# We need to have a talk about Nazis



## Dragonien (May 12, 2018)

I have been a member of Furaffinity for over 10 years, and this is the first time I've ever felt the need to join the forum and speak about anything. but i am absolutely fed up with what is going on right now and felt that it was my obligation not just as a member of this community but as a human being to start this conversation.


This thread is directly mostly at the moderators and admins that have been enabling what I am about to talk about but is also more loosely directed as a comment to the community as a whole. Because this needs to stop. Let me say it plain and simple, and then I will go into detail so you all can get your knee jerk reaction out of the way then read the nuance.


Nazi’s are bad, and need to be banned.


Now listen.


I’m not going to have a debate on whether you “like uniform design” or “The symbol means other shit” or any of those ridiculous arguments because that’s exactly what they are. Ridiculous. This is about Nazi symbolism whether directly Nazi symbolism or simply alluding to it.


I’ve seen a lot of stuff going around on twitter recently about how more and more people have been having unhelpful at best, and at worse aggressive and awful interactions with mods who I will not point out directly in regards to people reporting and requesting take downs of artwork that depicts Nazi paraphernalia and ideology. And that needs to stop. Right now. If someone is posting shit with swastikas or other similar Nazi imagery or implied ideology Then it needs to be removed IMMEDIATELY and the poster needs to be politely, but firmly warned against doing so in the future.


Nazi’s are wrong. That’s an objective fact. You don’t believe me? We fought the deadliest war in human history where 60 MILLION people died, to PROVE ONCE AND FOR ALL that Nazi’s and their ideology is wrong. Their ideology which stands for an arbitrary sense of superiority over other people and the LITERAL EXTERMINATION OF THOSE THEY SEE AS LESSER THAN THEM. That is what their belief is founded on. That they can and should murder those they see as inferior to them. That is a threat that literally means their very existence is threatening to specific groups of people. And I don’t mean in like the “People are scared of them” kind of threatening, I mean the “Their literally existence is an actual literal threat to the safety of certain groups of people”


We cannot control people’s thoughts, and even if we could we shouldn’t. we can’t stop Joe Bob Thorton from hating Jews or black people. But we can limit his influence. Because again, we LITERALLY FOUGHT A WAR WHERE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED, to prove that Nazi ideology is objectively wrong and has no place in modern society. For decades society policed itself, forcing social pressure down on the leftover dregs of those groups and keeping them feeling some sense of shame of their beliefs and forcing them to keep it to themselves. But due to recent events I will not get into for fear of turning this into a political shitshow of a conversation, certain groups such as Nazis and White Supremacists have felt empowered enough that they could come out of the shadows and literally march down American streets chanting Nazi chants without fear of repercussion. And that is wrong.


Not only are Nazi’s objectively wrong in their beliefs, but any and every one that gives them any kind of platform, positive or even neutral coverage in any way is just as bad as they are. Because their ideology is objectively wrong whenever it is portrayed in anything other than a negative light it gives it traction to try to worm its way into impressionable other people, and risk spreading the thoughts like a god damn disease. We would never give flat earther’s any kind of positive press. At the absolute most we publicly mock them because their views are objectively wrong and absurd. If we gave them a legitimate platform to debate why the earth is flat we would literally be undoing part of human progress that has proven and build upon the idea that the world is round. And Nazi ideology is exactly the same. Every time you give it a platform to have any kind of debate to its validity you are regressing humanity back decades to before world war two when we didn’t know for a fact that Nazi-ism is wrong. You are literally undoing human progress.


Even more specifically in the context of the furry community which is fundamentally built on the ideology of inclusion, Nazi-ism is toxic on a whole other level. It was Philosopher Karl Popper that proposed the idea of unlimited tolerance would lead to the extinction of all tolerance. It’s a paradox but one that is required for society to progress. “When you extend tolerance to those who are openly intolerant the tolerant ones end up being destroyed, and tolerance with them. Any movement that preaches intolerance and persecution must be outside the law. As paradoxical as it seems, Defending tolerance requires to not tolerate the intolerant.”


We as an inclusive community cannot tolerate those that champion ideology that is fundamentally intolerant. All that does is perpetuate that intolerance and allow those people to believe that they do still have some place among civil society, which they absolutely do not.


So for those of you that do hold Nazi ideology dear to you, I cannot stop you from thinking that way. All I can do is beg for you to rethink your viewpoints and try to see the world in a different light. And tell you that as long as you hold those ideals you absolutely are not welcome in my community, my society, or my world. And more importantly, to those moderators and administrators that continue to give these people a safe haven and platform you are just as every bit as harmful to society as a whole as the Nazis that you are protecting. It is not a violation of free speech to punish Nazi’s from spreading a hateful, intrinsically threatening ideology across a community built on acceptance and tolerance. If they keep their Nazi views to themselves that is fine, they can keep that stuff in their head and we have no right to do anything about it. But the moment Swastika’s and Nazi-adjacent iconography start popping up on Furaffinity you have an obligation to us as the community and to society as a whole to expunge the remnants of this disgusting perversion of an ideology from the community we have built as a haven for ourselves.


So I beg of you. Do what is right and help society and the community be better, don’t keep trying to undo social progress for fear of hurting the feelings of people whose belief system calls for the murder of those they deem as less than themselves.


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## Arwing Ace (May 12, 2018)

Oh boy, here we go again.... I just _know_ this thread is going to end up being locked.

Obviously you're not being rational, and I don't expect I can change that. But let me just say there's nothing wrong with historical depictions or imagery. Furthermore, history needs to be preserved and taught about, not censored and erased. You need to stop looking for excuses to be triggered and butthurt, and just allow things to be accepted for what they are. Let people make up their own minds about stuff. _"We cannot control people’s thoughts, and even if we could we shouldn’t." _And yet that's exactly what you're demanding be done?

I suspect you're of the same mindset as the shrieking bunch of nutcases who've been pushing to pull down Confederate statues all over the place, because "waycism!!" 

_"It is not a violation of free speech to punish Nazi’s from spreading a hateful, intrinsically threatening ideology across a community built on acceptance and tolerance."_

Actually, yes it is. If you start trying to justify this for one group, then you open the door for it to be extended to anyone. Let people think for themselves and make rational judgements about things on their own, and either accept or reject them based on their own merits. We're not children. We're all adults here, and we should be presumed and _expected _to have the capability of doing that, yes? Stop trying to propagate this sjw, nanny statist "we must control the narrative" group-think mentality, and demanding the same be shoved down everyone's throat. 

And with that said, I will say no more here. I'm going to bow out of this shitfest-in-the-making and move on.


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

if they wont get rid of paedophiles they wont get rid of Nazis dude


Shane McNair said:


> Oh boy, here we go again.... I just _know_ this thread is going to end up being locked.
> 
> Obviously you're not being rational, and I don't expect I can change that. But let me just say there's nothing wrong with historical depictions or imagery. Furthermore, history needs to be preserved and taught about, not censored and erased. You need to stop looking for excuses to be triggered and butthurt, and just allow things to be accepted for what they are. Let people make up their own minds about stuff. _"We cannot control people’s thoughts, and even if we could we shouldn’t." _And yet that's exactly what you're demanding be done?
> 
> ...



Nazism is a difficult one cause they tend to be more vocal on the net but not really doing anything wrong however there is evidence that they are trying to commit IRL crimes that is something i feel mods should put a stop to because if you leave it unchecked then its going to get worse

i know actual Neo Nazis like the kind that would stab Nazi Furs and Alt Furry one of them is actually my IRL friend but what i find is that these people tend to be very simplistic and uneducated i let them voice their opinions and i only step in if they actually start worrying me then i step in

take this one example my friend texted me and said "hey do you want to go out tonight and pick fights with (racial slur)" and instead of just getting #triggered i asked him why he felt that way and slowly over a few ours dissuaded him from going out that night and just invited him to come over and have a few beers

he's actually getting over Nazism these days in part for me and other people actually listening to his concerns instead of just not listening to him and writing him off as a crackpot a lot of these people come from desperation currently the government is actively fighting the working classes under the guise of social justice and diversity and their concerns struggles and worries are not taken seriously by anyone that's why they join these movements


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## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> i know actual Neo Nazis like the kind that would stab Nazi Furs and Alt Furry one of them is actually my IRL friend but what i find is that these people tend to be very simplistic and uneducated i let them voice their opinions and i only step in if they actually start worrying me then i step in
> 
> take this one example my friend texted me and said "hey do you want to go out tonight and pick fights with (racial slur)" and instead of just getting #triggered i asked him why he felt that way and slowly over a few ours dissuaded him from going out that night and just invited him to come over and have a few beers
> 
> he's actually getting over Nazism these days in part for me and other people actually listening to his concerns instead of just not listening to him and writing him off as a crackpot a lot of these people come from desperation currently the government is actively fighting the working classes under the guise of social justice and diversity and their concerns struggles and worries are not taken seriously by anyone that's why they join these movements



I do that sometimes when people make racist or sexist jokes in front of me in person.  I try not to get mad, I just say “I don’t get it” and get them to make themselves look like a bigoted fuckface as they stumble over their words and try to explain why jokes about killing Jews are funny.

Back to OP, I agree with you but past experience has proven that these sorts of threads do nothing to help.  I really don’t mean this to be a cop out answer but I’ve see how threads like these go down.  You’d have to explore other avenues and dedicate more time and resources if you’re serious about it.


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## Izzy4895 (May 12, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> if they wont get rid of paedophiles they wont get rid of Nazis dude
> 
> 
> Nazism is a difficult one cause they tend to be more vocal on the net but not really doing anything wrong however there is evidence that they are trying to commit IRL crimes that is something i feel mods should put a stop to because if you leave it unchecked then its going to get worse



They murdered Heather Heyer and injured others in an ISIS-style car attack not too long ago in the USA. It’s quite clear-cut that Nazis are deleterious in nature. Furthermore, their ultimate goal is the extermination of BILLIONS of people. Identification with Nazis and other hate groups is supposed to be prohibited as per Section 2.7 of the site’s rules.

Blacks, Jews, etc. don’t have the luxury of being able to write off Nazis as mere “cranks”.


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## Dragonien (May 12, 2018)

Shane McNair said:


> Oh boy, here we go again.... I just _know_ this thread is going to end up being locked.
> 
> Obviously you're not being rational, and I don't expect I can change that. But let me just say there's nothing wrong with historical depictions or imagery. Furthermore, history needs to be preserved and taught about, not censored and erased. You need to stop looking for excuses to be triggered and butthurt, and just allow things to be accepted for what they are. Let people make up their own minds about stuff. _"We cannot control people’s thoughts, and even if we could we shouldn’t." _And yet that's exactly what you're demanding be done?
> 
> ...




Historical Depictions or imagery are acceptable if they are given the proper context, which 99% of the time they are not. Nazi-ism is easily one of the worst things to ever come out of humanity, so for it to not have that clearly portrayed in any depiction of it is disingenuous at best, willfully misleading at worst. 

its very telling that you automatically call the people pushing for the relocation of confederate statues "Shrieking nutcases". No one has ever for a moment tried to erase confederacy from american history. HOWEVER, having grown up in texas i can absolutely say slavery has been attempted to be expunged from history considering how little it was spoken of in my American and Texas history textbooks. But the point around the confederate statues is a much different topic but i'll go ahead and lay it out real quick. those statues should be in museums, sure I'm totally fine with that and that's what most people are suggesting. but they have ABSOLUTELY no place whatsoever being on public land. do you want to know why? because the confederates were. LITERALLY. traitors against america. they are the single most unamerican group of people that has existed in the entire history of America. The confederates led an ARMED REBELLION AGAINST AMERICA. that is literally the definition of treason. Not only that. they LOST THEIR WAR. so why does it make sense to have so many monuments honoring LITERAL TRAITORS WHO LOST THEIR WAR? its because those monuments have nothing to really do with the confederacy. if you research your history the vast majority of them were placed a LONG time after the civil war ended, during the height of Jim Crow and were blatantly used as intimidation against African Americans. So there's only 2 things those statues can stand for. Either they are monuments to african american oppression, or they are monuments to traitors against america. either one has no place being on public land. 

but back on topic. I know the whole "Slippery slope if you ban this one thing you open the door to banning other things" argument is super popular. but its not really a slippery slope. its really easy to say "Ban nazis, that's it" because unlike many other things that are controvercial like say, homosexuality or various religions, None of those things had LITERAL WARS fought to prove them wrong. I'm pretty sure its safe to say if 60 million people die to prove something is wrong then its ok for us to universally agree its wrong and not erase it from history, but ban it from being glorified in the public eye. It deserves to be taught in schools as a cautionary tale of "This is literally like, in the top 5 worst things humanity has ever done" not something to parade around on a community website like "MAN I LOVE NAZI SOLDIER UNIFORMS HOW COOL ARE THESE THINGS?!"

but seriously, if you can't try to get your point across without insulting people you probably need to re-examine your viewpoint or at least the way that you try to debate a point becaise being a dick doesn't help your case. This has nothing to do with social justice this has to do with an objectively awful ideology that is harmful to society and squashing it before it can spread. because as much as we like to say that people are smart and intelligent enough to make their own decisions thats just not true. theres enough stupid and gullable people in the world to cause real problems if people put the wrong ideas in their heads. Look at what happens when Anti-vaxxers get their word across a bunch of ignorant parents? We gete an outbreak of a disease we had all but wiped out. Look what happens when islamic extremists get their word out into a bunch of pissed off, gullible middle-easterners. we get extremists groups like ISIS. Society has to walk at the pace of its slowest members and sadly, some of society is not able to be trusted with making rational decisions about some ideologies like "i wonder if i should exterminate all the jews or hang black people" so the rest of society has to shelter those people from viewpoints we know FOR A FACT are objectively harmful and wrong.


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## Dragonien (May 12, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> They murdered Heather Heyer and injured others in an ISIS-style car attack not too long ago in the USA. It’s quite clear-cut that Nazis are deleterious in nature. Furthermore, their ultimate goal is the extermination of BILLIONS of people. Identification with Nazis and other hate groups is supposed to be prohibited as per Section 2.7 of the site’s rules.
> 
> Blacks, Jews, etc. don’t have the luxury of being able to write off Nazis as mere “cranks”.



This is exactly what I'm trying to get across. Some groups of people cant just write these people off because their very existence as part of this ideological group is a literal, physical threat of danger against them.


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> They murdered Heather Heyer and injured others in an ISIS-style car attack not too long ago in the USA. It’s quite clear-cut that Nazis are deleterious in nature. Furthermore, their ultimate goal is the extermination of BILLIONS of people. Identification with Nazis and other hate groups is supposed to be prohibited as per Section 2.7 of the site’s rules.
> 
> Blacks, Jews, etc. don’t have the luxury of being able to write off Nazis as mere “cranks”.



what these people don't understand however is that Hitler himself would have had them shot this is what i mean by they are uneducated they honestly don't understand Nazism the guy i was talking about didn't even know who Rommel or Göring were these people in Hitlers eyes would have been impure thugs not worthy of his time

they also selectively ignore how hated Hitler actually was by a lot of the German people particularly his staff and Generals towards the end of the war they just don't understand the history they read "my struggle" and become brainwashed




Dragonien said:


> its very telling that you automatically call the people pushing for the relocation of confederate statues "Shrieking nutcases"



if you're suggesting Shane is alt right he's really not he's one of the most centrist people on the forums

ok put it this way do you despise the fact that Rommel is still seen as some one who's not only looked up to but also has sautes and is still celebrated yearly in Germany


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> and get them to make themselves look like a bigoted fuckface as they stumble over their words and try to explain why jokes about killing Jews are funny.



the only one i knew who made a jew joke as a jew himself

there was an awkward moment when some one told the jew that the guy standing next to him was a Nazi and the jew suddenly broke the ice by making jew jokes they became friends and as i said its impart to why my mate is slowly de-radicalising

people get too passionate about this stuff "punch a nazi" "punish a muslim day" "kill all men" none of this is going to fucking help anything you need civilised dialog and find open ground to build a working understanding relationship of one another

this is why i hate America so much a lot of people think things like BLM is a good idea but its still segregationist its just going to reaffirm bigoted views


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## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> Historical Depictions or imagery are acceptable if they are given the proper context, which 99% of the time they are not. Nazi-ism is easily one of the worst things to ever come out of humanity, so for it to not have that clearly portrayed in any depiction of it is disingenuous at best, willfully misleading at worst.
> 
> its very telling that you automatically call the people pushing for the relocation of confederate statues "Shrieking nutcases". No one has ever for a moment tried to erase confederacy from american history. HOWEVER, having grown up in texas i can absolutely say slavery has been attempted to be expunged from history considering how little it was spoken of in my American and Texas history textbooks. But the point around the confederate statues is a much different topic but i'll go ahead and lay it out real quick. those statues should be in museums, sure I'm totally fine with that and that's what most people are suggesting. but they have ABSOLUTELY no place whatsoever being on public land. do you want to know why? because the confederates were. LITERALLY. traitors against america. they are the single most unamerican group of people that has existed in the entire history of America. The confederates led an ARMED REBELLION AGAINST AMERICA. that is literally the definition of treason. Not only that. they LOST THEIR WAR. so why does it make sense to have so many monuments honoring LITERAL TRAITORS WHO LOST THEIR WAR? its because those monuments have nothing to really do with the confederacy. if you research your history the vast majority of them were placed a LONG time after the civil war ended, during the height of Jim Crow and were blatantly used as intimidation against African Americans. So there's only 2 things those statues can stand for. Either they are monuments to african american oppression, or they are monuments to traitors against america. either one has no place being on public land.
> 
> ...


