# Trouble Ticket Issues



## feroaxes (May 3, 2010)

What is with the lack of response?  Complete ineffectiveness of the system.

Trouble Tickets I submit take on average, 2 weeks to be replied to, if at all.

I still have a trouble ticket un-replied to for 2 months.

On two that have replied to, nothing happened.

With one, the response was "User has been noted, thanks for reporting"
Here we are a full month after, and not only are the offending pictures still on the user's page, but the user uploaded even more pictures violating the AUP in the exact same way!

With another, the admin replied "The user has been noted on the upcoming changes to the AUP". 

Upcoming? I reported the user SEVEN MONTHS after the AUP was updated.  What's upcoming about that?

And once more, even after being "noted" the offending pictures are not only still in the user's gallery, but the user has continuously uploaded equally disallowed pictures!


Why is there so little response when opening TT's?  Why is the AUP only a suggestion?



If any admins read this, these are my current open TT numbers, dating as far back as 03/03/2010  (2 months ago!!!)

#13875
#13635
#13154
#13153 and
#12339


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## OxfordTweed (May 4, 2010)

My trouble tickets have always taken a few days at most to be reviewed. *shrug*


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## Dragoneer (May 4, 2010)

We're working in the queue and response time.

I believe _ "The user has been noted on the upcoming changes to the AUP" _would have been my response regarding Second Life as we're doing finishing touches on the new AUP right now, and it will go live rather soon. This touches a lot of things, and we want to give users a chance to take action on their end before blowing away their gallery with a "good day, sir!".


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## feroaxes (May 4, 2010)

I can understand noting a person so that they have an opportunity to remove offending pictures themselves, but merely noting then closing the ticket?

As I said, this person has failed to remove their offending pictures, a full month after the admin noted them.  But with the fact it was a closed ticket, no further action could be taken.  Even after I re-opened the ticket, no action was taken.


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## RTDragon (May 4, 2010)

Well you know i have a trouble ticket issue as well. Besides i'm sure there are far more improtant ones to sort out. besides i don't mine waiting for a response time.


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## feroaxes (May 5, 2010)

I don't mind a reasonable response time, but two full months is a bit... Excessive.

Plus the lack of enforcing the AUP that is already in place.


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## RTDragon (May 5, 2010)

Well that is true though i'm surprised people did'nt read the AUP.


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## feroaxes (May 5, 2010)

But even after this, I know at least one admin has commented on this thread, and who knows how many have read this thread...

And the TT of me reporting someone who has an avatar of an ejaculating penis (not even censored)   is still un-answered.


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## Irreverent (May 5, 2010)

feroaxes said:


> And the TT of me reporting someone who has an avatar of an ejaculating penis (not even censored)   is still un-answered.



I removed it this morning.  The response from the user was rather mirthful, as it appears that what you thought was an ejaculating penis is actually a gif made from an english-language pokemon cartoon aired in the US on children's tv.  One pokemon is performing the Heimlich maneuver on another and he's spraying water out of his mouth.

So by inference, the avatar IS pg-13 and compliant with the AUP/TOS.


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## feroaxes (May 5, 2010)

True, but in the context of "Whip it out!" there is little doubt what the user intended it to be percived as.

Edit:  
Er, if that's what he told you it was, he told the world another one.  He said in his journal it was a sword in the loin-cloth.

Yeah, I think it's exactly what it was percieved as.


That and ticket #13947 needs re-addressed.


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## RTDragon (May 6, 2010)

I see speaking of which. is it alright to add screencaps for evidence also as well as links cause i'm not sure if i made my trouble ticket detailed enough.

Though mine feroaxes was sent last month on the 24th of april.


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## Irreverent (May 6, 2010)

feroaxes said:


> True, but in the context of "Whip it out!" there is little doubt what the user intended it to be percived as.



We must be talking about different tickets, the user that had the water spurting dragon has two journals, and they are about commissions.



> Yeah, I think it's exactly what it was percieved as.



Sometimes the problem is more with the perceptor, n'est pas?



> That and ticket #13947 needs re-addressed.



Why?  You've reopened the ticket with no stated reason.  The avatar is NOT in his avatar gallery.  Perhaps its a local problem with your browser's cache?  You do need to hit F5 or Ctrl-F5 after an admin force-changes a users avatar. 



RTDragon said:


> I see speaking of which. is it alright to add screencaps for evidence also as well as links cause i'm not sure if i made my trouble ticket detailed enough.



By all means, please do.  The average ticket contains so little detail that it would be automatically rejected and closed by any professional helpdesk.  

"User xyz is underage..."  - and you know this how?

"User xyz has an inappropriate thumbnail" - Yeah, well (s)he also has 4000 submissions, can you narrow it down a bit?

"User xyz is tracing/stealing" - So, can you post links, or am I supposed to guess which image in a gallery of 40000 was traced and then grep all billion images on 4chan to figure out which on it is?

This is not directed at any one individual, some tickets (you can tell the ops guys) are quite informative and a pleasure to deal with.


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## feroaxes (May 6, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> Why?  You've reopened the ticket with no stated reason.  The avatar is NOT in his avatar gallery.  Perhaps its a local problem with your browser's cache?  You do need to hit F5 or Ctrl-F5 after an admin force-changes a users avatar.




Failfox failed me.   I repeatedly hit F5, with no avail.  Only after I cleared my history did it load the new avatar.

My apologies.


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## RTDragon (May 6, 2010)

Oh good Irreverent cause i just today added a second page with links also. Would you also like screencaps cause i have been waiting to use my portable firefox for this. I'll post some in my photobucket.

EDIT: Yup all done hope that is enough evidence by using the screengrabber.


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## CerbrusNL (May 6, 2010)

feroaxes said:


> Failfox failed me.   I repeatedly hit F5, with no avail.  Only after I cleared my history did it load the new avatar.
> 
> My apologies.


