# Site Status, What's Going On and an Apology



## Dragoneer (Dec 11, 2013)

Firstly, I'd like to start with an apology: we had not intended for the downtime last as long as it has. We'd hoped not to have any downtime at all, but were unable to avoid it. Long story short: we had an issue where queries were backing up and not being executed properly. This happened on a J-curve, and as more queries started backing up, the site slowed down, and more and more mounted into the backlog. The Tribble Effect. The issues kept multiplying, and lead to degraded  performance (as no doubt all of you have felt). This all came to a stand-still almost overnight, and we were unable to resolve the issue before it ramped up to the point that it did.

We fixed the source of the issue, and had put the site into read only mode under the hopes it would finish executing the backlog. It didn't. To resolve the issue, we're taking the above steps (new server) with upgraded services which should help.

We're trying to get this resolved ASAP and to have good news soon. Nobody likes downtime (myself included). I'm as much a user of the site as I am owner, and I know the frustration. All advertisers of the site, we will be compensating all ads with 10 days credit. 

Again, I'm sorry for the major inconvenience the read only has caused the community. I know "sorry" doesn't make the frustration any less so, but we are working to get this resolved. I really want to put this behind us so we can try to focus on moving on with the improvements we were trying to implement.


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## seaweed (Dec 11, 2013)

Do we have any ETA on the new server being up ?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 11, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Do we have any ETA on the new server being up ?


As fast as we are able. I don't have an accurate estimate at this time due to the data transfer. But keeping the site down more than we have to is something we want to avoid.


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## Aetius (Dec 11, 2013)

Finally, I can soon once again make journals for my BFFs.


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## TheRedRaptor (Dec 11, 2013)

How many servers does that make now?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 11, 2013)

TheRedRaptor said:


> How many servers does that make now?


It's not the server that's the issue. We're just moving it to another of the servers and upgrading it while we move to try to make things go faster.


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## Tailmon1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Hum the data transfer must be through a soda straw to take this long.


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## Mazz (Dec 11, 2013)

Tailmon1 said:


> Hum the data transfer must be through a soda straw to take this long.


Yes because snide comments do any good at making the process faster. 
--

Woot, hope you guys get the site back up soon. I'm having FA withdrawals lol.


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## thoron (Dec 11, 2013)

Since the update a few hours back said the site is at 53% migration where is it at now? Would at least allow us to at least gauge when it will be done.


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## Stargazer Bleu (Dec 11, 2013)

Would having the site completely offline help it more or not enough to make a difference?
Then again might get complaints that its not in read only mode if it was offline.


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## Tailmon1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Mazz said:


> Yes because snide comments do any good at making the process faster.
> --
> 
> Woot, hope you guys get the site back up soon. I'm having FA withdrawals lol.



It's not a snide comment its a simplistic view of the situation. Data transfer is affected by the
way its transfered. This is the view. If you have a bucket of water and move it from one bucket to 
the other with a small straw it takes longer than a large hose. This can be a large reason why its 
possibly taking so long. 

None of us know that the transfer program or the medium being used or the process they decided on.
The reality is that its taking a long time and people are upset. I'm not worried it will get done when 
its done.


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## benanderson (Dec 11, 2013)

"The queries weren't being processed correctly" is 100% *bull*.

Database queries do NOT work that way. If there is an error in a database query then _the text parser picks up on this before starting the process and flags an error._ If there were errors in database queries then _it is because you have written them poorly._ If there was an error then people _would've been seeing error pages._

No one has reported error pages - therefore the queries were being *executed correctly.*

It was a memory utilisation issue and is was obvious from the word GO - this is why queries would be going slow because the system was low on available memory and having to use scratch space. You need to dig into your MySQL and Apache/NGinX (depending on what you use) configuration and alter the amount of memory used by each process, thread, session etc. because by default, each system uses quite a large chunk of RAM, and that RAM is locked for a very long time even after the user has disconnected their session because of the large default timeout period.

So actually give me a simple, straight answer here. I work with large enterprise systems and I know problems can creep out of the woodwork at any given time that can cause large outages, *BUT*:
1) You state that queries were executing improperly when the website was still perfectly functional;
2) You state that there was a backlog of queries BECAUSE they were being executed improperly and;
3) You also state that you are transferring to a new server because that will fix everything (????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)

1 is bull because everything was working. 2 is also bull because its quicker for a database engine to reject the query string compared to a parse and execute and broken queries throw an exception, stop the process and do not submit new queries and 3 is just confusing and pointless when _just restarting the server and tweaking the configuration would've fixed everything._

Actually give me a straight answer here instead of fobbing us all off with pseudo-techno-babble, because form a background in enterprise IT what you have said has made zero sense to me.


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## Kitari (Dec 11, 2013)

So since you're performing the update at the same time, does this throw the new system into that weird way of posting journals and such?

ie) person makes post; post is then processed in a large batch

Leading to the problem of timed auctions and streams not being seen a timely manner.

Also, where would we go to get updates on what you plan on implementing in the system, in which order, and when? Im still waiting for filters and folders so that what I consider spam is routed properly... which btw is not YCHs or Raffles...


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## DarrylWolf (Dec 11, 2013)

No, the site isn't coming back any time soon. In the meantime, we can all listen to 80's dance music, with music videos that must have made MTV big in the 1980's. Dead or Alive, Information Society, New Order, Men Without Hats, Kim Wilde, Devo, et al. will make the time spent waiting bearable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEVqFB4WUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPuXvpkOLmM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3j2NYZ8FKs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9mwELXPGbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x9mfgUsIis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpYNwFGaMik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjPau5QYtYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mhaPdURg7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_rhnHpRSXQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzdHxqwTO-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaZuN0qRP14

And if that isn't enough, here's David Bowie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4d7Wp9kKjA

Just shout if you want more '80s music.


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## thoron (Dec 11, 2013)

DarrylWolf said:


> No, the site isn't coming back any time soon. In the meantime, we can all listen to 80's dance music, with music videos that must have made MTV big in the 1980's. Dead or Alive, Information Society, New Order, Men Without Hats, Kim Wilde, Devo, et al. will make the time spent waiting bearable.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEVqFB4WUo
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPuXvpkOLmM
> ...



I'm all for this. *Starts dancing to the awesome 80's music*


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## robbo (Dec 11, 2013)

I suspect you're not going to get much support, forum snark and furry rage being what they are, but for whatever it's worth, I do appreciate this post from you. Some accountability for this situation needs to be taken, and it sounds like that's what you're trying to do. Like most everyone else, I just want this site to work properly, and I just want you and the rest of the staff to do what it's going to take to get it there. It has certainly been frustrating dealing with the intermittent slowdown issues since the initial server transfers back in September, I think it was, so I really am hoping that this process will set things right. Thanks again for the post.


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## GamerD (Dec 11, 2013)

Well as long as you can get it done. Im not going to worry or do something stupid.


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## Stratelier (Dec 11, 2013)

Tailmon1 said:


> Hum the data transfer must be through a soda straw to take this long.



No, it's like trying to drain the Pacific Ocean.  Through a soda straw.



DarrylWolf said:


> Just shout if you want more '80s music.


What about 90's music?


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## chicobo329 (Dec 11, 2013)

benanderson said:


> So actually give me a simple, straight answer here. I work with large enterprise systems and I know problems can creep out of the woodwork at any given time that can cause large outages, *BUT*:
> 1) You state that queries were executing improperly when the website was still perfectly functional;
> 2) You state that there was a backlog of queries BECAUSE they were being executed improperly and;
> 3) You also state that you are transferring to a new server because that will fix everything (????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)
> ...



I want to call attention to benanderson's post here, I feel it needs more attention because he has the background and know-how about the technical problems that most of the staff here hasn't been forthright about. I've seen a few people that are qualified in coding and databases offering advice to the situation, I am wondering if Yak is abreast of these suggestions (seeing as he appears to handle the coding of the site itself) and if he might take on those suggestions. 

A straight answer to Ben's three questions from Yak himself would also be real cool.


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## StevenRoy (Dec 11, 2013)

benanderson said:


> 1) You state that queries were executing improperly when the website was still perfectly functional;
> 2) You state that there was a backlog of queries BECAUSE they were being executed improperly and;
> 3) You also state that you are transferring to a new server because that will fix everything



I assume 1 is an oversimplification because Mr. 'Neer here probably wouldn't expect everyone here to understand phrases like "flushing massive backlogs of pending SQL database update transactions in InnoDB". You can't expect every furry on the FA forums to have a "background in enterprise IT"; Most of us would see a phrase like "flushing massive logs" and then start snickering too much to read the rest of the paragraph. (Heck, some folks here have trouble spelling the word "from"!)

And who's claiming that switching servers will "fix everything"? All Neer said was "should help". As long as FA can come back online relatively soon, "should help" should be good enough for now.

(Yes, we all know it'll take more than a server change and SQL software upgrades to absolutely "fix everything". That would take months, with several teams of coders and technicians and a few exorcists! Does FA currently have that kind of budget? ...Hmm. I actually wonder that now.)



> Actually give me a straight answer here instead of fobbing us all off with pseudo-techno-babble, because *form* a background in enterprise IT what you have said has made zero sense to me.



I understood it well enough, and I've been unemployed for over ten years. You probably need to think about that...

For what it's worth, Neer, I appreciate the update. Thanks for that.


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## thoron (Dec 11, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> What about 90's music?



Oh god, somehow its so perfect.


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## chicobo329 (Dec 11, 2013)

StevenRoy said:


> I assume 1 is an oversimplification because Mr. 'Neer here probably wouldn't expect everyone here to understand phrases like "flushing massive backlogs of pending SQL database update transactions in InnoDB". You can't expect every furry on the FA forums to have a "background in enterprise IT"; Most of us would see a phrase like "flushing massive logs" and then start snickering too much to read the rest of the paragraph. (Heck, some folks here have trouble spelling the word "from"!)
> 
> And who's claiming that switching servers will "fix everything"? All Neer said was "should help". As long as FA can come back online relatively soon, "should help" should be good enough for now.
> 
> ...



There's no need to pounce on benanderson like that. Neer is indeed not the site's coder, Yak is so it'd be understandable if he didn't articulate the site's problems accurately. But Yak has spoken little about the site's issues and it's probably that benanderson's post is more directed to the site's coders than Neer himself. Technical problems have marred the site on a semi-regular basis, it's definitely worth shedding light on them - therefore straight answers from the site's technical staff would be most appreciated. 

FA's budget may not be large, but there are some fixes out there that can be done with minimal or no cost at all, much as was suggested. It doesn't really cost much to alter configs and it certainly doesn't use up a lot of time to restart a server and change a few settings, as opposed to a whole server migration.


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## Mazz (Dec 11, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> What about 90's music?



It's been awhile since I've seen a place be rick rolled.... 
Hahaha thank you


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## StevenRoy (Dec 11, 2013)

chicobo329 said:


> There's no need to pounce on Neer like that.


Fixed it for you.

Seriously though, sorry if my response seemed like "pouncing"; I simply felt there were some flawed points that needed addressing.



> Neer is indeed not the site's coder, Yak is so it'd be understandable if he didn't articulate the site's problems accurately. But Yak has spoken little about the site's issues and it's probably that benanderson's post is more directed to the site's coders than Neer himself. Technical problems have marred the site on a semi-regular basis, it's definitely worth shedding light on them - therefore straight answers from the site's technical staff would be most appreciated.
> 
> FA's budget may not be large, but there are some fixes out there that can be done with minimal or no cost at all, much as was suggested. It doesn't really cost much to alter configs and it certainly doesn't use up a lot of time to restart a server and change a few settings, as opposed to a whole server migration.


This I agree with fully.


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## nuzzcat (Dec 11, 2013)

Thank you for speaking on this issue.  I feel bad for the artists who use this site as a primary means to get customers so they can pay their bills.  But stuff happens.  Have you thought about using memcached on some of the common queries?  I noticed that on the page stats, when I hit f5 to refresh, the stats at the bottom of the page indicate that the SQL queries are being run in the same amount of time whether its the first time I've been to the page in awhile or not.  So things like front page, User profile pages, PMs, comment pages, etc, could easily be adapted to use memcached or another caching provider, greatly reducing the database load.

PM me if you'd like any help with that!


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## Stratelier (Dec 11, 2013)

We can't rule out what kinds of caching functions the FA codebase may or may not have already - we simply don't know.


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## chicobo329 (Dec 11, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> We can't rule out what kinds of caching functions the FA codebase may or may not have already - we simply don't know.



That should be another thing that deserves an answer from the coders. How exactly does it work? No harm in disclosing this so that others may suggest on improvements.


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## StevenRoy (Dec 11, 2013)

Cue the mob chanting "Open source! Open source! Open source! Open source!"

...Too soon?


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## Winterbeast (Dec 12, 2013)

what I would like to see is constant updates, instead of one post at noon, a flurry of posts. when something is done and your on to the next step, drop us a line and tell if you can how many steps are left... if you would, please...


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

To quote the admin notice:


> The processing rate of the backlogged data made it clear that migrating to a new server would be a faster thing to do.


So instead of fixing it properly, just throw more hardware at it. This basically means that it'll eventually break AGAIN with the same issues. I have seen this happen MANY TIMES on this website.



StevenRoy said:


> flushing massive backlogs of pending SQL database update transactions in InnoDB


UPDATE queries are pending? Yet there have been no reports of the website crashing when, or failing to, update submission info (for example) or (depending on how the website works) dealing with entries from the watch list.



StevenRoy said:


> You can't expect every furry on the FA forums to have a "background in enterprise IT"


I'll take your sarcasm as a compliment. Why yes, I do work in enterprise IT for one of the worlds largest car manufacturers, u jelly bro?

Even if not all users are IT literate to that extent, just throwing any random techno babble to make it seem like everyone is on top of the issue is insulting. Layman terms followed by the more nitty gritty would be very much appreciated. Especially since this website has had many problems in the past that have been mated to confusing and sometimes impossible explanations. _Failed memory in the database server_ was the best one - how a DIMM failed its ECC check and it took them five hours to sort it out - yet to replace the DIMM they'd have to shutdown the physical hardware and pull it form the rack - the website was in read-only mode whilst this was happening, but even in read only mode it still reads from the database - meaning it was still operational. I've seen their server config as well from the Wiki - they don't have battery backed, hot swappable memory boards.



StevenRoy said:


> That would take months, with several teams of coders and technicians and a few exorcists!


You're massively overstating the very obvious problem of a few mangled configurations. I've worked on websites with exactly the same symptoms as FA and some tweaks to the *.config file and a restart of the service are all that will be needed.

$ sudo nano MySQL.config
$ sudo service MySQL restart



StevenRoy said:


> I understood it well enough


There is a stark difference between "well enough" and "entirely". Its Databases 101 - if queries are failing as stated then the engine should be throwing exceptions. There are no exceptions. So they are not failing to process. The slowdown is obviously not caused by queries "failing to process".

*I understood what he said* - it just doesn't match with _how systems such as this actually work._



StevenRoy said:


> and I've been unemployed for over ten years.


Fan-dabby-dozy.



StevenRoy said:


> Cue the mob chanting "Open source! Open source! Open source! Open source!"
> 
> ...Too soon?



They already run on Open Source technology so I don't see how this comment is relevant????????????



nuzzcat said:


> Thank you for speaking on this issue.  I feel bad for the artists who use this site as a primary means to get customers so they can pay their bills.  But stuff happens.  Have you thought about using memcached on some of the common queries?  I noticed that on the page stats, when I hit f5 to refresh, the stats at the bottom of the page indicate that the SQL queries are being run in the same amount of time whether its the first time I've been to the page in awhile or not.  So things like front page, User profile pages, PMs, comment pages, etc, could easily be adapted to use memcached or another caching provider, greatly reducing the database load.
> 
> PM me if you'd like any help with that!



What this guy said.

Use a cache provider and/or tweak configs so the thread/process (etc.) timeouts are shorter after disconnect and also reduce the allotted memory size for each process. (By default I think its 192mb in MySQL)


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## Armaetus (Dec 12, 2013)

If they are running on open source software, are they not obligated to have the code up for display or something?


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 12, 2013)

so...tomorrow maybe?


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Glaice said:


> If they are running on open source software, are they not obligated to have the code up for display or something?



They're website coding is not open source (as shown by lack of source). But the engines they use to power the website are (MySQL and, I think, NGinX)


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## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I'll take your sarcasm as a compliment.


Don't. I dislike you. (Even though you TOTALLY know the difference between sarcasm and other forms of irony!)



> Why yes, I do work in enterprise IT for one of the worlds largest car manufacturers,


Please tell me it's Toyota.
Please tell me it's Toyota!

And stop using that as an excuse to try to sound smarter than you actually are. We get enough of that from the -rest- of the internet, thank you very much!



> u jelly bro?





> Fan-dabby-dozy.


Spoken like a true troll. I'm done with you, sir.


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## Myr (Dec 12, 2013)

Glaice said:


> If they are running on open source software, are they not obligated to have the code up for display or something?


Depends on the license. Normally the answer is no, they are not required to open source their own business logic. These projects wouldn't be anywhere near as popular if they required open sourcing business logic written by project developers. The open source software that FA is using is just a foundation. A developer has to actually build something useful upon it. FA is not part of, a fork, or a derivative of MySQL or Apache or anything else. It simply leverages projects like those in its business logic so they don't have to reinvent the wheel. FA could just as easily use some closed source products in the exact same way if they had the funding for it (not that it would be any better).


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

StevenRoy said:


> Don't. I dislike you.


Mutual 



StevenRoy said:


> Please tell me it's Toyota.
> Please tell me it's Toyota!


I said I work in Enterprise IT, not embedded systems. :/
Well done for confusing the two, however.

EDIT: I also don't work for Toyota.



StevenRoy said:


> And stop using that as an excuse to try to sound smarter than you actually are. We get enough of that from the -rest- of the internet, thank you very much!


When its invalid, yes its annoying - but I can assure you in this instance that my experience and education give me more than adequate knowledge of the situation at hand. Working as a web developer for British Airways as well as a small gaggle of online retailers I can tell you that I have seen this issue over and over again and it's solvable, but FA are going about it the wrong way.




StevenRoy said:


> Spoken like a true troll. I'm done with you, sir.


I said it in a joking manner. Besides, _I_ am not the one that belittled another user asking a legitimate question ("what is going on specifically?")

***

Please, if you are the more knowledgeable person between us then make a useful suggestion towards a long term solution to the website's growing list of software issues. Thus far you have only white-knighted and said nothing useful.


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## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> To quote the admin notice:
> 
> So instead of fixing it properly, just throw more hardware at it. This basically means that it'll eventually break AGAIN with the same issues. I have seen this happen MANY TIMES on this website.


You also missed an important part of the admin notice:



> Using the opportunity to upgrade from MySQL 5.5.x to 5.6.x which brings a number of performance improvements across the board, some of which are directly related to our current problem.


They are not _just_ "throwing more hardware" at it.  Since the database needs to be down, now's an ideal time to update the database backend.  Improvements in MySQL 5.6 should help prevent this particular buildup from occuring in the future.


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## Myr (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> They already run on Open Source technology so I don't see how this comment is relevant????????????


I think what StevenRoy is getting at is peer-reviewed code. Turn the whole concept of a furry art website into an open source project. Give everyone access to the code at all times, have a shared repository, and treat an FA 2.0 (I know, the number is much higher) like an OpenStack or MyPaint or MariaDB. Crowdsource new code for the site rather than relying on an individual regardless of technical credentials. By using the same methods that have allowed open source projects to prosper it would help a future FA to prosper. If you write sloppy code I, as your peer, will spot it and do something about it (in theory). If I write a backdoor you, as my peer, will spot it and do something about it (in theory). It's an approach that has many success stories. I am sure you're familiar with this given what you've already written in this thread, but I want to be verbose for the non-technical food items...erm...I mean furries out there (I am a dragon!).

We can sit here and complain about explanations that make no technical sense and give an impression that the core root of current problems is not well understood, or we could try to do something about it. Personally, I really don't want to jump ship to another site that loves to overload browsers with too many scripts, doesn't have the artists I like, doesn't have the people who commission me, or has a layout that's more form-focused than function focused. Then again, spending hours coding at home after doing it all day at work isn't particularly appealing either. It's definitely a trade-off. At the very least, I could contribute a development server.


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## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

Thank you, Strata and Myr!

Two people who actually get what I'm trying to say here!


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> You also missed an important part of the admin notice:
> 
> 
> They are not _just_ "throwing more hardware" at it.  Since the database needs to be down, now's an ideal time to update the database backend.  Improvements in MySQL 5.6 should help prevent this particular buildup from occuring in the future.



Then why are they transferring to a new system? They clearly state that its because "it may be faster" than letting the database do its thing which, overall, would be more effective. I never once said that the upgrade was a bad idea. :/ but not letting the database clean itself even with an updated database engine will just lead to the same issues.



StevenRoy said:


> Thank you, Strata and Myr!
> 
> Two people who actually get what I'm trying to say here!



All you did was type ""Open source! Open source! Open source! Open source!"" and bitch at me. :/
You could've explained it a tad better... well okay a LOT better.



Myr said:


> We can sit here and complain about explanations that make no technical sense and give an impression that the core root of current problems is not well understood, or we could try to do something about it. Personally, I really don't want to jump ship to another site that loves to overload browsers with too many scripts, doesn't have the artists I like, doesn't have the people who commission me, or has a layout that's more form-focused than function focused. Then again, spending hours coding at home after doing it all day at work isn't particularly appealing either. It's definitely a trade-off. At the very least, I could contribute a development server.



I WANT to do something about it! But if they don't tell us exactly what is wrong then we CAN'T do anything about it and that is why I'm angry!


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## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Then why are they transferring to a new system? They clearly state that its because "it may be faster" than letting the database do its thing which, overall, would be more effective. I never once said that the upgrade was a bad idea. :/ but not letting the database clean itself even with an updated database engine will just lead to the same issues.



Geez, as much as I'd love to state the obvious (two databases are faster  than one, an automatic flush is probably part of the migration  process, and it's already been stated multiple times that the newer software version is less prone to the specific problem that happened here), I've already stated that I was done with this troll! What to  do, what to do...


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

StevenRoy said:


> Geez, as much as I'd love to state the obvious (two databases are faster  than one, an automatic flush is probably part of the migration  process, and it's already been stated multiple times that the newer software version is less prone to the specific problem that happened here), I've already stated that I was done with this troll! What to  do, what to do...



They said *Migrating* to a new system, not having two concurrent systems in a cluster as you seem to be hinting at.


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## Icky (Dec 12, 2013)

If you have a "background in Enterprise IT", I'd at least expect you to be able to multi-quote here.

Just sayin~


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## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> but not letting the database clean itself even with an updated database engine will just lead to the same issues.


You don't (necessarily) know that.  If yak told Dragoneer that MySQL 5.6 fixes (or at least mitigates) the cause that's bogged down FA, it means this particular problem won't happen again, at least not as easily.  The stated problem is like a heart attack:  It was slowly building for a long time but nobody noticed until it caused an actual problem.


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## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

I think the problem stems from the fact Yak doesn't know what he's doing, but keeps the code top secret for fear that he might be criticized about it. I bet I stand with most if not all users when I say let people like benanderson look at the code and potentially fix it, damn Yak's complaints! And besides, there's benefit in it for you too - you won't lose money on having to hand out free _mea culpa_ ad time.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Icky said:


> If you have a "background in Enterprise IT", I'd at least expect you to be able to multi-quote in BBCode.
> 
> Just sayin~



So I forget the little button was there. So sue me 



GamerFox said:


> I think the problem stems from the fact Yak doesn't know what he's doing, but keeps the code top secret for fear that he might be criticized about it. I bet I stand with most if not all users when I say let people like benanderson look at the code and potentially fix it, damn Yak's complaints! And besides, there's benefit in it for you too - you won't lose money on having to hand out free _mea culpa_ ad time.



I have actually seen some code (lovely kinda-sort-of insider got me a sneak) and its not wonderful. I've also been told that Yak doesn't like relational databases and uses techniques from the old flat file days. So the issues are quite prevalent.

(Also, Icky, this is why I can't use multi-quote - replies come in AFTER I post a previous )


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## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

He doesn't like relational databases? Oh fuck me, that's like eschewing a Camaro for a Model T.


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## Ainoko (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> So I forget the little button was there. So sue me



I won't, I have done what you have done a few times myself, don't feel bad.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> No, it's like trying to drain the Pacific Ocean.  Through a soda straw.
> 
> 
> What about 90's music?



Yeah, what about 90's music? I've got a tour of the decade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI53G_D5Dbw- 1990
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMXuuYnoRdI-1991
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I5Dw34ucj4- 1992
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7wmRXEHizI-1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM-1994
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGbzYlnz7c-1995
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiBYM6g8Tck-1996
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoOhnrjdYOc- 1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvUAFxjI7So-1998
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fndeDfaWCg-1999

So you got an eclectic assortment of music ranging from a video game soundtrack, boy bands, gangsta rap, and of course, the Macarena. You are now one Furby,a Hypercolor shirt, and Dallas Cowboys Super Bowl Championship videotape- yes, you must use your VCR- to have claimed that you lived through the 1990's. Now, go play some Earthbound on your Super Nintendo, find JonBenet's killer, and watch "The Head" on MTV and you will be an expert on the Clinton Era.

And if you complain about me including Amy Grant, know that I spent my formative years listening to CCM, which has some really great performers.

Actually, I want to know which was your favorite and why.


----------



## Myr (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I WANT to do something about it! But if they don't tell us exactly what is wrong then we CAN'T do anything about it and that is why I'm angry!


As I indicated, I don't think they know. I think you can pick up the hints to support that theory as well. So what do we do? Do you want to write new code for the site? The existing code is so old and is at its scaling limit. It needs to be replaced. Access to the existing code is not needed to write new code. Only thing that is needed is a database schema for when it's time to migrate. I originally wanted to get involved in this, but a broken down vehicle and holiday crunch time have prevented it so far. I would be quite happy to lend a server and actually put together a documented architecture to build to though.



Stratadrake said:


> [. . .]MySQL 5.6 fixes (or at least mitigates) the cause that's bogged down FA, it means this particular problem won't happen again, at least not as easily[. . .]


It, unfortunately, will happen again. Bumping the database version won't have nearly the same impact as optimizing every query and studying how larger sites have solves issues with their databases. I'm personally convinced the core problem here is not understood, but I really don't want to say anything further than that. I don't have patience or time for pissing matches.


----------



## Kaeko (Dec 12, 2013)

i'll wait for an update tomorrow and for now go get some shut eye.

good luck with getting the site back up, we would all appreciate it


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## Kesteh (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> They are not _just_ "throwing more hardware" at it.  Since the database needs to be down, now's an ideal time to update the database backend.  Improvements in MySQL 5.6 should help prevent this particular buildup from occuring in the future.


This appears to be one of those things that the "oh latest version should work!" mindset will not fix.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 12, 2013)

Glaice said:


> If they are running on open source software, are they not obligated to have the code up for display or something?



Only if the open-source software uses an AGPL license, which it most likely doesn't.


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## Nanakisan (Dec 12, 2013)

Given all the BS you guys have been going through lately. I feel a break is needed and i'm dead certain the community can live without FA for awhile longer. Just keep relaxed and do your jobs. Its all we ask for Neer and the admin team.


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> He doesn't like relational databases? Oh fuck me, that's like eschewing a Camaro for a Model T.


More like ditching SAP for Excel and a hamster. 



Myr said:


> As I indicated, I don't think they know. I think you can pick up the hints to support that theory as well. So what do we do? Do you want to write new code for the site? The existing code is so old and is at its scaling limit. It needs to be replaced. Access to the existing code is not needed to write new code. Only thing that is needed is a database schema for when it's time to migrate. I originally wanted to get involved in this, but a broken down vehicle and holiday crunch time have prevented it so far. I would be quite happy to lend a server and actually put together a documented architecture to build to though.


I, too, would lend a hand for front end development work for desktop and mobile quite happily. If there is one thing this website is crying out for its responsive design and better integration with touch screens. Also the obvious movement away from tables as a layout method circa 1995 but hey-ho 




Myr said:


> It, unfortunately, will happen again. Bumping the database version won't have nearly the same impact as optimizing every query and studying how larger sites have solves issues with their databases. I'm personally convinced the core problem here is not understood, but I really don't want to say anything further than that. I don't have patience or time for pissing matches.


5.6.x does improve on throughput and efficiency, but you are right (and reaffirming exactly what I previously stated) that just migrating and bumping versions will just result in the same problems if the database is inefficient and incorrectly configured. It'll still fall over as it has done in the past.

Thinking back to FA's previous hardware drives, the servers they have actually have a good amount of memory and decent processors installed. For the site to become so slow does point to efficiency woes and it will be memory rather than raw CPU grunt. As you said, we don't know the specifics but I'd still highly recommend cutting the number of child processes/threads, reducing the allotted memory per process and etc. etc. in the configuration file first and restarting the service. If the scratch space is completely full then a hard restart will be required to get the best results.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> We can't rule out what kinds of caching functions the FA codebase may or may not have already - we simply don't know.



Actually, based on this screenshot I just took, and my experience as a software engineer, I can tell you that I'm 90% sure that caching is not used enough on this site.
http://ft.trillian.im/30a23cd835c1a6834bcb6c7b2740649b0f2aaf28/6lNZGXdjplBop1qfGJFlPzPeH9LZx.jpg

This was taken from the front homepage of furaffinity.net.  The page contains "Recent Artwork" "Recent Photos" etc, which appears the same for *all* users.  But for each user that goes to the homepage, the same exact SQL queries are executed.  If a cache were used, then the SQL queries could be configured on the page to run at most every 10 seconds.  So the SQL Server has to do disk or memory I/O, enumerate the results, and pipe the data from database server to web server many times over and over, when it could just save those types of results on a medium that is more designed for fast lookups.  If you want the cache to be specific for each user, then you insert the user id into the "cache key".  

Another thing, you can usually only have one SQL database server per website, unless you are a big corporation or have an army of engineers and specialists that know how to do database sharding correctly.

This is why you need good coders.  I applied to become an admin earlier but I did not hear anything back.  I'd offer to help with the code now but I don't have the free time anymore as I've joined another project.  Hopefully we will see some good improvements to the site soon.

Here's some reading for anyone interested: http://code.google.com/p/memcached/wiki/TutorialCachingStory


----------



## Amaroq (Dec 12, 2013)

I would just like to say, I hope they fix it soon. I would like to stop occasionally seeing that disgusting lola bunny thing on the front page when I check the site. (I say this as a straight guy.)


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## nuzzcat (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I'll take your sarcasm as a compliment. Why yes, I do work in enterprise IT for one of the worlds largest car manufacturers, u jelly bro?



I appreciate the suggestions and trying to help but there are always going to be people with better jobs and worse jobs than you.  I've worked for big companies before and it was not exactly a fun experience for me.  Please do not let statements like this perpetuate the stereotype that software geeks are snobs.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 12, 2013)

Nanakisan said:


> Given all the BS you guys have been going through lately. I feel a break is needed and i'm dead certain the community can live without FA for awhile longer. Just keep relaxed and do your jobs. Its all we ask for Neer and the admin team.



I can certainly live without FA, I'm just worried because I know some artists that use this as their primary means of income, and it would really suck for them if this site were to go away for a long time.


----------



## Nanakisan (Dec 12, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> I appreciate the suggestions and trying to help but there are always going to be people with better jobs and worse jobs than you.  I've worked for big companies before and it was not exactly a fun experience for me.  Please do not let statements like this perpetuate the stereotype that software geeks are snobs.



suggestion for you. stop posting and sounding like a fool. because despite your previous statement. You've been acting like a snob.

-Edit oh and nice double post there. ever heard of a edit button?


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 12, 2013)

Nanakisan said:


> suggestion for you. stop posting and sounding like a fool. because despite your previous statement. You've been acting like a snob.
> 
> -Edit oh and nice double post there. ever heard of a edit button?



Thank you for the suggestion.  Sorry if I sounded like a snob, but I was not trying to be one.  Try to be a little nicer, you will make more friends that way.


----------



## Shaki (Dec 12, 2013)

Good luck with it! Hope it's fixed soon and there won't be more trouble with it ^^


----------



## Ainoko (Dec 12, 2013)

Amaroq said:


> I would just like to say, I hope they fix it soon. I would like to stop occasionally seeing that disgusting lola bunny thing on the front page when I check the site. (I say this as a straight guy.)



I just saw that, and that scares me


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## Rukani (Dec 12, 2013)

Amaroq said:


> I would just like to say, I hope they fix it soon. I would like to stop occasionally seeing that disgusting lola bunny thing on the front page when I check the site. (I say this as a straight guy.)



I'm fairly sure the front page has had worse things..


----------



## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

*"I just want to tell you both, good luck. We're all counting on you!"*

(Time for that Airplane quote again?)



GamerFox said:


> I think the problem stems from the fact Yak doesn't know what he's doing, but keeps the code top secret for fear that he might be criticized about it.


It's easy enough to say "Yak doesn't know what he's doing", but when you get right down to it, that's actually a fairly harsh accusation. Perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to judge, at least not until we have more evidence of this than just the occasional day or two of database downtime. (It's not even site downtime, just database downtime.)

Besides, if some of us can doubt that Neer knows entirely everything that's up with the servers, wouldn't it be awfully presumptuous of any of us non-admins to pretend to have enough information to know exactly how to fix all these deep-seeded problems once and for all with a single SQL configuration tweak? (Seriously, that annoyed the crap outta me. Keep your "sudo nano" to yourself until you know what to type next!)



> ...I bet I stand with most if not all users when I say let people like benanderson look at the code and potentially fix it, damn Yak's complaints! And besides, there's benefit in it for you too - you won't lose money on having to hand out free mea culpa ad time.


*If* Yak truly does prove unworthy (not just in our eyes but those of the administration as well), I will fully support this idea. All of it.

(Despite how I may feel personally about benanderson after only a few hours of interaction on a furry message board where everyone's annoyed to begin with, I'll acknowledge that he's probably more competent than his self-admitted anger let him sound at first. The only real things about him that I take issue with are his refusal to believe - or even understand? - what I consider a perfectly plausible explanation for the current site issues, and his frequent attempts to imply that he, and only he, knows what is truly going on and has all the answers. If he can put the "conspiracy theorist" mindset and the "Messiah complex" aside - at least that's how I perceived his first few posts on this thread - and go 24 hours without accusing anyone else of "white-knighting" or trying to belittle him, I honestly wouldn't mind having him in charge of reviewing FA's code and structure, and fixing what is necessary.)



nuzzcat said:


> Actually, based on this screenshot I just took, and my experience as a software engineer, I can tell you that I'm 90% sure that caching is not used enough on this site.
> http://ft.trillian.im/30a23cd835c1a6834bcb6c7b2740649b0f2aaf28/6lNZGXdjplBop1qfGJFlPzPeH9LZx.jpg
> 
> This was taken from the front homepage of furaffinity.net. The page contains "Recent Artwork" "Recent Photos" etc, which appears the same for *all* users. But for each user that goes to the homepage, the same exact SQL queries are executed. If a cache were used, then the SQL queries could be configured on the page to run at most every 10 seconds.


Considering how long "memcached" has been around, I'd be rather surprised if FA wasn't using it (or some equivalent) already! (But I also wouldn't be surprised if they were using it badly and/or not enough!)

It's a valid idea in any case.

Also, I kinda doubt the accuracy of those times displayed at the bottom of every page. Even when the server's under really heavy load and running slowly as a result, they don't seem to change much for me! (Then again, I'm not in the habit of looking at them every single time I load a page! Who is?)


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm an early student in IT and what these guys are saying are making my head spin...and making me dread all the shit I still have to learn ._.
At any rate it is refreshing to see some knowledgable people offering a better explination of what's going on. Even if it is starting little flame wars >w>;;


----------



## FireFoxinc (Dec 12, 2013)

Replacing the 15k drives with SSDs would also help with the issue.

whatever configuration the server is running just can not keep up with the raw I/O load. That would be why it is writing to a temp file. Every time a change is needed to be made to the db, it has to read the db, read the file then most likely just write the change to the file because it can not keep up.

I think maby some software tweaks can be done but in the end something like this comes from a I/O issue. A 20, 1TB SSD array in raid 10 will cost you $12000. That is a very powerful way of fixing the issue but it costs money.  There is another way by using a VM cluster array but that in itself can be a bit complicated   There is a branch of computer science specifically for this topic for a reason.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Dec 12, 2013)

FireFoxinc said:


> Replacing the 15k drives with SSDs would also help with the issue.
> 
> whatever configuration the server is running just can not keep up with the raw I/O load. That would be why it is writing to a temp file. Every time a change is needed to be made to the db, it has to read the db, read the file then most likely just write the change to the file because it can not keep up.
> 
> I think maby some software tweaks can be done but in the end something like this comes from a I/O issue. A 20, 1TB SSD array in raid 10 will cost you $12000. That is a very powerful way of fixing the issue but it costs money.  There is another way by using a VM cluster array but that in itself can be a bit complicated   There is a branch of computer science specifically for this topic for a reason.



Holy crap a server full of SSD's? I think the admins need to play the lotto XD MAKE IT HAPPEN


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 12, 2013)

FireFoxinc said:


> Replacing the 15k drives with SSDs would also help with the issue.
> 
> whatever configuration the server is running just can not keep up with the raw I/O load. That would be why it is writing to a temp file. Every time a change is needed to be made to the db, it has to read the db, read the file then most likely just write the change to the file because it can not keep up.
> 
> I think maby some software tweaks can be done but in the end something like this comes from a I/O issue. A 20, 1TB SSD array in raid 10 will cost you $12000. That is a very powerful way of fixing the issue but it costs money.  There is another way by using a VM cluster array but that in itself can be a bit complicated   There is a branch of computer science specifically for this topic for a reason.



I assume you're willing to front that kind of money?


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## DrkKaiser (Dec 12, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> I assume you're willing to front that kind of money?



Personally, I think the simple solution is to get people on board who can handle this kind of site, and do so efficiently.
What we hear on here or speculate doesn't matter- The fact is this place keeps going down, keeps slowing down, and no one seems to have the capacity to actually augment the backend or site coding but this "Yak" individual.

ONE person whom we've yet to see credentials for, or even any prior evidence of skill in site coding, and he's supposed to handle the entire site's maintenance? That isn't supposed to happen. 

Also, In before "Volunteers aren't being paid enough" and other anecdotal B.S.


----------



## lolox (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm an IT professional working on one of the largest sites in the country I live in. We also use MySQL and PHP for our services. The way FA has handled this issue is completely foreign to me. There's no reason why it should take this long. The way the problem has been described makes no sense, as benanderson already pointed out.


----------



## marmelmm (Dec 12, 2013)

*Re: "I just want to tell you both, good luck. We're all counting on you!"*



StevenRoy said:


> (Time for that Airplane quote again?)
> Also, I kinda doubt the accuracy of those times displayed at the bottom of every page. Even when the server's under really heavy load and running slowly as a result, they don't seem to change much for me! (Then again, I'm not in the habit of looking at them every single time I load a page! Who is?)



TAN:  I just check the number of viewers, myself, so I know when it's a good time to upload arts.  Helpful hint:  The "sweet spot" seems to be in the 9k-11k range.  Less than that, you may not get enough new views from browsing users.  More than that, you may get ignored because of a flood of new submissions. 

-MMM-


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## AmaruKaze (Dec 12, 2013)

FireFoxinc said:


> Replacing the 15k drives with SSDs would also help with the issue.
> 
> whatever configuration the server is running just can not keep up with the raw I/O load. That would be why it is writing to a temp file. Every time a change is needed to be made to the db, it has to read the db, read the file then most likely just write the change to the file because it can not keep up.
> 
> I think maby some software tweaks can be done but in the end something like this comes from a I/O issue. A 20, 1TB SSD array in raid 10 will cost you $12000. That is a very powerful way of fixing the issue but it costs money.  There is another way by using a VM cluster array but that in itself can be a bit complicated   There is a branch of computer science specifically for this topic for a reason.



I know it is easy to assume problems will be fixed with the hardware being improved but dear lord why not grasp the problem at the root and solve the clogging.

