# Over Nomalization of the Fandom?



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 19, 2013)

EDIT: Normalization*  (Left the r out.  Damn typos.)
This journal is one that I felt was a very potent warning to those who are afraid to allow the various expressions of furry interest to blossom.  

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4550099/

TL;DR:
Media simply states that in striving so hard to limit what we, as furries, accept within the fandom to only that which the general public will not find offensive, we kill the very spirit that drew us to it in the first place.  

You are all beautiful and your expressions of your furry sides are also beautiful.  Whatever happens, know that you will get no judgment from me for being who you are, believing what you believe.  I will defend your right to be it and believe it because it is the right thing to do.  As long as you're not hurting anyone, go for shit.  It is each person's ability to apply their own spin to a general subject that keeps it interesting.


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## Fox_720B (Apr 19, 2013)

I think that a lot of people here and elsewhere in the fandom are nervous to be associated with any element of the fandom that could make them look bad to others. So, for those who simply appreciate anthro art, being assumed to be a "sexual deviant" can cause one to bristle and perhaps vehemently fight to preserve some sense of normalcy in your corner of the fandom. And let's admit, there are a lot of factions in this fandom that are incredibly strange to the outside viewer...BDSM furries, diaper/baby furs, macros, hypers/fat fetish furs and so on would definitely be seen as strange by a very large number of people. It's understandable that someone not associated with these would desire to not be seen as associated with these. 

Yet sometimes people take it so far as to view anyone who's into anything not considered mainstream or normal to be idiots at best or insane at worst. Our recent discussion here regarding spirit animals illustrates this. Lots of religious and spiritual beliefs incorporate spirit animals but I don't see people claiming that someone is insane for having native american or hindu spiritual beliefs. But somehow the act of being a furrry and believing in spirit animals makes one insane. I find it to be an unfair judgement.

On the other hand there's been a strong anti-hugbox mentality that has developed because many people here and in other places on the net feel that tolerating any kind of deviancy from the norm is simply encouraging unhealthy behavior. In some cases this might be true, such as in the Hypnolover case where he'd begun to eat dog food. That's just unhealthy and strange...sure. But other behaviors and beliefs can often be far more benign than people allow themselves to believe, and are too afraid of being judged to actually consider the possibility that individual self expression can often be healthy.


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## Rigby (Apr 19, 2013)

Wow, that was way too long and relies far too heavily on a sole piece of anecdotal evidence, but the idea is on the right track. I guess the furries had a decision to make: Either become "mainstream" and be infected with the those terrible, awful, cancerous youths who just don't get what made being a furry special or have us "sick fucks" who like diapers and bondage and then have the mainstream frown at you intensely for being even remotely associated with them.



Fox_720B said:


> Lots of religious and spiritual beliefs  incorporate spirit animals but I don't see people claiming that someone  is insane for having native american or hindu spiritual beliefs. But  somehow the act of being a furrry and believing in spirit animals makes  one insane. I find it to be an unfair judgement.



I really, really don't want to drag that into here too, but it's not  insane, just dumb. It feels like appropriation of Native American  culture as a novelty for modern Americans to me (I can't comment on  other nationalities and spirit animals though).


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## Brazen (Apr 19, 2013)

Yes, the shock and horror of not having fetish events at furry conventions. The lamentable state of the fandom when people don't act as if being a deviant is something worthy of celebration in itself.

Someone point that man to Craigslist if he wants to organise cross-dressing orgies.


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## Troj (Apr 19, 2013)

This is a tricky matter.

Certainly, you can't have all of your cake AND eat it too. If you want to be tolerated, liked, and/or accepted, you usually have to compromise with people and/or the outside world to an extent.

Many furries don't like that many people associate the furry culture with things like sexual perversion, general creepiness, drama queening, bestiality, and/or pedophilia. Many furries rightly and understandably resent the fact that furrydom is seen as the place where all the creepers and rejects go, after they've been booted from everywhere else.

But, it's also understandable to not want your unique, expressive, fun culture to become homogenized, domesticated, or dumbed down. 

This is why a lot of people say they preferred Times Square back in the "Old Days."

I've heard people say the same about Gay Culture, too--that gays are becoming like all of the other hetero yuppie suburbanites, and are losing their cool, campy, creative, kinky edge. 

I'd say, because furry has had such a catastrophically bad rep in the past, it's good that people like Uncle Kage and the like are "policing" the fandom and making it very clear that the culture has a whole doesn't endorse or encourage creepy-ass shit. Because Joe Public doesn't always understand the distinction between ENCOURAGING something, and just ALLOWING it, sometimes the Kages of the world have to be extra strict, to avoid all confusion and controversy.

Well, and there are some behaviors which should never be applauded or tolerated--especially in the public sphere--because they're just plain unethical, harmful, or obnoxious. Call me judgmental, but I think someone who puts dirty diapers in the microwave and then wears them should _always_ raise eyebrows when they choose to share that in public. There do need to be social boundaries and social standards. 

But, there may come a time when we'll have to make some corrections in the _other_ direction, in order to retain what makes the culture unique and fun. I certainly don't want Furry to become so homogenized that it ceases to mean or signify anything.

I hope that as Furry matures and grows over time, it becomes better at presenting a general palatable, acceptable public face that people come to recognize and accept, while allowing quirky subcultures within the larger furry culture to still exist and thrive.


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## Rigby (Apr 19, 2013)

Troj said:


> But, there may come a time when we'll have to make some corrections in the _other_  direction, in order to retain what makes the culture unique and fun. I  certainly don't want Furry to become so homogenized that it ceases to  mean or signify anything.



I agree with you completely, but a couple minor issues with this. 1.  For "Furry" to cease meaning anything, it has to clearly mean something  first. "Furry" has  always been too loose to have any real meaning as a term. Go to a  non-furry source for a definition, like Urban Dictionary; it's a  confused mess of "maybe this is a furry, maybe this is instead." The top  definition, the one that nearly 5000 people support, even starts by saying  there is no single definition! (UD definitions #2 and 3 agree with this one, #4 and 5 are the painfully apologetic "it's just a hobby!" ones we all know, but much less popular)

It's hard for a meaningless word to lose its meaning.

2. When it comes to how the word and fandom are defined in the future, who is going to have more power? The shrinking group of people who were a furry back then and want to steer it into something slightly less mainstream or the growing group of new furries who come from the mainstream you're trying to avoid? The second group, in theory, will have more power because there's more of them and they probably don't care or don't want to "return" to that.

I could care less personally since I'm part of the furries that have been systematically rejected by the fandom, and furmeets just sound dreadful in general.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Apr 19, 2013)

How dare a fur have standards resembling those of teh ebil hyoominz


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## Grimfang (Apr 19, 2013)

Honestly, I just don't care about the public perception of furries. So I guess I'm kind of with you, OP. On the other hand, if you do go out and do crazy things, you might even experience a backlash from furries themselves, so there is that. Maybe it's not what it used to be. I have no idea what a con would've been like many years ago. I went to my first (and only so far) con in 2009, and it was a very wild experience. I blew my inhibitions away more than I intended to with alcohol, and did things in front of witnesses... I blacked out. I'm sure other people remember though. I've just heard the stories. So I guess I'm on the side of being pretty wild, although it was behind closed doors.

In any case, I just couldn't be bothered with how others influence the public perception of furries. A lot of furries like to rage about that stuff, but I just think people should have a good time. It's not that I have no respect for common decency or public appearance, I just don't care what other people do.

At the same time, maybe it's good that (as Rigby said) there are people like Uncle Kage who work to provide a more positive view of the fandom. I.. just don't care though. Maybe it's because I don't advertise being a furry, and outisde of friends/family, no one would have any idea that I was one.


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## benignBiotic (Apr 19, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> Media simply states that in striving so hard to limit what we, as furries, accept within the fandom to only that which the general public will not find offensive, we kill the very spirit that drew us to it in the first place.
> 
> You are all beautiful and your expressions of your furry sides are also  beautiful.  Whatever happens, know that you will get no judgment from me  for being who you are, believing what you believe.  I will defend your  right to be it and believe it because it is the right thing to do.  As  long as you're not hurting anyone, go for shit.  It is each person's  ability to apply their own spin to a general subject that keeps it  interesting.


I was drawn to the furry fandom because I like anthropomorphic animals and wanted to talk with others about the matter :-I

But I'm glad I can continue to not care about your judgement of me.


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## Kalmor (Apr 19, 2013)

Rigby said:


> I could care less personally since I'm part of the furries that have been systematically rejected by the fandom, and furmeets just sound dreadful in general.


You _couldn't_ care less. _Couldn't._

Anyway, I tend to agree with Troj. It's better for the furry fandom to show its best face to the media.


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## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

I just don't like it how some people want to turn the furry fandom into their personal fetish fest, for all the world to see. Keep it in the bedroom please. The journal depressed me. Please tell me not all furries at cons share this outlook, wanting the sexual stuff to be in your face and "fuck everyone, I'm a furry." When did furry become a splinter radical "LGBT" group (I use quotes because I don't like associating fursecution with actual abuses faced by LGBT people)? If people want to make this into some sort of kink show party, that's fine, I just won't hang out with them and instead talk to artists, suiters, and writers to get some tips on, well art and performance. And to be a goofball maybe. But 6 nippled suits? What the hell does that have to do with enjoying anthropomorphic animals, besides the superficial anatomy of such animals? What does likening dirty diapers and wearing them in public have to do with furry? I don't think the fandom is changing, I think the fandom is healing. 

I'm in no way being a prude. If you like the kinky stuff, good for you, wave your freak flag. BUT...here's the catch. There's a time and a place for freak flag waving, and public places, or general access websites ain't it. I follow the belief that sexual stuff is private, as, well, it's an intimate thing. And maybe you have a little group (or big) that likes to share some, well, weird porn. Ok. But do you really think it is necessary to act out the fetishes in your porn in public settings? And I'm not talking about Leather Pride fests or the like. I'm talking about general furry conventions, where non-furries may be walking around to see what the fandom is like. I don't think people should have to be turned away as a result of extremely immature behavior on the part of some of the attendees.

It's stuff like this that makes me wary about talking about being a  furry. I shouldn't have to treat the fandom as such, but when you have  so many people deciding, "oh, it's my special kink, wanna see?" it makes  me uncomfortable. And I don't want to strain the relationship with my  parents, or alienate myself from the rest of society. It makes me wary  of going to cons. I don't want this fandom to become a breeding ground for the furry version of otakus, as in, "I'm currently married to my waifu, Lola Bunny." 

Lastly, let me say something for everyone to hear: being gay and being a pervert are *NOT*, I repeat *NOT*, the same thing. So for god's sake furries, stop using LGBT labels as an excuse to be perverted. It really hurts the image of LGBT people who are facing real discrimination out there. Furry isn't supposed to be the letter F for the LGBT spectrum. You can make it that way if you want, but it's not that in general.


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## Heliophobic (Apr 19, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> Media simply states that in striving so hard to limit what we, as furries, accept within the fandom to only that which the general public will not find offensive, we kill the very spirit that drew us to it in the first place.




The general public finds anthropomorphic creatures offensive?

Gosh. Well this is news to me. It makes you wonder why Disney cartoons got so much positive recognition.


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## Mentova (Apr 19, 2013)

That journal was so dumb I had to stop reading about 2/3s into it.

It just sounded like someone complaining because the fandom is getting bigger and expanding, and isn't an exclusive fetish club anymore. I think this is a _good_ thing. Its nice to be able to tell people that one of your hobbies is furry and not have them assume that you're a massive creepy pervert. Its nice going to conventions and checking out panels and the dealers den to buy cool comics and art without some creepy fucks running around in the creepy 6 nippled fursuit like in that journal. And its nice being able to go to furry events without friends and family thinking you are going to an animal themed orgy.

Maybes its just me, and what I want, but I welcome the fandom becoming more mainstream. Esepcially if it gets the creepy fucks who make things awkward for everyone to back off to their basements.

Disclaimer: I do not have an issue with people having weirdo fetishes. We all have at least something out of the ordinary. But there is a difference between enjoying something in private and parading your fetishes like an identity.