You could have pressed Ctrl+F5, that forces the browser to reload everything.
So, instead of Firefox failing, you seem to have failed reading Irreverents post (No offence)


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## feroaxes (May 6, 2010)

CerbrusNL said:


> You could have pressed Ctrl+F5, that forces the browser to reload everything.
> So, instead of Firefox failing, you seem to have failed reading Irreverents post (No offence)



It had already been resolved.  Offense definitely taken.

Plus, I did that.  And it still took me deleting my history for it to recognize the new avatar.

I'm not an idiot, just absent minded at times.

But you don't really need to throw your rude 2 cents into a conversation that is already resolved.

Especially with the fact that that post served no purpose than to try to make me look like an idiot.


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## RTDragon (May 6, 2010)

Well i'm yours is resolved feroaxes. All i have to do is just wait for my trouble ticket to resolve which i don't mind wating since there are tons of trouble tickets to sort out.


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## Irreverent (May 6, 2010)

feroaxes said:


> Failfox failed me.   I repeatedly hit F5, with no avail.  Only after I cleared my history did it load the new avatar.
> 
> My apologies.



No worries mate, it happens all the time, do it myself too.


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## Irreverent (May 6, 2010)

RTDragon said:


> Oh good Irreverent cause i just today added a second page with links also. Would you also like screencaps cause i have been waiting to use my portable firefox for this. I'll post some in my photobucket.
> 
> EDIT: Yup all done hope that is enough evidence by using the screengrabber.



Ticket number?  We have winnowed the back log down, but there are still quite a few.


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## RTDragon (May 6, 2010)

Ticket Number is #13632


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## Kayla-La (May 7, 2010)

I have a ticket open that should only take a few minutes to address, if somebody would like to take care of it. It's been open for a month or so now. Ticket number 12613. It's a pretty obvious case and won't take long.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 7, 2010)

Kayla-La said:


> I have a ticket open that should only take a few minutes to address, if somebody would like to take care of it. It's been open for a month or so now. Ticket number 12613. It's a pretty obvious case and won't take long.





feroaxes said:


> What is with the lack of response?  Complete ineffectiveness of the system.
> 
> Trouble Tickets I submit take on average, 2 weeks to be replied to, if at all.
> 
> I still have a trouble ticket un-replied to for 2 months.




Join the club. 

I've made journal posts and a forum post here with the same result:

Lip service that the problem is being worked on, while nothing is actually being done about it unless the problem is posted here on the forums, LIKE THE ORIGINAL WAY WE REPORTED THINGS.

So yeah. Looks like I'm not the only person that sees the problem here.

Also:

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1345311/

Seeing as CarenathZiroth rather make excuses and won't actually listen to the problem, I'll post it here for all to see.




> The trouble ticket system doesn't work as well as the old method.
> 
> The new method creates the problem of having to go through 10-100 or more trouble tickets for the same exact thing, wasting the time of the mod, and generally choking the trouble ticket system.
> 
> And I don't complain about things not being dealt with immediately. I complain about open trouble tickets that remain ignored for over one or even two or more months.



While I'm at it, My trouble ticket #13008, created on 3/31/10, is still open and unresolved. *AGAIN* I have an open trouble ticket that's been sitting there for over a month.

And yet admins think it fun to play around in the forums, like they did on April 18th, instead of taking care of a growing problem.

The title of "Admin" and/or "Moderator" should have some actual _responsibilities_, not just privileges.


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## Irreverent (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> While I'm at it, My trouble ticket #13008, created on 3/31/10, is still open and unresolved. *AGAIN* I have an open trouble ticket that's been sitting there for over a month.
> 
> And yet admins think it fun to play around in the forums, like they did on April 18th, instead of taking care of a growing problem.



So dealing with a relative minor infraction (in the ticket in question, the user wants to use a meme for his profile ID...the horror!) is more important than adding functionality to the site?  Since the 18th, we've added front page items, re-written the Notes interface, added several back-end servers for Ads, reducing operation costs and most recently added SSL authentication to the login screen.  The FA staff is deeply regretful that we didn't handle your OCD-driven ticket revolving around your vigilante "mall-cop" attitude regarding FA submissions in a timely fashion that satisfies your entitlement complex. 

While there are acknowledged limitations with the current trouble ticket reporting system, the bigger issue is an educational issue with the user community.   A third of the tickets are AUP reports for things that are either a) completely acceptable or b) grandfathered under a coming into force exclusion.  Hardly priority one stuff.  A third of the tickets are for bogus harassment issues ("Jonnyfox said nasty things about the use of the colour green in my opus work") which we really should just be closing out right.  "Grow a pair!"  And a third of the tickets are real harassment, ripped art, underage porn or serious violations or threats to the site that ARE being dealt with right away. 



> The title of "Admin" and/or "Moderator" should have some actual _responsibilities_, not just privileges.



The Admins and Mods take their responsibilities very seriously.  For an all-volunteer, unpaid crew, its one of the best I've had the pleasure of working with.  Since become an Admin, I've seen the current backlog reduced from years to about 60 days average.  That's a pretty enviable average for a paid  Enterprise help-desk.  And I know, because I've run several nationally.  The team focuses its attention on the serious tickets and threats to the site that are priority one tickets.   

Regardless of trouble ticket or reporting system used, lower priority tickets will be dealt with when time permits.  New Admins are coming on stream this quarter, that will certainly help.


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## quoting_mungo (May 8, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> b) grandfathered under a coming into force exclusion.


What do you mean by that? "We will be adding grandfather exceptions(?) into the AUP so therefore we don't enforce the current AUP" or "new entries matching this will not be allowed under the new AUP but old submissions will be grandfathered in" or something else entirely? I mean no ill by asking, I'm just really confused by that clause.


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## GraemeLion (May 8, 2010)

I suspect from reading Dragoneer's post to his FA Journal, that it was the second definition. That people who already have these things up do not need to worry about the FA secret police kicking down the door.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> The FA staff is deeply regretful that we didn't handle your OCD-driven ticket revolving around your vigilante "mall-cop" attitude regarding FA submissions in a timely fashion that satisfies your entitlement complex.



So, If someone complains that one of my submissions, that I PHOTOGRAPHED for a meme is removed THE SAME DAY I PUT IT UP it's a high priority, but the moment I report something that the user admits he did not create/photograph it's automatically OCD? Nice bit of hypocrisy there.




