# How do you people manage to do this?



## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm taking a Drawing I class at my college, and it's hard. It's hard, frustrating, and dull. 

I can draw a cube. I can draw a sphere. I can even, given enough time, draw things as complex as chairs and toaster ovens. But I can't draw WELL. My lines are not thin and lithe; they're thick and heavy and wander. The people in my class are taking this class and it could not be more obvious to me that not a one of them need to be in it; they can draw. I can't. 

And now, just now, I'm having to draw on pastel paper with vine charcoal, and it's infuriating. I mean, how? How do you even do such a thing? I can't for the life of me understand how you draw on a surface that has no grain to it. 

I'm guessing it comes down to technical ability; some are born with it, and most are not. I don't honestly believe you can improve your drawing ability through repetition.


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## TheKyleIsHere (Oct 8, 2009)

It is a tried and true method. I promise you that you'll get better, you just have you focus and work C:


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## Dior (Oct 8, 2009)

It takes years


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

Screw it; if I can't improve in a space of a month, I don't want to learn how to draw better.


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## TheKyleIsHere (Oct 8, 2009)

You'll show improvement, first slowly, but as you start to understand more, your improvements will become vast.

If my hard drive hadn't crashed a while back, I'd show you my art before I got any training. Let's just say it was not worth looking at.


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

I don't see myself and art being a good fit. I really don't. I'm not patient, I'm not thoughtful, and I don't like taking a long time doing anything. I want it done and over with as soon as possible. Art is nice to look at and analyze, but making it is just...tiresome. 

I wanted to take the course because it would help me with my degree, but no amount of credit is worth this amount of stress. I can't make my images as good as anyone else; they say what they make is horrible and, well, it's simply not true. 

I don't know what to do anymore. I'll have to drop the class, most likely; I don't have the time to sit around turning my hands black with charcoal.


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## TheKyleIsHere (Oct 8, 2009)

If speed is an issue, draw faster. I rarely spend more than 2 hours on anything that I do, I never really have.

Draw quick sketches in class, things will get easier, you'll be able to draw faster as time goes on. Don't give up when you've hardly started.


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## Arshes Nei (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> I don't see myself and art being a good fit. I really don't. I'm not patient, I'm not thoughtful, and I don't like taking a long time doing anything. I want it done and over with as soon as possible. Art is nice to look at and analyze, but making it is just...tiresome.
> 
> I wanted to take the course because it would help me with my degree, but no amount of credit is worth this amount of stress. I can't make my images as good as anyone else; they say what they make is horrible and, well, it's simply not true.
> 
> I don't know what to do anymore. I'll have to drop the class, most likely; I don't have the time to sit around turning my hands black with charcoal.



I'd say go through with it for a few reasons. You'll at least learn and develop more respect for people's time and money when working on this ...if you can't draw a simple cube.

It does help you relax at a certain point. You said you like analyzing it, analyze what you're doing. Skate the paper with your pencil to loosen and warm up for better lines.  If you look in that Critique thread about a message of inspiration you'll see how we're not unlike MindCandyMan when it comes to starting out. Some of us quit before we figure stuff out, others keep going. It's all up to you. 

I only stress when I have to make deadlines, I learned not to stress over the rest because you start realizing you gotta make a lot of crap studies before other stuff comes out decent.


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## Aurali (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> I'm guessing it comes down to technical ability; some are born with it



Ya know, this is one of the biggest issues I have with people, talent is just a word that describes someone who was able to pick up a trait faster than others.

If you want to get good, practice, study. There are no real short cuts. Yeah Alex, like Arshes said take the class. Those guys who draw in your class with you, they probably been drawing for years now, taking the class to get better.


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## BlackDragonAlpha (Oct 8, 2009)

Why don't you try drawing a bit lighter. Don't press too hard on the <insert drawing tool here> or you'll really make a mess. Maybe you could practice drawing straight and curved lines. 

It'll be somewhat hard if your hand slightly shakes every time it hold unto something, like mine.


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

It's very hard to draw lightly with vine charcoal, at least for me. They're cylindrical vines; there's no small pointed end with which to draw thin lines. Even when I draw with charcoal pencils, the result is the same; fat, thick, wandering lines that go messily wherever they damn well choose. I don't have a steady hand, I'll admit that freely.

As for speed, well, I can draw draw outlines quickly, but our instructor doesn't want outlines, she wants fully done images, shaded and the whole nine yards.

