# Feeling Closed-minded about other people being different?



## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 15, 2013)

Why do I feel like I cannot get over my Christian mindset even though I moved away from Christianity? I feel uncomfortable around certain people for their sexuality/fetishes, like, for example, when I see femboy stuff on FA and find out the person is one, I get this uncomfortable and insecure feeling, like I get this OCD kind of thing. it feels like it goes against my nature of humanity, like since i'm a guy, being around a guy like a girl feels weird and unnatural, like I cannot be comfortable associating with them or be comfortable around them. I feel a little bit like a bad person for this. I mean heck, even the conservative Christians on FA seem to be better than me. I am picky about the people I like to associate with, religion/non-religion/sex/ethnic/political etc.. and it makes me feel a little bad for myself that I'm like this. All my life, the things that I'm not familiar with cause me to have social-anxiety/panic attacks, although this is something totally different. I am very picky about who I feel comfortable with for any reason. It's almost like I cannot handle diversity, like I need people who think like me or is like me in some sort of way in order to feel comfortable with, or just people who can handle how I am personally. Being that the whole furry fandom is open to diversity and acceptance, I know I am going to be hated if I tell anyone on FA this. I usually keep it to my self, but I like to be honest. I'm letting people know that I have a problem, which is why I posted this. I am trying to adjust. I do have some sort of tolerance though.


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## Hewge (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm gay and a bit effeminate but femboys and very flamboyant/stereotyped people make me uncomfortable. I think you're over thinking it too much. o.o

Being open-minded doesn't really mean going around and hugging/loving everything. You can accept someone/something but still be uncomfortable with it. As long as you actually accept it.

What's that thing from the Simpsons I heard once? You don't need to like something to accept it?


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 15, 2013)

Hewge said:


> I'm gay and a bit effeminate but femboys and very flamboyant/stereotyped people make me uncomfortable. I think you're over thinking it too much. o.o
> 
> Being open-minded doesn't really mean going around and hugging/loving everything. You can accept someone/something but still be uncomfortable with it. As long as you actually accept it.
> 
> What's that thing from the Simpsons I heard once? You don't need to like something to accept it?


 For me, not liking, is not accepting, do you mean tolerate?


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## Hewge (Mar 15, 2013)

Tolerate sounds mean. xP

I don't think it's really possible for a human being to not dislike at least _â€‹something._


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 15, 2013)

Hewge said:


> I'm gay and a bit effeminate but femboys and very flamboyant/stereotyped people make me uncomfortable. I think you're over thinking it too much. o.o
> 
> Being open-minded doesn't really mean going around and hugging/loving everything. You can accept someone/something but still be uncomfortable with it. As long as you actually accept it.
> 
> What's that thing from the Simpsons I heard once? You don't need to like something to accept it?


 For me, not liking, is not accepting or feel like you accept, do you mean tolerate? Oops I double posted, I thought the last one never sent. I edited it.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 15, 2013)

You don't like femboy stuff. Unless this influences your assessment of them as people what's the problem? 

Take a hypothetical example. 
I don't like the food of culture x, it doesn't make me xenophobic. 

On the subject of femboys and crossdressing, that sort of thing, it always appeared rather arbitrary to me. We could imagine a society in which men wear make up and skirts [they have a justifiable reason to be cooler down there, for instance] and those who wear trousers are considered femboys.


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## Mikhal18 (Mar 15, 2013)

You'll eventually drop that "insecurity" as the time goes by.
"Christianity Mindset" or not, it's the way you were raised, and it seems you're struggling to shrug it away. 
It only takes a bit of an effort, trying to overcome that "uncomfortability" you feel when you're close to any situation like that. :> That's my opinion though.

^I strongly support Fallowfox's above statement.

Again, you'll get past that pal


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## MicheleFancy (Mar 15, 2013)

It's a cultural thing and something that will be very hard to break.  The fact that you feel bad about it shows that you aren't a bad person and want to become more comfortable out of your demographic.  If you just didn't like them and had no desire to think differently, since they aren't hurting anyone by being the way they are, it'd be a different story.  Everyone has something that makes them uncomfortable, but it's the desire to be empathetic and at least treat them on equal terms that's important.

For example, there is no REAL reason why men can't wear women's clothes.  That's a cultural construct which I don't think I need to get into right now, haha.  You can't see that we aren't born with prejudice over someone different if you look at very young children who just love everybody.  It's only when they get older that the problem rears up.  But, that thought process is so deeply ingrained in us because from the day we're born it's being told to us "NO, this is how EVERYONE acts and you should NEVER be different and if you are, keep it to yourself." that it's kind of hard to change once we're adults, even if we want to.  You aren't going to be WHOA ACCEPTANCE right off the bat, but the fact that you even care that you feel this way is positive.


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## Troj (Mar 15, 2013)

Hewge said:


> Being open-minded doesn't really mean going around and hugging/loving everything. You can accept someone/something but still be uncomfortable with it. As long as you actually accept it.
> 
> What's that thing from the Simpsons I heard once? You don't need to like something to accept it?



Well said.

It's unwise, counterproductive, and even, downright dangerous to just embrace EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in the universe. Lines must be drawn somewhere, and you've got to be honest with yourself about where you draw them, and why.

To me, an open-minded person is one who is at least willing to set aside their assumptions or initial reactions to study, test, experiment with, or learn about something, and who is willing to acknowledge that there are different strokes for different folks.

There are fetishes I don't personally care for, or that I think are squicky, icky, or strange, but I also realize that it would be inappropriate, impractical, and wrong for me to try to impose my personal preferences on other people or on the world willy-nilly. 

But, there's nothing wrong with having preferences, and stating or sharing those preferences isn't necessarily wrong, either, depending on how you go about it.

NOW, if you're concerned because you feel your preference or feeling is born of an irrational, wrong, inaccurate, outdated, or bigoted mindset, that's yet another matter. In that case, the first step is usually to ask yourself WHY you feel this way, and where the belief came from. If X is bad, WHY is it bad? From there, you can work systematically to weigh the evidence for and evidence against your belief or feeling, and/or expose yourself to situations that will ideally require you to confront and test that belief or feeling. This process, over time, can potentially help to transform or change beliefs or feelings you're not happy with.


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## badlands (Mar 15, 2013)

some things, epecialy those that have been ingrained into you during your childhood can take a long time to shake off. even if you accept something with your logical mind.


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## Symlus (Mar 15, 2013)

I too, had a hard time moving away from being judgmental. Acceptance and tolerance just came naturally to me. It also doesn't hurt to have friends that fit the demographic you're worried about. 

I used to fear gays (not anymore, I ain't 'fraid o' you) because of my grandparents. I love them dearly, but they just... Filled my head with their perceptions of the world. One of the separate-yet-equal times, one of homophobia, one of religious piety. Looking back, I have grown out of my shell, my best friends are black and homosexual, and I'm agnostic now. I can thank my mother for the majority of this, but I still have my issues here and there.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 15, 2013)

Troj said:


> Well said.
> 
> It's unwise, counterproductive, and even, downright dangerous to just embrace EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in the universe. Lines must be drawn somewhere, and you've got to be honest with yourself about where you draw them, and why.
> 
> ...


 Some ways I want to get over my fears, and in some ways I don't. The reason I do, is to fit more into the furry fandom and not be hated by other people who are different than me for having my beliefs. The reason I don't, is because if I do, I would feel less like myself, because I feel like those fears are part of what makes me who I am. I think if I do stop being this way, I would lose myself in some sort of way. I like having things the way they are to make me feel like myself. Also, the femboy thing isn't the only thing that I have a phobia or OCD things about, it's other things to. I don't hate the people who are like this, there is just a major part of me that creeps me out, it just feels unnatural. Whenever someone who is gay says they have the same phobias, it makes me feel a little better, because it shows that they are not part of the stereotype, and even them feel the same way as me. I am not here to offend anyone, just saying. What's weird is that even my homophobic christian family gets mad at people who use the term fag because they think it offends gays and stuff WTF? They always say they don't accept homosexuality, but then say they love our gay family members, dafuq?


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 15, 2013)

I get banned from many forums for ridiculing religion as a whole.

I can honestly say I don't care, though.


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## Teal (Mar 15, 2013)

Femboys are hot.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 15, 2013)

Being transgendered is pretty nice.

If I was a manly man, I'd have to be Charles Bronson status.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 15, 2013)

badlands said:


> some things, epecialy those that have been ingrained into you during your childhood can take a long time to shake off. even if you accept something with your logical mind.


 Sometimes things never wear off D:


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## Azure (Mar 15, 2013)

i punch flamboyant gays in the mouth

and i love me some dick

compute that shit


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 15, 2013)

Azure said:


> i punch flamboyant gays in the mouth
> 
> and i love me some dick
> 
> compute that shit



o bby


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## Azure (Mar 15, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> o bby


*punch*

you like that

whore


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 15, 2013)

Azure said:


> *punch*
> 
> you like that
> 
> whore




oh man my girldick is so hard right now


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## Kio Maru (Mar 15, 2013)

I think I'm homo but I don't like over acceptance of the homo, homos should be treated equally although there's plenty of homos who go the extremist gay pride route (even though nowadays homosexuality is pretty much tolerated) and I don't like seeing this it just feels like they're sort of "trolling" (or the irl equivalent) to me and those strongly heterosexual are more likely to find ways to dislike homosexuality from this as it gives an impression of gross stereotypes to them. Basically, you should be allowed to be gay but preaching it like a superior race just seems ridiculous to me. It's like the news, "gay" is seemingly used a hot topic keyword to spark political attention, that's not equality it's a flame towards the heteronormative bias in society and the majority of people in society apparently are not gay and it's unnecessary for mainstream media to adjust to any extreme degree to suit such minorities, I mean if society was entirely gay and straight people were trying to gain excessive acceptance would homosexual majority like it (disregard offspring, consider reproduction were through cloning)? Same goes with fetishes, nobody needs to know about your fetishes but it doesn't mean those shouldn't be accepted (unless it involves potential cruelty, ofc).

tl;dr live and let live


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## Azure (Mar 15, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> oh man my girldick is so hard right now


fix your makeup


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## Cid_Nielcen (Mar 15, 2013)

This post could potentially open up a can of worms, so please don't take it too seriously, it's just food for thought.

Because you moved away from Christianity, I'm guessing you're okay with the theory of evolution.  If people evolved from apes, then it's reasonable to assume we might still have some animal instincts within us.  In the wild, if one animal comes across a different animal, there is a good chance that one of them is going to get eaten.  In this case, prejudice is a survival instinct.

I doubt you consider femboys to be a threat to your survival, but the underlying instinct to dislike things that are different may still be in play.  If this is true, then it's not your fault, it's simply human nature.  The way to counter this is to believe there is no significant difference.  We're only human after all.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 15, 2013)

Cid_Nielcen said:


> This post could potentially open up a can of worms, so please don't take it too seriously, it's just food for thought.
> 
> Because you moved away from Christianity, I'm guessing you're okay with the theory of evolution.  If people evolved from apes, then it's reasonable to assume we might still have some animal instincts within us.  In the wild, if one animal comes across a different animal, there is a good chance that one of them is going to get eaten.  In this case, prejudice is a survival instinct.
> 
> I doubt you consider femboys to be a threat to your survival, but the underlying instinct to dislike things that are different may still be in play.  If this is true, then it's not your fault, it's simply human nature.  The way to counter this is to believe there is no significant difference.  We're only human after all.


 Femboys aren't the only thing, it was an example.


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## Day Coydog (Mar 15, 2013)

Teal said:


> Femboys are hot.


Sometimes, after a point it just gets weird.




TheMetalVelocity said:


> Femboys aren't the only thing, it was an example.


Like what? maybe we can get down to the root of the problem.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm a Christian, not sure I'm enjoying the sentiment there that I'm closed minded. In fact I think the term closed minded is used mindlessly as it's kind of a "get out of this argument while demeaning the other guy" tactic. From what I can tell, being closed minded is simply disagreeing with any or all peoples lifestyles and to be truly open minded you have to accept everything everyone does because they choose to do it or do it because they just feel that way without intention. Well that's a bunch of garbage. I mean its amazing how many people want to throw away a friendship with me because I disagree with them on one thing, but I'm closed minded, even though I'm accepting them. I don't buy the evolutionary instincts side either, I have no instinct telling me to spear a big walking meat animal and eat it and let me tell you that would be the oldest instinct of them all. 

We accept things that are familiar but distance things that are uncertain. I can't realistically tell you why you are uncomfortable with that, but you just are and there is no big evil face that gets the blame. Judgement is good, I'll take my moral stands on issues, but I'm not going to listen to any manipulative accusations serving to segment me into a carefully crafted image of "horrible people just like me". I'm friends with friends who are friendly.


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## Day Coydog (Mar 15, 2013)

Actually, hunting would have to do with society and technology, not instincts, if so, then farming would never be a thing.

and, Fuzzle, you should read or at least look at this: http://listverse.com/2012/01/28/top-10-human-reflexes-and-natural-instincts/
... the last three in particular, they are perfect examples of evolutionary instincts.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 15, 2013)

I only read books with pictures of bunnies and no words, on the internet.


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## Day Coydog (Mar 15, 2013)

it has a picture of a baby, if that counts.


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## Fuzzle (Mar 15, 2013)

...>__> What are you implying?


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## Day Coydog (Mar 15, 2013)

That both babies and bunnies are cute... I'm kind of afraid that when I saw the word "bunnies" that I was not thinking the same thing as you.


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## Troj (Mar 16, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I would feel less like myself, because I feel like those fears are part of what makes me who I am.



So, then, the interesting question for me is, why do you want to be defined by your fear?

Presumably, there are many, many things which make you unique, and make who you are. 

I often think of fear (especially irrational or unproductive fear) as something which potentially prevents us from being who we are, or who we could be, because of how it can shut us off or shut us down.

You might ask yourself, if you were to lose this fear, pet peeve, objection, whatever you want to call it, what would happen? Who or what would you become as a result of discarding or losing it? And, what would this change tell you about you?



> What's weird is that even my homophobic christian family gets mad at people who use the term fag because they think it offends gays and stuff WTF? They always say they don't accept homosexuality, but then say they love our gay family members, dafuq?



That's very common, in fact. I know many people who are genuinely perplexed and hurt when others tell them they are homophobes for objecting to gay marriage, gay adoption, or gay rights in general. "I don't hate gay people; I just hate their sin/lifestyle!" To ears like mine, this sentence simply doesn't parse, but other people mean it quite sincerely (even as they don't _quite_ manage to hate the sin _without_ hating or hurting the sinner).


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## Ricky (Mar 16, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Why do I feel like I cannot get over my Christian mindset even though I moved away from Christianity? I feel uncomfortable around certain people for their sexuality/fetishes, like, for example, when I see femboy stuff on FA and find out the person is one, I get this uncomfortable and insecure feeling, like I get this OCD kind of thing.



I don't think it's your "Christian mindset."

Some stuff bothers you, OK, but you are obviously okay with some stuff too.

My question would be why fem-bois?

When you get really squicked about something to the point of internal conflict there's usually a reason for it.


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## TrishaCat (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't really think its a "Christianity mindset" so much as simply finding things out of the norm...well, weird. If you don't see or hear about it everyday, of course it might make you feel uncomfortable.


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## Ricky (Mar 16, 2013)

ah fuck, never mind. I'm not going there


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## Streetcircus (Mar 16, 2013)

As has been said, being open-minded doesn't mean accepting anything. That just means being accommodating. Being open-minded is being open to ideas that are different than your own, which is really just an extension of being willing to understand something before you form an opinion of it. What's true is that if someone accepts something and isn't willing to consider that the thing might be wrong, they are actually close-minded for accepting it.

TS, I think you are only close-minded because it doesn't seem like you really understand why you don't like femboys. It's your responsibility to make sense of your repulsion towards femboys, and if you can't, then you should understand why femboys are acceptable. I strongly feel that it is a matter of gaining knowledge on the subject, and that will not automatically lead to acceptance.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 16, 2013)

Fuzzle said:


> I'm a Christian, not sure I'm enjoying the sentiment there that I'm closed minded. In fact I think the term closed minded is used mindlessly as it's kind of a "get out of this argument while demeaning the other guy" tactic. From what I can tell, being closed minded is simply disagreeing with any or all peoples lifestyles and to be truly open minded you have to accept everything everyone does because they choose to do it or do it because they just feel that way without intention. Well that's a bunch of garbage. I mean its amazing how many people want to throw away a friendship with me because I disagree with them on one thing, but I'm closed minded, even though I'm accepting them. I don't buy the evolutionary instincts side either, I have no instinct telling me to spear a big walking meat animal and eat it and let me tell you that would be the oldest instinct of them all.
> 
> We accept things that are familiar but distance things that are uncertain. I can't realistically tell you why you are uncomfortable with that, but you just are and there is no big evil face that gets the blame. Judgement is good, I'll take my moral stands on issues, but I'm not going to listen to any manipulative accusations serving to segment me into a carefully crafted image of "horrible people just like me". I'm friends with friends who are friendly.



Closemindedness is ignoring new ideas or challenges to old ones.

Openmindedness is being wilful to consider new ideas and reconsider old ones. 

Instinctually some humans are curious and some are more cautious, which could manifest in people being unwilling to consider other people's ways of life. etcetera, just like you stated. Whether or not we feel an instinctual desire to shove spears into things is _a little _irrelevant, because this is a recently developed technological learned behaviour, not an instinct.


edit: sorry it appears several people replied to this before me. :s


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 16, 2013)

Day Coydog said:


> Sometimes, after a point it just gets weird.
> 
> 
> Like what? maybe we can get down to the root of the problem.


 I don't really feel comfortable talking about it here, I just gave one example.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

TC just embrace not liking people who dress like assholes in public.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> TC just embrace not liking people who dress like assholes in public.


 You mean like people who wear their pants down to their knees, trying to be gangsta? Or were you being sarcastic? I am not sure what you were trying to get at.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

I was being sarcastic, sort of, not really. I've yet to see a femboy who dresses like a normal human being.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I was being sarcastic, sort of, not really. I've yet to see a femboy who dresses like a normal human being.



'Normal' human males dress stringently in line with their gender roles. Perhaps this is why.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

People dress different for a reason. If that reason is a political statement, they better be ready to back it up. If it's to make social commentary, they too better be ready to back up their decision. If they're wearing something for attention or to advertise, "HEY! I'm a submissive homosexual!" then they deserve a hard smack up the backside of the head.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> People dress different for a reason. If that reason is a political statement, they better be ready to back it up. If it's to make social commentary, they too better be ready to back up their decision. If they're wearing something for attention or to advertise, "HEY! I'm a submissive homosexual!" then they deserve a hard smack up the backside of the head.



How about considering that the clothes people wear are a trivial matter?


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

For you perhaps.


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## Hewge (Mar 17, 2013)

For some people clothes can be a way to express oneself, like how colors in paintings can represent different feelings, they can in clothes too. Also the way it is all presented.

But yeah, if it's something obnoxious and crying for attention it does deserve consideration of a slapping. xP


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## Troj (Mar 17, 2013)

I think you at least have to be aware of and prepared for the reactions your appearance might elicit. It doesn't pay to wear something that most people would agree could provoke a bad reaction, and then be shocked and appalled when you get a bad reaction.

BUT, this absolutely _doesn't_ justify bullying or harassing people because of their physical appearance or presentation. There should still be a general social expectation that people keep their shit together, even if someone is dressed in a purple zoot suit made of penises, and wearing hat emblazoned with the picture of Mother Theresa fucking a goat while giving the sign of the horns.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

Troj said:


> I think you at least have to be aware of and prepared for the reactions your appearance might elicit. It doesn't pay to wear something that most people would agree could provoke a bad reaction, and then be shocked and appalled when you get a bad reaction.
> 
> BUT, this absolutely _doesn't_ justify bullying or harassing people because of their physical appearance or presentation. There should still be a general social expectation that people keep their shit together, even if someone is dressed in a purple zoot suit made of penises, and wearing hat emblazoned with the picture of Mother Theresa fucking a goat while giving the sign of the horns.



I don't like assholes that kinda smugly sit there and snicker behind other's backs. If you have a problem you say something about it or you get over it. "Keeping your shit together" just leads to housewife gossip and a rumor mill.


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## Troj (Mar 17, 2013)

Keeping your shit together is meant to encompass generally not being hateful, rude, and obnoxious. So, not pointing and sniggering loudly under someone's back is definitely under that umbrella.

But, if the choice is between being seized and beaten in the alley, and being snickered at, I'll certainly take the snickering.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2013)

Pfftftftfft that person is such an asshole!

How can you tell?

The clothes they wear reflect a combination of wavelengths of visible light a few hundred nanometres different on average to those of my clothes.

...right?


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 17, 2013)

Teal said:


> Femboys are hot.


We try.


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## Heliophobic (Mar 17, 2013)

It doesn't always have to do with your beliefs/morals. There's always going to be certain people you just won't like, regardless of if there's a reason or not. As long as you learn to keep it to yourself and not discriminate against said people, it doesn't make you a bad person. You can't control your thoughts. Well, not easily anyway.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

Troj said:


> Keeping your shit together is meant to encompass generally not being hateful, rude, and obnoxious. So, not pointing and sniggering loudly under someone's back is definitely under that umbrella.
> 
> But, if the choice is between being seized and beaten in the alley, and being snickered at, I'll certainly take the snickering.



Behind their backs means no one can hear it. It's watercooler talk at the office kinda shit. I'd rather someone make fun of me to my face so I can deal with it then and there instead of rumors circulating around or having to deal with passive-aggressive bullshit.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Behind their backs means no one can hear it. It's watercooler talk at the office kinda shit. I'd rather someone make fun of me to my face so I can deal with it then and there instead of rumors circulating around or having to deal with passive-aggressive bullshit.



I'd rather people not make fun of me because if they don't they simply _have to _talk about me behind my back.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 17, 2013)

I'd like to say though, the OPs post seems to simply be sexism.  Being uncomfortable with a man in a stereotypically feminine role is no different than being uncomfortable with a woman in a stereotypically masculine role.  So if it makes you feel any better, you're no better than someone who thinks that women need to get out of the workplace and back into the kitchen.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 17, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> I'd rather people not make fun of me because if they don't they simply _have to _talk about me behind my back.



Okay, but there's a problem with that. You see, we live on planet Earth, and if you do socially awkward things, people will comment on it, usually negatively.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 17, 2013)

AshleyAshes said:


> I'd like to say though, the OPs post seems to simply be sexism.  Being uncomfortable with a man in a stereotypically feminine role is no different than being uncomfortable with a woman in a stereotypically masculine role.  So if it makes you feel any better, you're no better than someone who thinks that women need to get out of the workplace and back into the kitchen.



Pretty much this. It's odd to me as well that some people get so butthurt about the articles of clothing others wear. 



TeenageAngst said:


> People dress different for a reason. If that reason is a political statement, they better be ready to back it up. If it's to make social commentary, they too better be ready to back up their decision. If they're wearing something for attention or to advertise, "HEY! I'm a submissive homosexual!" then they deserve a hard smack up the backside of the head.



You do that, TA. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time you got your ass kicked for being a bigot. I think people should mind their own business instead of trying to build themselves up on tearing others down. A guy wears a skirt? I don't give a shit. It's not killing anyone. A woman wearing pants? My god, it's the end times. 

