# We brag up a woman's hobby. She attacks us for it.



## Axleonder (Mar 25, 2020)

This is what happens when you do a hangout video, spelling the difference in the way society teats men and women for their hobbies. We reference this Victorian-era "dress-up" channel, priorattire—saying nothing but kind things to her—and she finds out about us, and attacks us, with her merry band of brigaders.

She just didn't like that we used the term "hobby" to describe her Victorian-era dress-up—which IT IS—her recreating Victorian upper-classes dresses by hand, which takes forever, to then walk in through modern down-town, is NO DIFFERENT to putting on a fursuit...or a Star Wars geek authentically recreating Darth Vader's mask and saber to use at a convention. And that's fine! ...But it's not fine for HER, though—She wants the pampered terms "full time job" and "business".     ...But also, it could just be that she didn't like that men she didn't approve of were talking about her.

It just shows how you as a male hobbyist are viewed as beneath and expected to shut up.

Original video that got attacked, for reference: (look at those brigaded downvotes)


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## PercyD (Mar 26, 2020)

*Squint*

It's just really weird that you are first referring to her as a woman? As if she's some kind of non-human being. And theres this weird vendetta about-
(1) correcting her on what she's doing (what does it matter if it's a hobby or her job... ???)
(2) clearly using her to make a distinction about men's hobbies for some weird reason
(3) acting as if (women) don't do fur suits or don't cosplay as Darth Vader ???

There are people who professionally cosplay and professional do fur suits as well so...

This argument is pretty flawed, null and void. I'm also pretty sure she's rebutting more because this really reeks of some kind of incel vendetta. I know I would. Leave this woman and her pretty victorian dresses be.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

PercyD said:


> It's just really weird that you are first referring to her as a woman? As if she's some kind of non-human being.


Nice making stuff up in your head.


PercyD said:


> And theres this weird vendetta about-
> (1) correcting her on what she's doing (what does it matter if it's a hobby or her job... ???)


She had a vendetta about us about using the term "hobby", and began the "correcting" on us.


PercyD said:


> (2) clearly using her to make a distinction about men's hobbies for some weird reason


She is respected for simply enjoying her hobby, free of harassment, when the same isn't for guys for their hobbies. So the distinction is real.


PercyD said:


> (3) acting as if (women) don't do fur suits or don't cosplay as Darth Vader ???


Again, women can enjoy this stuff free of harassment and disrespect (and have an army to deal with anything otherwise).


PercyD said:


> There are people who professionally cosplay and professional do fur suits as well so...


Again, this can be a hobby for women and it's free of harassment and disrespect.



PercyD said:


> This argument is pretty flawed, null and void. I'm also pretty sure she's rebutting more


She had nothing but to complain about the term "hobby". That's it. You can see this, her full comment is shown in the video.



PercyD said:


> Leave this woman and her pretty victorian dresses be.


You didn't listen to anything, period. She came to bother us, and brigade us.





PercyD said:


> because this really reeks of some kind of in*el vendetta. I know I would.


BTW, I am reporting you for using the hate-speech term "In*el" on me. Have fun with that.


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## Water Draco (Mar 26, 2020)

An individual's hobbies and interests are as unique as the individual. 

Each individual regardless of sex has a blend of both of what may be described/labeled by some as masculine and feminine traits.

Some hobbies may be considered as being more appealing to people with greater masculine traits or more appealing to people with greater feminine traits. 

As fare as I see it people that would attempt to belittle another person because they think that a person's interests are not appropriate for there sex, are cognitively immature and lack empathy.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Water Draco said:


> reply


Is this supposed to be agreeing with, or against what I posted?


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## Deleted member 132067 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> BTW, I am reporting you for using the hate-speech term "In*el" on me. Have fun with that.


Butthurt much? Poor Percy.

This whole "they" against "us" mentality isn't something you should strive towards, let alone use to overgeneralize in the name of an entire community. If you want to seriously discuss something, fine. But this looks like a glorified whining thread in which you block off any attempts of conversation with a seriously bitchy attitude.

Or in other words: There is no such thing as specifically manly furs being harassed and/or disrespected for having fun with their hobbies while women are free of this.
Now if you excuse me, I patiently await my "army to deal with anything otherwise" while I expect you, the "male hobbyist who is beneath me", to shut up.


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## ConorHyena (Mar 26, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> "army to deal with anything otherwise"



Am here, m'lady, who do I have to shoot?

Seriously though, OP - Excuse my wording, for I am usually a mild-mannered indivdual, but what the proverbial _fuck_ are you trying to achieve? 

I mean, other than garnering public attention or creating drama or inciting unrest or something, but really, jesus. What sort of bullshit is this?

I'm going to head back to actual, consequential matters other than youtubers bitching at each other.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 26, 2020)

The only points I'm taking away from this are that you don't consider art to be a legitimate source of income, and that you have a difficult time picking up on word play. It's "Prior Attire". Say it with me: "Prior. Attire.".


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Butthurt much? Poor Percy.


