# Veteran FAF members heed my call!



## KimberVaile (Jan 24, 2021)

Well, admittedly this is a pretty niche appeal here, but after giving a peer over the "Why do Trolls Hate Us," thread that was made in 2008; I've taken a sort of weird fascination with the online culture of FAF from the yonder years(I blame my interest in history partially).  Seeing the way people spoke and bantered then; it's like a weird little time capsule of sorts, quite interesting!
I joined pretty late to site, during 2017, so I missed a lot of what happened before. So, I suppose I'm curious if some of the more grizzled or veteran members of the site who have been around for more than 5 or 6 years, might have some insight. How was the site different from now in terms of forum culture, and what were some of the more err 'dramatic' moments that happened way back? 

It'd be great if I could nab somebody from the 06-09 days! Must be stories a plenty! Heck, a few old threads from those days would be pretty interesting too! Won't hold my breath though, most of the older members have long since parted ways with the site unfortunately. Still, thought it was worth giving it a try!


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## TyraWadman (Jan 24, 2021)

Technically I'm from 2010 but I feel things have definitely made progress since then. 

1 part shit-posters, SFW-only extremists, and the 'anyone that is not hetero is mentally ill' brigade was relevant when I first joined. Didn't bother using it much for very long though, since it was clique central. 

I suppose in regards to shit-posting and cliques it's still the same. Just new faces/attitudes.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 24, 2021)

I don't remember what was being discussed when I joined in 2009, but I do recall that random trolling was more prevalent. If I recall correctly, admin's threshold for thread locking was higher as well.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 24, 2021)

I actually miss neo-FAF when all the rampant trolling and shitposting took place, even the staff was in on it most of the time. Those where the days...


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 24, 2021)

And you hated the idea of coming back here so much. The name and avatar maybe slightly different, but I remember you, bro. Actually it kinda makes me wonder how many former fuck FAF members are back here under a new name. I wonder if Mentova and Ozriel are still around...


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 25, 2021)

I really do miss this guy, I gave him so much shit but he took it pretty well. Gotta respect him for that.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> Technically I'm from 2010 but I feel things have definitely made progress since then.
> 
> 1 part shit-posters, SFW-only extremists, and the 'anyone that is not hetero is mentally ill' brigade was relevant when I first joined. Didn't bother using it much for very long though, since it was clique central.
> 
> I suppose in regards to shit-posting and cliques it's still the same. Just new faces/attitudes.


Interesting. Yeah, a lot of the shitpost culture is very rare to see now. I think I witnessed the twilight of that in 2017, as the last few shitposters kind of lost interest/got banned. Kind of surprised to hear that Burn Furs mentality lingered for so long. Perhaps it was a social response to the early years were trolling was common in the fandom.


Kit H. Ruppell said:


> I don't remember what was being discussed when I joined in 2009, but I do recall that random trolling was more prevalent. If I recall correctly, admin's threshold for thread locking was higher as well.


This makes sense, I know the mid to late 2000s was the high point for fandom trolling.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

Mr. Fox said:


> I actually miss neo-FAF when all the rampant trolling and shitposting took place, even the staff was in on it most of the time. Those where the days...


A part of me feels like I missed out or that is to say I at least wished I could have seen a bit of it myself. If not for the fact that seemed to be a trial by fire element that you needed to go through to become a member. I guess the seeming exclusivity of it was alluring in a way.

Not too knock current FAF, it's nice it's more inclusive and such which obviously makes it more broadly welcoming. But, a part of me wanted to see the roughhouse too and maybe even have a good natured throw down. Kind of nags at me that I never saw it for myself. It's like I'm missing most of the pages from the story.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 25, 2021)

The former community was under the impression that fostering a hug-box type of environment would breed its own sort of toxicity so it was often quickly stamped out. Back then the feel of FAF was more akin to sitting in a bar room, having a few drinks and shooting the breeze with the occasional bar fight. It was kind of nice because not everyone took themselves so seriously back then, as you often see here on FAF today.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

Mr. Fox said:


> The former community was under the impression that fostering a hug-box type of environment would breed its own sort of toxicity so it was often quickly stamped out. Back then the feel of FAF was more akin to sitting in a bar room, having a few drinks and shooting the breeze with the occasional bar fight. It was kind of nice because not everyone took themselves so seriously back then, as you often see here on FAF today.


That's what I was seeing in that 08 thread, a lack of self seriousness, that lax aspect to it, that's what drew me to it. Everybody seemed in good spirits, cracking jokes, and very earnest in intent, people seemed to respect each other a little more too. You make me feel nostalgic for something I've never experienced. Ah well..what's done is done. Perhaps I've got an inflated/romantic perception of it, dunno


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## TyraWadman (Jan 25, 2021)

If cracking jokes at the expense of another/hazing someone to be one of the 'cool kids' is your cup of tea, then sure. 

Some people were twisted enough to go about harassing other users for absolutely no reason, and then turn around to comfort someone because they openly expressed that they had depression or were experiencing suicidal thoughts. Reminds me of those stories where someone keeps poisoning a person just so they look selfless for taking care of them.

I believe Encyclopedia Dramatica and their extremist followers were still around for this time. Entertaining to look through the cringe, but also cringey to see how messed up some of these people were to actually have them stalk and document every breath of another human being, and with such extreme, unrelenting rage. 

I really don't think people were any more relaxed than they are today. Just different triggers/topics of the time.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

TyraWadman said:


> If cracking jokes at the expense of another/hazing someone to be one of the 'cool kids' is your cup of tea, then sure.
> 
> Some people were twisted enough to go about harassing other users for absolutely no reason, and then turn around to comfort someone because they openly expressed that they had depression or were experiencing suicidal thoughts. Reminds me of those stories where someone keeps poisoning a person just so they look selfless for taking care of them.
> 
> ...


Weren't there more mods back then, or were the enforcement of rules less consistent? If that's the case, it does seem like FAF has struggled to find it's balance for a long time. It does seem more stable now, though, I don't feel like the toxicity has left completely now, it just manifests in different forms. The drama feels ceaseless and exponentially more petty, though, I guess drama probably happened often then too. Going by what you mentioned. Perhaps worse than it is now.

I suppose the grass looks always greener in hindsight, it's easy to look at the current problems and subsequently praise something that you don't have a full comprehension of, but I suppose it just makes me more curious if anything to know all the details. I do remember ED being big in the mid-late 2000's so, that'd make sense, especially since it correlates with the constant trolling.
Discontent at an imperfect forum I suppose. Perhaps the current forum bugbears and my subsequent idealization of the past says more about my own frustrations. I'd be the first to admit the incessant conflicts are starting to wear on me.

That's neither here nor there though, the insight is educational regardless, for that I am thankful.


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

The mods were far more chill and interacted with the members in threads more often rather than just swooping in to administer punishment from on high. Hats off to Minty and the work he did.

It was definitely less hug-boxy and cliquish. There weren't so many witch hunts for "wrong think" nor were they as tolerated. It was more just shoot the shit and have fun with one another. Trolling was an acceptable past time and the ones who had thicker skins were the ones that stuck around and became regulars while those that didn't bailed. Murry purry furry types would roll on up in here and be all "owo, cuddles you/notices your bulgy wulgey" and the regulars would be like, "wut" and point out how ridiculous they were. Didn't go well with many from the main site who viewed FaF as a toxic cesspool because it wasn't immediately accepting of furry cringe behavior. Dragoneer _hated_ FaF and there was often talk about plans to remove it floating around the forums. The hot topic buttons back then were more anti-religion. (not that that has changed much since, mind) God help you if you admitted to having Christian faith. Been on the wrong end of that dog pile several times. Trans stuff wasn't the divisive issue it is now and one of the more respected regular members was trans herself and often the voice of reason when threads got heated. (Miss you Red. Rest your soul)


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## TyraWadman (Jan 25, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Weren't there more mods back then, or were the enforcement of rules less consistent? If that's the case, it does seem like FAF has struggled to find it's balance for a long time. It does seem more stable now, though, though I don't feel like the toxicity has left completely now, it just manifests in different forms. The drama feels ceaseless and exponentially more petty, though, I guess drama probably happened often then too. Going by what you mentioned. Perhaps worse than it is now.
> 
> I suppose the grass looks always greener in hindsight, it's easy to look at the current problems and subsequently praise something that you don't have a full comprehension of, but I suppose it just makes me more curious if anything to know all the details. I do remember ED being big in the mid-late 2000's so, that'd make sense, especially since it correlates with the constant trolling.
> Discontent at an imperfect forum I suppose. Perhaps the current forum bugbears and my subsequent idealization of the past says more about my own frustrations. I'd be the first to admit the incessant conflicts are starting to wear on me.



