# Horse Beef Lasgne.



## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 8, 2013)

So, the horse meat dilemma strikes the UK again. This time it was found in Findus Beef Lasagne, but get this, according to this article http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/08/world/europe/uk-horsemeat-probe/?hpt=hp_bn2 60% and 100% horse meat has been found in Findus "Beef Lasagne" Now correct me if I am wrong but how the fuck can they put BEEF on the pack when testing has revealed 100% fucking horse meat? 

Now, I am no scientist but I am fairly certain that a horse inj now way shape or form resembles a fucking cow.


Me and mum were discussing this today after reading it in the paper and I said to mum they'll have to remove it from the shelves because it's false advertising. That and animal pain killers have also been found it. 

I also said to mum that eating horse meat wouldn't bother me, but if I am buying a product that says BEEF lasagne I fucking expect it to be BEEF and not HORSE.

I don't think we can trust what we eat these days unless you slaughter the animal yourself and make your own food.


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## Schwimmwagen (Feb 8, 2013)

I'd eat the horse meat anyway if they were at least honest about it.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 8, 2013)

Gibby said:


> I'd eat the horse meat anyway if they were at least honest about it.



So would I. What bugs me is these big corporations are not running honest businesses. To be honest I am not buying any processed beef from now on. No minced beef, no spag bol, no lasagne, no burgers, nothing, cause quite frankly I don't trust it's contents.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2013)

what the fuck do you even call horse meat? Sheep is mutton, goat is chevron, cow is beef but what the fuck is horse?


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## Cairn (Feb 8, 2013)

I hate when I look at the ingredients list on the back of anything and can't figure out what half the things are. I wouldn't have any problems eating horse meat because I don't see how it's any worse than other kinds of meat but meat packagers should at least be honest about it.
Also, why would they want to falsely package it? Shouldn't horse meat be more expensive than beef anyways?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 8, 2013)

Cairn said:


> I hate when I look at the ingredients list on the back of anything and can't figure out what half the things are. I wouldn't have any problems eating horse meat because I don't see how it's any worse than other kinds of meat but meat packagers should at least be honest about it.
> Also, why would they want to falsely package it? Shouldn't horse meat be more expensive than beef anyways?



I have no idea what horse meat would cost but beef is pretty expensive here.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> I have no idea what horse meat would cost but beef is pretty expensive here.




iicr a lot of american horses are shipped over seas because of the racing industry so most slaughtered horses are racing throw offs. So there are a LOT of those, it wouldnt surprise me if its cheeper.


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## Cairn (Feb 8, 2013)

dinosaurdammit said:


> iicr a lot of american horses are shipped over seas because of the racing industry so most slaughtered horses are racing throw offs. So there are a LOT of those, it wouldnt surprise me if its cheeper.


Huh, I had no idea. I know that it's not cheap to buy or own a horse here in the US, but if they were throw offs, then that would explain it. Are there really that many?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 8, 2013)

dinosaurdammit said:


> iicr a lot of american horses are shipped over seas because of the racing industry so most slaughtered horses are racing throw offs. So there are a LOT of those, it wouldnt surprise me if its cheeper.



Still, I'd rather they put it somewhere on the packaging so we, the consumer know exactly what we are buying and eating.


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## Tigercougar (Feb 8, 2013)

Perhaps their food inspection industry is becoming deregulated like ours (the US)....


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## Schwimmwagen (Feb 8, 2013)

Just had one of those horse burgers.

Delicious as _fuck_.

I still wonder what else is in it though.


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## CaptainCool (Feb 8, 2013)

Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoSEzTpbxP4


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## Umbra.Exe (Feb 8, 2013)

I agree that I don't think I'd have a problem eating horse meat if it were honestly labeled, and of course without the animal painkillers in it. I wonder why there are painkillers in the meat, do you think the horses were euthanized before being butchered?



dinosaurdammit said:


> what the fuck do you even call horse meat? Sheep is mutton, goat is chevron, cow is beef but what the fuck is horse?



According to Wikipedia:
"*Horse meat* is the culinary name for meat cut from a horse." 
How creative. :V


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## Teal (Feb 8, 2013)

dinosaurdammit said:


> iicr a lot of american horses are shipped over seas because of the racing industry so most slaughtered horses are racing throw offs. So there are a LOT of those, it wouldnt surprise me if its cheeper.


 That's even worse, who knows what they've givin those horses.


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## Catilda Lily (Feb 8, 2013)

I bet they would lose a lot of customers if they put horse meat on the box.


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## badlands (Feb 8, 2013)

well when i said i was 'so hungry i could eat a horse' Findus must have took note!


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## benignBiotic (Feb 8, 2013)

Meat industry being dishonest? HHMMM. Maybe they're following America's awful example?


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## ADF (Feb 8, 2013)

This is simply the consequence of race to the bottom economics.

Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper oh shit! How did lead paint get on our children's toys?

>.=.<


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## Fallowfox (Feb 8, 2013)

dinosaurdammit said:


> what the fuck do you even call horse meat? Sheep is mutton, goat is chevron, cow is beef but what the fuck is horse?



Cavalry, chevalier?


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## Mayfurr (Feb 8, 2013)

Gibby said:


> Just had one of those horse burgers.
> 
> Delicious as _fuck_.
> 
> I still wonder what else is in it though.



"Excuse me, I can taste _beef_ in my horse-burger. I want to see the manager..."


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## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 8, 2013)

Hell, if horse meat was the worst undisclosed ingredient in mass produced meats the world would be much better off.


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## Azure (Feb 8, 2013)

RadioactiveRedFox said:


> Hell, if horse meat was the worst undisclosed ingredient in mass produced meats the world would be much better off.


Mmmm, nothing like ammonia, chicken shit, and fingernails of undocumented abused workers to cook up a good meal. People don't even know what they are eating on a daily basis, at least HORSE MEAT actually comes from an animal and isn't a chemical laden filler.


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## LizardKing (Feb 8, 2013)

They should just print a bunch of stickers that say "(Hopefully!)" and add them to all the products just under where it says "100% Beef". There, now it's accurate.

Meanwhile the FSA can get off their butt and maybe get the companies to actually test the shit they receive. They sure as shit won't do it without good reason; think of the cost! Gosh! Their suppliers probably started off putting in a small amount, and kept slowly raising it to see what they could get away with. 

I guess glue sales were down and they had to do _something_ with all those horses.


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## Bambi (Feb 8, 2013)

What's Lasgne?

EDIT: Oh.


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## benignBiotic (Feb 8, 2013)

Bambi said:


> What's Lasgne?
> 
> EDIT: Oh.


You know... lasagane. [SFW]


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## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 8, 2013)

benignBiotic said:


> You know... lasagane. [SFW]



Damn it, now I'm hungry for lasagna.


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## Bambi (Feb 8, 2013)

Horse waffle soup.

I don't know why that picture of Lasagna made me think of that.

@OP: ... does anyone know exactly when corporations and big agriculture decided to suddenly stop giving any fucks? I've watched a few documentaries, like Farmaggedon and such ... but man. When did this bullshit start?


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## Azure (Feb 8, 2013)

real g's move in silence, like lasagna


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## ADF (Feb 8, 2013)

Bambi said:


> Horse waffle soup.
> 
> I don't know why that picture of Lasagna made me think of that.
> 
> @OP: ... does anyone know exactly when corporations and big agriculture decided to suddenly stop giving any fucks? I've watched a few documentaries, like Farmaggedon and such ... but man. When did this bullshit start?



It's always been this way though, businesses have just gotten better at keeping it quiet or PR.

Remember kids, doctors like cigarettes and lead paint makes the best toys. Would companies lie?


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## Bambi (Feb 8, 2013)

ADF said:


> It's always been this way though, businesses have just gotten better at keeping it quiet or PR.
> 
> Remember kids, doctors like cigarettes and lead paint makes the best toys. Would companies lie?


Makes me wonder if it's a more evolved hold over from the days when cigarette manufacturers would say that smoking cured cancer, and other ailments? When was that? During the 1800's, and such?

I don't know. I'd love for there to be a way to put these people in a grind so they couldn't pull this bullshit. I just thought it was more an American-legalese thing seeing as any company could wage a war verbosity, or tid-for-tad "Well, you said THIS, but it didn't exclude THAT." Didn't realize it was beginning to effect Europe, though.


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## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 8, 2013)

Bambi said:


> Makes me wonder if it's a more evolved hold over from the days when cigarette manufacturers would say that smoking cured cancer, and other ailments? When was that? During the 1800's, and such?
> 
> I don't know. I'd love for there to be a way to put these people in a grind so they couldn't pull this bullshit. I just thought it was more an American-legalese thing seeing as any company could wage a war verbosity, or tid-for-tad "Well, you said THIS, but it didn't exclude THAT." Didn't realize it was beginning to effect Europe, though.



Lying and cheating has always been a common business practice worldwide. This kind of shit is nothing new even for Europe. Ever hear of Thalidomide? It was produced by a German pharmaceutical company.


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## Batty Krueger (Feb 8, 2013)

I remember when I lived in England my friends dad always talked about eating horse meat when he was younger.  I wonder what it tastes like.


