# Do you think FA could ever be a better community?



## Midnight Gear (Jun 3, 2014)

Right-ish now out of 36 posts;

~5 Could be considered sexual or fetish-related,

~1 is auction related,

~1 person is dumping multiple different ones at a time,

~6 are possible references and/or ref sheets,

~2 seem not furry related, (to me, and only if you don't count other fandoms.)

And the even _less _fortunate numbers,

~2 are fursuit content,

And ~4 are actually original content (in my eyes, that is.)

That's just when I started writing. If I kept counting all day, the numbers would be even more upsetting. How did our community get this way? It's a disaster.


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## Volkodav (Jun 3, 2014)

nope


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## Hewge (Jun 3, 2014)

Of course not!


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## Ironsoup (Jun 3, 2014)

Taking into consideration the sheer vastness of the user base and the probable demographics involved, I would have to retort that such a sustained upswing in content quality is statistically improbable.


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## dogit (Jun 3, 2014)

Well at least its active


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## Sar (Jun 3, 2014)

Maybe your expectations are too high of Furry communities?


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## Batty Krueger (Jun 3, 2014)

We all hate each other and we're sticken to it! *flips yall off*


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## Falafox (Jun 3, 2014)

You got high expectations man, this is a forum, an internet furry forum.

It could improve in many ways, but yeah, that's not happenin' buddy.


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## Volkodav (Jun 4, 2014)

I've been on FA since 2007 and haven't seen a single fucking bit of improvement. I like how one of the mods This'd my post, that just shows how far down the shitter pipe these sites are.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 4, 2014)

Wow you guys are such downers. Sure the site has some of what you might call 'unoriginal' content but there's a LOT of content, there's bound to be a lot of stuff you don't like.


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## kharonalpua (Jun 4, 2014)

Could it? Yes. Period. End of Discussion.

Not really. The question of "could" is an easy one -- it could be better, it could be worse. "Could" only asks about potential. It can veer into methodology discussions, but "could" is a weak word, much like telling people that they "should" do something, it will often be met with weak or apathetic response. Still, is it possible that FA could be a better site? I think it absolutely could be possible, but that it would require some changes in how things are done overall that do not seem likely to happen given my knowledge of how the site is currently run and maintained.

The first would be for the administration to take the whole site seriously. If they wanted to develop a community, they would need to behave like community organizers, not just as fans with a hobby, which is what I've collected, over the years, is their general attitude "we're just making a space where people can share art" is very different from "We want to make a hub for the furry community," because one of those requires work, and the other just requires laying stuff down. It's true that if you build it, they will come, and being one of the first on the scene made it easy for them to gain a userbase -- but the truth is, that stable inertia of lots of users won't make the site into a community. It just makes it a site with a lot of users.

Most of the rest flows out of the first. For years they've talked about users having folders. I am submitting work semi-regularly now, and I still don't see any option to sort my work into folders in any way other than "send to scraps." Right now, the only reference I can find in the AUP to folders at all is this line, from "Interpretations": 



> Different versions of the same submission are permitted, but only one copy of one version may appear in published folders.  Excessive numbers of variation submissions, published or not, are not permitted.



If they were taking the site truly seriously, folders would either have been completed ages ago or officially scrapped. If their goal were to make a community hub, they would implement things that make the site a better community place and less of a gallery. We would not see complaints of tickets left open for months at a time, because the people who are supposed to handle them would handle them. We would probably see less discussion about the separation of the Forums and the Gallery site, and more about how to encourage gallery artists and viewers to take part in the forums -- Seriously, the people who look at pics probably don't want to be "all alone" and left out from the forums, but they may not realize the forums exist, or may feel intimidated, or may just find it unnecessary with the site's current structure.

I'm definitely not going to propose that FA become a social network site. But it might be nice to have a "Feed" view that lets you see, in a sorted manner, people who have followed you, people you're following/watching, and even a thumbnail of the new image posts that have come up. It can seriously just be a feed without any interactivity except clicking links, or, if they want to build a community, it might be more like a social network's system, where you can reply directly from your feed page.

Could FA ever be a better community? Yes. But for that to happen, the site admins need to treat it seriously with the goal of making it a better community, not just making it a nicer site.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 4, 2014)

It really seems like the staff are simply not here anymore except to take care of basic maintenance. HOWEVER, it also seems like they are understaffed.

And also, since FA is using custom-built software it looks like, there is no real place they can go to for easy-to-install modifications or for support. They have to write everything in themselves. And all while keeping track of what they currently have. So yeah, they may not have delivered at all on a lot of features they say were going to be here, but let's also always keep in mind, that simply writing in the features here isn't as simple as 1-2-3. Add to that the fact that most programmers lead a busy life and then it becomes very understandable why the features haven't been delivered on.


