# What is it to be gay/transgender



## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

I know I am opening a can of worms but please bare with me on this.

I have been watching a lot of films on the history of acceptance in america. Considering im american and only have access to my opinion, this is my only view of it. So there is that. My question is- What is it to be gay. When you are attracted to your SO what makes fire works go off. I am just better trying to understand. I accept all peoples. I have to admit that growing up it was told its a no no. So on and so forth. But one thing that kept bugging me "eating shrimp, eating pigs, wearing clothes made of two different materials" are all "abominations". So christians who use this- i fucking hate you with every organ i own. Why do people hate this. If it doesnt bother you why complain about it. 


The god I know wants us to love. Who we love i dont think matters. Compassion and love. Who you use it on shouldnt matter.


For transgenders. What is it for you to be transgender. When did you know that something "wasnt right". Will you change to feel more comfortable? Do you think medical science should invest more into SRAS? 


Also I fucking hope Fred Phelps dies. I dont care how but I hope his hate mongering is dead forever.


Again I mean this in the most respectable way, I just want to understand. Kill me, burn me, snort my ashes, IDK. I accept you :>


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## Tango (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm Tango_Delta and I approve this message.


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## Bliss (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Do you think medical science should invest more into SRAS?


Absolutely.


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## veeno (Jan 25, 2012)

I aint touchin this topic with a 10 foot pole.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

Lizzie said:


> Absolutely.




thats totally sexual re-asignment surgery




veeno said:


> I aint touchin this topic with a 10 foot pole.



THEN GET THE FUCK OUT AND STOP +1 POST COUNTING YOU CUNT


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

I don't necessarily like to label myself as "gay", because of peoples' reactions, but I guess that's what I am, more or less.  It's the same thing as being straight, I'd imagine, except just for the same gender.


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## BRN (Jan 25, 2012)

Up until a couple of weeks ago where I had some new experience I felt utterly confused with myself. I knew I appreciated the male body but wasn't quite sure to what degree.

I've had experience with females - my sexual history is all over the place tbh, it makes a confusing story - so I figured I couldn't _really_ be gay, right?

But yeah, being with a male? My mind had no qualms with it. There wasn't a sense of "rightness" and nothing "clicked" but in my mind I felt no disgust or self-resentment or anything that line.

In short, it felt exactly as if I was doing something as natural as sleeping.


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Being gay, to me, is nothing less than normal. Because I was never really straight, I don't know the difference. It just feels... _right_. Like the way things are supposed to be. Just the way I'm wired, so to speak.

What it means to be gay, to me, is just an attraction to the same sex. None of that "flamboyant" stuff, that's just a personality. Most people don't register in their minds that I'm gay because I lack the features of a stereotypical gay man. One person, whom I informed of my sexuality, told me a week later that I needed to get a girlfriend. It was almost as if he forgot entirely. Anyways, I'm rambling. Bottom line; being gay is only a difference in attraction. It has nothing to do with being flamboyant. In fact, I know of a gay guy that plays football and does the same things as straight men.

TL;DR Being gay is entirely natural and only affects your sexual attraction, _not_ your personality. (Although, if you're naturally flamboyant, that's cool too.)


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## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I don't necessarily like to label myself as "gay", because of peoples' reactions, but I guess that's what I am, more or less.  *It's the same thing as being straight, I'd imagine, except just for the same gender.*




See I always wondered this. What kind of traits do you look for?


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## Kaibunny94 (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm Probably the worst person to comment as i'm one of these middle ground types and like all genders. To me being gay is just something that happens no two ways about it. Being Transgender as well i think is completely natural, I have thought about what it would be like to be a woman now and then and perhaps thats the reason i like boys as well as girls and such. Some people feel the need to take it further and if everyone accepts them then there are no problems. For people how they are is just how they are.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 25, 2012)

When thinking about it deeply, I am an asexual with sexual needs. :V

Kill me now. :c


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

I like girls/guys/transgendered. I like androgynous beauty quite a lot. I like people for who they are on the inside and how they act outwardly. Their private parts are secondary (though I do have a preference there). I have never been in a relationship with another girl but I have kissed one... and to me it was just the same as kissing a boy, only not scratchy and more delicate.


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

I myself am not gay, but I am bisexual and so I can relate to this somewhat.

Honestly, I never considered myself anything but straight until fairly recently. I'd always noticed other guys but I had never really thought of it as anything but just a normal noticing so and so is attractive etc. You know, like objective observations. But...one day I started noticing I wasn't being quite so observant and that I was checking out an acquaintance of mine. I freaked a little bit but I finally realized that it's something I'd always done but never really noticed. It's really not all that different from regular attractions. 

Need more just ask I can probably go on for awhile. I ramble.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

what being gay means to me is simply that I get to look at all the good looking young men around me whenever I want, that was what first attracted me to it, and potentially, also I get to spend time with such a person some time, having a bit of fun... you know. The idea of being that physically intimate with a woman has never appealed to me, not in the slightest, but men, yes, I can see a few ways of enjoying myself there, and to me, many are more physically attractive too. There's nothing wrong with it at all, of that I am sure.
Since I realised all these thoughts were suddenly bubbling up inside of me, I now feel a lot better, I am more comfortable with myself, and more confident too, it shows in the way I stand and walk, the first few weeks when I passed myself in the mirror, I thought I looked older, more mature. But mostly it feels like I've settled into a more comfortable position within myself.
As well, one nice thing is that I am a part of something else, something bigger than myself, alongside many other people, some of them I may not like, but that is not the point, I have recently started to gain an appreciation for labels for this very reason, and this is one of mine.
As for what I look for in a potential partner, or even in someone worth a third look whilst passing them on the street, I have no idea, something about them just catches my attention, no way of describing it, nothing unusual or different about them, but yet, there it is. That and of course a nice body, someone I enjoy spending time with, someone I can share various interests with and so on...

Most of all, though, it is my chance to find that special someone, and to spend time with them. There can't be anything wrong with that.
My only regret is that it took me so long to realise all this. so many thijngs I could have done growing up, so many interesting stories other people tell, experiences I could have had, people I could have been with, all missed out. This time next year I'll be close to graduating and going out ino the world as an adult, hopefully things will have changed by then. at the very least, I need a boyfriend to introduce to my parents, as part of my plan to not have to explain to them.


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> See I always wondered this. What kind of traits do you look for?



Physical: healthy body (not necessarily skinny or fat), generally attractive features, and I do have a thing for darker skin tones.
Non-physical: still some femininity (as in, not looks like a dude), not a drama llama, a generally content and satisfied/happy person.


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## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

Traits as in straight up turns us on, or that we're attracted to, that we enjoy?


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

I've always wondered... to people that are strictly gay, what is it about the opposite gender that just turns you off? I am bi/pan/whatever so I can't think about it objectively, 'cause I like both.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

Carnie said:


> Traits as in straight up turns us on, or that we're attracted to, that we enjoy?




Pretty much whatever it takes for you to love that person be it physical or emotional


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> I've always wondered... to people that are strictly gay, what is it about the opposite gender that just turns you off? I am bi/pan/whatever so I can't think about it objectively, 'cause I like both.



I really don't know, I don't think there's anything, really, as such. I just don't find any specific woman to be attractive in that way. So far as I can tell, they're just ordinary people, same as most others. Also, the physical side, that has never appealed to me, can't think why, but then, honestly I can't think why it should.


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## Kaibunny94 (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm Pan but there are parts of both male and female that turn me off. Sometimes I am more straight cause boys are not something im into at that time sometimes its the other way around.


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## Kellie Gator (Jan 25, 2012)

As a bisexual, I guess I like girls because they're a bit more delicate in appearance than men, who are often quite rough in appearance. I hope to god that doesn't sound sexist. >_>

As for transexualism, I don't know. I used to believe I was merely gay but the thought of rubbing up against another guy with this body just felt gross and wrong to me after a while and fantasies were often forced. That's when I started to realize it was more about myself than what gender I was attracted to, I suppose.


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> I've always wondered... to people that are strictly gay, what is it about the opposite gender that just turns you off? I am bi/pan/whatever so I can't think about it objectively, 'cause I like both.



I certainly love women, but as friends. Women are some of my best friends, and I love being around them, but I feel no sexual attraction to them whatsoever. It's not even a turn off, as my mind never even goes to that subject. It's just a lack of a turn on.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

shteev said:


> I certainly love women, but as friends. Women are some of my best friends, and I love being around them, but I feel no sexual attraction to them whatsoever. It's not even a turn off, as my mind never even goes to that subject. It's just a lack of a turn on.




I have had gay friends that are like EWWWW VAGINA EWWW and hate girls cause we have vags. Are they really that bad?


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## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Pretty much whatever it takes for you to love that person be it physical or emotional



They have to be reasonable, and mature. They have to be independent, and well rounded. They have to be sympathetic, understanding. Hard working. Most of all, fun.
These tend to be things that people look for in general relationships, though.

I guess I could say that I like guys to be a bit on the feminine side, as long as they aren't to the point that they're stereotypical, and I've always loved shorter people  Long hair is always nice, too.

In a way I feel more at home, I could say, when I'm with a guy than with a girl. It's tough to explain. I just get more physically and emotionally attached to them. :X


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

Bisexual, but leaning heavy gay has taught me three things.

1) Guys acting gay is sexy
2) Guys acting dominative and straight is sexy
3) Guys is sexy

In seriousness though, I don't try to think my sexuality matters much. Honestly, it's easy for me to forget about it at times, but when I do imagine sex, I imagine romanticism as a man and a woman, and pure sexuality or innocent sexual revelations as gay. I find heterosexual sex beautiful and disgusting, and I find homosexual sex arousing and disgusting.

To me, gay romance just sometimes isn't as meaningful to me. Maybe how I was first introduced to it caused me to lose value in it, but even though I can believe that there is "love" out there for me in a man, I just don't find as much romanticism in it at times.

I've also thought about a lot of what homosexuality has taught me to believe. Sometimes homosexuality and its' related parties cause me to think that I have to be more submissive or girly, and at times I have put drag and transgender habits into extreme consideration, but at the same time it's conducive to help me break barriers that society set. I don't really understand who I'm trying to be and if my sexuality really has to have such a pivotal impact on that. I've conclusively dreamed of being a modest but somewhat masculine person, and the thoughts of what I wish to accomplish with another man muddles that image.

For a long time, I denied any existence of homosexuality in my system and this is where i come to fault with the theory that people choose to be homosexual. If i could make the choice, I would probably still be heterosexual. But the original decision to accept myself as a non-hetero came from physical interests, not from personal ones.

And DD, I don't find the female parts to be proper for an erotic situation. I find the exposure of vagina and cleavage in a pornographic fashion is strange and odd to me. It goes back to what I said about it being very "romantic" for me, and erotic/sensual depictions of the body parts are strange and unwelcome to me.

Perhaps I am completely gay upon this consideration. Maybe I'm not mentally gay, seeing as I would be willing to encounter sex with women as long as it wasn't shallow and meaningless, but my physical attractions have led me to show what I actually find enjoyable to see in an erotic light.


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I have had gay friends that are like EWWWW VAGINA EWWW and hate girls cause we have vags. Are they really that bad?


Yeah, that is kind of what I was getting at. Just using gay men as an example. Why are vaginas EWWWW and a penis is YAAAAAAY!!!! I like both, so I can't say that I think one is gross or that I don't like it. XD

Not saying that all men hate girls 'cause we have vaginas. But more, why isn't it as awesome as penis to you? Curiosity!!!!!


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I have had gay friends that are like EWWWW VAGINA EWWW and hate girls cause we have vags. Are they really that bad?



Not bad, no. I just... lack the ability to appreciate female anatomy. Your friends were probably saying that in a joking matter. It's not like we think you have cooties, but we just don't have the ability to be attracted to women.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I have had gay friends that are like EWWWW VAGINA EWWW and hate girls cause we have vags. Are they really that bad?



I've seen a couple of pictures on the internet recently, and I think they aren't that nice to look at. But, I hear you can do interesting things with them on your own, not that I want one myself, or anything, but I guess I wouldn't have minded all that much either way.
Chances are, though, they're just messing around, or making a point, after attention or something, just because we get to do that.


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> Yeah, that is kind of what I was getting at. Just using gay men as an example. Why are vaginas EWWWW and a penis is YAAAAAAY!!!! I like both, so I can't say that I think one is gross or that I don't like it. XD
> 
> Not saying that all men hate girls 'cause we have vaginas. But more, why isn't it as awesome as penis to you? Curiosity!!!!!



Dunno. If I knew why I'd tell you. I just prefer penis and don't prefer vagina. Again, I'm not totally flamboyant. I don't speak in hyperbole.


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

I just find it odd when those parts need to be violated.

I guess I'm being a hypocrite for enjoying gay porn that has similar tendencies, but still.


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## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

since im bi i think i can still say something about the gay part of your question (see what i did there? ;D)
its simple really: its the same as being straight. you see another dude (or another gal when you are female) and you feel attracted to them just like a guy would feel attracted to a girl or vice versa. thats it, there is nothing else to it. at least that is how it works for me...

as for bringing religion into this: fuck that. as christopher hitches once said it: "im perfectly happy with people to have these toys and play with them at home and share them at home with others who want to play with them. but they are not to make ME play with these toys! dont bring the toys to my house, dont say my children must play with these toys, my toys are not allowed with their toys!"
it is THEIR believe, NOT MINE. they have NO RIGHT to label me because of that.

not to mention that christianity is without morality anyway and that christians worship a god who wants to see me being tortured for all eternity only because im not part of their special club which is a GIANT insult... WHATEVER. i applaud you that you dont judge people because of it^^


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

I don't understand the whole "submissive girly" deal. Makes no sense. I'm absolutely not girly (Well, in personality, but I do have a somewhat feminine body type) yet I'm gay. Why do gay guys have to be flamboyant? I don't.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

The theory seems to be that people act the way they believe others want them to act when they are trying to attract a partner, and therefore plenty of people follow the stereotypes of how they are meant to act without thinking about it.


A little part of me does sometimes wonder whether my attraction to male genetalia is in some way linked to my personal experiences with my own, and the enjoyment that has brought me...


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> not to mention that christianity is without morality anyway and that christians worship a god who wants to see me being tortured for all eternity which is a GIANT insult... WHATEVER. i applaud you that you dont judge people because of it^^



I complete dislike that viewpoint on Christianity. The original catholicism WAS based on a lot of human standards that are completely different today. The original authors were said to have gotten their ideas from God, but no doubt the human perspective changed those beliefs to become more REAL and ACCEPTABLE for the society. Additionally, the entity known as God is still considered to love all and so therefore religion seems to go against the entire theory of God, especially seeing as God, should he/she/it exists as an omniscient/omnipotent entity, would understand how to create the perfect function of existence, or at least the most understandably desired by God's perspective

Point being, don't get mad at higher beings for letting people try to understand them.


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## Dragonfurry (Jan 25, 2012)

I wouldnt know since I am straight. I think being gay in a third person definition is liking the same sex in both a attractive manner and a loving manner.


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

shteev said:


> I don't understand the whole "submissive girly" deal. Makes no sense. I'm absolutely not girly (Well, in personality, but I do have a somewhat feminine body type) yet I'm gay. Why do gay guys have to be flamboyant? I don't.


That's a matter of personality, not of sexuality. To suit that desired sexuality, their personality adds characteristics that would suit (in their minds) the ideal gay man.
When you think about it, you probably don't make any sense to a submissive girly gay.

That's not really adding to your sexuality, more so adding to how you wish to present yourself. So not really why "gay guys" have to be flamboyant, but how flamboyants are generally gay.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

An odd question I found myself wondering a couple of days ago, if your long-term partner is more physically attractive than you, has a better body or whatever, can you be jealous of them? Or, should they be jealous of you for getting to spend so much time with someone that looks like that?

Yes, my mind does some rather strange things at times, I can't seem to control it.


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I have had gay friends that are like EWWWW VAGINA EWWW and hate girls cause we have vags. Are they really that bad?


I have luckily never met people like that, but I'd find myself getting quite pissed off if I did.  I don't hate guys just because of what's in their pants.
...for the record, vagina is amazing.


Kitutal said:


> An odd question I found myself wondering a couple  of days ago, if your long-term partner is more physically attractive  than you, has a better body or whatever, can you be jealous of them? Or,  should they be jealous of you for getting to spend so much time with  someone that looks like that?
> 
> Yes, my mind does some rather strange things at times, I can't seem to control it.


I tend to get more, what's the word... territorial, I guess? about my girlfriend because hey, she's fucking hot.  She's going to Pride (and taking me with her, dear god help me) wearing nothing but a sports bra and jeans.  And maybe her fedora, too.  I'll be on edge all day because I'm scared of someone making a pass at her.


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## Ikrit (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> I've always wondered... to people that are strictly gay, what is it about the opposite gender that just turns you off? I am bi/pan/whatever so I can't think about it objectively, 'cause I like both.



i hated boobs growing up
and when i fist saw a vagina i was like "ew"
pretty much everything about women (no offense) sorta turns me off


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## BRN (Jan 25, 2012)

Personally I'm of the opinion that sexuality starts out as a _tabula rosa_ with the capacity to be brought either way. Experience shapes it.

I fooled around with some of my male childhood friends during sleepovers and shit, and I'm thinking that's what turned me gay. But I think sexual attraction is a state that doesn't differ because of a gender predilection - _it's the same feeling, following the same system_. 

And, uh, vaginas don't disgust me, but they have no appeal. They're about as interesting as the gills of a fish, and look similar. :V


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## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

shteev said:


> I don't understand the whole "submissive girly" deal. Makes no sense. I'm absolutely not girly (Well, in personality, but I do have a somewhat feminine body type) yet I'm gay. Why do gay guys have to be flamboyant? I don't.



Hate to stereotype, but all the gays I've met that have been flamboyant have also been some of the dumbest people I've met. Makes me so mad.


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

Ikrit said:


> pretty much everything about women (no offense) sorta turns me off


lol No offense taken! I am ok with people not liking vaginas... so long as they don't hate me just because I own one. I mean, it isn't like I am gonna show it to you or ask you to play with it. XDDDDD


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## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> I complete dislike that viewpoint on Christianity. The original catholicism WAS based on a lot of human standards that are completely different today. The original authors were said to have gotten their ideas from God, but no doubt the human perspective changed those beliefs to become more REAL and ACCEPTABLE for the society. Additionally, the entity known as God is still considered to love all and so therefore religion seems to go against the entire theory of God, especially seeing as God, should he/she/it exists as an omniscient/omnipotent entity, would understand how to create the perfect function of existence, or at least the most understandably desired by God's perspective
> 
> Point being, don't get mad at higher beings for letting people try to understand them.



i dont get mad at higher beings, i simply dont believe in them because of a complete lack of evidence.

my point is that these people claim that atheists have no morality because we dont believe in god and the bible and therefore have no foundation for a morality.
however, the bible tells you (next to the ten commandments) how to keep slaves, to stone your insolent children to death and that god ordered some of them to wipe out a village so that they can keep the virgins for themselves. when you ask these christians whether that is ok they usually say that it is not but "it also is in the old testament which is totally outdated" even though the ten commandments (which they do believe in) are in the old testament as well.
it makes no sense! they are cherrypicking what they want to believe in! and when you are picking the morals that you want but you still need that holy book as a foundation for your morality then you are without morals!
why dont they just change the bible when its so terribly outdated? because it is the word of god and when you change the word of god the whole thing becomes meaningless. because then you realize that MAYBE the whole thing was written by man afterall and has nothing to do with god.

not to mention that the whole idea of god is retarded, anyway.
we KNOW that humanity has its origin in africa roughly 100000 years ago. we also know that a giant mass extinction was going on around that time. only 5000 humans survived by out estimates. they were dying and hungry and no god was there to help them. they were on their own and guess what? they managed to pull through.
but then, 98000 years later, god decided to intervene. he planted his son into the middle east, *KILLED HIM OFF* and called it a day. "yup! thats gonna help them!"
it makes NO SENSE! and this retarded nonsense is the reason why gays cant get married these days... or can you name a different reason for that other than religion?


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

I wonder how many people here have any experience whatsoever as far as sex goes?  These are furries we're talking about, after all.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Growing up, I had no real interest in relationships of any sort, when I heard about people being asexual, I thought, this is me, and I was OK with that, because I didn't want anything more. I had before found that I thought some people looked quite nice, I could appreciate that, but no more. Then, I found that I was even more attracted than I had been before to pictures of men, and enjoyed being complimented by them and talking with them, though from there it took me some weeks to finally realise that I would be interested in a physical relationship of that sort, and then soon after to regret not having done so before, even though I had been quite happy with that choice up until then.
Oddly, this all started about two weeks after I remember thinking to myself that it might be interesting to be gay, that it sounded sort of fun, and perhaps nice to be a part of something, a larger group like that. So, what happened there..? Chances are, I'll never know for sure.


