# Female protagonists in (mainstream) games



## quoting_mungo (Dec 23, 2018)

This was getting off-topic for the thread it originated in, so on reflection I decided to start a new thread in a more appropriate subforum.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Also, if having a woman in a game is a political agenda, then I have some bad news for you about Metroid.
> 
> Women want shooters. Women want female characters in shooters. The market isn't going to eternally ignore that demographic just so gaming can keep being a boys club.


I mean, I think it's pretty naive to think that women (or any demographic) will or won't play your game based on the sex/gender of the protagonist. Hell, my experience suggests that a lot of girl gamers will be the first to eat you alive if you have a female protagonist but not in a way they approve of. Honestly the safer option may be not to bother. 

But the whole... caring about the sex/gender of the protagonist thing seems to be a modern development. I don't seem to recall Lara Croft (not "Lars Craft" thank you, autocorrect) or... I think her name was Jade, in the game where you had a camera as a significant mechanic? receiving pushback for having tits. The whole thing looks more than anything like a reflection of 1) assumptions on devs' parts and 2) male devs designing characters that are like them but more heroic. 

It's not political. If anything, _if_ more big-studio games are being released with female protagonists, that's probably more a reflection of companies realizing that male gamers aren't afraid to spend the time it takes to complete the game staring at a shapely lady-ass.


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## Fiorabeast (Dec 23, 2018)

Honestly, it's more the fact that a LOT of these women characters are written, as well as designed, for the straight, male consumers in mind then actually thinking about how to write a woman more realistically.
Like, Lara Croft while awesome, I have to criticize the fact that her attire is just NOT suitable for ruin and jungle exploration because in a setting like that,  you get scratched up by certain plants, or those pesky insects and creatures that hold the deadliest venom are going to end your life if you get bitten with your skin hanging out. 
It's the same thing with women characters in Soul Caliber for example, who wear stuff only to titillate male consumers and in reality would be dead in one hit because their armor is NOT suitable for combat and does not protect them. Not to mention most are half-naked! Yet a LOT of male characters get to be covered head to toe in clothing and armor, and RARELY are portrayed going around in a bikini-thong and being sexy for us women consumers of games and such!

Another thing is, most of the designed women characters are SKINNY and have this un-achievable beauty standards. We NEVER get to have say, a plus-sized woman as the protagonist in her own game or show, where she is NOT the butt of the joke, her weight and looks shamed, and written to show how cool she is, because we have these fat-shamers and narrowminded guys who think only ONE kind of woman should inhabit the media world.
It's why as an artist, I'm kind of critical to that because it's a 'been there, done that' design of woman aspect I hate: Men get to have different shapes and looks and personalities, but women characters are to be ONLY designed to be skinny, tits and ass, and only ONE personality. (Though, both suffer also from pale-skin is the standard syndrome also).
As a women myself, I do care because if a woman can do cool things but is written to be relatable to us (and actually dressed sensibly to the situation and environment involved) in a video game, as well as getting away from the boring standard, then it's money well spent. If not, then that money will go towards other things.


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## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2018)

The large majority of people don't care about the gender of the protagonist. A good story is a good story and is what people want and care for.

A couple of games with female protagonists:
Tomb Raider
Metroid
Resident Evil
Nier Automata
Bayonetta

Besides, you have games with character creation tools. Create the character of your dreams. 

However, if you intend to market towards a demographic, you don't market towards a minority, you market towards the majority. It's basic marketing 101. 

Gaming will always be a "boys club" due to men and women in general having different interests/tastes, and it's not something you can force.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

I can honestly say the gender of Warframes does effect my preference of frames.

Up until the game which shall not be named tanked the industry, gaming often catered to both male and female demographics. Ms. Pacman was a thing, marketing to the new working woman, at a time when sexism was rampant in other industries. Female game developers were not uncommon. And many of the same conversations about sexism in gaming we are having today where happening back then, but never induced the same butthurt rage in gamers.

After the game industry effectively died, Nintendo had to change its marketing tactics from the old ways in rebirthing the industry. Gaming had to be marketed as a toy for kids. At that time in history, the toy isle had a clear pink and blue devide, and Nintendo chose blue. Ever since then, the concept of gaming as a male past-time had been established, but that view of gaming has degraded as games have advanced from mere toys, to a (somewhat) respected artform. More women are enjoying games, and many now want to play first person shooters. My Sister and I used to constantly fight over Call of Duty time, though I was more commited due to being introverted as hell at the time.

People want to identify with characters in media they consume, and it's just plain harder to identify with someone of a drastically different gender. But they don't want to be relegated to stereotypes. Women are no different in this regard, so games with feminine characters that aren't sexualized to the point of absurdity are a big draw, especially if those characters kick ass. The recent Tomb raider games go over well with female demographics for example.

A protagonist is supposed to serve as a surrogate for the player, some being blank slates. That surrogate being a different gender creates disconnect, especially if a dash of sexist bullshit is thrown into the game. And women do want to connect with their protagonists on a level that men enjoy as the norm.

But any move in that direction is met with insane pushback from the gaming community, because gamers are used to gaming being a male activity. This percieved invasion of the male space is the same as in every other "invasion" of the past; be it films, the sciences, the work place, political office, and even suffrage. Men freak the fuck out, damn and damn women existing in their space as a toxic political agenda, often with apocalyptic overtones. The same shit was said when women asked for the vote, when they asked to work, etc.

The reactionism of the gaming community is relentless, to the point anyone opposing it openly and powerfully has had to face death threats, harassment, doxxing, etc. Truth be told, there is more sexism in the gaming community than the games they enjoy, often to the point of absurdity. And so long as that community continues to be toxic, and continues to rally around the kind of people that go on to help build the alt-right, the medium will try to remain somewhat stunted and exclusionary. But as with the aforementioned bastions of male privileges, society will move on and find something else for men to complain about being tainted by women.


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## David Drake (Dec 23, 2018)

I think I avoided falling into that trap because I always wanted to play games as characters different from me as possible for the escapism (usually funny animals and the like). So in, say, RPGs and whatnot I was always drawn to playing as the female/having women in the party for the novelty of it and a chance to be different. 

And while I am exclusively attracted to women and have a very...healthy interest let's say...it was never really about "rather look at a nice female butt all day," though I did use it as justification when I was young and stupid and called out by younger, stupider people. I had no trouble identifying with characters who looked wholly different from me or slipping into their skins. It's to the point now that 9 times out of 10 I'll pick a female avatar by default in a game that allows it, just because that's what makes it fun for me.

What people need to understand is that tropes are not sexist in a vacuum. For example, having to save a damsel in distress is not in itself sexist. What is sexist is damsel in distress being the default, being the norm, being expected, being so pervasive, and that works with deviations and reversals are so incredibly rare and even then usually played as a joke. THAT'S why we need more games now that do something different - that can be something different. And even if you want to play the tropes straight, you're always going to need a lot more justification and tweak the context and details just enough.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Dec 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> *But any move in that direction is met with insane pushback from the gaming community, because gamers are used to gaming being a male activity. This percieved invasion of the male space is the same as in every other "invasion" of the past; be it films, the sciences, the work place, political office, and even suffrage. Men freak the fuck out, damn and damn women existing in their space as a toxic political agenda, often with apocalyptic overtones. The same shit was said when women asked for the vote, when they asked to work, etc.
> 
> The reactionism of the gaming community is relentless, to the point anyone opposing it openly and powerfully has had to face death threats, harassment, doxxing, etc. Truth be told, there is more sexism in the gaming community than the games they enjoy, often to the point of absurdity. And so long as that community continues to be toxic, and continues to rally around the kind of people that go on to help build the alt-right, the medium will try to remain somewhat stunted and exclusionary. But as with the aforementioned bastions of male privileges, society will move on and find something else for men to complain about being tainted by women.*


Either that or men do not want to beaten by a lady.....


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Nobody cares as long as the character is written well.

As far as "the male gaze" goes, it's a fact that generally everyone prefers a shapely female form, including other females, straight and gay alike.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Dec 23, 2018)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> Either that or men do not want to beaten by a lady.....



That reminded me of a taunt from Oni, where you play as a female special forces agent. She can sometimes say "You're gonna get beat by a girl". 

I love that game.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Dec 23, 2018)

I'll have to concede the escapism point as well, though there's one anomaly in my case: in games with character creation systems I actually have a tendency to pursue the better VOICE.  Mass Effect (for what amount I played it) is where I noticed it the most - I played a female Shepard because I thought her voice fit the story way better than the male one.  Neverwinter Nights also had a female voice I'd use over and over again for characters.

My main issue with female protagonists is the whole "sexuality for sexuality's sake" thing.  My norm up to this point has been to not play overly sexualized characters when possible.  And yet when presented with a game whose primary protagonist is sexualized but also has more going for her, I won't hesitate - but it'd take something like Bayonetta (that's the weirdest summoning method I've ever seen) or Lollipop Chainsaw (I didn't have a PS3 at the time and haven't gotten around to this, but isn't it basically an updated Buffy?) to make that work.