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## thoron (Jun 4, 2014)

Hybrid Persona said:


> It really seems like the staff are simply not here anymore except to take care of basic maintenance. HOWEVER, it also seems like they are understaffed.



Its not even that its understaffed, its more that all of FA's administrators are volunteers who have a life outside the site. None of them are paid.


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## Grunnolf (Jun 4, 2014)

I would say you have very high expectations. I mean isn't the point of a forums to hang out and have fun? Talk to other people? if people want to talk about furry related things there are threads for that. I personally like coming on here just to talk amongst the community, socialize, make friends, and other things. if FAF was strict furry only things I am sure the active users would plummet because after a while talking about nothing but furry related things would get old. Do I love talking about furry things? You bet. Do I like talking about Furry things 24/7? No. its boring and tedious :3.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 4, 2014)

thoron said:


> Its not even that its understaffed, its more that all of FA's administrators are volunteers who have a life outside the site. None of them are paid.


Yes, I touched on this in my second paragraph


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## RTDragon (Jun 4, 2014)

You know you also have to remember this is not other art sites hybrid persona like DA. So the staff here volunteers and this is a niche site.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 4, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> You know you also have to remember this is not other art sites hybrid persona like DA. So the staff here volunteers and this is a niche site.





Hybrid Persona said:


> Yes, I touched on this in my second paragraph



lol


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## ferretsage (Jun 6, 2014)

"Is a machine inside the area of a circle capable of moving out of the circle?" 

YES.

"Is a machine inside the area of a circle capable of moving out of the circle when it thinks it must be programmed to always move to the center of that circle?"

NO.

Capable? YES. Perma-retarded? YES.

If you tacked *expectation* to go along with the inclusivity in furry fandom, you wouldn't have furry fandom anymore because most furries would react like sodium metal in water.


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## Lobar (Jun 7, 2014)

Dragoneer and Chase want the community here to be utterly banal.  Intelligent discourse here is something to be bulldozed and rebuilt on top of, because intelligent people tend to call them out on their incompetence and they hate that more than anything.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 7, 2014)

No. Dragoneer and company are in a state of what some may call, criminal complacence. They already run one of if not _the_ biggest dedicated furry site out there, and the past has shown no matter what they do this will not change. They can hire people who admit to doing certain things which I'm sure you're already aware of to their pets, they can get away with not adding basic functionality that has become standard literally everywhere else (Seriously it's been how long? Where the fuck are folders?), and they can do virtually anything and not have their throne be seriously challenged. 

Due to this atmosphere of incompetence and complete lack of giving two shits the community in general as garnered a prevailing sense of cynicism that everything here is terrible and that no one needs to give a shit about quality or anything outside of their fenced off lawn of an inner circle. As such FA has become basically furfag Detroit. Everyone recognizes it's a shithole, everyone here doesn't dare venture outside of their cliques because they just assume the worst, and no one cares to actually fix the problems that plague this place because it's seen as a lost cause anyways so why waste the time. 

In theory things could change for the better sure. But like actual Detroit don't hold your breath.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 9, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> (Seriously it's been how long? Where the fuck are folders?),.









>2010


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## Verin Asper (Jun 9, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> >2010



Oh boy, thats around when SoFurry added Folders....oh wait they did theirs in february also...


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 9, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> >2010


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 9, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> >2010



I have zero expectations yet I'm still disappointed. Impressive.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 9, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> I have zero expectations yet I'm still disappointed. Impressive.



More impressive is that you can continue to be let down *repeatedly*. You would think FA was bought by EA (sorry, I just watched their press conference).


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## Calemeyr (Jun 9, 2014)

As long as Dragoneer owns FA, it will continue to be on the decline. I worked for someone like 'neer once. The store went out of business from abysmal business and monetary practices. The boss was never around and the manager was the guy who kept the ship afloat as log as humanly possible. I feel that's what's happening with FA. If this Phoenix thing sinks, the site will start to freefall. Please prove me wrong.

I'm thinkig FA will be dead in five years (or less) unless someone else takes over or if Phoenix works.

*Dragoneer: if the Phoenix thing fails, sell the site. This is all on you to make a better impression about (and save) FA. If Phoenix succeeds, you got yourself a winner. *You can't rely on popufur donations forever.