As benanderson said until know we do not have the certainty that the staff have found the issue, the step up in version is not the fix for the problem. It is less likely to happen now or less quickly but still will indeed. When you got fungus in your house, it is correct to kill it, remove the remains and repaint the walls but if one does not address the cause for it to develop one can just wait for its return.

Yet again many people are offering help, advice and information for free and why does Yak not really get here and have at least a chit-chatter with them per private message. I mean that would help additionally speaking out of experience, everyone makes mistake so the four eye principle and code review made by others is essentially. I mean no one blames Yak, if one of the professionals here reads my code he/she would probably point horrible mistakes out as well ( which may be dormant and work 90% of the time but screw the whole system when stepped onto )

The other thing if benanderson is right and there is no relational database in use I fear that there is a lot of redundancy and given the limited resources of FA it makes me sigh already. Additionally as mentioned before, the fandom has experts who can over time contribute. It just hurts and makes me cringe watching someone being offered help over and over again but instead decides to ignore advice. 

 I hope, Yak and the staff somewhen see there is no threat in those coders. No one wants to be a moderator or administrator, as it is for some of us too much to handle or deal with but please get help on the code, especially if it is for free. It can barely get worse with a major malfunction every six to seven months like in the history of FA so far.


----------



## Haystack (Dec 12, 2013)

y'know, all these comments bashing on Yak might well be considered disallowable content.
the forum rules specifically forbid attacks on FA staff.

GamerFox, et. al., may wish to cool their jets or, if not, suffer a totally-legitimate ban, based upon the forum rules.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 12, 2013)

Haystack said:


> y'know, all these comments bashing on Yak might well be considered disallowable content.
> the forum rules specifically forbid attacks on FA staff.
> 
> GamerFox, et. al., may wish to cool their jets or, if not, suffer a totally-legitimate ban, based upon the forum rules.



Did you ever think that those rules were set in place in order to facilitate an excuse for people to be lazy?
Let them ban people, guess what happens in the end? The people who are banned are only proven right. 
If your boss decides to tell you to get off your ass and get to work, are you going to try to get him fired? No, you're going to do your job. 

In this situation, it's the exact same thing- We, the people, are tired of having ineptitude and ignorance be the only markers we've seen for this site.
the veil of inexperience being the gateway to acceptance of these situations is rapidly decreasing with the amount of people who actually know what they're doing constantly calling to attention the broken, mishandled, and outdated methods employed to keep this site running. 

In other words- We're making sure the squeaky wheels get the damn grease they need.


----------



## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

Haystack said:


> y'know, all these comments bashing on Yak might well be considered disallowable content.
> the forum rules specifically forbid attacks on FA staff.
> 
> GamerFox, et. al., may wish to cool their jets or, if not, suffer a totally-legitimate ban, based upon the forum rules.



All well and nice, but Yak is the main coder. If bans are dished out over people complaining about his skills and so on in relation to the multiple downtimes (That were always "solved" by hardware) then I think something is inherently wrong. He and the other staff involved in the back-end do need to step up and be transparent about this. 

Heck I'm no IT expert and it wasn't hard to spot a pattern. _Site trundles along > Site Slows down > Site crashes > Enters Read-Only > Maintenance is performed_

Then either: 

_Site reopens > Site Slows down > Site crashes > Enters Read-Only > Maintenance is performed_
*Or:*
_Push for new hardware, again. (Though the first option can end here too)
_
This methodology is more like trying to heal a horrible wound, with just a band-aid, as that's what the hardware is in the long run. Yes the database software is being upgraded, but how long until the updated software ends up disagreeing with the site again and we're back here, again?

My honest opinion is either take some time to chat with the more qualified members here attempting to offer advice, or just hold a donation drive to pay someone to sort things out (And hopefully actually update the site in the process )


----------



## FireFoxinc (Dec 12, 2013)

Well I am aware that you can optimise the code base as well. The thing is we can not 100% say that is the core issue. 

Lets just say you can improve the load by 20% with code changes. That is all well but you are still in the read with issues. It seems this issue has been going on for some time since it is taking over 24 hours to catch up. 

I know I am pointing out a very pricey fix. I do not think the db needs 10tb of space. It might only need 5 and cut down on the price in half. When it comes to funds for it, that makes me scratch my head and just wonder. This site draws in how much traffic? Put up a donation box. Everyone puts a few dollars in and you got the funds. Even a fundraiser would work. 

There is a issue and we know this. I know software fixs are nice but when you go to SSD it lifts the random IO limit about 50 times. Be one of the best ways to insure there will not be issues 

Also can just turn the backlog file ability and just watch the website slow.itself to what it can truly handle. I am sure people will love that 

Also keep in mind I am saying this.pointing at a fix that will work. It might not be what people want but it will fix the issue. I am sure if yac had a fix he would do it by now.


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## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

*The difference between SQL and SOL is just one line.*

Yeah, there might not be an "easy" answer...

So, after about ten hours since the last update, are we about due for another update on the progress of the migration? I assume it's not still at 53%...


----------



## Dragoncat (Dec 12, 2013)

*Re: The difference between SQL and SOL is just one line.*



StevenRoy said:


> Yeah, there might not be an "easy" answer...
> 
> So, after about ten hours since the last update, are we about due for another update on the progress of the migration? I assume it's not still at 53%...



Agreed, although I'm enjoying where this topic is going. A lot of us have quite a bit to say about how it feels like some things weren't coded in an efficient/good way.

And yes, an update would be wonderful.. especially with numbers or a percent ;pp


----------



## Mewtwolover (Dec 12, 2013)

Nanakisan said:


> i'm dead certain the community can live without FA for awhile longer.


Me too, FA isn't the only furry site so it should be easy.


----------



## AuraBeedit (Dec 12, 2013)

I wonder why does FA has so many website problems but not DA, weasyl, inkbunny, tumblr etc... HMMMMMM


----------



## maxgoof (Dec 12, 2013)

Bear in mind also that the database of FA is at least twice the size of Inkbunny's, SoFurry's, and Weasyl. We don't know how theirs would perform under the load FA is required to handle (SoFurry in particular is often either down or chugging along).

I'm not saying that performance can't be improved with better coding but realistically, for most things the improvement will only be on a O(nlogn) order which means that something that takes ten minutes to perform on one database could take 30-40 minutes on one twice as large.


----------



## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

StevenRoy said:


> Yeah, there might not be an "easy" answer...


There isn't, but there's a simplified answer.


FireFoxinc said:


> Well I am aware that you can optimise the code base as well. The thing is we can not 100% say that is the core issue.
> 
> Lets just say you can improve the load by 20% with code changes. That is all well but you are still in the read with issues. It seems this issue has been going on for some time since it is taking over 24 hours to catch up.
> 
> ...


Except that's just more of the same "usual" fix, throw more hardware at it until issues resurface. The hardware is getting better than some companies have, and yet they're not failing regularly. A software side fix, is clearly needed.



AuraBeedit said:


> I wonder why does FA has so many website problems but not DA, weasyl, inkbunny, tumblr etc... HMMMMMM



Weasyl and InkBunny are incomparable, they're much smaller.
Tumblr is a full on company, and they have plenty of problems, mostly from ineptitude.

deviantART *is* a good example up until they became a fully fledged company with employees to deal with datacentres, coding etc. Which was probably about 5 years into it's life. Modern deviantART isn't even comparable to FA/Weasyl/IB/SF/Tumblr/Sheezy, they're essentially Olympus Mons whereas everyone else is Ben Nevis.


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## maxgoof (Dec 12, 2013)

AuraBeedit said:


> I wonder why does FA has so many website problems but not DA, weasyl, inkbunny, tumblr etc... HMMMMMM



Database size for one. For another, DA does not have to handle sound files.

And I note that SoFurry is not on your list, since they do have many website problems.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Database size for one. For another, DA does not have to handle sound files.



dA handles video though. As in, videofiles, not just flash, which I'd argue takes up more processing power and storage  Though that is down to a limited group I believe. 

However given that deviantART's stats of 29million members (Inactive and active), and over 65million unique page-views a month, I'd still say without the audio options, they're incomparable


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## FireFoxinc (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> There isn't, but there's a simplified answer.
> 
> Except that's just more of the same "usual" fix, throw more hardware at it until issues resurface. The hardware is getting better than some companies have, and yet they're not failing regularly. A software side fix, is clearly needed.



I know many people are pointing at the software issue. I am sure there can be many fixs but that does not shy from the big issue.

I am quite surethey noticed that the InnoDB backlog was getting large. This happens at times but the server will catch up during off peak hours. However it seems that it simply was not able to keep up.

I think they saw the issues, where looking at what to do then hit the breaks when it got at a critical level of no return.

So a fix needs to be done, unless whatever they are doing now will fix the issue and gain some time. When it comes to cost of the SSD array, that factors of how big of one they need. If the whole thing is 1TB, would point to getting 4 1TB SSD in a raid 10. Would put the storage at 2TB and have room for expansion.

As for software thats another topic I am sure people went over.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

FireFoxinc said:


> I know many people are pointing at the software issue. I am sure there can be many fixs but that does not shy from the big issue.
> 
> I am quite server they noticed that the InnoDB backlog was getting large. This happens at times but the server will catch up during off peak hours. However it seems that it simply was not able to keep up.
> 
> ...


It's still, overall, a horrendously pricey option for a site that doesn't generate that kind of revenue easily without "drives". Plus bad management will still cause issues on good hardware. If there are people working for companies that process more data than FA, and have worse hardware, I fail to see why throwing more money into hardware is a good idea.


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## Dragoncat (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> It's still, overall, a horrendously pricey option for a site that doesn't generate that kind of revenue easily without "drives". Plus bad management will still cause issues on good hardware. If there are people working for companies that process more data than FA, and have worse hardware, I fail to see why throwing more money into hardware is a good idea.



Lets not even bring up the lack of admins and how this is affecting the site lol


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## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

I just....don't understand people?
I saw a bunch of thread's being all,

_"We want and update, we want and update! Apologize to us, Apologize to us"
_
And when they do it....PEOPLE ARE STILL ANGRY AND ATTACKING NEER AND THE CODERS!
Like take a chill pill people?
I'm sure they're trying their best. (I've read all the posts in here and I agree with a bunch of you talking about the coding and what should be done even though it's all mumbo jumbo for me.)

But from what I can see, no matter how much of an update they give or how they did what the users asked and apologized, it doesn't really do a difference. People are still angry and upset, people will still complain.
It's just...quite silly to me...

For the artists, take this time to finish the commissions "You already have"
That way when FA comes back up you'll be able to take on more and not feel so clustered in what you owe.
For people just viewing for the art "Honestly try other sites, always have a backup plan and...enjoy the internet for everything else not just furry porn"

And for people that miss their friends....Honestly that's what skype and all the other forms of communications are for.
Sorry you miss your online bf/gf or biffle, but honestly...skype.

and also...

OH LOOK THERE'S THIS THING CALLED OUTSIDE AND IT SMELLS SO FRESH AND STUFF AND OMG I MAY BE ABLE TO SEE PEOPLE TODAY!

That's all I have to say.
I hope everyone is having a nice day today though.


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## Haystack (Dec 12, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> Did you ever think that those rules were set in place in order to facilitate an excuse for people to be lazy?
> Let them ban people, guess what happens in the end? The people who are banned are only proven right.
> If your boss decides to tell you to get off your ass and get to work, are you going to try to get him fired? No, you're going to do your job. . . .
> 
> In other words- We're making sure the squeaky wheels get the damn grease they need.



really?  you're that up in arms about a website that provides its main, non-advertising services totally free of charge to its users?
tell me: have you actually donated anything towards the financial upkeep of FA?

from my various experiences dealing with tech support and sales support, "squeaky wheel" tends to equate to "entitlement-minded jerk", 
so that's rrrrreally not a way to sway me over to your way of thinking.

I've never been of the mindset of "the customer is always right", especially when "the customer" doesn't pay a red cent for the service
and wants to whine all day long about how the service doesn't fit their needs.



DarkOverord said:


> All well and nice, but Yak is the main coder. If bans are dished out over people complaining about his skills and so on in relation to the multiple downtimes (That were always "solved" by hardware) then I think something is inherently wrong. He and the other staff involved in the back-end do need to step up and be transparent about this.



as I asked the other fellow -- have you donated to the site?  

all that being said, it -would- be nice if we didn't have to deal with these all-too-frequent outages, slowdowns, and such...
but you're not going to ever see me bashing on the folks who keep this thing up and running (most of the time) for us.
they're not paid for it, I'm pretty sure.   

it's fine to offer advice... but I was pretty sick of the Yak-bashing long before I piped up in this thread about it.
I don't know him personally, don't really have an opinion one way or the other about 'im, 
but I do feel some of the vitriol that's been sent his way in this very thread has been way, way, abusive.

please, give the dude a break.  I'm sure he and the other staff are doing the best they can to make things better for FA's future.


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## Dragoncat (Dec 12, 2013)

No one's attacking, we're just frustrated because things have always felt very half assed and unplanned downtime is just another thing that adds to our list of how the site really really needs to work on things - not just coding.
Yes, this is a "free" site, and yes, neer and others do this as a hobby, but the site has flourished to the point where it cant be a hobby anymore >:
If fA had subs like dA, you bet I'd be paying to support the site as long as my money actually did something, which at this point there is no show of improvement even within the past 2 years.


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## Xantouke (Dec 12, 2013)

Honestly? You all seem to be running around in circles. I think the inherent problem is that there is no transparency and no one is talking. 'Neer's original post only seems to have been made to attempt to get people off his back or to quell fears. Or he may just have been relaying something that Yak told him, which he may not have fully understand himself. Whichever it was, he still used incoherent tech-babble that doesn't actually bring to light what the problem *is*. _Which is what Yak should be doing._ 

The site has constantly had problems with performance and down-times, and has always been "fixed" with hardware upgrades, only for problems creep back in almost immediately. Either it's a problem with server config files, like Ben had said, and that is can as simple as a tweak OR it's a problem that lies in the coding of the site itself. The fact the the actual problem hasn't been announced, or worse, _hasn't been discovered_, and they're using hardware upgrades or server migration as a stop-gap doesn't bode well to the competence of the site's technical staff. Especially since this has been _an ongoing problem_. Help is being offered all over the place, but it's constantly being ignored.

I'm not going to say Yak doesn't know what he's doing, but *we* don't know what he's doing. We've barely heard a blip from him. As far as I know, he seems to be the only active coder for the site, which leads me to believe that they really should consider taking on more coders who are qualified. It would also lend to a peer-reviewed system, since more eyes will be available to look at code and differing levels of experience would lend to faster or more creative solutions AND they can pick up and fix coding hiccups that could potentially cause the site to slow down tremendously, before it actually does. 

And if Yak is using a coding system that is radically out-of-date or inefficient, he really should consider letting others in and _help him_.

And as a side note; How often have we been promised an upgrade to the site? How often has it fallen through?


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> I appreciate the suggestions and trying to help but there are always going to be people with better jobs and worse jobs than you.  I've worked for big companies before and it was not exactly a fun experience for me.  Please do not let statements like this perpetuate the stereotype that software geeks are snobs.



I never said it was fun. I'm using my current job role to give a good indicator of what my skill set and understanding of the situation is. Yes, in hindsight I should've not bitten and responded with a horridly sarcastic statement - but its done now so what can ya do :/



StevenRoy said:


> (Time for that Airplane quote again?)
> 
> It's easy enough to say "Yak doesn't know what he's doing", but when you get right down to it, that's actually a fairly harsh accusation. Perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to judge, at least not until we have more evidence of this than just the occasional day or two of database downtime. (It's not even site downtime, just database downtime.)


Its still technically service downtime as it affects the operation of the website. Its like saying that the broken turbo charger in a car is no big deal because the satnav still works.
Anyway - when it comes to Yak it wont be that he doesn't know what he is doing - from what I know its actually because of his incredibly stubborn attitude and refusal to modernise his skillset.



StevenRoy said:


> Besides, if some of us can doubt that Neer knows entirely everything that's up with the servers, wouldn't it be awfully presumptuous of any of us non-admins to pretend to have enough information to know exactly how to fix all these deep-seeded problems once and for all with a single SQL configuration tweak? (Seriously, that annoyed the crap outta me. Keep your "sudo nano" to yourself until you know what to type next!)


My word if editing one config file solved every single issue under the sun my job would be a whole lot easier 
Problem with Columbus Z? Tweak that config!
Problems with MSSQL? Tweak that config!
I wish. 
But to get back on the straight and narrow - I never said it'd magically fix everything because the problems will lie in the code base and DB structure, but it will curb some memory issues and improve performance if done correctly - as I said, websites I've worked on with the same symptoms have benefited from this - optimisation can never hurt, can it?



StevenRoy said:


> (Despite how I may feel personally about benanderson after only a few hours of interaction on a furry message board where everyone's annoyed to begin with, I'll acknowledge that he's probably more competent than his self-admitted anger let him sound at first. The only real things about him that I take issue with are his refusal to believe - or even understand? - what I consider a perfectly plausible explanation for the current site issues, and his frequent attempts to imply that he, and only he, knows what is truly going on and has all the answers. If he can put the "conspiracy theorist" mindset and the "Messiah complex" aside - at least that's how I perceived his first few posts on this thread - and go 24 hours without accusing anyone else of "white-knighting" or trying to belittle him, I honestly wouldn't mind having him in charge of reviewing FA's code and structure, and fixing what is necessary.)


I am stressed to pieces IRL and I should've taken a deep breath and drank some nice tea before jumping into this forum.
But responses like this from you do not help matters. I never said I have the end all solution, I never said I was the ONLY person with the knowledge of these systems.
I asked the question of "what is going on?" because I find being fed excuses that do not gel with how real world technology actually works is, to me, a little insulting.

I am sorry for snapping, but we both need chill pills here.

I will take the vote of confidence with a genuine thank you  - if I do get a chance to even do something minor with FA I'll try my gosh-diggity-darndest to make something useful comes from it, even if its just front-end work.



FireFoxinc said:


> Replacing the 15k drives with SSDs would also help with the issue.
> 
> whatever configuration the server is running just can not keep up with the raw I/O load. That would be why it is writing to a temp file. Every time a change is needed to be made to the db, it has to read the db, read the file then most likely just write the change to the file because it can not keep up.
> 
> I think maby some software tweaks can be done but in the end something like this comes from a I/O issue. A 20, 1TB SSD array in raid 10 will cost you $12000. That is a very powerful way of fixing the issue but it costs money.  There is another way by using a VM cluster array but that in itself can be a bit complicated   There is a branch of computer science specifically for this topic for a reason.


That is the exact "just throw hardware at it" mentality that quite a few people have already pointed out is just plain daft. FA has powerful hardware, the issue is software. We have a couple of database boxes at work that are so old they still run NT4 and Pentium III Xeon CPUs, yet they can crunch database records in MSSQL 24/7 and have done for 10+ years without a hiccup and without slowdown to the services they provide.


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## BlazeIgnitus (Dec 12, 2013)

Haystack said:


> really?  you're that up in arms about a website that provides its main, non-advertising services totally free of charge to its users?
> tell me: have you actually donated anything towards the financial upkeep of FA?
> 
> from my various experiences dealing with tech support and sales support, "squeaky wheel" tends to equate to "entitlement-minded jerk",
> ...



That's all fine, well, and good, but the fact of the matter is that Yak and the other admins should have realized from the outset that if they were to be admins in any sort of facility, they would be held under much scrutiny from the userbase overall, just as any politician in the U.S. and other nations are held accountable for actions that go on with the government that aren't up to snuff. If a person who volunteered to be an admin cannot take this scrutiny level-headedly and decides to ban because they are being criticized, then it is clear that they are not fit for the role. As an administrator of a site you are responsible for more than just your assigned area; you are also, in a sense, responsible for your own public relations. Banning people for criticizing you is not the way to go about things and it only hurts your reputation rather than helps.

Take into account as well that former members of the coding team who've since left have stated that Yak would not allow them to touch the coding "for fear they'd mess something up" and you can most certainly put all of the criticism on Yak. Why have a coding team if they aren't allowed to even do any of the work? Perhaps this is merely hearsay, but it is still something to possibly consider, as it could in fact be true.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

Haystack said:


> as I asked the other fellow -- have you donated to the site?
> 
> all that being said, it -would- be nice if we didn't have to deal with these all-too-frequent outages, slowdowns, and such...
> but you're not going to ever see me bashing on the folks who keep this thing up and running (most of the time) for us.
> ...


If I have? If I haven't? Does it matter when as it stands we have a site that it's almost become a regular joke about FA's downtime or about it's speed? Yes it is a free service, it also serves as a community hub, and as such is not just a disadvantage to it's userbase, but the community when it's down like this

Anger will be directed at Yak and Neer for those reasons, Neer because he owns the place (Afterall, most people don't blame lesser known members of News Corp for being corrupt, but just Rupert Murdoch himself), and Yak because he's well known for being responsible for code. This *will* happen.

Yes, none of them are paid (so far as we know), but that only in cases outlines the need for perhaps having a properly dedicated coding team (As other sites of similar proportions to FA, do). AS it stands, we're running on an outdated site that is showing it's age as it's bloated more and more.

EDIT: Guys, I would also suggest elaborating between "Admin" and "Code/Dev Team", because the admins don't really handle the backend.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Dec 12, 2013)

I get why the main focus is on this thread, but there is more to FAF then just this thread people.

I know I'm stating the obvious and being counter productive to the problems regarding FA, but tech support are on it, so all you can do is wait.


Check out The Den, I _dare _â€‹ya's.


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## Dragoncat (Dec 12, 2013)

Mr. Fox said:


> I get why the main focus is on this thread, but there is more to FAF then just this thread people.
> 
> I know I'm stating the obvious and being counter productive to the problems regarding FA, but tech support are on it, so all you can do is wait.
> 
> ...



What else is this forum for? >_>


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## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

Mr. Fox said:


> I get why the main focus is on this thread, but there is more to FAF then just this thread people.
> 
> I know I'm stating the obvious and being counter productive to the problems regarding FA, but tech support are on it, so all you can do is wait.
> 
> ...


I actually frquent the game section of the forums and play word games with other users hahaha.
Art section, Game Section and idk what else I was trying to say is what I usually go to, this is the first time I said my two cents in a site status thread ^^
Even if all I said was an overview of what I've been seeing and not really trying to give anything of value.


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## Koda (Dec 12, 2013)

Not saying this is what happened here, but some database engines have a thing called a transaction log, which basically logs everything that goes on in a db server in case there is a need to rollback or recover from something bad. It is quite possible that grew insanely large and the db software just needs time to churn through it to get back to a consistent state.

Rather than go into techy details which most people either don't understand, think they understand, or don't care about:
1) What broke? DB
2) How long till un-broke? Maybe a couple days


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## ThreeDawg (Dec 12, 2013)

This is a perfect example of the usual furry panic that sets in when the site goes down.

> Tell us your sorry, and bring back the site! Why is it not up yet? Complain! Complain! Complain!

> Shut up ya gits, the site is a free one, you have no right to be complaining!

That, showing the two sides arguing.

As I see it, while the site is free, it is constantly plagued with issues that are both unexplained, or simply not explained enough. Half-Assing it, as it were.

True transparency is required. And personally, I can't see how simply patching the giant hole in the ship from hitting an iceberg will help, if the patch is made with bubble gum, and duct tape. We need a more permanent  solution to this.

Edited for: Dun Goof'd, damn connection and pad.


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## MonsterRoo (Dec 12, 2013)

Obviously everyone is frustrated and taking this whole issue out on all angles - THANK YOU NEER, for the update because an update is better than none at all. 


But like Benanderson and lolox said- it seems a little fishy.


lolox said:


> I'm an IT professional working on one of the  largest sites in the country I live in. We also use MySQL and PHP for  our services. The way FA has handled this issue is completely foreign to  me. There's no reason why it should take this long. The way the problem  has been described makes no sense, as benanderson already pointed  out.


I mean- everyone's getting all mad about these IT professionals speaking up, and they themselves know nothing of coding/servers etc (like myself) I just don't think anyone should open their mouths at all unless they know what they're talking about/getting themselves into.

As for:


Strive said:


> PEOPLE ARE STILL ANGRY AND ATTACKING NEER AND THE CODERS!
> For the artists, take this time to finish the commissions "You already have"
> That way when FA comes back up you'll be able to take on more and not feel so clustered in what you owe.
> For people just viewing for the art "Honestly try other sites, always have a backup plan and...enjoy the internet for everything else not just furry porn"


and


Nanakisan said:


> Given all the BS you guys have been going  through lately. I feel a break is needed and i'm dead certain the  community can live without FA for awhile longer. Just keep relaxed and  do your jobs. Its all we ask for Neer and the admin team.



heres a quote from *AmaruKaze* on another thread that I find EXTREMELY relevant.
""Several coders and interested people have several times offered helping  the issues the poorly coded mainframe of furaffinity poses. Each of  those attempts have been shut down or neglected by the administration.  Further more there are people actually living off the art they produce  and therefore downtime equals no income or less income for them.

Additionally for the "Free to use so do not whine" if any other free to  use site is down, which offers a commerical aspect e.g. Ebay or Amazon.  The people offering the website presence are in trouble for auctions not  done etc. same does happen here and therefore we should a little more  considerate on that topic than "Wow people, get your porn of e621.net  then".

Maybe but that would require common sense and actually an administration  and a userbase that cares. Both are to the sad part of this story, not  existing. The few who do care about FA and reforming/recoding it are  always turned away by the administration so if one declines free help  and fails to provide his service due to that, a bit of "bitching" over  incompetence is i think well justifiable.""

so. now. how about everyone defending FA and Neer and the coders realize something very important right now:
YES they are working hard. YES we miss FA, BUT there are some weird things going on with the tech side of FA that have been going on for years.
AND: open your eyes to what other people use FA for. Its not just for furries to get off to or hang with their "BFFs". Some of us pay for ads and rely on auctions etc for income and so thats why everyone's upset. Im sure people are also upset because they can't get porn and chat with their friends. But there are other views on the situation that you're not considering.


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## ThreeDawg (Dec 12, 2013)

MonsterRoo said:


> Obviously everyone is frustrated and taking this whole issue out on all angles - THANK YOU NEER, for the update because an update is better than none at all.
> 
> 
> But like Benanderson and lolox said- it seems a little fishy.
> ...



I don't +This every post, but when I do....


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## Deleted member 82554 (Dec 12, 2013)

Dragoncat said:


> What else is this forum for? >_>



Oh I dunno: http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa...-(FAF-Adventures-3-Revolutions)-(READ-THE-OP)

That should get you a few laughs.


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## maxgoof (Dec 12, 2013)

As a side note (or is it really a side note?) It has now been 19 hours since an update about progress has been given.

Regarding whether patrons are "the boss" or not, FA would not exist without them, and it's purpose is for them. I don't expect a site that works perfectly all the time. I would simply hope that whoever runs it lets the patrons know what is going on and to be honest about it. FA has gotten better in this regard (especially with planned downtime. Kudos to whoever is doing the time estimates for those. It's improved greatly.) but could still stand improvement.

That said, can we get an update in the next few hours? Kthxbye.


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## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

I agree with what you're saying and I know people use FA as their sole thing of income.
But since this is happening, might as well make the best out of it?
All I was saying was that this is the perfect chance for people to finish a few of their commissions considering I know a whole list of people that are now swamped with commissions and not enough time to do them (I don't know about you but I spend more time browsing FA and chatting than I do actually arting so that's what I mean about people being so swamped that it's become so difficult)

And idk...like...having a huge list of commissions and taking on even more...it's like...so many artist have done this and a few of them got suspended cause of it B:

But you're right.
Also I really like your character and the picture in your sig, I was looking at it the whole time I was typing this haha


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## MonsterRoo (Dec 12, 2013)

Strive said:


> I agree with what you're saying and I know people use FA as their sole thing of income.
> But since this is happening, might as well make the best out of it?
> All I was saying was that this is the perfect chance for people to finish a few of their commissions considering I know a whole list of people that are now swamped with commissions and not enough time to do them (I don't know about you but I spend more time browsing FA and chatting than I do actually arting so that's what I mean about people being so swamped that it's become so difficult)
> 
> ...



No worries at all! I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything- I've just seen everyone saying stuff like "well it doesnt REALLY matter if FA is down" so I want to make sure everyone sees the bigger picture for viewers and artists alike.

I agree that everyone should make the best of it and I, myself am doing as you said, taking the time to catch up. But I'm mostly frustrated because of auction timing and feeling bad for other artists who depend on daily streaming/auctions/etc.

and oh 83c thank you <3


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## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

@strive I've been doing exactly that, sketching out most of my commissions. But unfortunately I relied on FA for communication (I'm not the only artist that does this). All of my work needs to be confirmed by the commissioner before I can continue, so finishing my list is impossible at this point. From now on, I'll be taking precautions for communication with my commissioners. I can't have this happen again. I've only had this happen once before, and it lasted a day and a half. Back then I didn't depend on FA as much as I do now. Lesson learned, I guess.


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## JackCheetah (Dec 12, 2013)

Maybe if some users did not have 10,000.... 30,000 plus messages from submissions and journals then when the site goes down and things like this happen it would take less to resolve??


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## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

teil said:


> @strive I've been doing exactly that, sketching out most of my commissions. But unfortunately I relied on FA for communication (I'm not the only artist that does this). All of my work needs to be confirmed by the commissioner before I can continue, so finishing my list is impossible at this point. From now on, I'll be taking precautions for communication with my commissioners. I can't have this happen again. I've only had this happen once before, and it lasted a day and a half. Back then I didn't depend on FA as much as I do now. Lesson learned, I guess.


Yes I agree FA really helps with communication.
But I've seen now that many have started giving emails to their commissioners, also theres this amazing website that I'm currently using to sort my commissions and write the most information on them.

http://socksthefox.net/comlist/   (Same site that Socksthefox (im guessing thats why this website is called after her) that shes using to help Falvie which is helping her alot)

Honestly it's an amazing site and is sooooooooo helpfull in organization.

You can write all the information down in the note part and also place all the links  you need in there for easy access not to mention keeping track of the usernames. You can also ask your commissioners for their email in case of emergency such as when FA goes through more database errors.
I'm lucky that 3/4 of my commissioners I have on Skype so it's fairly easy for me to get things done. It's all about planning ahead, I know FA goes through alot of rough patches so me and other artists have taken precautions and added our emails in ways to contact us.


BTW who made your icon, I'm crying at the sobing...I love sobing icons (as you can tell from mine)


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## Dragoncat (Dec 12, 2013)

teil said:


> @strive I've been doing exactly that, sketching out most of my commissions. But unfortunately I relied on FA for communication (I'm not the only artist that does this). All of my work needs to be confirmed by the commissioner before I can continue, so finishing my list is impossible at this point. From now on, I'll be taking precautions for communication with my commissioners. I can't have this happen again. I've only had this happen once before, and it lasted a day and a half. Back then I didn't depend on FA as much as I do now. Lesson learned, I guess.



That's why I've moved my communication to email >:
Besides the note system being so unorganized, it saves the hassle of the long down times and it also lets the commissioners talk to you too.


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## Kalmor (Dec 12, 2013)

Yeah, it's best not to use FA as your only medium of communication, or any single site really because problems like this happen. Rarely does your email go down.


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## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

MonsterRoo said:


> No worries at all! I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything- I've just seen everyone saying stuff like "well it doesnt REALLY matter if FA is down" so I want to make sure everyone sees the bigger picture for viewers and artists alike.
> 
> I agree that everyone should make the best of it and I, myself am doing as you said, taking the time to catch up. But I'm mostly frustrated because of auction timing and feeling bad for other artists who depend on daily streaming/auctions/etc.
> 
> and oh 83c thank you <3



Oh I know it matters, I infact miss it, but I'm not letting that bring me down in the things I need to do.

I understand the frustration with auctions, trust me I know alot who depend on the auctions to help with rent, which is why this must be so frustrating for everyone and them especially.

But I just hope that FA can come up and running once more so that people can atleast try to salvage their auctions in time and still get high enough bids on them before it ends.
Some can't extend it for rent purposes, but...nothing really the users or coders can do except wait and hope the coders can work faster and resolve the issue.


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## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

Strive said:


> Yes I agree FA really helps with communication.
> But I've seen now that many have started giving emails to their commissioners, also theres this amazing website that I'm currently using to sort my commissions and write the most information on them.
> 
> http://socksthefox.net/comlist/   (Same site that Socksthefox (im guessing thats why this website is called after her) that shes using to help Falvie which is helping her alot)
> ...



I recently moved to google docs, though Ive heard some people have had a hard time with it. I've tested it a bit and haven't had any troubles yet, but we'll see. I registered for that site though, thanks for pointing it out! : 3 I'll definitely try it out and see how it goes. 

Yeah, from now on, no more relying on FA for communication. Which sucks because it WORKS for me, until the site goes poof. 
I'm not mad at the site for going down like a lot of people are. Things happen. It's just.... I need it. So I'm hopeful things get fixed soon. 

I'll also be starting a skype for commissioners to contact me. I'll sign in for an hour or so a day, or sign in to contact a commissioner if FA does go down. But at the same time, I'll take their contact emails as well. Just. What you said. PREPARATION. lol

ANNNNND oh gosh. Who did my icon. oh gosh oh gosh. UHMM. 
OH YES. (Thank god I linked her on my sona page or I would have forgotten haha!)
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/sheeps


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## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Yeah, it's best not to use FA as your only medium of communication, or any single site really because problems like this happen. Rarely does your email go down.



Definitely. Lesson learned. : )


----------



## Dragoncat (Dec 12, 2013)

teil said:


> I recently moved to google docs, though Ive heard some people have had a hard time with it. I've tested it a bit and haven't had any troubles yet, but we'll see. I registered for that site though, thanks for pointing it out! : 3 I'll definitely try it out and see how it goes.
> 
> Yeah, from now on, no more relying on FA for communication. Which sucks because it WORKS for me, until the site goes poof.
> I'm not mad at the site for going down like a lot of people are. Things happen. It's just.... I need it. So I'm hopeful things get fixed soon.
> ...



Ive seen https://trello.com/ pop up now and then for public to-do lists ;oo
I use it to organize a few things visually. Google docs with with collecting info, but I feel the spreedsheet can get messy with lots of entries


----------



## Calemeyr (Dec 12, 2013)

I feel bad for Dragoneer. He has to deal with people who think "NEER=FA", just like "president=government." I'm sure he's just as frustrated with this stuff, too. If I had to guess, I'd say Yak doesn't want other people coding for...um...reasons, and Neer is unwilling or unable to fire him. I'd assume the latter. It's possible Yak doesn't document his code completely. That's the ages-old industry method of job security (though in recent years it hasn't worked as well...).


----------



## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

Dragoncat said:


> That's why I've moved my communication to email >:
> Besides the note system being so unorganized, it saves the hassle of the long down times and it also lets the commissioners talk to you too.



Yeah, I've thought about it over the last few months about making a skype for commissions. Sign in when I need to get ahold of someone quickly.


----------



## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

Dragoncat said:


> Ive seen https://trello.com/ pop up now and then for public to-do lists ;oo
> I use it to organize a few things visually. Google docs with with collecting info, but I feel the spreedsheet can get messy with lots of entries




Thanks! Definitely bookmarked. I'll take anything that will help for the future. Docs has helped SIGNIFICANTLY with organization of my todo list. Instead of my list being tossed together on tumblr or an FA journal. Feels more professional too. : 3


----------



## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

teil said:


> I recently moved to google docs, though Ive heard some people have had a hard time with it. I've tested it a bit and haven't had any troubles yet, but we'll see. I registered for that site though, thanks for pointing it out! : 3 I'll definitely try it out and see how it goes.
> 
> Yeah, from now on, no more relying on FA for communication. Which sucks because it WORKS for me, until the site goes poof.
> I'm not mad at the site for going down like a lot of people are. Things happen. It's just.... I need it. So I'm hopeful things get fixed soon.
> ...


I honestly tried google docs but I was all...
"what's...going on...so confusssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed hahaha"

But yah I find that site golden. I was using word documents to organized before I stumbled on that site haha
so let's just say I'm way more happy with it and the organization.

mmhmm like you can get the gist of what you need from FA notes, but as long as you take all the details you need and put it in a safe spot for later usage then that's all that really needs to be done to be safe.

And mmhmm that's a good idea, preparation and organization is key in order to suceed.

aosiudhgaosd thank you so much, I bookmarked their page, such cute art /sobs


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## maxgoof (Dec 12, 2013)

JackCheetah said:


> Maybe if some users did not have 10,000.... 30,000 plus messages from submissions and journals then when the site goes down and things like this happen it would take less to resolve??



A fairly simple fix would end this: a sunset on notifications. After a month, they go away, read or unread. Same with the note system, only I would make it a year for that. If you want to hang onto it for other reasons, I would save it on your own computer, not FAs.


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## Socks the Fox (Dec 12, 2013)

Strive said:


> Yes I agree FA really helps with communication.
> But I've seen now that many have started giving emails to their commissioners, also theres this amazing website that I'm currently using to sort my commissions and write the most information on them.
> 
> http://socksthefox.net/comlist/   (Same site that Socksthefox (im guessing thats why this website is called after her) that shes using to help Falvie which is helping her alot)



Oh god no please use the new one http://tranquilart.net it's rebuilt from scratch and has a few more features. I only opened it yesterday so I was getting ready to update that one to put a big banner at the top, I shouldn't have put that off X3


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## maxgoof (Dec 12, 2013)

Strive said:


> I honestly tried google docs but I was all...
> "what's...going on...so confusssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed hahaha"



I use Google Drive for writing out the scripts for The Beach Bears, since I collaborate with others on it. Hardest part of the document writer is keeping track of where your cursor is.

Haven't tried much else.


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## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

Socks the Fox said:


> Oh god no please use the new one http://tranquilart.net it's rebuilt from scratch and has a few more features. I only opened it yesterday so I was getting ready to update that one to put a big banner at the top, I shouldn't have put that off X3


haha when i saw you replied to me I was all o____o
but alright ill take a look at the newer site. will the old one still be up...cause I honestly really loveeeeeeeeeee the simplicity of it all. and th enew one the purple background is kind of really obnoxious xDDD


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> A fairly simple fix would end this: a sunset on notifications. After a month, they go away, read or unread. Same with the note system, only I would make it a year for that. If you want to hang onto it for other reasons, I would save it on your own computer, not FAs.



That wouldn't actually fix anything.
Yeah it'd purge unused records from the database but all you're doing is asking the system to perform quite a lofty task and use more resources.
For the sake of data integrity it _may_ be good thing? But the problem right now is efficiency, not integrity.


----------



## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

Strive said:


> I honestly tried google docs but I was all...
> "what's...going on...so confusssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed hahaha"
> 
> But yah I find that site golden. I was using word documents to organized before I stumbled on that site haha
> ...



It is definitely confusing at first! haha! I'm still not quite sure of it all, so I'll take a look at other options. I'm open to anything at this point. xD

no problema! I love that icon so much. xD


----------



## Socks the Fox (Dec 12, 2013)

Strive said:


> haha when i saw you replied to me I was all o____o
> but alright ill take a look at the newer site. will the old one still be up...cause I honestly really loveeeeeeeeeee the simplicity of it all. and th enew one the purple background is kind of really obnoxious xDDD



For a while. We're working on redoing the design, simplifying a bunch of overly-complicated things and making it look nice (I literally just slapped some new colors on the core software's default theme to get it up and testing).

I still need to do a lot of optimization on the site, but I know it can handle having some 450,000 users in the database (though I don't know how it handles being under load). Next up is a similar level of fake commissions. It's one nice thing about having a private testing ground, I can load it with a crapton of fake data to load things down and see how the system handles it without screwing with production.


----------



## rednec0 (Dec 12, 2013)

FireFoxinc said:


> Replacing the 15k drives with SSDs would also help with the issue.



That would be a bad idea overall. I can understand SSDs for the core of the site, but as for storage... yeah bad things will happen.



Haystack said:


> y'know, all these comments bashing on Yak might well be considered disallowable content.
> the forum rules specifically forbid attacks on FA staff.



Nice backseat-modding there, buddy. Last I checked we're allowed to criticize the staff without going into blatant attack mode.