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## Fox_720B (Apr 19, 2013)

I agree with Mentova. I personally do want to see the fandom go a bit more mainstream and I do want us to put our best face forward in public settings. For me it's kind of like...even though there are fetish communities that provide a safe haven for people to engage in their fetish without judgement, doing it in a public place like the mall would rightfully be considered inappropriate. There is a time and a place. 

Where people here and elsewhere become frustrated is when they _don't_ view being furry as a fetish, or if they do, they prefer to keep that private or in a safe place...and then they see other furs waving the fetish banner publicly and giving the "fandom" a negative public perception. I'm all for a more positive public perception and being mindful of our public behavior can only assist with that.

_*However*_,

It seems to me that OP was merely pointing out that one shouldn't let the popular opinion prevent you from feeling okay to be your own unique kind of fur. Be yourself as long as you're not hurting yourself or someone else. And my chiming in with my point regarding religious furs backs up that particular point. I see a lot of people here often try to nail down exactly what is and isn't "insane" and a lot of things lumped into the insane category are highly subjective and often benign issues that harm no one at all. I'm all for telling someone when they're bringing harm unto themselves or others, but not for telling someone they're an idiot for having different beliefs.


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 19, 2013)

Saliva said:


> The general public finds anthropomorphic creatures offensive?
> 
> Gosh. Well this is news to me. It makes you wonder why Disney cartoons got so much positive recognition.



Actually, Saliva, that's not at all what I said.  I said limiting our expression of what it means to be a furry to only what the general public finds acceptable.  



Mentova said:


> That journal was so dumb I had to stop reading about 2/3s into it.
> 
> It just sounded like someone complaining because the fandom is getting bigger and expanding, and isn't an exclusive fetish club anymore. I think this is a _good_ thing. Its nice to be able to tell people that one of your hobbies is furry and not have them assume that you're a massive creepy pervert. Its nice going to conventions and checking out panels and the dealers den to buy cool comics and art without some creepy fucks running around in the creepy 6 nippled fursuit like in that journal. And its nice being able to go to furry events without friends and family thinking you are going to an animal themed orgy.



The end of the journal was the most important part.  The beginning was simply an explanation of what cons _were_ not what they _should_ be.  It is customary in argumentative writing to explore the extremes before settling on a conclusion.  



benignBiotic said:


> I was drawn to the furry fandom because I like anthropomorphic animals and wanted to talk with others about the matter :-I
> 
> But I'm glad I can continue to not care about your judgement of me.



I'm sorry to know that you feel as though you are being personally judged for your opinions.  I don't recall making this personal at any point.

Having answered all of that:
Let me just say that Media's journal was not advocating the continuation of public sex and open display of fetishes at cons.  If you were to read it through to the end you would discover his true intention: to suggest to those in the fandom that we should not ostracize everyone who isn't simply into anthro art and fur suiting.  The mere mention of anything other than those two things wins people the "freak" label so easily these days.  Just to make things clear, I am not a fetishist or a sexual deviant.  I simply don't see the point in chasing out anyone who is different in any way.  I thought I had made it quite clear in my original post that I was cool with everything as long as no one is being hurt by it.  I understand that there is a fear of social damage as well but I think we could be a little more mature about our criteria for labeling something as such.  If someone is a diaper fur, they're not exactly going to invoke lynch mobs on the same level as someone who has public sex.  

I posited this idea as a way of drawing attention to the fact that there is a very strong effort to sterilize the fandom going on.  Quite honestly, a lot of what I've seen has made me feel as though I'm some kind of "sexual deviant" simply for purring at my partner when I'm happy.  It's gone overboard, ladies and gents.  I agree that it is good to show a good face to the public but you don't have to approach everything with such extreme apprehension.  Chill out, guys.  This is supposed to be fun.

TL;DR: I like tacos.  :V


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## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

We don't care what you do in private, do what you want, as long as it isn't illegal or doesn't hurt anyone. We just don't like seeing overt sexuality in public. This doesn't apply to just furry. These are the standards we hold for all of society: gay or straight, male or female, furry or Trekkie, and especially our elected officials.

Still, I do agree that the fandom is getting a little cliquey. Furries only talking to people who share their fursona species, all the popufur drama, and all the art snobbery...it's getting old. And I also agree we shouldn't really be trying to throw people out based on what they do in private. That's a pretty douchey thing to do. In public though? If they claim they're doing stuff because that's what furry is about, and end up harming other people because of it (reputation with friends and family, job, etc), then we _should_ ostracize that individual, because they are being immature and are breaking universal social norms. But that doesn't include people who do these things in private, or in less public areas. Hell, furmeets are basically private events. Do what you want there, too. It's your home.

As long as your actions don't harm anyone else (including their reputation), as long as you aren't severely harming yourself and are a productive member of society, what you do is none of our concern. But sometimes people have to step in, either to help you get back on the right track, or to, unfortunately at times, tell you to go somewhere else. Don't be an enabler.


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 19, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> We don't care what you do in private, do what you want, as long as it isn't illegal or doesn't hurt anyone. We just don't like seeing overt sexuality in public. This doesn't apply to just furry. These are the standards we hold for all of society: gay or straight, male or female, furry or Trekkie, and especially our elected officials.



LOL!  Oh the things our elected officials have in their closets.  >:V


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## TigerBeacon (Apr 19, 2013)

I think the essential spirit of being in the 'furry' group is acceptance of who you are and what others are, which was stronger back then because everyone outside the fandom considered everyone in it as 'freaks' and ostracized them at every mention. I know- I've run around many parts of DA and there's always one person sharing some grievance or another about some furry asshole doing some weird jackshit on their table or being entirely insufferable, adding to the bad rap people involved in it have on top of the sexual promiscuity. 

What people like Media fail to understand is that its not the deliberate disregard of social norms that somehow 'defines' furries. The basic idea of acceptance is still there, if not a little washed now that other people are now deciding to be part of the fandom without having to feel judged on it, and that includes a new and open mentality that isn't pidgenholed into the 'we're furries because we love defining our cause by breaking social acceptance' excuse. Its that kind of thing that strengthens the comraderie through alienating the fandom and the people who are a part of it.


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## Shay Feral (Apr 19, 2013)

They're worried that with furry becoming mainstream, it'll take away that unique spice that furries have that makes furry fun. And it's all because the growing furry community wants to be cast in a positive light and become "normal", in other words: boring.

Section off a small corner for the kids and family, leave the rest be.


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## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> They're worried that with furry becoming mainstream, it'll take away that unique spice that furries have that makes furry fun. And it's all because the growing furry community wants to be cast in a positive light and become "normal", in other words: boring.
> 
> Section off a small corner for the kids and family, leave the rest be.



It's not going to be boring. You have a lot of talented artists out there...unless you don't care about the art? 

You want 6-nippled fursuits walking around (well, ok, as a joke, that would be kinda funny, but as a sexual thing, it's weird), making everyone who doesn't see furry as some spiritual sexuality (I don't see an F in LGBT. Do you?) really, really uncomfortable? I don't want to have to keep distancing myself from the fandom because some furries agree with ED that the furry fandom is a place for fetishes. And ED is a satirical site! Don't become the satire!


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## Heliophobic (Apr 19, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> They're worried that with furry becoming mainstream, it'll take away that unique spice that furries have that makes furry fun. And it's all because the growing furry community wants to be cast in a positive light and become "normal", in other words: boring.



But it's not binary. Quit implying that. We can stop being sick fucks and still be interesting. We're a fandom based on talking animal people, for fuck's sake.


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## Judge Spear (Apr 19, 2013)

I...personally don't care too much about the state of the fandom, whatever that means. If I cared about the state of the WipEout, shmup, anime, or Sonic fandoms, I think I'd look ridiculous.

It REALLY doesn't seem like something that needs to be that deep to me.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Apr 19, 2013)

Am I a sick fuck? http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10361552/


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## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Am I a sick fuck? http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10361552/



Not enough dicknipples :V


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## Shay Feral (Apr 19, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> It's not going to be boring. You have a lot of talented artists out there...unless you don't care about the art?
> 
> You want 6-nippled fursuits walking around (well, ok, as a joke, that would be kinda funny, but as a sexual thing, it's weird), making everyone who doesn't see furry as some spiritual sexuality (I don't see an F in LGBT. Do you?) really, really uncomfortable? I don't want to have to keep distancing myself from the fandom because some furries agree with ED that the furry fandom is a place for fetishes. And ED is a satirical site! Don't become the satire!



There is room for compromising, but those of the "normal" persuasion often never do more than just take. It's always "You've got to make me comfortable, got to make sure I am feeling secure" coming from people such as yourself. I'm not saying that you and your more cleaner interests aren't welcome, but it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to coexist with others who aren't in-tune with everything that you like and on your personal comfort level.

Refusing to have fun with life in fear of becoming satire, or being made fun of, is just cowardly.



Saliva said:


> But it's not binary. Quit implying that. We can stop being sick fucks and still be interesting. We're a fandom based on talking animal people, for fuck's sake.



It takes different strokes to turn the world, to wash out the "sick fucks" as you put it and saturate furry with strictly family friendly will ultimately drown out the excitement of being furry in time.


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## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> There is room for compromising, but those of the "normal" persuasion often never do more than just take. It's always "You've got to make me comfortable, got to make sure I am feeling secure" coming from people such as yourself. I'm not saying that you and your more cleaner interests aren't welcome, but it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to coexist with others who aren't in-tune with everything that you like and on your personal comfort level.
> 
> Refusing to have fun with life in fear of becoming satire, or being made fun of, is just cowardly.
> 
> ...



There's a difference between having fun, and making a fool out of yourself in public, making everyone else look bad. I did not say you have to be normal. And I'm not against being kinky, either. I just don't think it's right to be so perverted in public. It's immature and frankly disturbing.  Grow up.

And if this is some sort of "gay pride" thing....oh god...stop it right now. Again, there is a BIG difference between being a pervert and being gay. People who pick and choose stuff from the old testament make that connection. I don't want to see anyone else doing that. It angers me when I see people trying to pass off being perverted as their orientation.


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## Shay Feral (Apr 19, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> There's a difference between having fun, and making a fool out of yourself in public, making everyone else look bad. Grow up.



For some people, fun is making a fools of themselves. It's not your place to dictate what is and isn't fun to other people.



Marcus Stormchaser said:


> And if this is some sort of "gay  pride" thing....oh god...stop it right now. Again, there is a BIG  difference between being a pervert and being gay. People who pick and  choose stuff from the old testament make that connection. I don't want  to see anyone else doing that. It angers me when I see people trying to  pass off being perverted as their orientation.



Your attempt at a preventive strike is amusing.


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## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> For some people, fun is making a fools of themselves. It's not your place to dictate what is and isn't fun to other people.



Well, that is true, but I can dictate who I choose to associate with. And I don't want to be associated with fetishistic behavior. Ultimately, no one can force anyone to stop what they're doing (they can tell you to leave or blacklist you from cons though...).

Yes, being silly can be really fun. But there's a difference between, say, being a goofball, and wearing soiled diapers in public and refusing to bathe. Another thing that's disturbing: making rape out to be a joke. That's kinda offputting (read offensive).


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## Shay Feral (Apr 19, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> Well, that is true, but I can dictate who I choose to associate with. And I don't want to be associated with fetishistic behavior.



That is perfectly fine and acceptable


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## CannonFodder (Apr 19, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> EDIT: Normalization*  (Left the r out.  Damn typos.)
> This journal is one that I felt was a very potent warning to those who are afraid to allow the various expressions of furry interest to blossom.
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4550099/
> ...


And thus I continue to be reminded why I don't go into the Den.

So what you OP are stating is that having normal well rounded NON-freakydeaky individuals is a bad thing?  There are no words in the english dictionary for how dumb this idea is and how badly your idea would turn out; there's no words either for the amount of disappointment I have for OP right now that the sole reason why they feel this way is cause a popufur doesn't like that furries have realized to have better social skills in public settings than they used to have, so here's a image instead.


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## MicheleFancy (Apr 19, 2013)

Lol @ the LGBT community and culture not being sexual.  When's the last time you went to a Drag show?