I'll take a picture of this latest image I've been working on (I spent three hours last night working on it and it still looks like a ton of shit) and post it in this thread and you'll see what I mean.


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## TheKyleIsHere (Oct 8, 2009)

Please do.


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

Here's the image of the chair I drew. I'm sure it's nowhere near what she wanted us to do, but hey, at least it's something; I'll at least get a grade, albeit not a very good one.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/wackyfox/My drawings/DSC00681.jpg


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## Aurali (Oct 8, 2009)

It's not that bad. As sad before, practicing will slowly improve you


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## TheKyleIsHere (Oct 8, 2009)

I was doing just the same when I first started at art school.

Try toning your page first with your chracoal (laying it flat and spreading the charcoal around to get a nice even coat) You'll be able to use the vine charcoal, or even the compressed charcoal for the darks, while using an eraser to bring out the lights. Try to take your time in class and really carefully place your marks, so as not to create a mess on the page.


Have you actually talked to your teacher about the troubles your'e having?


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## Dyluck (Oct 8, 2009)

Just going off what you've said so far, it sounds to me like you've got a pretty awful instructor.  Have they even taught you about gesture? :\

If your lines feel too dark, try using a harder type of vine charcoal.  Also, try not holding your drawing tool like you would a pencil, but rather loosely between your thumb and forefinger, or as an extension of your forefinger.  If you want a pointed edge with the vine, just rub off the edge of it until it becomes a smooth angle.


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## Arshes Nei (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> Here's the image of the chair I drew. I'm sure it's nowhere near what she wanted us to do, but hey, at least it's something; I'll at least get a grade, albeit not a very good one.
> 
> http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/wackyfox/My drawings/DSC00681.jpg



Yeah, about instructors, this is one of the reasons I learned you can be an artist without one. Now, saying that...it doesn't mean art teachers are bad. When you find good ones, it can help nurture a passion you might have not had otherwise. They give you the epiphany you need. If you do have a passion for art though, you'll do any means necessary to learn the craft.

So how does that relate to you? Don't just go by what the instructor says...if you want to get better with charcoal, go out and find some books. Don't worry about buying them...I have found local libraries often carry more traditional media books because people have switched to digital. The teachers also have their own preference and methods of using charcoal and it may or may not be right for you, but do try talking with the teacher outside of just class....the more you show interest in learning, I've found most instructors are willing to help you out more.

It also doesn't hurt to do a google search. 

I have 2 books on Charcoal, one was because I love figure drawing. The other gave me more insight on how to use charcoal.  

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Drawing-Charcoal-Douglas-Graves/dp/0486282686 (nudity) Good book on learning the techniques of charcoal

And my favorite is Henry Yan (nudity)

http://www.henryyanart.com 
http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Yans-Figure-Drawing-Techniques/dp/1427610231

From what it sounds like, your teacher is trying to to get you to understand mass drawing vs line. Both are forms of drawing by the way. Besides, painting, mass is more of something you notice in Eastern cultures, like those ink wash paintings. 

Because you're working on a large surface, an eraser is going to take time and get messy, I'd also advise getting a chamois cloth or those lady makeup powder puffs (go to the 99 cent store if you see the prices too expensive) 

The puff is for blending. You can also save the charcoal dust and use it to blend back in since you sharpen the sticks with sandpaper. 

I have done charcoal drawing but I'm sensitive to the dust, so I can't do it as much lol

Also, do use youtube to your advantage. I know that reading isn't the same as seeing how it is done. 

More Charcoal info: http://drawsketch.about.com/od/charcoal/Drawing_With_Charcoal.htm


As Kyle mentioned, you want to tone all of the paper first (Toning is coloring the entire paper with charcoal). Dust off areas or blend them with the puff. Then work back in the darks...use the eraser puff or even a bristle brush to get rid of the excess.


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## Stratelier (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> I don't honestly believe you can improve your drawing ability through repetition.



Repetition = experience.  That's why it gets better with time.

Perhaps the bigger issue is the _passion_, the inspiration to actually go out and DO art stuff, results-be-damned.  And be wary of over-criticizing yourself....



AlexInsane said:


> I don't have a steady hand, I'll admit that freely.


You should see my inking, I don't have much of a steady hand either.


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

The instructor is quite nice, she's very patient and understanding. She'll gladly help you with whatever you need.

I've never heard of gesture before. What is it? Is it the position you place your body at relative to the easel?


