# FA/IMVU Discussion



## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

We are proud to announce Fur Affinity has joined the IMVU family. Fur Affinity (formerly a part of Ferrox Art LLC) was acquired by IMVU earlier this year in January 2015. We are looking forward to the partnership allowing both FA and IMVU to grow and foster the furry community and to celebrate its unique talents, creativity and self-expression.

As you know, IMVU has previously advertised their services to our community, which led to further discussions about the obvious overlap among our members. Both IMVU and FA community members love to socialize and connect anonymously with people from around the world with diverse backgrounds, talents, and creative histories. They both express their artistic and creative skills in a variety of ways - via artwork, storytelling, fursuiting, crafts and more! Our partnership was the natural and reasonable conclusion to bring these similar and often already connected communities together officially.

Going forward, FA will continue to operate independently but with IMVUâ€™s support and resources to upgrade our services. We can now work on improving our infrastructure, adding more storage, making performance improvements and improved coding support to reach our full potential. As a community member, the only difference you will notice is a better, smoother experience and increased functionality of the site as time goes on.

FA started with a dream and a roll of duct tape, but grew and thrived thanks to the support of our community. We became one of the top 5,000 sites globally, 1,500 sites within the United States. The future remains bright, and together we can aim to reach even higher.

We look forward to having you continue to participate in our community, be creative, be proud, and, above all else, have fun. You are unlikely to notice any changes apart from an improved experience on the site and some added advertising.

Naturally, we understand you will have lots of questions regarding this change, and we are here to answer them. Just leave your comments and concerns in the response below!

-----------------

Q: I heard/read IMVU has the right to repost my content and use it however they want?
A: "Fur Affinity is governed by the site's terms of use, not Google's, Apple's or IMVU's." - IMVU

Rest assured, IMVU is *NOT* taking FA content, redistributing it, reposting it, using it in-game, etc. It's your content. Only FA has the right to show it if you upload it to the site. No one else. 

1) IMVU's policies do not govern content posted/shared/sold on FA

2) IMVU does not have any rights to or will take a cut from content posted on FA

3) IMVU has not been given any user information from FA


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## v-deus (Mar 19, 2015)

What is an IMVU, and how does it affect _me_?

Nah seriously though, primer on IMVU would probably be appreciated. Aside from a few banner ads, I know nothing about it.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

v-deus said:


> What is an IMVU, and how does it affect _me_?
> 
> Nah seriously though, primer on IMVU would probably be appreciated. Aside from a few banner ads, I know nothing about it.



It won't affect anyone OTHER than they will will put a few ads on the site and heavily invest into the site with new hardware and resources to help us make FA the site it's always needed to be.


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## Duality Jack (Mar 19, 2015)

Interesting. This could go one of many ways, I hope it goes well. Extra resources and tech assistance is always good. I hope it doesn't get too "sanitized" in user freedom in turn (not speaking of the pornagraphic side of the functions of FA, more meaning the rather free speech environment). Sterile interactions are boring and meaningless. 

Well cheers to the income this brings to you eh?





v-deus said:


> What is an IMVU, and how does it affect





v-deus said:


> _me_?
> 
> Nah seriously though, primer on IMVU would probably be appreciated. Aside from a few banner ads, I know nothing about it.



http://www.imvu.com/
It's some avatar based site that seems to have teenaged girls in mind.


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## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

v-deus said:


> What is an IMVU, and how does it affect _me_?
> 
> Nah seriously though, primer on IMVU would probably be appreciated. Aside from a few banner ads, I know nothing about it.


IMVU is basically sorta like second life if you're familiar with that.

edit: It's more lile a 3D avatar chat program thing.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

....I am laughing so incredibly hard right now.


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## Taasla (Mar 19, 2015)

I guess I'll ask the big one:
Does this mean that the promised UI updates, etc are going to happen on a set timeline?  Does IMVU want you to work on a firm schedule?  If it isn't met will there be repercussions from them?


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Jack Arclight said:


> Interesting. This could go one of many ways, I hope it goes well. Extra resources and tech assistance is always good. I hope it doesn't get too "sanitized" in user freedom in turn (not speaking of the pornagraphic side of the functions of FA, more meaning the rather free speech environment). Sterile interactions are boring and meaningless.


I have it in writing that things will not be changing EXCEPT for the better. I'm still in charge of FA, and it's my job to fix and improve the community. That's exactly what I intend on doing.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Taasla said:


> I guess I'll ask the big one:
> Does this mean that the promised UI updates, etc are going to happen on a set timeline?  Does IMVU want you to work on a firm schedule?  If it isn't met will there be repercussions from them?


Naturally. If I don't do my job right it has serious implications. The UI delays are frustrating, but we're fixing the way the sites handle templates so we can have both the current AND the new one until the new one's 100% ready for prime time.


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Please tell me this is an early April Fool's joke.


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## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Please tell me this is an early April Fool's joke.


100% Serious.


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## Lvx (Mar 19, 2015)

So why IMVU of all things?
Did they just make the best offer?


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## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> 100% Serious.



Even funnier than a lame April Fool's joke. Runefox, lighten up!

EDIT: I suppose this explains the special treatment they received; getting adverts on the site sooner than many others who didn't even get a reply in some cases.


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## Duality Jack (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I have it in writing that things will not be changing EXCEPT for the better. I'm still in charge of FA, and it's my job to fix and improve the community. That's exactly what I intend on doing.


 That's good to hear, last time I witnessed an online property/community being obtained by a large company a bit too much cleaning happened.

 I am still curious what "better" is going to be. (I am not intending to be sardonic, but I am honestly curious as to what direction things are going to go.)


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Well, there's the final nail in the coffin. I know I told you you needed to give up control of the company, but not like this. Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the malware-ridden cesspool of the internet, boys and girls, population: FurAffinity. I hope you'll be refunding advertising credits for those that purchased them and can no longer use them because of IMVU, and I hope you have a new privacy / copyright policy ready to rock for people who are worried about the transfer of ownership to a company whose privacy policy explicitly discloses that personal information is transmitted both in case of mergers and to third parties for advertising purposes.

Also, it'd be nice to know what "for the better" means, but, well, I guess it won't matter either way eventually when FA ceases to exist.

Have fun!


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Lvx said:


> So why IMVU of all things?
> Did they just make the best offer?


This is a good question. Honestly, I got a lot of offers to buy the site. Some people offered me a LOT of cash to buy the site, and I and every staffer involved would walk away. But that's not what I wanted. I wanted somebody who wanted to invest in the site, and make improvements. Somebody who cared enough about the site that making it better, improving the community was the name of the game.

If I was after money I'd have gone after that. The agreement we made was to invest IN the comment, and make improvements to the site.


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## RTDragon (Mar 19, 2015)

Seriously why IMVU i don't even know if i should be laughing at this or not but why would a popular company join up with a site like this.


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## Taasla (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Well, there's the final nail in the coffin. I know I told you you needed to give up control of the company, but not like this. Jesus Christ.
> 
> Welcome to the malware-ridden cesspool of the internet, boys and girls, population: FurAffinity. I hope you'll be refunding advertising credits for those that purchased them and can no longer use them because of IMVU, and I hope you have a new privacy / copyright policy ready to rock for people who are worried about the transfer of ownership to a company whose privacy policy explicitly discloses that personal information is transmitted both in case of mergers and to third parties for advertising purposes.
> 
> ...



Going off of this question, because I am concerned with IMVU's policies on information privacy.  Two things:

1.  Does this merger have anything to do with the new trackers Ghostery has been showing?
2.  Does IMVU have access to the information?


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## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Soooo let me get this straight. 

You took about 10k in donations to keep the site floating. 


And then you sold it. 

Just to clarify.


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## Rakarra (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> It won't affect anyone OTHER than they will will put a few ads on the site and heavily invest into the site with new hardware and resources to help us make FA the site it's always needed to be.



We saw during the various cub porn/animal porn debates that funding can sometimes come with strings attached (Hell, Paypal unofficially 'bans' and 'unbans' furry porn every once in awhile). That is, if you want to interact with certain financial institutions, you have to play by their rules. Despite the various bans of certain types of content on FA, the site is still fairly liberal about the sorts of artwork it allows to be posted. Will a financial partnership with IMVU lead to 'polite requests' or outright demands on their side to change FA Code of Conduct and/or allowable posting guidelines?


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Taasla said:


> Going off of this question, because I am concerned with IMVU's policies on information privacy.  Two things:
> 
> 1.  Does this merger have anything to do with the new trackers Ghostery has been showing?
> 2.  Does IMVU have access to the information?



1) The trackers are just Google Analytics and Alexa. And they're involved, but they've mostly helped us looked into how/what/where users are accessing FA from, and from what devices... and pushed us towards moving resources into making the site more mobile friendly given the numbers we've seen.
2) Nope. Nobody from IMVU has DB or admin access to the site or forums.


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## ventus (Mar 19, 2015)

What is IMVU relevancy to the furry fandom?


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> 1) The trackers are just Google Analytics and Alexa. And they're involved, but they've mostly helped us looked into how/what/where users are accessing FA from, and from what devices... and pushed us towards moving resources into making the site more mobile friendly given the numbers we've seen.


For now.



> 2) Nope. Nobody from IMVU has DB or admin access to the site or forums.


Yet. Not to say they don't already have scraper scripts provided to them or aren't just spidering the site on their own.


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## Taasla (Mar 19, 2015)

Thanks!  c:


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## Rakarra (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> For now.
> 
> 
> Yet. Not to say they don't already have scraper scripts provided to them or aren't just spidering the site on their own.



Well damn, monkeys COULD just start flying out of my butt at random times as well. Who knows what the future will bring?


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Rakarra said:


> Well damn, monkeys COULD just start flying out of my butt at random times as well. Who knows what the future will bring?



Let's be clear about this: FA was *acquired* by IMVU. *NOT* "funded by" or "engaged in a financial partnership with". IMVU calls the shots, and IMVU is not shy about saying that they send personal information to advertisers for tracking purposes. So put two and two together on that one.


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## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

ventus said:


> What is IMVU relevancy to the furry fandom?


They have a large furry userbase.


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## FoxWolfie (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I have it in writing that things will not be changing EXCEPT for the better.



I hope that means what is better for the FA community, and not just what's better for IMVU.  I appreciate the effort, but this is the first time since I've been on FA that I've had a truly sick and uneasy feeling in my stomach about the future of FA.  It's very unlikely that they're providing all these resources for nothing more that a few extra ads, unless they had something in mind for the site. Considering what they are, and their past, there is great risk to this one.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

ventus said:


> What is IMVU relevancy to the furry fandom?


They have a large furry community within IMVU, and want to help foster and grow the community.



Runefox said:


> Not to say they don't already have scraper scripts provided to them or aren't just spidering the site on their own.


By that logic, anyone could run scrapers on the site. Anyone. Because the only info that they have access to is the publicly available info everyone else does.


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> By that logic, anyone could run scrapers on the site. Anyone. Because the only info that they have access to is the publicly available info everyone else does.


Well, they do and have. The difference being that once FurAffinity's codebase is finally modernized, they'll actually have direct access. There's no reason why IMVU would acquire FA without some incentive, and that will be it.

Unless of course you want to show us the contract to alleviate our fears? I know an awful lot of artists who are scared shitless right now and you're not really offering any reassurances except for implying I'm just smearing you.


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## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Will refunds be offered for donations sincethey weren't needed at all, apparently? I find it hard to believe 10k was kept merely to float the site for another 2 months only to sell it off.


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## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm pretty sure IMCU is interested in keeping FA online and even seek to improve it if only to maintain the user base and be able to sell their own features or products to the userbase.  IMCU does a lot of custom avatars for their chat system, and adding furries to that system would increase pageviews for their advertising partners.  If making some furry avatars is possible, this may make it a suitable alternative to Second Life for such chats, which may actually be a boon to our community.

It may also mean that Dragoneer doesn't have to depend on the generosity of donations or fund raisers to keep up with the ever constant challenge of keeping a huge site like FA up and running.  Hardware fails, ISP's have issues, and there's the  threat of DOS attacks as well.   Having a larger company like IMCU behind to help defend will definitely be an advantage to everyone.

Taking some of the stress and drama away from Dragoneer's plate will have its own benefits as well.  I'm optimally minded on this and feel it will go over well for the fandom in general.

*********

QUESTIONS:   

I know people will already be crying 'foul', 'fraud', and 'conspiracy'.  So be it.  It will happen and we can't hide from such accusations no matter how ludicrous they may appear.   I hope Dragoneer will address the following to keep everyone updated and 'in the loop'.

FUNDRAISING / DONATIONS:  What happens to all the funds that were taken in by FA during the various donation drives?  Do those funds stay local in the FA budget or do they go to IMCU?

DRAGONEER'S INVESTMENTS:  Does Dragoneer take anything back financially from the sale of FA?  I can understand if he takes back his original investment and any expenses he has had along the way.  Donations and fundraising should be kept with FA though.  I'm not sure if he took any more than his costs would be seen as taking profits from those donations or just the cost of doing business.  It can be interpreted many ways, so being completely open will prevent anyone from claiming any sort of improper activities.

WILL FA BECOME A PAY SITE / FEATURE SITE:  Will IMVU be creating tiered or subscription based memberships?  Subscription accounts are the rage for companies today, and I wouldn't blame IMVU trying to monetize it in some way.  I worry that the may chase away the very customers they want to keep.

WILL IMVU MODERATE / CENSOR FA CONTENT?:   It's their right to do so as they own the site.  Hopefully they will be hands off and let Dragoneer run the site, but things change.  What starts an innocent improvement becomes a larger change, then a requirement, then a ban.


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## BRN (Mar 19, 2015)

Sweet!

I reckon IMVU have their own server farm. Will you be moving hosting to their server site? 

Will this forseeably affect the AUP?

Will you forseeably be taking on IMVU staff as FA staff?

Have IMVU disclosed plans to edit, change, revamp the site beyond what we've already heard about?


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## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> They have a large furry userbase.


no they dont, take it from a person who use/used it
its smaller than Furcadia....
and with people constantly asking what is IMVU and looking it up and seeing it as a meh/sub par 3D chat program from a company that is itself sub par might have negatives on all this...


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## Silvershock (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Soooo let me get this straight.
> 
> You took about 10k in donations to keep the site floating.
> 
> ...



To clarify: no, he took those donations _after_ he sold the site. 

I have some questions regarding why you sold to IMVU. I know for a fact (because I was involved with one) that community-led purchase offers were put forward, with distinct plans on how to govern the site, how to improve it, how to inter-operate better, etc, etc. I can't speak to the others, but our proposal was rejected for two main reasons: not enough cash, and not enough control. So when you say things like:



> This is a good question. Honestly, I got a lot of offers to buy the  site. Some people offered me a LOT of cash to buy the site, and I and  every staffer involved would walk away. But that's not what I wanted. I  wanted somebody who wanted to invest in the site, and make improvements.  Somebody who cared enough about the site that making it better,  improving the community was the name of the game.
> 
> If I was after money I'd have gone after that. The agreement we made was  to invest IN the comment, and make improvements to the site.



I have a hard time believing this, because what you're asking for is basically what the community offered. We wanted a community-led control board, a direction for the site, and were prepared to upgrade the infrastructure to support it. IMVU couldn't give you better community support, or relate to the community better, but I'll bet they could swing more money around.


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## Wyla (Mar 19, 2015)

When did discussions on this merge begin? Was it prior to the donation drive in October?


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## ANTIcarrot (Mar 19, 2015)

Many American companies have EXTREMELY puritan policies banning anything even remotely NFSW, to protect their corporate image. Even furry 'companies' like Anthrocon bans certain subject matter from their art shows for similar reasons. Fur Affinity is very open minded in this regard by contemporary standards.

Can we get any assurances that some subjects aren't going to be suddenly banned, and related content deleted? Because that would suck. Especially if artist and writers only get to learn about it after their work, and all comments, gets deleted.


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## Taasla (Mar 19, 2015)

"IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded  to FurAffinity as agreed upon in page 9 of the terms of sale"

Er, what?  With credit?  You can't just give away our right to redistribution.


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## LizardKing (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> It won't affect anyone OTHER than they will will put a few ads on the site and heavily invest into the site with new hardware and resources to help us make FA the site it's always needed to be.



So what do they get out of it? I assume they're not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, unless this is just some side project thought up when their furry VP of technology decided to have some fun. What's their angle?


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## Socks the Fox (Mar 19, 2015)

So, how long do you think until they pull some legalese you misinterpreted to yank the site out from under you?


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## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

I managed to ressurect my forum account. 

You want to know how to make a Summercat go from "asleep" to "awake and alert" in one line?

"Dragoneer sold FA to IMVU".

What the flying. What the. My gods.


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## Silvershock (Mar 19, 2015)

Taasla said:


> "IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded  to FurAffinity as agreed upon in page 9 of the terms of sale"
> 
> Er, what?  With credit?  You can't just give away our right to redistribution.



Where are you reading this from? Linky link please, if you wouldn't mind.


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## Taasla (Mar 19, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> Where are you reading this from? Linky link please, if you wouldn't mind.



It was posted on Twitter, so I'm not sure if it's legit or not.  I'd like to know.  I mean I know DA has a similar policy, but I never agreed to allowing any site to use my work.  That's why I'm not on DA.


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## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Hahah holy shit I just read the OP again. So Dragoneer DID sell the site almost the same damn time he took 10k in donations. 

What the flying fuck? What the hell is all of that about? Was that just some sham to get us to pay all the back-taxes you owed on the site due to your own negligance? 

Ahhhhh fuck it. You've ignored my past three questions so it's not like I'll get a straight answer for this one. 



Summercat said:


> I managed to ressurect my forum account.
> 
> You want to know how to make a Summercat go from "asleep" to "awake and alert" in one line?
> 
> ...




I am laughing so hard right now. This truly is the only proper reaction.


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## monochromatic-dragon (Mar 19, 2015)

While I don't fully understand the implications of this change, it seems like most people are made highly uncomfortable by it and are generally disapproving. What have you done?


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Will refunds be offered for donations sincethey weren't needed at all, apparently? I find it hard to believe 10k was kept merely to float the site for another 2 months only to sell it off.


The donations were needed, and went into purchasing a new server, pulling money in for the DDOS mitigation and for the items we purchased (which are being packaged this week).



flinters said:


> FUNDRAISING / DONATIONS:  What happens to all the funds that were taken in by FA during the various donation drives?  Do those funds stay local in the FA budget or do they go to IMCU?


The funds were used to improve FA, DDOS support/mitigation, a new server and additional support. Plus about 30% of he funds when to purchasing the reward items (as above, they're being packaged now). Running a site like FA is not cheap or inexpensive, and the money is going to good use. Further, all FA funds are out of my hands at this point.



flinters said:


> DRAGONEER'S INVESTMENTS:  Does Dragoneer take anything back financially from the sale of FA?  I can understand if he takes back his original investment and any expenses he has had along the way.  Donations and fundraising should be kept with FA though.  I'm not sure if he took any more than his costs would be seen as taking profits from those donations or just the cost of doing business.  It can be interpreted many ways, so being completely open will prevent anyone from claiming any sort of improper activities.


I'm not taking anything back. Everything I put into the site stays with the site. My end game is solely to make the site better, to finally deliver on all the things I said I was going to (and never did), and make the site shine.



flinters said:


> WILL FA BECOME A PAY SITE / FEATURE SITE:  Will IMVU be creating tiered or subscription based memberships?  Subscription accounts are the rage for companies today, and I wouldn't blame IMVU trying to monetize it in some way.  I worry that the may chase away the very customers they want to keep.


There are ZERO plans and ZERO discussion on this. Period.



flinters said:


> WILL IMVU MODERATE / CENSOR FA CONTENT?:   It's their right to do so as they own the site.  Hopefully they will be hands off and let Dragoneer run the site, but things change.  What starts an innocent improvement becomes a larger change, then a requirement, then a ban.


As it stands right now, I'm in control, running the site. And yes, they could change the site, but I have it in writing their goal is NOT to change or censor the site, but to let it grow on its own.


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Except the site is hemorrhaging money and has been for years, and when things don't change despite "growth", you can expect a stern phone call and a pink slip.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Hahah holy shit I just read the OP again. So Dragoneer DID sell the site almost the same damn time he took 10k in donations.
> 
> What the flying fuck? What the hell is all of that about? Was that just some sham to get us to pay all the back-taxes you owed on the site due to your own negligance?


The money went into FA and was used to help mitigate the DDOSes and purchase the reward items (which are going out within the next few days). And the DDOS attacks which hit the site before occurred a few months prior, but was unrelated.


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## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

I...mentioned nothing about the DDOS atacks?? Okay whatever. Not sure why you felt you had to clarify that they were unrelated. 

So. Both the 10k in donations and the money from selling the site were all put into the site all at the same time?

Also, why did you promise transparency and then wait 2 months to reveal that the site ownership had changed?


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## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> The money went into FA and was used to help mitigate the DDOSes and purchase the reward items (which are going out within the next few days). And the DDOS attacks which hit the site before occurred a few months prior, but was unrelated.



May we have a link documenting this?


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## Croconaw (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer getting fired by IMVU staff. 


Think about it, naysayers~


I feel bad for the people that donated to this site.


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## codewolf (Mar 19, 2015)

Its been ages since i last posted on here...anyhow Dragoneer, there are a lot of "rumours" flying around about that ""IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded to FurAffinity...blah blah pg 9 terms of sale" is this true or just a rumour?


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## GamerFox (Mar 19, 2015)

You know they'll replace you with some crony who'll sanitize the site until it's just another DA wannabe right?


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## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Also. I'd like to bluntly ask this:


Why were donations needed if the site was already in hands capable of upgrading the site infrastructure?


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## trapa (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> This is a good question. Honestly, I got a lot of offers to buy the site. Some people offered me a LOT of cash to buy the site, and I and every staffer involved would walk away.




BULLSHIT!
My offer EXPLICITLY was insistent on keeping Yourself and your staff In place, while creating a board of directors who could help with the management, future planning and growth of the site.

To clarify for those not in the know; 
Myself and those backers with me (who will remain unnamed for their privacy) offered to buy-into (not outright purchase) FA at the valuation of $50,000.00  where the following things would happen.   A board of directors would be created, where Dragoneer and his silent partner Chase together would keep 46% of voting rights, while the new players involved each would get 9%. 

What this percentage of ownership would mean is that if Dragoneer and Chasewanted to do something the way it has been, all they needed was one of the new investors to agree to do it. However, if the new investors wanted to make a change that was contrary to Drgaoneer and XYZ it literally would have to be every single one of the new owners voting together to veto it.  

The second part of this buy in would be to create a board of directors like all the furry conventions out there. That is what Myself and the new players would be bringing to the table. My experience with conventions and planning, as well as the ability to organize many different departments and sub comittee's. In addition to being able to fundraise and steer the long term direction of FA.

There was details still to be discussed and agreed upon, but the talks didn't get any further than the money and some obviously meaningless chitchat with Dragoneer, since my offer was either right on top of , or after the IMVU timing.


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## EGKangaroo (Mar 19, 2015)

I feel slightly worried about this acquisition still. I believe you when you say that you feel this decision was for the better, but still. IMVU must be wanting something back from FA aside from the ads. If IMVU doesn't get a boost in new members coming in from FurAffinity, could that have consequences for this website? Kind of like how when Google acquired YouTube they got increasingly more pushy with the Google+ thing that really nobody wanted, and eventually made it a requirement for its users?


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

GamerFox said:


> You know they'll replace you with some crony who'll sanitize the site until it's just another DA wannabe right?



You don't understand! They said they're not changing anything! It's in WRITING! In invisible ink...


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## Silvershock (Mar 19, 2015)

codewolf said:


> Its been ages since i last posted on here...anyhow Dragoneer, there are a lot of "rumours" flying around about that ""IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded to FurAffinity...blah blah pg 9 terms of sale" is this true or just a rumour?



I was inititally going to discount this as Twitter bullshit, but...um...

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588505/#cid:44894969


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## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

trapa said:


> BULLSHIT!
> My offer EXPLICITLY was insistent on keeping Yourself and your staff In place, while creating a board of directors who could help with the management, future planning and growth of the site.
> 
> To clarify for those not in the know;
> ...



Shit just got real. 
Now I really am curious as to how much IMVU actually gave Dragoneer.... Any transparency on that, digimon buddy


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 19, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> I was inititally going to discount this as Twitter bullshit, but...um...
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588505/#cid:44894969



I see a lot of reposted quotes, but no original source from anyone.


----------



## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

trapa said:


> BULLSHIT!
> My offer EXPLICITLY was insistent on keeping Yourself and your staff In place, while creating a board of directors who could help with the management, future planning and growth of the site.
> 
> To clarify for those not in the know;
> ...



I was wondering what your offer entailed.


----------



## codewolf (Mar 19, 2015)

Which is exactly why i want dragoneer or IMVU to verify what is posted


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> I see a lot of reposted quotes, but no original source from anyone.



See the replies, where Dragoneer acknowledges it. Here, have a screencap: http://gyazo.com/908e9ac93bcd4243d05d577355b5b652


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

EDIT: Pardon me. Ignore this.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Question: Why the two month wait on announcing the ownership change?


----------



## BRN (Mar 19, 2015)

Probably prior experience, considering the Furocity debacle.  You wait until you can count your chickens before you count your chickens.


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> See the replies, where Dragoneer acknowledges it. Here, have a screencap: http://gyazo.com/908e9ac93bcd4243d05d577355b5b652



Oh I see, it's in Dragoneer's journal, not the main site one.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

BRN said:


> Probably prior experience, considering the Furocity debacle.  You wait until you can count your chickens before you count your chickens.



Except the contract was signed and it was finalized in January. The chickens were already counted by then.


----------



## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Except the contract was signed and it was finalized in January. The chickens were already counted by then.



Probably at FC, since IMVU had a fantable there.

Might also explain why Dragoneer fled every time he realized who I was.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

BRN said:


> Probably prior experience, considering the Furocity debacle.  You wait until you can count your chickens before you count your chickens.



This is the opposite of transparency though. And tells me nothing as to why he would wait two months. (I'm not aware of any furocity debacle whatsoever).


----------



## Smelge (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Question: Why the two month wait on announcing the ownership change?



Because "We urgently need donations to keep the site running" sounds better than "Hey, I sold the site to a company that will be funding upgrades to the site but I still want everyone to donate for essential stuff..."


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

trapa said:


> BULLSHIT!
> My offer EXPLICITLY was insistent on keeping Yourself and your staff In place, while creating a board of directors who could help with the management, future planning and growth of the site.



TL;DR, I think Dragoneer's response to you in light of the IMVU purchase is that he didn't want to have to answer to a board of directors, so instead he became an employee.


----------



## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Hahah holy shit I just read the OP again. So Dragoneer DID sell the site almost the same damn time he took 10k in donations.
> 
> What the flying fuck? What the hell is all of that about? Was that just some sham to get us to pay all the back-taxes you owed on the site due to your own negligance?
> 
> Ahhhhh fuck it. You've ignored my past three questions so it's not like I'll get a straight answer for this one.




Right now your only purpose has been to cause drama.  How about giving them a chance to respond before you go ballistic with your claims?  If you want reasonable answers, be reasonable. If you want drama whine fests, go visit Weasyl.


----------



## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> This is the opposite of transparency though. And tells me nothing as to why he would wait two months. (I'm not aware of any furocity debacle whatsoever).



In theory, a few years ago Furaffinity and a site called Furocity were to merge. It fell apart quickly, as most of the admins brought over were not very friendly or good team players, and then couldn't take the heat of a shitty dox attempt that collected only publicly accessible information, demanding Dragoneer DO SOMETHING. When he couldn't, they quit en-masse.

Makes me wonder if Gavin still owns a part of FA. That was part of the legal stuff.


----------



## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> TL;DR, I think Dragoneer's response to you in light of the IMVU purchase is that he didn't want to have to answer to a board of directors, so instead he became an employee.



Okay, I laughed. I honestly did.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> Right now your only purpose has been to cause drama.  How about giving them a chance to respond before you go ballistic with your claims?  If you want reasonable answers, be reasonable. If you want drama whine fests, go visit Weasyl.



Except Dragoneer has posted several times here and has done nothing to dissuade this line of thinking other than "NUH UH". You can be as optimistic as you want, but waiting two months to announce the signing of the deal and not disclosing any of the details is the opposite of transparency, and the lack of forthcoming details out of the horse's mouth when asked is both unsurprising and very suspicious.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> Right now your only purpose has been to cause drama.  How about giving them a chance to respond before you go ballistic with your claims?  If you want reasonable answers, be reasonable. If you want drama whine fests, go visit Weasyl.



I think you've got it turned around. Weasyl is fairly drama free and straight forward. I can't say that Dragoneer has given a majority of straight answers in this thread, and he has been very pick and choosey about the questions he addresses. 

Basically, mind your own business, k hun? Don't be dippin' in the koolaid if you don't know the flavor. 



Summercat said:


> In theory, a few years ago Furaffinity and a site called Furocity were to merge. It fell apart quickly, as most of the admins brought over were not very friendly or good team players, and then couldn't take the heat of a shitty dox attempt that collected only publicly accessible information, demanding Dragoneer DO SOMETHING. When he couldn't, they quit en-masse.
> 
> Makes me wonder if Gavin still owns a part of FA. That was part of the legal stuff.



Huh. Interesting. I think I vaguely remember this.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> Right now your only purpose has been to cause drama.  How about giving them a chance to respond before you go ballistic with your claims?  If you want reasonable answers, be reasonable. If you want drama whine fests, go visit Weasyl.



Right.
FA Cheerleaders such as yourself always dilute valid criticism and questioning as "drama". This is a situation regarding *money* and *privacy*. You better damn well believe people are going to demand immediate answers to serious issues. Now be quiet.


----------



## funky3000 (Mar 19, 2015)

As shotty as the discussion has been making this seem I'm just gonna avoid any contribution to the negativity and conspiracies, and ask some optimistic questions.

Will this mean a sooner and/or guaranteed release date for the new layout? It looks slick.
Will the upload size limit and flood protection stay in place?
Will the AUP be changed to fit their own community guidelines or will it stay the same?
With more servers/funding/etc will there possibly be an FA app for more mobile friendly browsing and submitting?


----------



## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> Right now your only purpose has been to cause drama.  How about giving them a chance to respond before you go ballistic with your claims?  If you want reasonable answers, be reasonable. If you want drama whine fests, go visit Weasyl.



In the past, I've agreed with you. However, Dragoneer has lost the benefit of the doubt from me.


----------



## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Basically, mind your own business, k hun? Don't be dippin' in the koolaid if you don't know the flavor~



I don't see you doing this.  Instead I see you repeatedly making public demands and expecting instant responses.  Patience.   Ask the questions, wait for a response.  Just because you don't get one in ten minutes doesn't mean they are ignoring you.  The staff may be preparing a statement that covers multiple questions including yours.   Wait a day and see what the responses are.   Peppering the staff with demands and then crying foul when they don't respond instantly only makes you look very whiny and petulant, and I don't think that is what you intended.   Be patient, sit back, relax.  Wait for a response.  

There's no need for seeing conspiracies or starting rumors where there  are none.  

I appreciate the response though.  All feedback is welcome.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

How nice to be aboard the Titanic, I get to call it that akin to how people claimed the Titanic was unsinkable. Much like how Yak famously said that if the Titanic was built like FA, no one would have died.

Anyway! I'm sure I'll get ignored, I have before. But, why did you sell FA to this company of all places? Why did you ignore any of the offers were given to you, including the one that wanted to provide FA with a board of directors and keeping you as a mod.


----------



## Wyla (Mar 19, 2015)

Wyla said:


> When did discussions on this merge begin? Was it prior to the donation drive in October?



I'd like to get an answer on this. v0v


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> I...mentioned nothing about the DDOS atacks?? Okay whatever. Not sure why you felt you had to clarify that they were unrelated.
> 
> So. Both the 10k in donations and the money from selling the site were all put into the site all at the same time?
> 
> Also, why did you promise transparency and then wait 2 months to reveal that the site ownership had changed?



The DDOS attacks were the reason we went with the donation drive, thus the reason it is relevant.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I don't see you doing this.  Instead I see you repeatedly making public demands and expecting instant responses.  Patience.   Ask the questions, wait for a response.  Just because you don't get one in ten minutes doesn't mean they are ignoring you.  The staff may be preparing a statement that covers multiple questions including yours.   Wait a day and see what the responses are.   Peppering the staff with demands and then crying foul when they don't respond instantly only makes you look very whiny and petulant, and I don't think that is what you intended.   Be patient, sit back, relax.  Wait for a response.
> 
> There's no need for seeing conspiracies or starting rumors where there  are none.
> 
> I appreciate the response though.  All feedback is welcome.



Alright. I'll wait. i'll back off. Whatever. See what answers I get. So I don't come across as "petulant and whiny". 

You might want to back off the volunteer whiteknighting though. If you don't like a post, just report it. Otherwise you might come off as "brown nosey" and "a bit of a huge kiss ass".


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Wyla said:


> I'd like to get an answer on this. v0v


Discussion took place at the end of Dec/beginning of Jan


----------



## GamerFox (Mar 19, 2015)

Isn't IMVU publicly traded? What's to prevent stockholders from trying to implement an "adult art" ban?


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> The DDOS attacks were the reason we went with the donation drive, thus the reason it is relevant.



This literally didn't answer either of my questions.


----------



## Summercat (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Discussion took place at the end of Dec/beginning of Jan



So within a month of FC.

You spent less than a month on that. 

WHELP. Explains why you went to FC, was to sign the contract.


----------



## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Right.
> FA Cheerleaders such as yourself always dilute valid criticism and questioning as "drama". This is a situation regarding *money* and *privacy*. You better damn well believe people are going to demand immediate answers to serious issues. Now be quiet.



I am also one of those people whom donated money and curious how it was utilized. I also am aware that peppering the staff with questions and when not getting instant answers will not yield positive results.   Whom do you believe has more credibility about a subject- the person asking reasonable questions quietly and waiting for a response in a calm manner, or the person jump up and down on a newspaper stand waving flags and shouting conspiracy theories?

I want answers, but I can wait for a reasonable and calm response.  Patience.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I am also one of those people whom donated money and curious how it was utilized. I also am aware that peppering the staff with questions and when not getting instant answers will not yield positive results.   Whom do you believe has more credibility about a subject- the person asking reasonable questions quietly and waiting for a response in a calm manner, or the person jump up and down on a newspaper stand waving flags and shouting conspiracy theories?
> 
> I want answers, but I can wait for a reasonable and calm response.  Patience.



Alright I want you to read Dragoneer's latest response to my questions and tell me exactly where he even answered my question. 

This is why people get upset. He doesn't actually answer any questions. He just repeats what he wants to tell us/wants us to believe.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I am also one of those people whom donated money and curious how it was utilized. I also am aware that peppering the staff with questions and when not getting instant answers will not yield positive results.   Whom do you believe has more credibility about a subject- the person asking reasonable questions quietly and waiting for a response in a calm manner, or the person jump up and down on a newspaper stand waving flags and shouting conspiracy theories?
> 
> I want answers, but I can wait for a reasonable and calm response.  Patience.



It isn't helping that only selected questions are getting answers.


----------



## codewolf (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I am also one of those people whom donated money and curious how it was utilized. I also am aware that peppering the staff with questions and when not getting instant answers will not yield positive results.   Whom do you believe has more credibility about a subject- the person asking reasonable questions quietly and waiting for a response in a calm manner, or the person jump up and down on a newspaper stand waving flags and shouting conspiracy theories?
> 
> I want answers, but I can wait for a reasonable and calm response.  Patience.



I agreee, however some information is required with regards to the rights of the artists and their art, there have been a few posts on 'neers journal that have not filled a lot of people with confidence, even if its a 'yes, this is correct' or 'no, its a rumour'.


----------



## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> You might want to back off the volunteer whiteknighting though. If you don't like a post, just report it. Otherwise you might come off as "brown nosey" and "a bit of a huge kiss ass".



Fair enough viewpoint.  I don't do the report thing, and probably should, but when I see things get out of control, I tend to step in and play moderator.  I am NOT a moderator here, and shouldn't act like one.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> It isn't helping that only selected questions are getting answers.



Or when he does answer questions he says something completely unrelated. 

Also, didn't technically the donation drive go up BEFORE the DDOS attacks? Everyone forgetting that? He mentioned that te donations drive was already in place for different reasons but the DDOS attacks merely pushed it forward. But now aparently the donation drive was "just for the DDOS attacks".


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question someone asked about what happens when this deal doesn't get this IMVU site more users. It looks like everyone who has posted as having heard of it hates it, so it's unlikely they will get any.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/578647127041118208


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> The DDOS attacks were the reason we went with the donation drive, thus the reason it is relevant.





Dragoneer said:


> Discussion took place at the end of Dec/beginning of Jan



Welcome to why you get asked the same questions over and over again: You post one-liners cherry-picking which questions you want to respond to. You have said literally nothing of consequence that would allay fears that artists and users have over their privacy and the ongoing status of the site and community as a whole.

You won't tell us why you waited two months. You won't tell us what the donation money went into other than "more servers", when there is literally unused server hardware sitting in your closet. You won't tell us that you are in perpetuity in charge of FurAffinity and cannot be fired at a later date. You won't tell us the limitations that IMVU accepted with regards to their influence on the site - Only the current status of their intent.

Worryingly, when a line from the contract was leaked, you acknowledged it in a comment on your journal and assumed that you (and IMVU) have the right to display and use user created content for use in advertising, when this was nowhere in any announcements nor in this forum thread. What else are we not privy to?

IMVU has to make money here. FA is losing money hand over fist, and you know it firsthand. If they don't make money, what happens to FA? What happens to you?

You want to be transparent? Scan the damned contract. Otherwise, not even acknowledging our fears for the future of the site lends credibility to them.


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 19, 2015)

Just to quote a staff member over on IMVU



> As mentioned in our announcement, the only input we have in FA is ensuring the site administrator has appropriate resources to make improvements to the site that he has been wanting to make (servers and such).
> 
> We are not implementing any subscription services for FA or generally making any changes to the way that community operates.



FYI and all that


----------



## Smelge (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/578647127041118208



It sure would have been nice if he'd posted it somewhere that the actual users would see it rather than on a Twitter that the majority of users will never visit.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> Just to quote a staff member over on IMVU
> 
> 
> 
> FYI and all that



So what happens when they find out that FA doesn't make any money, it has literally been plagued with debt issues for years. You mean to say a company has always kept their word? Forever and true? Just like Dragoneer right? He's never ever lied to anyone before.


----------



## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

I imagine Dragoneer is getting swamped right now on multiple fronts about this- Twitter, FA, FA Forum, Emails, etc.  I am hoping he is gathering all these questions, noting them and is preparing some sort of blanket statement or post later that addresses these concerns.   I have to say some of the questions brought up so far have been excellent and about things I had no idea about at all.  IMVU a publically traded company?  How does that affect what happens to FA?  I hadn't considered that, and it has me curious.  I don't want to look for trouble, but I'm ignorant about so much regarding this so I have to wait and see.  

Dragoneer:  It would behoove you to answer some of these questions that have been legitimately brought up.  Perhaps set a date one week from now for an official posting with all these questions answered along with those that come up in the interim.  Give everyone a timeline of the purchase, what that agreement was, the responsibilities and obligations by the new company, your role in the new organization, etc.  Money will be a touchy subject, but to alleviate the fears and worries of the members of the community, that may be something you need to address as well.   Is that a reasonable request for a followup official statement in a week?


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I imagine Dragoneer is getting swamped right now on multiple fronts about this- Twitter, FA, FA Forum, Emails, etc.  I am hoping he is gathering all these questions, noting them and is preparing some sort of blanket statement or post later that addresses these concerns.   I have to say some of the questions brought up so far have been excellent and about things I had no idea about at all.  *IMVU a publically traded company?  How does that affect what happens to FA?*  I hadn't considered that, and it has me curious.  I don't want to look for trouble, but I'm ignorant about so much regarding this so I have to wait and see.
> 
> Dragoneer:  It would behoove you to answer some of these questions that have been legitimately brought up.  Perhaps set a date one week from now for an official posting with all these questions answered along with those that come up in the interim.  Give everyone a timeline of the purchase, what that agreement was, the responsibilities and obligations by the new company, your role in the new organization, etc.  Money will be a touchy subject, but to alleviate the fears and worries of the members of the community, that may be something you need to address as well.   Is that a reasonable request for a followup official statement in a week?



I'm sure they won't like knowing what sort of ... content ... they support now.


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> You mean to say a company has always kept their word? Forever and true? Just like Dragoneer right? He's never ever lied to anyone before.



Don't put words into my mouth. I'm just reposting content that people might be interested in. I still find it sketchy as hell that they would buy the entire site with no apparent motive other than some vague "community" nonsense, but at least it might cut down on some of the noise in the thread.


----------



## Namba (Mar 19, 2015)

Well THIS is awkward!


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I am also one of those people whom donated money and curious how it was utilized. I also am aware that peppering the staff with questions and when not getting instant answers will not yield positive results.   Whom do you believe has more credibility about a subject- the person asking reasonable questions quietly and waiting for a response in a calm manner, or the person jump up and down on a newspaper stand waving flags and shouting conspiracy theories?
> 
> I want answers, but I can wait for a reasonable and calm response.  Patience.



You need to understand that this is not a first time thing and our patience has run dry. You'll pardon my crass response, but the attitude you exhibit is a common one that does not help. 
Every major FA blunder which is one every quarter, Dragoneer is extremely vague. He will ignore pressing concerns, delete comments that highlight problems, and ban users under the flimsy pretense of inciting drama. Its shady, so we press harder. This has been the norm for years. 
We've gotten especially more critical when Dragoneer boasted transparency, but had no clue what that word meant other than the fact that it sounds nice and puts communities at ease.

So in the words of Satoru Iwata, Please understand...


----------



## Smelge (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> So what happens when they find out that FA doesn't make any money, it has literally been plagued with debt issues for years.



"Of course FA makes money! Just look at this $10,000 we just got..."


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

IMVU said:
			
		

> As mentioned in our announcement, the only input we *have* in FA *is* ensuring the site administrator has appropriate resources to make improvements to the site that he has been wanting to make (servers and such).
> 
> We *are* not implementing any subscription services for FA or generally making any changes to the way that community operates.





			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Fur Affinity *is* governed by the site's terms of use, not Google's, Apple's or IMVU's."
> - IMVU VP (and my boss)


All present tense and answering very specific questions very carefully. What happens when FA continues to lose money? What happens when the codebase fails to mature in a reasonable period of time? What happens if Dragoneer is fired or otherwise cannot run the site? What happens if IMVU is acquired?


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm having flashbacks of when G4 bought Tech TV and promised to keep it the same for the community, then proceeded to utterly destroy it. As far as I know, neither one exist anymore...


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> I'm having flashbacks of when G4 bought Tech TV and promised to keep it the same for the community, then proceeded to utterly destroy it. As far as I know, neither one exist anymore...



Why would you bring this up? Are you trying to make people cry?


----------



## Atemis (Mar 19, 2015)

Please specify as to what degree IMVU can use FA user created content. You've already confirmed that they can, but what is the specifications?

Edit: "IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded to FurAffinity as agreed upon in page 9 of the terms of sale"
Is there any clause in place to ensure that users retain ownership over all artwork and can have images containing their work removed from other sites?


----------



## GamerFox (Mar 19, 2015)

And now there's yet another DDoS happening.


----------



## Gelgoog328 (Mar 19, 2015)

So much transparency that I can't see a darned thing. People in leadership roles should really stop using anything to do with transparency or clarity.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 19, 2015)

GamerFox said:


> And now there's yet another DDoS happening.



QUICK! DONATE!


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 19, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Why would you bring this up? Are you trying to make people cry?



I feel it is a legitimate concern, due to all the similarities...


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> Don't put words into my mouth. I'm just reposting content that people might be interested in. I still find it sketchy as hell that they would buy the entire site with no apparent motive other than some vague "community" nonsense, but at least it might cut down on some of the noise in the thread.



I'm not, I'm just giving you a cheeky reply, sorry about that!


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> I'm having flashbacks of when G4 bought Tech TV and promised to keep it the same for the community, then proceeded to utterly destroy it. As far as I know, neither one exist anymore...


G4 is hardly anything tech TV now also 
its still around, just no longer EITHER of em now
Enjoy watching COPS and CHEATERS

towards neer pointing out we are "Currently" ourselves seperate...i'm not buying the whole meal

You don't give so much for "just" advertisement space
if they are aiming to utilize FA's title of the largest furry community, for profit to get the userbase to use their program thus spend money...thats gonna be hard when furcadia and SecondLife already dominate here that no one knew of IMVU till either today or saw their ads and didnt think its interesting.

I have already seen in the furry community ads that are SPECIFICALLY directed at furries hosted also on SoFurry (I'm looking at you Furry Mate, such an obvious scam site). So yes the community will not believe the whole "they did all this for just more ad space", something is gonna have to come out of us from this.


----------



## chesse20 (Mar 19, 2015)

wow looks like were all going to have to move to 8chan now


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

If IMVU was only getting ad-space they just would've bought ads. The wouldn't have bought the entire site, busted infrastructure, and dirty laundry all at the same time. I'm not buying the whole charity case story either.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> If IMVU was only getting ad-space they just would've bought ads. The wouldn't have bought the entire site, busted infrastructure, and dirty laundry all at the same time. I'm not buying the whole charity case story either.



I'm guessing Dragoneer fudged the numbers and made FA seem to be profitable for them in order to get such "lax" conditions for the sale. When it becomes obvious that the opposite is true, I'm sure there's language in that contract that specifies what IMVU is entitled to do.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

Atemis said:


> Please specify as to what degree IMVU can use FA user created content. You've already confirmed that they can, but what is the specifications?
> 
> Edit: "IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded to FurAffinity as agreed upon in page 9 of the terms of sale"
> Is there any clause in place to ensure that users retain ownership over all artwork and can have images containing their work removed from other sites?


Another fender journal has been put up to clarify this.


----------



## kisuka (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> We are proud to announce Fur Affinity has joined the IMVU family. Fur Affinity (formerly a part of Ferrox Art LLC) was acquired by IMVU earlier this year in January 2015.



[video=youtube;6h1Ed-gXs0Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h1Ed-gXs0Y[/video]


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 19, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> G4 is hardly anything tech TV now also
> its still around, just no longer EITHER of em now
> Enjoy watching COPS and CHEATERS
> 
> ...



Well, either way, once DirecTV dropped it, it pretty much ceased to exist for me. And I heard they had cancelled the last remaining Tech TV show a few years ago.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAfCwzKU8AAGb3W.png


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

When can we all see the terms of the sale? If this is supposedly okay, and nothing is wrong. I want to see the full terms of sale, in its entirety, here and now. 

There is absolutely no reason this information should not be disclosed.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> When can we all see the terms of the sale? If this is supposedly okay, and nothing is wrong. I want to see the full terms of sale, in its entirety, here and now.
> 
> *There is absolutely no reason this information should not be disclosed*.


QFE. Let's see what you signed. With your signature on it, not a copy-paste.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Another fender journal has been put up to clarify this.


well thats explaining things now
though I would advise "Keeping" the original text from the first journal as now if folks are coming to the site NOW all they get is the info of a problem being answered instead of you know...the full deal.

_What i'm saying wouldnt it be better to just update the original journal instead? you guys done it before..._


----------



## Atemis (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Another fender journal has been put up to clarify this.


Yes but how can an agreement allow them to post images with user content yet restrict them from user content at the same time? Can we just see the official agreement to clarify?


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## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

Praise the ability to screenshot.


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## Jabberwocky (Mar 19, 2015)

In my humble opinion, this seems like a ridiculous idea. IMVU of all sites.
However, if there happens to be improvements (*cough*usernamechangeforexample*cough*) I could grow to get used to it.
Let's see some results, then. Good ones. That way everyone can be happy.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> well thats explaining things now
> though I would advise "Keeping" the original text from the first journal as now if folks are coming to the site NOW all they get is the info of a problem being answered instead of you know...the full deal.
> 
> _What i'm saying wouldnt it be better to just update the original journal instead? you guys done it before..._



They're freaking out, Dragoneer tends to do things and think everyone will clap their hands and not argue about it. This going around : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAfCwzKU8AAGb3W.png just shows he went into this without looking over the details. This is why we need to see that terms of sale. We need to see exactly what the details are, otherwise it isn't going to calm anyone down.


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> They're freaking out, Dragoneer tends to do things and think everyone will clap their hands and not argue about it. This going around : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAfCwzKU8AAGb3W.png just shows he went into this without looking over the details. This is why we need to see that terms of sale. We need to see exactly what the details are, otherwise it isn't going to calm anyone down.



Lol no that won't calm anyone down. No matter what anyone says the drama will continue. 

Question to Neer: 
With this "partnership" what is the division rate. 50/50, or has this been split up between subsidiaries within IMVU/FA? Are there going to be investors taking place into the improvement of FA? Kinda like DA (or so i hear that have investors) Also for advertising, will it be adult content advertising, or just those normal ads we get while on the internet. "You won a million dollars click this malware ad" in that caseâ€¦ heyoh adblock plus. Just wondering. 

I wish everyone the best of luck with improvements on both ends though.


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> With this "partnership" what is the division rate.



This isn't a partnership, IMVU now owns FA 100% and Dragoneer is an employee.


----------



## Blue Raptor (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> 1) The trackers are just _*Google Analytics *_and Alexa. And they're involved, but they've mostly helped us looked into how/what/where users are accessing FA from, and from what devices... and pushed us towards moving resources into making the site more mobile friendly given the numbers we've seen.



Oh, so _that_ is likely why FA won't work with my firewall activated any more, for quite a while now.

Will google analytics be removed again when you gathered that stats info you were looking for?


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## mcjoel (Mar 19, 2015)

Welp this whole situation could have been handled a whole lot better with a little transparency. And the whole them having the right to use artwork uploaded to the website is going to lose the site some of the fandoms most popular artists as their art is most likely the art to be used.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Lol no that won't calm anyone down. No matter what anyone says the drama will continue.
> 
> Question to Neer:
> With this "partnership" what is the division rate. 50/50, or has this been split up between subsidiaries within IMVU/FA? Are there going to be investors taking place into the improvement of FA? Kinda like DA (or so i hear that have investors) Also for advertising, will it be adult content advertising, or just those normal ads we get while on the internet. "You won a million dollars click this malware ad" in that caseâ€¦ heyoh adblock plus. Just wondering.
> ...



Still important to see what exactly we're looking at here.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> This isn't a partnership, IMVU now owns FA 100% and Dragoneer is an employee.


Then why is he saying "partnership" I don't get that. He must have some sort of say so if this is a true partnership.

Also I read that IMVU doesn't have the rights to your content, but I see people arguing that they can take your content.


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## Atemis (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Then why is he saying "partnership" I don't get that. He must have some sort of say so if this is a true partnership.


Dragoneer literally called the IMVU VP his boss in this journal.


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Atemis said:


> Dragoneer literally called the IMVU VP his boss in this journal.



Wowâ€¦ thatsâ€¦ just wowâ€¦ Well we will have to see what happens then, i mean its been like this for a few months and things are going "fine" I guess.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Then why is he saying "partnership" I don't get that. He must have some sort of say so if this is a true partnership.
> 
> Also I read that IMVU doesn't have the rights to your content, but I see people arguing that they can take your content.



We dont know fully on things all I do know is like this

IMVU is Neer's boss and owns the site
IMVU is leaving things to Neer's hands to keep this site running so hes the manager of FA

Edit:
what folks fail to realize in these situations is that..."Neer has a boss"
IF they wish for something neer isnt much of power to say no. He can, he could but usually that comes with consequences as they are going to supply Neer with what he needs to improve the site...neer will have to do things to be able to improve the site if his bosses say something. Just like at my job we are owned by a bigger company, and THEY control our main food menu. And the last time we went no on something...they decided WE didnt NEED a new grill out of THEIR pocket...


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## Pedigree (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> When can we all see the terms of the sale? If this is supposedly okay, and nothing is wrong. I want to see the full terms of sale, in its entirety, here and now.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason this information should not be disclosed.


I have to agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> We dont know fully on things all I do know is like this
> 
> IMVU is Neer's boss and owns the site
> IMVU is leaving things to Neer's hands to keep this site running so hes the manager of FA



Well damn, I hope this was the right decision. At least now they will have the funds to upkeep this site. It, Im sure, wasn't worth the stress of scavenging for money from his own pockets in some cases. 

So somewhere in this decision must be a non disclosure stating that content uploaded here cannot be redistributed. Of anything I want to have a good read of that before uploading content. I try hard to keep my stuff off of Google that doesn't belong on google. My SFW commissions are on google, but WWFF and my NSFW stuff. I don't want that on google.

TOS doesn't mean shit if IMVU wants to change it, since its theirs now.


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## Kajet (Mar 19, 2015)

trapa said:


> BULLSHIT!
> My offer EXPLICITLY was insistent on keeping Yourself and your staff In place, while creating a board of directors who could help with the management, future planning and growth of the site.
> 
> To clarify for those not in the know;
> ...



This seems quite reasonable to me...


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## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> We dont know fully on things all I do know is like this
> 
> IMVU is Neer's boss and owns the site
> IMVU is leaving things to Neer's hands to keep this site running so hes the manager of FA


Pretty much this. They also said that IMVU and FA's policies have no effect on each other. http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283378#11283378


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Pretty much this. They also said that IMVU and FA's policies have no effect on each other. http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283378#11283378



If everything is fine, then there is no reason we can't get the terms of sale posted.


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## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> They're freaking out, Dragoneer tends to do things and think everyone will clap their hands and not argue about it. This going around : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAfCwzKU8AAGb3W.png just shows he went into this without looking over the details. This is why we need to see that terms of sale. We need to see exactly what the details are, otherwise it isn't going to calm anyone down.



We have a lot of people here screaming and shouting, starting rumors and conspiracies, so that too is normal.  They don't want to calm down, they want to panic  Let them go ahead, get it out of their system.  We'll look at this in a day or two when all the drama is over and people have a bit more reasonable minds.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Well damn, I hope this was the right decision. At least now they will have the funds to upkeep this site. It, Im sure, wasn't worth the stress of scavenging for money from his own pockets in some cases.
> 
> So somewhere in this decision must be a non disclosure stating that content uploaded here cannot be redistributed. Of anything I want to have a good read of that before uploading content. I try hard to keep my stuff off of Google that doesn't belong on google. My SFW commissions are on google, but WWFF and my NSFW stuff. I don't want that on google.
> 
> TOS doesn't mean shit if IMVU wants to change it, since its theirs now.


WAIT
I thought FA have for the longest block google from seeing our images?

edit: no wait, they only block google from getting images not going "heres this person userpage"


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## flinters (Mar 19, 2015)

There may be legal reasons not to post the terms of sale for a set period of time.  This is not unusual in corporation / business sales, especially if any are publically held.  When Apple bought Beats, they didn't say anything publically until after the sale was complete, and they did not make the terms of sale public.   I'm no corporate lawyer, and I doubt many members of FA are.  There is a lot we don't understand.    I'd be curious to see what a corporate lawyer does have to say about the transaction process.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Pretty much this. They also said that IMVU and FA's policies have no effect on each other. http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283378#11283378


for now, as again "IMVU is Neer's boss" and its not abnormal for a company that owns another one to have things changed.
I have the least trust in IMVU due to how they already treat their own community, but this is neers decision and as much as the community wish they had control we dont, its all in neer's hands since always.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> There may be legal reasons not to post the terms of sale for a set period of time.  This is not unusual in corporation / business sales, especially if any are publically held.  When Apple bought Beats, they didn't say anything publically until after the sale was complete, and they did not make the terms of sale public.   I'm no corporate lawyer, and I doubt many members of FA are.  There is a lot we don't understand.    I'd be curious to see what a corporate lawyer does have to say about the transaction process.



Well according to him, the sale was done back in January. So right now, unless they can give a good reason not to do it, people like myself will assume there is something there they don't want us to see.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 19, 2015)

holy double post batman, chrome you fucked up
edit


flinters said:


> There may be legal reasons not to post the terms of sale for a set period of time. This is not unusual in corporation / business sales, especially if any are publically held. When Apple bought Beats, they didn't say anything publically until after the sale was complete, and they did not make the terms of sale public. I'm no corporate lawyer, and I doubt many members of FA are. There is a lot we don't understand. I'd be curious to see what a corporate lawyer does have to say about the transaction process.


True, we can only wait for a time that we can publicly view these documents IF they are then released publicly...for all we know they can remain backroom forever.


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

What was FA's classification? LLC right? 

Taxesâ€¦ damn


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## Evan of Phrygia (Mar 19, 2015)

...alright


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## EGKangaroo (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> What was FA's classification? LLC right?



http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588324/
Fur Affinity (formerly a part of Ferrox Art LLC)

Oui Oui!


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## Silvershock (Mar 19, 2015)

I don't think it's reasonable to ask for a contract of private sale to be posted in its entirety. This site was 'Neer's property, it's now IMVU's, and the parts of that that don't affect the community are not our business. I am rather dismayed by the lack of clarification on the content issue, though, as well as the dodging of certain questions asked. A posted clarification of what this means of FurAffinity's TOS (and I do not mean in the next five minutes) would clear up a lot. If Dragoneer has to run that by the boss now, then OK, but if the rules are going to be changed on us then we should know that. Simply telling us "they want to invest" doesn't tell us anything of their intentions regarding the site.

A lot of people are worried. The usual one-line responses to the points raised that are less awkward to address will not cut it in this instance.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

flinters said:


> I imagine Dragoneer is getting swamped right now on multiple fronts about this- Twitter, FA, FA Forum, Emails, etc.  I am hoping he is gathering all these questions, noting them and is preparing some sort of blanket statement or post later that addresses these concerns.   I have to say some of the questions brought up so far have been excellent and about things I had no idea about at all.  IMVU a publically traded company?  How does that affect what happens to FA?  I hadn't considered that, and it has me curious.  I don't want to look for trouble, but I'm ignorant about so much regarding this so I have to wait and see.
> 
> Dragoneer:  It would behoove you to answer some of these questions that have been legitimately brought up.  Perhaps set a date one week from now for an official posting with all these questions answered along with those that come up in the interim.  Give everyone a timeline of the purchase, what that agreement was, the responsibilities and obligations by the new company, your role in the new organization, etc.  Money will be a touchy subject, but to alleviate the fears and worries of the members of the community, that may be something you need to address as well.   Is that a reasonable request for a followup official statement in a week?



I will be gathering up questions and preparing a more in-depth Q&A and about it to respond to people's questions.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> I don't think it's reasonable to ask for a contract of private sale to be posted in its entirety. This site was 'Neer's property, it's now IMVU's, and the parts of that that don't affect the community are not our business. I am rather dismayed by the lack of clarification on the content issue, though, as well as the dodging of certain questions asked. A posted clarification of what this means of FurAffinity's TOS (and I do not mean in the next five minutes) would clear up a lot. If Dragoneer has to run that by the boss now, then OK, but if the rules are going to be changed on us then we should know that. Simply telling us "they want to invest" doesn't tell us anything of their intentions regarding the site.
> 
> A lot of people are worried. The usual one-line responses to the points raised that are less awkward to address will not cut it in this instance.



It is very reasonable, as it will cover every clarification you want. Dragoneer is not trust worthy, this is simply a fact. He can say all he wants, but it just isn't going to cut it. I've been seeing people not just leave, but clean our their inventories. One of which, is the site's original founder. The longer he waits, the worse this will get.


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## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> I don't think it's reasonable to ask for a contract of private sale to be posted in its entirety.


If that's not reasonable, then it's not reasonable to accept anything about the contract as proof that nothing will ever change about the site (except "for the better").


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I will be gathering up questions and preparing a more in-depth Q&A and about it to respond to people's questions.



You'll be posting the full details of the sale right?


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Geez, guys, you leave for a few hours to have the car MOT'd and then you return to find you guys making a mountain out of a molehill! IMVU will have nothing to do with FA soon enough, just you wait. After all, FA makes no money!





...which will probably prompt IMVU to cut their losses and take the whole site down forever.


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## Silvershock (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> If that's not reasonable, then it's not reasonable to accept anything about the contract as proof that nothing will ever change about the site (except "for the better").



I don't follow your logic. Posting the relevant excerpts of the agreement that affect the community makes sense to me, but I doubt you're going to have the entire thing posted because some of that private information has no bearing on you whatsoever.


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## LizardKing (Mar 19, 2015)

So does this mean you can get some real help to finish that new UI/phoenix or what?


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## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> You'll be posting the full details of the sale right?


The details of the sale are not mine to post.


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> The details of the sale are not mine to post.


Precisely, these details are to be provided by IMVU correct?


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## Kadah (Mar 19, 2015)

The only thing I still have not found anything about yet is IMVU's reasons why, and this may not be something Dragoneer can answer for them.
I've seen a lot of what they will do, won't do, expressing support going forward, etc, and that one bit about running ads again, but not why they wanted to do this to start with.

I'm not at all trying to load this question one way or the other like some here have, I'm just wondering why they care. I mean, if its something as simple as "most of the board of IMVU are secretly furrys", then that's completley valid to me. lol


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> The details of the sale are not mine to post.



I hope you're aware that not everyone is going to like that. With all your transparencyâ„¢ , why weren't we informed of any decisions before it was too late? After all your lies and misinformation, what right do you have in expecting anyone to believe you? You were given more than enough chances to be open and clear with your intentions, and I know personally you were given better chances to sell. I also know for a fact you didn't want to sell in the first place.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> I don't follow your logic. Posting the relevant excerpts of the agreement that affect the community makes sense to me, but I doubt you're going to have the entire thing posted because some of that private information has no bearing on you whatsoever.



Okay, so redact the "private" information and post it. Without seeing the contract, all we have are Dragoneer's assurances, and he doesn't legally run the show anymore, so tough cookies if he thinks he can block them from interfering with the site at all. It's their property now. Only IMVU and the signed document hold any weight on this matter, and IMVU isn't talking details any further than Dragoneer is. Shouldn't we at least know what he's done to the site and community in the event that he loses total control by being fired when the site fails to get out of the red?



Dragoneer said:


> The details of the sale are not mine to post.


No, nor is the site yours to run. You've gone from owner to employee, and while you're at the wheel, you're not free to decide where the ship goes. What we want from the document are the details of the agreement that pertain to FA's future, not its present.


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Pssst, IMVU people, here's your first chance to improve the site: Kick Piche upstairs. Put him into a completely powerless position but placate him with an important sounding title like "Senior Consultant" or so.

Seriously, do this now, this man's utter financial poison!


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> The details of the sale are not mine to post.


Unfortunately, this does nothing for a lot of people besides make them upset.

We go from promising transparency to blindsiding people with a change that I have a feeling people on staff knew a lot of users would have a problem with. Hm.

This isn't good. Not for you, not for us, and certainly not with your new employer. This is a very suspect deal, that a lot of people who base this site as their livelihoods would love to know how this actually transgressed.

If you can't do that, then why have faith in you or them? This is an extremely important matter that affects most people, hell, maybe pretty much everyone on the website with content creation on their mind.
You are essentially going back on your word of transparency. For the umpteenth time. There will come a time where people will finally just stop believing what they see even if it's true this time.
What is IMVU's vision for the site? Will content creators be shafted in any way, shape, or form? What /positive/ changes are actually going to happen as a result of this?

Until these questions are answered, you're going to get a lot of flak, especially considering the history of said remarks.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> So does this mean you can get some real help to finish that new UI/phoenix or what?


Yes, money to hire on coding support. Right now, we're fixing/upgrading FA's infrastructure to support larger file uploads (a new app server with 16-cores, full SSD and a storage server with 48TB of space). After that, investing resources into coding and technical support.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Migoto Da said:


> Unfortunately, this does nothing for a lot of people besides make them upset.
> 
> We go from promising transparency to blindsiding people with a change that I have a feeling people on staff knew a lot of users would have a problem with. Hm.


I understand that, but I entered into an NDA and an agreement, a binding contract. Thus, the details are literally not mine to give. Period.


----------



## Lvx (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I understand that, but I entered into an NDA and an agreement, a binding contract. Thus, the details are literally not mine to give. Period.



You could have just SAID there was a Royal Promise and 70% of this debacle could have been avoided


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I understand that, but I entered into an NDA and an agreement, a binding contract. Thus, the details are literally not mine to give. Period.


Very well. Seems backwards given previous mission statements, but I digress. I (and quite a few others) are used to it by now anyway.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I understand that, but I entered into an NDA and an agreement, a binding contract. Thus, the details are literally not mine to give. Period.



This stinks of "bad deal", especially since you obviously didn't bother to read the damn thing before you signed it. The fact that you aren't answering questions about the future of the site and that you're specifically saying you can't answer them is very disturbing.

And of course, in the event that you get fired, IMVU will have to take over anyway, and all bets are off.


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> And of course, in the event that you get fired, IMVU will have to take over anyway, and all bets are off.


I didn't even think of that. Most worrying.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Migoto Da said:


> I didn't even think of that. Most worrying.



Given Dragoneer's history, along with a few of the admins here, I'm sure it won't be long until they're dumped. IMVU is a public company, and as such, a lot of the "drama" that has gone on here will not look good for their image. And as Runefox said, I agree in that he probably didn't read it all too clearly.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Yes, money to hire on coding support.



Will those honest-to-God-professional coders be hired by _you _or by IMVU's executives?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Will those honest-to-God-professional coders be hired by _you _or by IMVU's executives?



I don't think he gets to make that decision.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

NDA seems like a convenient way of not disclosing how much money 'Neer gained from the deal. Must be a hella feeling. 10k in donations to fix servers issues, which means one is theoretically able to keep 100% of the money made from the deal without having to reinvest it in site functionality since it was already put off on all the donators. 

Sounds like a win-win situation to me!


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> NDA seems like a convenient way of not disclosing how much money 'Neer gained from the deal. Must be a hella feeling. 10k in donations to fix servers issues, which means one is theoretically able to keep 100% of the money made from the deal without having to reinvest it in site functionality since it was already put off on all the donators.
> 
> Sounds like a win-win situation to me!



Technically, the monetary responsibility for site upkeep now lies in IMVU's hands, not Dragoneer's. So now that he's debt-free, he can continue being king of the furries for as long as IMVU lets him.


----------



## xxow (Mar 19, 2015)

There's a lot of this that I totally feel; but other people have said it and will continue to say it, so lemme bring up this other thing. Why does IMVU make _insistent_ use of the word "anonymous" in reference to FA? A lot of people have their real identities attached to the work they upload, everyone else is almost entirely pseudonyms (some being very well known), but only possibly a supersmall portion of the site actually does anything anonymously. I feel uncomfortable that IMVU views my work as "anonymous", maybe particularly because I use a CC-BY license. That the copy the owner of the site approves is one that denies a fundamental aspect of my license releases (proper and full attribution) doesn't inspire confidence. The typical way the general public thinks about "anonymous" creations doesn't inspire confidence in their use of the word as part of their announcement.

As others said, the current situation is all together not ideal for us users. The promise of development in exchange for being corporately held by a business that does not necessarily share the original mission and intent of the site doesn't really seem like a fair trade off for us. It might be good for Dragoneer and other staff: are you guys actually employed by IMVU to run FA now? The site's users have been feeling burned for eight years now, and each time we have to weather another policy change or site problem or site culture issue plenty of people treat it like it's the first time it's happened, or worst, like we can't get out of the bad situation. There's plenty of sites that have policies I don't quite like, but still use, tumblr and their entire platform built on selling analytics for instance. I'm not keen on IMVU being even in the position to use images captured on the site to advertise and promote, but that's hardly the issue I take (as yeah, dA and tumblr and twitter and likely weasyl will and do all that too). I just don't know if I can trust the direction IMVU will push FA toward - and they will push eventually, it is literally in their interests to do more than have ads and employ people to run an otherwise unrelated company. It's the actually really dismissive tone that their announcement made, where FA is a site of "anonymous" "sketches and animations" that is of some possible mutual community interest that raises the flags for me.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I don't think he gets to make that decision.



My train of thought.

Cross your heart, Sean, how much say do you have in the new world order?


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Technically, the monetary responsibility for site upkeep now lies in IMVU's hands, not Dragoneer's. So now that he's debt-free, he can continue being king of the furries for as long as IMVU lets him.



Good point. 

But I wonder who ended up finally settling the tax debt. Is it:

A: The donators 
B: IMVU
C: Dragoneer 



I think in the end donators footed a lot of that bill. Yeah it went to "servers" and all, but that only freed other funds to cover the tax debt. Indirectly the donations theoretically goes to more than just servers since its all part of the same cost. Or I wonder if it was the mounting tax debt that prompted the sell out anyhow.


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Good point.
> 
> But I wonder who ended up finally settling the tax debt. Is it:
> 
> ...


 In selling the LLC to a "partnership" the new owner had to have paid for the taxes in order to purchase the LLC i believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> I think in the end donators footed a lot of that bill. Yeah it went to "servers" and all, but that only freed other funds to cover the tax debt.



I thought they already had redundant servers kicking around? Isn't the standard schtick to scream "OH NOES DDOS/HDD FAILUREZ! DONATE NOW PLS!" then buy another fistful of RAM, break the site for a week then claim everything is better until the next problem.


----------



## Sangie (Mar 19, 2015)

The future of ads on FA: http://i.imgur.com/PyhSbbD.png


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Sangie said:


> The future of ads on FA: http://i.imgur.com/PyhSbbD.png


Well at least adblock plus lets me select the ads to block. I love finding new artists with FA's ads.


----------



## Kajet (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I don't think he gets to make that decision.



Well that's good, no need to worry about some hacker who's fucked up several other sites being hired.


----------



## Kadah (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> In selling the LLC to a "partnership" the new owner had to have paid for the taxes in order to purchase the LLC i believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.



If the LLC itself was sold and merged, and if the tax debt was the LLC's and not personal, and if that's how taxes work in that state. More likely the FA property of Ferrox Art, LLC was sold.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Also found this http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283354



> What does it mean for the IMVU community? The FA site will continue to operate indepently and work toward enhancing the fun and experience of their members with our full support. You will continue to enjoy your IMVU experience - whether you belong to our furry community or not as always. We know many of you participate in both communities, so this just means you are always part of the IMVU family!


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Kadah said:


> If the LLC itself was sold and merged, and if the tax debt was the LLC's and not personal, and if that's how taxes work in that state. More likely the FA property of Ferrox Art, LLC was sold.


Hmm im confused, with the LLC. Was the tax debt (discussed in the donation drive thing) for himself, ( was he a sole proprietorship with these taxes?) or was this always a LLC issue.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Also found this http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283354



But there's also this



> For those of you who donâ€™t know, FA is a  community centered around sketching and animations, in which artists are  afforded the opportunity to anonymously share their own individual  creative talents. Sound vaguely familiar? Yes, it is indeed exactly what  you - IMVUâ€™s customers - do as well.



I can only see this misinformation going well.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I can only see this misinformation going well.


I don't see anything they said there that's exactly false. How is that misinformation?

They know about the nsfw content. They said in that thread that their policies regarding it won't be transferred to FA.... or any of their policies for that matter.


----------



## Kajet (Mar 19, 2015)

Hey, now that I think of it, wasn't someone on FA's staff a known zoophile? 

Yeah I'm not see this as an "IF" but "WHEN" Neer's gonna get fired from IMVU.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> I don't see anything they said there that's exactly false. How is that misinformation?
> 
> They know about the nsfw content. They said in that thread that their policies regarding it won't be transferred to FA.... or any of their policies for that matter.



That is not an accurate description of what Furrafinity is and you know it. Come on now. 

Speaking of policies, will it still be within the rules to remove images offending rules 4.1 and 4.2? "*Screenshots and 3d models -> Screenshots of applications, agmes (e.g. Gmod, Second Life, Minecraft), movies or websites that do not showcase new, original, user-created content are prohibited. The use of in-game resources, such as blocks or purchased parts, to create the aforementioned content is permitted.) as well as 4.2. - Content created via character/image generators is prohibited (e.g. Doll Divine).*

I've been seeing some IMVU posts pop up often today, so come clarification would be handy.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> They know about the nsfw content. They said in that thread that their policies regarding it won't be transferred to FA.... or any of their policies for that matter.



But without either seeing a contract or them assuring us that this is going to be the case indefinitely, we have no idea for how long that will be. Everything is "we aren't" or "they aren't", "are", "is", nobody's talking about the future. I get that your job is damage control, but there's seriously a lot of questions that aren't being answered and by all rights can't be because of the NDA. The fact that FA bleeds money and that IMVU supposedly intends to generate revenue from FA through advertising (both things which have been confirmed by Dragoneer in the past and present) sounds pretty damned insidious.

IMVU is a company, and as a company, it's their job to make money. They aren't here to make friends, and they aren't going to make FA profitable by advertising alone unless they make some serious changes to the way FA delivers ads.

So something's not adding up here, and while I've speculated vocally about it, I don't know any more than anyone else does. But whatever it is, Dragoneer can't talk about it and it scares the hell out of every artist I know. I might not use FA anymore, but I damned sure know several people who do, and who rely on it as professional artists, and this whole thing has been quite the nightmare. I seriously hope that IMVU's CEO or whoever's job it is to inform investors of the deal comes forward and lays it out more plainly, because if we can't see the contract, they're the only one we can really get any accurate information out of.

Oh yeah, and the fact that it took several pages of arguing with Dragoneer to get an "I can't talk about it because of an NDA" is seriously distressing as far as his future with the company goes, not to mention his obvious lack of attention to detail as illustrated through his inability to answer basic questions about the language of the document that got leaked. I hope for FA's sake that he isn't fired anytime soon for this kind of shit.


----------



## GemWolf (Mar 19, 2015)

If FA becomes a pay site for adult material or any material for that matter, then I am outta here for good. I assume most artists will follow suite. Hell I may even start my own site for furry artists. I am here to make money and have fun, not spend money and have less access.
Neer - you had so much respect from your fans, and there are so many companies within the World Wide Web, your choice of sale has had me shaking to my core.

I will fully and openly admit it - I am f*cking scared!


----------



## Kajet (Mar 19, 2015)

FurryGemz said:


> Neer - you had so much respect from your fans



That's not right... Oh wait FROM, not FOR... yeah that makes sense then.


----------



## Kesteh (Mar 19, 2015)

Transparency.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> But without either seeing a contract or them assuring us that this is going to be the case indefinitely, we have no idea for how long that will be. Everything is "we aren't" or "they aren't", "are", "is", nobody's talking about the future. I get that your job is damage control, but there's seriously a lot of questions that aren't being answered and by all rights can't be because of the NDA. The fact that FA bleeds money and that IMVU supposedly intends to generate revenue from FA through advertising (both things which have been confirmed by Dragoneer in the past and present) sounds pretty damned insidious.
> 
> IMVU is a company, and as a company, it's their job to make money. They aren't here to make friends, and they aren't going to make FA profitable by advertising alone unless they make some serious changes to the way FA delivers ads.
> 
> So something's not adding up here, and while I've speculated vocally about it, I don't know any more than anyone else does. But whatever it is, Dragoneer can't talk about it and it scares the hell out of every artist I know. I might not use FA anymore, but I damned sure know several people who do, and who rely on it as professional artists, and this whole thing has been quite the nightmare. I seriously hope that IMVU's CEO or whoever's job it is to inform investors of the deal comes forward and lays it out more plainly, because if we can't see the contract, they're the only one we can really get any accurate information out of.



Not only are they a company, they have an affiliate program -> http://www.imvu.com/affiliates/ Which states



> As an affiliate, you will place banner ads on your site to send traffic to IMVU.
> 
> For every signup, IMVU gets from your site, you can earn up to $1.00 per registration!
> 
> Join now and start earning! If you are already a publisher with LinkShare please click here.



This is pretty much what Neer said they're going to do, so why did they make a huge investment for FA's sake?


----------



## Inpw (Mar 19, 2015)

So... What did I miss?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

FurryGemz said:


> I will fully and openly admit it - I am f*cking scared!



And this, right there, is why perhaps some more time should have been put into the questions that people would have asked rather than counting the stacks of bills. Two whole months, you guys waited to announce this, and you weren't even prepared for the questions. You should have had a FAQ already done up. You should have asked for input from people privy to the sale. You should have known that people would be worried about this. But no. You announced it and expected it to go swimmingly. Not a very good first impression on IMVU for handling a public announcement.



Rowedahelicon said:


> This is pretty much what Neer said they're going to do, so why did they make a huge investment for FA's sake?



My thoughts, since Dragoneer won't or can't tell us, are that he was desperate to get rid of his FA-related debt and IMVU saw an opportunity for a relatively inexpensive expansion to their dwindling community. They're desperate for users, he's desperate for cash, a match made in heaven. Mark my words: Eventually, FA users will be de-facto IMVU users.


----------



## Jashwa (Mar 19, 2015)

Lol. The best decisions.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> And this, right there, is why perhaps some more time should have been put into the questions that people would have asked rather than counting the stacks of bills. Two whole months, you guys waited to announce this, and you weren't even prepared for the questions. You should have had a FAQ already done up. You should have asked for input from people privy to the sale. You should have known that people would be worried about this. But no. You announced it and expected it to go swimmingly. Not a very good first impression on IMVU for handling a public announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts, since Dragoneer won't or can't tell us, are that he was desperate to get rid of his FA-related debt and IMVU saw an opportunity for a relatively inexpensive expansion to their dwindling community. They're desperate for users, he's desperate for cash, a match made in heaven. Mark my words: Eventually, FA users will be de-facto IMVU users.



I still want to know why he turned down some of the offers he did get, I know for a fact he has gotten fair ones that the community would have loved and would have kept him as admin. He has an affinity for making the worst possible choices when given them.


----------



## Queen-Cheetah93 (Mar 19, 2015)

Most of you guys are freakin ridiculous. As the previous owner of the site, he has complete and full rights to do whatever he damn wants with it. It's not a democracy- it is his personal property that he decided to sell over to a larger business. We get that you guys have set up your own commission businesses and you may feel like you have a big place in the site, but at the end of the day it was his site. 

Why? It's really none of our business. He could have sold it over to windows and turned it pink and you know what- we cannot do anything about it but gripe and scream and leave.

The statements he has made so far are entirely for our benefit, and honestly, he doesn't have to say more than "I sold the company to blank- here are any changes to your ToS that happened. Everything further is explicitly for PR reasons and trying to limit the amount of crying and whining and conspiracy theories going on. He absolutely does not need to scan out important private documents for you guys, and somehow I doubt that hardly any of you read the Terms of Agreement on anything anyway until you want to use it as legal fodder.

Do I trust the donation set up? Nah- so I don't donate. Do I like this turnover? Who friggin knows? Why?- because absolutely nothing has changed in my user experience in this site. And until I see it changing, I have no reason to think dark sinister thoughts about it's future.

Websites come and go. Have you seen Neopets? Myspace? Deviantart? All these have changed dramatically over the years and their users either stayed or left. 

Until I start seeing changes, I'm going to hold my horses and keep using furrafinity just like I always did and do.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> Most of you guys are freakin ridiculous. As the previous owner of the site, he has complete and full rights to do whatever he damn wants with it.


That would be true if he weren't also the head of a community and if he actually legally purchased the site to begin with.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> Most of you guys are freakin ridiculous. As the previous owner of the site, he has complete and full rights to do whatever he damn wants with it.



But that isn't true, he doesn't own every bit of the site and some legal issues could arise out of that.

Meanwhile, I've never much appreciated the flak people get for caring passionately about something, yes websites come and go, and that is because people let them. Not everyone wants to sit here and let our community be mucked around with, not if we can help it. Just because it doesn't personally affect you, doesn't mean the concern that later a problem could arise isn't there.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Just because it doesn't personally affect you, doesn't mean the concern that later a problem could arise isn't there.



Isn't is strange how the ones crying about drama and telling everyone to shut up don't rely on their art to survive or don't draw at all?


----------



## Kajet (Mar 19, 2015)

Varsha said:
			
		

> You are certainly right that the community members share a wide spectrum of content.
> 
> As to the question about future plans, they are exactly what we have stated in our announcements:
> 
> ...



I took this from the thread on IMVU's forums... and... Huh... sounds like something EA would say after they bought a company... You know before the purchased company fails to meet expectations and is immediately dissolved.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Isn't is strange how the ones crying about drama and telling everyone to shut up don't rely on their art to survive or don't draw at all?



Not necessarily, I've seen plenty of "popufur" artists who also claim nothing is wrong and therefore we're wrong. I wouldn't group everyone into associations other than those who believe these issues are silly and those who don't. That being said, these kind of resistance comes back from just how easy it is to ignore and dismiss the problem rather than bother to research and understand.

It's why a lot of those against Neer and the site come off as angry, they're upset over the lack of common sense and abundance of forgiveness people have.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Not necessarily, I've seen plenty of "popufur" artists who also claim nothing is wrong and therefore we're wrong.



Oh of course because they're the ones who receive special treatment from Dragoneer at the expense of others (Zaush comes to mind).


----------



## EGKangaroo (Mar 19, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> But that isn't true, he doesn't own every bit of the site and some legal issues could arise out of that.
> 
> Meanwhile, I've never much appreciated the flak people get for caring passionately about something, yes websites come and go, and that is because people let them. Not everyone wants to sit here and let our community be mucked around with, not if we can help it. Just because it doesn't personally affect you, doesn't mean the concern that later a problem could arise isn't there.



Huh, is this true? I'm kinda ignorant on details like this, but who else has ownership over parts of the site?


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 19, 2015)

EGKangaroo said:


> Huh, is this true? I'm kinda ignorant on details like this, but who else has ownership over parts of the site?



Pure speculation, but someone by the name of Arcturus will be seeking legal counsel soon as he claims he may own 50% of the site's code as he helped build it. As mentioned, pure speculation but interesting to note.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

EGKangaroo said:


> Huh, is this true? I'm kinda ignorant on details like this, but who else has ownership over parts of the site?



Arcturus co-owned the site with Jheryn when Jheryn sold the site to Dragoneer. Arcturus was never informed, paid, nor made part of the sale. Technically speaking, he still has a 50% stake in the site.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Arcturus co-owned the site with Jheryn when Jheryn sold the site to Dragoneer. Arcturus was never informed, paid, nor made part of the sale. Technically speaking, he still has a 50% stake in the site.


If thats the case, hello lawsuit.



TheArchiver said:


> Oh of course because they're the ones who receive special treatment from Dragoneer at the expense of others (Zaush comes to mind).


hehâ€¦ not anymore. At least that changes indirectly. Though I see some issues with these things. If this is a true "partnership" then is it a 50/50 split. If Neer is now Manager, what IMVU could do as a possible business venture is buyout Neer's position. Yes or no? 

No what happens to the current staff? Are all subsidiaries "fired?" As FAF is a separate unity I don't see that question being in effect here.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

Lesse. They had that big donation drive in October? Correct me if I'm wrong. And by the end of December the decision was made to sell. Apparently talks happened in December. But you know, I find it hard to believe that this was a decision that took merely a month to negotiate.  Ten bucks says Dragoneer knew of and was considering the deal when they did the donation drive.  

Or he took a mere month to decide that only two months after taking 10k of the uservase's money he would pass on ownership. 

On second thought, maybe an ownership change was more than needed. Maybe this is the better move and Dragoneer has realized that ownership of such a website was beyond him. Not knocking on him--just a statement of fact. 'Neer was, first and foremost, just a coder from the dA website. Some people aren't cut out for running a business (I certainly know I ain't)  and 'Neer probably realizes that. (As if 10k owed in back taxes wasn't an indicator anyhow) 


I guess on second thought I could give a hoot less. FA is the Walmart of furry sites. Everyone smack talks and criticizes it, and their business model is questionable at best, but at the end of the day everyone except the hipsters and well-to-dos use it anyways cause it's convenient and it's where most everyone is at.

 At this point it's only the userbase keeping me here. And a lot of other folk as well. So here's a hint: _don't piss off the userbase_. Cause I gurantee you it ain't the site functionality and sterling management practice that's keeping us here.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> If this is a true "partnership" then is it a 50/50 split. If Neer is now Manager, what IMVU could do as a possible business venture is buyout Neer's position. Yes or no?


There's no position to "buyout". Dragoneer is not a partner. He's an employee. IMVU owns 100% of FurAffinity. This talk of partnership is not relating to a business venture.

Incidentally, IMVU is backed by Best Buy Capital, which in a roundabout way makes Dragoneer a Best Buy employee.


----------



## Deo (Mar 19, 2015)

What the fuck 'Neer. Sell the site to a company known for being in beta for 10 years and full of malware? Does IMVU owning it at least mean that the dogfuckers and rapists will be removed from staff?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Deo said:


> a company known for being in beta for 10 years and full of malware


It almost sounds like you're trying to describe FurAffinity.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 19, 2015)

Not gonna lie, I laughed my ass of when I got the news. Then I realized the IMVU was still a thing and laughed harder.


----------



## Naesaki (Mar 19, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Not gonna lie, I laughed my ass of when I got the news. Then I realized the IMVU was still a thing and laughed harder.



I had a double dose of Irony when one of my irl friends just randomly mentions IMVU today because he wanted an outlet to chat to people on, and then it turned weird on him, I had to cover my face for several minutes before responding. "I didn't realise you went back to the mid 2000s"


----------



## Half-Note (Mar 19, 2015)

I've honestly never heard of this IMVU thing. What are they? Should I worry? >_>


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

Dog-likeDenis said:


> What are they?


Really sleazy chat client that advertises casinos and usually shows up in ads on the darker corners of the internet. A Second Life clone. Known primarily for its ugly as sin Bratz-style 3D models.



> Should I worry? >_>


Probably, but nobody really knows for sure what the future holds. All we know is that the site and everything to do with FurAffinity is wholly owned by them.


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 19, 2015)

Placing bets that Neer caves then LOL I WAS JKING APRIL FOOLZ LOLZ XD


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

Runefox said:


> There's no position to "buyout". Dragoneer is not a partner. He's an employee. IMVU owns 100% of FurAffinity. This talk of partnership is not relating to a business venture.
> 
> Incidentally, IMVU is backed by Best Buy Capital, which in a roundabout way makes Dragoneer a Best Buy employee.



So what is this partnership then? Why say Partnership if thats not what this is?

Thats kinda cool actually, I trust Best Buy


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> So what is this partnership then? Why say Partnership if thats not what this is?
> 
> Thats kinda cool actually, I trust Best Buy



Cause 'Partnership' sounds a lot better than 'I sold the site and I'm finally earning a salary via FA rather than having it be a financial sink'?


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 19, 2015)

Wiki says it's an acquisition.


----------



## nrr (Mar 19, 2015)

Congratulations, Dragoneer. You've made it.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Wiki says it's an acquisition.


Since when is Wiki ever a trusted source lol. But really, the choice of words for Partnership is dumb. Could actually cause a issue within a contract. But who knows.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 19, 2015)

In a partnership, you don't call your partner "boss". Also, the official announcement on both sides said "acquisition".


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 19, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Since when is Wiki ever a trusted source lol. But really, the choice of words for Partnership is dumb. Could actually cause a issue within a contract. But who knows.



Maybe not by itself, but these things typically have sources.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Maybe not by itself, but these things typically have sources.


Ok, so why use the word partnership, its just plain silly. I mean given reasons just say acquisition to not confuse everyone lol.


----------



## GemWolf (Mar 19, 2015)

doomed, we are all doomed.
we should quit now before shit hits the fan.

as I always say - don't stir the shit pot if you are not willing the lick the spoon


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 19, 2015)

FurryGemz said:


> don't stir the shit pot if you are not willing the lick the spoon



What a wonderfully disgusting saying.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> What a wonderfully disgusting saying.


We aren't up poopper creak without a paddle yet. We must wait and see.


----------



## GemWolf (Mar 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> What a wonderfully disgusting saying.



Hahah tis Aussie mate - all the way ;-)


----------



## Hewge (Mar 19, 2015)

Gross


----------



## Kesteh (Mar 19, 2015)

What about panderp? Didn't he have half ownership or representation of the site a while ago? Unless he signed that away or died he still has a say.
I'm curious as to what he has to say about this.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 19, 2015)

I think everyone should just cool their jets. No one can say for sure what will happen next. Just gotta sit and wait to see what happens.

No reason to panic.


----------



## Deleted member 93706 (Mar 20, 2015)

I admit that this decision frightens me, but I think that more good will come out of it than bad.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

Lol at all the white knights beginning to flood in.
First off: donation money. You guys said originally the money drive was put up before the DDOS. But now you said it was for the DDOS. This could mean several things, and I'm not very comfortable with it.

Second off: Dragoneer, I don't think you can sell a company without a 51% stake in it. Expect a lawsuit from that panderp guy. I don't even think what you did was legal.

Third: you may eventually want to step away from the site. What if it stops making money (actually, does it make any money for them?) and IMVU decides to let it go? Do you not realize how damaging this could be for the fandom?

Fourth: the fact that it seems you (allegedly) jumped into the contract without knowing much about it is scary. Whose to say our information won't be sold to third parties? I don't care what your reassurances may be, there could always be a "we reserve the right to make changes to this contract without notice" clause buried within. Companies like to do that.

On the other hand, perhaps this will be the best thing to happen to the furry fandom...ever. Maybe the fandom will be (partially) sanitized and all the creepy borderline illegal stuff will go back into the shadows where it belongs, you know, like how other fandoms operate. You never know.


----------



## Brass (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Soooo let me get this straight.
> 
> You took about 10k in donations to keep the site floating.
> 
> ...



DragonJERKed again folks. What's this I hear about you not telling your co-owners that you were selling the site? Is there going to be some crazy legal battle or something in the future? Can you dispelled these rumors?


----------



## Brass (Mar 20, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Yes, money to hire on coding support. Right now, we're fixing/upgrading FA's infrastructure to support larger file uploads (a new app server with 16-cores, full SSD and a storage server with 48TB of space). After that, investing resources into coding and technical support.



Are coding positions open to community members to apply for?


----------



## Atemis (Mar 20, 2015)

The fact that a false rumor about the contract rules was spread and Dragoneer originally defended that fake rule rather than debunk it immediately only confirms that he has absolutely no idea what was in the agreement in the first place.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

And apparently he doesn't own the entire site and nobody was notified: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hobmm1&s=8#.VQulZEY8Kc0


Any explanations? 

Inb4 thread lock or comment deletion.


----------



## Atemis (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> And apparently he doesn't own the entire site and nobody was notified: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hobmm1&s=8#.VQulZEY8Kc0
> 
> 
> Any explanations?
> ...


I would have kept that as a secret until the time was right, IMVU is a part of of the bestbuy family(?) so they might could hire a competent legal team.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> And apparently he doesn't own the entire site and nobody was notified: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hobmm1&s=8#.VQulZEY8Kc0


Which makes the second time that the site was sold without involving his input.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

http://www.imvu.com/about/

IMVU is funded by several large venture capital groups (some smaller ones too). Allegis Capital, Best Buy, Menlo Ventures, and Bridgescale. Big one is Best Buy.
So this means FA is at the whims of a large corporation, which has now swallowed a (compared to them unnoticeable but potentially worthless) poison pill. Bye bye FA. Or at least we will be forced to use Geek Squad for all of our FA technical issues/trouble tickets. The horror...

Even if these big companies have no say in IMVU, well, IMVU could see FA as worthless, too. "Not making enough money? Shut it down folks! Shut it down."


----------



## Delta (Mar 20, 2015)

Once more into rolling sea. Oh, how this ship creaks and groans!
Her passengers scamper to and fro, harkening to the heralds among them who howl of doom 
and weep of endless misfortune on the horizon. The ocean sweeps the decks and batters the hull with unrelenting disdain.
Few life boats launch, the majority still firmly secured to their fastenings. Fewer still actually row for safety. Most simply circle the scene,
returning when the walls of water give way to pestersome waves and the gale winds subside to a stiff breeze.
She's been sinking for years.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

In the end, none of it really matters. 

With IMNU behind FA, Pische is somewhat checked by a higher up. If IMNU is foolish and puts more malware and "pay to view" things on it, we can have a true exodus (as im sure actually paying for an anciently designed site like FA is out the question for most users.) 

Might not be good for FA, but it'll be great for furries.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 20, 2015)

Wait now, if Dragoneer is now an employee, he'll be drawing a wage. Which means that shouldn't staff now be paid as well? FA isn't a charity, despite appearances.


----------



## FireFeathers (Mar 20, 2015)

I swear to god I thought IMVU was something that happened in the early 00's, then faded out of existence. I just remember it being really hideous to look at and the faces being terrifying and having an uncanny valley like the Grand Canyon. Looking at the site, none of that's changed. So I'm already skeptical of them "Updating the site" if they're stuck in the age of "Hey ya" by Outkast. Sorta like if Deviantart was bought up by Walmart because they'd like to integrate their "small community atmosphere" Lies all around. I really hope this works out Dragoneer, but I am worried as beans. 

Seriously, diversifying your stuff on multiple sites keeps you from losing too much sleep over stuff like this. Tumblr, DA(to a point, i say that grudgingly because I think DA's a wasteland for commissions and anyone other than Lil' Sammy 12 year old looking at Second life screenshot porn) and even facebook to a point. Don't put all your eggs into IMVU's Low-poly basket.

God, what a weird thing to do. You sure you don't want to partner with Crest? Lots of these furries have teeth


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

FireFeathers said:


> I swear to god I thought IMVU was something that happened in the early 00's, then faded out of existence. I just remember it being really hideous to look at and the faces being terrifying and having an uncanny valley like the Grand Canyon. Looking at the site, none of that's changed. So I'm already skeptical of them "Updating the site" if they're stuck in the age of "Hey ya" by Outkast. Sorta like if Deviantart was bought up by Walmart because they'd like to integrate their "small community atmosphere" Lies all around. I really hope this works out Dragoneer, but I am worried as beans.
> 
> Seriously, diversifying your stuff on multiple sites keeps you from losing too much sleep over stuff like this. Tumblr, DA(to a point, i say that grudgingly because I think DA's a wasteland for commissions and anyone other than Lil' Sammy 12 year old looking at Second life screenshot porn) and even facebook to a point. Don't put all your eggs into IMVU's Low-poly basket.
> 
> God, what a weird thing to do. You sure you don't want to partner with Crest? Lots of these furries have teeth


He should partner up with Valve, a lot of furries use steam and play their games :V


----------



## FireFeathers (Mar 20, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> He should partner up with Valve, a lot of furries use steam and play their games :V



See, that'd I'd support. That's at least this decade.


----------



## NoahGryphon (Mar 20, 2015)

WTF >_> IMVU better not mess FA up or il do something.


----------



## Kesteh (Mar 20, 2015)

They will. They own it. These promises will fade just like the Tumblr ones. And the DA ones.


Until that 50% ownership thing gets settled...


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Runefox said:


> See the replies, where Dragoneer acknowledges it. Here, have a screencap: http://gyazo.com/908e9ac93bcd4243d05d577355b5b652





Taasla said:


> "IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded  to FurAffinity as agreed upon in page 9 of the terms of sale"
> 
> Er, what?  With credit?  You can't just give away our right to redistribution.





Really wondering about this. Glad I don't have any dogs in this fight, heh.


----------



## KAtojana (Mar 20, 2015)

soooo. So far 90% is speculation, 8% is drama and 2% is backed information.
*munches popcorn*
nice how many rumors pop up in one night. Why would the 50% thing be discussed publicly? don't you people think, that the people in question would be able to, you know, handle it themselves??
I honestly never cared about IMVU. And I probably won't in the future. Nobody of us can look into the future. Nobody. It could come out as a good thing, it could come out as a bad thing, it could change nothing at all. so... yeah. do whatever you want. leave, stay or travel to a distant galaxy. All up to you ;3

Oh and so far I see really only 3~4 people here in the thread "spamming" it and demanding stuff. Strange.


----------



## FireFeathers (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Really wondering about this. Glad I don't have any dogs in this fight, heh.



This is essentially a clause that allows for them to represent their site through advertising. DA has the exact same thing. It essentially is "If we're at a convention, and we have a monitor showing off DA"s fabulous artwork, we can use your artwork for advertising purposes" That's how you get their news articles that have someone's deviation on it, which they tend to be nice enough to site.  It's not the greatest thing, but it's essentially allowing them to show off the capabilities of their site. They're not directly stealing your artwork and they're not allowing anyone to steal your artwork *unless someone gets really persistent and takes a picture of their advertisement, then nabs your tiny ass cluster of pixels representing your image, then makes something from that*.

Essentially, post stuff online, this is unavoidable. That being said, it's pretty benign. It's like if you had a table at some small-town art show and your mom took a picture of you at your table. You're not going to go after your mom for having your wares in that picture because you think she owns them now.


----------



## GemWolf (Mar 20, 2015)

So what can we do about this? Isn't there something we can do? Surly we all get some sort of say in what happens to the site. Afterall, without any of us, there never would have been an FA in the first place!


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Yes, money to hire on coding support. Right now, we're fixing/upgrading FA's infrastructure to support larger file uploads (a new app server with 16-cores, full SSD and a storage server with 48TB of space). After that, investing resources into coding and technical support.



Okay maybe I'm misunderstanding this (please let me know if I am, I'm not the best with technological shit)
Why is it so important that we get "larger file uploads" instead of other, more important updates? Surely we don't need to have bedroom-wall resolution images of furry porn instead of things like.. hiring coders to up site security?



Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> Most of you guys are freakin ridiculous. As the previous owner of the site, he has complete and full rights to do whatever he damn wants with it.


There's always at least one of you guys hangin' around...
False.
"It's not a democracy- it is *his* personal *property*"
"As the *previous* owner of the site"



Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> We get that you guys have set up your own commission businesses and you may feel like you have a big place in the site, but at the end of the day it was his site. Why? It's really none of our business.


Do I need to explain why people are mad about the lack of transparency here? Some people literally make a *living* off of their commissions on FA. They *need* transparency. I don't use the site, post art on it, or do commissions on it. I'm speaking as if I was in the position of someone who makes a living off of FA's commissions, and I suggest you do the same.



Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> The statements he has made so far are entirely for our benefit


*WHAT STATEMENT*. Nothing he has said has been anything but weasel words.



Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> Do I trust the donation set up? Nah- so I don't donate.


You're brown-nosing real hard for someone who doesn't even trust the damn site.



Queen-Cheetah93 said:


> Have you seen Neopets? Myspace? Deviantart? All these have changed dramatically over the years and their users either stayed or left.


I don't know what's up with NeoPets but Myspace is dead and Deviantart is known for being a horrible website. This sale was made in January, by the way.



FireFeathers said:


> This is essentially a clause that allows for them to represent their site through advertising. DA has the exact same thing. It essentially is "If we're at a convention, and we have a monitor showing off DA"s fabulous artwork, we can use your artwork for advertising purposes" That's how you get their news articles that have someone's deviation on it, which they tend to be nice enough to site.  It's not the greatest thing, but it's essentially allowing them to show off the capabilities of their site. They're not directly stealing your artwork and they're not allowing anyone to steal your artwork *unless someone gets really persistent and takes a picture of their advertisement, then nabs your tiny ass cluster of pixels representing your image, then makes something from that*.
> 
> Essentially, post stuff online, this is unavoidable. That being said, it's pretty benign. It's like if you had a table at some small-town art show and your mom took a picture of you at your table. You're not going to go after your mom for having your wares in that picture because you think she owns them now.


Thank you!


----------



## Keefur (Mar 20, 2015)

I don't get drawn into these things too often.  This is a graymuzzle's take on this.  You have to ask yourself questions of motive.  I can understand 'Neer selling something sucking away all his cash.   From what I've been reading, I hope he owns 100% of FA and not just half.  If he only owns half, that could turn FA, 'neer, and everyone involved into financial wrecks, and may even put someone behind bars.  Whether or not 'neer is running the show is kind of irrelevant at this point because he no longer OWNS the show.  I won't hypothesize on the contract that hasn't/can't be shared with the Fandom.  As far as transparency and trust, those are personal questions you can answer for yourselves.  THAT being said, I have thought out a few things that don't pass the smell test on this aquisition.

A. Why wait so long to make such a supposedly "good" thing public?  Two months?  Really?  I could see it if there was some kind of cool new thing unveiled for the site... maybe.  I haven't seen any cool new things show up lately though.
B. Why would a corporation buy something that is a known money sink hole unless they had plans to turn it around somehow.  Things HAVE to be changed for the site to make money.  I don't buy into the "we're doing it for the Furry community" spiel.  You have to follow the money, and corporations are single minded on this subject.
C. Why the non disclosure agreement unless there was something to hide?  An NDA is not unusual, but a blanket blackout is only there to hide something they don't want you to know.  You would think that IMVU would have a presence here on FA to take care of the inevitable questions that would/are coming in.  They had two months to consider this.  There should at least be some official statement from IMVU here since they now own the site.  It seems amazingly convenient that the only person from IMVU here says he legally can't answer questions.
Conclusion:  Shenanigans!  
Support for conclusion:  They claim to want to support the Furry Fandom.  Not just why, but how?  How could a corporation justify purchasing and running an admittedly money losing site to their shareholders?  There is some way they are going to squeeze FA to make it profitable.  To think otherwise is just hopeless optimism.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Keefur said:


> B. Why would a corporation buy something that is a known money sink hole unless they had plans to turn it around somehow.  Things HAVE to be changed for the site to make money.  I don't buy into the "we're doing it for the Furry community" spiel.  You have to follow the money, and corporations are single minded on this subject.


This is just my speculation, but I assume that IMVU knows about how popular FA is and wanted to exploit this to make money off of ads. They don't have to have any interest in the site, it's userbase, content, etc. As long as they can put their ads up on "one of the top 1,500 sites in America", I'm sure they'd do it.



