# People like this



## DaxterD1 (Jan 16, 2008)

There's been a lot of members like this one lately

http://www.furaffinity.net/user/hallofshame/

I personally think that they shouldn't stay on FA for making people they watch/favourite look worse (particularly if they have no artistic talent themselves). This has happened before and counted as Harrassment when I sent it by PM, but this time I think it's worth me making a topic on it. These kinds of people could drive away members after all.


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## kayedarktail (Jan 16, 2008)

Bawwwwww

Here's their "mission statement": http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/281423/

"What this means is mainly, if someone offers a artist advice on how to improve since they wanna help and the struggling artist refuses or comes up with the excuse "I jus try to b bad lul" then they get added. This place holds -no- grudges against anyone, we don't judge you or your friends or anything, only the art, so if you get a watch or fav, don't worry we don't hate you and you don't need to call the admins to sic us."

Translated, if you react badly to or refuse to take any form of critique, you're showcased.  It's not actually harassment, because apparently the people in charge of the account aren't going to go out of their way to bother you.  It's just an opinion.  And everyone's allowed to have their opinion right?

Indeed it might drive away members, but considering the quality of many of these pictures and the temperament of these easily-hurt "artists", it might be a good thing.  You know, for those of us who don't want to have to bleach our eyes with every new view of the front page.

I suggest you wait until this account actually and legitimately harasses someone in a verbal manner, and _the person who was harassed_ complains about it.  Otherwise, this is an unfair example of reporting someone because they _might_ do something "bad".  Witch hunts, etc.


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## Niiku (Jan 16, 2008)

kayedarktail said:
			
		

> I suggest you wait until this account actually and legitimately harasses someone in a verbal manner, and _the person who was harassed_ complains about it.  Otherwise, this is an unfair example of reporting someone because they _might_ do something "bad".  Witch hunts, etc.



Yes, I quite agree with this. You couldn't walk down the street, see a man in a trench coat and glasses, and ask the police to arrest him because he looks like he might mug a lady. That's how the "real world" works. And I see nothing involving harassment happening with that user.


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## 2ndVenus (Jan 16, 2008)

Yeah but this isnt helping build our community. Especially when on his profile it says "Vore is murder" which shouldn't really be boasted about like its a fact, especially when most of the artists he is "Naming and Shaming" are mostly vore artists. At lease can he be informed to Un-add Blue-Dragon from the watch list, he has really been effected by this and thats why im here. Its not fair on him at least, all his work he does for us being called crap is damaging not only his good reputation but his spirit, he draws not only for himself but for his friends, art's not only about being Michaelangelo here.


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## Icarus (Jan 17, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> "Vore is murder" which shouldn't really be boasted about like its a fact,



...?
Technical "vore" _is_ killing.
An animal kills another animal to feast on it's flesh and therefore gain a food source.  The predator eats the prey it kills (whether it be a constrictor snake to a lioness on the prowl) and gets to live for another day.


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## 2ndVenus (Jan 17, 2008)

In real life yes but in the Vore community most prefer to respawn or regenerate as part of the vore fetish to be experienced once again, but thats off topic into another story.

What if you spent your entire week drawing a realistic dragon picture that was later being awarded with "Hall of worst art ever" title, you would feel slightly offended no?

You look at this conversation and please tell me you dont support this kind of behaviour:
-
Snake: Can you please un-watch my friend Blue-Dragon, youre upsetting him he's real sensetive :/

Hallofshame: *pinches fingers* Not yet, read my journal a bit, seriously, shouldn't be getting upset.

Snake: I understand your journal friend, but naming and shaming my friend is hurting his feelings, you arent helping us. 
---

Who's he to call my friends artwork a load of crap, then tell him how he should be feeling, cant you realise what is right from wrong. I emplore you to look into your heart and search for sympathy. There's criticism, then there's just down right evil natured behaviour that doesn't help anybody.

I know you guys will do the right thing 
---
EDIT: Things are sorted through, this can be probably be closed now.
You guys are righteous. And i thank you with my heart.


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## kayedarktail (Jan 17, 2008)

This was not a harassment case, and the ban was a poor show of power on the admins' parts.  The account did not actively harass other users to my knowledge -- the only people it hurt were oversensitive whiners that, frankly, could _use_ a good critique or two.

Next time why don't you ban someone who's been actively harassing people rather than simply faving art?  I mean seriously faving things under an account like "hall of shame" is probably the most harmless form of "trolling" you can do on this site.


