# Warriors for Innocence and Cub Porn.



## Epsereth (May 30, 2007)

Don't mean to resurrect the whole Cub Porn drama, but there is a matter that I believe should be addressed. FA could find itself in serious trouble soon.

There is a group called Warriors for Innocence that is targeting websites that allow content supporting incest and pedophilia. 

LiveJournal has deleted hundreds of communities and personal journals with questionable content in their list of Interests, many of which weren't actually in support of pedophilia or incest. LJ's actions were in response to pressure from Warriors for Innocence, which apparently was responsible for similar deletions on Blogger.

Here is a journal entry from LJ (this is not my account, btw) that has a lot of good information on the status of the situation, addresses rumors that have been confirmed or debunked, and contains a list of communities that have been permanently suspended.

I have seen several jaded furs say that they're thinking of directing WfI's attention to FurAffinity.

In this article, WfI states:
_As pedophiles and their sympathizers scramble to find new hosting options, we will be following them and contacting each web host in order to work to enforce a TOS that will ensure that these hosts maintain a responsible and respectable reputation. _

FurAffinity is full of Cub Pornography, so ubiquitous that should WfI's attention be drawn here, Very Bad Things could happen to the site. I was very unhappy with the Administrators' decision to continue allowing cub porn in the TOS, but I do not want my gallery on FA to disappear because of all this, and I think the entire site should know the risks of allowing such content.

ADMIN EDIT: For the moment, it appears that LJ is acknowledging an over-reaction, and is reversing a good deal of their hasty actions against their community members. We will keep an eye on this issue, but WfI do not appear to pose a significant threat to this community at this time.


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## net-cat (May 30, 2007)

I wasn't around for the cub porn drama, although I did hear about it...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't FA hosted on a private server (or at least the server of a private benefactor) at a data center?

If that's the case, I'd imagine the worst they'd be able to do is get the data center to suspend the account for a few days. I highly doubt the data center cares what its customers keep on their servers as long as it's not illegal; and it's not like there's anything illegal on FA. If there is, the administrators are pretty good about removing it in a timely fashion. (Objectionable content? Hell yes. Illegal? Not so much.)


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## dave hyena (May 30, 2007)

Is there actual honest-to-god, "We are going to get FA shut down!" on the part of these warriors of innocence? Otherwise it's all talk.

There have been several occasions in the past I believe where "jaded furs" have reported FA to warner bros. or tried to do something which would take down FA and so far they have failed miserably.

If you think there really is some serious threat which could potentially end up with FA getting the boot, it is probably best to direct the administrators attention to that in private since public discussion about issues like this, as one may remember, do not always have the best results.

Unless of course a big public furore about "Oh no FA will die because the TOS does not specifically bar X" in order the hope of forcing a change is wanted... 

As regards Cub porn, less than 50% of the submissions on FA are adult/mature or so I have seen it said by Yak or at least an admin in the past IIRC. Of that, I cannot imagine any but a tiny-tiny proportion are honest to god cub porn so it simply doesn't do to go claiming that FA is Cub-central or the like. 

All in all, if you feel there really is a genuine threat, this is probably a matter raised with and discussed by the staff in private I think. 



			
				net-cat said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't FA hosted on a private server (or at least the server of a private benefactor) at a data center?



"There are currently two servers in use by Fur Affinity. The primary server, Gecko, is a dual processor Intel Xeon 3.0Ghz system with 4GB of RAM, currently housed in a Weehawken, New Jersey Level 3 collocation facility. The second server, Phoenix Down, is an AMD Athlon 64 3200+ with 1GB of RAM and is used to store an identical 1:1 copy of the website in the event of hardware failure. Phoenix Down is located at an office at the foothills of Hawk Mountain, near Allentown, PA."

http://www.wikiffinity.net/index.php?title=History_of_the_Site%2C_the_Universe_and_Everything


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## Lougara (May 30, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> Is there actual honest-to-god, "We are going to get FA shut down!" on the part of these warriors of innocence? Otherwise it's all talk.
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> There have been several occasions in the past I believe where "jaded furs" have reported FA to warner bros. or tried to do something which would take down FA and so far they have failed miserably.
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i don't think it's so much as 'jaded furs' themselves trying to take down FA because of the cub porn, but it's more of the fact that money exchanged hands most likely at Six apart, because people were getting banned ridiculously- people who had the interest-"lolita" in reference to cosplay, were banned because WFi didn't even bother checking their other interests, and reported them anyway.

 From what I gather, most of the members are high standin socially and financially. I don't know who runs FA solely, but if enough furs report to WFi about the cub porn, their eyes WILL be turned in our direction, and however it goes, changes will happen, and we already have had enough drama on this site- things finally cooled down. The last thing we need is pedo hunters on our door.

I agree with Epsereth- they are a threat.


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## Aikon (May 30, 2007)

These warriors of innocence probably won't make much of an impact on this site if at all, but through their efforts if they could force FA to rework the TOS to disallow cub porn, you couldn't see it but I'd be smiling.  I'd have the widest, cockiest grin on my face.  I love this place, but this whole cub porn thing and the fact they allow it has been a constant thorn in my side.  It's a principle thing, not a matter of how much cub porn actually makes it onto the site, it's the fact it's allowed at all.  Whatever.