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## ADF (Feb 8, 2013)

Bambi said:


> Makes me wonder if it's a more evolved hold over from the days when cigarette manufacturers would say that smoking cured cancer, and other ailments? When was that? During the 1800's, and such?
> 
> I don't know. I'd love for there to be a way to put these people in a grind so they couldn't pull this bullshit. I just thought it was more an American-legalese thing seeing as any company could wage a war verbosity, or tid-for-tad "Well, you said THIS, but it didn't exclude THAT." Didn't realize it was beginning to effect Europe, though.



Beginning to affect Europe? We have food from made up places. Companies are allowed to simply invent an idyllic location we'd like to think our tuna or whatever comes from, then set up the packaging to suggest it's a real place. So we're way in the deep end of corporate propaganda by now.

Every now and then we get food documentaries reminding us of how poor food standards are in Europe, thanks to the EU's stamp of approval no less. I recall one where a chocolate cake could be coated with claims to suggest it was some ultra healthy dietary product inside the box, plus a trifle called one of your five a day because it met the minimum fruit content. Speaking of the "Five a Day" fruit a veg campaign, they managed to hijack that by providing "one of your five a day" labels on junk food because they used a custom label. The real label has higher standards, but few consumers notice the difference.

Food standards today is more about the complete lack of standards.


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## Catilda Lily (Feb 8, 2013)

d.batty said:


> I remember when I lived in England my friends dad always talked about eating horse meat when he was younger.  I wonder what it tastes like.


There was a resturaunt that served it here, My grandparaents' ate some and said it was pretty good, the resturaunt got shut down because they didn't tell people it was horse.


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## Bambi (Feb 8, 2013)

ADF said:


> Food standards today is more about the complete lack of standards.


Makes me wonder if the raw consumption of goods is related to a complete lack of standards; on second thought, that is what I believe.


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## Hinalle K. (Feb 8, 2013)

Eating horse meat seems wrong and disgusting to me for some reason.


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## Ikrit (Feb 8, 2013)

being this uptight about meat


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## Batty Krueger (Feb 8, 2013)

Apparently burger king in Britain also sold horse meat as beef burgers.


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## Mayfurr (Feb 9, 2013)

d.batty said:


> Apparently burger king in Britain also sold horse meat as beef burgers.



At least it was actual _meat_ that came from an actual animal.

"Pure British Beef - from the Grand National to your plate!"


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## Dreaming (Feb 9, 2013)

This is cheap mass production meat here, there's all sorts of shit in there that they're intentionally vague about. Granted horse is a bit of a new one, but from what I hear, the food production companies and supermarkets were as unaware as the consumers were, supposedly it's linked to a crime syndicate in Poland or something 

Still, I feel sorry for Lidl, they were shocked to find that the meat quality of their burgers was much higher than usual


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 9, 2013)

Dreaming said:


> This is cheap mass production meat here, there's all sorts of shit in there that they're intentionally vague about. Granted horse is a bit of a new one, but from what I hear,* the food production companies* and supermarkets were as unaware as the consumers were, supposedly it's linked to a crime syndicate in Poland or something
> 
> Still, I feel sorry for Lidl, they were shocked to find that the meat quality of their burgers was much higher than usual



Erm...unless the food production companies are working with blindfolds on they know damn well what goes into their products.


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## Schwimmwagen (Feb 9, 2013)

I guess the moral of the story is to buy local meat and make your own burgers.


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## Aetius (Feb 9, 2013)

I heard beef in the UK was awful anyway. That and the joys of madcow :V


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 9, 2013)

Aetius said:


> I heard beef in the UK was awful anyway. That and the joys of madcow :V



It's awful if mum cooks it. Last time she over did it. I swear it was like trying to eat a rubber tire. You could have probably made tires out of it.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 9, 2013)

d.batty said:


> Apparently burger king in Britain also sold horse meat as beef burgers.



I think this was a daily mail story actually, so it may not be true. 

Furthermore in response to your prev' comment clearly if people have been eating 100% horse meat and thinking it was beef the taste difference in processed food is negligable. 


Anyway @ this whole subject I don't even know what beef tastes like. Even before I was a vegetarian my mum never allowed the family to eat it because of the MadCow disease.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 9, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I think this was a daily mail story actually, so it may not be true.
> 
> Furthermore in response to your prev' comment clearly if people have been eating 100% horse meat and thinking it was beef the taste difference in processed food is negligable.
> 
> ...



That disease no longer exists here, They have very strict rules on what parts of the cow can and can't be consumed/processed for consumption.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 9, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> That disease no longer exists here, They have very strict rules on what parts of the cow can and can't be consumed/processed for consumption.



I'm not sure whether it was still present when I was a child.

Furthermore the strict rules for what parts of a cow can be consumed seem to have lead to bits of horse manifesting as beef, so their reliability is of a dubious nature.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 9, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I'm not sure whether it was still present when I was a child.
> 
> Furthermore the strict rules for what parts of a cow can be consumed seem to have lead to bits of horse manifesting as beef, so their reliability is of a dubious nature.



From what I understand even though Findus is a British company, they company they use to produce the lasagne is in France.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 9, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> From what I understand even though Findus is a British company, they company they use to produce the lasagne is in France.



Oui, Comigel.


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## ADF (Feb 10, 2013)

I've noted the news today saying we cannot stop more contaminated meat coming into the country, because the European single market prevents us from controlling what is imported into the country; unless we can demonstrate a threat to public health.

So EU strikes again >.=.> ...


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## Fallowfox (Feb 10, 2013)

ADF said:


> I've noted the news today saying we cannot stop more contaminated meat coming into the country, because the European single market prevents us from controlling what is imported into the country; unless we can demonstrate a threat to public health.
> 
> So EU strikes again >.=.> ...



I doubt this. Importing meat that isn't properlly labled and traced is in fact criminal, whether it is horse, beef or chinchilla.

You can sell horse meat if you want, or meat that has horse mixed in with it, but you have to be transparent. 

This news sounds as bogus as 'the EU has made a law that all bananas have to be straight' Or 'Brussels politicians are going to ban britons from drinking english ale,'.


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## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 10, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I doubt this. Importing meat that isn't properlly labled and traced is in fact criminal, whether it is horse, beef or chinchilla.
> 
> You can sell horse meat if you want, or meat that has horse mixed in with it, but you have to be transparent.
> 
> This news sounds as bogus as 'the EU has made a law that all bananas have to be straight' Or 'Brussels politicians are going to ban britons from drinking english ale,'.



Ya, I'm with Fallowfox on this. I'm not very familiar with how the EU works but, it seems to me that the EU couldn't really get away with telling it's constituent countries what they can and can't import since each country is still there own country. I could be wrong thou.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 10, 2013)

RadioactiveRedFox said:


> Ya, I'm with Fallowfox on this. I'm not very familiar with how the EU works but, it seems to me that the EU couldn't really get away with telling it's constituent countries what they can and can't import since each country is still there own country. I could be wrong thou.



Whilst the EU can, to some extent, affect the migration of goods and money across EU countries' borders it most certainly cannot instruct its member countries to transport criminal goods around. 

What adf is missing is that if you are selling meat that is unmarked and untraceable then this *is* a public health concern and a crime.


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## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 10, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Whilst the EU can, to some extent, affect the migration of goods and money across EU countries' borders it most certainly cannot instruct its member countries to transport criminal goods around.
> 
> What adf is missing is that if you are selling meat that is unmarked and untraceable then this *is* a public health concern and a crime.



Alright, that makes sense.


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## Azure (Feb 10, 2013)

so today I had a seabiscuit horse burger, fucking delicious. nothing tastes better than the champ


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## Mayfurr (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Whilst the EU can, to some extent, affect the migration of goods and money across EU countries' borders it most certainly cannot instruct its member countries to transport criminal goods around.
> 
> What adf is missing is that if you are selling meat that is unmarked and untraceable then this *is* a public health concern and a crime.



ADF also misses the point that the the UK *does *actively control stuff like drugs coming in over its borders, so his claim that "_the European single market prevents us from controlling what is imported into the country_" is wrong unless he can demonstrate that there is free, unfettered and untaxed movement of marijuana, crack, cigarettes and booze into the UK from the rest of the EU.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

None of you watched BBC news yesterday did you? They were banging on about it all day. They kept saying we couldn't ban processed meat imports from the EU because the single market prevented us from doing so, that we needed to demonstrate a threat to public safety first. It was said on numerous occasions.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> None of you watched BBC news yesterday did you? They were banging on about it all day. They kept saying we couldn't ban processed meat imports from the EU because the single market prevented us from doing so, that we needed to demonstrate a threat to public safety first. It was said on numerous occasions.



I don't watch the news that much. However I do believe EU countries can import goods between themselves without needing to ask questions or raise concerns about it. I believe that it's only stuff imported from non European countries that get their goods questioned. Then again if you are part of the EU surely we should be able to trust each other enough NOT to need to raise questions. 

I think France needs their butt kicked for not informing anyone of what meat(s) are being used.


