# Is Furry art a failure?



## Drayx (Apr 24, 2017)

OK, I'm going to radical my stance in order to make the topic more spicy, so no hard feelings. I really want to know your thoughts on the matter, so feel free to comment, agree or contradict.  

I found myself at a journey to improve my art and envision the ideas I want to give shape to. When I inspect the art of FA, or other similar sites, I start to think that we made art cheap, mindless and boring. 
Take a look at the most popular artists on FA - most of them have a good grip of digital art, but only in the technical aspect of the craft. Their ideas are limited to icons and nudity (if not simple porn), there is nothing awe-inspiring out there. No story behind any picture - it doesn't make you think of anything. no further thought than flashy and "nice to behold", no radical ideas, nothing that relates to real life or life-struggles. It is meaningless. Special artists who use more traditional or less appealing style have almost zero followers and encouragement. 

Why is that? - The most common answer would be - sex. Sex is selling, people want sex. But there is something more - Narcissism and avatarism: the love of only yourself or your representative, in our case - Your fursona. There is no need for meaningful art if the only thing you care about is to see your character. 

So what? What is it if people just want to see naked appealing characters without any deep thoughts? Why should we even talk about it? Let's be free and liberal and let everybody express themselves the way they want!

I wish it was true, that this approach could benefit all. But if your only chance to get recognition as a young artist is to draw naked characters fucking each other in the most graphic way - you're gonna do it sooner or later. The reason artists upload art - is to get feedback and it is hard not to be tempted. I review an artist after an artist, and almost all of them have graphic pics, and those pics are the keys to success. Even underage artists are using it a plenty. When I was 16 or 17 I never dreamed of porn-pictures, I wanted to explore my worlds and my ideas. During the last years I  experimented with more ecchi-art - and it always got 5 time more feedback. So yeah, FA warped my art to a lousy collection of porn for a long period.

So furry art is a failure to me. It has so much potential - but it falls short. Maybe it is because my inspiration comes from Disney movies, Redwall, Blacksad, Watership Down. Maybe it's because I see conceptual, digital, traditional artists that have a universe full of imagination and life while furr-artists draw the same thing over and over again. And maybe because it just sucks.


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## Protoshy (Apr 24, 2017)

You definitely bring up fair points, but FurAffinity isn't where most people go to view awe-inspiring art. It really is not the right platform. Given that the site has porn on it, I am inclined to believe that many people who don't enjoy that content stay away from it. Not to mention, art is subjective, we tend to look at something and rate it based on what it does for us, or how much it stimulates us. This stimulation can be sexual or awe-inspiring (or any other number of things) but we tend to ignore the artists talent because it stimulates us in the wrong manner.


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## Drayx (Apr 25, 2017)

Protoshy said:


> You definitely bring up fair points, but FurAffinity isn't where most people go to view awe-inspiring art. It really is not the right platform. Given that the site has porn on it, I am inclined to believe that many people who don't enjoy that content stay away from it. Not to mention, art is subjective, we tend to look at something and rate it based on what it does for us, or how much it stimulates us. This stimulation can be sexual or awe-inspiring (or any other number of things) but we tend to ignore the artists talent because it stimulates us in the wrong manner.



I agree that art is subjective - every element in human society is subjective and not a scientific fact - culture, religion, ideology, society and economy, if you want you can end every such discussion with "it's subjective" . However, I don't ask if that is good or bad - I ask where does it lead us, what the implications are.

I go to FA because it is the largest platform out there. The fact that the site includes porn - does not mean that there are no good artists out there, most are just ignored.  
I'm not sure what "stimulates us in the wrong manner means"... but what we actually do is limit art into a very restricting style and theme - and that's not rewarding for both the creators and the viewers in the long run.


