# There is no American Dream anymore



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

Drunk ramblings alert, but I stand by it. The American Dream is no more. 

It's really lost, in all honesty. In several senses. The usual argument for this fact would start out by trying to define the American dream. I will forgo this. Why? It doesn't matter. It's never about the dream .The dream is subjective. It's different for every person. 

I'm talking about the idealized pursuit of it. The sense of that you're not going wrong and that in the end it WILL pay off no matter who you are and where you're from. 

It's gone. Vanished. 

The connectivity of the world via internet, cell phone, smart phone, etc, has our generation at a creative standstill that's stagnating each inch of our lives. There's nothing new. It's all out there. It's not who's doing it best. It's whose doing it first. And instead of that hard and methodical of never giving up, it's a mad scramble to jump on the freshest idea before someone else does. 

Now, am I saying that internet is all to blame? No. That'd be arrogant and stupidly hipster-esque to say so. It's just the times. The evolution of our generation and all that entails. There's too much red tape and not enough enough individuality. It's the norm to be weird and unique, and it's square to fall into the usual quota of the established norms. 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

There's just nothing we can rally behind or vouch for. There's little to no unexplored lands. We have no war or "can-do" attitude to fight that clear enemy because the government said so, we're too critical and smart for that. Not a good thing nor a bad thing. there's just no clear line of what the right and admirable thing to do. This blurring of that line has left us fucked. 

And that quick route of inventing something fancy and amazing that everyone will love? Shot. Technology had gone beyond the practical and clever to the sophisticated and complex. You're more likely to have your invention built INTO another invention of sorts. Your bit of technology will vaguely have your name attached to it. You'll have your article in some modern science magazine and that's it. 

But I'm rambling. I've talked too much but have said too little, and if I haven't made my point I won't anytime soon. I'm speaking in pessimistic absolutes that can certainly be rebutted, and I welcome it. My drunk ass deserves it.

*Edit* I'm wondering if this belongs in rants.... but to clarify, it's not really a rant. I'm just musing, half hung over and stuff. I'll probably reverse my opinion about all this in the morning, but my mind thus far has gone in a different direction at the moment. 

'Off topic' does seem appropriate.


----------



## Unsilenced (Apr 26, 2011)

As much as I would like to violently disagree with you, (it's the internet, kinda what's expected here) I mostly agree. 

My solution is to become an apathetic douche.

Works pretty well so far. :v


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

Never believe it in the first place.


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> Never believe it in the first place.


 
Does anyone? It's always been there, on the tip of every mantra and encouraging quip that's been on television and school.

Only no one is really noticing the rotting smell or the flies around it.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 26, 2011)

If you can make a thread like this while drunk, drink more often.

I agree with what you said, the creativity has pretty much died out it's for the most part gimmicks now.
I think in the next ten years we'll see the same shit still, except with more gimmicks, I can already imagine a tv ad going, "4D television is for wusses, try new 11D television with smell-o-scope" or some shit.
But to put this in a broader context I think society is closing in on it's potential and is slowing down in a metaphorical sense, while technology is advancing we aren't doing anything worth wild with it.

Also the american dream was always a farce.


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> If you can make a thread like this while drunk, drink more often.



I guess alcohol makes it where I don't give an honest damn about trying to come off as clever, sarcastic, or a some subversive and evil person/troll/cool guy. Instead.... I'm just me, rambly and pointless and honest... but with a headache and a distinct lack of driving skills. 

Oop, look. I made a clever little joke there. Obviously I need more cinnamon schnapps. (Fuck, did it again.... shit.)

Anyhow, in more relevant response to all that other stuff you said, yes. That should be the tagline for our generation. Not "You can do it" or anything, but "Now with more gimmicks". That's almost all we have left now. 

Unless... you know. Space travel developed fantastically fast, or something similar like that. But there's a good chance it'll be defunct for the current generation anyhow. We're a day late and a dollar short, but too early for the party to be any fun.


----------



## Plantar (Apr 26, 2011)

The only good American Dream is a song by Soulbender. Nick Pollock speaks the truth.

Ask yourself-at what price are we free with this vision? 
Is there anyone here who really knows what it means to be free?


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 26, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> I guess alcohol makes it where I don't give an honest damn about trying to come off as clever, sarcastic, or a some subversive and evil person/troll/cool guy. Instead.... I'm just me, rambly and pointless and honest... but with a headache and a distinct lack of driving skills.
> 
> Oop, look. I made a clever little joke there. Obviously I need more cinnamon schnapps. (Fuck, did it again.... shit.)
> 
> ...


 The space shuttle got canned, so even space travel is getting slashed.

If you ask me the way we are going as a society is that in the future now we'll still have cars, phones and that it'll just be newer version.  So instead of a Iphone 2 or such, we'll have a Iphone 42.


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

Crocodile said:


> The only good American Dream is a song by Soulbender. Nick Pollock speaks the truth.
> 
> Ask yourself-at what price are we free with this vision?
> Is there anyone here who really knows what it means to be free?


 
What the fuck is this philosophical bullshit? This is like... starting a whole 'nother god damned discussion.

Shoo. Shoo off with that nonsense. Maybe when I'm sober, but not when I can barely take a piss without my headache stabbing my face.



CannonFodder said:


> If you ask me the way we are going as a society is that in the future now we'll still have cars, phones and that it'll just be newer version.  So instead of a Iphone 2 or such, we'll have a Iphone 42.


 
Yeah. People are all, "OOOOOoooo smart phones!"

Dude... they're just phones that do more stuff, and that's going to be our claim to fame. Being able to tack more shit on something that's already been made.


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> Does anyone? It's always been there, on the tip of every mantra and encouraging quip that's been on television and school.
> 
> Only no one is really noticing the rotting smell or the flies around it.


 It's the Curse of the Boomer. The older they become, the more irrelevant their values to mainstream society. People don't need to be motivated by blind nationalism as much as they used to be. Blame the Red Scare, The CIA, and the Reagan Administration, things all far in our past, and hopefully lessons well learned.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> It's the Curse of the Boomer. The older they become, the more irrelevant their values to mainstream society. People don't need to be motivated by blind nationalism as much as they used to be. Blame the Red Scare, The CIA, and the Reagan Administration, things all far in our past, and hopefully lessons well learned.


 Imagine how America is going to be when they eventually die from old age?


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> Imagine how America is going to be when they eventually die from old age?


 
That's an interesting thought. Confused, maybe? No... I think that most will still try to hold up all those ideals. Keep scooping water out of the boat with a bucket that has a hole in it, smiling and saying, "Hey this is still working! All is great, just like it was fifty years ago! These things were built to last!"


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 26, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> That's an interesting thought. Confused, maybe? No... I think that most will still try to hold up all those ideals. Keep scooping water out of the boat with a bucket that has a hole in it, smiling and saying, "Hey this is still working! All is great, just like it was fifty years ago! These things were built to last!"


 On the plus side as time goes on their political influence will slip.
So as time goes on it'll be harder and harder for them to fuck up america.


----------



## Olaunn (Apr 26, 2011)

Ah, dreams. It's too bad you have to be asleep to experience them.


----------



## Tycho (Apr 26, 2011)

Never.  Existed.

The "American Dream" is something that was manufactured by a consumerism-driven society to justify its own behavior and to give brainwashed ladder-climbers and Average Joes/Jills a dangling carrot to chase endlessly.



Azure said:


> It's the Curse of the Boomer. The older they  become, the more irrelevant their values to mainstream society. People  don't need to be motivated by blind nationalism as much as they used to  be. Blame the Red Scare, The CIA, and the Reagan Administration, things  all far in our past, and hopefully lessons well learned.


 
Also, fuck boomers.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 26, 2011)

Tycho said:


> Never.  Existed.
> The "American Dream" is something that was manufactured by a consumerism-driven society to justify its own behavior and to give brainwashed ladder-climbers and Average Joes/Jills a dangling carrot to chase endlessly.
> Also, fuck boomers.


