a devil worshiper for being into dragons (both sexually and not) and for having sexual feelings at all. So he has that mentality that "x is bad because it's bad and you shouldn't question it" is wrong, wich brings him to entertain the notion of pedophilia and zoophilia being not that bad. But he doesn't really think that, he actually finds these things gross.

Basically his stance is that having sexual feelings and experimenting with them in a fictional way is fine, but acting on it irl (and encouraging others to do so) is horrible.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Well, not exactly. He comes from a very religious background and has been told he was a devil worshiper for being into dragons (both sexually and not) and for having sexual feelings at all. So he has that mentality that "x is bad because it's bad and you shouldn't question it" is wrong, wich brings him to entertain the notion of pedophilia and zoophilia being not that bad. But he doesn't really think that, he actually finds these things gross. Basically his stance is that having sexual feelings and experimenting with them in a fictional way is fine, but acting on it irl is horrible.


Not a lot of study seems to have gone into this, so don't take my word as ultimate truth, but it does appear that pedophiles who use an analogue, like artwork or dolls, they're far less likely to inflict themselves upon real people.
I personally find it appalling, but I also think that such claims should be studied more because they would be for moving toward a society where children are kept safe and people with the problem can be treated safely.


----------



## Miseix (Nov 3, 2018)

I have no authority to really care about this, but there are clearly furrs here whom are more qualified for this,
If it means anything, I think you need to steel yourself up, 
As a posed to acting like a pile of jelly,
(no offense)


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

Furries suck but the concept of "stop being a furry" has never made sense to me because a bunch of people being awful doesn't really stop one from liking something. Like I'm not gonna stop thinking anthropomorphic animals are rad just because random furry over here is being awful. 

Instead I'm just going to be filled with high levels of anxiety on a daily basis scared shitless some other furry is going to yell at me someday.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> Furries suck but the concept of "stop being a furry" has never made sense to me because a bunch of people being awful doesn't really stop one from liking something. Like I'm not gonna stop thinking anthropomorphic animals are rad just because random furry over here is being awful.
> 
> Instead I'm just going to be filled with high levels of anxiety on a daily basis scared shitless some other furry is going to yell at me someday.


That honestly sounds worse lol


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> shota, loli and cub art.





KimberVaile said:


> Cause normalizing pedo and zoo


Completely different concepts. Fans of such art are not pedophiles. Fans of feral are not zoophiles.


KimberVaile said:


> Fifth point - Is the anime community going to be full of hateful people? Is the surfing community going to be full of hateful people? Is the TF2 community going to be full of hateful people? There are angry hateful douche bags in every community, stop associating with that sect of people if you don't want to deal with them. There are social cliques and gatherings in every single part of humanity, why that is so hard to grasp is beyond me.


I've never seen anime fans go out of their way to create callout posts to harass artists over drawings but I see that pretty regularly in the furry fandom. Where the anime fandom celebrates and WEARS SHIRTS of artwork by porn artists like Asanagi and Shindol, furry artist equivalents would be shunned and made outcasts.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Well, not exactly. He comes from a very religious background and has been told he was a devil worshiper for being into dragons (both sexually and not) and for having sexual feelings at all. So he has that mentality that "x is bad because it's bad and you shouldn't question it" is wrong, wich brings him to entertain the notion of pedophilia and zoophilia being not that bad. But he doesn't really think that, he actually finds these things gross.
> 
> Basically his stance is that having sexual feelings and experimenting with them in a fictional way is fine, but acting on it irl (and encouraging others to do so) is horrible.



My counter argument is that allowing cub porn and explicit feral art normalizes it, which makes the environment less hostile to said people who enjoy it. The end result being an environment full of open pedos and zoos. That's just what tends to happen when you allow that type of art to propagate. As an addendum to that, in his "in defense of pedophiles" video, he goes on about how being legally 18 to do anything sexual is arbitrary and even goes on to bemoan people who have issue with the age of consent being at 16 in some states. He even goes on to cite the age of consent in Japan being 13 as a positive example.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> My counter argument is that allowing cub porn and explicit feral art normalizes it, which makes the environment less hostile to said people who enjoy it. The end result being an environment full of open pedos and zoos. That's just what tends to happen when you allow that type of art to propagate. As an addendum to that, in his "in defense of pedophiles" video, he goes on about how being legally 18 to do anything sexual is arbitrary and even goes on to bemoan people who have issue with the age of consent being at 16 in some states. He even goes on to cite the age of consent in Japan being 13 as a positive example.


To be honest, i've never looked into it much except from the side of preventative medicine.
What's the evidence that supports the claim that it causes normalization and creates environments full of pedo/zoophiles?


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> Completely different concepts. Fans of such art are not pedophiles. Fans of feral are not zoophiles.
> 
> I've never seen anime fans go out of their way to create callout posts to harass artists over drawings but I see that pretty regularly in the furry fandom. Where the anime fandom celebrates and WEARS SHIRTS of artwork by porn artists like Asanagi and Shindol, furry artist equivalents would be shunned and made outcasts.



Fans of SFW feral art not zoos, and fans of SFW cub are not pedos. Cub porn, and feral porn however, heavily imply at a specific sexual interest. I won't outright say people who follow such art are pedos and feral, but it does heavily imply that they are at best. 

I've seen people in the anime community throw down and threaten to kill people for not liking their favorite anime, I've seen people threaten death over liking dub over sub, it's not a rose garden there, and pretending like that community isn't capable of the same stupidity that furries are is disingenuous.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> To be honest, i've never looked into it much except from the side of preventative medicine.
> What's the evidence that supports the claim that it causes normalization and creates environments full of pedo/zoophiles?



Desensitization and acceptance, it's just what happens when you are exposed to something enough, it becomes normal.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Desensitization and acceptance, it's just what happens when you are exposed to something enough, it becomes normal.


You're comparing things of albeit similar, but different natures.
A similar line of thought is that violent video games cause people to be more violent due to desensitization, but in fact the evidence points to the opposite is true.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> You're comparing things of albeit similar, but different natures.
> A similar line of thought is that violent video games cause people to be more violent due to desensitization, but in fact the evidence points to the opposite is true.



Video games however are being used out for entertainment, cub porn is being used for arousal purposes, the motivations behind each couldn't be any more different.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Video games however are being used out for entertainment, cub porn is being used for arousal purposes, the motivations behind each couldn't be any more different.


Depends on how you define 'entertainment'
Still, though. These aren't evidence and appear, due to lack of evidence, as unfounded claims.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Depends on how you define 'entertainment'
> Still, though. These aren't evidence and appear, due to lack of evidence, as unfounded claims.



Normalization is a well documented aspect of sociology, lol. I could explain in cut and dry detail if you so prefer, but it'd make for a pretty boring post.

Video games cast a wide net of appeal, the art, the gameplay, the music, the tone, the immersion, there are so many different aspects that can appeal to a person. With cub porn, the appeal is pretty blunt and focused. It seeks to arouse and there is little more to it.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> I've seen people in the anime community throw down and threaten to kill people for not liking their favorite anime, I've seen people threaten death over liking dub over sub, it's not a rose garden there, and pretending like that community isn't capable of the same stupidity that furries are is disingenuous.


Ah fine, very well. Its not as if there isn't infighting; its just infighting over different things.
Plus I know in Japan there's some extremist otaku that have done stuff like physically attack idols and such. This for example:
Japanese man sentenced for saw attack on pop stars - CNN


KimberVaile said:


> Fans of SFW feral art not zoos, and fans of SFW cub are not pedos. Cub porn, and feral porn however, heavily imply at a specific sexual interest. I won't outright say people who follow such art are pedos and feral, but it does heavily imply that they are at best.





KimberVaile said:


> Desensitization and acceptance, it's just what happens when you are exposed to something enough, it becomes normal.


My problem with this is that it still implies there's some sort of relationship to begin with. I mean, I get that there are similarities between such art and the real world, and I can understand being suspicious of people that draw or like such content.
But it still focuses on similarities between such content and real world desires and I feel as if that's unfair. For example, you're saying that a normalization of cub porn would normalize pedophilia. I'm assuming because such art has features that resemble children, correct? But why is the focus specifically on similarity? Does one not agree that there are also significant differences between such art and a real world child? Normally speaking, you would not mistake such art for a photo for example, right?
The artistic differences from shading and coloring to proportions, style, general features, the way characters act in some cases, etc are all things that can differentiate such art from the real world, correct? If this is all true, then how is it not unfair to associate such content with pedophilia, or in the case of feral artwork, zoophilia? Do you think people who enjoy such content view it in the same way they'd view real children or animals?

I hate the way people make this association as it encourages the real world harassment of artists and fans of artwork over content that is...well, not real world. It implies some moral wrongdoing of content aimed at adults over fiction for the sake of protecting children and animals when such content, in the case of cub, isn't intended for them and such content, in the case of feral, doesn't necessarily endanger an actual animal.

I like art. Art is this weird world of freedom where people can explore all sorts of strange, wonderful, and terrible ideas. Its a way to experience that which doesn't exist, that which cannot exist, and that which shouldn't exist in a way that's entirely separated from reality. A fantasy that people can escape to and indulge in. While its not untrue to say that art can have some effect on reality, and the opposite also happens, they're still very different things, and relating the two is limiting to artistic freedom and hurtful to artists that wish to indulge themselves in something that, under normal circumstances, shouldn't have any real world harm provided necessary precautions are taken and an understanding that such content in the real world is bad is strongly established.


----------



## Faexie (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Video games however are being used out for entertainment, cub porn is being used for arousal purposes, the motivations behind each couldn't be any more different.


Some people play violent video games to let off steam and express anger, too. I think there should be more scientific studies on the effects of pedo porn, etc. instead of just going with what we assume is true.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Normalization is a well documented aspect of sociology, lol. I could explain in cut and dry detail if you so prefer, but it'd make for a pretty boring post.


That's not necessary.
I've already put away the normalization theory by showing that normalization does not necessarily mean the increase of such behaviors by people.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> That's not necessary.
> I've already put away the normalization theory by showing that normalization does not necessarily mean the increase of such behaviors by people.



You didn't prove anything, you just disagreed with me.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> It's called anecdotal evidence. You can make any claim you want based on what you experience, but you need to bring evidence to the table if you want to talk about a larger scale issue.
> He did try a couple times with charts, but they're of nebulous quality, admitting the STD line chart is flawed in an update made in the comments.
> 
> Also, everyone is going to have bias in some way or another. We're creatures of memories and experiences and will always compare new information to old in search of patterns.
> Take in all information skeptically and assess them critically with other sources. It's the only way to escape bias.


The STD chart was shocking to me! I've never seen such a thing before... who is stupid enough to hook up with complete strangers like that??!!!


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> You didn't prove anything, you just disagreed with me.


You claimed normalization increases actions.
I claimed it does not, yet can actually decrease.
Here, I can post evidence.
http://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/ppm0000030
EDIT: I have access to the document if you want it.

Now you can say it compares apples to oranges, but your claim is about normalization, not the mediums.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

As much as I run to the defense of artwork I think its fair to say that video game violence and cartoon porn have different effects on the brain.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Some people play violent video games to let off steam and express anger, too. I think there should be more scientific studies on the effects of pedo porn, etc. instead of just going with what we assume is true.



Which is a good thing, it makes them less violent in real life, and I am aware the same can be said of people who like cub porn. Though, while video games being openly accepted is something I find good, something I find less stellar is what could happen if Cub porn was openly accepted. I feel it would allow a cultivation of more practicing and open pedophiles within the fandom.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> You claimed normalization increases actions.
> I claimed it does not, yet can actually decrease.
> Here, I can post evidence.
> http://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/ppm0000030
> ...



No, my claim was the mediums are so vastly different that it is asinine to assume that Video games are remotely comparable to cub porn. My normalization argument still applies to cub porn, because normalization in that particular case is detrimental.

Cause seeking to entertain yourself or vent negative emotions is comparable to posting a image entirely dedicated toward appealing to people who enjoy underage characters in sexual situations.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Which is a good thing, it makes them less violent in real life, and I am aware the same can be said of people who like cub porn. Though, while video games being openly accepted is something I find good, something I find less stellar is what could happen if Cub porn was openly accepted. I feel it would allow a cultivation of more practicing and open pedophiles within the fandom.


No offense, but your feelings have no bearing on what actually happens.



KimberVaile said:


> No, my claim was the mediums are so vastly different that it is asinine to assume that Video games are remotely comparable to cub porn. My normalization argument still applies to cub porn, because normalization in that particular case is detrimental.


Prove how it is detrimental.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Well, not exactly. He comes from a very religious background and has been told he was a devil worshiper for being into dragons (both sexually and not) and for having sexual feelings at all. So he has that mentality that "x is bad because it's bad and you shouldn't question it" is wrong, wich brings him to entertain the notion of pedophilia and zoophilia being not that bad. But he doesn't really think that, he actually finds these things gross.
> 
> Basically his stance is that having sexual feelings and experimenting with them in a fictional way is fine, but acting on it irl (and encouraging others to do so) is horrible.


My personal stance is that you shouldn't  entertain subjects like pedophilia or zoophilia at ALL in ANY romantic or sexual context. There genuinely are certain kinks that need professional help, for the health and safety of yourself and others.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> No offense, but your feelings have no bearing on what actually happens.
> 
> 
> Prove how it is detrimental.



Nor do your feelings matter on what actually will happen. 

Gee dude, your right, having cub porn openly accepted and giving people with a sexual interest in underage characters to congregate and spread their interests and art work of it, can't see how that would lead to any issues or larger image problems in the fandom. No, not at all.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> My counter argument is that allowing cub porn and explicit feral art normalizes it, which makes the environment less hostile to said people who enjoy it. The end result being an environment full of open pedos and zoos. That's just what tends to happen when you allow that type of art to propagate. As an addendum to that, in his "in defense of pedophiles" video, he goes on about how being legally 18 to do anything sexual is arbitrary and even goes on to bemoan people who have issue with the age of consent being at 16 in some states. *He even goes on to cite the age of consent in Japan being 13 as a positive example.*



I think a little bit of puke came up.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Nor do your feelings matter on what actually will happen.
> 
> Gee dude, your right, having cub porn openly accepted and giving people with a sexual interest in underage characters to congregate and spread their interests and art work of it, can't see how that would lead to any issues or larger image problems in the fandom. No, not at all.


Here we go.
"There are certainly anecdotal reports of negative consequences, aside from sex crimes, attributed to pornography. These range from domestic violence (e.g., Sommers & Check, 1987), to child abuse (e.g., Burgess & Hartman, 1987). There is, however, no evidence that pornography is in anyway causal in such terrible and regrettable crimes (Howitt & Cumberbatch, 1985). These anti-social and criminal acts, we believe, are more likely due to the poorly parented and inadequately schooled individuals with poor self or social control mentioned above."
www.hawaii.edu: Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> I think a little bit of puke came up.


