# [split] FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)



## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

Can someone remind me why we tolerate cub porn, but we don't tolerate clean, artistic photos?


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## yak (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*

It's not a question of tolerating something, as we are not running a preference-driven website.
It's a question of reason, and there's no reason to post basically 10x photos of the same thing.

[edit]
I also find it a bit amusing seeing you defend the freedom of posting one thing and trying to get the other off the site.


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## SammyFox (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*



			
				yak said:
			
		

> It's not a question of tolerating something, as we are not running a preference-driven website.
> It's a question of reason, and there's no reason to post basically 10x photos of the same thing.



should I remember you this is a petition?

if you talk here, then you sign here. if you don't want to sign for the petition, delete your post and instead talk about it in another thread.

this will cause less confusion (and less drama too)


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*

It's always a preference thing.

You would prefer cub porn over "10x photos of the same thing", as you put it. 

I'm not here to argue this. I'm just asking why I'm still here.

[edit]

one of them is of questionable legality... and the other doesn't drive members away.


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## SammyFox (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*



			
				yak said:
			
		

> It's not a question of tolerating something, as we are not running a preference-driven website.
> It's a question of reason, and there's no reason to post basically 10x photos of the same thing.
> 
> [edit]
> I also find it a bit amusing seeing you defend the freedom of posting one thing and trying to get the other off the site.



would george bush argue about why he started the iraq war on a petition against the iraq war on petition online? no.


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## yak (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> It's always a preference thing.
> 
> You would prefer cub porn over "10x photos of the same thing", as you put it.
> 
> ...


We don't run the preference game, 
We know one thing is art (yes, art, and it doesn't mater if you happen not to like it), and the other thing is 10x copies of the same things done with a cellphone camera.
We also know one thins is less then 0.5% of the site content, and the other's considerably higher.

Legality is completely out of the question because it's art. Drawn on paper or on a computer. 
For a person with such an obvious bias against it, i find it funny that you use that as an argument to defend freedom of expression.

And don't worry, neither am i arguing. I'm just replying to your questions on my free time. 



			
				SammyFox said:
			
		

> yak said:
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I'm sorry, but i cannot understand what you've wrote.

Let's think real. I'm just saying that the petition will accomplish nothing but gather drama. It will not solve FA's financial situation no matter how much debates will happen. You will gather a group of alike-minded individuals, you will agree that FA needs to remove those restrictions, you will get a list of signatures. Then what? 

The ironic thing is, my own signature will be among that list, and so will other admin's.


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## Fender (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*



			
				CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> It's always a preference thing. You would prefer cub porn over "10x photos of the same thing", as you put it.


Nobody is saying that, but it's much easier to define the artistic merit that went into the creation of one drawing as opposed to ten images.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*



			
				Fender said:
			
		

> CaptainSaicin said:
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As a photographer I object to this line of reasoning. And since when did you care about artistic merit? if I had a nickel for every stick-figure quality porn pic on FA, I'd be a rich man.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

yak said:
			
		

> Legality is completely out of the question because it's art. Drawn on paper or on a computer.
> For a person with such an obvious bias against it, i find it funny that you use that as an argument to defend freedom of expression.



Excuse me, but one of my friends was arrested and served jail time for hentai found on his computer by the police. Hentai, as I'm sure you're aware, is 'art', 'drawn on paper or on a computer.' But hey, if you want to argue with me as to how 'furry' loli is somehow more legal than non-furry loli, go right ahead.


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## Fender (Jul 10, 2007)

*RE: FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)*



			
				CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> As a photographer I object to this line of reasoning. And since when did you care about artistic merit? if I had a nickel for every stick-figure quality porn pic on FA, I'd be a rich man.


Photography is a tricky subject to touch, and we're trying to handle it carefully. The biggest difference is, good or bad, it's a lot easier to look at a picture that may be "bad" and see the time and effort the artist put into it. Photography is a beautiful medium, but anybody can snap off a single picture with a camera a matter of seconds.

We're not here to say what's good or bad, but we're trying to further define what belongs here. If somebody takes ten snapshots of their dog sleeping and posts them to FA, that becomes a problem. If somebody posts ten in depth pictures of unique imagery, that's not a problem.

Fur Affinity does not have infinite resources as people seem to think it does.


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## Fender (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but one of my friends was arrested and served jail time for hentai found on his computer by the police. Hentai, as I'm sure you're aware, is 'art', 'drawn on paper or on a computer.' But hey, if you want to argue with me as to how 'furry' loli is somehow more legal than non-furry loli, go right ahead.


What's your friends name? If he was arrested and charged, he will be listed as a sexual offender, and we can research the case to get further information (provided he was in the United States). Hentai is not grounds for an arrest, clear and simple. If artistic depictions of fantasty critters in compromising situations was illegal, minor or not, then entire websites like Cub Central would have been shut down ages ago.

Fur Affinity's server exists in the United States and abides by U.S laws and rules, and will do so. And we're in compliance.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

Fender said:
			
		

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Excuse me, but if you think I'm going to give out my friend's personal information on the internet, and here of all places, so you can look up his records, you're off your rocker.


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## Fender (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but if you think I'm going to give out my friend's personal information on the internet, and here of all places, so you can look up his records, you're off your rocker.


Then I hate to say this but don't use "your friend" as an evidence to fuel your argument if you're not willin' to back it up! His records would be public were he arrested on the charges you claim, and thus he'd be registered as a sex offender, his charges freely accessable. 

That's easy to look up, and if Hentai was all he was into, then we'd be able to support that argument. Ferroxs are part weasel, after all, and that means we ferret out the information to make sure it's legit! That's what we do! That's our thing. we like to gnaw on facts!


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## Leahtaur (Jul 10, 2007)

The whole idea of a petition makes me laugh. As if FA were a democracy. It shouldn't be. People seem to think that they can just add and add and add infinite submissions regardless of content -- FA and the funds behind it are a finite resource! If you go far enough down the line, FA can be a place to post three photos of yourself/your dog/etc and no more, or it can be an imitation Myspace for a short amount of time and then be gone entirely because the funds for bandwidth have run out. I'd much rather keep FA.

WHY do people find it so hard to get a Myspace/Photobucket and link it in their FA profile?

And while I'm no fan of cub porn and half of the outer fringes of fetishes on this site, I'd much rather stumble across them than twenty photos of a person's damn teddy bear. One is art, one is not. They could be the most artistic photos in the world, but three is enough.

