# Beastars Analysis! (spoilers warning)



## Nihles (Mar 24, 2020)

Conversation question: if you could become your Fursona, but in the Beastars setting where everyone is proportionally sized to everyone else, would you do it? I imagine many of our herbivore friends would not x3

So, I binged the new Netflix anime. I had just intended to watch one or two episodes, not expecting to like it (as literally all my friends texted me OMG FURRY SHOW is this what you're into?).

But OH. MY. FLUFFY BUTT.

This ended up being a LOT more nuanced and complex than I expected, and I really want to know what other people who have seen it took away. Fair warning, this show is rated MA 17+ due to graphic violence and nudity.

Some big themes I found -

1. Coming to terms with your body, and your sexuality. Since this show takes place primarily in high school, puberty is an easy subtext to arrive at. Legoshi and the other carnivores dealing with their bloodlust, each in their own way, reminds a lot of the boys from my high school struggling with excessive anger and lust.  I think there is a lot that young adult males could relate to from that. Additionally, there is Haru trying to find ways around her tiny stature and actually be seen as a young woman.
I'm trying to figure out the duality of Legoshi's massive size and her tiny body, why is that so central? How is Haru so confident and brave, while the much larger wolf is so timid socially? And why on Earth do they drag out the will they/won't they plot?

2. Issues of how one sees themselves vs how society sees them - I think this applies to literally every character as they learn about their place in the outside world. Louis would be my example, but I'm sure there are more interesting points to  be made about this in the show.  I actually hated his character arc, his last decision after defeating an alpha predator in the finale just made no sense. But, I did like the idea of his doing everything he can to NOT act like a stereotypical deer throughout most of the show.

I myself, as an LGBT person tried very hard to act against expectations of my orientation and gender for many years, but as of now am much more confident and less depressed just being honest about who I am to myself and my friends.

Anyway. Who was your favorite character? Disagree with anything I said?
What stuck out to you?


----------



## Skittles (Mar 24, 2020)

JUNO! Best girl! She is so determined!

This show was an absolute delight to sit down and watch. =D


----------



## Nihles (Mar 24, 2020)

Skittles said:


> JUNO! Best girl! She is so determined!
> 
> This show was an absolute delight to sit down and watch. =D


I would have loved to see Juno in the plot earlier. She's cute but I didn't really get a sense of her beyond "I wanna be popular!" Is she healthy? Too driven? I feel like I'm missing something. As far as I can tell her biggest contribution to the show is to make Legoshi miserable. lol


----------



## Skittles (Mar 24, 2020)

Nihles said:


> I would have loved to see Juno in the plot earlier. She's cute but I didn't really get a sense of her beyond "I wanna be popular!" Is she healthy? Too driven? I feel like I'm missing something. As far as I can tell her biggest contribution to the show is to make Legoshi miserable. lol


I sense she will probably stand out more in the next season. I don't think we have seen her completely yet. I got the feeling there is perhaps some darker side to her.


----------



## Nihles (Mar 24, 2020)

Skittles said:


> I sense she will probably stand out more in the next season. I don't think we have seen her completely yet. I got the feeling there is perhaps some darker side to her.


After that scene with her and Louis alone? I have to agree.


----------



## Skittles (Mar 24, 2020)

Nihles said:


> After that scene with her and Louis alone? I have to agree.


Precisely because of that scene!


----------



## AcerbicSeth (Mar 24, 2020)

I just did the same thing a few days ago!
Decided to give it a try expecting not to like it, but wound up hooked after the first episode.

Legosi was probably my favorite character, being one of the main focuses of the story and all.
Plus, that's one of the few instances where I felt like I could actually relate to a character in a story, since I had to work through a few similar things back when I was in high school.


Spoiler



I mean... I never had to go and fistfight a bunch of lions, thankfully. 



Really looking forward to when season two will be released.


----------



## Nihles (Mar 24, 2020)

AcerbicSeth said:


> I just did the same thing a few days ago!
> Decided to give it a try expecting not to like it, but wound up hooked after the first episode.
> 
> Legosi was probably my favorite character, being one of the main focuses of the story and all.
> ...


