# Public Donation and Expenditures Log, Please.



## lzeringue (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't mean to be a crap head, nor question the reliability of the admins' expenditures of funds.  However, there are many people who do just that, and honestly, I don't think that their request is unjustified.  In fact, any site that relies on donations in any way, should truly make it's invoices, expenses, and so on, publicly visible.  Otherwise, how do we know that we're not just having our beloved site held at ransom so that the person who owns the account we're donating into, isn't simply looking for a new gadget?  The plain answer to that is WE DON'T.  This isn't a shot at the admins' credibility, only at their extremely unwise choice not to show us that their expenses are legitimate.  I personally, would be TEN TIMES as likely to donate if I could see this stuff... and I think that goes for many, many users on FA.  In fact, I dare say that FA would have no trouble getting it's requisite donations every billing cycle, if we could see 100% proof that our donation was listed on a website somewhere, and that all the money that came out of the account went to legitimate expenses for the website.

FA owners and admins, please legitimize your need for donations.  Show us the broken server, and the invoice for the new one(s).  Show us the bill for your bandwidth, and how much is currently in the account connected with the paypal/ amazon donations.  Show us every last detail... please.  The minute that I see a legitimate, realtime account of all funds going into and out of FA's admins' hands, I have $100 with FA's name on it (money I didn't spend at Anthrocon).  Provided FA actually needs the funds, and I can see it in plain black and white.

Thanks, LZ

Support and other POLITE feedback welcome.


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## LimeyKat (Jul 4, 2008)

Expenses have been posted in the past upon request, but if you're wanting physical photos of a dead metal box, I highly doubt you're going to gain anything from them you haven't already been told.


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## Dragoneer (Jul 4, 2008)

lzeringue said:


> FA owners and admins, please legitimize your need for donations.  Show us the broken server, and the invoice for the new one(s).  Show us the bill for your bandwidth, and how much is currently in the account connected with the paypal/ amazon donations.  Show us every last detail... please.


I'll post those up sometime mid-next week. Right now I'm really busy with FAU stuff and moving at the same time. Come Monday, once we buy the servers and get everything taken care of, I'll be able to settle down and start crunching all the numbers properly.



LimeyKat said:


> Expenses have been posted in the past upon request, but if you're wanting physical photos of a dead metal box, I highly doubt you're going to gain anything from them you haven't already been told.


Correct.  We've made all past donations/expenditures public upon request.


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## lzeringue (Jul 5, 2008)

LimeyKat said:


> Expenses have been posted in the past upon request, but if you're wanting physical photos of a dead metal box, I highly doubt you're going to gain anything from them you haven't already been told.



I realize that, I was kind of writing from the seat of my pants there on that point.  However, I'm hearing outcries of SCAM from everyone and their monkey, so I think that it would be much more reasonable to put it on the table for everyone to see.  It would be much better PR in general.  While I would like to say "It's getting old" to the people who say it's a scam, they have a valid point.  The internet is rife with scams, even from the friendliest of sources.  Heck, just look at all the sob stories we hear from people who want to get more commissions.  There are even people here who have taken commissions, and then attempted to fake their own deaths in order to get out of doing them.


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## Rhainor (Jul 5, 2008)

lzeringue said:


> ...I'm hearing outcries of SCAM from everyone and their monkey,...



Really?  I've seen maybe three of those since the crash.


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## Fuzzypaws (Jul 5, 2008)

S/he _wants_ there to be a scam so s/he can feel better about not donating.


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## LonelyFox (Jul 5, 2008)

seriously... why would people think its a scam, and i agree that they just feel bad for not donating


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## Dragoneer (Jul 5, 2008)

http://forums.furaffinity.net/showpost.php?p=170992&postcount=16

By the by, check the above thread for an example of my record keeping. You'll seem I'm fairly to the penny. And for that matter, a new, updated records keeping chart will be posted within the next week covering most if not all issues.


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## Ceceil Felias (Jul 6, 2008)

LZeringue, this is a bit off-topic, but has there anything you HAVEN'T been a bitch over?

Seriously, I have never seen you NOT bitching or whining about something.

