# Trans Rights are human rights and I am gonna echo this message for the people in the back



## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

So as the title says boom Trans Rights are Human Rights, and don't you come in here trying to say "well no one was arguing or disagreeing with that" BS because we know damn well that isn't true based on the demeanor and attitude of certain individuals in this fandom on this forum and elsewhere.

Stop trying to minimize and down play shit, and to take from my post elsewhere because why reinvent the wheel when I have it right here:

To say something is just a "joke" does not suddenly cleanse it of the issue with it like the bs with i identify as helicopter crap it is still transphobic
To jump into a thread about a group and directing positivity towards and for that group only to "all lives matter" it is not the good look that you may think it is quite the opposite as  that is a form of downplaying what it is meant for.
To be an apologist of transphobes transphobic actions sentiments and shit isnt a good look and makes you nearly just as culpable of it yourself.
To try and tell those within a group that something isnt phobic towards them isnt your place because you have no authority on that manner.

this is all to say that, because it is beyond this scope of "don't be so upset just because of a "joke" or "because theye were mean to you" " like it is because this crap is everywhere and people will excuse it join in on it be apologists trying to reduce it and say it isnt what it is. Hell the fucking gaslighting others do trying to say that no one isnt accepting you or theyll start denying the lack of equal rights the trans community faces.

So yeah fuck the transphobes, their apologists, defenders, and reductionists.


The reason by the way this is all being said is because there are people guilty of these things who frame it as because theyre friends of someone you dont understand dot dot dot this and that. like no stop being an apologist for bad takes and be better.

Trans Rights Are Human Rights and if you disagree with that you can eat a bag of hammered dog shit.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

The fact that these kind of threads keep getting locked is really sad. We are just trying to be positive.

~*Good vibes barrier, all trolls may not pass*~


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## TR273 (Nov 18, 2020)

I agree with all of the above.
I've met plenty of trans folk in this fandom and I think they are all really neat people.


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## TyraWadman (Nov 18, 2020)

A lot of people seem to be forgetting that, while _they_ personally might not be transphobic, that doesn't mean _other_ people (especially offline) have been so generous.


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## Ramjet (Nov 18, 2020)

Alot of these threads popping up...

Agree wholeheartedly that there isn't a thing wrong with being transgender, and trans rights are human rights.

Full Stop.

I do see alot of the other side of the spectrum though, that alot on here are using the "AH HA gotcha card, you must be transphobic" for the only reason *to me* to score some online points and nothing to do with actual hate, or transphobia.

Equality is exactly that, it doesn't grant you special rights over others, it should be a desire to be seen on the same level.

These continual threads popping up reminds me of a study done on the T community...
Which would be interesting to replicate here as the source of the study where it was done is a little suspect.









						The frequency of personality disorders in patients with gender identity disorder
					

Background: Co-morbid psychiatric disorders affect prognosis, psychosocial adjustment and post-surgery satisfaction in patients with gender identity disorder. In this paper, we assessed the frequency of personality disorders in Iranian GID patients.  Methods: ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

Ramjet556 said:


> that alot on here are using the "AH HA gotcha card, you must be transphobic" for the only reason *to me* to score some online points and nothing to do with actual hate, or transphobia.


And who here exactly is doing this?


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## Fallowfox (Nov 18, 2020)

I can't help but feel Ramjet has a political reason to link a piece of research insinuating that the majority of transgender people have narcissistic personality disorders, in order to amplify negative stereotypes about them.

The fact this study had no control group, and was conducted in the Islamic Republic of Iran, should perhaps be considered too, before reaching a conclusion. It might be prudent to read the literature more widely here.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> The fact this study had no control group, and was conducted in the Islamic Republic of Iran, should perhaps be considered too, before reaching a conclusion. It might be prudent to read the literature more widely here.


hmmm


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 18, 2020)

Mods. Stop locking threads about trans rights. Bad look.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Mods. Stop locking threads about trans rights. Bad look.


^This. Every trans thread keeps getting locked when we are just trying to spread positivity. If you keep doing this, it looks kinda sus


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## luffy (Nov 18, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> ^This. Every trans thread keeps getting locked when we are just trying to spread positivity. If you keep doing this, it looks kinda sus


We don't lock because of the content subject, we lock because of the content.  Which is typically toxic because some people tend to care (for some reason) about what others do with their personal lives. \: I really fail to see the point in being so vehemently against someone just trying to live their life the way they want.

Anyway, I'm sorry we lock some of the topics, but most (with one being recent) tend to start wholesome and then end in a mod spending 30-45 min removing content that is completely derailed/harassing/malicious/transphobic.  Typically when a thread gets to that point there is little room to turn back, so it gets closed.  I understand the frustration.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 18, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> I can't help but feel Ramjet has a political reason to link a piece of research insinuating that the majority of transgender people have narcissistic personality disorders, in order to amplify negative stereotypes about them.
> 
> The fact this study had no control group, and was conducted in the Islamic Republic of Iran, should perhaps be considered too, before reaching a conclusion. It might be prudent to read the literature more widely here.



To clarify here, the reason is because Iran's social situation regarding transgender identity is highly unusual, and people willing to seek gender reassignment surgery in Iran may not be representative of average transgender people more broadly. 

I don't want to give the impression here that the researcher being Iranian means they are biased; these potential problems with the methodology are  pointed out by the researcher themself.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

I would like to interject here that this thread is not created to spur debate nor will I debate anyone here if they have differing, or more accurately, wrong opinions on this subject because you can have wrong opinions.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

luffy said:


> We don't lock because of the content subject, we lock because of the content.  Which is typically toxic because some people tend to care (for some reason) about what others do with their personal lives. \: I really fail to see the point in being so vehemently against someone just trying to live their life the way they want.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sorry we lock some of the topics, but most (with one being recent) tend to start wholesome and then end in a mod spending 30-45 min removing content that is completely derailed/harassing/malicious/transphobic.  Typically when a thread gets to that point there is little room to turn back, so it gets closed.  I understand the frustration.


Well the last thread was locked with a simple, "We will continue enforcing the terms of service" or something like that when the thread didn't even get toxic yet. :/


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## ConorHyena (Nov 18, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> ^This. Every trans thread keeps getting locked when we are just trying to spread positivity. If you keep doing this, it looks kinda sus



I think the mods aren't locking the threads about trans rights because they're threads about trans rights, I think the mods be locking them because the last one I remember ended in a massive shitfest with everyone getting their asses baited by a certain ex-member. Which is something we all can influence - don't feed the trolls. Just ignore and report them when they turn up. If you start a massive fight and devolve the entire thread into name-calling, then at some point the mods are gonna shut down the drama regardless of the topic or who is in the right and in the wrong. I wouldn't call that suspicios - it's the way 99% of the forums in this world are run.



VeeStars said:


> Well the last thread was locked with a simple, "We will continue enforcing the terms of service" or something like that when the thread didn't even get toxic yet. :/



Which one are you referring to?


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I think the mods aren't locking the threads about trans rights because they're threads about trans rights, I think the mods be locking them because the last one I remember ended in a massive shitfest with everyone getting their asses baited by a certain ex-member. Which is something we all can influence - don't feed the trolls. Just ignore and report them when they turn up. If you start a massive fight and devolve the entire thread into name-calling, then at some point the mods are gonna shut down the drama regardless of the topic or who is in the right and in the wrong. I wouldn't call that suspicios - it's the way 99% of the forums in this world are run.


That was the one before last one. The last one didn't even get toxic before it was shut down :/


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## The-Courier (Nov 18, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I think the mods aren't locking the threads about trans rights because they're threads about trans rights, I think the mods be locking them because the last one I remember ended in a massive shitfest with everyone getting their asses baited by a certain ex-member. Which is something we all can influence - don't feed the trolls. Just ignore and report them when they turn up. If you start a massive fight and devolve the entire thread into name-calling, then at some point the mods are gonna shut down the drama regardless of the topic or who is in the right and in the wrong. I wouldn't call that suspicios - it's the way 99% of the forums in this world are run.


I was about to say this. Mods aren't locking this because of the subject matter of the thread; they're locking it because it either immediately or quickly falls into political debate, which is not allowed here.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 18, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> That was the one before last one. The last one didn't even get toxic before it was shut down :/


if you can provide me with a link that would be very decent, just out of curiosty.


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I think the mods aren't locking the threads about trans rights because they're threads about trans rights, I think the mods be locking them because the last one I remember ended in a massive shitfest with everyone getting their asses baited by a certain ex-member. Which is something we all can influence - don't feed the trolls. Just ignore and report them when they turn up. If you start a massive fight and devolve the entire thread into name-calling, then at some point the mods are gonna shut down the drama regardless of the topic or who is in the right and in the wrong. I wouldn't call that suspicios - it's the way 99% of the forums in this world are run.
> 
> 
> 
> Which one are you referring to?


You are correct in that's how it's run, but consider that it wasn't exactly overflowing with toxicity. It was one user causing squabbles and we didn't really retaliate. Even tried to stop the problem before it started.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 18, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> That was the one before last one. The last one didn't even get toxic before it was shut down :/


found it


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

That one was just closed with:
"We will continue to enforce the Code of Conduct as appropriate. Thank you."


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## Flamingo (Nov 18, 2020)

I locked it to catch up with all of the reports generated from it.  it is unlocked at this time.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 18, 2020)

I just wish trans people was more like RedSavage. She's so based


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## Flamingo (Nov 18, 2020)

Oh? Who is that?  what makes you feel that way?


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 18, 2020)

Yes! Trans rights are human rights, and transphobia is bad.
Sometimes some trans individuals misinterpret (or in worst cases, misrepresent) things though. Them being trans doesn't make those misinterpretations (misrepresentations?) correct. Oh, and clarifying those misinterpretations is not being an 'apologist' or 'reductionist for transphobia'.

Oh, and I'd very much be happy to not address this thread at all, but it's not me who keeps derailing these threads into baseless transphobia accusations (and it's the baseless ones I'm addressing). When a person says that they aren't transphobic nor pushing transphobia, I recommend you accept it and move on, lest you derail your own thread into nastiness. People don't really enjoy when someone desperately tries to paint them as X-phobe, it's actually pretty offensive.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Sometimes some trans individuals misinterpret (or in worst cases, misrepresent) things though. Them being trans doesn't make those misinterpretations (misrepresentations?) correct. Oh, and clarifying those misinterpretations is not being an 'apologist' or 'reductionist for transphobia'.
> 
> Oh, and I'd very much be happy to not address this thread at all, but it's not me who keeps derailing these threads into baseless transphobia accusations (and it's the baseless ones I'm addressing). When a person says that they aren't transphobic nor pushing transphobia, I recommend you accept it and move on, lest you derail your own thread into nastiness. People don't really enjoy when someone desperately tries to paint them as X-phobe, it's actually pretty offensive.


*sigh* Ding dong your opinion is wrong

Again there will be no debate you have no say in what is or isnt transphobic you can either listen to people who point it out that are trans or you can be an apologist and reductionist.
Improve and be better or continue miring yourself in shit.

Just for clarity there is no debate here you are just wrong and you could have not even entered this thread that had not named any individuals and only outlined what actions may or may not be x y or z so you coming into this thread defensively shows you feel some kind of way.

No Debate.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 18, 2020)

Flamingo said:


> Oh? Who is that?  what makes you feel that way?


The coolest trans woman to have graced the furry community. Smart, funny and charming. She can make literal Nazi transphobes want to have tea with her. I'm not exaggerating


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## inkbloom (Nov 18, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The coolest trans woman to have graced the furry community. Smart, funny and charming. She can make literal Nazi transphobes want to have tea with her. I'm not exaggerating


I looked them up and it seems like they passed away some time ago during a car accident. It's truly tragic to see someone's life end so early. My condolences to anyone who knew her.


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## Ramjet (Nov 18, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> I can't help but feel Ramjet has a political reason to link a piece of research insinuating that the majority of transgender people have narcissistic personality disorders, in order to amplify negative stereotypes about them.
> 
> The fact this study had no control group, and was conducted in the Islamic Republic of Iran, should perhaps be considered too, before reaching a conclusion. It might be prudent to read the literature more widely here.



Nah mate, just my observational approach of what I'm getting from some users on these threads.
Also coming from someone who lived with a NPD partner for 4 years....

Also I was quite clear about the studies potential bias *considering the origin*, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but there are other studies pointing to similar consensus.
Also have a sister in Psych, her transgender patients are disproportionately diagnosed *vs other non transgender patients* with borderline disorders.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 18, 2020)

LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> you have no say in what is or isnt transphobic


You have no place to say *this *yourself



LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> Improve and be better or continue miring yourself in shit.


I don't see much wrong with what I'm doing, I do strongly disagree with what you are doing though.



LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> Just for clarity there is no debate here you are just wrong and you could have not even entered this thread that had not named any individuals and only outlined what actions may or may not be x y or z so you coming into this thread defensively shows you feel some kind of way.


Yes, I do admit I feel some way. I despise what happened in that previous thread, and I despise these kinds of misrepresentations. You are being specific enough for most here to have a very clear idea of what and who you are talking about. You want to talk about general problem? Then you need to do vaguer than what you did. You called out some fairly specific things and made some pretty strong accusations.


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## Izzy4895 (Nov 18, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Mods. Stop locking threads about trans rights. Bad look.


Permaban the people making the bigoted remarks instead.


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

I think I've said we should keep things civil, guys. Supposed to be a good natured thread.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> You have no place to say *this *yourself
> 
> 
> I don't see much wrong with what I'm doing, I do strongly disagree with what you are doing though.
> ...


*sigh* Ding dong your opinion is wrong

Again there will be no debate you have no say in what is or isnt transphobic you can either listen to people who point it out that are trans or you can be an apologist and reductionist.
Improve and be better or continue miring yourself in shit.