Basically this.  A little off topic, but no sane person has ever demanded the demolition of statues or confederate flags.  They belong in a museum.  Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.  We must keep past injustices fresh in our memories.  Same goes for Nazism, and I’ve even seen people on these forums flat out deny the Holocaust even happened.  It’s horrifying.


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## Troj (May 12, 2018)

People particularly need to remember that every instance of apartheid, genocide, oppression, or state-sponsored terrorism required the compliance and complicity of the everyday person in order to gain traction.

As a result, I'm much more worried about the Useful Idiot who's fallen for the "rational," "calm," and "sensible" persona put forth by the savvier fascists, the Apathetic who's chosen not to care because it doesn't affect them, and the Status Quo Warrior who disguises their own fear of change under a lot of lofty rhetoric and elaborate rationalizations.


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## Yakamaru (May 12, 2018)

This will be an interesting thread to watch. Always someone who have a kink for Godwin's Law..

And no. There is no "ideology" following being a Furry. That is something brought in from the outside.


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## Yakamaru (May 12, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> don't be a dickhead and troll people just watch the thread from silence we all know you're with Alt Furry


It's a statement I have made, yes. What's your point? 

How many threads have we seen on anything even remotely like this topic? They always devolve into a shitstorm and end up getting locked.


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> It's a statement I have made, yes. What's your point?
> 
> How many threads have we seen on anything even remotely like this topic? They always devolve into a shitstorm and end up getting locked.



because you always just get into a heated rage match with people just stay out of it this time mungo banned me once for trying to defend your points before


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## Yakamaru (May 12, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> because you always just get into a heated rage match with people just stay out of it this time mungo banned me once for trying to defend your points before


I have contributed in the past, yes. I won't deny that fact. Don't follow the rules, you feel the consequences of that. 

Anyways. I am not interested in a debate on an already dead topic. Have a nice day, mate.


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I have contributed in the past, yes. I won't deny that fact. Don't follow the rules, you feel the consequences of that.
> 
> Anyways. I am not interested in a debate on an already dead topic. Have a nice day, mate.




this is why we don't dock anymore


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## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

Oh look, these talking points again. Seems there's a lot here i could delve into and debate but i'm too tired to atm. Shame as the OP's way of thinking is, in my opinion, fundamentally flawed, harmful and potentially hypocritical. Hope this thread isn't locked before i get the opportunity to respond properly.

Also, thanks for giving me an excuse to post a video i stumbled across earlier.


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## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

So flat out saying “Nazis are wrong” is a disagreeable statement?


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## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> So flat out saying “Nazis are wrong” is a disagreeable statement?


No. Nazis, like all proponents of absolutist collectivist ideologies, are fundamentally harmful to society at large.

What's disagreeable is the mentality of the modern opponents of "Nazis" and the wider reaching consequences of their beliefs regarding them.


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## Izzy4895 (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> So flat out saying “Nazis are wrong” is a disagreeable statement?



Kyr was employing gas-lighting to downplay the Alt-Right/Nazi terror attack that killed Heather Heyer in a recent thread about alleged threats from Antifa furs, so it’s patently obvious where he stands on this issue.


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## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> Kyr was employing gas-lighting to downplay the Alt-Right/Nazi terror attack that killed Heather Heyer in a recent thread about alleged threats from Antifa furs, so it’s patently obvious where he stands on this issue.


It’s depressing that the idea of giving legitimate Nazis a safe space because of some “freedom of speech” playing card argument is now something that’s become acceptable. My great grandpa would be rolling in his urn if he could see this.


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## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> Kyr was employing gas-lighting to downplay the Alt-Right/Nazi terror attack that killed Heather Heyer in a recent thread about alleged threats from Antifa furs, so it’s patently obvious where he stands on this issue.


Explain to me how i was gas-lighting please. All i've seen from you regarding my thought processes pertaining to Charlottesville is blind dismissal because i questioned a narrative that seems outlandish. Refute my points instead of inferring incorrect intentions or beliefs from my words.

In short, respond like a mature adult.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 12, 2018)

The word Nazi for me has lost all meaning.
Thanks you far-left cunts.


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## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> It’s depressing that the idea of giving legitimate Nazis a safe space because of some “freedom of speech” playing card argument is now something that’s become acceptable. My great grandpa would be rolling in his urn if he could see this.


Fuck Nazis.

Hate speech is free speech.


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## BahgDaddy (May 12, 2018)

I don't agree with extending freedom of speech principles to Nazis, Nazism, or Nazi imagery unless it's in a historical context. Such people can easily avoid such imagery, and any responsible person with half a brain will.

That said, is there any point to this latest witch hunt?


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> No. Nazis, like all proponents of absolutist collectivist ideologies, are fundamentally harmful to society at large.
> 
> What's disagreeable is the mentality of the modern opponents of "Nazis" and the wider reaching consequences of their beliefs regarding them.



we're not talking SJWs saying you're a Nazi cause you disagree with them or are a white male we're talking about Neo Nazis and KKK 


Izzy4895 said:


> Kyr was employing gas-lighting to downplay the Alt-Right/Nazi terror attack that killed Heather Heyer in a recent thread about alleged threats from Antifa furs, so it’s patently obvious where he stands on this issue.






Izzy4895 said:


> Kyr was employing gas-lighting to downplay the Alt-Right/Nazi terror attack that killed Heather Heyer in a recent thread about alleged threats from Antifa furs, so it’s patently obvious where he stands on this issue.



oh shut up dude i'm pretty central and let everyone speak but he said nothing about the fucking attack there's videos out there showing the exact same thing rioters start beating up on a random car driver gets frightened and hits the gas pedal i believe that the driver was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and they were charged because those Antifa fuckwits wanted some ones blood


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## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

Basically saying that you implying Hayes’s death was an accident after charges have been filed and the facts are out.  Fact is he was a skinhead fuck with homicidal tendencies.  There’s only two sides on this one, either you agree with the facts or you’re trying to stir shit and admittedly doing it really unsuccessfully.  Bit too pokey on those tactics, mang


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## BahgDaddy (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Fuck Nazis.
> 
> Hate speech is free speech.



No, it's not. It's unethical, immature, and infantile useage of free speech.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 12, 2018)

Hate speech is free speech :V


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## Casey Fluffbat (May 12, 2018)

tl;dr


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## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Basically saying that you implying Hayes’s death was an accident after charges have been filed and the facts are out.  Fact is he was a skinhead fuck with homicidal tendencies.  There’s only two sides on this one, either you agree with the facts or you’re trying to stir shit and admittedly doing it really unsuccessfully.  Bit too pokey on those tactics, mang



then show me i don't know much about it i just saw it happening and proponents and witnesses from all sides saying it wasn't really a terrorist attack but just a frightened driver

you can't trust things these days look at what happened with Count Dankula even in America the cops in berkley have been outed as being told to stand down to allow antifa to beat up people protesting for free speech


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## Izzy4895 (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> It’s depressing that the idea of giving legitimate Nazis a safe space because of some “freedom of speech” playing card argument is now something that’s become acceptable. My great grandpa would be rolling in his urn if he could see this.



Back in the 1940’s, enlisted Americans, British, Russians, resistance fighters, etc. knew how to deal with Nazis.



Kyr said:


> Explain to me how i was gas-lighting please. All i've seen from you regarding my thought processes pertaining to Charlottesville is blind dismissal because i questioned a narrative that seems outlandish. Refute my points instead of inferring incorrect intentions or beliefs from my words.
> 
> In short, respond like a mature adult.



The evidence was already posted for all to see. Perhaps you shoukd stop trying to insult my intelligence and come clean with your support for fascism while we are on the subject of “mature adults”.


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## Troj (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> It’s depressing that the idea of giving legitimate Nazis a safe space because of some “freedom of speech” playing card argument is now something that’s become acceptable. My great grandpa would be rolling in his urn if he could see this.



Two problems that muddy, distract, and distort the free speech debate:

1a) These days especially, the loudest proponents of "muh freeze peach" are often too happy to silence _their_ critics, and they're usually dead silent when people they don't like are being censored in ways they claimed were unjust when it was done to _them. _The pattern that emerges is that these people are only willing to defend opinions that they're fine with personally.
1b) It's maddening when people are obviously too chickenshit to just say they agree with a controversial idea or polarizing person.
_2) _People inevitably end up talking past each other in conversations about speech because for some reason, nobody draws a distinction between what should or shouldn't be permitted legally and what should or shouldn't be permitted socially. So, what results is this all-or-nothing argument over expression, with both parties each refusing to give _any_ ground for fear of losing what they deeply cherish.


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## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> we're not talking SJWs saying you're a Nazi cause you disagree with them or are a white male we're talking about Neo Nazis and KKK


As am i to an extent, but most of my interactions regarding this nonsense have been in relation to the idea of Nazis within the fandom.


WithMyBearHands said:


> Basically saying that you implying Hayes’s death was an accident after charges have been filed and the facts are out.  Fact is he was a skinhead fuck with homicidal tendencies.  There’s only two sides on this one, either you agree with the facts or you’re trying to stir shit and admittedly doing it really unsuccessfully.  Bit too pokey on those tactics, mang


I'm gonna level with you. I'm not American and the modern political disaster that is your country is little more than a source of entertainment for me, i don't follow it closely. What happened with Heather, all i ever saw was hate. It's understandable, two ideologically opposed groups clashed and that resulted in a completely unnecessary and avoidable death. Lot of space for anger to fester in that, and i honestly hate that when people look back they won't see Heather as a human being but as a political talking point. I do agree with the facts, there is absolutely no other way to live for me than to accept the truth, no matter what it may be. To that end everything i've said or will say regarding this entire dimwitted debate regarding Nazis is to find the truth. I'm unbiased and i don't make assumptions either way, and when i see someone equating a hit and run (the literal bare bones definition of what happened) with an ISIS style terrorist attack i can't help but think that's little more than a bullshit conclusion fuelled by the same anger that caused Heather's death in the first place. So i inqure, as neutrally as possible, to find out the truth of matters i deem important.

And frankly it fucking infuriates me that people in your "camp" (at least on the forums it should be very clear what i mean by that) like to insinuate that i'm an Alt Right propagandist or some similar drivel because i try to approach things critically.


BahgDaddy said:


> No, it's not. It's unethical, immature, and infantile useage of free speech.


It is all of those things, and people are free to be unethical, immature and infantile. Every action has it's consequence.


----------



## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> As am i to an extent, but most of my interactions regarding this nonsense have been in relation to the idea of Nazis within the fandom.



but there are Nazis in the fandom this is factual its not an idea or speculation

i don't know why since actual Neo Nazis would fucking kill them


----------



## LogicNuke (May 12, 2018)

I find it extremely interesting who wants this thread to be locked for "causing drama."

@Kyr Whether you're either gas-lighting or gloriously ignorant, you're wrong. Shortly after the Remove Antifa thread was removed, you messaged me this garbage:



Kyr said:


> You have nothing but your own bias to back up that statement.
> 
> Now, what i was referring to earlier when i waded into this was something that doesn't actually hold much weight. Months back i remembered reading about an Antifa protester that claimed to have "driven off" James Fields with an assault rifle shortly before the hit and run. This to me suggested that Fields' actions could've been the result of him genuinely panicking and fearing for his life. Here's a link to the info:
> 
> ...



Several sites with extremely questionable journalistic ethics and credibility such as WND and Infowars ran the story you linked, despite the fact that is was debunked in days by the Associated Press and the federal terrorism investigation. And if you're doubting it was an act of terrorism against Americans, read this:

www.nytimes.com: Sessions Emerges as Forceful Figure in Condemning Charlottesville Violence



Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The word Nazi for me has lost all meaning.
> Thanks you far-left cunts.


The perpetrator of the attack belonged to a Neo-Nazi group. An American died and 34 were injured. When the Aum Shinrikyo Sarin gas attack happened, Americans didn't make light of that. Don't call us cunts for calling out terrorist for what he is.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> As am i to an extent, but most of my interactions regarding this nonsense have been in relation to the idea of Nazis within the fandom.
> 
> I'm gonna level with you. I'm not American and the modern political disaster that is your country is little more than a source of entertainment for me, i don't follow it closely. What happened with Heather, all i ever saw was hate. It's understandable, two ideologically opposed groups clashed and that resulted in a completely unnecessary and avoidable death. Lot of space for anger to fester in that, and i honestly hate that when people look back they won't see Heather as a human being but as a political talking point. I do agree with the facts, there is absolutely no other way to live for me than to accept the truth, no matter what it may be. To that end everything i've said or will say regarding this entire dimwitted debate regarding Nazis is to find the truth. I'm unbiased and i don't make assumptions either way, and when i see someone equating a hit and run (the literal bare bones definition of what happened) with an ISIS style terrorist attack i can't help but think that's little more than a bullshit conclusion fuelled by the same anger that caused Heather's death in the first place. So i inqure, as neutrally as possible, to find out the truth of matters i deem important.
> 
> ...


You’re not unbiased, you’re ignorant.  And I mean that in the most neutral way I know how to put it, in the sense that you are uneducated about what’s really going on and what the real facts are.  There are businesses within 100 miles of me that refuse to serve people of color, as well as any other minorities.  This is not up for debate.


----------



## GreenZone (May 12, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I find it extremely interesting who wants this thread to be locked for "causing drama."
> 
> @Kyr Whether you're either gas-lighting or gloriously ignorant, you're wrong. Shortly after the Remove Antifa thread was removed, you messaged me this garbage:
> 
> ...




i can't really argue with the AG so i will admit i was wrong and that it was in fact a terrorist attack


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

I will agree that throwing the word Nazi around weakens the word and makes it insincere, but I am not ignoring nor hiding my distaste for people who protect these ideologies as well as practice them.  Why on earth would you protect them?  Nazis are sub human.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> As am i to an extent, but most of my interactions regarding this nonsense have been in relation to the idea of Nazis within the fandom.
> 
> I'm gonna level with you. I'm not American and the modern political disaster that is your country is little more than a source of entertainment for me, i don't follow it closely. What happened with Heather, all i ever saw was hate. It's understandable, two ideologically opposed groups clashed and that resulted in a completely unnecessary and avoidable death. Lot of space for anger to fester in that, and i honestly hate that when people look back they won't see Heather as a human being but as a political talking point. I do agree with the facts, there is absolutely no other way to live for me than to accept the truth, no matter what it may be. To that end everything i've said or will say regarding this entire dimwitted debate regarding Nazis is to find the truth. I'm unbiased and i don't make assumptions either way, and when i see someone equating a hit and run (the literal bare bones definition of what happened) with an ISIS style terrorist attack i can't help but think that's little more than a bullshit conclusion fuelled by the same anger that caused Heather's death in the first place. So i inqure, as neutrally as possible, to find out the truth of matters i deem important.
> 
> ...



But how far do we have to tolerate it within our own sphere? Aren't we free to kick them out? We're not talking government action here. We're talking FA kicking them out.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I will agree that throwing the word Nazi around weakens the word and makes it insincere, but I am not ignoring nor hiding my distaste for people who protect these ideologies as well as practice them.  Why on earth would you protect them?  Nazis are sub human.



They are not sub human. That is the language they use. If you use such language, you are no better than them.


----------



## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Nazis are sub human.


The irony, it truly saddens me.

And i've got no problem with appearing or even being ignorant. If you don't inquire about things you have the vaguest grasp on how are you supposed to educate yourself.

The thing i posted to Logic, yeah it was weak and i even said as much to him. Was simply something i vaguely remembered seeing months back that i thought required examination and that was pertinent to the discussion at hand. Had to ask around for it to be dug up.


----------



## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I find it extremely interesting who wants this thread to be locked for "causing drama."
> 
> @Kyr Whether you're either gas-lighting or gloriously ignorant, you're wrong. Shortly after the Remove Antifa thread was removed, you messaged me this garbage:
> 
> ...


From the article:
Legal experts warned that the facts of the Charlottesville attack may not fit into existing federal criminal statutes, depending on what evidence is unearthed.

Now this is very interesting, thank you for bringing it to my attention.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 12, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Don't call us cunts for calling out terrorist for what he is


Wait.. you admit you're far-left? V:


----------



## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> But how far do we have to tolerate it within our own sphere? Aren't we free to kick them out? We're not talking government action here. We're talking FA kicking them out.


On a personal level, you don't have to tolerate it, and you are free to distance yourself from such people. You have no power over FA though, why should your outrage over a particular belief structure dictate how other entities approach them?


----------



## LogicNuke (May 12, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Wait.. you admit you're far-left? V:


I admit I'm centrist American who is bemused that you're making light of serious matters in a country that protects your country.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> On a personal level, you don't have to tolerate it, and you are free to distance yourself from such people. You have no power over FA though, why should your outrage over a particular belief structure dictate how other entities approach them?


I still don’t understand why you would accept such disgusting ideologies as “just free speech” like whose side are you really on here?


----------



## LogicNuke (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> On a personal level, you don't have to tolerate it, and you are free to distance yourself from such people. You have no power over FA though, why should your outrage over a particular belief structure dictate how other entities approach them?


Fur Affinity is a business, not a fandom site. If the majority of users have problems with groups like Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, then Fur Affinity has an obligation to its users to address those concerns, especially when groups are recruiting minors on the main sites and harassing users. This isn't just a free speech issue, it is a matter of maintaning a quality experience for users. If Fur Affinity and IMVU choose to ignore their user base, that is their perogative, but they will lose users to their competitors. That's capitalism.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 12, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I admit I'm centrist American who is bemused that you're making light of serious matters in a country that protects your country.


A serious matter caused by forced multiculturalism.


