# Bad Art?



## Apollyon13 (Mar 14, 2013)

I want to start drawing. Problem is I suck at it.(2.5/10) I figure that the best way to learn somethings is to trace to try to get a feel for how to do certain things. The issue comes when I want to post them. I don't want to post traced art.(especially bad traced art) I do want to post pics to show what little progress I have/will make. What is you guys views on tracers or just bad art in general?

p.s. I'm aware "bad" is more perspective, but I'm sure there are pics out there that everyone would agree are just bad.


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## Ansitru (Mar 14, 2013)

My personal opinion on tracing is that it's lazy and teaches you nothing, whilst still making you waste your time.


If you want to get started with art, then get started and draw from scratch. Draw what you see or draw what you are thinking about.
Look up stock-images that are free to use and reference them. Just don't trace. Especially since most likely you are using art or pictures that aren't yours to use in the first place and would get you some pretty pissed off artists if they did find out you traced their original work.


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## Kalmor (Mar 14, 2013)

From what I've heard, tracing art is generally a bad idea. You aren't really learning anything except for how to copy, and while copying you are also tracing the artist's own flaws in their work that you probably don't notice. Try drawing from life, set up a few objects on a table and draw what you see. I'm not an artist so Arshes or any of the other resident artists can correct me on this.

Also, it's hard to judge where you're at right now since you haven't posted any of your work.


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## Schwimmwagen (Mar 14, 2013)

http://ctrlpaint.com/library/

^ I like to use this site for drawing advice. It also gave me a lot of answers to my questions, both technical and just general stuff. Plus it's got some recommendations for books for you to get your hands on.

You're gonna get tired of hearing this bit - Start yourself at the basics, by which I mean, basic shapes. Not squares or triangles or circles, but cubes, pyramids, spheres, and cylinders! And then move on to drawing boring objects. There's some key fundamentals right there that you don't wanna miss, you're going to need them before you start drawing people, animals, animal people, dragons, space marines, whatever.


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## Krieger (Mar 14, 2013)

I don't know if it'll work for you, but when I draw I like to analyze my 'subject'. I will look at it not only from different perspectives and angles, but also other people's creative outlooks and even real pictures too. By doing this, you get a nice appreciation for whatever it is you are trying to draw.
It may be a lengthy process, but it works for me.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Mar 14, 2013)

Tracing is a bad idea, but I don't think sort of copying isn't bad if you do it for yourself only, or claim no kudos in the picture other than your effort. What I did when I started drawing, I took a pic I quite liked, put it on my tiny phone's screen and took an A4 paper and drew it, while thinking constantly: "Why has this artist put this line here, this is a simple way to present something, and good" or "Wow, I wouldn't ever have thought of drawing this bit, but with it, it looks so much better." Basically analyzing everything.
After you feel a bit better about your skills, just start drawing whatever comes to our mind. No matter how silly it is. Doodle a lot. Doodles are great practice.
That said, I'm bored of traditional. I want to learn digital.


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## Ozriel (Mar 14, 2013)

Doodle, practice, but do not trace. For the love of Google, do not trace.


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## Teal (Mar 14, 2013)

DO NOT POST TRACED THINGS. It'll just make everyone hate you.

I recomend watching some streams so you can see how others draw.


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## MicheleFancy (Mar 14, 2013)

Do not trace, especially other artists work.  Like someone else said up there you will pick up their bad habits.
Even tracing photos is a bad idea.  You won't get an understanding of the form and how it works because you'll just be seeing everything in lines and not the bigger picture.

Sucking is the first step on the road to being awesome.
I suggest starting up a sketch journal or blog somewhere to post up all the things you've practiced and ask for help or critique.
Conceptart.org is a great place for that and I've seen very, very beginner artists flourish there because of their sketch journal section.  Plus, you'll have crazy amazing professionals helping you out, for free, every step of the way.

I know everyone wants to jump the gun and create cool pieces right off the bat.  You can still do that!  Practice some stuff, then draw a piece that reflects what you've learned and shows progress.  Even showing your practice sketches of shapes, forms and shading will show progress to people watching you.  Just don't trace or even copy other's artwork.  You'll be a better artist for it in the long run.


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## Apollyon13 (Mar 14, 2013)

Message received. So, I need to start with the basic and work my way up. No tracing. Sounds like a battle plan. I do plan on going to digital eventually. Well I wanted to sketch then scan. I'm not sure if thats how people usually do it. Do digital artists usually start with drawing then go digital?

Thanks for the links guys. I will def check them out.