Same. Even though he gets more screen time than anyone else, I still can't get enough of the gentle wolf with a dark hunger. His huge size and awkward sized limbs/body language really reinforces his personality. I don't think I've seen a better allegory for suddenly having a bunch of testosterone shooting through your veins than the hungry beast he so clearly resents.  There's a reason women are told to be cautious of men, no matter how gentle they seem to want to be.


----------



## Nihles (Mar 26, 2020)

HunterSkunk said:


> Legosi is also my favorite character, both because I have a crush on him (hell, I first found out about the series through fan art of him on Fur Affinity), and also because I can really relate to his sexual confusion.
> 
> When I was in Middle School, I found myself starting to notice that I was into certain things that I didn't really understand at the time. The part of it that bothered me the most was the fact that I was always moreso attracted to dudes, and although I was confused as hell by it, I just kinda ignored it for a while. It was in High School that I began to understand that those feelings were caused by me being into certain kinks and being Gay, and I have since fully come to terms with it. In a really similar way, Legosi begins to feel things he's never felt before towards Haru, and he has a hard time understanding what it is and why he feels differently towards Haru then anyone else. After a lot happens between them and Legosi learns more about himself and his feelings, he begins to realize that what he's feeling towards Haru is love.
> 
> ...



For all I know, I might have drawn some of that fanart. lol


----------



## Nihles (Mar 26, 2020)

Brilliant.


----------



## Nihles (Mar 28, 2020)

If I became my sona in this setting, I think it'd be worth the risk. I'm kinda smol but at least I have fangs! Just have to stay inside and hang out with my cool friends. Jogging outside would be scary though


----------



## PercyD (Mar 29, 2020)

Nihles said:


> Same. Even though he gets more screen time than anyone else, I still can't get enough of the gentle wolf with a dark hunger. His huge size and awkward sized limbs/body language really reinforces his personality. I don't think I've seen a better allegory for suddenly having a bunch of testosterone shooting through your veins than the hungry beast he so clearly resents.  There's a reason women are told to be cautious of men, no matter how gentle they seem to want to be.


Tbh, I feel like Legosi would be  A LOT better off if he learned how to blink.

He's not a bad boy. He just _stares._ If the boy just learned how to blink a little more often, he'd be okay. One of his dog friends could show him. I swear-

But I feel like the "being cautious around men" sentiment is lost. It's not a direct parallel because Legosi is literally an animal who, by the way, is being denied meat. Carnivores need meat to survive. They have had to forgo it because there seems to be no source of meat thats not sentinent in this universe. It's really problematic-

Human men have enough wherewithal to control themselves. It's not like women don't have these impulses. Hell, Haru is the good parallel to this. She has sexual impulses because thats the only way she relates to people. Thats as much of a need as some man wanting to get his joneses off. She even admits "I just wanted to sleep with a wolf that day. My bad, bro-"

I don't want to give men a pass on this. They need to control themselves. ESPECIALLY because (1) they aren't animals and (2) they aren't being denied meat that they need to literally survive.


----------



## Starbeak (Mar 29, 2020)

What a show!! I highly recommend it. I just finished watching it last night.

12 Episodes and I felt like it didn't even start yet.

The plot was amazing.

I am not normally into this genre but Beastars is my exception.

Now for my opinion: _May contain peanuts    spoilers

_​


Spoiler: Beastars



First episode in, I seen that Legosi had a "dark side". At first, I thought he had split personalities.

I continued to watch the episode, and was introduced to Haru. I thought "_She is  way too loose"
_
But as time went on, we got to hear more of her story and there is so much more to Haru and Legosi than I originally thought.

I think it is a good thing Legosi and Haru waited. I felt bad for Louis (spelled differently I know) when he revealed his darkest secret at the end on episode 11 (I think it was)... But he was really hard-headed throughout and didn't seem like he cared for Haru enough to go help Legosi save her.