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## Milos (Jan 17, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> What if you spent your entire week drawing a realistic dragon picture that was later being awarded with "Hall of worst art ever" title, you would feel slightly offended no?



Objection!
What if I wear a red t-shirt and you feel offended?

What if you do a really crappy pic on purpose and you get a lot of nice comments and watches, would you feel ofended?


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## Aden (Jan 17, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> What if you spent your entire week drawing a realistic dragon picture that was later being awarded with "Hall of worst art ever" title, you would feel slightly offended no?



Possibly, and then I'd know that I suck. The account is like a wake-up call for people that are so far into their comfort zone that they can't see how honestly bad they are. While there are less abrasive ways of letting people know, this is quite effective. I'd take it as a signal to improve, myself, instead of bitching about how they've made me feel that I'm not special.

/And it's not harassment.


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## Damaratus (Jan 17, 2008)

kayedarktail said:
			
		

> This was not a harassment case, and the ban was a poor show of power on the admins' parts.  The account did not actively harass other users to my knowledge -- the only people it hurt were oversensitive whiners that, frankly, could _use_ a good critique or two.
> 
> Next time why don't you ban someone who's been actively harassing people rather than simply faving art?  I mean seriously faving things under an account like "hall of shame" is probably the most harmless form of "trolling" you can do on this site.



I use "you" and "your" as a collective term for all the folks 

Sift (last user of the Hall of Shame)
Purplestarz
Kayedarktail
et al.

who felt that Hall of Shame was strictly a good idea.  The underlying concept of trying to offer criticism is not a bad one.  The manner in how you go about it is the problem.

"Harmless 'trolling'" is also a rather interesting term.   I don't think there needs to be trolling on this site, it's not what it's meant for.  Additionally, those who started Hall of Shame should feel pretty shameful for hiding behind a user name in such a fashion, if you're going to make a statement like that, the least you can do is not wear a mask.  Saying whatever you want without the burden of the person knowing who you really are means you don't suffer any of the repercussions for your actions, that's actually pretty cowardly.

Rather than forcing your opinion on people you could have tried to make a "Hurt Me" style user name and let the people who want to get better show up instead of deciding subjectively which people on this site are "deserving" of the "pearls of wisdom" that Hall of Shame didn't really offer.  In fact, maybe you shouldn't start calling people shameful because of the artwork that they are trying to do, because degrading someone who might want to get better isn't often the best way to get them on the path to improvement.  

Do I think offering criticism is a bad thing?  Nah, it isn't, it can help some people grow in their artwork if it's presented in the right manner to those people.  Simply saying someone should be ashamed of their artwork doesn't really accomplish this, you get met more often with confusion and animosity, which isn't what we're trying to have on this site and really not something that's very useful to you all either.

The staff is more than open to listening to an idea for a kind of user name on the site designed to help people improve their artwork, there are areas on the forums that actually have done this quite well, and there are users on the site who already preface some of their work with -HM- if they happen to want some harsh criticism.  If you all want to give your opinion _that_ badly, you should talk to us rather than creating user names in poor sentiment like "Hall of Shame" and expecting it to stick around.


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## kayedarktail (Jan 17, 2008)

Perhaps there can be some kind of attraction to my small critique community once I work the major kinks in the system out.  I plan to use FA's ad system to get the word out and interested parties can get the critique they want.  But that doesn't help the part of the community that Hall of Shame, The Worst of FA, and similar accounts were trying to point out -- these people are not good artists, or they react badly to criticism.  They're still going to embarrass the fandom and the feel of the website, and it seems like they're the only ones who because they get so bent out of shape about the slightest threat to their popularity.

I don't know anyone who is 100% satisfied with this website.  While a perfect satisfaction rate is pretty much impossible, a search function would shut a lot of people up, and a content filter or artist filter would please even more people.  FAP has these, they've got a one-up on you guys.  Filters would sure as hell help cut down on the drama, because unless you're the kind of person who goes looking for trouble, you don't have to deal with "bad artists".


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## Damaratus (Jan 17, 2008)

kayedarktail said:
			
		

> Perhaps there can be some kind of attraction to my small critique community once I work the major kinks in the system out.  I plan to use FA's ad system to get the word out and interested parties can get the critique they want.  But that doesn't help the part of the community that Hall of Shame, The Worst of FA, and similar accounts were trying to point out -- these people are not good artists, or they react badly to criticism.  They're still going to embarrass the fandom and the feel of the website, and it seems like they're the only ones who because they get so bent out of shape about the slightest threat to their popularity.



