# Made an entire account here to say that the new species browse list is terrible



## Dr.SPECTRE (Nov 8, 2021)

The old one was monumentally more simple: organized everything by what type of species it was. Equine, Bovine, Candid, Feline, Mythological, Primate, Reptile, Avian, whatever. Did you have an "other" species that didnt quite fit the species listed but still should be grouped near them? That's okay, cause the "Other" option was included right next to the main options in the main category.

Now, there's only 5 categories _total_ ("General", Mythological, Video Games, Fandom Creations, and Animal Kingdom), and things are considerably more time consuming to find. Remember when Eastern, Water, and Western Dragons were side by side one another in this neat little "Dragons and Serpents" subcategory? Now they're at complete opposite ends of the mythological list with dozens of unrelated species sandwhiched between them. Heaven forbid you're interested in both Eastern and Western dragons, cause boy do you got a lot of scrolling now if you just wanna casually flip between the two. Oh, and that "Other" option? Sandwiched at the very very top under "General". Lots more scrolling, lots more searching.

And you may ask, what happened to "Serpent Dragon"? Oh you know; it's hanging out down in the Animal Kingdom for some reason. Cause yeah; Sea Serpents apparently exist now!
And heaven forbid you have dyslexia and are interested in any species that starts with a "Ch" in the animal kingdom. To those unfortunate members out there, I salute you in empathy.
And another question, what the hell is the difference between "Mammal - Feline" and "Feline (Other)" ? Can something be a feline without being a mammal?

Oh and dont even get me started if you want to just browse domesticated cats or dogs. Those options are now so all over the place, it boggles the mind.

All in all, change it back, please. This was kind of dumb. Mini rant over.

EDIT FOR CLARITY:

Not complaining about the new species added. That's fine. This is complaining about the poor organization of the new list.


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## Deceit2364 (Nov 9, 2021)

I really do like having a lot more granularity in species, think that's great, but I really dislike, in addition to what you mentioned, the fact that you can't select multiple species at the same time, that would really help with general browsing. Especially before everyone moves their art to the new categories (which they probably won't all do), there's no good way to make sure you're browsing _all_ of a certain species/category, other than going through each one individually. 
tl;dr, please allow select all of a category and multiple species at the same time.


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## PercyD (Nov 9, 2021)

Really?
All the problems in FA and they started on a species sorting list that nobody asked to be changed. Okay.


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## Deceit2364 (Nov 9, 2021)

Yeah... hopefully they'll at least make the change useful.


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## quoting_mungo (Nov 10, 2021)

PercyD said:


> Really?
> All the problems in FA and they started on a species sorting list that nobody asked to be changed. Okay.


Requests to add X species to the list and/or questions about why Y species isn’t there already aren’t exactly an uncommon occurrence on the forums, so I wouldn’t say “nobody asked” for a change. It might not be exactly the change they had in mind, but it’s not as out the left field as you seem to be making it out to be.

Not commenting on the update itself as such since I’ve not been uploading and that’s really the only time I touch it. Just saying species list updates have a history of coming up as requests pretty regularly. For all we know, since there wasn’t a newspost to go with the update (yet?), it could also be a part of bigger under-the-hood changes. If it means coders don’t need to be involved in adding to the list, for instance, it could be a net win in the longer term, once initial kinks are worked out.


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## PercyD (Nov 10, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> If it means coders don’t need to be involved in adding to the list, for instance, it could be a net win in the longer term, once initial kinks are worked out.


Its not a net win if I spend 10 minutes chasing after dragons since they've scattered them all over the place, lol.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Nov 10, 2021)

Eastern "Dragons" are totally unrelated to the likes of Smaug, Saphira, and Alduin. I don't see a problem with the change.


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## PercyD (Nov 10, 2021)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Eastern "Dragons" are totally unrelated to the likes of Smaug, Saphira, and Alduin. I don't see a problem with the change.


Bruh bruh. Dragons are dragons.
Put all the dragons in category and then designate what they are. But if I'm chasing dragons around different genres, that aint it. It's a furry site first, and the purpose is to sort species.


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## The_biscuits_532 (Nov 10, 2021)

Aight I covered the issues with the old list, so I went and did some nitpicking again


> - Airborne Vehicle could just be lumped in with the other robot category. It doesn't need to be distinct.
> - Why is there a Vulpine (other) and Fox (other)? They aren't synonymous, but Fox includes every species in the tribe Vulpini
> - Aeromorph is mecha again! Why is it distinct from Airborne Vehicle AND the other robots?
> - Dutch Angel Dragons are explicitly a Dragon species. I get why they're in the open species section, but they could just be posted under Dragons.
> ...