So all-in-all, a lot of the characters have their own unique traits (can't say I relate to any of them yet) nor do I really have a favorite... But I will say, season 2 is going to be amazing. (=


----------



## Angelcakes (Mar 29, 2020)

The series is pretty amazing. I've been reading the manga before the anime was announced, and one of the things I've noticed is how universal the themes in this story is, in spite of how very Japanese it actually is.

So some quick backstory here: 

The manga is by Paru Itagaki. Paru is the daughter of another successful manga artist: Keisuke Itagaki, the creator of Baki The Grapper. Baki has been going strong since the mid 80s and is basically an institution in Japan at this point, so Paru had a lot to live up to. You know the storyline about Legom, the hen? Legom is Paru's self-insert character, and her storyline is basically a metaphor for the anxiety and pressure she feels as a manga artist.

Paru herself did not set out to create some massive social metaphor or anything when she created Beastars. But the story sort of naturally evolved into that over time (because in this kind of universe those thematic elements are pretty much inevitable). The themes in the manga are both specific to its universe, but can also translate into current social issues.

One of the big ones that a lot of Westerners tend to miss is the whole subject of Herbivore/Carnivore relations. In Japan, these terms actually have a very specific meaning in modern Japanese culture: sexual openness. Japan's declining birthrate and rapidly aging population is a fairly well-known issue internationally, and Beastars actually taps into that a lot. Legoshi is species-wise a carnivore, but he tends to show little interest in women or sex in general (making him 'Herbivore Male'). Haru, even though species-wise she a herbivore, is fairly promiscuous sexually (making her a 'Carnivore Female'). Japanese culture has fairly rigid traditional roles for gender, but the modern world has made these conservative cultural constraints impossible to maintain. There are also a lot of social obligations that go with sexuality and parent-hood in Japanese culture (for both mothers and fathers), so the additional stress that Japanese society puts on individual men and women has convinced a generation of men and women that sex is either not worth it, or that sexual openness should be accepted. 

There's also some other themes on tolerance: Louis is basically the 'model minority' who is trying to show that Herbivores can be strong and forthright on their own in the system as it currently exists, but it also shows the enormous stress it puts on him, his almost maniacal inferiority complex, and how it has genuinely screwed him up mentally. He's also a lot more like Legoshi then he wants to admit.

Oh, and as for Legoshi himself.....I won't spoil it, but you know how lanky and awkward he looks? That's not just something that's regular for wolves: in Legoshi's case it's genetic. You'll probably find out why in Season 2.


----------



## PercyD (Mar 29, 2020)

HunterSkunk said:


> First of all, I find it funny that you say this on the Furry themed forum of all places. Here, no one is truly Human.
> 
> Second of all, I feel like everyone forgets that Humans are in fact animals. Not to say I don't disagree with your point on men (or anyone in general) controlling themselves, I just feel like it might be wrong to say that Humans feel different things from every other species when in reality, all species on Earth feel similar emotions and feelings.


The issue here is that people make the excuse of their "urges" to do whatever they want. The colloquial happens to be "acting like an animal" and, even the furry community, they want to use that as an excuse to do whatever they want.

Also, yea, human beings are animals.  However, human beings dont have claws and teeth like carnivores.  They dont have the instinct to kill (other humans). Thats the large difference.

If a human decides to kill, maim, or any thing else its not because of an "urge". Its because of a (selfish) choice. 

Back to Beaststars, I feel like this anime speaks directly to this issue. Just because you have urges,  it doesn't give you license to act on them as and hurt other people. Its kinda extreme in this case, carnivores need meat to survive, but your sexual desires arent any thing new nor novel. Don't be an asshole (don't chew on your date).


----------



## Nihles (Apr 1, 2020)

PercyD said:


> The issue here is that people make the excuse of their "urges" to do whatever they want. The colloquial happens to be "acting like an animal" and, even the furry community, they want to use that as an excuse to do whatever they want.
> 
> Also, yea, human beings are animals.  However, human beings dont have claws and teeth like carnivores.  They dont have the instinct to kill (other humans). Thats the large difference.
> 
> ...


