# The Banning is Arbitrary and Random and this is why



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

I posted this originally as a reply to the 'Clarification on Sonic/underage' topic, and was deleted because it was considered off-topic. Okay, but I suppose it's not off-topic for the 'site discussion' board, is it? :3

So here it is. Check the other thread to know what I mean:

I'm sorry, Pinkuh and all the FA staff, but for what you say here and on  the TOS you guys are going to apply all of this in a very arbitrary and  unsafe way, because, for one, pulling the 'ferals' off the ban is not  going to stop Alertpay from seeing them still as cub porn. Pick any,  let's say, Pikachu, or a Calumon, or a Terriermon, an Eevee, a Simba, a Kiara, a Koda...

The problem I see here is not /your/ point of view on things as furries  with an open mind. I mean: if you're doing this to prevent AP or other  non-furries rage, this is not going to work, thus, you'll have to extend  that ban to everything that a 'normal person' would consider borderline  or off-limits. And that would include /anything/ having to do with  feral sex that is not 'regular mating' (and even regular mating would be  icky for most of them), and anything including 'videogames for kids'.

I don't want to point my finger at several of the drawings that were  asked about in this thread and that you, Pikuh, as an admin, gave the  thumbs up, because this is all so relative. I could see some of those  drawings portraying lolis, not fully grown women. Genital Maturity  begins with puberty, and it's very difficult to tell apart from a 14yo  sexual genitals to a 18yo, and much more difficult to tell apart from a  17 to a 18.

Thus, to be safe, they'd need to look more 'manly' or 'womanly', to be  clear that the portrayed drawings are in their 20's or 30's to consider  them fully delevoped.

That'd mean that any 'cuntboy' should be banned as well, or girly boys.

My point is that this is art, for God's sakes. And legality in your  country doesn't ban cub porn, so why do you want to set limits that your  Law doesn't impose to you? Because of Alertpay? That's just a bunch of  nonesense. AP or other providors won't like a /wide range/ of things.  What AP said it's cub porn is not the 'cub porn' Dragoneer or FA's new  rules are suggesting. Cub porn for those 'out of the furry' is almost  anything that is small and shows a dick (or shown in a sexual  situation). So leaving the ferals, pokemon, digimon, 'chibis' and such  is not going to raise the ban AP set to FA.

The solution is just finding another payment providor, anywhere in the  world. Sofurry is doing it, Inkbunny has almost got it too. FA decided  to opt for banning what /you/ (the administration) consider is cub porn,  from a subjective point of view that 'casually' coincides with most of  'cub porn haters' opinion. You want to please a part of the fandom that  you feel more identified with, instead of standing for the 'totally  freedom of artistic expression' FA had from the beginning until now.

These are my two cents on the matter. The Sonic, Pokemon and Digimon  banning made more sense to me than what you're clarifying now here on  this thread. Now my 'conspiracy theory' that the AP is just a lame  excuse to ban cubporn because FA admins don't like it or they are being  pressure by a very loudly yelling group of furs sounds like a much more  reasonable reason in my ears right now.

I suppose you'll consider this off-topic, so sorry for throwing it in  here, but at least I wanted you (the admins) to hear it, not because  it's me saying it, I'm just voicing the opinion of many furs here.


----------



## 9_6 (Dec 6, 2010)

Everything is a potential "cub".
Seriously.
Did you take a look at cartoons?
Big heads, big eyes, that scheme can be found EVERYWHERE and almost everyone adopts it.

Hell, look no further than your signature.

But we established that on day 1 already so...


----------



## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm sorry you're so crushed by all of this, maybe if you didn't draw porn of children you wouldn't have been so upset by the policy changes.

And yes, it is arbitrary, because *that's how moderating works*.


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

Look, all your whining isn't going to make any difference. Any of you. This is the same thing you lot have been moaning on at since it was announced. This is nothing new, and you're just going on and on about slippery slope.

"Oh, but if they know they can get you to ban one thing, they'll just want other stuff banned."

Bollocks.

