# The Demise of Square-Enix



## Cocobanana (Jul 6, 2011)

For those of you who include Crystal Chronicles and Final Fantasy X among the games that heralded Square's downfall, you're in luck; my explanation for what happened predates the development of those games.

It all comes back to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

Mind-blowingly awesome CGI, a decent to good original sci-fi story, and 4 years of development starting in 97, the film cost 137 million dollars to make but only grossed 80 million worldwide.

Why is this so? Especially when crap films like Battle for Los Angeles make so much money? It's because all the Final Fantasy fans complained there was no Cloud, no Tifa, no Zidane, or any other characters they remembered.

The problem here is that the term 'Final Fantasy' was started because Square's was on the ropes and they only had enough money for one more game and that is the one they made. But it became highly successful, so each new game was a 'Final Fantasy' as a symbolic thing. They weren't ever supposed to have related characters. You'll notice that changed AFTER the failure of 'The Spirits Within.' And then we were given poop like 'Advent Children' which made way less sense as a movie.

So this is my theory, because all the horrible games and horrible sequels and second-triple guessing didn't begin until after fans gave Square a hard time for not including enough fan service in their products. Maybe you have a different one? I'd love to hear it.


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## Onnes (Jul 6, 2011)

I think their most impressive recent failure was the launch of FFXIV. They rushed one of their flagship titles out the door with absolutely no polish and swamped with issues. That isn't a problem of vision in storytelling, it's a problem in basic technical competence. Square-Enix is obviously suffering from some horrific management at this point.


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## Vaelarsa (Jul 6, 2011)

The Spirits Within was an awesome movie.
It sucks that whiny little fanbrats can't wrap their minds around something that is videogame related, but not a gigantic pile of fanservice.
I liked the Mario movie on the same grounds - it was something different.
I think if Spirits Within was a standalone (as in, no "Final Fantasy" name attached) it would have done a lot better, critically.

Advent Children, on the other hand, fucking sucked.
The animation sucked. The fight scenes sucked. The plot sucked. The pacing sucked.
Fuck Advent Children.


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## Xenke (Jul 6, 2011)

Eh, Platinum is where it's at anyway, yo.

Square's been--

Crap, I forgot they took over the US localization of an MMO I play. I can only hope they're doing meaningless things like translation and server maintenance instead of fiddling with game mechanics and such.


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## Dr. Durr (Jul 6, 2011)

Fun Fact:
The reason Final Fantasy has it's name was because Square thought it would be their last game.


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## Cain (Jul 6, 2011)

How many FF games have there been? 30!?


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## Cud (Jul 6, 2011)

It poisons everything it touches.

Supreme commander went from a complex massive scale rts to a weaboo starcraft knock-off because of square enix related publisher pressure.


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## lupinealchemist (Jul 6, 2011)

I end up playing the original Enix franchises like Dragon Quest, Star Ocean, Actraiser, EVO and so on.


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## DarrylWolf (Jul 6, 2011)

I think their only hope is to just re-release the old games they made back when they had "it" because they obviously don't have "it" anymore.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 6, 2011)

Crystal Chronicles had nothing with their Downfall, it was something different and became its own series. their downfall was FFX-2 and joining up with Disney to make those KH games :V


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## Heimdal (Jul 6, 2011)

The problem with Spirits Within isn't that it didn't have Cloud, it's that it didn't have any characters worth caring about. Fancy movie, but I couldn't get into it. Is it impossible to think that any movie could have a character as interesting as Cloud in it? No it's not; there's a ton of movie characters I like way more than Cloud. It doesn't work to blame the fans for complaining about not seeing any of the characters they wanted, because all it says is that Square failed to produce adequate new characters.

I think the company's problem is that they were the top of the top when the competition in their genre wasn't too great, and now every genre they try to compete in has better. So really they're just not as good as everyone, and nostalgia, wants them to be.


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 7, 2011)

Their downfall is more the people passing internet laws to keep you from liking their games.


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## Togo57 (Jul 7, 2011)

Personally, focusing on Final Fantasy, I woud blame more FF X-2 for starting the sequel/prequel palooza. Though I blame it's demise more on the company for being too cocky, with RPGs dominating the market and WRPG players being more difficult to find than FPS players, and too over dependant on the Final Fantasy series.


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## Ibuuyk (Jul 7, 2011)

Cocobanana said:


> For those of you who include Crystal Chronicles and Final Fantasy X among the games that heralded Square's downfall, you're in luck; my explanation for what happened predates the development of those games.



Final Fantasy X was the best game in the serie.



Cocobanana said:


> It all comes back to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.
> 
> Mind-blowingly awesome CGI, a decent to good original sci-fi story, and 4 years of development starting in 97, the film cost 137 million dollars to make but only grossed 80 million worldwide.
> 
> Why is this so?



Because it was utter shit.

Gosh OP, you're a horrible person.


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## Cocobanana (Jul 7, 2011)

Ibuuyk said:


> Final Fantasy X was the best game in the serie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From videos I've seen, Final Fantasy X had a dumb story, annoying voice acting, and mostly too easy gameplay. Maybe you played the japanese version and it was better. As for the Final Fantasy movie, there are a lot crappier films that people on these forums champion like Transformers so there's not really any excuse that The Spirits Within didn't perform better. Maybe if it had been released a few years later when internet blogging came into fruition.


