# Deadly Shooting at WI Sikh Temple



## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

During my lunch break today, CBS' broadcast of the *gripping *PGA 2012 was interrupted with this breaking news
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57486965/shooting-at-sikh-temple-in-wis-at-least-7-dead/
Personally, I want to know more about the gunman himself. 
I could understand the motivation behind gunning down a _mosque, _but assaulting a_ *gurdwara*? _What did Sikhs ever do? It's one of the religions _least_ responsible for all of the problems in the world. It's most likely some hick with an itchy trigger finger and Jeebus on the brain thinking it was killing 'towelheads' for 'Murrika, but the shooting happened just today so information is sketchy.
Thoughts, FAF? I know we have some Wisconsin furries in here.


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## Judge Spear (Aug 5, 2012)

Fuck is this, a fad? I'd ask what's next to get riddled, but I live next to an Air Force base.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> I could understand the motivation behind gunning down a _mosque_*....
> *It's most likely some hick with an itchy trigger finger and Jeebus on the brain


Oh boy here we go.


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## Judge Spear (Aug 5, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Oh boy here we go.



That kinda struck me too, but I'm giving this thread a chance. I'm just focusing on the fact there's yet another odd shooting this early after Aurora.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Oh boy here we go.


Do you have any suggestions for a demographic that is_ more _likely to do things like this? 
Did you not read the part where I said "Information is sketchy?"
And if you really want my complete and honest feelings, I hope that the shooter was connected to WBC or a similar organization.


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## Attaman (Aug 5, 2012)

Shooter was confirmed as a caucasian male in 30's, if I recall right, and police are on the lookout for a red pick-up truck as supposedly they were dropped off.

Motivation for the attack is unknown. However, that section of Wisconsin has apparently been known to have "revenge" attacks against Sikhs (four of them between 9/11/01 and late-2002 alone), so while it's _not_ in any way implied yet it's similar not as though such a thing would be out of the blue.

A speedy recovery to those who were injured, my sympathies to the families of those who lost loved ones, and my thanks toward the police officer who took several bullets to be certain that the suspect was stopped.


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## Project H311H0UND (Aug 5, 2012)

Oh boy. Just what I wanted to hear. Another shooting.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Do you have any suggestions for a demographic that is_ more _likely to do things like this?


The problem is that you are implying that christians are inclined to go on shooting sprees.

But as Attaman suggested it might be someone who did the shooting in response to 9/11.  Even though it was a decade ago, there's still many people upset about it.


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 5, 2012)

Oh, religion.


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## Percy (Aug 5, 2012)

Heard this on the radio, on the news... at least the gunman was shot dead from what I've heard.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> I could understand the motivation behind gunning down a _mosque, _but assaulting a_ *gurdwara*? _What did Sikhs ever do? It's one of the religions _least_ responsible for all of the problems in the world. It's most likely some hick with an itchy trigger finger and Jeebus on the brain thinking it was killing 'towelheads' for 'Murrika, but the shooting happened just today so information is sketchy.


Have you seen Sleeper Cell?

In one scene the main character, a black Muslim working for the FBI to infiltrate a sleeper cell, witnesses in the subway how a bunch of proles harass a Sikh 'cause they think he's one of "them murrica-hating towelheads" before he intervenes. He then goes on to note how there was actually Islamic hostility against the Sikhs.

I think that's exactly what happened here, another case of conflation.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

Percy said:


> Heard this on the radio, on the news... at least the gunman was shot dead from what I've heard.


I guess :/ 
You can't question a corpse, though.


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## Percy (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> I guess :/
> You can't question a corpse, though.



I'm guessing he was just as crazy as the Aurora shooter. Maybe even crazier, it being a religious establishment.
But true. It'd be nice to know what motivated the guy to do such a hateful thing.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 5, 2012)

I have no idea why someone would want to shoot up a gurdwara...people have suggested they were mistaken for a mosque and the hatred for 9/11 brewed, but honestly 11 years later? I have my doubts.


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## Elim Garak (Aug 5, 2012)

Maybe this guy confused Muslims with Sikhs, since some Sikhs wear turbins as well. It's not the first time people confused them.


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## Percy (Aug 5, 2012)

Elim Garak said:


> Maybe this guy confused Muslims with Sikhs, since some Sikhs wear turbins as well. It's not the first time people confused them.



That's what my dad mentioned. It could very well have been the case.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

Elim Garak said:


> Maybe this guy confused Muslims with Sikhs, since some Sikhs wear turbins as well. It's not the first time people confused them.


Uhh, I don't think you're going to find a Muslim in America wearing a turban. It would be virtual suicide to be a walking stereotype and not related to religion anyway-- devout Muslim males will wear a kind of woven skullcap. Sikhs wear a distinctive blue turban with a 'v' fold in the front.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 5, 2012)

Elim Garak said:


> Maybe this guy confused Muslims with Sikhs, since some Sikhs wear turbins as well. It's not the first time people confused them.


Exactly.

Most likely a wingnut that thought they were some kind of Muslims suddenly releasing his pent-up hatred after his girlfriend left him, he got fired or whatever.

E.:



Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Uhh, I don't think you're going to find a  Muslim in America wearing a turban. It would be virtual suicide to be a  walking stereotype and not related to religion anyway-- devout Muslim  males will wear a kind of woven skullcap. Sikhs wear a distinctive blue  turban with a 'v' fold in the front.


Problem is, Red State Fascists know only the stereotype...


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## Judge Spear (Aug 5, 2012)

Elim Garak said:


> Maybe this guy confused Muslims with Sikhs, since some Sikhs wear turbins as well. It's not the first time people confused them.



Confuddled or not, no excuse to take innocent lives. Not saying you're siding with him.


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## Percy (Aug 5, 2012)

Pachi-O said:


> Confuddled or not, no excuse to take innocent lives. Not saying you're siding with him.



