# Furry Acceptance in Today's World



## LunaGryph (Sep 7, 2022)

One day, as I was curiously looking around the internet for how accepted furries are where I live, I found this study talking about its acceptance by US state. If you're from the US, I'd like to know how things have changed since that study was conducted. Otherwise, for those from other countries, I'd like to know how much furries have been accepted in your community or society you're from. In both cases, I'd also like to know why it's been like that.


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## Smityyyy (Sep 7, 2022)

I think that things, especially in the last 2-4 years, have gotten much better. I see much more positive/accepting attitudes in the mainstream lately. I mean, sure, it ain’t perfect; however, it’s leagues better than even a decade ago.


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## Deleted member 160111 (Sep 7, 2022)

Russia. I do not know a single person who openly referred to himself as a Furry in the circle of outsiders. However, none of the trends are working fine here. Abuse and harassment are not a crime. Furry is a perversion (because of yiff, of course). It's a shame, because, given the love of furs for costumes, they would make good animators for children's parties or just cool people with whom you can take pictures in a public place.
Oh, they also want to ban furry as a subculture here. And they even equate it with terrorism.
Too negative, sorry.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 7, 2022)

Eyleifr said:


> Russia. I do not know a single person who openly referred to himself as a Furry in the circle of outsiders. However, none of the trends are working fine here. Abuse and harassment are not a crime. Furry is a perversion (because of yiff, of course). It's a shame, because, given the love of furs for costumes, they would make good animators for children's parties or just cool people with whom you can take pictures in a public place.
> Oh, they also want to ban furry as a subculture here. And they even equate it with terrorism.
> Too negative, sorry.


Seems that Russia is still stuck back during the days when furries had a bad public image, whereas everywhere else in the world has pretty much accepted them. It's kinda like a mirror of what everywhere else used to be at one time. Would hate to see others following suit, since that could mean the death of the fandom. Was Russia always like this before furries had a bad image?
On the other hand, fursuiters as part of a children's party? Interesting. Do you or anyone know that has done that before? I've seen and watched tons of vids and pics of fursuiters getting pics taken of in public. It's something so fun that it's something I've been looking forward to doing one of these days. Just gotta make sure that where I plan to do it is legal before doing so, or else I'd turned-in for breaking anti-mask laws (or failing to do prior research).


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## Deleted member 160111 (Sep 7, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Seems that Russia is still stuck back during the days when furries had a bad public image, whereas everywhere else in the world has pretty much accepted them.


That's true, but the attitude towards Furry is obviously the least of the problems right now. There are a lot of young people who are trying to fight this conservative nonsense. They are the future.


LunaGryph said:


> Was Russia always like this before furries had a bad image?


An interesting question. To begin with, I don't quite understand what you include in the word "such".
Furry is a young movement by the standards of all countries, if I'm not mistaken? I'm not sure when furries became "popular" here. I think it started around 2010 or so. At that time, almost everyone had computers and the Internet.
I think furries had almost no chance to become so popular during this time. The image was ruined already in 2013. Or even earlier, I really don't remember.


LunaGryph said:


> On the other hand, fursuiters as part of a children's party? Interesting.


I just thought that it would be fun for children if one of the parents has his own fursuit If parents or other adults are present at the celebration, wouldn't that make it more fun? I just think it's a good idea when you have a fursuit.


LunaGryph said:


> Do you or anyone know that has done that before?


No, I've never seen it. It is not customary to hire animators here. And the number of guests is usually very small. Even at children's parties, there are usually few guests.


LunaGryph said:


> I've seen and watched tons of vids and pics of fursuiters getting pics taken of in public. It's something so fun that it's something I've been looking forward to doing one of these days. Just gotta make sure that where I plan to do it is legal before doing so, or else I'd turned-in for breaking anti-mask laws (or failing to do prior research).


Yeah, I think it's funny too.
I don't think you're going to have a negative experience with this. I don't think you should go into banks, hospitals, and maybe grocery stores? Unless furries have become commonplace in your neighborhood.


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## Guifrog (Sep 7, 2022)

Brazil

Generally, we're seen as a bunch of funny weirdos. Media coverage makes me laugh every time, they seem to have lots of fun writing/reporting about the events. My friends are amused by it too. I guess this makes it a positive for my country.

Never seen strong opinions or attitude about it here, but it could be just me and my personal experience. Worst I've seen was people calling it "sickening", that the sexual aspect is "bizarre", and that they worry about their mental health, in reddit comments from 6-7 years ago. Yet, at the same time, stating they had nothing against them.

As for why, I mean, to me it has always been obvious. We're weirdos. But I suppose the culture of carnaval, where people dress as everything you can imagine, enjoy themselves in the most creative ways (and do all sorts of sexual things too), might contribute to a "light" perspective of furries lol


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## Pomorek (Sep 7, 2022)

Poland. By necessity it's my very personal perspective, it may well be things are different in other locations, particularily in city environments - but when it comes to smaller towns, any visible deviation from "The Norm" angers people and they won't hesitate to let you know. Also I think that if the authorities knew about the furry fandom, they would lash against it, but it is very obscure topic here so the likelihood of them finding out about this "perversion" is low. Generally, the society is very conservative and while politically Poland and Russia are enemies, on the ideological level they could shake hands. The desire to turn the clock back to pre-Enlightment era seems strong in both places.


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## Nexus Cabler (Sep 7, 2022)

Interesting to see my state in the middle ground. It makes sense.

Furry conventions are held here in Arkansas and there isn't anything illegal about it. You are more likely to be approached by the law for harassing furries than for being one. People in general will tolerate us, but you still will risk the chance of getting some weird and possibly judgmental looks from some locals if you were fur suiting in public. This depends on where and when.

It used to be worse many years ago, but things are changing.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 7, 2022)

Guifrog said:


> Brazil
> 
> Generally, we're seen as a bunch of funny weirdos. Media coverage makes me laugh every time, they seem to have lots of fun writing/reporting about the events. My friends are amused by it too. I guess this makes it a positive for my country.
> 
> ...


Sounds like those who say it's crazy, but yet have nothing against them, are hypocrites. Never brought-up about furries to my friends, since they never brought-up the topic with me, and if I did so would result in possibly losing them in the process. Seems like where you live are quite accepting. Where I live is questionable.


Pomorek said:


> Poland. By necessity it's my very personal perspective, it may well be things are different in other locations, particularily in city environments - but when it comes to smaller towns, any visible deviation from "The Norm" angers people and they won't hesitate to let you know. Also I think that if the authorities knew about the furry fandom, they would lash against it, but it is very obscure topic here so the likelihood of them finding out about this "perversion" is low. Generally, the society is very conservative and while politically Poland and Russia are enemies, on the ideological level they could shake hands. The desire to turn the clock back to pre-Enlightment era seems strong in both places.


I currently live in an almost-old folk area. Because of this, I'm afraid that if I were to supposedly do weird things, like wear a fursuit in public, they may also be angered by it. Dunno how authorities would react if they ever get the gist of the fandom in my area.


Nexus Cabler said:


> Interesting to see my state in the middle ground. It makes sense.
> 
> Furry conventions are held here in Arkansas and there isn't anything illegal about it. You are more likely to be approached by the law for harassing furries than for being one. People in general will tolerate us, but you still will risk the chance of getting some weird and possibly judgmental looks from some locals if you were fur suiting in public. This depends on where and when.
> 
> It used to be worse many years ago, but things are changing.


Approached for harassing furries rather than being one is epic. Dunno how people tolerate furries where I live now since that study or if things have changed since. It says that my state is on the bottom half. No fur cons have ever been held there also. Nice that it's legal, compared to somewhere like Russia.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 7, 2022)

Eyleifr said:


> That's true, but the attitude towards Furry is obviously the least of the problems right now. There are a lot of young people who are trying to fight this conservative nonsense. They are the future.
> 
> An interesting question. To begin with, I don't quite understand what you include in the word "such".
> Furry is a young movement by the standards of all countries, if I'm not mistaken? I'm not sure when furries became "popular" here. I think it started around 2010 or so. At that time, almost everyone had computers and the Internet.
> ...


Parents owning their own fursuit? Epic. Unless some parents or adults have something bad against furries, I'd think that it makes thing more fun. I currently own at least 10 fursuits. Two full suits, and the rest are partials. Two of the partials I've been trying to upgrade into full planti suits. 
Wonder if furries attitudes would be at the top after dealing with the political problems? True that they're the future, like every young generation past and present.
Another problem, dunno if they're commonplace where I live.


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## MaelstromEyre (Sep 9, 2022)

Ohio, USA.  In my local area, the furry fandom is still viewed unfavorably.  People either don't know about it at all, or their "knowledge" of it is based on stuff they've seen on television.  I have one co-worker who said she was at a restaurant near a hotel where a small con had taken place, and the waitress told her about the "weird furry group" there.  So, her entire opinion of the fandom was based on the words of one person who saw a few furries, and it was set on that.

I am a greymuzzle (45 years old) and do not discuss my "furry" affiliation with anyone for this reason.  It's best not to waste my time or patience trying to explain it to people.


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## Goon the frank (Sep 9, 2022)

I live in BC, Canada. Despite Vancoufur I don't think furries get much publicity and in my family I think it's only me and my sister who know about them. My sister sent me the Internet Historian's Rainfurrest video when I mentioned I was checking it out, and was concerned about drug culture (I still find that video really funny). Myself, I was really uncomfortable with anything furry. I think I liked the art but just didn't want to admit it

Among college mates I think furries have only been brought up in jokes/memes.


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## Troj (Sep 9, 2022)

Colorado. When I went to Denfur last month, I was genuinely and pleasantly surprised by the high number of Denver locals I encountered who appeared to be familiar with cosplayers and/or furries and didn't need anything to be explained to them.

In my general neck of the woods, I regularly encounter a broad range of people, from chuds who scream slurs at me from their cars, to the kids kids who rush up to me and try to show me drawings of their own fursonas on their phones. Overall, I'd say my area is fairly tolerant towards furries, and that the average person has either at least heard of furries in passing, or is familiar with the concept of cosplay at bare minimum.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 10, 2022)

MaelstromEyre said:


> Ohio, USA.  In my local area, the furry fandom is still viewed unfavorably.  People either don't know about it at all, or their "knowledge" of it is based on stuff they've seen on television.  I have one co-worker who said she was at a restaurant near a hotel where a small con had taken place, and the waitress told her about the "weird furry group" there.  So, her entire opinion of the fandom was based on the words of one person who saw a few furries, and it was set on that.
> 
> I am a greymuzzle (45 years old) and do not discuss my "furry" affiliation with anyone for this reason.  It's best not to waste my time or patience trying to explain it to people.


Guess Ohio is the "Russia" of US. Maybe that's one place where fursuiting in public is a bad idea?
I also don't mention about this to anyone because of fear of harsh judgment, and the fact that I can get fired from my job for talking about this.


Goon the frank said:


> I live in BC, Canada. Despite Vancoufur I don't think furries get much publicity and in my family I think it's only me and my sister who know about them. My sister sent me the Internet Historian's Rainfurrest video when I mentioned I was checking it out, and was concerned about drug culture (I still find that video really funny). Myself, I was really uncomfortable with anything furry. I think I liked the art but just didn't want to admit it
> 
> Among college mates I think furries have only been brought up in jokes/memes.


LOL, I've also seen that vid too! To me, when people start talking to me about furries in public irl, then I feel uncomfortable. I only like the fursuits part though.
Surprised that your college mates are okay with bringing-up furries. Do they know anything about furries? Don't think my friends are okay with it, unless they start talking about it, then I'd know otherwise.


Troj said:


> Colorado. When I went to Denfur last month, I was genuinely and pleasantly surprised by the high number of Denver locals I encountered who appeared to be familiar with cosplayers and/or furries and didn't need anything to be explained to them.
> 
> In my general neck of the woods, I regularly encounter a broad range of people, from chuds who scream slurs at me from their cars, to the kids kids who rush up to me and try to show me drawings of their own fursonas on their phones. Overall, I'd say my area is fairly tolerant towards furries, and that the average person has either at least heard of furries in passing, or is familiar with the concept of cosplay at bare minimum.


Hope they were on the right side of the internet or fandom to know about it, not that "other" side.


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## Liam1807 (Sep 10, 2022)

I live in Sydney, Australia. If you see a furry in public, it is considered a very rare moment, because there aren't many fur-suiters here. There is a Furry Con at Sydney Olympic Park being hosted every year however.


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## Judge Spear (Sep 10, 2022)

Should be an option for "no one cares" because most people would not know what the fuck you're talking about if you brought up furry to them.


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## Emberfrost (Sep 10, 2022)

Kind of, it depends on what they know about the fandom. If they know nothing or have an accurate definition, yes, If they have an incorrect definition...not so much.


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## greygamora (Sep 10, 2022)

I have never even heard anyone talk about furries in my area.


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## Emberfrost (Sep 10, 2022)

If I tell people I'm a furry, I have to define it for them half the time, and the other half I have to stress that I do not think I am an animal (even if being an animal would be cool) and that I'd never be attracted or interested in animals as I would a human. It's very annoying and I can just feel people judging. But you know what? I'm not going to hide my furry existence


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## Goon the frank (Sep 10, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Surprised that your college mates are okay with bringing-up furries


Just in the gaming club. It's very rare, like once in a year in the gaming discord when something like beastars happens, and usually as a joke. At my old college the gaming club seemed mostly cool with it, but it's weird. I'm still trying to get a feel for my new college
I still doubt the average non-gamer knows what a furry is


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## Bababooey (Sep 10, 2022)

Man I don't know. Probably.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 10, 2022)

Liam1807 said:


> I live in Sydney, Australia. If you see a furry in public, it is considered a very rare moment, because there aren't many fur-suiters here. There is a Furry Con at Sydney Olympic Park being hosted every year however.


I'm pretty sure it's rare anywhere to see one, including where I live. Have yet to encounter one. Been constantly on the lookout on my daily commutes.


greygamora said:


> I have never even heard anyone talk about furries in my area.


Mines too, so far.


Emberfrost said:


> If I tell people I'm a furry, I have to define it for them half the time, and the other half I have to stress that I do not think I am an animal (even if being an animal would be cool) and that I'd never be attracted or interested in animals as I would a human. It's very annoying and I can just feel people judging. But you know what? I'm not going to hide my furry existence


Kudos for you having balls/guts for showing your furry existence. 
If I had mentioned about it at my workplace, I'd probably get fired for it. Tell that to my family, I'd get disowned. Do that to my friends, and I'd likely lose all of them the moment I say it.


Goon the frank said:


> Just in the gaming club. It's very rare, like once in a year in the gaming discord when something like beastars happens, and usually as a joke. At my old college the gaming club seemed mostly cool with it, but it's weird. I'm still trying to get a feel for my new college
> I still doubt the average non-gamer knows what a furry is


Anyone there furries by any chance?


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## Connor J. Coyote (Sep 11, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Seems that Russia is still stuck back during the days when furries had a bad public image, whereas everywhere else in the world has pretty much accepted them.


@LunaGryph That statement is kind of overly broad frankly...... as I wouldn't call places like North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and China - bastians of Furry love and acceptance either. Russia has a long way to go certainly, in regards to those sorts of human rights..... and I call it human rights because in a way, being able to openly participate in a Fandom (such as this) without any fear of violence or retribution for doing so is a human right to me.

But it's not just in places like Russia or Iran....... there are many regions within Western democracies also, like here in the USA (where I am) where participating in a basic thing like fursuiting can potentially put someone in harms way and at risk.

And so if that dynamic can occur here in some parts of the US, then it's probably safe to say that it occurs in many other places also that aren't necessarily totalitarian regimes (like the places mentioned above).

And thus, if one is within that sort of environment, keeping things private, or amongst those that one trusts..... is the only way to go at present until things may improve someday.


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## Filter (Sep 11, 2022)

Originally from the Northeastern US, I've lived up and down the East Coast. Mostly in or near major metropolitan areas. It's unusual to see or hear of furries in the wild. Fursuiters sometimes appear at Anime conventions and Renaissance fairs, but that isn't talked about much. There are also local meetups at a nearby park. It's usually about fursuiting, however, rather than the art.

Other than a boss who claims to hate furries, and a sister who has referred to them as "weirdos in the park", the topic rarely comes up. Most who are close to me know about my cartooning hobby, and that I like to draw animal people, but stop short of connecting the dots to furry fandom. After all, Dr. Seuss drew animal people, movies like Zootopia are still popular, etc. As a kid I was a big fan of Garfield, Heathcliff, Snoopy from Peanuts etc., so I can kind of do this without drawing too much unwanted attention. Or maybe I have a kind of plausible deniability? I wish it didn't have to be like this. 

Some people can be totally open about their involvement with the fandom, and handle it with grace. Others give them the benefit of the doubt, and it adds to their charm. As for me, I have some experience with being misunderstood, having false rumors spread about me, etc. If I was to be more open with the furry label, it's likely that the negative associations would be foist upon me. Especially the ones that would be the most erroneous and hurtful. I'm an introvert. Although I like to present an optimistic and helpful attitude, I prefer to keep the outside world at arm's length and avoid unwanted attention.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 11, 2022)

Filter said:


> Originally from the Northeastern US, I've lived up and down the East Coast. Mostly in or near major metropolitan areas. It's unusual to see or hear of furries in the wild. Fursuiters sometimes appear at Anime conventions and Renaissance fairs, but that isn't talked about much. There are also local meetups at a nearby park. It's usually about fursuiting, however, rather than the art.
> 
> Other than a boss who claims to hate furries, and a sister who has referred to them as "weirdos in the park", the topic rarely comes up. Most who are close to me know about my cartooning hobby, and that I like to draw animal people, but stop short of connecting the dots to furry fandom. After all, Dr. Seuss drew animal people, movies like Zootopia are still popular, etc. As a kid I was a big fan of Garfield, Heathcliff, Snoopy from Peanuts etc., so I can kind of do this without drawing too much unwanted attention. Or maybe I have a kind of plausible deniability? I wish it didn't have to be like this.
> 
> Some people can be totally open about their involvement with the fandom, and handle it with grace. Others give them the benefit of the doubt, and it adds to their charm. As for me, I have some experience with being misunderstood, having false rumors spread about me, etc. If I was to be more open with the furry label, it's likely that the negative associations would be foist upon me. Especially the ones that would be the most erroneous and hurtful. I'm an introvert. Although I like to present an optimistic and helpful attitude, I prefer to keep the outside world at arm's length and avoid unwanted attention.


Same goes for where I live. 
That kind of meetup is something I'd love to go to, as fursuiting's my thing.
Zootopia still popular, even though it's not showing in theaters anymore?
I do know of some who are open about it. How does one handle it with grace, and other giving benefit of the doubt adds to their charm? Experience with having false rumors spread about you? How do you handle that?
BTW, I'm also an introvert too.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Sep 11, 2022)

South Korea.

TL;DR:
"It's a hobby, leave them be."
"They're weirdos, leave them be."
+ Fratricidal wars
ㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡ

Real life wise

I'd say it leans to acceptance. It depends on individuals, but most passerby never even care much and leave furries alone unless they whack a drama out.


Spoiler



'Coming out' in a common person:
Usually, in person, not a single person comes out as a furry. Could be either simply because one don't feel the need to inform of one's hobby out of context, or because the bad apples have left a significant scar on the impression that one doesn't wanna gamble on the possibilities of being discriminated.
But if you or other furries give out some clues, fellow furries might as well sniff it out and approach, then reveal themselves if it's not considered inappropriate.

In a dedicated situation:
Furcons exist, just like Cosplay Conferences(referred as CosCon below) majoring characters from animes and videogames etc. You may even spot fursuiters in CosCon whether individual fursuiters are under their independent characters or those from existing medias. That alone doesn't seem to cause any issues normally.

Let alone the conference, individual furries may do meetups with or without fursuits. And naturally, when without fursuiting situations, no one in the third party cares whether people are furries; when with fursuits, the most common impression being "potential part time workers under the job of street advertisements", unless not minding at all.



Online

I'd say it's ambiguous, depends on circumstances. But mostly the furries are meme materials, nothing too serious.


Spoiler



Most common impression is that of the popular meme, combined with additional factors resulting in as "Furries are suspiciously wealthy so we might as well keep mishaps outta the way with these people."

Another impression being kink-wise. Many people won't acknowledge the critical separation between anthro creatures and actual animals, leading to the false belief of "Furries may potentially be zoophiles". Yes, typical. But such resistance towards furries is insignificant, to the point it's almost like a meme, not serious enough to ring any bells, so far.



Furry is rather a grey area in South Korea, I suppose. Because here in Korea, people are more concentrated on gender discrimination (men versus women) and gender identity discrimination (LGBTQIA+), which are both considered apart from furry fandom stuff.

P.s. These are purely from my personal observations and experiences, it may give you an idea of it, but never completely represents the reality.

P.p.s. It's a sad society that I have to leave a disclaimer so basic in order to get rid of potential crowd picking fights off from such a basic factor... Online Koreans are like this.

Trivia: A furry's worst enemy is another furry with different mindsets. I've seen more furries warring against other furries, than the third parties did.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 11, 2022)

Stray Cat Terry said:


> South Korea.
> 
> TL;DR:
> "It's a hobby, leave them be."
> ...


For me, it's the scars left behind by bad apples.
How does one leave those clues behind?
Why are there more wars among the furries there?


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## Goon the frank (Sep 12, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Anyone there furries by any chance?


Maybe? Seems like no one considers themselves a furry, but one of the artists has done anthro art


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## Judge Spear (Sep 12, 2022)

Chomby said:


> Man I don't know. Probably.


It's gotta be this one.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 12, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> It's gotta be this one.


How is this related to the topic?


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## Judge Spear (Sep 12, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> How is this related to the topic?


Lighten the fuck up.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 12, 2022)

Judge Spear said:


> Lighten the fuck up.


Mind elaborating on that?
BTW, how is a dude eating a bag of chips supposed to do anything related to the topic also?


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 12, 2022)

I'm in IT and Engineering so given any five of us:  two are in the closet professing they are not furries while rocking back and forth with their plushies, 1 is out, 1 somehow has no idea what a furry is, 1 is in denial, and all 5 will make jokes about furries and everyone else in general.  Which is hilarious because I think IT pros are also 1 in 5  chance of being QUILTBAG.  We are just super independent

Want a long, happy, and stable life with an engineer?  Better not say anything about Chewbacca, Gadget Hackwrench, Cheetara, Panthro, Bruce, Donatello, Hagravens.....

Anything else is politics and the Furry running the help desk is quite capable of making your work life hell enough without the help of Furries behind the scenes keeping that network going.


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## Bababooey (Sep 12, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Mind elaborating on that?
> BTW, how is a dude eating a bag of chips supposed to do anything related to the topic also?


It's my reaction to said topic. Now you know exactly how I feel and you should find that very deep and meaningful for said topic. I hope the world becomes super pog for furries and such amen god bless.


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## Pomorek (Sep 12, 2022)

Stray Cat Terry said:


> P.p.s. It's a sad society that I have to leave a disclaimer so basic in order to get rid of potential crowd picking fights off from such a basic factor... Online Koreans are like this.
> 
> Trivia: A furry's worst enemy is another furry with different mindsets. I've seen more furries warring against other furries, than the third parties did.


Huh, sounds like Poland a lot! Starting unneeded online fights over tiniest of things. Probably other culturally close countries too, for example just the last evening I've seen someone with Romanian name exhibiting such behaviors.


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## Filter (Sep 12, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Same goes for where I live.
> That kind of meetup is something I'd love to go to, as fursuiting's my thing.
> Zootopia still popular, even though it's not showing in theaters anymore?
> I do know of some who are open about it. How does one handle it with grace, and other giving benefit of the doubt adds to their charm? Experience with having false rumors spread about you? How do you handle that?
> BTW, I'm also an introvert too.


It does look like those "weirdos" are having fun. I've considered bringing my partial partial (no handpaws yet) and hanging out. Maybe someday.

Zootopia comes up in conversation with random people. Maybe it's not current, but it's still on the cultural radar.

Having friends or family who share the hobby, and are otherwise decent people, seems to help. Also, having a PhD or other similarly high credential can offset the furry stigma somewhat, from what I've seen. Others get by on a kind of charisma and gravitas. They tend to be more extroverted and outgoing.

How do I handle rumors? These days, I try to outlast them, or just let them go long enough until it becomes obvious that they're false. Sometimes, I get confrontational, but I try to avoid that as it draws too much attention. If someone is going to believe something so wrong, it's unlikely that I will be able to convince them otherwise. That's ultimately their problem. Not mine.



Minerva_Minx said:


> I'm in IT and Engineering so given any five of us:  two are in the closet professing they are not furries while rocking back and forth with their plushies, 1 is out, 1 somehow has no idea what a furry is, 1 is in denial, and all 5 will make jokes about furries and everyone else in general.  Which is hilarious because I think IT pros are also 1 in 5  chance of being QUILTBAG.  We are just super independent
> 
> Want a long, happy, and stable life with an engineer?  Better not say anything about Chewbacca, Gadget Hackwrench, Cheetara, Panthro, Bruce, Donatello, Hagravens.....
> 
> Anything else is politics and the Furry running the help desk is quite capable of making your work life hell enough without the help of Furries behind the scenes keeping that network going.