Keefur said:


> An NDA is not unusual, but a blanket blackout is only there to hide something they don't want you to know.


What's weird to me about this is that Dragoneer was going around talking about how IMVU said this and that and no art will be taken or redistributed, etc... but the second someone asks to actually see the document that says this, he clams up.



Keefur said:


> Support for conclusion:  They claim to want to support the Furry Fandom.  Not just why, but how?


It's my understanding that there's quite a large furry base on IMVU to begin with (similar to Second Life)


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

Keefur said:


> A. Why wait so long to make such a supposedly "good" thing public?  Two months?  Really?  I could see it if there was some kind of cool new thing unveiled for the site... maybe.  I haven't seen any cool new things show up lately though.



I must admit, this is perhaps the most damning thing of all. Management gloated for so long about transparency...and just look at this mess. Users don't react such a way when the site runners are honest and trust worthy. They just don't. 

I rather doubt IMVU is observing the thread, but imagine if you were the person who was responsible for the new acquisition. Would you feel confident in how things are going? I wouldn't. I'd be a bit worried that things can't be handled correctly. And in business that's nooooooo good. 

In short, lies do not become gentleman. And transparency is something of an in-joke these days.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I must admit, this is perhaps the most damning thing of all. Management gloated for so long about transparency...and just look at this mess. Users don't react such a way when the site runners are honest and trust worthy. They just don't.
> 
> I rather doubt IMVU is observing the thread, but imagine if you were the person who was responsible for the new acquisition. Would you feel confident in how things are going? I wouldn't. I'd be a bit worried that things can't be handled correctly. And in business that's nooooooo good.
> 
> In short, lies do not become gentleman. And transparency is something of an in-joke these days.



Dragoneer's definition of transparency is laughable.



> This is just my speculation, but I assume that IMVU knows about how  popular FA is and wanted to exploit this to make money off of ads. They  don't have to have any interest in the site, it's userbase, content,  etc. As long as they can put their ads up on "one of the top 1,500 sites  in America", I'm sure they'd do it.



Just because they're popular, doesn't mean they're profitable. FA has had issues with funding for years, the only way they can turn things around and not lose money on this deal with be to capitalize on it.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> It's my understanding that there's quite a large furry base on IMVU to begin with (similar to Second Life)



This one always makes me laugh, as my friend says "Just cause you have a biggest dog in the small dog club, doesnt really mean its a big dog"


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Hrmmmm if this thing with Arcturus owning part of FA is true (which I believe it is because I've heard about this before), IMVU will probably pull out or buy out their share. If they pull out, FA is most likely dead.

Read and share the agreement please. Transparency!


----------



## Keefur (Mar 20, 2015)

If FA were making money off of ads now, they wouldn't need to be sold, and I doubt that the mingling of IMVU and FA is going to change the ad view situation much.  To increase ad revenue, I can only see a few options here.  Add more ads per page, increase ad cost, and/or spam the users with ads.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

Keefur said:


> If FA were making money off of ads now, they wouldn't need to be sold, and I doubt that the mingling of IMVU and FA is going to change the ad view situation much.  To increase ad revenue, I can only see a few options here.  Add more ads per page, increase ad cost, and/or spam the users with ads.


which just further push folks to turn on their Adblock, I have it off on FA and have specifically targeted the IMVU ads to be blocked by adblock...which I'm sure Neer's boss wouldnt like that :V


----------



## Accountability (Mar 20, 2015)

Oh. Well.



Dragoneer said:


> Q: I heard/read IMVU has the right to repost my content and use it however they want?
> A: "Fur Affinity is governed by the site's terms of use, not Google's, Apple's or IMVU's." - IMVU
> 
> Rest assured, IMVU is *NOT* taking FA content, redistributing it, reposting it, using it in-game, etc. It's your content. Only FA has the right to show it if you upload it to the site. No one else.
> ...





Dragoneer said:


> It won't affect anyone OTHER than they will will put a few ads on the site and heavily invest into the site with new hardware and resources to help us make FA the site it's always needed to be.





Dragoneer said:


> 2) Nope. Nobody from IMVU has DB or admin access to the site or forums.





Dragoneer said:


> Discussion took place at the end of Dec/beginning of Jan



Look at all these words, coming from someone who has had a ten year history of his words meaning absolutely nothing.

Dragoneer, I used to think you were a moron. But it's pretty obvious now you're just stupid. You do realize you no longer own the site, right? You're interaction with this site is at the whim of IMVU. You have as much control as they will let you. Do you really believe they're "investment" in the site is coming from "a few ads"? That whatever terms they have included in the contract you clearly didn't pay that much attention to prevent them from doing simple things like accessing the site code? Really? 

And let's be fair. Removing you _would be_ "improving FA".

If I were you, I'd be preparing a quick and quiet exit from this fandom. Things aren't going to go your way, whether it be now or in a year. Do you think your "boss" is going to keep you around when you botch the next poor staffing decision? 



Dragoneer said:


> The money went into FA and was used to help mitigate the DDOSes and purchase the reward items (which are going out within the next few days). And the DDOS attacks which hit the site before occurred a few months prior, but was unrelated.



Let me get this straight... You needed donations... to buy the rewards... for said donations...

We're all fucked.


----------



## Keefur (Mar 20, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> which just further push folks to turn on their Adblock, I have it off on FA and have specifically targeted the IMVU ads to be blocked by adblock...which I'm sure Neer's boss wouldnt like that :V



It won't help if you're paying more for ads.  This figures.  I was just considering running ads for my print shop. Meh!


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Accountability said:


> Oh. Well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks more to me like you can't read.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Pheagle, the difference between brown-nosing and ass-kissing is depth-perception. Have you got your eyes checked lately?

Seriously, man. You white-knight the crap out of the staff, the site, and Neer whenever some criticism or questioning is brought up *every time* like clockwork. Like the migration of Canadian Geese.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Canadian Geese.



 It'd make a cuter sona even!


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Pheagle, the difference between brown-nosing and ass-kissing is depth-perception. Have you got your eyes checked lately?
> 
> Seriously, man. You white-knight the crap out of the staff, the site, and Neer whenever some criticism or questioning is brought up *every time* like clockwork. Like the migration of Canadian Geese.



Check your manners at the door, bud? Try reading this thread, not on FA, no input from Dragoneer, so you shouldn't have any reason to doubt: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283354

Maybe you're the one who needs their eyes checked, or maybe you shouldn't just assume everything Dragoneer says is a lie.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Check your manners at the door, bud? Try reading this thread, not on FA, no input from Dragoneer, so you shouldn't have any reason to doubt: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283354
> 
> Maybe you're the one who needs their eyes checked, or maybe you shouldn't just assume everything Dragoneer says is a lie.



I'm not accusing Dragoneer of lying. I'm asking for transparency like everybody else. We want to see the agreement that he signed and want to know how this will affect users and artists alike.
Criticism is perfectly fine and expected in a situation like this, Dragoneer is an adult and can answer questions himself without someone coming to his aid every time taking shots at people for asking simple questions.


----------



## Duality Jack (Mar 20, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> It'd make a cuter sona even!


Those fuckers are assholes. Geese will fuck you up given the chance. Not a joke.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

Jack Arclight said:


> Those fuckers are assholes. Geese will fuck you up given the chance. Not a joke.



The ones that come near my house are quite docile...for wild animals that is. XD I know they aren't lap poodles.


----------



## Anakarr (Mar 20, 2015)

Thanks for discussing this with the people that are on and support the site...jerk... Guess I'll be finding a new community. I hate IMVU. Its a terrible program run by an incompetent company...


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Check your manners at the door, bud? Try reading this thread, not on FA, no input from Dragoneer, so you shouldn't have any reason to doubt: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283354
> 
> Maybe you're the one who needs their eyes checked, or maybe you shouldn't just assume everything Dragoneer says is a lie.



I have to agree with the above, not Pheagle's words but the fact he is a kiss ass. I've seen you front and center every time! And yes, it is safe to assume everything Neer says is a lie, he has been spewing lies non stop for a decade now. Also yes, the company says they won't do the bad thing, a company would never lie to anyone either right? They're giving FA 20K in resources, and bringing in new coders for what ... ad space? Surely this is an investment where everyone wins! They're being generous because they want to be! They have no ulterior motive here what so ever.

What I want to know is, where is Yak in all this? FA hasn't gotten code changes because of him, so is he going to play nice with the IMVU team? Oh, and speaking of lies my Dragoneer told me, I'll just refer to this.

http://new.spring.me/#!/dragoneer/q/207732784



> Look, you can't afford FA. You can't. Why? Because whatever offer you'd  make to me you'd have to make to each and every staff member on this  website.
> 
> I'm not like other furry guys - I'm not here to take all  the credit from my staff to boost my appeal, I'm not here to profit  where they won't. Maybe you're looking for Certain Other Popular  Furries(tm).
> 
> Whatever offer you'd make to me you'd have to make to every other admin, mod and coder.



I happen to know some of the staff, I don't think they got paid ;3


----------



## Duality Jack (Mar 20, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> The ones that come near my house are quite docile...for wild animals that is. XD I know they aren't lap poodles.


Oh yeah depends on if it's mating season or they have kids. Those fuckers are like bears around that time. Ducks, are just a bit nippy, but a goose will try to break your leg.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I'm not accusing Dragoneer of lying. I'm asking for transparency like everybody else. We want to see the agreement that he signed and want to know how this will affect users and artists alike.
> Criticism is perfectly fine and expected in a situation like this, Dragoneer is an adult and can answer questions himself without someone coming to his aid every time taking shots at people for asking simple questions.



You're welcome to criticize, calling me a kiss-ass is uncalled for.




Rowedahelicon said:


> I have to agree with the above, not Pheagle's words but the fact he is a kiss ass. I've seen you front and center every time! And yes, it is safe to assume everything Neer says is a lie, he has been spewing lies non stop for a decade now. Also yes, the company says they won't do the bad thing, a company would never lie to anyone either right? They're giving FA 20K in resources, and bringing in new coders for what ... ad space? Surely this is an investment where everyone wins! They're being generous because they want to be! They have no ulterior motive here what so ever.





Rowedahelicon said:


> What I want to know is, where is Yak in all this? FA hasn't gotten code changes because of him, so is he going to play nice with the IMVU team? Oh, and speaking of lies my Dragoneer told me, I'll just refer to this.
> 
> http://new.spring.me/#!/dragoneer/q/207732784
> 
> ...




Again, try to remain civil. I don't assume Dragoneer is lying, I don't assume that of anyone, until I have solid proof. I'm sorry, that's how justice works.

Don't ask me if there's anything going on behind the scenes, I'm just quoting directly from the horse's mouth...either horse at this point, if you will. It's better than making up shit just because you're suspicious of the whole thing.

You call me a kiss-ass, maybe I have this little thing called "manners" try using them sometime.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> You're welcome to criticize, calling me a kiss-ass is uncalled for.



My apologies, it was out of line.
Do you have any thoughts, concerns, or criticisms about this sale, discussion, transparency, and what it might entail for IMVU and FA?


----------



## Inpw (Mar 20, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> Second off: Dragoneer, I don't think you can sell a company without a 51% stake in it. Expect a lawsuit from that panderp guy. I don't even think what you did was legal.



Just leaving this here for now:

https://twitter.com/panderp/status/578706116458242048


----------



## Duality Jack (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> You call me a kiss-ass, maybe I have this little thing called "manners" try using them sometime.


Eh You only arrive when Neer is being criticised and defend him while ignoring key points. Also asking people to use manners online makes you seem a tad er... unaware of how differing social environments operate.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> You're welcome to criticize, calling me a kiss-ass is uncalled for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay kiss-ass, thanks for the permission! Anyway, I won't ask you that, I do know what is going on behind the scenes therefore I can speak freely as someone concerned over what is going on. And do you want solid proof, what about what I linked above?


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> My apologies, it was out of line.
> Do you have any thoughts, concerns, or criticisms about this sale, discussion, transparency, and what it might entail for IMVU and FA?



Well, I'd honestly like to see what happens, after all it's gone unnoticed for two whole months, and for that I think there should have been more transparency. I think the public should be allowed to know how much the sale was for, but I do think the money will Neer support the site. I do not want the site to become like deviantart, I'm not sure how this ad thing will play out. I can see that maybe it's possible that they're trying to gain a bigger audience by advertising on one of the largest furry art sites in the world...I'm not sure how many people here use Adblock though. At least I keep mine turned off on the site, but for the most part, I don't like banner ads.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Thank you! 
Though I must clarify, it's not that the sale went "unnoticed", it's my understanding that it went _unannounced_ for this long.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Okay kiss-ass, thanks for the permission! Anyway, I won't ask you that, I do know what is going on behind the scenes therefore I can speak freely as someone concerned over what is going on. And do you want solid proof, what about what I linked above?



Well, what proof is that if as far as we (or he) knows, he still controls the site? I'd like to get it in writing who exactly owns the site, and what percentage.



Volkodav said:


> Thank you!
> Though I must clarify, it's not that the sale went "unnoticed", it's my understanding that it went _unannounced_ for this long.



Well yes, that's a better word.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> You're welcome to criticize, calling me a kiss-ass is uncalled for.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, try to remain civil.



Hmmm. Not a kissass? Wanting others to act sweet? Not assuming people are liars? That's not how you present yourself here or anywhere else discussing fa stuffs. 

Don't ask for a double standard.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Hmmm. Not a kissass? Wanting others to act sweet? Not assuming people are liars? That's not how you present yourself here or anywhere else discussing fa stuffs.
> 
> Don't ask for a double standard.



hahaha


----------



## FoxWolfie (Mar 20, 2015)

Keefur said:


> Add more ads per page, increase ad cost, and/or spam the users with ads.



This is an area that is almost sure to backfire.  If IMVU loads FA up with ads that are not directly relevant to furries, they'll find that everyone is AdBlocking them instead of clicking on them.  If they place more ads here than content, they'll get the same response.  If they try to turn this site into nothing more than a commercial for their virtual products, people will actually leave and stay away.  If they mess up what FA is, and what keeps us here, people will simply migrate to Weasyl, SoFurry and Inkbunny, depending on their preferences. Many of us already have an additional account on one or more of those sites.  If they actually fix what's broken here, give us only malware-free, furry-related ads, and leave everything else under the control of a furry, then people will stay, and the site can thrive. Unfortunately, that path doesn't profit IMVU in any way that I can see.

According to their own page, IMVU's main source of income is in selling their virtual products, and their page pretty much shows the sort of spammy, malware-infested ads they'd be feeding us.  I think that they'll realize that they made a mistake buying FA, when the members aren't forking over the money that IMVU thinks they can spam out of us.  In another year or two, they might even try to re-sell FA to cut their losses, or they'll change FA until it's gone.  I could be wrong, but that's what looking at and reading through their material tells me.

No matter what people think of Dragoneer, and no matter what they think of his abilities, he is a furry who put everything he knew into making this site work and survive.  Even if his methods were questioned, his intentions were good.  Now the site is in the hands of a non-furry company that can care less about what's best for furries. We are nothing more than a potential revenue source to them. Anything they do to fix the site is going to be directly for their benefit, and not that of the furry community.  The furry fandom and community is completely unimportant to them, outside of their ability to pull money out of us.

Sadly, I think Dragoneer is going to be in tears when he sees the reality of what IMVU is likely to turn FA into.  The more I look into them, the more it hurts to think about.  The furry community is strong though, and no matter what IMVU ultimately does to FA, the fans will spread out to the handful of other furry sites, and the community will still thrive.  Weasyl, Inkbunny and SoFurry would just grow to accommodate the need when the time comes. Other sites would likely form too, but what FA was would always hold a special place in my heart.


----------



## Keefur (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Well, I'd honestly like to see what happens, after all it's gone unnoticed for two whole months, and for that I think there should have been more transparency. I think the public should be allowed to know how much the sale was for, but I do think the money will Neer support the site. I do not want the site to become like deviantart, I'm not sure how this ad thing will play out. I can see that maybe it's possible that they're trying to gain a bigger audience by advertising on one of the largest furry art sites in the world...I'm not sure how many people here use Adblock though. At least I keep mine turned off on the site, but for the most part, I don't like banner ads.



I have to disagree with the posting of the sale price.  If 'neer truly completely owns the site, then it is strictly his business what he sold it for.  I also have to disagree with your supposition that it is possible they want a bigger furry audience by buying FA when they simply could have purchased ads much cheaper.  They are now on the hook for site costs and payroll.  There has to be a positive cash flow somehow that isn't happening now.  I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283602#11283602


Hmmmm


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Hmmm. Not a kissass? Wanting others to act sweet? Not assuming people are liars? That's not how you present yourself here or anywhere else discussing fa stuffs.
> 
> Don't ask for a double standard.



Oh, sure, because that guy totally wasn't asking for it? I know of him and his rocky history with the site. It was all I could do to avoid throwing a string of expletives at him.


----------



## Keefur (Mar 20, 2015)

I agree with you completely, Foxwolfie.  I forsee a huge kickstarter to create a "new" FA.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Keefur said:


> I have to disagree with the posting of the sale price.  If 'neer truly completely owns the site, then it is strictly his business what he sold it for.  I also have to disagree with your supposition that it is possible they want a bigger furry audience by buying FA when they simply could have purchased ads much cheaper.  They are now on the hook for site costs and payroll.  There has to be a positive cash flow somehow that isn't happening now.  I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.



Okay, that's a reasonable point, but how in the world can you get positive cash flow with an art site?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Oh, sure, because that guy totally wasn't asking for it? I know of him and his rocky history with the site. It was all I could do to avoid throwing a string of expletives at him.



Whatever Arc's history with the site is, that doesn't justify selling part of their property without their permission.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 20, 2015)

Inpw said:


> Just leaving this here for now:
> 
> https://twitter.com/panderp/status/578706116458242048


That's bullshit... well I now what this will become. Now I understand the secrecy... reminds me of the Facebook thing though.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Whatever Arc's history with the site is, that doesn't justify selling part of their property without their permission.



What does he actually own at this point, I'd very much like to know.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> What does he actually own at this point, I'd very much like to know.



He claims to own part of the original code. 



> Okay, that's a reasonable point, but how in the world can you get positive cash flow with an art site?



Go look at how Deviantart does it.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283602#11283602
> 
> 
> Hmmmm



I do like how the IMVU users are saying how bad things are from their side.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> He claims to own part of the original code.
> 
> 
> 
> Go look at how Deviantart does it.



He "claims" so what are we supposed to do? Examine lines and lines of code to find the piece he owns?
Plus, if all he owns is code, he'll be SOL once (if?) Project Phoenix gets off the ground.

I don't want to look at deviantart. Not a fan of their format, it seems too bloated and commercial.


----------



## Daesyn (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> And apparently he doesn't own the entire site and nobody was notified: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hobmm1&s=8#.VQulZEY8Kc0
> 
> 
> Any explanations?
> ...



If this ends in a legal battle I would be willing to bet money that Dragoneer gets fired by IMVU _at the very least_.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> He "claims" so what are we supposed to do? Examine lines and lines of code to find the piece he owns?
> Plus, if all he owns is code, he'll be SOL once (if?) Project Phoenix gets off the ground.
> 
> I don't want to look at deviantart. Not a fan of their format, it seems too bloated and commercial.



Project Phoenix is never getting off the ground, I was there. Also





> "too bloated and *commercial*".



*HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Also it is very easy to compare code, FA hasn't changed all that much in 10 years, so a lot of things at this point are probably carbon copy.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 20, 2015)

http://t.co/crXROXwSId

If there is a lawsuit, that causes issues for all. Site could go offline during the duration. But the hell do I know lol.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> http://t.co/crXROXwSId
> 
> If there is a lawsuit, that causes issues for all. Site could go offline during the duration. But the hell do I know lol.



That's still a big IF...the lawsuit I mean.


----------



## Draconas (Mar 20, 2015)

Looking around on wikifur, I am seeing that arcturus did indeed own part of FA before neer took ownership, doing some really hard digging however yields nothing else to whether or not if he lost his portion of ownership before this incident, and funny enough http://web.archive.org/web/http://furaffinity.net doesn't work, kinda sad honestly, I remembered browsing archives pre-neer


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Draconas said:


> Looking around on wikifur, I am seeing that arcturus did indeed own part of FA before neer took ownership, doing some really hard digging however yields nothing else to whether or not if he lost his portion of ownership before this incident, and funny enough http://web.archive.org/web/http://furaffinity.net doesn't work, kinda sad honestly, I remembered browsing archives pre-neer



Him and I talked about it months ago, he said he was shafted the first time it was sold, which is why he doesn't really appreciate Neer.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> What does he actually own at this point, I'd very much like to know.


I'm in a place where I can't really research this for a few hours. What content is he claiming, code?

If so, and if he sues, there's no way he will win a court case because the site was OWNED by Ferrox Art LLC, and by definition this means the code anyone ever produces for the site too (unless there was a contractual agreement beforehand).

And of course Dragoneer was the CEO of Ferrox Art, so he can literally do whatever he wants with it.


----------



## Half-Note (Mar 20, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Really sleazy chat client that advertises casinos and usually shows up in ads on the darker corners of the internet. A Second Life clone. Known primarily for its ugly as sin Bratz-style 3D models.
> 
> 
> Probably, but nobody really knows for sure what the future holds. All we know is that the site and everything to do with FurAffinity is wholly owned by them.


Better keep the window open then, in case I'll need a quick escape.


----------



## Ieono (Mar 20, 2015)

I would have sold the site too if someone was signing me a big fat check to do so. Especially with the way people sling shit at the (previous) owner. Fame isn't all it's knocked up to be; sometimes you just say "fuck everyone" and do something for yourself.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> I'm in a place where I can't really research this for a few hours. What content is he claiming, code?
> 
> If so, and if he sues, there's no way he will win a court case because the site was OWNED by Ferrox Art LLC, and by definition this means the code anyone ever produces for the site too (unless there was a contractual agreement beforehand).
> 
> And of course Dragoneer was the CEO of Ferrox Art, so he can literally do whatever he wants with it.



I do believe it was code, so that explains that. More specifically, what he's saying on Twitter is this


			
				panderp said:
			
		

> For those wondering: I wrote a lot of FA and agreed to fund it in the early days in exchange for an equal share of it with Jheryn. 50%.



I should add that if this is true, Alkora (Jheryn) is at fault for selling it to Neer 7 years ago, without consulting Arcturus.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/225126/

There is no mention of the 50% in this journal. If he did say it, he was either lying or took it back.


----------



## Hisu (Mar 20, 2015)

So let's SUPPOSE Neer doesn't plan to cash out and run. You know the alternative? Of course you do. I'll spell it out, just in case:

*Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish.*


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Hisu said:


> So let's SUPPOSE Neer doesn't plan to cash out and run. You know the alternative? Of course you do. I'll spell it out, just in case:
> 
> *Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish.*



...and do it in large print? No, I don't really know why that would be an alternative anyway. Just humor me for a second, if they do end up improving the site with this help, we won't see any of what you said.

I didn't say it was likely now, but I would like to see what the site does with this kind of support.


----------



## Draconas (Mar 20, 2015)

I see that the original FA founder has deleted everything of his and basically left, you know shit is very fucking wrong when this happens.


----------



## SirRob (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283602#11283602
> 
> 
> Hmmmm


Even they are worried for us, that's not good


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 20, 2015)

You know, at some point pretty soon, some guy in a suit - who has no idea what the hell FA is - will going to be looking at the figures for the end of the second quarter, and wonder who the fuck spent a bunch of resources on something that has given them almost zero ROI.  Eventually, someone is going to have to justify the amount of time and money being spent on keeping FA alive when it offers nothing in return, in economic terms. When no one can supply that justification, they will be told to either shut it down or make it profitable, and the guys at the top won't give a single shit about some backwater "community" they've never heard of. All they'll see is a red number on their pretty charts, and want it to be green.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 20, 2015)

Time to break out my forum account, which hasn't been used since 2012.

It looks like 'neer finally and completely fucked up everything this time. I hope you guys like big, faceless, unaccountable corporations, because FA is now a part of one!

I would personally like to thank 'neer for his selfless support of the site for all of these years. FA never would have been ruined if it weren't for all of his hard work.


----------



## miyevskr (Mar 20, 2015)

Draconas said:


> Looking around on wikifur, I am seeing that arcturus did indeed own part of FA before neer took ownership, doing some really hard digging however yields nothing else to whether or not if he lost his portion of ownership before this incident, and funny enough http://web.archive.org/web/http://furaffinity.net doesn't work, kinda sad honestly, I remembered browsing archives pre-neer


That would've required a long reach back to FA1 "before the big crash". 

Arcturus wasn't quite in at the very start - the first few days/weeks were hectic - but I know the overall story as I put in the initial funds to bankroll FA properly off the ground, as one of the best apparent options on the table for the fandom in the midst of the Sheezy fiasco, and kept a close eye on how things developed with code/tech platform/finances thereafter.
There were a good number of us who were generally "keeping quiet" in the (very fraught) transition to Dragoneer in the hope that things would somehow work out for the community despite there being better offers around even that time, IMO.

(Heck, we even got to keep our "Where freedom of expression reigns" tagline for a while, too. That was a major selling point, way back ).


----------



## Draconas (Mar 20, 2015)

miyevskr said:


> That would've required a long reach back to FA1 "before the big crash".


if the robots.txt didn't cockblock the archives, it would've shown everything tbh, hell it went as far as when the site's first day, iirc it was very blue-ish and black, and the big crash portion was mostly filtered out, except the days where the image went down/updated on the site.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> What does he actually own at this point, I'd very much like to know.



Arcturus provided coding support and financial backing during the early days in exchange for a 50% stake. When Jheryn sold FA to Dragoneer, Arc was not involved in the sale and saw none of the money. Ergo, Dragoneer only ever owned 50% of FurAffinity to begin with, and now IMVU only owns 50%. That's what it all boils down to.

Also, Pheagle, maybe you should look up the definition of "burden of proof" sometime. Justice has a way of requiring you to back up what you say with documentation before you're taken seriously. Of course, I already know you know that, because you're questioning Arcturus' claims while blindly accepting Dragoneer's.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Draconas said:


> I see that the original FA founder has deleted everything of his and basically left, you know shit is very fucking wrong when this happens.



Yeah, well maybe people should be pissed at him if they hate Dragoneer so much, because he's the one who agreed to sell to Neer. If I were Arcturus, and I were promised 50%, I certainly wouldn't have been too pleased with what he did.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Arcturus provided coding support and financial backing during the early days in exchange for a 50% stake. When Jheryn sold FA to Dragoneer, Arc was not involved in the sale and saw none of the money. Ergo, Dragoneer only ever owned 50% of FurAffinity to begin with, and now IMVU only owns 50%. That's what it all boils down to.
> 
> Also, Pheagle, maybe you should look up the definition of "burden of proof" sometime. Justice has a way of requiring you to back up what you say with documentation before you're taken seriously. Of course, I already know you know that, because you're questioning Arcturus' claims while blindly accepting Dragoneer's.



I'm not accepting anything without proof, not sure where you're pulling that from.

Alkora sold FA, the journal doesn't say HALF of FA, it says FA. So if it is half, he really should have specified.


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 20, 2015)

Gee Pheagle your are still not getting this at all. Why are you still commenting anyway?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm not accepting anything without proof, not sure where you're pulling that from.





PheagleAdler said:


> I don't assume Dragoneer is lying, I don't assume that of anyone, until I have solid proof. I'm sorry, that's how justice works.


Right around there. Also, that's not how justice works. Burden of proof. If someone told you that they came here on a meteor from the Kepler belt, you wouldn't believe them unless you had proof. If you don't believe them, you're assuming they're lying (or in this case stark raving mad but you get the idea).



> Alkora sold FA, the journal doesn't say HALF of FA, it says FA. So if it is half, he really should have specified.


I'm saying the sale was not legal if Arcturus' part of the story is true.


----------



## miyevskr (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I should add that if this is true, Alkora (Jheryn) is at fault for selling it to Neer 7 years ago, without consulting Arcturus.
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/225126/
> 
> There is no mention of the 50% in this journal. If he did say it, he was either lying or took it back.


Heh; I'd actually forgotten the aside with Arcturus on that thread.

I'll reiterate the matter of that being a fraught transition. The relevant parties know why.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Right around there. Also, that's not how justice works. Burden of proof. If someone told you that they came here on a meteor from the Kepler belt, you wouldn't believe them unless you had proof. If you don't believe them, you're assuming they're lying (or in this case stark raving mad but you get the idea).
> 
> 
> I'm saying the sale was not legal if Arcturus' part of the story is true.



Alright, you caught me, if it doesn't seem like something's off, I'll go with it. Stuff like "I came here on a meteor" definitely requires proof.

Honestly, I think Dragoneer wants to improve the site. I'm not quite sure he has the drive (or monetary support, at least until now). And I'm hopeful for change. Does that make me a horrible person?

The sale, yes I am aware of what you are saying, but how can one even prove they own a portion of the code? I know at least some of it has changed too. So he certainly can't claim the entirety of it.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 20, 2015)

Piche has made many, many similar statements to that effect in the past, but props to Viv for finding this particularly demonstrative one.







If he just had the right connected family, he would've had a great career in Washington.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Piche has made many, many similar statements to that effect in the past, but props to Viv for finding this particularly demonstrative one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."


----------



## Runefox (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> The sale, yes I am aware of what you are saying, but how can one even prove they own a portion of the code? I know at least some of it has changed too. So he certainly can't claim the entirety of it.


It's not the code that he's claiming ownership of, he's claiming 50% ownership of the site in general, as sold by Jheryn/Alkora. His agreement with them was for 50% of the site.



PheagleAdler said:


> See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."


He's running it, but he doesn't control it. IMVU controls it. He's just their chauffeur.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Runefox said:


> It's not the code that he's claiming ownership of, he's claiming 50% ownership of the site in general, as sold by Jheryn/Alkora. His agreement with them was for 50% of the site.
> 
> 
> He's running it, but he doesn't control it. IMVU controls it. He's just their chauffeur.



Well then, some done f*cked up back in 2007. 

I'm not sure calling him a chauffeur is accurate. Since apparently according to IMVU "As mentioned in our announcement, the only input we have in FA is ensuring the site administrator has appropriate resources to make improvements to the site that he has been wanting to make (servers and such)." All I see is funding and a connection between two furry communities.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 20, 2015)

Eh, I guess I can get his reasoning.

As a figurehead he keeps his VIP status in the fandom, but doesn't need worry about all those complicated financial stuff, like whether red or black numbers are the bad ones.

FA never was about him doing a service for the community, it's all about not being a nobody. Pathetic.


----------



## nrr (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."



OK, so, I think you're confusing financial equity with social or political equity. Dragoneer currently has none of the former since he cashed it in with IMVU, and it's currently disputed exactly what share of the equity in FA he had at the time of sale. On the other hand, since IMVU has granted him a position controlling the direction in which FA drifts, he happens to have a lot of social and political equity.

In simpler terms: Dragoneer doesn't own FA any longer, but he does still happen to dictate how it works.

On the financial equity front, the disputes come down to who has what documents, who can substantiate which claims, and with whom what agreements were made. If Arcturus did the legwork to document that, yes, they were the owner of the claimed 50% legal interest in FA (by whatever instrument, be it stock or any other commodity), there may be a good case to be had. At this juncture, though, any litigation to come out of it will be purely on principle since the costs involved will very likely outweigh any of the benefit.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm not sure calling him a chauffeur is accurate. Since apparently according to IMVU "As mentioned in our announcement, the only input we have in FA is ensuring the site administrator has appropriate resources to make improvements to the site that he has been wanting to make (servers and such)." All I see is funding and a connection between two furry communities.



I think it's accurate. The instructions right now are "keep going where you're going". That can and very likely will change in the future when hungry investors are wondering why they aren't making any ROI on this site. It seems to me that the way Dragoneer pitched it, all the site needs is a bit of hardware and a professional coder in order to be profitable. That isn't the reality, although IMVU definitely stands to gain from data mining, which is something Dragoneer claims he has the authority to say no to (he doesn't).

The bottom line is, FurAffinity is (disputedly) 100% owned by IMVU. Dragoneer is IMVU's employee. He can be fired if he fails to perform; He's said so himself. If FurAffinity continues to lose money, expect changes. Dragoneer is driving the car but IMVU owns it and chooses where it goes. And they can say he doesn't get to drive it anymore if he chips the paint.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

Are people still bothering to argue with that humongous brown-nosed kissass PheagleAdler? Y'all could give him scanned court documents with a final verdict ordering Dragoneer and IMVU to hand out direct compensation to the parties in question, and he'd still be going, "Look, hang on, let's give 'Neer the benifit of the doubt. Just because there's signed document it doesn't mean he ..."

He's always been a tremendous whiteknighter for the Dragoneer cause and nothing short of a direct intervention to pull his head out of Dragoneer's ass and strapping him down before he dives back in is going to change that. So don't bother arguing with him it's a damned brickwall. 

I hate to put it that way Pheagle, but it's the damned truth and you know it. It's one thing to go "Hmmm that's a bit troublesome. I wonder what impact it will have..." And to repeatedly defend like a wannabe defense lawyer and come to the rescue of someone who abandoned the topic long ago. Particularly when you have been handed lots of evidence pointing to something considerably fishy. 

If someone tells you that you're a duck, don't beleive it. 
If two people tell you youre a duck, be skeptical. 
If three people tell you you're a duck, you might be willing to check for yellow feathers and a webbed feet. Cause there may be some truth to it.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 20, 2015)

So, whenever someone can't get cub porn removed from FA due to unanswered tickets, the best route now is to tweet the issue to @IMVU and use the hashtag #ChildPornography, right?  It just seems to me that that might lead to the fastest responses ever in FA's history.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Are people still bothering to argue with that humongous brown-nosed kissass PheagleAdler? Y'all could give him scanned court documents with a final verdict ordering Dragoneer and IMVU to hand out direct compensation to the parties in question, and he'd still be going, "Look, hang on, let's give 'Neer the benifit of the doubt. Just because there's signed document it doesn't mean he ..."
> 
> He's always been a tremendous whiteknighter for the Dragoneer cause and nothing short of a direct intervention to pull his head out of Dragoneer's ass and strapping him down before he dives back in is going to change that. So don't bother arguing with him it's a damned brickwall.
> 
> ...



No mention of his constant vigilance on Twitter; policing accounts he knows are either satirical (FurAffinityPR) or have bad blood with Piche (Arc)?
 But what is being said in response to his mind numbing damage control is still valuable. Despite the eagle plugging his own ears and covering his own eyes, someone else who is actually an adult will take something from nrr and Runefox's rebuttals. Or at least laugh with Gryphoneer. I say continue.


----------



## miyevskr (Mar 20, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> So, whenever someone can't get cub porn  removed from FA due to unanswered tickets, the best route now is to  tweet the issue to @IMVU and use the hashtag #ChildPornography, right?   It just seems to me that that might lead to the fastest responses ever  in FA's history.


Cute... 

(The longer-term crackdown that would be likely to follow might be a bit of a bite in the ass, though).


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> No mention of his constant vigilance on Twitter; policing accounts he knows are either satirical (FurAffinityPR) or have bad blood with Piche (Arc)?
> But what is being said in response to his mind numbing damage control is still valuable. Despite the eagle plugging his own ears and covering his own eyes, someone else who is actually an adult will take something from nrr and Runefox's rebuttals. Or at least laugh with Gryphoneer. I say continue.



I guess in the end I refuse to respect anyone who blindly takes faith one way or the other. 

That said... 

This is either going to be the best thing that happened to FA (actual management to handle the mess that is the site) or the worst thing (plug pulled). Either way, both are best case scenarios for this site. When you've got the track record that FA does, total annihilation and full reform are both acceptable plans of actions. In the words of the southern Fox News watcher, "Bomb 'em all." Honestly at this point the only way FA can truly fuck up is to continue on as it has, and no matter WHAT  you believe in the long run, that's the simple plain truth of it.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 20, 2015)

My problem with just letting FA implode upon itself is that there are people who depend upon the community that FA has built in order to make a living. While this won't disappear overnight, the ensuing months after the plug is pulled in the worst case scenario would be months of confusion and shuffling around, and artists who rely on getting exposure for their commissions and so on will spend that time mostly in the shadows. It's like getting laid off for them.

This isn't something that's a moonshot, either. FA could be shuttered for lack of performance, financial crush on IMVU's end, or even IMVU going under, which this move is obviously something that they're using to try and avoid that. It's one of many possible scenarios, but it's not out of the question. There's also scenarios where FA becomes untenable due to ads, paywalling, etc, and then there's scenarios where IMVU somehow makes money from running FA and continues to run it in a sensible fashion. But looking at their core business, I think the latter isn't likely in the long term.

Whatever happens, I recommend all artists who make a living from commissions, prints, etc expand their galleries to other places to ensure a measure of stability in that event.


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## Anakarr (Mar 20, 2015)

Ok so, here are some facts... Since the staff nor site owner want to be forthcoming and admit these things or step up to the plate and take responsibility...

1. FA was essentially sold back in January. Its now March. You waited 2 months to tell your supporting users you have basically sold the site with all their information and owned imagery or content in it, to someone else.
2. There are repeated notations and conversations about competant staff being elbowed out, not receiving any pay or compensation for their work.
3. GoFundMe with-hel;d the donations while an investigation for fraud was launched due to the close timing of said DDOS attack.
4. FurAffinity has at least one admin/user that has committed crimes of a sexual nature, but instead of outting them and protecting others against them, FA continues to house this administrator/user and protect THEM.

Lets look at this... There are plenty of very capable programmers that would be more than willing to help with the site, but you haven't hired any of them. There are even those whom would do it for free, but again, you havent hired any of them. There are plenty of very capable moderators for the forum and the site. Once more, you haven't hired any of them. As far as I have experienced, the administration is lazy and half-ass things at best. No not ALL of them, but some of them.

We are your community. WE are what makes FA what it is. Not you... The community is what gives it the image. The community is what gives it popularity. The community is what keeps it SAFE. And you have basically screwed us at every turn. You house what would be felons. You treat your staff poorly. You keep the site just operational enough to barely be useable. There are people out there running sites in the same fashion, hardware wise, with more traffic, that experience less problems.

For all of those who will hate on this post. I dont hate FA... I hate how its been managed, and I hate how the owner of the site doesnt give enough of a crap about the community to inform us of things WHEN they are happening, or safeguard us against those who would do us harm, and have done others harm. WHAT THE HELL?!?! Get your *&^% together and grow a pair...


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## November (Mar 20, 2015)

Are we ever going to get an explanation as to why it took TWO MONTHS for this acquisition to be announced? Further, since deals like this don't happen overnight, are we ever going to know when IMVU first expressed interest? It seems pretty fruitless to speculate about the future when we can't even get a straight answer about what happened in the past.


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## Delta (Mar 20, 2015)

Daesyn said:


> If this ends in a legal battle I would be willing to bet money that Dragoneer gets fired by IMVU _at the very least_.




I feel like if this all is actually playing out the way it seems to be and the other owner has the resources and the backbone to take Neer to court (here's to hoping) all of the questions of where that ten g's went will finally be answered truthfully and completely. There is, however, a nightmare scenario. Say Neer gets sued and IMVU steps up to bat for him. That would significantly deepen the rabbit hole and all of the conspiracy stewing up right now will pail in comparison to IMVU and Neer true motives and plans are.

Why do movie theatres even exist now that FA is around? Are people not entertained by this? This is Gold!



November said:


> Are we ever going to get an explanation as to why it took TWO MONTHS for this acquisition to be announced? Further, since deals like this don't happen overnight, are we ever going to know when IMVU first expressed interest? It seems pretty fruitless to speculate about the future when we can't even get a straight answer about what happened in the past.



Fitting cement shoes is a process that takes longer than most.


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## Xela-Dasi (Mar 20, 2015)

r.i.p Furaffinity


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## Delta (Mar 20, 2015)

miyevskr said:


> Cute...
> 
> (The longer-term crackdown that would be likely to follow might be a bit of a bite in the ass, though).



How to get the furry community to move to a different site:

1. Evict them from the current one.


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Delta said:


> How to get the furry community to move to a different site:
> 
> 1. Evict them from the current one.


2. Have corrupt staff
3. Have unsavoury characters mod your site and allow other more likeminded people to run rampant
4. Ask for money for projects that will never come to completion



AshleyAshes said:


> So, whenever someone can't get cub porn removed from FA due to unanswered tickets, the best route now is to tweet the issue to @IMVU and use the hashtag #ChildPornography, right?  It just seems to me that that might lead to the fastest responses ever in FA's history.



That's assuming IMVU isnt going to mess with any porn rules and ban or limit porn outright, which is a possibility considering what their user base said about  staff decisions when money is involved....


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## mcjoel (Mar 20, 2015)

What about the forums how are they going to be affected are we going to have to use those god awful things imuv calls avatars will the rules change will we have IMUV mods here are we going to have adds all over the place and speaking of adds is the price to advertise on FA going to increase to the point no artist can afford to advertise on the mainsite?


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## Vaelarsa (Mar 20, 2015)

Well, this got me to log on to the site to wipe my gallery, after a year-long hiatus, so there's that. 
It was quite overdue, and I thank you for encouraging me to start spring cleaning a bit early this year.

As for the acquisition, I still think it's _quite telling_ that even the IMVU users are worried for Furaffinity's sake.
When your own consumer base doesn't trust you, you know things are heading in ominous directions.
Reviews are often a more accurate and honest source of information than a company's PR attempts. It's good to keep that in mind.

As for the issue of whiteknighting going on in this thread:
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice...


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## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

I like how the IMVU topic was WIPED CLEAN by their moderation team...which is a common thing as I use to be over there.
You cant talk bad about IMVU over there or risk losing your account, their own userbase know that IMVU is only doing this for money as they have to experience IMVU being all about money first hand.

IF anyone actually believe IMVU is doing this for the good of their hearts does not know what level of "good" imvu does...usually the good they do is good for their investors and the wanting to make a profit...


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> I like how the IMVU topic was WIPED CLEAN by their moderation team...which is a common thing as I use to be over there.


Hmmm
Not feeling this acquisition. Doesnt look beneficial at all.


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## SILENTrampancy (Mar 20, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I understand that, but I entered into an NDA and an agreement, a binding contract. Thus, the details are literally not mine to give. Period.



Oh you done goofed buddy.


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## Kajet (Mar 20, 2015)

Well there's one thing to say about the furry fandom, once someone fucks up as bad as people have here, someone else is glad to take over.

Who's gonna take over? Bad Dragon of course http://bad-dragon.com/artsite.html


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## Anakarr (Mar 20, 2015)

"I made an agrteement with another company that includes all of my users and their information, but I also signed the part where I agreed not to tell them"

Thats pretty much what that says and its a *&^%ing stupid idea...


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Kajet said:


> Well there's one thing to say about the furry fandom, once someone fucks up as bad as people have here, someone else is glad to take over.
> 
> Who's gonna take over? Bad Dragon of course http://bad-dragon.com/artsite.html




I doubt that...


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 20, 2015)

With each passage I read, this deal becomes so more fishy. In what way does this deal of IMVU "funding" upgrades, and not overtaking FA or changing things to benefit their suited man, make any damn financial sense? 

All I see now, is when imvu sees it fit that this as a stupid idea, they will either sell or close FA. In business It doesn't make semce to own something if it won't make profit, I know this was discussed. Unless the owner of imvu is really a gem and wants to help, then I can't see it. But a I am reading there is no 50/50 split here.


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## Atemis (Mar 20, 2015)

It makes sense, IMVU needs furries to use their service, but furries use FA to communicate, so shutdown FA and create a demand for a media to connect with other furries, more preferably one with an already size able furry community like IMVU.


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## CaptainCool (Mar 20, 2015)

If they bought FA they want to make a profit with it. Best case scenario I can think of is that they put tons of ads on the site? I doubt that they bought the site just because they like furries... 
And what happens if they deem the whole thing not profitable in the future? Are you gonna buy the site back or will they close it? 
I've also read that they love to send tons of spam mails to their users. At this point that's what I'm must concerned about, that things get annoying ...


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## Hisu (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> ...and do it in large print?


Yes.



PheagleAdler said:


> No, I don't really know why that would be an alternative anyway.


Because there are only two other alternatives.
a) Neer just sold everybody out, willingly
b) imvu's management got out of their mind and approved expensive tech support for nothing in return
While a) can be refuted and is not likely, b) is completely impossible. Imvu is a business, not a non-profit organization. Business always does what's profitable in the shortest run possible.



PheagleAdler said:


> Just humor me for a second, if they do end up improving the site with this help, we won't see any of what you said.


They will. In an unlikely even of b) above, they'll sell FA to someone who'll thrash and squeeze FA properly, because no one else will buy it.
Now, it's in the embrace phase. I don't know how long it'll go. Probably a year? Can't really say.
Next comes the extension phase: they put a little bit of convenient things here and there, increasing performance, etc, etc. The point is to help FA users integrate into imvu and also help its public image.
Finally, they extinguish FA. It can be slow (you know, the usual corporate style, nip a little bit here, a little bit there, and eventually you find out yourself stripped naked, out of your house and with in a huge debt) or quick, I can't say which either, but eventually they'll close FA. Why would they do it? Well, it's simple: even if 90% of current FA users leave, they still win. Even 10% of current FA traffic is a real plum to pick. That's the only thing they could aim for, so I say it's the whole reason for "helping out" Neer.


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## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> You know, at some point pretty soon, some guy in a suit - who has no idea what the hell FA is - will going to be looking at the figures for the end of the second quarter, and wonder who the fuck spent a bunch of resources on something that has given them almost zero ROI.  Eventually, someone is going to have to justify the amount of time and money being spent on keeping FA alive when it offers nothing in return, in economic terms. When no one can supply that justification, they will be told to either shut it down or make it profitable, and the guys at the top won't give a single shit about some backwater "community" they've never heard of. All they'll see is a red number on their pretty charts, and want it to be green.


I'll be generous and say FA will be dead within 3 years. Possibky sooner.
And I'll say this: FA is primarily a mature content website. I don't care if there is more GA stuff, dog dingdong gets the most hits and commissions. FA was created as an alternative to sheezy art, which banned porn. Pretty obvious there, m8. I don't know if IMVU wants hardcore porn connected to them. Expect sanitation.


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## Silvershock (Mar 20, 2015)

Kajet said:


> Well there's one thing to say about the furry fandom, once someone fucks up as bad as people have here, someone else is glad to take over.
> 
> Who's gonna take over? Bad Dragon of course http://bad-dragon.com/artsite.html





> We believe that it should be quick and easy for everybody to  contribute to the community: from people who simply watch other artists,  through commissioners and character owners, all the way to amateur and  professional artists looking to earn a living doing what they love best.



It _really_ bugs me when people act like artists are the only content creators in the fandom. Really, really bugs me. Read that whole spiel from BD and they're basically making it clear that they're only really considering the needs of artists.


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## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

This finally gives me an excuse to brush off my Weasyl account. 

Seriously, anyone worth their salt is on that site. The site is functional and is run by ex-FA staff who were too competent for Dragoneer's liking. If you want to be with the cub-fuckers on Inkbunny and SoFurry have fun. But once Weasyl's community gets up and running, I think it'll be the premier site for years to come.


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

"Artists" can be an all-encompassing term that includes musicians and authors as well as digital/trad artists


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 20, 2015)

If I get spam from imvu I won't be happy. I refuse to pay for someone else's mistake. I hope that the courts, without a reasonable doubt, is able to prove something for FAs coder.

And if they clear adult content, which imvu has clearly thought about, their statement is so nicely worded to not changing things now, but say nothing about the future. I'm genuinely worried, I love what I have here on FA. Awesome friends and followers, if I lose this because of a change in power... :'(

I really hope that someone, ither sides, can clarify properly wtf is going on. I am sure the forums on imvu haven't been replied to yet, odd how humans need to sleep, so I hope things within today or tomorrow can be clarified. Who knows, if a lawsuit does happen, and only if, imvu might say fuck it. Who knows at this point. 

This saddens me so much, FA is the majority of the fandom or whatever. If we all split and go elsewhere nothing will match what following is here. It's a very fubar situation as it stands unanswered.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> If I get spam from imvu I won't be happy. I refuse to pay for someone else's mistake. I hope that the courts, without a reasonable doubt, is able to prove something for FAs coder.
> 
> And if they clear adult content, which imvu has clearly thought about, their statement is so nicely worded to not changing things now, but say nothing about the future. I'm genuinely worried, I love what I have here on FA. Awesome friends and followers, if I lose this because of a change in power... :'(
> 
> ...



well for IMVU unlike our mods, IMVU mods only show up to wipe topics clean of dissent...just like seen in that topic link that was provided earlier...they also locked it...


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## aquavixen (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."



This is what you are not understanding. Dragonner -SOLD- FA to IMVU, as in, lock stock and barrel, signed it over, sold, gone. Dragoneer is now an -EMPLOYEE- of IMVU and no longer "HAS" FA, it's gone, not his, does not own it, nothing. It is 100% completely owned by IMVU and Dragoneer is just a manager and overseeing the site now.

This is what I've gleamed reading this entire thread from start until now. And this.. is why anyone that depends on FA for their livelihood and income, should be scared. No, they should be utterly terrified that their income is now in jepordy. Because no one knows what IMVU has planned for FA for the future. No one, not even Dragoneer, because it's already been proven (earlier in this thread with screenshots) that he did not even read the entire contract in full and does not even know what's in most of it.

So yes, be afraid for the future of FA, Be very afraid.


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Since IMVU is watching this topic: are you guys gonna make a statement or no? Its clear we're not going to get one on our end soon. Even some sort of discussion would be nice while Neer is typing up a question/concern masterpost


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## Xela-Dasi (Mar 20, 2015)

http://imgur.com/9hMhmYD not the owner anymore. He should update it for :

dragonner (IMVUstaff)
artist type : specialist at fucking shit up
current mood : $


profile :

*imgur's bitch*
dragoneer [at] IMVU[dot] com


no offence


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Youre gonna get this thread closed, bro
lol
let's just stick to legit questions and criticisms
If this thread is closed, any more that are created for actual questions will be immediately locked


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## TheArchiver (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Hmmm
> Not feeling this acquisition. Doesnt look beneficial at all.



...

Wow, that normally happens here when staff is in the hotseat.


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> ...
> 
> Wow, that normally happens here when staff is in the hotseat.



Been here since 2008 and I've seen it many times. Hoping people stay civil in here.


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## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

Maybe weasyl will get big now.


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## CaptainCool (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> This finally gives me an excuse to brush off my Weasyl account.
> 
> Seriously, anyone worth their salt is on that site. The site is functional and is run by ex-FA staff who were too competent for Dragoneer's liking. If you want to be with the cub-fuckers on Inkbunny and SoFurry have fun. But once Weasyl's community gets up and running, I think it'll be the premier site for years to come.



Weasyl does have its fair share of problems as well. From what I have heard they have problems with the structure of their staff and there are just not a lot of people posting there.
Yesterday I re-watched everyone there who I watch on FA. Out of roughly 1300 people on my watchlist I found about 400. And a big chunk of the accounts that I did find were inactive.
As for activity, yesterday they had a total of 10.401 users visiting the site. FA has over 10.000 users online at any given time.
At the moment things don't seem to be looking too hot for them... If FA happens to go under (for what ever reason) people will switch there. The other alternatives would be SoFurry and Inkbunny... But no one ever mentions SF when this topic comes up and all the pedos have already moved to IB.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm still waiting to hear about if Dragoneer got nice deals for all of his administrators like he told us they'd get.


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## Andy Dingo Wolf (Mar 20, 2015)

Good thing I made that SoFurry and Weasyl account...


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## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> Weasyl does have its fair share of problems as well. From what I have heard they have problems with the structure of their staff and there are just not a lot of people posting there.
> Yesterday I re-watched everyone there who I watch on FA. Out of roughly 1300 people on my watchlist I found about 400. And a big chunk of the accounts that I did find were inactive.
> As for activity, yesterday they had a total of 10.401 users visiting the site. FA has over 10.000 users online at any given time.
> At the moment things don't seem to be looking too hot for them... If FA happens to go under (for what ever reason) people will switch there. The other alternatives would be SoFurry and Inkbunny... But no one ever mentions SF when this topic comes up and all the pedos have already moved to IB.



Lately they've cleaned up staff issues from what I've heard. (And it's not like FA staff structure is any better...) As for the "not a lot of people" posting there, I've found there's a tight knit groups of people there. I suppose it's all where you're looking. At this point the convenience of FA isn't even enough to keep me around for long.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Lately they've cleaned up staff issues from what I've heard. (And it's not like FA staff structure is any better...) As for the "not a lot of people" posting there, I've found there's a tight knit groups of people there. I suppose it's all where you're looking. At this point the convenience of FA isn't even enough to keep me around for long.



They have, they've been open about their mistakes and their problems and have taken appropriate action. And they're very open with their users. It'll sound like I'm a suck-up for Weasyl which I probably am, I just appreciate the good they do and the honest effort they make, rather than just come on here to complain about FA.

Got to take the bad with the good, it's the only way we can redeem things.


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## mapdark (Mar 20, 2015)

All I'm going to say is prepare for the worst.

I'm not saying "jump ship". But BE prepared for whatever is going to go wrong to go wrong any day now.
The fact that this is not a partnership but a complete change of ownership basically means that IMVU has a veto right on ANYTHING done on the website. 
They might have left Dragoneer as an overseer of some sort but it doesn't change anything to the fact THEY are in charge and that if they feel the website isn't profitable enough , they can just change it like they want and Dragoneer and other staff people won't have a say in the decisions taken.

Do you honestly think that a company will buy a website, invest in its infrastructure and then not do anything on the site? Of course not.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the next months we see premium content being introduced and functionalities get limited for free accounts.

And finally , if the website proves to be a money pit , they will probably just shut it down. 

So at this point FA is the Titanic on its way to its iceberg. The question is not IF it will sink but when.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> Weasyl does have its fair share of problems as well. From what I have heard they have problems with the structure of their staff and there are just not a lot of people posting there.
> Yesterday I re-watched everyone there who I watch on FA. Out of roughly 1300 people on my watchlist I found about 400. And a big chunk of the accounts that I did find were inactive.
> As for activity, yesterday they had a total of 10.401 users visiting the site. FA has over 10.000 users online at any given time.
> At the moment things don't seem to be looking too hot for them... If FA happens to go under (for what ever reason) people will switch there. The other alternatives would be SoFurry and Inkbunny... But no one ever mentions SF when this topic comes up and all the pedos have already moved to IB.


Theres a reason you dont speak of SoFurry, just like how some folks on SoFurry dont like FA but will welcome their userbase
take it from me who is an ambassador over there where I do get an occasional hate for being a former FAF regular

but yes SoFurry is already ready with open arms to welcome folks who are running from FA


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## CaptainCool (Mar 20, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Theres a reason you dont speak of SoFurry, just like how some folks on SoFurry dont like FA but will welcome their userbase
> take it from me who is an ambassador over there where I do get an occasional hate for being a former FAF regular
> 
> but yes SoFurry is already ready with open arms to welcome folks who are running from FA



I was always just curious why no one ever mentions SF when it comes to the whole "LEAVING FA FOREVER" thing.

Also, I just read the new Q&A journal on the main site. If that is really how things are gonna go then I'd be fine with it. And I do start to understand 'Neer's point of view. Instead of being something that costs money and that just puts a hole in your wallet, this is a chance for FA to become less of a burden, but something to be more passionate about.
If they are really just gonna use FA for thirdparty ads that are introduced in a non-intrusive way but in return we get a website that actually works and has new features... Yeah sure. I'm all for that.
From what I read it would probably be the end of ads from users though... That's kind of a shame.



mapdark said:


> So at this point FA is the Titanic on its way to its iceberg. The question is not IF it will sink but when.



And within two months everyone has forgotten about this and the "I WILL LEAVE FA!!1" journals have ended. Just like it happened when Zaush got onto the team or when people found out abouce Chase.
My point is, you don't know that.


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## Chaossal (Mar 20, 2015)

Kajet said:


> Well there's one thing to say about the furry fandom, once someone fucks up as bad as people have here, someone else is glad to take over.
> 
> Who's gonna take over? Bad Dragon of course http://bad-dragon.com/artsite.html



oh this sounds awesome! I fully support a art site run by bad dragon! Would join in a heartbeat!

Also I support sofurry in the mean time, like it much better than weasyl, and have already been using it as my second main art account for a long time.


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## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

I personally think it's still a slap in the face for all the donators. They donated with the prospect of keeping this site self-sufficient and user run. Within two months it was sold, and the talks and negotiations were happening within those two months. So within a month at the least, Dragoneer was already considering selling the site. 

That just speaks poor respect for the user base. It doesn't take 10k to stop a DDoS attack. Those funds were put into site functionality, which were quickly sold.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> I was always just curious why no one ever mentions SF when it comes to the whole "LEAVING FA FOREVER" thing.


cause theres only a few things that go on on SoFurry from my ambassador point of view
-Lots of writing stories as SoFurry came from YiffStar which was a story/writer heavy website (probably contributes to how the same folks keep on appearing in the popular and favorites section on art)
-people posting art that isnt theres (which when reported they make a new account and try again not realizing us ambassadors can see NEW users and their NEW art posted)
-people roleplaying (bonus points the character they are role playing ISNT THEIRS and try to claim it to be) in the TWO adult role play areas (WHY TWO ADULT, how is the private one any different from the public one?)
-and topics that even we here have literally have a rule against...(I hate echo chambers and its full of it over there...)


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## idejtauren (Mar 20, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> And within two months everyone has forgotten about this and the "I WILL LEAVE FA!!1" journals have ended. Just like it happened when Zaush got onto the team or when people found out abouce Chase.
> My point is, you don't know that.



If my calculations are correct, FA has crashed and burned like 17 times now. I think that's what many of those that are staying are complaining about. People cry wolf at every thing that FA does and jump ship with regularity.
And yet, it's still the most popular furry site.  
SoFurry... I remember when it was yiffstar...somewhere in the change, it got hard to navigate...and there's been issues with an admin not understanding basic copyright law.
Inkbunny...I don't need to tell you about people's issues with its stances on cub.
Weasyl is much too small. Although the site itself functions well, there's not enough users. It doesn't work well if you're not an artist.
After those? Where else is there? Tumblr? I don't know.
FA is still where the bulk of people are. Until some colossal screwup happens (no, this acquisition doesn't count because nothing has changed...yet) a good chunk of people will still be here.
Maybe you can make another site. But it needs a good amount of users for it to be successful.


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## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Surely IMVU was discussing the sale with FA before the DDOS attack donation run occurred.... why run for donations when its something that IMVU would probably fix?


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## Hermie (Mar 20, 2015)

Holy damn, my account I havent touched in 5 years still works. I'm just going to say what everyone's thinking, that there's more than likely some monetary fraud going on. This SCREAMS shady deals. Why else would it be completely behind closed doors?

To those people complaining about Weasyl being slow, it's because you aren't there. Use it more. Submit art. Write journals. Post in the forums.

To 'Neer, you dun fucked up hardcore, not just for yourself, but for thousands of others. There's no recovery from this. Congratulations.


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## rp (Mar 20, 2015)

[video=youtube;tDRsPE1BbB8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRsPE1BbB8[/video]


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## Verin Asper (Mar 20, 2015)

idejtauren said:


> If my calculations are correct, FA has crashed and burned like 17 times now. I think that's what many of those that are staying are complaining about. People cry wolf at every thing that FA does and jump ship with regularity.
> And yet, it's still the most popular furry site.
> SoFurry... I remember when it was yiffstar...somewhere in the change, it got hard to navigate...and there's been issues with an admin not understanding basic copyright law.
> Inkbunny...I don't need to tell you about people's issues with its stances on cub.
> ...


its only cause of the biggest pull here really: the artist are here
if all a person does is commission, folks dont really give fucks if they leave.
An artist leaving is a bigger thing, just it dont happen much cause of another reason: Customers
So its really stuck in a loop, folks dont leave cause their artist isnt leaving and the artist isnt leaving cause their larger customer base is here.


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## Blitza (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> I personally think it's still a slap in the face for all the donators. They donated with the prospect of keeping this site self-sufficient and user run. Within two months it was sold, and the talks and negotiations were happening within those two months. So within a month at the least, Dragoneer was already considering selling the site.
> 
> That just speaks poor respect for the user base. It doesn't take 10k to stop a DDoS attack. Those funds were put into site functionality, which were quickly sold.



God damn were is the Like Button when you Need it ????


----------



## Blitza (Mar 20, 2015)

rp said:


> [video=youtube;tDRsPE1BbB8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRsPE1BbB8[/video]



Sir you made my Day 

Well it seems he didnt use the Money either for an Dentist XD


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Blitza said:


> God damn were is the Like Button when you Need it ????



It's the one bottom left that says 'This' :3


----------



## Blitza (Mar 20, 2015)

"falls down" Damn i am not used anymore to this Forum ^^;;

Thanks for letting me know ^^


----------



## bkatt500 (Mar 20, 2015)

Chaossal said:


> oh this sounds awesome! I fully support a art site run by bad dragon! Would join in a heartbeat!



Considering that BD's Dragonfruit printing service already has a rep for giving out prints to employees without knowledge of the artist, mebbe not a good idea.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Are people still bothering to argue with that humongous brown-nosed kissass PheagleAdler? Y'all could give him scanned court documents with a final verdict ordering Dragoneer and IMVU to hand out direct compensation to the parties in question, and he'd still be going, "Look, hang on, let's give 'Neer the benifit of the doubt. Just because there's signed document it doesn't mean he ..."
> 
> He's always been a tremendous whiteknighter for the Dragoneer cause and nothing short of a direct intervention to pull his head out of Dragoneer's ass and strapping him down before he dives back in is going to change that. So don't bother arguing with him it's a damned brickwall.
> 
> ...



Oh, grow the fuck up. I'm getting quite sick of your asinine comments. I'm not a fucking brownnose kissasser because I disagree with your dramatic bullshit, okay?


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> No mention of his constant vigilance on Twitter; policing accounts he knows are either satirical (FurAffinityPR) or have bad blood with Piche (Arc)?
> But what is being said in response to his mind numbing damage control is still valuable. Despite the eagle plugging his own ears and covering his own eyes, someone else who is actually an adult will take something from nrr and Runefox's rebuttals. Or at least laugh with Gryphoneer. I say continue.



Policing? Did I tell him what to do? No, I told him why it was laughable. The guy has had a bad history with the site, I'd be surprised if he actually still had some ownership of it since he seems to hate it with a passion.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Vaelarsa said:


> Well, this got me to log on to the site to wipe my gallery, after a year-long hiatus, so there's that.
> It was quite overdue, and I thank you for encouraging me to start spring cleaning a bit early this year.
> 
> As for the acquisition, I still think it's _quite telling_ that even the IMVU users are worried for Furaffinity's sake.
> ...



Oh, boo hoo...the site was sold. Good riddance, honestly. I'm waiting to see what happens.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Oh, grow the fuck up. I'm getting quite sick of your asinine comments. I'm not a fucking brownnose kissasser because I disagree with your dramatic bullshit, okay?





PheagleAdler said:


> Policing? Did I tell him what to do? No, I told him why it was laughable. The guy has had a bad history with the site, I'd be surprised if he actually still had some ownership of it since he seems to hate it with a passion.





PheagleAdler said:


> Oh, boo hoo...the site was sold. Good riddance, honestly. I'm waiting to see what happens.


Yo phil ever here of multi quote?


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

At this point guys I would just ignore him, not everyone has an eagle eye for the fine details. Meanwhile, interesting exchange here : https://twitter.com/Zidonuke/status/579048277049532416


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> At this point guys I would just ignore him, not everyone has an eagle eye for the fine details. Meanwhile, interesting exchange here : https://twitter.com/Zidonuke/status/579048277049532416



Kinda boring if you ask me.


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Kinda boring if you ask me.



Thank you for your valuable input once again. It's always appreciated. You are adding so much interesting content to this thread.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Oh, grow the fuck up. I'm getting quite sick of your asinine comments. I'm not a fucking brownnose kissasser because I disagree with your dramatic bullshit, okay?



No, you're not. 

But the fact that the majority of your time spent on FAF has been in the Site Discussion defending FurAffinity and Dragoneer's every move, however, is. 

Also quite the charming little comment you made on my profile. At least be open about your shit talk.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 20, 2015)

I just took a quick look at IMVU.
That really is just an FA clone... And the content on Youtube is just from angsty teenagers.
I wanted to try what they offer there but I had to download a program. F that, no time for that! Looks like my character, McSwoley, will never be used. How sad .__.

Anyway, I still am concerned about this. They do look a little shady. Also, why on earth would a company that has teenagers as their target audience buy the website of a community that loves dog and horse wangs? It just makes no damn sense at all...


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> No, you're not.
> 
> But the fact that the majority of your time spent on FAF has been in the Site Discussion defending FurAffinity and Dragoneer's every move, however, is.
> 
> Also quite the charming little comment you made on my profile. At least be open about your shit talk.



No, because you're always attacking me, be reasonable. I never said I wasn't skeptical, I'm just a bit more hopeful than you.


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 20, 2015)

The ignorance, incompetence, lack of transparency, and total lack of self-responsibility is something to truly be ashamed of.
It's just a shame there isn't really much to be done; it's clear 'Neer is going to keep his mouth shut about the deal, because he signed an NDA, which in and of itself makes it incredibly shady. The constant white knighting from Pheagle is also contributing to my annoyance in this matter.

There is a sheer difference between giving the benefit of the doubt and being shafted lord knows how many times and never getting anything back from it. Neer has much to answer and the questions are just being totally ignored, as per usual.

It's all whatever now.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> No, because you're always attacking me, be reasonable. I never said I wasn't skeptical, I'm just a bit more hopeful than you.



I don't think we've exchanged two words in this thread at all. I wouldn't say I've "ATTACKED" you at all. I said something critical in a way you did not like. Nothing more. 

This is a bit of a derail. I'm gonna drop it.


----------



## ADF (Mar 20, 2015)

I really should pay attention to that little link at the top of FA.

I had to remind myself what IMVU was... Really? That 3D chat program I occasionally saw being advertised towards furries? I thought it was some dime a dozen web app usually full of adware, never in a thousand years would I expect something like that buying FurAffinity. It's like hearing bonzibuddy bought FA, it's very much a "wut?" moment.

I honestly wouldn't have a clue what the consequences of this would be. I'm not being hyperbolic, but I now have this nagging feeling I should get alternative contact details for everyone on my commission list. Just in case...


----------



## Kesteh (Mar 20, 2015)

Seek an alternative. I can't put this any other way. Just a matter of time until the place hits the iceberg that finally sets it under after 10 miserable years of being stuck in 2002.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Im on a phone so my abilities are quite limited atm
has Neer replied anywhere with an update to our questions? I was going to make a list of all questions for him since were 17 pages deep at this moment with zero staff reply :/


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Im on a phone so my abilities are quite limited atm
> has Neer replied anywhere with an update to our questions? I was going to make a list of all questions for him since were 17 pages deep at this moment with zero staff reply :/


Nope not one question has been answered since page seven if you wanna call what neer said answers. 
Maybe if we spam the page with neer insults the mods will take notice. :V


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Nah cause i know they're chomping at the bit to close this thread
Ill collect questions and post them here but i doubt he'll see em. Hey, no excuses though right? Easy enough to find in one single post.


----------



## Naesaki (Mar 20, 2015)

Well there is that Q&A Journal post on FA if that counts as anything  http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6592316


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Naesaki said:


> Well there is that Q&A Journal post on FA if that counts as anything  http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6592316



It's missing some pretty critical questions


----------



## Naesaki (Mar 20, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> It's missing some pretty critical questions



Oh it is but still better than nothing at this current moment, whether we'll get the answers to all the other questions remains to be seen.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Interesting, thank you. Missing critical questions and not posted here though which is weird.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Interesting, thank you. Missing critical questions and not posted here though which is weird.



Did you mean to say they 'are' not instead of 'and' not? If so...

I asked the following :

http://new.spring.me/#!/dragoneer/q/207732784 What happened with this? Dragoneer said would pay off the admins should anyone buy out FA. As far as I can tell, the only person to have benefited from this is Neer.

I also would like to know what will become of Yak, this site has had a history of coding problems because anyone who was signed on to help was stopped by Yak. Will Yak play nicely with the new coders coming in?

There is more I'd like to ask, but I know I'll never get answers.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Yeah, sorry. Was on mobile


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Yeah, sorry. Was on mobile



No worries!


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

I think what we can all take from this is that Dragoneer was never cut out to be site owner. Nearly every decision he has made, from giving admin and coder spots to personal friends with bad reputations, to hiring a coder with a history of burning bridges, to removing the most competent staff because they became involved with another site, and to wracking up a 10k tax bill, has been indicative of a chronic lack of foresight. 

The one good thing he could've done good for FA was sell the site, and he couldn't even do that right. I'm not even really surprised anymore. Just extremely underwhelmed.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> I think what we can all take from this is that Dragoneer was never cut out to be site owner. Nearly every decision he has made, from giving admin and coder spots to personal friends with bad reputations, to hiring a coder with a history of burning bridges, to removing the most competent staff because they became involved with another site, and to wracking up a 10k tax bill, has been indicative of a chronic lack of foresight.
> 
> The one good thing he could've done good for FA was sell the site, and he couldn't even do that right. I'm not even really surprised anymore. Just extremely underwhelmed.



Ladies and Gentleman, Redsavage: THE GIRL ON FIRE!!! 

That's basically my thoughts as well. You really cannot argue with it. If you want to be nice, you could say he had great intentions...but either way, FA has stagnated and become an embarrassment to this entire fandom. No one stays on FA for its wonderful features or thumbnails. They say its in the top 5,000 sites in the world but that's not because of Neer. It's because of the furries that stayed here despite the actions/inaction of management. There is certainly no work ethic involved in Furaffinity and hardly any pride taken except just keeping it running. And from the looks of it, IMVU is similarly uninterested in keeping things well oiled. 

Weasyl sure looks more impressive now.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 20, 2015)

I kinda thought about it for a bit and honestly I kinda wanna see FA just implode. I mean think about it, everyone will have an actual reason to go on some bullshit "furry exodus", they'll be more drama than I could ever dream of, and at the end of the day sites that are infinitely better than FA will get the traffic they really deserve. Either way I'm sticking around because I wanna see how this wacky ride ends.

inb4 ban


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 20, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Did you mean to say they 'are' not instead of 'and' not? If so...
> 
> I asked the following :
> 
> http://new.spring.me/#!/dragoneer/q/207732784 What happened with this? Dragoneer said would pay off the admins should anyone buy out FA.



I didn't read it that way at all. I read it as if Dragoneer was going to outright sell the site (and basically have zero input, be kicked off completely, along with the rest of the staff) that the rest of the admins would have to agree to it (and maybe get a cut, I don't know)



PastryOfApathy said:


> I kinda thought about it for a bit and honestly I kinda wanna see FA just implode. I mean think about it, everyone will have an actual reason to go on some bullshit "furry exodus", they'll be more drama than I could ever dream of, and at the end of the day sites that are infinitely better than FA will get the traffic they really deserve. Either way I'm sticking around because I wanna see how this wacky ride ends.
> 
> inb4 ban



I've been here for 6 years, if it was gonna implode, I think it would have done that already.


----------



## RedSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

"Nothing has changed for years! Surely it will ALWAYS be that way!"


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

_"That is because there likely are no future plans beyond partnering with FA to help support their environment."_
- Why is IMVU so interested in "supporting their environment"? Do they really, truly want the financial burden that's currently plaguing FA?

_"Yes, I know that IMVU makes changes that are unpopular to some of their customers, and sometimes even make changes that are unpopular to all of their customers - but every situation is new."_
- They're called members, not customers... Surely not everybody on IMVU has purchased a membership (or whatever they've got over there?)

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11283974#11283974

_"But I see what both sides have to gain. FA gains stability. From what I read, it's been run on a shoestring for quite some time. Now they have funds to manage the site better, do upgrades, and improve."_
- IMVU admits that FA is "run on a shoestring" and yet only wants to get involved with that to "help support their environment"?

_"It's amusing that FA's community is just as up in arms about this as IMVU's community is."_
- IMVU should have researched the product more before purchasing it.

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11284082#11284082


Echoen and Akitary have joined their forums and posted their questions and concerns there -- is it too difficult for at least _someone_ from IMVU to come here and discuss this? Is it really supposed to be that secretive? Maybe I'm wasting my time, I just want to help.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I've been here for 6 years, if it was gonna implode, I think it would have done that already.



Yes but in those six years he hasn't *sold the entire fucking website*. That's kind of a big deal.



Volkodav said:


> Is it really supposed to be that secretive?


Considering they waited two months to tell everyone so they could cement the deal without any knowing to prevent any objections, I would say just a bit.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

FA has had a few mini-implosions already, if you ask me.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> FA has had a few mini-implosions already, if you ask me.



And this makes what? Exodus number 4...5? Every time we have one, fewer and fewer people return. If we start getting 3rd party ads on the site...I rather think people will scurry away for good. (Would you buy a premium for a site like FA?)


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Nah, ads aint gonna scare nobody away. What will scare people away is altering art content or language rules on FA or FAF.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Nah, ads aint gonna scare nobody away. What will scare people away is altering art content or language rules on FA or FAF.



But I reserve the right to say Shit,Fuck,Crap,God danm, and bad dragons can lead to recital prolapse.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 20, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Nah, ads aint gonna scare nobody away. What will scare people away is altering art content or language rules on FA or FAF.



They'll probably do something like banning certain kinds of questionable "art", while having Dragoneer play PR puppet since they're writing his checks now. It'll be like that bullshit with kiddie porn but more widespread and drama-inducing. People stay on FA because it's popular, and it's popular because of porn. Take away the porn and FA's userbase plummets.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> They'll probably do something like banning certain kinds of questionable "art", while having Dragoneer play PR puppet since they're writing his checks now. It'll be like that bullshit with kiddie porn but more widespread and drama-inducing. People stay on FA because it's popular, and it's popular because of porn. Take away the porn and FA's userbase plummets.



I heard you can't even swear or use "adult language" over there if you're not in an "adult" forum section.
IMVU, please remember you're dealing with furries if you decide to mess with the rules.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

bkatt500 said:


> Considering that BD's Dragonfruit printing service already has a rep for giving out prints to employees without knowledge of the artist, mebbe not a good idea.


If the fandom's largest website were to be run by dildo makers, then the fandom really needs to reevaluate it's status as a fandom and consider labeling itself as a fetish. And bad dragon has so much bad rep it would be a terrible idea, you're right.

Also...do other admins have access to our personal info and may be leaving?
Whelp, time to close some email accounts and change passwords.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/578764606283386881

Huh




Also, selling FA to BD would be a Bad Ideaâ„¢


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 20, 2015)

It would also show the fandom in a Bad light â„¢
So nothing is going to change Except some things that they will tell us tomorrow that won't really change anything.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> It would also show the fandom in a Bad light â„¢
> So nothing is going to change Except some things that they will tell us tomorrow that won't really change anything.


Isn't business as usual one of the last things this site needs as well?


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 20, 2015)

I'd die laughing if IMVU invoked harder porn rules on FA.

But hey, maybe then we'd see an end to all that pedophile cub art smut.


----------



## shteev (Mar 20, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'd die laughing if IMVU invoked harder porn rules on FA.
> 
> But hey, maybe then we'd see an end to all that pedophile cub art smut.



I think this is the one time in all of human existence where I'd hope you're right


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'd die laughing if IMVU invoked harder porn rules on FA.
> 
> But hey, maybe then we'd see an end to all that pedophile cub art smut.



That's already disallowed on FA. I'm interested to see what needs "clarifying" on FA though.


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 20, 2015)

My real head scratcher here is why a crappy chat client that is VERY strict on porn/lewd conduct/characters wants FURRIES on their program. 

I mean, IMVU know furries are pretty damn lewd yeah? Yeah?






Volkodav said:


> That's already disallowed on FA.



See my avatar for response.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> My real head scratcher here is why a crappy chat client that is VERY strict on porn/lewd conduct/characters wants FURRIES on their program.
> 
> I mean, IMVU know furries are pretty damn lewd yeah? Yeah?


"We have furries here already!"
"We want to help FA out!"

Ooooookay. Users can't even swear over there in the "general" forum topics so cut the crap.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 20, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> My real head scratcher here is why a crappy chat client that is VERY strict on porn/lewd conduct/characters wants FURRIES on their program.
> 
> I mean, IMVU know furries are pretty damn lewd yeah? Yeah?
> 
> ...


I wonder if this was a mistake on IMVU's part, just an acquisition to make it look like it has a big community now. But FA doesn't make any money, so it's gonna be dead weight to them. The porn angle certainly doesn't help either.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 20, 2015)

Would be interesting to see how many furries migrate over to Weasyl. Great site, shows promise, but needs lots more people.
One thing that I like about them is that _their staff communicates with them throughout changes and doesn't abandon ship when they've hit a lot of criticism_


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> _their staff communicates with them throughout changes and doesn't abandon ship when they've hit a lot of criticism_



This is why I don't give Dragoneer the benefit of the doubt. When someone on Weasyl with an agenda leaked the moderator chat logs exposing choice things said by Term during a heated rape debacle, he was in the hotseat instantly as an alleged rape *supporter. *Within 2 days of these volatile claims, Term, an extremely busy and professional film producer took the time out of his day to address the misunderstanding. An apology, no denial, all the evidence, and answered questions personally in the forum thread. He also didn't need to hide behind another buddy admin. Everything was handled as best as it could have been and the incident quickly blew over. Weasyl is not as popular no, but that is still a lot of angry people for one individual to answer to. Yet he still did it.

It took us multiple attempts to get an answer from Dragoneer only to get "lol sry NDA" and now silence.


----------



## Shireton (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/578764606283386881
> 
> Huh
> 
> ...


So nothing is changing except also some things that are being changed. Gotcha.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

This was posted on Reddit and had me crackin up:
http://i.imgur.com/SvQmXo2.jpg
(nsfw)


Edit:
http://i.imgur.com/gANEeIj.png
There are so many questions that are going unanswered, I don't even know where to begin.
This brings me back to my previous point: *why did Dragoneer run a donation drive if this sale was in the works/being discussed, why didn't he leave this fixing to IMVU who is stacked with cash*


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Edit:
> http://i.imgur.com/gANEeIj.png
> There are so many questions that are going unanswered, I don't even know where to begin.
> This brings me back to my previous point: *why did Dragoneer run a donation drive if this sale was in the works/being discussed, why didn't he leave this fixing to IMVU who is stacked with cash*


The sad thing is we'll never get a straight answer. And if we try to push for one, thread will probably end up locked or people will get banned etc. etc.
It's sad that people actually expect that to happen now to be frank.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Only reason I can see this thread being closed for a semi-legit reason is if a mod or Neer says "we have a discussion thread over here so we don't need this one" *link to FA journal*

I can't discuss things on the main-site because these journals are so massive that my browser freezes. :/ Would be cool if comments collapsed like they do on Reddit.



Edit: Hi, Quoting_Mungo


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Kinda boring if you ask me.



No one asked you ^^


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

Migoto Da said:


> The sad thing is we'll never get a straight answer. And if we try to push for one, thread will probably end up locked or people will get banned etc. etc.
> It's sad that people actually expect that to happen now to be frank.



As long as there will be the assessment of white-knights to stop any questioning going on, these threads will always devolve into bickering. It's a damn shame, but it doesn't matter if we're ignored, there are still plenty of people ready to accept anything that happens.


----------



## Delta (Mar 21, 2015)

If Neer didn't actually pocket the 10k in donations, what are the chances of those dollars being used to fill IMVU's personal dick spa?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Delta said:


> If Neer didn't actually pocket the 10k in donations, what are the chances of those dollars being used to fill IMVU's personal dick spa?


He's claiming all of the donations went straight to IMVU. This hasn't been explained yet, to my knowledge.

Edit:

_"I happen to understand that *IMVU does listen to the community*. They just don't implement everything every member of the community says. Back in the day, when furries were having an impossible time with the TOS (*fursuits are AP or GA?*) as a part of the CAB, I reached out to some heavy members of the Furry community and we drafted a proposal to help entrench furry outfits firmly in GA, with reasonable accommodations. *Hours and hours of efforts, drawings, analysis - making the case, and explaining to IMVU clearly what the furry community was*, is, and could grow to in IMVU.

At the time, *they dismissed our idea*. Now here... 4 or so years later, they are implementing a method to reach out to that community... A piece of what we all proposed years ago. I'm sure that the proposal from so long ago had nothing to do with it... but I consider it a success."_

Uhhh... what. W/e you say..
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11284302#11284302

They can't agree on whether or not *fursuits* are "AP"/adult-rated and yet they bought a furry site? We're supposed to believe no changes will be made?


----------



## Delta (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> He's claiming all of the donations went straight to IMVU. This hasn't been explained yet, to my knowledge.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...




This is actually kind of exciting, is this ship actually going to sink this time?
There's no way IMVU will just idle and let FA steam on as is, is there? 
I mean, they paid for it and Neer, if he's smart, won't buy it back - what does that leave?
I'm starting to feel like most everyone is so used to this site exploding and the end being nigh, that we can't actually see that this course is damning and FA is going to go through a cataclysmic change.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

I honestly don't have any theories as to how or when FA will crash, I'm just throwing out bits of info and questions in hopes that they'll be answered to help the users who actually have their income at stake.


----------



## miyevskr (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Did you mean to say they 'are' not instead of 'and' not? If so...
> 
> I asked the following :
> 
> http://new.spring.me/#!/dragoneer/q/207732784 What happened with this? Dragoneer said would pay off the admins should anyone buy out FA. As far as I can tell, the only person to have benefited from this is Neer.


I'd love to know why anyone else should need to be "bought out" just because they happen to be sitting on a chair when the music stops.
Other people have put in thousands of hours and/or dollars to getting FA off the ground and keeping it going, yet they're somehow deemed irrelevant in that equation vs. an admin; the latest of whom have presumably put in perhaps a few dozen hours over a couple of months? 



Rowedahelicon said:


> I also would like to know what will become of Yak, this site has had a history of coding problems because anyone who was signed on to help was stopped by Yak. Will Yak play nicely with the new coders coming in?
> 
> There is more I'd like to ask, but I know I'll never get answers.


I know it's easier to comment on such matters for those who've not got that much to lose regardless of how things go, but suffice to say we've been here before.

Regardless of anything that's happened since, without Yak FA would almost certainly have died a long, long time ago as Dragoneer was insistent that Alkora be given as long as he wished to try and get the code working better (, deal with repeated outage issues, etc.). 
Being the nice guy he is Alkora eventually agreed, in a 1-2-1 chat, to step back from the tech side for the good of the community. No money changed hands, no false promises were made, etc.


----------



## Rouge Artist (Mar 21, 2015)

Wow, where have I been for the last two days? hiding under a rock? 

Anyways, I've pretty much gone through and read this whole thread, as well as dusted off my IMVU account and paid their forum a visit to sort of see both sides of this. So far it looks like Dragoneer might be dodging a few questions that really need to be answered here. It also sort of bothers me that Dragoneer hasn't been answering or responding to anything in this thread in a good couple pages. He could be busy working on (or has already posted) a long journal and/or thread answering those questions but still, Would be good if he would be a little more responsive as some of the mods on IMVU have been from what I've seen. Really hope he's working on something that explains his actions to us and to the people who made donations to the site in order to prevent future DDoS attacks. It really wouldn't be too hard to explain why we where kept in the dark for about two months after the fact, would it?  

I'm actually wanting to watch and see how this develops over time. Both on the FA side and the IMVU side just to see how things go. I've only been on FA for about a year and a half now (before FA I've been a part of a couple of anime forums and a RP forum) and I've never seen a forum admin handle something that's been THIS IMPORTANT to a site like FA and slowly answer our questions about it. I know it's only been two days since we've been told, but I still feel like he should have had something typed out and prepared to tell us all of the important details of this deal. Even with a NDA in place, he still had time to go through it and prepare a statement of some sort with information that he can disclose. 


Bottom line I think Dragoneer, As the site admin, really needs to explain this to us a little bit more. Especially since it seems like we where kept in the dark about this. Or is this how things usually go around here?


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> This brings me back to my previous point: *why did Dragoneer run a donation drive if this sale was in the works/being discussed, why didn't he leave this fixing to IMVU who is stacked with cash*


This is the question that has been answered the least throughout this entire thread, despite being asked the most. I find it very telling that the staff hasn't answered this question yet. They are literally avoiding the question that involves stealing from the community.

IMVU is going to poison our community's view about them by being so quiet on the matter.

Edit: Looks like 'neer was on dat IMVU swag on March 4th.

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/573285630874128384


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

Blitza said:


> No one asked you ^^



Don't get f*cking smart with me, wiseguy.



Volkodav said:


> *why did Dragoneer run a donation drive if this sale was in the works/being discussed, why didn't he leave this fixing to IMVU who is stacked with cash*



Again, the donation drive was in OCTOBER, well before this sale was being discussed. If you're gonna criticize, fine. But stop pulling shit out of your asses!


----------



## miyevskr (Mar 21, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> Edit: Looks like 'neer was on dat IMVU swag on March 4th.
> 
> https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/573285630874128384


So casual... 

_> FWA-bound Kitsune @MattIsAFox Mar 4: @Dragoneer Â°-Â° you use IMVU?
> NEER.EXE â€@Dragoneer Mar 4: @MattIsAFox Yes._

I'll resist the temptation to do an "In Soviet Russia..." twist on that.


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 21, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> [furry orgy poster on sale on IMVU]



Okay well now I'm thoroughly confused. I thought they were against adult stuff? Props if you can find anything by major FA artists in there, I'm sure they'll love the news :3c


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 21, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> Okay well now I'm thoroughly confused. I thought they were against adult stuff? Props if you can find anything by major FA artists in there, I'm sure they'll love the news :3c


Take a look for yourself. Their store is filled with art from FA.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?keywords=furry&cat=107-1027-1446&page=1


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 21, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> Take a look for yourself. Their store is filled with art from FA.
> 
> http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?keywords=furry&cat=107-1027-1446&page=1



I assume I would need to sign up and whatnot to view any of the adult stuff though, which to be bluntly honest I'm more likely to recognise 






Edit: Oh wait, that's Blotch or something right?  Since FA is now owned by IMVU, it should be easy enough to report it, right?

_>file a DMCA_

Haha okay then


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I haven't the foggiest, but I would let Dragoneer know ASAP.



Concerns like this were brought up days ago. The concerns were either ignored, or insufficient answers were provided.
Dragoneer has since stopped responding to our (perfectly valid and still unanswered) questions.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when reading the thread earlier, but damn. You will bend over backwards to defend Dragoneer and the staff when they do not deserve the trust.


----------



## Draconas (Mar 21, 2015)

Why am I not surprised to see possibly stolen content that's being resold?


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 21, 2015)

Draconas said:


> Why am I not surprised to see *possibly stolen* content that's being resold?


Oh, no. Let me reassure you, sir.

This content is definitely stolen. 100%. I highly doubt a single one of those submissions was done with the permission of the commissioner or the artist.


----------



## Draconas (Mar 21, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> Oh, no. Let me reassure you, sir.
> 
> This content is definitely stolen. 100%. I highly doubt a single one of those submissions was done with the permission of the commissioner or the artist.



yes, I rethought my comment when I went to go take my morning bathroom trip and you're 100% right


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

It only took like it only took a day for IMVU to start stealing shit?


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 21, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> It only took like it only took a day for IMVU to start stealing shit?



That stuff has probably been on there for months, even years. It's only now that people have given enough of a shit about IMVU to actually look (since a week ago it was irrelevant nonsense)


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 21, 2015)

This is perhaps not surprising at all, and wrong on so many levels. Why do i have a bad feeling this is only going to be encouraged even more.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 21, 2015)

So are people going to have to make an account just to report that somebody stole their art? 
IMUV are geniuses ^ ^


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 21, 2015)

Man, Preyfar, if you thought you went through shit in the past, think again.

Now you have half a dozen and counting enraged popufurs and IP law violations on your hand. *You. Are.* *FUCKED*.


----------



## omegafolf (Mar 21, 2015)

Delta said:


> I mean, they paid for it and Neer, if he's smart, won't buy it back - what does that leave?



Even he wanted to buy it back, I doubt he'd be able to afford it. They'd make anyone who wants it pay at least 5 times the purchase amount.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 21, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Man, Preyfar, if you thought you went through shit in the past, think again.
> 
> Now you have half a dozen and counting enraged popufurs and IP law violations on your hand. *You. Are.* *FUCKED*.


Not to mention possible fraud from misusing donation money. The panderp stuff will hurt him also.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> That stuff has probably been on there for months, even years. It's only now that people have given enough of a shit about IMVU to actually look (since a week ago it was irrelevant nonsense)



Even better since I mean, I don't give a shit about "stolen art". But this whole shitfest is hilarious.


----------



## FoxWolfie (Mar 21, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> So are people going to have to make an account just to report that somebody stole their art?
> IMUV are geniuses ^ ^



No.  According to their policies, they won't take action on stolen art, unless an artist goes through the process of filing a DMCA take-down order. That normally means filling out forms and mailing proof of ownership to whatever government agency handles that stuff. Then, if the art is found to be yours, and that you acted in a timely manner, they'll tell IMVU to take it down. If an artist isn't willing to go through the DMCA process, then IMVU lets the stolen art stay on their site.

Their policy totally sucks for artists, and since FA is a site full of artists, their policy sucks for FA.  I expect that many artists will end up removing their art from here, as they become aware of what IMVU let's their users do.  If their policies on stolen art don't change, I'll be doing that myself. I'd feel better having my stuff only on furry-owned sites that cater to the needs of artists rather than of thieves.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 21, 2015)

Plot twist: IMVU bought FA so they could fill their store with stolen art.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> Plot twist: IMVU bought FA so they could fill their store with stolen art.



I can't believe anyone can honestly continue to defend this terrible choice after seeing this.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Don't get f*cking smart with me, wiseguy.



Dont be mad it whas an joke so relaxe ^^


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Don't get f*cking smart with me, wiseguy.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the donation drive was in OCTOBER, well before this sale was being discussed. If you're gonna criticize, fine. But stop pulling shit out of your asses!



https://donations.furaffinity.net/ (*Total Spent since 10/2014: $4,547.80)

$4,547 / $18,932
* 
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6311970/

Part of that money is going to prizes for the people who donated, good use of it  Point is he took in a lot of money for the specific use of fixing up the site and didn't do it. So all that money is just theirs now. Mind you, the whole donation thing had problems from the get go. Second, yes they were sold in January, but unless they come out with the details, companies don't just get bought out overnight, it's a long process. It happened in January sure, but the pre-planning had to have been within last year. Or maybe not, given how he didn't seem to read up on the specifics of the contract 
[h=1]Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/Â¯[/h]


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

Blitza said:


> Oh my God some one had today not his D*** s***
> 
> Dont be so soft Dumb Guy ^^



He makes it too easy and I understand, but I suggest not being so blunt with the insults if you are not going to provide relevant content. Volkodav said it a few pages back, but of all the threads Dragoneer has ever wanted locked for flimsy reasons, please don't give him incentive to lock this. This is much too important and we won't be able to make a new one.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> I can't believe anyone can honestly continue to defend this terrible choice after seeing this.



Yeah, I'm dying to see Pheagle's next mental acrobatics, too!


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> https://donations.furaffinity.net/ (*Total Spent since 10/2014: $4,547.80)
> 
> $4,547 / $18,932
> *
> ...



Didn't Dragoneer confirm that this had been going on for months?


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Didn't Dragoneer confirm that this had been going on for months?



The discussions of the sale? If he did I haven't seen it anywhere yet.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Didn't Dragoneer confirm that this had been going on for months?



I would check his personal journals on the matter. He's said a lot of damning things in the comments while responding to people.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> I would check his personal journals on the matter. He's said a lot of damning things in the comments while responding to people.



I checked a few of the journals, didn't find much but I'll keep looking, I did find this however...

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588505/#cid:44895101 He mentions here he quit his job, and one of his friends told me he quit on the 18th of January, so if he got a job working for IMVU then there's your approx date?

Also I wanted to bring this up 



> *11) How does this apply to FA United (www.faunited.org)?*
> Just like the website, nothing is changing in regards to the FA Unitedâ€™s  direction (except that we may have a larger budget for nicer events!).  The convention will still be held September 11-13, and the site is  launching early next month.



Anyone who was at FA:U last year (Like me! I was a secret volunteer!) will know that it isn't the most active con, it's in a really bad location and there's nothing good to do for the most part. That aside, I know it also helped put things in debt, so if he's getting more of a budget for it this year, who wants to bet there will be plenty of IMVU related activities there? Just speculation of course~


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

Neer stated some of the stolen art on my Journal, he did bann me so i cant really reply to him XD

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6595466/


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 21, 2015)

So I read almost this entire thread...
First off, if I learned anything in economics, it's this:
"All great decisions are based upon money."
(Of course FA isn't all that great, but neither is America but the only reason it fought for independence was because England was cutting off how they could make money and money problems etc)


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I checked a few of the journals, didn't find much but I'll keep looking, I did find this however...



http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588324/



> Fur Affinity (formerly a part of Ferrox Art LLC) was acquired by IMVU earlier this year in January 2015.





> was acquired by IMVU earlier this year in January 2015.





> *in January 2015*


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

Oh fun update to one of the questions : http://new.spring.me/#!/dragoneer/q/207732784 Regarding this post (http://i.imgur.com/gKB0MN0.png)



> Look, you can't afford FA. You can't. Why? Because whatever offer you'd  make to me you'd have to make to each and every staff member on this  website.
> 
> I'm not like other furry guys - I'm not here to take all  the credit from my staff to boost my appeal, I'm not here to profit  where they won't. Maybe you're looking for Certain Other Popular  Furries(tm).
> 
> Whatever offer you'd make to me you'd have to make to every other admin, mod and coder.



When asked about it on twitter : https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/579342228751052800 He writes 





> That's not something I wrote. That icon's not even one I've used in a long time.


 (Incase he removes it http://i.imgur.com/26D8LgD.png)

But not according to his own journal : http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1207013/ (Incase he removes it http://i.imgur.com/NzaSX5e.png)


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588324/



OH THAT, I thought you meant he referred to it months ago, as in the initial talks about the deal. My apologies...


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 21, 2015)

The only thing I see is that
'Neer couldn't afford FA anymore.
So
He sold it to someone who could.
WHY he chose IMVU of all places I can't say but
It's not for me to judge
All I can do is roll with the punches and see what happens next.
Either it can change for the better or for worse.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 21, 2015)

-artwork done by someone else is being sold
-this been going on for years 
-EVEN SECOND LIFE does this

just on Second life the major fucker who does this watermarks the images with THEIR signature, so it ends up being a battle to prove YOU did the actual drawing first.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

I honestly don't think those things being sold in their store is such a huge deal. Look at the usernames. This is stuff being sold by users, not by IMVU.
The only thing they are guilty of is poor moderation of that store.

Also, look at what's being sold there! Adult content! So who was concerned about them banning porn on FA? X3


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

TIL reposting openly available art with attribution and a working DNP == selling art without attribution, including art that's on DNP's everywhere (*cough*BERNAL*cough*)

This wouldn't be so bad if IMVU actually offered a takedown form, or even moderated their store at all, but no, the only way to actually remove something from their site is with a DMCA takedown, so for all you non-US artists out there, that's an invitation to go ahead and suck their nuts. IMVU doesn't care about policing copyright on their own damned storefront unless it's going to get them into legal hot water.



CaptainCool said:


> I honestly don't think those things being sold in their store is such a huge deal. Look at the usernames. This is stuff being sold by users, not by IMVU.
> The only thing they are guilty of is poor moderation of that store.


Except it's sold only in credits, which is the paid digital currency IMVU uses to lock in users' funds. IMVU *directly *profits from sale of credits in order to purchase these items.



> Also, look at what's being sold there! Adult content! So who was concerned about them banning porn on FA? X3


Yes, and it's behind a paywall.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Yeah, I'm dying to see Pheagle's next mental acrobatics, too!



What the fuck am I defending? I said someone should say something to Dragoneer. He was involved in the sale, was he not? Does that mean I'm somehow defending him? God, sometimes you're so damn stupid.

You don't want this thread locked; try not pulling this shit like you always do.



Rowedahelicon said:


> https://donations.furaffinity.net/ (*Total Spent since 10/2014: $4,547.80)
> 
> $4,547 / $18,932
> *
> ...



It's already been mentioned earlier that it wasn't.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> What the fuck am I defending? I said someone should say something to Dragoneer. He was involved in the sale, was he not? Does that mean I'm somehow defending him? God, sometimes you're so damn stupid.



Your solution to rampant unchecked art theft is to tell Dragoneer. What will that solve, exactly?


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> TIL reposting openly available art with attribution and a working DNP == selling art including art without attribution that's on DNP's everywhere (*cough*BERNAL*cough*)
> 
> This wouldn't be so bad if IMVU actually offered a takedown form, or even moderated their store at all, but no, the only way to actually remove something from their site is with a DMCA takedown, so for all you non-US artists out there, that's an invitation to go ahead and suck their nuts. IMVU doesn't care about policing copyright on their own damned storefront unless it's going to get them into legal hot water.
> 
> ...



oh wow....
I mean E621 is free, they have rules where you HAVE to tag properly/what you see and link to the source, and also have a DNP list that they do enforce.
Using the excuse "have ads" is moot in this day and age of AD BLOCK.
IMVU is is profiting off of this due to users having to buy the credits to do so, to add on top of that...its behind a paywall to be AP.

I mean I understand artist having problems with e621 due to their art is just being posted elsewhere without their control on it, but often they are fine as long as it links back to them in some way...but artist HATE MUCH MORE is websites that take their art...often free to view already and hide it behind a pay wall.

I mean I know Neer doesnt have a grasp on things but really neer you dont have a hells grasp on this concept.



PheagleAdler said:


> What the fuck am I defending? I said someone should say something to Dragoneer. He was involved in the sale, was he not? Does that mean I'm somehow defending him? God, sometimes you're so damn stupid.
> 
> You don't want this thread locked; try not pulling this shit like you always do.


yes yes cause Neer needs to be told what everyone else be told "tell those users to file a DMCA"


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> What the fuck am I defending? I said someone should say something to Dragoneer. He was involved in the sale, was he not? Does that mean I'm somehow defending him? God, sometimes you're so damn stupid.
> 
> You don't want this thread locked; try not pulling this shit like you always do.



If you'd actually read the thread, you'd know that we've been trying to. People have been asking him here, twitter, FA, etc.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> If you'd actually read the thread, you'd know that we've been trying to. People have been asking him here, twitter, FA, etc.



Very well, people are trying to, that doesn't mean I'm bending over backwards or some shit. The thread's gone to 20 pages, gimme a break.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Except it's sold only in credits, which is the paid digital currency IMVU uses to lock in users' funds. IMVU *directly *profits from sale of credits in order to purchase these items.
> 
> 
> Yes, and it's behind a paywall.



They do. But they aren't the ones directly selling it. They  As I said, it's just poor moderation.
Now that they have bought FA they really should offer some sort of takedown form though.

That wasn't my point that it is behind a paywall. My point was that they do allow adult content.
And do you have to pay to access this store? I have no idea, I didn't bother getting that far with it.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Very well, people are trying to, that doesn't mean I'm bending over backwards or some shit. The thread's gone to 20 pages, gimme a break.



Don't post without reading it then, that is common sense.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> That wasn't my point that it is behind a paywall. My point was that they do allow adult content.
> And do you have to pay to access this store? I have no idea, I didn't bother getting that far with it.



You're not even allowed to look at adult content items without a premium / AP? account, so yeah, you have to pay to access the store. Which makes copyright claims even tougher to police because guess what, probably half or more of the furry related items on the store are inaccessible to those who don't pay for it.

It's not "poor" moderation. It's "no" moderation. The only time they take action (read: the only time they give a shit) is when a DMCA is filed, because then they're *obligated* to remove it. Unless you're not from the US. In which case it's super easy to contest it and win.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 21, 2015)

IMVU is not reselling your work. However, users and individuals ARE posting work against the copyright holder's wishes. If you see work that was posted without permission, and you know the artist, encourage them to flag and report it. I've spoke to IMVU about it, and they will take action against all reports.

It's frustrating, but furry art *is* exceedingly popular on IMVU. And just like sites like 4chan, Red Bubble, Cafe Press, even Amazon and eBay, there are those out there who will try to harm artists and share their work without permission. And that's not something that I, nor IMVU, agree with. If you see it report it. Period.

Action will be taken, and both and IMVU's VP are aware of it. I literally just go done a call with my boss informing him of it*. FA nor IMVU accept content theft. Report it, and let their mods be aware that it's happening.*


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is not reselling your work. However, users and individuals ARE posting work against the copyright holder's wishes. If you see work that was posted without permission, and you know the artist, encourage them to flag and report it. I've spoke to IMVU about it, and they will take action against all reports.
> 
> It's frustrating, but furry art *is* exceedingly popular on IMVU. And just like sites like 4chan, Red Bubble, Cafe Press, even Amazon and eBay, there are those out there who will try to harm artists and share their work without permission. And that's not something that I, nor IMVU, agree with. If you see it report it. Period.
> 
> Action will be taken, and both and IMVU's VP are aware of it. I literally just go done a call with my boss informing him of it*. FA nor IMVU accept content theft. Report it, and let their mods be aware that it's happening.*



"Most of the art in question (AKA porn) is being sold behind a paywall so no one except members can see it"
"lol just report it"

Amazing.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 21, 2015)

But in order to report it to mods artist ate going to have to make an account if it's an adult piece of art pay for a premium account not to mention there is going to be an incredible amount of reports to go threw and if IMUV is anythinglike FA it will take weeksbto months for any sort of action to take place if any happens at all mean while the person in question gets to keep making money of the art.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is not reselling your work. However, users and individuals ARE posting work against the copyright holder's wishes. If you see work that was posted without permission, and you know the artist, encourage them to flag and report it. I've spoke to IMVU about it, and they will take action against all reports.