Alertpay has no big vendetta against furries. Child porn and depictions of children in mature situations is against their AUP. And everyone elses. That is it. It's not a conspiracy. It's a company trying to avoid potential litigation at a later stage.

So stop with these boring and pointless threads and moans, because it's just getting annoying, and it's not going to change anything. Go back to Chemtrails and the Illuminati.


----------



## Summercat (Dec 6, 2010)

Salmy, you're a few days late for this to be fresh input.


----------



## Pinkuh (Dec 6, 2010)

I need to reiterate apparently that this is not a moral decision. It hasn't been from the get-go. So it being legal or illegal wherever has absolutely no bearing on this at all what-so-ever.


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

No, actually, the OP is completely right.

Who needs FA to remain funded? All we need is cub porn to get by.


----------



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> I'm sorry you're so crushed by all of this, maybe if you didn't draw porn of children you wouldn't have been so upset by the policy changes


 


Dragoneer said:


> (......)
> [*]  Fur Affinity strives to allow users freedom of expression where   possible, but asks users refrain from making comments, journals,   statements or posting material which is racist, bigoted, defamatory,   otherwise offensive towards any particular sexuality, philosophy,   religion, illegal gambling (raffles, games of chance) or content   alluding to illegal activity or child pornography. Disruptive behavior   meant to interfere with the normal flow of the community will not be   tolerated, and we frown upon mob tactics and organized harassment.   Comments which are overly aggressive, personally insulting or abusive   are prohibited.


 
Why is this Xenxe guy still not banned? xD



Smelge said:


> Alertpay has no big vendetta against furries.  Child porn and depictions of children in mature situations is against  their AUP. And everyone elses. That is it. It's not a conspiracy. It's a  company trying to avoid potential litigation at a later stage.


 
Says who? You? You know what AP or other non-furry sites or persons could consider cub or not? Why are you so sure that if they see a Pikachu or a Simba in a sexual drawing they're going to be OK with it?



Pinkuh said:


> I need to reiterate apparently that this is not a  moral decision. It hasn't been from the get-go. So it being legal or  illegal wherever has absolutely no bearing on this at all  what-so-ever.



Then what kind of decision is it? Monetary? Then again, it's a bad decision because if after the semi-banning AP stays on their position of not releasing the funds, you guys will have got nothing, you'll have to keep on banning things until AP is happy. That's my point :S


----------



## Pinkuh (Dec 6, 2010)

Smelge said:


> No, actually, the OP is completely right.
> 
> Who needs FA to remain funded? All we need is cub porn to get by.


 
Damn really? If only we had known this at the beginning!


----------



## Nemo (Dec 6, 2010)

Oh god not this shit again

Lets see a show of hands, who in this raging debate is actually trying to do anything but prove who can be the most outraged?


----------



## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> Why is this Xenxe guy still not banned? xD


 
Because when I'm mad it's usually because people keep trying to pull the shame shit for a whole week when there is:

1) No discussion. This is a dictatorship.
2) Nothing new to add since the first day of posting.
3) People seem to think that sites run off of sunshine, butts, and rainbows.

And why can no one spell my name right?

Also, what you quoted is Mainsite rules, not forum rules.


----------



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

Pinkuh said:


> Damn really? If only we had known this at the beginning!


 
You can be all the ironic you want, guys, but if the site is based off donations and the top-notch donators are the ones either cub-lovers or cub-haters then my point is still correct: This banning is more because of the later than Alertpay. Just want the truth here :3

FA needs to get funded, yep, but if the top donors are enraged by the new policy, the site is gonna lose its funds, thus die.

BUT if the 'payers' say 'off with cub porn, and I'll define what cub porn is', then guess who's got the power here and what's the true reason of the banning?


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> Says who? You? You know what AP or other non-furry sites or persons could consider cub or not? Why are you so sure that if they see a Pikachu or a Simba in a sexual drawing they're going to be OK with it?