Aside from that, I don't think the furry fandom will become less boring or lose its heart at all.  Just look at the comic book and video game world as an example.  Both are considered "mainstream" now, jokes about dudes in their moms basements aside, but they haven't lost their heart or meaning.  They've just become something more open to people who just even have a casual appreciation for them.  There are some old schoolers who still claim "YOU ARE ALL POSERS, YOU ARE RUINING THE EXPERIENCE", but they're only mad because it isn't some exclusive special club anymore.

Conventions, for anything including furry fandoms, should be able to be appreciated by everyone and not just the die hards.

I'm a little torn, because I believe policing how people enjoy themselves (so long as it doesn't harm themselves physically, emotionally, etc.. or harm others) is wrong, but at the same time there are times and places for it.  I'm all up for healthy sexual, spiritual or whatever expression, but even I know there are times and places for it.  On the main floor of a convention (not panels, those are a little different since people should KNOW that they might be going to something a little more risky or adult oriented based off the description) that is supposed to be inclusive to everyone isn't exactly the place.

(Also there are already Fetish conventions..)


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## Shay Feral (Apr 19, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> Yes, being silly can be really fun. But there's a difference between, say, being a goofball, and wearing soiled diapers in public and refusing to bathe. Another thing that's disturbing: making rape out to be a joke. That's kinda offputting (read offensive).



What is something that 9 out of 10 people enjoy?

Gangrape

Have a good night


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## Golden (Apr 19, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> There is room for compromising, but those of the "normal" persuasion often never do more than just take. It's always "You've got to make me comfortable, got to make sure I am feeling secure" coming from people such as yourself. I'm not saying that you and your more cleaner interests aren't welcome, but it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to coexist with others who aren't in-tune with everything that you like and on your personal comfort level.
> 
> Refusing to have fun with life in fear of becoming satire, or being made fun of, is just cowardly.
> 
> ...


Coexistence is fine. I don't think anyone here hates people with different fetishes. What I personally hate is when someone parades their fetishes around and creates a lifestyle out of them. 

Not everyone needs to know about your sexual preferences.


----------



## Calemeyr (Apr 19, 2013)

MicheleFancy said:


> Lol @ the LGBT community and culture not being sexual.  When's the last time you went to a Drag show?
> 
> Aside from that, I don't think the furry fandom will become less boring or lose its heart at all.  Just look at the comic book and video game world as an example.  Both are considered "mainstream" now, jokes about dudes in their moms basements aside, but they haven't lost their heart or meaning.  They've just become something more open to people who just even have a casual appreciation for them.  There are some old schoolers who still claim "YOU ARE ALL POSERS, YOU ARE RUINING THE EXPERIENCE", but they're only mad because it isn't some exclusive special club anymore.
> 
> ...



Sure there's drag shows. And there's oily, muscled men. And all other things involving messing with gender roles. I didn't mean sensual stuff, or mild sexuality. I was talking about things like nonconsentual groping, and well, ok stuff seen in the furmeets thread.
What I meant was trying to tie hardcore furry fetishes (dirty diapers, cub porn, rape glorification) as part of a larger LGBT mentality. I don't like the sound of that. I guess I was trying to say, being gay isn't a fetish. I don't know, I'm rambling.

I will say though, there's a lot more creepy fetishes on anime image boards out there, and it seems like the deepest darkest places in the furry fandom is influenced by such sites.


----------



## Heliophobic (Apr 19, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> It takes different strokes to turn the world, to wash out the "sick fucks" as you put it and saturate furry with strictly family friendly will ultimately drown out the excitement of being furry in time.



Then I suppose you and I just have two completely different reasons for being in the fandom.



> For some people, fun is making a fools of themselves. It's not your place to dictate what is and isn't fun to other people.



Nor is it _your_ place to dictate what is and isn't boring.


----------



## Judge Spear (Apr 19, 2013)

...I don't know how to respond to anything.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 19, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> ...I don't know how to respond to anything.



Yeah I tried to follow the arguments in this thread and people are basically just posting their personal views on it while quoting others so they don't feel like they're soap-boxing I guess?

Either way I'm loling at the people who basically join a fandom and then think they can dictate what the fandom is and isn't.

They're like those annoying girls who try to prove that females can play video games too by flirting with people over voice comms and insinuating that anyone who calls them a dumbass is just frustrated that they can't get laid.

Basically they're cancer.


----------



## Ranguvar (Apr 19, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> Basically they're cancer.


Don't be the disease, be the cure.


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> And thus I continue to be reminded why I don't go into the Den.
> 
> So what you OP are stating is that having normal well rounded NON-freakydeaky individuals is a bad thing?  There are no words in the english dictionary for how dumb this idea is and how badly your idea would turn out; there's no words either for the amount of disappointment I have for OP right now that the sole reason why they feel this way is cause a popufur doesn't like that furries have realized to have better social skills in public settings than they used to have, so here's a image instead.




Did you actually read OP's post all the way through or did you just make an assumption? I fall to see where she said normal people shouldn't be in the fandom. She encouraged people to be less judgemental.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 19, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> Did you actually read OP's post all the way through or did you just make an assumption? I fall to see where she said normal people shouldn't be in the fandom. She encouraged people to be less judgemental.



Cannonfodder doesn't read anything as they function as a solipsistic node in the vast expanses of the internet; surrounded and yet alone.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 19, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> Did you actually read OP's post all the way through or did you just make an assumption? I fall to see where she said normal people shouldn't be in the fandom. She encouraged people to be less judgemental.


There's a difference between being "judgemental" and not wanting people to behave inappropriately.  Wanting people to NOT dress in public in bondage gear being led around by leashes isn't being judgemental, it's thinking that sort of behaviour is inappropriate for public settings.


----------



## Ricky (Apr 19, 2013)

Oh wow. Blast from the past.

I should probably reply to this, seeing how the author of that journal is my ex :\

I wasa also with him at the con he's describing and I was pretty central to "that group."

See, the fandom was a lot different back then. We weren't the ones that started the "cynical" mentality. We were a splinter group that started from another forum with a "hugbox" mentality 10X worse than anything you have ever seen. All my friends were getting banned from the site for being honest, so one of the members started another forum (which I later took over hosting) and we formed a sort-of clique. That's how most of us became friends.

What I *personally* wanted from the site was an un-moderated forum where people from sites like Crushyiffdestroy could talk with all the babyfurs and others they claimed to hate, duke it out and get it over with. Unfortunately I didn't dictate the theme -- nobody did, and it turned into Another Furry Snark Site just like CYD.

Most of the people in that group DIDN'T really care if people were into weird things. A few were staunchly opposed to stuff like AB/DL in the fandom but even most of those people had their own weird things they were into. Even back then, I said the same thing I do today... Nobody would care if the people in question were to use some TACT. Yes, it is good to be your own individual and being into weird things is nothing to be ashamed about. Life will be more fun if you don't hide from yourself. But Jesus fucking Christ, there is a time and place for things. Not everyone wants to hear about your weird fetishes, and people CERTAINLY don't want to be around it.

For example, the person who started the site was at that same con and we were on some hallucinogenic Shulgin drugs that were LEGAL at the time ;3  He ran into someone in the lobby and talked to him, until he realized it was a cub who was... messy, to say the least. Anyway, between that and my cynical-as-fuck-friend who was in the lobby complaining about the con he attended on a yearly basis, he had a bit too much stimulus and was about to fall off the deep end until we went back in my room and I was able to calm things down.

There was also the time I had an entire orgy commence in my hotel room without even knowing about it :\

(which by the way, was the fault of one of those people who hated ab/dl)

There were plenty of reasons for us to feel the way we did, but I feel like he distorted things a bit in that journal.

I know for a fact I didn't give a damn about weirdos. Fuck, *I WAS* one, even though it was in a different way. I just wanted people to act more civilized and yeah, I think part of it was because I wanted furry to be able to become more mainstream. I didn't want it to become a cult full of basement-dwelling fetish-obsessed weirdos, but I also didn't want it to become a bunch of cynical fucks like over on CYD. There IS common ground; you CAN have your cake and eat it too. It just boils down to tact and realizing there is a time and place for things.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 19, 2013)

Ricky said:


> There was also the time I had an entire orgy commence in my hotel room without even knowing about it :\



Dish, girlfriend.


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> There's a difference between being "judgemental" and not wanting people to behave inappropriately.  Wanting people to NOT dress in public in bondage gear being led around by leashes isn't being judgemental, it's thinking that sort of behaviour is inappropriate for public settings.




I'm sorry but I refer back to my previous statement. Where did OP state anything that actually disagreed with this point of view?

And have you read any of the replies since then where things were clarified? I doubt it. You tl;dr'd the entire thread. Before attacking someone shouldn't you check first?


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> And thus I continue to be reminded why I don't go into the Den.
> 
> So what you OP are stating is that having normal well rounded NON-freakydeaky individuals is a bad thing?  There are no words in the english dictionary for how dumb this idea is and how badly your idea would turn out; there's no words either for the amount of disappointment I have for OP right now that the sole reason why they feel this way is cause a popufur doesn't like that furries have realized to have better social skills in public settings than they used to have, so here's a image instead.



Reading is awesome.  Comprehension is even more awesome.  Nice flame attempt, now go to your room.  >:V



Marcus Stormchaser said:


> Sure there's drag shows. And there's oily, muscled men. And all other things involving messing with gender roles. I didn't mean sensual stuff, or mild sexuality. I was talking about things like nonconsentual groping, and well, ok stuff seen in the furmeets thread.
> What I meant was trying to tie hardcore furry fetishes (dirty diapers, cub porn, rape glorification) as part of a larger LGBT mentality. I don't like the sound of that. I guess I was trying to say, being gay isn't a fetish. I don't know, I'm rambling.
> 
> I will say though, there's a lot more creepy fetishes on anime image boards out there, and it seems like the deepest darkest places in the furry fandom is influenced by such sites.



I don't think any part of this thread made a comparison between furs, kink and LGBT.  In fact, aside from your posts there has been no talk of anything LGBT related.  As someone who places a high value on equality, I want you to know that I am not making any correlations nor did Media in his journal.  



Zaraphayx said:


> Yeah I tried to follow the arguments in this thread and people are basically just posting their personal views on it while quoting others so they don't feel like they're soap-boxing I guess?
> 
> Either way I'm loling at the people who basically join a fandom and then think they can dictate what the fandom is and isn't.
> 
> ...



I'll second that.  This has gotten way out of hand.  

*sigh*  Okay, more clarification for those who seem to think I'm arguing for the reintroduction of BDSM and group sex at cons:
I do not believe there should be anything going on at a con or other public venue that isn't family friendly.  What I *DO* believe is that in a forum such as this, we should be more accepting of people rather than trashing anyone who:
Makes animal noises
Prefers to think of themselves in their anthro form
Incorporates being a furry into their sexuality
Enjoys kink within the confines of private space
Refers to their partner as their mate
Uses "furry" speech
Is a "popufur"
Being too friendly (OMG THEY'RE A HUGBOXER!)
Likes baby/hyper/micro fur
Incorporates fur into their spirituality
etc.
*ESPECIALLY *in a forum where profanity, threads devoted to internet hookups and various other "not family friendly" things occur regularly and
*REALLY ESPECIALLY* in a forum where there are so many threads for noobs telling them not to QQ about unfriendly treatment from long standing members simply out of respect for their seniority.
~end rant~

Now I do hope this will clear up a few things about my intentions.  This is moving 90 miles an hour toward becoming nothing more than a flame thread.  SO disappointing...and such a good example of the very point I was trying to make.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 19, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> I'm sorry but I refer back to my previous statement. Where did OP state anything that actually disagreed with this point of view?
> 
> And have you read any of the replies since then where things were clarified? I doubt it. You tl;dr'd the entire thread. Before attacking someone shouldn't you check first?