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## Dyluck (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> The instructor is quite nice, she's very patient and understanding. She'll gladly help you with whatever you need.
> 
> I've never heard of gesture before. What is it? Is it the position you place your body at relative to the easel?



No, it's a method of quickly drawing to capture the essence of your subject matter.  It's kind of a big deal.


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## krisCrash (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> I'm guessing it comes down to technical ability; some are born with it, and most are not.


Everyone is born with the ability to breath, suck milk and poop
the rest is earned through working on it

I don't care what you think, but "talented" artists probably just really liked drawing and drew it a lot and got ahead.

You are clearly suffering from "learned helplessness". You think that if you fail once it means all is hopeless. You think your situation is incurable so you stop trying to cure it, you _learned_ it is so from bad experiences. You think success is due to dumb luck ("talent") and cannot be controlled. You FEEL out of control. Yet you have the same potential as everyone else. TL;DR Finish the god-damned class and give yourself some good drawing experiences to encourage yourself.


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> No, it's a method of quickly drawing to capture the essence of your subject matter.  It's kind of a big deal.



Dude, we're Drawing I. It's a beginner level class. You want to go into the psychology and philosophy of art, you'll probably want some other class.

We're just learning to put down charcoal on paper in shapes that mimic the real subject.


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## Arshes Nei (Oct 8, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> Dude, we're Drawing I. It's a beginner level class. You want to go into the psychology and philosophy of art, you'll probably want some other class.
> 
> We're just learning to put down charcoal on paper in shapes that mimic the real subject.



2nd part of your post is pretty much what gesture is. It's not exactly accuracy either, but it does help when you know the proportions of the object so it's not ridiculously out of scale.

http://www.mmwindowtoart.com/gesturedrawing.html


Has she showed you how to make value charts by the way? It's helpful to have one so you can decide where are your darkest parts re. the object you're drawing.


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## AlexInsane (Oct 8, 2009)

No, I haven't heard any mention of value charts either.

She doesn't use a lot of technical terms. She usually gives us a visual demonstration and lets us work out the rest on our own. If we need help, she'll come over and tell us what we need to do.


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## Donryu (Oct 9, 2009)

Well to be honest man...

It takes years.  It's not just understanding the technical ability, but understanding that the more you draw, the better you get..  I fill sketchbooks on a bi monthly basis drawing animals, people, gestures, figure drawing, story boards, praciticing different styles, angles, shading, etc etc etc... and it's all because I know that if I consistantly put myself through all this rigorous training, that maybe, at some point, my work will pay off and look great. 

Then again I've had my big bro to look up to my entire life, ( http://kuroitora.deviantart.com )  I've been lucky to understand at an early age, very very clearly that there will ALWAYS be someone more experienced, seasoned, and better than you in some way shape or form.  Which is a great way to strive.  Understanding that there is a constant mountain to climb which you will never reach the top, but the journey there is a wonderful experience regardless.

letting that philosophy shape you for the better will enable you to become a better artist in no matter what field you enter..

ka-ramble.


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## Takun (Oct 9, 2009)

IIRC Exto only started drawing about two years ago Alex.

A year ago: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1032480/
Recent      : http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2619788

Ask to see older stuff by him.  He is really a great example of sitting down and learning how to draw if you are serious about it.


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## Stratelier (Oct 9, 2009)

Emphasis mine:


Donryu said:


> Well to be honest man...
> 
> It takes YEARS.



But back on topic....

I took three years of art classes in high school.  We started every day with a 5-minute warm-up sketch (either themed or freeform), and while there were occasional lectures and slide-shows about the grand old history of 'art' with a capital A, most of my memories were about the projects we did in class.  Again, sometimes themed, sometimes freeform.

I averaged A's and B's on the in-class projects, but C's for the class overall.  Why?  I couldn't be bothered to do much with my sketchbook assignments.  Even art class had the ol' "homework" stigma to it....

In retrospect -- I could doodle and sketch freely and imaginatively on just about any paper surface handed to me (as the small "planner" sketchbooks the school gave us the first weeks could certainly attest!) and I did have a definite theme when doing so . . . but the _sketch book_?  No way!  Maybe it was a little bit of teenage rebellion, maybe it was that the sketchbook was not quite so "private" a thing knowing the teacher would be frequently reviewing it.  Even though he was one of my three favorite teachers in the school.  So . . . bah, my train of thought just ran out of fuel.