Again I didn't name anyone but if these actions are accurate to describe someone then that someone probably just fits the bill that is not my fault if they actively participate in such behavior.

You won't get a debate here just the same rehash from me. So either shut your trap and walk away, or sing a different tune.

No Debate.


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> You have no place to say *this *yourself
> 
> 
> I don't see much wrong with what I'm doing, I do strongly disagree with what you are doing though.
> ...


Why are you picking fights in here? Just leave it alone.

If they have a problem, they can come say it privately. Not airing dirty laundry in public.

Let's all just calm down before this place gets locked up.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 18, 2020)

LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> Again I didn't name anyone but if these actions are accurate to describe someone then that someone probably just fits the bill that is not my fault if they actively participate in such behavior.


Ok sure! It doesn't fit me or my friend 
I'm happy to leave it at this


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Ok sure! It doesn't fit me or my friend
> I'm happy to leave it at this


Yes, leave it be, now.


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 18, 2020)

Communication consists of a sender and a recipient. The sender must translate their message into words (or whatever medium is being used) and the recipient then has to interpret those words into a perceived message. Ideally those messages will be fairly close, but things like cultural differences, vocabulary, and mood can all get in the way of that.

Sometimes people say things that come off as bigoted (whether it be transphobic, homophobic, racist, etc) with no malice. Sure. It happens, especially since generally speaking people outside a minority group will not have a complete understanding of the challenges that group faces. And when they say they meant no harm _and attempt to avoid repeating the same mistakes going forward_, it may be time to cut them some slack.

That, however, also requires the people who said something that didn’t come off the way they meant it to have enough humility to, _at minimum_, say “I’m sorry; I didn’t mean any harm.” Saying “actually what I just said wasn’t offensive” is not how you earn the benefit of the doubt. 

I’m not trying to say anything about who is or isn’t right or wrong here; I’m making an observation about the nature of communication and how when sometimes people fuck up, it’s important to own that fuck-up and learn from it. And to allow  people who own their fuck-ups to learn from them and do better going forward.

I don’t think it’s necessarily productive to drag up old threads, as long as any inappropriate behavior in those threads stays there. (Patterns of behavior are a different matter, but even then it’s something better brought to staff’s attention than aired publicly.) No one wins if shitty behavior in thread A gets that thread closed and then gets carried over into thread B, rinse, repeat, yanno?


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 18, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> Communication consists of a sender and a recipient. The sender must translate their message into words (or whatever medium is being used) and the recipient then has to interpret those words into a perceived message. Ideally those messages will be fairly close, but things like cultural differences, vocabulary, and mood can all get in the way of that.
> 
> Sometimes people say things that come off as bigoted (whether it be transphobic, homophobic, racist, etc) with no malice. Sure. It happens, especially since generally speaking people outside a minority group will not have a complete understanding of the challenges that group faces. And when they say they meant no harm _and attempt to avoid repeating the same mistakes going forward_, it may be time to cut them some slack.
> 
> ...


These are good observations. Sometimes both sides feel like they are wronged though, and in that situation neither side is eager to apologize.
Forcing one side to apologize can be very counterproductive here (and actually increase resistance). Also, it's possible that both sides have faced (different kinds of) wider societal suffering.


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> These are good observations. Sometimes both sides feel like they are wronged though, and in that situation neither side is eager to apologize.
> Forcing one side to apologize can be very counterproductive here (and actually increase resistance). Also, it's possible that both sides have faced (different kinds of) wider societal suffering.


If they apologised rather than argued, accepting their transgression (intentional or otherwise), then maybe some ground would be made. But as of right now, that ain't happening.

So, as a result, the issue continues. If your friends made an effort to own up to a mistake, maybe the accusations wouldn't be flying and maybe there'd be some peace and tranquillity. I suggested that last time, but nobody bothered to listen and just took it as some kind of personal attack.

Apologising doesn't always mean you're the worst thing ever. It shows humility and a willingness to change your ways, whether you meant it or not.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Nov 18, 2020)

In the last thread we had on this subject, I said "trans validity is not dependent on surgeries or pills".

It was in the middle of the shitshow and I didn't feel like I could elaborate, and unfortunately I'm saddled with either clueless folks or affirmative echo chambers most anywhere else I'd ask, so... the fact that transphobes like to pick on those things was only part of it.  My understanding of the whole transgender movement had to do with DEFYING social norms about gender.  Unfortunately, to an outsider to this whole thing like me, surgeries and pills strike me as a "you must have these body parts and these hormones in order to be considered a man/woman" kind of statement - meaning someone who DIDN'T have those things would wind up invalid.

My impression was that the fact that certain conditions that mess with the norms (such as Swyer syndrome, where you can easily wind up with someone who LOOKS female but winds up with XY chromosomes) exist should have dispelled the "requirement" notion already, and allowed for more validity of people who didn't feel the need to do extra.

What the hell am I missing here?


....oh and I've been trying to untangle transphobic/queerphobic statements and come up with counters if I ever need them and the whole thing's kind of lodged itself in my head but I REALLY kind of don't want to discuss that here and could use a little expertise if someone wants to DM me on the whole endeavor.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 18, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> If they apologised rather than argued, accepting their transgression (intentional or otherwise), then maybe some ground would be made. But as of right now, that ain't happening.


Both sides have made transgressions, though it's probably not a good idea to derail this thread into discussing the specifics of that.
I'd rather we drop the grudges and move on.


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

FrostyTheDragon said:


> In the last thread we had on this subject, I said "trans validity is not dependent on surgeries or pills".
> 
> It was in the middle of the shitshow and I didn't feel like I could elaborate, and unfortunately I'm saddled with either clueless folks or affirmative echo chambers most anywhere else I'd ask, so... the fact that transphobes like to pick on those things was only part of it.  My understanding of the whole transgender movement had to do with DEFYING social norms about gender.  Unfortunately, to an outsider to this whole thing like me, surgeries and pills strike me as a "you must have these body parts and these hormones in order to be considered a man/woman" kind of statement.
> 
> ...


I think that you're fine to discuss it here. Don't be dissuaded.

To answer your question, no, transgender people are not required to take pills or receive surgery. It's entirely up to the person what treatments they do or do not have. The kind of people that say they are requirements really are scummy individuals.

I mean...defy them, maybe. But also to expand them and make it so that people can have the freedom to express themselves.

This is an onlooker's perspective. You could try DM-ing someone in here about it if you feel more comfortable doing that?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 18, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Both sides have made transgressions, though it's probably not a good idea to derail this thread into discussing the specifics of that.
> I'd rather we drop the grudges and move on.


Trans people have done nothing but be themselves.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 18, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Trans people have done nothing but be themselves.


Nothing wrong with being trans! More power to you! Sometimes individuals get into quarrels though ...


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## inkbloom (Nov 18, 2020)

There is a lot of "yes, but..." going on in this thread and it really hurts my heart. No matter what intentions are, that "but" can really work to invalidate everything before it. It can feel like adding exceptions to what should be a very agreeable sentiment. To me personally, it makes me feel that you're not really looking to understand, just waiting for your chance to speak. I had hoped that after three attempts now we could let sleeping dogs lie. Feelings are hurt and that's no good, but there's also been a lot of people who have suggested a clear path forward. So perhaps we try this again?



FrostyTheDragon said:


> In the last thread we had on this subject, I said "trans validity is not dependent on surgeries or pills".
> 
> It was in the middle of the shitshow and I didn't feel like I could elaborate, and unfortunately I'm saddled with either clueless folks or affirmative echo chambers most anywhere else I'd ask, so... the fact that transphobes like to pick on those things was only part of it.  My understanding of the whole transgender movement had to do with DEFYING social norms about gender.  Unfortunately, to an outsider to this whole thing like me, surgeries and pills strike me as a "you must have these body parts and these hormones in order to be considered a man/woman" kind of statement - meaning someone who DIDN'T have those things would wind up invalid.
> 
> ...


I am not trans, so I entirely defer to those who are on this matter. However, my understanding is anyone who identifies as something other than their assigned at birth gender is trans. It does not matter what that identity is or how one chooses to express it. Just as their are many different styles, personalities, and stereotypes for cis people, there are a million ways to be trans. For some, being themselves means getting surgeries or hormone treatments. It is what feels right to them. For others, less intensive modifications to look and style are enough. For others they wouldn't change a thing except what people call them. And that's all dandy! 

There will always be people who want to put their own boundaries on what words mean. This can be because of biases, misunderstandings, hatred, or ignorance. Whatever the reason, that does not make it okay. Everyone's experiences are their own and you have no idea where someone is in their own personal journey. Everyone is valid.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 18, 2020)

Flamingo said:


> Oh? Who is that?  what makes you feel that way?



RedSavage was a user who was tragically killed by a car some years ago.



Ramjet556 said:


> Nah mate, just my observational approach of what I'm getting from some users on these threads.
> Also coming from someone who lived with a NPD partner for 4 years....
> 
> Also I was quite clear about the studies potential bias *considering the origin*, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but there are other studies pointing to similar consensus.
> Also have a sister in Psych, her transgender patients are disproportionately diagnosed *vs other non transgender patients* with borderline disorders.



I'm going to level with you Ramjet. Transgender users aren't demanding special rights by expecting not to be mocked. 

When transgender users object to being mocked it's not polite to respond by saying it reminds you of studies suggesting that narcissistic personality flaws are common in transgender people.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 18, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> RedSavage was a user who was tragically killed by a car some years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## JuniperW (Nov 18, 2020)

Thank you for this thread! While I haven’t really experienced dysphoria or any other gender-related disconnect myself, I know a few people who have. It can be hard for me to understand, but in the end, the most important thing is to respect others.


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## JacobFloofWoof (Nov 18, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Trans people have done nothing but be themselves.


No, you just publicly called me a terrible person on a very personal issue that had nothing to do with you.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

Lupus Et Revertetur said:


> No, you just publicly called me a terrible person on a very personal issue that had nothing to do with you.


Not in this thread. Walk away take this gripe to another channel.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 18, 2020)

Lupus Et Revertetur said:


> No, you just publicly called me a terrible person on a very personal issue that had nothing to do with you.


Go away


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## JacobFloofWoof (Nov 18, 2020)

LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> Not in this thread. Walk away take this gripe to another channel.


I was making a very direct point, that ya'll are not infallible, but you specifically, personally, seem alright so far based on how you talked to me in past replies.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

Lupus Et Revertetur said:


> I was making a very direct point, that ya'll are not infallible, but you specifically, personally, seem alright so far based on how you talked to me in past replies.


No one was saying we are infallible. But please, I rather no more confrontational stuff in this thread because I rather it not get locked away.


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## JacobFloofWoof (Nov 18, 2020)

LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> No one was saying we are infallible. But please, I rather no more confrontational stuff in this thread because I rather it not get locked away.


np


----------



## Ramjet (Nov 18, 2020)

Fallowfox said:


> RedSavage was a user who was tragically killed by a car some years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not what I'm seeing here from some users, and you know it.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 18, 2020)

Ramjet556 said:


> That's not what I'm seeing here from some users, and you know it.


Nah I think we're just sick of getting cheeseburgered


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

There's two words in the English language that aren't being used by some people in here. They are 'I'm' and 'sorry'. When put together, it becomes 'I'm sorry'. A simple apology and an admittance of fault is all that's really being demanded.

We can either drag this out for 8 hours more and have this place locked. Or we can agree that mistakes were made by a certain party and get back to promoting acceptance and wellbeing amongst ourselves.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> There's two words in the English language that aren't being used by some people in here. They are 'I'm' and 'sorry'. When put together, it becomes 'I'm sorry'. A simple apology and an admittance of fault is all that's really being demanded.
> 
> We can either drag this out for 8 hours more and have this place locked. Or we can agree that mistakes were made by a certain party and get back to promoting acceptance and wellbeing amongst ourselves.


True, true. I'm willing to forgive people if they just grow up, admit they were wrong, and walk away. It's that simple.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 18, 2020)

This whole thread basically:


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## Attaman (Nov 18, 2020)

I'll admit that I've spent the past fifteen minutes trying to think of a witty way to introduce this matter to the subject, but honestly:
1) It doesn't deserve any sort of brevity and should be taken with all the deathly seriousness it deserves;
2) It courts the people who would like to make a mockery of the subject matter with far too much respect and meeting-in-the-middle than they deserve.

The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey.

Want to know why people take mockery of Trans people deathly seriously? Because they get _*more*_ than enough (let alone deserved) shit as-is just by _existing_, and if anyone in here whining about how they're getting superior / unequal treatment received even a tenth of the flak faced by such brothers / sisters / peers / et al they'd probably be put on watch in short order. Draw a card: If it's a Diamond, you're fired. Flip two coins: If both are heads, you were probably physically assaulted one or more times in school just for existing. Roll a six-sided die: On a 1, hope you like physical and / or sexual violence in your workplace! Pick a number between one and ten: You thinking seven? As if you were, you've - again - been assaulted one or more times _*in the last year*_ just for existing. Eight percent have suffered self-inflicted UTI, kidney infections, or other such things _within the past year_ specifically because it was _considered the favorable alternative to the likely consequences of using public restrooms if caught guilty of the crime of being them_.

The list goes on, and on, and on.

Anybody who wishes to argue that our trans peers need to "get thicker skin" and "learn to laugh" at their active belittling can fuck right on off. Anybody who argues that they're trying to get S-Class Citizenship for _hoping _(because _expecting_ is putting a bit too much faith in their peers) to have an assault rate that's not almost _*eight times that of the general population*_ can suck on a flounder.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

Attaman said:


> I'll admit that I've spent the past fifteen minutes trying to think of a witty way to introduce this matter to the subject, but honestly:
> 1) It doesn't deserve any sort of brevity and should be taken with all the deathly seriousness it deserves;
> 2) It courts the people who would like to make a mockery of the subject matter with far too much respect and meeting-in-the-middle than they deserve.
> 
> ...


