# When are you trying too hard to create a character's personality?



## Aleu (May 22, 2013)

So I'm working on a character's backstory because I'm trying to give him a little bit more depth to him, or rather get a better feel for him. I've been bouncing ideas off of a friend and most of the responses I get are that it's "too cliche"  or I'm "trying too hard". However, when I look at my character, he's pretty flat and predictable to the point of boring. In my opinion, he's borderlining a Mary-Sue.

Now this brings up the question, how do you know if someone is trying too hard to create a character with depth and how do you know if someone isn't really trying at all?

Personally, I see someone trying too hard as one who would give needlessly complex pasts to their character. Not every character needs to have some tragic accident, switch schools every year because their parents move often or they killed someone and bla bla blah.

When I see someone not trying at all, I just see random attributes slapped on and calling it a day. Little to no reaction to much of things, little to no personality or just something made up for absolutely no reason at all.

So yeah, questions for a discussion:
How do you spot the not trying/try-hard people?
Do/did you have issues thinking of a backstory for your character? If you do/did then how/what are/did you do to help combat the issue?


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## Car Fox (May 22, 2013)

I guess one way I can answer this is... as long as the "cliche" being depicted has something original, or different about him, you'll do fine.

I wish I could answer this a little more, but my mind is moving as slow as a turtle.


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## Butters Shikkon (May 22, 2013)

It's tough to really pinpoint. Every story needs a balance. You'll need some complicated characters and some simple ones. My personal fav are the complicatedly simple ones. 

I suppose you can tell an amateur when they start piling on "sparkle dog" qualities. I've seen people try to make people too edgy, yet sensitive...so soft-spoken yet such a badass. 

They'll get better as they read more in my opinion.


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## Aleu (May 22, 2013)

Well of course every story needs a complicated and simple character but I mean even simple characters have a bit more...meat to them I guess and some complicated characters just...need to be toned down.
Overly complicated character example
I ran into a shapeshifter that had the tragic past backstory where his parents died in a fire while he watched. Was kidnapped by some cult and experimented on and somehow became some kind of intersex thing who cried neon tears and somehow ended up getting pregnant with twins.
That is the definition of a clusterfuck try-hard in my opinion.


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## M. LeRenard (May 22, 2013)

I think one of the reasons people don't like the whole 'tragic past, was orphaned as youth, child soldier blah blah blah' type backstories is because it's a horribly cheap play at emotions.  In fact, it's so cheap that it ends up having the opposite effect that you want it to (unless you treat it right in the course of the story of which the character is a part, of course).
In terms of coming up with acceptable characters and backstories... well, there's always realism.  The main character of my novel has a troubled past, right; like, his mother couldn't give two shits about him and his father was never home, he ended up working for a crime syndicate whom he eventually had to blackmail so he could escape their grasp and leave his hometown, and so on.  As a result, he tends to see other people as objects to be used to achieve his goals.  He only makes friendships if he needs something, and once he gets what he needed he has no qualms about simply moving on somewhere else.  He also has no pride or sense of honor, and so he sees things like empathy as tools he can use to gain other peoples' trust.  The only reason anyone likes him is because he's smart enough to know how to not make enemies.
So there's an example of a troubled backstory leading to a character with major psychological issues, which is probably the more legitimate result of such a past.  People generally can buy stuff like that; it may not be completely realistic, but it's realistic enough that it doesn't immediately raise any alarm bells.

I'm curious what some of your ideas were that your friend thought were cliche?  I might be able to guess where he was coming from.


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## Grimfang999 (May 22, 2013)

I dont think a character can necessarilly be too complex, or even if they are complete clichÃ©s. It wholely depends on their story, their world, and how it is revealed. In backstories it has almost become a trope for characters to have horrid pasts, and sometimes, thats fine, but if summerised up it sounds unbelievably predictable. If it is revealed bit at a time, and everything that happens makes sense in context to the reallity they live in, then even the most overcomplecated characters can be good.

Although any time a character is summerised into a backstory or personallity of course they will sound typical or clichÃ©, theres only so many ways you can make a likable character, and I doubt anyone would like an rp character or an author-representing character dispicable, because it would reflect on the person negatively. If people really want good characters with complexity, they need to make them in some way unlikable, while still relatable. And we need to get it into our heads: TRAGIC BACKSTORIES DONT MEAN COMPLEX CHARACTERS PEOPLE.


I guess however since the question is "trying too hard", perhaps you can  say people try to hard if they are making a complex character for the  sake of it without any intended use for said character or their past,  but thats up to them.