I know people like OP all too well unfortunately and ran into the "furries need to be tolerant" bs far too often.  Stuff like what OP is talking about is double speak with a bunch of flair.  OP needs to understand that on average people are in the furry fandom for on average five years at most so of course there will be changes within it over time and thus how the group as a whole acts over time will change and thus be different from how interact as a whole from back in 2006.  It's not so much as furries are changing so much as many of your fandom's members have moved on with their lives and left the fandom and there's a ton of new people in it in their stead.  It's not that furries are becoming "overnormalized" as the majority of the people who were in the furry fandom in 2006 are gone and new people replaced them.  The only way the furry fandom could ever go back to "the good old days" is if the furry fandom kicked anyone out that joined past 2006 and banned anyone new that came into the fandom thus ensuring that people like who they want are in it.  However that would pose another problem if your fandom were to do something to keep it "pure" or whatever the hell you would want to call it then since the majority of furries are only in your fandom for a couple years then the membership rate would decrease over time with more and more people quitting it thus dooming it.

Basically people change and lose or gain interest in hobbies and OP just needs to deal with it.


Ravy Marie White said:


> I do not believe there should be anything going on at a con or other public venue that isn't family friendly.  What I *DO* believe is that in a forum such as this, we should be more accepting of people rather than trashing anyone who:
> Makes animal noises
> Prefers to think of themselves in their anthro form
> Incorporates being a furry into their sexuality
> ...


[YT]97du1N7Znb0[/YT]
(The ones I left out I don't really give a fuck about, but these?  Jesus almighty no)


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> I know people like OP all too well unfortunately and ran into the "furries need to be tolerant" bs far too often.  Stuff like what OP is talking about is double speak with a bunch of flair.  OP needs to understand that on average people are in the furry fandom for on average five years at most so of course there will be changes within it over time and thus how the group as a whole acts over time will change and thus be different from how interact as a whole from back in 2006.  It's not so much as furries are changing so much as many of your fandom's members have moved on with their lives and left the fandom and there's a ton of new people in it in their stead.  It's not that furries are becoming "overnormalized" as the majority of the people who were in the furry fandom in 2006 are gone and new people replaced them.  The only way the furry fandom could ever go back to "the good old days" is if the furry fandom kicked anyone out that joined past 2006 and banned anyone new that came into the fandom thus ensuring that people like who they want are in it.  However that would pose another problem if your fandom were to do something to keep it "pure" or whatever the hell you would want to call it then since the majority of furries are only in your fandom for a couple years then the membership rate would decrease over time with more and more people quitting it thus dooming it.
> 
> Basically people change and lose or gain interest in hobbies and OP just needs to deal with it.



Nope.  I don't think you know me at all, sir.  Nice try though.  You get a cookie.  >:V


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 19, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> Nope.  I don't think you know me at all, sir.  Nice try though.  You get a cookie.  >:V


If you are so upset about furries no longer behaving in ways you like then why not just quit the furry fandom?


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> If you are so upset about furries no longer behaving in ways you like then why not just quit the furry fandom?




"Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and should leave if they don't like it."

Sigh.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> I know people like OP all too well unfortunately and ran into the "furries need to be tolerant" bs far too often.  Stuff like what OP is talking about is double speak with a bunch of flair.  OP needs to understand that on average people are in the furry fandom for on average five years at most so of course there will be changes within it over time and thus how the group as a whole acts over time will change and thus be different from how interact as a whole from back in 2006.  It's not so much as furries are changing so much as many of your fandom's members have moved on with their lives and left the fandom and there's a ton of new people in it in their stead.  It's not that furries are becoming "overnormalized" as the majority of the people who were in the furry fandom in 2006 are gone and new people replaced them.  The only way the furry fandom could ever go back to "the good old days" is if the furry fandom kicked anyone out that joined past 2006 and banned anyone new that came into the fandom thus ensuring that people like who they want are in it.  However that would pose another problem if your fandom were to do something to keep it "pure" or whatever the hell you would want to call it then since the majority of furries are only in your fandom for a couple years then the membership rate would decrease over time with more and more people quitting it thus dooming it.
> 
> Basically people change and lose or gain interest in hobbies and OP just needs to deal with it.



Some people manage to write a whole lot without really saying anything.

The reality is that any subculture that creeps into the mainstream attracts those who are... mainstream.

It happened with video games, it happened with anime, it's happening to furry.

The fandom is growing and becoming more representative of mainstream culture.

OP isn't doing anything other than asking the reader to stay true to themselves and not worry about being labeled as weird.

And you are sensationalizing because it's one of your few talents.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 19, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> "Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and should leave if they don't like it."
> 
> Sigh.


Actually I meant it in a "if you are no longer happy with something then why continue with it?"


----------



## TigerBeacon (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> If you are so upset about furries no longer behaving in ways you like then why not just quit the furry fandom go back to your niche group of weirdos you love so much and leave the rest of the fandom alone?



I found it nicer.


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 19, 2013)

That wasn't what was said. What was said was that we should be less judgemental of others, or at the very least, let it be to each their own so long as it's not harming themselves or anyone else. I never saw an indication of general unhappiness with the fandom other than the judgemental side of it being represented in this very thread. Your posts are only adding extreme weight to the point OP was making. We are attacking each other and casting judgement over very shallow and insignificant things and it creates a toxic environment in a forum that is most likely the very first place any fur looking to connect to other furs in a forum would choose to check first. 

FAF views itself as a check against SoFurry and other "hugbox" forums, but sometimes it's nice to have a bit of a balance in what is the largest furry forum on the net. Just saying.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 19, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> We are attacking each other and casting judgement over very shallow and insignificant things and it creates a toxic environment in a forum that is most likely the very first place any fur looking to connect to other furs in a forum would choose to check first.


That's a bad thing?


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> That's a bad thing?



"Why would pervasive anti-social behavior be a bad thing on a social website?"


----------



## Ranguvar (Apr 19, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> That's a bad thing?


Yes


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 20, 2013)

Green_Knight said:


> Yes


Why is it a bad thing?


----------



## Vaelarsa (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't care about the fandom's "public image," but people who shove their fetishes and such out into the public deserve the kinds of reactions they get. 
Oh, what's that? You don't want to bitched right out of the fandom? Well then keep your kinks in your bedroom. The world doesn't have to know.
If you decide to tell them, anyway, you invite whatever reaction comes out of that. And that's no one's fault but your own. The general public isn't responsible for validating your self-esteem and accepting everything that you do with open arms and "HUGZ 4 EVERYWON!!"

As for the fandom becoming "too boring" because of its sexually-deviant and manchild-esque behaviors being ostracized and discouraged, it should have never been such a prominent haven for these things to infest and shit up the cracks in the walls in the first place. At that point, it becomes self-parodying.
I look forward to the day the exterminator knocks down the door and scrubs it clean enough so that it becomes inhabitable by the average person. I'll still have fun drawing my anthro animal creatures and wearing cat ears from time to time. And I won't be so off-put by these furry sites, to begin with.


----------



## TigerBeacon (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> That wasn't what was said. What was said was that we should be less judgemental of others, or at the very least, let it be to each their own so long as it's not harming themselves or anyone else. I never saw an indication of general unhappiness with the fandom other than the judgemental side of it being represented in this very thread. Your posts are only adding extreme weight to the point OP was making. We are attacking each other and casting judgement over very shallow and insignificant things and it creates a toxic environment in a forum that is most likely the very first place any fur looking to connect to other furs in a forum would choose to check first.
> 
> FAF views itself as a check against SoFurry and other "hugbox" forums, but sometimes it's nice to have a bit of a balance in what is the largest furry forum on the net. Just saying.



What the journal writer is basically saying is 'Please turn a blind eye to the fur faggots faggotting around the town. As long as they are not encroaching in your personal space, you should leave them to their fur faggotry'. 

At the same time, they are complaining that most furries nowadays feel no need to broadcast their hedonistic tenancies (aka overnormalization) and equate it as a mark of shame to them for not following their baser instincts, thus losing out on the one thing that made furries relevant in the first place- for being freaks, and can't take the idea of "OHSHIT, WE WERE JUST NORMAL PEOPLE ALL ALONG THERE'S NOTHING INTERESTING ABOUT US ANYMORE QUICK YIFF HARDER!"


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 20, 2013)

TigerBeacon said:


> At the same time, they are complaining that most furries nowadays feel no need to broadcast their hedonistic tenancies (aka overnormalization) and equate it as a mark of shame to them for not following their baser instincts, thus losing out on the one thing that made furries relevant in the first place- for being freaks, and can't take the idea of "OHSHIT, WE WERE JUST NORMAL PEOPLE ALL ALONG THERE'S NOTHING INTERESTING ABOUT US ANYMORE QUICK YIFF HARDER!"


Watch someone in response to the journal OP linked to creates a FA group called, "freak pride" with a logo of a rainbow ballgag.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 20, 2013)

Vaelarsa said:


> I don't care about the fandom's "public image," but people who shove their fetishes and such out into the public deserve the kinds of reactions they get.
> Oh, what's that? You don't want to bitched right out of the fandom? Well then keep your kinks in your bedroom. The world doesn't have to know.
> If you decide to tell them, anyway, you invite whatever reaction comes out of that. And that's no one's fault but your own. The general public isn't responsible for validating your self-esteem and accepting everything that you do with open arms and "HUGZ 4 EVERYWON!!"
> 
> ...



Do you ever hurt your neck from holding your nose up so high?

I swear to christ you're probably the most insufferable person in real life.

Every time you post it it's just one big rage-dump about how deplorable the fandom is (while still willingly associating with it, wonder why? ;3) and how you are such a model citizen who conforms perfectly to normative expectations and everyone else needs to just get on the level or be exsanguinated for the greater good.

Does everything out of the ordinary make you mad or just the internet?

Legit question.

Also you exaggerate a bunch and it's funny.


----------



## Ranguvar (Apr 20, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Why is it a bad thing?


The answer to this question is literally in the same fucking text you quoted earlier.


----------



## Judge Spear (Apr 20, 2013)

You know, Sir Jaws, you blatantly ignored all of Zara's posts...


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 20, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> You know, Sir Jaws, you blatantly ignored all of Zara's posts...



I'm pretty sure I was blocked a long time ago for putting that quote in my signature.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 20, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> I'm pretty sure I was blocked a long time ago for putting that quote in my signature.


Nah, you were blocked for something else like waaaayyyy back in the day.  I don't remember the slapfight we were having was about specifically, but as soon as you posted it I remember half of FaF gasping in horror and going, "not cool man" and I don't mean a "this person said something mean" post I mean a "this person deserves to get punched in the lung" sort of post.  I think it was about someone dying.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 20, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Nah, you were blocked for something else like waaaayyyy back in the day.  I don't remember the slapfight we were having was about specifically, but as soon as you posted it I remember half of FaF gasping in horror and going, "not cool man" and I don't mean a "this person said something mean" post I mean a "this person deserves to get punched in the lung" sort of post.  I think it was about someone dying.



Yeah that sounds a lot more likely than you blowing something way out of proportion. :V


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 20, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> Yeah that sounds a lot more likely than you blowing something way out of proportion. :V


I blocked you in 2010, that thread was in 2011.  You invented time travel and didn't stop 9/11 or at least use it to find out lottery numbers?!


Before we get any more off topic, OP and the person they linked a journal from just needs to learn that a ton of things change over time and that any group dynamics do change over time.  Furries are not immune to this.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> In some cases this might be true, such as in the Hypnolover case where he'd begun to eat dog food.



Was Hypnolover not a shit troll? I'm a wizard from Kansas come to save you by the way. Gimme your gold. 

Let us not count his statements as fact. 


Ricky said:


> I should probably reply to this, seeing how the author of that journal is my ex :\



It's a small fandom after all. :V 

I really don't know how to feel about this sorta topic. I certainly do sympathize with his want for the "good ole days" but also, he should realize that things often don't stay the same. Time changes things and I think its time to move on. 

I don't really care what people do behind closed doors, but on this forum? It's PG-13 and supposed to be work safe...so yeah. :/


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 20, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I don't really care what people do behind closed doors, but on this forum? It's PG-13 and supposed to be work safe...so yeah. :/


Yeah, sex rp or whatever on a forum where there's teens would wind up with people having a visit from chris hansen pretty darn quick.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 20, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> I blocked you in 2010, that thread was in 2011. You invented time travel and didn't stop 9/11 or at least use it to find out lottery numbers?!
> 
> 
> Before we get any more off topic, OP and the person they linked a journal from just needs to learn that a ton of things change over time and that any group dynamics do change over time.  Furries are not immune to this.