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## tbhorse1970 (Feb 11, 2013)

i am glad you guys and girl see how things are not like here in Australia where horse is just for the pet food market. (We do have 2 export kill houses for horses but little is known about them publicly )
and yes i have tried horse looks almost like beef just a darker shade of red and finer grained ( so if you get a fillet of horse and a fillet of beef look at the difference besides the size)


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## Tigercougar (Feb 11, 2013)

Azure said:


> so today I had a seabiscuit horse burger, fucking delicious. nothing tastes better than the champ



You had 70 year-old rotting dead meat and it didn't kill you? I'd say _you _are the champ.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> None of you watched BBC news yesterday did you? They were banging on about it all day. They kept saying we couldn't ban processed meat imports from the EU because the single market prevented us from doing so, that we needed to demonstrate a threat to public safety first. It was said on numerous occasions.



You can ban processed meat being imported by countries which aren't tracing their meat and which are sellign under false pretense. This is both illegal and a public health concern.

You cannot outright ban _all_ processed meat imports if you can't show that there is illegal activity like this going on in each company. etc

I really think you've got the wrong end of the stick, because what you were initially suggesting was rrelevant because this *is* a health concern.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> You can ban processed meat being imported by countries which aren't tracing their meat and which are sellign under false pretense. This is both illegal and a public health concern.
> 
> You cannot outright ban _all_ processed meat imports if you can't show that there is illegal activity like this going on in each company. etc
> 
> I really think you've got the wrong end of the stick, because what you were initially suggesting was rrelevant because this *is* a health concern.



The fact it's being imported and sold here as BEEF lasagne and in fact it isn't entirely beef and in some tested products 100% horse should be enough to raise concern.

It's not a health concern, Horse meat is perfectly okay to eat. What isn't okay is to deceive us consumers.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> You can ban processed meat being imported by countries which aren't tracing their meat and which are sellign under false pretense. This is both illegal and a public health concern.
> 
> You cannot outright ban _all_ processed meat imports if you can't show that there is illegal activity like this going on in each company. etc
> 
> I really think you've got the wrong end of the stick, because what you were initially suggesting was rrelevant because this *is* a health concern.



Apparently it's going to take me linking some news clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT7RBp6nosM (6:08 forward)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BrXImJTJYM (5:52 forward)

In short we cannot put any preventative measures in place to protect the public against these contaminated products, as a direct result of the European single market. They're going to be imported and consumed *during* the investigation, with people discovering what other products are contaminated *after* the fact. A risk of fraud (as they believe we have just scratched the surface) is not grounds to be able to temporarily stop imports, we have to demonstrate a threat to public health first by the single markets rules.

So how exactly am I in the wrong for criticising the EU, when it's clearly EU rules that are preventing a temporary ban in light of this fraud discovery? There is widespread discovery of contaminated meat Europe wide, it's an ongoing investigation with new discoveries made all the time. It's large enough to justify treating all meat products with scrutiny until we know they are not contaminated, especially when the supermarkets self regulation has clearly failed. Findus apparently knew their products were contaminated a week in advance of the public being told.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> Apparently it's going to take me linking some news clips.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT7RBp6nosM (6:08 forward)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BrXImJTJYM (5:52 forward)
> ...



You can take measures, but not a moritorium, such as prohibiting _all _meat imports.
You *can* tell companies that don't have traceable meat to take a hike. 

Banning _all_ processed and frozen food from coming in would be an extreme step, because not all companies are doing this. Only companies suspected of selling under false pretences or contaminated goods should be dealt with- namely by making them label their goods properlly. Y

Your own videos describe moritorium measures correctly. 'Panic measures/ knee jerk reactions'. 
When asked whether they would seek a moritorium without the EU neither of your sources said they would, because that's a shit solution to the problem.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 11, 2013)

We all know the media reports news stories soooo Accurately so we can sooo rely on a news story to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> You can take measures, but not a moritorium, such as prohibiting _all _meat imports.
> You *can* tell companies that don't have traceable meat to take a hike.
> 
> Banning _all_ processed and frozen food from coming in would be an extreme step, because not all companies are doing this. Only companies suspected of selling under false pretences or contaminated goods should be dealt with- namely by making them label their goods properlly. Y
> ...



That's what they're saying now, under EU rules and having party pressure/political ideology deterring any criticism of the EU. What they would have said without the shackles of having to follow EU rules is anyone's guess.

Frankly I just see this as one more example in which the EU infringes on our sovereign control, it's a decision we are *not allowed* to contemplate. I'm not interested in whether people think it's necessary or not, I'm more concerned with it not being a decision we can make in the first place. So keep that in mind before making any additional arguments on why a ban is a bad idea, they're ultimately just rationalisations for a decision we don't control anyway and hence necessary.

Also as a side note, they just announced on the news now that horse meat has now been identified in TESCO frozen products.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> That's what they're saying now, under EU rules and having party pressure/political ideology deterring any criticism of the EU. What they would have said without the shackles of having to follow EU rules is anyone's guess.
> 
> Frankly I just see this as one more example in which the EU infringes on our sovereign control, it's a decision we are *not allowed* to contemplate. I'm not interested in whether people think it's necessary or not, I'm more concerned with it not being a decision we can make in the first place. So keep that in mind before making any additional arguments on why a ban is a bad idea, they're ultimately just rationalisations for a decision we don't control anyway and hence necessary.
> 
> Also as a side note, they just announced on the news now that horse meat has now been identified in TESCO frozen products.



Anyone's guess? ...so you have no clear grounds on which to construct your premise then that the EU's laws are coercing people away from a moritorium.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

Honestly if the EU banned pushing people off of bridges I can see you complaining that this is a decision the UK should have made for itself.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Anyone's guess? ...so you have no clear grounds on which to construct your premise then that the EU's laws are coercing people away from a moritorium.
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> Honestly if the EU banned pushing people off of bridges I can see you complaining that this is a decision the UK should have made for itself.



Don't be ridiculous. It's a legitimate criticism that we don't know what contaminated products are coming into the country, but we cannot restrict them coming in due to EU rules. The political class are intrinsically pro EU, they'd be pro any bureaucracy that enriches and empowers them, so I don't expect them to be critical of the EU when it's obviously at fault here.

We're just scratching the surface right now, god knows what they will be digging up during the full in depth investigation over the coming months.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> Don't be ridiculous. It's a legitimate criticism that we don't know what contaminated products are coming into the country, but we cannot restrict them coming in due to EU rules. The political class are intrinsically pro EU, they'd be pro any bureaucracy that enriches and empowers them, so I don't expect them to be critical of the EU when it's obviously at fault here.
> 
> We're just scratching the surface right now, god knows what they will be digging up during the full in depth investigation over the coming months.



You would have to be hopping mad to impose a moritorium over the evidence so far anyway- it would be reactionary. EU or no EU. 

So complaining that the EU doesn't allow us to do a dumb thing we're not going to do anyway is pretty moot. Still, and this is the most important thing, as consumers nobody's forcing us to buy any of these products, so the most important thing is that if you feel like it you can hold your own personal moritorium.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> You would have to be hopping mad to impose a moritorium over the evidence so far anyway- it would be reactionary. EU or no EU.
> 
> So complaining that the EU doesn't allow us to do a dumb thing we're not going to do anyway is pretty moot. Still, and this is the most important thing, as consumers nobody's forcing us to buy any of these products, so the most important thing is that if you feel like it you can hold your own personal moritorium.



Unnecessary? What this has demonstrated is we have no idea what is in our food, what standards have been flaunted. They had a meat driver on anonymously the other day, saying people would be appalled at the standards behind the scenes. We really have no idea what we're going to find now that these products are under scrutiny. 

They're trying to downplay it has mislabelling (because horse/beef mixed meat is normally sold here?) but there is also suspicions of criminal involvement. It wouldn't be surprising at all if we started making discoveries other than just horse meat at this stage. The horse meat simply demonstrated that standards are too lax to know what is really in this food, and that should have us all very concerned.


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> Unnecessary? What this has demonstrated is we have no idea what is in our food, what standards have been flaunted. They had a meat driver on anonymously the other day, saying people would be appalled at the standards behind the scenes. *We really have no idea *what we're going to find now that these products are under scrutiny.
> 
> They're trying to downplay it has mislabelling (because horse/beef mixed meat is normally sold here?) but there is also suspicions of criminal involvement. It wouldn't be surprising at all if we started making discoveries other than just horse meat at this stage. The horse meat simply demonstrated that standards are too lax to know what is really in this food, and that should have us all very concerned.



So let's find out before taking an extreme action. If there is justification we will be able to impose moritorium anyway. 

If we're all very concerned we can avoid buying the produce, like I do.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> You would have to be hopping mad to impose a moritorium over the evidence so far anyway- it would be reactionary. EU or no EU.
> 
> So complaining that the EU doesn't allow us to do a dumb thing we're not going to do anyway is pretty moot. *Still, and this is the most important thing, as consumers nobody's forcing us to buy any of these products, so the most important thing is that if you feel like it you can hold your own personal moritorium.*



The government still has a duty to protect it's citizens which means not importing contaminated shit. You seem to be missing the point that regardless of whether we can choose to purchase the goods or not the lasagne in question was still wrongly advertised as being one thing when it was actually something else which is against trading rules in this country.