I do believe they had more mods back then! But the rules/policies were different, or mods just each had their own take on how they thought things should be handled. I was quickly warned to watch my wording despite it being generalized and unrelated to my experiences. Everyone that picked at the newbies were obviously still flourishing. 

Wherever there are bored people there will always be opportunity for drama. It can be a bit hard to avoid it though, considering people will try and leak it into every other unrelated thread that they can grasp. You're definitely not the only one feeling this frustration.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 25, 2021)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> The mods were far more chill and interacted with the members in threads more often rather than just swooping in to administer punishment from on high. Hats off to Minty and the work he did.
> 
> It was definitely less hug-boxy and cliquish. There weren't so many witch hunts for "wrong think" nor were they as tolerated. It was more just shoot the shit and have fun with one another. Trolling was an acceptable past time and the ones who had thicker skins were the ones that stuck around and became regulars while those that didn't bailed. Murry purry furry types would roll on up in here and be all "owo, cuddles you/notices your bulgy wulgey" and the regulars would be like, "wut" and point out how ridiculous they were. Didn't go well with many from the main site who viewed FaF as a toxic cesspool because it wasn't immediately accepting of furry cringe behavior. Dragoneer _hated_ FaF and there was often talk about plans to remove it floating around the forums. The hot topic buttons back then were more anti-religion. (not that that has changed much since, mind) God help you if you admitted to having Christian faith. Been on the wrong end of that dog pile several times. Trans stuff wasn't the divisive issue it is now and one of the more respected regular members was trans herself and often the voice of reason when threads got heated. (Miss you Red. Rest your soul)


I almost forgot about Red, I was just getting to know her before the accident. I also vaguely remember her being trans. She was more the voice of reason than anger back then. I don't even remember her getting upset about the improper use of pronouns. She was a proper role model.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> The mods were far more chill and interacted with the members in threads more often rather than just swooping in to administer punishment from on high. Hats off to Minty and the work he did.
> 
> It was definitely less hug-boxy and cliquish. There weren't so many witch hunts for "wrong think" nor were they as tolerated. It was more just shoot the shit and have fun with one another. Trolling was an acceptable past time and the ones who had thicker skins were the ones that stuck around and became regulars while those that didn't bailed. Murry purry furry types would roll on up in here and be all "owo, cuddles you/notices your bulgy wulgey" and the regulars would be like, "wut" and point out how ridiculous they were. Didn't go well with many from the main site who viewed FaF as a toxic cesspool because it wasn't immediately accepting of furry cringe behavior. Dragoneer _hated_ FaF and there was often talk about plans to remove it floating around the forums. The hot topic buttons back then were more anti-religion. (not that that has changed much since, mind) God help you if you admitted to having Christian faith. Been on the wrong end of that dog pile several times. Trans stuff wasn't the divisive issue it is now and one of the more respected regular members was trans herself and often the voice of reason when threads got heated. (Miss you Red. Rest your soul)


Interesting, I mean, we could definitely would be better off with the less witch hunts part of that. But, as with many things, it seems to be just, well one extreme to another. Shame there wasn't a happy middle ground that was ever found. I have seen very many older FAF members give a lot of praise for RedSavage, though it seems unfortunately they ended up passing. Shame I never got to meet them, but they sounded very pleasant. Appreciate you pitching in too, you're a pretty level headed sort, though I must confess, I hadn't known you were such a longtime member, 2008. Damn son!


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## GarthTheWereWolf (Jan 25, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> I hadn't known you were such a longtime member, 2008. Damn son!


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 25, 2021)

FAF used to be incredibly toxic, and there was a time/set of mods that didn’t see that as a problem. It says something (nothing good) about the forum culture of years past that the user response to mass staff resignation was to overtly and blatantly act out. I worked hella hard to get to a place where users actually (usually) respected me saying “dial it back” without having to issue formal warnings.

Like... there’s a reason I didn’t touch anything but the Site Discussion area for a long-ass time.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Jan 25, 2021)

Oh the good ol days
Where I can make mature jokes (not adult) and don't get insta banned.

The people took the blue pill


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## Fallowfox (Jan 25, 2021)

I've been around since 2012- with a hiatus in 2017 when I spent much of the year working on Ships. 

I think I was 18 when I joined, and the site at that point was a very negative influence on my life. 
I had realised by the time I took that absence that I was being exposed to some horrible ideas; a user on the forum had tried to convince me that the Holocaust was a fabrication, for example. Another sent numerous messages to me trying to convince me of the inequality of human races.
However, it was only when I left the site for a year that I fully felt I was able to identify and resolve prejudices I had been introduced to- because a lot of things had snuck in 'under the radar' as it were. 

The site is a much nicer place now, although in these modern days of divisive social media, retaining positive online spaces has become a perennial struggle for any website.


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## JuniperW (Jan 25, 2021)

I may not be a veteran, although some of the stuff that went down last year got pretty chaotic. 
Especially when discussion of politics was allowed. 
Oh boy, the political forum was...something. 
Anyone who joined since October last year will never get to experience it, and for that, I'm quite grateful.


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## Attaman (Jan 25, 2021)

As somebody who has been here for a long time

Cons of early FAF:
+ There were orchestrated raids by forum users to raid other forums, and as said at times it was only a few steps shy of Encyclopedia Dramatica.
+ Forum User Cliques. People joke / “joke” about there being shadowy cabals of users who actively talk in private chat rooms to mock / badger users with Moderator participation. This actually happened on Old!FAF.
+ Toxicity has already been mentioned, multiple times, over multiple threads.
+ Pretty sure there was an attempt to derail the Oslo Shooting thread with a “Buy Bitcoin” spiel. Either that or the Ukraine invasion. One of the two.
+ It birthed Phoenixed. ‘Nough said.
+ It had a fanatical #GG crowd. ‘Nough said.
+ I was still an insufferable prat here, just of a different sort.

Pros of early FAF:
+ Had Deo, FayV, Vex Werewolf, and a couple others as active members. Some users may consider this an irredeemable Con.
+ Mods. The forum had more than 2-3 active. There was no 2017-2019 stretch where most of the moderation was a single user.
+ I got the fuck out in 2013-2014ish, so avoided the worst of the #GG / proto-Phoenixed stuff.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 25, 2021)

I just remembered one of the staff members on furaffinity in the 'old days', was a 15 year old boy. 

_A 15 year old boy. _

I met him after he had turned 18 and gone to University, because we went with another former user to get some drinks at a bar.


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## TrishaCat (Jan 25, 2021)

I'm 2013 so not *that* old but
FAF used to be a lot edgier and people used to be a lot meaner
I did feel like there was more comradery amongst some posters and in that regard seeing certain familiar faces was a really pleasant experience, but people did a lot to harass anyone outside of the norm back then.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Jan 25, 2021)

I miss MassonOtter. He was really nice.


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## Yakamaru (Jan 25, 2021)

I've been around since early 2016. Do I count as a veteran?


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## Simo (Jan 25, 2021)

I think I first peeked in around 2010, but wasn't really active. Instead, I posted on a forum called Furry to Furry, which I found a lot more open/creative...and which was also had an 18+ aspect, which made it a lot more fun. It was also the best site to find a good, in depth RP.