 SO THIS!
I did better on my job that even my boss(sometimes he had to work also, cause of how often people didn't show up) and I only got promoted cause my old boss got fired.


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

CannonFodder said:


> On the plus side as time goes on their political influence will slip.
> So as time goes on it'll be harder and harder for them to fuck up america.


 
One could hope, though there will probably be some new people to take up the proverbial strap-on to screw Lady Liberty seven ways from Sunday. 

Still... one could hope.


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 26, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> One could hope, though there will probably be some new people to take up the proverbial strap-on to screw Lady Liberty seven ways from Sunday.
> 
> Still... one could hope.


 Nope, even if you do your job well you still won't get promoted.
The only reason why I got promoted was I did so well that I made everyone else look bad in comparison.  If I hadn't done so, he would've just hired out.


----------



## Thatch (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm not american, I can safely and honestly not give a fuck :V


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

Uhhhh, one thing I do believe in guys, it's this :V


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> Uhhhh, one thing I do believe in guys, it's this :V


 
He is ice cream and so can you!


----------



## jcfynx (Apr 26, 2011)

The American Dream was always an ideal, and nothing else. There was never anything factual to it. Your circumstances as a child have always determined your life greater than any other factor.

Inventing has not been listed as an actual occupation on the census for over one hundred years for a reason; very few people have ever invented anything. Even since the popularizing of the term "American Dream," inventors and explorers have had little to do. Or, are you saying that there are a lack of actual new _things_ left to produce? If that is the case, you will be pleasantly surprised at how different the face of the world looks in twenty years. There are so many things left to do. We will just never run out of things.

Americans still march blindly for their causes. Have you heard of the "green" movement of 2007 - 2009, where American youth thought they would save the environment by using re-usable water bottles and grocery bags? Or those hybrid cars that actually hurt the environment more than any other vehicle. There is no shortage of blind ideologues.

To clarify, what the American Dream refers to is the openness of American society, the lack of hierarchy compared to other countries, and the amount of market and intellectual freedom. If you disagree that America is an open society, I would encourage you to look into such cultures as Germany, India, and Japan, which produce highly educated people whose talents are stifled and often go to waste.




CoyoteCaliente said:


> Dude... they're just phones that do more stuff, and that's going to be our claim to fame. Being able to tack more shit on something that's already been made.


 
Smart phones are tiny computers that allow you to access more information than the American government had available to it in the 1950s via a device that literally fits in your pocket. This is something that changes the way we live and work. Having the Internet and e-mail everywhere predicates a massive shift in the trade of information.



CannonFodder said:


> Nope, even if you do your job well you still won't get promoted.


 
Are you saying that people do not still get promoted in America? That is distinctly untrue. You may have different expectations because you came of age in one of the greatest bust economies in the country's history, but rest assured, Americans are not universally stuck in low-end dead-end jobs. Those who are most likely deserve them.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Apr 26, 2011)

Olaunn said:


> Ah, dreams. It's too bad you have to be asleep to experience them.


 
I'm living one right now.

I played beer pong with Enrique Iglesias, had my first legal beer bought for me by a wide-receiver in the NFL, met and have access to many sports figures, and I've been making documentaries on stuff I actually care about.

I'd say I'm experiencing a whole hell of a lot to just be asleep.

/smug.

The American Dream is what people make for themselves.  Being able to rise up and improve yourself whilst in the pursuit of happiness, and attaining some level of comfort and satisfaction is a dream worth working towards.


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

Ugh, this thread is either blind idealists or idiots. What ever happened to the inbetweeners?


----------



## Thatch (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> Ugh, this thread is either blind idealists or idiots. What ever happened to the inbetweeners?


 
They're out there quietly working for theri livelyhood, instead of pursuing dreams or falling into depressed cynism about their dreams falling apart? :V


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

Thatch said:


> They're out there quietly working for theri livelyhood, instead of pursuing dreams or falling into depressed cynism about their dreams falling apart? :V


 Haha, fuck dreams, if everyone lived their dreams, nobody would do any work, just like if everyone got exactly what they wanted without struggle, there would be a severe lack of character in the world. The American Dream isn't some epic struggle, people don't need it to succeed, or even to strive. It's just washed up rhetoric fed to a generation too in love with themselves. It can't die soon enough, people can be motivated without bullshit nationalism being shoved down their throats.


----------



## Lobar (Apr 26, 2011)

The American Dream didn't die from the advent of the information age.  It died from resentment, when the era of the New Deal started moving people up through the social strata on their merit and potential, regardless of their accumulated wealth.  Those whose kids weren't cut out for college saw their neighbors sending theirs away for the first time, and resentment grew.  Reagan rose to power harnessing this resentment, destroying free education at Berkeley as Governor of CA, then dismantling the rest of the nation as President.  The resentment culture is now fully ingrained in America and there's no going back until we overcome it.

Read Term's post again, from page 1:



Term_the_Schmuck said:


> I'm living one right now.
> 
> I played beer pong with Enrique Iglesias, had my first legal beer bought for me by a wide-receiver in the NFL, met and have access to many sports figures, and I've been making documentaries on stuff I actually care about.
> 
> ...


 
Isn't your first instinct to reach through the monitor and smack him?  Even if he wasn't being deliberately smug about it, at minimum you'd be thinking "prick" or something to that effect.  We're incapable of being happy for others' success anymore unless they're close to us.  And anyone you're doing better than is thinking the same of you, and would like to see you dragged back down to their level.  This is the force that is killing the American Dream.  It's us.


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

I dunno, I don't think Enrique Eglesias and the NFL are things I'd be excited about. Everyones dreams are different, but yeah, people are rather down on other people who are "successful". I suppose it depends on how one would define success.  Though I've never really been big on the word dream, I believe in reality.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> I dunno, I don't think Enrique Eglesias and the NFL are things I'd be excited about. Everyones dreams are different, but yeah, people are rather down on other people who are "successful". I suppose it depends on how one would define success.  Though I've never really been big on the word dream, I believe in reality.


 
"Dream" and "goal" are synonymous with me.  If there's something I want to do or an opportunity presented, I take it.  I have dreams and aspirations, but I also live in reality and I know what it takes just to even make it within the ball park of my overall goals.  Will I be an award winning film maker right when I get out of college?  Hell no.  I'll probably be logging tapes for a team or doing highlight videos for high school kids for a while.  But I've garnered connections and a vast amount of experience through the things I mentioned above and it's been one hell of a ride at the very least.  I just keep working and working and at the very least I can say I didn't just wait for things to happen to me, I took the initiative.

As far as the NFL and Enrique thing, those are cool perks to some of the work I've done in the past.



			
				Lobar said:
			
		

> Isn't your first instinct to reach through the monitor and smack him? Even if he wasn't being deliberately smug about it, at minimum you'd be thinking "prick" or something to that effect. We're incapable of being happy for others' success anymore unless they're close to us. And anyone you're doing better than is thinking the same of you, and would like to see you dragged back down to their level. This is the force that is killing the American Dream. It's us.



No I'm not purposely being smug for the hell of it.  But in reality, I did all that stuff because I set out to do something and I did it, and got cool perks along the way as I mentioned previously.

The American Dream, as you said, is being squashed by the apathetic and the resentful who instead of saying "hey, I'd like to do that.  What can I do better to get to that level" you have, as we've seen in this thread, people going "FUCK THE DREAM" "YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING" "THE MAN'S KEEPING US DOWN".  If there's anyone who needs to be smacked, it's these people.  It sounds more like a whole lot of whining rather than actually trying to do something and genuinely failing because of forces beyond one's control.

In short, stop hatin', be a playa'.