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> The government still has a duty to protect it's citizens which means not importing contaminated shit. You seem to be missing the point that regardless of whether we can choose to purchase the goods or not the lasagne in question was still wrongly advertised as being one thing when it was actually something else which is against trading rules in this country.



And which _isn't _justification to impose a moritorium 'on all frozen meat,' because the assessed threat to health is minimal. Something indeed must be done, but a moritorium is a counter productive and belligerant solution [not that I wouldn't take any satisfaction in seeing the meat industry nose dive itself into the ground].

If you personally feel it _is_ a threat then nobody's making you buy the products.


----------



## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> And which _isn't _justification to impose a moritorium 'on all frozen meat,' because the assessed threat to health is minimal. Something indeed must be done, but a moritorium is a counter productive and belligerant solution [not that I wouldn't take any satisfaction in seeing the meat industry nose dive itself into the ground].
> 
> *If you personally feel it is a threat then nobody's making you buy the products.*



That is besides the point, it's STILL being brought into this country and it shouldn't be. You do realize animal pain killers were also found in the tested lasagne right?


----------



## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> So let's find out before taking an extreme action. If there is justification we will be able to impose moritorium anyway.
> 
> If we're all very concerned we can avoid buying the produce, like I do.



And should we discover contamination is far more wide spread than we know now, people will have been consuming them for weeks. Which might not just be horse meat, it could be other containments in other products. Because if this got in without our knowledge, anything else could.

Quite frankly I don't just blame the EU and them exposing us to countries with a lot of problems, it's globalism as a whole. This almost cultist fascination with everything having to be done at a international scale, with local suppliers being scorned for being pennies more expensive. There is far more likely to be fraud and lax standards operating at this scale, than if the whole process occurred in one country.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> That is besides the point, it's STILL being brought into this country and it shouldn't be. You do realize animal pain killers were also found in the tested lasagne right?




Bute concentrations some _thousand times lower_ in concentration than the level which causes any effect, according to BBC news. 

The point is there is not yet justification to halt import of 'all frozen meat' and that's why it's not happening. Terminating the import of the offending companies, who's untraced meat is a crime, in particular, rather than _all_ continental companies, is a good idea. I'm not sure whether that's already been done though. It's not 'illegal' under EU law to ban imports from specific companies you know are selling illegally.




ADF said:


> And should we discover contamination is far more wide  spread than we know now, people will have been consuming them for  weeks. Which might not just be horse meat, it could be other  containments in other products. Because if this got in without our  knowledge, anything else could.
> 
> Quite frankly I don't just blame the EU and them exposing us to  countries with a lot of problems, it's globalism as a whole. This almost  cultist fascination with everything having to be done at a  international scale, with local supplies being scorned for being pennies  more expensive. There is far more likely to be fraud and lax standards  operating at this scale, than if the whole process occurred in one  country.



You need a proper justification to impose a moritorium on all the frozen meat. Much of it is not contaminated, so you'd be banning hundreds of companies when only a few are responsible for contamination that is not yet understood as harmful to human health.

There isn't justification to introduce panic policy yet.

Global fan or not our country eats more food than it produces. We *have* to import some.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> You need a proper justification to impose a moritorium on all the frozen meat. Much of it is not contaminated, so you'd be banning hundreds of companies when only a few are responsible for contamination that is not yet understood as harmful to human health.
> 
> There isn't justification to introduce panic policy yet.



Just to clarify, it's processed meat that they're looking at, not frozen meat. Because it's far easier to identify a solid piece of meat isn't beef than if being mixed in with other things.

We've already identified that the current system is compromised and not fit for purpose. Quite frankly this is very serious and the whole movement of processed meat should be halted until we know to what extent the quality has been compromised, because we don't know if there is something dangerous in this food. If there is, the present government is going to be skinned for not acting sooner.

But we've established that you don't believe it is necessary, so I'm just stating what I believe.



Fallowfox said:


> Global fan or not our country eats more food than it produces. We *have* to import some.



I'm currently reading a book called Vegetable Growing - Month by month, by John Harrison. In it they talked about a supermarket that was sourcing salad from a farm five miles down the road. Great. The problem is once this salad was harvested, it was being flown to Poland for cleaning and packaging; and then flown back to be sold at that supermarket... five miles from where it was grown.

Stuff like that isn't about supply, it's totally unnecessary.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallow, you are talking to ADF.
Arguing with him about the EU is like arguing with Westboros about homosexuals...


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> Just to clarify, it's processed meat that they're looking at, not frozen meat. Because it's far easier to identify a solid piece of meat isn't beef than if being mixed in with other things.
> 
> We've already identified that the current system is compromised and not fit for purpose. Quite frankly this is very serious and the whole movement of processed meat should be halted until we know to what extent the quality has been compromised, because we don't know if there is something dangerous in this food. If there is, the present government is going to be skinned for not acting sooner.
> 
> ...



Apologies; frozen meat was the term used in one of your quoted videos. 
What you believe is unfortunately not fully supported and motivated by quite a bit of heresay and conjecture. 

Stuff like that is indeed silly, although not representative of the global food trade as a whole, which is actually essential if we want to have all the food we want. [as is intensive farming GM and use of pesticides. It's simply not possible to feed a continent where ~70% live in urban areas and consume more food than it is physically possible for their homelands to produce without this- although supplimenting your food with home growns certainy is a good thing]


----------



## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Fallow, you are talking to ADF.
> Arguing with him about the EU is like arguing with Westboros about homosexuals...



What you're doing right now is making an attack on my character, rather than my argument. You should know how that is seen.


----------



## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Apologies; frozen meat was the term used in one of your quoted videos.
> 
> Stuff like that is indeed silly, although not representative of the global food trade as a whole, which is actually essential if we want to have all the food we want. [as is intensive farming GM and use of pesticides. It's simply not possible to feed a continent where ~70% live in urban areas and consume more food than it is physically possible for their homelands to produce without this- although supplimenting your food with home growns certainy is a good thing]



They do it to some fish as well. They catch it here, ship it off to a poor country to be de-boned and gutted, then bring it back to where it was caught for sale... I don't like globalism and the race to the bottom economics that it creates, I don't think we need it for a healthy functioning food supply (globalism =/= international trade), and quite the opposite it compromises the quality of the food supply as we are seeing now. We cannot maintain control of the quality of food if we're shipping it around to save pennies. It may very well start out 100% beef when we send it out to be processed, but who knows what they bulk it with when it's sent back. We know whatever checks are in place have failed.

Countries are going to have to take more responsibility with what happens to their food. If that's the only consequence of the horse meat scandal, we will all be better off.


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> They do it to some fish as well. They catch it here, ship it off to a poor country to be de-boned and gutted, then bring it back to where it was caught for sale... I don't like globalism and the race to the bottom economics that it creates, I don't think we need it for a healthy functioning food supply (globalism =/= international trade), and quite the opposite it compromises the quality of the food supply as we are seeing now. We cannot maintain control of the quality of food if we're shipping it around to save pennies. It may very well start out 100% beef when we send it out to be processed, but who knows what they bulk it with when it's sent back. We know whatever checks are in place have failed.
> 
> Countries are going to have to take more responsibility with what happens to their food. If that's the only consequence of the horse meat scandal, we will all be better off.



I wrongly said 'globalism' a few posts back. I should have said 'globalisation'. 

Globalisation includes international trade...I think you have a different idea of globalisation to what it actually encompasses. 
Plus food is not always shipped to save pennies, quite physically some countries do not grow all the food they need or even have the land area to do so if they tried, such as the UK, so it is a necessity in many cases. 

I do think food should travel the least distance it has to, that's cheaper, cleaner and fresher, but globalising the food market is necessary. Problems with it will have to be ironed out, rather than retreating from it entirely. If we think it's a mess it is one we are going to have to clean up, because we certainly can't abandon it.


----------



## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I wrongly said 'globalism' a few posts back. I should have said 'globalisation'.
> 
> Globalisation includes international trade...I think you have a different idea of globalisation to what it actually encompasses.
> Plus food is not always shipped to save pennies, quite physically some countries do not grow all the food they need or even have the land area to do so if they tried, such as the UK, so it is a necessity in many cases.



Globalism of course includes international trade, but it's the approach. There is a difference between simply importing food grown from say France, in order to satisfy a lack of local supply, and setting your businesses model to fully utilise the global market. They've pretty much made some British grown food varieties extinct in supermarkets. Not because of the lack of local supply or demand, but because another variety better suits 'their' needs or allows slightly higher margins for them. Supermarket tomatoes are trash for instance, they're selected for transport and appearance; not flavour. I also recall a documentary on British food, that edition being the British runner bean, pointing out that supermarkets don't stock them. They stock varieties from elsewhere in the world for one reason or another. Even though they're a staple for anyone growing their own.

They can of course argue the consumer gets better value for it, but at what cost? We cannot guarantee the countries where they are grown operate by our standards, even if they claim to.