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## Aleu (May 22, 2013)

M. LeRenard said:


> I think one of the reasons people don't like the whole 'tragic past, was orphaned as youth, child soldier blah blah blah' type backstories is because it's a horribly cheap play at emotions.  In fact, it's so cheap that it ends up having the opposite effect that you want it to (unless you treat it right in the course of the story of which the character is a part, of course).
> In terms of coming up with acceptable characters and backstories... well, there's always realism.  The main character of my novel has a troubled past, right; like, his mother couldn't give two shits about him and his father was never home, he ended up working for a crime syndicate whom he eventually had to blackmail so he could escape their grasp and leave his hometown, and so on.  As a result, he tends to see other people as objects to be used to achieve his goals.  He only makes friendships if he needs something, and once he gets what he needed he has no qualms about simply moving on somewhere else.  He also has no pride or sense of honor, and so he sees things like empathy as tools he can use to gain other peoples' trust.  The only reason anyone likes him is because he's smart enough to know how to not make enemies.
> So there's an example of a troubled backstory leading to a character with major psychological issues, which is probably the more legitimate result of such a past.  People generally can buy stuff like that; it may not be completely realistic, but it's realistic enough that it doesn't immediately raise any alarm bells.
> 
> I'm curious what some of your ideas were that your friend thought were cliche?  I might be able to guess where he was coming from.


I'm hesitant on talking about my characters because most of my friends are pretty much disinterested in them one reason on another...buut I guess to see from another point of view I'll have to suck it up.

I'm going to try to simplify this as to not create a giant wall o' bullshit.

The character is basically Raphael, the archangel. The story focuses on him being a fallen angel. Originally, he was pretty much banished from Heaven because he prevented Michael from outright killing Lucifer and therefore branded as a traitor. So he had his wings ripped from him and cast out. The original reason behind him protecting Lucifer was because he just doesn't like fighting at all since he's..you know...a healer.
Going back on it, it felt too much of a cop-out. Since he's is one of the four angels in this secret hierarchy I've designed for a later purpose, a powerful ally (given that he's a healer), and quite naive, innocent, and easy to manipulate, I wanted Lucifer to use this to his advantage and lure him into joining his side in the war in Heaven. Though, later, Raphael finds out and backs out at the last minute but it's too late. He's already branded as a traitor by one side and now the other.


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## Car Fox (May 22, 2013)

Another way of thinking about it is to break your character/s down into a character archetype, and deside if you want to change certain traits or not. It helps me build characters, if that says anything.

I'll still post more info about this when it comes to me.


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## M. LeRenard (May 22, 2013)

Aleu said:


> I'm hesitant on talking about my characters because most of my friends are pretty much disinterested in them one reason on another...buut I guess to see from another point of view I'll have to suck it up.
> 
> I'm going to try to simplify this as to not create a giant wall o' bullshit.
> 
> ...



Ohhh.... angels.  Yeah, that's dangerous territory.  That and sexy vampires and any other supernatural type deal that's not just a monster.  The main issue with a character like that is going to be relatability, I think.
Anyway, I'm guessing your friend's reaction was to the idea of a fallen angel character, which honestly has more or less been done to death.  Not that other things haven't, but I think people get tired of stuff like this much quicker simply because it's all in the realm of the perfect, if you know what I mean.  'War in Heaven' is such a distant concept... I'm guessing your friend immediately thought this was going to be some tale about perfect creatures fighting each other in some alien place, which is something that no living person can really relate to on a fundamental level, and hence becomes boring pretty quickly.  It's super grand of scale, so it could easily turn into schlock.
This isn't to say your story is like that, or that the Raphael character is a dullard, but that's got to be the immediate first impression just based on that description, and based on other such stories I've heard of.  I bet you anything, if the character wasn't a fallen angel, but instead just some average flawed Joe from Podunk, your friend wouldn't have said it was cliche.  In fact, I bet your friend would have said it was awesome: Joe Schmoe pisses off both God and Satan somehow and has to go to war in Heaven to rectify it.  You know what I mean?  That right there heavily implies that lots of things can go wrong, which is interesting.  An angel, though, not so much.


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## Car Fox (May 22, 2013)

M. LeRenard said:


> Ohhh.... angels.  Yeah, that's dangerous territory.  That and sexy vampires and any other supernatural type deal that's nÃ ot just a monster.  The main issue with a character like that is going to be relatability, I think.
> Anyway, I'm guessing your friend's reaction was to the idea of a fallen angel character, which honestly has more or less been done to death.  Not that other things haven't, but I think people get tired of stuff like this much quicker simply because it's all in the realm of the perfect, if you know what I mean.  'War in Heaven' is such a distant concept... I'm guessing your friend immediately thought this was going to be some tale about perfect creatures fighting each other in some alien place, which is something that no living person can really relate to on a fundamental level, and hence becomes boring pretty quickly.  It's super grand of scale, so it could easily turn into schlock.
> This isn't to say your story is like that, or that the Raphael character is a dullard, but that's got to be the immediate first impression just based on that description, and based on other such stories I've heard of.  I bet you anything, if the character wasn't a fallen angel, but instead just some average flawed Joe from Podunk, your friend wouldn't have said it was cliche.  In fact, I bet your friend would have said it was awesome: Joe Schmoe pisses off both God and Satan somehow and has to go to war in Heaven to rectify it.  You know what I mean?  That right there heavily implies that lots of things can go wrong, which is interesting.  An angel, though, not so much.



