# Is Christianity good or evil?



## Telnac (Mar 16, 2019)

Rather than turning this good thread ( forums.furaffinity.net: What is Good and Evil) into a dumpster fire, I'm asking those who want to challenge the assertion that Christianity is a viable foundation for one's moral code to post here. 

Let's try to keep it civil. It's one thing to call God evil or Christianity evil but please refrain from maligning each other.

Ok, gasoline poured... who wants to throw the first match?


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## Fallowfox (Mar 16, 2019)

What people consider to be the moral tenets of Christianity are seemingly just as varied as people's views on Good and Evil anyway.


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## foussiremix (Mar 16, 2019)

Depends on the people living it.
Some people view stuff written in the bible as this and some as that.
There are people tho who use religion to excuse their bad behavior.
Its not the religion itself

Its the person themselfes


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## Telnac (Mar 16, 2019)

foussiremix said:


> Depends on the people living it.
> Some people view stuff written as this and some as that.
> Their are people tho who use religion to excuse their bad behavior.
> Its not the religion itself
> ...


Agreed. Sadly, I can't deny that great evil has been done in the name of Christ throughout history. But I blame those who twist the words of the Bible to do evil and not God or Christianity.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 16, 2019)

foussiremix said:


> Depends on the people living it.
> Some people view stuff written in the bible as this and some as that.
> There are people tho who use religion to excuse their bad behavior.
> Its not the religion itself
> ...



So maybe you have to already have a good internal sense of what good and evil are before you can use a holy text to represent that intuitive feeling in a frame work that works for you.


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## CertifiedCervine (Mar 16, 2019)

As a christian, I find the main concept / values of trying to be christlike (Kind, Loving, Etc...) a good thing, though sometimes other branches/people have changed or altered the use of christianity (or other religions) as a way to put others down, I find that an evil thing.
(Blame the follower, not the religion)


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## Infrarednexus (Mar 16, 2019)

I see it for it's good qualities and positive influences on the world, and it has many I could list. Most Christians are indeed altruistic and kind from my experience, and the religion itself has inspired me to be a better person.

It has it's flaws, but that is not unique to the Christian faith by any means.


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## Sagt (Mar 16, 2019)

To the title of the thread: Neither.

(I'm not sure if I really believe in good or evil in the way you describe it anyway, but I think I'd still say neither regardless.)



Telnac said:


> ...I'm asking those who want to challenge the assertion that Christianity is a viable foundation for one's moral code...


The title of this thread doesn't necessarily represent this assertion that you're trying to get people to challenge, I feel like. The way you designed this thread might lead to some confusion.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything inherently about Christianity that makes it not a viable foundation for one's moral code (as long as its scriptures aren't used too literally, in some cases), but I think there are some subsets of Christians (like all religions) that use their religion as a reason to do shitty things.


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## ManicTherapsid (Mar 16, 2019)

foussiremix said:


> Depends on the people living it.
> Some people view stuff written in the bible as this and some as that.
> There are people tho who use religion to excuse their bad behavior.
> Its not the religion itself
> ...



I'd have to agree.


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## Minerva_Minx (Mar 16, 2019)

It is and it isnt.

Taken as a whole, holy crap (pun intended).  Stone people for wearing two kinds of threads (nylon, rayon, polyester, cotton - or typical under armor), slavery, prostitution of women, etc - i havent even touched on the Books of Law - yup, all good.  New Testament, love, honor, obey.  Awesome.  Then you get to women preaching and, damn, it goes off the rails.  Seriously, get into it as a mythology and wow.  An entire segment, the Apocrypha, was actually removed.  Seriously.

Now, Catholicism wasnt exactly the best for it, either.  Then again, Islam attempted a course correction on it.  What, what?!  Yeah, theres a pickle.  Until it also went to a source of political power, but thats another subject. 

Final thought, yeah, it’s good as a moral guide as long as we practice what we preach, which is to say hell yeah (pun intended) its awesome, as long as we continue to pick and choose what is important and relevant.


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## Telnac (Mar 16, 2019)

Lcs said:


> To the title of the thread: Neither.
> 
> (I'm not sure if I really believe in good or evil in the way you describe it anyway, but I think I'd still say neither regardless.)
> 
> ...


Yeah I admit the title is a bit click-baity. I just know that by expressing my religious beliefs in the other thread, someone would come along and say something along the lines of "Christianity is evil and you're evil for believing in it." Then... BAM... instant dumpster fire. I'd rather that dumpster fire happen here than to derail that other thread.


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## CrookedCroc (Mar 16, 2019)

I might not be a really religious person but I appreciate the the message that Christianity and Catholicism try to spread: be the best you can be and help your fellow man.

Sure, these organizations might have a bad history (specially catholicism) but I really feel like people benefit more from them than getting harm by it.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Mar 16, 2019)

It's evil.


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## Infrarednexus (Mar 16, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Yeah I admit the title is a bit click-baity. I just know that by expressing my religious beliefs in the other thread, someone would come along and say something along the lines of "Christianity is evil and you're evil for believing in it." Then... BAM... instant dumpster fire. I'd rather that dumpster fire happen here than to derail that other thread.


So you gave people who want spread hateful remarks about Christianity a thread to do it in freely,




Rimna said:


> It's evil.


Such as this?


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## KimberVaile (Mar 16, 2019)

Depends on the person practicing it.


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## Deleted member 111470 (Mar 16, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> Such as this?



Christianity has had people killed in the past and it still does affect lives today. Where I live, people are incredibly religious, and consider it an abomination if a man loves another man, or if a woman loves another woman. They'd not mind it at all if gay people were to be executed.  In fact, the majority of the population would likely sing and dance in revelry, just as they did when our government declined the "Istanbul Convention".

And so some book, written 2000+ years ago by dozens of people, determines the worth of someone's life. 

No thanks.


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## Simo (Mar 16, 2019)

I'll have to admit: I'm dismayed at how the title of this thread is phrased: by parsing it as *good or evil*, *either/or*, I think it lays a kind of trap, and on a site that's seen one too many dumpster fires.

I'll refrain from commenting on anything else, but I'll have to say, given the title, and then adding, even if jokingly,"Ok, gasoline poured... who wants to throw the first match?" strikes me as unnecessarily provocative and divisive, even disrespectful of the users of this forum.


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## Telnac (Mar 16, 2019)

Minerva_Minx said:


> It is and it isnt.
> 
> Taken as a whole, holy crap (pun intended).  Stone people for wearing two kinds of threads (nylon, rayon, polyester, cotton - or typical under armor), slavery, prostitution of women, etc - i havent even touched on the Books of Law - yup, all good.  New Testament, love, honor, obey.  Awesome.  Then you get to women preaching and, damn, it goes off the rails.  Seriously, get into it as a mythology and wow.  An entire segment, the Apocrypha, was actually removed.  Seriously.
> 
> ...


Well, the Law needs to be understood in the context of what it is, and isn't, and how it was meant to apply to Hebrews and Gentiles. Entire volumes of theology have been written on that alone! My interpretation is that the Levitical law mostly applied to the ways that the Jews and their priests were to worship God and many of those laws involved animal sacrifices. But Moses said that they were patterned after his vision of what was happening in Heaven. As a Christian I believe Jesus is the fulfillment of the Levitical law in that His blood was the ultimate sacrifice that makes all the other sacrifices unnecessary. The laws written in Deuteronomy are the Hebrew civil laws. As a Gentile I am under no obligation to those laws and yet they're worth examining nonetheless.

Slavery is something frequently used to justify the belief that the Bible is evil, but what the Bible says doesn't justify the sort of slavery that was inflicted on the Africans in the colonial era and in the USA prior to the Civil War. Every 75 years there is a Jubilee where all slaves, young and old, Hebrew and Gentile, are simultaneously freed. A slave may choose to remain a slave for live at that time but no master can force a slave to do so. People often sold themselves into slavery if they were destitute so that they could have a better life under a master than they can provide for themselves.

That's a far, far cry from the type of slavery that we're used to from more recent history and it's very different than the type of slavery practiced in other nations at the time too.