_"Butthurt at being called 'ni**er' much? Poor black person."_

This is you right now.


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> _"Butthurt at being called 'ni**er' much? Poor black person."_
> 
> This is you right now.



I might be missing a trick here, but it's not the same footing as someone being called a racial slur


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Jestwinged said:


> I might be missing a trick here, but it's not the same footing as someone being called a racial slur


Yes it is. It's used as a dehumanizing slur.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Or in other words: There is no such thing as specifically manly furs being harassed and/or disrespected for having fun with their hobbies while women are free of this.









Explain why no equivalent doodle gets made about women who pretend they are a 19th century aristocrat, the implication being they should not exist.


The rest of what you said is just fluff.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

ConorHyena said:


> I'm going to head back to actual, consequential matters other than youtubers bitching at each other.


Cool, that means you're not coming back here to waste space again, where you're not interested.

(and if you reply again, I'll know you're lying.)


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Would you have reacted the same if it was a man reacting that way to you and not a woman?


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## Deleted member 134556 (Mar 26, 2020)

This seems like another unnecessary thread


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> The only points I'm taking away from this are that you don't consider art to be a legitimate source of income, and that you have a difficult time picking up on word play. It's "Prior Attire". Say it with me: "Prior. Attire.".


You are wrong. We were happy that she could make money off of doing something she loves. We just didn't have hang-ups against calling it a hobby at the same time.
Also, nit-picker, I spelt it single-worded according to her Youtube handle. Do you enjoy being pointless?


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Jestwinged said:


> Would you have reacted the same if it was a man reacting that way to you and not a woman?


Yes.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You are wrong. We were happy that she could make money off of doing something she loves. We just didn't have hang-ups against calling it a hobby at the same time.
> Also, nit-picker, I spelt it single-worded according to her Youtube handle. Do you enjoy being pointless?


All this salt is bad for your health.


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Yes.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

[Nexus] said:


> This seems like another unnecessary thread


Yours seems like another unnecessary comment.


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## Deleted member 134556 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Yours seems like another unnecessary comment.


Too much salt. Stop. Your heart can’t handle it.


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## Water Draco (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Is this supposed to be agreeing with, or against what I posted?



Form what I watched of the video from the outset it was clear that effort was being made to establish a high level of bias in favour of the video of creator/s opinion/s.
As such this video has to my mind lost any sort validity in any form of discussion.


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

[Nexus] said:


> Too much salt. Stop. Your heart can’t handle it.



Share some of the salt with me, need it on my popcorn


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Water Draco said:


> Form what I watched of the video from the outset it was clear that effort was being made to establish a high level of bias in favour of the video of creator/s opinion/s.
> As such this video has to my mind lost any sort validity in any form of discussion.


You made no sense whatsoever. _"This video was made from a person's opinion and perspective, so therefore it is invalid."_ ...as if any video can be made any other way.

Also, you made no effort to read the situation for what it is. We were asking for equality, and this woman attacked us.


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## Water Draco (Mar 26, 2020)

It is time..


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Time to draw a line under this thread and allow it to sink deep down in to the bowels of the forum.

It is clear that there is no point in continuing commenting any further and it is time for all to show self restraint.


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Water Draco said:


> It is time..
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> ...



But what about the mean wamen?


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Water Draco said:


> stuff


The only clear thing is you have no argument, you just don't like the video, and wish it would go away.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

(BTW, reported Nexus and Justwinged for just wanting to be rude.)


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## Deleted member 132067 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Explain why no equivalent doodle gets made about women who pretend they are a 19th century aristocrat, the implication being they should not exist.
> 
> 
> The rest of what you said is just fluff.


Clearly you never googled the term "feminazi". And why should you, that would only devalue the argument you just made, wouldn't it?


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> (BTW, reported Nexus and Justwinged for just wanting to be rude.)



What did I do or say that was rude?    Not my fault you got so upset by a random woman online you made two videos and a forum topic about it.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Hmm.
Forgive me for not viewing the videos, but I have something I'd like to ask.

Is your reasoning for the situation being 'anti-male' warranted?
Is the person in question blatantly making statements that assert this or is it something you developed on your own?


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Clearly you never googled the term "feminazi". And why should you, that would only devalue the argument you just made, wouldn't it?


Yes and they lose all relevance when there's a million "this is a real feminist" cards. And they aren't even touching women for simply enjoying their stuff.


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## NuclearSlayer52 (Mar 26, 2020)

if you reverse image search trevors thumbnail on google and go to all sizes, the very bottom of the smaller pictures link has an interesting comment


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

So...basically, and correct me if I'm wrong here because there's a lot of gender based dick measuring in the comments --- this lady who makes awesome clothing for a living harassed furries for calling said clothing-making a hobby?

Well, the breakdown would be simple wouldn't it...? Do people pay her? If so, it's a job. If not, it's a hobby. It's the same as furry youtubers - yes, they're furries and yes fursuiting is their hobby, - but they get paid for the content that they create; not BECAUSE they're furries, but because they're furries that make something other people pay them for.

