# Cash raffle legality on FA



## Armaetus (Nov 18, 2013)

Are these even allowed, we are talking about a $1,111 prize giveaway.


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## Jabberwocky (Nov 18, 2013)

i think it REALLY depends on the amount.

$1,111 sounds too good to be true tbh.


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## Teal (Nov 18, 2013)

I think it's.

Raffle with money prize = yes
Spend money to get into the raffle/tickets = no

Though I'm not entirely sure myself.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Nov 18, 2013)

Idk, it seems too good to be true, and there's no rule against that.
And the raffle itself seems to go by the book, spread the word etc.

So far what I know is that you can't sell raffle tickets for money, but money prices are something I am not sure of.


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## Armaetus (Nov 18, 2013)

What if a minor wins the large prize award? Also I am not sure if to include the journal or not.


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## Trpdwarf (Nov 18, 2013)

It depends upon how the raffle is done. Raffles are allowed as long as the people who participate are not actually donating any actual money/items, etc. You can only run raffles where it is 100 percent free to enter. You cannot collect money from the attendances, or any other kind of goods. If it's not 100 percent free to join, it's not allowed.


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## Willow (Nov 18, 2013)

Glaice said:


> What if a minor wins the large prize award? Also I am not sure if to include the journal or not.


Depends on what you mean by minor and also how the money is being transacted. If it's through Paypal, then it's fine. Because if I'm not mistaken you have to be 13 to actually open a personal Paypal (not a merchant one) and so it'd be okay for them to win the prize unless the contest holder stated otherwise. 

If it's real legal tender, then not so much. I wouldn't say it's actually illegal but it'd cause the parents to be concerned.


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## Smelge (Nov 18, 2013)

It may be legal, but it's dumb as fuck.

HEY, LETS BUY POPULARITY.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 18, 2013)

Willow said:


> Depends on what you mean by minor and also how the money is being transacted. If it's through Paypal, then it's fine. Because if I'm not mistaken you have to be 13 to actually open a personal Paypal (not a merchant one) and so it'd be okay for them to win the prize unless the contest holder stated otherwise.
> 
> If it's real legal tender, then not so much. I wouldn't say it's actually illegal but it'd cause the parents to be concerned.



18 to have a PayPal


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## Dire Newt (Nov 18, 2013)

I don't think it's _technically_ illegal, but I think the person who's holding it is one who constantly asks for free art here on the forums... so I have my doubts about its legitimacy.


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## RTDragon (Nov 18, 2013)

I've actually had concerns about this since i've been seeing the those raffles journals few days ago, and that much money brings a lot of red flags as well as the requirements doesn't sound legit. I can understand an art raffle but what really felt uncomfortable was the cash raffle. I'm not sure if it's even allowed and it feels kinda cheap to me. Which i do question is something like that is allowed? I just feel that something like that could eventually become a big problem.


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## Willow (Nov 18, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> 18 to have a PayPal


Really? Did they just change that for personal accounts too?

I knew merchant accounts you had to be 18 to sign up for but I thought you didn't have to for just a regular one.


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## RTDragon (Nov 18, 2013)

Dire Newt said:


> I don't think it's _technically_ illegal, but I think the person who's holding it is one who constantly asks for free art here on the forums... so I have my doubts about its legitimacy.



Actually your sadly right since this now even brings up more red flags since most of the posts of the person are asking for free art. Though i also noticed they did a raffle involving a $1000 comic by Jailbird. 
Which actually brings up another concerning question which i will not even ask.


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## GreenReaper (Nov 18, 2013)

It probably is illegal, under state law. This is a lottery: there is a prize, the winner is chosen by chance, and there is consideration is required for entry. All U.S. states heavily regulate lotteries, given their history.

But wait, I hear, you don't have to pay! Well, having watch you to enter is consideration. Posting a journal is consideration. Doing (or not doing) just about anything that you don't have to do and can legally do is consideration.

AC did something like this a while back - I got people arguing the definition, but they turned it into a legal sweepstakes that allowed people to enter without submitting work the next year.