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## Ikrit (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> lol No offense taken! I am ok with people not liking vaginas... so long as they don't hate me just because I own one. I mean, it isn't like I am gonna show it to you or ask you to play with it. XDDDDD


that would just be pain stupid and sexist....
hating women because they have a vagina?
what is this? elementary school?


Lunar said:


> I wonder how many people here have any experience  whatsoever as far as sex goes?*  These are furries we're talking about,  after all*.


the only sex experience that most furries had is sexting :V


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I wonder how many people here have any experience whatsoever as far as sex goes?  These are furries we're talking about, after all.


I'm still technically a virgin, but I've done some...uh...things.

in my experiences:

Guys were much more on the table and a lot less romantic. Much more flirty and admittedly disgusting at times.

Girls I have gotten no where near as far with and at the same time it felt just as meaningful. It was that level of romanticism that I appreciate a lot more than the completely sexual aspects I had with guys.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

I've gotten as far as nudity and a little 'playing around' on a webcam before. But then, I am very new to all this, give me a little time. 

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable just being around other people, being shy as I am, but that, it felt nice, the two of us, almost together, I rather enjoyed it and wasn't even that nervous after the first few minutes.


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> I'm still technically a virgin, but I've done some...uh...things.
> 
> in my experiences:
> 
> ...



All I'm saying is, I don't think it's smart to jump on the gay bandwagon if you've never had any experience with either.  I've been farther with a girl than with a guy, but you never know for sure until you try a little of both and know what you like instead of shunning everything else.


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## Dragonfurry (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I wonder how many people here have any experience whatsoever as far as sex goes?  These are furries we're talking about, after all.



For me its one time. Not going into any details about it.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> All I'm saying is, I don't think it's smart to jump on the gay bandwagon if you've never had any experience with either. I've been farther with a girl than with a guy, but you never know for sure until you try a little of both and know what you like instead of shunning everything else.



Trouble is, I have no physical attraction to doing anything like that with a girl, don't know why, but I just really don't want to.

If I tried and found that I didn't actually enjoy being with a man in that situation, I don't know what I would do, because I really want to enjoy it, I like the idea, and if I couldn't, I really wouldn't be anything at all.


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I wonder how many people here have any experience whatsoever as far as sex goes?  These are furries we're talking about, after all.


I do. I've only ever had a couple of male partners, never a female partner (except that one kiss... which did happen during an encounter with a guy as well but she and I didn't do more than that).



Ikrit said:


> hating women because they have a vagina?
> what is this? elementary school?


Apparently! I saw this FA journal one time that was ranting about how gross girlbits were and many of the comments were talking about how they hate women. >___>


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## BRN (Jan 25, 2012)

I'll be honest, I had my first experience simply because I could and I didn't want to pass up the opportunity. I felt huge peer-pressure to dive into that world because, coming from an underpriveledged school, all I ever overheard were stories about this-guy-fucked-this-girl.

I just gave into heteronormativity, gave into her temptations and yeah, it was fun, in the sense that a new experience is fun, but there was no thrill and it felt awkward. I basically didn't care that I was having sex. It didn't feel right; it felt clunky and unintuitive compared to the fun I'd previously had with friends earlier in my childhood. 

 But I called it sex anyway and was all proud about it, despite feeling pretty conflicted about the whole thing. Yet those emotional problems just weren't present with males. No conflict presented itself. It was genuinely fun.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> Apparently! I saw this FA journal one time that was ranting about how gross girlbits were and many of the comments were talking about how they hate women. >___>



yeah, happens quite a lot. many FA users and many furries in general are actually very anti-straight and/or hate women! ive heard quite often that straight guys at cons got purposefully molested by gay guys and that they would make fun of girls there.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Carnie said:


> Hate to stereotype, but all the gays I've met that have been flamboyant have also been some of the dumbest people I've met. Makes me so mad.



I know, right?

I know like 3 guys attracted to the same gender. All are amazingly flamboyant and stupid. It irritates me since I value intelligence and dislike stereotypes.

I am not a flamboyant person. I pretty much act neutral. I don't act girly or masculine.


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> many furries in general are actually very anti-straight and/or hate women!


I could never wrap my head around the anti-straight people. I mean... they don't want people to be anti-gay, hatemongering assholes do they? Then why do they act like that to straight people?

"Treat others as you want to be treated!" after all, not "They started it!!!"


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> I could never wrap my head around the anti-straight people. I mean... they don't want people to be anti-gay, hatemongering assholes do they? Then why do they act like that to straight people?
> 
> "Treat others as you want to be treated!" after all, not "They started it!!!"



yeah, thats a problem that i see, too... but what do you expect from a bunch of filthy furfags? :V
"treat others the way you want to be treated yourself" is a pretty big moral dilemma by the way^^ what if you WANT to be hurt? is it ok to hurt others or to watch others get hurt then, too?


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

if you treat other people the way you want to be treated, you have to then assume others are doing the same, and treat them the way they treat other people...


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## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> if you treat other people the way you want to be treated, you have to then assume others are doing the same, and treat them the way they treat other people...



and now we have a circular argument^^
what if they want to treat others badly, too?


----------



## BRN (Jan 25, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> and now we have a circular argument^^
> what if they want to treat others badly, too?



Eh, you're looking at it too simply. If you want to be hurt, and hurt others, the punishment is social ostracision. And that cuts off the circle.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

SIX said:


> Eh, you're looking at it too simply. If you want to be hurt, and hurt others, the punishment is social ostracision. And that cuts off the circle.



but my argument still stands: "treat others the way you want to be treated yourself" has to be applied very carefully since there ARE people who want to hurt you and others. doesnt matter whether they are ostracised or not, they are there and they still are a part of society.


----------



## BRN (Jan 25, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> but my argument still stands: "treat others the way you want to be treated yourself" has to be applied very carefully since there ARE people who want to hurt you and others. doesnt matter whether they are ostracised or not, they are there and they still are a part of society.



I'd object by saying that people don't generally have one track minds. Their desire to cause hurt is normally marred by their desire to stay socially mobile, and the two typically balance out. If they don't, they get caught by modern forensic science, or just social penalties. Or they become Dexter. :v


----------



## Recel (Jan 25, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> and now we have a circular argument^^
> what if they want to treat others badly, too?



No. We have a derailment. All aboard! Next stop, the filling near the tracks! :V

While I do have a question to ask on-topic, my English fails me and I just can't word it in any way...

Edit: Lets try this. When you realised you were gay/bi/pencilwhatever, did the world "change" suddenly? And I don't mean the obvious "Well, yeah, I gues I like guys!" way. But like, did "red suddenly became blue"?

Probably I'm not making much sense, I know, but it was worth a try.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

How about this then, anthro art. I like looking at men in the real world and I like looking at animals on here, but I very much prefer the male to the female characters. Not just their... bits down there, or even their bodies, but sometimes their faces too, they're animal faces on human bodies, but yet I still prefer the male animals to the female, how does that even work? (and before anyone asks, no I don't like normal animals in the same way.)


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## CaptainCool (Jan 25, 2012)

SIX said:


> I'd object by saying that people don't generally have one track minds. Their desire to cause hurt is normally marred by their desire to stay socially mobile, and the two typically balance out. If they don't, they get caught by modern forensic science, or just social penalties. Or they become Dexter. :v



i think i can agree with that.



Recel said:


> No. We have a derailment. All aboard! Next stop, the filling near the tracks! :V
> 
> While I do have a question to ask on-topic, my English fails me and I just can't word it in any way...



we do and we dont. this thread is essentially about sexual orientation, gender identity, religion and morals.
and i got onto the religious and moral aspects of this^^ people do harrass gays and transgendered people because of their nonsensical religion and we did talk about the moral implications behind that.
but i do admit that i we got just a tiny bit off the original subject with it^^

as to your question: we have many people from different countries here, im german myself! just ask a way, im sure we will be able to understand it!


----------



## Spatel (Jan 25, 2012)

I cannot answer the trans thing completely, as a closeted/non-pursuing MtF. I might be able to shed some light on it though.

It feels like your dick is an alien appendage that you woke up with  randomly, and that the nerves just don't line up right... like it's  miles away from your brain. Feels like there should be something closer.  Whenever I looked at a hot woman I felt a sexual attraction, but even  moreso I felt envy. Uncontrollably strong envy. I envied the shape the  female body, the smoothness of the skin, the strength of the hips. I  also envied the way girls were allowed to express themselves   emotionally, and I felt the range of clothing options was also much more   comprehensive for them to express themselves without inciting   derogatory remarks. All my sexual fantasies involved me being female  until my 20s. I thought  this was normal until I heard from my other guy  friends that they  pictured themselves as men in their fantasies  (usually).

Despite all of this...

I was skeptical that I was trans, because I enjoyed being male until my  teens. It wasn't until the age of 12 that this developed, and I had  heard transpeople generally had problems early in childhood. I liked  being a boy, growing up. I played sports, I played with legos, I hated  barbies, hated the color pink, had mostly male friends, etc. I wasn't a  macho kid or anything, I was still a pasty nerd.

The other thing was that my reasons for considering transitioning were  mostly sexual, and I had heard that was likely to get me rejected in the  early stages of psychological evaluation. (This doctrine has changed,  but pre-Blanchard psychology surrounding transsexuals was of that  opinion).

The other other thing is that in my 20s, I started having sexual  fantasies where I *was* male. I have proper male/male fantasies where  I'm actually the top now, and even male/female ones where I'm the male  too. I'd say still the majority of my sexual fantasies are  autogynephilic in nature... maybe 70% of them. It seems like there's  enough for me to work with though.

As for sexual preference, I'm completely bisexual. As 50-50 as it gets.  Seems like *all the guys I meet who identify as bi and say they're around  50-50 and actually follow  through with it without turning gay or taking it back and saying they were just straight with authority issues...* they mostly ended up saying they've had periods of gender identity issues  similar to mine, though not all of them. For now I'm content to stay  male. I'm disillusioned with the options available for trans people and I  think the quality of my life will be slightly better staying the course  than it would be if I tried to transition. I am... very attractive  currently and I'd rather not destroy that just to become a cheap  facsimile of something I'll never be.



Lunar said:


> I wonder how many people here have any experience whatsoever as far as sex goes?  These are furries we're talking about, after all.



I've dated men, had sex with a couple, dated women, had sex with *a woman* and she happens to be my current girlfriend. I've done everything that two humans can do and I liked all of it.


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

Anti-straight people just piss me the fuck off.  It makes me want to say fuck driving lessons and a car, I'll buy a very-clearly female fursuit and go to cons, just to spite them.


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## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

Recel said:


> No. We have a derailment. All aboard! Next stop, the filling near the tracks! :V
> 
> While I do have a question to ask on-topic, my English fails me and I just can't word it in any way...
> 
> ...



I think I understand, your english is awesome. 
Nothing really changed for me. I stayed in the closet for a while and life just went on. I suppose you could say that it changed my political views slightly, but I think they would have changed as I matured regardless.

Edit: Sheesh I butchered that. That's what I get for rushing to post while studying.


----------



## Aetius (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> Anti-straight people just piss me the fuck off.  It makes me want to say fuck driving lessons and a car, I'll buy a very-clearly female fursuit and go to cons, just to spite them.



Anti-Straight people must always be avoided, I cannot stand being near such hate.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Recel said:


> Edit: Lets try this. When you realised you were gay/bi/pencilwhatever, did the world "change" suddenly? And I don't mean the obvious "Well, yeah, I gues I like guys!" way. But like, did "red suddenly became blue"?
> 
> Probably I'm not making much sense, I know, but it was worth a try.



Yes, very much so, or at least I changed, the world stayed the same around me, so far as I can tell. though it was a slow transition over the course of a few weeks, as was my realisation. I found myself becoming with each passing day more attracted to men and more open to... certain activities with them, and at the same time my whole idea of myself was changing, I was acting different, I started buying myself new things, I started caring that I had never been in a relationship with anyone, where I had been happy before. But at the same time, and starting a little before, actually, other things changed too, I gained a whole new set of interests, started finding old hobbies and favourite books boring, I took a sudden new interest in my appearance, started working out, that sort of thing. Throw in the sudden mood swings and such like, and it's almost as though I became a teenager again, slightly odd, but it would be nice if I had, I am naturally immature for my age, and even though I seemed to suddenly mature about thre of four years over those few weeks, just from the way I stood and walked and acted and the new confidence I found, I still look young for my age, or so I have been told.
But yes, in as much as I can tell when so much else was changing around me, things did feel different, and better, afterwards.

In fact this has happened to me three times since September, the first when I found an online community of people that... liked some of the same things as me, and the last when I joined this site. I am not the person I was in August, I don't even know him, can't understand how he thought, can hardly even imagine being him, but I am happier for that, he was a very boring person.


----------



## Recel (Jan 25, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> as to your question: we have many people from different countries here, im german myself! just ask a way, im sure we will be able to understand it!



The problem is, no language has a single word to describe what I mean. Well, as far as I am aware of it. So I'll try to describe it.

Often you hear how a big event changed how someone "viewed" the world. Not necessary only by there mindset. A sudden change, when you look at something and you have totally different thoughts about it, maybe even physically view it differently, and you don't really know why.


----------



## ryanleblanc (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> See I always wondered this. What kind of traits do you look for?



Well, much like with straight people, the traits gay people look for vary from person to person as people have different tastes. Everyone straight, gay, whatever, has different tastes. 

I myself am bi. In women I look for a healthy body, non-irritating voice, a sense of humour, a well balanced personality, and some shared hobbies/interests. While as far as sexual features and just plain good looks go, with women I look for medium sized boobs, skinny but not overly skinny, a cute face, a cute little butt, and roughly 5'0'' to 5'6'', of course all of these parameters are flexible dependant on how much I like her personality. Anyway, I could go into a lot more detail, but I'm getting off topic. 

As I was saying, tastes vary from person to person. One of my friends, Ronny, is what people call "an ass man". Sexually speaking, he loves a nice ass on a girl, boobs come second to ass for him. But yeah it varies from person to person. One thing Ronny said, that I think was the most genius thing any guy has ever said, was that "The vagina is not sexy, it's just a hole, it feels good, but it is not amazing to look at. Boobs and ass are there to be the hot factor." I completely agree with that statement, but I'm sure many would disagree, it's just all about varying tastes.

So now that we've taken a look at straight attraction, lets move onto the part that you wanted answers about, gay attraction.

This is basically the same in a sense that it's all about different tastes, and one great way to demonstrate this is by taking a look at different traits straight people find attractive and compare them with the gay equivalent.

1. Teen[18+] (straight), twink (gay)
2. Big boobs (straight), big dick (gay)
3. Cougar/mature (straight), mature (gay)
4. Big ass (straight), big ass (gay)

Anyway that's just a couple of examples. As you can see some of the things straight people find attractive have gay equivalents and some things are just the exact same. Of course these are very "prominent" traits, so let's talk a little bit more about the less prominent ones, preferences that gays have when looking for a boyfriend. 

As I said before, I am bi so let's take a look at the gayer side of things. In a guy I like someone between 5'5" and 6'2", with that skinny but muscular look, or if they have the skater style look then skinny is just fine too. Much like with women, brown hair is always a positive, the same goes for blue or green eyes. Just like with women, hairiness is not attractive to me anyway, with men it's fine "down there" but women are hotter shaved to me. Once again, just like with women, I look for a cute face, cute butt, well rounded personality, and again, all these preferences are flexible based on how much I like a guy's personality. 

So really it's not that different. But of course there are people who have totally different preferences as opposed to mine, so really there is no unanimous "every gay guy likes ________________."  But hopefully that will give you some idea as to various things that gays find attractive.

OH ALMOST FORGOT: Flamers, *shudders* now that is a turn off, for me anyway. It's just like, "Must you shove your sexuality in everyone's faces? Seriously nobody gives a damn."


----------



## veeno (Jan 25, 2012)

Well i was just born with it really.

Messed up hormones and all that shit


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

veeno said:


> Well i was just born with it really.
> 
> Messed up hormones and all that shit



Would you rather you weren't then? Rather be normal and boring and just like everyone else?


----------



## veeno (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Would you rather you weren't then?


No.

I really dont mind.

I was made how i was made and thats that.


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

Getting back to the OP, I don't think I have any "preferences", really.  If I see a hot girl, yeah, I'll rate her or something, but that's probably all I'd consciously think to do.  I was floored by my girlfriend's unearthly beauty, wasn't really aware of any preferences, so nothing really turned me off or on the moment I first saw her.  I guess the best way to describe it is looking at and appreciating art.  Unless it's something like porn, it doesn't really sexually stimulate someone, but they can still admire it.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Would you rather you weren't then? Rather be normal and boring and just like everyone else?



For some people, I'd imagine being normal would be a blessing.

For others, it would be a curse.


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> Getting back to the OP, I don't think I have any "preferences", really.  If I see a hot girl, yeah, I'll rate her or something, but that's probably all I'd consciously think to do.  I was floored by my girlfriend's unearthly beauty, wasn't really aware of any preferences, so nothing really turned me off or on the moment I first saw her.  I guess the best way to describe it is looking at and appreciating art.  Unless it's something like porn, it doesn't really sexually stimulate someone, but they can still admire it.



I pretty much feel the same way. I mean, there are guidelines, but most the time it either is there or isn't. It's difficult to break down.

Edit: ARJKLJFLK Doublepost, accident sorry.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> For some people, I'd imagine being normal would be a blessing.
> 
> For others, it would be a curse.



I'm happy being me now, but yet, I was quite content before, maybe I was boring, maybe I didn't have any sort of relationship, but that was what I wanted, now it isn't, and though I like the idea of being gay, I don't like the not having anyone to do it with part, and chances are, that isn't going to change much any time soon. Throw in a handful or two of regrets from that earlier 'contentment' that now is a string of missed experiences, and I'm in a rather complex position where it was all so simple before. :/


----------



## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I wonder how many people here have any experience whatsoever as far as sex goes?  These are furries we're talking about, after all.



lawl

I have had no sexual experience whatsoever.

On that note, I still _know_ I'm gay. Two reasons. One, I have no sexual attraction to women and only for men. Two, it's in my genes. My uncle and another member of my family are gay.


----------



## Waffles (Jan 25, 2012)

My own thoughts:
I don't know why, but girls don't bring about that sexual rise in me. I just don't feel interested, at all. Whereas with men, yes, I feel like it's perfect. And I don't care about gender as long as it's love, because hell, everyone should be damn well happy and comfortable with themselves to pick what they want. 
Being gay isn't anything special. It just means you can't have babies, and you do things differently. Nothing wrong, nothing sinful or anything of the likes. I'm happy with myself, and I'm happy with my boyfriend. :>


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

Waffles said:


> My own thoughts:
> I don't know why, but girls don't bring about that sexual rise in me. I just don't feel interested, at all. Whereas with men, yes, I feel like it's perfect. And I don't care about gender as long as it's love, because hell, everyone should be damn well happy and comfortable with themselves to pick what they want.
> Being gay isn't anything special. It just means you can't have babies, *and you do things differently*. Nothing wrong, nothing sinful or anything of the likes. I'm happy with myself, and I'm happy with my boyfriend. :>




Can you elaborate? What do you do differently and if so why.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Can you elaborate? What do you do differently and if so why.



From what I've seen at parades, moar leather.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Never got the attraction of leather myself. Now bare skin, that looks nice. Feels nice too.


----------



## The_Mask (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Yes, very much so, or at least I changed, the worl.........ery boring person.


Shit dude. Are you my clone or something? o.0

Well I'm essentially repeating what many others have said here: It's not a repulsion from the other gender, or a trait of personality, it just means I'm attracted to males and not females. I'm into auto-repair, I've built robots, and I love rock music and sci-fi shows. For some people though it also seems to be a desire to be a bit more feminine. I don't identify with that though. Only problem I have is that the only people who I can easily identify as gay are flamers, and I cannot stand them. Huge turnoff.


----------



## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> From what I've seen at parades, moar leather.