----------



## Izzy4895 (May 12, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Fur Affinity is a business, not a fandom site. If the majority of users have problems with groups like Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, then Fur Affinity has an obligation to its users to address those concerns, especially when groups are recruiting minors on the main sites and harassing users. This isn't just a free speech issue, it is a matter of maintaning a quality experience for users. If Fur Affinity and IMVU choose to ignore their user base, that is their perogative, but they will lose users to their competitors. That's capitalism.



Truthfully, it all comes down to the _consistent_ enforcement of Section 2.7 of the site rules:



> *2.7 Do not identify with or promote hate groups and their ideologies*
> 
> A hate group is one that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a designated sector of society (e.g. Nazism, KKK, ISIS). Symbols specifically associated with these groups will not be permitted in user avatars, non-fictional content, or content intended solely to disrupt the community.
> 
> Users who identify with or promote hate groups and their ideologies may be permanently banned from Fur Affinity without warning.



The Alt-Right fits the bill regarding hate groups.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 12, 2018)

At the end of the day, Nazi shit is already banned under the ToS because it constitutes a hate group. Wether the mods enforce the ToS or not is up to them. 

Freedom of speech does not include speech intended to cause physical harm (screaming fire in a crowded theater), liable/slander, or inciting others to perform unjustified acts of violence snd destruction. Furthermore, freedom of speech is not freedom from the social consequences of said speech. 

White supremists want one thing, and advocate and incite for its execution. You have the more subtle shit, like trying to beat up a black person in a parking garage. Then you have shit like lynchings. Finally you have atomwaffen, which is worth a google. 

We should not try to whitewash history of Fascism and White Supremacy, but we shouldn't honor it either, or treat it as socially respectable. 

A terrorist is one who commits a violent crime to further a political agenda through terror and intimidation. The Charlottesville killer was a radical white supremist with a history of violent behavior, who drove into a crowd of his political opponents that where a distance in front of him. This is not the first, or last vehicular terrorist attack in recent history. I don't like the sketchy anti-terrorism laws, but let us call a spade a spade. 

I don't agree with the idea that hitting a Nazi should be a be-all, end-all solution. You should always try to debate a wrench some sanity from the muck. However, there will always be those too entrenched in their ideals to be corrected by the most direct physical evidence. There are those who understand their own irrationalities, and commit anyways. Such cursed souls should never be allowed to come to power, fight them if I must. There is far too much life to lose otherwise....


----------



## LogicNuke (May 12, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> A serious matter caused by forced multiculturalism.


We choose stick up for minorities, like Chinese and Koreans, rather than marginalize them. Most of our country believes this, even the Trump supporters. And it's because we're a multicultural country that we're able to attract the best and brightest this world has offer when their own countries fail them.


----------



## Kyr (May 12, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I admit I'm centrist American who is bemused that you're making light of serious matters in a country that protects your country.


Glad to meet a fellow centrist.

I fail to see what his personal beliefs have to do with America's military alliance with...i'm assuming Japan? I'm not sure where Mara's from.


WithMyBearHands said:


> I still don’t understand why you would accept such disgusting ideologies as “just free speech” like whose side are you really on here?


Just free speech? No, not just. The privilege of being able to espouse your beliefs, no matter what they may be, is something that's critically important to hold on to. What people like you are espousing, noble as the underlying goal may be, amounts to little more than encouraging the state to gag people based on simple mob outrage. People should be free to think, free to disagree and free to debate such things as the fundamental structure of human society. No matter how abhorrent their conclusions might be. If you don't discuss, you can't debunk and you can't reason. Under no circumstance should the people you don't like be oppressed by the state for what they believe.

As for whose side i'm on. Humanity's, in the end. What principles would you rather live under? There is so much unnecessary division in the world. We're a flawed species so there will be, it's how fascism was allowed to come into existence in the first place. I understand that you don't want there to be division based on things that are ultimately irrelevant when compared to the fact that we're all just apes that hit the evolutionary jackpot, but i believe that "solutions" espoused by people like the OP, while well intentioned, will only serve to create further division for society. It's a step back masquerading as a well intentioned step forward.


LogicNuke said:


> Fur Affinity is a business, not a fandom site. If the majority of users have problems with groups like Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, then Fur Affinity has an obligation to its users to address those concerns, especially when groups are recruiting minors on the main sites and harassing users. This isn't just a free speech issue, it is a matter of maintaning a quality experience for users. If Fur Affinity and IMVU choose to ignore their user base, that is their perogative, but they will lose users to their competitors. That's capitalism.


Furaffinity has no obligations to you or anyone else. They offer a service, that service is as an anthropomorphic art gallery. If you dislike it for whatever reason, there are competitors out there. I prefer Weasyl myself, the UI seems a lot sleeker.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 12, 2018)

Kyr said:


> On a personal level, you don't have to tolerate it, and you are free to distance yourself from such people. You have no power over FA though, why should your outrage over a particular belief structure dictate how other entities approach them?



Because FA is a private platform, and I'm free to encourage them to ban such members and artwork. 



Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> A serious matter caused by forced multiculturalism.



"forced multiculturalism" meaning, we have to force people to get along, otherwise some people are dicks and shoot each other. I'm always amazed that some people don't seem to understand why it's important to not be a dick.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Because FA is a private platform, and I'm free to encourage them to ban such members and artwork.
> 
> 
> 
> "forced multiculturalism" meaning, we have to force people to get along, otherwise some people are dicks and shoot each other. I'm always amazed that some people don't seem to understand why it's important to not be a dick.


That you are.

And what if forcing people to get along only fosters resentment on both sides?


----------



## Simo (May 13, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> Truthfully, it all comes down to the _consistent_ enforcement of Section 2.7 of the site rules:
> 
> 
> 
> The Alt-Right fits the bill regarding hate groups.



This reminds me: I very much support the SPLC. I don't have much money to give to causes, but I support their efforts to combat hate through reporting, monitoring, education, and via legal action. If I ever go to Alabama, I hope to visit their headquarters, and thank them for all the good work they have done.

Also, this soft-peddling of neo-nazis being somehow so 'different' from the ideology that inspires them sickens me. My grandparents and great uncles didn't fight the Nazis in WWII so that we would end up living in a society in which minorities would have to live with threats of fear and violence: As Sicilians, as Catholics, as Jews, they endured threats and prejudices in the 1920s and later that still make my hair curl when I recall the stories, and they didn't give of themselves to live in a country in which their sacrifices would be so willingly dishonored by the tolerance of xenophobic ideals that permeate the alt right, neo-Nazi and other movements of today.

That the idea of FA tolerating these neo-nazi groups is even up for debate truly astounds me.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

Simo said:


> This reminds me: I very much support the SPLC. I don't have much money to give to causes, but I support their efforts to combat hate through reporting, monitoring, education, and via legal action. If I ever go to Alabama, I hope to visit their headquarters, and thank them for all the good work they have done.
> 
> Also, this soft-peddling of neo-nazis being somehow so 'different' from the ideology that inspires them sickens me. My grandparents and great uncles didn't fight the Nazis in WWII so that we would end up living in a society in which minorities would have to live with threats of fear and violence: As Sicilians, as Catholics, as Jews, they endured threats and prejudices in the 1920s and later that still make my hair curl when I recall the stories, and they didn't give of themselves to live in a country in which their sacrifices would be so willingly dishonored by the tolerance of xenophobic ideals that permeate the alt right, neo-Nazi and other movements of today.
> 
> That the idea of FA tolerating these neo-nazi groups is even up for debate truly astounds me.


No, your grandparents and great uncles didn't fight the Nazis in WWII so that we would end up living in a society in which minorities would have to live with threats of fear and violence, they fought the Nazis because Nazi Germany was an invading force that was in some way threatening their country's sovereignty. What we learned of the Nazis during the conclusion and aftermath of the war shapes our modern understanding of the Nazis. Your ancestors would have seen them in a different light, and would've fought them for whatever reasons they had when the Nazis/the concept of fascism was a serious threat to western society.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 13, 2018)

Simo said:


> My grandparents and great uncles didn't fight the Nazis in WWII so that we would end up living in a society in which minorities would have to live with threats of fear and violence


:V


This just proves my point


----------



## Simo (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> No, your grandparents and great uncles didn't fight the Nazis in WWII so that we would end up living in a society in which minorities would have to live with threats of fear and violence, they fought the Nazis because Nazi Germany was an invading force that was in some way threatening their country's sovereignty. What we learned of the Nazis during the conclusion and aftermath of the war shapes our modern understanding of the Nazis. Your ancestors would have seen them in a different light, and would've fought them for whatever reasons they had when the Nazis/the concept of fascism was a serious threat to western society.



Maybe yours didn't but mine did. Speak for yourself.


----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Furaffinity has no obligations to you or anyone else. They offer a service, that service is as an anthropomorphic art gallery. If you dislike it for whatever reason, there are competitors out there. I prefer Weasyl myself, the UI seems a lot sleeker.


Fur Affinity is governed by its own financial interests just like every other business, like I said. Most users don't care for the Furry Raiders and Altfurry. If people become too discontented they will leave for other platforms like Weasyl, the way users left Inkbunny when the cub/child pornography that is allowed became too much for them. If it comes down to the majority of users who don't care for Nazis and the minority made of Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, who do you think IMVU and Fur Affinity will choose? If Discord could boot Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, what makes you think IMVU won't?


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> That you are.
> 
> And what if forcing people to get along only fosters resentment on both sides?



Then you're not doing it right.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Fur Affinity is governed by its own financial interests just like every other business, like I said. Most users don't care for the Furry Raiders and Altfurry. If people become too discontented they will leave for other platforms like Weasyl, the way users left Inkbunny when the cub/child pornography that is allowed became too much for them. If it comes down to the majority of users who don't care for Nazis and the minority made of Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, who do you think IMVU and Fur Affinity will choose? If Discord could boot Altfurry and the Furry Raiders, what makes you think IMVU won't?


Absolutely nothing makes me think they couldn't or even won't, the question is should they. "Most users don't care for the Furry Raiders and Altfurry." I don't think most users even know about let alone give a shit about some fringe group that's the centerpiece of some political spat within the fandom. The personal views of the people that claim affiliation to those groups also has no bearing on their reason for using the site, namely to post images of random dog boys doing dog things. Driving them away due to something that exists outside of the purpose of the site seems pointless to me.


----------



## Izzy4895 (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I'm gonna level with you. I'm not American and the modern political disaster that is your country is little more than a source of entertainment for me, i don't follow it closely. What happened with Heather, all i ever saw was hate. It's understandable, two ideologically opposed groups clashed and that resulted in a completely unnecessary and avoidable death. Lot of space for anger to fester in that, and i honestly hate that when people look back they won't see Heather as a human being but as a political talking point. I do agree with the facts, there is absolutely no other way to live for me than to accept the truth, no matter what it may be. To that end everything i've said or will say regarding this entire dimwitted debate regarding Nazis is to find the truth. I'm unbiased and i don't make assumptions either way, and when i see someone equating a hit and run (the literal bare bones definition of what happened) with an ISIS style terrorist attack i can't help but think that's little more than a bullshit conclusion fuelled by the same anger that caused Heather's death in the first place. So i inqure, as neutrally as possible, to find out the truth of matters i deem important.



Anyone looking for a textbook example of gas-lighting can simply look at this post: it contains repeated lies, misdirection, contradiction ("accepting the truth" while continuing with the "hit and run" lie in the same breath), etc. (notice how this nonsense was repeated after it was already proven to be false to the core in the past)  The entire point of this pompous post is a vain attempt to get people familiar with the truth to doubt what actually happened; the point is to try to make people more open to Alt-Right conspiracy theories.  The facts have been reposted by LogicNuke; _it is beyond all doubt that Nazis used an ISIS-style car attack to murder Heather Heyer and injure others._  The right-wing dehumanization of its enemies is projected onto the opponents of fascism; this is classic cookie cutter material in which one can replace the "political talking point", i.e. Heather Heyer, with things like blacks, the Holocaust, etc.  An additional goal of this line of "reasoning"is to dehumanize the victims of fascist aggression while painting the victims and their allies as the aggressors. 



> And frankly it fucking infuriates me that people in your "camp" (at least on the forums it should be very clear what i mean by that) like to insinuate that i'm an Alt Right propagandist or some similar drivel because i try to approach things critically.



You see, Kyr, I am not being "politically correct" here; I am calling things _what they are.
_


Simo said:


> This reminds me: I very much support the SPLC. I don't have much money to give to causes, but I support their efforts to combat hate through reporting, monitoring, education, and via legal action. If I ever go to Alabama, I hope to visit their headquarters, and thank them for all the good work they have done.
> 
> Also, this soft-peddling of neo-nazis being somehow so 'different' from the ideology that inspires them sickens me. My grandparents and great uncles didn't fight the Nazis in WWII so that we would end up living in a society in which minorities would have to live with threats of fear and violence: As Sicilians, as Catholics, as Jews, they endured threats and prejudices in the 1920s and later that still make my hair curl when I recall the stories, and they didn't give of themselves to live in a country in which their sacrifices would be so willingly dishonored by the tolerance of xenophobic ideals that permeate the alt right, neo-Nazi and other movements of today.
> 
> That the idea of FA tolerating these neo-nazi groups is even up for debate truly astounds me.



I don't agree with everything the SPLC says, but they do an outstanding job of documenting various hate groups.


----------



## Simo (May 13, 2018)

Well, I don't care to escalate things further; this short reading by Sylvia Plath is a prescient metaphor of my emotional state, in all of this banter...Pulitzer Prize, poem, 1962?


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

Ya, I think it is time to lock thread.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Then you're not doing it right.


You're not forcing people to do something in the right way?

I don't know where to begin with that. I will say that tensions derived from competing cultures are inevitable when they're first brought into close contact. The best you can hope for is eventual societal synthesis. I believe this knowledge underpins the potential decision to force people of different cultures together. Question is, do the methods employed to foster such synthesis help the process or hinder it?


Izzy4895 said:


> Anyone looking for a textbook example of gas-lighting can simply look at this post: it contains repeated lies, misdirection, contradiction ("accepting the truth" while continuing with the "hit and run" lie in the same breath), etc. (notice how this nonsense was repeated after it was already proven to be false to the core in the past)  The entire point of this pompous post is a vain attempt to get people familiar with the truth to doubt what actually happened; the point is to try to make people more open to Alt-Right conspiracy theories.  The facts have been reposted by LogicNuke; _it is beyond all doubt that Nazis used an ISIS-style car attack to murder Heather Heyer and injure others._  The right-wing dehumanization of its enemies is projected onto the opponents of fascism; this is classic cookie cutter material in which one can replace the "political talking point", i.e. Heather Heyer, with things like blacks, the Holocaust, etc.  An additional goal of this line of "reasoning"is to dehumanize the victims of fascist aggression while painting the victims and their allies as the aggressors.
> 
> 
> 
> You see, Kyr, I am not being "politically correct" here; I am calling things _what they are._


When did i mention political correctness? Your biased assumption is showing 

You're assuming i'm being deliberately disingenuous as opposed to skeptical of absolutely everything (i mean, how else is one supposed to operate in a culture of fake news). Pompous and vain? Well i'm not sure how but if that's somehow a valid critique then so be it. I'm not trying to convince anyone else of anything. Alt Right conspiracy theories? Well i'm not aware of any, apart from the shallow act of dismissal that is labelling someone a crypto fascist. The facts posted were as a response to what i said, and i'm grateful for them. I don't care about your country, and i don't care about a singular (albeit prominent) focal point within the wider issue of America's political climate. I was withholding judgement until there was an official governmental statement on the matter, which Logic was generous enough to provide. You're free to ramble about right-wing dehumanization and painting aggressors as victims but i don't support or even give a fuck about the alt right. From what i've seen of them their beliefs regarding ethnostates and such are ridiculous. It's blind scapegoating and painting innocent people as enemies to further their own political goals, kinda like what you're trying to do with me atm. 

Props for not simply blocking me though, glad you have a spine.


----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Absolutely nothing makes me think they couldn't or even won't, the question is should they. "Most users don't care for the Furry Raiders and Altfurry." I don't think most users even know about let alone give a shit about some fringe group that's the centerpiece of some political spat within the fandom. The personal views of the people that claim affiliation to those groups also has no bearing on their reason for using the site, namely to post images of random dog boys doing dog things. Driving them away due to something that exists outside of the purpose of the site seems pointless to me.


A lot of users hold their tongue about Altfurry, the Furry Raiders, and other Nazifur groups, you shouldn't mistake for apathy or support. I've noticed that the furry fandom doesn't like to rock the boat about certain issues in the name of enjoyment, but people are getting fed up with Nazifur antics, especially when they apparently get conventions shut down. Tolerance isn't the same as acceptance and many users are pissed with the bad publicity Nazifurs bring to the site and the harassment they engage in. If users start leaving in droves, then that affects IMVU's bottom line. If it affects their bottom line as a lean start-up, they'll do what Discord did and crack down.

And Izzy's right Kyr. You got your evidence, so what are you standing on?


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> A lot of users hold their tongue about Altfurry, the Furry Raiders, and other Nazifur groups, you shouldn't mistake for apathy or support. I've noticed that the furry fandom doesn't like to rock the boat about certain issues in the name of enjoyment, but people are getting fed up with Nazifur antics, especially when they apparently get conventions shut down. Tolerance isn't the same as acceptance and many users are pissed with the bad publicity Nazifurs bring to the site and the harassment they engage in. If users start leaving in droves, then that affects IMVU's bottom line. If it affects their bottom line as a lean start-up, they'll do what Discord did and crack down.
> 
> And Izzy's right Kyr. You got your evidence, so what are you standing on?


Please provide proof that a lot of people hold their tongue about these groups, please provide proof that they've gotten conventions shut down, and please provide proof that Nazifurs bring bad publicity to the site and engage in harassment. Never did i state that tolerance was the same as acceptance, and what you're talking about isn't even tolerance. Yesyes, intolerance of the intolerant in order to retain a tolerant society. I'm aware of the paradox, and the irony.