What was nice in those days is that there were a number of very busy forums. You had a lot more choice, that way. People seemed to be more prone to be social, and to type more than just a few words at that time. Maybe the biggest change I've seen is the drift away from forums, and to Discord, Telegram, &c., in which it's more and more common to just kind of aimlessly scroll past one word replies, and stickers, while wondering why you're bothering.

That said...I can't say I miss the earlier, meaner days of this forum, so much as I miss forums generally.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> There weren't so many witch hunts for "wrong think" nor were they as tolerated.


Ooh, sounds like a massive improvement! Wonder why they were allowed to become prevalent in the first place? Do people really think these things are fine? They are overwhelmingly the #1 cause of toxicity in these forums these days.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Ooh, sounds like a massive improvement! Wonder why they were allowed to become prevalent in the first place? Do people really think these things are fine? They are overwhelmingly the #1 cause of toxicity in these forums these days.


For me, it was that ordeal with the drama being dragged into the vent thread left a real sour taste in mouth, personally speaking. Pretty inconsiderate to those who were in need of real help. Irritated me enough that I still feel pretty bitter about it.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut,  no sense in dwelling on the negative like that I suppose. It's easy to look at the past and wax poetically about it, to an extent.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> For me, it was that ordeal with the drama being dragged into the vent thread left a real sour taste in mouth, personally speaking. Pretty inconsiderate to those who were in need of real help. Irritated me enough that I still feel pretty bitter about it.
> 
> Buuuuuuuuuuuut,  no sense in dwelling on the negative like that I suppose. It's easy to look at the past and wax poetically about it, to an extent.


Are you talking about the stuff that happened recently? If so, then I think there are way worse things going on in this site than 5 relatively short posts in the vent section, several of which were pretty much venting themselves. One person's problems don't invalidate another's.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 25, 2021)

Nexus Cabler said:


> I miss MassonOtter. He was really nice.


I've seen him around Telegram. Maybe poke him there?


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Are you talking about the stuff that happened recently? If so, then I think there are way worse things going on in this site than 5 relatively short posts in the vent section, several of which were pretty much venting themselves. One person's problems don't invalidate another's.


I tried to ignore most of the drama it stemmed from so I could just not be as well informed, though I'd think it'd have been awful if the vent thread would been shut down over that. Keep the drama relegated to it's origin at least, sucks they had to see all of that. Just my take.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> I tried to ignore most of the drama it stemmed from, though I'd think it'd have been awful if the vent thread would been shut down over that. Keep the drama relegated to it's origin at least. Just my take.


I personally do try to mind that and keep it to the minimum, however when I do 'take drama outside', it's pretty much as a way to vent myself.
I have my own limits, and my own needs to vent.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

contemplationistwolf said:


> I personally do try to mind that and keep it to the minimum, however when I do 'take drama outside', it's pretty much as a way to vent myself.
> I have my own limits, and my own needs to vent.


You're fine, my complaint is not directly aimed at you, it's just a general thing.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> You're fine, my complaint is not directly aimed at you, it's just a general thing.


Thanks! I guess I care about your opinion enough to worry if you were aiming it at me.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Thanks! I guess I care about your opinion enough to worry if you were aiming it at me.


Nah, I wouldn't do that to ya, you're a friend! INB4 that statement somehow becomes drama


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## Yakamaru (Jan 25, 2021)

Why does Hammerfall's "Heeding the Call" play in my head whenever I read this thread title?


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

JuniperW said:


> I may not be a veteran, although some of the stuff that went down last year got pretty chaotic.
> Especially when discussion of politics was allowed.
> Oh boy, the political forum was...something.
> Anyone who joined since October last year will never get to experience it, and for that, I'm quite grateful.


I was there on FAF long enough to see the creation of it and participate in it. As Simo puts it, it was like a forum diaper, the toxicity of FAF for a long while was held in within the politics sections. The insults were certainly different, but the attempt at destroying somebody's character didn't change much. Politics can often reflect very deeply upon a person's core values. I suppose in some aspect it's doubtless things get so personal.
The politics section is gone, but I think the grudges and animosities brought from the conflicts there still fester and manifest fairly often.
You'll see subtle and not so subtle reminders of that across the forum, in places you wouldn't even expect it.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> FAF used to be incredibly toxic, and there was a time/set of mods that didn’t see that as a problem. It says something (nothing good) about the forum culture of years past that the user response to mass staff resignation was to overtly and blatantly act out. I worked hella hard to get to a place where users actually (usually) respected me saying “dial it back” without having to issue formal warnings.
> 
> Like... there’s a reason I didn’t touch anything but the Site Discussion area for a long-ass time.


So, kind of like refereeing or politely guiding the conversations away from spiraling into flaming. Do you feel the method of personal integration with the conversation and acting as a mediator/referee was what changed the forum culture so drastically? It seems like a good middle of the road approach that kept all sides in happy coexistence. It's probably how I'd prefer how mods go about keeping the peace too, if I were to really think on it.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 25, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> So, kind of like refereeing or politely guiding the conversations away from spiraling into flaming. Do you feel the method of personal integration with the conversation and acting as a mediator/referee was what changed the forum culture so drastically? It seems like a good middle of the road approach that kept all sides in happy coexistence. It's probably how I'd prefer how mods go about keeping the peace too, if I were to really think on it.


The shift in the forum culture started before I became an active forum mod, with decreased tolerance for antisocial behavior. It dipped to pretty awful during the mass resignations, may have been tetchy for a while after (I honestly don’t clearly recall), saw another type of shift as some users left for Phoenixed, and eventually settled into... something almost civil. 

I don’t think there’s a clear “which is better;” some deserved bans were significantly later in coming because I chose to give people one free pass on certain types of offenses. Some situations never devolved to where anyone needed to be infracted because the signs were there and someone stepped in to say “please don’t.” People weren’t always _happy_ with being told to drop certain language, topics, or attitudes. There were, as I recall, a few times where I had to make good on “if y’all don’t stop I will have to lock the thread” or “you need to knock it off or you won’t be able to post in this thread anymore.”

The big advantage of gentle-approach moderation is, IMO, in addressing situations that are not quite crossing a line but still flirting with rules violations or just... rude. But the same exact type of “can we please not?” posts in general tend to get a much more hostile response these days than they used to _regardless_ of the source.

I’m frankly concerned seeing people waxing nostalgic about FAF as it used to be back before I was staff/in my earlier days as mainsite staff.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> But the same exact type of “can we please not?” posts in general tend to get a much more hostile response these days than they used to _regardless_ of the source.


Because, they are not always adequate. Sometimes it even devolves down to people (who don't run the place) forcing what amounts to little more than personal preferences down other's throats. Other times it's done in an incredibly one-sided manner, giving a pass to utterly slimy and malicious behavior from one side, while policing the pettiest of things from the other side.



> and eventually settled into... something almost civil.


Bwahahaha, what a joke! It was a toxic environment with a thin veneer of politeness. Blatant rule-breaking wasn't even addressed if the perpetrator had favor with the mods.


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## Balskarr (Jan 25, 2021)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Because, they are not always adequate. Sometimes it even devolves down to people (who don't run the place) forcing what amounts to little more than personal preferences down other's throats. Other times it's done in an incredibly one-sided manner, giving a pass to utterly slimy and malicious behavior from one side, while policing the pettiest of things from the other side.
> 
> 
> Bwahahaha, what a joke! It was an environment of narcissism and sociopathy with a thin veneer of politeness. Blatant rule-breaking wasn't even addressed if the perpetrator had favor with the mods.


I don't like the way they behave nor the way these forums were last year any more than you do but you need to calm down. It's going be hard for anyone to sympathise if you're this aggressive.

*Sigh*

As for me? Can hardly say I'm a veteran. It's been... Three years?