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## Lougara (May 30, 2007)

Aikon said:
			
		

> These warriors of innocence probably won't make much of an impact on this site if at all, but through their efforts if they could force FA to rework the TOS to disallow cub porn, you couldn't see it but I'd be smiling.  I'd have the widest, cockiest grin on my face.  I love this place, but this whole cub porn thing and the fact they allow it has been a constant thorn in my side.  It's a principle thing, not a matter of how much cub porn actually makes it onto the site, it's the fact it's allowed at all.  Whatever.


this group also wants the net to be cleaner for children- a bunch of livejournals were deleted because they had sex or other interests-unrelated to children- in their profiles, or sexual content in their icons.

It wouldn't surprise me if they tried to take FA down because they would find it filthy and depraved.


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## Bloodangel (May 30, 2007)

Lougara said:
			
		

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Well, you can just say "If your kid ended up HERE while on the internet, I expect they knew exactly what they were looking for."

The thing is that they said they did nothing wrong, just got the people at LJ to enforce their ToS. Now, if they try and get FA to enforce theirs, admin can just go "Ok", spin on the spot and say "Finished."


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## Lougara (May 30, 2007)

Bloodangel said:
			
		

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 XDDD Omg that made me lol.


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## Epsereth (May 30, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> this is probably a matter raised with and discussed by the staff in private I think.



Yes, because we already know how effective discussing cub porn with the adminis has been in the past, eh? No, I think that as many people as possible should know about this. 




			
				Aikon said:
			
		

> It's a principle thing, not a matter of how much cub porn actually makes it onto the site, it's the fact it's allowed at all.



That's exactly the problem. Not to mention that people who go on crusades like this tend to find a _lot_ of things hazardous to children, and there is so much questionable content on this site that they'd probably put a blanket "depravity" label on the site. Lord knows enough people do already. I think that forbidding Cub in the TOS would go a long way toward keeping WfI off our tails.




			
				Bloodangel said:
			
		

> Well, you can just say "If your kid ended up HERE while on the internet, I expect they knew exactly what they were looking for."



...Not really. That implies that the site is _for_ porn, not that a buttload of people simply upload it. I don't do porn and 99% of the people on my watchlist don't do porn. *shrug* It's an art hosting site, and considering that the Admins ban underage people they catch looking at porn, what you say isn't exactly accurate. Also, keep in mind that cub porn is allowed by the TOS, and that is what WfI would see and object to.


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## Darfix (May 30, 2007)

Sorry, but, I die laughing every time someone tries to start drama by saying "ZOMG CUB PORN IS ILLEGAL FOR REAL THIS TIME!"

And since I have better things to do with my time than exchange hostile words with someone (IE, 12 hour shifts among other things), if you want to continue it, e-mail me.  I'm not replying to this thread or my post.


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## yak (May 30, 2007)

Though i can't help but to grin and chuckle at the supposed threat, i should try to take it seriously.

And my question would be - who are these guys? Some sort of internet authority or something? 
Who are they to tell me what to host on my servers, if what i'm hosting isn't illegal? Hell, even if it is illegal - what makes them think that can stick their noses in my business? (a blunt example, FA's not mine and the servers are not mine as well - but it should work)
What makes them think they can change something?
What are their methods?

There's absolutely no way someone can end up here by accident, registering by accident and finding that "view adult art" switch somewhere in the CP by accident unless they specifically knew what they were searching for. I've known people who went on for months until they realize "omigawd, there's questionable content on this website".


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## WolfeByte (May 30, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

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In other words, as Dave said, you want to try to incite drama in hopes that maybe this time you'll get what you want, and cub porn will be banned?  Transparent much?



			
				Epsereth said:
			
		

> ...*people who go on crusades like this tend to find a lot of things hazardous to children,* and there is so much questionable content on this site that they'd probably put a blanket "depravity" label on the site. Lord knows enough people do already. *I think that forbidding Cub in the TOS would go a long way toward keeping WfI off our tails.*



BS.  You're contradicting yourself in the same paragraph - If 'Warriors for Innocence' (which sounds a lot like 'fighting for peace' and 'fucking for virginity', haha!) find _any _porn detestable, they're not going to give a rats ass whether cub stuff is banned, while rape, 'guro', and shitting dick nipples are perfectly alright.  They'll take issue with FA (or not) regardless.  

Alas, I'm sure you'll succeed in drama whoring this stupid discussion back to life again regardless, unless some mod stomps this thread quick, so have fun with that.


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## dave hyena (May 30, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> Yes, because we already know how effective discussing cub porn with the admins has been in the past, eh? No, I think that as many people as possible should know about this.



So then the whole reason you posted this was not because you are genuinely concerned about FA, but rather as an attempt to start drama in the hopes that it would force the staff into changing the TOS. :roll:

Edit: wolfbyte in before me. :-O


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## codewolf (May 30, 2007)

personally i dont believe i was here for the furore beforehand and i sure as hell dont want it all to be ressurected again..  in my opinion i believe it would be better if a mod or admin were to lock this thread as soon as possible to 'stop the fire before it starts' as it were.


