# Upcoming changes to Black Market - and Art Exchange - Proposals



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm posting it here - people might have input for now.

Main Problem - Art Exchange is starting to turn into Ponzi scheme Exchange. People are creating complicated conditions just for free art to get more watches and comments. I get the idea of doing free art for more watches and comments, but it's comment/watch farming through gimmicks that's getting obnoxious and harder to monitor for the mods.

So basically the proposal is to nix the free raffles, and "Come comment on my work, post a journal at X time, click your heels 3 times and you *might* get free art from me" - This does not mean you can't do these on your own journal. We just want to keep Art Exchange simple: Free art and exchanges - not weird contest stuff for "might get free art" . This is no better than "gimmie a free sketch and I might pay you" keep it fair for both ends. 

Main Problem - Chronic leechers. Non artists may end up getting removed from the forums, if they continue to ask for free art with no participation. Might have to set a limit on how many times you can ask people in the free forums for a drawing. 

Main Problem - 3rd party promotions, link spams. If you want to sell, you need to post details and it should be from yourself - or if you're part of a group, you may post your listing. What we don't want are people posting a "Oh I am open for commissions just see X link" and not provide details, and not taking care of their listing. People are responding on the forums and getting ignored. So if you want to list - you need to take care of the thread and not link spam or post on behalf of others who cannot take care of the thread.

Main Problem - (We actually have this in effect and are enforcing) Self bumps. *1st rule is you cannot self bump your posts for a minimum of 7 days. Period* There is a sticky that says there won't be any more warnings, for not following this or posting NSFW images (embedded, forgetting to mark a link is little less damaging). That means it doesn't matter if you have commissions you finished, or changed the rules. You can edit your post to add in the new images or wait for the 7th day. If you violate this rule, it's going to be a week ban from the forums - it's been varying but a week means you can't access the Art forums for an entire week to prevent you from bumping again. (which is going to be the default proposal for violating this rule).

Main Problem - This one may not be enacted but will see thoughts on this. Killing off recolor adoptables listings. There's just too many people posting listings of recolored adoptables, it looks so junky in the forums. 1 Sample is fine but seeing 4 of the same sparkledog is ridiculous. Wanna sell them on your journal? No problems, that's on FA. But it's depressing to see people just post so many horribly recolored adoptables, and there ARE some good adoptable listings. 

Posting it up for artists to get more feedback so here you go.


----------



## Taralack (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes to all of this.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm not sure if this is something that can be implemented, but a cut-down on the sob-stories would be nice too.
While I don't mind the ones that professionally and shortly state what's wrong and why they need the money, It's getting a bit irritating to have to compete against the "_My car broke and then my pet died and then my computer died and I got it repaired and then it died again and now I got cancer toooo! Give me money please!!_"-types. 

Though I'm not sure if that's something that can be handled. D:


----------



## Tigercougar (Jan 30, 2013)

I say go for it. Gotta give people the props for thinking up clever ways to advertise, but if it's unfair, its unfair. And yeah, the sob stories are rather offputting.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> I'm not sure if this is something that can be implemented, but a cut-down on the sob-stories would be nice too.
> While I don't mind the ones that professionally and shortly state what's wrong and why they need the money, It's getting a bit irritating to have to compete against the "_My car broke and then my pet died and then my computer died and I got it repaired and then it died again and now I got cancer toooo! Give me money please!!_"-types.
> 
> Though I'm not sure if that's something that can be handled. D:



We may possibly do that. We can enforce a keep it to what you're selling and conditions only. Please keep personal issues out of your listing. If that sounds fair?



Tigercougar said:


> I say go for it. Gotta give people the props for thinking up clever ways to advertise, but if it's unfair, its unfair. And yeah, the sob stories are rather offputting.



Yeah it's not that I can't fault them for it, but it shouldn't be 1 sided. If people can't post contests for a chance at art and "might pay" artists shouldn't make it hard for someone to get something either. It also makes us feel responsible for the listing where we have to go in and play interpreters to conditions. Let them do it on their own journal and moderate it.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> We may possibly do that. We can enforce a keep it to what you're selling and conditions only. Please keep personal issues out of your listing. If that sounds fair?