This whole situation reminds me of Nintendo right now. The Wii U is FA and Iwata is Dragoneer. You love (?) both ventures, but you kick and scream at the president to patch that hole in the sinking ship. But there is hope. Phoenix better turn out to be Metroid Prime and not some dumb, heavy gamepad no one wants to use. The current site layout is pretty good despite some necessary lacking features. A complete overhaul of the design would be a pretty bad thing as everyone would have to adjust to eerything being different. And that would be a Phoenix failure in my book. More features would be your Metroid Prime.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 9, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> As long as Dragoneer owns FA, it will continue to be on the decline. I worked for someone like 'neer once. The store went out of business from abysmal business and monetary practices. The boss was never around and the manager was the guy who kept the ship afloat as log as humanly possible. I feel that's what's happening with FA. If this Phoenix thing sinks, the site will start to freefall. Please prove me wrong.
> 
> I'm thinkig FA will be dead in five years (or less) unless someone else takes over or if Phoenix works.
> 
> ...



FA won't die. FA has been inferior to virtually every other site for years and has still remained by and far the most popular site despite all their attempts to fuck that up. I can't see their well drying up as quite frankly they've demonstrated that no matter incompetent they are, it'll miraculously pull through.


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## Calemeyr (Jun 9, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> FA won't die. FA has been inferior to virtually every other site for years and has still remained by and far the most popular site despite all their attempts to fuck that up. I can't see their well drying up as quite frankly they've demonstrated that no matter incompetent they are, it'll miraculously pull through.


Then they really are like Nintendo. They keep on failing and failing hard, but that money keeps on flowing. For ninty, it's cash reserves. For FA, it's popufur donations.


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## Verin Asper (Jun 10, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> Then they really are like Nintendo. They keep on failing and failing hard, but that money keeps on flowing. For ninty, it's cash reserves. For FA, it's popufur donations.


Nintendo now...eventually maybe one day they'll end up like Sega :V


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## TheArchiver (Jun 10, 2014)

^Never will happen (though it should).



Calemeyr said:


> Then they really are like Nintendo. They keep on failing and failing hard, but that money keeps on flowing. For ninty, it's cash reserves. For FA, it's popufur donations.



Took the words right out of my mouth. Fanboys taking the shaft from their gods and being the final support rather than demanding change more openly.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 10, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> FA won't die. FA has been inferior to virtually every other site for years and has still remained by and far the most popular site despite all their attempts to fuck that up. I can't see their well drying up as quite frankly they've demonstrated that no matter incompetent they are, it'll miraculously pull through.



FA's community is enough to keep it alive for a long time. This is where everyone is, artists, commissioners, etc. which is why they keep pulling through.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 10, 2014)

I think it's hit a point where, like some companies, it's too big to fail now. As a couple people have said before me, all the art is here with all the artists, and some basic functionality. Right now, I guess that's all people really want.


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## Lobar (Jun 10, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> FA's community is enough to keep it alive for a long time. This is where everyone is, artists, commissioners, etc. which is why they keep pulling through.



Or, in other words, FA keeps trucking on inertia alone.  They actively do the fandom a disservice by preventing anything better from having enough space to put down roots and grow.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 10, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> FA's community is enough to keep it alive for a long time. This is where everyone is, artists, commissioners, etc. which is why they keep pulling through.



And that's kinda sad.


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## Jabberwocky (Jun 10, 2014)

hell will freeze over before that happens.


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## RTDragon (Jun 10, 2014)

Hybrid Persona said:


> I think it's hit a point where, like some companies, it's too big to fail now. As a couple people have said before me, all the art is here with all the artists, and some basic functionality. Right now, I guess that's all people really want.



Unfortunately not really as artists i've noticed are leaving FA for much more professional sites. Since the majority of FA artists are hobbyist.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 10, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Unfortunately not really as artists i've noticed are leaving FA for much more professional sites. Since the majority of FA artists are hobbyist.



For every one "popufur" who leaves to better sites over drama or whatever, at least 2 more new ones come aboard to _good ol'_ FA to take their place. FA has become *the* furfaggotry website in general, you google furry, you get FA. There's more than enough newer people coming in to more than make up for those people.


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## Hybrid Persona (Jun 11, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> For every one "popufur" who leaves to better sites over drama or whatever, at least 2 more new ones come aboard to _good ol'_ FA to take their place. FA has become *the* furfaggotry website in general, you google furry, you get FA. There's more than enough newer people coming in to more than make up for those people.


^

And also, again, I think it's safe to say that most of the furry art you can find on the internet is here.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 11, 2014)

and improvement, just for the sake of improvement, that's basically what we're complaining about. Other sites are improving, FA is not (or at least really slowly). It's not that FA is unusable, it's that we're comparing it to other sites that update regularly.

