# Abusing the Administration's good intentions



## Wolfblade (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm posting this here because the suggestion box isn't the proper forum for this sort of discussion, but I firmly believe that this is a discussion that needs to take place. I respectfully ask that the administration let this discussion run its course, as you guys have honestly been letting this particular crowd give you way more grief than ANYBODY deserves. PLEASE do not silence someone trying to defend you guys when you're so very hesitant to do anything to shush the people who are just attacking you out of a personal grudge and jealousy that you have managed to hold together something that they have not even been able to get off the ground.

This thread and discussion are in response to a thread started specifically in response to the administration placing an incredibly justified and long-overdue ban on a particularly virulent and insubordinate user:

http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=2290


Ok. *looks at the icons of the people complaining there and takes a wildly imaginative leap of assumption*

First, for the sake of being on topic with the justified pretense this began under: A concern was addressed, the administration gave their answer.

Since that wasn't apparently good enough, and the thread has continued based on this specific instance:

Do any of you genuinely believe the good people volunteering their time and energy to keep this place going, despite all this user's efforts to the contrary, should be expected to give him any consideration whatsoever? 

A: Almost every significant attack against this site in its history has come from the general circle of friends this person has been a prominent member of.

B: Very little _non-constructive_ criticism is laid against the site's administration from anyone outside of this person and this same general group.

C: The people now complaining all lied directly to the administration in trying to defend this person when he was evading a ban placed on him from this forum (unless some of you genuinely believed what you were saying, in which case he lied to you as well, so why defend him?)

He, like most of you guys (and don't get pissed at me for using 'you guys' when you've all so conveniently branded yourselves as his minions/supporters/whatever), have done very VERY little to this site other than give grief to the people trying to do something nice for the community.

It is about time they got tired of just taking it. 

You want a reason for his ban? Do you really want them to insult your intelligence by acting like you don't all know damn well why he was banned? Pick a reason. Ban Evasion. Mod and admin harassment. User harassment, insulting, flame-baiting, thread derailing, spamming the owner's personal page with insults, I mean come on, do we have to keep this act up? 




			
				nrr said:
			
		

> Let's go back to basics for a second here. A ban is set for an individual as an effort to keep said user from doing one (or more) of a number of things:
> 
> Harming himself/herself or others



N/A



			
				nrr said:
			
		

> Causing a digressive trend in various community nuances



http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=1759&pid=24091#pid24091 
He posts in a thread, his followers follow. Ridiculing users needlessly.
http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=2166&pid=24313#pid24313
Several users leap to join in trying to aid him in his Ban Evasion by directly lying to the administration. The close relationship these people have with the person (uhm, sigs and avatars?) leavs little to no room for belief that they honestly didn't know.



			
				nrr said:
			
		

> Trolling, harassing, or otherwise provoking other users unnecessarily


 http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=2166&pid=24144#pid24144
Self explanatory.



			
				nrr said:
			
		

> Deliberately being insubordinate with regard to management's requests



The fact that the above posts were made under an alternate account used to evade a ban placed on him way past due.



			
				nrr said:
			
		

> _Insert more here..._



http://www.furaffinityforums.net/search.php?action=results&sid=6027

Is that good enough for everybody?

Very few of you people come across as actually just stupid. The rest of you know as well as he does why he was removed, so kindly cut the act and leave these people alone. They're trying to do something good for the community, and all you can do is try and bring them down. 

All the trolling, criticism, harrasment of the administration, and general BS from these people all comes under the flimsy and laughable pretext of "wanting to help" because "they know better." They know so much better, that for a long time, their ridicule against this site consisted of "we'll show you with our own site." All THIS community has been shown from these users is vitriol, a desire to see this place fail due to a persistent grudge against the individuals running it, and a COMPLETE disregard for the happiness, entertainment, enjoyment, and feelings of the entire community who are HAPPY with this site AND you fine people who run it.

Your tolerance and forgiveness to this group has accomplished nothing but give them chance after chance, which on more than one occaision has been used to bring this site down. With rare exception, there is little in the way of signifiant drama or flamage on the site or forum except when this group goes active. For the love of god, Please stop taking their crap.


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## Hanazawa (Jul 30, 2006)

Too bad Mephistopheles ISN'T NOBUYUKI.

The ban being discussed in that thread isn't about Mephistopheles anyway.