Says common fucking sense. They cited ToS breaches relating to cub porn as the reason for shutting down FA's AP account. That is it. All you are doing, is trying to justify reasons why the offending material should be kept. You are being incredibly fucking selfish by going on about how FA should ignore the thing that has caused most payment providers to turn them down. Why yes, let's make a stand right here. Let's cancel the cub porn ban, and then enjoy FA running out of funds in a few months, because fuck every other user who doesn't like cub porn.



> Then what kind of decision is it? Monetary? Then again, it's a bad decision because if after the semi-banning AP stays on their position of not releasing the funds, you guys will have got nothing, you'll have to keep on banning things until AP is happy. That's my point :S



Alertpay is releasing the funds. 3 months from account termination. If you're going to make wild accusations and self-righteous claims, back your shit up with actual evidence, instead of ignoring what has been stated many times.

If it looks like a child getting reamed, it's going to be considered child porn. Deal with it.

Here, why don't you go and rent yourself some webspace, get yourself a payment provider, and have your very own cub porn site. See how long that lasts before your ISP or provider shuts you down, and your payment processor tells you to get fucked.



Pinkuh said:


> Damn really? If only we had known this at the beginning!


 
Yes. FA can run entirely on dreams and rainbows and child-dickings. Apparently. If you would like more ifromation, please refer to the OP. He seems to have some fantastic ideas on how to materialise money from thin air.


----------



## Summercat (Dec 6, 2010)

Pinkuh said:


> Damn really? If only we had known this at the beginning!


 
I tried to tell you guys, but nobody listens to me after that one time I got totally smashed and I went off explaining how smooth gay otter sex was more efficient than rough gay wolf sex at power generation per coupling, and pointed to the San Franciscan studies to prove it.


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> the top-notch donators are the ones either cub-lovers or cub-haters then my point is still correct: This banning is more because of the later than Alertpay. Just want the truth here :3


PROVE IT.



> FA needs to get funded, yep, but if the top donors are enraged by the new policy, the site is gonna lose its funds, thus die.


Instead of having no way at all to get donations, and thus die quicker.



> BUT if the 'payers' say 'off with cub porn, and I'll define what cub porn is', then guess who's got the power here and what's the true reason of the banning?


 It is not a conspiracy, it is a company protecting themselves from litigation or lawsuits. If a site gets taken down for child porn, the company allowing them to get their funding will come under expensive scrutiny. They are not hating on furries, though given people like you, I'm not sure why not.


----------



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Because when I'm mad it's usually because people keep trying to pull the shame shit for a whole week when there is:



And who cares if you're mad? xD Rules are rules. There's no 'But I'm mad!!' exception to those rules that I see xD



Xenke said:


> And why can no one spell my name right?



Cuz it's weird



Xenke said:


> Also, what you quoted is Mainsite rules, not forum rules.


 
True, I'll give you that, but I can't find the forum's rules for dear life xD


----------



## Pinkuh (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> You can be all the ironic you want, guys, but if the site is based off donations and the top-notch donators are the ones either cub-lovers or cub-haters then my point is still correct: This banning is more because of the later than Alertpay. Just want the truth here :3
> 
> FA needs to get funded, yep, but if the top donors are enraged by the new policy, the site is gonna lose its funds, thus die.
> 
> BUT if the 'payers' say 'off with cub porn, and I'll define what cub porn is', then guess who's got the power here and what's the true reason of the banning?


 
The banning is becuase before we went to Alert pay we had the same issue at every single monitary service we applied for. From Amazon to Paypal (who don't let you deal with adult ANYTHING). It has been a running Theam and we thought that Alert pay was good with it. They weren't. 

So we had two choices. Ban Cub porn and be able to pick up a Donation service that wont kick us out the door. Or Don't ban it and be gone within two months becuase no service provider would pick us up due to the content. 

Loosing some donations over this is ALLOT better then loosing all, which is the choice we were faced with. If people that donated before don't want to, that's their prerogative. By the same token we will probably jump a little in the opposite direction becuase there are people that probably WOULD have donated to our site in the first place if the content on it had been more in line with what they personally enjoyed. 

there is always downsides and upsides to every decision. And the upside in this one is keeping FA going, which is personally what I am going for.