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## Bloodangel (May 30, 2007)

My Big Edit: I said some shit here. I was out of line. The matches and petrol were there, and I was tossing them very close, so it all goes bye bye before it escalates.


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## Leahtaur (May 30, 2007)

If this group is for making the internet "cleaner" in general, there was no real need to bring up cub porn at all. Psst, your bias is showing. *points*

And if FA's servers are indeed private as net-cat said, than there's no problem, correct? What can they do, really? 

It's not like they got Livejournal's servers to shut IT down. They merely removed the users who had certain interests. So getting your head in a tizzy, saying FA will be shut down if it doesn't ban cub porn omg, is a little premature I think.


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## dave hyena (May 30, 2007)

Oh look, and someone posted a link to this thread on lulz.net (Hi to everyone on there! I hope you like Flemish 15th century art, it's cool!)

http://www.lulz.net/furi/res/48140.html

(lulz.net is NSFW! due to pornographic banners etc)

I bet it was those "jaded furs" eh? :wink:


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## Epsereth (May 30, 2007)

You know what ... I was trying to warn you guys of a potential problem that could make it here in the future. 

My bad, I guess.

Later.


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## dave hyena (May 30, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> You know what ... I was trying to warn you guys of a potential problem that could make it here in the future.



No, I think you were trying to generate drama. If you really were concerned about FA, you would have gone straight to the admins with this, not posted it on the forums, your journal, possibly lulz.net in the hopes that there would be a massive outcry.

You yourself said that you want as many people as possible to know about it, when there isn't even any actual evidence of a threat. I don't even believe that you really did see any Jaded furs. You just made it all up I reckon.


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## Wolf-Bone (May 30, 2007)

So how does one go about joining this group? It's no secret that I hate cub porn with a raging passion. I'm not saying they'll succeed in changing FA if they even do bother to go after it, or that banning cub porn would prevent them from attacking FA on every other conceivable grounds, but there does need to be groups like that out there that make noise for what they believe. And just to prove I'm not a hypocrite, everyone who enjoys what we call depraved, they need to fight for what they believe to.


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## Lougara (May 30, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

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_Can someone please point them in the direction of Fur Affinity?_

_flame me for saying it if you want, I don't care... but why doesn't someone send a link to FA to them? We've got people that are posting actual porn of underage characters doing it, which is illegal.... and let them go at the cub porn artists? But know, lets go after the fan fic writers and people that don't mean any harm. Let's publicly post that we're going after pedophiles so that the pedophiles have time to run for cover. Real frickin' smart.... seriously. They need to rethink their strategy.
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two people from my friends list on lj. 

there's more, but i don't feel like trying to make too much effort trying to prove anything to YOU. This wasn't an attempt at drama.

This whole event has thrown the entirety of livejournal's community into turmoil, and compared to FA, it's damn quiet over there. the news post has failed to make a statement on this, which only confirms suspicions that money and a lot of it, exchanged hands. so far LJ has lost over 11,000 dollars in paid accounts, permanent accounts, and sponsered accounts refusing to renew or leaving completely.

and BTW- just because I don't give a rat's ass about what happens to this damn community full of hypocrites, and because I want to fucking prove everyone here wrong, I have emailed this fundie group this link from multiple emailsl, and have linked their main site multiple places on the site- they have spyware to trace linkbacks.

So yeah. I fail to care anymore, since free speech doesn't matter to you since it's a 'drama starter', let's see how you like it when their fundie eyes turn over here and try to rid this site of its precious cub porn.


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## DarkMeW (May 30, 2007)

OMG, if you don't get rid of Cub porn on FA the Warriors for Innocence are going to get you. They're setting up Their e-axes as we speak to destroy and burn down the FA village. Because as we all know, not even the law of the land can stop a group of middle age vigilantes armed with a lofty morals and a personal computer. 

They could already be ready to rape or horses and ride off on our women! Dam you WFI! 


Seriously, this is such a non issue. FA isn't part of a corporate conglomerate that's looking to please every whim of the daily group cause. Itâ€™s all privately owned and operated.


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## Wolf-Bone (May 30, 2007)

^ Right, which is why they probably won't kick up a fuss, attacking FA won't score them any political points. And frankly, for all the bitching about peoples lack of tolerance furries do, it's that one fact that's largely kept them out of the culture war that's picking up steam these past few years. And for that much at least they should be a bit thankful.


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## Wolfblade (May 30, 2007)

Locking this for Sanity's sake for now, until an official response is available.

Other threads on this topic opened in the meantime will also be locked/deleted.

For the record: everyone angry about the inclusion of Cub Porn to this site can go yell at groups LIKE that one. It had been against the rules, and the rule had been enforced as it was written. People who did not understand that the wording of the rule did not translate the way THEY felt it should pitched a major stink until it was decided that the existing rule was insufficient. Nobody could come up with a better wording than the one they had. Not without labeling people as Cub Artists when it might have just been a matter of style or skill that made their work look underaged TO SOME. Rather than wrongfully label people as pedophiles, the decision was made to just scrap the rule since there was no legal trouble drawings could get the site into, and there was no CLEAR majority on the issue either way.