So, in a sense I'd understand why she'd be angry if she were compared to someone who was just walking around and not being paid for the art. Yet, if she was mad at being compared to a furry YouTuber who also gets paid for what they do...then I'd understand why the OP is angry, since it's pretty hypocritical. Female or male gender roles need not play a part.

Signed,
A woman


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> So...basically, and correct me if I'm wrong here because there's a lot of gender based dick measuring in the comments --- this lady who makes awesome clothing for a living harassed furries for calling said clothing-making a hobby?
> 
> Well, the breakdown would be simple wouldn't it...? Do people pay her? If so, it's a job. If not, it's a hobby. It's the same as furry youtubers - yes, they're furries and yes fursuiting is their hobby, - but they get paid for the content that they create; not BECAUSE they're furries, but because they're furries that make something other people pay them for.
> 
> ...


I don't see why people find 'hobby' and 'job' mutually exclusive.
My main hobby is building computers but I also build them to sell.

A hobby is something you do in your spare time that you enjoy. A job is a form of labor to make wage. 
Neither of these definitions is the antithesis of the other.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> Hmm.
> Forgive me for not viewing the videos, but I have something I'd like to ask.
> 
> Is your reasoning for the situation being 'anti-male' warranted?
> Is the person in question blatantly making statements that assert this or is it something you developed on your own?


So this person, priorattire, said specifically this:

_"well this is joyous! firstly - you have used my copyrighted material without permission - wham, copyright claim  has been filed.  secondly - it is full of inaccuracies.  the most basic - this is not my hobby, it is my full time job or my company.  We specialise in historical interpretation and manufacturing, mostly catering to educational /historical establishments.  You know, teaching history  to adults and children alike? preserving national heritage and such? and yes, my business is hugely affected by the current situation...  oh, not that it matters, but i am happily marries - and you can see my husband in several videos,  including the one of our wedding. do your research properly....."_


So first, this is a false claim of copyright violation, our use of the material is transformative commentary and fair use.
Second, her entire fuss is against the term "hobby". It's a load of hot air. There's no _"full of inaccuracies"_, she's just hammering on this one fuss. It's like she wants validation for being important, and she feels the need to brag up being married as well—which we never brought up as her being invalid otherwise.

Then there's her followers who came to brigade. They were coming in with terms like "maleoid" and also disparaging about me being a furry. They have since deleted all their comments, but I have screen-capped and saved them here: 



https://imgur.com/id%3Da%252FLgcxpxZ%3Btype%3Dalbum


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> I don't see why people find 'hobby' and 'job' mutually exclusive.
> My main hobby is building computers but I also build them to sell.



It's because if you're a business owner it can sound as if your beliddling ones chosen field of work. I don't see a problem with someone turning a hobby into a profitable career - if I ever became an author my hobby would also turn into my work, and that's fine. So long as people acknowledge that work is actually put in, and don't dismiss it as "just my hobby" or compare getting published by a good publishing company to...say, someone who writes and posts fanfiction on ff.net in their spare time.

Hobby isn't by itself an insult. It's just how it's presented in the context of what's being spoken about. This is understandable, no?



Toby_Morpheus said:


> A hobby is something you do in your spare time that you enjoy. A job is a form of labor to make wage.
> Neither of these definitions is the antithesis of the other.



I agree, generally speaking.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> So this person, priorattire, said specifically this:
> 
> _"well this is joyous! firstly - you have used my copyrighted material without permission - wham, copyright claim  has been filed.  secondly - it is full of inaccuracies.  the most basic - this is not my hobby, it is my full time job or my company.  We specialise in historical interpretation and manufacturing, mostly catering to educational /historical establishments.  You know, teaching history  to adults and children alike? preserving national heritage and such? and yes, my business is hugely affected by the current situation...  oh, not that it matters, but i am happily marries - and you can see my husband in several videos,  including the one of our wedding. do your research properly....."_
> 
> ...



So it wasn't her being anti-male, but her fans...? I don't think she should be punished or hounded for other people's actions. A youtuber can only control their audience so much, after all. I don't think she's explicitly trying to challenge or belittle your existence as a male. Is she sensitive? It seems like it based on what you've presented, but feminist? I doubt it. She's probably just defensive of the hobby that she likely spent years turning into her work. I vote you both lay off of each other lol.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> So this person, priorattire, said specifically this:
> 
> _"well this is joyous! firstly - you have used my copyrighted material without permission - wham, copyright claim  has been filed.  secondly - it is full of inaccuracies.  the most basic - this is not my hobby, it is my full time job or my company.  We specialise in historical interpretation and manufacturing, mostly catering to educational /historical establishments.  You know, teaching history  to adults and children alike? preserving national heritage and such? and yes, my business is hugely affected by the current situation...  oh, not that it matters, but i am happily marries - and you can see my husband in several videos,  including the one of our wedding. do your research properly....."_
> 
> ...


Uh huh.
I get that.

Where's the answer to my question, though?