The federal age is 13, but no local government in Japan adheres to it; the lowest you can find is 16 if I recall correctly.


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## Simo (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> -Surrounds self with drama and contentious furry topics
> -Defends cub porn and zoophilia
> -Is a youtuber that has a large furry fanbase that watches him
> -Complains about toxicity in the furry community.
> ...





Ramona Rat said:


> ...He comes from a very religious background and has been told he was a devil worshiper for being into dragons (both sexually and not) and for having sexual feelings at all...
> 
> Basically his stance is that having sexual feelings and experimenting with them in a fictional way is fine, but acting on it irl (and encouraging others to do so) is horrible.



Diagnosis: He is sexually frustrated (among other things), and not getting much action.

Whatever wild room parties and what not that go on in the darkest recesses of the fandom that he complains about, he ain't gettin' any. The dammed up libidinal energy and other anger he feels about life in general compel him to make these videos for furries to suffer though. He has not at all left the fandom but simply taken on a different but acrimonious, if not psychologically sadistic roll in it.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Not a lot of study seems to have gone into this, so don't take my word as ultimate truth, but it does appear that pedophiles who use an analogue, like artwork or dolls, they're far less likely to inflict themselves upon real people.
> I personally find it appalling, but I also think that such claims should be studied more because they would be for moving toward a society where children are kept safe and people with the problem can be treated safely.


In my opinion, pedophiles should be treated with therapy, medication, and possible genital surgery in extreme cases. Giving them art and other forms of media doesn't seem like a good idea, as it only encourages them.
As a victim of childhood sexual assault at the age of four by my grandfather, I recognize firsthand the damage pedophilia can do. It's an extreme kink with the intent to do extreme harm.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Here we go.
> "There are certainly anecdotal reports of negative consequences, aside from sex crimes, attributed to pornography. These range from domestic violence (e.g., Sommers & Check, 1987), to child abuse (e.g., Burgess & Hartman, 1987). There is, however, no evidence that pornography is in anyway causal in such terrible and regrettable crimes (Howitt & Cumberbatch, 1985). These anti-social and criminal acts, we believe, are more likely due to the poorly parented and inadequately schooled individuals with poor self or social control mentioned above."
> www.hawaii.edu: Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan



web.archive.org: NCPCA Child Sexual Exploitation Update Newsletter Volume 1, Number 3, 2004

"Conclusion

The notion that viewing pornographic depictions of children has no relation to child molestation is without basis. While statistical absolutes are impossible to draw in an arena such as this, evidence from actual investigations and experience tells us it is a small leap from viewing child pornography to molesting children. Individuals who find pleasure in viewing images of children engaged in sexual activities have already violated social norms with their deviant sexual interests. Therefore, it is not a farfetched idea that a viewer of child pornography will emulate the crimes being committed in those images. Possessing child pornography is a red flag to deviant sexual interest in children. Perpetrators should be pursued with vigilance, based on the assumption that where there is child pornography there is child abuse. "


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Nor do your feelings matter on what actually will happen.
> 
> Gee dude, your right, having cub porn openly accepted and giving people with a sexual interest in underage characters to congregate and spread their interests and art work of it, can't see how that would lead to any issues or larger image problems in the fandom. No, not at all.


Wait, had the wrong line copied from another discussion. Here we go.
In Denmark homosexual child molestation decreased more than 50 percent from 74 cases in 1966 to 20 cases in 1969 (Ben-Veniste, 1971; pp. 254). These decreases in sex crimes involving children are particularly noteworthy since in Japan, as in Denmark, for the time under review, there were no laws against the personal non-commercial possession or use of depictions of children involved in sexual activities; so-called "childporn" (Kutchinsky, 1985a; pp. 5). Considering the seriousness in how sex crimes against children are viewed in both cultures, this drop in cases reported represents a real reduction in the number of offenses committed rather than a reduced readiness to report such offenses.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

This topic is...I may as well get my feelings out.
I personally hate furries as a fandom because the fandom makes me feel like I have a target on my back. I regularly browse Twitter, and its not uncommon for me to see people, *especially* furries, making callout posts about other artists for their artwork. Very usually such callout posts are in regards to cub artwork, though sometimes they go into other kinds of artwork such as incest, noncon, etc. These callout posts typically make a lot of claims about these artists and in turn encourage public shaming and harassment of such artists. Because of this, I've grown to be rather anxious. I fear a callout post might be made about me someday. Or, worse yet, I fear abandonment.

I'm a very lonely person. I'm not social at all. As such, I've grown very attached to the few people I have in my life. However, I've come to realize in part through the reactions to such callout posts that many of my friends would also disapprove of the artwork that I like. And it makes me worry that someday I might be abandoned by my friends and made an outcast to where I'd be truly alone. It makes me feel like my relationships are built on lies. I'm not a strong person; I can take an insult, but the moment someone thinks morally less of me I fall apart. I try and want to be a good person as much as I can. I care very much about the people around me and don't want to see them hurt. But...I also want to enjoy myself and indulge in artwork that I enjoy without any sort of fear. But I can't; I'm constantly afraid one day someone is going to make a point of it and all my friends whome I deeply care about, will hate me despite me still caring about them. I fear for this day, and that combined with the fear of just being harassed in general by others terrifies me and brings me daily anxiety.

It also makes me sad for other artists; I hate seeing people get hurt, and it seems like every other day some artist gets undue harassment. Seeing these people in pain, I realize I can't do anything; if I were to run to their defense, I'd be attacked too. So I have to stay silent and that feels awful.

The thing is, to backtrack a bit, is that I mostly only see furries doing this. The first forum I ever posted on was MyAnimeList; the anime fandom was my introduction to the internet in a lot of ways. And the anime fandom has very different standards; largely people on MAL don't care about loli/shota artwork. Anime fans tend to find it accepting or at worse just tease each other about it. So when I came to the furry fandom, I was surprised and shocked to see how many people are disturbed by such content. It creates such a dissonance. Like I said, where an artist might be celebrated by anime fans, they'd be deeply criticized by furries. This shift in standards hit me like a brick.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

I don't actually think this is the time to discuss whether paraphilic pornography motivates paraphilic crimes. 

We are under no obligation to permit pornography of underage characters on furry fandom websites, and we all would feel that these spaces have a much more positive culture without it.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> web.archive.org: NCPCA Child Sexual Exploitation Update Newsletter Volume 1, Number 3, 2004
> 
> "Conclusion
> 
> The notion that viewing pornographic depictions of children has no relation to child molestation is without basis. While statistical absolutes are impossible to draw in an arena such as this, evidence from actual investigations and experience tells us it is a small leap from viewing child pornography to molesting children. Individuals who find pleasure in viewing images of children engaged in sexual activities have already violated social norms with their deviant sexual interests. Therefore, it is not a farfetched idea that a viewer of child pornography will emulate the crimes being committed in those images. Possessing child pornography is a red flag to deviant sexual interest in children. Perpetrators should be pursued with vigilance, based on the assumption that where there is child pornography there is child abuse. "


Your article talks about REAL pornography whereas my excerpt talks about depictions.

This is a discussion about depictions and not real porn.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Your article talks about REAL pornography whereas my excerpt talks about depictions.
> 
> This is a discussion about depictions and not real porn.



Cub porn very often features underage characters with bodies that heavily resemble young human children. Sure, it's not real porn, but it's eerily close, I'm not going to just throw my hands up and say. Well! It's just art of an underaged character in the midst of sexual intercourse, so that it a-ok! No, there is a reason to be a bit wary.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Cub porn very often features underage characters with bodies that heavily resemble young human children. Sure, it's not real porn, but it's eerily close, I'm not going to just throw my hands up and say. Well! It's just art of an underaged character in the midst of sexual intercourse, so that it a-ok! No, there is a reason to be a bit wary.


You can have a distaste for it all you want. I can't stand it either.
But I have come forth with evidence that claims that using depictions can actually DECREASE the amount of actual child assaults.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> You can have a distaste for it all you want. I can't stand it either.
> But I have come forth with evidence that claims that using depictions can actually DECREASE the amount of actual child assaults.



What do you hope to achieve with this discussion?


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> No offense, but your feelings have no bearing on what actually happens.
> 
> 
> Prove how it is detrimental.


In my personal experience being raised by a pedophile, being surrounded by that sort of media is very encouraging. It told him that he was normal, justified, and beneficial in his actions towards me.

Seeing media online of children in compromising sexual situations was frightening, confusing, and outraging to me as a child, and as an adult, it can give me anxiety attacks, crying meltdowns, and flashbacks. (My form of trauma caused my memories of the incident to be repressed.)

While I understand vent art, as I myself used to make it, I don't understand posting it online. Seeing the vent art of another person causes me intense distress, personally. Even seeing my own can do that. In my opinion and experience, vent art is something you share with a professional therapist, not the general public (which includes children.)

Pedophilia is such a grievous and vomitous topic, people would rather take in media about mass murder. That is a true testament to how ugly and unwelcome this subject matter is.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> You can have a distaste for it all you want. I can't stand it either.
> But I have come forth with evidence that claims that using depictions can actually DECREASE the amount of actual child assaults.



Not when it's posted publicly and normalized, I disagree. Maybe you can make a case for private commissioning of it, but posting it out in the open for like minded people to flock to, I disagree, that is a bad avenue to go down.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> What do you hope to achieve with this discussion?


A higher collective understanding of psychological disease in an attempt to decrease the amount of societal ills.

I think that's a pretty noble goal.

TLDR: Less child rape.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Cub porn very often features underage characters with bodies that heavily resemble young human children. Sure, it's not real porn, but it's eerily close, I'm not going to just throw my hands up and say. Well! It's just art of an underaged character in the midst of sexual intercourse, so that it a-ok! No, there is a reason to be a bit wary.


It's unacceptable is what it is. Eerie is a very good word to describe it.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> A higher collective understanding of psychological disease in an attempt to decrease the amount of societal ills.
> 
> I think that's a pretty noble goal.
> 
> TLDR: Less child rape.


I share this goal with you.

I've studied quite a bit into pedophiles because I wanted to understand the thought process behind why I was assaulted at the age of four. What leads a person to do such a thing? 

My abuser has passed away, and I am still searching for closure and peace about what happened to me.

It would give me a lot of peace knowing that no other child will have to endure what I've endured my whole life.

While I disagree with your methods of lessening child rape, your goal is indeed noble. I'm glad you're looking into stopping this life-altering atrocity.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Which is a good thing, it makes them less violent in real life, and I am aware the same can be said of people who like cub porn. Though, while video games being openly accepted is something I find good, something I find less stellar is what could happen if Cub porn was openly accepted. I feel it would allow a cultivation of more practicing and open pedophiles within the fandom.


That would be a world I would be wholly uncomfortable living in.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I share this goal with you.
> 
> I've studied quite a bit into pedophiles because I wanted to understand the thought process behind why I was assaulted at the age of four. What leads a person to do such a thing?
> 
> ...


I mean, there's already evidence to suggest that this is a possibly viable path towards preventative measures. It's not a very glamorous thing, sure. But it does appear to work.
If it means the total amount of children getting assaulted decreases, even by 1 child annually, it's worth the effort.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> web.archive.org: NCPCA Child Sexual Exploitation Update Newsletter Volume 1, Number 3, 2004
> 
> "Conclusion
> 
> The notion that viewing pornographic depictions of children has no relation to child molestation is without basis. While statistical absolutes are impossible to draw in an arena such as this, evidence from actual investigations and experience tells us it is a small leap from viewing child pornography to molesting children. Individuals who find pleasure in viewing images of children engaged in sexual activities have already violated social norms with their deviant sexual interests. Therefore, it is not a farfetched idea that a viewer of child pornography will emulate the crimes being committed in those images. Possessing child pornography is a red flag to deviant sexual interest in children. Perpetrators should be pursued with vigilance, based on the assumption that where there is child pornography there is child abuse. "


I can personally attest to this. Child/cub porn is illegal for A REASON.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> A higher collective understanding of psychological disease in an attempt to decrease the amount of societal ills.
> 
> I think that's a pretty noble goal.
> 
> TLDR: Less child rape.



I don't think that you're going to save any children by demanding Kimber debate you.

I think you're talking cross-purposes anyway. Whether or not drawn child pornography has any role in encouraging or relieving paedophiles' desire to harm real children wouldn't really change the fact that none of us what drawn child pornography to be circulating in the furry fandom.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I mean, there's already evidence to suggest that this is a possibly viable path towards preventative measures. It's not a very glamorous thing, sure. But it does appear to work.
> If it means the total amount of children getting assault decreases, even by 1 child annually, it's worth the effort.


As long as this is not the only method of helping these cases. I'm sure you would agree that therapy is necessary?
I would go so far as to include medication and genital surgery, but I understand if you wouldn't be comfortable with that stance.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

>even the person defending such artwork is implying there's a relationship between such art and pedophilia
ugh


Zehlua said:


> cub porn is illegal


Not in the US
Well, for the most part. Obscenity laws get kind of weird and hazy, but even under obscenity, US v. Handley seemed to deem the idea of going after such artwork as obscenity is unconstitutional.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

I couldn't imagine FA being a hub for pedos to jerk it to cub porn and congregate. Good god, what a disaster in the making.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> I don't think that you're going to save any children by demanding Kimber debate you.
> 
> I think you're talking cross-purposes anyway. Whether or not drawn child pornography has any role in encouraging or relieving paedophiles' desire to harm real children wouldn't really change the fact that none of us what drawn child pornography to be circulating in the furry fandom.


You're absolutely right. I do NOT want any underage porn or similar activities in this fandom. Pedophiles and similar scum are not allowed here.


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> I couldn't imagine FA being a hub for pedos to jerk it to cub porn and congregate. Good god, what a disaster in the making.


Have you ever been to Pixiv?


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> As long as this is not the only method of helping these cases. I'm sure you would agree that therapy is necessary?
> I would go so far as to include medication and genital surgery, but I understand if you wouldn't be comfortable with that stance.


Of course. I don't think just handing potential perpetrators drawings, patting them on the back, and sending them on their way would be effective enough.
However, I would only hold genital surgery an option for those where no other option is viable.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> >even the person defending such artwork is implying there's a relationship between such art and pedophilia
> ugh
> Not in the US
> Well, for the most part. Obscenity laws get kind of weird and hazy, but even under obscenity, US v. Handley seemed to deem the idea of going after such artwork as obscenity is unconstitutional.


Child porn is illegal. Please do not misquote me. I put cub at the end because there are pedophiles out there who use that as a euphemism.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> Child porn is illegal. Please do not misquote me. I put cub at the end because there are pedophiles out there who use that as a euphemism.


OH
Genuinely, I apologize then
I didn't understand what you were saying; I've never seen the term cub used to describe anything other than artwork so that...I didn't know that. I'm sorry.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Of course. I don't think just handing potential perpetrators drawings, patting them on the back, and sending them on their way would be effective enough.
> However, I would only hold genital surgery an option for those where no other option is viable.