Jesus, it sickens me how much these people have to go through just to exist. Before someone yells at me that I'm "virtue signaling" or whatever, I have many people I hold very close to me that are trans and enby, like my brother, who I genuinely want to make sure he can live in a world that's not constantly an ass to him.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

ASTA said:


> They keep getting locked because they're basically incognito moral purity tests that commenting users _must _past in order to not be e-jumped by the same batch of mentally deranged and utterly loathsome users who basically do fuck-all on FAF except virtue signal and witchhunt until some mod pops up, hands out a few infractions, and locks a thread.
> 
> EDIT:_ and of course_ the worst of them all would show up.


I mean really it isnt a "moral purity test" because the thing is, you COULD not jump into them. Perhaps look inward if your first thoughts are "gosh trans positivity I should jump in here and say some dumb assed insensitive shit to try and bother the trans peoples and their friends while they have tea" because that would really mean the issue lies within one self and it isnt some kinda snare to catch your pinky toe in.

Let's leave it at that because seriously you arent helping youself here.


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

This is going to go horribly South, now. So much for this place staying open and inclusive like it's supposed to be.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 18, 2020)

LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> I mean really it isnt a "moral purity test" because the thing is, you COULD not jump into them. Perhaps look inward if your first thoughts are "gosh trans positivity I should jump in here and say some dumb assed insensitive shit to try and bother the trans peoples and their friends while they have tea" because that would really mean the issue lies within one self and it isnt some kinda snare to catch your pinky toe in.
> 
> Let's leave it at that because seriously you arent helping youself here.



If I made a thread praising traditional gender roles, old-school masculinity, and a strict non-progressive definition of sex/gender, I'd have you and a handful of the usual suspects shitting up that thread within 1 hour of its initial creation. 

You aren't a saint. Stop larping as one.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

Here comes the trolls to shut down the thread because they are scared of trans people. *le sigh*


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

This is gonna cause a riot, eventually...
Or something akin to it.

Tried to keep the peace. Didn't work.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 18, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Here comes the trolls to shut down the thread because they are scared of trans people. *le sigh*



"Anyone who takes issue with me, a stance that I maintain, or something that I've done is either a troll, someone who is fearful of my immense power, or both."


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

ASTA said:


> "Anyone who takes issue with me, a stance that I maintain, or something that I've done is either a troll, someone who is fearful of my immense power, or both."


"Anyone who takes issues with me, coming onto a thread meant for trans people, to spew transphobic stuff is a mentally deranged and utterly loathsome person"


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## KD142000 (Nov 18, 2020)

It's the same old users every single time coming into these threads and causing trouble. Starting to get boring now, guys.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> It's the same old users every single time coming into these threads and causing trouble. Starting to get boring now, guys.


Seriously, don't you guys have something else to do other than to just come here to bait and troll and insult? I don't know how you guys are allowed to just do whatever you want here.


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

ASTA said:


> If I made a thread praising traditional gender roles, old-school masculinity, and a strict non-progressive definition of sex/gender, I'd have you and a handful of the usual suspects shitting up that thread within 1 hour of its initial creation.
> 
> You aren't a saint. Stop larping as one.




Lol imagine being so daft that you don't know what the thread is really about.
Go farther to think you have a something by stopping your points at elementary school level learning because you seem to think "non progressive"  definition of sex and gender is in any form applicable when it never truly has been at all and science has vastly weighed in saying, ding dong you're wrong.
When you come into a thread about trans rights being human rights and act like a piss baby because "what about me what about the cis" when the news flash here is you have equal rights and the trans community... still doesn't.


To think I would proclaim myself a fucking Saint when I am much closer to a Satanist since at least if we are bringing religious terms into this the Satanic Temple may actually be the counter force needed to curb certain archaic and draconian lines of thought and legislation.


So piss baby Shitler why don't you goose step your little ass on out of here with your Bullshit and go cry to your priest or some shit


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## Lucyfur (Nov 18, 2020)

And again @ASTA there is no debate here you are simply wrong and a petulant bubble of puss on the ass of society.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 18, 2020)

LucyTheDumbYeen said:


> And again @ASTA there is no debate here you are simply wrong and a petulant bubble of puss on the ass of society.



Stay mad baby.

Where's my hug?

We can make up right here right now.


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## Attaman (Nov 18, 2020)

To now attempt to introduce some on-topic levity, and as a reminder that we're currently in the middle / tail-end of Transgender Remembrance week, I'd like to give a brief shout out to the Human Rights Campaign and some of the events it's been hosting. Tomorrow at approximately 2pm EST, for example, will be a webinar on non-binary identities.

The HuRi Campaign is just one example of events going on currently, for reference, and I'd also like to take the opportunity to plug / remind people that the FAF community has recently started striving to make something of a resource for our Trans (and LGBTQ+ as a whole) members.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 18, 2020)

Gotta love when FaF puts on the facade of being progressive and inclusive then invites horrible people back who only cause trouble for those just trying to live their lives.


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## VeeStars (Nov 18, 2020)

Attaman said:


> To now attempt to introduce some on-topic levity, and as a reminder that we're currently in the middle / tail-end of Transgender Remembrance week, I'd like to give a brief shout out to the Human Rights Campaign and some of the events it's been hosting. Tomorrow at approximately 2pm EST, for example, will be a webinar on non-binary identities.
> 
> The HuRi Campaign is just one example of events going on currently, for reference, and I'd also like to take the opportunity to plug / remind people that the FAF community has recently started striving to make something of a resource for our Trans (and LGBTQ+ as a whole) members.


Ah, I can't believe I didn't hear about this week! すみません！！！


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## Eremurus (Nov 18, 2020)

Posting before thread lock.


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## ConorHyena (Nov 19, 2020)

We'd at least make some headway if people would realize that people's gender orientation (them being trans or not) doesn't necessarily impact on how they are as a person. You can be a dick and be trans or cis or whatever - but that doesn't justify devaluing them for being trans_, or trans people as a whole. _

In the end we're all here to have fun, if you dislike someone's approach, just simply leave them be.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Nov 19, 2020)

Hmm.... personally, I do see trans rights as human rights, in a lot of ways..... and I've never had any qualms about people's various orientations, as none of it really bothers me..... but - (at the same time), I do think it's also a bit naive as well, to suggest that trans individuals do not present some confusing situations, for those that are unaccustomed (and unaware) of the complexities of the issues (both biologically and socially) - that many of these individuals are facing.

And so, for example - calling someone the label "sir" who visually appears to be a male, (may not necessarily be intended to be used - in a derogatory fashion, by the user using it) towards a trans person they see - if that's what they appear to physically be..... and in all fairness, the other person doesn't necessarily know the details of their particular situation, and may not know that using certain labels is a sensitive issue.

And thus, I think that getting angry, (and possibly) violently confrontational, (with someone that may "offend" us) - often times does little to assuage people's confusion..... and in turn, can make a "sticky situation" even uglier, than it already is.

Thus I always say that "education" (with a bit less of a confrontational attitude, and some tact), is often times the better route to go through - with many people that simply don't know any better.



Ovidia Dragoness said:


> Gotta love when FaF puts on the facade of being progressive and inclusive then invites horrible people back who only cause trouble for those just trying to live their lives.


@Ovidia Dragoness You're free to leave at any time, if you wish. As - being "progressive and inclusive" (one could argue) includes inviting people into the fold - that you (and others you know) may not necessarily agree with, or be in lockstep with.... to espouse their opinions within the rules also.


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## Fallowfox (Nov 19, 2020)

If somebody's opinion is that it is acceptable to bully people because of their sex, gender, race or religion that is explicitly outside of the site rules. 

There is a false attitude in the background here that, in order to be inclusive, folks have to accept derisive commentary or bullying; as if bullies are themselves a minority who deserve to be included.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2020)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm.... personally, I do see trans rights as human rights, in a lot of ways..... and I've never had any qualms about people's various orientations, as none of it really bothers me..... but - (at the same time), I do think it's also a bit naive as well, to suggest that trans individuals do not present some confusing situations, for those that are unaccustomed (and unaware) of the complexities of the issues (both biologically and socially) - that many of these individuals are facing.
> 
> And so, for example - calling someone the label "sir" who visually appears to be a male, (may not necessarily be intended to be used - in a derogatory fashion, by the user using it) towards a trans person they see - if that's what they appear to physically be..... and in all fairness, the other person doesn't necessarily know the details of their particular situation, and may not know that using certain labels is a sensitive issue.
> 
> ...


I forget the correct phrasing but inclusiveness can't include everyone. Because then you get a group that wants to destroy another just for existing then they are gone. Replaced by the horrible group.


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## Attaman (Nov 19, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> I forget the correct phrasing but inclusiveness can't include everyone. Because then you get a group that wants to destroy another just for existing then they are gone. Replaced by the horrible group.


The two main ones are “Paradox of Tolerance” (you can not tolerate everything as that invariably includes intolerance, as at that point you’re platforming and defending some degree of intolerance as acceptable), and the “Neo-Nazi Punk Bar” Anecdote (you cannot allow extremists into your spaces, as they will invariably invite more whilst making old regulars uncomfortable / unsafe and leave).

Same principle with Transphobia. Once you give the go-ahead for jokes that mock gender identity and trans identities / orientations, you’ve both admitted that this is a matter open for debate, for some degree of hate / vitriol, and opened the door for stronger “jokes” (such as the recent escalation from “lol Helicopter” jokes to “These jokes are quantum jokes depending on who I’m talking to” to “You’re forcing your opinions on us to respect pronouns” to the most recent “You aren’t either trans or your expressed identity without government documentation AND full post-OP”, which - to go back to the Survey linked earlier - is a whistle implicating that more than 2/3 of Trans individuals in the US are faking it / wrong).


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> And so, for example - calling someone the label "sir" who visually appears to be a male, (may not necessarily be intended to be used - in a derogatory fashion, by the user using it) towards a trans person they see - if that's what they appear to physically be..... and in all fairness, the other person doesn't necessarily know the details of their particular situation, and may not know that using certain labels is a sensitive issue.
> 
> And thus, I think that getting angry, (and possibly) violently confrontational, (with someone that may "offend" us) - often times does little to assuage people's confusion..... and in turn, can make a "sticky situation" even uglier, than it already is.
> 
> Thus I always say that "education" (with a bit less of a confrontational attitude, and some tact), is often times the better route to go through - with many people that simply don't know any better.


I just saw on Instagram a post that said "sometimes, we accost and punish others for not seeing or assuming our good intentions, when we could, instead, take it upon ourselves to be more clear in communicating our intent and inviting feedback".  This can apply to lots of situations, but particularly here I think it fits pretty well. Yes, getting confrontational towards people is likely to make them respond negatively in turn, but it is also not a trans persons responsibility to assume good intent, particularly when there's so much bad intent in the world. And there are times when trans people are polite, gently reminding others of pronouns and how certain things might be hurtful, and they still get attacked because the other person hasn't opened themselves to hearing that feedback.

Even if it's an honest to god mistake, no harm meant, one person can't fix the problem on their own. We have to put that education out in the world and the world has to be open to hearing it.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Hmm.... personally, I do see trans rights as human rights, in a lot of ways..... and I've never had any qualms about people's various orientations, as none of it really bothers me..... but - (at the same time), I do think it's also a bit naive as well, to suggest that trans individuals do not present some confusing situations, for those that are unaccustomed (and unaware) of the complexities of the issues (both biologically and socially) - that many of these individuals are facing.
> 
> And so, for example - calling someone the label "sir" who visually appears to be a male, (may not necessarily be intended to be used - in a derogatory fashion, by the user using it) towards a trans person they see - if that's what they appear to physically be..... and in all fairness, the other person doesn't necessarily know the details of their particular situation, and may not know that using certain labels is a sensitive issue.
> 
> And thus, I think that getting angry, (and possibly) violently confrontational, (with someone that may "offend" us) - often times does little to assuage people's confusion..... and in turn, can make a "sticky situation" even uglier, than it already is.


I don't think many trans people get angry if you accidentally misgender them, once. I know the video you are referencing here, and in that video, the person misgendering continued to do it which is a little upsetting. If someone corrects you, please correct yourself, and if you happen to get it wrong on accident, correct yourself as soon as possible. If you are unsure of someone's pronouns, just ask them. It's really not that hard. It will take you less than the time it took for me to write this.



Connor J. Coyote said:


> @Ovidia Dragoness You're free to leave at any time, if you wish. As - being "progressive and inclusive" (one could argue) includes inviting people into the fold - that you (and others you know) may not necessarily agree with, or be in lockstep with.... to espouse their opinions within the rules also.


That's not how it works. Being inclusive means putting everyone on an equal footing and not discriminating based on aspects people can't change about themselves. You can't choose to be trans. You can choose to stop being a transphobe. 

As Martin Luther King Jr once famously said, "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." You don't get judged based on race, religion, gender, sexuality, etc. but you can get judged if you have a bad character. People who have bad characters can fix and change themselves for the better.


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## Saokymo (Nov 19, 2020)

What’s so complicated about “treat everyone with respect,” especially in regards to minority groups like transgender folk? There should be no “but” to that concept, yet here we are. Basic respect for a person’s identity shouldn’t be a radical leftist stance, and we shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to “include” bigots who refuse to abide by that simple idea. (Though from experience, bigots like that tend to forcibly insert themselves into every conversation & just make problems for everyone.)


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Saokymo said:


> What’s so complicated about “treat everyone with respect,” especially in regards to minority groups like transgender folk? There should be no “but” to that concept, yet here we are. Basic respect for a person’s identity shouldn’t be a radical leftist stance, and we shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to “include” bigots who refuse to abide by that simple idea.


It really is that simple, but people just can't fathom the idea that...t-trans people are HUMAN BEINGS

:OOOOOOO



Saokymo said:


> (Though from experience, bigots like that tend to forcibly insert themselves into every conversation & just make problems for everyone.)