And who are you, or even the collective of folks who considered themselves part of the Hall of Shame, to judge?  What makes you the person who is meant to seek out and bestow your opinion on these people in any manner?  Maybe you feel some embarrassment at someone posting artwork that you don't really like, but it's just as embarrassing for me to see folks in a community go after other users for purpose of trying to play arbiter and defamer, since I've seen users run off a site from that kind of treatment.  That's not very friendly and it's certainly not something I would want other users to have to bear.



			
				kayedarktail said:
			
		

> I don't know anyone who is 100% satisfied with this website.  While a perfect satisfaction rate is pretty much impossible, a search function would shut a lot of people up, and a content filter or artist filter would please even more people.  FAP has these, they've got a one-up on you guys.  Filters would sure as hell help cut down on the drama, because unless you're the kind of person who goes looking for trouble, you don't have to deal with "bad artists".



Not being 100% satisfied is alright, there is almost always room for improvement on the site.  There were a great many issues that bogged down the progression on this particular site.  FAPs programming is not the same and the intricacies of adjusting things here are different from there.  I'm sure that the amount of drama can be lessened with the addition of more user options, but it doesn't mean that the current state and current levels of drama need to be perpetuated by people who have decided to deem themselves subjective arbiters of the community.


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## kayedarktail (Jan 17, 2008)

Well, okay.  You guys know what you're doing and all that.  But why an outright ban?  Why aren't you telling people to use the block feature? (and maybe extend it to be more than 20 names)  That's what's annoying me the most.  Doesn't it prevent people from faving and replying to your submissions?  Sounds like it would be very effective in this case.

FA may not be a democracy, but I believe people should have a choice to see (or not see) what they want.


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## kjorteo (Jan 17, 2008)

Out of curiosity, did anyone even receive any complaints from people who were actually featured, or is this another pre-emptive just-in-case ban brought about by offended but uninvolved bystanders?


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## 2ndVenus (Jan 17, 2008)

kjorteo said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, did anyone even receive any complaints from people who were actually featured, or is this another pre-emptive just-in-case ban brought about by offended but uninvolved bystanders?



My friend was hurt, having spent his long drawing hours being a toon artist he becomes apart of the Hallofshame. He told me about him being added to the Hallofshame and that he didnt want to say anything incase he got attacked, i wasnt really supposed to say anything myself, but i felt yeah, you guys had gone too far for that i had to make some sorta stand that wont get him involved, you speak to me alone. The reason things have gone like it has is because there was no criticism involved to help better the artist, the Hallofshame tag that was judged by just a few people hiding behind a username was inappropriate that classed him ultimately as a bad artist. Would the user have been helpful providing criticism things could have been nice, but instead they; by their anonymously righteousness say like a fact that these people are just poor, and wont listen to critisism on how to get better as said in their journal (which is now gone) when they never even recieved any improvement suggesting criticism.

The way this username is being managed suggests they want to cause drama. I wont say thats thier goal obviously, i wouldnt want to be one to judge so ill leave that to the higher ups to make a conclusion.


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## Scranton (Jan 17, 2008)

sometimes i wonder why I became a furry in the first place...then i come to the forums and it all becomes so clear....


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## Damaratus (Jan 17, 2008)

kayedarktail said:
			
		

> Well, okay.  You guys know what you're doing and all that.  But why an outright ban?  Why aren't you telling people to use the block feature? (and maybe extend it to be more than 20 names)  That's what's annoying me the most.  Doesn't it prevent people from faving and replying to your submissions?  Sounds like it would be very effective in this case.



Well there's a few reasons for an outright ban versus your suggestion.  

The first being that the block function prevents commenting on images and journals as well as shouts, but it does not block someone from giving the artwork a +favorite.

The second is that telling people to block is a reactionary method, it's something they can't do until the damage has already been done, in this case being told they should be ashamed of their work.

The final reason is that the account was being used by multiple people.  At any point if one of them happens to be out of line, then all of the people connected to it could suffer repercussions.  Rather than have to deal with the drama that it could bring to both the rest of the users and the people who are trying to use the account for whatever means, the user name was banned.

There are far better and more constructive ways of doing what you all tried to do, rather than hide behind a user name and demean other users.



			
				kayedarktail said:
			
		

> FA may not be a democracy, but I believe people should have a choice to see (or not see) what they want.