The Apocrypha and its origin is an interesting topic all on its own but the simple reality of it is that there were a whole lot of writings from the early Church and the need to compile them into the New Testament was paramount as Christianity went from a hidden and illegal faith practiced in whispers to the main religion for the Roman Empire. Some texts were deemed unreliable. Others were deemed outright heretical. Some were redundant. Ultimately, what texts were chosen were compiled into the New Testament and what wasn't was the Apocrypha. That doesn't make the Apocrypha evil... merely non-canonical. It's still worth studying if you're interested in the history of the early Church.

As for the Catholic Church... well, there's many good reasons I'm not Catholic!


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## Massan Otter (Mar 16, 2019)

The way question is phrased, it's hard to discuss without getting mired down in semantics.  It seems to me that in the West, Christianity has formed a large part of how we think about morality (whether by following it or in reacting to it), so it's going to be tied up with how we define those concepts of good and evil in the first place.


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## Simo (Mar 16, 2019)

Telnac said:


> As for the Catholic Church... well, there's many good reasons I'm not Catholic!



Huh, feels a bit like throwing stones, here.


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## Telnac (Mar 16, 2019)

Infrarednexus said:


> So you gave people who want spread hateful remarks about Christianity a thread to do it in freely,
> 
> 
> Such as this?


This thread is a relief valve, yes, but it's still subject to FAF's TOS. God can take a metaphorical punch to the face but let's leave attacks on each other out of the thread.


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## Telnac (Mar 16, 2019)

Simo said:


> Huh, feels a bit like throwing stones, here.


Not really. Just not fond of the Papacy.


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## Infrarednexus (Mar 16, 2019)

Telnac said:


> This thread is a relief valve, yes, but it's still subject to FAF's TOS. God can take a metaphorical punch to the face but let's leave attacks on each other out of the thread.


I apologize if I came off as aggressive. I didn't mean it to seem like an attack.


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## Peach's (Mar 16, 2019)

While I don't like Christianity, I think that overall it has had kind of a good impact on western society. Christianity is effectively the religion of the weak, the meek, ect, its the religion of idolizing the poor and the peasants. While this certainly can be distorted for other uses, this does mean that overall, a lot of people in society do not follow a strict competitive dog-eat-dog materialism. I am reminded of comments from Nietzsche that he hated Christianity for supporting the weak, and from the people that misinterpreted him (Fascists), I am kind of glad actually that the dominant religion is in at least some way in the poor man's corner, and that we don't live under a religion of domination and supremacy. 

There are certainly some more revolutionary bends you can take Christianity also, see Liberation Theology, so there is that.

I will leave y'all with this song


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## Sarachaga (Mar 16, 2019)

Neither nor. I think that an individual's interpretation could make it sway one way or the other.
I've met altruistic, down to earth christians, as well as the overly religiously conservative, tries-to-tell-you what's best kind.
I'm fairly neutral on the topic of religion. Let people practice what they want as long as they don't hurt each other.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 16, 2019)

I'd argue people project their views of morality onto gods as an anthropomorphization of "good", and thus it is the faithful who are good or evil rather than the faith.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 16, 2019)

<-- Atheist

Quite frankly I would say neither. It's just another ideology/religion like Buddhism, Islam, etc. 

It's all about the people practicing it as opposed to the belief system itself.


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## Aznig (Mar 16, 2019)

Same response as the other thread. If you’re not hurting, taking advantage of, or being cruel to anyone - it’s okay in my book. It all comes down to the individual. I don’t think any religion is inherently immoral lest it is entirely based on the idea of harming other beings.


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## Jackpot Raccuki (Mar 16, 2019)

I do not enforce atheism on others and I'd expect them not to force their religion on others.
I'll admit, I do get curious when people say the stupidest stuff of "Oh, that's bad in my religion" like, excuse me where did I ask for your religion's opinion?

But really, it's not excuse of any poor behavior nor should it be enforced upon people.
Just like how me being an atheist isn't an excuse to attempt any form of violence or really give a damn about their religion, if I'm curious, I'll ask but don't shove it in my throat.


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## Doulyboy (Mar 16, 2019)

The trouble now is that it's increasing being used as an excuse for white nationalism and hate, which can and does turn violent.

This has been ever increasing in scope since Donald Trump took office.
I believe it's prudent to stay mindful of such, and not be blind to intolerance within the faith.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 16, 2019)

Doulyboy said:


> The trouble now is that it's increasing being used as an excuse for white nationalism and hate, which can and does turn violent.
> 
> This has been ever increasing in scope since Donald Trump took office.
> I believe it's prudent to stay mindful of such, and not be blind to intolerance within the faith.


Liberal church goers have a lot of opinions about the man, oft involving a list of sins. 

Religion can be and has been historically  used as a means of control, so it's important to be cognizant of that as a person of faith.


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## BackPaw (Mar 16, 2019)

A religion, any religion, is merely a mirror to the person who follows it.  If they are a good person they will take the good from the religion and reinforce their own good.  Unfortunately if they are a crappy person they will use the religion to amplify their crappiness.

The religion itself is not responsible for either really.  It’s just a concept to be wielded.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 16, 2019)

Misha Bordiga Zahradník said:


> I'd argue people project their views of morality onto gods as an anthropomorphization of "good", and thus it is the faithful who are good or evil rather than the faith.



God is an attempt at bootstrapping an argument of moral authority. x3


One of the things that gets me about it though is, if there was a God, that wouldn't mean that all of their moral viewpoints- if they even had any- would automatically be correct.


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## Ramjet (Mar 16, 2019)

Meh....
Practice what you want, as long as your not hurting anyone.

Just don't shove it down my throat.


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## LeaDev (Mar 16, 2019)

It depends how it's giving to you.
If it's like one lad who preaches it a lot to you and your slowly get consumed, then it's BAD.
However, if you don't get you mind preached by it 24/7 and is more there in the background, then it's good.

It REALLY depends what type of people surrounds it (,from personal experience,) and what is your belief.


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## Cyroo (Mar 17, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Rather than turning this good thread ( forums.furaffinity.net: What is Good and Evil) into a dumpster fire, I'm asking those who want to challenge the assertion that Christianity is a viable foundation for one's moral code to post here.
> 
> Let's try to keep it civil. It's one thing to call God evil or Christianity evil but please refrain from maligning each other.
> 
> Ok, gasoline poured... who wants to throw the first match?



It's always Christianity. How come none of you ever criticize Islam or Judaism? Then you can be really edgy! And not boring like every other cushioned westerner.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

Well it's a matter of opinion. But i would say definitely not evil.

If you have ever been to a church or around Christians they are pretty kind, friendly, and charitable. I don't see how anyone could consider Christians evil.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> It's always Christianity. How come none of you ever criticize Islam or Judaism? Then you can be really edgy! And not boring like every other cushioned westerner.



I don't think it is much of a coincidence that of all the religions, the historically Christian countries spawned the most accepting and tolerant civilizations.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

I will have to make an atheism/theism thread sometime because I find it so difficult to believe there is no God, given how arbitrary the laws of the universe are.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 17, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I don't think it is much of a coincidence that of all the religions, the historically Christian countries spawned the most accepting and tolerant civilizations.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> It's always Christianity. How come none of you ever criticize Islam or Judaism? Then you can be really edgy! And not boring like every other cushioned westerner.



I think there are two reasons; most of us live in countries which are transitioning from social structures that privileged the Christian religion over other points of view, into secular societies. 
I remember a time when people like me weren't allowed to marry, because of opposition to that notion from my country's national church. To give that church credit, while they still refuse to marry someone like me, they are at least petitioning the government to ban other churches from starving or exorcising gay people in an attempt to 'cure' us, because they recognise that's _too far_.   

The second reason is that those people who do criticise Islam or Judaism often turn out to be jerks who are just looking for an excuse to accuse people they view as outsiders of being primitive. That seriously puts other people off.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 17, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I don't think it is much of a coincidence that of all the religions, the historically Christian countries spawned the most accepting and tolerant civilizations.