I agree wholeheartedly. Therapy first, medication later, genital surgery as a last resort, and if problems still persist, the perpetrator needs to be locked up.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. Therapy first, medication later, genital surgery as a last resort, and if problems still persist, the perpetrator needs to be locked up.


This is agreeable.


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## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> OH
> Genuinely, I apologize then
> I didn't understand what you were saying; I've never seen the term cub used to describe anything other than artwork so that...I didn't know that. I'm sorry.


It's quite alright, and thank you so much for the apology.


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> OH
> Genuinely, I apologize then
> I didn't understand what you were saying; I've never seen the term cub used to describe anything other than artwork so that...I didn't know that. I'm sorry.



Using cub porn to indicate irl child porn is simply an incorrect word usage. 
Cub porn =/= child porn 
One's fake, ones real.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

I just realized
OP never posted on this forum before this thread
why would someone come to a furry forum solely to post "I don't wanna be a furry anymore"?


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> Using cub porn to indicate irl child porn is simply an incorrect word usage.
> Cub porn =/= child porn
> One's fake, ones real.


Despite this, pedophiles will still use the word cub to refer to real-life children. I've seen it happen even in benign circumstances.


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So I think the problem here is just that Kothorix is a person selling some very nasty ideas that make people unhappy about themselves.
> 
> Kothorix isn't the sort of man I would recommend you place your trust in. When I pointed out a scientific error to him, in a video he made about climate change, he accused me of being part of a conspiracy to make governments worried about climate change so that scientists could embezzle research money and enrich ourselves.
> 
> ...



I joined his server one time to see what it was like. Was full of shitposters and the debate channel was 100% alt-righters.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> Despite this, pedophiles will still use the word cub to refer to real-life children. I've seen it happen even in benign circumstances.


It's not a funny coincidence that the cubs in the art have a body type that mirrors real human children to a tee.


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## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> Despite this, pedophiles will still use the word cub to refer to real-life children. I've seen it happen even in benign circumstances.



Welp, anything to do sexually with irl children is a complete no. Just no. _here, have the middle finger, Catholic Church_


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Also, let me be perfectly clear. I'm just debating the efficacy of prevention of assault to minors, that's it, not that it should be a larger part of the fandom.
There were claims made that such depictions would increase the amount of assaults to real children and I shared evidence that the opposite may be true.

To be frank, if there were an influx of it here on FA, I would probably leave for an indefinite amount of time. It turns my stomach. I thank the moderation staff on FA from keeping it out as much as possible.
I think if people who enjoy said art want, they can make their own separate community away from the vast majority of people who don't.


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

"cubs have a body type that mirrors real human children to a tee."





Maybe if someone draws like, hyperrealistic artwork.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> "cubs have a body type that mirrors real human children to a tee."
> View attachment 46388



That's anime being anime, and it doesn't change the proportions of the lower body, but ok.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> "cubs have a body type that mirrors real human children to a tee."
> View attachment 46388
> 
> Maybe if someone draws like, hyperrealistic artwork.


The US government has a stipulation against hyper-realistic depictions.


----------



## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Also, let me be perfectly clear. I'm just debating the efficacy of prevention of assault to minors, that's it, not that it should be a larger part of the fandom.
> There were claims made that such depictions would increase the amount of assaults to real children and I shared evidence that the opposite may be true.
> 
> To be frank, if there were an influx of it here on FA, I would probably leave for an indefinite amount of time. It turns my stomach. I thank the moderation staff on FA from keeping it out as much as possible.
> *I think if people who enjoy said art want, they can make their own separate community away from the vast majority of people who don't*.



So I think we should caution against being permissive to online communities of paedophiles, for reasons I hope are *very *obvious.


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So I think we should caution against being permissive to online communities of paedophiles, for reasons I hope are *very *obvious.



Cub porn =/= pedophiles


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> That's anime being anime, and it doesn't change the proportions of the lower body, but ok.


I mean people often exaggerate all sorts of body features on such artwork. Faces are just one example. I realize that example is a bit extreme (cause honestly its pretty bad even by anime standards) but
While such artwork certainly carries some traits found in children, its extremely rare for such artwork to mirror real children. So many little differences, from exaggerated facial features, weird hair/fur colors, a lack of noses, noses being animal snouts, exaggerated hips, unusual proportions, features not present on actual humans in general, overly perfect body features, unusual eyes, unusual stylistic shading, weird coloring, etc.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So I think we should caution against being permissive to online communities of paedophiles, for reasons I hope are *very *obvious.


Due to the evidence presented, hosting real images or realistic depictions of underage people will increase the amount of assault to minors.
Also due to the evidence presented, hosting non-realistic depictions could actually decrease the amount of offenses by up to 50%.

I will, however, change my views if better evidence is presented.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> I mean people often exaggerate all sorts of body features on such artwork. Faces are just one example. I realize that example is a bit extreme (cause honestly its pretty bad even by anime standards) but
> While such artwork certainly carries some traits found in children, its extremely rare for such artwork to mirror real children. So many little differences, from exaggerated facial features, weird hair/fur colors, a lack of noses, noses being animal snouts, exaggerated hips, unusual proportions, features not present on actual humans in general, overly perfect body features, unusual eyes, unusual stylistic shading, weird coloring, etc.



The face in most furry art, or even anime tends to be exaggerated, I agree to that. Though, from what I saw, going by just the normal cub stuff left on furaffinity, the body types, as far as I seen, seem to stay close to what a human child looks like. Granted, this is just from what I seen. Body type though, seems to be a stickler for alot of people when it comes to that. Sure the body type is usually perfectly slim, not very chubby, ect. but I mean, my first impression with that is usually, "Oh, that looks like a child."

I was always hard pressed to really mistake the characters for adults.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Due to the evidence presented, hosting real images or realistic depictions of underage people will increase the amount of assault to minors.
> Also due to the evidence presented, hosting depictions could actually decrease the amount of offenses by up to 50%.
> 
> I will, however change my views if better evidence is presented.




Communities sharing nasty drawings of children on the internet *will *attract actual child molesters. Those child molesters *will* take advantage of those sites to form private networks with other paedophiles. 

If it were ever established that drawn pornography of children could be used to alleviate paedophiles' desire to harm children (and that's a big IF, so big it befits capslock), this would only ever be acceptable in a controlled therapeutic setting. Even then there are significant moral issues that ought not be brushed aside.


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## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Communities sharing nasty drawings of children on the internet *will *attract actual child molesters. Those child molesters *will* take advantage of those sites to form private networks with other paedophiles.
> 
> If it were ever established that drawn pornography of children could be used to alleviate paedophiles' desire to harm children (and that's a big IF, so big it befits capslock), this would only ever be acceptable in a controlled therapeutic setting. Even then there are significant moral issues that ought not be brushed aside.



From what I've read, child porn is easy to find on the dark web and accounts for approximately 75% of traffic there. 

Why would people choose the non-harmful, legal, and safe art to view, if they actually wanted to harm children and didn't care about their safety?


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> From what I've read, child porn is easy to find on the dark web and accounts for approximately 75% of traffic there.
> 
> Why would people choose the non-harmful, legal, and safe art to view, if they actually wanted to harm children and didn't care about their safety?


Indeed. They don't need to network any more than they already have.
Therefore, we need the higher levels of the scientific community to step forward and take a legitimate look into curing the problem.
With the "kill-em-all" rhetoric that is seemingly the dominant one, I can see why we haven't actually fixed the problem at this point in time.
There's been very little demand for advancements in that particular field in psychology/psychiatry


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Indeed. They don't need to network any more than they already have.
> Therefore, we need the higher levels of the scientific community to step forward and take a legitimate look into curing the problem.
> With the "kill-em-all" rhetoric that is seemingly the dominant one, I can see why we haven't actually fixed the problem at this point in time.
> There's been very little demand for advancements in that particular field in psychology/psychiatry



Well, mostly because studying it with the intent to help them wouldn't be popular. People want them either locked up or shot, which isn't very helpful because they won't seek help.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> Well, mostly because studying it with the intent to help them wouldn't be popular. People want them either locked up or shot, which isn't very helpful because they won't seek help.


Wouldn't be the first time barbarism stifled progress.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Indeed. They don't need to network any more than they already have.
> Therefore, we need the higher levels of the scientific community to step forward and take a legitimate look into curing the problem.
> With the "kill-em-all" rhetoric that is seemingly the dominant one, I can see why we haven't actually fixed the problem at this point in time.
> There's been very little demand for advancements in that particular field in psychology/psychiatry



To call it a kill em all mentality is a bit hyperbolic, there is certainly a great deal of disdain for them, but I've never advocated violence towards anybody who liked cub porn. I said that, being how close the body type gets towards real children, that it would be best to keep that sort of art out of the public. 

That doesn't mean I've written off those people, they can still privately commission the 'art' if they so please, and I would highly encourage that such people seek help for their conditions. This isn't hatred so much as, lessening the spread of their condition and preventing any children from potentially becoming the targets of the more perturbed people of that group.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> To call it a kill em all mentality is a bit hyperbolic, there is certainly a great deal of disdain for them, but I've never advocated violence towards anybody who liked cub porn. I said that, being how close the body type gets towards real children, that it would be best to keep that sort of art out of the public.
> 
> That doesn't mean I've written off those people, they can still privately commission the 'art' if they so please, and I would highly encourage that such people seek help for their conditions. This isn't hatred so much as, lessening the spread of their condition and preventing any children from potentially becoming the targets of the more perturbed people of that group.


Much of the time, in modern settings, people who seek help for their affliction to a medical official will be redirected to law enforcement. Not saying it isn't warranted, but it does create a huge level of fear that drives such people underground to allow their dark fantasies to fester unchallenged.

Also, I didn't say that there was that sentimentality here, but in the general populous. Sorry for the misconception.


----------



## Troj (Nov 3, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> This "Furries need to stick together" bullshit is the reason we have this human garbage in the fandom in the first place


 
When drunks or toddlers gang up on a lone fursuiter, or the Daily Mail  or Inside Edition does a cynical smear segment on the fandom, that's the time when furries should stick together. 

Bullies, jerks, trolls, predators, toxic people, chronic fuckups, and violent criminals are exempt from this warm-fuzzy consideration. 

As we've noted before, furries and many other geeks have a tendency to fall hard for the Geek Social Fallacies, and toxic people are all too happy to take advantage of this naivete and/or spinelessness.  

I, too, was angry, disappointed, depressed, and disheartened by this news when it first broke, but I've taken solace in the sheer number of people who've come out against the zoosadist ring and its named members, and in the realization that a group of furries actually banded together to help bring these creeps to justice.

I'm just not looking forward to Kero being on normies' radar, and I'm definitely not looking forward to inevitably being "asked" about him.


----------



## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Much of the time, in modern settings, people who seek help for their affliction to a medical official will be redirected to law enforcement. Not saying it isn't warranted, but it does create a huge level of fear that drives such people underground to allow their dark fantasies to fester unchallenged.


Online communities sharing drawn pornography of children is not the solution to this.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Online communities sharing drawn pornography of children is not the solution to this.


Then what is the solution?


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> The face in most furry art, or even anime tends to be exaggerated, I agree to that. Though, from what I saw, going by just the normal cub stuff left on furaffinity, the body types, as far as I seen, seem to stay close to what a human child looks like. Granted, this is just from what I seen. Body type though, seems to be a stickler for alot of people when it comes to that. Sure the body type is usually perfectly slim, not very chubby, ect. but I mean, my first impression with that is usually, "Oh, that looks like a child."
> 
> I was always hard pressed to really mistake the characters for adults.


That's fair.
From my point of view, I don't really see "children" in the sense that people think of real children in such artwork. Like I can't see a real child in such artwork. 
I see "beings". Fantasy creatures. Things that don't exist. To me the differences between fiction and the real world are important; I dislike the way people focus on similarities.
Hence why it irks me so much when people look at such art as pedophillic. I mean it DOES contain similarities to children, but the differences are important to consider too and make these things not really children. At least, I can't look at such art and see the same thing one might see in an actual child.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Much of the time, in modern settings, people who seek help for their affliction to a medical official will be redirected to law enforcement. Not saying it isn't warranted, but it does create a huge level of fear that drives such people underground to allow their dark fantasies to fester unchallenged.
> 
> Also, I didn't say that there was that sentimentality here, but in the general populous. Sorry for the misconception.



Sure, to that extent, I understand, there should be a way for those people to seek help at the very least. Though as Fallow said, I disagree with the solution presented. The, let cub porn be posted online solution, I strongly disagree with.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Then what is the solution?



So if I point out that 2 and 2 don't make 5, we can agree that's wrong even if we haven't discovered the real answer is 4. 

I don't think I know the answer to this question, because I'm not a sociologist, criminologist or so forth, but this doesn't preclude me from seeing that fostering online communities that share nasty drawings of children is a very bad idea.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Sure, to that extent, I understand, there should be a way for those people to seek help at the very least. Though as Fallow said, I disagree with the solution presented. The, let cub porn be posted online solution, I strongly disagree with.


It's fine to disagree, but I also want to stress that one should also come up with solutions to go with their disagreements.
We can't make change unless we can describe what should, not just what should not.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> So if I point out that 2 and 2 don't make 5, we can agree that's wrong even if we haven't discovered the real answer is 4.
> 
> I don't think I know the answer to this question, because I'm not a sociologist, criminologist or so forth, but this doesn't preclude me from seeing that fostering online communities that share nasty drawings of children is a very bad idea.


That's not how this works.
However, "I don't know" is a perfectly valid response.


----------



## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Jim's been stung by a Jelly fish. 
Sally says you should pee on Jelly fish stings. 

Jim really doesn't want Sally to do that!
But Sally says that if Jim can't think of an alternative, then she's going to do it. 

Pray for Jim.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Jim's been stung by a Jelly fish.
> Sally says you should pee on Jelly fish stings.
> 
> Jim really doesn't want Sally to do that!
> ...



Lmao


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Jim's been stung by a Jelly fish.
> Sally says you should pee on Jelly fish stings.
> 
> Jim really doesn't want Sally to do that!
> ...


Keep coming up with false equivalencies and I will stop responding to you.


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Troj said:


> When drunks or toddlers gang up on a lone fursuiter, or the Daily Mail  or Inside Edition does a cynical smear segment on the fandom, that's the time when furries should stick together.
> 
> Bullies, jerks, trolls, predators, toxic people, chronic fuckups, and violent criminals are exempt from this warm-fuzzy consideration.
> 
> ...



Kero was into some fucked up shit. I couldn't even sleep all night after looking up precise... details, about what he did and was into. 