That's a different concept all together in comparison to what you all were trying to do.  Having a choice as to what to see is already, in part, available on this site.  You only watch certain people, this means the only artwork that shows up in your new submissions is from people you want to watch.  If you do browse the whole main gallery, you're going to get a taste of everything that goes up, because it's the main gallery and not what you have selected.

Additionally, you spend a lot of time on wtf_fa, which is a place where you're only bound to see the stuff you wouldn't want to see, because everyone is posting it there, so it hardly seems logical to complain.

I do agree that additional support in terms of what people want to look for makes sense, and being able to block out certain content can lead to happier viewing for some people on the site.  That kind of thing is still in the works.  Causing additional eruptions of drama on the site doesn't help things progress toward that; however, being able to give constructive criticism in the right fashion can help to stem the tide of you seeing things that you'd rather not.  It's just that particular direction isn't being taken by you or the rest of the folks who were part of the Hall of Shame.


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## 2ndVenus (Jan 17, 2008)

Developments:

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/282206/

Im not 100% sure but piecing recent things said i strongly believe my pet is indirectly being insulted and then the insults, i believe will just blow my way if i post anymore in that journal. Me (2ndVenus) and Blue-Dragon, simply want to be left out of this without being pulled into such things we never wanted involved in in the first place.

Please sort things out, we just want to go our own way without being targeted and nuked. Its not fair on Blue-Dragon nor any of us having to deal with the level of negativity. Me and bluey at least just want to be left out of this, dont wanna fight anything  shouldnt have to.
None of this should have even happened to us.


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## kjorteo (Jan 17, 2008)

Objection!

Now hold on a second.  You're seriously trying to implicate Kaye for complaining about the situation in general, without naming names, in her own personal journal?  Are you serious?  That wasn't even remotely directed toward you.  It wasn't a shout, it wasn't a comment to a submission of yours...it wasn't even a comment to anyone else in a thread of comments on a submission of yours.  It is a personal journal directed at herself and her watchers.  Are you watching her?  If not, how the hell did you even find that, and what are you doing commenting on it?

You...sorry, _your pet_ is offended that Kaye is _maybe_ saying indirect things toward her own circle of friends and fans that could _maybe_ possibly be talking about you.  Even you just admitted you're not 100% sure.  All we know is that she is dissatisfied with the admins taking the side of thin-skinned whiners.  Are you a thin-skinned whiner?    Is your "pet?"  Because I certainly wasn't the one who said that, and I somehow doubt Kaye was.  And really, do we even have to know who specifically took issue to understand the situation in general?  Hallofshame is the third account _of which I'm personally aware_ to do the "I +fav terrible art" thing and get banned.  All I needed to hear was that it got banned, and from there, it was fairly easy to assume that either _someone_ whined about it or Damaratus is a wet blanket who shuts people down before anything even happened.  If I were to then complain about whiny users and the joyless admins who bend over backwards for them, it would end up looking eerily similar to what you see in Kaye's journal.  Should I get in trouble for offending you with that?  Keep in mind that at this point in my example, I don't even know who the hell you even _are._

I suggest you either back off and calm down, or find a way to ban me quickly.  After all, my mate will come home from work in a couple hours, and during the "how was your day" talk, I might tell him about an amusing bit of FA drama I dealt with today.  Lord knows I can't have an opinion _anywhere_ without being held accountable for it _here._


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## 2ndVenus (Jan 18, 2008)

You are evil...just pure evil.


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## Deadsyde (Jan 18, 2008)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> What makes you the person who is meant to seek out and bestow your opinion on these people in any manner?



Granted, I'm not sure of all of what is happening to concern this, but this one statement did catch my attention...

Isn't _everyone_ entitled the right to bestow their opinion on others?  If someone gets a bad opinion, they should take it with a grain of salt and deal with it.  If I think someone really sucks.  I'll tell them, "dude, you really suck."  When they flip out and cry and cry and cry and get their widdle feelings hurt, that's not my fault.  It's because they can't deal with the fact that the world won't sugar coat everything it hands them.


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## Tsuanuta (Jan 18, 2008)

...You know, i think a lot of this bitching could be solved if FA had an artwork application that has to be reviewed and accepted before people can start posting art. 
You know, like the thing ArtSpots has. I think that was a pretty neat idea and it's stops the brandwidth from being consumed by crap like MS paint drawings and Millions of identicle second life screenshots.