For the record, the issues I noted with the old one where as follows


> - Crows are included, but so are their parent family, Corvidae/ Corvids. Just use the latter, it's more inclusive.
> - Bears get their own segment but you aren't given a choice of which bear.
> - Camelidae/ Camelids get their own segement despite being rare and only containing two really distinct groups, Camels and Llamas
> - Domestic Dogs are given their own option, but so are specific breeds
> ...


To summarise, there is a lot with the new one I like. It certainly has more choices, but the layout is atrocious and needs work, and it still has a number of the issues the old one did.


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## Nexus Cabler (Nov 10, 2021)

I actually appreciate that Furaffinity is recognizing unique categories of species and distinguishing them. It's something I appreciate because many sona's are meant to reflect personalization, and can involve important spiritual, literature, and cultural depths behind them.

With that said, for a fandom that's for celebrating individuality and diversity, it's funny seeing a comment like 'All you dragons are the same to me, I don't care' lol.


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 10, 2021)

Nexus Cabler said:


> I actually appreciate that Furaffinity is recognizing unique species and distinguishing them. It's something I appreciate because many sona's are meant to reflect personalization, and can involve important spiritual, literature, and cultural depths behind them.
> 
> That said, for a fandom that's for celebrating individuality and diversity, it's ironic seeing a  "All you dragons are the same to me, I don't care, lol" comment.


Yeah I'm kind of doing a double-take at that esp when their avatar _looks_ like "oh, another nondescript canid"


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## TyraWadman (Nov 10, 2021)

Categories and species is just tags with extra steps


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## The_biscuits_532 (Nov 10, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Categories and species is just tags with extra steps


give us a proper tagging system FA, you cowards

I haven't used Esix enough to know how their G O D L Y system works, but I'm guessing when you start typing them, they give suggestions, or merge similar tags (so, for example, M/F = F/M)


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## Ennui Elemental (Nov 10, 2021)

The_biscuits_532 said:


> give us a proper tagging system FA, you cowards
> 
> I haven't used Esix enough to know how their G O D L Y system works, but I'm guessing when you start typing them, they give suggestions, or merge similar tags (so, for example, M/F = F/M)


yes

they also alias multiple things to a single tag so one person who knows it as one thing and another who knows it another way but are both looking for the same thing will both find it

and you can attach implications to tags (e.g. "ahegao implicates looking_pleasured")

like, the biggest issue I foresee with proper tagging on FA is the enforcement part, rolling it out will be hard, enforcing it will be a pain because only uploaders can apply tags

There are OTHER issues, like the scraps system and how much of a genuine liability that can be, the disappearance of "by you for you" in favor of DMCA and all the issues adjacent to that


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## Lutro (Nov 11, 2021)

This forum post is how I learned of this update. My biased take is I like it because it features a couple species I post for, that weren't previously available.

I echo the sentiment/wish that you could select multiple, though. Just like with the "multiple characters" option in the other dropdown, it feels like this is just a way to tag a submitted work, but is limited in that you can only select one. If you have more than one character in a work, you can only select one species instead of choosing all the ones that fit the work, etc.

Still, off the cuff I'd call it an improvement. For those wanting to navigate it, note you can start typing the species you're looking for (e.g. click the dropdown and type "yos" for "yoshi" and it'll jump down there). Should help mitigate (maybe?) some of the issues some are pointing out here, as far as browsing/submitting is concerned anyway.


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## RashidaVixen (Nov 11, 2021)

Dr.SPECTRE said:


> The old one was monumentally more simple: organized everything by what type of species it was. Equine, Bovine, Candid, Feline, Mythological, Primate, Reptile, Avian, whatever. Did you have an "other" species that didnt quite fit the species listed but still should be grouped near them? That's okay, cause the "Other" option was included right next to the main options in the main category.
> 
> Now, there's only 5 categories _total_ ("General", Mythological, Video Games, Fandom Creations, and Animal Kingdom), and things are considerably more time consuming to find. Remember when Eastern, Water, and Western Dragons were side by side one another in this neat little "Dragons and Serpents" subcategory? Now they're at complete opposite ends of the mythological list with dozens of unrelated species sandwhiched between them. Heaven forbid you're interested in both Eastern and Western dragons, cause boy do you got a lot of scrolling now if you just wanna casually flip between the two. Oh, and that "Other" option? Sandwiched at the very very top under "General". Lots more scrolling, lots more searching.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm glad that they added new species, but I don't like that they got rid of the categories (reptiles, mammals, aquatic etc)
It makes it harder to find your species.


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## Lutro (Nov 11, 2021)

RashidaVixen said:


> Yeah, I'm glad that they added new species, but I don't like that they got rid of the categories (reptiles, mammals, aquatic etc)
> It makes it harder to find your species.


What might help is clicking the dropdown, then starting to type the species. It should jump to what you're typing. May help you out.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Nov 11, 2021)

Tanukis are no longer a mythical creature and are now actually part of the animal kingdom.
This is a big step for the tanuki uprising.