And don't pull that "Bawww...it is my business because I have to look at it" card. Some people may be of the opinion that just seeing your name on this forum is offensive. Doesn't mean you should be banned for it. 

I think the need for acceptance is also a factor in the closeminded dept. After all, its better to be a bully rather than to be bullied immarite?


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## Troj (Mar 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Behind their backs means no one can hear it. It's watercooler talk at the office kinda shit. I'd rather someone make fun of me to my face so I can deal with it then and there instead of rumors circulating around or having to deal with passive-aggressive bullshit.



I definitely hate passive-aggressive bullshit, absolutely. At least when people are direct and candid, everybody knows where everybody stands.

Ideally, I'd prefer it if people recognized when they're being petty or small, and had the decency to keep their small, petty snipes to themselves, but obviously, I'm dreaming in vain here.

But, of course, passive aggressive sniping is bad/irritating=! harassing or confronting people for "being weird" is appropriate/right. I hate it when thugs justify their thuggery by saying they're "just" enforcing social norms and protecting civilization. "He was asking for it!" THAT'S bullshit.

Well, and I'd tend to agree with Ashley that discomfort with femboys and the like usually stems from a more basic discomfort around people blurring or messing with gender norms and barriers. The particular fear of femboys might also, at least in some cases,be associated with a fear of being "tricked," "seduced," "manipulated" and/or "taken advantage of" by a feminine-seeming male, and the fear that such a "seduction" might bring one's own masculinity and/or heterosexuality into question.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Okay, but there's a problem with that. You see, we live on planet Earth, and if you do socially awkward things, people will comment on it, usually negatively.


Not 'people' will comment on it. 

*We *comment on it. It's us, it's our faults. Next time we find ourselves about to make fun of someone for the colour of their shirt, we should recognise how pointless and nasty that is, and if our friends do it we should openly tell them how pointless and nasty they're being instead of putting up with that sort of trash.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 17, 2013)

I was told I was a pervert by another transgendered person because I don't want sexual reassignment surgery. 

I'm apparently a shithead who makes life so much harder for "real transsexuals."


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> I was told I was a pervert by another transgendered person because I don't want sexual reassignment surgery.
> 
> I'm apparently a shithead who makes life so much harder for "real transsexuals."



Sounds like that person has a brick for a brain. Trying to put down people for not wanting risky surgeries is so much worse than whatever they think you're responsible for.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 17, 2013)

Everyone wants to be a victim, even more so than others apparently.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 17, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> I was told I was a pervert by another transgendered person because I don't want sexual reassignment surgery.
> 
> I'm apparently a shithead who makes life so much harder for "real transsexuals."



If its who I think it is, I wouldn't worry much about it. Bitterness can cloud a person's judgements.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 18, 2013)

> You do that, TA. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time you got your ass kicked for being a bigot. I think people should mind their own business instead of trying to build themselves up on tearing others down. A guy wears a skirt? I don't give a shit. It's not killing anyone. A woman wearing pants? My god, it's the end times.



A guy wearing a skirt is the elephant in the room. If I'm just passing him on the street, of course I won't say anything. If I'm forced to tolerate him longer than about 4 seconds though I'm going to mention it because otherwise it'd be fucking weird. Like those classless idiots who carry around those ball jointed dolls everywhere and refer to them by name, it's weird, kinda creepy, says volumes about who you are as a person, and eventually it's gonna come up in a social situation.



> But, of course, passive aggressive sniping is bad/irritating=! harassing or confronting people for "being weird" is appropriate/right. I hate it when thugs justify their thuggery by saying they're "just" enforcing social norms and protecting civilization. "He was asking for it!" THAT'S bullshit.
> 
> Well, and I'd tend to agree with Ashley that discomfort with femboys and the like usually stems from a more basic discomfort around people blurring or messing with gender norms and barriers. The particular fear of femboys might also, at least in some cases,be associated with a fear of being "tricked," "seduced," "manipulated" and/or "taken advantage of" by a feminine-seeming male, and the fear that such a "seduction" might bring one's own masculinity and/or heterosexuality into question.



I wasn't openly advocating violence you tit. A smack upside the head means they should somehow be chastised for being an attention whore. If you do shit like wear skirts or fishnets in public as a guy, whatever, it's your right, but there's gonna be a lotta people out there who don't wanna put up with your bullshit. You're taking something about yourself and making it your only focal point by doing that because it's so out of place. You're reducing _yourself _from being a guy who's a homosexual to being a homosexual first and foremost and everything else second. It's like the person's terrified others won't notice.



> Not 'people' will comment on it.
> 
> *We comment on it. It's us, it's our faults. Next time we find ourselves about to make fun of someone for the colour of their shirt, we should recognise how pointless an**d nasty that is, and if** our friends do it we should openly tell them how pointless and nasty they're being instead of putting up with that sort of trash.*



Only gang members care about the color of your shirt, or what's on your shirt for that matter. When you're a male and you look like you took your fashion advice from a pole-dancer though is when you start to have problems. The social implications begin to compound on themselves and the person becomes a self-parody.

Please note none of this is in any way associated with men wearing kilts, which really should be more encouraged.


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## Ricky (Mar 18, 2013)

Troj said:


> Well, and I'd tend to agree with Ashley that discomfort with femboys and the like usually stems from a more basic discomfort around people blurring or messing with gender norms and barriers. The particular fear of femboys might also, at least in some cases,be associated with a fear of being "tricked," "seduced," "manipulated" and/or "taken advantage of" by a feminine-seeming male, and the fear that such a "seduction" might bring one's own masculinity and/or heterosexuality into question.



I think it can also make people uncomfortable when they _like it a bit_, but know they shouldn't.

People are too brainwashed by society to actually realize attraction isn't as simple as boy vs. girl.

If there are behaviors or looks or other factors that turn them on, that could make them uncomfortable.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> You're reducing _yourself _from being a guy who's a homosexual to being a homosexual first and foremost and everything else second. It's like the person's terrified others won't notice.



I like this part of your post I must say. People put too much emphasis on sexuality these days anyway; however, I think the deeper issue always returns to the epic (and apparently hard to kill) hatred some people have for women. The entire reason people freak out over gay men is because they "lower themselves" to the level the female sex. 

Dress like a fag? That's pole dancer attire...and only women can be pole dancers!!11!!1 The sluts. :V And even the kilt joke gets old as it totally undermines the entire argument that dresses are feminine. What's the sin of being a crossdresser? That you forgo what society thinks is masculine. Kilts are a-ok cuz only the menfolk don them. It's so sheep-like and in anycase, fashion is fickle by its very nature. What's seen as masculine today is feminine tomorrow. Jesus's robes, those wierd pants Shakespeare wore, etc. 

Personally, I find it takes more courage to wear what you want than to submit to the bitching of everyone else. If there's one thing usually associated with traditional manliness, its confidence. Seems like a lot of people sure are insecure nowadays.


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## Rilvor (Mar 18, 2013)

I was not aware that fishnets are something only homosexual men were allowed to wear. I suppose us Goth men have handfulls of strikes against us, for all the things we like.

TA, you're not doing much more than blathering your opinion in an arena where you will seem like less of a churl for it. I can speak frankly in saying that if the deep south did not bother me about my attire, chances are you're putting yourself into a majority that is a lot smaller than you think.

The only reason people don't run their mouths about kilts is because the men who wear kilts would break you in half. 

There really is nothing wrong with effeminate dressing on men. Whether or not they make it look good is another thing entirely.


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## -={Dracimonde}=- (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> People dress different for a reason. If that reason is a political statement, they better be ready to back it up. If it's to make social commentary, they too better be ready to back up their decision. If they're wearing something for attention or to advertise, "HEY! I'm a submissive homosexual!" then they deserve a hard smack up the backside of the head.



wow...I...just wow... I just lost all respect for you. You make me sick...


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 18, 2013)

I have literally lost neurons trying to understand where you guys are coming from.



> Personally, I find it takes more courage to wear what you want than to submit to the bitching of everyone else. If there's one thing usually associated with traditional manliness, its confidence. Seems like a lot of people sure are insecure nowadays.



There's a difference between courage and stupidity. Walking into traffic isn't courageous, it's stupid. Wearing clothing that's explicitly meant for females isn't trendy, it's ridiculous. During that whole emo phase when all the skinny boys were walking around in women's pants, the criticism I always heard wasn't "Hahaha girls pants!" it was "What on god's green earth... they don't even FIT RIGHT!" It was an eyesore, like those baggy pants the urban market insists on wearing.



> There really is nothing wrong with effeminate dressing on men. Whether or not they make it look good is another thing entirely.



There's nothing morally reprehensible about it, I mean I'd rather see guys walking around in women's clothing than the Star Wars prequels, but they don't look good, and the reasons they wear the clothing can usually be summed up into 3 categories: A complete lapse in fashion sense, social irony, or a desperate attempt for attention. Emos would be #1, people trying to make a statement with an air of humor are #2, the vast majority are #3.



> wow...I...just wow... I just lost all respect for you. You make me sick...



Sig'd


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## -={Dracimonde}=- (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I have literally lost neurons trying to understand where you guys are coming from.



I'm not even going to bother commenting on this.



TeenageAngst said:


> There's a difference between courage and stupidity. Walking into traffic isn't courageous, it's stupid. Wearing clothing that's explicitly meant for females isn't trendy, it's ridiculous. During that whole emo phase when all the skinny boys were walking around in women's pants, the criticism I always heard wasn't "Hahaha girls pants!" it was "What on god's green earth... they don't even FIT RIGHT!" It was an eyesore, like those baggy pants the urban market insists on wearing.





TeenageAngst said:


> There's nothing morally reprehensible about it, I mean I'd rather see guys walking around in women's clothing than the Star Wars prequels, but they don't look good, and the reasons they wear the clothing can usually be summed up into 3 categories: A complete lapse in fashion sense, social irony, or a desperate attempt for attention. Emos would be #1, people trying to make a statement with an air of humor are #2, the vast majority are #3.



Considering that you've not changed at all even after the "Help regarding transgender" thread and now this... you've convinced me you're a complete asshole and have little if any consideration at all about other people's feelings and that you're immature enough as to resort to judging people for something as trivial as what clothes they wear. Now if you're talking about judging people because they are wearing skimpy outfits and the like in public then I can understand that. I just don't understand why didn't clarify this in the first place. Who would want their kids to see something like that, and I'm talking about _anyone_ who reveals certain body parts in public, not just homosexuals and transgenders. But you seem to have a general hatred for anyone who dresses as the opposite sex, even if it's just a normal skirt or dress a woman would wear.

Just stop being a dick maybe... please? Pfft... my hopes are in vein.



TeenageAngst said:


> Sig'd



Have fun with it. It suits you.


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## Ozriel (Mar 18, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> I was not aware that fishnets are something only homosexual men were allowed to wear. I suppose us Goth men have handfulls of strikes against us, for all the things we like.



I know right? :V

Unless you are referring to the shirts and arm warmers...then again, I have seen a few men wear the stockings with shorts before.
You gotta to love gender stereotypes and conformation Bias. If a woman wants to wear a pant suit and look androgynous, it makes her a dyke. If a man decides to wear a fishnet shirt and black nail polish, it makes him a girly wimp.


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## Mike Lobo (Mar 18, 2013)

Well, Op, you can do what I do: 

Don't give a fuck.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> If they're wearing something for attention or to advertise, "HEY! I'm a submissive homosexual!" then they deserve a hard smack up the backside of the head.



I dress girly, have no mens pants, no mens underwear, hang my bangs cut, wear my hair in a high pony tail, I walk around brandishing cameras while yelling at people and making indie films with military assault weapons in it.  Sorry if the fact that I have black and pink Tripp pants conflicts with me not being submissive enough to your tastes. 


Seriously though, does anyone else get the feeling that TeenageAngst is just a victim of being mocked to the point of unhappiness, to such a point that he wants to see others as unhappy from the same things, to 'justify' his own unhappiness?  Like 'Yes, it's okay that I let others make me feel miserable, it's the way it's supposed to be, I was just out of line so they targeted me, now I must reinforce what I see as their expectations unto others, so they can 'correct' themselves as I have' or something like that?


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## Troj (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I wasn't openly advocating violence you tit.



Because people love to play fast-and-loose with that line, I have to be very clear about where it is.

I've seen a lot of "well-intentioned" policing of "what's right" or "what's normal" get very, very ugly, when the wrong dominoes happened to fall.



> It's like the person's terrified others won't notice.



Sometimes, yeah, and other times, other motives or intentions are at work. One size does not fit all (ha).

To varying degrees, and in different ways, people use their dress and physical appearance to tell a story about themselves, their interests, and their values--sometimes intentionally, sometimes unconsciously. Even the person who chooses to wear a burlap sack is telling you something about their beliefs and values, and something about how they'd like to be perceived or received.

If we're correcting femboys for daring to advertise that they're submissive homosexuals, do we also need to scold other presumptuous, pushy people who use their clothing and/or mannerisms to advertise the fact that they are straight and submissive, or straight and dominant, or gay and dominant? What's good for the goose, after all...

What about other fashion sins? On a daily basis, I see much, much worse things on people in general than fishnet stockings. (If you ask me, there ought to be a license to wear capri pants, for example, and kitten sweaters should just be verboten.)

Well, and in any case, if you give attention to someone who's actively seeking attention--even if it's just to smack 'em on the head--aren't you reinforcing the behavior, and thereby increasing the chance that you'll see more of the same behavior from that attention-seeking individual?


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## Streetcircus (Mar 18, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I like this part of your post I must say. People put too much emphasis on sexuality these days anyway; however, I think the deeper issue always returns to the epic (and apparently hard to kill) hatred some people have for women. The entire reason people freak out over gay men is because they "lower themselves" to the level the female sex.
> 
> Dress like a fag? That's pole dancer attire...and only women can be pole dancers!!11!!1 The sluts. :V And even the kilt joke gets old as it totally undermines the entire argument that dresses are feminine. What's the sin of being a crossdresser? That you forgo what society thinks is masculine. Kilts are a-ok cuz only the menfolk don them. It's so sheep-like and in anycase, fashion is fickle by its very nature. What's seen as masculine today is feminine tomorrow. Jesus's robes, those wierd pants Shakespeare wore, etc.
> 
> Personally, I find it takes more courage to wear what you want than to submit to the bitching of everyone else. If there's one thing usually associated with traditional manliness, its confidence. Seems like a lot of people sure are insecure nowadays.



You're ignoring the fact that men's clothes are designed for the male form, and women's clothes are designed for the female form. Even buying clothes designed specifically for your gender, you have to be careful to wear something that compliments your own personal figure. If you can't pull off a tank-top, you shouldn't wear it. A lot of woman don't look good in skirts because of their stocky legs and blocky hips, so it's not likely a male is going to look good in one.

It's important to remain peasant to the senses of those around you, and the artists employed in fashion design have a keen sense of what is appropriate for specific body types. It's best to defer to the experts. Men who wear women's clothes is off-putting because it conveys a lack of self-awareness and taste. Just like you don't want to tell a bad joke, you also won't want to look unappealing. It's the same thing.


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## Troj (Mar 18, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> It's important to remain peasant to the senses of those around you



Why? Why is that important?

Some people will _never_ be sufficiently "pleasant" to the "senses" of those around them, _even if_ they attempt to dress the part. What of them?

To my mind, the purpose of dressing well and tastefully is so that one can feel better, more empowered, and more comfortable in one's own skin, and have a personal sense of pride; and so that one can elicit reactions one desires from other people in a given context.

Anyone who's actually upset that my ugly crippled ass sullies the glory and beauty of their personal landscape can go get fucked in the eye.



> and the artists employed in fashion design have a keen sense of what is appropriate for specific body types.



Hardly. That might be true of a few of the very high-end designers, but for the most part, it seems most clothing lines cater to idealized body types and this season's supposedly-hot colours. 

Most of what I see at standard department stores is just flat-out ugly, and too many garments appear to have been designed with chimpanzees in mind, so that most people will have to get the legs and/or the sleeves taken in.

Additionally, have you guys even ever SEEN some of the more talented drag kings and drag queens? There are transvestites that look better in women's clothing than I do!


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 18, 2013)

I just don't like being forced to like the person, because if I give them this specific reason, I feel like a bad person who's against society, that's what liberals make me feel like, and that's what they say. Like you are forced to give a legit reason. Being that the fandom is full of gay and Bi-sexual people, you are rather forced to accept every other thing as well, like this fandom is some kind of left wing party. I don't care, people can be what they want, but it's how you know people will view you as for feeling this way. Even gay people in here who posted, feel as I do.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 18, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> You're ignoring the fact that men's clothes are designed for the male form, and women's clothes are designed for the female form. Even buying clothes designed specifically for your gender, you have to be careful to wear something that compliments your own personal figure. If you can't pull off a tank-top, you shouldn't wear it. A lot of woman don't look good in skirts because of their stocky legs and blocky hips, so it's not likely a male is going to look good in one.
> 
> It's important to remain peasant to the senses of those around you, and the artists employed in fashion design have a keen sense of what is appropriate for specific body types. It's best to defer to the experts. Men who wear women's clothes is off-putting because it conveys a lack of self-awareness and taste. Just like you don't want to tell a bad joke, you also won't want to look unappealing. It's the same thing.



Whether people look good in their clothes is rather their own business. Why should you care whether their clothes match the trends of london's latest 'expertise'? 

Aesthetic isn't a measure of someone's worth.


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## Rilvor (Mar 18, 2013)

Troj said:


> Why? Why is that important?
> 
> Some people will _never_ be sufficiently "pleasant" to the "senses" of those around them, _even if_ they attempt to dress the part. What of them?
> 
> ...



You have the most beautiful posts here, you really do.

One must understand that comfort is entirely relative. My partner is more comfortable in men's clothing, and I fully support her doing so (Not to mention nice suits are lovely). I do not understand why she prefers men's clothing, but so what? It is what makes her comfortable, and she still has plenty of nice clothes on the opposite side of things as well. Not to mention Women's Pants are abysmal, plenty of them don't even have pockets or have this awful tiny fake pockets.

One cannot help but feel dislike for something they do not like and feel would be uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean one should let that overcome their personal merits; Because it doesn't.

On that note, not all feminine men who wear some typically female-associated items are exactly femboys either.


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## Ikrit (Mar 18, 2013)

open mindedness does not mean acceptance, it means that you acknowledge there is something there

that fact that you acknowledge that you think you might be closed minded actually means you are openminded.  no closed minded person would call themselves as such.

you are not expected to like everything, thats stupid to even try.  you don't need to be accepting of everything, but you can be tolerant of it.  It is perfectly fine to say "I don't like it, but i'll tolerate it."


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## Azure (Mar 18, 2013)

Troj said:


> Anyone who's actually upset that my ugly crippled ass sullies the glory and beauty of their personal landscape can go get fucked in the eye.


I take much satisfaction in being offensive to others in my dress and appearance. Not giving a fuck is a power all its own.



Troj said:


> Additionally, have you guys even ever SEEN some of the more talented drag kings and drag queens? There are transvestites that look better in women's clothing than I do!


god bless them, every one.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 18, 2013)

Eddie Izzard is my hero.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 18, 2013)

> I dress girly, have no mens pants, no mens underwear, hang my bangs cut, wear my hair in a high pony tail, I walk around brandishing cameras while yelling at people and making indie films with military assault weapons in it. Sorry if the fact that I have black and pink Tripp pants conflicts with me not being submissive enough to your tastes.



Ugh... you're a *film student* that certainly explains a lot.



> What about other fashion sins? On a daily basis, I see much, much worse things on people in general than fishnet stockings. (If you ask me, there ought to be a license to wear capri pants, for example, and kitten sweaters should just be verboten.)



People like to overlook the fact that I've compared men wearing women's clothing to emos and those obnoxious women wearing sweatshirts, yoga pants, and Uggs all together. It's not something that morally bothers me, that'd be ridiculous. It's something that fucking pisses me off because it's absolutely hideous and speaks volumes of your poor taste. It's as bad as the fedoras walking into class and not showering. It's not morally reprehensible to not shower (or wear a fedora for that matter) but my god it's unpleasant for everyone around you, same thing here but with clothes.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 18, 2013)

I'd argue that I pull off women's clothes quite nicely.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 18, 2013)

Anybody who judges other people based on what they wear is a fucking toolbox, anyway.


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## Willow (Mar 18, 2013)

What is aesthetically pleasing is subjecting certainly but to be fair, that's not an excuse to not have some consideration for the people you come in contact with. Some people won't be so nice to you if you smell like a dirty asshole. 

That is if you can help it.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 18, 2013)

Just a personal anecdote while we're on the subject of making people feel bad about their clothing choices, my friend and I were walking around the mall one day bored out of our minds and somehow we managed to find ourselves in the middle of Macy's. So we were just wandering around and ended up in the shoe section, and we noticed something. The men's section had like work shoes, running shoes, work boots, dress shoes, regular ol' sneakers, sandals, all kinds of stuff. The women's section was almost entirely heels, useless boots, or useless boots with heels. At one point we found some boots that went up to a girl's knee but they were like all this ridiculous red leather, and my friend is like, "Man, who the hell would spend that much money to wear these? They look like stripper boots."

I replied, "I know, right? I usually don't care about shoes, but my god if a woman hit on me wearing those, I'd shut her down."

We didn't notice at first but a woman was looking at that exact pair of boots on the rack next to us and overheard our conversation. She gave us this sheepish look and timidly placed the shoebox back on the shelf. This turned into the next hour's entertainment; finding women checking out clothing and making criticizing remarks about whatever they were looking at. This lead us to two conclusions. One, that the women's department is like twice the size of the men's department. And two, that women are _really_ sensitive to what people think about their clothes.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 18, 2013)

Society is so adamant on keeping males and females as two separate and highly different entities. However, we're all just human beings. There's nothing around with a black guy wearing golf pants and a polo shirt, so there ought not to be anything wrong with a guy wearing a dress and makeup.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 18, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> Society is so adamant on keeping males and females as two separate and highly different entities. However, we're all just human beings. There's nothing around with a black guy wearing golf pants and a polo shirt, so there ought not to be anything wrong with a guy wearing a dress and makeup.



y he gotta be black. Golf pants are horrid on *anyone* with the possible exceptions of Johnny Carson, Arnold Palmer, and Rodney Dangerfield.

And if you're seriously wondering why men shouldn't wear makeup or dress like women you've obviously never been to a Def Leppard concert.


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## Ozriel (Mar 18, 2013)

People who are confusing tolerance with acceptance needs to see the "Death camp of tolerance" episode of South park.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> And if you're seriously wondering why men shouldn't wear makeup or dress like women you've obviously never been to a Def Leppard concert.



I fail to see the relevance. 

Def Leppard is fucking awesome.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> And two, that women are _really_ sensitive to what people think about their clothes.



Or that you found a bunch of sheep...Or you that made that shit up... -_- 

I know that if I were a woman I wouldn't give two fucks what some lost-in-the-mall twenty somethings thought.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 18, 2013)

Willow said:


> What is *aesthetically* pleasing is subjecting certainly but to be fair, that's not an excuse to not have some consideration for the people you come in contact with. Some people won't be so nice to you if you *smell like a dirty asshole.
> *
> That is if you can help it.