I really don't understand why this is such a big debate to some people, these rules make perfect sense to me. :/


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## codewolf (Jul 10, 2007)

Leahtaur said:
			
		

> I really don't understand why this is such a big debate to some people, these rules make perfect sense to me. :/


because they are obviously spoiled little brats who are used to getting their own way.....

this argument is stupid, the rules have been put in place for a reason, so like it or lump it, you (collective) have to follow them as aggreed by you (collective) when signing up for an account with FA.

(oh by the way if anyone wants to troll me/flame me feel free to do so by pm... i would rather this topic wasnt cluttered up by useless posts)


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

My belief is simple.

Rules are supposed to exist for one reason, and meet three criteria.
The one reason:
To protect the interest of the majority of the community.

The criteria:
1)  The rule must serve in the majority of the community's best interest (as per the reason for the existance of the rule)
2)  The rule must be enforced fairly.  'Zero tolerance' is not so, as it does not allot for situational or circumstantial considerations, and 'lapse enforcement' is equally intolerable for reasons of unfairness and favoritism abuse.  Example:  If someone breaks a rule reguarding posting an image of themselves, don't just ban/suspend on sight.  Ask them to stop, explain it, and remove the pictures or ask them to.  Garunteed you'll have a LOT higher compliance than 'Broke a rule, BAN'D!'
3)  The rule must be changed or revoked as dictated necessary by the community it serves, lest the rule be either abused or becomes unable to adequately protect the community.


With one recent exception, all of FA's rules have provided this.
The no-photobucket behavior protects against:
Disk space overconsumption.
Website slowdown.
Community declared Non-Art dilution of contributions.

The majority of the community suggested this long before it was a rule, and the majority both defend and support it, at present.
The rule is enforced very leniently but without exception in a kind, caring, and understanding way.  Extreme measures are very rare.
And the rule has yet to require any change in the opinion of the majority.



Simple as that.


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## Oni (Jul 10, 2007)

I wonder how difficult it would be for F.A. staff to offer/provide a predefined set limited amount of webspace for its users? The available amount of webspace would be disclosed so the user will know, via their account, the exact amount of webspace at their disposal.

More webspace can be given to a user at request, perhaps even after the user's uploaded content has been reviewed and judged using policy rules/law.

I do not know how large the FA staff is, so this idea may be insignificant.


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## Summercat (Jul 10, 2007)

My question, then, is that of sequential pictures...

But that's aside the point. 

Now, I don't like Photobucket or LJ, but I've my own place to upload pictures (Hehehe, neonphoenix.info), but regardless, I still resent being told "Take it to $place!" when for many reasons, I refuse to go to $place. I've never had this issue as I've uploaded... murrfle... A tiny handful of pictures from a camera, maybe two - from when I was fursuiting one night, and ordered from a fast food place.

Now, I have to be honest and set aside my personal dislike for how the rule has apparently been enforced, and look at Janglur's post and criteria, as per above.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say for years, both about online communities and real world laws. And so far failed. Thank you, Janglur, I'll be stealing this and referencing you as 'A dear friend who once stated it like this," when I become rich and famous =P

But all seriousness aside, in response to the original poster:

The two situations are NOT COMPARABLE.

The first situation was over the banning of an entire genre of art that otherwise fit the criteria for being on FurAffinity.

This situation is about an excessive ammount of digital pictures taken by a real world camera of the real world about the same subject matter. Now, while I disagree that I should be able to post one picture about the same subject matter once a month along with any other uploads I have, I agree that I should NOT be using FurAffinity as 'Fileshack'. On the occasions that I have done so, I removed the picture as soon as it's purpose was served (IE, had an issue with SluggyFreelance, uploaded some screenshots to show examples, then took 'em down 'bout ten minutes later - didn't have my website yet.)

Entire genre of furry art - Furry.
Excessive ammounts of real world pictures. - Not Furry.

Ahem.

This site is called FUR-Affinity, not RealWorld-Affinity. 

I think going on past this point would be talking out of where the poop goes, and unlike my cousin, I don't think I'm refering to the toilet.

All opinions, ideas, and other information containted in the above post, unless otherwise noted, are (C) me. Do not infringe on my copyright by reproducing without permission. Disclaimer: The opinions stated are mine and mine alone - and they are not (This time) an attack on any specific person, place, thing, or thought process.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

Let me put it to you this way, fender (and hiding behind that persona is lame, whoeveer you are)...

FA isn't worth it to me, and at this rate, it never will be. The privacy of myself and my friends is much more important than your precious little site, and I see no reason whatsoever to entrust you with that kind of information. You and I both know that it wouldn't change anything if I did post proof, and this is just a coy game to you, as your argument from ignorance shows.

You want to call it double standards because I don't support pedophile art and yet I support tasteful photography? fine, call it double standards... but at least I have standards.

When you're begging for donations to keep this site alive, you won't get any from me, nor from any of the other charitable supporters you chased away with your lack of standards.


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## codewolf (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> FA isn't worth it to me, and at this rate, it never will be.



then i will say to you the same as i have said to others in this position saying the same thing as you....

*leave, were not stopping you.*

yes im a cold bastard and probably wouldnt make too much of a good admin, however if you think you could do better than the ones that run FA feel free to have a go, then tell me when you manage to satisfy every one of your multiple-thousand users.


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## Visimar (Jul 10, 2007)

> FA isn't worth it to me, and at this rate, it never will be.



Then, pray tell, why are you still here?


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> FA isn't worth it to me, and at this rate, it never will be.



All things aside, it's interesting that if you have such a high moral stance on Cub Porn you're still around, maybe you could say take a hint from someone who did leave on that moral stance, and like actually leave?

 Or are you one of those guys that complain about there being no food in the fridge as you put your feet up on your friend's couch while that person doesn't have you pay rent as your lazy @$$ hangs about?

I just don't see the reason for arguing if you're saying FA is not worth it.

I mean I have my problems with FA, but if it wasn't worth it, *I don't hang around*

Things not worth your time, you don't waste [time] on it, so what hypocrisy are you standing on?


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## nobuyuki (Jul 10, 2007)

Man, I sure hope if it means so little to him that he actually does get lost, but I get the feeling he will be back.  Probably with an "I need FA" excuse, and if we're really lucky, maybe it will be in a not-so-humble manner, too


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## Oni (Jul 10, 2007)

OOoooh the drama. It seems CaptainSaicin has hit a tender spot. ;d

Cub Porn is still disturbing despite its harmless nature.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 10, 2007)

Oni said:
			
		

> OOoooh the drama. It seems CaptainSaicin has hit a tender spot. ;d
> 
> Cub Porn is still disturbing despite its harmless nature.