Agreed. If you think so badly of a group of people as the shooter, you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun in the first place.


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## mrfoxwily (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> It's most likely some hick with an itchy trigger finger and Jeebus on the brain thinking it was killing 'towelheads' for 'Murrika, but the shooting happened just today so information is sketchy.



You bitch about bigots and you say shit like that?


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

mrfoxwily said:


> You bitch about bigots and you say shit like that?


Should I even grace this with a serious answer? The current evidence _suggests_ ('suggests' being key)this type of killer. If you have any better ideas, you have my attention.


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## mrfoxwily (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Should I even grace this with a serious answer? The current evidence _suggests_ ('suggests' being key)this type of killer. If you have any better ideas, you have my attention.



I have an idea. Wait until they release information on the suspect before assuming things.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

mrfoxwily said:


> I have an idea. Wait until they release information on the suspect before assuming things.


'A white male in his 30's , dropped off by a red pickup truck'
(Thanks Attaman)
It may be a guess, but it's not at all farfetched.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> 'A white male in his 30's , dropped off by a red pickup truck'
> Thanks Attaman


^Your stereotyping makes this deliciously ironic.

If you were right then every white guy who owns a pickup truck would automatically be christian.


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## mrfoxwily (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> 'A white male in his 30's , dropped off by a red pickup truck'
> (Thanks Attaman)
> It may be a guess, but it's not at all farfetched.



Making assumptions like that can be rather insulting.


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## Attaman (Aug 5, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> 'A white male in his 30's , dropped off by a red pickup truck'
> (Thanks Attaman)
> It may be a guess, but it's not at all farfetched.


Latest report suggests 40's, but that was seemingly from a leak. Investigators are trying to keep a blackout on information so that if there is more to this than meets the eye, there isn't much in the way of forewarning as to how much they know. It was implied he has no connections to any major terrorist cells or white supremacy movement, but we really don't have much to work on.

That truck thing still hasn't had anything really commented on it. Whether it was conflicting reports, or there was indeed an accomplice, is so far up in the air.

There's pretty much nothing to work with ATM, just sympathy to give those who're injured / lost loved ones.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 5, 2012)

Relevant.



mrfoxwily said:


> You bitch about bigots and you say shit like that?


Wonder what you will say if it turns out it was a hick, Jesusfreak or both.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 5, 2012)

Attaman is being the most reasonable person in this thread so far.


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## mrfoxwily (Aug 5, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> Relevant.
> 
> 
> Wonder what you will say if it turns out it was a hick, Jesusfreak or both.



Quite honestly, nothing. Does the assumption being correct in the end justify it?


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## Dreaming (Aug 5, 2012)

Percy said:


> I'm guessing he was just as crazy as the Aurora shooter. Maybe even crazier, it being a religious establishment.
> But true. It'd be nice to know what motivated the guy to do such a hateful thing.


They could ask the guys who dropped him off, if it turns out he was assisted.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

mrfoxwily said:


> Quite honestly, nothing. Does the assumption being correct in the end justify it?


After enough positives in very similar situations, it can to a point.


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## Percy (Aug 5, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> They could ask the guys who dropped him off, if it turns out he was assisted.



Even if he was assisted, it'd probably take quite some time until somebody confesses what the motive is.
Hopefully the investigators can figure it out.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 5, 2012)

Percy said:


> Even if he was assisted, it'd probably take quite some time until somebody confesses what the motive is.
> Hopefully the investigators can figure it out.


I should hope so, but it doesn't help that their best lead is a stiff now.


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## Neoi (Aug 5, 2012)

The shootings are getting fucking ridiculous. There has been 5 or so mass shootings in the course of a month. Im starting to think this is a cult or something. Being religious I can understand what the people are feeling, your suppose to feel safe in a church not see friends and family get killed.                                                                                                                                                             



Pachi-O said:


> Fuck is this, a fad? I'd ask what's next to get riddled, but I live next to an Air Force base.



I live near an airbase too  Are you Canadian by any chance?


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## Ad Hoc (Aug 5, 2012)

I was 15 miles away from this at SEWERfest today. I saw the armored cars go by. Didn't know what was up until later--we stopped into a little cafe afterward and it was all over the news. Ride home was pretty somber.

 Don't really have much I want to add right now other than hopes for the victims, and also that I don't think it will be too long before we find out the motive. They'll go through his belongings and internet history. If he's a Stormfront type, there will be signs.


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## Percy (Aug 5, 2012)

Neoi said:


> The shootings are getting fucking ridiculous. There has been 5 or so mass shootings in the course of a month. Im starting to think this is a cult or something. Being religious I can understand what the people are feeling, your suppose to feel safe in a church not see friends and family get killed.



The unfortunate truth is, there isn't much anywhere that is considered 100% safe. And these crazy fuckers can strike anywhere.

I damn sure hope the shooter rots in hell, and I'm not even religious.


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## zachhart12 (Aug 5, 2012)

Neoi said:


> There has been 5 or so mass shootings in the course of a month.



5?  Did I miss 3?


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## triage (Aug 5, 2012)

this is getting ridiculous


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## Attaman (Aug 5, 2012)

Ruethel said:


> â€œTwo things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.â€
> â€• Albert Einstein


 This is only a (horrific / tragic) case of stupidity if the gunman was going for the Sikhs thinking they were Muslims / "Close Enough". Otherwise, it remains a general case of "horrific tragedy".


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## Attaman (Aug 5, 2012)

Ruethel said:


> All human (purposefully) caused tragedy is based in human stupidity,


 Humans killing other humans is not human stupidity, any more than a dog killing another dog is canine stupidity. It remains a tragedy, but does not become "stupidity" merely because one human took another human's life. This is not to say human-killing-human incidents cannot be caused by human stupidity (ex: Look at some of the Darwin Awards), but to attempt to write it off in this fashion...