Personally I smell with my nose, rather than my eyes. x3


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## Ricky (Mar 18, 2013)

You all are trapped in such a bubble, when someone has an opposing view that mirrors mainstream America, you freak out and think he is Satan. I sometimes wonder how _any of you_ get by in the Real World with people who aren't furries or LGBT :roll:


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 18, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You all are trapped in such a bubble, when someone has an opposing view that mirrors mainstream America, you freak out and think he is Satan. I sometimes wonder how _any of you_ get by in the Real World with people who aren't furries or LGBT :roll:



In my life, people like TeenageAngst there just sit quietly in the corner, friendless, and not talking to anyone because their ideas make others uncomfortable.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 18, 2013)

In my life, people like TeenageAngst are kind of the majority. I just smoke weed and ignore them. :U


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## Ricky (Mar 18, 2013)

Most people, in the US at least, are *not okay* with cross dressing. Mind you, most of these people aren't going to say or do anything about it, except maybe a drunk redneck here or there. Still, by doing anything seen by society as "extreme" you are opening the door for adverse reaction.

I'm not saying that's GOOD but it is the way things are. As long as people realize this before they do such things, I say "all the power to them." I personally have a lot of respect for people who just do what they want and say "fuck everyone else."


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## Hinalle K. (Mar 18, 2013)

AshleyAshes said:


> In my life, people like TeenageAngst there just sit quietly in the corner, friendless, and not talking to anyone because their ideas make others uncomfortable.


You live in Canada, no surprise there.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 18, 2013)

AshleyAshes said:


> In my life, people like TeenageAngst there just sit quietly in the corner, friendless, and not talking to anyone because their ideas make others uncomfortable.



In my life, people who crossdress usually come from an abusive family, have deep psychological scarring, and are openly hostile to hapless bystanders who don't acknowledge how "unique" they are. Then again I live in the south.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 18, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> In my life, people who crossdress usually come from an abusive family, have deep psychological scarring, and are openly hostile to hapless bystanders who don't acknowledge how "unique" they are. Then again I live in the south.



Of course my uniqueness needs to be acknowledged!  Look at what I do with my life!  I get to wear girls jeans -and- play with police cars! 

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/AshleyAshes2/CrownVicPromo.jpg

So how's all that 'college and university is evil' thing going for ya, Angsty-Pants?


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## Mike Lobo (Mar 18, 2013)

fight moar pls


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## Ricky (Mar 19, 2013)

I know, right?

You two are starting to sound like a married couple :V


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 19, 2013)

I stepped on a bug once.

Because it was DIFFERENT.


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## Rilvor (Mar 19, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> Or that you found a bunch of sheep...Or you that made that shit up... -_-
> 
> I know that if I were a woman I wouldn't give two fucks what some lost-in-the-mall twenty somethings thought.



And yet, at the same time not everyone is so strong and it is shameful to see others behave in such a childish manner.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 19, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> Society is so adamant on keeping males and females as two separate and highly different entities. However, we're all just human beings. There's nothing around with a black guy wearing golf pants and a polo shirt, so there ought not to be anything wrong with a guy wearing a dress and makeup.


 Well they actually are kind of separate to me. I see male and female have a totally different image, and I see love differently towards them both and how I communicate with them, etc... To see a guy or girl cross-dress sort of confuses me, I don't know whether to call him/her a Sir or Ma'am, because they often have traits of both, and if you say the wrong thing, they get mad at you and shit. For me, I like the the fact that there is a difference between male and female, because I view them differently. I understand that people have gender identity issues as well as people who are hermaphrodites, but I am just stating my opinion of the main two genders, and how I feel towards them both.


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## Troj (Mar 19, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> Anybody who judges other people based on what they wear is a fucking toolbox, anyway.



I admit I judge people based on their appearance, if only fleetingly.

I think my pet peeves tend to revolve around people who don't seem to "know" their own bodies either caring too little about their appearance, or obviously caring too much. 

But--and here's the important thing--I don't take it upon myself to play fashion police and inform them that their hot pants are a violation of the Geneva Conventions, nor do I feel that people are somehow obligated to dress nicely for me.

And, I actually tend to _enjoy_, and even, respect people who dress with intentionality, even if the end result is eccentric or odd, because at least they're having fun with it. 

One of my favorite people back in Washington state was this woman whom I often saw in the grocery store, and who always dressed like a street walker who wanted to be seen from space--pleather, leather, hoochie boots, fishnet stockings, thick-as-syrup makeup, giant 80s hair. She was also a sweetheart to boot. As the saying goes, go big or go home, and she'd clearly taken that to heart. I dug her style .


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 19, 2013)

The whiteness of this forum sometimes baffles me. "afldksjgl you think men who dress like WOMEN are WEIRD!? You're an asshole! I bet you think  people who are flamboyantly gay and feminazis and Mennonites are weird too!"


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## Fallowfox (Mar 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> The whiteness of this forum sometimes baffles me. "afldksjgl you think men who dress like WOMEN are WEIRD!? You're an asshole! I bet you think  people who are flamboyantly gay and feminazis and Mennonites are weird too!"



How is this contrived person's view 'white' ?


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 19, 2013)

A white person is someone who's life is so middle-class, so uninteresting, so free of serious financial, social, and life issues and previous personal trauma that they have time to sit back and reflect on themselves to the point of self-actualization. The irony is that, because they've experienced almost no legitimate struggles, they can't personally relate to people who have, and thus the veiwpoints of less actualized people are considered juvenile, cynical, old-fashioned, or just plain awful. Their own viewpoints in turn are considered irrational, naive, or too optimistic. The problems they do have tend to magnify themselves, so a white person who's picked on for wearing lady clothes will view it as earth-shattering a problem as someone from a lower-income family dealing with the transmission on their only car giving out when they need it to get to work. The poor person will view the lady-clothes issue as straightforward and silly. If you break social cues you get picked on for being too incompetent to pick up on the social cues, so just don't wear the lady clothes. Likewise, the white person simply can't imagine what the car scenario is like beyond the superficial and feels no guilt about complaining about their own problems, because they can carry the label of "discrimination" and are thus automatically important for some reason.

Basically white people don't have real problems so they make shit up to draw attention to themselves to be offended about, and poor people ain't got time for their bullshit.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A white person is someone who's life is so middle-class, so uninteresting, so free of serious financial, social, and life issues and previous personal trauma that they have time to sit back and reflect on themselves to the point of self-actualization. The irony is that, because they've experienced almost no legitimate struggles, they can't personally relate to people who have, and thus the veiwpoints of less actualized people are considered juvenile, cynical, old-fashioned, or just plain awful. Their own viewpoints in turn are considered irrational, naive, or too optimistic. The problems they do have tend to magnify themselves, so a white person who's picked on for wearing lady clothes will view it as earth-shattering a problem as someone from a lower-income family dealing with the transmission on their only car giving out when they need it to get to work. The poor person will view the lady-clothes issue as straightforward and silly. If you break social cues you get picked on for being too incompetent to pick up on the social cues, so just don't wear the lady clothes. Likewise, the white person simply can't imagine what the car scenario is like beyond the superficial and feels no guilt about complaining about their own problems, because they can carry the label of "discrimination" and are thus automatically important for some reason.
> 
> Basically white people don't have real problems so they make shit up to draw attention to themselves to be offended about, and poor people ain't got time for their bullshit.



Here I was thinking that white was a skin colour, rather than a philosophy. 
You previously argued that people who cross dress had abusive histories. 



TeenageAngst said:


> In my life, people who crossdress usually  come from an abusive family, have deep psychological scarring, and are  openly hostile to hapless bystanders who don't acknowledge how "unique"  they are. Then again I live in the south.



Now you're arguing that they're also priveleged and sheltered from the world? Which is it? 

I suppose you're the kind of person whose personal anecdotes trump _whatever _anybody else says, or even what you yourself say.

And naturally you can pick on someone for whatever trivial and pathetic reason you like because it's never as bad as your life, which is so much more difficult than everyone else's that you're _entitled _to your prejudices.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> The whiteness of this forum sometimes baffles me.


Said the young angry white guy who thinks he's so hardcore and is upset with the world about his student loans...?


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## ursiphiliac (Mar 19, 2013)

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to reply to the OP and ignore the rest of this thread. ._.



TheMetalVelocity said:


> Why do I feel like I cannot get over my Christian mindset even though I moved away from Christianity? I feel uncomfortable around certain people for their sexuality/fetishes, like, for example, when I see femboy stuff on FA and find out the person is one, I get this uncomfortable and insecure feeling, like I get this OCD kind of thing. it feels like it goes against my nature of humanity, like since i'm a guy, being around a guy like a girl feels weird and unnatural, like I cannot be comfortable associating with them or be comfortable around them. I feel a little bit like a bad person for this. I mean heck, even the conservative Christians on FA seem to be better than me. I am picky about the people I like to associate with, religion/non-religion/sex/ethnic/political etc.. and it makes me feel a little bad for myself that I'm like this. All my life, the things that I'm not familiar with cause me to have social-anxiety/panic attacks, although this is something totally different. I am very picky about who I feel comfortable with for any reason. It's almost like I cannot handle diversity, like I need people who think like me or is like me in some sort of way in order to feel comfortable with, or just people who can handle how I am personally. Being that the whole furry fandom is open to diversity and acceptance, I know I am going to be hated if I tell anyone on FA this. I usually keep it to my self, but I like to be honest. I'm letting people know that I have a problem, which is why I posted this. I am trying to adjust. I do have some sort of tolerance though.



I can relate to your thoughts here, and I have to say that they sound completely normal and understandable. I grew up in a very Christian, conservative area and family, dominated by the Southern Baptist church. That mindset was ingrained in me just as in you. The difference is, I grew up to realize that I was attracted to men and not attracted to women, and I've since become very active in the LGBT community. So maybe my story can be a glimpse into what is possible, or what life would be like in different circumstances for people who come from similar backgrounds.

I knew about my sexuality as soon as puberty hit, but it took a long time to come to terms with. When I first became aware of it, it really seemed like the tiniest thing on a personal level -- I was attracted to certain people, like everyone is -- but on a non-personal level, it's a very heavy thing, especially in the social, political, and religious context in which I was raised. I broke away from Christianity, also, and I moved away from the area I grew up and started my own life, where I could try to work out some of these issues on my own.

For starters, I want to qualify that I'm not "stereotypical." My mannerisms and speech are considered masculine, and even some of my interests (just going by what other people say; personally I think gendered categorization of hobbies is unnecessary.) So nobody ever suspected I was gay. It was really only after I met some people in person who I came to care about and who I came to learn were gay themselves that it hit me that I was shackled by all these deeply ingrained fears, and I decided that overcoming these fears would be my big project. I came out of the closet when I was 22-24 over the span of about 14 months, first to all my local friends and one of my workplaces, then to my siblings, then to my parents and extended family, and finally to my 'back-home' friends (I didn't want to tell them first and have it get to my family before I was ready). I didn't lose a single friend over it, despite most of them being Christian. My parents and immediate family came to embrace it over time. It was a struggle, but they realized I was the same person I always was, and they took the initiative to educate themselves on what being gay really is and means, which was awesome (I truly thought they would reject me). Oddly, the only people who have had trouble with it were extended family I hardly knew anyway.

The fears and discomfort that you and I had, whether partly natural or mostly just sociological, can definitely seem rational considering the context. Fear of the unknown and fear of differences is pretty normal. But I knew I couldn't hold onto them, however rational they were, because my fears and discomfort made my friendships with other gay people awkward and unnecessarily distant, and I realized that was ridiculous, because the people who I knew who were gay were good people and, after all, I was one of them. Therefor however rational, they were unreasonable. I decided I needed to explore the different corners of society and let exposure to different people on a personal level reshape the way I feel about things. Good, decent people who are different or on the margins of society for whatever reason, don't deserve fear. I became involved in the LGBT student organization at my university, I started dating a guy who lived in a nearby city (2 hr drive) who introduced me to gay life in that city -- gay bars, events, an LGBT orchestra (I'm a classical musician), the gay rodeo, house parties with a large circle of diverse LGBT people, etc. It all became very clear that people are just people, no matter the differences. I have met people of all races, all ages, all backgrounds, many political leanings, many religious views, falling anywhere on the masculine-feminine scale, whether man or woman, intersex, transgender, genderqueer, whatever, and homo-, hetero-, bi-, and even asexual. Whether someone was likable or unlikable had nothing to do with any of these qualities, I found.

A very important lesson I've learned, and I hope you can figure this out to, is that breaking down these barriers doesn't change who you are, your identity, your self image, or self confidence. I haven't changed who I am. I learned to be very comfortable with myself, even though I can be like night and day to other gay people. I've learned to embrace differences. Giving a young effeminate gay boy a hug, blowing a kiss to a drag queen, or telling a transwoman (a male-to-female transgender) she looks fabulous today doesn't undermine my image or masculinity. They're my friends, not mirrors of my identity, and I really don't care if anyone thinks otherwise, because they're wrong. It also doesn't reflect on who I'm personally attracted to, which happens to be the more masculine to hypermasculine end of the spectrum (which is very much represented in the gay male community, by the way, even if it's not a subset that's as visible or obvious as the effeminate subset).

I think what was important for me, and possibly would be for you, is not to try to overcome these things for people in general, strangers, especially people on the internet. It should be overcome through real, personal interaction with people you have come to know and care about. Now, I met a plethora of different people because I thrust myself into those corners of society, as part of that project of overcoming these things. For you, don't force it. You don't need to. Just be open to the possibility, and be aware of when you might be pushing away "different" people or chances to get to know them, and instead see it as an opportunity to work on those fears and discomfort. Because that _is_ the opportunity to do it. Find out who they are and what makes them tick, what makes them human and what they have in common with you, and their differences fade away, become irrelevant, and change your mind. Don't have anxiety over trying to overcome these fears and discomfort because of the furry fandom. It's not the way. It would just be much harder to do and to be genuine. Wait for the chances that arise in person, in real life.

My closing thoughts: The biggest moment of shaking-in-my-boots, overwhelming fear was when I was a long-distance relationship with a guy in California who was very open about PDA and lived in a city where it was very acceptable. Holding hands, romantic embraces, kissing in the mall, on the streets, in the park, in front of families, people of all generations, and reactions being pretty much exactly as they would be for a straight couple... that was quite a learning experience for this ex-Southern Baptist boy. I like to think it was a glimpse into what more of our cities will be like later in my life. For the LGBT community, the breaking down of oppression in the last 40 years has been astounding. I know elderly gay people who to this day, in a room full of their peers, still hesitate to say what they are because they still can't believe it's safe, that the room isn't full of danger. They tremble at the thought of coming out when they were young. I very much look forward to the next 40 years and experiencing that kind of change within my life, too. I've already witnessed quite a bit myself in the past decade.


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## Rilvor (Mar 19, 2013)

What an impressive story, I applaud your confidence and search for understanding of our fellows.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 19, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Well they actually are kind of separate to me. I see male and female have a totally different image, and I see love differently towards them both and how I communicate with them, etc... To see a guy or girl cross-dress sort of confuses me, I don't know whether to call him/her a Sir or Ma'am, because they often have traits of both, and if you say the wrong thing, they get mad at you and shit. For me, I like the the fact that there is a difference between male and female, because I view them differently. I understand that people have gender identity issues as well as people who are hermaphrodites, but I am just stating my opinion of the main two genders, and how I feel towards them both.


Okay, that's what you see in males and females, but it doesn't make it right for society to try and FORCE those stereotypes.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 19, 2013)

AshleyAshes said:


> Said the young angry white guy who thinks he's so hardcore and is upset with the world about his student loans...?



Since when have I complained about my student loans? I've complained about my credit card debt, which is a related but different kettle of fish involving not nearly enough work hours and way too many living expenses. And I don't think I'm hardcore either, just moreso than some privileged Canuck.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A white person is...



Maybe you should go to the writing subforum for your fictional stories, TA. Cuz you just pulled that out of your ass...


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 19, 2013)

> A very important lesson I've learned, and I hope you can figure this out to, is that breaking down these barriers doesn't change who you are, your identity, your self image, or self confidence. I haven't changed who I am. I learned to be very comfortable with myself, even though I can be like night and day to other gay people. I've learned to embrace differences. Giving a young effeminate gay boy a hug, blowing a kiss to a drag queen, or telling a transwoman (a male-to-female transgender) she looks fabulous today doesn't undermine my image or masculinity. They're my friends, not mirrors of my identity, and I really don't care if anyone thinks otherwise, because they're wrong. It also doesn't reflect on who I'm personally attracted to, which happens to be the more masculine to hypermasculine end of the spectrum (which is very much represented in the gay male community, by the way, even if it's not a subset that's as visible or obvious as the effeminate subset).



This is something I haven't mentioned but I wanna do it before this shit gets closed because once again I've grabbed an annoying thread by the horns and derailed it like the housing market derailed the economy. That is the inherent narcissism that just oozes out of statements like that.

"I really don't care if anyone thinks otherwise, because they're wrong." Fuck you, George Lucas had that attitude when he made the Star Wars prequels.

I'm no stranger to offensive or weird clothing but I wear such fully conscious of the responses I could elicit. When I wear my Bad Religion apparel I've been hounded by Christians, when I wear my RATM shirt I've pissed off cranky veterans, when I walk around in a Rainbow Dash shirt, purple collar, and skinny jeans I'm branded as a "fag", and don't even get me started on that time I wore a pink collared shirt (popped collar of course) with a backwards, upside-down Underarmor visor. That was a trip XD nevertheless it wasn't "oh man I hope no one makes fun of me" or "if people make fun of me they're assholes." Because they're not, at least not necessarily. I was wearing clothing that expressed a part of me, and like everything else about you, not everyone's gonna like it. Hell, not everyone's gonna put up with it, especially if they're forced to interact with you. It's selfish to think you can just wear whatever the hell you want and not expect anyone else to say a fucking word because you're god's gift to fashion. Likewise it's selfish to think you can dictate what other people say by harassing them into submission. There's a middle-ground, and it's right around when something bothers you to the point it's needlessly distracting, you can either get over it or say something about it. Like the smelly guy in class, you can either avoid him, deal with it, or tell him he needs to fucking bathe because you sit through a 3 hour lecture dealing with his musk. If he's embarrassed and starts showering, problem solved. If he tells you to fuck off, there's your answer. Same thing, cept it's with offensive clothing.

Basically I'm just endlessly frustrated with people keeping their opinions to themselves out of fear or feeling like they have to be accepting of every aneurysm-induced opinion that floats around society like so much refuse in the sewer. It's a two way street. You can wear whatever the hell you want, I can say whatever the hell I want about it. No one's opinion is sacrosanct.


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## ursiphiliac (Mar 19, 2013)

I really don't see how any of that relates to what you quoted, and I'm not sure you do either.

To clarify, I'm talking about association and interaction with other people, which is very different from personal expression (your wearing of a Rainbow Dash shirt, for instance). It would be more like you being friendly to someone who's wearing one. Having Mexican friends doesn't make you Mexican. Being with a girl doesn't make you one. If people make these assumptions, are you supposed to let that govern your fears and dictate how you interact with people? I get the impression you're saying yes, if we're even talking about the same thing.


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## Azure (Mar 19, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Well they actually are kind of separate to me. I see male and female have a totally different image, and I see love differently towards them both and how I communicate with them, etc... To see a guy or girl cross-dress sort of confuses me, I don't know whether to call him/her a Sir or Ma'am, because they often have traits of both, and if you say the wrong thing, they get mad at you and shit. For me, I like the the fact that there is a difference between male and female, because I view them differently. I understand that people have gender identity issues as well as people who are hermaphrodites, but I am just stating my opinion of the main two genders, and how I feel towards them both.


if you ever have a problem identifying if a person is male or female or wants to be called what, ASK THEM. they wont bite your head off. and if they do, fuck them because they are rude.


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## Rilvor (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Basically I'm just endlessly frustrated with people keeping their opinions to themselves out of fear or feeling like they have to be accepting of every aneurysm-induced opinion that floats around society like so much refuse in the sewer. It's a two way street. You can wear whatever the hell you want, I can say whatever the hell I want about it. No one's opinion is sacrosanct.



Sure, this is fair. The thing is TA, social awareness goes much further than that. Likely, you do not care about this. It is not always about being gentle with people, it is about talking to them in a way they will understand while being very convincing.

No one is going to listen to someone who sounds like just another self-loathing geek. They're dime-a-dozen and just as easy to ignore as Larry The Cable Guy.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

So you're saying I should just skip the long, rambling, barely-coherent pages of posts where I erratically jump from one talking point to the next and instead just post the 2-3 sentence summary of my opinion that I inevitably end up posting at the end?

What? You do know this is how I got my sig, right?


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## Rilvor (Mar 20, 2013)

I couldn't tell you. I hardly know anything about you or how you think, only how whatever mask you wear on this forum comes across as.

I'm not sure what you want, exactly.


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## Rasly (Mar 20, 2013)

I know what OP mean, that awkward feeling, i guess, that is how brainwashing works, i have no idea how to deal with it yet, except simply try to get over it.


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## benignBiotic (Mar 20, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Some ways I want to get over my fears, and in some ways I don't. The reason I do, is to fit more into the furry fandom and not be hated by other people who are different than me for having my beliefs. The reason I don't, is because if I do, I would feel less like myself, because I feel like those fears are part of what makes me who I am. I think if I do stop being this way, I would lose myself in some sort of way. I like having things the way they are to make me feel like myself.


The only reason you want to get over your fears is to get along better in the furry fandom?? Not to increase your understanding of different people and not for your own betterment? Hell coming to terms with your homophobic fear of 'femboys' would probably make your life easier because then you wouldn't have to go off on diatribes like the one we're currently embroiled in. 



> What's weird is that even my homophobic christian family gets mad at  people who use the term fag because they think it offends gays and stuff  WTF? They always say they don't accept homosexuality, but then say they  love our gay family members, dafuq?


I don't know your parents obvi, but hypocrisy is a thing now. My parents are 'accepting' of gays but don't want anything to do with them. Some people want to sound like they are worldly and accepting when in fact they are neither.


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## Troj (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> The whiteness of this forum sometimes baffles me. "afldksjgl you think men who dress like WOMEN are WEIRD!? You're an asshole! I bet you think  people who are flamboyantly gay and feminazis and Mennonites are weird too!"



Yes, because the ostensibly white Tea Party loves them the gays, the feminists, and the Mennonites. 

And there's certainly no history of homophobia or sexism among blacks, Asians, or Latinos. Black people LOVE the gays!  And nowhere are women treated with more respect than in Latin America! 

Oh wait--



> Basically I'm just endlessly frustrated with  people keeping their opinions to themselves out of fear or feeling like  they have to be accepting of every aneurysm-induced opinion that floats  around society like so much refuse in the sewer. It's a two way street.




With this, I largely agree. I am frustrated by situations in which everyone either keeps mum or speaks disingenuously, because any comment about any topic more controversial than the weather might prove "offensive" or "triggering" to someone in the room.

--And don't even _think_ about telling a _joke_! Oh my!

But, there's a happy medium, obviously, because we _don't_ need to share every little thing that pops into our brains--because not everything we think or even, believe is necessarily valuable, informed, instructive, accurate, sane, or helpful--and we _should_ still consider the feelings and rights of those around us, as we would want our own feelings and rights to be respected.

Also, if we want people to _act_ on our ideas, advice, or instructions, we need to articulate them in such a way that people will actually be inclined and motivated to do so!




> It's selfish to think you can just wear whatever  the hell you want and not expect anyone else to say a fucking word  because you're god's gift to fashion.




Well, and it's not just about whether people _say_ anything or not. Often, many people won't say something.