Okay, but they're profiting from it anyway. Will artists be compensated for the associated credits-> $ conversion upon a successful takedown? And what about AP content?



> It's frustrating, but furry art *is* exceedingly popular on IMVU. And just like sites like 4chan, Red Bubble, Cafe Press, even Amazon and eBay, there are those out there who will try to harm artists and *share* their work without permission. And that's not something that I, nor IMVU, agree with. If you see it report it. Period.


Most reputable sites have DNP's that respect the wishes of artists who don't want their art there. In the case of Amazon, eBay, Cafe Press, etc, the money is changing hands mainly between the purchaser and seller; In IMVU, *money is sent to IMVU and converted into valueless virtual currency*. Ergo, the only ones profiting from these sales are *IMVU*.



> Action will be taken, and both and IMVU's VP are aware of it. I literally just go done a call with my boss informing him of it.* FA nor IMVU accept content theft.*


Seems to me that they're pretty ambivalent about content theft despite their insistence otherwise - The process is lengthy and obtuse, and requires a formal DMCA complaint:



			
				IMVU TOS said:
			
		

> Copyright and Trademark Infringements
> 
> Only the intellectual property rights owner or the owner's authorized agent is permitted to report potentially infringing materials through IMVU's reporting system set forth below. If you are not the intellectual property rights owner or the owner's authorized agent, you should contact the intellectual property rights owner and they can choose whether to use the procedures set forth in these Terms.
> 
> ...



And since I have nothing more to say about THAT piece of cover-my-ass garbage, I'll leave you with one of the ads I get regularly while browsing their store:


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

See, that I didn't know. That is a problem for sure.
My views on copyright on the internet are maybe a little different (as in I think if you upload something to a public website it's pretty much gone and out of your hands) but I do hope they at least leave FA alone.
Maybe they are just after the active users? All we know so far is that they want to implement ads on the main site. From what I have seen here it has never been specified what kind of ads we are talking about.



Runefox said:


> And since I have nothing more to say about THAT piece of cover-my-ass garbage, I'll leave you with one of the ads I get regularly while browsing their store:



If they give 'Neer money to make the site better and just make money through stupid ads like that while leaving the site alone I'd be ok with that XD
Furry art has probably been sold there for a loooong time. No one cared. Now we know about the whole buyout and now we care?
I'm not protecting them, I don't like what happens here. I _did_ rewatch everyone on my watchlist on Weasyl so I'm ready to jump ships if FA sinks. But right now I'm trying to be neutral. Just wait where this is going and if worse comes to worst we all go to Weasyl or SoFurry. Problem solved and no one needs to get grey hairs over this ;D


----------



## Schiraki (Mar 21, 2015)

"Just reporting" means to fill out some kind of DMCA forms, thats what I heard. But this is something you can do as an american user, I am living in germany and I dont have an account on imvu. Not speaking of the fact that my english is simply not good enough to understand things like "officials english".
So....I am not able to report it if my art gets stolen?


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

IMVU should Clear that Problem before, if not they dont get any Trust By Users and artists from FA

I found alot of Spazzy KonekoÂ´s art who she did for Comissioners on FA, i wonder How she will be when she find out. Special when adult stuff from her is shared there and only Paying Members can see it or Report it.

Very nice that we got Buyed By IMVU, so we found out how they selling our comissions what WE Payed and what the ARTISTS did draw.

I dont Care if IMVU or members stealing the ART, its on there site so they must act or some Problems will ocour there.

Sorry my Grammar sucks so enjoy my wrong spelled english xd


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 21, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> ...sites like 4chan, Red Bubble, Cafe Press, even Amazon and eBay...



I'm pretty sure those sites don't constantly emphasize how they're communities centered around artists and creative works. All of the major furry art sites, and places like deviantart, have measures in place to protect the rights of artists. IMVU does nothing unless you basically threaten legal action (DMCA), _and directly profit from it_.

Edit: Damn that was a lot of replies while I made this.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> I'm pretty sure those sites don't constantly emphasize how they're communities centered around artists and creative works. All of the major furry art sites, and places like deviantart, have measures in place to protect the rights of artists. IMVU does nothing unless you basically threaten legal action (DMCA), _and directly profit from it_.
> 
> Edit: Damn that was a lot of replies while I made this.



To add to that, 4chan has a built in reverse google image button so basically they're getting outdone by vanilla 4chan. A+ 10/10


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> Furry art has probably been sold there for a loooong time. No one cared. Now we know about the whole buyout and now we care?


No one cared because it was a dying community that obviously a lot of FA hasn't heard of before. Now that they have their fingers in the pie that *creates* this content, people care, yes.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> No one cared because it was a dying community that obviously a lot of FA hasn't heard of before. Now that they have their fingers in the pie that *creates* this content, people care, yes.



And I ask does it matter anyway when people decided to care?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> And I ask does it matter anyway when people decided to care?



Well, I'm pretty sure they *cared* before, they just didn't know about it.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> And I ask does it matter anyway when people decided to care?



Yes we do when we buy for art and someone put it up there and sell it without any word to us or the Artists.

They make Money since you Need to pay for an VIP Account to see adult art, so yes thats not fair and right.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

One thing that I have been alerted to is that the piece I found was posted in 2013, and I'm sure others are the same, so this wasn't a result of the sale, it was only discovered because of the sale. But quite frankly, IMVU should be more active about this in getting the stolen pieces taken down, if they haven't already.



Runefox said:


> And since I have nothing more to say about THAT piece of cover-my-ass garbage, I'll leave you with one of the ads I get regularly while browsing their store:




...wow. That's quite a horrific ad.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Blitza said:


> Yes we do when we buy for art and someone put it up there and sell it without any word to us or the Artists.
> 
> They make Money since you Need to pay for an VIP Account to see adult art, so yes thats not fair and right.



I think what TheArchiver meant was that it shouldn't matter *when* people started to care, it's still a bad thing an nothing to do with the drama storm except that it's been brought to our attention.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> One thing that I have been alerted to is that the piece I found was posted in 2013, and I'm sure others are the same, so this wasn't a result of the sale, it was only discovered because of the sale. But quite frankly, IMVU should be more active about this in getting the stolen pieces taken down, if they haven't already.



Totally agree with you


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large


Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.



PheagleAdler said:


> One thing that I have been alerted to is that the piece I found was posted in 2013, and I'm sure others are the same, so this wasn't a result of the sale, it was only discovered because of the sale. But quite frankly, IMVU should be more active about this in getting the stolen pieces taken down, if they haven't already.



Yes. That's the other side of the issue. They clearly don't care and have never cared if this dates back to 2 years ago possibly earlier. So selling an art hosting site to them was a rather poor choice.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large
> 
> 
> Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.



Ok now i dont take Neer for real anymore, what an shit what he wrote there.... sorry


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> One thing that I have been alerted to is that the piece I found was posted in 2013



Not that I'm contesting this (I've found some where the description dated the submission), but there aren't any submission dates on the store items to check for. There's also no metric for how many have been sold or how many views it's gotten, no tags, no nothing that would help copyright holders in cases like this. As a copyright holder you literally have to leaf through every submission to see if there's anything being sold with your work on it. IMVU's been around since 2006, and it's 2015 today. It seems to me that they've never taken this very seriously, and why should they as long as they aren't accountable for it and they're getting paid in real dollars in exchange for funbucks either way?


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large
> 
> 
> Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.



I'd type "lol" but I don't think that comes even close to describing how hilarious this is.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large
> 
> 
> Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.
> ...



Omg is he trying to say you should be flattered if your art is stolen?

I guess by that logic, rape victims should take their assault as a testament to how attractive they are.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large
> 
> 
> Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.



Granted, it's not the best thing to say right now, but when people say shit like this, they're not saying art theft is okay, nor should they expect you to be "okay" with it because it means your art is 'popular'

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/579359087034540034

Even he admits it was a stupid thing to say, so there you go, I guess.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 21, 2015)

OMG i love Cars so i start stealing them and all is fine, honist that Statement from Neer did hurt him pretty much.

I mean who would think what he wrote is any near normal ?

Neer should we happy that our get stolen because we get Famous ??? just LOL really sad day ...


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Granted, it's not the best thing to say right now, but when people say shit like this, they're not saying art theft is okay, nor should they expect you to be "okay" with it because it means your art is 'popular'
> 
> https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/579359087034540034
> 
> Even he admits it was a stupid thing to say, so there you go, I guess.



The fact that he thought such a thing was appropriate in the first place is frightening. He's only apologizing because he got exposed. I know he wasn't saying art theft is ok, but that statement shows how little he actually cares.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large



Who's the hero who scren shot this the deserve a medal since it appears to have been removed from his tweets also we still have yet to get an answer to the question everyone wants to know.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> The fact that he thought such a thing was appropriate in the first place is frightening. He's only apologizing because he got exposed. I know he wasn't saying art theft is ok, but that statement shows how little he actually cares.


I figure it's like if I say something without thinking and take it right back, it may be instantaneous for me, but with how many people are watching his Twitter like a hawk, the second he posts anything it'll be exposed.



Runefox said:


> Not that I'm contesting this (I've found some where the description dated the submission), but there aren't any submission dates on the store items to check for. There's also no metric for how many have been sold or how many views it's gotten, no tags, no nothing that would help copyright holders in cases like this. As a copyright holder you literally have to leaf through every submission to see if there's anything being sold with your work on it. IMVU's been around since 2006, and it's 2015 today. It seems to me that they've never taken this very seriously, and why should they as long as they aren't accountable for it and they're getting paid in real dollars in exchange for funbucks either way?



Well, that's annoying. Guess this one was lucky enough to have a "review" on it (from the person who stole it)



mcjoel said:


> Who's the hero who scren shot this the deserve a medal since it appears to have been removed from his tweets also we still have yet to get an answer to the question everyone wants to know.



*drama whore
I don't feel like posted then immediately deleted tweets are relevant, that goes for anyone. God, I can feel the accusations against me building again, "you're defending Neer" Nooo...I'm defending anyone who has a second opinion about what they just posted.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I figure it's like if I say something without thinking and take it right back, it may be instantaneous for me, but with how many people are watching his Twitter like a hawk, the second he posts anything it'll be exposed.



Which is really why either he should keep those comments on a separate personal Twitter account or think long and hard before clicking the tweet button.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Which is really why either he should keep those comments on a separate personal Twitter account or think *long and hard* before clicking the tweet button.



Giggity.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large



Disgraceful.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> Who's the hero who scren shot this the deserve a medal since it appears to have been removed from his tweets also we still have yet to get an answer to the question everyone wants to know.



I imagine the good folks at Vivisector or FurAffinityPR on Twitter.


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large.


Disgusting remark. Even though I know he isn't trying to say that you should be flattered if your art is stolen, it certainly gives off that impression, and his lack of care for the matter.
What a disgrace.


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 21, 2015)

Well by now i am sure that link is being passed around. Really not cool right there.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large
> 
> 
> Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.


"You should be flattered that people would steal your art! In fact, you should be thanking us for the extra publicity."


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> "You should be flattered that people would steal your art! In fact, you should be thanking paying us for the extra publicity."



FTFY, since premium accounts are required to view most of the stolen content.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 21, 2015)

the only thing this now current event caused is a possibility of many artist probably hitting IMVU with DMCA's since thats the only way to remove the item. (dont give me that report shit, I been there and the IMVU community is already confirming that reporting HARDLY does anything) IF anything that could cause bad things for IMVU's FURRY community (still laughing at the whole "large" part) as they will see em as a problem for this influx of DMCA's...
but who knows what will actually happen?
At the end of the day, Neer has a boss, he cant really do anything for us other than repeat what his boss say which most likely be: "File a DMCA"


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> the only thing this now current event caused is a possibility of many artist probably hitting IMVU with DMCA's since thats the only way to remove the item. (dont give me that report shit, I been there and the IMVU community is already confirming that reporting HARDLY does anything)



I've tried to flag (for whatever that's worth), but no, you have to have a user account to do so. Right on the "product" pages there's a link to a page with another link to the ToS stating specifically that the procedure is to file a DMCA takedown request. There's no other way. Since DMCA takedowns from foreign copyright holders are easy to shrug off, it's very easy to counter-claim, and in any event, the money is already in IMVU's pockets.



Verin Asper said:


> At the end of the day, Neer has a boss, he cant really do anything for us other than repeat what his boss say which most likely be: "File a DMCA"



Speaking of that, I wonder how his boss feels about him calling on a Saturday to ask him what to do about something that's clearly defined in the ToS after making blunder after blunder publicly on social media. I hope Mr. Harvey gets used to it soon! Or is it Mr. Durrett?


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large
> 
> 
> Dragoneer...your integrity is absolutely nullified.



I hope the people at IMVU sees this.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CApMEbCVEAAGTUy.jpg:large








Also it's nice to see he skipped a lot of the questions to give us these wonderful messages

EDIT






Requesting your typical screenshot of any IMVU page at any time without adblocker. 

Also, I sure hope everyone knows how hard it is to get third-party ads on a site with the kind of content FA has.


----------



## Brass (Mar 21, 2015)

I want to code my own FA. It'll have blackjack and dog hookers.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Requesting your typical screenshot of any IMVU page at any time without adblocker.








There's another ad on the left side further down and another banner on the footer. Also yes these are the typical ads (this is the top of the page for one of the stolen items). Flash ads are common and crash my browser when there are too many of them running. Many, even non-flash, are blinking or strobing. For example, there's a flashing "read more" link on the "muscle" ad.

Here's a cap of the userpage of one of the art thieves. If you want to see the page for yourself... Well... http://avatars.imvu.com/DJKitsuFox. Note that hovering over pretty much anything brings up a "buy sticker" link.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 21, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I hope the people at IMVU sees this.


Behind closed doors they are likely looking for any reason to kick him downstairs or out of the house. Anything. That way they will have complete control.

Oh! And say goodbye to being able to use FA on your phones! Because you're gonna get a shitload of redirect-to-appstore ads. Likely from King.com (eww).

"Furries hate him! Check out this Virginian's one weird trick to sell a company."


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> If you want to see the page for yourself... Well... http://avatars.imvu.com/DJKitsuFox



I just vomited out of my nose. I'm not sure turning adblock off would even be noticeable.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> There's another ad on the left side further down and another banner on the footer. Also yes these are the typical ads (this is the top of the page for one of the stolen items). Flash ads are common and crash my browser when there are too many of them running. Many, even non-flash, are blinking or strobing. For example, there's a flashing "read more" link on the "muscle" ad.
> 
> Here's a cap of the userpage of one of the art thieves. If you want to see the page for yourself... Well... http://avatars.imvu.com/DJKitsuFox. Note that hovering over pretty much anything brings up a "buy sticker" link.



Holy shit XD

And mormon ads...? Oh well, I guess I don't have to worry about religious ads popping up on FA. There is no way the bearers of the magical underwear would want to have ads on a site where people worship the Red Rocket! XD


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> If you want to see the page for yourself... Well... http://avatars.imvu.com/DJKitsuFox



Oh holy shit, it's even worse than I imagined. It looks like they let you embed your own raw HTML in there. It's even got user-created iframes of all things. And people thought FA's security practices were poor, ahahaha. How is this site still running?


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> Oh holy shit, it's even worse than I imagined. It looks like they let you embed your own raw HTML in there. It's even got user-created iframes of all things. And people thought FA's security practices were poor, ahahaha. How is this site still running?



I guess the fact that no one has ever heard of them is their best protection


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Such relevant ads


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

I have a modified HOSTS file to block ads, I guess for me FA will look a lot like this later on: http://abload.de/img/imvuwgs9g.jpg


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 21, 2015)

How is older people even an online market? How many older people do you know that even use a computer? IMVU must be out of their minds.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> I have a modified HOSTS file to block ads, I guess for me FA will look a lot like this later on: http://abload.de/img/imvuwgs9g.jpg



Wait how did you block ads by modifying the HOSTS file? o.0 That file is for DNS.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> How is older people even an online market? How many older people do you know that even use a computer? IMVU must be out of their minds.



It doesn't really matter. They are thirdparty ads. So depending on the deal they have they still get money even if people don't actually click on the ads.
Also, that is a chat site for kids and teens. Of course there will be some creepy old people visiting the site as well :V


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Wait how did you block ads by modifying the HOSTS file? o.0 That file is for DNS.


Most ads are not served via a static IP.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Wait how did you block ads by modifying the HOSTS file? o.0 That file is for DNS.



Simple. It takes the adress of an ad server and replaces it with 0.0.0.0, which results in that error you see in the screenshot and no ads are loaded.
Within the file that looks like this:
0.0.0.0 ads.activepower.net

The big advantage is that I need no plugins or anything like that. Ads (and the resulting malware) are blocked on my whole system, no matter which program I use.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> Simple. It takes the adress of an ad server and replaces it with 0.0.0.0, which results in that error you see in the screenshot and no ads are loaded.
> Within the file that looks like this:
> 0.0.0.0 ads.activepower.net
> 
> The big advantage is that I need no plugins or anything like that. Ads (and the resulting malware) are blocked on my whole system, no matter which program I use.



Ha~! Now that is smart. I never thought of blocking ads by modifying the HOSTS file. 
Me, I just use adblock plus. As for malware, well, I run Ubuntu Linux. Malware's the last thing I need to worry about. And just for extra redundancy I found an anti-virus for Unix/Linux systems that runs in the background at all times.


----------



## Vaelarsa (Mar 21, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Omg is he trying to say you should be flattered if your art is stolen?
> 
> I guess by that logic, rape victims should take their assault as a testament to how attractive they are.


Well, considering who he's had on staff before, color me unsurprised.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Ha~! Now that is smart. I never thought of blocking ads by modifying the HOSTS file.
> Me, I just use adblock plus. As for malware, well, I run Ubuntu Linux. Malware's the last thing I need to worry about. And just for extra redundancy I found an anti-virus for Unix/Linux systems that runs in the background at all times.



Adblock does work pretty well, but it's just a browser plugin. I like to have as little plugins in my browsers to keep the performance high.
A modified HOSTS file works on Android devices as well, but sadly you need root to access it... And on a device like that this file is even more useful because apps can show ads as well which are then also blocked.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> Adblock does work pretty well, but it's just a browser plugin. I like to have as little plugins in my browsers to keep the performance high.
> A modified HOSTS file works on Android devices as well, but sadly you need root to access it... And on a device like that this file is even more useful because apps can show ads as well which are then also blocked.



Ah, that's tricky. I can use "sudo" in the terminal to temporarily gain root privilages to modify the HOSTS file (or whatever Linux calls it, I forgot, even though I should know it)
But yea on a phone I think root access is locked down tight because Jailbreaking involves using root to modify system files. (And I think we're derailing here XD maybe carry this convo on somewhere else yes?)


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

How long until adblock discussion is forbidden?


----------



## nrr (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> How long until adblock discussion is forbidden?



I'm surprised this thread isn't already locked.


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> How long until adblock discussion is forbidden?



There will be banners that link to the IMVU store under the ads :V


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> It's frustrating, but furry art *is* exceedingly popular on IMVU. And just like sites like 4chan, Red Bubble, Cafe Press, even Amazon and eBay, there are those out there who will try to harm artists and share their work without permission. And that's not something that I, nor IMVU, agree with. If you see it report it. Period.
> 
> Action will be taken, and both and IMVU's VP are aware of it. I literally just go done a call with my boss informing him of it*. FA nor IMVU accept content theft. Report it, and let their mods be aware that it's happening.*



Thank you for the reply, Dragoneer.
Though this still raises some concerns; IMVU members have openly admitted that art theft went on so rampantly over there (despite reports and despite it being known) that they had to shut down a section of their art/skin/whatever sales area. If IMVU is going to take on FA, they should at least know that most artists take art theft (and even reposting without credit) very seriously. The requests of IMVU for artists to submit DMCA notices is iffy to me because burden of proof should not be put on the shoulders of artists, rather the "artists" who are selling art that they don't own. What's even more concerning is that all of this art (I was on mobile, but I at least saw Blotch's art) is 18+ and therefore hidden behind a paywall.
How is IMVU going to handle this situation? If we can't see that our art is being stolen, how can we report it? Why should we have to jump through the hoops of a DMCA notice to prove that we own the art, when IMVU's staff members could put restrictions in on their own userbase that puts the burden of proof on them?
On every site there are users who don't report art theft like this, either out of lack of concern or laziness -- this kind of mentality (though not the fault of IMVU staff members) is incredbily common and allows art theft to go uncontrolled. Is IMVU prepared for that sort of backlash?
I'm sorry for asking questions that are half-and-half for you and half for IMVU, but because IMVU hasn't even attempted to address our concerns here, I see no other choice.


*@PheagleAdler*:
I understand your desire to help concerned users out by answering their questions, but these are questions that only Dragoneer and/or IMVU can answer, so your answers -- though appreciated -- won't be of much help. I have to ask that you just please chill out for a bit and take a break if you feel you're getting angry, this sort of hostile attitude _can, does, and will_ get good threads shut down. I've seen numerous comments deleted already and I feel that it will happen shortly if users aren't acting civil :/


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Well, personally I use Chrome with uBlock, Disconnect and Avast! Online Security. One thing your standard HOSTS-based filter won't get is tracker scripts hosted on public CDN's because it's too granular. Things like Twitter, G+, Facebook, etc integration and tracking aren't targeted for example. It's also a pain to keep HOSTS files up to date without scripts, and those still need a bit of babysitting over time. It's more efficient to do HOSTS filtering, sure, but it's a whole lot more convenient to just run the plugins. Also kills the text ads.

At any rate, that combo quite neatly kills the ads and trackers on FurAffinity and on IMVU. I recommend all users adopt a similar setup.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Most people have some sort of ad-blocker in place, I think. What I want to know is how (or if) IMVU will try to get around this. Will we be receiving messages to buy premium account upgrades or something like the users currently do over on IMVU?


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/579411034202619905

So we have Fender, Rednef, when are we getting a fursona based off his boss?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Another thing that people aren't really talking about is that there's a system in place where users are *encouraged* to make "derivations" of existing works on the store - That is, to take an object or item and modify / reskin it for resale as a separate item. There's an entire tree system set up for tracing an item's lineage, even. For a company that seems very vocal about their supposed strong stance on copyright infringement, they certainly seem pretty cavalier about it on their own service. Of course, having more items for sale on the store increases the amount of money spent in it.

So, let's recap for a minute. IMVU:

1) Has a paywall for adult content - No exceptions

2) Requires an account to flag content - No exceptions

3) Requires a DMCA takedown notice to actually issue a takedown of stolen content

4) *Encourages* "borrowing" others' works to create and sell derivative works (for credits, which must be purchased in real money and cannot be "cashed out", thus ensuring that sales of items whether they are protected by copyright or are clones of other items directly benefits IMVU regardless, even if later taken down)

5) Has virtually no moderation of their storefront (see point #4 for why)

6) Has extremely sketchy ads that have crashed a stock Chrome browser on multiple occasions

7) Has userpages that are so insecure that they run *iFrame* content of all things

8) Has openly acknowledged an intent to enforce point #6 on FurAffinity with Dragoneer's blessing (who knows what else they'll do if people block the ads, let alone if Dragoneer gets fired/etc as discussed earlier)

Am I missing anything?

Oh right, and they also hired Dragoneer, whose first response to fears of art theft involving *actual sales and profits for IMVU* was "it happens all the time lol" and further dismissal as a non-issue until enough people yelled at him to get him to "ask his boss about it".


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Another thing that people aren't really talking about is that there's a system in place where users are *encouraged* to make "derivations" of existing works on the store - That is, to take an object or item and modify / reskin it for resale as a separate item. There's an entire tree system set up for tracing an item's lineage, even. For a company that seems very vocal about their supposed strong stance on copyright infringement, they certainly seem pretty cavalier about it on their own service. Of course, having more items for sale on the store increases the amount of money spent in it.
> 
> So, let's recap for a minute. IMVU:
> 
> ...



The more I read about this stuff, the worse I feel about the whole thing.

Even if technically speaking, IMVU won't exactly steal everyone's artwork, if this is the kind of business they operate and treat artists and art theft...It's an insult to the artists that Dragoneer chose them as the best place to help out.


----------



## nrr (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Another thing that people aren't really talking about is that there's a system in place where users are *encouraged* to make "derivations" of existing works on the store



Before you dig too much deeper into this, have you checked the service's terms and conditions to make sure there isn't a clause that grants an automatic license to create derivative works outside of the framework of fair use? Some sites are kinda sneaky this way.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

nrr said:


> Before you dig too much deeper into this, have you checked the service's terms and conditions to make sure there isn't a clause that grants an automatic license to create derivative works outside of the framework of fair use? Some sites are kinda sneaky this way.



I'm not saying that IMVU encourages copyright infringement, but IMVU does encourage these derivative works, and I imagine there is a clause to that effect in the ToS that I'm not terribly interested in reading about. But the fact that this exists there, combined with the language we know exists within the contract for FurAffinity's sale also confirms that they may have some kind of plans for this in the future, even if Dragoneer believes it's only going to be used for advertising/promotional purposes such as taking a screenshot of the front page / a user page. The fact that we know of no limitations to the reach of those rights means that for legal purposes we can only assume that they are not limited.


----------



## nrr (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> IMVU does encourage these derivative works



The context clue of just letting them proliferate through inaction does not immediately imply that they encourage such works. Given the nature of IMVU as a service provider and the existence of tools to facilitate takedowns, I don't know how you could make a conclusion like that.



Runefox said:


> But the fact that this exists there, combined with the language we know exists within the contract for FurAffinity's sale



Have you seen the language of the contract first-hand? How do you know that it's there?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

nrr said:


> The context clue of just letting them proliferate through inaction does not immediately imply that they encourage such works. Given the nature of IMVU as a service provider and the existence of tools to facilitate takedowns, I don't know how you could make a conclusion like that.


I know how, but since you're looking for more evidence:















And the help page on the subject explaining how to create a derivation for sale without any reference to copyright.



> Have you seen the language of the contract first-hand? How do you know that it's there?


The language that was leaked was confirmed by Dragoneer, who has obviously seen it.

EDIT: In case you want a screencap for the latter, too:


----------



## Vo (Mar 21, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Disgraceful.



Oh, relax. He's already said that everyone involved finds this unacceptable and they [say they] are going to take care of it. That's a _separate_ issue from the fact that all the stolen furry art on IMVU is a good demonstration of the overlap in the communities, and why this acquisition makes sense in some way. Of course, everyone's already got their pitchforks sharpened, so they're just going to take the least charitable interpretation of everything Neer says and run with it. 

This whole situation already smells funny and in much bigger ways. We don't need to stretch for flimsy issues like this.


----------



## nrr (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I know how, but since you're looking for more evidence



Interesting.



Runefox said:


> The language that was leaked was confirmed by Dragoneer, who has obviously seen it.



That was Dragoneer confirming that such language existed. I'm convinced there was no such language actually leaked anywhere, which still leaves a lot of questions open. I mean, sure, "basically, for ad purposes," but since we haven't seen that clause first-hand, we don't know for sure. We can't, e.g., hire our own counsel to confirm our suspicions.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

nrr said:


> That was Dragoneer confirming that such language existed. I'm convinced there was no such language actually leaked anywhere, which still leaves a lot of questions open. I mean, sure, "basically, for ad purposes," but since we haven't seen that clause first-hand, we don't know for sure. We can't, e.g., hire our own counsel to confirm our suspicions.


This is true, but confirmation that the language existed is enough to know that they have at least that right to FurAffinity content. We don't know what, if any, limits are in place or under what situations the language applies, but we know it exists. That's enough to be very scary, when putting these pieces together. For now, all we have are Dragoneer's word that he can block them from doing anything "harmful" to FA, and IMVU's assurances that, at least for the moment, all they plan to do is rig FA with ads similar to what's plastered all over their own site. All the language has been carefully chosen, however, as not to preclude a future decision to reverse course. Dragoneer being an IMVU employee at this point means that there's no way for him to prevent such a decision, no matter what his delusions of control might tell him.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

You know if this was fake, how did he not realize that at first???


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

It would help a lot if Dragoneer would just post the agreement instead of leaking bits and pieces of info from this so-called NDA.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I know how, but since you're looking for more evidence:


I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 21, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> You know if this was fake, how did he not realize that at first???



One really has to wonder.  The original quote is derived from FurryDrama_2 on LiveJournal where a user was musing on possible, theoretical TOS terms that IMVU might impose.  A few immediately thought they were quoting something from IMVU but they quickly were all 'Oh no no, I was just musing!' yet somehow Dragoneer didn't even know it wasn't really one of the terms IMVU had imposed... You have to wonder if there's a propose new but yet unreleased TOS with contents similar to this?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

What the fuck....


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Mar 21, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> One really has to wonder.  The original quote is derived from FurryDrama_2 on LiveJournal where a user was musing on possible, theoretical TOS terms that IMVU might impose.  A few immediately thought they were quoting something from IMVU but they quickly were all 'Oh no no, I was just musing!' yet somehow Dragoneer didn't even know it wasn't really one of the terms IMVU had imposed... You have to wonder if there's a propose new but yet unreleased TOS with contents similar to this?



It all goes back to the initial comments of he probably didn't even read the damn thing. The fact that he had an answer at the ready though then later said it was fake and that they're not planning on doing anything is my favorite part of this.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

And I missed the memo that said this wasn't real language. So several possibilities are open there:

1) He didn't read the contract.

2) The contract *actually does* have this language in it.

3) Both.

My bet is that if 1) is true then it's probably 3).


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> And I missed the memo that said this wasn't real language. So several possibilities are open there:
> 
> 1) He didn't read the contract.
> 
> ...



Or from what im assuming this was a completely horrid deal, meaning the reason why they don't want to share any info is because this was a word of mouth transaction and they now have to do negotiations. The constant journal updates are annoying me a bit now.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Surely this of all things could be discussed or clarified publicly now that it's been leaked numerous times _by Dragoneer himself_? Idk
This shit is giving me a headache.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 21, 2015)

It seems Dragoneer is about to regret banning Row...


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> It seems Dragoneer is about to regret banning Row...



Yea I just noticed that like wtf.
And why is he gonna regret it?


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Surely this of all things could be discussed or clarified publicly now that it's been leaked numerous times _by Dragoneer himself_? Idk
> This shit is giving me a headache.



To be clear, I was mistaken: It wasn't leaked, it was a hypothetical comment originally posted on furrydrama_2 that Dragoneer seemed to be familiar enough with to respond to. Which means either he wasn't familiar with the contract, or there actually is something like that in it.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> To be clear, it wasn't leaked, it was a hypothetical comment originally posted on furrydrama_2 that Dragoneer seemed to be familiar enough with to respond to. Which means either he wasn't familiar with the contract, or there actually is something like that in it.


I wasn't really referring to that comment by that user, rather the ones Dragoneer made himself in this thread (before promptly clamming up) and the reply to that user in the screencap. If this is an NDA, he's already run his mouth quite a bit.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 21, 2015)

Seriously he did absolutely nothing wrong according to the forums rules that I saw.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I wasn't really referring to that comment by that user, rather the ones Dragoneer made himself in this thread (before promptly clamming up) and the reply to that user in the screencap. If this is an NDA, he's already run his mouth quite a bit.



That's true. I can't imagine that won him any points with his new boss, either.


----------



## Brass (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Most people have some sort of ad-blocker in place, I think. What I want to know is how (or if) IMVU will try to get around this. Will we be receiving messages to buy premium account upgrades or something like the users currently do over on IMVU?



Anything they put in place I'm sure there is something err -someone- can make to circumvent it to some degree. I have no love for IMVU. Hardly any for FA. I'm more worried about the fate of the forums honestly.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Brass said:


> Anything they put in place I'm sure there is something err -someone- can make to circumvent it to some degree. I have no love for IMVU. Hardly any for FA. I'm more worried about the fate of the forums honestly.



"To view the larger version of this image, please install our new FurAffinity Experience plugin, powered by Conduit --LIMITED TIME OFFER-- Install the FurAffinity Experience plugin today and receive exclusive deals on hot internet products! Just make sure to keep 'Install Deals' checked during installation - We've already done it for you!"


----------



## nrr (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> That's true. I can't imagine that won him any points with his new boss, either.



I made a remark about social and political equity back on page 14 of this thread. Those two things are finite resources, and with the kind of accountability that sits behind FA's operations now, they'll become very finite very quickly depending on the success metrics in use to gauge the business value that FA brings.


----------



## Brass (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Most people have some sort of ad-blocker in place, I think. What I want to know is how (or if) IMVU will try to get around this. Will we be receiving messages to buy premium account upgrades or something like the users currently do over on IMVU?





Runefox said:


> "To view the larger version of this image, please install our new FurAffinity Experience plugin"



Not even DA resorts to this level of stupidity.

I really wish I could help you chuckle fucks. That I could give you all a something that isn't complete bullshit in every regard. I hate to say it but this stupid fandom relies heavily on this shitty site even with all of its competitors.  However the way I see it, what's done is done. Can we please talk about what we do from here on out? How do we make the best of this situation?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Brass said:


> I'm more worried about the fate of the forums honestly.


That's one of my concerns as well. You can't even say "porno" over there, it has to be ****'d out.



Brass said:


> However the way I see it, what's done is done. Can we please talk about what we do from here on out? How do we make the best of this situation?



That's what we're trying to do, but getting clear answers is like pulling teeth.


----------



## Brass (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> That's one of my concerns as well. You can't even say "porno" over there, it has to be ****'d out.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what we're trying to do, but getting clear answers is like pulling teeth.



I mean we can just assume the worse and figure out where to go from there. But assuming and speculating too much into what's going on/what's going to happen will solve nothing and likely just piss off the mods into banning a bunch of people.  I really don't think we're going to get very clear answers any time soon. MODS = GODS etc


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Brass said:


> Can we please talk about what we do from here on out? How do we make the best of this situation?



The obvious first step is abandon ship.

If you're not willing to do that, then the best thing you can do as an artist is to branch out to other sites and establish separate fanbases from the ground up while FA is in its transition period. That way if/when something actually does go tits-up, you have something to fall back on in the meantime while everyone reflects upon their life choices.

If possible, have and link to a "business card" page with your contact information and links to other galleries, with nice-to-haves like commission info/examples as optionals. Encourage any watchers you have on FurAffinity to watch you elsewhere, and make it a point to keep all of your galleries up to date - If this means choosing only one or two extra galleries, then so be it. Don't neglect these! If it comes down to a mass exodus for any reason, your dedicated watchers will take comfort in knowing that they won't have to figure out where you're active, and wherever they eventually settle, they'll be able to access your art.

That's kind of a doomsday scenario, but it's still a good idea to branch out as people begin to find the new ownership distasteful. While some are leaving now, others are cautiously branching out and others still are remaining where they are. As time goes on, the more artists and users who branch out, the less likely that any negative effects of the acquisition will affect you, or at least, not in a catastrophic way.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm not assuming, I'm asking questions that aren't really being answered. (Unless they're being answered on the main-site, in which case I can't see because my browser will crash due to mass amounts of comments)
Nothing I'm doing or what anybody else is doing here is ban-worthy. This thread has remained (surprisingly) civil and on-topic.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Nothing I'm doing or what anybody else is doing here is ban-worthy. This thread has remained (surprisingly) civil and on-topic.



Tell that to whoever banned Rowedahelicon.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 21, 2015)

I honestly don't get the commotion here.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Tell that to whoever banned Rowedahelicon.



I looked at his twitter and apparently he was permabanned for "spreading rumors as facts and contributing to drama"

I other words, speculation is now bannable lol.

Guess we all gotta toe the line and know our place.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Tell that to whoever banned Rowedahelicon.


I know better than to start trying to discuss user bannings, heh..


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> I honestly don't get the commotion here.



If you're not an artist or if you're not someone who relies on commissions, then you're probably not going to see much point in any of this, because it doesn't affect you directly. At least, not right now.


----------



## Brass (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> The obvious first step is abandon ship.
> 
> If you're not willing to do that, then the best thing you can do as an artist is to branch out to other sites and establish separate fanbases from the ground up while FA is in its transition period. That way if/when something actually does go tits-up, you have something to fall back on in the meantime while everyone reflects upon their life choices.
> 
> ...



This is rather important information. There are a handful of art sites other than FA but I don't think there is a comprehensive list on them. We should likely compile an informational list on the different sites that can be used, pro-cons, sites that can be used as link hubs for their different accounts, etc. Kind of like a digital bug-out bag if something happens. Even if something doesn't happen, it could still be a good resource for artists wanting to branch out and reach a maximum audience.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> If you're not an artist or if you're not someone who relies on commissions, then you're probably not going to see much point in any of this, because it doesn't affect you directly. At least, not right now.



So far I heard of art stealing. In which if prepaid commissions are done, this shouldn't be a problem. But if some asshole decides to not make it, than I can see an issue.

Can someone explain to me the stresses of art stealing if that's the main problem?


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> So far I heard of art stealing. In which if prepaid commissions are done, this shouldn't be a problem. But if some asshole decides to not make it, than I can see an issue.
> 
> Can someone explain to me the stresses of art stealing if that's the main problem?



I think it's because it can't get reported very easily or whatever


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> So far I heard of art stealing. In which if prepaid commissions are done, this shouldn't be a problem. But if some asshole decides to not make it, than I can see an issue.
> 
> Can someone explain to me the stresses of art stealing if that's the main problem?



I'm afraid that would take a whole other thread to properly explain, but the basic gist of it in this context is:

-Artist makes art, posts it online. Might be personal, might be a commission, whatever, it's online.
-Thief sees art, saves it and creates an item for sale in the shop at IMVU without notifying the artist or even giving them a namedrop
-IMVU users buy credits with real money, then spend credits on stolen artwork
-Thief gets credits for the artwork, IMVU gets money for the artwork
-Artist gets nothing

The further problem:

-IMVU requires artist to file a formal legal complaint (DMCA) to remove the stolen art from the store
-If accepted, the artist is not reimbursed for the money that was spent on the stolen art
-If outside the US, an artist stands to require a longer wait for acceptance or face a tougher time against counter-claims, since the DMCA is a US law
-In addition, IMVU hides adult content behind a paid service, so artists aren't able to see if their art has even been sold or not, let alone file a takedown


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 21, 2015)

Damn, I don't really know what to think anymore, this has become so clouded with speculations, rumors, and drama that nothing is really making sense. I mean, geez Im just not understanding the "helping out fa" thing. I wish this was more clear and not so lbaswfgibefsnE you know?


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> If you're not an artist or if you're not someone who relies on commissions, then you're probably not going to see much point in any of this, because it doesn't affect you directly. At least, not right now.




I'd like to think that ad space being fed to third party website that redirect mobile browsing users to the google play/app store is going to be pretty obnoxious to consumers to start. So there's that.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> So far I heard of art stealing. In which if prepaid commissions are done, this shouldn't be a problem. But if some asshole decides to not make it, than I can see an issue.
> 
> Can someone explain to me the stresses of art stealing if that's the main problem?



The basic complaint is that users over there have been known to take art that they didn't draw/don't own, upload it as "items" (posters, pictures, idk what the deal is) that they can sell for in-game currency, which you can only get through purchasing from IMVU.
The argument is that IMVU indirectly benefits from art-theft and (my personal complaint) the burden of proof is on the artist themselves who want their art taken down, rather than the people who are selling the items.
Now, whether or not IMVU tolerates this is up for debate, but we're not pleased to know that they can indirectly benefit through USD purchases on products that they don't do prior checking on to see if the uploader is the actual artist. Some are complaining that IMVU apparently allows users to make derivitave works.

I hope this makes sense, I'm really tired atm


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'd like to think that ad space being fed to third party website that redirect mobile browsing users to the google play/app store is going to be pretty obnoxious to consumers to start. So there's that.



That much is true, but this hasn't happened... Yet. Until it does, people aren't likely to realize that there's anything happening, and Dragoneer / the FA staff / IMVU sure like to talk up how nothing ever will happen.


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> and Dragoneer



I wanna say that's not going to be the case if the IMVU bosses know what's good for em, if you know what I mean.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I'm afraid that would take a whole other thread to properly explain, but the basic gist of it in this context is:
> 
> -Artist makes art, posts it online. Might be personal, might be a commission, whatever, it's online.
> -Thief sees art, saves it and creates an item for sale in the shop at IMVU without notifying the artist or even giving them a namedrop
> ...



Do you think that the FA database could be used to prevent art stealing? 

I can see this:
- Artist posts artwork
- Artwork file gets tagged (creates a password entry for IMVU shop)
- Tagged file is downloaded by thief
- Thief tries to upload artwork
- upload gets rejected due to wrong password used

It's just an idea so far. Maybe it could get polished and put to good use


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm not much of an artist but i already branch out towards tumblr and Sofurry as my alt places. I recently left weasyl and Inkbunny this week.
All I can say is do a year review: see how things go for the year and see if things improve or get worst and weight it if its worth staying. We already know neer is just there to manage while his boss owns the site.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Do you think that the FA database could be used to prevent art stealing?
> 
> I can see this:
> - Artist posts artwork
> ...



Interesting idea, but how would that be implemented? Someone would have to figure out how to code that.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 21, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Interesting idea, but how would that be implemented? Someone would have to figure out how to code that.



Hold up! Hold up! It's just in idea phase. I'll think about it for a while.


----------



## miyevskr (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:
			
		

> Nothing I'm doing or what anybody else is doing here is ban-worthy. This thread has remained (surprisingly) civil and on-topic.
> 
> 
> Runefox said:
> ...



Given the circumstances there's only one person to blame if there's been any speculation, and it's not the person who ended up being banned. Because, seriously, two months is way long enough to have resolved any of the fundamental - and justifiably raised - issues that have cropped up here (notionally still a "discussion thread"?) and elsewhere.

Additionally, all the staff should have been on the same wavelength and answering questions, pointing in the correct direction, etc., as questions are raised, not just a single person flitting around everywhere trying to answer absolutely everything and making some absolutely horrendous goofs in the process (such as that privacy comment). That's simply not feasible in a community this size.

Sean/Dragoneer; before anyone else gets pointlessly banned, please get your act together even if that means having to lock everything down for while and doing what should have been done a month or two ago.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Hold up! Hold up! It's just in idea phase. I'll think about it for a while.



hahaha alright XD

It's just that I've studied both programming and databases (SQL server) and I'm trying to rack my brain over how you could implement a password into an image.

Perhaps with steganography, the practice of hiding text files inside image files.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Do you think that the FA database could be used to prevent art stealing?
> 
> I can see this:
> - Artist posts artwork
> ...



That would require a lot of cross-communication between IMVU and FurAffinity just to protect a small portion of the items on their store from being DMCA'd. Not to mention that IMVU doesn't even have a tagging system, so it's not even possible to do a keyword search to look for anything specific unless it's mentioned in the item description or title. Even basic things like "fox", "cat", "dog", "wolf", etc aren't useful search terms.

It's a lot of time and money to spend when FurAffinity is only owned by IMVU as (ostensibly) a place to show ads.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 21, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> hahaha alright XD
> 
> It's just that I've studied both programming and databases (SQL server) and I'm trying to rack my brain over how you could implement a password into an image.
> 
> Perhaps with steganography, the practice of hiding text files inside image files.


 True the only thing close is to have a system that recognizes images as already existing but that is already beaten my just simply changing the file type.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 21, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> True the only thing close is to have a system that recognizes images as already existing but that is already beaten my just simply changing the file type.



Not sure how that would work o3o sounds difficult. I mean for a system to determine if the image already exists elsewhere would be hard, unless the two databases were connected. In that case the first data base would have to have hash values stored for literally every image and the second database would have to generate a hash value for  the image that the theif is trying to upload, and then compare it to eeeeeevery hash value in database 1. It would have a lot of overhead and lag horribly.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

I think what could happen is anyone who uploads art on IMVU would have to link back to the source image (like on FA) with proof in the description along the lines of "this has been uploaded to IMVU".



miyevskr said:


> Given the circumstances there's only one person to blame if there's been any speculation, and it's not the person who ended up being banned. Because, seriously, two months is way long enough to have resolved any of the fundamental - and justifiably raised - issues that have cropped up here (notionally still a "discussion thread"?) and elsewhere.
> 
> Additionally, all the staff should have been on the same wavelength and answering questions, pointing in the correct direction, etc., as questions are raised, not just a single person flitting around everywhere trying to answer absolutely everything and making some absolutely horrendous goofs in the process (such as that privacy comment). That's simply not feasible in a community this size.
> 
> Sean/Dragoneer; before anyone else gets pointlessly banned, please get your act together even if that means having to lock everything down for while and doing what should have been done a month or two ago.



My comment was made prior to me noticing that Rowe was banned.
I agree, there should be more staff members answering questions. Was this sale or the changes discussed with the other mainsite staff, or no? Are they flying blind? All staff members should be up to speed and able to answer questions that they know the answer to, and for questions that they don't, they should be able to go to Dragoneer in confidence and get a good answer to reply here.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 21, 2015)

Runefox said:


> That would require a lot of cross-communication between IMVU and FurAffinity just to protect a small portion of the items on their store from being DMCA'd


. 

Who the hell cares?(I'm not pissed off, ok) 

Justice needs to be satisfied. Artists want their share and because it's their work, it needs to be given to them.



Runefox said:


> Not to mention that IMVU doesn't even have a tagging system, so it's not even possible to do a keyword search to look for anything specific unless it's mentioned in the item description or title. Even basic things like "fox", "cat", "dog", "wolf", etc aren't useful search terms.



That isn't what I meant by tagging. I meant sorta like how when money is stolen from a bank & it has that ink-thingy (I don't know the word for it) whereas ink is the tag.



Runefox said:


> It's a lot of time and money to spend when FurAffinity is only owned by IMVU as (ostensibly) a place to show ads.



I know. That's why it needs to be looked over & fixed. This is going to take a hella' lot of work to get done(if it even gets approved), so I guess this is the time to start asking for volunteers.


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## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

It's crazy how easily all of this could have been avoided if Dragoneer had been up front about things instead of making people prod him and do independent research. He should know by now what being vague does to his credibility... Part of me thinks he likes it when things like this happen.

Anyway, if they'd come out and said something like...

"We've been acquired by IMVU, it happened two months ago. The delay was because ____, and now that we're announcing it, we'd like to introduce you to what IMVU is, what they do, and why we want to work with them: (...). IMVU is the best fit for FurAffinity because ___________, and they will be providing us with financial stability and backend support. IMVU's intentions for FurAffinity are to keep things as they are, with the addition of additional ads to generate revenue. Many of you will be wondering about the future of FA, and while I am not at liberty to disclose specifics, I can tell you that even if I were to quit tomorrow or FA continues to lose money in the coming months, things will be running as they are now for the foreseeable future as part of our agreement. We will be working with the community to provide appropriate lead time on any modifications to our TOS, and we encourage your feedback if this arises. One of the major benefits to working with IMVU is that we have access to their upper staff, and this means that resolutions to any issues that arise across either site can be expedited as needed. Our administrative staff is ready to take your questions and concerns, and we look forward to continuing to work with the community to keep our bonds strong. To get things started, we've prepared an FAQ..."

... followed by actual answers to questions, I really don't think this would have been as big a deal as it is. Instead, we got fluff and filler and useless statistics and flip flopping and second-guessing and the whole rigamarole that we always go through whenever anything big happens at FA. Maybe Dragoneer should hire a real PR manager now that FA's a corporate asset and his job's on the line.


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## miyevskr (Mar 21, 2015)

Careful you don't get the job, Runefox: nice work, btw, given that timeframe. (The benefits of not having to simultaneously rush around everywhere, firefighting...?)


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## Runefox (Mar 21, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Who the hell cares?(I'm not pissed off, ok)


Well... IMVU cares. They're the ones who would have to pay for it, and they're traditionally a "lean" company - Least possible investment for a return is their philosophy. As far as justice goes, all they really want is to turn a profit, so as long as it's within the law, they don't mind one bit. The fact that the only way to get something removed is to file a legal action is proof enough of that.



> That isn't what I meant by tagging. I meant sorta like how when money is stolen from a bank & it has that ink-thingy (I don't know the word for it) whereas ink is the tag.


Ahh. Well, that's more difficult. You can't really do that, because you could get around it via a screenshot of the page and cropping the image out, or by resizing the image or doing any number of things to it. There is a solution for that right now called Digimarc, but it's not cheap, and it can be foiled with some editing if you're clever (it encodes some "noise" into the image that can contain copyright information; Saving it as a JPEG or resizing it can be enough to foil it).



miyevskr said:


> Careful you don't get the job, Runefox: nice work, btw, given that timeframe. (The benefits of not having to simultaneously rush around everywhere, firefighting...?)


Haaaa, yeah, I don't know if I'd wanna run PR for FA. I'm sure IMVU has guys for that.


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## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

General tips:
- Don't make promises you don't know you can keep or have already kept but haven't announced yet (i.e. rule changes, TOS changes, etc)
- Don't say things you can't prove
- Don't run away when you get criticised


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## Draconas (Mar 21, 2015)

https://vid.me/ysod video 100% relevant


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## Erethzium (Mar 21, 2015)

So, when is the new furry site going up? Gotta create a new furry site to flock to every time there's a big drama shitstorm.


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## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Erethzium said:


> So, when is the new furry site going up? Gotta create a new furry site to flock to every time there's a big drama shitstorm.



https://www.weasyl.com/


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 21, 2015)

Erethzium said:


> So, when is the new furry site going up? Gotta create a new furry site to flock to every time there's a big drama shitstorm.



Yes, yes, good, good, MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The issue with all other furry sites, people choose to go to which ever one they want, when this happens, since FA is mostly where the people are, people who rely on selling their art have to work on every site to take what they get here on FA. The "im leaving" journals do not hurt IMVU, FA... whatever, they hurt those who so rely on this place for their incomes. If IMVU changes this by restricting adult work in the future... well I dunno.



Volkodav said:


> https://www.weasyl.com/



HISSSSSSSSS xP


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## Erethzium (Mar 21, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> https://www.weasyl.com/


Nah, we already used that one for a different drama shitstorm a while ago.

We have to create a brand-new furry art site and all angrily flock to it in protest of some dumb drama on FA, only to realize that the site is crap because it has nowhere near the population that FA does, and promptly return a few weeks later.


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## Volkodav (Mar 21, 2015)

Can't help ya, bud.
If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, maybe you should go back to FA, idk.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

Erethzium said:


> Nah, we already used that one for a different drama shitstorm a while ago.
> 
> We have to create a brand-new furry art site and all angrily flock to it in protest of some dumb drama on FA, only to realize that the site is crap because it has nowhere near the population that FA does, and promptly return a few weeks later.



Weasyl's pretty damn awesome.  I use both it and FA. (Bi-siteual) You even get folders there and a rather cheery admin team. I feel so fancy and appreciated when I'm there and kinda sad when I return to the Walmart of Furries that is FA.


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 22, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Weasyl's pretty damn awesome.  I use both it and FA. (Bi-siteual) You even get folders there and a rather cheery admin team. I feel so fancy and appreciated when I'm there and kinda sad when I return to the Walmart of Furries that is FA.



I love FA, never got into Weasyl but I did try and go over to SF, dunno, its just empty elsewhere in my opinion.


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

Weasyl has a nice look and feel to me, but I haven't built up the same following as I have on FA. SHouldn't matter much to me tho, cuz it's not like I do commission.

I never could get into SF.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> I love FA, never got into Weasyl but I did try and go over to SF, dunno, its just empty elsewhere in my opinion.



Sofurry's nice enough...but it's rather sexual. So it's not exactly a general art lover's paradise. But it sure is Heaven for writers. (The only site I've never really looked into was Inkbunny...for obvious reasons.)


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 22, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Weasyl's pretty damn awesome.  I use both it and FA. (Bi-siteual) You even get folders there and a rather cheery admin team. I feel so fancy and appreciated when I'm there and kinda sad when I return to the Walmart of Furries that is FA.




Yeah, I'm just moving my situation to Weasyl now.  Weasyl is kinda just nice.  Even it's forums are nice.  Hell, I'm AFRAID to post on the forums half the time, less I needlessly jerk the place up.  It's THAT nice.  Though my commission postings do usually get more attention on FA.  But the only real thing to do is to move to Weasyl and put my interactions over there.  Build up a watch list and all that.

You guys can check out my custom furry arcade stick project exclusively on Weasyl. :3

https://forums.weasyl.com/vbulletin...shley-s-Custom-Furry-Arcade-Stick-Blog-Thread!


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## Croconaw (Mar 22, 2015)

A plant doesn't yield fruit in just a few days. Even then, Weasyl is starting to grow at a pretty comfortable pace. I haven't explored it enough, but it does seem like the activity has been picking up for some strange reason.


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## mcjoel (Mar 22, 2015)

I've had an account on weasly for awhile now so I can tell that they are getting quite a lot of people moving over though the forums over there a still pretty dead and will probably stay that way until the forums here start looking like the ones over there.


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## Draconas (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm finding a lot of shit the longer this skype call goes on with someone a few posts back, im not naming names, but if you look up their name on twitter, you'll see why this is making me rather *FUCKING UPSET* about the unfair treatment about this individual


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Sofurry's nice enough...but it's rather sexual. So it's not exactly a general art lover's paradise. But it sure is Heaven for writers. (The only site I've never really looked into was Inkbunny...for obvious reasons.)


Its why i avoid sofurry's forum and also chatroom. Also. Stay quiet as they enforce a "be nice or else" ruling...as long as someone claim you hurt them you can get banned...


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## Vo (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> hahaha alright XD
> 
> It's just that I've studied both programming and databases (SQL server) and I'm trying to rack my brain over how you could implement a password into an image.
> 
> Perhaps with steganography, the practice of hiding text files inside image files.



No, then someone would get wise to it and find how they store it. We'd need something that can be public, but can only be created using private information. So: 

1. Hash the image.
2. Pick a password.
3. Combine the image hash and password into a second hash.
4. Enter the password to authorize redistribution of the image.
5. Ship the image with that second hash. The password and the image's hash are combined again to find the second hash, which is then checked against a database.

Or, do we really need to hash the image alone? Maybe it's an unnecessary step. You could hash the image plus the password appended and store that hash in DB.

Or maybe more of a PKI thing. The image is associated with a public key. To reupload the image to IMVU, the uploader has to sign the image, proving their ownership of the secret key and their identity as the artist, and submit the signature. The signature is verified against the public key associated with the artist (which is in database). The images are hashed when uploaded to FA and these are used at IMVU to detect images that should require a signature. 

Now what would we do about people changing one pixel and altering the hash without compromising the image? Maybe we can take sections of the image data and hash them separately, and if the number of matching hashes crosses a certain threshold, a signature is required. 

Of course, resizing the image or altering it imperceptibly in various well-distributed spots, dunno, I guess that screws the whole hashing idea.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Its why i avoid sofurry's forum and also chatroom. Also. Stay quiet as they enforce a "be nice or else" ruling...as long as someone claim you hurt them you can get banned...



Oh, thanks for the head's up, Verin. I do sometimes find myself in it's writer's section, so I'll take your advice to heart. Sorta an easy system to abuse though.


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## Silvershock (Mar 22, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> I just vomited out of my nose. I'm not sure turning adblock off would even be noticeable.



AAAAAAAA KILL IT WITH FIRE!

I'm a fucking web dev, don't do that shit to me! It looks like Geocities and MySpace had an awful, unholy baby.


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## FoxWolfie (Mar 22, 2015)

Vo said:


> 1. Hash the image.



Anyone who can see the original image can screen capture it, save it to a different format, crop, resize or rotate, etc. Any of those actions would result in a different hash.  They only thing that an artist could do is to plaster big ugly watermarks over the main subject in the picture, or post it at such a low resolution that no one would want to use it or see it.  Unfortunately, that defeats the purpose for posting to an art site in the first place.

I think it would be far better if IMVU simply did as most art sites do, and come up with an internal take-down policy that doesn't require resorting to a DMCA order, so it works well from any country.  It seems that IMVU just doesn't want to spend their time or money on an admin responsible for dealing with copyright complaints.  Doing a DMCA should be a last resort, for when faster and more polite methods fail.  Unless they fix that, they are basically saying that they don't give a darn to the entire furry art community.  Since they indirectly make money on everything sold on their site, I highly doubt that they even want to give a darn.  Didn't they realize that they were buying an art site, and that art theft would be a very serious concern?

They must fix this to the satisfaction of the furry art community, or that same community will end up costing them more time and money than they ever dreamed of.  Honestly, the best move for IMVU would be to hand the site back, tear up the contract, and say "Sorry, we made a mistake." Then Dragoneer could take up one of those wonderful offers that would keep the site in the hands of furries who actually care.  I know, things like that never happen, but it would be much better for IMVU and much better for FA if they had nothing to do with each other.  No matter what they may think, IMVU of Borg will not succeed in assimilating the furry art community.


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## Silvershock (Mar 22, 2015)

Brass said:


> Can we please talk about what we do from here on out? How do we make the best of this situation?



I've been thinking about this during the day. I've already heard the "I'm going to build an alternative" thing from a number of people I know - yeah, good luck with that. By the time they have anything even approaching the complexity of the established websites, this will have died down or moved on to the point where their hobby coding project is no longer relevant. I got asked myself if I was going to work on an alternative site. Nope. I have my furry coding project, and I'm working on that for now.

What I _have_ been thinking about is potentially getting together all the people I know who were ready to put money into a pot and buy FA, and playing the long game. We can write our proposal up again, go over it, nitpick it to death. Then, we find out the people we'd need to send it to for it to get read and acknowledged. Finally, we make a dormant site with our proposal, intentions, rallying cry, etc written out in detail, and have it lie still until needed. There's been speculation in this thread that IMVU might dump FA at some point in the future. While that's early speculation, and we really have no way to know their intentions until they're demonstrated, if they did ever announce they were ditching the site, that would be the time to push the button and throw our proposal/campaign online. Getting the foot in the door quickly and having a single focus for the community in a situation like that would be beneficial, after all.

It's all I can really think to do, besides the ol' "let's all go to Weasyl/SoFurry/Inkbunny/VCL". We can't really do anything to change what's going to happen with the site now, not so long as it's under company rule, but having a contingency plan in case of massive fuck-up sounds do-able.


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## Captain Howdy (Mar 22, 2015)

As a person who only produces (kinky) written content, I have never understood SoFurry to be "for writers". Their general UI is awful for written content; unless you somehow find light grey/light brown text ON WHITE to be somehow easy to read. 

Weasyl is touted as yet another better-than-FA website - Yet I don't see where, why, or how. Written-submission pages look very similar to FA - Except the text is constricted into a mobile-friendly width (leaving extremely large empty gaps on either side of the content). And the search function is nearly identical, except 3 more results, and less organisation, but overall presented worse.

As far as FA/IMVU - I don't care, as long as my steady stream of porn comes in uninterrupted, and as long as I can put out my unsteady stream of written kinky stuff.


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

Vo said:


> No, then someone would get wise to it and find how they store it. We'd need something that can be public, but can only be created using private information. So:
> 
> 1. Hash the image.
> 2. Pick a password.
> ...



Ah, I was thinking of using hashing too. 
Question is, do any of the FA coders have the skill to even come remotely close to making a system like this XD


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## RedSavage (Mar 22, 2015)

Captain Howdy said:


> As a person who only produces (kinky) written content, I have never understood SoFurry to be "for writers". Their general UI is awful for written content; unless you somehow find light grey/light brown text ON WHITE to be somehow easy to read.
> 
> Weasyl is touted as yet another better-than-FA website - Yet I don't see where, why, or how. Written-submission pages look very similar to FA - Except the text is constricted into a mobile-friendly width (leaving extremely large empty gaps on either side of the content). And the search function is nearly identical, except 3 more results, and less organisation, but overall presented worse.
> 
> As far as FA/IMVU - I don't care, as long as my steady stream of porn comes in uninterrupted, and as long as I can put out my unsteady stream of written kinky stuff.



They've actually got a nifty feature where you can upload it to google docs and link it. It'll show it just as it appears in your document. Personally I've always a uploaded PDFS. Unlike FA, Weasyl will actually display a PDF instead of making you download it in your browser. 

To be fair pretty much all sites fucking suck when it comes to uploading text. There's no site that uses any type of WYSIWYG cut-and-paste. And for some reason uploading a .doc directly is beyond most web-dev's comprehension. Then again I'm guessing there's some vague compatibility reason for it.


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Question is, do any of the FA coders have the skill to even come remotely close to making a system like this XD



Better question: will FA's current coder even be willing to work with IMVU's coders?


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Captain Howdy said:


> As a person who only produces (kinky) written content, I have never understood SoFurry to be "for writers". Their general UI is awful for written content; unless you somehow find light grey/light brown text ON WHITE to be somehow easy to read.
> 
> Weasyl is touted as yet another better-than-FA website - Yet I don't see where, why, or how. Written-submission pages look very similar to FA - Except the text is constricted into a mobile-friendly width (leaving extremely large empty gaps on either side of the content). And the search function is nearly identical, except 3 more results, and less organisation, but overall presented worse.
> 
> As far as FA/IMVU - I don't care, as long as my steady stream of porn comes in uninterrupted, and as long as I can put out my unsteady stream of written kinky stuff.


its because SoFurry use to be YiffStar which was originally just writing, they then became SoFurry and still heavy on writing being the dominate thing (you are more likely to get someone to pay you to write them a story there than on FA...).
Oddly SoFurry was suppose to develop a system where you can change the colours but lately they been just CHURNING out updates that improve things for writers (or the chat room, or forums...specially for roleplaying as they added a "character" system)


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Better question: will FA's current coder even be willing to work with IMVU's coders?



Yea I hear talk that FA's coder ain't so friendly when others come pokin' around.


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## Calemeyr (Mar 22, 2015)

Wouldn't it have made more sense for FA to be sold to SL? Far more furries use that than IMVU...in fact, I wouldn't be suprised if SL is mostly furries these days. So what will happen to people posting custom SL work (stuff that is ok under TOS and copyright stuff with screenshots)? Because isn't SL a competitor to IMVU? I don't know.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> Wouldn't it have made more sense for FA to be sold to SL? Far more furries use that than IMVU...in fact, I wouldn't be suprised if SL is mostly furries these days. So what will happen to people posting custom SL work (stuff that is ok under TOS and copyright stuff with screenshots)? Because isn't SL a competitor to IMVU? I don't know.


LL doesnt need us for profit unlike IMVU that is in great need for it


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## TrishaCat (Mar 22, 2015)

Ironically enough I just heard about this while in the Weasyl Forums and was confused as heck and looking for answers as to what this all meant.

Thanks Runefox for explaining, well, everything throughout this entire thread from page one. This is awful for artists, IMVU very likely can start destroying the site in the future should they desire to do so for their own gain, and there likely could have been better places for the site to be owned by.

What a mess. I don't even make art very much but I'll likely quit the site should this actually result in terrible things. No use in supporting this nonsense.


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## chesse20 (Mar 22, 2015)

weasyl sucks their forum mods gave me a 5 point perma infraction for posting a go animate grounded video


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

I didn't know what that is so I googled it
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/grounded-videos
I'd infract you for that too, LOL


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

chesse20 said:


> weasyl sucks their forum mods gave me a 5 point perma infraction for posting a go animate grounded video


Most places these days would do that anyway, even facepunch would ban you for posting such a damn thing


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Apparently the IMVU mods are removing art over there? I'm not clearn on whether or not they removed it due to DMCA notices or if they're just cleaning up their shops or w.e but.. yeah. That's all I know from Weasyl.

Edit: False alarm. Looks like user was confused. Got my hopes up for NOTHIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Blitza (Mar 22, 2015)

The false Alarm whas me who didnt saw from one Moment to another Spazzys art there and after some time it whas again there, maybe an site bug or the user did reuploaded it or what ever.

I can see in the future FA will lose some great Artists since when you look what art is there in the IMVU shop you see they dont hold back to sell art from Chalo, spazzy and co.

Normal IMVU must Close there Shop, sort out all the stolen art and then we can talk about trust or working together. Aslong there IS stolen art i am fully against IMVU and so ist for the most Artists and Friends i know and have.

EDIT:I cut the text from his shout on my FA Journal so here it is:

DJKitsuFox
http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.....rs_id=13808370

 He's using alot of Michele Light work and claming it as his own! What a dick! 


Great were now IMVU T.T..............


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Ty anyways, Blitza. I don't have an account there so I can't see what's uploaded there or not. The more eyes on it the better, IMO


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## Tempest305 (Mar 22, 2015)

I have to see how this playes out before I mark my opinion.


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## Blitza (Mar 22, 2015)

I know FA and Neer made in the past alot failures, and the Trust whas nearly Zero but now i think they got too far over this.

If Neer would be more open and more tranparent to all what did happen, even he made some wrong maybe People would help him when he would not sell FA.
When he would be more trustfully and would Show exactly were the donations did go in FA with Bills etc maybe People would help FA again if he wouldnt sell it to the Devil itself...

This time he screwed really up and i am from the first hour on FA but that didnt never happen before such an "stupid" move sorry when i sayd more then i should.


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## Tempest305 (Mar 22, 2015)

How did he "mess up?"  people should keep an open mind no one knows if this is a good or bad thing.  Just wait and see before saying what was said.


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Well Dragoneer has fucked up like this _many_ times before so trust in him is basically 0% at his point. If Dragoneer would own up to the things he's said or done instead of denying that he said them or trying to bury it under the rug and call it "transparency", he would have gained a little bit of trust.. However, earlier when Dragoneer said he'd be trying a new "transparency" technique and explain things thoroughly, nobody believed him anyways. We learn that this sale of FA has been in the works since _last year_, that doesn't sound like #transparency to me...
He raised donation money to fix the site and then apparently gave it away to IMVU... #transparency??
He talks about the rules/changes/alterations to FA under IMVU's ruling and then immediately clams up, saying "it's an NDA"... #transparency? No

I don't blame Dragoneer for selling the site; I'm honestly surprised he's lasted this long owning FA. If I slipped up every time I talked the way he seems to be doing, I'd want to wash my hands of FA ASAP.

Whether IMVU's ownership will be a good thing or not, we don't know. Chances are we won't know until changes are forcibly put into place anyways under this "NDA". All I know is that this has turned many more people against FA and Neer if they haven't been thinking about it already. His comment about art theft was disgusting, and unfortunately isn't the first time.

If his PR guy bailed on him, he needs to straighten up and fly right and look for another or there's absolutely no hope for him.


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## Tempest305 (Mar 22, 2015)

True many people lost hope in him, if people want to abandon ship now that's their business. But I like the show myself


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## Blitza (Mar 22, 2015)

Tempest305 said:


> How did he "mess up?"  people should keep an open mind no one knows if this is a good or bad thing.  Just wait and see before saying what was said.



If you dont know the backstory and how Neer often fucked up, you should be silent and first read all and look what did happen.

No attack against you but People have "enought" from People who try to defend Neer. He made big Mistakes and thats it we cant Change it


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 22, 2015)

So, I hear talk some shit happened while I was at work, how interesting.


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## Blitza (Mar 22, 2015)

@Neer

Hey dont tell me you did sell the Site to IMVU even when someone still owns 50% of FA and didnt know your selling it ???

https://twitter.com/panderp/status/578647385976500224

If thats true you and the IMVU Team get really BIG Problems may i say....

Sorry thats more then an low Level if thats really true !!


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## Hermie (Mar 22, 2015)

Let's get one thing straight. Rowedahelicon wasn't banned for enticing drama. He was banned for *providing damning evidence against Dragoneer.*


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## RedSavage (Mar 22, 2015)

Tempest305 said:


> True many people lost hope in him, if people want to abandon ship now that's their business. But I like the show myself



So you didn't read the thread at all. 
Ok.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 22, 2015)

Hermie said:


> Let's get one thing straight. Rowedahelicon wasn't banned for enticing drama. He was banned for *providing damning evidence against Dragoneer.*


 You keep telling yourself that. Even if the latter was true, the former still applies, particularly in the way it was delivered.


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## RedSavage (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> You keep telling yourself that. Even if the latter was true, the former still applies, particularly in the way it was delivered.



See this is why people think you're Dragoneer's footstool.


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## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> You keep telling yourself that. Even if the latter was true, the former still applies, particularly in the way it was delivered.


What the fuck are you on about?


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## Runefox (Mar 22, 2015)

It's refreshing to wake up and see that nothing else is exploding yet. It gives me hope that maybe soon I can take a break from digging through this and sit back and watch the fireworks instead. People need to know when something's up, though, and in the interests of transparency, we need to be on our toes. Ferrox Art LLC may have been a company that's now acquired by IMVU, but its major asset, FurAffinity, is a community first and foremost. It's nobody's legal responsibility to keep us in the loop, but it's a social responsibility for sure, and I intend to make sure that the community that's fearful or interested in what's going on knows what's not being said by the flip-flopping and ineffectual Fender journals and fearless leader himself. Like I've said before, I don't use this site anymore personally, but many friends of mine do, and many of them also rely on the community for their income. Anything that impacts the community impacts them, and anything that impacts them impacts me.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 22, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> See this is why people think you're Dragoneer's footstool.



Perhaps if you showed some restraint, regardless of whether or not it was deserved, I might take you more seriously. But I'm no one's footstool, thank you.


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## Smelge (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Perhaps if you showed some restraint, regardless of whether or not it was deserved, I might take you more seriously. But I'm no one's footstool, thank you.



"Show some restraint" says the person who is known for blindly defending a certain person regardless of what terrible shit has been perpetrated this time.

What would your line be if people started commenting on other stuff? "Oh, he probably only murdered thirty hookers beause he loved them too much, it's not his fault that everyone makes a fuss about it. besides, they were only hookers, not like they mattered."


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## mcjoel (Mar 22, 2015)

Neers credibility is absolutely gone for me since rather then dispute the accusations and evidence i against him with evidence to the contrary he perma bans Rowe which does nothing but make this whole thing all the more sketchy.


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 22, 2015)

For those of us who followed FA's management history longer than you, Piche had no credibility in the first place!



Hermie said:


> Let's get one thing straight. Rowedahelicon wasn't banned for enticing drama. He was banned for *providing damning evidence against Dragoneer.*



Well, DUH. But here's the thing, I'd bet good Euromonies in Sean's head this genuinely equates to "enticing drama." After all the years of trickery to perpetuate his reign as Supreme Potentate of the Web's Largest Furry Community(TM) he began to believe his own lies and thinks offending him means offending the whole fandom.

It would fit right in the pathological profile of a (possibly bipolar) egomaniac.


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## RedSavage (Mar 22, 2015)

So wait. Who got permbanned for what now?



PheagleAdler said:


> Perhaps if you showed some restraint, regardless of whether or not it was deserved, I might take you more seriously. But I'm no one's footstool, thank you.



If you look in your commenting history, you repeatedly get accused of kissassing over and over. From when you defended his decision to make an ex-hacker a coder (See Gryphoneer's sig), to the shit-storm you got into in the Trouble Tickets thread, it always seems  your rising against any critical cause. You even question people's claim of "stolen" art (here) and you defend lackluster status quo of the website community (here) and then you even went so far as to defend FA's complete and utter lack of site update (here). 

On second thought, maybe you're not a Dragoneer kissass. You're an FA religious fanatic who can't even _bear_ the thought of your precious site befalling criticism. Look--if you love something, you should be hard on it. You should expect it to be better. You shouldn't defend its mediocrity when it could be more. That's true love for a website. Not repeatedly going out on a limb to defend or justify its mistakes.


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## RTDragon (Mar 22, 2015)

Considering i've been here since 2005 and from the history from here to now things have been going downhill from here. So things are most likely not going to be any better. To be honest compared to other art sites the furry fandom is considered a niche i can see why IMVU was interested in it. But still it's a niche site compared to actual art sites.


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## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 22, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Considering i've been here since 2005 and from the history from here to now things have been going downhill from here. So things are most likely not going to be any better. To be honest compared to other art sites the furry fandom is considered a niche i can see why IMVU was interested in it. But still it's a niche site compared to actual art sites.


Yeah, same. I'm 21 now. I joined this place when I was 13 or 14.

It sucks to see the site go down the tubes after I've been here for so many years.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 22, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> So wait. Who got permbanned for what now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am on my phone so pardon not erasing your gorgeous response to Dragoneer's alt account. Rowe was banned both here and on his main site account for calmly spreading information Piche did not want known. A permanent ban I might add.

No rules were broken except for the vague "inciting drama" tomfoolery only put in place and enforced when Piche is criticized, the coward.

I might also add that Dragoneer does not like Rowe personally so the ban was biased considering most people in this thread have been doing exactly the same as Rowe.


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## Lei-Lani (Mar 22, 2015)

Quoted from one of IMVU's moderators -* "I don't know what was promised, but some things in business cannot be  directed or shared with the user community as a whole.  A business is  not a democracy.  It is a hard truth, but we, no matter what site we  partake of, are not entitled to any decision-making what so ever.  If a  business allows us to contribute our ideas, or decides to share  privileged information with us... that's great - but not required."*

Yes. Thank you. That's really the whole ball of wax right there. IMVU is going to hide behind an NDA/NCNDA and not disclose any true nature of the agreement - if one was even written. So we know nothing, and the rumor mills, speculation, and conjecture will continue - until it's too late for us to do anything.

Fine. I see that "The New York Times", "USA Today" and "Billboard magazine" have accredited IMVU.

Let's see what they think about a mostly-teenage-driven online service buying a mostly-adult-nature online service. 

Get ready for a maaaajor parent uprising. ^^


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## RedSavage (Mar 22, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> I am on my phone so pardon not erasing your gorgeous response to Dragoneer's alt account. Rowe was banned both here and on his main site account for calmly spreading information Piche did not want known. A permanent ban I might add.
> No rules were broken except for the vague "inciting drama" tomfoolery only put in place and enforced when Piche is criticized, the coward.
> I might also add that Dragoneer does not like Rowe personally so the ban was biased considering most people in this thread have been doing exactly the same as Rowe.



Man I'm looking around and, if anything, I've been causing more of a ruckus than Rowedahelicon. You're right. That was a pretty biased and uncalled for ban. 

This whole, "My sandbox my rules" BS is getting old. This is a community of anthro-fans dedicated to its cause and quite frankly there's no room for petty pissmatches. "I don't like what you said so I'm going to ban you."

Ayy chingow. This shit is getting tiresome. I'm going to bed for the day. Good night all. Enjoy y'all's day. Night shift killed me and this BS was the nail in the coffin.


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 22, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> So wait. Who got permbanned for what now?



The given reason is _Account has been closed for disruptive commentary, posting  rumors-as-facts and attempting to intentionally spur further drama on  the site. _

Now, I don't really know how posting unshopped screencaps is "posting rumors as facts," but there ya go.


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## PastryOfApathy (Mar 22, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> The given reason is _Account has been closed for disruptive commentary, posting  rumors-as-facts and attempting to intentionally spur further drama on  the site. _
> 
> Now, I don't really know how posting unshopped screencaps is "posting rumors as facts," but there ya go.



#FreeRow


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## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 22, 2015)

Lei-Lani said:


> Quoted from one of IMVU's moderators -* "I don't know what was promised, but some things in business cannot be  directed or shared with the user community as a whole.  A business is  not a democracy.  It is a hard truth, but we, no matter what site we  partake of, are not entitled to any decision-making what so ever.  If a  business allows us to contribute our ideas, or decides to share  privileged information with us... that's great - but not required."*


"Even though we bought your site, we don't have to tell you shit. In fact, we're not even going to address the concerns that you have about the donation drive."

Whelp. I guess it's time to abandon ship.


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## Hermie (Mar 22, 2015)

I think there needs to be a criminal investigation into the donation drive.


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## Migoto Da (Mar 22, 2015)

Hermie said:


> I think there needs to be a criminal investigation into the donation drive.


I'm of the same opinion somewhat, but like, via _technicalities only_ there isn't really much we can do about it even if we managed to pool the resources together to even do such a thing.
While we have no proof that he spent it on the website, we also have no real proof that he didn't. I'm not playing benefit of the doubt guy here, just saying that if the answer isn't clear now, it probably never will be.


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## Runefox (Mar 22, 2015)

Migoto Da said:


> I'm of the same opinion somewhat, but like, via _technicalities only_ there isn't really much we can do about it even if we managed to pool the resources together to even do such a thing.
> While we have no proof that he spent it on the website, we also have no real proof that he didn't. I'm not playing benefit of the doubt guy here, just saying that if the answer isn't clear now, it probably never will be.



If there's one thing that Dragoneer and FurAffinity is really good at, it's not being open enough with the community for the community to know any specific details of what goes on with the site or the site's funding. There was a half-hearted effort back when the GoFundMe campaign was happening, but all we have is their word on what actually happened to the donations during the final round a few months back. Plus, we don't have any details on when the sale was first negotiated nor when it was actually finalized, so there's that, too. Hell, we didn't even know the site was sold until 3 days ago.


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## Accountability (Mar 22, 2015)

Here are some of our new Investor Overlords.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/vprr/09/9999999997-09-005438
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/vprr/05/9999999997-05-050230

Who wants to bet Dragoneer was dumb enough to sell the site without even asking for any equity in the company?


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## Migoto Da (Mar 22, 2015)

Runefox said:


> If there's one thing that Dragoneer and FurAffinity is really good at, it's not being open enough with the community for the community to know any specific details of what goes on with the site or the site's funding. There was a half-hearted effort back when the GoFundMe campaign was happening, but all we have is their word on what actually happened to the donations during the final round a few months back. Plus, we don't have any details on when the sale was first negotiated nor when it was actually finalized, so there's that, too. Hell, we didn't even know the site was sold until 3 days ago.


It's unfortunate that the mentality has always been 'Why would they be open if everything is just super shady anyway?'
 When people ask questions it causes problems. If you're in a position of power, you have the option of either addressing them (in a constructive manner, not by banning people) or running away from them/trying to hide them away. I think it's sad that the most common course of action is the latter.


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## Runefox (Mar 22, 2015)

Accountability said:


> Here are some of our new Investor Overlords.
> 
> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/vprr/09/9999999997-09-005438
> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/vprr/05/9999999997-05-050230
> ...



Careful you don't get banned for "doxing" them!

It's obvious that he didn't. As an employee, there's pretty much no chance he's got equity in them, and if he did, he'd have bragged about it by now.


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## Duality Jack (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Perhaps if you showed some restraint, regardless of whether or not it was deserved, I might take you more seriously. But I'm no one's footstool, thank you.


There is a line between observing facts and saying baseless insults. He did not cross that line.


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## aquavixen (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm probably getting either this post deleted or banned for "enciting drama" but for folks that don't know the past about dragoneer, go look up "Dragoneer" on encyclopedia dramatica. I know it's often viewed as "not facts" site but they have a lot of screenshots to back up what they claim. At one point in the past (more than 5 years ago) it was even dragoneer himself spending donation money from an FA donation drive on personal toys and a car.

And let's not forget the more recent donation drives.. I can't remember exactly, 2-3 years ago, the site supposedly "crashed and went offline" and then a "donation drive" appeared, and shortly after raising something like, I believe $25k in donation funds, the site magically appeared back online within 24 hours of the "donation drive" ending, and then despite all of that... the site's overall performance still has yet to improve to this date.

So to those of you that haven't been around long enough to remember..... there's info out there if you just go read about it.


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## Blitza (Mar 22, 2015)

aquavixen said:


> I'm probably getting either this post deleted or banned for "enciting drama" but for folks that don't know the past about dragoneer, go look up "Dragoneer" on encyclopedia dramatica. I know it's often viewed as "not facts" site but they have a lot of screenshots to back up what they claim. At one point in the past (more than 5 years ago) it was even dragoneer himself spending donation money from an FA donation drive on personal toys and a car.
> 
> "and for an 3D Print of himself XD"


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## Brass (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> So, I hear talk some shit happened while I was at work, how interesting.



Abohoho people are disagreeing with me and talking about things I don't like.


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## Delta (Mar 22, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> This whole, "My sandbox my rules" BS is getting old. This is a community of anthro-fans dedicated to its cause and quite frankly there's no room for petty pissmatches. "I don't like what you said so I'm going to ban you."



Ho' man this brings back so many memories. You have no idea how many people defended this idea when it didn't directly effect them.


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## Brass (Mar 22, 2015)

Delta said:


> Ho' man this brings back so many memories. You have no idea how many people defended this idea when it didn't directly effect them.



This has been a thing FA has been doing for ages. Dragon says something or does something stupid, and when it goes over poorly he gets his lackies to clean up his mess. Hell he likely doesn't even tell them to. They're well trained dogs and do it on their own. This isn't the first time this has happened but you shits won't ever jump ship until the site's truly dead and gone. The simplest solution to this shit is just to leave.


For anyone who wants some interesting information on him, you can check his ED page. It's archived somewhere.


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 22, 2015)

Probably will be banned for this, but meh.

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/FurAffinity

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Dragoneer (*WARNING: may contain NWS imagery and maybe, MAYBE rumors-as-fact*)


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> From when you defended his decision to make an ex-hacker a coder (See Gryphoneer's sig)



I haven't been around long enough to remember this so I want to ask one thing about this.
Was the guy a former White Hat hacker (a security professional legally hacking to perform audits), or a Black Hat hacker (some jack-off hacking people for personal gain)? If he was the latter, I'd also take issue with them being a coder, but if the former, well there's nothing wrong with that. But based off of how you speak of it, I'm guessing this guy was Black Hat.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> I haven't been around long enough to remember this so I want to ask one thing about this.
> Was the guy a former White Hat hacker (a security professional legally hacking to perform audits), or a Black Hat hacker (some jack-off hacking people for personal gain)? If he was the latter, I'd also take issue with them being a coder, but if the former, well there's nothing wrong with that. But based off of how you speak of it, I'm guessing this guy was Black Hat.



Black Hat. Destroyed sites when he didn't get his way. He gave every user mod powers and unbanned all banned users on one site.


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> I haven't been around long enough to remember this so I want to ask one thing about this.
> Was the guy a former White Hat hacker (a security professional legally hacking to perform audits), or a Black Hat hacker (some jack-off hacking people for personal gain)? If he was the latter, I'd also take issue with them being a coder, but if the former, well there's nothing wrong with that. But based off of how you speak of it, I'm guessing this guy was Black Hat.



Black hat.


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Black Hat. Destroyed sites when he didn't get his way. He gave every user mod powers and unbanned all banned users on one site.





Gryphoneer said:


> Black hat.



Ok then yea, I'm with everyone else when I say fuck that. Even if it's (typically) true that hackers make the best coders and programmers, I wouldn't trust a Black Hat any further than I could throw him.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 22, 2015)

The funny thing is that Zidonuke was on Twitter saying "if you value your privacy, leave FA now."


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> The funny thing is that Zidonuke was on Twitter saying "if you value your privacy, leave FA now."



Hence why it's a good idea to never give any website your real info unless you HAVE to (paypal for example).
And register with an email account you're never going to use.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Ok then yea, I'm with everyone else when I say fuck that. Even if it's (typically) true that hackers make the best coders and programmers, I wouldn't trust a Black Hat any further than I could throw him.



Which is basically what I was saying in Gryphoneer's signature. Did it make him more trustworthy? No. But did it make him more likely to be a good coder? Yes.



aquavixen said:


> I'm probably getting either this post deleted or banned for "enciting drama" but for folks that don't know the past about dragoneer, go look up "Dragoneer" on encyclopedia dramatica. I know it's often viewed as "not facts" site but they have a lot of screenshots to back up what they claim. At one point in the past (more than 5 years ago) it was even dragoneer himself spending donation money from an FA donation drive on personal toys and a car.
> 
> And let's not forget the more recent donation drives.. I can't remember exactly, 2-3 years ago, the site supposedly "crashed and went offline" and then a "donation drive" appeared, and shortly after raising something like, I believe $25k in donation funds, the site magically appeared back online within 24 hours of the "donation drive" ending, and then despite all of that... the site's overall performance still has yet to improve to this date.
> 
> So to those of you that haven't been around long enough to remember..... there's info out there if you just go read about it.



I wouldn't believe anything that site says, there's a reason it has drama in its name. The fact that they're negative on just about anything doesn't help their credibility (something which I'm sure they don't care about)




Gryphoneer said:


> The given reason is





Gryphoneer said:


> _Account has been closed for disruptive commentary, posting rumors-as-facts and attempting to intentionally spur further drama on the site. _
> 
> Now, I don't really know how posting unshopped screencaps is "posting rumors as facts," but there ya go.




Was this about that stupid Twitter screenshot? The one he took down almost immediately? Geez, it's not like he wanted to kill someone but changed his mind after he pulled the trigger.


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Which is basically what I was saying in Gryphoneer's signature. Did it make him more trustworthy? No. But did it make him more likely to be a good coder? Yes.



Being a good coder is a moot and invalid point if you can't be trusted. If I ran a website/network, no way in hell I'd hire a black hat hacker, even if he was the god of programming.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Being a good coder is a moot and invalid point if you can't be trusted. If I ran a website/network, no way in hell I'd hire a black hat hacker, even if he was the god of programming.



Kinda like how a master brain surgeon isn't worth much if they like to scramble patients brains from time to time.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Being a good coder is a moot and invalid point if you can't be trusted. If I ran a website/network, no way in hell I'd hire a black hat hacker, even if he was the god of programming.



Well yeah, I was agreeing with you.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Was this about that stupid Twitter screenshot? The one he took down almost immediately? Geez, it's not like he wanted to kill someone but changed his mind after he pulled the trigger.



I really hope it wasn't considering I posted the same thing.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Which is basically what I was saying in Gryphoneer's signature. Did it make him more trustworthy? No. But did it make him more likely to be a good coder? Yes.


No...you hire a white hat with a good rep...not a black hat that have a reputation to include backdoors, abuse the system (folks remember when they showed that FA does have a system that you can make journals NOT be able to have comments...wonder if they still have that system...) a history of doing the SAME thing to each project they have been part of.

Good coder? Well duh they are a Black Hat...
Just mean if they feel like it...they could easily ruin FA cause they can keep holes in the system for them to use to further damage FA even if we remove em...


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 22, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> No...you hire a white hat with a good rep...not a black hat



Ooh that's racist.

On a serious note, how do we hire a reliable white hat for a reasonable price? How much money would IMVU lose to make this happen & while it's happening?

Come on team, we can do it!


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> No...you hire a white hat with a good rep...not a black hat that have a reputation to include backdoors, abuse the system (folks remember when they showed that FA does have a system that you can make journals NOT be able to have comments...wonder if they still have that system...) a history of doing the SAME thing to each project they have been part of.
> 
> Good coder? Well duh they are a Black Hat...
> Just mean if they feel like it...they could easily ruin FA cause they can keep holes in the system for them to use to further damage FA even if we remove em...




Is this person still the present day coder or has this all washed over already?



-Sliqq- said:


> Ooh that's racist.
> 
> On a serious note, how do we hire a reliable white hat for a reasonable  price? How much money would IMVU lose to make this happen & while  it's happening?
> 
> Come on team, we can do it!



Penetration testers usually command very high salaries. My security instructor at ITT Tech said White Hat hackers can easily make 100k+ annually.
If you want someone like that working for you then prepare to pay them well XD


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Id rather work on the alberta oilsands than have to stare at the shit dug up by hacking into FA
more pay and less emotionally traumatizing


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Id rather work on the alberta oilsands than have to stare at the shit dug up by hacking into FA
> more pay and less emotionally traumatizing



Not to mention that the only way to fix FA is to redo the entire thing from the ground up, and good luck with that. I mean I think that was supposed to be happening already, but hell, nothing's happened.


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Nah
IMVU is slapping ads on and running far away from what i can tell
Maybe some patches here and there but no ground up coding


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## Brass (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> I haven't been around long enough to remember this so I want to ask one thing about this.
> Was the guy a former White Hat hacker (a security professional legally hacking to perform audits), or a Black Hat hacker (some jack-off hacking people for personal gain)? If he was the latter, I'd also take issue with them being a coder, but if the former, well there's nothing wrong with that. But based off of how you speak of it, I'm guessing this guy was Black Hat.



I don't like that hat bullshit but No. He was not. In fact I don't think there was much legal with anything he did.



PheagleAdler said:


> Which is basically what I was saying in Gryphoneer's signature. Did it make him more trustworthy? No. But did it make him more likely to be a good coder? Yes.



No it doesn't. Social engineering does not make a good coder. Just a good con man. But hey I won't stop you from talking about shit you know nothing about.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Is this person still the present day coder or has this all washed over already?


they were fired shortly after in an official Fender journal they disabled comments. They tried to use the reason for doing that of "comments was slowing down the site"


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Not to mention that the only way to fix FA is to redo the entire thing from the ground up, and good luck with that. I mean I think that was supposed to be happening already, but hell, nothing's happened.



Which FA could do...but from what i saw of sofurry when they did their code update is that you have to take down the site for a time. Sofurry can cause their userbase is smaller and more understanding...FA cant...
Folks would bitch if its a one day down time especially if its a weekend as many artist work more and more likely to get commissions then.


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11285567#11285567

This is really stupid.
Hahaha, buy an upgraded account so you can file a DMCA, fuckwads!!!!!


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## Randy-Darkshade (Mar 22, 2015)

So, I have just been linked two sets of screenshots, one stating that IMVU does have the right to redistribute art from FA as agreed in the "terms of sale" and another screenshot where Dragoneer seems to have signed the sale agreement without reading it. 

I want to know if either the above are true.


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## CaptainCool (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11285567#11285567
> 
> This is really stupid.
> Hahaha, buy an upgraded account so you can file a DMCA, fuckwads!!!!!



And the whole "there are 16 million items in the store" thing sounds more like "we didn't care in the past, we certainly won't start caring now."


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

o m g f Randy!!!! I was thinking about you the other day
I hope that's not creepy as shit.



Randy-Darkshade said:


> So, I have just been linked two sets of screenshots, one stating that IMVU does have the right to redistribute art from FA as agreed in the "terms of sale" and another screenshot where Dragoneer seems to have signed the sale agreement without reading it.
> 
> I want to know if either the above are true.


Nothing has been stated word-for-word as it is in the "NDA" so we'll never know. Sometimes we hear "they won't take your shit", other times we hear "they can take your shit to post in ads", and other times we hear "they won't take your shit but if your shit is in one of their ads, they can take it"
Now if you want your shit taken down from IMVU, first you have to upgrade your account to an 18+ one so you can _see_ any submissions there, and then go through the process of mailing DMCAs to get your art taken down.
It's not looking good for artists either way


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Now if you want your shit taken down from IMVU, first you have to upgrade your account to an 18+ one so you can _see_ any submissions there, and then go through the process of mailing DMCAs to get your art taken down.
> It's not looking good for artists either way



Any? Or just the porn? (Just trying to get a clear understanding)


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 22, 2015)

Randy-Darkshade said:


> So, I have just been linked two sets of screenshots, one stating that IMVU does have the right to redistribute art from FA as agreed in the "terms of sale" and another screenshot where Dragoneer seems to have signed the sale agreement without reading it.
> 
> I want to know if either the above are true.


Well since neer has done nothing to dispute these and IMUV is hiding behind a NDA (none disclosure agreement) I'm inclined to believe the posts until proven otherwise.


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Any? Or just the porn? (Just trying to get a clear understanding)


You can create an account for free to see the items and then file a DMCA, but to see 18+ images you need to buy an 18+ account upgrade and then file a DMCA.
A lot of the submissions are 18+ furry porn images as "wall posters" or whatever, but I'm sure there are a shitload of stolen furry images in the general item catalog.
(Since when the fuck would Blotch use IMVU, lol)



mcjoel said:


> Well since neer has done nothing to dispute these and IMUV is hiding behind a NDA (none disclosure agreement) I'm inclined to believe the posts until proven otherwise.


It's stupid to take anything he says at face value at this point.



What's making me laugh is that IMVU doesn't want to touch FA/FAF with a 50 foot pole, despite being more than welcome to buy the fucking site. You don't have to "know the userbase" to come in and answer some questions.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Note, IMVU does do email for DMCA. Just the fact it goes straight to a level of legal action to remove stuff...which the user may still get nothing at them...


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Note, IMVU does do email for DMCA. Just the fact it goes straight to a level of legal action to remove stuff...which the user may still get nothing at them...



It's really nice to know that they value integrity and respect the valuable time of artists who depend on commissions for an income. 

:V


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Literally any other fucking site doesn't require you to file a DMCA. If you can prove that you own an image that someone else uploaded (say you have the original PSD files, the original resolution, can point out a hidden watermark, can show that it was uploaded to your account before they uploaded it to theirs), and you or message this proof to them, the site will take it down.
I don't understand why IMVU doesn't get with the fucking times, it would make it 10x easier.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Literally any other fucking site doesn't require you to file a DMCA. If you can prove that you own an image that someone else uploaded (say you have the original PSD files, the original resolution, can point out a hidden watermark, can show that it was uploaded to your account before they uploaded it to theirs), and you or message this proof to them, the site will take it down.
> I don't understand why IMVU doesn't get with the fucking times, it would make it 10x easier.


Even SL is easier to remove stuff with their takedown system. Also you don't need to pay for an account level to access mature and adult stuff on SL...just be 18+


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Also you don't need to pay for an account level to access mature and adult stuff on SL...just be 18+


"Regarding AP content, as pointed out earlier we obviously can not simply open up that section to all users, however, we are working with Dragoneer to figure out a way to address that issue."

This is what they said. There's no solution to this unless you know someone who knows someone with an 18+ account, and how would you even go about checking if art is stolen? You gonna hire someone to poke through 16 million images?


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> You gonna hire someone to poke through 16 million images?



Of course not. I'm sure you can code something; that changes the original file in some way that's only available via Furaffinity, then as the art is displayed it shows the "tagged file" instead of the original. If a person tries to steal it & upload the tagged file, the upload gets rejected.

Now as for screenshotting the art, I'm not too sure yet. Those would probably need to be checked manually. I have to think of a solution to this one.

Knowing that there's a directory that was exposed many times, that file might need a separate tagging, then [the original] get deleted.

Shit, this is going to be tougher than I thought


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> "Regarding AP content, as pointed out earlier we obviously can not simply open up that section to all users, however, we are working with Dragoneer to figure out a way to address that issue."
> 
> This is what they said. There's no solution to this unless you know someone who knows someone with an 18+ account, and how would you even go about checking if art is stolen? You gonna hire someone to poke through 16 million images?


its actually possible...
Its often a pain but its possible to have someone who can fully access FA's site, knownlegable of artist to go thru those images via a use of a bot...
Just like how on SL we have a bot problem of bots whom main purpose is to snag things via copybot...
But its still a pain cause IMVU isnt properly tagged on things
Like you can hide the furry image from a bot by just not using furry in the title...like how on FA i can hide my renamon chars by not ever stating renamon anywhere, thus the search system dont find my renamon. So the bot would have to go thru each and every single submission


----------



## TrishaCat (Mar 22, 2015)

So if there's an issue of art theft how will that change or increase any now that IMVU owns FA? If IMVU's store had art theft on it beforehand and getting such stolen art taken down was difficult then, how would IMVU owning FA change things and make things worse?


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 22, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Which is basically what I was saying in Gryphoneer's signature. Did it make him more trustworthy? No. But did it make him more likely to be a good coder? Yes.



Bull. Shit. 

A good hacker has actual software engineering skills and can code a tailored trojan over a weekend.

Being an opportunistic hothead who worms his way into projects and switches some permissions like a fucking script-kiddie as part of his inevitable rage-quit doesn't translate at all to any notable programming skill.

You're talking out your ass.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 22, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> You're talking out your ass.



You must speak like an ass, to sound like you're talking like one


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

If there were tagging done on original images on FA's side, that wouldn't get rid of existing stolen images on IMVU, it would only affect images in the future.
I don't know how this new ownership will change art-theft over there but I doubt it will slow down.

*@Pheagle:* Having a history of hacking sites maliciously makes you a bad choice for a coder


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 22, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Bull. Shit.
> 
> A good hacker has actual software engineering skills and can code a tailored trojan over a weekend.
> 
> ...



Yea you got a point.

If someone's immature enough to hack a site out of spite/anger, they're probably using pre-made tools.

So I'll change my statement to say SKILLED hackers make good coders. Script-kiddies do not.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Battlechili1 said:


> So if there's an issue of art theft how will that change or increase any now that IMVU owns FA? If IMVU's store had art theft on it beforehand and getting such stolen art taken down was difficult then, how would IMVU owning FA change things and make things worse?



Nothing much...but...
As a friend point out, IMVU's option to go straight to legal action with DMCA being the only way to remove stolen work could be a scare tactic used in reverse.
I mean how many folks we heard actually use DMCA actually go to court?
Look at the users now...some of them are annoyed they have to treaten legal action which also show many of em rather not as there are things at risk for them. Not to mention some are not in the US so they already feel defeated...
BUT we are having users point out its not so hard to file a DMCA...so what if hundreds upon hundreds of artist start flooding em with DMCAs?
Friend say they would have to action to take those items down, even change how they do things on their userbase so they dont actually deal with constant DMCAs about art...


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

It _is_ a scare tactic. They don't want to go through the work of taking down art manually so they make artists do the legwork and hope the task of filing a DMCA is enough of a discouragement.
Seen it before, seen it happen many times.

(I've also heard that simply filing a DMCA through email is considered false-filing, but I can't say whether or not that's true)


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

And a very effective for them. Just if you remove and inform folks correctly...it becomes a double edge sword.
The chaos side of me deep down hope someone kick start a movement to make folks calm down and be able to tell folks to proceed to DMCA IMVU for images sold there with the help of some users who have AP to provide links to the images hidden behind that paywall.


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## mcjoel (Mar 22, 2015)

Here are a few websites woth some information about filing a dmca. 
https://nppa.org/page/5617
https://www.dmca.com/FAQ/How-can-I-file-a-DMCA-Takedown-Notice


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## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 22, 2015)

So basically this has dwindled down to the art theft portion of IMVU yes? This, to me seems to be everyone concern.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> So basically this has dwindled down to the art theft portion of IMVU yes? This, to me seems to be everyone concern.



Better to break things down and tackle at a time as they come. Also new question...who will be managing ads for the users here...IMVU or still FA as im sure revenue from us is no longer neer's problem yes?


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

The main concerns seem to be art theft, possible rule changes regarding adult content/"adult language", malware ads, and thousands of missing donation dollars.


----------



## StarrySpelunker (Mar 22, 2015)

Honestly If IMVU was smart they'd implement a commission marketplace on FA. 

Ex. take a 5-7% cut in either USD or a specialized currency thus allowing greater leeway for mature art and allow conversion back to USD to your bank/credit card.

That way, they could promote FA above their competition(sofurry and Weasyl and in part, deviantart) as having a marketplace_ and_ cut Furbuy and Paypal out of the equation

Plus this would tie into an expanded ad system, paid ads show up on the page boundaries and show up as the default start search on the marketplace.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 22, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> So basically this has dwindled down to the art theft portion of IMVU yes? This, to me seems to be everyone concern.


My biggest concern is the $10,000+ in donations that are now unaccounted for.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

StarrySpelunker said:


> Honestly If IMVU was smart they'd implement a commission marketplace on FA.
> 
> Ex. take a 5-7% cut in either USD or a specialized currency thus allowing greater leeway for mature art and allow conversion back to USD to your bank/credit card.
> 
> ...



....sofurry has a marketplace....
Heck their marketplace also have a request area where users can post request and state the money range they are willing spend..
And unless IMVU could bypass paypal it will be on them to assist with taxes (yea i have seen artist actually do their taxes as paypal checks if the person makes a certain amount of money a year which if they cross said line and the person lives in the us they will inform and also provide the info needed to file the taxes)


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 22, 2015)

StarrySpelunker said:


> Honestly If IMVU was smart they'd implement a commission marketplace on FA.



>.< Oh, I wouldn't trust a site like FA (with its history of outages and hiring black hat hackers) with such a thing. Especially not if i had to link my personal information.


----------



## Hermie (Mar 22, 2015)

Also, it may have been illegal for 'Neer to wait two months to tell us about the sale. Users MUST be notified of changes to Terms of Service. The question is whether or not the change in ownership means the ToS was changed. I'm pretty sure that does count as a change, because it changes who you are making the agreement with. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...anging-terms-of-service-without-notification/


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## TheArchiver (Mar 22, 2015)

From offsite



akitary said:


> I went as far as giving permanent discounts for people who follow me from FA. I - who is on a verge of starving from time to time - given up percentage of my income for that.
> 
> 
> As much as I'm panicking about loosing my commissioners and audience and get a severe cut in my income - I really want Weasyl to become the #1 Furry hub. It's well written, nice to look at, easy to use, and so far I only heard good about the staff. If I could do my online furry life and my business here, I would be really satisfied.
> ...



Quite sad.


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Hermie, I think that's for companies like internet providers and such


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Did anyone else get a pm from an IMVU user providing a template to use for DMCA IMVU simple? I plan to post it once home from work


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

No, I didn't. On the mainsite or the forums? What username?