Fallowfox said:


> So if I point out that 2 and 2 don't make 5, we can agree that's wrong even if we haven't discovered the real answer is 4.
> 
> I don't think I know the answer to this question, because I'm not a sociologist, criminologist or so forth, but this doesn't preclude me from seeing that fostering online communities that share nasty drawings of children is a very bad idea.



I'd tend to agree with that. 

Should we separate drawn human, anthro, and feral porn into different categories tho?


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## Fallowfox (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> Kero was into some fucked up shit. I couldn't even sleep all night after looking up precise... details, about what he did and was into.
> 
> 
> I'd tend to agree with that.
> ...



My personal view is that drawings of children, whether they are humans or furries, should be treated the same. 

Regarding 'feral' art (which for any non-furries unfortunate enough to be reading this discussion, means furry characters which walk on 4 legs), I don't care if somebody is sexually attracted to Smaug from lord of the rings. 
If the 'feral' character represents a wild 'dumb animal', then that's much creepier in my view.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> That's fair.
> From my point of view, I don't really see "children" in the sense that people think of real children in such artwork. Like I can't see a real child in such artwork.
> I see "beings". Fantasy creatures. Things that don't exist. To me the differences between fiction and the real world are important; I dislike the way people focus on similarities.
> Hence why it irks me so much when people look at such art as pedophillic. I mean it DOES contain similarities to children, but the differences are important to consider too and make these things not really children. At least, I can't look at such art and see the same thing one might see in an actual child.



Sure, to an extent it's not a perfect mirror, but the body type is often the same. So subjectively, through my own perspective, it is very child like. It's enough that a few red flags pop up. I don't say it to be mean, or judgmental, I just say it because it concerns me. So while people who view that sort of art personally concern me, I will not treat them like subhumans over it. I am sorry the topic makes you anxious and I apologize if it is difficult for you to discuss, but I feel it'd be worse if I were dishonest to save feelings. I don't mean to come across as massively uncompromising or abrasive, though.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Nov 3, 2018)

I've been ignoring this thread up to this point; TL;DR.. but I will say this : drawn cub is not actual CP; I've said it before on this board over the years, and I'm saying it again here... please stop equating these two seperate things as one and the same.. they aren't. A Furry guy in the community who likes cub - doesn't make him a predator.

Children should be protected, certainly.. but so should artistic expression, at the same time. As far as this Kothorix guy goes.. I've never heard of him.. I'll have to look him up to form an educated opinion. 



Alv said:


> Should we separate drawn human, anthro, and feral porn into different categories tho?


 Most artwork is already fully categorized into seperate parts.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Sure, to an extent it's not a perfect mirror, but the body type is often the same. So subjectively, through my own perspective, it is very child like. It's enough that a few red flags pop up. I don't say it to be mean, or judgmental, I just say it because it concerns me. So while people who view that sort of art personally concern me, I will not treat them like subhumans over it. I am sorry the topic makes you anxious and I apologize if it is difficult for you to discuss, but I feel it'd be worse if I were dishonest to save feelings. I don't mean to come across as massively uncompromising or abrasive, though.


I don't think you are being abrasive.
It is indeed a touchy subject, but one I feel needs to be discussed more.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> I've been ignoring this thread up to this point; TL;DR.. but I will say this : drawn cub is not actual CP; I've said it before on this board over the years, and I'm saying it again here... please stop equating these two seperate things as one and the same.. they aren't. A Furry guy in the community who likes cub - doesn't make him a predator.
> 
> Children should be protected, certainly.. but so should artistic expression, at the same time. As far as this Kothorix guy goes.. I've never heard of him.. I'll have to look him up to form an educated opinion.
> 
> Most artwork is already fully categorized into seperate parts.



Absolutely, cub furries in sexual intercourse with eerily similar body proportion to human children doesn't imply anything meaningful. Sarcasm aside, there are way too many similarities to simply disregard any correlation. Now, I'm not talking about clean cub art, mind you, just cub porn.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Absolutely, cub furries in sexual intercourse with eerily similar body proportion to human children doesn't imply anything meaningful. Sarcasm aside, there are way too many similarities to simply disregard any correlation. Now, I'm not talking about clean cub art, mind you, just cub porn.


You and others can read the first two and last two sentences on my posting here : https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre...uld-count-as-nsfw.1646889/reply?quote=5974850 for my answer to this.. it hasn't changed.

Artwork =/= real life.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> You and others can read the first two and last two sentences on my posting here : https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre...uld-count-as-nsfw.1646889/reply?quote=5974850 for my answer to this.. it hasn't changed.
> 
> Artwork =/= real life.



You and others can read the last few pages of this thread I had debating this.

Sexual artwork == sexual fantasies


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> You and others can read the first two and last two sentences on my posting here : https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre...uld-count-as-nsfw.1646889/reply?quote=5974850 for my answer to this.. it hasn't changed.
> 
> Artwork =/= real life.


He wasn't arguing that, Connor.
For a while, we've just been discussing opinions on the art itself, not equating it to real stuff.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> He wasn't arguing that, Connor.
> For a while, we've just been discussing opinions on the art itself, not equating it to real stuff.



Oh.. okay; as I said, tl;dr...


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Oh.. okay; as I said, tl;dr...


Might want to read then, if you're going to comment on the current topic.


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Might want to read then, if you're going to comment on the current topic.


 That's cool.. I'm eating pretzels right now and waiting for my supper.. and so I chimed in, on this (apparently) very busy thread, just to bide my time.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> That's cool.. I'm eating pretzels right now and waiting for my supper.. and so I chimed in, on this (apparently) very busy thread, just to bide my time.


Forum etiquette is for squares


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> That's cool.. I'm eating pretzels right now and waiting for my supper.. and so I chimed in, on this (apparently) very busy thread, just to bide my time.


It's nice to be aloof, but I recommend at least getting a feel for something before waltzing in.
You might one day mistakenly insert your foot into your mouth instead of a pretzel.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

As long as I'm having a good time, nothing else matters. -Connor


----------



## Connor J. Coyote (Nov 3, 2018)

At nearly 200 replies to this thread - this Kothorix guy must be some dude.. I'll read it all more later, and maybe I'll comment more intelligently then. Bye all. ☺☺☺


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 3, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Sure, to an extent it's not a perfect mirror, but the body type is often the same. So subjectively, through my own perspective, it is very child like. It's enough that a few red flags pop up. I don't say it to be mean, or judgmental, I just say it because it concerns me. So while people who view that sort of art personally concern me, I will not treat them like subhumans over it. I am sorry the topic makes you anxious and I apologize if it is difficult for you to discuss, but I feel it'd be worse if I were dishonest to save feelings. I don't mean to come across as massively uncompromising or abrasive, though.


No, I understand. Honestly if anything I can be kind of uncompromising. I get where you and others come from when you have concerns about such art and the people who like it and as much as I whine I dont think its wrong to be concerned or suspicious with regards to peoples intentions or desires in relation to such art. I appreciate you at least wont assume the worst of people from it. 

I guess it just makes me kinda sad. I wanna be able to enjoy things without people thinking I'm some kind of monster over it and naturally I dont like the idea of people wanting to push away things I or others might enjoy 

Though...To spin this in another direction, perhaps people interested in such art should make visible efforts to show they aren't welcoming towards actual pedophiles. It would likely help alleviate some peoples worries at the very least while helping to push away predators.


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Keep coming up with false equivalencies and I will stop responding to you.





Fallowfox said:


> My personal view is that drawings of children, whether they are humans or furries, should be treated the same.
> 
> Regarding 'feral' art (which for any non-furries unfortunate enough to be reading this discussion, means furry characters which walk on 4 legs), I don't care if somebody is sexually attracted to Smaug from lord of the rings.
> If the 'feral' character represents a wild 'dumb animal', then that's much creepier in my view.



Liking Smaug in a sexual manner isn't a problem. 

Is liking underaged Smaug a problem?


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> Liking Smaug in a sexual manner isn't a problem.
> 
> Is liking underaged Smaug a problem?


I think this is more about subjective opinion than an empirical issue at this point.
I think I've locked down the sciencey bits. (Official term btw)


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I think this is more about subjective opinion than an empirical issue at this point.
> I think I've locked down the sciencey bits. (Official term btw)



I like sciencey explanations!


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> I like sciencey explanations!


*lol ok, then.*


----------



## Alv (Nov 3, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> *lol ok, then.*



That's a lot of reading. I'm too lazy for that.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> No, I understand. Honestly if anything I can be kind of uncompromising. I get where you and others come from when you have concerns about such art and the people who like it and as much as I whine I dont think its wrong to be concerned or suspicious with regards to peoples intentions or desires in relation to such art. I appreciate you at least wont assume the worst of people from it.
> 
> I guess it just makes me kinda sad. I wanna be able to enjoy things without people thinking I'm some kind of monster over it and naturally I dont like the idea of people wanting to push away things I or others might enjoy
> 
> Though...To spin this in another direction, perhaps people interested in such art should make visible efforts to show they aren't welcoming towards actual pedophiles. It would likely help alleviate some peoples worries at the very least while helping to push away predators.



I suppose it might help, and yeah I know that sort of judgment can be difficult. And to make it clear, if you want to privately commission such content, then I guess I can't complain about what I can't see. Though, I retain the stance that posting CP publicly is a bad move on just about every level.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> That's a lot of reading. I'm too lazy for that.


Use a free text to speech program


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 3, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> I just realized
> OP never posted on this forum before this thread
> why would someone come to a furry forum solely to post "I don't wanna be a furry anymore"?



Because he/she/it must be a forum member that created an alt account just to post this without getting the stink eye from other members


----------



## Troj (Nov 3, 2018)

Alv said:


> Kero was into some fucked up shit. I couldn't even sleep all night after looking up precise... details, about what he did and was into.



I didn't even bother because I knew it would do me no good, but foolishly, I briefly skimmed the screencaps between SnakeThing and that other guy--not Kero, the other one who's come to light---talking about grooming children with their cootsy-wootsy OwO bullshit, and I just wanted to cry with rage.

I'm listening to Kothorix's video now. Mainly, I'm struck by the loads and loads of toxic encounters he's apparently had with various types of jerks and freaks (e.g., ravenous zombie horndogs) I've certainly heard about, but have rarely-if-ever had to deal with personally (knock on wood). Does this say something about Kothorix, or me, or both of us?

He's always struck me as an intellectually-bright and well-intentioned person who nonetheless lacks a measure of social-emotional savvy, as evidenced by the times he's seemingly been tricked, jerked around, betrayed, or deceived by other furries, and the times he's expressed tone-deaf and/or rigid and absolutist opinions that have gotten him into hot water.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 3, 2018)

Troj said:


> I didn't even bother because I knew it would do my no good, but foolishly, I briefly skimmed the screencaps between SnakeThing and that other guy--not Kero, the other one who's come to light---talking about grooming children with their cootsy-wootsy OwO bullshit, and I just wanted to cry with rage.
> 
> I'm listening to Kothorix's video, and I'm struck by the sheer number of toxic encounters he's reportedly had with ravenous zombie horndogs and miscellaneous other types of jerks I've rarely-if-ever come across personally (knock on wood). Does this say something about Kothorix, or me, or both of us?
> 
> He's always struck me as an intellectually-bright and well-intentioned person who nonetheless lacks a measure of social-emotional savvy, as evidenced by the times he's seemingly been tricked or deceived by a few furries, and the times he's expressed tone-deaf and/or rigid and absolutist opinions.



I feel like a good majority of his issues stem from him being a furry-centric youtuber. Some of his points have merit. The pedo and zoophilia thing is rampant, to that I agree with him, though, I mentioned before he made a great deal of pedophile and zoophile apologist videos, so I've always personally felt he was always kind of apathetic to that aspect of the fandom.

I also kind of agree with him on the overwhelming group think that goes on in the fandom, but he's out there expressing contentious opinions, and not expecting an emotionally charged response. That's kind of how I felt about most of his points, he's getting this strong dramatic feedback cause he's talking about racey opinions and he happens to have a large following. I feel that colors his perspective alot, especially since a great amount of younger people just tend to watch those channels, who naturally are just not very mature or collected all the time. So he gets surrounded by those younger, and/or immature people, he draws a certain type of furry, and they act in a way that would likely be difficult for him to contend with.

He comes across as lacking a great deal of self awareness. An opinionated person, but not one I'd consider terribly bright, but that's just me. Being a Youtuber isn't for the weak willed or faint hearted, especially when you're pulling yourself into hot button issues and drama.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> It's not a funny coincidence that the cubs in the art have a body type that mirrors real human children to a tee.


Exactly. That shit is very intentional and very scary.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> Communities sharing nasty drawings of children on the internet *will *attract actual child molesters. Those child molesters *will* take advantage of those sites to form private networks with other paedophiles.
> 
> If it were ever established that drawn pornography of children could be used to alleviate paedophiles' desire to harm children (and that's a big IF, so big it befits capslock), this would only ever be acceptable in a controlled therapeutic setting. Even then there are significant moral issues that ought not be brushed aside.


I completely agree.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Cub porn =/= pedophiles


I respectfully disagree here.


----------



## Troj (Nov 4, 2018)

I'm willing to grant that the devil is potentially in the details, as what we _assume_ turns someone on may be very different from the reality. I've had stereotypes and assumptions in the past about various kinks and subcultures that turned out to be wrong, after all.

Even so, sometimes, a cigar's just a cigar, and sometimes, Occam's Razor cuts right to the meat of the matter. Personally, I definitely raise an eyebrow at people who seem to have an "affinity" for cub art and the like.

Tolerance is a virtue, but there's a definite point a which it becomes a vice and the undoing of tolerance itself. There's such a thing as giving too much benefit of the doubt--and yes, it can be tricky to find that exact tipping point sometimes.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I respectfully disagree here.



While stuff like that certainly raises an eyebrow I don't think that

Child like proportions = pedophilia

It's like saying that:

Killing NPCs in videogames = serial killer 
Or
Owning Berserk manga = owning CP pictures


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> While stuff like that certainly raises an eyebrow I don't think that
> 
> Child like proportions = pedophilia
> 
> ...



Not really. Cub porn is being used to sate sexual desires, it has one very distinct and clear purpose. Playing a video game and killing an NPC can be anything from roleplaying to treating the entire game like a massive joke, which is rooted more in entertainment.


----------



## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> I didn't even bother because I knew it would do me no good, but foolishly, I briefly skimmed the screencaps between SnakeThing and that other guy--not Kero, the other one who's come to light---talking about grooming children with their cootsy-wootsy OwO bullshit, and I just wanted to cry with rage.
> 
> I'm listening to Kothorix's video now. Mainly, I'm struck by the loads and loads of toxic encounters he's apparently had with various types of jerks and freaks (e.g., ravenous zombie horndogs) I've certainly heard about, but have rarely-if-ever had to deal with personally (knock on wood). Does this say something about Kothorix, or me, or both of us?
> 
> He's always struck me as an intellectually-bright and well-intentioned person who nonetheless lacks a measure of social-emotional savvy, as evidenced by the times he's seemingly been tricked, jerked around, betrayed, or deceived by other furries, and the times he's expressed tone-deaf and/or rigid and absolutist opinions that have gotten him into hot water.