Only... not in the butt area. :3


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

I've never felt compelled to act a certain way, I didn't before, and don't now. I don't think of myself as feminine, but yet, I like pretty flowers, cute animals, pink things (amongst many other things, of course), and don't much care for sports, cars, anything rough or mechanical or whatever men are supposed to like. But that's just me, it's how I've always been, the only thing that's changed there is that I'm now more willing to buy myself the things I like, but don't really need, and that could be completely unrelated.


----------



## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

Zenia said:


> Only... not in the butt area. :3


Assless chaps...

I don't care if you're a hermaphrodite, you've got my attention


----------



## Waffles (Jan 25, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Can you elaborate? What do you do differently and if so why.



Do SEX differently.  Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Waffles said:


> Do SEX differently.  Sorry for the confusion.



Elaborate MOAR, dammit.
Everyone wants to know the durty details :v


----------



## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

Waffles said:


> Do SEX differently.  Sorry for the confusion.


Straight people can have buttsex.

Though, I personally don't like it.


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

I feel like this conversation went down in maturity but whatever.

Most heterosexual sex I've seen has more than one gender participating.

Plus, I think gay sex is generally...kinkier.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> I feel like this conversation went down in maturity but whatever.
> 
> Most heterosexual sex I've seen has more than one gender participating.
> 
> Plus, I think gay sex is generally...kinkier.



We've used up all the mature, there's nothing left to say there.


----------



## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

Being gay really isn't any different than being straight, other than loving the same sex. Anything different in behavior or otherwise is more of a gay culture thing, in my experiences. It changes with time and place.

Maybe we can get the mature back on track  Needs some disagreement up in here.


----------



## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

Carnie said:


> Maybe we can get the mature back on track  Needs some disagreement up in here.



Pansexuals don't exist.

Discuss.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> Pansexuals don't exist.
> 
> Discuss.



Everyone likes what they like, and why shouldn't they. I personally have never found females attractive or appealing, but other people do, some of them may or may not find males attractive. Meanwhile, of course people don't find every member of whichever gender appealing. So yes, if two people like each other and want to be 'intimate' together, then why not. That's about all there is to it.
However, I now quite like the idea of people labelling themselves, of feeling like we belong to something, are a part of something.


----------



## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> Plus, I think gay sex is generally...kinkier.



I second that.  Lots of hetero couples just like to do it and get it done.  NOT SO OVER HERE.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

There is this rumour going around that gay relationships lack substance, that they are just short term things for a bit of fun and nothing romantic or whatever, maybe some are, I'm sure many aren't, too. However, what about heterosexual relationships, particularly marriage, I mean, my parents are a typical example there, two people that just sort of exist near each other, sometimes they are in the same room, sometimes they talk, and that is it. I have some idea what they do in private, and that is mostly not much. I know what I would prefer. 
I think partly it comes down to their being so different, theydon't have much in common, where two men, or I suppose two women, would likely have more shared interests and opinions. Though, I should say, this is mostly a guess made up from the little I have seen recently.


----------



## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> There is this rumour going around that gay relationships lack substance, that they are just short term things for a bit of fun and nothing romantic or whatever, maybe some are, I'm sure many aren't, too. However, what about heterosexual relationships, particularly marriage, I mean, my parents are a typical example there, two people that just sort of exist near each other, sometimes they are in the same room, sometimes they talk, and that is it. I have some idea what they do in private, and that is mostly not much. I know what I would prefer.
> I think partly it comes down to their being so different, theydon't have much in common, where two men, or I suppose two women, would likely have more shared interests and opinions. Though, I should say, this is mostly a guess made up from the little I have seen recently.


Where did you hear that?


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> There is this rumour going around that gay relationships lack substance



I've heard that as well.

Honestly, I suppose that's very much so often the case. But I suspect its the exact same (or very close) percentage for hetero couples. Honestly, I think its the pot calling the kettle black type of thing.

 Nowadays there is hardly any serious relationships. Most of the "serious" ones turn out to be built upon lies or otherwise end up down the toilet because people aren't meant to be and/or the quality of society's morals seems to be declining.


----------



## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

I can't think of any same-sex married couples that I've heard getting a divorce.

Then again, I can't think of a lot of same-sex married couples to begin with.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

I haven't actually heard the rumour, merely heard that it exists, someone on another site mentioned it.



Yago said:


> I've heard that as well.
> 
> Honestly, I suppose that's very much so often the case. But I suspect its the exact same (or very close) percentage for hetero couples. Honestly, I think its the pot calling the kettle black type of thing.
> 
> Nowadays there is hardly any serious relationships. Most of the "serious" ones turn out to be built upon lies or otherwise end up down the toilet because people aren't meant to be and/or the quality of society's morals seems to be declining.



I guess people can't be bothered to go out of their way to find someone just right for them, settle too easily, or maybe they just want to have some fun, nothing wrong with that, surely?


----------



## Zydala (Jan 25, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread so I dunno how many other people are like me in this

But I guess I'm a lesbian, yet I don't feel like one? I guess if a guy came around and I liked 'em enough I'd be cool with it, sexuality is a lot more fluid than people think it is...

But I was only ever (sort of) physically attracted to people I was _romantically_ attracted to first... if that makes sense. Like, I'm actually almost convinced I'm asexual in a way because I wouldn't care if I didn't ever have sex again (or if I never did). But I love my girlfriend so much and we've been together 8 and a half years now and it doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon... I just don't know what 'physically' sets off fireworks really for me. I just really really need to have someone with me who's kind of my second half and the rest be damned.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> I haven't actually heard the rumour, merely heard that it exists, someone on another site mentioned it.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess people can't be bothered to go out of their way to find someone just right for them, settle too easily, or maybe they just want to have some fun, nothing wrong with that, surely?



Not in itself, no. However, you end up with circumstances such as children being thrown into a terrible household, crazy people doing things like burning your house down or something... Etc. people also start their own drama and it causes more issues. Having hook ups or just loosely formed relationships is fine... Just make sure that it doesn't end up causing something bad.


----------



## Antonin Scalia (Jan 25, 2012)

I just wanna touch dudes damn


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## Ad Hoc (Jan 25, 2012)

Being gay is gay. 

:V


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## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> I've heard that as well.
> 
> Honestly, I suppose that's very much so often the case. But I suspect its the exact same (or very close) percentage for hetero couples. Honestly, I think its the pot calling the kettle black type of thing.
> 
> Nowadays there is hardly any serious relationships. Most of the "serious" ones turn out to be built upon lies or otherwise end up down the toilet because people aren't meant to be and/or the quality of society's morals seems to be declining.



Seems about right from my own experiences honestly. It isn't always true of course, but yeah, it does seem to be a trend. 
Little depressing to think about. I'm sure it depends on area a bit too though. Gays down here that I know are all kind of part of a very large social group, and they tend to be similar.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

It is very depressing to think about :\.


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## veeno (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> It is very depressing to think about :\.


Not to me.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

veeno said:


> Not to me.



Why not?


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## veeno (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> Why not?


Because things like this does not depress me.


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## Spatel (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> Nowadays there is hardly any serious relationships. Most of the "serious" ones turn out to be built upon lies or otherwise end up down the toilet because people aren't meant to be and/or the quality of society's morals seems to be declining.



What morals are declining? Also how old are you?


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

veeno said:


> Because things like this does not depress me.



We mean most relationships ending up being failures that ruin peoples' lives.


----------



## veeno (Jan 25, 2012)

Still does not depress me.

I am not trying to be rude.

But i just dont get sad about such things.


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Spatel said:


> What morals are declining? Also how old are you?



Just in general the mass population seems more shallow and petty. 

 And seventeen.



veeno said:


> Still does not depress me.
> 
> I am not trying to be rude.
> 
> But i just don't get sad about such things.





You are not being rude. I did not know if you read all of it, it sounded a bit like you were referring to something else.

Either way, I mostly find it depressing because it decreases the already low probability of me finding a mate.


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## Seian Verian (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm... Not sure if I entirely have a place in this discussion, myself. I don't think I'm entirely gay, since I have had some fantasies about females... But I find vaginas visually unappealing and don't like breasts at all. And I very very definitely like males. ...At the least, fictional ones. I actually don't think I've ever been attracted to anyone at all I've met in real life, really. 

I dunno, I don't have much to add here, on the original topic or the current conversation, really.


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## Zenia (Jan 25, 2012)

Seian Verian said:


> I find vaginas visually unappealing...


As do I... but I probably wouldn't stare into one. I know my way around very well by touch. >) Disagree on breasts though. They are so squishy and nice.


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## Spatel (Jan 25, 2012)

How do you define a relationship failing? It seems pretty stupid to say the only successful relationships are the ones that last the rest of your life... if people get into them and enjoy them while they last, I'd say they're good relationships.


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Spatel said:


> How do you define a relationship failing? It seems pretty stupid to say the only successful relationships are the ones that last the rest of your life... if people get into them and enjoy them while they last, I'd say they're good relationships.



I'm referring to the ones that result in fire and brimstone afterwards. Regardless of duration. Typically ruining your life over a relationship is bad.

I'm specifically referring to the ones that have large, negative, and long lasting side effects.


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> I've heard that as well.
> 
> Honestly, I suppose that's very much so often the case. But I suspect its the exact same (or very close) percentage for hetero couples. Honestly, I think its the pot calling the kettle black type of thing.
> 
> Nowadays there is hardly any serious relationships. Most of the "serious" ones turn out to be built upon lies or otherwise end up down the toilet because people aren't meant to be and/or the quality of society's morals seems to be declining.



Fucking shit.
That's fucking bullshit.

Just because a majority of gay people don't take relationships seriously doesn't mean all of us will. I, for one, will take that shit very seriously.

And you know how many straight people do the same? You know how many 3 week relationships go by in my school? _A lot_.


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## Antonin Scalia (Jan 25, 2012)

lemme back up this talking point with my anecdotal evidence


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

shteev said:


> Fucking shit.
> That's fucking bullshit.
> 
> Just because a majority of gay people don't take relationships seriously doesn't mean all of us will. I, for one, will take that shit very seriously.
> ...



I don't think you read that out so well...

I specifically noted that it is most likely the same for hetero couples.

 I'm saying, in general, that people do not take relationships seriously. Not that it is some undeniable law that all people do not. I myself take relationships very seriously, which is likely the reason I have nearly no experience in that particular area. 

I too have an endless stream of three week relationships at my high school.


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## shteev (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> I don't think you read that out so well...
> 
> I specifically noted that it is most likely the same for hetero couples.
> 
> ...



*Rereads previous post.*

...Shit

Misread that entirely. My apologies.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

shteev said:


> *Rereads le previous post.*
> 
> ...Shit
> 
> Misread that entirely. My apologies.



It's fine. It was amusing.

I'm an incredibly difficult person to offend. Though my brutal honesty and foot-in-mouth disease insures I offend others easily. Though I doubt I will, apologies if I offend anyone here.


----------



## Carnie (Jan 25, 2012)

Antonin Scalia said:


> lemme back up this talking point with my anecdotal evidence



I will not lie, I've only ever vaguely understood the context of your posts.
But I love them.

More on topic though, I have absolutely no idea when it comes to the topic of transgender. I've never understood it completely myself, and I'd like to hear a bit more on it.

Edit: 502 postget mmm check out that title.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jan 25, 2012)

Zina can i touch your boobies? ;~;


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Indeed, people go through a lot of short term relationships whilst they're young, then often settle down for something longer and more serious later in life. That's what I hope to do too, I like the idea of someone that I can enjoy spending a long time with, somewhere out there is just the right person for me (who just happens to be a man, nothing wrong with that) and I just have to find him. I am keen on the whole relationship thing, spending time with someone, enjoying doing a lot of other things together. Nice to know I'm not unusual there.
In conclusion then, whatever peoples' sexual orientation, they are still people, pretty much the same sets of different ways of looking at the world, the same range of ideas and opinions and everything, other than the one obvious difference, and that's all there is to it, really, deep down we're all the same, and all different.

Also, woo, 100th post.  Sorry.
(slightly worrying that a fifth of those were here this evening, but this is something I actually know a little about)


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Indeed, people go through a lot of short term relationships whilst they're young, then often settle down for something longer and more serious later in life. That's what I hope to do too, I like the idea of someone that I can enjoy spending a long time with, somewhere out there is just the right person for me (who just happens to be a man, nothing wrong with that) and I just have to find him. I am keen on the whole relationship thing, spending time with someone, enjoying doing a lot of other things together. Nice to know I'm not unusual there.
> In conclusion then, whatever peoples' sexual orientation, they are still people, pretty much the same sets of different ways of looking at the world, the same range of ideas and opinions and everything, other than the one obvious difference, and that's all there is to it, really, deep down we're all the same, and all different.
> 
> Also, woo, 100th post.  Sorry.
> (slightly worrying that a fifth of those were here this evening, but this is something I actually know a little about)



It's fine. I know, I myself am bisexual and as of right now I hope to settle down with someone of the same gender. I emotionally connect more with females, however I am often more physically attracted to males. I have no experience dating my own gender and I'd certainly like to try, that said, I don't know any gay/bisexual guys that are worth even attempting to date.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

The nice ones are the harder ones to find, the ones that go unnoticed whilst those that make themselves too obvious aren't worth the bother. Or something


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> The nice ones are the harder ones to find, the ones that go unnoticed whilst those that make themselves too obvious aren't worth the bother. Or something



I think so. Of course, I'd probably have more luck if I wasn't closeted. Boy. That is a stupid and annoying term.

Anyways, no one but my friends know. It's not exactly some kind of secret, but I don't bring it up.

 I'm already harassed enough, I don't need locker rape. Not that I would mind too much. ;P


----------



## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> I think so. Of course, I'd probably have more luck if I wasn't closeted. Boy. That is a stupid and annoying term.
> 
> Anyways, no one but my friends know. It's not exactly some kind of secret, but I don't bring it up.
> 
> I'm already harassed enough, I don't need locker rape. Not that I would mind too much. ;P



You'd better hope they at least spit in their hand first.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> You'd better hope they at least spit in their hand first.



I was joking, of course, though everyone knew that. (I hope)

I really don't have a response. That's extremely rare.


----------



## Cain (Jan 25, 2012)

What about us bisexuals?
:c


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

You and I both know we're completely gay :v


----------



## The_Mask (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> The nice ones are the harder ones to find, the ones that go unnoticed whilst those that make themselves too obvious aren't worth the bother. Or something


Problemo numero uno right there. That bloody "gaydar" thing that some people claim they have doesn't exist. Not unless somebody's waving it in your face with rainbow flags and women's jeans, and in that case I'm not interested.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

The_Mask said:


> Problemo numero uno right there. That bloody "gaydar" thing that some people claim they have doesn't exist. Not unless somebody's waving it in your face with rainbow flags and women's jeans, and in that case I'm not interested.



There's a couple of people I've got pegged as not straight. That said, you cannot confront them about it. So anyways, there's a limited market.


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## Cain (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> You and I both know we're completely gay :v


NEVAAAAAAARRRRR!!


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## Evan of Phrygia (Jan 25, 2012)

so, uh, what was your boyfriends name again? mine's aidan, howboutchu :3


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## The_Mask (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> There's a couple of people I've got pegged as not straight. That said, you cannot confront them about it. So anyways, there's a limited market.


And how exactly did you peg them? It's not just a limited market, it's a fucking little country store that's only open from noon-3PM M-Th.


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## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

The_Mask said:


> And how exactly did you peg them? It's not just a limited market, it's a fucking little country store that's only open from noon-3PM M-Th.



The guy's feminine (not feminine enough to be offputting) and he's also extremely squeamish. I can't quite explain it, but he's definitely not completely straight. I think he's one of those people that would never act on it type of thing.


----------



## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

Yago said:


> I was joking, of course, though everyone knew that. (I hope)
> 
> I really don't have a response. That's extremely rare.


Shoot, I forgot the :V


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Not a problem.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

I have my suspicions about a couple of people too, I can't exactly ask them, but I would love to know if I'm right, especially since both are amongst the best looking guys I've seen anywhere around, and one is in my class, so it should be easy for me to get to know him a bit better.


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## Lunar (Jan 25, 2012)

I feel like most of this thread is about gay, not transgenderism.  I'm also very confused about it; I've never really understood the point.  I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just don't get it.


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## Spatel (Jan 25, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> You and I both know we're completely gay :v



i'm completely gay for women, but when a hot surfer shows up, i have to make an exception and go gay for him too


----------



## Inciatus (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I feel like most of this thread is about gay, not transgenderism.  I'm also very confused about it; I've never really understood the point.  I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just don't get it.



Probably because there are far more gays than transgenders.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I feel like most of this thread is about gay, not transgenderism.  I'm also very confused about it; I've never really understood the point.  I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just don't get it.


Unfortunately, FAF has a bad history with discussions of trans* issues. It seems to have gotten better lately, but there's still a bit of gunshyness about it, with a few exceptions. You could likely get a good idea about body dysphoria from Spatel's posts a few pages back, but Spatel's approach to transitioning isn't really reflective of the transgender community's as a whole. (Although perfectly valid. If and how a person transitions is very individual.) I believe there was a genderqueer post a few pages back but I was skimming. 

Really you're probably going to have to do some independent research or talk to some folks privately about it (if they're okay with that) to really get a good idea of it, if you're genuinely curious. It seems to take a while to sink in no matter what, though, if you're not experiencing it personally. Just a matter of time and exposure, I think.


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> I have my suspicions about a couple of people too, I can't exactly ask them, but I would love to know if I'm right, especially since both are amongst the best looking guys I've seen anywhere around, and one is in my class, so it should be easy for me to get to know him a bit better.



I know. I had class with the guy last year (though not this year). I passed biology for him and another guy. (Though the other guy's just about as straight as possible). 

Actually, the guy I believe is gay is part of the reason I realized I'm bisexual.


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## Kitutal (Jan 25, 2012)

Lunar said:


> I feel like most of this thread is about gay, not transgenderism. I'm also very confused about it; I've never really understood the point. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just don't get it.



There's a whole section on the xtube forums if you feel like paying it a visit... Could ask a few questions there.




Yago said:


> I know. I had class with the guy last year (though not this year). I passed biology for him and another guy. (Though the other guy's just about as straight as possible).
> 
> Actually, the guy I believe is gay is part of the reason I realized I'm bisexual.



Been there too, back when I wasn't sure, seeing him every couple of days, that was what confirmed it. I could imagine us being together, and it just seemed right to me, the whole thing. I just need to gather th courage to talk to him one day...


----------



## Yago (Jan 25, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Been there too, back when I wasn't sure, seeing him every couple of days, that was what confirmed it. I could imagine us being together, and it just seemed right to me, the whole thing. I just need to gather th courage to talk to him one day...



Yeah. I noticed more so with another guy in my class, but it was a combination of things. I never realized it, but I'd been checking out my own gender for as long as I could remember. I suppose, that because it felt natural I never noticed too much or thought of it.


----------



## Spatel (Jan 25, 2012)

Ad Hoc said:


> Unfortunately, FAF has a bad history with discussions of trans* issues. It seems to have gotten better lately, but there's still a bit of gunshyness about it, with a few exceptions. You could likely get a good idea about body dysphoria from Spatel's posts a few pages back, but Spatel's approach to transitioning isn't really reflective of the transgender community's as a whole. (Although perfectly valid. If and how a person transitions is very individual.) I believe there was a genderqueer post a few pages back but I was skimming.
> 
> Really you're probably going to have to do some independent research or talk to some folks privately about it (if they're okay with that) to really get a good idea of it, if you're genuinely curious. It seems to take a while to sink in no matter what, though, if you're not experiencing it personally. Just a matter of time and exposure, I think.



Maybe what I can help convey is that it's not a cut-and-dried thing. Queerness is complicated, for most people, and it can happen many different ways. The general public have this idea that you just wake up one day and BAM! You're gay. And that's it. No going back. Even for gays it isn't that simple. For some maybe it is, but for others... they could spend years thinking about this shit, going back and forth with it, and many people do.

It's definitely not cut and dried if you're trans. If you think you can be convincing as your desired gender that's great, but getting there is a massive lifestyle adjustment that many transpeople aren't willing to completely make. 



			
				Lunar said:
			
		

> I feel like most of this thread is about gay, not transgenderism.  I'm  also very confused about it; I've never really understood the point.   I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just don't get it.



I have a friend who's trans, out and on hormones, and she blogs about it. Feel free to give it a look. http://translabyrinth.com/

There are tons of youtube videos, and you'll find going through them that many of them are friends with each other. It's a cool, close-knit community. There are also definitely some transfurs on furaffinity that are out and transitioning. Correct me if I'm wrong but Bloodshot Eyes and Cannonfodder are two of them.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

@Spatel

I can't stand how many people believe such things are simply wake up and change scenarios. It never works that way, at least, I've never heard of it.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

I am dating a transgender right now and I am learning a lot of things.