And what do you think i'm standing on? That seems like a far more interesting question.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> You're not forcing people to do something in the right way?
> 
> I don't know where to begin with that. I will say that tensions derived from competing cultures are inevitable when they're first brought into close contact. The best you can hope for is eventual societal synthesis. I believe this knowledge underpins the potential decision to force people of different cultures together. Question is, do the methods employed to foster such synthesis help the process or hinder it?



Buried in this is the notion that when different cultures come together, they won't be able to get along. I don't think that's true at all, unless one culture is based on intolerance and hate (nazis) and one is based on tolerance and acceptance (every other sane person).


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Please provide proof that a lot of people hold their tongue about these groups, please provide proof that they've gotten conventions shut down, and please provide proof that Nazifurs bring bad publicity to the site and engage in harassment. Never did i state that tolerance was the same as acceptance, and what you're talking about isn't even tolerance. Yesyes, intolerance of the intolerant in order to retain a tolerant society. I'm aware of the paradox, and the irony.
> 
> And what do you think i'm standing on? That seems like a far more interesting question.


RIP Rocky Mountain Fur Con


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Buried in this is the notion that when different cultures come together, they won't be able to get along. I don't think that's true at all, unless one culture is based on intolerance and hate (nazis) and one is based on tolerance and acceptance (every other sane person).


Not just Nazis. Some cultures are compatible, others will have little to no respect of each other based on the competing culture's values. This is why i brought up synthesis. Cultures will, out of necessity, find a middle ground or destroy each other. This is unavoidable. So the question remains, is forcing different cultures to exist side by side, while retaining their strict differences, beneficial or detrimental to the idea of cultural synthesis?


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> RIP Rocky Mountain Fur Con


I'm so glad you mentioned the one that can be proved that the Furry Raiders had nothing to do with (iirc Alt Furry sprang up as a response to RMFC). There is bullshit related to the idea of people being nazis there, and that that's what sparked the con's downfall. But in reality it was Deo being obnoxious on Twitter, some random responding to that with something she took as a shooting threat, and the resulting incompetence of the con's organizers in regards to their handling of the Deo/random person drama that led to the con being shut down.


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## BahgDaddy (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Not just Nazis. Some cultures are compatible, others will have little to no respect of each other based on the competing culture's values. This is why i brought up synthesis. Cultures will, out of necessity, find a middle ground or destroy each other. This is unavoidable. So the question remains, is forcing different cultures to exist side by side, while retaining their strict differences, beneficial or detrimental to the idea of cultural synthesis?



It is always beneficial. Hopefully they get along on their own. But, it has taken various anti-racism laws in the US to try and get white males to back down and help get blacks to the same level. And still true equality hasn't been found. But it sure wasn't going to get anywhere without those laws, either! This stance is nothing more but elegant subterfuge to try and convince people that it's wrong to expect tolerance.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Not just Nazis. Some cultures are compatible, others will have little to no respect of each other based on the competing culture's values. This is why i brought up synthesis. Cultures will, out of necessity, find a middle ground or destroy each other. This is unavoidable. So the question remains, is forcing different cultures to exist side by side, while retaining their strict differences, beneficial or detrimental to the idea of cultural synthesis?


We are really off topic and I kind of just want thread locked by now. Multiculturalism is the idea of not forcing those of cultures not to adopt values of the dominant culture. It is the idea that you cannot force your culture on another group that exists within your society. Nobody is forcing you to adopt another's culture, but you are legally forbidden from forcing your own culture upon another group, outside of where culture might conflict with the current laws. There is also the problem of the very hardlined view of different culture groups, that lacks a nuanced understanding of culture and subculture. 

www.newsweek.com: Neo-Nazi furries are Trump’s latest and most puzzling alt-right supporters A whole lot more complicated than you are trying to make it out to be.


----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Please provide proof that a lot of people hold their tongue about these groups, please provide proof that they've gotten conventions shut down, and please provide proof that Nazifurs bring bad publicity to the site and engage in harassment. Never did i state that tolerance was the same as acceptance, and what you're talking about isn't even tolerance. Yesyes, intolerance of the intolerant in order to retain a tolerant society. I'm aware of the paradox.
> 
> And what do you think i'm standing on? That seems like a far more interesting question.


Sealioning now, are we? 

Let's play.

Here's evidence of Casey Hoerth/Len Gilbert, an Altfurry leader, urging his members to attack Califur with swatting calls, which is a felony:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969436563879862272
Here is some totally great publicity that definitely puts furries in the best possible light:

dogpatch.press: Ever hear that Altfurries are just trolls? A real Nazi leader is taking them seriously.

www.rollingstone.com: Does the Furry Community Have a Nazi Problem?

www.newstatesman.com: The Furred Reich: The truth about Nazi furries and the alt-right

www.vice.com: Even Furries Are Fighting Fascists

As for evidence, a lot of people hold their tongues about Nazifurs, let's use the forum as a microcosm. How many are leaping to your defense right now? Even your friends who were supporting you in the beginning are not posting now because they probably don't want to be associated with ridiculous views.


----------



## Rant (May 13, 2018)

*Any group that promotes hate, intolerance, misinformation and violence has no FUCKING place in society.*​


----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

Rant said:


> *Any group that promotes hate, intolerance, misinformation and violence has no FUCKING place in society.*​


Kyr, your ignorance has roused an ill man from his sickbed to chastise you. Take what pride you have left and go.

Thank you, Rant.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

The insults are just coming from all sides now, and people are getting pissed and no longer able to discuss things.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Kyr, your ignorance has roused an ill man from his sickbed to chastise you. Take what pride you have left and go.
> 
> Thank you, Rant.


Unfortunately i have to get some sleep, but i'm fully aware of everything you've brought up and will address it as necessary when i have the energy.

Also, please respond to the question i posed to you. I know cheap insults are fun but i'd rather figure out what you think i'm standing on.

Mildly annoyed posts about the concept of cultural imperialism, Junius, Dionysus, the confederate flag fursuit dude and facts related to the babyfur calls (which yes folks, Len did encourage) will be written up in the morning.

Oh, and i couldn't agree with Rant more.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

My advice for everyone in the chat, is never attribute to malicious intent what can be easily attributed to incompetence or ignorance of information. 
Also, please make this happen to this thread: 



Spoiler: It's the only way to be sure.


----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Unfortunately i have to get some sleep, but i'm fully aware of everything you've brought up and will address it as necessary when i have the energy.
> 
> Also, please respond to the question i posed to you. I know cheap insults are fun but i'd rather figure out what you think i'm standing on.
> 
> ...


Bail out!


----------



## aloveablebunny (May 13, 2018)

_*nopes the fuck out of this thread and prays to the internet Gods that a moderator appears soon with a firehose to take care of this raging dumpster fire*_


----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

aloveablebunny said:


> _*nopes the fuck out of this thread and prays to the internet Gods that a moderator appears soon with a firehose to take care of this raging dumpster fire*_


To be fair, I did come back to the original topic and after Kyr has his nappy time he'll have unsatisfactory answers.


----------



## Simo (May 13, 2018)

It could be lonely.


----------



## Simo (May 13, 2018)

Here:

"I was born right here, November forty three
Dad was a captain in the army
Fighting the Germans in Sicily
My poor little momma
Didn't know a soul in L.A.
So we went down to the Union Station
Made our getaway
Got on the Dixie Flyer bound for New Orleans
Across the state of Texas to the land of dreams
On the Dixie Flyer bound for New Orleans
Back to her friends and her family in the land of dreams
Her own mother came to meet us at the station
Her dress as black as a crow in a coal mine
She cried when her little girl got off the train
Her brothers and her sisters came down from Jackson, Mississippi
In a great green Hudson driven by a Gentile they knew
Drinkin' rye whiskey from a flask in the back seat
Tryin' to do like the Gentiles do
Christ, they wanted to be Gentiles, too
Who wouldn't down there, wouldn't you
An American Christian, God damn
On the Dixie Flyer bound for New Orleans
Back to her friends and her family in the land of dreams
On the Dixie Flyer bound for New Orleans
Across the state of Texas to the land of dreams
Across the state of Texas to the land of dreams..."

-Randy Newman


----------



## Dragonien (May 13, 2018)

Ok its time for another big long post because I woke up to a shitstorm of the most generic bullet points of the awful aspects of our political atmosphere. So I’m going to address them then I’m going to address the real topic of this thread which you all have steamrolled right over the 1-2 times someone tried to bring it up.



First off



There is no Alt-Left



That is a thing that does not exist



It is a magical term created by Donald Trump and his Alt-Right followers. The alt right is a loosely collective group of white supremacists, neo-confederates, neo-nazis, neo-facists and other fringe hate groups that stand for beliefs of isolationist, protectionist and often anti-Semitic and white supremacist ideals. There is no comparable groups on the left to the alt right. The closest you can get is MAYBE Antifa which, while many people agree with their purpose (Literally fighting against facism) they sometimes use methods that are a bit too extreme. But that is a single, TINY subsect of the much larger antifa movement. And there is a huge difference between Anifa and, say Neo-nazis. While both may enact violence, Antifa fundamentally stands for something GOOD in its core beliefs, the prevention of facism which both sides seem to agree is a good thing (Even though the Right often time either confuses or purposefully mis-labels what things are and are not facist). Sometimes they go to an extreme they shouldn’t trying to prevent Facism, but their core belief is a positive one. Neo-nazis on the other hand are built on a core principle of exterminating those they see lesser than them. They have a fundamentally negative ideology they are built on. So, see there is a GIGANTIC ENORMOUS difference between the two sides.



The Alt-Left is a term created to give false equivalency to the Alt Right because the Alt Right stands for the worst most disgusting dregs of the Right, conservative ideology. That is NOT to say that all right leaning, republicans, or conservatives are Alt Right. Or even that they should be compared. The Alt Right is the Illogical extreme of some conservative views. But again, there is no legitimate group that stands for the similar illogical extreme of progressive ideas. What is the logical extreme of major progressive ideas? That gays should be treated as everyone else. You kinda can’t get extreme with that cause it’s a yes/no. “Either homosexuals are equal or they aren’t” you can’t be like “GAYS ARE SUPER EXTRA EQUAL”. And I know some politicians like to say dumb shit like “They shouldn’t get extra rights” When talking about their right to marriage but that’s NOT AN EXTRA RIGHT THAT’S LITERALLY JUST GIVING THEM THE SAME RIGHT EVERYONE ELSE HAS. The only groups the ‘left’ try to oppress are facists and sometimes conservatives. But they don’t try to oppress conservatives any more than conservatives do progressives. Arguably the conservatives do it way more with things like gerrymandering because the country as a whole leans progressive but the conservatives draw district maps to even that out or even give them an advantage. 



It is a fabrication of the “Boths Sides Do It” bullshit that is toxically infecting American politics right now and is just an outright blatant lie.





The next thing is the free speech thing. Again, Free speech has limits. It is not a magic spell that lets you say whatever you want. Do I think free speech should protect people’s ideologies? Yes. BUT THERE ARE LIMITS. VERY REASONABLE LIMITS THAT DO NOT LEAD TO A SLIPPERY SLOPE. If there was an ideology that people were actively trying to push that encouraged its followers to murder people and eat their flesh, it would be incredibly reasonable to shut that down and it would be a reasonable exemption of free speech, right? Because that group is literally advocating for the violence against another group. That’s why its not ok to yell Fire in a theater. Because you are advocating for a situation which can and probably will cause harm to a group of people. Well guess what? Nazis and White Supremacists in their core belief are advocating for violence against another group of people. I cannot believe I have to keep repeating this but we FOUGHT THE BIGGEST WAR IN HUMAN HISTORY AGAINST NAZI IDEOLOGY BECAUSE THEY WERE LITERALLY ROUNDING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE UP INTO CAMPS TO EXECUTE THEM. THAT IS WHAT NAZI’S STAND FOR. IT IS TOTALLY REASONABLE TO REMOVE THEIR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH BECAUSE THE SPEECH THEY WANT TO USE FREELY IS SPEECH THAT COMES FROM AN IDEOLOGY THAT ADVOCATES MASS MURDER. This is not fucking rocket science.



But now let’s get to the meat and potatoes of what this topic is SUPPOSED to be about. Because this is very important and people are missing this.





2.7

*Do not identify with or promote hate groups and their ideologies*
A hate group is one that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a designated sector of society (e.g. Nazism, KKK, ISIS). Symbols specifically associated with these groups will not be permitted in user avatars, non-fictional content, or content intended solely to disrupt the community.

*Users who identify with or promote hate groups and their ideologies may be permanently banned from Fur Affinity without warning.*





This is section 2.7 of Furaffinity’s code of conduct.



It specifically says “DO NOT IDENTIFY WITH OR PROMOTE HATE GROUPS AND THEIR IDEOLOGIES”



This is not a government issue. This is a private business issue. So the government does not get a say. Because it is specifically regarding hate groups there is no way shape or form any argument of discrimination can be made.



Drawing pictures saying “Man Nazi uniforms are sexy” is literally the definition of promotion. Having a group whose symbol for identification is a clear parody homage to Nazi swastika armbands is CLEARLY IDENTIFYING WITH IT. Because no one in their right god damn mind would ever ‘ironically’ try to adopt Nazi iconography.



This is not a matter of free speech this is a matter of enforcement of this web site’s OWN CODE OF CONDUCT.



If they want to allow nazi ideology and iconography I can’t stop them because it’s their web site. But if they’re going to do that they at least need to change this clause in their code of conduct. Because until they do, the moderators and admins have a responsibility to uphold their OWN RULES for the community. If they want to change the rule and let Nazis in, fine. That’s their choice. But until then we are absolutely 100% justified in calling out their selective enforcement and have every right to call bullshit on it because they refuse to enact their own rules.



Really it’s a matter of transparency. If they want to allow Nazi Iconography that’s fine. But then we as a community deserve to clearly know that so we can make an informed decision as to whether or not this is a website we want to continue patronizing. That’s why its clear in Inkbunny’s TOS that shit like cub porn is ok. So that people can make an informed decision as to whether or not to use them. They didn’t have a clause in their TOS that was against it but just didn’t choose to enforce it. Selective enforcement disingenuous to us as their user base. Because it means they know they’re doing something wrong but they’re too ashamed to stand up and admit it so they slink around under the rules instead.



So this whole argument isn’t even about Free speech or Nazis and shit like that. It’s about FA’s own god damn rules and how they either need to be changed or enforced. Pick one please.


----------



## Scales42 (May 13, 2018)

I didnt want to get involved in this dumpster fire, because I think it serves no purpose other than to destabilize the forum, and those regular witch hunts are beginning to get boring..
You are not achieving anything here. The main site probably doesnt care, the other debaters will most likely not abandon their own point of view either.

Also: Pointing your finger at one group and ignoring the others is ignorant, the same goes for using the term "we". Speaking for yourself is more appropriate in most debates. 
Keep in my mind that I do not wish to call any specific person out, this sort of behavior is common in all of these threads.

This is all that I will contribute to this witch hunting season... See you next time around when its about antifa or SJWs or muslims or vegans PETA or whatever the fuck is "In" these days.

Cheers


----------



## Yakamaru (May 13, 2018)

Scales42 said:


> I didnt want to get involved in this dumpster fire, because I think it serves no purpose other than to destabilize the forum, and those regular witch hunts are beginning to get boring..
> You are not achieving anything here. The main site probably doesnt care, the other debaters will most likely not abandon their own point of view either.
> 
> Also: Pointing your finger at one group and ignoring the others is ignorant, the same goes for using the term "we". Speaking for yourself is more appropriate in most debates.
> ...


Hence why it's so fun to sit in the middle. When you piss off both sides to some degree(both sides gets pissed off to some degree, though one gets pissed more depending on the subject), you've done a good job. We dun need this tribalism/divide crap.

Also: ANTIFA = Domestic terrorist group.


----------



## Rant (May 13, 2018)

*To everyone calling to lock this thread, you are only making the issue worse by refusing to discuss and acknowledge it by silencing others. You simply can not make a problem go away by ignoing it. *​


----------



## striker479 (May 13, 2018)

As someone that has to deal with the worst the community has I have to deal with a lot of the Neo-Nazi BS everyday. I dont need to see this same stuff online in this group. It's the same chorus both sing and the same song and dance act. 

As a hobby historian in military history during ww1 and ww2, yes there were some well meaning germans back in the day that was fighting for their country and protecting their family. Germany was recovering from the failure of WW1 and they were taken advantage of by a very charismatic leader. But when the war crimes showed of continent wide genocide taking the lives of millions throughout Europe its inexcusable.

Our country fought against the Nazis to stop them and continued to fight them afterwards here on the homefront to keep them down so that hate doesnt revive itself ever again. Germany has been keeping the small nazi group in check so that they dont see them rise again. We have to do the same as  countless white supremacists gangs starting up and gaining unneeded attention, which with my job I'm having to put up with, but they're using free speech as their protection. 

Again I DO NOT want to deal with the same BS here in this community while seeing and dealing with it IRL in the community I'm protecting.


----------



## Infrarednexus (May 13, 2018)

I have mixed feelings on this topic. On one hand I absolutely despise hate groups like Nazis, KKK, and Isis. On the other hand I feel this will lead to a domino effect of the first amendment in America where we will start labeling more and more things as hate groups that are not hate groups and shutting them down. Believe me, I hate listening to Nazis spewing their  hateful filth at people, but we have to understand that if we start silencing one group, who's to say this won't go further and further into cencership chaos. Who decides what should be allowed and what shouldn't?