I am not sure tbh. It's possible he invites a lot of drama due to the nature of his YT page. 



Zehlua said:


> I respectfully disagree here.



Then anyone into anatomically correct yiff is a zoophile, because furries love drawing dog cocks on all their anthropomorphic furries.


----------



## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> treating the entire game like a massive joke, which is rooted more in entertainment.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Not really. Cub porn is being used to sate sexual desires, it has one very distinct and clear purpose. Playing a video game and killing an NPC can be anything from roleplaying to treating the entire game like a massive joke, which is rooted more in entertainment.



In that case the FBI should do a honeypot operation on r34/e621, lots of zoophiles and pedophiles in there, specially under the pokemon tag

Edit: forgot to add a "gotta catch 'em all"  joke


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> In that case the FBI should do a honeypot operation on r34/e621, lots of zoophiles and pedophiles in there, specially under the pokemon tag



Or even Ink Bunny.


----------



## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Sorry, I don't think the FBI generally cares about young, immature furries drawing freaky pornographic art.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Sorry, I don't think the FBI generally cares about young, immature furries drawing freaky pornographic art.


They have more important shit to worry about in 2018.


----------



## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Sorry, I don't think the FBI generally cares about young, immature furries drawing freaky pornographic art.


It was a tongue-in-cheek comment. lol


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> In that case the FBI should do a honeypot operation on r34/e621, lots of zoophiles and pedophiles in there, specially under the pokemon tag
> 
> Edit: forgot to add a "gotta catch 'em all"  joke



Cause liking cub porn is not at all indicative of your desires. Says nothing about the intent of the person who likes that stuff! We should bring all those people together for a nice party at Chuck E Cheese. They seem like swell guys and I think it'll go well. Disregard all the sleazy looks they give to the kids passing by, they're just irritated by the claustrophobic atmosphere.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Cause liking cub porn is not at all indicative of your desires. Says nothing about the intent of the person who likes that stuff! We should bring all those people together for a nice party at Chuck E Cheese. They seem like swell guys and I think it'll go well.



Bringing Latent pedophiles to a place full of kids, may not be the brightest idea and proves nothing.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Bringing Latent pedophiles to a place full of kids, may not be the brightest idea and proves nothing.


Poe's law is a cruel mistress at times.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Poe's law is a cruel mistress at times.



It'd be like bringing a 4 year old to a candy shop and leaving them there telling them "no candy".

People who hurt others expressly Children, have mental issues. just like 4 year olds.


----------



## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Then anyone into anatomically correct yiff is a zoophile, because furries love drawing dog cocks on all their anthropomorphic furries.



I don't intent to cause further controversy and this is 100% personal, but it has honestly always weirded me out a little that so many in the fandom find animal genitalia arousing.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf said:


> I don't intent to cause further controversy and this is 100% personal, but it has honestly always weirded me out a little that so many in the fandom find animal genitalia arousing.



Im probably on the other side of this, if you are anthropomorphic animal, All anatomy should be correct, otherwise a human penis on a.... Wolf would be strange. it'd also be irritated by all the dryness of a fur'd body. thats what the sheath does, it moisturizes Animals Genitals.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Cause liking cub porn is not at all indicative of your desires. Says nothing about the intent of the person who likes that stuff! We should bring all those people together for a nice party at Chuck E Cheese. They seem like swell guys and I think it'll go well. Disregard all the sleazy looks they give to the kids passing by, they're just irritated by the claustrophobic atmosphere.




Cause liking yiff porn is not at all indicative of your desires. Says nothing about the intent of the person who likes that stuff! We should bring all those people together for a nice party at the zoo. They seem like swell guys and I think it'll go well. Disregard all the sleazy looks they give to the wolfs/horses/birds/gorillas/foxes passing by, they're just irritated by the claustrophobic atmosphere.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Cause liking yiff porn is not at all indicative of your desires. Says nothing about the intent of the person who likes that stuff! We should bring all those people together for a nice party at the zoo. They seem like swell guys and I think it'll go well. Disregard all the sleazy looks they give to the wolfs/horses/birds/gorillas/foxes passing by, they're just irritated by the claustrophobic atmosphere.



Honestly Crooked i think the two analogy are completely different. Yiff is the love of Anthropomorphic animals, a zoo Would'nt do it for people who like it.

but Latent Pedophiles, that go to a place full of the things they like... its a highly guarded place though, so the most that would happen is a latent pedo would just chat to a child.


----------



## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Im probably on the other side of this, if you are anthropomorphic animal, All anatomy should be correct, otherwise a human penis on a.... Wolf would be strange. it'd also be irritated by all the dryness of a fur'd body. thats what the sheath does, it moisturizes Animals Genitals.



I on the other hand usually tend to see furry characters more as humans with animal features than vice versa, but I guess that's a matter of subjective perception/opinion.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Cause liking yiff porn is not at all indicative of your desires. Says nothing about the intent of the person who likes that stuff! We should bring all those people together for a nice party at the zoo. They seem like swell guys and I think it'll go well. Disregard all the sleazy looks they give to the wolfs/horses/birds/gorillas/foxes passing by, they're just irritated by the claustrophobic atmosphere.



Higher cognition is hard, I know! Distinguishing between characters with child like bodies and adult anthropomorphic characters is too much a stretch.  Instead I am going to directly copy the format of somebody else's joke and replace it with anthropomorphic characters. Man, I sure am a sagacious champion of wit.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf said:


> I on the other hand usually tend to see furry characters more as humans with animal features than vice versa, but I guess that's a matter of subjective perception/opinion.


ye it is highly Opinionated, but for me its also Science, A human penis would just... shrivel up and die on a fur'd body.
Fur Follicles cannot secrete Sweat. so two things MIGHT happen.

1: The Penis Would by default Also not have sweat glands, shrivel up, dry out and get infected withen weeks of being born
2: Be A himan penis, but also be the only place on the body that sweats, causing all furs to need pads for all that sweat, OH BOY would there be alot! POOLS AND POOLS!



KimberVaile said:


> Higher cognition is hard, I know! Distinguishing between characters with child like bodies and adult anthropomorphic characters is too much a stretch.  Instead I am going to directly copy the format of somebody else's joke and replace it with anthropomorphic characters. Man, I sure am a sagacious champion of wit.



I also gave him a bit of crap for his post. Lul.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Higher cognition is hard, I know! Distinguishing between characters with child like bodies and adult anthropomorphic characters is too much a stretch.  Instead I am going to directly copy the format of somebody else's joke and replace it with anthropomorphic characters. Man, I sure am a champion of wit.



Yeah sure, it's not like people watch furry porn because of the animalistic traits


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Yeah sure, it's not like people watch furry porn because of the animalistic traits



Animalistic =/= Animals

I'm Guessing you also think Liking traps is gay.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Yeah sure, it's not like people watch furry porn because of the animalistic traits


Lol. Are you forgetting the fact that the anthropomorphic characters have largely human physiques and have the ability to consent? Not to mention they are usually adult. The amount of time furry artists spend on perfecting the human physique in their art should make it evident that it's removed from actual animals in a myriad of ways.


----------



## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Nov 4, 2018)

Not this dilemma again


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Are you forgetting the fact that the anthropomorphic characters have largely human physiques and have the ability to consent?



They still have animal-like features lol


----------



## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Im probably on the other side of this, if you are anthropomorphic animal, All anatomy should be correct, otherwise a human penis on a.... Wolf would be strange. it'd also be irritated by all the dryness of a fur'd body. thats what the sheath does, it moisturizes Animals Genitals.



Human foreskin is kind of a sheath too, though.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> They still have animal-like features lol


My rifle has a bayonet on it, it has Musket-like features, must mean that I want to buy a musket now. GG you got me


----------



## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Human foreskin is kind of a sheath too, though.



Item: Foreskin  
Rarity: Mastercraft  
+11% HP
+8% Stamina  
+50 Sensitivity  
+10 Cold Resistance  

Active effect:
Upon activation your peepee gets bigger


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Human foreskin is kind of a sheath too, though.


"Kind of" not really, a 4skin hides the head of a human mans penis, while a sheath hides the entire thing.
The 4skin is rich in nerve endings. so many! other than that, there is no benefit to having one or not on a human body.
While a sheath... has no nerve endings, and has a tonne of sweat glands inside it that secrete a special sweat like liquid to lubricate the entire
thing, for whenever it needs to be used.


----------



## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> "Kind of" not really, a 4skin hides the head of a human mans penis, while a sheath hides the entire thing.
> The 4skin is rich in nerve endings. so many! other than that, there is no benefit to having one or not on a human body.
> While a sheath... has no nerve endings, and has a tonne of sweat glands inside it that secrete a special sweat like liquid to lubricate the entire
> thing, for whenever it needs to be used.



It's no secret that most furries that like yiff also like sheaths. They're so much fancier than human junk.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> It's no secret that most furries that like yiff also like sheaths. They're so much fancier than human junk.


it just looks better and correct. so fancier is probably correct lul


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

This is what the thread topic is now, human penises and sheaths. I apologize for my part in letting the thread derail, but I mean, it's kind of funny when you think about it.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> This is what the thread topic is now, human penises and sheaths. I apologize for my part in letting the thread derail, but I mean, it's kind of funny when you think about it.


this is what happens when you let a lewd artist join in, in conversations.


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. Therapy first, medication later, genital surgery as a last resort, and if problems still persist, the perpetrator needs to be locked up.


In this, I agree to disagree with you.
Repeat offenders of heinous crimes like pedophilia need to be executed and removed from society.  That is the only 'Cure' for their ailment, and the only way to ensure they will never, ever, repeat said crimes in the future.
I'll weigh the safety of a child, over the thrown-away 'Rights' of a repeatedly convicted/caught pedophile, ANY day.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> In this, I agree to disagree with you.
> Repeat offenders of heinous crimes like pedophilia need to be executed and removed from society.  That is the only 'Cure' for their ailment, and the only way to ensure they will never, ever, repeat said crimes in the future.
> I'll weigh the safety of a child, over the thrown-away 'Rights' of a repeatedly convicted/caught pedophile, ANY day.



Thats a really heavy topic, that sure to rustle some jimmies.


----------



## idkthough120 (Nov 4, 2018)

wow this spread to 10 pages. 

_great validity here_


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

whyt31 said:


> wow this spread to 10 pages.
> 
> _great validity here_


4 of these pages are talking about animal & human penis's though.


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Thats a really heavy topic, that sure to rustle some jimmies.


I am able to separate 'Fantasy/Art/Dialogue (aka: chat),' with real-life incidents of real people (and where it applies, animals), being sexually exploited and harmed.

If those who can't maintain that line of reality vs fantasy wish to have their jimmies rustled?  

They probably enjoy it.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> I am able to separate 'Fantasy/Art/Dialogue (aka: chat),' with real-life incidents of real people (and where it applies, animals), being sexually exploited and harmed.
> 
> If those who can't maintain that line of reality vs fantasy wish to have their jimmies rustled?
> 
> They probably enjoy it.



i mean more of a political way... death sentances are a very heavy subject


----------



## Meikiron (Nov 4, 2018)

Found this online, what'd'y'all gotta say about it


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> In this, I agree to disagree with you.
> Repeat offenders of heinous crimes like pedophilia need to be executed and removed from society.  That is the only 'Cure' for their ailment, and the only way to ensure they will never, ever, repeat said crimes in the future.
> I'll weigh the safety of a child, over the thrown-away 'Rights' of a repeatedly convicted/caught pedophile, ANY day.


I agree when it comes to repeat offenders.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Thats a really heavy topic, that sure to rustle some jimmies.


Not mine. I was sexually assaulted starting at age four. By all means, round up them up and do whatever is necessary to end their reigns of terror.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> Not mine. I was sexually assaulted starting at age four. By all means, round up them up and do whatever is necessary to end their reigns of terror.



I was Full on raped at about age 6. went to court about it and everything. but like, Death penalty is a bit much.


----------



## angelcrush (Nov 4, 2018)

It makes me hesitant to be in the furry community.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

angelcrush said:


> It makes me hesitant to be in the furry community.



i'd read more posts, Koth's Video is full of fabrications & personal feelings.

Nothing to take for real.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> I am not sure tbh. It's possible he invites a lot of drama due to the nature of his YT page.
> 
> 
> 
> Then anyone into anatomically correct yiff is a zoophile, because furries love drawing dog cocks on all their anthropomorphic furries.


I actually agree here. Why are we drawing realistic animals having sex? It's different if it's an anthro animal with human characteristics, because they're expressly sapient and can provide enthusiastic consent. As for animal dongles, I personally don't care as long as it's attached to a consenting being.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> I was Full on raped at about age 6. went to court about it and everything. but like, Death penalty is a bit much.


I agree, but this is referring to repeat offenders. The death penalty is an absolute last resort.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I actually agree here. Why are we drawing realistic animals having sex? It's different if it's an anthro animal with human characteristics, because they're expressly sapient and can provide enthusiastic consent. As for animal dongles, I personally don't care as long as it's attached to a consenting being.



I mean, that is the only thing that makes Zoophilia Taboo and illegal. is consent. as soon as something *CAN *Consent its no longer illegal.


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> I mean, that is the only thing that makes Zoophilia Taboo and illegal. is consent. as soon as something *CAN *Consent its no longer illegal.


To clarify; I define consent as consistent, enthusiastic, and given without force. If animals could think like us and talk to us (or at least nod for "yes") then this would be a much different conversation. It's also not fair and highly unethical to use a position of power for sexual gratification with no consideration for those of "lesser" status.
When it comes to children, yes they can provide a verbal "yes," but the problem is that there's a very obvious power imbalance between an adult and a child. A child does not have the mental, physical, and emotional maturity to handle having sex, especially with an adult. For me personally, the results of my sexual encounters with older parties were disastrous, with very serious long-term health problems that I'm still dealing with over 20 years later.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> To clarify; I define consent as consistent, enthusiastic, and given without force. If animals could think like us and talk to us (or at least nod for "yes") then this would be a much different conversation. It's also not fair and highly unethical to use a position of power for sexual gratification with no consideration for those of "lesser" status.
> When it comes to children, yes they can provide a verbal "yes," but the problem is that there's a very obvious power imbalance between an adult and a child. A child does not have the mental, physical, and emotional maturity to handle having sex, especially with an adult. For me personally, the results of my sexual encounters with older parties were disastrous, with very serious long-term health problems that I'm still dealing with over 20 years later.



i have no objections to that, i agree.


----------



## Deleted member 111470 (Nov 4, 2018)

Well, it's not like he's wrong about the things he talks in the vid.