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## Pipistrele (Apr 25, 2017)

Well, 50/50. I can agree in sense that FA and similar sites are oversaturated with technically-proficient-yet-uninspired pron, mainly because of huge "art whore"/"art slave" market out there, and it's a bit hard to break out on FA without selling yourself out in process. On the other, there are still many fantastic character designers and story creators in anthro/furry "genre" who are either widely respectable inside and outside the fandom ( TealfulEyes or Shenanimation ), or don't try/need to get that rep because they're working in professional fields anyway ( JKN for example ). I'll say it works same as music industry or YouTube channels - you can gain an easy but somewhat fragile popularity/income on selling out yiffy commissions with minimal effort, but if you're willing to risk a bit and go extra mile with effort, you can eventually gather a relatively small, yet extremely loyal fanbase around yourself to sell your artwork for bigger price, or even become a legitimate professional (Tealful got to work with Blizzard and Games Workshop, of all things - can you say that about Wolfy-Nail or Blotch duo, the ever-present "superstars" of community?)


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## PlusThirtyOne (Apr 25, 2017)

You can make the EXACT same argument for manga or otherwise weeb/otaku art. Or hell, ANY art for that matter. Photography on the whole for instance! There's a whole industry built around photographed sex! i don't see the same kind of enthusiasm around floral still-life photography! A large percentage of art is sexy stuff with no regard to story, character, whatever. Bewbs for the sake of bewbs. A literal depiction of sex with no strings attached. People create and consume art for MANY different reasons, whether for sex appeal or for...well...non-sex-appeal. There are _SO many_ reasons people like the art they do but i like to think that sex isn't the only reason. Of course sex sells and i don't think there's anything wrong with that. To some artists it may feel that basic sexy pinups _devalues_ their art but i strongly argue that for those who put effort into their characters, it actually _ADDS_ value to "real art" when stacked against well written stories, developed characters with personality, hopes, dreams, emotion, etc. (some might argue "actual effort"). You can't equate pinup girls to well written fiction; or real people for that matter.

Mindless, soulless sex may sell in high volume and _appear_ to have more _market value_ but in the end it's missing _social value; _the sort of value and personality "real" art has. Stand-alone character pinups often lack substance or personality unless they're part of some larger fictional universe; the kind of world building in fiction that only well written stories and characters can provide. Like comparing a cheesy porn with terrible "acting" versus a well written, acted, funded, produced, directed romance movie. (_with or without_ some tits thrown in) For every Yin, there is Yang. Porn and pinups are the necessary antithesis to everything else. Just keep in mind that nobody watches porn _and nothing else_. The supply and demand for sex DOES NOT devalue abstinence* or chastity*! (for lack of a better non-existent words...)

Sex fulfills a base need for human beings, even if it's just masturbatory (both literally and figuratively) but it's no replacement for nuanced ART. it will ALWAYS dominate because that's how we're all wired.


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## Yarik (Apr 25, 2017)

I thought this topic would be interesting but it basically turned into another discussion/complaint that sex sells.
You said it. Right there. This isn't something that is exclusive to furry porn or furries in general. The only reason why the most popular artists on deviantArt draw something else than porn is because porn is banned on dA.

We could complain all day that some super uninspiring pop songs get millions of views on YouTube while inspired young musicians with original ideas remain undiscovered by most. The thing is: If it'd be the other way around (popular rock&metal, unpopular pop) you'd have pop fans saying the same thing. If only stories and ideas would matter we'd now sit here and complain about the lack of quality porn and how we get not the same massive attention by drawing it. "Why does nobody just want some fun? Everything needs a deeper, tragic, depressive meaning nowadays to be popular, I-hate-this."
It's the same situation. In the end it boils down to the fact that some things are popular among the majority of people. This means that when you do content for that audience you have more potential people that may notice you. Attention/Fanbase/whatever grows faster than for any other content. Nobody forces you to grow fast though.
I could complain all day that hourglass bodyshapes are popular because I love diversity in character design and get tired of seeing the same body everywhere. I recently started to desig a few of my own characters. I could have made them hourglass bodies so they are easily popular subjects for pin ups but I decided to just.... draw what I like?
If you rely on commissions for money you need to go with the market, obviously. Find a balance.

Overall: Sex sells and furries are no more perverted or "mindless" in their interests than any other community. I'd atcually argue they are perhaps the most creative one. Everyone comes up with something - even if it's just their fursona as a 1:1 image of them. It's still more creative than most conent-consumers out there and I've seen a TON of stories around FA, but you won't find those in the popular artists galleries.