It's self-absorbed and myopic to think we can do, say, and wear whatever we want, and that these choices won't have some kind of an effect on others. 

Even more, it's stupid and naive to assume that people won't in some way _react _to what we've chosen to say, do, or wear. People may not always react to you in ways that are overt or obvious, or even, conscious, but react, they will.

If your manner of dress, speech, or behavior is offensive or alienating to people, even if you don't get called out, you may still end up isolated and ostracized.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 20, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> Okay, that's what you see in males and females, but it doesn't make it right for society to try and FORCE those stereotypes.


 It's not really a stereotype, at least I don't see it that way, because most people are born that way. It just helps me understand people better individually, so I prefer it.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 20, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> It's not really a stereotype.



It absolutely is.

Stereotypes of women are to dress up beautifully. Skirts, dresses, blouses, makeup, etc.

Stereotypes of men are to dress simple and be somewhat of a brute.


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## Kio Maru (Mar 20, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> It's not really a stereotype, at least I don't see it that way, because most people are born that way. It just helps me understand people better individually, so I prefer it.



I'm pretty sure cavewomen didn't wear dresses, plenty of tribes don't have sexually dimorphic dress, either.
Naturally, humans are born as what could be described as "nudists" and they found out they needed some clothing to protect them from the environment. Of course, some dress fits different figures but both women and men come in different shapes and sizes. It's the same for body gestures and social cues, too, gender identity is a learnt thing and it varies person to person and culture to culture, it is empirically noted, hence these are stereotypes (just for fun, you can see how gender stereotypes are even still now, always evolving in culture here).


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

A lot of people also assume stereotype = bad. Sometimes things are stereotyped that way because it makes sense from a logical perspective. Cars stereotypically have the engine in the front. Obviously Ferraris and Porsches don't, but they're atypical and weird. They also have different layouts for a specific purpose, Porsches don't have rear mounted engines just for yucks. People stereotypically will judge you by how well you speak too. You could be a college graduate, but if you sound like Rocky Balboa when you talk you're going to come across poorly because people will assume you're uneducated. This is social shorthand, we can't stop and process every single thing that comes our way, so we compartmentalize it until proven otherwise. This means that if you're a dude and you wear a dress in public, you're going to be put in everyone's "desperate for attention and weird" box until they're somehow forced into a conversation with you, because otherwise they'll likely avoid you or passively taunt you in an attempt to bring attention to the fact that you're a walking contradiction.

Strangely enough one of the first people I saw on campus today was a dude wearing a brightly colored dress. I think it was a dude anyway, his legs were shaved. Anyway I really didn't think anything of it. Then again he was Asian so that pretty much explained everything.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 20, 2013)

Why, in this case, would stereotypes be good? What is the point of separating the two genders so drastically?


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## Fallowfox (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A lot of people also assume stereotype = bad. Sometimes things are stereotyped that way because it makes sense from a logical perspective. Cars stereotypically have the engine in the front. Obviously Ferraris and Porsches don't, but they're atypical and weird. They also have different layouts for a specific purpose, Porsches don't have rear mounted engines just for yucks. People stereotypically will judge you by how well you speak too. You could be a college graduate, but if you sound like Rocky Balboa when you talk you're going to come across poorly because people will assume you're uneducated. This is social shorthand, we can't stop and process every single thing that comes our way, so we compartmentalize it until proven otherwise. This means that if you're a dude and you wear a dress in public, you're going to be put in everyone's "desperate for attention and weird" box until they're somehow forced into a conversation with you, because otherwise they'll likely avoid you or passively taunt you in an attempt to bring attention to the fact that you're a walking contradiction.
> 
> Strangely enough one of the first people I saw on campus today was a dude wearing a brightly colored dress. I think it was a dude anyway, his legs were shaved. Anyway I really didn't think anything of it. Then again he was Asian so that pretty much explained everything.



Alternatively, if our 'social shorthands' are leading us to erroneous conclusions or conclusions which actively promote unfounded derogation [or unfounded praise] then we'd be best ditching them and taking our own prejudices a little less seriously.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Then again he was Asian so that pretty much explained everything.


Hey, are there any mods interested in doing something about this direct statement of racism?


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> Why, in this case, would stereotypes be good? What is the point of separating the two genders so drastically?



CE taught me this. You see a pictures of a hot chick in a topic, and then later someone posts the full picture, and it's a shemale. You feel confused, slightly violated, and begin to wonder if you can still fap to this. Entire debates have circulated as to whether or not you can still fap to the cropped image. Gender differentiation prevents such awkwardness in public.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> CE taught me this. You see a pictures of a hot chick in a topic, and then later someone posts the full picture, and it's a shemale. You feel confused, slightly violated, and begin to wonder if you can still fap to this. Entire debates have circulated as to whether or not you can still fap to the cropped image. Gender differentiation prevents such awkwardness in public.



Another piece to the puzzle, TA...


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## Fallowfox (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> CE taught me this. You see a pictures of a hot chick in a topic, and then later someone posts the full picture, and it's a shemale. You feel confused, slightly violated, and begin to wonder if you can still fap to this. Entire debates have circulated as to whether or not you can still fap to the cropped image. Gender differentiation prevents such awkwardness in public.



...You don't seriously mean to suggest you complain about people who dress ambiguously because it interrupts the realism of your sexual fantasies? ._.


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## Ranguvar (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> CE taught me this. You see a pictures of a hot chick in a topic, and then later someone posts the full picture, and it's a shemale. You feel confused, slightly violated, and begin to wonder if you can still fap to this. Entire debates have circulated as to whether or not you can still fap to the cropped image. Gender differentiation prevents such awkwardness in public.



If it makes you feel any better, I'd probably still fap to it :/


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

About 40% of CE would still fap to it.



> ...You don't seriously mean to suggest you complain about people who dress ambiguously because it interrupts the realism of your sexual fantasies? ._.



Don't be ridiculous, I just don't like searching for pronouns.


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## Troj (Mar 20, 2013)

Fallowfox said:


> Alternatively, if our 'social shorthands' are leading us to erroneous conclusions or conclusions which actively promote unfounded derogation [or unfounded praise] then we'd be best ditching them and taking our own prejudices a little less seriously.



Word. 

Our brains develop schemas and stereotypes with the intention of helping us to react to and interact with reality easily, fluidly, and accurately. 

At the moment when a given schema, belief, stereotype, cognition, or what have you ceases to be helpful, productive, or adaptive, you should, at the very least, examine it, and then attempt to restructure/change it to the best of your ability. That's my reckoning, anyway.

For me, it's not about stereotypes in general being EEEEEEVIL, so much as it is about certain stereotypes just not being adaptive, accurate, and helpful.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

Troj said:


> Word.
> 
> Our brains develop schemas and stereotypes with the intention of helping us to react to and interact with reality easily, fluidly, and accurately.
> 
> ...



Cept that's usually too much work when you encounter it infrequently, which is why the shorthand is in place to begin with.


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## Troj (Mar 20, 2013)

Well, it depends.

If you have an inaccurate or unhelpful schema which is really only triggered once in a blue moon, _maybe_ you can afford to leave it alone, _especially _if it's _sometimes_ been halfway helpful or adaptive. 

If you have an inaccurate or unhelpful schema which is attached to OTHER schemas or cognitions which are triggered more frequently, then some re-analysis and cognitive restructuring might be in order.

I would say that if your stereotypes _don't _principally serve an adaptive or survival-based purpose, _and_ lead you to needlessly mistreat, burn bridges with, discriminate against, or hurt others more than just "once in a while," or if you repeatedly elicit, "Dude, what the hell?" types of responses from otherwise-sane-and-reasonable folks, those stereotypes and beliefs need to be re-examined.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

Troj said:


> Well, it depends.
> 
> If you have an inaccurate or unhelpful schema which is really only triggered once in a blue moon, _maybe_ you can afford to leave it alone, _especially _if it's _sometimes_ been halfway helpful or adaptive.
> 
> ...



Well yeah but that's an enormous grey area. There's several miles of distance between being a KKK member and being uneasy in a northern Philadelphia cash-n-go at 1:30am on a Saturday. Where the line is drawn is dependent on the individual, which is why it baffles me that, with the exception of flagrant discrimination (that is, actually breaching constitutional and civil rights), people are so quick to judge other people's judgments, if that makes sense? Like I said, you can dress how you want, I can say what I want about it, we're even Steven. People can think I'm an asshole, people can think you're a weirdo. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I guess.


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## Kio Maru (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A lot of people also assume stereotype = bad. Sometimes things are stereotyped that way because it makes sense from a logical perspective. Cars stereotypically have the engine in the front. Obviously Ferraris and Porsches don't, but they're atypical and weird. They also have different layouts for a specific purpose, Porsches don't have rear mounted engines just for yucks. People stereotypically will judge you by how well you speak too. You could be a college graduate, but if you sound like Rocky Balboa when you talk you're going to come across poorly because people will assume you're uneducated. This is social shorthand, we can't stop and process every single thing that comes our way, so we compartmentalize it until proven otherwise. This means that if you're a dude and you wear a dress in public, you're going to be put in everyone's "desperate for attention and weird" box until they're somehow forced into a conversation with you, because otherwise they'll likely avoid you or passively taunt you in an attempt to bring attention to the fact that you're a walking contradiction.
> 
> Strangely enough one of the first people I saw on campus today was a dude wearing a brightly colored dress. I think it was a dude anyway, his legs were shaved. Anyway I really didn't think anything of it. Then again he was Asian so that pretty much explained everything.



Stereotypes are subjective and usually negative, it's been considered of the "I'm this, you're that" psychology, to pick and choose what is not like for a personal sense of preference. That might not seem negative to the chooser, but it can seem unfair to those who are seen negatively. In terms of culture, segregation has always been a means of control, if people really felt they weren't forced in choice culturally, I'd be willing to bet there'd be far weirder, unique fashions out there. Stereotypes allows things like sexism, racism, speciesism and sexualism. "but they're atypical and weird" this is your opinion, though, and its been pushed on you by stereotypes - why is it weird? You'd have thought an engine at the back was more safe in terms of the fact, if you head-on crash into something, it'd be less likely result in explosive sandwich. Efficiency doesn't make something bad or good, either, sometimes a lack of efficiency is there so one can enjoy doing things manually, if everything were too easy the need for work would be pointless. We all do have stereotypes, however, and as members of society for our own sake of harmony you have to give a certain amount of live and let live and do what you do for as long as you're permitted, haters can go hate as much as they like.

"but if you sound like Rocky Balboa when you talk you're going to come across poorly because people will assume you're uneducated"
There you just demonstrated how negative stereotypes are on the receiving end of the unexpected.

It's like art, especially music, I don't listen to "genres", I listen to "music". Stereotypes are just the shortcut to selfish pleasure, this isn't bad to yourself as it allows you to distinguish what you like so you get a better sense of experience, but as I said before, it's gonna make some people feel negativity, especially if you preach your own imagined superiority to them. When this imagined superiority is collected is more than one person against another party this is when the stereotypes become seemingly offensive to those they are aimed at (and if that's a minority, that is a form of bullying).


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

> "but they're atypical and weird" this is your opinion, though, and its been pushed on you by stereotypes - why is it weird?



Cause it's rare and contradictory. Were it just rare it would be unique, were it just contradictory it would be a statement, but because it's both it sends up an error message.



> You'd have thought an engine at the back was more safe in terms of the fact, if you head-on crash into something, it'd be less likely result in explosive sandwich.



Actually the engine at the front allows for more steel between you and whatever you hit, allowing firmer compression and better crumple-zones.



> Efficiency doesn't make something bad or good, either, sometimes a lack of efficiency is there so one can enjoy doing things manually, if everything were too easy the need for work would be pointless.



I can appreciate a car with a manual transmission. I cannot appreciate a car I have to push. There is a line.



> There you just demonstrated how negative stereotypes are on the receiving end of the unexpected.



The implication is that the person needs to clean their dialog up. "Yo I bet yous ain't gonna be talkin' shit when my main man comes up in dis bitch and starts layin' down his Keynesian theory," is unbecoming and difficult to understand. People would ignore him because he sounds like he's a moron and is halfway unintelligible.



> t's like art, especially music, I don't listen to "genres", I listen to "music".



Well aren't you just a progressive peach.


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## Kio Maru (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Cause it's rare and contradictory. Were it just rare it would be unique, were it just contradictory it would be a statement, but because it's both it sends up an error message.


So everything unique is a bad thing? What's the point of evolution / experimentation?



TeenageAngst said:


> Actually the engine at the front allows for more steel between you and whatever you hit, allowing firmer compression and better crumple-zones.


Yet there are pros and cons in both cases and it depends if it's a front or rear wheel drive, not to mention the technology involved, by physics as long as the weight is balanced at the front and the back there shouldn't be much difference.



TeenageAngst said:


> I can appreciate a car with a manual transmission. I cannot appreciate a car I have to push. There is a line.


It's a subjective preference, there are people who prefer older computers and the stereotypes are that they experience crashes all the time, yet the computer may be just enough for them and personally preferential without much issues, or if there are any issues, they don't care about it.



TeenageAngst said:


> The implication is that the person needs to clean their dialog up. "Yo I bet yous ain't gonna be talkin' shit when my main man comes up in dis bitch and starts layin' down his Keynesian theory," is unbecoming and difficult to understand. People would ignore him because he sounds like he's a moron and is halfway unintelligible.


And this stereotype isn't negative?



TeenageAngst said:


> Well aren't you just a progressive peach.



No, I just prefer music that sounds good to me rather than someone's interpretation of what they think I should like under some marketed label.
Some music I listen to comes under genre, but hell, genre sound tends to even more away from its original definition, look at dubstep, it hardly sounds like reggae dub or 2-step anymore, it's like someone crossed electro house, death metal, downtempo, progressive trance, hardcore techno and dutch house and decided to steal the hype of another genre's name by pushing out somewhat progressive sounds out to grab media attention. And I should regard art in general, it only makes sense to like a piece instead of an artist or genre, I go for the aesthetics I enjoy like characters with an alternative species, fantasy, sci-fi, etc, not some disjointed guy screaming at a beach, though that might appeal to someone else. Even furrydom has its stereotypes, such as the sexual aspects, fursuits, bestiality and the pseudo-therian stereotypes, these are used more negatively than positively.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 20, 2013)

> So everything unique is a bad thing? What's the point of evolution / experimentation?



I didn't say that, stop putting words in my mouth. I said things that are rare and contradictory register as errors. This that are just rare are unique. Finding $20 on the ground is rare, it's unique, and it's certainly not bad.



> And this stereotype isn't negative?



No, it's useful. If you can't be understood you need to clean your language up or else your message is being lost through poor communication. It's not the listener's job to decipher what you're saying into the King's English.



> No, I just prefer music that sounds good to me rather than someone's interpretation of what they think I should like under some marketed label.
> Some music I listen to comes under genre, but hell, genre sound tends to even more away from its original definition, look at dubstep, it hardly sounds like reggae dub or 2-step anymore, it's like someone crossed electro house, death metal, downtempo, progressive trance, hardcore techno and dutch house and decided to steal the hype of another genre's name by pushing out somewhat progressive sounds out to grab media attention. And I should regard art in general, it only makes sense to like a piece instead of an artist or genre, I go for the aesthetics I enjoy like characters with an alternative species, fantasy, sci-fi, etc, not some disjointed guy screaming at a beach, though that might appeal to someone else. Even furrydom has its stereotypes, such as the sexual aspects, fursuits, bestiality and the pseudo-therian stereotypes, these are used more negatively than positively.



"it only makes sense to like a piece instead of an artist or genre" What. This makes absolutely no goddamn sense at all. No one's telling you what to like (wish the same could be said for me). But not defining bands and genres means you're thinking your taste is some kinda special class-defying appreciation when in fact it's more "I just don't like shitty EDM." Just give us a few band names or genres so we can ballpark your tastes and get on with the conversation, no one asking your taste in music has time to listen to you prattle on for five minutes about the complexities of the individual pieces you enjoy. God, like I said, there's a reason these stereotypes exist.




> It's a subjective preference, there are people who prefer older computers and the stereotypes are that they experience crashes all the time, yet the computer may be just enough for them and personally preferential without much issues, or if there are any issues, they don't care about it.




They're what we call old people and generally speaking they're too afraid of new technology to realize hey, I don't need to run Office 97 anymore.


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## Troj (Mar 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Where the line is drawn is dependent on the individual, which is why it baffles me that, with the exception of flagrant discrimination (that is, actually breaching constitutional and civil rights), people are so quick to judge other people's judgments, if that makes sense?



Well, I'd say it's mainly because those people are afraid of how those individuals are going to act (whether consciously or subconsciously) on or because of their judgements. 

Plenty of social psych studies have shown that implicit or subconscious stereotypes, assumptions, and beliefs can be primed to the point of influencing choices, behaviors, and opinions in an observable (if sometimes subtle) way. People's stated opinions and values can even be influenced in the moment by such primes.



> People can think I'm an asshole, people can think you're a weirdo.



Problem is, those two things aren't necessarily seen as equal or equivalent. 

If you walk up to someone and tell them their clothing is weird and ugly, many (though not all) people will react badly to _you_, because you'll be seen as the _aggressor_ in that scenario. The weirdo's crime was passive; yours was active.



> No, it's useful. If you can't be understood you need to clean your  language up or else your message is being lost through poor  communication. It's not the listener's job to decipher what you're  saying into the King's English.



As an English snob, I actually sympathize with your point here. If you want people to understand you, you should make the effort to be understandable!

_Naturally_, there's also something to be said for setting aside your snap judgments so that you can get to know someone, because there are plenty of kind, talented, intelligent, ethical, wonderful folks whose particular dialect or patois may initially rub you the wrong way.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

> As an English snob, I actually sympathize with your point here. If you want people to understand you, you should make the effort to be understandable!
> 
> _Naturally, there's also something to be said for setting aside your snap judgments so that you can get to know someone, because there are plenty of kind, talented, intelligent, ethical, wonderful folks whose particular dialect or patois may initially rub you the wrong way._



Uh huh.



> Problem is, those two things aren't necessarily seen as equal or equivalent.
> 
> If you walk up to someone and tell them their clothing is weird and ugly, many (though not all) people will react badly to _you, because you'll be seen as the aggressor in that scenario. The weirdo's crime was passive; yours was active._



No one walks up to someone and does this when alcohol is not involved, unless the person craving attention is making a scene, in which case the person usually does it to put them in line.



> Well, I'd say it's mainly because those people are afraid of how those individuals are going to act (whether consciously or subconsciously) on or because of their judgements.
> 
> Plenty of social psych studies have shown that implicit or subconscious stereotypes, assumptions, and beliefs can be primed to the point of influencing choices, behaviors, and opinions in an observable (if sometimes subtle) way. People's stated opinions and values can even be influenced in the moment by such primes.



"Plenty of pseudoscience has said that people can subconsciously do stuff sometimes that agrees with our preconceived notions held before undergoing this study." Come back when you have mathematicians on the payroll.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 21, 2013)

As if anybody gives three tugs of a dead dog's dick about CE.


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## Troj (Mar 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> "Plenty of pseudoscience has said that people can subconsciously do stuff sometimes that agrees with our preconceived notions held before undergoing this study." Come back when you have mathematicians on the payroll.



This field is not my field, therefore it's TEH GAY!

Talk to me when mathematicians have access to fMRIs. Talk to me when mathematicians directly contribute to our understanding of mental illness or human motivation. Snark snark snark snark snark. :V

We did a variation on that already; don't need to do it again.

Suffice it to say, if the same specific, pre-defined choice, pattern or behavior occurs under a specific set of conditions in enough  cases in order to be considered significant, and above the level of chance, then, well, that suggests that more than just an illusory relationship exists between your stimulus and the subsequent response.

(Experimenter bias can indeed enter in if you're dealing with, for example, (especially moral or ethical) "rankings" or "ratings" of choices or actions, and I tend to consider those kinds of studies weaker for it.)

Long story short, that beliefs and values shape choices, stated opinions, and behaviors should hopefully not be a shocking or controversial statement.



> No one walks up to someone and does this when alcohol is not involved,  unless the person craving attention is making a scene, in which case the  person usually does it to put them in line.



You've said you're someone who's fine with telling people off when they have it coming, and that some folks might consider you an "asshole," and I'm not totally clear on the circumstances under which you do that sort of thing, or how you make that call. 

When in doubt, err on the side of caution and pessimism!

But, sorry if I've assumed or implied you do stuff that you don't _actually_ do in practice. Not cool on my part.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

Troj said:


> This field is not my field, therefore it's TEH GAY!
> 
> Talk to me when mathematicians have access to fMRIs. Talk to me when mathematicians directly contribute to our understanding of mental illness or human motivation. Snark snark snark snark snark. :V



You know the laws of physics that dictate how the MRI operates? We discovered those through physics with the help of mathematicians. How many laws of psychology do we have now? Where's the equivalent of the circular flow model, or the laws of thermodynamics, or the laws of electromagnetism in sociology and psychology? Oh wait, they don't have laws and theories.



> We did a variation on that already; don't need to do it again.



I certainly hope not, I made my point quite well in it.



> Now, you're absolutely right that you run into experimenter bias  when you're looking, for example, at ratings or rankings of beliefs or behaviors, for  example, because such judgments and measurements can be highly  subjective, especially if they're rooted in the experimenter's moral  judgments.



Especially if finding the wrong stuff leads to no more funding. On noes!



> But, if you're measuring the speed or frequency with  which people make a particular, observable choice, or perform a specific pre-defined action, that's arguably more difficult to screw up, unless  you're going to argue that experimenter bias distorts the experimenter's  perception of time and space! If the same pattern or behavior occurs in enough  cases in order to be considered significant, and above the level of chance, then, well, that suggests that more than just an illusory relationship exists between your stimulus and the subsequent response.



Anything's possible when you have people from the fluffy end of academia at the helm of the statistical math. To minitab and beyond!



> Both and all kinds of studies are done with enough frequency that it's not worth my time or energy to recount them all here, especially since your mind's made up on the matter.
> 
> So, suffice it to say, that beliefs and values shape choices, stated opinions, and behaviors should hopefully not be a shocking or controversial statement.



That's ridiculously simplistic and doesn't explain the results at all. How do you explain the people that didn't fall in line with the statistic, hmm? I guess they're just not on the part of the graph we care about. Laws and absolute certainty and isolating variables require actual work, and we have benefactors to impress.


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## Troj (Mar 21, 2013)

> Where's the equivalent of the circular flow model, or the laws of  thermodynamics, or the laws of electromagnetism in sociology and  psychology? Oh wait, they don't have laws and theories.



What would you call the schools of thought and practice within Psychology? What would you call the _theories_ of motivation? How would you classify the various findings of neuroscience, regarding the functions of the brain?

Granted, the theory of the motivation isn't the same animal as the theory of relativity, because the functional purpose and definition of a "theory" differs between the two fields. 

But, it's ridiculous and crazy to argue that a bird is an inferior type of creature because it doesn't possess tits, or claim that Chinese Food isn't really food because you can't order chimichangas at Chen's Wok. 

Psychology addresses different questions and fills a different niche from Physics, Chemistry, and the like, even as it is informed by other fields in various ways, and makes use of their methods and findings. 