Well considering the dude writes violent rape fics, I'd call the disturbing too. I don't see why someone gets a free pass on violent acts against other beings just because they got hormones and developed ya know? But see, I don't like either because I find them both disgusting and people into it frighten me. But right, the pretense of us worrying about fictional characters is rather ridiculous, which is why I got tired of the arguing from both sides during the old cub debate.

However, he still wants to bring up cub porn like it's the new scapegoat of other crap that happens on the site. I find that interesting. I find it interesting he says FA is not worth it but still comes here to argue. The smart people who found it so disgusting, said their peace, never looked back and left. Despite how I feel about their leaving they have my utmost respect for displaying some kind of dignity about the whole thing.


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Let me put it to you this way, fender (and hiding behind that persona is lame, whoeveer you are)...
> 
> FA isn't worth it to me, and at this rate, it never will be. The privacy of myself and my friends is much more important than your precious little site, and I see no reason whatsoever to entrust you with that kind of information. You and I both know that it wouldn't change anything if I did post proof, and this is just a coy game to you, as your argument from ignorance shows.
> 
> ...



So, you're a non-contributing member who wishes to leech bandwidth and further raise (drastically, I might add) the cost of the site and have an enormously detrimental impact on it's performance for all users?

Yeah, we're really gonna miss you.





			
				Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> CaptainSaicin said:
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Someone left for cub art?
Of the 6 or so people I was watching who threatened to leave, then said they would, when cub-art was passed..
As of a couple weeks ago, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has returned and is posting again.
Shows a lot about the solidarity of one's convictions.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 10, 2007)

Janglur said:
			
		

> Someone left for cub art?
> Of the 6 or so people I was watching who threatened to leave, then said they would, when cub-art was passed..
> As of a couple weeks ago, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has returned and is posting again.
> Shows a lot about the solidarity of one's convictions.



I pretty much had a wait and see stance, but like I said the morality argument had become so ridiculous, despite me really not like looking at those kinds of pictures, I ended up defending their right to be there, because of how people were trying to say things like "Well Rape is ok"...;;;;


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

Yeah.  The only ones, I feel, have any issues are the ones who justify the act, rather than the image.  And that goes on both sides of the fence.  Plenty of gore/splatterpunk art out there that disturbs me, but is obviously artistic.  And then there's the people who actually think we should be allowed to slaughter each other, for the 'goodness of man'.

As for cub:
The image is art.  It's not real, and is drawn for visual amusement and stimulation.  There's the justification.

And, the community spoke.  More were pro-art than pro-censorship.

Case closed.  More closed than most because unlike, basically, every other rule on FA, it was EXTREMELY heavily debated.


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## SammyFox (Jul 10, 2007)

Summercat said:
			
		

> This site is called FUR-Affinity, not RealWorld-Affinity.



I could say the same about DeviantArt but again, why is it called DeviantArt and not EveryoneArt? ;D


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## imnohbody (Jul 10, 2007)

Visimar said:
			
		

> CaptainSaicin said:
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Cuz y'all keep paying attention to him. 

As for the petition... :roll:


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

Haha, I love it when people try to put words in my mouth... I specify that in my priorities RL friends and privacy comes before FA, and I immediately get "DONT LET TEH DOOR HIT U ON UR WAY OUT LOL!" comments... ahhh, the smell of FA drama.

codewolf:

You may not be an administrator, but I am, and a very successful one at that. I've led a number of explosively popular communities in the past, and I still administrate a number of forums for others, although I've relinquished most of my administrative responsibilities on account of having to work for a living and not having the time to stay around. The real question here, is if I can run a community of over 900 users ON MY OWN and still manage to keep them ALL happy, why can't the expansive FA administrative team keep even a reasonably large fraction of users from leaving?

I know the answer, do you?

and Janglur:

I was a contributing member here. I even organized several drives to help fund FA back before the whole cub art fiasco. However, after that, I no longer had any reason to support this site. I supported FA because I wanted it to be successful and retain the artists I like, and attract more so I could watch them... but then the administration made some really bad decisions, and instead of bringing in the people I liked, FA started driving them away in droves. Now, when I ask an artist I know if they're going to get an FA gallery, they always tell me they won't, for personal reasons or reasons of policy... but we all know what those reasons are.

No, my beef is not with the cub art; it's with the way in which the situation was handled: poorly, and without tact or due consideration. The admins made the wrong decision from a community standpoint, and they went about it the wrong way. It's over and done with -- they can't take it back, and yet they're even now making a similar mistake.... 

Have they weighed the costs and benefits? have they considered the community impact? assessed the consequences or researched better long-term solutions or alternatives?

No. They've just done the same thing they've done in the past, and modified the policy to suit their current interests at the community's expense, and once more they've done it poorly, without tact or due consideration.

Oh, and Arshes Nei (who chews in public), don't try and judge me by stories you've never even read. That's pretentious.


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Haha, I love it when people try to put words in my mouth... I specify that in my priorities RL friends and privacy comes before FA, and I immediately get "DONT LET TEH DOOR HIT U ON UR WAY OUT LOL!" comments... ahhh, the smell of FA drama.
> 
> codewolf:
> 
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Funny.  You say these.  But, where's the proof?
You seem to use a lot of nonexistant evidence.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

You sound like a conspiracy theorist -- "where's the proof?"

If "proof" is all you care about when confronted with my experience and logic, then I'm not going to waste my time with you.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 10, 2007)

I recall your journals on cub porn saying otherwise. Whine whine "my favorite artists will leave" blah blah blah blah.

I'm saying you're a hypocrite by getting upset over the cub porn when there is much more disgusting stuff out there too. So yeah, pot, kettle, black.


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## SammyFox (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> You sound like a conspiracy theorist -- "where's the proof?"
> 
> If "proof" is all you care about when confronted with my experience and logic, then I'm not going to waste my time with you.



things are simple.

1)

proof you did admin websites where everyone was happy.
                                                                             +
proof your "friend" did get arrested over hentai.

or 2)

keep saying bullshit and look like a clown to the rest of us.


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

Exactly.

If this evidence is supposed to prove your experience and logic.Â Â Then where's the evidence?

If the evidence is the proof of your credibility, and there is no evidence shown...
Then you have shown no credibility.


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## SammyFox (Jul 10, 2007)

Janglur said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> 
> If this evidence is supposed to prove your experience and logic.  Then where's the evidence?
> 
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meep


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

You apparently didn't read my journal very well, Arshes, or you missed the entire point.

As I've said only three times so far in this thread...

My friends
My privacy
> FA.

I am not obligated to give you ANY personal or professional information about myself or my company, nor would I want to. With the way you people handle everything, I prefer to distance myself as much as possible from this place both personally and professionally. 