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## Verin Asper (Mar 22, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> No, I didn't. On the mainsite or the forums? What username?


on the forums, user name is Fleshy


			
				Fleshy said:
			
		

> Hey there! I'm an IMVU user and wanted to give you guys the same form I use for DMCA's. If done correctly, it should work without any problems, even if you are a non-US citizen. I have this posted in a few art groups on IMVU, to make it easy for others to get stolen content removed (products, textures, homepage layouts, display pictures, etc). I can't post it on the IMVU forums because of the rule about legal discussion, and I was gonna post it on the FA forums, but I haven't received a confirmation email yet. e.e
> 
> This form is almost identical to the one provided by IMVU (I simply broke it down and explained the different parts for you all). You can find the original one here: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/info/takedownnoticehtm.htm
> 
> ...



one thing that bothered me is IMVU having a stance of no talking of legal things, but hey, if this template help the users that are ON that site, then if we spread about this template to others to make it rather easy then it can calm users down.
the only thing is for the adult stuff hidden behind the paywal


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## Filter (Mar 22, 2015)

Nothing against IMVU, as they offer stability and a place like this has lots of untapped potential, but I won't be surprised if something like the SheezyArt mass exodus happens when they crack down on the adult stuff. The two main questions on my mind are when will this happen, and what will replace that aspect of FA?


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## Volkodav (Mar 22, 2015)

Awesome, thank you for that, Verin and Fleshy
I'm a little put off by "no legal discussion" on the forums as well. What if someone wants advice on how to file a DMCA???


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 22, 2015)

I don't really care what happens as long as we can still do everything we could before art-wise.


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Fleshy, I'm unable to reply to your message because your inbox is full:

"Fleshy has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 23, 2015)

Game over. If this isn't damning as to what happened with the GoFundMe stuff, I don't know what is. At the very least it's highly suspect. At the most it's pretty much evidence.

*EDIT* Tweet was not deleted. Miscommunication on that end.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Fleshy, I'm unable to reply to your message because your inbox is full:
> 
> "Fleshy has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."


wow did they really pm that many folks?


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Migoto Da said:


> Game over. If this isn't damning as to what happened with the GoFundMe stuff, I don't know what is. At the very least it's highly suspect. At the most it's pretty much evidence.
> 
> The fact that the tweet was also deleted is pretty much, well. I dunno. Could be nothing, could be something, which it probably is. I'll let you guys have at it.



Can you link to some of the tweets that replied to it, for verification? Text is very easily altered.



Verin Asper said:


> wow did they really pm that many folks?



Nah, it's got to do with new users and being unable to send/receive more than one message.


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 23, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Can you link to some of the tweets that replied to it, for verification? Text is very easily altered.







No text altered; tweet however was not deleted, which was a miscommunication. This implies either one of three things. 
Either A: This is a very poorly worded statement that just makes 'Neer look bad but has no real damning indication.
B: It implies that the GoFundMe money was used as part of the deal with IMVU in some fashion
C: 'Neer outright used a combination of the GoFundMe money + the IMVU deal to pay off personal depts. All three are bad, but one is not like the other here.

Unfortunately a twitter post is just a twitter post. It's by no means 100% critical. However, the way it's worded and the way the conversation at hand was had, seems as though we /are/ right about the money disappearing into the abyss at the very least.


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Source: https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/579722925680492544
This isn't proof of any sneaky things done with the donation money, but it does raise questions when you consider he did admit he simply gave it to IMVU :S
All I've seen so far is just that, straight from the horse's mouth.


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 23, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Source: https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/579722925680492544
> This isn't proof of any sneaky things done with the donation money, but it does raise questions when you consider he did admit he simply gave it to IMVU :S
> All I've seen so far is just that, straight from the horse's mouth.


So the real question is: What did IMVU do with the money, when it was clearly given to 'Neer in hopes of reparations for the site? Is IMVU going to be using to money to renovate the site around, or was it more of an incentive to buy it? 
The entire thing is very shady. Shaky ground at best.

At the end of the day, all of these questions would have been answered (for better or for worse) if 'Neer would actually be upfront and honest about everything for once. This all just needs major clarification, even if it's just on IMVU's part since 'Neer will probably remain silent.


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm still trying to figure out why a massive company like IMVU would need extra donation money to fix a site they just bought.


----------



## Migoto Da (Mar 23, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why a massive company like IMVU would need extra donation money to fix a site they just bought.


Beats me. And unfortunately that's only a question that they can answ--
Oh. Wait. That's right. NDA.

This entire situation is shady. There's no proof, but the smell is in the air, yes?


----------



## Accountability (Mar 23, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why a massive company like IMVU would need extra donation money to fix a site they just bought.



The donation drive happened in late October. The sale was supposedly being discussed in December. I don't think IMVU "need[ed the] donation money" as much as Dragoneer may have been less than honest about his intentions for the use of said money (e.g. sitting on it to inflate FA's balance sheet to make it more appealing to anyone who wanted to buy it or using it to pay off the mystery debts, which he claimed it was going to be used for before Chase said it was not.)


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Accountability said:


> The donation drive happened in late October. The sale was supposedly being discussed in December. I don't think IMVU "need[ed the] donation money" as much as Dragoneer may have been less than honest about his intentions for the use of said money (e.g. sitting on it to inflate FA's balance sheet to make it more appealing to anyone who wanted to buy it.)



The donation drive happened in late October, but I'm hearing the discussions/negotiations for the sale happened months before that.
Though your theory may be correct.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

How could Dragoneer sell us to a site that STEALS our art?


Original submission:


http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7250797/


And how they sell it in their damned store:


http://es.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=16211166


Original submission:


https://www.furaffinity.net/view/10900794/


And how they BLANTANTLY removed the watermark and sell it in their damned store:


http://es.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=22067666


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

It's just rampant:
www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=47678253


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## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

note again
"such a thing existed well before the buy"
Just what happened now
"Congrats, your buy now alerted this userbase to all the stole art your site has"
and before folks usually go 
"well SL have stolen art so its no different"
SL allows a TAKE DOWN system where you dont need to GO STRAIGHT TO LEGAL ACTION
nor
need to pay them to view adult items

Thanks to fleshy an IMVU user we do have a template that can be use by our userbase to in a sense...send a hell of a wave of DMCA's towards IMVU. We just need help again from users willing to in a sense risk their accounts that have AP to provide links to images behind that wall.


----------



## FoxWolfie (Mar 23, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Thanks to fleshy an IMVU user we do have a template that can be use by our userbase to in a sense...send a hell of a wave of DMCA's towards IMVU.



I can see one thing that is bad about needing to resort to the DMCA approach.  Artists need to use their real name.  Some artists don't want their adult art connected with their real name.  If IMVU had a take down system, like most art sites, real names wouldn't be needed.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 23, 2015)

Okay, if we're gonna hang on to this bullshit, I never fucking said he was a good choice for a coder, okay? He certainly wouldn't have been my first choice.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 23, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> note again
> "such a thing existed well before the buy"
> Just what happened now
> "Congrats, your buy now alerted this userbase to all the stole art your site has"
> ...



The "other sites do it too!!1" defense is such Bullshit logical fallacy apologia, it's not even funny. That doesn't change jackshit about the fact they _sell stolen goods_ on their site that were _stolen by their users_!

And those other sites do not _own _FA! The implications are mindboggling. Even if IMVU plans to address these concerns in a timely and firm manner, they still did NOT act in good faith; they disrupted the site's business environment. A large percentage of the userbase, high-profile artists or otherwise, generate a substantial part of their income through FA, and IMVU as well as Piche suspended business dealings indefinitely as long as artists and clients are uncertain about the site's future due to their intransparent backroom deals. That's not how you run a web community, much less any kind of commercial enterprise!


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 23, 2015)

I feel this needs to be pointed out because some people aren't getting it: if you are leaving because of the art theft that has recently come to light, you don't have a reason. This is not new, it is something that has gone on without being noticed for at least a few years. And let's be honest, there's probably other sites out there, that you'll never even see, that have probably stolen a decent amount of content.

Yes, I think you should file a DMCA notice for any of your work you find has been stolen, but pick another reason to leave the site, whether it be how it is run, other details regarding the sale to IMVU, etc.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 23, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> This is the question that has been answered the least throughout this entire thread, despite being asked the most. I find it very telling that the staff hasn't answered this question yet. They are literally avoiding the question that involves stealing from the community.
> 
> IMVU is going to poison our community's view about them by being so quiet on the matter.
> 
> ...



Except for the part where it was one of the first questions answered, actually. He said several times that the donation drive was in October and the talks to sell began late December. So basically there were no talks, just a spur of the moment sale. Or something like that.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 23, 2015)

Jesus please stop. You're shilling out for a corporation that certainly doesn't deserve your defense 

They already have a legal team


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 23, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I feel this needs to be pointed out because some people aren't getting it: if you are leaving because of the art theft that has recently come to light, you don't have a reason. This is not new, it is something that has gone on without being noticed for at least a few years. And let's be honest, there's probably other sites out there, that you'll never even see, that have probably stolen a decent amount of content.
> 
> Yes, I think you should file a DMCA notice for any of your work you find has been stolen, but pick another reason to leave the site, whether it be how it is run, other details regarding the sale to IMVU, etc.



Does it not occur to you that people can be put off on mere principal? The site was sold to a shady organization that 1) does not care that art is stolen on the regular 2) the site makes it as much a hassle as possible to remove stolen content. 
This is reason enough to be put off. And before you pull the "well DevianArt does it too..." or whoever does the same thing, there's a difference between signing up for shady website and being absorbed into one without your knowledge.
People can pick any reason they want to jump ship. Believe me, FA provides a near infinite amount. This one is just as relevant. Please go back to polishing that shiny white armor of yours.

And we weren't born yesterday. If we talked about leaving the site for how it's run, you'd condemn and damage control that too.



Gryphoneer said:


> And those other sites do not _own _FA! The implications are mindboggling. Even if IMVU plans to address these concerns in a timely and firm manner, they still did NOT act in good faith; they disrupted the site's business environment. A large percentage of the userbase, high-profile artists or otherwise, generate a substantial part of their income through FA, and IMVU as well as Piche suspended business dealings indefinitely as long as artists and clients are uncertain about the site's future due to their intransparent backroom deals. That's not how you run a web community, much less any kind of commercial enterprise!



Gracious me, Pheagle. I hope you have Gryphoneer blocked at least because the fact that you spouted such ridiculous nonsense immediately after this was posted does not help quell the claims of you being a brown noser/Dragoneer alt.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Dude phil it's not just the art theft while that is a major reason it was just the final straw for people.
I would list off the other problems but there is not enough time in the world to do so.


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 23, 2015)

The possibility of getting your art stolen was always there


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 23, 2015)

Real as glad that transparency report put our fears to rest!


----------



## Xipoid (Mar 23, 2015)

Jashwa said:


> Lol. The best decisions.



I have my champagne


----------



## ADF (Mar 23, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I feel this needs to be pointed out because some people aren't getting it: if you are leaving because of the art theft that has recently come to light, you don't have a reason. This is not new, it is something that has gone on without being noticed for at least a few years. And let's be honest, there's probably other sites out there, that you'll never even see, that have probably stolen a decent amount of content.
> 
> Yes, I think you should file a DMCA notice for any of your work you find has been stolen, but pick another reason to leave the site, whether it be how it is run, other details regarding the sale to IMVU, etc.



I haven't been taking part in this discussion, just occasionally peering in, but I don't like this argument.

The difference is the theft is no longer this external entity that FA has no control over, it's now FA's owner that is relaxed in squashing art theft and is profiting from the sale of stolen work. Surely you can understand why artists would take issue with that? Short of a major clamp down on art theft on their part, people are given little reason to have faith their property will be respected.

If you were a movie producer, you wouldn't be happy to hear the piratebay has bought your publisher.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 23, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> My biggest concern is the $10,000+ in donations that are now unaccounted for.


Assume they were pocketed.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> Assume they were pocketed.



Well according to neer that money is now in the hands of IMUV's financial department. 
I may have not donated but I'm sure that the people who did donated the money to be used for FA and solely FA.


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 23, 2015)

Migoto Da said:


> Game over. If this isn't damning as to what happened with the GoFundMe stuff, I don't know what is. At the very least it's highly suspect. At the most it's pretty much evidence.
> 
> *EDIT* Tweet was not deleted. Miscommunication on that end.


Heeeyy it's Kazee! I know that guy <3


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 23, 2015)

(Recent shouts)

Operation: Ostrich is in full effect. Don't expect any more answers to be forthcoming at this point (as if the complete lack of responses for the last 20 pages or so wasn't a hint). I guess the choice is suck it and up and see what happens, or get out.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> (Recent shouts)
> 
> Operation: Ostrich is in full effect. Don't expect any more answers to be forthcoming at this point (as if the complete lack of responses for the last 20 pages or so wasn't a hint). I guess the choice is suck it and up and see what happens, or get out.



Basically he's saying that he just wants everyone to forget about it and give it a rest lol. Cuz that solves everything. Just wait a few weeks and it'll magically fix itself.


----------



## Hermie (Mar 23, 2015)

I vote to shun Sean from the furry fandom for life.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Hermie said:


> I vote to shun Sean from the furry fandom for life.



Careful, talk like that can get you banhammered for lief cuz you're enciting drama 8U


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> (Recent shouts)
> 
> Operation: Ostrich is in full effect. Don't expect any more answers to be forthcoming at this point (as if the complete lack of responses for the last 20 pages or so wasn't a hint). I guess the choice is suck it and up and see what happens, or get out.



So I have a question.

*Is there anybody here, anyone at all who still doubts that Piche in fact does not care about this entire situation?
*Because this is the second time he's made a callous jab towards the outraged, disappointed, and fearful community openly.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> So I have a question.
> 
> *Is there anybody here, anyone at all who still doubts that Piche in fact does not care about this entire situation?
> *Because this is the second time he's made a callous jab towards the outraged, disappointed, and fearful community openly.



He doesn't own the place anymore, why would he care?


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


>



"Pshaw, silly ingrates! _I know_ how it goes, first they a makin' big noises, but they always come crawling back. Always! Just needa sit this one out, it will all blow over."

*opens beer can, takes a swig and commissions Digimon porn*


----------



## Blitza (Mar 23, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> He doesn't own the place anymore, why would he care?



Question is did he ever cared before ?? Think about it


----------



## Blitza (Mar 23, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> "Pshaw, silly ingrates! _I know_ how it goes, first they a makin' big noises, but they always come crawling back. Always! Just needa sit this one out, it will all blow over."
> 
> *opens beer can, takes a swig and commissions Digimon porn*



we have an winner were the donation Money did run, maybe not all but who knows it really. Somehow his porn, 3D Print and more must be payd and with Money Problems is that all not so easy ^^


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Blitza said:


> Question is did he ever cared before ?? Think about it



Probably not as much as he wants us to believe.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> "Pshaw, silly ingrates! _I know_ how it goes, first they a makin' big noises, but they always come crawling back. Always! Just needa sit this one out, it will all blow over."
> 
> *opens beer can, takes a swig and *gets free* Digimon porn*


Fixed that for ya :V


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 23, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> Fixed that for ya :V



Meh, he's not Big Boss de Fur anymore, why would peeps still suck up to him? Cost-benefit ratio has shifted.

(Though Pheagle doesn't seem to have received the memo yet.)


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Meh, he's not Big Boss de Fur anymore, why would peeps still suck up to him? Cost-benefit ratio has shifted.
> 
> (*Though Pheagle doesn't seem to have received the memo yet*.)



Oh snap, you tell 'em XD


----------



## Blitza (Mar 23, 2015)

I wonder if anybody is coming at FAU, maybe Greeting Neer really hard and nice


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Blitza said:


> I wonder if anybody is coming at FAU, maybe Greeting Neer really hard and nice



I highly doubt there is ever going to be another one of them and if so fender and neer is going to look like a nascar drivers.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> (Recent shouts)



You know what? This is a giant middle finger to everybody who has had concerns about this whole thing. I really wish karma were a thing at this point because Princess Piche is playing with people's livelihoods and laughing about it, and this pisses me the hell off.

Let's not let this blow over. Let's not let him feel that sense of smug security. Let's really turn the screws here, and keep this fire burning. Because this is the man who sold the community out from under itself, and this is the man who claims to care about it. This is his idea of caring. He's a nobody now, and that will become obvious very soon if things continue as they are, but he still needs to take responsibility for his actions and this is the kind of shit that tells me that he thinks he never will.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> You know what? This is a giant middle finger to everybody who has had concerns about this whole thing. I really wish karma were a thing at this point because Princess Piche is playing with people's livelihoods and laughing about it, and this pisses me the hell off.
> 
> Let's not let this blow over. Let's not let him feel that sense of smug security. Let's really turn the screws here, and keep this fire burning. Because this is the man who sold the community out from under itself, and this is the man who claims to care about it. This is his idea of caring. He's a nobody now, and that will become obvious very soon if things continue as they are, but he still needs to take responsibility for his actions and this is the kind of shit that tells me that he thinks he never will.



Of course cause his livelihood now depends on how content he can keep us...
By having a boss(especially one that promoted "cutting out the fat") hes being watched and kept under review. If he does a poor job it will be on him and his team...
Yea the rest of the admin team are also gonna be looked at.


----------



## Lei-Lani (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> You know what? This is a giant middle finger to everybody who has had concerns about this whole thing. I really wish karma were a thing at this point because Princess Piche is playing with people's livelihoods and laughing about it, and this pisses me the hell off.
> 
> Let's not let this blow over. Let's not let him feel that sense of smug security. Let's really turn the screws here, and keep this fire burning. Because this is the man who sold the community out from under itself, and this is the man who claims to care about it. This is his idea of caring. He's a nobody now, and that will become obvious very soon if things continue as they are, but he still needs to take responsibility for his actions and this is the kind of shit that tells me that he thinks he never will.



This isn't really a 'big announcement". This is history here. FurAffinity has been bought out by another company. That's not really something you "announce"; it's something you write a full proposal about, and then hand to your users, outlining the strategies, changes, agreements, etc. So WHAT if we don't pay a dime to use this site?

Without us, FurAffinity doesn't exist. *Period*. I'd say that makes us all perfectly capable of receiving FULL transparency of this venture.

No, I don't see this just "going away" until we get that.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> (Recent shouts)
> 
> Operation: Ostrich is in full effect. Don't expect any more answers to be forthcoming at this point (as if the complete lack of responses for the last 20 pages or so wasn't a hint). I guess the choice is suck it and up and see what happens, or get out.


You know what would help smooth things out? If they actually answered our perfectly valid (and still unanswered) questions.

It's really telling that the company that now owns these forums won't come here to answer our questions. They bought our site, but they don't want anything to do with us.



Runefox said:


> You know what? This is a giant middle finger to everybody who has had concerns about this whole thing. I really wish karma were a thing at this point because Princess Piche is playing with people's livelihoods and laughing about it, and this pisses me the hell off.


'Guys! Guys! Guys! Please! Put down your pitchforks. You have nothing to worry about.

Of course, I'm not going to provide any answers or evidence so you can put your minds to rest. Just trust me. Look at how well it worked before!'


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

Dragoneer, since yesterday, has his little army of idiots mocking people with authentic and legitimate concerns with catchphrases such as "relax, so much furry drama" and the like.

Edit:

Also I want to raise awareness once again on the solid evidence we havof FA's art being stolen by Imvu:


Original submission:


http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7250797/


And how they sell it in their damned store:


http://es.imvu.com/shop/product.php?...ts_id=16211166


Original submission:


https://www.furaffinity.net/view/10900794/


And how they BLANTANTLY removed the watermark and sell it in their damned store:


http://es.imvu.com/shop/product.php?...ts_id=22067666


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> You know what? This is a giant middle finger to everybody who has had concerns about this whole thing. I really wish karma were a thing at this point because Princess Piche is playing with people's livelihoods and laughing about it, and this pisses me the hell off.
> 
> Let's not let this blow over. Let's not let him feel that sense of smug security. Let's really turn the screws here, and keep this fire burning. Because this is the man who sold the community out from under itself, and this is the man who claims to care about it. This is his idea of caring. He's a nobody now, and that will become obvious very soon if things continue as they are, but he still needs to take responsibility for his actions and this is the kind of shit that tells me that he thinks he never will.



Couldn't have said it better myself. This is his cop-out to get out of the line of fire. Oh how he's mistaken.
I hope IMVU disposes of him and gives us someone competent, caring, and most of all, ACCOUNTABLE.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Dragoneer, since yesterday, has his little army of idiots mocking people with authentic and legitimate concerns with catchphrases such as "relax, so much furry drama" and the like.


The unfortunate part of this is that there are a lot of people of neutral opinion who just don't care because either they legitimately see this as just more furry drama or they're trying to focus on keeping their business afloat and don't have time to care about this kind of thing. The problem with that though is that when the changes start to come down the pipeline, they're the ones who are going to be impacted the most as they're not paying attention and probably haven't been branching out to pad the blow.

As for the rest of your post, it should be made clear that IMVU themselves aren't doing this, but their users are. The problem though is that while IMVU isn't harvesting furry art to sell, they *are* the only ones making any money out of it, and the only way to have it taken down is by threatening legal action, which users of IMVU have come forward to say takes quite a while, and probably isn't going to be very reliable for artists outside the US. All that fails to take into account the fact that IMVU outright refuses to do anything to allow artists to browse the adult (or "AP") section of their site, which requires paying a fee to even access, which in turn means that it's impossible for an artist to know if their work has been stolen or not.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> You know what? This is a giant middle finger to everybody who has had concerns about this whole thing. I really wish karma were a thing at this point because Princess Piche is playing with people's livelihoods and laughing about it, and this pisses me the hell off.Let's not let this blow over. Let's not let him feel that sense of smug security. Let's really turn the screws here, and keep this fire burning. Because this is the man who sold the community out from under itself, and this is the man who claims to care about it. This is his idea of caring. He's a nobody now, and that will become obvious very soon if things continue as they are, but he still needs to take responsibility for his actions and this is the kind of shit that tells me that he thinks he never will.









Well said well said


----------



## LizardKing (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> the only way to have it taken down is by threatening legal action, which users of IMVU have come forward to say takes quite a while, and probably isn't going to be very reliable for artists outside the US.



Relevant xkcd (tooltip). It would be _literally illegal_ for them to put in any less effort. That's how much they care. And they now own FA.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

Exactly Runefox, and the worst part is that not everyone can do a DMCA. One needs 3 things to do ot successfully: have legal assistance (that has a cost), living in the USA (because living outside only makes it much more harder) and be willing to waste a lot of time and effort.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Exactly Runefox, and the worst part is that not everyone can do a DMCA. One needs 3 things to do ot successfully: have legal assistance (that has a cost), living in the USA (because living outside only makes it much more harder) and be willing to waste a lot of time and effort.



What? You don't need a lawyer to file a DMCA, and there is no cost associated with it.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> What? You don't need a lawyer to file a DMCA, and there is no cost associated with it.



Filling a form is free, but it does not work like magic, it is just the beggining of a process.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Exactly Runefox, and the worst part is that not everyone can do a DMCA. One needs 3 things to do ot successfully: have legal assistance (that has a cost), living in the USA (because living outside only makes it much more harder) and be willing to waste a lot of time and effort.



So there pretty won this Thing then ??? Thanks Neer you saved us !! Oh wait nah you selled us to the Devil !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> (Recent shouts)



So since FA is a business and now owned by a non-furry corp...I gotta say this kinda thing is crappy customer service. 

 Was any other American reminded of this commercial?


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> So since FA is a business and now owned by a non-furry corp...I gotta say this kinda thing is crappy customer service.
> 
> Was any other American reminded of this commercial?


Isn't that the way FAs always been so now its going to be 100x worse :c


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> So since FA is a business and now owned by a non-furry corp...I gotta say this kinda thing is crappy customer service.



From all I've been able to gather about IMVU, the same can be said of our new Bratz-styled overlords.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Filling a form is free, but it does not work like magic, it is just the beggining of a process.



But that doesn't mean you need a lawyer. I've used DMCA requests in the past when people uploaded my work and claimed it as their own and the piece in particular was removed within days. If you needed to spend money on a lawyer then nobody would bother with DMCA.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> Isn't that the way FAs always been so now its going to be 100x worse :c



I'm feeling ballsy today, so here's my no fucks opinion. It's quite clear Dragoneer is not really devoted to anyone but himself. He laughs off concerns, makes a mockery of security issues, and considers his opinion as the only one of any value. The only thing you can say he ever did right was somehow keep the site up. Which ANYONE could do with a userbase this niche. Why he even wants to run FA still is a mystery to me. It's not a passion for him and if he felt responsible for it, he would left the big boy jobs to someone who is actually qualified. 

He's just a total embarrassment to this entire fandom. I was gonna get my best friend to join so she could take advantage of the art scene...but after I told her of this situation she's steering clear. Great job, Neer. 

And I still think banning that one guy was the essence of pettiness. If my words sting, try imagining this situation from our side, fella.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

What Dragoneer says v.s. evidence, all in a single image:

http://postimg.org/image/hs96ugrg7/


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> If my words sting, try imagining this situation from our side, fella.



I think Dragoneer honestly thought that this was going to go over well and was surprised at the reaction. After all, there's furries on IMVU, and now FurAffinity no longer needs to run on donations! And most importantly, he gets to keep his nominal position as king of the furries. What's not to love?


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I think Dragoneer honestly thought that this was going to go over well and was surprised at the reaction. After all, there's furries on IMVU, and now FurAffinity no longer needs to run on donations! And most importantly, he gets to keep his nominal position as king of the furries. What's not to love?



Wow. This is like a twilight zone episode. You're the optimist today and I'm the pessimist. XD


----------



## Accountability (Mar 23, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> So I have a question.
> 
> *Is there anybody here, anyone at all who still doubts that Piche in fact does not care about this entire situation?
> *Because this is the second time he's made a callous jab towards the outraged, disappointed, and fearful community openly.



Oh, he cares. Clearly he cares. Cares about making sure to suck the dick of his new corporate overlords. IMVU is perfect and great and you should be honored that they're profiting off of your stolen art, because that shows how much they care about (profiting off) furries. Now go away and look at your porn and stop worrying!!



Zepher_Tensho said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself. This is his cop-out to get out of the line of fire. Oh how he's mistaken.
> I hope IMVU disposes of him and gives us someone competent, caring, and most of all, ACCOUNTABLE.



I hope IMVU disposes of him and replaces him with someone just as bad, if not worse. The schadenfreude will be off the charts. He'll finally fall from the little perch he built himself, fading into irrelevance as "the guy that sold out FurAffinity"

"My name is Dragoneer, king of furs:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Wow. This is like a twilight zone episode. You're the optimist today and I'm the pessimist. XD


Well hey, I didn't say he had _good intentions_. I'm just saying he thinks we're as dumb as... Well, I won't go calling people names, but you can imagine who I mean.


----------



## aquavixen (Mar 23, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> (Recent shouts)
> 
> Operation: Ostrich is in full effect. Don't expect any more answers to be forthcoming at this point (as if the complete lack of responses for the last 20 pages or so wasn't a hint). I guess the choice is suck it and up and see what happens, or get out.



Some of you on here may remember a few years ago when FA was hacked by someone on LULZ and all of the private messages ("NOTES") were downloaded and then dumped to the public.

Well right around that time, Dragoneer, himself, and the entire admin staff (At the time.. they might be the same folks today? I don't know), went around and mass ban-hammered anyone and everyone that mentioned or discussed it in public.

Anyone that made a journal or forum thread about it got banned, sent a warning message, and their post(s) deleted.

In fact, they all did such a very good job of "brushing it under the rug" that almost all folks new to the site within the past 2 years, don't even know it ever happened.

I'm not "enciting drama" with this post, I'm just telling the public about facts that happened in the past.

The information about this is out there, it's on the Encyclopedia Dramatica page, and folks can search for "FA Leaks" in google, there's an entire website set up with a search engine and still archives all the notes.

So yes, I'll probably get banned and this post deleted but I'm just stating facts that happened in the past.

Since they did such a great job at hiding the last event... I would imagine that fairly soon this entire forum thread will end up locked, and then deleted, and all information and questions and concerns in here will magically "disappear" and the site will continue business as usual as if none of this ever happened.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

so all it is right now is the waiting game...
right now nothing much have happened, we have seen some updates (the notes but I dunno if thats due to IMVU or our own coding team)
....
man remember when Neer showed off that you can input images in journals....


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Im just going to link this journal people are sharinghttp://www.furaffinity.net/user/toxicpup/


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 23, 2015)

Tbh, no matter what happens the art theft is still going to happen.
Maybe I'm not skilled enough of an artist to be worried I guess.


----------



## TheGreatCrusader (Mar 23, 2015)

We are totally fucked. It's too late to do anything about this now. All of the papers have already been signed.

This is irreversible, no matter how much we don't like it.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

I suggest we do 10k worth of meth with our new bratz oberlords


----------



## CaptainCool (Mar 23, 2015)

TheGreatCrusader said:


> We are totally fucked. It's too late to do anything about this now. All of the papers have already been signed.
> 
> This is irreversible, no matter how much we don't like it.



You know... Right now I see mostly nerd rage. People don't like change, especially on the internet.
Why not just wait what actually happens?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Popped through furry art in general level store
most is falvie, botch, wolfynail,some othrr one i recognize
18+ is probably a goldmine


----------



## aquavixen (Mar 23, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> You know... Right now I see mostly nerd rage. People don't like change, especially on the internet.
> Why not just wait what actually happens?



We've already waited. We're already being ignored in all of our concerns and questions are going unanswered. And the art theft is already happening (has been before the sale but now it's a lot more common than before). The waiting is over, it's happened and now we have to try to figure out how to deal with the consequences. The problem is all the users are in the dark and no one has any concrete information as to what's going on, which is the biggest problem with the big confusion and mass hysteria.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Ill come up with list later of art sources
whatever happens, do not file dmca for art that isnt yours. Its a legal procedure thst rarely gets past "take this down or else", it isn't just fancy text


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Somebody deserves a medal for this shit right here 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRsPE1BbB8


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 23, 2015)

aquavixen said:


> Some of you on here may remember a few years ago when FA was hacked by someone on LULZ and all of the private messages ("NOTES") were downloaded and then dumped to the public.
> 
> Well right around that time, Dragoneer, himself, and the entire admin staff (At the time.. they might be the same folks today? I don't know), went around and mass ban-hammered anyone and everyone that mentioned or discussed it in public.
> 
> ...



That's fine. 
My print screen key works.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Users should not be getting banned on here prior to receiving warnings for their behaviour.. or is the infraction system only used when people feel like it?
Clear my infractions pls


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> Somebody deserves a medal for this shit right here
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRsPE1BbB8


...
can we not have this posted 5 times?


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 23, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> ...
> can we not have this posted 5 times?



Did somebody already post it?


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

I wonder how awkward it could be to try and copyright furry porn.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> I wonder how awkward it could be to try and copyright furry porn.



Within any nation that is a signatory of the Berne Convention, any creative work is immediately protected by copyright to the creator upon creation.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> Within any nation that is a signatory of the Berne Convention, any creative work is immediately protected by copyright to the creator upon creation.



You still got to prove you made it, and in IMVU's case it has to be in the form of a DMCA which I'm pretty sure requires copyright protection or something similar. Plus this isn't Youtube so you can't just whine to Google and make it go away.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> You still got to prove you made it, and in IMVU's case it has to be in the form of a DMCA which I'm pretty sure requires copyright protection or something similar. Plus this isn't Youtube so you can't just whine to Google and make it go away.



Yes, you would, you would have to prove in court that you created the work originally but in the vast majority of cases, proving ownership would not be difficult.  In addition to this, it's unlikely that IMVU would ever contest ownership, they'd attempt to contest liability, assuming they didn't cave to the initial DMCA notice that is.  But any work would be legally protected by copyright without registration, of course, registration can certainly help, but really only a concern if you fear that someone may attempt to claim ownership from you and you'd be in a weak position.  (Like if you've NEVER released your creative work.  Maybe you worked on the greatest novel ever in secret, it's finished, and someone stole the manuscript and intended to publish it on their own).  But something you published to the internet with a long history of being published by you, no problem.

Also, if IMVU ever contested a DMCA claim it would go public fast and FA would BURN.  Like, ALL the artists would collectively bail at that point.


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 23, 2015)

I feel like people leaving would hurt the artist more than anything if they don't have a big following on another site.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

FenrirDarkWolf said:


> I feel like people leaving would hurt the artist more than anything if they don't have a big following on another site.



The people who pay for commissions are really important! The artists wanna go where they are, but the odd thing is that the commissioners go where the art/artists are. All it would take is a significant enough push to get everyone over to another new art site. 

Last year, almost half the artists left because of Zaush's admin status. Will IMVU's terrible handling of art left be FA's undoing? It's up to the artists and the consumers to decide.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

This is likely why there seems to be a complete lack of concern on both Neer and IMVU's side regarding art theft..
More blank promises? :/
---------------
(Screencap of message I received)




---------------
Links:
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=531598&start=105
http://prntscr.com/6kb4q3


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> The people who pay for commissions are really important! The artists wanna go where they are, but the odd thing is that the commissioners go where the art/artists are. All it would take is a significant enough push to get everyone over to another new art site.
> 
> Last year, almost half the artists left because of Zaush's admin status. Will IMVU's terrible handling of art left be FA's undoing? It's up to the artists and the consumers to decide.



Honestly the FA "brand" is still strong enough to maintain a large chunk of the furry "market". It would take IMVU banning porn/fetish shit or royally fucking people who rely on commissions for their to be any major switch.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Honestly the FA "brand" is still strong enough to maintain a large chunk of the furry "market". It would take IMVU banning porn/fetish shit or royally fucking people who rely on commissions for their to be any major switch.



1. Merge w/ largest/most popular furry art
2. Allow art theft to run rampant with false promises
3. Make money off of stolen art from most popular furry artists
4. Own the site most popular furry artists stay on. Don't like it, leave, bitches
It's a conspiracy


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Honestly the FA "brand" is still strong enough to maintain a large chunk of the furry "market". It would take IMVU banning porn/fetish shit or royally fucking people who rely on commissions for their to be any major switch.



That's a pity. I watch a ton of people on Weasyl and it's attracted some really awesome artists (my fiance refuses to use FA). This "brand" power is one of the silliest things I've seen people let inconvenience the community. Why deal with Neer and IMVU? If you're an uber popufur, just use your influence for a migration...then you can have folders and a nice staff. 

Or you could stick with FA and all it's stress. It's easy as pie.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> That's a pity. I watch a ton of people on Weasyl and it's attracted some really awesome artists (my fiance refuses to use FA). This "brand" power is one of the silliest things I've seen people let inconvenience the community. Why deal with Neer and IMVU? If you're an uber popufur, just use your influence for a migration...then you can have folders and a nice staff.
> 
> Or you could stick with FA and all it's stress. It's easy as pie.



It's easier to stay and not ruin a good thing than switch a different site and risk losing all your viewers because they don't want to juggle multiple sites.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

man this is an awesome quote


> This. IMVU did not steal your artwork. a low-life person did. Blaming IMVU is a bit like going to a store, and getting mugged in the parking lot then blaming the store saying they mugged you.
> 
> There are thieves here, yes. But that is true of anywhere. The majority of creators are good people.
> 
> And IMVU does not hate the furry fandom. Most IMVU users do not hate the furry fandom (that I have seen).




YOU CAN though get angry at the store for having shoddy security, heck you can get the store in trouble when its revealed it doesnt have security camera's in place that works (my job got in trouble for having a camera not being functional when a customer got mugged in our parking lot).

IMVU users did admit that their catty works on a community system where the submission is reviewed before being allowed on the system...


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> It's easier to stay and not ruin a good thing than switch a different site and risk losing all your viewers because they don't want to juggle multiple sites.



 They wouldn't have to juggle if they would just get the hell out of dodge. I know it's easier said than done though. But this Offsite agoraphobia just makes me shake my head more often than not. Also, its kinda clever to not put all your eggs in one (falling apart) basket.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> They wouldn't have to juggle if they would just get the hell out of dodge. I know it's easier said than done though. But this Offsite agoraphobia just makes me shake my head more often than not. Also, its kinda clever to not put all your eggs in one (falling apart) basket.



It's like every other revolution (for lack of a better term, you know what I mean), everyone wants a change but no one wants to take the first step. So we all spend 10 years bitching about how much we hate this place and wishing everyone would switch, but stay here anyways because we want to wait for the other guy to do it because they don't want to risk anything.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> I wonder how awkward it could be to try and copyright furry porn.



That's why Imvu will never loose. From all the stolen art, only a very few people will have the disposition to fight for his/her rights on adult art. Because let's face it, 70% of furry art is of adult nature.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> It's like every other revolution (for lack of a better term, you know what I mean), everyone wants a change but no one wants to take the first step. So we all spend 10 years bitching about how much we hate this place and wishing everyone would switch, but stay here anyways because we want to wait for the other guy to do it because they don't want to risk anything.



https://status.weasyl.com/munin/weasyl.com/web1.i.weasyl.com/weasyl_active_sessions_1h.html

The numbers would show that Weasyl's usage has actually jumped significantly since this IMVU went down.

Weasyl: The only furry site not afraid to share it's usage statistics and in detail even!


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## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> That's why Imvu will never loose. From all the stolen art, only a very few people will have the disposition to fight for his/her rights on adult art. Because let's face it, 70% of furry art is of adult nature.



Also the fact that you have to pay IMVU to actually see it which kinda defeats the entire purpose anyways.



AshleyAshes said:


> https://status.weasyl.com/munin/weasyl.com/web1.i.weasyl.com/weasyl_active_sessions_1h.html
> 
> The numbers would show that Weasyl's usage has actually jumped significantly since this IMVU went down.
> 
> Weasyl: The only furry site not afraid to share it's usage statistics and in detail even!



The real test is if it stays that way. This isn't the first time there's been some kind of exodus over some dumb drama (i.e. A person of interest secretly hiring back a certain individual who may or may not love dogs too much), but this is first time that I can remember where something this major and actually important happened.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 23, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> The real test is if it stays that way. This isn't the first time there's been some kind of exodus over some dumb drama (i.e. A person of interest secretly hiring back a certain an individual who may or may not love dogs too much), but this is first time that I can remember where something this major and actually important happened.



Historically speaking, Weasyl has seen a large spike with each major fuckup carried out by FA.  Hiring a rapist, hiring a hacker and now this.  While there was a reduction after each spike, the 'norm' was noticeably higher after than it was before.  Basically, FA has been largely responsible for long term gains in Weasyl.


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## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

I think it's relevant to post this here. It's a collection of screenshots, 32 screenshots that show massive and systematic art theft:

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16084611/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16084611/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16084611/


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 23, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> [...]Hiring a rapist[...]



The fuck?


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## PastryOfApathy (Mar 23, 2015)

As a precautionary measure, let's avoid getting too detailed about any particular incidents involving FA staff. Not because I'm defending them but just so Dragoneer doesn't have an excuse to lock the thread (although he didn't bother making an excuse when he banned Row so who knows).


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## Terror-Run (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> I think it's relevant to post this here. It's a collection of screenshots, 32 screenshots that show massive and systematic art theft:
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16084611/
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16084611/
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16084611/



Neato, now people don't need to pay the site to actually look for art theft -_- 
just spread the link around because I feel the submission will be gone pretty soon. (it is also breaking the regular ToS afterall)


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> The fuck?



Allegedly. (We have to say that or down goes the thread)


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## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

Terror-Run said:


> Neato, now people don't need to pay the site to actually look for art theft -_-
> just spread the link around because I feel the submission will be gone pretty soon. (it is also breaking the regular ToS afterall)



Even if they ban the submission in FA, they can't do anything at imgur:

http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI


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## sethtriggs (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> They wouldn't have to juggle if they would just get the hell out of dodge. I know it's easier said than done though. But this Offsite agoraphobia just makes me shake my head more often than not. Also, its kinda clever to not put all your eggs in one (falling apart) basket.



I've been on Weasyl for a couple years. I get maybe 1/8 the views I do on FA. Just think of how I would be reeling if I actually relied on commissions as an income.

All of the people in this thread, angry that Dragoneer didn't take the offer from the people who say they have development talent...why aren't you marshaling those people to write something that imports submissions through a browser (like the Waxpost Crossposter that I use for Weasyl)? I guess I'm kinda feeling like an opportunity is being missed. If you do hate what's happened here, and you are writing off the site, act. The thread is over 30 pages now, and I think I fully understand everything sucks, Dragoneer is horrible, you name it.

I don't have development talent. I'm not connected to anyone that is. But there are people on this forum, reading this thread, that are.

Now is your opportunity to make it easy for artists. I have over 3,000 submissions here on FA, as an example (and thousands of views I scraped and worked hard for). To repost my portfolio over on Weasyl, even with the Waxposter, chews up lots and lots of time...time I could spend doing other things like creation.

Pool the talent in these forums and make the tools to make it easy for artists to switch to other sites. That is concrete action that will mete out the punishment you seek.

-Seth


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## Verin Asper (Mar 23, 2015)

Terror-Run said:


> Neato, now people don't need to pay the site to actually look for art theft -_-
> just spread the link around because I feel the submission will be gone pretty soon. (it is also breaking the regular ToS afterall)


problem still...
They require a LINK to the submission being sold on their catty...
So unless that person ALSO have a link to each and every thing being sold...it aint much

I still have the DMCA form Fleshy an IMVU user gave us as its the template they use to take down stuff


			
				Fleshy said:
			
		

> Hey there! I'm an IMVU user and wanted to give you guys the same form I use for DMCA's. If done correctly, it should work without any problems, even if you are a non-US citizen. I have this posted in a few art groups on IMVU, to make it easy for others to get stolen content removed (products, textures, homepage layouts, display pictures, etc). I can't post it on the IMVU forums because of the rule about legal discussion, and I was gonna post it on the FA forums, but I haven't received a confirmation email yet. e.e
> 
> This form is almost identical to the one provided by IMVU (I simply broke it down and explained the different parts for you all). You can find the original one here: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/info/takedownnoticehtm.htm
> 
> ...



I think we should work with the users who are willing to help us as I'm sure some of them would be willing to risk their accounts to fix the problem we have with them as it would then in turn IMPROVE things for them.


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## Hermie (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm half tempted to bite the bullet and make an account, pay to have it verified, then pass out the login details for all to use.

Or, scratch that, fleshy is basically doing the work. Should have clicked the link first.


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

I've got a list I'm making ATM of all the art I recognize. If any of y'all see any art that you recognize or characters you know, please let me know and I'll add it to the list that I'll post here.
(I'm currently searching in "wall hangings" under the "furry" tag)


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

Thankfully it doesn't seem that anything I drew landed in the pile of pilfered art. Whew.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 23, 2015)

Times like this, I genuinely wonder if 'Neer and the staff actually care about the concerns of the members. I have that impression due to the fact that his journal well, the members on here aren't exactly exuberant about the changes. I honestly don't know how I or others should react, you know?


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Times like this, I genuinely wonder if 'Neer and the staff actually care about the concerns of the members. I have that impression due to the fact that his journal well, the members on here aren't exactly exuberant about the changes. I honestly don't know how I or others should react, you know?



I doubt he does. The last thing anyone's seen from him is a comment on someone's shouts basically saying this will all "smooth" out if we just wait two weeks.

Basically he's playing the "ignore the problem til it goes away" game.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 23, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> I doubt he does. The last thing anyone's seen from him is a comment on someone's shouts basically saying this will all "smooth" out if we just wait two weeks.
> 
> Basically he's playing the "ignore the problem til it goes away" game.



And he also stabbed another owner of FA in the back https://twitter.com/panderp/status/578647385976500224  How, or why anyone dares to put their trust in him is beyond me. It's bad enough the trouble ticket system is still broken.  What the actual hell is his damage with us? He see us as figures, statistics, not as people or furries with actual souls and personalities. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, so be it. I just want him to put in his two cents is all.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 23, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Basically he's playing the "ignore the problem til it goes away" game.



I will admit, this might be exactly what happens. People have a tendency to blow over stuff with time. For example, an annoying fucktard is an annoying fucktard, but if he's one that you're already used to, you begin to care less about what the annoying person does.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> And he also stabbed another owner of FA in the back https://twitter.com/panderp/status/578647385976500224  How, or why anyone dares to put their trust in him is beyond me. It's bad enough the trouble ticket system is still broken.  What the actual hell is his damage with us? He see us as figures, statistics, not as people or furries with actual souls and personalities. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, so be it. I just want him to put in his two cents is all.



To be fair...Panderp is a wee bit suspicious because he/she never tried to take action before. It's been a long time. Plus, he/she has to fork over legal proof and its just a too much of a mess to say who is in the right.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 23, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> I will admit, this might be exactly what happens. People have a tendency to blow over stuff with time. For example, an annoying fucktard is an annoying fucktard, but if he's one that you're already used to, you begin to care less about what the annoying person does.



It's still a very damnable thing for him to do, is it not? He can't hide from the users, given he has a Twitter account (as does the other owner who was pretty much fucked six ways from Sunday by 'Neer for making the deal behind his back, really smooth move there lol). If he really cared, maybe he would help quell the drama going on his journal? Maybe...? It would be worth a shot for him to intervene, wouldn't it? I mean, seriously, this is the worst drama I've seen on FA.



Butters Shikkon said:


> To be fair...Panderp is a wee bit suspicious because he/she never tried to take action before. It's been a long time. Plus, he/she has to fork over legal proof and its just a too much of a mess to say who is in the right.




He's gonna try and dig up the legal documentation, the thing that pisses me off, and many others, is that 'neer waited to damned months to tell us. Why wait? Why doesn't he actually do us a favor and explain the delay and be more transparent? Was there some kind of NDA bullshit that prevented him from doing so? And why IMVU? They seem to be quite furry-phobic and not open with furries at all. It feels like FA will just go under and that be, well, nothing.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 23, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> I will admit, this might be exactly what happens. People have a tendency to blow over stuff with time. For example, an annoying fucktard is an annoying fucktard, but if he's one that you're already used to, you begin to care less about what the annoying person does.



Normally I'd agree but this is different. It's more than just a controversial issue, it's something that will eventually change FA forever. No one believes IMVU bought FA out of their love of furries, so something will happen. It's just a matter of how long til it does.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 23, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> And why IMVU? They seem to be quite furry-phobic and not open with furries at all.



How do you figure? They've already got fimvu urry ads on the main site.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> How do you figure? They've already got fimvu urry ads on the main site.


The fact the process to file DMCA claims on your art is a long convoluted process and that you can't just look up a product, you have to spend credits on it to look at it, make an account. To me, that's bullshit and unnecessary. If something was stolen from there to here, no one would care. Dragoneer doesn't care about us, and he never will. If he did, he wouldn't have been a coward about not telling us after two sodding months after the deal was made. What kind of person does that to a huge furry community? Certainly not a caring owner. He cares about money, not how well the site does. Should I keep posting art and risk some numskull over there stealing it?


----------



## rjbartrop (Mar 23, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Of course cause his livelihood now depends on how content he can keep us...
> By having a boss(especially one that promoted "cutting out the fat") hes being watched and kept under review. If he does a poor job it will be on him and his team...
> Yea the rest of the admin team are also gonna be looked at.



Yes, if there is one positive in all this, it's that keeping a roof over his head now depends on keeping us all happy, and if this is actually about ad revenue, it also depends on ensuring as many eyeballs as possible remain focused on FA.


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Going back through "wall hangings" next. This was "picture frames" with the tag "furry". There are a LOT more images I couldn't source/recognized but couldn't remember, etc
These are being posted under the assumption that they were posted without permission. 
*If you don't own these images, do not file a DMCA*

*Falvie:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6544618/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=28211147
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/13126040/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=28090321
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11252997/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27820609
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9242425/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27820134
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9220323/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27820481
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7598439/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27820114
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7195046/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27820459
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9772436/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27820523
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9323017/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=19046811
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27043736
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10903223/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=26885409
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9929831/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=26531877
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8741275/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=26885462
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/14451276/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=28090390

Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=26885554 _

*Miles-DF:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12196963/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=27835742_

*Zen:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6840215/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=19817272
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2223226/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=13915646

Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=19817231_

*Shiuk:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1671741/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=19192342
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=16347094_
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4421670/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=8649609

*Miupix:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1325790/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=16800044_

*Strype:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1266054/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=10328151_

*Blotch:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/897968/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=10026612

Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=9896651
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=5850922
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=3838894_

*JunoWolf:*
_Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=7369969_

*Sidian:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/3619798/
Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=7321693_

*Orange04:*
_Stolen: http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=3322826_


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

The problem of proving that an artist is the original creator of a work is compounded by the fact that IMVU has no submission date information posted on its product pages. Though make no mistake, the requirement for a DMCA isn't an "anti-furry" thing, don't conflate it with such nonsense: It's specifically because they don't want to have to spend the resources to police their store unless absolutely necessary. If an artist doesn't want to file a DMCA? Great! That art keeps making them money, and they don't have to lift a finger.

The fact that these guys run their business this way and that they're profiting off stolen work either way (and rather unapologetically) should really be the most alarming part about all this.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> To be fair...Panderp is a wee bit suspicious because he/she never tried to take action before. It's been a long time. Plus, he/she has to fork over legal proof and its just a too much of a mess to say who is in the right.



Meh, I wouldn't hold my hopes high on a guy who literally tweeted about "asking my mother if I can sue them" Â¬_Â¬


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

I think (based on what I've been told) that an artist filing a DMCA is given benefit of the doubt in a situation like that purely because IMVU doesn't want to get it's hands dirty arguing with a legal request. If they can just delete a stolen image instead of argue with a DMCA, I think they'll choose that option.



Tchelline said:


> Meh, I wouldn't hold my hopes high on a guy who literally tweeted about "asking my mother if I can sue them" Â¬_Â¬


Mother-in-law*** who is a lawyer or something, and asking if there were any options**


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

User Fleshy offered 22 more screenshots of stolen art, this time with the search result for "wall hangings"

http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL
http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL
http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL


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## Volkodav (Mar 23, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> User Fleshy offered 22 more screenshots of stolen art, this time with the search result for "wall hangings"
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL
> http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL
> http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL



Perfect, thank you! Will see what sources I can dig up in a bit. I already recognize quite a few.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 23, 2015)

As long as you're looking, yes, there are a few by Jeremy Bernal, whom I'm sure will be tickled pink.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

I can't believe Dragoneer still believes everything is ok after the 864 and counting stolen items shown in those screenshots.

Our main enemy though is the average furry user who takes this all as a joke, as "another furry drama season to laugh at".


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 23, 2015)

Runefox said:


> As long as you're looking, yes, there are a few by Jeremy Bernal, whom I'm sure will be tickled pink.



Then tell him. We won't have much of an impact unless famous artists start to show that, effectively, IMVU is condoning art theft.

Although, art theft is not our biggest problem. The danger of premium accounts and massive ban of adult content is still latent and moderately possible.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 23, 2015)

Why he sold them off to IMVU I'll never know, Second Life would have been a better choice. He waited to effing months to tell the entire community, why? Something about doing so being pusillanimous?  Would it hurt his reputation?



Tchelline said:


> Then tell him. We won't have much of an impact unless famous artists start to show that, effectively, IMVU is condoning art theft.
> 
> Although, art theft is not our biggest problem. The danger of premium accounts and massive ban of adult content is still latent and moderately possible.



Oh believe me, should that ever happen, I will personally tell everyone off over there how I really feel, in fact, I would tell them, straight up, to fuck themselves sideways and burn in hell. Again, IF that should ever happen. I'll do it to, and I will rally others to do the same.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> I can't believe Dragoneer still believes everything is ok



He doesn't believe everything is ok. He knows its not. He just does not care.


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 24, 2015)

All that stolen art makes me sick to my stomach and the thing that pisses me off the most is that IMUV makes all the profit from it since they use this point system all yhe money stays within the website as I highly doubt that you can cash in your points for actual money.


----------



## Kragith Zedrok (Mar 24, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> He doesn't believe everything is ok. He knows its not. He just does not care.



Its not his to care about anymore. Plainly, its "out of his hands" and he was probably sick and tired of everyone judging his moves (for a many good reasons) and just said F this, made a deal with the most recent person and WOOSH away the problems go.


----------



## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 24, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Its not his to care about anymore. Plainly, its "out of his hands" and he was probably sick and tired of everyone judging his moves (for a many good reasons) and just said F this, made a deal with the most recent person and WOOSH away the problems go.



He should at least act like he cares, lest his new bosses think him a poor employee and strip him of his admin rank.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Kragith Zedrok said:


> Its not his to care about anymore. Plainly, its "out of his hands" and he was probably sick and tired of everyone judging his moves (for a many good reasons) and just said F this, made a deal with the most recent person and WOOSH away the problems go.



That's a very cowardly way for him to deal with problems. "Eh, I don't want to deal with my problems, so I'll let someone else deal with my problems for me". How nice of him. Even when asking about IMVU and flagging DMCA claims, he wasn't so sure on whether or not you had to sign up, he's on the damned site, he should know these things. 


Source: http://s13.postimg.org/n0dfg9olj/fggfsdg.png

Is transparency really that hard to get from him?


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

Gentlemen, the amount of posts related to this issue has been severely reduced, both here and in the Fender's five journal row. Dragoneer is getting what he wants, people are progresively stopping to care and forget.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 24, 2015)

I think it's so great that Fleshy and the other IMVU users are so helpful. That goes for everyone who is posting about the stolen art too.


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 24, 2015)

Well, it seems that one of the IMVU patrons finally found out why this business deal is somewhat bad on their end. I'll just drag the quote over.

"I won't assume that you are referring to my post  but in case you are, please allow me to clarify. I have no intention of  dismissing and/or demeaning you and yours or any other furry here or on  FA. My concerns are not even furry based. My shock is that Varsha posted  a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email  address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site. Not only is this against their own  TOS rules, but they placed it here in an all age area of the forums and  are very proud of it. Within 3 clicks of being on the FA site, my eyes  were reading very explicit pornographic stories and viewing questionable  images of child-like video game characters engaging in adult relations.  THIS whole thread does NOT belong in a GA area of this forum. THAT is  what I am disgusted by, not by you and your community. Hope that helps  to clear that up. May you rule your day! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"

Now we just have to wait for IMVU's private investors, or points card carriers, to hear about this and the real storm can begin.


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

Some more from the 18+ Imgur link. Pictures boxed in red are the stolen ones listed below. Blue-boxed means I recognize it from FA but can't remember who made it. Green-boxed means I believe it's stolen from Jeremy Bernal (I can't find his site)
Links to e621 aren't actually the "original" but link to the full res.

This is what I've got so far, I'm about halfway through. It goes without saying that these are all NSFW.
*Do not file DMCAs if you don't own the art*

http://imgur.com/a/0I9EB

*Ifus:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/3183816/_

*Miles-DF:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6854164/_

*Icee:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7752562/_

*TrueGrave9:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7532654/_

*Null-Ghost:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/3728204_

*J.Axer:*
_Original: https://e621.net/post/show/318514/4_toes-anthro-anus-barefoot-blue_hair-breasts-cani_

*EelYak:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7207087/_

*Falvie:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7623723/
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8431527/_

*SnowRoseRivenStar:*
_Original: https://e621.net/post/show/143778/anailaigh-anthro-breasts-clothed-clothing-equine-f_

*Blotch:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/495710/_

*Amun:*
_Original: https://e621.net/post/show/73885/2010-amun-anthro-bed-bedroom-blue_eyes-border_coll_

*Onta:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1153556/_

*Kadath:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7552214/_

*DaggerLeonelli:*
_Original: https://e621.net/post/show/51197/-3-anthro-breasts-canine-chest_tuft-collar-dagger__

*Strype:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1266054/
Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/914940/_

*Etuix:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7720784/_

*EnjoiPANDAS:*
_Original: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7547870/_


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Well, it seems that one of the IMVU patrons finally found out why this business deal is somewhat bad on their end. I'll just drag the quote over.
> 
> "I won't assume that you are referring to my post  but in case you are, please allow me to clarify. I have no intention of  dismissing and/or demeaning you and yours or any other furry here or on  FA. My concerns are not even furry based. My shock is that Varsha posted  a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email  address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site. Not only is this against their own  TOS rules, but they placed it here in an all age area of the forums and  are very proud of it. Within 3 clicks of being on the FA site, my eyes  were reading very explicit pornographic stories and viewing questionable  images of child-like video game characters engaging in adult relations.  THIS whole thread does NOT belong in a GA area of this forum. THAT is  what I am disgusted by, not by you and your community. Hope that helps  to clear that up. May you rule your day!
> 
> ...



That is...rather jarring that underage individuals have been gaining access to material so easily on the IMVU website...ugh  That being said, I'm glad the admins are opening their eyes and seeing this as a fatal mistake.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 24, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Well, it seems that one of the IMVU patrons finally found out why this business deal is somewhat bad on their end. I'll just drag the quote over.
> 
> "I won't assume that you are referring to my post  but in case you are, please allow me to clarify. I have no intention of  dismissing and/or demeaning you and yours or any other furry here or on  FA. My concerns are not even furry based. My shock is that Varsha posted  a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email  address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site. Not only is this against their own  TOS rules, but they placed it here in an all age area of the forums and  are very proud of it. Within 3 clicks of being on the FA site, my eyes  were reading very explicit pornographic stories and viewing questionable  images of child-like video game characters engaging in adult relations.  THIS whole thread does NOT belong in a GA area of this forum. THAT is  what I am disgusted by, not by you and your community. Hope that helps  to clear that up. May you rule your day!
> 
> ...



Well at least we have concrete proof that IMVU knows damn well what they're getting themselves into. Poor bastards.


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## Roshiyu (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> That is...rather jarring that underage individuals have been gaining access to material so easily on the IMVU website...ugh  That being said, I'm glad the admins are opening their eyes and seeing this as a fatal mistake.



Funny as it is, Varsha is the PR mod on the IMVU forums. She's the one that linked to the FA main page, in there General Rating forums. With added blessing to go over, check out the art, and greet the new site that we own, ect. ect.
The person I quoted did just that, and ran straight into the wall of smut right after creating an account.
I assume they were expecting adult filters to be defaulted to on?
Either way, it's far too easy to get access to porn on FA. Kids lie about their age on the internet by default. This is going to end badly, one way or another.

*Grabs some popcorn.*


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Funny as it is, Varsha is the PR mod on the IMVU forums. She's the one that linked to the FA main page, in there General Rating forums. With added blessing to go over, check out the art, and greet the new site that we own, ect. ect.
> The person I quoted did just that, and ran straight into the wall of smut right after creating an account.
> I assume they were expecting adult filters to be defaulted to on?
> Either way, it's far too easy to get access to porn on FA. Kids lie about their age on the internet by default. This is going to end badly, one way or another.
> ...




True, but at least someone admits something is amiss, unlike certain owners who shall remain anonymous. This ain't gonna be pretty. I'm gonna screencap that quote in case some embittered person deletes it.  They could have a serious lawsuit on their hands. 

*Goes to Costco to buy massive case of popcorn*


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

"_My shock is that Varsha posted a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site._"

Okay well this is BS. When you sign up to FA, you enter in a birthdate and won't see 18+ art unless your birthdate is set to 18+. That's literally all a site like FA can do instead of requiring every single user to send in their driver's license or something. When users are found to be underage, they have their 18+ privileges restricted and/or are banned from the site.
This is no different from some 10 year old Googling "hot girl tity" and then clicking "yes I'm 18+" on a porn site.

The only thing FA is *obligated to do* is to handle minors when they crop up and restrict their access to 18+ materials. If someone came from IMVU and entered their age as 18+, what did they seriously expect?


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> "_My shock is that Varsha posted a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site._"
> 
> Okay well this is BS. When you sign up to FA, you enter in a birthdate and won't see 18+ art unless your birthdate is set to 18+. That's literally all a site like FA can do instead of requiring every single user to send in their driver's license or something. When users are found to be underage, they have their 18+ privileges restricted and/or are banned from the site.
> This is no different from some 10 year old Googling "hot girl tity" and then clicking "yes I'm 18+" on a porn site.
> ...



Exactly. No one asks for proof of age (except scam porn sites who claim your credit card number is proof of age). 
Also as far as I'm concerned IMVU is being hypocritical if they want to denounce porn since they do have porn on their site (as long as you pay to see it)


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

They're making a mistake purchasing FA if furry porn icks them out
Yeah I went through and saw the mass amounts of stolen furry porn so shut up, IMVU.


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> They're making a mistake purchasing FA if furry porn icks them out
> Yeah I went through and saw the mass amounts of stolen furry porn so shut up, IMVU.



Stolen furry porn they KNOW exists but despite their "distaste" of it they won't remove it without legal documents that force them too.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> "_My shock is that Varsha posted a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site._"
> 
> Okay well this is BS. When you sign up to FA, you enter in a birthdate and won't see 18+ art unless your birthdate is set to 18+. That's literally all a site like FA can do instead of requiring every single user to send in their driver's license or something. When users are found to be underage, they have their 18+ privileges restricted and/or are banned from the site.
> This is no different from some 10 year old Googling "hot girl tity" and then clicking "yes I'm 18+" on a porn site.
> ...


Well IMVU is different...
you have to PAY MONEY to see +18 stuff...which they dont probably verify....so yea...both of us are in the same boat, just IMVU its 20 bucks each time, while FA is just make a new account.[/sarcasm]
edit: added a sarcasm tag just in cause


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

If an underager is caught with a paid 18+ account, I'm sure IMVU would remove that from them as well, though.
Really, they've got no room to talk.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

It's just a big ugly mess, bleh...


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 24, 2015)

I agree this is a big ugly mess and I personally believe its only going to get uglier. Still *hugs Everyone* Hugs make everyone feel a little better at least


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## Naesaki (Mar 24, 2015)

Massive ugly storm of a mess, I'd like to think when it all clears it will be nice and sunny but I think there is going to be a definite overcast for a long time to come. I honestly do really like the FA Community and Site, I'd hate to see it completely fade into obscurity.

If the mass exodus ever does happen, I actually worry that more of the same will happen to whichever site ends up with the influx of all FA members which would be Weasyl etc, the fear of the cycle repeating itself is rather high.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 24, 2015)

If the mass exodus ever does happen, I actually worry that more of the same will happen to whichever site ends up with the influx of all FA members which would be Weasyl etc, the fear of the cycle repeating itself is rather high.[/QUOTE]

this is a really big concern but I think that other sites are watching what happens here and seeing that the community reacts negatively to this kind of thing. So I doubt any other site is going to be willing to sell out after this fiasco. Or if they do consider selling out, it will be to other furs to keep it in the community.


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## Terror-Run (Mar 24, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> problem still...
> They require a LINK to the submission being sold on their catty...
> So unless that person ALSO have a link to each and every thing being sold...it aint much



Oh I know. I was thinking more of giving people peace of mind so they at least have the ability to check. And if it's there then each artist can decide which form of action they will take. Though - even if let's say a member with an AP account gets the link, then we would probably still not be able to see the content right? Doesn't that mean that the DMCA agents can't see the content either ? even with a direct link


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## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

What are the stances of the other mods of the main site, I wonder?


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## Hermie (Mar 24, 2015)




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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Does it not occur to you that people can be put off on mere principal? The site was sold to a shady organization that 1) does not care that art is stolen on the regular 2) the site makes it as much a hassle as possible to remove stolen content.
> This is reason enough to be put off. And before you pull the "well DevianArt does it too..." or whoever does the same thing, there's a difference between signing up for shady website and being absorbed into one without your knowledge.
> People can pick any reason they want to jump ship. Believe me, FA provides a near infinite amount. This one is just as relevant. Please go back to polishing that shiny white armor of yours.
> 
> ...



For a guy who frequents the forums you're not very bright are you? There are people leaving because of the theft, it's obvious they and you don't understand how the internet works, if you put something up, it could get stolen and secretly put up elsewhere. Now, there are ways to take stuff down from IMVU, and since it is known, people can do that. (kinda reminds me of some losers from DA actually, who just posted whatever the hell they found interesting, regardless of whose it was)

If you weren't born yesterday perhaps you'd actually have some sense in that tiny head of yours, calling me a white knight, brown noser, and/or Dragoneer alt shows that you clearly do not.



mcjoel said:


> Dude phil it's not just the art theft while that is a major reason it was just the final straw for people.
> I would list off the other problems but there is not enough time in the world to do so.



For some people, it is, I am well aware of that, but it should not be a 'straw' at all, because actually


FenrirDarkWolf said:


> The possibility of getting your art stolen was always there





ADF said:


> I haven't been taking part in this discussion, just occasionally peering in, but I don't like this argument.
> 
> The difference is the theft is no longer this external entity that FA has no control over, it's now FA's owner that is relaxed in squashing art theft and is profiting from the sale of stolen work. Surely you can understand why artists would take issue with that? Short of a major clamp down on art theft on their part, people are given little reason to have faith their property will be respected.
> 
> If you were a movie producer, you wouldn't be happy to hear the piratebay has bought your publisher.



The two sites are being run independently, Dragoneer has no more control over IMVU than they do FA, and the way IMVU wants people to report art theft is not going to change because they purchased a site with some victims of art theft, unfortunately.



Gryphoneer said:


> Meh, he's not Big Boss de Fur anymore, why would peeps still suck up to him? Cost-benefit ratio has shifted.
> 
> (Though Pheagle doesn't seem to have received the memo yet.)



Didn't say he owned it, moron. Said he ran it. He may have a boss, but that doesn't mean he has no control over FA.



Tchelline said:


> What Dragoneer says v.s. evidence, all in a single image:
> 
> http://postimg.org/image/hs96ugrg7/



IMVU isn't stealing art, its users are. IMVU may be profiting, of course I have no idea how much because who even uses IMVU...


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## Hermie (Mar 24, 2015)

Dude, you ARE a whiteknighting brown-noser. There's something called copyright law, which does in fact exist on the internet.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> "_My shock is that Varsha posted a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site._"
> 
> Okay well this is BS. When you sign up to FA, you enter in a birthdate and won't see 18+ art unless your birthdate is set to 18+. That's literally all a site like FA can do instead of requiring every single user to send in their driver's license or something. When users are found to be underage, they have their 18+ privileges restricted and/or are banned from the site.
> This is no different from some 10 year old Googling "hot girl tity" and then clicking "yes I'm 18+" on a porn site.
> ...



Exactly, if kids want to see explicit works that bad, they're going to lie about their age, no question. Hell, some do to buy cigarettes, beer, and to get into clubs. As long as no one can tell the difference, they get away with it.


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## Hermie (Mar 24, 2015)

Did you miss the part where IMVU directly profits from the sale of the stolen art?


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## Calemeyr (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> They're making a mistake purchasing FA if furry porn icks them out
> Yeah I went through and saw the mass amounts of stolen furry porn so shut up, IMVU.


"But FA isn't a porn site! Most of the art is GA (even though most of it has no views)." :V Dragoneer must've said something like that during the sale. Yeah, no. FA was founded when another site banned porn.
Also, everyone, just ignore football eagle man.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Hermie said:


> Did you miss the part where IMVU directly profits from the sale of the stolen art?



Did you miss the part where I mentioned that? Yes.



PheagleAdler said:


> IMVU isn't stealing art, its users are. IMVU may be profiting, of course I have no idea how much because who even uses IMVU...





Smelge said:


> If you were any further up this site anus, you'd be able to pick the bits of spinach out of its teeth.



That's called a mouth, wiseguy.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> That's called a mouth, wiseguy.



Digestive systems have two ends.

So, what you're saying is that artists shouldn't complain about the site just because FA is now owned by a company that not only benefits from stolen or plagiarised art, but actively makes it as difficult as possible to get anything done about it? But it could get stolen from any other site, yeah, but any other site isn't owned by the company profiting off of it.

I remember you from when I was last on here, and you always seemed indignant that everyone didn't pander to your every whim, so it's not surprising you lack sympathy for people who are getting screwed over. You have no moral ground to accuse people of anything when you've harassed and stalked artists for perceived slights, and even complained to the site about not being allowed to continue stalking them after they've blocked you.

To be honest, with the direction this site and it's new overlords have been heading for years, you deserve Furaffinity, and it deserves you. It must be nice to have some completely scummy public figure to admire, and aspire to be more like.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> That's called not getting what was written.
> 
> So, what you're saying is that artists shouldn't complain about the site just because FA is now owned by a company that not only benefits from stolen or plagiarised art, but actively makes it as difficult as possible to get anything done about it? But it could get stolen from any other site, yeah, but any other site isn't owned by the company profiting off of it.
> 
> ...



Um, what? I've made a few mistakes with artists in the past, that doesn't give you a right to judge me. I don't pull that crap. Not like you even care, but we made up. 

I don't stalk artists, if you're going to try to ruin my relationship with artists on the site, I will have you suspended. Not that any really have the time to lurk these forums anyway, but still.

And going backwards through an anus up to a mouth doesn't work, go ahead and try it.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> And going backwards through an anus up to a mouth doesn't work, go ahead and try it.



Do you... Think that people in this thread LITERALLY believe that your head is PHYSICALLY up Dragoneer's rectum...?


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> Do you... Think that people in this thread LITERALLY believe that your head is PHYSICALLY up Dragoneer's rectum...?



Judging by how well they think they know me, I wouldn't be surprised.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> And going backwards through an anus up to a mouth doesn't work, go ahead and try it.



I know, usually sphincters are one-way, but you somehow manage to force yourself that far up FA's arse that it actually breaks biology. Good job!

And it doesn't matter if you kissed and made up afterwards. You still have a history of doing that kind of thing. There is no justifiable reason to start contacting an artists loved ones unless they've genuinely run off with your money, not because they did someone else in their commissions queue first, or because they wanted a break from repeated harassment. It's not ok, and trying to make excuses for it again shows a lack of awareness of being in the wrong.

Oh look!

"Artist I harrassed won't work with me again, how do I make him?": 
https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/131049-Artist-doesn-t-want-to-do-work-for-me-anymore

"Artist blocked me, why can't I harass him some more?":
https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/132946


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> I know, usually sphincters are one-way, but you somehow manage to force yourself that far up FA's arse that it actually breaks biology. Good job!
> 
> And it doesn't matter if you kissed and made up afterwards. You still have a history of doing that kind of thing. There is no justifiable reason to start contacting an artists loved ones unless they've genuinely run off with your money, not because they did someone else in their commissions queue first, or because they wanted a break from repeated harassment. It's not ok, and trying to make excuses for it again shows a lack of awareness of being in the wrong.



I'm not making excuses for a bad history with one artist, and I'd appreciate it if you'd shut your mouth about it out of respect for the artist. This is old crap that doesn't need to be brought up. It's over, done with, we've both moved on. Your sorry ass hasn't.

And as far as FA goes, I support the site, that's it. I'm not up its ass or whiteknighting or anything stupid like that. The sooner you realize that, the sooner your HS Diploma will mean something to me.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

Much more seriously, the IMVU situation is pretty simple.  IMVU profits from the sale of these pirated artworks.  These profits are part of the funds that not only purchased Fur Affinity but go into each and every one of Dragoneer's paycheques now that he's on IMVU's payroll.  Dragoneer and IMVU thus have a significantly increased responsibility to protect the artists of FurAffinity beyond meerly obeying copryright laws by using the DMCA.


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## MoonRiverz (Mar 24, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Well, it seems that one of the IMVU patrons finally found out why this business deal is somewhat bad on their end. I'll just drag the quote over.
> 
> "I won't assume that you are referring to my post but in case you are, please allow me to clarify. I have no intention of dismissing and/or demeaning you and yours or any other furry here or on FA. My concerns are not even furry based. My shock is that Varsha posted a direct link to a site that with the entry of a user name, an email address and a password, any underage child from THIS website can access pornographic material on the FA site. Not only is this against their own TOS rules, but they placed it here in an all age area of the forums and are very proud of it. Within 3 clicks of being on the FA site, my eyes were reading very explicit pornographic stories and viewing questionable images of child-like video game characters engaging in adult relations. THIS whole thread does NOT belong in a GA area of this forum. THAT is what I am disgusted by, not by you and your community. Hope that helps to clear that up. May you rule your day!
> 
> ...



I am the person you quoted from the IMVU forums. My response you quoted was in response to another post I made earlier, which may or may not have been assumed that I was calling the furry fandom 'disgusting'. Below is my previous post, screenshot for your conveinence. 





=============================

I have been reading this entire thread since last night. I have read every single post on it. I have laughed at the quick wit of some of the users and mentally slapped a few others for dumbing me down. I have been a member of IMVU for over 5 years. I am a 42 year old woman, loving wife and devoted mother. I am not a ditzy bratz-styled lame-assed teenager. I own my home, pay taxes and jump on IMVU to chill with me and mine. I am a content creator who does so to support myself financially. I hang out in game with my real life husband, my best friend, my sister and my sister-in-law. We get together and laugh, chat, shop, design and just have fun within our group. There are a ton of mistruths being spread about the member base of IMVU and maybe I could set a few of them straight. Or you could just tell me to go to hell. 

*First of all, most importantly, IMVU is not the only ones who make real world cash in game. Creators are permitted to sell their credits earned to Registered Resellers, whose sole purpose is to buy credits off of the user base to resell at a cheaper price to other members. There are some designers who are making 6 figure real world salaries off of their virtual catalogs. Google Registered IMVU Resellers to check them out for yourself.. NOT ALL DESIGNERS STEAL ARTWORK!!!! NOT ALL USERS SELL ILLEGALLY GOTTEN CREDITS!!!!

*Just because you find a product in the store with stolen art, does not necesarily mean THAT particular user themselves stole it. There are many users who sell files (texture packs), as well as art they claim is theirs, such as DP's (default pics), homepage layouts, banners, etc. These are sold via in game credits and Paypal and mostly sold through private groups on the app. When finding a piece of your own work on IMVU, you must go through the links of the derivative to find who uploaded it. If you find a 0kb upload in someone's store, it is just a repost with a higher price tag added to it. Some folks even HIDE the original creator and reupload as their own, but going back through the blue links will allow you to sometimes find the original creator. Only VIP's have their items shown in the store. If you are a creator and do not have an active VIP account your products are removed from the store base. So what you see today, may not be there tomorrow, vice-versa. If another user has a direct link to your product and you are not a VIP user, they can still derive from your product (if permitted), buy it, try it, etc. This is true even for disabled/banned users products. You all have your work cut out for you!





*UFI (unfit for IMVU) products are not permitted on IMVU. There is an underground illegal user base in IMVU that sales UFI products on the blackmarket. You can Google IMVU blackmarket to satisfy your own curiosities. I will not hotlink them here. If you are found to be selling UFI products, you are immediately banned. This is what infuriates me that Varsha would post the direct link to this site in the GA forum, knowing full well it's intended average product base. Over and over I read of how much smut and pornography is posted on this site. IMVU also discontinued use of any UFI product because they could then not advertise their gift cards in the likes of Wal-Mart and such. They wish to be seen as family friendly and by acquiring this site makes us question them now. 





*The paywall set in place on IMVU AP is a set process. When I myself signed up for it, I had to verify my age by inputting my Social Security Number and providing a credit card in my name. I also have to regularly send in to customer support selfies of myself holding my photo ID and my credit card to make purchases, such as credits, shared rooms, etc. I am beyond pissed that they callously linked this site to their GA forum after the hoops I must jump through to view adult content, such as a bar, a stripper pole or have access to giving someone the middle finger. We cannot even share our photos from any AP public or private chat room anywhere on IMVU, except the specified AP forum. As you can see from my post above, even the words PORN are bleeped out because it was posted in the GA area of the forums. You cannot have anything AP wise on your profile card, or listed in any of your interests or share any of your AP photos in any public album. Your default pic cannot contain any AP items whatsoever, not even an AP backdrop!! But they can direct link in a GA forum to this site that is filled with what we consider to be AP content. We all know underage children lie about their age and this FA site alone has no steps in place to stop anyone from creating a fake account and using it. 

*Users can be banned for simply swearing in a GA (General Access) public chat room. ANY product tagged for reporting can get a very innocent GA rating slapped with an AP rating and there is nothing you can do about it. You can be disabled if you wrongly flag a set amount of new products through Peer Review (how items are approved into game). I personally have 15 wrongful flags against myself because what I did not pass was perfectly allowed through IMVU on the GA rating, so they claim. I no longer participate in the Peer Review activity due to this because I do not wish to threaten my account. Each user makes 5 credits per review, up to 750 credits daily. These are considered preedits and can only be used to purchase items for yourself. 

So now you have an idea of why I am infuriated with the FA post on the GA forums. A better understanding of what you have to look forward to and I am open to any questions you may need to know about the app itself. Maybe also a few of you could stop ragging so badly on the average IMVU user base as well. Some of you are just cold hearted!


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I'm not making excuses for a bad history with one artist, and I'd appreciate it if you'd shut your mouth about it out of respect for the artist. This is old crap that doesn't need to be brought up. It's over, done with, we've both moved on. Your sorry ass hasn't.


Actually, it's very relevant. It shows that you've had a lack of respect for artists in the past, and you're continuing to see them as disposable assets there for you to get what you want, regardless of their feelings.



> And as far as FA goes, I support the site, that's it. I'm not up its ass or whiteknighting or anything stupid like that. The sooner you realize that, the sooner your HS Diploma will mean something to me.



Actually, what you do is defend it undyingly for all it's faults, regardless of how bad they are. You stick up for it at every turn. That is the textbook definition of a white knight.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Actually, it's very relevant. It shows that you've had a lack of respect for artists in the past, and you're continuing to see them as disposable assets there for you to get what you want, regardless of their feelings.



No, I don't, and you're pretty damn stupid if you think otherwise. I don't think they're disposable, they're very important. But of course someone like you would lack the intelligence to see that, and instead focus on something stupid I did a few years ago. Seriously, get over yourself.



> Actually, what you do is defend it undyingly for all it's faults, regardless of how bad they are. You stick up for it at every turn. That is the textbook definition of a white knight.



I don't 'defend' it, I support it, and there's a decent number of things I would change about the site, just like everyone else.


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## PastryOfApathy (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I don't 'defend' it, I support it, and there's a decent number of things I would change about the site, just like everyone else.



Name one bad thing about FA and it's staff.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> Name one bad thing about FA and it's staff.



The site hasn't had a good history with promises, I'm well aware of everything we were supposed to get and I'm still wondering where that recent UI preview is.


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## Draconas (Mar 24, 2015)

Holy heated fighting batman


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> My post history has to do with how many idiots I've had to respond to.


Funny that. If people don't agree with you they must be the idiots? Right?



> Also, kind of ironic how you say I'm the one being insulting because you don't 'subscribe to how I think things should go" when it's actually the other way around.



Can we have a better argument than "NO U"? I'm missing the French air crash coverage for this, so at least make it worth my time.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Funny that. If people don't agree with you they must be the idiots? Right?
> 
> 
> 
> Can we have a better argument than "NO U"? I'm missing the French air crash coverage for this, so at least make it worth my time.



It must be worth your time otherwise you'd have stopped a while ago. I'm throwing it back at you because it's true, not because I can say "No U"
People aren't idiots because they don't agree with me. People are idiots because they assume I'm the Antichrist just because I didn't go along with whatever they said. It's fine to have opinions, it's not fine to crucify anyone that disagrees with those opinions.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

You haven't heard the old saying?

If you see idiots everywhere, maybe the problem isn't them, it's you.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> You haven't heard the old saying?
> 
> If you see idiots everywhere, maybe the problem isn't them, it's you.



Everywhere? No, I don't, just the regular band of em that always shows up. There's a select few that have an issue with taking up arguments with me, and you've recently joined their ranks apparently, and I'm sorry to hear that.


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## RTDragon (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> No, I don't, and you're pretty damn stupid if you think otherwise. I don't think they're disposable, they're very important. But of course someone like you would lack the intelligence to see that, and instead focus on something stupid I did a few years ago. Seriously, get over yourself.



Actually you do considering your posts here make it clear and from those two thread Smelgle posted you were banned before for those posts. And one of the former mods has a point that can be used against you in an Artist Beware. Plus you really don't know very much about copyright or rights. So basically i will not be surprised if these artists find your posts and start blacklisting you as someone to avoid since you actually commission people. Considering your posts can be used against you.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Everywhere? No, I don't, just the regular band of em that always shows up.



Oh, that's ok then. I just assumed that you saw everyone you talked to as idio....WAIT A MINUTE...



PheagleAdler said:


> My post history has to do with how many idiots I've had to respond to.



Ah, immediate contradictions. An FA tradition.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Oh, that's ok then. I just assumed that you saw everyone you talked to as idio....WAIT A MINUTE...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, immediate contradictions. An FA tradition.



Well, if I didn't have to constantly respond to you, I would haven't that problem, now would I?



RTDragon said:


> Actually you do considering your posts here make it clear and from those two thread Smelgle posted you were banned before for those posts. And one of the former mods has a point that can be used against you in an Artist Beware. Plus you really don't know very much about copyright or rights. So basically i will not be surprised if these artists find your posts and start blacklisting you as someone to avoid since you actually commission people. Considering your posts can be used against you.



Yes, I am fully aware, Einstein. Times change, I have moved on from that, but a simpleton like you who has nothing else to do but argue with me would not see that, would he?


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Just read the recent posts from the time I went to bed last night






I don't know what happened, but people really should at least try to see things eye to eye instead of name-calling. We should all agree that FA, as a site, has a lot that needs resolving and that the current owner, Dragoneer needs to step forward and come up with a better explanation on how things will pan out, now that two major sites have merged, and how FA will be unaffected (or so he states on his Twitter). The drama on Fender's journal has, well, heh, gone to levels I've personally never seen on FA.


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## Calemeyr (Mar 24, 2015)

So no aroused genitals on IMVU. Then why did IMVU purchase FA, when a large amount of the porn here involves aroused genitals? By the posted chart above, it seems the most you can see on IMVU is Cinemax/HBO level stuff, but FA is full blown hardcore porno spoof. Just doesn't make much sense.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> So no aroused genitals on IMVU. Then why did IMVU purchase FA, when a large amount of the porn here involves aroused genitals? By the posted chart above, it seems the most you can see on IMVU is Cinemax/HBO level stuff, but FA is full blown hardcore porno spoof. Just doesn't make much sense.



Not to mention the so-called reassurances I've seen on the IMVU forums that are many furry users on there, or some crap like that. Why the hell did Dragoneer, in a drunken stupor, decide to sell FA to a site that shuns 70 or percent of the content on FA? I sincerely hope no one is defending 'Neer's bullshit.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Well, if I didn't have to constantly respond to you, I would haven't that problem, now would I?
> 
> Yes, I am fully aware, Einstein. Times change, I have moved on from that, but a simpleton like you who has nothing else to do but argue with me would not see that, would he?



See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If people don't see things your way, you categorise them like idiots. RTDragon was in no way rude, but posted an opinion that doesn't align with your opinion, so your immediate response was to talk down to him. See, what you're doing is being in denial about your atittude to people. You get attacked because you're instantly hostile to people who don't instantly agree with you.


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## Calemeyr (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Not to mention the so-called reassurances I've seen on the IMVU forums that are many furry users on there, or some crap like that.


Maybe they made many accounts, but then saw it was watered-down SL, and then said "F it, I'm going back to SL."

Speaking of SL, what will happen to custom avatar screenshots? Kind of a conflict of interest for IMVU, especially if they show off FA works and SL stuff happens to be there.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If people don't see things your way, you categorise them like idiots. RTDragon was in no way rude, but posted an opinion that doesn't align with your opinion, so your immediate response was to talk down to him. See, what you're doing is being in denial about your atittude to people. You get attacked because you're instantly hostile to people who don't instantly agree with you.



An opinion, about me. Stop focusing on me and you'll see less hostility. Get it? I'm not going to just say "yes, you think I'm stupid and ignorant, so it must be true." I will tell you to shove that opinion up your ass though. 

Consider focusing your anger at the site, not me. Thank you.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> Maybe they made many accounts, but then saw it was watered-down SL, and then said "F it, I'm going back to SL."



The problem with IMVU is that nobody has heard of it. The furry community for that kind of thing is embedded in SL. To me, the acquisition seems more like a cynical "if we own their site, maybe they'll make the switch". They want to audience, but I suspect they've been mis-sold this site. They thought they were getting a captive audience without knowing the kind of history it had with the users, and how badly the site has fucked people over in the past. I get the impression that a lot of people were looking for an excuse to make a switch, and as fuck-up followed fuck-up it's making it seem more of a sensible plan to start migrating.



PheagleAdler said:


> An opinion, about me. Stop focusing on me  and you'll see less hostility. Get it? I'm not going to just say "yes,  you think I'm stupid and ignorant, so it must be true." I will tell you  to shove that opinion up your ass though.



He was saying stuff that is backed up by proof and evidence, and your behaviour on public forums means that a pretty accurate picture can be drawn. If evidence is stacking up against it, maybe you need to take a look at your past and current actions and make an effort to rectify them rather than dismissing everyone. Slightly altering it, if everyone around you sees a problem, sometims the reason you don't see it is because you are it.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> Maybe they made many accounts, but then saw it was watered-down SL, and then said "F it, I'm going back to SL."
> 
> Speaking of SL, what will happen to custom avatar screenshots? Kind of a conflict of interest for IMVU, especially if they show off FA works and SL stuff happens to be there.




Simple, tell the high-ups who see the SL work to fuck off. Couldn't be more simple, right? And it feels good to tell them off for screwing us over. Either that, or simply install ad-blocking add-ons for Chrome/Firefox that block anything the place? I don't know what would happen, SL is better than that stupid IMVU site will ever be anyways. Sorry, but Second Life will get more money way before IMVU does, as that will be a cold day in hell.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Simple, tell the high-ups who see the SL work to fuck off. Couldn't be more simple, right? And it feels good to tell them off for screwing us over. Either that, or simply install ad-blocking add-ons for Chrome/Firefox that block anything the place? I don't know what would happen, SL is better than that stupid IMVU site will ever be anyways. Sorry, but Second Life will get more money way before IMVU does, as that will be a cold day in hell.



Personally, I think SL and IMVU screenshots have no place on an art site unless it's content that the submitter has actually created. Which it rarely is.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> that doesn't mean IMVU was stealing, its users are still the culprits.



We're aware. IMVU does nothing or at the very least not enough to quell the sheer rampancy of it. This is the crux of the issue. *FA was sold to a site that does not care. *This is what I said, and you completely ignored.

White knight.


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## mcjoel (Mar 24, 2015)

Ignore phil smelge as arguing with him is pointless and could get this thread locked which he and tge mods probably want.


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## Calemeyr (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> The problem with IMVU is that nobody has heard of it. The furry community for that kind of thing is embedded in SL. To me, the acquisition seems more like a cynical "if we own their site, maybe they'll make the switch". They want to audience, but I suspect they've been mis-sold this site. They thought they were getting a captive audience without knowing the kind of history it had with the users, and how badly the site has fucked people over in the past. I get the impression that a lot of people were looking for an excuse to make a switch, and as fuck-up followed fuck-up it's making it seem more of a sensible plan to start migrating.



I get that feeling too. I don't think IMVU would be dumb enough not to have an escape plan if things go pear shaped. I think IMVU may be too confident that furs will switch, and when they realize furs aren't jumping over, they'll resell or just dump FA like yesterday's garbage. Either way, things are not looking good for the future of the site. Though if Linden Labs could buy FA...that might work nicely.



krystalfox77 said:


> Simple, tell the high-ups who see the SL work to fuck off. Couldn't be more simple, right? And it feels good to tell them off for screwing us over. Either that, or simply install ad-blocking add-ons for Chrome/Firefox that block anything the place? I don't know what would happen, SL is better than that stupid IMVU site will ever be anyways. Sorry, but Second Life will get more money way before IMVU does, as that will be a cold day in hell.


You're definitely not alone with this. I'm pretty sure a majority of furs feel this way. Seriously, I thought IMVU was like yahoo answers/Gaia forums, not an SL knockoff.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> I get that feeling too. I don't think IMVU would be dumb enough not to have an escape plan if things go pear shaped. I think IMVU may be too confident that furs will switch, and when they realize furs aren't jumping over, they'll resell or just dump FA like yesterday's garbage. Either way, things are not looking good for the future of the site.
> 
> 
> You're definitely not alone with this. I'm pretty sure a majority of furs feel this way. Seriously, I thought IMVU was like yahoo answers/Gaia forums, not an SL knockoff.



Yahoo Answers? That's bad enough, the place has turned into nothing but bad questions, bad answers, and spam. And apparently their format change allows people to respond to questions that were expired YEARS ago.


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## PastryOfApathy (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Personally, I think SL and IMVU screenshots have no place on an art site unless it's content that the submitter has actually created. Which it rarely is.



Well to be fair, there's a lot of things regularly posted on FA that don't belong on an art site. Or any site really.


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## Ansitru (Mar 24, 2015)

Y'know, after following this this thread passively and vowing to never touch this account again after the last fuck-up, I just had to log in to say a couple of things.

- Yes art theft happens on other sites. Except FA is now owned by a site that actively profits off of it and makes it difficult to report, so ... y'know. There's that. 
- PheagleAdler: you _are _a brownnoser, even if you don't want to hear it. Someone posts proof, you immediately stand at the ready to defend the actions by using the most twisted logic I've ever seen. If anything, I'm in awe at the fact that you constantly seem to be able to find excuses. Go into PR, man. Do something productive with that particular skill of yours. 

Other than that: same shit, different day.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

mcjoel said:


> Ignore phil smelge as arguing with him is pointless and could get this thread locked which he and tge mods probably want.



Pheagle's attitude is merely an example of a side problem FA faces, that a large group of people simply don't care and want to force others to follow suit. Granted in an army of white knights, Pheagle's the Fuhrer and gladly accepts his leadership position. The term "hate begets hate" sound familiar? Well stupid begets stupid and that's not entirely healthy. We respond when he says something profoundly idiotic because it damages the situation further if we let it continue. The same goes for other people of his ilk not knowing a damn thing they're talking about and downplaying legitimate concerns. 

If he wants to be "neutral" and "optimistic" fine. But he's not. There have been a few people who think this may be better for FA and have given their reasons why. I disagree, but I respect them for not being obtuse about it. _He's_ damage controlling and flagrantly disregarding facts, taunting more civil users when they respond in opposition, and going to profiles to harass them like he did to RedSavage. By the way, I thank you Smelge for digging up the old threads of our little pet eagle though. I now fully recall him and understand what sort of gross individual he can be.

I realize I am not making the best response for this thread. I just find plucking his feathers enjoyable when it's appropriate, though for the sake of the thread, I'll make an effort to relax.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Wow, I love how Dragoneer acknowledges the fact we're all facepalming https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/580400165376385025  and yet, he now sites on a mountain of cash. Why are we not surprised? Oy vey...


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## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

As funny as it is to see steam blow out Pheagle's ears, I'm going to go ahead and bring us back on topic. There have been a few points raised that have some impact on the discussion and I feel that they're being missed.

First, IMVU requiring a SSN, credit card in-name, and regular selfies with photo ID to access AP content. That makes it even more difficult for artists to access the AP section of the site for the purposes of issuing DMCA requests.

Second, IMVU disallowing sexual displays / depictions of arousal / etc. That sounds fine, but there are two problems with that:

1) FurAffinity is rife with that.
2) So is IMVU's store.

Third, Dragoneer is being paid partly with money gained through sale of stolen artwork, but IMVU is unwilling to cooperate with artists who don't want to buy into their paywalled AP service in order to actually make a DMCA takedown. This is probably the most damning after considering the rest, because it ultimately shows that IMVU is actively attempting to make it as difficult as possible to remove stolen content from their storefront. For as strict as the rest of their policies appear to be, the glaring omission of any apparent policing of copyright in the store is a clear signal that they wish to profit from the content regardless, for as long as legally possible. It is literally not legal for a US company to do any less than respond to a DMCA claim, and they willfully are making it difficult to both search the store and access very likely more than half the applicable content for copyright holders to browse. *That in itself may not even be legal*, but IMVU clearly doesn't care where money is involved as long as nobody calls them out on it.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Wow, I love how Dragoneer acknowledges the fact we're all facepalming https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/580400165376385025  and yet, he now sites on a mountain of cash. Why are we not surprised? Oy vey...


Some are, yes. I knew not everyone would be warm and welcoming to *any* change. Any announcement, no matter how small, is always met with resistance (even stating "Hey, you now have new categories to upload your art to!" gets met with resistance).

And when did I say I have a mountain of cash? I wish I had a mountain of cash. I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> By the way, I thank you Smelge for digging up the old threads of our little pet eagle though.



Credit where credit is due, I got those threads from a source. Don't thank me for them. However I remember his bullshit from back when I came here, so I was more than happy to spread the wealth.



Runefox said:


> First, IMVU requiring a SSN, credit card in-name,  and regular selfies with photo ID to access AP content. That makes it  even more difficult for artists to access the AP section of the site for  the purposes of issuing DMCA requests.



Makes it impossible for people outside the US as well if it requires an SSN.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Some are, yes. I knew not everyone would be warm and welcoming to *any* change. Any announcement, no matter how small, is always met with resistance (even stating "Hey, you now have new categories to upload your art to!" gets met with resistance).
> 
> And when did I say I have a mountain of cash? I wish I had a mountain of cash. I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.



Then why are you not saying anything on the journal that people linked to you? Why are you not quelling their fears and concerns, and why are you not doing anything about making it easier for people to file DMCA claims without having to use their SSN and credit card information? This is a big mess, dude, what are people supposed to do about it?  Ignoring the Tweets that people send you really only makes things worse, wouldn't you agree?  I want this drama to end, we all do, but, what are we supposed to do if our art keeps getting stolen and don't want to give out our SSN and other info to sign up?


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## Ansitru (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Then why are you not saying anything on the journal that people linked to you? Why are you not quelling their fears and concerns, and why are you not doing anything about making it easier for people to file DMCA claims without having to use their SSN and credit card information? This is a big mess, dude, what are people supposed to do about it?



If the past is any indication? We're supposed to forget and settle down because we won't be getting the answers we need.


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## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Wrote some stuff...


IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.

I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6603906/

Onta's jumping ship.  That's a pretty big name to lose for FA, it's like a mall losing it's Target, not good for the whole mall.  This IMVU thing might be where FA finally sinks.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Then why are you not saying anything on the journal that people linked to you? Why are you not quelling their fears and concerns, and why are you not doing anything about making it easier for people to file DMCA claims without having to use their SSN and credit card information? This is a big mess, dude, what are people supposed to do about it?


You may want to actuall look into what it takes to file a DMCA, because it's not hard. All you have to do to file a DMCA to IMVU is write out a DMCA and send it to dmca@imvu.com.

That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.
> 
> I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.



That's certainly more than fair enough. Many of us didn't know what was truly going on, other than mass confusion. But the sad thing is, many people are jumping ship, I don't know if those people will ever come back 



Dragoneer said:


> You may want to actuall look into what it takes to file a DMCA, because it's not hard. All you have to do to file a DMCA to IMVU is write out a DMCA and send it to dmca@imvu.com.
> 
> That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.



That doesn't change the fact I would have to still sign up, use my SSN, credit card in order to access the marketplace and actually see the product ID. We shouldn't have to, you know? What's going to happen? Are you going to update a journal and further clarify the issue?


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.
> 
> I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.



Just to be clear here: Even you, as an IMVU employee, can't really do anything about pirated materials on IMVU.  You can't be like 'Hey guys, this is clearly pirated, hose it' but instead you have contact the artist and make THEM file a LEGAL THREAT against IMVU just to make any of the gears in the system move?  You are THAT powerless and IMVU is THAT unwilling to act except to require the artist to make the most effort possible?

Because, for the sake of comparison, if three months ago I uploaded another artists artwork and said 'I MADE THIS' you or another FA admin would have just deleted it.  That's it it SHOULD work on an art site.  You shouldn't be requiring all your artists to say 'TAKE IT DOWN OR ELSE COURT'.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> You may want to actuall look into what it takes to file a DMCA, because it's not hard. All you have to do to file a DMCA to IMVU is write out a DMCA and send it to dmca@imvu.com.
> 
> That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.



But you need those things if your work is in the Adult section. Add in to that a DMCA is American. Anywhere that isn't America can still use it but it's not really something that can be backed up by courts.

ARGH. Fuck you for making me defend FA here, but:


AshleyAshes said:


> Just to be clear here: Even you, as an IMVU  employee, can't really do anything about pirated materials on IMVU.  You  can't be like 'Hey guys, this is clearly pirated, hose it' but instead  you have contact the artist and make THEM file a LEGAL THREAT against  IMVU just to make any of the gears in the system move?  You are THAT  powerless and IMVU is THAT unwilling to act except to require the artist  to make the most effort possible?



You're being unfair there. There's no guarantee that the person who uploaded the stuff on IMVU isn't the actual artist. Any sort of claim has to come from the party that's been harmed, not from a third party, so this is actually a legitimate response.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> Just to be clear here: Even you, as an IMVU employee, can't really do anything about pirated materials on IMVU. You can't be like 'Hey guys, this is clearly pirated, hose it' but instead you have contact the artist and make THEM file a LEGAL THREAT against IMVU just to make any of the gears in the system move? You are THAT powerless and IMVU is THAT unwilling to act except to require the artist to make the most effort possible?
> 
> Because, for the sake of comparison, if three months ago I uploaded another artists artwork and said 'I MADE THIS' you or another FA admin would have just deleted it. That's it it SHOULD work on an art site. You shouldn't be requiring all your artists to say 'TAKE IT DOWN OR ELSE COURT'.


Well, those outside the US are SOL, and the IMVU doesn't seem to care enough to want to do anything about it, because it's a known fact that it's a long and drawn-out process that isn't even guaranteed to work 100% of the time, am I wrong?



Smelge said:


> But you need those things if your work is in the Adult section. Add in to that a DMCA is American. Anywhere that isn't America can still use it but it's not really something that can be backed up by courts.


What about those who live outside the US?  They're shit outta luck, they can't file DMCA claims because they are just...well, screwed. For the adult section, yeah, you need to put in billing info, which is utterly asinine. When is he going to go in and reassure those who can't file claims?

Edit: Well look at that, Dragoneer was online for a whopping five minutes. Ugh.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6603906/
> 
> Onta's jumping ship.  That's a pretty big name to lose for FA, it's like a mall losing it's Target, not good for the whole mall.  This IMVU thing might be where FA finally sinks.



And Dragoneer is groveling at his feet in the comments. But anything else from common users is completely ignored. I don't think I'd trust a site asking for my SSN to remove my content. There is very little else one could do if THAT is a requirement. I don't blame Onta for leaving.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> That doesn't change the fact I would have to still sign up, use my SSN, credit card in order to access the marketplace and actually see the product ID. We shouldn't have to, you know? What's going to happen? Are you going to update a journal and further clarify the issue?


IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> You're being unfair there. There's no guarantee that the person who uploaded the stuff on IMVU isn't the actual artist. Any sort of claim has to come from the party that's been harmed, not from a third party, so this is actually a legitimate response.



But this burden has never existed on FA.  No one was ever going to go 'Well, how on earth do we know that this AshleyAshes account isn't the Alt and Honest-And-True account for Strypes?  We better play it safe and leave it'.  No, they'd HOSE THE GALLERY.  Hell, if I did it enough, they'd ban me.  The real artist(s) could be on vacation to Hawaii, miles from their computers or phones, and FA admins would cleaning house without legal threats.

...Well, assuming anyone ever read the trouble ticket about it.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.


And what of those who live outside the US? As far as I know, that concern hasn't been addressed, am I wrong? The DMCA only applies to US citizens, not those who live in Europe, Oceania, Asia, etc, so essentially what you're saying to those people is, "Sorry, you live outside the US, you're shit outta luck"?  No offense, but I personally think Second Life would have been a much better choice to sell FA to, but that's just me, and well, many others in the furry community TBH.  That's me being brutally honest.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.



Didn't you just get $2200+ in donations to buy a new Cintiq?



Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists.


They're aware, but so far I've seen no indication that they care.



> Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.


... Which involves either you forwarding them the link to the content, or them paying your employers money and providing personal info in exchange for the privilege of accessing the AP section to file the DMCA.



Dragoneer said:


> That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.


... Except to view the AP section in the first place, you need:


Money
SSN
Credit card in-name
Photographic record of you holding your photo ID
In addition to...


The DMCA form
A few months of your time for IMVU to review



Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.


Okay, so are you removing it for them, or are you telling them to sign up for AP and file a DMCA?


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> And Dragoneer is groveling at his feet in the comments. But anything else from common users is completely ignored. I don't think I'd trust a site asking for my SSN to remove my content. There is very little else one could do if THAT is a requirement. I don't blame Onta for leaving.


Groveling? No. I'm doing the same thing I'm doing for other artists. I'm letting them know I'm here to help, and that we're working with them. Nothing more.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.



Which is dumb.

It would be far easier to set up a section on FA with the thumbnails of everything tagged as furry, and the address and link it so people can browse thumbnails and select the ones they own. It isn't on IMVU so it stays within their fucktarded paywall parameters, and it means the person who is meant to be running the site isn't pissing about browsing stuff for hours.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

*Self-removed post because it only makes it worse*


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Groveling? No. I'm doing the same thing I'm doing for other artists. I'm letting them know I'm here to help, and that we're working with them. Nothing more.



So if I check Spix's journal about the issue and how they're looking at leaving, you'll be there explaining that everything is OK and that you're personally going to work to ensure that IMVU polices this in the future (not that you have a say)?


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> And what of those who live outside the US? As far as I know, that concern hasn't been addressed, am I wrong? The DMCA only applies to US citizens, not those who live in Europe, Oceania, Asia, etc, so essentially what you're saying to those people is, "Sorry, you live outside the US, you're shit outta luck"?  No offense, but I personally think Second Life would have been a much better choice to sell FA to, but that's just me, and well, many others in the furry community TBH.  That's me being brutally honest.


You can be brutally honest, that's fine.

And filing DMCA is not exclusive to Americans. DMCA is honored around the globe in most countries (I don't have a list of them off hand).



Runefox said:


> ... Except to view the AP section in the first place, you need:
> 
> 
> Money
> ...





