# Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors...



## CerbrusNL (Jul 17, 2014)

How could something like this happen...

On board: 154 Dutch. 27 Australian, 23 Malaysian (15 crew), 11 Indonesian, 6 UK, 4 German, 4 Belgian, 3 Filipino, 1 Canadian end 47 passengers of as of yet unknown nationality... All gone.
These were people going on vacation, business, or even going home. All gone.

There's this picture of the plane on facebook, made by one of the passengers. The caption literally reads: _"May it disappear, this is what it looks like"_. The comments on there are heart-breaking. First people are wishing them a good holiday, then there's confusion... disbelief... grief...

I have no words for this... 

This news article seems to contain the gist of the situation...


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## Mayonnaise (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Yeah, still can't believe it myself.


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Why would someone shoot down an airliner?  It didn't look remotely military.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Why would someone shoot down an airliner?  It didn't look remotely military.



As ayattar stated, the rebels claimed they had shot down an Antonov [before hurriedly deleting their message when it was discovered an airliner went down]. 

The Antonov looks like a massive airliner, essentially. 

Perhaps that is what happened.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Commie Bat said:


> As Fallow said, for the altitude it was cruising it would give a similar radar signature to transport.  What I want to know is who thought it would be a wise idea to fly over an active combat zone.



The route the plane was on is a well-established 'sky-motorway', which was currently deemed safe for transports above 31,000ft.

Professional militants would be able to easily discern civilian from military aircraft, which suggests that a sophisticated missile system was used by an idiot...which is consistent with the hypothesis that Russia has been supplying the Rebels with Buk missiles.


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## Mayonnaise (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

WTH the news just said "tiada maklumat sahih".


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## Inciatus (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Fallowfox said:


> As ayattar stated, the rebels claimed they had shot down an Antonov [before hurriedly deleting their message when it was discovered an airliner went down].


Might you have a link or source?


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## Fallowfox (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Inciatus said:


> Might you have a link or source?



I saw it on BBC television, after Ayattar had told me about it.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



CerbrusNL said:


> How could something like this happen...




Happens when a crazy guy with nukes thinks it's his God given right to take land to create some Pan-Slavic nation.


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## Ayattar (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Inciatus said:


> Might you have a link or source?



I found it in the polish sector of the internet. Won't work for you.

Some time ago ukrainian separatists captured Buk missile system used by the both Russia and Ukraine. So I guess it won't be possible to tell who shot down the plane - russians, separatists or ukrainians.

Another theory is, that in the same region today flew russian presidential plane
Here you have a comparison

link

Comment: 
_â€œI can say that Putinâ€™s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at  the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m  echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there  at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft â€“ 15:44 Moscow time,â€ a  source told the news agency on condition of anonymity. 

â€œThe contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also  very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are  almost identicalâ€_


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## Inciatus (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Fallowfox said:


> I saw it on BBC television, after Ayattar had told me about it.


It is on their website now (I don't get BBC tv). It wasn't there before. Thank you.


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## Ayattar (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> Happens when a crazy guy with nukes thinks it's his God given right to take land to create some Pan-Slavic nation.



I can tell you, that sanctions are already killing russian economy. That's why Putin was already preparing to change the goverment in the autumn this year. That would, most probably lift the sanctions. With current situation and events tho, that wouldn't suffice, and it's possible (still, probability of it is small) that Putin will need to resign (possible that in a way he made a feint with Miediediev, dissaper for year or two and then come back). Untill today it's wasn't considered as an option.

Because of that I'd not exclude the possibility that it might been ukrainians who shot down the plane in an attempt to blame the russians or separatists. As you can see, in this equation every side has a lot to gain if they only manage to blame the other side.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> I can tell you, that sanctions are already killing russian economy. That's why Putin was already preparing to change the goverment in the autumn this year. That would, most probably lift the sanctions. With current situation and events tho, that wouldn't suffice, and it's possible (still, probability of it is small) that Putin will need to resign (possible that in a way he made a feint with Miediediev, dissaper for year or two and then come back). Untill today it's wasn't considered as an option.
> 
> Because of that I'd not exclude the possibility that it might been ukrainians who shot down the plane in an attempt to blame the russians or separatists. As you can see, in this equation every side has a lot to gain if they only manage to blame the other side.



The Web Brigades are already out in full mass saying now that it was a CIA op to target Putin's Air Force One. LiveLeak is tainted to the ying yang with them. Absolutely infuriating.


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## Ayattar (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Totall bullshit in my opinion.

I'm using my own reasoning and what my tutor teached me. I'm in a really priviledged position when it comes to russian (and ukrainian) inner politics, as my tutor was a general consul in Petersburg for five years, and he teaches me about it in the meanwhile (usually with a cup of tea in the hand when we're done with official things).

Yeah, if I didn't listen to him, I'd be in Rostov right now, and I'd spend there next eight months. Everyone was telling me: "no problem, it's safe, go", even my friend from Rostov. My tutor told me that I shouldn't go... And what? In less than a week they introduced a state of emergency on the whole border. Et cetera.


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## Inciatus (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> I found it in the polish sector of the internet. Won't work for you.


Translation programs work decently well in most cases to figure out stuff for the not english section of the internet.


> Some time ago ukrainian separatists captured Buk missile system used by the both Russia and Ukraine. So I guess it won't be possible to tell who shot down the plane - russians, separatists or ukrainians.
> 
> Another theory is, that in the same region today flew russian presidential plane


That would seem to imply the Ukranian forces would have shot down the plane. If in the case they meant to shoot the Russian presidential plane I don't see what they would stand to gain besides pissing most of the world off at them. If they were to have done that, I cannot imagine the west would really stand behind the Ukraine.

Though I suppose it could have been the rebels attempting to shoot down the Russian plane. If they were successful in pitting it on the Ukraine it would almost certainly provoke a large response from Russia in terms of support.



> Because of that I'd not exclude the possibility that it might been ukrainians who shot down the plane in an attempt to blame the russians or separatists. As you can see, in this equation every side has a lot to gain if they manage to blame the other side.


I don't really see how Ukraine would stand to benefit except showing these people are either violent or incompetant at operating equipment; the former seems to have already been demonstated.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Totall bullshit in my opinion.
> 
> I'm using my own reasoning and what my tutor teached me. I'm in a really priviledged position when it comes to russian (and ukrainian) inner politics, as my tutor was a general consul in Petersburg for five years, and he teaches me about it in the meanwhile (usually with a cup of tea in the hand when we're done with official things).
> 
> Yeah, if I didn't listen to him, I'd be in Rostov right now, and I'd spend there next eight months. Everyone was telling me: "no problem, it's safe, go", even my friend from Rostov. My tutor told me that I shouldn't go... And what? In less than a week they introduced a state of emergency on the whole border. Et cetera.



He's a smart guy. He doesn't put rose colored glasses to view the world. you're lucky to have him as a teacher.



Inciatus said:


> Translation programs work decently well in most  cases to figure out stuff for the not english section of the internet.
> 
> That would seem to imply the Ukranian forces would have shot down the  plane. If in the case they meant to shoot the Russian presidential plane  I don't see what they would stand to gain besides pissing most of the  world off at them. If they were to have done that, I cannot imagine the  west would really stand behind the Ukraine.
> 
> ...




The rebels (terrorists even before shooting it down)  in the Eastern part of Ukraine bragged on twitter that they shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane. It wasn't until they found out it was a passenger plane that they removed the bragging post from Twitter. And I guess the SBU intercepted communications of terrorists talking to their Russian military handlers about shooting down an aircraft that turned out to be a passenger plane. Also, Ukraine gains nothing by shooting down Putin's or a passenger plane as it would only validate a Russian invasion and Ukraine most definitely lose that war.


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## Ayattar (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Inciatus said:


> I don't really see how Ukraine would stand to benefit except showing these people are either violent or incompetant at operating equipment; the former seems to have already been demonstated.



Well, we all know that at least to some extent russians are supporting separatists. And that means, that they would be complicit in it and that translates to heavier sanctions for them. And, without russian support (as Russia would need to refrain the support in order to keep the economy running) separatists are less dangerous. Less funding et cetera, not to mention that currently there is a silent concession from the russian goverment for exporting russian weapons to Ukraine. That would need to change. So russian goverment may not be supporting separatists per se (it's done through shitton of intermediaries, so you won't catch them in the act), but in fact is supporting them by not taking any action and closing the border only from the russian side (so nobody is going to Russia but everyone can go to Ukraine)



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> He's a smart guy. He doesn't  put rose colored glasses to view the world. you're lucky to have him as a  teacher.



Aye, he's a great man. Like second father - and I met him by an accident.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Aye, he's a great man. Like second father - and I met him by an accident.




He did seem more like a mentor since you trusted his advice over the others. 

not to go off topic, but how did you meet him?


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## Ayattar (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Umm... Let's blame my translation. I'm far from perfection in using english 

Well, whatever. What I wrote here is only a theoretical speculation. It's better to believe in Ockhams' Razor, and since there were those twits and fb entries saying that separatists shot down ukrainian military plane, I'm placing my bet on them.

@ up: I'll reply using PM.


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## Inciatus (Jul 17, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> He did seem more like a mentor since you trusted his advice over the others.


Though that is sort of a fuzzy line where the two cross.


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

It was 'merica all along!


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## Gryphoneer (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Nope, it was the stupid and savage jackbooted thugs of the Putin Empire.


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## Ayattar (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Reliability of this source is equal to zero. If something, I'd faster believe in Igor Ivanovich Strielkov fb and vk ('B kontakte', russian equivalent of fb) entries regarding separatists shooting down Antonov.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Anything on the rumors that the Malaysian aircraft had military escort over the zone?


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## Gryphoneer (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Reliability of this source is equal to zero. If something, I'd faster believe in Igor Ivanovich Strielkov fb and vk ('B kontakte', russian equivalent of fb) entries regarding separatists shooting down Antonov.