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## Lunao (Jul 7, 2011)

Oh boy here we go again with the debate over Square-Enix and Final Fantasy.  I hope you know that they make games other than Final Fantasy.  If you wish to argue the demise of SE as a result of the latter FF titles, you could have a good argument there.  Most of SE's fanbase lies in the Final Fantasy series but their latest two main title games, XIII and XIV have made fans angry and is ruining the company's image.  Will that stop us from buying their games?  No.  I have mixed feelings about XIII-2 but I see they are trying to improve upon their mistakes and this sequel looks halfway decent.  You could say XIII-2 is the true game and XIII was just one long opening cinematic.

Also if all of you are griping about the sequels/prequels, not all are bad, though I haven't played everything.  Crisis Core was an enjoyable game and I liked it very much.  FFIV the After Years was also good.

One last thing: if you are going to complain about Square-Enix, you might want to move on to other developers and games.  Namco's "Tales of" series is very good.  Go play some of those games.


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## Rinz (Jul 7, 2011)

OP, you forgot one big thing about why a CGI film like Spirts Within didn't do nearly as well as other crap films. Those crap films were live action. In a large portion of the world, animation (especially in 2001) is considered to be for children, so not many adults were interested in seeing it. Unfortunately, the style didn't appeal to children and they didn't want to see. it. Combine it with the fact that in and of itself, Spirits Within was for a fairly niche market in the first place, and the whole thing is a pure recipe for disaster.


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## Cocobanana (Jul 7, 2011)

Rinz said:


> OP, you forgot one big thing about why a CGI film like Spirts Within didn't do nearly as well as other crap films. Those crap films were live action. In a large portion of the world, animation (especially in 2001) is considered to be for children, so not many adults were interested in seeing it. Unfortunately, the style didn't appeal to children and they didn't want to see. it. Combine it with the fact that in and of itself, Spirits Within was for a fairly niche market in the first place, and the whole thing is a pure recipe for disaster.



Or maybe if it had been directed by John Cameron and presented in 3D. >.>


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## Conker (Jul 7, 2011)

I won't argue that Square Enix sure aren't what they used to be, but Crystal Chronicles on the Gamecube was actually a really fun game if you had someone else to play with. Granted, you needed two GBA's and the link cables, but once you had all of that, that game was actually fucking amazing. 

I logged so many co op hours into that with my brother, just replaying dungeons. Crystal Chronicles was not a bad game. It was a different game, and perhaps would have been received better if they didn't brand it as a Final Fantasy title, but it wasn't a terrible game.

The new Crystal Chronicles games look awful though :[


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## Rinz (Jul 7, 2011)

Cocobanana said:


> Or maybe if it had been directed by John Cameron and presented in 3D. >.>


 
Possibly, but either way, people don't want something they're not already used to. Good movies are usually overlooked because they're not a rehash of every other movie already out there, simply because people don't want to spend the money going to the movies to see something they're not sure if they'll like or not.




Conker said:


> I won't argue that Square Enix sure aren't what they used to be, but Crystal Chronicles on the Gamecube was actually a really fun game if you had someone else to play with. Granted, you needed two GBA's and the link cables, but once you had all of that, that game was actually fucking amazing.
> 
> I logged so many co op hours into that with my brother, just replaying dungeons. Crystal Chronicles was not a bad game. It was a different game, and perhaps would have been received better if they didn't brand it as a Final Fantasy title, but it wasn't a terrible game.
> 
> The new Crystal Chronicles games look awful though :[


 
CC was one of those games that would've probably suffered from the whole "OMG FAINAL FANTASII RIPOFF" thing if they HADN'T put the FF name in there. And the second DS CC wasn't bad, especially for co-op. I'm not a big fan of the fixed camera angle though.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 8, 2011)

Conker said:


> I won't argue that Square Enix sure aren't what they used to be, but Crystal Chronicles on the Gamecube was actually a really fun game if you had someone else to play with. Granted, you needed two GBA's and the link cables, but once you had all of that, that game was actually fucking amazing.
> 
> I logged so many co op hours into that with my brother, just replaying dungeons. Crystal Chronicles was not a bad game. It was a different game, and perhaps would have been received better if they didn't brand it as a Final Fantasy title, but it wasn't a terrible game.
> 
> The new Crystal Chronicles games look awful though :[


 ugh, I hate the new Crystal Chronicles, I still play the first one along with the Wii My Life as King, I actually have a kingdom where I name all the adventurers after FAF users


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## lupinealchemist (Jul 8, 2011)

One time I was able to make the Selkie's Dreamcatcher. I gave up on making the Ultima Weapon since the materials were ungodly expensive and killing thousands of monsters for gil wasn't cutting it, even with the reward money from the princess sidequest.


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## Schwimmwagen (Jul 8, 2011)

Jagged Edge said:


> How many FF games have there been? 30!?


 
Well the Guinness book of world records 2010 Gamer's edition said 45.... ._.


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## Larry (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't care what happens to them.