First, it is important to understand what gender actually is. Gender has two aspects that are considered, the social ones and the biological ones. The social aspects of gender include the way you were raised, and it's in your behavior and in your personal identification. The biological aspects are obviously your genitalia, but I have been finding more and more evidence that transgendered people often have different hormones. For instance, my girlfriend tested for much higher levels of estrogen than the average man, and it is very clear that she has the development of more feminine secondary sexual aspects, such as not growing very much facial hair, having larger than usual breasts that appear more feminine in nature, and wider hips. A combination of both these aspects is to be considered when we're talking about gender. 

Some theories say that there are 26 possible combinations of masculine and feminine traits, making for nearly 30 unique genders. However, in daily life we don't think that deeply into it. Gender is a spectrum that can be fluid, much like sexuality is. And much like sexuality, it is a combination of biological factors and social environment in very early life (please note that even with social environment factors influencing sexuality while one develops as a toddler, that does not make sexuality a choice, as sexual attraction cannot be chosen no matter your sexuality. It is entirely subconscious. You cannot really make conscious decision on it, although you can make conscious decision on who you have relations with.) While it is important to consider the changing of hormones and therefore I don't recommend fully transitioning children or adolescents (I do condone giving children and adolescents more freedom to explore gender), it is important to consider that transgender issues will often be there from early childhood. 

Secondly, transgender is a very broad spectrum. You have your transsexuals who want hormone therapy AND bottom surgery. You have transgenders that want hormone therapy and to live as their preferred identity but for many reasons don't want the bottom surgery (this is where my girlfriend falls.) You have your transvestites, who are people who like dressing up as the opposite gender purely as a sexual fetish and/or performance art and not for any inherent desire to be that gender. You have people like me, genderqueer, genderfluid, whatever you want to call it who feel that the simple labeling of "female" or "male" is not adequate because you either feel neither, in between, or different, depending on the days. (To clarify, I identify as genderqueer but I DO NOT MIND use of female pronouns and being called a female, as I do not mind appearing as one. I don't usually make a big deal out of it.)

Essentially though, being transgender often means waking up every morning and feeling as though something is wrong. It means being uncomfortable with the genitalia you were born with, and although the dysphoria varies from person to person, most transgenders will feel at least slightly uncomfortable using their genitalia in sex. It means feeling hurt every time someone refers to you as the wrong pronoun. It means not feeling okay unless you're wearing and doing something that because of society's standards, most people are going to feel uncomfortable with YOU. 

Being genderqueer is a little different, as I personally just identify as "both" in a sense and mostly I act more boyish than most girls I know. For me, it's easy, being in a woman's body where for some reason it's okay with society if I technically dress in drag everyday. I also do not have to feel uncomfortable about pronouns, mostly I feel uncomfortable and harassed by people expecting me to act more feminine (namely my mother.) Because of this, I do not receive the hatred that other trans will receive because my problems are not as obvious.

While the nation slowly starts to realize that homophobia is real and it is wrong, they are now moving into a more intense transphobia and what is quite sad is that many gay people will participate in transphobia as well. To give you an idea, it is often said that 1 in 8 transgender people will be murdered while 1 in 12 prostitutes will be murdered.

This is a legitimate psychological and medical issue and should be addressed and recognized as such. Not just as people who want to wear a dress and have a dick or "dykes" who just want to look more butch. The further we get from these misconceptions the better.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> I am dating a transgender right now and I am learning a lot of things.
> 
> First, it is important to understand what gender actually is. Gender has two aspects that are considered, the social ones and the biological ones. The social aspects of gender include the way you were raised, and it's in your behavior and in your personal identification. The biological aspects are obviously your genitalia, but I have been finding more and more evidence that transgendered people often have different hormones. For instance, my girlfriend tested for much higher levels of estrogen than the average man, and it is very clear that she has the development of more feminine secondary sexual aspects, such as not growing very much facial hair, having larger than usual breasts that appear more feminine in nature, and wider hips. A combination of both these aspects is to be considered when we're talking about gender.
> 
> ...



Very very true. Couldn't have worded it better. (Though I essentially thought all that I could never word it, and I have no experience in that area for I am quite happy with my biological gender and gender identity). Anyways, I think you are wrong on one tiny thing.

Transvestism has nothing to do with sexual feelings, it is simply the act of wearing clothes of another gender. It often is related,  yes, but does not have to be. In addition, they could have the desire to be another gender. Often that is the case. Transvestite has many connotations to it, but the base word still just means cross-dresser.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

Yago said:


> Very very true. Couldn't have worded it better. (Though I essentially thought all that I could never word it, and I have no experience in that area for I am quite happy with my biological gender and gender identity). Anyways, I think you are wrong on one tiny thing.
> 
> Transvestism has nothing to do with sexual feelings, it is simply the act of wearing clothes of another gender. It often is related,  yes, but does not have to be.


While you are correct in that I have seen transvestism done as a legitimate art form namely in the theater and even in the drag community, it usually is fetish related. I have rarely seen instances of people legitimately enjoying the art form and that alone. I enjoy both the art and sexual aspects of cross dressing and drag performance.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> While you are correct in that I have seen transvestism done as a legitimate art form namely in the theater and even in the drag community, it usually is fetish related. I have rarely seen instances of people legitimately enjoying the art form and that alone. I enjoy both the art and sexual aspects of cross dressing and drag performance.



To each his own, of course. To clarify though, you and your girlfriend have reversed biological genders, yes? You're girlfriend being male and you female? (Just want to make sure I understood that). If so, I'd say I find that quite awesome.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

Yago said:


> To each his own, of course. To clarify though, you and your girlfriend have reversed biological genders, yes? You're girlfriend being male and you female? (Just want to make sure I understood that). If so, I'd say I find that quite awesome.


My girlfriend is a Male to Female transgender. I am a genderqueer that as she puts it, "acts more like a boy than any boy I've ever dated" although I am completely comfortable in my female body and in fact I do quite enjoy the advantages of having a masculine personality and a pair of tits for my awful perverted mind to take advantage of.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> My girlfriend is a Male to Female transgender. I am a genderqueer that as she puts it, "acts more like a boy than any boy I've ever dated" although I am completely comfortable in my female body and in fact I do quite enjoy the advantages of having a masculine personality and a pair of tits for my awful perverted mind to take advantage of.



Thanks for clarifying. 

I suppose, if I had a pair of tits I wouldn't leave the house for weeks, though I'm completely happy as is.

I find your relationship very interesting, and I'm quite happy for the two of you.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 26, 2012)

Spatel said:


> It's definitely not cut and dried if you're trans. If you think you can be convincing as your desired gender that's great, but getting there is a massive lifestyle adjustment that many transpeople aren't willing to completely make.


It's not always that, though. Some trans folks pursue transition either way, because the dysphoria is so bad or for whatever other personal reason. There are a few of them at the Madison LGBT outreach group; trans women who came to terms with it too late in life for the hormones to do a whole lot for them. Seems to bring 'em a small comfort anyway. And then you've got the ones that transition and then sort of crossdress? I used to date a trans man who'd get all bound up and guy'd up but never stopped wearing skirts and makeup and stuff. His dysphoria was as real as the day is long, though, he just had an unorthodox idea of what constituted masculinity. Wasn't a dreamer though, never really expected the right pronoun from the general public, but from friends and lovers, yes. (Guess that might not count as "fully transitioned" in the general sense though. Last I knew he was springing for hormones but we cut ties shortly after the break-up.) And then there's the non-binaries, they're all over the place . . . so much to learn. 

I'm guessing you've heard of instances of these yourself, Spatel; I guess I'm saying it for the benefit of other readers.


EDIT: Woooah got a little ninja'd here. Have not read anything past the post I'm quoting.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Honestly, I accept just about everyone. I'm curious of the OP is satisfied now or not.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

Ad Hoc said:


> It's not always that, though. Some trans folks pursue transition either way, because the dysphoria is so bad or for whatever other personal reason. There are a few of them at the Madison LGBT outreach group; trans women who came to terms with it too late in life for the hormones to do a whole lot for them. Seems to bring 'em a small comfort anyway. And then you've got the ones that transition and then sort of crossdress? I used to date a trans man w'd get all bound up and guy'd up but never stopped wearing skirts and makeup and stuff. His dysphoria was as real as the day is long, though, he just had an unorthodox idea of what constituted masculinity. Wasn't a dreamer though, never really expected the right pronoun from the general public, but from friends and lovers, yes. (Guess that might not count as "fully transitioned" in the general sense though. Last I knew he was springing for hormones but we cut ties shortly after the break-up.) And then there's the non-binaries, they're all over the place . . . so much to learn.
> 
> I'm guessing you've heard of instances of these yourself, Spatel; I guess I'm saying it for the benefit of other readers.
> 
> EDIT: Woooah got a little ninja'd here. Have not read anything past the post I'm quoting.


To be fair, it's hard to transition when it can cost you your job, family, friends, and can make you a target for incredibly violent assault and murder.

That should make us ashamed as a society. No really, anyone who wants to spout up some trans hate and say, "Well then don't transition if that's the case!" ask yourself: Should we, as a society, be legitimately concerned about someone's personal medical issue to the degree we'll discriminate and murder them violently? The answer is no. We need not go around refusing people jobs and killing genuinely good people just because someone felt slightly uncomfortable that what appears to be a dude happens to be wearing a dress.


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## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> To be fair, it's hard to transition when it can cost you your job, family, friends, and can make you a target for incredibly violent assault and murder.
> 
> That should make us ashamed as a society. No really, anyone who wants to spout up some trans hate and say, "Well then don't transition if that's the case!" ask yourself: Should we, as a society, be legitimately concerned about someone's personal medical issue to the degree we'll discriminate and murder them violently? The answer is no. We need not go around refusing people jobs and killing genuinely good people just because someone felt slightly uncomfortable that what appears to be a dude happens to be wearing a dress.



It's this way with everything. Society is very unaccepting of just about everything.

Edit: Damnit, fail. Forgot the un in front of accepting. Hope that fixes any potential confusion.


----------



## Inciatus (Jan 26, 2012)

Yago said:


> It's this way with everything. Society is very accepting of just about everything.



Not down here, people find out you are an atheist and it is like you've become Hitler. Probably worse further north in the south.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Inciatus said:


> Not down here, people find out you are an atheist and it is like you've become Hitler. Probably worse further north in the south.



There was supposed to be an un in front of accepting. I'm tired and fucked up the typing. 

Oh, and I know. I'm not even that far south and aethism might as well be nazism. I'm agnostic though.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> To be fair, it's hard to transition when it can cost you your job, family, friends, and can make you a target for incredibly violent assault and murder


Oh, of course. The women I was talking about all came from pretty safe places, though, which I suspect was a part of their decision. (Madison is a cool place yo.) No one should be shamed for not transitioning because they come from a less safe place, or even because it's just not their personal preference to, I wouldna suggest that. Sorry if it came across that way.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh btw, my girlfriend is a furry too and I think she nearly cried with happiness when I randomly got out my sketchbook, started doodling, and I ended up drawing a beautiful anthropomorphic female wolf that I wrote her preferred name next to. I got the biggest hug ever that day.

So while there's quite a lot of hardship in being transgender, there are people who will make you feel wonderful and like you finally belong when they accept you for who you are.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> Oh btw, my girlfriend is a furry too and I think she nearly cried with happiness when I randomly got out my sketchbook, started doodling, and I ended up drawing a beautiful anthropomorphic female wolf that I wrote her preferred name next to. I got the biggest hug ever that day.
> 
> So while there's quite a lot of hardship in being transgender, there are people who will make you feel wonderful and like you finally belong when they accept you for who you are.



Kinda wish I had a the ability to draw, and a furry mate. 

Interesting note, I use the word mate not really referring to the way furries often do. I've always used the term mate for some reason.


----------



## The_Mask (Jan 26, 2012)

Yago said:


> Interesting note, I use the word mate not really referring to the way furries often do. I've always used the term mate for some reason.



Possibly because in a community like this one, labels like boyfriend and girlfriend become somewhat irrelevant?


----------



## Dreaming (Jan 26, 2012)

When you spend 3-4 years in the asexual community, you come across a lot of varied identities and labels that you learn to accept and understand pretty fast.  I dunno how much fact there is behind this, but a vast majority of asexuals do question and subsequently change their gender identity at some point, a lot of them will change to ''nongendered''. 

Gender identities can be a bitch. People often forget that *gender is psychological/social*, and that it's the *sex* *that is biological*. 

This is all purely observational of course. In my honest opinion, when it comes to gender identity, I find it kind of sad that people try and stick within the Male and Female fields. Gender is more varied than that.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 26, 2012)

I've never gotten why there has to be 'male' and 'female' outside of the pure physical differences, aren't people all just themselves, all uniquely slightly different?
You act like yourself, meet someone that likes the way you are, and you're both happy together... what more is there?


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

The_Mask said:


> Possibly because in a community like this one, labels like boyfriend and girlfriend become somewhat irrelevant?



It's actually completely unrelated to furries and or LGBT. I've just always used the word. There are other words not generally used I abuse in my vocabulary as well, but this is one of the more strange examples to the general public. 

Though yes, that is true.


----------



## Cain (Jan 26, 2012)

This is Tides said:


> so, uh, what was your boyfriends name again? mine's aidan, howboutchu :3


Don't have one.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> I've never gotten why there has to be 'male' and 'female' outside of the pure physical differences, aren't people all just themselves, all uniquely slightly different?
> You act like yourself, meet someone that likes the way you are, and you're both happy together... what more is there?


"We are all a little weird and life's a little weird, and when we find someone who's weirdness is compatible with ours, we fall in mutual weirdness and call it love."

That quote always did describe my current unconventional relationship perfectly.


----------



## Takun (Jan 26, 2012)

Personalities are so big.  I just like "guy" personalities.  But that's only part one.  The next part is the sexual attraction and that's the physical part of the relationship.  Add those together and bam fireworks.

Plus you can just chill and play videogames together and then go to In and Out and share burgers and fries.  MANLY.


----------



## Spatel (Jan 26, 2012)

Inciatus said:


> Not down here, people find out you are an atheist and it is like you've become Hitler. Probably worse further north in the south.



My parents know everything about me... everything... and they still don't know I'm an atheist. My mother is the most transphobic human being I know, and I told her everything in that post I made earlier and more. It took 12 years for me to build the courage to tell her, but I did. It was the most painful conversation I ever had, and every conversation we've had that strays toward that topic is like a wirebrush going under the fingernails. 

I could not bring myself to tell her I'm an atheist. She would never tolerate it if I were. 

My sexual orientation is right there on my facebook page for the world to see, but my religious affiliation is not.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 26, 2012)

Spatel said:


> My parents know everything about me... everything... and they still don't know I'm an atheist. My mother is the most transphobic human being I know, and I told her everything in that post I made earlier and more. It took 12 years for me to build the courage to tell her, but I did. It was the most painful conversation I ever had, and every conversation we've had that strays toward that topic is like a wirebrush going under the fingernails.
> 
> I could not bring myself to tell her I'm an atheist. She would never tolerate it if I were.
> 
> My sexual orientation is right there on my facebook page for the world to see, but my religious affiliation is not.


Yeah. My pa's a 50 year old man who won't tell his ma he's an atheist. Since she's not a pushy sort (you know, always pestering him to go to church or whatever), all it would accomplish in his case is getting her worried about his soul or something. Some things just aren't worth the trouble.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Jan 26, 2012)

Yago said:


> Honestly, I accept just about everyone. I'm curious of the OP is satisfied now or not.




I spose I am. I was just wondering if Gays/Trans ever had issues with their feelings and or if they assumed "roles". Like in a straight relationship you have the male and the female i always wondered if one male took the role as the female and vise versa or if there is no role and you just are more or less


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I spose I am. I was just wondering if Gays/Trans ever had issues with their feelings and or if they assumed "roles". Like in a straight relationship you have the male and the female i always wondered if one male took the role as the female and vise versa or if there is no role and you just are more or less



Good to hear. As far as roles go that really is dependent upon the person.


----------



## BRN (Jan 26, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I spose I am. I was just wondering if Gays/Trans ever had issues with their feelings and or if they assumed "roles". Like in a straight relationship you have the male and the female i always wondered if one male took the role as the female and vise versa or if there is no role and you just are more or less


Honestly, it's a matter of preference. I'd be far happier with another guy who just wanted sex and video games all night. We'd probably make concessions about our lifestyles, and may lean towards one doing more cooking or one doing more cleaning, but that's just a neccessary part of maintaining a household rather than a neccessary part of the relationship. If you know what I mean?

Like, hypothetically, if we were staying in a hotel and the cooking/cleaning was done for us, I'd prefer a relationship with someone who was more hedonistic like myself. And yet, that's still just my preference.


----------



## Carnie (Jan 26, 2012)

Inciatus said:


> Not down here, people find out you are an atheist and it is like you've become Hitler. Probably worse further north in the south.



Depends on where you are down here. My dad's side of the family and all of his friends would freak out. My mom's side of the family is alright with it, and no one's thought twice about it at school.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

SIX said:


> Honestly, it's a matter of preference. I'd be far happier with another guy who just wanted sex and video games all night. We'd probably make concessions about our lifestyles, and may lean towards one doing more cooking or one doing more cleaning, but that's just a neccessary part of maintaining a household rather than a neccessary part of the relationship. If you know what I mean?
> 
> Like, hypothetically, if we were staying in a hotel and the cooking/cleaning was done for us, I'd prefer a relationship with someone who was more hedonistic like myself. And yet, that's still just my preference.



That's the way I feel too. I suppose I would like to cuddle, but not in a cutsey way, just more of lying on one another.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

I live in Canada. We're 10x more accepting/tolerant of different types here. Well, except teenage boys, they'll always treat being gay as an insult.
Over here, I don't see homophobia in my day-to-day life. I don't see or hear about people spreading rumors or caring about what someone has between their legs. People are openly gay or trans here because people just don't care. You can walk into a gay club downtown casually, you can go on a date with another guy, it's no big deal.
In fact, I hear more about "how should ___ come out to his parents" from my sister and her friends then I ever do "I'm disowning my son because he's gay!"
so maybe my opinion dont really count either way


----------



## Neuron (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> I live in Canada. We're 10x more accepting/tolerant of different types here. Well, except teenage boys, they'll always treat being gay as an insult.
> Over here, I don't see homophobia in my day-to-day life. I don't see or hear about people spreading rumors or caring about what someone has between their legs. People are openly gay or trans here because people just don't care. You can walk into a gay club downtown casually, you can go on a date with another guy, it's no big deal.
> In fact, I hear more about "how should ___ come out to his parents" from my sister and her friends then I ever do "I'm disowning my son because he's gay!"
> so maybe my opinion dont really count either way


brb moving to canada

But seriously the other day my girlfriend got yelled at by the school authorities because a "male" using the women's restroom is DANGEROUS OMG. Except that if she tried to use the men's restroom while she was wearing anything that identified her as a trans woman using the men's restroom would be incredibly dangerous. 

I personally like that my campus science building has a gender neutral bathroom and I actually use it quite a bit.


----------



## Namba (Jan 26, 2012)

I am very accepting of people. Hating? Fuck that. Ever heard of those "Repent or Burn In Hell Ministries" people? Yeah. I got yelled at by them before. Apparently I'm going to hell for... something.
Jesus loves them too... it's just the rest of us who think they're assholes.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 26, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> Gender identities can be a bitch. People often forget that *gender is psychological/social*, and that it's the *sex* *that is biological*.
> 
> This is all purely observational of course. In my honest opinion, when it comes to gender identity, I find it kind of sad that people try and stick within the Male and Female fields. Gender is more varied than that.



I was thinking on this before and came to the same conclusion. Gender is all just human concepts really.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 26, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I spose I am. I was just wondering if Gays/Trans ever had issues with their feelings and or if they assumed "roles". Like in a straight relationship you have the male and the female i always wondered if one male took the role as the female and vise versa or if there is no role and you just are more or less


That last one, I think. I think it's kind of a false stereotype that gay couples necessarily split into male/female "roles." I'm sure some do, but it seems to be pretty individual. In my relationship with Will, it's pretty 50-50.


----------



## Llamapotamus (Jan 26, 2012)

Lacus said:


> "We are all a little weird and life's a little weird, and when we find someone who's weirdness is compatible with ours, we fall in mutual weirdness and call it love."
> 
> That quote always did describe my current unconventional relationship perfectly.