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> "Dream" and "goal" are synonymous with me.  If there's something I want to do or an opportunity presented, I take it.  I have dreams and aspirations, but I also live in reality and I know what it takes just to even make it within the ball park of my overall goals.  Will I be an award winning film maker right when I get out of college?  Hell no.  I'll probably be logging tapes for a team or doing highlight videos for high school kids for a while.  But I've garnered connections and a vast amount of experience through the things I mentioned above and it's been one hell of a ride at the very least.  I just keep working and working and at the very least I can say I didn't just wait for things to happen to me, I took the initiative.
> 
> As far as the NFL and Enrique thing, those are cool perks to some of the work I've done in the past.


Yeah, I can see dream and goal being interchangeable. I just get so frustrated with people who think that life is made of instant fulfillment. "I want to be a famous insert whatever when I get out of college" "Well, you'll have to put lots of hard work in effort into that to make it work" "I WANT IT NOW WHINE WHINE WHINE". The journey is more important than the destination. I can't say I've spent my life in search of any particular goal, but along the way I've been a thousand different things that all gave me valuable experience and friends, and I'm sure that when I come to the end of it, I won't be disappointed. And who knows, we might just end up famous. I'm fairly sure that famous people didn't start out thinking they would be.  Don't hate the player, hate the game :V


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> Ugh, this thread is either blind idealists or idiots. What ever happened to the inbetweeners?


 
Where do the drunks lay in this scheme of things?

As I said, all of the stuff in the original post are very subjective and absolute. I'm sober now and I'm willing to nod to both sides of the argument in different ways, if it means anything.


----------



## Lobar (Apr 26, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> No I'm not purposely being smug for the hell of it.  But in reality, I did all that stuff because I set out to do something and I did it, and got cool perks along the way as I mentioned previously.
> 
> The American Dream, as you said, is being squashed by the apathetic and the resentful who instead of saying "hey, I'd like to do that.  What can I do better to get to that level" you have, as we've seen in this thread, people going "FUCK THE DREAM" "YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING" "THE MAN'S KEEPING US DOWN".  If there's anyone who needs to be smacked, it's these people.  It sounds more like a whole lot of whining rather than actually trying to do something and genuinely failing because of forces beyond one's control.
> 
> In short, stop hatin', be a playa'.


 
To be clear, the resentful aren't holding themselves down with their attitude, they're holding down each other.  The conservative-dominated media runs a few stories about schoolteachers managing to live a decent life, and they rush out to vote to strip the unions of their rights.  Next will be health care, mandatory minimum wages and benefits, and the 40 hour work week.  An attitude adjustment on any one person's part does nothing because he _is_ being held down by those around him, due to manipulation by those with real power.  The culture of resentment must be actively fought against by everyone.

Where those that have reached some level of success can do their part is by refusing all pretensions of being a "self-made man" and acknowledging that their success has been enabled by access to resources for self-betterment that are not available to all.


----------



## buni (Apr 26, 2011)

Tycho said:


> Never.  Existed.



I would argue that there is, at least in theory, an American Dream, which is to say a specific ideal that America embodied that, until the early 20th century, really didn't elsewhere. America was a place wherein, if you worked hard, you could get ahead. Europe was largely stratified by its class system, and America's promise to its newcomers was always that history mattered less than effort, that you could be born poor and die rich, if you were willing to work for it. It was a beautiful vision to a lot of people. Alexis de Tocqueville wrote eloquently on the ideal for his Old World readers. Who wouldn't want to feel that their successes were earned, that their failures could be overcome? Who wouldn't want to be the next Carnegie? The next Vanderbilt? The next Rockefeller?

Unfortunately, within the idea of the American Dream ("If you work hard enough, you will get ahead") is the core of American Blame ("if you don't get ahead, then you didn't work hard enough."). Poverty is still largely treated in this country as a moral failure, and that, I think, is the root of a lot of other problems we have. If you didn't succeed, then it's somehow your fault as an individual, not society's. If you have success, then you unquestionably deserve it, regardless of how you got it. There's no recognition in this country of mitigating circumstances. People gaming the rules aren't seen as cheaters but as clever rogues. People here largely don't aspire to fix the problems; they'd rather be the ones who beat the system. At least in most European countries, people don't blame the poor for being poor. The idea that "they can't help it" is ugly, but it put an obligation on the nobility to take care of the less-fortunate and it helped stop the extremes of rich and poor that we see here, and that's left a social imprint on the way most European societies organize themselves that we just don't have.

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
-- John Steinbeck


----------



## jcfynx (Apr 26, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> The American Dream is what people make for themselves.  Being able to rise up and improve yourself whilst in the pursuit of happiness, and attaining some level of comfort and satisfaction is a dream worth working towards.


 
The entrepreneurial spirit is dead in too many young Americans these days. They are just as quick to notice that there are few job openings ready and waiting for the first person off the street as they are to give up and complain that there is "no work." They will sit on the Internet and do nothing rather than push themselves.

School is too expensive for you? Take out a loan or read some books. Anyone who can use the Internet to type on a forum can get into an American community college. Anyone at all can go to the library and read some books to train them how to do something and start doing it.

The American dream is being misinterpreted in this thread as the right of every American to be wealthy. Rather, it is better cast as the freedom to pursue wealth. The tools to do so are all there, but... 



Lobar said:


> Isn't your first instinct to reach through the monitor and smack him?  Even if he wasn't being deliberately smug about it, at minimum you'd be thinking "prick" or something to that effect.  We're incapable of being happy for others' success anymore unless they're close to us.  And anyone you're doing better than is thinking the same of you, and would like to see you dragged back down to their level.  This is the force that is killing the American Dream.  It's us.


 
..."Crabs in a bucket," or "tall poppy syndrome." We don't support anyone who succeeds. Rather, poor people like to see the successful fail because their insecurity with their own laziness and lack of competence.



Lobar said:


> An attitude adjustment on any one person's part does nothing because he _is_ being held down by those around him, due to manipulation by those with real power.  The culture of resentment must be actively fought against by everyone.
> 
> Where those that have reached some level of success can do their part is by refusing all pretensions of being a "self-made man" and acknowledging that their success has been enabled by access to resources for self-betterment that are not available to all.


 
This is not true. A person's attitude determines whether he'll make something of himself over and above anything else in a sufficiently developed country such as America. The only power others have over you is to squash your own attitude. Everyone has the freedom to carve their own path through life; there is no magic bullet you need. Except in exceptional cases you don't need the approval of some magic man to meet a reasonable goal. The class system is dead except for the bad attitude of poor people. (Read: You did poorly on the SAT exam? The SAT is clearly racist! Can't find a job despite having no skills? The economy is keeping you down!)


----------



## Adelio Altomar (Apr 26, 2011)

Tycho said:


> Also, fuck boomers.


 
This so much. Especially with Thor.


----------



## Lobar (Apr 26, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> The entrepreneurial spirit is dead in too many young Americans these days. They are just as quick to notice that there are few job openings ready and waiting for the first person off the street as they are to give up and complain that there is "no work." They will sit on the Internet and do nothing rather than push themselves.
> 
> School is too expensive for you? Take out a loan or read some books. Anyone who can use the Internet to type on a forum can get into an American community college. Anyone at all can go to the library and read some books to train them how to do something and start doing it.
> 
> ...


 
You're trolling, but this is an accurate representation of the mentality promoted through conservative media to instill hatred of the poor.


----------



## jcfynx (Apr 26, 2011)

Lobar said:


> You're trolling, but this is an accurate representation of the mentality promoted through conservative media to instill hatred of the poor.


 
Disagreeing with someone is not trolling. Poor people in America tend to have a poorer attitude than poor people in other countries. In my home country we revere people who set high expectations for themselves and achieve them.