EDIT: The imgur slideshow isn't loading for me.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> EDIT: The imgur slideshow isn't loading for me.



Yeah me neither I assumed it was because I was on a phone, though.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> Uh huh.
> I get that.
> 
> Where's the answer to my question, though?
> ...


You have to click the top-left "imgur" word, to take you there. (I technically just wanted it to be a link.)


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> It's because if you're a business owner it can sound as if your beliddling ones chosen field of work. I don't see a problem with someone turning a hobby into a profitable career - if I ever became an author my hobby would also turn into my work, and that's fine. So long as people acknowledge that work is actually put in, and don't dismiss it as "just my hobby" or compare getting published by a good publishing company to...say, someone who writes and posts fanfiction on ff.net in their spare time.
> 
> Hobby isn't by itself an insult. It's just how it's presented in the context of what's being spoken about. This is understandable, no?


Honestly sounds like a failing in personality to me.
Instead of getting offended at having their work be called a hobby, one could instead assert "It's not just a hobby, but my career" and be jovial in that fact.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> Honestly sounds like a failing in personality to me.
> Instead of getting offended at having their work be called a hobby, one could instead assert "It's not just a hobby, but my career" and be jovial in that fact.



That's true. 

I wasn't stating that it should be accepted for someone to throw a fit over it, I just meant that I could understand why someone would become irate. Especially if a person was actively trying to beliddle their career by calling it a hobby. 

Similar to how twitch streamers tend to just tell people they're "Entertainers" or "Preformers" when out in public. There's a sense of fear that comes along with doing something out of the norm, and if that person isn't the best at handling said insecurity, it can become a mess very quickly. 

That stated, we're all human. There's no use bullying someone just because they're a bit more prideful of their work, and they aren't psychologically ready to deal with a statement in the "perfect" manner. We've all made mistakes where we lost our cool when it wasn't necessary. Making a show out of it isn't exactly the high road. :/


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You have to click the top-left "imgur" word, to take you there. (I technically just wanted it to be a link.)


I skimmed through it.
Even though like attracts like in general, there's no mention of sex in your opponent's words. (The dressmaker)
You shouldn't commit to a guilt by association fallacy. Just because people standing up for her using sexist terminology doesn't make her a sexist herself.

It's disingenuous to put it off as such until she herself makes such assertions.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You have to click the top-left "imgur" word, to take you there. (I technically just wanted it to be a link.)



Hey man not sure if it's just me (probably is lol) but the link is on an endless loading loop and isn't showing any screenshots.

EDIT: based on the above I assume it's just me.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Hey man not sure if it's just me (probably is lol) but the link is on an endless loading loop and isn't showing any screenshots.
> 
> EDIT: based on the above I assume it's just me.


Here. Replace the * with a .
https://imgur*com/a/LgcxpxZ


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> Here. Replace the * with a .
> https://imgur*com/a/LgcxpxZ



Thank you!

Edit after reading: so I speed read the images given and outside of her first post, which is defensive but not outright offensive by technical standards, all I see are people either defending her to varying degrees (ranging from "you could've asked her to be apart of the video" to "[insert feminist notions here]" all the way over to the opposite spectrum where sayings such as "typical woman" and the like are thrown out.

In short, this entire comment section is a mess and both individuals are being childish as hell lol. However only one individual has explicitly shown plausible sexism based on how riled up they are about this whole ordeal, as well as the fact that they themselves haven't tried to stop their own audience from a mob mentality (ex. creating a video saying to lay off and forget about it). At this point I'd suggest contacting her privately and apologizing for the mess, privatizing your video, and moving on with your life. Putting so much energy into some random lady is just not worth your time, even if it does piss you off. If you continue raging on about it, then it will only make you (and fans) look bad.

I'm not saying you're video was in the wrong, as to be frank I haven't watched it, and I do believe in fair use. Yet it's clear that your posts and actions have been made out of emotion, just as hers have been, and if no one steps up first the mess will never be cleaned. It's just part of adulthood, man. :/


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## PercyD (Mar 26, 2020)

ClumsyWitch said:


> Butthurt much? Poor Percy.


Oh, don't worry, I'm fine. <3 <3

I did my soft yoga this morning and I am well hydrated.


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

So, this is the flame war? I don't see much fire...


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Is the forum going to deal with the 2nd person above me, for throwing a hateful dehumanizing remark?


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## PercyD (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Is the forum going to deal with the 2nd person above me, for throwing a hateful dehumanizing remark?


You should go outside, hun. 30 minutes of cardio.


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

PercyD said:


> You should go outside, hun. 30 minutes of cardio.


But, the government is being a wuss due to this coronavirus...


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## Deleted member 134556 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Is the forum going to deal with the 2nd person above me, for throwing a hateful dehumanizing remark?


She didn’t call you an incel. She implied that your argument has elements that are familiar to the arguments incels use.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

PercyD said:


> You should go outside, hun. 30 minutes of cardio.