Phineas Brotherhood and Westboro Baptist Church being the total paragons of christian values in the United States.... /snark /sarcasm /joke (Seriously though all religions and ideologies have extremists that take those beliefs twist it to fit their own selfish desires damn the consequences of their actions and their impact on the image of their fellow believers.)


Fallowfox said:


> I think there are two reasons; most of us live in countries which are transitioning from social structures that privileged the Christian religion over other points of view, into secular societies.
> I remember a time when people like me weren't allowed to marry, because of opposition to that notion from my country's national church. To give that church credit, while they still refuse to marry someone like me, they are at least petitioning the government to ban other churches from starving or exorcising gay people in an attempt to 'cure' us, because they recognise that's _too far_.
> 
> The second reason is that those people who do criticise Islam or Judaism often turn out to be jerks who are just looking for an excuse to accuse people they view as outsiders of being primitive. That seriously puts other people off.


Oh I do agree with you as a whole and like I said above it is a shame that all it takes sometimes is a few rotten apples to spoil the whole entire batch.


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## HistoricalyIncorrect (Mar 17, 2019)

Religion as the religion, it has got it's good and bad sides like every other one. It is there for one reason mainly, to give a person hope in dark times but it is also created such a way (like every other one) that it has to be interpreted which can be achieved with both good and disastrous effects. Religion as itself? As a freshly converted from Catholicism, I still respect this religion and faith but my respect to the church was so low... that I got converted back to origins. One repeating thing in it is simple, be a good person but here is the hook. Many people so to say, wipe their asses with the bible which was written a long time ago but wasn't modernized until today which allows many to use bible quotes as an excuse for themselves.

In conclusion. I do not find the Christianity(not the wing that I am familiar with) as evil because as I said it has to be openly interpreted which will vary from person to person. Devoting your absolute life to the religion is evil though... just look around and you will see fine examples


P.S - Not connected to the subject, I personally suggest to avoid topics like these on a furry webpages


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2019)

HistoricalyIncorrect said:


> P.S - Not connected to the subject, I personally suggest to avoid topics like these on a furry webpages



Amazingly people have been pretty congenial so far!


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## goldcatmask (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm atheist but i grew up in a Christian home so my stance is Christianity is whatever you make of it. There are people who use it for good and there are people who use it for evil, so really its all in what you do with it. I have met plenty of Christians both good and bad.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 17, 2019)

Christianity is very good overall; and so are the majority of the people within it... and the good people far outweigh the few bad apples, on the extremes.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2019)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Christianity is very good overall; and so are the majority of the people within it... and the good people far outweigh the few bad apples, on the extremes.



I think I would describe it as neutral overall, verging towards 'not relevant'. 

When I witness discussions on taxation here for example, I'm often surprised to see people who are nominally Christian, or who speak volumes of praise _for_ Christian values, advocating selfish economic ideas that are- in my view- completely incompatible with the views that Jesus espoused. 

So I'm not sure to what extend religious belonging actually changes the moral perspectives people bring to the table. Maybe not much at all?


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## dragon-in-sight (Mar 17, 2019)

Christianity is no more good or evil than any other Human religion or social construct. It's a philosophy that gives people hope, and makes them feel if there was someone out there who would care for them. Even if this someone is just a farouche celestial beeing which is not tangible in everyday life. People always sought something to give their life meaning and direction. But insted of seeking these things for themselves they call for a strong men to lead their way. This made them vulnerable to many kinds of manipulators and hate preachers, twisting the former gosple into an empty abomination of Dogmas. In the end it's not a religion or belive which is destructive. It's man who use religion to gain secular power, influence and wealth on the fears of the faint hearted. A true god doesn't claim worship. He doesn't judge or condemn. He doesn't seek to outcast the strangers or monger war agaist unbelivers. Only man does so.

In the end there is no such thing like good and evil just goals, deeds and consequences.


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## Liseran Thistle (Mar 17, 2019)

Christianity in and of itself isn't evil, it's just the people who believe in it who corrupt its values. I was raised in a christian home, but I haven't identified as a christian in years, mainly because there will always be christians who will cherry pick verses they like out of the bible. The thing that made me stop being a christian was when we first started hearing stories of bakeries turning people away because they didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding, because it was "Against their religion". Firstly, making a cake for a gay person isn't against anyone's religion, and secondly how dare you try to use Jesus' words that way? Jesus would have never done something as disgusting as that, he hung out with the people society looked down on most because he was literally the only person alive then who could see the good in everybody regadless of their background. Jesus wouldn't give a shit if people were gay or if they were straight.

It boils my blood to see anti-gay rallies and signs that says "God hats F*gs" because that's literally using God's name in vain. Like you're are literally taking his name and using it for your own shitty beliefs. Some religions believe that humans don't even have the right to _say_ God's name, let alone put it on a sign that says he hates a certain facet of people. What makes people think that they are so important that they have any right to even put his name on a sign like that? 

I stopped being a christian because too many bad people were calling themselves that, and were expecting me to stand along side them. I believe in God and whatnot, but to call myself a christian nowadays is a little too much, especially when doing so means people will lump me in with the westboro baptist church and shit. The anti-gay rallies and shit were always something that made me mad, not just because I am a gay woman, but because these people are using Jesus' name to opress people, and right after he had the heart to die on a cross for all of them too.


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## Toby_Morpheus (Mar 17, 2019)

I find that Abrahamic religions in general are fairly negative according to their books.
There are passages in all their books that are plainly barbaric by today's standards.
The 'good' members of these religions end up not listening to parts of their respective books, relegating them to the past with whatever excuse. (Times were different back then, etc) though it's clear that God doesn't change and is OK with things like slavery.

End of the day, it comes down to each individual person. Their own personality dictates how they will view their religion, which is why you get so many different variations of the same thing. There are literally THOUSANDS of different kinds of Christianity, for instance, and they all think they have the right interpretation.

Just keep it away from me, whichever form it takes.


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## BackPaw (Mar 17, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I don't think it is much of a coincidence that of all the religions, the historically Christian countries spawned the most accepting and tolerant civilizations.


I would put that down to first the Reformation and secondly the Enlightenment rather than Christianity TBH.  Plus let’s not forget that many more tolerant and peaceful societies had Animist doctrine at their heart, North American Native nations for example.


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## Faexie (Mar 17, 2019)

I'd say christianity in itself is neither good or bad, like any religion.

The way I see it, to be a christian you just have to believe a unique God exist (the judeo-christian god is described in so many different, contradictory ways though, so any version counts) and to follow the teachings of Jesus more than tbose of any prophets (muslims follow the teachings of Jesus too, but their religion is not built around him)

Wether you believe that the bible is the word of God or that it's just some old book written by ancient men, wether you believe that the bible is to be taken litterally or are just allegories, etc. is irrelevant to wether you're a christian or not.

Like with any other religion, it can be used to manipulate others or to justify harmful behavior. Any ideology where doubt is forbidden or frowned upon is dangerous mainly for this reason, hence why I don't like how faith (the absence of doubt despite lack of evidence or presence of contradicting evidence) is put on a pedestal.

However, there are some good things coming from christianity, and I know plenty of nice and reasonable christians.

I'd say that christianity and other religions are more neutral: it can bring good things, but it can also be used for evil.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 17, 2019)

Since everyone is biting the bait, it's perhaps a good time to mention the book _Guns, Germs, and Steel _exists, and has explained technological development due to natural resource distribution, trade routes, and military conflict. It's also worth noting that abrahamic faiths only became so prolific through conquests, either inspired by or justified using the faith.

Religion anthropomorphizes our morals, and the morals of past millennia show in the more vengeful and violent passages of abrahamic texts. Christendom and its peers were once justification for conquest unto themselves.

For most of us this is no longer the case. Some people clearly aren't caught up with the enlightenment yet.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

BackPaw said:


> I would put that down to first the Reformation and secondly the Enlightenment rather than Christianity TBH.  Plus let’s not forget that many more tolerant and peaceful societies had Animist doctrine at their heart, North American Native nations for example.