Please get your facts straight before wasting your time writing long arguments about nothing.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 30, 2006)

Umm except that the moderator responding actually wanted to know what was going on, as well as other moderators and staff, when I talked to them in private. That's kind of interesting that they'd like to be in on the discussion.

You can get off your soapbox now.


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## Wolfblade (Jul 30, 2006)

Hanazawa said:
			
		

> Too bad Mephistopheles ISN'T NOBUYUKI.
> 
> The ban being discussed in that thread isn't about Mephistopheles anyway.
> 
> Please get your facts straight before wasting your time writing long arguments about nothing.



You're trying to join a group that apparently hasn't let you in yet. Trust me. Meph was Nobu. As such, that thread was talking about him.



			
				Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Umm except that the moderator responding actually wanted to know what was going on, as well as other moderators and staff, when I talked to them in private. That's kind of interesting that they'd like to be in on the discussion.
> 
> You can get off your soapbox now.



Can't possibly be because any time they give your group solid information, it is twisted and used to make them look bad. Arshes, I sometimes do think that maybe you genuinely believe in the bogus front Nobu puts up. Tell me, did you know that you were lying when you said Meph wasn't Nobu, or did you honestly believe it?

I know Hanazawa likely didn't know better since she's new to the folds, but I do believe there's a chance that you might be being duped as well.


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## wut (Jul 30, 2006)

uhm. MEPH ISN'T NOBU GET THAT INTO YOUR SKULL ALREADY.

Mephisto and Nobu are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. But you're not going to believe that either way so they're no point telling you over and over again because we're nothing but "icky trolls" right?

Why are we even bringing up that laughable excuse for a witch hunt anyway? The current discussion has absolutely nothing to do with that.


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## Hanazawa (Jul 30, 2006)

Wolfblade...

you are officially... well, I don't want to get in trouble. Let's just say "poorly informed".


P.S.

I don't like the implications that I am stupid, unable to think on my own, or jump so readily to conclusions as you do.


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## Pomander (Jul 30, 2006)

Wow. You really haven't a clue as to what you're really talking about, do you?

And you apparently haven't a clue as to how many real site issues (i.e. bugs, things were sadly quite rampant back in the day due to a preference for "aesthetics" rather than site performance) the particular "circle" you're insulting have actually addressed.

In short, off the soapbox, shorty. Just because you dislike the way other users carry themselves, it doesn't mean they deserve the banstick. Nice that opinions like yours don't carry much weight, huh? Otherwise, really, half the internet ought to be blacklisted, as well.

Also, wtf? "...believe in the bogus front Nobu puts up." I've had the chance to meet Nobuyuki in person and he is NOTHING like the picture you are attempting to paint. He is a very rational person who just happens to be quite passionate about his views and opinions, rather like the whole lot of people here. In fact, Nobu is the sort of person who will also hop up on the e-soapbox and write a freaking essay attempting to persuade others; he would not resort to the subversive methods you have so ridiculously accused.

Please get your facts straight before posting such ignorant, biased diatribes.


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## facek (Jul 30, 2006)

Nobu was not Meph, he was too busy playing Unreal to get around to any monkey business like that. This is also entirely about an issue that happened today which you aparently are not aware of.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 30, 2006)

Wolfblade said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe you were WARNED about bringing up this issue, because your information is highly incorrect. Both you and Dave Hyena had made this accusation previously and were asked not to bring it up again unless you had solid evidence. You sir, are now making attacks on someone's character who cannot defend himself and I thought that also constitutes as trolling?

Just to let you know the addresses of Meph didn't match Nobu's and both have been on the board AT THE SAME TIME and replying to different threads. In Fact Meph was making posts BEFORE Nobu's ban. Why don't you look at that for a moment.

The bans in question is about a few bans that occured on FA's main site, it has nothing to do with the forums or ban evasion. So once again you're wrong.

I'll advise you to drop the issue since you do not have the correct information and in fact it now looks like you're just trolling to kick up issues  you had with a user. That's a matter between you and him.


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## Wolfblade (Jul 30, 2006)

wut said:
			
		

> uhm. MEPH ISN'T NOBU GET THAT INTO YOUR SKULL ALREADY.
> 
> Mephisto and Nobu are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
> 
> Why are we even bringing up that laughable excuse for a witch hunt anyway? The current discussion has absolutely nothing to do with that.



*nods* Your opinion is noted.