That's kind of what I like about it not being direct connection. Sex =/= eating herbivores, obviously, but Legoshi's struggles (and all the other characters) do feel really human, despite them all being animals. By setting it into this extreme world, we can draw our own allegories without necessarily transcribing all our original biases. Not to nitpick though, do the predators have to eat meat? From the scene in the cafeteria, I get the impression that most of the underclassmen predators get all their nutrition from non-meat. They're effectively vegetarian until they visit the Black Market. I could be wrong though.

Thanks for the extra context @Angelcakes ! I had no idea about the social divide. Also thanks for the context on what on Earth that side plot with Legom was. I was so confused >w< I still don't know what it adds to the whole story, but at least it has a strong personal significance for someone.


----------



## PercyD (Apr 2, 2020)

Nihles said:


> That's kind of what I like about it not being direct connection. Sex =/= eating herbivores, obviously, but Legoshi's struggles (and all the other characters) do feel really human, despite them all being animals. By setting it into this extreme world, we can draw our own allegories without necessarily transcribing all our original biases. Not to nitpick though, do the predators have to eat meat? From the scene in the cafeteria, I get the impression that most of the underclassmen predators get all their nutrition from non-meat. They're effectively vegetarian until they visit the Black Market. I could be wrong though.
> ...


Carnivores cannot survive without meat, normally. You even see in the show that all the carnivores who don't eat meat are kinda gangly.
The ones that aren't gangly and don't eat meat are already omnivores- like the (dogs) Legogo stays with. Or the panda, who has evovled to eat grass basically. I feel like that tiger ate that llamma.
And I look at legogo with Haru and I'm just like "Bro, I have the same feelings around banhmi sandwiches. I'm not sure..."

I agree with you though. This show has a clear nuance that I think some people from the audience don't realize. It's the same thing with Zootopia. --Everyone wanted to do a 1-to-1 comparison with racism between the herbavores and the carnivores but it just doesn't work. Minorities are not armed with claws, teeth, and other murder weapons to prey upon the gentry. To imply such is actually quite racist. In fact, the threat from minorities that the gentry feels is *not *part of the 'natural order of things'. Actually, this bias has been used to justify horrendous things, and it's really insulting and misguided to try to do a 1-to-1 comparison.

Within this universe meanwhile, Herbavores have a right to be frightened, concerned, and I don't even think 'bigotry' is the word to use here. Biased? Cautious? Everyone literally has weapons attached to them at all times...!


----------



## Arnak (Apr 2, 2020)

Even though I have not watched the show yet (I don't have Netflix) i can kinda relate to the struggle of discovering one's self. You have all these feelings and thoughts you can't explain... Im sorta messed up because I couldn't talk to anyone my age about anything because I felt I'd be made fun of (WHICH I WAS!!!!) I felt a bit like legosi (though I've never fallen in love, ever) 

I'm just going to shut up and leave before I get "yelled" at... Highschool students are fucking mean.


----------



## Arnak (Apr 2, 2020)

Also, the only Sona of mine that would fit in would be Ricky... But I think he'd just end up being a male Juno... Shutting up...


----------



## Nihles (Apr 25, 2020)

PercyD said:


> Carnivores cannot survive without meat, normally. You even see in the show that all the carnivores who don't eat meat are kinda gangly.
> The ones that aren't gangly and don't eat meat are already omnivores- like the (dogs) Legogo stays with. Or the panda, who has evovled to eat grass basically. I feel like that tiger ate that llamma.
> And I look at legogo with Haru and I'm just like "Bro, I have the same feelings around banhmi sandwiches. I'm not sure..."
> 
> ...


Agreed. 100%
Zootopia *tried* to have a message about how racism is bad and failed, hard. x(
If anything it kinda proved the opposite point.

And hmmm...I didn't notice that about the herbivores/omnivores being gangly. I'll look for it on my next rewatch.

 I had always wondered who it was that ate Tem.  Obviously, it's left ambiguous on purpose, but. Bill seems the most likely candidate, of the named characters. thank you.