The furry fandom is kinda horrible.


----------



## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Rimna said:


> Well, it's not like he's wrong about the things he talks in the vid.
> 
> The furry fandom is kinda horrible.



He is very wrong. He used incorrect Graphs from 8+ years ago.
said a majority is EITHER a zoophile or pedophile with little to no evidence.

he talks about how he was treated, by him nosing himself into drama....

his entire video is skewed.


----------



## TrishaCat (Nov 4, 2018)

Meikiron said:


> Found this online, what'd'y'all gotta say about it


Two things:
First, a lot of people liking something isnt the same as that being what it's about. Yes, a lot of furries like furry porn. What bugs me about this image's implication is that theres A LOT of SFW furry art. If the general definition of "furry" is a fan of anthropomorphic animals, then at it's very basis, furry doesnt imply anything sexual, correct? Of course, a lot of furries like porn, but does this mean those same people that like porn dislike SFW artwork? It's not fair to imply people liking porn means porn is why they're here. The porn for many is more of a bonus than the primary draw.

As for the second, the image implies that the highest search for furry porn is in the state with the most bestiality practitioners, however it does this by using laws rather than incidents of such. Laws generally form because something is a problem and they're necessary; I'm not saying its necessarily the case, but wouldn't that imply that there haven't been many incidents in such states and that's why there are no laws? Either way, the implication that a lack of laws means a lot of people are doing it is poor.


----------



## Astus (Nov 4, 2018)

Heckkkk we should like totally disband the furry fandom if all of this stuff is true :O then there will be no more of that stuff... Right? I mean it's not like people would keep doing that stuff without the fandom.

And don't forget, sex is primarily a furry thing! Because that's why the human population is in the billions, because there are so many furries out there :O normal people don't look up kinky porn stuff or do weird sexual things, nope not at all.


----------



## idkthough120 (Nov 4, 2018)

I only look up reliable stuff, but not that. 


Astusthefox said:


> Heckkkk we should like totally disband the furry fandom if all of this stuff is true :O then there will be no more of that stuff... Right? I mean it's not like people would keep doing that stuff without the fandom.
> 
> And don't forget, sex is primarily a furry thing! Because that's why the human population is in the billions, because there are so many furries out there :O normal people don't look up kinky porn stuff or do werid sexual things, nope not at all.


----------



## Yakamaru (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> When drunks or toddlers gang up on a lone fursuiter, or the Daily Mail or Inside Edition does a cynical smear segment on the fandom, that's the time when furries should stick together.
> 
> Bullies, jerks, trolls, predators, toxic people, chronic fuckups, and violent criminals are exempt from this warm-fuzzy consideration.
> 
> ...


Have I ever told you that getting a like from you and/or Saiko feels like a god damn badge of honor? <3

Anyways, back on-topic..

It will depend on the context of the situation. 
Are we talking about a bunch of kids going "AMMAGAWDAFURSUITIMUSTTOUCHITSODAMNCUTE!"? I'd call that harmless. 
Bunch of drunkards attacking someone? Yeah, no. I will defend the person being attacked. Not because they are a Furry, but because it's a pathetic excuse for human behaviour to gang up on someone, and is not acceptable by any standard. 

Daily Mail and/or Inside Edition(haven't heard of the latter one until you mentioned it) trying to do a smear? Well, it only means they have something they actually can use to smear the fandom with. 
Kero being a prime example of something they can use. Too much tolerance ends up in people like this abusing that tolerance, and you have put yourself in a bit of a fickle. Because how do you untangle yourself from the web you yourself created and ended up being stuck in? The solution is simple in this case: Don't create a web in the first place. Have clear standards for your tolerance and stick by them.

I'm against call out culture as I find the whole idea of it cancerous and toxic as hell, but in some cases it needs to be done. Note that I am for call out culture when someone's already exposed themselves, not actively finding people and basically having it be a witch hunt. I am vehemently against witch hunts of all kinds.

Quite frankly Kero is but one of many individuals in the fandom that IMHO needs to be addressed and "kicked out", so to speak. Have people disassociate themselves with such individuals and call them out if need be, but not to root them out and chase. 



Astusthefox said:


> Heckkkk we should like totally disband the furry fandom if all of this stuff is true :O then there will be no more of that stuff... Right? I mean it's not like people would keep doing that stuff without the fandom.
> 
> And don't forget, sex is primarily a furry thing! Because that's why the human population is in the billions, because there are so many furries out there :O normal people don't look up kinky porn stuff or do werid sexual things, nope not at all.


People need tolerance standards and stand by them. Inconsistent standards will end up with you getting stuck in a web of your own making.


----------



## idkthough120 (Nov 4, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Have I ever told you that getting a like from you and/or Saiko feels like a god damn badge of honor? <3
> 
> Anyways, back on-topic..
> 
> ...


Y-you speak so much truth... i can't even express how i feel...


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## Astus (Nov 4, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> People need tolerance standards and stand by them. Inconsistent standards will end up with you getting stuck in a web of your own making.



Of course :O it goes without saying that people should behave themselves to some extent. However I don't see the furry fandom as anything more than a bunch of regular people together in one place. People start drama, people are into weird sexual things; it's just that in the fandom people are more open about it share it with more people. 

That right there is the blessing and curse of the fandom. People are more open and can be themselves without much fear of being criticized; which can mentally help people who are forced to wear a mask throughout the day and with family. But at the same time, what they're doing may not be so healthy for them and may impede upon social norms that help keep society in tact. It's a double edged sword and it sucks that people can't just think a bit before they do something... But that's just people I guess. When they get a taste of freedom, they consume it all.


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> When drunks or toddlers gang up on a lone fursuiter, or the Daily Mail or Inside Edition does a cynical smear segment on the fandom, that's the time when furries should stick together.
> 
> Bullies, jerks, trolls, predators, toxic people, chronic fuckups, and violent criminals are exempt from this warm-fuzzy consideration.


I mean, I don't think a bully in a fursuit being mobbed by drunks should be left to fend for himself?
Just to be clear. People who do bad things should not be protected/shielded from the consequences of their actions by other furries because they happen to be furries. But I'm not convinced that saying "eh, they're a jerk, IDGAF" if they're getting shit they in no way started or provoked is a good idea. That just means certain people get designated as acceptable targets. We already have a situation where certain segments of the fandom are blind to their own usage of bully tactics to target "bad" people.

(Which isn't to say any individual has a duty to step up to stick up for the bully, just that giving some consideration to why they're currently targeted may be warranted before writing their plight off, and I'm not comfortable with declaring someone not deserving of sympathy across the board.)


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## Simo (Nov 4, 2018)

It is odd, to me, that furries watch this guy, and that ranting griffon, all them. I could give a shit about them; never understood the whole popufur thing.


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## Yakamaru (Nov 4, 2018)

Astusthefox said:


> Of course :O it goes without saying that people should behave themselves to some extent. However I don't see the furry fandom as anything more than a bunch of regular people together in one place. People start drama, people are into weird sexual things; it's just that in the fandom people are more open about it share it with more people.
> 
> That right there is the blessing and curse of the fandom. People are more open and can be themselves without much fear of being criticized; which can mentally help people who are forced to wear a mask throughout the day and with family. But at the same time, what they're doing may not be so healthy for them and may impede upon social norms that help keep society in tact. It's a double edged sword and it sucks that people can't just think a bit before they do something... But that's just people I guess. When they get a taste of freedom, they consume it all.


Some people don't know how to handle the freedom they have been given, and thus end up playing with fire that they don't understand is hot.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Some people don't know how to handle the freedom they have been given, and thus end up playing with fire that they don't understand is hot.


Maybe some day I'll do a video series on the psychology books I've read relating to proper socialization


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Sexual artwork == sexual fantasies


That's a dangerous equivalence to make without qualifications; while the words may to a large extent be strictly true, the implications ("sexual fantasy" generally being parsed as "the person who thought this up finds it arousing", not "a made-up situation with sexual elements") make it iffy as hell.
I know there are artists who will only draw their own kinks. There are also plenty who will draw stuff they're not into.
There are also people who will view porn they're not specifically into for artistic merit or aesthetics alone.

It's also disregarding the manner in which the artwork is consumed. This goes for all contentious kinks, not just cub (which I'm not interested in debating). Given that, I'm going to use non-con as an example:
I've seen the argument that people who produce and/or consume non-con art are all rapists in the making. That's making the assumption that the viewer/artist/fantasizer puts themselves in the perpetrator's role. Purely anecdotally, I can say that from my observations it appears that pretty much all the people who seek this art out are actually putting themselves in the victim's role. To say that consuming or creating this art makes those people more likely to perpetrate rape is clearly ludicrous - they aren't fictionally "practicing" being the victimizer, so why would enjoying their fantasy make them more likely to become one?



MiroTheFox said:


> Fur Follicles cannot secrete Sweat. so two things MIGHT happen.


By that logic, horses shouldn't have sheaths. Because let me tell you, horses sure do sweat! 
Evolution. It finds "good enough" solutions and stops looking. Doesn't mean those are the _only_ solutions.



Yakamaru said:


> Are we talking about a bunch of kids going "AMMAGAWDAFURSUITIMUSTTOUCHITSODAMNCUTE!"? I'd call that harmless.


Fursuiters have limited vision and impaired manipulation ability, and the suits can be damaged by kids pulling the fur without malicious intent. Helping a fursuiter manage a mob of small humans is a matter of safety for both the kids and the suiter. There's also small children who will interact with suits by e.g. pulling their tails or hitting them, either out of borderline malice or much like how leaving kids alone with pets is not a great idea because cats' and dogs' tails may end up getting pulled.


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> That's a dangerous equivalence to make without qualifications; while the words may to a large extent be strictly true, the implications ("sexual fantasy" generally being parsed as "the person who thought this up finds it arousing", not "a made-up situation with sexual elements") make it iffy as hell.
> I know there are artists who will only draw their own kinks. There are also plenty who will draw stuff they're not into.
> There are also people who will view porn they're not specifically into for artistic merit or aesthetics alone.
> 
> ...



Horses are a bit of an odd ball, but very different kind of sheath. its more for holding, horses penis's are pretty close to human penis's meaning they do sweat and for that you need to clean the sheath out.
lots of gunk and diseases can happen otherwise. but the difference between other animals sheaths and horses sheaths are like comparing Lizard's Cloaca to a human penis. very very different. put a horse sheath on lets say a dog, and the same thing will happen to that dogs penis that would happen to a humans penis on a dog, the penis would shrivel up. or get super swampy.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Nov 4, 2018)

*WHO?....* *looks up Youtube* *sigh* Any community has crappy members and we need to be aware that regardless of any fandom that there are going to be deplorable humans that exploit others for whatever reason. I am not saying we should be paranoid about everyone we meet in the fandom but just keeping eye on suspicious and manipulative behavior. That being said I notice that staying out of the sexual 
role playing a lot of the drama is nullified. Besides the artwork I do is completely SFW and is mainly just something fun to do in my spare time.


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## Yakamaru (Nov 4, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Fursuiters have limited vision and impaired manipulation ability, and the suits can be damaged by kids pulling the fur without malicious intent. Helping a fursuiter manage a mob of small humans is a matter of safety for both the kids and the suiter. There's also small children who will interact with suits by e.g. pulling their tails or hitting them, either out of borderline malice or much like how leaving kids alone with pets is not a great idea because cats' and dogs' tails may end up getting pulled.


I wasn't told of this line of context. In that case, I agree. Even if it's not malicious it can cause damage to the fursuit, yes.


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## Simo (Nov 4, 2018)

.....and another new thread, by a new user, with few posts, and no profile information. What is this, that all the most controversial/baity threads get started by such users? Coincidence? Nah.............


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## ZeroVoidTime (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> .....and another new thread, by a new user, with few posts, and no profile information. What is this, that all the most controversial/baity threads get started by such users? Coincidence? Nah.............


Right now I am thinking of a quote from TV Tropes on the Furry Fandom under the Real Life / Serious Business - TV Tropes trope!


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## Fallowfox (Nov 4, 2018)

My conclusion is that you all need Jesus, by the way.



Alv said:


> Liking Smaug in a sexual manner isn't a problem.
> 
> Is liking underaged Smaug a problem?


*
YES. *

Holy Jerbus Cristus of Nazabutts, guys.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Nov 4, 2018)

I do agree with Kothorix on some of the attention seeking fursuits he demonstrated as being very tacky. (Personally in my opinion some of the fursuits he demonstrated would be fashionable with The Hunger Games Capitol residents. NO SERIOUSLY!)


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> It is odd, to me, that furries watch this guy, and that ranting griffon, all them. I could give a shit about them; never understood the whole popufur thing.


Careful now, Simo.
Kothorix and '2Gryphon', aren't bad people (IMHO, of course).  Do I like or agree with everything they say?  Nope.  Do I enjoy most of what they've said/done/shown in their Youtube channels?  HELL yeah!
I'm sardonic enough, and willing to dive into controversial topics like a starving squirrel rummaging around a mountain of nuts  (doesn't THAT provide some NSFW mental imagery for the Furries!?  my job is now done.  :: Smug faice... :: ), to appreciate their presentations.

I think Kothorix is simply burnt-out.  He's tried to show both sides of many issues and done a damned good job of doing it.  I think his effort to mediate the 'Kero (and affiliated people)', back-firing on him (meaning what Kero 'And affiliated people' were shown to be overwhelmingly true or damnably suspicious).  His anger, frustration, vitriol is clear to anyone paying any amount of attention to his Youtube post.

Hey, I've gotten that pissed-off and abandoned participation to a few groups.  Folks have a limit to the degree of BS they're going to take (unless they're truly masochistic?).

I don't think badly of Kothorix.  I will miss his Furry posts, but hell, he's a Free Agent.  He can leave whenever he wants.


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## Shadow of Bucephalus (Nov 4, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> My conclusion is that you all need Jesus, by the way.
> 
> 
> *
> ...



Now I want a Chibi-Smaug Plushie... ('cause, my other plushies need some srs tyrannical oversight!)

((I am such a sick, sick puppy...  Uh, horsieh...  yeah.  Equine... ))


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## Fallowfox (Nov 4, 2018)

If you're _going _to march to the beat of the drum of Popufurs, why not Majira Strawbs, Mangusu, Dash Tiger or Cosmic Wuffy?

Choose people who are actually _nice_ and make videos about nice things... rather than videos made by people attending trump rallies, defending drawn child pornography or doing talk shows with Len Gilbert. :S


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## ZeroVoidTime (Nov 4, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> If you're _going _to march to the beat of the drum of Popufurs, why not Majira Strawbs, Mangusu, Dash Tiger or Cosmic Wuffy?
> 
> Choose people who are actually _nice_ and make videos about nice things... rather than videos made by people attending trump rallies, defending drawn child pornography or doing talk shows with Len Gilbert. :S


I think I heard of Majira from other posts on this forum. The rest of the users you mention I do not know of..... :S (Besides this thread reminds me of a post on a thread created by a news reporter asking about incident within the fandom. The reply was pretty accurate on the fact that the Furry Fandom members do not know every other members within the fandom. This fandom like any other fandom is broken into groups that do there own thing.)