Have I mentioned that I'm jealous of your work situation? Without giving too much away, I find myself at the intersection of IT, Computer Science, and Engineering. You'd think I'd encounter more furries, or at least more who are open about it, but nope. The boss vociferously hates furries. Like, full-blown hate. He also calls others bigots for having any kind of faith in a higher power, while making racist, sexist, homophobic, and ageist remarks himself. The type that can get away with anything, while easily rising through the ranks. I feel stifled and awkward about this, but deal with it because I get to play with cool toys and have a hand in their development. It's incredibly frustrating, because if I leave I may not have such great opportunities to network, troubleshoot, and design. Maybe I'm not his direct target (unlike some of my coworkers), but because I stand up for myself and others, I have to deal with bizarre assumptions and accusations about me. Thankfully, I'm good at what I do, and let my actions do the talking.

To give an example, he insinuated that I'm into sex dolls. I don't have, nor have I ever had, a sex doll. No plans for getting one in the future either, but I think it's okay if somebody is into that sort of thing. None of my business, really, so who cares? They're not hurting anybody. I'm not going to get defensive if he has a problem with this, and he's a good boss in other ways, but WTH.

For what it's worth, I've met a scalie and others through my R&D side gig. It doesn't pay as well, due to fewer hours, but provides opportunities for making new things and getting published. The "bosses" there are really cool, although technically I'm my own boss there. And yeah, we are super independent.

This should probably have gone in the "Vent" thread. Oh well. lol


----------



## Pomorek (Sep 12, 2022)

Filter said:


> It does look like those "weirdos" are having fun. I've considered bringing my partial partial (no handpaws yet) and hanging out. Maybe someday.
> 
> Zootopia comes up in conversation with random people. Maybe it's not current, but it's still on the cultural radar.
> 
> ...


Whoa, sounds like your boss has some real problems with himself. And is taking them out not just on furries but basically on anything that moves. How such people can go on and not literally detonate from all the inner hatred is beyond me...

But yeah, I've been in 2 different IT-ish positions so far, in very different locations, and no hint of other fandom members around.


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 12, 2022)

Filter said:


> It does look like those "weirdos" are having fun. I've considered bringing my partial partial (no handpaws yet) and hanging out. Maybe someday.
> 
> Zootopia comes up in conversation with random people. Maybe it's not current, but it's still on the cultural radar.
> 
> ...


I'd Bet good money DnD is an occasional topic of conversation especially if an unknown or hostile person is around.  Both game and other.


Pomorek said:


> Whoa, sounds like your boss has some real problems with himself. And is taking them out not just on furries but basically on anything that moves. How such people can go on and not literally detonate from all the inner hatred is beyond me...
> 
> But yeah, I've been in 2 different IT-ish positions so far, in very different locations, and no hint of other fandom members around.


Try DnD.

Surprised neither has heard Eeyore in the office.


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## Filter (Sep 12, 2022)

Pomorek said:


> Whoa, sounds like your boss has some real problems with himself. And is taking them out not just on furries but basically on anything that moves. How such people can go on and not literally detonate from all the inner hatred is beyond me...
> 
> But yeah, I've been in 2 different IT-ish positions so far, in very different locations, and no hint of other fandom members around.


A lot of it does seem to be projection, which says more about him that it does about us. I give him the benefit more than I would if he wasn't the boss.

The hierarchy where I work is mostly flat. That's usually a good thing, as I like equality in a team. He mostly manages people, however, and his boss isn't even technical, so the only way out is to look elsewhere. Still, I get to play with the fun stuff and I'm paid for it. He says I'm welcome to stay as long as I want to.



Minerva_Minx said:


> I'd Bet good money DnD is an occasional topic of conversation especially if an unknown or hostile person is around.  Both game and other.


That's how I found the scalie at my other job. Or, rather, how he outed himself as one.


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## TrishaCat (Sep 12, 2022)

The only time I see people not being accepting of furries is in edgy too online spaces or whenever a furry does something terrible. Furries are pretty accepted in my experience.
I live in freedomland.


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 12, 2022)

Filter said:


> A lot of it does seem to be projection, which says more about him that it does about us. I give him the benefit more than I would if he wasn't the boss.
> 
> The hierarchy where I work is mostly flat. That's usually a good thing, as I like equality in a team. He mostly manages people, however, and his boss isn't even technical, so the only way out is to look elsewhere. Still, I get to play with the fun stuff and I'm paid for it. He says I'm welcome to stay as long as I want to.
> 
> ...


We learned from Dorothy.


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## Kinguyakki (Sep 14, 2022)

I live in an area where a "mature adult" heterosexual man with a good income and comfortable lifestyle should keep "furry" involvement from being known to neighbors, friends, co-workers.  Either they don't know what furries are, or they hate/fear furries because of something they saw on television or the Internet.  I really have no interest in trying to change their minds.


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## Troj (Sep 14, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Hope they were on the right side of the internet or fandom to know about it, not that "other" side.



Things are getting noticeably better! Within the past two years, I can only recall three interactions offhand where a person drew an immediate connection between furries and sex--and of those three, I can remember one of those people being extremely polite and appropriate about asking me to confirm or deny what they'd heard, and to please explain that aspect to them if there was any truth to what they'd heard. (The other two people were rude and snarky in the usual way.)


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## Connor J. Coyote (Sep 16, 2022)

Filter said:


> Some people can be totally open about their involvement with the fandom, and handle it with grace. Others give them the benefit of the doubt, and it adds to their charm.





LunaGryph said:


> I do know of some who are open about it. How does one handle it with grace, and other giving benefit of the doubt adds to their charm?


I'm not sure what handling it with "grace" means frankly....... if it means just being honest about it to people when they ask why one is wearing a fursuit in the middle of a movie theater (like Zootopia) then I guess that makes sense to me. But handling things "with grace" doesn't mean one needs to put up a front and be phoney about it either, and act all apologetic for being a Fandom member (I don't think).

And if our explanations to them are polite, and some people are still nasty and rude about it afterwards, then.... all one can really do is shrug it off and walk away at that point. Obviously, if one doesn't feel safe to explain things at all, then don't. But don't be surprised either when confused people may come up to you in a crowded theater or mall and ask you questions if you're wearing a suit as you get your popcorn.


LunaGryph said:


> Experience with having false rumors spread about you? How do you handle that?


Well, (in my mind) you have two options there......  you can either return the favor and do the same thing to the ones that have "wronged you" and in essence, spread more gossipy rumors *about them* in an effort to even the playing field; which in turn, makes the mis-information fly both ways at that point.

Or - you can simply walk away, ignore it (because it's probably not worth it anyways) and do like I freqently do: call up a few close friends (that I trust), and.... after that, do things with other people that I enjoy..... like artwork, a good meal, my mate, my family, etcetera....... (as there's better things to worry about in life frankly). 






LunaGryph said:


> BTW, I'm also an introvert too.


Welcome to the club.


LunaGryph said:


> BTW, how is a dude eating a bag of chips supposed to do anything related to the topic also?


It can go with the shown beer above.
----------------------------------


Pomorek said:


> Whoa, sounds like your boss has some real problems with himself. And is taking them out not just on furries but basically on anything that moves. How such people can go on and not literally detonate from all the inner hatred is beyond me...


While it may be a bit unsettling, he could just be telling it like it is from his vantage point. Like I said here:


Connor J. Coyote said:


> That's an honest boss


He sounds crass to me in some ways, but.... if he's the boss and she enjoys her job than she may need to just "grin and bear it" until either the boss moves on, or - she finds a better position. And at that point we can say welcome to the club also, because *a lot of us* deal with supervisors, colleagues, and co-workers that we'd rather not deal with, but for the sake of our schooling and our careers we often have to make the best of things, keeping in mind our own personal goals that should outweigh any personality conflicts.

If he's sexist and a harasser on the other hand, than - that's something to report to his superiors and even one's lawyer..... but if he's just too crude for comfort, than...... all one can really do (when they're not looking at us of course) is roll one's eyes after hearing their comments, and just enjoy that cushy job and nice paycheck for what it's worth.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 16, 2022)

Troj said:


> Things are getting noticeably better! Within the past two years, I can only recall three interactions offhand where a person drew an immediate connection between furries and sex--and of those three, I can remember one of those people being extremely polite and appropriate about asking me to confirm or deny what they'd heard, and to please explain that aspect to them if there was any truth to what they'd heard. (The other two people were rude and snarky in the usual way.)


Hmm . . . Interesting . . . Were you fursuiting in public during these interactions?
Did bother you when you encountered those rude and snarky people?


Kinguyakki said:


> I live in an area where a "mature adult" heterosexual man with a good income and comfortable lifestyle should keep "furry" involvement from being known to neighbors, friends, co-workers.  Either they don't know what furries are, or they hate/fear furries because of something they saw on television or the Internet.  I really have no interest in trying to change their minds.


That's some hardcore stereotypes there. Just because someone's hetero or homo doesn't mean that they need to keep their furry involvement away from others. It really should be up to the individual to choose what to do about it. If they want to express it to someone, then they should. 


Connor J. Coyote said:


> I'm not sure what handling it with "grace" means frankly....... if it means just being honest about it to people when they ask why one is wearing a fursuit in the middle of a movie theater (like Zootopia) then I guess that makes sense to me. But handling things "with grace" doesn't mean one needs to put up a front and be phoney about it either, and act all apologetic for being a Fandom member (I don't think).
> 
> And if our explanations to them are polite, and some people are still nasty and rude about it afterwards, then.... all one can really do is shrug it off and walk away at that point. Obviously, if one doesn't feel safe to explain things at all, then don't. But don't be surprised either when confused people may come up to you in a crowded theater or mall and ask you questions if you're wearing a suit as you get your popcorn.
> 
> ...


I saw Zootopia in theaters, and if I had thought about doing it for a second time and was more into furries than now, I would've tried to do it in fursuit, but apparently, my theater doesn't allow it, and I don't know anyone who can be my handler. 
How would you explain it to others? If the jaw is static, would it be still be okay to talk with or without the head in that setting? 
Isn't spreading more rumors the reaction that the other person wants?


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## Baron Tredegar (Sep 16, 2022)

I live in the state of Georgia where we had a fringe governors candidate campaign against furries and spread the litterbox rumors. It should also be worth noting homophobia is still big where I live.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 17, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> I live in the state of Georgia where we had a fringe governors candidate campaign against furries and spread the litterbox rumors. It should also be worth noting homophobia is still big where I live.


I remember reading articles on the litterbox thing. I'm pretty sure that it's all based on assumptions created by unreliable sources. I'm not surprised that politicans have a thing against furries. However, I dunno if the politicians from where I live have a thing against too, which I also wouldn't be surprised if it was also the case. As far as what I know about homophobia, I don't think that it's a big thing, as it's pretty accepting. Surprisingly, despite the bad rep that they give, fur cons have been held there before, instead of pulling-out and finding other venues elsewhere due to it.
Did you happen to know about a councilmember who resigned for their furry affiliations?


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## Smityyyy (Sep 17, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> I remember reading articles on the litterbox thing. I'm pretty sure that it's all based on assumptions created by unreliable sources. I'm not surprised that politicans have a thing against furries. However, I dunno if the politicians from where I live have a thing against too, which I also wouldn't be surprised if it was also the case. As far as what I know about homophobia, I don't think that it's a big thing, as it's pretty accepting. Surprisingly, despite the bad rep that they give, fur cons have been held there before, instead of pulling-out and finding other venues elsewhere due to it.
> Did you happen to know about a councilmember who resigned for their furry affiliations?



It was 100% a fake thing propagated by anti-transgender individuals. They started the story by claiming people were identifying their gender as “furry” or “cat” and demanding litter boxes (probably to mock the whole trans bathroom debate) to be added. From there it spun out into random other stories, such as claims that furries were demanding this.

Either way, totally not real, and another example of fundie boomers falling for stupid rage-bait online and then drumming up some fabricated culture war over it.

Here’s a quick article on the topic:









						Anti-trans litter box rumor is ‘harming our LGBTQ+ kids,’ advocates say ⋆ Michigan Advance
					

After a rumor that students who “identify as cats” were using litter boxes was sparked at a Midland Public Schools school board meeting in December, LGBTQ+ advocates across the state are concerned about how this will affect transgender youth.  At a Dec. 20 meeting, Midland resident Lisa Kawiecki...




					michiganadvance.com


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## Troj (Sep 18, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Hmm . . . Interesting . . . Were you fursuiting in public during these interactions?
> Did bother you when you encountered those rude and snarky people?



Yup, was fursuiting in public, and yes, it usually bothers me _unless_ the person is polite and deferential when broaching the subject, as that one person was. I try to strike a balance between educating people and showing that I have a sense of humor about these things, and I'll just end the interaction if people are just nasty or rude.


Filter said:


> The boss vociferously hates furries. Like, full-blown hate. He also calls others bigots for having any kind of faith in a higher power, while making racist, sexist, homophobic, and ageist remarks himself. The type that can get away with anything, while easily rising through the ranks. I feel stifled and awkward about this, but deal with it because I get to play with cool toys and have a hand in their development. It's incredibly frustrating, because if I leave I may not have such great opportunities to network, troubleshoot, and design. Maybe I'm not his direct target (unlike some of my coworkers), but because I stand up for myself and others, I have to deal with bizarre assumptions and accusations about me. Thankfully, I'm good at what I do, and let my actions do the talking.
> 
> To give an example, he insinuated that I'm into sex dolls. I don't have, nor have I ever had, a sex doll. No plans for getting one in the future either, but I think it's okay if somebody is into that sort of thing. None of my business, really, so who cares? They're not hurting anybody. I'm not going to get defensive if he has a problem with this, and he's a good boss in other ways, but WTH.



Your boss sounds like the kind of smug, loudmouthed, mansplaining dick one sometimes unfortunately encounters in STEM. (It's also a sad reminder that atheists aren't inherently any more rational or open-minded just because they're "skeptics.") Also, some of his comments and behavior frankly could be considered harassment, discrimination, and/or creating a hostile workplace, IMHO.

With people like that, I always have to wonder what kinds of skeletons they have in their closet to be so keen on dunking on everybody else!


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## ben909 (Sep 18, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> It was 100% a fake thing propagated by anti-transgender individuals. They started the story by claiming people were identifying their gender as “furry” or “cat” and demanding litter boxes (probably to mock the whole trans bathroom debate) to be added. From there it spun out into random other stories, such as claims that furries were demanding this.
> 
> Either way, totally not real, and another example of fundie boomers falling for stupid rage-bait online and then drumming up some fabricated culture war over it.
> 
> ...


was that ever in question, it was made as an "attach helicopter" like comment when it first came into existence 
(not going to reply many times though, personal rule to avoid pointless agreements that stem from these topics)


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## LunaGryph (Sep 18, 2022)

Filter said:


> Have I mentioned that I'm jealous of your work situation? Without giving too much away, I find myself at the intersection of IT, Computer Science, and Engineering. You'd think I'd encounter more furries, or at least more who are open about it, but nope. The boss vociferously hates furries. Like, full-blown hate. He also calls others bigots for having any kind of faith in a higher power, while making racist, sexist, homophobic, and ageist remarks himself. The type that can get away with anything, while easily rising through the ranks. I feel stifled and awkward about this, but deal with it because I get to play with cool toys and have a hand in their development. It's incredibly frustrating, because if I leave I may not have such great opportunities to network, troubleshoot, and design. Maybe I'm not his direct target (unlike some of my coworkers), but because I stand up for myself and others, I have to deal with bizarre assumptions and accusations about me. Thankfully, I'm good at what I do, and let my actions do the talking.
> 
> To give an example, he insinuated that I'm into sex dolls. I don't have, nor have I ever had, a sex doll. No plans for getting one in the future either, but I think it's okay if somebody is into that sort of thing. None of my business, really, so who cares? They're not hurting anybody. I'm not going to get defensive if he has a problem with this, and he's a good boss in other ways, but WTH.
> 
> ...


This is why I avoid bringing-up the subject of furries to anyone, especially at my workplace. My job involves handling kids as part of an afterschool program. Should I bring this up with anyone there, especially with my boss, chances are that I'm going to get fired and really hurt my future for anything, since they may hold that bad image of furries and may use it an excuse to fire anyone that's affiliated with those groups. It gets worse when kids are around to hear the workers talk about it. If my co-workers see me fursuiting in public, whether in the general public areas or at an event, chances are that they might turn me in and get fired. I know one of the workers there who attends Pride events yearly, and if I were to fursuit there with exposed skin or just having the knowledge in general, they can do that. BTW, if I were to find out my boss's take on furries or what would happen if someone were to bring-it up with any of the kids, other workers, or the boss, I'd let someone else be the bait on that, and I'll just watch on the side and see what happens. TBH, wouldn't be surprised if they did get fired though . . . However, if things go well, then I'd consider jumping in on the fun and go with the flow from there to see how things unfold from that point onwards. Hopefully it gets fun and interesting . . .


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## Turbid_Cyno (Sep 19, 2022)

One of my bosses made a remark about furries being weirdos a few weeks back. I'm pretty certain my life at work would suck very badly if they found out LOL

I work in Logistics and Warehousing.


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## Eremurus (Sep 19, 2022)

The average person not in the fandom, doesn't understand what a furry is. They think furries are zoos, or otherkins. We aren't. We just have anthropomorphic fursonas.

So I don't think there's any point in telling others not in the fandom that you are a furry. It's not going to accomplish anything. It's like being an extreme lawnmower enthusiast; you're gonna have to talk to other extreme lawnmower enthusiasts to establish any ground.


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## spoinkledoinkers (Sep 19, 2022)

Southern US, of course I don't represent every southerner ever but i think its safe to assume most folks here probably aren't too keen on it lol. Or probably much more commonly, don't even know what it is. I personally know two furries here though. Also, I'm not trying to sound whiny but we have two cons here. Neither are furry related. Nothing against general cons it's definitely still a good time, and I'm more than grateful to actually have something to do here. But I feel the cons I'm speaking of are probably more anime dude bro like


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## LunaGryph (Sep 19, 2022)

spoinkledoinkers said:


> Southern US, of course I don't represent every southerner ever but i think its safe to assume most folks here probably aren't too keen on it lol. Or probably much more commonly, don't even know what it is. I personally know two furries here though. Also, I'm not trying to sound whiny but we have two cons here. Neither are furry related. Nothing against general cons it's definitely still a good time, and I'm more than grateful to actually have something to do here. But I feel the cons I'm speaking of are probably more anime dude bro like


Same also goes for where I'm from. Dunno any furries, but I know that there's a furry group that exists. I only know of one con and for most part, it's anime-related, even though there has been fursuiters there before.


Eremurus said:


> The average person not in the fandom, doesn't understand what a furry is. They think furries are zoos, or otherkins. We aren't. We just have anthropomorphic fursonas.
> 
> So I don't think there's any point in telling others not in the fandom that you are a furry. It's not going to accomplish anything. It's like being an extreme lawnmower enthusiast; you're gonna have to talk to other extreme lawnmower enthusiasts to establish any ground.


Prime reason why I don't bother talking about furries to anyone. I find that doing that is a waste of time, unless the other person is very interested in knowing what they are and the confidence that they're not doing it for malicious intents.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Sep 20, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> I saw Zootopia in theaters, and if I had thought about doing it for a second time and was more into furries than now, I would've tried to do it in fursuit, but apparently, my theater doesn't allow it, and I don't know anyone who can be my handler.


Frankly on a personal level, I probably wouldn't suit in a crowded theater at any time (regardless of whatever is playing); as the heat inside these suits can become quite difficult, if not downright unbearable at times, and in a hot stuffy theater, it's probably ten times worse in that environment.

But hey, different strokes for different folks..... I'm not one to begrudge those that wish to do so, and in fact, the local Zootopia screening here in my local community a few years back had many people there in suits..... and it could probably be said that the majority of the attendees were in suit. And so, if it's fun for them and something they enjoy, then so be it I guess.

For me personally though, thanks but no thanks.

If I don't pass out from heat exhaustion and fatigue first, then I'll probably be so dehydrated that I'll need an IV afterwards. Of course, in a dark room one can always take off the head and watch the film, which is probably what I would've done had I taken Connor with me in that outing.

And if it's dark enough, then one can "spoil the magic" a little probably and not worry about it; and given the potential for overheating and dehydration it's probably wise to do so, many of us could say.


LunaGryph said:


> How would you explain it to others? If the jaw is static, would it be still be okay to talk with or without the head in that setting?


Well, some people insist, and say that talking (while one is in suit) is "spoiling the magic" also; like taking the head off is. I disagree there myself...... in fact, I think talking in suit actually compliments the character more and gives my sona a bit more life to it; which may enrich the experience others may have when they encounter me.

And so, interacting with passersby when I'm in suit verbally is part of the deal, at least for me anyways...... as I think it gives my sona Connor a bit more personality also, instead of me just standing there like a statue and miming things when I try to communicate (like some others frequently do).


LunaGryph said:


> Isn't spreading more rumors the reaction that the other person wants?


Maybe..... it's hard to speculate at times, and "get into the heads" of one's critics as far as their motivations go - when they say the things they do...... in any case, I always say there's better things to focus on and other people to interact with, that's much more fulfilling to me.

And thus by ignoring it, in my mind - one is accomplishing two things: (one): you're focusing on said better things and nicer people to interact with; and (two): if it's true (Iike you say) that it's "what the other person wants" then it's probably better to not give them the satisfaction anyway. ☺


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## LunaGryph (Sep 20, 2022)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Frankly on a personal level, I probably wouldn't suit in a crowded theater at any time (regardless of whatever is playing); as the heat inside these suits can become quite difficult, if not downright unbearable at times, and in a hot stuffy theater, it's probably ten times worse in that environment.
> 
> But hey, different strokes for different folks..... I'm not one to begrudge those that wish to do so, and in fact, the local Zootopia screening here in my local community a few years back had many people there in suits..... and it could probably be said that the majority of the attendees were in suit. And so, if it's fun for them and something they enjoy, then so be it I guess.
> 
> ...


Hmm . . . Good point.
On the other hand, using non-verbal communication methods while in suit can be really tough when trying to explain or answer very complicated or complex questions, especially when neither party knows ASL (American Sign Language), which makes talking in suit easier. However, I remember from reading from this guide was that if a fursuiter were to talk in suit around kids, they'll try to make them talk more. Some people can also be freaked out by it. Supposedly, if it's an emergency, then it's likely okay to do it, regardless of jaw type. By all means, "standing there and miming things" can be creepy. Does your fursuit have a static or moving jaw?


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## Troj (Sep 20, 2022)

I was a silent suiter for years, and ultimately realized that talking makes the experience safer and more fun for me, allows me to crack jokes that I wouldn't be able to make otherwise, and helps to put certain people at ease who'd otherwise find me "creepy" or "cringe." It helps that my jaw does actually move slightly. 

As for talking about the fandom, while it's always important to consider time, place, and your audience before info-dumping or monopolizing a conversation, I reckon if somebody gets to hold court about anime, skiing, yoga, football, Mindfulness Meditation, or the show they're currently bingeing, I have just as much of a right to talk about what I enjoy and what gives me life.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 20, 2022)

Troj said:


> I was a silent suiter for years, and ultimately realized that talking makes the experience safer and more fun for me, allows me to crack jokes that I wouldn't be able to make otherwise, and helps to put certain people at ease who'd otherwise find me "creepy" or "cringe." It helps that my jaw does actually move slightly.
> 
> As for talking about the fandom, while it's always important to consider time, place, and your audience before info-dumping or monopolizing a conversation, I reckon if somebody gets to hold court about anime, skiing, yoga, football, Mindfulness Meditation, or the show they're currently bingeing, I have just as much of a right to talk about what I enjoy and what gives me life.


Overall, is your fursuit head's jaw static or moving?
How did you find out that talking in suit does make things easier? Has anyone got freaked-out by you talking in suit? Have you tried this to kids before?
Is furries something that you enjoy and gives you life?


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## Troj (Sep 20, 2022)

My jaw moves slightly, or so people tell me. I've had multiple people express awe that my mouth moves when I talk, at least.

Talking in suit allows me to joke with people, carry on extended conversations that are often extremely interesting, reassure adults that I'm not a dangerous pedo, reassure children that I'm not a literal monster, and inspire some people to think twice before trying to harass or assault me. 

And, yes, the furry fandom and fursuiting comprises a sizable part of my life that is easily as deep and impactful as some people's relationship to football or crocheting.


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## RubberfemAsriel (Sep 20, 2022)

In Virginia untied states where i live it doesn't really look like they accept furrys.


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## Judge Spear (Sep 20, 2022)

i wanna slurp judy hopps legs like big noodles


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## LunaGryph (Sep 21, 2022)

Troj said:


> My jaw moves slightly, or so people tell me. I've had multiple people express awe that my mouth moves when I talk, at least.
> 
> Talking in suit allows me to joke with people, carry on extended conversations that are often extremely interesting, reassure adults that I'm not a dangerous pedo, reassure children that I'm not a literal monster, and inspire some people to think twice before trying to harass or assault me.
> 
> And, yes, the furry fandom and fursuiting comprises a sizable part of my life that is easily as deep and impactful as some people's relationship to football or crocheting.


Sounds like you're really comfortable talking in suit. Prior to that, did you consider the con side of it (e.g., breaking magic, potentially scaring good/innocent people off, etc.)?
When you talk in suit, do you alter your voice or keep it the same as your normal one? Do you do it in all settings or at specific settings? Is there a time that you would revert back to silent suiting?
I'm guessing that you're comfortable expressing your furry hobby to anyone? Have you been discriminated because of that hobby?


RubberfemAsriel said:


> In Virginia untied states where i live it doesn't really look like they accept furrys.


Mines a hard one. How can you tell that they don't accept it?


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## Troj (Sep 21, 2022)

When talking in suit, I usually will raise my voice an octave to sound "cuter." When chatting with people over an extended period of time, I'll let my voice gradually drop down to my normal register.