I would argue that christianity played an important role in the enlightenment


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

If we are to trying to decide of christianity is 'evil' or makes sense to look at the actual ten commandments (basically the rules God gave us) 

home.snu.edu: To memorize: Ten Commandments

Not a complete list of Christian belief but it is a good starting point if we want to look at it objectively. I don't think anyone would mistake these for a list of 'evil' commandments.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2019)

Nobody here is convinced that Christianity is evil. So you don't _need_ to persuade us that he ten commandments are not a manifesto for evil.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

Oh then it looks like we have reached an agreement! Conversation concluded, Christianity is good.


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## Faexie (Mar 17, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Oh then it looks like we have reached an agreement! Conversation concluded, Christianity is good.


Well not exactly. There are some good parts in the bible like the 10 commandments, but there are some awful parts too, as well as some silly ones.

The religion has brought good and bad things in this world, and has good and bad messages.

Since the only common thing between every christians is the belief in God and the following of Jesus (some christians see the bible as just something written by dudes 1000 years ago, not really the word of God, so I will exclude the belief in the bible as a prerequisite for christianity). I'd say christianity in its most basic form is pretty neutral, maybe leaning a bit towards good. Wether it's good or evil depends on those practicing it.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 17, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> Wether it's good or evil depends on those practicing it.


Every system of beliefs has the possibility it can be used in a corrupt way.


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## BackPaw (Mar 17, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> If we are to trying to decide of christianity is 'evil' or makes sense to look at the actual ten commandments (basically the rules God gave us)
> 
> home.snu.edu: To memorize: Ten Commandments
> 
> Not a complete list of Christian belief but it is a good starting point if we want to look at it objectively. I don't think anyone would mistake these for a list of 'evil' commandments.


Just a reminder that the 10 Commandments were never given to Christians.  They sort of....erm....stole them....

Oops.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 17, 2019)

BackPaw said:


> Just a reminder that the 10 Commandments were never given to Christians.  They sort of....erm....stole them....
> 
> Oops.



Hey, 'thou shalt not plagiarise' isn't on the list. ;3 

I guess pretty much all religions are amalgamations of various religions that came before them. If you go back far enough actually Judaism turns into a polytheistic religion with goddesses, doesn't it? I think some of the gods and goddesses may even be borrowed from the Phoenicians, including possibly the one who becomes Ywh.


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## Filter (Mar 17, 2019)

If you're referring to the organized religion, my answer depends on the individuals. If you're referring to Jesus, my answer is good.


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## Cyroo (Mar 18, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I think there are two reasons; most of us live in countries which are transitioning from social structures that privileged the Christian religion over other points of view, into secular societies.
> I remember a time when people like me weren't allowed to marry, because of opposition to that notion from my country's national church. To give that church credit, while they still refuse to marry someone like me, they are at least petitioning the government to ban other churches from starving or exorcising gay people in an attempt to 'cure' us, because they recognise that's _too far_.
> 
> The second reason is that those people who do criticise Islam or Judaism often turn out to be jerks who are just looking for an excuse to accuse people they view as outsiders of being primitive. That seriously puts other people off.



It's simply because it's trendy and people are sheep and need to fit in no matter what.

Baa. Baaaa.


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## Cyroo (Mar 18, 2019)

BackPaw said:


> Just a reminder that the 10 Commandments were never given to Christians.  They sort of....erm....stole them....
> 
> Oops.



Abrahamic religions are all rip offs of Zoroastrianism.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 18, 2019)

Like everything else, religion is neither good or evil; it just is. It's the person using it that determines whether it is or not.


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## Faexie (Mar 18, 2019)

Cyroo said:


> Abrahamic religions are all rip offs of Zoroastrianism.


 Jesus' story is copied from an egyptian story, that is copied from a mesopotamian one. The parts about being born from a virgin, walking on water, having 12 apostles and being betrayed by one of them... none of it is original


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## FuzzleTheMintyDog (Mar 18, 2019)

*I'm a Christian, tell me how good or evil I am. I believe God saved my soul and what I want is others to be saved too. I believe in personal freedom and that the life you live is a choice. God keeps me constantly checking myself to see how I'm doing wrong or if I'm doing right. We do an awful lot of looking at bad people and making loose connections to try and take other things down with them, we rarely look at a bad person and keep the blame there. What does my religion command me to do? What I as an individual accept, which is not to murder, not to steal, not to lie, not to cheat, not to be selfish, not to cause harm and to accept the gift of salvation I don't deserve and can't earn with good deeds or a nice performance. 

Why are we even asking this question if not to stir up resentment and create enemies? *


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 18, 2019)

BackPaw said:


> Just a reminder that the 10 Commandments were never given to Christians.  They sort of....erm....stole them....
> 
> Oops.



I wouldnt consider sharing a holy text stealing at all.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 18, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> Jesus' story is copied from an egyptian story, that is copied from a mesopotamian one. The parts about being born from a virgin, walking on water, having 12 apostles and being betrayed by one of them... none of it is original



Except for the fact that we know Jesus as a person was a real historical figure who actually existed.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 18, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Except for the fact that we know Jesus as a person was a real historical figure who actually existed.


Christianity predates Jesus' existence though. Jesus as a name weren't that uncommon in that area either. There's also no evidence of him doing "miracles" either, for that matter.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 18, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Christianity predates Jesus' existence though. Jesus as a name weren't that uncommon in that area either. There's also no evidence of him doing "miracles" either, for that matter.



It was called Judaism and that is still around today.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 18, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> It was called Judaism and that is still around today.


Indeed.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 18, 2019)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Others will say to that - that there's no real proof he didn't either; and it all comes down to one's faith, which for most Christians/Catholics, is unshakable.
> Yes he was - absolutely.. and even the most harshest critics out there, have no real evidence to dis-prove he didn't.


The ones making a claim are the ones obligated to prove it, not the other way around. The Bible claims that Jesus performed miracles. The only actual evidence we have is that someone with that name lived in that era and that area.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 18, 2019)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Others will say to that - that there's no real proof he didn't either; and it all comes down to one's faith, which for most Christians/Catholics, is unshakable.
> Yes he was - absolutely.. and even the most harshest critics out there, have no real evidence to dis-prove he didn't.


Well yes, but even if you put the burden of proof on him existing there still are enough historical records to have him categorized as a historical figure and not mythology.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 18, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> The ones making a claim are the ones obligated to prove it, not the other way around. The Bible claims that Jesus performed miracles. The only actual evidence we have is that someone with that name lived in that era and that area.


That is all we can really prove for sure, it basically depends if you believe the first hand accounts.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 18, 2019)

I'm going to avoid the origins of [insert faith] on this thread for the sake of civil discussion, and would encourage others to do the same.

I dont' think anyone here considers Christianity evil, but the consensus seems to be that we consider it a non-aligned force, that has been responsible for both great good and evil throughout history. In that sense, it is neither truly good, nor truly evil.


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## Telnac (Mar 18, 2019)

FuzzleTheMintyDog said:


> *Why are we even asking this question if not to stir up resentment and create enemies? *


I'm a fellow Christian and I'm the one who asked the question. As stated in the OP, it was to provide a relief valve so I didn't derail another thread by mentioning my faith as a source for my moral code. Normally such a post in that thread would invite challenge, which would invite counter points to that challenge and before you know it, I've derailed the thread. Rather than derail that thread, I felt we could have that debate here. 

Honestly I expected this thread to be a dumpster fire by the end of the first page but I'm rather impressed by how civil people are being so far.


----------



## Shadow of Bucephalus (Mar 18, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Rather than turning this good thread ( forums.furaffinity.net: What is Good and Evil) into a dumpster fire, I'm asking those who want to challenge the assertion that Christianity is a viable foundation for one's moral code to post here.
> 
> Let's try to keep it civil. It's one thing to call God evil or Christianity evil but please refrain from maligning each other.
> 
> Ok, gasoline poured... who wants to throw the first match?



Why specify Christianity?
Why not blanket the entire concept of theology being good or bad?

You DO realize the dumpster fire you're inciting with the Topic Title alone?

(btw, not an Xtian, Muslim, or Jewish, so none of the Abrahamic Paths apply to me.  I am more than passing familiar with them, however.)