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## Llamapotamus (Aug 5, 2012)

I can't help but think all of this shooting spree nonsense is a huge PR debacle for the NRA...

Just read up on it, and my assumption wasn't far off.


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## AshleyAshes (Aug 6, 2012)

I can't find any articles that say that the police a searching *for* a red truck, only that they are searching a red truck.  As in it's there, in the parking lot, and they are looking through it.

So let this failure in reading comprehension end as well as any discussion about the possibility that the gunman *carpooled*.


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## Hinalle K. (Aug 6, 2012)

What's a Sikh again? Some kind of Indian religion?
Never heard of it before this


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## moonchylde (Aug 6, 2012)

Call me racist if you want, but this just screams Christian Identity Movement member goes bonkers.


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## Percy (Aug 6, 2012)

Hinalle K. said:


> What's a Sikh again? Some kind of Indian religion?
> Never heard of it before this



Yeah, it's a Punjab-based religion. Much different from Hinduism.


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## Zerig (Aug 6, 2012)

Damnit, I was going to try and post an extremely offensive comment to rile some people up, then this started playing and I felt awful. Now my night is ruined. I hate this thread.


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## Rilvor (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm not entirely sure what to think on this. It is shameful and saddening, and I suppose that sums it up. Everything else would be naught but useless conjecture.

That being said, I also do not like to see people stirring these events into "The world is falling apart violence is everywhere!". This is just absurd and callous to what is happening in front of you.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 6, 2012)

Project H311H0UND said:


> Oh boy. Just what I wanted to hear. Another shooting.



At this rate, "Mass shooting of innocents in USA" will be about as newsworthy as "Dog bites man"...


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## greg-the-fox (Aug 6, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> At this rate, "Mass shooting of innocents in USA" will be about as newsworthy as "Dog bites man"...



Yeah I don't know if there's something wrong in my brain but whenever I hear about shootings now my reaction is simply "oh..."


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## Smelge (Aug 6, 2012)

[yt]sVrBxprGXv4[/yt]

This is fucking why.

And to be honest, America deserves constant shootings. You all go completely mental over your news channels and believe every word they say despite the majority of them having their own political agendas, then you allow every last person access to murder tools without prerequirements for training, and if you don't get them you scream about how it breaches your rights as an American. And then everyone acts all shocked when some moron uses his legally obtained machine guns to kill loads of people.

Yeah, lack of guns may not stop shootings in other countries, but it sure as hell makes it harder for them.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

Recent update this morning reveals that the killer was an Army vet.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...fied-as-wade-michael-page-motivation-unclear/


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## Lobar (Aug 6, 2012)

The problem with stereotypes is _not_ that they are false.  The problem is that they are _incomplete_.  Visit Mexico, for example, and I'm sure you can find a guy that plays in a Mariachi band, wears a big sombrero, loves tacos and takes a siesta every day.  He almost certainly exists and you'd be a fool to assert otherwise.  But he does not represent all Mexicans.  That's the problem with stereotypes.

The racist redneck "this is are country" 'Murrikan that can't tell one "towelhead" from another and thinks "we ought to just kill 'em all and let Jesus sort 'em out" is a stereotype.  But they do exist, and not even in small numbers, and that is the _most likely_ profile of the shooter.


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## Smelge (Aug 6, 2012)

Sorry, I don't get this. People keep moaning about how each new shooting will make people talk more about gun control, and they do this like it's a bad thing.

Gun control does not ensure shootings will not happen, but it makes it a hell of a lot harder to obtain weaponry. In most countries you'd need to locate someone who deals in the weapons you want, illegally, which risks discovery, source the ammunition and so on. You can legally buy stuff like shotguns for farm use, but they need to be registered first, and they're pretty useless for a massacre. But no, in the US it's all Second Amendment Rights and people buying guns to make up for their tiny dicks. "Oh, I must have a gun so I can protect my family". Yeah, protect your family by shooting yourself in the leg, then shooting next doors wife because you seem to think a plasterboard wall will stop a projectile lump of metal. Good fucking job.

And just because this guy has been in the army doesn't make him a safe gun user. It just means he's able to murder more efficiently.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Recent update this morning reveals that the killer was an Army vet.
> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...fied-as-wade-michael-page-motivation-unclear/


So not only were you hella wrong, you automatically assumed it was a racist redneck christian solely on the premise of the person being white and rumors of a red truck when in reality the shooter was a dishonorably discharged soldier with training in firearms.

Hey here's a crazy off the wall thought, maybe just maybe automatically assuming every person who murders another is cause they're christian you'll make yourself look ridiculous.


Tl:dr; Kit's logic: "Oh someone shot someone else, must be a christian".


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> So not only were you hella wrong, you automatically assumed it was a racist redneck christian solely on the premise of the person being white and rumors of a red truck when in reality the shooter was a dishonorably discharged soldier with training in firearms.
> 
> Hey here's a crazy off the wall thought, maybe just maybe automatically assuming every person who murders another is cause they're christian you'll make yourself look ridiculous.


Don't make me laugh; you've been focusing on the 'Christian' element throughout the whole thread, but that is only a single aspect of the type I am trying to describe. Read Lobar's post-  his point is well-honed. And what a cute little edit, CF. You say_ I _am the one being unreasonable?


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Don't make me laugh; you've been focusing on the 'Christian' element throughout the whole thread, but that is only a single aspect of the type I am trying to describe. Read Lobar's post-  his point is well-honed.


My point is that the logic behind your assumption "is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have heard.  At no point in your rambling incoherrent response were you close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.  Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.  I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul."(And yes I did just watch Billy Madison)


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## BRN (Aug 6, 2012)

:I


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

SIX said:


> :I


Sikhi has always been a minority religion. It just doesn't have the 'fear' factor to spread rapidly.
But I was always of the understanding that they were good fighters. Maybe this isn't true in the West.