You should be deal with from the forum. Like permanently.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> I skimmed through it.
> Even though like attracts like in general, there's no mention of sex in your opponent's words. (The dressmaker)
> You shouldn't commit to a guilt by association fallacy. Just because people standing up for her using sexist terminology doesn't make her a sexist herself.
> 
> It's disingenuous to put it off as such until she herself makes such assertions.


You are arguing a technicality, she still came in to be threatening. And yes, we can make generalizations about groups and be accurate.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You should be deal with from the forum. Like permanently.



My dude.
Was that a death threat? XD


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> we can make generalizations about groups and be accurate.


That's dangerous territory.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> My dude.
> Was that a death threat? XD


Absolutely not.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> That's dangerous territory.



Not only dangerous in a theoretical sense, but proven deadly in a historical sense - usually because whaddya know, those generalized accusations are often wrong.



Axleonder said:


> Absolutely not.



Cool. Just making sure. It sounded reaaaaaaal suspicious like. : P


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

So. 
Who wants BBQ?


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## NuclearSlayer52 (Mar 26, 2020)

i think the use of mentally ill as an insult puts you in the wrong 

also ill point out i dont trust that you werent the one to delete every comment against your opinion, especially since the comments on both videos had issues loading ("Comments are currently unavailable")


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Not only dangerous in a theoretical sense, but proven deadly in a historical sense - usually because whaddya know, those generalized accusations are often wrong.


The only time it's even remotely appropriate to group people under an umbrella is when said umbrella is backed by predetermined rules on behavior and belief.
And even then you're going to run into inaccuracies and outliers.


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Absolutely not.



Have you ever considered the real problem is not other people but how thin skinned you are?


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## Deathless (Mar 26, 2020)

m'lady


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Deathless said:


> View attachment 83416
> m'lady



Great now all I see is cyanide and happiness.



NuclearSlayer52 said:


> View attachment 83415
> 
> i think the use of mentally ill as an insult puts you in the wrong
> 
> also ill point out i dont trust that you werent the one to delete every comment against your opinion, especially since the comments on both videos had issues loading ("Comments are currently unavailable")



Ouch. Didn't even notice that. And here I am trying to be impartial...damnit Alex you're making this difficult. :/



Jestwinged said:


> Have you ever considered the real problem is not other people but how thin skinned you are?



Not to come across as "that guy" but agitating an already emotional individual more is likely not going to help him simmer down. Not that I'm against honesty and free speech and whatnot, I just, would rather things remain ("amusingly") civil before mods start cracking down on all of us, lol.

Edit: on second thought...I guess that effort isn't worth it. *eats popcorn* ignore me, kind sir and/or lady-fur.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> That's dangerous territory.


All people generalize. They have to in order to function efficiently around large demographics of people. So you're not saying anything.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> All people generalize. They have to in order to function efficiently around large demographics of people. So you're not saying anything.



There's a difference between a natural amount of a bias that can be proven wrong occasionally (such as acknowledging that one group might be known to be more educated than another - but also acknowledging that another group can reach similar intellectual standards under the right circumstances --- such as a kid in foster care vs a kid under in a loving home, etc.) and an insulting amount (such as, to put it bluntly, blatant racism or sexism or other such things born of distaste, disgust, or other forms of malice for no apparent reason - for example, a man disliking another man because of predetermined beliefs without set proof of said beliefs, but choosing to just believe it anyway and spread said false information to boot). I feel you're intelligent enough to be able to understand this key difference.

Note: edited for clarity purposes.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> All people generalize. They have to in order to function efficiently around large demographics of people. So you're not saying anything.


To the extent you're going about it is intellectually dishonest.
You're attributing the words some people say to totally different people.

Is there a standard for people to be fans of this dressmaker? Is it a doctrine that all people within said fandom must believe the same thing?

If not, I recommend reevaluating your position.


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

*roasts popcorn over the flame war*


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Ouch. Didn't even notice that. And here I am trying to be impartial...damnit Alex you're making this difficult. :/


Yes the wall that user made is mentally-ill. They wrote a book just to take up space.



Raever said:


> Not to come across as "that guy" but agitating an already emotional individual....


What, you mean "emotional individuals" like these "m'lady" and "roasts popcorn" meme spammers here? Because they are entirely emotional. Scrutinize them.


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Not to come across as "that guy" but agitating an already emotional individual more is likely not going to help him simmer down. Not that I'm against honesty and free speech and whatnot, I just, would rather things remain ("amusingly") civil before mods start cracking down on all of us, lol.



I know what you mean but I am actually not trying to agitate, yes I posted some lighthearted memes etc but I think this all actually boils down to OP needing to be a bit thicker skinned. Making two videos and a forum topic over a comment on the internet is pretty extreme, and then hes not listening to anyone getting offended by everything and accusing people of dehumanising him / calling for people to be banned.

I think that honestly the best advice is, as harsh as it might sound, is for OP to get a thicker skin and not get wound up over everything.

Okay maybe I was slightly agitating with the memes earlier...