Quit ragging on a staff that's already busy enough as it is. It's getting seriously tiring, and this kind of thing's exactly the reason why I unwatched you.


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## Lobo Roo (Jul 6, 2008)

Considering that they have, indeed, shown the accouting before when asked, and will do so again - please, what was the point of adding one more bullshit complaint to all that they have to deal with? 

If you are really tired of seeing people going "SCAM!!111!" then talk to THEM, about how expenditures have been posted. Don't bitch to the people who are working hard to get everything up and running. If you did, indeed, realize that they had shown expenditures in the past - though *"I was kind of writing from the seat of my pants on that point"* doesn't seem to show that - why did you make this post? If you didn't...WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE THE TIME TO CHECK BEFORE YOU BITCHED?

I kind of agree with Ceceil Felias. I've never seen you not bitching.


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## LimeyKat (Jul 6, 2008)

lzeringue said:


> However, I'm hearing outcries of SCAM from everyone and their monkey


You admitted in another thread that such ideas came from chan board which has several highly vocal users who regularly complain and insult people when money and artwork are involved. Thats kinda what they do. You have to take what people say on those boards with a grain of salt.


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## oCe (Jul 6, 2008)

LimeyKat: You have to take what people say on THESE boards with a grain of salt as well.


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## LimeyKat (Jul 6, 2008)

oCe said:


> LimeyKat: You have to take what people say on THESE boards with a grain of salt as well.


Yes. I know.


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## gliengul (Jul 6, 2008)

lzeringue said:


> In fact, any site that relies on donations in any way, should truly make it's invoices, expenses, and so on, publicly visible.



I support this point, the VCL kept a public budget for years. It kept the scam mongers from flaming the forums.

I also recall that when the staff at VCL started keeping their budget public(and updated) donations tended to keep up with the site costs.


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## Seppel (Jul 7, 2008)

I checked the budget Dragoneer posted. $18,000 is more than twice FA has ever had. (I also don't know what "Monthly Bandwidth" is and why it's income and not payments, but meh.)

$18,000 will go far. Very far. I'm inclined to say that if they get next version of the site (Ferrox? or what I like to call "the version that I hope doesn't have coding issues that can easily grind up a server") running very shortly after the server install, they could easily go about 5 years with no problems, and actually make a profit off the site.

Good luck on that, guys. We're counting on you to help us and yourselves.


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## karoug (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm eager to see how much they spend on booze and prostitutes!


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## Gutierrez (Jul 7, 2008)

karoug said:


> I'm eager to see how much they spend on booze and prostitutes!



After all the collective badgering, whining, and other things.  I figure the admins deserve a little something to calm the nerves.


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## Smokescale (Jul 7, 2008)

This is the first _I_ have heard of any public display of fund allocation but then....well...I kinda sit in my own little world and don't go hunting for it *snickers*

I've never been terribly concerned over how donations and other sources of funding get spent but it's nice to see the staff is willing to keep meticulous records and share them with those who ARE concerned. It just proves that keeping this place running is no easy task, it's like a second job...a second job they aren't getting paid to do.


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## Smokescale (Jul 7, 2008)

The hell? I click on the reply button and it gives me the 30 second rule even though it's my first post in like....ever...

I wait, click again, and there's two posts...

...

...

*cries* The forums don't like me!!! *runs home to his mommy*


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## talakestreal (Jul 7, 2008)

ooh, ooh, I know, they're spending all the money on PORN. Not on prostitutes or alcohol, but on PORN.  Fully and completely joking on that comment though.  NOT BEING SERIOUS.

Seriously, I'm surprised Dragoneer even has time to post comments as much as he does, and be coherent. Right about now, I'd be doing the holy-crap-I've-got-money-out-my-ears dance along with the ooh-I-can-afford-forum-shinies dance and the I'm-going-absolutely-completely-crazy dance.  I don't know how he's keeping up with everything, most other people would be a complete mess. 

While I do want to know how much was raised (wow, the power of furries united, we really should all do that again, for another worthy cause), I'm absolutely patient.  