			
				Hanazawa said:
			
		

> Wolfblade...
> 
> you are officially... well, I don't want to get in trouble. Let's just say "poorly informed".
> 
> ...



I did not mean to imply you are stupid. When you first started posting here, I remember distinctly thinking you were someone with your wits about you. You are actually a good example of the harm that comes from allowing the virulent element this group represents to remain unhindered in a community. You had valid concerns about the operation of this site, but were influenced into a much more powerfully negative opinion against the administration by these others, who criticise not to help, but merely to bust the admins' chops.

I do not jump to conclusions. I know Meph is Nobu as surely as I know you are mistaken. I am not insulting your intelligence, I am telling you that you are misinformed.



			
				Pomander said:
			
		

> Wow. You really haven't a clue as to what you're really talking about, do you?
> 
> And you apparently haven't a clue as to how many real site issues (i.e. bugs, things were sadly quite rampant back in the day due to a preference for "aesthetics" rather than site performance) the particular "circle" you're insulting have actually addressed.
> 
> ...



Opinion and stance noted, and politely disagreed with as being also misinformed. The people who run this site have put up with too much from this group. It is NOT "helping" to throw rocks at someone's house to see which windows break and which don't. Creating a problem to illustrate how there is an issue IF that problem were to occur is absolutely stupid to praise as helpful unless the person was ASKED to do so, and then actively ASKED to help fix the noted problem. With RARE exception, that is all that Nobu and the other people from this group have ever done, WITHOUT being asked to, and I believe repeatedly being turned down in their offers. Which is WHY they so bitterly rave against this site.



			
				facek said:
			
		

> Nobu was not Meph, he was too busy playing Unreal to get around to any monkey business like that. This is also entirely about an issue that happened today which you aparently are not aware of.



Again: You are Misinformed/misled/mistaken. Sorry.


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## wut (Jul 30, 2006)

My "opinion"? I have my information first hand. Present your evidence to the contrary.


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## Damaratus (Jul 30, 2006)

Actually, I'm under the impression that none of you on here know of everything that has happened, which means you are all working under assumptions of your own.  

Before you all continue to go slinging accusations at each other, you all should consider that the actions that were taken today by the administration were done for a reason, something that wasn't done hastily, but after careful consideration and review of the facts that were discovered.  

The administration is not "ban happy", time is taken to make determinations before they are applied.


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## Hanazawa (Jul 30, 2006)

Wolfblade said:
			
		

> I do not jump to conclusions. I know Meph is Nobu as surely as I know you are mistaken. I am not insulting your intelligence, I am telling you that you are misinformed.



And I sure as hell know that I talk to both Nobuyuki AND "Meph" outside of this forum and website, and I know that they are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Please, Wolfblade. Your information is incorrect. I can prove that mine is correct, whereas you cannot prove yours. Before you run yourself any further into the ground, stop.

As far as the "harm" these users have done or have not done - I make my own decisions. I say what I feel is necessary. My posts are not influenced by anyone but myself. If I disagree with what "these people" or ANYONE else has to say, I will disagree with them. Any criticisms I have towards the site are in an effort to make it better. If you are making reference to my snark regarding trouble tickets, that snark is fueled only by my own two brainial hemispheres, and I can guarantee you that if anything "these people" have told me to not even bother with the system. I still want to see it work, so I keep using it, complaints and all.

Seriously, let it go, and please stop making personal attacks on me - even if it's not intentional, you ARE implying that my brain doesn't function on all four cylinders every time you suggest that I have been swayed by "these people".


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## Wolfblade (Jul 30, 2006)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> I believe you were WARNED about bringing up this issue, because your information is highly incorrect. Both you and Dave Hyena had made this accusation previously and were asked not to bring it up again unless you had solid evidence. You sir, are now making attacks on someone's character who cannot defend himself and I thought that also constitutes as trolling?



Because in an atmosphere where the people causing problems have tied the administrators' hands against them taking action, the "silenced dissention" they bring up whenever one of them is told to shush is actually any voice trying to defend them.

I am not attacking his character. I am displaying it. Which would not have happened had YOU not publicly attempted to ridicule the administration into undoing the unbelievably overdue and thoroughly justified ban on him. Your side can attack the people running this place all you like. But should anyone try to defend them, you all imediately cry for them to be silenced. If you are right, and I am wrong, then you don't need to have the admins silence me to prove it. 

