# Do you buy furry novels? Why not, or which ones?



## Rechan (Jun 19, 2011)

This is a forum for people looking to write. But I'm wondering if the writers here purchase published works by other furry authors.

If you do, which ones have you bought? 

If you don't, why not?


----------



## Aden (Jun 19, 2011)

Nope. I have not seen any compelling novel output from furry authors. All I hear about is Kyell Gold-esque bullshit that I don't care about.

Though I'm not really looking in the first place


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jun 19, 2011)

Hi Rechan.
Not yet, but I will once I start getting paychecks.  There are certain authors I feel a need to experience for myself, and some I think it would be nice to give a little extra support.  But right now I'm seeping money by renting without a steady income, so buying books and other forms of entertainment isn't a good idea.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jun 19, 2011)

Agreeing with Aden up there. Although I did buy two copies of Poetigress' latest work (which I haven't read yet c.c). But that's a short story.


----------



## duroc (Jun 19, 2011)

I've bought quite a few, including fandom books Different Worlds, Different Skins volumes 1 & 2, the four volumes of New Fables, ROAR Vol. 1 & 2, Out of Position, Isolation Play, Common and Precious, Shadows in Snow, Stories from New Tibet, Alone in the Dark, & Tales from the Fur Side. I've also bought more mainstream books like Ratha's Creature and Forests of the Night.

I'm currently trying to get caught up on my reading, but I plan to purchase ROAR Vol. 3, Piggy Moto, Bait and Switch, and Smiley and the Hero.

I'll be honest in that I tend to steer away from a lot of the erotic books within the fandom, simply because there are so many of them out there (to the point where it feels like the market is saturated) and in most cases, the adult elements tend to be unnecessary. But that is a personal opinion. I bought Out of Position and Isolation Play because they peeked my football curiosity more so than the erotic elements (and I'm probably very alone on that purchasing criteria island).


----------



## Deo (Jun 19, 2011)

Fuck no. 
I like to read literature, not shit.


----------



## â™¥Mirandaâ™¥ (Jun 19, 2011)

My boyfriend sent me his copy of "Waterways" and that just kind of turned me off of furry literature.


----------



## Aden (Jun 20, 2011)

Tybalt Maxwell said:


> My boyfriend sent me his copy of "Waterways" and that just kind of turned me off of furry literature.


 
To the google!



> Waterways is an anthropomorphic novel by Kyell Gold, published by Sofawolf Press and first released at Further Confusion 2008. It won the 2008 Ursa Major Award for Best Novel.
> 
> The novel contains Kyell's popular stories from Yiffstar, Aquifers and Streams, as well as a previously-unpublished third section, Oceans. The story concerns the life of Kory, a teenage otter in his first gay relationship, with a black fox named Samaki. The book covers the themes of coming out, religious views on sexuality, and the troubles faced by gay youth.



_so typical it hurts_
\my first post seems to be dead on so far


----------



## Conker (Jun 20, 2011)

While I'm sure there are some pretty good authors in the fandom, I do not want to read anything directly "furry." I recall having fun with the _Redwall_ books when I was younger, but those weren't by furries for furries.

I'll stick to...things I know will be of a high quality.


----------



## epslion (Jun 20, 2011)

well im not sure if the authors a furry 
the book i read of her is very furry novel if you ask me 
its called the wolf prince 

yes i read romance novels

not that twilght sparkly vampire crap


----------



## Fenrari (Jun 20, 2011)

I buy every year's Heat, but that's usually because I know one or 2 of the artists/authors personally. Other than that no, not really... All of them are available online if you look for them.


----------



## skyler-the-fox (Jun 20, 2011)

I have bought a book, that is not necessarily "Furry" but it is an amazing book about wolves, and fox's and other animals, it is REALLY well written, it's called "Wolves of the Beyond Pack" I recommend it, it's really heart warming.


----------



## Conker (Jun 20, 2011)

epslion said:


> well im not sure if the authors a furry
> *the book i read of her is very furry novel if you ask me
> its called the wolf prince *
> 
> ...


I see contradictions.


----------



## Browder (Jun 20, 2011)

Not unless you count Watership  Down, Animal Farm, Firebringer, The Sight etc. as furry.

I did buy and read this a long time ago though. Pretty sure the author doesn't know anything about the fandom but it counts.


----------



## sunandshadow (Jun 20, 2011)

I personally consider anthro aliens to be furries, and I've bought dozens of books involving them.  Similarly, I've bought books about centaurs, were-animals of various sorts, elf-wolf hybrids, intelligent dragons, and there were at least a few in there which involved uplifted animals (the most literal occurrence of furries but not my favorite).

Mostly I buy the ones marketed as science fiction or fantasy erotic romance novels.


----------



## Alstor (Jun 20, 2011)

Unless the author is a credible professional who realizes that the furryism has to be integrated into the story's moral or plot, I would be way too embarrassed to purchase it in public.

So at the moment, no.


----------



## Poetigress (Jun 20, 2011)

TakeWalker said:


> Although I did buy two copies of Poetigress' latest work (which I haven't read yet c.c). But that's a short story.


 
Actually, it's more of a novelette, since it does run over 10K.  (In case anyone's interested...)

Assuming we're using "furry" to mean "published within the fandom," I'm pretty much with MLR on this one. I don't have a lot of spare money these days for books, and 99% of the books I do buy wind up being ones I've already read from the library and would like to have a copy to keep. 

There are a few furry publications I'd like to pick up eventually (namely, the latest New Fables from Sofawolf, and Bait and Switch from Anthro Dreams), though I will say that I tend to keep to the stuff from established publishers like Sofawolf, Bad Dog, Anthro Dreams, etc. I'm willing to sample self-published stuff and give it a chance, but so far I've seen nothing self-pubbed from the fandom that has had both sufficient quality and a subject matter that interests me, to make it worth doing more than just reading the first couple pages. So, as much as I do wish that there were more support for writing in the fandom (and as much as I wonder who's supposed to be reading all these things we're trying to write, if even we aren't), I can certainly sympathize with the issue of not being able to find things of interest, particularly things of interest that are also written at least at a semi-pro level.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jun 20, 2011)

Upon further reflection, I realized that I'm pretty sure I don't know/watch anyone who's published a novel. At least, not since I've had disposable income. I certainly wouldn't read one that was by someone whose work I was unfamiliar with.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jun 20, 2011)

This thread is reinforcing my idea that it's a better idea in general to publish outside of the fandom.