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

Of course, could this whole pointless and arbitrary thread of yours have something to do with the fact that every single one of your submissions is now not allowed on the site?


----------



## 9_6 (Dec 6, 2010)

I don't think anyone at AP actually spends time browsing porn at a freaking furry art site. Come on.
All that is needed is to have the rule and proof that it is being enforced so dragoneer can say "nope, that's banned now, we don't have that" and get munies.
Mass-banning everything in existence is not the point here.


----------



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

Smelge said:


> PROVE IT.



Only time will prove it, my friend, that's why it's a conspiracy theory :3



Smelge said:


> Instead of having no way at all to get donations, and thus die quicker.



PLEASE!! xDDDD

How can you think that me or anybody else with two neurones in their brain will buy that? 

People: send me money via snail mail, paypal to /this/ address, this is my bank account, I'll go to your home to get a check....

You really think there are no more ways in the world for individual #1 to pay to individual #2 that are not Alertpay? xD


----------



## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> And who cares if you're mad? xD Rules are rules. There's no 'But I'm mad!!' exception to those rules that I see xD


 
No one cares if I'm mad, it's just at this point a LOT of people share the same sentiment. We don't really appreciate people making wild assumptions simply because they haven't read up on anything that's been happening or any of the arguments that have been posed.

Go back to drawing your child porn. You're much better at that then figuring out how this site works.


----------



## Alstor (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> The solution is just finding another payment providor, anywhere in the  world. Sofurry is doing it, Inkbunny has almost got it too. FA decided  to opt for banning what /you/ (the administration) consider is cub porn,  from a subjective point of view that 'casually' coincides with most of  'cub porn haters' opinion. You want to please a part of the fandom that  you feel more identified with, instead of standing for the 'totally  freedom of artistic expression' FA had from the beginning until now.


 Out of everything, this pisses me off the most. As it was said at least 20 times in the cub announcement, all of the other service providers denied them with the "And don't come back!" policy.

And yes, they can decide what's cub porn and what's not. Why? Because it's their company and they can. You have no freedoms when you cross into their company. They can do whatever they want without your or anyone else's opinion.

Where the hell did you get the "mods are cub porn haters" aspect? Neer and Pinkuh defended cub porn for years until they couldn't anymore, which was when their treasury was threatened. Just because they /had/ to ban cub porn and such doesn't mean that they hate it. It means that they had to give into the government. And where do you complain from there? Certainly not here.

I don't know if you noticed in the past, but there are people on the staff that would love for a site with complete artistic freedom and expression (ex. Pinkuh.) But we don't live in a happy, fun hugbox. We live in a world that has laws to protect everyone from humanity's dangers. And one of these laws, in Alertpay's Canada and other places, does not allow for sexual acts to be taken that involve minors, even if they aren't real. They didn't do it to fit in; they didn't do it to please a part of the fandom. They did it to save their asses.


----------



## Pinkuh (Dec 6, 2010)

Alstor said:


> Out of everything, this pisses me off the most. As it was said at least 20 times in the cub announcement, all of the other service providers denied them with the "And don't come back!" policy.
> 
> And yes, they can decide what's cub porn and what's not. Why? Because it's their company and they can. You have no freedoms when you cross into their company. They can do whatever they want without your or anyone else's opinion.
> 
> ...



If I had a million dollars.... none of this would be an issue


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> How can you think that me or anybody else with two neurones in their brain will buy that?


I was trying to avoid going in to what is slopping around inside your skull, but oh well...



> People: send me money via snail mail, paypal to /this/ address, this is my bank account, I'll go to your home to get a check....
> 
> You really think there are no more ways in the world for individual #1 to pay to individual #2 that are not Alertpay? xD


 Ah yes. Of course. People could send cheques. That would work. Until the bank has a look at the businessa ccount. because they have to, you know. Oh look, it's a website account. Fine, but wait, child porn? Rejected, also FBI. Enjoy. But I guess it's fine, because everyone knows cheques, once delivered, magically explode into real money, so who needs a bank?