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## BRN (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Sikhi has always been a minority religion. It just doesn't have the 'fear' factor to spread rapidly.
> But I was always of the understanding that they were good fighters. Maybe this isn't true in the West.



I understand that Sikhism isn't a major religion, but considering its peaceful values and what Sikhs contribute around the world to community projects, I think more people should be more aware of 'em. To see that the 'international reaction' is 'what's a sikh' is aughhh


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## Attaman (Aug 6, 2012)

Article Contained Within said:
			
		

> Relatives of Satwant Kaleka, the president of the temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, said Monday that he was killed fighting the attacker.
> 
> "From what we understand, he basically fought to the very end and suffered gunshot wounds while trying to take down the gunman," said Kanwardeep Singh Kaleka, his nephew.
> 
> "He was a protector of his own people, just an incredible individual who showed his love and passion for our people, our faith, to the end," he said, near tears.



Also, the suspect does have some connections to White Supremacy (just no major White Supremacist movements). It's also rather understandable why police were considering this domestic terrorism after merely looking at the suspect's remains.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Sikhi has always been a minority religion. It just doesn't have the 'fear' factor to spread rapidly.
> But I was always of the understanding that they were good fighters. Maybe this isn't true in the West.



Traditionally sihks wear battle-shorts under their clothing as well as a short sword called a Kirpan, so they are 'always ready to fight,', however many wear plastic representations of swords instead nowadays. 

Talking of their popularity, if the UK recognised Jediism as an official religion there would be more Jedi in the UK than Sihks.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Attaman said:


> Also, the suspect does have some connections to White Supremacy (just no major White Supremacist movements). It's also rather understandable why police were considering this domestic terrorism after merely looking at the suspect's remains.


*notices the swaztika*
So that means it's more likely that he was a neo-nazi or a group affiliated with them?


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## Attaman (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> *notices the swaztika*
> So that means it's more likely that he was a neo-nazi?


A-yep. He also apparently had "Remember 9/11" tattoos on him, not shown in that image / angle. Needless to say, suspect didn't exactly paint a good picture of themselves before they went on the rampage, let alone after.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> *notices the swaztika*
> So that means it's more likely that he was a neo-nazi or a group affiliated with them?


How many *upstanding *skinheads do you think there actually are? Do you honestly think that many _educated_, _ gentile _white men would join their ranks? No. Most 'Neo-Nazis' are indeed rednecks.
 Forgetting 'Christianity' altogether at that.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> How many *upstanding *skinheads do you think there actually are? Do you honestly think that many _educated_, _ gentile _white men would join their ranks? No. Most 'Neo-Nazis' are indeed rednecks.
> Forgetting 'Christianity' altogether at that.


You went "cause he was christian" and I went "cause of 9/11".  Way to admit you were wrong without actually admitting you were wrong.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> You went "cause he was christian" and I went "cause of 9/11".  Way to admit you were wrong without actually admitting you were wrong.


You oversimplified what I had originally said to try to make a point that wasn't applicable to my argument in the first place.


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## Lobar (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> So not only were you hella wrong, you automatically assumed it was *a racist redneck christian* solely on the premise of the person being white and rumors of a red truck when in reality the shooter was *a dishonorably discharged soldier with training in firearms*.



You say this like these are two mutually exclusive things.


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## Neoi (Aug 6, 2012)

zachhart12 said:


> 5?  Did I miss 3?



There was the theater shooting, the church, the bbq party in toronto, This shooting that happened in canada where a guy was shooting at cars on the highway, Im pretty sure there was more. Id have to look it up becuase It slipped my mind.


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## Judge Spear (Aug 6, 2012)

Lots of fighting going on here...


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## zachhart12 (Aug 6, 2012)

Neoi said:


> There was the theater shooting, the church, the bbq party in toronto, This shooting that happened in canada where a guy was shooting at cars on the highway, Im pretty sure there was more. Id have to look it up becuase It slipped my mind.



 bbq party? Highway? Never heard of em heh.


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## Rilvor (Aug 6, 2012)

Sad to see more people care about what American subtype the killer was than learning about a group of peaceful people who bring some good to the world.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

Rilvor said:


> Sad to see more people care about what American subtype the killer was than learning about a group of peaceful people who bring some good to the world.


If I didn't know anything about them, I wouldn't have started this thread.


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## Rilvor (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> If I didn't know anything about them, I wouldn't have started this thread.



It's an obscure religion here in the states, as evidenced by the post earlier.

When I heard about it yesterday, I didn't know what "Sikh" was either. Coincidentally it was hard to care much about a group that is anonymous.

Then I found out about the group, and it makes me genuinely sad this happened to these people.

Point I am making is that knowing is important, don't you think?


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Lobar said:


> You say this like these are two mutually exclusive things.


Well obviously.
It's just bugging me that Kit's logic as of late whenever there is something major going on in the news has been along the lines of, "now I'm not saying it's cause he was religious, but it's cause he was religious".


P.s. Eeyup, the gunman was a neo-nazi


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 6, 2012)

Nazi ideology is a direct offshoot of Christian dogma, so that relativizes that.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> Nazi ideology is a direct offshoot of Christian dogma, so that relativizes that.


I thought nazi ideology was based off the idea that "the protocols of zion" were real?  As in nazi ideology itself is based off a conspiracy theory saying that jews were making a illuminati to take control of the world.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 6, 2012)

And who invented anti-semitism?

Christians. Full circle.


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## Aetius (Aug 6, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> And who invented anti-semitism?
> 
> *People that hated others*. Full circle.



Fix'd.

People have always been racist against one another and against the Jews, even before the advent of Christianity.



Gryphoneer said:


> Nazi ideology is a direct offshoot of Christian dogma, so that relativizes that.