Calemeyr said:


> I feel bad for Dragoneer. He has to deal with  people who think "NEER=FA", just like "president=government." I'm sure  he's just as frustrated with this stuff, too. If I had to guess, I'd say  Yak doesn't want other people coding for...um...reasons, and Neer is  unwilling or unable to fire him. I'd assume the latter. It's possible  Yak doesn't document his code completely. That's the ages-old industry  method of job security (though in recent years it hasn't worked as  well...).



That is pretty much describing 'Neer being between a rock and a hard place. From what I've been able to gather from the collective posts on Yak is that he didn't let the then-hired staff to look at or touch the code. This of course prevented them from doing their jobs and deciding to leave later on. Also still using almost 20-year-old site coding is probably the biggest mistake Yak has done, and him refusing to actually update it and instead do little patches here and there is just stupid. I'd go on to use harsher language, but I'd rather not the mods give me the B& Hammer.

In the meantime since there was mention of tribbles in the system, have a youtube video with "The Trouble With Tribbles" and "Trials And Tribbleations" accurately combined.


----------



## Strive (Dec 12, 2013)

Socks the Fox said:


> For a while. We're working on redoing the design, simplifying a bunch of overly-complicated things and making it look nice (I literally just slapped some new colors on the core software's default theme to get it up and testing).
> 
> I still need to do a lot of optimization on the site, but I know it can handle having some 450,000 users in the database (though I don't know how it handles being under load). Next up is a similar level of fake commissions. It's one nice thing about having a private testing ground, I can load it with a crapton of fake data to load things down and see how the system handles it without screwing with production.


haha well then ^^
well when it's properly up and running and easier to use (I registered but idk what to do ahha) just..gimme a shout out on there haha


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

So... its been close to 24 hours and still no update? Is it still at 53% ?


This is rather ridiculous. I was trying to be patient at first, but this is just ridiculous. There is no other word.


----------



## BlitheDragon (Dec 12, 2013)

I have to say, I'd like an update as well. I think 24 hours is a more than reasonable time to wait for another update.


----------



## Verin Asper (Dec 12, 2013)

Take as long as you want neer,
Better to get the job fucking done right, than rushed and we back to square one...
Square 6 is better than square 1, and if it takes quite a while to make sure we land on square 6 then so be it.

People should already been use to stuff like this, its why many artist have made sure their business isnt interrupted by being on other sites, if not on tumblr or their own website.


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## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> Take as long as you want neer,
> Better to get the job fucking done right, than rushed and we back to square one...
> Square 6 is better than square 1, and if it takes quite a while to make sure we land on square 6 then so be it.
> 
> People should already been use to stuff like this, its why many artist have made sure their business isnt interrupted by being on other sites, if not on tumblr or their own website.






"done right?"  LOL. 


It hasn't been "done right" before, and it isn't being "done right" now. The site CONTINUES to have problems and people who RELY ON THE SITE FOR INCOME are the ones who lose the most. 


Just because we are "used to it" doesn't make it right. A person can be used to being screwed, that doesn't make it hurt less.


----------



## kyraeus (Dec 12, 2013)

Having been around for a.. well, a longer time than I'd like to admit, I'll toss two cents in the ring. 

This ABSOLUTELY hasn't been a first time issue.  Yes, the site seems to have problems pretty regularly.  Point of fact, tossing hardware at it HASN'T solved the problem.  Any issues I might have with Dragoneer or crew aside, my own personal faith in the crew running the ship was demolished several servers ago with a specific incident.

Offhand I don't even remember WHICH funding drive it was or which particular time this happened, but during one of the downtimes, a funding drive was put up asking FA users for donations to fund a new server.  This was done, I seem to recall that originally the choice of hardware was to be an HP Proliant (I might be off on model, but it VERY SPECIFICALLY was an HP model server).  At the time, myself (running a sales territory for a US-based distributor of PC and server hardware/software), and a more operational server-minded friend of mine, looked at the proposal, noted a couple of points that would have been disastrous: Not least of which was that at the time, HP servers used a proprietary hard drive cage that would cost at BEST several hundred dollars extra.

Not only did we take pains to hop on irc and contact the admins about this fact, but in fact accessed my own work contacts to do a theoretical build for an intel blade server unit for a similar price.  We ended up under-budget, as I recall with 3 server blades filled instead of the two servers they wanted to buy, and space for 2 or 3 more in the blade server housing.  

The fun part was that not more than two days later after turning our proposal down on the basis that 'the people involved with working on the server are more familiar with HP hardware' (...ummm.. what?  What kind of argument is that even?  When you work on a project, you work on whatever the hell hardware you're told), after the HP Hardware was purchased, it had to be returned...  Yeaaaaah.  We knew EXACTLY why and what happened with that.  And told them.  I don't expect FA Admin staff to take the word of just any old random person on here, but when you have a technical resource, you take advantage of it.  At the LEAST, someone should have mentioned that little snag to Yak/Neer/etc, and had them look into it BEFORE the purchase.

Take all the above with a grain of salt, as my tired old memory is short on detail, but the gist is, I lost most of my faith in their ability to troubleshoot and determine fixes after this.  And THAT problem was also more software than hardware.  I really hope Dragoneer realizes this at some point and either tells his coders to get on this, or sadly, gets someone new in there to take a crack at a recurring issue.  Suggestions have been made here that would bear looking into at the VERY least.  Even if they don't completely FIX the problem, at least it's an option, and a little common kindness and a 'We're going to take that under consideration and take a look at exactly that' would not be misplaced here.


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## FireFoxinc (Dec 12, 2013)

rednec0 said:


> That would be a bad idea overall. I can understand SSDs for the core of the site, but as for storage... yeah bad things will happen.



For the sql box not the file storage.


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## Kaeko (Dec 12, 2013)

Yeah agreed. It hasn't been the first time.  We just want to be updated as much as the mods get updated.


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## kyraeus (Dec 12, 2013)

Wait, you're assuming the mods actually GET updated? *snort* ;p


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 12, 2013)

If you can't fix it, throw more hardware at it.

Works every time, right guys?


----------



## Shane_Rufus (Dec 12, 2013)

Here's my big question.

Okay, let's say that what they say is true, right on its face. The database somehow got clogged(?) and it needed to purge all the backed up requests or whatever. So solution #1 was to just set everything read-only and let it finish. But that was taking too long so now they're migrating servers and updating versions. Great. Let's say that it fixes the problem.

What's going on to stop it from happening again? Nothing about any of this suggests that the admins have a clue WHY anything happened or that they're doing any alterations to the code in order to make sure in a few days/weeks/months it doesn't grind to a halt again. Buying a load of SSDs or new hardware is treating a symptom. It's like if your house keeps burning down so you buy more and more expensive flame-retardant materials to line the walls with: okay that'll HOPEFULLY keep it from burning to the ground again, but maybe you oughta look at what's causing all the damn fires to begin with.

If all we cared about was porn, by lord there are scads of sites that are better at it. It's that FA is basically the Facebook of the furry world (hey, another free site that somehow manages to keep its shit together). Is it wrecking my life that it's down? Not by a longshot. I'm actually more annoyed at watching the handling of it than the actual downtime. If the admins/devs came out and said "okay look, the code is BAD, and it's gonna take a week of us getting together and redoing it from scratch, so come back next Thursday" I'd go "cool, see you then." FA could go down entirely and I personally would just migrate elsewhere. I like the site, but it's not critical for my survival by any means. However, watching the devs and admins flail around making up excuses and proposing solutions that don't actually seem like they'll help in any long term sense while guys like BenAnderson are offering legitimate help... well it makes me laugh.

Just throwing in my two cents, not really stressing over it.


----------



## Etiainen (Dec 12, 2013)

Shane_Rufus said:


> What's going on to stop it from happening again?



They claimed to have fixed the source of the problem, just not the problem it created.


----------



## Kaeko (Dec 12, 2013)

kyraeus said:


> Wait, you're assuming the mods actually GET updated? *snort* ;p



Hey as some of them said and updated us separately,  I would assume so


----------



## Verin Asper (Dec 12, 2013)

seaweed said:


> "done right?"  LOL.
> 
> 
> It hasn't been "done right" before, and it isn't being "done right" now. The site CONTINUES to have problems and people who RELY ON THE SITE FOR INCOME are the ones who lose the most.
> ...


People who RELY on this site for income are people who then dont really know how to run a business then...
Why do you think FA is in this situation of constantly having to rush shit, they know "if we dont get this site up fast enough, people gonna bitch about losing money"

In the end FA is a marketplace, but only idiots have ONE DAMN STORE which can only be located in THAT marketplace. This what led to many artist either having their own site (may it be actually a site or how some as of lately been taking commissions thru Tumblr), and branching out to other areas that just incase (Weasyl, IB, and SF.

also to your analogy
"A person can be used to being screwed, they go through the process of making sure it hurt less"


----------



## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

Koda said:


> Not saying this is what happened here, but some database engines have a thing called a transaction log, which basically logs everything that goes on in a db server in case there is a need to rollback or recover from something bad. It is quite possible that grew insanely large and the db software just needs time to churn through it to get back to a consistent state.


And in those databases, the only times you can't recover from a crash or error is if the world really IS ending.

Another big thing about database engines is concurrency control:  If you have to do a sequence of several edits (insert/update/delete) and queries (select) based on those results for one user, you have to ensure that another user who might be online at the same time (of which FA has thousands) doesn't accidentally see the results of those intermediate steps.  (In practice there's relatively little harm done if they do, but in concept, it's just plain better avoided.)  And on FA, one of the biggest transactions you can make is to file a new submission (because FA has to notify potentially hundreds or thousands of watchers; contrast that posting a new comment sends at most two notifications).



FireFoxinc said:


> whatever configuration the server is running just can not keep up with the raw I/O load.


The problem is more that it's spilling out of active memory into I/O *at all*.  Once it starts, it causes a tailspin of performance degradation.




nuzzcat said:


> Actually, based on this screenshot I just took, and my experience as a software engineer, I can tell you that I'm 90% sure that caching is not used enough on this site.
> http://ft.trillian.im/30a23cd835c1a6834bcb6c7b2740649b0f2aaf28/6lNZGXdjplBop1qfGJFlPzPeH9LZx.jpg
> 
> This was taken from the front homepage of furaffinity.net.  The page contains "Recent Artwork" "Recent Photos" etc, which appears the same for *all* users.  But for each user that goes to the homepage, the same exact SQL queries are executed.


Good point.  Technically there would only be 3 different queries (G/SFW, GM, GMA) needing to execute for the homepage bit.  Obviously, once you implement a cache you have a lot of work to do keeping the cache in sync with reality, but that's par for the course ... even if FA mainpage has to be recached 60 times a minute, that's still preferable to running the exact same queries 100 times a minute.



> This is why you need good coders.  I applied to become an admin earlier but I did not hear anything back.


IIRC last we ever heard on the matter FA does not have a granular permissions system, you are either a regular user or a full admin (with everything from editing picture keywords/ratings to issuing bans).  Heck, even *HF* did better than that....



maxgoof said:


> A fairly simple fix would end this: a sunset on notifications. After a month, they go away, read or unread. Same with the note system, only I would make it a year for that. If you want to hang onto it for other reasons, I would save it on your own computer, not FAs.


That is a separate topic, of course.  Nobody will see it in here over the sound of all the downtime kerfluffle.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> People who RELY on this site for income are people who then dont really know how to run a business then...
> Why do you think FA is in this situation of constantly having to rush shit, they know "if we dont get this site up fast enough, people gonna bitch about losing money"
> 
> In the end FA is a marketplace, but only idiots have ONE DAMN STORE which can only be located in THAT marketplace. This what led to many artist either having their own site (may it be actually a site or how some as of lately been taking commissions thru Tumblr), and branching out to other areas that just incase (Weasyl, IB, and SF.
> ...





For a lot of people,  it isn't a business, but something that is done to supplement an income.. That doesn't meant that they don't rely on it.  They don't have money they can throw at hosting and designing websites and such and so much rely on places like FA to help. 

The reason FA is in this situation is not because people are bitching, it is because they OBVIOUSLY don;t know how to fix the issues they are having because they happen OVER AND OVER AND OVER. 

*THAT* is why people are bitching  because it happens ALL THE TIME. 


The "idiots" who use FA will only get a fraction of the people  they would if they use Weasyl, IB, and SF. They are tiny when compared to the amount of users that FA has.  So it is rather unfair to tell them to go there  when they will get less traffic just because FA doesn't know how to stay stable.


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

Neer has got to stop being so trusting to yak. If I were Neer this whole winter of discontent would have prompted me to grab outside help to investigate what keeps causing crashes. If I'm being told over and over again that the hardware is the issue for every crash I would start getting suspicious, since comparatively, hiring outside consultants to see if _they_ can find any problems is way cheaper than just throwing hardware around once a hiccup happens.

It's comparable to going to see a mechanic when your car won't start instead of just going to a dealership to buy a new car.


----------



## Rufus (Dec 12, 2013)

Well surely everyone else has other things to do, other than bitch one furry site is down?
Just be patient, there is a lot to copy to the new server.
Why not go outside, there's a world out there and do other things? 
 Plus there's a mass of other furry sites to visit on the internet if you have to stay in. :/


----------



## Verin Asper (Dec 12, 2013)

seaweed said:


> For a lot of people,  it isn't a business, but something that is done to supplement an income.. That doesn't meant that they don't rely on it.  They don't have money they can throw at hosting and designing websites and such and so much rely on places like FA to help.
> 
> The reason FA is in this situation is not because people are bitching, it is because they OBVIOUSLY don;t know how to fix the issues they are having because they happen OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
> 
> ...


To which again
You dont have just one damn store
When this site is down people do go elsewhere, everyone goes elsewhere

and tell me, when people start bitching that the site is down, what happens? When you have people to in a sense bring the site back up fast? When you rush people they start cutting corners to give what you want.
We long since pass that point that rushing this is all FA team knows
Yes we have people offering to help but often time to speed up things while few is for ironing out thing which takes time.
So I'm gonna be the person to tell FA "take your damn time" I know they gonna screw up, but again its better to be at square 6, than square 1

P.S., not even IB or SF is stable, they just have a tech team better than our own but they still have their problems. I dont talk about Weasyl cause not many people care for it any more.
Addon: Even e621 goes down damn it


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

Just noticed that the number has been bumped up to 86%. Functionality may return before midnight if my projection is correct, but I really hope that once the site is back to full functionality, the staff focus very hard on preventing another crash (and subsequent shitstorm).


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

Rufus said:


> Well surely everyone else has other things to do, other than bitch one furry site is down?
> Just be patient, there is a lot to copy to the new server.
> Why not go outside, there's a world out there and do other things?
> Plus there's a mass of other furry sites to visit on the internet if you have to stay in. :/





*sigh*

Way to miss the point. 


The point isn't that there are other things to do, there are. You make it sound like people spend ALL their time on FA, which is obviously not the point- at least not for the vast majority of FA users. 


The point is that this *KEEPS HAPPENING* and we want to know why, and some people do use FA for commissions and trades and such, and not having it means that all of that grinds to a screeching halt. 


Yes, there are other furry art sites out there, but they have a fraction of the users and traffic that FA has.


We are made because we are not getting ANY updates  (Been over 24 hours now) and it *WILL* happen again, its just a matter of time.


----------



## idejtauren (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Just noticed that the number has been bumped up to 86%. Functionality may return before midnight if my projection is correct, but I really hope that once the site is back to full functionality, the staff focus very hard on preventing another crash (and subsequent shitstorm).



Especially with the likely flood that is to happen when the site comes out of Read Only.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> To which again
> You dont have just one damn store
> When this site is down people do go elsewhere, everyone goes elsewhere
> 
> ...






I already spoke to the "not having one damn store" issue.. Even if someone has a presence on the other furry sites, they don't have a fraction of the traffic  and users that FA has, and not everyone can afford to host and design a website, especially when then income they would normally get from traffic in places like FA is gone so often. 
You try to make it simple, like just go elsewhere, but it isn't that simple, the world is a lot more complicated than that. 

If you call the amount of times it is down and the time that is it is down "rushing it back", then you have a SEVERELY warped sense of time. 

If Fur Affinity said "Hey, we are going to be down for a week starting in 3 weeks so we can update the software" or whatever, and gave a warning where people would have time to get their commissions and stuff in order, and it FIXED the problems so it was more stable, then you will see the *VAST MAJORITY* of FA users would be all for it. Will a few bitch? yeah, cant please all the people all the time.  But that is better than going down at random times for random amounts of time and when it comes back it may work for a while and it may not.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Just noticed that the number has been bumped up to 86%. Functionality may return before midnight if my projection is correct, but I really hope that once the site is back to full functionality, the staff focus very hard on preventing another crash (and subsequent shitstorm).





I doubt that it will be ready the moment that number gets to 100%, whenever that is. I doubt it will be up before Friday if we are lucky.


----------



## MonsterRoo (Dec 12, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> People who RELY on this site for income are people who then dont really know how to run a business then...
> Why do you think FA is in this situation of constantly having to rush shit, they know "if we dont get this site up fast enough, people gonna bitch about losing money"
> 
> In the end FA is a marketplace, but only idiots have ONE DAMN STORE which can only be located in THAT marketplace. This what led to many artist either having their own site (may it be actually a site or how some as of lately been taking commissions thru Tumblr), and branching out to other areas that just incase (Weasyl, IB, and SF.



This is just idiotic, itself. I am a professional illustrator outside of furaffinity, so I branch out to more websites than just FA. I have other commissions and things to work on and I don't rely fully on just commissions from this website. But that doesn't mean I dont have things specifically on FA that I need to do which includes time sensitive projects and checking with users who dont have messaging info posted and letting them approve sketches etc. Furaffinity is the only furry site I work through though because weasyl, Inkbunny, sofurry etc are smaller communities and it seems that every furry relates back to having an FA account- therefore its easier to organize my furry commissions and use 1 website (1 website for just furry art). You can't really expect people to have failsafe other accounts just in case the website they prefer is down. I agree that it is smart, but you can't say everyone who doesn't is an 'idiot' because frankly, I have too many other websites to keep up with to start from scratch with followers and commission lists on another furry site.

Once again to quote *AmaruKaze* on another thread :
"if any other free to   use site is down, which offers a commerical aspect e.g. Ebay or Amazon.   The people offering the website presence are in trouble for auctions  not  done etc. same does happen here and therefore we should a little  more  considerate on that topic"
IT IS IMPORTANT because of auctions. Cmon guys. THINK about time sensitive commissions like auctions, streams, etc.

Its ridiculous how many of these comments are people flipping out about their own views with little to no consideration for what other people might feel. This is a community not a site specified for only specific groups of artists or people outside of the general theme of 'furry art'. Calling people 'idiots' or 'stupid' for the way THEY run THEIR art commissions is not only useless but disrespectful and quite frankly, stupid itself. Everyones going to run their business the way they want and the whole point is that they shouldnt have to do it a specific way because they can't rely on the site they prefer.


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Just noticed that the number has been bumped up to 86%. Functionality may return before midnight if my projection is correct, but I really hope that once the site is back to full functionality, the staff focus very hard on preventing another crash (and subsequent shitstorm).



I'm getting about 1am but I have no idea when they "last checked it" yesterday for the 53%...I'm going by the posts in the site status forum.


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## kyraeus (Dec 12, 2013)

Additionally, I would add for others who are coming here to say people are 'idiotic' for trusting one site:  'So... it's NOT Dragoneer and company's responsibility as site admins to ensure AS CLOSE TO' 100% uptime as is feasibly possible?'  Y'know.. like any other admin out there? 

See, it's not ABOUT 'how stupid x or y user is for trusting FA to be up'.  It's about actually having a site here that ISN'T down half the time, that we CAN rely upon, that people don't HAVE to be concerned about downtime and losing money or business.  It's really not about how we should 'stop looking at furry porn', or how we should 'just go to another site like e621'.  That's kinda missing the point.

We're all sitting here because a site WE WANT TO USE is down.  So why in HELL should we go to someplace else?  The key point is that as a community, we want FA to run and run PROPERLY.  A lot of people have come here and made suggestions, some willing to donate their time to help put things in order.  Because basically, this repeated downtime issue is basically a load of bull and is not being addressed.  Most of us can agree on that, if not the causes for it, which we won't 100% absolutely know until someone who DOES tells us about it.

The issues here are a hundredfold, and unfortunately those who are in on the issue aren't really releasing a lot of details.  I don't doubt there's some ass-covering going on, and definitely Dragoneer either didn't fully understand the situation or put things in his own words, which don't make much sense to someone versed in database query programming.  I can even dig why he wouldn't want John Q Person just jumping in on the team, because he doesn't know their credentials, or trust them with the keys to the server..  Frankly I wouldn't either in his position.  That said, a lot of what has been said here regarding having a third party professional troubleshooter coming in and checking things out makes a LOT of sense and is a HELL of a lot cheaper than the alternatives they're considering.  I can hope Dragoneer has the sense to be reading this and that he takes that suggestion, and maybe even hopefully responds in kind.  We're not here to flame.  We're here because we want to see this issue resolved for good, as most of us have for the last half dozen years or so.


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## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm getting about 1am but I have no idea when they "last checked it" yesterday for the 53%...I'm going by the posts in the site status forum.





This is off of the subject, but I love your icon. Im not an eagles fan, but its just neat. 



To your post though, I don't think they are gonna bring it online the moment that hits 100%. I have a feeling they will still have other things they need to do. Of course what they are and how long it will take.. only heaven knows.


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## Verin Asper (Dec 12, 2013)

seaweed said:


> I already spoke to the "not having one damn store" issue.. Even if someone has a presence on the other furry sites, they don't have a fraction of the traffic  and users that FA has, and not everyone can afford to host and design a website, especially when then income they would normally get from traffic in places like FA is gone so often.
> You try to make it simple, like just go elsewhere, but it isn't that simple, the world is a lot more complicated than that.
> 
> If you call the amount of times it is down and the time that is it is down "rushing it back", then you have a SEVERELY warped sense of time.
> ...


And you are missing the point so let me actually simplify it cause I do speak simple if I have to

1.When the "Marketplace" is close, EVERYONE is going elsewhere meaning they are going to OTHER markets that are just like it, not only the customers but also those with "stalls". When ONE marketplace goes down, other marketplaces pick up the traffic, meaning currently while FA is being down, SoFurry and IB is getting traffic to it, I mean even Tumblr I have seen tons of artist going "I'm open for commissions" a lot more often than before. Its like what happens when a road is closed due to repairs, OTHER roads around said road gets more traffic on them...it doesn't just STOP, it doesn't just DISAPPEAR it always goes somewhere else.

2. A person make sure they able to maximize their revenue by branching out, you dont sell your product in just walmart,  you sell your stuff in multiple stores, and/or straight from yourself. If your customer loves your stuff, they will make sure to know where your products are by looking you up, or you telling them.

3. Understand that we were told in advance this was gonna happen. They literally did...to which many people made sure of their followers to know where they can be found elsewhere (this ties in with point 2 of informing your customers where you be also than just walmart)

4. If a person have business with another, they often time make sure that no matter what they can get into contact with others. I had an artist I commissioned emailed me on the progress of the commission due to FA...holy shit thats not a foreign thing really! I mean so many artist actually stop using FA's note system and opt for Email as that have so for proven to be a lot more private and reliable than FA's note system.

5. Yes my sense of time is warped due to my sense of time is set to "just get it done" as I dont have much care of HOW LONG, but more on "Hows progress" as people in this day and age seem to rather want to know how long things will take rather than how far along are we in the progress of things. I'm a patient lil asshole if you cant tell by me rather having FA get the job actually done than putting themselves in a box and hope they meet that deadline and disappoint others.



MonsterRoo said:


> This is just idiotic, itself. I am a professional illustrator outside of furaffinity, so I branch out to more websites than just FA. I have other commissions and things to work on and I don't rely fully on just commissions from this website. But that doesn't mean I dont have things specifically on FA that I need to do which includes time sensitive projects and checking with users who dont have messaging info posted and letting them approve sketches etc. Furaffinity is the only furry site I work through though because weasyl, Inkbunny, sofurry etc are smaller communities and it seems that every furry relates back to having an FA account- therefore its easier to organize my furry commissions and use 1 website (1 website for just furry art). You can't really expect people to have failsafe other accounts just in case the website they prefer is down. I agree that it is smart, but you can't say everyone who doesn't is an 'idiot' because frankly, I have too many other websites to keep up with to start from scratch with followers and commission lists on another furry site.
> 
> Once again to quote *AmaruKaze* on another thread :
> "if any other free to use site is down, which offers a commerical aspect e.g. Ebay or Amazon. The people offering the website presence are in trouble for auctions not done etc. same does happen here and therefore we should a little more considerate on that topic"
> ...


upset Ebay make sure they have a system in place, which they have called the parallel system if something happens to the site, to which if that dont work they actually extend the time of the auctions...which actually gonna happen to auctions here....
Actually when did people stop using third parties for auctions, cause I use to remember people doing that cause they didnt trust FA to be up all the time.


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## Verin Asper (Dec 12, 2013)

hurdur double


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## un-registered (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm not a business advertiser. I'm not an artist. I don't take  commissions. I can live without FA/FAF. Heck, I don't need a computer or  a smart phone, not even a normal "dumb" phone to live. So it really  doesn't bother me if the guys need a little time to bring FA back up to  par.

This is the way I think of it; The owner(s) and everyone who  works on these two websites have done so much for so many, allowing us  to interact with each other in so many ways... I can look past a little  down time. They work hard and are very under appreciated IMHO.

I  just got into the whole "furry fandom" stuff a few months ago. Now that I  know that it's not about CSI or Tyra Banks lol, I'm a lot more  comfortable with helping in any way I can. I'm not an "IT" guy, so I  won't volunteer to help with that. But money goes a long ways.

I've  just started saving up to donate. Sounds stupid, but my method works  (for me, at least). An empty 5-gallon Poland Spring water bottle. Every  time I have some pocket change, I dump it in there. I've tried this and  it yielded enough to pay for FurFright a few weeks ago!

A few  days ago, I got a second bottle and I'm saving up to donate to the  Ferrox. Once it gets to the point of me almost not able to lift it, I'm  going to throw it into my PayPal and donate to FA and/or FAF to keep the  sites up and running. For updates, software, servers, ect.

I  know that it's not required. But it's a really nice thing to do,  considering all the hard work that goes into keeping everything running.  I've noticed that there haven't been too many donations for a while.  Maybe the guys can use the extra moneys to upgrade when they need?

I'd  rather give my money to someone who can use it AND to something that  I'll be able to enjoy all at the same time. In my humble opinion, it's  something that everyone who enjoys either site, should consider doing.  Weather it's a thousand dollars, or ten dollars, it helps!

*Much love and many hugs to everyone reading this,
as well as to all that keep these two sites running!!
*_By the way, thanks for making it compatible with Linux_


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## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

kyraeus said:


> It's about actually having a site here that ISN'T down half the time, that we CAN rely upon, that people don't HAVE to be concerned about downtime and losing money or business.


When was the last time FA went globally down and for how long?  I bet doing some actual math will yield more than just hyperbole.


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## Jotaku (Dec 12, 2013)

Expect a bit of a book here.
I've been following this thread, and previous threads, and the updates, and the opinions and discussions--and now wish to put down my views.

I cannot begin to pretend I know anything about coding.  I can edit my tumblr page /laughs --that's about it!
But, even just being on FA for a few years, I can see a reoccurring theme here with the site crashing.  I've collected tidbits of information along the way, stories, complaints, etc.  And, honestly, there IS a problem here.  There is a huge, multifaceted problem with FA as a whole that goes beyond technical issues.

I understand this site is a hobby to the runners. I understand that it is a free site, that brings them no real profits.  But, the runners MUST understand this site has become a very, very important corner stone to so  many users.  It is income, it is a home, a hub of understanding and peace.  It is very important to so  many people, and as such is MORE than just a simple hobby now.  It is a lifestyle for thousands!  If the runners of FA cannot properly maintain it, it is undeniably necessary for them to accept help, lest they seriously damage a lot of peoples' lives.  Life WILL go on, with or without FA, but that doesn't lessen how important it is to many, many people.  
Personally--I don't need FA to make profit from art.  But then, I have years of experience and build-up, many followers, etc.  But FA, handsdown, is the best site I have ever come across as an artist offering commissions. DA is cheap.  Tumblr is even cheaper!  And other sites are so small, it really just doesn't compare.  If a site were to buildup anew, and reach a point of community LIKE FA, but without the technical problems and issues with staff I would 100% probably jump ship. (Okay, not true. I would still use FA, but chances are I would favor the other place.)
That being said, FA is extremely unique in the community it has built up.  People here actually VALUE art.  You don't see that too  many other places. : /

I have a close friend who HAS used other sites--dA, tumblr, etc--but has only managed to make a living from FA.  No one wants his art anywhere else.  And yeah, you could say tough luck and get a real job, but that is a very dull point and view and argument.  It plays into many others I won't touch here, as they are irrelevant to the topic at hand.  POINT BEING, telling artists to set up shop in other places is a lot easier said than done.  Don't downplay the importance of this topic.

On to the shutdown, the handling of this is, by far, miles more frustrating than the shutdown itself.
I can't touch on what I think the problems are with the coding.  It seems logical that redoing coding, working on the software aspect as opposed to the more, new, better hardware would be the way to go.  But what do I know?  This isn't my area of expertise and I can't really talk about things I don't know.
It IS obvious, though, that this is a reoccurring problem and whichever solutions they have been going with in the past has not been working.  If Neer doesn't know what is going on he NEEDS to.  This is his site, right?  He shouldn't blatantly trust his team at face value just because they tell him something.  If he does know, then why isn't he attempting to really get a fix on this?  Honestly--why don't they accept help from people?  And then there's Yak.  I'm sure everyone would agree that, by refusing help again and again, and with the site constantly failing and glitching, that he is, well, kinda looking more ridiculous than if he would just ask for some assistance. : (
In fact, the entire team is starting to look ridiculous.  I know that running a site of this caliber can't be easy--especially when it's for free.  But then who ever said they had to do it alone???  This just endlessly stumps me.  To allow, what?  --Pride, stubbornness, set ways?  Dictate how you run something so big and important to so many as FA?  It comes off as foolish, half-assed, etc.  THIS is the real reason why so many people complain and are so upset.  It's not because their precious site is down and the runners are stupid, it's because it's happening again and again and despite people honestly wanting to make it better--no one pays them any mind!

In fact, it seems that the only thing that GETS attention, is when users bash them.
Harassment is a foul thing to do, but it's just... depressing when all other voices get ignored.  Which is another aspect to everyone's frustration as well.  The site runners are in an ultimate position of power on FA.  They can literally do whatever they want (within the law of course) and no one can fight it.  Because of that, they need to be ABOVE it all.  It is important that they accept criticism, no matter how harsh it is, or risk forever standing still (which, wow, doesn't that sound kinda like what's going on? A total standstill... )
Because they refuse to connect with their users in a positive light, they bring about MORE harsh words and angry users.
It would just be a million times more helpful to everyone if they gave more information, more updates, gave a good nod to suggestions.  At least CONSIDER their users and their points of views, and desires to help.  The constant ignoring and pushing away is creating a negative connotation.  I don't usually get involved with things like this--just sticking to my little corner of the world--and all I hear about is the bad rep of the team. : (

If the site is getting worse, why not mention it?  How GOOD it would be, to see the staff doing something so simple as 'The site has been slowing down and whiting out often, and we are aware of it.  We are trying to work out the problem and fix it!  Please hold tight, and apologies for any future downtime or troubles!' --that they KNOW it is happening.  That they KNOW it is annoying to everyone.  Just that simple 'yes, we are aware' is worth so much!  Instead the site goes down, and I end up here refreshing away to find out what's up, and I might get a 'Site is down.' message, like, yeah!  I know this!  Give me something to work with, please!

To put it simply, the way the staff handles the site leads me to believe that they don't actually love their site at all.  Where is the desire to make a place truly amazing and keep it truly amazing?  Where is the hope and creativity and drive that initially drove them to create the site?  Now it is stale and broken and lacking in any sort of major update despite years of promises.  It just is really sad, y'know?  I like this place and so many do--but it seems like such an unwanted burden to its staff now. 

*I guess moral of the story and overall opinion:*  This site is very important to a lot of people, and as such the runners should show that they view it just as importantly--or at least understand its importance to others.  Should the staff be unable to properly maintain it, just freaking ask for help!  Get fresh minds, update and upgrade!  If you don't have time, find people who do!  Stop being so standoffish and cold to your userbase.  Open up, give information.  We are forced to completely trust you with this--so please!  Trust us a little, too!  We all want to love you guys for what you give us, but it's hard to keep that love when it appears as though you don't care if we lose it. 8 (


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> 1.When the "Marketplace" is close, EVERYONE is going elsewhere meaning they are going to OTHER markets that are just like it, not only the customers but also those with "stalls". When ONE marketplace goes down, other marketplaces pick up the traffic, meaning currently while FA is being down, SoFurry and IB is getting traffic to it, I mean even Tumblr I have seen tons of artist going "I'm open for commissions" a lot more often than before. Its like what happens when a road is closed due to repairs, OTHER roads around said road gets more traffic on them...it doesn't just STOP, it doesn't just DISAPPEAR it always goes somewhere else.
> 2. A person make sure they able to maximize their revenue by branching out, you dont sell your product in just walmart,  you sell your stuff in multiple stores, and/or straight from yourself. If your customer loves your stuff, they will make sure to know where your products are by looking you up, or you telling them.


This actually points out the issue at the same time. "they're going to other markets", not the same one. Some will go to A, some will go to B, etc. As a business person it's not easy to predict that. Am I saying it's not a bad idea to put your eggs in multiple baskets, no. Am I saying that unplanned downtime is gonna screw you over a little (As some of the market goers will just sit in front of the market gates waiting evangelically for it to reopen while shunning those OTHER markets...), yes.



> 3. Understand that we were told in advance this was gonna happen. They literally did...to which many people made sure of their followers to know where they can be found elsewhere (this ties in with point 2 of informing your customers where you be also than just walmart)


If you were around at the time that is. Considering this wasn't planned. FA went down suddenly, they pushed to bring it back up, it went back down, and here we are. If you were unfortunate enough to not be around (Work/Sleep/Familial Commitments/Volunteer Commitments/Just General 'Not being at the PC') in that time, you had no warning. It just happened.

Yes, it was their fault for not listing "I'm also here", but they can't exactly tend to it always. Once FA went down regardless last night, it was pretty much doomed. You had no access to anything from there on in, and only had to hope that even if you did list other places for yourself, that people actually paid attention. Or even bothered checking your page in the Read-Only/



> 4. If a person have business with another, they often time make sure that no matter what they can get into contact with others. I had an artist I commissioned emailed me on the progress of the commission due to FA...holy shit thats not a foreign thing really! I mean so many artist actually stop using FA's note system and opt for Email as that have so for proven to be a lot more private and reliable than FA's note system.


Yeah great. I agree here. Proper private communication is better. But some people don't exactly want to put their email on their page, so opening commissions may still rely on notes.



> 5. Yes my sense of time is warped due to my sense of time is set to "just get it done" as I dont have much care of HOW LONG, but more on "Hows progress" as people in this day and age seem to rather want to know how long things will take rather than how far along are we in the progress of things. I'm a patient lil asshole if you cant tell by me rather having FA get the job actually done than putting themselves in a box and hope they meet that deadline and disappoint others.


I'd rather they miss the deadline. Keep us informed. And actually *fix* the issue that has clearly been plaguing FA for a long time.

Or at least update it from the last decade. FA's barely changed since the mid to late 2000-2010. That's _not_ a good thing.

As stated by other people. If the staff were forthright and just went "Hey dudes, we're pulling down the server for maintenance on YYYY-MM-DD at HH:MM, unknown length, but here's '24 hours notice'" instead of letting FA get to a point where it keels over and cries to itself on the floor. Most people will be fine.


Stratadrake said:


> When was the last time FA went globally down and for how long?  I bet doing some actual math will yield more than just hyperbole.



It's repeatedly gone done over the past month. This just seemed to be the last nail in that coffin after kicking it in the shins to try and get it working again, and crashing almost moments after going back up last night.


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## Freehaven (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> FA's barely changed since the mid to late 2000-2010. That's _not_ a good thing.



Yeah, I've been an FA user for about seven-and-a-half years, and I've never seen anyone make any major changes to FA despite all the promises of new UIs and new functionality and new (whatever) that have gone on at least since 2010. On any other site, users would likely think of such broken promises as inexcusable.

We, the FA userbase, need to hold FA to a higher standard -- and that means holding 'Neer and Yak to a higher standard than "okay just get it out when you can we trust you". They shouldn't get off scot-free for making big promises and failing to live up to them.


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## Smelge (Dec 12, 2013)

Freehaven said:


> We, the FA userbase, need to hold FA to a higher standard -- and that means holding 'Neer and Yak to a higher standard than "okay just get it out when you can we trust you". They shouldn't get off scot-free for making big promises and failing to live up to them.



Unfortunately, that's kind of tricky. The site is owned by a single person. There's no investors to shuffle leadership over, the site is too big to just plain buy out, even if someone had the urge to waste a large wad of cash.

People can stop donating, but I don't think many do now anyway since the donation system went.

You could write threads about it, or petitions, but as this thread has shown, it takes over a day for the site owner to tell people what is going on, and he rarely actually visits the forums, so it's easy to ignore those threads. I agree that the place needs a shake-up. It needs coders that know what they are doing, and aren't being held back by one person who is reluctant to let anyone else do anything. It needs someone else in a leadership role, because for a site of this size, a single person dealing with advertising, bills and all those other things is fucking dumb. It sometimes takes weeks for ad emails to even be responded to, and only if the person makes a thread about it.

The whole place is run sloppily, but I'm not entirely sure how the users can influence anything. In the end, it is owned by one person, and he has final say.


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## kyraeus (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> When was the last time FA went globally down and for how long?  I bet doing some actual math will yield more than just hyperbole.



If you want to do the math, that's fine. Personally I don't care one way or the other.  Dragoneer's antics were enough in that one instance that I chose for the most part not to put anything I absolutely needed, or any trust into FA such that I don't personally use the site on a daily basis.  The fact that there's a decent site downtime at least what? Once or twice a year or so minimum at a random guess? Possibly more?  I would argue that everyone hears the old 'FA's down' 'Oh, you mean again?' joke enough times that there's kind of a point to that.  

A) I can separate my personal politics and dislike for Dragoneer aside to say that even outside of those, there are problems with how the site is run and maintained, whether it was him, Yak, or even someone completely separate from them, it'd be the same issue.  

B) As I said, this problem isn't personally mine.  I rarely use FA for the various reasons above.  There are people who, in fact, DO use it day to day, and belittling those people is counter to the point of the site.  Thus why the last post.  The site's entire goal is to promote a place for primarily furries to display furry themed artwork.  Yes, doing business and auctions/etc are side goals, and not EXACTLY on the main agenda of the site.  But there's a point where the reality of your site may be different from your stated goals and you either embrace the reality, or put steps in order to change it to your goal.  Nobody has yet told me auctions/etc are something Ferrox doesn't WANT going on FA, so....

The point being, if this WAS ebay... well, it'd be ebay, for crying out loud.  You wouldn't tell someone to sell their stuff elsewhere, you'd probably wait the half hour or an hour till their competent teams got it fixed, then sell your stuff on ebay.  Because it IS ebay and it's the best place to get a viewing crowd for what you're selling.  Whether or not people CAN sell their stuff on etsy has no bearing, because you WANT to sell it on ebay.

And besides that, if you REALLY want to argue, I basically spent two minutes on google searching 'FA downtime (X year)' and pretty much 4 of the last five years had at LEAST one major downtime.  I'm not saying it can't happen to everyone. I'm saying:
1) It HAS happened here on a fairly regular basis.
2) the problem seems to be similar each time
3) It is impacting work on actual new functionality, forcing the teams to waste time fixing what already exists.  (This could be being used to give the userbase new goodies for xmas, not just breakfix)
4) The same old response has been given almost every single time: upgrade the DB/new server hardware.  How many new servers will everyone pay for before they realize that's... well, kinda not the problem. Even a normal non-geek PC user USUALLY can figure out if they buy three computers and every one won't run a program and throws up an error every time, that there's a problem that MAY NOT BE with the computer, but with the program itself.  (Yes, this is a little bit messy analogy, but the point comes across readily enough. Please address the point, not the crappy analogy).