Pretty much. Something like "_My computer broke, so I'm having commissions. Here is my info._" is one thing, "_I'm starving and will write three paragraphs about that before getting to the point about giving me money._" is another thing, if that makes sense.

Though it would possibly be easier to just say "not allowed" to both.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

I think the only exception I'd allow would be charity commissions. Doing commissions for other causes is little more selfless than the sob story ones.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> I think the only exception I'd allow would be charity commissions. Doing commissions for other causes is little more selfless than the sob story ones.



I agree with this.

Though there should be details in the whole charity thing lest somebody uses it as a mask of their own issues.
I guess there would be a set format to advertise too that would be at least somewhat professional?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

Aleu said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Though there should be details in the whole charity thing lest somebody uses it as a mask of their own issues.
> I guess there would be a set format to advertise too that would be at least somewhat professional?



Exactly. Like I said I don't mind details for the charity commissions (what it's for) - and if other users see fraud (like they notice the user's FA journal is really about some sob story need monies) I think it would be best to bring it up in PM to the mods, to avoid some drama.


----------



## UnburntDaenerys (Jan 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Main Problem - Art Exchange is starting to turn into Ponzi scheme Exchange.


Proposed Solution - No Contests or Raffles rule.  It does kind of rub me the wrong way when people just use the Exchange to advertise their advertisement journal.





Arshes Nei said:


> Main Problem - Chronic leechers.


Proposed Solution - I will admit that this one doesn't bother me all that much (some people just can't draw), but perhaps giving out infractions?  Only if their only posts are "free art plox."  I'm much more bothered by people who only post with "ref in sig" and you never hear from them again.





Arshes Nei said:


> Main Problem - 3rd party promotions, link spams.


Proposed Solution - Minimum OP word/character count or a template all must follow, no promotions unless you personally are involved.


----------



## Kalmor (Jan 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Main Problem - Chronic leechers. Non artists may end up getting removed from the forums, if they continue to ask for free art with no participation. Might have to set a limit on how many times you can ask people in the free forums for a drawing.


On what conditions would you say is "one time" of asking? Is it creating a thread asking, or taking up an artist's offer in the artist's thread?

That is my only question, other than that this looks great and should solve quite a few problems.


----------



## Tiamat (Jan 30, 2013)

That I think would be put up to the discretion of the staff. We are quite lenient when it comes to requests. It is reserved for blatant cases. IE: Joining the forums, making about 8 posts in two days and all of them are separate fetish requests.
Thats just one extreme example, but the point is to keep the exchange as a fun community resource, not as something to be exploited.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

Raptros said:


> On what conditions would you say is "one time" of asking? Is it creating a thread asking, or taking up an artist's offer in the artist's thread?
> 
> That is my only question, other than that this looks great and should solve quite a few problems.




Well I had noticed one user will come in and zerg rush a bunch of people taking requests. It's like when you see who last posted 5 of the threads ended with the same user begging. Usually I warn because I had noticed that particular person doing it previously and other users have complained. So if I see that kind of behavior again they will get kicked out.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jan 30, 2013)

can we have some sort of quality control? I see some artist in here who really shouldnt be selling, i know it sounds elitist but some stuff looks legit like a 4 year old with a tick drew it. Also for people hiring and are looking for quality it really should be a sin that that person SPECIFIES that they want good quality and get a bunch of people who apply and really have no business doing so.


----------



## Tiamat (Jan 30, 2013)

I agree that some people shouldnt be selling, I also don't like it when people just apply to -every- commission request, regardless of their technique or specialty.