Nazism ideology was more based off nationalism and the extreme amounts of racism that was in Germany. To say that it was rooted in Christianity and core christian teachings is defiantly a farce.

Edit: Just going to make a simple demonstration on how Christianity is not even close or even related to National Socialism

Christianity at its core: A pacifist religion that calls for accepting the outcasted, going past racial boundaries, and to live in peace (not many people do a good job of following these points) 

National Socialism: An extremely racist and violent political ideology that calls for the destruction of those that are inferior to the German people, and for the conquest of "living space".

Yeah, those really are somehow related.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> And who invented anti-semitism?
> 
> Christians. Full circle.


Please tell me you're trolling.


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## Jashwa (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Please tell me you're trolling.


I highly doubt this. This is par the course for Gryphoneer.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> I highly doubt this. This is par the course for Gryphoneer.


This thread is doomed to devolve into conspiracy theories claiming the person was religiously motivated rather than how he was a neo-nazi.


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## Jashwa (Aug 6, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> This thread is doomed to devolve into conspiracy theories claiming the person was religiously motivated rather than how he was a neo-nazi.


It wouldn't if you weren't there the entire time screaming about how people are blaming Christianity and basically encouraging people to blame Christianity by making it the focus of the thread instead of talking about the meaningful part of Kit's stereotypical profiling of who he imagined the suspect to be. Plus, no one has claimed he was religiously motivated yet. Learn to read instead of just getting insulted and typing back at people, please. 

No one in the thread said that he did it because he was a Christian or that Christianity. If you were paying attention instead of getting offended, you would've noted that Kit was blaming the guy being ignorant and a redneck. It just so happens that the stereotype for ignorant rednecks also involves Jesus and that's why it got mentioned. If you read the part _directly after that_, you would see he was asserting that the guy was doing it for "patriotic" reasons and not religious. 


And gryphoneer was relating Christianity to the source of the sentiments, but that does not mean he's saying the guy did it because Christians are violent murderers or something. He was pointing out (whether it's true or not I have no clue since I haven't/have no desire to do any research on the subject) that the likely reason for this had origins in Christianity in direct response to you white-knighting while it wasn't even being attacked.


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## Aetius (Aug 6, 2012)

Didn't the police have bomb squads outside of the guys house? Anyone know what has happened since?


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> It wouldn't if you weren't there the entire time screaming about how people are blaming Christianity and basically encouraging people to blame Christianity by making it the focus of the thread instead of talking about the meaningful part of Kit's stereotypical profiling of who he imagined the suspect to be. Plus, no one has claimed he was religiously motivated yet. Learn to read instead of just getting insulted and typing back at people, please.
> 
> No one in the thread said that he did it because he was a Christian or that Christianity. If you were paying attention instead of getting offended, you would've noted that Kit was blaming the guy being ignorant and a redneck. It just so happens that the stereotype for ignorant rednecks also involves Jesus and that's why it got mentioned. If you read the part _directly after that_, you would see he was asserting that the guy was doing it for "patriotic" reasons and not religious.
> 
> ...


Why I'm going on about it is the last few threads on incidents where a tragedy was involved Kit has passively suggested <insert tragedy> likely cause is rooted in religion(with the exception of the aurora shooter).  What I am doing is saying Kit needs to cut the passive conspiracy theories shit, and by that putting forth when talking about tragedies or events where tragedies happened by saying that the cause is rooted in religion.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 6, 2012)

Aetius said:


> Christianity at its core: An extremely segregationist and violent religion that calls for the genocidal destruction of those that are deemed "godless heathens" and therefore inferior to "God's chosen" people and for the conquest of "God's chosen land", whatever that may be this century.


Fixed that for you.

Can you see it now? If not, do me the favor and read up on the Old Testament and certain passages of the New one in which ol' Jeebus becomes rough.

I'm not pursuing conspiracy theories, I'm just pointing out the Jeebusfreaks have complicity in the Nazi's emergence.

And anyway, who the fuck has reconfigured the laws of nature so that you can't be a Nazi and an Xian crank simultaneously? Didn't get _that_ memo.


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## Jashwa (Aug 6, 2012)

Except that that isn't relevant since Kit didn't bring up any passive conspiracy theory shit that the cause was rooted in religion. You brought that up. 

Don't call out other users based on other threads when they don't even relate except extremely tangentially, CF. You have a bad habit of doing this along with your victim complex, not fact checking your posts, and replying with tangents unrelated to the posts/threads you're replying to. 


Let's _please_ get back on topic of the shooting/gunman/relevant info about it and stop with this useless banter about Christianity. It doesn't need to be the center of everything. (EDIT-This goes for everyone, not just CF.)


Also, I forget who mentioned it earlier, but Sikh's turbans don't HAVE to be blue. I go to school with a guy who's Sikh and he wears white and black turbans almost exclusively. I'm not sure I've seen him wear a blue one even.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 6, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> Also, I forget who mentioned it earlier, but Sikh's turbans don't HAVE to be blue. I go to school with a guy who's Sikh and he wears white and black turbans almost exclusively. I'm not sure I've seen him wear a blue one even.


Yeah...   >.> that'd be me. I have plenty of videos in my Indian music playlist on YT of Sikh players who mostly wear black or white.  It's the "ministers" who wear the blue ones; I guess the only Sikh I met was one.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> along with your victim complex


Dafuq?


Jashwa said:


> Let's _please_ get back on topic of the shooting/gunman/relevant info


Well it seems as though the reason why the shooter was discharged from the military wasn't cause of anything severe, it was just a general dishonorable discharge for minor things.


As for his background some new info is that he wanted to fight in a racial war.  So it seems as though the most likely reason now is because of his neo-nazi beliefs.


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## Jashwa (Aug 6, 2012)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Yeah...   >.> that'd be me. I have plenty of videos in my Indian music playlist on YT of Sikh players who mostly wear black or white.  It's the "ministers" who wear the blue ones; I guess the only Sikh I met was one.


