# Sonic Guidelines for Mature/Adult Images



## Sciggles (Feb 8, 2012)

**PLEASE NOTE**
    - I am by no means a decent Sonic artist, I have tried to keep close to the original style as possible. You do not have to draw it the same way/style I do. What is important is the text and guidelines. I figured a drawing might help as well. 

- Please also note that this does not affect General-rated Sonic art -- only art rated Mature and Adult. 

We understand that it has become an issue regarding Sonic art, so I drafted up a guideline. I worked it out with the other admins on what we look for with Mature/Adult Sonic art. This is based off of the very few adult Sonic characters I could find, as well as examples by other artists (which I will link below).

First let me say that if you draw Mature/Adult Sonic art in your own style (instead of canon) it will follow the normal guidelines for Furry art instead of Sonic rules. We will also be making a diagram for that very soon.

We look for things which would qualify the character to more mature ("aged up") compared to how they appear in the games and on the show. 

-Head and eyes appear smaller in proportion compared 
-Torso becomes smaller in proportion and legs become more elongated. 
-Legs need to be longer than the arms.
-For Females: Curves (hourglass) to the torso unless heavyset. Breast size IS NOT a factor in this as even minors develop breasts.
-For Males: Torso becomes less rounded, lengthier and defined. 
-Feet and hands become more proportionate to the body, not as large as they appear on original.

These are guidelines to hopefully bring a better understanding to users AND admins. There will still be images that will be borderline, and this will not work for every style and for every artist. We will leave those issues  to the discretion of the administration, and we ask that you work with us on those issues. 

If anything has been wrongfully deleted we sincerely apologize, as we understand that he rule has been vague. We hope the guidelines will help to keep things enforced equally, and we're working to bring more clarity to the rules.

Samples of what we consider properly aged up sonic art
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4007644
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5456025/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4270359
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4025268
http://jc303.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3bejzh (compared with child image http://jc303.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d31vlgg)
http://images.radcity.net/5942/2684497.gif


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## Devious Bane (Feb 8, 2012)

Sciggles said:


> First let me say that if you draw Mature/Adult Sonic art in your own style (instead of canon) it will follow the normal guidelines for Furry art instead of Sonic rules. We will also be making a diagram for that very soon.


It is to my understanding that all art posted to the mainsite follow the same, specific rules.
Some things I'd like to have filled here as it seems open for interpretation:
1. "_It is to my..._" Is this still the case, something I missed, or is FA developing guidelines for "canon" art?
2. "_We will be making a diagram..._" For the guidelines or as to what being in "canon" means?
3. If there isn't any specific guidelines to "canon" art, what significance is there to labeling the differences between "canon" and "styled after"?


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## Shad (Feb 8, 2012)

So basically the tl;dr version of this is: If it's drawn non-canon, it's fine and dandy so long as it doesn't look like a kid. If it's drawn canon, it's gonna get deleted regardless.



Sciggles said:


> -For Females: Curves (hourglass) to the torso unless heavyset. Breast size IS NOT a factor in this as even minors develop breasts.
> -For Males: Torso becomes less rounded, lengthier and defined.


So it's not OK to have a fat Sonic, but it's OK to have a fat Amy? Talk about sexist. :v


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## CannonFodder (Feb 8, 2012)

While this could be worded better, I can't find much to disagree with cause the fact that people try and skirt the cub ban is a major problem.





Shad said:


> So basically the tl;dr version of this is: If it's  drawn non-canon, it's fine and dandy so long as it doesn't look like a  kid. If it's drawn canon, it's gonna get deleted regardless.


 Excellent summary.

Also knowing the fact that this thread is going to stir up the cub porn debate again regardless, even though it's deader than a zombie, with people claiming that the staff is against free speech, godwin's, and related severally overdone arguments-


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## Volkodav (Feb 8, 2012)

this is loophole central, bro. 

I can get around all of that with four words.
"My style is chibi"


EDIT: Not to mention I've reported cub porn in which the artist had the characters age in plain view on their profile and I was told by an admin that the characters were "aged up".
"Aged up" could be anything from having a damn 5-o-clock-shadow to pubes to... length of arms or legs? As if there weren't 6 foot tall kids in like grade 6 lol


Anything to say on that?


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## Ifus (Feb 8, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whjVucqw-wo I think you should take a look at this video. In the beginning you can see an elderly hedgehog come up to Sonic. He has the same proportions as every other character pictured. I think it's just the cartoon style, and not the fact you have to lengthen them to age them. Maybe there's a different way to make them look more aged?


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## Smelge (Feb 8, 2012)

Ifus said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whjVucqw-wo  I think you should take a look at this video. In the beginning you can  see an elderly hedgehog come up to Sonic. He has the same proportions as  every other character pictured. I think it's just the cartoon style,  and not the fact you have to lengthen them to age them. Maybe there's a  different way to make them look more aged?



What you are saying, is that we should push for a blanket-ban on all sonic art, to avoid confusion?

I second this motion!


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## Ifus (Feb 8, 2012)

No, I definitely wouldn't say that. I love general audience Sonic art. I love the series! I just was asking the poster to consider the fact people could be drawing from that cartoon's era, and not Sonic Adventure (and older games). It might be more fair that way.


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## Ifus (Feb 8, 2012)

But if it's obviously cub looking... yeah... >> It's a tough call to make all in all.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 8, 2012)

Ifus said:


> No, I definitely wouldn't say that. I love general audience Sonic art. I love the series! I just was asking the poster to consider the fact people could be drawing from that cartoon's era, and not Sonic Adventure (and older games). It might be more fair that way.


Smelge was yanking your chain.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2012)

What I dont get is tails porn. Tails is like what 11? And Ive seen him stuffed with taur dick on the front page till I could bleed out my ass.


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## oneandonly (Feb 8, 2012)

Is this clearing anything up, or is this just so admins have a guideline as to what to ban or what not to?


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## LizardKing (Feb 8, 2012)

So what about things that look similar in proportion to Sonic? For example, Mickey Mouse, or some pokÃ©mon or digimon? 

Also isn't Shadow about 50 years old or something? He looks pretty much identical to Sonic. Would he need to be drawn the same way?


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## CannonFodder (Feb 8, 2012)

oneandonly said:


> Is this clearing anything up, or is this just so admins have a guideline as to what to ban or what not to?


It's just for the admins to have a guideline, cause a ungodly number of people try and get away with drawing underage characters by claiming countless numerous excuses.


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 8, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> It's just for the admins to have a guideline, cause a ungodly number of people try and get away with drawing underage characters by claiming countless numerous excuses.




BAAAW ITS MY STYLE


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## Aetius (Feb 8, 2012)

I believe all sonic art should be purged and never shown the light of day again.


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## Shireton (Feb 8, 2012)

Why has so much clearly mature Sonic porn been removed?


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## CannonFodder (Feb 8, 2012)

Is it just me or could this problem be solved if the admins just searched sonic with safe search off and went on a frag spree?


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

apparently they are considering a move on digimon and pokemon as well, and might even hit feral art as well, and we cannot complain at all. and also Sciggles and neer are letting us use their site if we have problems we could just leave. It's not like we have much of an opinion on the matter. yet alot of good, and alot of good points have been sprawling up about it I believe.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Bluflare said:


> apparently they are considering a move on digimon and pokemon as well, *and might even hit feral art as wel*l,


*HELL YEAH!*

But in all seriousness, it was only a matter of time until the move on sonic artwork was done, because it's not even close to being rationalized away.  The reason being they even say how old sonic is and that, they could only hide behind "but it's my style" for so long.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> It's just for the admins to have a guideline, cause a ungodly number of people try and get away with drawing underage characters by claiming countless numerous excuses.



It's more than that. We really do want to extend a hand and try help along understanding of how we go about tackling enforcement of under-age characters. It has to be frustrating for many users to not know too much one way or another about how to go about things like aging up, and what we specifically look for. Perhaps by doing something like this we can get people to have a clearer understanding.


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> It's more than that. We really do want to extend a hand and try help along understanding of how we go about tackling enforcement of under-age characters. It has to be frustrating for many users to not know too much one way or another about how to go about things like aging up, and what we specifically look for. Perhaps by doing something like this we can get people to have a clearer understanding.


I don't like sonic art much at all, but wouldn't it be good to know that it would be fair to double-triple check everywhere again I mean I would make sure that the facts are clear for *me *to understand first before telling it to the world or just sciggles telling everyone on her page which I believe is sort of the wrong way of doing period.


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## Shireton (Feb 9, 2012)

Digimon won't get touched, or else Dragoneer couldn't post all his comissions.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

Bluflare said:


> I don't like sonic art much at all, but wouldn't it be good to know that it would be fair to double-triple check everywhere again I mean I would make sure that the facts are clear for *me *to understand first before telling it to the world or just sciggles telling everyone on her page which I believe is sort of the wrong way of doing period.



I'll be honest I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here. :C



Bluflare said:


> apparently they are considering a move on  digimon and pokemon as well, and might even hit feral art as well, and  we cannot complain at all. and also Sciggles and neer are letting us use  their site if we have problems we could just leave. It's not like we  have much of an opinion on the matter. yet alot of good, and alot of  good points have been sprawling up about it I believe.



I am curious where you heard this bit of false information. We are not considering a move on digimon or pokemon or feral art at this time.


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> I'll be honest I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here. :C
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious where you heard this bit of false information. We are not considering a move on digimon or pokemon or feral art at this time.


lol actually I was one of the lucky ones to catch this info before sciggles deleted it from her submission page. Apparently you guys don't know how to tell people how to keep your projects hush hush.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

Bluflare said:


> lol actually I was one of the lucky ones to catch this info before sciggles deleted it from her submission page. Apparently you guys don't know how to tell people how to keep your projects hush hush.



Be careful of your sources of "information". Some people for some reason really enjoy crafting fake documents, and editing pictures for what ever reason. In the mean time lets keep this discussion here on track with what the thread is about and not hearsay, shall we?



LizardKing said:


> So what about things that look similar in  proportion to Sonic? For example, Mickey Mouse, or some pokÃ©mon or  digimon?
> 
> Also isn't Shadow about 50 years old or something? He looks pretty much  identical to Sonic. Would he need to be drawn the same way?



It really comes down to is there an established age? That's what we need to keep in mind. We are trying to ensure that we don't have content that will make payment processors throw a fit like Alert-Pay did. It puts the site and staff in a very awkward position and creates an unfortunate hassle for many users.

 Something all users should keep in mind is context. Context is why we have to see an attempt to age up Sonic Characters. The creators contextually made it so that they bounce around ages 16 and under for many of them. With one as young as 11. In the eyes of the outside world those are children/underage. So, age them up? How? Obviously you need to work with the proportions and a basic understanding of anatomy. Take this concept and apply it to all other characters out there that have context attaching them to ages that make them under age. Same thing applies. Age it up using anatomy and preportions.

Hypothetically if Tiny Toons were the only series with those characters we'd require users to age them up for adult/mature submissions. That means drawing them as older characters and finding a way to work with the anatomy to do such. If Micky Mouse had a known child-form you'd be required to avoid that form entirely and drawn in context that reflects an older body therefore an older character.

Now lets say hypothetically you have Rugrats, and they came out with series that has all of them as adults. Obviously you don't need to draw them older than they are as as adults to pass muster. But you couldn't draw the Rugrats as they were originally in adult/mature themes. Does this help clear things up?


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## IS (Feb 9, 2012)

Since we can talk like grown adults (considering the subject, no pun intended) here Sciggles, just hear me out. I know I didn't handle the situation with my account very well, what with my "call out" post and the post of the Sonic picture with the toy, and I apologize for that.

Now, on to the issue at hand: you told me I had to remove _all, not just some, but all_ adult Sonic images within 3 days from my account, and what I was forced to remove were pictures like these, with clear body definitions to the characters who look "aged up," according to your definition:

*All are NSFW*
http://i.imgur.com/kuluM.png
http://i.imgur.com/v5YvO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fHHOB.png
http://i.imgur.com/83paW.png

By these examples of what my gallery contained, and by your definitions, why was I told that I needed to take down all of my art that was NOT general Sonic art, or else my gallery would be wiped? I have always drawn my Sonic art with 18+ in mind, and I don't see why it has come off to you looking anywhere near cub art. I keep with a certain style, but again, I have never intended for any of the characters I posted to my FA account to look or be underage. Please, help me to seriously understand the logic behind the eventual wiping of my gallery.


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Be careful of your sources of "information". Some people for some reason really enjoy crafting fake documents, and editing pictures for what ever reason. In the mean time lets keep this discussion here on track with what the thread is about and not hearsay, shall we?


umm.. okay but I wouldn't make this fake yet alone I made a screengrab of this myself, so its not really hearsay, but actual typed words from the person herself, but understood back to the thread.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

IS said:


> Since we can talk like grown adults (considering the subject, no pun intended) here Sciggles, just hear me out. I know I didn't handle the situation with my account very well, what with my "call out" post and the post of the Sonic picture with the toy, and I apologize for that.
> 
> Now, on to the issue at hand: you told me I had to remove _all, not just some, but all_ adult Sonic images within 3 days from my account, and what I was forced to remove were pictures like these, with clear body definitions to the characters who look "aged up," according to your definition:
> 
> ...




Again I apologize for how the situation was handled, and I wish that it was handled better on both sides. You are the reason I pushed to get this thing out so that users /and/ admins could be on the same page. It does get difficult when the rule is vague and one admin says one this is allowed while another admin says its not. So being new, one of your images was reported, and I thought that it indeed looked like she appeared the same as in game/show and removed it and sent you a warning. When it was removed I saw a gallery full of sonic porn and sent the other warning, I did not infact look through every image and I should have done a better inspection of your gallery, in turn I wish you would have questioned me more instead of posting my notes publicly...but I did learn from this and no not /all/ of your images should have been removed. 

I hope this comes off right as I am currently VERY tired and heading to bed now. IS, if you want to discuss things with me further you are free to IM me if you'd like. But again, I do apologize.


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Sciggles said:


> Again I apologize for how the situation was handled, and I wish that it was handled better on both sides. You are the reason I pushed to get this thing out so that users /and/ admins could be on the same page. It does get difficult when the rule is vague and one admin says one this is allowed while another admin says its not. So being new, one of your images was reported, and I thought that it indeed looked like she appeared the same as in game/show and removed it and sent you a warning.* When it was removed I saw a gallery full of sonic porn and sent the other warning, I did not infact look through every image and I should have done a better inspection of your gallery,* in turn I wish you would have questioned me more instead of posting my notes publicly...but I did learn from this and no not /all/ of your images should have been removed.



Now this I believe all the way now at least you admitted your mistake and what not and apologized the right way. Finally some truth. : D


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## Devious Bane (Feb 9, 2012)

Okay, I just figured out what Sciggs was poorly trying to state in the original post.

_If the "canon" style is of a underaged character, it may not be porn/adult/mature-tagged unless it meets the proposed criteria which would allowed it to be considered "non-canon"._

This is in relation to the Cub Porn Ban, in regards to "If it looks underage, it is".


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> Okay, I just figured out what Sciggs was poorly trying to state in the original post.
> 
> _If the "canon" style is of a underaged character, it may not be porn/adult/mature-tagged unless it meets the proposed criteria which would allowed it to be considered "non-canon"._
> 
> This is in relation to the Cub Porn Ban, in regards to "If it looks underage, it is".


actual question though why do this shit now? inb4 some kinda excuse from some kinda dimension.


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## Devious Bane (Feb 9, 2012)

I have an idea.
Let's add more regulations while we're still struggling to enforce the current ones.


Bluflare said:


> actual question though why do this shit now? inb4 some kinda excuse from some kinda dimension.


A. Because no one ever cared enough to do it when it was most reasonable.
B. Otters. Got tired of blaming each other for not getting stuff done.
C. Failed attempt at proving the administration is doing its job right.
D. All of the above and some left for us to assume.

See Also: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7369414


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> I have an idea.
> Let's add more regulations while we're still struggling to enforce the current ones.
> 
> A. Because no one ever cared enough to do it when it was most reasonable.
> ...


 All sonic fans will flip there lids when tojyo leaves FA.


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## Devious Bane (Feb 9, 2012)

Going to be watching with a bag of popcorn and can of Mountain Dew.


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> Going to be watching with a bag of popcorn and can of Mountain Dew.


lol screw the dew I bought the next best thing BEER!! oh wait let me check the AUP to see if I missed something about bringing beer with popcorn nah not seeing nothing right now, but lets just hope it doesn't show up for now.

serious note: she actually did skip/dodge, or quantum leaped over a good comment that should be brought to the admin team eyes.


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## Devious Bane (Feb 9, 2012)

But admitting that is a de-adminnable offense!


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

Clayton said:


> EDIT: Not to mention I've reported cub porn in which the artist had the characters age in plain view on their profile and I was told by an admin that the characters were "aged up".
> "Aged up" could be anything from having a damn 5-o-clock-shadow to pubes to... length of arms or legs? As if there weren't 6 foot tall kids in like grade 6 lol
> 
> 
> Anything to say on that?


I do the ULTIMATE COUNTER SUPER FINISHER!!! (chronologically over the age of 18 ) gets them everytime.


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## Devious Bane (Feb 9, 2012)

It simply boils down to the line between "looking" and "being". Everyone has their own view of what they deem is "of age".


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## rodox_video (Feb 9, 2012)

Sonic porn has been around since well, since there's been an internet. I remember Yerf banning all vaguely Sonic-like artwork back in the day because Sega Of America sent them a nasty letter, but most site owners have been pretty hands-off about it ever since.  

It usually gets most of the reactions it gets because the mascot-like proportions of the characters can result in porno that looks odd even by furry standards, not because the characters may or may not be underage. In fact, nobody has ever really cared how old the Sonic characters were supposed to be until noises started being made during the start of the FA cub porn ban. 

People have been speculating that Sonic porn may be next after the cub porn ban for quite a while, but even that died down after a while. With no real decision from the administration one way or another, it looked like things were just going to stay the way they were. So what might have prompted this sudden action? Was it the (still developing) Tweaker incident?


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## Volkodav (Feb 9, 2012)

i miss the good old days when the cub porn ban was put int place and the rule stated "if it looks underage, it's not allowed"

*sighs dreamily*


now it's the robotic "ALL CHARACTERS DEPICTED ARE OVER THE AGE OF 18" aaahahahah


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## RyuuYouki (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Be careful of your sources of "information". Some people for some reason really enjoy crafting fake documents, and editing pictures for what ever reason. In the mean time lets keep this discussion here on track with what the thread is about and not hearsay, shall we?



You admins REALLY need to keep better track of one another.  I too saw Scigg's say they were looking into poke/digi/feral as well.  Given the records held by many of the admins of this site I should of capped it on impulse, but I see someone else did so no worries.  Maybe you should be more careful about what you blinded defend :/


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## sandfox (Feb 9, 2012)

Has anyone noticed that the only other staff defending Sciggles on this are Dragoneer and Trpdwarf?

lol none of the other staff want to touch this

oh but Sciggles is listening you guys:



			
				sciggles said:
			
		

> most of the people are simply complaining because I am Sciggles, no other reason than that X3



http://scigglicious.tumblr.com/post/17287974721/hootaloo-hootaloo-hootaloo


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

sandfox said:


> Has anyone noticed that the only other staff defending Sciggles on this are Dragoneer and Trpdwarf?
> lol none of the other staff want to touch this
> oh but Sciggles is listening you guys:
> http://scigglicious.tumblr.com/post/17287974721/hootaloo-hootaloo-hootaloo


It's cause it's a nuclear bomb of drama, and nobody wants to be in the blastwave.
For months now sonic artists have been getting away with drawing cub and now that they're specifically targeting this loophole they've gone critical.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

RyuuYouki said:


> You admins REALLY need to keep better track of one another.  I too saw Scigg's say they were looking into poke/digi/feral as well.  Given the records held by many of the admins of this site I should of capped it on impulse, but I see someone else did so no worries.  Maybe you should be more careful about what you blinded defend :/




I said it was something we needed to discuss further, what Blue was referring to was a FAKE comment screenshot made on lulz that says we were getting rid of it and be acting like I own the site.


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## Volkodav (Feb 9, 2012)

sandfox said:


> Has anyone noticed that the only other staff defending Sciggles on this are Dragoneer and Trpdwarf?
> 
> lol none of the other staff want to touch this
> 
> ...



has anybody noticed that it's sciggles inventing new rules and not the other admins?

or is sciggles being used as like a.. SWAT shield for rule-making.

EDIT: in b4 "well this isn't a rule"
The rules stated that if it looked underage, it couldn't be drawn in sexual situations. This is a rule loophole.
Look at Jesse and James. They fit these new "guidelines" but are around 17 y.o
Ash Ketchum fits the guidelines but is around the same age.
Hiccup from HTTYD is -18 if I recall correctly but still fits the guidelines

To say "it has long legs, smaller eyes and long arms" is botched. I dunno why the rule needed tweaking at all.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Clayton said:


> or is sciggles being used as like a.. SWAT shield for rule-making.


