# Gay Christians? (religious topic)



## xcliber (Nov 24, 2009)

Kinda been wondering for a while. Can someone be gay and still be Christian?

Simply put, I'm gay, but being surrounded by an entirely Christian family, if I had a choice, I would be straight. I don't care what anyone says, homosexuality is not a choice. I can't just say it's wrong and force myself to like women. It just doesn't work that way.

Personally, I'm agnostic. That said, even though I have difficulty in believing in God/Jesus, the thought being damned to an eternity in hell scares me.

So from a Christian standpoint, does being gay automatically earn you a one way ticket to hell?

Thoughts? Discussion?


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

yeah, right here. also agnostic, though i really stopped caring, if i love a guy, why should anyone else care if i dont?


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm a gay Christian.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about it, OP.

Besides, I hear Hell is awesome.

This is a problem I'm seeing everywhere these days: people worried more about what the "afterlife" has in store for them than what their REAL life has to offer.  You'd think Christianity was a death cult, the way they obsess over the afterlife and stress its importance over the here and now.


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## Kanin (Nov 24, 2009)

Well sense christianity doesn't actually say being gay is wrong, it's not impossible, or even hypocritical. A lot of people just think it does.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, OP.
> 
> Besides, I hear Hell is awesome.



me and my friends have a competion to see who will make it further into hell. who wants in?


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> me and my friends have a competion to see who will make it further into hell. who wants in?



I took a test once to see which level of circle of Hell a la "Dante's Inferno" I would find myself in.  7th Circle, City of Dis, representin' yo.


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 24, 2009)

The devil has a barbed penis.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

Ahkmill said:


> The devil has a barbed penis.



He also has hooves, a tail, and horns.

Dude's a furfag's wet dream.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I took a test once to see which level of circle of Hell a la "Dante's Inferno" I would find myself in.  7th Circle, City of Dis, representin' yo.



link?


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> He also has hooves, a tail, and horns.
> 
> Dude's a furfag's wet dream.


Mmmm, sex with the damned.


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I took a test once to see which level of circle of Hell a la "Dante's Inferno" I would find myself in.  7th Circle, City of Dis, representin' yo.



I'd like to see that test.

To be honest, the concept of heaven and hell is so critically flawed that I think nobody would be free of hell by any christian definition. And since there's nothing to back Christianity up, I'm agnostic. But I was a gay Christian once! For all of three seconds!


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> link?



http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

Also, oh snap, 6th level is Dis.  Took test again, got level 7.  8)

I got a higher score for Treachery (level nine) and Fraudulent/Malicious/Pandering (level eight) than I thought I deserved, though.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Dass said:


> I'd like to see that test.
> 
> To be honest, the concept of heaven and hell is so critically flawed that I think nobody would be free of hell by any christian definition. And since there's nothing to back Christianity up, I'm agnostic. But I was a gay Christian once! For all of three seconds!



i heard hell was just something put into the bible King James had made, didnt look into it. though i actually wouldnt be suprised to see Hitler in heaven, think of all that shit he survived.


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## Kanin (Nov 24, 2009)

No where in the bible does it say that being gay is wrong. Where it says being gay is a sin is a set of codes that also saying you may not eat pork, shellfish, or get haircuts; not to mention it's not accepted by most, if not all Christian churches. So in other words, Chistianity doesn't say that being gay is a sin, a lot of people just think it does. It also proves that people are idiots that try to back their ignorance on stuff they know nothing about.


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

Lord Kanin said:


> No where in the bible does it say that being gay is wrong. Where it says being gay is a sin is a set of codes that also saying you may not eat pork, shellfish, or get haircuts; not to mention it's not accepted by most, if not all Christian churches. So in other words, Chistianity doesn't say that being gay is a sin, a lot of people just think it does. It also proves that people are idiots that try to back their ignorance on stuff they know nothing about.



It does however say sodomy is a sin.

Also, oh shyte that test says I got a load of dirt on me.

I'm banished to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis

Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Low
Level 2 | Moderate
Level 3 | Very High
Level 4 | High
Level 5 | Very High
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Extreme
Level 7 | Moderate
Level 8- the Malebolge | High
Level 9 - Cocytus | High


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## xcliber (Nov 24, 2009)

Reason Christians take the afterlife so seriously is because it's where you will spend eternity after life on Earth. The hundred years one may spend in this world is nothing compared to the billions you will spend in heaven/hell.

...GODDAMNIT, I've just become that much more against the existence of a God by realizing just how unreasonalbly harsh eternal damnation is for something stupid done while on Earth.



Lord Kanin said:


> No where in the bible does it say that being gay is wrong. Where it says being gay is a sin is a set of codes that also saying you may not eat pork, shellfish, or get haircuts; not to mention it's not accepted by most, if not all Christian churches. So in other words, Chistianity doesn't say that being gay is a sin, a lot of people just think it does. It also proves that people are idiots that try to back their ignorance on stuff they know nothing about.


Thank you.
This was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Would you also happen to know where in the Bible I can find this "set of codes"?

Wait, what's the difference between sodamy and being gay?
(deffinition of sodamy?)


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## Kanin (Nov 24, 2009)

Dass said:


> It does however say sodomy is a sin.


 
Oh yeah, and straight couples never do anal or oral.


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## Scarborough (Nov 24, 2009)

Lord Kanin said:


> No where in the bible does it say that being gay is wrong. Where it says being gay is a sin is a set of codes that also saying you may not eat pork, shellfish, or get haircuts; not to mention it's not accepted by most, if not all Christian churches. So in other words, Chistianity doesn't say that being gay is a sin, a lot of people just think it does. It also proves that people are idiots that try to back their ignorance on stuff they know nothing about.



So I'm sorry. I'm not Christian, never "studied" the Bible, but even I know this one.

Leviticus 18:22.

Though then again, the shellfish thing is in the Bible and is completely stupid (not that Leviticus 18:22 isn't stupid; it is). I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. If God is going to send you to hell for being a homosexual, do you really want to be with God?


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Reason Christians take the afterlife so seriously is because it's where you will spend eternity after life on Earth. The hundred years one may spend in this world is nothing compared to the billions you will spend in heaven/hell.



You see, they live to die.  They're a death cult.

Sodomy's just "abnormal" sex.  Anything but consentual dick-vagoo missionary position crap.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
> 
> Also, oh snap, 6th level is Dis.  Took test again, got level 7.  8)
> 
> I got a higher score for Treachery (level nine) and Fraudulent/Malicious/Pandering (level eight) than I thought I deserved, though.



damn, only Level 5. though Level 1 didnt seem to bad. seemed a hell of a lot more like regualr life here.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 24, 2009)

Do yourself one better, drop religion all-together, and watch the fundamentalists froth at the mouth.

Also, Leviticus is refuted by Christians nowadays as incorrect, and outdated, right? Only the New Testament applies?

(How the OT remains in the bible is beyond me, if this is true)


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> damn, only Level 5. though Level 1 didnt seem to bad. seemed a hell of a lot more like regualr life here.



Yeah, Limbo's nice.

Unfortunately [yes], you can't get there if you've been baptized.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Nov 24, 2009)

> The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Fifth Level of Hell!
> 
> Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
> Level | Score
> ...



Lol, fifth circle, they just chose the first one that had me at very high. Kind of fits though, I am pretty vindictive.


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

Bowtoid_Obelisk said:


> Lol, fifth circle, they just chose the first one that had me at very high. Kind of fits though, I am pretty vindictive.



Enjoy your eternal Styx.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

Bowtoid_Obelisk said:


> Lol, fifth circle, they just chose the first one that had me at very high.



I think it uses a point score system actually, and though 5 and 7 were in "Very High" range, level 5 probably had a slightly higher point score.


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## Scarborough (Nov 24, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Also, Leviticus is refuted by Christians nowadays as incorrect, and outdated, right? Only the New Testament applies?



Who knows. It's a lot of picking and choosing.

And seriously, xcliber, if you're serious about this, I'd recommend A.J. Jacobs's The Year of Living Biblically. Even though I haven't read it. I watched him do a speech about it. It was interesting. Should bring you some insight.


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## south syde dobe (Nov 24, 2009)

lol that is what I call a *PARADOX*!!!


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Dass said:


> Yeah, Limbo's nice.
> 
> Unfortunately [yes], you can't get there if you've been baptized.



god damn it. it would it seems like a great place to vacation.


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> god damn it. it would it seems like a great place to vacation.



Yep.

Wait. Minos is past Limbo. What's to stop me from just refusing to budge from there?


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Nov 24, 2009)

Lord Kanin said:


> No where in the bible does it say that being gay is wrong. Where it says being gay is a sin is a set of codes that also saying you may not eat pork, shellfish, or get haircuts; not to mention it's not accepted by most, if not all Christian churches. So in other words, Chistianity doesn't say that being gay is a sin, a lot of people just think it does. It also proves that people are idiots that try to back their ignorance on stuff they know nothing about.



There was also the apostle Paul's assessment in the New Testament regarding homosexuality as shameful and wrong. I can't for life of me, remember where though, I'll have to pick up the book again and draw from the context of which he was writing that letter.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Dass said:


> Yep.
> 
> Wait. Minos is past Limbo. What's to stop me from just refusing to budge from there?



i know, i would figure it would be nice to stay there, maybe just learn a bunch of stuff. though i wouldnt mind seeing the 9th Level. like a tour of hell.


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## CannonFodder (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I took a test once to see which level of circle of Hell a la "Dante's Inferno" I would find myself in.  7th Circle, City of Dis, representin' yo.


The frack? I got purgatory?


Also to add to the conversation, although I'm not gay but a christian I do support them able to get marriages and such because of how it used to be and how even now they are being persecuted(aka gay rehabilitation camps, yes they do exist and it pisses me off how some are not only supported by churches but funded).
Also towards the drama right now about that topic I just shut up and keep out of because 1/5 of my church only pretends to be christian.

Another thing just so everyone knows alot of the jerks you think of when you mean Christians are non-practising people who selectively read the Bible.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

CannonFodder said:


> The frack? I got purgatory?



PUSSY


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

CannonFodder said:


> The frack? I got purgatory?



You probably said yes, you were planning to repent.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> PUSSY



just climb on up to heaven, i wanna sit here in my lava hot tub.


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> just climb on up to heaven, i wanna sit here in my lava hot tub.



Agreed, HEIL SATAN!


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Dass said:


> Agreed, HEIL SATAN!



well look-ee there, HEY HITLER, GET OVER HERE.


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## Conker (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't think God gives a shit who your preference of a humping partner is :3

There has to be more important shit for him to worry about than where you stick your dick -_-

*ASSUMING THERE IS A GOD FOR ALL YOU HEATHENS OUT THERE :V*


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## Azure (Nov 24, 2009)

Homosexuality is not a choice.  Also, I really don't understand why anybody would want to be a Christian. While you can repress your feelings, to do so is unhealthy in the long run.  Enjoy a fucked up adulthood. Also, Seventh Level of Hell for me.  I wanted to be pals with Satan .


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Homosexuality is not a choice.  Also, I really don't understand why anybody would want to be a Christian. While you can repress your feelings, to do so is unhealthy in the long run.  Enjoy a fucked up adulthood.



yeah, i just stopped caring, take the test though, i want to see what level you get.


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## Vrakanas (Nov 24, 2009)

The concept is strange and contradictory to me. I know how badly christians feel about gays.


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 24, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Homosexuality is not a choice.  Also, I really don't understand why anybody would want to be a Christian. While you can repress your feelings, to do so is unhealthy in the long run.  Enjoy a fucked up adulthood. Also, Seventh Level of Hell for me.  I wanted to be pals with Satan .


I don't choose to be a Christian for the real Christianity part. I just love Jesus. He's like Ghandi, except not bald.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Ahkmill said:


> I don't choose to be a Christian for the real Christianity part. I just love Jesus. He's like Ghandi, except not bald.



yeah, Jesus got Ghandi's hair. though i would laugh so hard, harder than in 2012 when the world dosent end, if Jesus were gay. i would probably shit myself laughing.


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> yeah, Jesus got Ghandi's hair. though i would laugh so hard, harder than in 2012 when the world dosent end, if Jesus were gay. i would probably shit myself laughing.


Some are suspicious that he might have been bi. I mean, come on, he was surrounded by twelve guys 24/7. HE WASHED THEIR FEET FOR FUCK'S SAKE.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Ahkmill said:


> Some are suspicious that he might have been bi. I mean, come on, he was surrounded by twelve guys 24/7. HE WASHED THEIR FEET FOR FUCK'S SAKE.



bi, ill only piss myself laughing, maybe hack up an organ.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Nov 24, 2009)

I never understood why people abandon their faith when they accept their sexuality. So you have to stop believing in a deity because that's what all the other gay people do? I guess it's really because when they come out to their religious parents, who were probably told it's a choice by their parents, they react negativity to their gay kid. So, *in my opinion*, I think it's more parent hate than religious hate. Also, they probably think if it wasn't for religion they would have never been a negativity reaction when they came out. 

Btw, I made *IMO *in *bold *so you all will know it's my *opinion*. Some of you completely overlook that part in some of my posts and think I'm stating something as fact.


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## xcliber (Nov 24, 2009)

Well I took that hell test, and (call my a pussy if you want) I'm only a level one.

Some of the questions were bullshit though. "Do you play violent video games?" WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!? Since when does causing mayhem in a fictional world make you less holy!? This, alone, invalidates that test.


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## Dass (Nov 24, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Well I took that hell test, and (call my a pussy if you want) I'm only a level one.
> 
> Some of the questions were bullshit though. "Do you play violent video games?" WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!? Since when does causing mayhem in a fictional world make you less holy!? This, alone, invalidates that test.



I think purgatory is based on weather or not you said yes to the repenting question.

Did you?


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## CannonFodder (Nov 24, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Well I took that hell test, and (call my a pussy if you want) I'm only a level one.


yeah well I got purgatory


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## xcliber (Nov 24, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> Who knows. It's a lot of picking and choosing.
> 
> And seriously, xcliber, if you're serious about this, I'd recommend A.J. Jacobs's The Year of Living Biblically. Even though I haven't read it. I watched him do a speech about it. It was interesting. Should bring you some insight.