> Since the 18th, we've added front page items, re-written the Notes interface, added several back-end servers for Ads, reducing operation costs and most recently added SSL authentication to the login screen.



And wasted our time with useless features that we could have lived without, like embedding youtube on journals.

Oh, wait. That's right. Not all admins/mods code the site and/or work with the physical servers. That means that your little argument there doesn't mean squat unless you are trying to say that the entire staff has been working on this, which would indeed be a lie.

Your little excuse has a hole so big you could drive a truck right through it.




> While there are acknowledged limitations with the current trouble ticket reporting system, the bigger issue is an educational issue with the user community.   A third of the tickets are AUP reports for things that are either a) completely acceptable or b) grandfathered under a coming into force exclusion.  Hardly priority one stuff.  A third of the tickets are for bogus harassment issues ("Jonnyfox said nasty things about the use of the colour green in my opus work") which we really should just be closing out right.  "Grow a pair!"  And a third of the tickets are real harassment, ripped art, underage porn or serious violations or threats to the site that ARE being dealt with right away.




Which is why the old system worked better. Because in posting in the forums like we have to now to get anything done is exactly what we had before the whole thing was overcomplicated with the current system. Bogus claims were squashed out be other users pointing out the obvious, without needing staff to get involved. And more sensitive complaints were, and still are, PM'd to staff.

Again, your excuse has holes in it.



> The Admins and Mods take their responsibilities very seriously.



HA! I call bull on that right there. 

Admins/Mods have abused their powers on multiple occasions to further their personal vendettas. I'd give more examples, but they are ban-happy when someone brings it up. There are quite a few mods who abuse their powers, while ignoring the many problems with this site that have been created due to changing things that were not broken to begin with.



> I've seen the current backlog reduced from years to about 60 days average.



And yet, posting in the forums like we used to had a response time of an average of 1 to two weeks at the worst. Add to the fact that you are actually responding to something in the forums, instead of ignoring like you do the trouble tickets.


And again, all you are doing is giving lip service, giving excuses instead of actually dealing with the problem.

So, to recap:

* You are selective on what is important and what isn't, as you admit to it by for calling attention to a violation of the For You By You policy OCD, while at the same time deleting two of my submissions THE SAME DAY I UPLOAD IT because someone THOUGHT it violated the AUP.
* You claim that the Admins/Mods have been too busy coding the site, when it is known that not EVERY Admin/Mod actually does anything with site coding.
* You are trying to sound impressive on the backlog, even though it was far less before we were forced into the trouble ticket system.
* You fail to see the problem in the first place, that the Trouble Ticked system itself has caused more problem than solved.
* You are sticking up for corrupt Admins/Mods.

Well, that was very informative. Lip service, Lies, and Excuses.

Just what is expected.


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## AshleyAshes (May 8, 2010)

While were at it, the trouble ticket pulldown menu for 'issue' really needs a catagory for 'AUP Violation'.


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## Dragoneer (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> While I'm at it, My trouble ticket #13008, created on 3/31/10, is still open and unresolved. *AGAIN* I have an open trouble ticket that's been sitting there for over a month.
> 
> And yet admins think it fun to play around in the forums, like they did on April 18th, instead of taking care of a growing problem.


Here's a run down:
Damn near the entire administration team has jobs. We work 8 to 10 hours a day, do what we need to do. We come home, tired, then get onto FA and clean up issues ranging from people with no social skills unable to cope with the fact somebody doesn't like them, art thieves, entitlement queens, people who can't stand that other people exist on the site and a thousand other issues. Then, on top of that, we have to read forums, read notes, handle issues... and somehow, use other time we have to actually work on the site and plan new issues and discuss the things that need to get done.

There's a lot to do, and we're not a paid a fucking penny for any of it.

So unless you'd like to donate so we can hire somebody part time to handle the queue, then understand that we do get backlogged, there's a lot of things going on... while improving that response time is one of our priorities, there are at times a veritable tsunami of issues to handle.


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## Dragoneer (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> * You are selective on what is important and what isn't, as you admit to it by for calling attention to a violation of the For You By You policy OCD, while at the same time deleting two of my submissions THE SAME DAY I UPLOAD IT because someone THOUGHT it violated the AUP.
> * You claim that the Admins/Mods have been too busy coding the site, when it is known that not EVERY Admin/Mod actually does anything with site coding.
> * You are trying to sound impressive on the backlog, even though it was far less before we were forced into the trouble ticket system.
> * You fail to see the problem in the first place, that the Trouble Ticked system itself has caused more problem than solved.
> ...


If you don't like the service then you don't have to be here. If you think we're all a bunch of a liars and corrupt bastards, then leave. Go to another site. Go to Sofurry, Furocity or wherever else you think is better.

Get the fuck out.

Because if you're going to sit here and whine like this, then don't be surprised when we magically stop giving a shit about what you have to write and what issues you're having when you're sitting here holding a flame under the administration's ass like you have some sort of insider knowledge as to how horrible we supposedly are. There's a lot of crap that goes on behind the scenes, and we all sacrifice a lot over time to get where we are. We've improved tenfold over the past year alone, and I think that's visible on the site.

Nobody is holding you here, but if you REALLY WANT, I'll hold the door open for you so you can leave.


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## That_Vladimir_Guy (May 8, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> Here's a run down:
> Damn near the entire administration team has jobs. We work 8 to 10 hours a day, do what we need to do. We come home, tired, then get onto FA and clean up issues ranging from people with no social skills unable to cope with the fact somebody doesn't like them, art thieves, entitlement queens, people who can't stand that other people exist on the site and a thousand other issues. Then, on top of that, we have to read forums, read notes, handle issues... and somehow, use other time we have to actually work on the site and plan new issues and discuss the things that need to get done.
> 
> There's a lot to do, and we're not a paid a fucking penny for any of it.
> ...



You're assuming that redfoxnudetoons understands the concept of having a job.