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## Drayx (Apr 25, 2017)

Pipistrele said:


> Well, 50/50. I can agree in sense that FA and similar sites are oversaturated with technically-proficient-yet-uninspired pron, mainly because of huge "art whore"/"art slave" market out there, and it's a bit hard to break out on FA without selling yourself out in process. On the other, there are still many fantastic character designers and story creators in anthro/furry "genre" who are either widely respectable inside and outside the fandom ( TealfulEyes or Shenanimation ), or don't try/need to get that rep because they're working in professional fields anyway ( JKN for example ). I'll say it works same as music industry or YouTube channels - you can gain an easy but somewhat fragile popularity/income on selling out yiffy commissions with minimal effort, but if you're willing to risk a bit and go extra mile with effort, you can eventually gather a relatively small, yet extremely loyal fanbase around yourself to sell your artwork for bigger price, or even become a legitimate professional (Tealful got to work with Blizzard and Games Workshop, of all things - can you say that about Wolfy-Nail or Blotch duo, the ever-present "superstars" of community?)



I tend to think that this is more like 99/1...
The art slave/ whore is a sad tale... especially when it becomes the main way for both low-rate and high-rate artists to get recognition or money. Then it is really easy to drift away and lose any spec of originality.  

Thanks for sharing some interesting names - just to argue that there are alternatives. Sadly I sense that FA platform and the community is far from rewarding - unless you're super-talented. This JKN has, like what? 500 views for almost 150 pics? That's absurd, professional or no professional. So, is the choice between being a cheap famous pop-artist or an obscure elaborate and deep creator?


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## Drayx (Apr 25, 2017)

PlusThirtyOne said:


> You can make the EXACT same argument for manga or otherwise weeb/otaku art. Or hell, ANY art for that matter. Photography on the whole for instance! There's a whole industry built around photographed sex! i don't see the same kind of enthusiasm around floral still-life photography! A large percentage of art is sexy stuff with no regard to story, character, whatever. Bewbs for the sake of bewbs. A literal depiction of sex with no strings attached. People create and consume art for MANY different reasons, whether for sex appeal or for...well...non-sex-appeal. There are _SO many_ reasons people like the art they do but i like to think that sex isn't the only reason. Of course sex sells and i don't think there's anything wrong with that. To some artists it may feel that basic sexy pinups _devalues_ their art but i strongly argue that for those who put effort into their characters, it actually _ADDS_ value to "real art" when stacked against well written stories, developed characters with personality, hopes, dreams, emotion, etc. (some might argue "actual effort"). You can't equate pinup girls to well written fiction; or real people for that matter.
> 
> Mindless, soulless sex may sell in high volume and _appear_ to have more _market value_ but in the end it's missing _social value; _the sort of value and personality "real" art has. Stand-alone character pinups often lack substance or personality unless they're part of some larger fictional universe; the kind of world building in fiction that only well written stories and characters can provide. Like comparing a cheesy porn with terrible "acting" versus a well written, acted, funded, produced, directed romance movie. (_with or without_ some tits thrown in) For every Yin, there is Yang. Porn and pinups are the necessary antithesis to everything else. Just keep in mind that nobody watches porn _and nothing else_. The supply and demand for sex DOES NOT devalue abstinence* or chastity*! (for lack of a better non-existent words...)
> 
> Sex fulfills a base need for human beings, even if it's just masturbatory (both literally and figuratively) but it's no replacement for nuanced ART. it will ALWAYS dominate because that's how we're all wired.



I mostly agree. My only question is - why do we consider ourselves at the exact same level of porn? or the lowest pop-art? 
I'm agitated that not enough appreciation is given to other fields of art within the forum and the site. As of now - if you want to be the most favorable member in the forum you should ask all the other artists to draw your characters without any real communication or just spread for free the most uninspiring quick sketches to get a lot of likes.


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## PlusThirtyOne (Apr 25, 2017)

Drayx said:


> I mostly agree. My only question is - why do we consider ourselves at the exact same level of porn? or the lowest pop-art?