That's the more likely scenario.


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## Volkodav (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> That's the more likely scenario.


What a poor choice for one though. Use an admin that has been getting flaming shit flung at her repeatedly instead of an admin who don't ever get in the way.
Speaking of which, where did Browder go? He was a cool bro admin.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

Clayton said:


> has anybody noticed that it's sciggles inventing new rules and not the other admins?
> 
> or is sciggles being used as like a.. SWAT shield for rule-making.
> 
> ...



This is was discussed with other admins before it was posted, I didn't just invent it. Its a hard issue for us to handle from what I have been noticing. This is only a guide for sonic artists who draw canon style, not every piece of artwork. This was based off of what knowledge we knew and of course if we receive more knowledge it will be taken into consideration and some of this might change.


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## Volkodav (Feb 9, 2012)

Sciggles said:


> This is was discussed with other admins before it was posted, I didn't just invent it. Its a hard issue for us to handle from what I have been noticing. This is only a guide for sonic artists who draw canon style, not every piece of artwork. This was based off of what knowledge we knew and of course if we receive more knowledge it will be taken into consideration and some of this might change.


Intredasting. thank you for clearing it up


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

I believe the scenario that is more likely through observation of this thread is that Sciggles just wanted to help with clarity of the rules. She clearly admitted earlier she made a mistake with another user's gallery and just wanted to post some helpful guidelines so that people will understand what may get their art removed. This was something for admins to understand too.

Unfortunately, with the way things are of late with internet fear mongering and "oh God the children" I can see this going this way with more sites under restrictions from their government. 

I've drawn Sonic Styled characters in the past, you can see in my scraps gallery - but most of them have adult bodies vs toony noodle arm style. It was a passing interest and I barely did fanart. I think I only made a fanart of Rouge bat. To be honest, I am not really into the game, though I had watched the show for a while...but with meh. I had tried to be in the communities that involved the Sonic art style for some time -but one of my major turn offs were how many young kids wanted to do the internet nasty and some of the batshit artists that all they try to do is these hookups with other "popfur" artists by drawing porn for them so they can be some deluded superpower couple who probably have never met in their entire lives. It got so shallow, and I wanted to have more faith in my art than who I hooked up with (which is none of the net's business) but this is a big tangent than the original topic...

Whether or not I think the guidelines will help is just a personal opinion that no matter what you post - people will be unhappy. I personally am not for cub porn or whatnot but I really kinda hate how art has been restricted because of the pressure by money or another country's regulations. On DA they don't even allow aging up characters iirc. I remember an "Adult Lisa Simpson" being taken down. I'm sure it's because DA wants the advertisers and promotions coming their way. 

People pushing boundaries, and people having to set guidelines will always happen and always come to clash - it's just the way of life.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

^Well even though SOPA/ACTA got struck down TPP(Trans-pacific Partnership) is still here and that's enough of a reason for this decision.  Not to mention there's another bill that I can't remember what it's called that is basically designated for directly making sure that underage individuals don't look at pornography so that should be brought up as well.
TPP may be taken down as well, but I doubt a "think of the children" bill directly meant to keep kids from looking at porn will be axed as well.


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## AMWULF (Feb 9, 2012)

So does this apply for other cartoons, like My little pony porn
it IS a show geared towards children so im assuming all the ponies are underage?

or would that be considered too harsh?


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## Fay V (Feb 9, 2012)

AMWULF said:


> So does this apply for other cartoons, like My little pony porn
> it IS a show geared towards children so im assuming all the ponies are underage?
> 
> or would that be considered too harsh?



No this applies to sonic canon. Right now MLP is pretty straight forward. The known minors are spike and the cutiemark crusaders. 
The main cast do seem to be of age, they all have jobs and such and they're all the same build and proportions of the other ponies, some which have kids. 
So in the case of MLP don't draw them looking like the tiny ponies in class.

In many other shows you're given enough variance of style to understand what is a child and what isn't in terms of canon. With Tiny Toons, you can't draw them as kids, the adult versions are bugs bunny and such. 

The sonic style was extremely difficult to deal with, so a guide was made for users and admins.


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## Toxicko (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I had tried to be in the communities that involved the Sonic art style for some time -but one of my major turn offs were how many young kids wanted to do the internet nasty and some of the batshit artists that all they try to do is these hookups with other "popfur" artists by drawing porn for them so they can be some deluded superpower couple who probably have never met in their entire lives. It got so shallow, and I wanted to have more faith in my art than who I hooked up with (which is none of the net's business) but this is a big tangent than the original topic...


Most fandoms are like this.



Fay V said:


> No this applies to sonic canon. Right now MLP is pretty straight forward. The known minors are spike and the cutiemark crusaders.
> The main cast do seem to be of age, they all have jobs and such and they're all the same build and proportions of the other ponies, some which have kids.
> So in the case of MLP don't draw them looking like the tiny ponies in class.
> 
> ...


By that logic Amy Rose should be allowed. She drives, she has a house, so I assume she pays for bills. No child does that.

A majority of Sonic characters all have the same build and proportions of the other characters, and it's even been shown adult characters have very similar proportions to the late teen characters.
The only flat out obvious 'cub' characters are Cream, Tails, Charmy and Marine. All other characters are at a point to where their body shape and build is equal to that of an adult in the universe.
If MLP porn is allowed, then it's ridiculous and pretty much a double standard, because the same rules apply to it as it does Sonic.
And there's also the Comic VS. Game aspect, because in the comic most of the characters are of age, I'm sure. And there's even a comic in which it shows the characters old and with kids, and they look exactly the same as they did in the past when they were younger.

The guide is ridiculous.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 9, 2012)

You do know "It's my style" or the series style or whatever can actually be true. This is not so much a rule against Sonic art as it is a rule against banning an art style for adult works because some people are concerned about fictional characters ages. How can you seriously discuss how old something that doesn't exist is?


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> If MLP porn is allowed, then it's ridiculous and pretty much a double standard


Not really, because in the mlp universe fillies are about 2 feet tall, foals are about 1 foot tall and adult ponies are about 4 feet tall.  The exceptions to this are Celestia, Luna and Cadence who are about 6 feet, 5 feet and 6 feet tall, but alicorns are genetic mutations within the royal family and alicorns are thousands of years old... Except Leon.

The reason why they are having to stomp down on sonic is because they actually say how old they are unlike digimon, pokemon, mlp where we don't know shit about how old they are.  But yes if someone draws the cmc, spike, pipsqueek, poundcake or other fillies and foals sexually then yes that does violate the rules.


Tl:dr; it's not a double standard because tails is 11 years old, but drawing foals and fillies of mlp sexually does violate the rules, whereas the other characters no.


Rakuen Growlithe said:


> You do know "It's my style" or the  series style or whatever can actually be true. This is not so much a  rule against Sonic art as it is a rule against banning an art style for  adult works because some people are concerned about fictional characters  ages. How can you seriously discuss how old something that doesn't  exist is?


Rakuen stop, think about it for a second.  If FA is caught with cub porn and is reported, who the hell is going to pay for the site?

Before you whiteknight this, they are just doing this for financial reasons.  Fa has always in the past done the bare minimum legally.  So let up a bit and cut them some slack.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:
			
		

> Rakuen stop, think about it for a second.  If FA is caught with cub porn  and is reported, who the hell is going to pay for the site?
> 
> Before you whiteknight this, they are just doing this for financial  reasons.  Fa has always in the past done the bare minimum legally.  So  let up a bit and cut them some slack.



I know that. I knew why they banned cub porn even though I disagreed but I  don't think this is a forced decision. This is restricting a style, a style which, as has been pointed out, is part of the Sonic franchise.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I know that. I knew why they banned cub porn even though I disagreed but I  don't think this is a forced decision. This is restricting a style, a style which, as has been pointed out, is part of the Sonic franchise.


And?
Upholding the law so the site doesn't get taken down is more important than trying to save canon style porn.

Are you saying that losing the entire site is worth it?


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## Toxicko (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Not really, because in the mlp universe fillies are about 2 feet tall, foals are about 1 foot tall and adult ponies are about 4 feet tall.  The exceptions to this are Celestia, Luna and Cadence who are about 6 feet, 5 feet and 6 feet tall, but alicorns are genetic mutations within the royal family and alicorns are thousands of years old... Except Leon.
> 
> The reason why they are having to stomp down on sonic is because they actually say how old they are unlike digimon, pokemon, mlp where we don't know shit about how old they are.  But yes if someone draws the cmc, spike, pipsqueek, poundcake or other fillies and foals sexually then yes that does violate the rules.
> 
> ...



Yes, and? Adult Sonic characters are like 3 feet tall, younger ones are 2 feet tall. The exceptions are Big, Vector and Vanilla. 

They do have listed ages, yes. But there is also listed ages of them that show them to look exactly as they do now. 
http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images/f/f2/King_Sonic.jpg This is Sonic 25 years older than he currently is.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/_.../9/93/Supercharged-sonic-colors-PR500x820.jpg This is how he looks now.
So my point is, you can say Sonic characters like Sonic, Knuckles, etc are aged up and have them look the same they do now, since when they get older, they don't look any different. 
Though, Cream and Tails and the younger characters, you have to draw them looking different, because they adhere to a distinct 'cub' style.

And I'm sure there's worse things FA can be caught with than Sonic porn.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> Most fandoms are like this.



I've found many communities that are not like this in various fandoms, that's why I still enjoy many things. So what metric are you using? There some online meter I'm missing out?


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> \And I'm sure there's worse things FA can be caught with than Sonic porn.


Oh no doubt, the question is which powder keg will eventually cause FA to explode violently.


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## Toxicko (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I've found many communities that are not like this in various fandoms, that's why I still enjoy many things. So what metric are you using? There some online meter I'm missing out?


Just the fact that you see it everywhere. People trying to get porn of their characters, anime fan OCs who have huge tits and barely dress, just to get attention. It's a universal thing. It happens in the furry fandom as a whole too. 

But anyway


CannonFodder said:


> Oh no doubt, the question is which powder keg will eventually cause FA to explode violently.


Pretty much. With this they pretty much lit the fuse. if they're cracking down on one thing, they *have* to crack down on all of them.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> You do know "It's my style" or the series style or whatever can actually be true. This is not so much a rule against Sonic art as it is a rule against banning an art style for adult works because some people are concerned about fictional characters ages. How can you seriously discuss how old something that doesn't exist is?



"It's my style" has always been an excuse, and it's completely worthless to consider because it literally tells nothing. It alludes vaguely to possible objective points, but unless those points are specifically brought up, there is no legitimate basis for argument. It's a complete failure in any argument regarding critical analysis; you have to dive deeper.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> But anyway
> 
> Pretty much. With this they pretty much lit the fuse. if they're cracking down on one thing, they *have* to crack down on all of them.


You must be new here.

Trust me if there's anything I have learned it's that fa will continue to do the absolute bare minimum required by law.


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## Toxicko (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> You must be new here.
> 
> Trust me if there's anything I have learned it's that fa will continue to do the absolute bare minimum required by law.



I don't think I'm new, I've been here for at least 4 years. =P So trust me, I know.

Actually, I just realized. Guilmon from Digimon Tamers, who gets drawn in a lot of porn on FA, can't be more than 2 years old. Because in the series he's created by the main character. So what about that? s:


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> Guilmon from Digimon Tamers, who gets drawn in a lot of porn on FA, can't be more than 2 years old. Because in the series he's created by the main character. So what about that? s:


The dramabomb begins.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> I don't think I'm new, I've been here for at least 4 years. =P So trust me, I know.
> 
> Actually, I just realized. Guilmon from Digimon Tamers, who gets drawn in a lot of porn on FA, can't be more than 2 years old. Because in the series he's created by the main character. So what about that? s:



The maturity rate of Sonic characters is directly analogous with human maturity rates. Digimon is much more analogous to animals. These are extremely easy to see.

While I would personally love to see digimon porn gone, because it's gross, it currently falls under different rule sets.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> I don't think I'm new, I've been here for at least 4 years. =P So trust me, I know.
> 
> Actually, I just realized. Guilmon from Digimon Tamers, who gets drawn in a lot of porn on FA, can't be more than 2 years old. Because in the series he's created by the main character. So what about that? s:



He still does not have an age, digimon go from egg, in training, rookie, then to whatever they digivolve too after. And they also revert back to eggs and start over. The argument could possibly be made for in training form but what if they decided not to digivolve? The same goes for baby pokemon.


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## Toxicko (Feb 9, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> The maturity rate of Sonic characters is directly analogous with human maturity rates. Digimon is much more analogous to animals. These are extremely easy to see.
> 
> While I would personally love to see digimon porn gone, because it's gross, it currently falls under different rule sets.


Not necessarily. Digimon like Guilmon maybe have more of an animal mentality (which kinda makes it weirder being more animal like..) while say, one like Renamon obviously acts more human.

It's like with Pokemon as well. Most Pokemon act like animals. But legends etc act more human, they can talk, and have a lot of intelligence. 




Sciggles said:


> He still does not have an age, digimon go from egg, in training, rookie, then to whatever they digivolve too after. And they also revert back to eggs and start over. The argument could possibly be made for in training form but what if they decided not to digivolve? The same goes for baby pokemon.


Fair enough.
It might be a little weird to see porn of say.. in training/fresh Digimon or baby Pokemon like Togepi over their adult forms, though.. because those do outright look young


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> Just the fact that you see it everywhere. People trying to get porn of their characters, anime fan OCs who have huge tits and barely dress, just to get attention. It's a universal thing. It happens in the furry fandom as a whole too.



"You see it everywhere" ... that's pretty vague.
I am in many communities where this is not true. I go to many art sites, and they're not hoping for attention because they want "to be pretty through their character" - in fact they're looking for jobs, they're looking for money.  I also see girls who draw yaoi and while not my thing aren't using it as a hookup either.


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## Aden (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm imagining this same conversation taking place in a courtroom and it's hilarious


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Sonic

just to clear this up right here a user named murry posted it and Sciggles apparently time traveled right over this lol.

EDIT: lol messed up her name by accident sorry.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

Aden said:


> I'm imagining this same conversation taking place in a courtroom and it's hilarious


"And so, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this why my image of multi-dicked rapist Sonic is suitable for a public website."

-Horny Butts, Attorney-at-law


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## Bluflare (Feb 9, 2012)

It's weird how people on sciggles submission was saying teenage mutant ninja turtles alot yet nothing was done when the cub porn ban was initiated hell even I myself would be ban remover crazy just to remove them from there. It would not even make a discussion period if it has the turtles in it SWIPE gone already. If its just splinter, and shredder only acceptable.


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## Flynxy (Feb 9, 2012)

What about MLP porn? It's really "kid like" and I've seen many of it? 
Well most people try and make it adult like.
or other kid shows?
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7297808
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6264497/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6542943/
compared to
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7327913/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7304845/


No I didn't single out Shin0r0z, they were the only one I can remember off hand with kid like stuff .-.


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

The *only* issue I have about Sciggles' "guidelines" is simple: said guidelines appear to be dictating "creative policy" to artists. "You can draw Sonic porn, but if you don't draw it this one certain way, we'll ban your ass." Nothing gets under my skin more than one person saying artists can't express themselves a certain way -- especially when the Sonic characters' official appearances are largely "age neutral" to begin with.

The decision to institute these "guidelines" was made after a user had several of their submissions deleted, rather than after a healthy debate by FA's userbase. A "shoot first, ask questions later" administration style might keep FA out of any legal fires, but it's not going to win FA's admins fans amongst the userbase. I don't think the people complaining about this move would have cared about it so much if this conversation had taken place before those images from IS/Instant Sonic got deleted -- but now FA is left with a giant mess to clean up in the wake of a poor decision (nothing it hasn't had to do before), and all because nobody had the foresight to consider what kind of clusterfuck a decision such as this would create.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> The *only* issue I have about Sciggles' "guidelines" is simple: said guidelines appear to be dictating "creative policy" to artists. "You can draw Sonic porn, but if you don't draw it this one certain way, we'll ban your ass." Nothing gets under my skin more than one person saying artists can't express themselves a certain way -- especially when the Sonic characters' official appearances are largely "age neutral" to begin with.
> 
> The decision to institute these "guidelines" was made after a user had several of their submissions deleted, rather than after a healthy debate by FA's userbase. A "shoot first, ask questions later" administration style might keep FA out of any legal fires, but it's not going to win FA's admins fans amongst the userbase. I don't think the people complaining about this move would have cared about it so much if this conversation had taken place before those images from IS/Instant Sonic got deleted -- but now FA is left with a giant mess to clean up in the wake of a poor decision (nothing it hasn't had to do before), and all because nobody had the foresight to consider what kind of clusterfuck a decision such as this would create.



For clarity we've been working on guide-lines for a while now including how to explain to users what we look for when determining if something goes or stays when it comes to cub porn and sonic porn. It was actually my idea to actually have a drawn up image that shows the gist of how we go about trying to tackle the issue of age and sonic porn. We look at proportions. We look at anatomy. We look for things that can arguably be used to justify the characters as being "Grown up enough" so as to not cause issues for the site. There are many things behind the scenes that have we've been ironing out to help the user-base understand existing rules (some of them long standing).

We've been handling galleries left and right dealing with all sorts of different things, cub porn and sonic porn being just one of them. We are doing our best to ensure each one is handled consistently with as little issue as possible. Mess ups will happen and when they do we will fix those mess ups for the users. Ideally we seek to make mess-ups little to none.

I sympathize heavily with the issue that having to do things the way we are limits people on some forms of creativity. Unfortunately it's not really avoidable at this point. Some things need to be limited in order for the site to stay up. Sucks doesn't it? Take that issue up with the people who decide they need to play internet police, and create policies regarding fantasy content.


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

Let me clarify: I have no issue with guidelines such as the ones FA wants to implement. FA has legal "safe harbors" it needs to keep, and I get that.

My issue comes with springing the guidelines on users with no prior warning or announcement. Sciggles' initial "guidelines" submission came off as trying to dictate artistic style choices to artists rather than attempting to start a conversation on the topic. (It did to me, anyway.)

I don't have a problem with FA getting rid of "cub porn" -- but I do take issue with FA trying to tell artists how to draw certain characters, especially those with "age-neutral" official appearances. (Apply a "moron in a hurry" test here: would a "moron in a hurry" with no prior knowledge of the Sonic franchise be able to tell how old Sonic is by only looking at his official artwork?)


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## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

Why not just ban porn of Tails, Cream and all the ones truly known to be underage?


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## Kayla (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> Why not just ban porn of Tails, Cream and all the ones truly known to be underage?



I am not opposed to this.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> Let me clarify: I have no issue with guidelines such as the ones FA wants to implement. FA has legal "safe harbors" it needs to keep, and I get that.
> 
> My issue comes with springing the guidelines on users with no prior warning or announcement. Sciggles' initial "guidelines" submission came off as trying to dictate artistic style choices to artists rather than attempting to start a conversation on the topic. (It did to me, anyway.)
> 
> I don't have a problem with FA getting rid of "cub porn" -- but I do take issue with FA trying to tell artists how to draw certain characters, especially those with "age-neutral" official appearances. (Apply a "moron in a hurry" test here: would a "moron in a hurry" with no prior knowledge of the Sonic franchise be able to tell how old Sonic is by only looking at his official artwork?)



I do apologize if that is the way it came off as it was not the intention. We want to be able to share with the users what it is we use to make our choices. Unfortunately this does mean we have to dictate certain things such as proportions and anatomy although I am sure there is still some wriggle room for artistic liberty. That said we're not interested in pleasing "A moron in a hurry". Payment processors for example are not "Morons in a hurry". They are people with time. What they do with that time if they choose to zero in on us has an impact on everybody.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

According to these guidelines, even the adult characters would be considered underage. Rouge, Vector, Wave, Shadow, Vanilla, all of them are adults, yet they look almost no different than the younger characters. Fuck, Vanilla's eyes and hands are larger than Cream's. Vector's torso is shaped like a goddamn upside-down triangle. That's the reality of the Sonic artstyle, it's meant to be cartoonish, and even Sonic himself could easily be mistaken for an adult by someone who doesn't know better. Either go ahead and ban all Sonic art or just focus on cracking down on porn of characters who really are known to be prepubescent children.

And while you're at it, best start wiping Miu's gallery--Jam could easily pass for a 10-year-old, so we can't be too careful! Oh, and Drake Fenwick? Huge amount of sexualized young characters, better get rid of that guy! Pokemon? Who knows what age they are, better get rid of every Pokemon you see just in case! Digimon? They're just as ambiguous as Pokemon! Oops, there goes Dragoneer's gallery! Anime-style art in general? Huge eyes, weird proportions and childlike faces everywhere! Everything must go! Ponies? If they aren't resdesigned into surreal, voluptuous, small-eyed, dainty-hooved messes, might as well not post 'em at all or risk being banned!

