# The Government's take on Capitalism and Free Market enterprise.



## Torrijos-sama (Aug 22, 2011)

Can be summed up by this one film:

[yt]1CCLHS-lt7Q[/yt]


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## Tycho (Aug 23, 2011)

...I'm thirsty.


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## moriko (Aug 23, 2011)

Edit: Thought I hit edit, apparently doublepost...


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## moriko (Aug 23, 2011)

Stupidity of some people... Hai guys I'm going to come borrow your public property for my own profit ignoring any possible rules/permit requirements set by the county/city/state. :V

Things like this: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/40C51.txt search "Sale of articles"


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 23, 2011)

So these people are trying to make a statement.

About permits?

What were they trying to prove?  I'm sorry it's very hard to tell behind the whole "Rebel Without a Cause" attitude overflowing in that video.


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## moriko (Aug 23, 2011)

To me it seems that they are complaining that they can't make use of public grounds to sell lemonade. Using selling lemonade as a popular past time of young kids to make money. If they gave the lemonade for free, without advertising towards any specific company they might not have had so many issues. At most being that they are part of a group, they would need a permit for giving away free lemonade for a non-profit non-company owned group. 

That's about all I can get based off the short search I did through the rules and unlawful activities portion for those grounds.


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## Tycho (Aug 23, 2011)

People being arrested for selling lemonade without a permit = fuck government regulation?

Kind of a big jump to make.


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 23, 2011)

Found from the National Mall & Memorial Parks, a division of the National Park Service which oversees the DC Mall:



			
				National Park Service said:
			
		

> Can I sell anything on park land?
> 
> Only the following may be sold on Park Service property:
> â€¢ Books
> ...



So even if they tried to get a permit they aren't allowed to sell beverages on park land.  That's not EVIL RESTRICTIVE GOVERNMENT.  It's just policy at the DC Mall.  Are we going to get uppity about how the EVIL TOTALITARIAN US GOVERNMENT prohibits people walking around the memorials with propane tanks as well?


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## Tycho (Aug 23, 2011)

Actually, the "no comestibles/beverages" thing makes sense.  If you wanted to hurt a lot of people, it'd be pretty easy to do it with tainted food or drink.

Besides, that's not even freshly-squeezed lemonade.  For shame.


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## dinosaurdammit (Aug 23, 2011)

This reminds me of that time at a fair this little girl set up a stand for a cause and a cop like tackled the stand and stomped on all her shit.


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## Browder (Aug 23, 2011)

...and? I don't get why I'm supposed to think the cops are bad guys. Apart from that one asshat at the end, they're enforcing a law that actually makes sense and behaving in a fairly reasonable manner (at least for cops).



dinosaurdammit said:


> This reminds me of that time at a fair this little girl set up a stand for a cause and a cop like tackled the stand and stomped on all her shit.



What was the cause if you don't mind me asking?


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## dinosaurdammit (Aug 23, 2011)

Browder said:


> ...and? I don't get why I'm supposed to think the cops are bad guys. Apart from that one asshat at the end, they're enforcing a law that actually makes sense and behaving in a fairly reasonable manner (at least for cops).
> 
> 
> 
> What was the cause if you don't mind me asking?



http://desperateexes.com/2011/07/16/douchebag-of-the-year-award-goes-to-chief-morningstar-congratulations/

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/07/georgia-cops-bust-10-year-olds-lemonade-stand/

for more stuff just google "cop ruins little girl's lemonade stand"


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## ArielMT (Aug 23, 2011)

Yup.  Ten-year-old and 13-year-old kids can't sell lemonade in their own front yards anymore without a business permit from the local government.


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## Corto (Aug 23, 2011)

Of course they can't. It's communism.


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## Torrijos-sama (Aug 23, 2011)

I had to make a thread title that would entice some of the forum-goers, you know?

I believe that the only thing these activists were trying to prove is that the law enforcement system in our country tends to be inflexible and unhumanistic, and would uphold the law without regard to whether or not their actions have reasonable justifications other than "TO PROTECT AMURRIKKKA FROM TURRRURRRISM" or "I make good money from doing it."