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Yes the wall that user made is mentally-ill. They wrote a book just to take up space.
> 
> 
> What, you mean "emotional individuals" like these "m'lady" and "roasts popcorn" meme spammers here? Because they are entirely emotional. Scrutinize them.


Spam? I only roasted one bag of popcorn...


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

The Fluffy MC (president) said:


> Spam? I only roasted one bag of popcorn...


Go back and count.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> Yes the wall that user made is mentally-ill. They wrote a book just to take up space.



I mean I highly doubt someone who writes in an expressful and articulate manner would be ill in the way that you're probably thinking, and even if they were, using mental illness as an insult in a non-joking manner is kinda fucked, dude. 

And yes, I've called my friends retarded playfully if they messed up in a game or said something really dumb. I don't see the phrase by itself as malicious 100% of the time. Context is key and all that. This is the opinion of someone who had been clinically diagnosed with a few things, so I'm not just trying to insult a group that I'm not apart of to some degree. [disclaimer over]



Axleonder said:


> What, you mean "emotional individuals" like these "m'lady" and "roasts popcorn" meme spammers here? Because they are entirely emotional. Scrutinize them.



I mean that you're getting angry at them when you should be ignoring them and focusing on the problem at hand. They meme spam because you're making yourself look bad. If you remain logical and impartial, they will likely not mock you.


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> I mean I highly doubt someone who writes in an expressful and articulate manner would be ill in the way that you're probably thinking, and even if they were, using mental illness as an insult in a non-joking manner is kinda fucked, dude.
> 
> And yes, I've called my friends retarded playfully if they messed up in a game or said something really dumb. I don't see the phrase by itself as malicious 100% of the time. Context is key and all that. This is the opinion of someone who had been clinically diagnosed with a few things, so I'm not just trying to insult a group that I'm not apart of to some degree. [disclaimer over]
> 
> ...


Again. One post is not spam.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Jestwinged said:


> I know what you mean but I am actually not trying to agitate, yes I posted some lighthearted memes etc but I think this all actually boils down to OP needing to be a bit thicker skinned. Making two videos and a forum topic over a comment on the internet is pretty extreme, and then hes not listening to anyone getting offended by everything and accusing people of dehumanising him / calling for people to be banned.
> 
> I think that honestly the best advice is, as harsh as it might sound, is for OP to get a thicker skin and not get wound up over everything.
> 
> Okay maybe I was slightly agitating with the memes earlier...



Trust me, I getchya. Hence my edit.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

The Fluffy MC (president) said:


> Again. One post is not spam.



I wasn't talking about just one individual lol


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> I wasn't talking about just one individual lol


Its Ok. I'm just a bystander, watching the events unfold.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

At this point, I believe that both parties are handling this situation poorly.

Fair assessment?


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

I'm half tempted to email this lady and apologize on the behalf of the community. As I don't see the OP doing it...and I'd hate for whatever neutral opinion she might have had to be ruined. If I could draw I'd totes give her a lil Victorian era fanart. :/


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> At this point, I believe that both parties are handling this situation poorly.
> 
> Fair assessment?



Since I said similar a page or two back, yep. Absolutely fair. Also I think the OP left us. Maybe something one of us said got through...?


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Since I said similar a page or two back, yep. Absolutely fair. Also I think the OP left us. Maybe something one of us said got through...?


Heh, I'm a little slow on the upkeep.
I'm more of a hands on learner, if you know what I mean.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Toby_Morpheus said:


> Heh, I'm a little slow on the upkeep.



No worries, there was an avalanche of posts so anyone would've had a ball trying to keep up with this thread.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> No worries, there was an avalanche of posts so anyone would've had a ball trying to keep up with this thread.


Sure.
I have a habit of skipping comments to ensure my own thoughts aren't skewed subconsciously.
Getting answers directly from the person in question with no predisposed notion is my modus operandi ;3

Anyways. I don't want to derail this thread any longer, so I'll take my leave.
I believe my point was made.

Ta-ta for now.


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## Rayd (Mar 26, 2020)

hey just for future reference - you probably wouldn't be called things you don't like being called if you didn't act a certain way to encourage people to call you such.

oh, also, before you make a post about anything on the internet, if you can't handle the possibility of being disagreed with, don't make the post.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> This lady attacked our video, threatened a false copyright strike —when we said NO ill against her—has followers that flood in and disparage me for being a furry—...and you want to apologize to her... "on behalf of the community"...



If it was false and didn't effect you in any way, you should've just deleted the comment or ignored it. Since it wouldn't have made a difference right? Instead, you insulted her, provoked the comments, and caused both sides to be far more heated than necessary. If her fans were being so toxic that no normal comments could be seen, worst case scenario, you could have just disabled comments. :/

You weren't innocent in this.
Both of you acted childish.

The difference here is that you started it, and all furry youtubers have a responsibility to uphold regarding the community image due to how poorly represented we can be. I assume you understand that much. So excuse me for trying to provide a basic community service on your behalf.



> Redacted by staff



I'm not suggesting the apology is for the video, it's for all the comments you showed us on imgur. More than that, it's so that she can see that the community isn't all bad - and not in the name of any personal slight against you.