I just want my Kingdom Hearts III.


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## Ibuuyk (Jul 8, 2011)

Gibby said:


> Well the Guinness book of world records 2010 Gamer's edition said 45.... ._.


 
I'm gonna write those I know :

I + remakes, II + remakes, III + remakes, IV + DLC + remakes, V + remakes, VI + remakes, VII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, XI + expansions (do they even count?), XII, XIII, XIII-2, XIV.
Legends I, II, III + remakes.
Adventures I, II, III.
Mystic Quest.
Crystal Chronicles I, II, III.
Something (lol Japanese) Dungeon I, II, III.
Knights of the Crystal.
Chocobo Fable.
Chocobo Something (lol Facebook).
Revenant Wings.
Crysis Core.
That one with Vincent in it.
Tactics I, II, III + remakes.
Dissidia I, II.
4 Heroes of Light.

That's 41 excluding the remakes, prequels/sequels, shitload of Chocobo/Racing/Mobile/Obscure games.  If you count 'em all, there's easily over 60 Final Fantasy games.


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## Alastair Snowpaw (Jul 8, 2011)

out of all companies that have had demises, square enix's is sure one of the longest and grandest demises....


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## Imperial Impact (Jul 9, 2011)

Ibuuyk said:


> Legends I, II, III + remakes.
> Adventures I, II, III.


Yeah, The SaGa and Seiken Densetsu games are really Final Fantasy games, Even thought Final Fantasy has nothing to do with SaGa nor Seiken Densetsu.


that reminds me of


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## CyberFoxx (Jul 9, 2011)

Personally, I wish they'd do remakes/sequels of games that actually need it: EinhÃ¤nder, Threads of Fate, The Bouncer (Er, wait, that became Kingdom Hearts), Seiken Densetsu 3, the full real version of Xenogears. And since they own Enix: E.V.O: The Search for Eden (Honestly, with today's graphics and sound/music, a remake would be amazing! Then again, Enix published it, Almanic developed it, and they dissolved.), Terranigma (Quintet made it, but still!). Still, there is a huge list of games they did in-house, or otherwise published, that they could do remakes/sequels of, but sadly won't. ;(


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## Zydala (Jul 9, 2011)

I think their demise is because they're losing all the good directors and higher-ups. They're also struggling with having to cater tob the Japanese market, whose taste is stagnating and leaving little room for new and interesting titles that could revive and take their works in a new direction. SE is actually quite interested in western gaming traditions, but can't seem to convince the japanese market that this is a good road to go down, and often has to play up the usual jrpg fare.

There was a great kotaku article about the whole debacle too, I should go and find it.


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## Imperial Impact (Jul 10, 2011)

Final Fantasy was shit even before Square-Enix merged.


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 10, 2011)

Ibuuyk said:


> Legends I, II, III + remakes.
> Adventures I, II, III.


 

When did they make a sequel to Final Fantasy Adventure? 

Also, you *do* know that Final Fantasy Legends were only branded that way to make them more marketable outside of Japan, right?


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## Imperial Impact (Jul 10, 2011)

Digitalpotato said:


> When did they make a sequel to Final Fantasy Adventure?
> 
> Also, you *do* know that Final Fantasy Legends were only branded that way to make them more marketable outside of Japan, right?


 Didn't you know Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3 is really Final Fantasy Adventure 2 and 3?????

/joke


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## Ibuuyk (Jul 10, 2011)

Digitalpotato said:


> When did they make a sequel to Final Fantasy Adventure?
> 
> Also, you *do* know that Final Fantasy Legends were only branded that way to make them more marketable outside of Japan, right?


 
Ever heard of Seiken Densetsu I?  Yea, that was Final Fantasy Adventures.


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## M. LeRenard (Jul 10, 2011)

Talking about their 'demise'.... I'm pretty much on the ropes about the whole issue.  On the one hand, they've pumped out a ton of shitty games in the past several years, some of which it's really clear they put absolutely no time or energy into (Star Ocean: The Last Hope).
And yet--and I'm just going to come out and say it--I really liked FF XIII.  Blasphemy, right?  I hated XII, didn't bother with XI, and thought X was fun but incredibly stupid.  But XIII really, really impressed me.  Yes, they could have done some things much better (less linear dungeons would have been really nice), but I thought the combat system was downright brilliant (yeah; I said that), the story (despite how it appears on the surface) was sophisticated and full of nuance and symbolism (something you don't get too much on video games!), and the characters actually visibly progressed as people throughout the course of the game.
Now, I admit; I'm biased.  But not in the usual sense.  Ever since XII (which was a long, boring, insultingly standard piece of fantasy crap), I'd pretty much lost all hope that Square-Enix would ever make anything really good ever again.  It just felt like they'd stopped trying.  I gave them another shot by playing the latest Star Ocean, but that game turned out to be the worst thing ever conceived by a human.  So I actually ended up playing XIII entirely out of morbid curiosity.  I was like, "I wonder how this turd they shit out onto this disk is going to smell?"
So you can imagine how surprised and pleased I was that they actually put some effort into the game.  Everything was built up in a precise way, right down to the way the game was structured.  The fact that you start off on a single path (a symbolic representation of the state everyone's in, being shepherded along by the military and the Fal'cie) and then eventually break off of that path and get a whole world to explore (once everyone makes the decision to follow their own idea of destiny), the fact that they actually gave an explanation for why this little band of adventurers was so much stronger than everyone else, the way they played with how the character archetypes influenced the events that eventually unfolded, and other little things like that, seem to indicate that this was a project they really cared about.  I think they accomplished exactly everything they wanted to with that one.
Unfortunately, being more like a piece of art, it leaves a lot to be desired as a video game, and I think that's where most peoples' complaints come from.  But it did give me hope again for them as a company.  There's a little passion there still, and I could see it shine through in FF XIII.  If they could make another game like that, but more fun to play, I think they'd have the mojo from their glory days back.
So I don't think they're dead quite yet (although they are seriously injured by the giant flub that is FF XIV).