If not for Psychology, you'd pretty much be left with Philosophy and Religion to explain human pathology, motivation, and behavior, and we all know how popular those fields are here! (Well, and you'd have Economics, too, but Econ's hit-or-miss when it comes to predicting the behavior of anyone who isn't a psychopath or an economist.)



> ow do you explain the people that didn't fall in line with the statistic, hmm?



You ask a new question, develop a new hypothesis, and try to suss out the hidden mediating or moderating personality, situational, experimental, genetic, or other variables which might help to explain why those individuals swam in a different direction than expected.

Because of natural human diversity, not everyone will respond to a given stimulus or situation in the exact same way. There will always be some subset of people for whom the usual rules do not apply, or for whom new sub-rules need to be created. 

You're expecting absolute certainty, when nobody in their right mind would dream of promising it. Even the hard sciences are satisfied with a reasonable level of certainty, at above the level of chance.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

> Psychology addresses different questions and fills a different niche from Physics, Chemistry, and the like, even as it is informed by other fields in various ways, and makes use of their methods and findings.



I'm gonna defer you to an expert on the subject who can sum this up more eloquently than I ever could. Drop a train on 'em, Feynman.



> If not for Psychology, you'd pretty much be left with Philosophy and Religion to explain human pathology, motivation, and behavior, and we all know how popular those fields are here! (Well, and you'd have Economics, too, but Econ's hit-or-miss when it comes to predicting the behavior of anyone who isn't a psychopath or an economist.)



For what it's worth economists generally know what's going to happen in the economy. This is demonstrable by the fact that we've been running the Federal Reserve since the 1950s with minimal hiccups coming from fiscal policy. The problem 99.9% of the time is politicians never fucking listen to what the economists say.



> You're expecting absolute certainty, when nobody in their right mind would dream of promising it. Even the hard sciences are satisfied with a reasonable level of certainty, at above the level of chance.



Hard sciences are satisfied with extreme levels of accuracy, hard mathematical proof, and consistent replication of experiments. The social sciences have carved out this self-important niche in the scientific schools of thought where they're immune to scrutiny simply because of shit like "natural diversity" and "unknown variables." This is why people think string theory is a load of hogwash right now, and that's already been mathematically proven! Geez, at least economics is a universal theory.


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## MicheleFancy (Mar 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm gonna defer you to an expert on the subject who can sum this up more eloquently than I ever could. Drop a train on 'em, Feynman.



I'm just going to jump in at this part, as I have nothing to contribute to the rest, but I believe Feynman here was referring to psychoanalysis, like what Freud practiced, which is not the same thing as psychology and has been, from what I recall, losing a lot of steam and popularity.  Plus, he had this interview in the 80s and a lot has changed in the field since then, being over 30 years later.  I'd like to hear what he has to say now (if he's still around, I don't know.)  I'd also like to point out the fact he said that he could be wrong on the subject and did not give his opinion as an absolute, which suggested it could be changed in the future.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

Feynmen was referring to the fact that a scientist will spend months working on a mathematical proof that is absolutely and demonstrably true beyond a shadow of a doubt, or a physicist will spend years cataloging and working out the math behind phenomenon to come to a universal law of measurement, where as a psychologist will set a 95% CI, take a sample size of whatever's handy, "randomize" it, and test for normalcy while removing as many external factors as they frankly care to.


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## MicheleFancy (Mar 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Feynmen was referring to the fact that a scientist will spend months working on a mathematical proof that is absolutely and demonstrably true beyond a shadow of a doubt, or a physicist will spend years cataloging and working out the math behind phenomenon to come to a universal law of measurement, where as a psychologist will set a 95% CI, take a sample size of whatever's handy, "randomize" it, and test for normalcy while removing as many external factors as they frankly care to.



Again, he was talking over 30 years ago on the subject.  I don't think it's fair to say that psychology is the same as it was back then, nor that psychologists don't take their work seriously and not spend months or years on what they're studying.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

Judging by the fact that they have since over-prescribed and over-diagnosed just about every single kid that's waltzed through their office doors with a complaining mother in tow, my money's on Feynman.


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## Rilvor (Mar 21, 2013)

Oh, you poor man of straw

How they abuse you so

Come, to me you withdraw

How I will deftly sew

So that you might reach with ragged claw

And perform another show


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

Hey, even Troj admitted that damn near all the studies done are performed with great limitations. Psychological and sociological "science" is correlation science at its worst.


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## Lucy Bones (Mar 21, 2013)

All of what we consider to be "normal" is but a human construct, anyway.


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## Troj (Mar 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I'm gonna defer you to an expert on the subject who can sum this up more eloquently than I ever could. Drop a train on 'em, Feynman.



Same problem as before. "Birds don't have tits! You need tits!"

He's also confusing or conflating the actual Social Sciences with I don't know who, because the bit about the food (?) has absolutely nothing to do with what I or any of my colleagues do.



> For what it's worth economists generally know what's going to happen in the economy.



Yep, but I was alluding more to Game Theory, and in particular, joking about the Prisoner's Dilemma. (Even though both are used and referenced by more than just economists, of course.)



> The social sciences have carved out this self-important niche in the scientific schools of thought where they're immune to scrutiny simply because of shit like "natural diversity" and "unknown variables."



They're not immune to scrutiny. They receive ample scrutiny, when due diligence is being done.

The first draft of my dissertation was methodologically and statistically inconsistent and unsound, and it was rejected for that reason. I didn't get away with being fluffy and vague. As a personality type, I'm a jazz musician, basically, and my program's dinged me several times for that tendency.

But, the reality is that whole human beings do not behave like subatomic particles or disc gallaxies, so you have to employ different rubrics, different standards, different tools, and a different margin of error when studying them.

When BF Skinner attempted to make Psychology a "pure science," lots of folks cried foul, because his model leaves out the rich, subjective inner world that's more difficult to quantify, but which most of us know is absolutely critical to understanding us as a species.

You nitpick about the methodological limitations that most researchers are well aware of, and strive to account for, but you fail to acknowledge the critical contributions that have been made, thanks to Psychology, to our understanding of motivation, appraisal, learning, the brain, development over the lifespan, mental illness, criminality, and more, and how this understanding, and its proper application, has noticeably raised our (as a society) general level of understanding and quality of life.

When you _accurately_ apply many of these principles, practices, and findings to real-world situations, you _get results. _This is not eeny-meeny-miney-mo.

You don't seem to be aware of manualized Evidence Based Treatments, and  how far removed they are from, for example, psychoanalysis as done by  Freud.

Well, and as I'm mulling over _my_ personal all-time favorite studies, I reckon you can raise methodological or statistical beefs about Zimbardo Stanford Prison Study until next Tuesday, but you'd still be hard-pressed to argue that the study itself didn't reveal something critical about human nature and human behavior, which we have since successfully and effectively applied to other events and situations. That's but one example, of course, but it's one of my favorites.

And, you have a beef with psychopharmacology, which I've acknowledged and sympathized with, but folks in my particular field can only prescribe meds in two states. That one, you have to take up with the Psychiatrists.


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## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

> They're not immune to scrutiny. They receive ample scrutiny, when due diligence is being done.




As if they knew the meaning of the word.




> The first draft of my dissertation was methodologically and statistically inconsistent and unsound, and it was rejected for that reason. I didn't get away with being fluffy and vague. As a personality type, I'm a jazz musician, basically, and my program's dinged me several times for that tendency.





> But, the reality is that whole human beings do not behave like subatomic particles or disc gallaxies, so you have to employ different rubrics, different standards, different tools, and a different margin of error when studying them.




Bullshit. Biologists are able to analyze animal species to an extreme precision in some instances. Hell, they even developed mathematical formulas to accurately predict the rate of change in a given population over time. How are humans so different?




> When BF Skinner attempted to make Psychology a "pure science," lots of folks cried foul, because his model leaves out the rich, subjective inner world that's more difficult to quantify, but which most of us know is absolutely critical to understanding us as a species.



Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so. If it's difficult to quantify don't pass it off as impossible to understand, refine your metrics.




> You nitpick about the methodological limitations that most researchers are well aware of, and strive to account for, but you fail to acknowledge the critical contributions that have been made, thanks to Psychology, to our understanding of motivation, appraisal, learning, the brain, development over the lifespan, mental illness, criminality, and more, and how this understanding, and its proper application, has noticeably raised our (as a society) general level of understanding and quality of life.



I see my quality of life being raised by physicists, chemists, biologists, medical practitioners, engineers, electricians, plumbers, farmers, but in no way shape or form can I identify a significant contribution by anyone from the psychological or sociological practices without also seeing the massive void in its research and jumped-to conclusions it keeps churning out, most of which are held up as *facts*.




> When you





> _accurately apply many of these principles, practices, and findings to real-world situations, you get results. This is not eeny-meeny-miney-mo.
> 
> You don't seem to be aware of manualized Evidence Based Treatments, and how far removed they are from, for example, psychoanalysis as done by Freud._


_

_I'm well aware, however I'm also well aware of the severe limitations of statistical analysis._



			Well, and as I'm mulling over my personal all-time favorite studies, I reckon you can raise methodological or statistical beefs about Zimbardo Stanford Prison Study until next Tuesday, but you'd still be hard-pressed to argue that the study itself didn't reveal something critical about human nature and human behavior, which we have since successfully and effectively applied to other events and situations. That's but one example, of course, but it's one of my favorites.

And, you have a beef with psychopharmacology, which I've acknowledged and sympathized with, but folks in my particular field can only prescribe meds in two states. That one, you have to take up with the Psychiatrists.
		
Click to expand...

_
It sure as hell revealed something, what that something was we may never know since we'll never get to repeat it and it was terribly constructed for data gathering. A similar experiment would be hitting someone with a Mack truck and inspecting the damage. As for psychological drug industry, one could think of that as the culmination of psychiatry's social experimentation efforts. Psychologists don't get off the hook though, propagating their poorly backed and ridiculous conclusions like social scripture. I sincerely hope one day someone does clean up the social sciences as right now they're about as detrimental as their budgets and personal convictions allow.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> A white person is someone who's life is so middle-class, so uninteresting, so free of serious financial, social, and life issues and previous personal trauma that they have time to sit back and reflect on themselves to the point of self-actualization. The irony is that, because they've experienced almost no legitimate struggles, they can't personally relate to people who have, and thus the veiwpoints of less actualized people are considered juvenile, cynical, old-fashioned, or just plain awful. Their own viewpoints in turn are considered irrational, naive, or too optimistic. The problems they do have tend to magnify themselves, so a white person who's picked on for wearing lady clothes will view it as earth-shattering a problem as someone from a lower-income family dealing with the transmission on their only car giving out when they need it to get to work. The poor person will view the lady-clothes issue as straightforward and silly. If you break social cues you get picked on for being too incompetent to pick up on the social cues, so just don't wear the lady clothes. Likewise, the white person simply can't imagine what the car scenario is like beyond the superficial and feels no guilt about complaining about their own problems, because they can carry the label of "discrimination" and are thus automatically important for some reason.
> 
> Basically white people don't have real problems so they make shit up to draw attention to themselves to be offended about, and poor people ain't got time for their bullshit.


 I am white and full of financial problems, and the car problems you speak of lmfao. In some ways, kind of glad I'm not one of those middle-class typical white people you speak of. Also, you are kind of right about how they find problems. Is that why rich people are sometimes more suicidal than people with a lower income? I mean jesus christ, I can't even afford a new computer if mine breaks, I never even had my own private bedroom! I notice the people who are flamboyant get moody at you too. They always act like they are "all that", like the cameras are focused on them. Like "bitch, look at me! I'm fabulous! and if you don't agree, you can go fuck yourself, because I am important!"


----------



## MicheleFancy (Mar 21, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I notice the people who are flamboyant get moody at you too. They always act like they are "all that", like the cameras are focused on them. Like "bitch, look at me! I'm fabulous! and if you don't agree, you can go fuck yourself, because I am important!"



You know this behavior isn't just found in "flamboyant" gay men, right?

It's called being a self-entitled asshole.
A lot of people are doing it these days as it is very fashionable. :V


----------



## ursiphiliac (Mar 21, 2013)

To TheMetalVelocity's credit, he said "people who are flamboyant," not "gay men who are flamboyant."


----------



## Azure (Mar 21, 2013)

sippin some haterade up in this thread, all ya'll


----------



## MicheleFancy (Mar 21, 2013)

ursiphiliac said:


> To TheMetalVelocity's credit, he said "people who are flamboyant," not "gay men who are flamboyant."



I'm just going by the context of the conversation from the beginning, which had to do with flamboyant gay men and not just flamboyant people in general, as well as the post they were responding to which I think falls into a similar category.
If they meant just flamboyant people, I say my statement still stands, just take out the gay part.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 21, 2013)

MicheleFancy said:


> I'm just going by the context of the conversation from the beginning, which had to do with flamboyant gay men and not just flamboyant people in general, as well as the post they were responding to which I think falls into a similar category.
> If they meant just flamboyant people, I say my statement still stands, just take out the gay part.


 It includes gays, everyone, who likes to throw it in your face.


----------



## Azure (Mar 21, 2013)

throw what in your face? what specifically do you dislike? is it actually happening to you?


----------



## Lucy Bones (Mar 21, 2013)

There is a line between being flamboyant and being an annoying cunt.


----------



## ursiphiliac (Mar 21, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> There is a line between being flamboyant and being an annoying cunt.


Yeah, flamboyance by itself can just be exuberance, extravagance, boldness. Coupled with self-righteousness and impudence, however, it's really a different thing.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 21, 2013)

Azure said:


> throw what in your face? what specifically do you dislike? is it actually happening to you?


 I was talking about the femmies LOL and how they just gotta show it off and be like "bitch, i'm fabulous"


----------



## benignBiotic (Mar 21, 2013)

So might this thread have been named: "Feeling annoyed by loud, obnoxious people?"



> sippin some haterade up in this thread, all ya'll


If I could "This" this, I would.


----------



## Kio Maru (Mar 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I didn't say that, stop putting words in my mouth. I said things that are rare and contradictory register as errors. This that are just rare are unique. Finding $20 on the ground is rare, it's unique, and it's certainly not bad.



You implied that stereotypes were a good thing and then you used an example to devaluate this.
Chance is not related to stereotypes in this sense, if someone often finds 20$ on the ground, it is not rare to them.



TeenageAngst said:


> No, it's useful. If you can't be understood you need to clean your language up or else your message is being lost through poor communication. It's not the listener's job to decipher what you're saying into the King's English.



>King's English
I'm the English one here, in traditional English there are two ways of communication, one is prose and one is poetic, prose can be broken or formal; poetry can be non rhyme-oriented or rhyme-oriented.



TeenageAngst said:


> "it only makes sense to like a piece instead of an artist or genre" What. This makes absolutely no goddamn sense at all. No one's telling you what to like (wish the same could be said for me). But not defining bands and genres means you're thinking your taste is some kinda special class-defying appreciation when in fact it's more "I just don't like shitty EDM." Just give us a few band names or genres so we can ballpark your tastes and get on with the conversation, no one asking your taste in music has time to listen to you prattle on for five minutes about the complexities of the individual pieces you enjoy. God, like I said, there's a reason these stereotypes exist.



It's impossible to like everything under a category such as a genre completely, genre describes something I may or might not like, it's why people have favorite songs, most people will remark they like a particular song (or pop artist because the association is usually related to the singles and in that low count it's quite possible to like those). Again you are demonstrating stereotypes are usually negative. "you're thinking your taste is some kinda special class-defying appreciation" no I am simply stating I am an individual with my own personal tastes. "no one asking your taste in music has time to listen to you prattle on for five minutes about the complexities of the individual pieces you enjoy", actually considering modern interests, this is why sites like last fm exist, and that's so you can give a brief of what music you listen to and like. If you cannot communicate this, you just don't or you just have to resolve to stereotypes, but that doesn't make the stereotypes good.




TeenageAngst said:


> They're what we call old people and generally speaking they're too afraid of new technology to realize hey, I don't need to run Office 97 anymore.


Now that's a stereotype, there are plenty who use old computers that aren't specifically towards the stereotypical geriatric end of old. This shows stereotypes determines ignorance.


----------



## Hewge (Mar 21, 2013)

Should have known this thread would have escalated into something like this. xP


----------



## TeenageAngst (Mar 21, 2013)

From now on every post I make in this topic is going to involve a negative stereotype just to fuck with sword-owners like Kio.


----------



## Azure (Mar 21, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I was talking about the femmies LOL and how they just gotta show it off and be like "bitch, i'm fabulous"


i need some fabulous femboys to throw it in my face :c


----------



## Lucy Bones (Mar 21, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I was talking about the femmies LOL and how they just gotta show it off and be like "bitch, i'm fabulous"


You're just jealous cuz' they're more fab than you.

Faaaaaaag


----------



## Troj (Mar 22, 2013)

Azure said:


> throw what in your face? what specifically do you dislike? is it actually happening to you?



Excellent questions.

It seems like a chunk of Metal Velocity's irritation or frustration here stems from the fact that he interprets flamboyance as a _deliberate_ attempt to throw something in his face. 'Zat fair, Velocity?

Next question from there is, why is it bad or irritating that a person is throwing something in your face?

 Do you resent anything being thrown in your face like that, period, or is it the specific *thing* being thrown in your face that is the main problem? Or is it a mix of both?

If you picture a situation in which the person is _not_ intending or meaning to throw something in _your_ face, does your reaction to them change?


----------



## TeenageAngst (Mar 22, 2013)

> Next question from there is, why is it bad or irritating that a person is throwing something in your face?



Let's do a social experiment and find out.

Troj, do you have a moment to listen to the good news?


----------



## Lucy Bones (Mar 22, 2013)

If you don't want someone getting all up in your face, pulling your pants down and helicopter your dick.

Works every time.


----------



## Troj (Mar 22, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Let's do a social experiment and find out.
> 
> Troj, do you have a moment to listen to the good news?



Depends on what we're throwing, and who we're throwing it at .

If you want to throw naked Adrien Brody at me, that's cool.

O' course, here, by "something," I mean the flamboyant flaunty-flaunty je-nais-se-quois that femboys do. I usually find it quaint, amusing, and charming, myself, but I've got my own pet peeves.


----------



## -={Dracimonde}=- (Mar 22, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> If you don't want someone getting all up in your face, pulling your pants down and helicopter your dick.
> 
> Works every time.



Oh ya, that'll get their attention alright


----------



## TeenageAngst (Mar 22, 2013)

Troj said:


> Depends on what we're throwing, and who we're throwing it at .
> 
> If you want to throw naked Adrien Brody at me, that's cool.
> 
> O' course, here, by "something," I mean the flamboyant flaunty-flaunty je-nais-se-quois that femboys do. I usually find it quaint, amusing, and charming, myself, but I've got my own pet peeves.



I was talking about the good news that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior who died for our sins has risen!


----------



## Azure (Mar 22, 2013)

Ahkmill said:


> If you don't want someone getting all up in your face, pulling your pants down and helicopter your dick.
> 
> Works every time.


well, thats how it works in the military. and the county jail. at least in my experience.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 23, 2013)

Azure said:


> well, thats how it works in the military. and the county jail. at least in my experience.


 Now that was funny.


----------



## Troj (Mar 23, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I was talking about the good news that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior who died for our sins has risen!



Oh, right, that. :V

Can we all agree that femboys are preferable to evangelists?


----------



## Fallowfox (Mar 23, 2013)

Troj said:


> Oh, right, that. :V
> 
> Can we all agree that femboys are preferable to evangelists?




Hell, the objects of Femboys' adoration clearly exist, so of course.


----------



## -={Dracimonde}=- (Mar 23, 2013)

Troj said:


> Oh, right, that. :V
> 
> Can we all agree that femboys are preferable to evangelists?



Most Definitely :3


----------



## Ricky (Mar 23, 2013)

Yeah. Except for Crusader Cat because he's awesome ^_^


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## Azure (Mar 23, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Yeah. Except for Crusader Cat because he's awesome ^_^


that shalt not yiff your cat


----------



## Faolan (Mar 23, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Yeah. Except for Crusader Cat because he's awesome ^_^





Azure said:


> that shalt not yiff your cat



http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2...cat_vs_yarn_ball_3_by_crusadercat-d302g7c.jpg

But it's just so cute I can't resist :V


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 23, 2013)

Troj said:


> Oh, right, that. :V
> 
> Can we all agree that femboys are preferable to evangelists?


 ugh, they're both annoying, Except, evangelists are not as embarrassing as femboys, they are just dumb.


----------



## Golden (Mar 24, 2013)

Troj said:


> Oh, right, that. :V  Can we all agree that femboys are preferable to evangelists?


  I think evangelsit is a pretty cool guy. eh teaches jesus and doesn't afraid of anything.


----------



## Ricky (Mar 24, 2013)

Faolan said:


> http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2...cat_vs_yarn_ball_3_by_crusadercat-d302g7c.jpg
> 
> But it's just so cute I can't resist :V



... he is ;3


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## DarrylWolf (Mar 24, 2013)

"Tolerance" is a perfect word to describe how we treat most people- like a headcold, we just hope you go away soon.


----------



## TeenageAngst (Mar 24, 2013)

Troj said:


> Oh, right, that. :V
> 
> Can we all agree that femboys are preferable to evangelists?



I can't tell if getting in your face with this annoys your Troj, but I wanted you to know that you should let Jesus into your heart or else face the fires of hell like the bible tells us.


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## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 24, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> "Tolerance" is a perfect word to describe how we treat most people- like a headcold, we just hope you go away soon.


 What are you implying?


----------



## DrDingo (Mar 24, 2013)

I once went through a completely opposite phase- I'm a very accepting person, but once I was too adamant about accepting everyone and I became overly ruthless about rights and equality. Just trying to 'tolerate' something isn't the right way to go. The best thing to do is be as laid back as you can and not mind what others are doing.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Mar 24, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> What are you implying?



I'm implying that "tolerance" isn't really "love" at all because when you tolerate something it only means you're just putting up with it, rather than actually embracing it. I tolerate eating vegetables and exercise for the sake of losing weight. So whenever somebody screams about tolerating other people, then you can bring up the metaphor of discomfort who only tolerate physical pain and bland foof for a higher purpose.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Mar 24, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> I'm implying that "tolerance" isn't really "love" at all because when you tolerate something it only means you're just putting up with it, rather than actually embracing it. I tolerate eating vegetables and exercise for the sake of losing weight. So whenever somebody screams about tolerating other people, then you can bring up the metaphor of discomfort who only tolerate physical pain and bland foof for a higher purpose.


 So what your saying is basically I should embrace things that make me feel uncomfortable? I wouldn't do the same to other people. I never force people to accept me for any reason, in fact, one thing I learned in life, is that I cannot force people to like me, hang out, or be associated with me, and I respect them for that, Why? because I know it never works that way. People have their own mind that I could never change. I wouldn't want the same thing being done to me, which is probably why I respect them. I know they are not worth my time, and I know I am not worth other people's time either(the people I don't like, feel comfortable around, or just don't click with), which is why I tolerate them. 