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## Dyluck (Oct 9, 2009)

AlexInsane said:


> Dude, we're Drawing I. It's a beginner level class. You want to go into the psychology and philosophy of art, you'll probably want some other class.
> 
> We're just learning to put down charcoal on paper in shapes that mimic the real subject.



Gesture is the first thing that you should be taught in Drawing I.  It's not psychology or philosophy, it's just a drawing technique.


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## Raineyangel81 (Oct 13, 2009)

It was disconcerting in high school to be in an art class where the people on either side of me were obviously much better than I was.  They could do everything, but what I found was hardest for them and easier for me was changing style and learning a new technique.  I found that artists that are natural at a certain style, tend to not be able to change and learn something new.  But that was why they were in art class after all, to learn and to grow.
Me on the other hand, I have random spurts of creativity and can usually crank something out that's really good one day and then the next, I have nothing.  But try, try try again and maybe succeed


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## TopazThunder (Oct 13, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> Gesture is the first thing that you should be taught in Drawing I.  It's not psychology or philosophy, it's just a drawing technique.



I'm actually kind of surprised that more art classes (especially beginning ones) don't do more on this subject; it certainly would help me (and others) immensely. I mean, that one remedial drawing class I was forced to take back in high school only barely (and I mean barely as in only one or two class sessions) touched gesture drawing.


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## Dyluck (Oct 13, 2009)

Clafier said:


> I'm actually kind of surprised that more art classes (especially beginning ones) don't do more on this subject; it certainly would help me (and others) immensely. I mean, that one remedial drawing class I was forced to take back in high school only barely (and I mean barely as in only one or two class sessions) touched gesture drawing.



My drawing I class spent an entire quarter of the semester just on gesture. :b  And then in drawing II we spent the first week going over it again.  And we have to do gestures every day in life drawing :T


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## TopazThunder (Oct 14, 2009)

David M. Awesome said:


> My drawing I class spent an entire quarter of the semester just on gesture. :b  And then in drawing II we spent the first week going over it again.  And we have to do gestures every day in life drawing :T



Lucky you then, lol. But then again, I've only taken one semester of serious art class in my life.... :/


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## sakket (Oct 14, 2009)

if you arent having fun then it sucks. so draw silly things instead.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Oct 16, 2009)

Yep, it takes years and literally thousands of drawings to improve.  The one thing you don't see is all the doodles artists do as practice.  I know I doodle a lot when I'm not drawing seriously.

Just keep at it and keep practicing.  Speed sketching helps.


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## Stratelier (Oct 16, 2009)

Sturgeon's Law applies, too:  You're going to have a ratio of at least ten crappy sketches to every polished work.


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## krisCrash (Oct 16, 2009)

But probably 200. If I am any indication


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## Chukkz (Oct 19, 2009)

The big question for such a situation should be: Why do I draw?

I do draw because its fun to me, do not get me wrong, art can be painful to do when it drags. But having something created just feels good. The ability to bring something from your mind onto paper feels good. I'd be an awful professional artist because I lack the patience to draw spheres (and only spheres) over and over, I learned what I know by simply doodling. Time gives practice and practice makes perfect. Its not the best method to learn but at least it preserves the fun for me. If something kills the fun I'd be demotivated pretty soon.

There are many ways to skin a cat. So do not give up.  

(No animals were hurt in the making of this post)


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## RedHeron (Oct 22, 2009)

Oh god I love charcoal and getting all dirty, and the squeaky noise makes shivers happen. <3333

Just keep at it. Don't give up! O: *pom poms*


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## picky (Oct 22, 2009)

you said you weren't having fun? don't worry, I don't have fun in those classes either. I've taken a few of them, and it's all the same stuff to me. while it does help you improve, I find myself stressed the day they give homework. drawing a paper bag? that's not _fun_ to me, but it helps to understand basic shapes, shades, etc.

do you doodle in your free time? don't try and make anything extravagant -- just sketch. just 5 minute drawings, at the most. it can be something you see, or something you made up.
when I was taking those classes it relieved so much stress to just sit down and sketch w/e came to mind.

I know you're frustrated, but if you rly want to draw then keep taking the class. trust me, it's worth it.

have you told your instructor how you feel?


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## KyoOyo (Oct 29, 2009)

try holding the piece of vine charcoal at the end with just the tips of your fingers not like you would hold a pencil


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