# my sole problem with writing about furries...



## makmakmob (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't really know why I am writing this because I'm fairly sure I will face the battering of cyberfists and he burning of many a flame for asking yet ANOTHER question[size=small](the ? smiley is always a bad omen)[/size] but, well, here goes.

I try to write an anthro story, and all seems to go well. it makes sense in my mind, the events, the ideas, and the characters make sense as anthros but then it comes to the fateful bit when I try to describe what species/type any said character is.
OMFG I JUST RUINED IT!
I can't seem to find a way of describing whether said character is a wolf, a fox, a lizard or whatever without making everything sound babyish. When I'm trying to write about wars that becomes somewhat frustrating.

If one of those writer-geniuses could tell me how to prevent this problem it would be much appreciated.


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## WolfeByte (Jan 24, 2008)

makmakmob said:
			
		

> I can't seem to find a way of describing whether said character is a wolf, a fox, a lizard or whatever without making everything sound babyish. When I'm trying to write about wars that becomes somewhat frustrating.
> 
> If one of those writer-geniuses could tell me how to prevent this problem it would be much appreciated.



I'm not a writer genius, obviously, because I don't quite grasp the problem you're having.  How does, "Bob was a wolf/fox/lizard who hated his job." sound babyish?  You can't just say that character x is x species and be done with it?


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## RezzyWoof (Jan 24, 2008)

The universe is very big as we all know... you can set your action on a planet where such lifeforms similar to our animals really exist and they're civilized... You can describe the process of evolution or even more... you can say that animals had arrived on that planet with humans who finally abandoned it leaving all animals on their own... After thousands years those animals evolved and developed... Now you have a more realistic base for any description, you can say that your character is an evolved dog or cat with fur covering the body and other similarities as well as differences... you have to keep it believable... if on the Earth such furries don't exist, why not to move the action to the future on an yet unknown planet somewhere in deep abyss of the universe


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## TakeWalker (Jan 24, 2008)

You can shoehorn those bits in just as you might any other description of a character.

"It's far too quiet out here for my liking," the coyote murmured, biting his toothpick in half.

Feigning offense, she scowled at the lizard, who shrank back from her glare. "You think that's funny?"

Any time you would use 'him'/'her'/'the man/woman', you can toss in species and give us a greater picture of the character. It helps if you aren't specific in these cases; one word will suffice. If your dude is a black-backed jackal and it's important he be described as such, let us know he's a jackal first, and then find a way to make mention of his markings later on. (cf. my thread on description  )


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## Coffee (Jan 24, 2008)

After a while or reading yiff you start to be able to distinguish phenotype via nothing but dick-shape. That's what I do. Dig it.


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## Poetigress (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't see how it's babyish to just state it straight out in a way like TakeWalker suggested.  If it sounds babyish, maybe there's not a good reason for the character to be anthro, and they should just be human instead.

One thing that's becoming a major pet peeve of mine when it comes to furry fiction -- be sure to make the characters' species clear as early as you possibly can.  If the reader has to get down to the second page to find out that your character is, say, a husky, they've probably already assumed he's something else by that point (like a wolf or a fox or whatever), and then they have to go back and mentally revise everything they've already envisioned.  To me, that's incredibly jarring and pulls me out of the story.  So describe them however you like, but do it early.


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## Kindar (Jan 25, 2008)

describing a furry specie can be tough, that's why most ofthe time I'll go for simply saying what the speicie is. 

if you want to only go by description, some species will be toughted to describe then other, the less defining caracteristics the species has the toughter it's goingto probably be. 

I would start with reserching what diferenciates the specie form the others, as an example, what diferentiates a wolf from a coyote, or from a fox? and then I would sprinle those here and there where appropriate. I would avoid the "info dump" method of describing everythign at once unless you can make it flow in a natuar way


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## TakeWalker (Jan 25, 2008)

Poetigress said:
			
		

> One thing that's becoming a major pet peeve of mine when it comes to furry fiction -- be sure to make the characters' species clear as early as you possibly can.  If the reader has to get down to the second page to find out that your character is, say, a husky, they've probably already assumed he's something else by that point (like a wolf or a fox or whatever), and then they have to go back and mentally revise everything they've already envisioned.  To me, that's incredibly jarring and pulls me out of the story.  So describe them however you like, but do it early.



I think I forgot to add the suggestion to put that one-word description in as early as possible, in the character's first action, first dialogue tag, etc. It doesn't have to be the first first, but fairly soon in the story.

And I absolutely agree with your "not a good reason for the character to be anthro" statement.  That's my pet peeve with writing furries in the first place.


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## Poetigress (Jan 25, 2008)

TakeWalker said:
			
		

> And I absolutely agree with your "not a good reason for the character to be anthro" statement.  That's my pet peeve with writing furries in the first place.



Maybe this is just a huge wild assumption on my part (and this might be worthy of its own thread), but I've wondered sometimes if some furry writers might be... I don't know, maybe afraid or reluctant to use human characters?  Or if they're just so completely into being furry that they don't want to use humans?  I don't really understand it.  I've run across a number of stories in the past year that could easily find an audience in the mainstream (i.e., outside the fandom) if the characters were human instead of anthro, and it wouldn't change anything about the story or the character in question.