*But *if the art is as bad as a 4 year olds, are people really spending money on it? Personally I'd prefer to monitor an open market. I don't think it would be fair to shut down a thread due to skill level.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jan 30, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I agree that some people shouldnt be selling, I also don't like it when people just apply to -every- commission request, regardless of their technique or specialty.
> 
> *But *if the art is as bad as a 4 year olds, are people really spending money on it? Personally I'd prefer to monitor an open market. I don't think it would be fair to shut down a thread due to skill level.



the art im referring to no one ever buys unless sob story is thrown in and then its just out of pitty. These are the same people who apply to EVERY thread, even if they ask for a 3d commish they still apply because they dont fucking read


----------



## Tiamat (Jan 30, 2013)

Well, we are cracking down on the sob stories, so that base should be covered. In the end its up to the client as to who they want to go with. I honestly dont see terrible art or stupid applicants as anything more than a personal annoyance, but if they cross into copy-past mass spam territory or illegal bumpage, that will open them up to infractions.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

How about no $1 dollar commissions? I think a five dollar minimum to sell is fine.


----------



## Tiamat (Jan 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> How about no $1 dollar commissions? I think a five dollar minimum to sell is fine.



I like that. Should make things a bit more interesting.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 30, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> How about no $1 dollar commissions? I think a five dollar minimum to sell is fine.



This sounds fair since doesn't paypal charge a fee or something when you select payment for goods/services?
I mean, with that low of a price you might as well just do free drawings.

I also agree with people needing to, you know, read a fucking thread before they linkspam their page. I recall someone requesting I think partial fursuit or something and someone posted all their info and all they do is just, standard art. I guess that could still be reported as off-topic/spam and I'm not sure if that's a big enough problem to crack down on compared to the general off-topic posts the rest of the forum.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

Well the thought is if you don't even think your work is even worth 5 dollars you really shouldn't sell anyways. Yes paypal fees are part of the reason a dollar is worthless as a transaction.


----------



## RTDragon (Jan 30, 2013)

Should sketches be at least $10 considering that is pretty fair.


----------



## Taralack (Jan 30, 2013)

While I like the idea of policing the Black Market based on people's skill level, I feel like it goes against the nature of that forum a little so I reckon we should just leave it open. Besides, if they're really terrible, they'll weed themselves out eventually. The minimum price to sell is a good idea though, and it could actually help with weeding out the ones who shouldn't have any business selling art. 

And I agree with disallowing linkspam regardless of the request. The ones that really get on my nerves are ones that copy-pasta the same thing in multiple threads at once. I want to say everyone replying should at least address the OP first, and then listing relevant (this is important) examples - but I don't think it should be a bannable offence. In extreme cases though we should probably apply a warning and then a ban.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Should sketches be at least $10 considering that is pretty fair.



Well I don't want to get too much into a debate of how much one should charge as a minimum because there's going to be something that people are ok with...ie icons for 5 bucks or something.


----------



## Taralack (Jan 31, 2013)

Might I also suggest that users shouldn't note/pm/email potential customers unless they explicitly state to do so?


----------



## Venu.Shade (Jan 31, 2013)

I agree with all of this. I have been a culprit in regards to bumping but it was mainly because I was doing it half-fast without checking when I had last posted on my thread/bumped it. Girl Scouts honor i wont be That idiot again.

And like what Dinosaurs was going on about. I have seen people who are selling art and such who look like they can barely draw a straight line and never look at references or honestly practice or Any of that. I die a little on the inside when I see that. Hell I say people going "Oh hey I do sketches for 50 cents" and im banging my head on my desk wishing I could rip them apart but I don't like being "That asshole"

I have also seen people copy-pasting their "Oh hey you want to hire someone heres my shiz" even after the OP had stated they had found someone to commission and what have you but had forgotten to lock the thread. THAT really ticks me off. its like.. Do you not READ? AT ALL?!


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 31, 2013)

Venu.Shade said:


> I die a little on the inside when I see that. Hell I say people going "Oh hey I do sketches for 50 cents" and im banging my head on my desk wishing I could rip them apart but I don't like being "That asshole"
> 
> I have also seen people copy-pasting their "Oh hey you want to hire someone heres my shiz" even after the OP had stated they had found someone to commission and what have you but had forgotten to lock the thread. THAT really ticks me off. its like.. Do you not READ? AT ALL?!



I agree with this. And it's pretty hard to restrain yourself from quoting the message of the OP stating they've hired to the person spamming accompanied by a snarky "learn to read", because then all you're doing in the process is bumping the thread again for other idiots to post more spam. 