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## maxgoof (Dec 12, 2013)

Just to present another point which may not be occurring to others...

The percentage shown is for the data transfer from one server to another. Once that transfer is done, then, and only then, does the data PROCESSING begin, at least, that's what it seems to me. We could be down all weekend while that happens.

And that doesn't include the upgrade from MySQL 5.5x to 5.6x which may or may not have already occurred or may be occuring concurrently. I don't know, nor do I have any idea how long that takes.


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## kyraeus (Dec 12, 2013)

Actually, what messes with me is this repeatedly hearkens back to the whole mess with FF for me.  One or two guys at the head of something huge, no system implemented to make sure it lives on beyond them, no real accountability if they do something rash, etc, etc..  That's just me though, please excuse my mental hiccup.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> Just to present another point which may not be occurring to others...
> 
> The percentage shown is for the data transfer from one server to another. Once that transfer is done, then, and only then, does the data PROCESSING begin, at least, that's what it seems to me. We could be down all weekend while that happens.
> 
> And that doesn't include the upgrade from MySQL 5.5x to 5.6x which may or may not have already occurred or may be occuring concurrently. I don't know, nor do I have any idea how long that takes.




Personally I ain't fussed about when it goes back up, I'm more bothered at lack of "What is actually going on" coupled with "This has been happening repeatedly for a while now, seriously?"

If, magically, this fixes the site in the long term, brilliant. But I'm not gonna hold my breath.


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## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

Verin Asper said:


> And you are missing the point so let me actually simplify it cause I do speak simple if I have to
> 
> 1.When the "Marketplace" is close, EVERYONE is going elsewhere meaning they are going to OTHER markets that are just like it, not only the customers but also those with "stalls". When ONE marketplace goes down, other marketplaces pick up the traffic, meaning currently while FA is being down, SoFurry and IB is getting traffic to it, I mean even Tumblr I have seen tons of artist going "I'm open for commissions" a lot more often than before. Its like what happens when a road is closed due to repairs, OTHER roads around said road gets more traffic on them...it doesn't just STOP, it doesn't just DISAPPEAR it always goes somewhere else.
> 
> ...







Alright, let's take these one by one then.. 


1. As  someone already mentioned here, FA is ONE LARGE repository for furry art. if people don't come to FA, then there isn't ONE SPECIFIC other place they will go.. They MAY go to DA, or IB, or SF, or an myriad of places, and it would be VERY hard for an  artist to keep up with EVERY ONE of those websites.  When a road closes, people take other routes. Not just one route, but many. Is a lemonade stand supposed to have a stand at every one of those other roads that could possibly be driven on because the main road is closed?

Unlikely.



2. Once again, this goes to the first point, and a point that I have made AT LEAST 3 TIMES NOW.   Even of a person has a page on IB and SF and such, IT IS STILL NOT GOING TO GET AS MUCH TRAFFIC. And you cannot assume that everyone on FA knows where to find you on other sites or even have an account on those other sites.  The onus is not them to know every single way of getting in touch with every single person they may want to commission on every singe furry site out that. That is is just ridiculous. 


3. Actually, no we got NO warning.. The website had been slow for DAYS so they suddenly put it up into read only mode and here we still sit.

So that point is moot.



4. A lot of people, especially the more popular artists who may get hangers on or fanboys, might not want to publicly post their email address. I can understand that.. People can send inappropriate emails or sign them up for span or do any sort of other heinous things. And Don't think it doesn't happen.. IT DOES. 



5.  How are they in the progress of things? No better than the site was a year ago.. or two.. or three.. or four.. or five.. or more.   If they took it down and would actually FIX the issues I would be fine with that, but the past has proven that no matter how long it is down, it still isn't fixed. 





So.. is that simple enough for you??


----------



## kyraeus (Dec 12, 2013)

Also, in reponse to my first post, I actually bothered to look up the details I'd forgotten.  That particular server debacle was during the 'Augustgate' incident.  http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity#Controversies


----------



## ThreeDawg (Dec 12, 2013)

Jotaku said:


> Expect a bit of a book here.



One hell of a first post, m8. Kudos.

I'll return to a past point now.

This is a reoccuring problem. Think of FA as a ship. It hits an iceburg. Huge hole in the hull, water flooding in, ship starts to sink. Instead of patching the hole with the usual good stuff, the crew uses Bubble Gum and Duct Tape to patch the hull.

Then, days later, after the water has been pumped out, it starts leaking, and then water gushes in, ship starts sinking again.

Point being, this site needs a large update. BADLY. We can't keep upgrading hardware, upgrading basics, when the code itself, the software, needs a serious revamp. If that happens, it is highly unlikely this site will continue to have so many problems.

TL;DR: Shit needs fixing. Actually fix it. Don't just patch it.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Just thought I'd let everyone know that I've been noodling around with some hacky-slashy web dev work this afternoon over Pasta-Salad. Not perfect, probably full of bugs but hey-ho an hour or so in dreamweaver can only do so much.

http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo.PNG
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-12 at 22.28.15.png
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/wp_ss_20131212_0003.png


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 12, 2013)

Surely furries can raise the dough to buy this site from its current owner and run it properly.

I remember when Wikipedia used to go down occasionally. That was at least seven years ago.


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## thoron (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Just thought I'd let everyone know that I've been noodling around with some hacky-slashy web dev work this afternoon over Pasta-Salad. Not perfect, probably full of bugs but hey-ho an hour or so in dreamweaver can only do so much.
> 
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo.PNG
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-12 at 22.28.15.png
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/wp_ss_20131212_0003.png



Not bad though its not really any different from what the front page already looks like. How would I sort through the work though? Serach kind of works but its reliant on people labling their work with the correct keywords.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Layout is no different, no. But its:
A) not built on tables
B) scales to mobile devices correctly and
C) is HTML Standard Compliant.

Its also been given a mild face-lift to modernise it.

I've not done any back end code (this was just front end tomfoolery in dreamweaver over dinner) but, really, the search should be fingering through the descriptions and titles as well as keywords, but the descriptions and titles should be fallbacks.


----------



## ThreeDawg (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Layout is no different, no. But its:
> A) not built on tables
> B) scales to mobile devices correctly and
> C) is HTML Standard Compliant.
> ...



And this is how you make a site.

#FARecruitBA2014


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## thoron (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Layout is no different, no. But its:
> A) not built on tables
> B) scales to mobile devices correctly and
> C) is HTML Standard Compliant.
> ...



Ah okay. Would it also keep the dropdown menus in browsing? Those make for very simple searching and submission categorizing. Its the one thing I really love on FA, the only thing that would improve it would be to add keyword search into it.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

thoron said:


> Ah okay. Would it also keep the dropdown menus in browsing? Those make for very simple searching and submission categorizing. Its the one thing I really love on FA, the only thing that would improve it would be to add keyword search into it.



Keyword filtering combined with category filtering is more than doable. Drop down menus would still exist because its the most elegant way to display a long list of selectable data in little space. Other methods would use far too much space on the page and be a visual cluster-fuck. I'd make them look prettier, though


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Just thought I'd let everyone know that I've been noodling around with some hacky-slashy web dev work this afternoon over Pasta-Salad. Not perfect, probably full of bugs but hey-ho an hour or so in dreamweaver can only do so much.
> 
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo.PNG
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-12 at 22.28.15.png
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/wp_ss_20131212_0003.png



I don't mind the layout, though I'm personally not fond of the positioning of the ads. The nice thing about them being off to the side on the top is you don't have them fighting for attention against the submissions. 

Would it be possible / appealing to keep options of vertical ads to place on the right side of the submissions area, recent + past announcement column on the left (easy access to see what's been going on lately on FA), and keep the most urgent updates by themselves above the submissions as we do now? I like the direction this is going, though.


----------



## RyuuYouki (Dec 12, 2013)

I don't normally post on these things since I know Dargoneer isn't going to give a flying fart and fix the issues, but I would like to toss my hat in anyway.  I for one would love to see either A) FA be bought from Dragoneer so stuff can actually be done, or B) someone like Benanderson or another obviously qualified person be allowed to code instead of YAK.

I also feel Freehaven's idea might actually work if we could only get the more popular artists on board.  I tried this myself, however I am not popular enough and sadly need to stay where the money is.  Honestly, the popular artists who DID try advocating moving to other sites got banned....  Big surprise >.>;


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> I don't mind the layout, though I'm personally not fond of the positioning of the ads. The nice thing about them being off to the side on the top is you don't have them fighting for attention against the submissions.
> 
> Would it be possible / appealing to keep options of vertical ads to place on the right side of the submissions area, recent + past announcement column on the left (easy access to see what's been going on lately on FA), and keep the most urgent updates by themselves above the submissions as we do now? I like the direction this is going, though.



Vertical banners are more than doable either side of the content when the window is above a certain size - though, from a design perspective it can be vastly more annoying if the adverts are cumbersome and poorly rendered (99% of adverts on FA) - even if they were the same dimensions as the current advertisements (300x90) but tilted portrait, they'd feel bigger - since humans read horizontally, your eyes will run into them more frequently. On mobile platforms they'd have to stay above and below the content due to lack of space. You'll also have to keep in mind that the most popular screen size for laptops (educated guess) is 1366x768, which is not much bigger than an iPad (1024x768 ) tilted landscape. Notifications down one side would eat into valuable space. It'd make the website feel more "cozy" and full of content, however.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Keyword filtering combined with category filtering is more than doable. Drop down menus would still exist because its the most elegant way to display a long list of selectable data in little space. Other methods would use far too much space on the page and be a visual cluster-fuck. I'd make them look prettier, though



Ooooo, I like this. Could you have it where the top bar (Or at least the message count) thins and then scrolls with the page too? At least on desktop devices where the screen space is available, as I've found that kind of simple functionality (A quick jump to messages/notes/etc.) useful, just for quick browsing instead of having to hit Home/Scroll to the top/Etc. XP

Course this is all hypothetical mumbo jumbo and has the implication you'd actually be working on a new UI for FA :B


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## Jotaku (Dec 12, 2013)

I don't think advocating a 'lets leave FA' thing is very smart held here. 
I think it would be best to fight this evenly. Make a new site with the knowledge that you'd have to fight for it and constantly put it out there--too many new great sites die because everyone forgets about them. I would gladly join a new art site meant to be everything FA isn't. I wouldn't necessarily leave FA but would be more than up for encouraging my watchers (4k on FA, more on DA and tumblr) to join and who knows what could happen later on if it works well and attracts enough popular artists. 

All  I honestly want is a nice site that works well with a decent and friendly community.


----------



## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

Jotaku said:


> I don't think advocating a 'lets leave FA' thing is very smart held here.
> I think it would be best to fight this evenly. Make a new site with the knowledge that you'd have to fight for it and constantly put it out there--too many new great sites die because everyone forgets about them. I would gladly join a new art site meant to be everything FA isn't. I wouldn't necessarily leave FA but would be more than up for encouraging my watchers (4k on FA, more on DA and tumblr) to join and who knows what could happen later on if it works well and attracts enough popular artists.
> 
> All  I honestly want is a nice that works well with a decent and friendly community.



Except the alternatives are there, they're not completely dead etc. Why don't you?


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

Frankly, I think the way to fix this is limited to either a buyout... or the dreaded L word.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Vertical banners are more than doable either side of the content when the window is above a certain size - though, from a design perspective it can be vastly more annoying if the adverts are cumbersome and poorly rendered (99% of adverts on FA) - even if they were the same dimensions as the current advertisements (300x90) but tilted portrait, they'd feel bigger - since humans read horizontally, your eyes will run into them more frequently. On mobile platforms they'd have to stay above and below the content due to lack of space. You'll also have to keep in mind that the most popular screen size for laptops (educated guess) is 1366x768, which is not much bigger than an iPad (1024x768 ) tilted landscape. Notifications down one side would eat into valuable space. It'd make the website feel more "cozy" and full of content, however.



Ah yes - I forgot about viewing it on other devices. I usually don't like visiting any gallery based website on my phone as it's always messed up and annoying to try and see a nice picture on such a smaller screen XD I think this would be a good time to add in new elements to the front page, though, too. In the Nav. bar add a text link to recent announcements vs. having a big block of text that we have now, but align that off to the right under 'log out, sfw' etc. SO MANY THINGS CAN BE PLAYED WITH. How would you approach profiles? I'm curious to know this, too.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

Jotaku said:


> All  I honestly want is a nice site that works well with a decent and friendly community.




That is really all any of us want. It doesn't seem like that is too much to ask.. 



Or maybe it is.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> Ooooo, I like this. Could you have it where the top bar (Or at least the message count) thins and then scrolls with the page too? At least on desktop devices where the screen space is available, as I've found that kind of simple functionality (A quick jump to messages/notes/etc.) useful, just for quick browsing instead of having to hit Home/Scroll to the top/Etc. XP
> 
> Course this is all hypothetical mumbo jumbo and has the implication you'd actually be working on a new UI for FA :B



nah, this is all just for fun right now. But fun or not good design is good design 
If you mean a floating header bar, more than doable. I'll add it now and get a screenshot.


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## thoron (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> nah, this is all just for fun right now. But fun or not good design is good design
> If you mean a floating header bar, more than doable. I'll add it now and get a screenshot.



Would there be the option to pin it and not have it follow? I ask cause laptop screens aren't that big and I wouldn't want it invading screen space when I'm look at art and stories. =3


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> nah, this is all just for fun right now. But fun or not good design is good design
> If you mean a floating header bar, more than doable. I'll add it now and get a screenshot.



Yup! I've found the stylish script for FA that does just that to be insanely useful. And doesn't take up bags of space 'cus the header isn't exactly huge.


thoron said:


> Would there be the option to pin it and not have it follow? I ask cause laptop screens aren't that big and I wouldn't want it invading screen space when I'm look at art and stories. =3



Certainly a good idea actually!


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## Jotaku (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> Except the alternatives are there, they're not completely dead etc. Why don't you?



I have, several times. Most the ones I like die out though. Also like that you had to use the term 'not completely dead,' which kinda adds to the point.


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## Ainoko (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> nah, this is all just for fun right now. But fun or not good design is good design
> If you mean a floating header bar, more than doable. I'll add it now and get a screenshot.



Like what are you doing here. Just wish that we could have a way to make multiple deletions of faves, submissions and journals at once instead of one at a time


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

Jotaku said:


> I have, several times. Most the ones I like die out though. Also like that you had to use the term 'not completely dead,' which kinda adds to the point.



The problem lies in that it's kind of a collective "MAN THIS PLACE IS QUIET" and shift back to FA because it's bigger. That's kinda hard to stop sadly.


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

See this, Dragoneer? This is someone who wants to _help_ in a legitimate way, not make shitty patches and force you to buy hardware that probably won't solve the problem. Listen! This outage costs _you_ valuable time and money, and if yak's fixes don't help, you're on track to lose more. Think of the economics of this!


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## Xantouke (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> Ooooo, I like this. Could you have it where the top bar (Or at least the message count) thins and then scrolls with the page too? At least on desktop devices where the screen space is available, as I've found that kind of simple functionality (A quick jump to messages/notes/etc.) useful, just for quick browsing instead of having to hit Home/Scroll to the top/Etc. XP
> 
> Course this is all hypothetical mumbo jumbo and has the implication you'd actually be working on a new UI for FA :B



There's actually already a userscript for that! I use it myself and have found it more than useful, since the Messages/Submissions links are _right there_. And it looks very stylish, as well as being unobtrusive.

Script: http://userstyles.org/styles/66167/furaffinity-sticky-menu

What it looks like: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11124845/&/userbarscript.png


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## Jotaku (Dec 12, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> The problem lies in that it's kind of a collective "MAN THIS PLACE IS QUIET" and shift back to FA because it's bigger. That's kinda hard to stop sadly.



Unfortunately you're very right. And few people have time for a full fledged advertising revolution for such a thing. But I mean FA started as a solution to another site and does very well. Who honestly knows where art sites will be in another 5 years. /Shrugs

Maybe FA will even get it's junk together, eh? /grin


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## RyuuYouki (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> See this, Dragoneer? This is someone who wants to _help_ in a legitimate way, not make shitty patches and force you to buy hardware that probably won't solve the problem.



Thing is, he will just continue to turn a blind eye like he always does.  You think this is the first person who has proven they know what they are talking about and can help?  Nope.  If you notice, there hasn't been a single peep out of Dragoneer.  Does anyone honestly think he hasn't seen the posts?  Past exp shows he still reads these things, he just ignores them unless someone says something bad about him/his wife or call an admin out on wrong doing.  Anyone remember the Drama when Sciggles became an admin? How she BROKE RULES SHE WAS WARNING PEOPLE FOR and how we got told to just get over it and all evidence was then removed?  Yeah, fun times here on FA.  Until Dragoneer is removed as owner I really don't think things will change.  As a person he is not bad.  Hell, most of the staff are decent people, but when it comes to running a site?  We would be better off with a jar of mayonnaise.  

Honestly, I'm surprised Benanderson is still even here.  Last time I was on the forums they were banning people left and right for doing what he is doing.  Because apparently trying to help with code is against some super secret rule.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

DELETE PLZ. Double posted without realizing.


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## Jotaku (Dec 12, 2013)

Xantouke said:


> There's actually already a userscript for that! I use it myself and have found it more than useful, since the Messages/Submissions links are _right there_. And it looks very stylish, as well as being unobtrusive.
> 
> Script: http://userstyles.org/styles/66167/furaffinity-sticky-menu
> 
> What it looks like: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11124845/&/userbarscript.png



/casually noticed my art there fffff


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 12, 2013)

Some of you may have noticed a recent removal of multiple posts. Hopefully I only have to say this once. All staff are fully aware of just how much this site means to people. It hurts us just as much as it hurts you to have the site down right now and we are working diligently to get things resolved. Frustrations aside this thread is for people to actually talk about the topic at hand or ask questions, or to be informed. If you want to come here to advertise other websites, or entice riot/mob behavior, or try to frenzy many of the wonderful people we have on FA into a exodus, we will remove such posts and handle things accordingly.

Please try to keep this civil while we all wait for the site to be up to full functionality again.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 12, 2013)

Xantouke said:


> There's actually already a userscript for that! I use it myself and have found it more than useful, since the Messages/Submissions links are _right there_. And it looks very stylish, as well as being unobtrusive.
> 
> Script: http://userstyles.org/styles/66167/furaffinity-sticky-menu
> 
> What it looks like: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11124845/&/userbarscript.png



That's the one I use actually! Except I made my name red because I'm a big red doofus.


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## rjbartrop (Dec 12, 2013)

Anyone remember when VCL was the default go-to place for furry art?  Shifts have happened in the past, and if another site can achieve critical mass in terms of a user base,  it's not out of the question that it can happen again.


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## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

RyuuYouki said:


> If you notice, there hasn't been a single peep out of Dragoneer.


Like a celebrity hounded by news reporters and paparazzi, perhaps?  Of _course_ you're not going to get a peep out of him if he has to wade (lurk, whatever) through the middle of an angry clusterfuck.


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Updated my little mock front end with a floating bar that can be pinned so it does not scroll.

http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.06.48.png
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.06.57.png


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## thoron (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Updated my little mock front end with a floating bar that can be pinned so it does not scroll.
> 
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.06.48.png
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.06.57.png



Nice. :3
Is there a way to incorperate the browse, search, etc. buttons into that since those would be useful in a floating header?


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

thoron said:


> Nice. :3
> Is there a way to incorperate the browse, search, etc. buttons into that since those would be useful in a floating header?



Easily. I'll try it now.


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## cc_ (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Just thought I'd let everyone know that I've been noodling around with some hacky-slashy web dev work this afternoon over Pasta-Salad. Not perfect, probably full of bugs but hey-ho an hour or so in dreamweaver can only do so much.
> 
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo.PNG
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-12 at 22.28.15.png
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/wp_ss_20131212_0003.png




This is a good start for some time spent over nosh. One can use viewport size declarations in CSS to collapse and rearrange elements for a range of screen widths as well. I think effort should be spent on updating the existing UI and make it responsive, as opposed to making a unique mobile UI (as Dragoneer's recent Christmas ornament sale notice suggested)

http://getbootstrap.com is a good example of a responsive page.

Since you've seen the code, you know that it would be very difficult to implement a new UI with the way html and PHP code are mixed.
If FA relied on a model-view-controller pattern like most modern sites, it would be pretty easy.


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 12, 2013)

Interesting. I do have an account on these forums...

Well now, to  all the people saying we should donate to fix the issues, when it looks  like most of the issues are coming from the back-end and the coding (or  sufficient lack thereof) I think donations wouldn't do a damn thing.  The reason for this is the fact that since May of 2011 the page has been  updated consistently every month even when there are no donations. But  suddenly come July of this year it stops? 

Yea that's not suspicious at all. I'll keep my coin in my pocket if you don't mind.

When  you're in a position of power like 'Neer, Yak and everyone else is who  is on the FA staff, you have to understand that they are going to come  under fire when the site isin't working. If you are providing a service  (which for this example, FA is a service) and all of a sudden that  service stops, your user base is going to wonder why. If you don't take  the time to field questions, handle concerns or at least make an  appearance more then once every few days, people are going to get angry.  Angry user base equals a reduced user base because they feel like the  people who provide the service don't care about them and will go to  another place to get what they need. Us getting angry because we aren't  getting anything more then cryptic answers (if any at all) or the  answers are proven to be nothing but false technobabble totally  justified, more so when (from what I understand) people have asked and volunteer to help out and take their time to better things... only to  get met with rejection (again, if anything at all.) When the site is  consistently having problems it becomes inexcusable, plain and simple.

I  know everything that people are saying, myself included, is probably  useless because (as my housemate put it) the site is 'Neer's baby and  he's not going to be seeing things from an outside point of view like  the rest of us. But I see this going one of two ways;

Either people get fed up with everything going on back-end wise that is causing downtime so frequently and go to another site.
-OR-
The site staff gets people on board who can actually fix things instead of putting a band-aid on it until things bust again.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Updated my little mock front end with a floating bar that can be pinned so it does not scroll.
> 
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.06.48.png
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.06.57.png



not bad  Curious. What would it take to make a dummy example to compare to what FA has now, and provide a second option in appearance to prove that with a little work FA can be updated?


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## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 12, 2013)

Well I finally decided to register.....



rjbartrop said:


> Anyone remember when VCL was the default go-to place for furry art?  Shifts have happened in the past, and if another site can achieve critical mass in terms of a user base,  it's not out of the question that it can happen again.


Exactly. I really don't want to see FA become the next MySpace.

With the recent unreliability, how do we know the site isn't gonna come crashing down HARD, as in down for months hard without even read-only mode? Such a fear is hardly unreasonable given the known issues and lack of feedback from people who should know.



> Like a celebrity hounded by news reporters and paparazzi, perhaps? Of _course you're not going to get a peep out of him if he has to wade (lurk, whatever) through the middle of an angry clusterfuck._



Oh please. All he would have to do is start a new thread and hit "Submit" if he wanted to. Just ignore the whole thread if he wanted to and just start a new thread with an update every 6 hours or so.


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## Pujot (Dec 12, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Surely furries can raise the dough to buy this site from its current owner and run it properly.



Kickstarter time!

On a side note, i'm worried by the pile of messages i'll have to clear once the +200 artists i'm watching begin to post everything they couldn't post through these days.


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## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> not bad  Curious. What would it take to make a dummy example to compare to what FA has now, and provide a second option in appearance to prove that with a little work FA can be updated?


1 - A shared (and more importantly accessible) version-controlled repository (SVN, git, etc.) overseen by a few users but with at least one branch that pretty much anyone can make commits/changes to, so that the PHP code can be managed and worked on by many.
2 - Some dummy schema specs, stored in said repository, for creating create the actual database that the code interacts with
3 - A group of interested users who can spend time writing code
4 - ?


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## 22mg (Dec 12, 2013)

honestly i'm not really sure which side to take here. i've been a fan of furaffinity for a long time and having run an oekaki myself (much smaller, but not saved from downtime/issues here and there) i want to try to give yak and dragoneer the benefit of the doubt and just assume they're too busy to answer right now. 

however, fa has a bad history with inactivity and favoritism and it would be more or less just a popular clique if it wasn't for the lack of furry sites that aren't created _specifically_ for porn. it kind of has a niche right now which is why people will put up with its nonsense for so long. honestly there are other art sites (nabyn for one) that have tried to share the market with FA and people are just either unaware or unwilling to go there. and i don't blame them because commissioners stay on FA because most people are already there. if we artists wanted to showcase art and not get feedback/commission work we would just have tumblrs. which most of us have. 

if the commissioners stay on FA the only thing i can think of to solve the problem would be 1. artist boycott, mass move to a different site (unlikely), 2. a buyout of FA (i don't think dragoneer is selling right now?), or 3. new staff, new admins, new attitude. 

if you ask around its being said that changes are being made but as a frequent user and artist to the website, i'm not seeing much of anything actually happening. which is why i've refrained from donating to the site or adding revenue by donating. i don't see enough actually being done for the users. we've been promised things before but let's be honest, small companies (furry ones especially) just aren't ran like companies. they're ran like a high school clique that throws pizza parties every once in a while. it's all informal, popularity-contest, immature bullshit. 

nobody respects the TOS (not even admins from what it sounds like) and nobody respects dragoneer or his admins.
should they? i tend to think that respect is earned, not expected. but if you want to improve FA there has to be some big back-end changes, some big management changes, and some user changes, too.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> 1 - A shared (and more importantly accessible) version-controlled repository (SVN, git, etc.) overseen by a few users but with at least one branch that pretty much anyone can make commits/changes to, so that the PHP code can be managed and worked on by many.
> 2 - Some dummy schema specs, stored in said repository, for creating create the actual database that the code interacts with
> 3 - A group of interested users who can spend time writing code
> 4 - ?



ah D: If possible it'd be neat to get something like that going, I wonder that if Dragoneer and Yak are shown a working dummy site it would push a new UI to be implemented faster vs. people just talking about it. Sometimes talking gets everyone no where >< I think it'd be neat to see this in action.


----------



## rednec0 (Dec 12, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Surely furries can raise the dough to buy this site from its current owner and run it properly.



And what, have somebody else run the site into the ground? I don't think so, Tim.


----------



## cc_ (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> 1 - A shared (and more importantly accessible) version-controlled repository (SVN, git, etc.) overseen by a few users but with at least one branch that pretty much anyone can make commits/changes to, so that the PHP code can be managed and worked on by many.
> 2 - Some dummy schema specs, stored in said repository, for creating create the actual database that the code interacts with
> 3 - A group of interested users who can spend time writing code
> 4 - ?




This happened. It was called Ferrox.
http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/90867-Technical-post-mortem


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

cc_ said:


> This is a good start for some time spent over nosh. One can use viewport size declarations in CSS to collapse and rearrange elements for a range of screen widths as well. I think effort should be spent on updating the existing UI and make it responsive, as opposed to making a unique mobile UI (as Dragoneer's recent Christmas ornament sale notice suggested)
> 
> http://getbootstrap.com is a good example of a responsive page.
> 
> ...



Only a small snippet of code but the quality of the code on the current UI alone is telling. Especially when you have comments like this nestled at the bottom of the page:


> // I know, innerHTML is evil. But alas, it's faster then creating the same structures via DOM



Another tell tale in the source is that all of the descriptions for mouse over are stored in a JS array:
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.48.48.png

Because, ya know, AJAX doesn't exist or anything. Imagine the database queries to pull those things all at once instead of on demand!


----------



## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

cc_ said:


> This happened. It was called Ferrox.
> http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/90867-Technical-post-mortem


If I had a git client, I'd be tempted to try a clone request and see what that code looks like close up.



InSaneJoker said:


> ah D: If possible it'd be neat to get something like that going, I wonder that if Dragoneer and Yak are shown a working dummy site it would push a new UI to be implemented faster vs. people just talking about it. Sometimes talking gets everyone no where >< I think it'd be neat to see this in action.


It would, but that takes a lot of consensual commitment.  The code base would also need a proper MVC separation (since somebody mentioned that term, I'll mention one I've heard about:  'Yii' -- and stop snickering), i.e. all the content processing is done separately from its rendering.  Actual database queries would be translated by an intermediate class and supplementary config files (of which the shared repository would have only dummy copies of; if say yak and Dragoneer wanted to adopt the code base, all they'd have to do, theoretically, is privately tweak the config files to reflect FA's actual database and schema).



benanderson said:


> Another tell tale in the source is that all of the descriptions for mouse over are stored in a JS array:
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.48.48.png


So is THAT why it takes forever for the mouseover icons to appear during page load....

Still, I can imagine worse.  Back in the very early days of Fanart Central, its equivalent of the Category listbox was one single listbox.  With over 1,000 individual categories, sorted heirarchially and alphabetically, with three "&nbsp;" for every indent on every entry.  (For a comparison, imagine multiplying the Type and Category and Gender listboxes all together so that it lists every single permutation in a single, flat list.  Now try to imagine selecting the right one when you submit an art!)  And that was in the twilight of dial-up days; any page with that listbox took forever to load at 56k.  It was eventually replaced by a smarter listbox that displays one level at a time as you actually click them (like a treeview) - not ideal, but much, _much_ lighter weight on the bandwidth.


----------



## teil (Dec 12, 2013)

@benanderson
I wish I had the money, because I'd PAY you to make a stylish code so that at least FA would look somewhat pretty like that. T AT


----------



## ShadowFur (Dec 12, 2013)

So were we lied to about the server being upgraded a few months ago? Or did what you ordered back then was crap needing upgraded again? It does not add up that a server that was replaced witha so called new high end server needs upgraded just a few months into service.


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## Pedigree (Dec 12, 2013)

Wasn't upgraded, they chose to migrate to a new server instead of waiting for the backlog to catch up on the old server because it would be faster to do so.

They did indeed upgrade from MySQL 5.whatever to 6.whatever though.


----------



## MrChocolate (Dec 12, 2013)

Is it wrong that I just want the custom thumbnails back and to have them show up regardless of the icon size? :c


----------



## rjbartrop (Dec 12, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> With the recent unreliability, how do we know the site isn't gonna come crashing down HARD, as in down for months hard without even read-only mode? Such a fear is hardly unreasonable given the known issues and lack of feedback from people who should know.



I remember when Yerf self destructed, and then went into read-only mode for almost a year before finally expiring.  Now that would trigger an exodus.

However, nobody is talking about that yet, and I think Dragoneer has too much at stake here to pull something like that.   A disruption of a couple of days is certainly annoying, especially at this time of year, but certainly not a catastrophe.


----------



## Shiekra Tora (Dec 12, 2013)

rjbartrop said:


> I think Dragoneer has too much at stake here to pull something like that.



Could have said the same about FurFright... we saw how well that went.


----------



## eshilieth (Dec 12, 2013)

@ benanderson, i am wondering about the impact of the sheer amount of submissions and journals that will be uploaded the moment the site is out of read-only. won't this only recreate the backlog we're trying to resolve? i could be wrong; i don't know much about this field, but that would be my guess.(i apologize if this question has already been asked and/or answered) on a side note, i find it slightly entertaining - the comments some of you have made concerning "(us) furries." in context, it's almost as if you're saying it in a condescending way. which is ironic, considering you're contributing to a site full of them...?


----------



## Mazz (Dec 12, 2013)

*comes to check for an update and sees nothing but jerks flinging shit like monkeys*

nice.... friendly community is NOT friendly obviously. 

To staff, please comment with your next update in the forum that can't get replies so I can ignore this asinine behavior and still see updates. 
Thanks for your hard FREE OF CHARGE work for your FREE website.


----------



## rjbartrop (Dec 12, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> Could have said the same about FurFright... we saw how well that went.



Cons are a different animal.   In most cases, the revenues go to a society, and the people running it don't actually get paid.  It looks like Dragoneer is in the same boat as the artists on FA, in that he depends on the revenue that FA brings in, so there's more here at stake than egoboo.


----------



## cc_ (Dec 12, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> With the recent unreliability, how do we know the site isn't gonna come crashing down HARD, as in down for months hard without even read-only mode?



Update: We accidentally the database. We're looking into solutions now.


----------



## Kitari (Dec 12, 2013)

Mazz said:


> *comes to check for an update and sees nothing but jerks flinging shit like monkeys*
> 
> nice.... friendly community is NOT friendly obviously.
> 
> ...


 The problem most of these people have is with the fact that while it IS free, they have received donations in the past (and also receive money from adds, etc) and words of improvement have been exchanged. which have not been kept. Too many people at this point are suggesting ideas and solutions to problems that have been implemented in other sites with great success. 

They're frustrated and rightfully so.

There's a large support group willing and ready to help improve this site, yet month after month its the same old story. Not just with the technological back end, but the management front end.

I'd be frustrated too... others, wanting to DONATE their time FREE OF CHARGE, yet their voices go unheard or responded...


----------



## TehSean (Dec 12, 2013)

Trpdwarf said:


> Some of you may have noticed a recent removal of multiple posts. Hopefully I only have to say this once. All staff are fully aware of just how much this site means to people. It hurts us just as much as it hurts you to have the site down right now and we are working diligently to get things resolved. Frustrations aside this thread is for people to actually talk about the topic at hand or ask questions, or to be informed. If you want to come here to advertise other websites, or entice riot/mob behavior, or try to frenzy many of the wonderful people we have on FA into a exodus, we will remove such posts and handle things accordingly.
> 
> Please try to keep this civil while we all wait for the site to be up to full functionality again.



Am I allowed to advertise Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook? What about Youtube?


----------



## Trpdwarf (Dec 12, 2013)

TehSean said:


> Am I allowed to advertise Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook? What about Youtube?



There is no reason to come in here to advertise sites. Since this could be a loop hole to the initial problems posts, no. The answer is no. Look at what this thread is supposed to be about and please keep in about that, and civil.


----------



## Kesteh (Dec 12, 2013)

So someone for kicks and giggles made a half decent UI in less than a day, but FA can't even produce a single rendition after 4 years?
I'm still scratching my head on why something is magically processing at 50% one day, then 80% the next. You aren't running Pentium 233s, that shit should have been done in no more than a single day. 
It's not like you're moving single files that span several gigabytes.


----------



## rednec0 (Dec 12, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> So someone for kicks and giggles made a half decent UI in less than a day, but FA can't even produce a single rendition after 4 years?
> I'm still scratching my head on why a database is processing something at 50% one day, then 80% the next. You aren't running Pentium 233s, that shit should have been done in no more than a single day.



This has nothing to do with hardware: everything is in the coding which makes the site behave like its running on a i486 and 16MB or RAM


----------



## Kesteh (Dec 12, 2013)

Well darn maybe they should have listened to those more than willing (and knowledgeable) coders out there willing to do it for free.
But no. Same old song and dance with empty promises.


----------



## cc_ (Dec 12, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> So someone for kicks and giggles made a half decent UI in less than a day, but FA can't even produce a single rendition after 4 years?
> I'm still scratching my head on why something is magically processing at 50% one day, then 80% the next. You aren't running Pentium 233s, that shit should have been done in no more than a single day.
> It's not like you're moving single files that span several gigabytes.



Creating a quick UI mockup is easy if you know HTML and CSS. It takes no commitment.

Elaborating on the initial idea for every page and then implementing it is the hard part.


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

2 HDDs blew. Enjoy your FA-free weekend.


----------



## Stratelier (Dec 12, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> It's not like you're moving single files that span several gigabytes.


You do *NOT* know that.  (Foot.  Mouth.  Now.)

Going by available serial ID values, FA has 12 million arts, 77 million submission comments, and 28 million userpage shouts.  This is not even counting every user's personal watchlist (which can range from dozens to thousands), Faves (also ranging from dozens to thousands), or every user's personal notifications.

Now consider that upgrading from one version of SQL to another may involve dumping and restoring the database tables *from scratch*.  If you have to do that, you really CAN end up with "single files that span several gigabytes".  The schema itself may only require a megabyte or two, it's the table records (actual data) that takes up gigs.


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 12, 2013)

cc_ said:


> Creating a quick UI mockup is easy if you know HTML and CSS. It takes no commitment.
> 
> Elaborating on the initial idea for every page and then implementing it is the hard part.



Implementing it isn't easy, sure. But I'd say developing a good, workable UI that can be iterated upon without the need for a complete revamp regularly is the toughest bit.


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

I've done some more fiddling.
Looks and works fine on an iPad including the fixed menu:
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 1.PNG
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 2.PNG

For those of you who want to see it in the flesh, you can find it here!
http://benanderson.homeip.net/fa/

Please note I've only used it in Safari 7 on OS X. It'll probables explode into bits in other browsers.

Some niggles here and there but eh

I apologise in advance to any fellow web designers out there who may cringe at my source 
I just wanted it to work. Cleanup (separate sheets for colour/layout, proper comments, JSLint verified JS etc.) will be later if I can be bothered.

There's no responsive design in it as well for mobile phones but, again, later if I can be bothered.

I'm off to watch Game Grumps now! 



cc_ said:


> Creating a quick UI mockup is easy if you know HTML and CSS. It takes no commitment.
> 
> Elaborating on the initial idea for every page and then implementing it is the hard part.



I will admit I was scratching my head after the initial throw together for that mock-up linked above. Trying to make something completely full of images look both minimal and not a cluster fuck is awkward.

_"Okay I have the initial mock-up, but how do I make it less eye-cancer inducing and usable???"_


----------



## thoron (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I've done some more fiddling.
> Looks and works fine on an iPad including the fixed menu:
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 1.PNG
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 2.PNG
> ...



Very nice I have to say. =3


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

And the Winter of Discontent drags on.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Dec 12, 2013)

Will this site be ready by Christmas?


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## eshilieth (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> 2 HDDs blew. Enjoy your FA-free weekend.


did they really? and how do you know this? just wondering, because i didn't happen to see an update about it.


----------



## cc_ (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I've done some more fiddling.
> Looks and works fine on an iPad including the fixed menu:
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 1.PNG
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 2.PNG
> ...



Oh no, I looked at the source!
The horizontal links at the top and bottom should probably be an unordered list styled to be inline.
The user links could collapse or bump onto the next line for smartphones.

Just some input, should you decide to go any further. Looks respectable so far.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 12, 2013)

rjbartrop said:


> Anyone remember when VCL was the default go-to place for furry art?  Shifts have happened in the past, and if another site can achieve critical mass in terms of a user base,  it's not out of the question that it can happen again.





Oh yeah... I am an of enough furry to remember that *AND Yerf..  You remember Yerf?    *GET OFF MY LAWN YOU WHIPPERSNAPPERS*


----------



## GamerFox (Dec 12, 2013)

eshilieth said:


> did they really? and how do you know this? just wondering, because i didn't happen to see an update about it.



https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/411289299582070784


----------



## thoron (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/411289299582070784



Twitter must be derping on me cause I didn't see that responce until just now when you linked it.


----------



## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

*The difference between SQL and SOL is just one line.*



benanderson said:


> Another tell tale in the source is that all of the descriptions for mouse over are stored in a JS array:
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 00.48.48.png
> 
> Because, ya know, AJAX doesn't exist or anything. Imagine the database queries to pull those things all at once instead of on demand!



Yeah, some on-demand loading would definitely reduce the total number of database queries, but it would also introduce a delay between when AJAX requests a description and when it gets the response from the web server. This might not be a problem when the web servers aren't running slow, but when they are, ouch! Imagine a 20-second delay every time you hover over a thumb on the main page to see its description! That's bad! (Is it also bad that I assume the servers will occasionally run slow no matter how much we fix them?)

There are clever ways to mitigate that, though... I'm thinking selective prefetch (up to three per mouseover: n, n+1 and n-1) could be a good compromise.

And some "memcached" on the server is practically a given, isn't it?

Also, keep in mind that one of the things many people like about FA is that it doesn't rely as much on "heavy" JS as other art sites. If we get too fancy with scripts, we could end up drowning in near-unmaintainable "compatibility soup" just like deviantART. (My rule is: Simpler is better. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be clever, though; it just needs to be a "simple clever".)

(By the way, I apologize for calling you a troll earlier. Perhaps you do know your stuff after all! Extra credit for the "use strict", too!)


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

cc_ said:


> Oh no, I looked at the source!
> The horizontal links at the top and bottom should probably be an unordered list styled to be inline.
> The user links could collapse or bump onto the next line for smartphones.
> 
> Just some input, should you decide to go any further. Looks respectable so far.