Reliability?! Let me remind you that it was you who gave Fox News as a source and tried to support your ethnocentric, suspiciously racism-like attack on Ukraine's legitimacy with maps pulled from Google Image Search. 

And you dare question my reliability or that of the *goddamn New York Times*? Pot, meet motherfucking kettle.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Sorry, but when I clicked your source it took me to gizmodo, which was running an article on its header about penis size. So it made me very dubious. 

Here is the actual NY post. http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/...intercepted-audio-of-ukraine-separatists.html

Of course, I don't know whether it can be shown that the audio is not falsified.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> Reliability?! Let me remind you that it was you who gave Fox News as a source and tried to support your ethnocentric, suspiciously racism-like attack on Ukraine's legitimacy with maps pulled from Google Image Search.
> 
> And you dare question my reliability or that of the *goddamn New York Times*? Pot, meet motherfucking kettle.





> Ukraine released what it said was audio from phone calls between rebels  and Russian officers after the downing of Malaysia Airlines 17.


He DARES to question something released by one of the sides of the confrontation? Damn him! 
Also it is you that jumps at every chance to insult Putin and his ilk. Not that they are anywhere near to being "the good guys", but your reactions are seriously un-measured.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

The doubt about Gryphoneer's link was because he chose to present it via a website that had dubious content on it, rather than the original source. 

Now that the original source is posted, we can get over it.


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## Ayattar (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> Reliability?! Let me remind you that it was you who gave Fox News as a source and tried to support your ethnocentric, suspiciously racism-like attack on Ukraine's legitimacy with maps pulled from Google Image Search.
> 
> And you dare question my reliability or that of the *goddamn New York Times*? Pot, meet motherfucking kettle.



Now, my dear. In the first case, I already explained, that I'm not using your western sources that have their material not even from the second hand but from the third, or fourth hand. That's also why I have everything at least one hour before you do. And when it comes to simply informing about things like plane crash or tsunami, about something just happening, without grinding into details, Fox News is as reliable as every other source.

In the second case, my dear wannabe ukrainian expert. I spent last five years researching polish, lithuanian and ruthenian history, and even now I'm working on a Russian-Polish project/agreement on memorials and memory places (which was suspended today) and I can tell, that this image is accurate and reliable. You could check it yourself, but of course you didn't, because you're a lazy fatass with too high ego and no knowledge about the problem whatsoever and actually you might accidentaly educate yourself in that matter.

Info you quoted was released by one of the sides of the conflict, and could be as well prepared. In terms of reliability it doesn't withstand clashing it with ukraininan separatists leaders openly admitting that they shot down a plane in the same region. Here you have only more or less anonymous voices, and there you have date and full name of the poster. Unless they all had their accounts hacked. Heh.

Now, go, learn russian and spend some time on the classic literature about Ukraine and ukraininan history, because it's sad to look at you, pretending that you actually know something about that.


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## Machine (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Apparently AIDS researchers were aboard that flight.

A hundred eager humanitarians among 295 innocents, all gone.


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## Batty Krueger (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

This shit has everyone at my work in an uproar. I couldn't wait to go home yesterday because thats all they were talking about, then an argument broke out. Its really distracting hearing people yelling about terrorism and government conspiracies while dealing with venomous fish.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Batty Krueger said:


> This shit has everyone at my work in an uproar. I couldn't wait to go home yesterday because thats all they were talking about, then an argument broke out. Its really distracting hearing people yelling about terrorism and government conspiracies while dealing with venomous fish.


"Want to eat some puffer-fish while discussing the plane-stuff?
Oh and bonus points for terrorism.


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## Kalmor (Jul 18, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Please keep things civil, guys.


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## Sivi (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

There is so much war going on its scary.


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## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



			
				transformerrobot said:
			
		

> Oh, and who supplied the separatists with those missiles? The Kremlin of course.



They captured those missiles and missile launcher from ukrainian forces.



Sivi said:


> There is so much war going on its scary.



Not at all. You probably remember Yugoslavia. Only thing that worries me is that current conflict is right behind my border.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I wasn't aware the source of the missile launcher was known, or that a missile strike had been verified beyond all doubt. 

Does this mean Ukraine has verified the loss of a specific serial-number from their inventory, and that this specific serial-number has been identified as the cause of the crash?


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## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Fallowfox said:


> I wasn't aware the source of the missile launcher was known, or that a missile strike had been verified beyond all doubt.
> 
> Does this mean Ukraine has verified the loss of a specific serial-number from their inventory, and that this specific serial-number has been identified as the cause of the crash?



Yeah, ukrainian forces informed three weeks ago that they lost one BUK during the attack on one of their bases. It was also confirmed by the separatists, when they boasted about their booty on twitter

link

Transl: self-propelled earth-air rocket system BUK on the territory of the earth-air rocket regiment PWO 1402 captured by the DNR (DoNetska Republika)

Buk rocket system was also seen on the day of the attack in the city of Snizhne, few kilometers from the place of the catastrophe. Serial number wasn't cofirmed, but rocket explosion was confirmed by the USA sattelites (at least US representatives say so)

But, they could use 2K11 KRUG as well. So far no Kurgs were confirmed (or I didn't find any info) but afaik ukrainians still had them stored in the machine parks before the conflict or in the museums. And as we know so far separatist managed to successfully start IS-3, T-34 (so almost 80 years old tank) and T-54 that were museum exhibits, or placed on pedestals as monuments (I can provide videos if you're interested). Well, not to mention that decomissioned Krug is really cheap. Cost of the Krug missile system (without rockets) is only 40.000 $.

Well, what can I say. I really can't understand Malaysian Airlines decision to take the route over the warzone. Most of the flights were re-routed few weeks ago. I guess someone from the chief board would lost his monthly bonus.

And let me tell you this once again: Putin is the last person in the world that would want this plane to be shot down, because to him and to Russia that means only problems.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Yeah, ukrainian forces informed three weeks ago that they lost one BUK during the attack on one of their bases. It was also confirmed by the separatists, when they boasted about their booty on twitter
> 
> link
> 
> ...


Allegedly the flight exclusion zone (or whatever the proper name) only goes up to 32,000 feet, the shot down plane was at 33,000 feet. And it seems they went "meh, the seperatists hand held rockets can't hit that high!"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace


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## Inciatus (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Buk rocket system was also seen on the day of the attack in the city of Snizhne, few kilometers from the place of the catastrophe.


I tried searching for a fairly reliable source on the range of the weapon though was unsuccessful. However, most of the places I went to indicated a maximum range between 30,000m and 50,000m. It would not seem unreasonable the weapon could have been fired from Snizhne.


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## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Inciatus said:


> I tried searching for a fairly reliable source on the range of the weapon though was unsuccessful. However, most of the places I went to indicated a maximum range between 30,000m and 50,000m. It would not seem unreasonable the weapon could have been fired from Snizhne.



Thus I'm not taking any conclusions. There is still no info about the exact time when Buk was spotted in Snizhe, so that could mean, that launcher was relocated, or can as well mean nothing. Or can mean that someone made the photo in some other city and then posted it as it was seen in Snizhe. 

Still, it's interesting what ukrainian secret service is posting: that they have evidence that three russian specialists were transported to ukraine, and that after the plane got shot down two BUK rocket systems were spotted whilst crossing the russian border, going back to Russia, one with four rockets and second one with three rockets. Also, more separatist call recordings were 'issued'. But so far (afaik, didn't check it in last few hours) none of this 'clear evidence' was posted.

Everything, even the tiniest bit of info that was leaked after it showed that it was civil plane must be treated with extreme caution.


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## Batty Krueger (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Yeah, ukrainian forces informed three weeks ago that they lost one BUK during the attack on one of their bases. It was also confirmed by the separatists, when they boasted about their booty on twitter
> 
> link
> 
> ...


Goddamn.
The KRUG is one mean looking missile. I'd shit my pants if I saw that rolling down the street.


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## TransformerRobot (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia was helping the rebels hide evidence of their involvement in all of this. After all, Putin doesn't care about anyone besides himself. He's likely just trying to cover his own ass.


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## Fallowfox (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

The fact that international investigators are being blocked from entering the site, and that the black box is being sent to moscow, rather than a country which isn't involved, is very suspicious.


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## Torrijos-sama (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

In a parallel dimension, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just landed.


_too soon_


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Well, he has to do everything he can to make his "uprisings" seem genuine.  He's done an admirable job of it so far.

I have to admit that I care less about Russia taking things over than ISIS, purely because the Putin Administration isn't all about looting archaeological sites.

Oppression, warfare, and mass human suffering?  Eh, it's not me.   Tearing up a four-thousand-year-old-trash heap?  UNCONSCIONABLE.


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## Lomberdia (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Yeah, ukrainian forces informed three weeks ago that they lost one BUK during the attack on one of their bases. It was also confirmed by the separatists, when they boasted about their booty on twitter
> 
> link


Well damn, i thought bragging about illegal stuff on social networks was an american thing. Twitter and facebook solves more crimes than the actual police.


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

No, it's a moron thing.

Americans are just more common on the internet than in real life.  I think our population of morons is only slightly higher than the global average (countries where "lion attack" is still a leading cause of death are probably somewhat smarter, on average.)


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## Inciatus (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> No, it's a moron thing.
> 
> Americans are just more common on the internet than in real life.  I think our population of morons is only slightly higher than the global average (countries where "lion attack" is still a leading cause of death are probably somewhat smarter, on average.)


The number of morons is distributed pretty evenly. It happens that more Americans have access to the internet and social media sites and are far more prevalent especially in the English speaking part of it.

Also Fallow, might you have a source on the black-box bit?


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Well, I'm saying.  In a country with as many rounded edges and padded corners as America, Darwin can not select against morons as well.


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## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Oppression, warfare, and mass human suffering?  Eh, it's not me.   Tearing up a four-thousand-year-old-trash heap?  UNCONSCIONABLE.