Ah, I see. I remember hearing that before, but I must've forgotten. Thanks for the reminder. 


CannonFodder said:


> Well it seems as though the reason why the shooter was discharged from the military wasn't cause of anything severe, it was just a general dishonorable discharge for minor things.


Such as? Or hasn't it been released, merely implied by the fact that he wasn't "Dishonorably discharged" technically.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 6, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> Such as? Or hasn't it been released, merely implied by the fact that he wasn't "Dishonorably discharged" technically.


Not really.
All that it says is the final straw that got him discharged was him showing up to drill drunk and that he had a history of minor misconduct.


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## Jashwa (Aug 6, 2012)

Commie Bat said:


> I don't know how it is in America but you don't get dishonorably discharged for "minor" things.  Maybe our definition of minor is different, as it takes a big screw up and various other punishments before you get discharged.


Cannonfodder is using improper wording and it's confusing you/me/people. 

He wasn't dishonorably discharged, but rather discharged without honors (a general discharge). This is the discharge for little things that add up.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 6, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> Except that that isn't relevant since Kit didn't bring up any passive conspiracy theory shit that the cause was rooted in religion. You brought that up.


Except that it's not "passive conspiracy theory shit" but historical fact that's highly relevant as he could have just as well gone to the next immigrant ghetto if it was only about racism. Religion seems to be involved, too.


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## Jashwa (Aug 6, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> Except that it's not "passive conspiracy theory shit" but historical fact that's highly relevant as he could have just as well gone to the next immigrant ghetto if it was only about racism. Religion seems to be involved, too.


My reply was to Cannonfodder, not you. Also, last time I'm going to ask that we drop the conspiracy theory debate in this thread. If you wanna talk about what's fact or conspiracy theory, then you and CF can PM to your hearts' content. Let's keep this about the actual shooting and not background speculation or overarching theories about the world in general. 


I don't think the fact that he killed people at a religious institution implies that his religion was a motivating factor at all. Sure, he may have been motivated by facets of their religion that led him to his own fucked up conclusions, but it doesn't mean that he was someone who was on a holy crusade. It's more likely, going by his remember 9/11 tattoos, army background, and neo nazi-ism that he wrongly viewed these people as enemies of his country and not of his religion. Not to say it's not a possibility that it could've been religiously motivated in some messed up demented way, but we have 0 clues to indicate that.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Aug 7, 2012)

Shootings like this are God's way of saying this country needs more people armed with the second amendment. #NRA #TCOT #9-11 #NEVER4GET


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## CannonFodder (Aug 7, 2012)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> Shootings like this are God's way of saying this country needs more people armed with the second amendment. #NRA #TCOT #9-11 #NEVER4GET


I think far to many people think they are the cop from this movie-
[YT]Qxc_3jTzoic[/YT]


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## Mayfurr (Aug 7, 2012)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> Shootings like this are God's way of saying this country needs more people armed with the second amendment. #NRA #TCOT #9-11 #NEVER4GET



Considering that it appears Wisconsin's gun laws are already pretty liberal with respect to access to guns, where were all the supposed brave armed citizens ready and waiting to take the shooter out as soon as he started firing? 

Oh wait - it was a fully trained COP that took the shooter down. 

Second Amendment permissiveness didn't do jack shit in preventing or stopping this. Stupid bloody NRA.


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## sunshyne (Aug 7, 2012)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> Shootings like this are God's way of saying this country needs more people armed with the second amendment. #NRA #TCOT #9-11 #NEVER4GET



YEEEEEEEEEEEEE HOOEY!

*chugs from whiskey bottle, then blows rhythmically across the top of a jug*


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## Lobar (Aug 7, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> I don't think the fact that he killed people at a religious institution implies that his religion was a motivating factor at all. Sure, he may have been motivated by facets of their religion that led him to his own fucked up conclusions, but it doesn't mean that he was someone who was on a holy crusade. It's more likely, going by his remember 9/11 tattoos, army background, and neo nazi-ism that he wrongly viewed these people *as enemies of his country and not of his religion*. Not to say it's not a possibility that it could've been religiously motivated in some messed up demented way, but we have 0 clues to indicate that.



For people of the mindset that we're talking about, these aren't really two seperate things.


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## Zuckerdachs (Aug 7, 2012)

Commie Bat said:


> I don't know how it is in America but you don't get dishonorably discharged for "minor" things.




I know someone who was dishonorably discharged from the Navy for harassing a stripper, which is comparatively pretty minor.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Aug 7, 2012)

sunshyne said:


> YEEEEEEEEEEEEE HOOEY!
> 
> *chugs from whiskey bottle, then blows rhythmically across the top of a jug*


National Rednecks' Association: "Guns don't kill, they just make it more fun!"


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## Neuron (Aug 7, 2012)

The more I get to know about this religion the more it deeply resonates with me as many things that I can relate to. The love of all human life, the goal to do good for others, etc. This is a peaceful religion and it deeply saddens and disturbs me to know such violence would be thrust upon such a devoted people to bringing the values of humanity to light.

I do see prejudices where people do not understand the scarves, and they believe them to be sexist or indicators of "terrorism" or violent inclinations. To be honest, there are hindu sects in my state that wear these scarves and turbans, and also the Sikhs though very few and rare that have been around. There are a great deal of people who are here from Pakistan, Syria, all kinds of places where they are a peace loving person following a religion of unity, and from these stereotypes they gain so much hate and vitriol.

I understand that many "Christians" would be so judgmental, but I refuse to call these people what they are not. Their religion, as I understand it, as I have studied it, teaches many great lessons of love, unity, kindness for human beings. They choose to believe that they must not dedicate themselves to the study of their own values, and precepts, in truth, my studies of the Bible led to the overwhelming message, by dozens of holy men, that the human life be valued above all, that Jesus teaches us that God and people can be one, and that the sins of ourselves lead us away from the bliss of life. 