When he has time to think, I'm sure we'll see all the lovely things he'll get with that money.  

Some folks will take any excuse to make drama or to produce a scam where there is none. BAH on you, I say.  Patience is a very good thing to have, in cases like this.


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## lzeringue (Jul 7, 2008)

Ceceil Felias said:


> LZeringue, this is a bit off-topic, but has there anything you HAVEN'T been a bitch over?
> 
> Seriously, I have never seen you NOT bitching or whining about something.
> 
> Quit ragging on a staff that's already busy enough as it is. It's getting seriously tiring, and this kind of thing's exactly the reason why I unwatched you.


You didn't unwatch me, and you know it.  I banned you from making comments on my user page.  Stop trying to make a butthurt attack on me through the forums, unless you're TRYING to amuse me.  Heh heh.  Do you have an ED entry yet?  Coz if you don't that'd be an awful shame.  They're missing out on so many lulz.  You're like a drama queen extraordinaire.  



LimeyKat said:


> You admitted in another thread that such ideas came from chan board which has several highly vocal users who regularly complain and insult people when money and artwork are involved. Thats kinda what they do. You have to take what people say on those boards with a grain of salt.



No, actually it's not just the chan boards.  I'm also seeing a lot of skeptical comments out of my friends via AIM, MSN, and other private conversations.  I simply pointed to the chan boards, because they're the only place this kind of thing gets said publicly.  The vast majority of furries are great at speaking their minds anonymously, or just to their friends, but very, very few have the balls to step up and request this kinda thing.



gliengul said:


> I support this point, the VCL kept a public budget for years. It kept the scam mongers from flaming the forums.
> 
> I also recall that when the staff at VCL started keeping their budget public(and updated) donations tended to keep up with the site costs.



Thanks for the support.    That's what I'm talking about.  There's just no good reason not to do it!  The people who were donating are going to continue to donate, and those who were not donating because they're skeptical about the money usage, will be more inclined to do so.  That includes myself.  I'm not saying that Dragoneer has new rims or anything, but I balance the money between my partner and myself, and I also used to do the books for a small dairy company.  Budgeting- of anything- is something that needs to be triple-checked and kept careful tabs on, in a best case scenario.  I mean, the dairy company, when I got there and started doing their books, was losing money simply because this one truck driver refused to use a calculator, and was shorting himself on delivery bills... stuff like that happens.

...Now who was it that said I wanted this to be a scam?  That's just silly.  If I wanted this to be a scam, I wouldn't make posts like this.    I mean what if they disprove me?  I'd feel pretty dumb if that were the case.


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## Armaetus (Jul 7, 2008)

Drago is moving AGAIN? :O


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## LonelyFox (Jul 7, 2008)

karoug said:


> I'm eager to see how much they spend on booze and prostitutes!



i have a bet on $1263.84  

can never get too much of that! >.<


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## cesarin (Jul 7, 2008)

lzeringue said:


> No, actually it's not just the chan boards. * I'm also seeing a lot of skeptical comments out of my friends via AIM, MSN, and other private conversations.*  I simply pointed to the chan boards, because they're the only place this kind of thing gets said publicly.  The vast majority of furries are great at speaking their minds anonymously, or just to their friends, but very, very few have the balls to step up and request this kinda thing.


considering your behavior, id actually say " my imaginary friends..."

also, nice to see you're actually harassing  ceceil by treating him/her with a ED page


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## blade (Jul 7, 2008)

Oi, let's reign it in please.


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## Dragoneer (Jul 7, 2008)

LonelyFox said:


> i have a bet on $1263.84
> 
> can never get too much of that! >.<


Sir, I do believe you underestimate just how much of a cheap drunk I actually am.


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## AlexInsane (Jul 7, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> Sir, I do believe you underestimate just how much of a cheap drunk I actually am.



Damn right he did. He actually thinks you pay for your alcohol.

I know for a fact that you steal from bums and hold up liquor stores.