_Do_ we consider ourselves lesser?? -i don't think we do.
Just because a sexual market exists, that shouldn't devalue "real art". i think anthro-fied characters and the world they live in have a lot more potential for creativity; both written and visually. That creativity and customization has a lot of allure that draws all kinds of imaginative scenarios. Since sex (as a need) is so base, why wouldn't it be present? Of course, i agree completely that attention should be given to "real art" but what i'm saying is that there's NO WAY you (in general) are never going to win that fight because sex is so prominent. -And easily accessible! Sex is in _everything_ and the furry fandom is way more open about it. it's not just popular, it's easily accessible. Anyone can write a sexual fantasy story, anyone can conjure up ideas of their unique "fursona" and draw it themselves or commission an artist to render that fantasy. The anthro world is highly customizable. That can be seen as either a good thing or a bad thing.

it's like we're complaining that there are other people are prettier than us. Just like the real world, if you have the skills to pay the bills, you can always whore yourself out for the instant gratification of others. One differences being that in the world of fiction isn't nearly as dangerous. Another is that the fictional world is more customizable. Just as there are real life attractive people who get attention just for their looks, there are artists who have skill to render fantasies. Both attract attention because of their sex appeal. Whether or not they have _personalit_y or _substance_ however is (unfortunately) and afterthought but just the same, you can appeal to those base need customers all you like but there's no substitution for "real art/people" with substance.

Just like the real world social marketplace, the world is full of pretty faces, perky tits and washboard abs all competing for attention.
You can either complain about it, participate or just take in the view. it sounds like we both do all three. :V


in short, i don't think the furry fandom is any different from aaaaaany other fandom. Even Trekkies have their freaky Klingon orgies. Motorheads have sexy pinup magazines with pinup girls on motorcycles and sports cards. Sports fans have sexy cheerleaders.




Drayx said:


> As of now - if you want to be the most favorable member in the *forum*...


You must be referring to the art trades/sales subforum because the vast majority of regulars on the discussion side of the forum are against vapid pornography and yiffy stuff. -Unless by "forum" you're referring to the fandom as a whole. But still i would argue that the majority of furries are against the vapidly sexual side of the fandom. They just don't comment or praise as loudly as the porny side does.

Again, just look at the traffic of sites like PornHub versus other popular non-pornographic sites. Just because PornHub gets so much traffic and revenue, that doesn't mean that those users surf the site _exclusively_. PornHub isn't taking clicks, revenue and attention _away_ from other sites. Just as within the furry community, consumers of adult content are just as likely to partake in the non-sexual side. -in fact, given the prominence, i would argue they're MORE likely to participate in the fandom elsewhere as well.



Drayx said:


> This JKN has, like what? 500 views for almost 150 pics? That's absurd, professional or no professional.



Another thing to consider is that popular artists have LARGE customer and fan bases because they put out lots of attractive art. There's a lot of interaction between those popular artists and their fans and paying customers. Popular artists put out a lot of artwork so they cast a larger net onto the front page. Their art nabs a lot of favorites that spread to other's profile and (given the artists' permission) their art gets reposted to image sites like e621. There's a high demand for pron so the attention builds exponentially.
That popularity shouldn't detract or devalue other artists' work. it's simply a matter of supply and demand.


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## Pipistrele (Apr 25, 2017)

Drayx said:


> I tend to think that this is more like 99/1...
> The art slave/ whore is a sad tale... especially when it becomes the main way for both low-rate and high-rate artists to get recognition or money. Then it is really easy to drift away and lose any spec of originality.
> 
> Thanks for sharing some interesting names - just to argue that there are alternatives. Sadly I sense that FA platform and the community is far from rewarding - unless you're super-talented. This JKN has, like what? 500 views for almost 150 pics? That's absurd, professional or no professional. So, is the choice between being a cheap famous pop-artist or an obscure elaborate and deep creator?


Welp, by professional I mean the one who has a privelege of working with legit customers and companies, rather than relatively niche circle of pron-obsessed fandom members, and therefore doesn't have to reach out for popularity in order to earn some money. For people like JKN, FurAffinity is more or less "one of several platforms to spread artwork out or just store it for folks to see", rather than some kind of "competitive market".