I'm going to make a safe bet that the majority of the highly literate people of this forum who are educated enough to post thoughts like those expressed here on the Internet are not from poor backgrounds. In fact, most of you seem to be either college-educated, in college, or intending to attend college; only one-third of America will ever receive any sort of post-secondary degree. The vast majority of people who post here are unlikely to encounter real, actual poor people on a regular basis or interact with them in a meaningful way. As someone who can afford to write essays about adorable animals on the Internet, how could you?

Being the top-third best educated of the wealthiest country in the world, the kind of people who post here are not the kind of people who don't have the resources they need to succeed. But they will spend their time on the Internet rather than make themselves employable by improving their skills, personal networks, work history, or personal characteristics. In fact, many young, perfectly capable Americans are content to do none of these things in favor of Farmville. If I were to bet you a coke that the average unemployed young person out of school spends more time on the Internet or playing video games than improving their employability, I do believe you would owe me a coke. ):


----------



## Fay V (Apr 26, 2011)

The american dream never existed, in the same way the the knight's chivalric code never existed. It is an ideal, a literary idea, it was in pure essence only a dream with no grounding in reality. It is a dream which gave people hope and a will to push forward in the hopes that it would all end up alright if you work hard enough, but there was no grounding there. It was something for the media. I don't say media there in a cynical way, but it's made up in the way of the warriors honor. Something that makes people feel good to hear, then they work for it, but originally it was purely made up. 

I disagree with the idea that creativity is lost. We are in a lull, but history repeats itself. They said once we flew a plane there was nothing left to invent. Ha! Art, invention, and creativity comes to a culture in waves. We have romantic shifts, romantic in terms of the literary movement. These movements are marked by a sudden rejection of the status quo and a burst of new creative genres. The big one beget the brilliance of the Shelley's Byron, and the birth of the gothic novel (we also got wordsworth and those other annoying sops, but whatever) since then we've been going into little romantic movements. Anyway don't distress over the loss of creativity just yet. They have been saying that since the dawn of time. Hell they considered Shakespeare to be a hack in his day. The expression of creativity's demise is a mark of the truly uncreative. You can not fathom the leaps and bounds society will make in something so short as a decade, and so you simply believe all has stopped. 
I guarantee in 10 years we will have new art, new expression, new creative genius that sets the generation apart from all others. 

The american dream never existed, but the pure human drive of creativity always has.


Also an interesting side note. My father once calculated the taxes and expenses of the family and compared it to their salaries. He broke it up into hourly figures. He took the necessary expenses for a middle class family: mortgage, taxes, food, insurance, car payments. What he found was that he and my mother, He a college professor, and my mother a nurse practitioner (both decent paying respectable jobs) required for them to work everyday from 9-4 to pay of necessary expenses, and the last hour of work would earn extras. 
that is why the american dream never really existed. It's a self perpetuating stagnation. You want a house, a family, a nice life, and to do so you must work hard, but even with a good job it is nearly impossible to break out of middle class. Yes my family is well off, we also work damn hard for what we have.


----------



## Recel (Apr 26, 2011)

When I have something to write, Fay V writes it down minutes before me. Third time today you psychic... -.-


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> I'm going to make a safe bet that the majority of the highly literate people of this forum who are educated enough to post thoughts like those expressed here on the Internet are not from poor backgrounds. In fact, most of you seem to be either college-educated, in college, or intending to attend college; only one-third of America will ever receive any sort of post-secondary degree. The vast majority of people who post here are unlikely to encounter real, actual poor people on a regular basis or interact with them in a meaningful way. As someone who can afford to write essays about adorable animals on the Internet, how could you?



I come from a middle-low middle class family of five. When I was younger I slept on the couch in a very small home that we did not own. We've since then moved up from lower class to the current middle-low, but I'm not ignorant. I've spent nights homeless, one particularly in Chicago. And I DO see it all around. Lubbock Texas has a awfully high homeless rate, and I've seen the ten towns. 

So don't fucking generalize. I know you said "majority", but even that's pushing it a bit. 



jcfynx said:


> Being the top-third best educated of the wealthiest country in the world, the kind of people who post here are not the kind of people who don't have the resources they need to succeed. But they will spend their time on the Internet rather than make themselves employable by improving their skills, personal networks, work history, or personal characteristics. In fact, many young, perfectly capable Americans are content to do none of these things in favor of Farmville. If I were to bet you a coke that the average unemployed young person out of school spends more time on the Internet or playing video games than improving their employability, I do believe you would owe me a coke. ):


 
I picked up a job last weekend for the upcoming summer so I can live on my own and afford books. I'm also going to have to take out more loan money for school because of lack of government funding, going deeper into debt. 

Yay, living the American Dream. 

Again, don't generalize.


----------



## Tycho (Apr 26, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Disagreeing with someone is not trolling.


 
No, but being jcfynx is


----------



## Rukh_Whitefang (Apr 26, 2011)

Why should anyone even care about the "American Dream"? It means absolutely nothing to me.


----------



## Lobar (Apr 26, 2011)

Rukh_Whitefang said:


> Why should anyone even care about the "American Dream"? It means absolutely nothing to me.


 
BECUZ I GOTS JEE-ZUSS IN MAH HART

go away


----------



## Azure (Apr 26, 2011)

honestly, id rather be poor than middle class


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> honestly, id rather be poor than middle class


 
I tried telling my family this, that I wouldn't mind living in a shit little apartment with the bare necessities. I'd be fine with that. They then proceeded to make me feel like shit by saying how much I'd be letting down everyone and how I'd never have any standards and blah blah blah.

So now, here I am in college, with still no honest fucking clue as to what I'm doing in life.


----------



## Fay V (Apr 26, 2011)

Azure said:


> honestly, id rather be poor than middle class


 why? I don't like the (pardon my cliche) rat race, but one thing about middle class is an education grants automatic middle class. Most teachers are actually technically poor, but are in the middle class due to their education level. 
Personally I am happy to live simply. I don't want a house and a white picket fence and what have you. I have a one room apartment and second hand xbox, 360 tv, and so on. I am happy.

but in the end I always want an education. I guess that's just my personal value.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Apr 26, 2011)

Fay V said:


> Personally I am happy to live simply. I don't want a house and a white picket fence and what have you. I have a one room apartment and second hand xbox, 360 tv, and so on. I am happy.


 
Just wanted to highlight this.  Most people would be content simply making the cost of living with some extra spending money to either save up or use for other things.  One does not have to live lavishly to attain happiness, something that might have not been readily apparent in my previous posts.



			
				Lobar said:
			
		

> Where those that have reached some level of success can do their part is by refusing all pretensions of being a "self-made man" and acknowledging that their success has been enabled by access to resources for self-betterment that are not available to all.



However acknowledging only goes so far, and more often than not the institutions which provide individuals with the tools they need often don't need the kinds of financial or other help that they are given.  I do my part on a constant basis by offering my services to the local high school to help teach kids how to use video and editing equipment.  Most in my field are more than willing to teach someone who is just as willing to learn.

However, as has been seen numerous times over my four years of college, many students who are given an extra opportunity via loans and scholarships for being underprivileged waste their time and efforts by not paying attention in class, not doing work, or putting in extra time to edit or produce content for their classes or the university's network.  As I mentioned, giving someone the tools doesn't mean they are going to utilize them.



			
				Azure said:
			
		

> I just get so frustrated with people who think that life is made of instant fulfillment. "I want to be a famous insert whatever when I get out of college" "Well, you'll have to put lots of hard work in effort into that to make it work" "I WANT IT NOW WHINE WHINE WHINE". The journey is more important than the destination.



Well one of the great things about the program I'm in is that we do get a chance to talk to professionals who are living the kinds of lives we're aspiring for.  And it's not all glamorous as many people find out.  People want to be anchors, but they don't understand that anchors need to be able to write and edit packages for the news.  Others want to be big shot movie producers, but that requires a lot of degrading work as a PA to get to that point.  And this fails to mention that personal lives are almost non-existent and relationships are often created out of convenience rather than attraction.