----------



## Foxy Emy (Apr 25, 2020)

This show was great! I can't wait for next season!

And yeah! You are right! It is very nuanced in a way that more kid directed shows/movies (like Zootopia) can't be.

And it's discussion of black market meat has a lot a political subtext, too. It is a great allegory for pretty much any evil considered necessary to maintain a civil society (prison, capital punishment, war, torture, etc.).

In the type of society portrayed. Meat would be the hot button black market drug, simultaneously loved and despised.

And don't get be started on the broke guy selling his fingers to afford his next meal.

*EDIT:* The depiction of the drama club was scary accurate to my experiences in theater. A place where all sorts of people come together and cooperate (at least on the surface... The show must go on) but everyone has their own drama they bring with them from outside the group as well.


----------



## Nihles (Apr 25, 2020)

I loved that scene with the homeless guy selling his fingers. It was so creepy and yet rang so true.

I think there is also some subtext about social/economic inequality there too...


----------



## PercyD (Apr 25, 2020)

Nihles said:


> Agreed. 100%
> Zootopia *tried* to have a message about how racism is bad and failed, hard. x(
> If anything it kinda proved the opposite point.
> 
> ...


I don't think Zootopia had a message about racism. It was just that thats the thing people took away from it, and it's just like "...no."

I feel like Beaststars actually took the plot from Zootopia and took it to it's logical conclusion. Zootopia tried to skirt by by saying the carnivores were surviving off of fish. >u>
Nah bruh... 

I would say that Bojack even. Carnivores were still eating meat, but it seemed like less evolved animals were used as meat...? i.e. that chicken episode. I think out of the 3, Bojack is the most dark with how they handled it.


----------



## Nihles (Apr 25, 2020)

I'm pretty sure that chicken episode of Bojack was written specifically to troll the people who were thinking too hard/asking silly questions about the 'logic' of a slapstick world. They were answering questions that had not been asked, lol


----------



## PercyD (Apr 25, 2020)

Nihles said:


> I'm pretty sure that chicken episode of Bojack was written specifically to troll the people who were thinking too hard/asking silly questions about the 'logic' of a slapstick world. They were answering questions that had not been asked, lol


Hard thinking or not, these are questions that must be answered. oAo


----------



## Nihles (Apr 25, 2020)

Rofl. Everyone I have talked to about it says that the chicken episode is either one of the show's strongest, or one of it's worst, episodes. No fans seem to be indifferent towards it. I'm in the camp of loving the idiocy and satire in it.


----------



## Thatch (Apr 30, 2020)

PercyD said:


> I don't think Zootopia had a message about racism. It was just that thats the thing people took away from it, and it's just like "...no."
> 
> I feel like Beaststars actually took the plot from Zootopia and took it to it's logical conclusion. Zootopia tried to skirt by by saying the carnivores were surviving off of fish. >u>
> Nah bruh...



I feel you're missing the point that in Zootopia, it was about how lingering prejudices easily surface with the tiniest nudge. Also "So there's a them now". You know, actual society stuff. Not that it did it brilliantly, but it's there.

Beaststars is just "look it's just like 20th century AND YET SOMEHOW PREDATION IS A THING THAT EXISTS". Because we all know our current sociaty was built around the goddamn Purge.
It's one of those stupid shows that do a thing that is inherently illogical, then goes through plot contortions trying to stick with it when it clearly stops making sense, i.e. anything that takes place outside of the school.
But I guess it doesn't matter that much, since you can barely focus on the nonsensical world-building while the dialogue makes you cringe so hard your bones start cracking.


----------



## PercyD (Apr 30, 2020)

Thatch said:


> I feel you're missing the point that in Zootopia, it was about how lingering prejudices easily surface with the tiniest nudge. Also "So there's a them now". You know, actual society stuff. Not that it did it brilliantly, but it's there.
> 
> Beaststars is just "look it's just like 20th century AND YET SOMEHOW PREDATION IS A THING THAT EXISTS". Because we all know our current sociaty was built around the goddamn Purge.
> It's one of those stupid shows that do a thing that is inherently illogical, then goes through plot contortions trying to stick with it when it clearly stops making sense, i.e. anything that takes place outside of the school.
> But I guess it doesn't matter that much, since you can barely focus on the nonsensical world-building while the dialogue makes you cringe so hard your bones start cracking.