That's a lovely quote! Where (or who) is it from? Pretty much described me and my ex, too...


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

Something I noticed
Watching a show called Instant-Cash on TV. There are gay couples on here sometimes and there was a couple on tongiht
the couple straight up said "you're gonna take me to Mexico. You didn't take me to Mexico last time!" and nobody says anything
In America, that would warrant a "faggots!" or a "queers!" or the episode wouldn't be aired on tv at all
here? nobody says anything, nobody cares. whether it's a gay couple, a straight couple or a lesbian couple, they're all playing the game for the same reason - to win money. nobody cares what they do in the bedroom.

america could learn a few things from canada.


hell
there is a lesbian couple that lives down the street from me. everybody knows theyre lesbian and guess what
*they have a couple kids*
GASP
nobody says a word!


----------



## Schwimmwagen (Jan 26, 2012)

I wanna live in canaderp for the long haul.

Not til I stop at a few other places first, though.


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## The_Mask (Jan 26, 2012)

Gibby said:


> I wanna live in canaderp for the long haul.
> 
> Not til I stop at a few other places first, though.


Canada sounds good. I know some ex-Canadians. Good people, friendly to everyone they know.


----------



## ryanleblanc (Jan 26, 2012)

Gibby said:


> I wanna live in canaderp for the long haul.
> 
> Not til I stop at a few other places first, though.



COME JOIN US IN CANADERP!

It's very nice and liveable here. 

There are some differences between us and americans though. Like how if someone is an asshole to someone else in the states, they will be an asshole right back, whereas if your an asshole to someone in Canada they will politely apologize as if it is their fault, and then as you are walking away, they'll call you an asshole under their breath.

Ahhh, Canada the land of the illusion of politeness. :V


To be honest though, from what I've seen, Canadians seem to be more detached from each other than Americans. Americans seem much more likely to hold a conversation with a total stranger.

*EDIT: *Oh dear, it seems like we've derailed this thread. 

/thread-derail


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

ryanleblanc said:


> COME JOIN US IN CANADERP!
> 
> It's very nice and liveable here.
> 
> ...



No way, we Canadians love meeting new people. I'm an extremely introverted guy but I will talk friendly with strangers in public. Nobody here picks on one another for what they're wearing or what they look like. 

Canadians like helping strangers out and you aren't afraid to walk down dark alleys here at 3am [hell, that's when I go walking around nearly every night]. It's nothing like the states and I live across the river from Detroit, Michigan. The difference is like night and day.


----------



## Bliss (Jan 26, 2012)

ryanleblanc said:


> There are some differences between us and americans though.





> liveable


I want Canaderp as well!


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

This is why I always laugh whenever Americans rag on Canada. I've always assumed it was jealousy because we're so tolerant and carefree.
Smoke a joint in the states? Get thrown in jail. Get caught with a joint here? No big deal, at least he aint carrying bags of it.
Have a gay friend in the states? You don't talk about it. Have a gay friend in Canada? You talk about em like it's nothing new. I remember as a kid my mom would tell me about her gay friends and it never hit anybody as "OH MY GOD, THAT'S TABOO!" it was just like.. "so he's gay. okay and how does that affect how he works or talks with friends?"

Gay isn't taboo here


----------



## Milo (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Something I noticed
> Watching a show called Instant-Cash on TV. There are gay couples on here sometimes and there was a couple on tongiht
> the couple straight up said "you're gonna take me to Mexico. You didn't take me to Mexico last time!" and nobody says anything
> In America, that would warrant a "faggots!" or a "queers!" or the episode wouldn't be aired on tv at all
> ...



I remember there was a phone commercial that had a gay couple, and the second my parents realized they were a couple, it was like "OH MY GOD HAHAHA THEY'RE GAY. when was this ever acceptable?!"

I was just like wow, you freak out over a 15 second commercial?


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

Milo said:


> I remember there was a phone commercial that had a gay couple, and the second my parents realized they were a couple, it was like "OH MY GOD HAHAHA THEY'RE GAY. when was this ever acceptable?!"
> 
> I was just like wow, you freak out over a 15 second commercial?



there are gay phone sex/dating ads on tv here


----------



## ryanleblanc (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> No way, we Canadians love meeting new people. I'm an extremely introverted guy but I will talk friendly with strangers in public. Nobody here picks on one another for what they're wearing or what they look like.
> 
> Canadians like helping strangers out and you aren't afraid to walk down dark alleys here at 3am [hell, that's when I go walking around nearly every night]. It's nothing like the states and I live across the river from Detroit, Michigan. The difference is like night and day.



Hmm, maybe it was just a coincidence. While I cannot vouch for strangers being friendly to other strangers (with the exception of when help is needed, like if your car is stuck on the side of the road, that's when we canadians really shine lol), I can say that once you become an acquaintance with a Canadian they become just as friendly as everyone thinks we are. 

Of course, like I mentioned before, Canadians don't take well to assholes, so long as you treat us nicely, we will treat you with the same niceness ten fold! 

Like you said, Canadians are quite in discriminatory, we don't judge people nearly as much as in other countries and we have great cultural diversity. As for dark alleys though, I would't dar walk in dark alleys in the more urban areas, but in small towns and suburbs, there is essentially no danger at all. I think the most dangerous thing that has ever happened in the suburbs was some crazy teens lighting fireworks in their hands, not smart really, but honestly that's as bad as it gets, nothing worse than that.

Anyway again, this is off topic, so...

/thread-derail-again


----------



## ryanleblanc (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> This is why I always laugh whenever Americans rag on Canada. I've always assumed it was jealousy because we're so tolerant and carefree.
> Smoke a joint in the states? Get thrown in jail. Get caught with a joint here? No big deal, at least he aint carrying bags of it.
> Have a gay friend in the states? You don't talk about it. Have a gay friend in Canada? You talk about em like it's nothing new. I remember as a kid my mom would tell me about her gay friends and it never hit anybody as "OH MY GOD, THAT'S TABOO!" it was just like.. "so he's gay. okay and how does that affect how he works or talks with friends?"
> 
> Gay isn't taboo here



Very true, we had a total Flamer in my old high school and if this were the states he would have stayed in the closet forever while everyone would pass rumours that he was gay (since he was such a flamer). But since this was Canada, there were no rumours, everybody knew and just didn't care, when he came out, there was no surprise, there was no shunning, in fact I'm pretty sure he got more popular.

Edit: Damn, doublepost, *sorry everybody*, I was sure somebody would have ninja'd me by now, guess not. I will try harder in the future to prevent this.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

ryanleblanc said:


> Very true, we had a total Flamer in my old high school and if this were the states he would have stayed in the closet forever while everyone would pass rumours that he was gay (since he was such a flamer). But since this was Canada, there were no rumours, everybody knew and just didn't care, when he came out, there was no surprise, there was no shunning, in fact I'm pretty sure he got more popular.
> 
> Edit: Damn, doublepost, *sorry everybody*, I was sure somebody would have ninja'd me by now, guess not. I will try harder in the future to prevent this.



Yup. I've known of "the gay kid(s)" at my highschools.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Yup. I've known of "the gay kid(s)" at my highschools.



Yeah, I wish I were in Canada. I don't like Ohio. Too many people obsessed with farm animals and religion. 

On topic, there's a gay kid a year older than me. He wanted to be a nurse in the first grade, so no one was really surprised.


----------



## MetaBaka (Jan 26, 2012)

well i have been gay all of my life so i am not really sure how it is differant from being straight other than i like the same sex.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 26, 2012)

Yago said:


> Yeah, I wish I were in Canada. I don't like Ohio. Too many people obsessed with farm animals and religion.
> 
> On topic, there's a gay kid a year older than me. He wanted to be a nurse in the first grade, so no one was really surprised.



"Nurse" is a term for male or female nurses.. it isn't an effeminate job 

though this concept of "a little boy wants to do more effeminate things!! HE'S GAY!!!" is what causes kids to hide in the closet.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> "Nurse" is a term for male or female nurses.. it isn't an effeminate job
> 
> though this concept of "a little boy wants to do more effeminate things!! HE'S GAY!!!" is what causes kids to hide in the closet.



No, he drew a picture of a female nurse. You'd had to have seen the picture, trust me. And I know. I don't care about the effeminate things, though it can indicate one's sexuality, it's not quite as accurate as you'd think.


----------



## Spatel (Jan 26, 2012)

I live in the southeastern US, but I've found the Triangle area of NC is pretty accommodating. The culture is much more progressive and tolerant than the rest of the state. The first openly gay mayor in the southeast came from here.

We were the only state left in the southeast without a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, although that could change this year. I'm disappointed. I would like to see a lot more campaigning and vigor on the part of voters, but I haven't seen very much talk about it, strangely. Feels like people have already accepted its passage as a foregone conclusion.


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Kinda hope the feds make same sex marriage completely legal, and prevent states from banning it.


----------



## Namba (Jan 26, 2012)

Clayton said:


> "Nurse" is a term for male or female nurses.. it isn't an effeminate job
> 
> though this concept of "a little boy wants to do more effeminate things!! HE'S GAY!!!" is what causes kids to hide in the closet.


I'm gonna study to become a nurse. Not a feminine job!


----------



## Yago (Jan 26, 2012)

Luti Kriss said:


> I'm gonna study to become a nurse. Not a feminine job!



I know, but again you'd have to have seen it in the context... Oh nevermind.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 27, 2012)

Yago said:


> No, he drew a picture of a female nurse. You'd had to have seen the picture, trust me. And I know. I don't care about the effeminate things, though it can indicate one's sexuality, it's not quite as accurate as you'd think.



still, dude
adults applying sexual orientations to children is what makes children grow up questioning if what they like is "normal"

if a boy wants to play with barbies instead of army men or a girl wants to play with army men instead of barbies, let them
let them figure out what orientation they have later on in life when they're ready to be mature about that sort of thing

me?
I just played outside pretending I was a cat by myself or played "school" with beanie babies.


----------



## The_Mask (Jan 27, 2012)

Clayton said:


> let them figure out what orientation they have later on in life when they're ready to be mature about that sort of thing
> 
> me?
> I just played outside pretending I was a cat by myself or played "school" with beanie babies.


Right. You can't expect children to even comprehend that sort of thing. Everything is the same to them, which is such a wonderful way to see the world.
Who the hell didn't pretend they were a cat? Cat's are awesome.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 27, 2012)

The_Mask said:


> Who the hell didn't pretend they were a cat? Cat's are awesome.


No, fuck that. Horses and dogs.


----------



## Yago (Jan 27, 2012)

Clayton said:


> still, dude
> adults applying sexual orientations to children is what makes children grow up questioning if what they like is "normal"
> 
> if a boy wants to play with barbies instead of army men or a girl wants to play with army men instead of barbies, let them
> ...



Yeah, I did stuff like that as well, and I know the gender stereotypes fucks people up. I've never been into anything stereotypically "gay" or feminine, but the same is true for masculine. I've always been fairly neutral and gotten a lot of trouble for it. I'm accepting of everybody.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 27, 2012)

Ad Hoc said:


> No, fuck that. Horses and dogs.


FUCK YEAHHH!!
SPIRIT! STALLION OF THE BACKYARD
yeah i did it when I was 12 or so
what the fuck of it?


----------



## BRN (Jan 27, 2012)

I've always appreciated the Canadian hospitality. I live in a middle-class part of England that's extremely representative of the culturally conservative stereotype. Having a number of friends in Canada from a few visits and due to online interaction, and not to mention all that snow, I'm a real fan of the country.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 27, 2012)

SIX said:


> I've always appreciated the Canadian hospitality. I live in a middle-class part of England that's extremely representative of the culturally conservative stereotype. Having a number of friends in Canada from a few visits and due to online interaction, and not to mention all that snow, I'm a real fan of the country.


Hah, I bet they're gonna get a massive culture shock over there.
I think the stereotypical view of England is cold, grey, mossy, rainy
and also haggis or something


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 27, 2012)

Gibby said:


> You should come to england someday and you and I will hunt for wild haggis.


shouldnt be hard, i hear theyre slow & roam in herds


----------



## BRN (Jan 27, 2012)

Clayton said:


> shouldnt be hard, i hear theyre slow & roam in herds



No, that's Londoners. :v


----------



## Dreaming (Jan 27, 2012)

SIX said:


> No, that's Londoners. :v



Damn those Cockneys. :v


----------



## thewall (Jan 27, 2012)

I used to be EXTREMELY homophobic, but nowadays I do my very best to be tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 27, 2012)

thewall said:


> I used to be EXTREMELY homophobic, but nowadays I do my very best to be tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.


Well, that is admirable, and a good sign of personal growth. If homophobia/transphobia were really that ingrained in you, though, know that it will likely take quite a bit of time to truly work it out.


----------



## Milo (Jan 27, 2012)

thewall said:


> I used to be EXTREMELY homophobic, but nowadays I do my very best to be tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.



sounds to me like you've still got as much hatred for gays as you used to, but simply trying to cover it up. that's nice and all, but if I were to be around a group of people with a certain lifestyle, I'd try and understand them, rather than just tolerate them.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 27, 2012)

Milo said:


> sounds to me like you've still got as much hatred for gays as you used to, but simply trying to cover it up. that's nice and all, but if I were to be around a group of people with a certain lifestyle, I'd try and understand them, rather than just tolerate them.



i think for now it would be a great step forwards if we all just started to at least tolerate each other and quit accusing people of being abominations simply because they arent compatible with their system of morality 

homophobia is kinda bad here in germany as well. when you are in berlin or the bigger cities in general and you ride the subway chances are you are gonna get beaten up when someone finds out you are gay or into people of the same sex in any way. i dont want to sound like a racist but this is mainly due to the large populations of foreigners there. its usually turks who do it.
we do have civil unions for same sex couples here but that isnt really ideal as well... in mecklenburg vorpommern, one of the states of germany, the same ministry that is reposible for waste disposal is responsible for these civil unions... you are essentially getting "married" next to a huge dump there :T

at work we have a HUGE asshole who is really homophobic and one of those super christians. he judges EVERYONE for not believing what he believes. i wonder what would happen if he found out that im bi XD i mean, i once told him that i dont like soccer (he is a huge soccer fan as well) and he flat out stopped talking to me that day simply because i said that. he just turned around and left. now imagine what would happen when he found out about me XD


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## Kitutal (Jan 27, 2012)

thewall said:


> I used to be EXTREMELY homophobic, but nowadays I do my very best to be tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.



Mind if I ask why, what is it we're supposedly doing so terribly wrong to get this much hate?


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## CaptainCool (Jan 27, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Mind if I ask why, what is it we're supposedly doing so terribly wrong to get this much hate?



that is something id like to know as well. apparently its "not ethical" to be gay but how can the _nature_ of a human (at least that part that regulates what he wants to bone) be unethical or morally wrong?
personally i blame religion. that is the only explanation people were able to give me about that so far. either that or "its not natural" while it clearly IS natural. at least there is no evidence that it isnt natural.
even if most people have the opiniont hat being gay is wrong that is _completely_ irrelevant. they are turning their opinion and believes into facts even though they have NO evidence that being gay is wrong. they are forcing it on other people. and unlike homosexuality THAT is VERY wrong and unethical! its complete bigotry.
ive seen a video on youtube where someone said to a gay man that he wouldnt sit there if he didnt have a mother and a father. the audience gave her applause... i almost cried because of how stupid that argument was DX


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## Recel (Jan 27, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Mind if I ask why, what is it we're supposedly doing so terribly wrong to get this much hate?



I'll try to be totally rude, angry and stupid about the question. Just to represent the majority of homophobes.
With this attitude, wich isn't new to me. :V I would say... breathing.

But to give a more serious answer, its just like racism. Your gay, thus your bad. Why you're bad? Your gay. It's a loop, just like racism.
It kind of grows out of an ego like thing. You know, people like to say that heterosexual men are normal, wich instantly projects abnormal to anything outside of those settings. And the word abnormal already has a kind of bad ring to it, so everything that is marked abnormal can be labelled with bad. And as you can see on this forum too, people often hate things that are bad from their perspective, no matter the degree. It's bad, they hate it.
So, if now you put the first and the last bit together you get that gay = bad and thus must be hated.

I might be right, but probably not. But I can't think of anything else right now.


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## Aetius (Jan 27, 2012)

I am only homophobic for the laughs.


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## Milo (Jan 27, 2012)

Crusader Mike said:


> I am only homophobic for the laughs.



and you have a boyfriend for the laughs too I assume? :V


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## Yago (Jan 27, 2012)

Meh. I honestly used to be really homophobic and hatey. But I got over it, besides, looking back I've never been straight so it's ironic.


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## BRN (Jan 27, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Mind if I ask why, what is it we're supposedly doing so terribly wrong to get this much hate?



 The Church is an organisation designed to continually propogate itself. It desired masses of people under its control to expand itself via missionaries. Gay couples were not in line with this agenda, and became demonised. Thousands of years worth of generations later, this demonisation has become rather settled.


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## Yago (Jan 27, 2012)

SIX said:


> The Church is an organisation designed to continually propogate itself. It desired masses of people under its control to expand itself via missionaries. Gay couples were not in line with this agenda, and became demonised. Thousands of years worth of generations later, this demonisation has become rather settled.



Something similar happened with the Jewish too, IIRC.


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## Bliss (Jan 27, 2012)

Crusader Mike said:


> I am only homophobic for the laughs.


You are only homophobic for the closet.


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## Dreaming (Jan 27, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Mind if I ask why, what is it we're supposedly doing so terribly wrong to get this much hate?



''Because it's not normal and shit, heeeeerp. Society says it's wrong and has done for 100's of years, since when has society's judgment been wrong? deeeeeeerp. Lets all blindly follow what society teaches us and shun the crap out of anyone who says otherwise, hurrdurr''

Pretty much that :V


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## Kitutal (Jan 27, 2012)

The way I see it, sudden idea that came to me this morning, the question is where to draw the line. I could spend time with male friends if I want, we could go bowling or play football or lay on the bed naked playing with each others' bits, where abouts do you draw the line, and why, what is the difference in the end, it's just a bit of fun with people you enjoy spending time with and noone gets hurt. (other than the football, which isn't fun and does hurt)


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## Yago (Jan 27, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> The way I see it, sudden idea that came to me this morning, the question is where to draw the line. I could spend time with male friends if I want, we could go bowling or play football or lay on the bed naked playing with each others' bits, where abouts do you draw the line, and why, what is the difference in the end, it's just a bit of fun with people you enjoy spending time with and noone gets hurt. (other than the football, which isn't fun and does hurt)



I'm fairly open. I'd probably draw the line as per normal friendship standards, barbecue *ahem* BECUASE (ignore barbeque it autocorrected to that somehow from because.) things tend to get complex afterwards.


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## The_Mask (Jan 28, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> The way I see it, sudden idea that came to me this morning, the question is where to draw the line. I could spend time with male friends if I want, we could go bowling or play football or *LINE* lay on the bed naked playing with each others' bits, where abouts do you draw the line, and why, what is the difference in the end, it's just a bit of fun with people you enjoy spending time with and noone gets hurt. (other than the football, which isn't fun and does hurt)



Right there. That generally doesn't constitute as casual activities with friends. Pretty much what Yago said.


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## Yago (Jan 28, 2012)

Should I had some future insight to know the circumstances would not change whatsoever after intercourse, yes, I would indeed mess around with friends.

That said, things don't' work that way, because we are not animals and people have emotions which are associated with chemical processes in the brain associated with intercourse. Things end up messy.


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## Roose Hurro (Jan 28, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> The god I know wants us to love. *Who we love i dont think matters.* Compassion and love. Who you use it on shouldnt matter.



To God, no, it doesn't matter... but who we have sex with does, when it comes to the topic.  Love and sex are two different things.


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## The_Mask (Jan 28, 2012)

Yago said:


> Should I had some future insight to know the circumstances would not change whatsoever after intercourse, yes, I would indeed mess around with friends.



That's what hookers are for. :V


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jan 28, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> The way I see it, sudden idea that came to me this morning, the question is where to draw the line. I could spend time with male friends if I want, we could go bowling or play football or lay on the bed naked playing with each others' bits, where abouts do you draw the line, and why, what is the difference in the end, it's just a bit of fun with people you enjoy spending time with and noone gets hurt. (other than the football, which isn't fun and does hurt)


uh the line can pretty much generally be drawn before the in bed naked with your friend, and sex always complicates things.