Or, they could use another internet payment provider. Oh, but wait, they all have anti child-porn rules to. Well, fuck. Let's just all send envelopes stuffed with notes to FA instead. I can't see anything going wrong there. Why, then Dragoneer can post a large box full of notes to the server provider. That'll be fun.


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

I find this interesting.

The OP has a journal up at the moment, with this:


			
				Salmy said:
			
		

> Do you know that together with the 'cub' ban, a lot more of art is being  banned from here, like Sonic, TMNT, and prolly soon Pokemon and  Digimon?


...and goes on to promote a script he wrote to mass transfer submissions from FA to IB.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but none of the things other then the cub porn, and note that he just says cub, generally, are actually being banned. But it pays to make sure people are worried and more likely to publicise his tool. Why exactly is the OP making such a huge fuss when he's encouraging everyone to up sticks and leave?


----------



## Schayfer (Dec 6, 2010)

I think this is a very simple thing. I'll qualify this as saying, I can understand the cub art ban, and I can't say I'll be that sad to see the pictures gone. The Sonic thing is kind of silly to me, but FA has to do what's best for them. They are a privately run website and they do not have to worry about your "rights", feelings, wants or hopes. They can take them into account, but what really matters is doing what they have to do to keep going for the site to keep running. 

If you don't like the bans and restrictions. That's fine. You are entitled to think that. You can voice concern, and hopefully in a respectful and constructive manner, but in the end you have to understand that the decision is not yours. If you do not agree, then move to a different site. As with any business, if you do not like the product you move on to one that fits you better. But to continuously complain, bitch, and moan about it really isn't going to solve anything. 

If there are truly so many of you, then it may hurt FA that all of you leave, but chances are there are not and both parties will move on. 

That's my two cents.


----------



## Smelge (Dec 6, 2010)

Schayfer said:


> I think this is a very simple thing. I'll qualify this as saying, I can understand the cub art ban, and I can't say I'll be that sad to see the pictures gone. The Sonic thing is kind of silly to me, but FA has to do what's best for them. They are a privately run website and they do not have to worry about your "rights", feelings, wants or hopes. They can take them into account, but what really matters is doing what they have to do to keep going for the site to keep running.
> 
> If you don't like the bans and restrictions. That's fine. You are entitled to think that. You can voice concern, and hopefully in a respectful and constructive manner, but in the end you have to understand that the decision is not yours. If you do not agree, then move to a different site. As with any business, if you do not like the product you move on to one that fits you better. But to continuously complain, bitch, and moan about it really isn't going to solve anything.
> 
> ...


 
There are not so many of them. Every time cub porn has come up on the forum in the past, there's been more people calling to get rid of it than standing up for it. All this is, is an empty threat to hit FA where it hurts, claiming that vast swathes of it's users will leave, and all the donors will stop donating because they all love cub porn. It's all a really shitty attempt at blackmail.

And thank you for actually posting something constructive. Usually people join to scream ill-informed crap. Thank you for actually having an opinion that is informed and not completely hysterically retarded.


----------



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

Oy, I really dunno why people will only see what they wanna see. oh! Actually that's my point about what AP could consider cub porn, but okay, responding:



Smelge said:


> Says common fucking sense. They cited ToS breaches relating to cub porn as the reason for shutting down FA's AP account. That is it. All you are doing, is trying to justify reasons why the offending material should be kept. You are being incredibly fucking selfish by going on about how FA should ignore the thing that has caused most payment providers to turn them down. Why yes, let's make a stand right here. Let's cancel the cub porn ban, and then enjoy FA running out of funds in a few months, because fuck every other user who doesn't like cub porn.



My good sir, I'm trying to leave my own tastes and likings off this thread. I didn't come here to say 'cub porn is cool!' or 'I love it!' so I'd like people to stop saying the opposite. This is not my point here. What I basically want to know is the truth behind all of this, OR finally make sense in my little brain.

That said, FA runs on donations and ads. Each ad is $20 and there are 12-20 donators per month. Do you honestly think it's so hard to ask all of those people to please change the way they give their money to FA?