I don't think I am. Prejudice is not the same as racism. Racism in America is  a system used to oppress and profiteer off of minority groups. It's not and will never be a one-to-one comparison. Carnivores are actually capable of killing herbivores. Minorities do not and will not ever prose that risk to the gentry. In fact, it's racist to try to make that comparison. Zootopia doesn't do this, but people are trying to apply that distinction. -A distinction, by the way, that is incredibly incorrect-- thats the point I am making.

I'll take it further and say no. Beaststars is not trying to make that distinction either. It's just people incorrectly applying it. Also, we are in the 21st century now. The 20th century is like, WWI and the Charleston.
I'm not sure where the rest of your post is going at this point. Are you just... trying to communicate with me that you don't like Beaststars...? I mean, thats fine if you don't. But I don't see a point in communicating that with me, on a thread thats for talking about Beaststars analysis. Great for you that you are able to tell me you don't like a thing...?


----------



## Thatch (May 1, 2020)

PercyD said:


> I don't think I am. Prejudice is not the same as racism. Racism in America is  a system used to oppress and profiteer off of minority groups. It's not and will never be a one-to-one comparison. Carnivores are actually capable of killing herbivores. Minorities do not and will not ever prose that risk to the gentry. In fact, it's racist to try to make that comparison. Zootopia doesn't do this, but people are trying to apply that distinction. -A distinction, by the way, that is incredibly incorrect-- thats the point I am making.


You are correct, Zootopia is not talking about the kind of systemic, institutionalised racism prevalent in USA. But that's merely the logical conclusion of letting racism run rampant, not what racism is. Racism is a type of prejudice. And it doesn't have to be negative either. "All asians are good at math" is racism too. Meanwhile, Zootopia talked about a society which considered itself free of prejudice (as per the school play opening) only to show that prejudice is very much alive and only waiting on a trigger. Very much like America declared itself "not racist anymore" once Obama got elected. How did that work out.


PercyD said:


> I'll take it further and say no. Beaststars is not trying to make that distinction either. It's just people incorrectly applying it. Also, we are in the 21st century now. The 20th century is like, WWI and the Charleston.


The way they dress, communicate, the architecture ect., it is pretty 50-60s to me. 20th century.


PercyD said:


> I'm not sure where the rest of your post is going at this point. Are you just... trying to communicate with me that you don't like Beaststars...? I mean, thats fine if you don't. But I don't see a point in communicating that with me, on a thread thats for talking about Beaststars analysis. Great for you that you are able to tell me you don't like a thing...?


No, I don't like beaststars. I was referring to the "logical conlcusion" part, i.e. the there is no logical basis for the conclusion beaststars arrives at. It's just... "cool stuff" mushed together with no rime or reason other than "is edgy". That's in contrast to Zootopia, which built a world that's actually meant to work, then runs with it.


----------



## PercyD (May 2, 2020)

Thatch said:


> You are correct, Zootopia is not talking about the kind of systemic, institutionalised racism prevalent in USA. But that's merely the logical conclusion of letting racism run rampant, not what racism is. Racism is a type of prejudice. And it doesn't have to be negative either. "All asians are good at math" is racism too. Meanwhile, Zootopia talked about a society which considered itself free of prejudice (as per the school play opening) only to show that prejudice is very much alive and only waiting on a trigger. Very much like America declared itself "not racist anymore" once Obama got elected. How did that work out.


I've got to disagree. Racism isn't just 'prejudice'. And, if you agree that Zootopia and Beaststars do not contain one-to-one comparisons, then you can't say in the same breath that it's the "logical conclusion" of letting racism run rampant.
I don't really want to talk about what racism is any more at this point. This conversation makes me tired, mostly because racism is not just some mental exercise for me. I live in this system, and it's exhausting. Just know that it's not applicable to Zootopia or Beaststars, since I've rehashed those talking points a couple times on this thread, twice with you. Moving on-



Thatch said:


> The way they dress, communicate, the architecture ect., it is pretty 50-60s to me. 20th century.