This was actually very enlightening.
Thanks 

I have some more research to do, but I am much more at ease about it now.
Thanks everyone.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
> 
> Also, oh snap, 6th level is Dis.  Took test again, got level 7.  8)
> 
> I got a higher score for Treachery (level nine) and Fraudulent/Malicious/Pandering (level eight) than I thought I deserved, though.



lol  Got Level 6.  The questions were kinda dumb.

Um.  Yeah.  I guess you can be gay and Christian.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Shark_the_raptor said:


> lol  Got Level 6.  The questions were kinda dumb.
> 
> Um.  Yeah.  I guess you can be gay and Christian.



the violent video game one didnt make sense, ive seen priests blow people away in video games.


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## Tycho (Nov 24, 2009)

Shark_the_raptor said:


> lol  Got Level 6.  The questions were kinda dumb.



It IS an Internet quiz.  Just for shits and giggles.


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## Hir (Nov 24, 2009)

Tycho said:


> http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
> 
> Also, oh snap, 6th level is Dis.  Took test again, got level 7.  8)
> 
> I got a higher score for Treachery (level nine) and Fraudulent/Malicious/Pandering (level eight) than I thought I deserved, though.


The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very Low
Level 2 | High
Level 3 | Very High
Level 4 | High
Level 5 | Very High
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Very High
Level 7 | Very High
Level 8- the Malebolge | High
Level 9 - Cocytus | High

Level descriptions: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
Take the test: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

yaaaaaaaaaay~



EDIT: Decided to do as badly as possible and I still only got the 7th level.

The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Seventh Level of Hell!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very Low
Level 2 | Very High
Level 3 | Very High
Level 4 | Very High
Level 5 | Very High
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Very High
Level 7 | Very High
Level 8- the Malebolge | Very High
Level 9 - Cocytus | Very High

Level descriptions: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
Take the test: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv


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## Zrcalo (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm a gay christian.

I help out with the youth group and am a table groups leader. 
I wear a jacket with obscene patches with giant rainbows.

and a patch saying "these are my church clothes"


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## Zrcalo (Nov 24, 2009)

"Do you eat at restaurants several times a week?"

wtf?

"The sweet light no longer strikes against your eyes. Your shade has been banished to... the Seventh Level of Hell!"

lol.

Purgatory	 Repenting Believers	Moderate
Level 1 - Limbo	 Virtuous Non-Believers	Moderate
Level 2	 Lustful	Low
Level 3	 Gluttonous	Low
Level 4	 Prodigal and Avaricious	Low
Level 5	 Wrathful and Gloomy	Low
Level 6 - The City of Dis	 Heretics	Low
Level 7	 Violent	Moderate
Level 8- the Malebolge	 Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers	Moderate
Level 9 - Cocytus	 Treacherous	Very Low


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## Shark_the_raptor (Nov 24, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> "Do you eat at restaurants several times a week?



Yeah.  That one had me scratching my head going "What does that have to do with going to hell?".


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## Scribbles_Ayashi (Nov 24, 2009)

Absolutely not. Only the hardcore christians will tell you that homosexuality is a sin, and they interpret the bible way too literally. I actually watched a documentary (made by a lesbian christian couple) on how many homosexual christians deal with everyday life (I think it's called "God and Gays", you should watch it sometime). Just be a good, decent human being, and you'll be just fine (and no, Im not christian, Im also agnostic).


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## Ratte (Nov 24, 2009)

The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Seventh Level of Hell!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Moderate
Level 2 | Low
Level 3 | High
Level 4 | Very Low
Level 5 | Moderate
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Low
Level 7 | Very High
Level 8- the Malebolge | High
Level 9 - Cocytus | High

lol

Purgatory - Repenting Believers - Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo - Virtuous Non-Believers - Moderate
Level 2 - Lustful - Low
Level 3 - Gluttonous - High
Level 4 - Prodigal and Avaricious - Very Low
Level 5 - Wrathful and Gloomy - Moderate
Level 6 - The City of Dis - Heretics - Low
Level 7 - Violent - Very High
Level 8 - the Malebolge - Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers - High
Level 9 - Cocytus - Treacherous - High

Guise I'm a fat and violent person.


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## Lukar (Nov 24, 2009)

Agnostic.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Ratte said:


> The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Seventh Level of Hell!
> 
> Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
> Level | Score
> ...



aww, we arent in the same level, though i get to tear people apart with my teeth in my level, apperntly there is a level in hell for furries. i am not suprised, just dissapointed, we couldnt be higher on the level there.


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## Ratte (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> aww, we arent in the same level, though i get to tear people apart with my teeth in my level, apperntly there is a level in hell for furries. i am not suprised, just dissapointed, we couldnt be higher on the level there.



What level are you on?


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Ratte said:


> What level are you on?



level 5, probably just because im a virgin, and donated loose change i was tired of having in my pockets.


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## Ratte (Nov 24, 2009)

blackfuredfox said:


> level 5, probably just because im a virgin, and donated loose change i was tired of having in my pockets.



I am too.

What the fuck

THIS QUIZ IS SEXIST |:C


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## Captain Spyro (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm a heterosexual Christian myself, and really...I don't see why you CAN'T be a gay Christian. A lot of it depends on how one interprets Scripture.


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## blackfuredfox (Nov 24, 2009)

Ratte said:


> I am too.
> 
> What the fuck
> 
> THIS QUIZ IS SEXIST |:C



no, its because we are furries, COME ON, LETS BURN CHURCHES AND IMPALE FUNDIES, THAT WILL GET US HIGHER ON THE LIST. :V


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## Beta Link (Nov 24, 2009)

Woohoo, I got Level 1... Which is weird, considering it says that people there are non-believers, even though when it asked me if I believed in God, I said yes. Stupid test is stupid.

And yeah, you can be gay and Christian at the same time.


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## Kryn (Nov 25, 2009)

Yes you can be gay and a Christian. It's very simple, overtime many parts of Christianity that used to be taken literally by everyone are now considered obsolete and irrelevant. Things like wearing clothing made of two fabrics, or selling your daughter as a slave, or playing football (touching the dead skin of a pig), or even eating shrimp. I guarantee you in a few decades homosexuality will enter into this same category. And christians will continue to be delusional and simply believe in whatever their pastor tells them.

Hmm, apparently I'm going to be banished to the 6th level of hell. Awesome, I'm glad I don't believe in this crap


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## Jashwa (Nov 25, 2009)

From a retarded standpoint, being gay earns you a one way ticket to Hell.  From a Christian standpoint, God loves everyone and will forgive you for it (if he even disapproves in the first place).

If God can forgive murderers, I'm sure he wouldn't send people to Hell for liking it in the pooper.

Also:

The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Third Level of Hell!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very Low
Level 2 | High
Level 3 | Very High
Level 4 | High
Level 5 | Moderate
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Low
Level 7 | Moderate
Level 8- the Malebolge | High
Level 9 - Cocytus | Low

Level descriptions: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
Take the test: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv


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## Mayfurr (Nov 25, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> I never understood why people abandon their faith when they accept their sexuality. *So you have to stop believing in a deity because that's what all the other gay people do? *



So realising that your "faith" says that you're on a one way express train to HELL just because of who you actually ARE regardless of what you DO has _nothing_ to do with it?

*facepalm*


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## Mayfurr (Nov 25, 2009)

Oh, and it seems I'm also off to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis. Wow, this train is getting crowded...

Can I have a First Class ticket please?


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 25, 2009)

The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Seventh Level of Hell!
*The wretched King Minos has decided your fate.  His tale wraps around his body 7 times.*



Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very Low
Level 2 | Very High
Level 3 | High
Level 4 | High
Level 5 | Very High
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Very High
Level 7 | Very High
Level 8- the Malebolge | Very High
Level 9 - Cocytus | Very High

Level descriptions: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
Take the test: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Nov 25, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> So realising that your "faith" says that you're on a one way express train to HELL just because of who you actually ARE regardless of what you DO has _nothing_ to do with it?
> 
> *facepalm*


 

So, like, you can't follow something, like a faith, because some of the followers think negatively of you? So you have to switch sides? Says who? Some guy down south or you?

Btw, you fail at using facepalm. You use it too much. Stop being a newfag. In other words, use you memes wisely. What are you, those failfags that protest outside of scientology while wearing an EFG masks? Oh, man, you could be NZFG!


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

I retook the test and gave the most horrible satanic answers possible and couldn't make it to level 9. What the hell do you have to do to room with Satan? :V

Test is too forgiving.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Kinda been wondering for a while. Can someone be gay and still be Christian?
> 
> Simply put, I'm gay, but being surrounded by an entirely Christian family, if I had a choice, I would be straight. I don't care what anyone says, homosexuality is not a choice. I can't just say it's wrong and force myself to like women. It just doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...



Short answer is, no. Would it be fair to send someone to hell because of something they have no choice over? Even if being gay "was " deemed a mental disorder (not saying it is though) Would it be fair for god to still send a gay man to hell? No, it wouldn't. 

Personally I don't think god gives two shits about what we do/like down here so long as it does not cause un necessary harm to someone, such as murder, rape etc.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Not neccesarily so. Aparently, God forgives murderers and rapists too. From what I understand, the only truly unforgivable sin is to call God evil.

The problem is that while homosexuality can be forgiven, I can't stop myself from continuing to be gay after recieving forgiveness. I will inevitably sin again.

The only way to be forever forgiven for this sin is to be forgiven and then die before you have a chance to commit the sin again. You have to be on your death bed or something, and even then, you have to be truly repentful/regretful for the sin. You can't just say "I'm sorry" without truly meaning it from the bottom of your soul, on your deathbed and expect to be let into heaven.

It would be like trying to cheat your way into heaven. Like committing suicide by lethal injection or by cutting yourself, and then turning around and asking for forgiveness while your dying.

So basically what I'm getting at, is that if He can let you slide on things like wearing mixed fabrics or eating shellfish or refraining from stoning adulterers, then can he also let homosexuality slide?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Not neccesarily so. Aparently, God forgives murderers and rapists too. From what I understand, the only truly unforgivable sin is to call God evil.
> 
> The problem is that while homosexuality can be forgiven, I can't stop myself from continuing to be gay after recieving forgiveness. I will inevitably sin again.
> 
> ...




Well if he is able to forgive murderers and rapists then I don't see why being gay is any different, no one gets physicaly hurt being gay, emotionally maybe. I actually heard if you commit suicide you get stuck in "limbo"


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## Dass (Nov 25, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Well if he is able to forgive murderers and rapists then I don't see why being gay is any different, no one gets physicaly hurt being gay, emotionally maybe. I actually heard if you commit suicide you get stuck in "limbo"



Actually I think hell has  section for those guilty of committing violent acts against themselves.

You're damned to forever be a tree, for some reason.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Well if he is able to forgive murderers and rapists then I don't see why being gay is any different, no one gets physicaly hurt being gay, emotionally maybe. I actually heard if you commit suicide you get stuck in "limbo"


 But only if those people are truly regretful/repentful, and they never commit that sin again.


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## MaskedJackal (Nov 25, 2009)

Tycho said:


> http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
> 
> Also, oh snap, 6th level is Dis.  Took test again, got level 7.  8)
> 
> I got a higher score for Treachery (level nine) and Fraudulent/Malicious/Pandering (level eight) than I thought I deserved, though.



Haha, I got Purgatory. =3

As a sort of a non-denominational Christian, the only advice I can give to the OP is to read the Bible and determine for yourself. I really don't have much else to say other than that.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> But only if those people are truly regretful/repentful, and they never commit that sin again.



Erm...if the sin is "suicide" they ain't likely to commit that sin again are they. >.> You can but die once, unless someone manages to revive you. To be perfectly honest I don't believe god is as tough about forgivness as religion makes out he is.


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Not neccesarily so. Aparently, God forgives murderers and rapists too. From what I understand, the only truly unforgivable sin is to call God evil.
> 
> The problem is that while homosexuality can be forgiven, I can't stop myself from continuing to be gay after recieving forgiveness. I will inevitably sin again.
> 
> ...


The thing is, homosexuality ISN'T a sin. It's a natural thing. God doesn't ask black people to repent for being black, does he? Of course not. The only area in the Bible that speaks of it as a sin is Leviticus, which was written so long ago and is sort of demolished by the New Testament.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Ahkmill said:


> The thing is, homosexuality ISN'T a sin. It's a natural thing. God doesn't ask black people to repent for being black, does he? Of course not. The only area in the Bible that speaks of it as a sin is Leviticus, which was written so long ago and is sort of demolished by the New Testament.


 That's because being black is not and never has been a sin. I never recall blacks ever being called unholy just because they were black.

Gays have never been accepted, until recent times.

Does anybody know where I can find a list of all the passages in the bible that reference homosexuality in any and all context?


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> That's because being black is not and never has been a sin. I never recall blacks ever being called unholy just because they were black.
> 
> Gays have never been accepted, until recent times.
> 
> Does anybody know where I can find a list of all the passages in the bible that reference homosexuality in any and all context?



Google it.

The fact the bible has been re-written and things in it have changed over the years, leads me to doubt it even more.


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## Lucy Bones (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> That's because being black is not and never has been a sin. I never recall blacks ever being called unholy just because they were black.
> 
> Gays have never been accepted, until recent times.
> 
> Does anybody know where I can find a list of all the passages in the bible that reference homosexuality in any and all context?


Blacks had been referred to as a lower race by white people until the 1980's. Most of the racists whites said they had the God-given right to oppress the black people.

Also, it says nowhere in the Bible that a man cannot love another man, or a woman cannot love another woman. It only speaks out against gay sex in Leviticus, not gays in general.


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## Mayfurr (Nov 25, 2009)

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> So, like, you can't follow something, like a faith, because some of the followers think negatively of you? So you have to switch sides?



You don't get it, do you. If the _doctrine of the faith_ rejects YOU - then there's hardly much incentive to stick around with a bunch of people that basically _hate your guts_, is there?