Fallowfox said:


> I do think food should travel the least distance it has to, that's cheaper, cleaner and fresher, but globalising the food market is necessary. Problems with it will have to be ironed out, rather than retreating from it entirely. If we think it's a mess it is one we are going to have to clean up, because we certainly can't abandon it.



We're not the world police, we can only control what goes on in our own country. Beyond that, there has to be a will in our government to check everything coming in. Which there isn't, given it took DNA testing outside of England for this to come to light. Maybe this scandal will give them the necessary kick up the backside to take the matter seriously.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> What you're doing right now is making an attack on my character, rather than my argument. You should know how that is seen.


Your character as basis of all your arguments.
You take some TV show as proof that [topic] is evil, not some traceable proof, just "they said".
You have shown anti-EU bias before.
You are saying that all of politics is far up the EU's ass and that any media-coverage that doesn't 100% support your opinion as being forced because of "the EU's shackles",
when actually it's not that hard to notice how "the EU is evil!" is used as a populist-war cry.

Call me an arrogant asshole, but all of that makes me dismiss your character/reason on this topic. You may be a great guy over all or whatever, when it comes to this topic, there is nothing missed when your comments are skipped (like locally the "Bild" Zeitung, or the "daily mail" for you brits or the westboros for the yanks. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to pay attention to everything)


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Your character as basis of all your arguments.
> You take some TV show as proof that [topic] is evil, not some traceable proof, just "they said".
> You have shown anti-EU bias before.
> You are saying that all of politics is far up the EU's ass and that any media-coverage that doesn't 100% support your opinion as being forced because of "the EU's shackles",
> ...



I don't hide the fact that I am anti EU, and I have seen enough to justify to myself to hold that position. Oh, and I don't read the Daily Mail.

As for everything else, it's just an attack on a specific user and has no place in this thread. I brought up the EU, with my Eurosceptic lean, because the EU is relevant to this subject in a negative way.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> I don't hide the fact that I am anti EU, and I have seen enough to justify to myself to hold that position. Oh, and I don't read the Daily Mail.
> 
> As for everything else, it's just an attack on a specific user and has no place in this thread. I brought up the EU, with my Eurosceptic lean,* because the EU is relevant to this subject in a negative way*.


It is related in your interpretation, which isn't unchallenged.
And from past readings of your posts... well... It seems feasible that the connection to the EU is born out of paranoia, not facts.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> It is related in your interpretation, which isn't unchallenged.
> And from past readings of your posts... well... It seems feasible that the connection to the EU is born out of paranoia, not facts.



You're derailing the thread... The EU was brought up because the European common market is relevant to the topic, in the context that it restricts how we can respond to the uncertainty of what products are contaminated. It's relevant to the topic, but isn't the topic itself. End of story, not taken beyond that. So you really have to stop going on about how much I apparently infuriate you, because this topic will get derailed if I start responding to your accusations.


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqsU1KfydXE

Where we are up to on the scandal thus far.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> You're derailing the thread... The EU was brought up because the European common market is relevant to the topic, in the context that it restricts how we can respond to the uncertainty of what products are contaminated. It's relevant to the topic, but isn't the topic itself. End of story, not taken beyond that. So you really have to stop going on about how much I apparently infuriate you, because this topic will get derailed if I start responding to your accusations.


It restricts measures that would be infeasible anyway.
I'm not going on about how you infuriate me, i initially warned fallow how talking with you on that topic is useless, after that i explained my actions/motives to you.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 11, 2013)

ADF said:


> Globalism of course includes international trade, but it's the approach. There is a difference between simply importing food grown from say France, in order to satisfy a lack of local supply, and setting your businesses model to fully utilise the global market. They've pretty much made some British grown food varieties extinct in supermarkets. Not because of the lack of local supply or demand, but because another variety better suits 'their' needs or allows slightly higher margins for them. Supermarket tomatoes are trash for instance, they're selected for transport and appearance; not flavour. I also recall a documentary on British food, that edition being the British runner bean, pointing out that supermarkets don't stock them. They stock varieties from elsewhere in the world for one reason or another. Even though they're a staple for anyone growing their own.
> 
> They can of course argue the consumer gets better value for it, but at what cost? We cannot guarantee the countries where they are grown operate by our standards, even if they claim to.
> 
> ...



More importantly if you think it's about the economic bottom line everyone needs to agree on better [higher less loop-holey] charges for food's carbon footprint. 
Transporting food unnecasserily stops being lucrative, less carbon emissions.



ADF said:


> I don't hide the fact that I am anti EU, and I have  seen enough to justify to myself to hold that position. Oh, and I don't  read the Daily Mail.
> 
> As for everything else, it's just an attack on a specific user and has  no place in this thread. I brought up the EU, with my Eurosceptic lean,  because the EU is relevant to this subject in a negative way.



Point of fact you brought up the EU because you will take any opportunity to blame them for anything, and then call this 'euro-skepticism'. 

It's actually alarmism, because the EU's laws on moritorium are of slim relevance to a situation in which it's incredibly unlikely moritorium without proof of health detriment is going to take place. 

The only contrary argument to that being your personal view that 'they're only saying that 'cause all the politicians are forced to be pro eu'


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## ADF (Feb 11, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> More importantly if you think it's about the economic bottom line everyone needs to agree on better [higher less loop-holey] charges for food's carbon footprint.
> Transporting food unnecasserily stops being lucrative, less carbon emissions.



It's a difficult subject that branches into many other areas. For instance it's easy to say to tax the problem, adding a cost deterrent to purchasing imported goods. But cheaper goods these days aren't just about spending less for the consumer, wages have been dropping for decades, so there is the question of whether they need to be cheaper to accommodate diminishing disposable income. So it's become a self fulfilling problem. We outsource labour for cheaper goods, but the reduced demand for labour hurts wages, which creates the need for cheaper goods. We really don't want to aggravate the growing food poverty in this country by making food more expensive, because the cost will be passed onto the consumer. Combating falling wages while remaining competitive in world trade is a problem all on its own.

The EU (yes, I know) also probably wouldn't like the idea that one of its member states is applying "protectionist behaviour" in the single market, by taxing food imported into the country and making locally grown stuff more desirable. We have to remember that this is the organisation that requires member states to advertise all government acquirement Europe wide, they're not allowed to just source locally. So the UK government isn't allowed to "discriminate" against foreign European companies by favouring local ones, which a tax on imports from the single market could be interpreted as. Looking internationally, other countries would probably interpret it as a tariff on their imports and return the favour.

That and companies fully embracing globalism, having no loyalty to any one specific country, somehow always find a way around these things. Say for instance after the EU gives us the evil eye, we decide not to apply carbon taxes on food from the single market, just outside it. A company from outside could then have their goods sent to a European country without this tax, then have it sent to us from there. Granted, this would depend on if the EU's own protectionist behaviours don't interfere with the cost saving of that. The EU often has tariffs and other controls in place against the rest of the world in order to protect European produce, as it seems protectionism is ok if it's aimed at none Europeans. For example there is a tax on all garlic imported into the EU, encouraging companies to source it from within the single market.

I know I'm basically making all sorts of arguments criticising what you've suggested, while offering no solutions of my own. It's a difficult topic and one difficult to resolve with all the interests involved. I mean, look at the video I posted above. Food is moved all over the place, it's difficult just to keep track of who is responsible for what.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 11, 2013)

so i just had some more horse burgers today. Fucking delicious.


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## Mayfurr (Feb 12, 2013)

Hello Great Britain? Buy beef and lamb from New Zealand - it's 100% equine free 

/shameless plug


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## Schwimmwagen (Feb 12, 2013)

So I looked in the local paper and one headline is about the horse meat scare featuring a picture of two butchers at work, huehue-ing like mad over their skyrocketing meat sales.

I guess this whole fiasco has some local benefit.


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## Dreaming (Feb 12, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> More importantly if you think it's about the economic bottom line everyone needs to agree on better [higher less loop-holey] charges for food's carbon footprint.
> Transporting food unnecasserily stops being lucrative, less carbon emissions.
> 
> 
> ...


The fact that the UK would still import meat from the continent, for a variety of reasons. Price, convenience, proximity. WIthout the EU regulations I'm guessing there would be UK regulations, and we'd have to assume they would be more effective than EU regulations and wouldn't have lead to something like this 

Well basically, EU or not the UK would still be buying meat from Benelux and the East which would be subject to similar if not worse regulations


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## Fallowfox (Feb 12, 2013)

Mayfurr said:


> Hello Great Britain? Buy beef and lamb from New Zealand - it's 100% equine free
> 
> /shameless plug




Oh god...this reminds me of seeing that advert for a newzealand drink that used horse semen as an ingrediant. e_O


----------



## Bambi (Feb 12, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Oh god...this reminds me of seeing that advert for a newzealand drink that used horse semen as an ingrediant. e_O


O_O

... HOW?! Like just

No, no _*WHY?!!*_


----------



## Fallowfox (Feb 12, 2013)

Bambi said:


> O_O
> 
> ... HOW?! Like just
> 
> No, no _*WHY?!!*_



They claim it increases virility I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtSG9pnLdI
[NSFW?]