I may not use the list a whole lot considering I commission certain characters of mine so finding a raccoon or a maned wolf is fairly easy... Although they really did water down the categories, not sure the reasoning for it.


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## Dr.SPECTRE (Nov 12, 2021)

Made an edit up top to clarify, but I'll make a comment as well.

This is not complaining about the news species added in general. Those are fine (aside from maybe the duplicate options that now exist, like "Mammal - Feline" and "Feline (Other)" ). This is complaining about how poorly organized everything is. It's true you can type the species you're looking for, and that is indeed useful. However, I still argue that it would be far more useful to subcategorize everything, especially considering you can't do the "type the species" trick on mobile devices.



Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Eastern "Dragons" are totally unrelated to the likes of Smaug, Saphira, and Alduin. I don't see a problem with the change.



You misunderstand. Previously, they were still separated from each other with distinct "Eastern Dragon" and "Western Dragon" labels. However, they were also lumped together in one big "Dragons" subcategory, ensuring they were next to each other along with all the other dragons like "Hydra" and "Serpent Dragon". Now, all 4 options are thrown all over the place, the former 3 being in "Mythological", and the latter 1 being in "Animal Kingdom" for some reason.


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## Frank Gulotta (Nov 12, 2021)

LOL saw that, now the first choice for species is "airborne vehicle"

I told them months ago that 13 year old users are confronted with all types of sexual fetish categories before they can find such basic, safe for work stuff as "general furry art" or "pokemon" and they told me they would look into it. But obviously having airborne vehicles as a choice of species was more urgent


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## Lutro (Nov 12, 2021)

I'd love to volunteer a bit of time to turn that dropdown into a combobox (dropdown, but you can start typing to filter the list). Could maybe make an extension I suppose, but I dunno.

That way regardless of how they decide to organize it, you can filter the list down.

(Also you should still be able to select more than one, but that understandably would take backend updates.)


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## Stratelier (Nov 13, 2021)

Lutro said:


> I'd love to volunteer a bit of time to turn that dropdown into a combobox (dropdown, but you can start typing to filter the list). Could maybe make an extension I suppose, but I dunno.


Yes yes YES.  I like the new list format overall, but it is just TOO BIG for a simple dropdown now.

(For comparison, Fanart Central once had a heirarchial category tree with _over 2,000 entries_ presented as a single flat list, which was a MASSIVE pain to navigate and prone to all kinds of user error and misclicks, not to mention relatively long to load into every page that needed it. It was later changed to a listbox scripted to only list one layer at a time, like when navigating your filesystem.)

FA now has -- let me count -- *384 species* across *5* headings (previously *143* species across *21* headings). Not only has the raw species count more than doubled, but the narrower range of headings mean the perception of that size (especially on small-screen mobile browsers) is worse off.

My other feedback:
- If FA staff don't already have a mod tool to *edit submissions in bulk* (e.g. set type/Theme/Species/Gender, content rating, etc.) then you need to build one. It doesn't take (relatively) long to code, and will be worth it in the long run when you make sweeping structural changes to things like this, or go around fixing large-scale miscats or mislabels by users (reported or discovered alike).
- If possible, add *multiple entries sharing the same internal species code.*  E.g. generic "Fox (other)" vs. "Vulpine (other)".  This would absolutely fix the OP's first criticism and do so _without_ needing to actually expand the listbox.
- "Dog (other)" should probably be *"Dog (other domestic)"* because, generally, wild species are known by their proper name first and only domesticated breeds/mutts get the "dog" label. This can also help draw a line between it and the similar label "Canine (other)".
- "Dragonborn", "Drow", "Tiefling" and "Displacer Beast" all belong under "Games/Media" NOT "Mythology" because they are _*copyrighted creations*_ and NOT public domain. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't D&D) There's _a reason™_ everyone else calls them "dark elves" ....
- Likewise, "Hobbit" technically belongs under "Games/Media".  Yes the concept of a race of "little people" IS mythological but the term "Hobbit" (and its associations) was indeed coined by *Tolkein*.
- Tweak "Dragonborn" as "Dragonborn *(D&D)*" to avoid confusion with a certain _other_ RPG using this name for a completely different thing.
- Similarly, *label more "Games/Media"-based species with the IP they belong to,* e.g. "Tauren (WoW)", "Deathclaw (Fallout)", Hrothgar (FF XIV)", and "Bubble Bobble Dragon" (not just "Bubble" Dragon).  I understand this is not _strictly_ mandatory as the rule of thumb is largely "don't use it if you don't know what it is" but it will still help people identify them (especially Hrothgar!), you're not exactly writing Wiki articles here, and I definitely see some miscats that need fixing (e.g. what's a Monster Hunter Mizutsune doing under 'Bubble Dragon'? Yes it is officially the "bubble fox wyvern" but that's not what this label means)
- Gotta agree that "Serpent Dragon" and "Water Dragon" feel *VERY prone to misuse* going forward.  Bearded and Komodo are the only varieties of "dragon" that truly belong under "Animal Kingdom" AFAIK, any other dragon is _by definition_ either Mythology, Games/Media, or Fandom based.
- If FA legitimately needs to include "rubber forehead" species like the "Asari" in an officiated list then WHERE ARE THE BLOODY KLINGONS!?  (Okay, this one's a joke criticism ... well, mostly.  Consider that FA Search returns 500+ hits for "Klingon" and 2700+ for "Vulcan", vs. only 1800 hits for "Peryton" and only 200 for "Hanar".  Where do you draw the line between the intended design vision vs. actual usage?)