But oh yeah, I forgot. You think being gay or the like is a CHOICE, and that such people basically decide to be gay _for the sole purpose of pissing off society in general and some dude in the sky in particular._ Because it allows you to smugly believe that the fault isn't of your religion, but of the nasty horrible rebellious sinners whom you despise. Heaven forbid that your "faith" might be like, you know, WRONG.

If you believe *that*, there's a bridge in Sydney that you may be interested in buying...


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> You don't get it, do you. If the _doctrine of the faith_ rejects YOU - then there's hardly much incentive to stick around with a bunch of people that basically _hate your guts_, is there?
> 
> But oh yeah, I forgot. You think being gay or the like is a CHOICE, and that such people basically decide to be gay _for the sole purpose of pissing off society in general and some dude in the sky in particular._ Because it allows you to smugly believe that the fault isn't of your religion, but of the nasty horrible rebellious sinners whom you despise. Heaven forbid that your "faith" might be like, you know, WRONG.
> 
> If you believe *that*, there's a bridge in Sydney that you may be interested in buying...



I hate when people think being gay is a choice, because unfortunately people can not choose their sexuality.


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

I am gay and Christian. I don't feel that God loves us any less or will banish us to Hell because we are gay. No one but God could tell us who is or is not going to Hell. If you are worried about what the Bible says just think about it for a moment it was written by man not God and  over the thousands of years it has been bound to have been rewritten several times to fit the view of that generation. Also I believe that most of it is myth anyway. Take the book of Genesis it sates that God created everything but not specifically how. Now on the other hand we have scientific proof of the Big Bang Theory, and evolution, my view is that God caused both to happen. With the story of Moses and the Jews being enslaved in Egypt there has never been any records found in Egypt to support this story. My advice is to figure out what you believe in doses God love you no matter what or not and if you can be gay and Christian or not.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> I am gay and Christian. I don't feel that God loves us any less or will banish us to Hell because we are gay. No one but God could tell us who is or is not going to Hell. If you are worried about what the Bible says just think about it for a moment it was written by man not God and  over the thousands of years it has been bound to have been rewritten several times to fit the view of that generation. Also I believe that most of it is myth anyway. Take the book of Genesis it sates that God created everything but not specifically how. Now on the other hand we have *scientific proof of the Big Bang Theory,* and evolution, my view is that God caused both to happen. With the story of Moses and the Jews being enslaved in Egypt there has never been any records found in Egypt to support this story. My advice is to figure out what you believe in doses God love you no matter what or not and if you can be gay and Christian or not.



If we had "scientific PROOF it would not be called a "theory"


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## Tycho (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> But only if those people are truly regretful/repentful, and they never commit that sin again.



Kinda hard to commit suicide twice.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Kinda hard to commit suicide twice.


 I was talking about murder and rape and other sins along those lines.

And there are plenty of cases where suicide attempts have failed.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 25, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> If we had "scientific PROOF it would not be called a "theory"




Well, there are scientific theories - That model and explain a group of proven facts (which Evolution, Gravity, and the Big Bang fall under, amongst many other things)

And just plain theories, which are on par with, and can be used rather interchangeably with hypothesis, guesses, and such - Facts not necessary. 

It's a bitch, that they're the same word - Or at least used as the same word, but require a lot of context to be understood correctly. Also, very often confused, and misused (often purposefully) by...a certain group of people.


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## Tycho (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> I was talking about murder and rape and other sins along those lines.



Well, OK.  Got me there.



xcliber said:


> And there are plenty of cases where suicide attempts have failed.



But if the attempt failed, does it still really count as suicide for the purposes of the Limbo waiting list?


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Well, there are scientific theories - That model and explain a group of proven facts (which Evolution, Gravity, and the Big Bang fall under, amongst many other things)
> 
> And just plain theories, which are on par with, and can be used rather interchangeably with hypothesis, guesses, and such - Facts not necessary.
> 
> It's a bitch, that they're the same word - Or at least used as the same word, but require a lot of context to be understood correctly. Also, very often confused, and misused (often purposefully) by...a certain group of people.


 
I've never heard of the "Gravity Theory" :V. Gravity is already a proven fact, so it's not a theory. The evolution and Big Bang theories are just that, "theories". While there is evidence to suggest that they are true, they still haven't been "Proven".

Edit: definition of "theory". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
If I interpret that correctly, a theory is just a set of educated guesses put together to explain something. A theory becomes fact when all hypothesees within the theory are scientifically proven.


Tycho said:


> But if the attempt failed, does it still really count as suicide for the purposes of the Limbo waiting list?


It counts as another sin which can be forgiven.


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

Looks like I need to read what I write better. If we look at everything like that then we are in luck no one has to worry about Hell or God because we can not prove in his existence religion is just what we chooses to believe in.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> I've never heard of the "Gravity Theory" :V. Gravity is already a proven fact, so it's not a theory. The evolution and Big Bang theories are just that, "theories". While there is evidence to suggest that they are true, they still haven't been "Proven".
> 
> There is only one definition of "theory". Edit: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
> If I interpret that correctly, a theory is just a set of educated guesses put together to explain something.
> ...



Uh, no. There is more than just one. Have you heard of the Einsteins theory of relativity? How about Newtons Law of Universal Gravitation? Do you think Gravity was merely accepted, without ever being theorized? Gravity is also, a set of facts, not just one fact. 

The theory of relativity is Einsteins theory of gravity, physics, and the like, which exceeded Newtons Law; we now use (scientific) "Theories" in a similar sense that we used to use scientific "laws". 

Try this dictionary.com one:

"*theÂ·oÂ·ry* 

   (thÄ“'É™-rÄ“, thÃ®r'Ä“)  

 
n.    _pl._ *theÂ·oÂ·ries*


A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
 7. guess or conjecture


"Synonyms:
1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. *A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena*: the theory of relativity."

*theory* 

*In science*, an explanation or model that covers a substantial group of occurrences in nature and has been confirmed by a substantial number of experiments and observations. _*A theory is more general and better verified than a hypothesis. (See Big Bang theory, evolution, and relativity.)*_

I used dictionary.com, because it expands far greater on most words, and goes beyond just a definition. 

Evolution, like gravity, is a proven fact, but we still use the theory of evolution to explain how things evolve. (I told you it gets difficult to understand)

Also, can't go wrong with Wiki 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_gravity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_theory_of_relativity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation


I'm, obviously, not a scientist, and can't exactly debate the theories themselves, but English is my game, and I love philosophy  So the actual _words_ I can play with, but not the theories themselves.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

I love how this went from a religious debate to a science debate XD


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

TL;DR most of it.

All I said was that the word "theory", no matter how widely accepted one is, still does not equal "fact".

Note that Creationism is a "theory" as well, and is just as widely accepted by religious people as Evolution is by scientists. In both cases, neither has been fully proven or disproven. Hence they are theories and not facts.

I didn't intend to make this a science or english debate.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> TL;DR most of it.
> 
> All I said was that the word "theory", no matter how widely accepted one is, still does not equal "fact".
> 
> ...



There is no point in making a thread to debate in, if all you are going to do is brush over fact and see things from your own point of view, it defies the object of starting a discussion. All I have seen you do, or at least it seems to me that you skip past every fact shown to you so far.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> I didn't intend to make this a science or english debate.


 
... again, I had no intention of making this into a debate.


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## Scarborough (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> TL;DR most of it.
> 
> All I said was that the word "theory", no matter how widely accepted one is, still does not equal "fact".
> 
> ...



Creationism is not a scientific theory because it cannot be tested, observed, etc.

Gravitation is a scientific theory because it's testable, based off of observations, and has quantifiable properties.

It's becoming an English debate because it's kind of important which words you choose when you're talking about this kind of stuff.


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

(Haven't read through thread)

If you can't be Christian for being gay (how "God made you" in the first place, btw...) then women who pray with their hair uncovered can't be Christian, nor people who work on Sunday...it goes on and on.

People willingly ignore massive parts of the Bible (Old AND New Testaments) and assume they're Christian, so they can either become fundamentalist nutters or _shut the fuck up_ telling gay people they aren't allowed in their club.


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## Bambi (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Kinda been wondering for a while. Can someone be gay and still be Christian?
> 
> Simply put, I'm gay, but being surrounded by an entirely Christian family, if I had a choice, I would be straight. I don't care what anyone says, homosexuality is not a choice. I can't just say it's wrong and force myself to like women. It just doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...


*Yes, technically, because homosexuality is an abomination.*

However don't take the religious text to heart, as most of the volumes and sections in the old testament are considered dated and outright ignored. On the other hand, I'm sorry you feel guilty about your sexuality, but this isn't the sexualities problem. :/

Bigotry FTW.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> Creationism is not a scientific theory because it cannot be tested, observed, etc.
> 
> Gravitation is a scientific theory because it's testable, based off of observations, and has quantifiable properties.
> 
> It's becoming an English debate because it's kind of important which words you choose when you're talking about this kind of stuff.


 
Yeah, Ok. You guys win the debate. >.> (I really just don't care enough to debate it.)



Harebelle said:


> (Haven't read through thread)
> 
> If you can't be Christian for being gay (how "God made you" in the first place, btw...) then women who pray with their hair uncovered can't be Christian, nor people who work on Sunday...it goes on and on.



But some will argue that being gay, while still not a choice, is the result of your upbringing and the events that influenced your life. How do I know that God is really the one who made me gay?

...I'm missed the point, didn't I?


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

Bambi said:


> However don't take the religious text to heart, as most of the volumes and sections in the old testament are considered dated and outright ignored.



I honestly don't get why more people aren't bothered that the word of/inspired by _God_ can become outdated (or appear so crazy you can look back and just think he must've been trying mushrooms that day)


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## Ratte (Nov 25, 2009)

Your mom is an abomination.


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

The only way you will know it God is the one that made you gay is if you ever meet him, and I want to state again the Bible was written by man not God and most of it is most likely myth not fact.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Yeah, Ok. You guys win the debate. >.> (I really just don't care enough to debate it.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People can't tell if being gay was influenced from things that happened to them in the past, I mean what "could" possibly influence someone to "turn" gay? I personally believe a gay man/woman is part of who they are, not through choice, in most cases anyway, cause I have remembered that I have heard of girls turning lesbian due to certain "incidents" that happened to them.

Didn't some scientists say at one point being gay could be a genetic thing or something? I can't remember now.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> I honestly don't get why more people aren't bothered that the word of/inspired by _God_ can become outdated (or appear so crazy you can look back and just think he must've been trying mushrooms that day)


 Which is all the more reason that I'm agnostic.


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> But some will argue that being gay, while still not a choice, is the result of your upbringing and the events that influenced your life. How do I know that God is really the one who made me gay?
> 
> ...I'm missed the point, didn't I?



It's still not your fault then, and if God can't understand that then he isn't all-knowing and if he will _punish you forever _regardless then he's a massive dick.



Ratte said:


> Your mom is an abomination.



*single tear*

Your avatar is all "RARGH! SUPER CERAL ARTWORK!" and awesome.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> The only way you will know it God is the one that made you gay is if you ever meet him, and I want to state again the Bible was written by man not God and most of it is most likely myth not fact.



This is why I do not entirely believe the Bible. It was probably written by the guy who founded Christianity anyway.


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## Tycho (Nov 25, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> This is why I do not entirely believe the Bible. It was probably written by the guy who founded Christianity anyway.



Wasn't that supposed to be Jesus?

Jesus sure as fuck didn't write that thing.


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## Ratte (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> *single tear*
> 
> Your avatar is all "RARGH! SUPER CERAL ARTWORK!" and awesome.



:3 <3


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

The Catholic church most likely changed and added what they wanted to it during the middle ages.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> *It's still not your fault then, and if God can't understand that then he isn't all-knowing and if he will punish you forever regardless then he's a massive dick.*



Exactly, I couldn't agree more with this. I find murder and rape a far greater sin than being gay, and if god can forgive those, then he can forgive someone for being gay.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 25, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Wasn't that supposed to be Jesus?
> 
> Jesus sure as fuck didn't write that thing.



But wasn't god worshiped before Jesus was allegedly born?


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

Yes that would be the Old Testament. It was and still is called Judaism, and Christianity was founded after the death of Christ.


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## Scarborough (Nov 25, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> People can't tell if being gay was influenced from things that happened to them in the past, I mean what "could" possibly influence someone to "turn" gay? I personally believe a gay man/woman is part of who they are, not through choice, in most cases anyway, cause I have remembered that I have heard of girls turning lesbian due to certain "incidents" that happened to them.
> 
> Didn't some scientists say at one point being gay could be a genetic thing or something? I can't remember now.



Okay, I'm going to have to call you out on this.

Being attracted to people of the same sex might be inherent, but unless the individual has some kind of mental disorder, acting on those impulses is a choice.


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## Tycho (Nov 25, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> But wasn't god worshiped before Jesus was allegedly born?



Yeah, but Christianity = Jesus.  I mean, the Jews and the Muslims believe in God but don't consider Jesus anything more than a person of mild interest.  Christianity revolves heavily around the teachings of Jesus (or it's supposed to, anyway).  Before Jesus, Christianity was not a definite religion separate from Judaism, really.


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## 2-Tailed Taymon (Nov 25, 2009)

Agnostic here as well. Christianity frankly pisses me off to no end. I do fear Satan & Hell, but I'd rather go there than be forced to worship some shit I really don't agree with. I pray & believe as I please, but not to any Christian stuff.


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> Being attracted to people of the same sex might be inherent, but unless the individual has some kind of mental disorder, acting on those impulses is a choice.



You *are *just playing Devil's Advocate here, right?


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## Scarborough (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> You *are *just playing Devil's Advocate here, right?



Yes.

I am gay. I just have a disgusting obsession with some terminology.


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

Christianity is a religion full of contradictions. Love everyone, but if someone is different then they are bound for hell.


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> Yes.
> 
> I am gay. I just have a disgusting obsession with some terminology.



Okie dokie! Carry on.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> TL;DR most of it.
> 
> All I said was that the word "theory", no matter how widely accepted one is, still does not equal "fact".
> 
> ...