There are loads of good reasons to use anthro characters and societies, but sometimes it seems like anthro is the "default" setting -- even when the story takes place in a world completely identical to ours in every other way, and the fact that the characters are bipedal animals has no bearing on the events.

Or maybe I'm just becoming more of a snob in that respect as time goes by... >^_^<


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## makmakmob (Jan 25, 2008)

thanks for your advice guys!
Poetigress Your point was very interesting, and certainly something I shall remember, but personally I think my problem is how the setting is not like the real world.
I think I shall try using TakeWalker's advice and try to work the specie more into the rest of the story as opposed to adding it to the description.

You guys really are all geniuses I swear!

Actually, if anyone could tell me something else it would much help, too;
If a I were to have a character in a none real world setting, but with a real world accent (e.g. Russian or Irish maybe) to reinforce personality or character should I actually put it down as such an accent in the description or not have it at all?

I just don't have the guts to start another question thread...


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## TakeWalker (Jan 25, 2008)

Poetigress said:
			
		

> Maybe this is just a huge wild assumption on my part (and this might be worthy of its own thread), but I've wondered sometimes if some furry writers might be... I don't know, maybe afraid or reluctant to use human characters?  Or if they're just so completely into being furry that they don't want to use humans?  I don't really understand it.  I've run across a number of stories in the past year that could easily find an audience in the mainstream (i.e., outside the fandom) if the characters were human instead of anthro, and it wouldn't change anything about the story or the character in question.


My thoughts on the matter (specifically referring to those who refuse to use humans, or perhaps only include human characters in a negative light) is that either they've just discovered furry and are still in the "OMG FURRAY R TEH BESTEST EVAR THINGG!!!" phase, so it's new and exciting and they want to enjoy it, or else they're somehow unstable.  I dunno, just two cents there.



			
				makmakmob said:
			
		

> If a I were to have a character in a none real world setting, but with a real world accent (e.g. Russian or Irish maybe) to reinforce personality or character should I actually put it down as such an accent in the description or not have it at all?



Oh God. If I read this correctly, then let me answer by saying there are few things that cheese me off more than someone having space furries from Planet That Is Not Earth talking with Irish/British/Romanian/etc. accents. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use these accents, either partially or whole, to distinguish between various alien tongues. It's when the accents are described as belonging to a country that _does not exist_ in the context the characters live that I get a serious urge to slay. I'm talking a combination of phonetic *and* geographic rage here; that kind of thing is hard to keep down once it's gotten into full swing.

So, my advice would be to use the accents in the dialogue, but don't describe them. If you have to describe them, then put them in terms of the countries/planets in your story. If your character is from Izonia and their accent sounds British, then write it like a British accent and say it's Izonian.


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## Keaalu (Jan 26, 2008)

TakeWalker said:
			
		

> Oh God. If I read this correctly, then let me answer by saying there are few things that cheese me off more than someone having space furries from Planet That Is Not Earth talking with Irish/British/Romanian/etc. accents. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use these accents, either partially or whole, to distinguish between various alien tongues. It's when the accents are described as belonging to a country that _does not exist_ in the context the characters live that I get a serious urge to slay.


*strongly echoes this sentiment* And be careful of slang words, too. Why, for instance, would an alien use "Jesus!" (or anything derived from it) as an expletive, which I've seen a few times? Swearing in their own deity's name, fair enough, but why would they swear in the name of a religious figure they'd never heard of before?

I had a friend who did that. He'd spend weeks laboriously crafting the species' culture and customs and etc etc, trying to be Piers Anthony, but when he finally came to writing the story... he might as well have set it in modern-day America, with average, whiney emo American teens. The creature's alien-ness had zero bearing on the story, except in their descriptions, and it was quite jarring. Â¬_Â¬


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## PrettyKitty13 (Jan 26, 2008)

Though, i'm not much of a writer.....
How about describing the unique traits of the species of the animal. And using words that a normal person would not speak. More..sophisticated I guess..


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## Kindar (Jan 26, 2008)

Poetigress said:
			
		

> I don't know, maybe afraid or reluctant to use human characters?



most of the time, if I can tell a story with humans, I will. "Corruption" was the only story where I ended up deciding to make the story furry even tho it adds nothing to the story, because I needed to be able to refer and describe the antagonist in one word, and I couldn't do that in a human world


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## TakeWalker (Jan 26, 2008)

Keaalu said:
			
		

> *strongly echoes this sentiment* And be careful of slang words, too. Why, for instance, would an alien use "Jesus!" (or anything derived from it) as an expletive, which I've seen a few times? Swearing in their own deity's name, fair enough, but why would they swear in the name of a religious figure they'd never heard of before?



I wrote a short essay about this once, for the Star Fox fandom. It's amazing how the lack of a single religion in a writer's world will really force them to be creative with their language. Everything from 'geez' to 'hell' is a no-go when you're on an alien world (although words like 'hell' and 'damn' are easily transferred to alien cultures).