----------



## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 12, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> They claim it increases virility I think.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtSG9pnLdI
> [NSFW?]



That sounds like some of the folk medicine stuff that comes out of China, it's hard to believe that peoples still buy into that crap.


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## Fallowfox (Feb 12, 2013)

RadioactiveRedFox said:


> That sounds like some of the folk medicine stuff that comes out of China, it's hard to believe that peoples still buy into that crap.



The people are happy drinking their 'custard' and a certain horse is very happy, what's not to like? :V

I bet you could persuade people to inject the stuff.


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## RadioactiveRedFox (Feb 12, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> The people are happy drinking their 'custard' and a certain horse is very happy, what's not to like? :V



I guess when you put it that way...:V



> I bet you could persuade people to inject the stuff.



It probably wouldn't difficult either.


----------



## Azure (Feb 12, 2013)

Tigercougar said:


> You had 70 year-old rotting dead meat and it didn't kill you? I'd say _you _are the champ.


no wonder it tasted a tad gamy...


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## Mayfurr (Feb 13, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Oh god...this reminds me of seeing that advert for a newzealand drink that used horse semen as an ingrediant. e_O



Yes, I've heard of that - and no, I haven't tried it. I DO have _some _standards


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## Ranguvar (Feb 13, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Oh god...this reminds me of seeing that advert for a newzealand drink that used horse semen as an ingrediant. e_O


Question. Would it be gay if I were to swallow?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 13, 2013)

Just watched a news report and the EU wants the scandal to be investigated and to find out how much of our beef has been sold as horse meat and apparently anyone caught doing it will face the full extent of the law.


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

Here we go, it was only a matter of time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21573158

It's spreading. Yesterday it was horse meat, but now they're looking properly they're finding fraud in other food groups.


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## CaptainCool (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> Here we go, it was only a matter of time.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21573158
> 
> It's spreading. Tomorrow it was horse meat, but now they're looking properly they're finding fraud in other food groups.



Organic food is bullshit anyway.


----------



## Ricky (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> Here we go, it was only a matter of time.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21573158
> 
> It's spreading. Tomorrow it was horse meat, but now they're looking properly they're finding fraud in other food groups.



Eggs are the same food group as beef =P

That said, I didn't notice this 2-week-old thread you just bumped when posting this one.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> Here we go, it was only a matter of time.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21573158
> 
> It's spreading. Tomorrow it was horse meat, but now they're looking properly they're finding fraud in other food groups.



Imo we as the consumer might as well save our pennies and buy the normal stuff because if the label says "organic" or Free Range" or"beef" you can't guarantee that the label is telling the truth.


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## Ricky (Feb 26, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Imo we as the consumer might as well save our pennies and buy the normal stuff because if the label says "organic" or Free Range" or"beef" you can't guarantee that the label is telling the truth.



Do you only buy organic and free range products, Randy?


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> Organic food is bullshit anyway.



You're missing the point. Food has to be as described, if not it's fraud. You don't care about organic, but there are those who do and there is a market charging a premium due to the higher cost of organic food. Selling none organic eggs as organic is getting the profit of a organic product without the expense.

All these people saying "we eat beef, why not horse" or anything along those lines have failed to recognise the seriousness of us not knowing what's in our food, and that the regulatory system has blatantly failed. It's a question of getting what you pay for, and even more concerning; what we don't know about what we're eating could be dangerous.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 26, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Do you only buy organic and free range products, Randy?



Hell no. 



ADF said:


> You're missing the point. Food has to be as described, if not it's fraud. You don't care about organic, but there are those who do and there is a market charging a premium due to the higher cost of organic food. Selling none organic eggs as organic is getting the profit of a organic product without the expense.
> 
> All these people saying "we eat beef, why not horse" or anything along those lines have failed to recognise the seriousness of us not knowing what's in our food, and that the regulatory system has blatantly failed. It's a question of getting what you pay for, and even more concerning; what we don't know about what we're eating could be dangerous.



I have heard many people say the same thing. My view is I'd eat horse meat, IF it was processed like a joint of beef, or pork so I knew it was what I was getting, I'd also eat it other products like lasagne if it was labeled as such. However the whole issue, as you stated is that foods are not being labeled correctly and therefore misleading us, the consumer. 

Really any product you buy has to be as described. I mean, you wouldn't want to buy a tin of paint that says white on it, you get it home, open it up and find it's actually blue. That was just an example.


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## Ricky (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> You're missing the point. Food has to be as described, if not it's fraud. You don't care about organic, but there are those who do and there is a market charging a premium due to the higher cost of organic food. Selling none organic eggs as organic is getting the profit of a organic product without the expense.



You're missing *his* point.

People who buy organic food are getting scammed anyway, because it's all marketing hype and BS.


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> I have heard many people say the same thing. My view is I'd eat horse meat, IF it was processed like a joint of beef, or pork so I knew it was what I was getting, I'd also eat it other products like lasagne if it was labeled as such. However the whole issue, as you stated is that foods are not being labeled correctly and therefore misleading us, the consumer.
> 
> Really any product you buy has to be as described. I mean, you wouldn't want to buy a tin of paint that says white on it, you get it home, open it up and find it's actually blue. That was just an example.



What we eat is a more serious matter. Other than just being fraud (not simply mis-labelling, as they spin it), they have found drugs in this meat which is banned in any meat intended for human consumption. They're downplaying that it's in too diluted levels to cause harm, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a banned drug in human grade food. If it's as safe as they said in these levels, why is it still banned? They're downplaying it because they know thousands have already consumed it and don't want to cause a panic, what's done is done.

But that's what we know, what don't we know? If this slipped through the net then something more serious easily could of, which is why an immediate investigation is essential. The "meat is meat" crowed have failed to recognise the significance of all this. If this was toys, that baby could be sucking on lead paint right now.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 26, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You're missing *his* point.
> 
> People who buy organic food are getting scammed anyway, because it's all marketing hype and BS.



Just because some are scamming the consumer doesn't mean all are.


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You're missing *his* point.
> 
> People who buy organic food are getting scammed anyway, because it's all marketing hype and BS.



All organic food is; is vegetables/animals raised through natural means. As in cows raised on grass and not fed on processed pelleted food, vegetables not sprayed in pesticides or fed chemical fertilisers that disrupt the soils biology etc. As in how food was produced for thousands of years, only changing in the last 50 years. If you don't think it's desirable to not eat a salad with a chemical dressing, fine, but don't demean those who are health concious and consider it desirable.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> How would we know? The system in place to detect scamming failed to pick up the horse meat for years, and it is being discovered where it shouldn't be Europe wide.
> 
> That's the problem, we have no idea what has been going on undetected.



Which is why investigations need to be done and the regulations enforced, because obviously regulations are not being enforced. But we can't just go around and assume all companies are scamming us without sufficient proof.


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> Which is why investigations need to be done and the regulations enforced, because obviously regulations are not being enforced. But we can't just go around and assume all companies are scamming us without sufficient proof.



I misinterpreted your post, but looks like you saw it before the edit. So I agree with you that we don't operate on a guilty until innocent policy, but a significant investigation is necessary; despite some people thinking all this isn't a big deal.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> I misinterpreted your post, but looks like you saw it before the edit. So I agree with you that we don't operate on a guilty until innocent policy, but a significant investigation is necessary; despite some people thinking all this isn't a big deal.



On one hand it's not as no health issues are present, well with the exceptions of some small amounts of pain killer found in the lasagne which could pose a health risk IF too much of said pain killer leaks into it. On the other hand it is a big issue cause we do not know what else companies have been getting away with.


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## Mayfurr (Feb 26, 2013)

My doctor has told me I should watch what I eat, so I went down to the local racecourse...


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 26, 2013)

Mayfurr said:


> My doctor has told me I should watch what I eat, so I went down to the local racecourse...



That is just a variation of a joke I have seen running wild on FB recently.


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## Gryphoneer (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> All organic food is; is vegetables/animals raised through natural means. As in cows raised on grass and not fed on processed pelleted food, vegetables not sprayed in pesticides or fed chemical fertilisers that disrupt the soils biology etc. As in how food was produced for thousands of years, only changing in the last 50 years. If you don't think it's desirable to not eat a salad with a chemical dressing, fine, but don't demean those who are health concious and consider it desirable.


You're only proving his point; you're taken in by the marketing narrative.

Listen to yourself and think about what all those words/prefixes mean. "Organic", "bio", "eco" = is made up of biological matter. _Period_. Every single product made via those eeeeebil industrialised methods falls into this broadest of categories, which is why those terms couldn't be legally defined and Big Food shamelessly exploited this state of beings. Surprise, another study finds out "bio" products aren't actually the result of back-to-nature 17th century-style farming, but of the same industry everyone else works for! Tune in next quarter for another study finding out exactly the same, only for a different set of products!

"Green" food is merely the latest snake oil peddled and a bestseller because enough buyers are convinced _biorgreenic = good for you_.