That's solely to verify age, nothing more. I've been sending some users links to their art on the marketplace to help them identify what needs to be removed.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> So if I check Spix's journal about the issue and how they're looking at leaving, you'll be there explaining that everything is OK and that you're personally going to work to ensure that IMVU polices this in the future (not that you have a say)?


If I find about them, yes. I don't follow every user on the site, but when I see journals like that I try to assure them that we're here to help.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> You can be brutally honest, that's fine.
> 
> And filing DMCA is not exclusive to Americans. DMCA is honored around the globe in most countries (I don't have a list of them off hand).
> [/LIST]
> ...



Oh man...oh man..... what have I....said...... 

Excuse me while I go weeping in a dark corner, beating myself up over my last posts on this thread


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> And filing DMCA is not exclusive to Americans. DMCA is honored around the globe in most countries (I don't have a list of them off hand).


Right, but proving copyright remains a big issue there compared to in the US, especially when IMVU has no submission date on any of their shop items.



> That's solely to verify age, nothing more. I've been sending some users links to their art on the marketplace to help them identify what needs to be removed.


So if these artists were willing to provide everything but the money, would IMVU be fine with them browsing the AP section?


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> That's solely to verify age, nothing more. I've been sending some users links to their art on the marketplace to help them identify what needs to be removed.



You had TWO MONTHS after selling FA to IMVU to look into IMVU and how it operates, to see that it is FULL of jacked furry art, that is sold and where IMVU ultimately receives all the revenue generated by it's virtual currency, why did you not spend any of that time preparing a solution for this beyond 'Waiting for it to explode and to start scowering IMVU personally, attempting to eyeball artist ownership, and messaging them to instruct them on how to issue their own DMCA'?


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Groveling? No. I'm doing the same thing I'm doing for other popular artists. I'm letting them know I'm here to help, and that we're working with them. Nothing more.



Fixed that for you.

Yeah, it's great and all that you're taking the time to reassure people, but the problem now is that you're reassuring a few select and amazingly popular people. You either reassure everyone or no-one. You shouldn't be telling people it'll be alright on a journal by Onta, you should be doing it as loudly as possible for everyone to hear.

What happened to those town hall meetings? That's an ideal way to address users concerns. But you won't because it's harder to avoid awkward questions.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> So if these artists were willing to provide everything but the money, would IMVU be fine with them browsing the AP section?


That would be a question for IMVU, but I know they're reading the forums and making a note of user concerns.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> That would be a question for IMVU, but I know they're reading the forums and making a note of user concerns.



In other words, you're passing the buck here despite the fact that you are an employee of IMVU and are IMVU's sole representative in this community (that we know of).

Neer, this is customer service 101. "I don't know, but I'll find out". Boom.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> That would be a question for IMVU, but I know they're reading the forums and making a note of user concerns.


Are you going to help more than a select few, more than just the uber popular artists? And will you publicly reassure and address that issues at hand? Because that would be a really good way to assuage their fears  Or will you only continue to help 0.0001% of the artists who are popular? This is a serious issue that desperately needs to be addressed, a journal entry should be made.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Yeah, it's great and all that you're taking the time to reassure people, but the problem now is that you're reassuring a few select and amazingly popular people. You either reassure everyone or no-one. You shouldn't be telling people it'll be alright on a journal by Onta, you should be doing it as loudly as possible for everyone to hear.


Stop. Do not put words in my mouth. 

I don't care about user popularity, I care about helping people. That's all I've ever sought to do. I don't want any user feeling that they're uncomfortable being here, or we're not here to help. We are.

And I have been doing it loudly for people to here. I've been posting on Twitter, FA, Reddit and trying to address people's concerns. We've posted multiple notices to help alleviate those issues.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Are you going to help more than a select few, more than just the uber popular artists? And will you publicly reassure and address that issues at hand? Because that would be a really good way to assuage their fears  Or will you only continue to help 0.0001% of the artists who are popular? This is a serious issue that desperately needs to be addressed, a journal entry should be made.


Please look a few posts up. I stated I was helping people. I never once stated I was solely helping popular people.

I help users. I don't help one kind of user, or popular users. I never have.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Yup, I'm definitely going to crawl in a dark corner, weep openly and hope that tomorrow will be a better day  Damn I feel sick to my stomach....


----------



## Hermie (Mar 24, 2015)

Yeah, because banning people who are helping spread info on stolen art is REALLY helping. Just shut the fuck up and quietly leave the fandom.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> In other words, you're passing the buck here despite the fact that you are an employee of IMVU and are IMVU's sole representative in this community (that we know of).
> 
> Neer, this is customer service 101. "I don't know, but I'll find out". Boom.


Oddly, the few times I stated "I don't know, but I'll find out for you" everyone attacked me over it. =P

But yes, we've been relaying concerns back and forth to address user worries.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I don't care about user popularity, I care about helping people.



Let's not kid ourselves.  You most certainly DO care about user popularity.  You HAVE TO.  It would only take the 20 most popular artists on FA to leave and setup shop elsewhere to turn FA into a ghost town within twelve months and you looking for a new job.  That is HOW social networks collapse, your entire 'social' aspect of FA is dependent on having what people want to come see, lose it, and people will start moving to the places that do have what they can see.  This is how MySpace from 'Declining' to 'Sinking Like A Stone' when the collapsed happened; Because enough people moved from MySpace to Facebook that those on MySpace that remained found they had less content and less connections connections, so moving to Facebook themselves was the only option.  The decline was exponential in nature.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 24, 2015)

Holy shit Dragoneer is actually answering questions (albeit in the most  vague, useless, and corporate way possible)? Did I just step into  another dimension?



Dragoneer said:


> If I find about them, yes. I don't follow every user on the site, but when I see journals like that I try to assure them that we're here to help.



So the solution is "if you're popular and bitch hard enough I'll get your shit taken down but everyone's shit out of luck lol XD"? If this is true you better start fucking watching me and everyone else here.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Yup, I'm definitely going to crawl in a dark corner, weep openly and hope that tomorrow will be a better day  Damn I feel sick to my stomach....


Deep breath, I'm not mad. =)



Hermie said:


> Yeah, because banning people who are helping spread info on stolen art is REALLY helping. Just shut the fuck up and quietly leave the fandom.


I don't ban people who spread info on stolen art. I do, however, ban people who post rumor as facts, spread misinformation or try to make the situation worse. I welcome legitimate concerns.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Oddly, the few times I stated "I don't know, but I'll find out for you" everyone attacked me over it. =P


That would be because those times were times we expected an answer because they had to do with the terms of the sale and FurAffinity's future in IMVU's hands, which by all accounts you should be very familiar with. In this case, we're talking IMVU policy. While one would expect that you'd spent the past two months familiarizing yourself with it and any necessary changes to it, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one because it's obvious you were caught unprepared for even basic questions.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I don't ban people who spread info on stolen art. I do, however, ban people who post rumor as facts, spread misinformation or try to make the situation worse. I welcome legitimate concerns.



Rowe's were legitimate. You just had a bone to pick with him and didn't appreciate him exposing you. RedSavage, Runefox, me, Smelge, and countless others have done the same thing for months with a viciousness far worse than Rowe.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Oddly, the few times I stated "I don't know, but I'll find out for you" everyone attacked me over it. =P



Because some of those things were pretty major and important things that should have been a major part of negotiations prior to selling your site. People attacked you because you apparently hadn't taken the time to actually familiarise yourself with important parts of the sale.



TheArchiver said:


> Smelge



Excuse me, I'm taking no credit here. apart from today, I've been in this thread once. Namecheck the real heroes.


----------



## Hermie (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I do, however, ban people who post screenshots and facts that make me and this deal look bad.



Fixed that for you.


----------



## Draconas (Mar 24, 2015)

Someone linked one of your tweets that you deleted
And you personally perma-banned him from FAF and FA, and IP banned him, AND wiped every SINGLE fucking comment he ever wrote on the site, AND locked his shouts.

OVER A FUCKING TWEET THAT YOU WROTE.


Thought I should just point that out


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

Draconas said:


> Someone linked one of your tweets that you deleted
> And you personally perma-banned him from FAF and FA, and IP banned him, AND wiped every SINGLE fucking comment he ever wrote on the site, AND locked his shouts.
> 
> OVER A FUCKING TWEET THAT YOU WROTE.
> ...



[Banned for this post]


----------



## MoonRiverz (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> That's solely to verify age, nothing more. *I've been sending some users links to their art on the marketplace to help them identify what needs to be removed.*



Just an FYI, even if an AP user finds the link to an AP product and sends that to a non AP user, the non AP user cannot view the product or the page. All they will have to go on is your word and if you also provide a screen shot of the actual product page for them. No one, whatsoever, who is NOT AP cannot see anything AP in the catalog, store, game, ect, even if they have a direct link, they will get a blank page and told they must log in, and without AP next to your name you cannot see anything.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonRiverz said:


> Just an FYI, even if an AP user finds the link to an AP product and sends that to a non AP user, the non AP user cannot view the product or the page. All they will have to go on is your word and if you also provide a screen shot of the actual product page for them. No one, whatsoever, who is NOT AP cannot see anything AP in the catalog, store, game, ect, even if they have a direct link, they will get a blank page and told they must log in, and without AP next to your name you cannot see anything.



Your move, Piche...


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonRiverz said:


> Just an FYI, even if an AP user finds the link to an AP product and sends that to a non AP user, the non AP user cannot view the product or the page. All they will have to go on is your word and if you also provide a screen shot of the actual product page for them. No one, whatsoever, who is NOT AP cannot see anything AP in the catalog, store, game, ect, even if they have a direct link, they will get a blank page and told they must log in, and without AP next to your name you cannot see anything.



I find this beautiful.

Dragoneer has been helping people for days by doing something that can't in any way help unless the artist buys access. That's it guys, it's all been completely pointless. This is it, nothing we can say or do can beat this level of terrible.

Seriously, go home. It's over.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> For a guy who frequents the forums you're not very bright are you? There are people leaving because of the theft, it's obvious they and you don't understand how the internet works, if you put something up, it could get stolen and secretly put up elsewhere. Now, there are ways to take stuff down from IMVU, and since it is known, people can do that. (kinda reminds me of some losers from DA actually, who just posted whatever the hell they found interesting, regardless of whose it was)
> 
> If you weren't born yesterday perhaps you'd actually have some sense in that tiny head of yours, calling me a white knight, brown noser, and/or Dragoneer alt shows that you clearly do not.
> 
> ...



I understand you are a whiteknight but you didn't need to insult people :/


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Dragoneer has been helping people for days by doing something that can't in any way help unless the artist buys access.


He's a Best Buy blueshirt selling the protection plan to the manufacturer.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> He's a Best Buy blueshirt selling the protection plan to the manufacturer.



At least in the case of the Best Buy blueshirt, they don't have a choice and don't force anything on you. (I know from experience)


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

at least a user name Fleshy have been much more of a help from IMVU's side who are do actually want to help us


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

*IMVU Profiteering!*

Alright! 
To start, why is everyone going after Pheagle?  Your personal opinions and beliefs about one anotherâ€™s motivations seriously doesnâ€™t further the conversation.  Take it easy, right?  Try to remember the reason weâ€™re here. 

Now, since there seems to be some minor confusion about who is profiting from what, Iâ€™d like to chime in. 

By my eye, I see IMVU profiting from infringing material in three distinct ways.
First off, by forcing users to use IMVU credits, they are getting same advantages youâ€™d expect of any such system; they are selling fake money for real money, and people abandon fake money all the time.  This would exist regardless of whether or not IMVU hosted a vast array of pilfered art.  The stolen content simply increases the flow of credits, which then increases the profits of IMVU.

Next you have the obvious way, and the one that is most troubling to everyone around.  IMVU presumably takes a portion of each transaction as profit; after all, whatâ€™s the point of hosting a thriving market if you arenâ€™t getting a little bit of the action as tribute? 

Then you have the icing on the cake of the contemptuous monstrosity, the step so devilishly clever that I honestly think it is pure happenstance: in order to file a DMCA notice on an adult work, one must â€œproveâ€ their age by paying IMVU.  I truly donâ€™t imagine this was done so much as to profit directly from concerned artists; however, it is hard to argue that it doesnâ€™t create a fine disincentive for people to chase down infringing users. 

Now, the first two have curious details that are worth discussing; however, the first isnâ€™t really doesnâ€™t apply to this topic, so Iâ€™m going to hold that off for a follow up post.

The system that IMVU has put into place to screen out offending material is structured in such a way that I have trouble believing that it was put into place in good faith.  By my understanding â€“ though to be clear, I have not used it myself â€“ the peer review system works as such: once a user submits content, it is viewed by users willing to act as screeners for infringing material.  The screener has two options: Yes/Approve and No/Reject.  Regardless of selection, the feedback earns the user some odd amount of IMVU credits.  This system is designed in such a way that the incentives are not aligned to reward screeners for being thorough; instead, the system seems geared toward acting as a kangaroo court of approval, where the screeners who vote swiftest and the most often gain the greatest reward regardless of the submissions merits.  It also provides just enough protection when paired with DMCA compliance that IMVU can claim Safe Harbor protections. 

Now, to be fair to IMVU (read: to play devilâ€™s advocate), there is a habit of developers running systems that do not actually incentivize the desired behavior; said simply, people are just really, really bad at devising systems are achieve the desired effect while being resistant to abuse and exploitation.  Isnâ€™t it then possible that IMVU falls into this category?  Absolutely!  Cockup before malic, thatâ€™s my philosophy!

Except that the way that IMVU is designed, an artist must _pay_ IMVU for the right to screen for stolen content; and the sight is simply riddled with stolen artwork to the extent that it is difficult to believe that a good faith effort is being made at policing the problem.  In addition, the fact that IMVU is profiting by each sale of stolen content _and_ by forcing its proprietary currency in transactions makes a fairly compelling argument that IMVU has good reason to, at a bare minimum, not correct the poorly implemented peer review system.  Again, that is giving IMVU the benefit of the doubt and assuming the peer review system was implemented in good faith.

If it wasnâ€™t obvious before, I shall confess now: I am not a copyright law expert.  It simply isnâ€™t in my repertoire, so if I should be wrong on any point then I kindly ask to be correct.  However, by my admittedly rudimentary understanding, I feel as though a competent and well-funded law firm could argue that IMVU ought not qualify for Safe Harbor protections.  Then again, itâ€™d be a profoundly expensive endeavor with the odds of success not being terribly great; there is simply too much content from too many users created by too many artists to easily sort it all, and that is before you even get to the point of deciding which artists want to attach their legal name to furry porn.  To me, it feels as though IMVU is just a prettied up variation of the same case that Viacom brought against YouTube a while back; the siteâ€™s protections were laughably weak against infringement, while simultaneously YouTube was profiting from infringing material.  This is a bit more complicated, but to me it is the same general theme.


Next, I want to touch upon the notion that IMVU credits cannot be turned back into real currency; this is a claim I have encountered a few different places, and one that I believe to be false.  There are two manners in which a user may theoretically turn IMVU credits into cash. 

Method #1)

1) Letâ€™s say that Iâ€™m paid in IMVU Credit for something I â€œacquiredâ€ elsewhere on the Internet (Acquired is to Stole is as Partnership is to Acquisition; it simply sounds a whole lot better, even if it isnâ€™t exactly the most accurate description.)


2) I look for a buyer of IMVU credits willing to buy directly from users; Bitcoins would be ideal, but Iâ€™d probably lose a significant margin just because most people feel BTC are a pain. (Given 3-C below, Iâ€™d wager I could just sell via Paypall; I honestly donâ€™t think anyone is cracking down on this, so the disincentive is tiny and my profit margins may increase significantly.)


3-A) I sell the Bitcoins locally

3-B) I spend the Bitcoins on goods with retailers that take BTC as payment (I could use the goods, or sell them on eBay/Craigslist/Whatever for cash. Remember, the goods arenâ€™t stolen; any gains from here are successfully laundered, and even the IRS isnâ€™t any the wiser. True, it isnâ€™t perfect anonymity, but no one devotes five thousand bucks solving a five dollar crime, rights?)

3-C) I sell BTC and have the proceeds wired to Paypal/My Bank/Whatever â€“ it sacrifices anonymity, but to be honest, no one is chasing these people anywhere near this far.


Method #2

Step 1) I can simply buy things in the IMVU store.

Step 2) I sell said items on eBay, Craigslist, or whatever market I fancy.

Honestly, if I can figure this out on the spot, there has to be people who have done this, simplified it, and make it work for themselves quite well. Or maybe Iâ€™m quite the thief and just never had an opportunity to realize it?  Odds are, Iâ€™m wildly overcomplicating things given the fact that so little attention is being paid and, so far as I can tell, the repercussions of getting caught is having my account closed; it may cost me any credits sitting in my account at the time, but itâ€™s all free money and I can start again immediately under a new account!


Now, if there is another way IMVU is profiting that I did not mention; or, for that matter, if I am misstating a fact, I kindly request I be corrected.  Iâ€™m rather fatigued at the moment, so forgive any typos I missed or foolish assumptions I made; I wanted to get this posted before I got some sleep.  (What can I say?  Iâ€™m eager to join this conversation!)


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Deep breath, I'm not mad. =)
> 
> 
> I don't ban people who spread info on stolen art. I do, however, ban people who post rumor as facts, spread misinformation or try to make the situation worse. I welcome legitimate concerns.



Well, I do hope you keep that in mind; I've a few concerns that I'm just starting to get into.  If I should be wrong, it is that I am wrong in good faith; I welcome corrections as they come.

Kudos to whoever fixed the FAF Registration Verification doowicky by the way; I've been going nuts waiting to get in on this conversation.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

I just gonna hope you not only linked to the submission Neer but also provided screenshots due to yes "AP can only view AP links"
we also hope for those aritst YOU DID HELP also providing them with the template we have been given by Fleshy an IMVU user to make the DMCA process much more smoothly



			
				Fleshy said:
			
		

> Hey there! I'm an IMVU user and wanted to give you guys the same form I use for DMCA's. If done correctly, it should work without any problems, even if you are a non-US citizen. I have this posted in a few art groups on IMVU, to make it easy for others to get stolen content removed (products, textures, homepage layouts, display pictures, etc). I can't post it on the IMVU forums because of the rule about legal discussion, and I was gonna post it on the FA forums, but I haven't received a confirmation email yet. e.e
> 
> This form is almost identical to the one provided by IMVU (I simply broke it down and explained the different parts for you all). You can find the original one here: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/info/takedownnoticehtm.htm
> 
> ...



if you are helping, please actually go the full process than just doing half ass:
Provide a link
Provide a screenshot also if its AP so the user themselves CAN actually view and confirm it
and provide a template to ease the DMCA process.

Remember: The Boss is watching you, you have to make us content or its your livelihood on the line. Welcome to the life of "Trimming the Fat" you are now bound to make sure things are running smoothly ALWAYS. At my job we experienced this for 8 years so I know to make sure not only our customers are fine, but also the employees cause pissed off employees lead to bad service and bad service leads to angry customers, and angry customers leave bad reviews and bad reviews can ultimately shut down a business cause "its not viable"


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

Careful about double posting. Also, I would like to ask that next time could you be a bit more concise, please? Your post is somewhat unorganized though I have read it through.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

*Re: IMVU Profiteering!*



FYIAD said:


> (wall of text)


I don't... What? I'm scratching my head reading this trying to figure out what the thrust of the post was, but it's mostly just fluff. The part I did understand was about reselling Credits for BTC, but... Well, that's not officially supported (IMVU would prefer you purchase additional funbux through them), and the money stays with IMVU either way.


----------



## Dragoneer (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonRiverz said:


> Just an FYI, even if an AP user finds the link to an AP product and sends that to a non AP user, the non AP user cannot view the product or the page. All they will have to go on is your word and if you also provide a screen shot of the actual product page for them. No one, whatsoever, who is NOT AP cannot see anything AP in the catalog, store, game, ect, even if they have a direct link, they will get a blank page and told they must log in, and without AP next to your name you cannot see anything.


They just have to include the links I give them in the DMCA (which you send by email). They don't have to have AP access.

As I said, I'm working with them and can provide them with screenshots/proof. I am helping the artists directly. You don't need an IMVU account to send a DMCA.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Can we get an example (like, a mockup) of something you would pass onto the artist / to IMVU as a means of visualizing exactly what you mean by helping?

Like, guide us through the process of getting something AP taken down. That would be beneficial both to artists and to people trying to wrap their head around the process.


----------



## MoonRiverz (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> They just have to include the links I give them in the DMCA (which you send by email). They don't have to have AP access.
> 
> As I said, I'm working with them and can provide them with screenshots/proof. I am helping the artists directly. You don't need an IMVU account to send a DMCA.



You are correct, to file a DMCA they need the PID (product ID number) which is located at the end of the link you are sending them. I commented soley to inform you that UNLESS you are also sending them a screenshot as well, they cannot verify that the link you gave them is indeed their intellectual property. So they would/could be filing a false claim, if you were wrong in your linking. You see?


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Sorry for sending messages like a creeper, my first account was never sent a confirmation email so went ahead and made a new one just now.

I just want to clarify one thing:

The correct email address for the DMCA agent is: dmca_agent@imvu.com. The old address was dmca@imvu, which for some reason is still listed on the IMVU TOS page after three years. It's no biggie, if you do send it to the old address, they will simply give you an automatic message with the new address.

Staff post about it here: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=441457

I've been filing DMCA notices with IMVU since 2012 with no issues. Non-US residents can file a DMCA takedown notice just as easily. If, for some reason, you make an error in the notice (such as using a fake name or address) you will be asked to send a snail-mail instead, which will cost postage. But out of all the people I've helped these past few years, not a single one had to do that.

If you're looking for stolen art, the "Wall Hangings" and "Picture Frames" categories in the IMVU catalog is the first place you should look with the keyword "furry." I've taken screenshots of these two categories with the AP (Access Pass) filter on, for those of you from FA who do not have an AP. 


If you recognize anything, please contact the artist. If they wish to file a DMCA Takedown Notice, they will need the product link which I can provide (you could also ask Dragoneer or any IMVU user with an AP), as well as a larger screenshot of the poster itself in case they aren't sure it's their work. 


Picture Frames (32 pages): http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI


Wall Hangings (22 pages): http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> Sorry for sending messages like a creeper, my first account was never sent a confirmation email so went ahead and made a new one just now.
> 
> I just want to clarify one thing:
> 
> ...


Thanks again for helping to resolve this issue


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonRiverz said:


> You are correct, to file a DMCA they need the PID (product ID number) which is located at the end of the link you are sending them. I commented soley to inform you that UNLESS you are also sending them a screenshot as well, they cannot verify that the link you gave them is indeed their intellectual property. So they would/could be filing a false claim, if you were wrong in your linking. You see?



Hopefully the DMCA agent will compare the two links (original and stolen) before processing the takedown. If she doesn't, that could result in someone being banned unfairly, and probably even worse consequences. Those who want to help out and provide the product links, should be very careful and take a screenshot of the entire product page (also showing the browser url) as well as load the product in the IMVU client to double check that the icon and actual product match.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

The disturbing thing to me is that we've got people saying that they've gone through the process and it takes months and requires all kinds of back and forth regarding facts and proof of ownership, and we've got people saying that it's quick and easy. Have any images been successfully taken down in the days since the IMVU purchase was revealed?


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Deep breath, I'm not mad. =)
> 
> 
> I don't ban people who spread info on stolen art. I do, however, ban people who post rumor as facts, spread misinformation or try to make the situation worse. I welcome legitimate concerns.



Why did you ban Rowe then? I saw people in this forum asking why and someone asked you on twitter and you ignored them. He told me you removed all of his comments and closed his shouts so no one could post on his page
What rumors was he posting? I want to hear both sides of this


----------



## PnKnG (Mar 24, 2015)

I have just been noted of this



> Sorry for the random note, but I was on IMVU and found that somebody had made a fur of your character Violet as a custom for another member of the IMVU community. Here's a few links for you:
> 
> http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=57868728
> http://gyazo.com/81d186ed78a9936b0727a8de07fe91e8
> ...



Violet is my character that I created. I have commissioned art of her by numerous people, partly since I'm not an artist myself.

In this case can I file a DMCA or otherwise get that taken down? since I was never asked for permission. and should I link my gallery in that DMCA or the gallery of the artist that has drawn it for me?


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

PnKnG said:


> I have just been noted of this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


USUALLY the system would require the artist to do it due to the information needed
even if its your character, its was still drawn by someone else who have THEIR signature on it.


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Thanks again for helping to resolve this issue



Thank you, as well. It was annoying not being able to participate in this thread lol.

I hope this is a wake up call for IMVU. There needs to be a better system in place to prevent and take down stolen work. We do have a Peer Review system to screen products, but there is no option to fail for Copyright Infringement. It wouldn't be possible to add it, either, since we have no idea if the person submitting the artwork is the artist or not, or has permission to do so. The forums wont allow anyone to ask for advice on filing a DMCA takedown notice, because there is the risk of someone giving wrong information or bad advice. It really seems like they don't care. Not to mention, a massive number of disappointed IMVU users built their own website to sell art, since IMVU would do nothing about theft. http://www.gasrforum.com/


----------



## PnKnG (Mar 24, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> USUALLY the system would require the artist to do it due to the information needed
> even if its your character, its was still drawn by someone else who have THEIR signature on it.



problem is "usually" doesn't helps me. plus if you check my gallery there is a number of artists that have drawn my character with those clothes. so who should file the complained then?


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Your character counts as your Intellectual Property. I don't think a DMCA will take it down, I've heard people discussing it but never actually take action.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 24, 2015)

After reading through the last few pages, I must remind ALL users that we do not accept uncivil behaviour on the forums. I know debates (especially ones such as these) can get heated, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. I've seen too many people call each other names and deliberately try to get under another person's skin to try and get them to react. This is unacceptable.

I have gone through and deleted the offending posts and any replies to them. Infracs/Warnings have also been handed out. From now on I ask that people try to cool down and think about what you're saying and if what you are going to ask is crass or malicious in any way, take a minute and leave it out.

That's all I wanted to say. Consider this a warning to eveyone.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> Thank you, as well. It was annoying not being able to participate in this thread lol.
> 
> I hope this is a wake up call for IMVU. There needs to be a better system in place to prevent and take down stolen work. We do have a Peer Review system to screen products, but there is no option to fail for Copyright Infringement. It wouldn't be possible to add it, either, since we have no idea if the person submitting the artwork is the artist or not, or has permission to do so. The forums wont allow anyone to ask for advice on filing a DMCA takedown notice, because there is the risk of someone giving wrong information or bad advice. It really seems like they don't care. Not to mention, a massive number of disappointed IMVU users built their own website to sell art, since IMVU would do nothing about theft. http://www.gasrforum.com/


Some of use could of tell that the reason you guys are helping us to resolve this is to improve things for you due to our status of a newly acquired site being part of the IMVU "family". IMVU will have to do things to make us trust them and be fine enough to have them as owners of our site, which in turn they would have to do things to improve their site overall. If we are in a sense being used as a bigger hammer to fix a problem, then thats fine as in the end it benefits everyone.
-IMVU users may get an improved system peer review on things being submitted to the "catty"
-FA gets stuff they dont want on that site removed


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> That's all I wanted to say. Consider this a warning to eveyone.



So when is an admin going to deal with the abuse I received on my profile?


----------



## 1000bluntz (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> If I was after money I'd have gone after that. The agreement we made was to invest IN the comment, and make improvements to the site.





Dragoneer said:


> I wish I had a mountain of cash. I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.



Half-assed damage control. 6/10 at best. I guess you're doing something right though, you've got at least one or two people in this thread mindlessly defending you.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> So when is an admin going to deal with the abuse I received on my profile?


Got it.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> After reading through the last few pages, I must remind ALL users that we do not accept uncivil behaviour on the forums. I know debates (especially ones such as these) can get heated, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. I've seen too many people call each other names and deliberately try to get under another person's skin to try and get them to react. This is unacceptable.
> 
> I have gone through and deleted the offending posts and any replies to them. Infracs/Warnings have also been handed out. From now on I ask that people try to cool down and think about what you're saying and if what you are going to ask is crass or malicious in any way, take a minute and leave it out.
> 
> That's all I wanted to say. Consider this a warning to eveyone.



So Rowe's are still there. if not for those why did he get banned?


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> The disturbing thing to me is that we've got people saying that they've gone through the process and it takes months and requires all kinds of back and forth regarding facts and proof of ownership, and we've got people saying that it's quick and easy. Have any images been successfully taken down in the days since the IMVU purchase was revealed?



Not once has the DMCA agent asked me for proof. I send one email, and the DMCA agent sends one back. That's it. This is her typical response:

"Hello, In compliance with the IMVU policy relating to claims of copyright or trademark infringement, which is meant to adopt and implement the procedures specified under the DMCA and US copyright law, IMVU has taken the following actions regarding your complaint:
1) The offending items have been placed on DMCA hold and we have disabled access to or removed them from the IMVU catalog.
2) Notified the person who created and/or posted the offending items.
For more information on IMVUâ€™s DMCA/Trademark policies, or for instructions on reporting future violations, please visit our DMCA page.
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/web_info.php?section=Info&topic=terms_of_service
Please note that this is our ordinary response upon receipt of a formal DMCA takedown notice, in compliance with the DMCA and our policy.  We express no view with regard to the merits of your claim(s) of infringement or with regard to any other matters you may have communicated to us.  We reserve all rights and defenses.


Regards,


DMCA Agent
IMVU, Inc."

For me, it only takes a few days (sometimes a couple weeks) to get the item taken down. Now, if hundreds of FA artists file DMCAs at once, my words wont matter since the DMCA agent will likely get backed up, resulting in longer response times.


----------



## rjbartrop (Mar 24, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> I get that feeling too. I don't think IMVU would be dumb enough not to have an escape plan if things go pear shaped. I think IMVU may be too confident that furs will switch, and when they realize furs aren't jumping over, they'll resell or just dump FA like yesterday's garbage. Either way, things are not looking good for the future of the site. Though if Linden Labs could buy FA...that might work nicely.



The big sticking point to that remains that Linden Labs has to actually want to buy it.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

PnKnG said:


> problem is "usually" doesn't helps me. plus if you check my gallery there is a number of artists that have drawn my character with those clothes. so who should file the complained then?


True, and now you also provide a problem

Art we can easily remove

people making "suits" of people's characters are completely a new one, how do you really deal with that one?

Artist can easily provide drawings of their own character to prove that the "suit" is being based off of their character.

Would a Ref sheet work?



rjbartrop said:


> The big sticking point to that remains that Linden Labs has to actually want to buy it.


:V they dont need FA, they would gladly actually JUST pay for advertising


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

*Re: IMVU Profiteering!*



Runefox said:


> I don't... What? I'm scratching my head reading this trying to figure out what the thrust of the post was, but it's mostly just fluff. The part I did understand was about reselling Credits for BTC, but... Well, that's not officially supported (IMVU would prefer you purchase additional funbux through them), and the money stays with IMVU either way.



I can edit for brevity at a later point.  I wanted to get something up during the day when something productive might result rather than it get buried in the few pages of users sniping at each other that crop up in the evening.

The talk of bitcoins and methods of cashing out IMVU credits was to prove the point that it is possible.  There had been people stating outright that one cannot turn IMVU credits back into cash, with the implication being that if the fraud only netted faux currency then it was less of a problem.  Anyone willing to put the least amount of work into it can convert one currency to the other and back again.  In short, I was trying to show that people get real money, not just the equivalent of prize tickets at carnival.  

I suppose I couldâ€™ve tracked back to directly quote the people who made this claim, but then the wall of text would be larger still.  Iâ€™ll endeavor to be more concise next time through; I get wordy when Iâ€™m in a hurry and exhausted. X.x  Sorry about that.


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

IMVU allows creators to sell their credits to different registered resellers for cash. 
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=296713 
Some make an actual living by it.


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## Zepher_Tensho (Mar 24, 2015)

Wow this thread exploded. Half the new posts are flaming, like holy shit.







Also mfw 'Neer talks more about why Rowe was banned but people like a certain eagle get away with calling everyone retard and idiot.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Wow this thread exploded. Half the new posts are flaming, like holy shit.
> 
> [meme]
> 
> ...


...if this was facepunch you would of been banned for memes and images
please we need to discuss stuff here, so cut it low on the images, or at least make em smaller that they dont take up space



fleshy2 said:


> IMVU allows creators to sell their credits to different registered resellers for cash.
> http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=296713
> Some make an actual living by it.


hmm some of these I remember being around when I use to be on IMVU.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> I get that feeling too. I don't think IMVU would be dumb enough not to have an escape plan if things go pear shaped. I think IMVU may be too confident that furs will switch, and when they realize furs aren't jumping over, they'll resell or just dump FA like yesterday's garbage. Either way, things are not looking good for the future of the site. Though if Linden Labs could buy FA...that might work nicely.



Actually, my hope at this point is that if/when IMVU realizes that they bit off more than they can chew that there will be a chance for a group of investors willing to step in and purchase FA back.  Iâ€™d merrily dig deep for a tiny bit of FA; more than that, I know others have much deeper pockets than mine and were already organized to the point that they made Dragoneer an offer prior to the IMVU deal being finalized.  I trust them a great deal more than I trust FA; and I trust a structure that spreads the power over enough people so that no one person can jerk the wheel and wreck the ship without the slightest bit of warning.

Itâ€™s probably a vain, silly hope, but itâ€™s all Iâ€™ve got to run on at the moment.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Also mfw 'Neer talks more about why Rowe was banned but people like a certain eagle get away with calling everyone retard and idiot.



Not really. Rowe was on the wrong side, so deserved to get banned. Eagleguy is a defender of the purple one, so he's good.

I've been reading up on DMCA. You can submit them from outside the US, but the company doesn't have to listen. From there the only step to take is legal action from within the US, which tey know nobody would ever do, so yes, the whole world can submit DMCA notifications. Doesn't mean they'll actualy get sorted.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Not really. Rowe was on the wrong side, so deserved to get banned. Eagleguy is a defender of the purple one, so he's good.
> 
> I've been reading up on DMCA. You can submit them from outside the US, but the company doesn't have to listen. From there the only step to take is legal action from within the US, which tey know nobody would ever do, so yes, the whole world can submit DMCA notifications. Doesn't mean they'll actualy get sorted.



But what did he do? No one is saying what he did that was so bad


----------



## trapa (Mar 24, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Actually, my hope at this point is that if/when IMVU realizes that they bit off more than they can chew that there will be a chance for a group of investors willing to step in and purchase FA back.  Iâ€™d merrily dig deep for a tiny bit of FA; more than that, I know others have much deeper pockets than mine and were already organized to the point that they made Dragoneer an offer prior to the IMVU deal being finalized.  I trust them a great deal more than I trust FA; and I trust a structure that spreads the power over enough people so that no one person can jerk the wheel and wreck the ship without the slightest bit of warning.
> 
> Itâ€™s probably a vain, silly hope, but itâ€™s all Iâ€™ve got to run on at the moment.




I would be willing to do this, Have been trying to get in touch with IMVU to make them aware of the offer. Looking for help with that introduction if anyone can.


----------



## Kalmor (Mar 24, 2015)

Zepher_Tensho said:


> Also mfw 'Neer talks more about why Rowe was banned but people like a certain eagle get away with calling everyone retard and idiot.


Got away with it? I take it you didn't see my last post or check back for the offending posts.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.
> 
> I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.



Thats the first Time i respect you for that one Thing, that you try and help to get the stolen Images down. If thats true and you continue like that it would be nice !! Since alot artists cant even see there stolen works sadly.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Got away with it? I take it you didn't see my last post or check back for the offending posts.



I think hes saying that eagle said worse things before it was cleared at least that is what I saw him do but he didnt get banend for it


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Blitza said:


> Thats the first Time i respect you for that one Thing, that you try and help to get the stolen Images down. If thats true and you continue like that it would be nice !! Since alot artists cant even see there stolen works sadly.



No, no respect. It's stupid and wasteful. If he's being paid to work now he's essentially browsing rather than doing stuff thats important for the site. Hosting thumbnails of all the relevant searches with the link for use in case of a DMCA would take very little time and allow people to look for themselves. There's a simple solution, but yet again the 'waste a fuckton of time' solution is being used.

Surely there's someone on staff able to write a script or code a simple website?


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 24, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Got away with it? I take it you didn't see my last post or check back for the offending posts.



You aren't Dragoneer though. I'm sure Zepher was referring to him.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> IMVU allows creators to sell their credits to different registered resellers for cash.
> http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=296713
> Some make an actual living by it.



This is actually rather confusing, because...



			
				Linked URL / Registered Resellers said:
			
		

> The Registered Resellers Directory is not affiliated with or endorsed by IMVU.



And yet...



			
				Linked URL / Registered Resellers said:
			
		

> All listed resellers are recognized by IMVU as Registered Resellers, and have agreed to abide by the IMVU TOS and all IMVU rules specific to resellers.



But then...



			
				IMVU ToS said:
			
		

> You are hereby prohibited from reselling or distributing Credits without the expressed written consent of IMVU.
> 
> (no mention of official resellers or the word "resell" besides this)



So... Whuh?


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> This is actually rather confusing, because...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dunno, but it's allowed and has been for years. Here's another thread with more info: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=443927

The OP disabled her account because she got tired of IMVU's shit, but everything she posted is true and you can even see mods posting there as well.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> No, no respect. It's stupid and wasteful. If he's being paid to work now he's essentially browsing rather than doing stuff thats important for the site. Hosting thumbnails of all the relevant searches with the link for use in case of a DMCA would take very little time and allow people to look for themselves. There's a simple solution, but yet again the 'waste a fuckton of time' solution is being used.
> 
> Surely there's someone on staff able to write a script or code a simple website?



Well what should i say i am still very made that Neer did sell US to IMVU and didnt ask or tell us sooner, also i am pretty mad that art from alot Friends and me is there and nothing happens.

We can talk all day about it but in short what can we or he do ??

I know from about 20 artists i know there about to leave FA like Onta, when Onta did wrote that Journal the others jump the ship too.

Means sooner or later if this continue FA is dead or even more worse the Furry Comunity will be broken since 90% whas build up on FA.

I am sorry for my bad english i try my best to bring over my Frustration about this all, i am 13 years in the comunity and spend really really much Money like others on FA artists and now some like that happen......


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm done with the thread, it's getting my blood boiled, this is not healthy for me to get so upset


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 24, 2015)

sethtriggs said:


> Pool the talent in these forums and make the tools to make it easy for artists to switch to other sites. That is concrete action that will mete out the punishment you seek.
> 
> -Seth



Don't want to say anything just yet because I'm still early in development, but after our purchase offer was declined I began work on a new project to make things easier for those who wish to use multiple sites.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> I dunno, but it's allowed and has been for years. Here's another thread with more info: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=443927
> 
> The OP disabled her account because she got tired of IMVU's shit, but everything she posted is true and you can even see mods posting there as well.



This is interesting, because it essentially means that IMVU isn't even respecting their own ToS anymore. Assuming that the ToS link on the website is accurate (and if not, that's another red flag). Since their own ToS doesn't explain how to become a "registered reseller", do you have any information on the topic? Have you ever been involved with a reseller?



Silvershock said:


> Don't want to say anything just yet because I'm still early in development, but after our purchase offer was declined I began work on a new project to make things easier for those who wish to use multiple sites.



This is also interesting. Is this yet another site (presumably with blackjack and hookers), or is this a utility that will allow for easier cross-site posting and networking?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

Y'all are too much, man
This is just ridiculous


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

The website for the directory isn't created by IMVU, but the resellers do have permission to sell credits. I think that's what got you confused. Ordinary users are not allowed to sell credits to other users (hey guys, who wants 50k, gimme your paypal), they can only sell to registered resellers. There used to be an application, but I think IMVU no longer accepts any more.

Edited to add: Many of my friends and acquaintances sell their credits to registered resellers, and anyone who is smart will buy credits from resellers since it's half the price of what IMVU offers in the credit store, and it supports creators.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.

Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.

Are you scared of him or something?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

Apathy and learned helplessness are different from fear


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.
> 
> Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.
> 
> Are you scared of him or something?



Hey, at least he showed up and explained the situation. People really are blowing this way out of proportion.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> The website for the directory isn't created by IMVU, but the resellers do have permission to sell credits. I think that's what got you confused. Ordinary users are not allowed to sell credits (hey guys, who wants 50k, gimme your paypal), only registered resellers. There used to be an application, but I think IMVU no longer accepts any more.


Well that's the problem. Assuming these sites HAVE the written permission by IMVU that their ToS requires to resell credits, *users* still are technically bound by the ToS and are thus not allowed to sell their credits on. There's nothing excepting that in the ToS except written permission, which I'm sure most users don't have. So either they forgot to update their ToS or this flew under legal and upper management's radar.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

trapa said:


> I would be willing to do this, Have been trying to get in touch with IMVU to make them aware of the offer. Looking for help with that introduction if anyone can.



Truth be told, I don't know offhand who all was involved with that offer and who was lead.  That's the person I'd contact; the business is between him, his group, and IMVU.  However, if they are interested but the pooled funds aren't sufficient, I'm hoping things might be opened up further so that others may have a chance.  It is my understanding that they intended to keep it within a group of reputable folk rather than selling things off to the highest bidder.  I respect that, though I'm sure that disqualifies me; I'm unknown and that's the way I am most comfortable.  

If they weren't interested, then crowdfunding might be an option but I haven't a clue how that would leave things.  I am not keen on the idea of throwing money into a donation just so one other person can own FA and I'd like things to be structured so there aren't a few hundred owners.  Power should be dilute, but not to the point that decisions can't be made because we can't get everyone's attention.

Then again, I'd prefer a thousand owners of FA than IMVU ownership; I'll take the devils I know over the devil I don't.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.
> 
> Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.
> 
> Are you scared of him or something?



With words i believe you cant save FA anymore, is this all about Neer or about saving FA before it dies ??

Were all are made at him and for my comment i had hope he meant it true that he helps to find stolen artwork but in really ist pretty useless and is just there that he Shows himself good and helpfully what he isnt..........


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Hey, at least he showed up and explained the situation. People really are blowing this way out of proportion.


"Im working on it, I assure everything is kays" is not explaining things.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.
> 
> Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.
> 
> Are you scared of him or something?



Yelling at him to his face only makes him ignore you or worse. What's more, yelling at him only makes you look like a rabid dog, and that lends credibility to his dismissal of our concerns. The best approach (and this really applies to any situation) is to directly challenge what he says. Ask for proof to back up his claims. Ask for examples. Ask for anything that will prove him right. If it's there, then we were wrong anyway. If it's not and he ignores us, then that gives us the upper hand.

In this case, he chose not to provide that.


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Well that's the problem. Assuming these sites HAVE the written permission by IMVU that their ToS requires to resell credits, *users* still are technically bound by the ToS and are thus not allowed to sell their credits on. There's nothing excepting that in the ToS except written permission, which I'm sure most users don't have. So either they forgot to update their ToS or this flew under legal and upper management's radar.



I think you don't understand the whole reseller thing lol. The only way resellers get the credits to begin with are from creators selling it to them. Then the resellers sell the credits to users. I believe SL has something similar, Anshe has her own reseller website and sells both IMVU credits and lindens (whatever their currency is called).


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 24, 2015)

Wow i just got back from work and all hell breaks loose. Just looked through at what happened after i last commented a few hours ago.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> I think you don't understand the whole reseller thing lol. The only way resellers get the credits to begin with are from creators selling it to them. Then the resellers sell the credits to users. I believe SL has something similar, Anshe has her own reseller website and sells both IMVU credits and lindens (whatever their currency is called).



No, I understand, I'm just pointing out that the whole thing violates the ToS as it's written. Even if the resellers had IMVU's written permission (which is the only condition under which credits are allowed to be resold according to the ToS), users would not. So the whole thing really doesn't make any sense. If they're allowing it, they really should have updated their ToS back in 2012. If they aren't, then they're simply not enforcing their ToS. Both imply an unacceptable level of laziness (I suppose it was taking too many resources to crack down on IMVU credit resellers and they decided "fuck it").


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

First, what is the point of raging?  Aside from being cathartic, what is there to be gained?  Does FA ownership revert back â€“ and what good does that really do me if it goes back to the person Iâ€™m meant to be raging at? 

Second, in the off chance that Dragoeer maintains some genuine amount of power, Iâ€™d rather he be willing to prevent IMVU from driving FA straight into the ground if/when they realize that theyâ€™ve made a critical error in judgment.  He canâ€™t make the call, but I prefer keeping people with any influence away from the â€œBurn it!  Burn it all to the ground!â€-mentality.

Third, Iâ€™ve got to be honest, Iâ€™d love to have some understanding of how he came to believe this was a good move.  I donâ€™t like assigning motives to people; I donâ€™t believe in good or evil; and rarely ever is someoneâ€™s motivation so simple as pure greed or mere idiocy.  I learn more the more he speaks, whereas throwing verbal Molotovâ€™s in his direction doesnâ€™t exactly yield new information; fun fact: it isn't super effective!  (And yes, Iâ€™m quite aware that Iâ€™ll never have anything approaching a full understanding of how his version of reality so vastly differs from my own; my curiousity remains.)

Fourth, Iâ€™m resigned to the fact that this situation could scarcely be more out of my control than it is now; I also suspect that the situation is pretty much out of his hands, too.  Iâ€™m too tired to be devoting energy to fruitless endeavors.  

So, short of feeling better for prodding at the one who wronged you, what does being upset net you?


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> No, I understand, I'm just pointing out that the whole thing violates the ToS as it's written. Even if the resellers had IMVU's written permission (which is the only condition under which credits are allowed to be resold according to the ToS), users would not. So the whole thing really doesn't make any sense. If they're allowing it, they really should have updated their ToS back in 2012. If they aren't, then they're simply not enforcing their ToS. Both imply an unacceptable level of laziness (I suppose it was taking too many resources to crack down on IMVU credit resellers and they decided "fuck it").



Well, given that they care so little about theft from others, it is rather charming to know that they are similarly blasÃ© when itâ€™s their own pockets being picked.

If I were trying to figure out how this makes sense, I figure itâ€™s a balance of what you said, with them just not wanting to devote any resources to stemming the losses; and, as a motivation for that, this allows for a bit of black market liquidity, it allows the people â€œgeneratingâ€ all that content a reason to keep going at it, all while IMVU still gets a cut on the backend of every sale.

Save money and effort; encourage continued â€œcontent creationâ€ amongst the black market pirates; and still collect a bit of monetary value at the end of the day! What's not to love about that plan, assuming you're IMVU?


----------



## Accountability (Mar 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.



Shouldn't you just be sending these links to someone at IMVU that can just... delete the stuff?? Just sayin'. It's pretty fucking obvious that Blotch is not on IMVU at all, and certainly not with multiple accounts.

If IMVU's only recourse to solving this issue is having you tell artists their art was stolen (which I imagine you are doing on your own volition and not an official part of your "job") so the artists can file a DMCA, then it's pretty fucking clear that *they don't care*.

EDIT: Kalmor is still here? Wow, I guess he has a strange definition of "very near future"...



Kalmor said:


> Hand on heart this is legit and I will personally resign from my post out of my own frustration if nothing happens in the very near future.
> 
> I am super stoked to finally see improvements but I cannot talk about specifics as everything not already mentioned by neer on twitter is still under NDA.


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> No, I understand, I'm just pointing out that the whole thing violates the ToS as it's written. Even if the resellers had IMVU's written permission (which is the only condition under which credits are allowed to be resold according to the ToS), users would not. So the whole thing really doesn't make any sense. If they're allowing it, they really should have updated their ToS back in 2012. If they aren't, then they're simply not enforcing their ToS. Both imply an unacceptable level of laziness (I suppose it was taking too many resources to crack down on IMVU credit resellers and they decided "fuck it").




I am pretty sure you are just misreading the TOS. Creators have been selling credits to resellers for years (some make six figure incomes) and if it violated the IMVU TOS in some way, even the slightest, someone would have heard about it. Users cannot just set up some random website to resell credits, they can only do it through a registered reseller, who has permission. Most resellers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for creators selling them the credits. IMVU cracks down on people making illegal reseller sites and users selling credits to other users. It can only be done through a reseller.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Well, given that they care so little about theft from others, it is rather charming to know that they are similarly blasÃ© when itâ€™s their own pockets being picked.


Charming, yes, but not at all calming. It's further proof that our fears regarding IMVU's interest in policing their store are rather well founded, and that any efforts in the short term to fix that may not extend into the long term.



> Save money and effort; encourage continued â€œcontent creationâ€ amongst the black market pirates; and still collect a bit of monetary value at the end of the day! What's not to love about that plan, assuming you're IMVU?


I suppose as long as the "registered resellers" send back a cut to IMVU when credits are resold, IMVU can't really complain too much, but it's sub-optimal compared to people simply buying more credits from them. Still, I suppose a cheaper solution than the legal fees required to play whack-a-mole with the black market.



fleshy2 said:


> I am pretty sure you are just misreading the TOS. Creators have been selling credits to resellers for years (some make six figure incomes) and if it violated the IMVU TOS in some way, even the slightest, someone would have heard about it. Users cannot just set up some random website to resell credits, they can only do it through a registered reseller, who has permission. Most resellers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for creators selling them the credits. IMVU cracks down on people making illegal reseller sites and users selling credits to other users. It can only be done through a reseller.



Go ahead and read the ToS. There's absolutely no language about official resellers, and the only place the term "resell" even shows up is in reference to explicitly disallowing resale of credits as I quoted earlier. There simply isn't anything in the ToS enabling people to use a reseller or even for resellers to exist without express written consent, so either they're stretching the express written consent part a little far or it's de jure disallowed but de facto allowed.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> I am pretty sure you are just misreading the TOS. Creators have been selling credits to resellers for years (some make six figure incomes) and if it violated the IMVU TOS in some way, even the slightest, someone would have heard about it. Users cannot just set up some random website to resell credits, they can only do it through a registered reseller, who has permission. Most resellers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for creators selling them the credits. IMVU cracks down on people making illegal reseller sites and users selling credits to other users. It can only be done through a reseller.


no they arent, they are just pointing out that IMVU's TOS doesnt actually state the allowance of Resellers despite the fact they do.
in other words "IMVU's ToS havent been updated to state that folks should only get the credits from either them, or one of the registered Resellers". Their ToS still states "do not resell credits". Second Life have a ToS stating reselling is fine from Registered Resellers, they even went further to include a list ON THEIR SITE of verified resellers...just like how they also include a list of viewers they recognized officially to be used to connect to SL.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Charming, yes, but not at all calming. It's further proof that our fears regarding IMVU's interest in policing their store are rather well founded, and that any efforts in the short term to fix that may not extend into the long term.
> 
> 
> I suppose as long as the "registered resellers" send back a cut to IMVU when credits are resold, IMVU can't really complain too much, but it's sub-optimal compared to people simply buying more credits from them. Still, I suppose a cheaper solution than the legal fees required to play whack-a-mole with the black market.
> ...



I feel as though you underestimate how useful having that ability to turn credits back into cash is.  If it werenâ€™t the case, then one could argue that theft was just a means to a silly end: getting enough credits to buy whatever silly thing IMVU sells that their users/players like.  Once you open up the ability to shift credits between accounts, youâ€™ve allowed people to funnel their proceeds.  Making it easier still encourages yet more theft, which brings more new users to IMVU with newly bought IMVU credits to burn on all the new content on sale.  So long as new peopleâ€™s money keeps flowing in to buy the offenderâ€™s offerings, IMVU is making money at a solid pace; if new content wasnâ€™t generated swift enough to keep luring people in, the system might falter.  The black marketâ€™s liquidity is way of baiting in few meat; it is an important feature in their system.

Presumably the people buying credits in bulk on the market are more familiar with the landscape and have already paid their fair share to IMVU.  That's another angle for another day, so far as I'm concerned.


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Charming, yes, but not at all calming. It's further proof that our fears regarding IMVU's interest in policing their store are rather well founded, and that any efforts in the short term to fix that may not extend into the long term.
> 
> 
> I suppose as long as the "registered resellers" send back a cut to IMVU when credits are resold, IMVU can't really complain too much, but it's sub-optimal compared to people simply buying more credits from them. Still, I suppose a cheaper solution than the legal fees required to play whack-a-mole with the black market.
> ...



It says right there, only those with permission from IMVU can resell credits. Resellers have permission. Creators get permission from the reseller. I don't think I can explain it, so I posted a thread here: 
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11286877#11286877
 If I wrongly worded what you said lemme know, or you can post yourself.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

fleshy2 said:


> It says right there, only those with permission from IMVU can resell credits. Resellers have permission. Creators get permission from the reseller. I don't think I can explain it, so I posted a thread here:
> http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules...phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=11286877#11286877
> If I wrongly worded what you said lemme know, or you can post yourself.



I think at this point both of us are gonna go in a circle so I'm just gonna show it



			
				IMVU's ToS said:
			
		

> *Currency*
> 
> The Site includes in-world fictional currencies ("Currencies" or "Credits" or "Promo Credits" or "Predits" or "Dev Tokens" or "DT" - all of the foregoing are "Credits"), which may be purchased with real world currency and can then be exchanged on this Site for limited license right(s) to use a feature of our Product or a virtual product when, as, and if allowed by IMVU and subject to the terms and conditions of these Terms. IMVU may charge fees for the right to use our Credits, or may distribute our Credits without charge, in IMVU's sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, IMVU Credits are not redeemable for any sum of real world money or monetary value from IMVU at any time. You agree that IMVU has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Credits as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that IMVU will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such rights. IMVU Credits cannot be used for any kind of wagering, betting or gambling either within or outside of our Site. You also agree to use IMVU's Credits for all transactions involving IMVU Products or virtual products and related use rights and you agree not to create, employ, or utilize any parallel form of virtual currency in connection with any transaction on this Site. IMVU may allow for free exchange of some, all, or none of its Credits via third parties, but IMVU does not assume any responsibility associated with your transactions with such third parties. IMVU is the sole owner of Credits, and as such, retains all intellectual property rights affiliated with ownership. You acknowledge that at no time do you own, nor have any right to, the intellectual property affiliated with Credits. You are hereby prohibited from reselling or distributing Credits without the expressed written consent of IMVU.




Note the only time they do mention reselling is written concent from IMVU but they dont delve further on this
Secondlife on the other hand have a subsection dedicated to talking about reselling



			
				SecondLife's ToS said:
			
		

> 4.7 Linden Lab may authorize certain third parties to re-sell Linden Dollars
> Excluding the LindeX, the only other authorized means to purchase Linden Dollars is through authorized third party resellers. Linden Lab may authorize certain third parties to resell Linden Dollars (each an â€œAuthorized Resellerâ€) to such resellerâ€™s customers through its own website(s), Inworld automated teller machine(s) or other Inworld transmittal mechanisms in accordance with its Linden Dollar Authorized Reseller Terms and Conditions. All transactions conducted through an Authorized Reseller are processed by such third party Authorized Reseller. Your purchases from any Authorized Reseller is governed by the terms of service, privacy policies and agreements provided to you by such Authorized Reseller at the time of transaction.
> 
> Users are not allowed to sell Linden Dollars to Authorized Resellers and Authorized Resellers are not allowed to purchase Linden Dollars from users. Any purchase of Linden Dollars from anywhere other than the LindeX or from an Authorized Reseller is not permitted and is considered a violation of these Terms of Service which may result in suspension or termination of your Account.



They also have a section in their wiki talking FURTHER about reselling with a Reseller's TaC
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Lin...llar_Authorized_Reseller_Terms_and_Conditions

we are just stating "IMVU while do allow it...their ToS does not openly state it nor further explain and give guidelines on such subject of being a reseller"
Thus it appears contradictory 
it doesn't help that the listing of the registered resellers are also hosted off site, even the site state
"This is an UNofficial listing of  IMVU Credit resellers"

SL on the other hand have a listing stored on THEIR site
Link


----------



## fleshy2 (Mar 24, 2015)

Why would IMVU list resellers on their own website lol. Not only do resellers have better prices, but IMVU does not want to be liable for any disputes between the reseller and buyer. I think the vagueness in the TOS, is to cover their own rear.

I don't want to derail this topic any further, so please join me in the topic I linked on IMVU.


----------



## Hermie (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> This is interesting, because it essentially means that IMVU isn't even respecting their own ToS anymore.



Now doesn't that sound familiar...


----------



## Moonwok (Mar 24, 2015)

Hello and a wave to everyone. I just joined this in order to help clarify some issues. 

First of all, on the subject of Resellers.

1) IMVU has an agreement with resellers to sell or buy credits (IMVU currency). They have to sign an agreement to do so. 

2) Resellers can buy credits from the developers (content creators) and send them real cash via PayPal. Any content creator can apply to any reseller to sell their credits and await approval. Upon acceptance, it's a fairly simple process, whereby the seller will be allowed to send credits to reseller of their choice, through IMVU. All the pertinent information can be found on the resellers' websites. The rate of exchange varies.

3) You can only buy and sell THROUGH resellers, not on your own. 

4) You can, however, send credits to friends, say, if they have a birthday, or  receive them. Some artists do custom work and get paid this way. Others, using alternate accounts, transfer their credits among these accounts.

For some artists, who are wildly popular, this is how they make a living. For others, it's a hobby and an opportunity for some extra income.


I know it's all a bit convoluted, but I hope this explains how the process works.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

I think the fact that I understand that the process exists and works is getting mixed up with my insistence that it's not in their ToS. I understand how it works and how people use it, and I understand that IMVU is apparently allowing it; However, according to their ToS, this shouldn't be possible, so my point is that they needed to update their ToS as of 2012.


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## Moonwok (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I think the fact that I understand that the process exists and works is getting mixed up with my insistence that it's not in their ToS. I understand how it works and how people use it, and I understand that IMVU is apparently allowing it; However, according to their ToS, this shouldn't be possible, so my point is that they needed to update their ToS as of 2012.



Yes, the TOS has a lot of legalese that it even makes my eyes cross. They need to update that to add that anyone, with the exception of resellers,  is not allowed to participate in the buying/selling of credits.

Edited to add: From another IMVUer:

From the ToS: _"You are hereby prohibited from reselling or distributing Credits without the expressed written consent of IMVU."_ 

Resellers are charged tax by IMVU, you agree to that when you sell to a reseller, that's their "written consent" lol.


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## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Moonwok said:


> From the ToS: _"You are hereby prohibited from reselling or distributing Credits without the expressed written consent of IMVU."_
> 
> Resellers are charged tax by IMVU, you agree to that when you sell to a reseller, that's their "written consent" lol.


Well, that's the written consent for the reseller. Written consent for the user can't be provided by the reseller alone, and that's where the issue with the wording of the ToS comes in.



>



Just wanted to point out for giggles that you actually linked that smilie from IMVU's forum.


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## Moonwok (Mar 24, 2015)

I have an excuse for liking smilies. I'm going through my third childhood :grin:


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> This is also interesting. Is this yet another site (presumably with blackjack and hookers), or is this a utility that will allow for easier cross-site posting and networking?



Definitely the latter and not the former. My attempting to build another social site would be utter folly. As a one-man team, I prefer the notion of "do one thing and do it bloody well."

When we attempted to purchase FA, one of my aims was to rebuild bridges between it and other aspects of the community. Part of that would have been a push for inter-operability, the construction of a proper API, etc. When our purchase was declined, that notion collided with my pet peeve of furry content sites having awful content management controls, and the notion was born to create my own content manager.

I can't give you a GA date, or even a testing date, but if content creators are interested in that kind of toolset and would like to help me test the site some months from now, drop me an IM - I'd really appreciate it.


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 24, 2015)

trapa said:


> I would be willing to do this, Have been trying to get in touch with IMVU to make them aware of the offer. Looking for help with that introduction if anyone can.



I knew I could count on you, man. I've said elsewhere in here that I am still up for it. Let's at least try this thing.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> Definitely the latter and not the former. My attempting to build another social site would be utter folly. As a one-man team, I prefer the notion of "do one thing and do it bloody well."
> 
> (...)
> 
> I can't give you a GA date, or even a testing date, but if content creators are interested in that kind of toolset and would like to help me test the site some months from now, drop me an IM - I'd really appreciate it.



I know a few who'd probably be interested in that. I'll point them at this post and let them know for sure.



> When we attempted to purchase FA, one of my aims was to rebuild bridges between it and other aspects of the community. Part of that would have been a push for inter-operability, the construction of a proper API, etc. When our purchase was declined, that notion collided with my pet peeve of furry content sites having awful content management controls, and the notion was born to create my own content manager.


That would have been pretty great, though with FA's current owners I can't see openness being in the cards for the future. I don't know you, so I can't speak to how reliable you or your associates would have been in relation to IMVU, but I'm pretty sure a lot more people would have been on board with an open API and an inter-operability push than ads featuring Mormons and bodybuilding preteens.



Silvershock said:


> I knew I could count on you, man. I've said elsewhere in here that I am still up for it. Let's at least try this thing.


Now there's a thought. If IMVU were willing to sell FA at this point or at any point down the line, there's nothing that would stop someone from purchasing it, because Dragoneer can't say no. Though I'm sure there's something in the terms of sale that require IMVU to retain Ferrox for a specific period of time.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Ansitru said:


> - PheagleAdler: you _are _a brownnoser, even if you don't want to hear it. Someone posts proof, you immediately stand at the ready to defend the actions by using the most twisted logic I've ever seen. If anything, I'm in awe at the fact that you constantly seem to be able to find excuses. Go into PR, man. Do something productive with that particular skill of yours.



No.



TheArchiver said:


> Pheagle's attitude is merely an example of a side problem FA faces, that a large group of people simply don't care and want to force others to follow suit. Granted in an army of white knights, Pheagle's the Fuhrer and gladly accepts his leadership position. The term "hate begets hate" sound familiar? Well stupid begets stupid and that's not entirely healthy. We respond when he says something profoundly idiotic because it damages the situation further if we let it continue. The same goes for other people of his ilk not knowing a damn thing they're talking about and downplaying legitimate concerns.
> 
> If he wants to be "neutral" and "optimistic" fine. But he's not. There have been a few people who think this may be better for FA and have given their reasons why. I disagree, but I respect them for not being obtuse about it. _He's_ damage controlling and flagrantly disregarding facts, taunting more civil users when they respond in opposition, and going to profiles to harass them like he did to RedSavage. By the way, I thank you Smelge for digging up the old threads of our little pet eagle though. I now fully recall him and understand what sort of gross individual he can be.
> 
> I realize I am not making the best response for this thread. I just find plucking his feathers enjoyable when it's appropriate, though for the sake of the thread, I'll make an effort to relax.



I'm not the one who started this fight, if you wanted to be civil this argument never would have happened.



Tchelline said:


> I understand you are a whiteknight but you didn't need to insult people :/



No, you really don't understand.



Smelge said:


> Not really. Rowe was on the wrong side, so deserved to get banned. Eagleguy is a defender of the purple one, so he's good.


No.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Now there's a thought. If IMVU were willing to sell FA at this point or at any point down the line, there's nothing that would stop someone from purchasing it, because Dragoneer can't say no. Though I'm sure there's something in the terms of sale that require IMVU to retain Ferrox for a specific period of time.



That would actually be amazing if a group just straight up bought FA from IMVU. I'd imagine they're starting to get cold feet about now.


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## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Whatever anyone does, don't respond to what Pheagle just posted. Let's keep this on point. I have no idea why he feels the need to reopen the fighting, but let's just let him stomp around on his own time.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Whatever anyone does, don't respond to what Pheagle just posted. Let's keep this on point. I have no idea why he feels the need to reopen the fighting, but let's just let him stomp around on his own time.



I'm sorry, I just wanted to get it out of the way. If no one responds, it's done, it's over.


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Whatever anyone does, don't respond to what Pheagle just posted. Let's keep this on point. I have no idea why he feels the need to reopen the fighting, but let's just let him stomp around on his own time.



He wants the last word even if it means starting the fight again. It's a form of validation, to be the big man who got the last punch.

A cross-posting pltform would be ideal, it would make posting a piece of art between multiple sites a hell of a lot easier for artists. It wouldn't be too popular with a lot of site admins though because it makes it easier for an artist to migrate to a new primary site. Which really is what is needed now.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Smelge said:


> He wants the last word even if it means starting the fight again. It's a form of validation, to be the big man who got the last punch.
> 
> A cross-posting pltform would be ideal, it would make posting a piece of art between multiple sites a hell of a lot easier for artists. It wouldn't be too popular with a lot of site admins though because it makes it easier for an artist to migrate to a new primary site. Which really is what is needed now.



I think there are tools for that already to help cross post stuff


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## Smelge (Mar 24, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> I think there are tools for that already to help cross post stuff



If there are, then there needs to be better advertising for them. A tool like that is only useful if people know about it and use it.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> I think there are tools for that already to help cross post stuff



Yes, but as far as I'm aware the only one that's halfway mature is Waxpost, and that requires Google Chrome. I've also heard that it's not really ideal at what it does. A platform-agnostic cross-poster would make life a lot easier.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> I think there are tools for that already to help cross post stuff


just not a universal one, usually its set to being FA to SF/IB/W
the Weasyl one though at least connects from not only FA, but also IB and SF to make posts to weasyl


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

So Dragoneer is on Twitter talking about how when he sold FA it had no debt. This is probably _legally_ true, but not _actually_ true. What he's admitted to is essentially taking business debt in his own name to keep the business' numbers looking good for a potential investor or buyer.


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## Silvershock (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Yes, but as far as I'm aware the only one that's halfway mature is Waxpost, and that requires Google Chrome. I've also heard that it's not really ideal at what it does. A platform-agnostic cross-poster would make life a lot easier.



As mentioned, the only real cross-post systems that exist are (no offence at all to their authors) immature, and require specific setups. I'm aiming for something that can be accessed via any web browser, works well on a tablet, etc. I also want it to be about more than just posting the content - I want a cross-manager.

Someone mentioned the possibility of pissing off site owners. That exists, but this isn't intended as a migration tool, as much as an ongoing utility. It is intended to make creators' lives easier, not nick content or traffic away from anyone. I hope that I can persuade site operators of the value of such a utility once I can show it in action.

You're also quite right that no-one knows who I am. I kinda like it that way. ;-) That's not to say that I'm not active within the community; far from it. I'm simply a believer that if you're doing your job correctly, you're likely unknown. I'm hoping that my previous work helping with and running events, along with a solid toolset, will prove my intent better than anything I can tell you here.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

**Reading back now that I'm on my computer**



Calemeyr said:


> "But FA isn't a porn site! Most of the art is GA (even though most of it has no views)." :V Dragoneer must've said something like that during the sale. Yeah, no. FA was founded when another site banned porn.


IMVU apparently had some debates a while back over whether or not _fursuits_ were GA, so there's absolutely no excuse for them to not know that FA would have a shitload of porn on it.



AshleyAshes said:


> Much more seriously, the IMVU situation is pretty simple.  IMVU profits from the sale of these pirated artworks.  These profits are part of the funds that not only purchased Fur Affinity but go into each and every one of Dragoneer's paycheques now that he's on IMVU's payroll.  Dragoneer and IMVU thus have a significantly increased responsibility to protect the artists of FurAffinity beyond meerly obeying copryright laws by using the DMCA.


This sums up the entire situation perfectly.
If someone comes around and says "wow, I really like Stolen Furry Poster #463, I want to buy that", they will have to go through and either give IMVU money for credits to buy it, or get credits from someone else (who gave money to IMVU for credits).
If Stolen Furry Poster #463 didn't exist, IMVU wouldn't get that USD from that user to buy it, thus, IMVU (and FA) indirectly profits from the sale of stolen furry art. 
It's true that if you post something online, anyone can re-upload it, yes, but that doesn't make it okay, and it certainly doesn't make it okay for a site that has such a huge issue with people stealing and selling art that they would _purchase a site that hosts a shitload of art that they've stolen_.
If a user really and truly wanted to, the way that IMVU works with it's credit thing, a user could very easily indirectly sell furry art for USD :/ I won't get into more detail than that.




			
				MoonRiverz said:
			
		

> This is what infuriates me that Varsha would post the direct link to this site in the GA forum, knowing full well it's intended average product base. Over and over I read of how much smut and pornography is posted on this site. IMVU also discontinued use of any UFI product because they could then not advertise their gift cards in the likes of Wal-Mart and such. They wish to be seen as family friendly and by acquiring this site makes us question them now.


First off, thank you for joining and helping us understand this!!!
Second, this is what I don't understand about IMVU. Why purchase a site filled with porn by a fandom that is known for it's porn, when you're unable to have gift cards up if you're 18+? Is it okay if the site isn't directly advertised on IMVU? Perhaps this deal is one-sided and there will be IMVU advertisements on FA, I don't know.

(I'm more surprised because I know that swearing isn't allowed on IMVU, which is nuts.)



			
				MoonRiverz said:
			
		

> When I myself signed up for it, I had to verify my age by inputting my *Social Security Number and providing a credit card* in my name.


I literally can't believe what I'm reading here. JFC.



			
				MoonRiverz said:
			
		

> *Users can be banned for simply swearing in a GA (General Access) public chat room.


IMVU has their work cut out for them, lol...



Calemeyr said:


> So no aroused genitals on IMVU. Then why did IMVU purchase FA, when a large amount of the porn here involves aroused genitals? By the posted chart above, it seems the most you can see on IMVU is Cinemax/HBO level stuff, but FA is full blown hardcore porno spoof. Just doesn't make much sense.


HBO has Game of Thrones, so nope
Animal Planet has animal boners so not even that
Nat Geo has titties
Treehouse?
â™ª _You're watching Treehouse_ â™ª 



Runefox said:


> First, IMVU requiring a SSN, credit card in-name, and regular selfies with photo ID to access AP content. That makes it even more difficult for artists to access the AP section of the site for the purposes of issuing DMCA requests.


IMVU cares about artists, Runefox!



TheArchiver said:


> And Dragoneer is groveling at his feet in the comments. But anything else from common users is completely ignored. I don't think I'd trust a site asking for my SSN to remove my content. There is very little else one could do if THAT is a requirement. I don't blame Onta for leaving.


At this point I'd just fucking let them take my goddamn art
Take it, bitches
Fucking take it
Any new art will be covered in hideous watermarks
Horrible way to treat artists.



Runefox said:


> Didn't you just get $2200+ in donations to buy a new Cintiq?


Give me the Cintiq and I'll track down every single piece of stolen art and every source



Runefox said:


> The DMCA form
> A few months of your time for IMVU to review


Assuming you don't fuck up a teeny tiny step or contact the DMCA agent on her off day, apparently.



Dragoneer said:


> If I find about them, yes. I don't follow every user on the site, but when I see journals like that I try to assure them that we're here to help.


I've got a list of stolen art a few pages back and will be finding more today.



Smelge said:


> Yeah, it's great and all that you're taking the time to reassure people, but the problem now is that you're reassuring a few select and amazingly popular people.


_Most_ of the art there is from "popular artists", however. The most stolen art there is probably from Falvie.



MoonRiverz said:


> Just an FYI, even if an AP user finds the link to an AP product and sends that to a non AP user, the non AP user cannot view the product or the page. All they will have to go on is your word and if you also provide a screen shot of the actual product page for them. No one, whatsoever, who is NOT AP cannot see anything AP in the catalog, store, game, ect, even if they have a direct link, they will get a blank page and told they must log in, and without AP next to your name you cannot see anything.



The trouble with this is that it's near-impossible to find every stolen furry image on IMVU. The ones we've found so far have fortunately been tagged with "furry". There may be 1000's more tagged "wolf" or "husky" or mis-labeled that we won't find.



Dragoneer said:


> They just have to include the links I give them in the DMCA (which you send by email). They don't have to have AP access.
> 
> As I said, I'm working with them and can provide them with screenshots/proof. I am helping the artists directly. You don't need an IMVU account to send a DMCA.


There is _so_ much stolen art. I got burned out last night and had to stop because it was too much.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 24, 2015)

So IMVU got a debt free FA _and_ the money from the fundraiser as a sort-of "Buy FA, Get $20k Back!" deal?

Fantastic.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> There is _so_ much stolen art. I got burned out last night and had to stop because it was too much.



Around 300,000 items and counting last version 
I checked,


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> "Im working on it, I assure everything is kays" is not explaining things.



Well, then maybe I should just give up and never try again. After all, Homer Simpson said, "Trying is the first step towards failure"  FML


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## Verin Asper (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm only gonna laugh when the users who been abusing this system is now either
A) trying to save their ass by removing the art themselves
or
B) hiding em behind by misleading titles


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## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> I'm only gonna laugh when the users who been abusing this system is now either
> A) trying to save their ass by removing the art themselves
> or
> B) hiding em behind by misleading titles



Instead of furry, it's gonna be something like "funny animal" and the go-to search term is just gonna keep going in a cat and mouse game for eternity. Meanwhile IMVU laughs and charges another credit card.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Well, then maybe I should just give up and never try again. After all, Homer Simpson said, "Trying is the first step towards failure"  FML



Just think about it. FA gets sold and it becomes anounced two months after, without raising a poll or anything. Just after being promised transparency. Then, on the IMMENSE amount of evidence of art theft and he does nothing but give FALSE solutions (how is one going to flag if one has not paid them 20 bucks to browse the stolen art in the first place?). Also, Imvu is a company whose target audience are literally children, what kind of moral responsability can Dragoneer have by selling to a corporation that is obviously going to censor adult content (that is the heart of furry artwork)? Thats like leaving a lion alone to take care of a group of lambs, with nothing to ensure the lamb's security but a ridiculous promise of "lol everything is awwight".

This is Evidence Evidence Evidence v.s. False and uncaring promises of "nah everything is awwight, also im taking care of things, i dun need to explain anything anyways lol"

Since the anouncement of FA's selling, he has offered ZERO solid information to grant safety to artists and users, all he does is evade questions and give vague answers, we all know them, he just repeats the same useless rhetoric over and over again with no real solutions and no solid information.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Well, then maybe I should just give up and never try again. After all, Homer Simpson said, "Trying is the first step towards failure"  FML



It's only natural you'd try and help out, make the case that maybe we have the wrong idea of Dragoneer. But after all these problems over all these years it has to stop somewhere and it's stopping here


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> It's only natural you'd try and help out, make the case that maybe we have the wrong idea of Dragoneer. But after all these problems over all these years it has to stop somewhere and it's stopping here


I can't stay bitter or annoyed forever, I simply can't as I have work to do and debts to pay off (thank you student loans, lol), that I don't have enough time to harbor negative feelings. Most of those upset will move on eventually, some will hold a grudge just because they can't see from all angles.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> I can't stay bitter or annoyed forever, I simply can't as I have work to do and debts to pay off (thank you student loans, lol), that I don't have enough time to harbor negative feelings. Most of those upset will move on eventually, some will hold a grudge just because they can't see from all angles.



You should see this as a warning, take heed that this place could be going down and spread yourself to different sites

FA isn't going to last forever and it could be gone any day at this rate 

it's not a negative feeling to harbor there are years of facts here to suggest this place isn't well run and all we're seeing now is bad communications and poor intentions it is better just to make yourself known whever you can


----------



## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Man, haven't posted in ages. -Dusts off account- Any how, this entire thing hit the shitter. I also urge those whom have found their art stolen to call their customer support and demand to talk to a higher up if you get the run around. Their toll-free (in the US) telephone number is: *866-761-0975*.  The only local number I could find is 650-646-3244

But this entire situation is depressing. IMVU is one of the worst kinds of business models. To hand over a majority of where the fandom hung out online, to a thing like them.... Dragoneer... You pretty much slapped the entire community in the face, along with throwing away the last bit of self respect you had for yourself. You had other offers from community base to take over the site, to buy it, and support it and instead you turned around and 'sold it' for money in your pocket, and basically lifted both of your hands happily and flipped every single one off, and basically told us to go fuck our selfs with a smile on your face. So long as you made a buck right? Wouldn't surprise me to see FAU suffer in the end as well. Let alone all the piss ass angry people you'll need to deal with come convention time. 

Your ethics are in question for sure. You wanted to cling onto the top title so badly, you no doubt listed in your contract you cannot be fired or something, that you remain in charge of FA, etc or some BS like that. The fact that there's this "NDA" that your also hiding behind smells like a load. You lied to us over and over, again and again. You say one thing, then do another. Sure, you've done a lot of good for the site and community but you've also done some bad. But nothing you've done so far can top this. This is bottom of the barrel. You promptly pulled down your pants, puckered up your asshole and took a proverbial shit in our cheerios. 

You see the backlash, the outcry of pretty much most of FA raging against this. This is why you never mentioned it, this is why you not once brought it up to the public. More than likely a massive group of people would have gotten together, [in fact some had] to buy out FA and keep it within the fandom. But nah, you said "Fuck dat shit bro, i want to stay on top AND get paid, and hella cash!" 

You made the comment that you didn't get money, or you want to brakes for your car. Bro... don't lie to us. You have plenty of money now after that sale, and plenty more from the donations. Th fact you keep avoiding things, aren't being transparent. It's insulting to any one of us with even the most basic of intelligence. You don't sell something and not turn a profit, you don't sell something and get nothing in return. And if you even try, even TRY and say "It was for the community to keep the site going".

Then you need to take a breather and seriously stop and look at things, and what you've done. Because this isn't the sort of situation you can go "oops... MY BAD" and walk away from.

We've been outcrying, outcrying I tell you. For answers to the most commonly asked questions and all you've done thus far is avoid them. You cheery pick things to respond to as well.

At least give us some honesty man, that's all we've been crying out for. 

Also what happens if that guy who claims 50% of the site as his, ends up coming forth with evidence that he does in fact own 50%? What happens then?

Also my apologizes for this anger rant. But this entire situation has me upset. FA was one of very few places where I could feel like I could be ME and post my art, and feel safe about it. Now that feeling is gone.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

Calling their customer support line won't do nothing but piss them off and get them to tell you to file a DMCA


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## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Then let them be pissed. I filed a DMCA, and I'm willing to file a class action lawsuit as well.


----------



## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

[h=2]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Re: FA/IMVU Discussion[/h] 				   						 						 				 					 						




 Originally Posted by *krystalfox77* 

 
 				I can't stay bitter or annoyed forever, I  simply can't as I have work to do and debts to pay off (thank you  student loans, lol), that I don't have enough time to harbor negative  feelings. Most of those upset will move on eventually, some will hold a  grudge just because they can't see from all angles.



You should see this as a warning, take heed that this place could be going down and spread yourself to different sites

FA isn't going to last forever and it could be gone any day at this rate 

it's not a negative feeling to harbor there are years of facts here to  suggest this place isn't well run and all we're seeing now is bad  communications and poor intentions it is better just to make yourself  known whever you can​ 




[Messed up and forgot to reply with quote]


This right here is perfect advice. I suggest people start letting their fanbase know on FA that they are moving IF you are of course. Link your tumblr, twiters, blogs, weasle things inkbunnies [if your there] and sofury. DA as well if your there also. Just be ready for IMVU's garbage they'll eventually be bringing. As for IMVU's community base. There are tons of good people there, very good people in fact. Also some shity, just like most places. But it's IMVU's business model that makes money of off thievery. Don't support IMVU in any way if possibe.


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

apollisoffa said:


> Then let them be pissed. I filed a DMCA, and *I'm willing to file a class action lawsuit as well*.


Hm, in order to file a class action, you'd need to be able to prove damages. Theoretically, you can do that, but it would be difficult to build a case with how closed everything is on the defendant's side. You'd need a good lawyer in this case.


----------



## MoonRiverz (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> *First off, thank you for joining and helping us understand this!!!*



Thank you and you are welcome. 



Verin Asper said:


> I'm only gonna laugh when the users who been abusing this system is now either
> A) trying to save their ass by removing the art themselves
> or
> B) hiding em behind by misleading titles



Another FYI, every single creator has the option to edit their products at any time for free of charge. There are many users who pay to create a new product and if they don't want to pay again to make something else, even if the item has been purchased in store by other users, they can change the item anytime they wish. So say you found a bunch of furry stolen art, the creator gets whim that their products are on the line, they can edit that product, change it to something completely different (say a picture of a car) reupload to the IMVU servers and none will be the wiser, other then those who purchased that naughty furry poster and now have a picture of a car. They can also rename the profduct to suit their new picture of a car. The product goes back into Peer Review and it is usually passed. There are no refunds issued. I'm telling you, y'all have a huge workload in front of you.

::edited to add:: this can also be reversed, a few weeks down the road when the majority of stolen art blows over, they can re edit their product and change it back.


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

To be honest, I was hoping that screencaps of the stolen art + ability to go through that user's shop and see it would be enough to get them banned. Do users not get banned for it over there?


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> To be honest, I was hoping that screencaps of the stolen art + ability to go through that user's shop and see it would be enough to get them banned. Do users not get banned for it over there?



Wouldn't it be just as easy for them to claim you have a vendetta, and edited that image?


----------



## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Hm, in order to file a class action, you'd need to be able to prove damages. Theoretically, you can do that, but it would be difficult to build a case with how closed everything is on the defendant's side. You'd need a good lawyer in this case.



I'm easily able to prove plenty of damages. Sure some things are closed on their side but my lawyer could also file for information to be disclosed, as in how many an items was purchased, so forth and so on and then redistributed. This forum pretty much has mountains of proof already to be used. The links to the art being stolen, and the fact that IMVU is making profit on other peoples work without permission from the contents creators. They are liable because they run and own the site.  Also it's a U.S based company so it needs to abide by out anti piracy laws and copyright laws. As for my item that I filed a DMCA for, I have a trade mark and copyright, I filed it with the copyright office, and paid what was needed to be paid so others couldn't use my work without my written permission via signed contract.


----------



## Fleshy (Mar 24, 2015)

Sometimes. Every person who stole my artwork got permabanned, but I've seen some get away with it for years, even with repeat warnings. Basically, after you send the notice to the DMCA agent, she tells IMVU's customer service (located in Manila LOL) to go ahead and remove the offending item. Depending on which CS rep handles it, someone could get banned for a first-time offense, or a multiple offender will get another slap on the wrist. It seems to be random. There is no consistency.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Wouldn't it be just as easy for them to claim you have a vendetta, and edited that image?


That's one issue you could run into, yes. However, all we have right now is Neer's ability to link to the stolen item on IMVU and hope that they don't edit it before it gets taken down.
Screencaps might help?



Fleshy said:


> Sometimes. Every person who stole my artwork got permabanned, but I've seen some get away with it for years, even with repeat warnings. Basically, after you send the notice to the DMCA agent, she tells IMVU's customer service (located in Manila LOL) to go ahead and remove the offending item. Depending on which CS rep handles it, someone could get banned for a first-time offense, or a multiple offender will get another slap on the wrist. It seems to be random. There is no consistency.


I wonder how many repeat offenders are paying customers


----------



## Runefox (Mar 24, 2015)

apollisoffa said:


> I'm easily able to prove plenty of damages. Sure some things are closed on their side but my lawyer could also file for information to be disclosed, as in how many an items was purchased, so forth and so on and then redistributed. This forum pretty much has mountains of proof already to be used. The links to the art being stolen, and the fact that IMVU is making profit on other peoples work without permission from the contents creators. They are liable because they run and own the site.  Also it's a U.S based company so it needs to abide by out anti piracy laws and copyright laws. As for my item that I filed a DMCA for, I have a trade mark and copyright, I filed it with the copyright office, and paid what was needed to be paid so others couldn't use my work without my written permission via signed contract.



I don't think that they are liable for damages just for receiving payment for the goods on their store seeing as they do respond to DMCA, but IANAL; Though, I DO believe they are liable for damages for stolen items being sold on their store that are hidden behind the AP paywall. It's been shown that there is a mountain of stolen artwork behind it, and IMVU's official response to requests to browse the material for DMCA purposes is the customer service equivalent of "bite me". That stinks of "not-legal" to me, and I'm sure any lawyer worth their salt can drum up a case around that. But that's all contingent upon actually being able to put a value on damages, which would require legal discovery.


----------



## sethtriggs (Mar 24, 2015)

> Definitely the latter and not the former. My attempting to build another  social site would be utter folly. As a one-man team, I prefer the  notion of "do one thing and do it bloody well."
> 
> When we attempted to purchase FA, one of my aims was to rebuild bridges  between it and other aspects of the community. Part of that would have  been a push for inter-operability, the construction of a proper API,  etc. When our purchase was declined, that notion collided with my pet  peeve of furry content sites having awful content management controls,  and the notion was born to create my own content manager.
> 
> I can't give you a GA date, or even a testing date, but if content  creators are interested in that kind of toolset and would like to help  me test the site some months from now, drop me an IM - I'd really  appreciate it.



Silvershock, to make things faster you need a group of people. There was that one person, Ben Anderson (?), who really got into Yak's face about the coding. Find him to give you a hand. The more the merrier.

And definitely if your program can have a stepped bulk upload function that doesn't generate notifications, all the better. That would allow artists to be able to make their galleries able to be mirrored in other locations.

And I want to be in on the testing. I want concrete action. While I don't have development talent I want to see something constructive out of all this, instead of incessant vitriol and hatred.


----------



## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Runefox said:


> I don't think that they are liable for damages just for receiving payment for the goods on their store seeing as they do respond to DMCA, but IANAL; Though, I DO believe they are liable for damages for stolen items being sold on their store that are hidden behind the AP paywall. It's been shown that there is a mountain of stolen artwork behind it, and IMVU's official response to requests to browse the material for DMCA purposes is the customer service equivalent of "bite me". That stinks of "not-legal" to me, and I'm sure any lawyer worth their salt can drum up a case around that. But that's all contingent upon actually being able to put a value on damages, which would require legal discovery.



That's the plan. I'm hoping to gather enough to get this done. I know a law firm that's local who have two furries whom work there who travel to our fur meets each month. When I have enough gathered and spend a bit more talking with them to see if we can build a case, I'll start disclosing a bit more. I don't really want to count my chickens before they hatch. Also the more people who keep submitting proof, the better. So thank you for all those who have posted the links and screen shots thus far. They've all been added and saved for the time being to gather up evidence. 

As for being able to put a value on damages, that can easily be done. Not very hard in all honesty, I just need to submit how much I sell the image digitally as part of an art pack, or how much it sells via poster when it comes convention times. I have plenty of paystubs and sales information for that.


----------



## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 24, 2015)

> As for being able to put a value on damages, that can easily be done. Not very hard in all honesty, I just need to submit how much I sell the image digitally as part of an art pack, or how much it sells via poster when it comes convention times. I have plenty of paystubs and sales information for that.




don't forget you can also figure the cost the artist charges for the commission itself. Like one piece from an artist might commission for 100 dollars, if they no longer sell that piece again that piece is valued at 100 dollars that it cost to commission it. so there is that as well. contact the artists I bet many of them would join you in such a class action.


----------



## MoonRiverz (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> That's one issue you could run into, yes. However, all we have right now is Neer's ability to link to the stolen item on IMVU and hope that they don't edit it before it gets taken down.
> Screencaps might help?
> 
> 
> I wonder how many repeat offenders are paying customers



You must be a paying VIP member to create products in IMVU. Unless you are a Grandfathered account, then an active paid VIP pass is required. VIP ranges in price. Personally, I myself pay $50. usd for a year because every now and then they offer a full year of VIP with the purchase/redemption of a $50.00 prepaid IMVU card. Grandfathered accounts do not have to have VIP to submit new products. A Grandfathered account is anyone who was part of the IMVU creator program prior to May 10, 2012 10am PT. I am not Grandfathered. 

http://de.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=10209480


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

apollisoffa said:


> Man, haven't posted in ages. -Dusts off account- Any how, this entire thing hit the shitter. I also urge those whom have found their art stolen to call their customer support and demand to talk to a higher up if you get the run around. Their toll-free (in the US) telephone number is: *866-761-0975*.  The only local number I could find is 650-646-3244
> 
> But this entire situation is depressing. IMVU is one of the worst kinds of business models. To hand over a majority of where the fandom hung out online, to a thing like them.... Dragoneer... You pretty much slapped the entire community in the face, along with throwing away the last bit of self respect you had for yourself. You had other offers from community base to take over the site, to buy it, and support it and instead you turned around and 'sold it' for money in your pocket, and basically lifted both of your hands happily and flipped every single one off, and basically told us to go fuck our selfs with a smile on your face. So long as you made a buck right? Wouldn't surprise me to see FAU suffer in the end as well. Let alone all the piss ass angry people you'll need to deal with come convention time.
> 
> ...



We should copy and paste this everywhere in FA.


----------



## Fleshy (Mar 24, 2015)

That number is billing lol. Why not send messages to the CEO and other staff? They can't avoid an IMVU inbox full of irate FA users.


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## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Fleshy said:


> That number is billing lol. Why not send messages to the CEO and other staff? They can't avoid an IMVU inbox full of irate FA users.



I contacted my local law firm and they think so far they have a case, and surprisingly one of the lawyers there was already looking into this situation because he to is a furry. He just like us all, does not wish for our community  to be pushed under by IMVU just because one person wanted to make a quick buck.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

apollisoffa said:


> I contacted my local law firm and they think so far they have a case, and surprisingly one of the lawyers there was already looking into this situation because he to is a furry. He just like us all, does not wish for our community  to be pushed under by IMVU just because one person wanted to make a quick buck.



I hope you can proceed with this. I preffer to see Dragoneer fall than to see all my fellow artists getting deceived and hurt by that monster.


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## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

The only thing that will do and harm to Dragoneer, is if in fact he did sell off property he only 50% owns.  This is all, the rest will fall on IMVU's shoulders. You reap what you sow. The fur community is one of the most passionate and active ones out there. This is the kind of thing that wont be easily brushed under the rug and forgotten, let alone allowed especially when it comes to peoples livelihood. 

Yes, art theft has been around for a very long time. But people from all walks of artistic life have already been filing DMCA's with IMVU for years now, some with luck, others none at all. But to come in, unwelcome d by the community they have been stealing bread off the table from, with a smile? .... The fuck?


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

I don't know how much of a case there would be if IMVU openly states that you can file a DMCA to get your art removed


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## Fleshy (Mar 24, 2015)

@appolisoffa -Do what you need to do, just maybe re-think harassing the billing department for the decisions made upstairs. Harass the people upstairs instead is all I'm saying. I do customer service irl (some of it involves billing) and it's so stressful when people scream and 20-question me over company decisions and other things that I have no control over. If you decide to call billing anyway, be mature and polite about it.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

apollisoffa said:


> The only thing that will do and harm to Dragoneer, is if in fact he did sell off property he only 50% owns.  This is all, the rest will fall on IMVU's shoulders. You reap what you sow. The fur community is one of the most passionate and active ones out there. This is the kind of thing that wont be easily brushed under the rug and forgotten, let alone allowed especially when it comes to peoples livelihood.
> 
> Yes, art theft has been around for a very long time. But people from all walks of artistic life have already been filing DMCA's with IMVU for years now, some with luck, others none at all. But to come in, unwelcome d by the community they have been stealing bread off the table from, with a smile? .... The fuck?



Also you need to put yourself in contact with Pandaderp, who seems to be the legitimate owner of the other half of our motherland.


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 24, 2015)

This is starting to get pretty damn retarded now. What the hell is up with these "I gots teh lawyer connectshuns" posts? I feel like this topic is now reverting to teenage empty threats.


----------



## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I don't know how much of a case there would be if IMVU openly states that you can file a DMCA to get your art removed



A large one, especially from those whom I've been in contact with who have been keeping records of their dealings with IMVU after having filed their DMCA's and have still yet to see anything done. Also even if there is a DMCA, there are still laws protecting copy right material, and other sales laws that need to abide here in the U.S for damages. But it requires a court. Which I'm more than willing to do. I have the time, and I have the money. Had I known Neer was trying to sell the site off, I would have offered to purchase it, and bring in community investors. Sure, there would be Ad's and stuff like that, which I know a lot of people would dislike. But they would be legitimate adds. Mostly fur based. Of course with a few other ad's for like car's maybe, or soda, things like that. Food products! 

But that would be going towards upkeep. Also maybe a bit of profit for the investors of course in the long run, but that's about it.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> This is starting to get pretty damn retarded now. What the hell is up with these "I gots teh lawyer connectshuns" posts? I feel like this topic is now reverting to teenage empty threats.



All the teens from imvu coming here


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## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> This is starting to get pretty damn retarded now. What the hell is up with these "I gots teh lawyer connectshuns" posts? I feel like this topic is now reverting to teenage empty threats.



Okay.

(You can leave now)


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## Featherwing15 (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Also you need to put yourself in contact with Pandaderp, who seems to be the legitimate owner of the other half of our motherland.



Allegedly. If someone can link me to any follow-up regarding this, I'd be greatly appreciative, because I've been curious about this for a while, just quiet because of activation issues...


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

Featherwing15 said:


> Allegedly. If someone can link me to any follow-up regarding this, I'd be greatly appreciative, because I've been curious about this for a while, just quiet because of activation issues...



Well Pandaderp is actually the victim here so if you plan to talk about Neer selling the 50% that didn't belong to him then you MUST be in contact with Pandaderp.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Well Pandaderp is actually the victim here so if you plan to talk about Neer selling the 50% that didn't belong to him then you MUST be in contact with Pandaderp.



i asked him about it and all he says is it will take a long time before he can do anything


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## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Hm.


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## apollisoffa (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> This is starting to get pretty damn retarded now. What the hell is up with these "I gots teh lawyer connectshuns" posts? I feel like this topic is now reverting to teenage empty threats.



Yes because me wanting to make sure that my art, along with hundreds of  others aren't being abused to profit some one else is retarded. As for  connections, no, it's not a connection really. They just happen to be a  local fur who comes to the meets. I would pay out of my pocket to hire  the law firm. Right now I'm inquiring free council from them at the time  being.

Also going and assuming that this a teenage threat is a little  insulting. I'm in my 50's and I can darn well tell you I'll follow up  with a lawsuit if IMVU doesn't start acting on the DMCA's that have been  issued.


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## akitary (Mar 24, 2015)

Too lazy to search through 46 pages for original poster:

This: http://kobitate.com/fa-exodus-helper/

needs your profile page to have guest access allowed, or it will tell you you don't exist or something. (some people couldn't use it because the didn't remember they blocked guests or didn't even make the connection)


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

So, um, people are still confused as to why Dragoneer hasn't shown up for damage control on actual FA art side of things yet. Any particular reason? Like, as in making a new journal entry?


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 24, 2015)

apollisoffa said:


> Yes because me wanting to make sure that my art, along with hundreds of  others aren't being abused to profit some one else is retarded. As for  connections, no, it's not a connection really. They just happen to be a  local fur who comes to the meets. I would pay out of my pocket to hire  the law firm. Right now I'm inquiring free council from them at the time  being.
> 
> Also going and assuming that this a teenage threat is a little  insulting. I'm in my 50's and I can darn well tell you I'll follow up  with a lawsuit if IMVU doesn't start acting on the DMCA's that have been  issued.



I'm a Croconaw IRL and I think that you're going about this like you were an eeveelution. Yup, I went there. 


Take this idle banter off of this thread. I'd rather it not turn into some stupid "Let's pretend we have a lawyer with teh contacts to make it seem like we're important Phoenix Wright Ace Attorneys that will bring down teh Evil Sean Piche". Might wanna find a neopets forum where that kind of stuff impresses the general user base.



krystalfox77 said:


> So, um, people are still confused as to why Dragoneer hasn't shown up for damage control on actual FA art side of things yet. Any particular reason? Like, as in making a new journal entry?



You must be new here. An official Neer statement is released 3 months after the shitstorm has happened (usually).


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 24, 2015)

And of course I just got ninja'd XD Guess my posts aren't important  XDD


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> So, um, people are still confused as to why Dragoneer hasn't shown up for damage control on actual FA art side of things yet. Any particular reason? Like, as in making a new journal entry?



He's convinced he did nothing wrong

I came in here because one of my friends was banned unfairly and when people asked him about it he ignored them and that was it he doesn't care about any of this he just wants to wait until it blows over


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## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> i asked him about it and all he says is it will take a long time before he can do anything



Every legal process takes time.


----------



## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> And of course I just got ninja'd XD Guess my posts aren't important  XDD



Wish we had a true answer to that question unfortunately no one knows anything because nothing has been done so far.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> And of course I just got ninja'd XD Guess my posts aren't important  XDD



The art theft is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.


The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.


Right now they promise that they will not touch anything. But they refuse to show the contract, so we cant really trust their promises. It wouldn't be the first time that Dragoneer deceived us all.


IMVU, in order to protect themselves from what is obviously going to come, will have to insert restrictions to the adult content. Perhaps a Premium membership or just plainly banning adult art.


Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars with the sole and only purpose of getting money from furries getting into Imvu and the ads. However, they could have obtained THE SAME effect by simply buying Ad space, whose cost is only 1/20 of what they paid for the site.


I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment!


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> He's convinced he did nothing wrong
> 
> I came in here because one of my friends was banned unfairly and when people asked him about it he ignored them and that was it he doesn't care about any of this he just wants to wait until it blows over



Dragoneer reminds me A LOT of the president of my country (Mexico).

Enrique PeÃ±a Nieto (the president) is a complete jackass who can't even speak in english correctly. He has made more mistakes in three years of government than all the presidents of this milenium together. Yet everytime he has to speak, he says "everything is fine, no problem, we are getting into high places, we are working on it, although I can't give details because bla bla".


----------



## mcjoel (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'm a Croconaw IRL and I think that you're going about this like you were an eeveelution. Yup, I went there.
> 
> 
> Take this idle banter off of this thread. I'd rather it not turn into some stupid "Let's pretend we have a lawyer with teh contacts to make it seem like we're important Phoenix Wright Ace Attorneys that will bring down teh Evil Sean Piche". Might wanna find a neopets forum where that kind of stuff impresses the general user base.
> ...








But crocs right people keep all this faux legal nonsense to a minimum


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> This is starting to get pretty damn retarded now. What the hell is up with these "I gots teh lawyer connectshuns" posts? I feel like this topic is now reverting to teenage empty threats.



I think this thread has served its purpose anyway. Nothing's gonna change for the better, we're all aware of imvu's art theft problem now, and bitching about Neer is only entertaining for the 1st few hours after he's fucked up.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'm a Croconaw IRL and I think that you're going about this like you were an eeveelution. Yup, I went there.
> 
> 
> Take this idle banter off of this thread. I'd rather it not turn into some stupid "Let's pretend we have a lawyer with teh contacts to make it seem like we're important Phoenix Wright Ace Attorneys that will bring down teh Evil Sean Piche". Might wanna find a neopets forum where that kind of stuff impresses the general user base.
> ...



Okay we get it, you are "lebin master trole xD" from 4chan, you are so Alpha and such. Now can you please stop the shitposting and let us - the ones who care - continue with this thread? Thanks.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> The art theft is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.
> 
> 
> The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.
> ...




I have to Agree but there are good reasons they would do it One is branding rights, two is advertising without cost, there is traffic draw, 4 to get furries to log into IMVU to open accounts to take down stolen art and File DMCA's in hopes they stick around and start making profits for them on the sight. they stand to gain a huge Benefit. But they are underestimating the furry community in general. Your right Families are going to have a fit and IMVU will have to hide adult content paywalls the whole nine yards but they will do it subtly, they are not going to come right out and ban it right away. They are trying to let things simmer down before they slowly introduce changes. It makes complete sense why they would do this they now own the FAU con or a huge portion of it. Branding they own the Name FA FurAffinity and are thus entitled to royalties that come along with the name. they stand to make a fortune on this.the add space they can sell off to 3rd parties and make affiliate money for anyone who goes to them and buys something. 

Do you still think it makes no sense business wise it makes a lot of sense


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## Croconaw (Mar 24, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I think this thread has served its purpose anyway. Nothing's gonna change for the better, we're all aware of imvu's art theft problem now, and bitching about Neer is only entertaining for the 1st few hours after he's fucked up.




Agreed. 

It'd be best for this thread to get locked IMO and a new thread get created when whenever Dragoneer can properly address the issues brought up in this thread, granted he did skip over a lot of questions.




Tchelline said:


> Okay we get it, you are "lebin master trole xD" from 4chan, you are so Alpha and such. Now can you please stop the shitposting and let us - the ones who care - continue with this thread? Thanks.



No.


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## Volkodav (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It'd be best for this thread to get locked IMO and a new thread get created when whenever Dragoneer can properly address the issues brought up in this thread, granted he did skip over a lot of questions.
> 
> ...



No
If thisthread is locked, there won't be a second one
Knock it off, guys


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It'd be best for this thread to get locked IMO and a new thread get created when whenever Dragoneer can properly address the issues brought up in this thread, granted he did skip over a lot of questions.
> 
> ...



the thread should be bumped at least with discussion on how to deal with these problems , if its locked he'll just ignore it all


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## mcjoel (Mar 24, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Okay we get it, you are "lebin master trole xD" from 4chan, you are so Alpha and such. Now can you please stop the shitposting and let us - the ones who care - continue with this thread? Thanks.


Actually if you have red any of crocs previous posts you would see that he does indeed care about the subject at hand and you can take that to court.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 24, 2015)

Please stop bickering amongst yourselves, this is why people don't take these matters seriously as they see people arguing


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 24, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> No
> If thisthread is locked, there won't be a second one
> Knock it off, guys



 I really don't see Neer or IMVU coming back to answer questions. Time's up. The hour has past. That needlessly complicated legal action thing is just how it's gonna be. Fleshy's been a peach to point out the art thefts...but really, what else can be said in this thread?


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## apollisoffa (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm wondering how IMVU will handle all of this personally. Both fronts have been rather silent.


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## Red13Nanaki (Mar 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I don't care about user popularity, I care about helping people. That's all I've ever sought to do. I don't want any user feeling that they're uncomfortable being here, or we're not here to help. We are.