Swing dances and big band aesthetic, 50s and 60s is... I guess? However, if 50's-60's aesthetic  is not your cup of tea, thats okay. It's just... not analysis?



Thatch said:


> No, I don't like beaststars. I was referring to the "logical conlcusion" part, i.e. the there is no logical basis for the conclusion beaststars arrives at. It's just... "cool stuff" mushed together with no rime or reason other than "is edgy". That's in contrast to Zootopia, which built a world that's actually meant to work, then runs with it.


Here we go, the analysis.
It's the "logical conclusion" because Beaststars actually addresses what Zootopia does not: which is, how to handle a society where the minority requires meat to survive.

In Zootopia, they just say that all the carnivores eat fish and other meat-products that aren't sentient in this universe. It's Disney, so they are not going to straight on approach the topic. This approach is not a bad treatment of the subject, per say. My statement on this is just a valid observation.

In the contrary, in Beaststars, they straight on acknowledge that carnivores need meat whether it had been sentient or not. The meat Beaststars' carnivores need must come from herbivores- thats the logical conclusion I'm referring to here.
This treatment is reasonable and it makes sense. However, if that seems to be only dark edge fluff to you, you're entitled to that opinion as well. I just will submit to you my definition of actual "edgy stuff".
Primarily, excessively edgy shit to me is death and violence to femme characters for the sole purpose of giving some male character an arc. Usually it's some woman who has to suffer or die for any thing to be done. Thats actual unnecessary edge.

Further, I'll give Beaststars points for not doing that with Haru. She gets kidnapped because she is small. Her suffering is for her own development. Legogogogogo is only there to get her out of a horrible situation so she can survive to complete her arc. I actually like the treatment for Haru's character in general. It's a fresh bit of air for me.


----------



## Thatch (May 2, 2020)

PercyD said:


> I've got to disagree. Racism isn't just 'prejudice'. And, if you agree that Zootopia and Beaststars do not contain one-to-one comparisons, then you can't say in the same breath that it's the "logical conclusion" of letting racism run rampant.
> I don't really want to talk about what racism is any more at this point. This conversation makes me tired, mostly because racism is not just some mental exercise for me. I live in this system, and it's exhausting. Just know that it's not applicable to Zootopia or Beaststars, since I've rehashed those talking points a couple times on this thread, twice with you. Moving on-


Ok, you misunderstood me there. The situation in the USA is the logical conlusion of racism running rampant, not Zootopia/Beastars.




PercyD said:


> Swing dances and big band aesthetic, 50s and 60s is... I guess? However, if 50's-60's aesthetic  is not your cup of tea, thats okay. It's just... not analysis?


That wasn't criticising it being 20th century specifically, I was pointing out that it's OUR, human, 20th century.



PercyD said:


> Here we go, the analysis.
> It's the "logical conclusion" because Beaststars actually addresses what Zootopia does not: which is, how to handle a society where the minority requires meat to survive.
> 
> In Zootopia, they just say that all the carnivores eat fish and other meat-products that aren't sentient in this universe. It's Disney, so they are not going to straight on approach the topic. This approach is not a bad treatment of the subject, per say. My statement on this is just a valid observation.



Last I checked WE, humans, eat meat. We don't eat people. We eat "fish and other meat-products that aren't sentient in this universe". It's not some kind of unrealistic concept. Furthermore, what the movie seems to imply is that before they "civilised" they DID eat eachother. So they stopped eating eachother before they got to building a society. That sounds like a logical progression. In contrast to Beaststars:




PercyD said:


> In the contrary, in Beaststars, they straight on acknowledge that carnivores need meat whether it had been sentient or not. The meat Beaststars' carnivores need must come from herbivores- thats the logical conclusion I'm referring to here.
> This treatment is reasonable and it makes sense. However, if that seems to be only dark edge fluff to you, you're entitled to that opinion as well. I just will submit to you my definition of actual "edgy stuff".
> Primarily, excessively edgy shit to me is death and violence to femme characters for the sole purpose of giving some male character an arc. Usually it's some woman who has to suffer or die for any thing to be done. Thats actual unnecessary edge.