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## Fruitythebeetle (Mar 18, 2019)

Ey, semi-former christian, so here's my two cents on Abrahamic religions, it's nether bad nor good. the reason they even exist in the first place was for people to better understand the universe. it's kinda like how science is for the modern people. does that mean it's a good thing? not really. it's ironic how alot of Christians conveniently ignore the basic tenets of basic human decency in favor of hurting people like me for so much as looking at a person of the same sex a certain way. just some days ago my mom had a conversation with me where she hoped all the gay people burn in hell or on the stake...and it frighten the fuck out of me. now not all Christians act like this and i see where they're coming from. how can a man make babies with a man? and how can a woman make babies with a woman? they don't have the means to do so and the things we do have cost a shit ton of money.  and to add more insult to injury, she thinks gay people are possessed by demons that make them gay...I'm not making this up.

granted, my parents are from Nigeria which stones gay and trans people on a daily basis. it's not really surprising in the slightest. even then, it's no excuse to call for death upon people like me (do note i'm bi but i have every right to state this). isn't the whole point of Christianity is to love your neighbors? non-violence? and caring for one another? well apparently, if your son can't make you grandkids, he might as well be dead to you. 

i'll give y'all this though, abrahamic myths are baller as heck and i wanna see more of it outside of anime.


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## Frank Gulotta (Mar 18, 2019)

I think Jesus is a pretty good role model.


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## CindyPig (Mar 18, 2019)

Everyone is entitled to a rich fantasy life . Christianity is only evil when forced upon you.


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## Faexie (Mar 18, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Honestly I expected this thread to be a dumpster fire by the end of the first page but I'm rather impressed by how civil people are being so far.



As far as I've seen, even though I've seen a few very anti christian people, most non christians here have a more or less neutral view on christianity. I think on average it would go from finding it somewhat beautiful while being skeptical of the more suppernatural aspects (or already believing in something else), to seeing some ugliness in it but knowing that not all christians adhere to these ugly parts.

I'm sorry you've been given crap for expressing your religion. I may not believe in it and think the world would be better without any religion at all, but I think you're a pretty good and reasonable guy who don't deserve this kind of bashing.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 18, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> suppernatural


Brain. Stop thinking about food. I know she did not mean to spell it that way!


----------



## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 18, 2019)

Fruitythebeetle said:


> Ey, semi-former christian, so here's my two cents on Abrahamic religions, it's nether bad nor good. the reason they even exist in the first place was for people to better understand the universe. it's kinda like how science is for the modern people. does that mean it's a good thing? not really. it's ironic how alot of Christians conveniently ignore the basic tenets of basic human decency in favor of hurting people like me for so much as looking at a person of the same sex a certain way. just some days ago my mom had a conversation with me where she hoped all the gay people burn in hell or on the stake...and it frighten the fuck out of me. now not all Christians act like this and i see where they're coming from. how can a man make babies with a man? and how can a woman make babies with a woman? they don't have the means to do so and the things we do have cost a shit ton of money.  and to add more insult to injury, she thinks gay people are possessed by demons that make them gay...I'm not making this up.
> 
> granted, my parents are from Nigeria which stones gay and trans people on a daily basis. it's not really surprising in the slightest. even then, it's no excuse to call for death upon people like me (do note i'm bi but i have every right to state this). isn't the whole point of Christianity is to love your neighbors? non-violence? and caring for one another? well apparently, if your son can't make you grandkids, he might as well be dead to you.
> 
> i'll give y'all this though, abrahamic myths are baller as heck and i wanna see more of it outside of anime.


I'm partial to gothic architecture. 

That and Powerwolf is the shit.


----------



## Troj (Mar 18, 2019)

Either/both.

Like any other religion, it inspires some people to be much better, and others to be much worse, and provides most with an additional rationales and motivations for being and doing what they were _probably_ more-or-less inclined to be and do anyway.

Just as with other religions, I _deeply_ resent how Christianity has given its adherents a kind of impenetrable shield in the form of unfalsifiable truth claims about what Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit supposedly want, like, or intend. "I don't have to bake you  a cake because Jesus says he doesn't like you, neener neener!"

But, the rise of the alt-right, flat-earthers, and anti-vaxxerism have collectively illustrated that people are perfectly capable of being bigoted, cruel, stupid, irrational, and superstitious even when a desert deity and his various prophets aren't in the mix. On the flip side, people can be ethical, creative, and compassionate without any kind of religious or supernatural motivation.


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## Garfieldthefatkittey (Mar 18, 2019)

Oof


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## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 19, 2019)

@Yakamaru @CindyPig @Anon Raccoon


Yakamaru said:


> The ones making a claim are the ones obligated to prove it, not the other way around. The Bible claims that Jesus performed miracles. The only actual evidence we have is that someone with that name lived in that era and that area.


Many believers strongly feel that they don't need to prove anything to anybody; as their faith is what guides them - not whether critics approve (or not) of their belief systems.


Anon Raccoon said:


> Well yes, but even if you put the burden of proof on him existing there still are enough historical records to have him categorized as a historical figure and not mythology.


 Either way - he existed... and for believers - it makes no difference anyway.


CindyPig said:


> Everyone is entitled to a rich fantasy life.


 That's your opinion; but for many believers - it's not a fantasy, it's reality. And their religion is a part of their identity. If you don't agree with it - fine; but there's no need to be snarky about it and insulting either.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 19, 2019)

Connor J. Coyote said:


> Many believers strongly feel that they don't need to prove anything to anybody; as their faith is what guides them - not whether critics approve (or not) of their belief systems.


Indeed. It only becomes a bit of a problem when you have people trying and push their garbage on others.


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## Misha Bordiga Zahradník (Mar 19, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Indeed. It only becomes a bit of a problem when you have people trying and push their garbage on others.


*knock knock *knock*
Have you heard about our lord and savior Cthulu?


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 19, 2019)

Yakamaru said:


> Indeed. It only becomes a bit of a problem when you have people trying and push their garbage on others.



Which is why I can become irritated by such aggressively atheist people...


----------



## Telnac (Mar 19, 2019)

Fruitythebeetle said:


> Ey, semi-former christian, so here's my two cents on Abrahamic religions, it's nether bad nor good. the reason they even exist in the first place was for people to better understand the universe. it's kinda like how science is for the modern people. does that mean it's a good thing? not really. it's ironic how alot of Christians conveniently ignore the basic tenets of basic human decency in favor of hurting people like me for so much as looking at a person of the same sex a certain way. just some days ago my mom had a conversation with me where she hoped all the gay people burn in hell or on the stake...and it frighten the fuck out of me. now not all Christians act like this and i see where they're coming from. how can a man make babies with a man? and how can a woman make babies with a woman? they don't have the means to do so and the things we do have cost a shit ton of money.  and to add more insult to injury, she thinks gay people are possessed by demons that make them gay...I'm not making this up.
> 
> granted, my parents are from Nigeria which stones gay and trans people on a daily basis. it's not really surprising in the slightest. even then, it's no excuse to call for death upon people like me (do note i'm bi but i have every right to state this). isn't the whole point of Christianity is to love your neighbors? non-violence? and caring for one another? well apparently, if your son can't make you grandkids, he might as well be dead to you.
> 
> i'll give y'all this though, abrahamic myths are baller as heck and i wanna see more of it outside of anime.


Wow. Sorry to hear that! Unfortunately there are plenty of people who overlook the core Christian teaching that we're all sinners, and thus all need the forgiveness that can only come from the Cross. It's easy to point the finger of blame and cry out "sinner!" It's much harder to see the sin in one's own life. It's much, much harder to follow Jesus' example and to forgive those who've hurt you.



Shadow of Bucephalus said:


> Why specify Christianity?


Because I'm a Christian. No other reason.





> Why not blanket the entire concept of theology being good or bad?


Hey, if you want to expand it to theology in general, go for it.


> You DO realize the dumpster fire you're inciting with the Topic Title alone?