See how flawed this is?


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't know what's more entertaining at the moment; This thread or True Captialist Radio.

From what I understand of the guide, it's just aging up certain characters to give the apperance of adults. I doubt it'll get rid of Digimon or pokemon porn at all until the next issue reguarding those subjects crop up. Maybe certain Digimon and/or pokemon cannot be drawn in a pornographic manner but what do I know? I don't draw either of them.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> it's just aging up certain characters to give the apperance of adults.



Which just does not work given A) the artstyle and B) the very BIOLOGY of these characters.


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Which just does not work given A) the artstyle and B) the very BIOLOGY of these characters.



Learn to get out of your comfort zone and experiment. It doesn't hurt to evolve as an artist and to improve on an existing style.


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> I do apologize if that is the way it came off as it was not the intention. We want to be able to share with the users what it is we use to make our choices. Unfortunately this does mean we have to dictate certain things such as proportions and anatomy although I am sure there is still some wriggle room for artistic liberty. That said we're not interested in pleasing "A moron in a hurry". Payment processors for example are not "Morons in a hurry". They are people with time. What they do with that time if they choose to zero in on us has an impact on everybody.



No apologies necessary; I should have been clearer in my statement to begin with.

I understand the worry about payment processors and such, but if you replace "moron in a hurry" with "payment processor employee" (and I'm not saying payment processor employees are morons), the test still applies. The only surefire way to ensure safety from payment processors yanking support due to "underage art" is to ban *everything* which looks underage (regardless of context) -- which, in turn, would dictate artistic style policy to several artists. As ElCid pointed out: what about Miu's Jam, who looks young but is established to be an adult? Would Miu have to stop posting mature/adult images of her on FA to avoid "corrective action" -- or would he be "encouraged" to alter her appearance to make her look older, as is being suggested with Sonic characters?


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Learn to get out of your comfort zone and experiment.


Yeah, sure, let's all be forced to make Sonic characters look weird as fuck. Forget the fact that none of these guidelines even apply to the canon adults of the series.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Yeah, sure, let's all be forced to make Sonic characters look weird as fuck. Forget the fact that none of these guidelines even apply to the canon adults of the series.



They already look weird as fuck to me even in canon. 

Then again a lot of the money and legal problems would go away if ppl couldn't do rule 34 of their favorite shows intended for kids... It would just have more ppl bitching tho


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Yeah, sure, let's all be forced to make Sonic characters look weird as fuck.



I dunno. Pertian does a good job with evolving the Sonic cannon style.
It really doesn't matter though. Having people rule #34 canon characters to fit their fantasies goes against the flow of the series, so why's changing an art style bad?


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> Then again a lot of the money and *legal problems* would go away if ppl couldn't do rule 34 of their favorite shows intended for kids



O hai fair use. Seriously, even Nintendo knows they can't legally do jack shit about it and Lauren Faust acknowledged it comes with the territory of being a popular media creator.

And interesting, Zeke, that you keep completely ignoring what I point out about how even the adult characters are cartoonish, stand at like three feet tall and often have larger eyes and more exaggerated extremities than the younger characters. AKA, the fact that the guidelines are made of fail right off the bat.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

But if FA users aren't allowed to rape the underaged heroes of our childhood, who will!?

I say we all rise up in silent protest against FA, and not draw any Sonic porn anymore! That'll learn those mean admins!
:V


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Y'know, maybe the point will be made clearer with the use of a visual aid. Let's examine this picture of Wave.

http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images/e/ef/Sonic-Free-Riders-Characters-artwork-Wave.png

- Massive eyes, combined with a large head. Whoops, that's one rule broken already.
- Large hands. There's another.
- Noodle limbs. And another.
- Enormous feet. Wow, these keep piling up!
- Measures at about three feet tall. Damn, whoever used this character is treading dangerous waters now!
- What ho? Why, it seems she's flatter than a surfboard with a tubelike torso and the hips of a 10-year-old boy!

Final verdict: UNDERAGE, even though she's 18, but hell, them's the rules.

Point is, THESE GUIDELINES ARE SHIT.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> O hai fair use. Seriously, even Nintendo knows they can't legally do jack shit about it and Lauren Faust acknowledged it comes with the territory of being a popular media creator.



Errr ummm no. There have been cases where recognizable franchise characters have been removed from the walls of daycare centers. It is usually met with hostility from fans but it has happened. There is a live and let live attitude due to companies recognizing fandom, and also the costs it takes for jurisdiction. 

But we are not just talking about the US. The problem came, if you bothered to read a bit ago when other countries blacklist due to their laws. Then the merchant services cutting things off due to the site's content.

There is no elegant solution. Since you are not paying for the site, the decision will mainly fall on the person who does. That person allows input to better serve the users, but you can't always get what you want.


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> And interesting, Zeke, that you keep completely ignoring what I point out about how even the adult characters are cartoonish, stand at like three feet tall and often have larger eyes and more exaggerated extremities than the younger characters. AKA, the fact that the guidelines are made of fail right off the bat.



You are angry, I understand why but relax for a moment. You brought up how the current style is a part of canon and it goes against canon to remake the style. I also mentioned that rule #34 goes against canon anyway, so why would there be a problem changing the art style reguardless if they are "adult", "adolescent", or "child-like"?



Heimdal said:


> But if FA users aren't allowed to rape the underaged heroes of our childhood, who will!?
> 
> I say we all rise up in silent protest against FA, and not draw any Sonic porn anymore! That'll learn those mean admins!
> :V




In retaliation to this "Censorship, I say we black out all of the porn images and write Dragoneer until he changes the policy. FREEDOM OF SPEECH! :V


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

I love when people use canon like some kind of bullshit devil's advocate. "Oh, if you go against what they canonically are shown doing anyway, you should have no problem altering the way you draw them!" Yeah, fuck that noise.


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> I love when people use canon like some kind of bullshit devil's advocate. "Oh, if you go against what they canonically are shown doing anyway, you should have no problem altering the way you draw them!" Yeah, fuck that noise.



Answer the question instead of going on a tangent please.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> - Massive eyes, combined with a large head. Whoops, that's one rule broken already.
> - Large hands. There's another.
> - Noodle limbs. And another.
> - Enormous feet. Wow, these keep piling up!
> ...



That character looks like shit anyways, but I digress..

I agree, the rules aren't very good. Admins should abandon them and delete underaged Sonic porn on a time-consuming case-by-case basis that users have no way to anticipate. That's what you're hoping for, right? Otherwise, offer your input on what can be changed to improve the guidelines given; they have read your posts already, so they're listening.

Or do you just want underaged Sonic porn allowed entirely? In which case, I have nothing pleasant to say about that.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Here's a better question: Why the shit should we have to change the way we draw them? Again, examine the posts where it's brought up that tons of stuff will have to be removed if this new rule flies, or else it just shows a huge bias against Sonic-related stuff.

Here's an idea--if it involves characters who really are children and they aren't stated anywhere to be aged up, FUCKING DELETE IT. Otherwise, LEAVE IT BE. Oh noes, such a difficult task!


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Here's a better question: Why the shit should we have to change the way we draw them? Again, examine the posts where it's brought up that tons of stuff will have to be removed if this new rule flies, or else it just shows a huge bias against Sonic-related stuff.



It's not the bias that the site has. Honestly, I don't mind Sonic art, but if it comes to trouble due to legallity then it is up to the admins to TRY and please people to come up with a middle ground instead of doing a blanket ban. 



> Here's an idea--if it involves characters who really are children and they aren't stated anywhere to be aged up, FUCKING DELETE IT. Otherwise, LEAVE IT BE. Oh noes, such a difficult task!



The admins already do that, but not enough people report it in tickets so some...if not most get missed. Admins are not omnipotent, so try and do your part and help out if you think an image violates the AUP. The staff of FA doesn't want to ban art, but if it comes down to legal issues pertaining to a type of drawing, then it has to be done sadly.


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> I agree, the rules aren't very good. Admins should abandon them and delete underaged Sonic porn on a time-consuming case-by-case basis that users have no way to anticipate. That's what you're hoping for, right? Otherwise, offer your input on what can be changed to improve the guidelines given; they have read your posts already, so they're listening.
> 
> Or do you just want underaged Sonic porn allowed entirely? In which case, I have nothing pleasant to say about that.



The guidelines are considered bad because they're arbitrary. As ElCid pointed out, Wave is canonically 18 -- but any artist who draws her naked *and* in the Sonic style would have their picture removed under Sciggles' guidelines.

The official Sonic franchise art is "age-neutral"; there's nothing to differentiate Tails as being older or younger than Sonic other than his height, just as there's nothing about Amy Rose's appearance which indicates she's older or younger than Tails. "Aging up" characters who have no determinate age in official artwork is a matter of artistic style -- and rather than letting artists find their own style or own way to draw "aged up" Sonic characters, Sciggles all but said "draw them like this or else" (which is where a lot of the anger over this decision is coming from).

As ElCid and I have pointed out: it's all well and good to "age up" characters, but what about characters like Jam, who are "adult" characters with youthful appearances? Would Miu have to give Jam bigger breasts, pubic "fur", or some other aesthetic alteration to continue posting nude pics of her on FA?

The only way to handle this situation is on a case-by-case basis -- unless FA wants to step into the quagmire of telling artists how to draw their artwork.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> No apologies necessary; I should have been clearer in my statement to begin with.
> 
> I understand the worry about payment processors and such, but if you replace "moron in a hurry" with "payment processor employee" (and I'm not saying payment processor employees are morons), the test still applies. The only surefire way to ensure safety from payment processors yanking support due to "underage art" is to ban *everything* which looks underage (regardless of context) -- which, in turn, would dictate artistic style policy to several artists. As ElCid pointed out: what about Miu's Jam, who looks young but is established to be an adult? Would Miu have to stop posting mature/adult images of her on FA to avoid "corrective action" -- or would he be "encouraged" to alter her appearance to make her look older, as is being suggested with Sonic characters?



You state that perhaps we should "Ban everything that looks underage". To some extend we do judge based on looks as part of it. What it gets down to is that it gets removed if 

A: It looks underage.(Again we use things like anatomy and proportions for this.) 
B: if it is contextually underage (for that we turn to mainstream information about the character).

I have no idea who "Mai jam" is. But if the character appears by anatomy and proportions to look underage than it goes. We do this with Shippo. I know many people may take great issue with this but it's a loop hole we have to close. Otherwise you will have people uploading shota/loli/cub porn claiming "Oh they are 18 or 1000 years old" to try to loop hole around the no minors in sexual situations rule.

The answer to your other question is yes, he would be required (if we assume that the character in question does look underage) to alter her to age her up. I know this doesn't seem right or fair. We have to do what is necessary to look after the site and what is best for it. That said I venture forth an option that it may be a good idea for people to have membership to multiple websites to cater to specific interests. It's not a terrible thing. If you know some of what you really enjoy making for yourself and other artists creates issues for a site take it somewhere else and maintain a few spots so you don't have to sacrifice the style that you wish to keep in order to follow rules.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Flynxy said:


> What about MLP porn? It's really "kid like" and I've seen many of it?
> Well most people try and make it adult like.
> or other kid shows?
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7297808
> ...


While I wouldn't mind seeing feral mlp porn banned, the fact that this is being used as a rationalization for keeping certain types of cubporn is starting to grate on my nerves and I'm about to frenzy if I see this fucking argument again.

*just noticed I replied to a comment on the second page, my fault, I was idling for a bit*


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> I have no idea who "Mai jam" is.



Michael "Miu" Vega (FA's Miupix) is the artist. Jam is his character.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7338099/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7131705/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2807118/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1016751/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/629078/

She looks young, doesn't she?

Miu lists her age at *31*.

Y'all have fun with that little quagmire of a situation.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> The only way to handle this situation is on a case-by-case basis -- unless FA wants to step into the quagmire of telling artists how to draw their artwork.



I understand the frustrations in your post because we are talking about fictional characters anyways.

However, there is a logical fallacy that one *has* draw to specs the FA guidelines. A person is still free to draw whatever they want, but the frustration is that you may not be able to post to FA those kind of characters that fall under issues. You can try working with the guidelines, but if it doesn't suit you then perhaps another website that allows it will. Just like how there are limits on photography and other materials on FA, which are allowed on other sites.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> Michael "Miu" Vega (FA's Miupix) is the artist. Jam is his character.
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7338099/
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7131705/
> ...


Easy, if it looks like a kid it'll be treated as such.

Cause you honestly expect the admin staff to go out and read the age of EVERY last character on the planet?
Just cause someone claims their character is above 18 doesn't mean they are.
Back during the cub ban drama people were saying, "my character is a 805328 year old shape shifter" or, "they took hormones to prevent them from reaching puberty" or other crap.

If it looks like a kid, then it's a kid.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Good job, CannonFodder and Trpdwarf, you may have both just become enemies of Miu's whole fanbase.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Good job, CannonFodder and Trpdwarf, you may have both just become enemies of Miu's whole fanbase.




That isnt what matters to us, what matters is upholding the rules /equally/


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Good job, CannonFodder and Trpdwarf, you may have both just become enemies of Miu's whole fanbase.



So are you saying that the fanbase may...I dunno be reasonable and not declare a jihad because some people are less knowledgeable? They might do things like be reasonable and talk and inform people who don't know about these characters?

Or are they like Twilight and Naruto fans?


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> The guidelines are considered bad because they're arbitrary. As ElCid pointed out, Wave is canonically 18 -- but any artist who draws her naked *and* in the Sonic style would have their picture removed under Sciggles' guidelines.
> 
> The official Sonic franchise art is "age-neutral"; there's nothing to differentiate Tails as being older or younger than Sonic other than his height, just as there's nothing about Amy Rose's appearance which indicates she's older or younger than Tails. "Aging up" characters who have no determinate age in official artwork is a matter of artistic style -- and rather than letting artists find their own style or own way to draw "aged up" Sonic characters, Sciggles all but said "draw them like this or else" (which is where a lot of the anger over this decision is coming from).
> 
> ...



Isn't this entire argument moot? Both methods will run into the exact same type of problems no matter what is done, the only difference is convenience of having a guideline or not. There is no perfect solution, just clarity of rules (which is the purpose guidelines serve). I think the guidelines can be greatly improved upon, but they will be more useful to have in the end.

Remember that they are not controlling what people draw, they are controlling what's allowed on this site.


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Good job, CannonFodder and Trpdwarf, you may have both just become enemies of Miu's whole fanbase.



>Make guidelines and explain them in a calm manner.
>over 9000 butthurt fans declaring Jihad on two people. 

..What?


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> there is a logical fallacy that one *has* draw to specs the FA guidelines.



Sciggles' initial "guidelines" submission implied a "draw Sonic characters like this or else" situation, which is what pissed people off. Removing art because it doesn't meet arbitrary guidelines for "aging up" characters with technically "age neutral" official artwork smacks of telling artists how to draw certain characters.

I'm not saying well-thought-out guidelines can't be useful -- but these guidelines were *not* thought-out, as ElCid pointed out with the image of Wave.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> >Make guidelines and explain them in a calm manner.
> >over 9000 butthurt fans declaring Jihad on two people.
> 
> ..What?



Go back up and read the posts by them and now Sciggles basically saying "Miu gets the boot if he's not willing to redesign or scrap his character."

Oh, and way to be dramatic. "Jihad". Wow. Yeah, sure, that's what's happening, his fanbase just now all jumped up and yelled "DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!"


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Good job, CannonFodder and Trpdwarf, you may have both just become enemies of Miu's whole fanbase.


Bring it the fuck on.

So I'll say it again, in my opinion if it looks like the character is underage and it's pornographic then it needs to be removed.


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> Sciggles' initial "guidelines" submission implied a "draw Sonic characters like this or else" situation, which is what pissed people off. Removing art because it doesn't meet arbitrary guidelines for "aging up" characters with technically "age neutral" official artwork smacks of telling artists how to draw certain characters.
> 
> I'm not saying well-thought-out guidelines can't be useful -- but these guidelines were *not* thought-out, as ElCid pointed out with the image of Wave.



The age is irrelevent when it comes to the porn being drawn, it's the subjective nature of what it looks like that comes into question. Admins won't go to the wiki to look at the age of a character, they will look at it and decide from there. If it looks underage, then it may have to be deleted.



ElCid said:


> Go back up and read the posts by them and now Sciggles basically saying "Miu gets the boot if he's not willing to redesign or scrap his character."
> 
> Oh, and way to be dramatic. "Jihad". Wow. Yeah, sure, that's what's happening, his fanbase just now all jumped up and yelled "DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!"



Facepalm.jpg


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> Michael "Miu" Vega (FA's Miupix) is the artist. Jam is his character.
> 
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7338099/
> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7131705/
> ...



Actually it's not that much of a quagmire to me. Hypothetically if someone linked this to me in a ticket I would have to say "it is within the rules" if it were porn. This is where judging on a case by case basis and paying attention to both anatomy and proportions comes in handy. I will go ahead and break some of this down. This character is female. It has pretty obvious mature female parts to it. Studying the fact that she actually has the curves of a mature women, she has that bit of an hour glass shape, her legs don't come straight down as one uniform length (in fact in some pictures more than others you can see the development of muscle in or the appearance of it).

The character may be drawn in a "Cutesy" style with the larger eyes (reminding me of some Anime and Disney styles where large eyes help with expression) but enough is there to suggest this is a mature enough character. Now if someone threw up a different set of pictures (maybe there was some fan art done by fans of this character) and the character was drawn without the defining features that make her look mature enough than those pictures would be removed. 

As it is at least with those pictures this character appears to be late teens, early emerging adult, or possibly a petite youthful women. You do get young shorter women that have very petite frames but even they have tell-tale characteristics. This is where having a good solid foundation in anatomy helps out an artist so the can pull off these kinds of things correctly without it affecting the appearance of an under-age teen.

*I am aware as we all are on the admin team not all grown women have an hour glass shape. However for the sake of the linked pictures I see that hour glass shape and this is something that tends to be something you see on sexually mature female bodies.



ElCid said:


> Go back up and read the posts by them and now  Sciggles basically saying "Miu gets the boot if he's not willing to  redesign or scrap his character."
> 
> Oh, and way to be dramatic. "Jihad". Wow. Yeah, sure, that's what's  happening, his fanbase just now all jumped up and yelled "DEATH TO THE  INFIDELS!"



Wow, didn't know that saying "Hey that content is okay" made me an enemy. Please give me a chance to respond to things. ;/


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Go back up and read the posts by them and now Sciggles basically saying "Miu gets the boot if he's not willing to redesign or scrap his character."
> 
> Oh, and way to be dramatic. "Jihad". Wow. Yeah, sure, that's what's happening, his fanbase just now all jumped up and yelled "DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!"



I never said they get the boot :\ dont jump to conclusions, what I said was that just because a fan base will hate us should not keep up from enforcing the rules equally. I don't know if their art needs to be changed or not.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Sciggles said:


> I never said they get the boot :\ dont jump to conclusions, what I said was that just because a fan base will hate us should not keep up from enforcing the rules equally. I don't know if their art needs to be changed or not.



http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7338099/

Shown here: A character he frequently uses in his porn who could easily pass for a preteen at a quick glance.

Have fun.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

WHY does that image need to be removed? Its not even mature :V


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

As I stated in the post, this is a character frequently used in Miu's pornographic content that could easily be mistaken at quick glance for a girl of about 12. Her stated age is 31. Would you force Miu to change how this character looks so she looks more "adult" or risk being banned?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> I'm not saying well-thought-out guidelines can't be useful -- but these guidelines were *not* thought-out, as ElCid pointed out with the image of Wave.



I think Heimdal has presented some well presented and less ranty arguments to the latter. The whole point becomes moot as noted.

The fact is, it's still about what is being posted, not how you have to draw. You can still draw X as you want, but it may run into trouble posting it here if it raises certain flags in the guidelines. That's just the sucky part. 

There is no elegant solution as far as I can see. Guidelines can be better and I certainly was in no real rush to post them for various reasons, but I'm just one person on this staff 

I don't like cub porn but I don't like the route countries/merchants have taken that cause these issues to arise either. If people can't hit you with it legally, as the US constitution here says it's not a problem ...they certainly like to make sure they can go around hitting you monetarily.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

Why should anyone care who Miu is? That's not even a valid argument. It's just throwing around weight as if some idiot who draws porn is important to a free website.


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## Sciggles (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> As I stated in the post, this is a character frequently used in Miu's pornographic content that could easily be mistaken at quick glance for a girl of about 12. Her stated age is 31. Would you force Miu to change how this character looks so she looks more "adult" or risk being banned?




If you think it looks like underage porn then report it and we will look into it on a case by case basis. But this also seems to have gotten off topic, wasn't this about Sonic art?


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh for the love of....


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> As I stated in the post, this is a character frequently used in Miu's pornographic content that could easily be mistaken at quick glance for a girl of about 12. Her stated age is 31. Would you force Miu to change how this character looks so she looks more "adult" or risk being banned?