----------



## Poetigress (Jun 20, 2011)

TakeWalker said:


> Upon further reflection, I realized that I'm pretty sure I don't know/watch anyone who's published a novel.



Yet.  Announcement coming soon.



M. Le Renard said:


> This thread is reinforcing my idea that it's a better idea in general to publish outside of the fandom.



Sadly true, at least if you want to be widely read. Which is incredibly frustrating if what you're writing falls very much within the target audience of the fandom and would be difficult to sell to publishers outside.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 20, 2011)

The only one I have is _Bridges_ by Kyell Gold.


----------



## Poetigress (Jun 20, 2011)

Also, I don't know how this is going to sound, but in the interest of telling the whole truth, I should probably mention that most of the furry anthologies/magazines that I would have been interested in buying lately, I was already getting contributor's copies of because I had a story in there somewhere. I did subscribe to _Renard's Menagerie_ when that was still being published, although that was back when I had more disposable income. :/ Granted, those aren't novels, but still furry publications, anyway.


----------



## Tube (Jun 20, 2011)

Deo said:


> Fuck no.
> I like to read literature, not shit.


 
Yeah, that's how I feel about visual art. If I want to see art, I'll go to a museum, not the Internet.


----------



## Altamont (Jun 20, 2011)

In keeping with the general direction of the conversation, I haven't bought any furry novels and I don't see myself doing so any time soon, haha. This is mainly because I'm really picky when it comes to the quality of books I buy, and most furry lit isn't quite up to those standards. 

The only exception to this, perhaps, is the 'Furry!' short story collection that I bought a year or so ago.


----------



## Tube (Jun 20, 2011)

I have to say that this thread is pretty damned disheartening to someone who loves reading, writing, and storytelling in all its forms and is trying pretty hard to make it as a writer within the fandom.

The publishing market outside the fandom is dismal. I don't know why anyone would prefer to publish books out there; your readership is likely to be lower, and your publishers will screw you over.

But to see such utter disdain and contempt for what I love most, because it's furry, while pretty much all of furry visual art gets money and adulation is kind of a kick in the balls. It's hard to be a good writer. I work really hard at it, and I know a number of other people do too.


----------



## Poetigress (Jun 20, 2011)

Tube said:


> But to see such utter disdain and contempt for what I love most, because it's furry, while pretty much all of furry visual art gets money and adulation is kind of a kick in the balls. It's hard to be a good writer. I work really hard at it, and I know a number of other people do too.


 
Even though, as I said, I sympathize with why people don't buy furry publications... I agree with this. And I don't even have balls, technically speaking. 

People say things like "well, most furry writing is crap." Yeah, most of it is. So is most of everything. And there's a ton of crappy art on FA and everywhere else, too, but I don't see people lumping all of furry art together quality-wise. It's just easier to find the good art than it is to find the good writing, I suppose. But I'm still disappointed at how much more support good artists wind up getting in the fandom, compared to good writers. *shrug* But that's the way it is, and if anyone's got any ideas as to how to make things better...


----------



## Aden (Jun 20, 2011)

Tube said:


> But to see such utter disdain and contempt for what I love most, because it's furry, while pretty much all of furry visual art gets money and adulation is kind of a kick in the balls. It's hard to be a good writer. I work really hard at it, and I know a number of other people do too.


 
Like I said in my first post, I don't really go hunting for good furry literature, and the only stuff I hear about is poorly-conceived setups for first-time gay sex. Literally. 

Sci-fi has Isaac Asimov. Furry has Kyell Gold. Great.

So the problem is obviously one of exposition


----------



## Reiter (Jun 20, 2011)

What's so bad about Kyell Gold? I don't get all the hate. So he writes books about gay people. They're furry. Sometimes they have sex.

I'd understand all the outrage if all he did was cobble together some sex scenes, murr murr, stick them together with word-paste and publish it as is. But he obviously works hard at writing. For starters, he's prolific. He passes Sofawolf's standards. He was also finalist for the Washington Science Fiction Association's small press award - which he surely can't have engineered through some gay sex scene, so he *must* have done something right.

Please, enlighten me. What's the big deal?


----------



## Aden (Jun 20, 2011)

Reiter said:


> What's so bad about Kyell Gold? I don't get all the hate. So he writes books about gay people. They're furry. Sometimes they have sex.
> 
> I'd understand all the outrage if all he did was cobble together some sex scenes, murr murr, stick them together with word-paste and publish it as is. But he obviously works hard at writing. For starters, he's prolific. He passes Sofawolf's standards. He was also finalist for the Washington Science Fiction Association's small press award - which he surely can't have engineered through some gay sex scene, so he *must* have done something right.
> 
> Please, enlighten me. What's the big deal?


 
Big deal? No big deal. I just find it goddamn boring and I don't wish to read it, let alone spend money on it. If I were to compare it to art, it would be a direct analogue to Rukis: perfectly competent, perfectly homogeneous, perfectly boring.

But lots of other furries like it, so there ya go


----------



## Poetigress (Jun 20, 2011)

Aden said:


> Like I said in my first post, I don't really go hunting for good furry literature, and the only stuff I hear about is poorly-conceived setups for first-time gay sex. Literally.


 
Okay, then as you point out, we have a problem with getting the word out about the other stuff. What I would say is this (and it's been said before, countless times, but who knows, maybe someone who hasn't listened before will listen this time): When you (I mean this as a general "you," not addressing Aden personally) find something that does stand out to you and is different from everything else out there, make an effort to support it. That doesn't just mean buying somebody's book and being done with it. Rate it on Amazon, on Goodreads. Like it on Facebook. Tweet a link to it. Write a journal or a blog post about it. Review it on Amazon or Goodreads or FurPlanet or wherever it is. Tell other people. I know some people do this already, but there always need to be more. This doesn't mean that authors don't have the responsibility of marketing their own work -- and it certainly doesn't mean they don't have the responsibility to produce the best work they can. Regardless of quality, not everything is going to be to everyone's taste, of course. But when you do like what someone's doing, spread the word, in whatever small way you can. 

[/soapbox]


----------



## buni (Jun 20, 2011)

What would you consider "compelling"? What would a novel have to contain to have you interested in it?