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## Winter Tw Wolf (May 8, 2010)

That_Vladimir_Guy said:


> You're assuming that redfoxnudetoons understands the concept of having a job.



Or social skills. Or a basic grasp of how Admining works(I've a few small sites under my belt, and it can be a HEROIC undertaking to keep all the stuff in order...), really.


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## WarMocK (May 8, 2010)

That_Vladimir_Guy said:


> You're assuming that redfoxnudetoons understands the concept of having a job.


Come to think about the average age of FA(F) users, I have my doubt. ;-)
Seriously guys n girls: we all have jobs and a real life outside FA and the fandom. We do this job without payment, on our free time, and have to deal with tickets which are SO damn stupid that I sometimes simply would like to close them and give the TT starters a knock on the head until they managed to write a trouble ticket properly.
If you got tickets saying "user XYZ did something wrong", the vast majority of you would say "fuck it" and move on to the next one. But we need to go for them and hopefully figure out what the issue actually is. Now guess how long that will take with galleries containing a few dozen submissions ...


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## SkieFire (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> So, If someone complains that one of my submissions, that I PHOTOGRAPHED for a meme is removed THE SAME DAY I PUT IT UP it's a high priority, but the moment I report something that the user admits he did not create/photograph it's automatically OCD? Nice bit of hypocrisy there.



Ever think that an admin saw the image while browsing the site and removed it? Or do you want them to ignore AUP violations unless they have been flagged with a ticket?

Shouting about how admins are liars wont get any of your complaints, valid or otherwise, listened to. When your busy, you automatically drown out the noise. Right now you are noise. Become something else.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

This is ridiculous, and yet unfortunately part of being an admin/moderator of any group of considerable size. 

To come in here with legitimate complaints, voice your opinion, or even try to call out admins is, to a certain extent fine. However until you have been in the shoes of those that give up their time, effort, and money freely, and without compensation in volunteer of this site, and its community it is completely arrogant and selfish, and ungrateful to state that anyone is not doing enough in your estimation to get their duties done. 

You do not know what the admin staff has to go through in a given day. You do not know how many tickets get answered, how they are prioritized, or anything else. And you certainly do not know what is going on in each moderator and admin's personal lives that might limit the time available to spend on FA, nor how much they probably do sacrifice to spend more time here doing their jobs. To sit here and tell them they are not doing a good enough job by your standards is outrageous. Until you do their job, or similar, you have no room to talk. 

Try being a bit more polite and respectful of those who do this job willingly and without monetary compensation. It's a harder job than you think, and all they ask in return is a little acknowledgment and respect.


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## silvermane (May 8, 2010)

Though there are problems with FA (what website does not have problems) I always remind myself that despite those issues FA is run by people who volunteer and do not get paid. They have lives (or so I would hope) outside of the site. As such I expect there to be a little play in when issues will be ironed out. Patience is a virtue they say and it seems some people have none.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> There's a lot to do, and we're not a paid a fucking penny for any of it.



Which has been the point all along: The Trouble Ticket System does not work nearly as effective as the old method of posting it here in the forums. 
A point that is being repeatedly ignored, despite all your excuse making for why things don't get done.



Dragoneer said:


> If you think we're all a bunch of a liars and corrupt bastards



Never did I say _all_ Admins/Mods are corrupt. But there are a number who use their powers inappropriately and childishly ban anyone who questions them. And other Admin/Mods ignore this corrupt behavior that has been going on for a few years now.

This website used to be a very good website. But the current way to report has become more of a problem rather than a help.

You keep saying that there is too much work to be done, but when things were reported on the forums, not only did that eliminate tens to hundreds of duplicates, it also allowed for other users, without an Admin/Mod to do a thing, to tell the other user that it the report is a bogus claim. And for more sensitive issues, PMs would still work, because, as you say, you have to go through those before you even get to the trouble tickets.

Instead of justifying excuses, why don't we go back to the way it was before? Because, after all, as you so point out so painfully, you don't have time to check on a ticket system you created to supposedly make things simpler.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

If you can do better, than get up and code a better system for FA to use. If you think you can moderate or administrate better, then start up a community and do so. Otherwise, you have absolutely no room to talk, having no idea what goes into either of those roles.

And for goodness sake, learn to use the edit button and multiple quote tags.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

SkieFire said:


> Ever think that an admin saw the image while browsing the site and removed it?.



Which implies another point (which I have already stated!): Abuse of power. I made it quite clear that I took the photos in the submission details and they were removed anyway.


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## Dragoneer (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> You keep saying that there is too much work to be done, but when things were reported on the forums, not only did that eliminate tens to hundreds of duplicates, it also allowed for other users, without an Admin/Mod to do a thing, to tell the other user that it the report is a bogus claim. And for more sensitive issues, PMs would still work, because, as you say, you have to go through those before you even get to the trouble tickets.


Sending reports via PMs don't work except for in extreme cases, otherwise you end up like me getting 100PMs over the course of a weekend on top of everything else, your notes start to back up, and then you never get anything done. Which hurts too because the same person who notes you will not every other admin, so every single admin is working on the same issue and time is lost.

Forums? Didn't work, because the issues were open and people were using that as a basis for retaliation, and... well, not hard to explain why that didn't work.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Witchiebunny said:


> If you can do better, than get up and code a better system for FA to use. If you think you can moderate or administrate better, then start up a community and do so. Otherwise, you have absolutely no room to talk, having no idea what goes into either of those roles.



That's not the point though. The site was fine BEFORE coding the trouble ticket system.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> Sending reports via PMs don't work except for in extreme cases, otherwise you end up like me getting 100PMs over the course of a weekend on top of everything else, your notes start to back up, and then you never get anything done. Which hurts too because the same person who notes you will not every other admin, so every single admin is working on the same issue and time is lost.
> 
> Forums? Didn't work, because the issues were open and people were using that as a basis for retaliation, and... well, not hard to explain why that didn't work.



Worked better than the current system.

Because now we can't see what is going on with Mods/Admins and the abuse of power becomes easier to hide.

And the ability to ignore things becomes that much easier as well.