So if I have this right... if the viewer or reader can't relate in any way, including but not limited to sympathy, empathy, or common interest, they get board, and fall asleep, if I can put it that way.


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## Matias (May 22, 2013)

One thing you can think about is the little things. Not everything revolves around major incidents in a characters life. A way to think about it is how does your character react to certain stimulus and why do they do so. Even a badass angel can squirm under the pressures of intense interrogation. Morality, certain ticks and tells, as well as facades and the reasons behind them should help to flesh out your character. But then again... character creation really isn't my thing.


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## Aleu (May 22, 2013)

Yeah I had a feeling that was it.

It makes me kinda mad (and very sad) that this type of thing has been dragged through the mud so much that whenever people hear that buzzword, people shut their minds off. So it's insanely hard to get any sort of critique because people get either offended that their view of angels isn't what they imagine, or just extreme disinterest.
I know the issue is how people can relate so I try to make them actually have flaws (since they obviously do given that, if they were perfect, the war in Heaven wouldn't have happened)...but it's hard getting anyone else to really listen.

Anywayyyyyyyyy
I don't think I'm a try-hard but...you know obvious bias.


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## Dracologist84 (May 27, 2013)

I can give you this clue easy.  Backstory, doesn't matter how complex, how cliche, how mary-sue it is.  Make the character happy.  Oh his parents were killed when he was young right in front of him, but the people that raised him did the best they could and he appreciates, and loves, them for it.

He joined the military and watched his entire squad get wiped out because of an order he gave them.  But he knows that they were great soldiers, honors their families, and learned from his mistakes to better himself and his leadership.

You want to have an original character, have the most cliche thing you can think of and then have him accept it and be happy with it.


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## Zuckerdachs (May 27, 2013)

It is all about relatability, yeah. A reader needs some kind of handhold to be able to settle into the protagonist - at least in the beginning, where they start forming an image and a feel for the character. It could be in how Raphael feels when losing his job (though perhaps not his place in the world, as that's too abstract), or friends, or a lover. Maybe he has to figure out what it is like to be human, since hey, we all feel hella awkward. The conflict should have some element people can accept, even if THAT part is a little general. Maybe that is a place you could work in a little of yourself.

The most interesting way I have seen the fallen angel / war on heaven idea done is in White Wolf's game "Demon: The Fallen." The angels are all manifestations of a concept and therefore think LIKE that concept, but after escaping Hell are forced to possess the bodies of newly dead humans. Because they are in these human shells, they suddenly ARE humans, but they know in the backs of their minds that something isn't quite right. That really plays to the reader because the characters literally start as regular folk in shit situations, and lets them imagine what it'd be like if suddenly they could be something more.


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## Schwimmwagen (May 27, 2013)

Dracologist84 said:


> I can give you this clue easy.  Backstory, doesn't matter how complex, how cliche, how mary-sue it is.  Make the character happy.  Oh his parents were killed when he was young right in front of him, but the people that raised him did the best they could and he appreciates, and loves, them for it.
> 
> He joined the military and watched his entire squad get wiped out because of an order he gave them.  But he knows that they were great soldiers, honors their families, and learned from his mistakes to better himself and his leadership.
> 
> You want to have an original character, have the most cliche thing you can think of and then have him accept it and be happy with it.



I can get behind this, though some of mine are the opposite. They actually have a good standing in life, yet they are miserable.

Which I think is potentially very interesting. But you know, delivery, execution, etc.


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## Dracologist84 (May 29, 2013)

One of the best ways to get around not trying too hard is to just ignore the idea of cliche's.  Even if something is cliche, as long as it's approached in a unique, or interesting, way then it's perfectly ok.  What's most important is that YOU like your character.  It doesn't matter if everyone else does, if you like it, then it's a good character.

I'll give you an example.  I haven't put this character into production, because I have no idea where I would, but still here's the design.  Character concept is a female barbarian white wolf with a massive sword that's been dropped down through generations all the way back from the stone age (so it's a stone sword).  And yes sword passed down through generations is a very cliche thing, actually it's one of the most cliche things you can do with a weapon.  At this point you just start asking questions about the character.

Why does she have a giant stone sword?  Passed down through generations because... she's a descendent of a long line of demons that decided in order to fit in with mortals they needed to ditch their demon powers and put it into one single item.  There you go.

If she's a barbarian, why is she walking around?  Her culture is a monarchy and in order for her to someday take on the alpha position she need to be well traveled.  Tribal laws or something.

Is there anything distinguishing about her that makes her stand out?  No, her originality is in the character, not the character design.  aka, she's unique by how incredibly bland she is.

If her tribe is a monarchy, what's her opinion on males?  Work animals.

It just continues on and on with all of those.  The way to best flesh out a character is to just keep asking questions until you're satisfied with all of the answers.  Another good way to make a well balanced character, and less practiced, is to set up an rp with someone and just play the character.  Usually everything from personality, to backstory comes out when you're in the midst of rping.


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