----------



## buni (Jun 20, 2011)

Poetigress said:


> But that's the way it is, and if anyone's got any ideas as to how to make things better...


 
My typical response is, "furry needs a curated website run by authors and editors to publicly showcase the talent within the fandom." We need a place that isn't just a giant slush pile of people uploading stories, which is available for people to start seeing the quality that already exists and to help find and encourage new creators. I've been hoping that Watts Martin's "Claw and Quill" would become that, but it's been in development for the better part of a decade, and all of the people I know who are interested in having such a thing are usually too busy writing or editing to take the time to build it.


----------



## Aden (Jun 20, 2011)

buni said:


> What would you consider "compelling"? What would a novel have to contain to have you interested in it?



I'm more of a fantasy/sci-fi kind of person. I read novels to have my mind expanded, to think deeply, to be immersed in interesting worlds, and to care what happens to the characters. My current read is Scar Night (and then the rest of the trilogy).



buni said:


> My typical response is, "furry needs a curated website run by authors and editors to publicly showcase the talent within the fandom." We need a place that isn't just a giant slush pile of people uploading stories, which is available for people to start seeing the quality that already exists and to help find and encourage new creators. I've been hoping that Watts Martin's "Claw and Quill" would become that, but it's been in development for the better part of a decade, and all of the people I know who are interested in having such a thing are usually too busy writing or editing to take the time to build it.


 
I'd check it out


----------



## buni (Jun 20, 2011)

Poetigress said:


> Okay, then as you point out, we have a problem with getting the word out about the other stuff. What I would say is this (and it's been said before, countless times, but who knows, maybe someone who hasn't listened before will listen this time): When you (I mean this as a general "you," not addressing Aden personally) find something that does stand out to you and is different from everything else out there, make an effort to support it.


 
It sounds from the thread like the problem runs deeper than that, though. From what I just read, it's not a matter of people not being willing to support what they find. It's a matter of people not looking. It doesn't matter how much talent we may have if nobody's interested in what we're producing. The problem here is one of overcoming the perception that the general state of furry lit is crap. It isn't necessarily the case, but how to make the case for that if people aren't even looking at it to judge?


----------



## buni (Jun 20, 2011)

Aden said:


> I'm more of a fantasy/sci-fi kind of person. I read novels to have my mind expanded, to think deeply, to be immersed in interesting worlds, and to care what happens to the characters. My current read is Scar Night (and then the rest of the trilogy).



So, at the risk of touting my own horn too loudly, the rough drafts for my last and present novels are available online free to read, along with short synopses of each. If you enjoy them, Beautiful World is available through FurPlanet in hardcopy, or from [http://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Wor...?ie=UTF8&qid=1308600401&sr=1-1-catcorr]Amazon[/i] if you prefer a Kindle version.

You don't have to read them. I can't make you read them. I can only put them out there and say "I hope you enjoy them."


----------



## Aden (Jun 20, 2011)

buni said:


> It's a matter of people not looking. It doesn't matter how much talent we may have if nobody's interested in what we're producing. The problem here is one of overcoming the perception that the general state of furry lit is crap. It isn't necessarily the case, but how to make the case for that if people aren't even looking at it to judge?


 
A novel is a commitment on behalf of the reader and might take days of their time to appreciate. You're going to find less people actively looking for this commitment - some people might be in the middle of another novel, for example, or they might be at a hectic point in their life. Also, a lot of furries are younger people that don't have the maturity or attention span to devote that kind of time.

_Then_ the problem after that is one of faith and risk. Starting a novel that you don't know will be good or bad is potentially a waste of a lot of time, and time is precious to a lot of people. Hell, I know a few people that don't want to waste their time on a film, only an hour and a half commitment, because not enough people have said good things about it.



buni said:


> last


 
Page isn't working for some reason. I get this.


----------



## Poetigress (Jun 20, 2011)

buni said:


> From what I just read, it's not a matter of people not being willing to support what they find. It's a matter of people not looking. It doesn't matter how much talent we may have if nobody's interested in what we're producing.



Well, honestly, at some point we're into leading the horse to water and not being able to force them to drink. If it truly is the case that most furries just aren't interested in reading furry fiction, then we're sunk no matter what we do. What I'm talking about with support is, the problem of people simply not hearing about the good stuff that does exist. So yes, that does assume they're interested in reading furry fiction but just can't find stuff that seems worthwhile to them (and these pepole usually give up eventually if they can't find anything, and from there it's a short step to the declaration that furry lit is crap, because they've looked and looked and haven't seen anything worthwhile). Some of that is because the authors don't do enough to put themselves out there, some of it might be because of a lack of centralized venues for people to get info/reviews from (venues exist, but they're scattered) -- and some of it is because furry readers are, IMO, as a group not nearly as supportive and vocal about recommending things as readers in other genres are. Furries will do a lot to support the artists they like. Writers... not so much. I'm not saying there aren't supportive readers out there; there are, and I'm very grateful for them. But overall, I just don't see the same level of enthusiasm there that I see elsewhere in other genres or even other fan communities.



> The problem here is one of overcoming the perception that the general state of furry lit is crap. It isn't necessarily the case, but how to make the case for that if people aren't even looking at it to judge?



I agree that that's also a problem. I don't think we're looking at one single overarching problem as much as a bunch of interconnected ones. I do think the kind of website you're describing would help, but I also agree that if we can't at least partially overcome the "furry lit is crap" assumption, having the best website in the world won't matter. It's kind of a catch-22, unfortunately. 

At the risk of insulting one group of people or another, I think the readership (or potential readership) in the furry fandom breaks into two main categories. There are those who read extensively outside the fandom and thus set the bar high in terms of what they expect on a craft and art level when it comes to work inside the fandom, and then there are a lot of people (mostly younger, though not exclusively) who would probably be termed "reluctant readers" in the educational system, and they're mostly reading one furry book or another because the subject matter interests them or is something they can relate to. I would speculate that the second group might not read that much outside the fandom at all. If this is the case -- and this is all idle speculation and might be totally off the mark -- then it would seem the first question might be, could both sorts of readers even be reached/targeted with the same sort of venue? The first group might be actively looking, at least for a while, and would need to have somewhere they can go to find work that meets a certain standard. The second group might be the ones who aren't necessarily looking at all, unless they happen to hear about something that piques their interest or see a book in a dealer's room with cover art that catches their eye.