I used to wonder why I was always the one left out and people didn't want to associate themselves with me. I realized that I made them feel uncomfortable, even though I was only being myself. Just my weird fetishes freak people out, which I have done on the forum. I don't expect people to accept me for them, and I respect them for that, and I wouldn't want the same thing being done to me. I do not think they are bad people, nor do i think I am a horrible person for the things I don't accept. I do like to better myself, but some things take time or just can't happen at all. I notice a lot of people who want to be accepted, don't accept the opinions of others, or just others in general and not let them think it through or let them be.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Mar 24, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> So what your saying is basically I should embrace things that make me feel uncomfortable? I wouldn't do the same to other people. I never force people to accept me for any reason, in fact, one thing I learned in life, is that I cannot force people to like me, hang out, or be associated with me, and I respect them for that, Why? because I know it never works that way. People have their own mind that I could never change. I wouldn't want the same thing being done to me, which is probably why I respect them. I know they are not worth my time, and I know I am not worth other people's time either(the people I don't like, feel comfortable around, or just don't click with), which is why I tolerate them.
> 
> I used to wonder why I was always the one left out and people didn't want to associate themselves with me. I realized that I made them feel uncomfortable, even though I was only being myself. Just my weird fetishes freak people out, which I have done on the forum. I don't expect people to accept me for them, and I respect them for that, and I wouldn't want the same thing being done to me. I do not think they are bad people, nor do i think I am a horrible person for the things I don't accept. I do like to better myself, but some things take time or just can't happen at all. I notice a lot of people who want to be accepted, don't accept the opinions of others, or just others in general and not let them think it through or let them be.



I guess we may not be as different as we think we are. I often find myself using the same rhetoric that transgendered people do when I confronted with the fact that I have a taste in music and an interest in a history and a culture not my own. If there was such a thing as a "melanin pill" I'd take it, so I could get into places like Beamer's (a Black nightclub in Dallas) and not get looked at funny. It was being told in high school that there are certain songs I could not sing that only made me want to sing them even more.

But once I get this fursuit made, then I can start doing things I never could- recite Dubois, Garvey, and Baraka, wear batik shirts, and finally be able to sing along to songs like this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwQZwXAIT38

I'd have to be careful when and where I wear it but it would be my dream to actually transcend the ethnic barrier.


----------



## TheGr8MC (Mar 26, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I used to wonder why I was always the one left out and people didn't want to associate themselves with me. I realized that I made them feel uncomfortable, even though I was only being myself.



You've said my feelings exactly.  I am extremely socially awkward and inept.  I understand very little about how social relationships and people work when around "normal" people.  I always live by the words "be yourself" and I do even though others don't like it which always left me wondering what I did wrong.  It's pretty hard being taught to be yourself and then get ridiculed for doing so.  Thankfully I have you guys who are all weirdo's like me so I never have any socially awkward problems with you guys.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 26, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> I guess we may not be as different as we think we are. I often find myself using the same rhetoric that transgendered people do when I confronted with the fact that I have a taste in music and an interest in a history and a culture not my own. If there was such a thing as a "melanin pill" I'd take it, so I could get into places like Beamer's (a Black nightclub in Dallas) and not get looked at funny. It was being told in high school that there are certain songs I could not sing that only made me want to sing them even more.
> 
> But once I get this fursuit made, then I can start doing things I never could- recite Dubois, Garvey, and Baraka, wear batik shirts, and finally be able to sing along to songs like this.
> 
> ...


So... You're a fursuiting wigger? XD


----------



## Ricky (Mar 26, 2013)

I think the term is _brotherkin_ :lol:


----------



## Ozriel (Mar 26, 2013)

Ricky said:


> I think the term is _brotherkin_ :lol:



That's not it...but I can't say it.... :/

And it starts with an "n". :V




DarrylWolf said:


> I guess we may not be as different as we think we are. I often find myself using the same rhetoric that transgendered people do when I confronted with the fact that I have a taste in music and an interest in a history and a culture not my own. If there was such a thing as a "melanin pill" I'd take it, so I could get into places like Beamer's (a Black nightclub in Dallas) and not get looked at funny. It was being told in high school that there are certain songs I could not sing that only made me want to sing them even more.
> 
> But once I get this fursuit made, then I can start doing things I never could- recite Dubois, Garvey, and Baraka, wear batik shirts, and finally be able to sing along to songs like this.
> 
> ...




Wolfbone is that you?


----------



## Azure (Mar 26, 2013)

Ricky said:


> I think the term is _brotherkin_ :lol:


like this?



Ozriel said:


> That's not it...but I can't say it.... :/
> 
> And it starts with an "n". :V


nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ah i cant say it :c
caught you looking for an invisible version of ******, didnt i?



Ozriel said:


> Wolfbone is that you?


truths of existence up in this bitch


----------



## Batty Krueger (Mar 27, 2013)

Ozriel said:


> That's not it...but I can't say it.... :/
> 
> And it starts with an "n". :V
> 
> ...


Holy shit I hope not


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Apr 1, 2013)

TheGr8MC said:


> You've said my feelings exactly.  I am extremely socially awkward and inept.  I understand very little about how social relationships and people work when around "normal" people.  I always live by the words "be yourself" and I do even though others don't like it which always left me wondering what I did wrong.  It's pretty hard being taught to be yourself and then get ridiculed for doing so.  Thankfully I have you guys who are all weirdo's like me so I never have any socially awkward problems with you guys.


 People tell me I have assburglars syndrome including therapists, but I think it's overrated LOL. If you say you have it, people would just be like "ugh! another person saying he has the condition", which is kind of true. I think people use it way too much, even if it is true about it causing them social problems. It's not like anyone else is perfect around you anyway or that you're a bad person. They make you feel that way. I don't think of the people that I am uncomfortable about are bad people, just an awkward and insecure feeling.


----------



## Troj (Apr 1, 2013)

If you have Aspergers, or something else which affects your ability to read and appropriately act on social cues, you probably need to accept that you'll probably never be James Bond--at least, not without _a lot_ of work--and that you'll still make mistakes or social gaffes. But, mind you, recognizing this fact is very different from just resigning yourself to being a boorish, insufferable pain in the ass-burger who blithely lets it all hang out.

A diagnosis is an explanation, not an excuse. Diagnoses becoming excuses is why I hate it when anyone refers to alcoholism or substance abuse as a "disease." 

To make matters worse, we have non-Aspergian, just-socially-inept geeks now jumping on the Aspergers Bus, and using the diagnosis as a magical Get-Out-Of-All-Accountability Card. Ugh.

This has only lead some people to conclude that Aspergers is a) a fake diagnosis, which it is certainly not, or b) a form of sociopathy or narcissism, which it certainly is not. Double ugh.

Anyway, MetalVelocity, you are absolutely right that awkward people are often not "bad," but just insecure or socially clumsy. There are creepers who are also socially clumsy, but not all socially clumsy folks are creepers. You have to be cautious and aware, of course, but you should also be patient and compassionate, and give good-hearted weirdos a chance to prove themselves.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (Apr 1, 2013)

Troj said:


> If you have Aspergers, or something else which affects your ability to read and appropriately act on social cues, you probably need to accept that you'll probably never be James Bond--at least, not without _a lot_ of work--and that you'll still make mistakes or social gaffes. But, mind you, recognizing this fact is very different from just resigning yourself to being a boorish, insufferable pain in the ass-burger who blithely lets it all hang out.
> 
> A diagnosis is an explanation, not an excuse. Diagnoses becoming excuses is why I hate it when anyone refers to alcoholism or substance abuse as a "disease."
> 
> ...


 I have almost every symptom of Asperger's, but I try to be just a normal person. To me, even though no one is really normal, because I guess normal is kind of opinionated, I can definitely see a norm in most people and there way of socializing in conversations, behavior, emotions etc....  I know that for a fact.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

This is kind of what I mean when it gets to me and creeps me out:


http://kaw.stb.s-msn.com/i/B5/D837684F9611E37B4097FB292D3046.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xM8SqJEYToQ/TxS9IILuMRI/AAAAAAAAAvg/2IYg7GRossc/s1600/gay.jpg

http://blogs.ajc.com/the-buzz/files/2012/01/dwight_eubanks-300x200.jpg

http://truebloodfansource.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/true-blood-lafayette.jpg

http://www.city-data.com/forum/atta...-cross-dressing-my-rant-question-p1030519.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZXrTvfP6GJU/TCOWQFYGVgI/AAAAAAAACok/ivtWwjyDBZw/s1600/stereotypes1.jpg

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/53518477/Chris+Crocker+1213149241_8201_full.png


I am sorry, I can't help it.


----------



## benignBiotic (May 27, 2013)

^ Thanks for the update. I've been on the edge of my seat waiting to hear more about your homophobia.


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2013)

A guy wearing a nice pink suit gets to you? Really? I mean, pink is a really shitty color but people CAN pull it together quite well. Fuck is wrong with you?

Also there is literally nothing wrong with link #5 or #7.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

Aleu said:


> A guy wearing a nice pink suit gets to you? Really? I mean, pink is a really shitty color but people CAN pull it together quite well. Fuck is wrong with you?


 I felt that was a bad example. The other pictures though.


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I felt that was a bad example. The other pictures though.


Are also just as bad of examples.

How about...stop making excuses and just admit you're a bad person?


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Are also just as bad of examples.
> 
> How about...stop making excuses and just admit you're a bad person?


 Fine. I am a horrible person. It probably makes everyone happy that I said that. I was just trying to be honest with those pictures and giving people examples what I mean instead of holding shit back and living my life a lie.


----------



## Judge Spear (May 27, 2013)

benignBiotic said:


> ^ Thanks for the update. I've been on the edge of my seat waiting to hear more about your homophobia.



I paid in advance and I'm disappointed in this game. :I


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Fine. I am a horrible person. It probably makes everyone happy that I said that. I was just trying to be honest with those pictures and giving people examples what I mean instead of holding shit back and living my life a lie.


Spewing your bigotry under the guise of "honesty" is bullshit. Especially if you have to dig up a month old thread for it.


----------



## Judge Spear (May 27, 2013)

Not to mention you take it to other threads as well. You know what I'm talking about. I know I'm kind of the Gem Knight Pearl of the forums and stick up for a lot people when they're being attacked, but how can one defend a person that outright admits being against:
Homosexuality
Equality
REAL feminism

Oh right...you can't.


----------



## Kalmor (May 27, 2013)

TMV, under your FA main page's "hates" section you have.

- False assumptions....

Well that's a little hypocritical.

(funnily enough "hypocrites" are on that list too)


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2013)

>FloridaFurs

OF COURSE


----------



## benignBiotic (May 27, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Spewing your bigotry under the guise of "honesty" is bullshit. Especially if you have to dig up a month old thread for it.


Not only that but saying one has a problem and doing something about said problem are entirely different things. Back when this thread exploded TMV was pretty clearly not interested in doing anything about his bigot attitude. Or any of the issues he openly claims to have. 

What even is your game TMV?


----------



## Inciatus (May 27, 2013)

Aleu said:


> >FloridaFurs
> 
> OF COURSE


Yay Florida and our sillyness. 

Also I find this very entertaining and maybe mildly relevant. ''TheMetalVelocity has not made any friends yet''


----------



## Judge Spear (May 27, 2013)

Aleu said:


> >FloridaFurs
> 
> OF COURSE



Educate me.


----------



## TeenageAngst (May 27, 2013)

What was this thread about again? I don't feel like going through 9 pages but I remember I posted in it at some point.


----------



## Machine (May 27, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> What was this thread about again? I don't feel like going through 9 pages but I remember I posted in it at some point.


TMV cries over his bigotry and fear of men in pink clothing.


----------



## TeenageAngst (May 27, 2013)

Oh yeah, right.

Flamboyant homosexuals are like mall goths lol.


----------



## Ranguvar (May 27, 2013)

Machine said:


> fear of men in pink clothing.


I can understand his fear, I got jumped by a group of men in pink clothing last week. It was really fucking gay.


----------



## Machine (May 27, 2013)

Green_Knight said:


> I can understand his fear, I got jumped by a group of men in pink clothing last week. It was really fucking gay.


So now you have a phobia of men in pink clothes. :V


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

Machine said:


> TMV cries over his bigotry and fear of men in pink clothing.


 It's not simply that. My brother wears pink shirts. I don't think I was exactly spreading my bigotry as people say I was. I just hate hiding stuff about me. I want to let people know what's bothering me, instead of living my life a lie, so I figure I'd let them know through a certain way. I think people are taking it the wrong way.


----------



## Machine (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> It's not simply that. My brother wears pink shirts. I don't think I was exactly spreading my bigotry as people say I was. I just hate hiding stuff about me. I want to let people know what's bothering me, instead of living my life a lie, so I figure I'd let them know through a certain way. I think people are taking it the wrong way.


Among homophobia, what you've revealed to FAF is illegal and disgusting.

So, revealing that is not going to fly well here.


----------



## Kalmor (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> It's not simply that. My brother wears pink shirts. I don't think I was exactly spreading my bigotry as people say I was. I just hate hiding stuff about me. I want to let people know what's bothering me, instead of living my life a lie, so I figure I'd let them know through a certain way. I think people are taking it the wrong way.


Honestly which way do you think we are _supposed_ to take it? Accept your homophobia? Never in a million years.


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2013)

Machine said:


> So now you have a phobia of men in pink clothes. :V


He's afraid of being fabulous


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Honestly which way do you think we are _supposed_ to take it? Accept your homophobia? Never in a million years.


 Nobody will ever understand -_-


----------



## Machine (May 27, 2013)

Aleu said:


> He's afraid of being fabulous


Oh my~



TheMetalVelocity said:


> Nobody will ever understand -_-


Are you fucking thirteen or something.


----------



## Azure (May 27, 2013)

so far i can tell that op is afraid of transvestites, biker bears, little richard, prison gay black dude, people in obnoxious t-shirts, myspace style self photography, jeffree star, and drag queens.

why?

i mean, call it honesty, showing your true feelings, or any other drivel you wish, but its just blatant homophobia. or would you like all gay people to act "normal"? because thats just tantamount to suppression, which is equal to discrimination.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

Azure said:


> so far i can tell that op is afraid of transvestites, biker bears, little richard, prison gay black dude, people in obnoxious t-shirts, myspace style self photography, jeffree star, and drag queens.
> 
> why?
> 
> i mean, call it honesty, showing your true feelings, or any other drivel you wish, but its just blatant homophobia. or would you like all gay people to act "normal"? because thats just tantamount to suppression, which is equal to discrimination.


 I have gay pictures on my pc, so I don't think that's it. It's just certain aspects of it bother me and it makes me feel out of place when people force you to accept it. It's amazing how I am a bad person for simply expressing how I feel about something, yet people can say whatever they want to me and tell me I did illegal shit when in fact I didn't, so they are straight up telling lies about me, and I am being honest to people. I guess honesty gets you nowhere.


----------



## Ranguvar (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I have gay pictures on my pc,


Do you have a "untitled" folder with all your favorite pics? I think somebody needs to come out of the closest.


----------



## Inciatus (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I have gay pictures on my pc, so I don't think that's it. It's just certain aspects of it bother me and it makes me feel out of place when people force you to accept it. It's amazing how I am a bad person for simply expressing how I feel about something, yet people can say whatever they want to me and tell me I did illegal shit when in fact I didn't, so they are straight up telling lies about me, and I am being honest to people. I guess honesty gets you nowhere.


Illegal as in not really illegal but on this forum a really bad idea. Like if I went around saying atheists have no morals because or yadda yadda yadda and atheists want to ruin our society yadda yadda yadda. Now assuming I believed those things and I said those things yes there would be repercussions.

Again you need to learn when to talk and when to shut up. Yes honesty is good, but if I go into a black town and say I hate you people there are going to be repercussions. You don't do certain things in certain social situations. In this case you are once again just being an idiot.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 27, 2013)

Green_Knight said:


> Do you have a "untitled" folder with all your favorite pics? I think somebody needs to come out of the closest.


 no, they are furry male pics in the pictures section on my pc.


----------



## Machine (May 27, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I have gay pictures on my pc, so I don't think that's it. It's just certain aspects of it bother me and it makes me feel out of place when people force you to accept it. It's amazing how I am a bad person for simply expressing how I feel about something, yet people can say whatever they want to me and tell me *I did illegal shit when in fact I didn't,* so they are straight up telling lies about me, and I am being honest to people. I guess honesty gets you nowhere.


Liking dog dicks is illegal and gross.

Sorry to burst your bubble.


----------



## Aleu (May 27, 2013)

Machine said:


> Liking dog dicks is illegal and gross.
> 
> Sorry to burst your bubble.


Gross but not illegal. We don't have thought crimes established yet.


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

Machine said:


> Liking dog dicks is illegal and gross.
> 
> Sorry to burst your bubble.


I read this as licking and it wasn't until Aleu's post I realized it wasn't.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Machine said:


> Liking dog dicks is illegal and gross.


 I never fucked any animals, so I can't go to jail for anything, therefore I did nothing illegal. I was only curious like many human beings are when they grow up. Also, why is it okay for you to say that's gross, but if I say femmies are gross, I am a bad person? This is just unfair for me-_-


----------



## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I never fucked any animals, so I can't go to jail for anything, therefore I did nothing illegal. I was only curious like many human beings are when they grow up. Also, why is it okay for you to say that's gross, but if I say femmies are gross, I am a bad person?


because bestiality is the promotion of animal rape and you're still using slurs against people?


----------



## Willow (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I never fucked any animals, so I can't go to jail for anything, therefore I did nothing illegal. I was only curious like many human beings are when they grow up. Also, why is it okay for you to say that's gross, but if I say femmies are gross, I am a bad person? This is just unfair for me-_-


Because zoophilia and homophobia are both equally disgusting


----------



## Rilvor (May 28, 2013)

I'm guessing he must love the punishment or the attention or something. I'm thinking he needs to find other outlets if seeking the approval of FAF posters is something that important.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Aleu said:


> because bestiality is the promotion of animal rape and you're still using slurs against people?


 What do you mean by slurs?


----------



## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> People don't give me a chance.


Uh...to explain that you're a bigot? Yeah, we get it.


----------



## TeenageAngst (May 28, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Uh...to explain that you're a bigot? Yeah, we get it.



See sig.


----------



## Machine (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I never fucked any animals, so I can't go to jail for anything, therefore I did nothing illegal I was only curious like many human beings are when they grow up.


I never once thought about touching a dog's dick when I was growing up.



> Also, why is it okay for you to say that's gross, but if I say femmies are gross, I am a bad person?


BECAUSE LIKING DOG DICK AND LIKING TO DRESS AS THE OPPOSITE GENDER ARE NOT THE SAME, NOR ARE THEY EVEN IN THE *SAME FUCKING BOAT IN TERMS OF LEGALITY.
*


> This is just unfair for me-_-


Nobody. Fucking. Cares.


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I never fucked any animals, so I can't go to jail for anything, therefore I did nothing illegal. I was only curious like many human beings are when they grow up. Also, why is it okay for you to say that's gross, but if I say femmies are gross, I am a bad person? This is just unfair for me-_-


For the third time: You need to learn when to talk and when to shut up.

There is a culture on this forum of what is acceptable and what is not. Homosexuals are acceptable. Bestiality is not acceptable nor is it acceptable in most of the world (save Scotland and Wales :V).


----------



## Machine (May 28, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> For the third time: You need to learn when to talk and when to shut up.
> 
> There is a culture on this forum of what is acceptable and what is not. Homosexuals are acceptable. Bestiality is not acceptable nor is it acceptable in most of the world *(save Scotland and Wales :V)*.


The Scottish and the Welsh prefer the term "sheepfucker" in contrast with "dogfucker." :V


----------



## Kalmor (May 28, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> For the third time: You need to learn when to talk and when to shut up.
> 
> There is a culture on this forum of what is acceptable and what is not. Homosexuals are acceptable. Bestiality is not acceptable nor is it acceptable in most of the world (save Scotland *and Wales* :V).


Fuuu! :V

Yeah, TMV, heed this advice even if it's the only one you will ever heed. Learn to zip it for once...



Machine said:


> The Scottish and the Welsh prefer the term "sheepfucker" in contrast with "dogfucker." :V


Actually it's sheep-shagger that's the usual insult we get from the English. I live in Wales.


----------



## Willow (May 28, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> There is a culture on this forum of what is acceptable and what is not.


I would imagine most people with even the slightest bit of decency would agree that being gay is fine but being attracted to animals is not. This is not just an FAF cultural thing. Most people don't like being called bad names.


----------



## Machine (May 28, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Actually it's sheep-shagger that's the usual insult we get from the English. I live in Wales.


I thought a sheep shagger was someone who worked to get knots and dreads out of sheep fur.

Oh god.


----------



## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

Go FAF goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Seekrit (May 28, 2013)

The only thing of value I learned from this thread is that AshleyAshes is hot.


----------



## Azure (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I have gay pictures on my pc, so I don't think that's it. It's just certain aspects of it bother me and it makes me feel out of place when people force you to accept it. It's amazing how I am a bad person for simply expressing how I feel about something, yet people can say whatever they want to me and tell me I did illegal shit when in fact I didn't, so they are straight up telling lies about me, and I am being honest to people. I guess honesty gets you nowhere.


who is forcing you to accept things? those people are all minding their own business. you are the FURTHEST thing from their mind, be sure of it. where is the force in any of that? are you regularly browbeaten by packs of homosexuals on a magical quest to make you accept some intangible aspect of their culture or psychology? what the fuck are you talking about? your "honesty" makes no goddamn sense.


----------



## Rilvor (May 28, 2013)

Azure said:


> who is forcing you to accept things? those people are all minding their own business. you are the FURTHEST thing from their mind, be sure of it. where is the force in any of that? are you regularly browbeaten by packs of homosexuals on a magical quest to make you accept some intangible aspect of their culture or psychology? what the fuck are you talking about? your "honesty" makes no goddamn sense.


Maybe he was. Maybe a whole pack of gays surrounded him, and they criticized his fashion sense and beat him with feather boas coated in glitter. Surely you can see how such trauma could lead to this.


----------



## benignBiotic (May 28, 2013)

Rilvor said:


> Maybe he was. Maybe a whole pack of gays surrounded him, and they criticized his fashion sense and beat him with feather boas coated in glitter. Surely you can see how such trauma could lead to this.


"You guys will never understand. Why can't I just hate gay people?"

 TMV you are *really* good at ignoring advice and making the conversation all about yourself. You don't want to better yourself or 'be honest'. All you want is attention, though I can't understand what you're trying to bring attention to. Why the hell else would you revive a month old thread that we had mercifully forgotten about?


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

benignBiotic said:


> "You guys will never understand. Why can't I just hate gay people?"


 Why are you putting words in my mouth, I never said I hated gay people. It's not nice to spread rumors about people, because you can ruin someone's reputation.


----------



## Sutekh_the_Destroyer (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Why are you putting words in my mouth, I never said I hated gay people. It's not nice to spread rumors about people, because you can ruin someone's reputation.



No offence or anything, but I think you ruined your reputation yourself when you said you had "jacked off to bestiality porn before".


----------



## F A N G (May 28, 2013)

Willow said:


> I would imagine most people with even the slightest bit of decency would agree that being gay is fine but being attracted to animals is not.



I can call up 100s of things that aren't acceptable, Pedophilia, Necrophilia are 2 things.


----------



## Fallowfox (May 28, 2013)

Reading this gives me a tummy-ache.


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## Judge Spear (May 28, 2013)

Fallow has a headache in the stomach...


----------



## Distorted (May 28, 2013)

I'm gonna sound like a really lazy parent and say that hopefully he'll just grow out of it? I hate throwing the age card into things but he is pretty young...


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

Sutekh_the_Destroyer said:


> No offence or anything, but I think you ruined your reputation yourself when you said you had "jacked off to bestiality porn before".