As proven by this experiment into trying to create a space for trans people. A certain bunch just keep trying to intrude ^^


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)




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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> View attachment 94270


Thanks for contributing to the discussion buddy, really appreciate it.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Thanks for contributing to the discussion buddy, really appreciate it.


you welcome homie


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> you welcome homie


Not like your like the 5th person to post a random image that doesn't contribute anything -_-


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 19, 2020)

While I support as many people as I disregard, I also am a supporter of free speech and freedom for people not to give a shit about the mentioned speech.
Yet nothing is black and white and speak about any topic can be manipulated depending on the tone of the voice itself.

I tend to joke a lot about trans, blacks, jews and all kind of other stuff, often pushing the limits of good manners. Yet I support their rights to the extend. My girlfriend is trans too so is joking around making me transphobic?

You see, many modern problems and screeching of idiots can be easily countered if you just take things with a pinch of salt.

Also if somebody is so upset over idiots such as myself laughing at the screen, the issue might be actually laying elsewhere.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> While I support as many people as I disregard, I also am a supporter of free speech and freedom for people not to give a shit about the mentioned speech.
> Yet nothing is black and white and speak about any topic can be manipulated depending on the tone of the voice itself.
> 
> I tend to joke a lot about trans, blacks, jews and all kind of other stuff, often pushing the limits of good manners. Yet I support their rights to the extend. My girlfriend is trans too so is joking around making me transphobic?
> ...


That's fine and it's clear you are probably a good person. But just joking around is not what these people, you know the ones, are doing. They've come onto spaces made for the sole purpose of trans people to support each other and lift each other up (which is not the place for dismissive jokes) and started debates and flamewars locking many threads, which is not ok.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Not like your like the 5th person to post a random image that doesn't contribute anything -_-


it doesn't really contribute anything, but then again there's not much to contribute to besides screeching and swear words galore. it's a picture of a trainwreck, you can put it together.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Nov 19, 2020)

I had a good trans friend a while back that went by the name Fowlee. He was a very talented artist who visited this forum once, and created a free art thread. After a while of talking on FAF, I invited him to my server, where we socialized and hung out on a daily basis. He was funny, and helped bring life to the place. He drew so much art for me and my friends, just out of kindness. He had an incredible sense humor, and he wasn't afraid to express it. A very down to earth and easy going person that you would have a great party with. One day I noticed he was offline longer than usual, and I haven't heard from him since, but he was a bright and shining member of our discord server, and gave me and others a lot of good memories. I hope he is still alright, wherever he is.

That's all I wanted to say in this thread for now. Carry on.


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 19, 2020)

Attaman said:


> the most recent “You aren’t either trans or your expressed identity without government documentation AND full post-OP”, which - to go back to the Survey linked earlier - is a whistle implicating that more than 2/3 of Trans individuals in the US are faking it / wrong).


This reminds me of a Twitter thread that came across my feed in the last day or two, about the difficulties trans* people in the UK face, not least with paperwork.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328994210599628801


HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> I tend to joke a lot about trans, blacks, jews and all kind of other stuff, often pushing the limits of good manners. Yet I support their rights to the extend. My girlfriend is trans too so is joking around making me transphobic?


Making off-color jokes in private around people whom you know and have an established rapport with is not much of an issue (within reason - if the jokes are being told in bad faith that’s obviously no bueno). My Jewish ex made Holocaust jokes. I joke about things with my friends and partners that I wouldn’t on a public forum.

The problem we’ve seen here, that some users are rightly pointing out, is that those jokes are being brought to a public forum. This is not the place.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> it doesn't really contribute anything, but then again there's not much to contribute to besides screeching and swear words galore. it's a picture of a trainwreck, you can put it together.


You seem to be looking over the many posts that are not screeching and swearing? Try reading the thread ._.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> That's fine and it's clear you are probably a good person. But just joking around is not what these people, you know the ones, are doing. They've come onto spaces made for the sole purpose of trans people to support each other and lift each other up (which is not the place for dismissive jokes) and started debates and flamewars locking many threads, which is not ok.


Mhm, I see what you mean.
Then again the speech itself is also a vital part of the message delivered. If a troll-like that sees this thread and reads very starter, they will see that the fire they ignited is burning well. So I see why such threads are falling down into a locked pit. They are fuel.

And there is no fire without fuel.
And I am afraid that not trolls but trans might be burned if that happens.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Mhm, I see what you mean.
> Then again the speech itself is also a vital part of the message delivered. If a troll-like that sees this thread and reads very starter, they will see that the fire they ignited is burning well. So I see why such threads are falling down into a locked pit. They are fuel.
> 
> And there is no fire without fuel.
> And I am afraid that not trolls but trans might be burned if that happens.


I'm sorry but I don't understand? Can you explain this to me, I'm dumb. Trolls should be banned, :/


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand? Can you explain this to me, I'm dumb. Trolls should be banned, :/


he's saying the threads get locked because people see them and use them as an opportunity to mess with others. it's fuel for the fire. what happened to this thread is exactly what I expected from it.  all that's left is for the mods to come to lock it like all the others before it.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand? Can you explain this to me, I'm dumb. Trolls should be banned, :/


Asking questions makes you everything but dumb.
I meant that if threads like that are locked then trolls have no ground to work on. Yet it limits possibilities for trans but also restricts trolls from starting fires.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Asking questions makes you everything but dumb.
> I meant that if threads like that are locked then trolls have no ground to work on. Yet it limits possibilities for trans but also restricts trolls from starting fires.


How about banning/punishing trolls instead of locking down trans thread because there might be trolls? That's like shutting down a jewelry shop because it has an increased chance of getting robbed????


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> he's saying the threads get locked because people see them and use them as an opportunity to mess with others. it's fuel for the fire. what happened to this thread is exactly what I expected from it.  all that's left is for the mods to come to lock it like all the others before it.





HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> Asking questions makes you everything but dumb.
> I meant that if threads like that are locked then trolls have no ground to work on. Yet it limits possibilities for trans but also restricts trolls from starting fires.


Some people are being abrasive, some people are calmly discussing the broader issues, and some people are starting a discussion about how inevitable it supposedly is that this thread devolves into a dumpster fire. That last discussion does not need to be had, especially if the conclusion is going to be “threads about trans* issues should be automatically closed.” Because while the intent may not be malicious, the effect is much the same as this  post from the Twitter thread I linked above:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328995596670267392
It’s widely recognized that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was not a very queer friendly policy (it may have been a small step forward when first enacted, but it was still saying “you can only be gay long as we don’t find out”). Allowing trolls to dictate to what degree people get to be their authentic selves is the same sort of thing. 

By all means, avoid feeding the trolls. But do so by ignoring and reporting their posts, not by declaring people’s identities a taboo topic.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> How about banning/punishing trolls instead of locking down trans thread because there might be trolls? That's like shutting down a jewelry shop because it has an increased chance of getting robbed????


That is the best analogy I've seen.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> That is the best analogy I've seen.


Thanks. It is quite like that, I guess. Here's another one: "You can't have wood because wood can catch fire!!!" If you take the proper precautions, and don't let any matches get near, your wood will not catch fire.



quoting_mungo said:


> Some people are being abrasive, some people are calmly discussing the broader issues, and some people are starting a discussion about how inevitable it supposedly is that this thread devolves into a dumpster fire. That last discussion does not need to be had, especially if the conclusion is going to be “threads about trans* issues should be automatically closed.” Because while the intent may not be malicious, the effect is much the same as this  post from the Twitter thread I linked above:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328995596670267392


I agree. It's victim-blaming. "But it's your fault you get trolled because you were openly talking about trans issues!!!" No. It's the fault of the trolls, end of discussion.


----------



## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

If only there was a way to prevent such transgressions on the internet from impacting polite and positive discussions to facilitate the rights and wellbeing of users...Hmm.

Fine, official statement time: This thread was going fine until people jumped in and caused issues within it. And that's the fault of the users who jumped in, not the fault of the people already in the thread, abiding by the rules.

I think the same set of users have done this several times already and I've reported their posts (just one per user, I don't want to spam). However, I noticed that only...2 of them have received a ban, one of which was only for a day or so.

This doesn't make any sense to me. I understand that the site staff want to enforce the rules and keep things like this to an absolute minimum...but why do they keep coming back? Why aren't they banned or at the very least, given a talking to?

This fiasco doesn't look good for staff members, all I'm saying. If we can't have a non-inflammatory thread exist peacefully, what CAN we have?

In short: Give the troublemakers a talking to, AT LEAST.


----------



## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> If only there was a way to prevent such transgressions on the internet from impacting polite and positive discussions to facilitate the rights and wellbeing of users...Hmm.
> 
> Fine, official statement time: This thread was going fine until people jumped in and caused issues within it. And that's the fault of the users who jumped in, not the fault of the people already in the thread, abiding by the rules.
> 
> ...


"but muh freedom of speech!!!"


----------



## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> "but muh freedom of speech!!!"


The people who fought for freedom of speech would be turning in their graves if they heard and saw what that concept was being used for.

Freedom of speech was invented to allow those who are being oppressed to speak out and inform others of it to achieve equality. That is how progression works. Either that, or it ends in bloody revolution where hundreds of people end up dead for no real reason cos 'dag nabbit, ma ears no work so well'.

Comes back to the old 'if you've nothing good to say, don't say anything at all'.

Getting along with each other is not hard. I've been doing it for years and so have many others. People aren't incapable of being respectful and mature.


----------



## Lucyfur (Nov 19, 2020)

I am tired, and this is the last time I will be making a thread like this on this site and be posting on this thread in particular too,.

But honestly The fact that the same people take issue with threads outlining issues the trans community faces in social aspects, that outlines behavior that people may like to change if it is one they take in order to be more respecting towards people, and at the core is meant for trans positivity because wether people believe it or not because sure they may see these types of things posted around 'often' but that is online and there are many more that say the exact opposite and many times in other places that people also jump on those to tell us terrible things like to kill ourselves.

I figured maybe people would like to be a bit more UwU furry friendly, at least in the scope of shit people have no control over because that is who they are, because UwU furry forums, but seems I was wrong at least here.

So yeah sorry.


----------



## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> Comes back to the old 'if you've nothing good to say, don't say anything at all'.
> 
> Getting along with each other is not hard. I've been doing it for years and so have many others. People aren't incapable of being respectful and mature.


This is very true. You are allowed to have opinions, and no one is making you 'kowtow' to our opinions. This isn't the right thread for trolling and spewing transphobic BS. If you have questions, you can always ask respectfully. 

Here is an example of a respectful discourse:

"'Hi, I'm new to trans issues. If people can choose their pronouns, how do I know which pronouns to use for people?"
"Ah, you can always just ask someone, or use they/them. It's usually fine to accidentally use the wrong gender once if you accidentally misgender someone, but please keep in mind their preferred pronouns for next time."
"Ok, I didn't know that and I made assumptions that trans people would be upset by that, sorry."
See, it's that easy.


----------



## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> Some people are being abrasive, some people are calmly discussing the broader issues, and some people are starting a discussion about how inevitable it supposedly is that this thread devolves into a dumpster fire. That last discussion does not need to be had, especially if the conclusion is going to be “threads about trans* issues should be automatically closed.” Because while the intent may not be malicious, the effect is much the same as this  post from the Twitter thread I linked above:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328995596670267392
> It’s widely recognized that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was not a very queer friendly policy (it may have been a small step forward when first enacted, but it was still saying “you can only be gay long as we don’t find out”). Allowing trolls to dictate to what degree people get to be their authentic selves is the same sort of thing.
> ...


That's cool and all but I'm not saying that all threads dealing with trans people need to be closed. I'm not being transphobic either, heck I don't care if you're part of the lgbtqrstuvwxyz community, I support you. it's just that whenever people have discussions on this topic things usually tend to get pretty spicy very quickly. as you can see for yourself this thread exploded into a massive argument within the span of a day. I never thought I'd see the word piss baby and transphobia in the same sentence but here we are. My point is people aren't being overdramatic when they say these threads turn into dumpster fires.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> There's two words in the English language that aren't being used by some people in here. They are 'I'm' and 'sorry'. When put together, it becomes 'I'm sorry'. A simple apology and an admittance of fault is all that's really being demanded.


I don't think 'being forced to apologize for past misbehavior' is a can of worms you want to open here. The people on your crowd haven't acted nicely *at all*, there's a lot they could be asked to apologize for from them as well. You are not going to get any consensus here on what should be apologized for, and who should be apologized to ... so it would be the smartest move to drop such demands entirely.

INB4 I get accused of derailing this thread, it's *you* who started this thread of conversation in the first place.



VeeStars said:


> They've come onto spaces made for the sole purpose of trans people to support each other and lift each other up


For people who claim to 'just want to lift each other up', you and your buddies are sure spending a lot of time and energy doing very different things ... seems pretty hypocritical to me.
Want to know how to prevent these threads from getting derailed? Stop using them as a vehicle to (rather unsubtly) air out (usually misrepresentative) grievances against other users! You keep stirring shit up yourselves and then complain about the results!

You want these threads to be focused on 'lifting up trans people', then *keep these threads focused on that! *Stop using them for putting other users down and airing out misguided grievances against said users!


----------



## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> lgbtqrstuvwxyz


hmmmm


----------



## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> You want these threads to be focused on 'lifting up trans people', then *keep these threads focused on that! *Stop using them for putting other users down and airing out misguided grievances against said users!