I do have fewer objections to putting a woman in a scenario usually reserved for men... to a degree.  Hilde (of all the Soul-series female characters, THIS is the one I'd bring up) is what tends to come to mind for me.  Battlefield 5 gets to me mainly because even a short Google search reveals operations that DID involve women that could have also worked as a basis.  (That's as far as I go with that one, we've had enough revisionist talk in other threads.)



Yakamaru said:


> Resident Evil



I'll be the first to admit my view of women in that series was marred a tiny bit by Ashley's behavior in 4, even if it makes sense for her situation.  Jill, Claire, Ada, or Sheva, take your pick and I'll be content playing any of them.  (I haven't played 6 or 7, so if there's any I missed because of that I can't say anything about them yet.)



quoting_mungo said:


> or... I think her name was Jade, in the game where you had a camera as a significant mechanic?



Beyond Good and Evil?  Yeah that was Jade.  There was a lot to take in with the setting of that game, so I could see her not getting any pushback.


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## Rant (Dec 23, 2018)

You can tell what game devs we're thinking when you look at the clothing/armor choices for female characters.

Seriously. Just look.
Even the same set can be vastly different. FF14 Realm Reborn is a good case, the mage sets around lvl 30 are straight up black bikinis. It was so stupid that I used my lvl 20 gear until I was past lvl 40 when I had more choices in the mage gear.

I just want realistic armor, not a battle bikini.



Spoiler: I found more lol


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Samus Aran (Metroid) - Nintendo
Bayonetta (Bayonetta) - Capcom
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)- Square Enix
2B/A2 - (Nier Automata) - Square Enix
Zero - (Drakengard 3) -Square Enix
Jill Sandwich (Resident Evil) - Capcom
Morrigan Aensland (Dark Stalkers) - Capcom
Ivy Valentine ( Soul Calibur) - Namco
Every Protagonist ( Fatal Frame) - Koei Tecmo
Every Protagonist ( Clock Tower) - Human Entertainment
Heather Mason ( Silent Hill 3 ) - Konami
Fiona Belli ( Haunting Grounds ) - Capcom
Amaterasu ( Okami ) - Clover/Capcom/Platinum
Kumatora ( Mother 3 ) - HAL Laboratory 
Every Protagonist after Gen1 ( Pokemon ) - GameFreak  

Mmmmmm, I think i see a pattern here...


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 23, 2018)

People who cram a woman into an historical game where it'd make no logical sense for a girl to be there deserve that stock drop.
Girls, men and heck even sexuality is fine just aslong as it's not forced.
I don't like seeing gays be forced into a game just because "muh, gotta appeal to those 2018 millennials!"
Write the story, and put what is needed, don't put something in just because you have to, the internet will know.



quoting_mungo said:


> It's not political. If anything, _if_ more big-studio games are being released with female protagonists, that's probably more a reflection of companies realizing that male gamers aren't afraid to spend the time it takes to complete the game staring at a shapely lady-ass.


Implying big-studios would take a risk and step outside of their box.
What works work, they won't bother changing much other than graphics most of the time. Take all of the FIFA games and CoD games, repetitive af, but idiots still buy them.

Plus in some cases the female character or even a character being forced with a certain sexuality is just so they don't get raided by SJWs since they don't have balls to defend themselves.

Also, try playing an RPG game, most of them have girls wear little to nothing, yet it has MORE DEFENSE!


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## Rant (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Samus Aran (Metroid) - Nintendo
> Bayonetta (Bayonetta) - Capcom
> Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)- Square Enix
> 2B/A2 - (Nier Automata) - Square Enix
> ...


Don't forget that all but the first Pokemon games had the option of a female character.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> People who cram a woman into an historical game where it'd make no logical sense for a girl to be there deserve that stock drop.
> Girls, men and heck even sexuality is fine just aslong as it's not forced.
> I don't like seeing gays be forced into a game just because "muh, gotta appeal to those 2018 millennials!"
> Write the story, and put what is needed, don't put something in just because you have to, the internet will know.
> ...



Battlefield has never been historicaly accurate, nor claimed to be. That standard was manufactured to justify outrage at a woman protagonist in a typically male game.

Also, historically innacurate to have women in combat my ass;

Soviet Women at War | HistoryNet
www.google.com: World War II's 'Most Dangerous’ Allied Spy Was a Woman With a Wooden Leg
rarehistoricalphotos.com: Simone Segouin, the 18 year old French Resistance fighter, 1944


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## Rant (Dec 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Battlefield has never been historicaly accurate, nor claimed to be. That standard was manufactured to justify outrage at a woman protagonist in a typically male game.
> 
> Also, historically innacurate to have women in combat my ass;
> 
> ...


Don't forget the Russian widow with no combat experience who asked for a tank and fought the Nazis!


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Battlefield has never been historicaly accurate, nor claimed to be. That standard was manufactured to justify outrage at a woman protagonist in a typically male game.
> 
> Also, historically innacurate to have women in combat my ass;
> 
> ...


Fair enough, but I wouldn't of put any form of effort into researching a game I've always despise since the start. Especially since I'd rather watch it crash and burn if anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just went by what I heard, but thanks for the correction.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> Fair enough, but I wouldn't of put any form of effort into researching a game I've always despise since the start. Especially since I'd rather watch it crash and burn if anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> Just went by what I heard, but thanks for the correction.


Oh I want EA to die in a fire for reasons related less to Women in gaming and more to the fact EA is one of the worst offenders for the death of AAA gaming through overmonitization and unrealistic profit goals. Not to mention their atrocious working conditions and the "IP graveyard".


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

> For me, playing a male character is a somewhat dysphoric experience
> 
> Even in games I actively enjoy
> 
> Third person Is easier because I can ogle man butt


One of my friends who is a transgender woman.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Battlefield has never been historicaly accurate, nor claimed to be. That standard was manufactured to justify outrage at a woman protagonist in a typically male game.
> 
> Also, historically innacurate to have women in combat my ass;
> 
> ...



I don't think you understood his point, he is talking about shoving female characters in depictions or real world events where they don't belong.

For example, Battlefield V got a lot of criticism for replacing every norwegian commando that participated in Operation Gunnerside with a single female character. 

They decided to replace real world norwegian heroes with a fictional one instead of using something like what you just posted


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I don't think you understood his point, he is talking about shoving female characters in depictions or real world events where they don't belong.
> 
> For example, Battlefield V got a lot of criticism for replacing every norwegian commando that participated in Operation Gunnerside with a single female character.
> 
> They decided to replace real world norwegian heroes with a fictional one instead of using something like what you just posted


Because Battlefield isn't historical, and doesn't strive to be. It is an over-the-top wild action shooter with bullet drop mechanics and low dps gunplay.

I also don't hear the same rage when american men replace litteraly everyone in Western front operations, or German tanks become magicly invincible despite being anything but. Nobody kvetches about the myth of German technical superiority except the buffs and pedants.

It's also worth noting it was largely Americans doing said bitching about a demographic they would gladly see replaced with American GIs; which is the norm.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Because Battlefield isn't historical, and doesn't strive to be. It is an over-the-top wild action shooter with bullet drop mechanics and low dps gunplay



If Battlefield doesn't strive to be historical maybe they should write their own stories instead of rewriting real world events.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Nobody kvetches about the myth of German technical superiority except the buffs and pedants.



I do, but no one ever listens


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## Pipistrele (Dec 23, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Gaming will always be a "boys club" due to men and women in general having different interests/tastes, and it's not something you can force.


Population of female gamers increased significantly over the years though, and that also correlates with modern devs generally making a better job of creating sympathetic female characters who stand on their own without falling into stereotypical archetypes (or at the very least offering a gender-neutral story where you can pick your gender yourself). It's less about women not enjoying videogames as much as men, and more about men (being a majority in videogame development for a while) making games unenjoyable for women - and with modern generation of developers willing to expand the audience and make complex, non-machoistic stories with their videogames, it's not much of a "boys club" anymore.

That's also why I can't agree with your point of "advertising for majority" - with 49% of the world population being female, suddenly it's not a "minority" but a huge unexplored market with ridiculous monetary potential, and the only thing stopping from seizing said market would be assuming that girls inherently don't like videogames (instead of actually starting making videogames for girls). And honestly, at this point I don't even have any female friends who _don't_ enjoy videogames on some level - heck, my friend's girlfriend wrecked my ass in Dark Souls PvP not too long ago


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> If Battlefield doesn't strive to be historical maybe they should write their own stories instead of rewriting real world events.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Military games set in WWII always use battles and major missions as set pieces. They aren't beholden to historical accuracy. Historical acuracy isn't always fun either.....

Let alone the shit I get up to in Hearts of Iron.....


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## Fallowfox (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I don't think you understood his point, he is talking about shoving female characters in depictions or real world events where they don't belong.
> 
> For example, Battlefield V got a lot of criticism for replacing every norwegian commando that participated in Operation Gunnerside with a single female character.
> 
> They decided to replace real world norwegian heroes with a fictional one instead of using something like what you just posted



What a shame that real heroes weren't anthologised in a video game where teenagers shoot one another for fun. 