My intentions weren't to 'win' a debate, and I had no intentions of even starting a debate. I was trying to educate you, on what you obviously did not know, and really SHOULD know, because it's not only the explanations on how you got here, but the explanations on how you stay here too. 

*Shrugs* But I'm not going to cram knowledge down your throat.


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> *Shrugs* But I'm not going to *cram* knowledge *down your throat*.



In b4 lolgaythread joke.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> In b4 lolgaythread joke.



Dammit! I was trying to be subtle.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

Why do I only arrive at these threads after I've missed the fun?


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Why do I only arrive at these threads after I've missed the fun?



*shrug*
Is that a Phoenix Wright character?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> *shrug*
> Is that a Phoenix Wright character?


Bible Black, actually ^_^;

...I first heard of Bible Black because my best friend's a big fan. And she's Christian and bisexual, so it's actually at least halfway on-topic


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## Tewin Follow (Nov 25, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Bible Black, actually ^_^;
> 
> ...I first heard of Bible Black because my best friend's a big fan. And she's Christian and bisexual, so it's actually at least halfway on-topic



Thanks.

*checks Wiki article*
... Ok, then. I'll stick to mah Phoenix Wright, I think.


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## Scarborough (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> Thanks.
> 
> *checks Wiki article*
> ... Ok, then. I'll stick to mah Phoenix Wright, I think.



I had the same reaction. [/relevant]


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> My intentions weren't to 'win' a debate, and I had no intentions of even starting a debate. I was trying to educate you, on what you obviously did not know, and really SHOULD know, because it's not only the explanations on how you got here, but the explanations on how you stay here too.
> 
> *Shrugs* But I'm not going to cram knowledge down your throat.



Sorry. It just seemed more like you were simply arguing. I do understand what you are saying though.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

Harebelle said:


> Thanks.
> 
> *checks Wiki article*
> ... Ok, then. I'll stick to mah Phoenix Wright, I think.


You do that :V



Scarborough said:


> I had the same reaction. [/relevant]


That's nice.


----------



## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

Xcliber I was wondering if any of this has helped answer your question?


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> Xcliber I was wondering if any of this has helped answer your question?



My question remains unanswered, but it has helped ease my mind a quite a bit.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

Is your question still the same as it was in the first post?


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

I don't think anyone could give the correct answer to this question but God and he never talks to me.


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## Scarborough (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm not sure how relevant you will find this site (Churchouting.org). While I disagree with their methods, it's interesting reading material.

And they're Catholic, not Christian. Don't know how important the difference is to you.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Is your question still the same as it was in the first post?



Yeah. Why?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> Yeah. Why?


Well, I have an answer, sort of.

From a purely Biblical standpoint, you're going to Hell for a lot of things before they even get to the gay part. From a less-Fundamentalist stance, though, unless you've done a great number of wrongs to people without trying to make up for them, you probably aren't.

I'd say you aren't, but keep in mind that I don't know you.


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

It sounds interesting I will have to read more on them latter.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Scarborough said:


> I'm not sure how relevant you will find this site (Churchouting.org). While I disagree with their methods, it's interesting reading material.
> 
> And they're Catholic, not Christian. Don't know how important the difference is to you.


Catholicism is still Christianity. It's just a more extreme denomination. Personally, I don't agree with a lot of the Catholic Church's... methods (for lack of a better word).
Personally, I'm not interested in what Church Outing is doing. It seems like their entire purpose is to bring down the Catholic church, which is just gonna cause more turmoil within Christianity.

With so many denominations and interpretations, it's hard to decide what to believe. I've chosen to be Non-denominational, but the non-denominational Christians are mostly for taking the Bible completely literally.

At this point, the only thing I can do is read the Bible and interpret it myself, and God willing, I'll understand it and come to my own conclusions.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Well, I have an answer, sort of.
> 
> From a purely Biblical standpoint, you're going to Hell for a lot of things before they even get to the gay part. From a less-Fundamentalist stance, though, unless you've done a great number of wrongs to people without trying to make up for them, you probably aren't.
> 
> I'd say you aren't, but keep in mind that I don't know you.


I've always tried to be an overall good person. I'm not mean or sarcastic or hateful towards others and always try to do what I believe is the right thing. Unfortunately, I think too hard about a lot of things, which is why I'm agnostic.

My heart and mind tell me that there is nothing wrong with being gay, but the religion I've followed all my life (and for the longest time believed) says otherwise (or so most in that religion want me to think).


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## JarlArild (Nov 25, 2009)

Maybe Christian GLBT people need to band together and start a new denomination that preaches tolerance of others sexuality and God loves every one no matter what their sexual preference is.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> I've always tried to be an overall good person. I'm not mean or sarcastic or hateful towards others and always try to do what I believe is the right thing. Unfortunately, I think too hard about a lot of things, which is why I'm agnostic.
> 
> My heart and mind tell me that there is nothing wrong with being gay, but the religion I've followed all my life (and for the longest time believed) says otherwise (or so most in that religion want me to think).


You know, there are other branches of Christianity, some of which are gay-friendly. If you ever decide to be Christian again, give one of them a try.

Otherwise, don't worry too much. Be yourself--God will understand. At least, that's how I see it.


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## xcliber (Nov 25, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> You know, there are other branches of Christianity, some of which are gay-friendly. If you ever decide to be Christian again, give one of them a try.
> 
> Otherwise, don't worry too much. Be yourself--God will understand. At least, that's how I see it.



This is pretty much what it's coming to for me. There's still one more catch, I am agnostic. So unless I decide to fully believe in Jesus and God, I'm still going to hell. 

But I'll save that for another time.


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## LoinRockerForever (Nov 25, 2009)

Easy fix, Ban god.

Shit I mean if gays like god, whats next? They like water too? What the shit....


< gay atm.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

xcliber said:


> There's still one more catch, I am agnostic. So unless I decide to fully believe in Jesus and God, I'm still going to hell.


See, I'd even dispute _that_. If God really wanted everyone to believe in one religion, He could easily provide incontrovertible evidence that it was the only correct one--by permanently carving "I am that I am" on the moon, for example. The same goes for if He really wanted everyone to believe in one particular denomination.


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## Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs (Nov 25, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> You don't get it, do you. If the _doctrine of the faith_ rejects YOU - then there's hardly much incentive to stick around with a bunch of people that basically _hate your guts_, is there?
> 
> But oh yeah, I forgot. You think being gay or the like is a CHOICE, and that such people basically decide to be gay _for the sole purpose of pissing off society in general and some dude in the sky in particular._ Because it allows you to smugly believe that the fault isn't of your religion, but of the nasty horrible rebellious sinners whom you despise. Heaven forbid that your "faith" might be like, you know, WRONG.
> 
> If you believe *that*, there's a bridge in Sydney that you may be interested in buying...


 
First off, Mayfurr, I *never *said it was a choice. Stop making up stuff in your head. 

Second, 


> You don't get it, do you. If the _doctrine of the faith_ rejects YOU - then there's hardly much incentive to stick around with a bunch of people that basically _hate your guts_, is there?


 
Did you not read what I wrote?



Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs said:


> I guess it's* really* because when they come out to their religious parents, who were probably told it's a choice by their parents, they react negativity to their gay kid.


 
Dumbass furfag.

P.S. New Zealand is an ass stain on the world and their healthcare sucks.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

1) Even the Catholic Church endorses homosexuality. Being gay is fine. Impure thoughts and gay sex, however, are not.

2) While being gay may not be a choice, acting on that is, same as everything else. If you follow the Bible, and act on your impulses, you are sinning. Will that keep you from heaven? Maybe, maybe not. But it is still a sin.

3) For the most part, it isn't Christianity/the Bible that's destroying lives. It's people. So frankly, it comes down to the individuals, not the religion itself. As a Christian, a relationship with God and his Word is a very personal, individualized experience. Not something that anyone else has the right to butt in on. After all, 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> 1) Even the Catholic Church endorses homosexuality. Being gay is fine. Impure thoughts and gay sex, however, are not.
> 
> 2) While being gay may not be a choice, acting on that is, same as everything else. If you follow the Bible, and act on your impulses, you are sinning. Will that keep you from heaven? Maybe, maybe not. But it is still a sin.
> 
> 3) For the most part, it isn't Christianity/the Bible that's destroying lives. It's people. So frankly, it comes down to the individuals, not the religion itself. As a Christian, a relationship with God and his Word is a very personal, individualized experience. Not something that anyone else has the right to butt in on. After all, 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.



Gods word does not exist. The bible was not written by god but by another human living on this fucked up planet. The bible makes god look like a narrow minded asshole.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Gods word does not exist. The bible was not written by god but by another human living on this fucked up planet. The bible makes god look like a narrow minded asshole.



You can't really pick and choose parts here. The Bible calls itself the Word of God.

I'm not religious myself, but I'm also not stupid enough to be disrespectful to someone who's sticking to their beliefs. Because, realistically, science takes as much faith as religion.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> 1. You can't really pick and choose parts here. The Bible calls itself the Word of God.
> 
> 2.Because, realistically, science takes as much faith as religion.



1. The Bible can say all it wants - It was written by men, not God. If it were written by just God, then there wouldn't be a Book of This Guy, or a Book of That Guy - Just GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDD

2. Science does not take faith, because it is fact. Faith explicitly encompasses "no facts required"....That's the #1 difference between science and religion.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> You can't really pick and choose parts here. The Bible calls itself the Word of God.
> 
> I'm not religious myself, but I'm also not stupid enough to be disrespectful to someone who's sticking to their beliefs. Because, realistically, science takes as much faith as religion.



But religious are also disrespectful to those who are not religious, but that is ok is it?

And how the fuck does science take faith with religion? you are now talking big stinking BS. 

Just because a book says it is gods word does not mean it IS gods actual word. That is like someone telling me sherlock holmes from a fictional story exists and believing it. SOME HUMAN wrote the bible without backing up their claims that this what god says. The day someone proves to me that the bible is true is the day I will start believing and following the bible. Until that day the bible is just a fictional book someone made up many years ago to fool dumbasses into believing it.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> 1. The Bible can say all it wants - It was written by men, not God.
> 
> 2. Science does not take faith, because it is fact. Faith explicitly encompasses "no facts required"....That's the #1 difference between science and religion.



Also ^^^^^ this.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> But religious are also disrespectful to those who are not religious, but that is ok is it?



How can an idea be disrespectful? No. People are disrespectful. Religion itself isn't.



> And how the fuck does science take faith with religion? you are now talking big stinking BS.



Really? Let's pick an example. One closely linked to this. Evolution. There are two main parts to this, commonly combined: abiogenesis, and the evolution itself. Well, Science has shown that both are possible, and backed up by a significant amount of fact. Yet, here's the thing. How many supporting experiments have you been involved it, executed, or otherwise directly observed? Why do you trust your high school science teacher when they say cesium is highly reactive in water? Why? Faith.

The Bible trusts an ancient text. You trust a modern text. Same thing. (Oh, and how often are texts wrong? Yet you still believe in science, because you have faith in it.)



> Just because a book says it is gods word does not mean it IS gods actual word. That is like someone telling me sherlock holmes from a fictional story exists and believing it. SOME HUMAN wrote the bible without backing up their claims that this what god says. The day someone proves to me that the bible is true is the day I will start believing and following the bible. Until that day the bible is just a fictional book someone made up many years ago to fool dumbasses into believing it.


The Bible is the only historical religious text referencing God, Jesus, and the whole Christian religion. You believe in Christianity? Well, you'd better believe in it's source. And if you believe the source, you believe it's the Word of God. You don't believe in Christianity, then you don't believe the Bible is true.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> How can an idea be disrespectful? No. People are disrespectful. Religion itself isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For someone who says they are not religious why are you backing religion up so much? you speak like you are religious. You are also brushing over points made against religion like the fact the bible WAS WRITTEN BY MEN HUMANS IE HAIRLESS MONKEYS, religion is not based on FACT whatsoever, science is, I believe what science tells me because science is able to back up what it claims, religion can not do that. Also look up the definition of FAITH, I think you will find there is more than one definition of it.

No I do not believe in christianity, I believe in gods existance, I just don't believe the bullshit any religion claims. Like I said before, the bible for one, makes good look like an ass. But christianity is too stupid to see it.


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## Azure (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> How can an idea be disrespectful? No. People are disrespectful. Religion itself isn't.


Ideas can be disrespectful.  It's really quite simple.  Religion is disrespectful in that it is innately racist, sexist, and prohibitive.




medjai said:


> Really? Let's pick an example. One closely linked to this. Evolution. There are two main parts to this, commonly combined: abiogenesis, and the evolution itself. Well, Science has shown that both are possible, and backed up by a significant amount of fact. Yet, here's the thing. How many supporting experiments have you been involved it, executed, or otherwise directly observed? Why do you trust your high school science teacher when they say cesium is highly reactive in water? Why? Faith.


This has been discussed earlier ITT, and many times on this board.  You don't have faith in science.  It is testable and provable. Faith requires lack of knowledge, and in the case of evolution, there is mountains of knowledge and evidence that makes it a scientific fact. 



medjai said:


> The Bible trusts an ancient text. You trust a modern text. Same thing. (Oh, and how often are texts wrong? Yet you still believe in science, because you have faith in it.)


See the above.  The Bible is a collection of quasi historical bullshit laced with mind control and ethnic traditions of a specific group of people.



medjai said:


> The Bible is the only historical religious text referencing God, Jesus, and the whole Christian religion. You believe in Christianity? Well, you'd better believe in it's source. And if you believe the source, you believe it's the Word of God. You don't believe in Christianity, then you don't believe the Bible is true.


What sources?  Half of the damn thing was written long after the events took place, I can't imagine their sources were more than word of mouth along with what sparse, biased historical records were kept at the time.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> For someone who says they are not religious why are you backing religion up so much? you speak like you are religious.



Because I'm not closed minded enough to think I know everything. Actually, I think any educated person is like that. The more you know, the more you realize how little you know.



> You are also brushing over points made against religion like the fact the bible WAS WRITTEN BY MEN HUMANS IE HAIRLESS MONKEYS, religion is not based on FACT whatsoever, science is, I believe what science tells me because science is able to back up what it claims, religion can not do that. Also look up the definition of FAITH, I think you will find there is more than one definition of it.