EXACTLY. If you want a thread to be focused on an issue, do not use the threads as quick jabs against people you have issues with. This whole "thread-jabbing thing and getting mad at the resulting shitstorm" is exactly what happened when SSJ3 quit being a moderator. People used the thread to complain and moan about all the things SSJ3 did to them on his farewell thread and then were surprised and disappointed in everyone when the thread exploded into a massive argument.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> hmmmm



Don't even start dude. Seriously.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I don't think 'being forced to apologize for past misbehavior' is a can of worms you want to open here. The people on your crowd haven't acted nicely *at all*, there's a lot they could be asked to apologize for from them as well. You are not going to get any consensus here on what should be apologized for, and who should be apologized to ... so it would be the smartest move to drop such demands entirely.
> 
> INB4 I get accused of derailing this thread, it's *you* who started this thread of conversation in the first place.
> 
> ...


Yeah, then stop coming on this thread to yell how much of a not transphobe all of your buddies are, and tell your buddies to leave us be.


----------



## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Yeah, then stop coming on this thread to yell how much of a not transphobe all of your buddies are, and tell your buddies to leave us be.


Don't level transphobia accusations against them! It's pretty nasty BTW. I think it's perfectly fair for me to come and counter them. If you people choose your threads to be 'trials on transphobia', then I will treat them as such.

Don't pull this 'this thread is supposed to be about X' card, when you keep derailing it from X yourselves all the time (especially when it's often your crowd that initiates the derailment).


----------



## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Yeah, then stop coming on this thread to yell how much of a not transphobe all of your buddies are, and tell your buddies to leave us be.


i wasn't even referring to trans rights or the ACTUAL discussion being had. My whole thing was with the people going "err these threads don't turn into verbal slap boxing between furries, even though they always do"


----------



## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> i wasn't even referring to trans rights or the ACTUAL discussion being had. My whole thing was with the people going "err these threads don't turn into verbal slap boxing between furries, even though they always do"


No one's saying that, what people are actually saying is that we should give a talking to to the people who always start the verbal slap boxing (ahem, you know who you are)



contemplationistwolf said:


> Don't level transphobia accusations against them! It's pretty nasty BTW. I think it's perfectly fair for me to come and counter them. If you people choose your threads to be 'trials on transphobia', then I will treat them as such.
> 
> Don't pull this 'this thread is supposed to be about X' card, when you keep derailing it from X yourselves all the time (especially when it's often your crowd that initiates the derailment).


Not being able to admit you made a mistake and are willing to change is pretty immature, and it's not a good look. I don't believe in canceling people, but I do believe that people should be held accountable. Your buddies have done some pretty mean stuff, but all they have to do is apologize, and don't do it again, and we can all just go back to being happy furs. You defending them only encourages them, just stop, you are dragging yourself down with them. Notice how I haven't been rude at all, at least I have been trying to, and I apologize if I have been. I have been called numerous things like "mentally deranged and insane," yet when we call out your friends for a few things they have done, you get all defensive about it. Please stop, it's a terrible, terrible look. You guys are scaring trans people off these forums because you can't behave.


----------



## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Not being able to admit you made a mistake and are willing to change is pretty immature, and it's not a good look. I don't believe in canceling people, but I do believe that people should be held accountable. Your buddies have done some pretty mean stuff, but all they have to do is apologize, and don't do it again, and we can all just go back to being happy furs. You defending them only encourages them, just stop, you are dragging yourself down with them. Notice how I haven't been rude at all, at least I have been trying to, and I apologize if I have been. I have been called numerous things like "mentally deranged and insane," yet when we call out your friends for a few things they have done, you get all defensive about it. Please stop, it's a terrible, terrible look. You guys are scaring trans people off these forums because you can't behave.


I'm not going to apologize for mistakes I haven't made. Also, I'll tell you frankly: your crowd is not qualified to hold anyone accountable. That's the job of the mods.
I'm defending some specific things, but not everything. I do admit some behavior from some of them was insensitive and classless (though, let's not blow things out of proportion. I know their intents, and they weren't as malicious as you imagine).

Also, you are very much engaging in the derailment yourself right now! You want this thread to be a trial on the behavior of my friends? Sure! I'll oblige! Just know that it's pretty serious derailment from the supposed noble goals of this thread, and that you are the one who initiated it.


----------



## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

Oh, and I'll say something relevant to this thread. There was an article briefly posted about the prevalence of mental illness among trans people.
Yes! That is a documented fact, but it doesn't make trans people inferior. That issue probably comes not from the inherent quality of being trans, but from the amount of discrimination and isolation trans people face. This is a problem to be solved, not a judgement on what trans people are worth, and a big part of solving that problem is dealing with the societal issues that harm trans people.


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I don't think 'being forced to apologize for past misbehavior' is a can of worms you want to open here. The people on your crowd haven't acted nicely *at all*, there's a lot they could be asked to apologize for from them as well. You are not going to get any consensus here on what should be apologized for, and who should be apologized to ... so it would be the smartest move to drop such demands entirely.
> 
> INB4 I get accused of derailing this thread, it's *you* who started this thread of conversation in the first place.


I'm not asking YOU to apologise. If you haven't done anything wrong, you aren't to blame. If I wanted YOU to apologise, I'd ask you.

But I will drop those 'demands'.

You go ahead and shift the blame onto me, though, when I've tried to keep things civil. Still went to shit, though, didn't it?


----------



## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I'm not going to apologize for mistakes I haven't made. Also, I'll tell you frankly: your crowd is not qualified to hold anyone accountable. That's the job of the mods.
> I'm defending some specific things, but not everything. I do admit some behavior from some of them was insensitive and classless (though, let's not blow things out of proportion. I know their intents, and they weren't as malicious as you imagine).
> 
> Also, you are very much engaging in the derailment yourself right now! You want this thread to be a trial on the behavior of my friends? Sure! I'll oblige! Just know that it's pretty serious derailment from the supposed noble goals of this thread, and that you are the one who initiated it.


I can tell you are trying very hard to say they are not transphobic. What they did was "insensitive and classless" but not simply transphobic. Interesting...


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> I can tell you are trying very hard to say they are not transphobic. What they did was "insensitive and classless" but not simply transphobic. Interesting...


I don't really care if you think I'm transphobic, though I do care about the narratives that get pushed in public. Also, I *know* that they didn't have actual transphobic intent behind what they said.
It was insensitive because it provoked this kind of reaction, though I personally see the reaction as a bigger problem than the 'insensitivity'. Personally, I'm happy to argue against 'trans critical' points.

Oh, and a big gripe I have with the ... jumpiness of your crowd is not only that it's vicious at a personal level, but that it keeps derailing good discussions. It keeps silencing the voices among the left that actually have good points to make.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I don't really care if you think I'm transphobic, though I do care about the narratives that get pushed in public. Also, I *know* that they didn't have actual transphobic intent behind what they said.
> It was insensitive because it provoked this kind of reaction, though I personally see the reaction as a bigger problem than the 'insensitivity'. Personally, I'm happy to argue against 'trans critical' points.
> 
> Oh, and a big gripe I have with the ... jumpiness of your crowd is not only that it's vicious at a personal level, but that it keeps derailing good discussions. It keeps silencing the voices among the left that actually have good points to make.


Yeah you just totally know they don't have bad intent, that's totally not just what they told you. It's not like you were arguing with a trans person about what is/isn't offensive to trans people to justify your friend's actions or anything.


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I don't really care if you think I'm transphobic, though I do care about the narratives that get pushed in public. Also, I *know* that they didn't have actual transphobic intent behind what they said.
> It was insensitive because it provoked this kind of reaction, though I personally see the reaction as a bigger problem than the 'insensitivity'. Personally, I'm happy to argue against 'trans critical' points.
> 
> Oh, and a big gripe I have with the ... jumpiness of your crowd is not only that it's vicious at a personal level, but that it keeps derailing good discussions. It keeps silencing the voices among the left that actually have good points to make.


Personally, I haven't accused anybody of being transphobic, intentionally or otherwise. You'll notice that not everybody in this 'crowd' thinks along the same lines.

What I offered was an olive branch. A chance for you and your buddies to end the accusations. It's called apologising. Here, I'll type out what they should say:
"Hey, guys. I'm sorry if what I said came off as transphobia. I didn't mean to do it and I can assure you I have no malicious intent behind it. It was just a mistake and it won't happen again".

See, if those sentences had been uttered...five fucking threads ago, we could get back to having good discussions.

Apologies are an admission of a mistake, but not a direct admission of transphobia, as highlighted there.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> Personally, I haven't accused anybody of being transphobic, intentionally or otherwise. You'll notice that not everybody in this 'crowd' thinks along the same lines.
> 
> What I offered was an olive branch. A chance for you and your buddies to end the accusations. It's called apologising. Here, I'll type out what they should say:
> "Hey, guys. I'm sorry if what I said came off as transphobia. I didn't mean to do it and I can assure you I have no malicious intent behind it. It was just a mistake and it won't happen again".
> ...


It's clear they did have transphobic intent since they have such an aversion to apologize. If they didn't mean to come off as transphobic they only had to say two words. I'm sorry. TWO WORDS.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> "Hey, guys. I'm sorry if what I said came off as transphobia. I didn't mean to do it and I can assure you I have no malicious intent behind it. It was just a mistake and it won't happen again".


my god..


----------



## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> It's clear they did have transphobic intent since they have such an aversion to apologize. If they didn't mean to come off as transphobic they only had to say two words. I'm sorry. TWO WORDS.


Well, put simply, we're all screaming and shouting at each other, so the likelihood of anyone apologising at all, no matter what intent there is, is practically zero.

But worth a try.


----------



## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Yeah you just totally know they don't have bad intent, that's totally not just what they told you. It's not like you were arguing with a trans person about what is/isn't offensive to trans people to justify your friend's actions or anything.


I know that because I have interacted with them for a long time! I think that gives me a pretty good picture, don't you agree?



KD142000 said:


> What I offered was an olive branch. A chance for you and your buddies to end the accusations. It's called apologising. Here, I'll type out what they should say:
> "Hey, guys. I'm sorry if what I said came off as transphobia. I didn't mean to do it and I can assure you I have no malicious intent behind it. It was just a mistake and it won't happen again".


And I offered you guys a chance to end this crap. Stop pushing these accusations and demands!

They had no bad intent. Not all offense is intended, and sometimes intended offense is not X-phobic ... or even malicious.



VeeStars said:


> It's clear they did have transphobic intent since they have such an aversion to apologize. If they didn't mean to come off as transphobic they only had to say two words. I'm sorry. TWO WORDS.


They received pretty nasty treatment themselves. People are usually not eager to apologize to those who treat them like crap ... feels like appeasement. Also, they might have their own strong beliefs/values that you guys stepped on (potentially unintentionally).


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I'm defending some specific things, but not everything. I do admit some behavior from some of them was insensitive and classless (though, let's not blow things out of proportion. I know their intents, and they weren't as malicious as you imagine).





contemplationistwolf said:


> Also, I *know* that they didn't have actual transphobic intent behind what they said.


I mentioned this to Conor, but I want to bring it up again in case it was missed.








						Dan on Instagram: "Reflect with me: How have I developed the expectation that others should always assume the best intentions of me?  How do assumptions of intent (good or bad) get in the way of deeper understanding?  Is it possible for me to have bi
					

Dan shared a post on Instagram: "Reflect with me: How have I developed the expectation that others should always assume the best intentions of me?  How do assumptions of intent (good or bad) get in the way of deeper understanding?  Is it possible for me to have big, perhaps painful, feelings and...




					www.instagram.com
				





Spoiler: post transcription



Sometimes, we accost and punish others for not seeing or assuming our good intentions, when we could, instead, take it upon ourselves to be more clear in communicating our intent and inviting feedback. We engage in the deep, daily work of creating more safety and equity when we actively pursue understanding of the ways harm is generated, subtly yet pervasively, in the discrepancies between our intent vs. our actual impact.



You and others are allowed to be upset when your words are met harshly, but there also needs to be room for reflection. If one's only reaction to being told that something they said is transphobic is to say "but I'm not!", then they are not really considering the broader context and effect of their actions. I know it feels bad to be rebuked, but someone has to be the bigger person. If a trans person says "this thing you said is transphobic" and you reply "oh, I didn't know, i hadn't meant it that way" then things will likely go a lot better than it has in these past _three_ threads. Or even being clearer of your good intent in your original posts. You can still uphold that you and your friends aren't transphobic or any other -ist while also keeping yourselves open for personal reflection and feedback. We all have room to grow.

These threads do not have to be battlegrounds. There is common ground we can reach and you have made a number of good posts with great points. It's really sad that they get bogged down and drowned out by this bickering.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> They had no bad intent. Not all offense is intended, and sometimes intended offense is not X-phobic ... or even malicious.


Its unfortunate that people who sits on neither side gets vilified.


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## Tendo64 (Nov 19, 2020)

I'm just gonna leave this here:
Rule ?? of the internet: if a trans-related post exists in any way, a transphobe must put their two cents in that literally nobody asked for


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> And I offered you guys a chance to end this crap. Stop pushing these accusations and demands!
> 
> They had no bad intent. Not all offense is intended, and sometimes intended offense is not X-phobic ... or even malicious.


I didn't say they had bad intent. Hence why I stated:* I didn't mean to do it and I can assure you I have no malicious intent behind it *was a good thing for them to say. That's not accusing, that's enforcing the idea they had no ill intent. Do you read half of what I say, or what?

I'm not pushing accusations. You'd see that if you read: *Personally, I haven't accused anybody of being transphobic, intentionally or otherwise.*


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

Some of you people are so pathetic and it's not even about you being Trans.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> I didn't say they had bad intent. Hence why I stated:* I didn't mean to do it and I can assure you I have no malicious intent behind it *was a good thing for them to say. That's not accusing, that's enforcing the idea they had no ill intent. Do you read half of what I say, or what?
> 
> I'm not pushing accusations. You'd see that if you read: *Personally, I haven't accused anybody of being transphobic, intentionally or otherwise.*


Glad that we got that clarified! Now can we move on?



inkbloom said:


> I mentioned this to Conor, but I want to bring it up again in case it was missed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, these are fair points. There's a lot to reflect on the other side too though. In my opinion, the crowd on your side here has made bigger mistakes, and over a longer period of time.



inkbloom said:


> If one's only reaction to being told that something they said is transphobic is to say "but I'm not!", then they are not really considering the broader context and effect of their actions.