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## Dragoneer (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Because now we can't see what is going on with Mods/Admins and the abuse of power becomes easier to hide.


If you feel there's an abuse of power... let me know, I'll investigate it. We have nothing to gain by abusive admins. We've had a lot in the past, and even still... admins can take actions without a ticket or a journal, so I see no justification for your accusation.


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## Ricky (May 8, 2010)

If people stopped being such whiny faggots and crying every time they see a picture they don't like I'm sure the work load would drop by at least 70% :roll:


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> If you feel there's an abuse of power... let me know, I'll investigate it. We have nothing to gain by abusive admins. We've had a lot in the past, and even still... admins can take actions without a ticket or a journal, so I see no justification for your accusation.



As someone has even stated a few posts up, There isn't even a "AUP Violation" section to the Ticket System. AUP violations run in the thousands that even _I_ can see uploaded in just an hour of random browsing. And no action is taken there. Do I bother to create thousands of Trouble Tickets? No, because I know it will choke the system down. But that just proves to me that if an Admin/Mod sees the AUP violations (which they should be able to find easily enough if _I_ can find it, and I'm not on for very long most of the time), they do nothing about it.

Selective enforcement of site rules sounds like abuse of powers to me. But Fine. The next time I see it _directly_, I'll let you know but then again, pretty hard to actually see that. Add to that the fact that those who step forward about Admins/Mods abusing their power on this site have been known to end up getting a ban.

But that doesn't solve the problem of the trouble ticket system at present.



Ricky said:


> If people stopped being such whiny faggots and crying every time they see a picture they don't like I'm sure the work load would drop by at least 70% :roll:



Agreed. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's against the TOS and AUP. Which is why the forums were so handy. the Bawwwing over art they didn't like was on the forums, not choking the trouble ticket system.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Agreed. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's against the TOS and AUP. Which is why the forums were so handy. the Bawwwing over art they didn't like was on the forums, not choking the trouble ticket system.



And leading to retaliation against those doing the reporting when the submission was legitimately pulled. Right, that's so much better.


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## Ricky (May 8, 2010)

Witchiebunny said:


> And leading to retaliation against those doing the reporting when the submission was legitimately pulled. Right, that's so much better.



Again,

Less bitching = problem solved.


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## SkieFire (May 8, 2010)

Dragoneer said:


> Forums? Didn't work, because the issues were open and people were using that as a basis for retaliation, and... well, not hard to explain why that didn't work.



This may be a crazy and unpossible idea, but couldn't there be a forum that everyone can read, anyone can post in but only the admins and mods can see the names of people who posted? Everyone else just sees a thread posted by a nameless user, unless it is a mod or admin posting a reply.

That way its both transparent and anonymous for normal users, without the inherent risk of abuse that a truly anonymous system would bring.

But like you said, action can be taken by anyone anyway, so its not the be all and end all. But it would probably satisfy people more than the current system (Disclaimer: of which I have absolutely no knowledge of). And of course, forums are much less organised than a real ticket system.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

SkieFire said:


> This may be a crazy and unpossible idea, but couldn't there be a forum that everyone can read, anyone can post in but only the admins and mods can see the names of people who posted? Everyone else just sees a thread posted by a nameless user, unless it is a mod or admin posting a reply.
> 
> That way its both transparent and anonymous for normal users, without the inherent risk of abuse that a truly anonymous system would bring.
> 
> But like you said, action can be taken by anyone anyway, so its not the be all and end all. But it would probably satisfy people more than the current system (Disclaimer: of which I have absolutely no knowledge of)



I was just about to suggest something along those lines, but this idea sounds allot better than what I was thinking of. This would indeed be a better way of doing things than the current methods, by fixing what's broke while still keeping the idea behind the failed current system.


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## Irreverent (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> So, If someone complains that one of my submissions, that I PHOTOGRAPHED for a meme is removed THE SAME DAY I PUT IT UP it's a high priority, but the moment I report something that the user admits he did not create/photograph it's automatically OCD? Nice bit of hypocrisy there.



Ah, the root cause of your issue is revealed.  I assumed as much, but had already generalized the comment.    Some overworked and unpaid Admin sniped one of your photos.  Did you follow up?  Plead your case?  Appeal to a higher power?  I expect not, but I'm curious.



> And wasted our time with useless features that we could have lived without, like embedding youtube on journals.



Perhaps that's a feature that _you_ can live without, but the other 350k users on the site count too. Most of the Admin work is behind the scenes anyway.  The average user isn't concerned with RAIDS, DNS, load balancing, QoS or general enhancements to system stability and availability.  Amazingly, the bulk of the community likes a highly available, secure FA/FAF experience, even if it does mean that the odd mall-cop gets his minor infraction report trouble ticket de-prioritized.



> Not all admins/mods code the site and/or work with the physical servers.



Quite correct.  Nor are we all in the same time zone, or even in the same hemispheres.  This introduces logistics issues not experienced 5 years ago, when all FA Admins were in the same time zone.



> That means that your little argument there doesn't mean squat unless you are trying to say that the entire staff has been working on this, which would indeed be a lie.



Your inference is specious.  Some Admins work on servers, others on code, or process, policy, procedures, most all do work on trouble tickets as time permits.  Each contributing according to their skills, abilities and free time.



> Which is why the old system worked better. Because in posting in the forums like we have to now to get anything done is exactly what we had before the whole thing was overcomplicated with the current system. Bogus claims were squashed out be other users pointing out the obvious, without needing staff to get involved. And more sensitive complaints were, and still are, PM'd to staff.



The old system was before my time.  If it was forum based reporting it probably would not have scaled to the current volumes of users, traffic and trouble reporting.  The site and user-base has grown asymptotically over the last couple of years.



> Admins/Mods have abused their powers on multiple occasions to further their personal vendettas. I'd give more examples, but they are ban-happy when someone brings it up. There are quite a few mods who abuse their powers, while ignoring the many problems with this site that have been created due to changing things that were not broken to begin with.



The fact that we are having this discussion would seem to make a mockery of your statement.  Were it really the case, we'd have simply nuked your comments or banned you for being a malcontent.   