It's the fact that there are persons who are employed by the federal government that would still be willing to uphold the law regardless of how absurd, trivial, or vague the law is. The only bit of the video that really grinded my gears was after 3:49.


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## Corto (Aug 24, 2011)

You are completely right, JF. Those in charge of enforcing the law should only do so when they believe it's for the best. 



In case that was too subtle, I meant your point is dumb.


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## Corto (Aug 24, 2011)

Just to be clear, to make sure I'm not insulting your stupid, stupid argument because of a misunderstanding: your problem is when the officer says "your problem is not with the police, but with the lawmakers", right? Like, you would rather live in a world were laws were worth absolutely ass because the cops could choose to follow or apply them only if they want, right?


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## Term_the_Schmuck (Aug 24, 2011)

JesusFish said:


> I had to make a thread title that would entice some of the forum-goers, you know?
> 
> I believe that the only thing these activists were trying to prove is that the law enforcement system in our country tends to be inflexible and unhumanistic, and would uphold the law without regard to whether or not their actions have reasonable justifications other than "TO PROTECT AMURRIKKKA FROM TURRRURRRISM" or "I make good money from doing it."
> 
> It's the fact that there are persons who are employed by the federal government that would still be willing to uphold the law regardless of how absurd, trivial, or vague the law is. The only bit of the video that really grinded my gears was after 3:49.



Let's say you work for a marketing firm.  You have to make an ad campaign for cigarettes.  (never mind the ban on cigarette advertisements in most media forms).  You don't smoke, know the dangers of smoking, yet it's your responsibility as part of your job to make advertisements for people to smoke.  Do you just ignore your orders from your superiors to denounce smoking?  Is it worth the loss of your job in this economy?

How about something less serious like simply music preference?  You're promoting Rebecca Black who's releasing an album.  You have a well paying job at the promotions company you work for, but you personally hate Black's music.  Do you refuse to promote her at the risk of losing your job then because you believe she's bad for the music industry?

These people are PAID to follow and enforce the law.  To not do those things would be in direct violation of what they're paid to do and thus would put them at risk of being unemployed.  They aren't expected to do any more or less than what any other employee is expected to do, that being THEIR JOB.  And frankly, it's not THEIR JOB to make "reasonable justifications" for them doing what they're paid to do.  They are paid to enforce the laws of this country.

The one cop in the video is absolutely right.  If you have a problem with the law, take it up with the law makers.  Otherwise, the only thing you're doing is making more paperwork for the police when they process you for breaking the law to make your stupid argument about permits on land maintained by the National Park Service.


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## Corto (Aug 24, 2011)

It goes beyond analogies to working for the Friday girl. It's just as simple as the fact that what JF is suggesting goes against what the law is.

The only reason the law works is because it's something we are sure about. Something humanity made a deal about: We limit our own liberties, but at the same time ensure everyone must follow this code and hence reduce the risk we mean to ourselves. The whole point of the law is that you can be absolutely sure it is going to be applied, otherwise the faith in the law disappears and you can wave bye-bye to the idea of Rechstaat, or rule of law. How can you be so sure it's gonna be applied? You have this entity, cops in this case, that apply the law without discrimination, no matter how stupid the law may seem, it was created for a reason and it is not a cops job to decide whether he applies it or not. Cops are not judges. Cops are not lawmakers. And, beyond that, you don't want cops to be neither because it'll all go to shit faster than you can say "power abuse". 
You have a problem with the law? Complain to the senators, or judges, or whoever the fuck makes the law in your crazy anglosaxon system. But cops choosing whether they apply the law or not? Holy shit. I seriously can't overstate how incredibly idiotic this idea is. And as a law student I am almost offended by it.