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## Aden (Jan 18, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> You are evil...just pure evil.



Yes, because logical = evil nowadays (see: religious flamewars).

So, what kind of comprimises can be made? If a new Hall of Shame-type account is created, will they be banned if they critique users' works instead of just +fav'ing them (i.e. Now you know you suck, but here's _why_ so you can improve)? 

I should also point out that I believe the Hall of Shame took into account personality traits as well as art skills when +fav'ing work, or so it seems.


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## themocaw (Jan 18, 2008)

There already is a hall of shame.  It's called WTF_FA and it does fine.

Seriously, this sort of shit does nothing but stir up drama and make people butthurt and irritated.  There was a time when I'd find that hilarious, but nowadays it just makes me tired.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 18, 2008)

themocaw said:
			
		

> There already is a hall of shame.  It's called WTF_FA and it does fine.
> 
> Seriously, this sort of shit does nothing but stir up drama and make people butthurt and irritated.  There was a time when I'd find that hilarious, but nowadays it just makes me tired.



QFT


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## Niiku (Jan 18, 2008)

Damaratus said:
			
		

> The second is that telling people to block is a reactionary method, it's something they can't do until the damage has already been done, in this case being told they should be ashamed of their work.



I believe it is pathetic that people are THIS fragile, that DAMAGE is being done by someone offering critique! GROW A BACKBONE PLEASE? Seriously! I can only imagine what shiny little fantasy world the artists who are getting all bent out of shape about this are living in.

*sigh*

I wish with all my heart that people could put aside egos for the sake of art around here, and honestly strive to improve. Instead of bitching and crying and cutting themselves when someone points out that they're really not all that good.

Oh wait, it's FA. Never mind.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 18, 2008)

Yeah but at the same time, the reason I'm agreeing with Themocaw's statement is that it's almost always the same usual suspects revolving themselves around the situation, saying the same things that aren't new. I like the fact wtf_fa is off site too, more fun and funny that way.

I do think people should grow a spines when it comes to comments too but it's funny how I don't see "hall of shame" naming their own members who felt it was shame worthy? "User of club/account 'hall of shame' faved this due to"

People should strive to improve but most don't because no one understand the process the person is doing to make improvements or aware of someone's time when they post art. We see the finished product and comment on that. It's not that it's bad but without understanding a thought process and just merely telling them "leg is wrong" "you don't take critiques" without understanding how they're coming up with those conclusions only frustrates an artist too.


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## Niiku (Jan 18, 2008)

Arshes, I see what you're saying, but you further prove my point by defending these over-sensitive people. I mean come on, this Blue-dragon fellow was so ZOMFG DESTROYED by this whole thing that he had to have someone else comment for him. Pathetic.

News flash, folks! Life is painful. Finding out that you suck at art is not the end of the world. You must never have had actual struggle, conflict, or pain in your comfortable little existence. :[


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 18, 2008)

I'm actually more neutral Niiku. I think it goes both ways, it's interesting how hall of shame is an anon account complaining that other artists should respect what they say but don't have the guts to say it themselves on their regular account. It's because they're afraid of being banned possibly? Or just as spineless as the people they claim to be.

No it isn't the end of the world if someone hates your work, but at least if you're gonna hate it, have the guts to be the one to say it.

I'm not afraid to give honest critiques, and if you read my critique thread I did say there were things to keep in mind giving and receiving critiques. I just don't give honest critiques on FA because they're really for the most part a fucking waste of time because drama tards have come in to argue with a critique a lot of times that person ASKED for. I've seen people ASK for critiques and idiots come up saying "that's hawt" and offer nothing, but yet a person who they know is sensitive about them, oh here comes the Art Establishment, who needs to say something about that piece and leaving a lot of other pieces ignored. What IS that about?


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## Niiku (Jan 18, 2008)

I have no idea what that's about. XD I find that amusing as well.

Anyhow, I do not claim to speak for any of the users who made "The hall of shame," I only speak for myself. Using my name, no anon here. I only support what they were TRYING to do, really. XP People need to learn to stfu and take critique for what it is, and stop whining. That's my point here. XD


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## Janglur (Jan 18, 2008)

Is it me, or did this whole thing decay into a gulag of Melrose Place or something?


To everyone, including staff, involved:


GROW UP ALREADY!


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## Gammu (Jan 19, 2008)

Doesn't the use of the word "shame" make it evident the intent is humiliation and ridicule, and expose the whole "honest critique" argument as little more than sophistry?