Totally agreed. And to be honest I'm more concerned with israeli assault and planned manshaughter in Gaza than 295 random casualties of some rebels incompetence. Plus... It's really hard to like our eastern neighbours. Especially when they're treating Stepan Bandera as their national hero.



Inciatus said:


> Also Fallow, might you have a source on the black-box bit?



AFAIK it's info from yesterday/tommorow morning. Today Putin had a phone call with Merkel and they agreed that an international commission should research the case. Though I don't know how they want to do that if this territory is controlled by the rebels (or, as we tend then to call, separatists)


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## Inciatus (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Totally agreed. And to be honest I'm more concerned with israeli assault and planned manshaughter in Gaza than 295 random casualties of some rebels incompetence. Plus... It's really hard to like our eastern neighbours. Especially when they're treating Stepan Bandera as their national hero.


Isn't Belarus your eastern neighbor?


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> No, it's a moron thing.
> 
> Americans are just more common on the internet than in real life.  I think our population of morons is only slightly higher than the global average (countries where "lion attack" is still a leading cause of death are probably somewhat smarter, on average.)



No. you are just on english speaking websites so you see more "morons" that are American than you see of other nationalities.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Inciatus said:


> Isn't Belarus your eastern neighbor?



Both. Belarus and Belarussian are artificial beings and it's hard to feel any grief towards them. The only nations that we are totally ok with are Czech and Slovaks... Suprisingly, Germans are also ok, as they were able to threw away their past and begin anew. But when it comes to Russia and Ukraine... God damn, if you only knew russian I'd link you few articles about this catastrophe, so you could read what they're writing about us***. Stalins (who's still treated as national hero) legacy is still alive and it's really sad. And it makes my work really hard. Simple example - it's absolutely ok when I'm speaking russian, but when I need to show my ID or passport whilst being in Russia very often I need to pay double or triple the price, when for example buying tickets.

* - some russians came up with a theory that it's polish fault that this flight has changed it's route. You can read more here:
http://politikus.ru/events/24650-mnenie-polsha-zameshana-v-katastrofe-malaziyskogo-boinga.html
Basically: it's polish fault that this flight had to change the route, so it's our fault that the plane was shot down. And I mean - wtf?
Comments: 
Poles, always cocksucking around!
Poles, always scheming behind our back!
Poles, we still remember that you burned down Moscow
etc
Not to mention that most of their accusations are bullshit, as Moscow was burned down by the russian soldier, and there were only 300 Poles together with false tsar Dymirt, and 20.000 Russians. Duh. But who cares?

I mean... Seriously, it was looking that after the castrophe of polish Tupolev in Smolensk everything was going on the right track... But it ain't.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Belarussians are artificial beings?  Like as in Androids?



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> No. you are just on english speaking websites so you see more "morons" that are American than you see of other nationalities.



Why on Earth did you put the word "morons" in sarcasm quotes?

And I stand by my assertion that its safer to be a moron in the US (and Western Europe, Japan, and a few other places. . . no, Australia has crocs) than on the world average.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Belarussians are artificial beings?  Like as in Androids?



Country created after 1990, without any noticeable past and without any events to blame for. Well it's a short version... a lot to explain.


----------



## Brazen (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Belarussians are artificial beings?  Like as in Androids?



He's just mad they never gave Poland back the territory captured by Stalin after the USSR collapsed.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Brazen said:


> He's just mad they never gave Poland back the territory captured by Stalin after the USSR collapsed.



You mean totally useless territory without any natural resources and with rampant poverty? No, thanks.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

But Poland got Silesia and Pomerania.  Surely mountains and beaches are better than swamps?


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> But Poland got Silesia and Pomerania.  Surely mountains and beaches are better than swamps?



Yeah, after 700 years we got them back. And sure. Infrastructure was already on the german (<3 Prussia) level and Silesia had (and still has) coal, iron and copper. So screw poverty-infested swaps, who needs them.


----------



## Brazen (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Yeah, after 700 years we got them back. And sure. Infrastructure was already on the german (<3 Prussia) level and Silesia had (and still has) coal, iron and copper. So screw poverty-infested swaps, who needs them.



So, so mad.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Brazen said:


> So, so mad.



Sure. For you? Always


----------



## Brazen (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Sure. For you? Always



Funny joke, I'll make sure to share it with the Pollack who cleans the toilets at the office.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

No problem mate

Now, if you could stop derailing the thread.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

EDIT:  Oh, FINE, no more derailing, then.

Putin bad.  Fire BAAAD.


----------



## Inciatus (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> But when it comes to Russia and Ukraine... God damn, if you only knew russian I'd link you few articles about this catastrophe, so you could read what they're writing about us***


Fortunately the modern world has translators that work quite well for text based things.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

And they ain't worth a damn  But you can begin with the linked article.


----------



## Cassedy (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

/edit


----------



## Cassedy (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> It's really hard to like our eastern neighbours.


I heard Poland wants some of Ukrainian land back too 
http://imgur.com/SeG0jsq


----------



## Fallowfox (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Both. Belarus and Belarussian are artificial beings and it's hard to feel any grief towards them. The only nations that we are totally ok with are Czech and Slovaks... Suprisingly, Germans are also ok, as they were able to threw away their past and begin anew. But when it comes to Russia and Ukraine... God damn, if you only knew russian I'd link you few articles about this catastrophe, so you could read what they're writing about us***. Stalins (who's still treated as national hero) legacy is still alive and it's really sad. And it makes my work really hard. Simple example - it's absolutely ok when I'm speaking russian, but when I need to show my ID or passport whilst being in Russia very often I need to pay double or triple the price, when for example buying tickets.
> 
> * - some russians came up with a theory that it's polish fault that this flight has changed it's route. You can read more here:
> http://politikus.ru/events/24650-mnenie-polsha-zameshana-v-katastrofe-malaziyskogo-boinga.html
> ...



I recall, when a meteorite broke up and fell to earth near the Urals, that there was a widely circulated Russian conspiracy that other European nations had been building so many wind-farms in order to 'blow earth off-course into the asteroid's path'. 

...yeah.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> I heard Poland wants some of Ukrainian land back too
> http://imgur.com/SeG0jsq



Yeah, luckily there aren't too many of them and they're visible mostly in the internet. We have exactly the same rights to Lviv as Germans have to Danzig, Czechs have to Breslau, and Jews had to Israel.
That means none.
Not to mention how it would totally ruin our economy.



Fallowfox said:


> I recall, when a meteorite broke up and fell to  earth near the Urals, that there was a widely circulated Russian  conspiracy that other European nations had been building so many  wind-farms in order to 'blow earth off-course into the asteroid's path'.
> 
> ...yeah.




Cassedy, I'm not saying that we are saints. There is hatred on the both sides, and I can't really tell if it's stronger on yours or on mine... I'm working on it, to bring us closer, but I'm afraid it's impossible, not untill our generation dies off (yeah, 1980-2000 generation, not our fathers, as our generation is also heavily contaminated). But as far as I can tell, your side has a lil bit more work to do.


----------



## Cassedy (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Cassedy, I'm not saying that we are saints. There is hatred on the both sides, and I can't really tell if it's stronger on yours or on mine... I'm working on it, to bring us closer, but I'm afraid it's impossible, not untill our generation dies off (yeah, 1980-2000 generation, not our fathers, as our generation is also heavily contaminated). But as far as I can tell, your side has a lil bit more work to do.


That's why I stopped stepping up for my country. I'm not sure anymore myself. Maybe all the flak we're getting is actually justified. There're suddenly so many people here, who fell into blind patriotism. It's hard to keep nodding and smiling when your boss keeps saying how Boeing passengers "deserved" to be shot down, because they flew over war zone. That passengers somehow should have predicted their destiny and refused to board the plane. "Because that's what I would do !" says the boss.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Sounds like the wankers who are always talking about how they'd stop a mad gunman with their fists of fury.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> That's why I stopped stepping up for my country. I'm not sure anymore myself. Maybe all the flak we're getting is actually justified. There're suddenly so many people here, who fell into blind patriotism. It's hard to keep nodding and smiling when your boss keeps saying how Boeing passengers "deserved" to be shot down, because they flew over war zone. That passengers somehow should have predicted their destiny and refused to board the plane. "Because that's what I would do !" says the boss.



I can see why your boss isn't a top HIV and AIDS researcher. He probably thinks it's victims' faults for being born by infected mothers.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Country created after 1990, without any noticeable past and without any events to blame for. Well it's a short version... a lot to explain.


Psst, any country is ultimately artificial.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> Psst, any country is ultimately artificial.



...I think you're missing the point?


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> That's why I stopped stepping up for my country.  I'm not sure anymore myself. Maybe all the flak we're getting is  actually justified. There're suddenly so many people here, who fell into  blind patriotism. It's hard to keep nodding and smiling when your boss  keeps saying how Boeing passengers "deserved" to be shot down, because  they flew over war zone. That passengers somehow should have predicted  their destiny and refused to board the plane. "Because that's what I  would do !" says the boss.



Same here. I'm really sick of hearing how Smolensk was russians fault and how all ruskies are evil manslaughtering bastards. To be honest the only thing I really can't stand in Russia is glorifying Stalin and stalinism. Everything else... well, it's just politics. And aye, you're a savage country, but that doesn't mean that people are worse. You're just... different. And you got really fucked up by the history.



Gryphoneer said:


> Psst, any country is ultimately artificial.



Oh my god, I just jizzed my pants, look, now he's trying to undermine me with semantics


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I still prefer to believe that the Byelorussians all look like Brent Spiner.

EDIT:  Except Lukaschenko, of course.  That dude totes looks like Dr. Phil.


----------



## Cassedy (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Not sure it this was mentioned already ... But there was another aircrash over Urkaine, in 2001 
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20011004-0


----------



## Inpw (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> Not sure it this was mentioned already ... But there was another aircrash over Urkaine, in 2001
> http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20011004-0



Strange find. :/
Although I'm not one for conspiracy theories, this will fuel something somewhere.


