# The Separation Between FAF and FA?



## Hybrid Persona (Jun 1, 2014)

So I'm trying to understand, why is it that there's THOUSANDS of active people on FA but only about, what, 20-30 active people on FAF? Is it just that people don't know we exist? Is it because we scared them off for some reason? Maybe it's both?


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## Sylver (Jun 1, 2014)

FA has porn, FAF does not. 

:V


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## Taralack (Jun 1, 2014)

^ basically that

FAF also has a reputation of not being a hugbox.


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## Inpw (Jun 1, 2014)

LionelKC said:


> FA has porn, FAF does not.
> 
> :V



Donno why you used the sarcasm sign though. But this pretty much clears it up.


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## thoron (Jun 1, 2014)

Because FAF is a forum that doesn't have pictures. Its a place for things to be discussed with words. Sadly some people want them merged which to me is a bad idea.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 1, 2014)

LionelKC said:


> FA has porn, FAF does not.
> 
> :V


Could it REALLY be that simple? :\



thoron said:


> Because FAF is a forum that doesn't have pictures. Its a place for things to be discussed with words. Sadly some people want them merged which to me is a bad idea.


Yeah, I don't think it would be a good idea either. But I do wonder what would happen if we made the forum more apparent on FA.


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## Sylver (Jun 1, 2014)

Accretion said:


> Donno why you used the sarcasm sign though. But this pretty much clears it up.



I used the sarcasm sign because it would be ridiculous to assume that people don't come here just because there's no porn; there are many different reasons as to why people who use FA don't use the forums. I assume that the absence of 'porn' or sexually arousing content here does deter some users, but I don't think it's a predominant cause. My first post was meant to be taken as a joke, but with some truth to it.


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## thoron (Jun 1, 2014)

Hybrid Persona said:


> Yeah, I don't think it would be a good idea either. But I do wonder what would happen if we made the forum more apparent on FA.



Would make it far easier to find if they had the forum link on its own and not in a dropdown menu, at least for a newb. I found it easily enough but I guess newer users can't be bothered to look around.


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## Hewge (Jun 1, 2014)

But people on FAF like porn as much as people on FA

? ?


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## dogit (Jun 1, 2014)

Well maybe they are all scared off by Hewge


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## RTDragon (Jun 1, 2014)

OP one reason is that forums PG-13 and the main site majority has pron on their mind so they wouldn't be able to post it here without posting a NSFW warning. Since it's mostly frowned upon on many forums.


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## Carenath (Jun 1, 2014)

Taralack said:


> FAF also has a reputation of not being a hugbox.


That's what I hear, people like that FAF is anti-hugbox even though that behaviour drives some people away.


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## monochromatic-dragon (Jun 1, 2014)

People make introductory posts on here every day, but its usually the regulars who stay, thats true. I think maybe forums in general just don't appeal to everyone. Also, a percentage probably make a ridiculous thread or post or two and are obliterated by the regs.


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## Tailmon1 (Jun 1, 2014)

Darn you mean I cant hug anymore? Oh Poo!


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## thoron (Jun 1, 2014)

Carenath said:


> That's what I hear, people like that FAF is anti-hugbox even though that behaviour drives some people away.



The regulars love it because it drives away the annoying children who can only whine about how unfair life is because their family tell them to not wear their tail and ears to church or something of that nature.


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## Tremodo (Jun 1, 2014)

The usage of forums in general is dropping, all in favor of facebook, tumbler and such.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 1, 2014)

Taralack said:


> ^ basically that
> 
> FAF also has a reputation of not being a hugbox.


If I believed in God, I would thank him for that.


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## Sylver (Jun 1, 2014)

Tremodo said:


> The usage of forums in general is dropping, all in favor of facebook, tumbler and such.



Younger generations can't read or write these days lol, some of them write like they mash their face on the keyboard and somehow something slightly intelligible comes out.. God forbid they actually have to read anything more than one paragraph, poor kiddies could have a stroke.


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## Kalmor (Jun 1, 2014)

I actually made a journal on a similar topic (as in, relating to the reason why there aren't as many people here). http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5717637/ It may/may not be something regulars would like to hear but meh. Also, read the comments.

I am of the personal opinion that we should actually be closer than we are. We're FA's forum, not some standalone furry forum. They're also our main source of traffic. Having them separated (except in the case of servers and databases, because if FA goes down, it's nice to have the forums still up) doesn't make all that much sense.


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## Captain Howdy (Jun 1, 2014)

Don't forget that within the internet, there's an overabudance of places to spout whatever is in your brain, regardless of content, and regardless of the intended audience. FAF sorta has that feel, but with the (hopeful) realisation that you'll be judged by what you post - If you bring A-game material, you'll get roughly the same response and a couple 'whatevers', but if you bring C-grade material, you'll get _that_ level of response, and a lot more 'whatevers'.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 2, 2014)

Kalmor said:


> I actually made a journal on a similar topic (as in, relating to the reason why there aren't as many people here). http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5717637/ It may/may not be something regulars would like to hear but meh. Also, read the comments.
> 
> I am of the personal opinion that we should actually be closer than we are. We're FA's forum, not some standalone furry forum. They're also our main source of traffic. Having them separated (except in the case of servers and databases, because if FA goes down, it's nice to have the forums still up) doesn't make all that much sense.


you want to here something funny...
SoFurry suffers the same problem...
and their forums is integrated into the site itself.
Their majority go into the chatrooms, and the forum regulars are the folks who are in the TWO adult roleplay areas...