And you never answered my question: Did you know Meph was Nobu? Did you lie, or was he lying to you too?



			
				Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Just to let you know the addresses of Meph didn't match Nobu's and both have been on the board AT THE SAME TIME and replying to different threads. In Fact Meph was making posts BEFORE Nobu's ban. Why don't you look at that for a moment.
> 
> The bans in question is about a few bans that occured on FA's main site, it has nothing to do with the forums or ban evasion. So once again you're wrong.
> 
> I'll advise you to drop the issue since you do not have the correct information and in fact it now looks like you're just trolling to kick up issues  you had with a user. That's a matter between you and him.



This is not an issue with a single user. This is an issue with a group of users who have no purpose here but to hinder the enjoyment of this site's service for its users, and to give unneeded an uncalled for grief to the people trying to just do something NICE for people. I am trying to say what they can not say. They feel they have to tolerate this abuse out of fairness, and they do not. The crap your ArtPlz crew puts them through is absolutely disgusting. None of them deserves the BS of the grudges started by Jheryn and Arcturus' split. It is in the past, and they have tried repeatedly to let it go. Each time, only to be given more justification to throw your idea of "fair" to the wind and simply do away with all of you people identifying with the group that has been the source of almost every major attack against this community.

This discussion boils down to the personal grudges of a select few people against the people running this site. These people have been allowed to act on their grudge to the continued detriment of this community, and I think that enough is enough. 

It is high time that the people running this community remember who they started it for: the community of artists and art appreciators of the furry/anthropomorphics community. The very same people who are consistently denied full enjoyment of their service by allowing the small group of KNOWN grudge-holders to continue to exist in a community they want nothing from but total failure.


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## facek (Jul 30, 2006)

Ahah, I knew this was going to come back to Artplz, you have to let go of hate, it'll spoil you if you just let it sit inside.

Edit: What are they putting people through? Please quench my ignorance.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 30, 2006)

BTW Wolfblade, you're wrong, and I was helping Dragoneer get the evidence as to who the user is. Drop the issue please.


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## Marthaen (Jul 30, 2006)

Yes, Nobuyuki and Meph are two different people. Both are banned. One, Meph, was banned under another name, Arcturus.


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## Pomander (Jul 30, 2006)

Wolfblade said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You know what? I can't even begin to comment on all your insane drivel. 

Please do not speak for the entire userbase. My "full enjoyment" of the service of FA is not denied by "this group"'s existence. I believe it to be totally acceptable to have people here whose opinions do not mesh with everyone else's -- spice of life, what have you. 

More than anything, you're the one resembling a troll right now.


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## Gar-Yulong (Jul 30, 2006)

You know why this is funny?

Because it resembles one gigantic episode of Phoenix Wright: FurAffinity Edition. I mean, throughout reading this, every new post just seems like another person screaming "OBJECTION!" and waving their fingers or what have you about. Don't we have something better to do than drag out the drama llama? Especially after a Moderator AND an Admin seem to have made an effort to straighten things out.

My two cents, now I'm out of here before I get in trouble.


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## Wolfblade (Jul 30, 2006)

wut said:
			
		

> My "opinion"? I have my information first hand. Present your evidence to the contrary.



You first. T_T



			
				Hanazawa said:
			
		

> And I sure as hell know that I talk to both Nobuyuki AND "Meph" outside of this forum and website, and I know that they are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
> 
> Please, Wolfblade. Your information is incorrect. I can prove that mine is correct, whereas you cannot prove yours. Before you run yourself any further into the ground, stop.
> 
> ...



Perfectly intelligent people are entirely capable of being misled, through no fault or shortcoming of their own. I say again, I intend no insult to you or your intelligence. If you draw offense where none is intended, I am simply afraid there is nothing I can do about that.



			
				facek said:
			
		

> Ahah, I knew this was going to come back to Artplz, you have to let go of hate, it'll spoil you if you just let it sit inside.
> 
> Edit: What are they putting people through? Please quench my ignorance.



Well lets see, the people most closely associated with ArtPlz often correspond to people most closely associated with attacks against this site. The people associated with ArtPlz but not directly associated with the attacks are nonetheless frequent sources of non-constructive and unwanted "help" in the form of dissent, disobedience, and outright defamation of the people keeping this community going. 