Sure you COULD be rich and famous, but as they say, it's lonely at the top.

For the record, I never said that I wanted to be famous.  I just want to be able to produce feature programs documenting sports culture and maybe teach on the side.  I'd be cool with that.


----------



## Aetius (Apr 27, 2011)

The American Dream mostly applies to those who had nothing to begin with, nor have a chance of achieving anything in their geographic position (Gadaffist Libya is a good example)

Some see the United States as a place where petty corruption, authoritarianism, as well as nepotism would be less rampant and not effect their chances of at least raising their living standards.
As a result of this, those people see the United States as a country where they can actually accumulate some sort of wealth and effect their conditions. 

This idea morphs the United States into some sort of promised land, where the land is filled with Milk and Honey, and that is where the American Dream comes in.

Why not dream when you have nothing?


----------



## Tycho (Apr 27, 2011)

Crusader Mike said:


> Why not dream when you have nothing?


 
Because while you're busy chasing dreams everyone else is working within the bounds of reality and accomplishing things?


----------



## Teto (Apr 27, 2011)

I remember doing a section of my Modern Studies course in High School a few years ago. It was on America. Did some stuff on the American Dream and we all had to write essays on why it's bullshit, basically.

America still believes in that?


----------



## Duck_Armada (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm Living MY American Dream right now.

Job I love and am happy to go to work at every day.  Check

A marriage to my best friend, based on mutual trust and love?  Check

Friends worth trusting with my life?  Check

Happiness and the means to defend it?  Check.

It IS possible to achieve.  

Hmm, it seems that there is a tornado outside.  Be back later.


----------



## Azure (Apr 27, 2011)

Fay V said:


> why? I don't like the (pardon my cliche) rat race, but one thing about middle class is an education grants automatic middle class. Most teachers are actually technically poor, but are in the middle class due to their education level.
> Personally I am happy to live simply. I don't want a house and a white picket fence and what have you. I have a one room apartment and second hand xbox, 360 tv, and so on. I am happy.
> 
> but in the end I always want an education. I guess that's just my personal value.


Yeah, I guess I don't equate education with social status, I'm speaking monetarily only. I value education highly as well, but I watched my family struggle just to maintain monthly expenses, even though we were well off at times. All that work for bullshit, at least, a lot of bullshit I don't need. I value a comforting lifestyle, not a comfortable one.


----------



## denkaral (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't 100% know all the comments people have made since OP's, but I disagree.

I strongly believe that the United States gives opportunities to those who really try. While yes, we are a disillusioned generation that's seen a failure of a government, I'm always thankful that I live here rather than a country where my family would be too poor to send me to college (although we're struggling anyways) or the biggest problem in my life is around health.

I feel that the unexplored part of the dream is the unexplored realm of possibility for people to improve and get better. And by that to create and improve the world further. Now this does sound extremly optimistic, I don't think we're at a point that the bottom is the only option.

Um.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Apr 29, 2011)

I always hated it when people talked about the "American Dream," even when I was a flag humping republican. It's so vague. It's like you're suppose automatically know what it is.


----------



## InflatedSnake (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm from Australia, does this affect me or should I go to a different thread?


----------



## Mayfurr (Apr 29, 2011)

InflatedSnake said:


> I'm from Australia, does this affect me or should I go to a different thread?


 
Nope, the "American Dream" doesn't affect Australians or New Zealanders - you see, we're _awake_


----------



## RedSavage (Apr 29, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> Nope, the "American Dream" doesn't affect Australians or New Zealanders - you see, we're _awake_


 
Oh! I see what you did there....


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Apr 29, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> Nope, the "American Dream" doesn't affect Australians or New Zealanders - you see, we're _awake_


 
Well you guys tend to get shaken up moar than Americans do.

Hohoho.


----------



## jcfynx (Apr 29, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Well you guys tend to get shaken up moar than Americans do.
> 
> Hohoho.


 
Japan joke


----------



## Azure (Apr 29, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Well you guys tend to get shaken up moar than Americans do.
> 
> Hohoho.


 
It's never too soon. Good timing.


----------



## Mayfurr (Apr 30, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Well you guys tend to get shaken up moar than Americans do.



That's certainly true - it's a consequence of the boundary of the Pacific plate running right through the length of the country.


----------



## Calemeyr (Apr 30, 2011)

What do you mean by anymore? It's been this way for decades! So please, give in to your inner nerd and become scientists who do mad science!!! That way America will rule the world...with science!!!


----------



## CannonFodder (Apr 30, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Well you guys tend to get shaken up moar than Americans do.
> 
> Hohoho.


 I see what you did there.


----------



## virus (May 1, 2011)

The American Dream was never achievable in the first place. It was produced, designed and directed by rich greedy upper class men who hated their lowers anyways. 

It still exists anyways, it's about everything you own being expendable. Replacing everything with the newest, THE BEST, THE LATEST AND GREATEST. It's about convenience, feasibility, getting everything with a push of a button. Fuck your old 4 month cell phone you need the NEWEST one. Here common dumb American sign your fucking life away to a phone contract you'll cancel in another 6 months for another new phone. Did we mention if you cancel your contract early you have to pay us extra? Don't worry we'll sign up to credit cards you'll max out too!

It's about fattening you up with McDonalds, Burger King and Taco Bell. Removing most needed basic functions so they can have other people do them for you. All you have to do is work. But wait there's a catch to that. We never increased minimum wage so you have to work 2 or 3 jobs! That American Dream looks great doesn't it middle classer? Gee golly if you want to call me, feel free to use the number I pre-programed into your cell phone I own the company too. Enjoy your 2 kids and wife which is cheating on you.

This is the American Dream. It's not about everyone being successful and never was but rather you being the 15 minutes of fame and the other 45 minutes is taking most the profit away with them.


----------



## ceacar99 (May 1, 2011)

virus, i'd just like to point out one thing, if you jack up minimum wage you do not improve people's lives one single bit, you just shake em up a little.

basic economic concept. money is worthless by itself, money is a medium of transfer in a trade like oil is to a gearbox. simply having more money doesnt change anything(its called inflation).

when we talk about wage control we are attempting to improve people's access to goods. however, the abundance of a good determines how much there is available for each person as well as the percentage of the population that even has access. money and the price of each good is a self regulating system that determines the distribution of goods. it determines the portion of the population that has access as well as how much each person can have. wages are part of the price system. the final purpose of the price system is to provide feedback about the product such as its total supply.

example: in the 70's when gas prices soared the government set price controls. however, instead of everyone having gas because they could afford it they just could not find gas to buy. that incident demonstrates how the system of money and price tried to regulate who got gas, as well as telling producers and consumers that there was a shortfall. simply shutting down the system of price, or going around it didnt change a fucking damn thing.

adjusting minimum wage is exactly the same as a price control, the final cost of goods and services is influenced by the cost of labor. 

the american dream died when my people started thinking a business exists to make money. a business exists to provide a livelihood for its employees by meeting the needs or desires of others. its no wonder we are going down the shitter, most americans cant even understand the fundamentals of "economics". as a nation we are burning down our industries and every year we grow poorer because we simply are producing less goods. all because americans think businesses are evil and just trying to get rich at the expense of others.


----------



## Mayfurr (May 1, 2011)

ceacar99 said:


> adjusting minimum wage is exactly the same as a price control, the final cost of goods and services is influenced by the cost of labor.



Except that the significant difference between minimum wage and price controls is that workers, unlike "goods" require a minimum  amount of resources for survival and there is a fixed amount of time per day in which a person can be productive. Minimum wage exists to prevent the scenario where a person has to work all the hours possible in a day and STILL not make enough to provide for themselves and their family.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (May 1, 2011)

ceacar99 said:


> the american dream died when my people started thinking a business exists to make money. a business exists to provide a livelihood for its employees by meeting the needs or desires of others. its no wonder we are going down the shitter, most americans cant even understand the fundamentals of "economics". as a nation we are burning down our industries and every year we grow poorer because we simply are producing less goods. all because americans think businesses are evil and just trying to get rich at the expense of others.