(I do mean furry art btw )


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## Dreaming (Mar 14, 2013)

Most of us would've sucked back when we were all new to drawing, I would guess. Everyone will tell you this but the key is constant practice, and acknowledging the failure. If you consistently tell yourself that you suck, you'll push yourself to improve

Developing and working on your own styles rather than copying other styles works too. Also, it really helps to start off with a toony style and avoid detail in the artwork, build it up from there


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## MicheleFancy (Mar 14, 2013)

Apollyon13 said:


> Do digital artists usually start with drawing then go digital?



I know some artists do that.  Sometimes I do as well, but I mostly stick with 100% traditional or 100% digital.
It's all about what makes you more comfortable.

Learning how to draw with a pencil or pen first in the real world might be a good idea, though, if that's what you mean.  Especially if you don't have a tablet.  Getting perfect form with a mouse can be tough and I admire people who only work with them digitally.


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## Teal (Mar 14, 2013)

Start with a pencil. I've found it's very easy to get stuck using short cuts that'll hurt in the long run if you start with digital.


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## Zydala (Mar 14, 2013)

not gonna put the image in the thread since I don't want it to seem reaction-gif-y but

http://media.konigi.com/snaps/jakewisdom.png

Anyway this thread has had some good advice so far. Check out Palette Town if you want some threads with good advice/books/starting points, and post your stuff over there for crit if you ever want any. I'm a regular over there (haha well of course) so I'd always be happy to give out advice. Hope to see you over there!


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## Catilda Lily (Mar 14, 2013)

Just keep practicing.


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## Ryuu (Mar 14, 2013)

Practice , and i would stray from tracing.


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## Aubreys_Anthro_Ego (Mar 14, 2013)

You'll improve more by doodling and drawing sucky art than by tracing. Plus since it's traced, you don't have copyright over it which you automatically claim when you post your stuff to DA, FA, or sites like that. Copyright infringement doesn't go down well when it comes to artists. On DA, everyone will get on your ass faster than a motherfucker when they find out, not that I've done it. Also, it sucks when you're browsing for fanart but just keep seeing the same old traces. *cough* Sly Cooper fandom *cough*


Here's the advice of a mediocre artist: 
1. Doodle, draw your bad stuff, and draw bad stuff that you were trying your hardest to make into good stuff. 
2. Then after that, go colorful tutorial hunting to pick up techniques, how proportions work, or whatever you want to know or looks cool.
3. Apply what you learned from the tutorials.
4. Draw stuff. This time they probably won't look as bad as before.
5. Moar tutorial hunting! 
6. See 4.
7. Book hunting! 
8. See 4.
9. Realize how fucking awesome referencing is.
10. Keep on havin' fun my man. You get the point.


One more thing though,- and people mess this up a lot - referencing does NOT mean copying! Referencing does not involve eye-oggling a picture to try to get each and every line the same. Referencing is basically going "I wonder what a zebra's ears look like," looking up a bunch of photos of zebras, and then getting a general idea.


Sorry, I just had to mention this. It's a pet peeve of mine. 
One moooooore thing: Always remember that art is not srs bsns.


Dreaming said:


> If you consistently tell yourself that you suck, you'll push yourself to improve.


I used to do that. It made me depressed and I just stopped drawing all together. :/ At least people with confidence and that like their art draw a lot.


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## TheGr8MC (Mar 15, 2013)

A helpful hint I can give is to keep and archive everything you've ever drawn in order if possible.  I have almost every single sketch, doodle and scribble, even doodles I drew on my school notes during class, almost everything I've ever drawn since middle school pasted on my wall in chronological order.  Though I don't recommend pasting doodles on your walls to the point that you can no longer see the wall, like my room.  It's a great way to compare your work and see how you've improved as well as where you need improvement.  Also, join art websites or clubs.  They usually are nice about constructive criticism.


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## GhostWolf (Mar 16, 2013)

Hey I fully admit I can't draw, hey I peaked in the 4th Grade and just plain hasn't gotten any better. I admit on a few furry sites I have seen some terrible art.


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## Stratelier (Mar 16, 2013)

To draw good art you need to be able to:

1 - Draw something as you see it.  This is a matter of discipline and practice, and the reason art classes will have you primarily sitting down in front of still-life arrangements and drawing that down to every detail you can think of.  For the love of the Internet please do not just overlay something and trace the outlines, try to reproduce the same result freehand.  You'll do better that way because in order to reproduce something freehand you have to understand it, which leads into....
2 - Analyze the shapes of a subject to understand how to re-create it from memory.  This you can NOT learn from direct observation (and even less, tracing)
3 - And somewhere along the way you have to put 1 and 2 together and get 4.

In the case of my personal experience, it really wasn't until the PSX era when I really started to learn that last point.  Specifically, _Spyro the Dragon_ with its (relatively) simple polygonal models but fluid model animation.  Fresh out of HS I could draw something from observation fine but when trying to draw something from mind alone it would come out looking awful.  These days?  Having a reference barely makes a difference at all.