(And ask me to cite my sources if you want. I dare you.)


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## MattsyKun (Nov 13, 2021)

Hey, I'm just happy to be able to label myself as Kitsune and not "fox (other)" Because that was very sad. I only noticed the list had changed because my ref removed my Tanuki tag and put it under "Canine (Other)" And I was VERY confused (or, I mislabeled him, that's very possible, too)

That being said, boy howdy if it was just organized a bit better! I miss the old headings system (though I do like the Fandom Species heading, that's very cool).


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## Stratelier (Nov 13, 2021)

For the interested, here's all the newly added species:



			
				New to Species List 3.0 said:
			
		

> Airborne Vehicle
> Hybrid Species
> Land Vehicle
> Robot / Android / Cyborg
> ...


_Source:_ Species entries are enumerated by an ID code consistent with the previous update to this list.  Species IDs ending in -000 are mostly the "generic/other" entries (3000=Avian generic, 4000=Dragon generic, etc.) and are manually sorted at the top of the listbox for easy access; newly added species have values starting at 10000 and are contiguous within their group (12000=Mythology specific, 12002=Centaur, 12003=Cerberus, etc).

FYI, the original Species Listbox (e.g. in 2009) had *55* entries across *6* headings.

Okay, now that I got the brunt of my feedback vented, time for some ripostes:


Lutro said:


> For those wanting to navigate it, note you can start typing the species you're looking for (e.g. click the dropdown and type "yos" for "yoshi" and it'll jump down there).


This is stock behavior for most list interfaces in general, but it only skips down to the next item starting with that letter and doesn't check for multiple words (e.g. "F" can only find "Fox (other)" and not "Red Fox", and "L" will never find "Lycanthrope" because it's "Werewolf / Lycanthrope").



TyraWadman said:


> Categories and species is just tags with extra steps


...AND _already functionally implemented_ on the main "Browse" page_._ Species/etc. fields are NOT indexed in FA's Search function so until the two systems get consolidated somehow, you need to duplicate your Species selection as a Keyword or you won't be able to find it in both places. (For example - this piece will not appear under _any_ search query for "Lion")


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## Stray Cat Terry (Nov 14, 2021)

Stratelier said:


> This is stock behavior for most list interfaces in general, but it only skips down to the next item starting with that letter and doesn't check for multiple words (e.g. "F" can only find "Fox (other)" and not "Red Fox", and "L" will never find "Lycanthrope" because it's "Werewolf / Lycanthrope").



I wholeheartedly agree that this needs to be handled!


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## Lutro (Nov 14, 2021)

Stratelier said:


> This is stock behavior for most list interfaces in general, but it only skips down to the next item starting with that letter and doesn't check for multiple words (e.g. "F" can only find "Fox (other)" and not "Red Fox", and "L" will never find "Lycanthrope" because it's "Werewolf / Lycanthrope").


Yep, I agree. It's an out-of-the-box feature for dropdowns in basically every web browser. Also as you correctly point out, it's not something that completely mitigates the issue. (At best you'll eventually memorize that it's Red Fox, so you type "red"; but it's not a true type-ahead "search anywhere in the string for what I'm typing" sort of affair.)


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## Foxridley (Nov 14, 2021)

I am glad of the new species, especially since I have a few kitsune OCs, but the organization of it leaves a lot to be desired.
And until FA ads a way of tagging multiple species, a "multiple species" tag would be a decent placeholder.


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## Dragoneer (Nov 20, 2021)

huantian said:


> I really do like having a lot more granularity in species, think that's great, but I really dislike, in addition to what you mentioned, the fact that you can't select multiple species at the same time, that would really help with general browsing. Especially before everyone moves their art to the new categories (which they probably won't all do), there's no good way to make sure you're browsing _all_ of a certain species/category, other than going through each one individually.
> tl;dr, please allow select all of a category and multiple species at the same time.


Selecting multiple species will come later.

Additionally, we understand the species list is not ideal. Short term, this will help people better categorize some of our pictures until we can get more dev time into our long term plans, tag and block.


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