Elcid please take the time to read what I wrote in response to Freehaven's post. He linked several examples of this character and I gave a really good response to it. You will find it insightful. It answers your question.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> Why should anyone care who Miu is? That's not even a valid argument. It's just throwing around weight as if some idiot who draws porn is important to a free website.


Wow. You think a prolific furry artist, the owner of Club Stripes, is just "some idiot who draws porn". Just... WOW.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> they certainly like to make sure they can go around hitting you monetarily.


Unfortunately far too many users don't realize the cub ban is solely in effect for monetary reasons.


ElCid said:


> Wow. You think a prolific furry artist, the owner  of Club Stripes, is just "some idiot who draws porn". Just...  WOW.


Internet popularity does not equal real life popularity.

Think of it this way, if let's dragoneer went outside and screamed, "HEY EVERYONE I'M DRAGONEER!", more than likely everybody's reaction is going to be, "dafuq?" and not have a clue what he means.


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Unfortunately far too many users don't realize the cub ban is solely in effect for monetary reasons.



I have spoken to a few on and offline people that have come up with different stories and reasons to why it has been banned. It's a laugh and a headache to hear.

Alright, back ontopic.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Wow. You think a prolific furry artist, the owner of Club Stripes, is just "some idiot who draws porn". Just... WOW.



Ok, but why should everyone care. I know who Miu is, but I don't expect everyone who draws to know who this person is nor should they care. You can be a fan of Club Stripes and there is no problem with that, but shoving the fact that not everyone cares down their face is just silly.

It's not like "the industry" where if you didn't know who "X" person is, you may not land a job.

If someone doesn't know who Club Stripes is and enjoys furry art and draws it, life goes on.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Internet popularity does not equal real life popularity.



Where did I say it does? I said he's not just some nobody within the fandom.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Where did I say it does? I said he's not just some nobody within the fandom.


What I'm getting at is just cause someone is popufur doesn't mean the world would come to a end if they change a character's design.

Miu may be popular, but it's not that big of a deal if he changes her design.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Here's what I think.

The major reason this has had such a massive backlash is that first and foremost, it feels like you were trying to oppress how people draw Sonic in the Sonic art style. I think that people don't necessarily HAVE to greatly alter the look of the character to meet the rules of the site; but that was entirely how it felt.

But like Rouge, Wave? These are mature characters, who are no taller than Sonic, Knuckles, etc. They are what we would call 'mature' for that design and universe. Tails & Cream are not. So, if one was to keep Sonic in a very close style to what is presented, then I don't see what is really wrong here.

Another reason this has been such a big thing is that, right now, it only affects Sonic...but it will later extend further out to other characters. As I've asked on multiple occasions, I have a character that I have plans to use for artwork and possibly stories...but I have no idea if she's actually 'legit' for FA or not in that manner, without being altered.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4325552/

..so, yeah. I have no idea if she's proper or not, and I keep seeing folks saying just ban Sonic porn altogether...because 'safety first'

That's how oppressed people get into these situations. First you ban one thing, then another, and another, and next thing you know, there's no freedoms at all. :| FA has to be careful to tread that line.


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> What I'm getting at is just cause someone is popufur doesn't mean the world would come to a end if they change a character's design.



Doubt he even would. He'd probably end up just leaving if that kind of BS was forced on him.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Wow. You think a prolific furry artist, the owner of Club Stripes, is just "some idiot who draws porn". Just... WOW.



That's what I think, yeah.
You forgot the part about them shouting, "I AM THE LAW!"

But seriously, if random popular porno artist dictates the rules, that's a fundamental problem in the system. In fact, that'd be really sad.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> That's how oppressed people get into these situations. First you ban one thing, then another, and another, and next thing you know, there's no freedoms at all. :| FA has to be careful to tread that line.


FUCKING HOLD IT!

The reason for the cub porn ban is because if they allowed cub porn then Fa would get bitch-slapped monetarily and wouldn't be able to receive donations to maintain the site.
Are you telling me the entire site going dark cause they can't pay their bills is worth it just to see sonic porn?


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## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> That's what I think, yeah.
> You forgot the part about them shouting, "I AM THE LAW!"
> 
> But seriously, if random popular porno artist dictates the rules, that's a fundamental problem in the system. In fact, that'd be really sad.



It's. An. EXAMPLE. An example of how disturbingly flawed these guidelines are, especially when you apply them to things other than Sonic that could be in danger next.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh oppression. On that logic, Lunatic, FA will soon go the way of Nazi Germany. All because of wanting to enforce not having underage looking characters in sexual positions. 

How about ya just be glad they don't ban sexual art of trademarked characters and let the whole pedobait thing go.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> It's. An. EXAMPLE. An example of how disturbingly flawed these guidelines are, especially when you apply them to things other than Sonic that could be in danger next.


*Slippery slope argument detected*
*logical fallacy detected*

Okay hold on for a second since you keep using slippery slope arguments, I'm a brony and I'd be jumping for joy and doing backflips if the fa staff banned feral mlp porn.
You have no damn clue how much I hope your slippery slope argument would happen.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> FUCKING HOLD IT!
> 
> The reason for the cub porn ban is because if they allowed cub porn then Fa would get bitch-slapped monetarily and wouldn't be able to receive donations to maintain the site.
> Are you telling me the entire site going dark cause they can't pay their bills is worth it just to see sonic porn?



Do you even remotely know what I was talking about? This is what is known as a 'slippery slope'.

The fact is, that the cub ban on the site occurred, means that not everything is 'okay' to put on the site. It's too extreme.

The ban was in response to AlertPay dropping FA; and I never heard another word about if they found another provider or not. I assume they did, but for all I know they never did.

Now that the cub ban is on, we're having issues with Sonic artwork, and the art that Sciggles post felt like it was oppressing folks' abilities to what they could draw and display on this site. Apparently that's not the intention, but that was how it felt.

Some folks have suggested banning Sonic porn/artwork altogether. If cub could be banned, why not Sonic?....well, if Sonic, why not MLP? If not MLP, why not Tiny Toons? If not cub, why not scat? If not scat, why not gore?

Do you see how this works? You start at the top, and work your way down, removing everything on the way down so you don't have anything.

THAT will kill the site just as easily as not having a donation service.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> That's how oppressed people get into these situations. First you ban one thing, then another, and another, and next thing you know, there's no freedoms at all. :| FA has to be careful to tread that line.



I was waiting for the Slippery Slope argument to come out....

FA with all its problems still is trying to allow as much freedom as possible without hurting themselves as well in the wallet(yeah yeah I'm waiting for the snarks on this cuz WE KNOW FA HAS PROBLEMS). 

However, I don't see an outright ban on Sonic art or all of the porn for that matter.  So yes, we understand...and I see at least most of our staff understanding too (least the ones I've spoken with)


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> The fact is, that the cub ban on the site occurred, means that not everything is 'okay' to put on the site. It's too extreme.



Dude. I hate to break this to you. 

NOT. EVERYTHING. IS. OKAY.


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## Waffles (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> It's. An. EXAMPLE. An example of how disturbingly flawed these guidelines are, especially when you apply them to things other than Sonic that could be in danger next.



All of your examples have been terrible.
I have NEVER heard of Miu before this, and even now, I don't give two shits :I Seriously. Just because ONE PERSON gets upset or ONE THING gets "banned" isn't the end of the world do your fap-fest...


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## Freehaven (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> (yeah yeah I'm waiting for the snarks on this cuz WE KNOW FA HAS PROBLEMS)



FA'S FUCKED UP, YO.

(Well, somebody had to do it.)


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Some folks have suggested banning Sonic porn/artwork altogether. If cub could be banned, why not Sonic?....well, if Sonic, why not MLP? If not MLP, why not Tiny Toons? If not cub, why not scat? If not scat, why not gore?


I highly doubt general artwork would be banned as well, because if they ban all artwork then what is the website for, but if ALL sonic porn, mlp porn, tiny toons porn was banned I'd be so happy that I'd literally die.

In short you still have no goddamn clue how much I want your slippery slope argument to happen.





lostcat461 said:


> Dude. I hate to break this to you.
> 
> NOT. EVERYTHING. IS. OKAY.


Well Fa's UI still uses tables and very few people use tables anymore and the ones that do became website programmers before the late 90's.  I actually feel sorry for Yak and the rest of the programmer's team cause they are expected to fix the clusterfuck of a UI instead of just starting from the beginning.  Seriously why don't they just start over with using CSS instead?


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## Ozriel (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> It's. An. EXAMPLE. An example of how disturbingly flawed these guidelines are, especially when you apply them to things other than Sonic that could be in danger next.



Okay and?
Instead of turning beligerent, maybe you could actually be constructive in your criticism..no matter how flawed or slippery it may be.
It's just the porn, not the general stuff that the admins are trying to find a middle ground on. It may not please everyone but atleast one admin tried to find one.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I was waiting for the Slippery Slope argument to come out....
> 
> FA with all its problems still is trying to allow as much freedom as possible without hurting themselves as well in the wallet(yeah yeah I'm waiting for the snarks on this cuz WE KNOW FA HAS PROBLEMS).
> 
> However, I don't see an outright ban on Sonic art or all of the porn for that matter.  So yes, we understand...and I see at least most of our staff understanding too (least the ones I've spoken with)



I don't see an outright ban...YET. The idea of a slippery slope needs to be pointed out, needs to be stated and noticed. It's one of the few ways to combat it.

I understand that FA is trying to keep as much freedom as possible, and that is a GOOD thing. But the art guideline thing only felt like it was trying to limit an artist's creativity all the more, which is bad.

I saw folks suggesting that, very literally, all Sonic art should be banned off the site to 'remove the problem'. That's not fixing the issue, and would only serve to harm the site.


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## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> It's. An. EXAMPLE. An example of how disturbingly flawed these guidelines are, especially when you apply them to things other than Sonic that could be in danger next.



Then stop whining about them and gives some input for fleshing them out better.

These guidelines were agreed upon by the admins. It is their basis of distinction between what is acceptable and what is not. They were going to exist no matter what course of action they all took. It could have just been unsaid. Instead of fighting what is absolutely inevitable, you could guide it into more what you'd like to see. That's the big reason they voiced this thing entirely. It could have just been unsaid.

I haven't seen a single rational suggestion, just a whole lot of table flipping.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> I highly doubt general artwork would be banned as well, because if they ban all artwork then what is the website for, but if ALL sonic porn, mlp porn, tiny toons porn was banned I'd be so happy that I'd literally die.
> 
> In short you still have no goddamn clue how much I want your slippery slope argument to happen.



Yeah, and that would be the death of the site. People would move on to where they could do things like that, and drop off FA like flies.

If all artwork was banned like that, and your'e just left with 'general audiences' artwork, then people lose a lot of what they came here for.


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## Waffles (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Yeah, and that would be the death of the site. People would move on to where they could do things like that, and drop off FA like flies.
> 
> If all artwork was banned like that, and your'e just left with 'general audiences' artwork, then people lose a lot of what they came here for.



Seriously? Rule34 art takes up such a small% of the art, probably. It's seriously negligable. BAN IT and see, watch like 5 furries BAWWW and the rest not give a shit.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> your'e just left with 'general audiences' artwork


My reaction to that if it ever came to pass would be, "HELL YEAH!"


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Here's what I think.
> 
> The major reason this has had such a massive backlash is that first and foremost, it feels like you were trying to oppress how people draw Sonic in the Sonic art style. I think that people don't necessarily HAVE to greatly alter the look of the character to meet the rules of the site; but that was entirely how it felt.
> 
> ...



We understand this. People are afraid that this is going to back-lash upon other things. However this is not a new rule at least. It's been said before that under aged characters are prohibited from being in adult/mature situations. We've told people before that they need to age things up. So everyone should try to remember while having a guide-line coming into fruition is actual rules behind it are not.

That said I look at your picture and as is customary when I deal with these kinds of things I pitch to a few other admins to get their view-point as well. This is a good example of a gray area. If you want I can explain to you what I would suggest as an admin when it comes to your character here, or I could note you. Either or.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Right there. Flaw in your arguemtn. If all that porn was gone. You know what would be left? Original character stuff.  Which trust me, would not be all "general audience" artwork. Go start an underage looking sonic porn submission website. See where it gets you.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> We understand this. People are afraid that this is going to back-lash upon other things. However this is not a new rule at least. It's been said before that under aged characters are prohibited from being in adult/mature situations. We've told people before that they need to age things up. So everyone should try to remember while having a guide-line coming into fruition is actual rules behind it are not.
> 
> That said I look at your picture and as is customary when I deal with these kinds of things I pitch to a few other admins to get their view-point as well. This is a good example of a gray area. If you want I can explain to you what I would suggest as an admin when it comes to your character here, or I could note you. Either or.




...at least someone here is talking with something of a level head, as it seems a lot of the responses I'm getting are just flat out ignoring a lot of the points I'm making and going for one little thing.

Truthfully, I have no desire to 'vastly alter' the character there. I got her like that, I like her like that, and I have already used her for some artwork.

She's been altered a bit via artistic license from the artist for that piece, but was mostly 'in tact'. At most, her boobs got SLIGHTLY bigger, and...that was about it. Maybe her chest was extended slightly, but I digress.

I am at least interested to hear what the thought process behind this would be, as a lot of times it seems like there's a lot of mystery going on for the staff's decisions, and that's sometimes a good thing...and sometimes a bad thing. In this case, we have little to no knowledge on what is acceptable or not, and it's hard to tell.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Right there. Flaw in your arguemtn. If all that porn was gone. You know what would be left? Original character stuff.  Which trust me, would not be all "general audience" artwork. Go start an underage looking sonic porn submission website. See where it gets you.



Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the OCs that people come up with, but you totally missed the entire point of the 'Slippery Slope' argument entirely.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

oi oi, sadly this whole incident started from the original rules never being very clear on this (no even idiots would know saying "aged up" isnt enough since all of you actually have different guidelines on what each of you thought was aged up enough) so now we have a guildline that is saying "no you cant draw it in the canon style even if you have found a way to age up the characters. no you are not allowed to draw in the canon style, go learn another"
the other problem is folks going "not my problem, it doesnt concern me, I dont draw sonic porn." *continues to draw art in a kemono style that the characters seem to be cubs/young teens* to which they will then bitch when folks get on their case which probably end up being just like this of the guideline pretty much going "Nope go learn a different style"


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the OCs that people come up with, but you totally missed the entire point of the 'Slippery Slope' argument entirely.



Oh, I'm sorry. I simply disregard your slippery slope argument because it is silly, you big silly billy. 

Because, as I said before. Everything. (don't make me underline it) Is *not* okay. Just because you say it is art doesn't mean society's rules do not apply. That is the suffering of an artist.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the OCs that people come up with, but you totally missed the entire point of the 'Slippery Slope' argument entirely.


Slippery slope arguments are fundamentally bullcrap, so much so that if I had a time machine I would go back in time and find the person who first spouted the logic behind it and bash his knees in with a bat.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> I don't see an outright ban...YET. The idea of a slippery slope needs to be pointed out, needs to be stated and noticed. It's one of the few ways to combat it.



To be honest, I don't think the slippery slope needs to be pointed out. It's not like there hasn't been an argument before about something getting banned on the site in every FAdramacluster of noogety goodness has gone (though I really think FA drama is more like stale milk duds - even fresh ones taste stale) through.

Just saying ...


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. I simply disregard your slippery slope argument because it is silly, you big silly billy.
> 
> Because, as I said before. Everything. (don't make me underline it) Is *not* okay. Just because you say it is art doesn't mean society's rules do not apply. That is the suffering of an artist.



It's actually not silly when you're seeing examples of where one thing is expanding out, and affecting other things.

That's why people had a knee-jerk reaction to this. It seemed that folks were getting used to how FA was policing this policy, then WHAM, suddenly now it's actually not good enough. You have to go further. It's limiting you even more, taking away the ability and choice to do so on here.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> ...at least someone here is talking with something of a level head, as it seems a lot of the responses I'm getting are just flat out ignoring a lot of the points I'm making and going for one little thing.
> 
> Truthfully, I have no desire to 'vastly alter' the character there. I got her like that, I like her like that, and I have already used her for some artwork.
> 
> ...



I understand that you (like many people here) don't want to have to vastly alter their content to make it fit the rules. I really wish we didn't have to go this way but again, we can't help it. That said I'm just going to imagine for a moment that I opened up a ticket and your image is up for question. Does it pass as being as mature enough or not? The answer would be almost but no. The character has some very obvious adult things going on. It also has some very...child like things as well. 

Adult: I see the beginning of a developed hip area, and a well developed bust.
Child: I see a very child-like hair style that is often associated with kids and young teens. Also the legs still appear somewhat juvenile although the hips do not.
This does swing in favor of being within the rules but the hair style with the very petite legs bugs me. I can see a payment processor jumping all over this going "child". Because it is a gray area I would lean towards asking the artist to do a little work on the hip/legs to try to age that area up. Then it's just a short petite older teen or emerging adult that likes to wear a very girly-child-like hair style.

I'd want to talk to many more admins than I have if it came down to it. Just because with gray areas like this I want as many voices as possible. These are my initial thoughts and what is going on in my head for understanding. I tend to take longer on these types of tickets because I really feel that multiple admins should be involved in cases like this. That way you can get multiple heads because this is such a sensitive and difficult (but necessary) issue.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> That's why people had a knee-jerk reaction to this. It seemed that folks were getting used to how FA was policing this policy, then WHAM, suddenly now it's actually not good enough. You have to go further. It's limiting you even more, taking away the ability and choice to do so on here.



Okay. Once more. Everything is not  okay. Maybe if I repeat that enough you will mature.

Secondly, let us have a quick talk about oppression. FA is not going to your house and arresting you for drawing sonic art that looks underage. Hell. You are free to post it! But you are also free to have it removed by the admins, and your account banned.

Here is why. Actions have consequences. Creating art is an action. See where I am going with this? Your argument is therefore silly. You are not being oppressed. At worst you are being censored, which is a societal norm in this mixed up world of ours. As sites and environment's grow, their rules must change to suit it. If you really have issues with this, your option is to quit FA and start your own site. You would make the rules, and accept the consequences of those decisions. 

Because, the fundamental basis of freedom is just that. You are free to accept responsibility.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> I understand that you (like many people here) don't want to have to vastly alter their content to make it fit the rules. I really wish we didn't have to go this way but again, we can't help it. That said I'm just going to imagine for a moment that I opened up a ticket and your image is up for question. Does it pass as being as mature enough or not? The answer would be almost but no. The character has some very obvious adult things going on. It also has some very...child like things as well.
> 
> Adult: I see the beginning of a developed hip area, and a well developed bust.
> Child: I see a very child-like hair style that is often associated with kids and young teens. Also the legs still appear somewhat juvenile although the hips do not.
> ...





Thank you for at least being honest with me. You can honestly see WHY this topic is a big issue for me, as while we are dealing with Sonic as a franchise, this also affects things like my character there.

My mental process is going that, yes, in some physical aspects, she does have child-like qualities (although, I will say that hairstyle alone is not enough; full grown women sometimes do wear their hair in styles like this. They just happen to have more of a 'young girl' tilt).

But, some real, actual people who are of legal age do have youthful, young appearances that gives off the idea of not being legal...but are.

If I may, I'd like to show you the other couple of pictures I've had of her done, and see what initial response would be.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Okay. Once more. Everything is not  okay. Maybe if I repeat that enough you will mature.
> 
> Secondly, let us have a quick talk about oppression. FA is not going to your house and arresting you for drawing sonic art that looks underage. Hell. You are free to post it! But you are also free to have it removed by the admins, and your account banned.
> 
> ...



Wow, you're not even worth responding to any more, since you can't handle yourself without being insulting.

I never once said that EVERYTHING is okay. But art is art, and that can be determined by anyone in any number of ways. I am using the word oppression in a slightly dramatic fashion; I get tired of always typing out 'being censored'

And that said, it is still the act of oppressing, to hold down one style from people. There are backlashes to not only my actions, but the actions of the Admins and the Mods as well. The site can actually come to greater harm from it. Believe it or not, I want FA to stay!


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## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

@*The Lunatic25
*While I understand Yuuri tends to draw in a near chibi like style, its often best to have the character redone or another picture to SHOW she is of age to which will help buffer showing she is of age if there was a chance an admin was called on ya as like I did with these two pics (1 2) of this character NSFWOVYE
For artist it just mean a lil bit of an...tweak to their style, while maintaining it. I do believe one can do the canon sonic style if they found a way to tweak it if not like what kayla-na did


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Wow, you're not even worth responding to any more, since you can't handle yourself without being insulting.
> 
> And that said, it is still the act of oppressing


Then you are on the wrong forum, god help you if other regulars come on, cause you'll get torn a new asshole.

