# I Hate TF2



## RaptorianOne (Jun 29, 2011)

I must be the only furry on earth who does not like TF2. However, I'll be the first to admit that this is largely because I'm very bad at it. Would someone be willing to mentor me in the art of not sucking at this game? :\


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## SirRob (Jun 29, 2011)

So you hate TF2, but you'd like it if you weren't bad at it.


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## fiero-the-cat (Jun 29, 2011)

Well, TF2 is something that you can suck at one aspect, but do well in another aspect. What class do you play as usually?


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## Delta (Jun 29, 2011)

Pretty much, the first step to being good at the game is to not care about being good at the game.


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## SirRob (Jun 29, 2011)

Winds said:


> Pretty much, the first step to being good at the game is to not care about being good at the game.


What are you talking about. I'm pretty sure all the top ranking players of any game care about being good.


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## CerbrusNL (Jun 29, 2011)

But you ave to get close to that, first, rob.
And that's done by not careing for your score, but learning everything about -the game- itself V)


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## SirRob (Jun 29, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> And that's done by not careing for your score, but learning everything about -the game- itself V)


But don't those two things go hand in hand?


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## Takun (Jun 29, 2011)

Dude I used to get like 4 or 5 points a map with the scout.   Then I just played him over and over and over til I got good.


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## Conker (Jun 29, 2011)

RaptorianOne said:


> *I must be the only furry on earth who does not like TF2.* However, I'll be the first to admit that this is largely because I'm very bad at it. Would someone be willing to mentor me in the art of not sucking at this game? :\


 Yup, you probably are. You are that special of a snowflake!

My advice: start with the soldier. The game is balanced so you aren't really a rocket noob, but it's the easiest class to get used to and hell, using rocket launchers is always really fun. Once you get better at aiming then the other classes will fall into place.


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## Stratto the Hawk (Jun 29, 2011)

Takun said:


> Dude I used to get like 4 or 5 points a map with the scout.   Then I just played him over and over and over til I got good.


 Currently playing the Spy again (I used to play on the 360 before I got bored and then learned that they wouldn't be adding anything to it). I have to say, it's amazing how many times I've been shot at by people when not playing a spy, and then I switch, and suddenly people just don't seem to care. I've literally run into a group of enemies and back-stabbed their Engineer right in front of everyone, ran away, came back, and killed another enemy, all within the span of about 30 seconds. It's mind-boggling. ovO

But of course I'm only getting my feet wet so it gets better right? Right???


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## CerbrusNL (Jun 29, 2011)

They kinda do indeed, rob. But if you're just focused on points, points, points, you're not gonna get a lot.
Just play, try each class, get a feel for them, and what situation you can use them in. Once you've got a (few) favourite class(es), just, well, play. You'll get better in time.

Oh,

You learn more from getting your ass handed to you, than from steamrolling a bunch of newbs. If a team's on a winning spree, you could try to tip the balance.

(Don't get me wrong, steamrolling is fun  I'll upload a screenshot in a few hours)


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jun 29, 2011)

i don't like fps games in general, tf2 falls under this catergory, also i never played a pokemon game other than pokemon. There I 1-uped your specialness, tada.....
also you don't hate the game if it's because you suck at it. you hate your abilities (and or lack of) in the game and don't want to play it because of that.


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## Stratto the Hawk (Jun 29, 2011)

Alastair Snowpaw said:


> *also i never played a pokemon game other than pokemon*.


 Does. Not. Compute. ERROR. _*EXTERMINATE!*_ *head explodes*


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## CannonFodder (Jun 29, 2011)

Try each class and see which one you're best at.


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## Dr. Durr (Jun 29, 2011)

I like TF2, but I find Team Fortress Classic more addictive.
Most likely due to all my crappy Spy tactics in TF2 work in TFC.
They seem to be more gullible in TFC.
But I play TF2 every once in a while.


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## MaskedJackal (Jun 29, 2011)

TF2, like any game, requires practice. Just keep at it and you'll improve for sure.

If you're looking for a place to start, try the soldier class. He's very well-rounded and yields experience with both projectiles and hitscan. He requires you to play smart, but is durable enough to provide some room for error.

Me, I'm a scout player. I remember when I struggled to get five frags a map. I play competitively now, but I still have a lot to learn. There will always be room for improvement.


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## CynicalCirno (Jun 29, 2011)

I love how furries always exclude themselves out of the genral audience.

I don't really like this game, and I certainly don't like it's company and the people who monitor it, and their decisions about this game.
Although, I'm good enough, or rather, due the recent change in the price of the game, people are becoming bad.

Rather than trying each class out, try what you should always be - a team player, in team fortress.


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## Takun (Jun 29, 2011)

Satellite One said:


> I love how furries always exclude themselves out of the genral audience.
> 
> I don't really like this game, and I certainly don't like it's company and the people who monitor it, and their decisions about this game.
> Although, I'm good enough, or rather, due the recent change in the price of the game, people are becoming bad.
> ...


 
Wait I'm supposed to play all tournament serious on public bs'ing servers?  Oh.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm alright at TF2 to some degree, but I never stuck with it because it's just not my sort of FPS. I'm more into Killing Floor and tactical shooters and stuff.


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## Clutch (Jun 29, 2011)

I like TF2 because it fun in all but, I'm not the best at it but, at the same time I don't hate it. Maybe you dont like it because you might get frustrated at it more then usual.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jun 29, 2011)

Idk why, but as soon as i stepped to online game, i was at the top of the list. It's easy game to catch up. Keep trying and it might turn out to be your fave one day


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## Ikrit (Jun 29, 2011)

i've played it

it's just damn arcade shooter...only difference is you have classes with predetermine weapons instead of picking up weapons


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## Conker (Jun 29, 2011)

Clutch said:


> I like TF2 because it Fun in all but, I'm not the best at it but, at the same Time I don't hate it. Maybe you dont like it because you might get Frustrated at it more then usual.


 Why do you have three randomly capitalized words in that post?


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## Xenke (Jun 29, 2011)

Conker said:


> Why do you have three randomly capitalized words in that post?


 
I'm more concerned as to why their avatar seems to have floppy old person lips.


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## SirRob (Jun 29, 2011)

Xenke said:


> I'm more concerned as to why their avatar seems to have floppy old person lips.


Because most dogs do...?


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## Xenke (Jun 29, 2011)

SirRob said:


> Because most dogs do...?


 
But there's always, like, discoloration, or at least a different color from the fur.

Everything's all pinky white and it makes me think old people.


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## Clutch (Jun 29, 2011)

Conker said:


> Why do you have three randomly capitalized words in that post?


 I have no idea, wasn't paying attention maybe..


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## Heliophobic (Jun 30, 2011)

SirRob said:


> What are you talking about. I'm pretty sure all the top ranking players of any game care about being good.


 
In fact... it's the other extreme. So many "pro gamers" treat it like a fucking sport.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jun 30, 2011)

Sollux said:


> In fact... it's the other extreme. So many "pro gamers" treat it like a fucking sport.


 
It is a sport, an e-sport.

(100th post! Something to be proud of!)


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## Heliophobic (Jun 30, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> (100th post! Something to be proud of!)


 
What 100? Surely you mean the 101. :0


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## Querk (Jun 30, 2011)

you're terrible at the game because you aren't playing the right class

if you've been playing tf2 for more than an hour and pyro isn't your best main only class, I don't know what you're doing with your life


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## BRN (Jun 30, 2011)

I gave up on TF2 before it was cool to give up on TF2. Man, I joined back when shit was nearly vanilla. And then all these weapon packs came out and ruined everything. 

Then

*hats*


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## Heliophobic (Jun 30, 2011)

Querk said:


> if you've been playing tf2 for more than an hour and pyro isn't your best main only class, I don't know what you're doing with your life


 
Pyro is only for faggots without any skill whatsoever. I love Pyro.



SIX said:


> I gave up on TF2 before it was cool to give up on TF2. Man, I joined back when shit was nearly vanilla. And then all these weapon packs came out and ruined everything.
> 
> Then
> 
> *hats*


 
Shit's too mainstream, dog. :U


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## Seas (Jun 30, 2011)

RaptorianOne said:


> I must be the only furry on earth who does not like TF2. However, I'll be the first to admit that this is largely because I'm very bad at it. Would someone be willing to mentor me in the art of not sucking at this game? :\


 
Are you decent/good at other FPS's?
If yes then which ones?
Would help in determining which class/loadout would be best for you.


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## Ozriel (Jun 30, 2011)

1. Pick a class
2. Practice with it
3. ????
4. Profit!


And it shouldn't matter if you suck at it or not. Just have a good time.


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## Azure (Jun 30, 2011)

I gave up multi-player gaming waaaaaaaaay before it was cool to shun that sort of thing. Now I just replay Alpha Centauri in one window while making my Sim piss himself over and over until he dies in a tiny, seperate pop-up window.


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## Ozriel (Jun 30, 2011)

Azure said:


> I gave up multi-player gaming waaaaaaaaay before it was cool to shun that sort of thing. Now I just replay Alpha Centauri in one window while making my Sim piss himself over and over until he dies in a tiny, seperate pop-up window.


 
You should have your Sim set fire to the toilet.


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## Querk (Jun 30, 2011)

Sollux said:


> Pyro is only for faggots without any skill whatsoever.


so much wrong in this sentence

it's unbearable quit w+m1ing i know you do


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 30, 2011)

I played over 9000 hours of TF2 before I started evening out my kills and deaths points.


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## Heliophobic (Jun 30, 2011)

Querk said:


> quit w+m1ing i know you do


 
u mad bro?


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## Surgat (Jul 1, 2011)

RaptorianOne said:


> I must be the only furry on earth who does not like TF2. However, I'll be the first to admit that this is largely because I'm very bad at it. Would someone be willing to mentor me in the art of not sucking at this game? :\


 
http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Strategy
http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Strategy 

Also, practice.


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## MaskedJackal (Jul 1, 2011)

Sollux said:


> Heavy is only for faggots without any skill whatsoever.


 
Fixed for ya. =)


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## Heliophobic (Jul 1, 2011)

MaskedJackal said:


> Fixed for ya. =)


 
I believe both are. My point still stands.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 3, 2011)

I was under the impression that people hated pyro and heavy because they require absolute zilch skill to play and to have a chance of destroying everyone.

Extract from the book "The Meaning of Liff"


> *Aboyne* (vb.)
> To beat an expert at a game of skill by playing so appalling bad that none of his clever tactics are of any use to him


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## Xaerun (Jul 3, 2011)

I love that it's Free to play now- playing Spy is just so easy. The F2Pers don't spycheck, and the regular players see you in the wrong place, they just assume you're a F2Per and don't have a clue what you're doing.
_Perfect_.


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## Andy Nonimose (Jul 3, 2011)

Xaerun said:


> I love that it's Free to play now- playing Spy is just so easy. The F2Pers don't spycheck, and the regular players see you in the wrong place, they just assume you're a F2Per and don't have a clue what you're doing.
> _Perfect_.


 
Anyone try spycrabbing past a pack of F2P'ers?


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## fiero-the-cat (Jul 3, 2011)

Andy Nonimose said:


> Anyone try spycrabbing past a pack of F2P'ers?


 
Yep. Didn`t work out so well.

And I just realized something: What does being a furry have to do with liking TF2?


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jul 3, 2011)

obviously is the paw touch gun ratio compared to the non furry touch gun ratio.....


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 4, 2011)

Alastair Snowpaw said:


> obviously is the paw touch gun ratio compared to the non furry touch gun ratio.....


 
An explanation please?


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## BRN (Jul 4, 2011)

fiero-the-cat said:


> And I just realized something: What does being a furry have to do with liking TF2?


 
Youtube memes.


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## Commiecomrade (Jul 5, 2011)

Azure said:


> I gave up multi-player gaming waaaaaaaaay before it was cool to shun that sort of thing. Now I just replay Alpha Centauri in one window while making my Sim piss himself over and over until he dies in a tiny, seperate pop-up window.


 
I'm so much more hipster than you. I never even really got into multiplayer gaming. I never played TF2.


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## fiero-the-cat (Jul 5, 2011)

SIX said:


> Youtube memes.


 
Explain please.


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jul 5, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> An explanation please?


 
i honestly do not know...
._.


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## Lemoncholic (Jul 5, 2011)

After so many hours of this game I still suck, and after my computer was down for while I've got even worse at it. Fortunately with it being free now my competition has gotten worse so it about levels out.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 5, 2011)

Lemoncholic said:


> After so many hours of this game I still suck, and after my computer was down for while I've got even worse at it. Fortunately with it being free now my competition has gotten worse so it about levels out.


 
Now I REALLY can't wait to get back on tf2.


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## Daisy La Liebre (Jul 5, 2011)

My computer crashes when I play Pinball, so...


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 7, 2011)

SirRob said:


> So you hate TF2, but you'd like it if you weren't bad at it.


 
How come every single time someone says they dislike a multiplayer game, it's always "You hate it because you suck at it"? 

I disliked TF2 because I didn't find anything I liked in there and it's too dependent on other players.


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## Unsilenced (Jul 7, 2011)

SirRob said:


> But don't those two things go hand in hand?



Caring about score: "I could help my team... OR I COULD LINE UP WITH THESE 50 OTHER SNIPERS AND CAMP DIS SHIT UP!!!"  
Caring about the game: "Fuck KDR. Fuck points. Fuck the police. I am going scout and rushing the intel. MOTHERLAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNDDD!!!!" 

The first gets you a much higher score, but the second is endlessly more fun, especially if the gods smile upon you and the enemy hasn't built any sentries. 


And I sucked dick at TF2 when I started. Then I learned how to use a few different classes... and by different classes I mean all heavy all the time :v (but seriously folk I also do engi, soldier, demopanman, and even medic when I've given up all hope of scoring any points whatsoever.) 

It's just a difficult game to get used to is all. There's a learning curve.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 7, 2011)

Digitalpotato said:


> it's too dependent on other players.


 
I understand that, the whole game is based on elements of teamwork. Many of my attempts of running off in search of fame and glory ended badly.


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## Unsilenced (Jul 7, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> I understand that,* the whole game is based on elements of teamwork. *Many of my attempts of running off in search of fame and glory ended badly.


 
Unless you're a pyro. Then you die cold and alone because nobody loves you.