Can you believe I came to this site first and foremost for roleplay of all things? The well has kind of dried up there for me and now I mostly just lurk. Say something here, a little bit more over there. I say little and see everything.

I'm personally optimistic about the future of these forums under the staff we have now. I had very little good to say about our previous lone moderator and so I'm glad to have more likeable faces wielding the banhammer.

I should put a TL;DR on this, huh? Ahem.

TL;DR: Came for the roleplay, stayed for the dumpster fires.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Balskarr said:


> I don't like the way they behave nor the way these forums were last year any more than you do but you need to calm down. It's going be hard for anyone to sympathise if you're this aggressive.


I'm sorry to hear. It might be a bit aggressive behavior, but it's also honest behavior as I do feel somewhat strongly about the shit that happened.
Sorry if it feels a bit uncomfortable to some, but on the other hand, I think it can help with getting the points across.
If it helps alleviate your concerns a bit: I do try to moderate it, and I do it reactively rather than proactively. Definitely don't want a sustainably aggressive/hostile environment, but bullshit does put me in an aggressive mood. I'll assure you though, I think things over a lot, so I don't let myself express said aggression that easily. When I do it, there's a good reason.

Edit: But eh, perhaps I should moderate it even more ...



Balskarr said:


> As for me? Can hardly say I'm a veteran. It's been... Three years?
> 
> Can you believe I came to this site first and foremost for roleplay of all things? The well has kind of dried up there for me and now I mostly just lurk. Say something here, a little bit more over there. I say little and see everything.
> 
> ...


Heh, glad you got to do your roleplay, and glad you feel optimistic! I've been here for only 1 year and 2 months. I came here to explore the furry and gay sides of myself as I've been completely closeted about both IRL. I've mostly done that by just interacting with people from similar circumstances.

So, for me, I'd say it has been about personal exploration.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> I've been around since 2012- with a hiatus in 2017 when I spent much of the year working on Ships.
> 
> I think I was 18 when I joined, and the site at that point was a very negative influence on my life.
> I had realised by the time I took that absence that I was being exposed to some horrible ideas; a user on the forum had tried to convince me that the Holocaust was a fabrication, for example. Another sent numerous messages to me trying to convince me of the inequality of human races.
> ...


Hmm, it sounds like you were still a bit impressionable then, no doubt due to the age in which you joined. I can see how that combined with the laxness could be pretty dangerous.
Surprises me to hear how different you were back then. Though, the fact you were able to grow from it is commendable. I've always tended to view mistakes as opportunities to be better and I've found framing missteps in that manner to be very beneficial in that way. Well, so long as there is a conscious effort to both realize the mistake and deduce how to avoid it next time.


----------



## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

Simo said:


> I think I first peeked in around 2010, but wasn't really active. Instead, I posted on a forum called Furry to Furry, which I found a lot more open/creative...and which was also had an 18+ aspect, which made it a lot more fun. It was also the best site to find a good, in depth RP.
> 
> What was nice in those days is that there were a number of very busy forums. You had a lot more choice, that way. People seemed to be more prone to be social, and to type more than just a few words at that time. Maybe the biggest change I've seen is the drift away from forums, and to Discord, Telegram, &c., in which it's more and more common to just kind of aimlessly scroll past one word replies, and stickers, while wondering why you're bothering.
> 
> That said...I can't say I miss the earlier, meaner days of this forum, so much as I miss forums generally.


I tend to feel the same, I really enjoy forums, since by design it's intended to accommodate more thoughtful replies. For what it's worth I'm glad you stuck around. You've consistently been one of the most thoughtful and kind furs I've come across on the site, you always tend to look on the bright side, so it's hard not to appreciate. Comparatively I can probably seem a little grouchy or catty, heh. I'm far too stubborn to stop now though!


----------



## Attaman (Jan 25, 2021)

Since some people seem to doubt how dire Old!FAF could have been, let me put it this way:

First, I invite people to consider what it takes for such a wide swathe of users (and former moderators) to almost unanimously decide "Yeah, that place was toxic." Presuming @Telnac is fine with me pinging them in this regard, they were another voice willing to vocalize just as much re: Old FAF just last year in a thread that I _think_ might be deleted now but I definitely recall the two of us going "Yeah, it wasn't pretty" in. I'm pretty sure the last time me and Telnac agreed so decisively on a subject matter was when we argued that any definition of "Furry" that excludes robotic 'sonas is probably not a good or viable one.

Secondly... I invite people to consider the following. I was here in 2008-2014. Consider your thoughts on me. What you believe my posting habits are like. Whether this forum is better or worse off with my presence. Now, consider that we had (repeated) open debates in General Discussion related to Firearms, Israel, Religion, Misanthropy, contemporary US Politics, et al at that time. If that combination doesn't make your blood run cold on its own, throw this on for good measure: _I'm still posting here_. Not only that, the FAF Moderation of this era was almost literally a 1:1 transplant to the Phoenixed moderation (barring some exceptions). I think most people on FAF here who are familiar with me are also familiar with how the two of us get along. Consider, if you will, what the environment may have looked like wherein Phoenixed Moderation would look at me and my posting habits and go "Yeah, that's what we want to see on here".

Let me repeat that: What level of toxicity do you think it took for Phoenixed's staff to moderate / oversee threads, look at me posting in them, and go "Nothing to break out the staff toolkit over"? What level of toxicity do you think it took for them to preside as much... in an environment featuring threads on such lovely topics as "Israel and Firearm discussions in the late 00's / early 10's"? What level of toxicity do you think it took for me to look at myself in 2014, look at FAF, and go "Right, this is a bit much for me"?


----------



## contemplationistwolf (Jan 25, 2021)

Attaman said:


> Since some people seem to doubt how dire Old!FAF could have been, let me put it this way:
> 
> First, I invite people to consider what it takes for such a wide swathe of users (and former moderators) to almost unanimously decide "Yeah, that place was toxic." Presuming @Telnac is fine with me pinging them in this regard, they were another voice willing to vocalize just as much re: Old FAF just last year in a thread that I _think_ might be deleted now but I definitely recall the two of us going "Yeah, it wasn't pretty" in. I'm pretty sure the last time me and Telnac agreed so decisively on a subject matter was when we argued that any definition of "Furry" that excludes robotic 'sonas is probably not a good or viable one.
> 
> ...


I don't know what the 2008-2014 era was like, nor do I know what 2014-2018 was like. If the things I've heard are true, then it doesn't sound too great.

The environment of 2018-2020 I came into though was not good either. Definitely not high-standards. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason for these forums to return to any of the points in the past. Best to learn from all of it.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 25, 2021)

Balskarr said:


> I don't like the way they behave nor the way these forums were last year any more than you do but you need to calm down. It's going be hard for anyone to sympathise if you're this aggressive.
> 
> *Sigh*
> 
> ...



I joined a day after you, so you have a whole one day of experience over me!

I joined the site in a pretty sorry state, angsty and directionless, so rather unsurprisingly, my first post was to bitch about something.
I met many good friends as time went on though, and as my values and perspectives changed, the people I met stayed by me and helped me through some of my worst moments. My experiences with the site, at least for the first year or two were actually very uplifting and positive. Though, a lot of very welcoming discord groups introduced me to friends I'd have to this day just the same.

I hope this isn't taken too harshly, so I am going to try to be polite when I say this but.. I do prefer the current mod team to the one that came before. I tend to agree with that.
I'd definitely say the first year or two here was actually really positive, at least for me, that was until some of the more shit threads on this site popped up. You could easily just post a picture of monkeys tossing crap at each other and you'd get the general gist of how people acted on those threads. That's when the question of whether the positives of the site outweighing the negatives become kind of debatable. Of course, I am hardly a saint, said own my share of venomous/callous barbs. Was a bit of a douche sometimes, can't say I'm too proud of it, but what can you do?

The site is still a net positive for me though, all the frustrations aside.