Yeah, it comes back to that group, who despite having SO much that was promised to this community with their project, seem to have nothing to do but express their grudge by telling these people what they feel to be wrong with theirs.


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## Pomander (Jul 30, 2006)

Marthaen said:
			
		

> Yes, Nobuyuki and Meph are two different people. Both are banned. One, Meph, was banned under another name, Arcturus.




Ahahaha, why am I not surprised? XD

(I swear I hear the faint sound of a drama bomb in the distance!)


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## wut (Jul 30, 2006)

Marthaen said:
			
		

> Yes, Nobuyuki and Meph are two different people. Both are banned. One, Meph, was banned under another name, Arcturus.



Will that be all, Wolfblade?

While we attempted to not drop names (just because the mere mention of some names completely derails things...), I guess it would have had to down to it in the end.


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## facek (Jul 30, 2006)

Wolfblade said:
			
		

> Well lets see, the people most closely associated with ArtPlz often correspond to people most closely associated with attacks against this site. The people associated with ArtPlz but not directly associated with the attacks are nonetheless frequent sources of non-constructive and unwanted "help" in the form of dissent, disobedience, and outright defamation of the people keeping this community going.
> 
> Yeah, it comes back to that group, who despite having SO much that was promised to this community with their project, seem to have nothing to do but express their grudge by telling these people what they feel to be wrong with theirs.



Okay, please correct me if my understanding of your explanation is incorrect.

Arcturus Hacks FA.
They talk to Arcturus in IRC.
They do not speak to admins like peasants to royalty.
ArtPlz bombed.

Therefore these people are all trolls, assholes, all around meanies who deserve bans. Is that correct?


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## Marthaen (Jul 30, 2006)

Oh and I took care of another Nobuyuki clone...


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## Dragoneer (Jul 30, 2006)

Frankly, I can't help but feel that the original intent of this post was meant to be inflammatory and to troll. If there were concerns regarding postings and abuse of the administration it could have been taken TO the administration.

As it is, the thread is pointing a lot of fingers without naming names, but the people who are being pointed at know full well who they are. More so than that, by also not naming names you're insinuating people who may or may not have had anything to do with the issue.

If you have a concern like this let us know and we will address is. In my view, this is a situation and issue between the admins and the users involved.


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## Marthaen (Jul 30, 2006)

Thanks Dragoneer! Closing the thread.


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## yak (Jul 30, 2006)

*sigh* once again....
please folks, don't take it personally - this is just a point of observation.

is it just me noticing the same particular pattern reoccuring over and over and over again? it always starts the same way - the first few posts on the thread are on topic, while the others.... become a living proof to the forcefield theory, e.g action=reaction. 
some people attack others, and some people defend themselves and their words. tables turning... and the process repeats.  it no longer matters what topic the discussion is under, or what was previuosly said,.. rational thinking is forgotten in favour of bashing the posts of other people.  the whole former 'discussion' turning into a pointless, meaningless, confusing blame-bait 'furpile', where people are tearing apart other people's posts into quotes to generally pick on what the othes said, just for the sake of picking.  

[update]
*sigh* see what i mean? now we are talking about ArtPlz and remembering events long ago passed and forgotten.. what next? nazi's? martians? surprise me 


so, my view on the whole ban-the-oh-noes-bothersome-trolls is simple.... mind-numbingly simple.

*there are no such things as trolls*
there are people with (sometimes) a severe lack of tolerance, patience, level-headedness, education, manners and respect - both sides. but they all are capable of maintaining a fairly polite, reasoned discussion, if the need arises. so all it takes, most of the times, is to just ask the person nicely to stop. 
their /fun/ is to watch you make a fuss about their actions..  the more fuss the better.  so.. choak their flame with your rationality? don't act as if you are annoyed, offended, depressed, angry - even if you are - just don't. 

now look at this thread.... all of you are acting no better then the same trolls you adress. you post rude personal comments, you attack each other, you make very little sence in what you are saying and are adding unnecessary details onto this conversation...
.... while completly failing to realise the fact that most of you don't know even a half of what's been going on behind the scenes - and probably you will never know. 
yet some of you feel free to assume the oppinion of the majority, or a rumour passed to you by your best friend - as a fact - and base all your logic on it. this is extremly silly, if you ask me. 
it's kind of funny to watch you invent new and yet unmentioned 'facts' to support your own posts... ah, yes, i understand that no-one likes to accept the fact that you were wrong in your words. i understand your attempt not to 'loose your face', or the so-called  'community points', or just plain look silly. but continuing to post on a thread that long ago got resolved and closed for user input... is unrational... you're so....sensitive.. to what you are being told..

as much as you hate to admit it, an average admin is not as open-minded to the community as you might think. yes, they are listening to what you say, but... they always do things their way - which /can/ be influenced, but only to a certain degree. 

here, at FA we strive to be more opened to the fluctuations of the community. hey, it is you folks who run it - not the admins - that is why almost everything you say is taken in consideration when making a certain desigion. 