> Add to the fact that you are actually responding to something in the forums, instead of ignoring like you do the trouble tickets.



That we are in the process of reducing the backlog, while dealing with the daily influx of new tickets seems to suggest that we are not ignoring them at all.  Only dealing with them on a rationalized priority basis. 

So, to recap:


We do prioritize tickets and deal with them on a priority basis.
We do have specialization and division of labour between the Admins and the FAF mods.
We have a system in place that, while not perfect, is scaling with the increased load due to expansion of the user-base.
Additional enhancements to the TT system and additional Admin staff will be brought on to scale with user-base expansion.
The Admin (and FAF Mod team) continues to work with a high level of professionalism and a dedication to enhancing the FA/FAF experience.



> Lip service, Lies, and Excuses.
> 
> Just what is expected.



No, just demonstrable, repeatable, solid evidence that contradicts your jaded, cynical opinion.


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## That_Vladimir_Guy (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Which has been the point all along: The Trouble Ticket System does not work nearly as effective as the old method of posting it here in the forums.
> A point that is being repeatedly ignored, despite all your excuse making for why things don't get done.
> 
> 
> ...



Moderator corruption happens on every website. Good luck escaping that reality.


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## GraemeLion (May 8, 2010)

SkieFire said:


> This may be a crazy and unpossible idea, but couldn't there be a forum that everyone can read, anyone can post in but only the admins and mods can see the names of people who posted? Everyone else just sees a thread posted by a nameless user, unless it is a mod or admin posting a reply.
> 
> That way its both transparent and anonymous for normal users, without the inherent risk of abuse that a truly anonymous system would bring.
> 
> But like you said, action can be taken by anyone anyway, so its not the be all and end all. But it would probably satisfy people more than the current system (Disclaimer: of which I have absolutely no knowledge of). And of course, forums are much less organised than a real ticket system.



The problem with that logic is it'd require a major change to code for this forum software, and it doesn't solve a major problem that tech support people run into all the time in the corporate world.

I code professionally.  I do L4 developer / software engineer work with a fantastically expensive piece of software.  Every day, I have seven different ways cases come into me, and 4 (soon to be 3) places to record them. 

Setting up a forum to handle inbound cases doesn't change the number of cases.  It doesn't change the number of people handling the number of cases.  

All it does is present yet another place where people who are already time constrained and resource constrained have to go to do their job.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Irreverent said:


> Ah, the root cause of your issue is revealed.  I assumed as much, but had already generalized the comment.    Some overworked and unpaid Admin sniped one of your photos.  Did you follow up?  Plead your case?  Appeal to a higher power?  I expect not, but I'm curious.



Actually yes, I did. And it took a week for the admin to even apologize for NOT READING THE DESCRIPTION, stating that he took action and removed my two pics because a TROUBLE TICKET was made against my pics.

But that's not even remotely the point. The point is that the admin acted upon a trouble ticket instantly, and not with others of the same type. Meaning that those who go through are being selective in what they are going to enforce, and being selective in what trouble tickets they will even acknowledge. 




> Most of the Admin work is behind the scenes anyway.  The average user isn't concerned with RAIDS, DNS, load balancing, QoS or general enhancements to system stability and availability.



Only a woefully small amount of people work on that. I've seem many times staff saying that they do not have enough coders.



> The old system was before my time.



So, of course, you cannot make any comments on how things were, because, as you say, it was before your time.



> The fact that we are having this discussion would seem to make a mockery of your statement.  Were it really the case, we'd have simply nuked your comments or banned you for being a malcontent.



What you are saying there is a mute point. 'Neer has just admitted to problems with abusive Admins/Mods nine posts ago.




> That we are in the process of reducing the backlog, while dealing with the daily influx of new tickets seems to suggest that we are not ignoring them at all.  Only dealing with them on a rationalized priority basis.



And selectively ignoring what you choose. while going after others for the same thing you ignored someone else doing.



> So, to recap:



Yes, Lets.



> We do prioritize tickets and deal with them on a priority basis.



No, you choose to follow through on some tickets, while ignoring tickets of similar type.



> We do have specialization and division of labor between the Admins and the FAF mods.



And yet, most of the specialized work like site security and coding is done by a very small amount of people, as has been a staff excuse on why things don't get done.



> We have a system in place that, while not perfect, is scaling with the increased load due to expansion of the user-base.



No, you have a system in place that quite conveniently hides any problems at all, and can be ignored for all time with no one else seeing it, because it's all "behind the scenes" as you put it.



> Additional enhancements to the TT system and additional Admin staff will be brought on to scale with user-base expansion.



You're already WAY behind then. The problem of the trouble ticket system not working has been a issue from day one. 




> The Admin (and FAF Mod team) continues to work with a high level of professionalism and a dedication to enhancing the FA/FAF experience.



If that was the case, then there would be no problems with corruption, as 'Neer has already admitted to being a problem.

You can try and justify and excuse all you want, that doesn't change a simple fact: the trouble ticket system does not work.

SkieFire has presented a perfectly reasonable idea to solve the inherent problems with the current system, while actually taking into consideration for the reasons why the current system was implemented in the first place.

But, like everything else, will only be ignored, or at the very most played down as not being an option because of excuses and justifications that are nothing more than cop-outs for not addressing the problem at hand.


As for solid evidence, all I have is excuses and justifications. Last time I checked, that's not called solid evidence, that's called a cop-out.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

GraemeLion said:


> Setting up a forum to handle inbound cases doesn't change the number of cases.  It doesn't change the number of people handling the number of cases.
> 
> All it does is present yet another place where people who are already time constrained and resource constrained have to go to do their job.



Your right. It doesn't change the number of cases. but it does help staff by users being able to see that the problem has already been reported, show that the case is not valid, and other activities that can help relieve the staff of the number of cases.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons, you wont' accept ANYTHING the admins say as a valid and legitimate reason for anything. So why are you continuing this discussion? Seriously. Every time an admin says, flat out why something isn't viable, or can't be implemented as the suggestion is, you call it an excuse. 