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## Scotty1700 (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm starting to get very angry at it. I downloaded it a few weeks ago because it was free and I'm trying to like it but dear lord there's so much cheap bullcrap in the game. Nothing makes me rage more than the fucking spy or the pyro using the axtinguisher after he spams the flamethrower all over the place.


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## Unsilenced (Jul 7, 2011)

Scotty1700 said:


> I'm starting to get very angry at it. I downloaded it a few weeks ago because it was free and I'm trying to like it but dear lord there's so much cheap bullcrap in the game. Nothing makes me rage more than the fucking spy or the pyro using the axtinguisher after he spams the flamethrower all over the place.


 
Solution to problem A is problem B. :v 

>>Be pyro. 
>>Ignite everything
>>FRENCH FRIED SPIES, BABY!


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 7, 2011)

Scotty1700 said:


> pyro using the axtinguisher after he spams the flamethrower all over the place.





> >>Ignite everything



That's the basic strategy of the Pyro right there. No need for any skill whatsoever


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## Unsilenced (Jul 7, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> That's the basic strategy of the Pyro right there. No need for any skill whatsoever


 
They are still useful though, which is a good thing. A few pyros on your team never hurt... especially if the other team has a hard-on for spies (protip: They always do)


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 7, 2011)

Unsilenced said:


> They are still useful though, which is a good thing. A few pyros on your team never hurt... especially if the other team has a hard-on for spies (protip: They always do)


 
Indeed, Pyros are the natural spycheckers. What's even better is what a pyro can do in the hands of a pro, as seen in the saxxy awards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06pnMDOdAuY&feature=player_detailpage


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 7, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> I understand that, the whole game is based on elements of teamwork. Many of my attempts of running off in search of fame and glory ended badly.


 
And when the players are complete dicks and are busy just leeroying, the game's no fun. Same with when the servers are being run by social darwinist Croyts.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 8, 2011)

Digitalpotato said:


> And when the players are complete dicks and are busy just leeroying, the game's no fun. Same with when the servers are being run by social darwinist Croyts.



Of course, but it helps when the other team is the one leeroying. But then it gets boring over time (Like it must do now, due to f2pers).



Digitalpotato said:


> social darwinist Croyts.



What are these?


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## RockTheFur (Jul 10, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> What are these?


 

I suppose this may enlighten you.


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## LordBorel (Jul 11, 2011)

Go soldier, aim at the enemies feet.
Go demo, aim at the enemies anywhere. 
or you can be smart
Go engineer, play 2fort, fap to furry sprays while holding down mouse one with wrench out.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jul 11, 2011)

Or you can just go flaming all around with pyro trying to burn cloaked spies


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## LordBorel (Jul 11, 2011)

Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> Or you can just go flaming all around with pyro trying to burn cloaked spies


 Common misconception: the Pyro is actually supposed to shun their flamethrower and just plink at people with the shotgun until they CHEARG, THEN you set them on fire and laugh. However your spychecking methodology is very good, kudos.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jul 11, 2011)

Nah, i don't do so. I just spy check suspicious people. Trial by fire you know.
I mostly play Scout, Soldier, Spy, and Pyro.


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## Garfang (Jul 11, 2011)

Not that i am big fun of TF2 >< but no you are not the only one xD


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 11, 2011)

I've spent almost all my game time as the medic, any other class just feels funny, especially if I'm the one being healed. I spend every now and than as the Pyro or the Heavy just for a bit of fun.



Sarcastic Coffeecup said:


> I mostly play Scout, Soldier, Spy, and Pyro.


 
How do you go with these?


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jul 11, 2011)

Scout: I run here and there, picking easy targets and intel. Jumping a lot (sometimes heavy falls very easy when you just jump around and hit him with the bat)

Soldier: I run to the frontline blasting rockets at enemies. Usually with a teammate by side, because running alone with soldier is stupid and will get you killed.

Spy: I sneak behind enemy lines and take out their Snipers, dispensers and turrets. Be careful about who you kill, someone may be watching. It's surprising how much credibility you get when you go cloaked in a disguise to the enemy spawn,de-cloak, looking like you just spawned.

Pyro: not my strong suite, but when running towards the frontline i spycheck everyone near turrets teleporters and dispensers. Then i try to flank enemies.

I'm not too good instructor, but i hope this helps.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh, well I meant how you FARE when you play the classes. At least I got that your strong point wasn't pyro.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 11, 2011)

.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jul 11, 2011)

TechnoGypsy said:


> .


Postworthy post.
Anyway, my record is with soldier: 24 points


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## Fenrari (Jul 11, 2011)

Go Soldier, get friend to kritzkrieg you, ????, win.


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## MaskedJackal (Jul 11, 2011)

Fenrari said:


> Go Soldier, get friend to kritzkrieg you, ????, win.


 
The problem with that is you actually have to aim the rockets. 

Just go Heavy.


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## LordBorel (Jul 11, 2011)

MaskedJackal said:


> The problem with that is you actually have to aim the rockets.
> 
> Just go Heavy.


 Lol aim the rockets. Seriously, you do more damage if you just aim the rocket at the ground in the general area of the enemy. The splash damage they take from the ground is actually greater than if they get directly hit with the rocket...unless you're using the Direct Hit in which case its way more damage.
But yeah heavy is a great choice for new players. If you want to have a successful game, just join a payload server, go heavy and hug the cart as long as possible while on offense.


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## lilEmber (Jul 11, 2011)

I took this last night, it's a pretty good example about how you should be constantly looking around and as a medic heal everybody and not just one target. 

You do die a lot in this game because it's highly dependent on your team and that's not exactly the most optimal in situations where the enemy has a good spy, charging demoman, a good scout, etc. These might kill you (or somebody else) very quickly, but remember most of the time they're trading a life for a life and that's fine for you, pointless for them. You want to force as many people on the other side into the respawn timer then push/cap/etc, try getting as many kills and dealing as much damage as possible while keeping alive yourself but ultimately never trade your life for just one other.


LordBorel said:


> Lol aim the rockets. Seriously, you do more damage if you just aim the rocket at the ground in the general area of the enemy. The splash damage they take from the ground is actually greater than if they get directly hit with the rocket...unless you're using the Direct Hit in which case its way more damage.


Nah the splash is less than a direct hit on all the rockets, and THE Direct Hit does indeed do significant more damage than any other.


> But yeah heavy is a great choice for new players. If you want to have a successful game, just join a payload server, go heavy and hug the cart as long as possible while on offense.


Engineer, Heavy, Medic, Pyro, and Spy are the easiest classes to play imo, in that order.


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## lilEmber (Jul 11, 2011)

Double post ^^;


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## Verin Asper (Jul 11, 2011)

Harmony said:


> I took this last night, it's a pretty good example about how you should be constantly looking around and as a medic heal everybody and not just one target.
> 
> You do die a lot in this game because it's highly dependent on your team and that's not exactly the most optimal in situations where the enemy has a good spy, charging demoman, a good scout, etc. These might kill you (or somebody else) very quickly, but remember most of the time they're trading a life for a life and that's fine for you, pointless for them. You want to force as many people on the other side into the respawn timer then push/cap/etc, try getting as many kills and dealing as much damage as possible while keeping alive yourself but ultimately never trade your life for just one other.
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry I think you misplace Engi. I'm sure he comes after Medic on Defense and Offense on payloads


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## lilEmber (Jul 11, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> I'm sorry I think you misplace Engi. I'm sure he comes after Medic on Defense and Offense on payloads


Watch my video, medic isn't that easy to play. The Engineer uses a shotgun and static structures. Several unlocks make the class harder to play in some ways but ultimately it's the easiest class to start playing. What with you only needing to protect your static buildings and position them correctly, know when to take them down before they blow up, when to repair or assist your sentry in killing, and keep the teleport up in a safe location. I can play that class in my sleep. Â¬.Â¬


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## LordBorel (Jul 11, 2011)

Harmony said:


> Nah the splash is less than a direct hit on all the rockets, and THE Direct Hit does indeed do significant more damage than any other.


True, but you get more damage more consistently with the normal rocket launcher by using splash damage instead of trying for direct hits, especially if you are new and your aim and leading skill with the lawnchair isnt that great. Plus, as that post said, if your kritz'd, its going to do an asston of damage if you just fire into a group instead of trying to pick off targets anyway.


> Engineer, Heavy, Medic, Pyro, and Spy are the easiest classes to play imo, in that order.


 I can see engie heavy medic and pyro but spy? Not being a drag on your team as spy when you're new to the game is a challenging prospect at best especially if you are going up against decent players. Also, as an engie-for-lyfe-yo, it is easy to play engineer, it is not easy to be an engineer that is not crap.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 11, 2011)

Harmony said:


> Watch my video, medic isn't that easy to play. The Engineer uses a shotgun and static structures. Several unlocks make the class harder to play in some ways but ultimately it's the easiest class to start playing. What with you only needing to protect your static buildings and position them correctly, know when to take them down before they blow up, when to repair or assist your sentry in killing, and keep the teleport up in a safe location. I can play that class in my sleep. Â¬.Â¬


 That doesnt make Engi class easy ya know, he still sits behind Medic on the easy scale if not on the same spot with Pyro. The Engi class requires a person to constantly think and asses the situations, specially with Soldier, Demo and Snipers being able to hit your precious sentry out of the sentry guns range (even with wrangler to hit those who are out if its range, the sniper or spy just have to get rid of you then). With how things changed with the engi now able to move his gear up instead of having to destroy it and rebuild, you would have to stop and think if its safe enough to actually move the gear up or to keep it there. The Engi class is for the thinkers or those that love playing RTS games too, its not hard nor is it easy.
Playing the class is one thing, playing the class Good is another something I doubt you can do with the engi.


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## lilEmber (Jul 12, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> That doesnt make Engi class easy ya know, he still sits behind Medic on the easy scale if not on the same spot with Pyro. The Engi class requires a person to constantly think and asses the situations, specially with Soldier, Demo and Snipers being able to hit your precious sentry out of the sentry guns range (even with wrangler to hit those who are out if its range, the sniper or spy just have to get rid of you then). With how things changed with the engi now able to move his gear up instead of having to destroy it and rebuild, you would have to stop and think if its safe enough to actually move the gear up or to keep it there. The Engi class is for the thinkers or those that love playing RTS games too, its not hard nor is it easy.
> Playing the class is one thing, playing the class Good is another something I doubt you can do with the engi.


Well I guess some people find the most easiest things for me to do really hard, too bad I guess. But it is most definitely not like an RTS to play this class, nor does its skill have a high ramp up, it's a shotgun/pistol/auto turret. The wrangler is the only thing that requires _some_ accuracy and being able to move the building doesn't make the class harder but easier to play, they can set up safely then move it into the battle.

If you mean hard as in every other class is better than yeah, sure. Right now the Engineer is incredibly weak, especially against a good sniper (or two working together) or a good demoman. You rely on your team to help you more than any other class, relieving significant difficulty from the class or making it seem difficult if your team is significantly worse than the other team.

And I can play any class better than "good".


LordBorel said:


> True, but you get more damage more consistently with the normal rocket launcher by using splash damage instead of trying for direct hits, especially if you are new and your aim and leading skill with the lawnchair isnt that great. Plus, as that post said, if your kritz'd, its going to do an asston of damage if you just fire into a group instead of trying to pick off targets anyway.


Which is why I think soldier is not an easy class to play, I've seen good soldiers solo entire teams.



LordBorel said:


> I can see engie heavy medic and pyro but spy? Not being a drag on your team as spy when you're new to the game is a challenging prospect at best especially if you are going up against decent players. Also, as an engie-for-lyfe-yo, it is easy to play engineer, it is not easy to be an engineer that is not crap.


You never have to enter combat until you're ready and you should always get at least one kill, now with the DR they can survive over 2000 dps for six seconds straight and the enforcer they're able to two-three shot (non-crit) most classes. The spy is not hard to play, hard to play extremely well but not hard to play.

And I disagree on the Engineer ever being difficult to play, under-powered but not difficult. They have too many counters but that doesn't mean the class is a challenge to do what it's intended to do. But to each his own, I've gone a good 80-0 k/d as spy a few times and never have problems being an engineer with the new ability to just take your crap and leave if the incoming force is too great for you and your team to defend against.


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## LordBorel (Jul 12, 2011)

Harmony said:


> Which is why I think soldier is not an easy class to play, I've seen good soldiers solo entire teams.


I've seen bad soldiers solo entire waves of teams too. My point was that while you can do more damage while direct hitting the enemies you don't HAVE to to do an assload of damage. Same thing with the demoman, as long as you are shooting in the enemies general direction you will do some damage.


> You never have to enter combat until you're ready and you should always get at least one kill, now with the DR they can survive over 2000 dps for six seconds straight and the enforcer they're able to two-three shot (non-crit) most classes. The spy is not hard to play, hard to play extremely well but not hard to play.


Its far too easy to counter DR as long as you make sure to mention it to the team that they are in fact NOT dead and are just dead ringd. You can be a 1-1 suicide spy sure, if you are competent, but I have seen far too many people just feed the other team because they are disguised as scout and running directly at the team from the enemies direction to believe that any nub can just pick it up and do well with it.


> And I disagree on the Engineer ever being difficult to play, under-powered but not difficult. They have too many counters but that doesn't mean the class is a challenge to do what it's intended to do. But to each his own, I've gone a good 80-0 k/d as spy a few times and never have problems being an engineer with the new ability to just take your crap and leave if the incoming force is too great for you and your team to defend against.


 The whole point of engie is static defense, good placement is the key, and most people just starting out will just drop a sentry any damn place and think that its fine. I've never found the need to move my stuff out, I simply let them blow it up and then build it again, cause as long as I'm alive I can keep putting up sentries, no point in getting killed by moving stuff because I cant shoot back. Plus then only real, real counter for a sentry is an uber demo and sometimes uber heavy, you can repair through pretty much anything else as long as you keep yourself alive and kill the dude thats plinking at your stuff.


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## CynicalCirno (Jul 12, 2011)

Hats and F2P made this game bad.
I miss the vanilla days.

Could as well just go full heavy team.



I personally believe that the best assault class is the medic. Rapid fire, healing ammo - that's a good weapon.
I find the soldier a more complicated class as the soldier does not just launch rockets. Getting used to being a spy takes time, as many people just shoot any person they see, eliminating all spies and wasting most ammo before headed out.