Smelge said:


> Alertpay is releasing the funds. 3 months from account termination. If you're going to make wild accusations and self-righteous claims, back your shit up with actual evidence, instead of ignoring what has been stated many times.



I had never seen that statement, Smelge. Why are you so angry towards me? This is not anything personal, you know. Why don't you stop attacking me? I just want to have things clear and I'm not /claiming/ anything, just throwing out theories, plausible explanations to what's going on.

So AP is going to release the funds in 3 months? Yes or yes? With ban or without ban? Or after the ban and after they review the site? Could you please quote where you saw what you're stating?



Smelge said:


> If it looks like a child getting reamed, it's going to be considered child porn. Deal with it.



That's my point, really! xD If something even remotely ressembles a child in their wyes, they're going to consider it child porn.



Smelge said:


> Here, why don't you go and rent yourself some webspace, get yourself a payment provider, and have your very own cub porn site. See how long that lasts before your ISP or provider shuts you down, and your payment processor tells you to get fucked.



Because, my sir, I actually already own an ISP :3 But this is not the point! I didn't start this thread because I wanted /another/ debate cub ban yes/no, just to clarify the reasons behind it cuz... I don't buy them!



Smelge said:


> Of course, could this whole pointless and arbitrary thread of yours have  something to do with the fact that every single one of your submissions  is now not allowed on the site?



You really don't want anybody to focus on my OP, but on the fact that I'm an evil pedo just for liking a kind of art. Okay, I see that, but if you see my gallery I only removed part of it (10%?), and there was nothing anybody here could consider cub porn, but I removed it anyway because my fursona is 16, and thus, minor, and thus, against the rules, and I like to follow the rules wherever I go (or leave). I could have easily said that Salmy is 18 and there would have been no problem, but know what? I'm not ashamed of this. I'm not doing anything illegal here (Spain) or even in USA. But if it's the site's rules, of course I'll pull it off!


----------



## Browder (Dec 6, 2010)

FAF is not a country. Trying to hold it to any 'moral' standard is inappropriate regardless of what you believe. This is a legal and monetary thing. En of story. Feel lucky that the service providers seem to like its user base.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

salmy said:


> That's my point, really! xD If something even remotely ressembles a child in their wyes, they're going to consider it child porn.


 
Oh my fucking god, you actually understand this.

Now just realize that this is the only sane way to moderate the site and you'll be on your way to realizing how things work.


----------



## 9_6 (Dec 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> ...if you didn't draw porn of children...


 
Would someone kindly inform this brat that this shit is against the TOS and enforce it already?
I don't ever want to hear the words "child" in combination with "porn" in connection to this subject again.
Just do a freaking word search for "pedophilia" & co and roflstomp all posts containing it.
It is that. fucking. simple. and there would be so much less threadcrapping.

Christ.


----------



## salmy (Dec 6, 2010)

Xenke said:


> Go back to drawing your child porn. You're much better at that then figuring out how this site works.


 
STOP saying it's child porn because it's not. Cub is not child. Law says so. If you think otherwise, you're being unrespectful and offensive to me and many others and you shouldn't be allowed to speak in a free forum if all what you're going to do is to insult people that don't think like you.

And if you only cared about who you're insulting, you'd know that I can't draw to save my life. I only like art, fav it, sometimes commission it, sometime get gifts.

I'm just tired of seeing how mods here will just people freely insult and bash others without any kind of warning and much less a comsequence.


----------



## Xenke (Dec 6, 2010)

9_6 said:


> Would someone kindly inform this brat that this shit is against the TOS and enforce it already?
> I don't ever want to hear the words "child" in combination with "porn" in connection to this subject again.
> Just do a freaking word search for "pedophilia" & co and roflstomp all posts containing it.
> It is that. fucking. simple. and there would be so much less threadcrapping.
> ...


 
Hello again 9_6.

I'm just alluding to the fact that he draws fuzzy furry children in sexual situations.


----------



## Pinkuh (Dec 6, 2010)

Closing this thread. Already answered the question.


----------