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## Imperial Impact (Jul 10, 2011)

Ibuuyk said:


> Ever heard of Seiken Densetsu I?  Yea, that was Final Fantasy Adventures.


 But nobody calls Seiken Densetsu 1 "Final Fantasy Adventures" anymore.


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## Genumix (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> I really liked FF XIII.  Blasphemy, right?
> ...
> Everything was built up in a precise way, right down to the way the game was structured. The fact that you start off on a single path (a symbolic representation of the state everyone's in, being shepherded along by the military and the Fal'cie) and then eventually break off of that path and get a whole world to explore (once everyone makes the decision to follow their own idea of destiny), the fact that they actually gave an explanation for why this little band of adventurers was so much stronger than everyone else, the way they played with how the character archetypes influenced the events that eventually unfolded, and other little things like that, seem to indicate that this was a project they really cared about. I think they accomplished exactly everything they wanted to with that one.
> ...
> Unfortunately, being more like a piece of art, it leaves a lot to be desired as a video game, and I think that's where most peoples' complaints come from.



Same here.  I'm better at reading books than playing games, so I loved FFXIII.  In high school English, I did my big senior project on looking at video games as a potential medium for  literature.  So I analyzed the characters/philosophy/gender theory of FFXIII, and the themes of Deadspace.  It was actually really interesting, and there was a lot I could have done, but simply didn't have room for.  Man, I hope Square-Enix doesn't flounder.  And I hope the market for games like FFXIII expands, so we can get some awesomely literary masterpieces that get you completely immersed in the narrative with stunning gameplay and epic music. [/wishful thinking]


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## Shark_the_raptor (Jul 11, 2011)

They went downhill when they went from Squaresoft to Square Enix imo.


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## Plantar (Jul 11, 2011)

Shark_the_raptor said:


> They went downhill when they went from Squaresoft to Square Enix imo.


 
Agreed. Square-Enix ruined Enix too. They were Squaresoft's competition. With no real competition to keep Squaresoft in check, they just don't put in any effort. And now my Dragon Quest games suffer from it too. >:C


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## thoron (Jul 11, 2011)

To me, the problem with Square-Enix is that thier emphasising graphics over gameplay and storytelling now. Where did all the things that made Square and its games so great go? The story telling? The side quests? The puzzles? Exploring the entire world? If square were to make a FFXV, I hope it would have the the puzzles, world exploring, and enviroment interactions of I-IX, with battle system of XII, as well as the stat growth and character developement of XIII. SO4 AKA Star Ocean: The Last Hope could have been good, but its like they ran out of disc place or money or both. There should have been some exploration of the other lands and worlds.


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## LordBorel (Jul 11, 2011)

I thought they were dying because they vomit stylized Japanese nonsense all over what should be a really good RPG, and of course injecting it with 100 times the legal amount of teenage angst. Final Fantasy is pretty much the Land Before Time of video games at this point.


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## Ibuuyk (Jul 11, 2011)

Perverted Impact said:


> But nobody calls Seiken Densetsu 1 "Final Fantasy Adventures" anymore.


 
What can I say, I'm that old school :V


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## CaptainCool (Jul 11, 2011)

thoron said:


> If square were to make a FFXV, I hope it would have the the puzzles,


yes please!


thoron said:


> world exploring,


oh yeah^^


thoron said:


> and enviroment interactions of I-IX,


i loved that!


thoron said:


> with battle system of XII,


never played it but ok, at least its more dynamic!


thoron said:


> as well as the stat growth and character developement of XIII.


*NO!* please oh god NO! that system is TERRIBLE! they claim that you are "free to choose your own path on it" but thats total BS! its a straight line with a few paths with stuff that you need anyway! no freedom AT ALL!
and teaching a character new jobs was a waste of time, too! those abilities were WAY too expensive and they were pointless, why would i teach a mage melee abilities or vice versa?
they should just go back to the traditional system that everyone can wear items at any level and that you gain more abilities with the increasing character level. or gaining abilities by extracting them from items like they did in FFIX, that would work for me, too  at least with that system i can actually choose what i wanna teach a character, or whether i abort the learning process for now because i got a new item with a better ability.