----------



## Inpw (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Accidentally shooting down a civilian aircraft is horrendously negligent in my opinion. Even mistaking it for a enemy military aircraft by an entire launch crew just raises questions on how exactly the plane in the above article was identified. The issue is now with the Malaysian plane if accidental, someone gets blamed and nununu... but you can't reverse time. What exactly is going on in military posts like these in order to prevent this type of disaster? Shouldn't guns blazing be the last resort?


----------



## funky3000 (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Another Malaysia Airlines, this time confirmed a shootdown?

Something tells me that other one wasn't lost, if there's any kind of shady trend going on.

I bet someone's gonna find a song that describes this accurately, like the last crash, and claim illuminati on the singers.


----------



## Inciatus (Jul 19, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



funky3000 said:


> Another Malaysia Airlines, this time confirmed a shootdown?
> 
> Something tells me that other one wasn't lost, if there's any kind of shady trend going on.
> 
> I bet someone's gonna find a song that describes this accurately, like the last crash, and claim illuminati on the singers.


Good luck tying those two together without using up the world's supply of tin.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Fallowfox said:


> ...I think you're missing the point?





Ayattar said:


> Oh my god, I just jizzed my pants, look, now he's trying to undermine me with semantics :sad:


Glib, ethnocentric rhetoric a lÃ¡ "country X possesses no legitimacy because they have no history, i.e. they're young" misses the fucking point.

Concepts like "nation" and "state" are inherently social constructs with utterly arbitrary rules of inclusion. Was the Austro-Hungarian Empire "artificial" or "illegitimate" because it encompassed multiple ethnicities and "nations"? What are your criteria for this?

If a peoples living on territory X for many, many generations were given an own sovereign state after the last one they were part of collapsed, would you call that country "artificial" or "illegitimate"? *Ukraine has a right of existence and a right to Crimea*.

And anyway, the entire rhetoric misses the point that incipient nation-states will never have a history _if you deny them to build one up_.

(Not to mention that most who use this rhetoric only recognize the "legitimacy" and proud history of the Aryan master race...)


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Well, a little over half of the people in the Crimea speak Russian.  It's. . . debatable, I should think.  Which is precisely why Putin started there-- it's plausible.  In a different situation, I could imagine a plebiscite being held, not under occupation by "so-not-Russian" forces, and Crimea still voting to join Russia.  I can't say for sure that'd happen, but it's a possibility.

But now that that's done with, Putin has everyone used to the idea that bits of Ukraine would rather be part of Russia, and there's even people acting as though Ukraine has no right to exist and all should belong to Russia, because four hundred years ago the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian was much more vague.  They're obviously, laughably wrong, but by taking Crimea, which is more Russian-speaking than anything else, first, Putin has pushed in just enough doubt to make anything in Ukraine seem like it's up for debate.


----------



## Feste (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



funky3000 said:


> Another Malaysia Airlines, this time confirmed a shootdown?
> 
> Something tells me that other one wasn't lost, if there's any kind of shady trend going on.
> 
> I bet someone's gonna find a song that describes this accurately, like the last crash, and claim illuminati on the singers.



I'm assuming someone's going to blame Mossad on this, considering how it corresponds with recent Israeli Conflict events. In fact, I'm surprised I haven't seen more of this stuff, considering how much these type of accusations like to creep around the Internet. As long as its anti-Israel, people love to gobble this shit up...><....

As for the crash, I'm assuming some incompetent rebels were given the missiles, especially after listening to the tape. I do wonder if Putin can back away so easily though, considering the support he has in Russia. I'm curious to see if he goes down with the ship on this one, or if he could find a way out of it without destroying the Russian Economy. At least this will likely mean the end of Russian Intervention in the Ukraine on the heavy side. While the crypto-Nazi elements worry me, I'd rather have the Western side dominate than the Eastern side considering the Reactionary bent in general Russia is going through.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> Glib, ethnocentric rhetoric a lÃ¡ "country X possesses no legitimacy because they have no history, i.e. they're young" misses the fucking point.
> 
> Concepts like "nation" and "state" are inherently social constructs with utterly arbitrary rules of inclusion. Was the Austro-Hungarian Empire "artificial" or "illegitimate" because it encompassed multiple ethnicities and "nations"? What are your criteria for this?
> 
> ...



...I didn't construct any argument concerning Ukraine, or Belarus. I said I thought your comment, that 'all states are synthetic', wasn't relevant- because it was a semantic comment that didn't address any of the views Ayattar was espousing about Belarus.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

No, Austro-Hungarian empire consisted of few more or less coherent nations with the past history and visible indicators such as language, ethos, a sense of community and national consciousness as well self-identification and past history as a sovereign countries. Bellarussians didn't have most of those features untill the interwar period (1917-1939), when those initially got accentuated by the USRR and Polish opression. Untill that time they had only elite (that emerged in late XIX century) and people that weren't identyfying themselves with any special nationality (to put it short "Who are you? I'm local." type of mentality). Still, it was hard to call Bellarussians a coherent nation untill the II WW (and for a pretty long period after it). Meh, what I am saying, Bellarus is still in the process of creating determinants of self-consciousness and self-identification. And because of that, because Bellarusians are a totally new entity without history it's impossible to blame them for anything. In their short modern history they weren't able to conduct any organised and massive anti-polish actions (like ukrainians and their UPA. There is still a lot of people who remember them doing things like this). Thus jokes like "How do you make a Belarussian? - You mix 3 doses of Russian, one dose of Ukrainian, one dose of Pole and one dose of Lithuanian".
This is what I meant when I said that it's impossible for me to feel any grief towards Bellarusians. If something, we don't blame Belarussians, instead we blame soviets, and soviets = Russians

Now, I didn't mention Danzig/Gdansk, Wroclaw/Breslau, LwÃ³w/Lviv and Israel/Palestine without a reason. Every nation, ie. respectively Germans, Czech and Poles have historical claims but no ethnic claims on those cities. Hence, historical claims are totally negligible. Same was for the Jews and Palestine/Israel territory, as before the artificial and unrighteous creation of the Israel there were no Jews on that territory, and they had only historical claims. Bellarusians on the other hand in 1991, when declaring their indepedence from the USRR had ethnical claims and no historical claims, but that doesn't matter as etnic claims are always stronger.

I never said that Ukraine has no right for existence. Ukrainians are an old nation dating themselves back to XVI century (before that they identified themselves as Ruthenians, and it's not the same) with a tradition of national movements and struggle for indepedence. Bellarusians on the other hand don't have it as they identified themselves as Lithuanians, Ruthenians or Mucovites/Russians for a longer period of time, and there almost weren't any pro-Belarussian national and/or indepedence movements here.

Now, as for the Crimea, both sides have both etnic and historical claims. Sorry, but if we skip international agreements then russian rights to Crimea are exactly the same or maybe even stronger than ukrainian (russian 'minority' on Crimea is de facto a majority and they have longer history of possesing Crimea)

But please, continue. It's amusing.



Lucius_Felix said:


> [...] because four hundred years ago the  distinction between Russian and Ukrainian was much more vague.



I wouldn't say that. In my opinion it was exactly the opposite, as Ukrainians ('cossacks' in that period) emerged in the borders of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and they, whether they like it now or not, mentally were closer to Poles, as they inherited a huge part of our mentality. It's really amusing when I'm reading for example memories about Chmielnitsky and other leaders of ukrainian uprisings. In mentality and manner here was no difference between them and an average polish magnate. And same goes for simple cossacks. They got closer to russian way of being and mentality later, in the XVIII century, in the Great Imperial Russia era. In fact, for some time they were a huge problem for Russia, as they were spreading the plague of democracy, squabbling and personal integrity within the Russian Empire. Russians solved that by the mass resettlements, thus right now Ukrainians are a lot closer to Russians than they were in XVI century.


----------



## cobalt-blue (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Commie Bat said:


> Events like it are not as rare as one would hope.



Yes you are correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Calling all the Ukrainians "Cossacks" is like calling Mexicans "conquistadors."


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

They were the first who called themselves Ukrainians. And if you don't want to accept this reasoning, then your previous statement is false, as in XVI there were only Ruthenians. And as for the differences in the language, mentality, culture et cetera, they were also noticeable as Russians (Mucovites) evolved under the tatar domination and Ruthenians got dominated by the Lithuanians, Hungarians and Poles.

Also, remember that all the time we're speaking about 10-20% of the society as most of the illiterate mob is negligible.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

What previous statement?  That the East Slavic people weren't neatly divided between Ukrainians and Russians fur hundred years ago?  Because as far as I can tell, you're _agreeing_ with me on that point.


Though your assertion that peasants are negligible confounds me.  If peasants didn't count for something, England would be a Francophone nation.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Though your assertion that peasants are negligible confounds me.  If peasants didn't count for something, England would be a Francophone nation.



Well, they were speaking ruthenian/polish/lithuanian/armenian or tatar but they weren't identyfying themselves with a nation connected with their language. They were refering to themselves simply as "locals". As for the Poland rise of the patriotic feelings and self-consciousness among the peasants is connected with the loss of the indepedence and uprisings, the end of XVIII/first half of XIX century. As for the peasants fighting against the agressors before (so Sweden, Russia, Turkey/Tatars) they did that to defend the christian faith. As for the Ukrainians in XVI and XVII century peasants were taking a part in the uprisings because of feudal (noble farm) opression, and because of religion (it's complicated) not because of 'national' reasons. There is a lot of material on that in the sources.

That's why for this region of the world mob is negligible, and when researching national consciousness we're focusing on the nobles (so mentioned 10-20% of population).



Lucius_Felix said:


> What previous statement?  That the East  Slavic people weren't neatly divided between Ukrainians and Russians fur  hundred years ago?  Because as far as I can tell, you're _agreeing_ with me on that point.


The division became visible in XV century. Not between the mob of course but between the elite. 