What an insult to their grandchildren, who would surely have brimmed with patriotic pride, watching sprites of their grandfathers teabagging the enemy. 


x3


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> What a shame that real heroes weren't anthologised in a video game where teenagers shoot one another for fun.
> 
> What an insult to their grandchildren, who would surely have brimmed with patriotic pride, watching sprites of their grandfathers teabagging the enemy.
> 
> ...


Lets not get too smarmy. I get its hard to shift gears from that other thread though. 

But seriously, WWII media and games are rarely if every accurate, nor do they strive to be. Hence why protagonists always seem to be at big name battles.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I don't think you understood his point, he is talking about shoving female characters in depictions or real world events where they don't belong.
> 
> For example, Battlefield V got a lot of criticism for replacing every norwegian commando that participated in Operation Gunnerside with a single female character.
> 
> They decided to replace real world norwegian heroes with a fictional one instead of using something like what you just posted


I mean I would be fine seeing a woman in the game but a disabled woman?


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I mean I would be fine seeing a woman in the game but a disabled woman?
> 
> 
> View attachment 50492


If the game is marketed as 'historically accurate,' historically inaccurate things shouldn't be there.
End of story.

If you want to put cyborgs in ancient wars, make a new Timesplitters game.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Fallowfox said:


> What a shame that real heroes weren't anthologised in a video game where teenagers shoot one another for fun.



I know you are trying to act smug but would you use this very same argument when talking about females in games? 

I mean, they are just games where kiddies play pretend. 
Who cares about cool female characters being in games? Only teenagers and kids play those things XDDDD


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## Infrarednexus (Dec 23, 2018)

My favorite female protagonist was Athena from the Borderlands series. I used her to beat the game for the first time and I enjoyed every minute of it. She was tough, fearless, and deadly. She was a trained assassin in her early years and was the top of her ranks. She carries with her a high tech sword for cutting and an energy shield that can block anything. She can electrocute things and set people on fire if you give her the right build. She's not someone you want to piss off.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> My favorite female protagonist was Athena from the Borderlands series. I used her to beat the game for the first time and I enjoyed every minute of it. She was tough, fearless, and deadly. She was a trained assassin in her early years and was the top of her ranks. She carries with her a high tech sword for cutting and an energy shield that can block anything. She can electrocute things and set people on fire if you give her the right build. She's not someone you want to piss off.


Gaige is best girl ;D


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I mean I would be fine seeing a woman in the game but a disabled woman?
> 
> 
> View attachment 50492



I don't know dude, Keria was pretty darn k00l


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I don't know dude, Keria was pretty darn k00l
> View attachment 50494


Pretty sure her feats greatly outweigh her flaws.


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## Infrarednexus (Dec 23, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Gaige is best girl ;D


She's good. I'll give her that. She may be a little girl but that robot of hers will wipe the smirk off any bad guy's face.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> She's good. I'll give her that. She may be a little girl but that robot of hers will wipe the smirk off any bad guy's face.


She's canonically an adult at 18.
She was a high school senior when the events occurred that led up to her part in the game.


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## Infrarednexus (Dec 23, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> She's canonically an adult at 18.
> She was a high school senior when the events occurred that led up to her part in the game.


Holy crap I thought all this time she was just a kid.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> View attachment 50495



Let's try not to derail the thread with forum drama



Prometheus_Fox said:


> Pretty sure her feats greatly outweigh her flaws.



Certainly, there hasn't been a better SW character since her, she is the only one that points out the flaws in both sides of the force and actually tries to do something about it


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Holy crap I thought all this time she was just a kid.


She has some pretty spicy idle quotes, some of which are sexual in nature.

I doubt they'd allow a child character to say such things in a game lol


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## Rant (Dec 23, 2018)




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## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Population of female gamers increased significantly over the years though, and that also correlates with modern devs generally making a better job of creating sympathetic female characters who stand on their own without falling into stereotypical archetypes (or at the very least offering a gender-neutral story where you can pick your gender yourself). It's less about women not enjoying videogames as much as men, and more about men (being a majority in videogame development for a while) making games unenjoyable for women - and with modern generation of developers willing to expand the audience and make complex, non-machoistic stories with their videogames, it's not much of a "boys club" anymore.
> 
> That's also why I can't agree with your point of "advertising for majority" - with 49% of the world population being female, suddenly it's not a "minority" but a huge unexplored market with ridiculous monetary potential, and the only thing stopping from seizing said market would be assuming that girls inherently don't like videogames (instead of actually starting making videogames for girls). And honestly, at this point I don't even have any female friends who _don't_ enjoy videogames on some level - heck, my friend's girlfriend wrecked my ass in Dark Souls PvP not too long ago


Yes, women are more normal to see in the gaming scene, especially in the past decade. They will however always be a minority as this is a predominantly male scene in general. And we're not going indepth either in terms of genre(s), which specific game(s), timezones, the specs for the system the person have, platform(s), +++.

To the majority however it doesn't matter what demographic a game is "meant" for, as good games will attract people from all over regardless.

U.S. video gamer gender statistics 2018 | Statista

The female to male _*population*_ ratio is around 49%/51%.
The female to male _*gamer*_ ratio is 45%/55%.

Males are still a majority, and it will continue to be this for many years forward. Though quite frankly I'm a little curious on how they worded their questions when it comes to the topic.

Then there's the age distribution.
www.statista.com: U.S. average age of video gamers 2018 | Statistic

Quite frankly I'd love to get a total breakdown of who plays what, what is more popular for all the different ages, genders and demographics and all sorts of other statistics, but you kinda need a Premium subscription for the more interesting statistics. :V

~Edit~
Of course, you are free to market your game to whichever demographic you want. You will also take on whatever consequences of doing so. That includes if the game doesn't sell.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Yes, women are more normal to see in the gaming scene, especially in the past decade. They will however always be a minority as this is a predominantly male scene in general. And we're not going indepth either in terms of genre(s), which specific game(s), timezones, the specs for the system the person have, platform(s), +++.
> 
> To the majority however it doesn't matter what demographic a game is "meant" for, as good games will attract people from all over regardless.
> 
> ...



The chart doesn’t contain info about age or platform but I hope it's still useful to you.

_"Here’s a chart of all the genre group averages in descending order. The percentages listed refer to the proportion of gamers within each genre that are female. So for example, the 69% for Match 3 games means that of the gamers who mentioned a Match 3 game in the data, 69% of them were female. The 69% does NOT mean that 69% of female gamers play Match 3 games"_
_
"It bears pointing out that most gamers play a variety of games across genres, and a high participation rate in the chart doesn’t mean that gamers (whether male or female) only play that genre"



 
_
Source: archive.is: Beyond 50/50: Breaking Down The Percentage of Female Gamers By Genre


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## Yakamaru (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> The chart doesn’t contain info about age or platform but I hope it's still useful to you.
> 
> _"Here’s a chart of all the genre group averages in descending order. The percentages listed refer to the proportion of gamers within each genre that are female. So for example, the 69% for Match 3 games means that of the gamers who mentioned a Match 3 game in the data, 69% of them were female. The 69% does NOT mean that 69% of female gamers play Match 3 games"
> 
> ...


Holy shit. This is what I was looking for on that front. Thanks a bunch, mate!


----------



## Pipistrele (Dec 23, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Yes, women are more normal to see in the gaming scene, especially in the past decade. They will however always be a minority as this is a predominantly male scene in general. And we're not going indepth either in terms of genre(s), which specific game(s), timezones, the specs for the system the person have, platform(s), +++.
> 
> To the majority however it doesn't matter what demographic a game is "meant" for, as good games will attract people from all over regardless.
> 
> ...


I'll be blunt, saying that gaming scene is predominantly male because 10% more males play videogames is a pretty flimsy ground for the argument. I mean, the fact that there's almost 50% female gamers on Steam in a way proves that it's not a predominantly male scene - you're killing your own point in a way.

And again, I still don't get the talk about "consequences" and "target audiences", considering a solid amount of this year's top selling games are pretty female-friendly, yet it didn't restrict those from becoming bestsellers. In fact, it's actually beneficial for sales to try and include something for both genders to enjoy and immerse in, since you open yourself to both demographics that way - there are some overreactive weirdos who will complain about women being in a military game or something, but those are arguably in minority by itself, at least if judging by the fact that actual sales don't suffer from it.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Dec 23, 2018)

I was super disappointed when one of my textbooks when I took a uni course about video games mentioned The Sims as "the type of game women play" - if random people on the Internet make shitty generalizations about what genres they think female gamers play, whatever, but presenting it as a Known Truth (not sourced, either, unlike most other information) in a nonfiction book was shitty.

Anyway, the position I'm trying to put forward here is mostly that to the best of my knowledge guy gamers didn't bitch like hell about Lara Croft being female when the Tomb Raider franchise was established, so, like... to me it seems like female characters are rubbing more people the wrong way today than they used to. Which is silly. Are male gamers feeling threatened? Does the smacktalking in voice channels when gaming online focusing so much on emasculating other (male) gamers mean it's harder to accept playing a non-manly character?