Let's get one thing straight: those who are leaving aren't leaving because FA has become unusable, they're leaving because they want features FA has not provided, features which I may add, are not a right, but a privilege. They also leave because of the so-called drama, which for the most part is exaggerated because of the community itself.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 11, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> and improvement, just for the sake of improvement, that's basically what we're complaining about. Other sites are improving, FA is not (or at least really slowly). It's not that FA is unusable, it's that we're comparing it to other sites that update regularly.



Of course we're fucking comparing it to other sites, it's up to FA to keep up with the competition and keep us wanting to use their site. This is true with everything. 



PheagleAdler said:


> Let's get one thing straight: those who are leaving aren't leaving because FA has become unusable, they're leaving because they want features FA has not provided, features which I may add, are not a right, but a privilege.



Okay, they still don't add basic functionality available virtually everywhere else despite having _wayyyyy_ more resources than literally every other similar site. For years we've been promised all these basic things, and have gotten nothing. Not even a "we're sorry it's taking this long here's our progress", nothing. It's inexcusable at this point, especially when there's a huge line of qualified people who would probably be willing to do this shit for free. 



PheagleAdler said:


> They also leave because of the so-called drama, which for the most part is exaggerated because of the community itself.


I'm not opening this can of worms on account that this is the only place certain powers that be pay any attention to but the FA staff have a history of some...questionable decisions that people have every right to be pissed about.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 12, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> Then they really are like Nintendo. They keep on failing and failing hard, but that money keeps on flowing. For ninty, it's cash reserves. For FA, it's popufur donations.



...
Baaaaack to this for a second. The one other thing that helped keep them going despite flops and poor sales...



PheagleAdler said:


> and improvement, just for the sake of improvement, that's basically what we're complaining about. Other sites are improving, FA is not (or at least really slowly). It's not that FA is unusable, it's that we're comparing it to other sites that update regularly.
> 
> Let's get one thing straight: those who are leaving aren't leaving because FA has become unusable, they're leaving because they want features FA has not provided, features which I may add, are not a right, but a privilege. They also leave because of the so-called drama, which for the most part is exaggerated because of the community itself.



...are their fanboys who tell them nothing is actually wrong and say their problems are exaggerated by people who actually know what they're talking about.

And did you just say the "drama" that will not be mentioned was blown out of proportion?










Please...speak no more on the subject if that's your stance.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 12, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> ...
> Baaaaack to this for a second. The one other thing that helped keep them going despite flops and poor sales...
> 
> 
> ...



I'm a fanboy because I don't exaggerate everything like a drama queen? That's stupid. As for the drama you're supposedly mention, unless I see concrete proof, it's bull crap. I don't believe things just because random people say them, and I don't 'go with the flow' so just because a decent number of people believe something doesn't make it true.


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## RTDragon (Jun 12, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm a fanboy because I don't exaggerate everything like a drama queen? That's stupid. As for the drama you're supposedly mention, unless I see concrete proof, it's bull crap. I don't believe things just because random people say them, and I don't 'go with the flow' so just because a decent number of people believe something doesn't make it true.



You have not been here for long since your join date is 2009. there was a lot more problems considering the original owner of FA before dragoneer. Having so many  broken empty promises that even other art sites have, people wanting to help out and be ignored for years. That's not normal for a website at all especially with the issues that are still cropping up. I would suggest you study and look at both sides before you say anything since you are not really helping your argument.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 12, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm a fanboy because I don't exaggerate everything like a drama queen? That's stupid. As for the drama you're supposedly mention, unless I see concrete proof, it's bull crap. I don't believe things just because random people say them, and I don't 'go with the flow' so just because a decent number of people believe something doesn't make it true.



Nnnnnnnaaah, what I said is pretty much true. Thanks for adding to the problem as a whole though! Piche appreciates it, I'm certain.

Now, I'll get the boot if I go into detail, but there's some good places to start educating yourself before you speak nonsense.

They're called Google, Yahoo, and Bing. Try them one day. You'll look a Hell of a lot smarter than you are now.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 12, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm a fanboy because I don't exaggerate everything like a drama queen? That's stupid. As for the drama you're supposedly mention, unless I see concrete proof, it's bull crap. I don't believe things just because random people say them, and I don't 'go with the flow' so just because a decent number of people believe something doesn't make it true.



Even if for the sake of argument that Dragoneer and company are 100% innocent of any wrong doing and that all drama surrounding them are completely false. How do you justify the absolutely shit state of FA? The lack of any real features that have become standard everywhere else despite all the promises to the contrary? How do you justify the lack of any update as to the supposed progress of these features despite the vast amount of time and resources FA has?