... Not really sure where I'm going with that, just an observation. And of course, breaking anything into two groups is always limiting and leaves a good amount of gray out of the picture.


----------



## buni (Jun 20, 2011)

Aden said:


> Page isn't working for some reason. I get this.


 
Bizarre. Try http://nail.prismaticmedia.com/settings/irokai/beautiful-world/beautiful-world-01-intervention/ instead.


----------



## Hateful Bitch (Jun 20, 2011)

Does the Redwall series count? Because I read that a bit.

I mean it's all furry characters (from what I know) but lol Brian Jacques was like 71 when he died this year so I doubt he was a furry or anything.


----------



## Tube (Jun 20, 2011)

Hateful Bitch said:


> Does the Redwall series count? Because I read that a bit.
> 
> I mean it's all furry characters (from what I know) but lol Brian Jacques was like 71 when he died this year so I doubt he was a furry or anything.


 
Technically that's just one novel written lots of times. </snark>


----------



## Hateful Bitch (Jun 20, 2011)

Tube said:


> Technically that's just one novel written lots of times. </snark>


 
lmao, I only read like one book. Is it basically the same formula the whole way through?


----------



## Tube (Jun 20, 2011)

Hateful Bitch said:


> lmao, I only read like one book. Is it basically the same formula the whole way through?


 
Depressingly so.

Also it's kind of creepy how what species you are determines whether or not you're evil.


----------



## Hateful Bitch (Jun 20, 2011)

Tube said:


> Depressingly so.
> 
> Also it's kind of creepy how what species you are determines whether or not you're evil.


 
the true evil is man 
/deep

But yeah I guess I can ignore it from now on <:
I still have to finish all these 'classics' bullshit have lying around though. Those being A Clockwork Orange (why is this called a classic [it's alright though]), Animal Farm, 1984, To Kill A Mockingbird, The Lord of the Rings and Wuthering Heights. I am such an amateur when it comes to books and whatnot :c

Anyway not the place to talk about it. Derailing and whatnot.


----------



## kade (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm guessing you don't mean books like watership down or the sight. That's about the only 'furry' related books I own


----------



## duroc (Jun 20, 2011)

Six months ago, I would have found this thread depressing. Now, I just find it annoying. Also, I'm reminded why I stayed away from the FA Forums for so long.


----------



## buni (Jun 20, 2011)

duroc said:


> Six months ago, I would have found this thread depressing. Now, I just find it annoying.



I'm generally of the opinion that I haven't learned anything I didn't already suspect. I wish it were otherwise, but it's hardly a shock.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jun 20, 2011)

Well, we've had similar discussions here in the past, and the conclusion has always basically been the same.  I just take the hint that it's not the furry fandom audience I should be pandering to in my writing, because that audience barely exists, and that audience mostly doesn't give a crap.
Now, I'm not going to harp on artists or art in general, because I'm an artist myself and I see the negative side of that too.  Certain kinds of artists have it just as hard as writers, believe me.  People come on to FA looking for 2 things: pornography and community.  In other words, you either pander to the masses by drawing or writing cheap fetish porn, or you pander to a small group who happens to take an interest in your work for some reason.  
It's not the place to come if you're trying to sell your new furry sci-fi novel published by Bad Dog Books.
Now where do you go to sell that novel?  I have no freaking idea.  I really don't.  The only thing I can say is, furries probably don't care, so you better hope other people do, or you're going to be sitting on a manuscript that sells roughly 10 copies a year, if you're lucky.

And hey, I'm guilty too!  Whenever I see a novel or something advertised on the main site, I always look into it with a more than critical eye, if I click it at all, because frankly, I don't expect it's going to be any good.  We just don't have that many editors or publishers in the fandom who are willing and able to put in the time to turn shit into Shinola, so what we get are a few good, professionally polished books buried under a heaping pile of mediocre to agonizingly bad self-published ones.  And a few gems in the self-published category, if you can find them.
But it's like, unless you're truly dedicated to this fandom and its writers, why would you sit there and dig through all that crap to find the gems anyway?  You could much more easily go to the local library and find a book there that you'd enjoy reading, and that you know would be up to a certain standard because it's been through the rigorous screening process known as professional publication.  You know?  There's lots of books I would like to read: classics, sci-fi I haven't gotten around to, new books by authors I like, new authors I've heard good things about, nonfiction, and so on and so forth.  Most of the time I'd rather read one of those books instead of slogging around on the internet trying to find a furry novel that a)has subject matter I'm interested in, and b)is a quality piece of fiction wherein I won't constantly be distracted by bad grammar and poor editing.
Plus I'm always working on my own writing.
So yeah... I don't know what else to say, other than, don't write for furries unless you don't care about profit.  Those people uninterested in publication or popularity have got it the best, really.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jun 21, 2011)

You know, I was gonna say something, but then Renard posted and said it for me. :B

I can't even talk, though. When I call myself a "furry writer", I mean that I am a furry who writes, not a writer of furry fiction. If I ever get off my ass and try to publish, it's going to be outside the fandom. I simply don't produce furry stories, and I blame this community in a large part for getting the "why do they need to be furries" caveat stuck in my head. I don't even read that much anymore.


----------



## FuzzWolf (Jul 6, 2011)

Full disclosure up front: I own FurPlanet Productions.  We publish books ourselves and we also act as distributors for other companies.  We sell online and also at about 10 furry cons each year so I have a little different point of view on this.  That being said, I'm going to reply to some of the posts here then add some additional thoughts at the end.  Sorry to do it all in one chunk, but I'm hardly ever on this forum and I felt this topic was an important one.



Tybalt Maxwell said:


> My boyfriend sent me his copy of "Waterways" and that just kind of turned me off of furry literature.


Because one book that isn't to your particular taste is an accurate representation of every book published in the fandom.  Not even all of Kyell's books are like Waterways.  I'm a little confused at what point "Kyell" became a genre of his own.



Conker said:


> I'll stick to...things I know will be of a high quality.


How do you determine what's of high quality?  It's not like everything published by a more mainstream publisher is going to be of high quality yet you'd give them the benefit of the doubt you won't extend to those publishers in the fandom.