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## lilEmber (Jul 12, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> I've seen bad soldiers solo entire waves of teams too.


Nah I very highly doubt you've seen bad soldiers have ten+ on them at once and come out alive solo. No matter how bad the enemy is you can see a good soldiers skill in their high rocket jumps and ability to not just juggle targets but continuously nail them while they're in the air still. 


LordBorel said:


> My point was that while you can do more damage while direct hitting the enemies you don't HAVE to to do an assload of damage. Same thing with the demoman, as long as you are shooting in the enemies general direction you will do some damage.


You nailing the enemy is the goal, however I agree somebody who can't do it yet still assists the team. Every class is fairly easy to play, I was only suggesting which ones have the most easiest start.



LordBorel said:


> Its far too easy to counter DR as long as you make sure to mention it to the team that they are in fact NOT dead and are just dead ringd. You can be a 1-1 suicide spy sure, if you are competent, but I have seen far too many people just feed the other team because they are disguised as scout and running directly at the team from the enemies direction to believe that any nub can just pick it up and do well with it.


Easy to counter the DR? If you just stand there yeah sure...



LordBorel said:


> The whole point of engie is static defense, good placement is the key, and most people just starting out will just drop a sentry any damn place and think that its fine. I've never found the need to move my stuff out, I simply let them blow it up and then build it again, cause as long as I'm alive I can keep putting up sentries, no point in getting killed by moving stuff because I cant shoot back. Plus then only real, real counter for a sentry is an uber demo and sometimes uber heavy, you can repair through pretty much anything else as long as you keep yourself alive and kill the dude thats plinking at your stuff.


Actually you can not out-repair your sentry against an ubered pyro, heavy, or soldier and a demoman can very easily get most sentries without an uber, he always should with an uber. Two snipers charge up and coop snipe and even a lv3+shield will go down instantly. You can also time a single sniper with a demo or soldier's explosions or spy's sapping. A scout can drink his bonk and distract while any other class kills the engineer or sentry. A spy can sap and do this as well, opening it up for another teammate to get in close and destroy the buildings. Skill isn't building in the right place, it takes a little bit don't get me wrong, but it's not that hard. The real skill in a Engineer is knowing when to scoop up your buildings before the explosives blow them up, or shooting stickies/assisting in killing the target for your sentry.


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## Waffles (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm really good with scout. Im still missing the soda popper (kinda want) and the better pistol (very want) but with my FON I have a top score of 21 points :3
Also sometimes play as pyro, engie, or medic.


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## LordBorel (Jul 12, 2011)

Harmony said:


> Nah I very highly doubt you've seen bad soldiers have ten+ on them at once and come out alive solo. No matter how bad the enemy is you can see a good soldiers skill in their high rocket jumps and ability to not just juggle targets but continuously nail them while they're in the air still.
> 
> You nailing the enemy is the goal, however I agree somebody who can't do it yet still assists the team. Every class is fairly easy to play, I was only suggesting which ones have the most easiest start.


I will give you that engie is much easier to start out and get kills with than soldier. But not by much.



> Easy to counter the DR? If you just stand there yeah sure...


5 easy steps to beating a DR spy:
1. 'Kill' spy.
2. Notice he died far too quickly
3. Say "dead ringer" in chat or in voice
4. Keep spy checking
5. Kill for realz this time.

As soon as the covers blown its pretty much over unless the enemy team isn't communicating and cooperating well.


> Actually you can not out-repair your sentry against an ubered pyro, heavy, or soldier and a demoman can very easily get most sentries without an uber, he always should with an uber.


Funny, I seem to recall having done this on numerous occasions. Perhaps I was dreaming?

No, if you are all alone, ubers will ruin your shit every time, however when your team is doing their job and popping counter ubers/airblasting/meatshielding, You can easily repair through it. Remember how I said placement is important? Its not just putting it where it can see the point, or where there will be enemies running by. Its placing it where it can see the point, has enemies going past, and is a real pain in the ass to corner effectively. I have done a exhaustive search for points such as this and have found several, and the sentries I place there are nigh indestructible.  
Also soldier hardly ever works, unless they are using the direct hit 4 rockets cant be shot fast enough to kill the sentry, and then they have to reload. 


> Two snipers charge up and coop snipe and even a lv3+shield will go down instantly. You can also time a single sniper with a demo or soldier's explosions or spy's sapping. A scout can drink his bonk and distract while any other class kills the engineer or sentry. A spy can sap and do this as well, opening it up for another teammate to get in close and destroy the buildings.


This is assuming that the other team is smart, which is not the case most times.


> Skill isn't building in the right place, it takes a little bit don't get me wrong, but it's not that hard. The real skill in a Engineer is knowing when to scoop up your buildings before the explosives blow them up, or shooting stickies/assisting in killing the target for your sentry.


 Picking up your sentry while it is getting shot at is the worst thing you can possibly do. You pick up your toys, and you are then UNARMED and slow as a heavy until you put them down again, and with only 125 health, if you are lucky. You AND your sentry will end up dead, and the point will be free for cappin. Let the sentry die, keep the team from capping the point/getting intel/PUSHKIN THE KART as best you can until backup arrives, then rebuild. Moving stuff is really more for the offensive engie so that its easier to move the front up and deny more area to the enemy.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 12, 2011)

Harmony said:


> Well I guess some people find the most easiest things for me to do really hard, too bad I guess. But it is most definitely not like an RTS to play this class, nor does its skill have a high ramp up, it's a shotgun/pistol/auto turret. The wrangler is the only thing that requires _some_ accuracy and being able to move the building doesn't make the class harder but easier to play, they can set up safely then move it into the battle.
> 
> If you mean hard as in every other class is better than yeah, sure. Right now the Engineer is incredibly weak, especially against a good sniper (or two working together) or a good demoman. You rely on your team to help you more than any other class, relieving significant difficulty from the class or making it seem difficult if your team is significantly worse than the other team.
> 
> And I can play any class better than "good".


I doubt you can play engi good due to the stuff you are suggesting would get an engi more likely to get killed than help.


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## lilEmber (Jul 12, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> I doubt you can play engi good due to the stuff you are suggesting would get an engi more likely to get killed than help.


What exactly am I suggesting? Why you are assuming _anything_ in this game is difficult and projecting yourself as better than me at, what I consider, the easiest class to play is eluding me. Especially since I'm explaining some strategy while you are not, but I see no modesty in your words and you haven't even seen me play yet already jump to conclusions about my talent.

You think a good engineer just lets his buildings blow up? Do you understand the exactly amount of time to get to a lv3 again is far longer than picking it up and placing it somewhere safe, especially if an Uber is on the way you *really* want to pick it up and run. If your sentry is down more than likely that's when they will make the push, so getting it back up in seconds rather than half a minute or more is very good for the team. Yes the engineer shoots stickies, it takes two or three to wipe you and your lv3 out, not shooting them is bad. Just standing there not shooting what your sentry is shooting at is bad. Not having the teleport in a safe place is bad. Dying is worse.

So please tell me where my error is, if you think the best engineers sit in one place and hammer all day you're wrong and if you think they're up in the front lines you're wrong, it only takes at most nine seconds for the sapper to completely destroy your lv3, so at any given time you can't be more than six seconds worth of running away.


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## LordBorel (Jul 12, 2011)

Harmony said:


> What exactly am I suggesting? Why you are assuming _anything_ in this game is difficult and projecting yourself as better than me at, what I consider, the easiest class to play is eluding me. Especially since I'm explaining some strategy while you are not, but I see no modesty in your words and you haven't even seen me play yet already jump to conclusions about my talent.
> 
> You think a good engineer just lets his buildings blow up? Do you understand the exactly amount of time to get to a lv3 again is far longer than picking it up and placing it somewhere safe, especially if an Uber is on the way you *really* want to pick it up and run. If your sentry is down more than likely that's when they will make the push, so getting it back up in seconds rather than half a minute or more is very good for the team. Yes the engineer shoots stickies, it takes two or three to wipe you and your lv3 out, not shooting them is bad. Just standing there not shooting what your sentry is shooting at is bad. Not having the teleport in a safe place is bad. Dying is worse.
> 
> So please tell me where my error is, if you think the best engineers sit in one place and hammer all day you're wrong and if you think they're up in the front lines you're wrong, it only takes at most nine seconds for the sapper to completely destroy your lv3, so at any given time you can't be more than six seconds worth of running away.



As I explained, the error is that running away with the sentry is more detrimental to the team most times, since you are slower, have no gun out, and are basically a walking 'kill me' sign for the enemy team. And once you ARE dead because you couldnt outrun the soldier, you cant put up another sentry now either, and game is over.


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## lilEmber (Jul 12, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> As I explained, the error is that running away with the sentry is more detrimental to the team most times, since you are slower, have no gun out, and are basically a walking 'kill me' sign for the enemy team. And once you ARE dead because you couldnt outrun the soldier, you cant put up another sentry now either, and game is over.


You didn't explain anything, you think it's better to rebuild which is actually rather silly due to the sheer time required to rebuild. You simply don't have that kind of time to waste if you can avoid it.

What you say is going on the basis that the engineer is a total baddie that doesn't know anything at all, not even to break the line of sight on the enemy. Everything is situational, and it's far easier to back away with your lv3 than it is to rebuild it again. To rebuild a lv3 when they're pushing forward is impossible, a single non-crit rocket, nade, sticky, sniper shot, or other mixture of many things can destroy a lv1 and nearly destroy a lv2 instantly. Not to mention the metal requirements, time, and vulnerabilities to yourself and team while it's down that long. You also shouldn't be alone as an engineer, if you are then go another class.

Picking up the Sentry when it's about to be destroyed is not in any way detrimental to your team. That's illogical in every sense of the term. Sitting there and letting it be blown up however is, and when going against an Uber (especially demoman, pyro, or soldier) it's FAR better to pick up anything that you can save and gtfo because if not it'll all be gone, yourself included.

You say it's harder to play than a medic, well then lets see your replays and show me what you mean.
Here's a couple of mine showing some more medic stuff, but I'll make some more of other class' like the Engineer if you want:
Turbine with Embermedic! 1/3
Turbine with Embermedic! 2/3
Turbine with Embermedic! 3/3


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## LordBorel (Jul 12, 2011)

Harmony said:


> You didn't explain anything, you think it's better to rebuild which is actually rather silly due to the sheer time required to rebuild. You simply don't have that kind of time to waste if you can avoid it.


I can get a sentry back up to level 3 in at least 30 seconds, and as soon as its level 2 its not going to die all that easy as long as I'm beating on it. 


> What you say is going on the basis that the engineer is a total baddie that doesn't know anything at all, not even to break the line of sight on the enemy. Everything is situational, and it's far easier to back away with your lv3 than it is to rebuild it again. To rebuild a lv3 when they're pushing forward is impossible, a single non-crit rocket, nade, sticky, sniper shot, or other mixture of many things can destroy a lv1 and nearly destroy a lv2 instantly. Not to mention the metal requirements, time, and vulnerabilities to yourself and team while it's down that long. You also shouldn't be alone as an engineer, if you are then go another class.


There are many maps where nearly the entire point or cart is exposed to enemy fire, and there is no way to break LOS, meaning murphy's law is going to have a critting heavy come around the corner as soon as you pick up your gun and start legging it s-l-o-0-o-wly to another spot where it won't get raped for the time being. Plus, if you want the sentry to be useful, it will still need to be pointing at a choke point or the point anyway, so its going to end up under enemy fire no matter what, so what is really the point? I'm not saying if you have the opportunity and know you can get away with it don't do it, but my experience has lead me to err on the side of caution and not lay myself open to rape.


> Picking up the Sentry when it's about to be destroyed is not in any way detrimental to your team. That's illogical in every sense of the term. Sitting there and letting it be blown up however is, and when going against an Uber (especially demoman, pyro, or soldier) it's FAR better to pick up anything that you can save and gtfo because if not it'll all be gone, yourself included.


1. Get out of the way of rampaging demo or pyro or soldier or whatever, leave your shit behind
2. They burn up more of their Uber killing it, (uber time they would NOT be using if you moved it, I might add)
3. They stop being uber, get on point with rest of team or dance around with them and keep them from capping until you get backup
4. Beat back their push and rebuild while they are respawning
5. Profit.


> You say it's harder to play than a medic, well then lets see your replays and show me what you mean.
> Here's a couple of mine showing some more medic stuff, but I'll make some more of other class' like the Engineer if you want:
> Turbine with Embermedic! 1/3
> Turbine with Embermedic! 2/3
> Turbine with Embermedic! 3/3


Watched first video, you attached yourself to a heavy, and healed the intel carrier, against a team that wasn't making much of an effort. How long have you been playing exactly? Also I don't have a machine capable of running anything made later than 2002 right now, other than minecraft.


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## Furlop (Jul 12, 2011)

Playing medic is about as easy as the guy you're healing is good.

So I can understand how it might be the hardest class to play on a furry server.


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## LordBorel (Jul 12, 2011)

Furlop said:


> Playing medic is about as easy as the guy you're healing is good.
> 
> So I can understand how it might be the hardest class to play on a furry server.


 Holy shit I haven't seen you in a long ass time.


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 13, 2011)

Furlop said:


> Playing medic is about as easy as the guy you're healing is good.


 
This happens every now and again where someone thinks that if they have a medic healing them, they're utterly invincible. At Orange 3x there was a Heavy who I was healing who dove off the tower into a pile of enemy soldiers and pyros, and died. I didn't follow due to uber being in the low percentages (and because it was suicidal). But noooooooooo he jumps off and then yells at me for not following him into his death.

It makes the game so much better if the person you're healing returns the favour by actually THINKING


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## lilEmber (Jul 13, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> I can get a sentry back up to level 3 in at least 30 seconds, and as soon as its level 2 its not going to die all that easy as long as I'm beating on it.


THIS right here proves you have no idea what you're talking about, at least 30 seconds is a lot more than less than ten. E-Sports players do what I suggest. You saying you can do better than somebody being paid to play?


LordBorel said:


> Watched first video, you attached yourself to a heavy, and healed the intel carrier, against a team that wasn't making much of an effort. How long have you been playing exactly? Also I don't have a machine capable of running anything made later than 2002 right now, other than minecraft.