----------



## Telnac (Jan 25, 2021)

Attaman said:


> Since some people seem to doubt how dire Old!FAF could have been, let me put it this way:
> 
> First, I invite people to consider what it takes for such a wide swathe of users (and former moderators) to almost unanimously decide "Yeah, that place was toxic." Presuming @Telnac is fine with me pinging them in this regard, they were another voice willing to vocalize just as much re: Old FAF just last year in a thread that I _think_ might be deleted now but I definitely recall the two of us going "Yeah, it wasn't pretty" in. I'm pretty sure the last time me and Telnac agreed so decisively on a subject matter was when we argued that any definition of "Furry" that excludes robotic 'sonas is probably not a good or viable one.
> 
> ...


I'm fine with the ping. Thanks, actually, since I didn't know this thread was here!

I joined back in 2008. There were some things that I liked about early FAF: lots of new friends, open discussion about just about any topic and great info on cons and furmeets that helped me meet and get to know local furries. Alas, as many furs have moved on to Telegram or Discord I don't think this place has quite the same level of activity.

Unfortunately the toxicity was definitely a thing, especially in the General Discussion subforum. As one of the Christians who was on the receiving end of a lot of that vitriol, that was rough. Its one of the reasons I was initially a proponent of the Politics and News subforum but unfortunately that just made the toxicity even worse. As much as I love spirited debate, people screaming past each other isn't debate. It's just a raging dumpster fire. 

Still, I managed to get past that and all the purges without getting my account banned so... here I still am. I must be a glutton for punishment.


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## Attaman (Jan 25, 2021)

Telnac said:


> Unfortunately the toxicity was definitely a thing, especially in the General Discussion subforum. As one of the Christians who was on the receiving end of a lot of that vitriol, that was rough. Its one of the reasons I was initially a proponent of the Politics and News subforum but unfortunately that just made the toxicity even worse.


To be fair, even at the peak of Politics and News we never hit the horrors that was the 2008-2014 treatment of religion on the forums. 

Now, still being fair, part of this was because we had a few Born-Again Christians on FAF at the time who wore infractions like badges of honor (which, thrown into an already toxic environment, was basically a recipe for disaster) and the whole "Everything goes in General Discussion" thing meant you had all the fun of various debates without any of the "Posts in this subforum will be under particular scrutiny" clause (plus, again, the already toxic environment). But I don't think we ever reached a point in Politics & News where things even came _comparable_ to the 2008-2014 handling of Religion, which...

In all honesty that's probably another mark for how horrifying the 2008-2014 Forums could be. "2018-2020 Politics Subforum: Still more civil and conductive for religious discussion than what came before." And, hell, once you break away from Abrahamic religions it wasn't even a General Discussion problem: Raise your hand if you're old enough to remember the bi-monthly threads utterly _mauling_ things like Therianthropy in Community Discussion.


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 25, 2021)

It really doesn't matter where you go in this fandom no place will ever be perfect, it's best to just suck it up and take what you can get. Here's an example from the newly created Anthrodex.







Should have seen it before comments got removed, it was hilarious.


Same shit, different day, different place...


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## Simo (Jan 25, 2021)

I had to refresh my memory, so I took a peek back: The earliest posts I could find from my Malamute days were in 2010...I pretty quickly recoiled in horror, and didn't post again till 2012, and then, took about 4 more years to post again after that. I'm trying to recall why I did in the first place; must have been boredom.

I recall friends on other sites consoling me about all the abusive sorts on FA at the time: "That place is a toxic cesspool", was pretty much the reputation the place had.

All in all, even if forums are not as busy as they used to be, the place has improved since then; it'd be hard to plumb those depths again.

Edit: Also: It's really strange, seeing posts you made 10 or 11 years ago....yikes


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## Telnac (Jan 26, 2021)

Attaman said:


> To be fair, even at the peak of Politics and News we never hit the horrors that was the 2008-2014 treatment of religion on the forums.
> 
> Now, still being fair, part of this was because we had a few Born-Again Christians on FAF at the time who wore infractions like badges of honor (which, thrown into an already toxic environment, was basically a recipe for disaster) and the whole "Everything goes in General Discussion" thing meant you had all the fun of various debates without any of the "Posts in this subforum will be under particular scrutiny" clause (plus, again, the already toxic environment). But I don't think we ever reached a point in Politics & News where things even came _comparable_ to the 2008-2014 handling of Religion, which...
> 
> In all honesty that's probably another mark for how horrifying the 2008-2014 Forums could be. "2018-2020 Politics Subforum: Still more civil and conductive for religious discussion than what came before." And, hell, once you break away from Abrahamic religions it wasn't even a General Discussion problem: Raise your hand if you're old enough to remember the bi-monthly threads utterly _mauling_ things like Therianthropy in Community Discussion.


Maybe I have a thicker skin with regard to attacks against my faith than I do for political debates but I thought the P&N subforum was more toxic. No matter tho. I think we can agree to disagree on which era of FAF was more toxic and agree that toxicity in general is bad and that ppl shouldn't be assholes.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 26, 2021)

Telnac said:


> Maybe I have a thicker skin with regard to attacks against my faith than I do for political debates but I thought the P&N subforum was more toxic. No matter tho. I think we can agree to disagree on which era of FAF was more toxic and agree that toxicity in general is bad and that ppl shouldn't be assholes.


The fact that it could go from a civil discourse to 'you're literally a born again Nazi,' at the drop of a hat is legitimately disturbing. Especially with how much earnestness those sort of things were said. 

Politics man, just say no.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 26, 2021)

The mention of P&N actually brings me back. The NZ thread. That was a really dark topic. It's kind of odd how it sort of transformed into a discussion about the 2nd A. That thread was a roller coaster of highs and dismal lows. Everything from civil debate, shit flinging, shitposting, false bigotry accusations, actual bigots. That thread was something. Was also the debate I participated the most in, I didn't know I'd end up being so passionate about the eventual actual topic. I'm still not sure if I enjoyed the thread or hated it, the highs were just as common as the lows.

Really can't get too into specifics as it'd be political, but suffice to say, that's one of the threads that stick out the most when mentioning the P&N section. Other users might have different horror story tier threads.


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## Simo (Jan 26, 2021)

There was a lot of horrible behavior, even outside of P&N, even until very recently.

This thread comes to mind as an example, and also as an example of the poor moderation the site suffered from; it's almost hard to believe that certain members were not banned much earlier:

(Caution, this is a hard thread to read: but I post it as an example that there are, in fact, people with very bad intentions...and there are good reasons people here are wary of the alt right, and similarly fascist-leaning ideologies)



			https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/transgender-childrens-book.1648128/
		


...what might be more amazing to read are various threads that even went beyond this, and were zapped from existence. Looking back, it sends a shiver, thinking of the various far right efforts, to recruit vulnerable kids and others into their little circles of hate and self-pity.


----------



## Deleted member 127940 (Jan 26, 2021)

From what I can recall of the 2014 to 2015 period it was great and, to me, was unequivocally superior to its cotemporary milquetoast successor. Moderation was more relaxed (I absolutely cannot stand heavy-handed mod work), people were less artificial and substantially more authentic in how they presented themselves to other users, stereotypical furry behavior wasn't tolerated, and moral busybodies didn't really exist in force. You could openly criticize certain political ideologies or economic views without a horde of emotionally dysfunctional adults barreling down on you with baseless accusations of Nazism in tow.

A lot of people consider this current incarnation of FAF to be the better and improved version of its predecessor.

I'm not sure that I buy that.


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## contemplationistwolf (Jan 26, 2021)

Simo said:


> There was a lot of horrible behavior, even outside of P&N, even until very recently.
> 
> This thread comes to mind as an example, and also as an example of the poor moderation the site suffered from; it's almost hard to believe that certain members were not banned much earlier:
> 
> ...


Looks like one utter dumbass ruined a trans art thread and got piled, shredded and banned for it. Good riddance to the dumbass! The mods should have deleted the political discourse and re-opened the thread.