You want personal information from someone about what they do away from here, ask someone who doesn't care about their life outside of furry drama.


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## SammyFox (Jul 10, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> You apparently didn't read my journal very well, Arshes, or you missed the entire point.
> 
> As I've said only three times so far in this thread...
> 
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I refuse to listen to liars. have a nice day. n_n


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

Know what happens if you submit evidence in a court case, then fail to present the evidence?

You get your entire argument stricken from the record, and could be held in contempt.  And you can damn well garuntee your credibility is destroyed and case lost.


And so we have today.  G'day.  Try back next month.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

FA is not a court, and believe it or not, you're not my judge, so don't tread where you don't belong.



			
				SammyFox said:
			
		

> I refuse to listen to liars. have a nice day. n_n


 Tell you what, Sammy... you give me your real name, address and place of business, and after I've used it to get you fired from your job, steal your identity and make you forever unemployable, I promise I'll post some proof for you.


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## DarkMeW (Jul 10, 2007)

First off I'd like to thank Arsh for stating what his stories were before I clicked on his page to see the 'content' of his work. You saved me from what I'm sure would be an unpleasant experience. 

Jangual, I happen to be one of the people that stopped posting on FA's main site because of the change in policy and I'm not nor will I be posting artwork to FA specifically because of the policy change. Of the handful of artists I knew that actually stated they'd leave FA because of it, only one has posted anything to FA since then and those post were done as a joke. I and others don't post because that specific change in policy wasn't about just content but about completely changing and harming the concept of the community on FA. I didn't want to have my artwork associated with this site after that, which was my choice, however don't have a problem with a great number of people here so I felt no need to personally leave. The people that were against it but are still posting on the main site were often on the fence of leaving or placated by proposed filters or other methods of avoiding the content. I'm sure there are those that were hypocritical or just felt they overacted, however it's not even close to being able to dismiss all of them for lack of solidarity to their convictions. As with many things it was never so black and white, yet it seems people are always trying to paint that debate as such. 

As for what is currently brought up, even though judging by CS's posts I dought he's willing to look at anything objectively, I'm still going to try. Clean artistic photos are tolerated, if not encouraged, on FA. The problem seems to be in defining anything that comes out of your camera phone as 'artistic photos.' This is the difference between Artist Photography and snap shot images. 10x of near identical or the same snap shot is not any sort of artistic expression. Comparing that to Cub Art is completely incorrect, since in order to draw one must master some degree of artistic expression and the technical aspects of art, while all you have to master for snap shots is the ability to point the camera and press a button. You would have to have applied a fare amount of the artistic principles in taking the photo in order for it not to be a snap shot. Even if a drawing isn't proficient in technique, learning how to apply those techniques in art is still present. The same is for photography, you have to show that you are trying to develop the techniques rather then just pointing and clicking. 

Although you don't feel they are being fair the administration has shown that they are willing to work with people in a reasonable manner and often show other methods of posting sed snap shots without draining FA's resources. So you don't have to get so upset over it, you just have to change your options a little. Saying that this thread is a petition is meaning less if for no other reason then you never stated an argument or objective to this petition other then you don't like cub art. Added to the fact you started this so called petition, with single line question. If you want to be taken more seriously I suggest you formulate a well thought out argument that doesnâ€™t rely on just, because I donâ€™t like it.


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## Janglur (Jul 10, 2007)

Really?

Don't want to associate with FA?


Funny.  I thought this thread was on FA...


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 10, 2007)

DarkMeW said:
			
		

> <cut>



First of all, thank you for your post. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one left here who knew or cared anything about professionalism. 

It may not have been clear, but the first post of this thread was initially a satirical response to another thread on which it was relevant. Yak decided unceremoniously to move it here, where it apparently caused much drama and confusion. The 'petition' is really in the suggestions forum, and I was not the one who started it.

I understand completely the pretense of the new policy and what it is aimed at. I was not arguing that, nor was I intending to compare photographs with cub art. I also agree that a reduction in pointless snapshot spam is important, nevertheless I am at odds with the methods of control.

My objective was simply to express my disapproval of the administrative procedure for dealing with it. The analogy was with respect to this process, as my disapproval with the handling the cub art fiasco had a parallel to this one.

And finally addressing the off-topic tangent, for the record, I never recommend my stories to anyone unless I know them personally well enough to know they'll enjoy them. They are however clearly and concisely marked both in the image preview and description so that potential readers know exactly what they're getting into, and none of them mention violence or rape, because that's not what they contain. They _are_ sexually graphic, and I do my best to limit exposure to people who are not inclined to enjoy them, but nevertheless I have received numerous positive comments from people who personally detest violence and rape, specifically. I suspect that Arshes Nei has never read any of my stories, and is only attempting an ad-hominem argument against my character based soley upon their erroneous interpretation of my warnings and disclaimers.

If you want to judge me based upon my stories, it's probably because you're intolerant. If you're going to be that way, however, at least do me the justice of reading them first before passing judgment. Doing so based on rumors or speculation is pretentious and disrespectful. Please don't do that.


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## Oni (Jul 11, 2007)

And the plot unfolds... ^.^


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 11, 2007)

Nah I remember the journals pretty clearly, gathering petitions of artists who will leave, all that community rah rah stuff.

Then you had to play poker with the morality play, and then introduce famous artists guest speaking for a cause, it was like some really bizarre celebrity event of bs. Self importance, of if I have "insert famous artist name here" it will show that darn FA administration!

But I also remember verix getting banned for cussing you out after you called him a pedophile for defending the decision.

So yeah, you can play revisionist history all you want, but some of us have pretty long memories.


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## Oni (Jul 11, 2007)

Well, hopefully a solid comprehensive site policy is formed for FA users, so people can merely check with the rules to see if their creations are agreeable to policy standard. I would hate to see FA drown in loopholes, there are many anthropomorphic animal or furry based communities online which people can retreat to.

Interesting history brief Arshess. ^.^


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## DarkMeW (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> DarkMeW said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was unaware of any previous connection to another thread since I saw no mention of it. I do understand why they moved it into the rants and raves section though. Since it didn't have a clear intent, it seems more of a complaint based on a desire to express your displeasure rather then to garner a movement with other people on the boards. It's perfectly understandable as to why under those conditions they would move it. I don't think it was anything malicious on Yak's side, if that was your impression. 




> My objective was simply to express my disapproval of the administrative procedure for dealing with it. The analogy was with respect to this process, as my disapproval with the handling the cub art fiasco had a parallel to this one.