That other team was doing great actually, if you notice the scores in the end we ended up going into sudden death. How long have you been playing exactly?



LordBorel said:


> 5 easy steps to beating a DR spy:
> 1. 'Kill' spy.
> 2. Notice he died far too quickly
> 3. Say "dead ringer" in chat or in voice
> ...


Actually you're assuming he sticks around and doesn't go for the nearest ammo, as soon as a DR gets a single scrap of ammo he's got it again and basically has the ability to take krit direct hits four times in a row and not even go down any HP. A good DR spy never ever dies, and doesn't use the DR with full HP but rather at low HP. It turns over 6000 damage into like 30 health gone.


LordBorel said:


> Funny, I seem to recall having done this on numerous occasions. Perhaps I was dreaming?


Simple math says that's impossible, show us a replay of you outhealing them.

Using the TF2 wiki (which is accurate) we see that the Wrench (or any unlock that replaces such) can repair at an amount of 105 per hit with an attack interval 0.8 seconds.

The Sentry:
Level 1 has 150HP (up to 450HP with Wrangler)
Level 2 has 180HP (up to 540HP with Wrangler)
Level 3 has 216HP (up to 648HP with Wrangler)
Mini (Gunslinger) has 100HP (up to 450HP with Wrangler) *(can't be repaired)*.

The Pyro: 
Flamethrower deals 122/sec Crit (Max): 366/sec
Backburner deals 153/sec Crit (Max): 459/sec
Degreaser deals 139.5/sec Crit (Max): 427.5/sec
He should also kill the Engineer and use back-blast to launch a level 3's rockets back at it.

The Heavy:
Minigun deals 500/sec-540/sec Crit (Max): 1080/sec
Natascha deals 320/sec-360/sec Crit (Max): 720/sec
Brass Beast deals 600/sec-650/sec Crit (Max): 1296/sec
Tomislav deals 500/sec-540/sec Crit (Max): 1080/sec
You can out-repair the Tomislav and Natascha at medium range, but not any closer.

The Demoman:
Grenade Launcher Direct Hit: 81-111  Crit: 280-300 After Bounce: 22-64  Crit: 190
Loch-n-Load Base: 125 Crit: 351
If this fails, stickies don't.



LordBorel said:


> This is assuming that the other team is smart, which is not the case most times.


This works both ways.


LordBorel said:


> Picking up your sentry while it is getting shot at is the worst thing you can possibly do.


Yeah you clearly have no idea how to play the class properly, sorry if that's insulting to you but it's very obvious now you're no different than the average player, seeing as the best engineers do exactly this and you're saying you never do this only makes me wonder who told you how to play so poorly and closed minded. Everything is situational, yet you say NEVER do something that could easily save you a lot of time and counter a uber entirely.

If you have set rules you follow to play then you'll never be good, everything is situational and doing the same thing every time will make you a clear open target. Especially if it takes you half a minute or more just to come back from three stickies.

Tell me, do you rocket jump with your sentry at all?
Edit: Here, learn how to play a bit more. Expand and hone your skills until you can play the class to its fullest potential. Also this one but it's rather old and the player can't move his structures, but it still has very good points to learn that still work today just fine. You just have to take into account new unlocks and the ability to move your stuff, too.


Furlop said:


> Playing medic is about as easy as the guy you're healing is good.
> 
> So I can understand how it might be the hardest class to play on a furry server.


Which is why countless times my targets died but I did not. I was totally relying on them, of course...that's what a bad medic does. I do not think the medic is hard to play.


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## LordBorel (Jul 14, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> THIS right here proves you have no idea what you're talking about, at least 30 seconds is a lot more than less than ten. E-Sports players do what I suggest. You saying you can do better than somebody being paid to play?


Competitive TF2 is a joke. I was called on to sub for someone in that Highlander thing, and we won...because the other team didn't bother to show up. And it was not the first time that had happened, and that team was a good distance in the bracket.


> Actually you're assuming he sticks around and doesn't go for the nearest ammo, as soon as a DR gets a single scrap of ammo he's got it again and basically has the ability to take krit direct hits four times in a row and not even go down any HP. A good DR spy never ever dies, and doesn't use the DR with full HP but rather at low HP. It turns over 6000 damage into like 30 health gone.


Numbers don't take into account a pyro airblasting you into a corner until you are vulnerable again, or another spy backstabbing you. Stats and damage and all that crap is nice but its nothing but base numbers and doesn't take into account the thousands of variables in online play.


> Simple math says that's impossible, show us a replay of you outhealing them.


Simple experience tells me that it can be done, has been done. You are for some reason assuming that the other guy has perfect aim, there is no knockback from the sentry, and that the rest of my team isn't trying to harass them off of my machines. I already said that if it was just me and an uber heavy or pyro or soldier then yeah, I would probably be meat, but it NEVER is.




> This works both ways.


Touche.


> Yeah you clearly have no idea how to play the class properly, sorry if that's insulting to you but it's very obvious now you're no different than the average player, seeing as the best engineers do exactly this and you're saying you never do this only makes me wonder who told you how to play so poorly and closed minded. Everything is situational, yet you say NEVER do something that could easily save you a lot of time and counter a uber entirely.


Rolled my eyes here. Hard. Running away counters an uber? According to this logic I should be able to hide in the spawn and win the game. No, when on defense, you do not give ground unless they take it, if there is a situation where a brief retreat is doable and would be useful, then I do it. However I am usually the person that actually builds a sentry that is looking at the point instead of further up, and since there's not many more places to run other than spawn, I don't give ground unless I'm dead and all my stuff is dead.


> If you have set rules you follow to play then you'll never be good, everything is situational and doing the same thing every time will make you a clear open target. Especially if it takes you half a minute or more just to come back from three stickies.


And if I play on a normal server, It will take me a minute or more to come back if I get murdered by a heavy that comes around the corner while I'm trying to move shit. Do I want a possible 1-2 minutes before I have all my stuff up again if I fail, or do I want a definite 30-35 secs if we manage to push back the rush?


> Tell me, do you rocket jump with your sentry at all?


Pretty much stopped reading here. Yeah I can do it, never do because its pretty much useless except to get on the roof in gravelpit, which is a pretty vulnerable spot to begin with; or to get to exploitable spots on some other maps which, more often than not, will get you some unwanted attention from mods or admins (where I play at least).


> That other team was doing great actually, if you notice the scores in  the end we ended up going into sudden death. How long have you been  playing exactly?


Since you are asking:
Playtime (hours):
0 last two weeks
1114.88 on record
Most played class is engie.
Also used to admin on CC2's servers before they died. I would say I at least have some idea of what I'm doing.


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## lilEmber (Jul 14, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> Competitive TF2 is a joke. I was called on to sub for someone in that Highlander thing, and we won...because the other team didn't bother to show up. And it was not the first time that had happened, and that team was a good distance in the bracket.


I'll just take your word for it, you're the best player in the world of course. You can defy simple math, you're a god.
Everything else you say is nothing but "I'm better than everybody else". Prove it, baddie. It's baddies like you that walk right by enemies and let medics deal with them.

And your time on record is moot, the times were not added from the start and already have been reset once along with the stats. I was making fun of you; it was a rhetorical question, I do not care how long you've played it still doesn't mean you're any good. I stopped playing around the time the stats were reset actually, I had over 100 score streak with every class and 200 on sniper. Was really pissed that they reset it actually and since I came back I've been playing medic mostly but even still I get over 30 kills as engineer many times in one life, it's not that hard. 

*Nothing* in this game is hard to do except working together perfectly, and in every counterargument you have made it's relying on your team and solely that. The only way you defend against an uber by staying is with luck on your side and misfortune on the other side, by thinking you can sit there and stop an ubered demo is silly. You see one coming you nab your lv3 and back away until either their uber runs out or they get too close and in which case you drop it and either run or get it set up again. If you're so professional to be able to hold off an ubered demo as a solo engineer then show me all those epic replays. I bet they miss completely or don't even use their stickies, IE you defended against idiots and are proud of it.

You don't give ground, yeah so you bite the 30 second respawn timer and then the 30 seconds (or more) it takes to get a lv3 alone back up, let alone other buildings. Rather than making a temporary fallback and gather with your team. You need to play SC2 more.


----------



## LordBorel (Jul 14, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> Everything else you say is nothing but "I'm better than everybody else". Prove it, baddie. It's baddies like you that walk right by enemies and let medics deal with them.


 I never claimed to be better or worse than anyone. I simply claimed that your thinking was, and still is, wrong in many cases, and for some reason you considered that a personal attack on your gamerhood. I'm an average to mediocre player most of the time. I can use most classes with above average competence, but I'm not great at any one, and there are lots of better players than me. Also, 'baddie', confirmed for 15 year old angry german kid stereotype.


> And your time on record is moot,


Then why the hell did you ask me how long I've been playing in the first place?


> *Nothing* in this game is hard to do except working together  perfectly, and in every counterargument you have made it's relying on  your team and solely that. The only way you defend against an uber by  staying is with luck on your side and misfortune on the other side, by  thinking you can sit there and stop an ubered demo is silly.


Holy shit, relying on your team in a game called TEAM Fortress 2. My mind has been blown. How could I have been so foolish. Also, as I have said no less than 3 times already, I never said I could stop an uber demo, they are the sentry killer personified.


> You see one coming you nab your lv3 and back away until either their  uber runs out or they get too close and in which case you drop it and  either run or get it set up again. If you're so professional to be able  to hold off an ubered demo as a solo engineer then show me all those  epic replays. I bet they miss completely or don't even use their  stickies, IE you defended against idiots and are proud of it.


Clearly, You did not read my post. I will repeat myself for clarification: I said that it is NOT POSSIBLE for a solo engie to hold off an uber demo, or soldier, or even pyro. Hell, an uber scout can take out the sentry if its just you and them. However when mister pyro comes to help me by blowing them and those nasty bombs away, I can usually repair through most of the remaining damage from pipes and stray fire without getting killed. And if you think you can outrun and outjuke a demo while you're carrying your sentry, you are sadly mistaken.

Either you are not smart enough to comprehend what I am saying, or you are simply missing the point on purpose. Either way, I'm not sure continued debate with you would be beneficial to anyone actually trying to learn, or my blood pressure for that matter.


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## FloppyPhallus (Jul 14, 2011)

Allow me to affiliate my opinions and knowledge from my near 4 years  experience with TF2. I've found it works best finding the class that  best suits your taste in play style and sticking with it (heavy is my  specialty, with medic and scout after when boredom kicks in). Now  assuming you're playing with friends or a group that plays and  cooperates, (if you're in a public server, then it's just about messing  around) you'll easily come to terms with how simple it can be once team  work ensues. Scouts are effective with capturing the flag and control  points, being evasive and hard to hit, heavies are good with holding  positions, pushing the cart, pushing a position up etc, you're playing  to your classes strengths.

Once you have it figured out as to what your favored class is, it just  comes down to learning the tricks that have been accumulated over the  years (quick google/youtube search should find you something). You  shouldn't worry about needing more weapons then your default, playing  mainly heavy I find the default minigun still operates better then the  other ones for team work, fists being the most effective melee, but I do  however use the sandvich (but that is only just to give to a medic team  mate). What makes me effective with this class is just playing to it's  advantages and staying where it is effective, as well as the many tricks  to making me MVP every time, but the list is long and doesn't factor  into being a good team mate.

But that's basically it, TF2 is very simple, it just comes off as  confusing as it throws all this stuff at you like new weapons, hats,  lots of map modes, hats, integrated new features and blog updates and  unusual hats.


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## lilEmber (Jul 14, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> baddietalk


Until you prove it you're a baddie in my books, plain and simple M&S (moron/slacker). You don't want to learn nor are you able.
It's fairly easy to back up what you say with a game that includes a battlerecorder.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 14, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> -Ego trip-


Then simple, YOU prove yourself to showing that Engi is the easiest class by recording yourself, I would record myself playing engi but I'm an average player who play on furry servers (automatically not serious servers as folks rather complain about someone covering their porn spray with another porn spray). The only other server that isnt furry have strict rules on Engi's anyway (they heavily dislike glitch building and building upon a particular roof) Note using E-sports just makes the players knowledgeable of things but not what they do being the best as styles differ between all of them.

In other words what I'm saying "Just cause Engi is considered easy for you, its not easy for everyone"

then again this
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Deskais/stats/TF2
would happily prove that playing Engi for me is very easy after learning things about the guy.


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## lilEmber (Jul 14, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> ...


I asked you first. :c
I think the engineer is stupid, it's underpowered and too simple it needs something more based on skill to make the class formidable.
Also those stats are really low, I haven't even been playing much since the stat wipe but I've just started to pick it back up again and here's my current ones from only a couple weeks http://steamcommunity.com/id/ember/stats/TF2 and I'm not even playing the engineer barely at all nor anything else but medic really. And also I too only play on furry servers, no matter how good you actually do in terms of score I can tell by the way you play how good you are. It's rather easy, looking around, hitting your targets, trying to avoid damage and assist etc.

And it's no egotrip, you started calling me bad and I'm proclaiming you as bad because of that statement. Nothing in this game is hard unless you're an M&S.


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## Andreus (Jul 14, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> baddie



Anyone who uses this word unironically is a fucking idiot (and, in fact, is likely terrible at the game).


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## LordBorel (Jul 14, 2011)

Sigh.


lilEmber said:


> Hurp de durp I barely play the class BUT I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEIR LIMITS ARE, AND YOU ARE BAD BECAUSE...BADDIE


 Give me a break. Come back when you can back yourself up with something other than a 5 minute video of you healing someone, and actually have triple digit hours. Also, you talk about a stat reset while my stats have never been reset, so I have no idea what you are on about there, however your inexperience shows. I never meant this to turn into some kind of goddamn forum drama war, I just wanted to give new players some advice. Furries man. Jesus.
Also since we are linking shit now http://steamcommunity.com/id/lordborel/stats/TF2?tab=stats there you go.


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## Lost (Jul 14, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> I asked you first. :c
> I think the engineer is stupid, it's underpowered and too simple it needs something more based on skill to make the class formidable.