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> You're only proving his point; you're taken in by the marketing narrative.
> 
> Listen to yourself and think about what all those words/prefixes mean. "Organic", "bio", "eco" = is made up of biological matter. _Period_. Every single product made via those eeeeebil industrialised methods falls into this broadest of categories, which is why those terms couldn't be legally defined and Big Food shamelessly exploited this state of beings. Surprise, another study finds out "bio" products aren't actually the result of back-to-nature 17th century-style farming, but of the same industry everyone else works for! Tune in next quarter for another study finding out exactly the same, only for a different set of products!
> 
> "Green" food is merely the latest snake oil peddled and a bestseller because enough buyers are convinced _biorgreenic = good for you_.



Let me guess, if I ask that people just drop it and get back on topic (rather than allow this to dominate it) I'm a brainwashed idiot in denial; who doesn't want to hear the truth of how pesticides and other chemicals are fine for you? If all your food comes from a supermarket, then yes you can get conned. 'Supplementing' your diet with organic home grown produce on the other hand is a different matter. And no, before you jump down my throat I'm not interested in being lectured about how that's impractical for the majority either, I'm talking about the people who do bother to take responsibility.

So moving on?


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> Let me guess, if I ask that people just drop it and get back on topic (rather than allow this to dominate it) I'm a brainwashed idiot in denial; who doesn't want to hear the truth of how pesticides and other chemicals are fine for you? If all your food comes from a supermarket, then yes you can get conned. 'Supplementing' your diet with organic home grown produce on the other hand is a different matter. And no, before you jump down my throat I'm not interested in being lectured about how that's impractical for the majority either, I'm talking about the people who do bother to take responsibility.
> 
> So moving on?


He might mean, that whatever is sold as "Organic" "bio" "eco" or so on food is normal food, just with some fancy made up "Organic" (/etc) seal on it and an increased price.


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## ADF (Feb 26, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> He might mean, that whatever is sold as "Organic" "bio" "eco" or so on food is normal food, just with some fancy made up "Organic" (/etc) seal on it and an increased price.



Depends on if your supplier is trustworthy, or of course you grew it yourself so can be sure it wasn't grown with chemicals.

The last time I talked about organic, people on here practically burned me at the stake... and I'm getting that vibe again...

They don't want it, fine, they do that. To each their own. What gets me is that's apparently unacceptable, and I 'must' convert to their way of thinking. Like they need to convert others to reassure themselves that their view is the correct one.

Just drop it, it isn't the topic.


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## Zaraphayx (Feb 26, 2013)

I like when people use the term "chemicals" as if that word is self-evidently indicative of something bad. :V

Plot twist: it was a marketing scheme like the Pepsi Challenge; can you tell the difference?


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## Fallowfox (Feb 26, 2013)

I don't grow any of my food with chemicals. 

No water, oxygen, carbondioxide, magnesium, potassium or aluminosilicates for my lovingly ecto-plasmic magically-grown super fruits. All they need is love and homeopathic prayers. <3


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## Gryphoneer (Feb 26, 2013)

ADF said:


> I'm a brainwashed idiot in denial; who doesn't want to hear the truth of how pesticides and other chemicals are fine for you


No matter whether you buy only your trusted Whole Foods/BiÅ“co brand or subsist solely on homegrown tomatoes or something, chances are good you get to consume pesticides anyway (and chemicals in any case...).

News flash: those substances don't recognize private porperty borders, and BiÅ“cos are just like the other foodstuffs on display, just with a different sticker on it.


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## Ricky (Feb 26, 2013)

People are always looking for ways to market their products or sell shit for more money.

Some of it is ridiculous. Tropicana for example started selling watered-down orange juice for the same price as regular orange juice.

They don't really hide that fact; the first ingredient listed on the package is "water."

Places are marketing "No HFCS" to masquerade the products as healthy when the first ingredient on the package is "sugar."

And yeah -- "organic" is just a way to sell things for more money.

People are worried about made-up problems from made-up chemicals and stores are using that to make a profit.

When you ask people about the specifics, they don't have a clue. They just know it's better for you :roll:


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## Azure (Feb 26, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> I like when people use the term "chemicals" as if that word is self-evidently indicative of something bad. :V
> 
> Plot twist: it was a marketing scheme like the Pepsi Challenge; can you tell the difference?


yeah, when i drink pepsi it tastes like piss no matter how many "chemicals" they put in it.


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## Hinalle K. (Feb 26, 2013)

Azure said:


> yeah, when i drink pepsi it tastes like piss no matter how many "chemicals" they put in it.


I hear there's a certain Dr. Pepper cola in western countries,which is rather famous.
Is it any better?


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## Sar (Feb 26, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> I like when people use the term "chemicals" as if that word is self-evidently indicative of something bad. :V
> 
> Plot twist: it was a marketing scheme like the Pepsi Challenge; can you tell the difference?


That's the thing. I have had horsemeat before and it tastes exactly the same as beef. I would eat it no problem.
What I can't stand is the arguments about people saying Horsemeat is illegal to be sold in the UK. Noo, it's just in not as big a demand.

Plot Twist 2: I heard on the radio that Horsemeat sales have upped by 15% since the scandal by curiosity. 

If it wasn't for the painkillers found in the meat. I would think it would be less serious an issue and would be less hyped up.



Mayfurr said:


> My doctor has told me I should watch what I eat, so I went down to the local racecourse...


Stop Foaling Around.


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## Roon Sazi (Feb 26, 2013)

Horse meat, cow meat, capybara meat it's all just meat. I don't think it really makes a difference. Even if there are traces of tranquilizers in the meat, whatever doesn't kill you makes you sleepier.


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## Sar (Feb 26, 2013)

Roon Sazi said:


> Horse meat, cow meat, capybara meat it's all just meat. I don't think it really makes a difference. Even if there are traces of tranquilizers in the meat, whatever doesn't kill you makes you sleepier.


Yey 4 Drugz


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## Hinalle K. (Feb 26, 2013)

Roon Sazi said:


> Horse meat, cow meat, capybara meat it's all just meat. I don't think it really makes a difference. Even if there are traces of tranquilizers in the meat, whatever doesn't kill you makes you sleepier.


You're right, it's all just meat in the end

Now let me take a bite of that sexy arm of yours!


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## Roon Sazi (Feb 27, 2013)

Hinalle K. said:


> Now let me take a bite of that sexy arm of yours!



Sorry, I lost a couple of arms in a horrible accident involving 3 soft tacos, a golf club, and a cuckoo clock from 1959. Feel free to try a leg though!


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## ADF (Feb 27, 2013)

So you cannot have pesticide/chemical fertiliser free food, even if you grow it yourself and can control the entire process? Now we're entering the realms of absurdity and ignorance...You just sound insecure about your own food, so are attacking any possibility of something better being out there. Oh and chemical fertiliser feeds can kill a plant if you're not careful with the dosage, and disrupt the biology of the soil by creating an excess in one nutrient. You cannot burn/kill a plant with a excess of organic matter/humus.

In more on topic news... farmers are angry about what has gone on with the horse meat scandal. They work hard to ensure their food is traceable, only for it to be exported and god knows what put into it for, just for the cheap foreign labour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21597596

What good can come from this is an increased focus on British sourced food, rather can a supply chain spreading across the world; making standards impossible to maintain.


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## Zaraphayx (Feb 27, 2013)

ADF said:


> So you cannot have pesticide/chemical fertiliser free food, even if you grow it yourself and can control the entire process? Now we're entering the realms of absurdity and ignorance...You just sound insecure about your own food, so are attacking any possibility of something better being out there. Oh and chemical fertiliser feeds can kill a plant if you're not careful with the dosage, and disrupt the biology of the soil by creating an excess in one nutrient. You cannot burn/kill a plant with a excess of organic matter/humus.



Once you've delved into the "this is how you really feel and I'm here to tell you so" realm of internet pseudo-psychology you've lost all pretense you had of being taken seriously.

Prove with factual evidence that "organic" food makes a significant positive impact on your health or blow it out your holier-than-thou ass.


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## ADF (Feb 27, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> Once you've delved into the "this is how you really feel and I'm here to tell you so" realm of internet pseudo-psychology you've lost all pretense you had of being taken seriously.
> 
> Prove with factual evidence that "organic" food makes a significant positive impact on your health or blow it out your holier-than-thou ass.



Why do you all have such a stick up your arse, that just the indirect reference to organic (chicken egg fraud) sends you all into a lynch mob?

This thread isn't about organic, I am not trying to sell it to you, it only got mentioned to this extent because people like you *made* it into an issue.

Moving on...


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 27, 2013)

Roon Sazi said:


> Horse meat, cow meat, capybara meat it's all just meat. I don't think it really makes a difference. Even if there are traces of tranquilizers in the meat, whatever doesn't kill you makes you sleepier.



That is not the point of the issue. The point is it was being used without anyone knowing. As I have said before we as the consumer have a right to know what is in what we eat regardless of whether it could cause harm or not. Not to mention the companies involved are committing a trading offense by falsely labeling their products which is also misleading to the consumer. 

The "meat is just meat" argument you have is bullshit because that is not the point of the matter.