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## Kitutal (Jan 28, 2012)

I should clarify this, I meant drawing a line between what two men (or potentially two women, if you want) can do together, rather than what friends can. Of course I know not to complicate a friendship in that way.


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## CaptainCool (Jan 28, 2012)

Roose Hurro said:


> To God, no, it doesn't matter... but who we have sex with does, when it comes to the topic.  Love and sex are two different things.



religion still shouldnt matter in this case though because its a personal believe. why should I care whether i hurt the feelings of someones imaginary friend simply because i am how i am?
and besides, if god wanted me to be straight he should have made me that way. he also made me an athiest which was bsaically his second mistake while making me.


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## Volkodav (Jan 28, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> The way I see it, sudden idea that came to me this morning, the question is where to draw the line. I could spend time with male friends if I want, we could go bowling or play football or lay on the bed naked playing with each others' bits, where abouts do you draw the line, and why, what is the difference in the end, it's just a bit of fun with people you enjoy spending time with and noone gets hurt. (other than the football, which isn't fun and does hurt)



"Where to draw the line" for what? What is considered gay and what isn't?
You ever hear "gay for pay"? Those dudes engage in anal sex with other men for $$ but they're straight. Sexual contact only becomes gay when you have a sexual attraction for the same sex.


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## Roose Hurro (Jan 28, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> religion still shouldnt matter in this case though because its a personal believe. why should I care whether i hurt the feelings of someones imaginary friend simply because i am how i am?
> and besides, if god wanted me to be straight he should have made me that way. he also made me an athiest which was bsaically his second mistake while making me.



You make yourself... God is not responsible for your choices in life.  You are who you are because you choose to be, not because you were "made" that way.  Here, read this:  http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120128/D9SHOANO0.html


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## Volkodav (Jan 28, 2012)

Roose Hurro said:


> You make yourself... God is not responsible for your choices in life.  You are who you are because you choose to be, not because you were "made" that way.  Here, read this:  http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120128/D9SHOANO0.html



You're only choosing to be straight because you know deep down inside you're attracted to men, but you're scared god wont love you if you come out about it.


I bet god loves me
sexist, racist, pro-killing people who disagree with me, etc
this is sarcasm/joking


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## Yago (Jan 28, 2012)

Roose Hurro said:


> You make yourself... God is not responsible for your choices in life.  You are who you are because you choose to be, not because you were "made" that way.  Here, read this:  http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120128/D9SHOANO0.html



But many of those "choices" happen far before we have understand or control of ourselves.  There are aspects of ourselves we can control, yes. And there are ones that are ingrained. The ingrained ones are VERY difficult to change, but sometimes can be done. These are often base traits such as sexuality or attachments styles, which are found in babies and are key indicators as to ones personality later. (This is not set in stone, but is fairly reliable. I forget the correlation, but it was respectable). Other events outside our control such as, oh say, being abused influence our personalities and aspects of ourselves. Again, these aren't things you choose to have happen to you that affect you. You can CHOOSE to change them, but it usually is incredibly difficult and emotional. 

I'm basically just saying not everything's a choice, you know? I'd certainly choose my sexuality if I had a choice, though. Bisexuality's pretty damn neat.


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## Blutide (Jan 28, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I know I am opening a can of worms but please bare with me on this.
> 
> I have been watching a lot of films on the history of acceptance in america. Considering im american and only have access to my opinion, this is my only view of it. So there is that. My question is- What is it to be gay. When you are attracted to your SO what makes fire works go off. I am just better trying to understand. I accept all peoples. I have to admit that growing up it was told its a no no. So on and so forth. But one thing that kept bugging me "eating shrimp, eating pigs, wearing clothes made of two different materials" are all "abominations". So christians who use this- i fucking hate you with every organ i own. Why do people hate this. If it doesnt bother you why complain about it.
> 
> ...



Not sure I understand the nature of the question, but here it goes. Other than people saying," YOUR GAY? NO WAY " or how ever they phrase that when you talk about it finally. It's not really any different than the "straight" world in respects of living and working for me. As far as finding a mate and all that, its difficult for me to find someone that isn't sheepish. What sets off my attraction? The way they act, Face and body type ( husky is still sexy ) and so on and so forth. 

But honestly I don't understand what the main question is being asked.


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## Volkodav (Jan 28, 2012)

I always laugh whenever a religious nutjob yammers about gay/les/bi/trans being a choice.

Yes, yes, you're right! How could I have ever believed differently! I'm so stupid. Of *course* being LGBT is a choice!
They choose to be disowned, abused, killed, executed, bullied, harassed, alienated, isolated, told that they're a disappointment every day of their life, etc etc

How could I have been so *stupid*!!
Thank you, Roose! Thank you for opening my mind!


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## BRN (Jan 28, 2012)

Clayton said:


> I always laugh whenever a religious nutjob yammers about gay/les/bi/trans being a choice.
> 
> Yes, yes, you're right! How could I have ever believed differently! I'm so stupid. Of *course* being LGBT is a choice!
> They choose to be disowned, abused, killed, executed, bullied, harassed, alienated, isolated, told that they're a disappointment every day of their life, etc etc
> ...



I'm fairly sure that Roose was, quite eloquently, ranting at the people who do claim it's a choice, not siding along with them


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## Volkodav (Jan 28, 2012)

SIX said:


> I'm fairly sure that Roose was, quite eloquently, ranting at the people who do claim it's a choice, not siding along with them



"You make yourself... God is not responsible for your choices in life. You are who you are because you choose to be, not because you were "made" that way."

Really? How could I have misunderstood that?!


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## Kitutal (Jan 28, 2012)

You do have the choice to ignore it though, to push all those thoughts further into the back of your mind and never give in to temtation. A great way to ruin your life and never have a chance at happiness, brought to us by a religion that claims love outranks faith in terms of importance in life.


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## Volkodav (Jan 28, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> You do have the choice to ignore it though, to push all those thoughts further into the back of your mind and never give in to temtation. A great way to ruin your life and never have a chance at happiness, brought to us by a religion that claims love outranks faith in terms of importance in life.



Okay, so two men who love each other shouldn't engage in sexual intercourse because your imaginary friend will get upset?

If god/religious people hate gays/les/bi so much, why the fuck are they so concerned with where they're gonna go after they die? I hate many people, I don't care what happens to them when they die. I wouldn't give a rats ass if they were cremated, thrown into a lake, thrown in a box in the ground, heaven, hell, etc.


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## Yago (Jan 28, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Okay, so two men who love each other shouldn't engage in sexual intercourse because your imaginary friend will get upset?
> 
> If god/religious people hate gays/les/bi so much, why the fuck are they so concerned with where they're gonna go after they die? I hate many people, I don't care what happens to them when they die. I wouldn't give a rats ass if they were cremated, thrown into a lake, thrown in a box in the ground, heaven, hell, etc.




That's a good question, and one only that can be answered by religious people. I hate how people will wreck their (most likely, though cannot be proven) one chance to have a fun life worrying about some afterlife. Reminds me of that cliche about only a fool gives up gold in search of false diamonds.


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## Volkodav (Jan 28, 2012)

Yago said:


> That's a good question, and one only that can be answered by religious people. I hate how people will wreck their (most likely, though cannot be proven) one chance to have a fun life worrying about some afterlife. Reminds me of that cliche about only a fool gives up gold in search of false diamonds.



Their reply will be some bullshit thing about God's children helping each other get to heaven yadda yadda
It doesn't seem very helpful to me that "God's children" "help" each other by bullying each other to suicide. One would think that "helping" someone get to heaven would go hand in hand with helping them live an enjoyable life. You know, telling people that being gay isn't a choice, that they're a great person, etc.

"God hates fags" doesn't help people get to Heaven because the "fags" commit suicide and suicide is a sin.


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## Yago (Jan 28, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Their reply will be some bullshit thing about God's children helping each other get to heaven yadda yadda
> It doesn't seem very helpful to me that "God's children" "help" each other by bullying each other to suicide. One would think that "helping" someone get to heaven would go hand in hand with helping them live an enjoyable life. You know, telling people that being gay isn't a choice, that they're a great person, etc.
> 
> "God hates fags" doesn't help people get to Heaven because the "fags" commit suicide and suicide is a sin.



Oh, absolutely. I honestly despise religion. I'm agnostic for a reason. I don't care about deities, and it most likely can't be figured out whether they are real enough. Let's leave it alone, and go do something productive besides worry about a possible genie in the sky pissed because we did something trivial in our life it couldn't control.


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## The_Mask (Jan 28, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> You do have the choice to ignore it though, to push all those thoughts further into the back of your mind and never give in to temtation. A great way to ruin your life and never have a chance at happiness, brought to us by a religion that claims love outranks faith in terms of importance in life.


I've seen people try that in these little backwoods towns before, and the result was often tragic. I lived in this one town that had at least 5 churches withing 2 miles of each-other on the main road, and another one every 5 miles after that. The immediate population of the town was only 1000, but given that it was a rural area, it was more like 5000. Anyways, in a gossip fueled "Christian" community like that, every time a gay person made themselves apparent, they were tormented constantly by the locals until they either committed suicide or were driven away. And every time that happened these people went right back to pretending they're kind people when their horns were clearly visible. Tragic. WTF am I ranting on about? I think I've had to much caffeine.


Clayton said:


> Their reply will be some bullshit thing about God's children helping each other get to heaven yadda yadda
> It doesn't seem very helpful to me that "God's children" "help" each other by bullying each other to suicide. One would think that "helping" someone get to heaven would go hand in hand with helping them live an enjoyable life. You know, telling people that being gay isn't a choice, that they're a great person, etc.
> 
> "God hates fags" doesn't help people get to Heaven because the "fags" commit suicide and suicide is a sin.


The number of people who claim to be Christian but don't actually follow any of the teachings of morality provided is absolutely appalling, especially here in the south. They go to church on Sunday and assume that's good enough and go right back to hating the world for the other 6 days of the week. If these people actually payed attention, whether the Bible was written by lunatics under the influence of hallucinogens or not, they'd realize that good moral fiber is more important than literal interpretations of a book that's 1500 years old made from scrolls found in caves in the middle east. Did I make sense right there? Probably not, but who cares.


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## greg-the-fox (Jan 28, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Okay, so two men who love each other shouldn't engage in sexual intercourse because your imaginary friend will get upset?
> 
> If god/religious people hate gays/les/bi so much, why the fuck are they so concerned with where they're gonna go after they die? I hate many people, I don't care what happens to them when they die. I wouldn't give a rats ass if they were cremated, thrown into a lake, thrown in a box in the ground, heaven, hell, etc.



Because Christians believe it's their mission in life to 'save' people from eternal damnation -_-
They honestly think they're doing us a favor...


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## Traven V (Jan 28, 2012)

I have to say it wasn't easy growing up, my family hated me my mom was born again religious baptist and my dad that's another story. They pretty much knew I was gay when I hit puberty, caught me fooling around with a close friend after that my mom promised me if I didn't stop and/or change I was going to hell, great parenting huh. It's left a scar on my heart, anyways, what is it like? It's a beauty a feeling of happiness, a bit of hormones (to put it lightly and PC) heart races, electric type feeling, I feel a bit shy. Ack, even writing this post is bringing back memories XD


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## BlauShep (Jan 29, 2012)

it sucks. a lot of days i just wake up and think, holy shit, i'm such a freak. i have to take hormones to change my body and get surgery so maybe i won't hate myself so much. and even then, i won't be cis. i'll probably still feel like a freak. i'll have to come out to everyone in my family, and i doubt any of them will help me, so i'll have to afford all of this shit on my own.

feels bad man.

as for my sexuality, i've always felt more attracted to just individual people rather than specific genders. love is genderless, or some hippie shit like that idk.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Jan 29, 2012)

Yago said:


> *But many of those "choices" happen far before we have understand or control of ourselves.*  There are aspects of ourselves we can control, yes. And there are ones that are ingrained. The ingrained ones are VERY difficult to change, but sometimes can be done. These are often base traits such as sexuality or attachments styles, which are found in babies and are key indicators as to ones personality later. (This is not set in stone, but is fairly reliable. I forget the correlation, but it was respectable). Other events outside our control such as, oh say, being abused influence our personalities and aspects of ourselves. Again, these aren't things you choose to have happen to you that affect you. You can CHOOSE to change them, but it usually is incredibly difficult and emotional.
> 
> I'm basically just saying not everything's a choice, you know? I'd certainly choose my sexuality if I had a choice, though. Bisexuality's pretty damn neat.



This is true, but, as you've noted with your ref to abuse, _someone_ had to make a choice in how you were raised, until you were old enough to make your own choices.  But sexuality is a personal thing, not usually, far as I know, forced upon you.  Unless you consider social conventions when it comes to raising boys verses girls, but then, it's to be expected.  If you go against those conventions, then you have made a choice to do so.  Even if you feel like you had no choice.  But that's simplifying what is really a very complex issue, with opinion flying on both sides.

In other words, we could discuss this till we're all old and grey, if not rotted into fertilizer, without coming to an agreement.




Clayton said:


> I always laugh whenever a religious nutjob yammers about gay/les/bi/trans being a choice.
> 
> Yes, yes, you're right! How could I have ever believed differently! I'm so stupid. Of *course* being LGBT is a choice!
> They choose to be disowned, abused, killed, executed, bullied, harassed, alienated, isolated, told that they're a disappointment every day of their life, etc etc
> ...



You're welcome.  Now, provide scientific evidence that sexual orientation has a proven, biological basis, then we can talk further.  No religion needs to be involved.




SIX said:


> I'm fairly sure that Roose was, quite eloquently, ranting at the people who do claim it's a choice, not siding along with them



I could call myself a very "pro-choice" person on this, but I think it's possible there may be a bit of both involved.  Usually, in things similar to this, there is an inherent... well, call it a "wild card".  For all we know, sexual orientation may have some relation to gambling addiction.  Heh.  But I'm still a big believer that we have the power to do amazing things, if we only choose to do so.  And like in the article I linked to, it may be that for some, it's a choice, for others, what might be termed a compulsion.  Or something similar.  I'm with that lady that it is an individual thing, and that no one should say "choice" is not in the cards.  Just like no one can say that a gay person can't go straight.




Clayton said:


> "You make yourself... God is not responsible for your choices in life. You are who you are because you choose to be, not because you were "made" that way."
> 
> Really? *How could I have misunderstood that?!*



Easy... I was responding to CaptainCool's "if god wanted me to be straight he should have made me that way."  God made us male and female... what we do with that is our choice.  Though if you want to put nature into it, then it would stand to reason, given the counterproductive results of homosexuality (when it comes to procreation of the species), that homosexuality is a medical condition.  In other words, a defect.  Perhaps in that way you could be considered "made".  But like I said to Clayton, you would need scientific proof.  But even that wouldn't change the fact homosexuality is an abberation, and therefore, not "normal".  If it was, heterosexuality would be the abberation.  Scientifically speaking.   




Clayton said:


> Okay, so two men who love each other shouldn't engage in sexual intercourse because your imaginary friend will get upset?



Remember what I said:  Love and sex are not the same thing.  You can love someone without wanting to have sex with them.




Yago said:


> That's a good question, and one only that can be answered by religious people. I hate how people will wreck their (most likely, though cannot be proven) one chance to have a fun life worrying about some afterlife. *Reminds me of that cliche about only a fool gives up gold in search of false diamonds.*



But the actual question is, who has the gold, and who has the fake diamonds?  Can't know the answer to that till the day you die.




Clayton said:


> "God hates fags"



God hates sin, not the sinner.




BlauShep said:


> love is genderless



Indeed, which is why love and sex are two different things.  You can love someone whatever their gender.  But when that "love" turns to sex, that's where the line is drawn.


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## Tao (Jan 29, 2012)

D'you think it's odd to be a trap but not want a sex change?


----------



## Onnes (Jan 29, 2012)

Roose, you can believe whatever you want--and certainly evidence will never dissuade you--but it is the stated position of damn near every relevant professional organization in the developed world that sexual orientation is largely not a matter of choice. Seriously, just consider how difficult it would be for most heterosexuals to "choose" to be homosexual. I'm not saying you couldn't make them homosexual through some program of extensive brainwashing or similar psychological torment, but that such examples have no bearing on whether one can normally modify their sexual attractions. The idea that the average person gets to choose their sexual orientation is, with any thought, simply absurd.


----------



## Kellie Gator (Jan 29, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> You do have the choice to ignore it though, to push all those thoughts further into the back of your mind and never give in to temtation. A great way to ruin your life and never have a chance at happiness, brought to us by a religion that claims love outranks faith in terms of importance in life.


lol no. I tried doing that with my transsexualism for 18 years and shit was going really fucking badly because of it.



Tao said:


> D'you think it's odd to be a trap but not want a sex change?


Not really, a lot of dudes like to dress up as girls merely for fun or a sexual thrill. A sex reassignment surgery is hardly a requirement.


----------



## Yago (Jan 29, 2012)

@Roose (not quoting the wall of text). There has been some genetic linking (though not enough correlation to make it a fact) of homosexuality, and pretty much all psychosciences use the theory thing that nature and nurture jointly influence, which is mostly likely 100% true.

Either way, it doesn't really matter. I choose to ACCEPT my orientation, but I don't think I chose it, though some certainly can. Though, if I was a blank slate and could choose, I WOULD choose my orientation, because, IMO bisexuality's just the best.


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## Keeroh (Jan 29, 2012)

Tao said:


> D'you think it's odd to be a trap but not want a sex change?


  Nope. Not everyone who enjoys cross dressing to whatever extent experiences gender dysphoria or wishes for surgery. Gender expression is a giant wibbly-wobbly ball of varied experience.


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## Cain (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm slightly annoyed by cross-dressers. Having a slightly girly sense of fashion, or in some cases any sort of fashion sense at all, is fine.

Deliberately dressing up like a stereotypical female, like miniskirts, stockings, low-cut t-shirts, just annoys and slightly disgusts me.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jan 29, 2012)

Roose Hurro said:


> You're welcome.  Now, provide scientific evidence that sexual orientation has a proven, biological basis, then we can talk further.  No religion needs to be involved.



You're only half right. You can choose to _not_ act as LGBT, but then you're lying to yourself and those around you, and I can tell you it's horrible.


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## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

Roose Hurro said:


> You're welcome.  Now, provide scientific evidence that sexual orientation has a proven, biological basis, then we can talk further.  No religion needs to be involved.



its quite simple. animals do it, too. there are TONS of species out there that show homosexual behavior. not just to show their dominance but there are also animals that live in same sex couples!
there is also a relation between homosexuality becomming more common among humans and the growth of our worldwide population. its a mechanism to prevent overpopulation!
you are also failing to deliver any arguments for your own claim, that it ISNT natural.

you are also talking about how god made us or rather that he actually does exist. can you give us ANY evidence for that?
i mean, the way you talk about how he has such a big effect on our daily lives im sure that you can show me at least a little evidence that he exists. *snark*


----------



## Cain (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> its quite simple. animals do it, too. there are TONS of species out there that show homosexual behavior. not just to show their dominance but there are also animals that live in same sex couples!
> there is also a relation between homosexuality becomming more common among humans and the growth of our worldwide population. _*its a mechanism to prevent overpopulation!*_
> you are also failing to deliver any arguments for your own claim, that it ISNT natural.
> 
> ...



I seriously doubt that.


----------



## Dreaming (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> there is also a relation between homosexuality becomming more common among humans and the growth of our worldwide population. its a mechanism to prevent overpopulation!



Can't tell it that is sarcasm or not, but that..............doesn't sound right.

Perhaps it's becoming more ''common'' because our attitudes towards it, both politically and socially, have vastly improved in the past 100 years?


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

Jagged Edge said:


> I seriously doubt that.



why? the amount of gay is growing faster. it could be its purpose!
but even if it isnt, that still doesnt mean that it is wrong.



Dreaming said:


> Can't tell it that is sarcasm or not, but that..............doesn't sound right.
> 
> Perhaps it's becoming more ''common'' because our attitudes towards it, both politically and socially, have vastly improved in the past 100 years?



that would still imply that it is a choice and people choose to be gay because its a little more accepted now. and i REALLY doubt that! mainly because it isnt a choice.


----------



## Dreaming (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> that would still imply that it is a choice and people choose to be gay because its a little more accepted now. and i REALLY doubt that! mainly because it isnt a choice.



Nope, it would imply that people are more comfortable with coming out and being open.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> Nope, it would imply that people are more comfortable with coming out and being open.



but why should they be more comfortable with it? they still cant get married, they are still being harassed and in africa they are getting murdered for it!
the situation is better than before but its still intolerable. and no one can give me a reason why it should be like that!