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## thoron (Jul 11, 2011)

CaptainCool said:


> *NO!* please oh god NO! that system is TERRIBLE! they claim that you are "free to choose your own path on it" but thats total BS! its a straight line with a few paths with stuff that you need anyway! no freedom AT ALL!
> and teaching a character new jobs was a waste of time, too! those abilities were WAY too expensive and they were pointless, why would i teach a mage melee abilities or vice versa?
> they should just go back to the traditional system that everyone can wear items at any level and that you gain more abilities with the increasing character level. or gaining abilities by extracting them from items like they did in FFIX, that would work for me, too  at least with that system i can actually choose what i wanna teach a character, or whether i abort the learning process for now because i got a new item with a better ability.


 
You misunderstand me, I love that method of stat developement when you pick members of the party, each character is specialized, I can't stand it when at the end of the day all the characters are more or less the same in stats and abilities. Now if you have a party of say three, and there are only three characters, I'd be more open to complete freedom of character developement, but when there are six characters and you can only use three of them at any given time, I'd rather thier skills and stats be forced to lean towards particular strengths and weakness. Though I will agree that they should also return to more variaty of equipment, there needs to be more then just weapons and accessories.


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## CaptainCool (Jul 11, 2011)

thoron said:


> You misunderstand me, I love that method of stat developement when you pick members of the party, each character is specialized, I can't stand it when at the end of the day all the characters are more or less the same in stats and abilities. Now if you have a party of say three, and there are only three characters, I'd be more open to complete freedom of character developement, but when there are six characters and you can only use three of them at any given time, I'd rather thier skills and stats be forced to lean towards particular strengths and weakness. Though I will agree that they should also return to more variaty of equipment, there needs to be more then just weapons and accessories.


 
specialized characters are awesome but that doesnt really have to do anything with the system of FFXIII^^ there the characters arent really all that specialized since they can choose between 3 classes by default and even gain 3 more once it opens up.
i liked how they did it in final fantasy IX. 2 healers/summoners, a black mage, a blue mage, 3 melee fighters and a dragoon. done! with those characters you can mix some really neat parties and you dont have to switch classes every five seconds...
but i also liked final fantasy VIIIs system! because of the junction system you could give each character pretty much the same stats and abilities. so i just had 3 melee guys with healing abilities, i didnt use magic at all  i simply used it to boost the stats^^ and since some of the GFs gave you healing and resurrection abilities i didnt have to resort to items, too. it was pretty awesome


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## M. LeRenard (Jul 11, 2011)

The leveling system in XIII was all right, but it was mostly just cosmetic.  You had some options, but each character was basically limited to two roles each (Snow and Fang could be straight up combat or specialize in defense, Sazh could either be an attacker or a support character, etc.), because even when all the roles opened up for everybody, certain characters were more limited than the others (Fang's ravager class had about 1/4 the capacity as Vanille's, for example).  So while it was an improvement to X's system (which was entirely cosmetic), it was still relatively pointless.


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## Genumix (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> The leveling system in XIII was all right, but it was mostly just cosmetic.  You had some options, but each character was basically limited to two roles each (Snow and Fang could be straight up combat or specialize in defense, Sazh could either be an attacker or a support character, etc.), because even when all the roles opened up for everybody, certain characters were more limited than the others (Fang's ravager class had about 1/4 the capacity as Vanille's, for example).  So while it was an improvement to X's system (which was entirely cosmetic), it was still relatively pointless.


 
The leveling system in XIII was really pretty.  Being an art fan, that was enough for me.  XD

srsly, though, the leveling system was not nearly as important as the thematic character development and the paradigm system.  Making the right combination of decks for bosses like Neo Ochus or those giant tortoises could be challenging, depending on the player's style.  When I was coming up to a harder mark, I stopped paying attention to EXP and more to what I was doing wrong with paradigms, which makes you invest more thought and frees you from investing as much time as if you couldn't switch characters/roles out.


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## M. LeRenard (Jul 11, 2011)

Genumix said:


> The leveling system in XIII was really pretty.  Being an art fan, that was enough for me.  XD
> 
> srsly, though, the leveling system was not nearly as important as the thematic character development and the paradigm system.  Making the right combination of decks for bosses like Neo Ochus or those giant tortoises could be challenging, depending on the player's style.  When I was coming up to a harder mark, I stopped paying attention to EXP and more to what I was doing wrong with paradigms, which makes you invest more thought and frees you from investing as much time as if you couldn't switch characters/roles out.



Right.  And that's why I said that I thought the combat system was brilliant.  It's incredibly streamlined and leaves a lot of room for really quick changes in strategy, while at the same time allowing you enough opportunity to micro-manage that it doesn't always just play itself.  If you play the game and complain that it's on auto-battle all the time, simply put, you're not using it to its full potential.
I see this as another example of what I like to call the 'Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter' syndrome, where a company takes a huge risk by completely changing up their formula and trying something vastly new and different, and the product ends up getting universally panned despite its quality because people are afraid of change.  Now, Square could take the hit because their sales are always through the roof no matter what they put out, but the same kind of thing happened with XIII, and I think that might have shaken their faith enough that they ended up trying to rectify the 'mistake' by shoving XIV out there too early (before it was actually finished).
It's a shame, really.  Games like FF XIII, I think, are heading in the right direction, but the usual kind of gamer just doesn't buy into it.  But hey... that happens with every art form.  Great leaps are made, but are rarely recognized for what they are and so fall into obscurity.