Man, I _really_ must be scum.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> I'm not suggesting the apology is for the video, it's for all the comments you showed us on imgur. More than that, it's so that she can see that the community isn't all bad - and not in the name of any personal slight against you.
> 
> Man, I _really_ must be scum.


This community is *worse than bad*. It is immensely self-loathing and submissive, when people attack it for just existing. These people, deserve to be attacked back. That's how it works. ...But no, you're calling *that* bad.

This community just deserves to roll over and die, frankly.


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## cowboi (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> This community is *worse than bad*. It is immensely self-loathing and submissive, when people attack it for just existing. These people, deserve to be attacked back.


Then you're just as bad as the people who are attacking you and are just confirming what they already say


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## KD142000 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> This community is *worse than bad*. It is immensely self-loathing and submissive, when people attack it for just existing. These people, deserve to be attacked back. That's how it works. ...But no, you're calling *that* bad.
> 
> This community just deserves to roll over and die, frankly.


Just give up, alright? This drama is totally unnecessary.

I don't see why this thread is here. What do you expect the community to do or say about this? Seriously, all it's doing is causing drama.
If you have a problem with what she said about your video or personally said to you or whatever, please go and address that. If she was out of line, she was out of line. If not, she's not.

And furthermore, no, we aren't worse than bad. Nor does this community deserve to roll over and die.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> This community is *worse than bad*.



That's like, your opinion man.



Axleonder said:


> It is immensely self-loathing and submissive,



Self-loathing tends to be a trait a lot of artists have, and a lot of furries tend to be artists so unfortunately it can go hand in hand sometimes, but there are a lot of awesome and confident furries out there too who really do amazing things for the community (Beauty of the Bass, Pocari roo, etc). So again, this is like, your opinion man lol.




Axleonder said:


> when people attack it for just existing. These people, deserve to be attacked back. That's how it works. ...But no, you're calling *that* bad.



If you consider one defensive comment made by a business owner an attack then I have no idea what to say. Maybe become a Yelp reviewer? 

Also, we learn as children that an eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Maybe try helping situations instead of hurting them more and you won't be so hurt about every little thing. Just a guess.



Axleonder said:


> This community just deserves to roll over and die, frankly.



You're always free to leave, my man.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

cowboi said:


> Then you're just as bad as the people who are attacking you and are just confirming what they already say


You think this matters. It doesn't. These people don't give a shit if you're "as bad as them". They just see you as weak if you do nothing. They might actually respect you if you actually are threatening to them. At least you'd be standing up for yourself, unlike as it is now.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> They might actually respect you if you actually are threatening to them. At least you'd be standing up for yourself, unlike as it is now.



Humans don't work like that.
Maybe apes, wild dogs, lions, etc. - but not humans. Respect comes from mutual understanding and effort, something you clearly lack. All a threat does for the human psyche is invoke fear and - eventually - rebellion. It isn't as effective as you'd like to believe.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Humans don't work like that.


_*Yes they do.*_


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## cowboi (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> _*Yes they do.*_


Evidence suggests they don't, considering how many people are refuting your actions on this thread alone, much less on YouTube


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> _*Yes they do.*_



Ceaser, Hitler, and many other authoritarians in history would prove you wrong. They were all backstabbed - in some cases literally. XD

Also I do apologize on one thing. I was wrong about apes, or more accurately certain types. As it's been scientifically proven that some monkeys gain the respect of their group by helping each other and performing tasks as "betas" - instead of becoming the big and bad "alphas". I hate using that lingo by the way - as it is grossly aged. 

Darwin may have been onto something after all.


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## KD142000 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You think this matters. It doesn't. These people don't give a shit if you're "as bad as them". They just see you as weak if you do nothing. They might actually respect you if you actually are threatening to them. At least you'd be standing up for yourself, unlike as it is now.


OK, first of all...I haven't watched your video or the one posted beneath it. So I will base this on what I'd normally say...

Nobody in the world cares about what hobby you have or don't have, regardless of what gender you are. It literally doesn't matter.
I couldn't care any less that she wears or makes Victorian era dresses. It doesn't bother me, nor does it interest me. Yes, it's nice she's being creative and doing her own thing.

Why are gender politics being brought into this all of a sudden? Why are you commenting about how 'men have this problem but women don't'?
So far as I can see, it's just someone reacting badly to a video you made and getting offended about the term 'hobby' being used. So where does the gender side of things come in?

This fandom should stand for tolerance and mutual respect, not crying about every little thing we possibly can. All it does is make the rest of us logical people look like trash. No wonder we get the royal piss taken out of us.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> This fandom should stand for tolerance and mutual respect, not crying about every little thing we possibly can. All it does is make the rest of us logical people look like trash. No wonder we get the royal piss taken out of us.