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## Bliss (Aug 24, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Let's say you work for a marketing firm.  You have to make an ad campaign for cigarettes.  You don't smoke, know the dangers of smoking, yet it's your responsibility as part of your job to make advertisements for people to smoke.  Do you just ignore your orders from your superiors to denounce smoking?  Is it worth the loss of your job in this economy?


Yes. Yes.



> You're promoting Rebecca Black who's releasing an album.  You have a well paying job at the promotions company you work for, but you personally hate Black's music.  Do you refuse to promote her at the risk of losing your job then because you believe she's bad for the music industry?


Yes. :grin:


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## jcfynx (Aug 24, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> What were they trying to prove?  I'm sorry it's very hard to tell behind the whole "Rebel Without a Cause" attitude overflowing in that video.



It's so cute how offended they get.

The video description whinges that the cameraman was "assaulted" twice; "assaulted," in this case, means the police officer pushing the camera out of her face slightly.



ArielMT said:


> Yup.  Ten-year-old and 13-year-old kids can't sell lemonade in their own front yards anymore without a business permit from the local government.



Why should children be able to circumvent zoning laws? Zoning laws exist for good reason.


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## Ad Hoc (Aug 24, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> Yup.  Ten-year-old and 13-year-old kids can't sell lemonade in their own front yards anymore without a business permit from the local government.


They aren't selling it on their front yard. They're selling it in public land, right outside a government building. You can see that like, 15 seconds into the video.


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## ArielMT (Aug 24, 2011)

Ad Hoc said:


> They aren't selling it on their front yard. They're selling it in public land, right outside a government building. You can see that like, 15 seconds into the video.



I must be reading something very different, then.

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Cora...eral-Childrens-Lemonade-Stands-126592563.html
http://www.press-citizen.com/articl.../Coralville-dad-sour-over-temporary-ordinance
http://www.gadailynews.com/news/sav...-stand-for-not-having-a-business-license.html

Edit: Yup, I am.  Still, of all the things to crack down on, lemonade stands?  This really is insane.


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## Xenke (Aug 24, 2011)

ArielMT said:


> I must be reading something very different, then.
> 
> http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Cora...eral-Childrens-Lemonade-Stands-126592563.html
> http://www.press-citizen.com/articl.../Coralville-dad-sour-over-temporary-ordinance
> ...



It's not like all laws need to be enforced, nope.

Police need to crack down on -all- laws. The fact that people are actually enforcing zoning and stuff like that _isn't_ a bad thing.

I really don't understand why this is even an issue at all. If they had taken the time to talk to a local business and ask for their permission, they could have done this lemonade thing without any problems. But instead, they chose to use public land, and consequentially had to own up to that.

Edit: Added to the fact that it's pretty apparent that they knew what they were doing would land them into trouble. And it's not like the cops arrived and arrested them immediately, oh no, they had several warnings and chose to ignore and even mock those warnings.


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## CaptainCool (Aug 24, 2011)

while they do have a point, its absolutely absurd to get arrested for selling lemonade, its also absurd to make your point like this since the law clearly states that you arent allowed to sell stuff there...
if you wanna make a point then do it right.


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## Tycho (Aug 25, 2011)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Let's say you work for a marketing firm.  You have to make an ad campaign for cigarettes.  (never mind the ban on cigarette advertisements in most media forms).  You don't smoke, know the dangers of smoking, yet it's your responsibility as part of your job to make advertisements for people to smoke.  Do you just ignore your orders from your superiors to denounce smoking?  Is it worth the loss of your job in this economy?
> 
> How about something less serious like simply music preference?  You're promoting Rebecca Black who's releasing an album.  You have a well paying job at the promotions company you work for, but you personally hate Black's music.  Do you refuse to promote her at the risk of losing your job then because you believe she's bad for the music industry?
> 
> ...



This, like a hundred times.  (where'd my This button go? :c )

That cop who got chatty and made the "I'll lock anyone up for my money" comment needs a reprimand and a reminder to NOT say stupid shit in front of cameras. What a dumbass.


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## Rhodri (Aug 29, 2011)

Well, shit.