As I said, I just wanted it out the door first before doing anything usable 
If I want to go further I'll throw in some proper links, lists, brush off the ol' CSS 3 handbook on my bookshelf for some little responsive tweaks to get it sitting pretty on smart phones (it wont take much) and, of course, make the code more pretty to wade through (even I got lost in the CSS).


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I've done some more fiddling.
> Looks and works fine on an iPad including the fixed menu:
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 1.PNG
> http://benanderson.homeip.net/fascreens/photo 2.PNG
> ...



LOVE THIS. -throws money at you- Once FA boots back up I am going to make a journal about this. This is seriously a nice layout. If a basic frame work and proper pipeline for the creation of something like this can be implemented, I do think this can become a reality.


----------



## Kesteh (Dec 12, 2013)

I've never seen anything go through so much hardware so often.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Dec 12, 2013)

In the meantime, go watch this movie again because it's that time once again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiqwTv9yeI


----------



## nrr (Dec 12, 2013)

Credentials, in case anyone is curious: I am a systems engineer working  for Turner Broadcasting System, Inc., on the Platform Operations team  behind sites like http://www.cnn.com and http://www.cartoonnetwork.com and http://www.adultswim.com/. I can provide proof on demand. 

(Also, the usual legal babble applies. Opinions are mine and do not constitute endorsements by TBS and so on and so forth.)

My day-to-day involves writing systems automation and ensuring that we  can maintain high amounts of uptime for the audience-facing presence of  our various properties. To draw an analog within the industry, we are  effectively the Turner version of Google's SRE team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIuTnhdTzK0 is a good talk by Tom Limoncelli on what SRE does.

Disclaimer: I'm also really kinda drunk because I had three really  awesome beers, and I'm now nursing a bottle of riesling from 2009. (For  those who care: Bell's Kalamazoo, Mother Earth Weeping Willow, and Full  Sail Session Black. The riesling is a bottle of Maximin Grunhauser I  brought back with me from Germany that year.)



rednec0 said:


> This has nothing to do with hardware: everything  is in the coding which makes the site behave like its running on a i486  and 16MB or RAM



The sad part is that my favorite old school PC demo, Second Reality (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63),  was originally written for a 386 with about a quarter that amount of  RAM. Similarly, the best Commodore 64 demo of all time, Edge of Disgrace  (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=51983), runs on a sub-1MHz Motorola 6510 with 39k of available memory.

... but that's the demoscene for you.



Kesteh said:


> Well darn maybe they should have listened to those  more than willing (and knowledgeable) coders out there willing to do it  for free.
> But no. Same old song and dance with empty promises.



By and large, I think you can blame me for this. Let me explain.

I'm sure that you'll be able to dig up enough information by perusing my  ancient FAF posts, which I actually do highly advise that you read, not  only because they're informative but because they paint enough of a  picture of exactly how much of a shithead I was back in the  mid-noughties.

*The long and short of the story, for those of you who don't  really care to read past this, is that I and a couple of others spent  about four years just exploiting every single last little exploitable  thing in FA.* This ranged from resetting Dragoneer's password  using a cross-site scripting exploit (Oh, man, the reaction to that was  priceless...) to reading users' notes to abusing the comment hiding  feature's lack of verification of the data you put into it. There were  even a number of petty denial of service attacks that exploited the  tendency for the database servers to fill up their I/O queues with  writes. (Sound familiar?) We did it all, and there were a number of  things still that did nothing but infuriate FA's management, like  leaking scripts to 4chan.

The password box on the account settings page was my fault. I submitted  the patch for that, which summarily got accepted. I was on the front  page for, like, a week. I'm also the reason why you can't upload random  binary blobs as part of your submission data.

Either way, I was entirely judged by the company I kept, which included  the infamous Arcturus, as well as most of the #despise crew, which is a  collection of furries who now work for some pretty big industry names  because we're good at what we do. Back then, though, we were college  kids who needed a way to blow off steam, so we chose FA as our  playground. In a perverse kind of way, a number of us actually owe a lot  to FA.

If you can stomach the idea, guys, thanks for all that you've done to make us #despise folks successful, albeit at your expense.

Seriously, though, it was this association that sort of shot any  credibility I may have had. If you go back and read my inane teenage  ramblings from back in 2005 and then pretend that I'm saying the same  things today, that's more or less why I'm frustrated. The very same  things hold true.

My biggest complaints were with how things were implemented and how  things were put together operationally. There was no concern for much of  anything like bug tracking, refactoring, implementing design patterns,  or even sitting down and thinking about operations concepts like  redundancy, single points of failure, caching, etc. For what it's worth,  when I introduced yak to LiveJournal's memcached, his remark was, when  noting that people usually allocated a gigabyte or so of RAM alone to  memcached, *"Just like all of the other tools from them, this requires so many resources."* That's the shining mark of someone who just doesn't quite get it.

It's dysfunctional. It'll never change. Have fun being frustrated. _In vino veritas, in aqua sanitas._ I know I've brought enough wine, but have you?


----------



## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

*Re: The difference between SQL and SOL is just one line.*



StevenRoy said:


> Yeah, some on-demand loading would definitely reduce the total number of database queries, but it would also introduce a delay between when AJAX requests a description and when it gets the response from the web server. This might not be a problem when the web servers aren't running slow, but when they are, ouch! Imagine a 20-second delay every time you hover over a thumb on the main page to see its description! That's bad! (Is it also bad that I assume the servers will occasionally run slow no matter how much we fix them?)



Not bad to assume at all. Peak time on any website will cause load - but a slowdown can be anything form 20 seconds down to 0.02milliseconds depending on how its been load balanced between boxes and switches.



StevenRoy said:


> There are clever ways to mitigate that, though... I'm thinking selective prefetch (up to three per mouseover: n, n+1 and n-1) could be a good compromise.


That's a pretty good idea.
I might install PHP on my server and try some backend stuff (no PHP because its a Win2k8 box)



StevenRoy said:


> Also, keep in mind that one of the things many people like about FA is that it doesn't rely as much on "heavy" JS as other art sites. If we get too fancy with scripts, we could end up drowning in near-unmaintainable "compatibility soup" just like deviantART. (My rule is: Simpler is better. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be clever, though; it just needs to be a "simple clever".)


I'm exactly the same - its why I don't use big bloated libraries and proffer to write my own with all the fat cut out (as you've seen with JSBL.js) or quite often from scratch.
The problem (solution?) with learning how to program on 8-bit BBC Micros with only 32K of RAM - you suddenly think every computer has only 32K of RAM when you sit in front of an IDE.
This is why in my mock up I've kept everything to a minimum script wise. If it can be done with careful CSS or is a needless extra that only adds aesthetic tweaks (*COUGH*menuAnimations*COUGH*) then I remove them.



StevenRoy said:


> By the way, I apologize for calling you a troll earlier. Perhaps you do know your stuff after all! Extra credit for the "use strict", too!


And I apologise for being a snippy bitch.


----------



## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/411289299582070784


This actually explains a lot.

You know what hard drives sometimes do before they fail? They slow down! They still work, just really really slowly... and then the errors suddenly start coming later and by then it's often too late! (Unless you've got RAID redundancy - thank goodness for that, right?)

This may not have caused the original problem, but what do you think the odds are that it contributed significantly?

(Please tell me they weren't Seagate Barracudas. They've been sucking lately.)



nrr said:


> The sad part is that my favorite old school PC demo, Second Reality (...), was originally written for a 386 with about a quarter that amount of RAM. Similarly, the best Commodore 64 demo of all time, Edge of Disgrace (...), runs on a sub-1MHz Motorola 6510 with 39k of available memory.


There's a Commodore 64 version of Second Reality. THAT'S the demoscene for you!


----------



## nrr (Dec 12, 2013)

StevenRoy said:


> There's a Commodore 64 version of Second Reality. THAT'S the demoscene for you!



Haha, I completely forgot about that! I think kb from Farbrausch did that port, and kb is the biggest dork ever. He pranced around at Revision wearing bunny ears one year, and he's known for wearing things like children's PokÃ©mon T-shirts and things.


----------



## Myr (Dec 12, 2013)

Stratadrake said:


> 1 - A shared (and more importantly accessible) version-controlled repository (SVN, git, etc.) overseen by a few users but with at least one branch that pretty much anyone can make commits/changes to, so that the PHP code can be managed and worked on by many.
> 2 - Some dummy schema specs, stored in said repository, for creating create the actual database that the code interacts with
> 3 - A group of interested users who can spend time writing code
> 4 - ?


I am volunteering a server and to design a back-end site architecture and database. The server would be equipped with Trac, SVN, MySQL, and a web server. I tend to prefer Tomcat over standard Apache. However, if not enough people are familiar with writing a website in Java then there's no point moving away from PHP.

I'd also really like to experiment with an implementation of WeedFS. I've never used it before, but I bet it would be perfect for a site like FA's ridiculous quantity of files.

I had the administrative blessing to build something individually. Organizing a team is totally different though. No sense attempting to run down that path without the blessing of the administration. We can build something, but it'd be a huge waste of everyone's time if it wasn't used. As I've stated in previous posts, this would be built from scratch. No existing FA code would be needed with the exception of the database schema if and only if the new creation was certified to migrate to. I think it would be best if we, people who have the desire and skills to do something, got together as an independent agile development team separate from the existing administrative organization.


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## Nanuk (Dec 12, 2013)

Don't use trac.  Anything but trac.


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## Shaon the Kozo (Dec 12, 2013)

Neer on twitter: I don't have a status update right now. We're waiting on two new hard drives to come in as we had two drive failures, too.


I just...really? I feel it's always some kind of excuse, one after another. 

I'm just, honestly I'm fed up. I have only been on the site 3-4 years and have about 1.6k watchers. I don't depend on FA for money, but it's some nice extra money on the side of the two jobs I have while being a full time college student. It's not necessary for me to have, and maybe I don't have a say since I don't' donate. But really, why should I? I have wanted to donate so many times, but things like THIS are the reasons I don't do it. 

Neer constantly promises updates to the site and features that NEVER happen. I am 100% willing to throw down $20 if there was some ACTUAL FEASIBLE PROMISE of an update. It's been at least two years since it was promised, since they had screen shots and pieces with profiles and everything. Where is it? When is it coming? It was supposed to be by the end of the year 2012. Then they said by January 2013. Then the first few months of 2013. It's now less than a month away from 2014 and there has been NO NEWS about it. Why would I EVER want to donate money to a site that does nothing but lie to me? I enjoy it, yes. I love FA even though it has tons of issues. I want it to succeed. But I'm sick and tired of all the lies from staff, the empty promises, the extremely laz behavior they take towards their userbase, and the utter incompetence of the staff when it comes to communicating with one another about the most simple ToS and AUP stuff on the site.

I understand FA is free, but as said by others more eloquently than I, so are other sites likes Amazon and Ebay. Do they go down? Yes, they do. Are they made just for sales? Unlike FA, yes they are. but the point remains. People have volunteered countless times to help, only to be shut down. FA had its attempts to hire people, and that ferocity merge which both fixed nothing and people left because they felt they couldn't help and were pushed away at every turn. This isn't just random people, they were people who went out of their way and were previously approved by the staff to help with FA. In addition, FA has been given tons of donations, especially about half a year ago? A year ago? of parts and amazon gift cards. This site and community WANTS to and CAN pull together for FA. But when the staff, the admin, the coder, and the owner of the site do essentially nothing, tell us nothing, and continue on with little appreciation besides fickle words? Yeah, it's discouraging. People just don't move anywhere because there aren't viable options. Yes, there's SoFurry, Inkbunny and Weasyl, but FA is so established already. Therein lies the problem really; there's little motivation to change because Yak, Neer and the staff know that no matter how lax and irresponsible they are with the site, it will stay up and remain the strongest. I don't think any of the staff are bad people, I truly believe that Neer at least cares about the site. But it's just discouraging to see that it NEVER shows more than words. 

I'm no coder, I can't claim to be. But I know that if so many competent coders are saying there's a problem then there must be. And I really want FA to succeed and get some help with the site. I would put money down right now if there was any proof it would help. But I won't because honestly, whether the staff meant to or not, there has been nothing but lies and shadiness from the staff for the past few years. I don't want to put money down if it won't fix anything. I know plenty of us who complain will meet Neer and Yak half way, but we have to see SOME effort on their half besides only fixing FA when it's broken. And no, fixing the commission tab after THREE YEARS and adding 100 NEW SPECIES TO THE SPECIES LIST FOR SUBMISSIONS do NOT count as actually making changes. The former was something that was broken for a long time, and it should have gone without saying that it should have been fixed much much sooner. I know what I say won't change much, but I want people to see that those of us (like many people who've commented here already) who are upset do not just want to insult Neer. We truly want this site to improve and will work with everyone if we have the chance to do so with the belief that it'll make a difference.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

I am crossing my fingers for those that are willing to actually try and make a difference with FA's code and such, that you guys actually get the chance to do so.


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## rednec0 (Dec 12, 2013)

nrr said:


> My biggest complaints were with how things were implemented and how  things were put together operationally. There was no concern for much of  anything like bug tracking, refactoring, implementing design patterns,  or even sitting down and thinking about operations concepts like  redundancy, single points of failure, caching, etc. For what it's worth,  when I introduced yak to LiveJournal's memcached, his remark was, when  noting that people usually allocated a gigabyte or so of RAM alone to  memcached, *"Just like all of the other tools from them, this requires so many resources."* That's the shining mark of someone who just doesn't quite get it.



That's probably another bit of legitimate criticism about Yak's "questionable competence" as the site's coder. The staff really needs to look at the evidence that's staring them right in the face.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

StevenRoy said:


> This actually explains a lot.
> 
> You know what hard drives sometimes do before they fail? They slow down! They still work, just really really slowly... and then the errors suddenly start coming later and by then it's often too late! (Unless you've got RAID redundancy - thank goodness for that, right?)
> 
> ...



Hrrnnggggggg

I do have to call a little bit of BS on the dual disk failure. I've had countless disks ranging from 7200s in IBM XIVs to 10+ year old U320s blink the lil' orange light at me to denote some kind of failure - but the rate of data transfer was unaffected until the system actually went and phased it out. 

What is more worrying is that they _don't keep spares on site._

God help us if a PSU goes belly up.



StevenRoy said:


> There's a Commodore 64 version of Second Reality. THAT'S the demoscene for you!


I have to throw in these two gems:
Spaceballs and 9 Fingers for AMIGA ECS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feTVE283aKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPoYzwib7JQ

Pardon me, I need some alone time with them.


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## Myr (Dec 12, 2013)

Nanuk said:


> Don't use trac.  Anything but trac.


If it's used properly it can be a great asset. I've seen plenty of people use it horribly wrong though. :/ I personally don't care what is used, but a project management and documentation system like Trac is necessary. I've mentioned it because I've had great success with it at work in the past.


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## rednec0 (Dec 12, 2013)

InSaneJoker said:


> I am crossing my fingers for those that are willing to actually try and make a difference with FA's code and such, that you guys actually get the chance to do so.



If Yak has his way, they won't sadly.


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## Nanuk (Dec 12, 2013)

Myr said:


> If it's used properly it can be a great asset. I've seen plenty of people use it horribly wrong though. :/ I personally don't care what is used, but a project management and documentation system like Trac is necessary. I've mentioned it because I've had great success with it at work in the past.



Oh no, don't get me wrong. A PM system is definitely necessary. I just hate trac because it's a pain to use and horribly outdated. A good combination I've used in the past is Asana for a dev team (product managers + developers) and phabricator on a bigger team. They both have their pros and cons, but phabricator replicates a lot of trac in a cleaner, more user-friendly interface. Plus it's snarky and I love a snarky web app.


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## InSaneJoker (Dec 12, 2013)

rednec0 said:


> If Yak has his way, they won't sadly.



OMMG I hate people. Why can't he just realize he can be part of something positive, something GOOD, which in turn will make him look good for accepting help and such?


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

Myr said:


> I am volunteering a server and to design a back-end site architecture and database. The server would be equipped with Trac, SVN, MySQL, and a web server. I tend to prefer Tomcat over standard Apache. However, if not enough people are familiar with writing a website in Java then there's no point moving away from PHP.
> 
> I'd also really like to experiment with an implementation of WeedFS. I've never used it before, but I bet it would be perfect for a site like FA's ridiculous quantity of files.
> 
> I had the administrative blessing to build something individually. Organizing a team is totally different though. No sense attempting to run down that path without the blessing of the administration. We can build something, but it'd be a huge waste of everyone's time if it wasn't used. As I've stated in previous posts, this would be built from scratch. No existing FA code would be needed with the exception of the database schema if and only if the new creation was certified to migrate to. I think it would be best if we, people who have the desire and skills to do something, got together as an independent agile development team separate from the existing administrative organization.



I'd just stick with the ever omni-present LAMP setup with a totally skin and bones Ubuntu Server - everything configured manually (but I'm just OCD). Hell, I'd even go as far as to suggest a WAMP setup because of how easy Windows Server is to maintain (Don't knock windows server until you've tried it, folks! XP )

Yes all these extra tools would be lovely and tickle our nerdy bones but the old "KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid" mantra is ringing alarm bells in my ears and, to me, less would be far, FAR more with a system like FA.


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## nuzzcat (Dec 12, 2013)

.


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## nrr (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I'd just stick with the ever omni-present LAMP setup with a totally skin and bones Ubuntu Server - everything configured manually (but I'm just OCD). Hell, I'd even go as far as to suggest a WAMP setup because of how easy Windows Server is to maintain (Don't knock windows server until you've tried it, folks! XP )



That won't work. The traffic alone would cause Apache to topple the poor box, and FA's traffic patterns don't really lend itself well to running on a small collection of large machines. Worse, operationally, that's a bad idea; redundancy is sort of a given for a site like FA, lest we see downtime because of a lack of it. It's part of the reason why we're all here at the moment anyway. 

(I disagree with your remarks regarding Windows Server being easy to maintain, but that's likely because the smallest cluster of machines I work on numbers in the thousands.)



benanderson said:


> Yes all these extra tools would be lovely and tickle our nerdy bones but the old "KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid" mantra is ringing alarm bells in my ears and, to me, less would be far, FAR more with a system like FA.



While I agree, there's a lower bound on how much you can take away before it becomes counterproductive. For FA, you may notice that you need a pair of database servers with robust disk configurations, three app servers or so, a few boxes sitting out in front acting as reverse-proxying caches, and a couple of others.

To put things in perspective: The load average for e621 when I worked on it was pretty consistently up around 7.0 or so on an eight-core machine, and that was all on a single machine serving about 30TB/mo worth of traffic to horny furries. %iowait was always a bit too high for comfort.


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## Winterbeast (Dec 12, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> And the Winter of Discontent drags on.



So I will be content when the site comes back up? I would like to think so....


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## StevenRoy (Dec 12, 2013)

*Insert clever title here.*



benanderson said:


> I have to throw in these two gems:
> Spaceballs and 9 Fingers for AMIGA ECS.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feTVE283aKc
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPoYzwib7JQ


Oh, that settles it: I like you now!

(...And suddenly I really wanna finish that C64 demo I was working on a few years ago...)


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

nrr said:


> That won't work. The traffic alone would cause Apache to topple the poor box, and FA's traffic patterns don't really lend itself well to running on a small collection of large machines. Worse, operationally, that's a bad idea; redundancy is sort of a given for a site like FA, lest we see downtime because of a lack of it. It's part of the reason why we're all here at the moment anyway.


It must be a pretty underpowered box(s?) if Apache will cause it to fall flat on its face.



nrr said:


> (I disagree with your remarks regarding Windows Server being easy to maintain, but that's likely because the smallest cluster of machines I work on numbers in the thousands.)


Clusters are dicks regardless of OS. Fact. I could kick our SAP boxes and feel better with each swing.



nrr said:


> While I agree, there's a lower bound on how much you can take away before it becomes counterproductive. For FA, you may notice that you need a pair of database servers with robust disk configurations, three app servers or so, a few boxes sitting out in front acting as reverse-proxying caches, and a couple of others.



I was generalising - plus I was talking about general software config rather than hardware. Right now we just need something that'll work software wise - no bells and whistles, it just needs to work first with the bare minimum.


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## benanderson (Dec 12, 2013)

*Re: Insert clever title here.*



StevenRoy said:


> Oh, that settles it: I like you now!
> 
> (...And suddenly I really wanna finish that C64 demo I was working on a few years ago...)



Makes me want to finish that music tracker for the BBC Micro computer >___>


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## Myr (Dec 12, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I'd just stick with the ever omni-present LAMP setup with a totally skin and bones Ubuntu Server - everything configured manually (but I'm just OCD). Hell, I'd even go as far as to suggest a WAMP setup because of how easy Windows Server is to maintain (Don't knock windows server until you've tried it, folks! XP )
> 
> Yes all these extra tools would be lovely and tickle our nerdy bones but the old "KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid" mantra is ringing alarm bells in my ears and, to me, less would be far, FAR more with a system like FA.


I tend to stick to RedHat or RedHat derivatives. I'd be inclined to start from a minimal CentOS load and then add the necessary software on top of that.  It would also be possible to load the server with multiple VMs, although I'm not entirely sure how to expose them to the outside world aside from port forwarding rules. The system can be up and running this weekend. (it used to be a Minecraft server)

As for the additional stuff, I don't see how a project on the scale of something like FA could succeed and live on past our involvement without some type of project documentation and management solution like Trac. WeedFS is also a relatively new solution to simplifying the management of an arbitrarily huge number of files. FA does this weird thing of assigning multiple ID numbers to thumbnails probably to control exactly where they wind up. I'd rather use the submission's ID and append a size identifier and be done with it. No need to store location -- let the file system figure that one out.

When it comes to web server, I've done ridiculous things with Tomcat in the past, and much prefer strictly typed languages like Java. Again, it's appropriate only if enough people are capable of writing in it. I think we can all recognize that we each have jobs, lives, family, art, hobbies, and other things that prevent any one person from easily implementing a project of this scale from end to end alone. It's best to be a team effort.


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## Traediras (Dec 13, 2013)

It really is a frustration where there's a lot of people willing to volunteer their time and energy for something that is free but unable to do so for whatever reason... FA is really the centerpiece of the furry community, and yet the community is kept out from helping to maintain it. Whatever malicious threats in the past happened most likely happened to bring to light the state of disrepair the site is in and not much else. Just sad that we can't do anything about it, because nobody will let us.


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## nrr (Dec 13, 2013)

benanderson said:


> It must be a pretty underpowered box(s?) if Apache will cause it to fall flat on its face.



Do the math assuming 30TB/mo. I'm serious. Assume further that about 80% of your requests return responses <10k, 8% of your requests return responses between 10k and 2MB in size and that 2% of your requests are >2MB. You'll come up with some interesting numbers for the amount of requests per second, and when trying to tune Apache sanely, you'll find that you'll hit some upper limits imposed by, for one, the process scheduler in your OS, and two, you'll begin seeing some serious memory usage issues per request (Apache's overhead is something ridiculous like 200kB resident/req).

Just run the numbers.



benanderson said:


> Clusters are dicks regardless of OS. Fact. I could kick our SAP boxes and feel better with each swing.



Nah, operating Windows at our scale would be a bit interesting. The environment I work in is pretty dynamic, and with a lot of configuration changes happening per second on general purpose compute infrastructure, I don't think Windows would be able to cope. SCCM et al just don't seem well-suited for such a thing, and automation tools like Chef only go so far.



benanderson said:


> I was generalising - plus I was talking about general software config rather than hardware. Right now we just need something that'll work software wise - no bells and whistles, it just needs to work first with the bare minimum.



If you want to get really general, when I design out ways to scale out, e.g., service delivery infrastructure for Cartoon Network's games, I tend to think of things in terms of service replicas instead of individual servers. In fact, I don't even have DC access anywhere; I don't know what any of our hardware looks like past what I can see in tools like dmidecode.

You'll need a couple of database replicas with resilient storage, a small handful of application replicas, a small handful of front-end cache replicas, some supporting service replicas for things like monitoring, and so on and so forth.


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## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Traediras said:


> FA is really the centerpiece of the furry community, and yet the community is kept out from helping to maintain it.



You hit the nail on the head here.  This isn't about the inconvenience of not being able to log on one of our favorite pr0n websites.  This is where our community goes to gather.  Yet it's not run by the community, it's run by a group of guys.  And if you're not friends with those guys, it seems like you don't really get a say.


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## benanderson (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> I tend to stick to RedHat or RedHat derivatives. I'd be inclined to start from a minimal CentOS load and then add the necessary software on top of that.  It would also be possible to load the server with multiple VMs, although I'm not entirely sure how to expose them to the outside world aside from port forwarding rules. The system can be up and running this weekend.
> 
> As for the additional stuff, I don't see how a project on the scale of something like FA could succeed and live on past our involvement without some type of project documentation and management solution like Trac. WeedFS is also a relatively new solution to simplifying the management of an arbitrarily huge number of files. FA does this weird thing of assigning multiple ID numbers to thumbnails probably to control exactly where they wind up. I'd rather use the submission's ID and append a size identifier and be done with it. No need to store location -- let the file system figure that one out.
> 
> When it comes to web server, I've done ridiculous things with Tomcat in the past, and much prefer strictly typed languages like Java. Again, it's appropriate only if enough people are capable of writing in it. I think we can all recognize that we each have jobs, lives, family, art, hobbies, and other things that prevent any one person from easily implementing a project of this scale from end to end alone. It's best to be a team effort.



I usually start form a minimal Ubuntu Server OS and go from there (I just like that thar Debian structure).
TBH you could use any Wiki system - it doesn't have to be Trac. As long as the management and structure is there, it'll work. Hell, even Sharepoint would work if it was managed correctly! Plus, Trac and Weed-FS seem like quite early stage software. Weed-FS is not even at v1. I'm more for the established norm so I can minimize risk. Why do you think business wait years after a new release to finally upgrade to it?

I myself have Java experience but never in a web setting. PHP is still the goto for people to learn server scripting (along with ASP.NET) and therefore more people will be familiar with it.


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## benanderson (Dec 13, 2013)

nrr said:


> Do the math assuming 30TB/mo. I'm serious. Assume further that about 80% of your requests return responses <10k, 8% of your requests return responses between 10k and 2MB in size and that 2% of your requests are >2MB. You'll come up with some interesting numbers for the amount of requests per second, and when trying to tune Apache sanely, you'll find that you'll hit some upper limits imposed by, for one, the process scheduler in your OS, and two, you'll begin seeing some serious memory usage issues per request (Apache's overhead is something ridiculous like 200kB resident/req).



I will admit I am out of tune with Apache. I've been on IIS for quite a while now.



nrr said:


> If you want to get really general, when I design out ways to scale out


Well, yes, that is how you design anything. Software Engineering 101.



nrr said:


> You'll need a couple of database replicas with resilient storage, a small handful of application replicas, a small handful of front-end cache replicas, some supporting service replicas for things like monitoring, and so on and so forth.


I'm pretty aware of that.

Have you gotten lost in translation somewhere?


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## Ainoko (Dec 13, 2013)

benanderson said:


> It would also be possible to load the server with multiple VMs, although I'm not entirely sure how to expose them to the outside world aside from port forwarding rules. The system can be up and running this weekend.
> 
> As for the additional stuff, I don't see how a project on the scale of something like FA could succeed and live on past our involvement without some type of project documentation and management solution like Trac. WeedFS is also a relatively new solution to simplifying the management of an arbitrarily huge number of files. FA does this weird thing of assigning multiple ID numbers to thumbnails probably to control exactly where they wind up. I'd rather use the submission's ID and append a size identifier and be done with it. No need to store location -- let the file system figure that one out.
> 
> When it comes to web server, I've done ridiculous things with Tomcat in the past, and much prefer strictly typed languages like Java. Again, it's appropriate only if enough people are capable of writing in it. I think we can all recognize that we each have jobs, lives, family, art, hobbies, and other things that prevent any one person from easily implementing a project of this scale from end to end alone. It's best to be a team effort.



I usually start form a minimal Ubuntu Server OS and go from there (I just like that thar Debian structure).
TBH you could use any Wiki system - it doesn't have to be Trac. As long as the management and structure is there, it'll work. Hell, even Sharepoint would work if it was managed correctly! Plus, Trac and Weed-FS seem like quite early stage software. Weed-FS is not even at v1. I'm more for the established norm so I can minimize risk. Why do you think business wait years after a new release to finally upgrade to it?

I myself have Java experience but never in a web setting. PHP is still the goto for people to learn server scripting (along with ASP.NET) and therefore more people will be familiar with it.[/QUOTE]

Benanderson, I have been out of IT school after getting my Bachelors degree in Information Systems Security for 18 months now and am enjoying reading what you, nrr, Mry and Nuzzcat are posting. I may not be fully understanding everything you are talking about, but I can get the gist of what you are saying. I sincerely hope that "Neer, Yak and crew will let you guys help make the software and coding more stable  than it currently is right now.


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## nrr (Dec 13, 2013)

benanderson said:


> Have you gotten lost in translation somewhere?



Just clarifying to make sure we're on the same page, so to speak.


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## Kaeko (Dec 13, 2013)

Someone make a petition lol


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

I know this is a little off topic but..... Benanderson, who did your avatar? Its awesome and I love the style. :3


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## Myr (Dec 13, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I usually start form a minimal Ubuntu Server OS and go from there (I just like that thar Debian structure).
> TBH you could use any Wiki system - it doesn't have to be Trac. As long as the management and structure is there, it'll work. Hell, even Sharepoint would work if it was managed correctly! Plus, Trac and Weed-FS seem like quite early stage software. Weed-FS is not even at v1. I'm more for the established norm so I can minimize risk. Why do you think business wait years after a new release to finally upgrade to it?
> 
> I myself have Java experience but never in a web setting. PHP is still the goto for people to learn server scripting (along with ASP.NET) and therefore more people will be familiar with it.


Alright, points taken on the management and experimental file system for image storage. I'm just offering a server and suggesting software to load on it. I can really put anything on there if we were all to come together and start working on something. Linux, a web server, and database are the bare essentials.

If you can write Java applications and PHP then I think you'll pick up JSP rather quickly. I could even help with that. Again though, just suggesting it as a good option. Honestly, I'd really like to facilitate and design the way a replacement FA would work. I just don't have time to do large parts of the code right now. I specialize in embarrassing subcontractors and ruining budgets by saving resources.


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

I had to use JSP back in university, but tbh I haven't touched it since then. Even PHP is kinda no-mans-land these days in web development, though still my preferred language of choice, if only because I am a stubborn, lazy fool. 

Just as long as nobody is like "ermagerd nodejs"


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## Ainoko (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> I know this is a little off topic but..... Benanderson, who did your avatar? Its awesome and I love the style. :3



I know who did the avatar as I am watching the artist on the main site. The artist is http://www.furaffinity.net/user/denoyelle/


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## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

I would not recommend picking up JSP if you're already good at ASP.NET, but that's another discussion entirely...


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Please don't... petitions are rather silly when it comes to things like this.


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

I would also avoid ASP, but I'm a bitchy snob when it comes to doing anything in proprietary MS languages.


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## Myr (Dec 13, 2013)

Ainoko said:


> Benanderson, I have been out of IT school after getting my Bachelors degree in Information Systems Security for 18 months now and am enjoying reading what you, nrr, Mry and Nuzzcat are posting. I may not be fully understanding everything you are talking about, but I can get the gist of what you are saying. I sincerely hope that "Neer, Yak and crew will let you guys help make the software and coding more stable  than it currently is right now.


Then you're going to love it if we get together and start going with something. I love security!  I would absolutely demand all passwords be salted and SHA256 (or better) hashed while being stored in binary. Prepared statements are also a must these days. Security and speed can coexist.

Honestly, I would advocate for fresh faces and interaction exclusively with Dragoneer based on how Ferrox went. An agile, flexible group of people is best I think. Let's not have baggage from previous tries, and let's not worry about fixing a codebase that dates back to a system designed by someone who thought strings made good primary keys.


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> Honestly, I would advocate for fresh faces and interaction exclusively with Dragoneer based on how Ferrox went. An agile, flexible group of people is best I think. Let's not have baggage from previous tries, and let's not worry about fixing a codebase that dates back to a system designed by someone who thought strings made good primary keys.



Starting from scratch is a tall order, though. You've got two options, really. One, you work with the existing database schema to minimize disruption, but optimizing without optimizing/rewriting the DB seems like a bit of a waste of time. On the other hand, you'd have to make sure you port all the information over from the old DB schema to the new one. Certainly possible, but both are very very difficult. And, worse, both would require even a team working on it to refrain from touching the existing site for quite some time. In the world of an actively running volunteer-only site, that could be months or even years. 

On the other hand, I'd prefer a more compartmentalized approach. Rewrite it, sure. But go feature by feature, starting with core aspects and working your way down. I.e, a rewrite of how messages are delivered and accessed. Then a rewrite of the submission system, browse system, search, etc. Identify features that are no longer desirable and move them into a legacy support state with the intention of sunsetting them at a later date. If you approach things from that angle, it can be a bit tougher to work with, but you have active development on the live site and you don't have the trouble of trying to rebuild Rome from scratch. It's more... building a new city on top of the old city until the old city is completely buried.

EDIT: A UI update would, of course, fit in with the backend rewrite and optimization. But would require dedicated resources working on UI and also updating the UI sitewide. Which could either mean general updates with legacy (to-be-updated) features retaining their old UI to a certain extent, or a complete revamp even before those features had been rewritten.


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## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Nanuk said:


> I would also avoid ASP, but I'm a bitchy snob when it comes to doing anything in proprietary MS languages.



C# is actually a standardized, open language, with Ecma and ISO standards.  The .NET framework has been patent-licensed to the public with the "Open Specification Promise".  That's about as good as it gets without having the drawback of waiting for non-profits to keep the technology up to date.


----------



## Ainoko (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> Then you're going to love it if we get together and start going with something. I love security!  I would absolutely demand all passwords be salted and SHA256 (or better) hashed while being stored in binary. Prepared statements are also a must these days. Security and speed can coexist.
> 
> Honestly, I would advocate for fresh faces and interaction exclusively with Dragoneer based on how Ferrox went. An agile, flexible group of people is best I think. Let's not have baggage from previous tries, and let's not worry about fixing a codebase that dates back to a system designed by someone who thought strings made good primary keys.



To be honest I haven't done much on the IT side since graduating as getting a job in the field is damn near impossible for someone who just got their degree. The only experience I have right now in IT is being the defacto IT guru on my home network fixing my roommates PC problems (something that I have not had the pleasure of doing since I locked down his new computer preventing him from repeating his stupidity on his old computers)


----------



## rjbartrop (Dec 13, 2013)

Nice code is all well and good, but I would say that what is more important than anything is a team that's willing to keep at it.  The nicest interface in the world running on the smoothest system is useless if it's all going to be abandoned in six months because it isn't fun anymore.


----------



## StevenRoy (Dec 13, 2013)

*Say whaaaaa?*



nuzzcat said:


> C# is actually a standardized, open language, with Ecma and ISO standards.  The .NET framework has been patent-licensed to the public with the "Open Specification Promise"...


Did someone say ".NET framework"?

I oppose that idea. I oppose that framework's existence. Let's just code the entire site in Visual Basic, why don't we?

Seriously, I like the idea of doing it in Java. It's not my favorite - Perl 5 is my favorite - but it will do.



rjbartrop said:


> Nice code is all well and good, but I would say that what is more important than anything is a team that's willing to keep at it.  The nicest interface in the world running on the smoothest system is useless if it's all going to be abandoned in six months because it isn't fun anymore.


Or if it's all going to be abandoned in 2-3 days when the real FA returns to being fully functional again! (Although I'm sure it'll be due for some downtime a month or two later, and then, naturally, interest in our little project here will spark right back up again!)


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

*Re: Say whaaaaa?*



StevenRoy said:


> Or if it's all going to be abandoned in 2-3 days when the real FA returns to being fully functional again! (Although I'm sure it'll be due for some downtime a month or two later, and then, naturally, interest in our little project here will spark right back up again!)



Which is why a team that sticks at it is important. You don't need people willing to do a rewrite, you need people willing to take on the old code as well as the new.


----------



## rjbartrop (Dec 13, 2013)

*Re: Say whaaaaa?*



StevenRoy said:


> Or if it's all going to be abandoned in 2-3 days when the real FA returns to being fully functional again! (Although I'm sure it'll be due for some downtime a month or two later, and then, naturally, interest in our little project here will spark right back up again!)



This would be one of the things that falls under the general category of "isn't fun anymore".


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

*Re: Say whaaaaa?*



StevenRoy said:


> Did someone say ".NET framework"?
> 
> I oppose that idea. I oppose that framework's existence. Let's just code the entire site in Visual Basic, why don't we?
> 
> ...



A little confused here.  Are you saying it's inferior to Java?  I could argue that it isn't.  C# is much more modern than Java.  The language was designed intelligently, with a balance of language features and simplicity, a balance which Java frankly falls short with. The IDE is IMO better than any of the available Java IDEs (yes, I have tried them all).  

Or are you saying that it's too proprietary?  Because Oracle has been suing people over the Java APIs, while Microsoft has made a pledge not to sue over the .NET framework.

Some of you guys still hate Bill Gates for stealing the MS DOS source code back in the day.  It's not your grand-daddies Microsoft anymore.


----------



## Ainoko (Dec 13, 2013)

GamerFox said:


> Just noticed that the number has been bumped up to 86%. Functionality may return before midnight if my projection is correct, but I really hope that once the site is back to full functionality, the staff focus very hard on preventing another crash (and subsequent shitstorm).



Thanks for winning me a dinner, your prediction is way off.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Dec 13, 2013)

There's a lot of wild ideas being thrown around here, will be interesting to see if any of them actually get implemented.

But for the most part, FA on my end is running faster then it ever has since I joined up. Whether that's a placebo effect or not, I will take it on good faith that Dargoneer and the team are holding up their end of the bargain.

I guess those SSD's are really making a difference.


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## Trunchbull (Dec 13, 2013)

Once Yak realises that when he dies, there will be hundreds of other people to take his place and actually do work that doesn't end in infamy, he'll buckle up and learn how to do modern day coding. maybe. 

Though i do like the whole 'less is more' thing. FA isn't trying to overcompensate with JS like deviantart is, which slows down the computer. i like the simplicity, but not how badly it's coded. v_v


----------



## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 13, 2013)

*Re: Insert clever title here.*



StevenRoy said:


> Oh, that settles it: I like you now!
> 
> (...And suddenly I really wanna finish that C64 demo I was working on a few years ago...)


Any commodore games out there that have you get eaten by hungry animals?

BTW: Regarding how to fix FA: REVERSE THE POLARITY.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Trunchbull said:


> Once Yak realises that when he dies, there will be hundreds of other people to take his place and actually do work that doesn't end in infamy, he'll buckle up and learn how to do modern day coding. maybe.
> 
> Though i do like the whole 'less is more' thing. FA isn't trying to overcompensate with JS like deviantart is, which slows down the computer. i like the simplicity, but not how badly it's coded. v_v



Heavy Javascript does not automatically make browsers lag (refer to Gmail webmail), but most ordinary JS coders do not make efficient JS code.


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## DarkOverord (Dec 13, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> I've never seen anything go through so much hardware so often.



Busy servers do. It's kinda just basic logic, the more you use something, the more it degrades over time. I can't speak for how unusual FA's history with hardware is though.


Mr. Fox said:


> There's a lot of wild ideas being thrown around here, will be interesting to see if any of them actually get implemented.
> 
> But for the most part, FA on my end is running faster then it ever has since I joined up. Whether that's a placebo effect or not, I will take it on good faith that Dargoneer and the team are holding up their end of the bargain.
> 
> I guess those SSD's are really making a difference.



Yes and no. The better hardware has improved the speeds for an end user, along with general improvement of internet speeds etc.

But the site literally could operate a lot better if it was updated out of the last decade with something more modern. The boosts gained over time are getting hampered by old methodology etc.


Mazz said:


> Thanks for your hard FREE OF CHARGE work for your FREE website.


Not that you'll read this but hey, venting frustration. The idea that a site/service/etc. that is free of charge means that it is immune to criticisms in the way it operates, the way it is run, and the way it's staff handles it, is frankly, bullshit.