Okay, hold on, it's not persecution.  A example of persecution would be in North Korea they imprison political opposition.  Or in some countries they execute gays.  Or in Iran they kill you if you convert away from islam.
So you are saying that a private website disallowing a art style is as bad as "corrective" rape of gays?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 9, 2012)

In some ways while I agree I don't like having to succumb to censoring art out on the site but have our hands tied because of money and blacklisting reasons...

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fucking glad I'm not oppressed for art ideas. I got too many other ideas to draw that aren't porn, don't have to worry about it being banned on FA and have made money for (like portraiture) because if I had to argue about what I have to draw all day, it's such a waste of time I...could be drawing


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> @*The Lunatic25
> *While I understand Yuuri tends to draw in a near chibi like style, its often best to have the character redone or another picture to SHOW she is of age to which will help buffer showing she is of age if there was a chance an admin was called on ya as like I did with these two pics (1 2) of this character NSFWOVYE
> For artist it just mean a lil bit of an...tweak to their style, while maintaining it. I do believe one can do the canon sonic style if they found a way to tweak it if not like what kayla-na did



yeah, and I've had a few other pieces of her done, which I think probably give the better idea. Let me see here...

Should probably note these are kind of NSFW, just as a head's up to anyone.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6368918/

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6506256/

I'm fairly confident that both of these are perfectly fine, but again..it's better to hear it and know it NOW, than having those unpleasant surprises later.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> And that said, it is still the act of oppressing, to hold down one style from people. There are backlashes to not only my actions, but the actions of the Admins and the Mods as well. The site can actually come to greater harm from it. Believe it or not, I want FA to stay!



(First off, this is a forum. I cannot read your sarcasm or dramatic flair. I read what you write.)

If FA were the government, instead of a private institution, I'd almost concede that to you. Except once more. They are not holding a style away from people. FA is saying "We are not a site where you find this stuff." That is why it is in their AUP. They have reasons for that, financial and legal. 

Yes, the site can come from great harm, but that is their decision. You would truly be curtailing freedom by saying that they cannot ban and block items.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> Thank you for at least being honest with me. You can honestly see WHY this topic is a big issue for me, as while we are dealing with Sonic as a franchise, this also affects things like my character there.
> 
> My mental process is going that, yes, in some physical aspects, she does have child-like qualities (although, I will say that hairstyle alone is not enough; full grown women sometimes do wear their hair in styles like this. They just happen to have more of a 'young girl' tilt).
> 
> ...



You're welcome. I appreciate that you are being honest like-wise. In the long run we will always have to deal with this complication. It's not fair to people who have smaller bodied characters. We will do what we can to create a fair compromise and maximize understanding. I do understand (as do the staff) that not all people are the age they look. I fall into that myself being this short tiny person that everyone assumes is a teenager.

I'd have no issue looking over other examples. If they are mature in nature remember to put NSFW next to the link when you post it.



The Lunatic25 said:


> yeah, and I've had a few other pieces of  her done, which I think probably give the better idea. Let me see  here...
> 
> Should probably note these are kind of NSFW, just as a head's up to anyone.
> 
> ...




Derp apologies that it takes a bit for my responses. Looking at both those examples...the first one has a little more development with the legs. It's even more clear and well defined in the second. If all of the pictures involved a body like that where the legs continue to have good definition you'll be good to go. Just be wary of any examples that start to lean towards that thinner muscle/fat mass that made things edgy in the first picture.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> You're welcome. I appreciate that you are being honest like-wise. In the long run we will always have to deal with this complication. It's not fair to people who have smaller bodied characters. We will do what we can to create a fair compromise and maximize understanding. I do understand (as do the staff) that not all people are the age they look. I fall into that myself being this short tiny person that everyone assumes is a teenager.
> 
> I'd have no issue looking over other examples. If they are mature in nature remember to put NSFW next to the link when you post it.



They are most definitely NSFW, as I stated in my previous post above.

But just to make it easier to find, I'll repost them.

NSFW folks.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6506256/

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6368918/


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## synofienpw (Feb 9, 2012)

Hello everyone! i believe i can solve this issue.  The big issue here seems that there are no rules yet for how to determine if an image is adult and that it is merely admins working on their personal opinion.  so i provide this.
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/1980s/media/AM83-16.pdf
i would say you can establish a certain number of standard deviations away from this average that you can stray.  then everyone will be happy.  
happy measuring!


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> They are most definitely NSFW, as I stated in my previous post above.
> 
> But just to make it easier to find, I'll repost them.
> 
> ...



Going to quote and repost this to be sure you see it: 

Derp apologies that it takes a bit for my responses. Looking at both  those examples...the first one has a little more development with the  legs. It's even more clear and well defined in the second. If all of the  pictures involved a body like that where the legs continue to have good  definition you'll be good to go. Just be wary of any examples that  start to lean towards that thinner muscle/fat mass that made things edgy  in the first picture.

*It's a given that they need to continue to have that decently well developed chest+torso area. This gives enough clues to make the character mature enough.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Going to quote and repost this to be sure you see it:
> 
> Derp apologies that it takes a bit for my responses. Looking at both  those examples...the first one has a little more development with the  legs. It's even more clear and well defined in the second. If all of the  pictures involved a body like that where the legs continue to have good  definition you'll be good to go. Just be wary of any examples that  start to lean towards that thinner muscle/fat mass that made things edgy  in the first picture.
> 
> *It's a given that they need to continue to have that decently well developed chest+torso area. This gives enough clues to make the character mature enough.



It's okay, I didn't realize you had modified your post above.

My only thing is that sometimes, there really are folks that just built small, no matter what. Miu's Jam is a decent example of this, but I do believe it was agreed that she has enough qualities that display her as being a woman as opposed to a little girl.

I definitely think there's some differences here...her thighs are a bit thicker, legs extended some, torso extended, breasts swollen a bit...though, I wouldn't think having a massive double-d chest would be a requirement, it does definitely show here.

Thanks a lot for responding to me, it's actually refreshing to get some feedback on this for a change.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 9, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> It's okay, I didn't realize you had modified your post above.
> 
> My only thing is that sometimes, there really are folks that just built small, no matter what. Miu's Jam is a decent example of this, but I do believe it was agreed that she has enough qualities that display her as being a woman as opposed to a little girl.
> 
> ...



Yeah some people irl are just that way. All we can do is try to create a compromise that keeps the site up, and gives users as much flexibility as we can. Also, yes it was decided that in Miu Jam's case there are enough features that she is within the rules. 

That said I'm happy to be able to help clear things up for you.


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## Kitoth (Feb 9, 2012)

As I said in the original Sciggles image post regarding all this, it comes down to being this:

Sciggles image was just one of many possible ways to have official sonic characters be aged up for adult and mature artwork, not a rule. It was never the intent of being the only way to draw adult Sonic based fan-art. 

The Fact is that the Fa is a web site that can be seen as supporting adult artwork of minors even if they are not human, and so they need to take steps whether we like them or not so the site is not shit down. Sure there might be some stuff that the owners and staff do not like personally but that is not what this is about. It about simply making sure all artists have a place they can post the majority of their work without having possible have real like back-lash for the site or themselves over artwork that can be considered child porn. FA is just making sure this site we all use does not be forced to shut down as well preventing anyone from the authorities on them. 

They are doing it to protect everyone not just cause they can. and as I said before on the image comment section. If you are concerned about images in your gallery that may be seen as a controversial image in this mater all you need to do is something very simple. Ask a Fa staff to look at your image(s) or gallery and see what is said and tlka to them about what can be done to keep that image on site. Its not that hard to ask them for their help.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 9, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Yeah some people irl are just that way. All we can do is try to create a compromise that keeps the site up, and gives users as much flexibility as we can. Also, yes it was decided that in Miu Jam's case there are enough features that she is within the rules.
> 
> That said I'm happy to be able to help clear things up for you.



Right, I can understand that. I really do appreciate ya being patient and helpful in this, as I had asked others the same thing about my character there, and received no responses back to it. Which wasn't helpful in the least bit.

I certainly don't mind the staff doing what's necessary to keep the site going, but there's definitely things that need work on. This topic is one of those, and I think having a blind 'guide' to it may not be in the best interest instead of case-by-case.

But thanks a lot man. I can certainly see why folks have concerns, why the reaction was so powerful. But thanks again for helping out.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

Kitoth said:


> As I said in the original Sciggles image post regarding all this, it comes down to being this:
> 
> Sciggles image was just one of many possible ways to have official sonic characters be aged up for adult and mature artwork, not a rule. It was never the intent of being the only way to draw adult Sonic based fan-art.
> 
> ...


yes this true, its only one example. I'm sure if anything folks who draw in the sonic style or their own version of it could even provide how they age up the characters. This can easily go to other groups of certain styles that makes it hard to show that the character is of age. This should poke those other folks to stop and think and not go "whelp not my problem I dont draw in a sonic style"


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## Morticia (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Easy, if it looks like a kid it'll be treated as such.
> 
> Cause you honestly expect the admin staff to go out and read the age of EVERY last character on the planet?
> Just cause someone claims their character is above 18 doesn't mean they are.
> ...



I know this is from like 4 pages back but seriously.

Good logic there, Tex. So here we are again because now artists are being FORCED to change their style because OH MY GOD TOO KAWAII DESU MUST BE CHILD BANNED


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## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Morticia said:


> I know this is from like 4 pages back but seriously.
> 
> Good logic there, Tex. So here we are again because now artists are being FORCED to change their style because OH MY GOD TOO KAWAII DESU MUST BE CHILD BANNED



Tex. Ha. Good one Champ.

Now, how is FA forcing artists to change their style? Do they sit over their shoulders with machine guns (funny mental image there) and point where the boobies should go? No. Instead they are saying that your KAWAII DESSU FREAKY DEAKY CHILD BAN SEX stuff, doesn't have a home on FA. That is why they have an AUP. If they didn't, it would just be free reign. Well, it isn't. So go to the freaky deaky child sex forum and post it there.

That isn't force really force, eh? If ya don't like a site's rules, you can find another. And if no site shows your work go make your own.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Morticia said:


> I know this is from like 4 pages back but seriously.
> 
> Good logic there, *Tex*. So here we are again because now artists are being FORCED to change their style because OH MY GOD TOO KAWAII DESU MUST BE CHILD BANNED


Fifty dollars says you think I have a southern accent.

I think you are missing the point.
Porn of characters that appear underage are allowed to stay -> The account through which Fa receives funds to run the site gets frozen -> Fa no longer has a way to pay their bills -> Fa goes dark.

It's about money, _*not*_ art style.


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## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

I still think just banning porn of Tails, Cream and all the truly young ones would be better than all this nit picking. :\


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## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> I still think just banning porn of Tails, Cream and all the truly young ones would be better than all this nit picking. :\


That's a double standard.  So banning porn of a 11 year old, but not banning porn of another underage character isn't a double standard how?


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> That's a double standard.  So banning porn of a 11 year old, but not banning porn of another underage character isn't a double standard how?



What other underage character?


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> What other underage character?


The only adult sonic characters canonically are shadow, but that's because he was in cryogenic freeze for god know how long and rouge.
Other than that if you look at canon style sonic porn, congratulations you are looking at cub porn.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

Isn't Sonic, Amy, and Knuckles 16+ though? I'm sayin let them be kept but ban Tails and Cream who at like 8.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> Isn't Sonic, Amy, and Knuckles 16+ though?


Not even close... Let me put it this way if Sonic, Amy or Knuckles were real and you had sex with them you'd be looking at 15 to 25 years in prison.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> The only adult sonic characters canonically are shadow, but that's because he was in cryogenic freeze for god know how long.
> Other than that if you look at canon style sonic porn, congratulations you are looking at cub porn.


more clostly to shota porn as shota is for teens, but I shouldnt care i'm in anime, furries havent come up with their equivalent to that yet
PS sonic and Knuckles are 17, Amy Rose is the one that have the Split canon of 12 and 17


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> furries havent come up with their equivalent to that yet


Don't say that, they'll view it as a challenge.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Not even close... Let me put it this way if Sonic, Amy or Knuckles were real and you had sex with them you'd be looking at 15 to 25 years in prison.




But aren't they usually drawn with each other? Unless its more the fact that an adult is looking at underage porn than underage kids are involved in the act.

Also would age of consent change anything?


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> But aren't they usually drawn with each other?


Do you even know what a hypothetical situation is?


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> Unless its more the fact that an adult is looking at underage porn than underage kids are involved in the act.
> 
> Also would age of consent change anything?



I am quoting you for a very specific reason. Re-read what you are asking and think a second. Your location says you are in america.

Is it wrong for an adult to look at underage porn?
Is it wrong for children to be depicted in underage porn?

The fact of the matter is... yes. Very, very, very much so. Unless you like prison. Plus age of consent would depend on where the server and the owners of the site are at, as states laws would then apply.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Do you even know what a hypothetical situation is?



I do but what does that have to do with anything?


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 9, 2012)

I came back to this and read some bits of discussion involving characters that look underage, but are actually old enough. How does this have any relevance to avoiding removal?

Age of fictional characters is somewhat irrelevant, it's just another sign-post. It doesn't matter if the character is older... if they look underage, and are in a porn image, what sort of fetish do you think they are appealing to? The same one FA is trying to get rid of.

FA should neither support porn of characters who are stated as underage, or porn of characters who appear underage. The former, you can bullshit their age up(if they already appear older); the latter, you just can't upload. These might seem more like technicalities, but they are exactly what could get FA into hot water.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> I am quoting you for a very specific reason. Re-read what you are asking and think a second. Your location says you are in america.
> 
> Is it wrong for an adult to look at underage porn?
> Is it wrong for children to be depicted in underage porn?
> ...




Ahhh okay. I understand now the whole mess up with my statement now. Sorry about that.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> I do but what does that have to do with anything?


I was illustrating that sonic and company are underage and therefore would fall under the ban hammer for canon porn.

This whole thing isn't even changing any rules, it's just fa enforcing a rule already on the book.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Don't say that, they'll view it as a challenge.


it would help
stop having older teens being listed as CUBS
but dumb fuck furries rather have everything below 18 cubs it seems


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> it would help
> stop having older teens being listed as CUBS
> but dumb fuck furries rather have everything below 18 cubs it seems



You are aware that you have to be 18 years old to be in pornography right?


----------



## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> The only adult sonic characters canonically are shadow, but that's because he was in cryogenic freeze for god know how long and rouge.



And Wave {remember the little thing I posted earlier displaying how she, an adult character, breaks every rule?}, Storm, Vector, Vanilla, Big and pretty much everyone in the Archie continuity.

Also, lol @ people confusing teens for little children. Hell, in most of America, you most certainly would not get 15 to 25 in prison for fucking most of the cast were they real and able to give consent, seeing as most states have age of consent set to 16 and the majority of the cast is over 16 now. And yeah yeah, "You have to be 18 to be in porn"--and American constitution also rules that there's nothing wrong with drawn porn of underage characters because no one's getting fucking hurt in the process of making it.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> And Wave {remember the little thing I posted earlier displaying how she, an adult character, breaks every rule?}, Storm, Vector, Vanilla, Big and pretty much everyone in the Archie continuity.


Sorry I don't know much about sonic, cause I don't shove loads of crap cleverly within a ds cartridge into my portable video game players.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> You are aware that you have to be 18 years old to be in pornography right?


you are aware as there is something called a childand something called a teenager right
but of course, really I forgot that we no longer use teenager, everyone below 18 is stuck to child till they do


----------



## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Sorry I don't know much about sonic, cause I don't shove loads of crap cleverly within a ds cartridge into my portable video game players.



Okay, so you admit to knowing next to zip about the franchise. Good to know, cause that pretty much invalidates anything you have to say regarding it.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> you are aware as there is something called a childand something called a teenager right
> but of course, really I forgot that we no longer use teenager, everyone below 18 is stuck to child till they do



You are catching on. XD It is a magical thing called... the law. You know how they say "I fought the law and the law won?" Exactly.

So you see. Because FA is an American site... do you catch my drift why it isn't okay? How very ethnocentric of us to not let teens get into pornography, I know. Tut tut.


----------



## ElCid (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> You are catching on. XD It is a magical thing called... the law. You know how they say "I fought the law and the law won?" Exactly.
> 
> So you see. Because FA is an American site... do you catch my drift why it isn't okay? How very ethnocentric of us to not let teens get into pornography, I know. Tut tut.



And American constitution rules that drawn porn of fictional underage characters is okay because no one's getting harmed in the making of it.

Oops. :3

As others pointed out already, it's about monetary support, not the law.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> And American constitution rules that drawn porn of fictional underage characters is okay because no one's getting harmed in the making of it.
> 
> Oops. :3
> 
> As others pointed out already, it's about monetary support, not the law.



Well, first off, it wouldn't be the constitution that said that.  I'm pretty sure there isn't a pornography amendment. But there were judicial rulings. Unfortunately the states are getting ookey on that. Which means the rules are muddled.

Secondly, the entire point of that rant was on the ideas of teens being considered children. Well the US government says they don't get special porn treatment. Crysix was defending a japanese concept of teenage porn for teenagers. (In fact if you actually read the argument it was why under 18 was considered cub)

So... Suck my arguments.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> You are catching on. XD It is a magical thing called... the law. You know how they say "I fought the law and the law won?" Exactly.
> 
> So you see. Because FA is an American site... do you catch my drift why it isn't okay? How very ethnocentric of us to not let teens get into pornography, I know. Tut tut.



something deep DOWN tells me you didnt catch my post towards Cannonfodder, you know how anime itself classified young children art as Loli(fun fact loli doesnt equal automatically porn) and teenager art as Shota. probably cause ya lack a few cells didnt notice how in the furry fandom every single character whos age is below 18 seemingly get tagged with Cub.
but thats just me suddenly asking aloud "why doesnt furry who tend to mimic anime have their own word for young teenagers"


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Okay, so you admit to knowing next to zip about the franchise. Good to know,* cause that pretty much invalidates anything you have to say regarding it.*


BINGO! You just gave me bingo on my furry hypocrisy bingo card.
Oh oh wait lemme get another card before you continue.
By that same card cause you know jack shit about mlp: fim that would invalidate your previous arguments by the same token.  Meaning my point automatically wins if you take this route... which would invalidate this comment since it builds on your beginning statement, which would make it a paradox.


lostcat461 said:


> You are catching on. XD It is a magical thing called... the law. You know how they say "I fought the law and the law won?" Exactly.
> So you see. Because FA is an American site... do you catch my drift why it isn't okay? How very ethnocentric of us to not let teens get into pornography, I know. Tut tut.


_*IT'S NOT ABOUT THE GODDAMN LAW! It's about money.*_
And yes the 7 point font was required, because the law has been brought into this atleast fifty times, even though it's been said a million fucking times that the reason why fa banned cub was for financial reason; and at this point I think the only way to get it through the average fa user's skull is to literally drill it into their skull.


----------



## Shad (Feb 9, 2012)

Asshole-mode, activate! LET THE PURGE BEGIN! SCIGGLES, I CHOOSE YOU!

All Sonic, all NSFW:
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/2910826/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/2567304/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/2557786/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/2270652/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/6220555/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/4746226/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/4234419/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/6197514/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/6569781/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/5157704/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/6160819/
https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/5830874/

Wait a minute...
https://otter.furaffinity.net/search/
*sonic*: found 80008 times in 44749 documents

Hoo-boy, this could take a while... and that's just the ones that are tagged with "sonic", and not including the ones that are improperly tagged. Well Sciggles, you made your bed, now it's time to sleep in it. HOP TO IT!


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> "why doesnt furry who tend to mimic anime have their own word for young teenagers"



Nope didn't.   Oh and probably cause unlike the anime fandom we aren't made up largely by teenage girls. Just 50 year old men wanting to be them. *inserts drum roll*

Oh, and CannonFodder. Didn't mean why they banned cub, but why under 18 is considered cub.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Nope didn't.   Oh and probably cause unlike the anime fandom we aren't made up largely by teenage girls. Just 50 year old men wanting to be them. *inserts drum roll*
> 
> Oh, and CannonFodder. Didn't mean why they banned cub, but why under 18 is considered cub.


to which I point out then why does we as people then use child and teenager to denote age groups if teenage isnt needed if everyone below 18 is and will always be a child then.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 9, 2012)

Cause you can't let children drive?


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 9, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Nope didn't.   Oh and probably cause unlike the anime fandom we aren't made up largely by teenage girls. Just 50 year old men wanting to be them. *inserts drum roll*
> 
> Oh, and CannonFodder. Didn't mean why they banned cub, but why under 18 is considered cub.


Yeah, you're not funny.

Regardless it's still banned.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 10, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Cause you can't let children drive?


but by your words children can drive, the word teenager isnt needed to denote an age group, it can only be child and adult


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

Well this is getting a little derailing. But: We define children as: "A young human being below the age of full physical development or below the legal age of majority." Legal age of majority in US. 18. Teenager: "A person aged from 13 to 19 years."  

Therefore a teenager is still a child but a child is not a teenager. It is that whole square and rectangle thing all over again.