 
Okay, I basically agree with you. Yes, "my people" (are you Native or something? What the fuck?) need to realize, there's *businesses*, which exist to provide goods and services to people who can't get those themselves in exchange for money with which to obtain the goods and services _they_ need to function as a *business*. And then there's a house you raise a family in. When people, and it's almost always only Libertarians that do this, when they conflate the two, it sounds really sick, wrong and fetishistic. Yes, Wal Mart is totally the exact same fucking thing as where you were raised and where you raise your own family, hell, _it is_ a family! And like any family, you should be able to join or be disowned from it for any reason or no reason, and you should belong to multiple families, and you shouldn't look at your wage as something you've truly earned as much as an allowance you've been given, also our company policy now includes ritual human sacrifices just because our CEO gets turned on by that sort of thing so divide yourselves into 10s and draw straws or something.

You know who else had a family anyone could join? *Charles Manson!*


----------



## ceacar99 (May 1, 2011)

Mayfurr said:


> Except that the significant difference between minimum wage and price controls is that workers, unlike "goods" require a minimum  amount of resources for survival and there is a fixed amount of time per day in which a person can be productive. Minimum wage exists to prevent the scenario where a person has to work all the hours possible in a day and STILL not make enough to provide for themselves and their family.



 and a car engine doesnt require a minimum amount of resources to produce? a human being is a product like anything else. you put in resources(money) and he turns out laybor to produce other resources. in fact labor is THE MOST expensive product as exemplified by this classical business plan(courtesy of milton friedman renowned economist): workers gain 80% of the money in the sale of a product, 10% goes to rent and overhead, 6% goes to taxes, and 4% gets saved. 

mayfur, a minimum wage can be important to have, and adjusted for inflation. however, minimum wage will ALWAYS mark the lowest rung on the ladder of income and in reality thats the purpose of minimum wage. as resources become more scarce less people have access and since minimum wage marks the bottom it is minimum wage earners that will loose access first. 

something that wealth distribution people such as yourself cannot grasp is that there is ONLY so much stuff in the world, meaning ONLY so many people can have some, or there is only so much per person. if we took all the money from the top 1% (90% of the money) and gave it to the other 99% they wouldnt be too much better off. there is only so much clothing, food, housing, medicine and practitioners in the world. meaning even if the bulk of the population had more green slips of paper they still could have only so much of each.

mayfur, money is worthless, its just useless slips of paper or numbers in a computer. if you want to improve people's lives then help the world economy produce more of the basic needs goods such as food and medicine. the more of something there is, the more people can have access, its not a hard concept.




Wolf-Bone said:


> Okay, I basically agree with you. Yes, "my people" (are you Native or something? What the fuck?) need to realize, there's *businesses*, which exist to provide goods and services to people who can't get those themselves in exchange for money with which to obtain the goods and services _they_ need to function as a *business*. And then there's a house you raise a family in. When people, and it's almost always only Libertarians that do this, when they conflate the two, it sounds really sick, wrong and fetishistic. Yes, Wal Mart is totally the exact same fucking thing as where you were raised and where you raise your own family, hell, _it is_ a family! And like any family, you should be able to join or be disowned from it for any reason or no reason, and you should belong to multiple families, and you shouldn't look at your wage as something you've truly earned as much as an allowance you've been given, also our company policy now includes ritual human sacrifices just because our CEO gets turned on by that sort of thing so divide yourselves into 10s and draw straws or something.
> 
> You know who else had a family anyone could join? *Charles Manson!*


 
i dont confuse walmart as a family. however, walmart still exists for the same purpose that all businesses since the dawn of time exist, to provide a means of living for the employees and the employer. at one point in human history we were all essentially in business for ourselves. a weaver made clothes so she could get food and housing and so on. today we form groups because its far more efficient. instead of the weaver working by herself she now works in the factory. instead of meeting the needs of a hundred people the weaver meets the needs of 10,000. 

its the same shit going on, just a shiny new wrapper and well... we are a hell of a lot more productive today. thats it. think about it woflbone, why do you go to work everyday? to feed yourself of course.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (May 1, 2011)

ceacar99 said:
			
		

> think about it woflbone, why do you go to work everyday? to feed yourself of course.



At this point, honestly the only reason I'm even still looking for a job is because our society are a bunch of pansies and won't just imprison and/or execute people like me for some bullshit charge like "witchcraft" like they used to do in the old days, which would honestly be a blessing some days. I think I see your point, society _was_ better back then, because if you wanted to opt out of life, there were no shortage of sick sadists willing to help you out with that and all you had to do to earn your spot in the gallows was dis Caesar or something.


----------



## Smart_Cookie (May 1, 2011)

ceacar99 said:


> if we took all the money from the top 1% (90% of the money) and gave it to the other 99% they wouldnt be too much better off.



I see you're not aware of just how wide the disparity here is.

In America alone, The top 1% make 25% of the total income.

The bottom 20% make 3.5% of the total income.

A 10% tax on the richest 1% alone could almost double the standard of living of the bottom 20%. 

For that matter, Why would we take money from the top 1% to give to people already above the average? Even if we gave that 10% tax to the bottom 50%, it would significantly improve their lives.

Conclusion: You are bad at math.


----------



## Wolf-Bone (May 1, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> In America alone, The top 1% make 25% of the total income.
> 
> The bottom 20% make 3.5% of the total income.
> 
> ...


 
The first motherfucker(s) that, obviously lying through their teeth when they do it, come to guys like me, put an assault rifle in our hands and say "you want a job, you want housing, you want food and clothes, you want to be covered from cradle to grave, we got your back, if you just go kill them motherfuckers over there", I'll do it, just because most likely I'll get killed in the process and won't have to live to see either side of the revolution betray it.


----------



## ceacar99 (May 2, 2011)

mojotech..... you fail to see the exact reason why taking all their money would be pointless. MONEY IS WORTHLESS. can you eat green slips of paper? i suppose if you were really desperate you could burn them to keep warm, but they are very impractical for that purpose, as well as for clothing....

the tope 1% of the society has 25% of all the money, however, they DO NOT have and use 25% of all the food, clothing, healthcare, housing, and basic entertainment items such as dvds and tvs and books. 

if you took all that money the top 1% had and gave it to the rest of society, THERE STILL WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH CLOTHES, FOOD, HOUSING, AND MEDICINE for everyone to live well off. 

people not having basic necessities or even luxuries is a sign that there is a shortage of such things. simple reality buddy, the more abundant something is, the more people can have it. the less there is the less people can have a share. money only exists to make it far easier to exchange something you have a lot of, or the ability to make(or do) for something you need. thats all money does buuuuudy.


----------



## Lobar (May 2, 2011)

ceacar99 said:


> mojotech..... you fail to see the exact reason why taking all their money would be pointless. MONEY IS WORTHLESS. can you eat green slips of paper? i suppose if you were really desperate you could burn them to keep warm, but they are very impractical for that purpose, as well as for clothing....
> 
> the tope 1% of the society has 25% of all the money, however, they DO NOT have and use 25% of all the food, clothing, healthcare, housing, and basic entertainment items such as dvds and tvs and books.
> 
> ...


 
There would be enough goods for everyone to live well off because the new demand created by returning the wealth at the top back to the bottom would motivate new production.  Basic economics.