Games I've played and enjoyed which were decried as SO SEXIST in a LiveJournal community for female gamers I used to follow:
Super Princess Peach
X-Blades
Onechanbara
Two of the three I actually discovered BECAUSE of the bitching about them in that community. And, okay, especially the action figure that comes with the Collector's Edition of X-Blades is kinda wearing dental floss. It's still a fun game. Okay, the bikini zombie slaying in Onechanbara is ridiculous... but so are all slice-through-hordes-of-enemies games, to some degree. It's still a good addition to that genre.

(Hell, the female FFX characters were so popular they got their own bloody game!)



Yakamaru said:


> Gaming will always be a "boys club" due to men and women in general having different interests/tastes, and it's not something you can force.


That's frankly bullshit. It's the kind of thing that made my parents tell me at 18 that I was "too old" for video games, while they had no issues with my younger brothers being into games at 20+, and my father still games at like 50+. I don't believe in the "if women don't play games we need to make different games that appeal more to that demographic" crap some people from the gaming community spew (like, beyond not being stupidly insensitive; I'm more talking about the notion that we can find some Holy Grail game mechanic that will draw women who never enjoyed video games to gaming), but the thing holding women back from equal engagement in games at this point? Is mostly the preconceived notion that girls don't play games, partnered with the inadequate social graces of a large swath of the gaming community.



Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> People want to identify with characters in media they consume, and it's just plain harder to identify with someone of a drastically different gender. But they don't want to be relegated to stereotypes. Women are no different in this regard, so games with feminine characters that aren't sexualized to the point of absurdity are a big draw, especially if those characters kick ass. The recent Tomb raider games go over well with female demographics for example.


I think the notion that you need same-sex/gender characters to be able to identify with them is a pretty new invention. I've seen it being applied to children's books as well, but I never enjoyed stories less for having male protagonists when I was little. Being concerned that people are able to relate to the protagonists of whatever media you consume isn't in itself bad, but I don't think sex/gender is the main point that makes a character relatable or not.



David Drake said:


> What is sexist is damsel in distress being the default, being the norm, being expected, being so pervasive, and that works with deviations and reversals are so incredibly rare and even then usually played as a joke. THAT'S why we need more games now that do something different - that can be something different. And even if you want to play the tropes straight, you're always going to need a lot more justification and tweak the context and details just enough.


If you want a great role reversal on the damsel in distress trope, try the PS2 game Primal. I have no idea why that game didn't make more of a splash than it did, because it's pretty damn brilliant.

Also, @Mikazuki Marazhu please just ignore the thread instead of shitposting and/or dramamongering in it. If you want to join in with a reasoned argument that's fine, but trying to derail it is just rude.


----------



## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> I mean, the fact that there's almost 50% female gamers on Steam proves that it's not a predominantly male scene



But Steam is not the majority of the industry, you still have mobile gameing, phones, consoles, emulators etc.

And even still, not every PC game is played through Steam, you also have the new Epic store, Origin, Bethesda store, GOG, Windows store and even torrenting/pirating sites



Pipistrele said:


> considering a solid amount of this year's top selling games are pretty female-friendly, yet it didn't restrict those from becoming bestsellers



Not trying to be a smart ass but what do you mean by "female-friendly"?

So far the best selling games have been:

Red Dead Redemption 2
Monster Hunter World
God Of War
Spider Man
Soul Calibur Vl
Pokemon Let's Go Pikachu
FIFA (Unfortunately)

I haven't heard anything about these games going out of their way to be more friendly towards female players in particular.

Females don't need big companies to make games friendlier for them.
As the song says, "Girls just want to have fun"


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## Pipistrele (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> But Steam is not the majority of the industry, you still have mobile gameing, phones, consoles, emulators etc.
> 
> And even still, not every PC game is played through Steam, you also have the new Epic store, Origin, Bethesda store, GOG, Windows store and even torrenting/pirating sites


I mean, I'm not the one to make the argument based on such statistics in the first place - I just pointed out how silly it actually sounds if you try to put it together.



> Not trying to be a smart ass but what do you mean by "female-friendly"?


Having well-written female characters (Breath of the Wild), ability to choose gender for your characters (MH:W, FIFA), having a vast roster of characters for any gender (Soul Calibur VI, Smash Bros Ultimate), generally having a family friendly nature without leaning to any gender in particular (Mario Odyssey, Pokemon: Let's Go), etc. My point is that the concept of "appealing to gender" is kinda silly, and you don't have to sacrifice your marketability to make games that take women in consideration - the whole "games are mostly played by men so you need to appeal to men" talk is frankly absurd to me.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> Females don't need big companies to make games friendlier for them.


Bethesda disagrees lol


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 23, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Having well-written female characters (Breath of the Wild), ability to choose gender for your characters (MH:W, FIFA), having a vast roster of characters for any gender (Soul Calibur VI, Smash Bros Ultimate), generally having a family friendly nature without leaning to any gender in particular (Mario Odyssey, Pokemon: Let's Go), etc. My point is that the concept of "appealing to gender" is kinda silly, and you don't have to sacrifice your marketability to make games that take women in consideration - the whole "games are mostly played by men so you need to appeal to men" talk is frankly absurd to me.



I see your point and i agree but these things just seem to benefit almost every game and gamer, they aren't just female-friendly.

Diverse rosters are a must in every fighting game
Gender selection is almost mandatory in RPGs
Well written characters are a must in every game that wants to tell a story

See what I mean?


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## quoting_mungo (Dec 23, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Having well-written female characters (Breath of the Wild), ability to choose gender for your characters (MH:W, FIFA), having a vast roster of characters for any gender (Soul Calibur VI, Smash Bros Ultimate), generally having a family friendly nature without leaning to any gender in particular (Mario Odyssey, Pokemon: Let's Go), etc. My point is that the concept of "appealing to gender" is kinda silly, and you don't have to sacrifice your marketability to make games that take women in consideration - the whole "games are mostly played by men so you need to appeal to men" talk is frankly absurd to me.


What needs to be considered, ultimately, is less "is this appealing/friendly to men/women/aliens?" and more "is this content hostile to these demographics?" Because men will play female-friendly games. Women will play guy-friendly games. But the percentage of any demographic that will consume any media that is hostile to them is likely very low.

(Hostile involving things like "portraying the demographic very negatively")


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I see your point and i agree but these things just seem to benefit almost every game and gamer, they aren't just female-friendly.
> 
> Diverse rosters are a must in every fighting game
> Gender selection is almost mandatory in RPGs
> ...


Because this exist in the context of a game industry that largely focuses on male characters. Any deviation from that pattern to be more inclusive means having more female characters by the nature of the norm being for character rosters to be a sausage fest. 



quoting_mungo said:


> I was super disappointed when one of my textbooks when I took a uni course about video games mentioned The Sims as "the type of game women play" - if random people on the Internet make shitty generalizations about what genres they think female gamers play, whatever, but presenting it as a Known Truth (not sourced, either, unlike most other information) in a nonfiction book was shitty.
> 
> Anyway, the position I'm trying to put forward here is mostly that to the best of my knowledge guy gamers didn't bitch like hell about Lara Croft being female when the Tomb Raider franchise was established, so, like... to me it seems like female characters are rubbing more people the wrong way today than they used to. Which is silly. Are male gamers feeling threatened? Does the smacktalking in voice channels when gaming online focusing so much on emasculating other (male) gamers mean it's harder to accept playing a non-manly character?
> 
> ...



Gender isn't the only thing that makes characters identifiable, but it plays a role. If given two characters only different in their gender in terms of their story and gameplay, and people will generally prefer to identify with their own gender. Being male or female really is a different experience, and humans would rather identify with those shared dreams and experiences. And the male protagonist is the default overall in the industry, though this is changing an improving. Women don't want every game to have a female protagonist, but they would like to be able to identify with one more often than rarely.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 23, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> What needs to be considered, ultimately, is less "is this appealing/friendly to men/women/aliens?" and more "is this content hostile to these demographics?" Because men will play female-friendly games. Women will play guy-friendly games. But the percentage of any demographic that will consume any media that is hostile to them is likely very low.
> 
> (Hostile involving things like "portraying the demographic very negatively")


This is very true as well.


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## Pipistrele (Dec 23, 2018)

CrookedCroc said:


> I see your point and i agree but these things just seem to benefit almost every game and gamer, they aren't just female-friendly.
> 
> Diverse rosters are a must in every fighting game
> Gender selection is almost mandatory in RPGs
> ...


Point is that they _are_ female-friendly, and a lot of people on both genders play them, which goes against Yakamaru's assumption that making games for someone other than men is a risky and unprofitable endeavor. Whether said female-friendliness is a byproduct of game design or an intentional decision is kinda beside the point.



quoting_mungo said:


> What needs to be considered, ultimately, is less "is this appealing/friendly to men/women/aliens?" and more "is this content hostile to these demographics?" Because men will play female-friendly games. Women will play guy-friendly games. But the percentage of any demographic that will consume any media that is hostile to them is likely very low.
> 
> (Hostile involving things like "portraying the demographic very negatively")


Pretty much? Which is what ticked me off about the wording in the first place, I guess - some weird idea that there's a majority or a minority that affects the market in any way. There was an actual problem with games "not being hostile to women" 20-30 years ago, with "strong dude saving helpless girl" stories remaining a default storytelling template (something even Mario games try to subvert nowadays) and misogynism of Kratos and Duke Nukem being an accepted norm, but situation drastically improved over the years, even if road to where we are now was rocky as heck (that GamerGate disaster for example).