The first time I talked in suit, it was because I was tired of everyone asking if I was a chicken or a duck. I soon realized that being able to talk imbued my character with extra life and personality and gave me even greater room for expression. Originally, yes, I was worried about "breaking the magic" in some form, because silent suiting was how I'd been "trained."

I will sometimes go silent or strictly limit what I say, especially when I'm tired, or when I want to surprise someone by saying something unexpected.

I'm comfortable talking about the furry fandom with most people these days, yes. I try not to overwhelm or bore most people with the topic unless they seem genuinely interested, and I typically won't bring it up around people who strike me as judgmental or closed-minded. I also avoid discussing it in more professional settings unless a person asks me about it and/or a certain level of mutual trust, rapport, and respect has been established. I've fortunately reached a stage in my life where even if I encounter the occasional judgmental or stuffy person,  most can't really hurt or affect me in any meaningful way.


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## AniwayasSong (Sep 21, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> One day, as I was curiously looking around the internet for how accepted furries are where I live, I found this study talking about its acceptance by US state. If you're from the US, I'd like to know how things have changed since that study was conducted. Otherwise, for those from other countries, I'd like to know how much furries have been accepted in your community or society you're from. In both cases, I'd also like to know why it's been like that.


It still astonishes me, reading about or actually witnessing any prejudice against the overall 'Furry Fandom' by anyone or anything.  Hell, I grew up watching sports that had 'Furry' mascots, and no one batted an eye or ever made a negative comment (that I knew of), seeing their antics and stuff.  Same with anything 'Disney' or related, and parades had 'Furry' characters (usually depicting something from a movie, or story), and hell, just look at Halloween?!  A 'Pagan Ritual' if ever there was one, but one that the 'Church' couldn't eradicate no matter how hard they try/ied!
Going further back (which is where I entered into the Anthro realm), look at ancient history!  From Meso-America, Egypt, the Mediterranean, Europe, Africa, hell, every Continent but Antarctica has an amazing canvas of Anthro-related mythos/stories!  People took that quite seriously and I imagine jokes still happened, but they weren't being violent about it (within their own societies at least).
Modern day seems to have been a victim of its own bad planning, if I try to put a kind word in?  With everyone having a camera and the internet being what it is, people are going to capture and then share anything 'Bad' they catch, and everyone knows how fast bad news travels!  So the things that did happen at some of the Cons/Elsewhere painted an extremely negative picture on the entire Fandom.  Individuals associated with the Furry World were outted doing some pretty messed-up shit in the real world, which only added more fuel to the prejudice/persecution of the outside world.  It is hardly fair.  Expected, perhaps, but not fair.
Fast forward to the last what, five, seven years or so?  The Cons have done a far better job (overall) in self-policing itself and keeping what should stay in the closet, IN the closet (don't hate on me, you know what I'm talking about!), and now, especially with so many outstanding Fursuiters providing a positive spin on it?  (Thank you 'Duke, Telephone, and ohsomanyothers!).
Like most things in life I look at what someone does, and judge based on that.  I don't give a rat's patootie what skin color they are, what type of plumbing they have (or want), or any of another book-sized listing of superficial stuff that's just people being themselves and standing out in their own independent fashion.
What they DO?  To me, that matters.


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## RubberfemAsriel (Sep 21, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Sounds like you're really comfortable talking in suit. Prior to that, did you consider the con side of it (e.g., breaking magic, potentially scaring good/innocent people off, etc.)?
> When you talk in suit, do you alter your voice or keep it the same as your normal one? Do you do it in all settings or at specific settings? Is there a time that you would revert back to silent suiting?
> I'm guessing that you're comfortable expressing your furry hobby to anyone? Have you been discriminated because of that hobby?
> 
> Mines a hard one. How can you tell that they don't accept it?


They dont allow you to where a fursuit in public and it appears that there not that many furrys in Virginia.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 21, 2022)

RubberfemAsriel said:


> They dont allow you to where a fursuit in public and it appears that there not that many furrys in Virginia.


How do you know that public fursuiting isn't allowed and/or that there may not be a ton of furries in Virginia? Why isn't it allowed?


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## Troj (Sep 21, 2022)

Many parts of the United States have old "anti-mask" laws on the books that were originally meant to discourage KKK gatherings, and which are now used to reel in "suspicious persons" and/or to try to regulate artists and performers so they have to pay a special fee to be recognized as "approved" by the city.









						With Furries And Free Speech In Mind, Burlington Redrafts Anti-Mask Ordinance
					

As Burlington officials plan for the city’s Mardi Gras celebration this weekend, they decided to announce that its anti-mask ordinance – which prohibits…




					www.vermontpublic.org


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## Connor J. Coyote (Sep 22, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Hmm . . . Good point.
> On the other hand, using non-verbal communication methods while in suit can be really tough when trying to explain or answer very complicated or complex questions, especially when neither party knows ASL (American Sign Language), which makes talking in suit easier.


Well, I gave you honest straight answers (as far as I saw it) to your questions, as that's how things work for me as a Fandom member. And so with regards to my feedback, you can certainly take it (if you think it has any merit) or leave it (if you think it's worthless or nonsense). ☺

But nearly everyone who owns a suit will tell you the same thing...... that the heat in these costumes can be unbearable at times, and so - wearing suits in public places has its drawbacks, (that's my point).

But in any case, my sense was (when I read your thread) is that you were asking these questions of people for some sort of feedback from community members on here, as far as how the Fandom works for some of us, and why we particiapte in the things we do and sometimes don't.

And so my feedback is there for you in that regard - for whatever it's worth.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 23, 2022)

Troj said:


> Many parts of the United States have old "anti-mask" laws on the books that were originally meant to discourage KKK gatherings, and which are now used to reel in "suspicious persons" and/or to try to regulate artists and performers so they have to pay a special fee to be recognized as "approved" by the city.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember reading that article a while back. It seems like a way to discourage some people from performing on the streets and get more money. This is one of the reasons why I find public fursuiting in my area to be tough to do, even though I've seen other fursuiters doing it before from social media posts and had seemingly got away with it just fine, for fear that I could be arrested for covering my face in public and/or have to go through the same or similar thing like what they did. 


Troj said:


> When talking in suit, I usually will raise my voice an octave to sound "cuter." When chatting with people over an extended period of time, I'll let my voice gradually drop down to my normal register.
> 
> The first time I talked in suit, it was because I was tired of everyone asking if I was a chicken or a duck. I soon realized that being able to talk imbued my character with extra life and personality and gave me even greater room for expression. Originally, yes, I was worried about "breaking the magic" in some form, because silent suiting was how I'd been "trained."
> 
> ...


I can definetly see how beneficial it is to talk in suit. I bet it makes interactions much more fun and relaxing. Silent suiting is what I've been also naturally "trained" to do, even though I've never had any formal training. It was all based on what mascots do and the fact about preserving the magic. BTW, I was never a mascot before, and I also remember in the past how crazy the fandom was when someone did break the magic.
Does your throat hurt when you try to sound "cuter" in suit? Have you lost your voice from doing that before? When you talk in suit, do you change the way you speak from how you do so normally, as in how you say things or word choices? Do you find that you have to speak louder because the head muffles your voice? Do you find that you get thirsty more quickly from talking in suit? Would you say that it's bad to talk in suit when the jaw is static? Would you also say that the voice has to match the suit? Do you have any advice for first-timers with talking in suit (that I haven't covered so far)? Out of curiosity, have you worn your suit in public before?
BTW, kudos to you for having balls to even try to talk in suit in the first place. Thanks to people like you, I'm looking forward to giving it a shot one day when I get my chance.


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## straferz (Sep 23, 2022)

I live in a highly conservative rural area, and furries are usually looked down upon by kids by age, and any adults who are even aware of their existence to begin with. I have a friend who's a furry, and other friends in that friend group are pretty chill about it as well. But other than that, I don't really know anyone in my area who's either a furry, or has furry friends and are cool with the idea.


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## Troj (Sep 23, 2022)

Re: Talking, it doesn't hurt to increase the pitch of my voice, but I do try to adjust my pitch so that people (especially those with possible hearing loss) can hear me. 

Yes, I think talking can definitely dehydrate me faster, and I will limit my talking as I become tired, out of breath, or dehydrated. 

My character performance is probably a bit inconsistent if you're a purist, but I try to strike a balance of seeming like a larger-than-life cutesy cartoon animal and a prehistoric creature that just so happens to be a "regular person," and I can often milk a lot of comedy out of that contrast. I'd say the longer an interaction or conversation goes on with someone (especially an adult), the more I tend to drop into my actual self. 

In my opinion, I think it's better if the suit can produce the illusion of talking, yes, and it helps if the voice seems to either match the character _or _clash with your expectations for the character in a funny way---either way, what counts is that the voice helps to_ create the character_, I think. 

95% of the suiting I do is public suiting, so most of my experiences are from interacting with the general public, yes. 

My advice would be to think about your character and how you want them to come across to the people you interact with. What impressions and what feelings do you want to create in the people you interact with?


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## LunaGryph (Sep 23, 2022)

straferz said:


> I live in a highly conservative rural area, and furries are usually looked down upon by kids by age, and any adults who are even aware of their existence to begin with. I have a friend who's a furry, and other friends in that friend group are pretty chill about it as well. But other than that, I don't really know anyone in my area who's either a furry, or has furry friends and are cool with the idea.


For most part same goes for me, but I don't have any furry friends myself, nor do I know anyone that is one. However, there's a group that I know of that exists in my area. How do you know that you live in a conservative area?


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## LunaGryph (Sep 23, 2022)

Troj said:


> Re: Talking, it doesn't hurt to increase the pitch of my voice, but I do try to adjust my pitch so that people (especially those with possible hearing loss) can hear me.
> 
> Yes, I think talking can definitely dehydrate me faster, and I will limit my talking as I become tired, out of breath, or dehydrated.
> 
> ...


Do you find tiring to act not as yourself, but rather as your character?

Getting dehydrated while talking in suit is another reason why I kinda don't like doing it. Maybe I should only do it in emergencies at the very least?  

TBH, I'm not a complete purist. As for me, I've never fursuited anywhere outside my place, but when it comes to performance, I tend to veer on the side of just being myself, as I find doing that easier, which also includes talking and acting regularly as I would without the suit. However, unlike my regular self, this one's on the extroverted side. Dunno if that causes any problems though, even if it contrasts. I happen to know another that does just that. Producing that illusion is near impossible for me since all of the suits that I own have heads that are static, so dunno if it'd cause some problems when I talk in them. What makes a voice match and/or clash the character to create it?

Surprised that you fursuit a lot in public! Just wanted to ask, but is it legal where you live to fursuit in public? Have you checked your local laws to make sure that it's legal? Have you worn your suit in a business establishment before? For most of your interactions in public, has it been positive or negative? Were you nervous when you first did it?


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## Troj (Sep 23, 2022)

Interacting with children sometimes requires a lot of energy and focus, because they can be unpredictable and hard to read, and because I do try to stay in character for them and remain engaging and fun at all times. 

In the warmer months, I wear a Camelbak (a hydration bladder) on my back that helps me to stay hydrated. 

And I reckon what makes a character "work" or not can sometimes be both subjective and hard to describe---but, I think there are lots of potential paths to success in that regard. I reckon if you're at all uncertain, you can get feedback from others in a pinch. 

My state has never had anti-mask laws, and if it weren't legal otherwise, I would've been arrested at least a decade ago! I only have to worry about not violating trespassing and loitering laws or running afoul of nosy Karens who think the police are their personal servants.

I try to be careful with businesses, because they can sometimes be touchy, and because I also don't want to accidentally break anything. I will sometimes fursuit inside of businesses if I am invited inside or know the owners or employees, or if it's Halloween. 

Most interactions are positive, or else I would've quit. Some interactions are negative, but they're fortunately eclipsed and outnumbered by the positive ones. 

My first few mascotting experiences were closely supervised, so I was mainly nervous about overheating or tripping over things. I probably wasn't nervous enough when I first ventured out on my own, honestly!


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## straferz (Sep 23, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> How do you know that you live in a conservative area?


My area is roughly 80-90% Catholic. Most boys around my age don't seem too prejudiced, but they have frequently mocked 'sjw' behaviour and stuff like that, which to me is a sign that they're either centre-right or right-wing. However, one kid I know apparently once said that they don't get trans people, and disagree with their existence. But from what I know, he was pretty civil about it, so I won't hold any of his thoughts against him; even though I personally disagree.

Living in an environment like this is as a centre-left person is kind of tough sometimes though. I will say that I'm a fairly privileged person; white, cis-gendered, etc. But despite that, I still happen to be LGBTQ+, and am neurodivergent. So I'm often worried to come out as those things, because I fear that people in my friend-space might label me a 'snowflake'.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 23, 2022)

Rural areas of New York State here.... not way up in the mountains but within an hour's drive of the notable cities....

....I've seen like a handful of furries at a non-furry convention (a gaming convention, to be exact - so I can see a possible loophole if I went as a video game character, but these particular furries were NOT) and I think I saw someone dressed as Tony the Tiger ONCE while doing an inventory at a Walmart some years ago.  There's... it's impossible for me to truly gauge it, but I can tell it's probably not really accepted around here.

There's quite a few of _that_ type of Catholic and a noticeable number of _that_ type of conspiracy-theory "right" winger around where I am.  So being autistic and _likely_ being at least gay at this point, I'm probably not truly safe.


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## straferz (Sep 23, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Rural areas of New York State here.... not way up in the mountains but within an hour's drive of the notable cities....
> 
> ....I've seen like a handful of furries at a non-furry convention (a gaming convention, to be exact - so I can see a possible loophole if I went as a video game character, but these particular furries were NOT) and I think I saw someone dressed as Tony the Tiger ONCE while doing an inventory at a Walmart some years ago.  There's... it's impossible for me to truly gauge it, but I can tell it's probably not really accepted around here.


Damn you're kind of lucky compared to me. There's absolutely zero furry conventions within a 2 1/2 hour range from my area. Yeah, there are some in Alberta's capital, Edmonton, and almost definitely Calgary as well, but those cities are so far away, they might as well be in a whole other ballpark. They don't even have gaming conventions here either. The closest thing they have to something like that is a youth centre where you can play video games, and a manga club at the library.


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## x-xuihcoatl (Sep 23, 2022)

Portland, OR - you could fursuit in public and no one would really bat an eye, and if they did I'd doubt it would be in a bad way. I've told plenty of friends and no one reacts negatively, funny enough I've discovered a lot of my friends are also furry or know someone who is- also lots of random furry stickers on the main "trendy" streets with all the graffiti and murals. Soo, I'd say it's a very good city to be a furry in


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## Troj (Sep 23, 2022)

x-xuihcoatl said:


> Portland, OR - you could fursuit in public and no one would really bat an eye, and if they did I'd doubt it would be in a bad way. I've told plenty of friends and no one reacts negatively, funny enough I've discovered a lot of my friends are also furry or know someone who is- also lots of random furry stickers on the main "trendy" streets with all the graffiti and murals. Soo, I'd say it's a very good city to be a furry in



I'd agree--after all, it's home to the Portland Sleestak!


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Every once in awhile, I come across these threads where they make furries seem like an unprotected class-

Like, bruh. No... Its like asking if "knitting or crocheting banned in your State"

Fur suits and the furry fandom is a hobby. It's not persecuted class. And it's very silly to talk about it like it is. Especially coming from someone who is part of a persecuted class/group (Queer, Black, Fat, Femme). Its goofy. Low-key disrespectful to actual persecuted and unprotected classes. 

Now, I will say this. Fur suiting in public (by yourself) is a logistical nightmare. Not really because people find it (weird). But mostly because it's hard to see and move in a lot of these pieces without a handler. 
-Given how expensive suits are, if I somehow got over being fully reliant on someone else to function and move, I would NEVER go out in an uncontrolled space! Risk my three to four THOUSAND dollar, oversized, fucking plushie suit to get dirty? Or damaged incase if I come across some asshole? Or damaged because I can't see where I'm going and I fall over down some stairs.

Y'all are asking the wrong questions here. Wtf-


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## straferz (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Every once in awhile, I come across these threads where they make furries seem like an unprotected class-
> 
> Like, bruh. No... Its like asking if "knitting or crocheting banned in your State"
> 
> ...


That's a good point. At the end of the day, being a furry is simply a hobby, and nothing more. I was just pointing out my struggles with peoples perceptions of the fandom, since it was relevant to the question. It's a bit annoying, but I really could just ignore them tbh. They don't have the right to tell me what I can and can't do


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## LunaGryph (Sep 24, 2022)

Troj said:


> Interacting with children sometimes requires a lot of energy and focus, because they can be unpredictable and hard to read, and because I do try to stay in character for them and remain engaging and fun at all times.
> 
> In the warmer months, I wear a Camelbak (a hydration bladder) on my back that helps me to stay hydrated.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that your first fursuit outing was without a handler? Do you always go out with a handler when public fursuiting? Why do you do more public fursuiting? How would you describe yourself compared to the suit's character itself?

It seems that there are many paths to succeed in getting the right "voice". What have people said about your suit's character in the past? How did you use the feedback for it?

Being invited to a business is pretty nice. Halloween is a great time to fursuit in public. Did you happen to fursuit around a police officer before?

Nice to hear that most of your interactions were positive and the fact that you were a mascot at some point in time If mines were mostly negative, I would've quit too. Do you like fursuiting or mascotting better?

Dunno if my state really has any anti-mask laws in place. I'd hate to be arrested for fursuiting in public without knowing anything about its existence. Police as personal servants to public fursuiters? Sounds crazy and absurd. That's also something I've never heard of before. Who would get that impression anyways? Thought that the police would bust fursuiters for covering their face in public. How long have you been public fursuiting now?


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Fur suits and the furry fandom is a hobby. It's not persecuted class. And it's very silly to talk about it like it is. Especially coming from someone who is part of a persecuted class/group (Queer, Black, Fat, Femme). Its goofy. Low-key disrespectful to actual persecuted and unprotected classes.


Were it not for some misperceptions/stereotypes I've seen, along the lines of "furry MUST mean LGBT", "furries are generally autistic", and stuff like that, I'd agree.

Furry is SUPPOSED to be just a hobby, yes, but there are still too many who won't accept that fact.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 24, 2022)

straferz said:


> My area is roughly 80-90% Catholic. Most boys around my age don't seem too prejudiced, but they have frequently mocked 'sjw' behaviour and stuff like that, which to me is a sign that they're either centre-right or right-wing. However, one kid I know apparently once said that they don't get trans people, and disagree with their existence. But from what I know, he was pretty civil about it, so I won't hold any of his thoughts against him; even though I personally disagree.
> 
> Living in an environment like this is as a centre-left person is kind of tough sometimes though. I will say that I'm a fairly privileged person; white, cis-gendered, etc. But despite that, I still happen to be LGBTQ+, and am neurodivergent. So I'm often worried to come out as those things, because I fear that people in my friend-space might label me a 'snowflake'.


In my case, I think that it's a mixture of, so it's really hard to tell whether if furries are accepted or not. It appears to me that it's all based on the individual. Labels like that are some of the reasons why I don't like to tell others of my furry affiliation, unless the other tells me otherwise. If I had to tell someone of that, I'd have a hard time telling them about it, as I'd have no idea about how to bring that up. 
BTW, if I did that at my workplace, and I'd be likely fired for having "NSFW"-like hobbies.


Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Rural areas of New York State here.... not way up in the mountains but within an hour's drive of the notable cities....
> 
> ....I've seen like a handful of furries at a non-furry convention (a gaming convention, to be exact - so I can see a possible loophole if I went as a video game character, but these particular furries were NOT) and I think I saw someone dressed as Tony the Tiger ONCE while doing an inventory at a Walmart some years ago.  There's... it's impossible for me to truly gauge it, but I can tell it's probably not really accepted around here.
> 
> There's quite a few of _that_ type of Catholic and a noticeable number of _that_ type of conspiracy-theory "right" winger around where I am.  So being autistic and _likely_ being at least gay at this point, I'm probably not truly safe.


Dressing-up as Tony the Tiger? Surprised that it was allowed there and the fact that they were doing it while dressed-up. Was it Halloween when that happened? If not, then why were they doing it in the first place? Not surprised about it though . . . Funnily, there has been fursuiters wearing their fursuits in New York despite that, with little to no repercussions. Have you heard the case of the street performers in Times Square?

Dunno about where I live though, since it's a mixture of a variety of people, which means that the reactions vary by individual.


straferz said:


> Damn you're kind of lucky compared to me. There's absolutely zero furry conventions within a 2 1/2 hour range from my area. Yeah, there are some in Alberta's capital, Edmonton, and almost definitely Calgary as well, but those cities are so far away, they might as well be in a whole other ballpark. They don't even have gaming conventions here either. The closest thing they have to something like that is a youth centre where you can play video games, and a manga club at the library.


Only got one where I live that I know of so far. Even though it's geared towards anime and a mixture of other things than furries, there has been fursuiters there in the past years.


x-xuihcoatl said:


> Portland, OR - you could fursuit in public and no one would really bat an eye, and if they did I'd doubt it would be in a bad way. I've told plenty of friends and no one reacts negatively, funny enough I've discovered a lot of my friends are also furry or know someone who is- also lots of random furry stickers on the main "trendy" streets with all the graffiti and murals. Soo, I'd say it's a very good city to be a furry in


Lucky place you live in and wished my place was more like that. If my place was like that, I'd be much more comfortable expressing my furry hobby to others, especially when the other person had told me from their side. Probably even go out on a ton of public fursuiting adventures, pics, and vids to post on my social media accounts. Seems that everyone has the balls to embrace the furry fandom as part of society.

Have you seen public fursuiters before? Have you done so yourself and if so, did you check your local laws to make sure that it's legal to do it? Why is your place so open to these things?


PercyD said:


> Every once in awhile, I come across these threads where they make furries seem like an unprotected class-
> 
> Like, bruh. No... Its like asking if "knitting or crocheting banned in your State"
> 
> ...


Are furries a protected class? If so, have you come across threads that say that furries are a protected class?

There was time when the fandom got a bad image because of that CSI episode and other bad media coverage that portrayed them like that. Despite the fact that it's a hobby, some may still hold that stigma from back then on them, as a result of the damage caused by the media. People have accused them of pedophilia and got them kicked-out when they have good intentions. I've read somewhere that if someone mentioned about their furry hobby to their supervisor in the mascotting business, they'd be fired for having NSFW hobbies in their eyes. There has been a case where a US councilman got fired for their furry affiliations. Certain states have anti-mask laws. In some cases, if someone was wearing a fursuit in public, anyone can jump to conclusions and call the police because they're breaking the law by covering their face in public, which may also include if you're wearing it out in your yard or with the curtains or doors opened on your own property. Best way to think of that is nudity laws, where it's illegal to expose one's private parts no matter where it's being done, unless if it's done in a place where no one can see them doing it.

Absolutely true. Plus, if you wanted pics and vids for social media, having a handler who's specialized in photography or videography is great for it, as doing it yourself can be really hard, unless you had the right equipment and the know-how to do it.

If you're saying that here's the wrong place to ask those questions, where else can they ask it?


straferz said:


> That's a good point. At the end of the day, being a furry is simply a hobby, and nothing more. I was just pointing out my struggles with peoples perceptions of the fandom, since it was relevant to the question. It's a bit annoying, but I really could just ignore them tbh. They don't have the right to tell me what I can and can't do


True, as the same goes for me. However, there's a time when to and when not to ignore someone, as they may have good points or ideas.


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## Troj (Sep 24, 2022)

My first public suiting excursions were totally without a handler, yes.  Later, when I finally met my first furries in my area, we suited as a group. As I gained more experience and learned more tips from the fandom, I tried to keep to the rule of always having a handler, but didn't want to sit out event after event after event after event after event just because I had no one to go with or felt weird about imposing on the same people over and over. 

The feedback I've gotten re: speaking has mostly been people saying, "Wow! Your jaw moves!" and commenting how surreal or weird it is to be talking to a dinosaur.

Since I fursuit at a lot of outdoor festivals and events, of course I have fursuited around police officers and not only have I not had any issues, but the local police will sometimes stop to take selfies with me or give me high fives. (A few local cops no doubt know me by now, because they have a consistent beat.)



LunaGryph said:


> Police as personal servants to public fursuiters?


Oh, nononono. I meant that some entitled people treat the police as their personal bodyguards or servants---as in, they have no shame summoning the police to "deal with" people they consider unseemly, suspicious, or "icky," such as homeless people, people of colour, or others whom they think have "no good reason" to be there or whom they suspect are "up to no good."

A handful of times when suiting in public, I've encountered snooty people who've interrogated me to make sure I "belonged" in the space, and those people always make me anxious, because I never know if they're going to escalate. (Funny story, though, I once thoroughly humiliated one such woman by coming up to her later out of suit to introduce myself. Her friends gave her a ton of shit for interrogating a small, benign person like me like I was some kind of threat, and that felt very satisfying.)



LunaGryph said:


> Are furries a protected class?


Uh, no, definitely not.

A "protected class" typically refers to a sexual, racial, or other minority group in need of special protection and accommodation in society, due to their increased vulnerability to discrimination and oppression. Hobbies and fandoms do not count.


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## x-xuihcoatl (Sep 24, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Lucky place you live in and wished my place was more like that. If my place was like that, I'd be much more comfortable expressing my furry hobby to others, especially when the other person had told me from their side. Probably even go out on a ton of public fursuiting adventures, pics, and vids to post on my social media accounts. Seems that everyone has the balls to embrace the furry fandom as part of society.
> 
> Have you seen public fursuiters before? Have you done so yourself and if so, did you check your local laws to make sure that it's legal to do it? Why is your place so open to these things?