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## CaptainCool (Feb 27, 2013)

So. Did anyone of you go to a store yet, specifically asked for horse lasagna and then left in a disappointed fashion because they proudly said that all their products are horsemeat free?^^


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## DrDingo (Feb 27, 2013)

Yeah, I'll be honest, the news has blown this idea of horse meat to huge proportions, and I want to know what it actually tastes like now.


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## BootsNightingale (Feb 27, 2013)

DrDingo said:


> Yeah, I'll be honest, the news has blown this idea of horse meat to huge proportions, and I want to know what it actually tastes like now.



Well this whole thing has boosted the horse market... I know a few places you can get things like horse burgers - They've even put up a notice saying "No added beef" , unfortunatly you have to order it online and it can be a bit pricey due to the meat transport stuff..


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## Zaraphayx (Feb 27, 2013)

ADF said:


> Why do you all have such a stick up your arse, that just the indirect reference to organic (chicken egg fraud) sends you all into a lynch mob?
> 
> This thread isn't about organic, I am not trying to sell it to you, it only got mentioned to this extent because people like you *made* it into an issue.
> 
> Moving on...



I didn't even read the page where it originally got brought up (in true slacker fashion I read the OP and the last page because everything in between doesn't interest me that much), I just saw some guy championing organic food using subversive debating tactics and felt like chiming in.

"People like me" didn't do anything, but "people like you" are accessories in a culture that inconsistently appeals to skepticism if and only if a claim opposes your already firmly established beliefs.

Basically fact up or admit you're a sucker.


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## ADF (Feb 27, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> I didn't even read the page where it originally got brought up (in true slacker fashion I read the OP and the last page because everything in between doesn't interest me that much), I just saw some guy championing organic food using subversive debating tactics and felt like chiming in.
> 
> "People like me" didn't do anything, but "people like you" are accessories in a culture that inconsistently appeals to skepticism if and only if a claim opposes your already firmly established beliefs.
> 
> Basically fact up or admit you're a sucker.



How can you "fact up" to people who don't even recognise pesticide residue on food is less healthy than none sprayed alternatives? There is a reason they say to wash it before consumption, and no it's not dirt because you can get pre-washed items. If I said a glass of water is healthier than a glass of water with a single drop of soap in it, that highly diluted soap isn't going to hurt you but most would agree they'd prefer the soap free alternative. But if I apply the same logic to vegetables, people jump down your throat. 

I say people but I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are Americans. Despite the horse meat scandal, which at the end of the day is fraud and shouldn't be happening, food standards are higher in Europe in many regards when compared to the US. So I expect Americans to see things differently than those over here, where a lot of foods ok in America are banned for human consumption here.

But the problem here, and one I keep trying to emphasise, is this is not a thread about organic. So I've made 'multiple' efforts to get it back on topic, but you loons are salivating at the opportunity to bash organic; so won't allow it to be dropped. *Derailing the thread even more*. And when I say stop derailing the thread, you say I'm in denial and trying to avoid providing evidence.

It's not the topic, so get over it already. Or are you simply incapable?


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## Ricky (Feb 27, 2013)

ADF said:


> How can you "fact up" to people who don't even recognise pesticide residue on food is less healthy than none sprayed alternatives?



Where is the evidence to back up claims that FDA-approved methods of growing and packaging food are unacceptable?

Oh, wait -- it doesn't exist, because if it did, it would be fucking illegal.

It's like when everyone got upset over GM food. Their arguments lacked any substance as well.


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## Zaraphayx (Feb 27, 2013)

ADF said:


> How can you "fact up" to people who don't even recognise pesticide residue on food is less healthy than none sprayed alternatives? There is a reason they say to wash it before consumption, and no it's not dirt because you can get pre-washed items. If I said a glass of water is healthier than a glass of water with a single drop of soap in it, that highly diluted soap isn't going to hurt you but most would agree they'd prefer the soap free alternative. But if I apply the same logic to vegetables, people jump down your throat.



Argumentum Ad Populum.

Also I doubt I'd be able to taste a dilute amount of soap in my water, I doubt further that it'd have any long-term consequences on my health.




> I say people but I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are Americans. Despite the horse meat scandal, which at the end of the day is fraud and shouldn't be happening, food standards are higher in Europe in many regards when compared to the US. So I expect Americans to see things differently than those over here, where a lot of foods ok in America are banned for human consumption here.



This isn't an argument with any factual relevance to the actual point of contention, it's merely a claim that Europe allegedly has more stringent regulations. Whether or not those regulations are effective or based on sound decision making are left up in the air (and evidence would suggest not, considering the scandal that this thread is about).



> But the problem here, and one I keep trying to emphasise, is this is not a thread about organic. So I've made 'multiple' efforts to get it back on topic, but you loons are salivating at the opportunity to bash organic; so won't allow it to be dropped. *Derailing the thread even more*. And when I say stop derailing the thread, you say I'm in denial and trying to avoid providing evidence.



When you say something you know other people will take issue with you don't get to just accuse everyone else of derailing the thread and absolve yourself of responsibility when the entire situation could have been avoided by keeping it to yourself.



> It's not the topic, so get over it already. Or are you simply incapable?



"I cannot back up anything I say so I'm going to ridicule you into submission"


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## Gryphoneer (Feb 27, 2013)

ADF said:


> So you cannot have pesticide/chemical fertiliser free food, even if you grow it yourself and can control the entire process? Now we're entering the realms of absurdity and ignorance...You just sound insecure about your own food, so are attacking any possibility of something better being out there. Oh and chemical fertiliser feeds can kill a plant if you're not careful with the dosage, and disrupt the biology of the soil by creating an excess in one nutrient. You cannot burn/kill a plant with a excess of organic matter/humus.


Ouch, the raw amounts of fact failure...

Dude, you cannot "control the entire process". Just like greenhouse gases and other polluting particulates know no state borders, so do fertilization agents. They get in the groundwater and nearby fields. The pedosphere is just as interlinked as the atmosphere, so it's unsurprising the side products of industrialised agriculture were found in the cropland of "organic" farmers.

Coming to that chemophobe chestnut, you're aware fertilizers were invented through emulation of nature? They're just the chemical elements plants were found to require for growth in "manmade" (= extracted from nature), concentrated form. In other words, it's the same stuff that makes humus work. And, oh, you are very much able to kill a plant by overfertilizing it with every single "it's natural, therefore it's good for you!" product in existence. Not to mention upsetting the ecological balance of a given habitat...


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## Randy-Darkshade (Feb 27, 2013)

If pesticides were a health issue I think after all these years of using them any health issues would have been found by now. The difference between pesticides being used to grow crops and finding horse meat in processed beef products is that we all KNOW pesticides are used in growing most crops. If you are a country bumpkin like me you'd have most likely seen the crop sprayers out in the fields. 

However with the horse meat saga no one knew it was being used to mix with processed beef.


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## Ricky (Feb 27, 2013)

Zaraphayx said:


> This isn't an argument with any factual relevance to the actual point of contention, it's merely a claim that Europe allegedly has more stringent regulations. Whether or not those regulations are effective or based on sound decision making are left up in the air (and evidence would suggest not, considering the scandal that this thread is about).



In all fairness, I don't think it's *okay* to mislabel food there. I know for a fact that's illegal here in the US but I would also bet that law has been sidestepped a few times. You can't really STOP people from doing things that are wrong. You can only pass laws to try and prevent it from happening.


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## ADF (Feb 27, 2013)

Fuck it, I said to drop it more than enough, I'm not fuelling their apparent inability to stop going down a route that would inevitably take over this thread. I'm not taking the blame for derailing the thread because other people cannot shut up.


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## Zaraphayx (Feb 27, 2013)

Ricky said:


> In all fairness, I don't think it's *okay* to mislabel food there. I know for a fact that's illegal here in the US but I would also bet that law has been sidestepped a few times. You can't really STOP people from doing things that are wrong. You can only pass laws to try and prevent it from happening.



"E for Effort" isn't a defense.

It doesn't matter how superior a model system is if it's corrupted in practice.

Not that the FDA or regulatory systems here in the U.S. aren't rife with problems, but I can't do anything but laugh when someone condescendingly appeals to the superiority of the European Master Race while admitting that it suffered _a massive regulatory failure_ in the exact same breath.

Trying to diminish an opponent's argument by appealing to your cultural superiority void of any relevant qualifications is ridiculous enough, doing it while you are already savvy to facts which weaken your claim substantially is outright contemptuous.



ADF said:


> Fuck it, I said to drop it more than enough, I'm not  fuelling their apparent inability to stop going down a route that would  inevitably take over this thread. I'm not taking the blame for derailing  the thread because other people cannot shut up.



Victory by self-appointed moral superiority!


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## Symlus (Feb 27, 2013)

Time for a relevant Simpsons humor breather.

http://imgur.com/04Jp57j

Don't hate me.


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## ADF (Feb 27, 2013)

Six Welsh councils have withdrawn beef meals from their school menus, through fear they could contain horse meat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21599684

I don't know how they can say something has "potentially" tested positive, it either is or isn't.

But it just again shows how widespread all this is, the system is completely broken.


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## ADF (Feb 28, 2013)

Meat suppliers have been using a loophole to sell banned mechanically recovered meat in Europe...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21530861


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