And why do you believe science can back itself up? What proof have you, yourself seen? How are you 100% sure there are subatomic particles? Have you observed them or their effects any? Have you done the gold foil experiment to prove the existence of a nucleus? No, you trust that it's true.

Besides, science has a brutal success rate in it's theories anyways. Yet you still put faith in something that has a very bad track record for correct theories.



> No I do not believe in christianity, I believe in gods existance, I just don't believe the bullshit any religion claims. Like I said before, the bible for one, makes good look like an ass. But christianity is too stupid to see it.



You keep saying Christianity like it's a sentient being. It's not. It's a common ideal people flock to. Christianity is not stupid. It cant be, since it's pretty incorporeal. People are.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> Because I'm not closed minded enough to think I know everything. Actually, I think any educated person is like that. The more you know, the more you realize how little you know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read what Azure said, you don't put faith in science, it is different. Now stop quoting me and picking on me and take not that two other people have also responded to this conversation. Ignoring them is rude. Either that or you are being narrow-minded and are deliberately ignoring their points because they match mine.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> Read what Azure said, you don't put faith in science, it is different. Now stop quoting me and picking on me and take not that two other people have also responded to this conversation. Ignoring them is rude. Either that or you are being narrow-minded and are deliberately ignoring their points because they match mine.



I'm not picking on you. Their posts are just very similar. Why repeat myself?


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## Darkwing (Nov 28, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> 1. The Bible can say all it wants - It was written by men, not God.



This, I agree with. 

I mean, think about it, this book is thousands of years old. Chances are over time the original bible was altered/changed. Possibly, I would assume, by a corrupt ruler/preacher who wanted people to see things his way (Propaganda+Fear tactics, It's commonly used today). 

And the very first, original copy of the bible is very likely irrecoverable today. Considering that it's probably missing pages, it's ink probably smeared, probably lost somewhere deep below the ground/underwater, and probably even burned by people who were possibly against the bible.


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## Azure (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> I'm not picking on you. Their posts are just very similar. Why repeat myself?


My post isn't similar at all.  Don't be a copout.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> I'm not picking on you. Their posts are just very similar. Why repeat myself?



Why breeze over their points which I agree with?


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Ideas can be disrespectful.  It's really quite simple.  Religion is disrespectful in that it is innately racist, sexist, and prohibitive.



It's the meaning people give it that ends in discrimination.



> This has been discussed earlier ITT, and many times on this board.  You don't have faith in science.  It is testable and provable. Faith requires lack of knowledge, and in the case of evolution, there is mountains of knowledge and evidence that makes it a scientific fact.



And how much did you get out of a textbook? A Bible, if you will? How many sources did you actually check? How many did you verify? At what point did you just trust the author to be right? Put faith in their words?



> See the above.  The Bible is a collection of quasi historical bullshit laced with mind control and ethnic traditions of a specific group of people.



And a strange amount of information that was ahead of it's time. Knowledge that was dumbed down to their level of understanding, but today, we see the reason behind such a thing, and it's pretty good. Oh, and how about the numerous historical alignments?



> What sources?  Half of the damn thing was written long after the events took place, I can't imagine their sources were more than word of mouth along with what sparse, biased historical records were kept at the time.



I'm aware of the proposed chronology of the events and recordings. But, if one believes in the Judeo-Christian God, who's whole idea, existence stems from the words written in the Bible, you should probably lend some credibility to the source of such an idea. And if the Bible claims to have been the words of man inspired by God, or to use it's exact words, the 'Word of God', you should probably lend some credibility to that too.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> My post isn't similar at all.  Don't be a copout.



Done. I'm not avoiding your posts. I just saw them as similar.


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## medjai (Nov 28, 2009)

Though, in hindsight, I don't think this topic is appropriate for this thread. It seems I got dragged into a red herring here, as one of my pseudo-related, offhand comments got latched onto, dragging this off topic.

You guys want to continue this, make a new topic. I'm more than willing to continue this, just not here.


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## Scarborough (Nov 28, 2009)

medjai said:


> [1]And why do you believe science can back itself up? What proof have you, yourself seen? How are you 100% sure there are subatomic particles? Have you observed them or their effects any? Have you done the gold foil experiment to prove the existence of a nucleus? No, you trust that it's true.
> 
> [2]Besides, science has a brutal success rate in it's theories anyways. Yet you still put faith in something that has a very bad track record for correct theories.



1. This has nothing to do with faith in science but faith in other people.

Faith in other people involves faith that they're telling you the truth, that not everybody's out to screw you, that by human interaction, we can effectively communicate information. If you don't have faith in other people, you don't function in society. Period. You can't make economic trades, you can't communicate, you can't do anything. Hell, without faith in other people, that computer you're typing on just might kill you. Right now.

But that has to do with faith in people. Not faith in science.

Unless you're going to get into "faith in your own senses," which, at that point, the question is "who the hell cares?"

2. [citation needed]

But otherwise, it's clear that you don't really uh, understand the whole backbone of science. Science doesn't claim something to be the TRUTH and FACT, ironclad, in stone, etc. Which is why all scientific theories are considered THEORIES: they haven't yet been disproven. Science is based in doubt, not faith. Science is disprovable, not provable.

Science says that you accept the best model as workable until a better model comes along. It means that the truth constantly evolves. It means that we need to use new techniques to test our old theories. That science has a bad track record means we're getting closer to the truth.

You know at WalMart when they used to have those kind of bowls where you'd roll the quarter and it'd start out way on the edge but then get closer to the center until it finally fell through that little hole? That's kind of like how science works. We're just getting closer to the truth.

ETA



medjai said:


> And a strange amount of information that was ahead of it's time. Knowledge that was dumbed down to their level of understanding, but today, we see the reason behind such a thing, and it's pretty good. *Oh, and how about the numerous historical alignments?*



Forer effect.


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## kazroo (Nov 28, 2009)

Tycho said:


> http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
> 
> Also, oh snap, 6th level is Dis. Took test again, got level 7. 8)
> 
> I got a higher score for Treachery (level nine) and Fraudulent/Malicious/Pandering (level eight) than I thought I deserved, though.



The wretched King Minos has decided your fate. His tale wraps around his body 7 times.
SPELLING FAIL!!! :U
and also i wish i got level 9.. that satan sounds like a fine-looking man. ;D


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 28, 2009)

Medjai, you're trying to make it so vague, that you'll inevitably be correct.

And you're also missing the point. Take a science text book about physics, describing various laws, rules, and all the big names that described physics, and made the formulas for it, so on and so forth...Even without the book crediting all of it's sources, IT CAN.

That's the point. You're trying to say we're taking so much on faith, but it's provable, it's testable, and has sources - Even if we do not have it in our hands at that very moment. This stuff is doable, where the bible cannot. 

If a friend tells you that gravity exists, do you expect him to sit there and prove it?

He tells you the Earth revolves around the Sun - Do you expect him to cite where he got that information?

You know it exists, you know it as fact, and he's merely spreading well-known facts. He doesn't need to sit there and cite you where he got the information, because that would be retarded. I know these are weak rebuttals, but the arguments are weak to begin with. 

The term "faith" should not be used so loosely, because then it starts to get vague and confused.


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## Smokey_Kitty (Nov 28, 2009)

xcliber said:


> the thought being damned to an eternity in hell scares me.
> 
> So from a Christian standpoint, does being gay automatically earn you a one way ticket to hell?
> 
> Thoughts? Discussion?


Yeah I think so... I wouldn't worry about it if I was you, religous groups always say something like that to scare people into joining them.

You ask me their all BS, If theres a god, I'm sure he loves everyone.... Because he made us if he exsists....


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 28, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> Medjai, you're trying to make it so vague, that you'll inevitably be correct.


That's what everyone who believes in mystical shit does, whether he's a fortune-teller or a Christian apologist, or anything in between.



> The term "faith" should not be used so loosely, because then it starts to get vague and confused.


Correction: The term "faith" should only be employed by fans of George Michael, because the phenomenon it describes is useless otherwise.


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## Ratte (Nov 28, 2009)

The republican god hates all of you sinners.


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## Jack (Nov 28, 2009)

no you are not damned. according to one pasture "if you stop and repent. even if later in life, you can regain your salvation"

but also in the dark ages when Catholicism ruled, and the priests had more power than the king. who knows if any of the bible was re-written to bend the people to the popes will. you never know.

but what I know and believe is that "if you stay loyal to Jesus Christ you will find your way to heaven"

I am bisexual and a strong believing Christian. and that has to count for something.


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## JarlArild (Nov 28, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with being gay. God loves everyone so the bible tells me so.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> There is nothing wrong with being gay. God loves everyone so the bible tells me so.



The bible is hypocritical.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 28, 2009)

Jack said:


> no you are not damned. according to one pasture "if you stop and repent. even if later in life, you can regain your salvation"
> 
> but also in the dark ages when Catholicism ruled, and the priests had more power than the king. who knows if any of the bible was re-written to bend the people to the popes will. you never know.
> 
> ...


Actually, homosexual relations were tolerated even up to Shakespeare's time. It wasn't until the King James Version (a.k.a. the version all the Fundies call the original) that homosexuality began to be widely demonized.


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## Darkwing (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> The bible is hypocritical.



You couldn't have been anymore right. 

Personally, I think that the bible is hypocritical because it was probably edited/altered so many times by corrupt priests/popes/kings/other rulers, or people of power, in the past. 

I mean, I do believe in God, but the bible.... It's just too confusing for me to believe in it.


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## JarlArild (Nov 28, 2009)

yes the bible is hypocritical but I was thinking of that kids song that I was forced to learn in Sunday school


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## Ratte (Nov 28, 2009)

lol texans


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 28, 2009)

Jack said:


> *but what I know and believe is that "if you stay loyal to Jesus Christ you will find your way to heaven"*



This is why the bible is bullshit, along with most religions, but in this case christianity. God is supposed to be the one who created the world, the planet and everything on it, if god put all that work into it wtf do christians always say "stay loyal to jesus" isn't the whole idea of religion to worship a god? Jesus is not god, jesus was supposed to be his son, If I am to worship anybody and be loyal to anybody it is god and god alone. 

Why the flying fuck does christianity say to stay loyal to jesus? I never got this.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> This is why the bible is bullshit, along with most religions, but in this case christianity. God is supposed to be the one who created the world, the planet and everything on it, if god put all that work into it wtf do christians always say "stay loyal to jesus" isn't the whole idea of religion to worship a god? Jesus is not god, jesus was supposed to be his son, If I am to worship anybody and be loyal to anybody it is god and god alone.
> 
> Why the flying fuck does christianity say to stay loyal to jesus? I never got this.


That's because you're uninformed. Christianity says that Jesus is God _and_ the Son of God. Which makes no fucking sense whatsoever, but it's what they believe. Also, the priest at a church I went to back when my dad and stepmom were getting married explained it sort of like this: "Jesus is your advocate when God judges you for your sins." So there's that too.

Honestly, _Christianity_'s not all that bad. If you look, you'll see that most of the hateful stuff is in the _Old_ Testament--and you know which half of the Bible that is, right? Besides, all the signs point to Jesus being gay :V


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## JarlArild (Nov 28, 2009)

Yes Jesus was gay he was with 12 men all the time God most likely is to I mean you never hear of a female angle and it never has explained how he got Marry pregnant.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 28, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> Yes Jesus was gay he was with 12 men all the time God most likely is to I mean you never hear of a female angle and it never has explained how he got Marry pregnant.


Immaculate conception. It's not because He's gay, it's because He's too poorly-endowed (or perhaps far too well-endowed) to impregnate a human woman. Plus he wanted to show off, I imagine--keep in mind, according to legend Chuck Norris is capable of similar phenomena.


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## xcliber (Nov 28, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> This is why the bible is bullshit, along with most religions, but in this case christianity. God is supposed to be the one who created the world, the planet and everything on it, if god put all that work into it wtf do christians always say "stay loyal to jesus" isn't the whole idea of religion to worship a god? Jesus is not god, jesus was supposed to be his son, If I am to worship anybody and be loyal to anybody it is god and god alone.
> 
> Why the flying fuck does christianity say to stay loyal to jesus? I never got this.



Christians are monotheistic. The way I was taught is that there is only one God but in 3 separate forms known as the "Father", the one we would ultimately call God himself, the "Son", Jesus, who was a worldly incarnation of God, and the "Holy Spirit", which is the spiritual part of God that dwells within all of us.


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## JarlArild (Nov 28, 2009)

Gay couples do that all the time its called artificial insemination


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 29, 2009)

I never understood how Christianity could call itself monotheistic, but then have both God and Jesus you were supposed to worship...And then some holy spirit shit, but they were all one? I'm calling bullshit, or mistranslation, because that shit is impossible.


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## Viva (Nov 29, 2009)

We are totally bitheistic, whether we want to admit it or not. There's God and Jesus, and the holy spirit is just dead Jesus walking, which is who we celebrate during Easter...but then where does christmas come in? And if Jesus gets all the holidays, why doesn't God get one? AAAHHH it's all very confusing! >_<


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## Foxstar (Nov 29, 2009)

You see, there's a huge issue with folks saying "Bible's done by men, men can be wrong, only way to know is when you get to God"

There -are- no do overs. None.

And one of the reasons most Christians get worked up about this is because they do not want or should not want to see -ANYONE- go to hell. That's a heavy weight to have to have placed on you when your judged if you just shrugged and go "I dunno, lol" They should not hate however, but they do need to speak against it.

Yes, you can repent, but no one knows the date of their end. No one. Repenting is not a card you can hold and then when death shows, pull out. Plus there's always punishment of some form for sin.  Always because it opens a path into your life for Satan to enter.

The New Testament is indeed something that currently applies because Jesus took everyone who will ever lived sin onto himself, died and went to hell for all of us. You have to accept him into your life tho and doing so does not mean you keep doing the things you were doing before hand. Don't completely discount the Old Testament however. A lot of the outmoded stuff you speak of was based on a people who demanded such rules. God does listen, after all, when they wanted a king, he gave them that, etc.