Alstor said:


> Unless the author is a credible professional who realizes that the furryism has to be integrated into the story's moral or plot, I would be way too embarrassed to purchase it in public.
> 
> So at the moment, no.


So order it online if it's something that interests you.  Very few fandom-produced books are in traditional bookstores (with the exception of one Borders in Connecticut) anyway so you'd be buying either online or in a convention dealers room.



TakeWalker said:


> I certainly wouldn't read one that was by someone whose work I was unfamiliar with.


Presumably you had to start somewhere.  With anyone whose work you're reading now there had to be a first experience with their work, right?  Why not extend that opportunity to another author.  



M. Le Renard said:


> This thread is reinforcing my idea that it's a better idea in general to publish outside of the fandom.


Depends on what you want.  I'm selling books right now that have sold more copies than some books published outside the fandom.  Operating within a niche market is a valid way to do business, ideally several niche markets which your work may appeal to.  The mainstream publishing world is clogged with new releases, they actually number in the millions every year and most of them aren't going to sell many copies and will likely pay a lower royalty than a fandom publisher will.  On the other hand, how many novels are published in the fandom each year?  Probably less than two dozen.  A book published in the fandom is going to deal with a lot less competition.  The furry reading audience is small, but for the furs that do read they are generally a very supportive audience and tend to buy multiple books.



Altamont said:


> In keeping with the general direction of the conversation, I haven't bought any furry novels and I don't see myself doing so any time soon, haha. This is mainly because I'm really picky when it comes to the quality of books I buy, and most furry lit isn't quite up to those standards.
> 
> The only exception to this, perhaps, is the 'Furry!' short story collection that I bought a year or so ago.


Several of the authors featured in Furry! have since also written other stories or novels which have been published within the fandom.  So if you liked Furry! then you might find other stories you'd like to read by Googling those authors. 



Tube said:


> I have to say that this thread is pretty damned disheartening to someone who loves reading, writing, and storytelling in all its forms and is trying pretty hard to make it as a writer within the fandom.
> 
> The publishing market outside the fandom is dismal. I don't know why anyone would prefer to publish books out there; your readership is likely to be lower, and your publishers will screw you over.
> 
> But to see such utter disdain and contempt for what I love most, because it's furry, while pretty much all of furry visual art gets money and adulation is kind of a kick in the balls. It's hard to be a good writer. I work really hard at it, and I know a number of other people do too.


I'm only quoting this to say yup, I agree completely.  It's quite disheartening.  There's lots of complaining in this thread about the state of furry fiction, but when a few people do step up and write, edit, publish, etc these same complainers are there to poo poo our efforts as not being good enough.  Well, ya gotta start somewhere and if you're just criticizing and not contributing then you're part of the problem rather than helping the situation.



Aden said:


> Starting a novel that you don't know will be good or bad is potentially a waste of a lot of time, and time is precious to a lot of people.


My suggestion would be to pick up one of the anthologies which have been mentioned.  You'd have stories by a handful of authors, none being a big time commitment by themselves and if you find one or two authors you really like then you could look into some of their other work.
Furry! has been mentioned as a good example.  I'd also recommend the ROAR series from Bad Dog Books and definitely Alone in the Dark, published by Anthropomorphic Dreams.



duroc said:


> Six months ago, I would have found this thread depressing. Now, I just find it annoying. Also, I'm reminded why I stayed away from the FA Forums for so long.


I generally don't have time to read forums so I don't know if it's like this all the time.  I can say I find some of the posts on the FWG forum equally as disheartening.  There's a general defeatist attitude among a lot of the writers too.  I think some fandom authors could use a dose of self-esteem to feel as if success _is_ possible.



M. Le Renard said:


> So yeah... I don't know what else to say, other than, don't write for furries unless you don't care about profit.  Those people uninterested in publication or popularity have got it the best, really.


Like I said above, you can make money as an author even in a small niche market like furry.  Most of the time though, I wouldn't recommend writing for the goal of profit or popularity no matter where you're intending to publish or what you're writing.  If you're writing to be rich you're doing it wrong.

***

Now that I've done that I'll add some other thoughts on this topic here.

We just got home from Anthrocon last week so I want to share some sales insight with you.

When my partner and I bought FurPlanet just over three years ago, we mostly sold comics and had very few books.  That first year we had book titles in the single digits and everything else was some kind of comic.

With time the mix of our product line has changed.

At this year's Anthrocon our sales showed an increase over last year's AC of approx. 35%.  This year's sales breakdown was 53% books and 47% comics.  Yes these are actual numbers from our records.  So our book sales are now more than half of our total sales, and our overall sales are better.

What this means is, there is a market for furry books.  People in the fandom are buying books.  The assertion that books don't sell in the furry fandom is false.  Is there a huge market for artwork?  Sure and it's bigger than the book market.  In a world where readership is down globally I think we're doing pretty darn good for selling in our little niche market.  We're not rich and I'm not retiring or quitting my day job, but our company is financially stable and when we show up at a convention there are always people there waiting to buy our products.

So, furry authors, keep the faith and keep writing. There is hope and there is an audience for what you're producing.

Also, while it is only natural to compare how writing is seen in the fandom versus how much artwork is appreciated I encourage you to work with the artist community rather than see it as an obstacle.  The old adage of "Don't judge a book by its cover" does not hold up when it comes to marketing and selling books.  Having an attractive cover that will grab the eye can make or break a book.  That probably doesn't seem right or fair, but if you want a book to sell you need a killer cover.  That's the reality.

To all the naysayers who like to moan when it comes to furry literature not being good, profitable or all gay smut, stop whining and start helping.  You want to see better stories, start helping writers you know to edit their stories.  Start reading books and writing reviews.

Also, put your puritanical thoughts back under the rock they came from.  Sex sells and if it weren't for the adult books being published then we would not be able to keep operating as a publishing company.  Then we wouldn't be putting out any books, adult or clean.  

Also, we put out non-adult books all the time and I still see complaints that there is only porn stories in furry.  If you want non-adult books to be published you have to support them and put your money where your mouth is.  Some non-adult zines have folded due to lack of people buying them or lack of submissions.  Anthrolations folded, Renard's Menagerie folded.  There isn't a New Fables 2011 from Sofawolf this year because not enough quality material was submitted to it.  ROAR 4 is also seeking submissions right now and is running short on them.  If you don't want to buy a clean furry book then for crying out loud get off your tails and start writing something!  Stop complaining and start contributing.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 9, 2011)

FuzzWolf said:
			
		

> At this year's Anthrocon our sales showed an increase over last year's AC of approx. 35%.