As for the people who can't draw, but still sell: I'm often very, very tempted to go in and con-crit. Seeing as commissions-threads aren't posted in Tutorials & Critiques, would we still be allowed to give some pointers as to why the work isn't selling?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 31, 2013)

Toraneko said:


> Might I also suggest that users shouldn't note/pm/email potential customers unless they explicitly state to do so?



Yes that's a good idea. Plus it's just spam.
Before CA had their Jobs 2.0 that was actually a bannable offense because people just spammed the forums with that. Showcase what you can do and leave it at that. You don't need to see "note sent"



Ansitru said:


> As for the people who can't draw, but still sell: I'm often very, very tempted to go in and con-crit. Seeing as commissions-threads aren't posted in Tutorials & Critiques, would we still be allowed to give some pointers as to why the work isn't selling?



Yes, I wouldn't mind personally. Would just have to put a notice that sellers may find constructive crits/as customer feedback on their listings. However, I'm concerned how spammy it gets. One smart way to do it is to create a crit post in the Critique forums. If we make it one megathread I'm fine with it. Then when you see a customer who has work that's not up to par, direct link your response in with the megathread and tell them if they want to continue the discussion just reply in the megathread.

That way you can let them know politely, and not spam up listings with arguments. However, it can only be done *once* per seller's listing. So if someone already did it, don't spam them again. 

Does that make sense?

The only thing I wouldn't allow is "your prices are too high" "I wish I could buy it, but I'm broke" that's spammish.


----------



## Zenia (Jan 31, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> "I wish I could buy it, but I'm broke" that's spammish.


That is the comment I think I hate most when I post a thread/journal about selling commissions. >___>


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 31, 2013)

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa...uctive-Criticism-Thread?p=3141435#post3141435

This is the megathread I created so far.


----------



## Venu.Shade (Jan 31, 2013)

Zenia said:


> That is the comment I think I hate most when I post a thread/journal about selling commissions. >___>



THIS.

I like that people are interested in my work but saying that I feel is like saying "You're overcharging" which I think isn't very fair and it's like a slap in the face to me. Sorry but I value my skills and time as an artist :V

I think a more appropriate comment would be "I like your stuff and I'll put you on my to-commission list" or something along those lines.


----------



## Tiamat (Jan 31, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa...uctive-Criticism-Thread?p=3141435#post3141435
> 
> This is the megathread I created so far.



Love it.


----------



## Faustus (Jan 31, 2013)

I'll admit I've been a (only very occasional) offender in terms of 'I wish I could afford that but can't' posts, so let me play devil's advocate for a second here and give my own reason. The post in question was about to disappear off the screen where nobody would see it. I didn't want that to happen. It was a rare example of great, original art being auctioned at a reasonable price (by which I mean _not ridiculously cheap_) and I'd like to see more of that. Since you're not allowed to bump your own threads, I desperately wanted to leave some kind of comment just to prevent it from disappearing under a sea of low-paying commission threads. It honestly didn't occur to me that anyone would ever take such a statement as a begging request, and that makes me a little sad.

I agree with most of the other stuff, although I do see some potential logistical problems - i.e. minimum prices: what's fair for a small avatar isn't fair for a full colour picture involving several characters. Could lead to a complicated system that nobody can be bothered with. - the question of how many freebie requests are too many - that kind of thing. Could be difficult to lay down sensible, simple and yet succinct and easily-followed rules.

One thing I'd like to say though is, if people can't put contests in the Art Exchange (which I agree with wholeheartedly, by the way!) it would be nice if they had somewhere else to list them that was specifically FOR contests. Especially if this encouraged people to make better contests, not just thinly-veiled 'draw me free art' threads and personal promotion. Y'know, stuff with really interesting premises, cool prizes and stuff. Maybe even a regular official FA competition once in a while? That kind of competition can help stimulate the community. I'd love to run a few contests myself, but I wouldn't in the Art Exchange because it doesn't seem the right place for it. (I also don't think personal journals are a good place, because then only the very popular people will get any reasonable number of viewers. A good contest should be about a great, inspiring premise, not who's running it or what people get out of it.)