I don't have a fursuit myself but you can easily wear an ears/tail (and sometimes leash) combo to the store and get lots of compliments, imo at worst folks just ignore you. I have a custom hat with ears and big dragon horns I regularly wear in the winter, and so many strangers love it. I've actually seen it more than a few times in the near decade I've lived here, and as recently as last June, though it was a PRIDE month event so not sure if that counts. Portland is the 2nd most LGBT+ friendly city in the country, I believe it's a combination of that, and the fact that the city motto is "Keep Portland Weird", which makes this place much more friendly to furries than anywhere else I've ever lived. 

IDK about any specific laws in place against dressing up, we have a guy here who is sort of an unofficial Portland mascot that rides a unicycle with a darth vader mask playing flaming bagpipes, and the city now uses him as a selling point for tourism, he'll just randomly show up when I'm out sometimes. Also LOTS of those inflatable dinosaurs running around, I think we may have even won the world record for most inflatable dinosaur suits once. The opposite is also true, we have city/state laws that allow people with boobs to go topless in public and have a yearly naked bike ride with participation in the thousands, it's suuuper fun. Part of it is that bigots and other religious/culturally intolerant types are not tolerated socially by most citizens (paradox of tolerance lol, we spent four years chasing them out in huge angry mobs like you see in cartoons, which a number of furries attended in full and partial suit), so the worst most common thing that would happen is your fursuit gets stolen out of your car.... except that one time the furry WAS the bigoted, cold blooded murderer neonazi furry raiders fascist turd... ugh, sometime "weird" can go horribly wrong like some awful plot twist, the city is still recovering from four years of intense, targeted political violence so it's not all kitties and rainbows. May that monster drown in his own piss bag, they will never win here.


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## Nexus Cabler (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Every once in awhile, I come across these threads where they make furries seem like an unprotected class-
> 
> Like, bruh. No... Its like asking if "knitting or crocheting banned in your State"
> 
> ...



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you said, but 3 out of 4 of those you listed are of protected classes in the United States. Fat being one that's under process of falling under a disability status in some areas and therefore having laws that prohibit discrimination particularly in the employment department.

Getting that out of the way, there are areas where being a furry is considered by the culture and society to be unacceptable. There are still stigmas against furries in today's times. It may seem a lot nicer here in the cozy United States, but other places tell a different story, and individuals here have testified to confirm that. That in mind, I'd argue that while they are a fandom, not a class, it's become clear that people in the fandom out there still get a lot of shit.

We shouldn't invalidate that or make them feel they are wrong for expressing themselves in one of few places where we can do it comfortably.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you said, but 3 out of 4 of those you listed are of protected classes in the United States. Fat being one that's under process of falling under a disability status in some areas and therefore having laws that prohibit discrimination particularly in the employment department.
> 
> Getting that out of the way, there are areas where being a furry is considered by the culture and society to be unacceptable. There are still stigmas against furries in today's times. It may seem a lot nicer here in the cozy United States, but other places tell a different story, and individuals here have testified to confirm that. That in mind, I'd argue that while they are a fandom, not a class, it's become clear that people in the fandom out there still get a lot of shit.
> 
> We shouldn't invalidate that or make them feel they are wrong for expressing themselves in one of few places where we can do it comfortably.


They are protected classes because they were formally/currently prosecuted. 

And it's not wrong/ invalid? But it is disrespectful. I can't change my gender or race. I am genetically fat. The most I can do is probably pretend not to be Queer-

But you can really just not wear your fursuit and be fine. Equating a hobby to gender, race, and disability is tone deaf at the least. And at it's worse, it creates a a space where prosecuted classes language, identity and unity are co-oped for- *Checks notes*

Your right to practice your hobby. Being a furry is a hobby. It's a fun one too. And it's a bright and vibrant community. But out of respect for people who are actually prosecuted, it is not an identity.


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## Nexus Cabler (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> They are protected classes because they were formally/currently prosecuted.
> 
> And it's not wrong/ invalid? But it is disrespectful. I can't change my gender or race. I am genetically fat. The most I can do is probably pretend not to be Queer-
> 
> ...


So who here was actually comparing the fandom to other persecuted groups? I haven't seen anyone here doing what you feel is happening. It's just been personal experiences and feelings towards how the fandom is viewed.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Were it not for some misperceptions/stereotypes I've seen, along the lines of "furry MUST mean LGBT", "furries are generally autistic", and stuff like that, I'd agree.
> 
> Furry is SUPPOSED to be just a hobby, yes, but there are still too many who won't accept that fact.


But that has nothing to do with the LGBT community or the neurodivergent community. These are actual identities and classes that need protection. -Fur suiting is just a hobby.

There are a lot of neurodivergent people who love Star Trek too. But you don't see Trekkies trying to claim they need to be a protected class. Thats silly. And it's distracting from the actual LGBT & neurodivergent people who need help.

Now, having LGBTQ+/QUILTBAG and neurodivergent resources at fur cons is good. But the resources aren't to help the fur fandom become a protected class (???)
They are for the people of those communities to feel supported by the fandom. Not the other way around.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> So who here was actually comparing the fandom to other persecuted groups? I haven't seen anyone here doing what you feel is happening. It's just been personal experiences and feelings towards how the fandom is viewed.


"Acceptance" is language used by people in persecuted groups to talk about their experiences. Further, it's a dog whistle used by nefarious, actual fascist people in the fandom co-opting the language of persecuted groups to other people who don't have any power.

Fandoms are NOT identities. No one has to 'accept' your fandom. And if you think they are, you are mistaken, one. And two, you are at risk of ending up in a rabbit hole.

A better way to talk about this topic without being disrespectful to persecuted groups is to talk about it like it's just that. A fandom. You don't see any other fandoms talking about whether or not the public accepts them. They just enjoy their fandom, and maybe talk about a bit of bullying if other people find it weird. Whatever.

But this is co-opting. And it's 2 steps away from covert fascist rhetoric.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

straferz said:


> That's a good point. At the end of the day, being a furry is simply a hobby, and nothing more. I was just pointing out my struggles with peoples perceptions of the fandom, since it was relevant to the question. It's a bit annoying, but I really could just ignore them tbh. They don't have the right to tell me what I can and can't do


I don't really concern myself with the PR of the fandoms I'm in either, lol. Its weird. I'm an adult. If I want to spent 4 thousand dollars on a plushy body suit, by gosh, I'm gonna live my best life--

I'm just never gonna wear it in a place where it could be damaged.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> But that has nothing to do with the LGBT community or the neurodivergent community. These are actual identities and classes that need protection. -Fur suiting is just a hobby.
> 
> There are a lot of neurodivergent people who love Star Trek too. But you don't see Trekkies trying to claim they need to be a protected class. Thats silly. And it's distracting from the actual LGBT & neurodivergent people who need help.
> 
> ...


The fact that you're trying to imply furries are trying to become a protected class may be relevant to the initial posts, but it _completely misses the point_ of what I was posting.

Try attacking this from the other angle.  Assholes using someone's hobby as a furry as an excuse to find ways to pierce legal protections and go after _actually-persecuted classes_.

Surely you are familiar with moving-the-goalposts crap that's a frequent tool of persistent bigots?  Maybe even more familiar with it than me, given some of what you've said here?


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## Yakamaru (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Every once in awhile, I come across these threads where they make furries seem like an unprotected class-
> 
> Like, bruh. No... Its like asking if "knitting or crocheting banned in your State"
> 
> ...


You are free to make your own thread concerning these issues instead of trying to steer this thread off-topic.


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## Nexus Cabler (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> "Acceptance" is language used by people in persecuted groups to talk about their experiences. Further, it's a dog whistle used by nefarious, actual fascist people in the fandom co-opting the language of persecuted groups to other people who don't have any power.
> 
> Fandoms are NOT identities. No one has to 'accept' your fandom. And if you think they are, you are mistaken, one. And two, you are at risk of ending up in a rabbit hole.
> 
> ...



So, you don't like the terminology people are using argue there are potential hateful intentions behind it? That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Perhaps there are a few misunderstandings people have and maybe they could have worded their comments better, but fascism is a hell of a thing to imply.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Sep 24, 2022)

lol


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> The fact that you're trying to imply furries are trying to become a protected class may be relevant to the initial posts, but it _completely misses the point_ of what I was posting.
> 
> Try attacking this from the other angle.  Assholes using someone's hobby as a furry as an excuse to find ways to pierce legal protections and go after _actually-persecuted classes_.
> 
> Surely you are familiar with moving-the-goalposts crap that's a frequent tool of persistent bigots?  Maybe even more familiar with it than me, given some of what you've said here?


???
You replied to me bro. And I was answering YOUR question. How is answering you question moving the goal posts? Other than you didn't like my answer. If you don't like my answer, thats on you.


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## Troj (Sep 24, 2022)

Furries aren't a protected class, but some furries may certainly belong to one or more protected classes, and some shitlords certainly do use furry-bashing as a covert way to engage in gay-bashing, trans-bashing, or neurodivergence-bashing with plausible deniability. Therein lies the nuance.

Whether a given slam, diss, or attack on furries qualifies as a coded attack on as one of the above minorities or doesn't will of course depend on the slam or attack in question. 

This, of course, different from furries _themselves_ being a minority group in the same vein as BIPOC folks or LGBTQ folks.


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## Punji (Sep 24, 2022)

If we ignore all the blatantly stupid things being said here for a moment, just because one group of people may face unjust treatment doesn't mean no other groups of people do.

Oppression Olympics really don't help anything. The suffering of one group does not invalidate the suffering of another.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Troj said:


> Furries aren't a protected class, but some furries may certainly belong to one or more protected classes, and some shitlords certainly do use furry-bashing as a covert way to engage in gay-bashing, trans-bashing, or neurodivergence-bashing with plausible deniability. Therein lies the nuance.


Eloquently said.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> ???
> You replied to me bro. And I was answering YOUR question. How is answering you question moving the goal posts? Other than you didn't like my answer. If you don't like my answer, thats on you.





Troj said:


> Furries aren't a protected class, but some furries may certainly belong to one or more protected classes, and some shitlords certainly do use furry-bashing as a covert way to engage in gay-bashing, trans-bashing, or neurodivergence-bashing with plausible deniability. Therein lies the nuance.


Thank you Troj for spelling out my intentions a bit better.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Punji said:


> If we ignore all the blatantly stupid things being said here for a moment, just because one group of people may face unjust treatment doesn't mean no other groups of people do.
> 
> Oppression Olympics really don't help anything. The suffering of one group does not invalidate the suffering of another.


Its not a thing about Oppression Olympics though. And I'm not making it about that.

What I'm saying is that no one is systematically oppressing a fandom. And if they are (i dunno, municipalities can do what they want) it's... really weird? And it's not the same.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> There was time when the fandom got a bad image because of that CSI episode and other bad media coverage that portrayed them like that. Despite the fact that it's a hobby, some may still hold that stigma from back then on them, as a result of the damage caused by the media. People have accused them of pedophilia and got them kicked-out when they have good intentions. I've read somewhere that if someone mentioned about their furry hobby to their supervisor in the mascotting business, they'd be fired for having NSFW hobbies in their eyes. There has been a case where a US councilman got fired for their furry affiliations. Certain states have anti-mask laws. In some cases, if someone was wearing a fursuit in public, anyone can jump to conclusions and call the police because they're breaking the law by covering their face in public, which may also include if you're wearing it out in your yard or with the curtains or doors opened on your own property. Best way to think of that is nudity laws, where it's illegal to expose one's private parts no matter where it's being done, unless if it's done in a place where no one can see them doing it.
> 
> Absolutely true. Plus, if you wanted pics and vids for social media, having a handler who's specialized in photography or videography is great for it, as doing it yourself can be really hard, unless you had the right equipment and the know-how to do it.
> 
> If you're saying that here's the wrong place to ask those questions, where else can they ask it?


By the by---
A US Councilman is a public servant. If the public doesn't want a furry to represent them that their prerogative. There is something that can be said about having rights to privacy from your job, but we hold our public servants to a different standard.

A conversation can be had about whether the councilman's hobbies inform his policies. Probably not. But I feel like councilmen who golf on the weekends with lobbyists should be held to the same standard. PARTICULARLY as thats more likely to impact that public servant's policy.


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## Nexus Cabler (Sep 24, 2022)

Troj said:


> Furries aren't a protected class, but some furries may certainly belong to one or more protected classes, and some shitlords certainly do use furry-bashing as a covert way to engage in gay-bashing, trans-bashing, or neurodivergence-bashing with plausible deniability. Therein lies the nuance.
> 
> Whether a given slam, diss, or attack on furries qualifies as a coded attack on as one of the above minorities or doesn't will of course depend on the slam or attack in question.
> 
> This, of course, different from furries _themselves_ being a minority group in the same vein as BIPOC folks or LGBTQ folks.


This makes a lot of sense. I have witnessed people online use the term 'furries' as an alternative word when referring to other groups like LGBTQ and neurodivergent people. 

I previously didn't think it was that commonly done, but I ended up being surprised.


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## Troj (Sep 24, 2022)

Does it hurt to be considered a "shitty" or "low-ranking" fandom? Yeah, it usually does, and that hurt is absolutely valid.

Are actual criminal or violent acts committed against hobbyists or members of a fandom inherently less serious or painful for the victims than comparable acts committed against members of an oppressed class? Of course not!

Are bronies, furries, or Homestuckers systematically oppressed and terrorized in the way that minorities have been and often still are? Not even close!

Do bronies, furries, or Homestuckers suffer from intergenerational and/or complex trauma due to suffering repeated and/or systematic oppression and discrimination due to being part of their fandom? Rarely-if-ever to the degree that actual minorities historically have and sadly still do, I'd say.

Now, if a person or an institution were to discriminate against or attack a furry _because _they assume furries are members of a protected minority group (e.g., LGBTQ), I'd say_ that_ would potentially qualify as a hate crime--so, again, the devil's in the details.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> This makes a lot of sense. I have witnessed people online use the term 'furries' as an alternative word when referring to other groups like LGBTQ and neurodivergent people.
> 
> I previously didn't think it was that commonly done, but I ended up being surprised.


Dog whistles left and right--

I've also been in this fandom long enough to see fascists try to co-opt the fandom. They use the fandom as a means to other actual persecuted groups like myself. It follows the same pattern.


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## Filter (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> By the by---
> A US Councilman is a public servant. If the public doesn't want a furry to represent them that their prerogative. There is something that can be said about having rights to privacy from your job, but we hold our public servants to a different standard.
> 
> A conversation can be had about whether the councilman's hobbies inform his policies. Probably not. But I feel like councilmen who golf on the weekends with lobbyists should be held to the same standard. PARTICULARLY as thats more likely to impact that public servant's policy.


My understanding is that he was fired for openly supporting consensual non-consent. Not for being a furry. At least I hope he meant consensual. If not, firing him was the right thing to do. Although if there was any room for misunderstanding, letting him go was still understandable. Ideally, our public servants should be above reproach. Not saying many are, just that ideally they should be.

If he was only into the fursuiting, the art, the literature, etc. I doubt much if anything would have happened.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Filter said:


> My understanding is that he was fired for openly supporting consensual non-consent. Not for being a furry. At least I hope he meant consensual. If not, firing him was the right thing to do. Although if there was any room for misunderstanding, letting him go was still understandable. Ideally, our public servants should be above reproach. Not saying many are, just that ideally they should be.
> 
> If he was only into the fursuiting, the art, the literature, etc. I doubt much if anything would have happened.


People trying, always--

Yea, the people in charge of writing our policies should be morally sound.


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## Troj (Sep 24, 2022)

Filter said:


> If he was only into the fursuiting, the art, the literature, etc. I doubt much if anything would have happened.



It would've been much harder to ding him if his fandom involvement had been 100% squeaky clean, certainly---but, sadly, not impossible. History's shown that all it takes is for one Machiavellian or cruel person to fire up the bigots by gesturing broadly to another person's "deviance" or "degeneracy" based on them just being eccentric or atypical. 

It sadly still wouldn't take a lot for a person to point the old tropes and media depicting furries as yiffy swingers, weird and insatiable kinksters, pedophiles, zoophiles, or people who think they're actually wolves or cats to get the mob properly hopped up.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Troj said:


> It would've been much harder to ding him if his fandom involvement had been 100% squeaky clean, certainly---but, sadly, not impossible. History's shown that all it takes is for one Machiavellian or cruel person to fire up the bigots by gesturing broadly to another person's "deviance" or "degeneracy" based on them just being eccentric or atypical.
> 
> It sadly still wouldn't take a lot for a person to point the old tropes and media depicting furries as yiffy swingers, weird and insatiable kinksters, pedophiles, zoophiles, or people who think they're actually wolves or cats to get the mob properly hopped up.


What aggrivates me is that 'benign' hobbies like golfing is done with lobbyists, croonies, and etc.

Crickets-


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## Punji (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Its not a thing about Oppression Olympics though. And I'm not making it about that.
> 
> What I'm saying is that no one is systematically oppressing a fandom. And if they are (i dunno, municipalities can do what they want) it's... really weird? And it's not the same.


No one is systematically oppressing the fandom, but furries may still face hostilities and aggression from those outside our sphere.

This thread is about furries specifically, no one else. I think a lot of the fire from this thread is because of this. This thread and even this forum are not appropriate platforms for these kinds of discussions.


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## PercyD (Sep 24, 2022)

Punji said:


> No one is systematically oppressing the fandom, but furries may still face hostilities and aggression from those outside our sphere.
> 
> This thread is about furries specifically, no one else. I think a lot of the fire from this thread is because of this. This thread and even this forum are not appropriate platforms for these kinds of discussions.


I disagree. Especially when the poll up front is asking if furries are accepted by the laws of your land like furries are a marginalized class. It's goofy, and it's disrespectful. 

And, news flash play boy, I AM part of this fandom. And I AM in a culture that tries to outlaw aspects of my actual personhood.

And I am telling you that equating this fandom to my struggles as a person is disrespectful. If you don't want to hear it, then that says more about you. If you don't think that it's appropriate that I,  a member of this fandom, talking about how I am marginalized for my actual personhood then what are you trying to say? Make it clear.


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## Punji (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> I disagree. Especially when the poll up front is asking if furries are accepted by the laws of your land like furries are a marginalized class. It's goofy, and it's disrespectful.
> 
> And, news flash play boy, I AM part of this fandom. And I AM in a culture that tries to outlaw aspects of my actual personhood.
> 
> And I am telling you that equating this fandom to my struggles as a person is disrespectful. If you don't want to hear it, then that says more about you. If you don't think that it's appropriate that I,  a member of this fandom, talking about how I am marginalized for my actual personhood then what are you trying to say? Make it clear.


Disagreement is fine, I don't ask for anything more. The poll does not address law and even if it did there would be no room to stand on for this.

In both Canada and the USA where I presume you reside, you and I are part of multiple protected classes. I am also a part of this fandom. People don't even like heterosexual Caucasian men wearing fakes ears and tails in public, much less full-body fursuits. Sometimes a spade is just a spade.

You equating being fat to disability is disrespectful to someone with a real disability. This is a fandom primarily comprised of socially rejected people. LGBT, neurodiverse, disabled, and unpopular nerds. You're crying in the rain trying to act like the biggest victim of us all here when most people don't even need a reason to hate furries to begin with.

You want me to make it clear: You're playing oppression Olympics because you want the attention other people are getting. Even if life is hard for you, it's still hard for other people too.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Sep 24, 2022)

I didn't think we'd get to a point in our society where people would not only start pinging their obesity as an actual key part of their identity but an identity that is a member of a legitimately marginalized group.

...but then again, this is _y'all _we're talking about here. This type of _hilariously _twisted thinking is par for the course for far too many of you.

Hopefully 2023 will be the year where normalcy and sanity regain a foothold in this culture. 

We desperately need it.


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## Troj (Sep 24, 2022)

PercyD said:


> What aggrivates me is that 'benign' hobbies like golfing is done with lobbyists, croonies, and etc.



Yes, and also, football too often lends itself to hooliganism.

Clearly, normalized doesn't always equal "healthy!" 

Speaking of which, yes, there is a tipping point at which I'd say being fat absolutely qualifies as a disability by my rubric, due to how it can impede mobility and endurance; cause wear-and-tear on the body over time; and limit people's access to public spaces, communities, and services. (Now, if you want to apply for formal accommodations or benefits, _that's_ a stickier wicket from a legal standpoint.)

To my knowledge, only Michigan considers weight a protected class. In my opinion, "sizeism" is an oft-overlooked prejudice that absolutely serves to marginalize and harm people whose bodies are the "wrong" size. It's certainly a more widespread and serious problem than anti-furry sentiment by a long shot!

So, I don't think it's useful to compare people's sufferings or struggles in that regard without going down an ugly and counterproductive "Oppression Olympics" rabbit hole where nobody ultimately "wins."

Anywho, carry on.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 24, 2022)

Troj said:


> My first public suiting excursions were totally without a handler, yes.  Later, when I finally met my first furries in my area, we suited as a group. As I gained more experience and learned more tips from the fandom, I tried to keep to the rule of always having a handler, but didn't want to sit out event after event after event after event after event just because I had no one to go with or felt weird about imposing on the same people over and over.
> 
> The feedback I've gotten re: speaking has mostly been people saying, "Wow! Your jaw moves!" and commenting how surreal or weird it is to be talking to a dinosaur.
> 
> ...


Wow, I'm surprised that your first few outings were without a handler. Not having a handler is a problem for me too in-terms of why fursuit outings are hard for me, but on the other hand I could imagine the freedom and the dangers of being by yourself, even though I haven't gone out myself yet. However, I've watched a vid of a fursuiter who has gone out in public by themselves and has gotten positive reactions, which has surprised me, thinking that at some point they'd be attacked. Somehow you were bold enough to go public fursuiting without a handler, which is something that I wished I can do too. How did you managed to do it? Were you concerned about health and safety risks prior to doing it? Did you encounter any problems from being by yourself? Did you partial or fullsuit when you started public fursuiting? Do you enjoy public fursuiting more when you're by yourself or in a group, and with a handler or without one? How did you meet furries in your area? How would you impose on the same people repeatedly? Do you have any advice for those thinking about doing it without a handler?

All of my heads have static jaws. Is it a problem if I were to talk in them in public to people? Would it be a problem if I behaved the same way in as I would out of suit (a.k.a. being myself)?

Did you get permission to suit at outdoor festivals and events or walked to the place in suit? Amazing that you get positive reaction from the cops. Did you introduce yourself to them at some point in time in or out of suit prior to doing it?

Ok, that clears up my confusion from earlier. I remember reading somewhere that someone did called the police because someone at a park was wearing a fursuit, and it turns out that wearing facial coverings there was illegal.

God, the interrogation is what kinda makes me nervous about going out in suit, especially when I don't have a handler with me to deal with it. For my case, I live in an old folk area, which I think can increase the chances of that occuring. Dunno what classifies someone as "belonging" in a space. When you've encountered interrogators, how did you handled the situation? Were any of those times took place when you didn't had a handler?
You introduced yourself out of suit to that woman? Wow you really got some balls there to do it. Not sure if I'd have the balls to do the same thing if I were in that same thing you went through. On the other hand, how did you manage to catch-up to that same woman to introduce yourself before that? Could imagine that if she left the scene quickly enough, you'd probably lost your chance to do it, unless you had managed to run into her another day while still remembering who she is. Why did or what had made you do it in the first place?

How has being in the furry fandom given you life? How did you even find it in the first place? How long have you been a furry for?


Yakamaru said:


> You are free to make your own thread concerning these issues instead of trying to steer this thread off-topic.


How the fuck did this get out of hand in the first place? This thread was never intended to talk about these things.


RAM said:


> Hopefully 2023 will be the year where normalcy and sanity regain a foothold in this culture.
> 
> We desperately need it.


It's not only in this culture, but everywhere else. Just look at what's going on in the world and the news to give a clue on what's going on. Inflation, COVID-19 and other diseases, and the war in Ukraine are big examples in today's world that falls under this. I'm suspecting that it may be generations until normalcy and sanity are restored.


Punji said:


> People don't even like heterosexual Caucasian men wearing fakes ears and tails in public, much less full-body fursuits. Sometimes a spade is just a spade.


Hating on heterosexual Caucasian men wearing fake ears and tails or a bodysuit in public? Why is it when they do it they're hated for it? Would other races, genders, or sexualities be hated if they did the same thing (e.g., hetero Asian male/female, hetero African-American male/female, hetero Caucasian female, etc.)? If a full body fursuit covers the whole body, how can someone tell what race, gender, or sexuality they are?


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## Troj (Sep 25, 2022)

Honestly, when I first ventured out on my own, I was just naive and over-confident. My first public excursions were also during Halloween, so I figured I'd basically blend in with other people in costume and it wouldn't be a big deal.

Interestingly, I've had at least as many dicey encounters when I've had a handler than when I haven't! Having an inexperienced or incompetent handler can be like having no handler at all!

Over time, I've developed a sixth sense for places and situations that are generally safe and ones that aren't, and I've developed various skills for avoiding or diffusing trouble if I see it coming. But, suiting by myself means that I have to take care of myself, manage my water and other supplies, and be "on" at all times.

I think it's wise to err on the side of having a handler, especially if you're newer to fursuiting. Do as I say, not as I do. 

I very much enjoy getting together with other furries, but it can be tricky to make time for that. If I'm wanting to attend an event, it's usually easier to just go by myself than hang my hopes on other people who may not be able to make it. Before the pandemic, I used to organize local furmeets, and might resume that at some point.