The primary question from my understanding, though, is "Can you be a legitimate and respectable artist in boundaries of furry community", and first answer that comes to my mind is "Why would you want to in the first place?" FurAffinity happens to be mainly a platform for furry-oriented artwork (not just "anthro" artwork, but the kind of artwork that caters to particular tastes of this community, smut included), and to cater successfully, you have to compromise your creativity, be it furry fandom, trekkie art exhibition, or your local lolicon club - naturally, if you're a legitimately creative artist and designer (or aspire to be one), it's a bit illogical to work within boundaries and tastes of any particular community c:

Considering all above, here are some answers to the question in the title. Anthro art isn't dead, it's just that most of the decent anthro artists tend to focus on less fandom-oriented and more "general" platforms like Tumblr, DeviantArt or Behance, focusing more on "art" than, well, "anthro". The ones you have on FA are those who more often than not have more popular userpages on other sites (Shenanimation barely gets 40+ favs for a pic on FA, yet gathers around 800 notes for every submission on Tumblr). "Furry" artwork (i.e. "made for furries") is hardly a high art because fandom itself isn't a good foundament for high art to begin with, at least not yet.


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## Zeitzbach (Apr 27, 2017)

Furaffinity is a marketplace. Marketplace is where you make stuffs that sell.

To bring up another point why people don't start getting creative after they have enough exposure, drawing is like making a gaming channel/streaming. If you are popular for playing a certain game, you can only play that game or people will drop you because you no longer play the content they are watching you for. To many artists, they are not popular for what their skill and creativity but popular because they happen to draw something that is already popular. 

This is why I will always comment that building a fanbase using Fanart and NSFW is a bad moves in the long run because while it is good for short-term popularity and monetary goal, you kill your future unless you can pick up some new 15/10 wowza project that somehow clicks with everyone. Even pro artists like KNKL will mention how his most popular are stuffs like D.VA from Overwatch in his youtube videos and no matter how much he tries to sugar coat it, it's obvious that it's the most popular because it's Overwatch and that's the major explanation while his other insane pieces never get anywhere near as much like and exposure even with such a large fanbase while also looking way better.

We live in a world and economic state where marketing governs everything we do and see. Nice arts doesn't sell without exposure. Exposure doesn't happen without people watching. People won't watch if the piece doesn't attract them and if the piece doesn't attract them, no one will even notice the piece exists due to lack of exposure. In such a state, don't expect artistic creativity to thrive unless you can escape the chains of monetary lock.


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## Drayx (Apr 27, 2017)

Shane McNair said:


> I completely understand where you're coming from, and I agree. I've seen many artists on FA who are very talented and who have lots of potential, and who have styles that I really like, but often they invariably squander that creative ability on mindless, hedonistic debauchery. I've always found this to be aggravating and highly disappointing, and it's a big part of why furries tend to get a bad reception from the rest of the internet. Frankly, it pisses me off that there are so many furry artists out there with such great talent, which I can only envy, and then they go and waste it on making cheap, gratuitous smut. And there's also art which isn't necessarily pornographic, but which is just plain vapid and atrocious in some way. A lot of fetish art falls into this category. To me, art is something that should be constructive; something that should strive to convey depth, emotion, meaning, beauty, wonder, a certain mood or aesthetic, and maybe also be exciting or thought-provoking. It is something that should reflect higher ideals. It is something that should wow you and fill you with awe, or at least be tasteful and nice to look at without assaulting your sensibilities. But I think there's also a bigger picture too, and to be fair, this state of affairs can't be blamed entirely on the fandom itself. We live, today, in what is unfortunately a decadent culture, and I think that the over-sexualization and depravity that plagues the furry fandom is largely symptomatic of the degradation of western culture as a whole, which in lots of cases has devolved to become plastic, meaningless, self-gratifying, vulgar, and ugly. I think that this video explains my thoughts fairly well:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad that you express your thoughts about this issues and showed some contra-references! 
Personally, I don't think that nude-porn-fetish are enemies of art - you can also do great things with them - if you use your head. However, I don't like the approach which reduce art to any popular themes alone, that takes away the exact things you mentioned - and makes it, well, boring. I don't blame the community alone for this. I know we are part of a bigger internet-culture, and it is important to understand the exact reasons for that - but it is also crucial to ask - is this the only option that we have? Are those creators and artists out there have a rewarding, challenging and encouraging frame to work with?  As of now - I'm not sure...