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU end of the off-topic


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Oh, OK, I thought you were saying the mass of the people had nothing to do with determining language and ethnicity (which are related to, but not the same as, nationalism.)

Austrians, Germans, and half of Switzerland are not readily distinguishable on linguistic or ethnic grounds (it's more of a gradient,) but they certainly have different nationalities.

EDIT: An even better example would be that, if language were the same as nationalism, the Lowland Scots and English would be one nation, and the Highland Scots another.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Language and culture becomes the grounds for establishing identity. Nationalism is built around the perception of aggression against such an identity, where group A speaks one language and has one culture, and group B has another language and another culture and wishes to encroach upon group A, passively or aggressively, and group A reacts, and seeks to establish an institution that reinforces group A in areas where group A is the majority or in control of, and destabilize the influence of group B in all areas where group A is the majority.

Often, as Ayattar has pointed out, Nationalism is mostly promoted by those who are in power where one group is the majority. These are the intelligentsia, petite bourgeois, and bourgeois, using the "people they defend" to play their little game of increasing their own power.

For the likes of Finland, where family got the fuck out of, the Finnish nationalists were the bourgeois. Clergy, Academia, cultural figures (Sibelius) and parts of the Russian imperial apparatus (Like Mannerheim), who formed the bulk of the "White Finns" in the civil war. With family who were largely socialists, they moved, and fomented shit elsewhere (Minneapolis teamster's strike, FTW).

The peasantry don't add into it.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

It is not always quite so conspiracy-theory as all that; the top twenty per cent generally did not collude and decide to manufacture nationality, with some possible exceptions.

I think language is a good deal more important than culture in establishing nationality.  Consider the Americas.  Most countries there are a baffling mishmosh of African, American, and European cultures and genes, but nationalism is nonetheless very strong.


You know, if the nazis understood good livestock breeding, they would have invited people from races all over the world to come father children for the Reich, rather than bottlenecking their breeding programs on superficial and non-beneficial traits.  Maybe some of their crimes could have been prevented if I could go back in time and explain hybrid vigor to Hitler?


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Being American is hella confusing, though, culturally speaking, unless you are buying into the consumerist, civic-nationalist "American culture".

How can you feel good about shit when you're 8 different things, all of which hated each other to some degree, and some of which came here under indentured servitude or were corralled up into reservations collectively by your other descendants? Or when the things you're supposed to take pride in happened before your family even got here? Was it the thought that counts?


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I thought the things we Americans (as in USA) were supposed to feel good about was our civil liberties?

I don't feel bad that my ancestry is Comanche and Comanche-killers.  I kinda see it as a sign of progress that my great grandparents boned.


----------



## Inciatus (Jul 20, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU end of the off-topic


But the off-topic is much more interesting than the actual topic. Also this is or at least used to be the off-topic section.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Austrians, Germans, and half of Switzerland are not readily distinguishable on linguistic or ethnic grounds (it's more of a gradient,) but they certainly have different nationalities.


Tell that to an Austrian...


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

What, tell an Austrian that they speak German?  Or tell them that they're not Germans?

That no self-respecting Austrian wants to be called a German, despite being part of the same language continuum, is my POINT, if you'd bother to actually read what I say.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> What, tell an Austrian that they speak German?  Or tell them that they're not Germans?
> 
> That no self-respecting Austrian wants to be called a German, despite being part of the same language continuum, is my POINT, if you'd bother to actually read what I say.



That they are indistinguishable from Germans.

Also reminds me of a friend from vienna saying:
"Do I sound as weird to you as you sound to me?"

Also, since you are listing "Freistaat Texas" as your location: Do you speak high-german? Ever compared it to Bavarian? I wouldn't even call that "linguistic indistinguishable"


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Exactly.  Despite long-term attempts to standardize German, the language still constitutes a continuum rather than a single language.  France has been more successful, pushing non-standard dialects into decline.  As Bavarian is to Hannover, so is Austrian to Bavarian.

Now with visual aids!  Notice that the border between Austria and Switzerland Bavaria isn't the dividing line of the dialect.

EDIT:  Not sure why everyone assumes I speak Joiman.  I barely English, let alone multiple languages.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Exactly.  Despite long-term attempts to standardize German, the language still constitutes a continuum rather than a single language.  France has been more successful, pushing non-standard dialects into decline.  As Bavarian is to Hannover, so is Austrian to Bavarian.
> 
> Now with visual aids!  Notice that the border between Austria and Switzerland Bavaria isn't the dividing line of the dialect.


Which explains the German/Bavarian divide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weißwurstäquator


Lucius_Felix said:


> EDIT:  Not sure why everyone assumes I speak Joiman.  I barely English, let alone multiple languages.


If "Joiman'" is supposed to be "German": Because your "Location" is in German.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Well, one word of it.  Texas is. . . Caddo, I think?

I am given to understand Texas and Bayern are somewhat analogous-- a large, southern State with delusions of nationhood, where Bock Beer is available.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Well, one word of it.  Texas is. . . Caddo, I think?


"Der Freistaat" is German, "Texas" can be.  (like both German and  English call Germany's capital city "Berlin" (as opposed  "KÃ¶ln"/"Cologne" for example)


Lucius_Felix said:


> I am given to understand Texas and Bayern are somewhat analogous-- a large, southern State with delusions of nationhood, where Bock Beer is available.


A southern state, that likes to talk about secession, and has conservative politics.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I live in the Texas hill country. There are Germans here, mostly 48'ers


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Strange how a place settled by liberals is now a conservative stronghold.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> Strange how a place settled by liberals is now a conservative stronghold.



Yeah, and funny how Iceland, a country settled by murderous Nordic mariners, is now a peaceful nation. :V

Are you seriously expecting political trends to be absolutely linear?


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Are you seriously taking the things I say seriously?

Also, I don't trust Iceland.  As soon as we take our eyes off them, they'll be murdering our monks, just you wait and see!


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Torrijos-sama said:


> I live in the Texas hill country. There are Germans here, mostly 48'ers


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/02/article-2408591-1B95A350000005DC-125_964x720.jpg
(Dailymail hosting a US-Census-Bureau map)


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

The disappointing thing about that map is it doesn't express all the Czechs and Slovaks who also mill around in Central Texas.

I wonder if there's any trend as to _which_ Germans settled where?  I mean, did Prussians prefer Nebraska?  I believe the Pennsylvania dutch were from Hannover or Hesse or one of those H places, but I haven't looked it up.  Descendants of Bohemian Germans are fairly common in my county.

Yoopers being Finns explains a lot.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> *Are you seriously taking the things I say seriously?*
> 
> Also, I don't trust Iceland.  As soon as we take our eyes off them, they'll be murdering our monks, just you wait and see!



Yes.


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## Batty Krueger (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Fuck Columbus Day,  its all about Leif Erikson day!


----------



## Calemeyr (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Meanwhile, in Ron Paul Land!!! 

http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-paul-defends-russia-after-malaysian-plane-crash-2014-7
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/21/ron-paul-us-partly-blame-malaysia-airlines-crash/

"Ukraine did it because I am Ron Paul, dammit! And US militarism bad!" A libertarian supporting Russia. What.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jul 21, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

God= [(Ron Paul)(Dennis Kucinich)]^(Lyndon LaRouche)


----------



## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Calemeyr said:


> Meanwhile, in Ron Paul Land!!!
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-paul-defends-russia-after-malaysian-plane-crash-2014-7
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/21/ron-paul-us-partly-blame-malaysia-airlines-crash/
> ...



And I can tell you there is a lot of division going because of it. But some, if not most, Libertarians do not concern themselves with Putin for two reasons.

1) Criticizing Putin and Russian foreign policy does nothing to further libertarianism in the US. 

2) A lot get their info from RT and PressTV. Libertarians, depending on who they are, pride themselves on getting alternative news from areas of the world that are considered enemies of the West.

This has caused me to feel numb about issues that I used to be very passionate about it. The enemy of my enemy has always been a thing I saw prevalent within libertarianism, but I didn't know how bad it was until this thing with Ukraine happened.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy.  Nothing more.


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

News from the propaganda front:
RT (firmly pro russian) on the accusation of plundering
http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-plane-photo-perverted/

German (Austrian, to be exact) interview (ORF)
where the local reporter disagrees with Kerries claims of mishandling of the bodies.
http://apasfftp1.apa.at/oe1/news/00022F5E.MP3


----------



## Calemeyr (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Torrijos-sama said:


> God= [(Ron Paul)(Dennis Kucinich)]^(Lyndon LaRouche)


God loses elections or is never nominated?


----------



## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Calemeyr said:


> God loses elections or is never nominated?


Did any Religion (especially the currently big ones: Christianity, Islam) ever strike you as particularly democratic?


----------



## Brazen (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Calemeyr said:


> Meanwhile, in Ron Paul Land!!!
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-paul-defends-russia-after-malaysian-plane-crash-2014-7
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/21/ron-paul-us-partly-blame-malaysia-airlines-crash/
> ...





> â€œThey will not report that the crisis in Ukraine  started late last year, when EU and U.S.-supported protesters plotted  the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych,â€ he  said. â€œWithout U.S.-sponsored â€˜regime change,â€™ it is unlikely that  hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would  the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened.â€




Questionable, but we do know that the National Endowment for Democracy (look them up) gave 5bn to Maidan protestors, so the US certainly had a role to play in that little bit of regime change.



> Mr. Paul argued that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine  have anything to gain by shooting down a plane full of civilians. He  did say, however, that â€œthe Ukrainian government has much to gain by  pinning the attack on Russia.â€



Sound logic, I have no objections.



> Mr. Paul compared the situation to last year when the Obama administration claimed the Assad government in Syria used poison gas against civilians in Ghouta.
> 
> â€œU.S.  claims led us to the brink of another war in the Middle East,â€ he said.  â€œAt the last minute public opposition forced Obama to back down â€” and  we have learned since then that U.S. claims about the gas attack were  false.â€



Correct

Ron Paul 2016


​


----------



## Gryphoneer (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> But some, if not most, Libertarians do not concern themselves with Putin for two reasons.