That portion just wasn't conveyed well, which just happens sometimes. The way it came off was a just a rant towards Cub Art rather then a comparative relation to the methods employed by the administration. Granted the admins are far from perfect, I've stated before that they made a lot of mistakes in handling the way they presented the cub art debacle (which is why I refer to it as a debacle and not a debate), the problem is the application of the AUP and the cub art debacle had completely different effects and intentions. Not to mention the fact it doesn't help when ever 'cub art' is brought up it's immediately taken as an assault and an opinion against it is often hounded with no mercy. (which was one of the main fears that the people for cub art brought up last year, the fear that they'd be hounded for supporting it, however after it was allowed they are perfectly content on hounding the people that mention they were against it.)

As I stated previously the adimn have shown they are willing to work with people. Even if sometimes the adims are not perfect in handling a situation, they often are willing to still listen. The AUP is still in flux since they allow people to suggest alterations or clarifications. Of course it might be an uphill battle sometimes.



> If you want to judge me based upon my stories, it's probably because you're intolerant. If you're going to be that way, however, at least do me the justice of reading them first before passing judgment. Doing so based on rumors or speculation is pretentious and disrespectful. Please don't do that.



Actually I was going to look at the content of any photos and or images/stories on your page to get a better idea of where your are coming from. Yes I would use that as a factor to judge you and/or your opinions since it helps put them into context. I make no excuse for judging people by what they present, both in works and communication. People might dribble out 'don't judge a book by it's cover' which I would agree with, for a book. But people are and should be judged by their works, communications, and interaction. 

My comment to Arsh was true, even if they are just stories about sex. I don't find reading those sorts of thing enjoyable, unless they are funny in some way or if sex is a minor part. I don't really, to use the term 'get off', on porn, I'm more interested in the technical aspects or the way it's conveyed rather then it's content. I don't really read much of what's on FA because of just that. Of what I've read it was rarely well written and often is just a mastibatory fantasy. I've tried to draw pron before, I found it incredibly boring and it didn't keep my interest. Just the way I am. So I thanked her since I have no desire to read sexualized works, rape or otherwise. 




			
				Janglur said:
			
		

> Really?
> 
> Don't want to associate with FA?
> 
> ...



Rather then just automatically trolling you might have tried reading. 

I clearly stated I don't wish my *artwork* to be associated with a site that would allow that content. I have no problem with most of the people here, however I will not post my artwork. Since I do illustrations that are often relating to childhood imagery, such as my current project which is a illustrated children's book, I find it completely inappropriate and offensive to have my artwork on a site associated with such content. 

What you are saying is akin to someone say to you, 'because you identify yourself as a furry (not human) you should never be allowed near human beings again.


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## Dragoneer (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> I am not *obligated *to give you ANY personal or professional information about myself or my company, nor would I want to.


Nor are we obligated to listen to facts you refuse to stand behind. We're more than willing to listen to reason. _ "Because I said so" _is neither reason, fact, nor an argument winner. If you want change, stand behind the reasons for said change, give us something solid to work off of, not merely "I hate FA, it sucks, blah blah blah." Stating Fact X and then refusing to give _any evidence whatsoever _that Fact X even exists, especially with the allegations you're implying, is not going to fly.

We're more than willing to work with the community -- it's the only way we can improve, but in order for that to happen, you have to work with us as well.


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## Bokracroc (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> You apparently didn't read my journal very well, Arshes, or you missed the entire point.
> 
> As I've said only three times so far in this thread...
> 
> ...



I work for Pixar and I own a Lamborghini. If you want your Rep. to be effective here, you have to prove it. Otherwise you're a raving nobody nutjob just like everyone else.

Also, can someone point out where all this Cub Porn is hiding? From memory, I remember seeing 8-12 pics over the last 3 months.


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## Janglur (Jul 11, 2007)

Bokra:

It's one of those 'theoretical evils' type issues.Â Â People weren't actually offended by any they saw, nay, in fact, few ever could quote them.Â Â But they were offended by the idea.

Someone brought up the issue and called for it's ban.Â Â Many concurred.Â Â And FA encouraged debate on it, while they made the final decision.Â Â They wanted to piss the least people off.Â Â Once the arguments boiled down to the same people with clear agendas and everyone worthwhole had their peice, they did just that and made the decision that pissed the least people off.
Cub art would not be banned.

So a bunch of folks said they'll leave to other places.Â Â The most hularious fact is that with the exceptions of DA and Yerf, every place they named also allowed cub art.

And to further add insult to injury, most of them have come back tails-between-legs after realizing this, and snuck in through the back door.

So the initial observation was that people were more pro-art than pro-censorship and the rules remained as they were reguarding cub art.Â Â And that was reinforced when well over half those threatening to leave, didn't.Â Â And further laid to rest as those who did, returned.
I'd say, overall, there's maybe two hundred people who actually left and haven't returned as of now, out of the 40k or so there at the time.



Furthermore, it's a point of a LOT of butthurt and anger.Â Â The only people who bring it up as an argument do so solely as a 'slipper slope' argument or 'greater evils' argument, both of which are falsely founded in the first place, for the pure reason of trying to either discredit FA's moral image or use shock-factor to stir up drama to grief the staff who have to clean up the thread-bog.

Now, i'd like to politely request everyone let that issue lay to rest and address the issue being raised here, until we can put that to rest too.


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## codewolf (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> codewolf:
> 
> You may not be an administrator, but I am, and a very successful one at that. I've led a number of explosively popular communities in the past, and I still administrate a number of forums for others, although I've relinquished most of my administrative responsibilities on account of having to work for a living and not having the time to stay around. The real question here, is if I can run a community of over 900 users ON MY OWN and still manage to keep them ALL happy, why can't the expansive FA administrative team keep even a reasonably large fraction of users from leaving?
> 
> I know the answer, do you?



haha , i said i am not an administrator on this site, not that im not/have never been an administrator full stop.

oh would yoiu care to link me to the sites you have supposedly administrated, with references of those who you administrated with, your moderating team even?? or are you just talking a load of bollocks again? oh, sorry, my fault, you managed to run it all on your own with no help from anyone yet you've stepped down now and the beards runniong itself with 900 users??.... thats quite an impressive trick, you'll have to teach me that one some day

just to emphasise


> reasonably large fraction of users from leaving


you know the exact number that are leaving? feel free to enlighten the rest of us. cos i was *SURE *it wasnt much more than a few % of users


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## yak (Jul 11, 2007)

Codewolf, that's kind of hostile on your part, don't you think? 

It's not necessary to turn this thread into the CaptainSaicin vs. the pro-FA'ers. We need neither zealotry nor the silly snowball fight you're playing. CaptainSaicin asked to put it to rest, and so you all should.