Also, on a more practical note, I suspect this journal is what brought FA to its knees today. The journal in question causes over 800 separate accesses and 26Mb of data to be downloaded (mostly icons). Combine that with the fact that everyone has to visit it and post to it to enter, and you have a self-made DoS on your hands.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 18, 2013)

Willow said:


> Really? Did they just change that for personal accounts too?
> 
> I knew merchant accounts you had to be 18 to sign up for but I thought you didn't have to for just a regular one.



Paypal's TOS said you must be 18. Because you are entering a legal contract with Paypal.


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## Willow (Nov 18, 2013)

GreenReaper said:


> It probably is illegal, under state law. This is a lottery: there is a prize, the winner is chosen by chance, and there is consideration is required for entry. All U.S. states heavily regulate lotteries, given their history.
> 
> But wait, I hear, you don't have to pay! Well, having watch you to enter is consideration. Posting a journal is consideration. Doing (or not doing) just about anything that you don't have to do and can legally do is consideration.


Well they wouldn't just give the money away without people putting in effort. Also unlike the lottery, which is gambling and costs money, this is neither. Just someone hosting a giveaway really. But they're called raffles because the winner is randomly selected. 



> Also, on a more practical note, I suspect this journal is what brought FA to its knees today. The journal in question causes over 800 separate accesses and 26Mb of data to be downloaded (mostly icons). Combine that with the fact that everyone has to visit it and post to it to enter, and you have a self-made DoS on your hands.


Seeing as how people have large scale raffles all the time with no problem, I almost doubt it really.



Arshes Nei said:


> Paypal's TOS said you must be 18. Because you are entering a legal contract with Paypal.


Huh. It is :/
I seriously don't remember it being 18 though when I registered and I'm almost certain I was 17 at the time I made it. 

Ah well. You're right.


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## GreenReaper (Nov 18, 2013)

You can certainly have a raffle in some states - which is a form of lottery - but it has to be done in set manner, according to state law (in this case, it's likely Georgia, where the poster is). For example, in some states - like Georgia - it is required that only licensed non-profit organizations run raffles, and that the prize be lower than a certain amount to avoid fingerprinting. In others, the random selection may need to be by a certain inspected mechanism. The goal in most cases is to prevent fraudulent or exploitative lotteries.

It's fine to just give away money, or something else of value. The issue is when you give away money in return for something, in which case it's no longer a gift.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 18, 2013)

Raffles are against Paypal's TOS anyways. So hope you don't get your winnings there.


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## DarrylWolf (Nov 18, 2013)

If Krispup is lying about giving over $1000 away, it would be a disappointment and the entire community would tar him with the label "Popufur". It would be an interesting topic at most conventions. The only other money giveaway I know of is Bogrim's tournament which gave away $300 (and lots of free porn) to anyone who could win a 128-man tournament.


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## Willow (Nov 18, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Raffles are against Paypal's TOS anyways. So hope you don't get your winnings there.


Well now that that's been settled. 

So then it probably would be best if the money was given to an adult. 


DarrylWolf said:


> If Krispup is lying about giving over $1000 away, it would be a disappointment and the entire community would tar him with the label "Popufur".


Pretty sure they'd label him a scammer before they labelled him popufur.


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## Arshes Nei (Nov 18, 2013)

Well like I said, I hope it's not done through Paypal because someone who is bitter about not winning can report the account :/


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## Verin Asper (Nov 19, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well like I said, I hope it's not done through Paypal because someone who is bitter about not winning can report the account :/


Not to mention paypal gonna be suspicious and then the person's bank will be too


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## DarrylWolf (Nov 19, 2013)

Willow said:


> Well now that that's been settled.
> 
> So then it probably would be best if the money was given to an adult.
> 
> Pretty sure they'd label him a scammer before they labelled him popufur.



Well, not if he didn't charge money for it, how could he be a scammer. However, this is one of the most insane ways to get people to watch you.


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## Smelge (Nov 19, 2013)

Dire Newt said:


> I don't think it's _technically_ illegal, but I think the person who's holding it is one who constantly asks for free art here on the forums... so I have my doubts about its legitimacy.



He is actually browsing for free art at the time I'm typing this.

Classy.