There's only one reason: Libertarianism is one big fraud.

Liberetardians don't give a flying fuck about the little man's rights and liberties, they're only cogs in a social engineering apparatus meant to weaken governmental regulation and oversight in favor of onepercenters.

If they actually put their money where their mouth is they would go to the real  hotspots of governmental oppression like Belarus, Iran, North Korea or _Russia_ instead of staying here in our comparatively paradisical liberal  democracies and holding hackathons.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

There's a lot of libertarians who ARE little guys, Gryphoneer.

Never underestimate the attraction of "damn the man."


----------



## Feste (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> There's a lot of libertarians who ARE little guys, Gryphoneer.
> 
> Never underestimate the attraction of "damn the man."



Aren't those people usually theocratic? Like the long-bearded guy from the Idaho debates.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

No, they aren't?  I don't know what you want from me, but I know several people in shit jobs who vote libertarian, because they don't want the government taking over their lives.

I think the Libertarian party is apt to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but they DO have an appeal to people besides oil magnates.


----------



## Feste (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> No, they aren't?  I don't know what you want from me, but I know several people in shit jobs who vote libertarian, because they don't want the government taking over their lives.
> 
> I think the Libertarian party is apt to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but they DO have an appeal to people besides oil magnates.



I'm just saying from my personal experience. I come from a very conservative area, and those I know who support the libertarian cause are usually very religious and don't like the government because "it's evil" in a religious sense. It may not necessarily be the actual reason they go libertarian i.e. they may generally believe in it economically in their limited understanding, but I just find the people who are libertarian usually support a more religiously focused society if they are not in a high income bracket.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 22, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

The two seem like they should be mutually-exclusive to me, trading one master for another.  But of course, not_making_sense never stopped any political movement.

But no, there are people who don't want to be dominated by government OR church.  I am one such person.  I haven't been a Libertarian since I was a teenager, so I don't think that should be held against me.


----------



## Hakar Kerarmor (Jul 23, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Who do you want to be dominated by?


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 23, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Wikipedia.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Jul 23, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> There's a lot of libertarians who ARE little guys, Gryphoneer.


Yep, or as the powerful usually call them, useful idiots. The one half are what's commonly called low information voters who fall for their lies because they don't know better, the other are toadies who believe they can climb up the career ladder by sucking up to the CEOs and hedge fund managers.



Ayattar said:


> In their short modern history they weren't able  to conduct any organised and massive anti-polish actions (like  ukrainians and their UPA. There is still a lot of people who remember them doing things like this).


So  that explains your virulently anti-Ukrainian attitude and Putin  fanboyism. I guess it's easy to develop hatred towards any random group  if you make yourself believe they share responsibility for WWII  atrocities committed by distant ancestors.

Also, a big fat NSFW tag would've been nice. I really didn't wish to see that.



> the artificial and unrighteous creation of the Israel


Oh, so you're one of _those _guys. That explains many things!


----------



## ceacar99 (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



			
				Gryphoneer said:
			
		

> Oh, so you're one of those guys. That explains many things!



*Raises finger* I might point out that historically speaking Jewish people in the province and eventually British protectorate of Palestine lived in harmony. Then with the rise of the Zionist movement coinciding with the Brits deciding that it was a good idea to try to encourage their Jewish subjects to Palestine you had a ticking time bomb. Many new Jewish immigrants desired to create a new Jewish state and the local Muslim population began to recognize this. Finally just before the second world war Britain halted Jewish immigration to the protectorate because of demands from local Muslim leaders. Eventually the Zionists led a revolt fighting both the local Muslims AND the British. When the British withdrew and the Arab nations fell upon Palestine to win the war and carve it into pieces ultimately the Jewish rebels won the day when supplied with weapons by the USSR. 

This all doesn't mean we should abandon and destroy Israel. It just means that they sorta took their current home by force. What bothers me honestly these days is how Hamas kidnaps and murders people as well as indiscriminately bombards civilian populations on purpose. When Israel responds with force that is far more controlled, regimented and targeted they somehow are called the "bad guy".


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> So  that explains your virulently anti-Ukrainian attitude and Putin  fanboyism. I guess it's easy to develop hatred towards any random group  if you make yourself believe they share responsibility for WWII  atrocities committed by distant ancestors.



I'm neither pro- nor anti-ukrainian. I'm just trying being obiective, as far as my knowledge allows me to, explaining why some of the phenomena are possible and/or are happening. I'm sorry that I even tried to explain history as it was and not in the western mindlessly pro-ukrainian version. But I don't care. Poles, Russians and Ukrainians alike don't like my opinions because I tend to be obiective, ending somewhere in the middle, so why should I care about a random German who has proven to be extremely ignorant in that matter?



Gryphoneer said:


> Also, a big fat NSFW tag would've been nice. I really didn't wish to see that.



Of course, it's better to be ignorant, close your eyes and mumble "it can't be true, it didn't happen, it can't be true, it didn't happen" and don't draw any conclusions.



Gryphoneer said:


> Oh, so you're one of _those _guys. That explains many things!



Ok, then just wait and let me take my wendish brethren and immigrate to invade northern Germany under the aegis of UN. There we will proclaim Kingdom of Wends enclosing all the germans in concentration camps and isolated settlements. After all there might be over 700 years (so still 2,5 times less time than since the bar-kochba revolt) since you killed or assimilated most of them, but there still are some, plus there are a lot of Serbs, their distand relatives.  Or maybe we should ask Turks to proclaim Sultanate of Berlin and then kick out all Germans?
How do you like it? Not any different from what Jews did in Palestine.

I can't comprehend how can anyone hold any claims on the land after almost two millenias of time and how anyone could support that.



ceacar99 said:


> This all doesn't mean we should abandon and  destroy Israel. It just means that they sorta took their current home by  force. What bothers me honestly these days is how Hamas kidnaps and  murders people as well as indiscriminately bombards civilian populations  on purpose. When Israel responds with force that is far more  controlled, regimented and targeted they somehow are called the "bad  guy".



Well, you already answered your question. That's because _they sorta took their current home by  force_. I'm sorry, but I can't and I won't support any country build by the invaders who are opressing indigenes. And yes, I agree that Israel is one big problem, because when it comes to considerating it as a coherent country it looks far more better than, for example mentioned before Bellarus. Right now they have history, etnic homogeneity and (incredibly annoying "Israeli chosen, Israeli best, holocaust, holocaust, feel guilty, be guilty) identity. In few years they managed to build absolutely everything that a nation needs (well, actually they only needed the clay) so it's impossible to deny them a right to existance. Thus sadly, since asking both Jews and Palestinians to be tolerant is pointless I see no acceptable solution to that problem. So let them murder themselves untill they'll be able to find a common ground or untill they successfully kill each other giving this region - finally - peace.


----------



## Lobar (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Since this thread is starting to broaden to include Israel, here's an example of an average Qassam rocket strike coming out of Palestine for perspective's sake.

And here's an Israeli strike from Operation Cast Lead in 2008.  For those that are unfamiliar with the stuff, those smoke streaks are characteristic of white phosphorus.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Umm... According to the things I've read, in the first gif that thing that felt down is a debirs from israeli anti-missile rocket system. But whatever. Here you have average palestinian cart-propelled rocket systems, deadly as fuck! You can make same stuff using sugar and saltpeter.


----------



## Inciatus (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Umm... According to the things I've read, in the first gif that thing that felt down is a debirs from israeli anti-missile rocket system. But whatever. Here you have average palestinian cart-propelled rocket systems, deadly as fuck! You can make same stuff using sugar and saltpeter.


Those are actually some pretty impressive sugar motors. They tend to either have a very slow acceleration or like to explode.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Yet another airplane goes missing or gets totaled http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/w...se-contact-with-algeria-bound-plane.html?_r=0


----------



## Hooky (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I wonder what's going to happen now. Probably tougher sanctions on Russia, which may culminate in something.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

And by "something," you mean, "hurt the Russian economy, making life harder for the people who had nothing to do with whatever Putin decided to do," right?

Or maybe I am wrong, and the US sanctions on Cuba did anything but solidify Castro's power.


----------



## Inciatus (Jul 24, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Hooky said:


> I wonder what's going to happen now. Probably tougher sanctions on Russia, which may culminate in something.


Well they have to finish investigations first. While it was probably the separatists we are not certain.


----------



## ceacar99 (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lobar said:


> Since this thread is starting to broaden to include Israel, here's an example of an average Qassam rocket strike coming out of Palestine for perspective's sake.
> 
> And here's an Israeli strike from Operation Cast Lead in 2008.  For those that are unfamiliar with the stuff, those smoke streaks are characteristic of white phosphorus.



So an attempted murderer is less guilty for lacking the a more powerful weapon? Your statement is that "Because the Palestinians are weak their attempts to reignite a war and murder innocent civilians really it isn't really wrong and immoral because the Israeli military has and is using much more force to try to stop them"

Yeah..... 



			
				Ayattar  said:
			
		

> Well, you already answered your question. That's because they sorta took their current home by force. I'm sorry, but I can't and I won't support any country build by the invaders who are opressing indigenes. And yes, I agree that Israel is one big problem, because when it comes to considerating it as a coherent country it looks far more better than, for example mentioned before Bellarus. Right now they have history, etnic homogeneity and (incredibly annoying "Israeli chosen, Israeli best, holocaust, holocaust, feel guilty, be guilty) identity. In few years they managed to build absolutely everything that a nation needs (well, actually they only needed the clay) so it's impossible to deny them a right to existance. Thus sadly, since asking both Jews and Palestinians to be tolerant is pointless I see no acceptable solution to that problem. So let them murder themselves untill they'll be able to find a common ground or untill they successfully kill each other giving this region - finally - peace.