Now, sonic and his characters in some media= underage. Now the interesting point came up when someone mentioned the archie"verse" making them adult. So, it then becomes, as Sciggles said, how they are drawn that is the rub.


----------



## Toxicko (Feb 10, 2012)

The thing I really find ridiculous here now is that most people seem to be assuming all of the Sonic artists want to draw the characters as is because they're cub lovers and want Sonic cub porn. I am preeeetty sure that's not what most people are getting at. People want to be able to have the freedom to age up characters how they see fit. As shown before, the average Sonic body style =/= cub because most adults in the franchise look /the exact same way the characters in the late teens do/. Wanting to age up characters and keep them in their style, which is, suprise, more appealing to some people than making them human like. I don't see how something like this http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images/8/88/413px-ASR_Knuckles.png looks like a cub at all. I really don't.

it's not that people want to draw them like cubs. It's that they already look old enough as is.

And honestly I don't understand why Sonic art is just a big deal? People aren't going to look at the site and go, OH NO SONIC PORN, they're gonna think, why are all these dogs fucking, etc


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Toxicko said:


> The thing I really find ridiculous here now is that most people seem to be assuming all of the Sonic artists want to draw the characters as is because they're cub lovers and want Sonic cub porn. I am preeeetty sure that's not what most people are getting at. People want to be able to have the freedom to age up characters how they see fit. As shown before, the average Sonic body style =/= cub because most adults in the franchise look /the exact same way the characters in the late teens do/. Wanting to age up characters and keep them in their style, which is, suprise, more appealing to some people than making them human like. I don't see how something like this http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images/8/88/413px-ASR_Knuckles.png looks like a cub at all. I really don't.
> 
> it's not that people want to draw them like cubs. It's that they already look old enough as is.
> 
> And honestly I don't understand why Sonic art is just a big deal? People aren't going to look at the site and go, OH NO SONIC PORN, they're gonna think, why are all these dogs fucking, etc


Cub is a all around terminology.


----------



## IS (Feb 10, 2012)

It's really sad to see so many people taking pot-shots at each other over their opinions, and seeing this thread conversation go in circles. Sciggles has admitted that while she didn't handle this situation better than she should have, she's taken this as a learning experience. From what I can tell, she only has good intentions in trying to remove "cub art" from the site, but while she has good intentions, I believe that Sonic characters are age-neutral, and their age cannot be defined by simply looking at a picture due to their stylistic body types, as people have mentioned the Wave the Swallow example; also Cream's mother Vanilla the Rabbit is a great example of this as well, especially compared side-by-side. I also believe that it'll be nigh impossible to manage and sift though all the hundreds of thousands of submissions on this site as it is with only a hand full of staff, and place judgement on every one that is brought to attention.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

IS said:


> I also believe that it'll be nigh impossible to manage and sift though all the hundreds of thousands of submissions on this site as it is with only a hand full of staff, and place judgement on every one that is brought to attention.


All it'd really take is one admin going out of their mind with all the constant screams of persecution and a day of a psychotic breakdown frag-n-spree to fix this problem.

Hell all you need to do is search "sonic" with safe-search off and fucking bam.


----------



## Kaamos (Feb 10, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> you know how anime itself classified young children art as Loli(fun fact loli doesnt equal automatically porn) and teenager art as Shota.



Shota isn't teenagers, shota is little boys, loli is little girls. You're probably thinking of Shonen. I understand what you mean, though.


----------



## IS (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Hell all you need to do is search "sonic" with safe-search off and fucking bam.



Yeah, but this won't just pertain to Sonic art only, I would imagine it would have to be of anything that would have underage characters in sexual situations. It could be of any character from any show. Even _Sherlock Holmes in the 22nd Century_, or _Jem_.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

The last round of posts remind me of homeless people talking to people on bluetooth headsets.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> The last round of posts remind me of homeless people talking to people on bluetooth headsets.


Which ones remind you of homeless people?  Cause if that's me that means I get to break the ends off beer bottles to fight, steal wallets and throw bricks at people.


----------



## Shad (Feb 10, 2012)

So I got a question: do staff members get compensated for mental scarring? If they don't, they should. :V Now it's time for the annual sonic porn scavanger hunt! First person to find the image of sonic licking his own shit off tails dick gets... A FREE COOKIE!!


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

White chocolate macadamia or no dice.


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

Shad said:


> So I got a question: do staff members get compensated for mental scarring? If they don't, they should. :V Now it's time for the annual sonic porn scavanger hunt! First person to find the image of sonic licking his own shit off tails dick gets... A FREE COOKIE!!



A free Oh Henry bar seems more appropriate.


----------



## IS (Feb 10, 2012)

It's bad to feed animals people food.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

Yes but dogs can eat white chocolate. So... oh snap!


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 10, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Yes but dogs can eat white chocolate. So... oh snap!



They can?? :O


----------



## Meredith (Feb 10, 2012)

Would the easiest solution to this just be to ban ALL art that looks underage? I know this might hurt a lot of artists and popular furries and drive some away from FA, but as people have said, it's about money, not the law and this way, FA will be safe with it comes to the ad companies and such, right?


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Meredith said:


> Would the easiest solution to this just be to ban ALL art that looks underage? I know this might hurt a lot of artists and popular furries and drive some away from FA, but as people have said, it's about money, not the law and this way, FA will be safe with it comes to the ad companies and such, right?


That would be the easiest and simplest solution, so no it won't come to pass.


----------



## synofienpw (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> That would be the easiest and simplest solution, so no it won't come to pass.



yes PERFECTLY simple to define what "looks" cub.  There are only two ways to do that.  
1.personal opinion which varies admin to admin and will cause all kinds of hell because there are no rules or standards
OR 
2. scientifically.  which will take hours and hours per image to calculate values.  but would be accurate and based on biology
if you really want to try the only true way of doing it good luck
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/1980s/media/AM83-16.pdf
here's all the information you need to do it


----------



## Shad (Feb 10, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> A free Oh Henry bar seems more appropriate.


I laughed so hard that I gave myself a nosebleed... :C


----------



## Shireton (Feb 10, 2012)

Sciggles is making it a rule that cartoon anatomy has to be real life anatomy instead or else you're drawing child porn.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Shireton said:


> Sciggles is making it a rule that cartoon anatomy has to be real life anatomy instead or else you're drawing child porn.


It's not about damn cartoons or art styles, it's about money for the tenth million time.
How do you expect fa to function without money?  Magic?  Materia?  Bananas?


----------



## Cyril (Feb 10, 2012)

ElCid said:


> And while you're at it, best start wiping Miu's gallery--Jam could easily pass for a 10-year-old, so we can't be too careful! Oh, and Drake Fenwick? Huge amount of sexualized young characters, better get rid of that guy! Pokemon? Who knows what age they are, better get rid of every Pokemon you see just in case! Digimon? They're just as ambiguous as Pokemon! Oops, there goes Dragoneer's gallery! Anime-style art in general? Huge eyes, weird proportions and childlike faces everywhere! Everything must go! Ponies? If they aren't resdesigned into surreal, voluptuous, small-eyed, dainty-hooved messes, might as well not post 'em at all or risk being banned!
> 
> See how flawed this is?


Flawed? Sounds *PERFECT* to me. I'm all for this plan.


ElCid said:


> Good job, CannonFodder and Trpdwarf, you may have both just become enemies of Miu's whole fanbase.


\o/


ElCid said:


> Wow. You think a prolific furry artist, the owner  of Club Stripes, is just "some idiot who draws porn". Just...  WOW.


A profilic furry artist is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Garbage men do more service for the world than any furry artist.


The Lunatic25 said:


> Yeah, and that would be the death of the  site. People would move on to where they could do things like that, and  drop off FA like flies.
> 
> If all artwork was banned like that, and your'e just left with 'general  audiences' artwork, then people lose a lot of what they came here  for.


Hey.
Hey guess what.
Not everyone is here to fap. 
*keeps the mature filter on*
Also:
*you're
To be honest if the porn crowd left FA I would be the happiest person alive.


The Lunatic25 said:


> Wow, you're not even worth responding to  any more, since you can't handle yourself without being  insulting.


>more insulting than anything lostcat has said

Fun read. Hope there's more in the morning~


----------



## CerbrusNL (Feb 10, 2012)

Meredith said:


> Would the easiest solution to this just be to ban ALL art that looks underage? I know this might hurt a lot of artists and popular furries and drive some away from FA, but as people have said, it's about money, not the law and this way, FA will be safe with it comes to the ad companies and such, right?


Actually, we've done that already.
If a character in a submission looks underage, it better not be a mature/adult submission.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Shad said:


> So I got a question: do staff members get compensated for mental scarring? If they don't, they should. :V Now it's time for the annual sonic porn scavanger hunt! First person to find the image of sonic licking his own shit off tails dick gets... A FREE COOKIE!!


I still think the admins need to channel their inner Schwarzenegger and go on a mass fragging underage porn spree.
Dragoneer, "Remember when I said I wasn't going to ban you for posting underage porn?"
cub porn artist, "Yeah, that's right you did"
Dragoneer, "I lied"
cub porn artist, "Oh shit, that was aweso-*banned*


CerbrusNL said:


> Actually, we've done that already.
> If a character in a submission looks underage, it better not be a mature/adult submission.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoW9czgQBqE


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 10, 2012)

Not to start anything but if its about the money and FA would be closed down, how is Inkbunny still alive if they allow cub?


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> Not to start anything but if its about the money and FA would be closed down, how is Inkbunny still alive if they allow cub?


The short version is that they have a completely different system to gain money, they sell art prints, they get their income through that.  Before you ask Fa _*can't*_ switch over to how inkbunny does it.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> The short version is that they have a completely different system to gain money, they sell art prints, they get their income through that.  Before you ask Fa _*can't*_ switch over to how inkbunny does it.



I thought their printing was shut down until they found another money company.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> I thought their printing was shut down until they found another money company.


That's old news, they already found one.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> That's old news, they already found one.



actually ignore this post.

good for inkbunny for finding another company.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> cant FA just use the same money company then?


No, apples and oranges basically.

They have about as much in common as bonds and money orders.


----------



## MrChocolate (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> No, apples and oranges basically.



ah okay


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

MrChocolate said:


> ah okay


Basically cub porn and such will never come back so long as fa wishes to continue to exist.


----------



## Bluflare (Feb 10, 2012)

Well before this thread backfires and lock itself into nothingness.

Pretty much all you have to do is claim that the sonic characters you draw suffer from dwarfism, and pretty much just say for cream is that she never grew big tits just A cup tits, and tails genitals have grown about 7 inches. That is pretty much it. Hell many furries have probrably used medical conditions before on some of their fursonas.

I mean the staff pretty much fell for (chronologically over the age of 18 ) which has proven successful plenty of times. And when  I mean plenty I mean plenty they all went full derp. so don't worry folks the porn is capable of staying just use that as a way to say to them.

"Hey the characters stay the way they stay, and you don't have much of a say."


----------



## ElCid (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> you know jack shit about mlp: fim



And you're now officially talking out of your ass.


----------



## Shireton (Feb 10, 2012)

The less I know about My Little Pony, the happier I am.


----------



## ElCid (Feb 10, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Now, sonic and his characters in some media= underage. Now the interesting point came up when someone mentioned the archie"verse" making them adult. So, it then becomes, as Sciggles said, how they are drawn that is the rub.



And wanna know how they're drawn in the Archie continuity as adults?

Exactly the way they look in the games.

Again, oops.


----------



## ElCid (Feb 10, 2012)

Shad said:


> Asshole-mode, activate! LET THE PURGE BEGIN! SCIGGLES, I CHOOSE YOU!
> 
> All Sonic, all NSFW:
> https://otter.furaffinity.net/view/2910826/
> ...



Hi, please step forward to receive your gold star.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

ElCid said:


> And wanna know how they're drawn in the Archie continuity as adults?
> 
> Exactly the way they look in the games.
> 
> Again, oops.



Oops is for poops.

Think about what I said. Now. You have a character who is both presented as underage and overage. That means there is no official "canon" to establish it. Therefore the only way you can judge it is the appearance of the art itself. Even then it will be subjective. Its all subjective. It is a subjective  problem that gets a subjective answer. Therefore if the sonic boner art looks like its pedo, it gets ban hammered.


----------



## Ozriel (Feb 10, 2012)

Now there's poop slinging...oh boy..


----------



## triage (Feb 10, 2012)

and nothing of value was lost


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## Waffles (Feb 10, 2012)

Let's just remove elcid from this, as he's the main one trying to make a flimsy """"point"""" and just stirring up the unneccesary BAWWWWW...


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 10, 2012)

This grew too many pages for me to read since my last post. But I'm curious about how easily admins dismiss the "style" or "shapeshifter" arguments. What if someone drew a picture that looked totally adult in the proportions but, in the description, wrote that one of the characters was actually a child that had shapeshifted or developed strangely? Or what if there were an alien race that had human adult proportions as kids and child proportions in their adult form? Would those be judged on their appearances or would the artist descriptions suddenly be more important than the visuals?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

Waffles said:


> Let's just remove elcid from this, as he's the main one trying to make a flimsy """"point"""" and just stirring up the unneccesary BAWWWWW...



Too late, another challenger has entered the fray ....

Oops forgot. One thing about banning certain characters from being drawn...well if someone draws and adult version of that character. By adult I mean one that has been "aged up" they also can't post that and...I dunno...that's also a problem.

I mentioned a few pages ago DA will ban any artwork featuring characters that are kids. Example is Lisa Simpson. Someone drew her full grown as an adult and that artwork was still banned. It was just nudity/cheesecake.


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## Waffles (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> This grew too many pages for me to read since my last post. But I'm curious about how easily admins dismiss the "style" or "shapeshifter" arguments. What if someone drew a picture that looked totally adult in the proportions but, in the description, wrote that one of the characters was actually a child that had shapeshifted or developed strangely? Or what if there were an alien race that had human adult proportions as kids and child proportions in their adult form? Would those be judged on their appearances or would the artist descriptions suddenly be more important than the visuals?



Try telling that to a court.
Ain't gonna work bro.


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## Shireton (Feb 10, 2012)

Waffles said:


> Try telling that to a court.
> Ain't gonna work bro.


Seeing as it isn't illegal to have drawings of underage characters, I'm sure it would work.


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## Ben (Feb 10, 2012)

Shireton said:


> Seeing as it isn't illegal to have drawings of underage characters, I'm sure it would work.



Pretty much. No one has ever been convicted under the PROTECT Act after a fair trial, or much less arrested for owning porn of underage animal people, and there's a supreme court case from 2002 that upholds "virtual" child pornography as speech. So uh, yeah.


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## Waffles (Feb 10, 2012)

Ben said:


> Pretty much. No one has ever been convicted under the PROTECT Act after a fair trial, or much less arrested for owning porn of underage animal people, and there's a supreme court case from 2002 that upholds "virtual" child pornography as speech. So uh, yeah.



I was kinda more refering to the point that a court won't believe you if you tell them a child in CP is actually a shapeshifting adult/other arguments... It's like a common sense thing. Of course it's not what they say it is, it's them trying to find a loophole.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 10, 2012)

Waffles said:
			
		

> I was kinda more refering to the point that a court won't believe you if  you tell them a child in CP is actually a shapeshifting adult/other  arguments... It's like a common sense thing. Of course it's not what  they say it is, it's them trying to find a loophole.



I think you misread me then. I said if the drawing was of visually adult characters but the description said that they were really children that had shapeshifted. It's the opposite of the style defense and interesting for when judgements are made on the description or whether they are done according to the visuals. Alternatively it could be that they would just be made to address the worse possible interpretation, which makes it amusing in that a picture might be fine on FA unless you describe what the picture is.


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## Waffles (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> I think you misread me then. I said if the drawing was of visually adult characters but the description said that they were really children that had shapeshifted. It's the opposite of the style defense and interesting for when judgements are made on the description or whether they are done according to the visuals. Alternatively it could be that they would just be made to address the worse possible interpretation, which makes it amusing in that a picture might be fine on FA unless you describe what the picture is.


No, I understood you. Even under your scenario, it wouldnt be allowed.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 10, 2012)

Waffles said:
			
		

> No, I understood you. Even under your scenario, it wouldnt be allowed.



Why not? The visuals took preference before.


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## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> This grew too many pages for me to read since my last post. But I'm curious about how easily admins dismiss the "style" or "shapeshifter" arguments. What if someone drew a picture that looked totally adult in the proportions but, in the description, wrote that one of the characters was actually a child that had shapeshifted or developed strangely? Or what if there were an alien race that had human adult proportions as kids and child proportions in their adult form? Would those be judged on their appearances or would the artist descriptions suddenly be more important than the visuals?



"Style" is garbage. It doesn't mean anything. "_Kicking puppies is just "my style", it's not fair to call me the bad guy!_"

A "shapeshifter", that is stated as underage in the the description, sounds like a problem that would be a really easy fix. I think the idea is that FA doesn't want to support art of child porn/cub porn, so if it looks or is stated as underage, that's crossing the line. In the shapeshifter case, the artist can just not state the age.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 10, 2012)

I only ask is this ruling over sonic art be put towards a general guide to what is deemed cub on FA and what is adult(like what trp did and pointed out what key things on the female body denote adult and child). I only currently seeing (SOME) Folks on the outside going "Not my problem, it deals with sonic porn. My artstyle that makes it hard to determine if the person is adult or a child in a porn pic is fine"
Then again I did ax one cub porn art when the artist used "its size difference" while on SF/inkbunny have it tagged as cub porn.
Which I have to assume the admin team IS using Inkbunny and SoFurry (if the artist in question have one or both) or even by chance e621.net to see if they are trying sneak in cub porn due to these sites stress tagging cause they run a blacklisting feature.

Or in the words of the Idola clan "Folks aren't scared of that dragon if that dragon is concentrating on one group, its better to move that dragon to the center of them all so they can all equally fear it"


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## Devious Bane (Feb 10, 2012)

> "Style" is garbage. It doesn't mean anything.


I'm inclined to agree. You can have much of the same thing done in different "styles". Simply using a particular "style" is not relevant to the nature of what is being done, only how it was done.


Heimdal said:


> I think the idea is that *FA doesn't want to support art of child porn/cub porn*


Stop right there.
FA long (understatement) supported Cub Art, presumably ever since Neercakes took charge of the site. The reason it ended up getting banned is because of the drama, controversy, and it was making it hard for FA to make a profit when their site served to host such _*opinion*_ material. That last thing was the biggest reason, not to be confused with the typical excuses, why Neercakes ended up banning it - At least this is what the community was told.


> A "shapeshifter", that is stated as underage in the the description, sounds like a problem that would be a really easy fix.


A matter of "_If it looks underage, it is._" You can say something is 500 years old, but when it looks like a toddler, it's going to be considered otherwise. Vice-versa if something looks elderly, but you state it's 5 years old.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 10, 2012)

Heimdal said:
			
		

> "Style" is garbage. It doesn't mean anything.



You obviously don't draw. Style is something. Be it musical style or artistic style or clothing style it is a reflection of the creator. It's usually needed for them to produce their best works and it's not something that can just be easily changed or dismissed. An artists style is the way that they draw things. It is ridiculous to tell people they have to draw in realistic proportions. If someone spends their time perfecting chibi art then they should be able to draw in that style.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> You obviously don't draw. Style is something. Be it musical style or artistic style or clothing style it is a reflection of the creator. It's usually needed for them to produce their best works and it's not something that can just be easily changed or dismissed. An



No. *You obviously haven't drawn enough.* Most people that cry about "it's their style" are too reliant on symbols and not actual foundational drawing. It's an excuse. It's a weak one. That's why I constantly tell beginners stop worrying about style because people already have an inherit style, and most of what is done by hobbyists is forced symbolization by copying other elements of someone's symbols they made. 

http://whitetrashpalace.deviantart.com/art/UNDERSTANDING-YOUR-STYLE-1-169660607

So yes, it's correct "Style is bullshit" especially when it's used as an excuse. El Coro has a lot of different "Styles" if you're looking at certain genre but he has is own way of approaching things which really is style. http://www.coro36ink.com/gallery/personal http://elcoro.cghub.com/images/

So yeah, maybe you're just stuck on stock symbolism.


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## Shad (Feb 10, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Hi, please step forward to receive your gold star.


I'll give that gold star back to you for totally missing the point of my post.


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## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> You obviously don't draw. Style is something. Be it musical style or artistic style or clothing style it is a reflection of the creator. It's usually needed for them to produce their best works and it's not something that can just be easily changed or dismissed. An artists style is the way that they draw things. It is ridiculous to tell people they have to draw in realistic proportions. If someone spends their time perfecting chibi art then they should be able to draw in that style.



I draw and I paint. Like, a lot. "Style" has always been the biggest blanket excuse by artists who don't think they need to improve ("it's not an error, it's my style!"). Style is just a vague general reference to observable qualities of a piece, but it doesn't mean anything until you break it down. Consider that XKCD's "style" is stickmen.