Yes, you blocked me in 2010; then proceeded to get into a fight with me on the internet about the sig 2 months after I sigged it.

You're a terrible liar.


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

TigerBeacon said:


> What the journal writer is basically saying is 'Please turn a blind eye to the fur faggots faggotting around the town. As long as they are not encroaching in your personal space, you should leave them to their fur faggotry'.
> 
> At the same time, they are complaining that most furries nowadays feel no need to broadcast their hedonistic tenancies (aka overnormalization) and equate it as a mark of shame to them for not following their baser instincts, thus losing out on the one thing that made furries relevant in the first place- for being freaks, and can't take the idea of "OHSHIT, WE WERE JUST NORMAL PEOPLE ALL ALONG THERE'S NOTHING INTERESTING ABOUT US ANYMORE QUICK YIFF HARDER!"





CannonFodder said:


> Watch someone in response to the journal OP linked to creates a FA group called, "freak pride" with a logo of a rainbow ballgag.



Hey guys, can we chill on the negative gay references?  It's really in bad taste.



CannonFodder said:


> Yeah, sex rp or whatever on a forum where there's teens would wind up with people having a visit from chris hansen pretty darn quick.



I don't support sex rp in forums.  As you may have noticed, that was not included in my list of harmless expressions I've seen oppressed on here in only one day of lurking.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 20, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> Yes, you blocked me in 2010; then proceeded to get into a fight with me on the internet about the sig 2 months after I sigged it.
> 
> You're a terrible liar.


That's like saying that the block function is for use against people you dislike.  Just cause you dislike someone doesn't mean you're supposed to block them.


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

Perhaps we can get the thread back on track before this train goes the rest of the way off of the rails.

Take Media's journal out of the equation here, that's what everyone seems to be so riled up about, and instead get to the main point of *this *thread:



Ravy Marie White said:


> You are all beautiful and your expressions of your furry sides are also beautiful. Whatever happens, know that you will get no judgment from me for being who you are, believing what you believe. I will defend your right to be it and believe it because it is the right thing to do. *As long as you're not hurting anyone*, go for shit. *It is each person's ability to apply their own spin to a general subject that keeps it interesting.*



In other words, being a furry means a different thing to each person. Perhaps we should spend less time casting judgement or tearing down other people in the community for their differences and instead focus on fighting against the things that are _actually_ harmful instead. We waste far too much energy fighting each other instead of offering a place where furries can have a healthy place to discuss their common interest. This place itself has become a clique of sorts, and those who dissent with the popular view are often silenced by people who have zero tolerance for anything they don't understand.

We are all unique and different, and if you were to click on the FA profiles of half the people here screaming about how weird and stupid everyone else is, you'd find that they themselves also have a healthy dose of fap fodder in their favorites as well, and even use the term "mated" on the main site, and so forth. There is a lot of hypocrisy in these forums and it's fueled 100% by the fear of public ridicule. We're more alike than we're willing to admit in this sense.

I feel that the circle of senior trolls has too much power over people's emotions and I'm frankly not afraid of what certain unnamed individuals who never post except to troll or ridicule someone else actually think of me. Because at the end of the day...they're just another human being with fears and hopes and insecurities just like anyone else.

If my lifestyle as a furry is healthy for me I will pursue it. So long as it harms no one else, I don't need to change that. And neither does anyone else here.


----------



## Rilvor (Apr 20, 2013)

Knowledge is power, and the more knowledge you give others the more power you give them. This is correct yes? 

It should come as no surprise that if you give someone knowledge about you that they find deplorable that you will face negative reactions and criticism. Whatever you choose to express to others, you do so willingly accept the positive and the negative.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people having to behave in a way that is acceptable to the public when in a public area.

It is about as simple as that.



Fox_720B said:


> I feel that the circle of senior trolls has too much power


Your argument is instantly garbage, good luck ever getting people to listen to you.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 20, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> That's like saying that the block function is for use against people you dislike.  Just cause you dislike someone doesn't mean you're supposed to block them.



wat

The only purpose of my post was to point out that you flat out lied in an attempt to smear me by insisting that I said something unthinkably disrespectful about 'someone dying'.

You're a morally bankrupt and intellectually handicapped individual and no one should take anything you say seriously ever.


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> Your argument is instantly garbage, good luck ever getting people to listen to you.



There are a number of people here who have been here for a very long time who never post anything except criticisms of others. These are the people I am referring to. I am not saying all senior members are trolls.


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> Knowledge is power, and the more knowledge you give others the more power you give them. This is correct yes?
> 
> It should come as no surprise that if you give someone knowledge about you that they find deplorable that you will face negative reactions and criticism. Whatever you choose to express to others, you do so willingly accept the positive and the negative.
> 
> ...



I'm told you're a widely respected member of the forum so it surprises me just a bit that you also misunderstood the point of the entire thread despite how many times its been spelled out.


----------



## Rilvor (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> There are a number of people here who have been here for a very long time who never post anything except criticisms of others. These are the people I am referring to. I am not saying all senior members are trolls.



Whether or not this is true, and I have no interest in discussing the posting merits of others, does not change the fact of the matter. Playing the Mean Trolls card is an instant loss no matter what the social game may be.



Ravy Marie White said:


> I'm told you're a widely respected member of the forum so it surprises me just a bit that you also misunderstood the point of the entire thread despite how many times its been spelled out.


Is that so? You should judge me based on how you see me, not what others told you about me.
Did I miss it? I could see that. I have an awful headache and a foul mood overall, so perhaps I am wrong. I am not afraid of this. Please do spell it out for me, if you would be so kind?

I dropped in here to leave my thoughts and nothing more.


----------



## MicheleFancy (Apr 20, 2013)

@ CannonFodder + Zaraphayx

Could you two take your personal arguments to PMs rather than potentially getting this thread locked by derailing it?

@Ravy - Their comment may not have been 100% on the ball, but I think the statement holds true, particularly about people's responses when you put yourself out there personally.  In a perfect world, we'd all just let everyone do their own thing and no one would care, but I highly doubt the world will ever be that perfect.. even in places that are supposed to be fun for everyone.


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> Whether or not this is true, and I have no interest in discussing the posting merits of others, does not change the fact of the matter. Playing the Mean Trolls card is an instant loss no matter what the social game may be.




Rilvor, I've been here for a while and I think my reputation is well established. I don't play the "mean trolls" card. I make logical arguments. So here are some facts. There are people here who commonly provide entertainment to others by consistently tearing down other members of the forum for stepping out of the socially accepted "norm" on this forum, regardless of whether the person is actually doing anything harmful or not. The vast majority of these users' posts consist of nothing more than criticism of others and nothing uniquely original or thought provoking. They have fallen into a pattern of only posting when they want to attack someone. How is this actually benefiting the forum aside from entertainment value? How is this benefiting the fandom?

Is calm intellectual debate actually something that deserves to not be taken seriously as an option at all here? Are you really going to make the argument that _*no one*_ will take me seriously when I pointed out a very logical point that there are people here who get away with doing nothing but tearing others down on a consistent basis?

I realize you've been here a long time yourself, and that you are a respected member of the community, but come on. You can't say it isn't happening. 

So if pointing out that I feel that people are often judged and attacked unfairly here means condemning myself to a future of not being taken seriously, I'll take that rather than pretend it isn't happening.


----------



## Zaraphayx (Apr 20, 2013)

MicheleFancy said:


> @ CannonFodder + Zaraphayx
> 
> Could you two take your personal arguments to PMs rather than potentially getting this thread locked by derailing it?
> 
> @Ravy - Their comment may not have been 100% on the ball, but I think the statement holds true, particularly about people's responses when you put yourself out there personally.  In a perfect world, we'd all just let everyone do their own thing and no one would care, but I highly doubt the world will ever be that perfect.. even in places that are supposed to be fun for everyone.



I have nothing left to add unless CF decides to lie some more. 

And no one is going to lock the thread for derailment when people are posting on topic, the worst that'll happen is the offending posts will get deleted and we'll get infracted.


----------



## Rilvor (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> Rilvor, I've been here for a while and I think my reputation is well established. I don't play the "mean trolls" card. I make logical arguments. So here are some facts. There are people here who commonly provide entertainment to others by consistently tearing down other members of the forum for stepping out of the socially accepted "norm" on this forum, regardless of whether the person is actually doing anything harmful or not. The vast majority of these users' posts consist of nothing more than criticism of others and nothing uniquely original or thought provoking. They have fallen into a pattern of only posting when they want to attack someone. How is this actually benefiting the forum aside from entertainment value? How is this benefiting the fandom?
> 
> Is calm intellectual debate actually something that deserves to not be taken seriously as an option at all here? Are you really going to make the argument that _*no one*_ will take me seriously when I pointed out a very logical point that there are people here who get away with doing nothing but tearing others down on a consistent basis?
> 
> I realize you've been here a long time yourself, and that you are a respected member of the community, but come on. You can't say it isn't happening.



Let me reiterate myself. Regardless of whether or not your views on people's posting habits fit the bill, it does not change the fact of the matter. The very fact "Trolls" hasn't been typed up there next to Godwin's is about all that is missing.

Just by that alone you've opened up your argument into something that will never be intelligent or useful, it just serves to give people an easy thing to latch onto. Rather like I am doing now, no? You see my point then, I hope.

On a further elaboration of that, you cannot demand calm intellectual debate and call anyone else a troll. That is not a benevolent attitude.

I do not frankly care about whether others post criticisms or not. I will read them and judge them with my own thoughts and either consider them or cast them aside, could you not do the same?


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

Fair enough. I will clarify then. By "trolls" I mean "users who consistently attack but have nothing else of intellectual value to offer."

Generally, I consider that to be a troll. But for the sake of argument, we'll leave that term out.

My original point, however, stands as follows:



Fox_720B said:


> In other words, being a furry means a different thing to each person. Perhaps we should spend less time casting judgement or tearing down other people in the community for their differences and instead focus on fighting against the things that are _actually_ harmful instead. We waste far too much energy fighting each other instead of offering a place where furries can have a healthy place to discuss their common interest. This place itself has become a clique of sorts, and those who dissent with the popular view are often silenced by people who have zero tolerance for anything they don't understand.
> 
> We are all unique and different, and if you were to click on the FA profiles of half the people here screaming about how weird and stupid everyone else is, you'd find that they themselves also have a healthy dose of fap fodder in their favorites as well, and even use the term "mated" on the main site, and so forth. There is a lot of hypocrisy in these forums and it's fueled 100% by the fear of public ridicule. We're more alike than we're willing to admit in this sense.
> 
> ...


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> Fair enough. I will clarify then. By "trolls" I mean "users who consistently attack but have nothing else of intellectual value to offer."



I see a lot of people bring this up with no evidence. If you believe this to be true why not provide a link or a quote to such behavior? I mean if it's really that important, bring it into the light instead of making it vague. 

I often find people are a bit thin-skinned about certain subjects that hit close to home. To be honest, I don't come here to be agreed with. I come to this forum to see what people think and if they disagree, I LOVE it. (although its very nice to find like-minded people) I want to know why they feel differently and how they came to feel that way. 

It's been my experience that people who continue to shitpost eventually get banned.


----------



## Rilvor (Apr 20, 2013)

Frankly, I've gone back over the last three pages and aside from a useless spat I don't see the issue here. It looks like just about everybody agrees that there are a lot of behaviors that do not belong in the public sphere.

We've already been over that the furry fandom will change with time, this is a given. Not changing means stagnation and death. Some will accept this and some will not.

We have been over that some people take that as meaning enjoy what you enjoy, and some people take that as meaning bunker down as if others are somehow trying to ruin their fun and stop them from doing things.

I'm not really certain what we have left to discuss then, really. I see a bit of assumption and desire to silence the opinions of others though, merely because they are put forth in a crass manner or happen to disagree.