I seriously doubt there is anything a group like that can do. There is nothing illegal about any content hosted on this site. Doomsday prophecies, petty threats, and slippery-slope scenarios are pointless drama. One-sided arm-flailing isn't going to do anybody any good, so Lock time until one of the dudes with the Keys to this place decides how to respond to this. Thank You Espereth for bringing this to our attention (that's said devoid of sarcasm, just so everyone is clear).

So, I will be trying to get you all an official response to this, but for now: end of discussion until Preyfar says otherwise.


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## Wolfblade (May 31, 2007)

Ok. So, thanks again to Epsereth for pointing out a potential threat to the well-being of this community, and to both Dave Hyena and Epsereth for providing info on the goings-on over at LJ. Apologies as well to anyone miffed that the discussion was cut off, but things were getting a bit heated, and nobody wants another flame war on this issue.

The fact that an online entity as large as LJ reacted so strongly and so quickly to this group suggested that this WfI group had some sort of powerful influence. So it is understandable that this appeared to be a potentially bad thing for the site. However, it now appears that LJ is admitting to a very unfortunate over-reaction, and is trying to correct their mistake.

http://news.livejournal.com/99159.html

Everyone knows FA has made its own share of similar whoopsies in the past, with users feeling mistreated or upset at a particular decision or action. Or even more upset at a perceived inaction. We want you all to know that user relations is something we are going to be working to improve. An important part of this that we ask everyone to acknowledge is that if you have an issue, or feel something needs to be addressed, and are frustrated that we do not immediately jump on it, this sort of thing is probably the reason why we are wanting to take our time. Hasty reactions tend to cause unpleasant messes, like the one LJ is cleaning up now.

Even if a decision seems as simple as "just ban the cub porn and we'll be fine," it is never that easy. Any change will upset people, and the people asking for change will ALWAYS underestimate the numbers of users who would be upset by that change. The Administration has to weigh potential risks against the potential user reaction. 

So unless anything new comes up, this issue is probably a done deal. I'm going to unlock the thread in case anyone has something they wish to add, but only because we're trusting you guy to keep it civil, and keep it calm. If the thread just goes back to fighting and arm-flailing, we'll just lock it again. :3


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## Wolf-Bone (May 31, 2007)

thanks for the link. I'm not so sure I wanna be down with these guys now. I've only skimmed their site so far, but based on some of the language they use, they seem to be not unlike that "web authority" hoax that was brought up here recently, only for real - complete with the Blacks and Jews falling under their umbrella of things that's dangerous to children. Call it intuition. I'm not an Aryan, I just play one in real life, but Wolf-Bone wants nothing to do with that shit.


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## DarkMeW (Jun 1, 2007)

Wolfblade said:
			
		

> So unless anything new comes up, this issue is probably a done deal. I'm going to unlock the thread in case anyone has something they wish to add, but only because we're trusting you guy to keep it civil, and keep it calm. If the thread just goes back to fighting and arm-flailing, we'll just lock it again. :3



I just thought the idea of this group roaming with such uncheck authority over the web was just so laughable. The only thing they could do is put some pressure on some political aspects or try and intimidate people with big scary words. 

Despite the whole thing I can't blame Epsereth for having that reaction. After all, as funny as I find it, they did get LJ to got topsy turvy so they might have gotten some people with their rhetoric.


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## Silver R. Wolfe (Jun 1, 2007)

Brilliant statement Wolfblade.  I wish I could've said it as well myself.

From a personal standpoint, the WfI group would've had a hard time to get any footing in harassing and bullying us here.  I was resolute in my decision initially and wasn't going to let an "organization" like that try to change my decision to not be a moral police officer on the internet.

Digging up the events of November 5th is not something to take lightly either.  If there was any real concern or threat here, the Administration would react accordingly.  We're all here for the benefit of the site and its users.


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## shetira (Jun 1, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> thanks for the link. I'm not so sure I wanna be down with these guys now. I've only skimmed their site so far, but based on some of the language they use, they seem to be not unlike that "web authority" hoax that was brought up here recently, only for real - complete with the Blacks and Jews falling under their umbrella of things that's dangerous to children. Call it intuition. I'm not an Aryan, I just play one in real life, but Wolf-Bone wants nothing to do with that shit.



I also took a looksie at their site and I have to agree... there's a lot more going on with this group than first meets the eye. I'm not going to use the N word, but they come pretty darned close. How they could have gotten such influence with Livejournal is quite concerning though, as is their extreme effectiveness in silencing the victims of sex crimes.


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## dave hyena (Jun 1, 2007)

Epsereth, I'm sorry for insinuateing that you posted the WOI purely to start drama & that you were trolling.


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## Epsereth (Jun 1, 2007)

shetira said:
			
		

> How they could have gotten such influence with Livejournal is quite concerning though, as is their extreme effectiveness in silencing the victims of sex crimes.



From what little I can glean (that doesn't sound like SixApart simply trying to cover its collective ass), I believe the WfI simply threatened to take action in the marketing field, trying to get its sponsors to withdraw the funds they pay LJ exchange for posting their advertisements. I don't understand how that could possibly have led to such a ridiculous overreaction on the part of SixApart, but I'm still trying to snoop that out. 