Probably goes to show that everyone in the thread disagreed with him, even the ones who tried to understand where he was coming from. This fandom *does *stand for (imo acceptable) tolerance and mutual respect, and perhaps that's what makes the OP upset. x3


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Probably goes to show that everyone in the thread disagreed with him, even the ones who tried to understand where he was coming from. This fandom *does *stand for (imo acceptable) tolerance and mutual respect, and perhaps that's what makes the OP upset. x3



Absolutely hits the nail on the head, he expected everyone to back him up / agree with him and can't accept the fact that no one will.   

OP* you* started all this by making comments / a video about someone else's video, got angry by her response, made a thread to try to make you feel like you were in the right and got even more mad when you didn't get that. If I were you I would ask for this thread to be deleted if possible, take a break and try to forget it happened, I doubt anyone will hold any grudges over it and will probably forget this thread existed a day after its gone.


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## KD142000 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jestwinged said:


> Absolutely hits the nail on the head, he expected everyone to back him up / agree with him and can't accept the fact that no one will.
> 
> OP* you* started all this by making comments / a video about someone else's video, got angry by her response, made a thread to try to make you feel like you were in the right and got even more mad when you didn't get that. If I were you I would ask for this thread to be deleted if possible, take a break and try to forget it happened, I doubt anyone will hold any grudges over it and will probably forget this thread existed a day after its gone.


It's kind of true everyone will forget...except for those outside the fandom who are hellbent on proving us to be malicious and baby-eating (or whatever crap they care to come up with) assholes who should be banned from the internet. That's what makes these episodes of drama so sad. It paints us all in a bad light, not just an OP.


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## Axleonder (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Ceaser, Hitler, and many other authoritarians in history would prove you wrong. They were all backstabbed - in some cases literally. XD


You are cherry-picking to avoid the fact that men who are seen as weak are treated with contempt.


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## KD142000 (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You are cherry-picking to avoid the fact that men who are seen as weak are treated with contempt.


No...that's not how it works. We don't live in Medieval England where, yes, it would work like that.
People will call you weak for anything they choose to, regardless of what bits you have between your legs.

Men don't get picked on more than women. In fact, I'd say it's pretty much even, these days.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 26, 2020)

KD142000 said:


> No...that's not how it works. We don't live in Medieval England where, yes, it would work like that.
> People will call you weak for anything they choose to, regardless of what bits you have between your legs.
> 
> Men don't get picked on more than women. In fact, I'd say it's pretty much even, these days.


Men get harassed more online, but don't view it as much of a problem.
www.theguardian.com: Higher proportion of men than women report online abuse in survey


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## FrostHeart (Mar 26, 2020)

What'd I miss? Is the flame war still on?


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## Jestwinged (Mar 26, 2020)




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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

Axleonder said:


> You are cherry-picking to avoid the fact that men who are seen as weak are treated with contempt.



No I'm not. I wasn't arguing about men, I was speaking about humans and why threat does not equate to respect. Your problem clearly lies in your discontent towards females, and your passion regarding your own gender. At the end of the day, you're not being logical, so I'll just let you continue making yourself look bad. Good day to you, sir.



The Fluffy MC (president) said:


> What'd I miss? Is the flame war still on?



More like a slow cooker with a broken plug but, sure?



KD142000 said:


> Men don't get picked on more than women. In fact, I'd say it's pretty much even, these days.



Men are definitely razzed more than women, but it's also natural for men to rough house like that out of friendship - whereas with women, we subtlety razz (and we're quite vicious to each other in those subtleties).

There is no right way to measure this though, since men and women behave differently towards each other. There are surveys, and some of them are good at showing these differences, but they aren't the end all be all in regards to the fact that the world is chaotic and not all seven point something billion individuals on earth are accounted for. Plus, cultural differences and stigmas exist too.

But this thread is getting ridiculous, are we really debating gender politics now?


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## KD142000 (Mar 26, 2020)

Raever said:


> Men are definitely razzed more than women, but it's also natural for men to rough house like that out of friendship - whereas with women, we subtlety razz (and we're quite vicious to each other in those subtleties).
> 
> There is no right way to measure this though, since men and women behave differently towards each other. There are surveys, and some of them are good at showing these differences, but they aren't the end all be all in regards to the fact that the world is chaotic and not all seven point something billion individuals on earth are accounted for. Plus, cultural differences and stigmas exist too.
> 
> But this thread is getting ridiculous, are we really debating gender politics now?


Correction: Men are razzled more than women online :3. Didn't know this before. Thanks for letting me know! Sorry about that.

But yeah, it's very ridiculous to debate gender politics. I can't see why it's relevant in this instance.


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## Raever (Mar 26, 2020)

More of a collective observation than a statistic. You're free to your own opinion on things being nigh equal. I hope to share that opinion one day, as an equalist myself. No use in wanting something (ie. Feminism) that not all people can benefit from. Imho It had it's place in the past, but that time is over.



KD142000 said:


> But yeah, it's very ridiculous to debate gender politics. I can't see why it's relevant in this instance.



Agreed. We're all fuzzbutts are we not?
On that note, I'm just gonna unwatch and go on my merry way lol.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Mar 26, 2020)

Locking this for review.


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