FYI, the only unforgivable sin would be rejecting Jesus. And the bible strongly implies that only a mature Christan can do that. I'm speaking on the level of Peter before the end. That's a mature Christan. Most of us in the faith, even ones who have been active for years are not. 

If your honestly curious and serious. about this, I'll see if I can get Rick Griffin of Housepets to step in and answer questions. Or you could just drop him a PM.
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rickgriffin

But there are a number of places in the bible where wonton sexual lust and acts are punished. Remember the city who tried to sodimize three angels? Look how they ended up.


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## Foxstar (Nov 29, 2009)

Lastdirewolf said:


> I never understood how Christianity could call itself monotheistic, but then have both God and Jesus you were supposed to worship...And then some holy spirit shit, but they were all one? I'm calling bullshit, or mistranslation, because that shit is impossible.



God is the father.

Jesus is the son. Only though Jesus can you get to God. The Holy Spirit is just a form of God.


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## Duality Jack (Nov 29, 2009)

Faith should have no bearing on sexuality and vice versa or so I think. But I am no expert I am faithless as any other Agnostic.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

Here, people. Some videos relevant to the thread at hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoP0-RM8Po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jrh8VVwMI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkXPyY9Wo_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNau_Cdll3w



Foxstar said:


> You see, there's a huge issue with folks saying "Bible's done by men, men can be wrong, only way to know is when you get to God"


Yeah--the statement's based in fact and not dogma. What blasphemy!



> There -are- no do overs. None.


Why, Captain Obvious, you've saved the day again!



> And one of the reasons most Christians get worked up about this is because they do not want or should not want to see -ANYONE- go to hell. That's a heavy weight to have to have placed on you when your judged if you just shrugged and go "I dunno, lol" They should not hate however, but they do need to speak against it.


That's why you stepped down from moderating fchan, then? Or did you get kicked out for preaching at everyone?



> Yes, you can repent, but no one knows the date of their end. No one.


Y'know, if the first time you said "no one" didn't get me, boy, that _second time_ sure would've! 



> Repenting is not a card you can hold and then when death shows, pull out. Plus there's always punishment of some form for sin.


Anybody else ever realize that God's the worst father ever? I mean, if _my_ kid did something bad, _I_ certainly wouldn't send him to the corner for all eternity.



> Always because it opens a path into your life for Satan to enter.


That's absurd. I don't even have a penis.



> The New Testament is indeed something that currently applies because Jesus took everyone who will ever lived sin onto himself, died and went to hell for all of us. You have to accept him into your life tho and doing so does not mean you keep doing the things you were doing before hand.


This sort of thing really makes me wonder if you're addressing the OP or just trying to convert everyone in the thread. The OP was raised Christian and grew out of it.



> Don't completely discount the Old Testament however. A lot of the outmoded stuff you speak of was based on a people who demanded such rules. God does listen, after all, when they wanted a king, he gave them that, etc.


Yeah, He gave them one to passive-aggresively show them that He was right about them not needing one. God's an even bigger bitch than I am.



> FYI, the only unforgivable sin would be rejecting Jesus.


This, children, is why Christianity is a bad religion. You can get away with every vile act a person can do, as long as you tell Jesus you're sorry.



> And the bible strongly implies that only a mature Christan can do that. I'm speaking on the level of Peter before the end. That's a mature Christan. Most of us in the faith, even ones who have been active for years are not.


You're explaining it wrong. Allow me.

*Hey kids, what do you call a mature Christian?
*_An atheist._


> If your honestly curious and serious. about this, I'll see if I can get Rick Griffin of Housepets to step in and answer questions. Or you could just drop him a PM.
> http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rickgriffin


Who died and made him God?



> But there are a number of places in the bible where wonton sexual lust and acts are punished.


What about lomein sexual lust? Or dimsum sexual lust? Does it only apply to Chinese food?
Also: This coming from a guy who commissions furry porn like I smoke cigarettes.



> Remember the city who tried to sodimize three angels?


Best Spring Break ever


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

All religions are based on beliefs not facts and they are constantly changed in there ideas to support the ruling class. Also a question why dose everyone assume that God is a man what if God was a woman or has no gender and if God were a woman would that make her a lesbian and who was Jesus es real daddy?


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## Mayfurr (Nov 29, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> But there are a number of places in the bible where wonton sexual lust and acts are punished. Remember the city who tried to sodimize three angels?



The same city where Lot _offered his daughters to the mob for *sex*_ as a substitute for the "angels" - instead of telling the mob to fuck off - and wound up getting rescued by God anyway?

Obviously gang rape isn't so bad to God if it's heterosexual rape rather than homosexual rape... :roll:


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## ADF (Nov 29, 2009)

Gay Christian's just further convinces me there is no such thing as a Christian in the majority of cases.

The bible is very clear about stuff like this, it is very clear about allot of things people choose to ignore; but still claim to be following the Bible.

How can people claim to be Christian but be picky about which parts of the bible to live by? They take what they like and leave what they don't. People who do follow the bible word for word are considered extremist, yet living by the bible is what the moderates will preach to you.

It's belief by convenience, they know most of the bible is nonsense; but follow it for personal comfort/fear of afterlife anyway. People are only interested in the good shit. Life eternal, a plan for this chaotic world, the baddies getting their just deserts etc. They will follow religion for these things but the moment that religion says something they don't like, well, they will just ignore/change it a little and still claim to be a member of that faith.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

ADF said:


> Gay Christian's just further convinces me there is no such thing as a Christian in the majority of cases.
> 
> The bible is very clear about stuff like this, it is very clear about allot of things people choose to ignore; but still claim to be following the Bible.
> 
> ...


The bible is written by man not God and has been changed over the course of Christianity and will continue to do so. One must go with what one believes in. Also the bible is more of moral guild lines than actual laws. Why can't I be gay and believe in God and Jesus?


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## MichaelFoster (Nov 29, 2009)

Christians (especially baptists) are hypocrites. Soooo yeah, I'm sure there are buttloads (no pun intended) of them.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

MichaelFoster said:


> Christians (especially baptists) are hypocrites. Soooo yeah, I'm sure there are buttloads (no pun intended) of them.



Not all Christians are bad I am a Methodist and if any one has read what I have written they will see that I am very liberal.


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## ADF (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> The bible is written by man not God and has been changed over the course of Christianity and will continue to do so. One must go with what one believes in. Also the bible is more of moral guild lines than actual laws. Why can't I be gay and believe in God and Jesus?



Here's the problem, you recognise that the bible is highly flawed because it has been changed by human interpretation over time. Yet, you still follow it? Either you recognise it is wrong and don't follow it, or you recognise it is true and do follow it. Including the parts that say homosexuality is an abomination.

Since it seems you have chosen to follow it, yet you are choosing not to follow bits here and there, you are a believer out of convenience. You are in it for the promised rewards, fudging a few teachings here and there when it suits you. You even bring it being a "moral guide" into question by challenging what the bible deems as immoral, along with all the other insane and wicked parts people have chosen to ignore when they call the bible a source of morality.

How can someone be a Christian when they choose to ignore so much of the bible?


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## MichaelFoster (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> Not all Christians are bad I am a Methodist and if any one has read what I have written they will see that I am very liberal.



I'm atheist with a catholic background. I went to a methodist church once with my ex-girlfriend and everybody thought it was rude for me to wear makeup.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

I believe in God, Jesus, hell, and heaven but also understand that the bible is a load of BS written by the Catholic church during the middle ages, and for the record I don't believe that homosexuality is an abomination but a evolutionary necessity.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

MichaelFoster said:


> I'm atheist with a catholic background. I went to a methodist church once with my ex-girlfriend and everybody thought it was rude for me to wear makeup.


All churches are like that down here they would all burn me at the stake and send me to hell  but Methodists are considered one of the more liberal churches. In other parts of the nation ex CT we have  a gay preacher who is trying to get gay marriage laws passed I don't know if any of the Bishop's are gay.


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## MichaelFoster (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> the bible is a load of BS written by the Catholic church



 O RLY?


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

Who knows what the Church did with it during the middle ages? I personally believe that they added changed, deleted any thing that would stand in there way of having total power. Also religion is one of the best means of controlling the masses according to Marx.


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## MichaelFoster (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> All churches are like that down here they would all burn me at the stake and send me to hell  but Methodists are considered one of the more liberal churches. In other parts of the nation ex CT we have  a gay preacher who is trying to get gay marriage laws passed I don't know if any of the Bishop's are gay.



They're definately the most liberal of all the christian churches, but they are a CHRISTIAN church that has a RELIGION that speaks out against gayness. If your preacher is gay and preaches, I'm sorry for him. But I feel like he's trapped and I would personally rather see to it that he says "eff you" to religion and stops living such a hypochritical life, for his own benefit and self, your favourite word, liberation.


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## ADF (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> I believe in God, Jesus, hell, and heaven but also understand that the bible is a load of BS written by the Catholic church during the middle ages, and for the record I don't believe that homosexuality is an abomination but a evolutionary necessity.



The Bible is a load of BS... but you believe in God, Jesus, hell and heaven...

So in other words you want what is promised by the religion but don't want to inconvenience yourself with its requirements?


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

I can only go with what I believe in like everyone else on earth. Maybe there is a God maybe not. Also its hard to accept the bible as fact when parts of it are impossible to my thinking like Adam and Eve I hate the thought of the human race being the product and inset, story of Moses there has never been any thing found in all of Egypt to support this story, Noah and his Arch how could an old man and his son gather enough wood which was a luxury item in the middle east during ancient times and build a ship big enough to hold 2 of every animal on the face of the Earth and gather those animals from all corner of the globe and sail with them for 40 days and nights.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

MichaelFoster said:


> They're definately the most liberal of all the christian churches, but they are a CHRISTIAN church that has a RELIGION that speaks out against gayness. If your preacher is gay and preaches, I'm sorry for him. But I feel like he's trapped and I would personally rather see to it that he says "eff you" to religion and stops living such a hypochritical life, for his own benefit and self, your favourite word, liberation.



I should do like everyone else that has problems with dogma and start new denomination that will allow me to be me and not go to hell. Its worked for all Protestants so far. Either that or I am just an atheist in denial is that possible?


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## ADF (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> I can only go with what I believe in like everyone else on earth. Maybe there is a God maybe not. Also its hard to accept the bible as fact when parts of it are impossible to my thinking like Adam and Eve I hate the thought of the human race being the product and inset, story of Moses there has never been any thing found in all of Egypt to support this story, Noah and his Arch how could an old man and his son gather enough wood which was a luxury item in the middle east during ancient times and build a ship big enough to hold 2 of every animal on the face of the Earth and gather those animals from all corner of the globe and sail with them for 40 days and nights.



Yet the whole God, Jesus, heaven and hell sounds reasonable?


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## candygirl23 (Nov 29, 2009)

In my opinion, being gay should be accepted. But due to religious beliefs.....You know....If God was so `forgiving' why would he condemn love between same gender. Bullshit.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

Good point but I must go with what I like.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 29, 2009)

Foxstar said:


> God is the father.
> 
> Jesus is the son. Only though Jesus can you get to God. The Holy Spirit is just a form of God.



I know this, but if only through Jesus, can you get to God - Why worship God, and not Jesus? Or both? :v I'm sure many Christians bullshit and say they worship God, but if Jesus is the only way to get there...well...you'd be worshipping Jesus pretty damn hard to get to God.


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## Jack (Nov 29, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Actually, homosexual relations were tolerated even up to Shakespeare's time. It wasn't until the King James Version (a.k.a. the version all the Fundies call the original) that homophobia began to be widely demonized.



Ya basically what I was tryin to say.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

Jack said:


> Ya basically what I was tryin to say.


Fuck, I said "homophobia" and not "homosexuality". >_<


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## Jack (Nov 29, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> This is why the bible is bullshit, along with most religions, but in this case christianity. God is supposed to be the one who created the world, the planet and everything on it, if god put all that work into it wtf do christians always say "stay loyal to jesus" isn't the whole idea of religion to worship a god? Jesus is not god, jesus was supposed to be his son, If I am to worship anybody and be loyal to anybody it is god and god alone.
> 
> Why the flying fuck does christianity say to stay loyal to jesus? I never got this.



Of couse there are those who, even if they saw in-disputable proof right in front of their faces would still argue its existance. (^ case in point.)


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## Jack (Nov 29, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Fuck, I said "homophobia" and not "homosexuality". >_<



as per what I saw, we were both trying to push the point that homophobia was started by people.

mine just more exaggerative. (I was just winging it any-how.)


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## joey2joey (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, I see many Christians eating shrimp and not stoning to death people who work on the sabbath... so I guess being gay is no less hypocritical.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 29, 2009)

ADF said:


> The Bible is a load of BS... but you believe in God, Jesus, hell and heaven...
> 
> So in other words you want what is promised by the religion but don't want to inconvenience yourself with its requirements?



I don't believe you need a stupid book to believe in good, you do not need to follow a stupid religion to worship god, jesus or whatever, you are perfectly able to pray in your own home, you are able not to sin without following a religion. 

As far as I am concerned the bible is BS aswell, I don't need a book to tell me not to sin, I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I am me, I am my own person, I make my own choices.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 29, 2009)

Jack said:


> Of couse there are those who, even if they saw in-disputable proof right in front of their faces would still argue its existance. (^ case in point.)



What do you mean "case in point?" there is no proof god exists. There is also no proof what the bible says is gods word, or is even remotely true.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I don't believe you need a stupid book to believe in good, you do not need to follow a stupid religion to worship god, jesus or whatever, you are perfectly able to pray in your own home, you are able not to sin without following a religion.


Um, no. If you believe in and accept Jesus, you're a Christian. Every denomination of Christianity will tell you that's the first thing you have to do to join. And that constitutes worship. Therefore, you _can't_ worship Jesus without a religion.
Though I suppose the same goes for any religious figure, really. I mean, belonging to a religion is _about_ worship. That's a key aspect, at least in the theistic* ones.