Also, thank you for your apology, Dave Hyena.


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## Icarus (Jun 1, 2007)

Thank God...
Someone or something has to end this stupid pedophiliac craze once and for all.

Cuz I'm sick of replies like this:


			
				Urban Dictionary said:
			
		

> On Fchan, you can post an image of a dragon raping a ten-year-old foxboy up the ass and gutting him with a jagged piece of glass, but you cannot post an image of an adult foxman smoking marijuana. The administrative staff of Fchan see this as entirely reasonable.


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## shetira (Jun 1, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

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From what I can gather, WFL has unstated agendas. The damage control that they've been trying to do on their own site is pretty insincere. I find it extremely hard to believe that LJ went out of their way to shut down rape survivor journals as WFL seems to be claiming. Clearly there is something else going on there.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 1, 2007)

http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/830650.html

Well, I was KINDA right. Not sure wtf Joel's Army is though.


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## shetira (Jun 1, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/830650.html
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I actually just thought of something... if there really were more than 400 pedo journals on LJ... why did this individual(s) do what they did rather than reporting them to the appropriate authorities? If these people were admitting to doing the things WFI says they admitted, they would be tracked down by the authorities and dealt with! So, instead, they get to run free with nothing but a stiff lesson in propriety... exactly the opposite of what WFI claims to be working towards. Definitely fishy.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 1, 2007)

shetira said:
			
		

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If you've never seen Romper Stomper, you should watch it just for the scene where they go to rob a guys house for loot to pawn. They tie the guy to his own toilet before he can call the cops, and then instead of actually LOOTING the house they decide to smash up his cars while he frees himself. It's an almost poetic example of how bigots never fail at fucking themselves over.

Btw, actually the scene where the mob of rage-filled Koreans utterly destroy the Skinheads is pretty awesome too.


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## Epsereth (Jun 1, 2007)

Yes, I agree that something is fishy, which is the main reason I posted this here. Although a huge part of the debacle is SixApart's fault, I doubt they would have even gone that far over a few threats to advertisement. I hear there is going to be a /b/ raid on the WfI site, and to be honest, I hope it's brilliantly effective. I don't agree with /b/ as a rule, but in this case I would choose to call it karmic justice.

Until then, I think constant e-snooping vigilance is in order, and we should regularly keep the mods updated. I haven't found out anything new today though.


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## imnohbody (Jun 1, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> Not sure wtf Joel's Army is though.



Very basically, they could be summarized as the "Fred Phelps Mafia". Not actually connected to Phelps, but of the same general mindset, only taking it beyond talk and bombast to actual violence against those who aren't "sufficiently Christian" (or at least talk of such acts).

Mind you, that's a rather oversimplified summary of them, but for more than you could possibly wish to know, there's always Google.


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## shetira (Jun 1, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree that something is fishy, which is the main reason I posted this here. Although a huge part of the debacle is SixApart's fault, I doubt they would have even gone that far over a few threats to advertisement. I hear there is going to be a /b/ raid on the WfI site, and to be honest, I hope it's brilliantly effective. I don't agree with /b/ as a rule, but in this case I would choose to call it karmic justice.
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> Until then, I think constant e-snooping vigilance is in order, and we should regularly keep the mods updated. I haven't found out anything new today though.



Indeed. In fact their actions are likely to have a significant adverse effect on advertising. Most advertisers don't want to associate with a site that bans rape victim support groups. One really has to wonder what they were really threatened with...

/b/ raids tend to be counterproductive in situations like this though... I definitely don't think they really understand the effects of what they do.

Vigilance is the key... that and anyone who visited the site should make sure their anti-spyware software is fully up to date.


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## Muse (Jun 1, 2007)

imnohbody said:
			
		

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hxxp://www.joelsarmyinternational.com/


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## WoulfeLoung (Jun 2, 2007)

I kinda don't see what the big deal with cub porn is, really. I am very much against pedophillia in all shapes and sizes, but cub porn can only take one form; art. Just from looking at it, I wouldn't want to fursuit a child and do illegal things. And anyone who should ought to be barred form the fandom and barred in jail. However, that is just one dragon's opinion.

As with most art, I believe that, if you dont like it, do what I do; forget you saw it, and look away. There is a safeword for the internet. Its the red X in the top right corner of the browser. if its really bad, there is also a power button on myr computer, its there for your safety. I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but I want to say that to everyone who thinks the internet should be ultra-regulated.

As for this 'Warriors of Innocence' group, it sounds pretty lame. Good for them for only taking on one single thing to be hunting. Bad for them for going about it the wrong way. No offence meant, but it just sounds like a bunch of overprotective hens with too much free time for the internet. I'm not saying they should be doing housework or anything of the sort. I'm not stereotyper like that. However, their site does seem rather bogus, and they sound a bit like extremists.

As for my personal opinion on what will happen to FA; nothing. I doubt that they will try to attack us, probably not on their own anyways. I'm sure they would rather gang up with all of the furry haters, and go after us all as a group instead of one small 'organization' trying to pick at out ankles.

