# Can someone clarify the whole reffing poses thing for me?



## Pyridene (Jul 8, 2010)

Okay so this has been seriously bugging me ever since I started taking drawing seriously.

I understand that (at least for me) if I want to draw something well, I must use references or be drawing the thing from life. I also understand that poses can't be copyrighted though photographs are. 

So, what I don't understand is why people seem to flip out when they find a photograph that has the same pose as a someone's art and start accusing that person of tracing or pose stealing. 

I thought that as long as you only take the pose from the photo and are not tracing but eyeballing the pose, then it's all good. There's no problem here. 

Yet I just saw an example where someone mildly accused an artist of tracing and they put the photo and art next to each other. But last time I checked isn't that the purpose of using refs? To get your drawn pose to match as best you can to your reference material? If an artists' art looks like it matches perfectly with their reference doesn't that mean that that artists is incredibly skilled? (assuming of course that the pose wasn't traced).

Can some one clear this up for me? I don't want to accidentally piss someone off because I'm mistaken on how to properly use refs ect. 

Thanks.


----------



## Willow (Jul 8, 2010)

The original artist is just being a little shit basically

There is _nothing_ wrong with using a picture as a post reference, or any other reference for that matter

The only thing you want to avoid is copying that character exactly

Now of course, I sorta see where someone would want to point the "copy cat" finger, but still, they need to get over it

But that's how I see it


----------



## Stormrunner (Jul 8, 2010)

I think the biggest thing is if you overlay the image and it matches 100%.  There should be some sway to left or right as each artist has their own way of drawing from photos.  I tend to mix poses, or just draw them freehand - but I've been doing this a while.


----------



## Willow (Jul 8, 2010)

Stormrunner said:


> I think the biggest thing is if you overlay the image and it matches 100%.  There should be some sway to left or right as each artist has their own way of drawing from photos.  I tend to mix poses, or just draw them freehand - but I've been doing this a while.


 In a sense yes it would be like tracing an artist's picture I guess, but if you're using it to get a pose down that you've already got in mind then, there really isn't that much of a problem

But artists crying like they stole the picture entirely is pushing it


----------



## Stormrunner (Jul 8, 2010)

WillowWulf said:


> In a sense yes it would be like tracing an artist's picture I guess, but if you're using it to get a pose down that you've already got in mind then, there really isn't that much of a problem
> 
> But artists crying like they stole the picture entirely is pushing it



As long as there is a reference and it is not a copyrighted photo (most are however) then tracing is alright.

However, people have been banned from FA for tracing and not sighting references, or tracing things without an artist permission.  When you trace an artist work, you are also tracing their style, and you won't learn to draw in your own style that way.


----------



## Pyridene (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't support tracing but I have seen people who have used references being accused of tracing because lines match up. And I do understand that when you do use refs, not every line will match up. That's practically impossible to do when eyeballing.

Edit: Of course, I also should mention that I'm not good at recognizing when someone has traced vs. reffed.


----------



## Stormrunner (Jul 9, 2010)

Pyridene said:


> I don't support tracing but I have seen people who have used references being accused of tracing because lines match up. And I do understand that when you do use refs, not every line will match up. That's practically impossible to do when eyeballing.
> 
> Edit: Of course, I also should mention that I'm not good at recognizing when someone has traced vs. reffed.


 
You won't know the difference unless the picture it was traced from is found and compared.  In general just looking at a piece and knowing the artist it belongs too will do as well.

I say trace all you want outside of posting to get use to referencing, just don't post it online without pointing to the ref if an image, or asking permission if you used someones art..


----------



## Zydala (Jul 9, 2010)

It's also sort of bad manners to use references and not cite them. Sort of like taking information from someone's research and putting it in your paper for school. You know how there's rules to quoting people's works, or citing them at the end of a paper if they were a source? It's sort of like that, to me.

When you trace, you're not really helping yourself with your art, for one thing... you're just taking someone else's ideas/pieces and trying to pass it off as your own. If you heavily reference and not cite it, it's just kind of rude and doesn't give credit to someone else's hard work.


----------



## Willow (Jul 9, 2010)

I'd use pose references for anatomy and that's about it

To draw out how the skeleton should be and how it works with the contour of the body 

That's how you use a pose ref


----------



## Jw (Jul 9, 2010)

My best solution to this issue is this: ask your friends if you can snap a couple pic of them for drawing purposes. You won't get as many (chances are), but you will have control over the pose, lighting, and you won't have to hear any griping from yourself over copying your photos. 

I've never really had an issue with stock photo providers flipping out, but it's common courtesy to give credit to them for the original item. An easy way to avoid angering them is by drawing a few things, shout on their page giving thanks for the helpful photos, and link to the items. They'll likely be flattered and more level-headed towards you.

But, in short, refs are used to train your eye to draw what you see. You might be looking for lighting, anatomy, or something else. As long as the ref artist says "These pictures are for reference" and you credit them in the description, then I wouldn't worry about it. If someone still harasses you, move on to another stock provider. You don't have to deal with their crap, there's several more out there.