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## thoron (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> Right.  And that's why I said that I thought the combat system was brilliant.  It's incredibly streamlined and leaves a lot of room for really quick changes in strategy, while at the same time allowing you enough opportunity to micro-manage that it doesn't always just play itself.  If you play the game and complain that it's on auto-battle all the time, simply put, you're not using it to its full potential.
> I see this as another example of what I like to call the 'Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter' syndrome, where a company takes a huge risk by completely changing up their formula and trying something vastly new and different, and the product ends up getting universally panned despite its quality because people are afraid of change.  Now, Square could take the hit because their sales are always through the roof no matter what they put out, but the same kind of thing happened with XIII, and I think that might have shaken their faith enough that they ended up trying to rectify the 'mistake' by shoving XIV out there too early (before it was actually finished).
> It's a shame, really.  Games like FF XIII, I think, are heading in the right direction, but the usual kind of gamer just doesn't buy into it.  But hey... that happens with every art form.  Great leaps are made, but are rarely recognized for what they are and so fall into obscurity.



The one thing I hate about the FFXIII battle system is that I have zero control of the other party members, I wouldn't have any issue with FFXIII battle system if I could change the party leader during battle. The reason FFXIII is frowned upon is because many elements that made Final Fantasy well...... Final Fantasy were removed. The only things that remained were the Chocobo's, and names: spell names, and character names, monster names. But what about side quest? Pretty much gone, until you get to pulse, and even then its only monster hunting. The puzzle solving? Gone. Airships? While there in concept, you never get to control it to go to areas of your choice, its only there for story progression. Exporing the world? Nope, the game is a train track till you get to Pulse and even still its pretty confined. NPC interaction? Barely there, walk close to a character to hear what thier saying (lots of bad voice acting). Any improvements that were made to the FF title were obscured by what they (stupidly) decided to omit, maybe if Square-Enix stops wasting disc space on grapics, they might be able to incorperate the elements that the fans have come to love and expect again. Cause thats what it seems like is happening now, thier focusing on graphics and looks and its taking up so much space on the discs that theres no room for a world exporation, actual side quests that take place over the course of the entire game, as well as side events that effect what happens further down the road.


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## Calemeyr (Jul 12, 2011)

All I have to say about XIII is...you know you're fucked when the main protagonist looks like Kim Bauer.


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## M. LeRenard (Jul 12, 2011)

thoron said:


> The one thing I hate about the FFXIII battle system is that I have zero control of the other party members, I wouldn't have any issue with FFXIII battle system if I could change the party leader during battle. The reason FFXIII is frowned upon is because many elements that made Final Fantasy well...... Final Fantasy were removed. The only things that remained were the Chocobo's, and names: spell names, and character names, monster names. But what about side quest? Pretty much gone, until you get to pulse, and even then its only monster hunting. The puzzle solving? Gone. Airships? While there in concept, you never get to control it to go to areas of your choice, its only there for story progression. Exporing the world? Nope, the game is a train track till you get to Pulse and even still its pretty confined. NPC interaction? Barely there, walk close to a character to hear what thier saying (lots of bad voice acting). Any improvements that were made to the FF title were obscured by what they (stupidly) decided to omit, maybe if Square-Enix stops wasting disc space on grapics, they might be able to incorperate the elements that the fans have come to love and expect again. Cause thats what it seems like is happening now, thier focusing on graphics and looks and its taking up so much space on the discs that theres no room for a world exporation, actual side quests that take place over the course of the entire game, as well as side events that effect what happens further down the road.


The linearity of the gameplay was the major flaw I could see, like I said earlier.  It's barely a game; it's more like a piece of art.  So while I take issue with you saying they mostly focused on graphics (read my first post), I know exactly where you're coming from.
That said... I like a little freshness here and there.  I honestly don't mind that moogles and tonberries and such weren't in the game.  They wouldn't have fit anyway, considering the game's atmosphere.  Again, it comes down the kind of game they were trying to make, and what works on an artistic level.
And I guess I wasn't disappointed that there weren't 48.5x10^78 side quests to work on for all eternity like in FF XII.  In XII they went WAY overboard.  In XIII they just went underboard, which isn't as bad in my opinion.  But I'm not much for side-quests anyway.


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## Imperial Impact (Jul 12, 2011)

Crocodile said:


> Agreed. Square-Enix ruined Enix too. They were Squaresoft's competition. With no real competition to keep Squaresoft in check, they just don't put in any effort. And now my Dragon Quest games suffer from it too. >:C


 Yuji Horii has the rights for Dragon Quest. So I'm pretty sure Square-Enix can't do anything without Horii's permission.