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## WolfeByte (Jan 26, 2008)

makmakmob said:
			
		

> ...to reinforce personality or character should I actually put it down as such an accent in the description or not have it at all?



To the contrary of everyone else here, I'd say it's perfectly fine, depending on the story, though there's plenty of ways to describe accents without referring the the specific country of origin (rolling consonants, silenced letters, clipped words or running words together in the sort of eastern Canadian much, eh?, etc.).  

As for all the folks whining about using familiar terms in alien story, well, umm, you're writing in English, so WTF?  Aliens might not describe the rabbit-thing as using an Irish accent, but then again, they wouldn't be using English in the first place.  A certain amount of leeway is necessary to tell the story in a way that makes it clear to the reader, as making up entirely alien languages might be amusing as a device to lend depth (and for future trivia ops or Dictionaries of Kilngon/Elvish) but is time consuming and certainly unnecessary in the long run.  

Myself, I tend to give my characters various odd speech issues when I feel the need, without ever resorting to specific real-world accents or dialects.  

I also tend to write some stories as furry stories and some as human stories, purely on my whim and depending who/where I might be sending it off to for reading.  I don't find furry-for-furry's sake stories to be any more or less authentic than stories where a ridiculous amount of effort has been taken to assure/convince me/the reader that the characters are all as furry as possible and not just human-stand-ins.  

To the contrary a think the needs of the story itself, and the clear, effective telling of that story should take precedence over anything else, and in that context, furries as human stand-ins is perfectly acceptable.  If furries become too inhuman, the chance of a reader relating enough to the character to become immersed in the story becomes much smaller.


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## TakeWalker (Jan 27, 2008)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> As for all the folks whining about using familiar terms in alien story, well, umm, you're writing in English, so WTF?  Aliens might not describe the rabbit-thing as using an Irish accent, but then again, they wouldn't be using English in the first place.  A certain amount of leeway is necessary to tell the story in a way that makes it clear to the reader, as making up entirely alien languages might be amusing as a device to lend depth (and for future trivia ops or Dictionaries of Kilngon/Elvish) but is time consuming and certainly unnecessary in the long run.



To be clear, I don't think I actually mentioned this in my response to the original question: I'm all for using preestablished Earth accents to lend color and flavor to alien dialogue (you're very right that they wouldn't be speaking English in the first place, but as the writer, it is our job to 'translate' the alien speech into something recognizable to the reader; thus, equating alien accents with terrestrial ones is another method of recognizability-making). The problem comes with describing them as such. If my Wangnoodlian dialect is written like Irish, but I _call_ it Irish when there is no Ireland on Wangnoodle, then we have a problem.

EDIT: You know, I think I just mixed up what thread I'm in. o.o Oh well, argument stands.


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## Poetigress (Jan 28, 2008)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> As for all the folks whining about using familiar terms in alien story, well, umm, you're writing in English, so WTF?  Aliens might not describe the rabbit-thing as using an Irish accent, but then again, they wouldn't be using English in the first place.  A certain amount of leeway is necessary to tell the story in a way that makes it clear to the reader, as making up entirely alien languages might be amusing as a device to lend depth (and for future trivia ops or Dictionaries of Kilngon/Elvish) but is time consuming and certainly unnecessary in the long run.



I wouldn't say it's unnecessary.  To me, that depth is very important.  When I'm reading a story, I want to feel immersed in that story's world, and if it's not set in modern-day reality, I do expect to get some sense of culture from the language and figures of speech that the characters use.  That's part of good characterization.  I'm not saying the author has to go to Tolkienesque lengths to develop all of that, but I do appreciate it when they make the effort to at least come up with something original and believable to swear by or use colloquially.  Otherwise, it feels lazy and shallow to me.

Yes, you're telling the story in English and some assumptions have to be made, but for example, there was a story I critiqued using zoomorphic foxes where the narrator used the term "learning the ropes."  That jarred me, because I didn't see any way that term would be relevant to a fox living in a den in a field somewhere.  Instead, in a case like that, the author could just say "figuring out" or whatever, without having to use figurative slang.

I do think making up your own terms can be taken to extremes, especially if that's _all_ you're doing in terms of worldbuilding.  I get tired of authors having to come up with something clever to substitute for simple words and concepts like "day".  Unless it's crucial to the culture, I don't see the need for things like that -- it leads to what I call Land Before Time Syndrome, where rain becomes sky water and leaves become tree stars and the sun is the bright circle and it all builds to the point where you want to scream "They know the term 'circle', but not 'sun'?  Why do animated dinosaurs need geometric concepts?!"  But on the other hand, if a story's characters have a rich and varied religious culture, I don't want to just see "God" used when they're not dealing with anything similar to our concept of God.  It depends on how loaded the term is, I suppose.



> I don't find furry-for-furry's sake stories to be any more or less authentic than stories where a ridiculous amount of effort has been taken to assure/convince me/the reader that the characters are all as furry as possible and not just human-stand-ins.