I do not see any fighting here, not anything noteworthy aside from the previously mentioned two. Disagreements aren't fights.


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> Is that so? You should judge me based on how you see me, not what others told you about me.
> Did I miss it? I could see that. I have an awful headache and a foul mood overall, so perhaps I am wrong. I am not afraid of this. Please do spell it out for me, if you would be so kind?



I honestly think I may have derailed the thread, myself, by posting the link to Media's journal at all.  However, my intent was to promote an idea of acceptance of the expression of harmless fur-related behaviors in the forum.  This post of mine explains it a little better:



Ravy Marie White said:


> *sigh*  Okay, more clarification for  those who seem to think I'm arguing for the reintroduction of BDSM and  group sex at cons:
> I do not believe there should be anything going on at a con or other public venue that isn't family friendly.  What I *DO* believe is that in a forum such as this, we should be more accepting of people rather than trashing anyone who:
> Makes animal noises
> Prefers to think of themselves in their anthro form
> ...






MicheleFancy said:


> @Ravy - Their comment may not have been 100% on the ball, but I think the statement holds true, particularly about people's responses when you put yourself out there personally.  In a perfect world, we'd all just let everyone do their own thing and no one would care, but I highly doubt the world will ever be that perfect.. even in places that are supposed to be fun for everyone.



Read the above.  lol  I'm really not suggesting any kind of a free for all.


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## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I see a lot of people bring this up with no evidence. If you believe this to be true why not provide a link or a quote to such behavior? I mean if it's really that important, bring it into the light instead of making it vague.
> 
> I often find people are a bit thin-skinned about certain subjects that hit close to home. To be honest, I don't come here to be agreed with. I come to this forum to see what people think and if they disagree, I LOVE it. (although its very nice to find like-minded people) I want to know why they feel differently and how they came to feel that way.
> 
> It's been my experience that people who continue to shitpost eventually get banned.



I would love to, and I'm sure others would too, except that according to the rules we are not allowed to publicly call out other members of the forum by name. Although that has happened a few times in this thread, I'd rather err on the side of the rules than get myself infracted or banned. The evidence is there. Look for a certain member whose username sounds strikingly similar to a popular electronics brand for one example of the type of user I'm speaking of.


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I see a lot of people bring this up with no evidence. If you believe this to be true why not provide a link or a quote to such behavior? I mean if it's really that important, bring it into the light instead of making it vague.
> 
> I often find people are a bit thin-skinned about certain subjects that hit close to home. To be honest, I don't come here to be agreed with. I come to this forum to see what people think and if they disagree, I LOVE it. (although its very nice to find like-minded people) I want to know why they feel differently and how they came to feel that way.
> 
> It's been my experience that people who continue to shitpost eventually get banned.



Throwing anyone under the bus would violate the very spirit of this thread.


----------



## MicheleFancy (Apr 20, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> Read the above.  lol  I'm really not suggesting any kind of a free for all.



I never suggested a free for all, nor did Rilvor.  I think you may be the one not quite understanding what we're saying.
I find that in every fandom or group there are always different cliques or groups within them.  On the internet it's even easier to find places that are closer to your own beliefs or more on par for what you want out of the over all group.  I'm not suggesting anyone leave, they're welcome to stay if they want.  I just personally go to the places that fit me better rather than try to change the already established culture.  Other people can do that, but I'm not really that aggressive or assertive enough to stay there.


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

MicheleFancy said:


> I never suggested a free for all, nor did Rilvor.  I think you may be the one not quite understanding what we're saying.
> I find that in every fandom or group there are always different cliques or groups within them.  On the internet it's even easier to find places that are closer to your own beliefs or more on par for what you want out of the over all group.  I'm not suggesting anyone leave, they're welcome to stay if they want.  I just personally go to the places that fit me better rather than try to change the already established culture.  Other people can do that, but I'm not really that aggressive or assertive enough to stay there.



LOL!  I said that I'M not suggesting a free for all, not that someone else did.  It just seems that most of the people responding to this are assuming that I am pushing for a complete acceptance of any and all behavior.  That isn't the case.  I think there is a time and a place for everything, just like everyone else here.  However, the items I listed in red text in a few previous comments have been unnecessarily shunned in the forum.  I thought that was a bit excessive.  I'm just asking people not to go overboard with it.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> I would love to, and I'm sure others would too, except that according to the rules we are not allowed to publicly call out other members of the forum by name. Although that has happened a few times in this thread, I'd rather err on the side of the rules than get myself infracted or banned. The evidence is there. Look for a certain member whose username sounds strikingly similar to a popular electronics brand for one example of the type of user I'm speaking of.



Then report it and wait for mods to access the situation. I believe that is in the rules too. 



Ravy Marie White said:


> Throwing anyone under the bus would violate the very spirit of this thread.



I will snuff out your light until there is nothing left but my darkness! >:[ 

:V


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I will snuff out your light until there is nothing left but my darkness! >:[
> :V



Ninja sarcasm mark noted.  Challenge accepted.  The battle between good and evil begins now.  >:V


----------



## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> Then report it and wait for mods to access the situation. I believe that is in the rules too.




I have on multiple occasions. Results have been mixed.


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## Butters Shikkon (Apr 20, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> Ninja sarcasm mark noted.  Challenge accepted.  The battle between good and evil begins now.  >:V



+10 respect. 

I have been on the biggest Oz the Great and Powerful kick ever since I saw it. 

Back to your regularly scheduled thread now, people.


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## Rilvor (Apr 20, 2013)

It's all fine to not want people to act like children or churls when voicing their opinion, so long as you aren't trying to stop them from doing that. It ties in to what I was saying earlier that if you put information about yourself where the public can see it, it's a neutral statement that accepts good and bad.


----------



## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> +10 respect.
> 
> I have been on the biggest Oz the Great and Powerful kick ever since I saw it.
> 
> Back to your regularly scheduled thread now, people.



That movie....was epic.  In 3-D, doubly so.  I need to see it at least 6 more times, I think.


----------



## Joey (Apr 20, 2013)

@OP

Frankly, the last thing the fandom needs is more creeps and sick fucks. Thanks.


----------



## TigerBeacon (Apr 20, 2013)

I get the point of what you're trying so hard to push: acceptance. Everyone needs to be accepting, not judgmental blahblahblah. Its not a difficult concept. 

In this instance, however, you used a person who spent several paragraphs on his own personal story and history tying the idea of 'acceptance' as a negativity towards the group he felt was relinquishing the homely 'uniqueness' he so loved by, in his mind, selling out to mainstream by withholding the deplorable behavior that made furries so infamous in the first place, thus losing their relevance as they become as comparable to any other interest group. That's the whole idea behind 'keeping the furry camaraderie by alienating the fandom' post I made a while back. 

The fact that the writer also aggressively pushes everything merely as a speech of acceptance shows he also fails to realize that his massive post have superseded his point, which seems to be writing in the spirit of a completely different context. In short, the little 'don't change for the sake of being normal' is just a little band-aid for the entire thing, which screams to me 'Furries shouldn't try to be behaved for the sake of anyone else.' I and most people pretty much sees that and understand it, yet the people that are with the side of the author take it as everyone being extremely judgmental in that the style you wish to represent the fandom is looked on with scrutiny when you feel it shouldn't. 

Living your life the way you want is your own business, everyone agrees with that. When you're living it in a way that makes everyone look bad is when we start having problems. Not everyone who are furries is going to agree with that stupid shit- that doesn't make them normal or boring. It means their visions aren't narrowed to the single immature motto of 'i do wut i want'.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Apr 20, 2013)

Mentova said:


> That journal was so dumb I had to stop reading about 2/3s into it.
> 
> It just sounded like someone complaining because the fandom is getting bigger and expanding, and isn't an exclusive fetish club anymore. I think this is a _good_ thing. Its nice to be able to tell people that one of your hobbies is furry and not have them assume that you're a massive creepy pervert. Its nice going to conventions and checking out panels and the dealers den to buy cool comics and art without some creepy fucks running around in the creepy 6 nippled fursuit like in that journal. And its nice being able to go to furry events without friends and family thinking you are going to an animal themed orgy.
> 
> ...


Bravo! Now have a mentos, your fox cock breath is stinking up the joint :V


----------



## Judge Spear (Apr 20, 2013)

...
Well shit.


----------



## Mentova (Apr 20, 2013)

d.batty said:


> Bravo! Now have a mentos, your fox cock breath is stinking up the joint :V



>:C


Also guys knock the dumb shit off. The last few pages were painful to read. Keep this thread civil and on track.

ANYWAYS

I see a lot of people saying that the journal was about acceptance of who you are and the only part that really comes off that way is the last paragraph. And I find that message, in the context of the beginning where he complains that cons aren't the same with overtly sexual tones anymore, to be rather childish. Yes, you should try and be accepting of each other as long as you're not hurting anyone, but there gets to a point where your behavior is so immature that I feel that you need to step back a bit.

Jerk it to furry porn daily and RP as a wolf fox dragon hybrid, but do it in private without using it as an identity you shove in everyone's face? Godspeed, you weirdo you.

Go to cons in fucksuits and bondage gear and openly do pervy shit at the con, and then bitch and moan when people are like "dude, wtf?". Then grow up.

Some people seem to take "acceptance" and twist the idea to "I should be able to do what I want whenever I want no matter how distasteful and immature and people should be fine with it!"


----------



## Mikhal18 (Apr 20, 2013)

Imo the fandom has more to benefit if it becomes "Less Exclusive". "Mainstream" is such an harsh word, you know? And even if that happens, the fandom will never lose "that" magic it has you know?Like:

- Adult people being able to let their Inner-Child come out once in a while. You see, being childish (wanting to hug a fursuit, screaming like little kids when seeing something they find cute...) everynow and then helps to blow-off some steam for someone who has a resposibility-filled, migrain-prone damn lifes. People need to feel "at ease". And someone who truly likes and embrances the Furry Culture as a hobby, a personal interest, a way of meeting others with the same interestes, purely to talk and have fun, has an "escape" from reality, from that annoying life, from those every-day-headaches at work. There is no other fandom like this one. 

- People associated with our fandom are probably the most open-minded (sans few exceptions) people one can ever find. In EVERYTHING. It's easy to have a conversation with anyone (as far as I know) here about almost everything. Try doing that on other communities. (the closest to the Furry Fandom are, probably, the Anime Communities, which have similar interests compared to us furries.).

I've never been to a Con, and I would certainly love to attend a few. Especially the UK and US ones I've seen photos of. (hug a fur and stuff). Though seeing all the videos everyone uploads on YT and lots of photos as well, there are children there. CHILDREN. Remember that kids find the suits "funny" because "They're fluffy animals that can talk/understand me! YAAAY". Having someone running around with a dildo while flapping his arms is... "disgusting" to say the least. It does not only brings shame to the person itself, to the community as a whole. And there's still this "thing" against Furries. I've heard stories of bosses firing employees because they were spotted in a FurCon / doing Furry Stuff... Dunno if this is true, but I wouldn't be really surprised...

I understand there are people who are more into the Yiffin' thing and such, I respect that. But I believe such stuff should be done in a discreet way. By "discreet", I mean don't make a jerk of yourself (you, who do it) and don't make the ones around you look bad either. 
I for once wouldn't want to be "associated" with "that guy with the *animal* suit with a 7ft long penis that goes around hugging people flamboiantly", even if I happen to know him.

Imo, the journal has a few valid points, but yet again: Times change, so do people. So does everything. If something doesn't change with time, it's bound to be forgotten / unused, thus, extinct.

TL;DR:
... read the fuckin' post.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Apr 20, 2013)

You know I generally stay out of the den, but this has to be the most laughable and misguided thread I've read.

You do realize that Furry was pretty much a circle of people drawing and appreciating funny animal pictures? That was it. It was fans of people who liked things like Disney, WB etc... and created their own stuff or fanart of it, Anthropomorphic is too long to say, anthro, was detached so came the word "furry" 

No different from anime fans. Yes it expanded out to people who liked mascots and suit making. It also expanded out more than that. People who liked to shit in diapers or had other sexual kinks had them before furry. What happened was that it got lumped into it. For sexual stuff? Happened in the anime fandom too, at the time hentai was the biggest import so naturally college kids weren't opposed to sex because it was a great time to have sex! Then people who looked for anything to be inclusive of this club started lumping themselves in with furry. 