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## RTDragon (Jun 2, 2014)

The fact Kalmor while that may be your personal opinion, but there's also the issues here is the Main site has it's own share of problems that have not been solved at all yet. i don't think you realize it's not just FAF problems but given the fact it's shows that staff aren't really reliable considering the years of suggestions being ignored and complaints constantly on the fender journals. So most likely not going to happen anytime soon if ever.


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## LizardKing (Jun 2, 2014)

The kind of people who want to post on a forum and spend more than 5 seconds than typing out "lol that's hot" are not necessarily the same people who want a quick fix browsing some furry art or whatever. It's an entirely different form of social interaction, so unsurprisingly it attracts different people.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 2, 2014)

LizardKing said:


> The kind of people who want to post on a forum and spend more than 5 seconds than typing out "lol that's hot" are not necessarily the same people who want a quick fix browsing some furry art or whatever. It's an entirely different form of social interaction, so unsurprisingly it attracts different people.


Yeah, I can see that, but why do both attract a very disproportionate amount of people? I guess you could give the same reason for that but that's iffy at best.


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## RTDragon (Jun 2, 2014)

Have you been to other forums Hybrid Persona since you seem to ask this question?


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 2, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Have you been to other forums Hybrid Persona since you seem to ask this question?


Yep. I've been active on six forums in total and have also posted a little on a lot of other forums for various reasons at the time. I guess five though if you don't count the one I started.

But I don't understand what bearing this has on the OP.


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## RTDragon (Jun 2, 2014)

Actually it does since if you have been to a non furry forum like most others i assume you asked this questions on other forums. So i would assume you got the same answers here form the other five forums you were active. 
I have a feeling your very disappointed with the answers you got from those forums, and expect a different answer from here am i right?


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 2, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Actually it does since if you have been to a non furry forum like most others i assume you asked this questions on other forums. So i would assume you got the same answers here form the other five forums you were active.
> I have a feeling your very disappointed with the answers you got from those forums, and expect a different answer from here am i right?


Nope. This question is unique to this forum since I don't seem to see this odd behavior anywhere else.


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## RTDragon (Jun 2, 2014)

Then you have not been on FA for very long then. I've have seen strict moderation on other forums and for good reason considering certain types of behaviors from main sites won't fly well on forums especially if you want to make a fool of yourself in front of regulars who assume common sense which sadly is missing from most of the internet.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 2, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Then you have not been on FA for very long then. I've have seen strict moderation on other forums and for good reason considering certain types of behaviors from main sites won't fly well on forums especially if you want to make a fool of yourself in front of regulars who assume common sense which sadly is missing from most of the internet.


*shrug* I don't know. I see a lot of sensible people on FA that I think would be just fine here but they don't post.


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## kharonalpua (Jun 3, 2014)

I can think of a few options. One fo the most prominent, and logn my reason for not joining in on the forums, is that it requires a separate account entirely. Even if you get the same name, it's still a separate registration, when it should, in theory, be fairly easy to set up 1 FA account = 1 FAF account, same name, same password, made at the same time. Integrating the forums into the main site would also be helpful, though not necessary -- perhaps if comments were forum-based it might help, especially with artists who want to do WIP work in pursuit of feedback with a desire to improve -- but this isn't necessary.

Certainly, there's a different audience for forums versus just looking at art, but I think a large number of folks do want to be part of an active community, and tighter integration of the forums with the main site would help that a lot, at least in my mind.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 3, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> I can think of a few options. One fo the most prominent, and logn my reason for not joining in on the forums, is that it requires a separate account entirely. Even if you get the same name, it's still a separate registration, when it should, in theory, be fairly easy to set up 1 FA account = 1 FAF account, same name, same password, made at the same time. Integrating the forums into the main site would also be helpful, though not necessary -- perhaps if comments were forum-based it might help, especially with artists who want to do WIP work in pursuit of feedback with a desire to improve -- but this isn't necessary.
> 
> Certainly, there's a different audience for forums versus just looking at art, but I think a large number of folks do want to be part of an active community, and tighter integration of the forums with the main site would help that a lot, at least in my mind.


it often doesnt as often the forum and site folks tend to still diverge away naturally. This is obvious with Sofurry as even when their service is intergrated, the forum goers and the site users are still two different communities.
If anything it would be more like like having a city, but the downtown district is very different from the rest of the town.


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## kharonalpua (Jun 3, 2014)

I still feel it would help to know that being a citizen of the city means I can go the downtown without needing to get a Downtown ID first. I'm not saying it would make everybody swarm the forums, but it would remove one potential barrier to forum participation that some people may be using as an excuse not to bring up site complaints or issues or otheriwse be part of the community.


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## RTDragon (Jun 3, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> I still feel it would help to know that being a citizen of the city means I can go the downtown without needing to get a Downtown ID first. I'm not saying it would make everybody swarm the forums, but it would remove one potential barrier to forum participation that some people may be using as an excuse not to bring up site complaints or issues or otheriwse be part of the community.



No it would not at all considering there's a one big problem with that. Which i don't think you understand since most places i know separate both main and forums for a good reason. Though why would you force that upon people who don't want to use the forums but want to enjoy the main site and vice versa.


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## Erethzium (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't use the forums very often because I'm not that "into" the fandom.

I'm just here for the porn. Nothing else.



kharonalpua said:


> but it would remove one potential barrier to forum participation that some people may be using as an excuse not to bring up site complaints or issues or otheriwse be part of the community.





kharonalpua said:


> one potential barrier to forum participation



Signing up for an account takes less than 5 minutes. Not really much of a "barrier".