I'm sry here I have to step in and stop you.  The engy has the most subtle and deepest skill there is in the game.  For you not to see this is because you think of the class just sitting there doing nothing and letting the sentry do all the work.  There is so much more that goes into playing Engy. You need to know the flow of each map, predict were they will go and how many of them will go.  Then you have to find optimal placement of the sentry to keep incoming fire low while keeping the out going high.  The engy is not meant for 1v1 skrim he needs to be supported by the team.  If you want more of a run&gun style then grab the fist and go. 

Secondly, using the wrangler to save a sentry in the face of an uber is going have much higher success rate then grabbing it and running.  A) The damage redution allows you out heal any class. B) If you are going to grab anything grab the dispenser and leave the distraction. This will allow you to quickly set up another lvl3 if you can get away.  The grab and run route honestly should be your final option, because once you pick anything up you are running about the speed of a heavy and that uber can easily run you down and murder your face. 

Next, underpowered by no means properly describes the engy.  He is to this day the greatest control over map flow and balance.  Any changes to the class has massive ramification on game balance.  There is a reason why Valve has not yet released new content for the engy. And if you don't believe me here it is from the horses mouth http://tf2.com/post.php?id=3539. 



lilEmber said:


> I'm not even playing the engineer barely at all nor anything else but medic really.



Please don't comment on a class that you don't play.  The assumptions that you are making are based on observations and not experience. You need to play more then we can have a proper discussion on game balance and the such. 




lilEmber said:


> Until you prove it you're a baddie in my books,  plain and simple M&S (moron/slacker).



Please, there is nothing more in this gaming word that drives me up the wall faster then someone using that term.  I ask everyone reading this post to say the word 'baddie' without sounding like a 10 year old X-Box Live player. It's impossible and what ever happen to calling someone a noob? hell I'm okay with scrub.


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## Furlop (Jul 14, 2011)

Personally, this is my favorite Newfy quote on TF2.



lilEmber said:


> The game doesn't have weapon/unlock  balancing issues, it has class balancing issues. *Currently the SPY is  far, FAR too powerful*. The sniper isn't far behind, even though the  sniper is -my- class I feel it's far too strong, however the spy is just  plain over-kill-stupid-powerful against all classes except  pyro.


 


lilEmber said:


> Facestab my friend. I've  witnessed an entire team (five people) be facestabbed by one spy in less  than five seconds.
> Edit: Oh, and a sixth guy (sniper) with two  headshots with the ambassador from halfway across 2fort, when the  ambassador was first out. But even so, *that weapon is the thirst most  strongest in the game.*


 
So there you go. Now you know why Spy is the most OP class in TF2.


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## MaskedJackal (Jul 14, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> Competitive TF2 is a joke.


 
As someone who has played multiple seasons of ESEA and is still competing, I've got to ask, why? Is there something wrong with enjoying an organized game?

I'm only asking because I don't see why the TF2 community holds such contempt for competitive play. We just enjoy organized play with a more competitive atmosphere is all.


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## LordBorel (Jul 14, 2011)

MaskedJackal said:


> As someone who has played multiple seasons of ESEA and is still competing, I've got to ask, why? Is there something wrong with enjoying an organized game?
> 
> I'm only asking because I don't see why the TF2 community holds such contempt for competitive play. We just enjoy organized play with a more competitive atmosphere is all.


 Its because its not really the game as is, its a heavily modified version, with certain maps, no random crits, and usually only a handful of classes are played instead of the full range. Most games the competitive side pretty much mirrors the more causal side, with certain weapons/loadouts/maps preferred, but there is still variety.
I'm not saying good players don't play in it, but competitive TF2 is so different than a normal game that its looked on as a statement to the games imbalanced nature and that it shouldn't really be taken very seriously.



Furlop said:


> So there you go. Now you know why Spy is the most OP class in TF2.


 Oh wow. I loled.


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## Lost (Jul 14, 2011)

MaskedJackal said:


> As someone who has played multiple seasons of ESEA and is still competing, I've got to ask, why? Is there something wrong with enjoying an organized game?
> 
> I'm only asking because I don't see why the TF2 community holds such contempt for competitive play. We just enjoy organized play with a more competitive atmosphere is all.



Hey Masked o7. I never cared for the competitive nature of TF2.  Many of the balance changes in TF2 were brought around when Valve wanted to please competitive side of the TF2 community to make weapons more enticing to use.  It made the game balance to hang in a weird limbo of 12v12 and 6v6.  It's what really turned me off to TF2 in the later years.  I miss my old sandman


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## MaskedJackal (Jul 14, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> Its because its not really the game as is, its a heavily modified version, with certain maps, no random crits, and usually only a handful of classes are played instead of the full range. Most games the competitive side pretty much mirrors the more causal side, with certain weapons/loadouts/maps preferred, but there is still variety.
> I'm not saying good players don't play in it, but competitive TF2 is so different than a normal game that its looked on as a statement to the games imbalanced nature and that it shouldn't really be taken very seriously.


 
It was like that initially. However, the game has been altered a lot since it's conception, and competitive play has adjusted to these changes. While it's true that only certain maps are played, most of the unlocks are allowed, and while the standard team setup is one Medic, two Soldiers, two Scouts, and one Demoman, the other classes are starting to see quite a bit of use (especially Sniper, Spy, and Heavy). I got to play some Engineer in my match last night. =)

There's also highlander, but that's another thing entirely. 

'Sup Lost o/


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## LordBorel (Jul 14, 2011)

MaskedJackal said:


> It was like that initially. However, the game has been altered a lot since it's conception, and competitive play has adjusted to these changes. While it's true that only certain maps are played, most of the unlocks are allowed, and while the standard team setup is one Medic, two Soldiers, two Scouts, and one Demoman, the other classes are starting to see quite a bit of use (especially Sniper, Spy, and Heavy). I got to play some Engineer in my match last night. =)
> 
> There's also highlander, but that's another thing entirely.
> 
> 'Sup Lost o/


 Its good to know that there is progress then, I would love to see more varied matchups than the ones I used to see all the time.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 14, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> I asked you first. :c
> I think the engineer is stupid, it's underpowered and too simple it needs something more based on skill to make the class formidable.
> Also those stats are really low, I haven't even been playing much since the stat wipe but I've just started to pick it back up again and here's my current ones from only a couple weeks http://steamcommunity.com/id/ember/stats/TF2 and I'm not even playing the engineer barely at all nor anything else but medic really. And also I too only play on furry servers, no matter how good you actually do in terms of score I can tell by the way you play how good you are. It's rather easy, looking around, hitting your targets, trying to avoid damage and assist etc.
> 
> And it's no egotrip, you started calling me bad and I'm proclaiming you as bad because of that statement. Nothing in this game is hard unless you're an M&S.


 Said the person who hardly play engi, and how specially the engi class was the LAST to get his updates due to we are the one class EVERYONE rely on. You cant talk crap, if you really dont now shit


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## lilEmber (Jul 14, 2011)

Lost said:


> I'm sry here I have to step in and stop you.


Ah imposing self-worth already I see in your first sentence.


Lost said:


> Secondly, using the wrangler to save a sentry in the face of an uber is going have much higher success rate then grabbing it and running.  A) The damage redution allows you out heal any class.


Nope and you can't repair while using it or else it's not shooting. But yes, several classes can out damage it faster than you can repair. I already posted all the numbers above. Of course two engineers and a good team can help you, but it's not your skill that's keeping it up alone.


> B) If you are going to grab anything grab the dispenser and leave the distraction. This will allow you to quickly set up another lvl3 if you can get away.  The grab and run route honestly should be your final option, because once you pick anything up you are running about the speed of a heavy and that uber can easily run you down and murder your face.


Then drop it if you're being chased, are you people this bad? I never said it's was the only option, I said it's a good thing to nab what you can if you see/know of an uber demo coming. You simply can't defend against this yourself, and in most situations on pugs and competitions it's best to make them waste the uber or save what you can. Of course a good pyro can tip the scales in your odds if you choose to stay and shoot stickies/outheal pipes but a good team on the other side will counter your counter, meaning you better back the fuck back with something, anything, if possible. But your life is better to save if it's all you can.


> Please don't comment on a class that you don't play.  The assumptions that you are making are based on observations and not experience. You need to play more then we can have a proper discussion on game balance and the such.


I might not play it much but I know *everything* about it (not saying there isn't more to learn, I still need better muscle memory which comes with time and practice. However I know all the numbers and what to do in pretty much every situation). Nothing in this game is difficult. It was made so kids could still do good. Just because it's not my main class doesn't mean you or anybody else could play it better than me, maybe the same level sure that's not hard but definitely not better than me just because you say so.


> Please, there is nothing more in this gaming word that drives me up the wall faster then someone using that term.  I ask everyone reading this post to say the word 'baddie' without sounding like a 10 year old X-Box Live player. It's impossible and what ever happen to calling someone a noob? hell I'm okay with scrub.


Aw get called it a lot? Too bad, get better.


LordBorel said:


> Herpra derp I can't read


I have far above your play time in this game. FAR above if that's all you have. I said I haven't even played much since the stats were wiped nor were they always recorded and had over 100 points in one life with every class (correction except Engineer and scout, but scout dies a lot if you're doing a lot) and 200 when sniper got two points per headshot, which they don't even get anymore afaik. But none of that matters, stats don't mean anything to me even if they're high, sure you had a great game but I like seeing you play or being along your side. But I assume you played back then too, though your scores clearly show that you were playing as Engineer either against stacked teams, stat padding, or simply nobody on the other team trying. Because there's no way you should have that many points as Engineer with that low amount of kills and that long of a life, one ubered demo and boom you're dead. So hard, takes up to a minute to charge this total counter. See stats don't show anything at all, which is why I ask for more than stats. It's not hard to deliver or pull me into a game to play with/against you.

Prove you're not a baddie already, I've already posted a few replays that show how I play and it's fairly easy to judge based on how I move and react, how many times I miss with melee and arrows, not often, etc. And I'm still rusty, how about you attempt beating me or showing me some of your gameplay then talk shit.


Furlop said:


> Personally, this is my favorite Newfy quote on TF2.
> 
> So there you go. Now you know why Spy is the most OP class in TF2.


Look at the dates and yes that was correct at the time, remember how that weapon got nerfed after launch? Do you remember its stats before? I quit around then, too because of the retarded overpowered spy's DR and ambassador, but they've since nerfed one but the DR is still vastly overpowered compared to any other unlock in the game. A good DR spy will *never* die.


Andreus said:


> Anyone who uses this word unironically is a fucking idiot (and, in fact, is likely terrible at the game).


Looks like another person who gets called this a lot, too bad.


LordBorel said:


> Oh wow. I loled.


Oh you're hurting me so much, let me tell you I've gone 80-0 K/D as spy with a DR. It's very OP in a skilled players hands. Laugh all you want it doesn't change numbers, the moment a DR spy picks up ammo he becomes a god for several seconds, using this ability at the right time will almost always keep you alive through over 9000 damage.


Crysix Fousen said:


> Said the person who hardly play engi, and how specially the engi class was the LAST to get his updates due to we are the one class EVERYONE rely on. You cant talk crap, if you really dont now shit


So because it's not the class I play the most of course I can't know anything about it. Nice logic there champ now how about some of you people back up what you say and show me your talent? In a game or through replays/videos I don't really care how but you're not going to insult my ability and claim to be better without proving it first, else I'll just laugh, call you bad, and that's that. I've carried thousands of people through many games, *show* me you're different than the masses. I can tell just by the way you maneuver and shoot if you have potential or not, even if you don't score high because score isn't all that important it's helping your team that matters, which I'm sure you have epic moments caught somewhere. 

I just came back to playing this game and I already have a few handfuls of replays of interesting, funny, and great moments but all of them show some level of understanding for the game, movement, and aim. Which I expect anybody that's good to have, even an Engineer also where and how you build your buildings and their build/upgrade order. But so far all I hear is "oh no you can't play because you play different than me" then no actual evidence to show how you play? Pfft. You can play, I'll just take your word for it of course, while you're contradicting the pro's play styles and claiming the playstyle to not be situational? Sure. Of course you're still the best player in the world, nobody could know more than you and you don't even need to prove it!

I'll gladly help anybody that's new, too. I'll go into a game with you, point out problems and show you some basics for any class you prefer. You have a question more than likely I can answer it, but it'd be easier to do in-game where I can actually show you as well. The only way you are bad is if you're new or a moron/slacker, everybody else can easily do just as good or better than me.


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## Furlop (Jul 15, 2011)

What kind of person records replays of themselves playing TF2 to show off to people in the first place? You'd have to have a really inflated view of yourself and an ego the size of..

Oh.. Wait..



(On top of that, who the fuck would want to watch them?)


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## TechnoGypsy (Jul 15, 2011)

Furlop said:


> On top of that, who the fuck would want to watch them?


 
I find it helpful to see the little tricks that people use.

Even In-game when I die I look through other players eyes First-person.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Furlop said:


> What kind of person records replays of themselves playing TF2 to show off to people in the first place? You'd have to have a really inflated view of yourself and an ego the size of..
> 
> Oh.. Wait..
> 
> ...


Lots of people watch battlerecorders of good gameplay, it allows you to see where you make your mistakes as well as where other people do neat tricks you might like to do. If you don't watch your replays how are you to get any better? A lot of times you can't see what actually kills you, it's not egotistical to save your replays at all. What a close-minded observation.

Edit: Did you know you're able to see the map from any angle/follow any player when you play back these replays? Only downside is that with the TF2 replays there's no health indicator for anybody, even yourself...which is strange.

Also I enjoy watching funny or epic streaks myself from any game, especially good games of SC2 or streams.


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## Raphael (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm not big on TF2 anymore, what with the clusterfuck of updates, capitalism and mainstream-ity. But... everybody is looking for their little bit of TF2 fame, whether it be owning a buncha' unusual hats, making a successful fansite, tool, map, item or blog, or being a respected member of a server community... I'm trying to collect 300 Refined Metal, so I can stop playing TF2 forever and lock away all that hat making material from ever being used.


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## LordBorel (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> Yammer yammer saying what I already said and contradicting myself several times.


 First off I'm pretty sure you're full of crap about the stat reset stuff, the only time your stats get reset is if YOU reset them. Second, I don't bother to record myself, mostly because I don't have any reason to. The only time people record themselves is to try and show off and inflate their E-peen, which you have done nothing but wave around the entire time I've been trying to speak civilly to you.
Third, as you would know if you bothered to read anything I wrote, I cant play right now due to my system being a massive pile of goat shit. However I'm pretty sure I remember playing with you somewhere, and I remember you being a gigantic egomaniac then too. Also the only thing your replay showed is that you can follow people as medic and shoot a crossbow at heavies, and hit a scout ONCE as he was moving in a straight line away from you. If that's what you consider skill then I should set the bar much lower for myself.