So people who originally drew funny animal pictures for fun or storytelling splintered out because it got confusing. Some went back to using anthro more. If anything people forced their way in a small group with little to say. That's why furry is really hard to define these days. The fandom didn't exactly have a golden days and the "acceptance and tolerance" thing was overblown. There was always disagreement as to what was furry. The thing was each group had their own small group of vocal advocates. People don't exactly enjoy fighting (vs debating) so even with the vocal opinions people just kinda let themselves be grouped. 

Web sites opening up with galleries, and conventions, want people and bodies. So it helped perpetuate it. Just go back through the years and look. It wasn't a cluster of "perverts" naming themselves furry in the beginning, but people wanting to belong. Furry was originally "slang" for the art. When it became slang for people who liked the art, and then everyone else who threw themselves in the group problems occurred. 

So the people who ingrained or forgot how this happened, are a bunch of hypocrites for saying they miss the "good old days" and are upset over it becoming mainstream?

Nah it's pretty much becoming full circle if anything.


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## Fox_720B (Apr 20, 2013)

I agree with ashes nei here regarding the origins of the fandom. This did not start with a fetish element by any means. I frankly and unfortunately agree that the reference to media's post pretty much derailed the point of the thread from the start. It's unfortunate, because many good points in this thread were overlooked as a result.


----------



## Troj (Apr 20, 2013)

Rigby said:


> I agree with you completely, but a couple minor issues with this. 1.  For "Furry" to cease meaning anything, it has to clearly mean something  first. "Furry" has  always been too loose to have any real meaning as a term.



Furry is definitely hard to define. But, at the basic level, most people agree that furries are people who like anthro animals and anthro art--but, from there, things get fuzzy. That's true.

Actually, by "meaningless," I meant more that if absolutely everyone becomes furry, then no one is furry--or at least, it gets hard to tell who really cares about and is interested in the fandom, and who just bought the Official Fandom t-shirt at Limited Too on a whim.

I'd still like Furry to be its own separate, unique subculture that people have to actively seek out, and actively identify with, if that makes sense. I don't want everyone on my block to have a generic, shoddy, sweatshop-made fursuit from Hot Topic. (Not that this would likely happen, mind you.)

Maybe I'm being an indie hipster what-have-you here, but I'd ideally like Furry to become acceptable, without becoming "cool." If that makes sense.

So, basically, I'm saying, there's a very happy medium between "totally Katy Perry-ized and watered down" and "everybody injects heroin into their eyeballs and has a murrsuit orgy."



			
				Marcus Stormchaser said:
			
		

> Lastly, let me say something for everyone to hear: being gay and being a pervert are *NOT*, I repeat *NOT*,  the same thing. So for god's sake furries, stop using LGBT labels as an  excuse to be perverted. It really hurts the image of LGBT people who  are facing real discrimination out there. Furry isn't supposed to be the  letter F for the LGBT spectrum. You can make it that way if you want,  but it's not that in general.



Right.

You can be a sexual person, and a furry, but that doesn't mean your being a sexual--or even, kinky--person has anything to do with your furriness, or, especially, with the furry culture at large.


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## nonconformist (Apr 20, 2013)

People identify as part of the fandom for different reasons. There are people who are perverts, like actual this-is-socially-unacceptable weird, who it seems just jumped on the bandwagon so they could be considered a part of /something/ instead of their own subculture. There are people that just like anthro animals an awful lot. There are those who are here for the porn and just the porn. And there are those who came in originally because they liked antro art- the original furries- and they will stay because they like art, or like animals, or are passionate about the fandom to the extent that any random kid going OMG IM A FURRY!!!1!! won't reach. There will be a fuzzy blur between who cares to that extent and who doesn't, but the people that make the fandom special ARE the people that are passionate about it, and those are the people that'll stay.


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## Ricky (Apr 20, 2013)

Fox_720B said:


> I agree with ashes nei here regarding the origins of the fandom. This did not start with a fetish element by any means.



Uh... I remember lots of fetish porn from at least 15-20 years back.

Are we talking about "origins of the fandom" when it was like 50 people or something?


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## Calemeyr (Apr 20, 2013)

Here's my issue: if you make furry out to be a fetish, and you really don't care about the art or anything besides the fetish stuff, it's really not a fandom anymore for you. It's more like, eh, a BDSM community, and conventions are like BDSM cons. In this regard, the only thing separating furry from other fetish communities is a very thin coating of furry images.

What some people don't get is that the fandom wasn't founded to specifically be a place for very, very scary people to be free. It was a nerd fandom that popped up out of the sci-fi fantasy circuit. Out of Disney, Albedo Anthropomorphics, and Looney Toons. And yes, there was a sexual aspect to the fandom, since nerds like sexual things (Scifi/fantasy has Heavy Metal for instance). But the sexual aspect wasn't people getting turned on by used diapers. It was (relatively) normal porn, gay, straight, and the like. No sextuple breasted hermaphrodites. Sometime in the 90's the fetishes showed up. I won't name names, but it supposedly happened in California, at the first furry convention. It may have also appeared with the use of USENET, where noone knows your real name so you can be proud of your "dildo-bong multitasking device."

Yes, you can say "wave your freak flag high," but I have reservations. One, don't put your used dildo on a stick and parade around with it in public. Two, murrsuit in public=eww. Three, save the fetishes for the bedroom.

I have no problem with porn in the fandom, it's everywhere outside the fandom. But when the really, really freaky stuff starts popping up in the public eye, things that make fandom more isolated and may lead people to consider us as "pedophiles" or "bestialists," you have to stand back and think if you're doing something wrong.

I'm not going to define furry for other people. I have my own definition. But please, I don't want to be labeled as a pedophile, a bestialist, or an all around fetishistic pervert just because I fursuit or draw furry art. In this case, shaming of people who decide to grope people in public or masturbate in public is fine.


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## Rigby (Apr 20, 2013)

The only thing I learned from this thread is that two dudes are still  made about something from 2010 and about half of you have zero reading comprehension wow.



Marcus Stormchaser said:


> Here's my issue:



Like this guy. Who are you responding to exactly? Literally NO ONE  (that I can see in this thread) has even begun to disagree with you, but  still you're pouring out paragraphs fighting against these crazy and  bizarre beliefs that I have yet to see anyone else assert, or even  reference! I hope you understand that no one is  really disagreeing with you.

Actually, very few people are  disagreeing with each other at all in this thread. It's been pages of people saying the  same exact things over and over and then saying someone who agrees with them  is wrong.

And I swear, if I see one more post saying something  like "oh what you guys want people walking around in bondage? you guys  are dumb" even though no one *EVER* fucking said  that to begin with, I don't know, I probably won't do anything other  than point out that no one advocated tpublic bondage, or six nippled fursuits, or shitting yourself in  public, or fursuit orgies in hotel rooms, because no one did and you're  arguing no one. I have seen people advocating being yourself and people wonder whether more mainstream people in the furry community is bad, but I haven't seen any advocate anything fetish related (or I missed it, which I doubt).


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## Calemeyr (Apr 20, 2013)

Rigby said:


> The only thing I learned from this thread is that two dudes are still  made about something from 2010 and about half of you have zero reading comprehension wow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I admit, maybe I'm too chicken to actually post these things in the comments section of Media's journal, where people are actually advocating the creepy stuff. Maybe not for themselves, but saying it's fun to have around.


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## Rigby (Apr 20, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> I admit, maybe I'm too chicken to actually post these things in the comments section of Media's journal, where people are actually advocating the creepy stuff. Maybe not for themselves, but saying it's fun to have around.



Oh I didn't even look at the journal comments, that makes a lot more sense then.

Wow making a thread about a journal post is really awkward.


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## Judge Spear (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm lost...again.


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## Ozriel (Apr 20, 2013)

Personally, I don't care if the fandom goes mainstream. It happens a lot to geek cultures once the populace grows. If that gets people to stop sniffing people's asses in public and correcting...questionable behavior outside of the internet, then I consider it a win in my book.

People have to understand that there are different opinions in the fandom; not everyone will be on the same level as other people.


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## Arshes Nei (Apr 20, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Uh... I remember lots of fetish porn from at least 15-20 years back.
> 
> Are we talking about "origins of the fandom" when it was like 50 people or something?



Pretty much. That isn't even to say porn didn't exist in the beginning of it either. Porn existed before there were subgroups producing it, either anime, comic books etc..
Fandom is like...

[yt]WhVw8KRRYVU[/yt]

Like things just got tacked on and spiraled on....


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

TigerBeacon said:


> I get the point of what you're trying so hard to push: acceptance. Everyone needs to be accepting, not judgmental blahblahblah. Its not a difficult concept.
> 
> In this instance, however, you used a person who spent several paragraphs on his own personal story and history tying the idea of 'acceptance' as a negativity towards the group he felt was relinquishing the homely 'uniqueness' he so loved by, in his mind, selling out to mainstream by withholding the deplorable behavior that made furries so infamous in the first place, thus losing their relevance as they become as comparable to any other interest group. That's the whole idea behind 'keeping the furry camaraderie by alienating the fandom' post I made a while back.
> 
> ...



As I stated earlier, I probably made a mistake by using Media's journal as an example as his view was a bit extreme.  I was hoping all my disclaimers surrounding it would have cleared the air but it seems his post was so offensive to so many that my intended message was lost.  Sad, really.  All anyone is seeing is an argument for letting everyone fly their freak flag in public when I was merely asking people not to jump at every shadow.  There are many benign fur related interests that aren't in need of correction.  It just seems sad that things as simple as referring to a partner who is also a furry as one's "mate" is frowned upon as vehemently as public bondage.  I'd like to see the level of offense taken to certain behaviors scaled appropriately.  

When I came on here I was afraid to even partake in the forum because of a thread bashing anyone who used the word "mate".  My partner and I use it lovingly with each other and it used to be a common term for a marital partner in the 50's and 60's.  Yet, here, it is lumped in with multi-nippled fur suits with several leashed men in tow.  The gap between these two practices is vast.  We don't need to be afraid of everything.  It diminishes our intelligence, which is a shame, because it strikes me that there are quite a few intelligent people following this forum.  Justice tempered with reason.  That was all I was asking for.  

That being said, I appreciate your willingness to notice that I was not in complete agreement with Media.  So many have overlooked that.



Arshes Nei said:


> Pretty much. That isn't even to say porn  didn't exist in the beginning of it either. Porn existed before there  were subgroups producing it, either anime, comic books etc..
> Fandom is like...
> Like things just got tacked on and spiraled on....



Critters.  Good call.  Now THERE'S a movie I haven't even thought about in ages.  
Also: Rule 34 :V



Mentova said:


> >:C
> Also guys knock the dumb shit off. The last few pages were painful to read. Keep this thread civil and on track.
> ANYWAYS
> I see a lot of people saying that the journal was about acceptance of  who you are and the only part that really comes off that way is the last  paragraph. And I find that message, in the context of the beginning  where he complains that cons aren't the same with overtly sexual tones  anymore, to be rather childish. Yes, you should try and be accepting of  each other as long as you're not hurting anyone, but there gets to a  point where your behavior is so immature that I feel that you need to  step back a bit.
> Some people seem to take "acceptance" and twist the idea to "I should be  able to do what I want whenever I want no matter how distasteful and  immature and people should be fine with it!"



Thanks for the mod.  It was needed.  Yeah.  I _*really*_ screwed up by referencing that journal.  I'd edit it out if it wouldn't knock the entire thread out of context.  Oi vey.  Such a waste of a good message.  I'll log this away as a learning experience and limit future topics to my own thoughts.


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## Brazen (Apr 20, 2013)

This is still a topic of contention? Do I need to draw you a crude MSPaint comic explaining why the OP post is stupid?


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Brazen said:


> This is still a topic of contention? Do I need to draw you a crude MSPaint comic explaining why the OP post is stupid?