Also, "going to church" does not equal "religion". Religion is just as much about belief as it is about rituals**, and about doctrines for that matter. I used to go to church every Sunday, but I didn't believe a word they said, and I've never followed any of the rules I didn't personally believe in. Therefore, I'm not a Christian and never have been.

* Monistic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and (to an extent) Sikhism seem to replace "worship" with "meditation", but it's mostly a 1:1 substitution.
**Worship is about beliefs and rituals, but not necessarily doctrines. The Bible has a lot of conflicting doctrines in it, and while, in theory, the New Testament's supposed to retcon anything in the Old Testament that conflicts, a lot of people like to cherry-pick.



> As far as I am concerned the bible is BS aswell, I don't need a book to tell me not to sin, I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I am me, I am my own person, I make my own choices.


You're only saying that because atheism is a flavor of canned rebellion. No way in Hell did _you_ arrive there through logic, thought, and reasoning :V



RandyDarkshade said:


> What do you mean "case in point?" there is no proof god exists. There is also no proof what the bible says is gods word, or is even remotely true.


Yeah, that's what the "if" statement means.
He's saying that *even if there were* absolute proof (which he readily admits there isn't), some people would still argue with it. And that's true. Some people go beyond healthy skepticism into straight-up denial. I prefer not to think of myself as one of them, and I'm sure you do too, but there are such people around, and those are who he was talking about.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 29, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Um, no. If you believe in and accept Jesus, you're a Christian. Every denomination of Christianity will tell you that's the first thing you have to do to join. And that constitutes worship. Therefore, you _can't_ worship Jesus without a religion.
> Though I suppose the same goes for any religious figure, really. I mean, belonging to a religion is _about_ worship. That's a key aspect, at least in the theistic* ones.



I am not a christian. Just because I believe in "A god" does not automatically make me religious, if anything I am my OWN religion because I have my OWN beliefs.




> You're only saying that because atheism is a flavor of canned rebellion. No way in Hell did _you_ arrive there through logic, thought, and reasoning :V*



Obviously you missed where I said "I am my own person, I have my own thoughts, I make my own decisions." I am not Atheist either.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I am not a christian. Just because I believe in "A god" does not automatically make me religious, if anything I am my OWN religion because I have my OWN beliefs.


You specifically said Jesus, little boy.
Obviously, "a god" does not constitute a major religious figure. But that wasn't what you said. Are you going to tell me you didn't say what you said?

And I maintain that worshipping anything constitutes religion. Most people would agree with me, since most people are smarter than you.



> Obviously you missed where I said "I am my own person, I have my own thoughts, I make my own decisions."


Actually, no. I'm just mocking that bold assertion, because it's very blatantly false in your case. Especially since everybody and his brother claims that in almost precisely those words.



> I am not Atheist either.


Oh, that's right. You're even worse--a superstitious fool without even a proper religion to back him up. Pathetic.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 29, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> You specifically said Jesus, little boy.
> Obviously, "a god" does not constitute a major religious figure. But that wasn't what you said. Are you going to tell me you didn't say what you said?



I said jesus many times, I never said I believe or "accept" jesus.



> And I maintain that worshipping anything constitutes religion. Most people would agree with me, since most people are smarter than you.



I don't worship god, believing in god and worshiping god are completely different.



> Actually, no. I'm just mocking that bold assertion, because it's very blatantly false in your case. Especially since everybody and his brother claims that in almost precisely those words.



I have rarely seen those words used. Besides you do not know me, and you certainly can not read my mind, therefore you certainly do not know what I think or have thought.




> Oh, that's right. You're even worse--a superstitious fool without even a proper religion to back him up. Pathetic.



I'm not superstitious either. Stop telling me what I am you stupid little girl. If I was Atheist I would not believe in god, oh wait, I do believe in god, therefore I am not Atheist, and you are supposed to be more intelligent than I?

And like I said, I don't feel the need to have a religion, or follow any religion just because I believe in god. Now go away untill you are able to read all my posts and comprehend what I said.


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## Dass (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm trying with difficulty to think of a better way of saying "Rigor's argument is shyte as usual."

I'll just go with that.


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## Randy-Darkshade (Nov 29, 2009)

Dass said:


> I'm trying with difficulty to think of a better way of saying "Rigor's argument is shyte as usual."
> 
> I'll just go with that.



I don't mind the argument at all, what I don't like is someone telling ME what I am and what I believe in when no one online (except for one person" knows me, nor can anyone read my mind (although apparently Rigor can).


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## Dass (Nov 29, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I don't mind the argument at all, what I don't like is someone telling ME what I am and what I believe in when no one online (except for one person" knows me, nor can anyone read my mind (although apparently Rigor can).



That's why I said it's shyte. That's no way to argue a point.


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## Lobar (Nov 29, 2009)

Dass said:


> I'm trying with difficulty to think of a better way of saying "Rigor's argument is shyte as usual."
> 
> I'll just go with that.



Her argument isn't flawed, it's just her malicious personality shining through as usual.


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## Geek (Nov 29, 2009)

God is gay


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

Funny--I don't see you making a rebuttal, Dass.
I mean, surely a brilliant poster such as yourself should have no trouble shutting me up. Oh, wait a tick, I'm being sarcastic.
Go lay down.



RandyDarkshade said:


> I don't mind the argument at all, what I don't like is someone telling ME what I am and what I believe in when no one online (except for one person" knows me, nor can anyone read my mind (although apparently Rigor can).


I'm afraid even I can't read a blank page. Ultimately, I'm just telling you what words actually mean, rather than what you seem to think they mean.

If you worship something, you either belong to a religion or are superstitious. Cults are just religions with no political power, so that counts as the former. The most obvious difference between the two is that religions have multiple adherents and a reasonably clear doctrine, whereas superstitiousness is largely an individual trait and has rituals (throw spilled salt over your shoulder, etc.), and there may be people who commonly believe it, but there are generally no doctrines save for those the individuals have made up for themselves. Do you see the difference?



Lobar said:


> Her argument isn't flawed, it's just her malicious personality shining through as usual.


You know you love me :V


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## Geek (Nov 29, 2009)

RandyDarkshade said:


> I don't mind the argument at all, what I don't like is someone telling ME what I am and what I believe in when no one online (except for one person" knows me, nor can anyone read my mind (although apparently Rigor can).



I think it is also proper to point out that God invariably is a mirror image of the believer. If the believer hates homosexuals god wants them dead, if the believer think drinking alcohol in moderation is ok then so does god. This indicates that the god they believe in is not an external entity independent of themselves but rather their own inner voice - i.e. themselves.

Show me a case where a person genuinely thinks one thing is right but his god told him it is wrong and you might either have a case of a genuine external god or a person with multiple personality disorder. My bet would be on the MPD case, since that is not as uncommon. However, I guess that if the case really arose a further investigation into the case could determine if the person does otherwise not expose symptoms of multiple personalities the theist might have a good case in favor of some external entity. However, this entity might still not be god, it could be a demon etc but at least he might have something that are as yet undetected by science.

The theist doesn't even have that so their case is less than convincing.


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## Dass (Nov 29, 2009)

Lobar said:


> Her argument isn't flawed, it's just her malicious personality shining through as usual.



It's not a problem I have with her argument, it's a problem I have with the way in which she's arguing it. For example


Rigor Sardonicus said:


> I'm afraid even I can't read a blank page. Ultimately, I'm just telling you what words actually mean, rather than what you seem to think they mean.



Which is sloppy arguing.


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## Azure (Nov 29, 2009)

Jack said:


> as per what I saw, we were both trying to push the point that homophobia was started by people.


The Bible created homophobia. Have you even read the fucking thing?


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## SnowFox (Nov 29, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> The Bible created homophobia. Have you even read the fucking thing?



I think "eww they like butts and butts are gross" may play a part in it too.

But yeah, fuck the bible.


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## Captain Howdy (Nov 29, 2009)

Geek said:


> I think it is also proper to point out that God invariably is a mirror image of the believer. If the believer hates homosexuals god wants them dead, if the believer think drinking alcohol in moderation is ok then so does god. This indicates that the god they believe in is not an external entity independent of themselves but rather their own inner voice - i.e. themselves.
> 
> Show me a case where a person genuinely thinks one thing is right but his god told him it is wrong and you might either have a case of a genuine external god or a person with multiple personality disorder. My bet would be on the MPD case, since that is not as uncommon. However, I guess that if the case really arose a further investigation into the case could determine if the person does otherwise not expose symptoms of multiple personalities the theist might have a good case in favor of some external entity. However, this entity might still not be god, it could be a demon etc but at least he might have something that are as yet undetected by science.
> 
> The theist doesn't even have that so their case is less than convincing.



NephilimFree (on Youtube) is actually a good case for this.

He doesn't say it explicitly, but has hinted at that he would do some _bad_ things, if his interpretation of God didn't exist. I'm talking like, murder, rape, and pillage bad. 

There's been a few Christians on Youtube that say something revealing along the lines of:

"Morals come from God, so Atheists cannot possibly have morals, because they don't believe in God - The Bible tells me_ not_ to murder my fellow man, to love my neighbours, to not have gay relations, so on and so forth - And even though some times, I think "Man, that guy has angered me so much, I could kill him!" but I do not, because I have morals - I follow God."

Something to that effect, yeah?

Obviously, not a direct quote, but isn't that a frightening ideal? What they're indirectly stating?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

Geek said:


> I think it is also proper to point out that God invariably is a mirror image of the believer. If the believer hates homosexuals god wants them dead, if the believer think drinking alcohol in moderation is ok then so does god. This indicates that the god they believe in is not an external entity independent of themselves but rather their own inner voice - i.e. themselves.


See, that would work a lot better if there weren't already established religions in the world that indoctrinate children. It becomes a chicken-or-egg thing after a while. Though I suppose that's how they all started--people with a common belief or prejudice got together and claimed divine inspiration, and the rest was history.



> Show me a case where a person genuinely thinks one thing is right but his god told him it is wrong and you might either have a case of a genuine external god or a person with multiple personality disorder.


That's a very interesting test--certainly much more so than somebody believing his god said something is wrong but merely doing it anyway. Or somebody's god saying something's right and required, but the person himself believing it's wrong.



> My bet would be on the MPD case, since that is not as uncommon. However, I guess that if the case really arose a further investigation into the case could determine if the person does otherwise not expose symptoms of multiple personalities the theist might have a good case in favor of some external entity. However, this entity might still not be god, it could be a demon etc but at least he might have something that are as yet undetected by science.


Isn't MPD known for being hard to detect, though?



AzurePhoenix said:


> The Bible created homophobia. Have you even read the fucking thing?


Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the citizens were prideful and inhospitable. Did you even read the rest of the article? :V

Though, even if they were destroyed for homosexuality, Jesus said that they got off better than a man who dies holding onto his fortune. Keep in mind, the New Testament retcons the Old wherever there are conflicts.


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## Azure (Nov 29, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the citizens were prideful and inhospitable. Did you even read the rest of the article? :V
> 
> Though, even if they were destroyed for homosexuality, Jesus said that they got off better than a man who dies holding onto his fortune. Keep in mind, the New Testament retcons the Old wherever there are conflicts.


They also fucked random men in the ass, and it spawned the whole man shall not lie with man it is abomination, thus creating the basis for Christianity to be intolerant of homosexuality. That's all I was going for.  Fuck the rest of that fairy tale anyway.  I mean, the ending is some guy having sex with his two daughters while drunk, just to continue the clan.  Fucking Jews.  Hitler was on to something.


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## ArielMT (Nov 29, 2009)

Actually, Matthew 22:35-40, Mark 12:28-31, Luke 10:25-37, and John 13:34-35 seem to me to command that Christians extend love toward all, including gays, and including gay Christians, as the greatest of all commandments.  I'm not Christian, so take this for what it's worth, but it still seems plain to me.



Geek said:


> God is gay



Actually, God is bi.  Everyone who believes in God believes He loves him/her totally, and according to the Bible, God created Adam and reluctantly created Eve when Adam got lonely.


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## Azure (Nov 29, 2009)

ArielMT said:


> Actually, Matthew 22:35-40, Mark 12:28-31, Luke 10:25-37, and John 13:34-35 seem to me to command that Christians extend love toward all, including gays, and including gay Christians, as the greatest of all commandments.  I'm not Christian, so take this for what it's worth, but it still seems plain to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, God is bi.  Everyone who believes in God believes He loves him/her totally, and according to the Bible, God created Adam and reluctantly created Eve when Adam got lonely.


I am of the opinion that you can't retcon your own damn dogma, especially if it's the "original" word of god, and not of some prophet who claims to speak for him. They wrote it, they meant it. I mean, if you want to get even more technical, marriage is only valid of your wife is a virgin.


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## Nargle (Nov 29, 2009)

I never understood why some Christians can be very judgemental and hateful towards "sinners." I guess they can hate sins, but they should really leave the jugding to God, and stick to following Jesus's example and respect everybody.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

AzurePhoenix said:


> Fucking Jews.  Hitler was on to something.


Actually, I agree with this statement. They brought the world circumcision, racism, parsimony, ugly hats, and Christianity, the bastards.


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## MichaelFoster (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> I should do like everyone else that has problems with dogma and start new denomination that will allow me to be me and not go to hell. Its worked for all Protestants so far. Either that or I am just an atheist in denial is that possible?



If there was a god, you wouldn't be able to just make your own way to heaven.


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

That's the wonderful thing about religion we can make it up as we go and shape it to please ourselves


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## ArielMT (Nov 29, 2009)

JarlArild said:


> That's the wonderful thing about religion we can make it up as we go and shape it to please ourselves



If you do that, then what you practice either has a different name entirely or no name at all.


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## jj987321 (Nov 29, 2009)

Being gay breaks a rule. It's a sin, but really a sin's a sin so when it come down to it being gay is in some way no worse then lying lol. It just that simple minded ppl like to hype then damn things to instill a fear in ppl that when you break it down turns out to nothing more then bullshit ^^

plus if you can start breaking apart the Christian believes...it gotz some really contradicting material in there. >.>


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## JarlArild (Nov 29, 2009)

ArielMT said:


> If you do that, then what you practice either has a different name entirely or no name at all.