Why not call Nazis out on their BS and debate them with facts, reason, and logic. Intellectually humiliate them in front of everyone so no one takes them seriously anymore. It seems like suppressing them has only made uninformed people more empathetic for them. Let's fight_ their_ freedom of speech with _our_ freedom of speech. Who knows, maybe we can convince many of them to leave their hateful ways and join our modern society as peaceful and friendly citizens. It's been done before.


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## Dragonien (May 13, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I have mixed feelings on this topic. On one hand I absolutely despise hate groups like Nazis, KKK, and Isis. On the other hand I feel this will lead to a domino effect of the first amendment in America where we will start labeling more and more things as hate groups that are not hate groups and shutting them down. Believe me, I hate listening to Nazis spewing their  hateful filth at people, but we have to understand that if we start silencing one group, who's to say this won't go further and further into cencership chaos. Who decides what should be allowed and what shouldn't?
> 
> Why not call Nazis out on their BS and debate them with facts, reason, and logic. Intellectually humiliate them in front of everyone so no one takes them seriously anymore. It seems like suppressing them has only made uninformed people more empathetic for them. Let's fight_ their_ freedom of speech with _our_ freedom of speech. Who knows, maybe we can convince many of them to leave their hateful ways and join our modern society as peaceful and friendly citizens. It's been done before.


because you can literally just look at this thread and see that debating them with facts reason and logic doesnt work

and once again IT IS NOT A SLIPPERY SLOPE TO BAN NAZIS


----------



## Yakamaru (May 13, 2018)

"Ex Neo-nazi".
www.cbs46.com: Ex Neo-Nazi speaks out about leaving extremist groups, stopping hate
"Former Neo-Nazi".
www.huffingtonpost.ca: Talk To Your Kids About Charlottesville, Ex Neo-Nazi Urges Parents
"Former Neo-Nazi".
www.huffingtonpost.com: Hate and the Sandbox: A Former Neo-Nazi Comes to Campus | HuffPost

Good lord. It's as if some people used to belong to a hateful ideology. Not enough examples of people being convinced out of this garbage ideology? I have more. Lots more. Banning (A dead horse at this point, and have been for years) ain't gonna do jack shit. It will only force it underground and you have done *everyone* a huge disservice.

You talk with them. You debate them. You convince them out of their ideology. You don't convince *anyone* by acting like an Authoritarian and hateful asshole who goes around trying to ban everything they don't like. You are dropping to their level of spitefulness and hatred.

And that is all I will say on the matter. Not interested in being dragged down this inevitable shitstorm of a thread. Have a nice day, all of you.


----------



## Infrarednexus (May 13, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> because you can literally just look at this thread and see that debating them with facts reason and logic doesnt work
> 
> and once again IT IS NOT A SLIPPERY SLOPE TO BAN NAZIS


But the Nazis used the same fascists tactics by banning speech they didn't approve of. They imprisoned people who broke their speech laws. We can't follow in their footsteps with the same authoritarian strategies. We need to be better than them in every way. Believe me it would be wonderful if they all would shut up and start getting along with others, but they seem to use censorship against them as an empathy strategy method to gain new followers who don't understand just how bad they really are.

I'm in no way expressing empathy for them by saying this. I'm just proposing alternative strategies to combat them. That's all.


----------



## AppleButt (May 13, 2018)

Scales42 said:


> I didnt want to get involved in this dumpster fire, because I think it serves no purpose other than to destabilize the forum, and those regular witch hunts are beginning to get boring..
> You are not achieving anything here. The main site probably doesnt care, the other debaters will most likely not abandon their own point of view either.
> 
> Also: Pointing your finger at one group and ignoring the others is ignorant, the same goes for using the term "we". Speaking for yourself is more appropriate in most debates.
> ...




While everyone is fighting, all of our jobs will get automated, and the only thing that’d change is we’d now be fighting each other while broke.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 13, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> But the Nazis used the same fascists tactics by banning speech they didn't approve of. They imprisoned people who broke their speech laws. We can't follow in their footsteps with the same authoritarian strategies. We need to be better than them in every way. Believe me it would be wonderful if they all would shut up and start getting along with others, but they seem to use censorship against them as an empathy strategy method to gain new followers who don't understand just how bad they really are.
> 
> I'm in no way expressing empathy for them by saying this. I'm just proposing alternative strategies to combat them. That's all.



We're only talking about the FA site. Your post is irrelevant because it tries to make it look like banning Nazis from FA would be a huge breach of their free speech. It wouldn't. It is not. FA has the right to ban Nazis and we have the right to request it. Stop moving the goalposts.


----------



## DeeTheDragon (May 13, 2018)

A lot has been said, so I'll try and summarize my thoughts and hopefully not repeat anybody.

1.  This is a very important matter to discuss; especially since it concerns the well being of the community.  Please refrain from making off-topic posts and shit-posts as that will just end up in the thread getting locked.

2.  First amendment rights and "free speech" applies to the government, not Fur Affinity.  FA is a privately run site and they have the right to restrict access as they please.

3.  Nazis, Neo-Nazis, and other similar hate groups are bad, as many people have previously stated.  I support preventing them from having a platform to profess their ideals/further their agenda.  However, I don't quite support ostracizing them completely; I have seen numerous cases of ex-hate-group members that now despise their participation in said groups and work to help others who are in their shoes.  I feel that completely cutting off connection to these groups may limit our ability to help those sort of people.  You could write an entire philosophical book on this subject alone, so my viewpoint here is likely not the best.

4.  The "free speech" argument is stupid.  I forget where I first heard this, but it's like conceding that the best argument you have to support your point is that it is not inherently illegal to express your point.

tl;dr:
Nazis are bad, but I would prefer if there were a way to get them to peacefully integrate into society.




BahgDaddy said:


> We're only talking about the FA site.


Thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't quite sure what site we were talking about here.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 13, 2018)

Scales42 said:


> I didnt want to get involved in this dumpster fire, because I think it serves no purpose other than to destabilize the forum, and those regular witch hunts are beginning to get boring..
> You are not achieving anything here. The main site probably doesnt care, the other debaters will most likely not abandon their own point of view either.
> 
> Also: Pointing your finger at one group and ignoring the others is ignorant, the same goes for using the term "we". Speaking for yourself is more appropriate in most debates.
> ...



I'm sorry, did you just post a meme where someone with a cigarette in their mouth is calling other people "stupid?" I'm just asking, because I want to check and make sure I'm actually seeing straight before I point out the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION  THERE.


----------



## Stratelier (May 13, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> At the end of the day, Nazi shit is already banned under the ToS because it constitutes a hate group. Wether the mods enforce the ToS or not is up to them.


Just wanted to point out that technically, fictional content that includes such symbols/logos in an appropriate context for that content (e.g. MAUS or Wolfenstein fanart anyone?) is not banned by section 2.7 .  The rule bans use of those symbols in areas where the context cannot be conveyed (avatars, thumbnails) as well as the obvious use of them _for_ promoting the group's underlying idiology. (er, ideology.  I'm not correcting the typo.)


----------



## Dragonien (May 13, 2018)

Stratelier said:


> Just wanted to point out that technically, fictional content that includes such symbols/logos in an appropriate context for that content (e.g. MAUS or Wolfenstein fanart anyone?) is not banned by section 2.7 .  The rule bans use of those symbols in areas where the context cannot be conveyed (avatars, thumbnails) as well as the obvious use of them _for_ promoting the group's underlying idiology. (er, ideology.  I'm not correcting the typo.)



No one is talking about wolfenstein fanart. Literally no one. we're talking about people parading characters around in literal nazi soldier outfits with swastika armbands, or trying to promote entire subgroups in the community who's 'icon' is a blatant homage to the swastika armband nazi soldiers wore. because, for the one millionth time, Any depiction of a literal hate group that is not intrinsically negative is promoting that ideology by normalizing it. Nazi's are wrong. Period. so anything that doesnt explicitly portray "Nazi's are wrong" is, in effect, promoting it as something that might not inherently be wrong. so when someone draws a picture of their character just hanging out in a nazi uniform or anything even more extreme like sexualizing it, that is promoting that Nazi iconography in a socially acceptable, public light which is in itself unacceptable. 

the literal wording of the code of conduct is "*Do not identify with or promote hate groups and their ideologies". *There's no nuance there about "Well only if theres a certain context rich zone" becaues every single one of the examples ive seen of admins refusing to enforce this has nothing to do with that. Attached is a perfect example of it. It doesn't matter if its fictional, it doesn't matter if its in or out of some specific context-rich environment like avatars. It literally just says "Don't identify with or promote it" so if you're not posting a picture of a nazi who is getting punched in the face by captain america or something to similar effect clearly say "Nazi's are bad" then you are either identifying or promoting it by deeming it acceptable for open consumption and appreciation. 

And again. FA is a private site. if they WANT nazis on their site that is their prerogative. but then they need to change their Code of Conduct to reflect that. cause right now their code of conduct says "No nazis" but they are not enforcing it at all and that is arguably a lot worse than just openly accepting nazis because it opens up whole other hosts of questions as to where the administration will arbitrarily decide to ignore their own set rules and guidelines. 
*Do not identify with or promote hate groups and their ideologies *


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

The problem with this thread is the cyclical arguments. The points worth making have been made, and everyone is just shouting at each other now. And that isn't helping convince anyone of anything.


----------



## TrishaCat (May 13, 2018)

Having art with such symbolism doesn't imply that one actually adheres to or encourages those beliefs, and, in addition, art should never be censored, limited, or banned, regardless of content. What it sounds like you're saying is that even art containing what could be described as Nazi symbolism or uniform should be banned and removed, which imo is a threat to creativity and artistic freedom. Just because such is depicted in art does not imply an adherence to or encouragement of such destructive groups and beliefs. Unless someone is literally posting that you in real life should be a Nazi, or that you should attack and harm minorities, or is directly threatening you or someone else, or is actually speaking racist views, the art should not be banned or remove. Ban Nazis, not art. Please don't try to force FA under German laws.


Dragonien said:


> Any depiction of a literal hate group that is not intrinsically negative is promoting that ideology by normalizing it.


Not depicting something as bad is not the same as saying this is good and how people should be.
The realm of fiction is entirely different from the real world. People drawing characters wearing Nazi uniforms or something doesn't mean they're saying that such dress is encouraged or appropriate. To use an example, when you play the bad guy in a video game, you are not being encouraged in real life to start being a bad guy. Such similarly applies here. Depictions of bad things in fiction do not imply an acceptance or adherence to such in real life.

Also when you make rules, it's extremely difficult to ask moderators to differentiate contextually between one thing and another when depicting similar things. You can't ban such imagery in a specific context because different people get different things out of art. An artist could have completely pure intentions and someone could still see it as promoting such ideology.


----------



## Scales42 (May 13, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I'm sorry, did you just post a meme where someone with a cigarette in their mouth is calling other people "stupid?" I'm just asking, because I want to check and make sure I'm actually seeing straight before I point out the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION  THERE.




... its a meme...


----------



## Willow (May 13, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> Please don't try to force FA under German laws.


Germany and Austria could technically block FA servers entirely if they really wanted to since, you know, depicting Nazi symbols for non-historical reasons is actually a crime


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 13, 2018)

Scales42 said:


> ... its a meme...



So you're apologizing away the absurdity by admitting it added no real value to the conversation?


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

Once more unto the breach.


BahgDaddy said:


> It is always beneficial. Hopefully they get along on their own. But, it has taken various anti-racism laws in the US to try and get white males to back down and help get blacks to the same level. And still true equality hasn't been found. But it sure wasn't going to get anywhere without those laws, either! This stance is nothing more but elegant subterfuge to try and convince people that it's wrong to expect tolerance.


I think there's a separate debate about pretty much everything you've stated about black people in the US here, but i'm going to try and keep this as concise as possible. Elegant subterfuge to try and convince people that it's wrong to expect tolerance. Subterfuge? I hope you're not accusing me of that, i thought you would've known me better. Trying to convince people that it's wrong to expect tolerance? Well, it is. You shouldn't really expect anything from your fellow human beings. You can hope for tolerance and understanding, even push for it as a foundation of ideology, but there will always be people who simply won't tolerate your way of life for whatever reasons they might have. This feeds into the talk of forced multiculturalism, which the more i think about it is a rather vague term. I'm assuming Mara was referencing mass immigration from countries with vastly different cultural values. Where to begin on this...respect. Now while there are many on both sides that respect and value each other as human beings there are also several that don't. I've mentioned child sex trafficking rings and the Muslim immigrant that was arrested for something or other and said to the police "white women are all whores that deserve to be raped". There is a problem here, and it comes from a lack of respect for the host culture. Such instances often inform the general populous about the people from these different cultures, because under the current multicultural framework of my country the various ethnic groups that come here end up segregating themselves. There's no sense of unified community amongst these groups, although it certainly exists within sporadic pockets, and most people don't end up interacting with these other cultures in any meaningful way. It fosters...stereotypes and othering. It's not beneficial to anyone. And you see the products of earlier immigration waves acting differently, indian and caribbean immigrants have integrated in a way where, while retaining their own sense of culture and identity, they're still easily identifiable as English. Now it's entirely possible, and even likely, that they faced the same problems when they first came here, and i would hope that in time those that have found themselves here will also integrate into the wider national societal framework, but i'm not sure if the way we've tried to go about creating a multicultural society is beneficial to that end or harmful. I'm of the personal opinion that if people immigrate they should adapt to the cultural framework already in place, and keep what values they can in accordance with it. There's a startling lack of respect not just from the narrow minded fools that were born here but from the narrow minded fools that come here too, and they just feed off of each other to grow cultural resentment.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> We are really off topic and I kind of just want thread locked by now. Multiculturalism is the idea of not forcing those of cultures not to adopt values of the dominant culture. It is the idea that you cannot force your culture on another group that exists within your society. Nobody is forcing you to adopt another's culture, but you are legally forbidden from forcing your own culture upon another group, outside of where culture might conflict with the current laws. There is also the problem of the very hardlined view of different culture groups, that lacks a nuanced understanding of culture and subculture.
> 
> www.newsweek.com: Neo-Nazi furries are Trump’s latest and most puzzling alt-right supporters A whole lot more complicated than you are trying to make it out to be.



See my above response, as for that article. I'm not trying to make anything seem less complicated than it is, i'm addressing points as they're raised and they're all very simple to me. The issues raised in that article, the moronic artwork of certain people being thrown out of a helicopter. Yes it exists and yes it's stupid. Just like Deo's art of her beating the shit out of definitely not Foxler but her original character called Fox Hitler. This stupid shit happens on both sides, as referenced by the article. It's not complicated, it's just a mess driven by ideology and perceived ideology where everyone ends up acting as badly as each other.



LogicNuke said:


> Sealioning now, are we?
> 
> Let's play.
> 
> ...


The babyfur shit. Yes, that was stupid and i'd be a hypocrite if i claimed doing that was fine when banning "nazis" for being nazis wasn't. Iirc the cub artwork was part of a larger BDSM exhibition at the con and several within the group thought it would promote pedophilia. That's a separate debate but i don't believe it was right to try and get that content shelved. Interestingly they were employing the same mindset you were when you were talking about getting AltFurry affiliates banned from FA. I do remember that the guy who called the hotel claiming to be a journalist or some such was KryptoKronen, someone who used to frequent these forums and who got flack from the Alt Right groups he was in for being a furry. Since those calls were made, and possibly because of them, Kronen left or was kicked out of the group. I can't remember which exactly. I've read the Rolling Stone piece before. I'll get to the rest when i can be arsed in time.

Your last point has no merit on any level.



LogicNuke said:


> Bail out!


Nice try but it was 7am when i stopped posting here and i said i was tired in my opening post in this thread, which was at about 2am. I don't back down son, but you can post smarmy shit to demean my input and character all you like. It's quite entertaining.


----------



## TrishaCat (May 13, 2018)

Willow said:


> Germany and Austria could technically block FA servers entirely if they really wanted to since, you know, depicting Nazi symbols for non-historical reasons is actually a crime


Wouldn't they have done that already if that was something that would've been done? Though I don't know much about how laws are enforced there admittedly; do websites get banned in those places sometimes?

Either way, and forgive me if this sounds cold as I don't mean to imply that people being locked out of FA wouldn't be awful, but I'd argue that would just be another addition to the long list of things wrongfully banned and censored there should that hypothetically occur. So many things get banned in Germany as it is. It's dreadful and a repetitious occurrence; it'd be better to not be available there than to threaten artistic freedom. Things shouldn't be banned just because of a law in another country a site isn't hosted in. Lest many of the games I like for instance wouldn't get Western releases.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I've mentioned child sex trafficking rings and the Muslim immigrant that was arrested for something or other and said to the police "white women are all whores that deserve to be raped". There is a problem here, and it comes from a lack of respect for the host culture. Such instances often inform the general populous about the people from these different cultures, because under the current multicultural framework of my country the various ethnic groups that come here end up segregating themselves. There's no sense of unified community amongst these groups, although it certainly exists within sporadic pockets, and most people don't end up interacting with these other cultures in any meaningful way. It fosters...stereotypes and othering. It's not beneficial to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Ya, sexual trafficking of minors isn't an exclusively Muslim thing. You are the one who has bought into a stereotype being perpetuated by the right. That stereotype wasn't naturally born, it was created. And you bought it. I would like to remind everyone that the US had it's first State officially ban child marriage this past week, if I have my dates straight.
> Europe - Global Slavery Index 2016
> 
> The point of stereotypes like these is to deliverately other scapegoat groups.
> ...


I never said it was an exclusively Muslim thing, that would be moronic. And it's not my fault that well publicized and documented crimes that specifically target white people are the basis of an entire cultural scapegoat. These things happen, and all they do is serve to cause rifts within societal groups. Fuck the racial or religious background of these people, that's a triviality in the grand scheme of things. The sex crimes themselves are the thing to focus on, and what's driving the selection of victims. This is a genuine issue here.