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## kharonalpua (Jun 4, 2014)

Time is not the problem. Hassle is. Google, for example, doesn't make me sign up one account for Drive and one for Gmail. Yahoo uses the same signup for chat and mail. Microsoft uses the same sign-up for email and Office. Deviantart, even makes the forums and main site use the same account. It really isn't hard to set up your site's backend to propagate a single account in one section to give an account with matching credentials in another, and not doing it just shows laziness on the part of the site's administration. My private imageboard/wiki is even set up to do it, so I'm not just blowing smoke about how easy it is -- I set it up on my own.

Doing that would, in no way, make more people come here or participate, it would only make it easier (yes, sign-up is easy, but not having an extra sign-up is easier than easy) for those who do wish to participate. It would take away an excuse that they may use, and it should be fairly easy to implement, at least for future accounts (a bit harder to make it work with all existing accounts, but it is doable). There's a lot more that it would take to actually encourage people to use the forums, but this could be one step that stops discouraging some of them from it.

This is in no way an attempt to force people into the forums, just like the existence of Downtown isn't forcing City people to spend time there. This is recognizing that because Downtown and the City are the same place, people can move between the two parts seamlessly, and providing that same, seamless, transition between the two parts of the FA community.


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## RTDragon (Jun 4, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> Time is not the problem. Hassle is. Google, for example, doesn't make me sign up one account for Drive and one for Gmail. Yahoo uses the same signup for chat and mail. Microsoft uses the same sign-up for email and Office. Deviantart, even makes the forums and main site use the same account. It really isn't hard to set up your site's backend to propagate a single account in one section to give an account with matching credentials in another, and not doing it just shows laziness on the part of the site's administration. My private imageboard/wiki is even set up to do it, so I'm not just blowing smoke about how easy it is -- I set it up on my own.
> 
> Doing that would, in no way, make more people come here or participate, it would only make it easier (yes, sign-up is easy, but not having an extra sign-up is easier than easy) for those who do wish to participate. It would take away an excuse that they may use, and it should be fairly easy to implement, at least for future accounts (a bit harder to make it work with all existing accounts, but it is doable). There's a lot more that it would take to actually encourage people to use the forums, but this could be one step that stops discouraging some of them from it.
> 
> This is in no way an attempt to force people into the forums, just like the existence of Downtown isn't forcing City people to spend time there. This is recognizing that because Downtown and the City are the same place, people can move between the two parts seamlessly, and providing that same, seamless, transition between the two parts of the FA community.



Most forums i went to do really work that way Kharonalpua. As Verin Asper said forum and site folk diverge naturally. And your examples about Deviantart it's different considering it's actually a business which is very well popular that caters to different artists than FA which is mostly about furry artwork, You can't really compare the two.


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## kharonalpua (Jun 4, 2014)

Sorry, they're both art community sites. One may cater to the general audience while the other caters to a niche market, but they are both art community sites. One may allow pornographic content while the other bans it, but they are both art community sites. One may be run as a business while the other is run as a hobby, but they are both art community sites.

The fact is, if I could post all of my work on dA, I would -- but I can't, because I do make smutty stories that violate dA's terms of use by depicting explicit sexual actions. So I need a backup site, and for me, that's what FA is. It's my backup that caters to the furry community and allows me to post porn/smut content. I would consider leaving FA behind if dA would let me post everything there, because FA has its own set of arbitrary restrictions and rules about what I can and can't post, and at what resolutions I can post them (seriously, as a professional 3D artist, I'm expected to produce works of 1920x1080 (or equivalent) or higher, but I can only post them up to 1280x720 on here; that is, however, a rant for another time).

I am not saying that everybody in the artist galleries wants to be on the forums, but is it really a problem to consider that every gallery-viewing account should get an automatic forum account, so those who do want to come over here can do so without any barriers, however small, in their way? Forum and Gallery should be immediately open to all the same people is all I'm proposing. There are ways the site could be made stronger, but they would necessitate running it like a business, which is not in the cards as I understand it. This is just a way to open up the forums to everybody who might be interested, but is put off by even the smallest of barriers.


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## RTDragon (Jun 4, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> I am not saying that everybody in the artist galleries wants to be on the forums, but is it really a problem to consider that every gallery-viewing account should get an automatic forum account, so those who do want to come over here can do so without any barriers, however small, in their way? Forum and Gallery should be immediately open to all the same people is all I'm proposing. There are ways the site could be made stronger, but they would necessitate running it like a business, which is not in the cards as I understand it. This is just a way to open up the forums to everybody who might be interested, but is put off by even the smallest of barriers.



You did not pay any attention to mine Vesper and Eretzium posts. why do you think this section of the subforums has a main site ban appeal? Your idea here can have some big problems what if a user get suspended for violations on the main site and can't use their account cause the main and site forum accounts are linked. Plus TT on the main site are slow and unreliable which could take months. So one main reason that idea is out of the window cause of that problem especially if you can't appeal the ban at all cause of the forums/main site merging into one.