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## GreenReaper (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, he _could_ spend all his money on commissions - but if what you really want is attention, this is far more effective, no?

But this risks getting off-topic and overly personal. The issue is running raffles. Whether it's an issue _for FA_ is up to its staff; but the number-one rule on the terms of service is that the site not be used for unlawful purposes, and I believe the links I've provided show clearly that his raffle is illegal in the U.S. state of Georgia, where the subject claims to reside.

I suspect the law does not apply to FA since it is not running the game. This is good, since I don't know whether the municipality in which Ferrox Art LLC is incorporated has chosen to permit such games, and Ferrox Art LLC is not an eligible organization (a nonprofit). However, if FA does want to go by Pennsylvania's rules, they're over here. Raffles need actual raffle tickets, must be picked in public, have various requirements, and prizes in excess of $500 require a permit. Nobody under 18 can play or operate games of chance. Etc.


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## Smuttymutt (Nov 19, 2013)

Smelge said:


> He is actually browsing for free art at the time I'm typing this.
> 
> Classy.



Maybe he should have run a 'contest' chance to win 1111 dollars for free arts


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## Smelge (Nov 19, 2013)

Smuttymutt said:


> Maybe he should have run a 'contest' chance to win 1111 dollars for free arts



Maybe he should try fucking paying for art if he's got that much money lying around.


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## RTDragon (Nov 19, 2013)

Smelge said:


> He is actually browsing for free art at the time I'm typing this.
> 
> Classy.




I really think something needs to be done about that. someone who can blow that much money on commissions and asks on the artist exchange for free art. Something tells me this could be used to exploit artists if they are not aware that the person has that kind of money to commissions and/or has very poor budget habits.


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## Smuttymutt (Nov 19, 2013)

Smelge said:


> Maybe he should try fucking paying for art if he's got that much money lying around.



That was sarcasm, but honestly if he gets people to do free art for him its their choice


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## Shinxtails (Nov 19, 2013)

Isn't it request by law to report any winnings over $500? If so, doesn't the winner have to pay taxes to the IRS about it?


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## Smuttymutt (Nov 19, 2013)

Shinxtails said:


> Isn't it request by law to report any winnings over $500? If so, doesn't the winner have to pay taxes to the IRS about it?



10k here. along with gifts over 10k


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## Verin Asper (Nov 19, 2013)

GreenReaper said:


> Well, he _could_ spend all his money on commissions - but if what you really want is attention, this is far more effective, no?
> 
> But this risks getting off-topic and overly personal. The issue is running raffles. Whether it's an issue _for FA_ is up to its staff; but the number-one rule on the terms of service is that the site not be used for unlawful purposes, and I believe the links I've provided show clearly that his raffle is illegal in the U.S. state of Georgia, where the subject claims to reside.
> 
> I suspect the law does not apply to FA since it is not running the game. This is good, since I don't know whether the municipality in which Ferrox Art LLC is incorporated has chosen to permit such games, and Ferrox Art LLC is not an eligible organization (a nonprofit). However, if FA does want to go by Pennsylvania's rules, they're over here. Raffles need actual raffle tickets, must be picked in public, have various requirements, and prizes in excess of $500 require a permit. Nobody under 18 can play or operate games of chance. Etc.



....
Isnt FA in Virginia?


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## RTDragon (Nov 19, 2013)

Smuttymutt said:


> That was sarcasm, but honestly if he gets people to do free art for him its their choice



Even so but using the art exchange for free art and knowing has that kind of money to blow on that actually is frowned deeply upon there since i've seen threads when users catch on that especially if their posting history is like that.

And already there are quite a few journals posted about it not entering but about cash raffles. And there's something from this journal http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5270717/ that hits quite a few unexpected questions.


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## Smelge (Nov 19, 2013)

Smuttymutt said:


> That was sarcasm, but honestly if he gets people to do free art for him its their choice



Not really.

He pops into a free art thread and requests something. In itself, not bad. Then you look at his post history, and over the few months he's been on this forum, 95% of his posts have been free art requests. Even if you ignore the $1111 thing, he's still whoring the shit out of the place without giving anything back to the forum.