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## kayfox (Dec 13, 2013)

So I guess Im going to weigh in on this with bullet points:

1.  Replacing the conventional disks with SSDs is not going to improve the situation, depending on the configuration and types of SSDs is will likely hurt the situation.
1a.  Buying a NetApp would probably fix the problem, but thats kinda out there in the land of nuking the anthill.
1b.  But then you get to deal with hard problems when the NetApp gets maxed out.
2.  Giving the database server a break is not going to improve the situation in the long run, because the issue will just build up again.
3.  While its nice to sit there and play armchair systems architect, we dont know a whole lot about what exactly is going on, so any specific solutions is just guessing.
4.  While Yak may have his issues, he is trying and he does get discouraged by the treatment he gets.
5.  I can vouch for NRR being a wizard.
6.  It does not really matter what distro you use as long as its vaguely suitable and you know how to deal with it.
7.  Apache is a dog, its fat, bloated and annoying. (So is IIS for that matter)
8.  The solution is def going to be in a code rewrite.
8a.  The community should be involved in the rewrite, but not design by committee, you have a few architects and they build the thing out.
8b.  I think the best approach would be to build a structure where you have roughly 3 groups working on code:
8bI.  A group that works on the core structure.
8bII.  A group that works on workalike feature parity with the existing code.
8bIII. A group that works on future features and addons.
8c.  Once the new code is ready you cut over, depending on how workalike it is you might even be able to cut just a few users over at a time, this is where load balancer ninja magic works.
8d. Once the cutover is complete you can work on removing FA's bad parts and replacing them with better parts, if your third team was working well this can happen quickly.
9. FA will need to figure out a way to make money to survive.
9a.  One idea I had was that FA could charge $10 per new account or charge $10 a year for access to new/advanced features.  
9b.  To keep the pace, the early access features would be rotated into the features every user has, but since premium users get more features as time goes along they keep their added value.
9c.  There might be some value in establishing FA as a 501(c)7 social club and appointing a board of directors to oversee its management.
9cI.  This BoD would set long term goals and strategies, they would appoint or hire management to oversee the actual implementation of these goals.
9cII.  Generally speaking the best organizations have a BoD that is involved but not exerting undue control over the organization.
9cIII.  See Rainfurrest Anthropomorphics International for reference.
9d.  Making FA have pay for features will push it towards being run as a business/professionaly.  This is a good thing.
10.  One thing I have seen in this thread is alot of armchair engineering.  This never turns out well.
10a.  Really we shouldint be guessing, the details should be clear to many.
10b.  The finite details, logs, stats everything that shouldint be public should still be reviewed by more than one or two people.
10c.  It is obvious from this thread that there is a large collection of furries with varied skillsets that could each contribute ot the smooth operation of this website.
10d.  Some of these people have given up because they have been told to wait a month or so while stuff its setup to allow collaborative work on FA, but nothing ever comes of it.
11.  Furries really should get used to using more than one site, its a pain, you cant be lazy about it, but you get out to see the world.
11a.  Also, you should get out to see the world.   I may or may not be planning to circumnavigate the globe as a vacation.
12.  The federated identity ideas that Eevee had are awesome, I would love to be able to favorite stuff on another site and have it show up in my FA faves, or more.
13.  Go donate at least once, that way you actually have a chip in the game.  I did.  Also: you can use billpay even!
14.  The hardware strategies of this website are questionable.
14a.  You have to be a really large player where building your own kit really works out well.
14b.  Buying stuff from the likes of IBM, Dell or HP allowes you to have a standard set of parts to fix issues that crop up.
14bI.  No snarks about any of these players, everyone has differing experiences.  Ive had good and bad experiences with all of these and as an IBMer I find it odd that all my new servers are HP and my new laptops and desktop are Dell.
14bII.  Also, people here need to learn that specs are not everthing, yes server hardware costs alot.  I have a HP NONSTOP server that originally cost four times as much as the equivalent DL360, this is because its one of the most reliable platforms in the world.  Server hardware is not the same as desktop hardware and neither is business class machine the same as home machines.
14c.  Standardization is how the Bell System became the most efficient machine in the world.
14d.  Standardization allows me to have one kit of DL360G5 parts and one spare DL360G5 and be able to respond to a downed ESXi machine by fixing it or swapping it in a matter of an hour.
14e.  Standardization also allows you to cheaply build up a kit of spare parts, if all of your machines are different you get bit everytime something fails or you spend tons buying all the spare parts.
15.  The cloud is not the answer.
16.  Just a little bit about me:  
16a.  I am a support engineer specializing in web application security for a major manufacturer of load balancers headquartered in Seattle. 
16b.  On the side I practically live to help run the fifth largest furry convention in the world (RF).
16c.  I also have EE training and work on Radio and related stuff in my spare time.
16d.  I have an unhealthy obsession with esoteric computers and operating systems.

Comments welcome in any medium.


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

OK obviously this is super long so I'll only respond to things I want to specifically comment on. 

8. Agree that a rewrite is necessary, though I still disagree with the notion of "Rewrite all the things, replace old site all at once". That's unlikely to happen with a group of volunteer coders and it's hard to keep a group going forever. 
8a. Never design by committee. Design, iterate on community feedback, but ultimately a decision has to be made that's best for usability and that might not be immediately what people jump to. 
8b(all). Agree that dev teams would be ideal, but again unlikely with a volunteer force and baby steps would probably be best for now. 

9. Agree that money is necessary, but I don't think a somethingawful approach would be best. A premium membership option could work, with more of a focus on the supporter aspect, and come with some additional bells and whistles that normal accounts don't have. But this shouldn't inherently limit non-premium users from having a "full" experience. 
9c. FA's parent company is already registered as an LLC which implies there's some board at the helm, whom it consists of I'm not sure. I'm not a tax expert, but any not-for-profit group is ridiculously difficult to organize and maintain. 501(c)(7) is very specific on income sources, however. Income is limited to only members, which means any sort of sponsorship or advertising would probably be a no-no. And, again, nonprofits = super difficult. (Though I could see FA being classified as a church...) 

10. It's one thing when discussing it like its fact, everything here has pretty much been clearly marked as conjecture. There's nothing wrong with a lively engineering discussion. 

11. Telling people to either suck it up or get out is a silly way to approach things. 
11a. If this happens, i demand pics. 

13. One problem FA has is the niche of allowing mature content, it makes donations a bitch. It makes payment processing a bitch, too (relevant to 9, really). 

15. Confused about this one coming up... haha.


----------



## TimeShift (Dec 13, 2013)

Dragoneer said:


> [...]mounted into the backlog.[...]



ok, as benanderson already outed himself, I'd like to be straight here, too: I'm also working in a datacenter, being responsible for the DC-infrastructure (DC for DataCenter) at two locations, including several thousand servers and numerous software - mostly SAP and lots of middleware (including DB2, Oracle, MS-SQL and so on) - since four years. Before that I was working as Certified Tester and Quality Manager for the systems running on the datacenters. In other words: I know pretty well what happened here, because that's what I see in a different scale about a dozen times a year.

First off: The word "backlog" doesn't mean the database was "too busy to handle". That's what the error log is there for (running a SyslogNG and at least SOMETIMES looking at what the processes prompted there would be quite helpful).
"Backlog" is the SQL-word for "recovery". It means the database or the entire server CRASHED beyond self-healing (like: trimming the processes, writing error logs and so on) and is about to RESTORE his database.

Short explanation: If your database is crashed and corrupted, you usually take your most-recent backup and play it over the database. The database starts up, looks into its transfer logs and says "Gosh, I'm lacking a lot of stuff! Need to process all that to be up-to-date again!" and starts working through all of it's already-done transaction logs to verify everything's in the right order and working as intended.

So, if "backlog" is the problem, then the REAL issue would be: WHY did the database crash?


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## DarkOverord (Dec 13, 2013)

Nanuk said:


> 8. Agree that a rewrite is necessary, though I still disagree with the notion of "Rewrite all the things, replace old site all at once". That's unlikely to happen with a group of volunteer coders and it's hard to keep a group going forever.



While true, I think at least the backend needs this doing, no? And that will kinda knock on what the user needs to use right? TimeShift there, along with Ben kinda both pointed out, that while hardware failures are indeed a thing that happens, there's clearly some software issues going on ("the REAL issue would be: WHY did the database crash?"). Given FA's age, and that for the most part the site has barely changed on the end product, it's not hard to guess that the backend hasn't changed much either.

Call me dumb, but surely that's just a sign that it needs a complete rewrite all at once to prevent dependencies on old legacy code?


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> Call me dumb, but surely that's just a sign that it needs a complete rewrite all at once to prevent dependencies on old legacy code?



Sorry, to clarify I didn't mean that a complete rewrite shouldn't happen at some point. But the goal should be to rewrite parts of the site at a time. Since it's a live product, and purely volunteer staffed, a complete rewrite with an on/off switch would mean developers working behind the curtains, so to speak, for a really long time. By re-writing one feature at a time, you gradually cycle the entire site with a new version. It provides a softer transition for users and staff, by allowing the changes to sink in over time vs. all at once, while continually updating the site and letting people know it IS being worked on.


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## Shiekra Tora (Dec 13, 2013)

Traediras said:


> It really is a frustration where there's a lot of people willing to volunteer their time and energy for something that is free but unable to do so for whatever reason...
> 
> FA is really the centerpiece of the furry community, and yet the community is kept out from helping to maintain it....
> 
> Just sad that we can't do anything about it, because nobody will let us.



I can't like this enough. This sums EVERYTHING up perfectly.


----------



## FatalSyndrome (Dec 13, 2013)

Hope everything's goin' alright and stuff gets back up to speed soon. I'm sure it'll be okay!


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## Amaroq (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> If your boss decides to tell you to get off your ass and get to work, are you going to try to get him fired? No, you're going to do your job.
> 
> In this situation, it's the exact same thing- We, the people, are tired of having ineptitude and ignorance be the only markers we've seen for this site.



"We the people" don't own this site, and "we the people" are not the bosses of the admins of this site. It's the property of whoever owns it, and by extension whoever they entrust to help run it.

We are valued *customers*, and as such, we *do* have a right to complain, boycott, etc. But don't act like you're entitled to be given a working art site at the expense of someone else's efforts. That's the only thing that's really annoyed me so far. I may look down on incompetent coding if I have evidence for it, but I'll never believe that I'm entitled to be given a competently coded site just because I desire it. Critique the admins all you want. But just remember who this site really belongs to.

Anyway, I seem to remember a while back they were doing some Project Phoenix or something where they were gonna recode FA from the ground up. Did they ever do that? If we're using that recode, I seem to remember they decided to code it in *Python*, which in my opinion seems like a really stupid decision. Pick a language that's designed to be a server-side scripting language. It'll probably be optimized better than someone's attempt to replicate server-side scripting in Python.

I could be completely wrong though and this site is not written in Python. Just going on something I vaguely remember a long time ago.


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## AmaruKaze (Dec 13, 2013)

Amaroq said:


> "We the people" don't own this site, and "we the people" are not the bosses of the admins of this site. It's the property of whoever owns it, and by extension whoever they entrust to help run it.
> 
> We are valued *customers*, and as such, we *do* have a right to complain, boycott, etc. But don't act like you're entitled to be given a working art site at the expense of someone else's efforts. That's the only thing that's really annoyed me so far. I may look down on incompetent coding if I have evidence for it, but I'll never believe that I'm entitled to be given a competently coded site just because I desire it. Critique the admins all you want. But just remember who this site really belongs to.
> 
> ...



Alright first of all I want to point one thing out.

We may not be the legal owners of this site, which is Dragoneer. The code copyright if there is one would probably belong to Yak and other coders who have already left the staff because of Yak. Now given this let's see how this site is financed, does Dragoneer pay for it? Well I do remember they are using advertisement, so that is kind of a sale isn't it. If one side fails to deliver I guess one could really speak of an issue here. Plus additionally the ten-thousands of dollars which were raised by the community ( Yeah those tiny, tiny customers that do not own the site and additionally do not owe Dragoneer anything ).

Whilst perfectly and legally owning the site Dragoneer does not own the community, nor the artist, nor the art on Furaffinity. What he does own is at most the empty site, so with that in mind we cannot credit really anything to the administration. Neither the visit numbers, why people are here and why this place is an awesome hangout. Spoiler: It isn't the coding nor the website itself.

On Topic again.

Yes it is Python and Pylon, which is not really a broad spectrum of coding that will be used. Therefore expertise is hard to find and also from what I understood reading of project Ferrox, is that there are many tool kits in use which do have advantages but also huge disadvantages. Yak proved quite resistent to calls to change the coding language as he does not really look forward to letting other people work on his "baby".


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## Traediras (Dec 13, 2013)

Traediras said:


> It really is a frustration where there's a lot of people willing to volunteer their time and energy for something that is free but unable to do so for whatever reason... FA is really the centerpiece of the furry community, and yet the community is kept out from helping to maintain it. Whatever malicious threats in the past happened most likely happened to bring to light the state of disrepair the site is in and not much else. Just sad that we can't do anything about it, because nobody will let us.


Thanks to those that agree with this.

An addendum: The community also banded together for the FA donation drive, on the proviso that we would be getting a better experience. I still believe though that the best way to tackle this whole debacle is at the root of the cause, and that would involve building the site again from the ground up. If that's what's needed to be done then so be it, there's a good chunk of people in the community that would be willing to help with any menial task (I would be quite happy assisting with UX, having been doing graphic design for a couple years).

Neer, the community is here to help. *Let us help you guys.* It makes you look infinitely better on paper, and we all get to fix the ship, so honestly it'd be a win-win for everyone.


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## nrr (Dec 13, 2013)

Amaroq said:


> If we're using that recode, I seem to remember they decided to code it in *Python*, which in my opinion seems like a really stupid decision. Pick a language that's designed to be a server-side scripting language. It'll probably be optimized better than someone's attempt to replicate server-side scripting in Python.



Out of curiosity, what led you to this conclusion?


----------



## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

kayfox said:


> 9. FA will need to figure out a way to make money to survive.
> 9a.  One idea I had was that FA could charge $10 per new account or charge $10 a year for access to new/advanced features.
> 9b.  To keep the pace, the early access features would be rotated into the features every user has, but since premium users get more features as time goes along they keep their added value.


I don't see money itself being a problem. People would donate IF they were confident that the money would actually go to fix the issues, but as things sit right now people have no reason to trust Yak and Dragoneer to do anything but buy the most expensive servers they can to run creaky code that's on the verge of collapse.

I would love nothing more than to setup my paypal for a $10 a month donation to FA, but there are all sorts of causes I want to support and I have to honestly ask myself, "Where can I put my time, money, and effort so that it does the most good?" We all have our quirks that others find annoying as hell, i'm sure Dragoneer and Yak are great human beings, but from my perspective, FA is like the public school system. Throwing money at it isn't going to do any good whatsoever until systemic changes are made first.


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## benanderson (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> I know this is a little off topic but..... Benanderson, who did your avatar? Its awesome and I love the style. :3


I drew it:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6719939/



Ainoko said:


> I know who did the avatar as I am watching the artist on the main site. The artist is http://www.furaffinity.net/user/denoyelle/


????


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## benanderson (Dec 13, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> Busy servers do. It's kinda just basic logic, the more you use something, the more it degrades over time. I can't speak for how unusual FA's history with hardware is though.


Busy servers are just busy. To go down as frequently as FAs is pretty much impossible in my experience outside of sheer ineptitude.
The only hardware failure I've had recently at work is a SAP server failing to come back up after being shutdown for the first time in _three years_ (possibly four). Other recent (as in, this year) failures at work were all on hardware nearly a decade old.


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## benanderson (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> Alright, points taken on the management and experimental file system for image storage. I'm just offering a server and suggesting software to load on it. I can really put anything on there if we were all to come together and start working on something. Linux, a web server, and database are the *bare essentials*.



This is what I mean, though; keep is simple and just get something working, refined and reliable. All the other extras like load balancing, backup, redundancy, statistics etc. etc. can come later once we have something working.

Start small, fan outwards.

Its like a car: You don't start working on the engine and leather upholstery before the clay model is finished.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Amaroq said:


> "We the people" don't own this site, and "we the people" are not the bosses of the admins of this site. It's the property of whoever owns it, and by extension whoever they entrust to help run it.
> 
> We are valued *customers*, and as such, we *do* have a right to complain, boycott, etc. But don't act like you're entitled to be given a working art site at the expense of someone else's efforts. That's the only thing that's really annoyed me so far. I may look down on incompetent coding if I have evidence for it, but I'll never believe that I'm entitled to be given a competently coded site just because I desire it. Critique the admins all you want. But just remember who this site really belongs to.





Wait, we are not entitled to be given a working art site when we give them money in the form of donations and ad space revenue? 

With all the art, music, poetry, photography etc. that is on it, that all belongs to Dragoneer too, and when we cant access or modify it, tough s***?  




Wow..  thanks for setting us straight there.


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## Socks the Fox (Dec 13, 2013)

benanderson said:


> This is what I mean, though; keep is simple and just get something working, refined and reliable. All the other extras like load balancing, backup, redundancy, statistics etc. etc. can come later once we have something working.
> 
> Start small, fan outwards.
> 
> Its like a car: You don't start working on the engine and leather upholstery before the clay model is finished.



That's what I'm doing with my site. I just have a basic DebAMP setup, and the actual site is based heavily on some COTS software that I tacked my own extensions on. I chose to do it that way so I can focus on what makes my site unique. I don't even have all the features I want implemented yet, I just got the bare minimum working and can add in the extras as I get them online. It's far easier to test when you have a working codebase to rely on.


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## Ainoko (Dec 13, 2013)

benanderson said:


> I drew it:
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6719939/
> 
> 
> ????



I didn't know that you did the art, for that I do apologize. I do have to say that both your style and Denoyelle's are similar, which led me to the wrong conclusion.


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## sawarineko (Dec 13, 2013)

At first everyone cried how there wasn't an update.
Now you get this message and even an update on the main FA page, and everyone's complaining again...
well at least i am happy to finally hear something about what's going on!
and I hope the migration won't take too long , and for now there's nothing you can do but wait and maybe watch a good show or play outside.


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## Myr (Dec 13, 2013)

For the JS stuff it's important to remember that JS is best used to improve the user experience. Offloading server operations to the client can certainly help share the load. However, too much of it quickly bogs down clients especially when you add in all sorts of complicated UI elements that clutter things up DA-style. I hate that. Lean and mean is the way to be. JS would be a huge asset in the submission of content and management of accounts. It could easily replace a 3-page submission form with a single-page solution that improves the user experience, helps reduce the number of server operations, and doesn't add a lot of development overhead (assuming people are familiar with things like JQuery). There are plenty of other places where JS can consolidate operations and avoid full page reloads. It's an asset that, unfortunately, has been abused on some competing sites.



Nanuk said:


> Sorry, to clarify I didn't mean that a complete rewrite shouldn't happen at some point. But the goal should be to rewrite parts of the site at a time. Since it's a live product, and purely volunteer staffed, a complete rewrite with an on/off switch would mean developers working behind the curtains, so to speak, for a really long time. By re-writing one feature at a time, you gradually cycle the entire site with a new version. It provides a softer transition for users and staff, by allowing the changes to sink in over time vs. all at once, while continually updating the site and letting people know it IS being worked on.


I advocate for a complete rewrite from scratch because I know that FA started out as a project put together by someone who thought strings made good primary keys for a database. I saw bits and pieces of the code a long time ago, and today they would make my eyes bleed given what I know now compared to how little I knew then. It is my opinion that attempting to reverse engineer and understand what they did in the context of a system not intended to be worked on by many people is a far more frustrating, daunting, and complicated task than starting fresh. I'd rather start fresh from best practices than try to jam best practices into an antiquated system if I don't have to.


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## Wakboth (Dec 13, 2013)

Okay. I'm not an IT professional, or even a serious hobbyist tinkerer (I'd classify myself as an interested and hopefully informed computer user), but. Based on what the actual IT people are saying, and what has been said before in other similar threads when FA has chocked on itself, it seems to me that there are two main problems.

*1) The site coding.* It's behind the times, based on outdated ideas, and fixed piecemeal here and there, when it needs major rewrites and modernisations. This is especially a problem because yak, apprently, is too stubborn to get on with the times, too otherwise occupied to keep things running smoothly, and too proprietory to allow others to do much anything about the whole thing. This is the more -immediate issue. Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to fix without tackling the second problem.

*2) Administration* Basically, FA is not run or administrated in a professional fashion. I don't know Dragoneer, but I have no reason to think he's not a nice enough guy in person. But he's pretty clearly not competent, or willing, to manage FA properly. There are any number of hobby and fan sites which, while also run by volunteers and hobbyists, are managed much better, because the people in charge _are in charge_. If yak can't or won't do anything to fix the code, then someone else should be brought in to help or take over the work. All the evidence, though, suggests that this isn't happening because it's never happened on any of the times something like this has happened before. 'neer runs this site as it was still just his personal project, staffing the administration with his friends, and trying to avoid conflict. Which is nice and all, but it's no way to manage a big site like Furaffinity.


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## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

sawarineko said:


> At first everyone cried how there wasn't an update.
> Now you get this message and even an update on the main FA page, and everyone's complaining again...
> well at least i am happy to finally hear something about what's going on!
> and I hope the migration won't take too long , and for now there's nothing you can do but wait and maybe watch a good show or play outside.





We are complaining because the updates are coming maybe once a day, and it has been in read only mode how many days now?  4? 5? 

Updates are nice, but they hardly give any information, and it hardly seems to be moving along. 



LOL at "watch a good show or play outside".  We have been doing so for close to a week now.. and still they struggle to get the site up..  Nice oversimplification there.


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## Freehaven (Dec 13, 2013)

Wakboth said:


> If yak can't or won't do anything to fix the code, then someone else should be brought in to help or take over the work.



Dear Dragoneer: please listen to this for once. If the guy supposedly behind the FA "coding" "team" doesn't want to put in the work to fix FA's myriad problems (some going back as far as the time I joined the site in 2006!), you (and only you) need to kick him in the ass -- either to get him to do the work or to shove him out the door.

Your service (and FA is a service to the furry community) can and will become irrelevant if this crap keeps up, 'Neer. Get your shit together.


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> I advocate for a complete rewrite from scratch because I know that FA started out as a project put together by someone who thought strings made good primary keys for a database. I saw bits and pieces of the code a long time ago, and today they would make my eyes bleed given what I know now compared to how little I knew then. It is my opinion that attempting to reverse engineer and understand what they did in the context of a system not intended to be worked on by many people is a far more frustrating, daunting, and complicated task than starting fresh. I'd rather start fresh from best practices than try to jam best practices into an antiquated system if I don't have to.



The trick will be migrating the data of the art, stories, music, journals, etc. I doubt the users will appreciate it if the site was wiped clean and had to start from scratch with everything gone.


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## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

SomethingAwful had this same issue where the main coder for the site completely stopped doing work on the site no matter how much Lowtax pleaded. Only thing that fixed it was a new site dev. It is likely friendship is getting in the way of the site progressing. What might improve community morale is some kind of road-map and timetable of when stuff will be done, rather than random fixes popping up from out of nowhere. Gets more attention to the site being maintained than introducing random fixes at whatever interval deemed fitting. Love this site tho, not trying to be a dick. A random idea that might get donations to the site, have people pledge x dollars to be paid when a feature or set of features will be successfully implemented. It gives donations to the site and offers incentives for things to be done. win-win for all parties.


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## LadyDarkSphynx (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> The trick will be migrating the data of the art, stories, music, journals, etc. I doubt the users will appreciate it if the site was wiped clean and had to start from scratch with everything gone.



That would be the best way to kill off FA entirely. Voice of experience here. Had to port a very large, active furry forum between forum programs two or three times after losing programmers. The community consistently lost members during those transfers that couldn't maintain database continuity. When years of work goes down the drain it is so much easier to just move on to new places. X.x


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## jayhusky (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> The trick will be migrating the data of the art, stories, music, journals, etc. I doubt the users will appreciate it if the site was wiped clean and had to start from scratch with everything gone.



Sure it would be a long/laborious task, but I don't see it as impossible.


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## Jotaku (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> SomethingAwful had this same issue where the main coder for the site completely stopped doing work on the site no matter how much Lowtax pleaded. Only thing that fixed it was a new site dev. It is likely friendship is getting in the way of the site progressing. What might improve community morale is some kind of road-map and timetable of when stuff will be done, rather than random fixes popping up from out of nowhere. Gets more attention to the site being maintained than introducing random fixes at whatever interval deemed fitting. Love this site tho, not trying to be a dick.



Except they have been making promises for things to get done--upgrades, new features, new layouts, etc--for YEARS with no real progress.  Given that, I doubt the staff would be able to properly keep up on a time table of any kind.


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## Xantouke (Dec 13, 2013)

sawarineko said:


> At first everyone cried how there wasn't an update.
> Now you get this message and even an update on the main FA page, and everyone's complaining again...
> well at least i am happy to finally hear something about what's going on!
> and I hope the migration won't take too long , and for now there's nothing you can do but wait and maybe watch a good show or play outside.



I'm sorry, but there has been a sprinkling of people in this thread that said something similar to this effect and frankly I'm getting annoyed. SO, no. Stop right there.

The problem is, this was *unplanned downtime*. There was *no announcement* about there going to be maintenance or something similar and that the site will be down for X amount of time. If it was planned, *no one would be complaining* (unless you're one of those who only get on FA for the porn or don't read the announcements or a combination thereof) because people would have had time to get things together. Such as commissioners, contests, bids, etc. and where to get in contact or if the bids/auctions are postponed while the site is down.

The site white-paged, there was a twitter announcement on them fixing the problem, site comes back up. A few hours later, the site completely crashes and there's no word from ANYONE for a long period of time. 
And to quote from yourself, "_well at least i am happy to finally hear something about what's going on!_" when some kind of update to what's going on is released, but even then it's half-assed and not very informative or is contradictory. And then apparently there's a server migration going on, with a shoddy announcement posted on the read-only site with the 53% stated progress with no ETA whatsoever. And you would think that management would continuously update the announcement and tell people what's going on. It took *over **24 hours* for an update to come through, with 86% progress. Still no ETA. And here we are now.

The second problem is, *this happens all the time.* Which is a problem for a site like FA, since it's pretty much the cornerstone hub of the furry community. It's THE site where furries go, as such it has a large amount of traffic, and the site hasn't been updated to keep up with it in YEARS.

So, for *casual user*, much like yourself, I imagine, it's not really a big deal and you can just sit back and wait it out.

While for users, like myself, who have *some form of business* on the site, we're sitting here twiddling our thumbs anxiously because we have no clue what the hell is happening and we have things that need to get done or need business.
While it is true that we could go to some other sites/markets, those places aren't usually kept up to date or the clientele just _isn't there._ Why? Because of the same reason stated above, FA is the center of the furry community and that's where all the business is.

So if anyone else wants to make snide comments about how people should relax and stop complaining, or how this is a "FREE SITE" and us users "SHOULDN'T COMPLAIN", then you can sit on your hands and shut it. Not a word. Because there are countless other FREE SITES that run better than FA and the users of FA are getting tired of it after having to deal with it for YEARS.

Ã²HÃ³


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

jayhusky said:


> Sure it would be a long/laborious task, but I don't see it as impossible.



A lot of testing and a lot of planning. Probably need a seperate severe with a complete copy of the site to make sure everything can be transfered and be compatible with the new coding.


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## Lotix (Dec 13, 2013)

B-but Xan! How selfish we're being for wanting a new site after 6+ years!!

"Oh you just dropped that on the floor but you're still going to put it in my sandwich? Thats OK, I'll take and pay for it, you worked so hard and gosh, I could never request another sandwich, you just worked way too hard on that. I'm just so happy to have my shit sandwich, I don't care what condition it comes in."


Edit:
What I really want to know is, realistically, if the site was to be completely redone and all the images/music/etc. got transferred over. How long would it take? In the other thread 



Trpdwarf said:


> You want to know why it is difficult to build an improvement to FA? Lets start with the fact that FA was not originally coded by people like Yak. So to those going "well Yak doesn't know how to code obviously otherwise we wouldn't have these problems" think about it like buying an old apartment complex that has been around for 60-80 years. There are tons of people who live there and rely on that place being there because it's where they have everything and it would be difficult if they had to move. But this complex, there is no way to beat around the bush. It needs work. A lot of work. Work that won't accomplish itself in a few days, or even a few weeks. It may take a few years while trying to accommodate the real needs of the current tenets.



Something just doesn't seem accurate to me. I can't possibly see it taking years for the site to be down to be redone. Someone like benanderson maybe correct me if im wrong in my assumption.

And if this is true, who REALLY did code the original FA??? And why did we start with such ancient code???


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## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 13, 2013)

Lotix said:


> B-but Xan! How selfish we're being for wanting a new site after 6+ years!!
> 
> "Oh you just dropped that on the floor but you're still going to put it in my sandwich? Thats OK, I'll take and pay for it, you worked so hard and gosh, I could never request another sandwich, you just worked way too hard on that. I'm just so happy to have my shit sandwich, I don't care what condition it comes in."



I would put in a south park quote here but my mind's telling me not to....lol


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## jayhusky (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> A lot of testing and a lot of planning. Probably need a seperate severe with a complete copy of the site to make sure everything can be transfered and be compatible with the new coding.



True, this would be a viable excuse for taking time over it, you'd not want to rush the conversion of 12 million submissions and a few million journals/notes


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## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 13, 2013)

jayhusky said:


> True, this would be a viable excuse for taking time over it, you'd not want to rush the conversion of 12 million submissions and a few million journals/notes



12,261,060 to be exact.


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## maxgoof (Dec 13, 2013)

So, it's been another 24 hours, and it still says 86%.

Can we get an update? Kthxbye.


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> So, it's been another 24 hours, and it still says 86%.
> 
> Can we get an update? Kthxbye.



http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/826810-Site-Status-12-12-2013

This was his last update.


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## Freehaven (Dec 13, 2013)

Okay, and why hasn't the whole "we need to replace drives" thing popped up on the front page?

When people talk about how 'Neer and Co. don't seem to give a shit about the FA community, they mean crap like this: not keeping everyone updated via the main site on a regular basis. Not everyone visits the forums or follows the FA Twitter/Dragoneer's Twitter. Everyone who uses FA does go to FA, however, so why can't 'Neer and Co. keep the main site updated with any regularity when it comes to things like this?


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## BeautifulDestiny (Dec 13, 2013)

maxgoof said:


> So, it's been another 24 hours, and it still says 86%.
> 
> Can we get an update? Kthxbye.



An update would be greatly appreciated by much of the users of FA. :3. I'm not going to do any chastising about the site only for the fact, it has been done enough in other threads and in these, visa verse...But, I see that this site does have many problems. Especially, with the unplanned down times, etc., I think that there should be a planned downtime at least once a month, at most once a week. It would give time to code the site to make it bigger and better. Through the downtime's you would be able to check issues, code the site for a better everything. It's just a mere suggestion, but at least plan the downtime's so that you can create a site that won't have many unplanned ones. Check if there are any issues at least once or twice in two weeks. 

I know what I'm saying doesn't make any since, but I run three or four role-play websites and I have to at least plan a downtime for editing, artwork to post on the site, etc., It's a lot of work to run a website... but everyone that helps run it should take into consideration that their needs to be updates in coding, the site viewing, etc., o3o. I run in too a lot of problems with my sites so I do have to plan downtime's so that I can fix them. And I tell you what, it's very difficult... but in the end that my members are happy with the site is all that matters. <3 

Plus, if the site did go through updates and got rid of the problems... it would make a lot of people smile, you would get compliments on how well the site is ran, etc.,

Then again, I may not know much of what I am talking about, but... Hey, it's just a mere thought. ;n; Please, don't attack me.


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## Gryphoneer (Dec 13, 2013)

I've heard conspiracy theories Yak got something on Piche and therefore has infinite job security.

But at this point it's clear the answer is much simpler; he's irreplaceable because only he can make sense of his indecipherable code.

Things won't improve and further degrade as long as that crook isn't chucked out on his ear.


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## Kurin (Dec 13, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> I've heard conspiracy theories Yak got something on Piche and therefore has infinite job security.
> 
> But at this point it's clear the answer is much simpler; he's irreplaceable because only he can make sense of his indecipherable code.
> 
> Things won't improve and further degrade as long as that crook isn't chucked out on his ear.



Even if he were 'irreplaceable' because nobody understands his code, that doesn't mean he's not replaceable by someone who can create code based on the current interface.  I've created a site from scratch with more usability and function then the original, in far less time than it  would have taken to wade through the code and figure it out.  So no, he is replaceable, plain and simple.  And if he does get booted, the site won't suddenly stop working.


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## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> I've heard conspiracy theories Yak got something on Piche and therefore has infinite job security.
> 
> But at this point it's clear the answer is much simpler; he's irreplaceable because only he can make sense of his indecipherable code.
> 
> Things won't improve and further degrade as long as that crook isn't chucked out on his ear.



Anyone know why the furry community doesn't just go to a site like InkBunny? Their site actually gets updated.


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> I advocate for a complete rewrite from scratch because I know that FA started out as a project put together by someone who thought strings made good primary keys for a database. I saw bits and pieces of the code a long time ago, and today they would make my eyes bleed given what I know now compared to how little I knew then. It is my opinion that attempting to reverse engineer and understand what they did in the context of a system not intended to be worked on by many people is a far more frustrating, daunting, and complicated task than starting fresh. I'd rather start fresh from best practices than try to jam best practices into an antiquated system if I don't have to.



I didn't say reverse engineer it. What I said is compartmentalize the features and rewrite them, still from scratch, one at a time. Doing it all at once does not work, it's been tried countless times. It can work given the right resources, but those don't exist. Just because I'm advocating baby steps doesn't mean I'm saying "Leave it how it is"


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## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Anyone know why the furry community doesn't just go to a site like InkBunny? Their site actually gets updated.





It's already been mentioned several times.. There are so many people with so many submissions already on FA. People don't want to go to IB because it is smaller and doesn't have as many people or as much traffic... and of course they would have to reload everything they have again, and for some people, like me, that is now about 7 years worth of stuff.. A daunting task.


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## Gryphoneer (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Anyone know why the furry community doesn't just go to a site like InkBunny? Their site actually gets updated.


Because that would be SEDITION and provoke a riot.


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## Freehaven (Dec 13, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> Because that would be SEDITION and provoke a riot.



And heaven forbid we question Dear Leader, amirite?


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## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Cutting off all donations has not helped, what else can be done? Look at the logs and something happened around Dec 2011 and all donations stopped coming in.


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## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Anyone know why the furry community doesn't just go to a site like InkBunny? Their site actually gets updated.



Easy, Cub porn. InkBunny has painted itself into a corner by allowing cub on their site.

Whatever the problem FA has, me and a great many people, artists included, will never consider IB as long as cub is allowed there.


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Easy, Cub porn. InkBunny has painted itself into a corner by allowing cub on their site.
> 
> Whatever the problem FA has, me and a great many people, artists included, will never consider IB as long as cub is allowed there.



Cub is definitely gross, but IB does have keyword filtering.


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Cutting off all donations has not helped, what else can be done? Look at the logs and something happened around Dec 2011 and all donations stopped coming in.



As it stands FA lost both its PayPal and Pay Alert accounts due to the cub porn drama back in 2008. I don't think donations have been cut off but their really hard to do now as I think you have to actually mail the money to Dragoneer directly due the lack of a PayPal/Pay Alert account.


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## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Xantouke said:


> I'm sorry, but there has been a sprinkling of people in this thread that said something similar to this effect and frankly I'm getting annoyed. SO, no. Stop right there.
> 
> The problem is, this was *unplanned downtime*. There was *no announcement* about there going to be maintenance or something similar and that the site will be down for X amount of time. If it was planned, *no one would be complaining* (unless you're one of those who only get on FA for the porn or don't read the announcements or a combination thereof) because people would have had time to get things together. Such as commissioners, contests, bids, etc. and where to get in contact or if the bids/auctions are postponed while the site is down.
> 
> ...




Sorry, impending TL;DR

It's been like this for years, and I fear nothing is *EVER* going to change here. The countless promises, the numbered screenshots of the new layouts, the "Fender" updates. Yet, funny. Nothing seems to change around here. This place runs through hardware left/right and I don't need to inquire upon anyone's opinion for that. Everyone who has half an attention span knows that FA has been desperately in need of a rewrite since when? Since Alkora wrote the site.

These small graphical tweaks aren't going to alleviate the stress this burden of a site puts on the hardware which we're constantly replacing, might I add at one hell of an accelerated pace. The community here continues to grow but the site continues to exist in the past. Something's going to give. How much longer are we going to be told about this and about that.


Hold a final donation drive, and pay someone to write this site proper if the current staff refuses to do it. No one owes anything except for this domain, which the community has latched onto. The sad thing is no one is going to migrate. Artists do business here, business keeps the bills paid. In order to do business you need a clientele, but the client isn't going to migrate if the artists don't. You think the artists are going to? Absolutely not. It's a ridiculous and upsetting vicious cycle that will keep us spinning in web 1999 until someone finally decides to start writing this damn site on the side.


and to be honest, I want to get one thing clear. I HIGHLY doubt that the majority of uses will give a flying fuck if there's a lack of migration from old to new. At this point, most people just don't GIVE a shit. And to those of you who think that without migration, FA will crumble.. You're insane. This domain and it's seniority drives the traffic. 


And I reply to this person because everything they say is relevant. It's one thing to come up with a counter-argument when someone is complaining about a free website, but FA is MUCH more than a "Free website". It's an unfortunate crutch. And unfortunately this is where the userbase is. And as much as I hate to admit it, I can't stand Furaffinity. It's not the people, it's not the website, and it's certainly not the people who run it. It's the folks that aren't willing to just move on, dragging this dead horse EVERYWHERE we're going for the next however-the-fuck long it takes to get this thing to current standard. Will it ever happen? I guess we'll continue waiting, it's not like we haven't already waited 7-8 years. What's another year to hurt?


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## Pocketmew (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Easy, Cub porn. InkBunny has painted itself into a corner by allowing cub on their site.
> 
> Whatever the problem FA has, me and a great many people, artists included, will never consider IB as long as cub is allowed there.




^^^This, this is the exact reason I don't feel comfortable on Inkbunny. Even when I stated I don't draw that I had people asking for cub on that site...that and just browsing around I have to see innocent little things getting rammed every page. *shudders*


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> I can't stand Furaffinity.



Neither can I. This place is a joke. I disabled my userpage a month or two back because I was finally sick of it. Not sure where I'll go next, or even if I'll bother trying to set myself up on another site.


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## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Who wants to run a Kickstarter to get an FA clone made?


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## rjbartrop (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Anyone know why the furry community doesn't just go to a site like InkBunny? Their site actually gets updated.



Already have a Weasyl page:
https://www.weasyl.com/profile/rbartrop

Nothing says you can't patronize more that one,  but the reason people are on FA does pretty much begin and end with, "Because that's where everyone else is.".   Sure, if you're in the art business, you should factor in downtimes for FA, but at the same time, you can't ignore that large concentration of potential customers, any more than retail stores can afford to ignore the Christmas season.    Like Clyde Barrow said when asked why he robbed banks,  this is where the money is.


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## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Cub is definitely gross, but IB does have keyword filtering.



That's like saying a motel openly hosts prostitutes and drug dealers, but don't worry, they're all on the 3rd floor. Then wondering why a great many people avoid that motel.

The fact they have keyword filtering is irrelevant. I and a great many people are not going to associate ourselves in any way, shape, or form with a site that openly accepts cub and in fact has a reputation as THE PLACE to go for cub. If the IB community wants to stay a cub site then that is fine as long as they accept that a great many people are gonna avoid them because of that.

Perhaps they could create another site using the same code, InkFur or whatever, that doesn't allow cub. Then they would actually get consideration from a great many people. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.


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## jakeraccoon (Dec 13, 2013)

Pocketmew said:


> ^^^This, this is the exact reason I don't feel comfortable on Inkbunny. Even when I stated I don't draw that I had people asking for cub on that site...that and just browsing around I have to see innocent little things getting rammed every page. *shudders*



For the user, keyword filtering does the trick, but for the artist this must really suck. I always try to be careful to read the don't-draws and terms and conditions before I commission someone new, but some people... jeez.