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## Eevee (Jul 8, 2008)

karoug said:


> I'm eager to see how much they spend on booze and prostitutes!


not _nearly_ enough


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## uncia (Jul 11, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> I'll post those up sometime mid-next week. Right now I'm really busy with FAU stuff and moving at the same time. Come Monday, once we buy the servers and get everything taken care of, I'll be able to settle down and start crunching all the numbers properly.


_*bump*_


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## Dragoneer (Jul 12, 2008)

Note: I have all the Paypal info, but Amazon is glitching once again and I can only get the last 25 payments... whenever I hit "next page" for more donation info I get an error. Gonna try until Monday, if I don't get anything then, I'll post the Paypal portion of it at least


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## Dragoneer (Jul 12, 2008)




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## Dragoneer (Jul 12, 2008)

Thus far we have spent $12,280.61 of donation money. The $75.60 charge was for server rails for the HP.


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## Dragoneer (Jul 12, 2008)

Oh, go figure. I check out Amazon and poof, it's partially working (it's been off and on for months now). I couldn't view any older donations prior to June 1st, so I can't get the original backup server funding data yet. I'll keep trying. Amazon's system is really, REALLY awful.

I got all the donation data from this round though! And here's all the data I have. Please keep in mind Amazon reports "$20" as a donation, but we do not get the full amount. $20 on Amazon's page boils down to:

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]*Payment amount:*[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]$20.00[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Payment Variable Fee[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]$0.58
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Payment Fixed Fee[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]$0.30[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]*
Total amount received:*[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]$19.12[/SIZE][/FONT]

They take roughly the same exact chunk as Paypal. So when all is said and done I'll report the full donations people sent and the full amount we get when all is said and done with. I tend to report the actual amount we get as people tend to get confused if I said "We got $2,000!" vs "We got $1,912!". People tend to wonder where that other $88 went.

Paypal needs to be updated again as some more donations filtered in since the last pull I performed. Right now, I'm about to go driving down to North Carolina...

I'll do another round of checks then post the full totals again, probably tomorrow.


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## theredcatdances (Jul 12, 2008)

not to be the proverbial wet blanket but am I reading right that the bulk of those screenshots are tenative orders/quotes - I'm seeing spots that show 'once your order is complete' or 'sales quotation'; will those change once the c.cards go through or the items are prepped for shipping?

Also, are all componets scheduled to be shiped around the same time, the 24th, or will some be later then that?


Great uses of the donations and thanks for the updates!!


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## uncia (Jul 12, 2008)

Thanks for the dumps & copies, 'far. 
The 31 cent charge on the 49 cent donation got a smile. It's the thought that counts, no? 

Yak had already sent links for the hardware, albeit at higher prices vs. the reseller(?) invoice for the SUN; http://yak.furaffinity.net/pages/sun_www.htm . No three year hardware-only support on that one now? (Reasonable discount, anyhow, even if so).
Looks like similar on the HP, at a guess.

Might be a bit pushed for the level of accounting LZ was asking for for their $100 top-up donation, but can but hope. _*looks over*_
You've relinked the only time (afaik) in the past 1 1/2 years where the updated financial spreadsheets were disclosed: is that the first time Amazon's history has been noted to work only partially, or is that a permanent issue? Records up to May 2008 shouldn't have been subject to such (generous ) floods, anyhow, so hopefully complete for those previous months and no need to rebaseline again.

Safe journey, 
David.


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## TakeWalker (Jul 12, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> They take roughly the same exact chunk as Paypal. So when all is said and done I'll report the full donations people sent and the full amount we get when all is said and done with. I tend to report the actual amount we get as people tend to get confused if I said "We got $2,000!" vs "We got $1,912!". People tend to wonder where that other $82 went.



Not to mention that final $6. <.<


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## Seppel (Jul 12, 2008)

TakeWalker said:


> Not to mention that final $6. <.<



Math is hard.


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## Fuzzypaws (Jul 12, 2008)

If you're getting the Sun from a reseller does that mean you don't have a warranty on it?  What about on the HP?


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## Dragoneer (Jul 13, 2008)

TakeWalker said:


> Not to mention that final $6. <.<


Blah. I wrote all that in a rush to get out the door... had to drive down to North Carolina. =P


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## pikachu_electricmouse (Jul 13, 2008)

I find that search for "hmo furry artist" most intriguing.