Again, if you can do better, than do it. Otherwise, you have NO room to talk.


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## RTDragon (May 8, 2010)

You know it would be far easier if people actually posted decent evidence for the trouble tickets then we would'nt have all the bogus tickets in the first place.


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## GraemeLion (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Your right. It doesn't change the number of cases. but it does help staff by users being able to see that the problem has already been reported, show that the case is not valid, and other activities that can help relieve the staff of the number of cases.



I can assure you that the trouble ticket system works fine for legitimate cases.

As for other cases, about the only problem this admin staff has with it is not denying cases fast enough.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Witchiebunny said:


> redfoxnudetoons, you wont' accept ANYTHING the admins say as a valid and legitimate reason for anything. So why are you continuing this discussion? Seriously. Every time an admin says, flat out why something isn't viable, or can't be implemented as the suggestion is, you call it an excuse.



I will accept responses that actually resolve the problem, not excusing the problem. Handing out cop-outs is not going to solve anything.

The whole point I've been trying to make, and it has been ignored the entire time, is that the current system has too many faults and ways for staff to ignore the problems. 

It needs to be fixed, and those with the position to fix them should be doing so instead of justifying why they're ignoring the problem.



> Again, if you can do better, than do it. Otherwise, you have NO room to talk.


Seeing as I don't see you coming up as a Mod or Admin for the site, your words ring hollow.



GraemeLion said:


> I can assure you that the trouble ticket system works fine for legitimate cases.
> 
> As for other cases, about the only problem this admin staff has with it is not denying cases fast enough.



and yet, the OP had to post here in the forums that AUP violations are not being taken care of. Hell, my open ticket of an obvious AUP violation is still not taken care of.

So, nope. Your flat wrong there.

And as for assurances, I don't see you coming up as a Mod/Admin, so your assurances are worthless.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> I will accept responses that actually resolve the problem, not excusing the problem. Handing out cop-outs is not going to solve anything.
> 
> The whole point I've been trying to make, and it has been ignored the entire time, is that the current system has too many faults and ways for staff to ignore the problems.
> 
> ...



Right, because 2+ years of adminning a large scale furry gaming community AND forums mean nothing.


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## redfoxnudetoons (May 8, 2010)

Witchiebunny said:


> Right, because 2+ years of adminning a large scale furry gaming community AND forums mean nothing.



Yeah. It does mean nothing. Because we are talking about _Fur Affinity_. Not your gaming site.

Seeing as none of the admins/mods will actually listen to the problem and only justify themselves as to why they won't fix it, I'm done posting here in this thread.

There really isn't anything else to state, and the only suggestion to make things better will of course be ignored.

Because that's all that ever happens when this problem is brought up.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

So I obviously have no idea of the types of pressures and issues that come with adminning a large scale community, nor the ungratefulness that gets thrown their way by people like you who think that they have all the answers, and can see everything wrong but offer nothing at all in the way of constructive conversation or reasonable discourse. 

Right.


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## Carenath (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:
			
		

> But that's not even remotely the point. The point is that the admin acted upon a trouble ticket instantly, and not with others of the same type. Meaning that those who go through are being selective in what they are going to enforce, and being selective in what trouble tickets they will even acknowledge.
> 
> And selectively ignoring what you choose. while going after others for  the same thing you ignored someone else doing.


Cum hoc ergo propter hoc



redfoxnudetoons said:


> What you are saying there is a mute point. 'Neer has just admitted to problems with abusive Admins/Mods nine posts ago.


Argumentum ad verecundiam.



			
				redfoxnudetoons said:
			
		

> No, you choose to follow through on some tickets, while ignoring tickets of similar type.
> 
> Only a woefully small amount of people work on that. I've seem many  times staff saying that they do not have enough coders.
> 
> ...


Argumentum ad nauseum



			
				redfoxnudetoons said:
			
		

> You can try and justify and excuse all you want, that doesn't change a simple fact: the trouble ticket system does not work.





			
				redfoxnudetoons said:
			
		

> SkieFire has presented a perfectly reasonable idea to solve the inherent problems with the current system, while actually taking into consideration for the reasons why the current system was implemented in the first place.
> 
> But, like everything else, will only be ignored, or at the very most played down as not being an option because of excuses and justifications that are nothing more than cop-outs for not addressing the problem at hand.


Red Herring.



			
				redfoxnudetoons said:
			
		

> As for solid evidence, all I have is excuses and justifications. Last time I checked, that's not called solid evidence, that's called a cop-out.


Your ignorance knows no bounds, learn to form reasonable arguments based on facts and not assumptions you cannot prove, and in a civil manner at that.


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## GraemeLion (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Seeing as none of the admins/mods will actually listen to the problem and only justify themselves as to why they won't fix it, I'm done posting here in this thread.
> 
> There really isn't anything else to state, and the only suggestion to make things better will of course be ignored.
> 
> Because that's all that ever happens when this problem is brought up.



If you're simply going to bitch, I would suggest a simple ban might solve your problem.

And just for fun, I'm considering reporting half your gallery as TOS / AUP violations.


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## yak (May 8, 2010)

Allowing people to report site violations on the fora was helpful to a degree, I will agree with that.
However, having a consolidated helpdesk already brought and will bring enough benefits to outweigh the mix of positive feedback and induced harassment resulting from  that approach.

Reasons are the following:
* Accounting. Tickets on the mainsite are data, reports on the fora are text. Aggregating data in various ways allows for reporting and proper notification of activity on both the admin's and user's side of the problem. Allows for seeing admin activity and it's volume.
* Easy integration of problem reporting with the site, which is yet to come.
* Privacy. Reporters are not being ridiculed by the crowd, called whiners and being told to deal with it. There is no harassment of neither the reporters, nor the people that commited a - possibly mislabeled - violation.
* Two places to keep reports in increase the chance of an issue being overlooked, especially if the issue is of high priority. For example I don't "do" the fora, so I won't be able to see technical issues reported for the site until an admin notifies me.
* Requirement to sign up with the forum account and log in every time someone needs to report a problem. A very tiny minority of the mainsite visit the fora. Many don't even know we have it.