-F


----------



## Tiamat (Jan 31, 2013)

Faustus said:


> I'll admit I've been a (only very occasional) offender in terms of 'I wish I could afford that but can't' posts, so let me play devil's advocate for a second here and give my own reason. The post in question was about to disappear off the screen where nobody would see it. I didn't want that to happen. It was a rare example of great, original art being auctioned at a reasonable price (by which I mean _not ridiculously cheap_) and I'd like to see more of that. Since you're not allowed to bump your own threads, I desperately wanted to leave some kind of comment just to prevent it from disappearing under a sea of low-paying commission threads. It honestly didn't occur to me that anyone would ever take such a statement as a begging request, and that makes me a little sad.



You've lost me on that one I'm afraid. But don't call yourself out for past offenses. That is not what this thread is about.



> I agree with most of the other stuff, although I do see some potential logistical problems - i.e. minimum prices: what's fair for a small avatar isn't fair for a full colour picture involving several characters. Could lead to a complicated system that nobody can be bothered with. - the question of how many freebie requests are too many - that kind of thing. Could be difficult to lay down sensible, simple and yet succinct and easily-followed rules.



I really don't foresee any of these things becoming a complicated problem. The minimum proposed 5 dollar price is to be practical with Paypal fees. After that it is the artists and clients choices. Arshes already stated that we will not be dictating who must charge what. Freebie regulation has been made quite clear as well...



> One thing I'd like to say though is, if people can't put contests in the Art Exchange (which I agree with wholeheartedly, by the way!) it would be nice if they had somewhere else to list them that was specifically FOR contests. Especially if this encouraged people to make better contests, not just thinly-veiled 'draw me free art' threads and personal promotion. Y'know, stuff with really interesting premises, cool prizes and stuff. Maybe even a regular official FA competition once in a while? That kind of competition can help stimulate the community. I'd love to run a few contests myself, but I wouldn't in the Art Exchange because it doesn't seem the right place for it. (I also don't think personal journals are a good place, because then only the very popular people will get any reasonable number of viewers. A good contest should be about a great, inspiring premise, not who's running it or what people get out of it.)



The main site itself is cracking down on contests, so it is doubtful they will ever be allowed here (except in proven charity cases like Arshes mentioned) its a question of fairness. To avoid the possibilty of any kind of shilling or scams its is better not to have them at all, for neither established members or new ones.


----------



## Ansitru (Jan 31, 2013)

Just out of curiosity: when would these changes be implemented?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 31, 2013)

Probably in a week or 2. Gotta proof and all that.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 31, 2013)

Friend bumping/promotion/spam bumping isn't tolerable regardless of your reasoning. If you aren't buying or selling - or giving a constructive crit. Please leave the threads to their own devices. I don't want to kick out people for that, so please don't think that's ever a good idea. It feels like you're gaming the system and making it unfair for other artists.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jan 31, 2013)

*OH GOD OH MAN I CANNOT WAIT FOR THESE RULES TO ENACT- *

Yes I'm fully aware I've now bumped this 3 times but I want the people running over spamming the Exchange and Black Market forums with some of the crap we're talking about will have numbered days!!!

[yt]Y9KyBdPeKHg[/yt]


----------



## Ansitru (Feb 1, 2013)

And now I'm adding some 2 cents again, because I've noticed an annoying tendency: commissioners deleting their threads when they're told their commission-request is not feasible or simply detrimental to an artist. I'm mostly talking about "_Illustrate our book,50 pages for $20!_" or "_Make me line-art I can use for adoptables, so I can make profit, but I won't pay for the copyright_". 

I swear, there's got to be a special circle in hell just for these people. o n o 

I understand that commissioners should be able to close / lock their thread when they've found an artist to work with, but is thread-deletion absolutely necessary?
I recall it being revoked once before because the right to delete threads was abused by the hissy-fit-throwing crowd.


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 1, 2013)

I could be misunderstanding you, but I don't think its too much of a problem if they delete their own shitty threads? Saves us the trouble.