Re: How to meet furries, I've met other furries through Facebook, Telegram, Instagram, local meets, and conventions. I will also sometimes run into other furries when suiting in public!

I'd say solo suiting and group suiting each have their respective pros and cons. I get much more attention when it's just me, and I don't have to keep track of other people and their needs or schedules. But, a gaggle of furries can leave a big, wonderful impression on people; it's great to share these experiences and memories with friends; and traveling in a pack is typically safer than traveling alone.

I'll ask for permission to suit at private events, paid events, events on private property, indoor events, or events where I don't want to risk being mistaken for "selling something." I don't ask for permission to suit at public events like festivals or holiday celebrations.

When interacting with cops and security, I am friendly, open, and non-defensive, and I remove my head if asked or if I sense any tension or discomfort.  Several local cops who have a regular "beat" or work the same events know me quite well by now.

Re: Being interrogated by Karens and Brents, I try to be upbeat, friendly, good-humored, and non-aggressive, and I'll de-head to diffuse any tension if I have to. I just do whatever I need to do to de-escalate the situation and avoid any escalation.

Re: That One Karen, I was suiting around town years ago during an art festival, and walked by the local ice cream shop on the way back to my car. Several kids rushed over to interact with me, so I played peek-a-boo and acted cute for a bit. This lady marches up to me and starts demanding to know WHO I AM, WHERE I CAME FROM, and WHAT AM I DOING HERE? She then shrilly declares that she finds me "creepy." (This was back when I was committed to silent suiting, mind you.) I slink off, thoroughly shocked and embarrassed. After de-suiting at my car, I resolve to go back to mend the fence with her--so, I go back to the ice cream shop, and see her sitting with a group of people. I walk up, extend my hand, introduce myself, and apologize for creeping her out, and explain that I regularly suit around the art fest. Her friends roar with laughter and start giving her shit for freaking out over a petite, scrawny, physically-disabled female, and she scowls like a wet cat.

At the time, I was utterly mortified by the whole encounter, but now consider it a funny story. At the time, I honestly never meant to embarrass her, but now consider it her just desserts for being a nosy bitch.

I got kinda-interrogated by a dude last week, but he merely snapped at his children (who were very sweet and friendly) that they didn't want a picture with me because "it's just a random person in a costume!"

The fandom has given me friends, novel experiences that I wouldn't have had otherwise, and opportunities to express myself at a deeper level.  I first discovered the fandom by accident from watching a furry dance video on Youtube, and the rest was history. I've been in the fandom since 2012, by my count.


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## Punji (Sep 25, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> Hating on heterosexual Caucasian men wearing fake ears and tails or a bodysuit in public? Why is it when they do it they're hated for it? Would other races, genders, or sexualities be hated if they did the same thing (e.g., hetero Asian male/female, hetero African-American male/female, hetero Caucasian female, etc.)? If a full body fursuit covers the whole body, how can someone tell what race, gender, or sexuality they are?


Heterosexual Caucasian men are just an example, as they are often said to be traits which are not viewed as negative. Therefore, if these people suffer harassment the motive is the furryism and nothing more.

Can always tell by voice, temporary skin exposure, or removing the head to cool off. It's not always possible to tell of course, but that just proves the point. It's not about the sex or race of the person, it's about the fursuit.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 25, 2022)

Troj said:


> Honestly, when I first ventured out on my own, I was just naive and over-confident. My first public excursions were also during Halloween, so I figured I'd basically blend in with other people in costume and it wouldn't be a big deal.
> 
> Interestingly, I've had at least as many dicey encounters when I've had a handler than when I haven't! Having an inexperienced or incompetent handler can be like having no handler at all!
> 
> ...


Why were you so naive and over-confident when you first started public fursuiting? What got you into doing it? Ah yes, Halloween is also a great time to wear fursuits. Can't wait to give it a go when I get the chance to do so.

Weird that you've had more dicey encounters with a handler than without one. Thought that it'd be the other way around, since the fursuiter doesn't have a second set of eyes to be on the lookout for things that they can't see, such as obstacles, and assist them in public interactions. Looks like something about having a handler can escalate tensions that it turns those interactions very dicey. Certainly having an inexperienced handler doesn't help at all. How did the interactions get dicey with a handler?

Developed a sixth sense? You mean that you can public fursuit anywhere without having to scope out the place beforehand?

I bet that travelling in packs is also more fun too, and probably a great way for the new public fursuiters to learn from the experienced. So if you wanted to attend an event really badly, you'd go even if you don't have a handler with you? When fursuiting in public, do you prefer doing it indoors or outdoors?

What did you have to do to get permission to attend an event in fursuit? Do you have a problem when people see you suiting and desuiting at your car? Do you try to park closer or farther away from the event you're suiting at?

BTW, that was an epic way to get revenge back on a Karen. Amazing how her friends had seemingly stood-up for you after you introduced yourself, rather than something like react the same way that she did. The reactions are so priceless that it was worth it and makes the revenge even greater. Kudos to you for being able to pull that off. If you were a talking suiter back then, how do you think things would've been different? How did you come up with that idea? Ah yes, that's hindsight 20/20 kicking in. Brents? Thought it was called Chads?

Lame how the dude was speaking on their behalf, rather than asking them if they wanted to have a pic/interact with you. Did you felt hurt by what they said?


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## Troj (Sep 25, 2022)

When I first started mascotting as a young person, my only knowledge of the furry fandom was based on That One Episode of CSI, and I didn't even know there was an organized mascotting community until later. Everything I knew I had either learned from personal experience or from other mascots at various gigs.

When I got my first fursuit, I just wanted an excuse to mascot outside of formal gigs and not always have to borrow the costume to do it. I didn't even know what a "fursuit" was!

Re: Having a "sixth sense" about spaces, situations, and events---I've learned over time which kinds of events, places, and situations are usually good for suiting, and which kinds are often not good. I will usually "case the joint" first unless I know an event or environment very, very well.

Re: Dicey situations that were not helped by inexperienced handlers, serious problems can arise if there are too many suiters and too few handlers; if your handler is easily distracted; if your handler doesn't understand your needs and limitations as a suiter (e.g., that you have blind spots, that your mobility is limited, that you can become overheated or dehydrated very quickly); or if your handler is conflict-averse or shy.

In one case, the handlers at a furmeet were overwhelmed trying to manage so many suiters, and they didn't notice when I'd been surrounded by a group of teenage boys who started sexually harassing me. (This was when I was committed to silent suiting _and_ had a much more awkward fursuit than the one I have now.) For my part, I didn't report the incident to the handlers until much later, which was my bad.

In another case, I had a handler who was shy and passive and didn't intervene when I got swarmed by a group of children who became more and more physically aggressive as they quickly learned they could get away with it. (Again, this was when I had my old fursuit and was committed to never talking under any circumstances.)

Re: Desuiting and parking, I try to park as close as possible to my target destination, in theory, because I don't want to have to trek back to the car when I'm hot and tired. I used to put a ton of effort into protecting my identity and never breaking the magic, but have come to prioritize safety and comfort over maintaining the mystery. If people happen to see me suiting up in my car, I'll just wave, smile, make polite conversation, and offer people a sticker if I have any on hand. Having a "secret identity" was fun, but letting people see and get to know the person behind the mask has helped me to solidify and strengthen my reputation in the community. This has translated into me actually being _invited _to suit at events and gatherings, which is a huge honor.

Re: Permission, I'll usually email or DM the person or organization I'd like to suit for, or I'll approach the person in charge before or during an event to ask if I can suit.

Recently, I attended a local children's event that was unfamiliar to me. I first scoped out the scene out of suit, noticed that they already had their own mascots on-site, and decided to err on the side of treading lightly to avoid stepping on any toes. I casually chatted up various volunteers and organizers, and identified one volunteer who struck me as especially nice. During our conversation, I mentioned that I was a mascot, that my suit was in a car from a previous gig, and would they like me to suit. She texted the main organizer for permission, they said "Nah," and I graciously took the L. Later, I helped the volunteers put away the tents and load their cars, and introduced myself to the organizer of the event. It's all about building those connections and establishing a good reputation!

Re: Brents, I don't think there's a set term for a male Karen, and I just picked "Brent" in honor of a minor character from The Good Place. "Chads" are more dudes who are considered "alpha males," by my understanding.

Re: That one jerk, I was nervous when he started interrogating me about who I was and why I was there, and yes, I was _definitely_ offended when he told his children that I was "just a random person in a costume" and that they shouldn't want a photo with me. (It's like, bro, this isn't Disney World; you're not going to be seeing Minnie or Goofy here.) That they totally blew him off and continued to enthusiastically interact with me and ask me questions about myself filled me with a smug, self-satisfied glee.  I was polite enough to walk away when they started eating their lunches, though, because I don't like to be a distraction or a nuisance, even to shitheads.

Later, it occurred to me that it would've been funny (at least for me) to hint at being a famous person who was merely dressing as a dinosaur to blend in.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Punji said:


> Disagreement is fine, I don't ask for anything more. The poll does not address law and even if it did there would be no room to stand on for this.
> 
> In both Canada and the USA where I presume you reside, you and I are part of multiple protected classes. I am also a part of this fandom. People don't even like heterosexual Caucasian men wearing fakes ears and tails in public, much less full-body fursuits. Sometimes a spade is just a spade.
> 
> ...


"Real disability"--
I won't go into that right now, because it's off topic. Plus I think @Troj, as usual, beautifully addresses this efficiently. But I'm just gonna say thats one way you are wrong. And two, I have very little faith that you want to actually learn.

And you're also wrong on the Oppression Olymipics, other than you want to use that excuse to try to silence me. Like, look at your post. You're putting LGBT in the same list as unpopular nerds like... What are you doing?

To my original post, and I've been saying this the whole time, the way y'all are talking about this is silly. If you are bringing up states and countries, it means you are referring to local laws. Fandoms aren't outlawed. And if they are, cause I dunno I don't know all the laws, then it is not oppression of an identity or people. Try again-- or don't.


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## Frank Gulotta (Sep 25, 2022)

The crazy person logic in this thread holy shit, go outside get a breath of fresh air haha


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## Filter (Sep 25, 2022)

Troj said:


> It would've been much harder to ding him if his fandom involvement had been 100% squeaky clean, certainly---but, sadly, not impossible. History's shown that all it takes is for one Machiavellian or cruel person to fire up the bigots by gesturing broadly to another person's "deviance" or "degeneracy" based on them just being eccentric or atypical.
> 
> It sadly still wouldn't take a lot for a person to point the old tropes and media depicting furries as yiffy swingers, weird and insatiable kinksters, pedophiles, zoophiles, or people who think they're actually wolves or cats to get the mob properly hopped up.


Oh, I'm sure that would happen anyway. At least to some extent, even if he was squeaky clean so to speak. Sorry if it sounded like I didn't think some people might give him a hard time. Some would bring out the tired old tropes, sure, but not everyone.

There was ambiguity about where he stands on the issue of sexual assault. Not simply from people pointing fingers and making assumptions about furries, but from what he himself claimed.

Kinks are a personal matter. If he claimed to be a swinger, said he was into BDSM etc. I don't think the reaction would have been as severe. I doubt many would care much about it, even if it was enough for him to lose the vote. Assault is where it stops being a personal thing, however, and becomes a problem for others around him.


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## Punji (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> "Real disability"--
> I won't go into that right now, because it's off topic. Plus I think Troj, as usual, beautifully addresses this efficiently. But I'm just gonna say thats one way you are wrong. And two, I have very little faith that you want to actually learn.
> 
> And you're also wrong on the Oppression Olymipics, other than you want to use that excuse to try to silence me. Like, look at your post. You're putting LGBT in the same list as unpopular nerds like... What are you doing?
> ...


Oh, so _now_ it's off topic, huh Percy?  If you think being fat is the same thing as a full, real disability you better hope to be in good health in the twilight years of your life, lest you be in for a very rude awakening. I did not ask, nor have either of us addressed each other and regardless I'd be happy to tell her the same thing. You are the one of the worst bad faith offenders on this site, and the fact you try to back out when you realize your claim is mindbogglingly terrible is very indicative of this.

I live in the real world. Being an eccentric loner has been more of a problem for me 100% of the time than not being heterosexual. No one really cares or asks about sexuality. Being disabled has faced me with far more discrimination than anyone even _thinking_ I was gay. I'm calling you out on oppression Olympics because you're trying to hide from personal accountability due to whatever inherent traits you can while talking down to other people as though their own suffering means less than yours. This entire section of this thread only started because you were annoyed other people were getting attention.

Once again nothing was said about laws. It's legal to wear a fursuit to the grocery store but it's likely going to garner a lot of flak and abuse. In literally any way are any protected classes persecuted or oppressed? It's already a very serious crime in both nations to harass or harm another person on the basis of race, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender expression, and disability. AKA a hate crime. If these classes were truly systematically oppressed, these laws would not protect them uniquely.

Does this mean everything is perfectly fine for these classes? No. However, they are not oppressed by any extent of reality. Trying to shut down other people and call them names because they're concerned about their own issues doesn't fix yours or mine in the process. Everyone suffers, not just you Percy.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Filter said:


> Oh, I'm sure that would happen anyway. At least to some extent, even if he was squeaky clean so to speak. Sorry if it sounded like I didn't think some people might give him a hard time. Some would bring out the tired old tropes, sure, but not everyone.
> 
> There was ambiguity about where he stands on the issue of sexual assault. Not simply from people pointing fingers and making assumptions about furries, but from what he himself claimed.
> 
> Kinks are a personal matter. If he claimed to be a swinger, said he was into BDSM etc. I don't think the reaction would have been as severe. I doubt many would care much about it, even if it was enough for him to lose the vote. Assault is where it stops being a personal thing, however, and becomes a problem for others around him.


Non-con kink in BDSM more falls into roleplaying then any thing else. The situation is fictional, there are strict rules in place so everyone has control over the situation, and, by that virtue, it is consentual. So maybe there is some intentional blackmailing going on?

But I don't want to know about my law maker's f-list. Lol.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Troj said:


> I got kinda-interrogated by a dude last week, but he merely snapped at his children (who were very sweet and friendly) that they didn't want a picture with me because "it's just a random person in a costume!"



More like he didn't want his kids taking pictures with a random person in a costume~. 



Troj said:


> The fandom has given me friends, novel experiences that I wouldn't have had otherwise, and opportunities to express myself at a deeper level.  I first discovered the fandom by accident from watching a furry dance video on Youtube, and the rest was history. I've been in the fandom since 2012, by my count.


And honestly, same. Though I was in the fandom like... back in the late 90s and early 2000s, following artists on their websites and bucking about on web rings. Oh, and Cats Don't Dance.


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## Filter (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Non-con kink in BDSM more falls into roleplaying then any thing else. The situation is fictional, there are strict rules in place so everyone has control over the situation, and, by that virtue, it is consentual. So maybe there is some intentional blackmailing going on?
> 
> But I don't want to know about my law maker's f-list. Lol.


Could be. I'm aware that it's a roleplay thing, but it's engaged in by consenting adults. That's probably what he meant, at least I hope so, as I'm not aware of any charges against the guy, but something about it turns him on. If he wasn't a politician, I think he would have a little more leeway.

Now I'm imagining what various public figures' F-Lists might look like. XD


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Filter said:


> Could be. I'm aware that it's a roleplay thing, but it's roleplay engaged in by consenting adults. That's probably what he meant, at least I hope so, as I'm not aware of any charges against the guy, but something about it turns him on. If he wasn't a politician, I think he would have a little more leeway.
> 
> Now I'm imagining what various public figures' F-Lists might look like. XD


This is a good time to let everyone know that American Founding Father fanfiction exists, lol--

Yea, I hope it's just a roleplay thing. But Public Servants are under scrutiny. You gotta keep that kinda stuff under wraps or just pick a different line of work.


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## Baron Tredegar (Sep 25, 2022)

Filter said:


> Now I'm imagining what various public figures' F-Lists might look like. XD


Benjamin Franklin was into some kinky stuff actually. He did attend Hellfire Club meetings after all.


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## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

Punji said:


> Oh, so _now_ it's off topic, huh Percy?  If you think being fat is the same thing as a full, real disability you better hope to be in good health in the twilight years of your life, lest you be in for a very rude awakening. I did not ask, nor have either of us addressed each other and regardless I'd be happy to tell her the same thing. You are the one of the worst bad faith offenders on this site, and the fact you try to back out when you realize your claim is mindbogglingly terrible is very indicative of this.
> 
> I live in the real world. Being an eccentric loner has been more of a problem for me 100% of the time than not being heterosexual. No one really cares or asks about sexuality. Being disabled has faced me with far more discrimination than anyone even _thinking_ I was gay. I'm calling you out on oppression Olympics because you're trying to hide from personal accountability due to whatever inherent traits you can while talking down to other people as though their own suffering means less than yours. This entire section of this thread only started because you were annoyed other people were getting attention.
> 
> ...


Eh, I'm calling bullshit on this.

First off, Percy is barely on this shit most of time and generally most people find Percy polite, if not outright friendly. I don't, and people most people will agree, think Percy is a prime offender, much more the worst offender on this site in terms of arguments or behavior. You have this trick, which did with Fallowfox (who is the stereotype of British politeness) or anyone calls you out, where you like to style them as being the absolute worst person on this site ... despite you actually being banned and disciplined on this site.

We can argue about how much a disability being overweight is. Compared to Parkinson's or cerebral palsy, it is probably less a burden to deal with, but being frank, those on the higher functioning end of the autism spectrum might be more able people with the aforementioned disabilities as well. Disabilities can be relative and each type of disability carries its own struggles. (Also, I admit I've never been overweight, so I might not be treating this with the due sensitivity it deserves.)

That said, some jurisdictions here and even in Canada consider obesity a disability since you can become obese due to injury (if you sustain a debilitating injury and can't exercise, for example), birth defects, or disease (see human adenovirus 36). Science has proven there are many factors lead to obesity that a good diet and exercise alone can't fix, though obviously everyone should be eating healthy and exercising.

Now where there might be some ambiguity about general disability and obesity, I don't think there is any question that here in the States, the QUILTBAG crowd is persecuted group, unambiguously. I've noticed you have a tendency to say the disabled face more trials and tribulations that queer folks and I don't know whether that is purely because you don't see a lot of discrimination against queer folks in Canada or just because you want to pit queer folks against the disabled while focusing on your struggles, but you constantly do it.

On the face of it, it is absurd to say to a queer American that "no one cares about sexuality" or that "there are laws against QUILTBAG discrimination, so they aren't systemically oppressed" because:

1.) It was only a couple of years ago the previous administration pushed a case through the courts to say that QUILTBAG Americans weren't covered by the Civil Rights Act and could be discriminated against in business and the workplace. To clarify, this would have allowed employers to fire QUILTBAG employees on the basis on of their identity and to discriminate against them in hiring process ... legally. 

2.) There was a literal ban of transgender people in the military, which damaged thousands of servicemembers' careers.

3.) If that wasn't serious enough for you, because I feel you'll blow off that off, there is this handy comprehensive list of how good queer folks had it here. 

4.) There also the current campaign against queer folks in various states here, often lead by state governments, especially Florida, forbidding them being mentioned in school curriculum and restricting the rights of transgender kids. 

So while you personally may never have faced discrimination for being queer (which is at best an anecdotal yardstick for discrimination), it's been a whole different ballgame for queer folks in the States. Laws are only as good as they are enforced and laws against discrimination can repealed or ignored by discriminatory authorities.

Furthermore, on more personal note to you, I remember you mentioned that a boss apparently derided you for your disability (you expressed pain going up a flight of stairs and he made some flip comment about it) and that you were allegedly terminated due to that disability. By your reasoning, since Canada has legal protections for disabled citizens, you can't possibly be systematically oppressed because surely laws on the books mean they are being observed to the letter and enforced vigorously. An asshole might say you need persevere despite your disability and make do. 

But obviously that would be wrong, both morally and practically.


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## Zenoth (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Eh, I'm calling bullshit on this.
> 
> First off, Percy is barely on this shit most of time and generally most people find Percy polite, if not outright friendly. I don't, and people most people will agree, think Percy is a prime offender, much more the worst offender on this site in terms of arguments or behavior. You have this trick, which did with Fallowfox (who is the stereotype of British politeness) or anyone calls you out, where you like to style them as being the absolute worst person on this site ... despite you actually being banned and disciplined on this site.
> 
> ...


Sir, your 'white knighting' is adorable but not needed to the extent you belive it is. 
You, almost comically, got point 4 wrong. Florida is not 'banning the word gay' from school, it's simply stating that 3rd grade is not the place and time for sex education classes. 
While it hasn't always been the case, in these current times it's very accepted to be gay, bi, or lesbian (I personally find the term "quiltbag" stupid, and hate when straight people use it) and people that attack people for their sexuality usually loose big (as it should be). While disabled people are still stigmatized, sadly, quite regularly in this country.


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## Regret (Sep 25, 2022)

This is one of these threads where I remember that there is a profound disconnect between the experiences I lived and continue to live and you guys.  Some of you guys are wild and need to take a step back.


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## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

Zenoth said:


> Sir, your 'white knighting' is adorable but not needed to the extent you belive it is.
> You, almost comically, got point 4 wrong. Florida is not 'banning the word gay' from school, it's simply stating that 3rd grade is not the place and time for sex education classes.
> While it hasn't always been the case, in these current times it's very accepted to be gay, bi, or lesbian (I personally find the term "quiltbag" stupid, and hate when straight people use it) and people that attack people for their sexuality usually loose big (as it should be). While disabled people are still stigmatized, sadly, quite regularly in this country.


I mean, I never say the word "gay" was banned, so you need to work on your reading comprehension. 

Furthermore, your understanding of the law is poor since the law has provisions pertaining to any QUILTBAG material being covered in any grade level, not just the sex education proscriptions for grade 3 and below. It also needs to be said that the law is being broadly interpreted, aggravating the situation. I'm assuming because you're Canadian, you're not, justifiably, familiar with the legal situation here.

 But I would think that little things like not being to conduct business, being denied housing, being vulnerable to removal from your workplace, and denied effective medical care qualify as serious discrimination that indicates a stigma. 

This list isn't inconsiderable:









						Under Trump, LGBTQ Progress Is Being Reversed in Plain Sight
					

Donald Trump promised he would fight for LGBTQ people. Instead, his administration has systematically undone recent gains in their rights and protections. Here are 31 examples.



					projects.propublica.org
				




Both QUILTBAG and disabled folks have struggles, but that shouldn't be used to downplay one group's struggles over the other.

Troj and Percy basically mirror my thoughts on the fandom stuff.


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## Punji (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Eh, I'm calling bullshit on this.
> 
> First off, Percy is barely on this shit most of time and generally most people find Percy polite, if not outright friendly. I don't, and people most people will agree, think Percy is a prime offender, much more the worst offender on this site in terms of arguments or behavior. You have this trick, which did with Fallowfox (who is the stereotype of British politeness) or anyone calls you out, where you like to style them as being the absolute worst person on this site ... despite you actually being banned and disciplined on this site.
> 
> ...


I guess you don't trust Percy to fight her own battles, hmm? The user in question has never been polite to anyone I've ever seen here. Not to me when I was polite to her and not to other people whole-heartedly supporting her during a fit over yet another imagined slight. Don't pretend people can't read these very public forums. As an unrequited courtesy to Fallow I dropped the history between us and forgot about it. I could just as easily post screenshots of the half-dozen times I very politely asked him to treat me with even a shred of decency and his immediate responses where he did very much the opposite. Not only is this a massive and irrelevant strawman, it's also blatantly false. I have always been far kinder to both and to you than any are kind to me.

Being overweight is a temporary condition. Physical or mental disables are almost universally permanent and much more extreme. I'm physically incapable of exercise and am forced to live a very sessile life, yet I've never been medically overweight and still lost thirty pounds over the last handful of months. My actual disability is totally permanent and actually affects my life in a volume of ways other people struggle to fully comprehend. It's truly a mockery to equate the two.

As above, there is nothing that creates obesity inherently. Fat tissues don't just spontaneously generate within the body. It may lead to disability over a prolonged period of time but is in no way a disability on its own.

Legally this is simply not true in either nation. I based my statements off reality; I've seen hundreds of pride flags, hear about dozens of pride parades, constantly see forced representation for LGBTs, and we even have a month-long period of awareness backed by globocorps and media giants the whole time. Meanwhile even in a very progressive city handicap parking is minimal or even nonexistent with few benches or places to rest. I visited a local police station not too long ago and had to pay for parking two blocks away. Meanwhile there's rainbow crosswalks everywhere. No one actually cares about either group but there's at least social pressure to shut up about anti-LGBT sentiments. And of course, I say this as someone who is *both* disabled and queer. Only one of them has really been an issue for me personally and it's not the one everyone else seems to complain about.

1. This has only been the case for some parts of America. Canada has been ahead of that curve for some time, as this was added to Canadian law in 1996.
2. There are many reasons for why this was done, but even so I don't see this as a huge issue to not allow certain people to be used and spat out. The only good things about my disability are handicap parking (which one has to apply for) and effective immunity to a draft. Maybe that's just me.
3. Literally politics, not even going to read that one. As you know, politics are against the rules now, Miles.
4. Once again, NO POLITICS. Secondly, don't be ridiculous. Removal of these concepts from young children in public schools is not a removal of rights. Parents are still free to teach their children n these matters as they see fit, and personally I don't feel children so young should be exposed to concepts they couldn't understand. Wait until puberty.