And being put off by the smallest of barriers that's sounds like laziness coming from you especially since it does not take much time to make a separate account for the forums.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 4, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> Time is not the problem. Hassle is. Google, for example, doesn't make me sign up one account for Drive and one for Gmail. Yahoo uses the same signup for chat and mail. Microsoft uses the same sign-up for email and Office. Deviantart, even makes the forums and main site use the same account. It really isn't hard to set up your site's backend to propagate a single account in one section to give an account with matching credentials in another, and not doing it just shows laziness on the part of the site's administration. My private imageboard/wiki is even set up to do it, so I'm not just blowing smoke about how easy it is -- I set it up on my own.
> 
> Doing that would, in no way, make more people come here or participate, it would only make it easier (yes, sign-up is easy, but not having an extra sign-up is easier than easy) for those who do wish to participate. It would take away an excuse that they may use, and it should be fairly easy to implement, at least for future accounts (a bit harder to make it work with all existing accounts, but it is doable). There's a lot more that it would take to actually encourage people to use the forums, but this could be one step that stops discouraging some of them from it.
> 
> This is in no way an attempt to force people into the forums, just like the existence of Downtown isn't forcing City people to spend time there. This is recognizing that because Downtown and the City are the same place, people can move between the two parts seamlessly, and providing that same, seamless, transition between the two parts of the FA community.


My example is about SoFurry, their Forums is the downtown...and the majority of the users on SoFurry though don't go downtown.

as RTD stated that having the two combined does have problems though again using SoFurry: if you are banned from the site...you are BANNED from the site. No Chat, no Forums no main site. ON THE OTHER HAND, SoFurry has a system where they can ban you from specific areas for a time. The problem is...if SoFurry goes down, everything goes down. For FA, the Art server and the Forums server are two different servers (and located in two different areas I heard). Note you dont need to make a forum account to participate, if not the majority of the main site don't seem to mind that as they have no use for the forums other than when it goes down and see whats going on. Even then they don't really participate as they just read and go on their way, but for those who wish to can particiate by making an account even if they hardly use it and only come here when there are site problems.


If you believe just making a separate account cause the servers are separate is a small barrier...why is there a complaint.


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## Carenath (Jun 4, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> ...It really isn't hard to set up your site's backend to propagate a single account in one section to give an account with matching credentials in another, and not doing it just shows laziness on the part of the site's administration. My private imageboard/wiki is even set up to do it...


If I recall, the FA forums were an afterthought in the original design run as a seperate entity that doubled up as a communications tool during the frequent outage windows (I'm looking at you, Ironpath). Now as it stands we have two completely different databases with a good number of conflicting IDs so I think introducing a single-sign-on for the forums and the main site would cause more problems than they would solve.


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## kharonalpua (Jun 5, 2014)

The complaint is that it's sloppy and lazy site design and maintenance. If I, who am not really much of a coder (semi-competent, perhaps), can run my own private site using a single log-in system through a single database of users that my different sections all link to, why can't a professionally coded site like FA? I mean, from everything I've heard, Yak is supposed to be a professional, even if this site is a hobby, right?

Why does it have to be an issue that if a user is banned from one part of the site they're banned from the other? A simple setting in the users database could set which parts of the site they're active/banned on. It could be a character value like "a" for all of the site, "f" for forums, "g" for gallery/mainsite (meaning comments, journals, uploads, etc.), and "n" for "no bans." As pointed out, SoFurry has a system like this in place, where you can get banned from part or all of the site. At this point, I recognize that it's not a trivial operation, but in something like a FA2 update, they could design a better, more elegant solution to all of this that does unify forum and mainsite accounts, that allows partial site bans (perhaps even more fine grained than my "afgn" bans, they could allow users to be banned from specific functions of the site but not others). These are not things that can be changed overnight, and may be impossible without completely overhauling the whole site infrastructure, but that doesn't mean they should be dismissed, any more than a landlord should dismiss ideas that would make a home more appealing to tenants.

Is avoiding something because of a small barrier laziness? Absolutely, RTDragon! It's also part of human nature. Why should we do more work than we need to? We need food, so why hunt an elephant, when a deer will do? Why stalk a deer when a few rabbits, easily trapped, will do just as well? The march of progress has always been about making it possible to do less work, and the idea of needing a separate city, state, and federal ID is as outdated as the idea of being required to have multiple accounts at the same primary domain is to me. I won't lie -- I do have four (maybe five) Google accounts, but two of those are by choice (personal and professional), and the others are all by associations which assigned me an account through Google Apps (my employer and my university). But Google is smart enough to let me be logged into basic functionality for all for all of them at once, I can easily switch from my personal account to my professional one to check email or post on G+ -- the only major restrictions are Drive use.

So, if FA is coded by a professional coder, even as a hobby, why can't it be designed, or redesigned, to function like other modern sites? Regardless of what everybody insists, it's easy to compare apples and oranges, and it's easy to compare FA and dA, because despite their different markets, they are both art community sites. Also, due to the topic of this thread, the vast separation between FA and FAF users, FAF opinions probably don't reflect the majority attitudes of FA users. For every person here who speaks against the hivemind, who knows how many are too lazy, or unaware of the forums, to come here and say the same thing? Real-world organizations like to extrapolate things like 1:100 or more, but I'll be conservative. For every kharonalpua saying that forum separation might decrease if the forums were better integrated with the mainsite (main bar link, not in a submenu; shared account), there may be 10 more furs who aren't willing, or aware enough, to say it.

And as much as laziness is part of human nature, so is stubbornness -- we resist changes because it's easier to be stuck in place than change our own habits. But eventually, we still tend to embrace the changes that do make it easier to be lazy, and I think that tighter integration would be a big deal that would do precisely that, if the site ever gets a major makeover and redesign which will require the opposite of laziness.