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 13, 2013)

jakeraccoon said:


> Neither can I. This place is a joke. I disabled my userpage a month or two back because I was finally sick of it. Not sure where I'll go next, or even if I'll bother trying to set myself up on another site.



alright. so why the f*ck are you on the forums then?


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## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Pocketmew said:


> ^^^This, this is the exact reason I don't feel comfortable on Inkbunny. Even when I stated I don't draw that I had people asking for cub on that site...that and just browsing around I have to see innocent little things getting rammed every page. *shudders*



This is ridiculous. Little pokemon get slammed on FA.. And if you really don't like it, use this amazing feature called the "Tag System". It's really quite a compelling addition to such a fantastic art-site. Just hit the little "I don't wanna look at this crap" and POOF. No more "Innocent little things getting rammed every page." You poor thing you. 

We'd hate to ruin your delicate constitution. We know how morally correct furries are *smirks*


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## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Who wants to run a Kickstarter to get an FA clone made?



Setting up a site from scratch wouldn't be that hard. The problem is that people don't want to re-upload a decade worth of art.


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## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

I somehow imagine if it was a content issue PayPal was pissy about the adult content in general...


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## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Setting up a site from scratch wouldn't be that hard. The problem is that people don't want to re-upload a decade worth of art.



I highly doubt that seasoned veterans of FA really care about "uploading a decade worth of art" Anyways, if FA was modern, we could do batch-uploading with .7z's or .zips or rars or whatever.

And even if we didn't have batch processing, I personally wouldn't mind having to reupload one by one to have something I know isn't going to cost a burden to maintain. Something I can rest my reliability in.


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## CaptainCool (Dec 13, 2013)

Freehaven said:


> Your service (and FA is a service to the furry community) can and will become irrelevant if this crap keeps up, 'Neer.



See, that's one thing I actually agree about when it comes to complains about the site. Don't get me wrong, it still pisses me off when people complain about promised features and "incompetent staff" but you are right, FA is a service. And a service does become irrelevant if it doesn't go with the times.
Right now FA is offering a pretty basic level of service for artists and the community. You can upload your art, people can comment on it, you can send messages to other users. And that is perfectly fine! Keep it like that, give it a fresh splash of paint every now and then with a cosmetic UI update and maybe some minor new features and everyone is happy. Inkbunny is essentially a prettier FA with folders afterall and no one is complaining about features there.

But here is the important thing! For this to work you need a working foundation first. And right now you have a slow and old looking site with fragile code and users waiting for _months_ to get their trouble tickets answered. Fix those things first, make some minor UI changes and FA is gonna be relevant again.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 13, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> alright. so why the f*ck are you on the forums then?



Because much like you, he hates what's going on here. 
He likes the art he can view, but he hates the community for it's nature of being self-contradictory, ego-centric, and ignorant to extremes. 
This is his way of venting his frustration, just in a more limited capacity.


----------



## Jotaku (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> I highly doubt that seasoned veterans of FA really care about "uploading a decade worth of art" Anyways, if FA was modern, we could do batch-uploading with .7z's or .zips or rars or whatever.
> 
> And even if we didn't have batch processing, I personally wouldn't mind having to reupload one by one to have something I know isn't going to cost a burden to maintain. Something I can rest my reliability in.



I agree with this.  PLUS, I don't know about other artists... but I don't really wanna showcase art even 2 years old.  That is a long time with lots of improvement in between.  I'd prefer to have a fresh gallery contain my best (which usually coincides with the recent).
I think the hardest trouble is remembering to keep up with a new place /hard enough to balance even two art sites at a time


----------



## jakeraccoon (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> Because much like you, he hates what's going on here.
> He likes the art he can view, but he hates the community for it's nature of being self-contradictory, ego-centric, and ignorant to extremes.
> This is his way of venting his frustration, just in a more limited capacity.



Thank you.


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> I highly doubt that seasoned veterans of FA really care about "uploading a decade worth of art" Anyways, if FA was modern, we could do batch-uploading with .7z's or .zips or rars or whatever.
> 
> And even if we didn't have batch processing, I personally wouldn't mind having to reupload one by one to have something I know isn't going to cost a burden to maintain. Something I can rest my reliability in.



Actually, re-establishing yourself on another site is a big reason people hate to change from one site to another, or even from one username to another. It's a pain in the ass, and it takes a disruptive site to get people to actually want to leave, no alternative has proven to be anything but an FA clone, and an FA clone won't do it. If you really want people to migrate, you have to provide them with something much better than FA. 

And batch processing is kinda blegh. Usually something you want to avoid on an art community site.


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## zanian (Dec 13, 2013)

Nanuk said:


> Actually, re-establishing yourself on another site is a big reason people hate to change from one site to another, or even from one username to another. It's a pain in the ass, and it takes a disruptive site to get people to actually want to leave, no alternative has proven to be anything but an FA clone, and an FA clone won't do it. If you really want people to migrate, you have to provide them with something much better than FA.
> 
> And batch processing is kinda blegh. Usually something you want to avoid on an art community site.



thank you


----------



## dreamsfar (Dec 13, 2013)

rjbartrop said:


> Like Clyde Barrow said when asked why he robbed banks, this is where the money is.



Thank you, you made my day. That's an awesome quote. Kinda like "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana"... which was a Groucho Marx quote, I think.

Anyway, to stay on topic: I too would appreciate more frequent status updates on the main site and on the Site Status forums (http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/812997-Server-Issues-Migration-status). No offense to Raptros (And Raptros, please don't take this personally)... but he's A) been left to hang in the wind, looking like an idiot for only having two updates - one over 24 hours old, and B) someone should spell check/grammar check/sentence structure check any "official" posts like that before they go out to the public. If FA wants to present a professional appearance, they should make all official posts (Or posts by people working in an official capacity like this) are very professional and "squeaky clean". I hate to stereotype, but one's spelling and grammar and such will convey an impression of one's maturity and skills, and the professionalism of one's employer. 

That being said: I know my skills aren't what they used to be. Please feel free to pick my post apart for the run-on sentences, heh.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> Because much like you, he hates what's going on here.
> He likes the art he can view, but he hates the community for it's nature of being self-contradictory, ego-centric, and ignorant to extremes.
> This is his way of venting his frustration, just in a more limited capacity.



Speak for yourself, sport. The community may be a bit inaccurate when it comes to site outages, but ignorant to extremes seems to be a bit of an extreme view. And as far as venting his frustration, why should he care now that he's left the site? That's like me telling MySpace to get its act together, when I closed my account 4 years ago.


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## Pujot (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> As it stands FA lost both its PayPal and Pay Alert accounts due to the cub porn drama back in 2008.


November 2010 to be more precise.


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

Pujot said:


> November 2010 to be more precise.



Wow, I remember it being earlier than that. Wasn't there 10K lost because of that?


----------



## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> This is ridiculous. Little pokemon get slammed on  FA.. And if you really don't like it, use this amazing feature called  the "Tag System". It's really quite a compelling addition to such a  fantastic art-site. Just hit the little "I don't wanna look at this  crap" and POOF. No more "Innocent little things getting rammed every  page." You poor thing you.
> 
> We'd hate to ruin your delicate constitution. We know how morally correct furries are :smile:*smirks*



Little Pokemon are viewed by most non-furrys as feral and not  anthros, they'll see it as wierd, but no more than a lot of the other  stuff.

Most non-furrys will call cub what it is, child  pornography and like it or not, modern society takes an EXTREMELY dim  view on anything possibly resembling CP to the point it's a serious  legal issue. Talk all you want about how it's digital and not real, bla  bla bla. Non-furrys are not gonna care. In their view, you're a kidddie  diddler, end of story. People in living memory have straight up murdered  people accused of child molestation and afterwards never seen the  inside of a jail cell.

Even if I didn't have ethical issues with  cub, just the legal liability is enough to keep people away. The  difference between Feral and Cub is indeed subtle, but there is a VERY  substantial difference in how the public perceives the two and anyone who doesn't wear blinders can see that.


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Wow we're really going to have this discussion? 

Let's all be honest, FA was pretty big before it banned cub porn, so I don't think it's a matter of people being squicky about it. tl;dr this discussion is silly


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Easy, Cub porn. InkBunny has painted itself into a corner by allowing cub on their site.
> 
> Whatever the problem FA has, me and a great many people, artists included, will never consider IB as long as cub is allowed there.






Okay.. so the reason IB isn't more popular is cub porn?!!?


Ummm... 


Honestly I don't even know what to say about this.




There are many reasons IB isn't bigger than it is now, but to blame it solely or even mostly on cub porn is ridiculously hilarious.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 13, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> Speak for yourself, sport. The community may be a bit inaccurate when it comes to site outages, but ignorant to extremes seems to be a bit of an extreme view. And as far as venting his frustration, why should he care now that he's left the site? That's like me telling MySpace to get its act together, when I closed my account 4 years ago.



I'm speaking for the people of rational mindset, unlike others here.
Extreme view? It's no less a view, just a consolidated assessment of the individuals on this site, based upon their behavior through this thread.
You're certainly not helping matters any by becoming confrontational and judgmental. You're only proving my point further.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> I highly doubt that seasoned veterans of FA really care about "uploading a decade worth of art" Anyways, if FA was modern, we could do batch-uploading with .7z's or .zips or rars or whatever.




No you couldn't upload them in a batch, because you have to give each of them a title and description and tags and such. 

And you are talking about people who have 6, 7, 8, years or more worth of pictures and music, poetry and photography. There is *NO* way I am going to re-upload everything I have amassed at FA on another site. That would take an extremely long time to do.  People have HUNDREDS of submissions.. not to mention all of their MANY journals.. No one has talked about how those would be lost. 


You are WAY oversimplifying things.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> No you couldn't upload them in a batch, because you have to give each of them a title and description and tags and such.
> 
> And you are talking about people who have 6, 7, 8, years or more worth of pictures and music, poetry and photography. There is *NO* way I am going to re-upload everything I have amassed at FA on another site. That would take an extremely long time to do.  People have HUNDREDS of submissions.. not to mention all of their MANY journals.. No one has talked about how those would be lost.
> 
> ...



I might have to agree with you, but the sentiments of the action are still there.
The only thing that would truly stop a person from doing that are two things- Time, and laziness. 
Aside from that, I believe you and I can agree it is most certainly possible, yes?


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Most non-furrys will call cub what it is, child  pornography.





WOW... REALLY?



So if  cub porn is child pornography, then anthro art is bestiality.



See how stupid both of those statements sound?


----------



## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> There are many reasons IB isn't bigger than it is now, but to blame it solely or even mostly on cub porn is ridiculously hilarious.



I can only speak on what I know and I know that I, and a great many furrys I know, do not and will not go to IB because of cub. We can argue the causes of IB not being popular all day long, but you cannot deny that it is the actual dealbreaker for a great many people. Cub was tolerated in the past just like how drunk driving was tolerated in the past. Things change and what was OK then is no longer OK today.


----------



## InSaneJoker (Dec 13, 2013)

You know, I understand that Dragoneer is in charge and has direct access to all this, but he doesn't keep up with the updates unless you tweet him about it. Wouldn't it make sense to designate one person to be in charge of announcements and statuses, who isn't afraid of letting us know the bad news, than to have someone who is hesitant to even let us know anything?

Something simple like: "hey guys! Still waiting for the transfer, this is taking a lot longer than expected". Then later say "Right now we're determining how far along this transfer is. Please hang in there!" or even "We are unable to give a deadline for when FA will be back up. We will keep you updated later today".

Just hearing something, even if they're unsure themselves, would be grand.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> I might have to agree with you, but the sentiments of the action are still there.
> The only thing that would truly stop a person from doing that are two things- Time, and laziness.
> Aside from that, I believe you and I can agree it is most certainly possible, yes?






Laziness?

No.

It's the fact that it has taken me 8 years to get everything I have on their now. I have a job, family, and friend, and my time is precious to me, and there is no reason that I should be forced to move everything because of issues that are beyond my control. 

If you want to call it laziness that I think it is ridiculous that I should have to redo everything because of of one website's incompetence, then so be it. 


But that is insulting, to be honest.


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

Stop with the cub porn debate or I'll start infracting people. Get back on topic which is the status of FA.


----------



## AmaruKaze (Dec 13, 2013)

Due to Moderator's wish, content removed.


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## Jotaku (Dec 13, 2013)

If we're still talking about a new site, and the trouble with having to  upload/redo submissions on the user's end... Well, I don't know what to say about  journals.  But as far as mass-uploading older art to a new gallery (as a  way to have all accessible on the same site, as opposed to using  another off-site gallery such as photobucket or whatever other various  places) and titles and tag systems, etc., there could always be like a  public Stash feature (like on dA).  Something separate from the tag and  notification system, which you'd have to visit the user's page to get  into to?  Not mass-crowding inboxes or having to go and one-by-one  upload.  Still have all the old artworks, and build a new gallery from  there?

This is probably just a ridiculous, unreasonable idea, but... /shrug


----------



## RTDragon (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> I'm speaking for the people of rational mindset, unlike others here.
> Extreme view? It's no less a view, just a consolidated assessment of the individuals on this site, based upon their behavior through this thread.
> You're certainly not helping matters any by becoming confrontational and judgmental. You're only proving my point further.



From your posting history here you have not been here very long in the forums. Basically FAF is separate from the main forums so you really might want to get used to the hostility here since it's quite normal here.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> I'm speaking for the people of rational mindset, unlike others here.
> Extreme view? It's no less a view, just a consolidated assessment of the individuals on this site, based upon their behavior through this thread.
> You're certainly not helping matters any by becoming confrontational and judgmental. You're only proving my point further.



confrontational? I am being rational. You are giving a biased, unfair view based on how some of them may act when the site goes down. And like I said earlier, if you don't use the site, why should you be able to complain about it being down? If I left FA, I wouldn't give a damn.


----------



## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Laziness?
> 
> No.
> 
> It's the fact that it has taken me 8 years to get everything I have on their now. I have a job, family, and friend, and my time is precious to me, and there is no reason that I should be forced to move everything because of issues that are beyond my control.



Exactly my thoughts. You don't just want to dump pics on a site. There are the descriptions and backstories you want to tell about them. Just copying and pasting them from FA would take a monumental amount of time for a person.


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> From your posting history here you have not been here very long in the forums. Basically FAF is separate from the main forums so you really might want to get used to the hostility here since it's quite normal here.


As dragoneer said in another thread, we don't need hostility, we don't need yes-men. Hostility gets you nowhere.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Exactly my thoughts. You don't just want to dump pics on a site. There are the descriptions and backstories you want to tell about them. Just copying and pasting them from FA would take a monumental amount of time for a person.





Thank you.. I am glad someone seems to see reason here. 


I can't even imagine with all the pics that I have trying to move them to another site. All of them have a story, and then there is the tags as well, which of course will differ from site to site.


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## AmaruKaze (Dec 13, 2013)

Raptros said:


> As dragoneer said in another thread, we don't need hostility, we don't need yes-men. Hostility gets you nowhere.



Alright hostility is not necessary and won't help but neither do suggestions, information, advices, questions, complaints, rants, curiousity etc.

Mind telling us what does help make the main site staff listen to the user's offering their help?


----------



## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> Exactly my thoughts. You don't just want to dump pics on a site. There are the descriptions and backstories you want to tell about them. Just copying and pasting them from FA would take a monumental amount of time for a person.


Then don't do it and start on a different site with all new content if it's that much of a hassle.



AmaruKaze said:


> Alright hostility is not necessary and won't  help but neither do suggestions, information, advices, questions,  complaints, rants, curiousity etc.


When you have 100+ people trying to give their input on something, it gets a bit taxing.


----------



## RTDragon (Dec 13, 2013)

Raptros said:


> As dragoneer said in another thread, we don't need hostility, we don't need yes-men. Hostility gets you nowhere.



Even so it's pretty normal on the art shack though namely the art exchange. Though the palette town i dunno. 

Anyway back on topic. Considering i've been here on FA since 2005 things have really not improved as much despite promises of new site design folders and things. As well as some of the more questionable issues. 
Though i sadly really don't think the users or the staff are going to help each other anytime soon unlike DA which i've noticed over time people giving suggestions and been showing improvement there's still issues though.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 13, 2013)

PheagleAdler said:


> confrontational? I am being rational. You are giving a biased, unfair view based on how some of them may act when the site goes down. And like I said earlier, if you don't use the site, why should you be able to complain about it being down? If I left FA, I wouldn't give a damn.




Allow me to educate you in the matters of your own ignorance then.

conÂ·fronÂ·taÂ·tionÂ·al
kÃ¤nfrÉ™nËˆtÄSHÉ™nl

_adjective_
adjective: *confrontational*
*1*. 
*tending to deal with situations in an aggressive way; hostile or argumentative.
*
This sums what you are doing up entirely. You are being the exact definition of the term, in fact.
Biased and unfair view? I think not- My entire evidence is here in this very thread. Your views and actions only further corroborate the evidence found here as well, so I would ask you not to project yourself onto me. 

Secondly, the reason he is allowed to is because it is every human being's right to complain about issues. The problem lies in the fact of *how* one communicates those issues which results in either a resolution or further conflict arising from such things. The person in question is unable to explain himself, likely inarticulate enough to give credence to his thoughts and reasoning. This is a common thing amongst the fandom, as you have exhibited here yourself-  You've iterated the same question twice, as though by repeating yourself you would find that the result would be different. 
You have also established your own personal views, while disregarding the personal experiences and opinions of another. 
There is another term for that.


 
 *narÂ·row-mindÂ·ed* (n
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





r
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







-m
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




n
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




d
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




d)_adj._ Lacking tolerance, breadth of view, or sympathy; petty.


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Raptros said:


> As dragoneer said in another thread, we don't need hostility, we don't need yes-men. Hostility gets you nowhere.



Ok, rationally why has this site received little updating in years? Is it donations? Lack of man-power? Lack of interest? A combination of many things?


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Willow said:


> Then don't do it and start on a different site with all new content if it's that much of a hassle.





Well, that just TOTALLY kills any reason to have a presence on another art site. Don't show off your art?  Then why be there?   So all of a sudden the art I have collected over a decade or more, just throw it away?

Umm.. yeah.


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> Ok, rationally why has this site received little updating in years? Is it donations? Lack of man-power? Lack of interest? A combination of many things?


I'm really not the guy you should be asking that to (I'm a forum mod/messenger to the higher ups concerning technical site issues posted on the forums).


----------



## Jotaku (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Well, that just TOTALLY kills any reason to have a presence on another art site. Don't show off your art?  Then why be there?   So all of a sudden the art I have collected over a decade or more, just throw it away?
> 
> Umm.. yeah.



The problem here is, if FA can't manage to fix itself and pull its butt together--either it will break down or someday, somewhere, something better WILL come along, and everyone will leave.  Nothing lasts forever--especially if it's not well up-kept. 
Meaning this is a very real issue you may have to face some day, y'know?


----------



## DixieVonFur (Dec 13, 2013)

Man.. I've been lurking on this thread since page one..
Leave it to furries to completely twist the topic and make drama where there really isn't any.

Lookin' forward to the site going live again.  I have this note in my inbox that I can't respond to and it is killing me X'D

Was happy to receive the reassuring email from 'Neer about ad times being extended, other then that, as far as I'm concerned the down time is a nice break from tossing all my time into the site.  It's almost like.. I have a life!


----------



## Terror-Run (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> We are complaining because the updates are coming maybe once a day, and it has been in read only mode how many days now?  4? 5?
> 
> Updates are nice, but they hardly give any information, and it hardly seems to be moving along.



I agree with the updates being way to infrequent, but let's not exaggerate. if the clock system is right then judging by the submission times on the frozen images on the frontpage it's about 2h and 40 min until it's passed 3 days. (too much yes, but calling it 5 will just make more annoyance). Then again there could be an error with the am/pm, and so it would be 3d + 10h.  Anyways, nothing else to add really *shrugh* No IT skills here, but hoping for a new update soon


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Raptros said:


> I'm really not the guy you should be asking that to (I'm a forum mod/messenger to the higher ups concerning technical site issues posted on the forums).



Fair enough. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Anyway back on topic. Considering i've been here on FA since 2005 things have really not improved as much despite promises of new site design folders and things. As well as some of the more questionable issues.
> Though i sadly really don't think the users or the staff are going to help each other anytime soon unlike DA which i've noticed over time people giving suggestions and been showing improvement there's still issues though.


Yeah, the layout gets increasingly worse. Also a lot of the features they do implement on dA only cause more problems from what I hear. 



seaweed said:


> Well, that just TOTALLY kills any reason to have a  presence on another art site. Don't show off your art?  Then why be  there?   So all of a sudden the art I have collected over a decade or  more, just throw it away?
> 
> Umm.. yeah.


Did you even try read my post? No? Okay. 

It's no different from moving into a new house when you think about it. Either you deal with the task of moving your stuff or just don't move at all. 
Never said you shouldn't show off your art nor did I say to throw it away. 

But I guess you didn't catch that because you threw up your arms at "don't do it".


----------



## Jotaku (Dec 13, 2013)

Raptros said:


> I'm really not the guy you should be asking that to (I'm a forum mod/messenger to the higher ups concerning technical site issues posted on the forums).



You'll have to excuse me for asking--I don't intend to needle or push you for information you can't answer or may not be able to share, but...
Who DO we ask to get a straight answer to these things, y'know?  Do the higher ups even really take time to stop and consider all that's being said here?
The lack of information is an ever-occurring problem and, as far as I can tell, no matter where we try to turn no one gets the time of day unless they're causing a ruckus and being rude/breaking rules.  And even then it's just a 'Knock it off, please.'


----------



## PheagleAdler (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> Allow me to educate you in the matters of your own ignorance then.
> 
> conÂ·fronÂ·taÂ·tionÂ·al
> kÃ¤nfrÉ™nËˆtÄSHÉ™nl
> ...



okay, just shut your mouth then. Don't try to "educate" me about words that I am already familiar with. I am not being hostile nor am I being narrow-minded. On the other hand, you are. So just shove a sock in it, will you?

As for his complaints, he is allowed to make them, yes. But he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. There's virtually no reason at all to make a big stink about a site which you no longer use.

Of course I want the site back up as much as anyone else. But I'm not about to be a douche to other people or quit the site because I'm "fed up." Rational. The site goes down, it will be back up at some point in the future. I think I'll stick around.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Willow said:


> Did you even try read my post? No? Okay.
> It's no different from moving into a new house when you think about it. Either you deal with the task of moving your stuff or just don't move at all.
> Never said you shouldn't show off your art nor did I say to throw it away.
> But I guess you didn't catch that because you threw up your arms at "don't do it".





Of course, use the argument that "I didn't read it" when the answer doesn't go your way. 


So let me explain this again. 

This not like moving into a new house, this is more like being evicted because of the stupidity of the landlord.  I want to stay where I am but because of reasons outside my control, I cannot. 
And because of that I have just a few days, or hours to move everything that I have. 

Of course I am not going to want to do that, because I have a lot to move and not a lot of time to do it in. 


Now, does that make more sense?


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Off subject, but I'd like to thank the moderators here in this forum for adhering to and maintaining a position of neutrality during these dark times.


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

Okay guys, lets tone it down with the aggression please.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Jotaku said:


> The problem here is, if FA can't manage to fix itself and pull its butt together--either it will break down or someday, somewhere, something better WILL come along, and everyone will leave.  Nothing lasts forever--especially if it's not well up-kept.
> Meaning this is a very real issue you may have to face some day, y'know?





That is a distinct possibility, but considering that it has been floundering along for close to a decade now, I don't think that the site will explode particularly soon, but who knows. *shrug*


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

If people can write XSS for their sites to migrate FA content to another server, than I don't see why this couldn't be made into a possibility. There would be no need to merge existing content manually, no need to continue to patch what we have here. Bring a new website live and begin a scripted migration tool to move the content. Keep it local (In the same colo) and results wouldn't take too long.

Tooting off like a broken record isn't what I want to do, but I feel that the resources we're using to maintain said existing site could be used to build something anew... something of which shouldn't be far out. Now I know Eevee "LexyEevee" was writing Ferrox 2.0/3.0/whateverthehell.0. Can't we pick up from there and move forward.

A little bit of organization never hurt anyone


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Seems people have a lot of misconceptions about data loading from one site to another.

It takes some software engineering knowledge, but YES it is possible (and even not too difficult) to port data from a legacy (old) format to another.  I have done it plenty of times.  It's not something that just any tech weenie can do, but it's not out of reach.

You would need read access to the original database.  Even if you don't have access to it, it's still possible to do, just more difficult.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

We have "Read Access" right now to the OG database. Things that are *WORTH* doing are never easily attained.

Also one site to the other site in the same server rack wouldn't take long. At 1GBPS via local network, the only bottleneck would be the drives. All we have is time.


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> A little bit of organization never hurt anyone



This site is in drastic need of some form of organized control, there is also the problem of it burning through volunteer coders at an alarming rate from what I hear.


----------



## Pujot (Dec 13, 2013)

DixieVonFur said:


> Leave it to furries to completely twist the topic and make drama where there really isn't any. [...] the down time is a nice break from tossing all my time into the site.  It's almost like.. *I have a life!*



If there's a more clever post than this one, show it to me.


----------



## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Of course, use the argument that "I didn't read it" when the answer doesn't go your way.


No I'm saying that because it's obvious you didn't read it in context. Not because the answer didn't go my way. I wasn't even talking about you specifically to begin with. 



> So let me explain this again.
> 
> This not like moving into a new house, this is more like being evicted because of the stupidity of the landlord.  I want to stay where I am but because of reasons outside my control, I cannot.
> And because of that I have just a few days, or hours to move everything that I have.
> ...


Also unlike moving into a new house you're not pressed for time and therefore could do it when you _have_ time. 

There's sacrifice to be had and yes the situation is something you can't control. I'm sure a lot of people would like to not have to reestablish themselves elsewhere but, shit happens.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Pujot said:


> If there's a more clever post than this one, show it to me.



Wow, someone's priorities don't line up with mine. Let's thrash a thread because my views aren't being considered... 

I'd have to say that this post was off-topic and quite unoriginal at best.


----------



## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> Seems people have a lot of misconceptions about data loading from one site to another.
> 
> It takes some software engineering knowledge, but YES it is possible (and even not too difficult) to port data from a legacy (old) format to another.  I have done it plenty of times.  It's not something that just any tech weenie can do, but it's not out of reach.
> 
> You would need read access to the original database.  Even if you don't have access to it, it's still possible to do, just more difficult.



That was my thought, but I'm not a programer. If you're trying to scrape it from the webpage I can see it being difficult, but if you have the old databases itself it's just a matter of translating fields from one database to another and then testing the hell out of it to make sure there aren't any corner case quirks you didn't know about.


----------



## BlazeIgnitus (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> Allow me to educate you in the matters of your own ignorance then.
> 
> conÂ·fronÂ·taÂ·tionÂ·al
> kÃ¤nfrÉ™nËˆtÄSHÉ™nl
> ...



Using dictionary definitions does not put you on the high ground. Rather, it lowers you because you are essentially being condescending. Don't beat someone over the head with dictionary definitions; this is coming from an English teacher.


----------



## cc_ (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> ...for adhering to and maintaining a position of neutrality during these dark times.



Dark times! Haha oh my god.


----------



## Pujot (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> Wow, someone's priorities don't line up with mine. Let's thrash a thread because my views aren't being considered...
> 
> I'd have to say that this post was off-topic and quite unoriginal at best.



Excuse me then.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

cc_ said:


> Dark times! Haha oh my god.



Did you like that ^_~. First world problems baby!


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> We have "Read Access" right now to the OG database.



Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here?  Got a connection string?


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Willow said:


> No I'm saying that because it's obvious you didn't read it in context. Not because the answer didn't go my way. I wasn't even talking about you specifically to begin with.
> Also unlike moving into a new house you're not pressed for time and therefore could do it when you _have_ time.
> There's sacrifice to be had and yes the situation is something you can't control. I'm sure a lot of people would like to not have to reestablish themselves elsewhere but, shit happens.




And once again, you are missing the point. There are people with HUNDREDS of submissions, plus dozens if not hundreds of journals- the journals CANNOT BE REDONE. They are time specific, and therefore starting on a new site would lose ALL OF THAT INFORMATION. 

And as I said before, people with hundreds of submissions do not have the time to re-upload, re-title, re-describe, and re-tag  EVERY SINGLE SUBMISSION.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here?  Got a connection string?



"Fur Affinity is in read-only mode"

FA is up,   =reads =/writes


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here?  Got a connection string?



As interesting this is, it is all Greek to me unfortunately. But I do agree it would be outside of the lay person like me to try and scrape the site if that is the discussion.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> And once again, you are missing the point. There are people with HUNDREDS of submissions, plus dozens if not hundreds of journals- the journals CANNOT BE REDONE. They are time specific, and therefore starting on a new site would lose ALL OF THAT INFORMATION.
> 
> And as I said before, people with hundreds of submissions do not have the time to re-upload, re-title, re-describe, and re-tag  EVERY SINGLE SUBMISSION.



Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. weigh the pros vs the cons. And like I've mentioned before, it wouldn't be hard to write up a migration script as a middleman, instead of trying to integrate old into new.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> "Fur Affinity is in read-only mode"
> 
> FA is up,   =reads =/writes



Thats what I thought you were thinking, but I didn't want to come out and say it incase I was wrong lest I sound condescending.


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Northern-Crosshair said:


> That was my thought, but I'm not a programer. If you're trying to scrape it from the webpage I can see it being difficult, but if you have the old databases itself it's just a matter of translating fields from one database to another and then testing the hell out of it to make sure there aren't any corner case quirks you didn't know about.



Good luck ever getting read access to FA's database... haha.


----------



## AmaruKaze (Dec 13, 2013)

Could we please take a chill pill here. We have like three different user to user quarrels in this thread. Random off-topic posts and it is getting quite hot in here.

Really, besides getting the unrelated forums moderators mad there is no point. Agree to disagree and focus on the topic. Seriously.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Nanuk said:


> Good luck ever getting read access to FA's database... haha.



We have read access to FA right now -_-; We don't need to use existing server tables to perform a data migration. This is a bit off-topic at this point though, so discussing it is moot and not exactly in-line with this threads topic.


----------



## Nanuk (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. weigh the pros vs the cons. And like I've mentioned before, it wouldn't be hard to write up a migration script as a middleman, instead of trying to integrate old into new.



You can only bulk-transfer so much before it gets weird. What would you transfer? Watches, watchers? You'd need all those users to be there already for it to work 100%, and you can't "make" accounts for them. Just submissions? Journals? Are journals still relevant?


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

Nanuk said:


> Good luck ever getting read access to FA's database... haha.



Yea, not a DBA but it seems like giving random strangers direct access to the database is a terrible idea.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> We have read access to FA right now -_-; We don't need to use existing server tables to perform a data migration. This is a bit off-topic at this point though, so discussing it is moot and not exactly in-line with this threads topic.



Did you not notice that I already called you out for not having a clue what we are talking about here?


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

AmaruKaze said:


> Could we please take a chill pill here. We have like three different user to user quarrels in this thread. Random off-topic posts and it is getting quite hot in here.
> 
> Really, besides getting the unrelated forums moderators mad there is no point. Agree to disagree and focus on the topic. Seriously.


I appreciate the concern, but backseat modding is against the rules.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. weigh the pros vs the cons. And like I've mentioned before, it wouldn't be hard to write up a migration script as a middleman, instead of trying to integrate old into new.






Again, though, I don't see how it could be done, because as I said it isn't an apples to apples migration, the submission details are going to differ from site to site, and you will need to put in at least a title, description, and tags, and tags may not even be the same from site to site.  The new site may have information that it needs that the olde site didn't have, like a species or such. 
And also, there is the mention of the journals. If I have 6 or 7 year old journal entries, that wouldn't work on a site I had been in for only 12 weeks. 


Just some thoughts.


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

AmaruKaze said:


> Agree to disagree and focus on the topic. Seriously.



Imo I applaud the mods for being neutral and not locking down the thread. Now it is just airing out grievances regarding lack of information as to the status of the servers. (and various other things)


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Again, though, I don't see how it could be done, because as I said it isn't an apples to apple migration, the submission details are going to differ from site to site, and you will need to put in at least a title, description, and tags, and tags may not even be the same from site to site.  The new site may have information that it needs that the olde site didn't have, like a species or such.
> And also, there is the mention of the journals. If I have 6 or 7 year old journal entries, that wouldn't work on a site I had been in for only 12 weeks.
> 
> 
> Just some thoughts.



Well considering that the site would be written within the umbrella of FA, I'd hope that all these little details would be accounted for. That'd be like Nintendo forgetting to put the cartridge slot into the newer hardware to read the games.


----------



## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> And once again, you are missing the point. There are people with HUNDREDS of submissions, plus dozens if not hundreds of journals- the journals CANNOT BE REDONE. They are time specific, and therefore starting on a new site would lose ALL OF THAT INFORMATION.
> 
> And as I said before, people with hundreds of submissions do not have the time to re-upload, re-title, re-describe, and re-tag  EVERY SINGLE SUBMISSION.


You act like I don't know that. But like Melkiah's already said, you take the good with the bad. It kind of seems like you're making this out to be a way bigger issue than it is or needs to be though. It's not fun or fair but it doesn't stop other people from moving. I mean hell, there are people who just up and leave without a word and think nothing else of nuking their entire accounts. 

There's also no need for the caps lock.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> And also, there is the mention of the journals. If I have 6 or 7 year old journal entries, that wouldn't work on a site I had been in for only 12 weeks.



Are you suggesting that something as simple manually assigning a date to a date field in the destination table is beyond the ability of a typical data migration engineer?


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> Well considering that the site would be written within the umbrella of FA, I'd hope that all these little details would be accounted for. That'd be like Nintendo forgetting to put the cartridge slot into the newer hardware to read the games.






If it is a new version of FA, yes of course. But if FA implodes or just gets unbearable and the users have to go elsewhere like IB, DA, SF, etc, then that will not be the case. So it depends on where the person is going of course.


----------



## AmaruKaze (Dec 13, 2013)

Raptros said:


> I appreciate the concern, but backseat modding is against the rules.



Wow, sorry for trying to help. I see staff in forum doesn't appreciate things as well.


----------



## Rukia509 (Dec 13, 2013)

seems a lot of you can't hold you heads on waiting for this update to get done. shows you are bad when it comes to things like this : U.


At least they gave you guys a dang update, they could have not given one at all :l .


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Willow said:


> You act like I don't know that. But like Melkiah's already said, you take the good with the bad. It kind of seems like you're making this out to be a way bigger issue than it is or needs to be though. It's not fun or fair but it doesn't stop other people from moving. I mean hell, there are people who just up and leave without a word and think nothing else of nuking their entire accounts.
> 
> There's also no need for the caps lock.






Yep, losing  8 years of art and journals is not a big issue at all. Silly me.


----------



## Shadowmoo (Dec 13, 2013)

AmaruKaze said:


> Wow, sorry for trying to help. I see staff in forum doesn't appreciate things as well.



My guess is he is trying to remain impartial and stick directly to the rules. Good on him.


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Rukia509 said:


> seems a lot of you can't hold you head son waiting for this update to get done. show show you are bad when it comes to things like this : U.
> 
> 
> At least they gave you guys a dang update, they could have not given one at all :l .



If you were paying attention to the discussion you'd know that this isn't what the debate is about.


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> Are you suggesting that something as simple manually assigning a date to a date field in the destination table is beyond the ability of a typical data migration engineer?




As I said before, it isn't an apple to apples migration. The setup of the journal on one page will not be the same as the one on another, like IB, SF, etc.   Also, as I said, if I have been the member of a site for 2 weeks, it would seem more than a little odd to have 8 year old  journals, don't you think?


----------



## Rukia509 (Dec 13, 2013)

not what a lot of these comments are saying. If it was not, then why are you posting here replying to each other, complaining about the mods and off topic stuff, that really won't make any thing better?


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> If it is a new version of FA, yes of course. But if FA implodes or just gets unbearable and the users have to go elsewhere like IB, DA, SF, etc, then that will not be the case. So it depends on where the person is going of course.



Well I'm speaking about the future of FA, and what *WE* can do as a community to make these issues less frequent. If FA implodes (Which it won't, trust me) There are already migration tools available, and tbh it wouldn't really matter at that point. All we can control is FA and the future of FA. Thinking of other scenarios is moot because there's nothing that can be done about them..

But check this.. What if we were to write a new site ( It can be done, very possible ) Great. And what if we were able to migrate the existing data into said new site ( Also can very much be done ), just think of the benefits it would bring!

A superior user experience with new web standards, new tools that are available at other sites, and let's not forget reliability, because I think reliability is absolute #1.

So we build and migrate into a new site. BAM. Right there.. More efficient code, faster loading speeds, less stress on the discs. I don't think there's anyone here who would complain about doing this. This is something that has been in "The works" for years and years.

Sure, we can focus on what's going to get FA moving right this instant, in which it's apparently 3 discs. But why not in the future come up with a plan that utilizes resources better and creates a better experience for the community.

FA isn't going anywhere, it's established itself as one of the main hubs in furrydom for all artistic aspects. And art is a huge deal in this fandom.

I think what I'm trying to say here, and I know it's been parroted at least 1000 times. Let's fix our current problem now, and come up with a solution that will be a long lasting one.  We can all sit here and debate and talk trash and put eachother down all day, but I don't think a single person in here wouldn't mind this site running 100x better on even the current hardware we have.


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowmoo said:


> My guess is he is trying to remain impartial and stick directly to the rules. Good on him.


Pretty much.

ANYWAY, UPDATE HERE http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa...ation-status?p=4195703&viewfull=1#post4195703


----------



## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> As I said before, it isn't an apple to apples migration. The setup of the journal on one page will not be the same as the one on another, like IB, SF, etc.   Also, as I said, if I have been the member of a site for 2 weeks, it would seem more than a little odd to have 8 year old  journals, don't you think?



Are you suggesting any better solution in particular or are you just venting that your timestamps might not make sense to you, causing spontaneous cranial combustion?

If you're building a new page, you can set up the journal any way you want to.  This argument is moot.


----------



## Rukia509 (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> Well I'm speaking about the future of FA, and what *WE* can do as a community to make these issues less frequent. If FA implodes (Which it won't, trust me)



but what if it does? Is the question o3o


----------



## Lotix (Dec 13, 2013)

If you had been following this thread from start to end you would see majority of the conversation has been about helping FA get more up to date on it's code. This bickering didn't start till a couple pages ago over people just fighting among themselves for varies reasons, none of them really about not getting updates.

There have been a few people complaining about updates but they don't stay long and continue conversations, they just pop in randomly.


----------



## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

I remember a time many many years ago when this site was down for a very long period of time.. Months it was.. The userbase stayed and didn't go anywhere else. People who migrate to other sites are few and far between. The userbase is here. The fan-bases are here. It would take one hell of an extended down-period to remove FA from this group.


----------



## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

Please see my update at the bottom of the last page, they always seem to be the last post of the page and therefore get buried. XD


----------



## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 13, 2013)

In a crosspost from another thread......Raptr said...



> We're currently working on importing the last of the data. Journals and  submission notices are taking a bit longer than anticipated. Once done,  we will need to do a check on the integrity to make sure that everything  is copied, and prep to take the site offline to do hardware upgrades  (hard drive replacement). Current estimates are to attempt to repair  hardware in the morning and do prep to bring the site online.
> 
> If the DB transfer is done by midnight EST, we will attempt a late night repair. This is weather permitting however.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Of course, use the argument that "I didn't read it" when the answer doesn't go your way.
> 
> 
> So let me explain this again.
> ...




Then it is clear to me you need to take steps now to save the files and images.

-Create a folder for your art in your computer. 
-Allocate the names based upon date and artist made/title
-When confronted with eviction, all art is saved and ready to be transferred.
-Go to new site, begin uploads.

While  I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to, you cannot deny  the fact that this situation is a very real threat. The difference  between success and failure is the inability to adapt to new situations.  I have encountered this issue as well, and regardless of desiring to do  it, the problem requires your time and effort, in which you are saying  you are "Too busy" to handle.