However, the fact that toxic dumbasses from the right ruined things in the old days doesn't mean that toxic dumbasses from the left should be allowed to ruin things these days. We don't need witch-hunts against centrists, libertarians and mild conservatives on the false grounds of "fighting fascist ideologies", by people too dumb to be able to actually identify said ideologies!

(PS: the guy doesn't seem fascist or alt-right, he does seem like a transphobe though, and like an utter moron. He doesn't seem to be trying to recruit anyone. The left-wingers on that thread seem to be able to conduct themselves way better than a lot of the left-wingers I myself have been running into)

Edit: The comic itself is pretty wholesome


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 26, 2021)

contemplationistwolf said:


> Bwahahaha, what a joke! It was an environment of narcissism and sociopathy with a thin veneer of politeness. Blatant rule-breaking wasn't even addressed if the perpetrator had favor with the mods.


So what was your previous forum account, given that you feel the need to weigh in here? I was primarily referring to when I was still on staff, and I resigned in late 2017, two years before you registered this account. I can’t recall a user with your attitude around then, but I could have just forgotten.

Also, please stop throwing personality disorders around. I’m presuming you’re not a psychologist, and even if you were, last I checked it was unethical to attempt to diagnose people whom you’re just bickering with on an online forum.



Attaman said:


> And, hell, once you break away from Abrahamic religions it wasn't even a General Discussion problem: Raise your hand if you're old enough to remember the bi-monthly threads utterly _mauling_ things like Therianthropy in Community Discussion.


While I can’t remember that specifically, I do recall there was a pretty... visceral reaction from a lot of members back when  if some new user stumbled in and _dared_ broach a remotely sexual topic. Full-on dogpile roast, trying to drive out the offender with torches and pitchforks.

And god forbid you post something in Rants & Raves that the “core” membership took exception to. That subforum was an even worse idea than News & Politics. (Well, maybe not worse _idea_, but the execution was bad enough that I never want to see such a subforum back, and I cringed inwardly when the vent thread was created.)


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## Fallowfox (Jan 26, 2021)

ASTA said:


> From what I can recall of the 2014 to 2015 period it was great and, to me, was unequivocally superior to its cotemporary milquetoast successor. Moderation was more relaxed (I absolutely cannot stand heavy-handed mod work), people were less artificial and substantially more authentic in how they presented themselves to other users, stereotypical furry behavior wasn't tolerated, and moral busybodies didn't really exist in force. You could openly criticize certain political ideologies or economic views without a horde of emotionally dysfunctional adults barreling down on you with baseless accusations of Nazism in tow.
> 
> A lot of people consider this current incarnation of FAF to be the better and improved version of its predecessor.
> 
> I'm not sure that I buy that.



Your account was made in 2019, so what was the identity of the account you used in 2015?

I remember that in 2014-15 the staff included a 15 year old boy, and the forum became so chaotic that it was actually shut down for months and a huge number of users were permanently banned- which was what resulted in the 'phoenixed forums' being made. 

It's difficult to understand how anybody views that as superior.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 26, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> I remember that in 2014-15 the staff included a 15 year old boy, and the forum became so chaotic that it was actually shut down for months and a huge number of users were permanently banned- which was what resulted in the 'phoenixed forums' being made.


Regardless of how appropriate/not you feel that it was to include a minor on staff, I don’t think it’s fair to bring him up without noting that prior to the events that caused him to be removed from his position, he was not a _bad_ moderator from what I saw. I was fond of him (admittedly much in the sense of “as a person who was a fellow member of staff,” as I wasn’t ready active on forums at the time, and did no real forum moderation until after his generation of mods left) and was pretty gutted by the way he turned around in the end.

The chaos that led to the forum shutdown was initiated after he was already gone, as a petty reaction to the mass staff resignation (which was misrepresented by the resigning parties). It was part of the same chain of events, but he had little to nothing to do with it. The forum host at the time held more blame than he did.


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 26, 2021)

Ok Fallow you are going to need to gain some prospective here so I'm going to link you to this.





__





						Kalmor's journals — Weasyl
					






					www.weasyl.com


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## Fallowfox (Jan 26, 2021)

@Mr. Fox @quoting_mungo 

I'm making no comment on his performance- what I'm saying is that expecting a 15 year old to moderate an adult community was not fair on the teenager themselves. 

My post was not intended to imply that the chaos was caused *by* him- that was simply another point to prompt people to reassess whether 2015 really was such a golden time.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 26, 2021)

Just read the journals, dude.

Beside, in my opinion Kalmor done a better job than most others on staff at the time despite his age.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jan 26, 2021)

Mr. Fox said:


> Just read the journals, dude.
> 
> Beside, in my opinion Kalmor done a better job than most others on staff at the time.



15 year old boy, Mr. Fox. 

However they perform, it is not reasonable for adults to expect a teenage boy to moderate a community where the moderator might be expected to manage aggressive adults, delete shock images and pornography etc.

It is the job of adults to protect children from those things, rather than the other way around.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 26, 2021)

As I mentioned, despite his age he done all of that. He was one of the most mature and articulate people on staff at the time, and that's saying a lot for a 15 year old boy in a sea of twenty-something-year-olds.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 26, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> @Mr. Fox @quoting_mungo
> 
> I'm making no comment on his performance- what I'm saying is that expecting a 15 year old to moderate an adult community was not fair on the teenager themselves.
> 
> My post was not intended to imply that the chaos was caused *by* him- that was simply another point to prompt people to reassess whether 2015 really was such a golden time.


Fair enough; if it was intended as “this was a questionable state of affairs” I can see where that’s coming from; it read as being a comment on the forum climate (as in “him being a minor negatively impacted the quality of moderation”) to me which I didn’t think was fair on him. And I’m saying this as someone who felt thoroughly betrayed by where things eventually went.


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## Fallowfox (Jan 26, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> Fair enough; if it was intended as “this was a questionable state of affairs” I can see where that’s coming from; it read as being a comment on the forum climate (as in “him being a minor negatively impacted the quality of moderation”) to me which I didn’t think was fair on him. And I’m saying this as someone who felt thoroughly betrayed by where things eventually went.



I would only say that one of the main points of moderation is to prevent minors from being confronted with abusive or adult content. 

If the staff members who had put Kalmor in this position were British, and Kalmor's parents had known about it, they would probably have been able to mount a successful prosecution on the grounds that adults were knowingly expecting their child to view obscene communications. 

I feel this kind of situation is what is eventually going to lead to online communications being curated and regulated a lot more intensively- because people having children today grew up with the internet, know its capacity to beam harmful content into bedrooms, and will not want this to happen to their own kids.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jan 26, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> Also, please stop throwing personality disorders around. I’m presuming you’re not a psychologist, and even if you were, last I checked it was unethical to attempt to diagnose people whom you’re just bickering with on an online forum.


You know one or two things about that, you called me paranoid for calling out a certain infamous mod's blatant bias after he banned me for GETTING MOBBED


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 26, 2021)

Frank Gulotta said:


> You know one or two things about that, you called me paranoid for calling out a certain infamous mod's blatant bias after he banned me for GETTING MOBBED


As I recall I 1) apologized for that and acknowledged that I should have chosen different words, and 2) that was not my exact wording (though not necessarily in a manner that would be relevant). In case I am misremembering on the first point, I will again apologize and own that it was not an appropriate choice of words, regardless of how I feel about the merit of your complaints.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jan 26, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> As I recall I 1) apologized for that and acknowledged that I should have chosen different words, and 2) that was not my exact wording (though not necessarily in a manner that would be relevant). In case I am misremembering on the first point, I will again apologize and own that it was not an appropriate choice of words, regardless of how I feel about the merit of your complaints.


Ah; okay thanks


----------



## Deleted member 134556 (Jan 26, 2021)

That was nice to see. I'm happy the two of you settled that instead of fighting.