Making a dumpster fire wasn't my goal. Yeah I was expecting it to quickly turn into a dumpster fire and yet it hasn't turned into one (yet.) I have to applaud the posters here for their civility.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Mar 19, 2019)

Honestly, I feel like the primary point of religion is to ease death anxiety. It's much more palatable to accept that there'll be an afterlife or something that comes after death than to accept the "Eternal Oblivion". As an Agnostic who doesn't currently believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, I have to say that I'd rather go to hell than to have my consciousness extinguished for all of eternity...


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## Yakamaru (Mar 19, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Which is why I can become irritated by such aggressively atheist people...


They are just as bad just coming from a non-theistic angle and aren't exactly doing anyone any favors. You've got militant people in every group/demographic.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Mar 19, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Which is why I can become irritated by such aggressively atheist people...


I wish that I WASN'T skeptical about religion. I'm fucking TERRIFIED about the Eternal Oblivion.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 19, 2019)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I wish that I WASN'T skeptical about religion. I'm fucking TERRIFIED about the Eternal Oblivion.



Believing there is no afterlife is still a choice. I know saying this is perhaps futile, but believing in _something_ after death can really help ease existential anguish that burdens your mind. Maybe help you focus better on other things in life.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 19, 2019)

I always thought that the greatest weakness of humans as a species is that we are _so _intelligent that we begin to question existence itself, with potential to feed all manner of self destructive behavior.
Other creatures dont have this, they go on eating pooping and breeding just because that's what they do, no explanation required.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Mar 19, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Believing there is no afterlife is still a choice. I know saying this is perhaps futile, but believing in _something_ after death can really help ease existential anguish that burdens your mind. Maybe help you focus better on other things in life.


Yes, I know, but it's really hard to believe when you're skeptical. (Yeah, I know that that was obvious)


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## Fruitythebeetle (Mar 19, 2019)

I fear death a lot and the idea that reincarnation does not exist saddens me. i wanna experience what the world will be like years later but knowing my condition, i could be long past dead after that.  it's why i'm supportive of trans-humanism and finding ways to extend our lifespans. i wanna live on the earth for a bit longer before i accept the eternal blackness that is death itself. i may talk shit about Christianity but atleast it help me ease in on the idea of life beyond death.


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## Peach's (Mar 19, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> Believing there is no afterlife is still a choice. I know saying this is perhaps futile, but believing in _something_ after death can really help ease existential anguish that burdens your mind. Maybe help you focus better on other things in life.


Lack of belief isn't a belief, also, you can be an atheist and still believe in an afterlife, as an afterlife doesn't require a god. 

That said, I might agree with this post if you were talking more about Scientism, which is the dominant subsection of atheists who affirm the position that all questions can be answered by science, and all analysis should be scientific.  Scientism falls apart on the philosophical level when you start pocking a stick at it, and it will only ever support the dominant ideology of the time, as that is were all evidential bias leads. 

I would say there are 4 kinds of atheists
1. Scientism-ists
2. Materialists (classical atheists and Marxists) 
3. Agnostics (actually have no views, just living their best lives yo) 
4. Spiritualists (do not believe in god, but still have spiritual beliefs, there are a lot of Atheist Buddhists  and Atheist Wicca)


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 19, 2019)

Evil, along with the other Abrahamic religions.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 19, 2019)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I wish that I WASN'T skeptical about religion. I'm fucking TERRIFIED about the Eternal Oblivion.


Well that would be terribly cliched for an afterlife to not exist after death.
Besides that on the topic God I do believe he/she does exist but at her/his level of power that they are far more concern about our reality being maintain and balance rather than worrying about each individuals unique problems. The reason why I call god by both gender pro-nouns is because I do not think he/she has a true definitive gender and is not hyper focus on each individuals sexual orientation and gender identity. I am also extremely skeptical of most religious text as it is constantly changed to meet the guidelines of whatever society in charge at the time.


Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Evil, along with the other Abrahamic religions.


Can you give further details beyond "Just evil" as any belief can be twisted to meet the desires of individuals.


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## Peach's (Mar 19, 2019)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> Evil, along with the other Abrahamic religions.


Including Babism, Samaritanism, Bahhai, Yezid, Shabakism, Druze, Mandaeism?


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 19, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> Can you give further details beyond "Just evil" as any belief can be twisted to meet the desires of individuals.


There's the misogyny, the homophobia, the anthropocentric creation myths leading to environmental destruction and zoosadism. Where to start?


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## FluffyShutterbug (Mar 19, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> Well that would be terribly cliched for an afterlife to not exist after death.
> Besides that on the topic God I do believe he/she does exist but at her/his level of power that they are far more concern about our reality being maintain and balance rather than worrying about each individuals unique problems. The reason why I call god by both gender pro-nouns is because I do not think he/she has a true definitive gender and is not hyper focus on each individuals sexual orientation and gender identity. I am also extremely skeptical of most religious text as it is constantly changed to meet the guidelines of whatever society in charge at the time.
> 
> Can you give further details beyond "Just evil" as any belief can be twisted to meet the desires of individuals.


But, you didn't really talk about whether or not an afterlife exists.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 19, 2019)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> But, you didn't really talk about whether or not an afterlife exists.


Fair enough on the topic of the afterlife I do believe that some form of it exists and I believe it changes based on what a person views as paradise. However the only real time I can think a person is denied their choice of afterlife is if they murder, rape, and promote hatred of some sort.


Kit H. Ruppell said:


> There's the misogyny, the homophobia, the anthropocentric creation myths leading to environmental destruction and zoosadism. Where to start?


Anyone can hold those beliefs regardless of an individuals religion.


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## Faexie (Mar 19, 2019)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> But, you didn't really talk about whether or not an afterlife exists.


There are no real way to know outside of actually dying...

I kinda see it that way: if there's life after death, then that's cool, gonna keep living (though I'm wondering if eternal life will get boring after a while... and if it does, will there be an escape?) If there's nothing after life, then I won't be able to care since I won't have this ability anymore.

So I just try to enjoy the life I have now, and I'll see about the afterlife when and if it comes.

Actually it's something that makes me uncomfortable about religion: it can make people live a life of privation (like acting straight while being gay, for example) or choose paths in life they just feel obligated to because of their religion, all so they can get an happier afterlife even though there is no garantee of that existing.

Actually I think that's one of the main issue I have with religions. It can control and entrap people. It can make people do awful things (to themselves and to others), not because they would personally do them but because they fear repercussions from a higher spiritual power, or believe that this power can never be wrong.

That's why faith is absolutely not a virtue IMO.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 19, 2019)

ZeroVoidTime said:


> Anyone can hold those beliefs regardless of an individuals religion.


But not everyone has an instruction manual. Religious influence cannot be denied.


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## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 19, 2019)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> But not everyone has an instruction manual. Religious influence cannot be denied.


The problem is you do not need instructions all the time in order to be a bigot. Yes there are times religion plays a part in discrimination but individuals can choose to hate on other members of society regardless of religious beliefs. Heck humans can be unintentionally bias towards minorities and be completely unaware of such bias.


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## The Matte-Black Cat (Mar 19, 2019)

Sarachaga said:


> I'm fairly neutral on the topic of religion. Let people practice what they want as long as they don't hurt each other.



This is why I love this community. People actually respect one another and Let people be how they want to Be. No insults thrown or anything, just a nice simple statement that makes Sense. I really appreciate that. :3

I'm a Christian. I feel that a Lot (and I mean a LOT) of individuals are confused when it comes to the Bible and understanding it - as things are obviously lost in translation / the Bible itself has a lot of different translated versions, etc.. Therefore, the confusion throws people off - having people believe in things that aren't exactly true, things that are No longer valid/required/ - believe in things that don't apply to us, or things that don't make sense. Even other (actually Many) Christians do this.
I keep it as basic as possible, just reading the King James Version whenever I'd like.

And from My life experience, my personal view of life and what's been going on - anything with moralstic laws such as (I'm saying this Generally - not in Exact text) "Don't cheat on your wife/husband", "Don't steal from others", "Treat others as you'd like to be treated", "Don't commit Murder (different than killing in defense)" simply does Not appear to be Evil to me.