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## Aubreys_Anthro_Ego (Mar 16, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> In the case of my personal experience, it really wasn't until the PSX era when I really started to learn that last point.  Specifically, _Spyro the Dragon_ with its (relatively) simple polygonal models but fluid model animation.  Fresh out of HS I could draw something from observation fine but when trying to draw something from mind alone it would come out looking awful.  These days?  Having a reference barely makes a difference at all.


So when you played Spyro the Dragon, something just clicked and you didn't have to rely on references anymore?


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## Stratelier (Mar 16, 2013)

Slowly, but yes.  I think it really improved my ability to visualize things in my head.


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## Avlenna (Mar 16, 2013)

Like many others have said, draw things that you see.  Also, if you plan on drawing animals, anthros or humans try using reference images and study the skeletal and muscle structures of what you're drawing.  Make sure you know how various body parts work and such before you try to draw them (you wouldn't want to draw a person whose ankles can bend outwards at 180 degrees)  DO NOT TRACE!


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## Tigercougar (Mar 17, 2013)

Ah - I thought that copying was actually a useful tool for the beginning artist, as long as you analyzed what you were doing as you copied - basically, trying to get into the thought process of the artist you're trying to emulate. Of course it should be used purely as an educational tool and not an easy way to make work you'd then claim as your own.


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## Stratelier (Mar 17, 2013)

Tigercougar said:


> Ah - I thought that copying was actually a useful tool for the beginning artist, as long as you *analyzed what you were doing* as you copied - basically, trying to get into the thought process of the artist you're trying to emulate. Of course it should be used purely as an educational tool and not an easy way to make work you'd then claim as your own.



Totally agree on that part.  Compare a True/False question with a slightly expanded True/False/Why question.  The first oney ou can simply randomly pick one and have a 50-50 chance of being right.  The second one, you have to understand the choices because you're asked to not only provide an answer, but _back it up_.


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## Dokid (Mar 17, 2013)

Lots of observational drawings. I don't mean just drawing still life pictures all day everyday, but try some live people drawings, angle drawings, etc. Also do studies on animals. If you have a dog then draw your dog/fish/cat/etc.

Tracing never really helps you. It only makes you feel like you did something when really, you just followed lines. You didn't really understand why those lines were there.


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## Aetius (Mar 18, 2013)

Apollyon13 said:


> I figure that the best way to learn somethings is to trace to try to get a feel for how to do certain things.



That is like saying the best way to improve a countries economy is by robbing banks. Stay away from tracing.


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## Tiamat (Mar 18, 2013)

Going to request that this be moved to The Art Shack.

EDIT: Let me just add that tracing has its place in art. Like many other methods there is a right way and a wrong way to approach it. 
But if you cannot draw to begin with, you will not be able to trace either.


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## Arshes Nei (Mar 18, 2013)

http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/07/10-things-i-rememberabout-tracing.html

Also should say people should be more specific about "tracing" since copying and tracing tend to get lumped into being the same thing when they are not. 

However both practices should be done with understanding.


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## Namba (Mar 18, 2013)

Don't trace. Just don't. It's best you make your own honest mistakes than copy the fuck-ups of the original artist. Just gonna point out that perfection is a photograph, not a painting. In other words, nobody can make a perfect representation of any subject they choose to draw or paint. Another thing I've realized, even though I'm not much of an artist myself, is while I have progressed I started to notice flaws in the works of artists that previously I really admired. After a while I realized how seriously flawed their work was and lost interest (yeah, sounds a bit dickish I know), because honestly her popularity was based on a fan comic series that has been going on for God knows how long. And another thing; it's possible to not progress at all no matter how much you draw, as long as you think you're fine where you are. So just drawing isn't going to be enough if you're just doing, say, anthro wolves all the time. Sure, you can now draw a killer anthro wolf, but can you draw, say, a chair? Or a park bench? A trash can? While some subjects may seem boring by themselves, once you start drawing from life and are able to put together decent backgrounds, it makes for a much more interesting piece than a fox with his dick hanging out over a white backdrop, y'know?


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## Sanat (Mar 19, 2013)

If you trace, you will be considered the Nickelback of the art world.  It's really not respected at all, and frowned upon. And, you can get banned on these forums if you post traced work.
I've been drawing all my life (over two decades), and I'm still learning. It's a long process, but you will get the most out of it if you work hard and learn from the beginning.


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## anothersacrifice (Mar 30, 2013)

I can't comment as an artist since I can't draw a stick figure... but I can respond as someone who was raised by professional artists that paid the bills with their work. Start with basic things. Draw your cereal bowl from breakfast, draw your cell phone, draw your pet goldfish... Get familiar with the way the pencil (or whatever medium you use) works for you and against you. Remember that the Sistine Chapel was not Michelangelo's first paint job. We all have to start somewhere.


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