I'll let lost defend himself, since he has even more time in game than me and an actual degree for this shit he should have an easy time of it.
Also,


> Then drop it if you're being chased, are you people this bad?


Thereby defeating the entire purpose of taking it with you in the first place. Hurrrrrrrr.


----------



## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> First off I'm pretty sure you're full of crap about the stat reset stuff, the only time your stats get reset is if YOU reset them. Second, I don't bother to record myself, mostly because I don't have any reason to. The only time people record themselves is to try and show off and inflate their E-peen, which you have done nothing but wave around the entire time I've been trying to speak civilly to you.


Actually there were no stats recorded, playtime or otherwise, for TF2 until around the Medic update afaik. Though I could be wrong about when they were begun, I am certain no stats were recorded for some time. Also around the Sniper/Spy update all stats were reset, at least everybody I knew had playtime and scores all wiped, including myself. Possibly not everybody was wiped but I always assumed so.

I've been playing TF2 since the start, and played TF too (around when infection was bugged was when I started on that). Playtime is moot however, skill is a combination of knowing what to do in any given situation and having the muscle response and reflex to do it as fast and accurate as possible. In time both can be honed but not unless you have the right mindset, you can play forever and never get a firm grasp or natural reflex. Right now I'm rebuilding this natural reflex myself, any extended time not doing something will decay the muscle memory, especially noticable in high-reaction time events like sports or SC2.

Let me quote where you quite being civil, don't act innocent now that I quit too. The moral highground in a game is a pointless way to win a debate.


LordBorel said:


> Competitive TF2 is a joke.





LordBorel said:


> Rolled my eyes here. Hard.





LordBorel said:


> Pretty much stopped reading here.


You were basically saying you're better than everybody else, but you ignore basic math and outright deny very viable and quite useful tactics as such, and with new players watching you're effectively corrupting them into the same thinking as yourself. Which is very bad, hence why I started calling you such. However if you're going back to being civil then I will as well, but don't get a god complex and think you're more moral than me all of a sudden.


LordBorel said:


> Thereby defeating the entire purpose of taking it with you in the first place. Hurrrrrrrr.


Then we disagree, in my mind *if you can* save it then *try* but there's no point in running if your shit isn't blown up or in your hands, unless you're using the buildings to distract the enemy so you can run away and rebuild in a minute. Effectively stunning yourself for a pretty long time and not a problem until that lv3 is back up with your metal restocked. Not all situations I'm in am I able to save either my dispenser or my sentry from an uber, but I have managed to pull it off in some situations and when you do you'll realize how much easier it is if you're able. This is an effective way to counter every hard-counter, most of the time you need a good team to pull it off however.

I've already said my side of the argument isn't to always save the buildings, it's the side of situational awareness and tactical, accurate response to each situation as it's presented. For every class. Not to follow one idea to the teeth, as you suggest. If I was any class and encountered something I knew I could not beat I will retreat and get help, do not underestimate your opposition. As an example, even if you're sure that as a soldier you could take on two heavy medics at once. Unless they're nowhere near your front lines don't engage them without support. If you manage to get one you're still biting the respawn unless you're sure you can sting and retreat safely, or take out two+ then die, that too is effective but not as much as staying alive.


LordBorel said:


> Third, as you would know if you bothered to read anything I wrote, I cant play right now due to my system being a massive pile of goat shit. However I'm pretty sure I remember playing with you somewhere, and I remember you being a gigantic egomaniac then too.


I wish you luck in your repair or whatever else you've planned, I look forward to meeting you in-game but until then I don't believe you'll understand what I mean. Perhaps you can show me something I don't know, and visa-versa. And the only time you'll see me talking in-game is to advise others in errors, such as a pyro standing there doing nothing as a spy saps stuff.


LordBorel said:


> Also the only thing your replay showed is that you can follow people as medic and shoot a crossbow at heavies, and hit a scout ONCE as he was moving in a straight line away from you. If that's what you consider skill then I should set the bar much lower for myself.


Actually you can't see people's health so it isn't quite the best grasp of every situation when my job is keeping that health up, however that is my job and I did it well aside from things I simply could not heal through (crit-rocket at the foot of that sniper, if you seen). My job is to heal and charge my uber, which is why I stick to one person when everybody is at full. Each time you swap targets is time wasted not charging, even miliseconds add up. As for my arrows, most hit either the enemy (note one hits that sniper and pins him to the wall just as a demoman hits him with a grenade to weaken him first) or my teammates (they heal too, and I use them offten to do so). You can also see not many melee's miss when I do go for them, though I do not suggest charging a heavy I knew he was weak. Nor do I suggest charging a sniper like in the same video but I seen a scout and latched onto him with my Quick-Fix, deciding if anybody can do it I can too (I don't talk much in-game, and nobody was going for the sniper pinning us down, killing us, or taking chunks out of our health...doing his job). Of course I'll hit the scout when he's running in a straight line, that's my best target! I also hit many other people if you were watching, the only time I sat and shot was when I had no healing targets and I assure you nearly every arrow I fired down that hallway was 77 damage (the max afik).

Edit: Also TechnoGypsy also mentioned why replays rule, in any game. I just wish it was more automated like in Starcraft, Halo, COD, etc...there's a lot of games with a batterecorded and TF2 has one of the worst because you can't see healthpools.


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## Kesteh (Jul 15, 2011)

THREAD FUCKING DIE ALREADY


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Kesteh said:


> THREAD FUCKING DIE ALREADY


What, exactly is your problem with this thread? :c

Should we start another thread and talk about tactics, and make it more civilized?

Your post lacks content or reason, like this one!


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## Bobskunk (Jul 15, 2011)

more like "I *Hat* TF2"

Here I thought this was going to be an "it used to be good" thread.  Sorry you missed the game before it turned into a huge joke.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Bobskunk said:


> more like "I *Hat* TF2"
> 
> Here I thought this was going to be an "it used to be good" thread.  Sorry you missed the game before it turned into a huge joke.


Actually it did turn into a joke, I agree, but since the Uber update it's actually been much better. The engineer has a better wrench, the medic has a better healing gun, and two other ways to heal (amputator taunt aoe heals and crusader crossbow can heal from distance like 150 health in one shot). Among many other unlocks that seem to have balanced most of the others. Aside for one, the deadringer, but that's only good in the hands of masters against pugs.


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## LordBorel (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> Actually there were no stats recorded, playtime or otherwise, for TF2 until around the Medic update afaik. Though I could be wrong about when they were begun, I am certain no stats were recorded for some time. Also around the Sniper/Spy update all stats were reset, at least everybody I knew had playtime and scores all wiped, including myself. Possibly not everybody was wiped but I always assumed so.


I do remember some friends losing their stats, but I have not as far as I know. 


> I've been playing TF2 since the start, and played TF too (around when infection was bugged was when I started on that). Playtime is moot however, skill is a combination of knowing what to do in any given situation and having the muscle response and reflex to do it as fast and accurate as possible. In time both can be honed but not unless you have the right mindset, you can play forever and never get a firm grasp or natural reflex.


I joined in around the first medic update, played religiously until around the demo/soldier update, then didn't play a whole lot after that, however I still fail to grasp how you say now that playtime is moot when you were the one asking me about how long I have been playing in the first place. Also, in this day and age your skill at shooters isn't solely based on your twitch reflexes, maybe back in QIII days but not now.


> Right now I'm rebuilding this natural reflex myself, any extended time not doing something will decay the muscle memory, especially noticable in high-reaction time events like sports or SC2.


...I'm not touching that. Its gold.


> Let me quote where you quite being civil, don't act innocent now that I quit too. The moral highground in a game is a pointless way to win a debate.


I only stop being civil when I get shit flung in my face.


> THIS right here proves you have no idea what you're talking about,





> Yeah you clearly have no idea how to play the class properly,


Also noticing how oddly polite you are in this post, you didn't call me a baddie once this time. How strange.


> You were basically saying you're better than everybody else, but you ignore basic math and outright deny very viable and quite useful tactics as such, and with new players watching you're effectively corrupting them into the same thinking as yourself. Which is very bad, hence why I started calling you such. However if you're going back to being civil then I will as well, but don't get a god complex and think you're more moral than me all of a sudden.


Never said anything of the sort. I shelled out my opinions and you spluttered around because they were different from yours. Next, no, I don't bother with basic math when complex math is whats used in games. You are once again assuming ideal conditions for each and every instance of x vs. y. It NEVER happens this way in an acutal game. You have the other teams human error, your human error, your teams human error, the computers lag compensation and packet loss, lag in general, hit registration, netcode error, airblasts, counter-ubers, meat shields, the list goes on. The fact of the matter is, those base numbers are only there to give you a general idea of what damage CAN be done, not damage that WILL be done. Your strategies can be valid, to a point, but I've found that my way is less risky for new players, you want to make sure they have a good experience with the game the first few times out. Making it as simple and ENJOYABLE as possible was the aim here, not to give them MLG protips.


> Then we disagree, in my mind *if you can* save it then *try* but there's no point in running if your shit isn't blown up or in your hands, _unless you're using the buildings to distract the enemy so you can run away and rebuild in a minute.
> _


_
_ FINALLY, in the end, you get my point. This is the ENTIRE point to what I've been saying. 


> Effectively stunning yourself for a pretty long time and not a problem until that lv3 is back up with your metal restocked. Not all situations I'm in am I able to save either my dispenser or my sentry from an uber, but I have managed to pull it off in some situations and when you do you'll realize how much easier it is if you're able. This is an effective way to counter every hard-counter, most of the time you need a good team to pull it off however.


In the places most furries play, having a good team is a daunting prospect at the best of times. However I did, and still do, concede that there are times you want to run away with it, and it is a valid strategy, I just don't think its viable as often as you think it is.


> I've already said my side of the argument isn't to always save the buildings, it's the side of situational awareness and tactical, accurate response to each situation as it's presented. For every class. Not to follow one idea to the teeth, as you suggest.


I only mean my suggestions to be general rules of thumb, people learn when they improvise when the general guidelines don't apply and they THINK for themselves. I'm trying to give them a stable framework to build upon as players, not give them advice on how to handle EVERY situation.


> If I was any class and encountered something I knew I could not beat I will retreat and get help, do not underestimate your opposition. As an example, even if you're sure that as a soldier you could take on two heavy medics at once. Unless they're nowhere near your front lines don't engage them without support. If you manage to get one you're still biting the respawn unless you're sure you can sting and retreat safely, or take out two+ then die, that too is effective but not as much as staying alive.


And you finally get my other point, in a roundabout way. The other ENTIRE point to the 'let your crap get wrecked' strategy is that as long as you are alive and the other team hasn't capped your point, you can rebuild. New players that don't have any sense of how fast a rocket can go or how a pipe bounces won't be able to effectively juke while carrying a sentry, and can potentially lose games for their teams, and no one likes to be THAT guy that just screwed everyone over because of a hairbrained move.


> I wish you luck in your repair or whatever else you've planned, I look forward to meeting you in-game but until then I don't believe you'll understand what I mean. Perhaps you can show me something I don't know, and visa-versa. And the only time you'll see me talking in-game is to advise others in errors, such as a pyro standing there doing nothing as a spy saps stuff.


Well thank you.


> Actually you can't see people's health so it isn't quite the best grasp of every situation when my job is keeping that health up, however that is my job and I did it well aside from things I simply could not heal through (crit-rocket at the foot of that sniper, if you seen). My job is to heal and charge my uber, which is why I stick to one person when everybody is at full. Each time you swap targets is time wasted not charging, even miliseconds add up. As for my arrows, most hit either the enemy (note one hits that sniper and pins him to the wall just as a demoman hits him with a grenade to weaken him first) or my teammates (they heal too, and I use them offten to do so). You can also see not many melee's miss when I do go for them, though I do not suggest charging a heavy I knew he was weak. Nor do I suggest charging a sniper like in the same video but I seen a scout and latched onto him with my Quick-Fix, deciding if anybody can do it I can too (I don't talk much in-game, and nobody was going for the sniper pinning us down, killing us, or taking chunks out of our health...doing his job). Of course I'll hit the scout when he's running in a straight line, that's my best target! I also hit many other people if you were watching, the only time I sat and shot was when I had no healing targets and I assure you nearly every arrow I fired down that hallway was 77 damage (the max afik).


I'm not saying you didn't do well as a medic, I was just saying that I didn't really see anything that made it stand out. I mean, I noticed no difference between the way you played and the way I or anyone else I've ever specced as medic played. I don't want to bash your videos, but I got to be honest with what I see.


> Edit: Also TechnoGypsy also mentioned why replays rule, in any game. I just wish it was more automated like in Starcraft, Halo, COD, etc...there's a lot of games with a batterecorded and TF2 has one of the worst because you can't see healthpools.


 Replays are nice, but I would simply prefer learning by playing another game than watching one I just did.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> I do remember some friends losing their stats, but I have not as far as I know.


Well then, something I didn't know; it wasn't universal.


> I joined in around the first medic update, played religiously until around the demo/soldier update, then didn't play a whole lot after that, however I still fail to grasp how you say now that playtime is moot when you were the one asking me about how long I have been playing in the first place. Also, in this day and age your skill at shooters isn't solely based on your twitch reflexes, maybe back in QIII days but not now.


I wasn't actually serious, I was sorta mocking you. I apologize. And no twitch shooting isn't the sole goal, however that's what many classes require (scout, sniper, spy, soldier) in that order. But I mean much more basic, I actually mean your fingers pushing the correct keys in the proper sequence with your mouse rotating and looking in the proper way. It takes muscle memory, practice to build this repletion up so you don't think about it and perform some of the more complex things, even memorization of the map so you can navigate backwards, but that too isn't required to play and have fun. But there's more to it than just proper knowledge of a map, having quick and accurate aim, proper movement. You also have to know the ins and outs of every class, and judge battles based on how much health you assume the enemy has against health your team has+your health accurately, and ammo for classes like demo and soldier...know the positions of snipers and if they have any spies be watching your back much more frequently if possible. There's just a ton of information that playing a long time and knowing usually go hand-in-hand, but that's not 100%. A lot can be taught, told, read, watched. The best by far is experience, of course I do not deny this.