"Style" isn't a valid defense of anything. "Jagged shapes promote feelings of tension and anxiety to the viewer" is a valid argument. Note that while that is an aspect of style, it's a legitimate analysis.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> I draw and I paint. Like, a lot. "Style" has always been the biggest blanket excuse by artists who don't think they need to improve ("it's not an error, it's my style!"). Style is just a vague general reference to observable qualities of a piece, but it doesn't mean anything until you break it down. Consider that XKCD's "style" is stickmen.
> 
> "Style" isn't a valid defense of anything. "Jagged shapes promote feelings of tension and anxiety to the viewer" is a valid argument. Note that while that is an aspect of style, it's a legitimate analysis.


Keep in mind Rakuen is king of subjective arguing.

But yeah style isn't a legit argument point, because there's a ton of different explanations for it.  Is it character style?  Color style? Art style?  etc.
If someone is to argue that it's a style, they need to atleast define what the hell they are talking about.
It'd be like the police wanting a description for a car and you tell them, "It had four wheels, windows and headlights" you are going to have to have to be a little more descriptive than that.


Shireton said:


> The less I know about My Little Pony, the happier I am.


...Is it just me or are your arguments sounding less like you're defending sonic porn and more that you want to use this as a excuse for a jihad to remove bronies from the furry fandom?


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## Shad (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> ...Is it just me or are your arguments sounding less like you're defending sonic porn and more that you want to use this as a excuse for a jihad to remove bronies from the furry fandom?


Is that a bad thing?


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## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Shad said:


> Is that a bad thing?


You do realize the drama around that wasn't by the bronies, it was by the people that hate mlp: fim threatening to firebomb the artist's house?

The banner was removed early for his safety.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpikgvIUvp1qclfx9.gif

Some reason when style comes up regarding Sonic characters I think of that.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 10, 2012)

Cyril said:


> Flawed? Sounds *PERFECT!*
> 
> A profilic furry artist is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Garbage men do more service for the world than any furry artist.
> 
> ...



Two things: Art IS important. If you think that no one being artistic is important, then you should really take a look at human history and see where art has gotten us since we were living in caves.

The next is that no, not everyone is here for fapping...apparently you're one of those (btw, I type fast, sometimes I make mistakes in my typing. the ' ended up in the wrong place typing that out. Heaven forbid I or anyone make a tyo).

Here's the thing...there's been a LOT of furry sites like that. In fact, there was a whole movement dedicated to getting rid of the 'filth' of porn in the fandom, known as the Burned Furs. There was also Yerf, but a lot of these sites no longer exist.

Regardless of your personal feelings towards it, adult artwork has a place too. Maybe I worded my previous post poorly, but what I said was just in regards to removing all the porn off the site...but what if they not only did that, but all the possible fan artwork as well? Including the 'okay for all ages' stuff? What if, then, it came down to only able to draw them one particular way?

I'm exaggerating here. This is an example, but this is EXACTLY what people are afraid of, and the response is loud and noisy. People don't WANT that. They want to be as free as possible to express themselves. Banning cub art was a move made in desperation to try and save the site, but if you drive off everyone that is here, then you haven't saved a damn thing.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

*sorry there was a mishap with the quote*


The Lunatic25 said:


> They want to be as free as possible* to express themselves.* Banning cub art was a move made in desperation to try and save the site, but if you drive off everyone that is here, then you haven't saved a damn thing.


Correction they want to masturbate to something they like.

Cub porn doesn't equal the entirety of the fandom, neither does sonic porn.  Just cause one type of porn is removed doesn't mean the four horsemen of the apocalypse appear and the rapture happens.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> *sorry there was a mishap with the quote*
> 
> Correction they want to masturbate to something they like.
> 
> Cub porn doesn't equal the entirety of the fandom, neither does sonic porn.  Just cause one type of porn is removed doesn't mean the four horsemen of the apocalypse appear and the rapture happens.



You're taking part of my post, and using it out of context.

When I say the want to be as free as possible to express themselves, I mean in terms of how they shaped and design things. It was not said in regards to the cubs.

The Sciggles picture made it look and sound like there was suddenly a standardized acceptable style, and stepping outside of that wasn't acceptable. That's what caused an uproar.


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## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> *sorry there was a mishap with the quote*
> 
> Correction they want to masturbate to something they like.
> 
> Cub porn doesn't equal the entirety of the fandom, neither does sonic porn.  Just cause one type of porn is removed doesn't mean the four horsemen of the apocalypse appear and the rapture happens.



Don't you get it? The sky is falling: for-real edition! :V


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

Except that people keep using the words "Guideline" as STANDARD.
Sciggles posted a GUIDELINE.
Sciggles didn't post a STANDARD.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 10, 2012)

I understand that she wasn't posting a STANDARD, but that is how it CAME ACROSS.

You know that people will take something at face value and worry.

It's better for people to speak out now, and have it cleared up, then to take it quietly then have something happen later.


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## Shad (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> You do realize the drama around that wasn't  by the bronies, it was by the people that hate mlp: fim threatening to  firebomb the artist's house?
> 
> The banner was removed early for his safety.


I do realize that. The result of the drama is all the same.
It does make me wonder how many of those people were banned and/or arrested.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> I understand that she wasn't posting a STANDARD, but that is how it CAME ACROSS.
> 
> You know that people will take something at face value and worry.
> 
> It's better for people to speak out now, and have it cleared up, then to take it quietly then have something happen later.


You do realize that furries are going to pretend this never happened and continue to draw canon style sonic porn anyways, then when it's found out and the drawings are removed/they are banned they're going to claim that they didn't know the rules/the staff is fursecuting them/say that the staff are a bunch of trolls/say the staff are art-nazis/etc right?


Shad said:


> I do realize that. The result of the drama is all the same.
> It does make me wonder how many of those people were banned and/or arrested.


I honestly don't know cause the staff don't discuss bans with non-admins, cause that's private information.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> I understand that she wasn't posting a STANDARD, but that is how it CAME ACROSS.
> 
> You know that people will take something at face value and worry.
> 
> It's better for people to speak out now, and have it cleared up, then to take it quietly then have something happen later.



But there's been over #200 posts and you have an admin come and actually help you. Why drag it out more? You're not benefiting the argument because it's been stated we know. But it's a guideline.

I already stated that I would have held back on it because of various reasons, but what is done is done. You know that but persist in arguing about it.


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## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

The Lunatic25 said:


> I understand that she wasn't posting a STANDARD, but that is how it CAME ACROSS.
> 
> You know that people will take something at face value and worry.
> 
> It's better for people to speak out now, and have it cleared up, then to take it quietly then have something happen later.



This is acceptable. It's just too bad the response has been "THIS SUCKS AUGH!!" The guidelines do kinda suck as-is, but general blind outrage hasn't improved anything.


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## Armaetus (Feb 10, 2012)

I think she should have let someone with _better_ PR skills to have handled this and stayed in the background handling TTs for the time being. New staff should not take the task of handling a potentially explosive situation like this without some oversight beforehand.

It seems almost each time a major announcement or change in policy results in a shitstorm to some degree.

It's also stupid shit like this that makes me hate the site a little bit more every time it happens..


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> But there's been over #200 posts and you have an admin come and actually help you. Why drag it out more? You're not benefiting the argument because it's been stated we know. But it's a guideline.
> 
> I already stated that I would have held back on it because of various reasons, but what is done is done. You know that but persist in arguing about it.



I was replying back to an individual who responded to a post of mine earlier; as I was responding to you.

The Admin helped me understand some things, and helped clear up some confusion I had with a personal character. That has nothing to do with responding to someone who was pointing out a typo I made, and making points against something I said. I do reserve the right to respond to people who respond to me.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

Glaice said:


> I think she should have let someone with _better_ PR skills to have handled this and stayed in the background handling TTs for the time being. New staff should not take the task of handling a potentially explosive situation like this without some oversight beforehand.
> 
> It seems almost each time a major announcement or change in policy results in a shitstorm to some degree.



Well, one of the reasons I would have held back on it is *how* you present the information. Obviously people are still arguing over Guidelines as standards as to how to draw. It was more of what kinds  (not complete, but a combination of) things to look for. Where would be the best place? What kind of feedback could we get from some users who may have a different POV and could outline things even staff may miss? It's nice to have another look over from some people that can put things into more thoughtful counterpoints. ex. Freehaven seems to do this, where if it was ElCid...(uhh...)

I think she was well meaning, she just wants to help out. I know this issue wanted some guidelines for help, not just for users but staff too. Imagine if we had this a guideline and didn't tell anyone? Another shit storm. So I think the intent was to show some more transparency even if people go into fear monger mode.

I'm not omniscient tho, and this is just my personal opinion.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> No. *You obviously haven't drawn enough.* Most people that cry  about "it's their style" are too reliant on symbols and not actual  foundational drawing. It's an excuse. It's a weak one. That's why I  constantly tell beginners stop worrying about style because people  already have an inherit style, and most of what is done by hobbyists is  forced symbolization by copying other elements of someone's symbols they  made.
> 
> http://whitetrashpalace.deviantart.c...LE-1-169660607
> 
> ...



Is there any place in your world for aesthetics or what the artist likes or is it all just about symbols that can be switched around without caring?


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## Verin Asper (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> Well, one of the reasons I would have held back on it is *how* you present the information. Obviously people are still arguing over Guidelines as standards as to how to draw. It was more of what kinds  (not complete, but a combination of) things to look for. Where would be the best place? What kind of feedback could we get from some users who may have a different POV and could outline things even staff may miss? It's nice to have another look over from some people that can put things into more thoughtful counterpoints. ex. Freehaven seems to do this, where if it was ElCid...(uhh...)
> 
> I think she was well meaning, she just wants to help out. I know this issue wanted some guidelines for help, not just for users but staff too. Imagine if we had this a guideline and didn't tell anyone? Another shit storm. So I think the intent was to show some more transparency even if people go into fear monger mode.



and this I understand, its just a guideline and like I said earlier on this topic "I'm sure other folks can also provide if not show how THEY age up the characters"
We bitched how we didnt have something solid to show us what is aged up, and now folks are bitching that we do have a guideline. Then again this source is coming from sonic porn fans raging that IS got butthurt being told to remove some images cause the character didnt look quite aged up.


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## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Is there any place in your world for aesthetics or what the artist likes or is it all just about symbols that can be switched around without caring?



Subjectivity is controlled through objective means in art. Artists do not create subjectivity, they merely direct it in their audience. A critical analysis of anything requires taking it apart objectively.

An artist is free to draw what they like, but what relevance is that to anyone else?


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Is there any place in your world for aesthetics or what the artist likes or is it all just about symbols that can be switched around without caring?



Go read that submission from WhiteTrashPalace.


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## Freehaven (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I think she was well meaning, she just wants to help out.



The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

In any case, I agree with Glaice: Dragoneer or another long-standing admin should have brought this up in a way that fostered a rational discussion of the matter (instead of causing a knee-jerk "don't tell me how to draw Sonic porn!" shitstorm). Sciggles made a mistake, and now she has to carry the weight of said mistake on her shoulders. She was the messenger, the one who brought this news to the FA userbase -- and in this community, the messenger tends to get "shot" first.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> In any case, I agree with Glaice: Dragoneer or another long-standing admin should have brought this up in a way that fostered a rational discussion of the matter (instead of causing a knee-jerk "don't tell me how to draw Sonic porn!" shitstorm). Sciggles made a mistake, and now she has to carry the weight of said mistake on her shoulders. She was the messenger, the one who brought this news to the FA userbase -- and in this community, the messenger tends to get "shot" first.


I gotta agree on this point, don't shoot the messenger, in this case sciggles, cause it was the decision of the staff to begin actively enforcing the rules as they were meant to.


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## Devious Bane (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> WhiteTrashPalace.



'Nuff Said.


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## RTDragon (Feb 10, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I mentioned a few pages ago DA will ban any artwork featuring characters that are kids. Example is Lisa Simpson. Someone drew her full grown as an adult and that artwork was still banned. It was just nudity/cheesecake.



If i think about this there was a lot of rage from anime artists on DA about a huge purge of bondage images. I think this was the journal explaining it. Considering i lurk a lot on DA besides chatting with friends.
http://fav.me/d4dgbph


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> 'Nuff Said.



Why don't you go read the submission, instead of snarking. It's just a username.

RT: yeah, and people can have fun with DA's FAQ on it....and remember these people are paid to remove your submissions  http://help.deviantart.com/248/


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 10, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> In any case, I agree with Glaice: Dragoneer or another long-standing admin should have brought this up in a way that fostered a rational discussion of the matter (instead of causing a knee-jerk "don't tell me how to draw Sonic porn!" shitstorm). Sciggles made a mistake, and now she has to carry the weight of said mistake on her shoulders. She was the messenger, the one who brought this news to the FA userbase -- and in this community, the messenger tends to get "shot" first.



'Neer posting it, with an explanation of the what, whys, and hows of the whole thing actually might have by-passed it entirely.

I think that it being Sciggles...whom folks aren't as familiar with, and having been so close to the is incident..probably didn't help matters in the least bit.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

So Sciggles shouldn't make announcements as an admin because of the controversy? Unfortunately that would kind of deligitimize (Yes I know that isn't really a word) the whole point of her being an admin.

And really, it isn't like all this drama is going to effect anything. Net gain.


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## The Lunatic25 (Feb 10, 2012)

Maybe Sciggles' shouldn't have made THIS announcement, is what I'm getting at. Public perception is an important factor, and this is probably something that Neer himself should have handled, having already had experience with this kind of thing.

I had a discussion with Summercat a few days ago in a journal, and as an Admin they will 'pass off' duties to other folks they feel are more qualified to handle it. That is most likely what should have happened here, as it's clearly got defendants on both sides who are hot-blooded about it, and I think Sciggles' closeness to what had happened only days prior didn't help, and she was probably overwhelmed by the response entirely.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

See, I would almost argue that they tried to give her a softball issue to start out with. This was a pretty narrow "ban" targeting only sonic. The controversy was the original ban of cub pron. But regardless, what is done is done. Arguing about who shoulda broached the topic is a little bit silly. 

It isn't like it would change the issue at hand, which is the topic that has bounced back and forth like a ping pong ball. Someone had to say it. Might as well be the one who's name reminds me of skittles.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 10, 2012)

TBH this response was a lot less hostile than previous responses in the past. I mean at least most reasonable people in the thread are coming to terms with things.

-- erk sorry mean the "past" not "thread"


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## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

Well, this isn't politics. Reasonableness will eventually kick in


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Well, this isn't politics. Reasonableness will eventually kick in


-or the thread dies off before reason kicks in or one side, more often than not it's faf regulars' side, wins.

In reality this doesn't change any rules it just attempts to clarify rules already on the books.

The problem is that if a popufur posts this thread in a fa journal expect chaos cause of people knee-jerk reacting.


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 10, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> -or the thread dies off before reason kicks in or one side, more often than not it's faf regulars' side, wins.
> 
> In reality this doesn't change any rules it just attempts to clarify rules already on the books.
> 
> The problem is that if a popufur posts this thread in a fa journal expect chaos cause of people knee-jerk reacting.



I can't realistically see any way this could have gone better. "Good PR skills" isn't really a furry thing, especially not an FA thing, so expecting someone with "better PR skills" to have handled this is like expecting a miracle. And if Dragoneer did this himself, the only difference might just be him drawing a crowd of particularly unfocussed whiners, along with brain-dead white knights to counter them, all just stirring up drama.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 10, 2012)

Yerf made the mistake of messing with Sonic fans, too - look where it is now!

More seriously, this situation highlights the flaws of this policy, because the question of age is ridiculously blurred when it comes to fictional animal characters. Worse, you end up in knots by tying yourself to canon as well as appearance. Pokemon are clearly divided by evolution; is all adult Pichu or Riolu art then outlawed on FA?

Or take my own character; canonically seventy-five minutes old, approximately three feet high, a head one-third the size of his body, and eyes half the width of his head. Oh, and his species reproduces by kissing. Good luck policing that one.

Like most sites, FA is an autocracy, so politics is a moot issue. But perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea for its staff and users to ask themselves if their site is better than it was four years ago - and whether they want to spend the _next_ four maintaining this fruitless course.

Users are already making their decision:


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

Now.. I am just a simple country hyper chicken. But doesn't that graph show an increase in Daily traffic to FA since 2010? I mean, it goes from over 5,000 to over 15,000.


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## GreenReaper (Feb 10, 2012)

It's traffic rank. FA has gone from 7,500th in the world to closer to 15,000th in two years.


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## Waffles (Feb 10, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Yerf made the mistake of messing with Sonic fans, too - look where it is now!
> 
> More seriously, this situation highlights the flaws of this policy, because the question of age is ridiculously blurred when it comes to fictional animal characters. Worse, you end up in knots by tying yourself to canon as well as appearance. Pokemon are clearly divided by evolution; is all adult Pichu or Riolu art then outlawed on FA?
> 
> ...



Yerf, nice job redirecting to an article with no mention of Sonic anywhere.
And for kissing? That is not SEX. That is REPRODUCTION. I mean, I know they're the same technically, but not for humans are your species. 
And yes, it's an autocracy. So what?


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

Cool, didn't really know what that was.

Now, unfortunately that doesn't really tell you much of anything does it? There are A) more people using the internet. B) more websites. Talk about your unknown variables.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Yerf made the mistake of messing with Sonic fans, too - look where it is now!
> 
> More seriously, this situation highlights the flaws of this policy, because the question of age is ridiculously blurred when it comes to fictional animal characters. Worse, you end up in knots by tying yourself to canon as well as appearance. Pokemon are clearly divided by evolution; is all adult Pichu or Riolu art then outlawed on FA?
> 
> ...


Oh god now we have greenreaper doing this stick as well.

Dude, we've been over this a million fucking times already, the sole reason why they are doing this is for monetary reason.  They have no choice in the matter, it's either the site can't receive donations or the site bans canon style sonic porn.

Secondly fa isn't a government, so calling it a autocracy makes no sense whatsofucking ever.

Thirdly your character is fine so long as you don't draw porn of him.  This is a GUIDELINE, meaning a relativistic way of determining whether or not a pornographic picture violates the rules.  The key word is relativistic, not absolute.

Also where is your citation that the traffic rank has whatsoever to do with anything being discussed.  That'd be like showing a chart and saying that solely because it's a chart it validates everything you do.

Fifth you mentioned that your character's fictional species reproduces by kissing... I don't think kissing is the equivalent of getting it on.

Sixth, "the site sucks now" is a pointless argument cause that's a relativistic argument that holds no actual water.


lostcat461 said:


> Cool, didn't really know what that was.
> 
> Now, unfortunately that doesn't really tell you much of anything does  it? There are A) more people using the internet. B) more websites. Talk  about your unknown variables.


It's C, all of the above.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 10, 2012)

Waffles said:


> Yerf, nice job redirecting to an article with no mention of Sonic anywhere.


That particular fact is on History of Yerf. It's not particularly interesting or enlightening; I mentioned it as an aside.



lostcat461 said:


> Now, unfortunately that doesn't really tell you much of anything does it? There are A) more people using the internet. B) more websites. Talk about your unknown variables.



You're right. It's not perfect. They do have a compare function, though:






Could be these sites are just getting more popular and keeping pace. But then, where is the traffic coming from? Growth in the fandom? Why not at FA?



> Dude, we've been over this a million fucking times already, the sole reason why they are doing this is for monetary reason. They have no choice in the matter, it's either the site can't receive donations or the site bans canon style sonic porn.



That was the assertion. But tell me, why has no other payment provider yet been found, in over a year, for donations? Could it be that the mere presence of adult art is the real issue there?

Moreover, FA ostensibly now receives donations by money order. I see no reason why that would (or even could) be blocked. Yet this ban remains.

In practice I suspect much of the site's funding comes from advertising, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was handled via a PayPal or AlertPay account.



> I don't think kissing is the equivalent of getting it on.



It is the precise equivalent for that species. Indeed, this terminology is not unusual; the act of avians mating is often termed a cloacal kiss.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> You're right. It's not perfect. They do have a compare function, though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


pixiv.net isn't even a furry site.

Are you fucking serious?  "mere presence of adult art is the real issue"?  Have you even looked at dragoneer's favorites?

And you just answered your own question.  Even with donations it's not enough to run the site, which is why there's ads.

....Wait your character's mouth is a penis and he also eats with his mouth, meaning he eats food with his penis.... okay I gotta ask, what the hell?  Where did you even think of that?


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

Dude. Seriously, once more you compare Apples to pineapples.  They are very similar in the name, but boy are they different. I wasn't saying that you needed comparison. I was stating that the entire idea of your "Traffic ranking" is flawed due to crazy amounts of unknown variables.

If you continue at this, I think Ronald Fisher is going to rise out of his grave and throw fruit at you.