Expressing opinions is one thing, but attacking your so-called opponent for their opinions even if they are wrong or you find them to be such is not going to move this thread any further to it's original issue's resolution. All it may lead to is a threadlock and  (2)[split] FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints) thread created.

Keep your posts civil people and respect the opinions of those who disagree with you. 
Neither of you are 100% right anyway.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 11, 2007)

Arshes Nei:

[link], since you apparently need a refresher.

It was and is a point essay detailing logical reasons for not supporting the cub art ruling and debunking the logical fallacies employed by its supporters.

The fact that it used a list of people who said they would be leaving as supporting evidence for the last (i.e., least important) point in its primacy theory list does NOT make it in any way a threat of people leaving nor an appeal on those terms.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51387/#cid:322791

And you can read through that entire thread if you want, but you will find that I never once called anyone a pedophile in it, nor have I ever in my time here.

Stop with the straw-man and ad-hominem attacks against me. If you're going to disagree with me, fine, but do it without lying about my position or attacking my character.

DarkMeW:

Well spoken, and for the most part agreed...
As for your last point, however, I would contend that you should judge an _Artist_ or _Author_ by his or her artistic works, but a _Person_ you should judge by deeds alone.


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## yak (Jul 11, 2007)

Before this goes any further, i'd like to humbly ask you to _put the cub issue to rest already_. This thread is not about it.


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## SammyFox (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Stop with the straw-man and ad-hominem attacks against me. If you're going to disagree with me, fine, but do it without lying about my position or attacking my character.



that's the perfect word. "character".

acting like you are a fallen god and then refusing to prove it? ha, that's rather stupid. how many buys the stuff yo babble anyway?

I'll tell you.

0.

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.

No one.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 11, 2007)

Cap' uhh no I don't need a refresher. You missed the entire journal was about attacking logical fallacies WITH logical fallacies. You didn't debunk anything. This could be about ice cream or what not, so the cub debate really isn't the issue. The issue is *you were being a hypocrite*

Right brain fighting Left brain stuff does end in failure when creating art. When trying to make a leap why the right brain decided to draw something because the oh so opinionated left brain has a few things to say kills an argument about the reasons why people draw what they do. 

When you called someone a pedophile for presenting an argument, you really did lose out. End of story. It makes you a hypocrite back then, it still goes for today. You also show no remorse, or even apologetic about the whole thing. If it was just a "debate" that's what makes the whole thing really wrong.

So trying to equate one with the other for the argument about the AUP is ridiculous, and it's really something you shouldn't even try to stand behind.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 11, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Cap' uhh no I don't need a refresher. You missed the entire journal was about attacking logical fallacies WITH logical fallacies. You didn't debunk anything. This could be about ice cream or what not, so the cub debate really isn't the issue. The issue is *you were being a hypocrite*


I guess this whole intelligent debate thing must be new to you. Perhaps you should work on it more.



			
				Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> When you called someone a pedophile for presenting an argument, you really did lose out. End of story. It makes you a hypocrite back then, it still goes for today.


See, there's that lying thing again that I was just talking about. Quit making shit up about what I said. 



			
				SammyFox said:
			
		

> <snip>


Go to hell.


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## SammyFox (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> SammyFox said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you're coming with me.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading comprehension must be your weakpoint. Attacking an argument calling it a logical fallacy when you present more logical fallacies, is not a debate. You can dress it up pretty on a soapbox all you want. The argument was still a failure due to what I just said and am now repeating -logical fallacy against logical fallacy, doesn't work.


			
				CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If an intelligent debate is about cussing and swearing at other users and losing your cool, I wonder pray tell why you're telling me to brush up on *my skills*? You're not presenting anything here with tact or intelligence. 

But I guess you think that just because the thread is on the wayside, someone wouldn't remember the dialog you had with verix.


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## codewolf (Jul 11, 2007)

@ Yak, My bad, im gonna step outa this thread now..


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 11, 2007)

Would you even know a logical fallacy if it hit you in the face, Arshes? If you can't even get something as straightforward as the *FACTS* right, why should I assume you know much about *LOGIC*?

I remember the conversation with Verix perfectly. I simply stated that the people who said they were going to leave meant it, and he responded with half a page of "FUCK YOU!"s and related colorful language aimed at me. *THAT'S* why he was banned, and it had NOTHING to do with anything I said. I never once said anything to "call him a pedophile" as you claim, nor did I attack him personally with any insults or profanity. *HE* stepped out of line, and I didn't even respond to him when he did.

And no, you haven't seen me lose my cool. I don't lose my cool over internet drama, even from people like you and verix. I have better things to do with my life than worry about sophomoric forum-goers trying to call me a liar, because when it comes down to what some underage creeps think of me on FA, *I DON'T CARE!* I can afford not to care, because I keep my personal and professional life separate from such drama.

You want to call me a liar? go right ahead. You can believe whatever you want about me if it helps you sleep at night, but I know what I am, and that's none of your business.


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## Summercat (Jul 11, 2007)

With C.Simian flinging around e-poo like he is, it CAN"T HELP be him v.s. the rest of the thread.

I generally find Arshes to have clear and concise posts, and remains level headed. I find it odd when I'm aruging the opposite of what she is. Or he. I forget. Sorry Arshes.

But, lets see.

1. If you are a registered sex offender, your information is no longer private. We get a name - bam. We have address, and other information, by going to the sex offender database. Or something. But that information is public. Giving your friends name isn't going to be a sudden reveal, and by withholding it you are weakening your own position.

2. Arshes Nei is one of the few people on this forum that if we were to have an arguement I would go to extra lengths to make certain that I do not slip, fall, and start making personal attacks because I KNOW Arshes will do that same. I respect that. If Arshes is casting asperations as to your character, there's more truth than fallacies behind it, kinda an inverse Inconvinent Truth.

3. It is my firm belief that it is the right of all mankind to judge others, and to proclaim their judgements. However. Only the AUTHORITIES, however they may be set up, have any authority or jurisdiction to actually DO anything than proclaim a judgement. Therefore, we can judge you all we want. 

4. I love numbered posts.

5. Preyfar has said BISS is not logic or arguement. Bokracroc has said 'prove your words'. You've laughed at this idea, then wonder why we're not respecting you?

6. I, too, have run communities. I was the forum and chatroom moderator for EmpireQuest, a browser based game with x-thousand players. And? WHat's your point? FA admins DO listen to people here, and so far I don't see any of the Personage Worship that signifies the first step in the Admin-Member divide that eventually brings communities down...