If you look at the situation Israel does not apply military force until the Palestinians have applied military force.  The Palestinians have land, the Israelies have land. All the Palestinians have to do is once and for all say "FINE! You got your stinking land! We are moving on and going to do the best with what we have". Instead they continually use campaigns of terror to try to destroy an enemy to reclaim what cannot be reclaimed. Yes their home was taken from them, yes that itself is bad. However they literally are destroying themselves at this point. Their first objective should to develop a collective that can be recognized internationally as a nation, not to destroy any part of Israel they can with terror and murder.

added: of course I see Palestine winning in another fashion. They are playing an emporer Palpetine with this one. Remember the end of star wars episode three where Palpetine basically throws lightning at Windou knowing it will reflect back at him causing pain? The goal of course was to get Anakin to act and save him thereby "turning" him.

The Palestinians have the same plan. The more they attack Israel the more Israel will have to fight back. Then the Palestinians work to show their suffering to the world thereby turning people against Israel. The ultimate goal is the isolation of Israel which would ultimately mean its undoing. With current trends this plan is working and its sickening. I refuse to feel sorry for someone who starts a fight with someone so people will feel bad for him and defend him when he gets beaten up.


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Following your logic, there would be no resistance movement and no uprisings during the II WW. Following your logic, if another country invaded USA and took half of your territory you'd be oblidged to say "FINE! You got your stinking land! We are moving on and going to do the best with what we have". Following your logic, if someone breaks into my house, I'm obliged to serve him tea. Great reasoning.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

What is the deal with people hating on White Phosphorus?  It's OK to _kill_ someone, but not OK to set someone on fire?  It's just like how everyone acts like poison gas is an unthinkably evil thing, but killing the same people with high explosives or bullets is hunky-dory.  I don't agree with, but can accept as a valid opinion that any killing is wrong.  What gets me is the huge numbers of people who think killing is wrong _if you do it the wrong way._


----------



## Ayattar (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> What is the deal with people hating on White Phosphorus?  It's OK to _kill_ someone, but not OK to set someone on fire?  It's just like how everyone acts like poison gas is an unthinkably evil thing, but killing the same people with high explosives or bullets is hunky-dory.  I don't agree with, but can accept as a valid opinion that any killing is wrong.  What gets me is the huge numbers of people who think killing is wrong _if you do it the wrong way._



It's a reminescence of old times, the only difference is that now instead of 'unhonourable' we use word 'inhumane'.
White phosphorus is a terrible thing because it doesn't necesarily kill you on the spot. Instead it will boil your guts, denaturatins proteins and what's worst capping your wounds, making them really hard to treat and/or heal. Instead of killing you fast it will drill deeper and deeper into your body burning all the time, making it a real torture.


----------



## Inciatus (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Following your logic, if someone breaks into my house, I'm obliged to serve him tea. Great reasoning.


Based on some of what has been said over the past few years I think that might be the law in the UK.


----------



## Lucius_Felix (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

I know white phosphorus is a horrible way to die.  What I don't know is why that matters how painful the death is.  If pain weren't allowed in war, they'd have to kill everyone with ketamine darts.


----------



## ceacar99 (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Following your logic, there would be no resistance movement and no uprisings during the II WW. Following your logic, if another country invaded USA and took half of your territory you'd be oblidged to say "FINE! You got your stinking land! We are moving on and going to do the best with what we have". Following your logic, if someone breaks into my house, I'm obliged to serve him tea. Great reasoning.



At some point you need to consider the best available option. At some point you are simply beating your fists against concrete in a fruitless pointless exercise. There is a difference between resistance of an oppressor who dominates every second of your lives with the hope you can win and fruitlessly swinging your fists at your neighbor.

The mongols were not kicked out of Russia by such resistance, they were kicked out by the Russians first organizing and becoming strong. Of course this also took clever leadership that was willing to work WITH the mongols in order to become strong enough to drive the very same benefactor out. 

The Palestinians lost some land, should EVERY nation that has lost some land behave in such a manner until the end of time? By that logic France and Germany should still be at war. By that logic Germany and Poland should STILL be fighting over Danzig. Shouldn't England still be at war with France over the loss of Normandy? Where does it end? Clearly the maxim of "War until the end of time" is not a sound one.


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## Lobar (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Ayattar said:


> Here you have average palestinian cart-propelled rocket systems, deadly as fuck! You can make same stuff using sugar and saltpeter.



Well, sure.  A large model rocket from a hobby store is also deadly as fuck if you point it at someone.  And that's essentially what your average Qassam is: a model rocket made from old drainpipes and sugar and piss.  They rarely have any kind of warhead at all; they're unguided kinetic weapons only.  Israel likes to pretend it's perpetually living under a German Blitz-like assault, but the Palestinians' only actual means of attack equates to "launch some heavy-ish shit over the wall and hope it hits something."



ceacar99 said:


> So an attempted murderer is less guilty for lacking the a more powerful weapon? Your statement is that "Because the Palestinians are weak their attempts to reignite a war and murder innocent civilians really it isn't really wrong and immoral because the Israeli military has and is using much more force to try to stop them"
> 
> Yeah.....
> 
> If you look at the situation Israel does not apply military force until the Palestinians have applied military force.  The Palestinians have land, the Israelies have land. All the Palestinians have to do is once and for all say "FINE! You got your stinking land! We are moving on and going to do the best with what we have". Instead they continually use campaigns of terror to try to destroy an enemy to reclaim what cannot be reclaimed. Yes their home was taken from them, yes that itself is bad. However they literally are destroying themselves at this point. Their first objective should to develop a collective that can be recognized internationally as a nation, not to destroy any part of Israel they can with terror and murder



No, that's not my statement, because your blanket definition of Palestine = aggressor and Israel = self-defense only isn't accurate at all.  No part of self-defense involves continuing to bulldoze civilian homes and settling your own people on the land.  And not only has Palestine had their land taken from them, but what is left in Gaza is a walled ghetto kept perpetually impoverished by the Israeli blockade, effectively a giant, open-air prison.  The situation for Palestine is apartheid at best.

The Israeli "response" to Palestinian actions is also so disproportionate that it's well into kicking-the-dog territory.  That an abused, half-starved dog backed into a corner weakly attempts to bite you when you kick it is not justification to kick it more.  I put "response" in quotes because Israel itself often deliberately provokes these incidents so they can justify an assault.  That Operation Cast Lead I mentioned before?  That's how Israel decided to end an impressively effective cease-fire, because it was election season dammit and peace looks bad for both the war party and the even-more-war party.

It's ironic that you state that Palestine's goal should be to organize into something that can be recognized as a nation, because Fatah and Hamas did actually recently combine to form a unified government for Palestine, and Israel was fucking _pissed_ about it.  It's likely the true impetus behind this latest assault.  Israel does not want any recognition of anyone that can negotiate for Palestine as a whole, because Israel does not want a peace process.  Israel has shown by their actions that their goal is to forestall peace for as long as possible by sabotaging all moves towards peace while using their propaganda arm to whitewash their aggression, so they can continue to eat up territory until they reach a point where a two-state solution becomes impossible.



Lucius_Felix said:


> What is the deal with people hating on White Phosphorus?  It's OK to _kill_ someone, but not OK to set someone on fire?  It's just like how everyone acts like poison gas is an unthinkably evil thing, but killing the same people with high explosives or bullets is hunky-dory.  I don't agree with, but can accept as a valid opinion that any killing is wrong.  What gets me is the huge numbers of people who think killing is wrong _if you do it the wrong way._



It's not that killing is wrong if you do it the wrong way, it's that killing is _worse_ if you do it the wrong way.  The goal in warfare isn't just to kill as many people as possible, but to destroy the enemy's capacity to wage war.  WP is a horrifying way to die, and it also causes mass casualties pretty indiscriminately, so it's pretty monstrous to use it when there's no strategic reason to do so (even when there is, but even more so when there isn't).  It also isn't always fatal, and I'm sure the survivors wish they'd just survived a bullet wound instead.


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

You know what destroys the enemy's capacity to wage war?  Killing and maiming the enemy.  Maiming, indeed, is sometimes even more effective than killing, as it ties up resources and manpower.  There's your strategic reason to use white phosphorus.


I think maybe I'm getting off track with this, though.  I'm saying that, if you're not willing to set someone on fire or drown them in poison in order to kill them, then you shouldn't be trying to kill them at all.


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## Ayattar (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



ceacar99 said:


> The mongols were not kicked out of Russia by such resistance, they were kicked out by the Russians first organizing and becoming strong. Of course this also took clever leadership that was willing to work WITH the mongols in order to become strong enough to drive the very same benefactor out.



Actually they managed to do it because Golden Horde collapsed due to various reasons (mainly instability of authority).
And as you pointed out in your previous post maybe it isn't pointless.



Lobar said:


> Well, sure.  A large model rocket from a hobby  store is also deadly as fuck if you point it at someone.  And that's  essentially what your average Qassam is: a model rocket made from old  drainpipes and sugar and piss.  They rarely have any kind of warhead at  all; they're unguided kinetic weapons only.  Israel likes to pretend  it's perpetually living under a German Blitz-like assault, but the  Palestinians' only actual means of attack equates to "launch some  heavy-ish shit over the wall and hope it hits something."



I wonder if Israeli would cry that "Palestinians are using heavy siege equipment, trebuchets and catapults!" if Palestinians would be throwing rocks at them.



Lobar said:


> Palestine = aggressor and Israel = self-defense



Palestine is an agressor, definitely. 



Lucius_Felix said:


> You know what destroys the enemy's capacity  to wage war?  Killing and maiming the enemy.  Maiming, indeed, is  sometimes even more effective than killing, as it ties up resources and  manpower.  There's your strategic reason to use white phosphorus



Reminds me of Basil II the Bulgar Slayer


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Better than Basil the Booger Eater.