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> misogynism of Kratos and Duke Nukem being an accepted norm


Kratos was brutally insane and Duke Nukem is a parody of what a man shouldn't be, much like ye olde Johnny Bravo from 90's Cartoon Network.
Hell, even Leisure Suit Larry, the most womanizing video game character in my opinion, is depicted as a weaselly, sad, and shallow man.

They were never meant to be characters for people to aspire to be.


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## Pipistrele (Dec 23, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Kratos was brutally insane and Duke Nukem is a parody of what a man shouldn't be, much like ye olde Johnny Bravo from 90's Cartoon Network.
> Hell, even Leisure Suit Larry, the most womanizing video game character in my opinion, is depicted as a weaselly, sad, and shallow man.
> 
> They were never meant to be characters for people to aspire to be.


Duke Nukem was more of an affectionate parody of 80s action heroes - cheeky, but over-competent and succeeding at everyting he does, with his booty-slapping habits being celebrated by the games themselves (Duke Nukem Forever in particular) and encouraged by female characters; so, Johnny Bravo it isn't in my opinion. As of Kratos, there was a plot-related reason to his behavior, but those sex scene QTEs were definitely inserted for player's arousal, rather than some kind of complex character development. Not implying that DN3D and GoW trilogy are bad games, of course, but I'm still glad that industry matured past that poorly tasted stuff at this point.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 23, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> Duke Nukem was more of an affectionate parody of 80s action heroes - cheeky, but over-competent and succeeding at everyting he does, with his booty-slapping habits being celebrated by the games themselves (Duke Nukem Forever in particular) and encouraged by female characters; so, Johnny Bravo it isn't in my opinion. As of Kratos, there was a plot-related reason to his behavior, but those sex scene QTEs were definitely inserted for player's arousal, rather than some kind of complex character development. Not implying that DN3D and GoW trilogy are bad games, of course, but I'm still glad that industry matured past that poorly tasted stuff at this point.


I mean, I suppose I can understand why some people might be put off by such fan-service, but considering the content of the rest of the games, dealing in violent acts including disembowelment and dismemberment, these are quite a bit overshadowed.

The west romanticizes violence and makes sex taboo in the same way that the east more or less does the opposite.

I don't care which a person prefers, but I don't like the concept that the removal of sexual content is the "industry maturing" when ultra-violence is still accepted as it is.


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## Pipistrele (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I mean, I suppose I can understand why some people might be put off by such fan-service, but considering the content of the rest of the games, dealing in violent acts including disembowelment and dismemberment, these are quite a bit overshadowed.
> 
> The west romanticizes violence and makes sex taboo in the same way that the east more or less does the opposite.
> 
> I don't care which a person prefers, but I don't like the concept that the removal of sexual content is the "industry maturing" when ultra-violence is still accepted as it is.



There was a decent debate on difference between gratuitous violence and gratuitous eroticism in media in another thread a while ago actually. If summarizing it, violence is relatively inclusive and is most commonly directed at willing participants regardless of gender or class (which is why games like GTA and Postal 2 turn their pedestrians into comedically unlikeable assholes who are often willing to go gun-ho themselves on slightest provocation), while with sex scenes you need to skew the representation of particular gender in a rather unpleasant way that often enforces some of the ugliest stereotypes. Speaking shortly, it's harder to discriminate with hyper-violence than it is with hyper-eroticism.

As of regional differences, it should be mentioned that Japanese videogames historically did a much better job at representing female characters - like, back when US still indulged in bulky sausage fests and stripper butt-slappings, Japan already made leaps ahead with both inserting non-exaggerated female protags in action games and giving them a respectable treatment in story-driven ones. Which is why I think that industry matured - eroticism is there, but it's just not as juvenile and dumb. Again, not talking about sex appeal in general as much as about poorly tasted and crudely inserted one - there's a lot of difference between campy, joyful hair-babes of _Bayonetta_ and horny, brainless hookers of _God of War/Duke Nukem_ series, and it shouldn't take too much to understand why latter can be much more hostile to female audience than former.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> There was a decent debate on difference between gratuitous violence and gratuitous eroticism in media in another thread a while ago actually. If summarizing it, violence is relatively inclusive and is most commonly directed at willing participants regardless of gender or class (which is why games like GTA and Postal 2 turn their pedestrians into comedically unlikeable assholes who are often willing to go gun-ho themselves on slightest provocation), while with sex scenes you need to skew the representation of particular gender in a rather unpleasant way that often enforces some of the ugliest stereotypes. Speaking shortly, it's harder to discriminate with hyper-violence than it is with hyper-eroticism.
> 
> As of regional differences, it should be mentioned that Japanese videogames historically did a much better job at representing female characters - like, back when US still indulged in bulky sausage fests and stripper butt-slappings, Japan already made leaps ahead with both inserting non-exaggerated female protags in action games and giving them a respectable treatment in story-driven ones. Which is why I think that industry matured - eroticism is there, but it's just not as juvenile and dumb. Again, not talking about sex appeal in general as much as about poorly tasted and crudely inserted one - there's a lot of difference between campy, joyful hair-babes of _Bayonetta_ and horny, brainless hookers of _God of War/Duke Nukem_ series, and it shouldn't take too much to understand why latter can be much more hostile to female audience than former.


Considering women aren't a singularity with one single taste, it is pretty irresponsible to believe that one can speak for the entirety of the female audience anyways.
There are loads of people who rail against Bayonetta's hypersexuality, especially feminists, and considering that Duke Nukem Forever was written by two women shows that some women understand what parody and comedy are.


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

I think the hypersexual aspect of Bayonetta is actually done right and actually adds to the feeling of empowerment rather than the opposite like DoA or Soul Caliber or some other fighting game with scantily clad hoes in bikinis which just... eeeeuugggh.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> I think the hypersexual aspect of Bayonetta is actually done right and actually adds to the feeling of empowerment rather than the opposite like DoA or Soul Caliber or some other fighting game with scantily clad hoes in bikinis which just... eeeeuugggh.


All of the bikini costumes in either game are completely optional and aren't even available straight from the box.


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> All of the bikini costumes in either game are completely optional and aren't even available straight from the box.



Somehow that almost makes it worse. It's like the game is just straight up asking you if you want to be objectified or not, and then asking you to pay for it. Actually that's sort of what Bayonetta does too by even existing. Take your pick as for which game is the better social critique..


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Somehow that almost makes it worse. It's like the game is just straight up asking you if you want to be objectified or not, and then asking you to pay for it. Actually that's sort of what Bayonetta does too by even existing. Take your pick as for which game is the better social critique..


If people can stop trying to censor artforms like this.  The world would be a lot healthier


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Somehow that almost makes it worse. It's like the game is just straight up asking you if you want to be objectified or not, and then asking you to pay for it. Actually that's sort of what Bayonetta does too by even existing. Take your pick as for which game is the better social critique..


You know, real life women wear bikinis.
Women actually *like* wearing them, too.

If you want your girl to be conservative, you can have her be conservative.
If you want her in a string bikini, you can do that, too.

Let's not forget that Soul Calibur has a contortionist leather gimp character in the way of Voldo to mirror Ivy's dominatrix appeal, both of which have more conservative outfits.


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> If people can stop trying to censor artforms like this.  The world would be a lot healthier



I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that but honestly living in the usa has spoiled me because if there's one thing we hate it's censorship, especially when it has to do with art.



Prometheus_Fox said:


> You know, real life women wear bikinis.
> Women actually *like* wearing them, too.
> 
> If you want your girl to be conservative, you can have her be conservative.
> ...



Hey I like that stuff too you won't get any argument from me there..


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that but honestly living in the usa has spoiled me because if there's one thing we hate it's censorship, especially when it has to do with art.


Then stop trying to make game devs conform to your "E for everyone" censorship. .. either a game has brilliant customisation with risqué clothing on both sides or it''s of a set character.   Bikinis are not a bad sexualised thing. It's swim wear. ....  I bet you don't complain about men in shorts with a 6 pack with no shirt on....


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

I guess some guys just don't like a woman who can walk over a man.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

(Not a real promo, btw)
I mean look at our boy Voldo.
Well, less of a boy and more of an undead thrall, but still.

I see no problem with this being here. Not just because I like men (actually if someone were to wear something similar irl, I might be a little uncomfortable)
But afaik, EVERY depiction of Voldo has some form of his (in)famous codpieces, many of which are more grandiose than this one.

Soul Calibur is probably the MOST progressive when it comes to game characters and sexual imagery, considering the CAS mode.
You can put every man in the newest game in tight swimwear and pasties if you want.


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> I guess some guys just don't like a woman who can walk over a man.


No one said anything about that
... are you high right now or something?


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> No one said anything about that
> ... are you high right now or something?



Actually I was just derailing the conversation because it started to get stupid.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> I guess some guys just don't like a woman who can walk over a man.


I used to be good friends with a dominatrix.


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Actually I was just derailing the conversation because it started to get stupid.


 unbelievable


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> (Not a real promo, btw)
> I mean look at our boy Voldo.
> Well, less of a boy and more of an undead thrall, but still.
> 
> ...