Yeah, just no.  I've seen, heard and experienced my fair share of problems to not believe that at all.  I had thewielder coming at me and sending his fans at me and you did nothing about it and it was the same thing for the other admin that answered the ticket.  Because no one wanted him to cause more problems by silencing him.  But when it comes to him making a fake threat towards the site he's instantly gone.  And then I had someone stalking and harassing me and my other half and nothing was done about it till months later.  The guy was spreading around nude photos of my other half and all I kept getting from multiple admins was a bunch of excuses because they didn't want to do anything about it and then I was ignored by you when I sent something about it.  If the same thing happened to your wife then they would have been gone instantly.  But since it was happening to someone that doesn't matter then who cares.

So don't even attempt to try and say that you care about everyone on the site despite how popular they are.  Because that is just complete bs.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I really don't see Neer or IMVU coming back to answer questions. Time's up. The hour has past. That needlessly complicated legal action thing is just how it's gonna be. Fleshy's been a peach to point out the art thefts...but really, what else can be said in this thread?



I'd like to keep it open even if it dies just in the event that news is posted or discovered.
I'm sure you know, Butters, that once a thread is locked you can't re-post about it.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I'd like to keep it open even if it dies just in the event that news is posted or discovered.
> I'm sure you know, Butters, that once a thread is locked you can't re-post about it.



This

If the thread is locked, people might come by thinking it is over and done with


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I'd like to keep it open even if it dies just in the event that news is posted or discovered.
> I'm sure you know, Butters, that once a thread is locked you can't re-post about it.



Well, they could temp lock it then re-open it when something new happens. But I guess that's just a Weaysl forums thing.


----------



## Featherwing15 (Mar 25, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'm a Croconaw IRL and I think that you're going about this like you were an eeveelution. Yup, I went there.
> 
> 
> Take this idle banter off of this thread. I'd rather it not turn into some stupid "Let's pretend we have a lawyer with teh contacts to make it seem like we're important Phoenix Wright Ace Attorneys that will bring down teh Evil Sean Piche". Might wanna find a neopets forum where that kind of stuff impresses the general user base.



And you know he's pretending how? I'd quit talking like you know everything, dude. It'll come back to bite you in your Water-type tail for assuming things.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I'd like to keep it open even if it dies just in the event that news is posted or discovered.
> I'm sure you know, Butters, that once a thread is locked you can't re-post about it.



Thus, due to this very particular reason, we must keep bumping the thread.

Also, for the ones who are ready to give up, this is exactly what Dragoneer wants: people getting bored and numb after a few days. Don't fall in his game. It's very simple strategy.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Featherwing, please chill out a bit. If y'all are going to talk to lawyers then talk to lawyers, but that sort of thing needs to be done amongst yourselves. We (the forums) can't help you with a lawsuit. This thread is for discussing the IMVU acquisition and what it entails for FA, as well as helping users find their stolen art.



Tchelline said:


> Also, for the ones who are ready to give up, this is exactly what Dragoneer wants: people getting bored and numb after a few days. Don't fall in his game. It's very simple strategy.


This is very important.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

But just be careful, he'll just ban anyone who makes any sense


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## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> But just be careful, he'll just ban anyone who makes any sense



Better than having another ten years of dictatorship and lies.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Better than having another ten years of dictatorship and lies.



Not really, if everyone who made sense was banned it would be a paradise of blind supporters


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> This is very important.



It's admirable to want to change an unfair system and all...but ya'll are just wasting your time. Real talk. If he gave a shit, he wouldn't have banned Rowe. Really, branching out to other sites is the best option anyone has...that and waiting to see what IMVU will do about the paywall.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

See, I disagree with this. I have nothing else to do with my time, why not use it to help people find stolen art? I could be doing nothing or I could be doing that. Even if screencaps will do nothing in the long run, at least artists know that their art has been taken and can choose to do what they wish with that (DMCA, leave FA, fight against IMVU, etc)
Sitting back and doing nothing does nothing.


----------



## TheArchiver (Mar 25, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> But just be careful, he'll just ban anyone who makes any sense



As if that solves anything. Not when Gyazo, Vivisector, Ferrox News Network, Tumblr, and many other outlets to expose him on exist. The more he senselessly bans, the worst it gets for him which is why he's smart in not having done so. He learned from 2013...by a small margin. It will be like a game of Lights Out. Stamp out one light and 4 more turn on around it, or in this case stamp out one problem (the wrong way) and you have 10 more.


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 25, 2015)

Strype seems to be having some fun.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Strype seems to be having some fun.
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/



See, this is what we need to see more of, this is the kind of PR we need, showing the end result of stolen art being corrected.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Strype seems to be having some fun.
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/



"I'm down several hundred dollars that I put into that account myself. I have never received a single dollar back from IMVU for what I did and contributed to that community, and now it's all gone and permanently banned. "

Boo fucking hoo
You stole art and got punished for it.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

let us just hope that us doing this will also improve things for IMVU,
again many of their users ARE helping us due to they are also sick and tired of stuff being stolen and being sold.
it further sucks due to it was shown earlier that VIPs are the one's selling.
WE cant do much about the black market one's that exist but we can at least deal with the official one


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Strype seems to be having some fun.
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/



A long-known butt-buddy of Dragoneer, it's obvious he was going to deffend Neer's bullshit.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> "I'm down several hundred dollars that I put into that account myself. I have never received a single dollar back from IMVU for what I did and contributed to that community, and now it's all gone and permanently banned. "
> 
> Boo fucking hoo
> You stole art and got punished for it.



Lol, that's what the little wanker gets for stealing artwork, Karma sure knows how to bitch slap those who steal and try to pass it off as their own. To the thief, I would love to say "Awww is the poor widdle thief all bittow that his pwecious awt was fwagged?" Ha, good riddance XD



Tchelline said:


> A long-known butt-buddy of Dragoneer, it's obvious he was going to deffend Neer's bullshit.


What are you basing that info off of, may I ask? The fact is that idiot who stole his art got his just desserts, that's what matters here, this is a small victory. The poor little butthurt thief paid for it, literally, and I'm laughing my arse off over his loss XDD


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> A long-known butt-buddy of Dragoneer, it's obvious he was going to deffend Neer's bullshit.



What is Neer's bullshit in this exact instance? Neer said he would get Strype's art removed, and he got it removed.
Honestly, what is the complaint here? His feelings or friendship or w/e with Neer don't matter, what I think we should all be concerned about with here is that at least 1 art thief is gone.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> What is Neer's bullshit in this exact instance? Neer said he would get Strype's art removed, and he got it removed.
> Honestly, what is the complaint here? His feelings or friendship or w/e with Neer don't matter, what I think we should all be concerned about with here is that at least 1 art thief is gone.



The art theft is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.

The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.

Right now they promise that they will not touch anything. But they refuse to show the contract, so we cant really trust their promises. It wouldn't be the first time that Dragoneer deceived us all.

IMVU, in order to protect themselves from what is obviously going to come, will have to insert restrictions to the adult content. Perhaps a Premium membership or just plainly banning adult art.

Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars with the sole and only purpose of getting money from furries getting into Imvu and the ads. However, they could have obtained THE SAME effect by simply buying Ad space, whose cost is only 1/20 of what they paid for the site.

I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment!

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](Sorry for it being a copypast but it answers the same question)[/FONT]


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Well giving 'Neer a pat on the back for helping Strype out doesn't mean we're excusing any and all wrongdoing on his part. It's just saying "thank you for helping him out".


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> "I'm down several hundred dollars that I put into that account myself. I have never received a single dollar back from IMVU for what I did and contributed to that community, and now it's all gone and permanently banned. "
> 
> Boo fucking hoo
> You stole art and got punished for it.


not to mention they were asked at first to remove it, and they pretended to do so to only get pointed out "no they still have it up"
They still had a chance to actually save their account, but instead took option B which eventually lead to being perma banned.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> not to mention they were asked at first to remove it, and they pretended to do so to only get pointed out "no they still have it up"
> They still had a chance to actually save their account, but instead took option B which eventually lead to being perma banned.



Hahaha, that makes it even funnier
I've got no respect for thieves. Theyv'e got no fucking room to sit and cry and shit their pants because they got banned. They know damn well they were making a profit off of that person's art long before they were caught. Strap on a clean diaper and straighten up you pissbabies


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

Every single person on this earth makes mistakes, some big, some small and there's no avoiding it. Shit happens, but this, the fact thieves are being punished, having stolen art is well, gives me a peace of mind.


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## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Every single person on this earth makes mistakes, some big, some small and there's no avoiding it. Shit happens, but this, the fact thieves are being punished, having stolen art is well, gives me a peace of mind.



Mistakes? Can you spend 20K in donatons by accident and sell a site by accident? Relax that whiteknighting, you guys relax too easily and forget how much is at stake.

edit: I have been in here since 2007, and in all that time I have not given two fucks about the past fucks ups courtesy of Dragoneer. However, this time, either his idiocy or excess of greed, have put in severe danger the furry artwork economy, and that is something that now affect me and anybody who sells comissions.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Relax that whiteknighting, you guys relax too easily and forget how much is at stake.



You've _got_ to be kidding me.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Mistakes? Can you spend 20K in donatons by accident and sell a site by accident? Relax that whiteknighting, you guys relax too easily and forget how much is at stake.



Because dwelling on the past on what could have been is SO much more productive, as is holding grudges, spreading rumors and being forever bitter about mistakes. Okay. Learning from the past, yes, living in the past, no. We get it, people are mad, no shit, but that is no reason to keep dragging and dragging and dragging. People can't hold grudges forever, it's asinine.



Volkodav said:


> You've _got_ to be kidding me.


My sentiments exactly.


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## Hermie (Mar 25, 2015)

IMVU receives money from stolen property. There is not only evidence to file a civil suit, there are criminal charges here, not to mention the possibility of criminal fraud on Dragoneer's part. If someone has the ability to pursue legal action, please do, and ASAP.


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## Migoto Da (Mar 25, 2015)

There is a difference between being justified in your concerns, and just hatemongering.
What you're doing is the latter, Tchelline. Dragoneer, while this is certainly a rare occurrence, did in fact get an art thief banned and kept true to his statements.

MOST of us harbour a negative bias against him, but do not let that cloud you to the good things he does do. While rare, he has made some good decisions.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Every single person on this earth makes mistakes, some big, some small and there's no avoiding it. Shit happens, but this, the fact thieves are being punished, having stolen art is well, gives me a peace of mind.



Dragoneer has 10 years of wrong doing, there is an entire forum dedicated to it

Also, is there any proof that the art thieves are being banned? Other than a journal with no picture evidence and mentions of names?

Also, even though the art theft has been happening before FA got bought out, doesn't that just show how little draggoneer looked into this site before he let them buy him? http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6603906/#cid:45006223 I asked him here but won't get a reply :c


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

lets not forget what Tchellin has stated, this is just the tip of the iceberg, when the parents of the 12-14 year olds discover that IMVU just bought a Porn site. It is considered a porn site lets not fool ourselves, and believe that just because we have some clean art we are not all porn. The simple truth is Paypal one of the largest money brokers on the net Lists Furaffinity as a porn site and bans all Accounts that are caught buy and selling items from Furaffinity. this means that if Paypal lists us as a porn site we are considered a Porn. It does not matter the G rated art is created and sold there, the sites demographic is indeed XXX. this stands for everything IMVU is not and after Varsha Posted a link to FA in a G rated site basically full of children and some adults it put a ugly stain on this whole deal even more. the parents are going to be pissed and if they find out they are going to ban their kids from using IMVU which will then cause IMVU to have to take some very drastic measures.



> Varsha would post the direct link to this site in the GA forum, knowing full well it's intended average product base. Over and over I read of how much smut and pornography is posted on this site. IMVU also discontinued use of any UFI product because they could then not advertise their gift cards in the likes of Wal-Mart and such. They wish to be seen as family friendly and by acquiring this site makes us question them now.



Case in point this Quote from Moonrivers who was a IMVU user that is also an adult that was in the room during the announcement. She had no idea what she was getting into when she logged in to see what site IMVU had purchased and was instantly bombarded with Adult content. I am sure you all know she was less then happy to see this, not to mention have Varsha announce this in a GA rated part of IMVU. This one event could trigger a back lash like no tomorrow. Nothing is resolved at this point. Because they may have to legally start implementing tougher restrictions on the site because of that one event. 

What Varsh did was totally uncalled for and it brought to light what they were really buying into. It may force IMVUs hands to become tied and they will have to put stricter rules on FA or maybe even Paywalls to quell the Rage that is going to back lash from this rather careless move.


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## Accountability (Mar 25, 2015)

Someone got banned from IMVU. Great. Most websites that allow users to upload content ban people when said content gets DMCA'd (Especially when there's more than one instance... Look at YouTube). I feel like that would have been the case regardless of whether or not IMVU owned FA. I think ya'll are giving Dragoneer a little too much credit. It reminds me of all the times before that people who had no clue how things work or what was going on would thank him for things like "Fighting the Trolls and stopping the DDoS" or something like he went out and strangled them with his bare hands. IMVU had a DMCA process in place long before Dragoneer showed up.

Again, if he has so much power, why isn't the stolen artwork just being deleted without a DDoS claim having to be filed?

Just sayin'.

EDIT: So reading Strype's post closer...



			
				Strype said:
			
		

> If you spot thefts, tell the artists. And artists, take note of who's selling your stuff and note Dragoneer about it. That's what I did less than 12 hours ago, and we're starting to see results.



So Strype sent Dragoneer a note and the person got banned. Even though the journal linked to at the top of FA says



			
				Fender Journal said:
			
		

> We may have stated before that you can flag and report products if you believe them to be copied from you, however, that is not correct information. DMCA is the only way to request action on such content.



So which one is it? I will also remind everyone that Strype was a FA United 6 Guest of Honor and should probably be considered heavily biased towards one side here.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

The general consensus seems to be that if you ever show any form of thanks to Dragoneer, it must mean that you want to go over and tongue the dude's asshole
You need to chill out. I know that Dragoneer has done bad shit, I know that he continues to do bad shit, I know that he bullshits when he comes in here, and no I won't forget thst. I won't forget the IMVU shit and I'm not going to back off or give up on this. Saying "thank you" for removing stolen art doesn't mean I'm saying "OKAY BRO GO EASY ON HIM he did a lil thing, chill out". 
I don't hate Dragoneer and I don't love him, I'm completely indifferent. One can be angry at what he does without raising your blood pressure and becoming infuriated
Y'all need to take some valium. The higher you are, the closer to God you are. Let Jesus deal with the wrongdoers.


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## ---Storm--- (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav, when I read your comment I was like "FINALLY, some general common sense and logic in here!". But then I got to that part:



Volkodav said:


> Y'all need to take some valium. The higher you are, the closer to God you are. Let Jesus deal with the wrongdoers.


O-o

No more drugs for you now! :-O


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## NoahGryphon (Mar 25, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> The art theft is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.
> 
> The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.
> 
> ...



stop being a paranoid nazi -_- IMVU is not going to fucking censor FA. they know that ANY censorship would make 99% of FA users leave. they would probably sell FA back to dragoneer for cheap instead of destroying FA, cause if FA died there would be less furries thus less IMVU customers.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

That's a legit concern though. Users have brought up before that in order for IMVU to sell it's gift cards at stores, it has to censor 18+ shit on it's site. Will this branch over to FA or FAF now that IMVU owns it? Will they be disallowed to advertise their gift cards?
You can't even say "shit" over on IMVU, to put it into perspective.
Whether or not they will or won't because "FA will die", if they _do_, people are going to lose their incomes _because_ of people leaving.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> That's a legit concern though. Users have brought up before that in order for IMVU to sell it's gift cards at stores, it has to censor 18+ shit on it's site. Will this branch over to FA or FAF now that IMVU owns it? Will they be disallowed to advertise their gift cards?
> You can't even say "shit" over on IMVU, to put it into perspective.
> Whether or not they will or won't because "FA will die", if they _do_, people are going to lose their incomes _because_ of people leaving.




+1 this its true moonriver said so herself saying that 


> That Varsha would post the direct link to this site in the GA forum, knowing full well it's intended average product base. Over and over I read of how much smut and pornography is posted on this site. IMVU also discontinued use of any UFI product because they could then not advertise their gift cards in the likes of Wal-Mart and such. They wish to be seen as family friendly and by acquiring this site makes us question them now.




this is a serious problem Varsha Exposed Children to FA and Announced it in open GA room. I have no clue what Varsha was thinking when they did this. It may force IMVU to comply when Families are in outrages.


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## NoahGryphon (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> That's a legit concern though. Users have brought up before that in order for IMVU to sell it's gift cards at stores, it has to censor 18+ shit on it's site. Will this branch over to FA or FAF now that IMVU owns it? Will they be disallowed to advertise their gift cards?
> You can't even say "shit" over on IMVU, to put it into perspective.
> Whether or not they will or won't because "FA will die", if they _do_, people are going to lose their incomes _because_ of people leaving.



if they do censor ANYTHING i WILL bomb IMVU's offices.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 25, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> if they do censor ANYTHING i WILL bomb IMVU's offices.



Noah...shush. You're making all us pink avians look loony. >.>;


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Varsha didn't "expose children to FA" any more than a child can "expose" themselves to Google while they use their computer by themselves. If a child signs up to FA with the correct birthdate, they won't see porn.


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

> So which one is it? I will also remind everyone that Strype was a FA United 6 Guest of Honor and should probably be considered heavily biased towards one side here.



It means you can get your stuff taken down just by asking, if you're part of Needs inner circle. The rest of you peons would have to file a DMCA because fuck you, that's why. Proof positive that him not being able to do anything was a lie and that IMVU doesn't care about working with artists.

And people see this move as a positive? It just highlights to me how little Neer cares and how this is business as usual on his part.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Emil said:


> It means you can get your stuff taken down just by asking, if you're part of Needs inner circle. The rest of you pions would have to file a DMCA because fuck you, that's why. Proof positive that him not being able to do anything was a lie and that IMVU doesn't care about working with artists.
> 
> And people see this move as a positive? It just highlights to me how little Neer cares and how this is business as usual on his part.



Please tell us what you're currently doing to help and what you believe we should do to help that doesn't involve helping artists get their art taken down.

Thank you!

Edit: my post came off as kind of rude so im sorry for that


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

its the fact she posted a porn site in a GA area and again this is a porn site and children can easily lie about their age. not to mention the adults came here and and had no idea what they were going to see. When they saw what was posted in a GA forum they were rather upset.they will complain to IMVU. Will this cost IMVU their walmart cards if so will FA be forced to comply we shall have to see. they should never have posted that in a GA site because adults that were there jumped over and saw exactly what the site is they will complain and things could get rather ugly.

I would like to take this moment to quote moonriver one of the adults that came over from IMVU to discover what they bought.





> *UFI (unfit for IMVU) products are not permitted on IMVU. There is an underground illegal user base in IMVU that sales UFI products on the blackmarket. You can Google IMVU blackmarket to satisfy your own curiosities. I will not hotlink them here. If you are found to be selling UFI products, you are immediately banned. This is what infuriates me that Varsha would post the direct link to this site in the GA forum, knowing full well it's intended average product base. Over and over I read of how much smut and pornography is posted on this site. IMVU also discontinued use of any UFI product because they could then not advertise their gift cards in the likes of Wal-Mart and such. They wish to be seen as family friendly and by acquiring this site makes us question them now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is IMVU's and I know FA and IMVU are supposed to remain separate but with their buying us out and plastering their name on our sight we may have to also see stricter rules for posting and age verification.


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Please tell us what you're currently doing to help and what you believe we should do to help that doesn't involve helping artists get their art taken down.
> 
> Thank you!




And you deflect my criticism by asking me, a person who neither supposedly runs the site nor has any actual power to act, what I'm doing to help.

Neither I, nor any FA user, have the obligation to help. I *would* however, like to think that IMVU and Neer, supposedly being the guardians of this site, do have that obligation. They however, have seemingly doubled down on the same policies that allowed the theft to get this extensive in the first place, policies they benefit from BTW, and outsourced the responsibility of detecting and correcting it onto the content creators.

Unless youre Neers friend apparently, in which case he will have it removed for you. Which he apparently can't do for anyone else, for some reason.

I mean, are you saying you're ok with him lying through his teeth about what he can do or ask to have done? He himself has said he's only been sending links to other artists (that they might not even be able to view) so they can report their own shit. Since he's already aware of these instances of theft, why is he not asking IMVU to just remove them? If he is, which he's never claimed, why are IMVU selectively doing so?


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## Kami-chan (Mar 25, 2015)

my art is in this one http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI

so what should i do with the theft?


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

do we have anywhere near an accurate count of how many art works were stolen yet?


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> do we have anywhere near an accurate count of how many art works were stolen yet?


last time I saw was past 300k


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Please tell us what you're currently doing to help and what you believe we should do to help that doesn't involve helping artists get their art taken down.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Edit: my post came off as kind of rude so im sorry for that



I had mentioned it more as a joke at first, but the more I think on it, the more I realize there may be some merit to trying to set up a group to act as agents for DMCA takedown requests.  By my understanding, the DMCA takedown need not come from the artist themselves so long as itâ€™s a designated agent or agency doing the requesting.
However, I am uncertain about whether or not it would be beneficial for artists not in the US to have an agent that is in the US.  Since the copyright ownerâ€™s status is the thing that matters, I kind of doubt it would matter; however, Iâ€™m not a lawyer and havenâ€™t dug through materials to even make an educated guess.

The problem, though, is that Iâ€™m just not keen on spending vast amounts of time for the next several months trying to put a dent into the problem.  It is time consuming to go through IMVU, get all the information necessary â€“ particularly the part where one has to identify the artist, confirm that its wrongly posted/that they are signed with the agency â€“ and then shoot off the completed paperwork to whoever at IMVU is handling it.  It is far more time than Iâ€™m looking to donate to the cause without any recompense. 

The problem with that is the fact that Iâ€™m not comfortable asking anything from the artist â€“ I mean, theyâ€™re the victim here, and Iâ€™d rather not be a prick who tries to bilk the victim to get a small measure of protection.  To wit, I do not believe that IMVU offers any compensation upon completion of an DMCA takedown; they keep their ill-gotten gains. 

Still, we could see about devising a sort of pro bono agency that would have volunteers going through IMVU and handling the takedown notices of artists who agreed to accept the volunteer service.  So far as I know, there is nothing preventing this other than the fact that itâ€™ll be a time suck without reward shy of a case of the warm and fuzzies. 

Hopefully that doesnâ€™t leave me sounding greedy; itâ€™s more a factor of the staggering amount of stolen work than an unwillingness to help.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

Holy Cow 300K this is beyond out of control


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 25, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> last time I saw was past 300k



Did you count those yourself? Looking the gallery on IMVU, it's a wonder anyone's able to find anything in there.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Varsha didn't "expose children to FA" any more than a child can "expose" themselves to Google while they use their computer by themselves. If a child signs up to FA with the correct birthdate, they won't see porn.



Well, yes and no.

They shouldn't see outright porn without lying, though IMVU would probably like more than a "I totally promise I'm not underage" honor based age verification system.

However, given the very conservative classification system that IMVU uses, wherein even fully clothed poses can be deemed suggestive on a whim, Varsha could be said to have exposed children to what IMVU itself deems to be unsuitable adult content.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

Its really starting to look like a class action suit is the best course of action since the number is so incredibly staggering. I mean 300,000 stolen art pieces, the amount of DMCA's would be far more work than its worth. This is a perfect example of how broke their system is. when they have 300,000 images that are stolen, its going to take a full out court case to put an end to this madness.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Did you count those yourself? Looking the gallery on IMVU, it's a wonder anyone's able to find anything in there.



There are people going out and hunting down content.  

Can't speak to how bad the searching is, I haven't been there and I prefer to keep it that way.  Realistically, though, I doubt we'll ever have anything approaching a definitive count.  

I'm also still a bit dubious that the DMCA takedowns won't just lead to a game of Whack-a-Mole without end.  Still, doing something trumps doing nothing; and until there is a better idea of how to progress, I may as well toss out anything I expect could be useful to the endeavor.


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> I had mentioned it more as a joke at first, but the more I think on it, the more I realize there may be some merit to trying to set up a group to act as agents for DMCA takedown requests.  By my understanding, the DMCA takedown need not come from the artist themselves so long as itâ€™s a designated agent or agency doing the requesting.
> However, I am uncertain about whether or not it would be beneficial for artists not in the US to have an agent that is in the US.  Since the copyright ownerâ€™s status is the thing that matters, I kind of doubt it would matter; however, Iâ€™m not a lawyer and havenâ€™t dug through materials to even make an educated guess.
> 
> The problem, though, is that Iâ€™m just not keen on spending vast amounts of time for the next several months trying to put a dent into the problem.  It is time consuming to go through IMVU, get all the information necessary â€“ particularly the part where one has to identify the artist, confirm that its wrongly posted/that they are signed with the agency â€“ and then shoot off the completed paperwork to whoever at IMVU is handling it.  It is far more time than Iâ€™m looking to donate to the cause without any recompense.
> ...



IMVU is a corporation with millions of dollars of revenues. Why should the furry community provide a service for free to mitigate their fuckups for them? Stop supporting your own exploitation.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> Its really starting to look like a class action suit is the best course of action since the number is so incredibly staggering. I mean 300,000 stolen art pieces, the amount of DMCA's would be far more work than its worth. This is a perfect example of how broke their system is. when they have 300,000 images that are stolen, its going to take a full out court case to put an end to this madness.



First off, I seem to recall that being granted class action status is not an easy undertaking that was made all the more difficult in the last several years by SCOTUS ruling.  (Don't know the ins and outs, though; it's been a while.)

Second, say there was a lawsuit, who is paying for it?  I honestly don't see a lawfirm willing to undertake a fight of this magnitude without a paycheck to match.  Even at a discounted price, the discovery process alone would be staggeringly expensive because it would require categorizing all the user generated content at IMVU; then you have to figure who did what and when, and whether or not it was submitted with the approval of the creator -- assuming the creator is still holding rights to their work and doesn't mind attaching their full legal name to their porn in what will be a public court record for ages to come.  

Third, I'm sure someone will float the idea of a firm that would take on the case on contingency, where the firm only gets paid if they win and the payment comes directly from the winnings.  Best of luck on that.  If I were running a law firm, I wouldn't want to come within 10 feet of that; it is going to be a lengthy fight with a very small chance at being compensated for my firm's time, much less for there to be anything left over for artists.  IMVU would be bankrupt before any artist saw a dime; and the cost of bankrupting them far outweighs the sort of money anyone is going to devote to fighting the case.  

I don't mean to whizz on your Wheaties here, but I don't see this as being a fruitful approach to solving the problem.  

And before you ask, no.  I don't have a better idea at the moment.   Even if we could buy FA back, it won't stop IMVU's users from stealing art and IMVU pocketing the profits.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Emil said:


> IMVU is a corporation with millions of dollars of  revenues. Why should the furry community provide a service for free to  mitigate their fuckups for them? Stop supporting your own  exploitation.





I'm merely explaining an option and regretting the way the DMCA system is being used in this example to externalize the cost of screening and enforcement.

If people want to go down that particular avenue and I had an idea that might help them in their endeavor, it'd be kind of a dick move to not offer it up, right?  You could argue otherwise if there is a more useful approach on the table, but I'm not seeing any that don't involve lawyers willing to do furries a solid by taking on a troublesome case that has a very small chance of being worth anyone's time.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Did you count those yourself? Looking the gallery on IMVU, it's a wonder anyone's able to find anything in there.


no I may have been half asleep when I posted that sorry
a user have been giving us general screenshots of the AP area which so far is 1458 images
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL

The majority of images are in the GA area though


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## Hermie (Mar 25, 2015)

It was already stated there's a couple lawyers who are Furries that are already working on this. We're everywhere, remember? 


"Remember this. The people you're trying to step on, we're everyone you depend on. We're the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We make your bed. We guard you while you're asleep. We drive the ambulances. We direct your call. We are cooks and taxi drivers and we know everything about you. We process your insurance claims and credit card charges. We control every part of your life.

We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we'll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won't. And we're just learning this fact. So don't fuck with us."


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Hermie said:


> It was already stated there's a couple lawyers who are Furries that are already working on this. We're everywhere, remember?
> 
> 
> "Remember this. The people you're trying to step on, we're everyone you depend on. We're the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We make your bed. We guard you while you're asleep. We drive the ambulances. We direct your call. We are cooks and taxi drivers and we know everything about you. We process your insurance claims and credit card charges. We control every part of your life.
> ...



See, here's the problem: if I were running a law firm, I see this as  being a nightmare.  You've got billable hours, sure, but you have  clients who cannot pay, so now you are paying out of pocket and passing  up work that is both profitable and promising chasing a case that isn't  ideal that has limited winnings available.  

If I were a lawyer,  I'd rather not be outed by this case if I wasn't already.  Even if the  odds were small, I don't want the partners at my law firm backing away  from me, and I certainly don't want to risk it screwing with my chances  to become a partner someday; I don't want to risk negatively impacting  how I appear before the court because while Lady Justice may be blind,  she isn't deaf and I don't trust people to not be biased.  Even if I  were fine being outed personally, it's still a move that could reduce my  ability to serve my clients.  

So, look, if the lawyer thing is  true, that's fantastic.  I'm not going to put my faith in unknown people  promising lawyerly action.  

Last but not least, if you haven't  had a foray into the legal system, please allow me to explain how it  works:  you're going to lose.  Even if you win, you lose.  The other  guys have every incentive to drag the case on and on; discovery is going  to be profoundly expensive, assuming you even get that far; and the  sheer amount of paralegal work involved in organizing all that content  and figuring out who owns what is going to be more than the value of  IMVU itself; and, even if all of that didn't slow you down, you still  have the simple fact that you could lose.  

The only possible law  avenue that seems likely to hold water would be if Dragoneer wrongfully  sold something he only owned 50% of; and you know what?  I want to  believe it.  I really, really want to believe that's the case.  It is  such a profoundly happy thing if true that it's practically  intoxicating!  Except I have seen zero evidence and one should not be  swayed toward thinking something likely just because it is something  they want to happen.

So look, I'm not a fan of getting my hopes  up on these sort of things.  We're on the wrong side of probability and  I'd rather not be crushed when it turns out that Super Furries aren't  going to swoop down from the heavens to save the day and I wind up  realizing my home was hijacked while I slept.  If I'm wrong, I'm going  to be very happy; but I've got no reason yet to bet that I am wrong, and  so I'm going to manage my expectations.  

Hope, but don't hope blindly.

My  hope is that FA may be purchased back at some point, whether or not I  can be party to that event.  It won't stop IMVU's business model, but it  is a goal that I think I can at least influence.  

I don't want to be drunk and placated with wild hopes that someone else will save my ass; I've got to stay focused, I've got to avoid the fights I have no reason to think I can win, and I've got to be ready to be useful if and when the opportunity arises.  c.c  That's my motivation here; I'm really not setting out to be a Debbie Downer.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Hiya Kami,

All you can do is scroll back a couple pages to where people had a mock DMCA takedown request, fill out a copy, and send it in.  

That is literally all anyone can do at this time.  >.o


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Noah...shush. You're making all us pink avians look loony. >.>;



Dude, you think you got it bad?

I'm _purple_.  This whole thing is screwing it up for my people.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 25, 2015)

F*cking purple, you know there's a thing called the purple people eater, right?


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> F*cking purple, you know there's a thing called the purple people eater, right?




Looks like a flying purple people eater to me!

One eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater sure looks strange to me!  ^.^


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 25, 2015)

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/



> So, the other day I found someone selling my art on IMVU. I asked him to take it down, and he said he did. Then I saw the thread in the forum that showed the Access Pass Only stuff, and my stuff was still there. *So, I poked Dragoneer about it.* I -JUST got this PM



Is anyone else wondering why Strypes gets to 'Poke Dragoneer about it' when everyone else *must* to go through a DMCA process?  This seems like special treatment for a certain class of furry artist.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else wondering why Strypes gets to 'Poke Dragoneer about it' when everyone else *must* to go through a DMCA process?  This seems like special treatment for a certain class of furry artist.



Not to sound evil, but no.

I do not wonder.  Nor am I shocked, and I donâ€™t even really fault him.

If someone close to me was getting harmed and I was in a position to speed the recovery, Iâ€™d do the same, even if I could not do that for everyone else.  Again, thatâ€™s why Iâ€™m a proponent of not leaving that sort of power in one personâ€™s hands.  Just because I would be tempted to help my people first does not make it right; and itâ€™s why I keep harping on spreading power as even the mere appearance of favoritism or corruption is destructive.  One need not worry about anotherâ€™s intent or temptations if said other lacks the capability to act, though.  ("The enemy cannot press a button if you_ disable his hand!"  _  It applies to more than just Starship Troopers!)


----------



## Accountability (Mar 25, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else wondering why Strypes gets to 'Poke Dragoneer about it' when everyone else *must* to go through a DMCA process?  This seems like special treatment for a certain class of furry artist.



B-b-but Dragoneer is NOT helping popular people!!! He's just helping _people_!

_How_ he helps all these people seems to vary though. I am shocked. Shocked I say!


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 25, 2015)

Accountability said:


> B-b-but Dragoneer is NOT helping popular people!!! He's just helping _people_!
> 
> _How_ he helps all these people seems to vary though. I am shocked. Shocked I say!



I know, how _horrible_! I mean, he's got his negative image to maintain!


----------



## RCRuskin (Mar 25, 2015)

Finally, here on page 50, I get access to FA forums again!

My lawyer, who specializes in business law, laughed a big laugh when I told him what happened. To IMVU's relief, I'm sure, he also told me I personally do not have a case, but he did raise a question:

What about financial damages to those whose artwork was stolen and traded without their knowledge? They should get at least a percentage of the sale.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Mar 25, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> Finally, here on page 50, I get access to FA forums again!
> 
> My lawyer, who specializes in business law, laughed a big laugh when I told him what happened. To IMVU's relief, I'm sure, he also told me I personally do not have a case, but he did raise a question:
> 
> What about financial damages to those whose artwork was stolen and traded without their knowledge? They should get at least a percentage of the sale.



This is why you don't boast about your big lawsuit plans without even talking to a lawyer first. :X


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

Very few of them would have registered their copyrights and it is my understanding that you are not entitled to monetary damages unless you actually register the copyright.

The most they can do is issue a DMCA and take them to court to force a takedown if necessary.


----------



## Kitoth (Mar 25, 2015)

After all the posts and journalsand backlash etc I finally had to put my two cents in to all of this.

First and foremost I am not an artist at all, i do follow a lot of artist that is for sure... anyway with that out for the way here are some points i'd like to make.

1: Before this whole IMVU\Fa thing was announced the art theft was going on on IMVU and not just there but Second life as well. so all this rage at FA and Imvu is sort of redundant in my opinion.

2: So many artist are either thinking about moving to another site, be it sofurry, weasly, etc but come on be realistic here, do you think because you moved to a different site no one will try to steal art form that site and use it on IMVU, Second life or some other place. I mean hell look at e621 site, tons of art from various artists up for grabs and no one has complained about that site.

3: For artist that many many follow on here and leave to another site or just leave the fandom do you think about those who follow you and commission from you? sometimes i wonder because some have moved to another site and traffic is low and some change there name so some users do not know who they are anymore and I'm sure some just stop because they do not want to have to go to multiple sites, for all they follow, and yes i am referring to inkbunny, sofurry, tumblr, weasly, DA and here. I mean that is a lot to follow.. Also some artist who do go to another site never tell anyone they left leaving many wondering where they are. no journal or pic to say " Hey i am no longer posting here"

I guess in short, if you don't want your art stolen, don't post it online at all. If you want to leave Fa let you fans know where and if your changing your name. don't just leave and expect everyone to know where you went. we are not mind readers here. Lastly if you for once think any site is safe out there even a pay site then you really do not know much about the internet, no place is safe as long as 1 person posts to another site without your knowledge.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Emil said:


> Very few of them would have registered their copyrights and it is my understanding that you are not entitled to monetary damages unless you actually register the copyright.
> 
> The most they can do is issue a DMCA and take them to court to force a takedown if necessary.



Negative.

Copyright attaches immediately upon creation of the work.  Registering just makes lawsuits easier, but it isn't a requirement.  

Here's the snag artists are going to run into:

Artist: They stole my art and profited, I demand recompense!
Lawyer: Well, there is a nonrefundable retainer of $500.
Artist: How much could I get if I win?
Lawyer: A portion of proceeds.  Maybe $50? ..sir?  Sir!  Why are you bashing your head into my desk?!

And  to even get that much, I think you have to show they created a  situation in which they knowingly* profited from items they knew*to be stolen.
You can argue that they _should have known_, as in cases of willful ignorance; you can't do that Enron-style "Yes I'm CFO, but I don't understand math!" excuse.  

Either  way, the cost of arguing the case far exceeds the compensation you're  going to get because you'd only be going after IMVU's share of the gains  directly stemming from the theft -- and if you went after each user  individually, well, that's got the same problem but for different  reasons.  You have to subpena IMVU for user information, track down each  user, tie user to legal person/entity, and sue each individually.  The  cost of even going down that road far exceeds any possible gains. 

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I've experienced enough to strongly believe this avenue has a negative expected value; you could do it just to make IMVU spend money and/or effort, but I'm not looking to piss away my funds just to make IMVU a little less rich.


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Negative.
> 
> Copyright attaches immediately upon creation of the work.  Registering just makes lawsuits easier, but it isn't a requirement.
> 
> ...



http://copyright.gov:8081/help/faq/faq-general.html#automatic



> Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?
> 
> Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section â€œCopyright Registrationâ€ and Circular 38b, Highlights of Copyright Amendments Contained in the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), on non-U.S. works.



This implies to me that's the only way you're getting money to me. But that's just the way I interpret it. Could be wrong *shrug*


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## RedSavage (Mar 25, 2015)

Kitoth said:


> After all the posts and journalsand backlash etc I finally had to put my two cents in to all of this.
> 
> First and foremost I am not an artist at all, i do follow a lot of artist that is for sure... anyway with that out for the way here are some points i'd like to make.
> 
> ...



Lemme use a half-hammered metaphor. 

Not everyone is anti-government. But we all do disagree with, say, China's politics. And the way they undermine our economy through forced labor. ( I know we willingly outsource to them anyways, but this is just a fucking metaphore)

So say one day the US join Russia and says, "We are now part of Russia! We still are the same, and nothing will change, and we will benefit greatly for it!"


Would you be okay with this?
Would you really believe it?
Would you not be upset from someone willingly giving up our lively hood to someone who constantly undermines it and doesn't give a shit how?


Your apathetic and defending attitude, quite frankly, dissappoints me.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Kitoth said:


> After all the posts and journalsand backlash etc I finally had to put my two cents in to all of this.
> 
> First and foremost I am not an artist at all, i do follow a lot of artist that is for sure... anyway with that out for the way here are some points i'd like to make.
> 
> 1: Before this whole IMVU\Fa thing was announced the art theft was going on on IMVU and not just there but Second life as well. so all this rage at FA and Imvu is sort of redundant in my opinion.



1) Bob & Sue
Bob is married to Sue, heâ€™s loving the exclusive relationship and his wife.
Bob and Sue have a friend named Steve.
Steve has been getting with Sue every other Tuesday for the last few years.
Bob just found out about it and is understandably irate, so he confronts Sue.
So Sue snaps, â€œOh, _now_ you care but Iâ€™ve doing fucking Steve for *years!*â€ 

See, Bob is upset because Bob didnâ€™t know for years; Bob just found out.  Thatâ€™s the situation here, almost no one had ever heard of IMVU, much less was aware of all the theft and fraud.  The problem may not be new, but people are just now confronting it; thatâ€™s kind of a vital note.




Kitoth said:


> 2: So many artist are either thinking about moving to another site, be it sofurry, weasly, etc but come on be realistic here, do you think because you moved to a different site no one will try to steal art form that site and use it on IMVU, Second life or some other place. I mean hell look at e621 site, tons of art from various artists up for grabs and no one has complained about that site.



2) IMVU vs e621
The key difference here is that e621 isnâ€™t profiting from it, to the best of my knowledge.  (Full disclosure: I use e621 all the time, it enjoys the benefit of a tagging system people are forced to use; Iâ€™ve found many an artist there.  To me there is a very, very clear difference between profitless copyright violation and profiting from stolen goods, but thatâ€™s another matter altogether.  I have no doubt that plenty of artists arenâ€™t thrilled with e621, though, which why there is a Do Not Post list that is followed rather closely.)

The fact that IMVU is profiting directly from mass theft, and rather nakedly at that, makes the crime seem a great deal more organized and wrong than anything e621 has ever done.   (I could be wrong on that, though; I appreciate correction if I am, but I don't think the ads on e621 actually turn a profit.)



Kitoth said:


> 3: For artist that many many follow on here and leave to another site or just leave the fandom do you think about those who follow you and commission from you? sometimes i wonder because some have moved to another site and traffic is low and some change there name so some users do not know who they are anymore and I'm sure some just stop because they do not want to have to go to multiple sites, for all they follow, and yes i am referring to inkbunny, sofurry, tumblr, weasly, DA and here. I mean that is a lot to follow.. Also some artist who do go to another site never tell anyone they left leaving many wondering where they are. no journal or pic to say " Hey i am no longer posting here"
> 
> I guess in short, if you don't want your art stolen, don't post it online at all. If you want to leave Fa let you fans know where and if your changing your name. don't just leave and expect everyone to know where you went. we are not mind readers here. Lastly if you for once think any site is safe out there even a pay site then you really do not know much about the internet, no place is safe as long as 1 person posts to another site without your knowledge.



3) Abandonment vs Branching Out
I donâ€™t think too many artists are outright fleeing FA at this point, and many of the ones that are afford to do so are the big names where enough people will follow that it wonâ€™t wreck their finances.  Fishermen are going to cast their nets where they know the fish to be, not where theyâ€™re going to be when some future event happens; right now FA is leading the pack and that isnâ€™t going to change in 2015 unless IMVU does something drastic.
However, artists and users alike should be encouraged to branch out and spread their existence so that all their eggs arenâ€™t in the same proverbial basket.  This should act as a wake up call to some and a reminder to others than we shouldnâ€™t be invested in FA to such a degree that we all ignore the cousin sites.  To that end, people should be saving art that they like and syncing their watch lists as best they can manage between the other sites.  In short, it is about being prepared to survive on the off chance FA goes to hell without warning. 

Still, Iâ€™m not faulting people for ditching if they do; itâ€™s better to worry before itâ€™s too late to act, but I prefer to stay and try to influence things as best I can.  Thatâ€™s the entire reason I gave up complete anonymity and stopped biting my tongue. 

Lastly, I agree.  Nowhere is safe and I oughtnâ€™t have been so complacent that I came to believe FA would always be FA; I regret that, it was a stupid mistake on my part.  Semper vigilans, right?  And always be prepared.


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## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 25, 2015)

I truly and honestly don't know what's going to happen.
Either everything will change.
Or nothing will.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *Vaelarsa*
> 
> _The next time one of them tries it, just use the gayest accent you can muster, and say "Chh. Honey, unless you got a penis under that skirt, I am sooo not even listening right now" and walk away._


_

ROFLMAO_


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Emil said:


> http://copyright.gov:8081/help/faq/faq-general.html#automatic
> 
> 
> 
> This implies to me that's the only way you're getting money to me. But that's just the way I interpret it. Could be wrong *shrug*



Huh.

Okay, here's how I'm reading that: you can file and retroactively be granted recognized status from the date of proven creation.  So you don't have to file when the work is created, but you do have to file along the way to filing a lawsuit.  Right?

Step 1: Find stolen content
Step 2: Talk to lawyer
Step 3: File for recognized copyright
Step 4: Sue

..I think. >.>

[Edit/Addition]
I mean, if it isn't that way, then there would be minimal advantage to the fact that copyright automatically attaches upon creation.  
Or am I utterly missing something here?


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

Don't forget to mention that sueing is expensive and you may not get much after all the lawyer fees. So its really not worth it in the long run, Sueing sounds like a great way to go but when you really think about it lawyers are going to Take a huge Chunk of your winnings leaving you with maybe 50 bucks.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> Don't forget to mention that sueing is expensive and you may not get much after all the lawyer fees. So its really not worth it in the long run, Sueing sounds like a great way to go but when you really think about it lawyers are going to Take a huge Chunk of your winnings leaving you with maybe 50 bucks.



Exactly what I was saying above.    I mean, itâ€™s one of those things that if you hit that $500Million Mega Millions Jackpot and want to have some fun, then itâ€™s viable. 

This is sort of the reverse of those nuisance patent lawsuits that go around.  Theyâ€™ll say that youâ€™re in violation of such-and-such because they own patent #Pi and theyâ€™re very upset about the violation.  However, theyâ€™d be willing to sell you a license for, say, $3,500. 

Why $3,500?  Because they know itâ€™s almost surely going to be $5,000 to start any sort of fight; and thatâ€™s if the patent it just absolutely absurd because invalidating a patent it just ridiculously expensive.  The number is specifically designed so that it isnâ€™t worth your time to fight it, but it also isnâ€™t worth the liability to ignore it.

Simply said, the intellectual property laws in the United States may be flawed.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> 1) Bob & Sue
> Bob is married to Sue, heâ€™s loving the exclusive relationship and his wife.
> Bob and Sue have a friend named Steve.
> Steve has been getting with Sue every other Tuesday for the last few years.
> ...



And Bob was showing off Sue very frequently to the local population. Some of these people may find Sue very attractive and try to steal her away, a fact which Bob may or may not be aware of. The only question remains, who ELSE has been getting with Sue for all these years?



RedSavage said:


> Lemme use a half-hammered metaphor.
> 
> Not everyone is anti-government. But we all do disagree with, say, China's politics. And the way they undermine our economy through forced labor. ( I know we willingly outsource to them anyways, but this is just a fucking metaphore)
> 
> ...



Not really, no, but I don't know IMVU nearly as much as I know Russia. I'd compare it to another random country I know little about, maybe Myanmar or something?


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

"If you didn't own this and leave it lying around, I wouldn't have taken it! And stop dressing like a harlot while you're at it!"

*edit* This is called victim blaming. Its bad.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> And Bob was showing off Sue very frequently to the local population. Some of these people may find Sue very attractive and try to steal her away, a fact which Bob may or may not be aware of. The only question remains, who ELSE has been getting with Sue for all these years?



A fine question!    I just _know_ if there's pictures anywhere on 'net, they're bound to be on IMVU by now!  Available in poster format for a reasonable price, even!

Quick, someone run a search!


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## Runefox (Mar 25, 2015)

This whole lawsuit thing seems to be pointing in the wrong direction; IMVU specifically declines to provide any damages for sold works, and I suppose the fact that they're purchased with funbux insulates them from that responsibility despite being compelled to respond to DMCA claims. Whether or not that's legal is a decision for the courts, but it seems to me that it could go either way and isn't a battle worth fighting since no one stands to gain anything.

The big sticking point that seems like it's ripe for legal picking is the fact that AP content is hidden from view and there is no obvious, legitimate method for discovering what is behind it without first paying for the privilege. It implies specific intent to prevent copyright holders from discovering abuse in order to continue to profit both from VIP passes and from sales of the stolen content. *In effect, they're using stolen content as incentives to drive sales both to their VIP section and credits to purchase these items*. This obviously spreads further than the furry subset, as there's plenty of copyrighted works in anime and other categories of artwork as well being sold. The VIP section itself contains as many or more pieces of adult furry content as the GA store does clean, and virtually all of it (at least the vast majority) is stolen. The problem, then, becomes one of gathering enough copyright holders with enough at collective stake to make a lawsuit worthwhile, since the cost of combating IMVU would be great.

With that in mind, I'm not sure that legal action is the best decision. We can however agree that the business practices are despicable at best, and a middle finger to the artists whose main source of distribution these people now own. No amount of damage control will save them from this beyond a complete restructuring of their store, and frankly, *I don't think they have the motivation to do it*.

Anyway, Dragoneer bending over for popular artists, surprising no one. More at 11.

EDIT: lol @ the art thief being all salty about losing his stolen art business


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

I am compelled to agree with you here, I mean its costly to form a lawsuit and you may get nothing back from it in the end. THey will simply say the Pay wall is to deter minors and thus can beat your claim. Really it seems the only course is the GO the Long drawn out BS DMCA file system way. unfortunately with the sheer amount of stolen art its beyond ridiculous the number of claims that are going to have to be filed. Besides that What Moonriver said the people selling can edit change the image at will and even the description. so what was furry stolen art is no longer and when you file your DMCA they get it look at the piece and say nope not a legal claim and deny you only to later have the seller change it back and earn money on it again


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

And here I was thinking that this conversation wasn't going anywhere lol. One shouldn't have to file a claim to get their art back, to go through a convoluted process. All the argumentum ad hominem against 'Neer, talks of lawsuits and damages, and people say drama is boring


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

I never heard anyone ever say its boring if anything its entertaining.


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## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

IMVU is a for profit business. The only way you could influence them to do anything is by hitting them where it hurts: their wallet.

I think we've established that lawsuits won't work.

I think we've established that filing DMCAs is their current policy, and it isn't nearly adequate.

So as far as I can see, the only options anyone would have to attempt to actually change IMVUs policy and hurt their wallet would be boycott and direct action.

But I doubt anyone here would actually do that or even take the idea seriously *shrug*


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> I never heard anyone ever say its boring if anything its entertaining.


I just wish Dragoneer had the balls to actually make a new journal entry and explain everything that's been going on in depth, including why he wasn't being transparent about the business deal two bloody months ago. Was there some kind of non-disclosure agreement he was forced to sign at gunpoint, forcing him not to tell anyone until it was too late? There is no reason for him NOT to tell the members on FA what's going on. Nothing is inhibiting him from doing so.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Runefox said:


> This whole lawsuit thing seems to be pointing in the wrong direction; IMVU specifically declines to provide any damages for sold works, and I suppose the fact that they're purchased with funbux insulates them from that responsibility despite being compelled to respond to DMCA claims. Whether or not that's legal is a decision for the courts, but it seems to me that it could go either way and isn't a battle worth fighting since no one stands to gain anything.
> 
> The big sticking point that seems like it's ripe for legal picking is the fact that AP content is hidden from view and there is no obvious, legitimate method for discovering what is behind it without first paying for the privilege. It implies specific intent to prevent copyright holders from discovering abuse in order to continue to profit both from VIP passes and from sales of the stolen content. *In effect, they're using stolen content as incentives to drive sales both to their VIP section and credits to purchase these items*. This obviously spreads further than the furry subset, as there's plenty of copyrighted works in anime and other categories of artwork as well being sold. The VIP section itself contains as many or more pieces of adult furry content as the GA store does clean, and virtually all of it (at least the vast majority) is stolen. The problem, then, becomes one of gathering enough copyright holders with enough at collective stake to make a lawsuit worthwhile, since the cost of combating IMVU would be great.
> 
> ...



I agree, with the sole exception of the guy who may own 50%, I don't feel as though there is any legal action that is likely to be a net positive -- and even then, I have zero faith in this claim until I see some sort of hard evidence.  I hope it's so, I'd very much like it, but I'm not going to sit and hope and do nothing else.

I agree with your description of IMVU's business model; however, they are going to claim that the payment to reach AP areas is merely incidental, as is their profiting from stolen content.  The whole thing is ugly, but people have been hiding content behind paywalls without anyone policing things behind it for a very long time.  Either there is case law that offers some manner of shield or no one has really felt it worthwhile to throw money at it and/or settled before a ruling could be issued.

Either way, no amount of action on our part is likely to change IMVU's business model, which is what revamping the store would likely entail; the problem is _that_ big for them.

In the end, my primary objective is getting FA back into fandom hands.  I just don't have a great way of dealing with the art theft; and, to be brutally honest, if I had to choose between getting FA back or fixing IMVU's store, I'm going with FA.  I feel the odds are better, I at least have a slight chance of possibly influencing things to play out in that direction, and it's where my interests lie.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

I totally agree with you that we need to get FA back in the hands of the community but this time rather than Have one person own and run it Have a full Board running a team of admins and a team of PR's as well as a team of techs all have to be volunteers at first though. then Follow the model I discussed in the journal earlier.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> I just wish Dragoneer had the balls to actually make a new journal entry and explain everything that's been going on in depth, including why he wasn't being transparent about the business deal two bloody months ago. Was there some kind of non-disclosure agreement he was forced to sign at gunpoint, forcing him not to tell anyone until it was too late? There is no reason for him NOT to tell the members on FA what's going on. Nothing is inhibiting him from doing so.



Youâ€™ll be waiting a long time for those sorts of answers, I reckon.

The NDAâ€™s two month embargo would likely have been made to make sure that no one could scuttle the deal before things could be cemented.  I get the feeling that if the conversation came up in public, there would have been enough outrage that IMVU would want to pull out â€“ and maybe Dragoneer would get an offer that was better than he got from IMVU.  So for both parties had reasons to keep things quiet for fear that the other may ditch the deal.
The only thing I donâ€™t really understand about the NDA is why no one was prepared to get ahead of this backlash. I mean, if you had 60 days to figure out how to break the news, you would suspect that someone more comprehensive would have been prepared, right?  I sort of wonder if Dragoneer thought IMVU was going to handle PR; I mean, PR isnâ€™t his forte.  (Nothing against that, there is a reason people are trained for that job.  Itâ€™s too careful to go too far in an excited moment and try to polish the unpolishable â€“ thatâ€™s where that deleted tweet comes in.  Itâ€™s exactly what Iâ€™d say if I was having too much fun playing devilâ€™s advocate to care about the repercussions.)  Either way, I feel that they squandered an opportunity to get ahead of the outrage â€“ that, or Dragoneer is  meant to keep taking the outrage to tire people out and distract them from directing their anger towards IMVU.  (If the latter is the case, I wonder if he knew that was going to be in his job description..)
Depending on the NDA, I imagine that the nitty-gritty is still protected unless the other party consents to its disclosure.  Thatâ€™s why weâ€™ll never get the information; unless they wrote in an expiration date (why would they?), itâ€™s a permanent agreement with assigned penalties for breaches.  It is what it is.

On an unrelated note Iâ€™ve heard the $20,000 purchase price a few places now, was this just a hypothetical number or is there a basis?  Itâ€™d be hilarious, given that there was about that much from the fundraiser which IMVU got in the purchase â€“ that means heâ€™d have given away FA for free in exchange for a steady job, which would pay off over time and not be subject to splitting with any devs.  However, that is so silly, I suspect that figure came from someone mixing up the fundraising amount with the purchase price.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Emil said:


> IMVU is a for profit business. The only way you could influence them to do anything is by hitting them where it hurts: their wallet.
> 
> I think we've established that lawsuits won't work.
> 
> ...



It isnâ€™t cynicism in this case, its realism.  We can avoid joining IMVU and clicking on 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] party ads, but few people on FA are their customers.  We cannot give less than nothing, so there isnâ€™t really much we can do is refuse assimilation and hope that dampens their bottom line.

We lack leverage, it is as simple as that.


----------



## Featherwing15 (Mar 25, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> I just wish Dragoneer had the balls to actually make a new journal entry and explain everything that's been going on in depth, including why he wasn't being transparent about the business deal two bloody months ago. Was there some kind of non-disclosure agreement he was forced to sign at gunpoint, forcing him not to tell anyone until it was too late? There is no reason for him NOT to tell the members on FA what's going on. Nothing is inhibiting him from doing so.



Blame the NDA, dear, that's the main reason 'neer is a clam.


----------



## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> We lack leverage, it is as simple as that.



Basically, you do the same thing people do when they protest anything else. You would need to be as disruptive as possible to "business as usual" Basically, engage in civil disobedience.

A few suggestions:

1) Everyone turn on adblock
2) Collect like minded users together to start making submissions on FA and even IMVU denouncing IMVUs policies concerning DMCAs and stolen artwork. Get them to keep submitting in a way that wouldn't be considered "spam" so shouldn't really be removed under the rules.
3) Have said users bombard FA and IMVUs emails with messages expressing disapproval for their policies. Keep doing it.
4) Hell, you could even go into IMVU and engage in digital "sit ins"

Problem is, you need a large amount of people willing to lend support and actually give a real damn for this to work. But this is ultimately just about furry porn, so nobody probably takes this matter seriously.


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 25, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars



Can I get a citation on that? Seriously. Has he confirmed the sale price anywhere?


----------



## Blitza (Mar 25, 2015)

annnnddd did we all wish Happy Birthday our Leader Neer like the tonns of Brainless furs on his main page ?

Back to Topic:

I would buy FA back but first it costs sure alot more then Neer got for it since IMVU is hard on Money sucking and then i would Need an complete trustw worthy Team and honist thats hard to find....

So the best would be if Neer van broken would make the Deal reverse and get some competent People in FAÂ´s Team


----------



## Blitza (Mar 25, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> Can I get a citation on that? Seriously. Has he confirmed the sale price anywhere?




If that would be true, how would IMVU come up with that Money when they pretty broken before whas ?

I wonder who really would pay 20.000 for FA when they have 0 Profit, maybe People who are pretty sick XD


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Blitza said:


> If that would be true, how would IMVU come up with that Money when they pretty broken before whas ?
> 
> I wonder who really would pay 20.000 for FA when they have 0 Profit, maybe People who are pretty sick XD




Actually, a fair number of people.  While I cannot afford that by myself, I'd merrily work with other investors to better that offer.

As has been discussed elsewhere, Dragoneer turned down an offer of $50,000 prior to finalizing the IMVU deal; one more reason to doubt the $20,000 figure.  Either way, I'm still hoping something can be worked out, but I'm not sure who I need to be talking to.  I'm bound to be a minority investor, but I'm keen to work with people to get this fixed.


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Actually, a fair number of people.  While I cannot afford that by myself, I'd merrily work with other investors to better that offer.
> 
> As has been discussed elsewhere, Dragoneer turned down an offer of $50,000 prior to finalizing the IMVU deal; one more reason to doubt the $20,000 figure.  Either way, I'm still hoping something can be worked out, but I'm not sure who I need to be talking to.  I'm bound to be a minority investor, but I'm keen to work with people to get this fixed.



*Wave*

We'd likely have a sizeable minimum investment if we were to bring the offer up again, to prevent the problem noted elsewhere of 200+ people all trying to run FA as one unit, but we haven't given up hope. That's why I wanted to know where the $20k comes from, because it seems like utter insanity to me that Neer would have turned down a much larger community offer to sell to IMVU for so much less.

Oh, and while I'm here...



NoahGryphon said:


> if they do censor ANYTHING i WILL bomb IMVU's offices.




No you fucking won't. Now stop being the kind of ludicrous Internet Warrior who gives the other side reason to dismiss an entire viewpoint as "woe is me, I was threatened on the Twitters."


----------



## rjbartrop (Mar 25, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> Can I get a citation on that? Seriously. Has he confirmed the sale price anywhere?



What Dragoneer has said is that IMVU bought $20K worth of new servers, and of course, whatever they're paying him to do this full time. What more there is to the deal,  I haven't seen anything.


----------



## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 25, 2015)

Blitza said:


> I wonder who really would pay 20.000 for FA when they have 0 Profit, maybe People who are pretty sick XD



Well there was a group of furries that offered Neer 50K for FA only he would maintain 46% of the vote. and they would be able to over rule him if they felt it was not in the communities best interests. Neer turned them down and sold us to IMVU instead. At least the other offer for 50K Would have kept FA in the community.


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 25, 2015)

rjbartrop said:


> What Dragoneer has said is that IMVU bought $20K worth of new servers, and of course, whatever they're paying him to do this full time. What more there is to the deal,  I haven't seen anything.



Right, I remember now. That makes way more sense to me. Thanks.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> *Wave*
> 
> We'd likely have a sizeable minimum investment if we were to bring the offer up again, to prevent the problem noted elsewhere of 200+ people all trying to run FA as one unit, but we haven't given up hope. That's why I wanted to know where the $20k comes from, because it seems like utter insanity to me that Neer would have turned down a much larger community offer to sell to IMVU for so much less.
> 
> ...



Wonderful timing!

However, I can explain a scenario why Dragoneer would take that offer over your own: by selling for a lower price, but with a contractual agreement to act as Head of FA (or whatever title he got) he gets very steady job.  In a year's time, he'd likely make up the difference between your offer and IMVU's unsubstantiated offer of $20k.  It would effectively be like turning FA's sell into a personal annuity, possibly with the bonus of health insurance, life insurance, and all that good stuff.  Obviously, this is just a hypothetical, but given the benefits that would accumulate, I can imagine a plausible scenario where this is the case.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Silvershock said:


> Right, I remember now. That makes way more sense to me. Thanks.



Hell, that's right!   So many $20ks floating around that they're all starting to look alike!

Still, though, that's rather ironic when IMVU got about that same about from the fundraising drive.  I take that to mean that IMVU gave FA it's money back?  Though I haven't a clue how much of that fundraiser money was left when 'Neer handed it over to IMVU; I just think it silly they got that money as a sort of rebate on their purchase.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

Yup, definitely time to curl up in a dark corner and weep till this blows over and Dragoneer actually gets the cojones to explain this in a journal.


----------



## Blitza (Mar 25, 2015)

Guys sorry to interupt your talk about IMVU and Neer but i have one question, maybe 2 to be honist.

1.) What will you do now since talk brings nothing much so what have you planned for the Future ?

2.) I wonder really why so much Furrys are still sticking to Neer after that totally wacky Thing with IMVU, do you believe this will Change anyhow that Neer gets FA back ?

For me i spend Years and Money like others supporting Artists on FA and it whas really like home, but i dont want Support an Company like IMVU.

Alone that on the site the Copyright when i see i could throw up my Food ..............


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

that last part in the new Fender journal is just what we expected as an answer from an CEO :V


			
				IMVU's CEO said:
			
		

> Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.




nothing like saying that everything is gonna stay the same, FA you can just report the image while IMVU... "still go the legal route of taking down things"

I only shall see more IMVU accounts getting perma banned and more IMVU users getting angry about getting perma banned and eventually Parents wondering why IMVU that suppose to be family friendly is hooking up with a site that is known for its porn...


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Blitza said:


> Guys sorry to interupt your talk about IMVU and Neer but i have one question, maybe 2 to be honist.
> 
> 1.) What will you do now since talk brings nothing much so what have you planned for the Future ?



I havenâ€™t any plans right now beyond reaching out and maintaining vigilance.  Iâ€™m happy to help where I can and chime in if I think I have any useful thoughts, but shy of that, Iâ€™m playing this as a waiting game at the moment.  What more can I do?




Blitza said:


> 2.) I wonder really why so much Furrys are still sticking to Neer after that totally wacky Thing with IMVU, do you believe this will Change anyhow that Neer gets FA back ?
> 
> For me i spend Years and Money like others supporting Artists on FA and it whas really like home, but i dont want Support an Company like IMVU.
> 
> Alone that on the site the Copyright when i see i could throw up my Food ..............



When I say â€œbuy FA back,â€ I do not mean that I intend to buy it back and give it to Dragoneer.  I mean to say that I am hopeful that FA can once more be brought to fandom control.  Preferably with power divided sufficiently to prevent sudden moves like the abrupt sale to IMVU out of the realm of possibility.  Even if Iâ€™m just acting as a cheerleader for such a development rather than being party to it, it is my hope and my goal.

I see no point in running away from FA at this point, but I do believe in hedging your bets and branching out to the other main hubs of furry activity: Weasyl, InkBunny, and SoFurry.  I do not believe IMVU is going to turn around and start monetizing FA overnight, but I am not hopeful that things will be go well whenever the honeymoon ends.  >.o


----------



## RCRuskin (Mar 25, 2015)

Blitza said:


> Guys sorry to interupt your talk about IMVU and Neer but i have one question, maybe 2 to be honist.
> 
> 1.) What will you do now since talk brings nothing much so what have you planned for the Future ?
> 
> ...



Well, for me: 1. Moving to SoFurry.

2. I wonder the same. I'm not sticking with him, certainly since there's been one issue unresolved since he 'took over' the site; still waiting for his response.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> Well, for me: 1. Moving to SoFurry.
> 
> 2. I wonder the same. I'm not sticking with him, certainly since there's been one issue unresolved since he 'took over' the site; still waiting for his response.


understand that SoFurry Enforces a tagging system, also I would advise exploring the site before hand (not today, the site having problems). If anything "avoid the forums, its full of fuckers. Avoid the chatroom, for its also full of fuckers."


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

Hermie said:


> IMVU receives money from stolen property. There is not only evidence to file a civil suit, there are criminal charges here, not to mention the possibility of criminal fraud on Dragoneer's part. If someone has the ability to pursue legal action, please do, and ASAP.



I know, but in the words of our leader, art theft is OK since:   http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> lets not forget what Tchellin has stated, this is just the tip of the iceberg, when the parents of the 12-14 year olds discover that IMVU just bought a Porn site. It is considered a porn site lets not fool ourselves, and believe that just because we have some clean art we are not all porn. The simple truth is Paypal one of the largest money brokers on the net Lists Furaffinity as a porn site and bans all Accounts that are caught buy and selling items from Furaffinity. this means that if Paypal lists us as a porn site we are considered a Porn. It does not matter the G rated art is created and sold there, the sites demographic is indeed XXX. this stands for everything IMVU is not and after Varsha Posted a link to FA in a G rated site basically full of children and some adults it put a ugly stain on this whole deal even more. the parents are going to be pissed and if they find out they are going to ban their kids from using IMVU which will then cause IMVU to have to take some very drastic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And we have no guarantee that they will keep to their words of "leaving FA operate independently". Because, ya know, since when big corporations have told the truth?


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> Well, for me: 1. Moving to SoFurry.
> 
> 2. I wonder the same. I'm not sticking with him, certainly since there's been one issue unresolved since he 'took over' the site; still waiting for his response.



I could be wrong, but in the fifty odd pages of this thread and the thousands of comments over on Fender's posts, I do not think a single person endorsed the idea of wresting control of FA away from IMVU just to give it back to Dragoneer.

Every discussion has been about bringing control back within fandom hands; _not _Dragoneer's.  

FA should be owned and operated by fandom folk; that is my belief and there are plenty others of similar opinion.  
Let this sell be the last time the fate of the jewel of the fandom is dictated by a single entity; gone is the era of a King, now is the time for a Republic.

..or tomorrow, or whenever the opportunity arises.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

Kami-chan said:


> my art is in this one http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
> 
> so what should i do with the theft?



Cry, because if you got your art stolen it means they love you.

That is what Dragoneer says:  http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

AshleyAshes said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606222/
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else wondering why Strypes gets to 'Poke Dragoneer about it' when everyone else *must* to go through a DMCA process?  This seems like special treatment for a certain class of furry artist.



ALSO, when you want to poke Dragoneer the average wait time is 6-8 months to have a response. (If you are not one of his butt-buddies of course)


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> I could be wrong, but in the fifty odd pages of this thread and the thousands of comments over on Fender's posts, I do not think a single person endorsed the idea of wresting control of FA away from IMVU just to give it back to Dragoneer.
> 
> Every discussion has been about bringing control back within fandom hands; _not _Dragoneer's.
> 
> ...



Dragoneer literally sold his chance to keep it, I want the site to go back to the fandom it it goes back at all.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 25, 2015)

In the QA with the CEO, no mention of how to DMCA stolen adult content that's behind the paywall without having an adult pass...I really think they want you all to still pay for an adult pass. Dick move, but it's money, and that is the goal of companies. I mean, EA and Activision do shit like this, so why not another electronic entertainment company?


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> In the QA with the CEO, no mention of how to DMCA stolen adult content that's behind the paywall...I really think they want you all to still pay for an adult pass. Dick move, but it's money, and that is the goal of companies.



Well, I see two ways: FA Members/Recognized Artists/Authorized agents/Whatever get free access, but that's giving away the keys to the castle in their view.  It can only cost them money; it gains them nothing.
Or they can continue the system they have, which actually nets them a profit.

Come now, if you were a corporation, which way are you going to lean in the equation?  You're going to take something over nothing.  This isn't charity, this isn't between friends, it isn't even between fandom members; it is business, and that's the way its conducted these days.


So far as the Q&A is concerned, I would have liked it more if we had a live Q&A, but I know that's really not going to change much and, besides that, it'll never happen.  The CEO offering a quickie answer to question at a rate of less than one per day, it'll never get anywhere.  It's easier to glean information and gauge honesty and intent when the event isn't scripted. 

C'est la vie.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> In the QA with the CEO, no mention of how to DMCA stolen adult content that's behind the paywall without having an adult pass...I really think they want you all to still pay for an adult pass. Dick move, but it's money, and that is the goal of companies.



There's also this.



> IMVU is not today, and will not be tomorrow, an exclusively furry community. Furries are one of the many, many, many diverse audiences that meet on IMVU, to socialize and find others that understand them and share their same interests.



But my biggest fear is



> *"Does IMVU plan on changing FA?"*
> 
> IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team.



Yeah sure, Dragoneer gets to be the one to make decisions but what is to say his CEO won't write him up and go, "we need to monitize this, you can decide if we should or not but if you don't you're done.". 

I know we said no laywer speak but Dragoneer lives in Virginia, and IMVU is in California. Both of these places are "at-will employment" states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
Meaning he can be fired for any reason at any time, even if in contract. There is nothing stopping them from giving him the boot if they don't like what he's doing. 

The CEO says right there the furry community isn't their main focus, it's just another demographic. So once it becomes clear they're not going to make a return investment on this, then it's over.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Well, I see two ways: FA Members/Recognized Artists/Authorized agents/Whatever get free access, but that's giving away the keys to the castle in their view.  It can only cost them money; it gains them nothing.
> Or they can continue the system they have, which actually nets them a profit.
> 
> Come now, if you were a corporation, which way are you going to lean in the equation?  You're going to take something over nothing.  This isn't charity, this isn't between friends, it isn't even between fandom members; it is business, and that's the way its conducted these days.
> ...


Yep, just like on disc DLC and "freemium" candy-crush BS, electronic media companies are kinda becoming shit these days.


----------



## RCRuskin (Mar 25, 2015)

I've been on SoFurry for quite sometime, just as a lurker before. But thank you for the advice.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> Yep, just like on disc DLC and "freemium" candy-crush BS, electronic media companies are kinda becoming shit these days.



Yup, and all the other soul-sucking developments.  

But hey, it's alright, for just $19.99 you can have the FA All Access Season Pass!  (Offer does not include AP-content, purchasable items, unlockable avatars, icons, or outfits!)

Happy thoughts, though, yeah?  With any luck, things won't go that far sideways (I hope).


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Yup, and all the other soul-sucking developments.
> 
> But hey, it's alright, for just $19.99 you can have the FA All Access Season Pass!  (Offer does not include AP-content, purchasable items, unlockable avatars, icons, or outfits!)
> 
> Happy thoughts, though, yeah?


But wait! If you pay $20 more, you can get the collector's edition with the 2015 Christmas Ornament and Fender T-shirt DLC!


----------



## Smelge (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Yup, and all the other soul-sucking developments.
> 
> But hey, it's alright, for just $19.99 you can have the FA All Access Season Pass!  (Offer does not include AP-content, purchasable items, unlockable avatars, icons, or outfits!)
> 
> Happy thoughts, though, yeah?  With any luck, things won't go that far sideways (I hope).



Actually, that is something FA could have done with an an earlier stage. There are a lot of extra features that could have been added to the site and included in a premium membership. Stuff that enhances the experience but doesn't impede non-premium accounts. Things that could have been added by any halfway competent coding team.

But seemingly it's easier to run the site into a hole in the ground then sell it than actually trusting people who know what they're doing.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Actually, that is something FA could have done with an an earlier stage. There are a lot of extra features that could have been added to the site and included in a premium membership. Stuff that enhances the experience but doesn't impede non-premium accounts. Things that could have been added by any halfway competent coding team.
> 
> But seemingly it's easier to run the site into a hole in the ground then sell it than actually trusting people who know what they're doing.


 He didn't have to do anything at all, and now he's paid to not do anything at all


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 25, 2015)

Emil said:


> IMVU is a corporation with millions of dollars of revenues. Why should the furry community provide a service for free to mitigate their fuckups for them? Stop supporting your own exploitation.



If you really want to hit them where it hurts, hit them where the money is. Report their IMVU points cards to the major retailers that carry said cards.

After all, they generally have a policy against selling products that are linked to porn.


----------



## Calemeyr (Mar 25, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> If you really want to hit them where it hurts, hit them where the money is. Report their IMVU points cards to the major retailers that carry said cards.
> 
> After all, they generally have a policy against selling products that are linked to porn.


But then they say "oh no, FA is not a porn site (despite it being founded as an all-open alternative to Sheezyart when that site banned porn)" or "but adult content requires age verification."


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 25, 2015)

We should sue Dragoneer on Judge Judy. :^)


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> If you really want to hit them where it hurts, hit them where the money is. Report their IMVU points cards to the major retailers that carry said cards.
> 
> After all, they generally have a policy against selling products that are linked to porn.



Remember they also want to have gogole ads put up on here, Google clearly states



> [h=3]Prohibited adult content (never allowed)[/h]Here are some examples of content that we don't allow:
> 
> Sexually explicit content
> 
> ...


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Actually, that is something FA could have done with an an earlier stage. There are a lot of extra features that could have been added to the site and included in a premium membership. Stuff that enhances the experience but doesn't impede non-premium accounts. Things that could have been added by any halfway competent coding team.
> 
> But seemingly it's easier to run the site into a hole in the ground then sell it than actually trusting people who know what they're doing.



Maybe, but I think that would have stifled FAâ€™s growth.  

Personally, I believe that FA could run quite well on a Wikipedia/Wikimedia-style fundraiser.  A nice banner on the top of the page; big enough to notice, but nothing flashy or too distracting, that would read, â€œIf everyone who saw this ad donated $1, we could end our annual fundraiser in just a few days.  Can you spare a dollar, friend?â€  I genuinely believe this, plus the bit of ad revenue that we get from artists and the like, would be enough to sustain FA on.  I believe this even more now that the prospect of FA being hawked is fresh in peopleâ€™s minds; but Iâ€™d rather not prey on peopleâ€™s fears.  I want this to be a community.  Iâ€™m not looking for anyone to give more than they can; and Iâ€™m not looking to pick any pockets or guilt trip people into donations.  

Youâ€™d be amazed what a kind word can get you in this life; and how effective gentle pitches can be when it comes to fundraising.  Hell, look at the people who did the â€œIf you ask us, we will never bother you again about a donation; however, if you can give, it would do genuine good.â€-sort of campaign.  It turns out it nets a very significant boost in donations despite the vast majority of donors _not_ checking the â€œNever Againâ€ box.  

Last but not least, I think if FA were run more transparently and the needs more clearly communicated, the community would be more responsive to funding drives.  

Anyway, just my uninformed opinion, Iâ€™ve just a bit of faith that people will do what they can to keep the fandom strong.  And this isnâ€™t unique to FA, it ought to apply to Weasyl, InkBunny, and SoFurry, too.  All you have to do is actually _communicate_.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Maybe, but I think that would have stifled FAâ€™s growth.
> 
> Personally, I believe that FA could run quite well on a Wikipedia/Wikimedia-style fundraiser.  A nice banner on the top of the page; big enough to notice, but nothing flashy or too distracting, that would read, â€œIf everyone who saw this ad donated $1, we could end our annual fundraiser in just a few days.  Can you spare a dollar, friend?â€  I genuinely believe this, plus the bit of ad revenue that we get from artists and the like, would be enough to sustain FA on.  I believe this even more now that the prospect of FA being hawked is fresh in peopleâ€™s minds; but Iâ€™d rather not prey on peopleâ€™s fears.  I want this to be a community.  Iâ€™m not looking for anyone to give more than they can; and Iâ€™m not looking to pick any pockets or guilt trip people into donations.
> 
> ...



Well here is my question with money, if Dragoneer stated that FA was in no debt and was working fine, why did he even need to sell out? Was the 20K not enough to cover whatever it was he kept saying he would do? FA should have been able to upgrade or whatever and still been debt free based on what he said. Right?


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 25, 2015)

Calemeyr said:


> But then they say "oh no, FA is not a porn site (despite it being founded as an all-open alternative to Sheezyart when that site banned porn)" or "but adult content requires age verification."



Big(Blue chip) business may be even worse when it comes to their profit obsession. But they know the value of their family friendly reputation. You point out to then that IMVU bought out a 'furry' art site, with adult art... And only an honor system? Yeah, they have to do an independent investigation. 
They'll pull the points cards, and probably force an ultimatum on IMVU before selling them again. (Well, at least Walmart. They have more then enough clout to bully anyone.)


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> If you really want to hit them where it hurts, hit them where the money is. Report their IMVU points cards to the major retailers that carry said cards.
> 
> After all, they generally have a policy against selling products that are linked to porn.




I actually think I made a case for that before, but it may have got cut.  x.x;  Iâ€™ve done a lot of writing in the last few days now that I actually got forum access.  (Registration verification problem jammed me up; I was going mad trying to jump in here where the real discussion was.) 

While itâ€™s out in the open, though, Iâ€™m curious to hear if anyone has a downside to this plan?  I do think it would put pressure on IMVU to deal; however, Iâ€™m also not really keen on trying to encourage people to make a counter-offer _and_ trying to put media pressure on them.  Thatâ€™s a personal, ethical concern on my part, though.  Iâ€™m also wary of dragging the fandom into that kind of publicity, because you _know_ the media would have a field day with all the things they could show.

It could also backfire and force IMVUâ€™s hand and thrust drastic changes to FA with very little warning.  People are prone to overreacting when the media spotlight is trained on them. 



Calemeyr said:


> But then they say "oh no, FA is not a porn site (despite it being founded as an all-open alternative to Sheezyart when that site banned porn)" or "but adult content requires age verification."




Yeah, thatâ€™ll be an interesting line for them to walk.  All the more so if the stolen art and the business model seemingly focused on skimming off ill-gotten gains could make it a _very_ interesting story.  ..but I also expect media would focus on the spectacle of furries more than the actual shady parts. 



Roshiyu said:


> Big(Blue chip) business may be even worse when it comes to their profit obsession. But they know the value of their family friendly reputation. You point out to then that IMVU bought out a 'furry' art site, with adult art... And only an honor system? Yeah, they have to do an independent investigation.
> They'll pull the points cards, and probably force an ultimatum on IMVU before selling them again. (Well, at least Walmart. They have more then enough clout to bully anyone.)


 
Exactly.  Iâ€™d just like to think it through to see how this could do more harm than good; and, like I said above, I have some ethical qualms on a personal level.  Feels a bit like a bank that purposefully tanks the value of a neighborhood, buys up the land, and then sells at a high profit margin to condo developers. 



alphaomegaone said:


> Remember they also want to have gogole ads put up on here, Google clearly states


 
I think this more refers to what product is being pitched, not the sort of site on which the ad will appear.  Still, Iâ€™m sure there are more than a few major advertisers who would be squeamish over the prospect of having their ad hovering over a rabbit and a wolf carrying out some kinky scene reversing the predator/prey relationship.    All with a nice ad pitching Tide, â€œTide, it gets out the worst of lifeâ€™s stains!â€  Somehow I feel like that isnâ€™t quite the place they wanted Tide to be pitched..



alphaomegaone said:


> Well here is my question with money, if Dragoneer stated that FA was in no debt and was working fine, why did he even need to sell out? Was the 20K not enough to cover whatever it was he kept saying he would do? FA should have been able to upgrade or whatever and still been debt free based on what he said. Right?




On that, I cannot really hazard a guess.  Maybe he thought heâ€™d leverage FA to net a steady job with reliable income?  Or maybe he _genuinely_ believes that IMVU will lead FA into a bright future.  It isnâ€™t beyond the realm of possibilities, you know?  I just donâ€™t agree with that.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> Remember they also want to have gogole ads put up on here, Google clearly states


I actually wondered how that will be resolved...
Google Adsense while can work, if someone reports that "hey that site have porn on it" google will yank the adsense...
so these ads that we'll eventually have to probably be the same way IMVU gets their ads.

Also another set of questions: 
What about the user ads? Will we still get them thru FA though profit may instead go to IMVU?
Ad Priority? Will the ads IMVU add have higher priority than the user ads?


----------



## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

I think if they're really going to try and maximize their ad revenue, then they're probably going to end up recoding the site. FA is currently a dinosaur and I don't know how much of what they would plan to do they can accomplish with the code that's here. Especially *especially* if they're going to do premium content or PA content. Probably easier to program a new site that supports pay features by default.

So even if a new site comes out, it isn't necessarily good news.

[/wildspeculation]


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

From the IMVU CEO: 

"Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMC"

Right, I call bullshit, in other words, "We don't give a flying shit on whether or not your copyrighted art is stolen."  Gotcha.  Nice move there, CEO, ol' buddy ol' pal. 
_


_


----------



## Blitza (Mar 25, 2015)

Neer have really no Problems it seems, he made an Journal just for his Birthday..... with one word DING

Level 35 Congrats your 65 Levels away from perfection, please Train more xd


----------



## Accountability (Mar 25, 2015)

Anyone who's clamoring to restore ownership of FA to the community: you're delusional. It's not going to happen. There will be no lawsuit. There will be no movie-style ending where the community wins out over the Big Corportation.

Go support a different site. Go find one of the numerous people who want to build a new site and support them. Fighting this is wasted effort. IMVU isn't going away.


----------



## NoahGryphon (Mar 25, 2015)

Accountability said:


> Anyone who's clamoring to restore ownership of FA to the community: you're delusional. It's not going to happen. There will be no lawsuit. There will be no movie-style ending where the community wins out over the Big Corportation.
> 
> Go support a different site. Go find one of the numerous people who want to build a new site and support them. Fighting this is wasted effort. IMVU isn't going away.




i wouldent mind if the stupid paranoid ones left -_- people are over-reacting about this whole thing. dragoneer is still in control which means we will be oki.


----------



## Silvershock (Mar 25, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> i wouldent mind if the stupid paranoid ones left -_- people are over-reacting about this whole thing. dragoneer is still in control which means we will be oki.



Weren't you threatening to firebomb IMVU's offices a few pages back?


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> i wouldent mind if the stupid paranoid ones left -_- people are over-reacting about this whole thing. dragoneer is still in control which means we will be oki.


just the whole thing is that he has a boss
whom is all about profits whom also gotta calm down HIS community due to folks over there are realizing "oh shit, we fucked up...those furries over there are getting us banned for posting their art and selling it"
I understand its the userbase but IMVU could see it as this...
"Those users who got perma banned can make a new account...they just gotta pay for it all...again, and maybe they'll fuck up...again and get perma banned...again." :V


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

Really classy there https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/580127860213436418  He tells people that they shouldn't have their comments removed yet, http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606934 I see several comments that have been censored. I didn't know George Orwell and his 1984 Orwellian society were a part of FA. Censorship = the path of pussies who don't want to deal with real life concerns.

Quote from the journal posted


Spoiler




*SITE NEWS/POSTING RULES*
1) Keep posts civil, constructive and polite
2) Keep discussion on topic to the post at hand.
3) Treat your fellow posters with respect.
You asked and IMVUâ€™s CEO has answered. We've collected and took your questions to Brett Durrett - IMVUâ€™s CEO. He has not only reviewed these representative questions but also the discussions that have been taking place on FA regarding the acquisition. We've taken some questions from responses to our recent journals.

Here are his responses... in his own words.

*Why the Acquisition?*

IMVU is a 10 year old community built entirely by customers for customers; it is sustained by creative individuals finding like-minded people online, who accept and encourage their creative, expressive sides, anonymously. At a high level, while the art form is entirely different, the guiding principles - inclusiveness, celebrating creativity, embracing diversity - are the overarching umbrella that unites the two distinct communities.

IMVU is not today, and will not be tomorrow, an exclusively furry community. Furries are one of the many, many, many diverse audiences that meet on IMVU, to socialize and find others that understand them and share their same interests. 

During discussions with Dragoneer we found FA had huge potential, a passionate community, and a dedicated leader, but was struggling with financial and resource challenges. Dragoneer has the vision but was not able to devote his full attention to the site. We realized that working together we could help FA get the support it needs to make improvements. When talking to Dragoneer about the possibility of an acquisition, every one of his requirements were based on wanting to make sure the end result was right for the FA communityâ€¦ this is when I was convinced that FA will have an amazing future. 

IMVU is making a commitment of money and resources to FA that far exceeds what FA was able to achieve on its own. I believe FA will grow to being a self-supporting community if it has the focus, people and resources to make customer experience improvements. With IMVUâ€™s support and keeping a hands-off approach to how FA is operated, Iâ€™m looking forward to a rewarding outcome for everybody, most of all FAâ€™s community.

*One of the most asked questions: "Why IMVU?" which ties well into a question asked by user Sketh, "How is IMVU even remotely relevant to FA? An online 3d avatar chat system acquiring a furry art gallery...?"*

FA is a community of creative people sharing their artwork. IMVU is also a community of creative people sharing their artwork - 3D models and fashion creations. While FA is dedicated to the furry audience, IMVU welcomes and celebrates many, many diverse audiences, furries being a significant one of them. 

*"And what does it meant for us furries?"* asked by DirtyPaws

Other than FA having a lot more resources 100% dedicated to improving the site, it shouldnâ€™t mean anything different than before the acquisition. You will see advertising, but FA is being run by Dragoneer, not by IMVU. Oh, and FA wonâ€™t need community donations to survive, so no more pledge drives. 

*"What does IMVU get out of this?"* asked by Michichael

We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general.

*"What will IMVU do with FA?"* asked by Roycefox

Thatâ€™s a better question for Dragoneer. We really believe that FA knows what is best for the FA community, so we have committed support both financially and through other resources. We want to let it run independently and see it thrive.

A LOT of users seemed concerned that the ads coming will be trying to auto-install spyware/malware

The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included.

Among the other general questions:

*"Does IMVU plan on changing FA?"*

IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team.

*"What is IMVU doing to help furry artists who have had their work stolen?" and "What's the best process to protect my art?"*

Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.
*SITE NEWS/POSTING RULES*
1) Keep posts civil, constructive and polite
2) Keep discussion on topic to the post at hand.
3) Treat your fellow posters with respect.

 




Cool, so like, nothing will change, the same bullshit as usual and even more people are pissed off. Mission accomplished.


----------



## BRN (Mar 25, 2015)

This entire page so far


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> This entire page so far



Lol, such a pathetic explanation. Nothing that we haven't heard really has been said TBH, just reaffirmation after reaffirmation, CEO: "If your art is stolen, too bad lol".


----------



## BRN (Mar 25, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Lol, such a pathetic explanation.


wait what was I explaining


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> wait what was I explaining



I dunno XD I was just pointing out that the journal that was made to "explain" the situation better is the dumbest thing I've heard in my life.


----------



## Emil (Mar 25, 2015)

Exclusive photograph of IMVU CEO:


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Mar 25, 2015)

Accountability said:


> Anyone who's clamoring to restore ownership of FA to the community: you're delusional. It's not going to happen. There will be no lawsuit. There will be no movie-style ending where the community wins out over the Big Corportation.
> 
> Go support a different site. Go find one of the numerous people who want to build a new site and support them. Fighting this is wasted effort. IMVU isn't going away.



Yes but if I left, I couldn't bask in this beautiful trainwreck.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Neer: im messaging people who have had their art stolen
me: the vast majority of people whose art is stolen are very popular, like stripe, falvie, blotch, etc
faf: this is bullshit, why is neer only helping popufurs


----------



## Littlerock (Mar 25, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> i wouldent mind if the stupid paranoid ones left -_- people are over-reacting about this whole thing. dragoneer is still in control which means we will be oki.





Verin Asper said:


> just the whole thing is that *he has a boss*
> whom is all about profits whom also gotta calm down HIS community...



Phew, that's good news to hear! For a second there, I thought our beloved Neer's life was in danger. 



NoahGryphon said:


> ... i hate is when anyone has power where they shouldent. so if dragoneer really was the leader id assassinate him :3



What a relief.

On a more serious note, I absolutely cannot comprehend how people still trust Neer. This whole ordeal is hillarious. I am shaking with combined fury and humor. There are no words for how asinine his behavior has been, and it's not like this has been the first time he's pulled a stunt like this, good god.

Appalling.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Accountability said:


> Anyone who's clamoring to restore ownership of FA to the community: you're delusional. It's not going to happen. There will be no lawsuit. There will be no movie-style ending where the community wins out over the Big Corportation.
> 
> Go support a different site. Go find one of the numerous people who want to build a new site and support them. Fighting this is wasted effort. IMVU isn't going away.



I canâ€™t give things a whirl here _and_ participate elsewhere?  This isnâ€™t some gang war where entrance into one somehow bans my fellowship or participation in another. 

Look, itâ€™s a long shot; Iâ€™m not running around saying all the world will be well even if things do pan out a way Iâ€™d like. Maybe something happens tomorrow, maybe its years from now, maybe never; but Iâ€™ll have to beg your pardon if I donâ€™t just quit at the first sign of adversity, however large it may have been.  And if you go looking back, Iâ€™ve been the one tamping down expectations about lawsuits; Iâ€™ve more faith that Iâ€™ll hit a Mega Millions jackpot because than Arcturus pulling out a victory, and any suit involving copyright issues isnâ€™t going to have a snowballâ€™s chance of winning anything, much less fixing anything  relating to FAâ€™s ownership.

My failure should be entertaining to those just waiting for things to go up in flames; and Iâ€™m loathe to leave you all unentertained.  

Wouldnâ€™t be the first time I failed in an endeavor, probably wouldnâ€™t be the last, either; Iâ€™m alright with that.  Iâ€™m just tired of sitting on the sidelines, biting my tongue, watching things go down and doing shit all about it.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Just a reminder: you can be critical of neer and his actions without wanting the dude to be thrown into a fiery pit of hell
 There is no life without criticism and neer is adult and has been around long enough to handle criticism that he receives.
if you would blindly like to defend or praise neer as an attempt to disrupt what were doing here, please do it elsewhere. Opinions will not be changed and wed rather get shit done instead of argue about how gorgeous and perfect dragoneers ripped biceps and long flowing hair is. We get that is beautiful but we can discuss this later once things sre done


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Just a reminder: you can be critical of neer and his actions without wanting the dude to be thrown into a fiery pit of hell
> There is no life without criticism and neer is adult and has been around long enough to handle criticism that he receives.
> if you would blindly like to defend or praise neer as an attempt to disrupt what were doing here, please do it elsewhere. Opinions will not be changed and wed rather get shit done instead of argue about how gorgeous and perfect dragoneers ripped biceps and long flowing hair is. We get that is beautiful but we can discuss this later once things sre done



Man, I _just_ wrote something about that stuff, though; especially the part where I went on raving about that hair.  FML.  

If I'm forgoing that, I've got to ask: what progress are you looking to talk about?


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Im not sure what youre talking about
My post wasn't aimed at you btw


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Im not sure what youre talking about
> My post wasn't aimed at you btw



Well, yeah, I kind of figured.  It was more a jab at myself for rambling on too long about some relatively useless topics.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

Things have calmed down not due to Neer but mostly due to the community once again taking it upon themselves to get things done. 

When people steal art they tend to get the more popular ones done by popular artist. So yes the popular artist are getting help...its mostly their art on there.
While it may be unfair for those that are less popular but still have their stuff there we can ar least assist those that do want to remove the art as some have shown no care that their art is there.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Neer: im messaging people who have had their art stolen
> me: *the vast majority of people whose art is stolen are very popular*, like stripe, falvie, blotch, etc
> faf: this is bullshit, why is neer only helping popufurs




That's just common sense, isn't it?


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## Smelge (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> me: the vast majority of people whose art is stolen are very popular, like stripe, falvie, blotch, etc



Or the stuff that can't be identified as popular artists is being discredited because nobody knows who owns it.


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## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Neer: im messaging people who have had their art stolen
> me: the vast majority of people whose art is stolen are very popular, like stripe, falvie, blotch, etc
> faf: this is bullshit, why is neer only helping popufurs





PheagleAdler said:


> That's just common sense, isn't it?



It is and I understand it; Iâ€™m not even really upset about it, but I can see why other artists would be.  Itâ€™s like saying that there are tiers of artists, and only the elite get the number to Dragoneerâ€™s takedown hot line; and that is going to make a lot of people very sore seeing as it leaves them dealing with legal forms and long waits.

I mean, Iâ€™d be irate if the unspoken reason I didnâ€™t get help was, â€œOh, damn!  FYIAD you nearly made it onto the Give a Damn list!  If only you drew bushier tails we could have helped you!  Tough break, bud; if you go looking, youâ€™ll find a link to the DMCA form â€“ and donâ€™t forget, you have to have access to the AP section if you want to take down those works!  Good luck, pal!â€

The other people who are upset are likely taking issue because its â€˜Neer.  I mean, is he being helpful just to curry favor?  Is he trying to get more free art and kissing ass to that end?  Itâ€™s a problem relating more to trust and optics than the action itself. 

The real question I have, though, is how long is Dragoneer going to keep up bothering?  It seems to me this is going to be an endless pursuit with new infringers coming back in just as the next batch get banned. 


Smelge said:


> Or the stuff that can't be identified as popular artists is being discredited because nobody knows who owns it.


 
Thatâ€™s a case for e621, where the tagging system is used all the time.  Itâ€™s my go-to place if I know what Iâ€™m looking for but canâ€™t recall who did it or donâ€™t want to go digging through years of art just to find it.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Or the stuff that can't be identified as popular artists is being discredited because nobody knows who owns it.



Which is why we need more people looking.
I'm searching for random tags that match the pictures on e621 and I'm finding some that way.
You can either help or you can complain. I'd rather have you help though.



FYIAD said:


> The real question I have, though, is how long is Dragoneer going to keep up bothering?  It seems to me this is going to be an endless pursuit with new infringers coming back in just as the next batch get banned.



This is a question I have as well. The journal with IMVU CEO said "file a DMCA", and I take this to mean "eventually you'll have to" because in the meantime, you can contact Dragoneer if you know your art is stolen.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Which is why we need more people looking.
> I'm searching for random tags that match the pictures on e621 and I'm finding some that way.
> You can either help or you can complain. I'd rather have you help though.
> 
> ...



I've got to call it a night, but I can see about kicking in some help tomorrow.  Is there a coordinated effort going on somewhere or this being done in an unorganized, ad hoc kind of way?  I haven't kept up with developments on that front, I'm afraid. >.o


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> It is and I understand it; Iâ€™m not even really upset about it, but I can see why other artists would be.  Itâ€™s like saying that there are tiers of artists, and only the elite get the number to Dragoneerâ€™s takedown hot line; and that is going to make a lot of people very sore seeing as it leaves them dealing with legal forms and long waits.



A popular person can have some sort of control over the users, more so than 'Neer. If you piss off a popular person, you're not going to be popular yourself. Hell, a FA riot might start.

-Note-
I'm not supporting his actions, nor am I against it. I wish to find a balance here, where both sides can be happy.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

I've only been hanging out on here and Weasyl. I've just been posting shit here as I assume that's where Neer's getting his art sources.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Which is why we need more people looking.
> I'm searching for random tags that match the pictures on e621 and I'm finding some that way.
> You can either help or you can complain. I'd rather have you help though.
> 
> ...


Leaves me to wish to help but im permabanned from imvu years ago (its why im on SL now) if you need much more clear links to images or better images to use, ill see if any of me mates still have their accounts on that site. Im sure at least 4 of us would like to cause problems for IMVU again for the greater good.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 25, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> A popular person can have some sort of control over the users, more so than 'Neer. If you piss off a popular person, you're not going to be popular yourself. Hell, a FA riot might start.
> 
> -Note-
> I'm not supporting his actions, nor am I against it. I wish to find a balance here, where both sides can be happy.



Yes, well, I'm not in it to win a popularity contest; and I've still got the benefit of pseudonymity even if that were a concern.    My affinity is for obscurity, not publicity or adoration.

I just thought it worth commenting on; I appreciate what Dragoneer is doing, even if it can be seen as a judgmental sleight or an attempt to gain the support and affection of top tier artists.  (Mind you, thing being where the biggest artists make home* plays a role in keeping FA dominant, so I suppose even that could look self-serving.  This is the problem when everyone is upset with you, just about any action you take is going to have at least a quarter of the crowd up in arms.  At this point, any improvement is welcome.)

*Home as in their primary presence on one of the three major hubs: FA, Weasyl, and InkBunny.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 25, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> Im sure at least 4 of us would like to cause problems for IMVU again for the greater good.



Sorry to be so sharp about this, but who is it helping?

-Edit-



FYIAD said:


> Yes, well, I'm not in it to win a popularity contest; and I've still got the benefit of pseudonymity even if that were a concern.  My affinity is for obscurity, not publicity or adoration.




I don't think anybody is, man. We have to figure out whether or not the 1% us greater than the 99%. This needs to be addressed as quickly as possible.


----------



## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Sorry to be so sharp about this, but who is it helping?



Artists

& yes, that would be awesome Verin


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Artists



-who want their money


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Sorry to be so sharp about this, but who is it helping?


There will be artist who may not be getting the neer grade help, so its better to assist those by not only confirming that their image is there but also provide the template to take down the images.
Just my group tend to prefer helping thru chaos. I would rather see from folks getting banned for selling stuff that isnt theirs to make IMVU realize their system is full of bunk and need to be fixed finally.





Or they don't and reap the reward of folks needing to make a new account and then pay again for AP and VIP...


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Well it seems they're already getting banned for it, so all we need to do is provide the ammo for DMCAs and let artists take it from there.


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## FireFeathers (Mar 25, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> -who want their money



Should they not want to be stolen from? What are you trying to say here? Because it sounds like you're trying to argue against people wanting action because they don't want to be taken advantage of. I understand you're 16, but you can't be that dense. 

As I understand it, IMVU's munny or whatever-the-fuck-currency-it-is is based on actual monetary transactions. So they may be paying in Dollarz, but it's still actual money. And if it was some BS reposting crap, that's one thing. But charging for someone else's work, they're well within their rights to be angry about it. The people reposting/ selling are benefiting from it in a way the gub'ment understands- actual transactions.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

FireFeathers said:


> Should they not want to be stolen from? What are you trying to say here? Because it sounds like you're trying to argue against people wanting action because they don't want to be taken advantage of. I understand you're 16, but you can't be that dense.
> 
> As I understand it, IMVU's munny or whatever-the-fuck-currency-it-is is based on actual monetary transactions. So they may be paying in Dollarz, but it's still actual money. And if it was some BS reposting crap, that's one thing. But charging for someone else's work, they're well within their rights to be angry about it. The people reposting/ selling are benefiting from it in a way the gub'ment understands- actual transactions.


not to mention many IMVU users pointed out you can convert it back...


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 25, 2015)

FireFeathers said:


> Should they not want to be stolen from? What are you trying to say here? Because it sounds like you're trying to argue against people wanting action because they don't want to be taken advantage of. I understand you're 16, but you can't be that dense.



It's like you're trying to tell me things I already know. I already understand the issue. Hell, if I posted video on Youtube, I'd be furious if someone else tried to take credit for the things *I* did. You can interpret that quote any way you like, but it doesn't change the fact that people want what they believe is theirs(and is rightfully so).

But let's try to understand that the situation just seemed to have boiled down to not only the morality of stealing, but also the money that artists are losing.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> It's like you're trying to tell me things I already know. I already understand the issue. Hell, if I posted video on Youtube, I'd be furious if someone else tried to take credit for the things *I* did. You can interpret that quote any way you like, but it doesn't change the fact that people want what they believe is theirs(and is rightfully so).
> 
> But let's try to understand that the situation just seemed to have boiled down to not only the morality of stealing, but also the money that artists are losing.


Its more on the money that is being gained off of them...no loss here unless its the people getting their accounts banned on IMVU..thats hundreds of bucks


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> But let's try to understand that the situation just seemed to have boiled down to not only the morality of stealing, but also the money that artists are losing.



That's what it's been about from the start. Artists are being stolen from and users are making money off of it.
If FA users leave in a mass-exodus because of the stolen art, artists will lose out on commissioners and a source of income.


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## NoahGryphon (Mar 25, 2015)

A theory i thought up is that IMVU is working on a new project/game only about furs. like it will be built from the ground up to so that users can make thier fursona down to the last detail, with muzzles that actually look good and stuff.


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## Featherwing15 (Mar 25, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> A theory i thought up is that IMVU is working on a new project/game only about furs. like it will be built from the ground up to so that users can make thier fursona down to the last detail, with muzzles that actually look good and stuff.



I wouldn't bank on that theory though... And even if they were, with what's going on now, I doubt many of us would give IMVU the benefit of a doubt for it.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

Featherwing15 said:


> I wouldn't bank on that theory though... And even if they were, with what's going on now, I doubt many of us would give IMVU the benefit of a doubt for it.


Which many of us have good secondlife ones :V


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 25, 2015)

Wish I used SL more, of course I still prefer it over IMVU


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## Silvershock (Mar 25, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> I've got to call it a night, but I can see about kicking in some help tomorrow.  Is there a coordinated effort going on somewhere or this being done in an unorganized, ad hoc kind of way?  I haven't kept up with developments on that front, I'm afraid. >.o



I'm wondering if it would be feasible to do it programmatically. Basic image comparison to the point of reasonable recognition is fairly easy these days, but you'd have to have a base of images to be searching against, so it'd have to be a per-artist tool that they ran themselves.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

The issue that I've found with the IMVU catalog is that sometimes you can't view the full image, so you have to try and guess based on a 100x100 icon. Maybe the image would show up underneath the description if I enabled IMVU on NoScript but I just don't feel it's worth the risk of doing so.
Images like this: 
http://i.imgur.com/UxA4bYt.png
Were found by going onto e621 and searching "lesbian giraffe" and going through the numerous pages until I found the correct one. On pages where there were no direct links to the original image, I had to go and find the artist on FA and go through their gallery.

http://i.imgur.com/hGDlMSC.png
"ringtail cat + female + nude"

http://i.imgur.com/eAueduA.png
"bluejay + female"

I can't imagine there's an easier way to do this, which is why we need more people actively working on it. It's a lot of work, yes, but I don't think there's any other way to do it -- image comparison programs probably wouldn't be able to pick up an image that small.