Well, I'm not talking so much about characters being as furry as possible, as in including species details and sensory differences and things like that, although I do admit I prefer stories like that.  I'm saying, in my opinion, if you could make the characters human without changing any other word of the story -- or, to use another example, if you could make the tiger a wolf and the fox a rabbit without changing anything -- you may not have a terrible story in itself (yes, I agree there are other factors), but certainly I think you might not be using the genre to its fullest potential.  What I like about anthropomorphic stories is that exploration of the other, and to me if all the story is about is some wolf-guy getting in his Toyota and driving to pick up somebody from their shift at Starbucks, and going out to dinner at TGIFriday's, and so on, it feels to me like a wasted opportunity -- either to use human characters and reach a wider audience, or use animal characters to make some kind of symbolic statement, even if it's a vague one.

I know that some use anthro characters to deal with issues of race and nationality, without having to use real human races and risk offending someone before they can get their point across.  To me this aspect is more useful in visual media like comics, but it can also be used in fiction.

And I know that there's some gray area in terms of what would change if the characters were human.  Sometimes the effect of using anthro characters is subtle -- perhaps a fable-like atmosphere that would be lost, or the element of the exotic that adds something to the character.

All in all, I know this is something that didn't bother me as much when I first got into the fandom several years ago -- I recall feeling then that the people moaning about "humans in fur coats" came off as somewhat elitist and nitpicking -- but I guess now that I've read more and more, and the novelty of furry stories has kind of worn off in and of itself, I'm starting to get pickier about this sort of thing.  *shrug*



> If furries become too inhuman, the chance of a reader relating enough to the character to become immersed in the story becomes much smaller.



Well, considering that furries are by definition anthropomorphic -- they're already being given human qualities -- I don't see that as a major concern. I also think that people who are inclined to enjoy anthro fiction are, by nature, willing to empathize with and identify with animal characters, in the same way that most people who are inclined to like sf can identify and empathize with alien characters.


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## themocaw (Jan 28, 2008)

Re: accents:

"Well, ah'll be goldurned!  If it ain't the prettiest lil' filly on this side of tha Rio Grande!  Damn pleased to meetya, lil' lady.  Damn pleased."

"Ach, will ye nae stop tryin' ta get between that lass' bedsheets, ye damn fiend?  Lad keeps his brains 'tween 'is legs."

"Both of you be silent!  This is a rather complicated procedure, and it is not one to be taken lightly.  Either kindly remove yourselves from this place, and take that young lady with you, or remain as quiet and silent as possible until I have finished refusing this explosive!"

"Shoot, didn't mean nothin' by it, Dexter.  Ah'll jest take mahself outside an' see if ah can't get to know this lil' lady a lil' better."

"Ye could try helpin', ye know.  This does happen tae be a nuclear bomb.  If'n it goes off, ye'll be as dead as the rest of us poor bastahds."

"That's why ah should get as much done as ah can, before this nukyoolar bomb goes off an kills us all."

"Silence!  Remove yourselves at once!  I have had enough of you!"

You get the idea.


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## WolfeByte (Jan 29, 2008)

@Poetigriss:  I think I've discovered the basic assumption that we don't actually share:  For me, "furry" is no more a genre in itself than it is a fetish or anything else.  My furry characters are _characters_, not the intrinsic element of a work.   I right fantasy, science fiction and erotica, some or all of which involve furry characters, but I don't, to my knowledge or belief, write _furry_ fiction (and I'm not even sure I'd be willing to speculate exactly how a character type can be construd as genre-defining anyway, but whatever).

@Themocaw:  You're awesome.


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## Poetigress (Jan 29, 2008)

That is a difference.  I do see "anthro" as a genre -- I consider it a subgenre of sf/f.

To me, saying that you write furry characters but not furry fiction is rather like saying you write about aliens but it isn't science fiction, or you write about elves, but don't consider it fantasy.

I mean, to continue that metaphor, I'm trying to imagine a slice-of-life story with an elf or fantasy-race character, or an alien character, where the character is just moving about the 'real' world and doing everything just as a human would, and their odd ancestry has no bearing on anything.  I wouldn't see the point.  If you're going to diverge from the human 'default,' it seems to me like there should be a reason... but I guess in the fandom, furry is the 'default,' so maybe that's what makes it possible.  >^_^<


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## WolfeByte (Jan 30, 2008)

Poetigress said:
			
		

> To me, saying that you write furry characters but not furry fiction is rather like saying you write about aliens but it isn't science fiction, or you write about elves, but don't consider it fantasy.



And from my point of view, the way you look at things is like writing about aliens is 'alien fiction', not sci-fi, and writting about elves is 'elvish fiction' instead of fantasy.  

Why should furries be a genre, when the multitudes of other non-human things that are used in stories aren't genres?  

Character driven fiction is a great and wonderful thing, but when you let a character's traits automatically designate a genre, it's going a bit far...  Like everytime you write with a female MC you're magically writing feminist fiction? I doubt the romance genre likes that implication...  