----------



## Rant (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I never said it was an exclusively Muslim thing, that would be moronic. And it's not my fault that well publicized and documented crimes that specifically target white people are the basis of an entire cultural scapegoat. These things happen, and all they do is serve to cause rifts within societal groups. Fuck the racial or religious background of these people, that's a triviality in the grand scheme of things. The sex crimes themselves are the thing to focus on, and what's driving the selection of victims. This is a genuine issue here.


You implied as much.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

Rant said:


> You implied as much.


I fail to see how. My country has had groups of migrant rapists that have specifically targeted native born children. This is a fact. Never did i state that home grown child rape isn't an issue. I brought up something that's used to bolster the anti immigrant narrative here as a means to add to the forced multiculturalism discussion. That is all.

I can't help but feel that, at this point, people have simply made up their minds based on their own biases and narrow lines of reasoning to conclude i'm something i'm not. Someone in this thread has basically told me i'm a fascist and i can sense the suspicion of my motives coming from this and other posts. It's a shame, it really is. As i said though, all actions have consequence. This narrow mindedness and borderline paranoia of political motives is exactly why i oppose what i do. No one trusts anyone anymore, and it seems that people are content to simply label someone as an enemy when they get the barest hint of their beliefs and move on. It's saddening.


----------



## Rant (May 13, 2018)




----------



## LogicNuke (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> The babyfur shit. Yes, that was stupid and i'd be a hypocrite if i claimed doing that was fine when banning "nazis" for being nazis wasn't. Iirc the cub artwork was part of a larger BDSM exhibition at the con and several within the group thought it would promote pedophilia. That's a separate debate but i don't believe it was right to try and get that content shelved. Interestingly they were employing the same mindset you were when you were talking about getting AltFurry affiliates banned from FA. I do remember that the guy who called the hotel claiming to be a journalist or some such was KryptoKronen, someone who used to frequent these forums and who got flack from the Alt Right groups he was in for being a furry. Since those calls were made, and possibly because of them, Kronen left or was kicked out of the group. I can't remember which exactly. I've read the Rolling Stone piece before. I'll get to the rest when i can be arsed in time.
> 
> Your last point has no merit on any level.


So basically you admit Altfurry membership got the convention shut down, didn't really answer my about the negative press Nazifurs bring to the fandom as highlighted by the news articles, and say you'll answer the rest when you "can be arsed in time."

Compelling arguments. Truly.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> So basically you admit Altfurry membership got the convention shut down, didn't really answer my about the negative press Nazifurs bring to the fandom as highlighted by the news articles, and say you'll answer the rest when you "can be arsed in time."
> 
> Compelling arguments. Truly.


Arguments for what exactly. Iirc the Rolling Stone article doesn't say much other than "some furfags think other furfags are nazis, here are excerpts of interviews with the accusers and the accused, some furball pun", Dogpatch is Dogpatch and i imagine the other 2 will be more of the same from outside media. As far as i'm concerned the negative press comes from people shrieking about these groups as opposed to the groups themselves, no one would care otherwise. Yes, Altfurry members ended up getting a con shut down, this is a fact. Other facts are that this wasn't their intent and that the one that ended up forcing security costs to be increased wasn't even a furry according to the article that Misha linked, he thought they were degenerates and was using them for his own goals. His girlfriend ended up despising furries as well. Seems odd to me that the ones within the group that actually held Neo Nazi ideals seemed to hate the fandom, puts an interesting spin on the concept of a Nazi furry in the first place.

And yes, you're tedious and your demeanor is off putting so i'll respond to you as and when i have the energy to deal with you.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Arguments for what exactly. Iirc the Rolling Stone article doesn't say much other than "some furfags think other furfags are nazis, here are excerpts of interviews with the accusers and the accused, some furball pun", Dogpatch is Dogpatch and i imagine the other 2 will be more of the same from outside media. As far as i'm concerned the negative press comes from people shrieking about these groups as opposed to the groups themselves, no one would care otherwise. Yes, Altfurry members ended up getting a con shut down, this is a fact. Other facts are that this wasn't their intent and that the one that ended up forcing security costs to be increased wasn't even a furry according to the article that Misha linked, he thought they were degenerates and was using them for his own goals. His girlfriend ended up despising furries as well. Seems odd to me that the ones within the group that actually held Neo Nazi ideals seemed to hate the fandom, puts an interesting spin on the concept of a Nazi furry in the first place.
> 
> And yes, you're tedious and your demeanor is off putting so i'll respond to you as and when i have the energy to deal with you.


One: just because actual Neo Nazis fucking hate furries doesn’t mean a furry can’t hold those same fucked up views.  A gay white person could be a racist ass and get kicked from the Klan for being gay, doesn’t mean he’s not still a racist ass.

And two: defeat is also an acceptable answer if you don’t feel like “dealing with it”.  Bawww for me some more


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> One: just because actual Neo Nazis fucking hate furries doesn’t mean a furry can’t hold those same fucked up views.  A gay white person could be a racist ass and get kicked from the Klan for being gay, doesn’t mean he’s not still a racist ass.
> 
> And two: defeat is also an acceptable answer if you don’t feel like “dealing with it”. Bawww for me some more


"just because actual Neo Nazis fucking hate furries" Well this kinda says it all doesn't it. Yes, i'm sure furries can hold similar views, watch the Kothorix video i posted initially to get a more detailed explanation of that. I don't see why you feel the need to state the obvious with the rest of your post.

"Bawww for me some more" Hah, don't have anything other than cheap insults to throw my way at this point huh? I'll deal with him and you, monotonous and boring as doing so may be, because i believe you both to be fundamentally incorrect and astonishingly arrogant with it. There's no winning here as talking to you both is basically like banging my head against a brick wall, but it doesn't mean i won't provide facts that counter or even bolster your points as necessary.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I fail to see how. My country has had groups of migrant rapists that have specifically targeted native born children. This is a fact. Never did i state that home grown child rape isn't an issue. I brought up something that's used to bolster the anti immigrant narrative here as a means to add to the forced multiculturalism discussion. That is all.
> 
> I can't help but feel that, at this point, people have simply made up their minds based on their own biases and narrow lines of reasoning to conclude i'm something i'm not. Someone in this thread has basically told me i'm a fascist and i can sense the suspicion of my motives coming from this and other posts. It's a shame, it really is. As i said though, all actions have consequence. This narrow mindedness and borderline paranoia of political motives is exactly why i oppose what i do. No one trusts anyone anymore, and it seems that people are content to simply label someone as an enemy when they get the barest hint of their beliefs and move on. It's saddening.


You are bringing your own biases to the table. That isn't surprising considering the amount of anti-immigrant propoganda in publication. Other people have brought their biases as well. The people insinuating you are part of the alt right or a Nazi are being asshats, and are jumping on overlapping biases, and exaggerating the extent. Don't mistake that for me calling you clean of your own pettiness in this thread. 


Logic, you made a claim, and have been overall a jackass. The burden of proof was on the anti-Nazi side because of the claim that Nazi/Altright furs are disrupting the community. We proved that, but Kyr was right to say we had the burden of proof there. That isn't sealioning, and I have dealt with my fair share of it in the past.

For those outside america, our police are very "shoot first, ask questions later", so swatting very often ends in someone getting killed. 

Everyone here needs to stop making ASSumptions about others, take getting debunked in stride, and quit being overall shitty. This is a debate and discussion, not something to be "won". It is also way past time the thread was closed.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> "just because actual Neo Nazis fucking hate furries" Well this kinda says it all doesn't it. Yes, i'm sure furries can hold similar views, watch the Kothorix video i posted initially to get a more detailed explanation of that. I don't see why you feel the need to state the obvious with the rest of your post.
> 
> "Bawww for me some more" Hah, don't have anything other than cheap insults to throw my way at this point huh? I'll deal with him and you, monotonous and boring as doing so may be, because i believe you both to be fundamentally incorrect and astonishingly arrogant with it. There's no winning here as talking to you both is basically like banging my head against a brick wall, but it doesn't mean i won't provide facts that counter or even bolster your points as necessary.


I watched the video.  Must be tiring jumping to conclusions like that, huh?  Here’s a tidbit, don’t ever fucking speak for me on anything again.  You either tolerate hate speech or you don’t.  It’s that simple.  And tolerating hate speech is a fundamentally shitty thing to do.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I watched the video.  Must be tiring jumping to conclusions like that, huh?  Here’s a tidbit, don’t ever fucking speak for me on anything again.  You either tolerate hate speech or you don’t.  It’s that simple.  And tolerating hate speech is a fundamentally shitty thing to do.


Well i'm sorry that your combative nature leads me to believe you won't actually take anything on board, and if you're that salty about being called out on your bullshit then just block me. If not i'll respond to you as and when i see fit. I tolerate hate speech, deal with it.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Well i'm sorry that your combative nature leads me to believe you won't actually take anything on board, and if you're that salty about being called out on your bullshit then just block me. If not i'll respond to you as and when i see fit. I tolerate hate speech, deal with it.


Then you’re a fundamentally shitty person.  Just calling it as I see it, because that’s a thing people do that finds oddly selective favoring around these parts.


----------



## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Then you’re a fundamentally shitty person.  Just calling it as I see it, because that’s a thing people do that finds oddly selective favoring around these parts.


Selective favouring? I take it you're suggesting that i'm only ok with white people spouting hateful bullshit with that remark. Not true i'm afraid. Everyone is free to be racist, sexist, or homophobic. Regardless of their gender, racial background or whatever else. You suppress no one, and you let them deal with the consequences of their beliefs. As a side note i'd personally love to hear how holding on to a principle makes me a fundamentally shitty person.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (May 13, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Selective favouring? I take it you're suggesting that i'm only ok with white people spouting hateful bullshit with that remark. Not true i'm afraid. Everyone is free to be racist, sexist, or homophobic. Regardless of their gender, racial background or whatever else. You suppress no one, and you let them deal with the consequences of their beliefs. As a side note i'd personally love to hear how holding on to a principle makes me a fundamentally shitty person.


Yeah, the consequences are people like me.  And I’ve already said that it’s a fundamentally shitty principle.  Can’t you read?


----------



## Stratelier (May 13, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> Nazi's are wrong. Period. so anything that *doesn't* explicitly portray "Nazi's are wrong" is, in effect, promoting it as something that might not inherently be wrong. so when someone draws a picture of their character just hanging out in a nazi uniform or anything even more extreme like sexualizing it, that is promoting that Nazi iconography in a socially acceptable, public light which is in itself unacceptable.


Agreed; no arguments here.



Kyr said:


> As a side note i'd personally love to hear how holding on to a principle makes me a fundamentally shitty person.


Don't principles tend to manifest themselves in your outward choices and actions?

For example, I find most body piercings off-putting.  If I walk by someone with a lot of them, I'm more likely to avoid making eye contact, put extra distance between us, etc.  If they approach me with a question (even just asking for directions), I'm more likely to give an answer that minimizes overall conversation time.  Granted, these actions may not be significant enough to trigger any particular consequences, but _they still happen_ all the same.


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## Kyr (May 13, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Yeah, the consequences are people like me.  And I’ve already said that it’s a fundamentally shitty principle.  Can’t you read?


No, i'm illiterate.

Fully aware the consequences are people like you, and i believe the principles people like you hold are fundamentally shitty and harmful to society. Hence this impasse.


Stratelier said:


> Don't principles tend to manifest themselves in your outward choices and actions?


Yes they do, and i was inquiring about the reasoning behind Bear's conclusions. Beyond a laughable emotional response of course.


Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


>


I quite agree, but this is where i've found myself.

Nice song btw.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> No, i'm illiterate.
> 
> Fully aware the consequences are people like you, and i believe the principles people like you hold are fundamentally shitty and harmful to society. Hence this impasse.
> 
> ...


I edited my post, just a heads up.


----------



## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Yes, Altfurry members ended up getting a con shut down, this is a fact.


All I wanted. That wasn't so bad. Don't defend those who are in the wrong.


Kyr said:


> Iirc the Rolling Stone article doesn't say much other than "some furfags think other furfags are nazis, here are excerpts of interviews with the accusers and the accused, some furball pun", Dogpatch is Dogpatch and i imagine the other 2 will be more of the same from outside media. As far as i'm concerned the negative press comes from people shrieking about these groups as opposed to the groups themselves, no one would care otherwise.


Try actually reading the articles before making your argument. You don't want to look foolish like how did when you were saying Heather Heyer's death was a hit-an-run and not an act of terrorism, now.


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 14, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I watched the video.  Must be tiring jumping to conclusions like that, huh?  Here’s a tidbit, don’t ever fucking speak for me on anything again.  You either tolerate hate speech or you don’t.  It’s that simple.  And tolerating hate speech is a fundamentally shitty thing to do.



You really handle debate well. I think you should become, like, a judge or something, since you're so good at seeing both sides of an argument.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 14, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I actually advocate using violence to disrupt the rise of hate groups when its appropriate or necessary


You're no different from domestic terrorists if you believe in this. 

You're giving me justification for beating up  some people


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 14, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> You really handle debate well. I think you should become, like, a judge or something, since you're so good at seeing both sides of an argument.


Everyone in this chat sucks at debate, myself included. 
AND YET YOU ARE ALL STILL LESS CANCER THAN MY FUCKING FACEBOOK PAGE!


----------



## BahgDaddy (May 14, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> Everyone in this chat sucks at debate, myself included.
> AND YET YOU ARE ALL STILL LESS CANCER THAN MY FUCKING FACEBOOK PAGE!



Usually I'm better. I can construct very elegant arguments when I want to. But I'm just like... why bother? I am just wasting my breath here, usually. 

And yeah. My Facebook page is like nothing but politics these days. Which is fine, in small doses? But it's usually just ranting! Ugh...


----------



## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> You're no different from domestic terrorists if you believe in this.
> 
> You're giving me justification for beating up  some people


He's talking about the federal government using force domestic terrorist and criminal movements like the Aryan Brotherhood, The Order, and other Neo-Nazi movements. These hate groups often engage terrorism and in fact kill more Americans domestically than any foreign terrorist group. If you're going to troll, understand America's politics and security situation first.


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 14, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> You're no different from domestic terrorists if you believe in this.
> 
> You're giving me justification for beating up  some people


Atomwaffen Division - Wikipedia


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> He's talking about the federal government using force domestic terrorist and criminal movements like the Aryan Brotherhood, The Order, and other Neo-Nazi movements. These hate groups often engage terrorism and in fact kill more Americans domestically than any foreign terrorist group. If you're going to troll, understand America's politics and security situation first.


battle of cable street - Google Search
Let's not get a twisted and idealized view of me.

EDIT: Not to mention the problems the FBI admits it faces in dealing with such groups, because of their infiltration of law enforcement.


----------



## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> battle of cable street - Google Search
> Let's not get a twisted and idealized view of me.
> 
> EDIT: Not to mention the problems the FBI admits it faces in dealing with such groups, because of their infiltration of law enforcement.


Still righteous. They were fighting the rise of fascism in England three year before the Allies did. They're good in my book. So are you.


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## TrishaCat (May 14, 2018)

Violence isn't justified unless you are being immediately and directly endangered (self defense, such as if someone physically attacks you)


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> Violence isn't justified unless you are being immediately and directly endangered (self defense).


You mean like the innocent protesters against the Unite The Rally in Charlottesville?


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## TrishaCat (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You mean like the innocent protesters against the Unite The Rally in Charlottesville?


I very sincerely cannot answer because I am not familiar with and am ignorant of  the details of what transpired there I'm embarrassed to say. I think I heard there was evidence that those involved in the rally had the intent to physically harm people there before it even started?
Either way that was something law enforcement should've been the ones tasked to handle. Not counterprotestors.


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## GreenZone (May 14, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> There is no Alt-Left



yes there is Antifa counts as Alt Left 

when people say Alt Left they're talking about the far left you just don't see it that way because you're in that group same as how Neo Nazis don't think Alt Right is a real thing


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 14, 2018)

I can only speak in absolutes as I don't trust the media on covering topics on both sides (let alone an unbiased one), I will not gauge on which group does more damage to society, I will only take in the fact that both domestic terrorists are bad. 

And as such, I will speak in absolutes when it comes to free speech and calling out people on resorting to violence.

These two things (in it's absolute) are fundamentally the reason why you americans can yap on nonsense.

Let me say this again and it's pretty simple
- Hate Speech is free speech
- But any speech that insinuate harming others is not covered by free speech.
- using violence in any form or ground should be punished by the fullest extent of the law. 

Don't make it complicated.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> I very sincerely cannot answer because I am not familiar with and am ignorant of  the details of what transpired there. I think I heard there was evidence that those involved in the rally had the intent to physically harm people there before it even started?
> Either way that was something law enforcement should've been the ones tasked to handle. Not counterprotestors.


So you come here to talk about an event you are not familiar with, not knowing what transpired. Brilliant. If you read the police reports and the official FBI investigative report, you would know that several Alt-Right planned to be violent at the rally and brought weapons to the rally. You would also know that local law enforcement was severely understaffed for the event and had not been engaging violent protestors for reasons ranging from lack of backup to waiting for serious violence in order to declare a state of emergency to disperse the crowd. So if the police cannot or will not help you, what are you going to do? This is why we have the legal term "self-defense". 

Now if you're done trolling, I'm sure you want to go back to defending cub porn.