But if it were me, I would mixed it up a bit, with things like "kiwi flavored body lubricant" and "victorian era electrical stimulation device". :3


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## TakeWalker (Jul 13, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> Blah. I wrote all that in a rush to get out the door... had to drive down to North Carolina. =P



A likely story! D: Conspiracy! You spent it on blow and hookers!

...Very cheap hookers. :| We expect you to have higher standards, you know.


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## uncia (Jul 16, 2008)

(7/12)


Dragoneer said:


> I'll do another round of checks then post the full totals again, probably tomorrow.


_*bump*_ (sry...)


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## Daddy Ducky BE (Jul 17, 2008)

Yes, a new total on Amazon AND PayPal would be interesting. _*is urging to fill the latest total into the FA article on WikiFur, the latest figures there dating from the 7th*_


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 17, 2008)

While a new total would be nice, keep in mind that the servers and accompanying hardware were ordered at an X date and that total I would think would be more relevant than a full current total.

You'd have to Calculate the Totals from Both Paypal and Amazon on the date the servers were ordered, minus transaction fees from both sites.

Then, you'd have to show a different budget after the servers were ordered after that date. Simply because the money they had was the money spent on the servers, unless it was "overspent" (where he put in money at that date with his own to cover full costs),  then the rest of the money is put back in after that time to cover that amount.

Shipping costs, then taxes on the purchase.


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## pikachu_electricmouse (Jul 17, 2008)

I wish folks would stop being so anal about where the money is going.  The guy's been funding this site largely out of his own pocket for years now.  If he wants to spend the few bucks I tossed his way on several boxes of the finest cheap liquor money can buy, I say great!


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## karoug (Jul 17, 2008)

pikachu_electricmouse said:


> I wish folks would stop being so anal about where the money is going. The guy's been funding this site largely out of his own pocket for years now. If he wants to spend the few bucks I tossed his way on several boxes of the finest cheap liquor money can buy, I say great!



I want to see Dragoneer drunk on Wild Irish Rose or Thunderbird! Maybe he can get some of those Cisco wine coolers in the mix. :razz:


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## Dragoneer (Jul 17, 2008)

karoug said:


> I want to see Dragoneer drunk on Wild Irish Rose or Thunderbird! Maybe he can get some of those Cisco wine coolers in the mix. :razz:


Oh, dude. You will NEVER catch me drinking that shit. I may be a drunk, but I'm an upper-middle class alcoholic. Long Islands, Hurricanes, Jolly Ranchers (yes) and other deliciously faggy drinks.


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## AlexInsane (Jul 18, 2008)

Oh Dragoneer, I can see you in some seedy little bar with a bunch of Mexicans, yelling "Mis perras, donde son ellas?!".

Then you'd stand up on the bar and start stripping. <3


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## Daddy Ducky BE (Jul 18, 2008)

Gee, I wonder why nobody has spotted this yet in Dragoneer's post! 

Maybe this is where all the money will end up?


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## Dragon-lover (Jul 18, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> Oh, dude. You will NEVER catch me drinking that shit. I may be a drunk, but I'm an upper-middle class alcoholic. Long Islands, Hurricanes, Jolly Ranchers (yes) and other deliciously faggy drinks.


 
Import some Fosters or VB (and me) buy a BBQ and a few Snags And i'll show you how us Aussie's party... and get down.


YOU'll BECOME A MAN....


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## karoug (Jul 18, 2008)

What the hell, just put booze and prostitutes under "other". We'll know what it means.


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## Seppel (Jul 19, 2008)

Daddy Ducky BE said:


> Gee, I wonder why nobody has spotted this yet in Dragoneer's post!
> 
> Maybe this is where all the money will end up?



First thing that comes to mind is Holly Marie Ogburn.


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## karoug (Jul 19, 2008)

Seppel said:


> First thing that comes to mind is Holly Marie Ogburn.



He was checking to see if anyone offers health insurance to furry artists.