I'll say this though, not everyone's lives revolve around trans issues. Can't fault them for not understanding how they might come across to every trans individual. Also, let's not exaggerate things ... as far as society as a whole goes, the people who have been piled are actually very tolerant, and have behaved in a very mild manner.

I will tell you this, you guys are incredibly demanding of others, while allowing your own side to engage in fairly nasty conduct.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Some of you people are so pathetic and it's not even about you being Trans.


Who is this directed towards exactly?



contemplationistwolf said:


> I'll say this though, not everyone's lives revolve around trans issues. Can't fault them for not understanding how they might come across to every trans individual. Also, let's not exaggerate things ... as far as society as a whole goes, the people who have been piled are actually very tolerant, and have behaved in a very mild manner.
> 
> I will tell you this, you guys are incredibly demanding of others, while allowing your own side to engage in fairly nasty conduct.


Who knew that calling people "mentally deranged" is acting calm and that asking for two words, "I'm sorry" is being incredibly demanding


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Some of you people are so pathetic and it's not even about you being Trans.


And those people are? Name names if you're going to make insults.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Glad that we got that clarified! Now can we move on?
> 
> 
> Sure, these are fair points. There's a lot to reflect on the other side too though. In my opinion, the crowd on your side here has made bigger mistakes, and over a longer period of time.
> ...


"Mistakes" such as being yourself


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## Meta_Tiara (Nov 19, 2020)

I’m echoing what at least a couple other people said. Permabanning the bigots who are blatantly acting in bad faith and derailing threads shouldn’t be so difficult, especially when they keep on doing that.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Arguing with you guys is like playing chess with a pigeon, I'm just going to ignore y'all and move on, I have better things to be doing and I wouldn't like to suffer a stroke this young.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Who knew that calling people "mentally deranged" is acting calm and that asking for two words, "I'm sorry" is being incredibly demanding


That one post was nasty, though it was directed at individuals who behaved nasty themselves ... it was retaliatory, but that doesn't justify things. Shall I start listing all the nasty stuff done by your side, picking up and misrepresenting old quarrels without any reason, keeping on doing that completely unprovoked in inappropriate places. Constant insults and shades. Relentlessness hostility.



Ovidia Dragoness said:


> "Mistakes" such as being yourself


Never said or implied that in any way! Don't start imagining things


----------



## Eremurus (Nov 19, 2020)

The human race will never get along. Sorry.


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Sure, these are fair points. There's a lot to reflect on the other side too though. In my opinion, the crowd on your side here has made bigger mistakes, and over a longer period of time.
> 
> 
> I'll say this though, not everyone's lives revolve around trans issues. Can't fault them for not understanding how they might come across to every trans individual. Also, let's not exaggerate things ... as far as society as a whole goes, the people who have been piled are actually very tolerant, and have behaved in a very mild manner.
> ...


I can understand how you got that perception considering I replied directly to you, but I am not on anyone's side. I know that there is on ongoing feud between groups here from context, but that started before I ever got here and I do not plan on stepping into it now. I was very clear that everyone, and I do mean everyone, has room to grow. You, me, and everyone else here.

I wanted to reply to you and not the others because this did start, way back in the original thread, with a user saying something that was called out for being transphobic. Even if you are completely honest and correct about that poster's intentions and feelings, it is not anyone else's responsibility to assume good intentions, particularly when there has been so much, deeply documented, bad intentions in the world towards them. Empathy and understanding would have gone a long way to resolving things quickly, but now it has spiraled forth into three threads of bickering and name calling. It's disheartening to say the least.

I do not know if I will be able to change anyone's heart or encourage even one person to be more kind, but I know from your posts that you are a decent person who only wanted to protect their friends. I can see how what was said to you was hurtful, and understand how much you must want to push back against it. That is perfectly natural. However, I was hoping that you would be open to hearing what I had to say and perhaps be the first person to extend that empathy and compassion. It has to start somewhere.

Though I have been seeing the posts popping up as I type this and I guess I am just a fool.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> I can understand how you got that perception considering I replied directly to you, but I am not on anyone's side. I know that there is on ongoing feud between groups here from context, but that started before I ever got here and I do not plan on stepping into it now. I was very clear that everyone, and I do mean everyone, has room to grow. You, me, and everyone else here.
> 
> I wanted to reply to you and not the others because this did start, way back in the original thread, with a user saying something that was called out for being transphobic. Even if you are completely honest and correct about that poster's intentions and feelings, it is not anyone else's responsibility to assume good intentions, particularly when there has been so much, deeply documented, bad intentions in the world towards them. Empathy and understanding would have gone a long way to resolving things quickly, but now it has spiraled forth into three threads of bickering and name calling. It's disheartening to say the least.
> 
> ...


I am open to what you say. I do scrutinize myself a lot, and I scrutinize my friends too. They make mistakes for sure, but they are still good people.

If I have a purpose with all this ... I'd say it's to clarify things and provide the other side of the picture. To prevent things from devolving back into the same kind of one-sided bullying that was going on before, and that was actually hurting both sides.

I don't hold grudges towards the other side, nor expect any apologies or whatever from them. I just hope the future will be better.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2020)

Let's hope when the mods lock this thread that they go after the people who derailed it. "Spamming"


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Who is this directed towards exactly?


"some of you people" not naming specifics because I don't really know who guys fucking are prior to me coming back to this wreck of a forum. This is just my general feeling with "some of you people"

My biggest gripe with "some of you people" is how you let being a "transgender" be your defining characteristic. "some people" are so inundated with transgender identity that people completely forgot the characteristics that matters the most like humility and personal fortitude.

This is why I find it pathetic at all these grasping of strawman


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I am open to what you say. I do scrutinize myself a lot, and I scrutinize my friends too. They make mistakes for sure, but they are still good people.
> 
> If I have a purpose with all this ... I'd say it's to clarify things and provide the other side of the picture. To prevent things from devolving back into the same kind of one-sided bullying that was going on before, and that was actually hurting both sides.
> 
> I don't hold grudges towards the other side, nor expect any apologies or whatever from them. I just hope the future will be better.


I have the same hope. If this is your truth, then let your actions speak that for you.

This is going to sound like an impossible request (and this is for everyone, not just you), but I think a good start would be to stop thinking of things in terms of sides. My only side was that of positivity and trans acceptance, but even though we had never quarreled before you were quick to lump me into a side you clearly disdain as soon as I made a suggestion to you. I understand why you did it, but that was not fair to me nor yourself. I do not know how long this little drama has been going on or the entire list of players, but I wonder how many else have been grouped simply because they said something outside of what was considered the accepted script. I will not lie that my first instinct was to lash out, feeling attacked for what I had thought was a mild post. But that does not get us anywhere, and neither does this picking of sides. 

I know that you and I are both on the same side of "trans people are valid". For this thread at least, let that be the only side worth giving the time of day.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> This is going to sound like an impossible request (and this is for everyone, not just you), but I think a good start would be to stop thinking of things in terms of sides.


I'm currently on that side because ... I was kinda forced there, and I actually experienced way better behavior from that side. When I came here I was quickly attacked for nothing by 'the other side' ... they 'othered' me, so might as well go along with it. I don't care about sides that much actually.



inkbloom said:


> My only side was that of positivity and trans acceptance, but even though we had never quarreled before you were quick to lump me into a side you clearly disdain as soon as I made a suggestion to you.


Sorry, it was just a mistaken snap-judgement. I stand corrected now.



inkbloom said:


> I do not know how long this little drama has been going on or the entire list of players


For a long time ... lots to untangle here ...



inkbloom said:


> but I wonder how many else have been grouped simply because they said something outside of what was considered the accepted script.


Lots of people!



inkbloom said:


> I know that you and I are both on the same side of "trans people are valid". For this thread at least, let that be the only side worth giving the time of day.


I agree! I'd be very happy to drop this drama! Perhaps I'll even have more actually relevant stuff to contribute to this thread (or what it's supposed to be ... in ideal)


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> "some of you people" not naming specifics because I don't really know who guys fucking are prior to me coming back to this wreck of a forum. This is just my general feeling with "some of you people"
> 
> My biggest gripe with "some of you people" is how you let being a "transgender" be your defining characteristic. "some people" are so inundated with transgender identity that people completely forgot the characteristics that matters the most like humility and personal fortitude.
> 
> This is why I find it pathetic at all these grasping of strawman


There should be nothing wrong with making a thread saying "trans rights are human rights". It's not our only feature. We just want to be accepted. Which isn't happening.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> "some of you people" not naming specifics because I don't really know who guys fucking are prior to me coming back to this wreck of a forum. This is just my general feeling with "some of you people"
> 
> My biggest gripe with "some of you people" is how you let being a "transgender" be your defining characteristic. "some people" are so inundated with transgender identity that people completely forgot the characteristics that matters the most like humility and personal fortitude.
> 
> This is why I find it pathetic at all these grasping of strawman


No, absolutely not. I'm arguing for the trans people and I'm not a "transgender" (no clue why you put it in quotes). I guess I'm an anomaly then. :/


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> There should be nothing wrong with making a thread saying "trans rights are human rights". It's not our only feature. We just want to be accepted. Which isn't happening.


I accept you, even with all your (non-trans-related) flaws ^^


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I'm currently on that side because ... I was kinda forced there, and I actually experienced way better behavior from that side. When I came here I was quickly attacked for nothing by 'the other side' ... they 'othered' me, so might as well go along with it. I don't care about sides that much actually


I know it is easy to fall into thinking of things in these terms, it feels like that is just the way of the world. But in my experience, there aren't really clear sides. One can have friend groups and family units and communities that they belong to, but not one of those things will be a completely cohesive monolith. We're all just people.  It's when we stop seeing each other as individuals that we start falling prey to this us vs them thinking. It's how something that should be so very agreeable becomes grounds for war.



contemplationistwolf said:


> Sorry, it was just a mistaken snap-judgement. I stand corrected now.


All is forgiven. I would hardly be right in assuming your intentions right after telling you not to do that very thing. But it does act as a nice example of how this kind of thing leads to more hurt feelings than common ground.



contemplationistwolf said:


> I agree! I'd be very happy to drop this drama! Perhaps I'll even have more actually relevant stuff to contribute to this thread (or what it's supposed to be ... in ideal)


I personally would love to hear what you have to say on the actual topic.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Nov 19, 2020)

Eremurus said:


> The human race will never get along. Sorry.


We can always try the best we can at least.


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 19, 2020)

*Just saying:* trans* status might be a pretty significant trait in a thread about trans* issues. Is it also an issue if I go into a pet thread and talk about being a cat owner? :V

*On language:* “a transgender” and “transgenderism” are examples of language that isn’t really used in trans*-friendly places. It’s dehumanizing. I’m _not_ suggesting that using them must mean that you are a transphobe. However, I _am_ saying that using them will make you _look_ transphobic. And if you want to be supportive of the trans* community, dropping them from your active vocabulary might be a good start.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> *Just saying:* trans* status might be a pretty significant trait in a thread about trans* issues. Is it also an issue if I go into a pet thread and talk about being a cat owner? :V
> 
> *On language:* “a transgender” and “transgenderism” are examples of language that isn’t really used in trans*-friendly places. It’s dehumanizing. I’m _not_ suggesting that using them must mean that you are a transphobe. However, I _am_ saying that using them will make you _look_ transphobic. And if you want to be supportive of the trans* community, dropping them from your active vocabulary might be a good start.


Yes, I agree. "Transgenderism" just sounds ignorant.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> “a transgender” and “transgenderism” are examples of language that isn’t really used in trans*-friendly places. It’s dehumanizing.


Oh for fuck sakes...


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## Eremurus (Nov 19, 2020)

[Nexus] said:


> We can always try the best we can at least.


Human beings are deeply illogical and emotional. It is against our nature. We have things that constantly divide us, ideologies we hold in high regards. It won't be for quite some time.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> I personally would love to hear what you have to say on the actual topic.


No problem! I empathize with trans people, lots of the struggles they have gone through are very similar to the struggles gay people have gone through (and still are in many parts of the world ... oh and gay myself btw). I hope society improve to the point where they can live fulfilling lives with minimal hassle ... and do understand that there's still a long way to go towards that, both societally and legislatively (oh and I currently believe the societal component is way more important than the legislative one). I hope this process goes smoothly, and if recent history is something to go by then there's reason for optimism (no matter the minor bumps).


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

One thing I'm not getting is the wording being used here. I keep hearing "You guys" and "Your crowd" and "My crowd". Did I miss something? Can I get the sauce on this whole thing?


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## Deleted member 134556 (Nov 19, 2020)

Eremurus said:


> It's human nature. We are deeply
> 
> Human beings are deeply illogical and emotional. It is against our nature. We have things that constantly divide us, ideologies we hold in high regards. It won't be for quite some time.


Human beings also survived by cooperation and compassion, which is also in our nature. If we let our ideologies divide us at every turn then you and me wouldn't be communicating to each other through the internet. We'd both be isolated in different tribes still fighting for the next meal.


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> No problem! I empathize with trans people, lots of the struggles they have gone through are very similar to the struggles gay people have gone through (and still are in many parts of the world ... oh and gay myself btw). I hope society improve to the point where they can live fulfilling lives with minimal hassle ... and do understand that there's still a long way to go towards that, both societally and legislatively (oh and I currently believe the societal component is way more important than the legislative one). I hope this process goes smoothly, and if recent history is something to go by then there's reason for optimism (no matter the minor bumps).