----------



## Ansitru (Feb 1, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I could be misunderstanding you, but I don't think its too much of a problem if they delete their own shitty threads? Saves us the trouble.



I think it kind of is when (fictitious example) they're being told that $20 pages for 50 pages of illustration-work is sort of not-done and they delete the thread to avoid getting advice, or as they would call it "tr0llz". Especially if they are the _delete-repost-delete-repost_-kind of person.

It's probably just a personal pet-peeve then. D:


----------



## Taralack (Feb 1, 2013)

I recall a thread like that popping up recently. (though it was still before there were any mods) Even though he deleted it, Arshes restored it cos he was being dumb about it despite literally every response in the thread telling him he was wrong. 

I think in situations like that it's better to evaluate on a case by case basis - if they deleted their thread with no responses then leave it, but if they deleted with people telling him off then restore but lock it to prevent further drama. Maybe a temp ban too to cool off his heels.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 1, 2013)

Nah, I am fine with thread deletion in the Black Market/Art Exchange. It cuts down on the drama where it should be focused on selling/buying/exchanging.

However, Deletion/Relisting abuse isn't tolerated. It's one thing to delete your streaming thread - it's another to constantly delete and re-list your commissions when an edit will do.

However, the art forums Palette Town/Tutorials Critis lost the ability to delete threads here because of people abusing it when this is focused more on art improvement.


----------



## Dark Razvan (Feb 4, 2013)

Is it possible to make a division between low budget and high budget commissions?, I liked that kind of division on CA, because sometimes people doesn't even post how much their budget is... and sometimes by the way they write their request it makes tou think they have money to pay for what they want (like 'I'm very nitpicky with my commission, so if you draw anime/manga, don't bother, I want high quality art', and then you get in touch just to find out they have just 20 bucks -.-)
So, either making a sub forum for cheap stuff (since I haven't seen people willing to pay very much when they post -even if they end up paying more after they want you-, I'd say just keep int like , under 30 bucks, and more than 30 bucks)
or... make a rule that if you're posting a commission offer, you SHOULD post your budget on the title of the thread, that way it'll be easier to go thru the endless threads of 'I want one dollar I want artz'


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2013)

Making it a requirement to state the budget is an acceptable solution. I don't think making a "Division" is going to work because of the complications of trying to determine what's the amount for "high budget" vs "low budget".


----------



## Ozriel (Feb 4, 2013)

We also need to implement something for people creating multiple accounts with the purpose of creating multiple threads for peddling their art or bumping it under a different name.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> We also need to implement something for people creating multiple accounts with the purpose of creating multiple threads for peddling their art or bumping it under a different name.



That's going into "Gaming the system" ie things like friend/roommate bumps and related.


----------



## Ozriel (Feb 4, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> That's going into "Gaming the system" ie things like friend/roommate bumps and related.



Alright.


----------



## Aleu (Feb 4, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Making it a requirement to state the budget is an acceptable solution. I don't think making a "Division" is going to work because of the complications of trying to determine what's the amount for "high budget" vs "low budget".



Could set up a poll of what the minimum amount would be for high budget and work off of that.
So say if the general opinion is $50+ is high budget then there would be two areas set up. $5 to $49 for low budget and $50 and up for the high budget or something like that.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 4, 2013)

But you seem to forget what kinds of art will demand certain budgets. That's why it's just simpler to make the person looking for commissions to post a budget for their project and get replies.

$50 dollars might be "high" for inked linework, low for fully colored work with background, low for animation work, low for comic book work, etc...

So instead of having to list "this goes in the high forum, this goes into the low" and trying to moderate that mess

We have

Commissioner:
State budget
What they're looking for. Examples, etc.


----------



## Venu.Shade (Feb 6, 2013)

hm.. i just thought of something. could an artist who posts a sales thread request that all critique and such that would normally be made on the thread, be instead directed to a private message, or if it were towards a singular picture, have the critique in the form of a comment on the picture over on FA?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 6, 2013)

Venu.Shade said:


> hm.. i just thought of something. could an artist who posts a sales thread request that all critique and such that would normally be made on the thread, be instead directed to a private message, or if it were towards a singular picture, have the critique in the form of a comment on the picture over on FA?