I don't see anything wrong with Voldo, he just looks like an average french contortionist


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

Voldo reminds me of the kind of guys I typically like IRL.


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Voldo reminds me of the kind of guys I typically like IRL.


 ironic


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

By the way, check out Ivy's alternate costume, available from the start
So conservative, you barely see her neck.

Still a good costume, though, considering her being the daughter of the undead pirate, Cervantes.


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

Now compare that to Bayonetta's costume which is made out of her own freaking hair. Yeah I just liked Bayonetta.. I think I'll go play that now.


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Now compare that to Bayonetta's costume which is made out of her own freaking hair.


But it covers everything . So.... who cares what it's made of?


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> But it covers everything . So.... who cares what it's made of?



No it doesn't. It doesn't cover anything. She's completely naked one hundred percent of the time.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Now compare that to Bayonetta's costume which is made out of her own freaking hair. Yeah I just liked Bayonetta.. I think I'll go play that now.


>Complains about Bayonetta being objectifying
>Publicly expresses enjoyment of Bayonetta

Me:


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> No it doesn't. It doesn't cover anything. She's completely naked one hundred percent of the time.


 Clothing is made of animal hair and polymers, technically your also naked 100% of the time. So your argument doesn't hold


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> >Complains about Bayonetta being objectifying
> >Publicly expresses enjoyment of Bayonetta
> 
> Me:



That's called being a cougar, or is that also self-objectifying?


----------



## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> That's called being a cougar, or is that also self-objectifying?


That's not what a cougar is....


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> That's called being a cougar, or is that also self-objectifying?


Cougars don't complain about objectification and support it within the same breath.
That's called bipolar (not really, but you get it)


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

MiroTheFox said:


> Clothing is made of animal hair and polymers, technically your also naked 100% of the time. So your argument doesn't hold


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

Oh you guys, you're so guys.


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Oh you guys, you're so guys.


No you're just a psycho. Or a troll.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Either way, blocked.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Now compare that to Bayonetta's costume which is made out of her own freaking hair. Yeah I just liked Bayonetta.. I think I'll go play that now.



Didn't you just said that Bayonetta's design was empowering?



Cannabiskitty said:


> I think the hypersexual aspect of Bayonetta is actually done right and actually adds to the feeling of empowerment



Besides, Bayonetta's design was entirely made by a woman, the only thing added by a man was the glasses which Kamiya was pretty stubborn about

Here's Mari Shimazaki blog about Bayonetta's design 
Designing Bayonetta | PlatinumGames Official Blog

Btw, Bayonetta uses her hair to summon demons because thats part of old european folklore


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

Congratulations guys you have successfully made me feel old.


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## MiroTheFox (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> Congratulations guys you have successfully made me feel old.


Senile*


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## Pipistrele (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Considering women aren't a singularity with one single taste, it is pretty irresponsible to believe that one can speak for the entirety of the female audience anyways.
> There are loads of people who rail against Bayonetta's hypersexuality, especially feminists, and considering that Duke Nukem Forever was written by two women shows that some women understand what parody and comedy are.


I mean, it's obviously subjective and depends largely on tastes, but while Bayonetta has solid amount of self-awareness and celebrates femininity, I dare you to find a single woman who enjoys her gender being represented by DNF's big-busted bikini ditzes who spend most their time either blowjobing a bug tough guy with a gun or being horrifically killed by aliens. That's about as "humorous and parodic" as a blackface.


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## Fiorabeast (Dec 24, 2018)

Well, obviously this game from Japan called '100 Sleeping Princes in the Kingdom of Dreams' is actually DOING SOMETHING RIGHT in making us a hot Prince in a lovely outfit like THIS, while all other games have hot guy characters, but don't bother to have them show abs, chest and butt for us in a sexy manner for the ladies (and gay guys too) because oh NO WE HAVE TO KEEP MALE DIGNITY IN TACT! NO NAKED BUTS FOR THEM! 

*coughIwantGranblueFantasy'sLancelotinasexyfundoshiandhalfnakedforChristmaswhichwillnevercometruecough*


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Pipistrele said:


> I dare you to find a single woman who enjoys her gender being represented by DNF's big-busted bikini ditzes who spend most their time either blowjobing a bug tough guy with a gun or being horrifically killed by aliens.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Fiorabeast said:


> View attachment 50544
> 
> Well, obviously this game from Japan called '100 Sleeping Princes in the Kingdom of Dreams' is actually DOING SOMETHING RIGHT in making us a hot Prince in a lovely outfit like THIS, while all other games have hot guy characters, but don't bother to have them show abs, chest and butt for us in a sexy manner for the ladies (and gay guys too) because oh NO WE HAVE TO KEEP MALE DIGNITY IN TACT! NO NAKED BUTS FOR THEM!
> 
> *coughIwantGranblueFantasy'sLancelotinasexyfundoshiandhalfnakedforChristmaswhichwillnevercometruecough*


He's cute af


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## Pipistrele (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


>


Considering there's barely any background on both at all (DNF appears to be their only involvement in writing for anything), we can't even deduce whether they're actual writers or just some sort of secondary supervisors/editors. I'd want something more solid than obscure staff entities - like, female reviewers or players that openly liked this stuff or something.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Blocked.
Don't ask for something and then move the goalposts when proven wrong.
It's immature and intellectually dishonest.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> No it doesn't. It doesn't cover anything. She's completely naked one hundred percent of the time.







Assuming this is actually how she is in the game, she looks clothed to me.
Even other pictures where her back is slightly exposed.
Is it objective? I guess you can argue that, but IDC.
Is it clothing? Yes, it's a form of clothing since clothes are: "A collective term for items worn on the body. Clothing can be made of textiles, animal skin, or other thin sheets of materials put together"




Prometheus_Fox said:


> >Complains about Bayonetta being objectifying
> >Publicly expresses enjoyment of Bayonetta
> 
> Me:


Disliking how a character is presented ≠  Being able to enjoy a game

I don't like how Rochelle from L4D2 is presented as in she's really annoying and due to them cutting ALOT of her lines she comes off annoying, but that doesn't stop me from playing L4D2 nor enjoying it, even if I like to watch her suffer or use her to annoy others with her loud and annoying vocalizer.
Then again, Rochelle and Zoey aren't really "objectified" and actually paints them really good so I guess I may be somewhat off... VALVe don't make games anymore so no need to worry about them objectifying women.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> Assuming this is actually how she is in the game, she looks clothed to me.
> Even other pictures where her back is slightly exposed.
> Is it objective? I guess you can argue that, but IDC.
> Is it clothing? Yes, it's a form of clothing since clothes are: "A collective term for items worn on the body. Clothing can be made of textiles, animal skin, or other thin sheets of materials put together"
> ...


I took it as both disliking and liking the character, not disliking the character and liking the game.
It sounded like a paradox so, understand my confusion.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I took it as both disliking and liking the character, not disliking the character and liking the game.
> It sounded like a paradox so, understand my confusion.


That's fine.
Especially confusing since some games have their game be same name as their characters...
Obvious examples of Most/every Mario game.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> That's fine.
> Especially confusing since some games have their game be same name as their characters...
> Obvious examples of Most/every Mario game.


I try to differentiate using the Super prefix for the franchise.


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

So as for female protagonists in mainstream video games what have we got? I'm probably going to miss some but here we go... and I'll stick to current games that have had releases in the past 2 or 3 years I guess. It's also sort of difficult to differentiate between what is mainstream and what isn't so..

Samus Aran, Metroid
Ellie, TLoU
Lara Croft, Tomb Raider
Chloe, Uncharted: TLL
Max, Life is Strange
Madeline, Celeste
....more?

There's more but I'm not really sure what I'd consider mainstream. And also I don't play enough games.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 24, 2018)

Cannabiskitty said:


> So as for female protagonists in mainstream video games what have we got? I'm probably going to miss some but here we go... and I'll stick to current games that have had releases in the past 2 or 3 years I guess. It's also sort of difficult to differentiate between what is mainstream and what isn't so..
> 
> Samus Aran, Metroid
> Ellie, TLoU
> ...


I can't really add much for the same reason. Unless you consider Don't Starve main stream which i doubt... And I would include L4D2, but that's 9 years old so I can't add that no matter what.

But just incase it is: Willow, Wendy, Wickerbottom, Wigfrid, Walani, Wilba and Winona
And although somewhat a protagonists but more of an antagonist: Charlie (Since she's the darkness and the story revolves around her and she's evil.)

I don't play most triple A garbage, for the obvious reason of them being garbage.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> I can't really add much for the same reason. Unless you consider Don't Starve main stream which i doubt... And I would include L4D2, but that's 9 years old so I can't add that no matter what.
> 
> But just incase it is: Willow, Wendy, Wickerbottom, Wigfrid, Walani, Wilba and Winona
> And although somewhat a protagonists but more of an antagonist: Charlie (Since she's the darkness and the story revolves around her and she's evil.)
> ...


I dont think Dont Starve is mainstream.
Generally, when people say 'mainstream' it translates to 'triple A'

The Triple A market has been spiraling into the abyss for a long time and now indie devs have more and more ways to publish and release games.