(I was going to make a comparison about certain character traits and literary fiction, but then I realized some characters could almost automatically make a story literary or not...)


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## makmakmob (Jan 31, 2008)

W00t! I made hot thread! 

Sorry I just have to be a moron every now and then to stop my head exploding.
I find it really fascinating to see what you guys all have to say, and after thinking about this much, I have come to the conclusion that my problem IS that A furry/anthropomorphic character needs a reason to be furry/anthropomorphic before the story woks. I just made the assumption that because this is a 'furry' website one must write 'furry' fiction and nothing more (rather foolishly), but that's not the impression I any longer get. 
thanks for all the advice and stuff!


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## M. LeRenard (Jan 31, 2008)

Seems to me like most people write using anthro characters because they think it's cool.  *shrug*
In my book, though, I chose to use an anthropomorphic character because I wanted to write more from a non-human perspective.  Since my character is a fox, he acts like one; he travels alone, isn't real well-liked by others, has no problem killing, stealing, or lying to get what he needs to get by.  But on the other hand, he has a strong desire for knowledge, which is clearly a human trait.  That desire gets mixed with his animal instincts, so that it becomes just as important as survival for him, and he goes to great lengths, often by dishonest or immoral methods, to make sure he's always on some kind of path of discovery.  
Basically, doing it that way, it makes him an incredibly interesting character to write.  If he was a human, it just wouldn't be the same; I'd probably think of him more as a villain, rather than someone who thinks differently because he's a different species.  In a sense, I can empathize more with him BECAUSE he's a fox.

Other than the whole race issue (which, from my experience, has been done to death in the furry fandom), I can't really think of any other reason to use anthro characters.

I do like how this thread got completely derailed from the original topic.  It's gotten pretty interesting.


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## Poetigress (Feb 1, 2008)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> Character driven fiction is a great and wonderful thing, but when you let a character's traits automatically designate a genre, it's going a bit far...



In some settings, though, a character's nature would designate the genre -- at least to an editor or a publisher.  Fantasy hinges on magic and things that aren't possible in this world.  Insert an elf into a mainstream urban story and you've added an element that doesn't exist in reality, so you've changed the nature of the story.  Most people would classify that story as fantasy, and it would be based on the nature of the character.  I do think having an alien or anthro character changes the nature of the character more than your example of gender.

It does seem that the definition of furry/anthro as a genre, based on discussions I've had elsewhere, does hinge more on the characters involved than on a core element the way sf hinges on science/technology and fantasy hinges on magic.  (This is another reason I consider furry a subgenre of sf/f.  I'm not saying it has enough qualities to be considered a major genre on its own, and anything mixing human and animal qualities is certainly dealing in the realm of the technological or supernatural.)  What makes a story anthro is its exploration of humanized animal characters, so it's going to be impossible to have a furry/anthro story without having something anthropomorphized.

There's always going to be a gray area.  I can understand that you might not feel you're writing furry fiction if the story doesn't deal with the anthro nature of the characters -- to me, that's a similar argument to saying that you can't just throw a spaceship into a story and have sf, and that's valid from that point of view.  I do tend to define the genre of furry/anthro fiction more inclusively and based more on character, but I feel that the best examples of the genre deal with questions of human nature, animal nature, and so on, so that the characters' animal aspects are essential in some way to the story.  Can you deal with those aspects using aliens instead?  Maybe, and maybe very well, but we've evolved alongside animals, we share the planet with them (well, "share" may not be the right word, but you get the idea), and because of that I think anthropomorphizing animals provides us with different elements psychologically and symbolically than using extraterrestrials or something completely imaginary.


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## WolfeByte (Feb 1, 2008)

But why do we need a 'furry' genre, even a 'furry' sub-genre?  We don't - as far as I know - have an 'aliens' genre for sci-fi that focuses on how alien characters are alien (and longcat is long?) so why would we need a 'furry' genre, or need to pick and choose which stories involving anthropomorphic animals are "the best examples of the genre"?  

And does classification of a story as 'furry' somehow exempt it from holding to the standards other non-furry sci-fi or fantasy stories are held? Or stories in general, for that matter? (As my own opinion is if your story is good, and your characters are good, _what _they actually are is practically irrelevant.  _Who _they are is interesting, so the fact that they're walking-talking toasters isn't that important.)

"Well, it's okay that my story hasn't got any plot worth mentioning, because see how _furry _all the characters are?"  

"Ah, _yes_, it's _furry _fiction, isn't it?"  

"Yes, it _is_, it doesn't need a plot to carry it, as it's intrinsic furry elements are merit enough!"  

"Yes, yes, quite right..."  

I don't know, I'm not convinced it even rates acknowledgement outside of a few authors whimsical fancy to be 'exclusive' or whatnot, but I'll agree to disagree for certain.

Edit:
"Can you deal with those aspects using aliens instead? Maybe, and maybe very well, but we've evolved alongside animals, we share the planet with them (well, "share" may not be the right word, but you get the idea), and because of that I think anthropomorphizing animals provides us with different elements psychologically and symbolically than using extraterrestrials or something completely imaginary."