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## Calemeyr (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Even if for the sake of argument that Dragoneer and company are 100% innocent of any wrong doing and that all drama surrounding them are completely false. How do you justify the absolutely shit state of FA? The lack of any real features that have become standard everywhere else despite all the promises to the contrary? How do you justify the lack of any update as to the supposed progress of these features despite the vast amount of time and resources FA has?


He can't justify it, and he won't This guy constantly whiteknights everything the administration does from what I've seen in the news journals. He may be a sockpuppet. 

If we showed evidence, it would be discounted as "trolling" or "anti-furry slander".

See, this is another problem with FA. The army of fanboys who muffle out constructive criticism with their constant moanss against perceived "unwarranted" drama. It only serves to boost up the egos of the administration, causing work to continue to be in an incompleted state because they see the people are happy with what they got. No, just the fanboys. Like ninty fanboys who say the Wii U is the greatest thing in the decade even though the console and the business pracitces surrounding it are tanking the company's stock. Fanboys aren't enough, because eventually some betray their "masters" and move on to something else or run out of money to support the company they like.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> He can't justify it, and he won't This guy constantly whiteknights everything the administration does from what I've seen in the news journals. He may be a sockpuppet.
> 
> If we showed evidence, it would be discounted as "trolling" or "anti-furry slander".
> 
> See, this is another problem with FA. The army of fanboys who muffle out constructive criticism with their constant moanss against perceived "unwarranted" drama. It only serves to boost up the egos of the administration, causing work to continue to be in an incompleted state because they see the people are happy with what they got. No, just the fanboys. Like ninty fanboys who say the Wii U is the greatest thing in the decade even though the console and the business pracitces surrounding it are tanking the company's stock. Fanboys aren't enough, because eventually some betray their "masters" and move on to something else or run out of money to support the company they like.



Gee, thanks for being an asshole. Why is it that when I question your criticism that makes me wrong, a fanboy, white knight, or sock puppet? I want proof, is that too much to ask? As far as drama goes, certain issues such as 'alleged' rape allegations (thanks for making me bring this up :/) have little to do with how the site is run, but people made a huge deal out of it. FA is not law enforcement and they can't put someone in jail for something of which they have no proof. And me saying so doesn't make me a white knight or 'rape apologist.' Quite frankly it's his private life (just like any other alleged crime that happened off-site) and I have no business getting involved with it, nor does anyone else here. Leave it and move on.

Your argument "If we showed evidence, it would be discounted as "trolling" or "anti-furry slander"." holds no water. So show it already. Who the hell do you think I am?

Well, I'll tell you. I'm an individual who joined the site in 2009, didn't start to participate much until 8 months later. Look, I get it, I missed a few things before I joined the site, moving on I have been through a few outages, and yes I've gotten angry and impatient when the site was down for more than a day or two. Check my posts. I'm supportive of the current project because I want it to succeed, and for the site to gain a much-needed update to its layout, but for the most part I am fine with what I have to use in the current site design.

I can't justify a lack of an update, and quite frankly there should be more dedicated workers, financially I don't think FA could support that, especially since what happened with donations. The site's been through a lot, but I am thankful that it's still standing.

There's at least one admin or former admin that I've disagreed with a few times as well, which has gotten me in trouble on several occasions. If I was a 'sockpuppet' as you claim, perhaps these would have been avoided? Dude, I'm just an average Joe who wants to see the site succeed and to stay on the good side of the site admins. Obviously they're not perfect, I know they've made more than a few mistakes.


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## RTDragon (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> Gee, thanks for being an asshole. Why is it that when I question your criticism that makes me wrong, a fanboy, white knight, or sock puppet? I want proof, is that too much to ask? As far as drama goes, certain issues such as 'alleged' rape allegations (thanks for making me bring this up :/) have little to do with how the site is run, but people made a huge deal out of it. FA is not law enforcement and they can't put someone in jail for something of which they have no proof. And me saying so doesn't make me a white knight or 'rape apologist.' Quite frankly it's his private life (just like any other alleged crime that happened off-site) and I have no business getting involved with it, nor does anyone else here. Leave it and move on.
> 
> Your argument "If we showed evidence, it would be discounted as "trolling" or "anti-furry slander"." holds no water. So show it already. Who the hell do you think I am?



Says the guy who calls someone with a civil argument an asshole. I think that name fits you a whole lot better for one that spews out obscenities. 
You can't even make a civil argument or back up your evidence without swearing. You really need to stop being so defensive.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> Your argument "If we showed evidence, it would be discounted as "trolling" or "anti-furry slander"." holds no water. So show it already. Who the hell do you think I am?