Okay, for a start, I don't believe that a single law has ever been changed by setting up a lemonade stand, filming it getting shut down by the police and posting that video on youtube. That is like starting a campaign where enthusiastic, but somewhat misguided, volunteers are sent out into the cities of America to blatantly smoke joints in public places in aid of legalising marijuana. It's not going to work, and you're probably going to wind up with a lot of fines and/or nights in a cell.

I can understand what they're trying to do here. Raising public awareness is a good way to get things changed. Most people probably wouldn't have realised that you were prohibited by law from setting up a small retail outlet, such as a lemonade stand, without a license. I didn't even know that until I saw this thread (buuuuut, then again, I do live in Ireland)

Unfortunately! The majority of the population of America tends to be somewhat apathetic towards things of this nature. This doesn't make them any different from any other country/nation/empire anywhere else. For people to try to effect a change, it has to directly affect them first, and even then most people will still do nothing. An example: There is a country called Zimbabwe. (No shit, really. I was born there, it's a real place.) Now, this country has had the singular misfortune of having one Robert Mugabe as it's president since gaining independence from the British empire in 1980. I don't know how much news coverage this has received around the globe, but that man and his government are almost entirely responsible for the implosion of a once quite prosperous country. The currency of Zimbabwe, the Zimbabwean Dollar (Z$) no longer exists. During a really quite staggering bout of hyper-inflation (with an estimated 100,000% inflation per annum towards the last dying cough), the managed to set a record for the largest denomination on a bank note. $100,000,000,000,000. Yes kiddies, that is 100 trillion dollars. That would have purchased you nearly 6 whole loaves of bread at it's time of minting. Of course, one can't speak of Zimbabwe without mentioning the violent land reclamation, blatant governmental abuse of power and rigging of elections. (Okay, not appropriate, but I think Mugabe has finally perfected democracy. One man, one vote. Mugabe is the man, and he gets the vote.)

But Rhodri, you may cry, what is the point of this undoubtedly heart-rending and yet somewhat meandering example. Well, the point is this. The people did pretty much f*ck-all. Some of us got out before it started getting really bad, some of us knuckled down and endured the shit and some of us even voted for the opposition party (MDC, as opposed to Mugabe's ZANU PF). But beyond that, and some protesting predominately in Harare, the capital city, nothing. Mugabe took all that people had worked so hard for, and destroyed it in a little under a decade. Currently, I'm waiting for him to die of old age, as that's the only way I can see him being removed from the presidency. 

So, to conclude. I think that while what these guys did in the video was a somewhat misguided attempt to raise public awareness, I really don't see it being any more useful than installing a snooze button on a fire alarm. 

Ahhh, one more point. Now is not the time to be focusing on vendor license's America, now is the time to take a VERY close look at your economy. I mean, peruse that sh*t. The recession that you are heading towards really is not humorous in any way. Unfortunately, this has been building since quite a while back (I was listening to economists predicting the current recession 2-3 years before it even started). There is pretty much nothing that can be done to avert it. (short of hitting the big, smiley 'reset economy now plz, kthxbai" button. Which sadly fails to exist anywhere outside of my very own microcosm. Though, we could wander into the viewer created reality theory at this point, but lets not let this tangent get out of hand.) So failing averting this crisis, what can be done? The answer is simple! 
Step 1: Get out of America. Don't care where. Stay there if you want, but that is not the course of action I would advise.
Step 2: Invest in gold and silver. Like, right now, before it gets even more expensive. Silver I bought last year has quite literally doubled in value in the last 13 months, and shall continue to see sharp growth. Gold, sadly, I cannot afford.
Step 3: Get settled somewhere where you believe you can relatively comfortably ride out a recession i.e. not in a city.
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit!

I'm still working on step four, but I will put more thought into it (possibly buying a metric-f*ck-tonne of dollars during hyper inflation and hoping like hell that the economy resurrect's during my lifetime). Anyway, sorry to get a little carried away with the addendum, just thought I should pass that one on.


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