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## Aden (Jan 19, 2008)

Gammu said:
			
		

> Doesn't the use of the word "shame" make it evident the intent is humiliation and ridicule, and expose the whole "honest critique" argument as little more than sophistry?



I think of it as a more..."brutally honest critique" over everything. It's like slapping the drunk guy that's making an ass of himself. Is it the best method? No. Does it work? Remains to be seen. Is it entertaining? Hell yes.


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## 2ndVenus (Jan 19, 2008)

Niiku said:
			
		

> Arshes, I see what you're saying, but you further prove my point by defending these over-sensitive people. I mean come on, this Blue-dragon fellow was so ZOMFG DESTROYED by this whole thing that he had to have someone else comment for him. Pathetic.
> 
> News flash, folks! Life is painful. Finding out that you suck at art is not the end of the world. You must never have had actual struggle, conflict, or pain in your comfortable little existence. :[



News flash, he is a cartoon artist and doesnt need to improve. He was not ever given criticism on how to improve therefor it should not be claimed that he did not listen to criticism. He was sat drawing his comic very happily until blam, Hallofshame calls his artwork crap and this load of drama spawned from it starts insulting his name and mine defending him. Its not pathetic that i have to be a brick wall blocking this drama from him, i have the right to protect the one i love. So leave him alone.

We're sorry if we post something that isnt better than the Mona Lisa, but you can't seriously expect everyone to be nek0gami or Zen here, we all have our talents and our own styles and if we cant afford expensive photo editing software we'll try our best with what we got. Thats the life of a website that hosts artwork. Get used to it and stop trying to tell us what we are, because dammit were happy being what we are, and whatever you do to try and break our spirit we'll still be there with claw and fang.


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## fishy_hylian (Jan 19, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> News flash, he is a cartoon artist and doesnt need to improve.



I think this is EXACTLY the kind of attitude hallofshame was out to shame.

Well done for illustrating the point oh so clearly.


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## kayedarktail (Jan 19, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> News flash, he is a cartoon artist and doesnt need to improve.


Oh my god.

This is neither the time or the place to debate this, but _even cartoonists need to improve_.  Garfield's style has changed dramatically since the 70's, Bill Waterson (Calvin and Hobbes) can draw realistically (and sometimes did so in C&H).  Point is that a cartoon is a simplification of reality, and it makes it that much harder to change and improve your style when you don't know the basics -- even shading and color theory!

This of course ignores the argument that some cartoon styles are just plain ugly.

I suggest you get your "pet" to come here and talk about this "harassment" firsthand.  Your dedication is remarkable but Jesus!  You went out of your way to find my journal post and _assumed_ someone was talking about your "pet".  Let the guy speak for himself please.


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## Gammu (Jan 19, 2008)

Aden said:
			
		

> Gammu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Slapping a drunk guy in no way, shape or form could be considered "critique".  Even so, a more accurate analogy would be setting up a table in a local bar -- never buying any drinks -- with the sole intention of slapping obnoxious drunk guys.  _Then_ complaining that the proprietor is no fun when he tosses you out on your tail.

And if you want to go there, harsh critique is only "entertaining" if the person doing it is clever and literate enough to pull it off.  Making a list of "favorites" so that people can blurt "FAIL!!!111ONEONE" is even _more_ pathetic than whatever Sonic anal vore crayon scribble they happen to be "critiquing".


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## Ceceil Felias (Jan 19, 2008)

*People like -this- indeed...*

This thread, beyond all others I've ever seen, is such a remarkable display of the furry fandom's antics, that I desperately wish I had a facepalm.jpg of some kind uploaded to my site. I should ask someone for one of Ceceil facepalming, come to think of it.

2ndVenus, good job destroying your own, and even Blue's, rep with this. The hall of shame didn't even need to do anything -- you brought it about on your own. You did seem interesting when I saw your page a while ago, but _wow_. This display changes everything.

I've tossed in my two cents here. Carry on, folks.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 19, 2008)

A cartoonist if you ever read the Survival guide will tell you life drawing is important. 

That's not the problem. I don't understand why you're fixated on that guy when there are plenty of other people wanting to take critiques that are ignored? You're giving that guy more attention and completely ignoring those that want to actually improve and take critiques. So it shows that you guys are more self serving than actually trying to help someone improve. Pick and chose battles wisely. Even as much as I see how someone like Snapesnogger gets on ED because of her inability to take critiques, it becomes old hat when you constantly want to force a critique on someone who doesn't want to improve. 