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## Fallowfox (Nov 4, 2018)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> I think I heard of Majira from other posts on this forum. The rest of the users you mention I do not know of..... :S (Besides this thread reminds me of a post on a thread created by a news reporter asking about incident within the fandom. The reply was pretty accurate on the fact that the Furry Fandom members do not know every other members within the fandom. This fandom like any other fandom is broken into groups that do there own thing.)



Dash Tiger is an actual Tiger biologist with published research. 
He's Married to Mangusu. 





Cosmic Wuffy is from England (relatively near to me actually, but I've never met him)


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## Filter (Nov 4, 2018)

I agree with some of what he says in this video. However, I don't knowingly associate with people who abuse animals, hang out with anyone who tries to have sex with minors, or do any number of other things that I find reprehensible. The fandom is enormous, it's diverse, and that stuff is avoidable. It almost sounds to me like he actively sought the things he's railing against. They simply aren't things that I encounter very often if at all. I mean, I don't exist in a vacuum. I read the same things you guys read online. Like this thread, for instance, or his video. The thing is, that's the extent of it. Then again I'm over 30, and even when I was under 30 I didn't get close to the more immature elements of the fandom, so my experience may not be comparable to his.

That being said, if Kothorix can't participate in the fandom on his own terms, then perhaps he should avoid it altogether. Kind of like someone who can't enjoy raves without abusing ecstasy. In which case, removing one's self from the situation makes a lot of sense.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Nov 4, 2018)

Filter said:


> I agree with some of what he says in this video. However, I don't knowingly associate with people who abuse animals, hang out with anyone who tries to have sex with minors, or do any number of other things that I find reprehensible. The fandom is enormous, it's diverse, and that stuff is avoidable. It almost sounds to me like he actively sought the things he's railing against. They simply aren't things that I encounter very often if at all. I mean, I don't exist in a vacuum. I read the same things you guys read online. Like this thread, for instance, or his video. The thing is, that's the extent of it. Then again I'm over 30, and even when I was under 30 I didn't get close to the more immature elements of the fandom, so my experience may not be comparable to his.
> 
> That being said, if Kothorix can't participate in the fandom on his own terms, then perhaps he should avoid it altogether. Kind of like someone who can't enjoy raves without abusing ecstasy. In which case, removing one's self from the situation makes a lot of sense.


That is exactly what I have been saying...... ._.
At least FallowFox has been paying attention to me.......
Well except the last part which I do agree with you.


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## Faexie (Nov 4, 2018)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> At nearly 200 replies to this thread - this Kothorix guy must be some dude.. I'll read it all more later, and maybe I'll comment more intelligently then. Bye all. ☺☺☺


The thread derailed from being about kothorix to being about the validity of fictional child pornography as a therapeutic outlet for pedophiles (mainly cub art, but I think fictional human child porn is on the same level tbh. No matter the species, they're still children after all)


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## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> To clarify; I define consent as consistent, enthusiastic, and given without force. If animals could think like us and talk to us (or at least nod for "yes") then this would be a much different conversation. It's also not fair and highly unethical to use a position of power for sexual gratification with no consideration for those of "lesser" status.
> When it comes to children, yes they can provide a verbal "yes," but the problem is that there's a very obvious power imbalance between an adult and a child. A child does not have the mental, physical, and emotional maturity to handle having sex, especially with an adult. For me personally, the results of my sexual encounters with older parties were disastrous, with very serious long-term health problems that I'm still dealing with over 20 years later.



Really sorry to hear about that. Engaging a minor, as an adult, in sexually explicit situations for personal gratification is a tremendously bad idea. Adults need to be responsible with their authority and higher understanding of sexuality. 

Although often there is no better understanding, otherwise they wouldn't take advantage of a younger person. 


Zehlua said:


> I actually agree here. Why are we drawing realistic animals having sex? It's different if it's an anthro animal with human characteristics, because they're expressly sapient and can provide enthusiastic consent. As for animal dongles, I personally don't care as long as it's attached to a consenting being.



Well... you can also draw non-con art, of adult characters, which happens to give me the jivvies.


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## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> My conclusion is that you all need Jesus, by the way.
> 
> 
> *
> ...



I don't really see how. It's still a completely fictional character. 

What I find disturbing is sexual gore art. You're finding pleasure in the suffering of others? Hmm. Now that gets me thinking. 

Mostly I'm a mature, rational adult and realize most of this doesn't in any way articulate the irl actions of anyone.


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> I do agree with Kothorix on some of the attention seeking fursuits he demonstrated as being very tacky. (Personally in my opinion some of the fursuits he demonstrated would be fashionable with The Hunger Games Capitol residents. NO SERIOUSLY!)


With all the neon lights and stuff, makes the Vegas strip a competition :V




I don’t mind fursuits/fursuiting If if it’s just for fun and to entertain others, but if it’s a whole “look at me!” And a popularity contest, then there’s an issue.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> That's a dangerous equivalence to make without qualifications; while the words may to a large extent be strictly true, the implications ("sexual fantasy" generally being parsed as "the person who thought this up finds it arousing", not "a made-up situation with sexual elements") make it iffy as hell.
> I know there are artists who will only draw their own kinks. There are also plenty who will draw stuff they're not into.
> There are also people who will view porn they're not specifically into for artistic merit or aesthetics alone.
> 
> ...



Sure, the artists themselves are not always linked to what is drawn, some just draw it cause they were asked to and they want to get paid, and yeah there are some fringe cases.

Though, your anecdotal example ignores the fact that cub, no matter the position the viewer fantasizes themselves in, has unfortunate and worrying implications. Whether fantasizing as the adult or the cub, the conclusion is worrying. With non-con, I can understand fantasizing about just being a victim, it couldn't really translate to anything in that case other than some questionable treatment behind closed doors, and both the perpetrator and victim are adults. I don't think non-con content and cub porn are easily comparable in this regard.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> With all the neon lights and stuff, makes the Vegas strip a competition :V
> View attachment 46419
> I don’t mind fursuits/fursuiting If if it’s just for fun and to entertain others, but if it’s a whole “look at me!” And a popularity contest, then there’s an issue.


How so? This is a fascinating idea


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Really sorry to hear about that. Engaging a minor, as an adult, in sexually explicit situations for personal gratification is a tremendously bad idea. Adults need to be responsible with their authority and higher understanding of sexuality.
> 
> Although often there is no better understanding, otherwise they wouldn't take advantage of a younger person.
> 
> ...


I don't like ANY non-con art, and as for gore art, I share your "HMMM..." on the subject. It's worrying.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> The thread derailed from being about kothorix to being about the validity of fictional child pornography as a therapeutic outlet for pedophiles (mainly cub art, but I think fictional human child porn is on the same level tbh. No matter the species, they're still children after all)


Agreed.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> I do agree with Kothorix on some of the attention seeking fursuits he demonstrated as being very tacky. (Personally in my opinion some of the fursuits he demonstrated would be fashionable with The Hunger Games Capitol residents. NO SERIOUSLY!)


*concerned drag queen bat*


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## Troj (Nov 4, 2018)

Basically, my point was that as socially-awkward, bullied, put-upon people, furries tend to identify very strongly with other people who are being criticized or attacked and believe that such people deserve protection and support.

This is a beautiful empathic reaction when the person in question is being unjustly targeted or attacked.

This is counterproductive when a person is being rightly criticized for something they did, or when they're being appropriately ostracized or quarantined because they're a literal threat or serious bother to those around them.

That's all. I don't presently care about hypothetical scenarios in which SnakeThing is being piñata'ed by Kindergarteners or some other notorious furry has a heart attack on the sidewalk. Not relevant at the moment. Moving on...


Yakamaru said:


> I'm against call out culture as I find the whole idea of it cancerous and toxic as hell, but in some cases it needs to be done. Note that I am for call out culture when someone's already exposed themselves, not actively finding people and basically having it be a witch hunt. I am vehemently against witch hunts of all kinds.



Really, if it were up to me, people would go through the following steps when a controversy bubbles up:

1) Assess the situation, gather information, and hear different perspectives
2) Take an inventory of what is or isn't known---by you, by others, and/or by anyone
3) Gauge the severity or seriousness of the alleged/rumored offense or problem
4) Check in with your own feelings, desires, assumptions, goals, and ego. Identify emotional and ego-driven responses that might lead you astray or cause you to act impulsively/stupidly.
5) Assess whether the person poses an active threat to other people and/or society if the allegations are true
6) Consider whether the person can or should be "called in" vs. "called out" for their behavior, based on the offense and their personality and history, and who should/could be responsible for doing that in theory.
7) Take a deep breath, and plot a course of action that is (in theory) likely to solve or ameliorate the main problem without exacerbating it and/or without adding new problems.
8) Collaborate and communicate with other relevant people around that course of action.
9) Commit to that course of action, and lean on others for support and guidance.
10) If the current plan starts to fall apart or fail, regroup and come up with a new plan. Lather, rinse, repeat.

But, y'know, if wishes were horses n' all that.

If it were really up to me, adults (both furries and normies) would also take a more active and intentional role in supervising, scaffolding, shielding, and instructing the younger folk, since a large chunk of problems, fights, and pointless drama seem to originate with the under-30 set, and because the under-30s especially are often targets for predators and toxic people.

Also, it'd be nice (to say the least, lol) if people weren't so blinded by beauty, talent, and popularity, but, y'know...

As for kink art and the like, I reckon what matters is _what_ the subject of focus is in a given piece of art and _why. _While practically all cub art gives me the willies, I'll certainly grant that cub art that invites the viewer to imagine themselves as the cub is meaningfully different from cub art that invites or prompts the viewer to imagine themselves as a hypothetical adult in that scene. Likewise, I'll similarly grant that feral art that invites the viewer to imagine themselves as the feral creature _or _as an outside observer is different from art that invites the viewer to imagine themselves as a human in that scene--and that whether that human is imagined as active or passive or submissive or dominant matters as well.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> Basically, my point was that as socially-awkward, bullied, put-upon people, furries tend to identify very strongly with other people who are being criticized or attacked and believe that such people deserve protection and support.
> 
> This is a beautiful empathic reaction when the person in question is being unjustly targeted or attacked.
> 
> ...


*saves this brilliant post for later*


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## Elliot Manowar (Nov 4, 2018)

Is it sad that I didn't even watch the video and I knew what he was talking about?


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

EllietheManokit said:


> Is it sad that I didn't even watch the video and I knew what he was talking about?



eh, hes accusing the fandom of mostly being pedo's and zoophiles. thats all it is.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

The video can otherwise be summed up as.
People are being mean to me for my swaggering attitude, shameless role in drama and voicing controversial opinions, I'm leaving!


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## Troj (Nov 4, 2018)

My personal take was that Kothorix was complaining about constantly waking up with fleas after habitually lying down with dogs, to use an old saying that should appeal to furries. 

The various types of attention whores, drama whores, virtue-signallers, political zealots, perverts, horndogs, and insensitive boors he described are all-too-real, but it seemed to me that he hasn't really done much to insulate or distance himself from those types of people--quite the opposite, in fact!

In my humble opinion, many furries would suddenly experience a heightened state of peace and tranquility just by not automatically friending everybody with a fursuit or animal picture as their online avatar.


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## KimberVaile (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> My personal take was that Kothorix was complaining about constantly waking up with fleas after habitually lying down with dogs, to use an old saying that should appeal to furries.
> 
> The various types of attention whores, drama whores, virtue-signallers, political zealots, perverts, horndogs, and insensitive boors he described are all-too-real, but it seemed to me that he hasn't really done much to insulate or distance himself from those types of people--quite the opposite, in fact!
> 
> In my humble opinion, many furries would suddenly experience a heightened state of peace and tranquility just by not automatically friending everybody with a fursuit or animal picture as their online avatar.



Well what kind of baffled me was him playing it off as a furry issue, when he knows damn well any youtuber will get those sort of people with such politically loaded subjects. I mean, you look at a political channel like the Young Turks and try telling me they don't attract a circus of looneys. I know his channel is much smaller, but this isn't like, some fandom specific issue, it's a human issue. He should at the very least, be self aware enough to realize that. He's really not unique in the sort of people he attracts. Youtubers cast a wide net, you'll get obnoxious kids, horny teens, loudmouth zealots, that's just the nature of Youtube.


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## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> My personal take was that Kothorix was complaining about constantly waking up with fleas after habitually lying down with dogs, to use an old saying that should appeal to furries.
> 
> The various types of attention whores, drama whores, virtue-signallers, political zealots, perverts, horndogs, and insensitive boors he described are all-too-real, but it seemed to me that he hasn't really done much to insulate or distance himself from those types of people--quite the opposite, in fact!
> 
> In my humble opinion, many furries would suddenly experience a heightened state of peace and tranquility just by not automatically friending everybody with a fursuit or animal picture as their online avatar.



I like to think I keep a healthy distance from it all, honestly. I don't need to know everyone, don't need to know what they're into, and they don't need to know about me either.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> My personal take was that Kothorix was complaining about constantly waking up with fleas after habitually lying down with dogs, to use an old saying that should appeal to furries.
> 
> The various types of attention whores, drama whores, virtue-signallers, political zealots, perverts, horndogs, and insensitive boors he described are all-too-real, but it seemed to me that he hasn't really done much to insulate or distance himself from those types of people--quite the opposite, in fact!
> 
> In my humble opinion, many furries would suddenly experience a heightened state of peace and tranquility just by not automatically friending everybody with a fursuit or animal picture as their online avatar.


This is so real


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## Troj (Nov 4, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> Well what kind of baffled me was him playing it off as a furry issue, when he knows damn well any youtuber will get those sort of people with such politically loaded subjects. I mean, you look at a political channel like the Young Turks and try telling me they don't attract a circus of looneys. I know his channel is much smaller, but this isn't like, some fandom specific issue, it's a human issue. He should at the very least, be self aware enough to realize that. He's really not unique in the sort of people he attracts. Youtubers cast a wide net, you'll get obnoxious kids, horny teens, loudmouth zealots, that's just the nature of Youtube.



Bottom line, furries often forget that normies are just as bad, albeit in different ways.

I doubt Cenk Uygur gets messages from people who want to do blueberry inflation or anal vore RPs with him, but Kothorix probably doesn't get walls of text from rabid ancaps calling him a "cuck," so....



Alv said:


> I like to think I keep a healthy distance from it all, honestly. I don't need to know everyone, don't need to know what they're into, and they don't need to know about me either.



Does the fandom need to have a tutorial on doing one's yiffy bullshit and fetishy crap under a different name, and not including unwilling parties in said activities?