But there are also terrible ways that people twist it into hypocrisy, where they give out the message that religion does not have to be progressive, and we are not allowed an interpretation free of some of the more hateful beliefs and philosophies written by those who even in their own faith are bickered amongst about whether they are worthy of consideration for centuries. 

I am more Hindu in my own philosophies than anything, but the seven sins are similar in the sense of the Five Thieves of Sikh belief, the notion in Hindu belief that worldly attachments and feelings lead us to misery and distance from the spiritual plane. In truth, in these philosophies, the idea of a man in the sky is such an alien concept. It has been for me, certainly.

We must, through whatever means, make it known that man is one. That this behavior is not what humanity deserves of one another. I do not care for what others believe, but I know this to be true and absolute. 

There will be evil people who will succumb and do great evil, what we must do in these times is remind ourselves of our unity to one another no matter the belief.


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## Fallowfox (Aug 7, 2012)

On the subject of sihkism the first time I visited a gurdwara I was a christian at the time. I found out I liked sihkism more than my own religion. Thus the beginning of my change to atheism. x3 

Sihkism is a very interesting religion, because unlike almost any other, the first stone of its first major temple was lain down by someone from a _different _religion, I believe it was a muslim.


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## Ames (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm never moving out of SoCal.


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## Kahoku (Aug 7, 2012)

Elim Garak said:


> Maybe this guy confused Muslims with Sikhs, since some Sikhs wear turbins as well. It's not the first time people confused them.



Even if, that is still horrible on many levels..._Right we are really going to solve this with violence_ âŒ_âŒ....and secondly....doesn't anyone view these people as people? I mean I feel horrible for the one lady who had her brother shot...as well as the rest....


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## Jashwa (Aug 7, 2012)

Lobar said:


> For people of the mindset that we're talking about, these aren't really two seperate things.


I'm sure they aren't to some, but it's a little much for me to believe that the majority of rednecks (having lived around rednecks all of my life so far) don't separate patriotism and religiousness in those regards even if they do hold them on equal pedestals.


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## CannonFodder (Aug 8, 2012)

Well turns out the gunman killed himself.  I was thinking the cops or someone took him down, nope he shot himself in the head.


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## BRN (Aug 8, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Well turns out the gunman killed himself.  I was thinking the cops or someone took him down, nope he shot himself in the head.



Cits? All I've heard is that a cop hit him fatally with a rifle shell.


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## Aetius (Aug 8, 2012)

SIX said:


> Cits? All I've heard is that a cop hit him fatally with a rifle shell.



FBI confirms he killed himself.


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## Fernin (Aug 9, 2012)

A fun fact for the those citing how deadly and dangerous america is and how awful it is to have guns here.

In America around 15,000 people die every year by homicide, of which about 20% is gun related.

In the UK, around...wait for it, wait for it... 18,000 people die every year by homicide, with around 3% of it gun related.

So, long story short, move to america if you want to get shot. Or move to mostly gun free Europe where you'll be beaten or stabbed to death instead. And infact, per capita, you're MORE likely to die a violent death in the UK than in the US.... Funny how that works.





Mayfurr said:


> Considering that it appears Wisconsin's gun laws are already pretty liberal with respect to access to guns, where were all the supposed brave armed citizens ready and waiting to take the shooter out as soon as he started firing?
> 
> Oh wait - it was a fully trained COP that took the shooter down.
> 
> Second Amendment permissiveness didn't do jack shit in preventing or stopping this. Stupid bloody NRA.



The fact you didn't consider there was no one around EXCEPT the people in the temple, which doesn't allow guns, amuses me to no end.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 9, 2012)

Fernin said:


> In America around 15,000 people die every year by homicide, of which about 20% is gun related.
> 
> In the UK, around...wait for it, wait for it... 18,000 people die every year by homicide, with around 3% of it gun related.


Citation needed.

And since when is the UK representative of the entirety of Europe? Most of them don't even consider themselves part of it. Bet homicide rates in the European countries with common sense gun laws are way lower than in the United Barbarian Lands.


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## Fernin (Aug 9, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> Citation needed.
> 
> And since when is the UK representative of the entirety of Europe? Most of them don't even consider themselves part of it. Bet homicide rates in the European countries with common sense gun laws are way lower than in the United Barbarian Lands.



http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-...-who-report-shows-these-deaths-can-be-avoided
One of the ones, I need to find the others I got the figures out of. Amusing enough as well, since 4 out of 10 deaths were by knives, perhaps nobody in the UK should be allowed to own a knife, given the wanton indiscriminate death they seem to cause.

And I chose the UK because alot of the mouths going on about violence in america I meet online come from there, but looking into it the the murders per capita in most other developed nations isn't far behind, amusingly enough except for places where gun ownership is higher, but also have much smaller total populations. I didn't factor underdeveloped or unstable nations into things given their inherent rates of violence which would blow those of any civilized nation out of the water.


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## Mayfurr (Aug 9, 2012)

Fernin said:


> The fact you didn't consider there was no one around EXCEPT the people in the temple, which doesn't allow guns, amuses me to no end.



Ah, but where were the brave gun-carrying citizenry OUTSIDE the temple when the shooting started? If concealed-carry and the like was such a deterrent, the shooter would surely have considered that concerned law-abiding members of the public would leap to the defence of their fellow citizens - well, that's the scenario the pro-gun folks like to portray for justification of carrying pistols etc in public.

Unless of course
a) the deterrence factor of an armed citizenry with respect to criminals is highly overrated, or
b) the Sikhs concerned weren't _quite_ considered "fellow citizens" by the non-Sikh gun carriers (if any) outside the temple.

Either way, it's not exactly supportive of the contention that "an armed society is a safe / polite society".