It will go on the Megathread that was created.


----------



## PrettyKitty13 (Feb 8, 2013)

Tiamat mentioned
"Unfortunately raffles are no longer permitted anywhere on the forums."

This sounds quite redundant, but does our signatures count?


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm a bit stupid...so I don't quite understand redundant in this context?

Signature links are fine, for the moment.

EDIT: I probably should have said no raffle threads instead...


----------



## PrettyKitty13 (Feb 8, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I'm a bit stupid...so I don't quite understand redundant in this context?
> 
> Signature links are fine, for the moment.
> 
> EDIT: I probably should have said no raffle threads instead...



Pssh my bad, Reading that back I realized I used the word wrong. Be right back, going down a grade and retaking AP English xD
Silliness aside, thanks Tiamat, that made things much more clear


----------



## Zoetrope (Feb 8, 2013)

I would like to propose something else.

Chronic leechers of a different kind. There are a few artists that post their availability to do commissions in every single commission thread that pops up. They offer no details they just provide links to their work and say 'look here' when the commissioner has in fact laid out some very specific rules and desires for their piece and now must dig through in search of price lists and work examples. I liken them to vultures circling and it seems kind of desperate to me.

If other leeching/spam posting isn't allowed here then I believe this should fall along the same lines. If desperate posting in every request thread isn't allowed, then neither should desperate posting in every commission thread. The chronic requesters come off as actually a little politer than these artists for the most part. Of course commissions may be the artists' only source of income but I will echo the sentiments of some many others in this forum.

Quit hovering over faf. :/ Get a job.


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 8, 2013)

That is actually something that is enforced. If you see anyone doing something along those lines, just report them and the staff will take a look and decide if anything needs to be done.


----------



## Zoetrope (Feb 8, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> That is actually something that is enforced. If you see anyone doing something along those lines, just report them and the staff will take a look and decide if anything needs to be done.



Well keen! That's something that has always bothered me. The rules do mention something about being precise with what you are offering, but it doesn't say anything about spam posting in threads with your commission info. (unless I missed it.)


----------



## Ansitru (Feb 8, 2013)

Zoetrope said:


> Well keen! That's something that has always bothered me. The rules do mention something about being precise with what you are offering, but it doesn't say anything about spam posting in threads with your commission info. (unless I missed it.)



There was just someone like this today and I reported them. Given that two threads were locked afterwards, I would assume it's been taken care of.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2013)

Not only is it spam, a lot of people should really ask if they're appropriate for the kind of work when they constantly apply.

"Hi I'm looking for someone to draw video game fanart of my characters"

"Hi l can do this for X amount, look at my page.
*page is full of feral and pony art*

Seriously guys. Customize your response to cater to your client. Don't just mass spam and link to a page and not promote examples that actually *addresses* to a commissioner's request. That's incredibly messed up and rude.


----------



## Ansitru (Feb 8, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Not only is it spam, a lot of people should really ask if they're appropriate for the kind of work when they constantly apply.
> 
> "Hi I'm looking for someone to draw video game fanart of my characters"
> 
> ...



To be honest, it puts me off of commenting after such a spammer or in a thread full of people who spam-post like that.
While I do only post in the threads for jobs I feel I can handle, I have no desire of being lumped in and written off with the spammers and more often than not just don't post.

It's good to see this is being enforced, honestly. I get slightly peeved when I see people spam and copy-paste post even if the comment*right before them* is from the OP saying he found someone to work with.


----------



## Zoetrope (Feb 8, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> To be honest, it puts me off of commenting after such a spammer or in a thread full of people who spam-post like that.
> While I do only post in the threads for jobs I feel I can handle, I have no desire of being lumped in and written off with the spammers and more often than not just don't post.
> 
> It's good to see this is being enforced, honestly. I get slightly peeved when I see people spam and copy-paste post even if the comment*right before them* is from the OP saying he found someone to work with.



I echo this sentiment. I hesitate to post in those threads myself even if the job is right up my alley. It's like they swoop in and taint it.