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## Fruitythebeetle (Mar 19, 2019)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> There's the misogyny, the homophobia, the anthropocentric creation myths leading to environmental destruction and zoosadism. Where to start?



i know we humans can be narasaitic but considering the commonly held belief that animals don't have a "soul" kinda gives you basic idea of what you're getting.


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## Faexie (Mar 19, 2019)

Fruitythebeetle said:


> i know we humans can be narasaitic but considering the commonly held belief that animals don't have a "soul" kinda gives you basic idea of what you're getting.


Even secular people believed that animals were just mindless fleshy robots for a long time, and even suggesting that this might not be the case would have made you get ridiculed in the scientific community. So glad things are changing!


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## Peach's (Mar 19, 2019)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> There's the misogyny, the homophobia, the anthropocentric creation myths leading to environmental destruction and zoosadism. Where to start?


I certainly sympathize with this view. To me, Abrahamic religions are totalizing, they have a very hard you follow this, or you get out of the way attitude Christianity and Islam took an insular religion and evangelized it. You can see this when talking to evangelicals who call things like Pokemon Satanic, the Satanism is a later rationalization, they hate it initially because Pokemon is not Christianity, and they hate anything non-Christian, as it is a separation from Christ.

I think however that a lot of those things would still happen if western culture wasn't Christian, if the western world was still Roman-Pagan, there would still be environmental destruction and imperial conquest, but the Romans incorporated other faiths rather than killing them, and they might be more likely to protect a forest for the goddess of the hunt.


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## Ramjet (Mar 19, 2019)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I wish that I WASN'T skeptical about religion. I'm fucking TERRIFIED about the Eternal Oblivion.




Now I'm not a believer in the total oblivion of your conciousness, but if that is the case it's not like you would even know anyway...

Think of going to sleep without dreaming, it not like your subconsciously twiddling your thumbs waiting for 8am...


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## Yakamaru (Mar 19, 2019)

Death is inevitable and won't come for many more decades. I don't believe in an afterlife, but would be nice if one actually existed. Tho I am not going to dwell on it and will instead work on making my current life as good as it could possibly get before I pass away.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 19, 2019)

Kit H. Ruppell said:


> There's the misogyny, the homophobia, the anthropocentric creation myths leading to environmental destruction and zoosadism. Where to start?



When attitudes like this come up, I think the most fruitful approach is to point these folk towards examples of Christians who aren't homophobic, who do support protecting the environment, etc, as examples of moral and upstanding behaviour.

If you attack people's religion then you're unlikely to convince them of anything, and risk them perceiving your moral ideas as incompatible with religion.

I strongly suspect that there are lots of people who don't care about religion one jot themselves, who are keenly generating discord in this way and exploiting it for their own ends.



Ramjet556 said:


> Now I'm not a believer in the total oblivion of your conciousness, but if that is the case it's not like you would even know anyway...
> 
> Think of going to sleep without dreaming, it not like your subconsciously twiddling your thumbs waiting for 8am...



The way I see it, my consciousness popped into existence only a couple of decades ago; it didn't exist before that. 

So I already know it's temporary. 

Trying to imagine a return to a state of non existence gives me a headache. x3


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## Telnac (Mar 19, 2019)

Even as one who believes in an afterlife, I still want to experience a much as I can before passing on to the next life. That's why I love transhumanism and exploration of life extention technology. I'm old enough that such technologies may not extend my life much, if at all, but I'm excited for the generations that will be able to experience most of humanity's centuries-long quest to spread to the stars. I'm impressed by the tiny slice of it that I've experienced so far and we're still getting started.


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## Firuthi Dragovic (Mar 19, 2019)

Unfortunately, my view of religion in general is permanently soured thanks to world events of the past 20 years.  As a result, my default reaction on all religions is that they lean slightly towards evil (I have seen more misuse than proper use so far).

Christianity is no different in this regard, even if there's one passage in Leviticus that appeals to me just because it was just so far off in left field when I first read it.  (It's the one about locusts - 11:22 I think?)

Now, let me be absolutely clear that I have no reason to rain on a religious person's parade just because of their religion.  I don't get to judge people by - for just a few examples - their clothes, their food preparation practices, or whether they have to use a GPS to point out which direction they have to meditate (that last one would be my one experience meeting a Muslim).  I just truly don't see the value in religious practice and am squeamish about even approaching it when it's been so frequently misused.


And I consider the closest thing to an afterlife to be what people say about you when you're gone.  Gives me perspective to be nice NOW.


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## Peach's (Mar 19, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Even as one who believes in an afterlife, I still want to experience a much as I can before passing on to the next life. That's why I love transhumanism and exploration of life extention technology. I'm old enough that such technologies may not extend my life much, if at all, but I'm excited for the generations that will be able to experience most of humanity's centuries-long quest to spread to the stars. I'm impressed by the tiny slice of it that I've experienced so far and we're still getting started.


 
Transhumanism in modern capitalism would be literally hell. Imagine your consciousness needing to work make bitcoins to pay micro transactions to talk to your relatives and retain your memories and full mental function, for the rest of eternity, only ending in trillions of years after the stars die.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Mar 19, 2019)

Ramjet556 said:


> Now I'm not a believer in the total oblivion of your conciousness, but if that is the case it's not like you would even know anyway...
> 
> Think of going to sleep without dreaming, it not like your subconsciously twiddling your thumbs waiting for 8am...


Well, yes, I know, but it lasts forever, man...


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 19, 2019)

Peebes said:


> Lack of belief isn't a belief, also, you can be an atheist and still believe in an afterlife, as an afterlife doesn't require a god.



That's what I meant. It helps to believe in _something. _I wasn't exclusively referring to a God.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 19, 2019)

I believe in life after love. 



Spoiler


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## The Matte-Black Cat (Mar 19, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I believe in life after love.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



..my dumb behind thought she was saying "love after love"

...like..you know, in a deep metaphorical kinda way.. ish..?

Like, does love still happen After being heartbroken (after previous love)...

.....
..
Let me shut up


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## Peach's (Mar 19, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> That's what I meant. It helps to believe in _something. _I wasn't exclusively referring to a God.


Ah, I see. In any case, one doesn't need to have a belief in anything *spiritual*, its the whole you cannot prove a negative deal. (existed in this state for like 2 months lol)

I am also realizing now that while there isn't a technical difference between Atheism and Non-Theism, people usually talk of spiritual Atheists as Non-Theists.


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## Marcl (Mar 19, 2019)

My view probably will be biased on that. But all I know is that while the movement might promote good values we all like to take, there are always some people who will go and use it as a scapegoating mechanism. The thing with Christianity is that there are various rules and without trying to recognise what is actually important. That requires some thinking.

Is any religion good or bad? On its own, in my view, if boiled down to principles - all religions, ideologies, philosophies that promote helping others, being open to them and support personal growth are as such. And so it will apply to Christianity as an idea. But the execution is a different thing. It becomes a tradition and becomes entwined with traditions. And if those traditions are out there to hurt people, people start to mix things up. So as a community or movement - it's neutral, because of the good and the bad.

There are weird things I learn about when I talk with people from all around the globe. Stuff and behaviours justified by people's religion that's, while I was aware this might be a thing, I'd never expect to see or hear to such extend. Recently I had a chance to talk with a Catholic priest about that. Let's say that him being astonished is an understatement. Any form of aggression and harassment from his point of view was not only unacceptable, but just simply acting in opposite of what those people were supposed to do. But here's a thing. I'm fully aware he's a theologian and from more liberal community. I'm aware I'd find priests who could say that LGBT+ is a serious danger. So in the end it boils down to me that people are just people.

I might be cautious, but in the end I'd like to see what those people actually represent with themselves.


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## Telnac (Mar 20, 2019)

Peebes said:


> Transhumanism in modern capitalism would be literally hell. Imagine your consciousness needing to work make bitcoins to pay micro transactions to talk to your relatives and retain your memories and full mental function, for the rest of eternity, only ending in trillions of years after the stars die.


Compared to simply not existing in a few decades, such a concept of a digital afterlife doesn't sound all that bad to me. When you consider the cost of hosting one's digital consciousness would likely drop to a fraction the cost of keeping a meat brain going, the "work" one may do in such an existence would be to provide creative content for others to enjoy. That sounds like a pretty good gig to me.