Very nice, now let's see the list of disability concerns. The onset of disability has resulted in far more Americans losing their military careers for example, but that's just seen as okay.

Yes, and no. That's partly correct. My at the time boss asked me if I could go up stairs with my disability, over a year into my position. A visually healthy, ~6'2 athletically built young adult who had been managing the position perfectly fine for over a year was suddenly incapable of basic movement in his mind when I told him of my disability. This was a short and wide balding guy in his late 40s whom I towered over. The entire concept he had of me for so long was worthless when he found out I had a disability, and that was seen as okay by everyone else. If I told him I had a boyfriend instead, it wouldn't have been okay anymore for him to react like that. The one who fired me over my disability was another guy altogether. I'd have loved to sue, but in a court of law it would have simply been his word against mine and my circumstantial case. The only reason I kept my job from the previous position was because the man could not fire me without a reason and that legally this reason couldn't be my disability.



Miles Marsalis said:


> An asshole might say you need persevere despite your disability and make do.
> 
> But obviously that would be wrong, both morally and practically.


You say this, but my genuine advice to others with disability is exactly so. The world doesn't care, it won't try to help often.

What can I do? There is nothing to help in any way beyond my own self. I could never rely on others such as yourself to help me, even if you somehow could.


----------



## Zenoth (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, I never say the word "gay" was banned, so you need to work on your reading comprehension.


Right there in Point 4 of your wall of text, it says quite clearly , "forbidding them being mentioned"[SIC].  Shall I send you a digital Thesaurus?


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

Punji said:


> You say this, but my genuine advice to others with disability is exactly so. The world doesn't care, it won't try to help often.
> 
> What can I do? There is nothing to help in any way beyond my own self. I could never rely on others such as yourself to help me, even if you somehow could.


I mean, I don't doubt your personal situation of being disabled left you with that impression, but I'd point that society has come a long way in how we treat the disabled. Accessibility standards and programs to help the disabled lead productive and enjoyable lives do exist now, in large part due to social progress on that front.

I believe in people helping themselves, sometimes people need help to help themselves and a safety net doesn't hurt.



Zenoth said:


> Right there in Point 4 of your wall of text, it says quite clearly , "forbidding them being mentioned"[SIC].  Shall I send you a digital Thesaurus?


"Them" being QUILTBAG folks, which should be self-explanatory, but clearly not.


----------



## Filter (Sep 25, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Benjamin Franklin was into some kinky stuff actually. He did attend Hellfire Club meetings after all.


I wouldn't be surprised. Ben Franklin is one of my favorite historical figures. I wonder if Voltaire did too.


----------



## Smityyyy (Sep 25, 2022)

I’m sorely disappointed at the lack of awareness of intersectionality and regional struggle.


----------



## Punji (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, I don't doubt your personal situation of being disabled left you with that impression, but I'd point that society has come a long way in how we treat the disabled. Accessibility standards and programs to help the disabled lead productive and enjoyable lives do exist now, in large part due to social progress on that front.
> 
> I believe in people helping themselves, sometimes people need help to help themselves and a safety net doesn't hurt.


Unfortunately even so, the accessibility options for severely disabled people are very marginal. Often any supports are stigmatized and/or expensive as well.

I agree completely.


----------



## Smityyyy (Sep 25, 2022)

Punji said:


> Unfortunately even so, the accessibility options for severely disabled people are very marginal. Often any supports are stigmatized and/or expensive as well.
> 
> I agree completely.



This is where I often remind people that the USA has the best protections in the world for disabled folks… and even what we have ain’t enough. Slapping on the bare minimum shouldn’t be what we celebrate, but here we are. The ADA has changed lives for many Americans but the _cost _of healthcare makes it really hard to even use these protections to their full extent.

I look forward to a better future for those of us who have disabilities — visible or invisible. My recommendation to people is to get out and vote locally for better accommodations for your neighbors with disabilities and continue to be a voice for access laws. Whether or not you’re disabled, we need more support for the cause. 

I’m sorry for your situation, and I can relate. Having a poorly-understood disability can make life stressful and hard to navigate. And most folks just don’t _get it. _


----------



## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Zenoth said:


> Sir, your 'white knighting' is adorable but not needed to the extent you belive it is.
> You, almost comically, got point 4 wrong. Florida is not 'banning the word gay' from school, it's simply stating that 3rd grade is not the place and time for sex education classes.
> While it hasn't always been the case, in these current times it's very accepted to be gay, bi, or lesbian (I personally find the term "quiltbag" stupid, and hate when straight people use it) and people that attack people for their sexuality usually loose big (as it should be). While disabled people are still stigmatized, sadly, quite regularly in this country.


I think QUILTBAG is fun and should be used more often. But thats neither here nor there.


----------



## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Benjamin Franklin was into some kinky stuff actually. He did attend Hellfire Club meetings after all.


Ben Franklin I'm 100% sure would have had a turkey sona. He also was an avid erotica writer apparently.

 His friends knew he was weird but they accepted him any way. Besides, he was brilliant and his eccentricities just were part of the package.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

I want to split this up Punji, because you clearly don't understand the case law.


Punji said:


> 1. This has only been the case for some parts of America. Canada has been ahead of that curve for some time, as this was added to Canadian law in 1996.


First off, had the previous administration won its case regarding the language in the Civil Rights Act, it would have applied federally here in the United States, not just in "some parts of America". I previously that because of your relatively cozy position of being Canada, you might not be unfamiliar with the case here, which you response bore out. 



Punji said:


> 2. There are many reasons for why this was done, but even so I don't see this as a huge issue to not allow certain people to be used and spat out. The only good things about my disability are handicap parking (which one has to apply for) and effective immunity to a draft. Maybe that's just me.


There were many wrong reasons why this was done and you're trying cast people serving their country in military as being "used and spat out" to cover your ass. Also the draft hasn't been an issue in this country for decades; everyone in the military goes in voluntarily. The majority of DOD officials and military commanders advised against the ban and clearly laid out why it would harm our military's ability to complete its ongoing missions, including the SecDef, but the administration did anyway for political purposes.



Punji said:


> 3. Literally politics, not even going to read that one. As you know, politics are against the rules now, Miles.


This is literally bullshit because you know you've been caught out and it is merely a list of the rights QUILTBAG people have had rolled back. It's no different from you listing the struggles disabled citizens face and me calling that "political". 

People have a right to their rights, or lack thereof, acknowledged.



Punji said:


> 4. Once again, NO POLITICS. Secondly, don't be ridiculous. Removal of these concepts from young children in public schools is not a removal of rights. Parents are still free to teach their children n these matters as they see fit, and personally I don't feel children so young should be exposed to concepts they couldn't understand. Wait until puberty.


Once again, this is a cop out on your part. It's not like this law is banning queer pornography or sex education for being presented in grade 3 and below. It is going so far as to ban even the mentioning of gay historical figures or the gay rights movements in school curriculum. Teachers are not allowed mention they are queer either. 

Additionally, you brought politics into this by your comments regarding discrimination laws here in the first place.



Punji said:


> Yes, and no. That's partly correct. My at the time boss asked me if I could go up stairs with my disability, over a year into my position. A visually healthy, ~6'2 athletically built young adult who had been managing the position perfectly fine for over a year was suddenly incapable of basic movement in his mind when I told him of my disability. This was a short and wide balding guy in his late 40s whom I towered over. The entire concept he had of me for so long was worthless when he found out I had a disability, and that was seen as okay by everyone else. If I told him I had a boyfriend instead, it wouldn't have been okay anymore for him to react like that. The one who fired me over my disability was another guy altogether. I'd have loved to sue, but in a court of law it would have simply been his word against mine and my circumstantial case. The only reason I kept my job from the previous position was because the man could not fire me without a reason and that legally this reason couldn't be my disability.



Both bosses sound like employees of my worst clients and assholes for that. Just my opinion.

I didn't realize those were two separate situations, but that doesn't detract from what I said and how shitty were you treated. 

I'd point out that with the first boss you mentioned, he was unable to fire you because legal protections you had to being disabled. Respect and acceptance for the disabled is extremely important, but what is even more important on a practical level are legal protections for vulnerable groups like disabled (and separately QUILTBAG) folks that allow them to work in and navigate society regardless of people's attitudes. That was the reasoning behind the Civil Rights Act here, which was meant to combat racism and forms of discrimination in the workplace.



Punji said:


> Being overweight is a temporary condition. Physical or mental disables are almost universally permanent and much more extreme. I'm physically incapable of exercise and am forced to live a very sessile life, yet I've never been medically overweight and still lost thirty pounds over the last handful of months. My actual disability is totally permanent and actually affects my life in a volume of ways other people struggle to fully comprehend. It's truly a mockery to equate the two.
> 
> As above, there is nothing that creates obesity inherently. Fat tissues don't just spontaneously generate within the body. It may lead to disability over a prolonged period of time but is in no way a disability on its own.


I mean, I'll reiterate that disabilities can be relative to each other and there are variety of ways someone can be obese that they have little to no power over. They can be born with a condition that cause them to slowly gain weight and not put it off over time. They could sustain an injury that makes it impossible to lose the weight through diet and exercise. I also mentioned adenovirus, which is prevalent in many populations. 



Punji said:


> I guess you don't trust Percy to fight her own battles, hmm? The user in question has never been polite to anyone I've ever seen here. Not to me when I was polite to her and not to other people whole-heartedly supporting her during a fit over yet another imagined slight. Don't pretend people can't read these very public forums. As an unrequited courtesy to Fallow I dropped the history between us and forgot about it. I could just as easily post screenshots of the half-dozen times I very politely asked him to treat me with even a shred of decency and his immediate responses where he did very much the opposite. Not only is this a massive and irrelevant strawman, it's also blatantly false. I have always been far kinder to both and to you than any are kind to me.


I'll point what you say back at you; this is a public forum and people see what you do. I think Fallow and Percy both are well-known and well-liked enough that most people on the forum would disagree with your characterization.


----------



## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I'll point what you say back at you; this is a public forum and people see what you do. I think Fallow and Percy both are well-known and well-liked enough that most people on the forum would disagree with your characterization.


Just FYI.
I appreciate Miles. And his hot takes are usually good. I learn a lot from him.When they're not, he's also willing to listen and learn.


But I've already made the decision to block Punji and Yakamaru. Primarily because they aren't gonna say anything new or profound. And I'm not gonna waste my time with folks who are gonna purposefully misread me. I've been consistently saying the same thing over and over again. Theyre not gonna get it. And they are gonna contine to derail the thread with their ignorance.

Case and point- when I revealed what Punji has said he's over there in blocked land saying I've never been polite in my fucking life. Lol.
I don't give a fuck, bro. Being rude to you in particular isn't against the law. That's all you could pull up on me? That I'm rude? 
I should report you for attacking me and harassment. But that would involve me unblocking you and going through your shit takes. Not worth my time.

Keep my name out of your posts. You are embarrassing yourself.


----------



## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> I’m sorely disappointed at the lack of awareness of intersectionality and regional struggle.


Yep. Thats another thing. Most of these actual oppressed people are in the community. I'm one of them. If we are gonna talk about oppression of furries, thats about as close as we'll get. Particularly since a lot of these oppressed people cant survive without a community, and the furry community has to stand in for that.
But that has nothing to do with the hobby beyond someone only getting exposure to these issues because their furry friends are impacted.

Its better to talk about how we can help. Maybe how we can use the hobby as a guise. Increasing employment opportunities for oppressed individuals. Etc etc


----------



## Zenoth (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> QUILTBAG material being covered in any grade level, not just the sex education proscriptions for grade 3 and below. It also needs to be said that the law is being broadly interpreted, aggravating the situation. I'm assuming because you're Canadian, you're not, justifiably, familiar with the legal situation here.


Lol, typical of you Miles, sadly typical. A lgbt person tells you that using the term quiltbag as a straight person is , in their opinion stupid and offputting, and you continue to do so when communicating with said person. Also you know I'm not Canadian from our previous interactions. It seems you also haven't read the law at all or you would know what you are saying, is wrong. 

 As for on topic; furry as a fandom is pretty accaptable, our conventions aren't a underground hidden thing.  Like all slightly odd fandoms there will be people that make fun of it.


----------



## Zenoth (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> I think QUILTBAG is fun and should be used more often. But thats neither here nor there.


To each their own.  In my opinion it came across as a new attempt at a slur, when I first heard it.


----------



## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Zenoth said:


> To each their own.  In my opinion it came across as a new attempt at a slur, when I first heard it.


That's unfortunate. QUILTBAG is fun. Plus, it's pretty representative of what we are. Its a collection of experiences, swaths of identies, formed into a neat and helpful utility. Think about it~


----------



## Punji (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> First off, had the previous administration won its case regarding the language in the Civil Rights Act, it would have applied federally here in the United States, not just in "some parts of America". I previously that because of your relatively cozy position of being Canada, you might not be unfamiliar with the case here, which you response bore out.


I don't see why my own personal anecdotes shouldn't be worth anything if Percy's are supposed to be valuable. I'm being generous here and relating to a foreign country rather than having other users try to relate to mine, so don't blame me if I don't bother to cite all your posts for you. Canada, where I live and have always lived, has had this policy in place for a long time. Legal protection has been the case for Canadians for a quarter century and I'm sure even the ass-backwards US has seen cases where hate-motivations were related to criminal sentencing.



Miles Marsalis said:


> There were many wrong reasons why this was done and you're trying cast people serving their country in military as being "used and spat out" to cover your ass. Also the draft hasn't been an issue in this country for decades; everyone in the military goes in voluntarily. The majority of DOD officials and military commanders advised against the ban and clearly laid out why it would harm our military's ability to complete its ongoing missions, including the SecDef, but the administration did anyway for political purposes.


"""Voluntarily""" you say. _Right_. Men are required to sign up for the draft to access a number of social programs as well as to avoid potential penalties. This is just getting too political for the FAF Miles. I'm starting to get very bored and it's losing focus.



Miles Marsalis said:


> This is literally bullshit because you know you've been caught out and it is merely a list of the rights QUILTBAG people have had rolled back. It's no different from you listing the struggles disabled citizens face and me calling that "political".
> 
> People have a right to their rights, or lack thereof, acknowledged.


Literally didn't read it after seeing the title. Another garbage clickbait waste of time I'm sure. A reputable source would be nice. If these claims were true, you could cite them from a government source, not just a media fear-mongering outlet.



Miles Marsalis said:


> Once again, this is a cop out on your part. It's not like this law is banning queer pornography or sex education for being presented in grade 3 and below. It is going so far as to ban even the mentioning of gay historical figures or the gay rights movements in school curriculum. Teachers are not allowed mention they are queer either.
> 
> Additionally, you brought politics into this by your comments regarding discrimination laws here in the first place.


No, it's quite appropriate. Ask a small child what "gay" means, they're not gonna know or care. It's not appropriate for the age group, nor is it "stripping rights" from anyone. You're being very disingenuous.



Miles Marsalis said:


> Both bosses sound like employees of my worst clients and assholes for that. Just my opinion.
> 
> I didn't realize those were two separate situations, but that doesn't detract from what I said and how shitty were you treated.
> 
> I'd point out that with the first boss you mentioned, he was unable to fire you because legal protections you had to being disabled. Respect and acceptance for the disabled is extremely important, but what is even more important on a practical level are legal protections for vulnerable groups like disabled (and separately QUILTBAG) folks that allow them to work in and navigate society regardless of people's attitudes. That was the reasoning behind the Civil Rights Act here, which was meant to combat racism and forms of discrimination in the workplace.


They were both awful. Really just short-term dead-end jobs so I guess, _ya' know_. It's what one should come to expect I guess. Other companies I worked for have been much better.

Exactly as I said, I wasn't fired because he couldn't fire me. I had legal protection. He didn't know until then because I wanted to have a job, and telling people I'm disabled is generally not a good idea for these kinds of things. Discrimination is alive and well, but from other people, not the system or my government.



Miles Marsalis said:


> I mean, I'll reiterate that disabilities can be relative to each other and there are variety of ways someone can be obese that they have little to no power over. They can be born with a condition that cause them to slowly gain weight and not put it off over time. They could sustain an injury that makes it impossible to lose the weight through diet and exercise. I also mentioned adenovirus, which is prevalent in many populations.


It's quite literally impossible to gain weight from nothing. Once again I am literally unable to exercise or burn fat through exertion, it's literally not possible for me. This is what an actual disability can be like. Being fat is not the same thing, nor are the two equvalent.



Miles Marsalis said:


> I'll point what you say back at you; this is a public forum and people see what you do. I think Fallow and Percy both are well-known and well-liked enough that most people on the forum would disagree with your characterization.


It's very much in your "friends'" best interests for you to drop this, Miles.



			https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/which-things-you-guys-hate-on-the-furry-community.1681040/
		


Here's a very public account of one of those users being an awful, toxic and disruptive presence. The other user again is known as a prick to everyone who doesn't _appear_ to align politically. I'm a lot nicer to the lot of you than the inverse and I always have been. You all know that, and acting like the two and more are good, decent people does not match the reality of their very public posts.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

Zenoth said:


> Lol, typical of you Miles, sadly typical. A lgbt person tells you that using the term quiltbag as a straight person is , in their opinion stupid and offputting, and you continue to do so when communicating with said person. Also you know I'm not Canadian from our previous interactions. It seems you also haven't read the law at all or you would know what you are saying, is wrong.
> 
> As for on topic; furry as a fandom is pretty accaptable, our conventions aren't a underground hidden thing.  Like all slightly odd fandoms there will be people that make fun of it.


I mean, I outlined the Florida law has provisions that apply to all grades that are restrictive and forbid the teaching of LGBT material; you're specifically and intentionally only referring to the provisions meant for grades 3 and below. Which you would know if you either read the law.

I thought you were Canadian, but I admit we don't talk much, probably to our mutual benefit.

And last time I checked, QUILTBAG wasn't a slur.


----------



## Regret (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> And last time I checked, QUILTBAG wasn't a slur.


Going to be real here, this is my first time ever seeing this initialism/acronym (?), and if it wasn’t for people here using it I would assume it’s a slur on first glance.


----------



## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Regret said:


> Going to be real here, this is my first time ever seeing this initialism/acronym (?), and if it wasn’t for people here using it I would assume it’s a slur on first glance.


Its not a slur. Trust me.


----------



## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

Punji said:


> I don't see why my own personal anecdotes shouldn't be worth anything if Percy's are supposed to be valuable. I'm being generous here and relating to a foreign country rather than having other users try to relate to mine, so don't blame me if I don't bother to cite all your posts for you. Canada, where I live and have always lived, has had this policy in place for a long time. Legal protection has been the case for Canadians for a quarter century and I'm sure even the ass-backwards US has seen cases where hate-motivations were related to criminal sentencing.


I've used your personal anecdotes, so I wouldn't say they're completely useless. I'd point out that I was referring to your clear misunderstanding of our legal system here being someone not from here. 

I'd also point you very much argue for our most ass-backward tendencies, thank you very much.



Punji said:


> """Voluntarily""" you say. _Right_. Men are required to sign up for the draft to access a number of social programs as well as to avoid potential penalties. This is just getting too political for the FAF Miles. I'm starting to get very bored and it's losing focus.


I never relied on those programs except for the ones geared towards college (and you need to register with the Selective Service for college), but I think it's a fair trade for most part. You get access to government benefits and college in exchange for registering for a potential, which hasn't been called in decades and probably won't be. I'll admit that I was willing to do ROTC in college to fund my education, though my university didn't offer the program and applicants got diverted to a readiness program on weekends. If I had to, or have to if I'm still eligible, go into service due to a draft, I'll go because that is the deal. 

There aren't any free lunches and there is a draft in the future, it wouldn't be called lightly, so hey.

I'd point out that if you are willing to forego those programs and college, you probably don't have to register or at least won't be caught up in it.



Punji said:


> Literally didn't read it after seeing the title. Another garbage clickbait waste of time I'm sure. A reputable source would be nice. If these claims were true, you could cite them from a government source, not just a media fear-mongering outlet.


ProPublica is bipartisan anti-corruption publication; they don't have a political agenda.

But of course the itemized list of how LGBT rights have violated and how queer folks are discriminated against here blows away your argument that they haven't been systematically oppressed. This also explains why you'd dismiss the list as "political" despite being the first one to make sure a political assertion here. 

I'd encourage everyone reading this to view this list and see how persuasive it is, though.









						Under Trump, LGBTQ Progress Is Being Reversed in Plain Sight
					

Donald Trump promised he would fight for LGBTQ people. Instead, his administration has systematically undone recent gains in their rights and protections. Here are 31 examples.



					projects.propublica.org
				




Additionally, the article directly cites government sources and policies.



Punji said:


> No, it's quite appropriate. Ask a small child what "gay" means, they're not gonna know or care. It's not appropriate for the age group, nor is it "stripping rights" from anyone. You're being very disingenuous.


I know kids in and outside my family who know what gay means and who were taught it in school. It's no different from kids learning about black history (which is also being banned in the curriculum in Florida) or women's history. The eleven-year-old in my household knows about gay couples and he grew in a conservative household before he came here. 

I can see not teaching sex education geared towards gay students to young children, but teaching kids about the gay rights movement, gay historical figures, and that gay people basically exist is appropriate.



Punji said:


> It's very much in your "friends'" best interests for you to drop this, Miles.
> 
> https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/which-things-you-guys-hate-on-the-furry-community.1681040/
> Here's a very public account of one of those users being an awful, toxic and disruptive presence. The other user again is known as a prick to everyone who doesn't _appear_ to align politically. I'm a lot nicer to the lot of you than the inverse and I always have been. You all know that, and acting like the two and more are good, decent people does not match the reality of their very public posts.


I'm surprised you brought this thread up, honestly, because that thread doesn't cast you in a good light at all and multiple people, some whom don't even know, agreed you out of line there and dogwhistling, in wake of user advocating for the religious murder of queer folks no less.


----------



## Guifrog (Sep 25, 2022)

*scratches head*

As for those who don't know what furry is in my country, I don't know. But fursuiters tend to cause amused reactions


----------



## Punji (Sep 25, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> Blah blah blah politics blah blah blah









Politics, personal attacks, and disingenuousness. This is getting very dull. It's still against the rules. Once again if you must post drivel here at least source the government. Not some media hit piece, not some "apolitical" political organization.



Miles Marsalis said:


> I know kids in and outside my family who know what gay means and who were taught it in school. It's no different from kids learning about black history (which is also being banned in the curriculum in Florida) or women's history. The eleven-year-old in my household knows about gay couples and he grew in a conservative household before he came here.
> 
> I can see not teaching sex education geared towards gay students to young children, but teaching kids about the gay rights movement, gay historical figures, and that gay people basically exist is appropriate.



Probably because some other kid called them "gay" and the kids asked what that meant, same as the rest of us. Keep in mind LGBT people are still an extreme minority. Teaching people the gays exist doesn't really matter, it's not exactly an inconceivable concept. Kids will grow up to be gay or whatever with or without being told it's a minor possibility. The only reason this is even supposedly taught is for people to pretend they care about LGBT rights when we've already had the same rights for a long time. As always, I think Morgan Freeman's approach of "just stop talking about it" is the right one. Stop acting like it's this great special thing and maybe people will stop caring so much. It will be seen as normal when it's treated normally.



Miles Marsalis said:


> I'm surprised you brought this thread up, honestly, because that thread doesn't cast you in a good light at all and multiple people, some whom don't even know, agreed you out of line there and dogwhistling, in wake of user advocating for the religious murder of queer folks no less.


It's very telling you'd say so, dear old buddy ol' pal. This is the thread in which I repeatedly asked other users to stop dog-piling and bullying other users over imagined slights and petty grudges. I told you and the above personally to be better people, and overall I acted once again more professionally and more politely than either.

You try to make things up and attack me on the assumption no one will bother to read the linked thread. The only dogwhistles ever used on this forum is ironically "dogwhistle." It's a meaningless term used to justify attacks when you don't like someone.

I've been attacked by the both of you here once again because I ask that people's problems are treated with equal concern where others only want attention drawn to their own problems. View issues faced by others only as issues and other people as people instead of lesser problems or lesser groups. I talked at length of my issues with disability and the lack there of with being LGBT to demonstrate this: Different people have different problems. I want people to be able to discuss their problems as they need to. *Not *to talk over the problems of others because they're "less important."

I don't believe you nor the other users in question care at all about the problems of others. This entire debacle started because someone felt they were more important than everyone else's concerns here.


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## Smityyyy (Sep 25, 2022)

@Punji I’m sorry but the “just stop talking about it” line has never, and will never work. Gay marriage is illegal in the vast majority of the world. And in the countries where it is legal, decades of systemic discrimination takes time to undo. The second you legalize something across a nation doesn’t erase the hate or medical ignorance that has flourished unchecked for decades.

Just because Walmart slaps a pride flag on their stores for one month per year doesn’t change the medical neglect, hate crimes, employment discrimination, domestic abuse, and sexual violence rates that LGBTQ+ face. And that’s in developed countries. In many parts of the world… we’d just be killed or jailed.

No fight for civil rights has _ever _been won by shutting up. This is the same line that conservatives have used for decades to shut down civil rights movements for everything under the sun. Change is made by loud, annoying, and persistent activism. And so far… it’s working. We’ve seen nothing but increased acceptance toward LGBTQ+ folks over time.

The second legal protections are put into place isn’t where civil rights fights just end. Many parts of even the most developed countries still openly assault or even kill LGBTQ+. We’re far from being in a time where all activism just stops. We’re not yet at the end of history.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Filter said:


> I wouldn't be surprised. Ben Franklin is one of my favorite historical figures. I wonder if Voltaire did too.