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## RTDragon (Jun 5, 2014)

I would really stop having high expectation of this site as well as most sites in particular. Considering you have not been on FA or the forums for this long you don't know much about this site history at all. It's clear here that FA is behind most other modern sites but from what i see most users here on the Main site like the old site despite the coding being old. 

And you are continuing to ignore what is being said. This is not your art gallery or forums. It's basically an art site catered to furries and anthro artists. Basically when i signed up for this site it's a privilege to use it. So i don't have the right to be entitled to more up to date things like other art sites. Each website is ran differently. So if i don't like the site design or place at first then i'd adjust to it. If i can't then i move on to another site that i am comfortable with.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 5, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> The complaint is that it's sloppy and lazy site design and maintenance. If I, who am not really much of a coder (semi-competent, perhaps), can run my own private site using a single log-in system through a single database of users that my different sections all link to, why can't a professionally coded site like FA? I mean, from everything I've heard, Yak is supposed to be a professional, even if this site is a hobby, right?


Just cause a person is a PROFESSIONAL, doesnt mean anything since its VOLUNTEER work and many people know "Volunteers tend to not put out professional grade work for nothing" Most of SoFurry's updates were not done by the main coding team but by the user base. Also you just came from reading Carenath's post of which FAF forums is an afterthought. Note there are art sites that DON'T have a forum (inkbunny dont have one), and those that do fall into two pools of which the Forums was a considered idea from the start and they had a team to do the specific coding OF said forums to utilize the same database without having conflicts (to which FA would have conflicts due to how users are stored on the database with the biggest evidence of such being we arent able to change our usernames unlike how you can on SoFurry) or the other ones where the idea for a forum came afterward and they dont have anyone who had forum knowledge thus went the path of a easy to setup forum (which I believe was FA's case). I mean we could ask Yak if he at the time knows how to do forum integration, but if he happens to say no...then this could of been why FA went the path of someone else offering to host the forums on a separate server which utilized a separate database cause the servers are separated.



kharonalpua said:


> Why does it have to be an issue that if a user is banned from one part of the site they're banned from the other? A simple setting in the users database could set which parts of the site they're active/banned on. It could be a character value like "a" for all of the site, "f" for forums, "g" for gallery/mainsite (meaning comments, journals, uploads, etc.), and "n" for "no bans." As pointed out, SoFurry has a system like this in place, where you can get banned from part or all of the site. At this point, I recognize that it's not a trivial operation, but in something like a FA2 update, they could design a better, more elegant solution to all of this that does unify forum and mainsite accounts, that allows partial site bans (perhaps even more fine grained than my "afgn" bans, they could allow users to be banned from specific functions of the site but not others). These are not things that can be changed overnight, and may be impossible without completely overhauling the whole site infrastructure, but that doesn't mean they should be dismissed, any more than a landlord should dismiss ideas that would make a home more appealing to tenants.


Cause SoFurry suffered from this mess themselves for a while. The Foundation still remain, being the bad database set up, as much of FA2.0 is visual changes with the internal work to make things run smoothly. SoFurry was already optimized with their database so they were easily able to update the site visually, and integrate things without major problems at the start (as the joked FA way of "duct taping" things to the old coding thus having conflicts or things being gone for years on end). Your Landlord example "why dont every single apartment complex decide to just include a washer and dryer for every apartment instead of just opting to have a laundry room building." they do leave you with the option to get your own washer and dryer by having the all the stuff there in your apartment...but why dont they just install em from the start?





kharonalpua said:


> So, if FA is coded by a professional coder, even as a hobby, why can't it be designed, or redesigned, to function like other modern sites? Regardless of what everybody insists, it's easy to compare apples and oranges, and it's easy to compare FA and dA, because despite their different markets, they are both art community sites. Also, due to the topic of this thread, the vast separation between FA and FAF users, FAF opinions probably don't reflect the majority attitudes of FA users. For every person here who speaks against the hivemind, who knows how many are too lazy, or unaware of the forums, to come here and say the same thing? Real-world organizations like to extrapolate things like 1:100 or more, but I'll be conservative. For every kharonalpua saying that forum separation might decrease if the forums were better integrated with the mainsite (main bar link, not in a submenu; shared account), there may be 10 more furs who aren't willing, or aware enough, to say it.


Cause define a modern website...and dont use DA as that site isnt that modern as its a site that constantly updates its back end to which already had the idea of forums and the site being one from the start. I would say "why didnt FA follow the norm of the Forums and Site being developed from the start as one which would then go right back to the legacy code..."Did FA's beginning coding team had the ability to do so? Is that why we ended up with another person offering to run the forums for FA?" I mean Weasyl utilized SEPARATED site and Forums and its considered much more modern than FA...but I been hearing rumors they are working on a new forums that will be integrated into the site but that might just come at the cost of everything being lost due to the old forums will be gone)



kharonalpua said:


> And as much as laziness is part of human nature, so is stubbornness -- we resist changes because it's easier to be stuck in place than change our own habits. But eventually, we still tend to embrace the changes that do make it easier to be lazy, and I think that tighter integration would be a big deal that would do precisely that, if the site ever gets a major makeover and redesign which will require the opposite of laziness.


 No, some people resist change cause often time time that change isnt needed...I should know...I live in florida and 95% of the changes we get are stuff we don't need but we constantly be told "its beneficial... those stuff only benefit those who requested it cause it benefit THEM more so than the whole
So tell me, if we did integrate the database and sign up process of which if you make an FA account you get a forum account...is there any real benefit? Is there any real benefit to do the actual work and stuff...to only end up with the same people still not using FAF (due to FAF is still the downtown and they have no interest on what happens downtown), and the same people who do come to FAF...coming to FAF anyway.
Would it make you just content enough just know "well at least the site and forum are one" when there is a chance... nothing literally changed?