EDIT: Withdrawn. This was not directed at me.


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## Kalmor (Jun 13, 2014)

Allllrright guys lets cut it with the name calling and whatnot.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 13, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> He can't justify it, and he won't This guy constantly whiteknights everything the administration does from what I've seen in the news journals. He may be a sockpuppet.
> 
> If we showed evidence, it would be discounted as "trolling" or "anti-furry slander".
> 
> See, this is another problem with FA. The army of fanboys who muffle out constructive criticism with their constant moanss against perceived "unwarranted" drama. It only serves to boost up the egos of the administration, causing work to continue to be in an incompleted state because they see the people are happy with what they got. No, just the fanboys. Like ninty fanboys who say the Wii U is the greatest thing in the decade even though the console and the business pracitces surrounding it are tanking the company's stock. Fanboys aren't enough, because eventually some betray their "masters" and move on to something else or run out of money to support the company they like.



Correct.
The consumers don't owe the companies (or in this case site owners/admins) anything. They owe their patrons who put them on the map be it through donations, or just being a frequent user giving their broken and battered jalopy of a website the traffic. Traffic that to most is not deserved for good reason. 

They provide a service. 
They are paid in traffic and money. 
They RECEIVE both. 
Where is the return on the investment? When will the dedicated site users be reciprocated for their money and continued patience? The fantardation needs to stop.


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## Kalmor (Jun 13, 2014)

May I just point out (with all this talk of donations), FA doesn't turn a profit. Nowhere near. Dragoneer keeps the site running out of his own pocket. Donations and ad sales are in the minority iirc.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 13, 2014)

Now that's something I'd like to ask for proof of, if you'd be willing to share or direct me to.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 13, 2014)

Kalmor said:


> May I just point out (with all this talk of donations), FA doesn't turn a profit. Nowhere near. Dragoneer keeps the site running out of his own pocket. Donations and ad sales are in the minority iirc.



Obviously I can't verify if that's true or not, however assuming that was true that doesn't excuse the fact that they _did_ promise these things years ago and have made zero effort since then.


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> More impressive is that you can continue to be let down *repeatedly*. You would think FA was bought by EA (sorry, I just watched their press conference).


If that's the cause folders would be available as a $4.99 add on, but then we'd charge you $0.99 to upgrade your folder limits to hold more pictures.


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## Kalmor (Jun 13, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> Now that's something I'd like to ask for proof of, if you'd be willing to share or direct me to.


Just poked neer about it on skype. Turns out I was wrong and it just about breaks even. So there we go, sorry I don't have any further proof other than that, unless the big man comes in here himself and shares.

Edit: Oh there he is. XD


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Obviously I can't verify if that's true or not, however assuming that was true that doesn't excuse the fact that they _did_ promise these things years ago and have made zero effort since then.


I have made a lot of mistakes. A LOT. Among them is getting over-excited and announcing things before they were ready or before their time, or even ready to go. Things came up, and... yeah, I fucked up. I've done a lot of things that went wrong, have gone wrong, or haven't come to fruition. I feel bad about that, seriously. I can't change the past, but that's also one of the reasons we're going open source for Phoenix. We want things to get better, improve.


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## Calemeyr (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Obviously I can't verify if that's true or not, however assuming that was true that doesn't excuse the fact that they _did_ promise these things years ago and have made zero effort since then.


That's all the proof you need. Folders promised in 2010, never came because the site is coded by people who don't have time to code because they have real jobs. That and they wanted to keep the thing closed source. Now they are finally letting people help, only after firing that Ben guy because Zaush thought he was better than Ben, even though Zaush lied about his credentials, supposedly. Ben is now a scapegoat for phoenix not being done, even though it's ultimately Zaush's fault since he's in charge of the coding part. And the only reason Zaush is on is because his "popufur" status would make the project more visible. Well, it's visible all right, what with the massive exodus in January. The only reason people came back from Weasyl is because that site is dying faster than this one is.

So we have loads of people asking to help. Unless this is a complete overhaul, I don't see how it will get any better. But if it is an overhaul, then it may work a lot. I like FA, I don't want to see it go through months of downtime.

If anything kills FA, it will be the coding, and possibly from Zaush not knowing how to code as well as other people and him trying to tell the volunteers who know better than him to do it a certain way (the messy web way we have now). I'm sorry, I don't have much faith in that man, because, again, he misrepresented his credentials. Well, at least cub was banned, there was something right for a change. And if people left because of that, fuck'em. We have no use for pedophiles here. This is why all the failings are so disappointing, because there is a lot of potential of something right actually being done.