Joel's Army... Christians with too much testosterone. I went to a private school, took bible classes for four years. They are preaching the completely wrong thing. They almost sound like they want to be Christian terrorists or something. From the looks of it, its almost like 'If you aren't Christian enough, we kill you.' Far too extremist for my taste.


But, again, this is all just one dragon's opinion.


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## darkdoomer (Jun 2, 2007)

^i second Woulfe, some people relly need to deal between what's REAL ( pedophilia ) and fictional ( loli hentai/ furry cub and stuff )


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## DuncanFox (Jun 2, 2007)

darkdoomer said:
			
		

> ^i second Woulfe, some people relly need to deal between what's REAL ( pedophilia ) and fictional ( loli hentai/ furry cub and stuff )



Definitely.Â Â There's a ridiculous anti-pedo craze going on right now.Â Â I mean, I could write volumes and volumes of violent rape fantasies and nobody would bat an eye.Â Â But if I draw a 10 year old foxboy without pants on, I'm going to get villagers with torches and pitchforks at my door.Â Â If I write the rape fantasies, nobody's going to think I want to go out after dinner for an evening of raping.Â Â But I draw that picture, and suddenly I'm a danger to children everywhere?

Please.

It's thinking like that which leads us to scenarios where two under-18 kids who are dating send naked cellphone camera pics to each other, and now they're both charged with felonies for distributing and posessing child porn.Â Â Ridiculous.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

Good luck trying to get the rest of the world to see things your way.


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## DuncanFox (Jun 2, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> Good luck trying to get the rest of the world to see things your way.



I wouldn't even try.  I know how to pick my battles...


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

And for that reason alone, we probably won't kill you.


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## WoulfeLoung (Jun 2, 2007)

darkdoomer said:
			
		

> ^i second Woulfe, some people relly need to deal between what's REAL ( pedophilia ) and fictional ( loli hentai/ furry cub and stuff )



Well, I dont like loli hentai either. There is a large difference between loli, which might be able to happen, and furry cub stuff, which is totally different. Granted, real stuff is just utterly disgusting. But loli... I still dont like it, but I put up with that, at least.



			
				Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> Good luck trying to get the rest of the world to see things your way.



No way. That is just impossible. And its not a matter of trying to get others to get EVERYONE to see our way, just those with enough power to DO something about it to at least  not do something.


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## TundraWolfBlade (Jun 2, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> Good luck trying to get the rest of the world to see things your way.



Im usually amazed if you can get two people in a room to agree 2+2=4.


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## uncia (Jun 2, 2007)

DuncanFox said:
			
		

> Definitely.  There's a ridiculous anti-pedo craze going on right now.  I mean, I could write volumes and volumes of violent rape fantasies and nobody would bat an eye.  But if I draw a 10 year old foxboy without pants on, I'm going to get villagers with torches and pitchforks at my door.



Ah; the good ol' days... _*sighs, dewy-eyed*_







(And bring back the "Angry Villager Rule" in D&D, someone! )

Seriously, though, things are still very much on the slippery slope when it comes to anything that _could_ to be deemed to be tipping over into "dangerous territory" in the belief that's an inevitable and definitive indicator of incipient RL child abuse.
The current "consultation" in the UK (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/1099/0048474.pdf) gets pretty darned close to going beyond "humans only" in some of the cover spiel (much closer than I'd expected prior to its release) and it's obvious the protectionist lobby would be happy to clamp down on far more than just any literature, cartoons, etc. - as opposed to the current requirement for RL content in photos/pseudo-photographs in order to be deemed illegal - as is the intention, regardless of the feedback obtained. Yeah, there's hints of an "out" for "genuine works of art" but whether that's purely defined in terms of "old-master work hanging in the National Gallery in London" and suchlike as opposed to sketches (or fictional scribblings) in an individual's home will be interesting to see!

d.


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## TundraWolfBlade (Jun 2, 2007)

We should just find the pedophiles who kidnap kids and put em somewhere where they cant harm people.  AKA, 6-FT under


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## Epsereth (Jun 2, 2007)

What tends to put people off is the mindset it usually takes to find the qualities of something underaged sexually attractive.


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## Epsereth (Jun 2, 2007)

Just an update: I have proof that Warriors for Innocence is now investigating FurAffinity. Although I doubt they'll be able to do anything right now, I am emailing WolfBlade about it.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

Oh no's, FA's being "investigated" by white supremacist Joel's Army rejects! It's tellolism!

Seriously, people SHOULD be concerned about the perceived invitation pedophiles might see in a site that allows something like cub porn. What they should laugh at is being attacked by people who themselves are on the fringes of social acceptance.


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## Epsereth (Jun 2, 2007)

I believe this is the appropriate time to bring up the old "better safe than sorry" adage.


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## darkdoomer (Jun 2, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> Just an update: I have proof that Warriors for Innocence is now investigating FurAffinity. Although I doubt they'll be able to do anything right now, I am emailing WolfBlade about it.



:twisted: muhahaha, yes !!


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> I believe this is the appropriate time to bring up the old "better safe than sorry" adage.



we tried that once, didn't work, headed straight back to the Neverland Ranch with a peanutbutterjellychickentuna sandwich


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## Epsereth (Jun 2, 2007)

You guys are making me feel so appreciated. *cries some and cuts self*

Are you really so desperate for snark that you're determined to make fun of someone who's trying to help the site? If so, it's really not working. Go make fun of the guy who wants a plastic surgeon to make him a fox instead.