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## Drayx (Apr 27, 2017)

Zeitzbach said:


> Furaffinity is a marketplace. Marketplace is where you make stuffs that sell.
> 
> To bring up another point why people don't start getting creative after they have enough exposure, drawing is like making a gaming channel/streaming. If you are popular for playing a certain game, you can only play that game or people will drop you because you no longer play the content they are watching you for. To many artists, they are not popular for what their skill and creativity but popular because they happen to draw something that is already popular.
> 
> ...



Well - to begin with, can I just say that I love your dragonish character because I have a weakness to reptiles?... Ok, that aside...

I would like to claim otherwise - FA is a platform - and art is the foundation, art is the base (drawings, story-writing, music and so on). 
Most of the creators don't gain money from it - they do it for fun, for themselves. The market aspect is good for the professionals - it allows them to create more and to exchange art - but it doesn't mean anything about quality, ideas and style. When people treat their art only through the value of money and throw away any other responsibility or aspect - I think it's degrading. And I'll say it again - it's not only about sex: 

Just the other day I looked through random FA stuff, one of the artist drew a fursona (or just a character), wearing SS uniforms. I won't start on this forum what this means to me as a person. In the comment he noted that it was a commission, that he was sorry for his first commission to be a Nazi-soldier, but he was happy that his client appreciate his work. It is sick. The moment you're ready to create anything just for the fame/money and ignore any other ambition - this is one of the result of our community approach. I wanted to curse him or ask him how does he feel, but decided he was not worthy of my time. 

 I'm not sure that money is everything in case of FA for the young artists (or even the professionals). I think that the main motivation to publish aer for a creator is the feeling of appreciation and recognition, maybe just like any other real-artist, not only furry-artist. I'm not sure that the only way to increase artistic-creativity it is through plain economie, maybe there are other ways...


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## Zeitzbach (Apr 27, 2017)

It's easy to feel like you're working just for recognition and appreciation when you're not locked by monetary chain.
This is why you see a lot of young gifted artists offering great pictures for less than scrap value and still feel comfortable because they still get allowances and 90% of the budget they will have to manage in the future is still managed by someone else.

The artist in the example could have chosen to reject drawing the SS uniform because artists do have the choice to reject what they do not want to work on if that's on the ToS, but he or she didn't probably because the need for money which means other factors will have to be removed from the art piece. For a quick view, this is how I view a piece and judge why they are made.







You can only choose to spec in only 2 of that.

Pieces that bring the artist a lot of money and recognition will bring you absolutely no satisfaction after amount of time because the artist is already burned out from drawing it every time. Even if the artist feel happy drawing those at first, a few months in, the artist will start to hate it but can't do anything anymore because the artist has been spamming that kind of picture for money and easy watchers for ages and cannot stop.

Pieces that bring the artist a lot of money and satisfaction won't bring the artist any recognition because of how much of a niche it is most of the time considering how the pieces will have to vary out to keep the artist from burning out. This makes it way harder to build a watcher base that all cater toward a certain direction and will almost guarantee to share your pieces every time you upload something new.

And pieces that the artist love to draw with as much creativity as you want won't earn the artist any money. The artist will get some "Oh so pretty and lovely!" comments once in awhile but these kind of pieces are always hard to sell without undercutting self (reduce some satisfaction) because the amount of effort it takes is way higher than usual.

This can be seen everywhere. It's why I will make jokes like "Oh Frozen was popular. If you're drawing Elsa now, you're desperate for attention" because that's exactly why certain artists will pick up a pen and start drawing detailed pictures of Elsa with a bunch of stuffs on to her just to shout "I'm being original here, guys! My Elsa has black dress instead! Please watch me I draw Elsa too". It just so happen that FA is specifically 90% furries that you only see furry stuffs because it is not a general art marketplace, it's a furry art marketplace so you won't see a black mage Elsa. You will see a muscular black mage furry with visible nipples instead.

You're stuck sacrificing something to gain the other two. The only thing the artist can do is to balance out the choices he/she wishes to make to keep each factor rating in a good spot but when bills start to kick in, you can expect the Money factor to be pushed to the maximum and because they need exposure to sell, the recognition will have to be boosted so it's no wonder none of them really enjoy drawing what they draw but are still stuck drawing those.