Then he pops up and says "here's $1111 for some popularity". It's essentially saying that he has money to burn, but he feels that the artists on FAF aren't worth a cent to him. It's incredibly dickish.

The people offering free art aren't aware of what he's up to, they've just dropped in to give away some stuff, unaware they're being taken advantage of.


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## GreenReaper (Nov 19, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> ....
> Isnt FA in Virginia?


The servers may be, but the business entity is not. Ferrox Art is a domestic limited liability company in Pennsylvania. Donations are also sent to Pennsylvania.


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## Gryphoneer (Nov 19, 2013)

I sense major e-lawyering in this thread.


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## Verin Asper (Nov 19, 2013)

GreenReaper said:


> The servers may be, but the business entity is not. Ferrox Art is a domestic limited liability company in Pennsylvania. Donations are also sent to Pennsylvania.


Thus its thru Virginia cause the person is doing this thru FA's Server
heck many of the rules FA abides is cause the SERVERS are in Virginia thus they have to take into consideration not only Pennsylvania but also Virginia

Its like even though where I work the main headquarters are in Canada...we have to follow Florida laws cause this branch is in Florida


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## Armaetus (Nov 20, 2013)

Already sent a ticket in just in case it might cause some troubles.

Browsing free art? What the fuck is wrong with this canid individual? He can just buy commissions with the money instead of  buying popularity via a $1,111 "raffle".


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## Zeitzbach (Nov 20, 2013)

Legal or not, I have to say this is going to be gold.

How I can't wait for the sequel, especially if this raffle ends up with an alt account as the "random" winner, or that it's actually fake.


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## shadowsfox (Nov 20, 2013)

This is all hilarious entertainment Maybe Someone should do a 11111 dollar give away and see if you can clear 30k followers


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## Ozriel (Nov 20, 2013)

Zeitzbach said:


> Legal or not, I have to say this is going to be gold.
> 
> How I can't wait for the sequel, especially if this raffle ends up with an alt account as the "random" winner, or that it's actually fake.



That s what I am thinking that the person will have a friend make an alt account and announce it as the winner. This is one of those situations where it is "too good to be true" deals.


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## RTDragon (Nov 20, 2013)

But even so this is just asking for it even more. especially since he's also requiring people to spread this raffle to other sites such as Deviantart, twitter, and tumblr. (also facebook as well too) The former deviantart since i'm not sure what going to happen if raffle journals start popping up everywhere on DA.


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## Zeitzbach (Nov 20, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> That s what I am thinking that the person will have a friend make an alt account and announce it as the winner. This is one of those situations where it is "too good to be true" deals.



Make it seems legit with a poorly coded randomizer that shows that said alt wins. (Either through hard code, or from pressing the random button until the alt wins)

There's also another one where said person can even be like "Actually, this 1111 will be given to 10 people because there are so many participants so 1 + 10 + 50 + 100 blah blah" and all the winner from the 50 - 250$ part are the alts. 11$ for  thousands of page views. Werth.


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## Armaetus (Nov 21, 2013)

Ok what the hell now, I came across a PS4 raffle now..


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## Verin Asper (Nov 21, 2013)

Glaice said:


> Ok what the hell now, I came across a PS4 raffle now..


its the year of the Raffles


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## DarrylWolf (Nov 22, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> its the year of the Raffles



This has got to stop.


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## Zeitzbach (Nov 22, 2013)

Glaice said:


> Ok what the hell now, I came across a PS4 raffle now..



That one is amusing too.


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## Armaetus (Nov 29, 2013)

Any word or update regarding this?


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## Kalmor (Nov 29, 2013)

Glaice said:


> Any word or update regarding this?


Regarding what part exactly? If you're meaning when they'll announce who's won then they said it would be around christmas.

If you mean whether the raffle is allowed, well, the journals are still up so I guess that's a yes. If they do not deliver on the prize then my best guess is that they'll be banned.


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## Armaetus (Dec 12, 2013)

I just found out the guy doing the PS4 raffle cancelled it because his mom (who bought it and another PS4) found out he was gonna raffle it off to strangers (IE Joe Schmoe Furry on FA). Even people have the nerve to defend this idiot who pulled strings like this.