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## Wolfblade (Jun 2, 2007)

Wolf-Bone's not making fun of ya, just expressing disdain for the general situation. He happens to be strongly anti-cub but also sane enough to realise when a group like that is taking things too far. Sucks for him to be in that terrible "rational" middle ground between immoral and zealot.

Well, maybe poking a little fun at taking a group like that seriously.

But honestly, with what has been going on in the world in the last decade or so, we really can't ignore a potential threat just because it seems too improbable or stupid to happen. There's no end to the list of stupid that has happened in this country. X_x


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

hey, from an ethical standpoint I'm on your side. I'm just saying, the better safe than sorry argument didn't work, the scare we had with an actual pedophile on the site wasn't enough to drive the point home, and if someone's going to force FA to change it probably won't be a group that's about as effective at cleaning up the internet as NAMBLA is at legitimizing pedophilia.


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## Epsereth (Jun 2, 2007)

At this point, I just want us all to be as vigilant as we have time to be. When WfI comes sneaking around, there could be nothing more unnerving than a community full of eyes already looking at them. It doesn't matter what's right - we just need them to stay the fuck away.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

well we COULD try to beat them at their own game, which is causing bad publicity for websites. I mean you'd think with so many organizations like theirs, there's got to be at least a few that are all about exposing groups like them for what they are. I know plenty of people that would generally be supportive of a group like theirs - and those same people would distance themselves if they knew the racist connections their members have (which I haven't bothered looking for proof of, but it's easy to tell from some of the wording in their blogs that they're either Aryans or something to that effect).


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## uncia (Jun 2, 2007)

There have been enough people apparently stating they've "invited" WfI to presume they've been passing through, even aside from your note 'bout that, Epsereth...



			
				Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> the scare we had with an actual pedophile on the site wasn't enough to drive the point home



Take the stats and multiply by the user count - that's a given and sorry to say there's not a great deal can be done about that if people choose not to effect self-disclosure (obviously).
RL child sex offenders are another kettle of fish... :? (The two terms are not synonymous, of course).



			
				Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> , and if someone's going to force FA to change it probably won't be a group that's about as effective at cleaning up the internet as NAMBLA is at legitimizing pedophilia.



Yep; it's acknowledged that there are limits to what can be done to prevent possible internet contacts converting into RL abuse.
Another "protect the innocents" org. doesn't make any particular impact on that, regardless of tactic adopted; doubly so, since depictions of immature human children are prohibited on FA; http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=4257 - 5th para. and elsewhere. (_*waves over to anyone from WfI if they're reading this thread for whatever reason*_).

02c, anyhow, fwiw. 

d.


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## Petrock (Jun 2, 2007)

Unless WFI can get everyone they report checked out by the police to be proven to be pedophiles or not, they do not have a legal leg to stand on to have any website or a mass ammount of people banned (like on LiveJournal.).

My biggest idea of what would happen is simple. WFI, if it turns it's attention to FA, would demand the removal of alot of things. FA would most definently refuse, because it's supposed to house adult works as well as kid friendly. WFI woudl go to the police/courts. FA's admins, however, have done ALOT to keep the site legal. WFI, while giving Furaffinity bad publicity, wouldn't be able to inflict any damage. Furaffinity is simply too well organized. 

Cub art, since it isn't real and isn't photography, is not illegal, however untasteful or tasteful people may find it. And until it's actually ILLEGAL, WFI doesn't really have anything against this website that they could use to shut it down. They're a minor threat at best.

Just my one and a half cents.


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## shetira (Jun 2, 2007)

Wolf-Bone said:
			
		

> well we COULD try to beat them at their own game, which is causing bad publicity for websites. I mean you'd think with so many organizations like theirs, there's got to be at least a few that are all about exposing groups like them for what they are. I know plenty of people that would generally be supportive of a group like theirs - and those same people would distance themselves if they knew the racist connections their members have (which I haven't bothered looking for proof of, but it's easy to tell from some of the wording in their blogs that they're either Aryans or something to that effect).



Trying to do something like that is a very difficult process which requires a significant amount of delicacy and tact if one wants a reasonable chance of succeeding. I have a feeling that the backlash from the Livejournal issue may do most of the work anyway, considering that the continuing claims being made by WFI are at odds with their visible activities (claiming to have reported the matters to law enforcement/aiding law enforcement and then at the same time comitting what I would personally call evidence tampering by having the evidence removed or blocked by LJ, giving their targets the opportunity to remove compromising information, etc.). Their actions there should be enough to put them under serious scrutiny (and if I were in charge of LJ, a major lawsuit for making false reports resulting in damage to reputation).