Thank you both.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 26, 2021)

Hopefully the rest of the outstanding forum grudges can be handled in the same manner so we can all hold hands and sing kumbayaa on weekends. Hell, if that happens, I don't discount winning the lottery next week either!


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## Deleted member 134556 (Jan 26, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Hopefully the rest of the outstanding forum grudges can be handled in the same manner so we can all hold hands and sing kumbayaa on weekends. Hell if that happens, I don't discount winning the lottery next week either. Haha!


It's definitely worth a try. It prevents derails, and can possibly end rivalry. There are people in the past I argued with a lot, who after just a few "I apologize" and "Thank you"'s, from the both of us, helped us get along better.

Not every disagreement is a personal attack, or made out of bad intent. This applies to criticism too even, as I've learned over time. It's hard to tell the emotions, and intentions behind words from your computer screen. I make the mistake often.


----------



## KimberVaile (Jan 26, 2021)

Nexus Cabler said:


> It's definitely worth a try. It prevents derails, and can possibly end rivalry. There are people in the past I argued with a lot, who after just a few "I apologize" and "Thank you"'s, from the both of us, helped us get along better.
> 
> Not every disagreement is a personal attack, or made out of bad intent. This applies to criticism too even. It's hard to tell the emotions, and intentions behind words from your computer screen. I make the mistake often.


That's fair, there's a couple people I'd owe some apology too, if I were to set aside my pride. Who knows, this might be the thread to pull everyone together. It's not terribly likely, but ey, I do agree, worth trying. I'll have to think on it.


----------



## Flamingo (Jan 26, 2021)

GarthTheWereWolf said:


> The mods were far more chill and interacted with the members in threads more often rather than just swooping in to administer punishment from on high. Hats off to Minty and the work he did.



Hey, I'm cool. I'm hip. I'm "with it."
Luffy and I generally do not interact a ton because time is finite. That, and I want to be as objective as possible so being buddies on the forums could create impressions of bias, etc.



Attaman said:


> + Mods. The forum had more than 2-3 active. There was no 2017-2019 stretch where most of the moderation was a single user.



Soon. Soonish at least. The forums are no longer their own team and are aligned underneath my corner of Code of Conduct enforcement. Well, that happened a while ago, but there will eventually be more moderators pushed this way.
Luffy and I are both team leaders and basically volunteered to add the forums to our responsibilities so that it wasn't a lawless wasteland in the meantime.



Simo said:


> suffered



Aw yeah, unintentional past tense compliment.


----------



## contemplationistwolf (Jan 26, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> So what was your previous forum account, given that you feel the need to weigh in here? I was primarily referring to when I was still on staff, and I resigned in late 2017, two years before you registered this account. I can’t recall a user with your attitude around then, but I could have just forgotten.


Yeah, I wasn't referring to that, sorry if it came across that way. I was mostly referring to what I saw since I started interacting more actively in public threads in early 2020. I wasn't around in your tenure and can't judge it.



quoting_mungo said:


> Also, please stop throwing personality disorders around. I’m presuming you’re not a psychologist, and even if you were, last I checked it was unethical to attempt to diagnose people whom you’re just bickering with on an online forum.


It was a response to the behavior thrown in the direction of me and those around me. If similar behavior doesn't arise again, then I have no more reason for aggression, passive or active, direct or indirect.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 26, 2021)

Flamingo said:


> Hey, I'm cool. I'm hip. I'm "with it."


----------



## Deleted member 82554 (Jan 26, 2021)

Wait, I have another one!


----------



## KimberVaile (Jan 26, 2021)

Am I out of touch?

No, it's the fandom that is wrong.

Sorry not sorry. Had to cause of the Simpsons memes

EDIT: Wasn't directed at anybody in particular btw


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## Keefur (Jan 26, 2021)

I got into the Fandom in 08.  The Fandom back then was a lot tighter, it seems to me. There were lots of trolls and media attacking us, and sometimes I felt like a pioneer in a circled wagon train surrounded by hostile Indians trying to pick us off, and if we didn't stay together as a group, we would have all perished.

This isn't a FAF story, but I am going to tell it to underline how paranoid Furries were back then.  It was at Furry Fiesta, I think it was 09, and the dance was going on.  In the hotel, were groups of college cheerleaders staying there for a competition in town that weekend.  About midnight, a large contingent of them tried to bull their way through the doors of the dance after they were stopped by con security for not being part of the con.  A scuffle ensued and to the amazement of all the Furries (the ones who knew about it as they tried to keep it on the down low), the hotel threw out ALL of the members of the cheerleading group that were staying in the hotel.  This happened about 2AM in the morning.  We were amazed that the hotel stood up for us.  This came at a time when the media and the public in general was not kind to Furries at all.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 26, 2021)

Keefur said:


> I got into the Fandom in 08.  The Fandom back then was a lot tighter, it seems to me. There were lots of trolls and media attacking us, and sometimes I felt like a pioneer in a circled wagon train surrounded by hostile Indians trying to pick us off, and if we didn't stay together as a group, we would have all perished.
> 
> This isn't a FAF story, but I am going to tell it to underline how paranoid Furries were back then.  It was at Furry Fiesta, I think it was 09, and the dance was going on.  In the hotel, were groups of college cheerleaders staying there for a competition in town that weekend.  About midnight, a large contingent of them tried to bull their way through the doors of the dance after they were stopped by con security for not being part of the con.  A scuffle ensued and to the amazement of all the Furries (the ones who knew about it as they tried to keep it on the down low), the hotel threw out ALL of the members of the cheerleading group that were staying in the hotel.  This happened about 2AM in the morning.  We were amazed that the hotel stood up for us.  This came at a time when the media and the public in general was not kind to Furries at all.


Yeah, I got that impression, from what I read of that old thread. The fandom generally was a little more cohesive and far less self serious, I do miss those aspects. While I wasn't around on the forums till much later, I joined FA the art site pretty early. A good deal of what you say rings real true.

In fact, I don't think there was one event that really encapsulated the fear of the media and defensiveness/protectiveness of the fandom's image more than the whole Tyra Banks fiasco. I remember that culminating with Chewfox almost becoming a sort of exile from the fandom. To this day I think Chewfox wasn't treated entirely fairly. I suppose I get why people were annoyed you know, Chewfox in some ways was representing the fandom and she didn't do the best at painting a good image of the fandom, but the punishment really didn't fit the crime. It's hard to even say she really did anything horribly wrong, not enough to deserve the comments about selling out the fandom I think. I mean, I know she didn't help the fandom image, but I also don't think she was acting with any sort of malice.

Also, hah, when it comes to cons I guess that's another think I sort of missed out on, some of those early cons seemed a lot more relatable I suppose. More closely knit and brotherly. Interesting story though, hah. If there is one positive thing I can say, it is that the general public has just kind of accepted furries for what they are and seem to care much less about what we get up to. well, it's more like a begrudging acceptance but hey, some progress is better than none!


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 26, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Also, hah, when it comes to cons I guess that's another think I sort of missed out on, some of those early cons seemed a lot more relatable I suppose. More closely knit and brotherly.


I’m sure they’re not 100% the same, but many smaller cons will still lean in the direction of being, well, small “intimate” (in the non-sexual sense!) events. Some long-standing cons also lean more that way than others; you can probably find cons with spirit you seek by listening to other people’s experiences from different ones.

Prior to NFC in early 2020 (just barely beating the Swedish COVID outbreak in time) I’d not been to a furry con in like... I think over a decade. So I’m way more rusty on cons than, say, boyfriend, who’s been doing at least 1-2 cons a year for ages.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Jan 26, 2021)

Fallowfox said:


> Your account was made in 2019, so what was the identity of the account you used in 2015?