Oh, why do you consider societal more important? I have a few reasons I could imagine, but I'd like to hear more about your own thoughts.
To me it feels almost like a chicken and egg problem. It seems so hard to have one without the other. Perhaps they will just cartwheel together down the path of progress.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> One thing I'm not getting is the wording being used here. I keep hearing "You guys" and "Your crowd" and "My crowd". Did I miss something? Can I get the sauce on this whole thing?


Hahaha. Lots of drama going on behind the scenes ... I kinda got sucked into it, and then used it as an opportunity to make friends.

In essence, FAF got complacent and the liberal-activist crowd started fiercely attacking lots of people with very flimsy justifications. Some of those people ended up becoming friends and started standing up for themselves.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Hahaha. Lots of drama going on behind the scenes ... I kinda got sucked into it, and then used it as an opportunity to make friends.
> 
> In essence, FAF got complacent and the liberal-activist crowd started fiercely attacking lots of people with very flimsy justifications. Some of those people ended up becoming friends and started standing up for themselves.


Oh okay. The thread was supposed to be about people lifting each other up and coming together but ended up being about 2 sides warring it out while people on neither side were constantly talking about how they were on neither side and one guy was sick of remembering pronouns for a million different genders and identities and sexualities and 2 people were getting into a whole thing on the concept of human nature and empathy for one another and it was kinda getting depressing


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> Oh, why do you consider societal more important? I have a few reasons I could imagine, but I'd like to hear more about your own thoughts.
> To me it feels almost like a chicken and egg problem. It seems so hard to have one without the other. Perhaps they will just cartwheel together down the path of progress.


I think government is just part of the picture, and laws are mostly declarations ... there are lots of ways people can play around laws.
IMO it doesn't matter much that the government supports transitioning if your parents decide to disown you. Also, even with employment anti-discrimination laws, your co-workers (and even boss perhaps) can still make your life a living hell because of it ... don't believe any set of laws will be enough to mitigate the risk. Hate crime laws don't matter much when someone decides to kill you anyways.

IMO, societal attitudes will ultimately have much greater impact on the lives of trans people than laws. Though, can laws help with improving societal attitudes? Or can laws be counterproductive for that instead? ... These are interesting questions that I don't have definite answers to.

These are the thoughts of a non-expert though, I very much admit I might be wrong.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Nov 19, 2020)

If anything, these threads are great honeypots to catch muckrakers.

*shrug*


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## Zenkiki (Nov 19, 2020)

Anyone noticed @Lucyfur had changed her name and what her current status is because of these threads?


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Zenkiki said:


> Anyone noticed @Lucyfur had changed her name and what her current status is because of these threads?


Yeah, she told me that she is taking a break from the forums because of the shit on this thread.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> If I have to constantly fucking walk on egg shells and worry about my language (which I am already doing my best to be as unoffensively as possible) to prevent people from being offended,
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm going to have to start staying 5000 feet away from any transgenders.


Trans people are different. The crowd that dominated this place is a bit weird (and funnily enough, lots of the fiercest crusaders aren't even trans themselves), but it's not representative of the trans nor liberal demographics as a whole. I suspect though that most trans people won't even care to police your language to that extent, nor with that level of unforgivingness.


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## Zenkiki (Nov 19, 2020)

VeeStars said:


> Yeah, she told me that she is taking a break from the forums because of the shit on this thread.


I might not like the way she talks and handles things, but there is still something off about being pushed off the site because the same few assholes keep being donkeys


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I think government is just part of the picture, and laws are mostly declarations ... there are lots of ways people can play around laws.
> IMO it doesn't matter much that the government supports transitioning if your parents decide to disown you. Also, even with employment anti-discrimination laws, your co-workers (and even boss perhaps) can still make your life a living hell because of it ... don't believe any set of laws will be enough to mitigate the risk. Hate crime laws don't matter much when someone decides to kill you anyways.
> 
> IMO, societal attitudes will ultimately have much greater impact on the lives of trans people than laws. Though, can laws help with improving societal attitudes? Or can laws be counterproductive for that instead? ... These are interesting questions that I don't have definite answers to.
> ...


Fair points. It is true that having laws in place do not always guarantee that you will not get hurt. 
Conversely, you will never have a society that is completely in agreement as I alluded to earlier in my talk about groups. There will always be someone in the world who wants to harm you for whatever reason. If there is nothing in place to protect you or at least punish those who would do you wrong, then you are still getting hurt but now without any kind of recourse. 

I do think the two inform each other. Society will make laws based around its current perception of right and wrong. In turn, we learn what is right and wrong by seeing what is uplifted and what is punished. No one is born with a fully functioning, perfectly attuned moral compass. We tell children that it is bad to steal from other kids and punish them if they do so they understand that stealing is wrong. If there are laws in place to dissuade certain behaviors, it becomes clearer that it is not right to do those things and those who would engage in such acts are discouraged from pushing their feelings onto others. 

I suppose I see it as very cyclical, which is what makes it such an interesting topic. Either opinion has merit and it is a puzzle how to fit them neatly together.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> Fair points. It is true that having laws in place do not always guarantee that you will not get hurt.
> Conversely, you will never have a society that is completely in agreement as I alluded to earlier in my talk about groups. There will always be someone in the world who wants to harm you for whatever reason. If there is nothing in place to protect you or at least punish those who would do you wrong, then you are still getting hurt but now without any kind of recourse.
> 
> I do think the two inform each other. Society will make laws based around its current perception of right and wrong. In turn, we learn what is right and wrong by seeing what is uplifted and what is punished. No one is born with a fully functioning, perfectly attuned moral compass. We tell children that it is bad to steal from other kids and punish them if they do so they understand that stealing is wrong. If there are laws in place to dissuade certain behaviors, it becomes clearer that it is not right to do those things and those who would engage in such acts are discouraged from pushing their feelings onto others.
> ...


Fair enough. I personally believe that the laws will follow the societal attitude (they might be a bit ahead, or a bit behind, but they will follow). IMO, impact on societal attitude is very important to take into account when pushing for laws (not implying anything specific here though), and most of the civil rights efforts should be focused on improving societal attitude.


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## mangomango (Nov 19, 2020)

I think education is an important part of acceptance! There really isn't enough taught in schools about trans (or LGBTQ in general) history and the challenges they face. Granted, education isn't a magical fix, but it definitely is helpful! Teaching people how to respect someone's pronouns, how to support people who are transitioning, and how to feel comfortable in their own gender identity would allow for greater acceptance overall. The more aware society is of a topic, the more likely they are to be accepting of it.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

mangomango said:


> I think education is an important part of acceptance! There really isn't enough taught in schools about trans (or LGBTQ in general) history and the challenges they face. Granted, education isn't a magical fix, but it definitely is helpful! Teaching people how to respect someone's pronouns, how to support people who are transitioning, and how to feel comfortable in their own gender identity would allow for greater acceptance overall. The more aware society is of a topic, the more likely they are to be accepting of it.


I agree!


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## Eremurus (Nov 19, 2020)

[Nexus] said:


> Human beings also survived by cooperation and compassion, which is also in our nature. If we let our ideologies divide us at every turn then you and me wouldn't be communicating to each other through the internet. We'd both be isolated in different tribes still fighting for the next meal.


Survived and co-operated with people who shared similar cultural & religious views, sure. There's still systemic racism in even the most richest and progressive of nations. 

Technology is the only reason we aren't in isolated tribes any longer. That doesn't mean we like each other, we just (sometimes) tolerate them for mutual gains.


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## MrSpookyBoots (Nov 19, 2020)

A lot of shit throwing in this thread could have been avoided if some individuals decided to walk away instead of posting anything at all. A lot of you are adults and it's frankly disappointing to know that this happened in a wholesome thread at first and carried on into two other threads.

What a joke....


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

MrSpooky said:


> A lot of shit throwing in this thread could have been avoided if some individuals decided to walk away instead of posting anything at all. A lot of you are adults and it's frankly disappointing to know that this happened in a wholesome thread at first and carried on into two other threads.
> 
> What a joke....


Yeah, it really sucks.


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## idkthough120 (Nov 19, 2020)

Oh... the replies......


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

You know what's amazing? How a bunch of adults can get onto a site and behave like total children, always wanting to make their point and have it their way. When two little words could've solved all this...it's fucking pathetic.

Well, hope everybody's happy about that sorry state of affairs. And people wonder why I've been so aggressive and pissy, lately.

You know, I came here over a year ago, thinking it was an inclusive place, where everybody's gone through some shit and has ended up wiser and more accepting because of it. Turns out I was completely wrong. Half of you are great and the other half are...well, there's no words. Your behaviour speaks for itself.

This place is just one step away from a massive riot.

Now, I don't care if I get banned or suspended for saying this: All the troublemakers should've been banned weeks, if not years ago. The mods have just delayed it. Whilst they've done their best, it's not good enough.

This thread was doing just fine until the same old crowd stepped in and fucked everything up. I hope you're proud of your little digital victory, pushing users off the site cos you have nothing else going on in your lives. Some of us have actual problems going on, right now and we take the time out to put ourselves on the line for others.

I'm trying very hard not to tell some people what I think. I can be just as cutting back. I like to say it how it is.


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## Tendo64 (Nov 19, 2020)

quoting_mungo said:


> *On language:* “a transgender” and “transgenderism” are examples of language that isn’t really used in trans*-friendly places. It’s dehumanizing.


Honestly though, I hate the word "transgenderism" so much. We ain't a religion.


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

Tendo64 said:


> Honestly though, I hate the word "transgenderism" so much. We ain't a religion.


Would a good way to think about it be that transgender is an adjective, not a noun?


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## mangomango (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> Would a good way to think about it be that transgender is an adjective, not a noun?


I think that's more accurate. Using the word "transgender" as a noun (like in "a transgender") kinda implies (at least to me) that trans people are separate or different in a bad way from other people. Using it as an adjective (like in "trans person") makes it feel more normal to me and like it's an aspect of a regular person, not some foreign entity . Hope that makes sense!


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

mangomango said:


> I think that's more accurate. Using the word "transgender" as a noun (like in "a transgender") kinda implies (at least to me) that trans people are separate or different in a bad way from other people. Using it as an adjective (like in "trans person") makes it feel more normal to me and like it's an aspect of a regular person, not some foreign entity . Hope that makes sense!


Yes. You wouldn't say "the blacks," so don't say "the transgenders" either. It kind of feels like you are making an aspect of them their whole identity and lumping them in the same group as every other trans folk ^^


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## Deleted member 115426 (Nov 19, 2020)

I think I'm gonna leave this site with Lucy. Clearly this site doesn't care about its trans members. It's sad. So. Cya.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> I think I'm gonna leave this site with Lucy. Clearly this site doesn't care about its trans members. It's sad. So. Cya.


Aw, that sucks. Stay safe, Ovidia.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

I feel like I will be banned for saying something like this, but seriously, if trans people are getting shoved off the website by really rude people, the mods should DO SOMETHING! You are losing users because FAF is becoming less welcoming and friendly. It's upsetting.


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## Tendo64 (Nov 19, 2020)

Ovidia Dragoness said:


> I think I'm gonna leave this site with Lucy. Clearly this site doesn't care about its trans members. It's sad. So. Cya.


That's fair. Wish you luck.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

damn this some good ass popcorn ngl


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> damn this some good ass popcorn ngl


Dude, zip it.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> damn this some good ass popcorn ngl


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

Go on. Keep walking down that road. It'll come back to bite you in the ass


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## RogueNoodle (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> "some of you people" not naming specifics because I don't really know who guys fucking are prior to me coming back to this wreck of a forum. This is just my general feeling with "some of you people"
> 
> My biggest gripe with "some of you people" is how you let being a "transgender" be your defining characteristic. "some people" are so inundated with transgender identity that people completely forgot the characteristics that matters the most like humility and personal fortitude.
> 
> This is why I find it pathetic at all these grasping of strawman


I haven't been active on these forums for a bit, and I know poking at a sensitive issue might not be the best idea. That aside, I would like throw in my two-cents when it comes to this argument just because I hear this so often.

I can't speak for everyone, but I never see these "uwu tumblr twitter trans teens" that people love to bash on so often out in the wild. Trans people don't typically walk around waving the trans flag, shouting their pronouns like you seem to be implying. The real world can be an unwelcoming place for LGBTQ+ folk. I'm not sure if you're anywhere on that spectrum, but the trans experience is a unique one. Internet culture has provided these individuals a lot of spaces to discuss who they are. Have you considered that these individuals come off as basing their whole personality on their gender because they're celebrating their identity in these online safe places? Have you ever taken the time to ask about their other interests? You're on a furry forum! Clearly these trans individuals have more to them than you think. Perhaps some of the problem comes from how you're viewing online trans communities. I'm not trans, so anyone with more personal experience please feel free to pipe in.

In short, I'm not sure what your personal experiences have been offline, but I have yet to meet a trans or nonbinary individual that wasn't a normal human with emotions, personality, and depth. Sure everyone is human (and humans can suck!), but I think ultimately everyone just wants to be treated with respect here.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

RogueNoodle said:


> I haven't been active on these forums for a bit, and I know poking at a sensitive issue might not be the best idea. That aside, I would like throw in my two-cents when it comes to this argument just because I hear this so often.
> 
> I can't speak for everyone, but I never see these "uwu tumblr twitter trans teens" that people love to bash on so often out in the wild. Trans people don't typically walk around waving the trans flag, shouting their pronouns like you seem to be implying. The real world can be an unwelcoming place for LGBTQ+ folk. I'm not sure if you're anywhere on that spectrum, but the trans experience is a unique one. Internet culture has provided these individuals a lot of spaces to discuss who they are. Have you considered that these individuals come off as basing their whole personality on their gender because they're celebrating their identity in these online safe places? Have you ever taken the time to ask about their other interests? You're on a furry forum! Clearly these trans individuals have more to them than you think. Perhaps some of the problem comes from how you're viewing online trans communities. I'm not trans, so anyone with more personal experience please feel free to pipe in.
> 
> In short, I'm not sure what your personal experiences have been offline, but I have yet to meet a trans or nonbinary individual that wasn't a normal human with emotions, personality, and depth. Sure everyone is human (and humans can suck!), but I think ultimately everyone just wants to be treated with respect here.