I guess I only have one question: 35 percent of what?
Not to mention, if the best you can say for your company is that it's 'financially stable', what does that mean about the profits for the authors you publish?
I know as authors we're not supposed to enjoy making money from our craft, but money doesn't just mean money; it also means readers.  There's a direct correlation between the two.  And readers are the thing we should care about the most.  So throw me some numbers here that tell me that yes, it would be a better idea to have my fantasy novel published FurPlanet than to have it published by a general fantasy/adventure publisher.  Percents don't mean anything by themselves, so I'm not able to glean anything at all from your post except that you want us to feel better about the state of the market for furry books.


----------



## Raphael (Jul 9, 2011)

I bought the graphic novel *Pride of Baghdad*. It's based upon the true story about the four lions who escaped from the Baghdad Zoo during the bombing by the United States, and their survival for a day in the warzone it became, before they were found and slaughtered. 

It's a good book, and a really thought-provoking allegory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_of_Baghdad


*EDIT: *Oh, and I also read all the Redwall books as a kid.


----------



## Conker (Jul 10, 2011)

FuzzWolf said:


> How do you determine what's of high quality?  It's not like everything published by a more mainstream publisher is going to be of high quality yet you'd give them the benefit of the doubt you won't extend to those publishers in the fandom.


 Authors I know for starters. Not being labeled "furry" also helps me determine the quality.

Plus points if it's also considered literature. I like that stuff.


----------



## Reiter (Jul 10, 2011)

Conker said:


> Authors I know for starters. Not being labeled "furry" also helps me determine the quality.
> 
> Plus points if it's also considered literature. I like that stuff.


 Seems you've already made up your mind about furry - and if that's the case, no amount of convincing would ever convince you.

All well-written books are technically considered literature.  Do you mean 'literary fiction'? That's a very ambiguous term, though. Some writers regard it as any fiction that's strongly character-based; others as fiction sprinkled with pretty sentences and erudite references; yet others as any fiction that is NOT genre fiction, regardless of what literary merits said genre fics may possess. Which one do you mean?


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 10, 2011)

I hate literary fiction ('literary' in this case being the genre).  I made a whole thread about it once, wherein I complained about the terrible short stories that always get published in the New Yorker magazine.

Now... okay, let's turn this thread from depressing to productive.  I already asked a question of the publisher (although I seriously doubt we're going to get a reply to that one anytime soon), so now let's ask a question of the non-writers: what do you want to see in furry fiction that would make you read it?  And don't just give vague answers like, "It needs to be well-written", or, "It needs to have an interesting plot."  I'm talking more, let's say you were in a bookstore, and you were looking for something to read, and you happened to see a book with a cover that had an anthro character on it.  You read the back, and you go, "This sounds worthwhile compared to all the other anthrofiction I've ever seen."  What does the back say that draws you in?

Let's find out what our stupid audience actually wants from us writers.


----------



## Onnes (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm not sure how typical my book-buying habits are, but I rarely purchase based just on browsing the store shelves. I choose my books either because I'm already familiar with the author or because they have been recommended by a reputable source. Basically, I need to see some sort of positive word-of-mouth generated for a title before I'd consider adding it to my backlog of books.


----------



## Enwon (Jul 10, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> I hate literary fiction ('literary' in this case being the genre).  I made a whole thread about it once, wherein I complained about the terrible short stories that always get published in the New Yorker magazine.
> 
> Now... okay, let's turn this thread from depressing to productive.  I already asked a question of the publisher (although I seriously doubt we're going to get a reply to that one anytime soon), so now let's ask a question of the non-writers: what do you want to see in furry fiction that would make you read it?  And don't just give vague answers like, "It needs to be well-written", or, "It needs to have an interesting plot."  I'm talking more, let's say you were in a bookstore, and you were looking for something to read, and you happened to see a book with a cover that had an anthro character on it.  You read the back, and you go, "This sounds worthwhile compared to all the other anthrofiction I've ever seen."  What does the back say that draws you in?
> 
> Let's find out what our stupid audience actually wants from us writers.


I like things that make a statement about society, technology, or humanity as a whole.  I also like works which go deep into the psychology of characters.  I'd say I like apocalyptic fiction, but that is such an overdone genre that it would require a twist to be interesting.  I personally tend to read a lot of nonfiction as well.  One turn-off is a boring "normal real life" beginning- I want to be entertained before the end of the 4th chapter, please.


----------



## Conker (Jul 10, 2011)

Reiter said:


> Seems you've already made up your mind about furry - and if that's the case, no amount of convincing would ever convince you.
> 
> All well-written books are technically considered literature.  Do you mean 'literary fiction'? That's a very ambiguous term, though. Some writers regard it as any fiction that's strongly character-based; others as fiction sprinkled with pretty sentences and erudite references; yet others as any fiction that is NOT genre fiction, regardless of what literary merits said genre fics may possess. Which one do you mean?


 Literature in that it's in the "cannon" as my professors would call it. 

Like, I'm currently working my way through _Don Quixote_, and after that I'm going to read _Paradise Lost_. 

Course, those old classic books don't make up the bulk of my library, mostly science fiction and fantasy do, but I've learned which authors I like. I've tried to read a few furry novels, but most aren't that well written, and the "furry" aspect of it has too much focus. When I was reading the _Redwall_ books way back in middle school, all the characters were anthro yes, but that never really had an effect on the story other than "wolves and cats and rats are badguys." It seems the furry shit I've read has a constant barrage of "his tail was..." or "HE HAS WHISKERS" or "fur bla bla bla" when that's not really important.


----------



## Heliophobic (Jul 10, 2011)

Rechan said:


> If you don't, why not?


 
Because everything I read never turns out to be what I expected. Now if you excuse me, I'm gonna go cry in a corner while eating ice cream.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 10, 2011)

Enwon said:


> I like things that make a statement about society, technology, or humanity as a whole.  I also like works which go deep into the psychology of characters.  I'd say I like apocalyptic fiction, but that is such an overdone genre that it would require a twist to be interesting.  I personally tend to read a lot of nonfiction as well.  One turn-off is a boring "normal real life" beginning- I want to be entertained before the end of the 4th chapter, please.