----------



## Pyridene (Jul 9, 2010)

Getting friends to pose is a good idea. Or just creating the stock yourself I guess. 

I'm going to have to find some alternative stock providers though since much of the stock that I use isn't allowed to be posted outside of DA which means no FA or conceptart sketchblogs.


----------



## Stormrunner (Jul 9, 2010)

Pyridene said:


> Getting friends to pose is a good idea. Or just creating the stock yourself I guess.
> 
> I'm going to have to find some alternative stock providers though since much of the stock that I use isn't allowed to be posted outside of DA which means no FA or conceptart sketchblogs.


 
There is a lot of stock on DA that you can use as reference, as long as you site the source.  Some you don't even have to do that.

It is easiest to use the side panel and go by category then searching terms.  Usually, terms will bring up good stuff, but may miss those that people do not put search terms on.


----------



## Jw (Jul 9, 2010)

Stormrunner said:


> There is a lot of stock on DA that you can use as reference, as long as you site the source.  Some you don't even have to do that.
> 
> It is easiest to use the side panel and go by category then searching terms.  Usually, terms will bring up good stuff, but may miss those that people do not put search terms on.


 
Yep-- I search Resources & Stock Images> Stock Images> Model> Male or Female> etc.

Most of the popular ones probably will be fairly kind to you. You don't tend to get popular by being an asshole. Unless you're rich or something.


----------



## RipfangDragon (Jul 12, 2010)

There are a lot of artists who don't seem to link the references they used to give appropriate credit to the other images, whether it's stock image, another art piece (which I personally frown upon), your own photographs, or labeling it as "drawn from life."  Life cannot be copyrighted at all, so using a source directly from life is never a problem.  I highly encourage referencing from life, as well, because it's the best way to learn.  As for photographs (and even drawn images), most of the ones that are found online have been published somewhere, or are under copyright protection, which is where the controversy comes from.  If it is as such, an artist would need the copyright holder's permission.  Yes, it's just a pose, but you have to take into consideration the creative work that has gone into the more interesting photo poses.  It's not necessarily the pose that's the problem, but the creative licenses.  If you find the image on google, I would avoid using it unless it's just a loose reference.  Stock images also need permission in most cases.  Always ask permission, and if you can't ask, then don't use it.

It's a touchy subject, but the best way to go about it is to be cautious and safe so that you don't get into trouble.  If a piece too closely resembles another that has been published, there's the possibility that you can get into a lot of legal trouble.

I hope I helped some.   And I hope the above posters helped too!


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jul 12, 2010)

Here, let's make it a bit more simple:

http://www.conceptart.org/copyright/

Basically if a lawsuit happens the basis as to whether or not someone has a case "If the average person can go ' yeah that looks like a copy of the other work'..."

When one can be sued: if the other person has a registered copyright (at least in the US and within a certain timeframe of that registered copyright - meaning you can't just register it a few years down the line and win a lawsuit). Copyright lawyers also want this money up front if you are to pursue, even if it's an open and shut case. 

However, one can make you cease and desist and there could be consequences for not following that after being served a C&D, however, the cost upfront for the person to make on stop is difficult with a non registered copyright. It's even more costly since you can't even receive damages.

*Photos fall under the same copyright protection as an illustration. Just because you can eyeball it doesn't make it better.*

Saying that, reference is awesome, it's alright to reference. It's not alright to reference from something without respecting the other person's copyright. Stock photographers have their own conditions so read them before using. Googling photos does not make them copyright free.


----------



## Pyridene (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies! Yeah, what I'm trying to do is figure out the proper balance between references/stock and making sure that I don't on accidentally break copyright laws but at the same time, I'm slowly becoming afraid to draw because no matter what I draw, I'm sure someone has already drawn it somewhere else on the internet. I don't want to get a C and D order just because my poses are similar to other people's.

Also, @Arches Nei, that link to conceptart leads to a weird directory.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Jul 12, 2010)

Pyridene said:


> Also, @Arches Nei, that link to conceptart leads to a weird directory.



It's Arshes... 

Uhh yeah.... you see the file in it? It's a powerpoint presentation done by lawyers who deal with copyright.


----------



## Pyridene (Jul 12, 2010)

Sorry, I must have misread your name.@_@  Thanks for clearing that up, I'm downloading the it now.


----------



## RipfangDragon (Jul 13, 2010)

Pyridene said:


> Thanks for all the replies! Yeah, what I'm trying to do is figure out the proper balance between references/stock and making sure that I don't on accidentally break copyright laws but at the same time, I'm slowly becoming afraid to draw because no matter what I draw, I'm sure someone has already drawn it somewhere else on the internet. I don't want to get a C and D order just because my poses are similar to other people's.
> 
> Also, @Arches Nei, that link to conceptart leads to a weird directory.



If you're drawing from imagination, don't worry about it.  As for using references, stick to life and stock just to be safe 



@Arshes: That is a wonderful link. Thank you


----------