...almost.... you see, being an admin, as an act of your own initiative is not that rewarding as it might seem to be. seem that everything what is still keeping this site together is the devotion of some people to this cause. a very taxing initiative, let's admit that, ok?  the site costs a helluva lot of money just to keep it on the net. it isn't making any money of it's users to make up for it (more about donations to follow), it is taking quite an effort to keep it organised, moderated and fast, relatively stable. a lot of time gets spent on resolving personal harassment issues - a thing, IMO, to be resolved prefferaby without admin interference, for multiple reasons... in other words... it's like a second job.

do try to understand the average FA admin, having spent hours on working with FA, only to come to the forums and get a couple of flame-threads to resolve. with people actively attacking each other, rudely and, what is ironic - absolutly pointlessly.
while i do realise that different people have different thickness' of their skins, and different levels of tolerance to certain things - sometimes even the toughest dude on the block wants to go like 'ah, go to hell' - and either to lock the threads and ban people - or to simply dissapear for a while.
an action frowned upon every time by myself, but i can understand the reasoning behind this. 

*and i'm asking you to try and understand them as well.*

this may be a slightly contradictory fact, but we don't like to close theads.  *sigh* but we have to. there comes a certain point in time when the thead at question simply stops being in any way helpfull - and tuns into a useless raging 'furpile'. it doesn't contribute to the topic any more, and what's worse - it is becoming a threat to the integrity of the society.
...a thread such as this.... 
i ask you to please try to understand that we are not closing our eyes on the problem(s), even thou there seems to be no /visible/ contribution from the admin team. we have a private forum, in which we are debating on variuos issues prior to taking any action. this is mandatory. yes, there are cases of impulsive deeds from the certain individuals in the admin team seldomly occuring, *frowns* - but they can probably be explained by the failure of one's tolerance.  mind you that such cases are always being discussed, behind the scenes.

*that, or i live in a fictional non-existent world* 

now i'm not going to adress the whole nobu/meth/nrr/ArtPlz/abuse/trolling issue at hand, since i clearly have another purpose here, on FA. frankly, i should not give a damn about public relations - i'm a failure at them. 
it is just that seing this happen over and over again... without any purpose or profit from all those long-winded raging discussions... is not only a waste of time, but an unwanted event in general. 
it's not helping.. 


now regarding the bans...
---
you see, everyone has a freedom of speach. it is something that i believe noone should be taking away, ever. it's not like you are the person's mother or fiance to tell him what to do and what to say. you're not really in position to shut someone up, the forcefull way.
it's like taking away one's pride and self-confidence - all at once..  what would you do if you were a person at question? would you complain? most certainly. would you get perma-banned in this case? very pobable - because people are sometimes too lazy to properly investigate the reasoning behind the user's actions - or simply frustrated beyound any level to even think rationally. 
but in addition to the ban, that may be lifted the very next minutea - you are giving people something a lot more permanent - and that is a lable.  a label that will always be frowned upon, if not hated for. 
so ask yourself - do you feel so confident in your rightcheosness to brand someone a troll, just like that? what if you're wrong? wouldn't that fact sting you later? 

i find it highly.... arrogant (hope this is the correct word) to ban anyone. it's like cheating... trying to find an easy way to a seriuos problem. 

most of the times i found people that were banned to actually be helpfull. a lot more helpfull then the rest of the community folk. i don't want to get into names and events, just want to say that if you can find enough tolerance in you - you will probably find most of the former community-branded 'trolls' to be actually quite friendly and interesting people. not to mention them being helpfull, in their special, uncommon way.

[edit]
alas, i'm too late, as usual. thou i had full confidence that the thread would eventually be locked, i was hoping that at least i'd post in it before that happends.. oh well, i spent quite a time writig this (while waiting for the clog in MySQL to clear up), so here it goes.


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