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## Fallowfox (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> I doubt Cenk Uygur gets messages from people who want to do blueberry inflation or anal vore RPs with him, but Kothorix probably doesn't get walls of text from rabid ancaps calling him a "cuck," so....



I can arrange this happening. :3


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## Troj (Nov 4, 2018)

Just as long as we leave Ana Kasparian out of it. I like her. She's good people.


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## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Troj said:


> Just as long as we leave Ana Kasparian out of it. I like her. *She's good people.*



_southern colloquialisms intensifies_


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## Simo (Nov 4, 2018)

Was talking to a friend and this came up:

What's with the trend of furs having names that are A) Edgy Sounding, or B) Impossible to Pronounce. (or both)

Anyway, my friend commented that *Kothorix* sounds like some kinda heart disease, whereas I thought it sounded like an itchy, contagious rash. Maybe it's both. Just try not to get infected!


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> Was talking to a friend and this came up:
> 
> What's with the trend of furs having names that are A) Edgy Sounding, or B) Impossible to Pronounce. (or both)
> 
> Anyway, my friend commented that *Kothorix* sounds like some kinda heart disease, whereas I thought it sounded like an itchy, contagious rash. Maybe it's both. Just try not to get infected!


Meh. Sounds like average D&D high fantasy naming to me.
Though I guess all mine seem to just happen to come out Greek so.
*shrug*


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## ZeroVoidTime (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> Was talking to a friend and this came up:
> 
> What's with the trend of furs having names that are A) Edgy Sounding, or B) Impossible to Pronounce. (or both)
> 
> Anyway, my friend commented that *Kothorix* sounds like some kinda heart disease, whereas I thought it sounded like an itchy, contagious rash. Maybe it's both. Just try not to get infected!


I do not know how old his YouTube account is but it could just be a legacy username from when he was younger. As he stated in one of his videos he was a very anxious teenager. (Truth is I use to be like that when I was younger all edgy and moody.)


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## Simo (Nov 4, 2018)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> I do not know how old his YouTube account is but it could just be a legacy username from when he was younger. As he stated in one of his videos he was a very anxious teenager. (Truth is I use to be like that when I was younger all edgy and moody.)


 
Wait, there are teenagers who aren't anxious, edgy or moody?


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> Was talking to a friend and this came up:
> 
> What's with the trend of furs having names that are A) Edgy Sounding, or B) Impossible to Pronounce. (or both)
> 
> Anyway, my friend commented that *Kothorix* sounds like some kinda heart disease, whereas I thought it sounded like an itchy, contagious rash. Maybe it's both. Just try not to get infected!



That's just a fantasy trope, look at games like TES and you'll find hundreds of characters named like that


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## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> Wait, there are teenagers who aren't anxious, edgy or moody?



I was actually pretty calm as a teen. Didn't get into trouble, was generally easy to get along with, and many of my friends were adults because I couldn't handle the edginess and irrationality of my similarly aged peers. XD


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## WolfyAmbassador (Nov 4, 2018)

Furexit's coming!


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Simo said:


> Was talking to a friend and this came up:
> 
> What's with the trend of furs having names that are A) Edgy Sounding, or B) Impossible to Pronounce. (or both)
> 
> Anyway, my friend commented that *Kothorix* sounds like some kinda heart disease, whereas I thought it sounded like an itchy, contagious rash. Maybe it's both. Just try not to get infected!


This is delving too far into ad hominem territory for me. While I agree that his name is very hard to pronounce and sounds like something you'd get from a villain name generator, it doesn't have anything to do with his views and the topics at hand.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> I was actually pretty calm as a teen. Didn't get into trouble, was generally easy to get along with, and many of my friends were adults because I couldn't handle the edginess and irrationality of my similarly aged peers. XD


Same here. Aside from my love for theatre and colourful artwork, I was quite boring.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Meh. Sounds like average D&D high fantasy naming to me.
> Though I guess all mine seem to just happen to come out Greek so.
> *shrug*


My name is literally an alcoholic beverage with the front two letters changed. I don't know what that implies, but there it is.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> My name is literally an alcoholic beverage with the front two letters changed. I don't know what that implies, but there it is.


The sona I'm displaying right now has a name that's an anagram of my first, Prometheus. T.E. Morpheus is an anagram of Prometheus and both are Greek in origin X3


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> The sona I'm displaying right now has a name that's an anagram of my first, Prometheus. T.E. Morpheus is an anagram of Prometheus and both are Greek in origin X3



Mines Just my name.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 4, 2018)

Years ago, when I was getting on the internet for the first time, I was joining a Harry Potter Forum and couldn't think of a name. So I put together my favorite House with my favorite Pokemon.
Stuck with it ever since.


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## Alv (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Years ago, when I was getting on the internet for the first time, I was joining a Harry Potter Forum and couldn't think of a name. So I put together my *favorite House* with my favorite Pokemon.
> Stuck with it ever since.



Traitor


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## Faexie (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Traitor


Yeah everyone knows the best house is Hufflepuff!


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 4, 2018)

Alv said:


> Traitor


Long Live the Lark Dord!


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Yeah everyone knows the best house is Hufflepuff!


Actually... It’s ravenclaw :V


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Long Live the Lark Dord!



Greetings fellow Slytherin


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

I don't really like Harry Potter any more, but when I did, I'd probably fit most into Ravenclaw.


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

This thread seems to have derailed, in an actual decent way. 


Spoiler


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 4, 2018)

So is this just confirmed the new Open Chat/LPW?


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> This thread seems to have derailed, in an actual decent way.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I'm honestly impressed with how little mudslinging there was here compared to, say, a political thread.
I would daresay this might be more important to the community than politics, too.


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I'm honestly impressed with how little mudslinging there was here compared to, say, a political thread.
> I would daresay this might be more important to the community than politics, too.


Yay for us?


Slytherin Umbreon said:


> So is this just confirmed the new Open Chat/LPW?


It’s missing one thing: Immunity


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## TrishaCat (Nov 4, 2018)

How I got my username


Spoiler


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I don't really like Harry Potter any more, but when I did, I'd probably fit most into Ravenclaw.


Time to get you back into harry Potter.


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> How I got my username
> 
> 
> Spoiler



I don't see the battle part anywhere. Are you gonna fight the bowl of chili?


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Time to get you back into harry Potter.


Nah, I'm good, thanks.


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## TrishaCat (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I don't see the battle part anywhere. Are you gonna fight the bowl of chili?


You better believe it
What do you think the spoon is for? Tis' my weapon of choice.


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> You better believe it
> What do you think the spoon is for? Tis' my weapon of choice.



Good choice. It's small, quick and easy to hide, the chili will never see it coming 

Although I prefer the frying pan myself


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> You better believe it
> What do you think the spoon is for? Tis' my weapon of choice.


 A delicious Battle!


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## Deleted member 82554 (Nov 4, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> It’s missing one thing: Immunity
> View attachment 46508


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Good choice. It's small, quick and easy to hide, the chili will never see it coming
> 
> Although I prefer the frying pan myself
> 
> View attachment 46511


Obligatory "What game is that?" inquiry


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Yeah everyone knows the best house is Hufflepuff!


That's my house!


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Obligatory "What game is that?" inquiry


Looks like murrowind.


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## Zehlua (Nov 4, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Greetings fellow Slytherin
> 
> View attachment 46506


I NARROWLY missed Slytherin.


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I NARROWLY missed Slytherin.


Slytherpuff awaits


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I NARROWLY missed Slytherin.


I hit Slytherin head on. i took the test multiple times, and not only get Slytherin. I got horned snake for the american school.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Obligatory "What game is that?" inquiry


It's Fable


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## MiroTheFox (Nov 4, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> It's Fable


D A R N


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Slytherpuff awaits


5th house confirmed?!


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 4, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> 5th house confirmed?!


Nah. I dunno if the crossovers were ever a big deal in the HP fandom, but the site I was on did cross-house holiday events and house team/paired competitions from time to time.
People came up with names for each combo. Slytherpuff was the best thing by far.


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## CertifiedCervine (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Nah. I dunno if the crossovers were ever a big deal in the HP fandom, but the site I was on did cross-house holiday events and house team/paired competitions from time to time.
> People came up with names for each combo. Slytherpuff was the best thing by far.


Sounds like it was fun, and that name sounds perfect imo


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## CrookedCroc (Nov 4, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> Obligatory "What game is that?" inquiry



Fable one. It is a secret weapon hidden in a farm early in the game, but you need treasure maps to get it, if you don't use them the weapon has terrible stats



MiroTheFox said:


> Looks like murrowind.



Did someone say MORROWIND!?


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## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Nov 5, 2018)

This has to be one of the strangest threads I've seen in a while


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## Joni (Nov 5, 2018)

Are we still discussing the main topic here?


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## Alv (Nov 5, 2018)

I love the turn this thread took. It started out shitty and you guys have made it hilarious XD


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## Apoc-Volkov (Nov 5, 2018)

Meikiron said:


> *OP Snip*


I'm a bit of a latecomer on this particular issue as someone who first encountered the hot topic at hand through the lens of Mister Metokur, but it is one in a long series of instances in the Fandom where being mindful of the social and legal consequences of one's own behaviour around other people are lost on the individual in question, either because they don't know better, they can't control themselves, or they don't care how their actions are perceived.

Barring the fact that such consequences indirectly impact the Fandom when word of the incident spreads outside the Fandom, it should be treated as another reminder to be cognizant of what you do or say in the presence of others, be it online or in real life. Taking part in a social group for the purposes of escapism doesn't excuse anyone from facing the music for any grievance they commit in the process.


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## Massan Otter (Nov 5, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Meh. Sounds like average D&D high fantasy naming to me.
> Though I guess all mine seem to just happen to come out Greek so.
> *shrug*



It could be Asterix naming too.  You've got Asterix, Obelix, Getafix the druid, Cacaphonix the bard, Unhygienix the fish seller - Kothorix would fit right in!


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## Massan Otter (Nov 5, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Yeah everyone knows the best house is Hufflepuff!



It's the best because they have a badger.  No discussion required!


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## Faexie (Nov 5, 2018)

Joni said:


> Are we still discussing the main topic here?


Nope  Everything that needs to be said about Kothorix has already been said anyway. 

But if you want to add anything, feel free to do so!


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## TheArchiver (Nov 5, 2018)

Personally, agreed with every main point in his video about the community. 

Kothorix is an individual who, for years, consistently defended the fandom and it's shortcomings to the point of mockery and harassment as he explicitly laid out. 

It's rather shocking to see this video come from him but he's right on the money, I'd say.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Nov 5, 2018)

When I did the potermore sorting test, and patronus test, I got sorted into Slytherin and my patronus is a rattle snake. Can't get anymore Slytherin than that.


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## Zehlua (Nov 5, 2018)

TheArchiver said:


> Personally, agreed with every main point in his video about the community.
> 
> Kothorix is an individual who, for years, consistently defended the fandom and it's shortcomings to the point of mockery and harassment as he explicitly laid out.
> 
> It's rather shocking to see this video come from him but he's right on the money, I'd say.


Even the part about fursuits?


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Nov 5, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> You better believe it
> What do you think the spoon is for? Tis' my weapon of choice.


Sporks rule!


----------



## CertifiedCervine (Nov 5, 2018)

Alv said:


> I love the turn this thread took. It started out shitty and you guys have made it hilarious XD


I wish more controversial threads turned out like this :u


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## Slytherin Umbreon (Nov 5, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Nope  Everything that needs to be said about Kothorix has already been said anyway.
> 
> But if you want to add anything, feel free to do so!


His sona is rather attractive


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## Yakamaru (Nov 5, 2018)

Massan Otter said:


> It could be Asterix naming too.  You've got Asterix, Obelix, Getafix the druid, Cacaphonix the bard, Unhygienix the fish seller - Kothorix would fit right in!


Asterix and Obelix all the way, man. My dad have a LOT of Asterix comics in the cellar.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 5, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Asterix and Obelix all the way, man. My dad have a LOT of Asterix comics in the cellar.


That must have been a bizarre pitch to accept. "So the comic is about a Gaelic soldier under Vercingetorix who beats up Roman Legions during the Gaelic War. We'll give the Roman soldiers Popeye anatomy and make them look like shameless assholes, and Caesar will be portrayed as a short angry tyrant."

I want to know what inspired the author to base it on such a weird concept, lol.


----------



## Yakamaru (Nov 5, 2018)

KimberVaile said:


> That must have been a bizarre pitch to accept. "So the comic is about a Gaelic soldier under Vercingetorix who beats up Roman Legions during the Gaelic War. We'll give the Roman soldiers Popeye anatomy and make them look like shameless assholes, and Caesar will be portrayed as a short angry tyrant."
> 
> I want to know what inspired the writer to make such a weird concept, lol.


Weird concept, I agree. In terms of comics you don't need to be historically accurate let alone have proper anatomy to tell a story. Besides. It wasn't the goal let alone point of Asterix and Obelix anyway.


----------



## KimberVaile (Nov 5, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Weird concept, I agree. In terms of comics you don't need to be historically accurate let alone have proper anatomy to tell a story. Besides. It wasn't the goal let alone point of Asterix and Obelix anyway.



Historical accuracy never bothered me in comics, I just thought it was such a weird basis for a comic, usually you just go for a pure fantasy setting. I don't mind the the comics or the anatomy style but the premise always was a little weird to me. It was like, so strangely specific.


----------



## CertifiedCervine (Nov 5, 2018)

So...
What off topic thing should we talk about now? :V
Got any memes?


----------



## Faexie (Nov 5, 2018)

Slytherin Umbreon said:


> His sona is rather attractive


Yeah he is :3 Though his wings looked super awkward in the video lol


----------



## Faexie (Nov 5, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> So...
> What off topic thing should we talk about now? :V
> Got any memes?


Is this thread becoming the new "the last post wins"?


----------



## CertifiedCervine (Nov 5, 2018)

Ramona Rat said:


> Is this thread becoming the new "the last post wins"?


¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Alv (Nov 5, 2018)

Win


----------



## CertifiedCervine (Nov 5, 2018)

Alv said:


> Win


Now it can be lpw :V
Also


Spoiler



lose


----------



## Zehlua (Nov 5, 2018)

TacomaTheDeer said:


> So...
> What off topic thing should we talk about now? :V
> Got any memes?


I have a joke:

When does a seagull turn into bread?


----------



## CertifiedCervine (Nov 5, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I have a joke:
> 
> When does a seagull turn into bread?


When?


----------



## Alv (Nov 5, 2018)

Zehlua said:


> I have a joke:
> 
> When does a seagull turn into bread?



*vores the seagull*


----------



## Vic_the_Hard_Rock_Wolf (Nov 5, 2018)

Alv said:


> *vores the seagull*


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Nov 6, 2018)

Locking this, due to it having gone way off track.


----------