Now is the best to learn to make and publish whatever game you want to see in the market, due to the ease of some modern engines to produce games on like Unity, Game Maker, Rpg Maker, Ren Py, etc


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> I dont think Dont Starve is mainstream.
> Generally, when people say 'mainstream' it translates to 'triple A'
> 
> The Triple A market has been spiraling into the abyss for a long time and now indie devs have more and more ways to publish and release games.
> ...


That's what I thought hence why I didn't want to fully assume. But i'm also glad it isn't... If it was triple A, we wouldn't get any decent updates, nor would they allow us to easily buy the skins without the need of unboxing... And the unboxing is free aslong as you play.
Part of me wants to assume it means something popular... Which again I don't think it's very popular tbh. But I guess we want the best for a game we really like; Like Loadout which got shut down a year ago, was a really good game.

The issue arises that once you lower the boundary that let's people make games, you end up with crap.
If you make it easier for people to do stuff, you'll allow those less talented to flood the market; But with the ease of letting people make games more easily, it'll let good games come out, such as already mentioned Don't starve, Meat boy, Hat in time and Binding of Issac and although I don't like it, but Undertale as well I guess.
Really in some cases people will hate the ease of making games due to the crap flooding, but there still exists benefits.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> That's what I thought hence why I didn't want to fully assume. But i'm also glad it isn't... If it was triple A, we wouldn't get any decent updates, nor would they allow us to easily buy the skins without the need of unboxing... And the unboxing is free aslong as you play.
> Part of me wants to assume it means something popular... Which again I don't think it's very popular tbh. But I guess we want the best for a game we really like; Like Loadout which got shut down a year ago, was a really good game.
> 
> The issue arises that once you lower the boundary that let's people make games, you end up with crap.
> ...


Thankfully, the environment isn't as volatile as it was during the 80s video game crash.
Though the amount of crap is far higher, the amount of quality games have increased as well.


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## CrookedCroc (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Thankfully, the environment isn't as volatile as it was during the 80s video game crash.
> Though the amount of crap is far higher, the amount of quality games have increased as well.



At least shitty games have gotten funnier


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Thankfully, the environment isn't as volatile as it was during the 80s video game crash.
> Though the amount of crap is far higher, the amount of quality games have increased as well.


Yeah, but I think what contributed to it (correct me if i'm wrong.) was the fact they never had much if any options for indie devs like we do. If Atari was getting spammed with shitty games like it did, of course nobody is going to buy it and lose faith in games.
Whereas now even indie devs can easily get their games on consoles AND the internet which also made it BEYOND easier to put games on, since you can get websites or host it on platforms like Steam.



CrookedCroc said:


> At least shitty games have gotten funnier
> View attachment 50554


Maybe because people can make shitty games that are meant to be a joke? Or at least if you exclude meme games then yeah, but I guess that's the beauty of low boundarys of being able to publish a game.


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## quoting_mungo (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Blocked.
> Don't ask for something and then move the goalposts when proven wrong.
> It's immature and intellectually dishonest.


I would argue no goalposts were being moved - them being staff writers on the game doesn't say anything about whether they enjoyed the representation of women in it. You honestly came off as answering a different question.

Like, at least find an interview with them where they talk about it or something. Otherwise "they worked on the game" says nothing beyond "this was the project they received a paycheck for."


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I would argue no goalposts were being moved - them being staff writers on the game doesn't say anything about whether they enjoyed the representation of women in it. You honestly came off as answering a different question.
> 
> Like, at least find an interview with them where they talk about it or something. Otherwise "they worked on the game" says nothing beyond "this was the project they received a paycheck for."


That's not what was asked and i have no interest in discussing it further.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

Smexy Likeok4™ said:


> Yeah, but I think what contributed to it (correct me if i'm wrong.) was the fact they never had much if any options for indie devs like we do. If Atari was getting spammed with shitty games like it did, of course nobody is going to buy it and lose faith in games.
> Whereas now even indie devs can easily get their games on consoles AND the internet which also made it BEYOND easier to put games on, since you can get websites or host it on platforms like Steam.
> 
> 
> Maybe because people can make shitty games that are meant to be a joke? Or at least if you exclude meme games then yeah, but I guess that's the beauty of low boundarys of being able to publish a game.


Sure.
Back then, Atari (and to a lesser degree in the west, Sega) were really the only big names in the gaming business.
If you wanted indie stuff, you'd have to go to clubs and get homebrews for your Commodore etc.
At that time, the Internet was super primitive and nowhere near as popular as it is now, but there were some BBS you could go to and download games from.


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## quoting_mungo (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> That's not what was asked and i have no interest in discussing it further.


Dude. You even _quoted_ @Pipistrele in the post where you posted the Wikipedia screenshot. "I dare you to find a single woman who enjoys her gender being represented by DNF's big-busted bikini ditzes who spend most their time either blowjobing a bug tough guy with a gun or being horrifically killed by aliens." That's copied from the quote in _your_ post.
If that was not asking about women enjoying the representation in DNF, I don't know what would be. 

Like, I get that you felt that you did answer the question, but given what the question actually _was_, accusing Pipistrele of intellectual dishonesty for not being satisfied with your answer is a bit rich.



Cannabiskitty said:


> So as for female protagonists in mainstream video games what have we got? I'm probably going to miss some but here we go... and I'll stick to current games that have had releases in the past 2 or 3 years I guess. It's also sort of difficult to differentiate between what is mainstream and what isn't so..


Honestly, games of pretty much any age have the potential to be relevant; it depends on what perspective you take on the topic. Taking a perspective of how games (and reception) have changed over time is perfectly reasonable. (I'll readily admit that I personally am not particularly familiar with most of the very recent titles on account of spending the last handful of years in a proverbial hole - most of my familiarity is with content that was released earlier.)

Mainstream is probably easier to define for non-PC games; if it gets boxed copies in stores, it's mainstream enough, I figure.

_Horizon Zero Dawn_ has a pretty interesting female protagonist, come to think. And much of the Final Fantasy franchise seems to get strong female characters with diverse personalities. 



Pipistrele said:


> There was an actual problem with games "not being hostile to women" 20-30 years ago, with "strong dude saving helpless girl" stories remaining a default storytelling template (something even Mario games try to subvert nowadays) and misogynism of Kratos and Duke Nukem being an accepted norm, but situation drastically improved over the years, even if road to where we are now was rocky as heck (that GamerGate disaster for example).


I don't personally consider damsel in distress an outright hostile trope - I can understand why people might be turned off by it, but "got kidnapped by a giant spiky turtle-monster" or whatever is a pretty decent reason to need saving, all things told. 

What I meant by hostility was more along the lines of characters of a specific demographic overwhelmingly being based on negative stereotypes played straight, or gameplay so shallow that enjoyment of the game is dependent on finding the tit (or junk, I suppose, but the only game I've seen that I can recall with junk jiggle physics is _Mount Your Friends_ and enjoying that is definitely not dependent on enjoying watching their dicks bounce) jiggle physics tittilating.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Dec 24, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Dude. You even _quoted_ @Pipistrele in the post where you posted the Wikipedia screenshot. "I dare you to find a single woman who enjoys her gender being represented by DNF's big-busted bikini ditzes who spend most their time either blowjobing a bug tough guy with a gun or being horrifically killed by aliens." That's copied from the quote in _your_ post.
> If that was not asking about women enjoying the representation in DNF, I don't know what would be.
> 
> Like, I get that you felt that you did answer the question, but given what the question actually _was_, accusing Pipistrele of intellectual dishonesty for not being satisfied with your answer is a bit rich.
> ...


Believe what you like, but if I detested what I wrote, I wouldn't be writing or at least i'd be using a pen name a-la Alan Smithee.

Considering they allowed their names to be printed in the credits mean they have enough pride in their work to let anyone who bothers reading the credits know.

What's rich is them begging the question, assuming that NO woman would find Duke Forever enjoyable.

Now, like I said.
I have no interest in discussing this further.

I'm gonna buzz.
Merry Christmas.


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## Cannabiskitty (Dec 24, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Honestly, games of pretty much any age have the potential to be relevant; it depends on what perspective you take on the topic. Taking a perspective of how games (and reception) have changed over time is perfectly reasonable.



That's sort of why Samus was the first thing that came to mind except she doesn't really have much in the way of character beyond just being a bounty hunter. The further back you go the harder it is to find well written female leads..


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Dec 24, 2018)

Prometheus_Fox said:


> Sure.
> Back then, Atari (and to a lesser degree in the west, Sega) were really the only big names in the gaming business.
> If you wanted indie stuff, you'd have to go to clubs and get homebrews for your Commodore etc.
> At that time, the Internet was super primitive and nowhere near as popular as it is now, but there were some BBS you could go to and download games from.


Yeah, but even so indie stuff wasn't really common, or at least to my knowledge it wasn't really that big. Heck if anything I rarely hear any mention in regards to it.

Oh well, i'm just glad the past is in the past and that games didn't die out... Then again even so, games would come back especially with technology advancing.