I consider consolidation of the helpdesk, users's privacy and convenience of reporting, notification on the ticket's updates and being able to estimate individual admin's input in dealing with the issues - a far greater set of features that outweigh the merits of allowing forum users to leave feedback on individual problems.

And no, having two places to report problems will not speed up their resolution. There is still a finite number of admins with a finite number of time they can devote to taking care of them. It will however remove the shade from some of the "behind the scenes" work that we do and will satisfy your desire to show how incompetent double faced people we are.


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## Irreverent (May 8, 2010)

SkieFire said:


> This may be a crazy and unpossible idea, but couldn't there be a forum that everyone can read, anyone can post in but only the admins and mods can see the names of people who posted? Everyone else just sees a thread posted by a nameless user, unless it is a mod or admin posting a reply.



While this approach might be possible within the construct of the vBulletin permissions system, it fails for the following reasons:

1. it requires all FA users to be FAF users too....most are not.
2. it  places additional load on the FAF server, database and indexes, likely requiring a  costly expansion of the platform to handle load.
3. unlike a standalone TT system, any ticketing system integrated with FAF will fail when FAF fails and will be offline until FAF is recovered.
4. a vBulletin system would require a complex system of forums and sub-forums for ticket segregation by type; with no ability for ticket queues and would rely on vBuletin's default sort for ticket aging
5. there's no escalations system beyond the basic private message system built into vBulletin.


In short, while such a system might work for a small community with a tiny, low volume user-base, a forum-based trouble ticketing system is deficient for FA in its present form.


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## Ben (May 8, 2010)

What absolutely kills me is, the admins are being incredibly polite and patient with redfoxnudetoons, and he's just being an absolute asshole.

There is absolutely no difference between the forum system of reporting posts, and the trouble ticket system, except that the trouble ticket system is more accessible. The only reason response times were lower back then is because

THE. SITE. WAS. SMALLER.

We already went through this the last time you complained about this. How you didn't retain any of that information is beyond me.


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## That_Vladimir_Guy (May 8, 2010)

Carenath said:


> *(Quotes and Latin terms go here)*
> Your ignorance knows no bounds, learn to form reasonable arguments based on facts and not assumptions you cannot prove, and in a civil manner at that.



I agree that the person in question is an idiot, but pointing out logical fallacies is usually a cop-out for when you can't argue your actual points well. If you wish, argue otherwise.


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## Takun (May 8, 2010)

Ben said:


> What absolutely kills me is, the admins are being incredibly polite and patient with redfoxnudetoons, and he's just being an absolute asshole.
> 
> There is absolutely no difference between the forum system of reporting posts, and the trouble ticket system, except that the trouble ticket system is more accessible. The only reason response times were lower back then is because
> 
> ...




The site was smaller AND the AUP didn't cover as much.


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## Ben (May 8, 2010)

Takun said:


> The site was smaller AND the AUP didn't cover as much.



And because his pea-brain probably won't understand what you mean by that:

AUP covering less = Less things that are reported.



You just keep spouting the same thing over and over ("OH THE OLD SYSTEM WAS BETTER DOWN WITH THE MAN"), without giving any good reason as to why this is the case.

I strongly emplore you to stop caring so much about the politics of a furry site, turn off the computer, get friends, get a job, do something meaningful with your life. And perhaps I'm just assuming that you lack any of these things, but from the way you act, it sure as hell sounds accurate.


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## Aden (May 8, 2010)

If this nudefoxtoonswhateverfuck guy isn't listening to anything we're saying, let's just stop addressing him.


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## Witchiebunny (May 8, 2010)

Are the personal attacks really necessary at this point? He's left the thread by his own admission, let's let this argument die.


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## Ben (May 8, 2010)

Witchiebunny said:


> Are the personal attacks really necessary at this point? He's left the thread by his own admission, let's let this argument die.



I think it's just the general frustration of watching someone be a complete jackass to people who are being understanding and patient with him. You're right though.


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## Dragoneer (May 8, 2010)

Locking thread for decency reasons.


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## Irreverent (May 8, 2010)

redfoxnudetoons said:


> Actually yes, I did. And it took a week for the admin to even apologize for NOT READING THE DESCRIPTION, stating that he took action and removed my two pics because a TROUBLE TICKET was made against my pics.



Interesting. 



> Meaning that those who go through are being selective in what they are going to enforce, and being selective in what trouble tickets they will even acknowledge.



What you insist is willful blindness, we call prioritization.  There are always those that will insist it is their right to have a splinter removed while a heart-attack victim waits their turn in queue.  Fortunately, neither hospital emergency rooms or trouble ticket management systems work this way.  Its called triage and we'll have to agree to disagree that its better than a first-in, first out system. 



> Only a woefully small amount of people work on that. I've seem many times staff saying that they do not have enough coders.



While true, coding and code related issues are a small part of the overall trouble reports.



> So, of course, you cannot make any comments on how things were, because, as you say, it was before your time.



 I'll concede that I wasn't around for the earlier days, when FA/FAF was a small, low volume, nascent site.   This in no way invalidates my experience with ITIL and sound service desk design. 



> What you are saying there is a mute point. 'Neer has just admitted to problems with abusive Admins/Mods nine posts ago.



No, he did not.  He did allude to problems in the past, but no current issues.  He also explained the appeal procedure and that Admins can act preemptively without an actual trouble ticket.



> You can try and justify and excuse all you want, that doesn't change a simple fact: the trouble ticket system does not work.



I think we'll have to agree that any system except yours (which has no basis in ITIL Service Desk methodology) will simply not be acceptable to you and move on.



> SkieFire has presented a perfectly reasonable idea to solve the inherent problems with the current system, while actually taking into consideration for the reasons why the current system was implemented in the first place.



Skiefire's system has been evaluated and properly rejected as insufficient for a site of this size and volume. 




> As for solid evidence, all I have is excuses and justifications. Last time I checked, that's not called solid evidence, that's called a cop-out.



Asked and answered.  I think we'll have to agree that any system except yours will simply not be acceptable to you and move on.


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