Like I said, I can sympathize with  your situation, but there is a difference between unwillingness to take  action to a theoretical situation that is unlikely to happen, and  unwillingness to act upon a very real threat. 
Time and time again,  sites have come up, and gone down. FA will be no exception to this-  Eventually it will go down permanently too. The only question is when.


----------



## Lotix (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> As I said before, it isn't an apple to apples migration. The setup of the journal on one page will not be the same as the one on another, like IB, SF, etc.   Also, as I said, if I have been the member of a site for 2 weeks, it would seem more than a little odd to have 8 year old  journals, don't you think?


If this is such a problem seaweed, why do you even have the journals if you don't mind me asking? If they're so important, why not save them in google doc or something? Why keep them around if they're not important enough to transfer over to a new site?

To me it's just clutter, so im just being curious as to where you're coming from.


----------



## Armaetus (Dec 13, 2013)

Kesteh said:


> Well darn maybe they should have listened to those more than willing (and knowledgeable) coders out there willing to do it for free.
> But no. Same old song and dance with empty promises.



The problem is Yak is too stubborn (IIRC) to share the code and Dragoneer may be uncomfortable allowing new people access to it other than the FA-friends clique of his.

Being here for almost 8 years now, I'm a bit tired of the site looking the same since acquired from Alkora. I want to see some progress, not minor additions or replacement/new hardware that does nothing for the front end.


----------



## kayfox (Dec 13, 2013)

DarkOverord said:


> Busy servers do. It's kinda just basic logic, the more you use something, the more it degrades over time. I can't speak for how unusual FA's history with hardware is though.



Some do, some dont, it generally hinges on how well made the server is.  I have had servers which eat hard drives and ones that are still going on their harddrive from 2003.  This si somewhat where you see the big gap between servers put together by some guy from parts they got on NewEgg and servers made by companies like HP.  Because some of the server cases out there are kinda shitty, but you cant RMA a shitty case, it does not push an improvement cycle.  But if your HP has a shitty case and its causing harddrives to die, you end up eating a whole lot of RMA which makes HP unhappy.  Therefore HP designes failure out of their machines.

As an aside, you may be wondering how a bad case would cause hard drive failures: vibration.  I have found that some cases are good about being rigid or otherwise not transmitting vibration to the hard drives and I have also found particular cases to be prone to this behavior and cause hard drives to die regularly.  There are some trends I have noticed, cases that come on their own and have at least 12 hard disks tend to have larger number of hard disk deaths than the equivalent NetApp or HP MSA shelf.  Bad fans also should be dealt with ASAP.



Nanuk said:


> 8. Agree that a rewrite is necessary, though I still disagree with the notion of "Rewrite all the things, replace old site all at once". That's unlikely to happen with a group of volunteer coders and it's hard to keep a group going forever.
> 8a. Never design by committee. Design, iterate on community feedback, but ultimately a decision has to be made that's best for usability and that might not be immediately what people jump to.
> 8b(all). Agree that dev teams would be ideal, but again unlikely with a volunteer force and baby steps would probably be best for now.



Well, its an ideal approach and it would work out well if you have good people running the show.  The problem with rewriting it piece by piece is that you cant do anything big like swap out languages or swap in a framework without venturing into dark territory.



Nanuk said:


> Sorry, to clarify I didn't mean that a complete rewrite shouldn't happen at some point. But the goal should be to rewrite parts of the site at a time. Since it's a live product, and purely volunteer staffed, a complete rewrite with an on/off switch would mean developers working behind the curtains, so to speak, for a really long time. By re-writing one feature at a time, you gradually cycle the entire site with a new version. It provides a softer transition for users and staff, by allowing the changes to sink in over time vs. all at once, while continually updating the site and letting people know it IS being worked on.



Yeah, but as above it does not afford ample opportunities to replaces bad architecture wholesale.  This might have been a good approach to rewriting the site over the last 6 years, but its pretty obvious that rapid replacement is needed.



Nanuk said:


> 9. Agree that money is necessary, but I don't think a somethingawful approach would be best. A premium membership option could work, with more of a focus on the supporter aspect, and come with some additional bells and whistles that normal accounts don't have. But this shouldn't inherently limit non-premium users from having a "full" experience.
> 9c. FA's parent company is already registered as an LLC which implies there's some board at the helm, whom it consists of I'm not sure. I'm not a tax expert, but any not-for-profit group is ridiculously difficult to organize and maintain. 501(c)(7) is very specific on income sources, however. Income is limited to only members, which means any sort of sponsorship or advertising would probably be a no-no. And, again, nonprofits = super difficult. (Though I could see FA being classified as a church...)



The tenbux thing might not be agood but its an idea.  I prefer it because it makes people consider the consequences of being banned more carefully.

As for the 501(c)7 issue you bring up, the IRS says that a (c)7 can get up to 35 percent of its income from non-member sources.  And advertizing might be considered member income if you only let members advertize.  YMMV, IANAL.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Other-Non-Profits/Social-Clubs



Nanuk said:


> 10. It's one thing when discussing it like its fact, everything here has pretty much been clearly marked as conjecture. There's nothing wrong with a lively engineering discussion.



I was just pointing out the obvious, some people seem to take some of this stuff more seriously than they should.



Nanuk said:


> 11. Telling people to either suck it up or get out is a silly way to approach things.



Thats not what I said, I said people should use more than one site as a way to be diverse (and thusly diversify the risk), not to put up or shut up.  What do you think Im not doing here?  



Nanuk said:


> 11a. If this happens, i demand pics.



I have a flickr and they will be there, perhaps.



Nanuk said:


> 13. One problem FA has is the niche of allowing mature content, it makes donations a bitch. It makes payment processing a bitch, too (relevant to 9, really).



Only if you let it.



Nanuk said:


> 15. Confused about this one coming up... haha.



It came up in one of the other threads and seems to be the buzzword of the week.



Amaroq said:


> Anyway, I seem to remember a while back they were doing some Project Phoenix or something where they were gonna recode FA from the ground up. Did they ever do that? If we're using that recode, I seem to remember they decided to code it in *Python*, which in my opinion seems like a really stupid decision. Pick a language that's designed to be a server-side scripting language. It'll probably be optimized better than someone's attempt to replicate server-side scripting in Python.



Ferrox, it was written in Python on Pylons.  It was actually doing well for a while.

As for Python not being designed ot be a server side scripting language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)#Use



> Python is used as a scripting language for web applications, e.g., via mod_wsgi for the Apache web server.[85] With Web Server Gateway Interface, a standard API has been developed to facilitate these applications. Web application frameworks like Django, Pylons, Pyramid, TurboGears, web2py, Tornado, Flask and Zope support developers in the design and maintenance of complex applications. Pyjamas and IronPython can be used to develop the client-side of Ajax-based applications. SQLAlchemy can be used as data mapper to a relational database. Twisted is a framework to program communications between computers, and is used for example by Dropbox.



Im sorry Python is not a web scripting *only* language, but sometimes you need something a little more functional than PHP.



Amaroq said:


> I could be completely wrong though and this site is not written in Python. Just going on something I vaguely remember a long time ago.



The site is written in PHP with no frameworks.


----------



## Rukia509 (Dec 13, 2013)

What? don't care.


----------



## Rukia509 (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> I remember a time many many years ago when this site was down for a very long period of time.. Months it was.. The userbase stayed and didn't go anywhere else. People who migrate to other sites are few and far between. The userbase is here. The fan-bases are here. It would take one hell of an extended down-period to remove FA from this group.




Wow it was down for months? ... hmm this must've happened when I was not here for it. 

Did they say why it went down for so long?


----------



## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

nuzzcat said:


> Are you suggesting any better solution in particular or are you just venting that your timestamps might not make sense to you, causing spontaneous cranial combustion?
> 
> If you're building a new page, you can set up the journal any way you want to.  This argument is moot.





No, the argument is not moot. I am not an expert in code but I somehow doubt that a site is going to have the ability to backdate an item to a time before that site was even online. 


If there is someone who is an expert in code that can show that is wrong, then so be it. But I doubt it is as simple as that.


----------



## DrkKaiser (Dec 13, 2013)

BlazeIgnitus said:
			
		

> "Using dictionary definitions does not put you on the high ground.  Rather, it lowers you because you are essentially being condescending.  Don't beat someone over the head with dictionary definitions; this is  coming from an English teacher."



English means nothing when it comes to manners, respect, and general etiquette when dealing with others.
That's not your forte, and I regret that someone like you hasn't the foresight to be capable of seeing the difference between the two.

English is a language amongst many used to facilitate emotions, meaning, and intent with words established for such situations, moods, or scenarios. 
However, it can only put labels upon things. 

Manners, Etiquette, and respect are things beyond your forte, and thus have little bearing on what you've just stated.
Take this from someone who knows the difference.


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## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> Then it is clear to me you need to take steps now to save the files and images.
> 
> -Create a folder for your art in your computer.
> -Allocate the names based upon date and artist made/title
> ...





Of course, I already have all of the art from FA in a folder on my computer, that is obviously where it was uploaded from. So a backup of the information is not the issue. 

When it comes to the journals, I totally disagree, because they remind me of specific points in my life, where something happened, like a friend died, or a convention I went to, and of course people have responded to those posts. 
If I used something like Google Docs I could get the journals, but not all of the posts.  There are sites that give you screenshots, but that can be problematic as well, especially if the chat goes onto multiple pages. 

FA has been through A LOT of ups and downs in 8 years or more and it is still here. I have a feeling it will have to weather a lot more before something really drastic happens, but that is just an unprofessional opinion.


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## BlazeIgnitus (Dec 13, 2013)

Enough with the condescension already. We get it, you're very well-educated. That doesn't mean you should use said education to bear down on people. That shows that you, in fact, do not know what manners are despite your statement that you do.


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## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Lotix said:


> If this is such a problem seaweed, why do you even have the journals if you don't mind me asking? If they're so important, why not save them in google doc or something? Why keep them around if they're not important enough to transfer over to a new site?
> 
> To me it's just clutter, so im just being curious as to where you're coming from.





I will respond with the part of a post I made to another user here. 

With the journals, they remind me of specific points in my life, where something happened, like a friend died, or a convention I went to, and of course people have responded to those posts.
If I used something like Google Docs I could get the journals, but not all of the posts. There are sites that give you screenshots, but that can be problematic as well, especially if the chat goes onto multiple pages.


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## AustinWolfclaw (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> I remember a time many many years ago when this site was down for a very long period of time.. Months it was.. The userbase stayed and didn't go anywhere else. People who migrate to other sites are few and far between. The userbase is here. The fan-bases are here. It would take one hell of an extended down-period to remove FA from this group.



I think i remember that time! Didnt the FA main site have a chiptune play while it told us it will be back? i think it was called Loader from some c64 game or project, i completely forgot what it was....


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## nuzzcat (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> No, the argument is not moot. I am not an expert in code but I somehow doubt that a site is going to have the ability to backdate an item to a time before that site was even online.
> 
> 
> If there is someone who is an expert in code that can show that is wrong, then so be it. But I doubt it is as simple as that.



You don't even understand that databases don't really care what dates their site first started accepting visitors.  I can't tell if you are trolling or not, but if you are admittedly not a tech guy, please don't try to argue tech stuff with tech guys.  I don't know how to put it any nicer than that.  It's just not productive for what we are trying to get done here.

Signed, "code expert"

P.S. - The minimum date allowed in SQL Server is [FONT=Arial, Liberation Sans, DejaVu Sans, sans-serif]January 1, 1753.  I think you'll be fine.[/FONT]


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## Lotix (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> I will respond with the part of a post I made to another user here.
> 
> With the journals, they remind me of specific points in my life, where something happened, like a friend died, or a convention I went to, and of course people have responded to those posts.
> If I used something like Google Docs I could get the journals, but not all of the posts. There are sites that give you screenshots, but that can be problematic as well, especially if the chat goes onto multiple pages.



Then just to be safe, I would still have those backed up with screenshots anyway, even if it is a hassle. If you get .sai or PH and just save it as a psd or a sai file with the layers still there, all you'll have to do it open it all as one image in sai to look at it and cherish those memories as one image file. FA won't be around forever and considering how important and sentimental those journals are, I'd definitely be saving them because it sounds like they mean a lot to you anyway.


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## Subdivisions (Dec 13, 2013)

It's been over a week now, and at first I was worried that I wouldn't be able to make any money for christmas, but now I'm starting to worry that FA will be down so long that I won't be able to make enough for rent. The new update doesn't bring much hope, just another indicator that it will be down for at least another whole day...
This post is pointless, there is nothing that can be done, but it's so very disheartening when it was supposed to be a nice holiday season...


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## Melkiah (Dec 13, 2013)

Subdivisions said:


> It's been over a week now, and at first I was worried that I wouldn't be able to make any money for christmas, but now I'm starting to worry that FA will be down so long that I won't be able to make enough for rent. The new update doesn't bring much hope, just another indicator that it will be down for at least another whole day...
> This post is pointless, there is nothing that can be done, but it's so very disheartening when it was supposed to be a nice holiday season...



I hear ya. Some people have different priorities aligned up and don't really care to know except what they deem worthy. I have a couple YCH things going on and I can't invite my fan-base to watch me do their work. They love to watch me work, so I refuse to work until I can post that stream notice. All auctions are put on hold.. Really wanted to get my baby sister a 2DS for christmas and make a little extra on the side, as well as provide some Christmas themed art to my fans.

Hang in there 


Also really? Don't let your holiday season be spoiled because a website is down? XD


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## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Lotix said:


> Then just to be safe, I would still have those backed up with screenshots anyway, even if it is a hassle. If you get .sai or PH and just save it as a psd or a sai file with the layers still there, all you'll have to do it open it all as one image in sai to look at it and cherish those memories as one image file. FA won't be around forever and considering how important and sentimental those journals are, I'd definitely be saving them because it sounds like they mean a lot to you anyway.




Admittedly, of course, there are some that are just quick little updates that mean nothing, but there are some that do indeed mean something to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the program SAI.  I have heard good things about it, but if I remember correctly, isn't it about 50-60 dollars for it?


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## AliothFox (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah, I said this on the other thread, but I'm gonna say it here, too.  Dragoneer said http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/826810-Site-Status-12-12-2013?p=4195749&posted=1#post4195749



Dragoneer said:


> ... should have that nearly completed mid-day tomorrow. ...



It is now "evening tomorrow" - midday passed and no update. Look, I'm not whining and complaining about the site being down. I know EVERYONE's frustrated about that, and there's no need to add to the people who've already talked about it. There've been good suggestions made (many of which will, unfortunately, go ignored, and we'll have to do this again six days/weeks/months from now), and it's up to the owners/staff to decide how much they want to actually listen to the people on their site.

I know they're working as fast as they can to get the site up. But here's the thing, guys: the lack of updates is inexcusable. When you set an expectation, you _meet_ that expectation. If you _can't_ meet that expectation, you let people _know_ you're not going to meet it. When someone commissions me, I say, "You should have your commission by [date]." If that date is approaching and I know I'm not going to have it finished by then, I will tell my commissioner, "Sorry, but things have prevented me from getting your commission done - but it should be ready by [new date]" (and offer a partial refund sometimes). 

I'm not going to join the hordes who are saying, "Get the site back up now or else I'm leaving". I like FurAffinity too much. Yes, it has issues. I'm not a coder or IT professional, but I know things could be better. But I _like _FA. So I'm not going to say I'm leaving the site if it doesn't come back online NOW. Let's assume good faith here. BUT - at the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more updates or them letting us know what's going on. I went out earlier today thinking, "Okay, they said mid-day today, so FA should be back up when I get back." Not only is it NOT back up, but it's showing the same banner it's BEEN showing for TWO DAYS, and there's no word on any new developments. That is the PINNACLE of unprofessional behavior. If it's going to take a while to get the site back up, okay - we'll just have to live with that. But the lack of updates when you KNOW how many people are waiting for words is just not acceptable.


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## Pujot (Dec 13, 2013)

seaweed said:


> Admittedly, of course, there are some that are just quick little updates that mean nothing, but there are some that do indeed mean something to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the program SAI.  I have heard good things about it, but if I remember correctly, isn't it about 50-60 dollars for it?


GIMP, which is free, supports .psd.


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## seaweed (Dec 13, 2013)

Pujot said:


> GIMP, which is free, supports .psd.





Ah, it does?  I had GIMP in the past, it is easy enough to re-download. I will look into that, thanks.


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## BlazeIgnitus (Dec 13, 2013)

DrkKaiser said:


> English means nothing when it comes to manners, respect, and general etiquette when dealing with others.
> That's not your forte, and I regret that someone like you hasn't the foresight to be capable of seeing the difference between the two.
> 
> English is a language amongst many used to facilitate emotions, meaning, and intent with words established for such situations, moods, or scenarios.
> ...



I know what manners and etiquette are. A pity you don't seem to. Get off your high horse. I've been raised by quite strict parents, my father being quite traditional in terms of discipline. Enough with beating your "education" over everyone. I made my status as an English teacher known because using dictionary definitions falls under the topic of English and/or languages. Further, as a teacher, I have to deal with "manners" and "etiquette" all the time in teaching my students those, in addition to English, in addition to character development.


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## Ozriel (Dec 13, 2013)

Hey guys, please keep it civil and on topic or I am going to have to lock the thread.


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## Kalmor (Dec 13, 2013)

Again, knock it off with the aggression guys or I'll be forced to lock this thread.

ed: Dammit Ozzy. :V


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## Eulemur (Dec 13, 2013)

Melkiah said:


> Also really? Don't let your holiday season be spoiled because a website is down? XD



^^^^ Really easy to say when the site just gives you extra fun-money and you're not suddenly running the risk of eviction because the place where you do business suddenly and unexpectedly closed down for nearly a week. 

Imagine your boss went up to you one work day while you were there working and said "Guess what? You are now on unpaid leave and idk when you can come back!! Also I won't be sending the check out for the days you HAVE worked until after you come back, lol, hope that's cool!!!" 

That's what it's like. 

I, personally, am getting a little sick of "OH, WE'LL BE BACK UP SOON" "OOPS, WE'LL BE BACK UP TOMORROW INSTEAD" "OH, NO, TOMORROW FOR SURE" and so on. And as someone who has personally put money into the site, I have a right to be a little fed up. 

I'd just like all this bullshit to be over soon.


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## Shiekra Tora (Dec 13, 2013)

Glaice said:


> The problem is Yak is too stubborn (IIRC) to share the code and Dragoneer may be uncomfortable allowing new people access to it other than the FA-friends clique of his.



Wouldn't doubt the clique issue, not in the slightest. If there's one thing the furry community has in spades, it's cliques and social groups and most of the time it's that childish/high school behavior that causes so many dammed problems.

I still say running any type of donation drive is a bad idea. Like I said before, looking at the donation page and seeing it went a little over 3 years with constant updates on donation status (even if no one donated) and then nothing for the last few months, yet it's still giving us the information TO donate? If that's not a dammed red flag I don't know what is.


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## StevenRoy (Dec 13, 2013)

*Seven days without food makes one weak...*

Regarding "scraping" the data from your FA galleries and journals: Yes, that  can be done. It wouldn't be that complicated to write a program that  will download all your journals, save them and their contents (and even  all the comments, if desired) into text (or XML, or plist) files,  including the dates. If you want to repost your journals elsewhere, they  won't have the same dates, but you can easily add a line to the top of  every journal saying something like "[Originally posted on FA on Dec 10  2012]". (If the site you're migrating to supports it, the dates can be  set directly too, but that's very very unlikely.) For gallery submissions, info like the titles, tags,  categories and everything can all be stored in text (or XML et cetera),  and the files themselves (and their thumbs, if any) downloaded into the  same location.

As for what you'd do with these backups, that's up to you. Writing a program that will upload all this data  elsewhere (such as Weasyl) might be slightly more complicated, but still  very possible! (As for whether Weasyl will like it, however, is another matter entirely. For now, though, let's pretend it's not relevant.)

In theory, at least, there's a way to make it work. I've done this kind of programming before.

...But I really doubt we've reached the point where it's even feasible to consider these steps. It's (probably) not yet time to panic!


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## FoxWolfie (Dec 13, 2013)

Subdivisions said:


> It's been over a week now, and at first I was worried that I wouldn't be able to make any money for christmas, but now I'm starting to worry that FA will be down so long that I won't be able to make enough for rent.



No.  It's only been 3 days and 17 hours as I write this.  The site has not been down for over a week!  Exaggerating the length of the down time will not make them fix it any faster.  I was around when the site was down for a full month a few years ago, but I am now seeing people referring to that as having been several months.  Down time is never good, but exaggerating those times never helps anyone.

Down time happens on all sites, usually without prior notice. The only good remedies are to always have backups of anything that is important, and to have alternative accounts on other sites, in case something bad happens.  You don't need to use your alternative accounts, but having them comes in handy when something goes wrong with your preferred site.  Put contact info on each of your sites that says, "in the event of problems with this site, I can be found on Alternative-Site-1 or Alternative-Site-2".  That allows commissions to continue, and potentially for new people to discover you, even when FA is down.


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## Subdivisions (Dec 13, 2013)

FoxWolfie said:


> No.  It's only been 3 days and 17 hours as I write this.  The site has not been down for over a week!  Exaggerating the length of the down time will not make them fix it any faster.  I was around when the site was down for a full month a few years ago, but I am now seeing people referring to that as having been several months.  Down time is never good, but exaggerating those times never helps anyone.
> 
> Down time happens on all sites, usually without prior notice. The only good remedies are to always have backups of anything that is important, and to have alternative accounts on other sites, in case something bad happens.  You don't need to use your alternative accounts, but having them comes in handy when something goes wrong with your preferred site.  Put contact info on each of your sites that says, "in the event of problems with this site, I can be found on Alternative-Site-1 or Alternative-Site-2".  That allows commissions to continue, and potentially for new people to discover you, even when FA is down.



I wasn't really, purposefully exaggerating, I don't have the best perception of time. There really isn't any need to get aggressive about it. The post wasn't really directed at anyone anyways, I was just expressing my feelings about something that I don't have any control over. 

Other sites don't really yield the sort of userbase required to make ends meet, your assumption that I don't already have a presence in other art sites is kind of annoying. I try to get commissions on other sites a lot, and sometimes I do get them, but not enough for it to make a very big impact on income. I actually do have contact information set up on my userpage for downtime, so that assumption is also frustrating to hear. Just because someone has those things put in place, doesn't really make the fact that the only way to get new commissions is now gone for an undetermined amount of days.
I put money into FA in the advertising facet as well, so I do feel I have a right to express a little bit of sadness over the fact that this site-crash has happened and isn't showing any signs of coming back up for at least another day. For someone who makes commissions for a living (and this way of earning income wasn't a choice) every day makes a difference.


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## Pujot (Dec 13, 2013)

DixieVonFur said:


> Leave it to furries to completely twist the topic and make drama where there really isn't any. [...] the down time is a nice break from tossing all my time into the site. It's almost like.. *I have a life!*





Pujot said:


> If there's a more clever post than this one, show it to me.





Melkiah said:


> Wow, someone's priorities don't line up with mine. Let's thrash a thread because my views aren't being considered...
> 
> I'd have to say that this post was off-topic and quite unoriginal at best.





Pujot said:


> Excuse me then.


Still, i'd want to point it out to the dramafuelers (not people discussing the tech part obviously) in this thread that there are other things aside from FA. Sorry to every commission-dependant artist that might've been offended by my post. Maybe I should've put some kind of disclaimer in the first place.


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## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> I still say running any type of donation drive is a bad idea. Like I said before, looking at the donation page and seeing it went a little over 3 years with constant updates on donation status (even if no one donated) and then nothing for the last few months, yet it's still giving us the information TO donate? If that's not a dammed red flag I don't know what is.


I guess it's kind of pointless to update it if no one's donating :/

I mean if people did one of their own accord and then personally gave the money to 'Neer that wouldn't cause as much of a problem would it? All he'd really be able to do is either decline the offer (which would be pretty silly) or accept it and put it towards getting the site in better shape. 

It actually doesn't sound like a bad idea if it's handled correctly.


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## Shiekra Tora (Dec 13, 2013)

Willow said:


> I guess it's kind of pointless to update it if no one's donating :/
> 
> I mean if people did one of their own accord and then personally gave the money to 'Neer that wouldn't cause as much of a problem would it?



Normally I'd agree with the "pointless to update" part of that, but when I look at the page and see 3 months, 4 months, 7 months all in a row all saying "No donations received." and then it up and stops, it gives me pause.

There is a chance that no one is donating because they realize the money they are using isin't going anywhere productive with the frequent downtime, but that's just a thought,


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## FoxWolfie (Dec 13, 2013)

Subdivisions said:


> I wasn't really, purposefully exaggerating, I don't have the best perception of time.



I wasn't intending to sound aggressive - just making sure that aren't seeing the problem as being bigger than it already is.

I never said that you didn't have a presence on other sites, but it is common for many people to not, or to not have a discoverable way to find them.  I know that not having FA is a major blow to people trying to get new submissions.  If you already have your presence spread over multiple sites, and people can find you from one site to another, then you are already doing as much as you can.  What I said was basically a general way to reduce the impact when FA goes down, but I know it is still a problem.  All we can do is wait it out and hope that it's back before the weekend is over.

They did say that they would be extending people's paid-for advertising by at least an extra ten days, so hopefully, that makes everything even in the end.  Unfortunately, the frustration part can't be as easily undone, and everyone is getting a dose of that.


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## rjbartrop (Dec 13, 2013)

Pujot said:


> Still, i'd want to point it out to the dramafuelers (not people discussing the tech part obviously) in this thread that there are other things aside from FA. Sorry to every commission-dependant artist that might've been offended by my post. Maybe I should've put some kind of disclaimer in the first place.



I do think it is a warning that stuff happens, and you ignore Murphy's Laws at your peril.


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## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> Normally I'd agree with the "pointless to update" part of that, but when I look at the page and see 3 months, 4 months, 7 months all in a row all saying "No donations received." and then it up and stops, it gives me pause.
> 
> There is a chance that no one is donating because they realize the money they are using isin't going anywhere productive with the frequent downtime, but that's just a thought,


Well yeah true it does seem odd but I'm just saying, after awhile of having to put down that no one's donating even after several months of it just kind of gets tedious. 

I think it'd be better if people put together funds and said specifically what this money will go towards. I know part of donations go towards just running and maintaining servers as well as on new hardware but after that I'm not sure what happens with it. People just need to be willing to work together and stop the incessant bickering about this that or the other in regards to the site or the staff. Because insulting either really doesn't help the situation and kind of has the opposite effect. Just a thought.


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## Myr (Dec 13, 2013)

Oh wow...this thread really went off on a tangent.

Since benanderson posted UI images earlier I'm going to post a couple of potential database images.

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/aurorandragon/AffinityUserPage_zpsa4d5f21f.png
This would be the data required to render a user page at the moment. I have included support for

Groups - Real and proper groups with their own roles (administrative structures) and submission catalogs.
Journals
Streams - No more submission or journal spam!
Submissions - Any accepted format and allows for multiple stakeholders so both the artist and commissioner can share the same submission ID! No more go check out the original with a link in the description.
Shouts
Watching - Now with support to watch people only for certain content.
Submission Blocking by Tag - Essentially a filter.
User Blocking
Group Blocking - No, for the 20th time, I do not want to join your TF2 group. Stop inviting me.
Ability to Specify if accepting Commissions, Trades, Requests - Will make finding an artist to commission way easier! No more hunting through the main site's gallery or the search pages.
And more!
I kept the user, their name, and their ID separate from the details because I want the users table cached. I want the name, avatar (determined by id number in this schema), and roles (site wide access privileges) to be looked up quickly at all times. This data has to be constantly in memory because everyone likes linking avatars or seeing who made what submission or comment. The user table is no doubt the table that gets the hardest hit when it comes to reads so let's keep that lean and mean. You only need all the other details when logging in or visiting a specific user's page.

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/aurorandragon/AffinityOverall_zpscc16e93b.png
This is an overall database snapshot. it is not complete. It is messy. Things could potentially be optimized. Here you can see replication of all of FA's core essential features plus more. I'm not quite done with the watching capabilities, trouble tickets, or anything like that though. More work is required.

This is just a start. It's not perfect. Things need to be changed, created, deleted, and so on. I did say I wanted to provide a server, architecture, and get this project going. I've talked to Dragoneer in the past about this sort of project. i am totally happy to take the lead as long as people are accepting of that. I will need to go reaffirm approval if we do this, and I would rather keep the existing FA technical people out of this -- they have their hands full, and if they don't they should.

We'll worry about moving content from the existing FA to what we build when the time comes. I can tell you I've personally overseen the migration of a couple sites used internally by my past employers. FA is a global site though, so simply copying things overnight my time really doesn't cut it. However, that is what we did. People came in the next day and were surprised everything was different and working smoothly. It has been done and it can be done here.


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## PheagleAdler (Dec 13, 2013)

I for one am happy that we are getting updates at least once a day.


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## Northern-Crosshair (Dec 13, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> There is a chance that no one is donating because they realize the money they are using isin't going anywhere productive with the frequent downtime, but that's just a thought,


I mentioned earlier that this was the case for me and I bet there are others who are refraining from donating to FA because they feel that they might as well throw the money off a bridge for as much good as it will do for the site.

Dragoneer knows full well what should/could be done to improve the site. I wish there was a way to pull a "Ghost of Christmas Future" and show him what FA could be if he changed the way things are ran because I think he would like what he saw.


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## Shaon the Kozo (Dec 13, 2013)

Shiekra Tora said:


> ...There is a chance that no one is donating because they realize the money they are using isin't going anywhere productive with the frequent downtime, but that's just a thought,



I agree with you, pretty much. I would donate if FA met any of its userbase halfway. There were numerous promises spanning for years about the new UI - all of which have gone nowhere. You can only provide empty promises for so long before the users start to think there's no point. The commission tab only just got fixed a few months ago, despite being down for years, so I do not see that as counting in the slightest. If they got a beta of the new UI up and running, or actually showed beyond screenshots that they were working on it, then I would gladly help. The problem, as I see it, is that people don't trust the staff (for obvious reasons) to actually do anything or care.

I'm not saying Neer doesn't care, because I believe he does. However, I think he has a poor way of showing it. Staff constantly does nothing and falls behind constantly, and the attempts to hire new people went nowhere (ferocity staff quit almost immediately, many of the mods from last time have retired or stepped down) and they refuse to get new coders. I don't know if Yak is just unwilling to change anything, or if he's too busy to, but either way he needs to have someone help him with it (and get over not wanting to share the code, if that's an issue as some people are saying) or be replaced. But the lack of staff working together, the lack of updates and kept promises, and the lack of coherent staff functionality is a huge issue. I love FA, even though I often hate what happens or the way it's run, and I want it to work. I, and many others, would be more than willing to help it if we had a legitimate reason to besides promises. We need actions, not words. That may sound harsh, since we use the site and aren't supporting it financially, but we have repeatedly asked for change and gotten nothing, so why would we blindly give them money when they're being dishonest or at the least, very lax about everything.

Also, FA owes its continued running to all the very generous people who donated all those parts and amazon gift cards half a year(a year?) ago. Without them, FA would have tanked. This shows that though donations are not regular, we DO want FA to work and we are more than willing to help if things actually change.


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## dreamsfar (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> Since benanderson posted UI images earlier I'm going to post a couple of potential database images.
> 
> http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/aurorandragon/AffinityUserPage_zpsa4d5f21f.png
> This would be the data required to render a user page at the moment.



Silly question (Because I am a relational database noob, but I like learning): Why do you have two one-to-many lines between the "users" and "watchList" tables?

And when I say I'm a noob - I mean that the biggest projects I've ever done are simple help desk ticketing trackers and equipment ordering-to-delivery workflow databases. SIMPLE ones. Like, "Access for Dummies"  and "PHP and MySQL for Dummies" level.

I love that you're excited enough about this to go through the effort of putting this together. Very cool, thank you!


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## thoron (Dec 13, 2013)

Shaon the Kozo said:


> I agree with you, pretty much. I would donate if FA met any of its userbase halfway. There were numerous promises spanning for years about the new UI - all of which have gone nowhere. You can only provide empty promises for so long before the users start to think there's no point. The commission tab only just got fixed a few months ago, despite being down for years, so I do not see that as counting in the slightest. If they got a beta of the new UI up and running, or actually showed beyond screenshots that they were working on it, then I would gladly help. The problem, as I see it, is that people don't trust the staff (for obvious reasons) to actually do anything or care.
> 
> I'm not saying Neer doesn't care, because I believe he does. However, I think he has a poor way of showing it. Staff constantly does nothing and falls behind constantly, and the attempts to hire new people went nowhere (ferocity staff quit almost immediately, many of the mods from last time have retired or stepped down) and they refuse to get new coders. I don't know if Yak is just unwilling to change anything, or if he's too busy to, but either way he needs to have someone help him with it (and get over not wanting to share the code, if that's an issue as some people are saying) or be replaced. But the lack of staff working together, the lack of updates and kept promises, and the lack of coherent staff functionality is a huge issue. I love FA, even though I often hate what happens or the way it's run, and I want it to work. I, and many others, would be more than willing to help it if we had a legitimate reason to besides promises. We need actions, not words. That may sound harsh, since we use the site and aren't supporting it financially, but we have repeatedly asked for change and gotten nothing, so why would we blindly give them money when they're being dishonest or at the least, very lax about everything.
> 
> Also, FA owes its continued running to all the very generous people who donated all those parts and amazon gift cards half a year(a year?) ago. Without them, FA would have tanked. This shows that though donations are not regular, we DO want FA to work and we are more than willing to help if things actually change.



I recall them having betas up for the public to test in the past, the problem is that they aren't around for very long. The last beta I remember leading to anything was the switching of the menu bar from below the banner to above the banner as well the ability to hide favorites and delete comments and disable ones profile page. Not much else has happened on this site.

I do wonder how many serveres FA has running cause it might excelerate improvements if there is one serever that is completely separate but has a complete copy of FA on it.


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## Mint Chip (Dec 13, 2013)

Eulemur said:


> ^^^^ Really easy to say when the site just gives you extra fun-money and you're not suddenly running the risk of eviction because the place where you do business suddenly and unexpectedly closed down for nearly a week.
> 
> Imagine your boss went up to you one work day while you were there working and said "Guess what? You are now on unpaid leave and idk when you can come back!! Also I won't be sending the check out for the days you HAVE worked until after you come back, lol, hope that's cool!!!"
> 
> ...



I see your point and that is really rough. They do have a section of this forum however where you can open for commissions, etc there. Perhaps try that while FA's main site is down? It's a little harder, but it is possible to do. (Just a suggestion. I don't want to get caught in the middle of a crossfire, but I did want to throw that option to you just in case it could help you at this moment in time.)


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## Lotix (Dec 13, 2013)

VERY exciting Myr!!! Do you think benanderson will be working with you on this? I have really high hopes if you two get in on this because both of you have shown such an amazing amount of results in just the past two days!

If approved by neer, what would you say an ETA would be for completion from start to finish and what would us users be experiencing while these changes were happening?

EDIT: I have a few ideas that im sure would be great perks for artists as im sure other people have some as well. Will there be open discussion for improvements, changes, etc?

and maybe we should open a new thread that would purely discuss this.


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## Kaeko (Dec 13, 2013)

I think we all want the delivery confirmation #


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## zachhart12 (Dec 13, 2013)

Shaon the Kozo said:


> I agree with you, pretty much. I would donate if FA met any of its userbase halfway. There were numerous promises spanning for years about the new UI - all of which have gone nowhere. You can only provide empty promises for so long before the users start to think there's no point. The commission tab only just got fixed a few months ago, despite being down for years, so I do not see that as counting in the slightest. If they got a beta of the new UI up and running, or actually showed beyond screenshots that they were working on it, then I would gladly help. The problem, as I see it, is that people don't trust the staff (for obvious reasons) to actually do anything or care.
> 
> I'm not saying Neer doesn't care, because I believe he does. However, I think he has a poor way of showing it. Staff constantly does nothing and falls behind constantly, and the attempts to hire new people went nowhere (ferocity staff quit almost immediately, many of the mods from last time have retired or stepped down) and they refuse to get new coders. I don't know if Yak is just unwilling to change anything, or if he's too busy to, but either way he needs to have someone help him with it (and get over not wanting to share the code, if that's an issue as some people are saying) or be replaced. But the lack of staff working together, the lack of updates and kept promises, and the lack of coherent staff functionality is a huge issue. I love FA, even though I often hate what happens or the way it's run, and I want it to work. I, and many others, would be more than willing to help it if we had a legitimate reason to besides promises. We need actions, not words. That may sound harsh, since we use the site and aren't supporting it financially, but we have repeatedly asked for change and gotten nothing, so why would we blindly give them money when they're being dishonest or at the least, very lax about everything.
> 
> Also, FA owes its continued running to all the very generous people who donated all those parts and amazon gift cards half a year(a year?) ago. Without them, FA would have tanked. This shows that though donations are not regular, we DO want FA to work and we are more than willing to help if things actually change.



Well said.  I'd be willing to donate some money every month if I know for sure it goes to something worthwhile, I think we all would (most?)!

Edit:  Just realized that if they have hard drive failures a lot (maybe once or twice a year from what I've noticed), why do they order HD's at that time and only then?  Order some backups to keep laying around for next time..  I'd donate money for that!


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## GreenReaper (Dec 13, 2013)

For those keen on saving their journals and submissions locally, one of the best ways would simply be to hit Ctrl+S (or whatever the key is for "save" on your browser). They can all save a complete copy of the page and its images, which you can open later in any web browser and which will probably be far smaller than a screenshot of it. Be sure to keep any associated image folder with the HTML file.

As for submissions, there are various inter-site transfer and download tools, though none of them are likely to preserve comments (indeed, transferring them would be a copyright violation).


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## benanderson (Dec 13, 2013)

Myr said:


> Oh wow...this thread really went off on a tangent.
> 
> Since benanderson posted UI images earlier I'm going to post a couple of potential database images.
> 
> ...



The only issues I see there are some of the names need to be more descriptive ("watcher" for the primary, for IE, could be something like "user_in_watchlist_id") - but from a very quick glance at 2:45 in the morning I don't see anything I'd change.

I have quite the beefy desktop computer (6-core Xeon W3680, 12GB ECC RAM) so I could very easily throw some VMs into place on my spare disk (with a standard image in reserve) and get stuff running for testing on my end as well some quick and filthy PHP (really, really filthy hack job stuff) to get it off the floor. Throw in some database stress testing for good measure to see how it all reacts and we're golden. May even bring my old IBM X336 out of the cupboard for this (though it only has 2GB of RAM so its usefulness is questionable - it also wouldn't be 24 hour because it is ball crushingly loud).

In the meanwhile, I'm still throwing together the front end. There are some bounding box issues in IE (as ever) which can be fixed with some conditional comments and the mobile responsive CSS/JS still needs to be put into place. That's, what, an hours work if nothing breaks? 

After that its just a case of getting the other pages done. The next page will be an actual submission.

One idea I had was a "show comments" button - why load comments that can go for miles and miles? If the user wants to read them, they can and it can be done with some simple AJAX.


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## Willow (Dec 13, 2013)

thoron said:


> I recall them having betas up for the public to test in the past, the problem is that they aren't around for very long. The last beta I remember leading to anything was the switching of the menu bar from below the banner to above the banner as well the ability to hide favorites and delete comments and disable ones profile page. Not much else has happened on this site.


There was one not too long ago right before the site went down too.


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## Trpdwarf (Dec 13, 2013)

Multiple in thread warnings have been put up over the course of the last 10-15 pages or so asking people to be civil, polite, and on topic. As it stands there is little more to be gained from this topic remaining open as people continue to toe the line with staff, and toe the line with the warnings. So for now this thread is going to be closed. If you waiting for updates, I ask for you all to be patient. They will come the moment they are available. In the mean time there is a whole world out there to go visit and explore. Take the time to catch up on a series, read a book, play a game you have put off for a while, go window shopping, visit a park...etc. We will have updates to you as soon as we can.

As for the topic at hand, new threads about this will be shut down. We understand you are frustrated and trust me, many of us are too. All staff and users just like you. We like to see the website up and running because it is a nice thing that we all use. We can't have this continue with the frustrations turning into the behaviors that keep boiling over in this thread. If necessary we will reopen this.


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