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## Genumix (Jul 12, 2011)

thoron said:


> The one thing I hate about the FFXIII battle system is that I have zero control of the other party members, I wouldn't have any issue with FFXIII battle system if I could change the party leader during battle. The reason FFXIII is frowned upon is because many elements that made Final Fantasy well...... Final Fantasy were removed. The only things that remained were the Chocobo's, and names: spell names, and character names, monster names. But what about side quest? Pretty much gone, until you get to pulse, and even then its only monster hunting. The puzzle solving? Gone. Airships? While there in concept, you never get to control it to go to areas of your choice, its only there for story progression. Exporing the world? Nope, the game is a train track till you get to Pulse and even still its pretty confined. NPC interaction? Barely there, walk close to a character to hear what thier saying (lots of bad voice acting). Any improvements that were made to the FF title were obscured by what they (stupidly) decided to omit, maybe if Square-Enix stops wasting disc space on grapics, they might be able to incorperate the elements that the fans have come to love and expect again. Cause thats what it seems like is happening now, thier focusing on graphics and looks and its taking up so much space on the discs that theres no room for a world exporation, actual side quests that take place over the course of the entire game, as well as side events that effect what happens further down the road.


 
So in other words you're looking for Final Fantasy I-2, with 3-bit graphics and the exact same gameplay as the original few games? :V

In regards to the battle system, the fact that you couldn't choose other party members' actions is why you had to think hard about which character you made your leader; you need to make sure that they had the right set of roles.  While you can't change the actual person who leads the party (which means you're more invested in a particular character at a given time, perhaps as a means of heightened engagement with the game), you can change the role of the leader, which means you are free to do what you would have done by changing the person.  It made the battle system challenging.


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## thoron (Jul 12, 2011)

Genumix said:


> So in other words you're looking for Final Fantasy I-2, with 3-bit graphics and the exact same gameplay as the original few games? :V
> 
> In regards to the battle system, the fact that you couldn't choose other party members' actions is why you had to think hard about which character you made your leader; you need to make sure that they had the right set of roles.  While you can't change the actual person who leads the party (which means you're more invested in a particular character at a given time, perhaps as a means of heightened engagement with the game), you can change the role of the leader, which means you are free to do what you would have done by changing the person.  It made the battle system challenging.


 
I'm not looking for that level of graphics, what I mean is that it seems like as the graphics get better, the game content gets smaller. Yes, the battle system was impressive, yes, the story was impressive, yes, the graphics were impressive. The problem is that was all the game really had to offer, I'm not asking for the same level of side quests that was in FFXII, but give me something, and I'd like to be able to explore the world a bit, not follow a train track, its a common trend in games these days. It just feels like RPG gaming has been getting dumbed down interms of field interaction, because players don't have the patience or interest to deal with anything besides the main plot. RPGs are to me at least known for side areas, side quests, side stories. Basically what I miss is variations in outcomes at the end of the game based on actions taken earlier, I'm not talking about multiple ending, I'm talking about because you were nice to NPC A at the start of the game it results in getting something that makes the battles at the end of the games easier or more interesting. Choices, thats what I want in RPGs, the actions you take at various points the game come back to help or hinder you in some way.


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## Genumix (Jul 12, 2011)

thoron said:


> I'm not looking for that level of graphics, what I mean is that it seems like as the graphics get better, the game content gets smaller. Yes, the battle system was impressive, yes, the story was impressive, yes, the graphics were impressive. The problem is that was all the game really had to offer, I'm not asking for the same level of side quests that was in FFXII, but give me something, and I'd like to be able to explore the world a bit, not follow a train track, its a common trend in games these days. It just feels like RPG gaming has been getting dumbed down interms of field interaction, because players don't have the patience or interest to deal with anything besides the main plot. RPGs are to me at least known for side areas, side quests, side stories. Basically what I miss is variations in outcomes at the end of the game based on actions taken earlier, I'm not talking about multiple ending, I'm talking about because you were nice to NPC A at the start of the game it results in getting something that makes the battles at the end of the games easier or more interesting. Choices, thats what I want in RPGs, the actions you take at various points the game come back to help or hinder you in some way.


I see what you mean.  I didn't pay much attention to it, but I did sometimes hope for more field interaction.  And as far as choices affecting your gameplay, *Bioshock* =D

I also have a problem with dumbing down _anything_ for an audience because they're unwilling to put in any effort to be a good audience.  I don't believe XIII did that; instead, I think it shifted the focus of the viewer from gameplay to the narrative.  Maybe the devs' logic was that, if the gameplay isn't as engaging, then you're more able to engage in the thought and emotional sides of the work?


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## CaptainCool (Jul 15, 2011)

anyone hyped for final fantasy versus XIII? you know, one of the only good games they seem to be making right now?
well too bad, because the game has not entered full production yet/ :V
but dont worry! we still have Theatrhythm Final Fantasy for the 3DS! a rythm based game! that will be SO awesome! :V

are they deliberately trying to piss off their fans? >_>


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## Ibuuyk (Jul 15, 2011)

CaptainCool said:


> anyone hyped for final fantasy versus XIII? you know, one of the only good games they seem to be making right now?
> well too bad, because the game has not entered full production yet/ :V
> but dont worry! we still have Theatrhythm Final Fantasy for the 3DS! a rythm based game! that will be SO awesome! :V
> 
> are they deliberately trying to piss off their fans? >_>



Well, I'm actually eager to play Theatrhythm.  I mean, I liked Elite Beat Agents >.>


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## Genumix (Jul 15, 2011)

CaptainCool said:


> anyone hyped for final fantasy versus XIII? you know, one of the only good games they seem to be making right now?
> well too bad, because the game has not entered full production yet/ :V
> but dont worry! we still have Theatrhythm Final Fantasy for the 3DS! a rythm based game! that will be SO awesome! :V
> 
> are they deliberately trying to piss off their fans? >_>


 
UGH.  If I wasn't also excited for XIII-2, I'd be really upset.