Also, the top 1% now owns 42.7% of the financial wealth of this country as of 2007.  The bottom 80% own just 7%.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 2, 2011)

Wolf-Bone said:


> The first motherfucker(s) that, obviously lying through their teeth when they do it, come to guys like me, put an assault rifle in our hands and say "you want a job, you want housing, you want food and clothes, you want to be covered from cradle to grave, we got your back, if you just go kill them motherfuckers over there", I'll do it, just because most likely I'll get killed in the process and won't have to live to see either side of the revolution betray it.


 

no one in this thread knows what they are talking about, and you're all interpreting an IDEA in a million different ways.

PICK one. then explain why its bullshit. Otherwise, you're just saying its bullshit because, I think this is what it is. Therefore its retarded.

But Wolf-Bone has the Idea that we are like the soviet union.


----------



## RedSavage (May 3, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> no one in this thread knows what they are talking about, and *you're all interpreting an IDEA in a million different ways.*
> 
> PICK one. then explain why its bullshit. Otherwise, you're just saying its bullshit because, I think this is what it is. Therefore its retarded.


 
That's the whole idea, really. Just generalized discussion on the different ideals, visions, and definitions. Chill out.


----------



## ceacar99 (May 3, 2011)

> There would be enough goods for everyone to live well off because the new demand created by returning the wealth at the top back to the bottom would motivate new production. Basic economics.
> 
> Also, the top 1% now owns 42.7% of the financial wealth of this country as of 2007. The bottom 80% own just 7%.



um.... thats like saying "if we print more money and give it to the common people then the economy will pick up because people will have more money to spend!!!!!!1". its called INFLATION, when the amount of currency in play in the market place grows out of proportion to the amount of goods and services the value of the money is degraded by a equal amount of the disparity. in other words, if there is more money but the same amount of crap people charge more. 

its like when north carolina used tobacco as a form of currency. men bought everything, even wives with it. however, the state ended that practice eventually because EVERYONE started growing tobacco and the inflation got so bad you might have to take a whole wagonfull to buy a dress for your daughter. 

look, that 42% of that wealth isnt in "active" play in the marketplace. hell, most of it isnt even money, its assets like buildings and ships. big expensive things. that 42% of the wealth doesnt represent goods a normal person like you would use. quite simply there is not enough goods that the average person uses in the entire world to match all that wealth that the top 1% has. so, if you give the rest of that population that wealth you'll essentially cause 40 some percent inflation and start at square one.



> But Wolf-Bone has the Idea that we are like the soviet union.



not tooooooo far off sadly. looking at the distribution of wealth and power its about the same. "wealth" generally marks a family in this country as being part of the "leadership". like someone in charge of a massive corporation like bill gates. the large "wealth" they have ensures that if there is ever a shortage of a basic needs product they still have access even when most everyone else doesnt.

take soviet union. the people who ate well were the ones in charge of a factory, a political institution and so on. even when there were massive food, clothing and housing shortages the leadership did not go without. the lowest ranks in society suffered first and it went up from there. 

further than that in both societies the common man more or less has to do what he's told if he expects to get fed.

and finally in our system the price structure is our self regulating system that ensure the "leadership" gets their needs met first. in the soviet system the government regulated it. in both systems the outcome is the same. you do what your told and you get fed, and if there is a shortage the people in charge always get their meals and you'll go without.


----------



## jcfynx (May 3, 2011)

ITT furconomics, I am amused and delighted by this new field of study.

I would like to order your informational pamphlet.


----------



## RedSavage (May 3, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> ITT furconomics, I am amused and delighted by this new field of study.
> 
> I would like to order your informational pamphlet.


 
Thank you for you interest. Please wait 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 3, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> That's the whole idea, really. Just generalized discussion on the different ideals, visions, and definitions. *Chill out*.


 

Hard to with the batshit "FUCK THE BOOMERS!" line in here.


----------



## Azure (May 3, 2011)

I ain't read much, but yeah, fuck the Boomers. They're easy to blame for a billion reasons. Them and Reagan.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 4, 2011)

Azure said:


> I ain't read much, but yeah, fuck the Boomers. They're easy to blame for a billion reasons. Them and Reagan.


 
Start listing.


----------



## Lobar (May 4, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Start listing.


 
A (n almost certainly incomplete, as it's from memory) list of all the shit that's Reagan's (and by extension, his constituency's, which was primarily made up of Boomers) fault: The idea that government is necessarily harmful by definition, the massive national debt, retardedly low taxes on the rich, the myth of supply-side economics ("There Is No Alternative"), fucking over unions, the corruption of Wall Street, out-of-control military spending, dog-whistle racism, ghettos, the War on Drugs, the exploding prison population, the erosion of public education, the shredding of the social net, AIDS, crack, Osama bin Laden, the Iran-Contra affair, the "I do not recall" defense, nearly triggering WW3 with a Russia that was already collapsing on itself (prompting them to create a literal doomsday device straight out of Dr. Strangelove that still exists today), and dicking with Carter's international diplomacy while he was still in office.


----------



## Commiecomrade (May 4, 2011)

OP would love "Of Mice and Men."


----------



## Octa (May 4, 2011)

Don't know if this was already said, but there never was an American dream. It was always just a thinly veiled attempt at generating an over-inflated sense of nationalism. Your best worrying about your own dreams.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 4, 2011)

Lobar said:


> A (n almost certainly incomplete, as it's from memory) list of all the shit that's Reagan's (and by extension, his constituency's, which was primarily made up of Boomers) fault: The idea that government is necessarily harmful by definition, the massive national debt, retardedly low taxes on the rich, the myth of supply-side economics ("There Is No Alternative"), fucking over unions, the corruption of Wall Street, out-of-control military spending, dog-whistle racism, ghettos, the War on Drugs, the exploding prison population, the erosion of public education, the shredding of the social net, AIDS, crack, Osama bin Laden, the Iran-Contra affair, the "I do not recall" defense, nearly triggering WW3 with a Russia that was already collapsing on itself (prompting them to create a literal doomsday device straight out of Dr. Strangelove that still exists today), and dicking with Carter's international diplomacy while he was still in office.



You're lumping a generation, with politics and world events that predate "boomers" with consequences/events that happened DURING the boomers as a result to previous world events.
Reagan?

How old were you during Reagan? Or Carter for that matter?


----------



## RedSavage (May 5, 2011)

Commiecomrade said:


> OP would love "Of Mice and Men."


 
You think so? I'll have to look it up.


----------



## Azure (May 5, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> You're lumping a generation, with politics and world events that predate "boomers" with consequences/events that happened DURING the boomers as a result to previous world events.
> Reagan?
> 
> How old were you during Reagan? Or Carter for that matter?


 Uh, no. THEY shaped that world. They voted for him. THEY put ideas on his plate. And now all THEY mostly do is sit around, take out sub prime loans and reverse mortgages, and eat up all the healthcare while voting systematically to deny it to others. How OLD were you? I lived through the Reagan Presidency. There probably wasn't a worse fucking man ever birthed, and he was the BOOMER CHAMPION!! All their dreams come true. Bush 1 was just a weak follow up.


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (May 5, 2011)

Lobar said:


> A (n almost certainly incomplete, as it's from memory) list of all the shit that's Reagan's (and by extension, his constituency's, which was primarily made up of Boomers) fault: The idea that government is necessarily harmful by definition, the massive national debt, retardedly low taxes on the rich, the myth of supply-side economics ("There Is No Alternative"), fucking over unions, the corruption of Wall Street, out-of-control military spending, dog-whistle racism, ghettos, the War on Drugs, the exploding prison population, the erosion of public education, the shredding of the social net, AIDS, crack, Osama bin Laden, the Iran-Contra affair, the "I do not recall" defense, nearly triggering WW3 with a Russia that was already collapsing on itself (prompting them to create a literal doomsday device straight out of Dr. Strangelove that still exists today), and dicking with Carter's international diplomacy while he was still in office.