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## Butt_Ghost (May 4, 2017)

This stuff - art getting samey, not purely the whole "Everyone drawing porn" deal - is far from exclusive to Furry. Concept art, games industry, fantasy art etc. all have huge markets for their own sorts of pandering: Appealing to popular concept art styles, sci-fi and fantasy artists all copying D&D or drawing fan art for Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and the like, the *whole* comic book industry - like literally everything surrounding that whole industry - being focused on fan art, etc.

If you're not breaking new ground then you're creating what sells, and that might not be exactly what you want to create. If you didn't draw furry then chances are you'd end up in the same situation. Wannabe comic book artists have it even worse: They tend to get stuck drawing the same Marvel/DC/Dr. Who/Sherlock characters over and over and over.

Lastly, consider that if Blacksad, Redwall, Watership Down, Disney, Don Bluth and whatever else managed to be successful and have an audience within the same framework any other "Furry" art adheres to, it proves that there's nothing inherently wrong with the artstyle that makes it unoriginal or vapid. Furry is more or less just as original as any other niche subject on the internet, and the way the "Unoriginal" ideas become popular is pretty much the same as with any other artstyle.


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## Drayx (May 6, 2017)

Zeitzbach said:


> It's easy to feel like you're working just for recognition and appreciation when you're not locked by monetary chain.
> This is why you see a lot of young gifted artists offering great pictures for less than scrap value and still feel comfortable because they still get allowances and 90% of the budget they will have to manage in the future is still managed by someone else.
> 
> The artist in the example could have chosen to reject drawing the SS uniform because artists do have the choice to reject what they do not want to work on if that's on the ToS, but he or she didn't probably because the need for money which means other factors will have to be removed from the art piece. For a quick view, this is how I view a piece and judge why they are made.
> ...



I think we start to get the jest of it, but probably our perspectives are different:

Why did you come up with this diagram? Do you think that art is so rigid that you cannot have it all? Is it not a simplified way to describe the choices we make?
 I doubt that you can only choose 2 - as so many good and quality art is made by great artists (not only drawings, but movies, literature, etc.). I really don't get the point. You say balance - but I think that nonetheless, an artist should strive to do his best - even if he is doing a commission, or some popular theme. Never compromise about your values. And if you don't agree with some contents of the request given - you should refuse, it's that simple. In case you don't - it is only fair to be criticized by others. I think it is low to just hide behind the very convenient excuse of "oh, I did it for money". 

Money is not an issue to be ashamed of but: a. not all artists out there are drawing to get money. b. It does not mean that the art itself should be less creative or less interesting. c. I don't get how money can be your driving force for imagination and creativity.


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## Drayx (May 6, 2017)

Butt_Ghost said:


> This stuff - art getting samey, not purely the whole "Everyone drawing porn" deal - is far from exclusive to Furry. Concept art, games industry, fantasy art etc. all have huge markets for their own sorts of pandering: Appealing to popular concept art styles, sci-fi and fantasy artists all copying D&D or drawing fan art for Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and the like, the *whole* comic book industry - like literally everything surrounding that whole industry - being focused on fan art, etc.
> 
> If you're not breaking new ground then you're creating what sells, and that might not be exactly what you want to create. If you didn't draw furry then chances are you'd end up in the same situation. Wannabe comic book artists have it even worse: They tend to get stuck drawing the same Marvel/DC/Dr. Who/Sherlock characters over and over and over.
> 
> Lastly, consider that if Blacksad, Redwall, Watership Down, Disney, Don Bluth and whatever else managed to be successful and have an audience within the same framework any other "Furry" art adheres to, it proves that there's nothing inherently wrong with the artstyle that makes it unoriginal or vapid. Furry is more or less just as original as any other niche subject on the internet, and the way the "Unoriginal" ideas become popular is pretty much the same as with any other artstyle.



Well - I agree that there is nothing wrong with the artstyle itself. 
There is something wrong with FA (and our community), since it does not encourage artists to fully express themselves and to engage with different styles, themes and ideas.  
It limits art and imagination, it promotes things that makes art lesser and cheap.