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 8, 2013)

Exactly, its the basics of advertising. Try spam bombing the industry with that strategy and see how far it gets you.


----------



## MattsyKuntheKitsune (Feb 8, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Should sketches be at least $10 considering that is pretty fair.



If you have a lot of watchers and people who will actively buy your art. I'd like to have the popularity of some people and have them buy my art. Then my prices would be higher. But since I don't, my prices are cheap (not because I don't value my art, but because even though I know my art is pretty good, no one would buy it if I had it high-priced).

TL;DR: prices should be left up to the person doing the commissions. I do agree, however, on the $5 limit (with the exception of sketches and still icons).


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 8, 2013)

The $5 dollar minimum has nothing to do with quality or size of the art. Its about being practical and actually turning some kind of a profit after dealing with Paypals handling fees.


----------



## Tigercougar (Feb 8, 2013)

In other words, the adage 'casting a wide net' does NOT always work in one's favor. I've seen my fair share of this behavior myself and it makes me shake my head at the lack of foresight on the part of the artist.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2013)

MattsyKuntheKitsune said:


> TL;DR: prices should be left up to the person doing the commissions. I do agree, however, on the $5 limit (with the exception of sketches and still icons).



No. *No exceptions. *
Not only for the reasons Tiamat already stated with paypal fees, but we're not going to niggle monitor every kind of work as to X price.


----------



## RTDragon (Feb 8, 2013)

I wish i could say the same considering i'm watching a stream where sketches are $1 dollars. That's pretty bad if artist is using paypal.


----------



## Ansitru (Feb 8, 2013)

Another question about something I've seen done on FA an have been pondering over: artists who do free art, but allow for tips when the requester receives the art. It's not a "must pay"-thing, apparently, more of a "Tip if you feel like it". Would that be barred from the forum as well? 

I'm thinking it would be because of obvious reasons, but I figured I'd ask anyway. c:


----------



## Zoetrope (Feb 8, 2013)

Ansitru said:


> Another question about something I've seen done on FA an have been pondering over: artists who do free art, but allow for tips when the requester receives the art. It's not a "must pay"-thing, apparently, more of a "Tip if you feel like it". Would that be barred from the forum as well?
> 
> I'm thinking it would be because of obvious reasons, but I figured I'd ask anyway. c:



Personally I find outright asking or suggesting of tips to be rude. I was at a restaurant today and no one mentioned their tips when they refilled my coffee. I think if someone receives free art and if they really really like it they should tip the artist, it really does show the appreciation.

Tipping should be optional. Asking or insinuating about tips is bad mojo.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 8, 2013)

These days people put out tip jars with the excuse that they're underpaid. Places that have no business asking for tips, like Subway, Starbucks etc is outright rude. So the internet equivalent of a tip jar is ridiculous, sorry guys but price your art fairly. Not shamelessly ask for tips for service you're supposed to do to begin with. Now it's fine if someone wants to tip someone because he/she feels the artist went the extra mile, but having a tip jar out is like creating an unfriendly expectation. I actually avoid artists that put that up on their page to be honest because it comes off as entitlement over professionalism.

But to answer your question. Yes, don't ask for tips for stuff done in the Art Exchange as it confuses the purpose of the two forums. You want money for your work, sell it. If a person does decide to tip you I'm not going to stop him/her from giving a person a tip but at least it's done after the fact, and the internet equivalent of not shaking a tip jar at someone's face.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2013)

And the rules are now in effect:

http://forums.furaffinity.net/announcement.php?f=16&a=53

http://forums.furaffinity.net/announcement.php?f=15&a=48

I moved the one about Special Forum privileges to Black Market and Art Exchange since I removed the ability to close and delete in Palette Town and Crits forums. 

Hopefully I didn't forget anything.


----------



## Teal (Feb 10, 2013)

I though you guys were going to put a $5 dollar minimum.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2013)

Teal said:


> I though you guys were going to put a $5 dollar minimum.



Did you read the announcement?


----------



## Teal (Feb 10, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Did you read the announcement?


 My bad, I missed that part. ^^;


----------