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## Morbid Sanity (May 14, 2018)

I just feel like Liberals are complying with how the universe wants us to move forward, and the right are resisting it. Nevertheless both sides are needed and I don't care what happens. I'm nice to reasonable people (which obviously doesn't include blatant Neo-Nazis) So I won't overcomplicate that.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I can only speak in absolutes as I don't trust the media on covering topics on both sides (let alone an unbiased one), I will not gauge on which group does more damage to society, I will only take in the fact that both domestic terrorists are bad.


So how do you get your news? And if you are not properly informed, how can you contribute meaningfully this thread?


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> So how do you get your news? And if you are not properly informed, how can you contribute meaningfully this thread?


OK. I'll be quiet now.


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## Morbid Sanity (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> So how do you get your news? And if you are not properly informed, how can you contribute meaningfully this thread?


I don't watch the news because it's a waste of time. Politics are pointless and boring. No matter what happens in the world I'll be nice to who I wanna be nice to. No sense getting informed about something that I'm not interested and no sense taking sides if I'm not informed. (But like I said I still don't like blatant Neo-Nazis)


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## TrishaCat (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> So you come here to talk about an event you are not familiar with, not knowing what transpired. Brilliant. If you read the police reports and the official FBI investigative report, you would know that several Alt-Right planned to be violent at the rally and brought weapons to the rally. You would also know that local law enforcement was severely understaffed for the event and had not been engaging violent protestors for reasons ranging from lack of backup to waiting for serious violence in order to declare a state of emergency to disperse the crowd. So if the police cannot or will not help you, what are you going to do? This is why we have the legal term "self-defense".
> 
> Now if you're done trolling, I'm sure you want to go back to defending cub porn.


I commented on the idea of violence being considered justifiable (claiming that it isn't) within the context of situations that don't involve an immediate endangerment of one's self. I did not come here to discuss Charlottesville, nor am I trolling.

If at this event, an example that, to my awareness, you brought up, the protesters at the rally made an attempt to harm counterprotestors or brought weapons and displayed an immediate intent to do harm using them, then a violent reaction back is very likely arguable as self defense and thus I would not claim it as unjustified.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Battlechili said:


> I commented on the idea of violence being considered justifiable (claiming that it isn't) within the context of situations that don't involve an immediate endangerment of one's self. I did not come here to discuss Charlottesville, nor am I trolling.
> 
> If at this event, an example that, to my awareness, you brought up, the protesters at the rally made an attempt to harm counterprotesters or brought weapons and displayed an immediate intent to do harm using them, then a violent reaction back is very likely arguable as self defense and thus I would not claim it as unjustified.


I see you edited your response. There was no "if". The protestors brought weapons and official investigation uncovered intent to harm counterprotesters. You should read up on the event so you can make an informed opinion.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> All I wanted. That wasn't so bad. Don't defend those who are in the wrong.
> 
> Try actually reading the articles before making your argument. You don't want to look foolish like how did when you were saying Heather Heyer's death was a hit-an-run and not an act of terrorism, now.


I wasn't defending AltFurry for what they ended up causing, in the end it was a witch hunt against perceived pedophiles similar to the witch hunt against them. I simply offered up facts relating to the incident.

Now, if only taking the bare bones facts of the incident as truth while trying to ascertain the motives of the perpetrator on top of having to wade through the heated emotions of the third parties that undoubtedly wanted to fit the killing into their political narrative makes me a fool, then i'm happy to be a fool. I'll likely get to your links in time, but my interest in "conversing" with you is at a nadir at this point so you might be waiting a while. Would be good to know what facts you feel the articles profess instead of simply throwing out another lazy insult though. You're not aggravating me at this point, you're just boring me.


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## Illuminaughty (May 14, 2018)

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with depicting Nazis in media, being educated about the history, or simply liking a uniform. I think all of these things, even if some of them are small and dumb, are good ways of keeping the memory of what actually happened during WW2 alive, which is important even if it's uncomfortable at times.

But more importantly and pertinent to the conversation, we need to remember the Nazis both historically as well as realize them currently not as a faceless enemy comprised completely of pure evil, but as what they were and are. Which is _human beings_. They're people. They're sons, daughters, friends, spouses, siblings, etc. Being radicals doesn't make them any less of what they are, which is human, and before we can address the _issue_, we have to learn how to respect that. Because respecting that and combating the issue with reason, compassion, understanding and common sense is the only way to end the problem without causing or allowing another major tragedy.

Most people who cling to radical ideals are abused people- they want or need something in their life that makes them feel bigger, more powerful, more in control than they are. The answer isn't ripping that sense of agency away from them, it's showing them they can attain it by means that don't harm other people.

There is no faceless human enemy because all humans have a face- an identity, a personality. They have redeeming qualities and flaws and are ultimately as starved for something to believe in as anybody else. By humanizing the enemy, we can see the same flaws, fears and insecurities in us reflected in them. That can be startling, but it's necessary to acknowledge the reality of these moral gaffes of humanity before we can go about healing them.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I wasn't defending AltFurry for what they ended up causing, in the end it was a witch hunt against perceived pedophiles similar to the witch hunt against them. I simply offered up facts relating to the incident.
> 
> Now, if only taking the bare bones facts of the incident as truth while trying to ascertain the motives of the perpetrator on top of having to wade through the heated emotions of the third parties that undoubtedly wanted to fit the killing into their political narrative makes me a fool, then i'm happy to be a fool. I'll likely get to your links in time, but my interest in "conversing" with you is at a nadir at this point so you might be waiting a while. Would be good to know what facts you feel the articles profess instead of simply throwing out another lazy insult though. You're not aggravating me at this point, you're just boring me.


You have free will. As for hard evidence, I'll trust the assessments of trained investigators belonging to local and federal agencies who have the resources to discover the truth of the incident, which they publish in publicly available reports. Our Attorney General definitely concluded it was an act of terrorism. I provided hard facts and you have given excuses instead evidence, promising proof at some hypothetical point in the future. 

I'm sorry you didn't properly prepare for your trolling.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You have free will. As for hard evidence, I'll trust the assessments of trained investigators belonging to local and federal agencies who have the resources to discover the truth of the incident, which they publish in publicly available reports. Our Attorney General definitely concluded it was an act of terrorism. I provided hard facts and you have given excuses instead evidence, promising proof at some hypothetical point in the future.
> 
> I'm sorry you didn't properly prepare for your trolling.


As will i, that's basically what i said in the last thread about this shit. I don't trust people like you when it comes to declaring what the killing was but i trust the conclusions of the US justice system in this matter. What excuses have i given and what evidence do you think i need to provide?

Oh, and you're just trolling now are you. Well fuck me, it appears i've been had. Thanks for letting me know that you were just taking the piss the entire time and that i should never take anything you say seriously.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> As will i, that's basically what i said in the last thread about this shit. I don't trust people like you when it comes to declaring what the killing was but i trust the conclusions of the US justice system in this matter. What excuses have i given and what evidence do you think i need to provide?
> 
> Oh, and you're just trolling now are you. Well fuck me, it appears i've been had. Thanks for letting me know that you were just taking the piss the entire time and that i should never take anything you say seriously.


You didn't have to take my word. I provided evidence in the form of links, about the Charlottesville attack and the fandom stuff. Had you read them before you spoke, you could've saved yourself a lot of embarrassment. By the way, where's you evidence?

Have fun with all that salt, now.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You didn't have to take my word. I provided evidence in the form of links, about the Charlottesville attack and the fandom stuff. Had you read them before you spoke, you could've saved yourself a lot of embarrassment. By the way, where's you evidence?
> 
> Have fun with all that salt, now.


Yes, and i trust the people quoted in that link. You did a good. Good boy.

*pats*

I'd need to know what evidence you wanted before i could provide it good sir.

And thank you for the salt, seasons this popcorn perfectly. Not only a master troll but a master chef i see, do your talents never end?


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## Ramjet (May 14, 2018)

Wow what a cluster fuck...

First,free speech is free speech.Unless an avocation of direct violence is being used in context against someone.

Example:
Let's all go kill that man/women over there that believes/looks different from us.

Second,right/wrong is just a human societal construct and not an absolute.

Example:
What is considered right/wrong in the West is vastly different in a society like Saudi Arabia.

Third,if the only thing holding back another Nazi uprising is censorship of associated material or speech of said beliefs,I got some bad news for you.
Typically those actions have a way to imboden and strengthen the very cause your trying to suppress...

No....What you want is for these idiots to have the ability to show just how fucking stupid they are to the masses,and hope that the common sense and decency of said masses agree that their belief system is bullshit...


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## Dragonien (May 14, 2018)

Ramjet556 said:


> Wow what a cluster fuck...
> 
> First,free speech is free speech.Unless an avocation of direct violence is being used in context against someone.
> 
> ...




Ok so. Again. Just like with the second amendment people. The first amendment of the American constitution of free speech is not a magic spell that lets you magically get to say literally whatever you want at any point in time. It is there specifically to stop the direct systematic oppression of valid ideas, viewpoints and beliefs. it exists so that if you go out and say "Donald Trump is wrong for pulling out of the Iran Deal" then the government does not have the right to go arrest you. because what you said is not harmful, violent or threatening. BUT. if you were to say "I want to kill Donald Trump for pulling out of the Iran Deal" you can be arrested for that, because that has turned your thought into a threat, which is not protected under free speech. 

So for example, if there were an ISIS group in America that was spreading around pamphlets or operating a website in America that was portraying their ideology of death to Americans the government would be within their right to shut that down because that is an extremist violent hate group advocating an ideology fundamentally based on a threatening belief system. I.E. the death of the 'infidels'.  It is a defensive measure to prevent violent and disruptive socially unacceptable ideologies from spreading through the populace and creating unrest. because to be blunt, the larger portion of the population is ignorant and easily swayed in different ways. so it is societies, AKA Governments, job to protect the more susceptible members of our society from harmful ideology. Now you can argue all day long the dumbass slippery slope argument of "Well then we start labeling progressives as a hate group or anti abortionists as a hate group" but your whataboutism doesn't really work because we DON'T do that. because common sense actually can, you know, decide "hey. people that want to murder black people are not the same as people arguing a nuanced political topic". So when you have groups that have been correctly labeled as hate groups, such as the KKK who are labeled such due to multiple instances of violence, murder and intimidation against african americans, Or Nazi groups which follow an ideology responsible for the death of LITERALLY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. its very easy to say "ok these are reasonably ideologies that are not acceptable in society and thus do not deserve the protection of free speech as their fundamental belief is the harm and subjugation of other people." Without that somehow snowballing into "We're going to arrest this guy because he thinks gays should get married or that Donald Trump should win a second term"


BUT EVEN IF ALL OF THAT IS UNTRUE

This is not an argument about FREE SPEECH. this is an argument about FURAFFINITY'S OWN POLICIES. which is a private business that, as long as it is not causing direct harm or legitimate threat to people, can do whatever it pleases. and according to its written description of said "Whatever it pleases" it does not allow the promotion of hate groups or their iconography. YET DESPITE THAT they continue to look the other way when there are clear instances of the promotion of such hate group iconography. So ultimately this isnt even about whether Nazis are ok or not ok. Its about Nazis are FACTUALLY A HATE GROUP, and arguably one of the worst hate groups in human history. and by its own guidelines furaffinity should be removing their content, but is not. So either they need to DO THEIR JOB. or Change their own rules so people clearly know "these guys are ok with nazi iconography." its their right to choose to accept Nazis, and is our eight as the community to know that if that is what they want to do.  they cant say "Oh we're against nazis" but then not do anything about the nazis. that's disingenuous at best and harmful and insulting to those threatened at worst.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> A wall that would make Trump blush


I believe the slippery slope actually lies in the possibility for benign views to be labelled as fascist, and then suppressed using the logical framework you've laid out, because those views conflict with the status quo. And if you think that's far fetched and want to see an example of it, well there's one in this very thread.

But i digress, i'm only here because i'm salty and i want Senpai Logic to notice me.


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## Ramjet (May 14, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> Ok so. Again. Just like with the second amendment people. The first amendment of the American constitution of free speech is not a magic spell that lets you magically get to say literally whatever you want at any point in time. It is there specifically to stop the direct systematic oppression of valid ideas, viewpoints and beliefs. it exists so that if you go out and say "Donald Trump is wrong for pulling out of the Iran Deal" then the government does not have the right to go arrest you. because what you said is not harmful, violent or threatening. BUT. if you were to say "I want to kill Donald Trump for pulling out of the Iran Deal" you can be arrested for that, because that has turned your thought into a threat, which is not protected under free speech.
> 
> So for example, if there were an ISIS group in America that was spreading around pamphlets or operating a website in America that was portraying their ideology of death to Americans the government would be within their right to shut that down because that is an extremist violent hate group advocating an ideology fundamentally based on a threatening belief system. I.E. the death of the 'infidels'.  It is a defensive measure to prevent violent and disruptive socially unacceptable ideologies from spreading through the populace and creating unrest. because to be blunt, the larger portion of the population is ignorant and easily swayed in different ways. so it is societies, AKA Governments, job to protect the more susceptible members of our society from harmful ideology. Now you can argue all day long the dumbass slippery slope argument of "Well then we start labeling progressives as a hate group or anti abortionists as a hate group" but your whataboutism doesn't really work because we DON'T do that. because common sense actually can, you know, decide "hey. people that want to murder black people are not the same as people arguing a nuanced political topic". So when you have groups that have been correctly labeled as hate groups, such as the KKK who are labeled such due to multiple instances of violence, murder and intimidation against african americans, Or Nazi groups which follow an ideology responsible for the death of LITERALLY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. its very easy to say "ok these are reasonably ideologies that are not acceptable in society and thus do not deserve the protection of free speech as their fundamental belief is the harm and subjugation of other people." Without that somehow snowballing into "We're going to arrest this guy because he thinks gays should get married or that Donald Trump should win a second term"
> 
> ...




You might be questioned by the FBI for posting "I want to kill DT for pulling out of the Iran deal" but you wouldn't be detained/charged...If you changed that to "I'm going to kill DT for pulling out of the Iran deal" then yes,that would be a direct threat of violence subject to arrest...
Same works for ISIS who actively recruits individuals to do direct kinetic harm against Western civilians,it works under the same context...

No such laws exist that are held to a belief system of hate towards another group..

www.google.com: From cross burning to funeral protests, hate speech enjoys broad protection

As for FA code of conduct,your right.
It's a private site and has the ability to enforce whatever rules it finds fit...

Maybe instead of publicly posting your displeasure,you'd be better off talking with management privately about this manner...
A discussion forum is just that,a place for discussion...


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (May 14, 2018)




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## Ginza (May 14, 2018)

Frankly, this thread is ridiculous. There are two different arguments happening, and nobody is going to fundamentally agree. Nothing else you can do at that point.

We have one person saying

“Those who support hate speech are shitty people”

And another refuting with 

“Hate speech is free speech and it isn’t shitty”

These are two wildly contrasting viewpoints, and arguing on this thread won’t change that. Nobody here is changing anyone’s mind. Y’all are too dead set in your own ways to acknowledge the other side, and all this has become is a fight over something that realistically, should’ve been brought up with staff. The thread has devolved into people flinging insults and enjoying their good old ad hominem. Does “winning” an argument on a furry forum really do anything for anybody here? Honestly, this thread should have been locked long ago. The people in this thread are extremely disrespectful and abrasive to one another. Shit man, has nobody ever heard of manners? 

Someone being part of a group doesn’t make them as shitty as said group. Not all alt-furries are assholes and neo-Nazis. Not all people in ANTIFA furs are total whack jobs. They’re  people too, and joining a group doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with or support everything they do. Take our own damn fandom for example. Is it fair for people to view us all as zoophiles? Would you associating with this fandom mean you’re a zoophile? No. That’s moronic to think that being a furry=being a zoophile. The core value of “furryism” isn’t zoophilia, but a love of anthropomorphic animals. Similarly, both the messages of ANTIFA furs, altfurry, and other groups aren’t criminal. Altfurry at its core is an organization that stands against political correctness. ANTIFA stands against fascist ideology. Both of these groups have a notable cognitive dissonance. ANTIFA is notably against fascism, yet employ fascist ideologies to further their agenda. Altfurry is against PC and politics, yet they’re incredibly political, and do really shitty things. The question in relation to my point is, if you’re a good fur who is always kind and charitable, but also disagrees with PC (which technically means you share altfurry ideology) are you a total asshat? I don’t think so.

 I cannot stress this enough: a group of people can be shitty, but not all people in said group are.

If all political groups were to disappear from the fandom, I’d be more than happy. The fandom is no place for politics, and never should be. We’re all degenerates who like talking animals, why in the good hell are politics somehow brought into that concept? 

At some point, you people should grow the fuck up and learn to leave when a conversation is clearly going nowhere. None of you will ever come to a consensus. 

@Kyr , @LogicNuke clearly disagrees with your ideology. He isn’t going to budge on his beliefs that altfurry is a shitty group of people, and should be banned.

@LogicNuke , @Kyr also clearly disagrees with your ideology. He isn’t going to budge on his beliefs that altfurry isn’t a shitty group of people, and deserve to be here.