Actually I want you to go over to Inkbunny and ask them "Why don't they have a forum" despite being much more advance than FA in the coding area.


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## kharonalpua (Jun 5, 2014)

We're not talking about Inkbunny here. They choose not to have a forum at all, and I respect that they made that choice. I'm not trying to say every site ever needs to offer every single service imaginable.

And if it change nothing in the userbase of FAF? Yes, I would be satisfied just knowing that the one change had been implemented. That people weren't coming because they don't want to come rather than because they're put off by a potential barrier, however small.

And as for the professionalism of the staff -- a professional who volunteers to do the same thing he does professionally should be expected to give at least as much to his volunteer work (which he does for his own pleasure and enjoyment) as he does for his paying employers. If I tried to tell someone that the hobby work I do in 3D modeling is of a lower quality than the work I get paid for, nobody would ever take me seriously. I am an artist, and if I don't produce art at the top of my game when I make it for my own enjoyment, how can someone trust that I'll be more skilled or competent when paying me? The same is true for all sorts of volunteer and hobbyist work options. If I were a site designer, I would expect the best of my best works to be my personal site, followed by the site I support for the hobby community I am most interested in. Would my paid works still be high quality? Absolutely, but the stuff I do out of love for the work and community is something I would expect to put more into than "well, this is just a hobby" or "Well, I'm just volunteering without pay, so I'll slap something together as quick as I can." Any volunteer who isn't putting everything into his or her volunteer work that goes into equally important paying work is a bad volunteer.

RTDragon: I am quite comfortable with the site as a whole. There are a few little things, like being able to upload larger images, that I might like for the site in general, but you don't know how long I have been here (I have been with FA for almost 8 years, admittedly with a low output) except for my forum membership, which got put off due to not being a terribly social person, and especially my dislike of the one little barrier of having to have a second account on the furaffinity.net domain (even if this one is only on the forums subdomain) when I've been a member of the site for 8 years.

I'm not trying to say that I feel entitled to having a single login -- just that it seems to me that the site's UX suffers when you ask people to make two accounts just to use the whole site. What if someone registers a well-known name on the forum just to take advantage of that name, or worse to abuse it and smear the reputation of the mainsite member who uses it?

I thought this was a place where we could discuss things, but all I'm seeing in response to my completely on-topic proposal that the forums might be less separated if there was a shared account system is what feels like attacks that "It's fine, we don't need to change anything. They don't want to join us anyway." Maybe they don't want to join the forums. And that's fine, their choice and all. But maybe there's a reason they don't want to join, and maybe I'm way off-base in thinking a tiny barrier is the reason. Maybe there's a bigger barrier that puts them off that I didn't see before I did sign up for this forum account the other day.

And maybe there's no barrier. I could be wrong. But it seems strange to me for a community site to be resistant to ideas that might open the community up to parts of the community that aren't participating right now. I pointed out the barrier that for the past few years, when I've been working on stuff and was contributing to the community, has kept me from joining the forums, and only lurking, until now.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 6, 2014)

kharonalpua said:


> We're not talking about Inkbunny here. They choose not to have a forum at all, and I respect that they made that choice. I'm not trying to say every site ever needs to offer every single service imaginable.
> 
> And if it change nothing in the userbase of FAF? Yes, I would be satisfied just knowing that the one change had been implemented. That people weren't coming because they don't want to come rather than because they're put off by a potential barrier, however small.
> 
> ...



I might have to tell you a dark secret then...
There is often 2 or 3 common reasons for people for not using the forums, specially for FAF

1.)They see no point on participating: these people are fine enough just being able to read up on things instead of participating. The FAF forums is often time used when the main site is down to inform people of why its down (though for a odd while they used twitter...I still dont have a twitter after all these years and didnt know FA had one cause they never really push that info out there), or just browse about on topics being talked about but not participate. You don't need an account to see the discussions on FAF.

2. The Enviroment of FAF appears to be rather hostile: we actually had people who did go thru the process of signing up here... to only leave cause they didnt look around first and end up pressing out of the our lovely buttons you shouldnt press (though less of those buttons are around now, but still give off this hostile air). This often confuse people as a community should be one right? No...not exactly, this is the reason why SoFurry community works is that they accept everyone may not actually be able to tolerate each other thus they have groups and within those groups their own forums (yo, we allow ya to make ya own forums within a forum cause we know no one really like the baby furs so they can hang in their own group and also not allow those who are into cub porn...they can have their own group too.)

3. They are hanging out somewhere else anyway: I will admit something...I'm on the TF2 FacePunch forums than on here, and to which the only reason I had made a forum account on FA is often to participate in the Rant and Raves, VGD, and actually open my mouth on site changes instead of just whining on the main site (which dont do anything as people forget that back then the forums is where changes started.)