That isn't saying that these people shouldn't learn to take critiques, but I honestly wonder why people waste a lot of time on those people when again, there are others you guys completely ignore. I mean look at the critique/feedback forum here. I see how quickly kaye is here to defend this hall of shame, but there are artists ACTUALLY ON THIS FORUM ASKING FOR CRITS and you want to waste your time here.

Self Serving.


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## Janglur (Jan 19, 2008)

Respect lost for Staff for overreacting and snuffing opinion.
Respect lost for 'victims' for emo, whining, superflouous statements, and ego-tripping.

Respect gained for HoS for exposing people who need a seriously huge dose of reality, and delivering a skin-thickening solution that is sorely needed by all people of every race, gender, ethnicity, and creed in this miserable country.


I state again.
GROW UP!


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## kayedarktail (Jan 19, 2008)

Not to mention that I, you know, have a community for critique that is fairly inactive because it's so new.  You'll be seeing ads for this on FA in about a week, and the people who want crits will come, and the people who don't aren't going to.  At least I'm making an effort to provide a place for critique.

This isn't even about hall of shame any more, so whatever.


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## draigfaol (Jan 20, 2008)

Will the admin please move this entire thread into the discussion forum?

Thank you!


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## Sharra (Jan 21, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> You are evil...just pure evil.



Apparently disagreeing with someones opinion makes one pure evil now?


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## Ape Shall Never Kill Ape (Jan 22, 2008)

Why are you guys so offended by bad art anyway

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you that people who perpetrate it need to be shunned or publicly humiliated

I mean it's not like your life depends on somebody's dragon anatomy in the next ever

you're having a shit-fit about bad art, not bad firefighting
or bad presidenting

or anything else that it matters if you suck at it

seriously you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill and it's annoying


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## kjorteo (Jan 22, 2008)

You want to talk shit fits and unnecessary mountains?  We weren't the ones who got so upset by the very existence of something like HoS as to take the time to start this thread, or to find private journals that may or may not even be talking about us personally, jumping in caps lock a-blazing, and getting aggressively defensive over someone who certainly wasn't even being talked about beforehand and for all the conclusive evidence I've actually seen in this thread, may or may not even exist.

Personally, I think bad art is hilarious, as is hyperoffended furry drama.  If you post terrible refrigerator art and then have a journal meltdown about it, odds are good that you have succeeded in entertaining me.  Therefore, I liked HoS because it was awesome, and I am disappointed in the decision to ban it because it spoils my fun.

Nowhere in that, though, will you find me saying anything along the lines of it being somehow important to me.


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## Aden (Jan 22, 2008)

*kjorteo*: Excellently put.

*Ape Shall Never Kill Ape*: Learn the meaning of the word "lulz". As *kjorteo* said, we don't _need_ thinks like the Hall of Shame. My existence isn't vindicated by poking fun at subpar art. However, it is damn entertaining. 



			
				Ape Shall Never Kill Ape said:
			
		

> you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill and it's annoying



Is this irony or hypocrisy? Little of both, methinks.


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## dave hyena (Jan 22, 2008)

draigfaol said:
			
		

> Will the admin please move this entire thread into the discussion forum?
> 
> Thank you!



Done.


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## Ape Shall Never Kill Ape (Jan 22, 2008)

Kojerto:  I didn't actually do any of that stuff, nor was I talking about it, but you are clearly in a mood about it so I'm just going to let you say whatever it takes to calm yourself down

Aden:  If it's for the lulz then it's not about critiquing bad artists and alerting them to their failing as Kaye tried to claim, which makes the whole reason why the admins shouldn't have banned it pretty invalid (i.e. it's either meant to troll or do a public service, since you can't really do both effectively unless you're squnq, and even then the only place where he does anything effectively is fantasy-land)

Also if the account was created for the lulz, why are you complaining about it being banned?   Getting banned for this kind of thing is something any competent troll would expect


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## The Red Alchemist (Jan 23, 2008)

http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2008/01/22/haters-you-are-so-boring/ -- Read this.  /thread.


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## WolfoxOkamichan (Jan 25, 2008)

People who know how to face critique won't make dramas.


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## Ape Shall Never Kill Ape (Jan 26, 2008)

WolfoxOkamichan said:
			
		

> People who know how to face critique won't make dramas.



You think that adding people with an account named "hall of shame" is a valid critique?