Look, there are some issues with the administrative process at Fur Affinity. I don't think ANYONE really believes that there aren't masses of wrinkles to iron out. But it is the opinion of the majorty of users that they can be ironed out - please do not decide for us that the FA shirt is to be thrown out.


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## Summercat (Jul 11, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Would you even know a logical fallacy if it hit you in the face, Arshes? If you can't even get something as straightforward as the *FACTS* right, why should I assume you know much about *LOGIC*?
> 
> I remember the conversation with Verix perfectly. I simply stated that the people who said they were going to leave meant it, and he responded with half a page of "FUCK YOU!"s and related colorful language aimed at me. *THAT'S* why he was banned, and it had NOTHING to do with anything I said. I never once said anything to "call him a pedophile" as you claim, nor did I attack him personally with any insults or profanity. *HE* stepped out of line, and I didn't even respond to him when he did.
> 
> ...



Uhm.

If you don't care, as you stated, then why are you posting this with such vehemence and energy?


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 11, 2007)

Summercat said:
			
		

> If you don't care, as you stated, then why are you posting this with such vehemence and energy?



*I'M SORRY, I GUESS ACCENTUATING KEY WORDS TO SOLIDIFY MY POINT USING BOLD COUNTS AS VEHEMENCE AND ENERGY. TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST, I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT EITHER.*

I'm not here to prove anything, hence, as I've only stated five times now in this same thread, I'm not offering proof at the expense of my privacy.

I offered my opinion in the form of a satirical comment. I don't need proof of anything for my opinion to be valid. It's an opinion.

I gave an example of a reason I have my opinion, and you demand proof. Well guess what? I don't care if you believe me or not, and I don't have to prove anything.

And you're welcome to go looking through all the databases to try and find the public records of my friend. I'm not supplying you with anything to identify him with, though, because that would breach both his privacy and mine.

His records may be *public*, but that doesn't mean I'm obligated to point them out to you so you can find him. I am very experienced with tracking people down on the internet, and since I value my privacy and don't want to be tracked down myself, I will not be supplying any information you or anyone else could use to do that. End of story. You can insult me, argue with me and call me a liar until you're blue in the face, but it won't make me change my mind.

I don't care if you or anyone else can verify it, and I most certainly don't care about that more than I care about my privacy.


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## Summercat (Jul 12, 2007)

CaptainSaicin said:
			
		

> Summercat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yup. Quite a bit of vehemnce and energy about something you claim, once again, to not care about.

Lets see... 

You say you don't need to offer proof for your opinion. Yet you stated as fact that your friend got arrested and charged with looking at hentai and hentai alone. That's not an opinion, that's a statement. Statements need facts to be proven, else the person stating it is either LIEING or going by second-hand sources and shouldn't be using that as an example.

You are not oblidged to point out his records, yes... but at the same time, it is not unreasonable for us to ask for them when you use it as a *statement of fact* during a dicussion/arguement. It is a bit unreasonable for you to say something as fact, then when asked for evidence, say "I can't do that."  If this WAS a court, you'd be in contempt and the 'evidence' would be thrown out.

You are not here to prove anything... you say as you started this thread and argued throughout the course of it. 

I hear the House of Pancakes is looking for a new waffle cook, you need a job?

And if anything you've used was satire and not ironic acerbic commentary, well, congrats, you've managed to get it over my head. And I thought I was capable of understanding such subtletys... Clearly I must be in the presence of a master, who has managed to hide all traces of it.

But I digress.

If you care more about both your friend's and your own's privacy, well... Why in the name of the seven hells did you bring up a personal matter as an example in an arguement?


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 12, 2007)

I never once said it was unreasonable for you to ask proof. What I did say, was it was unreasonable for you to continue demanding it every other post after I'd already said no. I asked you in so many words to drop it, and yet you persist at every post.



			
				summercat said:
			
		

> Statements need facts to be proven, else the person stating it is either LIEING or going by second-hand sources and shouldn't be using that as an example.



I demand proof that the WTC was brought down by terrorists. If you can't prove this, then you have no right to disagree with me when I say it was brought down by jews.

I demand proof that you are 21. If you can't post a scan of your passport or at least 2 forms of photo ID, then you're lying in your profile.


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## Bokracroc (Jul 12, 2007)

*INTELLIGENCE IS MEASURED IN HOW MUCH BOLDED CAPS YOU USE.*


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 12, 2007)

Alright, I apologize for bringing up the cub porn, this is more about the debate tactic itself and not whether or not it should be here, or rehashing an old decision. I just wanted to address the "debate" itself any why I found the journal one big logical failure.

Your debunks didn't really do much than say "this is my opinion of the matter" not an actual debunk of a myth or misconception. It may have been well worded so that you get people eating it up, but there are those that look at the crux of the argument which was, did you actually have evidence to the contrary or were you just using anecdotal information? From reading your arguments on the matter it was definitely more than the latter. "I wrote this well, therefore it is truth". Logical fallacy. Your opinion is not exactly logic per say. It can be formed from certain logic, but it is not logic itself.

Big logical fallacy was your debunk on trying to make one equate to certain behavior, but somehow one was more acceptable than the other. I'm sorry, but due to the fact there are morals that are based on personal beliefs or religion, it doesn't exactly equate to conclusions you reached. Especially on fictional characters. 

See my personal belief is that there are things I find revolting and depending on the way the "cub porn" is drawn, it is one of them. There are things I wouldn't think of as cub porn where another person may look at the same picture and think it is. So when I saw your arguments I could only shake my head because you really failed at trying to debunk anything. In fact, even your posts now are like *IF I TYPE BIG BOLD LOUDER WORDS AND MAKE MY KEYBOARD CLACK LOUDER MY POINT WILL BE MADE!!!!*

Your debate (read: campaigns) were politics, I just sat there wondering if anyone saw the irony that as much as people hate politicians and spin-doctoring, did they take a step back and realize they were engaging in the same behavior to prove a point that ended up having misconstrued views because of personal tastes. In the end that was the real question. 

The fact you're ranting and raving and pointing fingers in a game of Capture the flag, but I usually refer to this as Gerrymandering. A kind of pretending you have the upper hand by acting like you've staked more claim on a debate than you actually have. I find it rather amusing, I find it more so that you can't even keep your cool in such a thing.

You're only making yourself look worse, but I'm fine with that, Gentle sun always won over harsh wind aka blowhards.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 12, 2007)

what I find amusing, Arshes, is that you think your high horse can keep you above the shit storm, even while contributing to it as much as anyone else.

I also find it amusing that you outright lie about things expecting people to just take your word for it, and then go on talking after getting called on it as if you were the only one with any credibility.