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## Kesteh (Dec 12, 2013)

It takes a certain kind of person to raffle off property that they don't own.


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## GreenReaper (Dec 12, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> It takes a certain kind of person to raffle off property that they don't own.


A foolish person, since they still owe the property (or its equivalent) to the winner.


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## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

I hope this makes it onto The People's Court (or possibly Judge Judy, but I don't like that as much)


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## drekian (Dec 12, 2013)

A raffle like the one he is holding is considered a lottery because he requires something called "consideration", meaning something he could benefit from, in return for an entry. He benefits from a watch/reblog, then it is a lottery. In the state he lives in, running a raffle without a license is a felony carrying 5 years and $20,000 in maximum fines. Running an illegal lottery I believe carries upwards of 20 years and $200,000 max. FurAffinity could be fined for hosting it as well. This is not to mention that any give away over $600 must be reported to the IRS, and furthermore, there are dozens of international laws not being followed.

Heh. :/


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 12, 2013)

hasn't this already been considered legal? do we need to keep arguing about it?


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## drekian (Dec 12, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> hasn't this already been considered legal? do we need to keep arguing about it?



It's not legal though. The laws that apply are based in the state where the raffle/contest poster lives. In regards to the 1,111$ raffle, in his state it is illegal for anyone except a non profit to run a raffle (even then they need a license). The raffle is considered a lottery because prescident has been previously set where bloggers have been convicted for illegal lotteries merely for requiring a follow. Doing either is a felony. Felony = not legal. :/


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## Pedigree (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm not really sure why anyone aside from people silly enough to enter even care, I guess the drama surrounding it is just too exciting to move on. Such a raffle cannot even be hosted on Furaffinity anymore.


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## Armaetus (Dec 13, 2013)

Teal said:


> What a loser.
> 
> Any word on the $1111 raffle?



None that I know of so far.


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## RemyFelis (Dec 13, 2013)

drekian said:


> It's not legal though. The laws that apply are based in the state where the raffle/contest poster lives. In regards to the 1,111$ raffle, in his state it is illegal for anyone except a non profit to run a raffle (even then they need a license). The raffle is considered a lottery because prescident has been previously set where bloggers have been convicted for illegal lotteries merely for requiring a follow. Doing either is a felony. Felony = not legal. :/




The problem is that too many people are taking this as a LITERAL raffle. By definition a Raffle is a type of lottery where one or more persons BUY a chance to win a prize. The only consideration for this raffle is to watch the account. Now considering the amount of time it takes to click the watch button and post your entry you're looking at roughly a $.05 USD investment ONLY. In TIME rather than monetary value. This is the ONLY "Consideration" and the Georgia gaming commission is going to look at this and just smile and call you an idiot for bringing it up to them. Because it's negligible. By the Georgia gaming commissions guidelines this falls under the category of a Giveaway and is in no way illegal.


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## zachhart12 (Dec 13, 2013)

I wish i knew who you guys are talking about o.o.


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## Haystack (Dec 13, 2013)

zachhart12 said:


> I wish i knew who you guys are talking about o.o.



check the first page of the conversation.  dude's name is mentioned at least once there.


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## Nanakisan (Dec 14, 2013)

drekian said:


> A raffle like the one he is holding is considered a lottery because he requires something called "consideration", meaning something he could benefit from, in return for an entry. He benefits from a watch/reblog, then it is a lottery. In the state he lives in, running a raffle without a license is a felony carrying 5 years and $20,000 in maximum fines. Running an illegal lottery I believe carries upwards of 20 years and $200,000 max. FurAffinity could be fined for hosting it as well. This is not to mention that any give away over $600 must be reported to the IRS, and furthermore, there are dozens of international laws not being followed.
> 
> Heh. :/



I was actually about ready to say exactly what you did. Props for pointing that out.

I look at like this. If this raffle is indeed illegal in his state. Then i personally give zero fucks. He made the choice to get in trouble. Now regarding its legality on FA however. I will push for the admins to reconsider this. If what Dreikan says is true. Then FA could face serious issues for hosting it. I feel the raffle should be shutdown and the user told to take it elsewhere. A ounce of prevention is as valuable as a pound of gold.