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## Mayfurr (Aug 9, 2012)

Fernin said:


> I didn't factor underdeveloped or unstable nations into things given their inherent rates of violence which would blow those of any civilized nation out of the water.



That's cherry-picking. If an armed society with light or non-existent gun laws is truly a safe / polite society, Somalia would by this logic be a charming paradise of freedom. Yet I don't see the NRA-types flocking to Mogadishu for their holidays...


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## Jashwa (Aug 9, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Yet I don't see the NRA-types flocking to Mogadishu for their holidays...


This is only because it's not yet legal to hunt humans out of helicopters because they're poor, but give it a few years...


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## Neuron (Aug 9, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> This is only because it's not yet legal to hunt humans out of helicopters because they're poor, but give it a few years...


I've always wondered myself if some rich asshole could do a lot of fucking with people by somehow acquiring a UAV.


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## cobalt-blue (Aug 9, 2012)

Jashwa said:


> This is only because it's not yet legal to hunt humans out of helicopters because they're poor, but give it a few years...



How about pirates :V  http://somalicruises.com/


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## Rilvor (Aug 10, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Ah, but where were the brave gun-carrying citizenry OUTSIDE the temple when the shooting started?



This is absurd. If you had bothered to gather a decent look at the site involved, you might have notice that there isn't much nearby. The temple itself is apparently in a neighborhood, but it is rather obvious from even a half hearted Image search that other buildings are not nearby. You aren't even trying, you are merely here to make ridiculous arguments based on nothing at all. I'm not even certain why you're bothering really.

Though I think it may be worse that anyone agreed with your post without bothering to look either.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Aug 11, 2012)

Fernin said:


> A fun fact for the those citing how deadly and dangerous america is and how awful it is to have guns here.
> 
> In America around 15,000 people die every year by homicide, of which about 20% is gun related.
> 
> ...





			
				  said:
			
		

> wikipedia/UNOCD-studie
> 
> 
> The UNODC  made a study in 2012 that includes most countries of the world. The  following lists show only the most recent data. Intentional homicide in  this case is defined as unlawful death purposefully inflicted on a  person by another person.
> ...



So, long story short: if you want to get killed, go to the USA or into the ex UDSSR, if you want to live got to Europe (but stay west of where the Iron-curtain was)


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## Mayfurr (Aug 11, 2012)

Rilvor said:


> This is absurd. If you had bothered to gather a decent look at the site involved, you might have notice that there isn't much nearby. The temple itself is apparently in a neighborhood, but it is rather obvious from even a half hearted Image search that other buildings are not nearby.



It's no more ridiculous than the pro-gun types claiming with a straight face that the Aurora shooting might have been curtailed by gun-totin' law-abiding citizens, despite the fact that the shooting was carried out in darkness, in an enclosed space, where smoke obscuring the view of everyone in the theatre was present, and the actual scenario was essentially a live-fire combat situation instead of plinking away at targets on a range.


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## Rilvor (Aug 12, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> It's no more ridiculous than the pro-gun types claiming with a straight face that the Aurora shooting might have been curtailed by gun-totin' law-abiding citizens, despite the fact that the shooting was carried out in darkness, in an enclosed space, where smoke obscuring the view of everyone in the theatre was present, and the actual scenario was essentially a live-fire combat situation instead of plinking away at targets on a range.



So because some people wish to make idiotic arguments, that must mean that we must repeat them yes? Is that what I am to understand?


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## Lobar (Aug 12, 2012)

Rilvor said:


> So because some people wish to make idiotic arguments, that must mean that we must repeat them yes? Is that what I am to understand?



Someone mocked a stupid opinion on the INTERNET!  He must be chastised!  Perhaps someday when he is cool and mature like you he won't feel the need to sink to the level of such petty, small-minded actions!


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## Rilvor (Aug 12, 2012)

Lobar said:


> Someone mocked a stupid opinion on the INTERNET!  He must be chastised!  Perhaps someday when he is cool and mature like you he won't feel the need to sink to the level of such petty, small-minded actions!


You have a point with this, I hope?

Perhaps I am wrong, but is he not attempting to use this same admittedly idiotic logic to make an argument?


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## Lobar (Aug 12, 2012)

Rilvor said:


> You have a point with this, I hope?
> 
> Perhaps I am wrong, but is he not attempting to use this same admittedly idiotic logic to make an argument?



No, he's just engaging in some light-hearted mockery.  As am I, for that matter.


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## Rilvor (Aug 12, 2012)

Lobar said:


> No, he's just engaging in some light-hearted mockery.  As am I, for that matter.



I understand this. Perhaps it is I who does not trust it as such based on the poster's history, but I suppose that is an assumption. Was he trying to make a point in that post? It certainly looks like there is an argument to be made based on his A. and B. points coupled with conclusion. My problem is he us using what you are claiming as light-hearted mockery as a means to drawing those points. Especially based on post #101. So no, I don't think he is joking at all in fact. It looks to me like he is making an absolutely absurd argument that is just as crazy as the commandos who think they could have done anything in the Aurora shooting. I have a problem with people using corpses as their podium you understand, and this is what it looks like to me.


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 12, 2012)

Rilvor said:


> So because some people wish to make idiotic arguments, that must mean that we must repeat them yes? Is that what I am to understand?


Since there are never "concerned, armed bystanders", I don't quite see the "idiotic".


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## Rilvor (Aug 12, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> Since there are never "concerned, armed bystanders", I don't quite see the "idiotic".



You can prove this sweeping statement as much as they can prove their sweeping statement that any trained gun carrier could have helped. Do you see what I am trying to say?


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## Gryphoneer (Aug 12, 2012)

A quick look at official figures (_any _official figures) makes clear that either these Very Concerned gun nuts are hideously inefficient or simply non-existent.

The associated studies point to the latter...


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