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## Butt_Ghost (May 6, 2017)

Drayx said:


> Well - I agree that there is nothing wrong with the artstyle itself.
> There is something wrong with FA (and our community), since it does not encourage artists to fully express themselves and to engage with different styles, themes and ideas.
> It limits art and imagination, it promotes things that makes art lesser and cheap.



Or maybe people are just unoriginal as a conglomerate, or you feel that way because your opinion on what constitutes "creativity" and "imagination" is *incredibly* subjective?
All I see are a bunch of people drawing _what they like -_ which is what the majority are doing - or drawing what gets them paid - which is what you do if you're an artist by profession, in any field. It's the same as any other art community. You're identifying a "Problem" that *isn't* unique to FA, that most people either don't think about or consider a non-issue. If you really, honestly feel like furry art is stifling your creativity then maybe that's cause for some introspection instead of blaming the community.


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## Zeitzbach (May 6, 2017)

Drayx said:


> I think we start to get the jest of it, but probably our perspectives are different:
> 
> Why did you come up with this diagram? Do you think that art is so rigid that you cannot have it all? Is it not a simplified way to describe the choices we make?
> I doubt that you can only choose 2 - as so many good and quality art is made by great artists (not only drawings, but movies, literature, etc.). I really don't get the point. You say balance - but I think that nonetheless, an artist should strive to do his best - even if he is doing a commission, or some popular theme. Never compromise about your values. And if you don't agree with some contents of the request given - you should refuse, it's that simple. In case you don't - it is only fair to be criticized by others. I think it is low to just hide behind the very convenient excuse of "oh, I did it for money".
> ...



The value of an art piece is not determined by the artist. It is determined by the people looking at it. Even if the said piece is extremely pretty, if the community interest is of something else, the piece won't be viewed as great. Same goes to movie/animation. If the people viewing it has a totally different expectation, the movie/animation will be treated as trash even if it's really good when viewed with the right expectation.

The community will not cater to the artist needs. Instead, the artists will have to cater to their need and even if something is really well-known, most of the time, the message of the piece itself will probably be missed completely and it will be popular because of something else. Easy examples are "Spirit away" that is known for its beauty and animation with majority of the people loving it barely even caring about the message it's supposed to be sending. Same goes to "ME!ME!ME!" and so on. They are liked for being crazy and pretty because that's what the community liked, not because of the message they're sending that the artists wish to convey.

When you no longer treat art as a hobby but as a road to fame and glory, you lose out on the majority of your freedom. While you still have a choice to choose, completely shutting off everything outside the comfort zone is NOT an option. The artist must learn to adapt, branch out and make decisions for the sake of his career and future. When they refuse to do so, they are instead labeled as  "Hipster/Very Indie" because of their self-entitled nature.


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## Mandragoras (May 8, 2017)

Honestly, much as I enjoy sexual art personally, most of the furry artists I follow consistently focus either on cleaner work or comics; and I've definitely been blown away by the colour composition and visual storytelling of furry artwork before, some of it erotic in nature. I come to the fandom for emotional gratification and resonance as much as anything else, and the idea that there has somehow been some great decline strikes me as myopic. Sure, sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult, but when you do, it's all the more pleasing.


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## WolfNightV4X1 (May 8, 2017)

The furry fandom itself is meant to cater to individuality, people design a fursona that is reminiscent of themselves and if they get art of it the most they do is draw it doing their favorite hobbies. Artists capitalize on the constant want of people own individuality and it's mainly just drawing their murrsona in a sexy pose or such.

The fandom is ripe with people making OCs and characters that are rainbow colored or extremely unique, but lack any personality because they have no dtory, save for slapping a brief likes/dislikes section on a bio. I honestly have always hated that about OCs, why make just an image of something that youre going to call a "character", a character is supposed to have a life, go through troubles and successes and grow, act certain ways when certain situations arise.

The interesting aspects of the fandom come from artists that capitalize on storytelling not just design. I think Mick89, the creator of sergals, is one of the most famous ones because her universe has a lot of original species with their own culture, expressions, tastes, and feel. I cant think of others off the top of my head but a lot of illustrative artists give more life to their imagery than just a dog posing sexily.


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