But how about... okay, we're all furries here (to a certain degree), so what draws you into the fandom?  And how can that draw be mimicked in a piece of furry fiction?
Because everything you've listed there is just good for fiction in general.  I want to know where the anthro part fits in.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jul 10, 2011)

You know, I think that if I went into a bookstore and saw an anthro novel, that would be enough for me to pick it up. That's more or less why I got S. Andrew Swann's Moreau trilogy (not that I've read it yet). Legitimizing is a big factor.

Of course, I can't even tell you what I look for in non-anthro fiction, so I'm afraid I won't be much help beyond that.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 10, 2011)

It sounds like people just want to see critical acclaim.
See... this is why we need an alternative to the Ursa Majors that awards works for quality rather than popularity.  Maybe one of these days I should write up a draft of a scoring rubric for something like that so we can get it off the ground.  I think finding judges would be the only hard part.


----------



## Enwon (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> But how about... okay, we're all furries here (to a certain degree), so what draws you into the fandom?  And how can that draw be mimicked in a piece of furry fiction?
> Because everything you've listed there is just good for fiction in general.  I want to know where the anthro part fits in.


Hmm... well, if I were looking for anthros in particular, I'd want the anthros to actually have some significance, and not just be anthro for the sake of being anthro.  That's a vague statement, I know, because there's a lot that could be done with anthros, but still...


----------



## sunandshadow (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> But how about... okay, we're all furries here (to a certain degree), so what draws you into the fandom?  And how can that draw be mimicked in a piece of furry fiction?
> Because everything you've listed there is just good for fiction in general.  I want to know where the anthro part fits in.


 I'd say that people are drawn to animal-related fiction for two main reasons.  Either they want to see animals as symbolism, which is a popular and powerful thing in most human cultures, or they want to see human intelligence applied to a non-human body or set of instincts/abilities so they can vicariously experience a different life experience through the viewpoint character.


----------



## buni (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> So throw me some numbers here that tell me that yes, it would be a better idea to have my fantasy novel published FurPlanet than to have it published by a general fantasy/adventure publisher.  Percents don't mean anything by themselves, so I'm not able to glean anything at all from your post except that you want us to feel better about the state of the market for furry books.


 
I'll be glad to share my sales figures with you, but I doubt they'll make you feel better.
_Child of Man_, self-published through CreateSpace, has sold six copies since I made it available. It's a turd I got tired of polishing admittedly my first novel and not my best work, so I'm not hurt over it.
_Beautiful World_, published through FurPlanet, came out at FC2011 and has sold twenty copies as of Q1 of this year. No report yet on Q2 figures, which will include Amazon numbers since it went up through FurPlanet's website.

I can't tell you how any of these compare to _Bait and Switch_, _Handcuffs & Lace_, or any of Kyell's novels. I doubt I count for much more than a sliver of the overall sales volume. Even today, advertising and maintaining eyeballs eludes me as a skill. I know what I like talking about; that doesn't mean I have a clue what people want to read.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 11, 2011)

I think Kyell's books tend to sell in the thousands per year, if I'm not mistaken.
Either way, no, those figures aren't very heartening.  20 copies a quarter is like... you could use the money to buy yourself a new toaster.  That's about how much I make doing art commissions, really.  Probably less, assuming FurPlanet takes a decent cut, or maybe nothing at all if it's like other publishers.  But let me ask; are you responsible for advertising Beautiful World?  Does FurPlanet ever help you out in that regard?
If the answer's no... well, I probably don't need to finish that thought.

And of course it appears that our publisher representative is long gone.  We'll give it another week before we entirely give up hope, though.


----------



## Kamatz (Jul 11, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> Maybe one of these days I should write up a draft of a scoring rubric for something like that so we can get it off the ground.



That would be fantastic. I hope that you do it and it succeeds. I would really like to see quality work rewarded and encouraged.

 I won't pretend to know anything about publishing in or out of the fandom, but I can give my impressions on the writing. In my opinion, sites like sofurry give furry writing a bad reputation. It's popular, there's tons of content (almost all of it terrible porn); it's essentially FA's sister site, but for prose. And because it's so popular, it's all I ever hear about. While it's a great thing that anyone these days can post their art or writing, it also opens the floodgates and drowns out the real good stuff with an endless stream of meaningless drivel. It's just not real literature.

  To be clear, I don't mean to criticize amateur writing. Any writer with the desire to improve his or her craft and learn to write well is welcome in my eyes. I'm one of those people, so I can't be too critical anyway. What I can't stand is when a writer chooses to write ONLY typical furry drama or sex stories with no real literary value. And that's the majority of the stuff that's out there (or at least, that's the impression I get). I'm sure that's the impression most people have as well. The question is, how can this impression be changed? Can it even be changed? If the majority of the furry audience is looking for "furry genre fiction" then attempts at stories with more literary value probably won't sell.

  Part of the reason why art is so successful is that it's so easy to look at. If you don't like what you see, looking at it wasn't a significant time or effort investment so you're still willing to keep looking at art. Reading is hard, and if you read enough bad stories, eventually you don't want to give the new ones a chance anymore.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jul 11, 2011)

Kamatz said:


> That would be fantastic. I hope that you do it and it succeeds. I would really like to see quality work rewarded and encouraged.


 
Just going to second this really quick. Feel free to bug me, Renard, if you need to.


----------



## Reiter (Jul 12, 2011)

Kamatz said:


> To be clear, I don't mean to criticize amateur writing. Any writer with the desire to improve his or her craft and learn to write well is welcome in my eyes. I'm one of those people, so I can't be too critical anyway. What I can't stand is when a writer chooses to write ONLY typical furry drama or sex stories with no real literary value. And that's the majority of the stuff that's out there (or at least, that's the impression I get). I'm sure that's the impression most people have as well. The question is, how can this impression be changed? Can it even be changed? If the majority of the furry audience is looking for "furry genre fiction" then attempts at stories with more literary value probably won't sell.