What I was getting at, is that you cannot get the end product of "20th century but anthro" by starting at "people eat eachother". And that's what Beaststars is, a nearly verbatim illustration of roughly mid-20th century life, just with anthros. Our human world is what it is because we have certain social standard, and not predating on other people is one of the crucial aspects of that. In other words, you do not get 20th century if everyone's murdering and eating eachother. Instead, you get ISIS :V
That's why I'm praising Zootopia. It's not just our human world but with anthros, it's it's own world that formed out of it's own first principles. Beaststars premise contradicts it's conclusion.



PercyD said:


> Further, I'll give Beaststars points for not doing that with Haru. She gets kidnapped because she is small. Her suffering is for her own development. Legogogogogo is only there to get her out of a horrible situation so she can survive to complete her arc. I actually like the treatment for Haru's character in general. It's a fresh bit of air for me.




BTW, Haru - "My body wants to enter your mouth" (or however that went, paraphrasing from memory). Haru is not a character, she's is a unfortunate anime/manga stereotype. One of the perverted ones.


----------



## PercyD (May 2, 2020)

Thatch said:


> Last I checked WE, humans, eat meat. We don't eat people. We eat "fish and other meat-products that aren't sentient in this universe". It's not some kind of unrealistic concept. Furthermore, what the movie seems to imply is that before they "civilised" they DID eat eachother. So they stopped eating eachother before they got to building a society. That sounds like a logical progression. In contrast to Beaststars:


I'm not really getting your point here. Mostly because I don't see a reason to compare Zootopia/Beaststars to our world. at all. Human beings are also the only sentient civilized species on Earth. Theres not something side by side to compare here. 



Thatch said:


> What I was getting at, is that you cannot get the end product of "20th century but anthro" by starting at "people eat eachother". And that's what Beaststars is, a nearly verbatim illustration of roughly mid-20th century life, just with anthros. Our human world is what it is because we have certain social standard, and not predating on other people is one of the crucial aspects of that. In other words, you do not get 20th century if everyone's murdering and eating eachother. Instead, you get ISIS :V


I'm gonna ignore that ISIS bit because this isn't a political conversation. Plus its irrelevant, like I said. You can't make the same comparisons of inter-species relationships because there is none. Besides, I want to discuss stupid furry animal people. K thx.



Thatch said:


> That's why I'm praising Zootopia. It's not just our human world but with anthros, it's it's own world that formed out of it's own first principles. Beaststars premise contradicts it's conclusion.



Any way, I would have to disagree. In Beaststars, eating other sentient creatures is also not allowed. I dunno if this is because the anime wasn't your cup of tea, so you didn't watch it all the way through, but it wasn't to be taken lightly that someone was eaten. 
What I am praising Beaststars for is doing a better job at acknowledging that carnivores cannot survive without meat, and exploring that topic more indepth. I feel it adds to the world, especially when they met the homeless goat man selling his own fingers. 


Thatch said:


> BTW, Haru - "My body wants to enter your mouth" (or however that went, paraphrasing from memory). Haru is not a character, she's is a unfortunate anime/manga stereotype. One of the perverted ones.



No sir or madam, Haru is _my perverted character-_

Frankly, I would go further to say she isn't an anime/manga sterotype. The sterotype would be some moe girl whose sexuality doesn't belong to her. With Haru, for better or for worse, _she owns her body and her experience. _Maybe you don't get it because you have a different life experience. Thats alright, but... I'm sick of puppy-girlfriend characters whose the main protag can fuck. It makes me even wonder if you have even _watched_ anime, lately... Haru's pretty subversive as a femme character. She actually has agency, a personality, a backstory, goals and aspirations. 

She hits all the notes of what would be a male anime protag in other contexts.


----------