Its why there was a joke about those who do come to the forums thinking this is just like the main site where if you act cutesy enough people will fawn all over you...to only get told "cut that out". FAF is considered where there is a high degree of "no nonsense", a place where we will tell you "it's your fault" or "thats fucked up" instead of ass pats that one would get on their journals. I mean to use an example, a furry has recently been sent to jail...for child porn and a furry made a journal about it...feeling sorry that they lost another artist. Said journal was full of ass pats, for a person that had ACTUAL CHILD PORN. Giving their wishes that the person will be alright, that they get out soon (they are in there for 5 years boyo, you'll forget about them as you only care for them due to they draw porn). It wasnt till eventually much more sane furs got wind of this and said journal started to have people arguing with those that was in support of the person.
IF that same journal was posted on FAF as a topic, instead you'll get "thats what they get" and people ACTUALLY discussing the news story. Though you'll always will get a few people who will point and laugh at the person's badly drawn porn.

I do understand that you do believe that since this is FA's Forums we should be one community, but I have seen people on FAF who isnt even ON FA. Maybe the whole Downtown example was wrong...FA and FAF are like the Dakotas: "We share a common name but we are two different communities in mentality." Could we integrate the forums? Maybe, I can only guess if we do go that path we would lose this forum and have to start over from scratch and it had to be a planned item for the recoded site (if that ever comes), but we can still just end up as FA being North Dakota and the Forums being South Dakota again.


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## ferretsage (Jun 6, 2014)

<<<<< *points proudly to "join date" under avatar.*
<<<<< *points equally proudly to relatively low post count underneath that.*

The ancient history of these forums is that the admins made the trolls mods and everyone left. Just try to find a REGULAR poster with a pre-2007 "join date". I'll make it easier: try to find regulars pre-2010. Or pre-2012. If they exist, they're very rare -- check their accounts for posting activity in the past 6 months. There's your first clue.

Notice that most of the "forum regulars" joined 2013 and after (yet have a ridiculous 5,000+ posts despite being relative "newfags") and style themselves senior furry experts looking down their noses at, "people who turn the fandom into their social lives and type endlessly from their mommy's basements" *snickers* (when they, themselves, judging by their posting activity and young accounts, are the party overwhelmingly the most guilty). That's your second clue.

Remember, topics entertaining ideas in a positive light other than sublimating your *super-human* fantasies impotently on paper means you're going to rape kids, cats, and dogs because if the people who make this forum their home were to take their *sub-human fantasies* out into reality, this is apparently the first thing they'd do. Only the ordinary is extraordinary to the "furries" that regularly inhabit these toxic waters -- everything else is basement dwellers and dog fuckers to them. This is your third and final clue. 

Try something new here. I fucking dare you. I think the users of the main FurAffinity know better by now that if they have something to say to someone they should keep it to their watchers viewing their journals. This separation of FurAffinity from its forums is a successful decapitation of the subculture by design: it keeps furries from becoming Legion.

EDIT: *laughs* It's been so long since I last posted here, I forgot my signature below -- totally relevant to this thread.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 6, 2014)

ferretsage said:


> <<<<< *points proudly to "join date" under avatar.*
> <<<<< *points equally proudly to relatively low post count underneath that.*
> 
> snip


Sounds like you got some personal bias in that assessment there. Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?"


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## Mentova (Jun 7, 2014)

ferretsage said:


> <<<<< *points proudly to "join date" under avatar.*
> <<<<< *points equally proudly to relatively low post count underneath that.*
> 
> The ancient history of these forums is that the admins made the trolls mods and everyone left. Just try to find a REGULAR poster with a pre-2007 "join date". I'll make it easier: try to find regulars pre-2010. Or pre-2012. If they exist, they're very rare -- check their accounts for posting activity in the past 6 months. There's your first clue.
> ...



Its true, we're all trolls :c


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## ferretsage (Jun 7, 2014)

Hybrid Persona said:


> Sounds like you got some personal bias in that assessment there. Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?"



>>Sounds like you got some personal bias in that assessment there.

My assessment does not reveal my bias. My bias is made abundantly clear with every post I make -- my signature succinctly expounding my position. I even called it and made an EDIT to my post, 6 hours before you replied to it, to explicitly remark and marvel about exactly that.

>>Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?" Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?" Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?" Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?" Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?" Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?" Can you prove at all that the mods are just "trolls?"

If you read that sentence enough times... it's almost like you're asking something else... though similar... just drop the "at", "that", and "the"... like a ridiculous question about a statement I never asserted... oh... wait...

**claps**

I suppose I did say that "EVERYONE" left, which is obviously false exploited and willfully misinterpreted as literal rather than metaphorical as intended.

I will foolishly give you the benefit of the doubt and blame stupidity rather than guile in finding the position that wins you the most approval with the audience here at the expense of honest communication.




Mentova said:


> Its true, we're all trolls :c



With you, however, there is no question.

You, with droll irony, quoted the entirely of a lengthy post to add a snarky five word one-liner to highlight how much of a troll you are not. :V

Your statement's irony is intentionally misplaced because you actually are trolling.

The message you send as a moderator is clear: you openly welcome FurAffinity Forums exactly as the hostile unwelcoming environment most FurAffinity users avoid like the plague. I ended up on FurAffinity Forums today only because Chrome reported FurAffinity's security certificate expired and I wondered what was up. No posts on that apparently irrelevant topic, I see. Keep the main website in tip-top shape and spooks like me will disappear from the insular approval-trap laden world of the FurAffinity Forums back to the "horrid main website".

It's not as though after spending 20 years in a fandom hyper-saturated in every possible sexual fetish known to man I somehow developed enough robust knowledge of the rote invariable patterns of furries people to make Sigmund Freud envious.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 7, 2014)

ferretsage said:


> <<<<< *points proudly to "join date" under avatar.*
> <<<<< *points equally proudly to relatively low post count underneath that.*
> 
> The ancient history of these forums is that the admins made the trolls mods and everyone left. Just try to find a REGULAR poster with a pre-2007 "join date". I'll make it easier: try to find regulars pre-2010. Or pre-2012. If they exist, they're very rare -- check their accounts for posting activity in the past 6 months. There's your first clue.
> ...