LordBorel said:


> ...I'm not touching that. Its gold.


What? It's biology...Though I did imply Motor Learning which is used synonymously. I thought I asked you to be civil? This is suppose to be a fun game, win or lose. :c


LordBorel said:


> I only stop being civil when I get shit flung in my face.


So you see where I'm coming from, good.


LordBorel said:


> Also noticing how oddly polite you are in this post, you didn't call me a baddie once this time. How strange.


You claimed I started it, I claim you started it; I'm stopping it.


LordBorel said:


> Never said anything of the sort.


Well that's what I gathered when you said you were good enough to compete in a Esport game and outright saying their tactics were wrong. It says exactly that because they are better than everybody else to get into postions where people sponser them to play.


LordBorel said:


> I shelled out my opinions and you spluttered around because they were different from yours.


No, this is what you did. You said my tactics don't work, that they're wrong. But I know they do, and that they're not.


LordBorel said:


> Next, no, I don't bother with basic math when complex math is whats used in games.


I didn't realize addition, subtraction, and multiplication were complex. Sorry, I'm going to be doing Computer Science this year, I know all about actual programming I'm just talking damage numbers vs healing numbers here. Unless you have a magical pyro up your ass at all times or even half the time.


LordBorel said:


> You are once again assuming ideal conditions for each and every instance of x vs. y. It NEVER happens this way in an acutal game. You have the other teams human error, your human error, your teams human error, the computers lag compensation and packet loss, lag in general, hit registration, netcode error, airblasts, counter-ubers, meat shields, the list goes on. The fact of the matter is, those base numbers are only there to give you a general idea of what damage CAN be done, not damage that WILL be done


It does when both sides are equal. You do the math based on the information at that time, you cannot create a number or equation for human error so you don't. I know how these numbers work, you also forgot to mention you must be point blank for them to be this high. However look at how much every one is greatly higher than the repail level, by a massive amount alone let alone the team also shooting, as I said two snipers and pop down goes any sentry. Time that with a uber and it's gone even with wrangler up and two engineers on it. What you're assuming is your team protecting you but the other team not helping destroy your sentry and the uberee being bad at his class while you're perfect with it. In reality these ubered class' should destroy a lv3, which due to lack of skill by their part can certainly allow you to come out on top. However don't underestimate your enemy, if you know that demo is bad then sure stick around if you're willing to risk it.


LordBorel said:


> Your strategies can be valid, to a point, but I've found that my way is less risky for new players, you want to make sure they have a good experience with the game the first few times out. Making it as simple and ENJOYABLE as possible was the aim here, not to give them MLG protips.


I'm in total agreement, but you nor I are totally new, and the best way for new players to learn is to read up on the wiki, watch some youtube's, and play. Telling them how beyond that is pointless until they have at least an understanding. Which is what I was talking about to you, not to the newer players.


LordBorel said:


> FINALLY, in the end, you get my point. This is the ENTIRE point to what I've been saying.


I had been saying the entire time everything is situational, this is what I heavily implied. However you seemed to be argueing that.


LordBorel said:


> In the places most furries play, having a good team is a daunting prospect at the best of times. However I did, and still do, concede that there are times you want to run away with it, and it is a valid strategy, I just don't think its viable as often as you think it is.


I said it's a rare thing that happens but you always want to try if you can. It's like a game itself.


LordBorel said:


> And you finally get my other point, in a roundabout way. The other ENTIRE point to the 'let your crap get wrecked' strategy is that as long as you are alive and the other team hasn't capped your point, you can rebuild.


I've also said from the start that staying alive comes before anything else, and if you watched those replays we were against a good team who were tied with us the whole time and I died once the entire map, even during the final round where when you die you don't come back I didn't. Not bragging but I'm simply enforcing the fact I knew this, and have been saying it. Though I don't think you realize I've been saying them to you specifically, and anybody else that's on your level. I honestly thought you were going against perfectly good strategy in place for "NO NEVER MOVE YOUR BUILDINGS EVER EVER EVER." I know this isn't the case now. :v


LordBorel said:


> I'm not saying you didn't do well as a medic, I was just saying that I didn't really see anything that made it stand out. I mean, I noticed no difference between the way you played and the way I or anyone else I've ever specced as medic played. I don't want to bash your videos, but I got to be honest with what I see.


Well of course, it's pretty basic; this game isn't hard; some people still fail horribly; what you see speccing isn't exact; I doubt everybody nails arrows like that nor keeps that large a group up through that sheer amount of damage, a lot of times I and my targets were in the red but it is hard to know this, not being able to see it (which is annoying). The most important thing is looking around, which even I need to do more, and playing your role until you're forced out of it.


LordBorel said:


> Replays are nice, but I would simply prefer learning by playing another game than watching one I just did.


There's a lot you can learn from your own and others, in any game. being able to slow down and pause points, plus see them from any angle allows you to always know exactly what killed you and what you would of had to do in order to avoid that outcome. Compile enough of these and you'll learn what to do in some unique situations that would otherwise end with your death, or learn to use enemy rockets to jump to specific areas. As and example when falling to your death you could go back and learn where to land exactly in that area where you might of survived, a ledge you didn't notice for instance. Or moments where you're like wtfhow? Go back, see what. You never know what you might learn!


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## yak (Jul 15, 2011)

Guys, stop it with the quote wangs. Are you going against each other to win a free cookie or something?


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## Verin Asper (Jul 15, 2011)

yak said:


> Guys, stop it with the quote wangs. Are you going against each other to win a free cookie or something?


 we're just pissed off at a person who plays Medic/sniper claiming playing engi is the easiest class just cause he seen other players.
So Far now been contradicting himself on proving that the engi class is the easiest class.

@Newf: On replys I only look at the other engi's to see where THEY place their stuff so I can add it to my places to build if those places shown to be helpful to that designated map. Since you want gameplay of my already known amateur engi skill level here you go. Note I been defending the fact the engi isnt the easiest class as you originally stated since our class is relied on the team and vice versa meaning it could be easy to play an engi if your team is also competent/good but hard when your team isnt. Since you wanted vids of me playing as engi I only have 2 replays of me on Viaduct, I'm still uploading the other one to youtube. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMMIRPWBKB4
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9606/statsofgame.png


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## LordBorel (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> Completely missed every point...again.


 Sigh. I have once again done battle ignorance and lost this day. Have fun in magic perfectly balanced teams and conditions all the time land. I'm going to be over here in the real world having fun and pushing back ubers all day err day.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

odd double posted


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> we're just pissed off at a person who plays Medic/sniper claiming playing engi is the easiest class just cause he seen other players.
> So Far now been contradicting himself on proving that the engi class is the easiest class.


What? No I have played all classes I just play medic now and I used to play more sniper/scout. I never once said I haven't played engineer, just not as much but to you that might be your entire time playing the game, you don't know. As for contradictions, quotes plox.



> but hard when your team isnt. Since you wanted vids of me playing as engi I only have 2 replays of me on Viaduct, I'm still uploading the other one to youtube.


It's not hard, it's stupid. When your team doesn't assist you or defend you it's impossible to set up in certain locations, which means you're useless or you set a forward operations point instead.


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMMIRPWBKB4
> http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9606/statsofgame.png


For the first whole minute you don't look behind yourself once, then never again throughout the entire video. You're also not looking much left or right at all but you aim isn't bad and your building placement is alright. You can move the gunslinger mini-sentry around a bit more and set up a second teleport but it's not exactly needed. In the end you move around a bit more too, in circles. I like that, though most of the time you were moving in straight lines or standing within a small area, sometimes even still. Mixed with not looking behind you, you're very open to scouts, snipers, and spies most of all. But lucky there was no spies, snipers, or scouts and your team held them off very well while you setup and assisted them. I wouldn't say you're a bad player.


LordBorel said:


> Sigh. I have once again done battle ignorance and lost this day. Have fun in magic perfectly balanced teams and conditions all the time land. I'm going to be over here in the real world having fun.


Clearly you didn't read my post, again for at least the sixth time now I've said it's situational and there's no way you can make an equation that judges skill, so you assume everybody can play their class well. Of course you assume that, unlike you I don't assume my team is good while the enemy is not. I assume your team is able to defend you until you're set up, and that the enemy team doesn't assist with damaging your sentry when an uber comes. You have to assume both sides are equal, unless you're playing against stackers that is usually the case in every game, and always the case in a good game. But as long as the player that is ubered is competent he takes down your sentry, if not than at least one other player on their team being competent can assist and take it down. There's also more than just the uber, bonk, synced damage between DH's, Kritz dual DH's, etc. If you haven't understood yet you're not going to. You're the ignorant person here. Suddenly you claim to have been saying what I've been saying all along then flip tables the very next post, make up your mind. Have fun with your pocket pyro and good luck getting your computer fixed, I look forward to showing you what I mean in-game. But so far I don't have much hope at you showing me anything worth-while with that attitude.



Crysix Fousen said:


> we're just pissed off at a person who plays Medic/sniper claiming playing engi is the easiest class just cause he seen other players.
> So Far now been contradicting himself on proving that the engi class is the easiest class.


What? No I have played all classes I just play medic now and I used to play more sniper/scout. I never once said I haven't played engineer, just not as much but to you that might be your entire time playing the game, you don't know. As for contradictions, quotes plox. And "we're"? Oh you just me yourself and your ego.



> but hard when your team isnt. Since you wanted vids of me playing as engi I only have 2 replays of me on Viaduct, I'm still uploading the other one to youtube.


It's not hard, it's stupid. When your team doesn't assist you or defend you it's impossible to set up in certain locations, which means you're useless or you set a forward operations point instead.


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMMIRPWBKB4
> http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9606/statsofgame.png


For the first whole minute you don't look behind yourself once, then never again throughout the entire video. You're also not looking much left or right at all but you aim isn't bad and your building placement is alright. You can move the gunslinger mini-sentry around a bit more and set up a second teleport but it's not exactly needed. In the end you move around a bit more too, in circles. I like that, though most of the time you were moving in straight lines or standing within a small area, sometimes even still. Mixed with not looking behind you, you're very open to scouts, snipers, and spies most of all. But lucky there was no spies, snipers, or scouts and your team held them off very well while you setup and assisted them. I wouldn't say you're a bad player, you engaged the enemy on sight and didn't stop until they were dead.


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## Lost (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> I might not play it much but I know *everything* about it (not  saying there isn't more to learn, I still need better muscle memory  which comes with time and practice. However I know all the numbers and  what to do in pretty much every situation).



I'm so sorry. I didn't know that you had commited to memory every single number in this game and you know how to handle every single situation that will ever happen.  I am in the presence of a god among men.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Lost said:


> I'm so sorry. I didn't know that you had commited to memory every single number in this game and you know how to handle every single situation that will ever happen.  I am in the presence of a god among men.


Yeah actually it's fairly easy over the sheer amount of hours I've put into this game and other shooters. The numbers are also fairly easy to know, I also track enemy and friendly demoman grenades used vs reloaded, same with soldier rockets. I've been playing TF2 since the start, and I read up the wiki often for refresher and newly added unlocks. There's not even the same amount of information here in this game compared to a single novel. These are things that'll come natural with experience, don't expect to get them right away. SC2 is far more complex than this game will ever be, and look at how well people play that.

I am no God for simple memory of a very small list of numbers. Though the tomilav is innacurate on the wiki I believe, and in my earlier post it reflects that inaccuracy. it shows the same DPS as the minigun and though it does the same damage per shot it fires much slower, hence it should have less DPS. I do not know the raw numbers but I can quickly do it myself: it's only 20% less so using the minigun numbers which I know to be accurate we can see that the Tomislav deals 433-450/second at close range, 75-283/second at medium range, and 42-83/second at longest range, which is like five damage a hit. Crits do their full damage reguardless of range and hit per bullet the same as the minigun.


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## LordBorel (Jul 15, 2011)

Ember what you have been saying all along is that you CANT CANT CANT NEVER NEVER CANT EEEEEVER repair a sentry through an uber or the thousand of other buzzword phrases you listed, meanwhile, I've done it, so I KNOW it can be done, and apparently trying to convince you otherwise is akin to smearing my face along a concrete wall in an attempt to get it to learn how to eat. 

And my only other question is if you are such an incredibly good TF2 player, why aren't you in competitive. You seem like some kind of rabid fan that will defend the use of brain dead tactics like 'Lets pick up the sentry when theres an uber coming straight at me! They surely wont catch me as I TRUNDLE down the hall!'. There are times to move the sentry, I've said that. While under attack IS NOT ONE OF THEM, and that you are suggesting this to new players as a good idea is what is irritating me.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

LordBorel said:


> Ember what you have been saying all along is that you CANT CANT CANT NEVER NEVER CANT EEEEEVER repair a sentry through an uber or the thousand of other buzzword phrases you listed, meanwhile, I've done it, so I KNOW it can be done, and apparently trying to convince you otherwise is akin to smearing my face along a concrete wall in an attempt to get it to learn how to eat.


You've done it with luck or against bads, simple as that. And from the absolute start I've been on the defense that everything is situational, not set in stone. Yet you *continue* to argue against that and now are attempting to *take* my argument and give me yours. Fuck off, you don't fool me.



LordBorel said:


> And my only other question is if you are such an incredibly good TF2 player, why aren't you in competitive. You seem like some kind of rabid fan that will defend the use of brain dead tactics like 'Lets pick up the sentry when theres an uber coming straight at me! They surely wont catch me as I TRUNDLE down the hall!'. There are times to move the sentry, I've said that. While under attack IS NOT ONE OF THEM, and that you are suggesting this to new players as a good idea is what is irritating me.


I was, as a sniper/scout. But that was a long time ago, I couldn't do it now if I tried really hard. I simply do not have the motor memory anymore to continuously headshot, though I'm not too bad still I'm not on their level and barely was when I was doing it. Some of the snipers I've seen can hit the smallest windows of opportunistic headshots you'd swear they're using bots even though you could walk thirty meters and see them play (as in same building). You pretty much also have to practice constantly, it gets fairly boring very quickly and it's not fun, so that's why I choose to have fun and stick to pugs on furry servers as the medic. I only go scout/sniper now if our team isn't worth my time to heal (no heavy classes, no teamwork, no defense, no offense. Yes all of them and it happens a lot ._.; ).