Or when he said he doesn't believe in equality.

Also TMV that is what the whole thread is about, you and the gays.


----------



## Zuckerdachs (May 28, 2013)

Azure said:


> so far i can tell that op is afraid of transvestites, biker bears, little richard, prison gay black dude, people in obnoxious t-shirts, myspace style self photography, jeffree star, and drag queens.



Well, to be fair, is there anyone who is NOT afraid of Jeffree Star? His music is pretty atrocious.


----------



## Rigby (May 28, 2013)

Willow said:


> I would imagine most people with even the  slightest bit of decency would agree that being gay is fine but being  attracted to animals is not. This is not just an FAF cultural thing.  Most people don't like being called bad names.



That's a logical fallacy. "If you're an intelligent individual, you  would simply agree with me." That's a shitty argument no matter what the  context.



TheMetalVelocity said:


> I never fucked any animals, so I can't go to jail for anything, therefore I did nothing illegal. I was only curious like many human beings are when they grow up. Also, why is it okay for you to say that's gross, but if I say femmies are gross, I am a bad person? This is just unfair for me-_-



I honestly can't comprehend what must be going through your head. Why the fuck do you need to ask that question? One, you're pleasuring yourself to interspecies sexual abuse, which, according to very common knowledge, is frowned upon by most people. Obviously people think that's gross. People thinking bestiality is gross is nothing new.

Secondly, there's lots of LGBT members here (maybe not lots, but a lot of people who support LGBT rights and that like). If you go to a public forum with lots of people who support LGBT rights, then say it makes you sick, those people will get offended. This is pretty fucking obvious stuff.

Do both at the same time, while crying hypocritically about "having to hide things" about yourself (which a lot of LGBT people have to do, since people like you shame them for it. of course, LGBT individuals get victimized for who they are, and to a much more intense degree, while you're playing victim because of your shitty beliefs), and I don't know how you can't understand why people are annoyed by you.

1. You jerking it to people raping animals will get you mocked because most people feel very strongly that molesting and raping animals is very wrong.
2. You feigning ignorance over something that affects individuals' everyday lives will get those people pissed at you because it's incredibly insensitive.
3. You acting like a victim in a thread that was intended to defend your bigotry is going to make people who already see you as a stupid fuck dislike you even more.

Is ANY of this getting through to you AT ALL?


----------



## Troj (May 28, 2013)

Furries in glass doghouses shouldn't throw stones.


----------



## Sutekh_the_Destroyer (May 28, 2013)

Rigby said:


> Is ANY of this getting through to you AT ALL?



If it wasn't before then with your post it will.


----------



## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

Rigby made a decent post without mentioning his diapers. 

Praise Jesus.


----------



## gomander (May 28, 2013)

I'm a Christian and I really just learned to let it slide off my back. I mean, they're people too. I know a dude that dresses up as a woman for money. Cool dude, and as weird as it is I don't let it dictate how I react to him. I still joke with him about it, but I'm an odd dude in my own right and at the end of the day everyone I know gets the same treatment. Honestly, there are things I find disgusting, but they're things, not people. I find the act weird, the idea weird, the object weird. If that's what defines the person, if that's what has 90% of their time, then I might not be too keen on being around them. People can say the same thing about artists, people might have misconceptions about artists or just some unexplainable distaste for them. Meaning? I'm an artist, that person won't like me. So, I've got no problem with that, that's an aspect of my life that won't change. If someone got mad because I have a bird, then I might have a problem, it's a little thing in my life that hardly dictates anything I do. At the end of the day, you're in the right for not wanting to be around something that you dislike. Nobody says you have to eat foods you don't like, that's why we get options. If you're harping on a little thing though, a small aspect of someone that isn't a major part of their life, then you've got a problem. That's like disliking a a hamburger because there are little seeds in the bun. You just look odd having a conniption fit over something other people can ignore/pick out the bun.
I can't for the life of me talk to a man in a dress though, that is just far beyond my comfort zone.


----------



## Judge Spear (May 28, 2013)

AND RIGBY CARRYING WITH THE 5-0 PENTAKILL!!!!


----------



## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

gomander said:


> I'm a Christian and I really just learned to let it slide off my back. I mean, they're people too. I know a dude that dresses up as a woman for money. Cool dude, and as weird as it is I don't let it dictate how I react to him. I still joke with him about it, but I'm an odd dude in my own right and at the end of the day everyone I know gets the same treatment. Honestly, there are things I find disgusting, but they're things, not people. I find the act weird, the idea weird, the object weird. If that's what defines the person, if that's what has 90% of their time, then I might not be too keen on being around them. People can say the same thing about artists, people might have misconceptions about artists or just some unexplainable distaste for them. Meaning? I'm an artist, that person won't like me. So, I've got no problem with that, that's an aspect of my life that won't change. If someone got mad because I have a bird, then I might have a problem, it's a little thing in my life that hardly dictates anything I do. At the end of the day, you're in the right for not wanting to be around something that you dislike. Nobody says you have to eat foods you don't like, that's why we get options. If you're harping on a little thing though, a small aspect of someone that isn't a major part of their life, then you've got a problem. That's like disliking a a hamburger because there are little seeds in the bun. You just look odd having a conniption fit over something other people can ignore/pick out the bun.
> I can't for the life of me talk to a man in a dress though, that is just far beyond my comfort zone.


Anyone who hates sesame seed buns is a heretic.


----------



## gomander (May 28, 2013)

Artillery Spam said:


> Anyone who hates sesame seed buns is a heretic.



Well I'm gonna burn because I was the one picking them out their sandwich as a kid. I have no idea why.


----------



## Judge Spear (May 28, 2013)

gomander said:


> Well I'm gonna burn because I was the one picking them out their sandwich as a kid. I have no idea why.



You...wat? owo


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Azure said:


> who is forcing you to accept things? those people are all minding their own business. you are the FURTHEST thing from their mind, be sure of it. where is the force in any of that? are you regularly browbeaten by packs of homosexuals on a magical quest to make you accept some intangible aspect of their culture or psychology? what the fuck are you talking about? your "honesty" makes no goddamn sense.


 Simply saying I get freaked out by something that relates to that automatically makes me a hateful person, so I assume they want me to embrace/accept it one way or another. I am going to have to say, I have respect for you, as you have had respect for me and never went all ape-shit on me about anything on the forum, I mean for anything. I believe you mentioned that you are gay, and I have no problem with that.


If you read the original thread post, I didn't go about it aggressively. I always only trying to be honest to the community. As you can see all the hate I am getting, that I am a bigot, a bad person, a hypocrite (which everyone is at some point), and other terrible denunciations all because I wanted to let people know certain things, instead of hiding it. Maybe I didn't realize how I went about it. There is even homosexuals on here who have said the same things I have said, not on this thread specifically, but on the forums as well, and I don't see them getting hate for it.


----------



## Sutekh_the_Destroyer (May 28, 2013)

I've got a feeling this thread is going to get locked sooner or later.


----------



## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Simply saying I get freaked out by something that relates to that automatically makes me a hateful person, so I assume they want me to embrace/accept it one way or another. I am going to have to say, I have respect for you, as you have had respect for me and never went all ape-shit on me about anything on the forum, I mean for anything. I believe you mentioned that you are gay, and I have no problem with that.
> 
> 
> If you read the original thread post, I didn't go about it aggressively. I always only trying to be honest to the community. As you can see all the hate I am getting, that I am a bigot, a bad person, a hypocrite (which everyone is at some point), and other terrible denunciations all because I wanted to let people know certain things, instead of hiding it. Maybe I didn't realize how I went about it.* There is even homosexuals on here who have said the same things I have said, not on this thread specifically, but on the forums as well, and I don't see them getting hate for it*.


Where the fuck have you been?


----------



## Rigby (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I always only trying to be honest to the community.



And the community has been completely honest back.

You're  letting people know you have a problem, but not because you actually  want to change anything about it, and it's incredibly obvious with every  subsequent post that you don't want to change. So why the fuck did you make this thread? I've read  every post in it and all I can see your posts amounting to is flaunting  shit to get attention. Disliking transgendered individuals, masturbating  to bestiality, your assburgers, having no friends, your self-apathetic  posts; grow up. You're the equivalent of a child acting out so mommy  and daddy will pay more attention to you. You, you, you!

You should seek help, you should stop wallowing in your own self-pity, you should realize exactly why people think you're stupid. Oh wait, you did seek help, and then you used the diagnosis to get more attention. You realized why people think you're stupid, and you used that too to get more attention. Eventually, you're going to "stop" being self-apathetic and then use that too to try to get more attention. Is that really what you want of life?


----------



## DarrylWolf (May 28, 2013)

I guess that my actions over the past year regarding my fursona have taught me a great deal about the paradox of freedom of speech. I believe that in the US, at least, we have our rights protected by the First Amendment, including the right to free speech, however provocative or controversial it may be. However, we are not actually free to make controversial speech out of fear that others may take offense and litigate our rights to self-expression away, using the courts. *Freedom of speech is theoretical, not practical- this is due to the importance of being "politically correct".* In truth, many will never use their First Amendment to voice their opinions, because they are paralyzed by the fear that someone with legal clout might take offense. You are "free" to agree with the rest of society or he State- any other opinion is unacceptable. This is why I stepped away from "liberalism", because in spite of the fact that its very etymology speaks of freedom, liberals are shackled by a need to maintain political correctness at all costs, making everything that anyone says potentially racist, bigoted, or intolerant- this is the exact opposite of free speech.

Freedom of speech is like car insurance- it's nice to have but if you have to use it, you've doing something wrong.


----------



## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> I guess that my actions over the past year regarding my fursona have taught me a great deal about the paradox of freedom of speech. I believe that in the US, at least, we have our rights protected by the First Amendment, including the right to free speech, however provocative or controversial it may be. However, we are not actually free to make controversial speech out of fear that others may take offense and litigate our rights to self-expression away, using the courts. *Freedom of speech is theoretical, not practical- this is due to the importance of being "politically correct".* In truth, many will never use their First Amendment to voice their opinions, because they are paralyzed by the fear that someone with legal clout might take offense. You are "free" to agree with the rest of society or he State- any other opinion is unacceptable. This is why I stepped away from "liberalism", because in spite of the fact that its very etymology speaks of freedom, liberals are shackled by a need to maintain political correctness at all costs, making everything that anyone says potentially racist, bigoted, or intolerant- this is the exact opposite of free speech.
> 
> Freedom of speech is like car insurance- it's nice to have but if you have to use it, you've doing something wrong.



I don't have a problem with the first amendment. 

I get angry when people throw around blatantly racist, homophobic, sexist or other derogatory terms/statements---and then have the audacity to become pissy when their verbal bile becomes public and people give them shit. I can't restrict you from saying what you want to say; that would be against your rights as an American _and _as a human being, but I do expect you to take full responsibility for what comes out of your mouth. 

You are an adult after all. Take your lumps like one.


----------



## Fallowfox (May 28, 2013)

@ aleu In fairness there _have_ been numerous criticisms from gay users of feminine behaviour, often in the context of promoting masculinity in contrast to 'behaving like a 16 year old girl'...which is a bit of a strawman argument. 

Of course nobody is mandated to like traditionally feminine behaviour and personality traits, from whatever sex, just as long as it does not taint your perception of an entire group of people, cause you impractical levels of discomfort or make you treat people according to their subscription to a group rather than their actions.


----------



## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> I guess that my actions over the past year regarding my fursona have taught me a great deal about the paradox of freedom of speech. I believe that in the US, at least, we have our rights protected by the First Amendment, including the right to free speech, however provocative or controversial it may be. However, we are not actually free to make controversial speech out of fear that others may take offense and litigate our rights to self-expression away, using the courts. *Freedom of speech is theoretical, not practical- this is due to the importance of being "politically correct".* In truth, many will never use their First Amendment to voice their opinions, because they are paralyzed by the fear that someone with legal clout might take offense. You are "free" to agree with the rest of society or he State- any other opinion is unacceptable. This is why I stepped away from "liberalism", because in spite of the fact that its very etymology speaks of freedom, liberals are shackled by a need to maintain political correctness at all costs, making everything that anyone says potentially racist, bigoted, or intolerant- this is the exact opposite of free speech.
> 
> Freedom of speech is like car insurance- it's nice to have but if you have to use it, you've doing something wrong.


Freedom of speech is that you can speak out without the government mandating you, not people or general society, you fuckhead.


----------



## Zuckerdachs (May 28, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> I guess that my actions over the past year regarding my fursona have taught me a great deal about the paradox of freedom of speech. I believe that in the US, at least, we have our rights protected by the First Amendment, including the right to free speech, however provocative or controversial it may be. However, we are not actually free to make controversial speech out of fear that others may take offense and litigate our rights to self-expression away, using the courts. *Freedom of speech is theoretical, not practical- this is due to the importance of being "politically correct".* In truth, many will never use their First Amendment to voice their opinions, because they are paralyzed by the fear that someone with legal clout might take offense. You are "free" to agree with the rest of society or he State- any other opinion is unacceptable. This is why I stepped away from "liberalism", because in spite of the fact that its very etymology speaks of freedom, liberals are shackled by a need to maintain political correctness at all costs, making everything that anyone says potentially racist, bigoted, or intolerant- this is the exact opposite of free speech.
> 
> Freedom of speech is like car insurance- it's nice to have but if you have to use it, you've doing something wrong.




Oh, it's you again.

Freedom of speech works both ways, you idiot. Yes, you have a legal right to say what you want. Everyone else also has a right to tell you you're a racist fucking twat.


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## Batty Krueger (May 28, 2013)

What the fuck is happening here?

Someone write me cliff notes.


----------



## gomander (May 28, 2013)

d.batty said:


> What the fuck is happening here?
> 
> Someone write me cliff notes.


Dude says he's put off by stuff people do, folks take offense. Two sides of people being weird. One side is a guy that'll harp on little things, the other side a bunch of people taking offense at what he's harping about. A few really good posts telling him and everyone else in so many words they're all full of it/it's not that big of a deal. I admit to not liking the sesame seeds in sesame seed buns as a kid, earning the bile of two folks. Then some guy named DarrylWolf pops up and we find that he's clearly not welcome.


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## Percy (May 28, 2013)

gomander said:


> Dude says he's put off by stuff people do, folks take offense. Two sides of people being weird. One side is a guy that'll harp on little things, the other side a bunch of people taking offense at what he's harping about. A few really good posts telling him and everyone else in so many words they're all full of it/it's not that big of a deal. I admit to not liking the sesame seeds in sesame seed buns as a kid, earning the bile of two folks. Then some guy named DarrylWolf pops up and we find that he's clearly not welcome.


Clears things up real nicely, thank you.


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## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

gomander said:


> Dude says he's put off by stuff people do, folks take offense. Two sides of people being weird. One side is a guy that'll harp on little things, the other side a bunch of people taking offense at what he's harping about. A few really good posts telling him and everyone else in so many words they're all full of it/it's not that big of a deal. I admit to not liking the sesame seeds in sesame seed buns as a kid, earning the bile of two folks. Then some guy named DarrylWolf pops up and we find that he's clearly not welcome.



I was just messing around with the sesame seed bun thing, lol.

My internet sarcasm wasn't obvious enough. :c


----------



## gomander (May 28, 2013)

Artillery Spam said:


> I was just messing around with the sesame seed bun thing, lol.
> 
> My internet sarcasm wasn't obvious enough. :c



I know was the one messing with you


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

Artillery Spam said:


> I was just messing around with the sesame seed bun thing, lol.
> 
> My internet sarcasm wasn't obvious enough. :c


That is why we use this guy - :V


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## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

gomander said:


> I know was the one messing with you



It all makes sense now.


----------



## Batty Krueger (May 28, 2013)

gomander said:


> Dude says he's put off by stuff people do, folks take offense. Two sides of people being weird. One side is a guy that'll harp on little things, the other side a bunch of people taking offense at what he's harping about. A few really good posts telling him and everyone else in so many words they're all full of it/it's not that big of a deal. I admit to not liking the sesame seeds in sesame seed buns as a kid, earning the bile of two folks. Then some guy named DarrylWolf pops up and we find that he's clearly not welcome.


Oh ok


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Rigby said:


> And the community has been completely honest back.
> 
> You're  letting people know you have a problem, but not because you actually  want to change anything about it, and it's incredibly obvious with every  subsequent post that you don't want to change. So why the fuck did you make this thread? I've read  every post in it and all I can see your posts amounting to is flaunting  shit to get attention. Disliking transgendered individuals, masturbating  to bestiality, your assburgers, having no friends, your self-apathetic  posts; grow up. You're the equivalent of a child acting out so mommy  and daddy will pay more attention to you. You, you, you!
> 
> You should seek help, you should stop wallowing in your own self-pity, you should realize exactly why people think you're stupid. Oh wait, you did seek help, and then you used the diagnosis to get more attention. You realized why people think you're stupid, and you used that too to get more attention. Eventually, you're going to "stop" being self-apathetic and then use that too to try to get more attention. Is that really what you want of life?


 Telling me to grow up, yet your character is in diapers lmfao


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## Rigby (May 28, 2013)

I know, it's ironic that I'm the one who identifies as an infant, but you're the one acting like one.


----------



## Machine (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Telling me to grow up, yet your character is in diapers lmfao


It's not even his character, and it's no better than your avatar.



Rigby said:


> I know, it's ironic that I'm the one who identifies as an infant, but you're the one acting like one.


+1


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## Zabrina (May 28, 2013)

Sometimes I feel close-minded towards dogs.


Chihuahuas can go die in a pit, little critters.


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## Machine (May 28, 2013)

Zabrina said:


> Sometimes I feel close-minded towards dogs.
> 
> 
> Chihuahuas can go die in a pit, little critters.


Pomeranians are right there alongside them.


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## PsychicOtter (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Telling me to grow up, yet your character is in diapers lmfao



Insulting someone's avatar on a furry forum website is a very weak argument.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

PsychicOtter said:


> Insulting someone's avatar on a furry forum website is a very weak argument.


 yeah, I know. I just had to. People need to see themselves. While it may seem like I don't realize my mistakes (not saying that he made a mistake), but I in fact do realize I make mistakes. Sometimes my mistakes don't pop up in my head right away, because it's not always easy trying to see things from another viewpoint, or at least feeling it. I am a major thinker, and sometimes I overthink things or my OCD kicks in. I like realizing my mistakes, because I can now see why things are the way they are and in general. Maybe there was no purpose of me reviving this thread, but I didn't see it that way at the time, maybe I did a little, but my state of mind was different and how I was feeling mentally. Sometimes I can't keep shit to myself, because I hate living a lie, especially when you see people announce who they are and their personal life and when you do it you are a bad person for it, then again, that could be my mental state kicking in....Oh..god...yep! Seriously, I don't know. The world seems like no matter what I do or how many nice things I've done, it seems like everyone is out to get me, or I feel alienated on this planet, like I don't belong here. If you read my "Life is not fair for me" thread and read my last post on the last page I think then you'll see what I mean.


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## benignBiotic (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> yeah, I know. I just had to. People need to see themselves. While it may seem like I don't realize my mistakes (not saying that he made a mistake), but I in fact do realize I make mistakes. Sometimes my mistakes don't pop up in my head right away, because it's not always easy trying to see things from another viewpoint, or at least feeling it. *I am a major thinker*, and sometimes I overthink things or my OCD kicks in. I like realizing my mistakes, because I can now see why things are the way they are and in general. Maybe there was no purpose of me reviving this thread, but I didn't see it that way at the time, maybe I did a little, but my state of mind was different and how I was feeling mentally. Sometimes I can't keep shit to myself.


Literally laughed out loud.

If you are so aware of your faults maybe you ought to do something about them instead of flaunting them around so people can notice you? Or just ignore this advice and talk about foot fetishes some more. As usual.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

benignBiotic said:


> Literally laughed out loud.
> 
> If you are so aware of your faults maybe you ought to do something about them instead of flaunting them around so people can notice you? Or just ignore this advice and talk about foot fetishes some more. As usual.


 I make mistakes while typing too. Sometimes I can't find the right words and put the together and make it make sense to people, so it will be interpreted a certain way towards other people, typically as I struggle to think about what I want type at the same time as I am typing it. It's kind of like the reason why I can't draw. It's hard to imagine in your brain while your hands put it down. So when I am trying to get a word out to somebody, it will come out as something totally different. It's like this overwhelming blockage or fogginess that prohibits me from getting a message out to people the correct way. And, when I type, it can be something totally different than what I am thinking about, but somehow my mind interprets it as related, because it's like all I can do, so I hope it does the job. I do the same thing in real life and it makes it hard for people to understand where I am coming from.

For instance, I hope this post got what I wanted to get out to people the way it was intended to, instead of doing dances to try and interpret non-sense what I wanted to say in the text box. Sometimes I am afraid it's the wrong message even if I read it over.


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## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> yeah, I know. I just had to. People need to see themselves. While it may seem like I don't realize my mistakes (not saying that he made a mistake), but I in fact do realize I make mistakes. Sometimes my mistakes don't pop up in my head right away, because it's not always easy trying to see things from another viewpoint, or at least feeling it. I am a major thinker, and sometimes I overthink things or my OCD kicks in. I like realizing my mistakes, because I can now see why things are the way they are and in general. Maybe there was no purpose of me reviving this thread, but I didn't see it that way at the time, maybe I did a little, but my state of mind was different and how I was feeling mentally. Sometimes I can't keep shit to myself, because I hate living a lie, especially when you see people announce who they are and their personal life and when you do it you are a bad person for it, then again, that could be my mental state kicking in....Oh..god...yep! Seriously, I don't know. The world seems like no matter what I do or how many nice things I've done, it seems like everyone is out to get me, or I feel alienated on this planet, like I don't belong here. If you read my "Life is not fair for me" thread and read my last post on the last page I think then you'll see what I mean.


So mister major thinker? When are you going to realize the mistake of continually posting idiotic statements on this forum or the mistake of not heading my advice.

You want to know why you feel alienated and why you aren't liked?

Here we go! *Number four now: You need to learn when to talk and when to shut up! *You don't believe in equality or you don't like certain demographics? Guess what shut up about it especially if the place you are saying against these demographics consists largely of members either of or friendly to those demographics. Maybe you should spend less time being a major thinker and look at was in right in front of your face!


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## Rilvor (May 28, 2013)

It doesn't help to be a major thinker if you think in a circle, you know.


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## Shaade (May 28, 2013)

@OP - It should pass with time. If you really _want _it to, that is. Try to see the good in things. If it's not hurting anyone/thing, then what's wrong with it?
I myself was brought up in a pretty right-wing roman catholic community, and I had all the typical beliefs and prejudices that comes with that. Then when I started becoming an adult and thinking for myself/believing in myself and not being _afraid, _I started drifting further and further away from it and religion in general...but it took _years_. Now i'm 23, accept that i'm gay, and i'm also pretty femmy. (I dunno if you'd say i'm a full-blown femboy though, as I certainly _look _like one, but don't really act like one. At least not to the degree of the typical stereotype)


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## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> Here we go! *Number four now: You need to learn when to talk and when to shut up! *


But if he shuts up, WE'LL BE OPPRESSING HIS HONESTY


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## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

Aleu said:


> But if he shuts up, WE'LL BE OPPRESSING HIS HONESTY


More importantly we'll be missing out on this entertainment.


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## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

TMV, I think Stormfront would be a better forum for you. 

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/


Before you join, make sure you're white.