Prometheus_Fox said:


> Believe what you like, but if I detested what I wrote, I wouldn't be writing or at least i'd be using a pen name a-la Alan Smithee.
> 
> Considering they allowed their names to be printed in the credits mean they have enough pride in their work to let anyone who bothers reading the credits know.
> 
> What's rich is them begging the question, assuming that NO woman would find Duke Forever enjoyable.


Some girls who I know, both online, relatives and real life girls that i'm friends with when I actually asked them about it really didn't mind it too much.
After all, it's a game; The purpose is to entertain. Heck, my mom made a slight joke about how the women are lucky to be with Duke whereas she's stuck with her husband.
And the few that have actually played it enjoyed it... Because it's a game.
Plus I'd be fine with men being buffed and exposed... Then again maybe i'm bias because gay. 

I won't discuss much other than it's a game. Games are made to be fun and played.
"If you don't like it, don't buy it." -EA 2018


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## Pipistrele (Dec 25, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I don't personally consider damsel in distress an outright hostile trope - I can understand why people might be turned off by it, but "got kidnapped by a giant spiky turtle-monster" or whatever is a pretty decent reason to need saving, all things told.
> 
> What I meant by hostility was more along the lines of characters of a specific demographic overwhelmingly being based on negative stereotypes played straight, or gameplay so shallow that enjoyment of the game is dependent on finding the tit (or junk, I suppose, but the only game I've seen that I can recall with junk jiggle physics is _Mount Your Friends_ and enjoying that is definitely not dependent on enjoying watching their dicks bounce) jiggle physics tittilating.


I agree with your reasoning - after all, there were enough dudes saved by women in videogames too. It's more that female characters were barely utilized in 80s-early 90s for anything more than "a girl that needs saving and becomes your love interest at the end", with women being represented less as characters and more as trophies for male protagonists. That's why Mario franchise became less grating with its storytelling over time despite same story being told again and again - Peach actually became a character with her quirks and interests, as well as capability to help others and even kick some butts on her own, rather than just another princess to save and marry.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Dec 26, 2018)

The extent and severity of the damsel in distress trope has thankfully waned over time. It used to be really obtrusive. 

Final Fantasy hasn't always been the best with women in video games. FFVII has some cringe inducing scenes. But they have grown since.

Having fanservice isn't itself wrong, but when fanservice so extensively focuses on male demographics, and objectifies said characters, it gets problematic. 

There is also a lack of understanding for what women actually value in a attractive male character. The megamuscle hulk isn't that appealing to women. Characters like Ezio, the lead for Red Dead, those tend to be more on point from what my friends have discussed. (I litteraly asked a friend what she and other women found attractive in general when it came to male eyecandy in games.) 

Bayonetta was written to be sexually empowering, but the advertising for the games is anything but. There is a very real disconnect there.


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## Fallowfox (Dec 26, 2018)

I keep reading this as 'female proctologists'.


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## David Drake (Dec 28, 2018)

I originally mentioned DiD as it was the first trope that popped in my head as an example for the point I was trying to make. I hope I made it clear that it was not the only harmful or most harmful of its company.


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## Attaman (Jan 1, 2019)

It seems I missed a _*gem*_ by not looking in this subforum. To turn back to something that people were a bit too willing / generous to let be swept under the rug...


Yakamaru said:


> Yes, women are more normal to see in the gaming scene, especially in the past decade.


Fun fact: I can look up ESA _*yearly reports*_ on gaming demographics, and you know what comes up?

As of 2014 the average female gamer had been playing videogames for _*thirteen years*_. Their average age was not given, though in 2015 the average woman gamer was about 43 years old (with the average male 35, and average years gaming (among both sexes) being 13). In 2016 the average woman gamer was 44 (with the average male gamer holding steady at 35 and among both sexes, again, at 13). The average age of women gamers did not drop until the 2017 survey (wherein the average female gamer's age suddenly dropped seven years, the average male's two), and then again in 2018 (by the sum total of... a single year). 

For those who cannot into math and averages, there are a few big things to draw from this:
1) There was an explosion in gamers over 2016 and 2017 (since the reports summarize the previous year's gaming) over both lines, but with women gamers specifically (putting them as a *rapidly growing market*). 
2) Going back before the 2016 / 2017 boom, the average woman gamer has been gaming since approximately 2000 at the *latest *(2014 -> 2013 Data, 2013 - 13 (average years gaming) = 2000), with the practical starting year for the majority likely going back into the 90's due to how averages work (For every person who started gaming _that year_, it would take about twelve people who had been gaming for at least 13 [now 14] years to keep a consistent average). 
3) Oh, and before anyone tries to be glib and comment something like "Oh that's padded by counting women playing games like Minesweeper and Solitaire," surprise. It turns out that if you're looking at these "casual" games that _that sword cuts both ways_ and that as of 2008 there were all of _*two*_ games among the top ten played by either men *or* women (World of Warcraft for both, plus Half-Life 2 for men specifically), and that it's very probable that the only reason men had two "proper" games on their list is due to a _handicap_ provided by being _the smaller demographic_ (and thus getting quite literally more bang for the buck on purchased game representation).

So just to _*start*_, the argument that gaming women are some new phenomena is hilariously bunk (as again: The average female gamer has been gaming since _*2000 or earlier*_, quite literally _can't_ be padding that number with social media games, and the breakdown of people playing Solitaire and Pinball and the like isn't especially favorable to the averages of male gaming demographics either).

Moving on, 


Yakamaru said:


> They will however always be a minority as this is a predominantly male scene in general.


Funny thing about the word "predominantly": It infers a bigger gap than what the numbers actually portray. For example: Did you know that, over a _several year stretch_, the _*largest gaming demographic in *_*the*_* US was women 18+*_?

Honestly, I'm surprised people in here were so willing to let this slide as so many of the arguments that followed come back to this underlying assumption (that women are a minority in the gaming scene, will always be a minority, and only really started to become prevalent anyhow), when the fact of the matter is that they've been underrepresented for _*quite literal decades*_ and have - especially if one _really_ goes back in time to before the marketing shift to push electronic games as something for young-to-young-adult boys - precedent of being _a larger share of the market than men_.

Then again, I can probably guess why people wouldn't want to touch on this: The inevitable shitstorm that spawns when some chucklefuck thinking their self a chessmaster asks "Well if girl gamers are more numerous, why don't we see more of them?", leading inevitably to the pretty well corroborated answer that "Because the gaming community is toxic and sexist as fuck" which turns threads into Gamergate MkII: Electric Boogaloo. 

Now, to finally harken back to the OP and why people might like more (and more appreciation for) female protagonists, I'd like to play a game I've become rather fond of over the last few years: Name me *five* first person perspective protagonists - protagonists who aren't sharing the spotlight, such as in a game like Left4Dead or multiplayer deathmatches like Overwatch - , who're women, in games that came out in the last twenty years. ...You have your list? Excellent. Now, remove from the list the following:
1) First Person Survival Horror Protagonists. I assume I don't need to specify why I'm arbitrarily asking you to remove protagonists who spend 75%+ of the game hiding / running away
2) First Person games that do not feature combat whatsoever, or actively penalize you (mechanically and thematically) for choosing confrontational gameplay. 
3) Are a port from a traditionally non-First Person series to a First Person one.
4) Are a one-off DLC / Expansion Pack storyline. Bonus points if the DLC / Expansion Pack has radically different, combat-deemphasizing mechanics compared to the mainline game.

Because I can trawl up about a half-dozen male examples in the last _*five years*_ who fulfill these criteria off the top of my head, and it's genuinely fun watching people wrack their brains going back _twenty years_ to do the same for female versions. And remember: The average woman gamer has been - at least in the US - gaming since around the late 90's / 00, so if you're having trouble, imagine what it's like for people who _literally have been gaming long enough to have since had children - children now legally capable of playing T-Rated Games - and can't even offer them five examples over four console generations_.


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## Fruitythebeetle (Jan 9, 2019)

As a female, i'm gonna give my two cents on the topic, not all women are this monolithic group that like the same thing. as stated before, there's plenty of girls that play games, and mobile games are at least games in my eyes. i even play a few when i'm not gunning down grineer in warframe.  you read that right, i play a ultraviolet third person shooter where you can play as a badass space ninja. now i admit the setting was what eventually drew me in, especially considering back in the day warframe was light on story. 

but the fact that i'm female has little to affect what i like in games. sure i do enjoy very girly games but i enjoy gender neutral and manly ones as well.  nothing grinds my gears more than thinking video games is a male only hobby. it's like saying reading books is a female only hobby. both are equally dumb statements that really need to die soon.



Spoiler: now for my thoughts on representation and the "male gaze" 



I'll be the first woman to admit that i like hot girls. i'm not super gay or anything, but i like looking at a shapely figure (shame there aren't more actually thicc girls in games). so when i hear folks getting mad over some skin being shown, i just shrug. now it depends on how the character is and what their background is, as i hate it when the character is hot for the sake of being hot. it kinda ruins the se appeal as it makes no sense for the character to be sexy. but at the same time, just dismissing a character just for their appearance is quite frankly sexist in my eyes. if they atleast play the ame or watch let's plays of it, they'll realize this character is more than just looks.


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