The Current Forum Regulars are often from the 2008-2010 time period...note the definition of REGULAR is a person who Visits OFTEN. No...its not a person who existed on the forum a long time ago, thus the term is is actually Forum Senior (which some of from the 2008 group are reaching due to still coming here to talk even if its not at a regular pace). Lets add something else: I joined back in 2008, which I'm currently 25 this year (actually turn 25) thus at that time I would be 18. I had more time when I was 18 to post here and hang out than I do now as I constantly work, as time went on, I posted less as I started to work more hours at my job to the point around 2010/2011 I stopped posting as I had more responsibilities that took more priority than posting here. The only times I would show up to post is when discussions for site changes was open and I would voice my mind on said changes.

I learn in life that really "post count and date don't matter" You being "proud" of the date you joined, and you being "proud" of your post count really means nothing at this point due to how this forum evolved since your time.

If your reasoning for leaving during your time on the forums is cause of "troll" mods, I have to ask one thing...
"what is your definition of a troll"

Cause I can tell you, while FAF is horrible, FA is even worst...thanks to tumblr...and users willing to oust scumbags.

Actually thats odd, usually when furries do tumblr posts about FA being bad, they mostly talking about FA, hardly about the forums. The only place I know that do have a hate towards FAF is SoFurry who often say FAF is the problem of the fandom because we don't run on acceptance but a system of tolerance.


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## Taralack (Jun 7, 2014)

ferretsage said:


> Just try to find a REGULAR poster with a pre-2007 "join date". I'll make it easier: try to find regulars pre-2010. Or pre-2012. If they exist, they're very rare -- check their accounts for posting activity in the past 6 months. There's your first clue.



Hmmmmmmmm............


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## Maugryph (Jun 8, 2014)

LionelKC said:


> I used the sarcasm sign because it would be ridiculous to assume that people don't come here just because there's no porn; there are many different reasons as to why people who use FA don't use the forums. I assume that the absence of 'porn' or sexually arousing content here does deter some users, but I don't think it's a predominant cause. My first post was meant to be taken as a joke, but with some truth to it.



Why are you saying your comment was a joke when you hit the nail right on the head?

@thoron the forums are not that hard to find, its right under the community tab


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## thoron (Jun 8, 2014)

Maugryph said:


> @thoron the forums are not that hard to find, its right under the community tab



I already know that. I'm pretty sure I've made mention that its easy enough to find just by poking around, but that some people can't seem to bothered to do so.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 9, 2014)

Verin Asper said:


> The only place I know that do have a hate towards FAF is SoFurry who often say FAF is the problem of the fandom because we don't run on acceptance but a system of tolerance.



Which is ironic considering they're absolutely congruent with the classic FAF exclusive elitist mentality. But they have a case of oversensitivity just a little bit more.


(Oops did I just make a jab at FAF? That wasn't supposed to happen.)


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## Verin Asper (Jun 14, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> Which is ironic considering they're absolutely congruent with the classic FAF exclusive elitist mentality. But they have a case of oversensitivity just a little bit more.
> 
> 
> (Oops did I just make a jab at FAF? That wasn't supposed to happen.)


SoFurry has a case of oversensitivity, while FAF is in the opposite direction of "these damn idiots"


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## TheArchiver (Jun 14, 2014)

Verin Asper said:


> while FAF is in the opposite direction of "these damn idiots"



You mean used to.


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## nereza (Jun 15, 2014)

I think in part besides the difference between a art community and a text community, FAF members are very opinionated and wont think twice about saying what they think about any given topic wile FA is a bit more reserve if a argument or debate dose trike up it usually not to the same degree and may even lead to the file being removed all together, despite the odd bit of drama its still a welcoming site to be on for old members and new members alike. 
Where as its harder to get into FAF in the beginning I found the debates to be a bit intimidating as before hand I came from very welcoming homey chat sites, It was day and night though eventually I got used to it. Despite enjoying the more homey felling of our local groups I will hop on here from time to time and give my own thoughts on debates and topics.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 15, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> You mean used to.


no, always, it still runs on "these damn idiots"


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## Kalmor (Jun 15, 2014)

Verin Asper said:


> no, always, it still runs on "these damn idiots"


To an extent. I feel that attitude is getting less and less common around these parts.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 15, 2014)

Kalmor said:


> To an extent. I feel that attitude is getting less and less common around these parts.


It's about 50/50 now I'd say.


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## Irreverent (Jun 15, 2014)

Carenath said:


> If I recall, the FA forums were an afterthought in the original design run as a seperate entity that doubled up as a communications tool during the frequent outage windows (I'm looking at you, Ironpath). Now as it stands we have two completely different databases with a good number of conflicting IDs so I think introducing a single-sign-on for the forums and the main site would cause more problems than they would solve.



Nothing a little clever coding couldnt fix, but I concede that SSO would be a bit of a PITA to implement between FA and FAF. 

*spraypaints a Bell Canada logo on the sleeping blue dragon* (just for old times sake  )

That said, OP, I find the real reason d'etre for FAF is a place for new users to get their feet wet, before launching into the uncharted world of FA.  Which probably explains why the same 12 or so threads are still going on, after 2 years of absence from the forums.


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