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## Fallowfox (May 28, 2013)

We feel sympathy for people who desire to be open, at the cost and harm of nobody else, but we don't for those who are uncomfortable with that notion- even if they voice it openly. It's not hypocritical or ironic. The irony is in openly stating that you find the harmless openness of others upsetting. Be aware this isn't a mandate to like the subject, I might not like watching my parents kissing, but if they want to be open that they love one another then I do not find this upsetting.

At the start of your thread you agknowledged that your attitude towards feminine homosexuals is closeminded, so rather than trying to contort their openness into a platform for whatever personal quirks you feel others judge you for, you could instead concentrate on disentangling the phobic response you have by appreciating that the stimulus is trivial. 

Because your own personal quirks are irrelevant to the subject which most people are actually preoccupied with some users might dismiss them callously [this excludes illegal activity] but this isn't a reason to interpret equality as hypocritical. Their dismissal is due to their irrelevant and distracting nature. Whether or not you're into x harmless but obscure activity, is of no matter- so that's the reason people say 'we don't care about x' not because they're operating a double standard.


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## Golden (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> yeah, I know. I just had to. People need to see themselves. While it may seem like I don't realize my mistakes (not saying that he made a mistake), but I in fact do realize I make mistakes. Sometimes my mistakes don't pop up in my head right away, because it's not always easy trying to see things from another viewpoint, or at least feeling it. I am a major thinker, and sometimes I overthink things or my OCD kicks in. I like realizing my mistakes, because I can now see why things are the way they are and in general. Maybe there was no purpose of me reviving this thread, but I didn't see it that way at the time, maybe I did a little, but my state of mind was different and how I was feeling mentally. Sometimes I can't keep shit to myself, because I hate living a lie, especially when you see people announce who they are and their personal life and when you do it you are a bad person for it, then again, that could be my mental state kicking in....Oh..god...yep! Seriously, I don't know. The world seems like no matter what I do or how many nice things I've done, it seems like everyone is out to get me, or I feel alienated on this planet, like I don't belong here. If you read my "Life is not fair for me" thread and read my last post on the last page I think then you'll see what I mean.



It's not that people are out to get you. If you're going to make homophobic threads on a site with lots of LGBT members, you're going to be put under a microscope. This post doesn't really excuse the others.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Golden said:


> It's not that people are out to get you. If you're going to make homophobic threads on a site with lots of LGBT members, you're going to be put under a microscope. This post doesn't really excuse the others.


 It wasn't to excuse the others.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Shaade said:


> @OP - It should pass with time. If you really _want _it to, that is. Try to see the good in things. If it's not hurting anyone/thing, then what's wrong with it?
> I myself was brought up in a pretty right-wing roman catholic community, and I had all the typical beliefs and prejudices that comes with that. Then when I started becoming an adult and thinking for myself/believing in myself and not being _afraid, _I started drifting further and further away from it and religion in general...but it took _years_. Now i'm 23, accept that i'm gay, and i'm also pretty femmy. (I dunno if you'd say i'm a full-blown femboy though, as I certainly _look _like one, but don't really act like one. At least not to the degree of the typical stereotype)


 You look like an 80s rocker or metal-head XP. keep in mind, when I express myself about femmyness, it also pertains to the degree of femmyness. Sometimes, there is people that just creep me out like chris crocker type or davey wavey on youtube and the people he hangs out with. This is going to be weird to announce, but sometimes I scare myself, because of the way I talk and my hand movements/gestures are very girlish and have been that way since I was little, at least it feels that way, kind of makes me a little insecure feeling. I always felt like the young feminine brother compared to my two older brothers. It's just that sometimes when there is like that stereotypical kind of people like you said and very tranny type where you can't even tell it's a guy or a girl anymore. I feel out of place around them or confused. It's the same feeling you get when your parents are experimenting or going out with someone new, then it makes you feel like awkward or not in place, or like your life has changed drastically and the whole picture is wrong, and, also feels alienated or violates your way of nature type feeling.


----------



## Willow (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> Sometimes I can't keep shit to myself, because I hate living a lie, especially when you see people announce who they are and their personal life and when you do it you are a bad person for it, then again, that could be my mental state kicking in....Oh..god...yep! Seriously, I don't know. The world seems like no matter what I do or how many nice things I've done, it seems like everyone is out to get me, or I feel alienated on this planet, like I don't belong here. If you read my "Life is not fair for me" thread and read my last post on the last page I think then you'll see what I mean.


If you keep certain things to yourself, it doesn't mean you're living a lie, it just means you have sense enough not to say it in certain situations that could get you reprimanded by the general public. 

And don't try to turn this around and make it seem like you're a victim right now either. You dug yourself into a hole on this one. 



Artillery Spam said:


> TMV, I think Stormfront would be a better forum for you.
> 
> http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
> 
> ...


This forum is comedy gold


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> You look like an 80s rocker or metal-head XP. keep in mind, when I express myself about femmyness, it also pertains to the degree of femmyness. Sometimes, there is people that just creep me out like chris crocker type or davey wavey on youtube and the people he hangs out with. This is going to be weird to announce, but sometimes I scare myself, because of the way I talk and my hand movements/gestures are very girlish and have been that way since I was little, at least it feels that way, kind of makes me a little insecure feeling. I always felt like the young feminine brother compared to my two older brothers. It's just that sometimes when there is like that stereotypical kind of people like you said and very tranny type where you can't even tell it's a guy or a girl anymore. I feel out of place around them or confused. It's the same feeling you get when your parents are experimenting or going out with someone new, then it makes you feel like awkward or not in place, or like your life has changed drastically and the whole picture is wrong, and, also feels alienated or violates your way of nature type feeling.


Guess what! We don't care you feel awkward!

From what I can tell you are uncomfortable around femmy people because you fear you might have those tendencies.


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## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> You look like an 80s rocker or metal-head XP. keep in mind, when I express myself about *femmyness*, it also pertains to the degree of *femmyness*. Sometimes, there is people that just creep me out like chris crocker type or davey wavey on youtube and the people he hangs out with. This is going to be weird to announce, but sometimes I scare myself, because of the way I talk and my hand movements/gestures are very girlish and have been that way since I was little, at least it feels that way, kind of makes me a little insecure feeling. I always felt like the young feminine brother compared to my two older brothers. It's just that sometimes when there is like that stereotypical kind of people like you said and very* tranny* type where you can't even tell it's a guy or a girl anymore. I feel out of place around them or confused. It's the same feeling you get when your parents are experimenting or going out with someone new, then it makes you feel like awkward or not in place, or like your life has changed drastically and the whole picture is wrong, and, also feels alienated or violates your way of nature type feeling.


Can we cut the slurs, pleasethankyou
Seriously, what part of shut the fuck up do you not understand?


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Can we cut the slurs, pleasethankyou
> Seriously, what part of shut the fuck up do you not understand?


I don't think he understands who is supposed to.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Can we cut the slurs, pleasethankyou
> Seriously, what part of shut the fuck up do you not understand?


 I was giving an explanation to him. thank you. I had to use those words to explain what I am trying to get at, so I replied to him. How about you two please stop getting offended when it wasn't supposed to be offensive. Then I am the bad guy that's making excuses. Those words aren't prohibited, and shaade knows where I am coming from.


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I was giving an explanation to him. thank you. I had to use those words to explain what I am trying to get at, so I replied to him. How about you two please stop getting offended when it wasn't supposed to be offensive. Then I am the bad guy that's making excuses. Those words aren't prohibited, and shaade knows where I am coming from.


I assure you the only thing offending me is your stupidity and your inability to understand and accept social constructs or at least deny them in a productive manner.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Willow said:


> If you keep certain things to yourself, it doesn't mean you're living a lie, it just means you have sense enough not to say it in certain situations that could get you reprimanded by the general public.
> 
> And don't try to turn this around and make it seem like you're a victim right now either. You dug yourself into a hole on this one.
> 
> ...


 Sometimes I just don't fucking know whether something will get me reprimanded or not.


----------



## Zuckerdachs (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I was giving an explanation to him. thank you. I had to use those words to explain what I am trying to get at, so I replied to him. How about you two please stop getting offended when it wasn't supposed to be offensive. Then I am the bad guy that's making excuses. Those words aren't prohibited, and shaade knows where I am coming from.



You really need to educate yourself on what constitutes a slur. "Tranny" is not acceptable.

Here. There are even little boxes to click that explain what makes the words offensive.
http://www.gayneighbor.org/offensive.php


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Inciatus said:


> I assure you the only thing offending me is your stupidity and your inability to understand and accept social constructs or at least deny them in a productive manner.


 Deny them in a productive manner? Yep, that makes me a much better person. Good job.


----------



## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Zuckerdachs said:


> Here. There are even little boxes to click that explain what makes the words offensive.
> http://www.gayneighbor.org/offensive.php


 OMFG, are you serious? if I say any of those words that are considered "offensive" such as sex change, I did something wrong? That's their fault if they get offended.


----------



## Zuckerdachs (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> OMFG, are you serious? if I say any of those words that are considered "offensive" such as sex change, I did something wrong? That's their fault if they get offended.



Welp, I tried.

Open season, everyone!


----------



## Troj (May 28, 2013)

I understand the desire to explain yourself and make other people understand you--I tend to do the same thing, when I feel people haven't understood me, or haven't shown my argument the respect I think it deserves--but right now, you're only digging yourself in deeper, Metal, and giving people more things to object to or argue with.

I think it'd be in your best interest to budget your words here, since your longer responses to people are definitely not working in your favor. Your point isn't being made any clearer, and you're giving people more "grist for the mill," so to speak. 

It also may be in your best interest to apologize and quit this thread. I think things are beyond damage control at this point, so it makes sense to just leave this thread behind, and start over.


----------



## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

Zuckerdachs said:


> You really need to educate yourself on what constitutes a slur. "Tranny" is not acceptable.
> 
> Here. There are even little boxes to click that explain what makes the words offensive.
> http://www.gayneighbor.org/offensive.php


What's wrong with Gender Bender? He's my favorite wrestler from the 3000s.



			
				TMV said:
			
		

> Deny them in a productive manner? How so?


You don't bring anything new or acceptable to the argument as to why we shouldn't accept such and such construct. Instead you come up say "these people make me uncomfortable, I don't believe in equality...Baww everyone is yelling at me and it is unfair." You haven't given us any legitimate reason to change said construct. If you had there may have been some discussion besides: "You need to learn to shut up" "Baww everything is so unfair you don't get me" It is unlikely the construct would have changed but at least there could be a legitimate conversation rather than this trainwreck.


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## Toshabi (May 28, 2013)

I find that someone calling you closed minded is the same thing as them saying you have standards in this day and age. :V


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## Willow (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I was giving an explanation to him. thank you. I had to use those words to explain what I am trying to get at, so I replied to him. How about you two please stop getting offended when it wasn't supposed to be offensive. Then I am the bad guy that's making excuses. Those words aren't prohibited, and shaade knows where I am coming from.


ahh yes, if a person is using slurs that offend you but they're not intended to actually _be_ offensive or hurtful, it's perfectly okay to use them and you have no right to get upset about it. A+ logic

If I'm ever in a group and they start dropping the N-Word or something I'll remember this. "we didn't mean for it to offended you, so why are you getting mad?"

Gee, maybe people are taking offense to slurs because, I dunno *IT'S FUCKING NAME CALLING AND IT'S HURTFUL TO PEOPLE?????*


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 28, 2013)

Troj said:


> I understand the desire to explain yourself and make other people understand you--I tend to do the same thing, when I feel people haven't understood me, or haven't shown my argument the respect I think it deserves--but right now, you're only digging yourself in deeper, Metal, and giving people more things to object to or argue with.
> 
> I think it'd be in your best interest to budget your words here, since your longer responses to people are definitely not working in your favor. Your point isn't being made any clearer, and you're giving people more "grist for the mill," so to speak.
> 
> It also may be in your best interest to apologize and quit this thread. I think things are beyond damage control at this point, so it makes sense to just leave this thread behind, and start over.


 I am trying to do the opposite, and it somehow is digging me deeper. I am actually trying to reason with people but every word that comes of my mouth is offensive. Can't say "tranny", can't say "sex change", can't say "femmy", only they can. Especially when the words weren't supposed to be offensive. I even admitted to my problems I have. I wrote those long posts on previous pages so people can understand me better and where I am coming from.


P.S I think you're right, this is stressing me out over stupid shit. I don't feel like being framed as a horrible person over stupid shit like this. If I say shit that they find offensive or disturbing, maybe they should shut up as well to keep piece. Also, if they find something taboo that I said on a post, I did something wrong or gross? Then they talk about social construct as being bad. I could be doing something wrong by their standards just by simply saying I like naked woman in fursuits(obviously it's okay for them to feel uncomfortable or grossed out by it and actually tell me it straight out), but simply saying x makes me uncomfortable makes me a complete horrible person or offensive being? If that's okay, then why is it bad for a percentage of people that dislike the super effeminate people or behavior? Maybe I am offended by what they said about me and telling me that I did illegal shit (which I didn't obviously)? Nobody ever thought about that. 

At least I never went aggressive about this whole thing up until now.


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## TeenageAngst (May 28, 2013)

As much as I don't like dragging crap from Facebook into... well, anywhere else really, this is relevant to your interests TMV.

It's okay to hate things, it's just how we are. I hate rich people, you hate gay people, etc. You don't have to accept everybody.

However, we have to tolerate them cause it's 'muricuh and we're all in this together.


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## Zuckerdachs (May 28, 2013)

TMV, the reason people are pissed is that you refuse to learn, even when supplied with information to help you do so. You're being willfully, deliberately ignorant and there's absolutely no excuse for it at this point.

And by the way, words have meaning, a lot of which comes from context. A transgender person using the word "tranny" in irony is not the same as someone saying it who has expressed, over and over again, that he doesn't like transgender people. If everyone has strong negative reactions to your word choice and attitude, maybe you should start blaming the guy behind your keyboard, not the rest of the world.


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## Artillery Spam (May 28, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> As much as I don't like dragging crap from Facebook into... well, anywhere else really, this is relevant to your interests TMV.
> 
> It's okay to hate things, it's just how we are. I hate rich people, you hate gay people, etc. You don't have to accept everybody.
> 
> However, we have to tolerate them cause it's 'muricuh and we're all in this together.



I think just about everyone hates rich people. 

At least the ones that continue to break the planet that is.


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## Aleu (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I am trying to do the opposite, and it somehow is digging me deeper. I am actually trying to reason with people but every word that comes of my mouth is offensive. Can't say "tranny", can't say "sex change", can't say "femmy", only they can. Especially when the words weren't supposed to be offensive. I even admitted to my problems I have. I wrote those long posts on previous pages so people can understand me better and where I am coming from.
> 
> 
> P.S I think you're right, this is stressing me out over stupid shit. I don't feel like being framed as a horrible person over stupid shit like this. *If I say shit that they find offensive or disturbing, maybe they should shut up as well to keep piece*. Also, if they find something taboo that I said on a post, I did something wrong or gross? Then they talk about social construct as being bad. I could be doing something wrong by their standards just by simply saying I like naked woman in fursuits(obviously it's okay for them to feel uncomfortable or grossed out by it and actually tell me it straight out), but simply saying x makes me uncomfortable makes me a complete horrible person or offensive being? If that's okay, then why is it bad for a percentage of people that dislike the super effeminate people or behavior? Maybe I am offended by what they said about me and telling me that I did illegal shit (which I didn't obviously)? Nobody ever thought about that.
> ...


Or maybe you should just  not be a twat?


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## Inciatus (May 28, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I am trying to do the opposite, and it somehow is digging me deeper. I am actually trying to reason with people but every word that comes of my mouth is offensive.


Trust me even if your words in your posts weren't offensive you would still find yourself here.



> I wrote those long posts on previous pages so people can understand me better and where I am coming from.


And we disagree and find your points invalid and/or laughable.



> I don't feel like being framed as a horrible person over stupid shit like this.


Don't worry we thought you were a horrible person long before this thread. 



> If I say shit that they find offensive or disturbing, maybe they should shut up as well to keep piece. And, if they find something taboo that I said on a post, I did something wrong or gross.


You don't understand how the internet or people in general work. If someone went around saying I don't like Jews or I don't like white people because they make me uncomfortable you bet yourself I'm going to be mad. I may not do anything about it besides voice my dislike but I'll be mad. 



> Then they talk about social construct as being bad.


No I said you don't understand or follow it. Again you are just being an unobservant buffoon.  



> I could be doing something wrong by their standards just by simply saying I like naked woman in fursuits(obviously it's okay for them to feel uncomfortable or grossed out by it), but simply saying x makes me uncomfortable makes me a complete horrible person or offensive being.


1) If they are wearing something they are not naked
2) More importantly learn about the people around you. Here many people are either members of the community you claim to be unhappy about or are friendly to it. It would be like if I went up and said I dislike the colored population. Depending on where I am I will have different responses. If I am at a KKK meeting I will likely be met with applause. If I am at an NAACP meeting I will probably be met with strong disapproval. 



> Maybe I am offended by what they said about me and telling me that I did illegal shit (which I didn't obviously)?


Again not actually illegal. 'Illegal' by FAF standards and still not illegal. Again read the same example above to understand.



> Nobody ever thought about that. At least I never went aggressive about the whole thing up until now.


No, but you have been an absolute dunderhead and refuse to listen to any of our statements. If you had wanted to avoid this you should have listened when I first said and now for the fifth time *learn when to talk and when to shut up.*â€‹


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## Troj (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I wrote those long posts on previous pages so people can understand me better and where I am coming from.



Nah, I've found that more words just tend to create more room for misunderstandings, whether intentional or unintentional.

A few words, carefully chosen, are harder to distort or misunderstand. 



> P.S I think you're right,



I tend to be, when it comes to these things .

You're still doing it, though. That's what's driving people crazy.

Insisting on defending yourself is only making OTHER people more defensive.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 29, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> As much as I don't like dragging crap from Facebook into... well, anywhere else really, this is relevant to your interests TMV.
> 
> It's okay to hate things, it's just how we are. I hate rich people, you hate gay people, etc. You don't have to accept everybody.
> 
> However, we have to tolerate them cause it's 'muricuh and we're all in this together.


 I just figured out, if those people weren't rich, we could be living in a better house or community and can easily afford to pay our bills, because all that money that the rich people had sucked into their pockets was once spread around the nation.


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## Inciatus (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I just figured out, if those people weren't rich, we could be living in a better house or community and can easily afford to pay our bills, because all that money that the rich people had sucked into their pockets was once spread around the nation.


That assumes a lot most of which is wrong.
I dislike some wealthy people as well. People who throw away large amounts of perfectly good food, silverware, glassware, and are just utter assholes to people working as though they are a lower type of life.


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## Willow (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> If I say shit that they find offensive or disturbing, maybe they should shut up as well to keep piece.


Or you could just..keep it to yourself because it makes people upset or uncomfortable. And not in the way that you are around gay people either. Acting like they're the ones who should get over it and leave you alone doesn't really work when you're the one insulting them. 



> Also, if they find something taboo that I said on a post, I did something wrong or gross?


Well..saying you've fapped to interspecies animal rape is kind of gross ngl




> but simply saying x makes me uncomfortable makes me a complete horrible person or offensive being? If that's okay, then why is it bad for a percentage of people that dislike the super effeminate people or behavior?


I know a lot of people that don't necessarily like gay people, but are at least tolerant of them and they realize that talking about how uncomfortable gays make them around a bunch of gays is probably not a great idea. And literally every attempt to get you to either see how ignorant you're being or stop using slurs that are legitimately upsetting people is met with bullshit excuses like this. Maybe _you_ should stop talking and educate yourself on how words affect people. 



> Maybe I am offended by what they said about me and telling me that I did illegal shit (which I didn't obviously)? Nobody ever thought about that.


Stop. Acting. Like. A victim!!!!!


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## Rigby (May 29, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> As much as I don't like dragging crap from Facebook into... well, anywhere else really, this is relevant to your interests TMV.



uh that's from tumblr, but a very good point, hopefully it finally got across to him...



TheMetalVelocity said:


> I just figured out, if those people weren't rich, we could be living in a better house or community and can easily afford to pay our bills, because all that money that the rich people had sucked into their pockets was once spread around the nation.



...holy fucking shit, are you being completely serious right now? THAT is what you got from his post?


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 29, 2013)

Willow said:


> Or you could just..keep it to yourself because it makes people upset or uncomfortable. And not in the way that you are around gay people either. Acting like they're the ones who should get over it and leave you alone doesn't really work when you're the one insulting them.
> 
> 
> *Well..saying you've fapped to interspecies animal rape is kind of gross ngl*
> ...


 You're only proving my point even more.


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## TheMetalVelocity (May 29, 2013)

I give up. I am tired of one sided bullshit.


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## Artillery Spam (May 29, 2013)

Ragequit


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## Judge Spear (May 29, 2013)

^^wat


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## Inciatus (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> You're only proving my point even more.


And you are only proving ours more.

Please stop double posting. It is annoying.


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## Rigby (May 29, 2013)

the point is that if you have ignorant, poorly articulated thoughts and try to use them to victimize yourself that people will call you on your bullshit?

oh wow, i guess this thread had a good point all along


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## PsychicOtter (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I give up. I am tired of one sided bullshit.


And so it ends.  Well, show's over.


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## Judge Spear (May 29, 2013)

I'll just...leave this here.


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## Willow (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> You're only proving my point even more.





Inciatus said:


> And you are only proving ours more.


^^^^ this right here

If you honestly expect a queer (?) person to actually side with you and think "oh, maybe he has a point. I'll stop being offended by them using slurs" then do I have news for you.


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## Inciatus (May 29, 2013)

Well I suppose that is it. See you all back here in a month?


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## Aleu (May 29, 2013)

TheMetalVelocity said:


> I give up. I am tired of one sided bullshit.


Holy fucking christ are you fucking serious?


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## Judge Spear (May 29, 2013)

Aleu said:


> Holy fucking christ are you fucking serious?



I'm not the fastest bullet in the magazine, but I'm gonna assume that was a rhetorical question.


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## TeenageAngst (May 29, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> I'll just...leave this here.



Son, you're later than a sexually active teenager in Mississippi.


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## Inciatus (May 29, 2013)

XoPachi said:


> I'm not the fastest bullet in the magazine, but I'm gonna assume that was a rhetorical question.


Actually I'm not sure if it is. I think it might be but Aleu's asking if he is serious wouldn't be too far off. I can't tell if he is serious and is just that dense.


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## Judge Spear (May 29, 2013)

Real question is why this went on for not one, not two, not three, but FIFTEEN pages? This should've been locked at like...page 6.


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## Inciatus (May 29, 2013)

More importantly why will the thread continue for another 5-6 in one month's time when he has something new to add?


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## benignBiotic (May 30, 2013)

Zuckerdachs said:


> TMV, the reason people are pissed is that you refuse to learn, even when supplied with information to help you do so. You're being willfully, deliberately ignorant and there's absolutely no excuse for it at this point.


TMV: The Post! 

OP: You are a dingus. No matter how much people to try to help, advise, or reprimand you none of it gets through. None. When repirmanded you play the victim as if it absolves you of any culpability. By all means keep it up. Your posts supply me with a lot of entertainment.



			
				TheMetalVelocity said:
			
		

> How about you two please stop getting offended when it wasn't supposed to be offensive.


Good lord. Do you hear yourself?


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