Better yet, I could probably do a fair job of it using just a human (as humans ARE animals).  Other authors have done just that in the past (See:  Marvel Comics "Wolverine" and the original Tarzan - and others -, which was very obviously about exploring that idea of what sperates us from the animals, and how in the right circumstances our civilization is a fairly flimsy facade...), with no need for anthropomorphics or a sub-genre.


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## Poetigress (Feb 1, 2008)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> But why do we need a 'furry' genre, even a 'furry' sub-genre?



I don't know if a genre could be argued as something "needed", but to my mind, in a way we already have it, just not in fiction as such.  I mean, there's already a fandom made up of people who like stuff with anthro animals in it, which to me kind of creates a genre-like construct by itself.  And there are magazines specializing in publishing fiction with anthropomorphic elements.  They've obviously come up with some kind of definition of what they're looking for.



> And does classification of a story as 'furry' somehow exempt it from holding to the standards other non-furry sci-fi or fantasy stories are held?



Absolutely not, and I would never argue that it should.  There's no genre I'm aware of that intrinsically carries any claim about the quality of the material, just the content/themes of it.  One can write mystery or romance well or poorly or anything in between.


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## Poetigress (Feb 1, 2008)

WolfeByte said:
			
		

> Better yet, I could probably do a fair job of it using just a human (as humans ARE animals).  Other authors have done just that in the past (See:  Marvel Comics "Wolverine" and the original Tarzan - and others -, which was very obviously about exploring that idea of what sperates us from the animals, and how in the right circumstances our civilization is a fairly flimsy facade...), with no need for anthropomorphics or a sub-genre.



So a genre has to answer questions or deal with issues that _no other genre _can deal with, in order to justify its existence?  I wasn't trying to say that furry fiction was the _only_ way to explore that idea, just that that's an idea that can be explored with it. 

I certainly think we're going to have to agree to disagree here.  I'm never going to be convinced that furry doesn't/shouldn't exist as a subgenre, it doesn't sound as if you'll ever be convinced it does or should, and there's not a great deal of interesting variety of opinion when only one other person is getting in on the discussion anyway.  *shrug*


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## M. LeRenard (Feb 1, 2008)

Poetigress said:
			
		

> So a genre has to answer questions or deal with issues that _no other genre _can deal with, in order to justify its existence?



Well... at the very least, it has to have some meaningful aspect that differentiates it from other genres, right?
That said, the fact is, 'furry' writing (what you find online and in magazines, from time to time) encompasses pretty much every genre imaginable, so I don't know if you really could classify it by itself as its own genre.  I'd go more for sub-genre, but to me that doesn't really mean anything.  You're not going to walk into a bookstore and see a section for "Fantasy/Elves" or "Sci-Fi/Varied Aquatic Alien Species", so I doubt there'd be a point in saying that such and such work is "Fantasy/Furry" or what have you.
I guess what I'm saying is that you COULD classify furry as a genre, but you don't really need to.  It wouldn't serve much purpose; at least, not much more than stating on the book jacket that the book contains furry characters, hein?
Personally, I'd rather my books not be classified as 'furry'.  There is a stigma attached to that word these days....


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## Digitalpotato (Feb 6, 2008)

There's a difference between describing a character....




> In his anthro form, Doug stood a lot taller, almost seven feet, and looked even larger with new muscles with both draconic and human strength. The bangle he always wore hung form his ear fin, a good indication of why he never pierced his ear. Unlike himself as a full dragon, he had no webbing under his arms, but his hands were still webbed fully.



...and at least trying to give an image, or just confusing people. This description assumes you know what doug looks like in his full-dragon form.




> Scales replaced his skin, bronze in some and turquoise in others. It still was Doug alright, albeit taller and a lot more fit, although still not quite to the level of one suggesting "fit". No webbing was present by his arms, but the webbing in his hands was present, showing the bronze and turquoise. A newly grown tail displayed a spiky frill, as well as his neck. He smiled with his muzzle, displaying a row of new spiky semi-specialized teeth, wings folded neatly behind his back.



There is no saying of the word "Dragon" in there, or even that he was in his anthro form, the only indication showing that It was still Doug. But in fact that could even be applied to him in full-dragon form through interpretation...Webbing wtf what's that there does he have webbing on his arms as a human?  If you don't know what he looks like as a dragon or that he even IS a dragon and can become anthropomorphic if he wants, you may get an odd image, although the hint of "scales" and wings can make you think he's a dragon, as well as the tail that he's a dragon.  

If you're describing someone who is familiar with this type of character then saying they're a wolf/reptile/whatever can give them a clear enough image on where to start imagining that character in their mind. Describe what makes them unique, what stands out when you first look at them. "Hmm, his frill is a mottled brown that's unusual for a lizardfolk."