He was one of the less-respected Emperors.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Hm, our neighbour country is infected with terrorist that want to destroy us, lets save ourself by terrorizing them! No way that that could backfire! The terrorist surely won't be able to use that for themselves, people are MUCH to logical and calm in emotional situations to be swayed by propaganda! :V

Besides: When even the army spokesmen stops going "we defend!" and just says "we do what the politics want us to do" you got into a really weird situation.
http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all


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## Feste (Jul 26, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lobar said:


> It's ironic that you state that Palestine's goal should be to organize into something that can be recognized as a nation, because Fatah and Hamas did actually recently combine to form a unified government for Palestine, and Israel was fucking _pissed_ about it.



That may have to do with the fact that Hamas's stated goal is the Destruction of all Israel and the death of all Jews. This argument is a f**king nightmare because there are really no good ways to defend either side-yes, Israel has screwed over the Palestinians royally which explains a lot of their extremism, but the Gazans refused to build up any possible infrastructure to make their lives better to instead build tunnels to kidnap Israelis kindergarteners. Yes, the Gazans are in a prison, but its because otherwise they'll pretty much attack Israel (as they have in the past). 

Out of all the groups, though, the ones I see as the true villain are Hamas. No matter what the Palestinians want, they are the ones perpetrating the worst acts (firing rockets around schools and groups of children, brainwashing the youth with shows like Farfur the mouse, etc). No matter if you support the Palestinians or not, Hamas should not be supported as one of the roots of the problem, anymore than Netanyahu's administration should. So yes, I do understand Israel's fear for a government with at least half that wants your destruction.



Lobar said:


> Well, sure.  A large model rocket from a hobby  store is also deadly as fuck if you point it at someone.  And that's  essentially what your average Qassam is: a model rocket made from old  drainpipes and sugar and piss.  They rarely have any kind of warhead at  all; they're unguided kinetic weapons only.  Israel likes to pretend  it's perpetually living under a German Blitz-like assault, but the  Palestinians' only actual means of attack equates to "launch some  heavy-ish shit over the wall and hope it hits something."



People forget because of Iron Dome, but without it, yeah, a lot of people would be killed. It's like someone spraying a Tec 9 from a car window. Yes, it's a shitty gun that can barely aim, and you're doing it from the worst possible position. You can still hurt or kill a lot of people though; it's still a dangerous weapon. In this case, Iron Dome is the bullet-resistant window you're hoping can stay up. Just because its a shitty weapon does not mean you can excuse it, especially if they can reach major cities and airports as they have.


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## ceacar99 (Jul 26, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Lucius_Felix said:


> You know what destroys the enemy's capacity to wage war?  Killing and maiming the enemy.  Maiming, indeed, is sometimes even more effective than killing, as it ties up resources and manpower.  There's your strategic reason to use white phosphorus.
> 
> 
> I think maybe I'm getting off track with this, though.  I'm saying that, if you're not willing to set someone on fire or drown them in poison in order to kill them, then you shouldn't be trying to kill them at all.



Actually, ultimately the way to win a war is to convince the other side that things would be so much nicer if they simply cooperated with you. There are carrots and sticks that can be used. For example demonstrating mercy can convince soldiers and leaders to surrender and defect to your side. The United States simply paying locals in Iraq to fight for their neighborhoods actually worked quite well(too bad the Iraqi government later refused to work with these groups due to religious differences). Of course the other end is the titanic fucking hammer of doom. The Boer war actually really ended because the South African colonists realized that if they continued fighting there would literally be nothing left. The settlements  were being raised and civilians being ushered into the first concentration camps. 

The reason why the Palestinian conflict continues for example is because the Palestinian peoples really have no real reason to accept working with Israel or at least living peacefully with it. The counter incentives are far too strong for the incentives provided to hold sway. There is also the fact that religious extremism has taken many people hostage. I'm certain most in Gaza don't want war, they just are stuck in one because Hamas hides among them and uses them as a human shield.


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## Lucius_Felix (Jul 26, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Being ze noice guise CAN work, but if you'd like, I could give you a list of a hundred wars decisively ended through brutality and extermination as well.

But my point, still, is that there's no moral difference between killing a person painlessly (assuming the psychological pain of fear doesn't count) and roasting them alive.  You're still ending their life, and no amount of bullshit about being "humane" will change the fact.  There's nothing humane about killing someone*, so if you're in a situation where killing people is your best option, you should not be squeamish about choosing the most expedient method.

*With the obvious exception that they WANT to die, which is very generally not the case in warfare.


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## Cassedy (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

"Ukrainian pilot admits he shot down Malaisian Boeing", article in german newspaper http://wahrheitfuerdeutschland.de/?p=3622


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## Gryphoneer (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> "Ukrainian pilot admits he shot down Malaisian Boeing", article in german newspaper http://wahrheitfuerdeutschland.de/?p=3622


1. That's a website, not a newspaper.

2. That article's three days old, how come we never heard this from anyone else.

3. That site just screams "conspiracy nut" with such helpful indicators as a New World Order category (and possibly neo-Nazi with charming articles such as "Ukraine crisis will destroy 25k German jobs").

4. How the fuck did you overlook this?



> *The source of this article is a satire page.*
> 
> *Ð˜ÑÑ‚Ð¾Ñ‡Ð½Ð¸ÐºÐ¾Ð¼ ÑÑ‚Ð¾Ð¹ ÑÑ‚Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒÐ¸ ÑÐ²Ð»ÑÐµÑ‚ÑÑ ÑÑ‚Ñ€Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ†Ð° ÑÐ°Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ€Ð°.*
> 
> *Die Quelle dieses Artikels, ist eine Satireseite.*



So, Gawker Network is a source on par with Faux Noise, but fascist Infowars is a-okay?

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for making the Verfassungsschutz monitor my net traffic after visiting this site.


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## Gryphoneer (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Commie Bat said:


> Maybe Cassedy realized it was satire and posted it anyway?


Uhm, without any indication in his original post? Yeah, nope. It's pretty clear he fell for that BS. 

And the disclaimer in that linked article doesn't look to me like the entire site is a German version of The Onion, but rather the author pulling a parody retcon after he noticed one of his sources was an Onion-like satire site. Wingnut conspiracy theorists are prone to this kind of critical research failure...



> So much Freedom!  The fact that one would be watched for going on a website like this, is absolutely pathetic.


That was a joke. The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution is a secret police of the benevolent kind tasked with, as the name implies, identifying and countering threats to Germany's liberal democratic order. They were created to prevent fascism from ever taking over again. They don't really surveil me for visiting that site like the FBI doesn't surveil you for visiting FA on suspicion of CP sharing...

Well, okay, maybe the FBI actually does that, but I still joked about the other troop.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> "Ukrainian pilot admits he shot down Malaisian Boeing", article in german newspaper http://wahrheitfuerdeutschland.de/?p=3622


After lloking through their homepage... doesn't seem reliable.


Gryphoneer said:


> That was a joke. The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution is a secret police of the benevolent kind tasked with, as the name implies, identifying and countering threats to Germany's liberal democratic order.


Und Zitronenfalter falten Zitronen.



Gryphoneer said:


> They were created to prevent fascism from ever taking over again. They don't really surveil me for visiting that site like the FBI doesn't surveil you for visiting FA on suspicion of CP sharing...
> 
> Well, okay, maybe the FBI actually does that, but I still joked about the other troop.


NSU?
Seriously, we need a tabula-rasa for our Secret-services. They aren't loyal to us and the Constitution. (See Verfassungsschutz+NSU and of course the BND-NSA Cooperation (not the fact that there was such an cooperation, but what they did))


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## Gryphoneer (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Toboe Moonclaw said:


> NSU?


Yeah, that was a gigantic fuck-up, but on the whole they do a reasonably good job.

And it's not them who recruited former Nazis as spies or helped the CIA kidnap and interrogate German citizens at blacksites. That was the BND.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 29, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> Yeah, that was a gigantic fuck-up, but on the whole they do a reasonably good job.
> 
> And it's not them who recruited former Nazis as spies or helped the CIA kidnap and interrogate German citizens at blacksites. That was the BND.


BND is the new name of the Organisation Gehlen, a secret service the USA founded and staffed with old nazi's.
Still, after the NSU fuckup i consider them tainted, the problem with secret services: how do you trust them?
And any in-transparent service from the occupation time need to be redone once we are going for independency, imho. Before Merkel and co stop being USA-puppets it doesn't matter anyway. The ruskies fucked of when the wall fell, the yanks are still there...


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## Cassedy (Jul 30, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Gryphoneer said:


> Uhm, without any indication in his original post? Yeah, nope. It's pretty clear he fell for that BS.


I've put quotation marks in my post just to indicate that I'm not posting my thoughts. But you are free to assume whatever you like.
Also heard interesting thing on the radio today : after more than 1800 edits to russian wikipedia page about malaysian boeing incident, made from the same IP, that IP was banned for 10 days. Later it turned out that IP belonged to russian goverment. Edit log shows that they were replacing words "shot down" with "crashed" and "separatists" with "rebels".


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## Gryphoneer (Jul 30, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*



Cassedy said:


> I've put quotation marks in my post just to indicate that I'm not posting my thoughts. But you are free to assume whatever you like.


_Suuuuuuure_.

Quotation marks totally don't simply mean you indicate something is a headline.



> Also heard interesting thing on the radio today : after more than 1800 edits to russian wikipedia page about malaysian boeing incident, made from the same IP, that IP was banned for 10 days. Later it turned out that IP belonged to russian goverment. Edit log shows that they were replacing words "shot down" with "crashed" and "separatists" with "rebels".


Surely Putin and his team of excellence just want to prevent Western propanganda from compromising Wikipedia. The mark of trustworthiness!


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## Torrijos-sama (Jul 30, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

Who needs a ministry of truth when history can be altered online? Si omnia veriti per wikipedium.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jul 31, 2014)

*Re: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down(?) over the Russia-Ukraine border. No survivors*

There was also(? or maybe it is what Cassedy heard about) an edit-war between Kiev and Moscow.
blog.fefe.de/?ts=ad37666b


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