Artillery Spam.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 27, 2021)

quoting_mungo said:


> I’m sure they’re not 100% the same, but many smaller cons will still lean in the direction of being, well, small “intimate” (in the non-sexual sense!) events. Some long-standing cons also lean more that way than others; you can probably find cons with spirit you seek by listening to other people’s experiences from different ones.
> 
> Prior to NFC in early 2020 (just barely beating the Swedish COVID outbreak in time) I’d not been to a furry con in like... I think over a decade. So I’m way more rusty on cons than, say, boyfriend, who’s been doing at least 1-2 cons a year for ages.


After Covid blows over (hopefully soon) I've been meaning to poke my head in a more local one.
So, I'll try and ask around see if I can't uncover a decent con. 

Appreciate the advice, thanks!


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## Keefur (Jan 27, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> Yeah, I got that impression, from what I read of that old thread. The fandom generally was a little more cohesive and far less self serious, I do miss those aspects. While I wasn't around on the forums till much later, I joined FA the art site pretty early. A good deal of what you say rings real true.
> 
> In fact, I don't think there was one event that really encapsulated the fear of the media and defensiveness/protectiveness of the fandom's image more than the whole Tyra Banks fiasco. I remember that culminating with Chewfox almost becoming a sort of exile from the fandom. To this day I think Chewfox wasn't treated entirely fairly. I suppose I get why people were annoyed you know, Chewfox in some ways was representing the fandom and she didn't do the best at painting a good image of the fandom, but the punishment really didn't fit the crime. It's hard to even say she really did anything horribly wrong, not enough to deserve the comments about selling out the fandom I think. I mean, I know she didn't help the fandom image, but I also don't think she was acting with any sort of malice.
> 
> Also, hah, when it comes to cons I guess that's another think I sort of missed out on, some of those early cons seemed a lot more relatable I suppose. More closely knit and brotherly. Interesting story though, hah. If there is one positive thing I can say, it is that the general public has just kind of accepted furries for what they are and seem to care much less about what we get up to. well, it's more like a begrudging acceptance but hey, some progress is better than none!


Well, I've gone to over 80 cons over the years.  I have run cons, staffed cons, been officers in cons, promoted cons, been a guest of honor on several occassions, and helped cons out almost since the moment I actually discovered the Fandom.  I really was Furry long before there was a Fandom, but that's another story.  Anyway, I have found that cons have become more and more cliquish and vindictive toward individuals over the years.  I could tell you stories that would curl your hair, but agreements, promises, and professionalism forbid, plus I try to never do anything to harm the Fandom.  It used to be that there was an unwritten law that Furries had each other's backs and protected each other.  Not so much so today.  The cancel culture mindset has also creeped into the Fandom as well.  That makes me very sad.


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## KimberVaile (Jan 27, 2021)

Keefur said:


> Well, I've gone to over 80 cons over the years.  I have run cons, staffed cons, been officers in cons, promoted cons, been a guest of honor on several occassions, and helped cons out almost since the moment I actually discovered the Fandom.  I really was Furry long before there was a Fandom, but that's another story.  Anyway, I have found that cons have become more and more cliquish and vindictive toward individuals over the years.  I could tell you stories that would curl your hair, but agreements, promises, and professionalism forbid, plus I try to never do anything to harm the Fandom.  It used to be that there was an unwritten law that Furries had each other's backs and protected each other.  Not so much so today.  The cancel culture mindset has also creeped into the Fandom as well.  That makes me very sad.


That's actually what I was afraid of, at least with larger cons. Cliques and social castes. I figured smaller cons would be a good way to avoid that. Just seeing how the drama plays out on this site, I couldn't image the drama that comes from a few thousand furries in the same space, so I'm not too optimistic about larger furry cons. I imagine a lot of the drama had the common denominators of big names and big egos, if I were to be cynical.



Keefur said:


> Not so much so today.  The cancel culture mindset has also creeped into the Fandom as well.  That makes me very sad.


Agreed, it's particularly dispiriting to see it only becoming more ingrained and extreme as time passes too.


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## Keefur (Jan 27, 2021)

KimberVaile said:


> That's actually what I was afraid of, at least with larger cons. Cliques and social castes. I figured smaller cons would be a good way to avoid that. Just seeing how the drama plays out on this site, I couldn't image the drama that comes from a few thousand furries in the same space, so I'm not too optimistic about larger furry cons. I imagine a lot of the drama had the common denominators of big names and big egos, if I were to be cynical.
> 
> 
> Agreed, it's particularly dispiriting to see it only becoming more ingrained and extreme as time passes too.


I think the problems with cliques is with the staff of some cons.  Most Furries are more into hanging with with friends and finding new ones at a con.  Staffers have actual power and carry grudges at cons.  Staffers have a tendency to become elitist and go off on little power trips instead of trying to make the con better.  I'm not saying ALL staffers do this.  Some staffers are genuinely dedicated to helping Furries in the Fandom.  Some staffers even go as far as being elitist towards other cons.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Jan 28, 2021)

My dumb newer self who missed out on those old times. Mostly because Id of enjoyed the somewhat looser rules, but then again it’s also nice to be able to have a chat with someone and not punching someone for spitting on my shoe.

I only got to experience the hell fire that was the politics threads, even then I couldn’t shitpost because no memes or shit posts allowed. We truly do live in a society.


Either way sounds like I’m glad I was likely unaware of furry stuff then.


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## Ziggy Schlacht (Jan 28, 2021)

One thing that's come up in this is a strong reminder of internet culture from the 2000's. I remember encyclopedia dramatica, 4Chan still being dark and mysterious, and many other forums where being banned for literally _no reason_ was kind of just expected. The culture commented about here was just internet culture back then. 

I've read a lot of "it was so much more free back then" - which is true if you were in the "in crowd" and knew all the unwritten rules. If you didn't, enjoy your ban. I doubt FAF was any different, that was just how the internet worked back then.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Jan 28, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> I've read a lot of "it was so much more free back then" - which is true if you were in the "in crowd" and knew all the unwritten rules. If you didn't, enjoy your ban. I doubt FAF was any different, that was just how the internet worked back then.


There were a lot of people making accounts just to light themselves on fire and run screaming into the forum hoping to hit something explosive.


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## quoting_mungo (Jan 28, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> One thing that's come up in this is a strong reminder of internet culture from the 2000's. I remember encyclopedia dramatica, 4Chan still being dark and mysterious, and many other forums where being banned for literally _no reason_ was kind of just expected. The culture commented about here was just internet culture back then.
> 
> I've read a lot of "it was so much more free back then" - which is true if you were in the "in crowd" and knew all the unwritten rules. If you didn't, enjoy your ban. I doubt FAF was any different, that was just how the internet worked back then.


I don’t think it’s fair to say “this was Internet culture in the 2000’s” with no qualifications. It was _one_ Internet culture, but the Internet has never been a monolith. I never liked the toxic bullshit, and I didn’t have much in the way of trouble to find places to interact with people. Sometimes, yes, communities changed down the road, and I didn’t always have the sense to cut and run in time. If that was the Internet you experienced in the 00’s, you either sought it out or had bad luck with finding communities.

It’s also up to a service to establish what it considers to be acceptable behavior from its userbase. If there are no efforts to curtail antisocial or abusive behavior, that reflects poorly on the service.


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## TyraWadman (Jan 28, 2021)

Ziggy Schlacht said:


> One thing that's come up in this is a strong reminder of internet culture from the 2000's. I remember encyclopedia dramatica, 4Chan still being dark and mysterious, and many other forums where being banned for literally _no reason_ was kind of just expected. The culture commented about here was just internet culture back then.
> 
> I've read a lot of "it was so much more free back then" - which is true if you were in the "in crowd" and knew all the unwritten rules. If you didn't, enjoy your ban. I doubt FAF was any different, that was just how the internet worked back then.



For real though. Every social group seemed to be this way. If you didn't prove your worth in some way to them, you were a nobody. 

No one just wanted to talk or discuss or have fun that didn't involve impeding on anothers'. From bbss to the hundreds of dreams on Furcadia to the many forums out there.

Others must be extremely lucky to not have encountered this every step of the way.


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