*rolls eyes*  Here we go with the pointless insults again.  

Read the rest of the thread.  It helps. >:V

Honestly, I thought the comments in this thread have been rather productive.  Lots of good insight and varying perspectives.


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## Brazen (Apr 20, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> *rolls eyes*  Here we go with the pointless insults again.
> 
> Read the rest of the thread.  It helps. >:V
> 
> Honestly, I thought the comments in this thread have been rather productive.  Lots of good insight and varying perspectives.



No, they really aren't.


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Brazen said:


> No, they really aren't.



Of course you're entitled to your opinion but simply insulting people doesn't make anything better.  

Sorry someone pissed in your cheerios but you _do_ have the option of simply ignoring threads you don't like. :V


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## Grimfang (Apr 20, 2013)

Ravy Marie White said:


> Of course you're entitled to your opinion but simply insulting people doesn't make anything better.
> 
> Sorry someone pissed in your cheerios but you _do_ have the option of simply ignoring threads you don't like. :V



You might not be familiar with Brazen, but you shouldn't take him too seriously, haha. He's been the resident puller of chains for some time.


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## Mentova (Apr 20, 2013)

Guys I literally _just _posted a message to stop the pointless bickering. If it starts up again I'll be bringing the hammer down on people.


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 20, 2013)

Mentova said:


> Guys I literally _just _posted a message to stop the pointless bickering. If it starts up again I'll be bringing the hammer down on people.



I'm starting to think this thread may need to be locked, honestly.  It had a good run.


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## Brazen (Apr 20, 2013)

Grimfang said:


> You might not be familiar with Brazen, but you shouldn't take him too seriously, haha. He's been the resident puller of chains for some time.



Hey, _I'm_ the one being offended here, OP is suggesting that the seedy perverts in the fandom are what make it, rather than cartoon animals.


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## Artillery Spam (Apr 20, 2013)

Watch out, if you all keep this up Mentova will close this wonderful thread like he does all of the other wonderful threads on FAF.


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## Ricky (Apr 21, 2013)

So, let me get this straight.

This whole journal was about *tact* destroying the fandumb's image?

He says in the comments it is about "being yourself."

Why does "being yourself" have to include eccentric and tactless behavior?

People can still be into their weird little things, not necessarily HIDE it but still use tact in social situations.


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## HonorFennec (Apr 21, 2013)

Your thoughts, beleifs, opinions, theorys, ideas, knowledge, is your own, wether we choose to think, believe, opinionate, theoryrize, or brainstorm with you is our choice. If you don't like it Gtfo on the horse you rode in on. Have a nice time everyone!


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## Shay Feral (Apr 21, 2013)

Ricky said:


> So, let me get this straight.
> 
> This whole journal was about *tact* destroying the fandumb's image?
> 
> ...



This thread lacks tact.


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## Batty Krueger (Apr 21, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> Personally, I don't care if the fandom goes mainstream. It happens a lot to geek cultures once the populace grows. If that gets people to stop sniffing people's asses in public and correcting...questionable behavior outside of the internet, then I consider it a win in my book.
> 
> People have to understand that there are different opinions in the fandom; not everyone will be on the same level as other people.


So what your saying is if furry becomes mainstream, I can finally wear my fursuit on a daily basis? Like to work and stuffs?

Got it


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## Toshabi (Apr 21, 2013)

d.batty said:


> So what your saying is if furry becomes mainstream, I can finally wear my fursuit on a daily basis? Like to work and stuffs?
> 
> Got it





It's still against the law to bring any sort of sexual object/toy to work. That's sexual harassment.


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## Batty Krueger (Apr 21, 2013)

Gunna suck for my work when I rub my crusty fur all over my co workers!


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## Mikhal18 (Apr 21, 2013)

d.batty said:


> Gunna suck for my work then when I rub my crusty fur all over my co workers!


If the fandom goes mainstream, I believe everyone should totally rub their furryness on everyone's faces!


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## Toshabi (Apr 21, 2013)

Mikhal18 said:


> If the fandom goes mainstream, I believe everyone should totally rub their furryness on everyone's faces!



Im new here but is that furry for "blowjob"?


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## Ricky (Apr 21, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> This thread lacks tact.



Yeah, because of comments like this :roll:



Toshabi said:


> Im new here but is that furry for "blowjob"?



No, it's called a "scritch."

One's dried-up bodily fluids are simply ignored as if they don't exist.


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## Calemeyr (Apr 21, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Yeah, because of comments like this :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Ricky, here's some help with the missing "tact" in this thread. Do you think the other people will accept it? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SC1NiefhaiI/T4jkYMBGWBI/AAAAAAAABAc/tpugEIpNGA4/s1600/tacks.jpg
Am I doing it right? :V


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## Ricky (Apr 21, 2013)

You found the missing tacts!


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## mapdark (Apr 21, 2013)

The journal linked by OP depresses me like hell.

The fact that the fandom and cons have become more ... Well... NORMAL , is not something I particularly feel sad for.
Heck fuck subtlety , I am FUCKING GLAD that people are starting to make a difference between public and bedroom behaviour. 

So you like pooping your pants and reenacting 2 girls 1 cup in your spare time . Well fine! Just don't do it in public and DO NOT attach the whole fandom to it as if it is an irrefutable fact that every furry out there does it.

(Seriously though , why is it always the weirdest mofos trying to speak to media as if they were the furry equivalent to UN representatives?!)

I personally DO NOT miss the creepy pedophile-looking types I would see at furcons in the early 2000's . I do not miss seeing people who would bark in the middle of the street randomly . it was so embarassing to be in the same vicinity that when I would see them out on the street I would hide my con badges if I was out of the con grounds in fear of being harassed by local people.

The fact that some people think that THIS kind of fur fan being less prevalent is a BAD thing mesmerises me. It leaves me speechless because it's like they WANT to be pointed at and looked down on. Media can talk all he wants about the good old freak shows of yesteryear , I can say confidently that most people in the fandom probably don't use it as a shock-value kinda thing to freak out people for lulz. 

At least I hope not.

In my case and the case of many friends I have in the fandom , the main point of being in the fandom is an interest in anthropomorphic animals.

And IF there are related SEXUAL interests , at least we don't feel like waving it in random people's faces like bloody idiots.


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## Ozriel (Apr 21, 2013)

d.batty said:


> So what your saying is if furry becomes mainstream, I can finally wear my fursuit on a daily basis? Like to work and stuffs?
> 
> Got it



Only for halloween. :V

If you do wear your suit everyday, make sure you talk like a mouthbreather and have your face ridden with zits and speak of how furry is the same as being black.


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## Zaraphayx (Apr 21, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> Only for halloween. :V
> 
> If you do wear your suit everyday, make sure you talk like a mouthbreather and have your face ridden with zits and speak of how furry is the same as being black.



It is the same.

They both wear collars.


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## Azure (Apr 21, 2013)

Toshabi said:


> It's still against the law to bring any sort of sexual object/toy to work. That's sexual harassment.


i bring my dick to work every day

ive got 14 pending lawsuits


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## Mikhal18 (Apr 21, 2013)

Azure said:


> i bring my dick to work every day
> 
> ive got 14 pending lawsuits


Man. That must be _hard_ to deal with that every day.


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## Shay Feral (Apr 21, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Yeah, because of comments like this :roll:



The irony of the conversation is that most who are preaching "tact" aren't practicing it themselves.


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## Ricky (Apr 21, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> The irony of the conversation is that most who are preaching "tact" aren't practicing it themselves.



Tact online =/= tact in person.

You can't really tell one from the other.

Why do people need tact online?


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## Calemeyr (Apr 21, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Tact online =/= tact in person.
> 
> You can't really tell one from the other.
> 
> Why do people need tact online?


So wait, we need tact _online_ but not in real life? How does that make sense? E: (not talking about you, Ricky, I'm agreeing with you)

Furries, keep at it you loveable oafs.


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## Shay Feral (Apr 21, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Tact online =/= tact in person.
> 
> You can't really tell one from the other.
> 
> Why do people need tact online?



I see, tact; but only when it benefits you.


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## Rigby (Apr 21, 2013)

Marcus Stormchaser said:


> So wait, we need tact _online_ but not in real life?



No, he's saying the standards of acceptability online and IRL are different.


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## Ravy Marie White (Apr 21, 2013)

.......yeah.  This thread got away from me.  Have fun, guys.  

*exits shit storm, stage left*


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## Zaraphayx (Apr 22, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> I see, tact; but only when it benefits you.



The internet has different rules of social etiquette than meatspace.

You'll find this to be true in various sub-settings within meatspace too.

If you ever venture out there.


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## Batty Krueger (Apr 22, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> Only for halloween. :V
> 
> If you do wear your suit everyday, make sure you talk like a mouthbreather and have your face ridden with zits and speak of how furry is the same as being black.


Gasp, I've been doing furry wrong that last decade and a half!  Must rub hot pockets on face


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## Mentova (Apr 22, 2013)

d.batty said:


> Gasp, I've been doing furry wrong that last decade and a half!  Must rub hot pockets on face



Share some with me!


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## Batty Krueger (Apr 22, 2013)

Here ya go!
Careful, they are somehow lava hot and icy cold at the same time


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## Shay Feral (Apr 22, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> The internet has different rules of social etiquette than meatspace.
> 
> You'll find this to be true in various sub-settings within meatspace too.
> 
> If you ever venture out there.



What you'll also find is that within these areas is a general sense of social consistency, which is what is lacking here; consistency. The general response in this thread from people who desire others to be tactful about their perversions, have failed to be tactful in the presentation of their differing opinion. Which begs the question, do these people really desire _tact_? Or is it a word they just discovered and only partially understand the definition of the word and what it means to be tactful.

Now that they've been called out on it, their reactions, including your own; indicated that they believe that they are exempt from practicing what they teach just because the avenue in which they choose to express their desire for _tact_ to be different. There is a word for this, it's called hypocrisy. Hence "Tact, but only when it benefits you."


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## mapdark (Apr 22, 2013)

This thread has derailed so much that the train is now in the pacific ocean.


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## Ricky (Apr 22, 2013)

Shay Feral said:


> I see, tact; but only when it benefits you.



See, it's people like you who don't understand there's a difference that cause 99% of the problem. People are shut-ins and once they get into the real world they don't understand there's a certain way you should act, that's different than online etiquette (or lack thereof).

You should keep being delusional though, and just act the same everywhere.


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## Calemeyr (Apr 22, 2013)

I desire tact in avatar choice :V (Kidding, avatars are supposed to be funny, sometimes)

Why is it that whenever anyone criticizes weird mainsite perversions and how we don't like seeing them in public, (or in extreme cases on our website, ie cub), people come out of the woodwork bawwing and clawing at those "meanie trolls"? Does public perversion really mean that much to these people (You know who, the people who bitch in the site discussion and AUP&TOS subforums)?

I'm not calling on everyone to act like a puritan here, but we have some standards. There are many different levels of tact. Calling something stupid is kinda rude, yes, but it's not at the same level as talking about how you like looking at baby animal rape-fantasy art. So when we call for tact, we're not acting like the FCC going after Carlin. We're like people calling out the guy jerking it in the theater.
Don't conflate the two. It's like saying burping in public is as offensive as wearing blackface in public.

E: I gotta go now. You people play nice, okay?


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## Shay Feral (Apr 22, 2013)

Ricky said:


> See, it's people like you who don't understand there's a difference that cause 99% of the problem. People are shut-ins and once they get into the real world they don't understand there's a certain way you should act, that's different than online etiquette (or lack thereof).
> 
> You should keep being delusional though, and just act the same everywhere.



Reverting to insults?

You're using "it's the internet" as a weak excuse to exclude yourself from your very own demands of tact, the fact that we're conversing over the internet has no bearings on this conversation; in the way we're employing the use of the internet at this very moment is as a medium of communication. In this instance "the internet" on it's own volition does not excuse your behavior from this argument.


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## ArielMT (Apr 22, 2013)

mapdark said:


> This thread has derailed so much that the train is now in the pacific ocean.



I agree, and I'm closing the thread for that reason.


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