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## Fawk (Mar 25, 2015)

I noticed some misinformation a while back about "fursuits" on IMVU.

They are not exactly like fursuits in real life. What you were referring to are called "furkinis" 

Which is a clothing item that can be worn with a  particular skin to give the appearance of being naked without having the Access Pass (the thing you buy to get adult content)

Because it gives the naked appearance, it was AP content for a while. The furry community of IMVU fought this because we do not feel a furry without clothes is naked because they have fur. In the end, the furries won. 

So it wasn't like IMVU was like "are furries adult content?" as much as they were like "does this count as nudity?"

Here is a pic showing an avatar wearing a bikini vs wearing a furkini. Not the best pictures since I am very tired and threw this together really fast.
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2ec21d1.jpg


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

That just looks like a furry with no nipples to me, lol. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm a furry, though.

(I like your fursona btw, it's very cute)


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## Fawk (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> The issue that I've found with the IMVU catalog is that sometimes you can't view the full image, so you have to try and guess based on a 100x100 icon. Maybe the image would show up underneath the description if I enabled IMVU on NoScript but I just don't feel it's worth the risk of doing so.
> Images like this:
> http://i.imgur.com/UxA4bYt.png
> Were found by going onto e621 and searching "lesbian giraffe" and going through the numerous pages until I found the correct one. On pages where there were no direct links to the original image, I had to go and find the artist on FA and go through their gallery.
> ...



Yes, the 100x80 icons are not very easy to go by.
Which is why I started this:
http://imgur.com/a/uzY2r

These are screencaps of the products in the client with the PID number written on the image so that the appropriate people have what they need to DMCA.

It takes longer to do than just screenshotting the whole page, but it gives a better idea of what it is, plus not all products have icons.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Fawk said:


> Yes, the 100x80 icons are not very easy to go by.
> Which is why I started this:
> http://imgur.com/a/uzY2r
> 
> ...



That's _AWESOME_!!! Thank you!
(I've been looking for that third image for a while but just couldn't find it)


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

Fawk said:


> I noticed some misinformation a while back about "fursuits" on IMVU.
> 
> They are not exactly like fursuits in real life. What you were referring to are called "furkinis"
> 
> ...



....but...they are naked....
Just the real difference is: is nipples and genetalia is showing. Which is not...


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## Fawk (Mar 25, 2015)

I want to help do my part in cleaning up the art theft on IMVU. I have always regularly checked new furs to see if I recognized a character and reported to the owner if I did. Now I am going to try and put some extra effort into wall hangings, hopefully with some help identifying artists.

And, if anyone is willing to give IMVU a try, I am more than willing to help people learn the ropes. There are furry heads that will give you muzzles (I don't know why IMVU doesn't include those in their ads, oh how I wish I could be in charge of what outfits are shown in ads, believe me lol). There are also digigrade legs for those who like to look a little more animalistic.

Furry avatars on IMVU may look a little different than those on SL but they aren't bad.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 25, 2015)

Fawk said:


> I want to help do my part in cleaning up the art theft on IMVU. I have always regularly checked new furs to see if I recognized a character and reported to the owner if I did. Now I am going to try and put some extra effort into wall hangings, hopefully with some help identifying artists.
> 
> And, if anyone is willing to give IMVU a try, I am more than willing to help people learn the ropes. There are furry heads that will give you muzzles (I don't know why IMVU doesn't include those in their ads, oh how I wish I could be in charge of what outfits are shown in ads, believe me lol). There are also digigrade legs for those who like to look a little more animalistic.
> 
> Furry avatars on IMVU may look a little different than those on SL but they aren't bad.



They arent bad, just gotta make do with the program can do which is good on IMVU standard.

Thanks for helping on dealing with this issue. Hopefully the outcome from this make IMVU realize there is a problem in the catty that needs to be fixed.


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## Volkodav (Mar 25, 2015)

Fawk said:


> Yes, the 100x80 icons are not very easy to go by.
> Which is why I started this:
> http://imgur.com/a/uzY2r
> 
> ...



Image #28828885 original by *EchoesLight:*
http://echoeslight.com/CSS/images/anthro/a9.jpg

Image #28828574 original by *Falvie:*
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10999220/

Image #28823668 repost by *SpazzyKoneko:*
https://e621.net/post/show/99237/anthro-beach-big_breasts-big_thighs-bikini_bottom-

Image #28728805 original by *Yuurikin:*
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12879939/

Image #28728792 original by *UnicornBlue:*
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10148222/

Image #28714744 repost by *Arlon3:*
https://e621.net/post/show/130638/anthro-arlon3-bed-canine-collar-couple-cuddling-cu
(User is no longer on FA)

The rest I'm having difficulty finding but will continue trying.


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## Tchelline (Mar 25, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I've only been hanging out on here and Weasyl. I've just been posting shit here as I assume that's where Neer's getting his art sources.



Considering how lazy he is, it is quite probable.


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## CaptainCool (Mar 26, 2015)

What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T

Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
> Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T
> 
> Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.



But if they all went to weasyl...they'd have as many active users as the ones who left...then the ones who follow their favorite artists will make Weasyl as active as FA. It's just a matter of taking a leap, new things and new lands are scary, but the long term will be great for everyone. Can't be too scared to play in the pool, ya dig?


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## RCRuskin (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...



What gets me is people going to the new site when there are already furry-fan controlled alternate websites out there, such as SoFurry. Weasyl was created, iirc, as an alternative to DeviantArt and is for more than just furry art.


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## CaptainCool (Mar 26, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> But if they all went to weasyl...they'd have as many active users as the ones who left...then the ones who follow their favorite artists will make Weasyl as active as FA. It's just a matter of taking a leap, new things and new lands are scary, but the long term will be great for everyone. Can't be too scared to play in the pool, ya dig?



But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.


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## FYIAD (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> The issue that I've found with the IMVU catalog is that sometimes you can't view the full image, so you have to try and guess based on a 100x100 icon. Maybe the image would show up underneath the description if I enabled IMVU on NoScript but I just don't feel it's worth the risk of doing so.
> Images like this:
> http://i.imgur.com/UxA4bYt.png
> Were found by going onto e621 and searching "lesbian giraffe" and going through the numerous pages until I found the correct one. On pages where there were no direct links to the original image, I had to go and find the artist on FA and go through their gallery.
> ...



Well, itâ€™s been a while since Iâ€™ve looked at Bernalâ€™s stuff, and you wonâ€™t find it on e621 since he is strictly DNP, but I get the feeling thatâ€™s who the second is from.  Itâ€™s hard to see style in such a tiny frame but I remember him having a desktop background with character similar to that and the feather style looks right to me..but the beak doesnâ€™t.  It could be Alivia (www.furaffinity.net/user/Alivia), but I donâ€™t see it in her gallery.

Youâ€™ve also got to get deeper into your search terms if you get too many hits; the more detailed you are, the more likely you are to miss, but I try to increase my exactness until I get a single page of hits.  So, for that blue jay Iâ€™d run: avian, female, solo to start.  (Avian > blue_jay because youâ€™re going to get people who might tag it as bluebird or something else.)  Obviously, though, that nets a whole lot, so Iâ€™d kick up the detail by trying: leather, lingerie, or boots (I think?).  The similar character designs I found on e621 is how I figured it _may_ be Alivia.

(Correction!  Artist is Onta, Character is Orange04; tags include: avian, bird, blue_jay, hybrid, clothed, clothing, and solo among others that would be less useful.  ^.^  Yayha e621, right?)

As for the ringtail, I kick off with ringtail, female, solo.  This led me to a character that looked about right, I should have trimmed out ringtail and went with stockings instead.  Information: Artist, Eelytak; Character, tee. 

<.<;  Who knew all my hours learning the most common search terms on e621 would come in handy some day?    Itâ€™s all about picking things generic and working your way up the most likely tags until you have a manageable amount of hits; it isnâ€™t going to catch everything that is on e621, but the efficiency gain is worth the drop is 100% accuracy relative to whatâ€™s on e621.



Silvershock said:


> I'm wondering if it would be feasible to do it programmatically. Basic image comparison to the point of reasonable recognition is fairly easy these days, but you'd have to have a base of images to be searching against, so it'd have to be a per-artist tool that they ran themselves.


 
No, I really doubt that.  >.o  Itâ€™d be nice if it were possible, but since all someone would have to do is trim, crop, tilt, discolor, or resize and the search would likely fail.  I mean, you could try running it through Googleâ€™s imagine search, but thatâ€™s going to be a pain in the ass.  If it werenâ€™t for the fact that the content is hidden behind a paywall, the easiest way would be do a targeted image search: <Insert Image> site:IMVU.com, and let her rip.  However, since Google hasnâ€™t indexed those areas, I just donâ€™t see any viable way to carry this out.


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## Volkodav (Mar 26, 2015)

Oh no, I already found the sources to those images. Sorry for making you go search around! D:

https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/1353961-FA-IMVU-Discussion?p=5114362&highlight=#post5114362


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## FYIAD (Mar 26, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> not to mention many IMVU users pointed out you can convert it back...


 
Granted, it appears my methods were more work than alternatives, but Iâ€™ve never been to IMVU and I spotted it immediately.  <.<  Seriously, Iâ€™m kind of entertained that people over look it because Iâ€™m fairly certain Iâ€™m not a villain who simply hasnâ€™tâ€™ found his calling yet.



NoahGryphon said:


> A theory i thought up is that IMVU is working on a new project/game only about furs. like it will be built from the ground up to so that users can make thier fursona down to the last detail, with muzzles that actually look good and stuff.


 
If not for the fact I suspect wagering may be an offense here, Iâ€™ll just say that Iâ€™d put down $50 on 5:1 Against that being the case.  


Quick Note on the Economic Situation of Artists Relating to IMVU

I do not believe artists are losing money in the vast majority of cases here.  It is that artists _stand_ to lose money as their intellectual property is being wrongly sold without license or compensation.  For artists to _actually_ lose money, the artist would have to be properly selling their content on IMVU and another user comes along and offers a bootlegged version at a discount.  Itâ€™s kind of a nitpicky point, but most the losses arenâ€™t realized by the artist.

Copyright is kind of tricky when it comes to figuring out losses; not everyone who pirated a copy of Eiffel 65â€™s album way back in the days of Napster was a person who would otherwise have bought the album.  The moral concern here is that IMVU is profiting by allowing stolen content to flourish and its purveyors thrive.  Their business seems to be about, in part, facilitating infringement and profiting from IP theft.  In short, there isnâ€™t anyone out there that could rightly claim that what IMVU users are doing is really â€œfair useâ€ or anything that probably be given that the _artist is being deprived of the right to profit from their work._  To be honest, the whole thing is a headache for a bunch of different reasons; but the short point I meant to make is that art being put on IMVU isnâ€™t really acting as a disincentive for artists to take commissions.  That isnâ€™t anything anyone needs to worry about at this time; the bulk of the issue is that people are profiting from the theft of IP rights, which just doesnâ€™t weigh on commission incentives in any way that I can determine.

For that matter, there is very little reason for artists to leave FA over this reason.  Art on Weasyl and elsewhere will be stolen just as easily as it can be from FA; it is about not allying oneself with a company that seems to be wrongly profiting from other peoplesâ€™ hard work.  Given the benefits of staying with FA, I do not believe youâ€™ll see a mass exodus â€“ at least, you wonâ€™t see one that involves burning bridges with FA.  Instead, theyâ€™re more likely to branch out to cover their bases.

The problem right now that Weasyl and InkBunny face is that theyâ€™re stuck in that awkward position of waiting for a group to take the first big, permanent step.  Itâ€™s akin to when carmakers didnâ€™t want to invest too much into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles because there wasnâ€™t an infrastructure in place to service that need; and the gas stations didnâ€™t want to invest in building out that infrastructure because carmakers werenâ€™t making fuel cell vehicles.  It really does not matter so much which group carries out the exodus first so long as ties were broken with FA.  Itâ€™s a symbiotic relationship, really.  The greatest concern of users is being where the greatest amount of talent is, and the talent is going to where theyâ€™re going to make the most money or gain the most recognition.  Tempt one group and the other will follow soon after.  

Anyway, just my long winded thoughts on the matter.


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## FYIAD (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Oh no, I already found the sources to those images. Sorry for making you go search around! D:
> 
> https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/1353961-FA-IMVU-Discussion?p=5114362&highlight=#post5114362




  No worries!  I got pulled away while I was writing and things happened before I could get back to work.  Such is life, right?  It's actually kind of a fun challenge.  At least, it is for a little while.


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## FYIAD (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.



Actually, two points of objection on this.

First, the Zaush thing was of a completely different calibre than the IMVU acquisition, and it is certainly a much larger deal if when nasty changes come down the line.  Not to get into that whole mess, but it just wasnâ€™t a relevant matter to most users.  People might be upset, but leaving a site because an employee may have done something heinous?  Hell, if that were the case there wouldnâ€™t be any business of significant size over a long period.  Even if allegations were true, I still figure people deserve a chance to redeem themselves.   Then again, I admit I didnâ€™t follow it closely and my memory isnâ€™t the best, so if Iâ€™m missing something that made it more relevant then I apologize for that.

Second, I suppose the really depends on how you define significant, but I think a double digit growth is a big deal.  Only time will tell, but if in three months Weasylâ€™s active user base is up 5%, that isnâ€™t nothing; itâ€™s a fine start, and Iâ€™m hoping theyâ€™ll do even better than that.  The big lesson here is that we shouldnâ€™t have all our eggs in one basket if we arenâ€™t the ones in control of said basket; diversification does the fandom good.


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## Runefox (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
> Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T



By that measure, nobody should ever leave FA or DeviantArt, because they are where the largest userbase exists.

This is the mentality that Dragoneer and IMVU are banking on.

No, the problem with Weasyl is a chicken-and-egg problem. Without artists, there are no users, and without users, there are no artists. It takes a situation like this to drive adoption, although the safer course of action is to simply expand and drop FA gradually. Currently, FA offers pretty much the worst viewing experience for art anyway, since anything over 1280x1280 is resized and JPEGified pretty hard. There are obviously workarounds, but that's more work for the artist for a pretty lousy return in legibility. Every other site offers a full view of the original piece. An artist might say "Hit up my (weasyl/IB/whatever)" gallery for a bigger version" and allow for a trickle of traffic to pour over to their Weasyl before jumping ship.



CaptainCool said:


> But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.



Oh.







(One (already established on Weasyl) artist's watch log over the last day or so)


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## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 26, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> lets not forget what Tchellin has stated, this is just the tip of the iceberg, when the parents of the 12-14 year olds discover that IMVU just bought a Porn site. It is considered a porn site lets not fool ourselves, and believe that just because we have some clean art we are not all porn. The simple truth is Paypal one of the largest money brokers on the net Lists Furaffinity as a porn site and bans all Accounts that are caught buy and selling items from Furaffinity. this means that if Paypal lists us as a porn site we are considered a Porn. It does not matter the G rated art is created and sold there, the sites demographic is indeed XXX. this stands for everything IMVU is not and after Varsha Posted a link to FA in a G rated site basically full of children and some adults it put a ugly stain on this whole deal even more. the parents are going to be pissed and if they find out they are going to ban their kids from using IMVU which will then cause IMVU to have to take some very drastic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That PayPal statement is a rumor proven false. They have publicly said that they don't consider is a porn site and don't ban people for buying and selling FA art unless it is porn. The cases where people were banned we're things like someone putting gay porn as the message as a joke and they took it seriously. Or actually selling porn.


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
> Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T
> 
> Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.



I wonder if people brought forward similar arguments back when SheezyArt purged adult art.


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## Croconaw (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
> Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T
> 
> Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.



Those who rely on ONE source for their income deserve the burn tbh. Even in the art world outside of FA, it's all about networking and stretching yourself out to multiple resources.


The mantra shouldn't be "Leave FA for Weasyl". What it should be is a call to arms for artists to /expand/ their signal to other websites while keeping their tabs on FA until it becomes too unbearable for them. Is it really going to hurt yo have your art on DA/Wysp/Weasyl? Not really. The pain is getting everything ported over, but that's all the responsibility that comes with wanting to make money off of your art.


So while I feel for these artists being burned on FA who solely rely on FA, I can't feel too much for them if they refuse to utilize multiple resources.



Tl;dr- Don't put your eggs in one basket.


----------



## rjbartrop (Mar 26, 2015)

Runefox said:


> By that measure, nobody should ever leave FA or DeviantArt, because they are where the largest userbase exists.
> 
> This is the mentality that Dragoneer and IMVU are banking on.
> 
> No, the problem with Weasyl is a chicken-and-egg problem. Without artists, there are no users, and without users, there are no artists. It takes a situation like this to drive adoption, although the safer course of action is to simply expand and drop FA gradually. Currently, FA offers pretty much the worst viewing experience for art anyway, since anything over 1280x1280 is resized and JPEGified pretty hard. There are obviously workarounds, but that's more work for the artist for a pretty lousy return in legibility. Every other site offers a full view of the original piece. An artist might say "Hit up my (weasyl/IB/whatever)" gallery for a bigger version" and allow for a trickle of traffic to pour over to their Weasyl before jumping ship.



Already on Weasyl too, and I think it's something you should do whatever your feelings about FA.  Depending on just one site for business is bad planning.   I also think if you are going to make the move, it's a whole lot less stressful to do it over time, and try to build up your presence.   It probably took a while to build up your audience on FA, so it shouldn't be a surprise that you're going to have to do the same on another site.   Weasyl also has a lot of very good artists who aren't on FA, so it's worth having an account to follow them.

This is about redundancy.   I like Weasyl, and I hope it continues to grow and prosper, but depending on it as you sole source of income is just as bad an idea as depending on FA.

dA does have size and stability going for it, but it also shows that size isn't everything.   It is very easy to get lost in the crowd there, and to a certain extent  the same is true of FA.   If you go to any site with the expectation that you just have to put up a page, and a flood of orders will result, prepare to be disappointed.   Networking may be a hoary old business buzzword, but it does work, and you don't need an art site to do it.

     Anyone remember FurryMUCK?  It's coming up on the quarter century mark, and has maybe a hundred people on it at any one time.  Half the fandom doesn't know what it is, and the other half thinks it's dead, and that nobody goes there.  Yet half my commissions are from these "nobodies", just from talking with them, and because they know me.  Social sites like Second Life, and yes, maybe even IMVU, might be worth checking out as a way of cultivating these contacts.

     The important point here is, you have options.


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## Volkodav (Mar 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Those who rely on ONE source for their income deserve the burn tbh.



That's a shitty thing to say, man.


----------



## sethtriggs (Mar 26, 2015)

If some of that disaffected development talent would pull together and make a bulk uploader for the other sites (like Weasyl), that would definitely help artists feel more comfortable with moving over, especially if they have a lot of art to port. Remember, a lot of the reasons people will watch another artist is due to getting to see lots of things in their gallery. Making this process less time-consuming would be great. I know SoFurry, for example, has a bulk uploader and that was kinda useful for me till it turned out that the domain got blocked on some of my connections.

As it is, I've gotten into the habit of crossposting, as it is not wise to put all eggs in one basket. I'd certainly like to maintain two baskets.

And I guess looking at my stats on Weasyl, with my 4K pageviews there I'm actually in the top echelon! Still haven't gained a commission from that site, but I'm apparently doing better than a lot of prominent artists there. At the very least though I think a lot of the people there could be doing a lot better with the aid of a bulk uploader.


----------



## Croconaw (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> That's a shitty thing to say, man.



it's called being real. Deal wIth it. 

It's a principle of how anything network-associated works with a third-party medium.


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## Volkodav (Mar 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> it's called being real. Deal wIth it.
> 
> It's a principle of how anything network-associated works with a third-party medium.


So because they don't feel like doing what you've expected or suggested them to do, they "deserve to burn" for it?
I would understand if you were to say "it's not a smart idea to only advertise your art on one website" but to go so far as to say "deserve to burn"...
C'mon :/
That's just malicious.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 26, 2015)

Runefox said:


> By that measure, nobody should ever leave FA or DeviantArt, because they are where the largest userbase exists.
> 
> This is the mentality that Dragoneer and IMVU are banking on.
> 
> ...



Those are awesome news to see. And yeah, Dragoneer pretty much relies in the fact that furries are not going to leave for te sole reason of numbers.

UNFORTUNATELY I compared Weasyl's numbers in Alexa before and after the Imvu scam, and their averwge users per day only grew from 1.6 thousand to 1.8.

but I guess progress is progress even if little. With all this anger I have forgotten to say that Runefox got one of the sexiest icons I have seen in years.


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## Runefox (Mar 26, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> UNFORTUNATELY I compared Weasyl's numbers in Alexa before and after the Imvu scam, and their averwge users per day only grew from 1.6 thousand to 1.8.


200 users is nothing to sneeze at as an average users par day count, especially if the previous number was 1600; A 12.5% increase. That's not even taking into consideration that Alexa tracking is only an estimation. By their own numbers, though, 11.6% of traffic is referred to Weasyl via FA.

But all that aside, it isn't specifically Weasyl that people should go to. The idea is to reduce the grip that FurAffinity has on the community, and spreading out to Weasyl, Inkbunny, SoFurry, etc are all viable alternatives, and really, for maximum exposure and padding against the ass falling out of FurAffinity, it should be more than one of them. Really, the way it needs to happen is for the popular artists to go first, and the userbase will follow. If an artist feels like Weasyl, Inkbunny, or SoFurry just don't have the users to abandon ship right away, they should at least begin posting there on a regular basis to grow their support base. Even beyond FurAffinity's woes, more exposure is always better, so I really don't see any excuse besides that it takes longer to update multiple sites. A working crossposter would definitely be a great help there, and with several in development, I think a couple months worth of doing it by hand is worth the exposure now that eyes are turning outward.



> but I guess progress is progress even if little. With all this anger I have forgotten to say that Runefox got one of the sexiest icons I have seen in years.


Hah, I don't know about that, but thanks. It's the product of a few years of off and on work. Really it only took probably a couple weeks of steady work, but it's had a few revisions.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Mar 26, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.



While this is true, but the situation with Zaush at the heart of it didn't have enough proof to bank on. People can think all they want, but if you're asking people to leave, you need proof. This situation is different, we have it. People are fed up, and are looking at the best thing to do here, so we need to jump on it.



			
				Croconaw said:
			
		

> _it's called being real. Deal wIth it. _
> 
> _It's a principle of how anything network-associated works with a third-party medium._



Incorrect in that people should be burned for it, you need to drop that attitude right now. But on everything else you are correct, it isn't smart nor safe to put all your art in one place. The same situation could happen to any site, anywhere. I mean we even see that influx of journals go up when FA announces down time right? 

But the thing is not every fur / artist here really understands the importance. Yes there are some *cough* idiots */cough* here, but some people aren't convinced there is a problem, or that there could ever be one. Some people don't want to take the time to move, some people don't understand the idea of safe business, etc. This community needs people to look out for each other in that regard, help show them and teach them the importance and dangers of conducting themselves on this and other sites.

That kind of attitude right there, maybe you think it is justified but that is what keeps people away from our side of things. They see oh look how rude these people are, they must be wrong. It's that easy to shut down an argument based on how it is presented. This is why I feel people like Rowe were banned, it's scarier to present a clear-headed argument because people listen to it better as opposed to just whining or screaming or name calling.



			
				Croconaw said:
			
		

> The mantra shouldn't be "Leave FA for Weasyl". What it should be is a call to arms for artists to /expand/ their signal to other websites while keeping their tabs on FA until it becomes too unbearable for them. Is it really going to hurt yo have your art on DA/Wysp/Weasyl? Not really. The pain is getting everything ported over, but that's all the responsibility that comes with wanting to make money off of your art.



However you're entirely true here. This is why tools like the cross poster need to be advertised. I'm not sure the best way to tackle this one head on, I think the best thing is to offer the choice and an unbiased look at each site. Give people the choice to move and what site winds up becoming the general go-to can be sorted out later.

The important thing is that people need to understand the power they have. If people leave FA en masse then it will set a precedent that you actually need to maintain your sites, treat your users with respect. By staying on FA there is no reason at all for them to improve. This is why we've had 10 years of almost no progress, because there isn't any need for it. At the end of the day, there are too many white-knights, brown-nosers, supporters, etc. These people are holding back progress.

If anyone wants things to change, we need to get out, make a stand. This could even be great for FA, if there was some serious desperate need to bring people back, it'll happen. If it doesn't well, he has had plenty of time to fix that.


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## Blitza (Mar 26, 2015)

and more Artists leaving from FA now ..... @Neer shouldnt you get up and try at last an bit damage recovery or are you too busy with getting art ^^:::


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## Croconaw (Mar 26, 2015)

@Alpha: So you just said I was wrong right on my first part. Colored me confused.

those that have been on FA for this long know how this site works. Why they have yet to take a hint by now and spread out to the dozens of other resources out there for networking is anything but foolish. 



You're saying my initial statement was incorrect simply because they're ignorant to that principle. That alone is just.... what?


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 26, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> Some people don't want to take the time to move, some people don't understand the idea of safe business, etc. This community needs people to look out for each other in that regard, help show them and teach them the importance and dangers of conducting themselves on this and other sites.



We don't need to do anything of the sort. That's kinda patronizing. Artists are big girls and big boys. (That's why most just branch out to Weasyl...its more wise than just jumping ship into unknown waters)

I would never presume to tell someone their switching sites was gonna doom their business. That's their business. They are more familiar with it, and they alone know what their bills and expenses are. They don't need some "guardian angels" to hold their hand through life. If they really are so hotheaded as to go into situations like that...they have to learn somehow. 

Croc doesn't sugar coat shit, and I've noticed in this fandom, people's tits get flustered over real talk.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 26, 2015)

@croc I meant people burning for bad decisions is incorrect, that was poor writing on my part, my bad.



Butters Shikkon said:


> We don't need to do anything of the sort. That's kinda patronizing. Artists are big girls and big boys. (That's why most just branch out to Weasyl...its more wise than just jumping ship into unknown waters)
> 
> 
> I would never presume to tell someone their switching sites was gonna doom their business. That's their business. They are more familiar with it, and they alone know what their bills and expenses are. They don't need some "guardian angels" to hold their hand through life. If they really are so hotheaded as to go into situations like that...they have to learn somehow.
> ...



No I'm agreeing that people should switch, and that it enough people do it , it won't harm anything.


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## Tchelline (Mar 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> @Alpha: So you just said I was wrong right on my first part. Colored me confused.
> 
> those that have been on FA for this long know how this site works. Why they have yet to take a hint by now and spread out to the dozens of other resources out there for networking is anything but foolish.
> 
> ...



Because this is not like the previous times. Did Zaush's supposed act of rape affected you somehow? No, only if you are a SJW. But the FA buyout affects us all doe to the very VERY high chance of the site becoming a paid one due to how much they invested to get this.


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## RTDragon (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> So because they don't feel like doing what you've expected or suggested them to do, they "deserve to burn" for it?
> I would understand if you were to say "it's not a smart idea to only advertise your art on one website" but to go so far as to say "deserve to burn"...
> C'mon :/
> That's just malicious.



I really hate to say this but the croc has a point that's actually how networking works for artists considering how this is a niche site compared to the actual professional sites. Plus usually those sites have been there for year you can usually tell a professional site from the artist that actually have jobs there as well as standards. I don't feel what croconaw says is malicious but blunt and straight to the point. I hate to say this but relying on furry art for a career is suicide. Most artists have variety.
As we have seen on the creative media forums before with the critiques.



alphaomegaone said:


> Incorrect, and you need to drop that attitude now. See, you are correct, it isn't smart nor safe to put all your art in one place. The same situation could happen to any site, anywhere. I mean we even see that influx of journals go up when FA announces down time right?
> 
> But the thing is not every fur / artist here really understands the importance. Yes there are some *cough* idiots */cough* here, but some people aren't convinced there is a problem, or that there could ever be one. Some people don't want to take the time to move, some people don't understand the idea of safe business, etc. This community needs people to look out for each other in that regard, help show them and teach them the importance and dangers of conducting themselves on this and other sites.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately this is also true but the croc has a point though it's been like this for all these ten it's about time someone called that type of mentality out. It does'nt help at all in the short or long term of things.


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## Smelge (Mar 26, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Because this is not like the previous times. Did Zaush's supposed act of rape affected you somehow? No, only if you are a SJW. But the FA buyout affects us all doe to the very VERY high chance of the site becoming a paid one due to how much they invested to get this.



Well yes, it rather did affect people. If it had been just the accusations on their own, that's bad but not worth leaving for. That person then being given creative control over a site rewrite and dissenters magically disappearing does affect people. Who wants to be part of a site where potential rapists are given important positions?


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## chesse20 (Mar 26, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Well yes, it rather did affect people. If it had been just the accusations on their own, that's bad but not worth leaving for. That person then being given creative control over a site rewrite and dissenters magically disappearing does affect people. Who wants to be part of a site where potential rapists are given important positions?


ppl just have to deal with it b/c there's no good alternatives for furaffinity because all other sites have very small userbases or are deviantart and nobody wants to use deviantart because of it's shitty porn policies and awful community mostly made up of middle schoolers


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## RTDragon (Mar 26, 2015)

chesse20 said:


> ppl just have to deal with it b/c there's no good alternatives for furaffinity because all other sites have very small userbases or are deviantart and nobody wants to use deviantart because of it's shitty porn policies and awful community mostly made up of middle schoolers



You can stop posting now. That is the most stupid advice i ever heard someone does'nt branch out beyond the furry porn.


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## FYIAD (Mar 26, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> We don't need to do anything of the sort. That's kinda patronizing. Artists are big girls and big boys. (That's why most just branch out to Weasyl...its more wise than just jumping ship into unknown waters)
> 
> I would never presume to tell someone their switching sites was gonna doom their business. That's their business. They are more familiar with it, and they alone know what their bills and expenses are. They don't need some "guardian angels" to hold their hand through life. If they really are so hotheaded as to go into situations like that...they have to learn somehow.
> 
> Croc doesn't sugar coat shit, and I've noticed in this fandom, people's tits get flustered over real talk.



I am a proponent of expanding information and understanding whenever I can; thereâ€™s a lot I didnâ€™t know, and that I would have gone on not knowing, had people not taken the time to remedy my ignorance.  However, Iâ€™m not going to be for forcing my â€œadviceâ€ on folks.  I can inform, I can share thoughts, but thatâ€™s the extent; Iâ€™m not going to tell people how to do stuff, it isnâ€™t my choice to make and Iâ€™m not for shoving things down peopleâ€™s throats.

So I guess itâ€™s a matter of degrees, then?  Iâ€™m trying to be a better community member here, breaking my habitual silence; but Iâ€™m no oneâ€™s guardian angel.  Happy to help, but Iâ€™m not going to be knocking on peopleâ€™s doors, pamphlets in hand, eager to force my views on folks.


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## Croconaw (Mar 26, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Because this is not like the previous times. Did Zaush's supposed act of rape affected you somehow? No, only if you are a SJW. But the FA buyout affects us all doe to the very VERY high chance of the site becoming a paid one due to how much they invested to get this.



The signs are there of poor site management. With constant down times, failed promises of features, questionable staff (womanizer/rapist, known hacker and beastiality offender), and misappropriated/unaccounted funds being thrown around, the signs are there for ANYONE looking to make a profit that this boat is going to sink one day. 

It's like someone saying "we didnt realize this was a bad car to buy cause it didn't catch fire the other times" when the car already showed signs of wear and tear and poor construction. I've been with FA for almost 7 years now. I know how poorly built this site is. The only thing going for it was its population, which was contrived simply due to the timing of its creation and nothing else. 


Though, bad website or not, putting your eggs in one basket is never the way to go, especially for artists/graphic design. Furry porn can only pay for so many of your bills.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> The signs are there of poor site management. With constant down times, failed promises of features, questionable staff (womanizer/rapist, known hacker and beastiality offender), and misappropriated/unaccounted funds being thrown around, the signs are there for ANYONE looking to make a profit that this boat is going to sink one day.
> 
> It's like someone saying "we didnt realize this was a bad car to buy cause it didn't catch fire the other times" when the car already showed signs of wear and tear and poor construction. I've been with FA for almost 7 years now. I know how poorly built this site is. The only thing going for it was its population, which was contrived simply due to the timing of its creation and nothing else.
> 
> ...


Let us not also forget that time FA was down for a rather long time, I would expect folks to then you know...spread out, heck from that many artist started to instead decided to no longer use notes but email so that way even if FA is down they can still get a hold of those who commissioned em.


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## RTDragon (Mar 26, 2015)

So anyone seen this yet? http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606934#cid:45033986


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## PastryOfApathy (Mar 26, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> So anyone seen this yet? http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6606934#cid:45033986



Random PR talk? Man this solves everything! You get a gold star Dragoneer, good job!


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## RCRuskin (Mar 26, 2015)

The link did not bring up any comments

In it's place:  	Comment hidden by the Administration


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## Runefox (Mar 26, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> The link did not bring up any comments
> 
> In it's place:  	Comment hidden by the Administration



[video=youtube;1ytCEuuW2_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A[/video]

Do we have a screencap?


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 26, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> The link did not bring up any comments
> 
> In it's place:      Comment hidden by the Administration



Well, looks like the admins went full pussy, censoring the posts.....now where have I heard that before.....where have I seen Big Brother and dystopian social commentaries.  Oh, that's right, right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
and right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian


Yes, that's where I've seen this bullshit censorship for pussies before, in Orwellian societies.

And and this journal here http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6607784/ was removed due to the OP not wanting to cause more issues

Edit:  Updated reason.


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## rjbartrop (Mar 26, 2015)

Turns out the journal was removed by the person who created it http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6610899/


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 26, 2015)

rjbartrop said:


> Turns out the journal was removed by the person who created it http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6610899/



Well then... Are we gonna help or just complain all day?


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## NoahGryphon (Mar 26, 2015)

IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> The signs are there of poor site management. With constant down times, failed promises of features, questionable staff (womanizer/rapist, known hacker and beastiality offender), and misappropriated/unaccounted funds being thrown around, the signs are there for ANYONE looking to make a profit that this boat is going to sink one day.
> 
> It's like someone saying "we didnt realize this was a bad car to buy cause it didn't catch fire the other times" when the car already showed signs of wear and tear and poor construction. I've been with FA for almost 7 years now. I know how poorly built this site is. The only thing going for it was its population, which was contrived simply due to the timing of its creation and nothing else.
> 
> Though, bad website or not, putting your eggs in one basket is never the way to go, especially for artists/graphic design. Furry porn can only pay for so many of your bills.



*shrugs* Well, my car might suck, but it gets me where I want to go.

As far as porn goes, some artists are able to make a living off of their art, and FWIW someone I know is making a living WITHOUT resorting to porn.




NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.



I don't think anyone's necessarily the enemy here, but it wouldn't surprise me if some are working towards their own interests and ignoring the group. IMVU, I have no idea what the hell they're doing and how they're getting anything out of this deal but that's just me.


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## shteev (Mar 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> The signs are there of poor site management. With constant down times, failed promises of features, questionable staff (womanizer/rapist, known hacker and beastiality offender), and misappropriated/unaccounted funds being thrown around, the signs are there for ANYONE looking to make a profit that this boat is going to sink one day.
> 
> It's like someone saying "we didnt realize this was a bad car to buy cause it didn't catch fire the other times" when the car already showed signs of wear and tear and poor construction. I've been with FA for almost 7 years now. I know how poorly built this site is. The only thing going for it was its population, which was contrived simply due to the timing of its creation and nothing else.



I love car analogies


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## Volkodav (Mar 26, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.



You're doing a disservice to FA. The last thing we need is someone who blindly supports Dragoneer and FA and goes around spouting off such gems as "Degenerates like you deserve only death" to people who don't want to stay on FA. _Especially_ when IMVU is watching this thread.

Do yourself a favour and just go back to supporting FA on your own page, this thread isn't suited to your interests.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> You're doing a disservice to FA. The last thing we need is someone who blindly supports Dragoneer and FA and goes around spouting off such gems as "Degenerates like you deserve only death" to people who don't want to stay on FA. _Especially_ when IMVU is watching this thread.
> 
> Do yourself a favour and just go back to supporting FA on your own page, this thread isn't suited to your interests.



Odd, I feel like I remember this moment in a dream.

Anyway. When we talk as community, accept dissent. It's unnecessary to fight like lions here (where we are looking in the best interest of everybody, not just the 99%).

We want to talk about the admins being pussy, when we back out of shit we don't like. 

-Take this time to accuse me of whatever. Somebody has to say something-


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## Volkodav (Mar 26, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Odd, I feel like I remember this moment in a dream.
> 
> Anyway. When we talk as community, accept dissent. It's unnecessary to fight like lions here (where we are looking in the best interest of everybody, not just the 99%).
> 
> ...



I understand this but comments like that ^ on the forums and mainsite (which is what I quoted) help nothing and nobody and do nothing but give the staff one more reason to lock this thread.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> I understand this but comments like that ^ on the forums and mainsite (which is what I quoted) help nothing and nobody and do nothing but give the staff one more reason to lock this thread.



So take the information & act accordingly because right now, my tolerance for this thread has reached 0 & so has NoahGryphon's. I'm all for a movement here, but all I can gather from this thread is "OMG this is bad, Neer you cock! I'm running off to Weasyl, it'll solve all my problems"

Well actually...
A part of me wants this thread locked, another side wants to make sure everybody's on the same page & something good happens for all of us.
Please, just be aware of that.


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 26, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> So take the information & act accordingly because right now, my tolerance for this thread has reached 0 & so has NoahGryphon's. I'm all for a movement here, but all I can gather from this thread is "OMG this is bad, Neer you cock! I'm running off to Weasyl, it'll solve all my problems"
> 
> Well actually...
> A part of me wants this thread locked, another side wants to make sure everybody's on the same page & something good happens for all of us.
> Please, just be aware of that.



It's only doing that because no one knows what else to do. We can't exactly start telling everyone on FA to move, we'll be censored and have posts deleted. We can't talk about how bad Dragoneer is because we'll be banned. We're just perpetuating the annoyances that have gone on for years. 

Something has to be done, but what?


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## Volkodav (Mar 26, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> It's only doing that because no one knows what else to do. We can't exactly start telling everyone on FA to move, we'll be censored and have posts deleted. We can't talk about how bad Dragoneer is because we'll be banned. We're just perpetuating the annoyances that have gone on for years.
> 
> Something has to be done, but what?



Who's saying you can't tell other users to move? Are those journals/comments really being deleted?


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## alphaomegaone (Mar 26, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Who's saying you can't tell other users to move? Are those journals/comments really being deleted?



I've seen examples here and there, yeah. There's a comment chain about it at the top of the latest journal.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 26, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.



Sycophancy much? What do expect us to do, happily submit to every whim and pretend there isn't a problem?  Oh and using the term "retards", really dude? How mature. If anything, the white knighting sycophants are the enemy.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 27, 2015)

I am not as burn them all down as croc was, but I will say that the ancient proverb, "never place all your eggs in one basket" still is very relevant to this situation. Artists who have relied solely on one site for to long, out of fear of branching out, are setting themselves up to fail. Nothing lasts forever, everything breaks down eventually. 

If you want to use car analogy, when you buy a new car its new, its hot, its the thing. Years pass the car breaks down, you fix and fix and fix it. eventually no matter how much you keep fixing it, it will eventually have to be replaced. the essence of a sinking ship you can only repair it so much before it time to find a new one. 

This site started strong has held a long time, but through bad decision and management not doing enough it has totally broke down. It never got upgrades that were promised, the funds are for lack of a better word misappropriated, and its coding is ancient. 

The reasons people use to not want to branch out and be ready for a coming disaster is financial suicide. FA has had its run now it no longer belongs to the very community that have kept it alive over all the disasters. Artists need to start thinking about branching out and preparing for the sinking ship to flounder. Stop putting all their eggs in one basket and network themselves to ensure their survival. 

Yes it can be scary for artists that make a living off FA, but if they posted in say So Furry Weasyl and Inkbunny as well as FA, they reach a wider audience. Sure they may not get as many viewers right away from those sites but the more they post to them and let people know where they are, the more they will see revenue coming in. They may even be able to develop a Broader clientele base to bring in more money. Why commit Financial Suicide Clinging to a broken ship that has been giving you nothing but broken promises for many years.

Its Never easy to leave ones home and branch out, but if you want to survive in this day and age you have to network out and grow your business to reach more clients. Clinging to a single site you are setting yourself up to fail, and I am sorry if it seems like to much work but sites are going to come and go. You have to prepare to branch out as often as possible to build a network that can last the test of time. 

Last analogy is a tree by a river, Trees have solid foundations from having roots that stretch out in all directions to collect as much water from the ground as possible, If the tree by the river only had one root, the one going to the river, eventually when the river dries up, it would wither and die. But the tree by the river is still going to expand its roots out to more areas then just the river, in case the rivers water ceases. Building a foundation that extends all over is what allows the tree to grow and thrive through harsh weather. As a Furry artist you should be building your foundation in multiple locations, because water sources come from all around not just the one river that you have been drinking from for years. Never expect that river to feed you forever, branch out and gain nutrients (clients), from all the soil around you as well. When the River (FA) dries up, you will not wither and die. 

Anyway I agree with Croc not branching out and being prepared, your committing financial suicide.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

I would add more to Deviant Art, but the tagging system seems to be very strange, like, if I order the tags something like "macro, vixen, foot", it turns up something like "foot, macro, vixen" or something odd like that, I find it to be very annoying.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 27, 2015)

I can understand that I know nothing of DA never really got involved with them. Still there is a lot of potential customers out there in many possible locations. Branching out to survive the coming storm is what its all about. Build your foundation and be prepared for S** to hit the fan.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> I would add more to Deviant Art, but the tagging system seems to be very strange, like, if I order the tags something like "macro, vixen, foot", it turns up something like "foot, macro, vixen" or something odd like that, I find it to be very annoying.



why is that annoying?


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> why is that annoying?



Doesn't it make it harder to categorize, I don't know why, when I submit the artwork, the tags are in order, but when I view the pic later, they're not; I don't know what the tag system wants me to do.


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## FoxWolfie (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> I don't know why, when I submit the artwork, the tags are in order, but when I view the pic later, they're not; I don't know what the tag system wants me to do.



Most sites sort their tags either by frequency or alphabetically.  Using other sites can take some getting used to.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Doesn't it make it harder to categorize, I don't know why, when I submit the artwork, the tags are in order, but when I view the pic later, they're not; I don't know what the tag system wants me to do.


but the order of the tags dont really matter...


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## Smelge (Mar 27, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.



Hi, I see you live in Michigan. A place that was completely untouched by the stuff the Nazis did. I suggest reading a few articles on places like Belsen and Auschwitz before you start comparing people who are fed up with poor leadership and admin decisions, and people who willingly executed millions of people in horrible ways for crimes such as religion or not being seen as genetically pure then having their bodies dumped into mass graves so nobody would ever find out who they were.

So how about you try shutting the fuck up and going to learn something for a bit instead of spouting off bullshit about stuff you don't understand.


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## RCRuskin (Mar 27, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.



Not Dragoneer refusing assistance from the furry community? He strikes me as the real enemy. There, I said it. I've been trying to assist him with the site within my means since 2007 when he took over, and no response from him whatsoever. Other furs come up with large sums of cash for him to use to benefit the site; he does nothing.

How do you see him as being a friend to the furry fandom?


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 27, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> So take the information & act accordingly because right now, my tolerance for this thread has reached 0 & so has NoahGryphon's. I'm all for a movement here, but all I can gather from this thread is "OMG this is bad, Neer you cock! I'm running off to Weasyl, it'll solve all my problems"
> 
> Well actually...
> A part of me wants this thread locked, another side wants to make sure everybody's on the same page & something good happens for all of us.
> Please, just be aware of that.



You know for someone who is completely dense for a 16 year old who is so obsessed to being a popufur. you certainly have some very poor unrealistic expectations.  I can see why your getting so much flack because of what your posting i see your the type that does'nt think before they post.



Smelge said:


> Hi, I see you live in Michigan. A place that was completely untouched by the stuff the Nazis did. I suggest reading a few articles on places like Belsen and Auschwitz before you start comparing people who are fed up with poor leadership and admin decisions, and people who willingly executed millions of people in horrible ways for crimes such as religion or not being seen as genetically pure then having their bodies dumped into mass graves so nobody would ever find out who they were.
> So how about you try shutting the fuck up and going to learn something for a bit instead of spouting off bullshit about stuff you don't understand.



Unfortunately now that i know he lives in michigan i cannot believe i live in the same state as him. And reading that comment from him about nazis and retards has just invoked goodwin law. though this is not surprising coming from noah since i remember the FAF comic thread has a strong dislike about him.

EDIT Oh and i see you also made a journal about this. https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6611124/ Congratulations you've officially made a fool of yourself even more. People don't lie if there a repeat pattern or issues that follow for years. And bringing up nazis in this thread without even knowing your history is really not just stupid but asking for it.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 27, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> It's only doing that because no one knows what else to do. We can't exactly start telling everyone on FA to move, we'll be censored and have posts deleted. We can't talk about how bad Dragoneer is because we'll be banned. We're just perpetuating the annoyances that have gone on for years.
> 
> Something has to be done, but what?


 
Exactly.  My only active recourse, if you could call it that, is to try to prepare for a time when FA can be brought back into fandom control.  I prefer sooner rather than later, but itâ€™s a process regardless.  

However, there is a discouraging feel seeing how things are slowing down at such a pace, like elastic pulled too tight the momentum to act in any fashion is fading fast.  I know thatâ€™s how it goes, and it is compounded by the fact that there isnâ€™t a clear alternative short of preparing for an opportunity that may never come and branching out in the meantime.  

That is the absolute bitch if playing the long game.  All that initial energy to rally behind something, to answer the call for action dissipates and all one can do is wait.  It isnâ€™t exciting, it isnâ€™t stimulating, it is work by way of patience and preparation that feels so idle.

One more reason I came to encourage people to spread their presence, I guess; it makes it feel like Iâ€™m at least doing _something_, even if it is so small.  I know the proverb on eggs and baskets, but having gone to get eggs from a coup a time or two, I can rightly say I never carried more than one and it never caused me trouble; all you have to do is watch the damn basket.  The snag here is that people unknown and untrusted are in control, and thatâ€™s the sort of thing that makes all the difference.


On an unrelated note, did this thread get hijacked for the night?  Itâ€™s like a writing exercise for analogies, similes, and the like.   



krystalfox77 said:


> I would add more to Deviant Art, but the tagging system seems to be very strange, like, if I order the tags something like "macro, vixen, foot", it turns up something like "foot, macro, vixen" or something odd like that, I find it to be very annoying.


 
This is like saying that the peanut butter in the peanut butter and jelly sandwich is on the wrong side, that it should be on the top slice with the jelly on the bottom.  It truly doesnâ€™t make the slightest difference.  
The only problem I have with tagging systems is that they are so rarely used half as well as they could be.  Itâ€™s why when I was looking up the stolen art, I went to e621; there are people that dedicate time to tagging, correcting and adding them as necessary.    Got to love the efficiency, right?


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 27, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Exactly.  My only active recourse, if you could call it that, is to try to prepare for a time when FA can be brought back into fandom control.  I prefer sooner rather than later, but itâ€™s a process regardless.
> 
> However, there is a discouraging feel seeing how things are slowing down at such a pace, like elastic pulled too tight the momentum to act in any fashion is fading fast.  I know thatâ€™s how it goes, and it is compounded by the fact that there isnâ€™t a clear alternative short of preparing for an opportunity that may never come and branching out in the meantime.
> 
> ...




No way! The peanut butter should be on the bottom! It's denser, therefore heavier!


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> but the order of the tags dont really matter...



Well, for some reason, I must be doing something wrong since the no. of views..I swear no one ever looks at the submissions. Why should I even bother posting if no one looks at them, you know?


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Well, for some reason, I must be doing something wrong since the no. of views..I swear no one ever looks at the submissions. Why should I even bother posting if no one looks at them, you know?



It's not all that easy to find anything on DA. Too much clutter and artwork. At least for me. @.@



Mizuhiro Neko said:


> No way! The peanut butter should be on the bottom! It's denser, therefore heavier!



Anyone else getting a Right Twix, Left Twix vibe from this? 

Right Twix for life!


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> It's not all that easy to find anything on DA. Too much clutter and artwork. At least for me. @.@
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then...would something like SoFurry be a better place for me to place art? Or InkBunny and/or Weasyl...?


----------



## RCRuskin (Mar 27, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> However, there is a discouraging feel seeing how things are slowing down at such a pace, like elastic pulled too tight the momentum to act in any fashion is fading fast.  I know thatâ€™s how it goes, and it is compounded by the fact that there isnâ€™t a clear alternative short of preparing for an opportunity that may never come and branching out in the meantime.



But, right now, there exist multiple alternatives, though one seems to be offline at the moment.


----------



## rjbartrop (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Well, for some reason, I must be doing something wrong since the no. of views..I swear no one ever looks at the submissions. Why should I even bother posting if no one looks at them, you know?



My thought is that it's still nice to have a spot you can point people to when they ask about about your art.  I use my DA account mostly for non-furry art, and as a sport to point the "normal" people at.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 27, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> You know for someone who is completely dense for a 16 year old who is so obsessed to being a popufur. you certainly have some very poor unrealistic expectations.  I can see why your getting so much flack because of what your posting i see your the type that does'nt think before they post.



Meh. I grew a spine & spoke up. Whether you agree or not is completely up to you, but I will no longer stay quiet due to flak. I expressed my opinion, and I'm not changing it. If you think I'm not thinking before I post, you may want to read my statement alongside with all the things before it. 

Please, this feels like a YouTube comment war.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 27, 2015)

Well it's been officially one week since Neer backstabbed the community, however things aren't going as he planned.

He used the old tactic that so many times before worked for him: waiting for things to cool off. However, this time the severity of his betrayal and negligence has caused a wound that will not close with mere time. 

It's been a week, and people are only angrier than before, people are leaving, changing their icons to show their reject of Imvu. I hope this is the beginning of the absolute furry exodus.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 27, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Wll it's been officially one week since Neer backstabbed the community, however things aren't going as he planned.
> 
> He used the old tactic that so many times before worked for him: waiting for things to cool off. However, this time the severity of his betrayal and negligence has caused a wound that will not close with mere time.
> 
> It's been a week, and people are only angrier than before, people are leaving, changing their icons to show their reject of Imvu. I hope this is the beginning of the absolute furry exodus.



I want to ask for examples, but I'm afraid of what might happen to you. Good recap though. Fits the mood perfectly.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 27, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> So take the information & act accordingly because right now, my tolerance for this thread has reached 0 & so has NoahGryphon's. I'm all for a movement here, but all I can gather from this thread is "OMG this is bad, Neer you cock! I'm running off to Weasyl, it'll solve all my problems"
> 
> Well actually...
> A part of me wants this thread locked, another side wants to make sure everybody's on the same page & something good happens for all of us.
> Please, just be aware of that.



You can only be so indifferent at the inminent danger to the furry economy based in comissions because you do not depend on it. It's easy to think that the poor and unfortunate are dumb when you are basking in luxuries.


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 27, 2015)

Volkodav, manage to get word from one of me mates, said they'll spend some time monday checking out IMVU for better images, they also advise that the best thing to do is to also have a google doc of this that can be updated and checked.

KrystalFox77, I would advise scouting out those sites before hand and see whats you provide will fit along with it, just note both Inkbunny and SoFurry still allow cub porn, but both sites enforce a tagging system and have a black list system.

Everyone else, I'm sure we are still civilized in our conversations (minus noah...that was uncalled for) just instead of hoping this topic gets locked its best to let it run its course. We can still help each other and this topic can remain around to talk about things that have changed for FA and IMVU from this situation.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 27, 2015)

Every furry has the right to live in a world where Dragoneer can't hurt them. He has caused so much damage to all of us, and this blow goes beyond anything anybody can forgive.


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 27, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Meh. I grew a spine & spoke up. Whether you agree or not is completely up to you, but I will no longer stay quiet due to flak. I expressed my opinion, and I'm not changing it. If you think I'm not thinking before I post, you may want to read my statement alongside with all the things before it.
> 
> Please, this feels like a YouTube comment war.



Not from what your posts say you seem to lack understanding of the situation. I would suggest you lurk a bit more in forums before you speak.


----------



## RCRuskin (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm curious on something.

Has anyone told IMVu that Mr. Piche did not own clear title to FA?


----------



## BRN (Mar 27, 2015)

It's worth raising the token statement that many users of FA don't feel compelled to channel their chi into the shitstorm claiming to speak for everybody's interests, and that those users are artists and consumers alike.

What would you say to those people to try and rouse them if they don't particularly feel like anything has really happened?


----------



## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 27, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> Has anyone told IMVu that Mr. Piche did not own clear title to FA?



that is a possibility, but so far no one has any real evidence to back this claim up. the Panderp guy is still digging through documents to see if he can find the evidence. until he has legitimate evidence of such, that is only conjecture and rumor. If he find and proves this, then I am sure many furries would get behind him and want to see that he be given a fair chance, to get what is due him in a court of law. It does not mean we can not hope, but it does mean that its going to be a long uphill battle on his front. As Much as people like to hope for this, We still have to remember this is all rumor mill, until evidence of this is proven in court.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 27, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Every furry has the right to live in a world where Dragoneer can't hurt them. He has caused so much damage to all of us, and this blow goes beyond anything anybody can forgive.


 
Well, you _say_ that, but..
Well, I suppose forgive isnâ€™t the right word.  I just donâ€™t have malice, I just donâ€™t really care; maybe it was shady reasoning, maybe he had a bad idea that he genuinely believed in.  For better or for worse heâ€™s played an outsize role in the fandom over the last ten years.  Like some king in distant lands whose people did not starve and were not routinely rounded up for execution, but who has been overtaken by a new movement; that is how I feel about Dragoneer.  Could have been better, could have been worse; whatever deeds he did are history, his era is past. 

My concern and attention are turned on the new powers that are holding the keys to the castle.  They promise synergy and goodness, but I get a chill looking at them.  They are not of our tribe; they are foreign, and foreign powers rarely overthrow a monarchy for the good of the subjects.

I do agree, though, that there shouldn't be any fear of unearned bans falling from the heavens; censorship is ugly, and all the more so when it is so petty as that.


RCRuskin said:


> I'm curious on something.
> 
> Has anyone told IMVu that Mr. Piche did not own clear title to FA?


 
1) Iâ€™m betting Brett Durrett doesnâ€™t read unsolicited emails; whether or not the poor sap who is stuck dealing with the email account has been informed, I cannot say.  
2) It wonâ€™t matter because:

A) They would continue unphased as acknowledging the claim buys them nothing; they will fight it in court, but they wonâ€™t just stop and be all â€œGolly gee willkers!â€ about it.
 

B) The burden of proof is on Arcturus and I donâ€™t think he has it; and if he does have it, I think he has an uphill battle far steeper than believes in this claim expect.  Heâ€™ll have to explain why he didnâ€™t assert this contractual agreement when Dragoneer usurped the throne years ago.  That doesnâ€™t disprove the claim, but it brings enough doubt to really muddy the issue. (View the Q&A again and Fender has a response to this; itâ€™s exactly this playbook.)


----------



## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 27, 2015)

BRN said:


> It's worth raising the token statement that many users of FA don't feel compelled to channel their chi into the shitstorm claiming to speak for everybody's interests, and that those users are artists and consumers alike.
> 
> What would you say to those people to try and rouse them if they don't particularly feel like anything has really happened?




you make a Very Valid point, Many people that are not speaking up, either are in that wait and see phase, or still thinking that People are going to come flocking back and this is all pre hype fear, as the community has shown many times in the past with exodus attempts. The problem is again as it has been stated, that most things in the past were based off hearsay and speculation. This on the other hand is hard evidence. He sold the site, a Corporation now holds the power, People are seeing this and actually thinking about leaving, this time because we have hard facts not a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I think some artists are sincere this time about wanting to get away from FA, because they do not want to answer to corporate group, that have no real interest in the community that we have built.

We as a community now, only have our voice to protest what is happening to our community. And I would encourage people to ask questions and get answers, the mindset of they will be back its all jumping the gun will not serve to help the community in the long run, I do not say that you should just bail out and flee while you can. Instead I say Diversify, spread out reach to multiple communities at the same time, build yourselves a strong foundation, so if this site does become a true sinking ship, you have other sites to keep you going. You do not have to simply abandon ship, but you should start preparing yourself for the Day that FA sinks under the waves of Corporate greed. I am not saying that IMVU will simply change and ruin this site. I am saying that they have to make a profit and they are not going to make that profit with ads, nor will they be able to place google ads on this sight, as the CEO has already claimed they were going to do. 

Regardless they are not going to pump large sums of money into a site and not expect to gain it back somehow. It could mean more payment settings, it could mean AP type passes, it could mean a great deal of things, but when the ship sinks having a network that you can continue to survive off of, is just a really good business practice. So that being said Diversify, gain more exposure and branch out. If this ship sinks, you will be at least somewhat prepared to survive the crash.


----------



## FYIAD (Mar 27, 2015)

BRN said:


> It's worth raising the token statement that many users of FA don't feel compelled to channel their chi into the shitstorm claiming to speak for everybody's interests, and that those users are artists and consumers alike.
> 
> What would you say to those people to try and rouse them if they don't particularly feel like anything has really happened?


 
I speak for no one but myself.

I would not rile people into a frenzy claiming that fire and brimstone are sure to come a-streaming from the heavens any moment now; because no one believes the sky is falling or that the end is neigh.  And they probably believe that isn't so because it isn't so.

Instead, I would say what I have been saying all this last week: 
I encourage folks to branch out, but burn no bridges. Expand your horizons, lest we find one day that our territory is ours no more and you find yourself facing the prospect of starting from nothing with nary a momentâ€™s warning beforehand.

I would urge people to be vigilant and ready, because it is far better to prepare for a likely problem than it is to scurry in a panic whenever things look to be going sideways.  Beyond that, Iâ€™d ask that people do what theyâ€™ve always done: be good to another, and to continue being a community that helps each other out, even if we donâ€™t agree on everything. 

No one believes the crazy guy with wearing the sandwich board proclaiming that today is the end of days.  I believe that something greatly significant did happen, something I donâ€™t trust, but I acknowledge that they donâ€™t feel that way at the moment.  Itâ€™s going to be a good while longer until we know what it all means, and Iâ€™d understand it if they donâ€™t feel like fleeing at the first sign of trouble; and Iâ€™d communicate that I hope to be here to help if I should be right, and that Iâ€™ll be hoping Iâ€™m wrong in the meantime. Thatâ€™s all I can offer.  

In short, Iâ€™m a mix of Boy Scouts and Hitchhikerâ€™s Guide over here: Always Be Prepared and Donâ€™t Panic.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

rjbartrop said:


> My thought is that it's still nice to have a spot you can point people to when they ask about about your art.  I use my DA account mostly for non-furry art, and as a sport to point the "normal" people at.


Well, I would put normal art on there except for one thing, I can't draw worth s**t, much less normal art, so really, 3D is my only true means of making any art at all


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 27, 2015)

there is nothing wrong with that, art is an expression of yourself and anything you make, no matter what you make it with, be it 3D modeling, Drawing, music, etc, is still a work of art and thus worthy of respect, so I say keep making awesome Art.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> there is nothing wrong with that, art is an expression of yourself and anything you make, no matter what you make it with, be it 3D modeling, Drawing, music, etc, is still a work of art and thus worthy of respect, so I say
> keep making awesome Art.



Well, I submit art to DA, but, it almost seems like I'm missing something. Maybe it's due to the fact I'm not actively involved in commenting and favoriting others' artwork pieces, giving feedback, etc. It feels like, no matter what tags or descriptions I use, I don't get enough comments, likes, etc, you know?


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## RTDragon (Mar 27, 2015)

Your not expected to get likes and things on DA since it's quite different considering the contests they hold for art have far different entries considering who wins them.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Your not expected to get likes and things on DA since it's quite different considering the contests they hold for art have far different entries considering who wins them.



Damn....seriously? So, maybe it would be best if I just completely gave up posting anything on there ever again. Got it. Can't win, don't try. That's what I was afraid of, giving up is just easier for me to do since no one would ever like the art I post, so yeah, c'est la vie.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah I know and it very well could be that your not as active over there. I mean I am sure DA has their own community as well and those who are more active in that community are probably getting more of the comments and likes and things. Still do not belittle your talent because you can not draw. 3D is a very amazing form of artistic talent, and I commend you for working and developing it. Do not be put off by the responses in DA, I am sure your works are incredible. I am going to have to look you up now and starting seeing what all you make.


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## shteev (Mar 27, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU isent the enemy >_> the fucking anti-dragoneer nazis and the retards moving to weasyl are the fucking enemy.



i know this post has been torn to pieces but i love this juxtaposition



NoahGryphon said:


> retards





NoahGryphon said:


> IMVU *isent* the enemy



how can you go ahead and attempt to insult someone's intelligence (using a brash term at that) but preface said insult with a hilarious grammatical mistake?


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Damn....seriously? So, maybe it would be best if I just completely gave up posting anything on there ever again. Got it. Can't win, don't try. That's what I was afraid of, giving up is just easier for me to do since no one would ever like the art I post, so yeah, c'est la vie.



That's not what i said.


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## rjbartrop (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Well, I would put normal art on there except for one thing, I can't draw worth s**t, much less normal art, so really, 3D is my only true means of making any art at all



3D still counts.  I do some myself.   It doesn't get nearly the response of the furry cheesecake,  but I have gotten some game work, and some illustration jobs from it,  so you shouldn't get too hung up on the numbers.


----------



## Fawk (Mar 27, 2015)

Can anyone give suggestions of the best way to get people to help me find artists of work posted on IMVU?
Should I make a thread here on the forums? Where should I put such a thread?

I take screencaps of products in-client (since it gives a better image to go off of and can show products that don't have images for the icons) on IMVU and put the product ID number on the image (shown here: http://imgur.com/a/uzY2r). When someone tells me who the artist is, I contact them with the images and a link to a pastebin detailing how to file a DMCA (information provided by the ever-useful Fleshy!)

I can't know every artist, and need help.


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## Volkodav (Mar 27, 2015)

Already found those a few pages back
ill make a big list soon sorry


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## Fawk (Mar 27, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Already found those a few pages back
> ill make a big list soon sorry



Yes, you did! And I sent those artists messages, I got a few replies back already, a couple were very grateful for having it brought to their attention with all the information. 

But I am thinking a thread especially for finding the artists would be more effective than using this discussion thread xD I just don't know where I would put that thread.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 27, 2015)

Artist Discussion?


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## RTDragon (Mar 27, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Artist Discussion?



That was really pointless, And would not really fit in the artist discussions since that's for artwork and critque.

@Volkodav So are you going to post this list up on google docs since it would be much easier to update and might want to password protect it.


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## Volkodav (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah i will do that soon. Possibly tomorrow as im not at my computer


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 27, 2015)

rjbartrop said:


> 3D still counts.  I do some myself.   It doesn't get nearly the response of the furry cheesecake,  but I have gotten some game work, and some illustration jobs from it,  so you shouldn't get too hung up on the numbers.



Then what should I do? I honest to goodness cannot draw anything noteworthy for the life of me, it's bad enough I don't have a scanner to scan artwork with lol.



RTDragon said:


> That's not what i said.



Then what do you suggest for someone who can't draw?


----------



## Featherwing15 (Mar 27, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Then what should I do? I honest to goodness cannot draw anything noteworthy for the life of me, it's bad enough I don't have a scanner to scan artwork with lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what do you suggest for someone who can't draw?



Are you good at creating story universes? If so, I'd say to post literature on dA.  I posted my first story there, and plan on uploading the cyberpunk story I'm working on as I get chapters done... There's always something from photomanips to literature, most of my deviations on dA are photos 

It just seems like dA is the catchall for all types of art to me.


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## rjbartrop (Mar 28, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Then what should I do? I honest to goodness cannot draw anything noteworthy for the life of me, it's bad enough I don't have a scanner to scan artwork with lol.



Why, you do whatever you want, of course.   

If you do 3D stuff, post 3d stuff.  If you want to draw, do worry if it's noteworthy or not.  If you don't have a scanner, there are plenty of places that do.   If you don't want to do any of that, read a book, play games, or do whatever it is you do want tto do.    It's entirely up to do.


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## NoahGryphon (Mar 28, 2015)

At least the panic has died down >_>

and im sorry that i was mean earlier im just under alot of stress lately.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 28, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> That was really pointless, And would not really fit in the artist discussions since that's for artwork and critque.



Wow. Aren't you hostile?


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 28, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Then what do you suggest for someone who can't draw?



Practice make a sketchbook thread in the tutorials & critiques section. Also draw more than just furry/anthro artwork.




NoahGryphon said:


> At least the panic has died down >_>
> 
> and im sorry that i was mean earlier im just under alot of stress lately.



No your not from your previous replies that post was uncalled for as well as your previous post about bombing people. And you wonder why you are being called out for your behavior.



-Sliqq- said:


> Wow. Aren't you hostile?



Remember what i said think before you post and that one word reply is pretty pointless considering you did'nt read that subsection of the creative media thread. You are proving exactly what i am talking about this is a discussion to think. Making one word reply comments does'nt make people really take you seriously. It just proves your really are indifferent and don't care much about the subject here. I would suggest for someone who joined so late in the year on FA look up it's long term history and learn why people are upset about this.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 28, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> At least the panic has died down >_>


I wouldn't call it "died down," exactly. It's more like a traumatized victim having screamed so long as to have no energy to keep going.



> and im sorry that i was mean earlier im just under alot of stress lately.


That's a bang-up excuse, man, right up there with dogs eating homework papers.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 28, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Remember what i said think before you post and that one word reply is pretty pointless considering you did'nt read that subsection of the creative media thread. You are proving exactly what i am talking about this is a discussion to think. Making one word reply comments does'nt make people really take you seriously. It just proves your really are indifferent and don't care much about the subject here. I would suggest for someone who joined so late in the year on FA look up it's long term history and learn why people are upset about this.



I wish I didn't care. 
Just because I don't write massive lines worth of text doesn't mean I don't care about the subject. A lot of the problem with the situation is being discussed by artists, which I am not. I cannot show my showcase my ideas as an artist, because I am *not* an artist. I'll speak as an outsider looking in, not an insider looking infinitely inward. If I was talking like so, I'd be lying to you & everyone in this thread. 

As for the history of the site, I'll look as far as I can into it. Don't expect me to know everything. Jeez.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 28, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> At least the panic has died down >_>
> 
> and im sorry that i was mean earlier im just under alot of stress lately.



Nice excuse, you're only apologizing because you were called out. Good day, my dear White Knight  Maybe when you stop blindly following following him, and blindly defending him as well as sucking up to him, sure.


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## Willow (Mar 28, 2015)

I didn't know people still used IMVU or that it was even relevant anymore


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 28, 2015)

Willow said:


> I didn't know people still used IMVU or that it was even relevant anymore



Most people don't and see it as anathema, no one in their right mind would want to use IMVU for furry art.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 28, 2015)

Willow said:


> I didn't know people still used IMVU or that it was even relevant anymore


Yeah. When I was younger I saw ads of it all the time. Also, I've only met one person who actually used IMVU. All the fun stuff seems to happen on Second Life.


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## FenrirDarkWolf (Mar 28, 2015)

I think the only sorta regular user whose used IMVU other than me is Zahros


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## Willow (Mar 28, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Most people don't and see it as anathema, no one in their right mind would want to use IMVU for furry art.


Or anything else for that matter..



-Sliqq- said:


> Yeah. When I was younger I saw ads of it all the time. Also, I've only met one person who actually used IMVU. All the fun stuff seems to happen on Second Life.


Probably because SL gave its users so much freedom in the game. Admittedly I made an account on IMVU forever but only because a friend and I were bored one day. I only logged in once.


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## RTDragon (Mar 28, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> I wish I didn't care.
> Just because I don't write massive lines worth of text doesn't mean I don't care about the subject. A lot of the problem with the situation is being discussed by artists, which I am not. I cannot show my showcase my ideas as an artist, because I am *not* an artist. I'll speak as an outsider looking in, not an insider looking infinitely inward. If I was talking like so, I'd be lying to you & everyone in this thread.
> 
> As for the history of the site, I'll look as far as I can into it. Don't expect me to know everything. Jeez.



Then why are you posting in this topic then or even in this forums if you don't care?


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## Tchelline (Mar 28, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> I wish I didn't care.
> Just because I don't write massive lines worth of text doesn't mean I don't care about the subject. A lot of the problem with the situation is being discussed by artists, which I am not. I cannot show my showcase my ideas as an artist, because I am *not* an artist. I'll speak as an outsider looking in, not an insider looking infinitely inward. If I was talking like so, I'd be lying to you & everyone in this thread.
> 
> As for the history of the site, I'll look as far as I can into it. Don't expect me to know everything. Jeez.



So, someone is not an artist. Weeeeellll now we know why you don't seem to care very much, after all, if all artists go to hell it doesn't affect you, right?

This is a concise list of things about why Imvu represents an inminent danger to artists:

- Imvu is for children. Concerned parents will force the company to censor our porn, that is 70% of the furry artwork. You remove porn from FA and 70% of the comission sales drop immediately.

- Imvu is not going to make any profit at all from mere Ads. In the past, those weren't enough to even keep the site afloat, hence Dragoneer begged for money all the time. Thus, they are going to do things to obtain money. AND whatever they do, will reduce the * purchase power * of the people who comissions artists.

- Imvu resells their artwork and can make money off it. While that does not rest any coin from artists, it sure makes them immensely angry.


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## Volkodav (Mar 28, 2015)

sorry guys il have something up soon, been busy and on phone the majority of the time so I haven't been able to make a directory yet

I just wanna say 



Tchelline said:


> - Imvu is not going to make any profit at all from mere Ads. In the past, those weren't enough to even keep the site afloat, hence Dragoneer begged for money all the time. Thus, they are going to do things to obtain money. AND whatever they do, will reduce the * purchase power * of the people who comissions artists.



It will be hilarious when IMVU gets an influx of swearing, sexual furries coming to their website who don't read site rules


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## Tchelline (Mar 28, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> sorry guys il have something up soon, been busy and on phone the majority of the time so I haven't been able to make a directory yet
> 
> I just wanna say
> 
> ...



Considering how much furries feel betrayed by Imvu and looking at the comments of the Five journals Fender has uploaded about it, I HIIIIGHLY doubt there will be more than just a very small group of furries left with enough chairity to give Imvu a chance.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 28, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> So, someone is not an artist. Weeeeellll now we know why you don't seem to care very much, after all, if all artists go to hell it doesn't affect you, right?
> 
> This is a concise list of things about why Imvu represents an inminent danger to artists:
> 
> ...



Well the first thing you said, that's just silly. Do you not care about people because they're not the same as you? Do you devalue another person because it doesn't directly affect you? I think I'm being mistaken for a dense asshole who doesn't have any heart for others, and only cares for the welfare of himself in all places & all situations. Doesn't sound so pretty, does it?

I'm not sure if FA is going to have anything censored (because of the General, Mature, & Adult filters). It would be pointless to change anything that's already fixed. As a minor, I'm not allowed to see anything more provocative than what's in general. I don't know how much of the artwork produced is porn & I won't be able to know until 2 years from now. So that's that.

I'd be a bit concerned about purchase power though. That's one thing that I haven't heard or considered throughout this whole thread. I'm just wondering what exact action would cause that to happen. I'm not going to post any ideas because I don't want to give IMVU any. I'd rather the artists move to another site if that happens instead of dealing with that situation head-on. Sometimes losing a bit of cash for a minute can mean everything.


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## RCRuskin (Mar 28, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> I have it in writing that things will not be changing EXCEPT for the better. I'm still in charge of FA.



Going all the way back to the beginning of this: if you are still in charge, how could things possibly be changing for the better?

Also, speaking with my lawyer, I got some good news for the actual owner of FA, bad news for 'Neer and IMVu.


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## Willow (Mar 28, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> - Imvu is for children. Concerned parents will force the company to  censor our porn, that is 70% of the furry artwork. You remove porn from  FA and 70% of the comission sales drop immediately.


IMVU and  FA are still two separate sites and honestly speaking the only way  parents would find out about any porn on the site is if they actually  have an account and kids can't see it anyway :T



> - Imvu is not going to make any profit at all from mere Ads. In  the past, those weren't enough to even keep the site afloat, hence  Dragoneer begged for money all the time. Thus, they are going to do  things to obtain money. AND whatever they do, will reduce the * purchase power * of the people who comissions artists.


Maybe it's just me but I kind of doubt IMVU needs money..



> - Imvu resells their artwork and can make money off it. While  that does not rest any coin from artists, it sure makes them immensely  angry.


Nah I'm pretty sure they still can't do that. Kind of like how Yahoo can't resell art made by Tumblr users even though they own it now.


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## RTDragon (Mar 28, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Well the first thing you said, that's just silly. Do you not care about people because they're not the same as you? Do you devalue another person because it doesn't directly effect you? I think I'm being mistaken for a dense asshole who doesn't have any heart for others, and only cares for the welfare of himself in all places & all situations. Doesn't sound so pretty, does it?
> 
> I'm not sure if FA is going to have anything censored (because of the General, Mature, & Adult filters). It would be pointless to change anything that's already fixed. As a minor, I'm not allowed to see anything more provocative than what's in general. I don't know how much of the artwork produced is porn & I won't be able to know until 2 years from now. So that's that.
> 
> I'd be a bit concerned about purchase power though. That's one thing that I haven't heard or considered throughout this whole thread. I'm just wondering what exact action would cause that to happen. I'm not going to post any ideas because I don't want to give IMVU any. I'd rather the artists move to another site if that happens instead of dealing with that situation head-on. Sometimes losing a bit of cash for a minute can mean everything.



Oh don't be surprised after that PR move from IMVU linking the site and showing the full blown porn basically porn get's a lot of attention a lot more then general art. The fact there are not many sites that cater to adult content. You still don't understand this. And it does'nt help matter how FA merged general and adult into one section which makes things a lot worse then it already is. It was far better off with the old version. And i can see what this can cause as well. It's not really silly Sliqq but it's a real possibility this could happen.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 28, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Oh don't be surprised after that PR move from IMVU linking the site and showing the full blown porn basically porn get's a lot of attention a lot more then general art. The fact there are not many sites that cater to adult content. You still don't understand this. And it does'nt help matter how FA merged general and adult into one section which makes things a lot worse then it already is. It was far better off with the old version. And i can see what this can cause as well.



I didn't hear of IMVU linking FA or showing porn like that. Ain't that something? Uhhh... Don't know what to say after that, but yes I can expect sex to sell, & I guess that's what's being taken advantage of. As much as I want to say "hide your cubs & hide your porn" I don't see that happening any time soon.



RTDragon said:


> t's not really silly Sliqq but it's a real possibility this could happen.



I was referring to this:



Tchelline said:


> So, someone is not an artist. Weeeeellll now we know why you don't seem to care very much, after all, if all artists go to hell it doesn't affect you, right?



I don't know exactly what was trying to be said here, but It didn't feel nice. I'll tell ya' that.


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## RTDragon (Mar 28, 2015)

@Sliqq Go back a few threads a user mentioned this and posted a link to the results of that You might have not paid attention to that subject.

And please grow a thicker skin considering you did insult artists that actually do commissions a few threads ago.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 28, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> @Sliqq Go back a few threads a user mentioned this and posted a link to the results of that You might have not paid attention to that subject.
> 
> And please grow a thicker skin considering you did insult artists that actually do commissions a few threads ago.



Threads? Fuck!

I don't remember ever actively insulting artists. I have no need to & I don't want to. In my opinion, those artists are great & I hope to draw like them some day.

Thicker Skin? This isn't yesterday RT.


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## krystalfox77 (Mar 29, 2015)

Can people cease discussing and arguing about this ad nauseum?


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## Tchelline (Mar 29, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Threads? Fuck!
> 
> I don't remember ever actively insulting artists. I have no need to & I don't want to. In my opinion, those artists are great & I hope to draw like them some day.
> 
> Thicker Skin? This isn't yesterday RT.



Seriously shut up kid and let the adults have a serious discussion.

* You already have stated SO MANY TIMES that you don't care about what happens to others, so yeah we get it, now take your inmaturity and get out *


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

OK Sliqq you want proof of this PR nightmare I will show you the proof right out off IMVUs site

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=531598

FurAffinity.net communty becomes part of the IMVU familyâ€¦

Online furry and anthropormophic art gallery meets 3d artistic furry avatars...if they have not met already! 

We are proud to announce to YOU - especially our furry and furry-loving friends - that earlier this year we made FurAffinity.net community a part of our family. 

This started with IMVU advertising its services to the FA community, which led to further discussions about the obvious overlap among our members. Both IMVU and FA community members love to socialize and connect anonymously with people from around the world with diverse backgrounds. Both communities express their artistic and creative skills in a variety of ways - via their anthromorphic and furry art, photographs, outfits, and scenes and more. So our partnership was the natural and reasonable conclusion to bring these similar and often already connected communities together officially. 

For those of you who donâ€™t know, FA is a community centered around sketching and animations, in which artists are afforded the opportunity to anonymously share their own individual creative talents. Sound vaguely familiar? Yes, it is indeed exactly what you - IMVUâ€™s customers - do as well. 

What does it mean for the IMVU community? The FA site will continue to operate indepently and work toward enhancing the fun and experience of their members with our full support. You will continue to enjoy your IMVU experience - whether you belong to our furry community or not as always. We know many of you participate in both communities, so this just means you are always part of the IMVU family!
_________________
Varsha - Director, Community Experience & User Safety 



There HARD Evidence they did infact link this in General Audience


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

click back to page 38 in this thread and look at the post made by MoonRiverz a IMVU adult that came over to see what site they had bought.

To say the least she was a bit shocked since getting an adult account on FA is as easy as being able to count 18 years. It is not hard to get a full adult account on FA and that is why they may have to make changes to make things stricter. Their Age verification is a long convoluted process as is spelled out by Moonriverz on page 38 its not just a made up story this PR nightmare has already happened and its still posted in their forums.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 29, 2015)

Jesus Christ, people, can we stop with the attacking of people who have different opinions? Also, if you have a claim, back it up with proof. As far as I know this "insult" was just an opinion you disagreed with and was mistakenly assumed that it stemmed from not caring about artists.


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## BRN (Mar 29, 2015)

I don't see a single thing wrong or offensive about Sliqq's position for the entirety of the last page and nearly everyone who responded to him should be ashamed of their etiquette and ludicrous aggrandising.

Pushing aside the cabal who disagree with you doesn't make your positions any stronger. You just look like twats for doing it.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

I am not saying there is anything wrong with what he said, I am just showing him the evidence he wanted to see. he said he never saw a message linking in GA so I am showing it to him the Link is there going right to the forum post and the post is there so he can verify that its in fact a copy paste. then I pointed him back to page 38 of this thread where it shows him the post by MoonRiverz to again verify the evidence.not trying to be rude or disrespectful just giving him the evidence he was asking for.


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## BRN (Mar 29, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> I am not saying there is anything wrong with what he said, I am just showing him the evidence he wanted to see. he said he never saw a message linking in GA so I am showing it to him the Link is there going right to the forum post and the post is there so he can verify that its in fact a copy paste. then I pointed him back to page 38 of this thread where it shows him the post by MoonRiverz to again verify the evidence.not trying to be rude or disrespectful just giving him the evidence he was asking for.


Honestly I'm appreciating you more than most right now. RTDragon has never exactly presented himself well at any time ever in any thread on this forum at all, but the blatant Hydra-head screaming of strawman arguments in the last pages, posts that ignored the forest for the moss, pretending to make a point like it's a popularity contest in a school playground; posters like that aren't going to make IMVU and FA any better.

The folks who make decisions are gonna see the way those people act and avoid any affiliation with them. Meanwhile Sliqq's playing the long game and seeing it ain't that bad.

Kids don't get to see porn unless they say they're over 18 and want to see porn. .

Worst case scenario IMVU pulls the plug on FA and everyone gets the mass exodus that they're looking for, the dramatic doomsayers.

But nah, Sliqq's posts aren't worth credit or attention, are they? The guy doesn't agree with the raging cabal of grunts and goblins bravely cawing their distaste and bashing their sharpened flint rocks onto campfire sticks. Obviously the rational *mature* thing to do is... :?

It's not that I'm surprised, it's just the sheer audacity of claiming maturity while acting like that stuns me into posting my disbelief.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

I think that people who are asking real questions and have legitimate concerns have the right to be upset and protest, but at the same time being rude and disrespectful to others is definitely not the answer here. Being upset and concerned and raising your voice in protest is about all one can do in this situation. but you can protest and speak out in a way that does not make you seem childish and and immature. 

I Would like them to start answering a lot of questions, but at the same time I know that they are only going to give PR half hearted statements. So rather then get all pissed off and lowering my standards at how to talk to others, I simply urge people to start preparing. Diversify and spread themselves out so if this ship does sink they are not taking food out of their family's mouths because they never took the time to spread themselves out and start exposing themselves in other locations. 

I mean lets face it, FA is not going to last forever, nothing really does, nor will IB or any other site. so to be ready for a site to collapse you should be building up a more solid foundation by networking out to multiple locations.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 29, 2015)

Ok, GalaxyBlessed this is what I've found.

"IMVU's content policies (Virtual Goods Rating Policy or VGP) only applies to products submitted to our Shop. Content shared on FurAffinity.net site is not regulated by that policy." 

This came from Varsha herself. That's one less problem to worry about. 

I do not know what they are going to do about the forums though. I think this might be affected, but only if IMVU & FA are too close for comfort. But maybe I should ask another question, if IMVU has been so close for so long why should anything change? Thank you for the links BTW.


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Ok, GalaxyBlessed this is what I've found.
> "IMVU's content policies (Virtual Goods Rating Policy or VGP) only applies to products submitted to our Shop. Content shared on FurAffinity.net site is not regulated by that policy."
> 
> This came from Varsha herself. That's one less problem to worry about.
> ...



I see you did'nt read the rest of the pages of that thread. Man you are totally clueless. And that post was in a GA thread in IMVU which has strict rules.


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

BRN said:


> Honestly I'm appreciating you more than most right now. RTDragon has never exactly presented himself well at any time ever in any thread on this forum at all, but the blatant Hydra-head screaming of strawman arguments in the last pages, posts that ignored the forest for the moss, pretending to make a point like it's a popularity contest in a school playground; posters like that aren't going to make IMVU and FA any better.



That's funny coming from someone who was the cause of permanently banning the general time wasters threads in the general discussion section so you are the one to talk BRN. I do present myself very well though i am blunt and don't need to surgarcoat things unlike you BRN. So do not bring up that argument you know better than that. And i would also suggest you can it with the passive aggressive arguments it shows your smugness even more SIX.


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## shteev (Mar 29, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Jesus Christ, people, can we stop with the attacking of people who have different opinions? Also, if you have a claim, back it up with proof. As far as I know this "insult" was just an opinion you disagreed with and was mistakenly assumed that it stemmed from not caring about artists.



People aren't allowed to have opinions on the internet, duh!!

Seriously the biggest issue with debates and discussions on the internet is that we can all hide away into our accounts and personas, enabling us to be a lot more aggressive and careless when it comes to interacting with others. It suddenly becomes very easy to insult people and talk trash when there are little consequences.


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## Tchelline (Mar 29, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Jesus Christ, people, can we stop with the attacking of people who have different opinions? Also, if you have a claim, back it up with proof. As far as I know this "insult" was just an opinion you disagreed with and was mistakenly assumed that it stemmed from not caring about artists.



Says the one who has most insultd people in this thread.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 29, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> That's funny coming from someone who was the cause of permanently banning the general time wasters threads in the general discussion section so you are the one to talk BRN. I do present myself very well though i am blunt and don't need to surgarcoat things unlike you BRN. So do not bring up that argument you know better than that. And i would also suggest you can it with the passive aggressive arguments it shows your smugness even more SIX.



No RT. You're an asshole. Straight and simple. 

You like to talk about people's past a lot, like you're just stocking up to attack someone. I don't see how anyone can trust you, let alone be a friend with. Your tone doesn't match your cause, & this is shown in every post that I've seen thus far.

Here's a paddle to the face.

Fuck off with your maturity bullshit & "You don't know anything"  mentality. 

Reality check: nobody knows everything & everybody gets pissed off. That includes *you*. *You* are the person I don't want to become.

I'm already prepared for you to hold that against me, as you'd only push my point further. 
It may not be the most civil thing to say, but somebody had to.


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## TheArchiver (Mar 29, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> *Can people cease discussing and arguing about this ad nauseum?*




Since apparently RT, Sliqq, and BRN have forgotten how to read.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 29, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Since apparently RT, Sliqq, and BRN have forgotten how to read.



I've seen it, but i'm not going to ignore RT since he likes to speak with flames like a real dragon.


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## NoahGryphon (Mar 29, 2015)

Hey anti-dragoneer communists, you know how you always say dragoneer would never give power to furries who wanna buy the site? >_> well dont you think he wouldent give power to IMVU either? in the contract he probably made sure that he has 95% of the power. which is good cause dragoneer is awsome.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Ok, GalaxyBlessed this is what I've found.
> 
> "IMVU's content policies (Virtual Goods Rating Policy or VGP) only applies to products submitted to our Shop. Content shared on FurAffinity.net site is not regulated by that policy."
> 
> ...




the problem is, if they were that close in the past, which we can surmise they were not since a lot of adults that never heard of the site till the acquisition, the people would not have been taken by surprise. The fact of the matter is they were blindsided by the whole thing and if you look at MoonRiverz post there on page 38 of this thread she was pissed. Not at The members of FA not thinking that we were all sick and gross, she was mad because the children could easily make an account and have access to some of the worst forms of porn and some of the darker fetishes. Lets Face it here on FA most anything goes art wise save a few restricted things. 

the PR nightmare that was created could start to cost them money, if adults find out they bought a porn site and suddenly IMVU starts getting huge number of complaints. Besides that Because of our lax policy on verification IMVU may try to implement stricter age verification. Since they now have a direct link to FA on their site now. Not only that but what happens When Companies like Walmart and google discover the buy out. Your looking at them loosing a a lot of money if Walmart and other companies that sell their cards pull them off their shelves since they bought a porn site and do not think Walmart won't Nor google for that matter. Google Ads is Very clear they will not allow google ads to be placed on a site that displays pornogrphy. They can ban you and remove all your ads across all sites you own if you do so. FA has already tried google ads in the past, then got banned because of the sites content. 

so this PR stunt made little to no sense, and you can argue that we have a age verification here, but when Age verification only takes the ability to count to 18, its easy for a kid to gain access. So posting this in their GA forum where kids have access to it, we are setting up a serious precedence, that will eventually result in Tough Age restrictions on FA. Now I am not totally against Age Verification, in fact I agree that ours does not really verify anything we are more on the honor system. Kids can gain access and when found to be kids we take punitive action, but I would not want a kid looking at 80% of what is on Fa. 

anyway they state they will not regulate FA but the very fact that they own it now and are going to be held responsible for it, being their name shows on the bottom of the page, means nothing they can say all they want, but in business when companies buy others out they make all kinds of claims and more often then not go back on those claims because they can. In the end they have to make a profit off this purchase, they see dollar signs. When the ads fail to bring in the money they want because AdBlocker for the win, they will turn to other methods to earn that money.

I do not think anyone here believe this buy out was a charitable thing. They have to gain back all they invest plus more of this was a big mistake. Tossing a bunch of money into a site and trying to make it better, is not something a company is going to do, they have to have a plan to profit off it. They will make changes if they start to lose money in the long run, and parents will start to pull their kids off IMVU when word gets out they bought a porn site that has no safeguard other then the honor system.

This is the issue that is concerning, IMVU requires selfies, 20 dollars, and copies of photo ids and ss cards the works. Many people are not going to be willing to give that information. so yeah this stunt will cause backlash, its a matter of when.


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> No RT. You're an asshole. Straight and simple.
> 
> You like to talk about people's past a lot, like you're just stocking up to attack someone. I don't see how anyone can trust you, let alone be a friend with. Your tone doesn't match your cause, & this is shown in every post that I've seen thus far.
> 
> ...



Then why do you keep posting that you don't care if i recall from you profile you seem to be creating a game i would bet you would be mad if someone stole your concept consider how others artist feel when art get's stolen for profit that's what i am calling you out about since you don't seem to respect other artist showing your i don't care attitude. So do me a favor and consider that or shut the hell up Sliqq.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm not going to say anything other than "acknowledged" *for now*.

-Massive Edit (so I don't double post)-



RTDragon said:


> Then why do you keep posting that you don't care if i recall from you profile you seem to be creating a game i would bet you would be mad if someone stole your concept consider how others artist feel when art get's stolen for profit that's what i am calling you out about since you don't seem to respect other artist showing your i don't care attitude. So do me a favor and consider that or shut the hell up Sliqq.



For me, if someone stole anything of mine, I'd be flattered that people liked it, but not so much people selling it for their own cash but I wouldn't get mad over stuff like that. I just deal with it & move on. There's no point in wasting time complaining. 

I respect all artists so you better quote where the hell I disrespected them. Otherwise, dig your own grave with your own words.




RTDragon said:


> You know for someone who is completely dense for a 16 year old who is so obsessed to being a popufur. you certainly have some very poor unrealistic expectations. I can see why your getting so much flack because of what your posting i see your the type that does'nt think before they post."



https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/1349612-Losing-it
https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/1349581-Thanks-a-lot

Remember these? Sure ya do!

Besides, you did the same to BRN, TransformerRobot, & Volk.

Now I'll be silent for Archiver. I don't want to make any bad relationships here, but you're beginning to ramble about yesterday (and now I'm making sure that it bites you in the ass). I don't care about yesterday. I care about today, RT.


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## Blitza (Mar 29, 2015)

Now i did read all that stuff on the IMVU Forum were there OWN Members dosnt trust this Deal and IMVU....

Wonder what will happen with the Time ...


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> I'm not going to say anything other than "acknowledged" *for now*.
> 
> -Massive Edit (so I don't double post)-
> 
> ...



Someone sure is frustrated that my words hurt them. And besides you failed to take Chuchi own advice so don't snap at people who give you advice even if it does'nt sound nice. And that may sound nice for you to be flattered but most artist work so hard for years  to improve to produce artwork. Oh i remember those threads you seen to not know how these forums work. So keep on getting frustrated Sliqq your doing a good job for yourself.

EDIT: If you want to continue arguing please do so in a PM i'll be happy to explain why civilly You will be very surprised as to why.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

I do not think they do not trust us I think they tried to welcome us but some of the furs that went over there were rather rude to people that ha nothing to do with this buy out. We are upset that much is plainly clear but they feel bad for the furs as well, they got a bit more upset as time went on when the furs that went to their forums were getting a bit rude and acting disrespectful. I mean sure we are upset, but there is no need to take it out on all of them there is a select few users that are stealing art for profit, not all of them do. I think that if there is hate for us now, its more on the lines they do not like being treated bad. It would be no different if they came over here and started flinging nothing but insults at us for being furs. 

From what I read they are trying to welcome us into their community, even though a great number of us probably are not really wanting to join IMVU. IMVU The Company are the ones that bought us not the Users, Sure they have some art thieves in their ranks, but they are not happy about that either, in fact in the forum I posted they felt bad and were understanding of the rage that furries were feeling. They really do not hate us, they do not like being insulted though and we have made a bad impression right of the bat. there may be some there that hate furs, but its no different than in any community, There are always bad apples in every bundle. 

I am not saying that IMVU is a group or community I want to belong to, But I am saying that we should not Take out our ire on their Community, but on the company that is giving us half hearted responses that equate to pr  statements. If your going to go over there and talk to them please keep in mind if they came here and spoke in the manner your talking would you be offended as well. I have read through the forum on Fur Affinity and they are trying hard to be accepting and even feel bad that we had our home ripped out from under us. they understand the anger but at the same time they are acting mature and civil but the furs over there that are blowing up and tossing insults and anger around, are not making us as a community look very good at all.


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

Well it does'nt help matters that IMVU annonced this on their twitter which is where i saw the blowup come from as well. The flayrah article does sum it up. https://www.flayrah.com/6017/imvu-buys-fur-affinity-furry-fans-respond


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

I think the article does a pretty good sum up of the situation, and Right now all I can say is if people feel like tis time to flee, then go if not then stay. No matter what choice of action you take prepare yourselves and get ready for the crash. if it never happens no harm, but if it does you do not get slammed with instant loss of income. branch out let folks know where to find you and watch carefully. building a network will be your saving grace in the end.


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 29, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Edited above post. Sorry. He just pisses me off for calling us anti-Dragoneer Nazis.



"Come here punk! I'm gonna take you down" 
(It's just playful banter)


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## Xela-Dasi (Mar 29, 2015)

Just came in to see how things are going... and the fire just became an atomic bomb


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## Roshiyu (Mar 29, 2015)

The problem, actually lies in IMVU's previous actions. It's target audience is younger teens, and they host a more adult section for adults.

When parents found out about this, there was an uproar. IMVU was then forced to create a very strict verification system which includes:

Picture ID.
Social Security #
Cash payment ($20)

Compare that to FA's verification policy? An honor system that merely asks a person not to lie about their birthday?... And we have far more explicit adult content then IMVU will ever allow.
When parents find out about FA, well, they say history repeats itself.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 29, 2015)

this is precisely what I was talking about, when parents discover that the site their kids have been using bought a porn site and it uses little more than the honor system that is when the backlash will start


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 29, 2015)

Remember when this thread was about finding answers and discussing possible changes instead of childish bickering?

Pepperidge Farm remembers...


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## Migoto Da (Mar 29, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Remember when this thread was about finding answers and discussing possible changes instead of childish bickering?
> 
> Pepperidge Farm remembers...


Unfortunately, the Farm got burned down yesterday because a few guys got trigger happy with their flame wars... Sigh.
Yet, we will rebuild. Pepperidge Farm always rebuilds.


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

Pepperidge Farms does'nt taste good to me anyhow but anyhow the damage has been done. and who ideas was it to have a honor system for FA for being honest about being 18 considering due to the laws here in the US.


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## Volkodav (Mar 29, 2015)

Krystal, just go away or argue with Noah through notes.
Y'all keep acting like this and I'm gonna report your posts and get this thread lockedturn this car around


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## shteev (Mar 29, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> The problem, actually lies in IMVU's previous actions. It's target audience is younger teens, and they host a more adult section for adults.
> 
> When parents found out about this, there was an uproar. IMVU was then forced to create a very strict verification system which includes:
> 
> ...



I didn't lie about my age and as such had my ability to view mature content locked until I turned 18. Sending a picture of myself and my photo ID verifying my age wasn't difficult, in itself

waiting a few months for the ticket to be addressed, however, was the grueling part xD


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## RTDragon (Mar 29, 2015)

shteev said:


> I didn't lie about my age and as such had my ability to view mature content locked until I turned 18. Sending a picture of myself and my photo ID verifying my age wasn't difficult, in itself
> 
> waiting a few months for the ticket to be addressed, however, was the grueling part xD



I remember there was something like this when a user was suspended and had to do that let me see if i can find it... Here it is. https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/105826 You can see how that turn out.


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## Tchelline (Mar 30, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> Hey anti-dragoneer communists, you know how you always say dragoneer would never give power to furries who wanna buy the site? >_> well dont you think he wouldent give power to IMVU either? in the contract he probably made sure that he has 95% of the power. which is good cause dragoneer is awsome.



This must be the most stupid comment in the whole thread after the ones made by Neer himself.

You can the anti-dragoneer people communists, but you ignore that Dragoneer has ran this site like a complete dictator, NEVER listening to people, always doing as he pleases like a modern Mussolini. So yeah, those who dislike him are much more people in favor of democracy and human rights, because if any person in this website mirrors communism and dictatorship at it's best is nobody else but Dragoneer himself.


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## Tchelline (Mar 30, 2015)

* Also, please notice how this thread is getting derailed by underages. Imagine what's going to happen to the motherland - FA - when it gets invaded with hordes of underages coming from Imvu. *


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## Fawk (Mar 30, 2015)

I feel the need to let people know that IMVU is not just underage people. Yes, there is a large userbase of younger people, but there is also quite a lot of people who are older and mature.


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## Ryu Deacon (Mar 30, 2015)

Il just put this here not sure if its been discussed but herd there was some playing the lawyer card fuw pages back.

The major topic originally here was about the stolen art on IMVU and how to deal with it in addition to the imminent risk of IMVU farther down the line overriding Dragoneers care-taking(for that is what he is now) and changing the site, well has anyone considered just tackling the problem at the root and getting the site(IMVU) shut down rather then just do with IMVUs ineffective DMCAs. It should be remembered that sites have been shut down before who harbored copyright infringement and have been funded by such... just sayin>>

*Do not be distracted and blind sited away from the propose of this discussion.*


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## Tchelline (Mar 30, 2015)

Fawk said:


> I feel the need to let people know that IMVU is not just underage people. Yes, there is a large userbase of younger people, but there is also quite a lot of people who are older and mature.



Let me put this simple: the furries come here for no other reason than watching erotic art. Artists post here with no other reason than becoming famous eough to sell personalized erotic art. There are a few exceptions, but that's the vast reality of our community. We have NOTHING to do with underages (at least not the people who are not into pedo-stuff, that is illegal anyways).


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 30, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Let me put this simple: *the furries come here for no other reason than watching erotic art.* Artists post here with no other reason than becoming famous eough to sell personalized erotic art. There are a few exceptions, but that's the vast reality of our community. We have NOTHING to do with underages (at least not the people who are not into pedo-stuff, that is illegal anyways).



No, I don't.


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## Ozriel (Mar 30, 2015)

Two things:
Quit derailing the thread and quit it with the insults. Next report/post I see, the user will receive a 1-day vacation from the forums. If it continues, I am closing it. You are free to discuss, criticize tactfully, etc.
If you can't do that and have to resort to shit-flinging tactics, you are gone.


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## Volkodav (Mar 30, 2015)

Ty Ozriel you're a good bf


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## Fawk (Mar 30, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Let me put this simple: the furries come here for no other reason than watching erotic art. Artists post here with no other reason than becoming famous eough to sell personalized erotic art. There are a few exceptions, but that's the vast reality of our community. We have NOTHING to do with underages (at least not the people who are not into pedo-stuff, that is illegal anyways).



That statement is untrue.
Firstly, if FA was specifically for erotic art, there would not be a SFW option on the site.
Secondly, there are plenty of artists on FA who will not even draw NSFW art, I even watch a quite a few of them.

Please do not assert your reasons for using a site onto everyone.


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## GalaxyBlessed (Mar 30, 2015)

I understand that FA has some SFW but lets face it FA is a porn site It is labeled as such by paypal, and they even ban your account and the artists if you so much as mention Fur Affinity. Yes this site hosts some clean artwork and artists that post clean artwork, But the Majority of this site is pornographic. I know there are SFW here but they are the vast minority. FA is a Pornographic site and is labeled as such by google and by Paypal. children really have no business here because FA has the most laxed Verification based solely on the honor system. Any child can count to 18 and lie about their age to gain access and in fact that sort of thing happens all the time. 

I would not in all honesty want a child to view 80% of the content on this site. that being said, This site does for most intents and purposes sell and post erotic art. The statement is not entirely true but in all honesty is closer to the truth then not. FA is for all intents and purposes a Site of pornogrphic art, and has some of the darkest fetishes known, save for a few banned types of fetishes. Children really do not need to be exposed to what all is seen here. I know IMVU has some adults as well as kids, but the main demographic there is teens. Yes there are some great content creators and adults as well.

I have been over to the IMVU forums and watched their thread on the FA purchase, even IMVU members are shocked by this and rather upset that they posted in GA area a link to what they would consider a pornographic site. I am not one that Thinks IMVU is full of thieves, there are some thieves there, but not everyone is a thief. Every community has its bad apples, but I have to agree that FA is not a site designed for kids, nor would I want to find a child here. Sure they slip in sometimes and if they are wise never say a word about it. but the truth is IMVU's age verification is Super strict, and we do not really want to see them try to enforce us to go through that kind of hoops here paywalls and locks which they are famous for, would kill this site. 

FA is Mainly For Erotic Pornographic art there are some that are not but the MAIN Demographic of FA is Pornogrphic.


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## Verin Asper (Mar 30, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That statement is untrue.
> Firstly, if FA was specifically for erotic art, there would not be a SFW option on the site.
> Secondly, there are plenty of artists on FA who will not even draw NSFW art, I even watch a quite a few of them.
> 
> Please do not assert your reasons for using a site onto everyone.


this site was born due to another site banned porn...
theres no real way past that no matter what
the only reason the SFW setting came about (after several years without it) is due to folks wanting to visit this site while out in public but no real way to do so...thats ALSO why FA started to get a bit more on icons too as in the past they didnt care...


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 30, 2015)

...you do know a majority of the art is rated "General", don't you?

There are many people on here for stuff other than porn. I'm not gonna argue about how the site came about, sure it was from the downfall of Sheezyart, but at the same time FA is not strictly a porn site, and I think it was mentioned earlier that PayPal does NOT label FA as a porn site, nor do they actually ban people for mentioning it.