 

Whoa. Don't be talking about the evils of others when you refused to condemn the killing of a 13 year old boy. And don't say "blame the concept of nobility" like you did last time, because that has got to be the pissest poorest excuse I have seen used by a communist apologist to avoid acknowledging the atrocities caused by the Bolsheviks. But I know you won't really care, because it's like talking to a close-minded, southern, fundamentalist, Christian who can't take off the rose colored glasses.


----------



## Commiecomrade (May 5, 2011)

CoyoteCaliente said:


> You think so? I'll have to look it up.


 
I just did a test talking about nothing other than how much of a pessimist John Steinbeck was considering the American Dream.


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (May 5, 2011)

Azure said:


> Uh, no. THEY shaped that world. They voted for him. THEY put ideas on his plate. And now all THEY mostly do is sit around, take out sub prime loans and reverse mortgages, and eat up all the healthcare while voting systematically to deny it to others. How OLD were you? I lived through the Reagan Presidency. There probably wasn't a worse fucking man ever birthed, and he was the BOOMER CHAMPION!! All their dreams come true. Bush 1 was just a weak follow up.


 
Behead those that besmirch the name of the Prophet Reagan! Ronaldhu-AKBAR!


----------



## Azure (May 5, 2011)

ShÃ nwÃ ng said:


> Behead those that besmirch the name of the Prophet Reagan! Ronaldhu-AKBAR!


 Ronald Wilson Reagan? 666? Black Jesus? 9/11 Truthers? Sportsmanship? Books? Fuck Yeah!


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 5, 2011)

I think Azure has posters of Micheal Moore in his room :V


----------



## OssumPawesome (May 5, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> I think Azure has posters of Micheal Moore in his room :V


 
And I think you're being an idiot.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 5, 2011)

Exunod said:


> And I think you're being an idiot.


 

Welcome to the thread little man.

Would you like a poptart?


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (May 5, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> I think Azure has posters of Micheal Moore in his room :V


 
No fatties.


----------



## OssumPawesome (May 5, 2011)

MaverickCowboy said:


> Welcome to the thread little man.
> 
> Would you like a poptart?



Oh, I'm sorry. I guess we're done making charicatures of political archetypes.


----------



## MaverickCowboy (May 5, 2011)

Exunod said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. I guess we're done making charicatures of political archetypes.


 

I honestly don't see your problem. People do it all the time on this forum. Lighten the fuck up.


----------



## ceacar99 (May 5, 2011)

Lobar said:


> A (n almost certainly incomplete, as it's from memory) list of all the shit that's Reagan's (and by extension, his constituency's, which was primarily made up of Boomers) fault: The idea that government is necessarily harmful by definition, the massive national debt, retardedly low taxes on the rich, the myth of supply-side economics ("There Is No Alternative"), fucking over unions, the corruption of Wall Street, out-of-control military spending, dog-whistle racism, ghettos, the War on Drugs, the exploding prison population, the erosion of public education, the shredding of the social net, AIDS, crack, Osama bin Laden, the Iran-Contra affair, the "I do not recall" defense, nearly triggering WW3 with a Russia that was already collapsing on itself (prompting them to create a literal doomsday device straight out of Dr. Strangelove that still exists today), and dicking with Carter's international diplomacy while he was still in office.


 
starting from the top:
*-overbearing* control CAN be harmful, keep in mind the soviet union collapsed under their debt before we did.
*-massive* national debt is mostly the cause of social programs. the military and other such "ultra conservitive baby boomer bullshit" doesnt actually even suck up half the budget. 
*-i doubt* you actually know how the rich are taxed. you are probably just spitting what everyone on tv says
*-"myth* of supply side economics", well i dont know what that means honestly so i'll reassert people cant have what doesnt exist. if there isnt enough bread for everyone some people will go without. now, its possible to achieve overproduction, one of the theories for the great depression blames over production.
*-when* was the last time a union asked for something reasonable like better work conditions? they just demand more money now. as stated before after paying the workers, and overhead and the feds a business is LUCKY to have 2% profit. the workers take 80% of it. so unions are USUALLY bullshit fighting for the last 2% and usually screw over other workers instead
*-wall* street being corrupted, well its better then the government being just as corrupt too like the soviet union.
*-again* military spending only accounts to a quarter of the FEDERAL budget. now, interesting note is that represents 10% of our gdp. considering that social security and medicare are one half of our federal budget we can assert that the two largest social programs in our country suck up 20% of our gdp.
*-this* country has allways been and allways will be racist. 
*-the* worst ghettos in this country can find the root of their problem in the public housing programs. bleeding hearts wanted them to have low cost public housing using tax dollars. what they failed to realize is that the "projects" collected the poorest people with the worst attitudes together. this DOOMS their children to bad schools and an environment without a positive role model.


ok, so it kinda goes on like that. now, i'm no longer a ultra "right wing nutbag" if you will. i've actually evolved into a very flexible person, as evidenced by my arguments in the thread about death row. however, i do stand by a lot of the economic and social ideas on the right wing. i mean after all your aguments against them are the equivilant of "if we print more money and give it to the poor they will kick start the economy!!!!!"

difference between me and most right wingers is that i now realize that the differences between the united states and communist states like the soviet union are largely superficial.

*added*
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
look at that page, in terms of income tax the rich pay more than twice what the average american does. low taxes for the rich my ass.....

short term capital gains(another way the rich make money) is set at 35% as well. the only way the rich get a "tax cut" is if they invest long term in our economy, then they only get taxed 15% of their return. by having the long term tax lower we can help guide them into long term development of the economy, not just short schemes.


----------



## yiffytimesnews (May 6, 2011)

The american dream died about 20 years ago


----------



## Smart_Cookie (May 6, 2011)

ceacar99 said:


> the tope 1% of the society has 25% of all the money, however, they DO NOT have and use 25% of all the food, clothing, healthcare, housing, and basic entertainment items such as dvds and tvs and books.


 
over 50% of food in the country goes to waste, and that's with Americans in general having overeating issues. The other stuff is also not in a shortage by any stretch in the US, it's just that the abjectly poor, unsurprisingly, can't afford them. As for DVDs and whatnot, there are enough televisions in the US that every household could have 3. Items like DVDs and Books are even cheaper to produce, especially since most could be directly distributed through the internet anyway.

And again, nobody wants to take ALL the wealth from the top 1% like you keep talking about. If we just rounded that 42.7% down to 40% and gave the rest to the bottom 20%, we'd increase their wealth from 7% of gdp to almost 10% of gdp. That's a 35% increase for, at worst by your (overexaggerated but let's just roll with it for sake of argument) calculations, a 2.7% inflation bump for one year.


----------



## jcfynx (May 7, 2011)

Mojotech said:


> over 50% of food in the country goes to waste, and that's with Americans in general having overeating issues. The other stuff is also not in a shortage by any stretch in the US, it's just that the abjectly poor, unsurprisingly, can't afford them. As for DVDs and whatnot, there are enough televisions in the US that every household could have 3. Items like DVDs and Books are even cheaper to produce, especially since most could be directly distributed through the internet anyway.
> 
> And again, nobody wants to take ALL the wealth from the top 1% like you keep talking about. If we just rounded that 42.7% down to 40% and gave the rest to the bottom 20%, we'd increase their wealth from 7% of gdp to almost 10% of gdp. That's a 35% increase for, at worst by your (overexaggerated but let's just roll with it for sake of argument) calculations, a 2.7% inflation bump for one year.


 
Come on frawg those monkeys would just spend it all up on gettoe fabulous hoochies anyways.


----------



## OssumPawesome (May 7, 2011)

Holy shit I can't believe I forgot to add a relevant link to the onion.


----------



## RedSavage (May 7, 2011)

Exunod said:


> Holy shit I can't believe I forgot to add a relevant link to the onion.


 
Haha! i love how everyone was all *yaaawn* American dream? Dead? Big whoop.


----------