Oh I know. That's why I specifically said "some people" because I understand that I could be touching generalization

I know most people aren't like the ones I annotated above. Hence I brought up RedSavage. The coolest person I've ever met, who happens to be trans

Understand that last sentence. I word it like that for a reason


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

Can we stop this, please?
We were just about to get back on track and now this.

So many of these posts are not thread relevant and should either be made into their own topic or kept to yourself. If your hearts are truly set on hating each other so much that you cannot coexist in one positivity thread together, then I implore you to block and ignore. Venting all this anger whenever you see each other does no one any good.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)




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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

I remember watching a YT video by a trans person. I remember her mentioning how validating it felt when people (strangers) in the real world finally started recognizing her as a woman, based on her appearance alone. It was interesting and a bit touching.

I assume this is out of reach to a lot of trans people ... many are forced to stay in the closet, aren't they? I've also heard of trans-people in the middle of transitioning being referred to as 'it' ...

Regardless, I wish the trans people here luck in transitioning to their real gender. I hope you manage to overcome all the challenges and bumps on that road.

And hey, I wonder, are there trans people here who have fully transitioned and settled to their real gender? How did the whole transitioning go? Are you happier now than before?


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## Miles Marsalis (Nov 19, 2020)

ASTA said:


> Everyone's tired of that shit now. Time to move on.


I feel from the general reaction on this thread, you and a few other are tired of being disciplined, rather than the majority of the forum. I'd even say that a few recent bans illustrate where the mods stand on transphobia, though I feel they could additional, more permanent action in light of recent events such how these threads have devolved because of transphobic users derailing with derogatory comments and concern trolling. I think it's especially gutless and cowardly that some parties are feigning neutrality and unconcern about the topics of these threads when a disinterested party wouldn't bother to post and mind their own business.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I think it's especially gutless and cowardly that some parties are feigning neutrality and unconcern about the topics of these threads when a disinterested party wouldn't bother to post and mind their own business.


I'm just memeing and contributing nothing just like I do in real life


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

ASTA said:


> People in general are better behaved offline because the numerous inbuilt psychological and physiological mechanisms that control and retard the more unsavory aspects of human behavior during instances of face-to-face social interaction remain in play whenever two or people engage in conversation. There's more risk associated with saying the wrong thing.
> 
> Online though? Different ballgame. Anonymity prevents those same mechanisms from doing their good work hence why you have so many people on the internet who believe that they can get away with calling other people some of the foulest names in the book. Here on FAF, you can slap people with the transphobe label all day without incurring any real repercussions from the accused and telling people that they're basically pieces of cisgendered human shit and whatnot will net you tons of likes and big-ups from other users.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day, if there's no blatant hatred being thrown around, then I get how it can be annoying to be accused of it. Been in that position once myself, so I can relate on that front.

However, I don't think anybody's innocent in this matter. If we're gonna move on, we'll do it right.

I agree with you that SSJ's departure shouldn't mean everybody can suddently go gung-ho and break the rules. However, I didn't think they were aligned with anybody in particular. Have only been here a year, just over. Can't exactly say I have complete first hand experience.

*If the users accused today genuinely have no problem with people who are transgender *and this was all a huge misunderstanding, then that's fine by me. *So long as we both agree that the things said by those users are red flags* to people who are transgender and it triggered said misunderstanding.

I'll apologise if we move on and say we're both going to be better about this sort of thing in future. Now, *doesn't mean I'm gonna turn a blind eye to everything* and certainly doesn't mean that people will follow the same path as me. On this occasion, I'll say 'shit was said and things went down'. I think that's a fair enough descriptor.

If you agree to take this as an experience, same as I will, then I'll call it a day.

So that's where I'm gonna stand on it.

My advice? If you're worried about being misunderstood, it's better to just...not say anything.

*However, if we do have run-ins with the same crowd again, that will be yet another red flag. Again, no one here is innocent and no one here is perfect. We all make mistakes and we should learn from them.*


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## Miles Marsalis (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Oh fuck off lad. You don't get to interpret intent on this forum.


There is little left to interpret when a man repeatedly goes out of his way to post about a topic he allegedly cares nothing about, has been disciplined by moderation multiple time for trafficking in hate speech as well as conspiracy theories, and a marked history of making threads with transphobic intent.


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## contemplationistwolf (Nov 19, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> So long as we both agree that the things said by those users are red flags to people who are transgender and it triggered said misunderstanding.


Please stop moralizing! This thread was already starting to go in a decent direction. You don't need to keep bringing this stuff up, especially since this has already been talked to death. The real offenses were already appropriately addressed long ago.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

Miles Marsalis said:


> There is little left to interpret when a man repeatedly goes out of his way to post about a topic he allegedly cares nothing about, has been disciplined by moderation multiple time for trafficking in hate speech as well as conspiracy theories, and a marked history of making threads with transphobic intent.


Hahaha that's really cute dude.


But you should really fuck off, you reek of bullshit


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

oh dear.


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## Miles Marsalis (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Hahaha that's really cute dude.
> 
> 
> But you should really fuck off, you reek of bullshit


Respectfully, this is part of why much of the user base has problems with you and others who have been derailing here. You have no concept of respect for others and yet you demand respect from others, only to squander it on hateful jabs, petty insults, and disrespect for laughs.


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## KD142000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Moreover, there has been a lot of damage done today. Some users feel that they can't be around the forums anymore. Some have just left temporarily, hoping it's better when they return.

I think we should all make an effort to make everybody welcome, so long as they abide by the rules and don't spew hatred where it's not asked for. That, in my mind, is fair to everybody. That's what we should work towards.

But incidents like today can't go on forever. Eventually, people will be brought to anger and will lash out.


contemplationistwolf said:


> Please stop moralizing! This thread was already starting to go in a decent direction. You don't need to keep bringing this stuff up, especially since this has already been talked to death. The real offenses were already appropriately addressed long ago.


Don't get aggressive, thanks. You'll notice I said 'red flags'. As in 'could be misinterpreted' and both parties should understand that.

*Red flags are indicators that something is suspicious or malicious. It is NOT an attack on you or your friends. It is highlighting how this can be taken the wrong way, like you claim it has been.*

That's the fairest thing that's been said all day, here, and here you are bringing it back to a boil. I HAVE to mention it. Otherwise there's no context, no proper intent, no nothing.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Respectfully, this is part of why much of the user base has problems with you and others who have been derailing here. You have no concept of respect for others and yet you demand respect from others, only to squander it on hateful jabs, petty insults, and disrespect for laughs.


I don't expect you or anyone to respect me nor do I hand out respect towards people who clearly don't deserve it. 

Let me repeat myself again. Fuck off and do it as far as possible.

What you say means jack shit to me


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## inkbloom (Nov 19, 2020)

Please, block each other. 
You  have made it excruciatingly clear that you do not wish to hear what the other might have to say. There is no reason to continue this further.


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## VeeStars (Nov 19, 2020)

inkbloom said:


> Please, block each other.
> You  have made it excruciatingly clear that you do not wish to hear what the other might have to say. There is no reason to continue this further.


I've ignored a few people to prevent headaches @.@


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## mangomango (Nov 19, 2020)

This seems to happen with a lot of threads, but I think that neither side is gaining any progress. I don’t agree with where this thread is going and I think we really just need a place for positivity. I’m not saying that we should just let people have their angry opinions, but these arguments we’re sustaining are causing more harm than good. People have left and the thread (that was created with good intentions) is now causing people to feel uncomfortable and spurring arguments. We need a reset - if you’re going to argue please do so privately. Let’s make this a place where we can support each other and celebrate trans identities - and that can start by refusing to engage with people trying to feed the flames.


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## TyraWadman (Nov 19, 2020)

I have been biting my tongue for a while and honestly I'm wondering if at least some of this could have been avoided if I'd mentioned something sooner.

What might have been a better word to use than transphobe?
_Obnoxious. _
Not good enough?
_Distasteful. 

Assuming _this is all stemming from that one post that got deleted about the potato.

Even if it isn't, both 'parties' could have easily demonstrated enough maturity to utilize the ignore and report button instead of trying to bait one another with passive-aggressive jabs about who is right and wrong. It's one thing to be frustrated and upset over something but this particular topic has been raging on for _days_, and that's barely touching on the number of locked/unlocked threads that have resulted from similar instances in the past.

I don't think it's mature for someone to instigate fights. I don't think it's mature for someone to fall for the bait over and over again and exude the exact same toxicity they complain about. I don't think it's mature to neglect a feature that blocks all undesired content from said participant, and then blame staff for not volunteering more of their free time, despite working jobs and tending to their lives amidst a pandemic.

Learn to love yourself and realize that you don't need to put up with this kind of stress. You also don't need to go making more enemies. Block them, and have some faith that the community will follow up with reports where the accused continue to instigate/cause trouble.


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## Guifrog (Nov 19, 2020)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I remember watching a YT video by a trans person. I remember her mentioning how validating it felt when people (strangers) in the real world finally started recognizing her as a woman, based on her appearance alone. It was interesting and a bit touching.
> 
> I assume this is out of reach to a lot of trans people ... many are forced to stay in the closet, aren't they? I've also heard of trans-people in the middle of transitioning being referred to as 'it' ...
> 
> ...



My brother is still in the process. I haven't see him so happy in uh... maybe a decade and a half. I think he's one blessed bastard. 

There's a website called Transempregos, which is meant to help trans* people with finding jobs. Because the general consensus here is, if you're trans = you're a street worker. And if you're a street worker = you're a wrongdoer. And thus nobody wants to hire you. If you're lucky, you still get to live 'til you reach the 40s.

When in fact trans* people end up in the streets _because_ of such discriminatory practices everywhere, from home to school, from school to businesses. Our law doesn't protect them, and what happens to be in the paper stays in the paper. And lawsuits take loooooooooong.

But his family loves him, I love his new beard, he won the @*(#YVN@*# lawsuit against his insurance provider for not bearing the costs on his mastectomy, and he works at a public university, in a most welcome environment, helping out deaf people


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## Miles Marsalis (Nov 19, 2020)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I don't expect you or anyone to respect me nor do I hand out respect towards people who clearly don't deserve it.
> 
> Let me repeat myself again. Fuck off and do it as far as possible.
> 
> What you say means jack shit to me


So why even comment?

Like, reading what the Lucy wrote in the OP, those ask weren't particularly big, yet you seemed incensed enough to comment about it. I could see dropping your opinion about transgender people once and being done with the topic, but why lock horns with a crowd of people transgender and otherwise if you're not invested in the topic?

I'm interested in talking about this like adults if you are.


inkbloom said:


> Please, block each other.
> You  have made it excruciatingly clear that you do not wish to hear what the other might have to say. There is no reason to continue this further.


I'm up for a discussion, but not the disrespect.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

TyraWadman said:


> passive-aggressive jabs


PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE? HAVE YOU SEEN THIS THREAD? PEOPLE WERE CALLING EACH OTHER PISS BABIES 
PISS BABIES. BALLS OF PUSSES ON ASSES.


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## mangomango (Nov 19, 2020)

Good intentions or not, these arguments are negatively impacting the people you’re trying to protect or defend. Please take the arguments somewhere else.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Nov 19, 2020)

Miles Marsalis said:


> So why even comment?
> 
> Like, reading what the Lucy wrote in the OP, those ask weren't particularly big, yet you seemed incensed enough to comment about it. I could see dropping your opinion about transgender people once and being done with the topic, but why lock horns with a crowd of people transgender and otherwise if you're not invested in the topic?
> 
> ...


Sush my good sir. I see through your bullshit. 

Pretending to "speak like reasonable adult" while bringing up ad hominem attacks

Cute sir. Very cute.

Predictable to say the least


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## TyraWadman (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE? HAVE YOU SEEN THIS THREAD? PEOPLE WERE CALLING EACH OTHER PISS BABIES
> PISS BABIES. BALLS OF PUSSES ON ASSES.



I have XD 
But there have been _multiple_ incidents (without said comments) leading up to _that _comment, and my own.


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## pilgrimfromoblivion (Nov 19, 2020)

mangomango said:


> Good intentions or not, these arguments are negatively impacting the people you’re trying to protect or defend. Please take the arguments somewhere else.


i'm not doing either, i'm just wondering why he thought people in this thread were being passive-aggressive as opposed to just straight up cussing each other out


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## mangomango (Nov 19, 2020)

pilgrimfromoblivion said:


> i'm not doing either, i'm just wondering why he thought people in this thread were being passive-aggressive as opposed to just straight up cussing each other out


I wasn’t talking to you specifically, just in general that these arguments aren’t very productive, and in fact the opposite.


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## Tendo64 (Nov 19, 2020)

Y'know at first I was memeing but I'm gonna have to be serious because I hate to see this. We just drove away two trans people because of the bs in this thread and that's sad.

It frustrates me we literally can't EVER have a positive trans-related post on literally any place without people derailing it.

Actually, this goes for ANY subject matter when it comes to this site.

We can post a picture of a cute kitten playing with yarn and it will lead to a dumpster fire every single time. I've never seen a forum filled with so much rivalry and hatred in my life and I'm almost tempted to leave myself. But I'm physically incapable of leaving websites behind it seems and the three month hiatus showed me how attached I am to this forum. Probably a masochist or something.

It just astounds me that, three years later with almost an entirely different set of members, everyone is still hostile towards each other. You'd think it'd get better over time as people come and go but I guess not.


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## luffy (Nov 19, 2020)

Sorry guys, but we've had over 30 reports on this thread alone.  This is why we close them.  Healthy conversation cannot be fostered on this forum it seems.


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