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## makmakmob (Mar 15, 2008)

Is there actually any requirement at all that I call a 'furry' character a 'fox' or a 'wolf' or 'lizard'.
I mean, they may still be anthropomorphic in that respect but what if they don't actually look just like a humanized speicies so to speak, but somewhat animal like all the same. The real reason I ask this is because I'm thinking more in the sci fi genre and wondering if perhaps I should refer to them within their own culture. (I doubt a race would call themselves 'the foxes', as they may not even know what the hell a fox is)


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## M. LeRenard (Mar 15, 2008)

> The real reason I ask this is because I'm thinking more in the sci fi genre and wondering if perhaps I should refer to them within their own culture.


Of course.  It's probably more interesting that way.  Just, you know... if they're supposed to look like such and such animal, you'll want to make that clear somehow, too.  Because otherwise the reader will just picture whatever and call it good.  But I doubt I needed to say that.


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## Lanceleoghauni (Apr 7, 2008)

Try gritty details, since you're doing war there should be alot of that already anyways right? detail the effects the battles are having, while at the same time using it as an excuse to explain the furs physiology.


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## lobosabio (Apr 7, 2008)

You could try description through details, like I tend to do.  That is, instead of describing the character all at once, let the character come out through the details about them.


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## Roose Hurro (May 2, 2008)

*I went and dug up an old RP post of mine, which I've included, below.  Perhaps it could serve as an example for everyone to pick apart... divy up its elements, to see its weaknesses and strengths and other aspects, in review.  At the very least, it may help provide answers to some of the questions already posed, or open up other questions for discussion.  Please, dive in and enjoy...*


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Morning's first light just brushed the tallest treetop, belonging to a  tree rooted in an isolated place, about a mile and a half away from the village proper, near the river, and towards where this morning's sun rose... towards the near-distant hills.  Yes, this tree was always the first to feel the sun's warmth and light on its topmost leaves, but it was not alone in these feelings.  Built within its branches... with such craft, it appeared it had grown with the tree... a treehouse, home of one Essix Furlo... for the last two years, four months and seven days.  Now, touched by the sunlight and heat of morning... the light slowly crawling down, till it peeked into the windows on the eastern side...

... and poked Essix in the eyes, as he slept.

A hurred groan joined the morning's birdsong, filtering through the slightly open window.  Awkward paws covered his face, then his tail flicked over his head, blocking the light from his eyes...

...  "All rright... all rright... I'm up...." mumbled an accented voice, from under all the fur and fingers, as Essix curled up tighter, wanting just a few more minutes of sleep.  No, he was not a morning person.  But... he was not lazy, either.  After all, he'd built his home so his bedroom window faced the rising sun, just so first light would strike his face every morning... a very reliable alarm clock.

However, he'd been up a bit late last night, unable to settle.  Today was the day the caravan arrived... the day all his work would come full circle, bringing with it the Message he'd waited so long to receive... and the Gesture, along with it.  This meant so much to his future plans... his dreams.  If she... if she accepted, after all this time waiting... yes... he would have a mate, and a family to come.  He'd been so nervous, last night... this was so important... and yet, under the nervousness, an excitement... anticipation, making his heart beat faster, his blood and heat, rushed in a measured pulse throughout his body, warming him from head to toes.

So... his curled up state, snuggled atop soft warm pillows of cotton and down... had to end.  Breakfast needed to be made, and chores done.  If he intended to take a trip into town, he needed to take stock, note what supplies he would need, if any.  And... ohh, yes!... use this arranged day off to see to his business, so he would be prepared for the morrow.  He would have much to do, to catch up with the loss of a day, at this time of the week... but, with the caravan coming, he needed the time to haggle with the merchants over needed material.  Part of his taking stock.  Yes, not only his Message and Gesture would be arriving, today!

Ohh, so much to do, and not enough time!

Essix huffed from under the cover of his large, bushy tail... squirmed... and huddled tighter, with a shiver... then uncurled, and stretched languidly at first, in the sunshine's warm rays, as morning filled his bedroom with light, scent and sound.  Then, as his stretch grew in energy and vitality... as his tail started flicking rapidly, his yawn wide and toothsome, he put more verve into his movements... hopped out of bed, and started exercising, as was his normal routine.  Under his fur, he kept himself lean and muscular.  For his size... all four and a half feet and sixty seven pounds of it... his strength was never in doubt, nor was the skill of his handpaws.  Despite his non-human status, there probably wasn't a place in the village that hadn't felt his touch, from patching roofs to fixing plows... to mending many other broken or worn out things... even the horses, donkeys... and even the camels... had probably, at one time or another, received a grooming by his handpaws....

Really, Essix served as the village's all-around fix it handyperson... even made things that were needed, if there was no other way to get them in time.  To Essix, it didn't matter who the customer was... everyone got equal treatment, human or non-human, whatever their need.  Even those humans who didn't care for non-humans... Essix always strived to gain trust, to alway provide value to those who paid for his services.  And, sometimes... throwing in the occasional freebie.  Especially for the children.

Essix finished his morning exercises, slipped from bedroom nest to kitchen... grabbed a towel, before heading outside to the river, for his morning water ritual... well, actually, more of a simple face splashing, cold water used to take the last fragments of sleep away...