Now you're even resorting to attacking me on the grounds that I write well? that's just pathetic.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 12, 2007)

Again, I see reading comprehension is a very big weak point with you. I said just because what you had said was on the basis of written well, it didn't exactly mean accurate information. However, you can persist in spouting back angry gibberish or actually address the points instead of some righteous indignation.


However, I think we're down to how many replies where this hasn't happened? Maybe I'm expecting too much, you're probably used to everyone just going with what you say instead of being challenged. Sorry, doesn't work that way with me.

Summercat, forgot to address you but yes I'm indeed a she.

Also, Summercat brought up a valid point, if you wanted privacy, wouldn't it have been wise not to bring private matters up? You can't have the cake and eat it too.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 12, 2007)

I'm just so tired of hearing you spout your bullshit that I haven't even been reading your posts lately, nor trying to debate anything. I guess you hadn't figured it out yet, so I had to come out and say it, or I'll keep getting topic reply notifications in my inbox.

have a nice day.


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## DarkMeW (Jul 12, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Alright, I apologize for bringing up the cub porn, this is more about the debate tactic itself and not whether or not it should be here, or rehashing an old decision. I just wanted to address the "debate" itself any why I found the journal one big logical failure.



I know this has been shown several times as a hot topic, however I don't think the topic of cub art shouldn't have such a stigma attached to it. First and most important thing about the topic, It's resolved. The decision was made a long time ago (in internet standards) so it's at this point, academic. Nothing apart from a complete change in US law is ever going to change the fact it's not only legal but excepted on this site. However, everything attached to that specific debate (aside of the actual art), I find not only fascinating, but is still relevant. From the way the debate was presented, to the completely twisted way each side took it, the rewriting of not only the history of it but of how each side was twisting the other side, even as Arsh put it as a tactic in present debates, all can easily happen again if there is no heed to its lessons.Â Â 

I'm sorry if people still use it as a panic button in arguments, but I don't care about the should or the shouldn'ts the argument anymore. It's the way the whole thing formed and played out that I'm truly astonished with. 


As far as the current debate, if either side isn't willing to let it go might I suggest laying your cards down on the table. Not slamming them down, just lay out the point and view you were trying to get across with out any of the previous baggage attached to it. It has drifted so far away from the original topic that there is little point in anything other then closing statements on the original topic, IMO. 




> ...Gentle sun always won over harsh wind aka blowhards.



I think I just found a new sig


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## Muse (Jul 12, 2007)

Fender said:
			
		

> What's your friends name? If he was arrested and charged, he will be listed as a sexual offender, and we can research the case to get further information (provided he was in the United States). Hentai is not grounds for an arrest, clear and simple. If artistic depictions of fantasty critters in compromising situations was illegal, minor or not, then entire websites like Cub Central would have been shut down ages ago.
> 
> Fur Affinity's server exists in the United States and abides by U.S laws and rules, and will do so. And we're in compliance.



Dwight Whorley?  Since he is, as far as I can find, the *only* guy to ever be charged with a hentai/lolicon related offense.  On the other hand, he was on parole for a sexual offense already, also had actual child porn in his possession, and his case was never appealed to a higher court.  Nor, as far as I can find, was any artist's rights/human rights legal defense group willing to touch the case with a ten foot pole (for obvious reasons).  

http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?s=3123260 <--The short, sweet sound-bite version.  You can dig up more (Wikipedia, etc.) with the right kinda search.  

Interesting to note that in the US (and Canada!) the 'without artistic merit' is still part of the litmus test for questionable material.  So you can still pretty much get away with whatever you want, if you can do it well enough.


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## yak (Jul 12, 2007)

I've been requested from both sides to put a stop to this thread.
Funny thing that. Since the involved parties show that just can't let it go, this thread is getting locked _if i see more flak_ between CaptainSaichin and the crowd.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 12, 2007)

yak said:
			
		

> I've been requested from both sides to put a stop to this thread.
> Funny thing that. Since the involved parties show that just can't let it go, this thread is getting locked _if i see more flak_ between CaptainSaichin and the crowd.



Quite honestly yak, maybe you should lock it. I don't see why this was to remain open if the statement is that one person is getting flak. The person came in to present an argument. That argument was heavily skewed so he got called on it. It's going to remain a sticking point so long as that person engages in this behavior.

Where is the real topic of this post then? It is frustrating to allow hit and run behavior where one party can say whatever they want, and can't have it challenged by another party because it is "flak". Of course you can't have someone cussed and sworn at, but honestly, look back at the posts and see who is doing it the most.

If a person wants to have a petition, then maybe that person should realize that said petition should be based on better points and arguments instead of "I don't like it" and "this gets to stay so I think so should this"

Otherwise, this thread is an admitted waste of time, and as DarkMew pointed out, the debate itself is more academic than pushing for actual change.


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## yak (Jul 12, 2007)

This thread is actually a split of the original "FurAffinity petition (AUP complaints)" thread.  The OP of the original thread, SammyFox,  asked me to move the discussion some place else, and so i did.

This thread was born out of flak. However, it served some purpose in clarifying the situation. Yes, it also gave birth to the fight between you and CaptainCaichin, but as long as it served that other purpose it was left open. 

"U"
"No U"
"No U"
"You MOM"
"YOURS TOO"
All too familiar. Neither of you show you can draw the line even when asked to. Yeah, you don't have to tell me that challenging others is not a bad thing, and you certainly came off looking more calm and reasonable in this case, but it takes two to tango, no matter how right one party and how wrong the other party can be.

Anyhow,


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## Summercat (Jul 12, 2007)

It takes two to tango, yup. So, we should have just sat here and let someone spout off patent nonsense as if it were fact? Monkey see bullshit, Monkey hear bullshit, Monkey calls bullshit...

Consider this a motion for locking as the temptation to write another reply to Captain Space Monkey is too great for me to resist. Eventually.


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## CaptainSaicin (Jul 12, 2007)

Just lock the damn thread. Between Arshes spewing lies out her ass and everyone else worshiping her bullshit, the sheer amount of inane stupidity in this thread has risen so high my brain is beginning to atrophy. 

"Heavily skewed argument" my ass. I offered a satirical reply to the other thread and got flamed for it. It's not my fault none of you kids can deal with satire without 'LOL FURRY DRAMA', so get the fuck over it.

You're not off the hook either, Yak, because there it was on-topic and here it's flamebait. You shouldn't have moved the damn thing. He was talking about your posts when he called off-topic, not mine.


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## yak (Jul 12, 2007)

```
When in doubt, use the banhammer
                     -- Someone who's not an admin on FA
```
We are all wrong here, and we know it.


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