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## drekian (Dec 14, 2013)

RemyFelis said:


> The problem is that too many people are taking this as a LITERAL raffle. By definition a Raffle is a type of lottery where one or more persons BUY a chance to win a prize. The only consideration for this raffle is to watch the account. Now considering the amount of time it takes to click the watch button and post your entry you're looking at roughly a $.05 USD investment ONLY. In TIME rather than monetary value. This is the ONLY "Consideration" and the Georgia gaming commission is going to look at this and just smile and call you an idiot for bringing it up to them. Because it's negligible. By the Georgia gaming commissions guidelines this falls under the category of a Giveaway and is in no way illegal.



http://contests.about.com/od/sweepstakes101/p/whatarecontests.htm

Read this, a basic guide to consideration. Advertising and/or a follow is so important it has been set as a president previously that it is considered a lottery for a blogger to require a follow (and advertising the contest is further to that). Since he may not make any monetary gains off of this contest some lenience may be made, but there is still a high possibility of being sentenced over it. That doesn't change the fact that there are dozens of sweepstakes laws both locally and internationally that are not being followed including electronic sweepstakes being illegal in Georgia. (as of May 2012 I believe).

You're right though, legally speaking it is not a raffle because its not for fundraising purposes. Nonetheless, unfortunately, this type of generosity still isn't legal. Not to mention whether or not the person will follow through (easy enough to give the money to a fake account and make it seem right)

I honestly don't care that much about the entire thing, I'd just rather not see FA get in trouble, especially considering all of the other issues they've been having lately. :/


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't buy any of this. The guy got clearance from a LAWYER. If the lawyer's wrong then it's on him.


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## Armaetus (Dec 15, 2013)

He can just be saying that to cover his ass with a lie.


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## Kesteh (Dec 15, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> I don't buy any of this. The guy got clearance from a LAWYER. If the lawyer's wrong then it's on him.



People go on the internet and tell lies?


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> People go on the internet and tell lies?



Look, I'm not some naive moron who believes everything he reads on the Internet. But I'm also not some paranoid goofball who doesn't believe a single thing that seems slightly out of place.

Let me put it this way: FA in no way condones illegal activities and as of yet there has been no word from them saying anything about the raffle was illegal, nor have made the user take the raffle down or suspended his account or something.

Quite frankly, I'd rather get someone who knows about law involved, not just a few average schmucks who read up on Georgia law on the Internet.
My advice to you if you're so adamant that it's illegal, get the lawyer's name and number from Yurika or KrisPup and give him a ring.


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## KinkSlinks (Dec 15, 2013)

Sometimes I feel like people are trying to get him in trouble for such a weird reason, he's a 19 year old trying to give away money, and even though it sounds quite sketchy it still doesn't harm anyone in any way. If people are so intent on saying that its for watches, and they're watching as well, its just as easy to unwatch him. I feel like as soon as the winner is picked people will start to unwatch him, making the whole "paying for watchers" pointless. The one thing I have an issue with is that he has no set date for it to end.


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## Haystack (Dec 15, 2013)

the person offering this sweepstakes has said he's willing to let the winner redeem it as paid commissions from whatever artist(s), 
providing an option for a non-cash prize to circumvent any possible issues with granting a cash award.

if you're really interested, here's the text of the relevant bill passed in Georgia in 2012:
http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20112012/127907.pdf


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## RTDragon (Dec 15, 2013)

Yes but even if it's a non cash reward the issue is the amount of money for commissions in a raffle. Something like that is very suspicious and too good to be true.


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 15, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Yes but even if it's a non cash reward the issue is the amount of money for commissions in a raffle. Something like that is very suspicious and too good to be true.



...but it's not. obviously this guy's got a lot of money and he's used it to pay for extravagant commissions in the past.


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## RTDragon (Dec 27, 2013)

And yet from the second page from this thread he's been begging for free art. Something is really wrong with that since it comes off as really questionable.

Also that raffle seems to be ending soon from the journal standpoint.


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