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## darkdoomer (Jun 2, 2007)

> Yep; it's acknowledged that there are limits to what can be done to prevent possible internet contacts converting into RL abuse.
> Another "protect the innocents" org. doesn't make any particular impact on that, regardless of tactic adopted; doubly so, since depictions of immature human children are prohibited on FA; http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=4257 - 5th para. and elsewhere. (_*waves over to anyone from WfI if they're reading this thread for whatever reason*_).
> 
> 02c, anyhow, fwiw.
> ...



thread over !

also, if i were them; i'd rather target the true pedo websites and bbs all around the net. theres a huge job before attacking the furry / yaoi sites.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 2, 2007)

Uncia, the point isn't that the guy was fucking with our heads, the point was that it happened not long after the site had officially gone from "no cub porn gtfo" to "cub porn welcome". You can try to put whatever spin on it you want, but it's human nature that people perceived it as being what you'd expect with the new rules. If it'd happened before the change, people would've largely reacted the same, except without the anticipation beforehand and the added sentiment of "I told you so" after the fact.

In regards to all the shit about WFI, the difference between FA and LJ is in LJ's case, it didn't matter how full of shit WFI is, LJ is a BUSINESS, and ANY bad PR right or wrong could see them lose a significant chunk of their cashflow if the wrong people in the right places decide to make a statement - those people aren't WFI, they're just the ones that stir the shit to manipulate the ones with the real power, which is money. FA has no obligations to anyone except itself and the law. Really if WFI wants to hurt FA, they'd have a better shot of doing that if they lobbied to change the same laws that currently protect it - which would see them gain little support if people knew the orientation of some of their members. The homophobia would slide easily I think, but the racism, no way.


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## Litre (Jun 2, 2007)

oh lol, I read something wrong. haha.

NEVERMIND!


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## net-cat (Jun 3, 2007)

Petrock said:
			
		

> My biggest idea of what would happen is simple. WFI, if it turns it's attention to FA, would demand the removal of alot of things. FA would most definently refuse, because it's supposed to house adult works as well as kid friendly. WFI woudl go to the police/courts. FA's admins, however, have done ALOT to keep the site legal. WFI, while giving Furaffinity bad publicity, wouldn't be able to inflict any damage. Furaffinity is simply too well organized.



Allow me to paraphrase the worst possible scenario in IRC form:

<WarriorsforInnocence> OMG KIDDIE PR0NZ
<BandwidthProvider> OMG KIDDIE PR0NZ
*BandwidthProvider presses big red button on server.
<FurAffinityAdmins> WTF H4X!
<BandwidthProvider> EW PEDOS!
<FurAffinityAdmins> it drawings idiot
<FurAffinityAdmins> NOT REAL
<BandwidthProvider> WTF
<BandwidthProvider> whatev ur $$$ is green
*BandwidthProvider unpresses big red button on server.
<FurAffinityAdmins> yay!
<BandwidthProvider> ...furfagz
<WarriorsforInnocence> >:(
*WarriorsforInnocence has left the channel (EW PEDOS)

(Of course, that would require complete and utter incompetence and overreaction on the part of FA's bandwidth provider, which probably won't happen.)


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## Swampwulf (Jun 3, 2007)

DuncanFox said:
			
		

> Definitely.  There's a ridiculous anti-pedo craze going on right now.  I mean, I could write volumes and volumes of violent rape fantasies and nobody would bat an eye.  <snip>



That's because no one actually *reads* on this site.
It's hard for people to get up in arms about shit when they can't be bothered to look at it in the first place.


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## DuncanFox (Jun 3, 2007)

Swampwulf said:
			
		

> That's because no one actually *reads* on this site.
> It's hard for people to get up in arms about shit when they can't be bothered to look at it in the first place.



That's kinda skipping over my point.  I could even _draw_ pages full of violent rape pics, and still nobody would think that I'm actually a rapist.


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## Petrock (Jun 3, 2007)

net-cat said:
			
		

> Petrock said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




yeah, that would be about a worst case scenario. I'm thinking more 'moderate case' for what I said. XD;


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## Crassus (Jun 4, 2007)

During this entire debacle, the only thing that keeps replaying in my mind are the lyrics of Danny Elfman and Oingo Boingo from the song "Insanity":

Purity, innocence, etc. Attempting to protect these things is a pointless, futile effort in an attempt to reach an impossible dream, conjured up by false ideals and downright lies. This is the source of our imperfection as humans. And because of these imperfections, we end up destroying the very thing which we aimed to protect. Irony.

I'm sad to see it coming to this fandom. Get ready for the storm. 

However, I will say this: I just noticed a comment from someone named "Johann Strauss" on WFI's blog who claims they're a furry and is informing them of this forum thread. They're telling WFI to target FA, claiming that FA contains: "pornographic pictures of children with animal features among other disgusting smut." This clear manipulation of language could have only one intent: To cause trouble for us for their personal agenda. In my opinion, inciting this sort of vigilante activity on a (relatively) peaceful site who's not harming anyone should be grounds for account removal.

_*Edit: Sorry for the long post. I put a link to the lyrics instead.*_


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## yak (Jun 4, 2007)

Uhmm, let's not post the mile-long walls of text next time, okay?


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## Arshes Nei (Jun 4, 2007)

yak said:
			
		

> Uhmm, let's not post the mile-long walls of text next time, okay?



Boxwang = creativity apparently.


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## Wolf-Bone (Jun 4, 2007)

dude wtf shitbombs over Spamistan


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