Yeah, I agree. The impression I get, actually, is that amateur writers find art too difficult to do, so they write instead. Somehow that's supposed to be "easier". Then they gravitate to the topics they'd have portrayed if they ended up as artists - i.e. clean romance & "sticky" romance - so instead of a story that uses furry as an extra layer of meaning, they just produce scenes which are the equivalent of blue-bordered/red-bordered pics on FA. And then they call that "literature".



Kamatz said:


> Part of the reason why art is so successful is that it's so easy to look at. If you don't like what you see, looking at it wasn't a significant time or effort investment so you're still willing to keep looking at art. Reading is hard, and if you read enough bad stories, eventually you don't want to give the new ones a chance anymore.


 Haha, so true. I do volunteer editing on FurRag, and while the content we receive *is* typically a cut above the rest, I'd say about a third of it is still poorly written. Combine that with FA and SoFurry, and it's like going through an endless slushpile of romance and erotica.

I used to think slushers were being unfair, using the first paragraph to determine whether a story was Pass or Fail, but now I can't blame them. You probably have to have infinite patience to endure such voluminous piles of crap.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jul 12, 2011)

Reiter said:


> I used to think slushers were being unfair, using the first paragraph to determine whether a story was Pass or Fail, but now I can't blame them. You probably have to have infinite patience to endure such voluminous piles of crap.


 
Having not even come remotely close to working in any publishing industry, I can say with firmness that the first paragraph is usually a good indicator of what's to come, sometimes even the first sentence.


----------



## Kamatz (Jul 12, 2011)

TakeWalker said:


> the first paragraph is usually a good indicator of what's to come, sometimes even the first sentence.


 I think so too. If the opening sentence or paragraph is good, I'm usually more forgiving of the next couple of paragraphs or so, even if they're not as good. As long as there are a few really good paragraphs dispersed among the not so good ones, I'll keep reading. All it means is the writer has some work to do.


----------



## buni (Jul 12, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> But let me ask; are you responsible for advertising Beautiful World?  Does FurPlanet ever help you out in that regard?
> If the answer's no... well, I probably don't need to finish that thought.



The answer is "sort of." They volunteered to pay for one ad slot on FA for two months, I believe, but given the number of people who advertise on FA, that meant a very few number of impressions overall. I'm not sure if I can get at the number of times it actually displayed during that window, but I would put it below at least one other novel that came out at the same con. Make of this information what you will. My wife actually designed the ad itself, and then we just gave it to them to post.

Then again, we did a lot of "publisher support" for _Beautiful World_. I hired the editor and cover artist, and my wife did the book layout and Kindle conversion. FP handled ISBN provisioning and promotion of the work. Having not yet been at a con post-release, I can't speak to myself how heavily they promote their works, but they're doing more than I probably could have myself, simply because I'm not _good_ at it. Whether they're as good as any _other_ publisher that would've taken the work... that I can't say. I don't have comparative samples to judge.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm sort of taking part in two discussions in the same place, here (there's another thread PT started on the FWG forums), but it sounds to me like one of the major issues is that writing in the fandom is mostly a hobby for everyone involved, including the publishers, really.  I'm sure the editors at FurPlanet and whatnot put in a lot of time, but if there's only two of them, they don't really have the capability of making it a really successful enterprise, and so they obviously have to do something else in order to make a living in the meantime.  And it sounds like every other furry publisher is basically the same way.  So we've got writers writing part-time, editors editing part-time, and publishers publishing part-time.  It's no wonder every single bit of it falls under the radar.
In which case....


			
				TakeWalker said:
			
		

> Just going to second this really quick. Feel free to bug me, Renard, if you need to.


Does that mean you want to help?  I'm quite a bit shorter on time these days, now that I'm working again and doing art commissions again, so it would probably take me a while to draft something up.  But it would be good to have a second opinion on it too, or someone to brainstorm with.  I think we really need to get this project off the ground once and for all.  It won't have miraculous results, but it's a good first step.


----------



## buni (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm up for assisting as well. I've had some talks on the subject with others already, and I know a bit about how the Nebulas work. Not from personal experience, but from research.


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 13, 2011)

Sure thing.  Knowing how the Nebulas work would be an incredibly useful place to start.  
We'll get a committee going.  How do you want to communicate: e-mail?  IM?


----------



## buni (Jul 13, 2011)

I'd say an open process over on the FWG boards is probably best. If you'd prefer email, though, buni AT lapinia DOT org.


----------



## TakeWalker (Jul 13, 2011)

M. Le Renard said:


> Does that mean you want to help?


 
It's a very weaselly "yes". I'm not sure how much help I can be, both due to time and expertise issues, but if nothing else, e-mail me, bounce ideas around, I'm always available as a sounding board.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jul 13, 2011)

You don't go into Furry publishing expecting to make money, do you?


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jul 13, 2011)

Does anybody read Kevin Frane's novels?


----------



## M. LeRenard (Jul 15, 2011)

Hey, to let everyone know, Fuzz did eventually respond to this thread in the FWG (and apparently here first), thus proving that I made an unfair judgment.



			
				DareylWolf said:
			
		

> Does anybody read Kevin Frane's novels?


I'm not familiar with that author, no.


----------



## Poetigress (Jul 16, 2011)

DarrylWolf said:


> Does anybody read Kevin Frane's novels?


 
I haven't, but I've heard good things about them.


----------



## Banner (Aug 25, 2011)

I write novels that I guess are 'furry'. While I used to publish in Yarf! These days I publish outside of the fandom, on Amazon, Barnes & Nobles, Smashwords, etc. Mostly because there is better money to be made there, and better sales. Inside the fandom you get way too many snarky people, and way too many folks who get really upset if you don't pander to their particular fetish. 

I would personally recommend to people that if you want to find decent 'furry' type stories, go to those websites, do searches on keywords like 'furry', 'anthropomorphic', or whatever species you're interested in. If you're interested in shifter type stories, the romance section is -full- of them, and a lot of them are quite good. Then download the Kindle reader (or whichever the site you're on requires) and look at the free sample to see if you like it.

There are a lot of good ebooks out there for under 5 dollars. Since I bought a kindle, I've read dozens of them myself (both furry and non furry). And if you find something you like, please take the time to at least rate it.


----------



## Earth Rio (Jun 23, 2012)

Sadly, I don't buy furry novels because I can't find any. However, if Redwall counts, then yes: I have every book in the series except for Loamhedge.


----------