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> there is also a relation between homosexuality becomming more common among humans and the growth of our worldwide population. its a mechanism to prevent overpopulation!



There is actually an old myth, I think it was Sumerian, that argues just this, human population becoming too large, gods send down a succession of disasters to get rid of us and start again, realise they need us to they call it off and just introduce measures to reduce population growth, also including disease and such like, and the story is thousands of years old.

Everything we do is natural, because we are ourselves animals, a part of nature, not separate from it in every way, it pervades everything we do, we cannot get outside of our own natural existance.

For what it's worth, though, I did choose to be gay. No really, it was a few weeks before I even started to suspect, back then I had no idea I was anything other than a lonely asexual, and I remember thinking I almost wished I was, it sounded fun, interesting, nice to be a part of a group, something bigger than just myself, and I liked the idea of being able to enjoy being with other people in such an intimate way, something at the time I could not imagine feeling, that whole physical intimacy had never appealed to me before, but on some level I sort of wished it had, as though I was missing out on something by not liking it... And then suddenly I got my wish, and it's just as nice as I hoped, other than my continual lack of a partner to share it with.
though, of course I live in a more relaxed and tollerant country, might be a bit different elsewhere.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't think the population control idea really holds water. In some of the species we've observed homosexual pairings in in the wild, it results in _higher_ offspring survival. For example, the Australian black swan is well known for forming long-term male/male bonds--the chicks that they raise (either breeding with a female and chasing her away after the eggs are laid or stealing a nest) have lower mortality rates. This is because male black swans are larger, stronger, and more aggressive than female black swans. Having two fathers instead of one nets the chicks better protection from predators and a larger defended territory to forage in. It's actually a very effective bit of evolution. 

I'm a little shakier on this but I believe in other species, such as certain species of penguin, the gay pairs that pop up usually adopt abandoned/orphaned eggs and chicks. They aren't producing young of their own, sure, but they're preventing other young from dying--it's still a +1 for the population if they're successful parents. This kind of goes for humans too. Every kid that a gay couple adopts is a kid that might have otherwise died, a century or two ago. Presumably they'll adopt about as many kids as they would have wanted to produce if they were heterosexual, so the population impact is pretty flat. (Barring the fact that our orphans don't usually die anymore, depending on what country they come from.) 

Also it's not really that unusual for gay couples to have kids through surrogacy, anyway.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

well alright then, maybe that theory really is super outdated^^ but that still doesnt make it unnatural. as you guys said, there are plenty of examples for gay animals in the wild.
the fact that those swans are better dads just makes it even better 



Kitutal said:


> For what it's worth, though, I did choose to be gay. No really, it was a few weeks before I even started to suspect, back then I had no idea I was anything other than a lonely asexual, and I remember thinking I almost wished I was, it sounded fun, interesting, nice to be a part of a group, something bigger than just myself, and I liked the idea of being able to enjoy being with other people in such an intimate way, something at the time I could not imagine feeling, that whole physical intimacy had never appealed to me before, but on some level I sort of wished it had, as though I was missing out on something by not liking it... And then suddenly I got my wish, and it's just as nice as I hoped, other than my continual lack of a partner to share it with.
> though, of course I live in a more relaxed and tollerant country, might be a bit different elsewhere.



are you SURE that you chose it? the way you described that it sounds like you simply didnt know that you are gay.
i didnt know that i was bi until i saw a guy i liked, too!


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 29, 2012)

greg-the-fox said:


> Because Christians believe it's their mission in life to 'save' people from eternal damnation -_-
> They honestly think they're doing us a favor...



How well does that work though? How well does it work when they bully and harass LGBT into suicide? Like I said, suicide is a sin.


Roose, what are you talking about. You want me to prove that sexual orientation is biological?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa
Like that? What are you looking for?
I don't think animals understand enough about orientations to be able to choose which orientation they want to have.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> well alright then, maybe that theory really is super outdated^^ but that still doesnt make it unnatural. as you guys said, there are plenty of examples for gay animals in the wild.
> the fact that those swans are better dads just makes it even better


Yep. I'm queer, I'm here, that might actually be an adaptive trait to have in the long run, get used to it. :V


----------



## Dragonfurry (Jan 29, 2012)

edit: wrong place to write this.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 29, 2012)

What makes me laugh about religious nuts is that.. they are so obsessed with our [LGBT] lives that they will do whatever possible to drill into it and drive us to suicide or abandonment.
They care *that much* about what we do in the bedroom that doesn't hurt anybody.


Yet we don't give a shit about their boring, monotonous, missionary sex once a month. Heh.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html
How much do you wanna bet the majority of that porn is gay?


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

Clayton said:


> What makes me laugh about religious nuts is that.. they are so obsessed with our [LGBT] lives that they will do whatever possible to drill into it and drive us to suicide or abandonment.
> They care *that much* about what we do in the bedroom that doesn't hurt anybody.
> 
> 
> ...



true.  but its against their believes so they have to crush it.
this is essentially why i think that christianity is nothing but an evil cult. they are clinging to their weird and nonsensical believes that they cant provide even a TINY amount of evidence for and push it on other people and make them miserable that way.
im not against religion but in my opinion the world would be a lot better off without christians.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> true.  but its against their believes so they have to crush it.
> this is essentially why i think that christianity is nothing but an evil cult. they are clinging to their weird and nonsensical believes that they cant provide even a TINY amount of evidence for and push it on other people and make them miserable that way.
> im not against religion but in my opinion the world would be a lot better off without christians.



The world would be better off without christianity *** and religion in general.


By the dictionary definition, Christianity/religion is a cult:
cult
[kuhlt] â€‚ Origin
cult
â€‚ â€‚[kuhlt]
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

Clayton said:


> The world would be better off without christianity *** and religion in general.
> 
> 
> By the dictionary definition, Christianity/religion is a cult:
> ...



its missing the evil aspect about it though  but i suppose they wanted to be neutral^^


----------



## Aleu (Jan 29, 2012)

Jagged Edge said:


> I'm slightly annoyed by cross-dressers. Having a slightly girly sense of fashion, or in some cases any sort of fashion sense at all, is fine.
> 
> Deliberately dressing up like a stereotypical female, like miniskirts, stockings, low-cut t-shirts, just annoys and slightly disgusts me.



What about women who dress in a stereotypically men type of fashion?


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> its missing the evil aspect about it though  but i suppose they wanted to be neutral^^



Aren't all cults evil though?


----------



## CaptainCool (Jan 29, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Aren't all cults evil though?



not necessarily... but most of them are so i guess you got a point there^^


----------



## Dreaming (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Jagged Edge said:
> 
> 
> > I'm slightly annoyed by cross-dressers.  Having a slightly girly sense of fashion, or in some cases any sort of  fashion sense at all, is fine.
> ...



From what I hear, you have to live at least a year ''as your gender'' before your Therapist will administer any kind of medication or allow any surgery. Basically, I guess that involves dressing stereotypically as your preferred gender.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 29, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> From what I hear, you have to live at least a year ''as your gender'' before your Therapist will administer any kind of medication or allow any surgery. Basically, I guess that involves dressing stereotypically as your preferred gender.


Cross dressing =/= transsexual

That has nothing to do with what I was talking about at all.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 29, 2012)

CaptainCool said:


> are you SURE that you chose it? the way you described that it sounds like you simply didnt know that you are gay.
> i didnt know that i was bi until i saw a guy i liked, too!



That's the point, I didn't know, but I decided I would have wanted to be, had I had the choice.

Though, as well, it did very slowly develop over the following weeks, I didn't suddenly realise I liked men, I started finding them slightly more attractive each day, then after a while started finding the idea of spending time with them more appealing, of doing... things together, three months it took for me to finally reach the point where I knew I did actualy want a serious romantic relationship one day, all along it felt like something growing inside of me, getting bigger and clearer and stronger, and each new feeling pushing its way out from within the last, like a little bud just forming.
So, maybe something else was happening there, I guess I'll never really know.


----------



## windserpent (Jan 29, 2012)

Threads like this are rather ridiculous.

Being gay is exactly like being straight. Really. We're not mystical moon people. We're just people. Who fall in love with other people. Just like you. Our genitals just fit together in different sexy ways than your genitals fit together in sexy ways.


----------



## Dreaming (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Cross dressing =/= transsexual
> 
> That has nothing to do with what I was talking about at all.


I'm not saying that crossdressing = transsexuality at all. =P  What I'm saying is, those who do wish to go through gender therapy, usually do have to go through a stage of ''stereotypical crossdressing'' as part of the process, in effect. Which does have relevance to the original quote.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 29, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> I'm not saying that crossdressing = transsexuality at all. =P  What I'm saying is, those who do wish to go through gender therapy, usually do have to go through a stage of ''stereotypical crossdressing'' as part of the process, in effect. Which does have relevance to the original quote.


then quote the original quote and not mine.


----------



## Kitutal (Jan 29, 2012)

windserpent said:


> Threads like this are rather ridiculous.
> 
> Being gay is exactly like being straight. Really. We're not mystical moon people. We're just people. Who fall in love with other people. Just like you. Our genitals just fit together in different sexy ways than your genitals fit together in sexy ways.



I quite like it actually, if you read through the whole 12 pages, you get an interesting insight into how different people approach the whole issue, with a range of opinions on both sides. In fact, I think I might do just that, it'll be useful research for the book I'm planning on writing.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 29, 2012)

windserpent said:


> Threads like this are rather ridiculous.
> 
> Being gay is exactly like being straight. Really. We're not mystical moon people. We're just people. Who fall in love with other people. Just like you. Our genitals just fit together in different sexy ways than your genitals fit together in sexy ways.


The human experience is broad and requires more insight than just liking one thing or another. Personally, I liked this thread as an insight into how gays are treated here vs. in different areas. I also enjoyed that this thread allowed for an insight into transgenders which are severely misunderstood and I personally feel appreciated now because my post on transgender identity touched quite a few people and broadened their understanding on the issue. I find it rather amazing how our words are touching people, and making them aware of LGBT issues.


----------



## Cain (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> What about women who dress in a stereotypically men type of fashion?


Define stereotypically male clothing.


----------



## Yago (Jan 29, 2012)

Honestly, there have been some theories about overpopulation control with homosexuality. (Which could hold true because there has been some genetic linking, and the higher the population, the greater impact it would have). Either way, I really don't care.

Honestly, I like this thread because it's a good place to talk about it and whatnot.

And windserpent's post made my day.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 29, 2012)

Jagged Edge said:


> Define stereotypically male clothing.



Suits. Pants. Etc

Anything that's not frilly, a skirt, or dress.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu, what they're saying by "living as your desired sex for 1 year" they mean like..
say you were born "Jill" and you've always known you were a "Jack". You have to live as how you feel you would as Jack to the best of your abilities. 
I don't believe clothing has anything to do with it because Jill can want to become Jack but still want to wear Jill's clothing as Jack.

As for the living-as-desired-gender-for-one-year thing.. it's entirely true. They won't even give you the time of day if you waltz in saying "yo, I want a sex change". You must be psychologically evaluated first.


----------



## Cain (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Suits. Pants. Etc
> 
> Anything that's not frilly, a skirt, or dress.


I'm not a female LGBT, so I wouldn't know about how CDing affects the females, but male CDing is stereotypically worse. You see dykes stereotypically wearing manly clothes, but again, I'm not sure how the female LGBT population feels about being stereotyped under the dyke title, along with all the other connotations that derive from that word.


----------



## Aleu (Jan 29, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Aleu, what they're saying by "living as your desired sex for 1 year" they mean like..
> say you were born "Jill" and you've always known you were a "Jack". You have to live as how you feel you would as Jack to the best of your abilities.
> I don't believe clothing has anything to do with it because Jill can want to become Jack but still want to wear Jill's clothing as Jack.
> 
> As for the living-as-desired-gender-for-one-year thing.. it's entirely true. They won't even give you the time of day if you waltz in saying "yo, I want a sex change". You must be psychologically evaluated first.


I know that :I 
I was just saying what they were responding to was irrelevant to my post.


Jagged Edge said:


> I'm not a female LGBT, so I wouldn't know about how CDing affects the females, but male CDing is stereotypically worse. You see dykes stereotypically wearing manly clothes, but again, I'm not sure how the female LGBT population feels about being stereotyped under the dyke title, along with all the other connotations that derive from that word.



I can tell you saying "dyke" is pretty offensive. :/
I'm just saying it's ridiculous to turn a blind eye to women who are wearing pants but if a guy wants to wear a skirt OMG BURN HIM *hisss*


----------



## Yago (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> I know that :I
> I was just saying what they were responding to was irrelevant to my post.
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, dyke's generally considered quite offensive. To my knowledge, so is faggot.

I at least take offense to the latter. The former doesn't bother me nearly as much as I am not one, nor of that gender, but I do have extreme distaste for such hateful words.


----------



## Neuron (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> I'm just saying it's ridiculous to turn a blind eye to women who are wearing pants but if a guy wants to wear a skirt OMG BURN HIM *hisss*


I've seen this up close and personal. Totally fine if I went to a party wearing black jeans and a somewhat masculine shirt, but my girlfriend wears her rave dress and tights and suddenly it's all weird stares and bullshit. What the fuck is the difference? It makes me sad that she can't wear what she wants to on a daily basis because people are assholes.


----------



## Yago (Jan 29, 2012)

Lacus said:


> I've seen this up close and personal. Totally fine if I went to a party wearing black jeans and a somewhat masculine shirt, but my girlfriend wears her rave dress and tights and suddenly it's all weird stares and bullshit. What the fuck is the difference? It makes me sad that she can't wear what she wants to on a daily basis because people are assholes.



Couldn't agree more.

I know this guy(?) not sure of his(?) preferred gender identity, but anyways, he crossdresses. He's a cosmetologist and does damn good haircuts. But he weirds people out. It's quite sad.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 29, 2012)

Aleu said:


> I'm just saying it's ridiculous to turn a blind eye to women who are wearing pants but if a guy wants to wear a skirt OMG BURN HIM *hisss*



I will never understand this, ever.
With girls, if a girl is masculine she is a "tomboy"
With boys, it's "he's a faggot"


----------



## Yago (Jan 30, 2012)

Clayton said:


> I will never understand this, ever.
> With girls, if a girl is masculine she is a "tomboy"
> With boys, it's "he's a faggot"



Ancient sexism still fucks the male gender over making it an atrocity to be feminine or homosexual, since you know, males are just the best thing in the world :V. 

Seriously hate ancient ancestors for fucking us all up with their bullshit.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Jan 30, 2012)

Onnes said:


> Roose, you can believe whatever you want--*and certainly evidence will never dissuade you*--but it is the stated position of damn near every relevant professional organization in the developed world that sexual orientation is largely not a matter of choice. Seriously, just consider how difficult it would be for most heterosexuals to "choose" to be homosexual. I'm not saying you couldn't make them homosexual through some program of extensive brainwashing or similar psychological torment, but that such examples have no bearing on whether one can normally modify their sexual attractions. The idea that the average person gets to choose their sexual orientation is, with any thought, simply absurd.



I have yet to see any conclusive evidence... just lots of people with an agenda to "prove" homosexuality isn't a choice, so they can justify their desires.  It's the whole "I'm not responsible" thing.




Yago said:


> @Roose (not quoting the wall of text). There has been some genetic linking (*though not enough correlation to make it a fact*) of homosexuality, and pretty much all psychosciences use the theory thing that nature and nurture jointly influence, which is mostly likely 100% true.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't really matter. I choose to ACCEPT my orientation, but I don't think I chose it, though some certainly can. Though, if I was a blank slate and could choose, I WOULD choose my orientation, because, IMO bisexuality's just the best.



This is the present problem, in a nutshell.  Is there a correlation?  Or is the issue such that there will ever be any correlation... especially any direct correlation?




Gibby said:


> *You're only half right.* You can choose to _not_ act as LGBT, but then you're lying to yourself and those around you, and I can tell you it's horrible.



And that's okay... if every issue was easy, we'd have solved all our problems thousands of years ago.




CaptainCool said:


> its quite simple. animals do it, too. there are TONS of species out there that show homosexual behavior. not just to show their dominance but there are also animals that live in same sex couples!
> there is also a relation between homosexuality becomming more common among humans and the growth of our worldwide population. its a mechanism to prevent overpopulation!
> you are also failing to deliver any arguments for your own claim, that it ISNT natural.
> 
> ...



The fact I believe he exists is irrelevant.  Someone else brough up the "God" subject, and, like in any discussion where you want to present both sides... if only for the sake of discussion... then, when you present the opposing view, you have to treat it the same as the defending view.  So, for the sake of discussion, you need to go by the assumption God is real.  Whether you believe that or not.  Otherwise, the whole discussion is rather pointless.




Dreaming said:


> Can't tell it that is sarcasm or not, but that..............doesn't sound right.*
> 
> Perhaps it's becoming more ''common'' because our attitudes towards it, both politically and socially, have vastly improved in the past 100 years?*



I'd say _this_.




CaptainCool said:


> that would still imply that it is a choice and people choose to be gay because its a little more accepted now. and i REALLY doubt that! *mainly because it isnt a choice*.



In your opinion.  Others disagree.  Neither side has conclusive evidence.  Possibly because there isn't any, due to the fact it may very well involve a host of factors.




Dreaming said:


> Nope, it would imply that people are more comfortable with coming out and being open.



Again, _this_.




Clayton said:


> Roose, what are you talking about. *You want me to prove that sexual orientation is biological?
> *http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa
> Like that? What are you looking for?
> I don't think animals understand enough about orientations to be able to choose which orientation they want to have.



Sorry, but that article doesn't provide "proof":



> A host of studies since the mid-1990s have found common biological traits between gay men, including left-handedness and the direction of hair whorls. The likelihood that if one identical twin is gay, the other will be also be gay is much higher than the "concordance" of homosexuality between fraternal twins, indicating that genes play a role in sexual orientation, *but are not the entire cause*.





> *Less understood is the degree to which sexual orientation is determined by genes or environmental factors, such as hormones or immunological factors that may act on a foetus.* What scientists call "the fraternal birth order effect", the fact that each successive boy born to the same mother has a greater chance of being gay, may be due to an increasing immunological response by a mother's body to each male foetus in her womb.



An interesting study, but, if you'd noted, further research was due in 2009, meaning this article is old.  Where are the results of that further research?  That would help your case.


----------



## Onnes (Jan 30, 2012)

Roose Hurro said:


> I have yet to see any conclusive evidence... just lots of people with an agenda to "prove" homosexuality isn't a choice, so they can justify their desires.  It's the whole "I'm not responsible" thing.



You ignored most of my post. Let me make it more specific: do you think the average heterosexual male can choose to instead be homosexual? Because when you say that orientation is a choice, you imply that such a switch should be perfectly possible for the average individual.

Here's the APA's referenced report on the subject of therapeutically modifying sexual orientation. (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf) You might take note of how the report differentiates between between sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity.


----------



## Yago (Jan 30, 2012)

@Roose who's giant wall of text I shall yet again not quote for large wall of text related reasons.

Yes, there is a correlation, but it hasn't been high enough or consistent enough to really be a deal breaker either way.

Just about all evidence upon the reasons and genetics of homosexuality is still not helping.

I, too, would say that one of the reasons for homosexuality becoming more frequent is because people are more likely to admit it to themselves and function as their true sexual orientation.


----------



## Lobar (Jan 30, 2012)

If being gay is a choice, then the 99.9+% failure rate of voluntary gay conversion therapy is pretty damned mystifying.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 30, 2012)

Roose, tell me what you want proof of and I will find it

In the meantime, I want *scientific* proof that orientation is a choice. It must not be religion-related in any way.
*go*


----------



## Yago (Jan 30, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Roose, tell me what you want proof of and I will find it
> 
> In the meantime, I want *scientific* proof that orientation is a choice. It must not be religion-related in any way.
> *go*



I certainly doubt he'll find anything. Just about every empirical study has found the exact opposite to be true with high correlations.


----------



## Volkodav (Jan 30, 2012)

Yago said:


> I certainly doubt he'll find anything. Just about every empirical study has found the exact opposite to be true with high correlations.


He won't find a single thing, because scientists know that sexual orientation has to do with brain chemistry and brain chemistry has to do with scientific evidence and his imaginary friend in the sky is not scientific evidence or has anything to do with it.


----------



## Bambi (Jan 30, 2012)

What is it to be gay?

Just another day.


----------



## Commiecomrade (Jan 30, 2012)

Obviously, it means you're stupid.