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## pikachu_electricmouse (Jul 19, 2008)

karoug said:


> He was checking to see if anyone offers health insurance to furry artists.



Oh no, I'm sure he was looking for gay furry artists but made a typo. :3


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## JTur (Aug 1, 2008)

No, no!  Cable Management Arms!  HISSS!  HISSSSS!  Those things are the BANE of heat and proper cable management in Data Centers throughout the world.  EVIL.  I give clients the evil eye when they break out those things and ask if we'll mount them (Short answer: no, unless you whine to your SAM).

Please tell me those things won't be used 



Fuzzypaws said:


> If you're getting the Sun from a reseller does that mean you don't have a warranty on it?  What about on the HP?



CDW is an authorized reseller of Sun Equipment, so they still get the warranty from Sun.  I think they do HP as well (almost 100% sure), but I don't think it matters since the HP Server was returned (It'd be really, _really_ nice if HP redesigned their rails...)?


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## TakeWalker (Aug 1, 2008)

Has this thread run its course, or do some of us still believe Dragoneer and company are a bunch of horrible scammers?


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## Winterbeast (Aug 1, 2008)

No. I want to see a bottle of Bailey's sitting on top of Trogfur. then we will know the money was well spent.


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## Akkeresu (Aug 1, 2008)

JTur said:


> No, no!  Cable Management Arms!  HISSS!  HISSSSS!  Those things are the BANE of heat and proper cable management in Data Centers throughout the world.  EVIL.



You've piqued my intrest, and to go off topic for just two responses.

What is the right way to cable any type of situation, in the sense of keeping it neat and orderly?


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## JTur (Aug 1, 2008)

Akkeresu said:


> You've piqued my intrest, and to go off topic for just two responses.
> 
> What is the right way to cable any type of situation, in the sense of keeping it neat and orderly?



Each Data Center tends to have its own standards of cabling, but the way I do it is a combination of 2 & 3ft power cables, and using custom cable lengths for networking cable or bundling the excess in a loop.  Power cables should be kept short with power distributed evenly between the power strips on either side, appropriately labeled with the device name and PSU socket.  No cabels should be ran through loops or other cable runs, making sure you can remove any cable without disrupting the others.

Vertical runs should be made through the rails or between the PSU and rail itself, so long as it doesn't obscure the universal mounting holes of the rack (so you can mount other devices).  Finally, cable runs should be limited to the RUs of the devices in question, but should be far enough back and away from fans so as not to hinder airflow.

It *is* possible  Unfortunately, server manufacturers tend to ship their devices with six foot power cords, designed to be used with the cable management arms.  My idea is, if a 1U, half-length switch doesn't need a cable management arm, then why would a server with half as many ports?


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## Akkeresu (Aug 1, 2008)

JTur said:


> Each Data Center tends to have its own standards of cabling, but the way I do it is a combination of 2 & 3ft power cables, and using custom cable lengths for networking cable or bundling the excess in a loop.  Power cables should be kept short with power distributed evenly between the power strips on either side, appropriately labeled with the device name and PSU socket.  No cabels should be ran through loops or other cable runs, making sure you can remove any cable without disrupting the others.
> 
> Vertical runs should be made through the rails or between the PSU and rail itself, so long as it doesn't obscure the universal mounting holes of the rack (so you can mount other devices).  Finally, cable runs should be limited to the RUs of the devices in question, but should be far enough back and away from fans so as not to hinder airflow.
> 
> It *is* possible  Unfortunately, server manufacturers tend to ship their devices with six foot power cords, designed to be used with the cable management arms.  My idea is, if a 1U, half-length switch doesn't need a cable management arm, then why would a server with half as many ports?



Aha. Makes sense. 

I had to ask because, as a Computer Technician and Networking specialist in training, I always want to learn more.  My CCNA 1 TCS was a Structured Cabling Project, and it was rather hellish, resulting in a nervous breakdown on my part near the end while trying to relax, and I still managed to get one of the top grades of the class.

Anyways, to make up for the off-topic-ness, I do thank the staff for posting the logs, since it gives a good, visible idea of where everything goes.


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