Again you claim things aren't situational, contradicting yourself in the same sentance even. I've already explained I was saying it to you, not new players. I quoted and was responding to you specifically. Why are you assuming I'm talking to anybody else? I've already said several times I'm talking directly to you. Stop making me repeat myself until you take my arguments for your own, it's pathetic. If the sentry is at a sliver of red and is the only thing keeping your team up fuck yeah I'm gonna try to save it, if I can. If you jump bullets from the enemy will propel you faster in your desired direction. You can also use explosives to rocket jump. You can, at any time, drop your carried building. And usually you should be building in places where there's a quick way to retreat if possible, though this (again) is alllll situational, which I imply but I'm also stating just specifically so you don't become confused again. That's what online games are, especially shooters and games like TF2: *Situational*. I hope you actually understand what that means because I'll say it again, like I've been saying since post one, and implying throughout every post I've made so far. 

Everything is dependent on exactly what's going on at that very point, what you can assume what will happen in the future based on certain things you should of gathered, and what has happened in the past. Every few seconds of every round you should be thinking about what they might do next and how you can counter that, the only counter to an ubered demo is a fabulous pyro or picking up any of your buildings that you can, either that be the sentry or the supply (they shouldn't be together anyway). This again, is like I've been saying, is very situational. This is your goal against every ubered demo, even if you've survive sometimes by not doing so it is underestimating your opposition to leave your sentry open to an ubered demo (with sticky launcher) because he is the absolute counter to this. However, using basic math you can see many classes can drop your senter very easily with an uber, hell I've done it with a quick-fixed uber pyro but it should not of worked. If I keep trying to do that I most likely will continue to be slaughtered, especially once the team catches on. But I'm guaranteeing if you sit there when I or anybody that can use stickies is the demo you will die, or at least your sentry will because that's my goal. It's also very difficult to take out an engineer with stickies if he's running away, even when hauling something with him.

Sure you've defended against soldiers, who miss their rockets on non-moving buildings or aren't close enough before they open up (yes rockets do FAR less damage at range). Or pyros who don't burn you alive. Or demo who don't have/use stickies and miss their pipes. Or heavies who don't get point blank before fireing. Of course you can defend against bads, good job counting these moments a victory with your diverse and intense skill being the sole reason. If I notice my sentry isn't taking damage I'll lol and sit there too. Everything is situational, especially when crits are involved anything can happen.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> What? No I have played all classes I just play medic now and I used to play more sniper/scout. I never once said I haven't played engineer, just not as much but to you that might be your entire time playing the game, you don't know. As for contradictions, quotes plox. And "we're"? Oh you just me yourself and your ego.
> 
> 
> It's not hard, it's stupid. When your team doesn't assist you or defend you it's impossible to set up in certain locations, which means you're useless or you set a forward operations point instead.
> ...



There was a scout, sniper and a spy. The Second Engineer was building off to the side, I was his distraction for him to set up long enough to reach level 3 sentry and a level 3 teleporter. To the enemy at the start they may think I was the only engi as the other one hardly came out of his nest to only be killed by a cross fire of both my mini sentry and his level 3. I learned of that spot being good for mini sentries or a level 2 (level 3s need to be placed in the center behind the rocks) by playing with my old clan as we would have engi drills (50% of the clan were mainly engi players, we had to also pic a secondary class to keep balance as more than 2 engi on a team hamper things unless the third engi is only a temp engi to help the other two set up quicker by donating his metal). Note I always stood within range of the second sentry gun built by the other engi as the spy have stupidly picked me as his target instead of the other engi who set up a NEST while I just set up an outpost. The only thing I was worried about was the pyros which were my most killed enemies in that round. There were no need to look behind me when their spy was a bad spy but to keep myself safe I opt to circle as if the spy did manage to kill me he would be in kill range of all the players. The mini sentry itself was throw aways due to kept a 200 metal throughout the whole round due to all the dropped weapons and the dispenser I had to heal between pushes by the enemy. Mini Sentries you dont move a lot over true sentries due to I could easily just drop another elsewhere upon its death. If one Engi is using a mini sentry while the other is using a regular sentry it can be used as a deterrent while assisting the second engi on getting his gear up. Only time I set up teleporters and/or use a real sentry if when I'm the only engi on the team.

Now it is true its harder to play due to if your team cant provide a new location to move up and they expect you to being doing the move up when up ahead ISNT safe. Like turbine, if your team manage to control the middle then yes I can move up to the middle and set up there (unless there is already an engi on the middle area, I would set up a reverse tele coming from his nest to our flag room to allow quicker captures). Its specially harder when there is no medic on your team thus the team would see the engi being the healer instead (we just cant heal at the rate of a medic even at level 3)

Final note: "I'm sure the ego is yours as I been happily saying I'm not a good engi this whole time as I been defending that engi isnt easier than heavy as you openly stated but behind medic and/or on par with pyro on the scale"

sorry in advance for my horrible grammar skills.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> There was a scout, sniper and a spy. The Second Engineer was building off to the side, I was his distraction for him to set up long enough to reach level 3 sentry and a level 3 teleporter. To the enemy at the start they may think I was the only engi as the other one hardly came out of his nest to only be killed by a cross fire of both my mini sentry and his level 3. I learned of that spot being good for mini sentries or a level 2 (level 3s need to be placed in the center behind the rocks) by playing with my old clan as we would have engi drills (50% of the clan were mainly engi players, we had to also pic a secondary class to keep balance as more than 2 engi on a team hamper things unless the third engi is only a temp engi to help the other two set up quicker by donating his metal). Note I always stood within range of the second sentry gun built by the other engi as the spy have stupidly picked me as his target instead of the other engi who set up a NEST while I just set up an outpost. The only thing I was worried about was the pyros which were my most killed enemies in that round. There were no need to look behind me when their spy was a bad spy but to keep myself safe I opt to circle as if the spy did manage to kill me he would be in kill range of all the players. The mini sentry itself was throw aways due to kept a 200 metal throughout the whole round due to all the dropped weapons and the dispenser I had to heal between pushes by the enemy. Mini Sentries you dont move a lot over true sentries due to I could easily just drop another elsewhere upon its death. If one Engi is using a mini sentry while the other is using a regular sentry it can be used as a deterrent while assisting the second engi on getting his gear up. Only time I set up teleporters and/or use a real sentry if when I'm the only engi on the team.


 
You should still be looking around, situational awareness it quite important. You might see something nobody else on your team does. Teleports reduce the reinforcement time of your front line by a vast amount, two is always preferred but not needed and a waste to be sitting at 200 metal with lots of ammo around and not put one up. But that's up to you. Also a DR spy (or Eternal Reward, though harder to do) can easily kill you and get away, you say the enemy spy was bad so I believe you and that wasn't what killed you anyway. However picking up a mini sentry has one additional benefit, it builds so fast that you can surprise many people by putting it up in odd locations, though your location was prime for defense I implied picking it up and creating a stronger front line seeing as the Lv3 was protecting the point somewhat. Either way you didn't do wrong keeping in that position by no means.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> You should still be looking around, situational awareness it quite important. You might see something nobody else on your team does. Teleports reduce the reinforcement time of your front line by a vast amount, two is always preferred but not needed and a waste to be sitting at 200 metal with lots of ammo around and not put one up. But that's up to you. Also a DR spy (or Eternal Reward, though harder to do) can easily kill you and get away, you say the enemy spy was bad so I believe you and that wasn't what killed you anyway. However picking up a mini sentry has one additional benefit, it builds so fast that you can surprise many people by putting it up in odd locations, though your location was prime for defense I implied picking it up and creating a stronger front line seeing as the Lv3 was protecting the point somewhat. Either way you didn't do wrong keeping in that position by no means.


The last few rounds that I didnt record or save I donated my metal I got from the dropped guns to the other engi by keeping his stuff alive (as they were now trying to destroy his nest after knowing I was just a distraction for him to set up) while keeping my dispenser up for when our medic was dead (folks could still run back to heal at least) since he tend to be killed a lot over me. The second video will be up soon while I have to link the third one due to dying twice to sniper who was keeping me from setting up thus making it 3 videos instead of one. I only did 7 rounds of viaduct and only recorded 3 of them due to forgetting to save them.


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## Kesteh (Jul 15, 2011)

And thus everyone ignores Yak.


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## lilEmber (Jul 15, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> The last few rounds that I didnt record or save I donated my metal I got from the dropped guns to the other engi by keeping his stuff alive (as they were now trying to destroy his nest after knowing I was just a distraction for him to set up) while keeping my dispenser up for when our medic was dead (folks could still run back to heal at least) since he tend to be killed a lot over me. The second video will be up soon while I have to link the third one due to dying twice to sniper who was keeping me from setting up thus making it 3 videos instead of one. I only did 7 rounds of viaduct and only recorded 3 of them due to forgetting to save them.


WELP I wrote out a great response, aplogizing for calling you egotistical which I had edited out but your last post still caught. That I'd like to see how you move with a sniper known and on you. And claimed good teamwork all around which is pretty much on part to keeping alive. Then hit post, didn't work and lazarus (most ineffective pile of code ever, I don't even think it has ever worked) doesn't work more often than it does so here's a quick version.


Kesteh said:


> And thus everyone ignores Yak.


He ignored us, he said for LordBorel and me not to argue when we were getting along. Though that flip-flopped for no reason.


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## Bliss (Jul 15, 2011)

Cartoon style not so nice. :C


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## Slyck (Jul 15, 2011)

RaptorianOne said:


> I must be the only furry on earth who does not like TF2. However, I'll be the first to admit that this is largely because I'm very bad at it. Would someone be willing to mentor me in the art of not sucking at this game? :\


 Get enough hats to cover your suck.


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## Zanzer (Jul 15, 2011)

MJ you still can't get more then 5 frags a map.

You must learn from the master Scout in TFP! me! or just play solly the easy class.

/flex      (Rikes)


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## Verin Asper (Jul 15, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> WELP I wrote out a great response, aplogizing for calling you egotistical which I had edited out but your last post still caught. That I'd like to see how you move with a sniper known and on you. And claimed good teamwork all around which is pretty much on part to keeping alive. Then hit post, didn't work and lazarus (most ineffective pile of code ever, I don't even think it has ever worked) doesn't work more often than it does so here's a quick version.


its alright, I just got worked up due to having a history of non engi players telling engies how to play (some of these people actually never played the engi class and was just using what they saw others did not knowing not all engi's are the same)
 Heres the Second Video of me playing round 2 of Viaduct
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md6EqRlg_vk

The third will take some time to get it compiled and put together.


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## lilEmber (Jul 16, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> its alright, I just got worked up due to having a history of non engi players telling engies how to play (some of these people actually never played the engi class and was just using what they saw others did not knowing not all engi's are the same)
> Heres the Second Video of me playing round 2 of Viaduct
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md6EqRlg_vk
> 
> The third will take some time to get it compiled and put together.


You did far better this time in terms of movement, jumping, shooting, and etc. When your lv3 dispenser was taking all those grenade spams I would of moved it to where you put up the lv1 after (you did had a lv3 with nearly full metal in stock), but you just as easily put a new one up and it was close to the end of the round anyway.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 16, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> You did far better this time in terms of movement, jumping, shooting, and etc. When your lv3 dispenser was taking all those grenade spams I would of moved it to where you put up the lv1 after (you did had a lv3 with nearly full metal in stock), but you just as easily put a new one up and it was close to the end of the round anyway.


It was pointless for me to move it as it was near the end of the match, but I could of moved it if the enemy was taking the point.
 This is the final video I saved
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aEt0zUlY8Q
This one I did horrible due to the intro of the sniper whom was afk for the first two rounds apparently when I went thru the vids before.


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## lilEmber (Jul 17, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> It was pointless for me to move it as it was near the end of the match, but I could of moved it if the enemy was taking the point.
> This is the final video I saved
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aEt0zUlY8Q
> This one I did horrible due to the intro of the sniper whom was afk for the first two rounds apparently when I went thru the vids before.


Yeah you pretty much are perfect in this aside from not looking around enough, but even the best players need to look around more. Everybody needs to always look around more lol.


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## LordBorel (Jul 24, 2011)

lilEmber said:


> You've done it with luck or against bads, simple as that. And from the absolute start I've been on the defense that everything is situational, not set in stone. Yet you *continue* to argue against that and now are attempting to *take* my argument and give me yours. Fuck off, you don't fool me.


Did it with some amount of luck and against bad players sure, but mostly I've done it with TEAMWORK, which is what this entire game is about. I don't get why when people start to think they are really good that they can totally disregard strong teamwork in favor of individual skill, ONE person can take out a team, yeah, a team full of baddies on a noob server that you are trolling, certainly. Not on a server with halfway competent people.  Also I never said to never ever move your stuff, I said that moving your stuff when the enemy is about to be on top of you is not a good idea, because you will most likely be killed along with your stuff. I certainly don't want anything of yours, least of all your 'arguments' and 'points' as I will charitably refer to them here.

As for the rest of your post, and to avoid another quote war, I do agree that yes, sometimes moving the sentry is the best option and should be done. Maybe I didn't convey that clearly enough, whatever the case, I'm far more in favor of hoping your team will actually back you up and help to protect your building when the heat is on, rather than abandon them and quite possibly the point (and wondering if you would have kept it if you hadn't moved your stuff afterward) in favor of saving a gun that can be replaced in less than a minute. 

I have, against my better judgement, taken the time to find a replay that actually displays both our cases, as at the beginning I am able to heal my sentry through an uber assault with the help of my team, and then at the end when its just me and the uber heavy, I get well done, showing that you are correct about damage vs. healing and that all alone your sentry will be brown bread against an uber. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG9Lg-5HYMk

Whats  say we just acknowledge we are both right, and maybe hate each  others'  guts a bit less eh? Maybe we can make this thread into  something useful  for new players to get into the game instead of a dumb  flame war between  us over something as pointless as playstyle. There  is no 'right' way,  its all personal preference. Some are easier for new  players to grasp  than others I think, but we'll leave that alone for  now.


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## Unsilenced (Jul 24, 2011)

Slyck said:


> Get enough hats to cover your suck.



Hats make everything better.


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