This thread is so gay.


----------



## Cain (Jan 30, 2012)

Aleu said:


> I can tell you saying "dyke" is pretty offensive. :/
> I'm just saying it's ridiculous to turn a blind eye to women who are wearing pants but if a guy wants to wear a skirt OMG BURN HIM *hisss*


Mmh.
It seems in all aspects of our society, even the lgbt, women crossdressers/tomboys are more favorably looked upon than male crossdressers/femboys.


----------



## Schwimmwagen (Jan 30, 2012)

Jagged Edge said:


> Mmh.
> It seems in all aspects of our society, even the lgbt, women crossdressers/tomboys are more favorably looked upon than male crossdressers/femboys.



It's because straight men can still fap to them.


----------



## Ad Hoc (Jan 30, 2012)

It is unlikely that we will ever identify a definitive cause of homosexuality/GID in humans. To do so would require experimentation on fetuses and children, which is obviously unethical. We might get some insights into it through animal experimentation but there are some limitations there. (Notwithstanding that most animals have no problem with homosexual contact anyway if it feels good, although pair bonding isn't as common.) We might be able to get a better understanding by closely observing existing LGBT individuals, but that it appears there are multiple factors involved complicates things and it's unlikely we'll really hit the bull's eye. 

Requiring LGBT individuals to point to a definitive scientific explanation when none can be ethically or realistically reached is setting up an impossible goal post. We can, however, look to the dismal failure rates of "gay cures" (despite the fact that many of the intended recipients are quite desperate to "fix" it) to see that, while we aren't completely sure what causes it, it's sho'shit not something that's realistically reversible. The AMA and APA gave up on it decades ago. 

Even if it were possible to find the exact cause, who's going to fund that? Now, there's nothing wrong with studies into human sexuality, they can give us some very interesting insights. However, to demand that we find the exact cause and find it now or no equal rights haha, really genuinely go hunting for it and not stop until it's been located is going to cost a pretty penny. Why? Why do this, when there are more pressing things at hand? Why do that just to figure out if my loving, happy, healthy relationship with my boyfriend is legitimate, just to justify it to some weirdo who shouldn't be so bloody concerned about my sex life? I shouldn't have to explain myself to anyone to get damned hospital visitation rights. 



Jagged Edge said:


> Mmh.
> It seems in all aspects of our society, even the lgbt, women crossdressers/tomboys are more favorably looked upon than male crossdressers/femboys.


Because misogyny.


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## Cain (Jan 30, 2012)

Gucci Mane said:


> black by choice
> 
> 
> gucci by the grace of god
> (thank you based god)


What?
This isn't about race, rather than sexuality.


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## Spatel (Jan 30, 2012)

Lobar said:


> If being gay is a choice, then the 99.9+% failure rate of voluntary gay conversion therapy is pretty damned mystifying.



No it isn't. They're trying to pray the gay away with Jesus. Even if you could consciously change your sexuality that's not the way it would work.

anyone here ever heard of queer by choice? The number of people in the queer community who formerly identified as heterosexual and shifted to a homosexual/bisexual lifestyle later on is actually quite high. Many of them claim it was indeed a choice on their part, though they stress it might not be a choice for everyone else.


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## Aleu (Jan 30, 2012)

Spatel said:


> No it isn't. They're trying to pray the gay away with Jesus. Even if you could consciously change your sexuality that's not the way it would work.
> 
> anyone here ever heard of queer by choice? The number of people in the queer community who formerly identified as heterosexual and shifted to a homosexual/bisexual lifestyle later on is actually quite high. Many of them claim it was indeed a choice on their part, though they stress it might not be a choice for everyone else.


Chances are that they're either lying or just discovered their sexuality. They didn't choose.


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## Yago (Jan 30, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Chances are that they're either lying or just discovered their sexuality. They didn't choose.



I believe people can manipulate their sexuality. That does not mean it is a choice, exactly. Through time, they force an ideal set upon themselves. It's essentially self-brain washing, and THAT is not natural.


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## Aleu (Jan 30, 2012)

Yago said:


> I believe people can manipulate their sexuality. That does not mean it is a choice, exactly. Through time, they force an ideal set upon themselves. It's essentially self-brain washing, and THAT is not natural.


Just because you believe it doesn't make it true.


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## Volkodav (Jan 30, 2012)

Roose, homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness/disorder a long time ago. Trans* is still considered a mental disorder.
"Mental disorder" or "mental illness" is defined as a psychological or behavioral problem that causes the person emotional and/or physical distress. I don't see homosexuality as a mental disorder because the most of the mental/emotional distress comes from outside sources, like people shouting "faggot". The distress from a trans* or someone with schizophrenia, ADHD, autism, etc [no, I'm not comparing any of those with trans* people, I'm bunching them all together because trans* is considered a disorder[Trans* is called Gender Identity Disorder.] and I will explain why] comes from the person [in the trans case] not being satisfied or happy living in their own body. Day in and day out, they feel trapped in a body that doesn't feel right, it's in their head. They will never ever be satisfied until they go through drastic changes to turn to their desired gender.
With the three latter disorders, it's mental/psychological issues that causes the person to feel distress every day.

Now, Roose.
Because you seem to believe homosexuality/bisexuality is a choice [which was once/still is by some people considered a disorder like trans*], would you please CHOOSE to be transgender or schizophrenic for one day for me? Just for one day, and please go in public so you can see other people's reactions to it.
I would like to see how you do being any of those for one day.

Cmon, and I'll do it too, I'll try and choose to be trans or ADHD or schizo or something for one day.



Yago said:


> I believe people can manipulate their sexuality. That does not mean it is a choice, exactly. Through time, they force an ideal set upon themselves. It's essentially self-brain washing, and THAT is not natural.


How is it brain-washing if it's considered a mental disorder? Do people brainwash themselves into having mental disorders?
Like, if I sit here and say "I have autism, I have autism, I have autism" over and over again, will I get autism?

The only time there is a choice in trans* is when the person chooses to undergo sexual corrective surgery and even then, they do not choose to be trans*. There is no choice in homosexuality/bisexuality. Unless of course you consider having sex with men "choosing to be gay", in which case I will point you in the direction of Gay For Pay dudes.


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## Aleu (Jan 30, 2012)

Clayton, I REALLY don't think people would like to see Roose in drag >.>


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## Spatel (Jan 30, 2012)

I disagree with that. It does seem like some people choose their sexual identities. Militant feminists that become lesbians--even after dating men for decades, for instance. Though you could argue that just because their sexuality 'changed' doesn't mean they chose it. Perhaps it seemed like a choice for them, when really it was a combination of environmental and emotional factors that caused them to see things differently.

Alternatively, and I'm surprised you didn't bring this up, they could be bisexuals simply choosing to identify as straight or gay at different points of their life. I could believe that; as I've done that.


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## Volkodav (Jan 30, 2012)

Aleu said:


> Clayton, I REALLY don't think people would like to see Roose in drag >.>



I do
To prove me right? Fuck, I'd pay money for that.


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## Aleu (Jan 30, 2012)

Clayton said:


> I do
> To prove me right? Fuck, I'd pay money for that.



Somehow I knew you'd say that. I don't know if this is good or bad, really.


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## Yago (Jan 30, 2012)

As I said, I don't' believe sexuality is so much a choice, but it CAN be  manipulated. The sees what it expects. People use denial etc. to convince themselves. Gays have been playing along as straight for years, I  don't get what's so unrealistic about straights doing it too. People can go through the motions until they truly believe they are something etc. People train themselves. But that does NOT mean it is their true sexuality, it's just altered. Bisexuals could also "choose" like that, like Spatel said.

Believe me,I know it isn't a choice, but that doesn't mean people can't go through the motions until they truly believe they are homosexual etc. As for autism, that's a stupid hyperbole. Don't make logical points that are loosely related and obviously biased like that. Though, yes, if the mind 100% believe strongly enough, it would follow through the motions. But I doubt anyone can get to that point.


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## Aleu (Jan 30, 2012)

Yago said:


> As I said, I don't' believe sexuality is so much a choice, but it CAN be  manipulated. The sees what it expects. People use denial etc. to convince themselves. Gays have been playing along as straight for years, I  don't get what's so unrealistic about straights doing it too. People can go through the motions until they truly believe they are something etc. People train themselves. But that does NOT mean it is their true sexuality, it's just altered. Bisexuals could also "choose" like that, like Spatel said.
> 
> Believe me,I know it isn't a choice, but that doesn't mean people can't go through the motions until they truly believe they are homosexual etc. As for autism, that's a stupid hyperbole. Don't make logical points that are loosely related and obviously biased like that. Though, yes, if the mind 100% believe strongly enough, it would follow through the motions. But I doubt anyone can get to that point.



uh...dating someone isn't the same as "choosing" sexuality or "manipulating it" or whatever. It's also not really a choice so much as preference for bisexuals.


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## Volkodav (Jan 30, 2012)

Yago said:


> Gays have been playing along as straight for years


Saying "yeah, chicks are fuckin hot!" =/= someone choosing to be straight.
I love blue, blue is my favorite colour, but if I were in a club of people that liked brown and faced getting my fucking skull caved in if I said I liked blue and not brown, you can bet your sweet ass I'm gonna say brown is my favorite colour.
Does it make it true? No! Brown sucks and is the colour of shit, it's my least favorite colour.


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## Yago (Jan 30, 2012)

Aleu said:


> uh...dating someone isn't the same as "choosing" sexuality or "manipulating it" or whatever. It's also not really a choice so much as preference for bisexuals.



I never mentioned dating? 

Also, choosing to live a certain lifestyle, IE, sleep with men despite being a straight male, IS a choice. after some time, one could consider themselves gay because of the forced sexual lifestyle. THAT is manipulating, but it is not one's true sexuality.  It can be a choice for bisexuals. I have a friend of mine who was molested as a child and despite being bisexual, he refuses to date women. (was molested by his older sister). He basically considers himself gay. 

I'm not really saying its a choice, just that some can self-decieve themselves so it appears as they chose it, but all they have done is chosen a lifestyle and forced an opinion upon themselves.

As for Clayton, I know it isn't the same thing. But some people live that lie for long enough to truly BELIEVE they like the color brown. THAT is self-deception.


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## Volkodav (Jan 30, 2012)

Yago said:


> As for Clayton, I know it isn't the same thing. But some people live that lie for long enough to truly BELIEVE they like the color brown. THAT is self-deception.


I don't think I've ever heard of someone saying they like brown to avoid being killed/beat up/abandoned long enough to genuinely like brown and not blue at all


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## Spatel (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm not going to name names but there are a couple people on this forum that definitely strike me as homosexually-identified but bisexually-oriented (leaning straight for that matter). I had a chance to talk to someone off the site who was in this situation, and what he told me was very interesting. *He saw beauty in women, and not in men*, but considered himself gay because he simply liked being penetrated, and with women he had developed a sort of 'look, don't touch' complex.

Most bi guys that lean straight have a hard time developing long-term relationships with other men, and they prefer just having flings. He eventually held out until he found that one kind of guy that worked for him well enough to stick with it.


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## Onnes (Jan 30, 2012)

Spatel said:


> I disagree with that. It does seem like some people choose their sexual identities. Militant feminists that become lesbians--even after dating men for decades, for instance. Though you could argue that just because their sexuality 'changed' doesn't mean they chose it. Perhaps it seemed like a choice for them, when really it was a combination of environmental and emotional factors that caused them to see things differently.
> 
> Alternatively, and I'm surprised you didn't bring this up, they could be bisexuals simply choosing to identify as straight or gay at different points of their life. I could believe that; as I've done that.



You have to separate out the concept of sexual orientation identity, what people choose to express or identify as for their sexual orientation, from sexual orientation, what they actually feel. There's a serious conceptual gap between changing what you tell people and changing what you experience.


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## Volkodav (Jan 31, 2012)

Spatel said:


> *He saw beauty in women, and not in men*, but considered himself gay because he simply liked being penetrated, and with women he had developed a sort of 'look, don't touch' complex.


hahha sounds like your buddy has a botched idea of what makes someone gay/lesbian. Like those people that think having sex with a dude makes someone gay.
No idea why you'd take his idea of what's what and think it's true.


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## Spawtsie Paws (Jan 31, 2012)

I guess I find myself more attracted to who somebody rather than what there body is. So, that is what "sets my fire works off."

It is as simple as that.


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## Kitutal (Jan 31, 2012)

Reading all this about changing and choosing and liking different people in different ways, I am wondering whether there isn't actually a single thing within each of us that says we are one thing or another, or if everyone simply likes whatever it is they like and has to try to fit that into pre-defined groups.
Look at food, for example, the whole complex array of different things people like, orders they would each put their preferences in, people change what foods they like too, people can get used to things they weren't sure on at first, and so on. What if sexual orientation isn't a single fixed point that can be either one thing or another, like our height or eye colour or whatever, what if it is a whole complex interlinked part of our persinality and preferences for friends and thigns we enjoy doing and everything else. And I'm sure this only half makes sense because I'm rushing and going to be late.


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## Volkodav (Jan 31, 2012)

Kitutal said:


> Reading all this about changing and choosing and liking different people in different ways, I am wondering whether there isn't actually a single thing within each of us that says we are one thing or another, or if everyone simply likes whatever it is they like and has to try to fit that into pre-defined groups.
> Look at food, for example, the whole complex array of different things people like, orders they would each put their preferences in, people change what foods they like too, people can get used to things they weren't sure on at first, and so on. What if sexual orientation isn't a single fixed point that can be either one thing or another, like our height or eye colour or whatever, what if it is a whole complex interlinked part of our persinality and preferences for friends and thigns we enjoy doing and everything else. And I'm sure this only half makes sense because I'm rushing and going to be late.


Homosexuality/bisexuality/trans* is not like ordering your regular order at McDonalds and then deciding you want mustard on your burger and then hey! that's good! I want this from now on!
It has to do with brain chemistry. Homosexual males do not have the same brain chemistry as straight males, their brain chemistry is more similar to females.


_"The brains of straight men and of gay women share certain common features: both are slightly asymmetric, with the right hemisphere larger than the left [...] On the other hand, the brains of gay men and straight women are both symmetrical.
[...]The region of the brain involved in emotional learning and in activating the fight-or-flight response. They noted strong similarities between gay men and straight women, and lesbians and straight men.
[...] Researchers from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm first performed magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) on 90 participants -- 25 heterosexual men and an equal number of heterosexual women, plus 20 homosexual men and 20 homosexual women. 
The right hemispheres of straight men and gay women were found to be bigger than the left, while the respective volume of these two cerebral hemispheres were about the same in gay men and straight women.

Fifty of the original participants also underwent positron emission tomography (PET) measurements of blood flow to the brain, designed to analyze connections between the right and left amygdalas. PET scans were performed both while the participants were resting and while they were smelling unscented air. Here again, lesbians appeared to react more like straight men, while gay men were more like straight women.
According to the authors, fight-or-flight reactions -- controlled in part by the amygdala -- are more common in men than in women.
The differences, which were not related to sexual attraction, could be due to environmental effects, genetics or the influence of sex hormones, the study authors stated."_

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...16/gay-men-straight-women-have-similar-brains

If you still believe that people can choose one day to fuck with those parts of their brains then.. heh.. I got nothin more to say to you


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## Cain (Jan 31, 2012)

Spatel said:


> I'm not going to name names but there are a couple people on this forum that definitely strike me as homosexually-identified but bisexually-oriented (leaning straight for that matter). I had a chance to talk to someone off the site who was in this situation, and what he told me was very interesting. *He saw beauty in women, and not in men*, but considered himself gay because he simply liked being penetrated, and with women he had developed a sort of 'look, don't touch' complex.
> 
> Most bi guys that lean straight have a hard time developing long-term relationships with other men, and they prefer just having flings. He eventually held out until he found that one kind of guy that worked for him well enough to stick with it.


Being sodomised =/= Gay.
Women are able to wear strap-ons, you do realise?


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## Spatel (Jan 31, 2012)

Jagged Edge said:


> Being sodomised =/= Gay.
> Women are able to wear strap-ons, you do realise?



No I didn't realize this. Thanks for pointing it out. Despite getting pegged by my girlfriend numerous times, I guess I'm just fucking retarded or something. :V



Clayton said:


> hahha sounds like your buddy has a botched idea  of what makes someone gay/lesbian. Like those people that think having  sex with a dude makes someone gay.
> No idea why you'd take his idea of what's what and think it's true.


I've noticed on this forum it is nearly impossible to post someone else's opinion without receiving responses as if it's your own. I think my friend is basically a deluded straight man. He happened to find the one kind of guy that works for him, and he lives by the stupid 'one-drop' rule. That doesn't make him gay. 

I only brought this up because this isn't an isolated case. I've seen a few of these.


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## israfur (Jan 31, 2012)

You don't need to penetrate someone to molest them.. D:
@OP: As a Christian it pains me to be to be lumped in with a bunch of haters, but I can see that you weren't trying to be rude about it. It took quite a few years for me to realize my transgender personality and it's helped me become a more accepting and forgiving person than before, while still attending church on Sundays. Jesus was a hippie who preached about accepting others, if he hated people like me he wouldn't have made me into his image in the first place.


My sexual preferences? I think can call myself pansexual, it sounds a lot more accurate than the other sexual preferences when applied to me.
It doesn't matter to me if the person is a guy, girl, trans, genderqueer, fat, skinny, rich, broke, blackwhitepuertoricanasianindian ect -as long as they're not too young or old I'm cool with them haha.


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## Ozriel (Jan 31, 2012)

Jagged Edge said:


> Being sodomised =/= Gay.
> Women are able to wear strap-ons, you do realise?



A man who sleeps around with other men and doesn't identify with gay is called "Down low". :V
The term is most commonly used amongst black men. :V
[yt]fXdu3pwT4ps&ob=av2e[/yt]


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## Kitutal (Jan 31, 2012)

And this is my problem with the whole sexual identity label, as much as I like being able to call myself gay, to feel one of a group, ultimately different people like different things, some men get sexual pleasure and leave it at that, others are after a romantic relationship instead, or as well, and of course they are different, yet they are given the choice either of labeling themselves either the same as opposites, nothing else.
As I said once on another forum, sexual pleasure is, by its very nature, pleasant, wherever it comes from.


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## Volkodav (Jan 31, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> A man who sleeps around with other men and doesn't identify with gay is called "Down low". :V
> The term is most commonly used amongst black men. :V
> [yt]fXdu3pwT4ps&ob=av2e[/yt]



Yup.
Pac is doing a cool comic about two down-low guys


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## Spatel (Jan 31, 2012)

Clayton said:


> Yup.
> Pac is doing a cool comic about two down-low guys



link?


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## Cain (Jan 31, 2012)

Spatel said:


> No I didn't realize this. Thanks for pointing it out. Despite getting pegged by my girlfriend numerous times, I guess I'm just fucking retarded or something. :V
> 
> 
> I've noticed on this forum it is nearly impossible to post someone else's opinion without receiving responses as if it's your own. I think my friend is basically a deluded straight man. He happened to find the one kind of guy that works for him, and he lives by the stupid 'one-drop' rule. That doesn't make him gay.
> ...


Shout this into your friend's face, because he's the retarded moron.


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## Yago (Jan 31, 2012)

This thread's quite interesting.

Sexualities always an interesting topic.


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## Volkodav (Jan 31, 2012)

Spatel said:


> link?



http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5016329
if youre looking for porn youre gonna be disappointed though


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## Gucci Mane (Feb 1, 2012)

how am i supposed to love jesus if not in a gay way


stick that in your pipe and smoke it, theologians


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## Cain (Feb 1, 2012)

Gucci Mane said:


> how am i supposed to love jesus if not in a gay way
> 
> 
> stick that in your pipe and smoke it, theologians


What is it with you and pointless, off-topic, and generally mindless posts?


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## CaptainCool (Feb 1, 2012)

Gucci Mane said:


> how am i supposed to love jesus if not in a gay way
> 
> 
> stick that in your pipe and smoke it, theologians



how about this one:
god loves everyone. he heals your wounds and cures cancer patients. but amputees? fuck those guys! :V he never heals those!
and if being gay is wrong, bad and sometimes even considered a mental disease, why doesnt he just cure gays?


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## Volkodav (Feb 1, 2012)

God is too busy helping liars win elections and horrible singers win competitions to help someone with a serious illness or someone wanting to kill themselves

What kind of a god lets this happen lmfao
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012...otos-allegedly-showing-students-bound-gagged/


edit nvm i forgot thats what the priests do


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