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## CaptainCool (Jul 15, 2011)

Genumix said:


> UGH.  If I wasn't also excited for XIII-2, I'd be really upset.


 
i cant be excited for a game thats the sequel to one of the shittiest games i have ever played...


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## Melazzee (Jul 16, 2011)

They failed with Final Fantasy 13. It could have been so good, it was beautiful, but they ruined it with it being completely linear and on a straight path throughout most of the game. And the new Final Fantasy 13 they're bringing out... I hate how much they flaunt Lightening and her sister around, they really aren't amazing characters, they don't deserve a whole new game of their own. I wish they had at least included the male cast as well. I liked some of those better, they had better character and personality.


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## CaptainCool (Jul 16, 2011)

Melazzee said:


> They failed with Final Fantasy 13. It could have been so good, it was beautiful, but they ruined it with it being completely linear and on a straight path throughout most of the game. And the new Final Fantasy 13 they're bringing out... I hate how much they flaunt Lightening and her sister around, they really aren't amazing characters, they don't deserve a whole new game of their own. I wish they had at least included the male cast as well. I liked some of those better, they had better character and personality.


 
personally i would have loved it if they had given fang her own game^^ now THAT would have been awesome, she was by far my favorite character in the game!

but yeah, they failed big time with 13  i couldnt bring myself to finish that crap... its rare that i dont like anything about a game :T the gameplay sucked, the level progression sucked, the plot sucked, most of the characters sucked... i wish they would make a rather traditional final fantasy again. id forgive a bad plot but i want the gameplay to be fun at least!


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## Zydala (Jul 17, 2011)

SO HEY I never linked that stupid article because when I was gonna post it the power went out for five days no joke

http://kotaku.com/5803573/a-planet-without-square+enix

It's a loooooong article but definitely interesting and a great read. I might have liked XIII but what they say about it not being a next-gen game is pretty accurate.

Highlights: SE doesn't invest in risk-taking anymore, loses the talent that made them popular, try to assemble games without making them 'uniform', and they have a fanbase that couldn't be less interested in what they're making now and only want what got them interested in the first place (i.e. "remake final fantasy VII plz") and it's SE that 'manufactured' their fanbase that way; the last point kind of overlaps with the first one because they can never find new things for people to enjoy


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 21, 2011)

Perverted Impact said:


> Yuji Horii has the rights for Dragon Quest. So I'm pretty sure Square-Enix can't do anything without Horii's permission.



Like asking him to develop them, if they're not spinoffs, seeing as Yuji Horii's actually working on Dragon Quest X right now, and was the Scenario writer *and* Game designer of Dragon Quest VIII and IX...


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## jcfynx (Jul 21, 2011)

Final Fantasy 13 sold more than 6,000,000 units; the market has spoken, it must be one of the best games.


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## Genumix (Jul 21, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Final Fantasy 13 sold more than 6,000,000 units; the market has spoken, it must be one of the best games.


Numbers and facts mean nothing compared to what's said by a vocal minority. :V


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## Cocobanana (Jul 21, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Final Fantasy 13 sold more than 6,000,000 units; the market has spoken, it must be one of the best games.



I guess the best games out there are movie licensed ones since they keep making them.


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## Digitalpotato (Jul 21, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> Final Fantasy 13 sold more than 6,000,000 units; the market has spoken, it must be one of the best games.



There are plenty of people who liked games like Final Fantasy 13.

They just feel no need to scream about them on the internet.


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## jcfynx (Jul 21, 2011)

_You're not enjoying your game the right way!
Here, let me show you what you should enjoy!_


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## Genumix (Jul 22, 2011)

jcfynx said:


> _You're not enjoying your game the right way!
> Here, let me show you what you should enjoy!_


I would be ever so grateful if you showed me what I should be enjoying.


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## thoron (Jul 22, 2011)

Melazzee said:


> They failed with Final Fantasy 13. It could have been so good, it was beautiful, but they ruined it with it being completely linear and on a straight path throughout most of the game. And the new Final Fantasy 13 they're bringing out... I hate how much they flaunt Lightening and her sister around, they really aren't amazing characters, they don't deserve a whole new game of their own. I wish they had at least included the male cast as well. I liked some of those better, they had better character and personality.



At least Square-Enix is making up for the sin of linear game play that was in FFXIII with a FFXIII-2, according to GameInformer, theres a lot more branching with differnet endings, not like a secret ending like X-2, but more along the lines of actions through out the game affect the ending itself. I don't know about the whole cast yet aside from Lightning, Serah, and whats his face, I can't remember his name right now. Based on the reviews I've seen so far, it won't be as much of a disapointment as the first. Hopefuly anyway.


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