If you both could understand that, and simply accept that you two will disagree, that would be nice. This isn’t some noble cause y’all are fighting for. As serious or irrelevant as this topic may be, the Admins on this site don’t care, and will lock this thread. Nothing will have been achieved except for the fact that all of you wasted your time arguing on a furry forum. Learn to swallow your pride, and move on. To reiterate: *NOBODY HERE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER. NOBODY IS GOING TO REACH A CIVIL CONSENSUS. LEARN THAT THE ARGUMENT IS POINTLESS, AND THAT IT IS TIME TO LET IT GO.*

And to @Dragonien - this thread shouldn’t have existed in the first place. The admins on the forums aren’t even the same as those on the main site. Even if the admins here addressed your points by (which they won’t, as they’re non-existent, and have been, for months. This forum is dealing with a multitude of issues as it is. From multiple people with alt accounts to others posting child pornography and beastiality. There are already serious issues on this forum that aren’t being addressed. And frankly, if you ask me, preventing child porn from being spammed is a more pressing issue than dealing with “Nazi imagery” on an art site.) they can’t do anything. This is something you should have sent to admins on the main site, again. It’s good you at least tried, but what you should have done, is continued to try. This forum isn’t here for complaining about the site, but is rather, to discuss the fandom.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

@Ginza I'm fully aware of everything you've brought up, and i'm not trying to win anything. I know discussions like this don't work like that, nor should they. I quickly got tired of a lot of shit in this thread, most notably being called a fascist because i questioned a conclusion i couldn't trust given the only sources i'd heard it from at the time. I'm mostly interested in providing facts related to the half truths people within this fandom fill with bias towards certain groups. This isn't really about Logic (he's nothing to me but a source of laughter at this point), and i know that given how he operates we'll never see eye to eye or come to some sort of agreement on anything. To me this is fundamentally about issues within the American psyche and culture, and how the wider political doctrines espoused by various groups, left and right, are just fucked up, unnecessarily divisive and harmful to wider society. Fuck i never wanted to get dragged into politics within the fandom myself, but i found that there were people within it that just needed to be opposed. It's a wider issue with a society that's blinded by hate and narrow mindedness, and to me that's something that's worth trying to point out where possible.


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## BahgDaddy (May 14, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> yes there is Antifa counts as Alt Left
> 
> when people say Alt Left they're talking about the far left you just don't see it that way because you're in that group same as how Neo Nazis don't think Alt Right is a real thing



That's not true. The alt left literally doesn't exist. Have fun with your conspiracy theories.


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## BahgDaddy (May 14, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Frankly, this thread is ridiculous. There are two different arguments happening, and nobody is going to fundamentally agree. Nothing else you can do at that point.
> 
> We have one person saying
> 
> ...



That was an enjoyable and well thought out post. It would be nice to see more of this sort of material in the future, from you, but also from others as well. I'll bow out now, myself.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I'd need to know what evidence you wanted before i could provide it good sir.


You could always provide evidence for your counterarguments. I didn't think I'd have to explain how debates work. Furthermore, you've admitted your ignorance on several of the points you've made throughout this thread. @Ginza should read the thread. It's one thing for a person to not admit they're wrong. It's a completely thing for them to repeatedly admit they themselves were mistaken about various points and take exception when people call them out on it.


Ginza said:


> And to @Dragonien - this thread shouldn’t have existed in the first place. The admins on the forums aren’t even the same as those on the main site. Even if the admins here addressed your points by (which they won’t, as they’re non-existent, and have been, for months.


He's raising the issue here because it's providing him direct access to @Dragoneer to address his concerns. Like how you did when you made that "Hope You Get Your Shit Together" thread, but more polite. He's raising his points civilly and he's a user on the site asking an employee to address a quality issue. Why deny him that?



Ginza said:


> This forum is dealing with a multitude of issues as it is. From multiple people with alt accounts to others posting child pornography and beastiality. There are already serious issues on this forum that aren’t being addressed. And frankly, if you ask me, preventing child porn from being spammed is a more pressing issue than dealing with “Nazi imagery” on an art site.) they can’t do anything. This is something you should have sent to admins on the main site, again. It’s good you at least tried, but what you should have done, is continued to try. This forum isn’t here for complaining about the site, but is rather, to discuss the fandom.


Most organizations usually uphold all their policies, not a few because because there are just too many. @Dragonien just wants consistent upholding of all those policies. Similar to how you did when you made your complaint. Respect that.


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## Troj (May 14, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I still don’t understand why you would accept such disgusting ideologies as “just free speech” like whose side are you really on here?



There are multiple delicate complexities which have to be navigated here.

Whenever you give an authority (like the state) the power to decide which forms of expression are beyond the pale, you're taking a risk. Today, the wind might be blowing in your favor, but tomorrow, your ideological opponents might use the same laws or same moral arguments to restrict  ideas _you_ hold dear, or crack down on a new scientific finding or philosophical thought that inherently challenges the old paradigms and power structures.

Once upon a time, the Powers That Be saw fit to restrict any criticism of Christianity, acknowledgement of homosexuality, education about contraception or abortion,  open discussion about scientific ideas that ran counter to Christian thought, frank discussions or portrayals of sex, positive endorsements of race-mixing, naughty language, portrayals of explicit violence and the like on the grounds that even humoring these ideas would erode the moral and social fabric of society.

At the same time, especially when it comes to hate speech, people need to realize that the whole idyllic vision of the Marketplace of Ideas is a total pipe dream, in the sense that the best, truest, and most rational ideas do _not_ necessarily win the day. Human beings have a tendency to latch onto ideas because they're appealing, simple, well-marketed, and oft-repeated, and that has nothing to do with them being right.

If enough people get on board with a bad-but-appealing idea, this _can_ have serious consequences for society. Examples of this include anti-vaxxers eroding herd immunity, creationists undermining science education, and people acting on homophobic, racist, transphobic, xenophobic, and sexist views.

The Marketplace of Ideas is also a pipe dream because it typically assumes everyone has an equal voice, and an equal opportunity and ability to make themselves heard. Obviously, the oppressed and impoverished person living in Flint lacks the power and influence of the famous Youtuber or TV news personality. The marginalized and stigmatized group obviously lacks the power, influence, and respect of the established majority.

In addition to implicitly assuming that everyone has an equal voice, privileged people tend to think of this Marketplace of Ideas as a nice, friendly, rational game of intellectual tennis. I express my opinions, you express yours, we all have a lovely time, and then we all have tea with no hard feelings, pip pip cheerio. As a result, privileged folks don't understand that "Blacks are naturally less intelligent and more prone to criminality" and "Transgender people are mentally ill" are not "just opinions" in the vein of "I don't like the Chainsmokers," because these hateful views have a very real and serious impact.

Vulnerable and marginalized people are fighting for their very lives, so it's dangerously naive and/or profoundly disingenuous to think that they should react to their own (especially daily) dehumanization as "just a dissenting opinion". It's even more naive and disingenuous to think that enough people getting on board with any idea or ideology, good or bad, won't facilitate some kind of a tipping point for society, good or bad.

So, there's the tightrope as it stands.


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## Ginza (May 14, 2018)

I’m not going to bother quoting you @LogicNuke

This is exactly what I’m talking about. You can’t just admit that hey, this is a stupid thread, and not worth the argument and insults. Instead, you had to refute me when I wasn’t even making an argument, and continue fighting with Kyr.

The only valid question you proposed, was why his thread was irrelevant, while mine wasn’t. The reason was explained in my original post, which I doubt you bothered to read, because if you had, you might have seen I had good points and wasn’t attacking anyone at all

And FYI, I read every single post on this thread in its entirety, so please do not assume I did not.



Ginza said:


> *The admins on the forum aren’t even the same as those on the main site
> *
> Snip
> *
> Even if the admins here addressed your points.. there’s nothing they can do*



My thread was made to bring attention to an issue on THIS forum to the admins on THIS forum

This thread was made to bring attention to an issue on a DIFFERENT website to admins of a DIFFERENT website.

I am not interested in arguing with you. You have a track record of continuing on incessantly, and frankly, I’m too tired to spend any of my brain power on your unnecessary attitude and fallacies. Good day


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## AppleButt (May 14, 2018)

Bad press is good press.  People really need to learn that.

I don’t believe anyone on this thread believes in Nazism.  

These people wouldn’t even really have a platform to speak on if you just left them alone and let them be stupid.

Remember Milo Yiannopolis?  Yeah if people hadnt flipped out over him he’d have been done with way before the pedophile incident.

People these days need to just let stupid people put their own foots in their mouths.  

All were doing for Nazis right now is giving them attention they don’t need.

After all free speech means people are allowed to be as stupid as they want.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You could always provide evidence for your counterarguments. I didn't think I'd have to explain how debates work. Furthermore, you've admitted your ignorance on several of the points you've made throughout this thread. @Ginza should read the thread. It's one thing for a person to not admit they're wrong. It's a completely thing for them to repeatedly admit they themselves were mistaken about various points and take exception when people call them out on it.


Now, madam. In regards to ignorance i assume you're referring to Charlottesville, in which case i have explained myself with the utmost adequacy in regards to the ISIS inspired hit and run previously within the confines of this thread. Furthermore good Xir, you were the sentient bag of muscle and sinew that brought up Charlottesville by posting my deeply personal and private message to you within the aforementioned confines of this very thread as a sort of got ya. Blatantly and inexcusably ignoring the fact i'd conveyed to you the fact i thought the succulent morsel of information provided could very well have been false. Moreover, i stated previously in the, now unfortunately deceased, thread that covered a strikingly similar topic to this one that if there was a statement from a government official regarding the killing that stated that it was truly an act of terrorism i'd accept it as i would've believed that the government of the United States of America was a trustworthy source. Strikes me as rather peculiar that, based on the fact that you had this information, you didn't share it when it could've been presented on civil grounds that wouldn't have resulted in you seeking to defame my fine and upstanding character. But i digress. What, my esteemed Lunarian, do i have to provide evidence for exactly? Rebuttals to several of your assertions have been made in this thread, is there any evidence more official that you require on a specific matter or are you content to console yourself in vaguery for the benefit of nary a soul that stands present?


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Ginza said:


> And FYI, I read every single post on this thread in its entirety, so please do not assume I did not.


Then you missed the parts where Kyr admitted he was talking out of his ass about the Charleslottesville, which was an act of terror that matters at least to me and the other who called him out on it. When someone calls the deaths and injuries of Americans an accident, that pissed me off, whatever the forum. Never mind the minor Altfurry bullshit he admitted he was wrong about. 



Ginza said:


> My thread was made to bring attention to an issue on THIS forum to the admins on THIS forum
> 
> This thread was made to bring attention to an issue on a DIFFERENT website to admins of a DIFFERENT website.


Last time I checked, Dragoneer runs FA in its entirety. He is responsible for site maintenance. Contacting him on the forum about the problem is a good way to get it fixed. Also, a lot of users have accounts on both sites and use the forum to address issues on the main site. There literally dozens of threads talking about issues on the main site and those issues have been addressed. That why this section is called "Site Discussion".


Ginza said:


> I am not interested in arguing with you. You have a track record of continuing on incessantly, and frankly, I’m too tired to spend any of my brain power on your unnecessary attitude and fallacies. Good day


I've got attitude, but I haven't brought up any fallacies. You could point them out.

But if you're going, I hope the rest of you day at school is going well.


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> When someone calls the deaths and injuries of Americans an accident, that pissed me off, whatever the forum. .


Did you know that a new report from the National Safety Council said that in 2014, more than 136,000 Americans died accidentally?

Did you also know that by accident i was referring to the potential motivations of James Fields when the strict facts of the matter seemed unclear and rooted in bias?

Plus frankly i thought that organizing a potential mass murder at your own political rally was some of the dumbest shit i'd ever heard of, guess that speaks to the intellectual capacity of our Alt Right overlords.


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Furthermore good _Xir_, _you were the sentient bag of muscle and sinew_ that brought up Charlottesville by posting my deeply personal and private message to you within the aforementioned confines of this very thread as a sort of got ya.


Touchy. Someone's triggered. Triggered enough not to spellcheck their insults. 

Please. You're message wasn't "deeply personal and private". You just wanted to rub your gaslighting of the Charlottesville attack and Heather Heyer's death in my face after the "Remove Antifa" thread. The information you provided was indeed false, which begs the question, why advance an argument with shoddy evidence? 

To troll, that's why.

And you send that information right after I set the record with what the Attorney General said about the attack in a legitimate article, which should ended the argument right there. In your own words:


Kyr said:


> Moreover, i stated previously in the, now unfortunately deceased, thread that covered a strikingly similar topic to this one that if there was a statement from a government official regarding the killing that stated that it was truly an act of terrorism i'd accept it as i would've believed that the government of the United States of America was a trustworthy source.


You read the news article before the thread got removed. So you knew the facts and proceeded anyway.


Kyr said:


> Strikes me as rather peculiar that, based on the fact that you had this information, you didn't share it when it could've been presented on civil grounds that wouldn't have resulted in you seeking to defame my fine and upstanding character.


Like I've said multiple times on this thread, if you hate being proven wrong, know what you're talking about before you talk about it. Then you won't have to backtrack what you said and wonder why people are making fun of you for being wrong. Or just don't post. I'm good with either.


Kyr said:


> Did you know that a new report from the National Safety Council said that in 2014, more than 136,000 Americans died accidentally?
> 
> Did you also know that by accident i was referring to the potential motivations of James Fields when the strict facts of the matter seemed unclear and rooted in bias?
> 
> Plus frankly i thought that organizing a potential mass murder at your own political rally was some of the dumbest shit i'd ever heard of, guess that speaks to the intellectual capacity of our Alt Right overlords.


Did you know our Justice Department and local law enforcement has investigated the attack and concluded it was terrorism? Did you know that citing a random report on accident statistics for something that was proven not to be accident isn't advancing your case, especially when you've already admitted it wasn't an accident? You're just going in circles now, buddy.


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## Troj (May 14, 2018)

My eyes are glazing over, so let's try something else, shall we?

In six or fewer sentences, explain:

What is your "Nightmare World?" What does it look like?
What would contribute to creating this Nightmare World?
What is your "Dream World?" What does it look like?
What would contribute to creating this Dream World?


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## Kyr (May 14, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Touchy. Someone's triggered. Triggered enough not to spellcheck their insults.
> 
> Please. You're message wasn't "deeply personal and private". You just wanted to rub your gaslighting of the Charlottesville attack and Heather Heyer's death in my face after the "Remove Antifa" thread. The information you provided was indeed false, which begs the question, why advance an argument with shoddy evidence?
> 
> ...


Yes good sir, i'm deeply triggered and offended. Your merciless assault on the fabric of my very being left me so enraged that i couldn't be bothered to even spellsheck my grandiloquence, such was the frothing at my keyboard that surely continues unabated. Why quote shoddy evidence, because my good fellow it provided a counter narrative, one which i was fully content to explore given the frothing of others similar to me in regards to the incident. Rationality was sadly not present, even if people possessed the facts of the matter their mannerisms in regards to it gave the impression of irrationality. As such, who am i to blindly accept statements from those i deemed as irrational?

Are you calling me a troll just because i live under a bridge? Again i'm deeply offended, how dare you mock the homeless and downtrodden. May you be further assaulted by further enraged ejaculations such as this. But no good sir, you previously stated that you were also of the homeless persuasion. A self hating hobo, well you do have my pity good sir, you have my pity indeed.

And nay, nay i say i did not read your article in time. The thread was deleted before i had the chance to retrieve it and as such no information was available to me, except in the pm i sent to you where the article was linked. Balderdash, foisted by my own desire to make good on a statement i'd made previously in the thread before perusing your hallowed tome. And then, y'know, forgetting about it after your laughable response to me. You don't foster a willingness to consume your media related sources i do have to say.

Nay again good sir, nay i do assuredly say. I'm not one to cower in fear at the prospect of being incorrect, far from it. I like being proven wrong because it shows me that there is more to learn. And maybe simply knowing that you don't have the firmest grasp on things is beneficial if you're one to ask for proof of certain claims, as i demonstrably have on a myriad of occasions.

Yes, yes my fellow. I am now fully aware of the information you provided and am eternally grateful for it. Knowledge is power and your little tid bit of informative prose has certainly proved empowering. And was i trying to advance my case with that little factiod pertaining to accidents? Was i not good sir i'll have you know. I was almost certainly not.


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## Cawdabra (May 14, 2018)

Dragonien said:


> literally ... literally ... LITERALLY ... literally ... literally ... literally





Dragonien said:


> LITERALLY ...literally ... literally





Dragonien said:


> Literally ... LITERALLY  ... literally  ... LITERALLY ... literally





Dragonien said:


> Literally ... literally





Dragonien said:


> literally ...LITERALLY


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## LogicNuke (May 14, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Yes good sir, i'm deeply triggered and offended. Your merciless assault on the fabric of my very being left me so enraged that i couldn't be bothered to even spellsheck my grandiloquence, such was the frothing at my keyboard that surely continues unabated. Why quote shoddy evidence, because my good fellow it provided a counter narrative, one which i was fully content to explore given the frothing of others similar to me in regards to the incident. Rationality was sadly not present, even if people possessed the facts of the matter their mannerisms in regards to it gave the impression of irrationality. As such, who am i to blindly accept statements from those i deemed as irrational?
> 
> Are you calling me a troll just because i live under a bridge? Again i'm deeply offended, how dare you mock the homeless and downtrodden. May you be further assaulted by further enraged ejaculations such as this. But no good sir, you previously stated that you were also of the homeless persuasion. A self hating hobo, well you do have my pity good sir, you have my pity indeed.
> 
> ...


Get off the cross, Jesus. You're really going to play the victim? You could've avoided this entire episode by reserving judgement until you knew the facts of the matter, instead idly speculating on circumstances surrounding a country and situation you were clearly not familiar enough with. Man up and move on.

Evil Pigeon In A Party Hat, are we really going shitpost about the OP overusing the word literally? Come on.


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## Julen (May 14, 2018)

not a huge fan of them krauts tbh

not going to say more because once upon a time I wished death on some nazi fuck I knew and got banned an entire month for doing so.

which is lovely isn't it.




I digress


but yeah




 I wouldn't be against what the creator of the thread said really





Don't mind me 



just lurking around really


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## BahgDaddy (May 14, 2018)

*applause*


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (May 15, 2018)

Due to multiple reports concerning content in this thread, I am closing it up.


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