All you have to do is call it the 1st reformed church of whatever and find a group of people to follow you and now you have created a new branch of Christianity or whatever.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 29, 2009)

I've only read bits and pieces of this. I don't know if the original poster is continuing to view the thread or not. But as someone who previously studied in Seminary (that's not SEMEN-ary, thanks  ), I thought I could hopefully give some relief to the OP if he's still reading.

There are several areas in the Bible where homosexuality is mentioned-- this being the King James version that we're speaking of. In each place, in the original Hebrew or Greek, the words used can have multiple meanings. They're not the same root word in each instance, in other words, and the words used can be stretched to read homosexuality in the presence of an extreme desire to do so. But on their own, within a cultural comparison, they ultimately do NOT translate to "homosexuality."

And homosexuality was NOT one of the sins of Soddom and Gommorah. The sins of these two cities, as further proven by Jesus later on, was being inhospitable. In order to understand this, it's important to understand the cultural reference, and why being inhospitable in a desert is considered to be WORSE than a capital offense.

Now, in the New Testament, I forget the exact verse, but there's a spot where a list is given of those who'll go to hell. Included in the KJV of the list is "homosexuals." However, in close study of the originating documents, you will find that the word more closely actually comes to what we would call a pedophile nowdays. However, there's a deeper meaning there, in that it was someone who purchased the use of children for sexual gratification. This can be connected to homosexuality because it was cheaper and easier to buy boys for sexual gratification. A girl's virginity was tremendously valuable, and if she was sullied or used in any way and it could be proven, the family would be saddled with her until her death (she would no longer be saleable into marriage). 

Thus, because of the homophobic atmosphere of the times during which the KJV was created, the word became "homosexual" rather than "one who lies with children" or pedophiles who purchase child prostitutes, as we would call them. I think it's easy to see why these people would be condemned to hell, don't you?

Additionally, study sometime the time frame around which the KJV was created. The serfs were expected to reproduce, and to do so with complete abandon. They were, after all, their masters' bread and butter. So the more slaves (sorry, serfs) you owned to work your land while they starved, the richer you became. I don't know if you've noticed lately, but homosexual people do have some challenges when it comes to reproducing massive families and producing plenty of slave labor through having many, many children.

___________________

There may well be some relief in knowing that not ONE single instance of the word "homosexual" in the Bible actually refers to "homosexual." The only instance in which it can be shown that God might be against homosexuality is in Leviticus. However, keep in mind that Leviticus was instructions for PRIESTS. 

Also, in the same portion of Leviticus, God says that all bastard children must be stoned at birth, no one who has ANY bodily imperfection can be allowed into the temple, and that handicapped people are an abomination and must also not be allowed to enter the temple.

You don't see the same Christians who villify homosexuals running around screaming that handicapped people are an abomination and that no one with bodily imperfections is allowed into the churches, do you? And when's the last time your family went out and stoned a bastard? Or their kids, for back-talking, for that matter?

The convenience of ignoring SOME of the Torah (old testament) while venerating other verses of the SAME section may be really nice... but it doesn't make any sense when facing a practical application in life.


_____________

Let's talk, too, about the inconsistencies in the Bible. Now, please know that if you are a Christian, I'm very fine with that! That's your choice. But when you start looking at things like this, and you're a Christian OUT OF FEAR, and not because you feel LOVED by "God," then I think it's time to revisit the reasons why some choose to reject the Bible.

Even some who know it immensely well. I know it incredibly well... and I reject it based on a great many things. But one question that you must ask yourself, when you're caught up in fear is... if God is truly all-powerful, why has he been unable to keep his story straight?

Either the Bible is a lie, it isn't literal, or Satan is far more powerful than God and can corrupt HIS WORD with ease.

Let's take a look at some contradictions:

How many times does one TOTALLY genocide a race? According to the Bible, the Isrealites TOTALLY annihilated the Amalekites not once, not even twice, but three whole times. What?

Then, who first saw Jesus after he died and ressurected? The gospels differ on this.

Did the Centurion come to Jesus, or did he send for Jesus? The gospels differ on this.

How many generations between Jesus and David? The Bible differs on this. Additionally, they both show how Joseph was David's descendant, but Joseph wasn't Jesus' father. You can't have it both ways... was Jesus a descendant of David? If so, he was a mortal man, not borne of God. If he wasn't, then he didn't fulfil the prophecy.

Did Saul's companions see the apparition of Jesus, or didn't they? The gospels differ on this.


So are you seriously going to tell me that these details don't matter? If this is really the Word of God, then it can't possibly be wrong. Yet, both of them can't possibly be right... either they saw, or they didn't. It's not a "well, both" kind of situation. You see, or you don't see. You're pregnant, or you ain't. So which is it? God couldn't remember?

Then there's the fact that Saul-who-was-Paul directly contradicts Jesus with the whole "saved by grace" business. Jesus talks of the end times before his great return... and then he CLEARLY states that not a single letter of the Torah law shall pass away until ALL (his return) is come to pass. Paul argues with this. So, do I believe Paul, or Jesus??

In fact, Jesus even says that anyone who convinces children not to obey the Torah laws will go to hell. Paul/Saul is going to hell!

____________________________


Then consider the fact that those people who are openly condemning you for being homosexual and saying you are going to hell are openly defying Jesus anyway. He who is without sin, cast the first stone. 

And in the meantime, how many of them are following Paul's dicates that no woman be allowed to speak in church, no woman cut her hair, all men keep their sideburns long, all women cover their hair and be modest in their clothing and without adornment, etc.?

Convenient that they demand that you not be who and what you really are... yet they allow women to speak in Church, to cut their hair, to wear adornment, etc. Women are allowed to wear pants (those are MEN'S CLOTHES, OMG!), and they even wear mixed cloths together!

I bet not one of them has killed a bastard lately, nor stoned their child for backtalk. 

So don't worry, if you're going to hell, your family will be with you. That has to be SOME consolation, no?

_____________________

Sorry to carry on for so long, but I have had to deal with that gripping terror of hell, myself. I really feel for anyone who is caught currently in the throes of it, and I wanted to offer to the OP a more extensive discussion than I usually see offered on this subject.

Even if you're willing to let go of the many contradictions in the Bible and cling to Christianity, the fact of the matter is that none of the words translated as "homosexuals" actually mean that. And the Leviticus reference is oft cited incorrectly in support of the argument. Yet while it's agreed that the killing of newborns is no longer necessary, it seems that the killing of homosexuals survived Jesus' death on the cross. Which is ludicrous in light of it being homosexual priests that were the problem, not the rest of the population. 

__________________________


I hope that I helped the OP. If the OP posts requesting it, I will go to all the hassle and work of looking up the gospel verses regarding the mad variations between the gospels. Other than that, though, I'll let people who care enough about it to do so, look for themselves. 

Best wishes to all.


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## Jashwa (Nov 29, 2009)

PheonixStar said:


> I've only read bits and pieces of this. I don't know if the original poster is continuing to view the thread or not. But as someone who previously studied in Seminary (that's not SEMEN-ary, thanks  ), I thought I could hopefully give some relief to the OP if he's still reading.
> 
> There are several areas in the Bible where homosexuality is mentioned-- this being the King James version that we're speaking of. In each place, in the original Hebrew or Greek, the words used can have multiple meanings. They're not the same root word in each instance, in other words, and the words used can be stretched to read homosexuality in the presence of an extreme desire to do so. But on their own, within a cultural comparison, they ultimately do NOT translate to "homosexuality."
> 
> ...


You spelled phoenix wrong in your name.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 29, 2009)

Jashwa said:


> You spelled phoenix wrong in your name.



Yes. I do that on purpose. It has personal meaning to me.

Was it necessary to quote all of my text in order to notify me of that?


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## ArielMT (Nov 29, 2009)

Christianity considers being sexually active in any way a sin, and no distinction should be made whether it's straight, bi, or gay.



JarlArild said:


> All you have to do is call it the 1st reformed church of whatever and find a group of people to follow you and now you have created a new branch of Christianity or whatever.



That's not what you described.  The only fundamental differences between the various Christian denominations are the differences in how the same immutable scripture is interpreted, unless you're referring to JWs (who believe Christ was killed on a pike, among other things), Mormons (who have their own book of scripture claiming Jesus came to the New World), or tiny castaway cults idolizing men over anything divine.

What you described is changing that which the faith you've professed as your own dictates can't ever be changed -- the word of your god -- to suit whatever pleases you.  As a non-Christian, it's not my place to guess whether it's right or wrong, but that's still what you say you're doing.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 30, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> The same city where Lot _offered his daughters to the mob for *sex*_ as a substitute for the "angels" - instead of telling the mob to fuck off - and wound up getting rescued by God anyway?
> 
> Obviously gang rape isn't so bad to God if it's heterosexual rape rather than homosexual rape... :roll:



Yes, and do remember that these pure, sinless people who were saved from the fires of the two cities went out and raped their father. They founded two entire civilizations by raping their father, in fact. 

But it wasn't the incest that caused them to become the enemies of the Hebrews. What did that was when they refused hospitality to the Hebrews... that should sound familiar by now.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 30, 2009)

xcliber said:


> That's because being black is not and never has been a sin. I never recall blacks ever being called unholy just because they were black.
> 
> Gays have never been accepted, until recent times.
> 
> Does anybody know where I can find a list of all the passages in the bible that reference homosexuality in any and all context?



Here's a link for you. Keep in mind that "Sodomites" are arguably NOT the same thing as homosexuals (because that's not the sin for which they were destroyed, even Jesus says so). Additionally, some of the references here go back to the discussion I already posted about the abuse of words with other meanings, turning them into "homosexual" when they actually have a different meaning.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm

Keep in mind as you read that, that a lot of the 'homosexual' references are actually references to pedophiles.



Rather than post again, I'm going to edit this in:



xcliber said:


> Catholicism is still Christianity. It's just a more extreme denomination. Personally, I don't agree with a lot of the Catholic Church's... methods (for lack of a better word).
> Personally, I'm not interested in what Church Outing is doing. It seems like their entire purpose is to bring down the Catholic church, which is just gonna cause more turmoil within Christianity.
> 
> With so many denominations and interpretations, it's hard to decide what to believe. I've chosen to be Non-denominational, but the non-denominational Christians are mostly for taking the Bible completely literally.
> ...



I'm going to go out on a limb here, and open myself up to others for criticism. But here we go, I'm going to talk to you on a 'personal' and heart-felt level. I think some things, particularly spirituality, deserve it.

There are other spiritual beliefs that have a Loving, Universal Intelligence at their center. When I was leaving Christianity, I was caught up in a dreadful terror. I was so desperately afraid of leaving it for several reasons. One, because I really do feel certain that there is a "god" or some sort of Universal, Intelligent, Loving Being/Intelligence at the center of things. And additionally, because I thought that if there IS a god, then I guess Christianity HAD to be "the" right religion. I don't know why that is, but that's how I felt.

So I tentatively, and with great fear, began to look at other religions. I've finally settled on the Toa as my "religious text" or my chosen Holy Book, because it's the one that feels the most loving to me. The only thing that I've always accepted as spiritual fact is that God loves me, and all of humanity. Somehow, in all of Christianity, that was the part that always resounded with a deep and inevitable sense of TRUTH for me.

I started to measure every spiritual belief system I found against this truth. And I found that Christianity just doesn't fit it. Love doesn't condone slavery. Love doesn't condone (and definitely doesn't command!) the murder of children. Love doesn't find someone who's physically imperfect to be a desecrating abomination in its temple. Love doesn't put someone purely and perfectly innocent into a Garden of Eden, lie to them, stand around while the 'big brother' capitalizes on that lie, and then punish them and all of their descendants forever.

So, consider the possibility that you're looking in the wrong place for the true nature of God. The Bible contains enough truth to make it tempting. It contains enough terrible lies to make leaving it dreadfully frightening.

Love doesn't threaten and terrify.

I won't settle for worshiping any god that is LESS loving than I am. Especially not when that god tells me that I am the bad one, I am the evil one, I am the fallen one. Well, that might be true... but if so, why is it that I, the bad and evil one, knows that genocide and slavery are wrong... but the Great and Good God thinks they're peachy keen, bean? Hey?

It doesn't have to be Christianity or nothing. The atheists can believe as they do, and they have what they feel is good reason for what they believe. The Christians believe what they do, and they have what they feel is good reason to believe as they do.

That doesn't mean that you have to accept either one. There are other teachings that might speak to your soul with more clarity and honesty than either of these. Just because the Christians say every other belief is demonic in origin, doesn't make that true. It's a scare tactic. One that worked extremely well on me for many years.

It was difficult for me to give up the idea of it having to be either-or. It doesn't. There are many belief systems out there, and some of them even portray the Creator as loving, compassionate, and filled with welcome towards all of creation.

Just a thing for you to consider, assuming you even bothered with my long-ass posts.

yep, I'm a talker!


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## Jashwa (Nov 30, 2009)

PheonixStar said:


> Yes. I do that on purpose. It has personal meaning to me.
> 
> Was it necessary to quote all of my text in order to notify me of that?


Yes.


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## PheonixStar (Nov 30, 2009)

No.


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## Mayfurr (Nov 30, 2009)

PheonixStar said:


> Yes, and do remember that these pure, sinless people who were saved from the fires of the two cities went out and raped their father. They founded two entire civilizations by raping their father, in fact.
> 
> But it wasn't the incest that caused them to become the enemies of the Hebrews. What did that was when they refused hospitality to the Hebrews... that should sound familiar by now.



<nods> Very true - and a lot of people conveniently forget both those little aspects of the Sodom and Gomorrah story in their rush to condemn homosexuality.

And so far I'm finding your "long-assed posts" very good reading


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## Azure (Nov 30, 2009)

PheonixStar said:


> No.


Maybe so?


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## Lobar (Nov 30, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> And so far I'm finding your "long-assed posts" very good reading



I concur - a rare and welcome addition to these forums.


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## PheonixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks guys. I hope the OP has found some sort of resolution, or at least found a line of questioning to pursue that will lead him to some.


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