Ah, here's the quote:



Mizuhiro Neko said:


> That PayPal statement is a rumor proven false. They have publicly said that they don't consider is a porn site and don't ban people for buying and selling FA art unless it is porn. The cases where people were banned we're things like someone putting gay porn as the message as a joke and they took it seriously. Or actually selling porn.


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## Croconaw (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> ...you do know a majority of the art is rated "General", don't you?



Search any character, species or show, and I assure you, the images that will have the highest view and favorite count will always be the porn of it.

edit:

Just for fun, search "Digimon" with popularity being the sort function. That's PAGES of nothing BUT porn top favs/views before you hit a clean image that isn't just a prelude to a narse sex comic.

Let's face it: FA's main attraction is the porn with a side of community


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## Gryphoneer (Mar 30, 2015)

For the sake of the discussion it may be advisable to put a moratorium on replying to Pheagle and Noah. The former's tactic had been early on to suppress dissent by spreading FUD a lÃ¡ "guyz GUUUYYYYZZZ if you say too many mean words (aka rock the boat too much) they will lock the thread!", but since that failed they shifted to actively flaming in order to provide an excuse for locking the thread to the loyalist mods.

Don't let their scheme succeed.


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## Croconaw (Mar 30, 2015)

Tbh, the pieces are already set in motion. Answers won't be provided (well, a good chunk of the questions asked here will go without response) and things will not shift gears from what was originally intended.


All we can do now is sit back and watch things unfold for better or for worse.


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## FoxWolfie (Mar 30, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> I understand that FA has some SFW but lets face it FA is a porn site It is labeled as such by paypal, and they even ban your account and the artists if you so much as mention Fur Affinity.



That is simply not true.  I've bought many commissions from artists on FA, and the payment message I use when paying through PayPal is, "Here is payment from FoxWolfie, for the art we discussed on Fur Affinity."  I also talked on the phone with PayPal about a failed transaction between me and an artist, and they had zero issues with Fur Affinity.  I wasn't buying porn though.  PayPal would be utterly stupid to block anything with FA's name on it, since most of it is not porn.  I've been on FA for over eight years, and never bought porn, let alone sexual themed art.  I know that PayPal has issues with porn transactions, and I know people who have had their accounts frozen because they left comments on their PayPal like, "I can't wait to see my character taking some huge cock!"  Gee, maybe they had their account frozen for being stupid enough call attention to their porn - not because they use FA.

You are also just plain wrong in saying that most artists use this as a porn site.  The actual submission statistics completely disagree with that statement.  The most recent submission stats I found from 2014-04-24, show:

General -  53.78% (7,149,922)
 Mature -   7.56% (1,005,166)
  Adult -   8.90% (1,182,577)
Deleted -  29.76% (3,955,935)
------------------------------
  Total - 100% (13,293,600)

The majority of the submitted art here is General by far. It is more than three times the amount of the Mature and Adult submissions combined.  Even if every single deleted submission was adult, which it surely wasn't, the General art would still be in the majority here. The deleted stuff was probably of all types, due to artists drama-purging entire galleries and stuff like that.  So where's this 80 percent porn content you speak of?  Yak posts the stats about once every year or so.

I will admit that an Adult submission probably gets up to double the views that a similar quality General submission gets.  I've somewhat confirmed that by looking at the view and fave counts on submissions where an artist makes multiple versions of the same art - both Adult and General. Their Adult versions usually get 50 to 100 percent more faves and views than their General counterparts.  Even assuming double the views, General still outnumbers views of Adult and Mature combined.  This is clearly not a porn site.  I don't appreciate being grouped under your porn umbrella.  Most of my best friends here are not here to see porn either.  Some are, and that doesn't bother me at all, but even they don't call FA a porn site.  It's an art site, and porn just happens to be one of the many things that is allowed - and it's very far from being in the majority. It's no different than an art museum, where you will sometimes see porn exhibits, and those porn exhibits usually bring in lots of people, but they still aren't considered porn museums. People still think of them as art museums.  That's basically what FA is. Some of us come to see the porn exhibits, and others come for all the other stuff.


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## RCRuskin (Mar 30, 2015)

NoahGryphon said:


> Hey anti-dragoneer communists, you know how you always say dragoneer would never give power to furries who wanna buy the site? >_> well dont you think he wouldent give power to IMVU either? in the contract he probably made sure that he has 95% of the power. which is good cause dragoneer is awsome.



"probably"?  Well, it is an already established fact that he would not sell the site to any furries.  It is equally an established fact that he did not have clear title to the site, so this sale is null and void.


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## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 30, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Then why do you keep posting that you don't care if i recall from you profile you seem to be creating a game i would bet you would be mad if someone stole your concept consider how others artist feel when art get's stolen for profit that's what i am calling you out about since you don't seem to respect other artist showing your i don't care attitude. So do me a favor and consider that or shut the hell up Sliqq.



Look, you two should not be attacking each other. I know Sliqq is wrong for calling you an asshole and all, but as I've been reading this thread, you and a couple others started this by replying to a post in which he specifically said he DOES care treating it like you didn't read it at all and saying he doesn't care. And you're still saying he said he doesn't care when he specifically said he does. That doesn't help anyone.


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## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 30, 2015)

GalaxyBlessed said:


> I understand that FA has some SFW but lets face it FA is a porn site It is labeled as such by paypal, and they even ban your account and the artists if you so much as mention Fur Affinity. Yes this site hosts some clean artwork and artists that post clean artwork, But the Majority of this site is pornographic. I know there are SFW here but they are the vast minority. FA is a Pornographic site and is labeled as such by google and by Paypal. children really have no business here because FA has the most laxed Verification based solely on the honor system. Any child can count to 18 and lie about their age to gain access and in fact that sort of thing happens all the time.
> 
> I would not in all honesty want a child to view 80% of the content on this site. that being said, This site does for most intents and purposes sell and post erotic art. The statement is not entirely true but in all honesty is closer to the truth then not. FA is for all intents and purposes a Site of pornogrphic art, and has some of the darkest fetishes known, save for a few banned types of fetishes. Children really do not need to be exposed to what all is seen here. I know IMVU has some adults as well as kids, but the main demographic there is teens. Yes there are some great content creators and adults as well.
> 
> ...



That has been proven false by PayPal. They have publicly stated that they do not consider us a porn site and do not ban people for mentioning FA.


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## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> ...you do know a majority of the art is rated "General", don't you?
> 
> There are many people on here for stuff other than porn. I'm not gonna argue about how the site came about, sure it was from the downfall of Sheezyart, but at the same time FA is not strictly a porn site, and I think it was mentioned earlier that PayPal does NOT label FA as a porn site, nor do they actually ban people for mentioning it.
> 
> Ah, here's the quote:



Well quoted. And it looks like I missed an autocorrect error when I posted it.



RCRuskin said:


> "probably"?  Well, it is an already established fact that he would not sell the site to any furries.  It is equally an established fact that he did not have clear title to the site, so this sale is null and void.



Has this even been proven yet?


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## Volkodav (Mar 30, 2015)

I'll be a bit busy today but I think I'll start on the doc today
Layout will be:
- Link to image screencap
- Artist name
- IMVU ID #
- Original source ID #

I know it's not the best proof of theft according to IMVU but it's something :/ At least if there's the ID, they can search it up themselves if it's reported?


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## RTDragon (Mar 30, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> That has been proven false by PayPal. They have publicly stated that they do not consider us a porn site and do not ban people for mentioning FA.



Even so let's face it the majority of what get's attention on FA is often porn and fetish work. Which from the eyes of most FA is a porn site. FA would not be able to use ads from Google because of it. And i know this considering i've been paying close attention over the years on what get's popular on FA. Even if general is the majority there are not that many art sites that cater to G rated artwork. And if i recall FA lost their paypal access due to cub porn which was on FA before the ban on it.


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## Willow (Mar 30, 2015)

People in this thread act like underage people are some new concept or like FA doesn't have a nifty filter that blocks porn....


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## -Sliqq- (Mar 30, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> Look, you two should not be attacking each other. I know Sliqq is wrong for calling you an asshole and all, but as I've been reading this thread, you and a couple others started this by replying to a post in which he specifically said he DOES care treating it like you didn't read it at all and saying he doesn't care. And you're still saying he said he doesn't care when he specifically said he does. That doesn't help anyone.



It's over now. No more discussion of it except between me and him. I'll probably PM him by tonight. There's no need to end on a sour note.

I will here apologize about me calling him an asshole though, I just sorta *snapped* there & directed all my hate & anger towards him. My bad.

 It's time to move forward, just like a Toyota


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## Accountability (Mar 30, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> The problem, actually lies in IMVU's previous actions. It's target audience is younger teens, and they host a more adult section for adults.
> 
> When parents found out about this, there was an uproar. IMVU was then forced to create a very strict verification system which includes:
> 
> ...



Basically this. I will not be surprised the day they announce that everyone is age locked until they send in some documentation proving otherwise and a little _sumpin' sumpin'_ for the trouble.

And it might not be parents who cause it, just concerned investors worried about a potential lawsuit. 



NoahGryphon said:


> Hey anti-dragoneer communists, you know how you always say dragoneer would never give power to furries who wanna buy the site? >_> well dont you think he wouldent give power to IMVU either? in the contract he probably made sure that he has 95% of the power. which is good cause dragoneer is awsome.



And pigs might fly out of my ass. IMVU owns the site. That's a fact. When you own something, you can do with it what you please. They have 100% of the power and are allowing Dragoneer to run it. They can take it back whenever they feel like it, and don't think for a minute he's in some sort of iron-clad contract where they can't get rid of him.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> ...you do know a majority of the art is rated "General", don't you?



False. Official statistics made in 2013 point out that 70% of the total submissions in FA were either mature or adult.


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## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 30, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> False. Official statistics made in 2013 point out that 70% of the total submissions in FA were either mature or adult.



I'd like to see your "Official statistics", as the statistics linked earlier counter your argument quite effectively.


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## RCRuskin (Mar 30, 2015)

Accountability said:


> IMVU owns the site. That's a fact. When you own something, you can do with it what you please. They have 100% of the power and are allowing Dragoneer to run it. They can take it back whenever they feel like it, and don't think for a minute he's in some sort of iron-clad contract where they can't get rid of him.



In actual, legal fact, IMVu does not yet own the site.

Dragoneer did not obtain clear title to the site when he bought it; did not seek to obtain it, and then 'sold' an unclear title.

Until this goes through the courts, there is no merger.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 30, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Search any character, species or show, and I assure you, the images that will have the highest view and favorite count will always be the porn of it.



Big deal, that doesn't change the fact that "General" is the most-submitted category. You don't go to a grocery store and claim that they're a "milk store" if milk sells 300% more than anything else in the store.



Gryphoneer said:


> For the sake of the discussion it may be advisable to put a moratorium on replying to Pheagle and Noah. The former's tactic had been early on to suppress dissent by spreading FUD a lÃ¡ "guyz GUUUYYYYZZZ if you say too many mean words (aka rock the boat too much) they will lock the thread!", but since that failed they shifted to actively flaming in order to provide an excuse for locking the thread to the loyalist mods.
> 
> Don't let their scheme succeed.



Um, no. I'm not trying to "supress dissent" nor did I really make a huge deal out of saying "too many mean words." Though I really should have done more of the latter because there's no reason to act like that. You can express your opinion without being bitchy about it.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Big deal, that doesn't change the fact that "General" is the most-submitted category. You don't go to a grocery store and claim that they're a "milk store" if milk sells 300% more than anything else in the store.



They sold mints at the coffee shop I used to work at but that didn't not make it a coffee shop. XD

Also, everyone and their mom knows FA's most looked at stuff is porn. The most popular artists draw porn. The most successful artists draw porn. Most Fav galleries include porn. 

FA's main draw is porn~


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 30, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> They sold mints at the coffee shop I used to work at but that didn't not make it a coffee shop. XD
> 
> Also, everyone and their mom knows FA's most looked at stuff is porn. The most popular artists draw porn. The most successful artists draw porn. Most Fav galleries include porn.
> 
> FA's main draw is porn~



Yes, exactly. Just because it's the "main draw" (or that's how it appears to you AFAIK) doesn't make FA a porn site.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Yes, exactly. Just because it's the "main draw" (or that's how it appears to you AFAIK) doesn't make FA a porn site.



Just like E621! :3


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## RTDragon (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Yes, exactly. Just because it's the "main draw" (or that's how it appears to you AFAIK) doesn't make FA a porn site.



Actually considering that the majority of what is sold is porn and of fetish content as well as YCH of said content and often general art is ignored plus the fact that the majority of artist who draw general art can't get commissions unless they either do porn or fetish art. And the fact that people have gotten their paypal account shut down for even mentioning the site or porn says quite a lot about what the majority of furries pay attention to. And the fact not just FA but Sofurry and Inkbunny.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 30, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Actually considering that the majority of what is sold is porn and of fetish content as well as YCH of said content and often general art is ignored plus the fact that the majority of artist who draw general art can't get commissions unless they either do porn or fetish art. And the fact that people have gotten their paypal account shut down for even mentioning the site or *porn *says quite a lot about what the majority of furries pay attention to. And the fact not just FA but Sofurry and Inkbunny.



Porn, they mentioned porn. Mentioning the site alone doesn't get your account suspended, and that has been mentioned SEVERAL times in this thread.


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## Volkodav (Mar 30, 2015)

Whether or not FA qualifies as a "porn site" doesn't matter. If some kid's mom checks out FA to see what it's about and she gets walls upon walls of porn thumbnails, she's probably going to complain.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 30, 2015)

Also, last time I was on DA they didn't allow explicit sexual content/fetish stuff. Just tasteful nudes and stuff. On FA, you'll see dogs shitting on cats while they orgasm. 

That's pretty hardcore for a general art site.


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## RTDragon (Mar 30, 2015)

And let's not forget that there is scat, watersports, beastiality, explict violence/sex, and all the trimmings. If you name it you can find it on FA.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Mar 30, 2015)

Weasyl has a lot of cool art that isn't nasty like this  :3


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 30, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> And let's not forget that there is scat, watersports, beastiality, explict violence/sex, and all the trimmings. *If you name it you can find it on FA.*



Would that make it the Wal-mart of furry art websites?


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 30, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Would that make it the Wal-mart of furry art websites?



Yes since a lot of the extreme hardcore fetishes can be often found applied to furries. You will never find the hardcore stuff on DA without getting reported quickly.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 30, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Actually considering that the majority of what is sold is porn and of fetish content as well as YCH of said content and often general art is ignored plus the fact that the majority of artist who draw general art can't get commissions unless they either do porn or fetish art. And the fact that people have gotten their paypal account shut down for even mentioning the site or porn says quite a lot about what the majority of furries pay attention to. And the fact not just FA but Sofurry and Inkbunny.



We can't just call it an art site that happens to have a lot of porn? I mean, FA isn't dedicated to porn. There may be a notable amount of fetish art & a lot of furs focus their mice on porn (or porn-like) content, but that shouldn't make it considered a porn site. Besides, I can't get premium service until I'm 18 lol.


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 30, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> We can't just call it an art site that happens to have a lot of porn? I mean, FA isn't dedicated to porn. There may be a notable amount of fetish art & a lot of furs focus their mice on porn (or porn-like) content, but that shouldn't make it considered a porn site. Besides, I can't get premium service until I'm 18 lol.



Sadly what Verin Asper said this site was created after the ban on adult content in sheezy and. Even though the site also has a SFW button there's the issues with the NSFW icons that are popping up still despite the rules. So those can't be blocked out unlike the adult content.




Verin Asper said:


> this site was born due to another site banned porn...
> theres no real way past that no matter what
> the only reason the SFW setting came about (after several years without it) is due to folks wanting to visit this site while out in public but no real way to do so...thats ALSO why FA started to get a bit more on icons too as in the past they didnt care...



If they think they are going to be mad at the adult content just wait till the profile and NSFW avatars to show up.


----------



## Fawk (Mar 30, 2015)

IMVU allows people to be naked and wear BDSM outfits. So it's an adult site by the idea of "if it exists, that's what it's for"


----------



## Gryphoneer (Mar 31, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Yes, exactly. Just because it's the "main draw" (or that's how it appears to you AFAIK) doesn't make FA a porn site.



And guys, _just because_ someone is a notorious black hat hacker _doesn't mean _rabble rabble fart. Don't you ever learn, Pheagle?

Anyhoo, there's single images and comic strips of explicit sexual content on FA. That alone makes it a porn site per the major advertising agencies' standards. Point two, FA is used as a platform for the commercialization of explicit sexual content, both direct sales and commissioning. That makes it a porn site by any Chamber of Commerce's standards.


----------



## Accountability (Mar 31, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> In actual, legal fact, IMVu does not yet own the site.
> 
> Dragoneer did not obtain clear title to the site when he bought it; did not seek to obtain it, and then 'sold' an unclear title.
> 
> Until this goes through the courts, there is no merger.



No. FA is owned by IMVU until someone can provide some sort of actual tangible evidence that they do not. Tweets are not proof. Sorry.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 31, 2015)

For the people saying there are more General submissions than Mature and  Adult, this is true.

But I'm pretty certain the views and favourites of the mature and adult categories will massively outnumber those on General. i actualy did an experiment on this years ago, when thumbnails worked. Two thumbnails posted at the same time, one said SFW and the other NSFW. The NSFW one got 3 times the views.

It's the same principal as going somewhere like Pornhub and uploading millions of pictures of cats sleeping on radiators. Even if the safe content outweighs the porn, it'll still be the porn that gets the most attention.


----------



## RCRuskin (Mar 31, 2015)

Accountability said:


> No. FA is owned by IMVU until someone can provide some sort of actual tangible evidence that they do not. Tweets are not proof. Sorry.



No.  Dragoneer did not provide clear title when he 'sold' that which he did not own.  IMVu's accountants and lawyers had best prepare to unmerge the non-existent merger.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 31, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> In actual, legal fact, IMVu does not yet own the site.
> 
> Dragoneer did not obtain clear title to the site when he bought it; did not seek to obtain it, and then 'sold' an unclear title.
> 
> Until this goes through the courts, there is no merger.



Can you cite your source on this claim? I'm curious about this and how you knew this.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 31, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Actually considering that the majority of what is sold is porn and of fetish content as well as YCH of said content and often general art is ignored plus the fact that the majority of artist who draw general art can't get commissions unless they either do porn or fetish art. And the fact that people have gotten their paypal account shut down for even mentioning the site or porn says quite a lot about what the majority of furries pay attention to. And the fact not just FA but Sofurry and Inkbunny.



Again, no one has gotten banned from PayPal for mentioning FA. Mentioning porn, yes, mentioning FA, no.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Mar 31, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> And let's not forget that there is scat, watersports, beastiality, explict violence/sex, and all the trimmings. If you name it you can find it on FA.



I can name a few things you can't find on FA. Stuff that is not allowed.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 31, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> I can name a few things you can't find on FA. Stuff that is not allowed.



*slow clap*




Gryphoneer said:


> And guys,





Gryphoneer said:


> _just because_ someone is a notorious black hat hacker _doesn't mean _rabble rabble fart. Don't you ever learn, Pheagle?
> 
> Anyhoo, there's single images and comic strips of explicit sexual content on FA. That alone makes it a porn site per the major advertising agencies' standards. Point two, FA is used as a platform for the commercialization of explicit sexual content, both direct sales and commissioning. That makes it a porn site by any Chamber of Commerce's standards.




I've learned that you're very narrow-minded, that's what I've learned. 

FA hosts porn, I'm well aware of that. Users on FA sell porn. If there wasn't such a majority of of General submissions on the site, I might agree with you, but that isn't the case. Let's try another analogy, perhaps it'll sink in.

For example, let's say there's a local video store you frequent to rent movies. They have your normal movies rated G, PG, PG-13, etc. but then they have a sectioned off area where they rent out adult movies, pornos, etc. That doesn't mean this particular video store is an adult video store, it just caters to a wider audience.


----------



## Smelge (Mar 31, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> For example, let's say there's a local video store you frequent to rent movies. They have your normal movies rated G, PG, PG-13, etc. but then they have a sectioned off area where they rent out adult movies, pornos, etc. That doesn't mean this particular video store is an adult video store, it just caters to a wider audience.



Except everyone goes straight into the backroom without paying attention to the other videos. It ndoesn't matter what the place is stocked with if the majority go there for the one thing.


----------



## BRN (Mar 31, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Except everyone goes straight into the backroom without paying attention to the other videos. It ndoesn't matter what the place is stocked with if the majority go there for the one thing.



Or if everyone buys a Big Mac and ignores the other burgers,

or if everyone orders pepperoni and ignores the other toppings

or if everyone chooses 'red' and eschews the other colours


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 31, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Except everyone goes straight into the backroom without paying attention to the other videos. It ndoesn't matter what the place is stocked with if the majority go there for the one thing.



Doesn't matter what the people are there for, it matters what services the business offers. I'll give you some credit, it may be know for certain things, but you cannot ignore the rest, and as a whole you can't say that movie rental place is an adult movie store, just as much as you can't simply say FA is a porn site.



BRN said:


> or if everyone chooses 'red' and eschews the other colours



I'm guilty of this. Go red!


----------



## rjbartrop (Mar 31, 2015)

Something that seems to have gotten overlooked in all the discussion is the fact that IMVU thought FA was worth buying in the first place. Is this the start of a trend like what happened with science fiction fandom 50-60 years ago, where furry fandom is seen as a market worth courting?


----------



## Verin Asper (Mar 31, 2015)

Smelge said:


> Except everyone goes straight into the backroom without paying attention to the other videos. It ndoesn't matter what the place is stocked with if the majority go there for the one thing.


that doesnt really work
if the place is known for having rather kinky porns in the back but also a wide range of general stuff....while people may be coming in to see the porn they still browse the general stuff.

Again its mostly on "Sex sells" just for FA's case...Furry is considered a fetish and people have yet to learn "Not all Fetishes are sexual"(like those furries who are into sneezing...I havent seen their ads in some time though...I hope they are alright)


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 31, 2015)

Either that or FA really hasn't done much with the artist ads considering there's a lot of complaining because of it.


----------



## Tchelline (Mar 31, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> And guys, _just because_ someone is a notorious black hat hacker _doesn't mean _rabble rabble fart. Don't you ever learn, Pheagle?
> 
> Anyhoo, there's single images and comic strips of explicit sexual content on FA. That alone makes it a porn site per the major advertising agencies' standards. Point two, FA is used as a platform for the commercialization of explicit sexual content, both direct sales and commissioning. That makes it a porn site by any Chamber of Commerce's standards.



This, so much this.

Also, vore counts as porn?


----------



## RTDragon (Mar 31, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, so much this.
> 
> Also, vore counts as porn?



Vore actually counts as a fetish how ever there are a few types of vore that count as sexual content cock and unbirthing.


----------



## Roshiyu (Mar 31, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, so much this.
> 
> Also, vore counts as porn?



If there's aroused genitalia involved, then I'd say yes... Not my thing, but people seem to like it.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Mar 31, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, so much this.
> 
> Also, vore counts as porn?



Look, you can't consider one part of a site as the whole site, no matter how popular it is.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Mar 31, 2015)

It's bad enough IMVU owns it without mods wrongfully removing the content of users without warning or their consent just because of some nonexistent or arbitrary rule. I just caught wind of a member, who had been on the site for seven years, had her gallery remove because it used "copyrighted pictures" or "plagiarism". Either way, the mods were in the wrong and really need to get their butts in gear to actually run this place better, and maybe actually warn people if their gallery violates anything. Just a suggestion, you know, instead of the mods acting like hit and run drivers.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Mar 31, 2015)

Ok I signed up for IMVU( I wanted to see if it was a better alternative to SL)
Knowing that my computer has the processing power of a brick & a potato combined, it's very quick & very accessible (unlike SL whereas any user created content can completely fuck you over). It seems very possible that they'll be able to make FA run faster, but it really depends on the actions they decide to take with the mainsite.


----------



## Calemeyr (Apr 1, 2015)

I learned that supposedly IMVU doesn't even let you walk around like SL does? Is this true? It really is a glorified yahoo answers chatroom then.


----------



## FenrirDarkWolf (Apr 1, 2015)

There's like, places you can click on and your model will appear there. Like, it will teleport there. It's not like the Sims where it makes you WALK places :V


----------



## Gryphoneer (Apr 1, 2015)

RCRuskin said:


> No.  Dragoneer did not provide clear title when he 'sold' that which he did not own.  IMVu's accountants and lawyers had best prepare to unmerge the non-existent merger.



IMVU, for all its shortcomings, is a legit business. They have to answer to their owners (what was it again, BestBuy's board of directors?). There wouldn't have been a merger if Piche had been unable to procure final and absolute documentation, IMVU's legal department reviews that kind of stuff as per SOP. Ferrox LLC claimed ownership over FA's assets, codebase and all, for years undisputed by Arcturus, a fact that doesn't exactly lend credence to his assertion. Be it as it may, the burden of proof rests on _his _shoulders, not IMVU's, so he would need to hire a lawyer to contest Piche's papers. Which he probably would've already done if he had a watertight case...



PheagleAdler said:


> I've learned that you're very narrow-minded, that's what I've learned.








> Let's try another analogy, perhaps it'll sink in.



Business law doesn't deal in analogies, only in prevailing legal norms. Of which there exist different ones for both video stores and websites.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Apr 1, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Doesn't matter what the people are there for, it matters what services the business offers. I'll give you some credit, it may be know for certain things, but you cannot ignore the rest, and as a whole you can't say that movie rental place is an adult movie store, just as much as you can't simply say FA is a porn site.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guilty of this. Go red!



Green all the way!


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Apr 1, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, so much this.
> 
> Also, vore counts as porn?



I don't think of vore as porn unless there is porn mixed in with it as there sometimes is. I'd mark it as general unless there was a good reason to mark it as mature or adult.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Apr 1, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> It's bad enough IMVU owns it without mods wrongfully removing the content of users without warning or their consent just because of some nonexistent or arbitrary rule. I just caught wind of a member, who had been on the site for seven years, had her gallery remove because it used "copyrighted pictures" or "plagiarism". Either way, the mods were in the wrong and really need to get their butts in gear to actually run this place better, and maybe actually warn people if their gallery violates anything. Just a suggestion, you know, instead of the mods acting like hit and run drivers.



... Copyright infringement and plagiarism are bad no matter how long you've been a member... Why were the nods wrong for doing their job?


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 1, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Business law doesn't deal in analogies, only in prevailing legal norms. Of which there exist different ones for both video stores and websites.



Do you have proof that business law declares this a porn site? Is that a legal norm to call a site with over half of its submissions not porn to be called a porn site?


----------



## krystalfox77 (Apr 1, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> ... Copyright infringement and plagiarism are bad no matter how long you've been a member... Why were the nods wrong for doing their job?


That's just the thing though, no one really knows for sure how it actually happened, that's just a rumor spreading around, the backgrounds actually were never stolen, that's just a lame-ass excuse that was used. The mods didn't do the right thing and enver even warned her, they just removed the content without pulling her aside or without giving her time to remove the "offending/stolen" backgrounds in her pictures herself. That sounds like pretty shitty management to me, none of her pics even violated the AUP, yet, they used it as a reason, supposedly.  That's why I used quotes, no one even knows what the real reason for the removal, but nothing more than an abuse of authority, and I asked Dragoneer on here the other day about it, why his mods are so power hungry, and not a response was given. Shocker.

Hate to say it, but mods aren't infallible.


----------



## Naesaki (Apr 1, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> and I asked Dragoneer on here the other day about it, why his mods are so power hungry, and not a response was given. Shocker.
> 
> Hate to say it, but mods aren't infallible.



Its true, no one is infallible, but you know just blatantly accusing people of being power hungry, that's always going to make them so delighted to respond to you. Â¬__Â¬


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Apr 1, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> That's just the thing though, no one really knows for sure how it actually happened, that's just a rumor spreading around, the backgrounds actually were never stolen, that's just a lame-ass excuse that was used. The mods didn't do the right thing and enver even warned her, they just removed the content without pulling her aside or without giving her time to remove the "offending/stolen" backgrounds in her pictures herself. That sounds like pretty shitty management to me, none of her pics even violated the AUP, yet, they used it as a reason, supposedly.  That's why I used quotes, no one even knows what the real reason for the removal, but nothing more than an abuse of authority, and I asked Dragoneer on here the other day about it, why his mods are so power hungry, and not a response was given. Shocker.
> 
> Hate to say it, but mods aren't infallible.



They don't have to warn you that they're taking something down. They probably got a complaint. Just ask them why they took it down and say you can prove your art wasn't infringing on anything. They'll probably work with you. I had something taken down once. I replied to the PM, and Sciggles explained that she didn't want to take it down because it has been up for so long, but someone had filed a complaint that the picture was blurry. I didn't think it was, she didn't think it was, but rules are rules, so I asked her to pose with Dragoneer again for a replacement picture, and she was happy to do so.


----------



## TheArchiver (Apr 1, 2015)

Still a bit humorous Piche feels that taking up a service issue with one's manager is a threat. I suppose we can expect bans if more people "threaten" to divulge FA's problems to the management of its new owner.


----------



## Victor-933 (Apr 1, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> They don't have to warn you that they're taking something down. They probably got a complaint. Just ask them why they took it down and say you can prove your art wasn't infringing on anything. They'll probably work with you. I had something taken down once. I replied to the PM, and Sciggles explained that she didn't want to take it down because it has been up for so long, but someone had filed a complaint that the picture was blurry. I didn't think it was, she didn't think it was, but rules are rules, so I asked her to pose with Dragoneer again for a replacement picture, and she was happy to do so.



I got some stuff nuked early on because of a bit of confusion regarding AUP. I had posted screenshots of levels I made for Half-Life 1 using Valve Hammer Editor. There was no warning, I logged in one day and a bunch of stuff was just gone with half a dozen notes saying "we nuked this because it violates AUP". Clarified things with the mods and got the go-ahead to resubmit. "Mapping", as it's known, for Half-Life involves quite a bit more work than say, Minecraft, which is why this stuff was still acceptable under AUP.


----------



## Verin Asper (Apr 2, 2015)

Victor-933 said:


> I got some stuff nuked early on because of a bit of confusion regarding AUP. I had posted screenshots of levels I made for Half-Life 1 using Valve Hammer Editor. There was no warning, I logged in one day and a bunch of stuff was just gone with half a dozen notes saying "we nuked this because it violates AUP". Clarified things with the mods and got the go-ahead to resubmit. "Mapping", as it's known, for Half-Life involves quite a bit more work than say, Minecraft, which is why this stuff was still acceptable under AUP.


This is what tends to happen if you dont have folks who specializes in things, cause another admin can and could clearly go "yea they mention they made this map" but another would go "looks like a game, remove"


----------



## Victor-933 (Apr 2, 2015)

Verin Asper said:


> This is what tends to happen if you dont have folks who specializes in things, cause another admin can and could clearly go "yea they mention they made this map" but another would go "looks like a game, remove"



Well, to be fair, I haven't exactly seen many other people on the site who post screenshots of maps they've made. Garry's Mod, maybe, but that's about as close as it gets. I guess the next-closest thing would be people who doodle things in Google SketchUp, since Hammer is set up very similarly to a commercial CAD program (and can even export into an AutoCAD format).


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 2, 2015)

If you post screenshots of games, expect to have these kinds of problems. These submissions are a lot less original than a commission you got, or something you drew on your own.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Apr 2, 2015)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o3X3AC9vIWx877VWyWyJu8_q964oqo6dxDu_N6JrUcE/edit This is a pretty good read


----------



## Victor-933 (Apr 2, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> If you post screenshots of games, expect to have these kinds of problems. These submissions are a lot less original than a commission you got, or something you drew on your own.



If you say so...


----------



## Roshiyu (Apr 2, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o3X3AC9vIWx877VWyWyJu8_q964oqo6dxDu_N6JrUcE/edit This is a pretty good read



Who wrote this, if I may ask?


----------



## RTDragon (Apr 2, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> Who wrote this, if I may ask?



Actually i just found out who i'll send you a PM with the original link to it. Not going to post it here considering the last thing needed is harrasment coming from here.


----------



## alphaomegaone (Apr 2, 2015)

Victor-933 said:


> If you say so...



You know it was asked here if IMVU stuff gets past the rules, no one gave me an answer. But stuff like this is hard work, there is no way this should be aagainst the rules or anything


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Apr 2, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Actually i just found out who i'll send you a PM with the original link to it. Not going to post it here considering the last thing needed is harrasment coming from here.



I'm curious about this, as well. Could you please inform me, as well?


----------



## Victor-933 (Apr 2, 2015)

alphaomegaone said:


> You know it was asked here if IMVU stuff gets past the rules, no one gave me an answer. But stuff like this is hard work, there is no way this should be aagainst the rules or anything



I guess I should clarify. The stuff I mentioned getting removed happened around 2011, which is what I meant by "early on". I only chimed in because of


Mizuhiro Neko said:


> They don't have to warn you that they're taking something down.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Apr 2, 2015)

Mizuhiro Neko said:


> I'm curious about this, as well. Could you please inform me, as well?



It's from here.


----------



## Mizuhiro Neko (Apr 2, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> It's from here.



Thank you.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 2, 2015)

Ooh, drama! Really, this thread was practically dead, let's revive it with some schmo's letter!


----------



## RTDragon (Apr 2, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> It's from here.



Really wish you did'nt post the link since the last thing we need is a certain someone inciting harrassment.


----------



## Biochemiphy (Apr 2, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Ooh, drama! Really, this thread was practically dead, let's revive it with some schmo's letter!


----------



## RTDragon (Apr 2, 2015)

And that said has quite a bit of valid points.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 2, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Really wish you did'nt post the link since the last thing we need is a certain someone inciting harrassment.



I know you're talking about me, RT.


----------



## Fawk (Apr 2, 2015)

That letter is very bad. The person is being an extremist.


----------



## Victor-933 (Apr 2, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That letter is very bad. The person is being an extremist.


----------



## Tchelline (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That letter is very bad. The person is being an extremist.



So, if someone kills someone else and you call him a killer, are you being an extremist for simply naming the subject after the verb he has commited?


----------



## krystalfox77 (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That letter is very bad. The person is being an extremist.


----------



## Fawk (Apr 3, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> So, if someone kills someone else and you call him a killer, are you being an extremist for simply naming the subject after the verb he has commited?



That is not even remotely comparable. 
The letter is full of opinion and speculation.


----------



## RedReynart (Apr 3, 2015)

Roshiyu said:


> The problem, actually lies in IMVU's previous actions. It's target audience is younger teens, and they host a more adult section for adults.
> 
> When parents found out about this, there was an uproar. IMVU was then forced to create a very strict verification system which includes:
> 
> ...



Social Security #? First of all that is an invasion of privacy and a call to identity theft...
Second, Does that mean a Canadian, German or aussie can't join the site because only the us has such numbers? Or is it just americans dumb enough to fall for such schemes? Not even SL asks for a SS# What is next? What is your blood type?


----------



## Fawk (Apr 3, 2015)

RedReynart said:


> Social Security #? First of all that is an invasion of privacy and a call to identity theft...
> Second, Does that mean a Canadian, German or aussie can't join the site because only the us has such numbers? Or is it just americans dumb enough to fall for such schemes? Not even SL asks for a SS# What is next? What is your blood type?



You have to put your SSN on job applications too, why aren't you up in arms over that? 

Also, there are ways for non-US citizens to get age verified, I do not know them but I know it's an option.


----------



## Tchelline (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That is not even remotely comparable.
> The letter is full of opinion and speculation.



Nope. By applying what we know of bussiness, it is easy to predict that Imvu plans to do nothing but squeeze money from us.

Now, I can say "if you touch that pile of burning wood chunks you might get hurt" and you can say "That is your opinion and it's just a speculation because you just don't know what will happen with that PARTICULAR fire over there" and I will say "yeah but I have knowledge that fire burns" and you will say "nooo nooo noooo you are just speculating".


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 3, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Nope. By applying what we know of bussiness, it is easy to predict that Imvu plans to do nothing but squeeze money from us.
> 
> Now, I can say "if you touch that pile of burning wood chunks you might get hurt" and you can say "That is your opinion and it's just a speculation because you just don't know what will happen with that PARTICULAR fire over there" and I will say "yeah but I have knowledge that fire burns" and you will say "nooo nooo noooo you are just speculating".



That's not a good comparison, you pretty much know that fire burns. That's an undisputed fact.

Now, what IMVU does is pure speculation. You can guess given their history and other factors, but you cannot say you know what they're going to do!


----------



## chesse20 (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> You have to put your SSN on job applications too, why aren't you up in arms over that?
> 
> Also, there are ways for non-US citizens to get age verified, I do not know them but I know it's an option.


because I don't have to pay 20 dollars to sign a job application.


PheagleAdler said:


> That's not a good comparison, you pretty much know that fire burns. That's an undisputed fact.
> 
> 
> Now, what IMVU does is pure speculation. You can guess given their history and other factors, but you cannot say you know what they're going to do!


Um actually yeah you can, IMVU is a major corporation, and corporations exist to make the most amount of money by any means nesccary. Whatever they are going to do they are going to do it ruthlessly and they will ban, block, and sue whoever gets in their way of reaching into our pockets and taking as much as they can


----------



## Fawk (Apr 3, 2015)

chesse20 said:


> because I don't have to pay 20 dollars to sign a job application.
> 
> Um actually yeah you can, IMVU is a major corporation, and corporations exist to make the most amount of money by any means nesccary. Whatever they are going to do they are going to do it ruthlessly and they will ban, block, and sue whoever gets in their way of reaching into our pockets and taking as much as they can



But that is not the point, the point was "omg its unsafe!" but it's not. How is me proving my identity to IMVU any different than me proving my identity to any other company? It is also still a choice you make whether or not you want to do it. If you think it is a risk, don't do it. 

Also, that is still assumptions and speculation. You do not work for IMVU, you do not own IMVU, so you do not know how IMVU will handle things. I have used IMVU for a long time and have not seen them act the way you claim they do.

Yes, they are for profit. But that does not make them some heartless machine that will just steamrolls people to squeeze money out of them.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Apr 3, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> this thread was practically dead


I hate to frustrate your hopes, I really do, but as long as the tragedy, the drama that's Piche selling out the community isn't resolved this thread still got mileage.



> let's revive it with some schmo's letter!



This "schmo," as you call him, has 6000+ watchers. Regardless, the fact that Piche himself has gone into damage control mode in the comments demonstrates how wrong you are. This isn't a small blip on the radar, the truths expressed through that letter resonate with a big chunk, if not the majority of the community, and he better face these valid criticisms if he wants to be a serious representative of IMVU.

Which he only did _after _the letter sent to him was made public...


----------



## rjbartrop (Apr 3, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> If you post screenshots of games, expect to have these kinds of problems. These submissions are a lot less original than a commission you got, or something you drew on your own.



Sorry, but you're wrong.  Modding games does require you to actually make texture maps, and sculpt models.   If effort and creativity are your criteria, then there are adoptables that have less business being on FA.


----------



## RTDragon (Apr 3, 2015)

And not just that many of the modding community have high standards depening on the game so it's not that easy to mod games or even create them.  Considering i also use RPG Maker.


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## Tchelline (Apr 3, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> That's not a good comparison, you pretty much know that fire burns. That's an undisputed fact.
> 
> Now, what IMVU does is pure speculation. You can guess given their history and other factors, but you cannot say you know what they're going to do!



And the purpose of any company is to make money, that's an undisputed fact.



Fawk said:


> But that is not the point, the point was "omg its unsafe!" but it's not. How is me proving my identity to IMVU any different than me proving my identity to any other company? It is also still a choice you make whether or not you want to do it. If you think it is a risk, don't do it.
> 
> Also, that is still assumptions and speculation. You do not work for IMVU, you do not own IMVU, so you do not know how IMVU will handle things. I have used IMVU for a long time and have not seen them act the way you claim they do.
> 
> Yes, they are for profit. But that does not make them some heartless machine that will just steamrolls people to squeeze money out of them.



And here we have another "fire skeptical". We all know that fire burns, but since we haven't tried that pile of burning leaves over there, then we might just be speculating!


----------



## Roshiyu (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> But that is not the point, the point was "omg its unsafe!" but it's not. How is me proving my identity to IMVU any different than me proving my identity to any other company? It is also still a choice you make whether or not you want to do it. If you think it is a risk, don't do it.
> 
> Also, that is still assumptions and speculation. You do not work for IMVU, you do not own IMVU, so you do not know how IMVU will handle things. I have used IMVU for a long time and have not seen them act the way you claim they do.
> 
> Yes, they are for profit. But that does not make them some heartless machine that will just steamrolls people to squeeze money out of them.



In Canada, we also have Social insurance #s. But we don't give them out flippantly. 

The only reason employers need them is to help the government keep track of how much you earn, how much taxes you have to pay, unemployment insurance, ect. Plus, within the standard employer/employee contract there are clauses that protect your SS#. If your employer gives that out to someone who shouldn't have access to it, they are held liable.

IMVU, however... I bet they have no such clauses for your protection. I'm even betting the only legal protections you sign on to are to let them get away with anything, with no liability. Someone hacks their database and steals all their listed SS#'s? Whoops. Perhaps their selling SS#'s and other information to third parties? It's only business, and out of their hands afterwards.

That is, of course, general speculation until I read the terms of the agreement. But since this isn't an employer/employee contract, well, their bottom line is making money. Not your 'protections'.


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 3, 2015)

Damn.  I took a week off and came back hoping this was some really elaborate April Foolâ€™s gag. 

I do beg your pardon for not scrolling back to directly quote, but Iâ€™d like to point out that this isnâ€™t a merger.  It is an acquisition, though you could call it a takeover if you wish.  It wasnâ€™t hostile, Dragoneer didnâ€™t wake up to find a majority of FAâ€™s shares were gobbled up overnight in some sly power play.  It was _willingly sold_.  Calling this a merger is a half-step better than calling this a partnership, but youâ€™re still polishing the unpolishable.

â€œHow many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?  Four.  Calling the tail a leg doesnâ€™t make it a leg.â€ 

Guessing five is better than the people claiming the number was six at the start, but it still isnâ€™t so.  FA was sold; FA was bought; no one was forced, and Dragoneer is almost certainly _not_ an equal to IMVUâ€™s senior staff.

Now then, to the other points I see brought up:
Social Security Numbers: This is unlikely to ever happen for a few reasons.  Foremost of which is that plenty of people do not want their legal identity tied to their online identity or fandom pseudonym; one must also contend with the fact that SSNâ€™s are not a global identifier, which limits its usefulness; and, naturally, there are folks who would simply rather not give meaningful data to IMVU due to lack of trust.

Debating over IMVUâ€™s intentions really is speculation.  I do not _know_, nor can I _prove_ that IMVU did not do this out of the goodness of their hearts.  I find the odds staggeringly against this possibility, but what I _believe_ and what I _know_ are two different things.  That said, I believe it profoundly unlikely that IMVU does not intend to turn a profit on this acquisition.  I donâ€™t know how or over what period of time; all that I can do at this point is wait to see how things pan out. 

I must have missed the post where Dragoneer said this would only be for the better, but I find that an entertaining prospect.  You know what all Americans agree on?  They want a better tomorrow with better leaders, better schools, better roads, better tax rates; they want a better military, better neighbors, and a better car, too, while weâ€™re at it.  Better is real easy to sell to people because better is generic goodness.  Get into the details of â€œbetterâ€ and youâ€™ll see consensus vanish instantaneously. 

Last but not least, a note on privacy.  Fawk, even if you trust IMVU not to do anything nefarious with your personal information, you still have to contend with the fact that sharing such details can only increase your risk.  I still get the feeling that due diligence wasnâ€™t done on this deal, and if a company cannot be bothered to do what is financially prudent for its own good then I can probably assume their security isnâ€™t exactly top notch.   Obviously whether or not you deem the tradeoff of disclosure worthwhile is a personal decision, but IMVU (and Sony, and Facebook, and Google..) cannot leak information that they do not have.  Just a thought, anyway.


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## Tchelline (Apr 3, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Debating over IMVUâ€™s intentions really is speculation.  I do not _know_, nor can I _prove_ that IMVU did not do this out of the goodness of their hearts.  I find the odds staggeringly against this possibility, but what I _believe_ and what I _know_ are two different things.  That said, I believe it profoundly unlikely that IMVU does not intend to turn a profit on this acquisition.  I donâ€™t know how or over what period of time; all that I can do at this point is wait to see how things pan out.



Great, another gravity denier.


----------



## rjbartrop (Apr 3, 2015)

Much has been made about how IMVU wants to make money of FA.   This part of it, at least, I don't have a problem with.  I want to make money off FA too, and I'm certainly not the only artist here who does.   Heck, sometimes it seems like half of FA is trying to sell stuff to the other.   It's a little late to be worried if FA will be corrupted by the pursuit of filthy lucre.

    That there are people who are willing to put up sites like this just for the love of it is fantastic, and they seldom get the credit they deserve, but the problem is that people fall out of love.   Any art site is a large drain of time and money, and most people, despite their best intentions, eventually they just can't keep it up.  The income of the people running FA now depends on keeping it going, just like so may artists on it, and this part at least is a very good thing, IMHO.  
    Of course, this will all depend on how they decide they can make money from this.


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 3, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Great, another gravity denier.




With all that I've said over the last couple weeks, that's it?

I'm saying I don't know their motives and I don't know their plans.  I still don't see how they expect to recoup the investment, and there are enough unknowns in this situation that kicking back and saying, "Obviously, the greedy wanks are going to do so-and-so and such-and-such" is lazy.

Can you say, as a fact, they intend to put up a pay wall?  
Can you say, as a fact, that they're going to go PG on us all?
Can you say, as a fact, they're going to demand SSN's?  

All I'm saying is you've got to have a clear understanding of what you know, what you think you know/believe, and what you know you're missing.  
I know FA got bought; I know Dragoneer sold it willingly; I know IMVU is for-profit; and I know, statistically, the odds of a for-profit doing the fandom a five figure favor just to net a good case of the warm and fuzzies is pretty damn slim.
I believe IMVU isn't to be trusted; I believe IMVU intends to recoup its investment; and I believe Dragoneer sold us down the river.
I haven't a clue how IMVU intends to make its money back; I haven't a clue to the reasoning behind Dragoneer's decision to abruptly sell off FA; I haven't a clue what IMVU paid for FA, what amount they may be willing to accept to give up rights to FA, how they plan to deal with the fallout if/when parents react to furry porn, or any of a dozen other things.

I'm going to neglect the whole unknown/unknown category for obvious reasons.

You want to discuss a topic; you want to plan a way forward?  Then you take stock of what is _solid_ and go from there.

Or, to be simpler still, I can see gravity's effect but this whole situation is about as transparent as a brick wall.  The problem with playing probabilities is that with each step out you're compounding the odds of being wrong; and if you, by some unlikely chance, get Dragoneer to respond to something, it helps if it isn't something long and complicated that can be shot down with a vague line which reveals nothing.  (Okay, right, we wouldn't really trust Dragoneer to be honest and open about anything, but my reasoning stands up; or, at least, I believe it does.)

That's all I'm saying.  It seems reasonable to me and I'm bewildered if you perceive that as equal to me scurrying around in a panic and sewing my pockets shut just so I can be ready if/when gravity suddenly reverses itself.


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 3, 2015)

Actually, I do kind of take issue with FA making money.  Not that I want FA to run a deficit, mind you, but Iâ€™d prefer a situation wherein the community supported FA; not for profit or popularity, but just because itâ€™s a good thing to do.  I know, thatâ€™s my naÃ¯ve optimism showing, but the fact that even â€˜Neer with all previous drama was able to raise ~$20,000 in a fundraising drive should indicate that the community is willing to support itself if given the chance.  If a Wikipedia/Wikimedia-style fundraiser proved insufficient, then I could see experimenting with out means of becoming community sufficient.

Beyond that, I think the concern is less about profit and more about motives.  IMVU is not of our tribe, they are not community members and their business model seems, at least to me, to be shady.  As Iâ€™ve gone on at length previously, their business model is one that has a lot more incentive to allow piracy and abuse than it does to actively weed out theft.  Yes, people are being banned now, but the ill-gotten gains are still in IMVUâ€™s bank account sitting right beside the $20,000 raised to support FA.  In short, most people feel that IMVU doesnâ€™t give half a damn about the fandom or FAâ€™s community; and the seeking of profit at the expense of the fandom or the community is a matter of concern to folks who have been here for the better part of a decade.

And short of really milking FA for a bunch of tax deductions for years to come, I donâ€™t see how IMVU expects to recoup their investment, much less make any substantial profit.  What weâ€™re being told doesnâ€™t really seem to mesh what the reality of the situation, and that is a huge driver of mistrust.  Little has been done to address that, so it is going to fester on.


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## Fawk (Apr 3, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Last but not least, a note on privacy.  Fawk, even if you trust IMVU not to do anything nefarious with your personal information, you still have to contend with the fact that sharing such details can only increase your risk.  I still get the feeling that due diligence wasnâ€™t done on this deal, and if a company cannot be bothered to do what is financially prudent for its own good then I can probably assume their security isnâ€™t exactly top notch.   Obviously whether or not you deem the tradeoff of disclosure worthwhile is a personal decision, but IMVU (and Sony, and Facebook, and Google..) cannot leak information that they do not have.  Just a thought, anyway.



Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand the concern for privacy and a risk.
But IMVU would be held liable if they sold you SSN just like any other company.
I believe you can verify your age without giving a SSN by using something like a drivers license (still personal information, but when verifying your identity, there is no avoiding personal information) but I am not entirely sure. It has been ~4 years since I got verified. So I could be wrong, I know they have changed some things with age verification since I did it.
I am pretty sure your verification information isn't kept on record, IMVU would have no reason to store such information.

There is always a risk with any kind of information being given. Even when it is given privately. I could tell a friend a secret, there is still a risk of said friend telling someone else. In this situation, there is the chance that an IMVU employee might want to steal, use, sell, etc your information. It is not very likely though.

And as you said, it is up to an individual to decide if they feel something is worth it.


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## rjbartrop (Apr 3, 2015)

It's a nice idea, but in practice, most furry sites depend on someone with deep pockets, and a large capacity for abuse, and most eventually reach a point where they can't or just won't do it anymore. FA is currently my third "main" site.  One shut down with a month's notice, and the other went down for months, then read only mode for a year before everyone finally gave up on it.  I found out about another site's closure for someone else's blog after the fact, and this does begon to cover the other furry sites that have shut down or fallen by the wayside over the year.   I applaud your enthusiasm, and by all means, feel free to prove me wrong, but I have heard this tune before.

One way or another, the furry community is still going to be dependent on the whims of whoever actually owns the hardware that's hosting it.


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## RTDragon (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand the concern for privacy and a risk.
> I believe you can verify your age without giving a SSN by using something like a drivers license (still personal information, but when verifying your identity, there is no avoiding personal information)



I've have not seen a company that reqiures a SSN for registration or selling. That kind of business raises a lot of red flags.


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## Fawk (Apr 3, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> I've have not seen a company that reqiures a SSN for registration or selling. That kind of business raises a lot of red flags.


That is going on the assumption that they require it for a registration or sale.
You only have to verify your age if you want to get access to the adult content. Not for anything else. It is not like they are saying "verify your identity or you can't chat with people." or "verify your identity to buy IMVU credits". It is only for a specific thing that is age-restricted content, so you have to prove your age.
I also have to verify my age to buy alcohol in a store.


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## rjbartrop (Apr 3, 2015)

Some interesting links from one of the most recent commenters on the Brent Durrett Q&A.  Make of them what you will.

https://dogpatchpress.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/furaffinity-new-ownership/
https://dogpatchpress.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/imvu-does-a-qa/
https://dogpatchpress.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/community-commodity/


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 3, 2015)

Speculating on what IMVU is going to do or not do with the site is just that: speculation. You can't compare it to not believing in gravity or getting burned by a fire.


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## krystalfox77 (Apr 3, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That is not even remotely comparable.
> The letter is full of opinion and speculation.



Oh that's right, on the internet, speculation and having opinions is a big no no, and is considered the eighth deadly sin.

Having opinions = bad karma


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## -Sliqq- (Apr 3, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Oh that's right, on the internet, speculation and having opinions is a big no no, and is considered the eighth deadly sin.
> 
> Having opinions = bad karma




For the sake of writing, giving a whole lot of opinion won't prove a point at all. For example, it happens in the very threads you & I post in.
The problem is opinions & speculation not supported by reason & facts. It just makes this viewpoint on a reader: "Oh, another whiny complainer" 

Just note that I haven't been able to read the whole letter :v


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## Fawk (Apr 3, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Oh that's right, on the internet, speculation and having opinions is a big no no, and is considered the eighth deadly sin.
> 
> Having opinions = bad karma



Having opinions is not bad. Throwing your opinions out there as if they are fact is bad.
Especially when you phrase things in a way that is so blatantly meant to rile people up.

Example:
"I dislike the government and I do not like where I think the Government is heading" Opinion. Using the word "think" instead of  "know" as an admission of speculation. It leaves things open for debate.
"The government is bad! It's turning people into mindless sheep who don't have the ability to defend or think for themselves!" Opinion, but stated as if it is fact and phrased in such as way as to create conflict. It insults anyone who disagrees with the statement by implying that anyone who is not in agreement is a "mindless sheep". Which immediately eliminates any debate possibility.

Now, my example is not 100% comparable to the letter, but the letter does use phrasing that is meant to cause upset. It reads less like a letter expressing disappointment to dragoneer and more like a "call to arms" for people who are upset. It uses very strong language (not foul language, but strong. Words that hold heavier meanings and the like) and has a underlying layer of self righteous intent.

If it was meant to change anyone's mind or bring light to any issue, it did a very poor job of it. 
It references past events, but doesn't give any information as to what actually happened in those past events.
They talk about how patient they were in order to create a feel that they are some kind of upstanding person, to make readers think higher of them, to try and make their opinion seem more credible.
It uses a lot of speculation to back up opinions. And even makes implications that  Dragoneer is not a _real_ furry anymore.

Of course, they may not have been aware that this is how they were writing, it would not be a stretch to think the person honestly feels this way. And it would not be the first time that a person got up on a soap box and spoke like this without realizing how what they are saying is coming off. People who are upset tend to get this way. 

The letter is, of course, going to sound very appealing to anyone who agrees with the opinions stated. And they are going to stand up and hold it in the air like "Here! Here! This is it!" It just gathers the like-minded together and alienates anyone who is not in agreement.

Now, I will go ahead and say that this is interpretation, this is what I gathered from the letter. I am not alone in seeing this in that letter.


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 4, 2015)

Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Smuttymutt (Apr 4, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> I've have not seen a company that reqiures a SSN for registration or selling. That kind of business raises a lot of red flags.



Amazon does. Just saying...


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## RTDragon (Apr 4, 2015)

Fawk said:


> That is going on the assumption that they require it for a registration or sale.
> You only have to verify your age if you want to get access to the adult content. Not for anything else. It is not like they are saying "verify your identity or you can't chat with people." or "verify your identity to buy IMVU credits". It is only for a specific thing that is age-restricted content, so you have to prove your age.
> I also have to verify my age to buy alcohol in a store.



I don't think you understand i have not seen any art site ask for SSN in fact if they even try to ask for that i can guarantee most will not want to give that information out.


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## Fawk (Apr 4, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> I don't think you understand i have not seen any art site ask for SSN in fact if they even try to ask for that i can guarantee most will not want to give that information out.


First, IMVU is not an art site. Second, the SSN is only to verify your age when purchasing access to age-restricted content.


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## RTDragon (Apr 4, 2015)

Might want to knock it off with the GIF  images Biochemiphy. It's really frowned upon spamming them in threads.


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## Biochemiphy (Apr 4, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Might want to knock it off with the GIF  images Biochemiphy. It's really frowned upon spamming them in threads.



But they're so much fun to use. ;o


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## RTDragon (Apr 4, 2015)

Biochemiphy said:


> But they're so much fun to use. ;o



FAF is not like the forums you go to the mods will nail you for it since it's considered spam.


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## alphaomegaone (Apr 6, 2015)

Fawk said:


> Having opinions is not bad. Throwing your opinions out there as if they are fact is bad.
> Especially when you phrase things in a way that is so blatantly meant to rile people up.
> 
> Example:
> ...



Tell that to Rowedahelicon

He was banned for posting opinions Dragoneer let everyone else stay because theyre angry so no one listens to them


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## RTDragon (Apr 6, 2015)

And Fawk you have not been here that long on FA since there were far more serious issues than just this.


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## Tchelline (Apr 6, 2015)

Dragoneer is winning. He  stole the hard earned money we all gave to him to protect the site  bought invisible servers, then 15 minutes later signed a contract to sell the site and stay as an employee so he can continue slacking... with the difference that now he gets paid. And his plan worked. He just had to wait a couple of weeks for people to cool off and finally accept the knife in their backs.

Maybe Dragoneer is not such an idiot. Mabe he knows us very well, because he managed to get his way with all the furries once again, because furries forget fast and easy.


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## FYIAD (Apr 7, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Dragoneer is winning. He  stole the hard earned money we all gave to him to protect the site  bought invisible servers, then 15 minutes later signed a contract to sell the site and stay as an employee so he can continue slacking... with the difference that now he gets paid. And his plan worked. He just had to wait a couple of weeks for people to cool off and finally accept the knife in their backs.
> 
> Maybe Dragoneer is not such an idiot. Mabe he knows us very well, because he managed to get his way with all the furries once again, because furries forget fast and easy.



Cheery thoughts, those.

We are as dogs tied to a cart, and so compelled to go wherever it dictates we go.  What choice have we?  There is no collar so tight that struggling against the cartâ€™s pull would choke us less than moving along beside.  It isnâ€™t the situation we want and weâ€™re keen to go out of it, but for the moment things are what they are.  (Yeah, I bummed it from the Stoics; it fits the situation, I think.)

Donâ€™t take complacent trotting to be agreeableness or bad memory; at least, not for all involved.  Folks arenâ€™t seeing a way out, and flailing just wastes time and energy; panic does you in quicker. 

So aside from what all has been done, trying to get people to spread their presence and rely less on FA as a hub â€“ and aside from those willing trying to pool together to try to buy FA back â€“ what more is there to do? 

That ainâ€™t me being facetious, itâ€™s a genuine question: what more is there to be done? 

You can loathe the bank to the point youâ€™re foaming at the mouth, and you can resist them taking your house by bolting the doors and shuddering the windows so they have to forcibly remove you, and you can even leave the local branch to burn down to nothing more than ash and slag; but all of that doesnâ€™t change the fact that they just jacked your home. 

Still, youâ€™re right.  People move on, itâ€™s what they do.  Change is hard and its slow and most just donâ€™t have the time or inclination.  Plenty of those folks, Iâ€™m sure, theyâ€™re never in short supply; but for me, I just donâ€™t see a move to make.


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## Charrio (Apr 7, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Cheery thoughts, those.
> 
> We are as dogs tied to a cart, and so compelled to go wherever it dictates we go.  What choice have we?  There is no collar so tight that struggling against the cartâ€™s pull would choke us less than moving along beside.  It isnâ€™t the situation we want and weâ€™re keen to go out of it, but for the moment things are what they are.  (Yeah, I bummed it from the Stoics; it fits the situation, I think.)
> 
> ...



The only thing we can do as artists is, expand our other galleries and be more active on other sites, visiting the forums and being vocal. 
Say hi to artists you know from FA and reconnect, slowly rebuilding the connections we have here. It sucks but it's something i think a lot 
of us were stalling on. 

As to FA, we can only wait and watch hoping for the best. 
But we don't have to stay when changes come that are drastic and community killing. 
Such as a Credit Card needed to have a full account or such. 

I Have *NO* Faith in Dragoneer. 
I have watched him for years, and things have gone up and down. 
Some of his decisions are purely self interests and biased, the whole It's his site HIS law attitude which he 
has every right to, but makes him seem self important and douchey. 

So until I know if this site will die like MySpace did and we migrate to a new one, I'll be here as normal but also 
filling out my other galleries. Will have to stop adding FA in my watermark, Maybe Weasyl, InkBunny, SoFurry, DeviantArt or something.
You know it's bad when InkBunny is on the list of possible alternatives lol


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## Charrio (Apr 7, 2015)

This is a Double post of sorts I know, So please forgive that. 
I had a question which didn't have anything to do with my last post. 

Is it OK for us to start a thread asking IMVU Directly instead of this, Dragoneer thing?
Since he is just a hired goon now, can we talk to the Bosses?


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## Tchelline (Apr 7, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Cheery thoughts, those.
> 
> We are as dogs tied to a cart, and so compelled to go wherever it dictates we go.  What choice have we?  There is no collar so tight that struggling against the cartâ€™s pull would choke us less than moving along beside.  It isnâ€™t the situation we want and weâ€™re keen to go out of it, but for the moment things are what they are.  (Yeah, I bummed it from the Stoics; it fits the situation, I think.)
> 
> ...



That is where you are wrong. This site might legally belong to X entity, but what makes this site worth at all are the artists. If artists leave, this site has less value than a soda bottle. We are the ones who built the site, we qthe qrtists. Dragoneer believe he has any relevance in the site, but he was just a legal figure. We must teach him that the ones who made FA are we, and let him rot with his asinine plans next to Imvu.


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## Charrio (Apr 7, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> That is where you are wrong. This site might legally belong to X entity, but what makes this site worth at all are the artists. If artists leave, this site has less value than a soda bottle. We are the ones who built the site, we qthe qrtists. Dragoneer believe he has any relevance in the site, but he was just a legal figure. We must teach him that the ones who made FA are we, and let him rot with his asinine plans next to Imvu.



I hate what is happening to the site but have an issue with this. 

OK Think of it this way.
Say Dragoneer owns the Oscar Meyer wiener mobile. 
Now many people will say this car is iconic and classic and wonderful. 

Now say, Dragoneer sold this car, everyone who loves this car is upset and they feel it really has some 
historical/sentimental value to them. 

This value does nothing to change the fact Dragoneer owned the car and has every right to sell it, regardless of how car 
fans loved that car. People can get upset and rage but in the end the owner has every right to sell his property. Imagine 
people raging at you for selling a building you own but they feel is a public icon. 

The point is we can get mad all we want and it doesn't matter it's not our call on that. 
It sucks but nothing we can do about an owner selling his stuff, we can however leave this site or area and congregate someplace else.
Just pray it's not like a new owner and will tear the place down to remake it into their home/business


----------



## Tchelline (Apr 7, 2015)

Charrio said:


> I hate what is happening to the site but have an issue with this.
> 
> OK Think of it this way.
> Say Dragoneer owns the Oscar Meyer wiener mobile.
> ...



bad analogy kid, the people who made the car got paid to do that. Furries, on the other hand, made this site big and famous for no payment at all. Dragoneer just stole our glory.


----------



## Charrio (Apr 7, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> bad analogy kid, the people who made the car got paid to do that. Furries, on the other hand, made this site big and famous for no payment at all. Dragoneer just stole our glory.



LOL thank you, haven't been called KID in years heh
I love how you say, OUR Glory. 

Yes Dragoneer is reaping the rewards of the users who have been here now and in the past. 
Users don't pay for anything tho, donators do however. Artists have used this free site to gain popularity 
and fame, as well as a career for many. Why would someone pay YOU or any Artist to post your stuff 
on the site? 

That is what Paysites are for, this was a gallery for you to share stuff with and make connections. People
turned it into a career site, at no point was the site focused on commissions. 

Dragoneer has benefited the most from this it seems and that sucks, but that is life. 
People will always be selfish and liars taking advantage of another's work for their own gain. 
That does suck, but it's not like we own anything here or paid for it unless like i said you're a donator fur. 

I think I'm not saying it correctly, so forgive if I'm not making much sense.


----------



## Tchelline (Apr 7, 2015)

.


----------



## Tchelline (Apr 7, 2015)

Charrio said:


> LOL thank you, haven't been called KID in years heh
> I love how you say, OUR Glory.
> 
> Yes Dragoneer is reaping the rewards of the users who have been here now and in the past.
> ...



Brief and concise explanation about why Imvu lies:

According to Imvu and Dragoneer, Imvu is going to stay "hands-off" the  site and thus they are not going to install premium accounts or other  measures. They say, their benefit from this acquisition (and the month  to month costs it implies) will come from two sources: Ad revenue and  new users getting into Imvu.

Lets arrange this as the following:

A= ad revenue
B= site's maintenance costs
C= Dragoneer's wage as new employee
D= the cost of the coders Imvu claims will bring
E= the cost of the site's acquisition
F= profit for th company

For what we know with solid information from the past experiences, the  ad revenue was not enough to cover the site's maintenance costs, thus we  have:

A<B

According to Imvu, the very same money that was not enough to cover  costs, now is going to be able to cover them and cover all the other  costs:

"A= B+C+D+E+F"

BUT, since A<B, then the correct statement is:

A=/= B+C+D+E+F

They second claimed source of income, as they claim, will be an expectd  influx of furries starting to get curious about Imvu's chat and thus get  into it and start spending money in the virtual goodies it offers. This  second source of income, however, it's pretty unlikely to happen since  the perception that the majority of the furry community has of Imvu is  negative due to the following reasons:

1) Lack of transparency in FA's acquisition
2) A lot consider that SL is better and cheaper (and technically it is better and cheaper)
3) Many furries already hate Imvu because of them allowing art theft and  having long and  complicated mechanisms to remove stolen art (being  forced to have an AP to check stolen art and having to fill a DMCA and  possibly hiring a lawyer to do that).

Considering 1, 2 and 3, one can easily notice that the influx of prople from FA to Imvu's chat will be minimum. 

Will this new value "X" be enough to turn the inequation into an equation such that A+X= B+C+D+E+F?

Given 1, 2 and 3, again, this is quite unlikely to happen. Thus Imvu  will have to find other ways to obtain income from FA... said new  measures however, will inevitably damage the community's acuisitive  power, and both users and artists will feel the blow when Imvu starts  installing measures to squeeze money from us.

As previously demonstrated, what they claim will be their only benefits  is not enough to cover costs and generate profit, thus, they are either  lying or they are just willing to play charity.


----------



## Fawk (Apr 7, 2015)

You are ignoring that the new ad revenue is going to be more than just user submitted ads.


----------



## Charrio (Apr 7, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Brief and concise explanation about why Imvu lies:
> 
> According to Imvu and Dragoneer, Imvu is going to stay "hands-off" the  site and thus they are not going to install premium accounts or other  measures. They say, their benefit from this acquisition (and the month  to month costs it implies) will come from two sources: Ad revenue and  new users getting into Imvu.
> 
> ...



Really good argument, kinda can't think past it lol. 
Well done and you're probably right, kinda depressing


----------



## RTDragon (Apr 7, 2015)

Fawk said:


> You are ignoring that the new ad revenue is going to be more than just user submitted ads.



But let's remember there have been complaints about the ads in the past especially artist ads not going through. And most people use adblock these days due to malicious adware and spyware as well.


----------



## Fawk (Apr 7, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> But let's remember there have been complaints about the ads in the past especially artist ads not going through. And most people use adblock these days due to malicious adware and spyware as well.


Yeah, but there will still be an increase in revenue from ads, people have to admit this. The 3rd party ads will make more money for the site than the user submitted ones.


----------



## Charrio (Apr 7, 2015)

Fawk said:


> Yeah, but there will still be an increase in revenue from ads, people have to admit this. The 3rd party ads will make more money for the site than the user submitted ones.



I just hope it's not something like those annoying car ads that start playing video right off with sound on. 
Or PopUps *shudders*


----------



## Fawk (Apr 7, 2015)

Charrio said:


> I just hope it's not something like those annoying car ads that start playing video right off with sound on.
> Or PopUps *shudders*


I hope the same xD but I doubt it will be like that.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Apr 8, 2015)

Joke's on them, this is why I and so many others install ad-blocking add-ons and even the ones that circumvent anti-adblocking measures, ha !


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 9, 2015)

Charrio said:


> The only thing we can do as artists is, expand our other galleries and be more active on other sites, visiting the forums and being vocal.
> Say hi to artists you know from FA and reconnect, slowly rebuilding the connections we have here. It sucks but it's something i think a lot
> of us were stalling on.
> 
> ...





Well, there is a snag in the reasoning when folks say that â€œWe the artists,â€  Iâ€™m not an artist.  I do not draw, I do not write; I make no music, and while I donâ€™t know of a furry subset in the culinary scene, if there is one, Iâ€™m not a part of that, either.  So any set of actions predicated on one being a creator of content does not apply to me; I am left, by my eye, largely without recourse.  I can speak, I can encourage â€“ if Iâ€™m lucky, I might even ramble off something inspiring, but that seems to be the extent of it. 

As for Dragoneer, I have trouble seeing how he is relevant as this acquisition.  If he speaks, I expect it to be IMVUâ€™s words; if he acts, it will be to IMVUâ€™s desires.  The greeter at your local Wal-Mart doesnâ€™t really care how youâ€™re doing, and the bank teller isnâ€™t giving you money as a personal favor; if they speak, it is the script set out for them, and if they act, it is in a business capacity, not a personal or particularly meaningful one.   If Dragoneer genuinely does have free reign to act as he sees fit in all instances other than those in which IMVU decrees, they I suppose that is something â€“ but I donâ€™t expect it to be much, and Iâ€™d expect that power to dwindle over time.  Itâ€™s why I said before, the era of Dragoneerâ€™s FA has come to an end.




Tchelline said:


> That is where you are wrong. This site might legally belong to X entity, but what makes this site worth at all are the artists. If artists leave, this site has less value than a soda bottle. We are the ones who built the site, we qthe qrtists. Dragoneer believe he has any relevance in the site, but he was just a legal figure. We must teach him that the ones who made FA are we, and let him rot with his asinine plans next to Imvu.





Okay, let us say that you are right: what does it mean for me, a non-artist?  Again, I can speak my mind and try to be useful however I can; but I am not a trendsetter or a content producer.   My writing in this thread is pretty much the sum of my content relating to the fandom over the last decade and a half or so. 

The only reason I speak here at all is because itâ€™s an exceedingly rare circumstance where my participation may have the slightest benefit; and even that may be egotistical on my end.


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 9, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Brief and concise explanation about why Imvu lies:
> 
> According to Imvu and Dragoneer, Imvu is going to stay "hands-off" the site and thus they are not going to install premium accounts or other measures. They say, their benefit from this acquisition (and the month to month costs it implies) will come from two sources: Ad revenue and new users getting into Imvu.
> 
> ...





Yes and no; Iâ€™m with you on the end result, I cannot see a way wherein IMVU is going to make a great profit off FA, but let me tweak your variables a bit.

A = Ad Revenue â€“ This is fine, except that weâ€™re opening to third party ads so we cannot assume A of IMVUâ€™s era to be the same as A of Dragoneerâ€™s era.  Say we call them Ai and Ad, respectively; only the latter is really relevant, but it should be a save assumption that Ai > Ad

B = Site Maintenance â€“ This is fine, except that one must question: do we even know what FA has cost to run in previous years?  I mean, if all we have is Dragoneerâ€™s say so and if most people find Dragoneer to be, at best, an unreliable source of information, then one has to figure that B is iffy.

C = Dragoneerâ€™s Wages & Benefits â€“ This is fine, except not knowing what it amounts to; it can safely be assumed that C > $1.    Not super informative, but virtually guaranteed. 

D = Codersâ€™ Costs â€“ This is fine, except for the fact it is possible that IMVU is using salaried employees to do the work, which means this would not be a monetary expense; it would come with the usual opportunity cost, but thatâ€™s it.  I could make a plausible case that, monetarily speaking, D=$0.

E = Cost of Acquisition â€“ This is fine, though see notes below.

F = Profit â€“ This is Fine


Now, as Iâ€™ve tried to explain elsewhere, I could make the case that E is $0, or at least less than the offer of $50,000 from community members.  Reliable wages and benefits would overtake the acquisition cost before all that long, so long as Dragoneer had a guaranteed wage.  This manner of deal would allow Dragoneer to profit personally, without holding to his implied commitment to share the profits with developers.  (This is implied in Dragoneerâ€™s response to the $50,000 community offer.)

So, to do this properly, you would do well to put this at a set time span: T. 

Add N for New User value, and

You also should factor in Dragoneerâ€™s valuation of having any control over FA, which would have been lessened (though still, by my eye and relatively, would be much stronger) by the community offer.  Call this variable P.

Last but not least, letâ€™s put the Community Offer of $50,000 down as O.

Actually, one more: Total Cost to IMVU, call it Z



For Dragoneer:
O < C + E
O+P < C+E+P, obviously.

We cannot say with any certainty what relation exists between C and E, nor speculate intelligently on the value of P. 

For IMVU:

Ai > Ad
Ai + N > B + C(T) + D + E  
P = (Ai + N) â€“ (B+C[T]+D+E); or, more simply, (Ai+N)-Z.

And that, so far as I can tell, leads to WTF, because you cannot have that many undefined variables and draw any meaningful conclusion.    I can only draw vague relations from what we have, and to do that I have to assume that Dragoneer and IMVU are rational actors and nothing shady was in play, which is the sort of assumption I hate to make.


Admittedly, though, Iâ€™m not the best with this sort of thing; there may be way to tease our additional relations and details, but I still donâ€™t think there is enough solid information to really pin anything down, even though I do have profound doubts that any profits IMVU nets from ads and new users is going to offset Dragoneerâ€™s wages plus the cost of acquisition, regardless of whether or not coders actually cost IMVU anything, especially once you factor in FA maintenance.   Iâ€™m just rubbish at proving the reasons for my skepticism given the hard facts I have handy. >.o


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 9, 2015)

Fawk said:


> Yeah, but there will still be an increase in revenue from ads, people have to admit this. The 3rd party ads will make more money for the site than the user submitted ones.



I don't think too many people discount that opening FA to third party  ads will increase revenue; I think the snag is that no one things that  the additional revenue is going to make IMVU's acquisition profitable,  even after accounting for new members that come to IMVU as a result of  the acquisition.  (Can't speak for others, but I certainly do not feel  compelled to join IMVU as a result; though I suppose it is statistically  more likely, given that I'd never even heard of IMVU before this  mess..)


----------



## rjbartrop (Apr 9, 2015)

Presumably whatever Dragoneer is getting is enough to live on.  Just out of curiosity, i tried to find out how much an Amazon web jockey earned, and I came across the figure of $55,000 on average at this site http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-amazon-web-services-jobs.html

Now if someone who actually does web services at Amazon wants to provide some corrections, please do, but if this is somewhere in the ballpark of what Dragoneer was making at Amazon, then presumably he's getting something similar at IMVU to make it worth giving up.


----------



## FYIAD (Apr 10, 2015)

rjbartrop said:


> Presumably whatever Dragoneer is getting is enough to live on.  Just out of curiosity, i tried to find out how much an Amazon web jockey earned, and I came across the figure of $55,000 on average at this site http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-amazon-web-services-jobs.html
> 
> Now if someone who actually does web services at Amazon wants to provide some corrections, please do, but if this is somewhere in the ballpark of what Dragoneer was making at Amazon, then presumably he's getting something similar at IMVU to make it worth giving up.


Did he do web services?  For some reason I was under the impression that he worked in the warehouse; and while I cannot say offhand what the warehouse folk get, Iâ€™d wager it winds up closer to the $35,000 range than the $55,000.  From the few people I know that have worked at Amazon, Iâ€™ve heard the conditions have been subpar for a while, at least in the warehouse and related positions; micromanagement in the name of extreme efficiency, work conditions that arenâ€™t so great, and such take a toll. 

Youâ€™ve also got to figure that the flexibility in a job has some value; it isnâ€™t just the wage that gets people to sign on.  Iâ€™d much rather take a 15-20% pay cut to have hours of my own choosing or to avoid commuting.  Again, Iâ€™m just speculating, but as far as I can tell, Dragoneer isnâ€™t really going to the office; every instance Iâ€™ve seen of him dealing with his bosses involves a phone, not a face-to-face meeting. 

Honestly, I cannot discern what his job actually _is_ at the moment.  I can look up his title easily enough, I just donâ€™t really grasp the duties he is to perform.  Now, there are two general schools of thought about people who you cannot discern what they do:
Youâ€™ve got the God of Futurama: â€œWhen you do things right, people wonâ€™t be sure youâ€™ve done anything at all.â€ 
Then you have the Office Space HR specialists who are prone to firing folks who canâ€™t aptly describe what their job actually _is_; otherwise known as people who assume that no obvious evidence of work means that no work is actually being done.

That said, and with absolutely no evidence to back up my feelings, I see it as more likely that Dragoneer sold FA for what amounts to an annuity with a side of continuing fandom fame and control than I see it as he sold it for a lump sum and got a job.  The job _is_ the payment, and any lump sum is a bonus. 

Try rationalizing boning the developers you, just a month or two prior, said you were turning down the $50,000 for with the outcome as we see it, where they have none.  If you took the pot of gold and ran off into the night, thatâ€™d look rather underhanded; but if you turned over control to people who could run it better, and just happened to secure a reliable job with decent wages and benefits, well, no one could fault you for that, right?

Consider it the economic experiment of asking someone if theyâ€™d rather have $5 today or $15 three months from now; only in this iteration, it has the added benefit of soothing what may be a troubled conscience. 

Or I could be absolutely wrong on every count.  Iâ€™m curious about the whole affair and the rationale behind the parties; however, I see a whole lot of plausible ways that arenâ€™t altruistic and few that have either party coming out smelling like roses.  The question is, who got played and how badly?  (Other than everyone who donated time and money to building up FA; itâ€™s pretty clear they got thoroughly shafted.)


----------



## Charrio (Apr 10, 2015)

FYIAD said:


> Did he do web services?  For some reason I was under the impression that he worked in the warehouse; and while I cannot say offhand what the warehouse folk get, Iâ€™d wager it winds up closer to the $35,000 range than the $55,000.  From the few people I know that have worked at Amazon, Iâ€™ve heard the conditions have been subpar for a while, at least in the warehouse and related positions; micromanagement in the name of extreme efficiency, work conditions that arenâ€™t so great, and such take a toll.
> 
> Youâ€™ve also got to figure that the flexibility in a job has some value; it isnâ€™t just the wage that gets people to sign on.  Iâ€™d much rather take a 15-20% pay cut to have hours of my own choosing or to avoid commuting.  Again, Iâ€™m just speculating, but as far as I can tell, Dragoneer isnâ€™t really going to the office; every instance Iâ€™ve seen of him dealing with his bosses involves a phone, not a face-to-face meeting.
> 
> ...



God you guys make such good sense, it's frightening really.
It's also sad knowing the fandom is so easily purchased.


----------



## rjbartrop (Apr 10, 2015)

He said we was an AWS at Amazon.  Google returned that as "Amazon Web Services", but I could be wrong, and I fully admit this is some very rough guesstimating.  Not having FA as a financial drain could very well have factored into it.  Whatever he was doing, it provided enough disposable income to at least partially support FA.


----------



## Blitza (Apr 10, 2015)

yaaayyy for IMVU, when you look at the child or whatever i get sick...







How will the Furry Fandom Change ?? In something similar like that ? i hope not


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 10, 2015)

Charrio said:


> God you guys make such good sense, it's frightening really.
> It's also sad knowing the fandom is so easily purchased.



The fandom is not just a single website.


----------



## Charrio (Apr 10, 2015)

Blitza said:


> yaaayyy for IMVU, when you look at the child or whatever i get sick...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God that is frightening and so so badly done wow


----------



## RTDragon (Apr 10, 2015)

That is really creepy uncanny valley right there.


----------



## krystalfox77 (Apr 10, 2015)

Wow, those avatars from IMVU look like subhuman mongoloids. That's frightening...and Dragoneer sold FA out to such asininity? Sad.


----------



## Illuminaughty (Apr 11, 2015)

With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an *idiot*.

IMVU has nothing but a *LONG* history of _exploiting and taking advantage_ of the creators who *built* them. They have an even *longer* history of not listening to the community *whatsoever*, and completely *pissing* on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is *good luck*.

*-Edit-* For the record, I always use this colour and this size font. I am not hiding anything nor am I afraid to say what I have to say. In case that wasn't clear..

With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an *idiot*.

IMVU has nothing but a LONG history of _exploiting and taking advantage_ of the creators who *built* them. They have an even longer history of not listening to the community *whatsoever*, and completely *pissing* on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is *good luck*.


----------



## galadreal (Apr 12, 2015)

Ok, this may have already been answered.  But is there any way to just report a user for stolen artwork on IMVU.  Some of these people have galleries full of shit, and it would take a really long time to track down each artist individually.

Edit:  Dragoneer just told me that if I recognize any of the artists to tell him so he can get in touch with them.  For these....people who have entire galleries made up of several artist...I don't have time for this shit, and it is not my fucking job to monitor them.  And clearly he does not give a shit.  So.  Here is a link to stores of stolen artwork.  If anybody else feels like doing shit, have fun.  I am so done with this crap:

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=102350454&page=1&cat=107  each image is under a link, you have to have an account to even see the stuff.  But there were watermarks by Falvie, Slushie-Nyappy-Paws, and Flaredra   and those were just the ones i could easily make ot

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/web_flag_product.php?products_id=11797492  Here is one from Bluefreak...or Lockwork Orange.  Or whatever she goes by now.  but the person's store has lots of stuff that I recognize but do not know artist from.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=59099778&page=1  I know I saw a Jay Naylor in this one.  There are several others, but I cannot recognize every ones's style.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=57373066&cat=107-1027-1446&page=1  once again, I don't recognize all the styles, bt there are several of them

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=51410775&cat=107-1027&page=1  Another person who hides a bunch of stolen artwork behind a shittastic icon.  So you have to have an account to see what it is with the Try feature.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=38716080&cat=107-1027-1446&page=1

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=38102161&cat=107&page=1

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=72689274&cat=107&page=1

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=13808370


----------



## TheArchiver (Apr 12, 2015)

Illuminaughty said:


> With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?
> 
> You are an *idiot*.
> 
> ...



Speak up next time. That formatting was unnecessary. And while I agree, this adds absolutely nothing. This has been said in every which fashion possible.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 13, 2015)

Illuminaughty said:


> With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?
> 
> You are an *idiot*.
> 
> ...



Well, they didn't piss on us...yet. The art theft is/was an ongoing thing, don't feel special because FA's not the only site they've stolen from (of course you already know that)


----------



## Gryphoneer (Apr 13, 2015)

Piche stated on the official changelog of the beta he would commit himself to making progress quote "every 2-3 days" end quote. That's 8 full days since April the 5th, what would amount to 2-4 tweaks. 

 The list of subsequent updates is empty. How do you explain yourself?


----------



## krystalfox77 (Apr 13, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Piche stated on the official changelog of the beta he would commit himself to making progress quote "every 2-3 days" end quote. That's 8 full days since April the 5th, what would amount to 2-4 tweaks.
> 
> The list of subsequent updates is empty. How do you explain yourself?



Yes, that would be called bullshitting, I believe. Don't quote me on that though.


----------



## PastryOfApathy (Apr 13, 2015)

So has anything remotely eventful happened yet or is shit basically been on repeat for the last two months?


----------



## -Sliqq- (Apr 13, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> So has anything remotely eventful happened yet or is shit basically been on repeat for the last two months?



They get to move forward 5 spaces mid-loop. Sucks cuz' they always get hit with a 'Sorry' card.


----------



## TheArchiver (Apr 13, 2015)

PastryOfApathy said:


> So has anything remotely eventful happened yet or is shit basically been on repeat for the last two months?



If Vivisector is not discussing it, nothing has happened.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 14, 2015)

I think it's quite possible that he just didn't post, but I couldn't say either way. But after a detailed browse of the site, have any visible changes been made? I'm still waiting for the Search function to be fixed.


----------



## FoxWolfie (Apr 14, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> But after a detailed browse of the site, have any visible changes been made?



I check the beta each day or two.  I specifically look for any of the suggested fixes, but haven't noticed anything different in the past week.  All the same glitches are still there.  I am perfectly happy with classic FA, but, if they are planning to eventually switch over to making the beta the default, small incremental fixes every couple days would be nice.  I suspect Dragoneer's trying to fix everything mentioned at once to make everyone happy, but that's even bigger stress waiting to happen, because it's impossible to please everyone.  Little bits at a time with incremental feedback, works a lot better. That allows for changes along the way, and prevents going too far in any direction that most people don't want. Whatever he is doing, I just hope he can keep his stress shields operating at full power!


----------



## Croconaw (Apr 14, 2015)

Is Kalmor retired yet?

Unless the big change was Neer selling FA and having a beta that's barely functional thrown at us, I don't see anything different.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Apr 14, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Is Kalmor retired yet?
> 
> Unless the big change was Neer selling FA and having a beta that's barely functional thrown at us, I don't see anything different.



When Kalmor made that statement, I did not see any specifics, so I figured any change qualified.


----------



## TheArchiver (Apr 14, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> When Kalmor made that statement, I did not see any specifics, so I figured any change qualified.



In response to me:



Kalmor said:


> Yes. I'm a man of my word, and *I will leave if I see one more thing that originally looks promising (like this) but then all of a sudden there's no word of it for an extended period of time after*.
> 
> I am confident, however. Remember, I can see things internally that most people can't see. There is progress being made each day with no sign of stopping that I can see. I wouldn't say something like what I did if it didn't believe it or not willing to follow through.



A _new_ UI was the topic, not a beta. It was promised the 22nd of February. It is halfway to May. I'd say that's an extended period of time considering they've promised one for literally years. Even the beta has halted at the moment as there has been no visible update since it's launch despite more promises of updates every 2-3 days.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Apr 14, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Is Kalmor retired yet?
> 
> Unless the big change was Neer selling FA and having a beta that's barely functional thrown at us, I don't see anything different.



 Yeah but...  :c


----------



## Illuminaughty (Apr 14, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Well, they didn't piss on us...yet. The art theft is/was an ongoing thing, don't feel special because FA's not the only site they've stolen from (of course you already know that)



Just wait. Also I doubt you've ever heard of IMVU if you're this so-so about this entire shitfest waiting to happen.



PastryOfApathy said:


> So has anything remotely eventful happened yet or is shit basically been on repeat for the last two months?



See, the thing is, it took IMVU a few years to kill their reputation and subsequently their business. If you're waiting for a gigantic implosion, I hate to disappoint you but that's just not going to happen. More likely than not, it will be a slow death that drags out for a while until it putters to an uneventful close, sustained only by the ignorance of newbies who are drawn in by the shiny idea of the thing.

Just like IMVU itself. It's a soulless machine, feeding off of the wallets of new people who don't initially realize what they've stumbled into. By the time they do, they've contributed enough to IMVU that the revenue that IMVU continues to generate from their shop or the friends they brought will be enough until they can lure the next ignorant newbie in.

It's diabolically clever, really.


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 15, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> In response to me:
> 
> 
> 
> A _new_ UI was the topic, not a beta. It was promised the 22nd of February. It is halfway to May. I'd say that's an extended period of time considering they've promised one for literally years. Even the beta has halted at the moment as there has been no visible update since it's launch despite more promises of updates every 2-3 days.



So, depends on what Kalmor defines as an 'extended period of time' then. There has never been a beta UI been made available directly on the site (I do recall an alternate URL, but that's about it) We'll just have to see how long this beta goes on without any updates.



Illuminaughty said:


> Just wait. Also I doubt you've ever heard of IMVU if you're this so-so about this entire shitfest waiting to happen.



Has anyone really 'heard' of IMVU? It's not a site you just stumble upon or even get recommended to check out by a friend.

Also, what's with the grey font?


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## Tchelline (Apr 15, 2015)

n the UI Beta, you cannot edit your submissions. You can delete them, but not change their tags, rating or edit the description.

This problem was noted on April 6th and Dragoneer stated that it would be fixed "tomorrow" (i.e April 7th):

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/585324847850459138

It still has not been fixed.

A big (ha ha) problem with the UI is that everything is too big, esp. the huge font. On April the 5th Dragoneer promised this would be fixed "tomorrow" (i.e April 6th):

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6636092#cid:45182824

It still has not been fixed.

In fact Dragoneer simply stopped replying to comments, on the Furaffinity UI early beta journal, after April 5th. 

The journal currently has over 2000 comments and he's ignoring it.

What has Dragoneer been doing since April 5th? He's been playing the MMORPG Elder Scrolls online:

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/585448325123547137

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/586720028910817280

Over the past few weeks he's been tweeting about that game a lot.

He claimed to be "rather busy" on April 12th:

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/587438673647562752

But doing what? He hasn't been working on the UI and people are still complaining about TTs and E-mails going unanswered. He didn't attend the FWA convention either.


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 15, 2015)

F*cking Elder Scrolls X.X


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## krystalfox77 (Apr 15, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> n the UI Beta, you cannot edit your submissions. You can delete them, but not change their tags, rating or edit the description.
> 
> This problem was noted on April 6th and Dragoneer stated that it would be fixed "tomorrow" (i.e April 7th):
> 
> ...



Oh look at that, Dragoneer and his team of drones are to f*cking lazy to improve the site yet again.


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## Biochemiphy (Apr 16, 2015)

Is this thread ever going to end? o.o


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## Charrio (Apr 16, 2015)

Biochemiphy said:


> Is this thread ever going to end? o.o



The Day Dragoneer is a responsible person, So I'd say.... NEVER!


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 16, 2015)

I think this thread will go on for a long time, simply because it's titled "FA/IMVU Discussion" meaning even if the problems were fixed, people would still find this thread an appropriate to discuss things related to the acquisition.


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## Gryphoneer (Apr 16, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> I think this thread will go on for a long time, simply because it's titled "FA/IMVU Discussion" meaning even if the problems were fixed, people would still find this thread an appropriate to discuss things related to the acquisition.



Hair-splitting, nothing but hair-splitting about rhetorics. It was clear for all, and will be for newbs since they can simply look up the first page, that this thread was about the clusterfuck of problems introduced by Piche selling out the community.


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 16, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Hair-splitting, nothing but hair-splitting about rhetorics. It was clear for all, and will be for newbs since they can simply look up the first page, that this thread was about the clusterfuck of problems introduced by Piche selling out the community.



Really, the nonexistent problems that did not crop up? What are these so-called 'problems' that the sale caused? I know of problems prior to that, but that's about it


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## Gryphoneer (Apr 16, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Really, the nonexistent problems that did not crop up? What are these so-called 'problems' that the sale caused? I know of problems prior to that, but that's about it


Holy shit dude, did you ram a fork into your hindbrain or what caused this gaping memory hole?

What about, I don't know, the massive art theft perpetrated on our new overlords' site and the legal hurdles they threw into the artists' way to remove them? It's time to stay away from posting for a while, you're digging your grave deeper with each sentence.


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## Tchelline (Apr 16, 2015)

Charrio said:


> The Day Dragoneer is a responsible person, So I'd say.... NEVER!



I don't live in the USA but when I get the chance to meet Piche in person I will tell him what I think sbout him.


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## Biochemiphy (Apr 16, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> I don't live in the USA but when I get the chance to meet Piche in person I will tell him what I think sbout him.



That you love him and want to play 'Hide the Sausage' with him?


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## Gryphoneer (Apr 16, 2015)

Biochemiphy said:


> That you love him and want to play 'Hide the Sausage' with him?



Your perma cannot come quickly enough.


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## -Sliqq- (Apr 16, 2015)

Charrio said:


> The Day Dragoneer is a responsible person, So I'd say.... NEVER!



Who's Dragoneer?


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## Tchelline (Apr 16, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Who's Dragoneer?



This, fucking this. This is a proof of how much of an ignorant you are. Stop wasting our time.


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## PastryOfApathy (Apr 16, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, fucking this. This is a proof of how much of an ignorant you are. Stop wasting our time.



Tone down that edge son, or you're gonna end up cutting someone.


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 16, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Holy shit dude, did you ram a fork into your hindbrain or what caused this gaping memory hole?
> 
> What about, I don't know, the massive art theft perpetrated on our new overlords' site and the legal hurdles they threw into the artists' way to remove them? It's time to stay away from posting for a while, you're digging your grave deeper with each sentence.



You got a fucking brain tumor, wiseass? The so-called "massive art theft" was happening well before the sale and has absolutely nothing to do with it. Keep it up, you're not getting any smarter.


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## krystalfox77 (Apr 17, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, fucking this. This is a proof of how much of an ignorant you are. Stop wasting our time.



Someone here needs to calm their tits before a gasket's blown.


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## Gryphoneer (Apr 17, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Who's Dragoneer?



Woah, watch out Pheagle, someone's jockeying for your position as main hot-air producer!



PheagleAdler said:


> You got a fucking brain tumor, wiseass?


Hold it right there, copycat, I came up with the neuroanatomy angle first; that's just that with minor alterations.



> The  so-called "massive art theft" was happening well before the sale and has  absolutely nothing to do with it. Keep it up, you're not getting any  smarter.


Why, of course! That IMVU created a system vulnerable to selling stolen art and allowed the sale of stolen art, which cut into the original artists' profits, is perfectly a-okay as long as they were ignorant of it! And the fact Piche told everyone you needed to file a DMCA to take your stolen art down, whether or not it's actually true, is a negligible detail.

You're one smart, smart cookie. Good show.


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 17, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Woah, watch out Pheagle, someone's jockeying for your position as main hot-air producer!



No, he's just a plain old idiot. Me, on the other hand, I'm someone you disagree with, which you have a problem with.


> Hold it right there, copycat, I came up with the neuroanatomy angle first; that's just that with minor alterations.
> 
> 
> Why, of course! That IMVU created a system vulnerable to selling stolen art and allowed the sale of stolen art, which cut into the original artists' profits, is perfectly a-okay as long as they were ignorant of it! And the fact Piche told everyone you needed to file a DMCA to take your stolen art down, whether or not it's actually true, is a negligible detail.
> ...



lol you don't own the neuroanatomy angle, at least I was blunt about it. 

I'm not saying what IMVU's users are doing is okay, and IMVU doesn't have a very preferable way of handling it either, but you're still missing the point. The sale did not somehow make IMVU's users suddenly start stealing art from FA; they were doing that WELL BEFORE it.

Let me be perfectly clear when I say I think IMVU should address this issue with a firm hand and start banning people who are stealing art. They ought to revamp the system to make it easier to search, but I think that's wishful thinking on my part.

Being ignorant about art theft doesn't make it okay, but it does make it an unknown. The internet is a huge place, Gryphoneer. Who else is stealing artwork from FA? Who knows? I certainly don't, and they're probably going to remain hidden unless they buy up another furry art site.


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## Tchelline (Apr 17, 2015)

krystalfox77 said:


> Someone here needs to calm their tits before a gasket's blown.



Maybe you have Alz Heimer but that person - Sliqq- spammed nonsense in this thread and derailed it massively and actd like a bigot.... When indeed he is just an ignorant who doesn't even know who is Dragoneer.


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## Blitza (Apr 17, 2015)

Biochemiphy said:


> That you love him and want to play 'Hide the Sausage' with him?



No, that He will reconstructing his face new


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## -Sliqq- (Apr 17, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> This, fucking this. This is a proof of how much of an ignorant you are. Stop wasting our time.



Wow. Surprised you took that seriously.

Let's use our common sense here. This whole thread has been about Dragoneer & Art-Theft (The basis of it was). I hear that he has a bad rep and I can hear why, but when I ask "Who's Dragoneer?" it's because I don't know *exactly* who he is and I wasn't here long enough to know.

Sure, a level of ignorance is there, but how the fuck am I supposed to know any of this? 

Now I'll extend a friendly hand of "right back at ya".


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## RTDragon (Apr 17, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Wow. Surprised you took that seriously.
> 
> Let's use our common sense here. This whole thread has been about Dragoneer & Art-Theft (The basis of it was). I hear that he has a bad rep and I can hear why, but when I ask "Who's Dragoneer?" it's because I don't know *exactly* who he is and I wasn't here long enough to know.
> 
> ...



You might want to stop now Sliqq usually humor does'nt fit well in serious discussions such as this.


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## Illuminaughty (Apr 17, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Also, what's with the grey font?





Illuminaughty said:


> For the record, I always use this colour and this size font. I am not hiding anything nor am I afraid to say what I have to say.



Also what's with your baseless defending of the actions taken? Are you *that* afraid to admit that things may not turn out peachy? I *know* IMVU. Texture and art theft runs absolutely *rampant* there, and rarely receives the attention it deserves, if ever. They have imposed "theft reducing" rules that do nothing but hobble the honest developers, and do not listen to any protest against such unnecessary, non-useful measures. They continually step on the honest developers for the sake of "security", whilst the theft continues to go on as much as ever; meanwhile, the creators suffer. And the fact remains that they do not *care.* 
They very recently screwed over their *entire developer base*, unapologetically, and lauded the change as a good thing. *I* was there. *Where were you?

*Anyway temperatures seem to be running a little hot around here and I prefer to be in a space where cooler heads and calm words prevail. Ta-ta.


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## Tchelline (Apr 17, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Wow. Surprised you took that seriously.
> 
> Let's use our common sense here. This whole thread has been about Dragoneer & Art-Theft (The basis of it was). I hear that he has a bad rep and I can hear why, but when I ask "Who's Dragoneer?" it's because I don't know *exactly* who he is and I wasn't here long enough to know.
> 
> ...



You have massively spammed this thread with your stupid bullshit since you first came here, we are all discussing something serious and you just appear posting irrelevant useless shit without knowing two things about what is going on.

I told this in another post, and I will write it again: TAKE ALL YOUR INMATURITY AND GO AWAY, UNDERAGE.


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## -Sliqq- (Apr 17, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> You might want to stop now Sliqq usually humor does'nt fit well in serious discussions such as this.



Gotcha bro. You won't have to see my face here(in this thread) again. But I will be checking back to see if anyone answered my question or to see the progress made. I can see that someone really doesn't want me here, because I'm not as serious as I "should" be. That's something that's truly unrealistic; that I have to conform to _their_ liking. We might as well be all the same with nothing any different, doing what our neighbor is doing, & all liking that some color & tone of grey.



Tchelline said:


> You have massively spammed this thread with your stupid bullshit since you first came here, we are all discussing something serious and you just appear posting irrelevant useless shit without knowing two things about what is going on.
> 
> I told this in another post, and I will write it again: TAKE ALL YOUR INMATURITY AND GO AWAY, UNDERAGE.



Immaturity is only seen by a bigot. Who's you to tell me what's mature or not? You can shove a dictionary in my face all day but what does that prove? That you can look for a word? Not that you understand that "maturity" is a subjective term? Only a person who views themself as mature will call somebody else immature (unless you're of pure heart & I can for sure tell that you're on the same playing field as me). Quit the crap about maturity, it just makes you sound like someone who lost their itty bitty fuse and tried to make a big deal out of the little spark that came flying out. 

But if you like to fight on those terms, age doesn't mean jack shit. Can you tell me what I like & what I want to do based on my age? Am I into pop culture or "I don't care about school"? Better yet, am I as foolish as you expect me to be? Do you really think you know me, based off the tiny bit of information that you have received? (If you can, you must be Sherlock Holmes. But he's only fictional, a figment of your imagination). I'd hate to be described as something as discrete as a number. I was never born into a list of numbers that can be counted. I exist in a world of infinite possibility. The chances of you being right about anything about me is 1 out of infinity, and no equation or psychiatry book can tell you otherwise. Everyone here is an individual and is allowed to have their own views on a subject with or without critique of their words.

Do you know what's worse? When I requested information, wittingly or seriously, and not getting any information from it. Instead, I receive malice for the bad aftertaste in your mouth and your own ideas of what is mature & not mature. If you believe someone is lacking in information, you give them more. You don't put yourself on a higher pedestal by withholding information. It's like how this thread is at times, talking a lot but not actually doing
anything productive or meaningful. You can't get angry at your kids if they don't know any better, you have to teach them what they're doing wrong so they don't end up making those mistakes again. Or to put it in another way: _How could the teacher expect his/her students to pass if he/she hasn't taught anything. _It's the same issue in a different scenario.

I never once decided to blow hot air, I only give an idea of what you're doing whether you notice it, agree or disagree with it or not. Again, I speak as an outsider looking in, and you could *never* change that fact.


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## krystalfox77 (Apr 17, 2015)

Oh my, this thread sure hit the fan faster than shit, didn't it?


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## PheagleAdler (Apr 17, 2015)

Illuminaughty said:


> Also what's with your baseless defending of the actions taken? Are you *that* afraid to admit that things may not turn out peachy? I *know* IMVU. Texture and art theft runs absolutely *rampant* there, and rarely receives the attention it deserves, if ever. They have imposed "theft reducing" rules that do nothing but hobble the honest developers, and do not listen to any protest against such unnecessary, non-useful measures. They continually step on the honest developers for the sake of "security", whilst the theft continues to go on as much as ever; meanwhile, the creators suffer. And the fact remains that they do not *care.*
> They very recently screwed over their *entire developer base*, unapologetically, and lauded the change as a good thing. *I* was there. *Where were you?
> 
> *Anyway temperatures seem to be running a little hot around here and I prefer to be in a space where cooler heads and calm words prevail. Ta-ta.



*I* was not using IMVU and I don't plan to in the future. Also, your font color is not a good choice to read over a white background.


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## Blitza (Apr 20, 2015)

still alive that Thread i see


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## Grandpriest (Apr 27, 2015)

Remember when this site was ran by people who at least were semi-competent about having the community's best interest at heart?
*sigh*
I miss those times.


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## Shireton (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't remember that at all.


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## Grandpriest (Apr 28, 2015)

That's because you didn't *hear* about as much drama on FA's side.


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## ToniB (Aug 3, 2016)

Hmm...>_>


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## -Sliqq- (Aug 10, 2016)

ToniB said:


> Hmm...>_>


These were salty times.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Aug 10, 2016)

I am locking this thread due to pretty blatant necro.


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