These are my thoughts and suggestions on the whole issue of the site. I had to get it all off my chest. I apologize if it came off as incendiary. What needs to happen is Zaush be replaced with someone else, someone whose name doesn't cause drama, and more importantly, someone who doesn't lie about their credentials. That's a big one. I'm an Engineer, and you don't put someone underqualified in a project lead position, and lying to get the spot can get you fired. If the replacement has already happened, then I am dumb, yet happy since that would mean there is potential for Phoenix to finally fix this old site and make it attractive again. The open source stuff does seem quite promising, and I hope more people sign up to help.


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> And the only reason Zaush is on is because his "popufur" status would make the project more visible.
> 
> So we have loads of people asking to help. Unless this is a complete overhaul, I don't see how it will get any better.
> 
> If anything kills FA, it will be the coding, and possibly from Zaush not knowing how to code as well as other people and him trying to tell the volunteers who know better than him to do it a certain way (the messy web way we have now).


Zaush was NOT pulled on because of his popularity, but for his skill at designing. Just because someone is popular does NOT meant I instantly side or choose them. The compositions and UI designs he put forth really impressed me.

When Zaush came on, the sole purpose was merely to spruce up FA's design and add some extra functionality. It grew from that, then to Phoenix, and became open source. Several people have been brought on to Phoenix, and we just added two more in the past 24 hours (front end folk). Zaush is not the main coder for the project.

Phoenix is a complete recode from the ground up.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 13, 2014)

Calemeyr said:


> The only reason people came back from Weasyl is because that site is dying faster than this one is.



Uh. >.> Weasyl is as popular as ever...if people came back its because they got over whatever bullshit they were pissed over. And frankly, its not that many of them. You still see a ton of "Moved to Weasyl" icons every time you browse.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 13, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> When Zaush came on, the sole purpose was merely to spruce up FA's design and add some extra functionality. It grew from that, then to Phoenix, and became open source. Several people have been brought on to Phoenix, and we just added two more in the past 24 hours (front end folk). Zaush is not the main coder for the project.



So let me ask you then, how long have these people been on? How much progress has been made if at all?


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> So let me ask you then, how long have these people been on? How much progress has been made if at all?


Some of the have been on since December/January, and we've brought on two more this months. We're looking at adding additional people. All the progress is available on the hub, and much of it can be used to put the basic structure. Progress has been made, but it won't be ready for a while. I'm not giving timelines because every time I do they bite me in the ass.

But we're adding to the team and working to expand the group.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 13, 2014)

Kalmor said:


> Just poked neer about it on skype. Turns out I was wrong and it just about breaks even. So there we go, sorry I don't have any further proof other than that, unless the big man comes in here himself and shares.
> 
> Edit: Oh there he is. XD



That's quite all right. I was not trying to haggle you. Just wanted to see for myself. It would have been nice if the man himself had addressed it instead of telling me how EA provides a better service. We knew this.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 13, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> Some of the have been on since December/January, and we've brought on two more this months. We're looking at adding additional people. All the progress is available on the hub, and much of it can be used to put the basic structure. Progress has been made, but it won't be ready for a while. I'm not giving timelines because every time I do they bite me in the ass.
> 
> But we're adding to the team and working to expand the group.



Why has it taken this long to actually begin progress on something like this? It's no secret that FA has been pretty much inferior feature-wise to every other similar website for years, so why have you only now decided to rectify that?


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> That's quite all right. I was not trying to haggle you. Just wanted to see for myself. It would have been nice if the man himself had addressed it instead of telling me how EA provides a better service. We knew this.



I never said EA provides a better service. When did I say that?


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Why has it taken this long to actually begin progress on something like this? It's no secret that FA has been pretty much inferior to every other similar website for years, so why have you only know decided to rectify that?



I could write a novel on why things didn't go right, why former revisions failed and that previous attempts went far, far wrong. But I won't. Instead, I'll leave it that mistakes were made in the past on all sides, and that I've finally found a way to remove the proverbial stick from my ass.


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## TheArchiver (Jun 13, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> I never said EA provides a better service. When did I say that?



The joke.









Your head.


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## Dragoneer (Jun 13, 2014)

TheArchiver said:


> The joke.
> 
> Your head.


I see what you did there.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Says the guy who calls someone with a civil argument an asshole. I think that name fits you a whole lot better for one that spews out obscenities.
> You can't even make a civil argument or back up your evidence without swearing. You really need to stop being so defensive.