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## oCe (Jan 26, 2008)

I think the people calling foul because the account in question 'never actively harassed anybody' are missing the bigger picture. The very username was kind of an obvious tool for harassment. Can I blame the admins for removing an account if they deem the username 'offensive?' Nope. It's the same as if you created an account and named it [insert popular artist name here]-is-a-douche or PreyfarSucksBalls... y'think that's going to last?

As somebody else pointed out, there are already forums here where people go asking for critique. From what I've seen, most of these threads go unnoticed. Why is this? Energy would be better spent offering critique to those who _actually want it_, but it seems that the real appeal of this approach is that it pisses people off, not that it helps them to improve.

And finally, I'm sure there are tons of people out there with second accounts so they can "watch bad porn" without contaminating their regular upload stream. There should be no problem with doing so, as the nature of FA is such that pretty much -every- regular viewer needs an account, not -just- artists. Thing is, most people with an extra account are probably smart enough to name them things like puffywuffy or wlk77842. So instead of angry people with pitchforks showing up at their page, they'll just get a big pile of shouts reading "thnx 4 the watch". And there's no harm done on either end.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 26, 2008)

oCe said:
			
		

> As somebody else pointed out, there are already forums here where people go asking for critique. From what I've seen, most of these threads go unnoticed. Why is this? Energy would be better spent offering critique to those who _actually want it_, but it seems that the real appeal of this approach is that it pisses people off, not that it helps them to improve.



Kinda jumping on this, Remember YNA (still exists of course) but that was the whole purpose of the site and with the exception of fanart you could pretty much post the same illustrations and (writings?) on there as you could with FA. 

Critiques take a lot of effort. I'd do more but I get burned out being the same person doing most of them, giving redlines and tips. I also hate repeating the same advice when people ask for places to look for reference, and there's a sticky thread on that very forum for tutorials.

I need to work on my own works too. So it really does irk me that people use hallofshame as a thing about people needing to give critiques. When I doubt anyone who knew or had anything to do with that account ever bothered with the critique forum here. 

It's nice to read you're "Starting an account/group" but already people are asking for critiques here, on the forums. Hell there are PLENTY of places to get critiques online. Why not put some money where the mouth is?


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## Ape Shall Never Kill Ape (Jan 26, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> oCe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because contributing to existing threads doesn't put you in the position of power that starting your own group (that you moderate) would?


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 26, 2008)

No one would want to be in that group if you don't have a good track record of helping out to begin with. Position of power is kind of useless if people don't want to join. There will be a few at first for interest but after that I kinda doubt there will be real longterm investment in it regardless of who is in charge.


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## TakeWalker (Jan 27, 2008)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Critiques take a lot of effort. I'd do more but I get burned out being the same person doing most of them, giving redlines and tips. I also hate repeating the same advice when people ask for places to look for reference, and there's a sticky thread on that very forum for tutorials.



This. The fewer people doing critiques, the less those involved actually want to do them. Burnout is a serious issue with this. That's why I haven't read a damn thing over the last three weeks.


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## freelimesforsale (Jan 28, 2008)

schaudenfreudes,

helping the harris's and klebold's of the world unite since 1999.


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## astolpho (Feb 6, 2008)

haha what a retarded idea for a FA account.  have you guys ever noticed that the jokers that seem to like to create these point-and-laugh teen girl squad communities most never seem to have much going for them in the talent department themselves?

this is why fat people should not be allowed to use the internet.


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## Zentio (Feb 6, 2008)

astolpho said:
			
		

> haha what a retarded idea for a FA account.  have you guys ever noticed that the jokers that seem to like to create these point-and-laugh teen girl squad communities most never seem to have much going for them in the talent department themselves?
> 
> this is why fat people should not be allowed to use the internet.



:roll:


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## Touch My Badger (Feb 11, 2008)

2ndVenus said:
			
		

> News flash, he is a cartoon artist and doesnt need to improve.




No, he does. I've never seen his artwork and I can tell you he needs to improve. 

How can I make such a statement? Because once you stop striving to better your artistic abilities, you stop being an artist. EVERYONE needs to improve somehow. That's how I see it, anyway. Art is a reflection of life. It grows, it changes, it moves. Whether it be a quick little cartoon doodle or a painstakingly accurate mural, there is ALWAYS improvements to be made. If there's not, then the art, the artist's reflection of some aspect of life, grows cold, dead and stagnant. It dies.


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