... so, the towel ended up damp, while his face ended up looking like that of a drowned rat, despite his horns... and the fact he looked nothing like a rat, although he did smell like a wet squirrel now, in some ways.  Hmm....

The damp towel ended up its present usefulness polishing his horns, as he walked slowly back to his tree... hung the towel around his neck, and climbed back up to his home.  Yes, he had to return the towel to its rack, to dry.  Otherwise, it would have been a lot simpler and easier to just slide air, from home to river and back... but, fantastic as his teleporting ability was, it had its limits.  Most of the time, he had to live like a Varrow, as if he didn't have the Arsfar talent for sliding air to other places.  All part of living in a world of mixed species, having to adapt to differing cultural practices and ways of doing business... all part of settling down, after a time of wandering.

Essix hung the towel back on its rack, and went about fixing breakfast... dried fish, some fresh fruit (an apple, and two nearly overripe pears), a cup of shelled nuts from the bin... and, when the kettle whistled, a mug of simple black tea.

Afterwards, Essix went about cleaning and organizing his home, made sure everything was in its proper place... neat and tidy.  Then he popped outside again, went out into the nearby clearing, and rolled around in the grass... layed on his back, his body splayed without shame to the sun's warmth, as he chewed on a grass stem.  Ahhh, yes!... a moment to relax, to think, to enjoy being alive... to smell the grass and trees growing, to hear the birds call out their poetry, to see the sky and feel the sun and wind and...

... and to know he had business to conduct... things to do in the village, things... hmm... yes, he still felt nervous, excited by what would come, if all went well.  He scratched at his belly, and thought of her... of Sharral... of their childhood, together, and all they meant to each other.  All he needed was her Message and her Gesture of Intent... then, he could respond in kind, and invite her into his life... as his mate.  Ohh, how he looked forward to the day they would be together again!

Essix rolled over and onto all fours, stretched again in the sunshine, then groomed himself.  When he finished, back up the tree and into his home he went again... even without the towel, this time, he felt the need for some added exercise, to combat his nerves.  He moved through his home, into his bedroom, and dressed up in his traveling robes... a simple cloak meant to cover his exposed maleness from offended human eyes.  Essix hated wearing it, even though he had a whole trunkfull of spares, just in case he had to throw this one away in an emergency... yes, he could not understand why humans had this problem.  After all, he was covered in fur... what else did he need but that?  And it made him uncomfortable, having his body wrapped in something so close... pressing his fur down, and making him feel caged.  Even though this simple covering of rust-dyed cotton and wool wouldn't keep him from sliding air, he... he really didn't like the feeling it gave him, the feeling of restriction.  It was unnatural, for an Arsfar to be clothed!  But... Essix had learned to adapt to the discomfort... and such covering did keep the occasional rainstorm from soaking his fur... yes, he _really_ hated getting his tail wet.

Groomed and dressed, fed... and with his home tidied... he felt ready for his trip to the village.........

About a mile and a half later, Essix entered the village, and he felt... felt something out of place... something wrong.  As he walked through the village to his small shop, he sent out a cast, all about...

... and found himself... disturbed by what came back, by what his sensative ears heard whispered....


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## Nequ (May 19, 2008)

makmakmob said:


> Is there actually any requirement at all that I call a 'furry' character a 'fox' or a 'wolf' or 'lizard'.
> I mean, they may still be anthropomorphic in that respect but what if they don't actually look just like a humanized speicies so to speak, but somewhat animal like all the same. The real reason I ask this is because I'm thinking more in the sci fi genre and wondering if perhaps I should refer to them within their own culture. (I doubt a race would call themselves 'the foxes', as they may not even know what the hell a fox is)


I just use genus/breed as a standard identifier, the same way I would "redhead" or "Frenchman". Shove a few more details somewhere in the story, and let the read figure out the rest by himself. I call this the Gaiman method; I got through half of Anansi Boys before I realized the main cast was all Black.


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## Aryeonos (May 20, 2008)

If some one has already said what I'm about to, tough, I didn't bother reading what they had to say cause I'M LAZY! 

Go about describleing the furry like you would a real person, lots'o'detail. Like this, "Bob Marly looked down at his friends grey brown hands for a breif second, the shinny non rectactile claws clacked against the table each time he grabbed for his coffee. Bob looked up to see his friends smooth mastif muzzle and his sleepy and depressing yellow brown eyes, his ears flopped each time he moved his head a little, and he was always grabbing for his coffee when he had nothing to say. Bob leaned back in his chair, while his friend slumped down onto the table with crossed arms, lightly rubbing at his short smooth fur then slumping his narrow head down onto his arms." Blah blah blah, that was hacked out but you get the point, just describe the person as your character notices him, drawing details into actions, just like you dont see a full person and all there details when you see them from the front for a brief moment.


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## CombatRaccoon (May 29, 2008)

If I wrote a story about anthros, I wouldn't catagorize them as species A or species B or so on... 

I would just take time to describe their markings and appearance, and identify them by name or it, him or her... unless within context it got confusing because there were multiple unidentified furries in a scene. That might prove to be tricky.


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