Well, that typically happens when I get angry. People accusing me of being a sock puppet or some other phony title, and as Peter Griffin would say, "that really grinds my gears"


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> Well, that typically happens when I get angry. People accusing me of being a sock puppet or some other phony title, and as Peter Griffin would say, "that really grinds my gears"



PROTIP: Quoting Family Guy doesn't exactly make you seem smart.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

Dragoneer said:


> I have made a lot of mistakes. A LOT. Among them is getting over-excited and announcing things before they were ready or before their time, or even ready to go. Things came up, and... yeah, I fucked up. I've done a lot of things that went wrong, have gone wrong, or haven't come to fruition. I feel bad about that, seriously. I can't change the past, but that's also one of the reasons we're going open source for Phoenix. We want things to get better, improve.



I, for one, think it's great that you're willing to admit that you've made mistakes. I think though no matter what you do or don't do, there will always be someone who is disappointed with 'the administration'

I think working together is the best way to keep this site moving forward, and not fighting/arguing with the admins is part of the solution. It is sad that some people think I'm a 'fanboy' simply because I'm trying to avoid drama (unsuccessfully when I proceed to argue with them)


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> PROTIP: Quoting Family Guy doesn't exactly make you seem smart.



What does that have to do with anything. That is your opinion, quite frankly, and it's misguided. Just because I watch Family Guy that doesn't make me less intelligent than you, perhaps it makes me more tolerant, actually. Regardless, the phrase fits, no matter where it came from.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> It is sad that some people think I'm a 'fanboy' simply because I'm trying to avoid drama *(unsuccessfully when I proceed to argue with them)*



:/ Well there's your problem, birdo. 

And really this thread wouldn't even have hit 3 pages if not for you and other ppl arguing over whether or not you are a fanboy. No one wants to see that except to laugh at it.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

Butters Shikkon said:


> :/ Well there's your problem, birdo.
> 
> And really this thread wouldn't even have hit 3 pages if not for you and other ppl arguing over whether or not you are a fanboy. No one wants to see that except to laugh at it.



Well it's part of my personality, I don't let things go easily. I really would like to work on controlling myself though, so these things don't happen in the future.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> What does that have to do with anything. That is your opinion, quite frankly, and it's misguided. Just because I watch Family Guy that doesn't make me less intelligent than you, perhaps it makes me more tolerant, actually. Regardless, the phrase fits, no matter where it came from.



It makes people not take you seriously. Regardless of whether or not you agree with it.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

PastryOfApathy said:


> It makes people not take you seriously. Regardless of whether or not you agree with it.



No. It makes YOU not take me seriously, but you haven't done so since you entered this thread anyway. So why don't you buzz off?


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## RTDragon (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> No. It makes YOU not take me seriously, but you haven't done so since you entered this thread anyway. So why don't you buzz off?



Your actually proving everyone point. You're extremely defensive when your called out of your behavior. Seriously if your this easily to anger maybe you should not even be involved in civil discussion on forums with that attitude your showing here.


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## PastryOfApathy (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> No. It makes YOU not take me seriously, but you haven't done so since you entered this thread anyway. So why don't you buzz off?



lol


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> Your actually proving everyone point. You're extremely defensive when your called out of your behavior. Seriously if your this easily to anger maybe you should not even be involved in civil discussion on forums with that attitude your showing here.



Look, I'm defensive because I'm being called out for bullshit. Oops, I cursed. You're not my mother so I don't give a damn. When you call me out for something that is actually true, I won't have much to say about it. So how about you shove a sock in it?


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## RTDragon (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> Look, I'm defensive because I'm being called out for bullshit. Oops, I cursed. You're not my mother so I don't give a damn. When you call me out for something that is actually true, I won't have much to say about it. So how about you shove a sock in it?



How about you listen and take your own advice.


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## Kalmor (Jun 13, 2014)

Stop bickering about things not related to the topic guys.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

RTDragon said:


> How about you listen and take your own advice.



Fat chance. I was talking to you, not myself. You're just looking to pick a fight, that's what's happening here. I think it'd be best for you to move on.


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## PheagleAdler (Jun 13, 2014)

Kalmor said:


> Stop bickering about things not related to the topic guys.



Sorry, I just noticed your message.


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## RTDragon (Jun 13, 2014)

PheagleAdler said:


> Fat chance. I was talking to you, not myself. You're just looking to pick a fight, that's what's happening here. I think it'd be best for you to move on.



I'm actually not picking a fight with you. Just helpful advice on being civil. But if you think i'm attacking you then all i have to say good luck with that kind of behavior.


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## Butters Shikkon (Jun 13, 2014)

Mr. Kalmor, fire when ready...


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