I am sure Voltaire may have had a cache of erotica fiction. At the very least, it is my headcanon that they may have been erotica rivals--


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> @Punji I’m sorry but the “just stop talking about it” line has never, and will never work. Gay marriage is illegal in the vast majority of the world. And in the countries where it is legal, decades of systemic discrimination takes time to undo. The second you legalize something across a nation doesn’t erase the hate or medical ignorance that has flourished unchecked for decades.
> 
> Just because Walmart slaps a pride flag on their stores for one month per year doesn’t change the medical neglect, hate crimes, employment discrimination, domestic abuse, and sexual violence rates that LGBTQ+ face. And that’s in developed countries. In many parts of the world… we’d just be killed or jailed.
> 
> ...


They honestly have a habit of shutting down these kinds of conversations, from what I have seen...


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## Miles Marsalis (Sep 25, 2022)

Punji said:


> Politics, personal attacks, and disingenuousness. This is getting very dull. It's still against the rules. Once again if you must post drivel here at least source the government. Not some media hit piece, not some "apolitical" political organization.


It's getting dull because you don't a reasonable answer to it.

The articles has direct links to legislation and executive orders, since it is a journalistic publication. If you're too lazy and disingenuous to read it like an adult, that is fine. But there are 31 examples of rights being from QUILTBAG citizens in this country, listed for your convenience.

Don't hide behind not wanting to be political when you started this off with a very political assertion in the first place. 



Punji said:


> Probably because some other kid called them "gay" and the kids asked what that meant, same as the rest of us. Keep in mind LGBT people are still an extreme minority. Teaching people the gays exist doesn't really matter, it's not exactly an inconceivable concept. Kids will grow up to be gay or whatever with or without being told it's a minor possibility. The only reason this is even supposedly taught is for people to pretend they care about LGBT rights when we've already had the same rights for a long time. As always, I think Morgan Freeman's approach of "just stop talking about it" is the right one. Stop acting like it's this great special thing and maybe people will stop caring so much. It will be seen as normal when it's treated normally.


You may have had those rights for a long time in Canada, but here gay marriage became federal ... in 2015. That only happened because of an uptick in activism spearheading the issue and legal organizations pressing the case all the way up to the Supreme Court. 

Even now, there are states with legislation to allow "religious exceptions" for businesses to deny service to gay customers and it wasn't too long ago that sodomy laws were on the books. 

I'd argue that like the civil rights movement, there has only been traction on the gay rights front because people paying attention to it and activism around it.



Punji said:


> It's very telling you'd say so, dear old buddy ol' pal. This is the thread in which I repeatedly asked other users to stop dog-piling and bullying other users over imagined slights and petty grudges. I told you and the above personally to be better people, and overall I acted once again more professionally and more politely than either.
> 
> You try to make things up and attack me on the assumption no one will bother to read the linked thread. The only dogwhistles ever used on this forum is ironically "dogwhistle." It's a meaningless term used to justify attacks when you don't like someone.
> 
> ...


Percy very clearly said that both struggles of QUILTBAG and disabled people are valid and real, though. Percy wasn't trying to say one group has it worse than the other or talk over your struggle. 

You are misrepresenting thing here like how you did on that thread. 

Furthermore, that user being ganged up thought it was alright to murder queer folks for religious reasons.


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## Smityyyy (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> They honestly have a habit of shutting down these kinds of conversations, from what I have seen...



I figured as much. Just not going to allow for this same line to get thrown around over and over. LGBT kids deserve education and acceptance. Our community deserves a loud voice. All minorities deserve to stand up and _demand _better. 

It’s unfortunate that in 2022 I’m still seeing these talking-points from back in 2012. Hell, even decades before that. During MLK’s time, people spat the same lines at him.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> I figured as much. Just not going to allow for this same line to get thrown around over and over. LGBT kids deserve education and acceptance. Our community deserves a loud voice. All minorities deserve to stand up and _demand _better.
> 
> It’s unfortunate that in 2022 I’m still seeing these talking-points from back in 2012. Hell, even decades before that. During MLK’s time, people spat the same lines at him.


It only gets better with organization and movement from communities.

Getting back to what I originally posted: There are a lot of Ne'er-do-well and bad faith actors who try to co-op the Furry community for their means. They use our language that we use for activism and talking about our struggles and pervert it. Fascists in this community come in and try to hijack it for themselves and silence people.

_I'm not letting them have it, personally._ This is our shit.


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## Baron Tredegar (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> I am sure Voltaire may have had a cache of erotica fiction. At the very least, it is my headcanon that they may have been erotica rivals--


The Marquis de Sade also lived at the same time, and I can also easily see Thomas Jefferson writing some erotica.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> The Marquis de Sade also lived at the same time, and I can also easily see Thomas Jefferson writing some erotica.


Nah, Jefferson acted out the erotica. Lol. Boy was a freak.


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## Baron Tredegar (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Nah, Jefferson acted out the erotica. Lol. Boy was a freak.


Yeah, Jeffersons personal life was pretty messed up.


migguy24 said:


> You’re all disgusting zoophiles, go kill yourselves XD


Are you going to have some more original insults?


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Yeah, Jeffersons personal life was pretty messed up.


I dont wanna slut shame, but he was kinda a slut.


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## Deleted member 127940 (Sep 25, 2022)

I wonder how many tickets Flamingo is going to wake up to.


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## Foxridley (Sep 25, 2022)

RAM said:


> I wonder how many tickets Flamingo is going to wake up to.


Yes.


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## Baron Tredegar (Sep 25, 2022)

RAM said:


> I wonder how many tickets Flamingo is going to wake up to.


Between the fighting and the 12 year old anti fur I think this thread will probably be locked.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Baron Tredegar said:


> Between the fighting and the 12 year old anti fur I think this thread will probably be locked.


Get your posts in while you can~.


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## Baron Tredegar (Sep 25, 2022)

PercyD said:


> Get your posts in while you can~.






Any final arguments and derailing of the thread should be posted while you have the chance!


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 25, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Change is made by loud, annoying, and persistent activism.


Not nearly as much as you think it does.  I need to play the asshole here and alert you that this grandiose stuff only causes the people that actually need to change to entrench.

You familiar with the concept of deradicalization?  I'm fairly damn sure it doesn't rely on big-name feel-goods.  No, everything I've understood of the process is that it's quieter and _far_ more involved.

I am going to keep bringing this up until the end of days because I too often see activists refuse to even think about it.  It's sad because there's about to be some incoming pushback in the world and this subtle approach is damn well necessary to defeat it.  Outscreaming pushback doesn't work, sorry.


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## PercyD (Sep 25, 2022)

Firuthi Dragovic said:


> Not nearly as much as you think it does.  I need to play the asshole here and alert you that this grandiose stuff only causes the people that actually need to change to entrench.
> 
> You familiar with the concept of deradicalization?  I'm fairly damn sure it doesn't rely on big-name feel-goods.  No, everything I've understood of the process is that it's quieter and _far_ more involved.
> 
> I am going to keep bringing this up until the end of days because I too often see activists refuse to even think about it.  It's sad because there's about to be some incoming pushback in the world and this subtle approach is damn well necessary to defeat it.  Outscreaming pushback doesn't work, sorry.


I also need to chime in here--

The only people who need to change are the people with power. Most of the people who you are referring to who entrench are on the edges of society. Plus, this is pretty tone deaf.
We should always be able to demand to be treated like human beings. Sitting quietly and waiting for people to change isn't gonna help. Those who entrench were intending on entrenching from the get go. Fortunately, you don't need them to change. You just need to challenge the people in power.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 26, 2022)

PercyD said:


> The only people who need to change are the people with power. Most of the people who you are referring to who entrench are on the edges of society.


From which they lure people until they're big enough to do real damage to a movement, or cause serious crimes.  You have no idea of the full extent of how hate groups and cults work, do you?


PercyD said:


> Plus, this is pretty tone deaf.


*NO IT ISN'T.*  Not with the current rise of hate groups.  My intent here is for these hate groups to be truly _gone_ so the oppressed groups no longer need to worry, and what you did by calling this tone-deaf is basically belittle that notion.  Which is _dangerous._


PercyD said:


> We should always be able to demand to be treated like human beings. Sitting quietly and waiting for people to change isn't gonna help.


Something you seem to have missed here, and I admittedly may have not stated it well, is that subtlety CAN, in fact, work in tandem with the loud shit.  And it needs to.


PercyD said:


> Fortunately, you don't need them to change. You just need to challenge the people in power.


Wrong again - not confronting the hate at its source is exactly how it got an opportunity to raise its ugly head again.  I'm talking a full uprooting here.  I'm not even interested in allowing it an opportunity to grow in places like prisons either.  No, at some point you will have to go all the way on this.


I'm actually trying to take things seriously for once and to see someone shout me down because it just happens to sound slightly like a thing used to shut down conversations is quite aggravating.

You've missed the mark BIG TIME on this one.


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## Punji (Sep 26, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> @MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I’m sorry but the “just stop talking about it” line has never, and will never work. Gay marriage is illegal in the vast majority of the world. And in the countries where it is legal, decades of systemic discrimination takes time to undo. The second you legalize something across a nation doesn’t erase the hate or medical ignorance that has flourished unchecked for decades.
> 
> Just because Walmart slaps a pride flag on their stores for one month per year doesn’t change the medical neglect, hate crimes, employment discrimination, domestic abuse, and sexual violence rates that LGBTQ+ face. And that’s in developed countries. In many parts of the world… we’d just be killed or jailed.
> 
> ...


You're shifting the goalposts here Smitty. All the crap that goes on here is not done for anywhere else. We've only been referring to the US & Canada thus far. Corporations only support gay rights in the Western world as we all know. Making a big deal out of everything when it's already legally and socially accepted is just working against a seamless cohesion.

Beyond this, this isn't a fight for civil rights anymore. Not for the previously mentioned US & Canada. It's more about full acceptance by everyone, and that's not going to happen by treating each other like different groups of people altogether. People need to treat each other as people and not as hetero verses not.



Smityyyy said:


> I figured as much. Just not going to allow for this same line to get thrown around over and over. LGBT kids deserve education and acceptance. Our community deserves a loud voice. All minorities deserve to stand up and _demand _better.
> 
> It’s unfortunate that in 2022 I’m still seeing these talking-points from back in 2012. Hell, even decades before that. During MLK’s time, people spat the same lines at him.


I'm simply calling out toxic self-centred behaviours where an individual wants to talk over other people because they think their problems are more important.

No one would try to "shut the conversation down" if it had it's own thread right from the start instead of simply attacking this one.



Miles Marsalis said:


> POLITICS
> 
> Percy very clearly said that both struggles of QUILTBAG and disabled people are valid and real, though. Percy wasn't trying to say one group has it worse than the other or talk over your struggle.
> 
> ...


It's getting dull because you're dragging this way out of proportion and trying to get me to debate politics with you now. I literally don't care and as I stated initially, this thread was not about law and even if it was Canada and the US already have legal protection over this.

Once again you commit ad hominem attacks because I asked you to provide a government source for these supposed government rulings.

The user only said so while under the understanding being fat made her disabled and therefore mattered as it related to her. Suddenly when called out it wasn't the important part anymore.

The one inflammatory dork was before I posted anything. The user in question was harassing other users over imagined slights and then picking fights with everyone else after that other guy was gone. It's clear as day even here in this thread that you're defending a terrible, disruptive presence for no reason beyond looking good in front of everyone.


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> I know kids in and outside my family who know what gay means and who were taught it in school. It's no different from kids learning about black history (which is also being banned in the curriculum in Florida) or women's history. The eleven-year-old in my household knows about gay couples and he grew in a conservative household before he came here.
> 
> I can see not teaching sex education geared towards gay students to young children, but teaching kids about the gay rights movement, gay historical figures, and that gay people basically exist is appropriate.



It's vital to keep in mind that since LGBTQ people do not just magically emerge from a vacuum, some children are LGBTQ, while others have LGBTQ family members, neighbors, friends, acquaintances, or caretakers.

If children are old enough to call each other slurs on the playground, they are absolutely old enough to know that other types of people exist and are worthy of dignity, rights, and respect. If children are old enough to recognize their own feelings and preferences---including feeling the same as or different from others--then they are old enough to be given language to express those feelings.

Being LGBTQ is no more "adult," prurient, or obscene than being cishet.

Children don't know the word "heterosexual," but nobody thinks that exposing them to fairy tales where princes woo princesses or Disney movies where the opposite-sex leads eventually pair up is "groooooooooming" or exposing them prematurely to the "het lifestyle."

Also, "sex education" can be as simple and straightforward as teaching children the names of their body parts and teaching them about consent---which is why, incidentally, age-appropriate sex education is proven to increase children's safety and health. Because they have no actual leg to stand on, bigots muddy the waters by insinuating that preschoolers are being taught the Kama Sutra.

As for History and Social Studies, children should learn about the events, movements, "big" people, everyday people, and laws that have made our world what it is today, with the essential key of learning what mistakes not to repeat, and the additional bonus of finding positive role models who inspire them. They're going to live in a world populated with a wide variety of people, so they need to learn about those people and be able to walk in their shoes.

Finally, I'm certainly a fan of diplomacy and civility, but thinking that a) bigots and zealots won't hurt us if we just keep our heads down and b) we invite (and therefore deserve) bigotry and abuse by being too "annoying" or "uncivil" is dangerously wrong, both morally and factually. It blames the battered spouse for "triggering"or "upsetting" their abuser, who is assumed to be a "reasonable" person who isn't wedded to being abusive.

I'd like for us to be able to stop talking about race, sexuality, gender, disability, and the like, but the onus should be on bigots and reactionaries to stop talking about them _negatively _first! Also, since many people still suffer in countless ways as a result of prejudice, discrimination, and bias, simply refusing to discuss these issues won't make them magically go away; it'll only make the victims of injustice feel alienated, hopeless, and invisible.


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## Hollowsong (Sep 26, 2022)

*not sure if my vote was accurate*


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## Zenoth (Sep 26, 2022)

Miles Marsalis said:


> And last time I checked, QUILTBAG wasn't a slur.


Again you continue to use a phrase you were told my a memeber of the LGBT community told you they found off putting in your replies to that person.
Think of it this way, if someone used a word / phrase towards you, that you told them you found off putting, or offensive, and they continued to use that while communicating with you,
how would you take it.  

I don't care if you a, a straight person, finds the term 'quiltbag' to be harmless, not everyone in the LGBT does, so when someone lets you know 'hey that comes across as a slur", maybe don't use that term when talking at that person, it's called courtesy.  IF others don't mind it, right on toss it around with them.


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## Green_Brick (Sep 26, 2022)

Can someone explain to me why there was so much vitriol towards the furry community? I never fully understood that. It just always seemed like that there was so much hate geared towards them.


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## LunaGryph (Sep 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> When I first started mascotting as a young person, my only knowledge of the furry fandom was based on That One Episode of CSI, and I didn't even know there was an organized mascotting community until later. Everything I knew I had either learned from personal experience or from other mascots at various gigs.
> 
> When I got my first fursuit, I just wanted an excuse to mascot outside of formal gigs and not always have to borrow the costume to do it. I didn't even know what a "fursuit" was!
> 
> ...


I never knew about the fandom, and I had somehow stumbled on to it when I was younger, and knew of its existence since then. I also never watched that CSI episode, but have read that Vanity Fair article. TBH, I've always wanted to be a mascot though, but since I had never gotten that chance and may likely not get it at this rate, I find fursuiting as a way to have fun, an alternate way of mascotting, especially for those mascot wannabes, like me, and a way to express myself in ways I couldn't before.

Guess tons of these aggressive interactions could've been avoided if fursuiters had spoken, especially if "breaking the magic" thing wasn't such a big deal. It also makes public fursuiting a bit easier, since talking would be allowed, regardless of jaw type. Bet that most of the older generations of fursuiters still uphold this today. What did you do with that shy and passive handler after that? Were they experienced or inexperienced? Did you suffer any injuries from those incidents?

How did you built-up the comfort of dressing-up in front of people? Do you do it yourself or does someone else help you do that? Why does letting people to get to know you out of suit translates to getting invited to events in suit? What's more important to you, maintaining a secret identity or getting to know people?

Where have you public fursuited before? What do you mean by "take the L"? What had happened after you introduced yourself to the organizer of your local children's event?

TBH, never seen "The Good Place" before.

So that time when that jerk showed-up, did you have a handler or were you going solo at that time? What was his goal of asking you all those questions? How did you responded to it? Would've been a funny story if you did, but how would you do that?

What's your favorite part about the fandom? How did you find out about public fursuiting? When you do so, do you feel the responsibility of representing the fandom and/or maintaining (or improving) its image? Have you consulted any guides on public fursuiting before doing it? 
How did you get your fursuit? Do you own any others than the dino you've mentioned? Mind if I see how your fursuit looks like?


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 26, 2022)

Uhm...
I'm going to have to set aside some time to read this.  Wow.


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## PercyD (Sep 26, 2022)

Green_Brick said:


> Can someone explain to me why there was so much vitriol towards the furry community? I never fully understood that. It just always seemed like that there was so much hate geared towards them.


Welcome fellow Krita user-
The furry community has a lot of neurodivergent, socially inept folks, lol. Not gonna split any hairs.
Mainstream sees it as "weird" and "cringe". Insecure people tend to punch down on these things to make themselves feel better.


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## PercyD (Sep 26, 2022)

Nexus Cabler said:


> So, you don't like the terminology people are using argue there are potential hateful intentions behind it? That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Perhaps there are a few misunderstandings people have and maybe they could have worded their comments better, but fascism is a hell of a thing to imply.


Never saw this in all the what what-

I haven't called any specific person here a fascist. What I am saying is that actual fascists co-op language from our movements to hijack spaces. Its very common. If you are interested, I have a video essay on this topic.


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## AniwayasSong (Sep 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> It's vital to keep in mind that since LGBTQ people do not just magically emerge from a vacuum, some children are LGBTQ, while others have LGBTQ family members, neighbors, friends, acquaintances, or caretakers.
> 
> If children are old enough to call each other slurs on the playground, they are absolutely old enough to know that other types of people exist and are worthy of dignity, rights, and respect. If children are old enough to recognize their own feelings and preferences---including feeling the same as or different from others--then they are old enough to be given language to express those feelings.
> 
> ...


I have zero faith in our Public Schools (System) teaching minors anything pertaining to sexuality, including 'Gender Identification.'
Our Public Schools have proven an utter failure at teaching Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic. They can't handle the 'Big Three' they certainly aren't qualified to teach anything else.
I'm not disregarding the importance of sexuality or all things deviant from the standard heterosexual relationships most of the world embraces.  I believe knowledge is power, and it matters.
Exposing young, immature, impressionable minds to something that falls squarely into the 'Minority percentage' of behavior/perspective is promoting what makes this 'Left/Liberal/WOKE' agenda so utterly reprehensible to the vast majority of free thinking people, worldwide.

You do not demand respect/appreciation.

You earn it.

Leave children out of this theater.  They've got more than enough on their shoulders already.

That's my .02 on it, and I've fought against the 'Establishment' all my g-damned life.


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## Keket (Sep 26, 2022)

Hmm. I am not sure. I don't hear any active furry "hate". Actually, someone who lives up the road from me is a furry (fursuiter at that), we have only ever talked in passing, and I am not even sure that they know I am a part of the fandom per se. They must have their assumptions, as they wanted to commission my art - and initially they were surprised that I made anthro art at all. After that little discovery well... naturally they have heavy, heavy suspicions that I am in some way involved with the furry fandom lol. It's never been an actual topic in any of our conversations though. 

I feel like the fact that it isn't something I openly talk about makes it harder for me to discern if it is accepted. I live in a liberal area, so a lot of things are accepted around here that may be frowned upon elsewhere. I think every place has its jerks, and I could think of a few people even within my friend group that would crack some jokes if they found out. Even so, we'd still be able to be good friends, and it is not something they would drop me for.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Sep 26, 2022)

As an aside on the subject of QUILTBAG issues, including specifically the notion that it refers to a small portion of the population so shouldn't need to be mentioned in schools:
Wikipedia mentions one poll concluding the US LGBT population is about 7%. I've previously seen the rough estimate of 10% floating around in a lot of places. Compare this to US racial demographics: just short of 19% Hispanic/Latinx, about 12% Black/African American, just under 6% Asian, less than 1% Native American/Alaska Native; if you were to combine that with Hawaiian/Pacific Islander Native you'd still only just pass the 1% mark. (I mention the combination because they have in common that they are from peoples that natively occupied land now claimed as US soil.) Now, I'm not saying QUILTBAG identity is equivalent to race. What I _am_ saying is that the size of a population being used to justify brushing threats and hardships faced by that population under the rug is hella shitty. And that arguing for doing so for one population but not another, when the two are of similar size, is hypocritical.

Obviously, the answer isn't to brush racism under the rug. That goes without saying, and I should think no one here thinks differently on that point.

But it should also be a given that a gay teacher shouldn't face reprimand (or lose their job) because they mention their marriage _when asked by students_. And, uh... I have bad news for you on that front. Whether the LGBT population is 5% or 10% or somewhere in between, all but the very smallest classrooms will have a minimum of one student falling under that umbrella, statistically speaking. Even if we accept for the sake of argument the premise that no one develops a queer identity as young as elementary school, it's highly unlikely that no one in the class has an LGBT parent, cousin, sibling, or beloved uncle (etc). What message is being sent to them when books with QUILTBAG characters are pulled from school libraries, or non-cishet teachers are replaced with more "acceptable" ones? Like... a small, vocal minority of parents are putting a whole lot of effort in making sure those kids face trauma, just so their own precious offspring isn't exposed to the idea that sometimes boys like boys or girls like girls (which, realistically, they're going to learn anyway).

A gay or trans* kid isn't going to not be gay or trans* just because they're not exposed to the idea. Not having the word for what you're feeling is not the same as not feeling it. And feeling something you don't have the words to articulate can in itself cause a lot of distress. 

And, well, this all does tie back into furries. Like it or not, hostile attitudes towards QUILTBAGs contribute to hostile attitudes towards furries. They don't line up 1:1, but as I recall we've had at least a couple young members here on the forums that have mentioned their parents very clearly connecting the two and using homophobic slurs about furries as a whole. While it's not healthy for _other_ reasons to allow the idea that furries are all gay (men) to stand unchallenged, trying to soften people who connect the two up to the idea of furries by saying "oh, no, not all furries are gay," is just throwing the QUILTBAG (and especially QUILTBAG furries) community under the bus. Some of the language being thrown around in hostility to furries is the same language used to attack QUILTBAG people ("groomer" etc). Standing up for the QUILTBAG community and showing solidarity is, honestly, in the best (self)interest of even cishet furries, for this reason.

It's not as though anthropomorphism in itself is what offends people who have a chip on their shoulder about furries. You ever seen anyone refuse to go to a football game because one of the teams had an animal mascot? No one is going to boycott Kellogg's because Tony the Tiger is the face of Frosties. Furries are not a significant enough target group to justify the Orangina commercials, yet those commercials (plural!) were produced. 

I will stand by what I have said so many times, that in most of the world at large people don't actually care as much as furries often seem to think they do. All day every day. But that doesn't mean we can't _also_ look at how the people who do have a stick up their ass justify slinging so much mud at a harmless hobby. And much of that often comes down to either conformism ("weird" being equated to "undesirable") or, frankly, queerphobia. Both of which are attitudes that cause a ton of harm outside of the narrow scope of people's relationship to furry fandom.


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## Smityyyy (Sep 26, 2022)

AniwayasSong said:


> I have zero faith in our Public Schools (System) teaching minors anything pertaining to sexuality, including 'Gender Identification.'
> Our Public Schools have proven an utter failure at teaching Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic. They can't handle the 'Big Three' they certainly aren't qualified to teach anything else.
> I'm not disregarding the importance of sexuality or all things deviant from the standard heterosexual relationships most of the world embraces.  I believe knowledge is power, and it matters.
> Exposing young, immature, impressionable minds to something that falls squarely into the 'Minority percentage' of behavior/perspective is promoting what makes this 'Left/Liberal/WOKE' agenda so utterly reprehensible to the vast majority of free thinking people, worldwide.
> ...




Perhaps public schools would be able to offer better quality education if they were actually funded properly… or if educators were paid fair wages. Unfortunately, neither of those are the case. The United States education system is a joke… and part of that has to do with our provably ineffective and uneven funding structure.

But instead of addressing lack of resource distribution, unfair pay chasing out higher-quality educators, and overall yearly budget cuts — people just shrug and say they don’t trust the schools to do stuff. 

Ok, so, let’s invest into our schools so that we _can _trust them instead of hand-waiving and using their poor performance as a reason to keep people in the dark about the world around them.


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## Bambi (Sep 26, 2022)

Not going to lie on this, but North Carolina has been an interesting state on and off.

Our state has grown over the past few years and all of the new development taking place is making NC just a little bit faster of a state then it used to be. Discrimination against furries exists, but only on the basis that it's another element of counter-culture judging you. However I've never ran into outright, or outward judgment; I am also not introducing myself as a furry outright, since other things take precedent.

Like going out, gardening, and hitting the beach sometimes. <3 Yeee


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## Minerva_Minx (Sep 26, 2022)

People are mostly awful, selfish, inconsiderate beings that in a group co form to the dumbest denominator and succumb to fear and hostility.  Reminds me of MiB when K is telling J about knowing of aliens and protecting them.