Besides, if there is an actual afterlife, why does it matter if it begins trillions of years later? If there's not an actual afterlife, wouldn't you want to postpone non-existence as long as possible?


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Compared to simply not existing in a few decades, such a concept of a digital afterlife doesn't sound all that bad to me. When you consider the cost of hosting one's digital consciousness would likely drop to a fraction the cost of keeping a meat brain going, the "work" one may do in such an existence would be to provide creative content for others to enjoy. That sounds like a pretty good gig to me.
> 
> Besides, if there is an actual afterlife, why does it matter if it begins trillions of years later? If there's not an actual afterlife, wouldn't you want to postpone non-existence as long as possible?


But if we transfered our consciousness, would it be truly transfered or would we only have created an AI with the same memories, personality, etc. as ourselves, a clone of ourself but still a distinct being?

Less related to what were talking about, but the same could apply to a form of teleportation in which we get disintegrated then recreated somewhere else. Would the person appearing at the other side still be us, or would they simply be a copy, and we would actually be dead? (the only real way of teleportation would be with wormholes or something, then.)


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## ZeroVoidTime (Mar 20, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Compared to simply not existing in a few decades, such a concept of a digital afterlife doesn't sound all that bad to me. When you consider the cost of hosting one's digital consciousness would likely drop to a fraction the cost of keeping a meat brain going, the "work" one may do in such an existence would be to provide creative content for others to enjoy. That sounds like a pretty good gig to me.
> 
> Besides, if there is an actual afterlife, why does it matter if it begins trillions of years later? If there's not an actual afterlife, wouldn't you want to postpone non-existence as long as possible?


Unless it is the SOMA video game brain copying than that REALLY SUCKS........ (Mind you having a your brain scan awaken in a post-apocalyptic hellish underwater high-tech facility would be nightmarish.....)


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## Telnac (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> But if we transfered our consciousness, would it be truly transfered or would we only have created an AI with the same memories, personality, etc. as ourselves, a clone of ourself but still a distinct being?
> 
> Less related to what were talking about, but the same could apply to a form of teleportation in which we get disintegrated then recreated somewhere else. Would the person appearing at the other side still be us, or would they simply be a copy, and we would actually be dead? (the only real way of teleportation would be with wormholes or something, then.)


Excellent question! If it's a direct copy of our memories into a simulation of the human brain then I think most would agree it'd be a mere copy. If, however you take the (much harder) Ship of Theseus approach and replace every neuron one at a time, you have an uninterrupted stream of consciousness that gradually goes from 100% meat to 100% machine. In that case, wouldn't the digital "you" still be... you?

Keep in mind, that's how nature works. The atoms in your brain don't stay there.  On average, all the atoms in your brain are replaced over the course of a couple decades. Most people here are too young to have many memories from 20 years ago but I do. They're still clear and vivid. I may be a different person than I was back then but it's because the last 20 years have shaped who I am, for better or worse, not because the atoms are different. I can draw an unbroken line of consciousness from there to now, so while I may be older and more mature I'm still... me.

I don't see how that would be any different for those who slowly transition from meat to machine.


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

Telnac said:


> Excellent question! If it's a direct copy of our memories into a simulation of the human brain then I think most would agree it'd be a mere copy. If, however you take the (much harder) Ship of Theseus approach and replace every neuron one at a time, you have an uninterrupted stream of consciousness that gradually goes from 100% meat to 100% machine. In that case, wouldn't the digital "you" still be... you?
> 
> Keep in mind, that's how nature works. The atoms in your brain don't stay there.  On average, all the atoms in your brain are replaced over the course of a couple decades. Most people here are too young to have many memories from 20 years ago but I do. They're still clear and vivid. I may be a different person than I was back then but it's because the last 20 years have shaped who I am, for better or worse, not because the atoms are different. I can draw an unbroken line of consciousness from there to now, so while I may be older and more mature I'm still... me.
> 
> I don't see how that would be any different for those who slowly transition from meat to machine.


I think that would be actual mind transfer (though more like transformation!), since the only difference with the natural renewal of cells is that the materials of the new "neurons" or neuron alternative is different. If we take souls into account we could wonder if the soul would stay attached to the brain once it's entirely roboticised, but since I don't believe in souls that's quite enough for me (and the question about wether souls exist or not is closely related to wether an afterlife exist or not anyway)


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## Ramjet (Mar 20, 2019)

We don't know enough about conciousness and its origin/pathways to even consider this atm..

Hell, a once thought impossible feat with non chemical EEG (brainwave) communication within the brain has just been found early this year to actually be possible to self propagate..

neurosciencenews.com: Discovering a New Form of Communication in the Brain


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## Fallowfox (Mar 20, 2019)

The idea of uploading brains has a sniff of the old alchemy, faster than light travel, cold-fusion and tasty fat-free food about it to me.


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## Simo (Mar 20, 2019)

Not to mention, the complex experiences of 'being' that we go through do not simply reside in the brain, but are constantly being influenced by the body...by various glands, our various senses (sight, hearing, taste, touch, pain, the sexual, being tickled, balance), even the digestive system. I have trouble seeing how just copying over the brain could even begin to approximate any sort of human/animal existence. When I think of all the nerve endings in the body, it's hard to imagine the brain functioning without them. As Nietzsche said, "The body _is_ the soul".

I also can't help but think it'd be frightening not to be in some sort of control, but at the mercy of wherever this data, this form of 'you' is being stored. I don't trust big business or government nearly enough to want to have them meddle about with my own afterlife, if any.

Just imagine Google deciding to stream all you wildest fantasies on You Tube, or posting them to Facebook!!

Also: (circa 1951)


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## Garfieldthefatkittey (Mar 20, 2019)

Im an atheist


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

I wouldnt hold your breath on the digital transcendence. If the human brain was simple enough we could understand it, we would be so simple minded that we couldn't.

Plus this wont save you from death, if someone makes an exact copy of you, memories and all, a perfect replica, and then incinerates the original copy, you still died.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I wouldnt hold your breath on the digital transcendence. If the human brain was simple enough we could understand it, we would be so simple minded that we couldn't.
> 
> Plus this wont save you from death, if someone makes an exact copy of you, memories and all, a perfect replica, and then incinerates the original copy, you still died.


Should probably make a thread about it, seeing as people seem rather interested in the topic.


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## Peach's (Mar 20, 2019)

I am interested in a general religion topic.


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## Connor J. Coyote (Mar 20, 2019)

Peebes said:


> I am interested in a general religion topic.


Then start one... and let the talking begin.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 20, 2019)

Garfieldthefatkittey said:


> Im an atheist


I'm an anti-theist.


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## Anon Raccoon (Mar 20, 2019)

I could get on board with a theist/atheist discussion


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## Fallowfox (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I could get on board with a theist/atheist discussion



I'll make one then, but be warned- they often go awry.


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

Fallowfox said:


> I'll make one then, but be warned- they often go awry.


This one went well, so who knows?


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## Yakamaru (Mar 20, 2019)

Anon Raccoon said:


> I could get on board with a theist/atheist discussion


Made one, but dunno if people are actually capable of behaving, knowing the people on this forum. But we'll see. 

I always leave room for people to surprise me.


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## Fallowfox (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> This one went well, so who knows?


Also making the thread means I can side-step having to articulate all my opinions on the subject. :]

Actually also, if people posted their latitude and longitude I would be able to see if there are any geographic patterns in belief.


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## Faexie (Mar 20, 2019)

I'm from Quebec (Canada, but my province is culturally distinct enough from the others to make a distinction). 

There is already data out there about the rates of atheism and theism (often divided in religions or categories of religion) in different countries


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## Fallowfox (Mar 20, 2019)

Ramona Rat said:


> I'm from Quebec (Canada, but my province is culturally distinct enough from the others to make a distinction).
> 
> There is already data out there about the rates of atheism and theism (often divided in religions or categories of religion) in different countries



Yes, but_ do the furries here match that data? 
_
Anyway, plop: forums.furaffinity.net: Your perspective on spirituality


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