By and large, no one cares about furries.  They do care about the dynamic we represent: educated professionals with open acceptance.  If you are going to sell fear, you need a demographic.  Well, we're not statistically significant so being anti-furry isn't going to start a riot or major rebuttal.  We do associate with QUILTBAG and openly accept.  We do accept minorities.  So, politicians and media use this because we can represent something larger to fear.

We are also a majority in the IT world.  So most people will look the other way if say, Geek Squad, decides they need a furry day.  Let face it, population hates the Help Desk but they won't say it publicly because they need the support.

Again, I used this before, but I was ridiculed at my office for being a furry until they found out I was their Engineer.


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

"Public schools are bad, so let's give up, and let's _definitely_ not teach about those topics I just-so-happen to be ideologically opposed to" plays very neatly into the long-game strategy of a clique that wants to horde education and its myriad benefits for the powerful while keeping the general public ignorant, under-skilled, dependent, and subservient. Anyone who repeats that talking point is either in on the scam or has been taken in by the scam.



AniwayasSong said:


> Exposing young, immature, impressionable minds to something that falls squarely into the 'Minority percentage' of behavior/perspective is promoting what makes this 'Left/Liberal/WOKE' agenda so utterly reprehensible to the vast majority of free thinking people, worldwide.



[Citation needed.]

Denying factual information and limiting productive discussion of issues pertinent to a not-insignificant portion of the society is not in the true spirit of freethought or democracy. Enacting policies and practices that actively exclude and disenfranchise some people just so that others can continue to enjoy the status quo that benefits them is not democratic, just, or fair. Stirring up "culture wars" over trivial, benign, or especially, totally-nonexistent issues and turning people (including kids) into political footballs in the process in a cynical bid for votes, wealth, and attention is what's reprehensible. (Not to mention, by the numbers, the parts of the country who've got themselves royally riled up about "wokeness" generally have lower populations and less economic power than the perceived "woke" regions of the country, so if we follow the logic of "Majority Rules," then California and New York should logically get to call the tune.)

Nobody's teaching CRT, pole-dancing, anal sex, or the finer points of gender transition to elementary schoolers. Nobody's furnishing school bathrooms with litter boxes for the "furry-identified" students. All of that crap has been intentionally fabricated by a collection of politicians, pundits, and special interest groups who know how to rile up their base for their own personal gain.

So, the people who genuinely won't leave children alone overwhelmingly aren't "the wokes;" they're the "anti-woke" culture warriors.

As for respect: admiration, deference, or awe should certainly have to be earned, but basic decency, civility, and respect should be afforded to all people unless they've done something to lose it--and even then, people are still worthy of their basic rights and dignity as beings. Even the most annoying pink-haired omnisexual polygender teapotkin with headmates is deserving of their rights and dignity as a being, and such things should never be contingent on whether or not they're "likable" or "pleasant."



Minerva_Minx said:


> By and large, no one cares about furries. They do care about the dynamic we represent: educated professionals with open acceptance. If you are going to sell fear, you need a demographic. Well, we're not statistically significant so being anti-furry isn't going to start a riot or major rebuttal. We do associate with QUILTBAG and openly accept. We do accept minorities. So, politicians and media use this because we can represent something larger to fear.
> 
> We are also a majority in the IT world. So most people will look the other way if say, Geek Squad, decides they need a furry day. Let face it, population hates the Help Desk but they won't say it publicly because they need the support.



Furries have become a dogwhistle (one among many!) to be sure. Few people care all that much about furries, but they do often care about the things furries symbolically represent--and so, they may either laud _or_ attack furries in order to gesture or allude to those other things.


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## The_Happiest_Husky (Sep 26, 2022)

Zenoth said:


> Again you continue to use a phrase you were told my a memeber of the LGBT community told you they found off putting in your replies to that person.
> Think of it this way, if someone used a word / phrase towards you, that you told them you found off putting, or offensive, and they continued to use that while communicating with you,
> how would you take it.
> 
> I don't care if you a, a straight person, finds the term 'quiltbag' to be harmless, not everyone in the LGBT does, so when someone lets you know 'hey that comes across as a slur", maybe don't use that term when talking at that person, it's called courtesy.  IF others don't mind it, right on toss it around with them.


No one cares, QUILTBAG is fine. Find something else to get offended about, there's plenty of actually valid things out there


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

LunaGryph said:


> What did you do with that shy and passive handler after that? Were they experienced or inexperienced? Did you suffer any injuries from those incidents?



They were extremely apologetic! They didn't mean any harm, and I didn't blame them for freezing in a new and overwhelming situation for them.

I've never been seriously injured, no. I'm fortunately very well-padded!

Re: Suiting up, I have needed help to get into some mascot costumes and other friends' fursuits. Knock on wood, I currently have only minimal troubles getting into my current fursuit.

"Take the L" means to take the loss--meaning, to concede defeat in a given situation.

When I introduced myself to the organizer of that event I mentioned, they were very friendly and pleasant, and I just hope I made a good-enough impression that they'd be open to perhaps having me suit alongside their characters someday.



LunaGryph said:


> So that time when that jerk showed-up, did you have a handler or were you going solo at that time? What was his goal of asking you all those questions? How did you responded to it? Would've been a funny story if you did, but how would you do that?



I was solo-ing at a downtown outdoor art festival.

I'm honestly not sure what his goal was, to the point where I've asked my friends or family what they think his deal was!  If I had to guess, I think he was trying to assess whether I might have been an OFFICIAL character employed by the city for the event, or if I was a lowly busker ::::haughty sniff::: who was just performing for money or a creepy weirdo who might have _ulterior motives_. When talking to his kids, he used the "Don't interact with the homeless person" tone of voice.

So, he might've thought I was going to try to extract money out of him for a photo, like the people in Times Square who buy cheap costumes of copyrighted characters on Wish and then accost people for photos. I surely don't know!

It was in a wealthier area of town, and people in such areas can sometimes be, ah, finicky and prickly, shall we say.



LunaGryph said:


> What's your favorite part about the fandom? How did you find out about public fursuiting? When you do so, do you feel the responsibility of representing the fandom and/or maintaining (or improving) its image? Have you consulted any guides on public fursuiting before doing it?
> How did you get your fursuit? Do you own any others than the dino you've mentioned? Mind if I see how your fursuit looks like?



I like the creativity, the inclusiveness, and the overall kindness of the community.

I feel a big responsibility to represent the fandom positively and accurately and to help improve its general image, yes! I see myself as an ambassador for the fandom.

I got the fursuit when a friend of mine with multiple suits got the suit and realized it didn't fit properly.

I have an older suit of Stitch from Lilo and Stitch that is fairly worn and a bit of a hassle to wear. That was my first fursuit!

Photo of me by Chatah Spots:


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## Hollowsong (Sep 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> Even the most annoying pink-haired omnisexual polygender teapotkin with headmates is deserving of their rights and dignity as a being, and such things should never be contingent on whether or not they're "likable" or "pleasant."


Do you have a problem with systems?


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

Hollowsong said:


> Do you have a problem with systems?


Not at all (especially since I think _all_ people are technically systems). I'm just reciting the bargain-bin typical stereotype of the Left/queer people/"woke people" as conceived by the "anti-SJW/anti-woke" crowd. Point remains, it doesn't matter how "weird," "strange," or "annoying" you might find someone or their identities; they're still as deserving of rights and basic dignity as someone who's as straight as a Norman Rockwell painting.


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## TyraWadman (Sep 26, 2022)

_Wow. 
You really went the extra Miles on that one. _

8D


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## Punji (Sep 26, 2022)

Just as a general thing, if you don't have the decency to address me directly when discussing my arguments, just don't at all. Be an adult for once in your life.



Miles Marsalis said:


> *Posts twice to create the illusion of length and scope when everything easily fits in a single post*


1-5 are not government sources. A government source ends in ".gov." News media sites such as CNN are not government sources. Political organizations are not government sources. The only things you included here are previously enacted laws which are supposedly no longer valid and therefore are irrelevant to your argument.

6/7: Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the summary for the proposed rule says "the Department proposes to *revise *its Section 1557 regulation in order to better comply with the mandates of Congress, address legal concerns, relieve billions of dollars in undue regulatory burdens, further substantive compliance, reduce confusion, and clarify the scope of Section 1557 in *keeping with pre-existing civil rights statutes and regulations* prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, colour, national origin, sex, age, and disability."

This sounds completely fine to me. Where's this supposed repeal? It sounds like they're just trying to trim the fat, not revoke the protection of anyone.

8: The first document mentions the following: "In response to these comments, we are not finalizing the proposal to require explicit non-discrimination requirements in the CoPs and we are instead *deferring to the non-discrimination requirements of Section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act.*" Literally not an issue.

9: Not even going to bother to read this one, but it seems like yet another case of "my rights are more important that yours." Religious freedom is just as important as sexual freedom. Neither should overrule the other.

10: Not even going to read the actual sources for this one either, they're appreciated but not necessary here. Disability is not related to sexual orientation. It's genuinely offensive to both the disabled and the LGBT to say one is likely to be the other. It diminishes the existing identity of disabled individuals as significant on their own right and implies LGBT people are "disabled."

11/12: Once again this new proposed rule does nothing of the sort. As the document states, "in summary, the proposed rule would: Require grantees to comply with applicable nondiscrimination provisions passed by Congress and signed into law. Provide that HHS complies with applicable Supreme Court decisions in administering its grant programs."

Further: "In the proposed rule, HHS would repromulgate most of the provisions of the 2016 rulemaking verbatim. HHS would revise two provisions of the 2016 rulemaking to require grantees to comply with applicable nondiscrimination provisions passed by Congress and signed into law, including legislation ensuring the protection of religious liberty, and to provide that HHS complies with all applicable Supreme Court decisions in administering its grant programs."

"HHS is committed to fully enforcing the civil rights laws passed by Congress. The proposed rule would better align its grants regulations with federal statutes, eliminating regulatory burden, including burden on the free exercise of religion. HHS is affirming that it will comply with all applicable Supreme Court decisions in administering its grants programs."

Once again, _at best_ this is an argument of "my rights are more important that your rights." Ironically once again the entire cause of this thread's downfall.

13: And lastly once again while appreciated, citations are not required for this. Argument of "my rights are more important that your rights," *not* systemic discrimination.

It's abundantly clear you're just muddying the water with excess posts while not responding to anything you can't argue against. If you're just going to waste my time and not take these issues seriously, I'm just going to stop responding and report you for posting politics.

It helps no one to shout over who's rights are more important, as this thread has once again demonstrated. We can't progress in society if everyone is only clamouring for their own goals and devaluing the rights & freedoms and needs of others. Support each other and ourselves, *not *ourselves over each other.


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## PercyD (Sep 26, 2022)

Smityyyy said:


> Perhaps public schools would be able to offer better quality education if they were actually funded properly… or if educators were paid fair wages. Unfortunately, neither of those are the case. The United States education system is a joke… and part of that has to do with our provably ineffective and uneven funding structure.
> 
> But instead of addressing lack of resource distribution, unfair pay chasing out higher-quality educators, and overall yearly budget cuts — people just shrug and say they don’t trust the schools to do stuff.
> 
> Ok, so, let’s invest into our schools so that we _can _trust them instead of hand-waiving and using their poor performance as a reason to keep people in the dark about the world around them.


I have a strong theory that this is *part of the feature and not the flaw*-- basically, that the under funding of education is _purposeful_. 

As we've seen countless times, *a more educated population cannot be controlled or persuaded to vote against their own self interests. 
An under educated population can be more easily persuaded to accept the scapegoating of other people* (QUILTBAG, minorities, neurodivergent folks, the disabled). -- Which ties directly into what @quoting_mungo so wonderfully synthesized. 

*It all ties back into the furry community's interest in increasing acceptance and decreasing othering (i.e. fascism). *Not just for the QUILTBAG, minority, neurodivergent, and disabled furries, but for all of us. People who are educated are more likely to go through the process of considering the other. (More likely, not absolute. But you can at least  be more likely to recognize a shitty appeal to fear as a reason to hate someone).

By the by, people keep throwing the word fascist around. I'm using it in it's literal sense. I'm off work (for now), so heres that video btw:


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## Hollowsong (Sep 26, 2022)

It's come up a few times in this thread: what does quiltbag mean?


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## PercyD (Sep 26, 2022)

Hollowsong said:


> It's come up a few times in this thread: what does quiltbag mean?


Alternative acronym for LGBTQ+
QUILTBAG: Queer & Questioning, Unidentified, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay & Genderqueer

A lot of Queer folks use it since it's more approachable then LGBTQ+. People also remember it better. And it's fun.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Sep 26, 2022)

PercyD said:


> I gotta disagree with you here. Heres why.
> 
> My parents are civil rights activists. They had to fight, constantly.
> Before them, my grandparents. My grandfather faught in WWII. When he got back, his batillion had to crush a KluKlux Klan group trying to establish itself in NC. Til this day, the KKK isn't very established there. It wasnt "subtle". They literally ran a miltary campaign.
> ...


And here you demonstrate you have NO CLUE what "subtle" is. I would normally walk away from this, but clearing the air on this is _crucial_.

From dictionary.com:

*subtle;*
_adjective_, _sub·tler, sub·tlest._

thin, tenuous, or rarefied, as a fluid or an odor.
fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand:_ subtle irony._
delicate or faint and mysterious: _a subtle smile._
requiring mental acuteness, penetration, or discernment: _a subtle philosophy._
characterized by mental acuteness or penetration: _a subtle understanding._
cunning, wily, or crafty: _a subtle liar._
Notice something that isn't in the definition of 'subtle'?  Yeah, 'subtle' is not 'passive'.  Activists make this mistake _all the time_.  The idea that 'subtle' is about playing nice is _completely fabricated_.  "Subtle" and the refusal to play nice means backstabs, double-crosses, _espionage work_. Getting inside and destroying them from within.

I actually tried to do a search on "military raids on the KKK" to see if I could find the raid you spoke of, and though I didn't find that raid quickly enough, the first real hit I've gotten so far is one about a Purple Heart recipient infiltrating a KKK murder plot (2015, so not yours).  I won't link it here as I do not have full verification on how true the story truly is (it's on military.com, if anyone wants to try and prove whether it's real or not), but if it's even half true, THAT is "subtle" combat.

Let's go one further and put the definition for activism here, from the same site:

*activism;*
_noun_
the doctrine or practice of vigorous action or involvement as a means of achieving political or other goals, sometimes by demonstrations, protests, etc.
_Philosophy. _

a theory that the essence of reality is pure activity, especially spiritual activity, or process.
a theory that the relationship between the mind and the objects of perception depends upon the action of the mind.

Notice: "_sometimes_ by demonstrations, protests, etc." If you're looking for a "subtle" means of vigorous involvement to achieve political goals, well.... how many people go into a courtroom to hear the lawyers, exactly?

"Subtle" and "Activism" _are not mutually exclusive things._  Stop treating them as such.

P.S. Got some more detail on that battalion crushing the KKK group?  I'm trying to see if I can read up on it through a Google search.


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## Miles Marsalis (Sep 26, 2022)

TyraWadman said:


> Wow.
> You really went the extra Miles on that one.


You got some mileage out of that pun. 

Though seriously, I quoted the articles, for time's sake.



Punji said:


> Just as a general thing, if you don't have the decency to address me directly when discussing my arguments, just don't at all. Be an adult for once in your life.


I quoted, which should've notified you. And I used two posts because of the character limit, not to lengthen the post. Which I wouldn't have had to do you didn't try obfuscating and just read the article, which is even longer. 



Punji said:


> 1-5 are not government sources. A government source ends in ".gov." News media sites such as CNN are not government sources. Political organizations are not government sources. The only things you included here are previously enacted laws which are supposedly no longer valid and therefore are irrelevant to your argument.


First off, the links include policy and court documents alongside government site links, which serve as clear proof of policies put in place. (You also apparently missed the government links and the government memos.) The government is party in these courts and if you knew what you were talking, you'd know that the courts outline not just their policies, but the rationale behind them. 

Furthermore, the current administration has repealed most of these policies federally, but my point was the government actively pursued these policies relatively recently, debunking your point that QUILTBAG people are not systematically oppressed here. These policies were in effect just over two years ago, which is not a long time.

You're moving the goalposts and poorly at that.



Punji said:


> 6/7: Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the summary for the proposed rule says "the Department proposes to *revise *its Section 1557 regulation in order to better comply with the mandates of Congress, address legal concerns, relieve billions of dollars in undue regulatory burdens, further substantive compliance, reduce confusion, and clarify the scope of Section 1557 in *keeping with pre-existing civil rights statutes and regulations* prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, colour, national origin, sex, age, and disability."
> 
> This sounds completely fine to me. Where's this supposed repeal? It sounds like they're just trying to trim the fat, not revoke the protection of anyone.



I previously quoted for Point 6:
 "The Department of Health and Human Services proposed a rule that would *eliminate Obama-era regulations explicitly prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sex stereotyping — stereotypical notions of how those of a certain gender should look or act — and gender identity * by federally funded health providers, programs and insurers that must abide by Section 1557, the nondiscrimation provision of the Affordable Care Act."

 After that, there is:

"The move came after a preliminary court injunction put federal enforcement of the regulations on hold. In a press call explaining the proposal, the director of the HHS Office for Civil Rights, Roger Severino, said, “We’re going back to the plain meaning of those terms, which is based on biological sex.”

The transparent purpose of the rule was to discriminate against transgender and nonbinary people seeking healthcare or health insurance, using the pretext of using biological sex as a basis. The Obama-era regulations specifically included transgender and nonbinary people as parties that could not be discriminated against since prior regulations didn't include those groups. The Trump rule was intended to revert back to those prior rules on a discriminatory basis.

I also quoted:

""In that same proposed rule, HHS said it planned to *eliminate other Obama-era regulations that prohibited discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation* in certain Medicaid, private insurance and education programs. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, without these nondiscrimination prohibitions, health plan issuers could charge higher premiums or cancel or deny coverage to LGBTQ individuals, and Medicaid managed care programs could discriminate against LGBTQ beneficiaries in enrollment.""

It's worth noting that the Trump administration also wanted to eliminate protections that transgender, nonbinary, AND gay insurance policyholders had so their insurers would be free to discriminate against them and raise their premiums, so even if you wanted to die on the hill of "the government proposed this rule because they believe biological sex plays a role in whether someone should receive medical treatment or the terms of their insurance policies" (and to be clear, that is both erroneous and fucked up), that still doesn't make sense because ... why eliminate protections for those with minority sexual orientations as well?

Because you want to discriminate against QUILTBAG patients and policyholders.



Punji said:


> 8: The first document mentions the following: "In response to these comments, we are not finalizing the proposal to require explicit non-discrimination requirements in the CoPs and we are instead *deferring to the non-discrimination requirements of Section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act.*" Literally not an issue.



You missed a few things here, so I'll quote this again:

"HHS *dropped proposed requirements for hospitals to establish policies that prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender identity and sexual orientation* in order to participate in Medicare and Medicaid. Instead, the agency stated it would defer to the nondiscrimination requirements of Section 1557, which the administration now defines to exclude discrimination on the basis of gender identity."

As I previously mentioned, the Trump administration previously considered biological sex to be the legal basis of gender, regulations before the Obama era didn't include ironclad provisions preventing discrimination in hospitals against QUILTBAG patients, and the Trump administration wanted to roll back those Obama-era protections in favor of preexisting regulations that allowed for discrimination against those groups. I'd also ask what is rationale allow discrimination based on gender identity, but specifically sexual orientation as well?

You either don't understand this or are deliberately ignoring this.



Punji said:


> 9: Not even going to bother to read this one, but it seems like yet another case of "my rights are more important that yours." Religious freedom is just as important as sexual freedom. Neither should overrule the other.



"The HHS Office for Civil Rights — the part of the agency that enforces health care-related anti-discrimination laws — has taken steps to *shift the office’s emphasis from the protection of “equal access” for patients to the protection of “conscience and free exercise of religion” for providers.*"

Down here, most healthcare providers are private entities, so if private entities are allow to use religious beliefs as a shield to discriminate against QUILTBAG patients, it creates a situation where large swathes of population and communities will be denied access to vital healthcare. Healthcare is a necessary services and not everyone can go hunting around for a healthcare provider to see them, particular during emergencies or time-sensitive illnesses. 

Religious freedom doesn't give healthcare providers license to deny service to patients.



Punji said:


> 10: Not even going to read the actual sources for this one either, they're appreciated but not necessary here. Disability is not related to sexual orientation. It's genuinely offensive to both the disabled and the LGBT to say one is likely to be the other. It diminishes the existing identity of disabled individuals as significant on their own right and implies LGBT people are "disabled."



It doesn't and there are disabled people who also happen to be QUILTBAG ... like you. 

The question would allow the government to better serve disabled who are in QUILTBAG demographics such being transgender, gay, or nonbinary.


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## Miles Marsalis (Sep 26, 2022)

Punji said:


> 11/12: Once again this new proposed rule does nothing of the sort. As the document states, "in summary, the proposed rule would: Require grantees to comply with applicable nondiscrimination provisions passed by Congress and signed into law. Provide that HHS complies with applicable Supreme Court decisions in administering its grant programs."
> 
> Further: "In the proposed rule, HHS would repromulgate most of the provisions of the 2016 rulemaking verbatim. HHS would revise two provisions of the 2016 rulemaking to require grantees to comply with applicable nondiscrimination provisions passed by Congress and signed into law, including legislation ensuring the protection of religious liberty, and to provide that HHS complies with all applicable Supreme Court decisions in administering its grant programs."
> 
> ...



Answering the last point quoted here first, everything I quoted to you so far was either government policy or  a court case the government pushed meant to pursue a discriminatory agenda against QUILTBAG citizens.

When the government does that, it is perpetuating systemic discrimination.

It should be also noted that the government did this under the guise of protecting religious freedom, which is often used as a shield by anti-QUILTBAG bigots to justify that discrimination. Religion has a long history in this country of being used to justify discrimination and oppression of minorities, like how religion was used to justified slavery and segregation, but it is not a justifiable basis for denying people their rights.

Now:



Miles Marsalis said:


> 11. "HHS *announced a new proposed rule that would allow the agency to issue grants to organizations that deny services to LGBTQ people.* Specifically, the administration announced that it would immediately drop enforcement of — and will be seeking to roll back — Obama-era regulations that prohibited grant recipients from denying services on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity and religion. The change would cover the wide range of programs the agency funds, including those related to HIV and STD prevention, substance abuse treatment, youth homelessness, elder care and other areas of public health and education. It also applies to federally funded adoption and foster care agencies."



 I'll again reiterate something you missed; the Obama-regulations were signed in law to add protections for QUILTBAG that weren't in previous regulations. The Trump administration specifically rolled back the Obama administration rules to revert back to those preexisting regulations that didn't cover those groups. This applies to 12 as well too.

You claim you want to have a serious discussion about this, but then claim you don't want to talk politics after I disprove your claims. You also claim that I'm favoring one group over the other ... but both the QUILTBAG community and disabled people have their own struggles and I don't favor one over the other. 

You, on the other hand, seem intent on saying that queer folks aren't systemically oppressed when just two years ago, a swath of policies and cases were pursued by the government with that intended purpose. You also claim that almost no cares about people's gender identity or sexual orientation and that doing nothing will improve that situation. All of which is ridiculous. 

If you don't want to talk about this, no one is forcing you to. But if you do, actually know what you're talking about and don't behind weasel excuses. 

I know I definitely am not letting you spread falsehoods about the QUILTBAG community uncontested, come what may here. There are people here who deserve some pushback on their behalf.


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## Zenoth (Sep 26, 2022)

The_Happiest_Husky said:


> No one cares, QUILTBAG is fine. Find something else to get offended about, there's plenty of actually valid things out there


It's can't be "no one cares", if someone is bringing it up, and at least one other user has agreed it comes off like a slur.  Thanks for invalidating feelings...I guess.


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## Miles Marsalis (Sep 26, 2022)

Zenoth said:


> It's can't be "no one cares", if someone is bringing it up, and at least one other user has agreed it comes off like a slur.  Thanks for invalidating feelings...I guess.


I feel only you feel it is a slur. Regret basically admitted they never heard the term before even.


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

QUILTBAG is fine. I'd rather hear queer people and allies say QUILTBAG with love and respect in their hearts than hear another right-wing reactionary sniffingly say "LGBTQ Community" because they can't use the words they'd really like to say. 

Me, I'm keen on "Alphabet Mafia" myself.


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## Hollowsong (Sep 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> QUILTBAG is fine. I'd rather hear queer people and allies say QUILTBAG with love and respect in their hearts than hear another right-wing reactionary sniffingly say "LGBTQ Community" because they can't use the words they'd really like to say.
> 
> Me, I'm keen on "Alphabet Mafia" myself.


Alphabet Mafia~!


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## quoting_mungo (Sep 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> Me, I'm keen on "Alphabet Mafia" myself.


I find this amusing as “bokstavsbarn” (“letter children”) at least used to be used here as an umbrella term for children diagnosed with assorted neurodivergent conditions. Sometimes benevolently, sometimes with that dismissive-snort kind of air that you get from people who bitch about kids getting diagnoses instead of a walloping.


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

Oh, fascinating! I didn't know that.


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## quoting_mungo (Sep 26, 2022)

Troj said:


> Oh, fascinating! I didn't know that.


Oops! A “here” fell off my post. XD
I have no way of knowing whether similar terms have been used elsewhere. I’m referring specifically to how neurodivergence (and particularly conditions referred to by acronym) were talked about here (Sweden) at one point. I’m not sufficiently social to know if it’s still being used that way.


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## Troj (Sep 26, 2022)

I inferred that from the word itself. No worries!


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