----------



## Waffles (Feb 10, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> That particular fact is on History of Yerf. It's not particularly interesting or enlightening; I mentioned it as an aside.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yerf still did not go down BECAUSE OF RABID SONIC FANS. Even you mention it's an aside, so why mention it?
And FA might be not growing as FAST as other sites, hence why it drops in rank... And does rank matter? No? Okay good.
FA, even if it doesn't recieve paypal/alertpay donations, is just making loopholes if they let young-looking sonic character remain after the cub ban. 
And that is for feral birds - are you a feral bird? No?


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 10, 2012)

> Are you fucking serious? "mere presence of adult art is the real issue"? Have you even looked at dragoneer's favorites?
> 
> And you just answered your own question. Even with donations it's not enough to run the site, which is why there's ads.



You're missing my point; the presence of such art (particularly adult art with themes of bestiality, rape, and the questionable use of characters from popular media) makes it unlikely that any payment processor will want to touch FA once attention is drawn to its content.

I don't think running the site on ads is a bad idea, but since it is clearly possible - the site has not gone down, despite the lack of a payment processor for donations - why does the ban remain?



> okay I gotta ask, what the hell? Where did you even think of that?



It was invented by the designers of _Creatures_, not me. Presumably they wanted a PG-rated form of mating.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 10, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> You're missing my point; the presence of such art (particularly adult art with themes of bestiality, rape, and the questionable use of characters from popular media) makes it unlikely that any payment processor will want to touch FA once attention is drawn to its content.
> 
> I don't think running the site on ads is a bad idea, but since it is clearly possible - the site has not gone down, despite the lack of a payment processor for donations - why does the ban remain?
> 
> ...


Because Dragoneer is paying a chunk of the money required to keep the site running out of pocket, before asking for cub porn to be allowed again think for a second, "hey 'neer is paying a good deal out of his wallet to keep the site up and he kept cub until he had no choice otherwise".

What you are proposing would wind up fa losing ad revenue as well.

Seriously would you pay $1600 a month out of wallet to keep fa up?  Cause that is what you are proposing dragoneer does.


Whoever created that creature needs psychological help.


----------



## Devious Bane (Feb 10, 2012)

Let's just tick everyone off.
That'll make us all happy.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 10, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> Let's just tick everyone off.
> That'll make us all happy.




....or commit mass suicide. The punch bowl is over there. ----->


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 10, 2012)

HEY. That isn't funny, Dinosaur. Countless Americans suffer through bad punch every year at homecoming dances, weddings, and proms. Lest we never forget....


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Could be these sites are just getting more popular and keeping pace. But then, where is the traffic coming from? Growth in the fandom? Why not at FA?



There are spikes here and there, but nothing as ridiculous and lasting as a 'mass exodus due to cub porn banning'; I would look to reasoning that accounts for a gradual decline. I really don't know much about those other sites, but I know FA has barely changed (the website itself) in the past... 7 years? I think that's just about how long it's been around. If there's one thing that technology users (so internet users, like FA users) slowly abandon, it's old tech.

Maybe you're right, and it is all due to certain porn bans, but really... that's kinda reaching when there have been non-stop programming issues in abundance. FA is so dated, and I can't imagine anything else killing it besides that.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2012)

So the end of FA is due to clarification of what is allowed re Sonic Porn?

Not because of coding, staff, or the other problems. 

OK, thanks for the graph.

I guess I've been paying attention to the wrong things...


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Even then, Heimdal, there are so many other explaining factors to that kind of variable. If the wiki and his explanation is correct, it is more of a ranking on hits to a site. And on top of all that, according to the company's wiki, it is a tracking cookie linked to IE, firefox, and chrome that is often received as a trojan. So I would assume alot of times it gets blocked. 

I mean.. there are so many unknown variables that speculating with that is just... a waste of time.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

> Maybe you're right, and it is all due to certain porn bans



I didn't say that. You're right that old technology can cause a site to lose popularity; this is one reason the VCL is no longer on the radar. However, its joining review requirements were also a factor, in comparison with instant-signup.

I _do_ think it's an important factor. FA was initially a place where all furry art had a home. Now it is not. The scope of this ban has also increased over time - if it hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> There are spikes here and there, but nothing as ridiculous and lasting as a 'mass exodus due to cub porn banning'; I would look to reasoning that accounts for a gradual decline. I really don't know much about those other sites, but I know FA has barely changed (the website itself) in the past... 7 years? I think that's just about how long it's been around. If there's one thing that technology users (so internet users, like FA users) slowly abandon, it's old tech.
> 
> Maybe you're right, and it is all due to certain porn bans, but really... that's kinda reaching when there have been non-stop programming issues in abundance. FA is so dated, and I can't imagine anything else killing it besides that.


Fa still uses tables in their programming, that's all you ever need to know about how the site functions to demonstrate how outdated it is.
I'm surpised yak is even trying to salvage the website, rather than starting the fuck over.  It'd be like giving a pinto nitros and hydrolics, it's still a pinto.


GreenReaper said:


> I _do_ think it's an important factor. FA was initially a place  where all furry art had a home. Now it is not. The scope of this ban has  also increased over time - if it hadn't, we wouldn't be having this  discussion now.


Is it really that much of a lose though?
They banned cub, by my book that was a good day.


----------



## Freehaven (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> I'm surpised yak is even trying to salvage the website, rather than starting the fuck over.



FA would need a professional, highly-paid coder who's willing to work with a group as dysfunctional as the furry community for FA to be salvaged -- especially if it means rebuilding FA from the ground up.

At this point, people would likely be better served making a Tumblr. Sure, Tumblr doesn't allow for naming image files/preserving filenames, but at least there's more freedom to post content and adjust the look of a Tumblog -- and a Tumblr can be used with a custom URL, which means ten dollars (for a domain name) and a nice Tumblr design can be far more beneficial to someone getting noticed/followed/etc. than an FA account.

FA serves a purpose, but that purpose can be supplanted by Tumblr, SoFurry, Inkbunny, DA, or any other number of services which outperform FA in terms of modern technology and web content delivery/storage. FA needs to be rebuilt to stand a chance of competing with these other services -- and as users realize how stagnant FA's become, they'll begin to look to other services. I've already seen a number of artists I follow on FA start up Tumblogs for their art, so Dragoneer might want to get worried right...about...*now.*


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

The scariest words in business are "Lets start over."  And yes, it is a huge loss CannonFodder, millions of children crying out in moans, and then suddenly silenced.

Oh, and Freehaven. Are said artists still on FA?


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> FA would need a professional, highly-paid coder who's willing to work with a group as dysfunctional as the furry community for FA to be salvaged -- especially if it means rebuilding FA from the ground up.


Not really, Eevee was working on making a new UI before dropping from the staff cause he couldn't handle a certain previous juvenile acting  ex-fa programmer.
If you ask me they should find someone to just continue his work.


lostcat461 said:


> The scariest words in business are "Lets start  over."  And yes, it is a huge loss CannonFodder, millions of children  crying out in moans, and then suddenly silenced.


But my point is Eevee half finished a new UI, all they really need to do is finish it.


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> I _do_ think it's an important factor. FA was initially a place where all furry art had a home. Now it is not. The scope of this ban has also increased over time - if it hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.



How does FA rank in comparison to DA? I mean the trend of it's ranking. I know DA is less niche than FA, so it will be higher up in general, but is it suffering from a gradual decline at the same relative pace? It has far more strict of a porn ban than FA ever will. DA ought to even be declining faster, or else I have little reason to follow the argument you're presenting.

I just agree with lostcat461, that there's so many variables in the data that a solid case simply cannot be made. Another query: what was the relative amount of Sonic fans in Yerf's time, compared to now? I bet it was far more proportionally significant then than it is now.


----------



## Freehaven (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Are said artists still on FA?



Yes, because FA is still a "hub" for the furry community.

FA still needs to worry about its "competition", however. The right combination of tools (e.g. a sizeable Dropbox account for art storage, a cheap domain name, and a well-designed Tumblog to display said art) can put FA to shame.

There haven't been any new "major" features added to FA in years. People will begin to notice, and they'll start to look elsewhere if FA stays stagnant. Don't think FA is "too big to fail" -- nothing is. Everything which has a beginning will have an end, and FA is no different.


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## Kihari (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> If the wiki and his explanation is correct



I can't tell whether or not you're referring to GreenReaper as "The Wiki" but I'm going to mentally do this whenever I see his posts from now on. :V



CannonFodder said:


> I'm surpised yak is even trying to salvage the website, rather than starting the fuck over.  It'd be like giving a pinto nitros and hydrolics, it's still a pinto.



It's actually not surprising all that much. What they have right now works--certainly not as well as most would like, but works nonetheless--and when faced with the choice of either staying with something functional and making little changes here and there or dropping everything so start all over again, the most comfortable option (considering the resources available) is the one that gets picked.

Consider the number of times the staff _has_ attempted to rewrite the site from the ground up; when those didn't pan out, it always fell back on the old software to keep the service available, and while that's not very satisfying for some of us, whenever it comes to making that call it probably seems like the best and most realistic option there is.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Aye Kihari, I was talking about the company (Alexa thats it) that created that ungodly awful graph. *Shivers* so... much statistics pain.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:
			
		

> They banned cub, by my book that was a good day.



But it didn't stop you signing up beforehand, did it? It's the sort of "feature" that turns away more than it attracts.

(Inkbunny's got a similar issue. Banning human sex is a blocker for some; others like it, but usually not enough to join up because of it.)



			
				Heimdal said:
			
		

> DA ought to even be declining faster, or else I have little reason to follow the argument you're presenting.



DA never *allowed* explicit porn. It _is_ going downhill, though, or so it seems (click Traffic Rank).


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> DA never *allowed* explicit porn. It _is_ going downhill, though, or so it seems (click Traffic Rank).



Oh le' sigh. It is also a feature that embarrassed the fandom to a high degree. Thus CannonFodder is glad it is gone. (Oh, and so am I. Personal opinion.)

"It is going down hill, or so it seems." It must be do to them not having EVER shown porn and thus doesn't show a niche. Obviously. Either that or it was President Obama. Or hurricane Katrina. Or the Japanese nuclear incident. Or The fact that you are green. That must be it. Oh, sorry. Or so it seems.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

In my opinion yes it is possible that fa is going downhill cause they aren't pandering and bending over backwards for niche groups, but the less furry is a niche group in of itself the better.
As it stands furry is a niche group, niche groups alienate the general population, if furry stopped being a niche group it would be able to grow faster.  To use a analogy imagine two video games, video game A is targeting hard core video gamers and has controls and a plotline that only fans of the series will get; now insert video game B is targeting average individuals, has a low learning curve and such.  Which do you think has the more likely chance of being a commercial hit?  If you said video game A you're a idiot.  Niche genres have a chance of stagnating once the market for them dwindl-..... oh so that's what is going on.... furry has become such a niche group that we're slowly killing our fandom by alienating everybody else outside the niche.
[/uses greenreaper's own logic against him]


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

How does excluding art that's 100% furry make what's left more inclusive? You're just reducing the size of your audience, which is already constrained by the topic.

You're basically saying "FA should stop being so furry, and then it would be more popular". That might be true, but I doubt it'd be a site I'd care to visit that often.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Noooooooooooo, he is saying FA should be less pedophilic.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

Excluding furry pedophiles is unlikely to attract non-furry non-pedophiles. ;-p


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> How does excluding art that's 100% furry make what's left more inclusive? You're just reducing the size of your audience, which is already constrained by the topic.
> You're basically saying "FA should stop being so furry, and then it would be more popular". That might be true, but I doubt it'd be a site I'd care to visit that often.


Think of it this way, your average person on the street will not find sexually explicit drawings of children and/or childlike anthropomorphic creatures sexually attractive.


GreenReaper said:


> Excluding furry pedophiles is unlikely to attract non-furry non-pedophiles. ;-p


No, but it'd make it less likely for non-furries to be turned off(non-sexually) by the furry fandom.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> How does excluding art that's 100% furry make what's left more inclusive? You're just reducing the size of your audience, which is already constrained by the topic.
> 
> You're basically saying "FA should stop being so furry, and then it would be more popular". That might be true, but I doubt it'd be a site I'd care to visit that often.


and that where lies your damn problem
Furries want stuff to be exclusive/niche
The reason some furfags wont play any game unless its dominated by anthros, listen to music unless its made by a furry, or only read books that have just anthros. 

to quote my clan "Enjoy your small box, no thats all the room you have. All of it being used cause you prefer a small box, You cant grow bigger only shrink. Now if you had a larger box you can have room to grow while keeping your lil niches."


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Excluding furry pedophiles is unlikely to attract non-furry non-pedophiles. ;-p



Yes. I know you were thinking you are joking.

But. Now I officially am marking you down for being pro furry pedophiles. I'll make sure the FBI gets the tip.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:
			
		

> Think of it this way, your average person on the street will not find sexually explicit drawings of children and/or childlike anthropomorphic creatures sexually attractive.


Yes, but _they do not find furries attractive, either_.

Imagine you have a meat and kidney pie. Not everyone is a huge fan of kidney, but it's a fallacy to think that you can make said pie attractive to vegetarians by taking it out.



> Now I officially am marking you down for being pro furry pedophiles. I'll make sure the FBI gets the tip.



Dude, I'm a mod at Inkbunny. I figure they're watching me already.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Yes, but _they do not find furries attractive, either_.
> 
> Imagine you have a meat and kidney pie. Not everyone is a huge fan of kidney, but it's a fallacy to think that you can make said pie attractive to vegetarians by taking it out.


I'm going to use a real life example of what I'm getting at.

Remember the Avatar movie with the blue aliens?  There was a massive fandom larger than ours that dwindled to next to nothing within months, because their fandom was such a niche group that once the excitement over  the movie ended so did their fandom.

What is happening to furry is just like that, except instead of months it's taking years.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Yes, but _they do not find furries attractive, either_.
> 
> Imagine you have a meat and kidney pie. Not everyone is a huge fan of kidney, but it's a fallacy to think that you can make said pie attractive to vegetarians by taking it out.


 
Which comes to blah blah blah I like it that some people rape babies.

Imagine for me that you have a meat and kidney pie. The meat has been left sitting in the sun for 56 hours. It smells like certain furries who do not bathe. Should you make a meat and kidney pie with it?


----------



## Ben (Feb 11, 2012)

Considering a new means of accepting donations was never found, cub porn was effectively banned for 2 reasons:

1. To satisfy the group of users who really, really wanted cub porn gone, and
2. So people living in the UK felt more reassured about their safety, although no one in the UK has been arrested yet for having cub porn.

That's the simple truth of it, really.

Also, when you consider that bestiality, scat, rape, and any number of more hardcore fetishes are still allowed on this site, it's kind of absurd to argue that not having cub on here makes FA "less embarrassing." Because really, removing one type of fetish is not going to achieve that, not one bit. The way to make FA less embarrassing is to have it run professionally, not by going "I find your kinks unsavory, get off of my webspace!" But there's no real way of knowing if that will ever happen.


----------



## Waffles (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Dude, I'm a mod at Inkbunny. I figure they're watching me already.



This probably explains why you're still BAWWWWing.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

It also explains why I don't use Inkbunny XP (And ha Waffles. I am imagining you making the chicken sound when you BAW. It is your avianness.)


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> Dude, I'm a mod at Inkbunny. I figure they're watching me already.


Paranoid much?  I doubt the government gives two shits.
Also it makes so much sense cause your arguments can be summarized as, "Why isn't fa run like inkbunny?"


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Imagine for me that you have a meat and kidney pie. The meat has been left sitting in the sun for 56 hours. It smells like certain furries who do not bathe. Should you make a meat and kidney pie with it?



The problem is that you have to eat it, even though you don't want to. There is no way to block [topic you hate] at FA, beyond blocking individual artists. This is a social problem with a technical solution - a challenging one, but achievable. Instead, a policy decision was made. The cost of that decision remains today.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Paranoid much?  I doubt the government gives two shits.
> Also it makes so much sense cause your arguments can be summarized as, "Why isn't fa run like inkbunny?"


I would rather have FA look at SF for guidance on how things should be over IB


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh god, FA is costing me looking at pedoporn.  Somehow I think I shall survive. (and actually they did put in their whole "mature blocking thing")

You hurt my brain, Mr. Ink bunny mod. Lets take that example. I have to eat the pie. So I simply won't use the rancid meat. Magic eh? My meat pie no longer will kill me. Yes, it may get boring after a few meals, but at least it won't make me want to hurl. See the difference?


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

That's cool if you're a consumer who doesn't like rancid meat. Unfortunately for the manufacturer, their pies are now no longer appetizing to those who liked a bit of rancid meat in their diet, which reduces their market.

Worse, they now have to hire someone to go through all the meat and throw out the rancid bits, plus do a forced recall of all the pies they made earlier. Their customers constantly complain that they're being too picky about what's rancid, or not picky enough.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

^Why are you even posting then?
You are a mod on Inkbunny; Fa is a different site.  Stop complaining that it's not run like Inkbunny.  Just cause you moderate Inkbunny doesn't mean anything on Fa.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> That's cool if you're a consumer who doesn't like rancid meat. Unfortunately for the manufacturer, their pies are now no longer appetizing to those who liked a bit of rancid meat in their diet, which reduces their market.
> 
> Worse, they now have to hire someone to go through all the meat and throw out the rancid bits, plus do a forced recall of all the pies they made earlier. Their customers constantly complain that they're being too picky about what's rancid, or not picky enough.



God... see.... good god. I hope the FBI really is watching you.  Especially if you ever go into the food business.

There is such a thing as ETHICS. I know, many people will laugh cause a lot of businesses don't use em. Sometimes what people want is not what you give them. That is called being responsible. 

Really,  I don't even know what to say. So I am now going to completely  disregard your existence. Except to tell people that this is the kind of  attitude that moderators at Inkbunny have. Because honestly.. that is like the comically extreme parodies of Libertarians that Democrats make fun of. "Some consumers like my poison gummy bears. So I sell them so I don't lose the market." So... yeah. Sonic. Good job Sciggles. Get ta banning.


----------



## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 11, 2012)

Lostcat461 said:
			
		

> Oh god, FA is costing me looking at pedoporn.  Somehow I think I shall  survive. (and actually they did put in their whole "mature blocking  thing")



So you can either have unwanted sexual content or no sexual content? That's barely a compromise when other sites offer blocking by keywords.


----------



## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm an FA user too. I care about its community, and the wider furry community that it serves. I don't like to see strict restrictions placed on artistic freedom in pursuit of goals which I feel could be achieved in a less draconian way (sorry, dragons), and with less pain for all concerned.



> "Some consumers like my poison gummy bears. So I sell them so I don't lose the market."



The difference is that poison gummy bears are bad for you. Nobody died from over-consumption of Tails porn. It is not illegal, not even in the UK.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Rakuen. Never really said the word "compromise" did I? That quote was in response to someone who no longer exists saying that FA provided no way to filter out content you hate.

Well, that is a filter. Is it perfect? Nnnnnnope. Is it a filter for some? Aaaayup. Is FA perfect? Nnnnnoope. Have their mod's made me laugh so hard I spat a bit of beer on my laptop. Nyet.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> I'm an FA user too. I care about its community, and the wider furry community that it serves. I don't like to see strict restrictions placed on artistic freedom in pursuit of goals which I feel could be achieved in a less draconian way (sorry, dragons), and with less pain for all concerned.


...why the fuck furs keep on tossing around the word "artistic Freedom" no, its saying you cant post it here, you are free to still draw it and post it elsewhere, just like how IB says no you cant post human art here, go post it elsewhere.
PS SF just removed its Human Art ban, they just request folks to put Human only or Human in the tag to have it blacklisted


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Rakuen. Never really said the word "compromise" did I? That quote was in response to someone who no longer exists saying that FA provided no way to filter out content you hate.


Rakuen is the resident white knight, even when his side has gotten their asses kicked, destroyed and smitten from the space-time continuum he will continue to defend them.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:
			
		

> Rakuen is the resident white knight, even when his side has gotten their  asses kicked, destroyed and smitten from the space-time continuum he  will continue to defend them.



Do we read the same threads? I just don't see that happening much. Perhaps you're just referring to my views not always being the most popular but that's certainly not what I consider winning, though it is desirable.


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## Accountability (Feb 11, 2012)

This is a bad thread.


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## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

Fair enough, Crysix - you're right, that phrase is a cliche. That said, FA currently has the largest audience of furries, so restricting access has a stronger effect than restricting access to human art at a site where the topic is not particularly relevant.



			
				Accountability said:
			
		

> This is a bad thread.



Aww, you just can't choose which side to make fun of - those supporting FA's policies, or those supporting cub porn.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Do we read the same threads? *I just don't see that happening much.* Perhaps you're just referring to my views not always being the most popular but that's certainly not what I consider winning, though it is desirable.


Uh dude, you once equated hebephilia to homosexuality and then Deo, FayV and company proceeded to kick your ass and you wouldn't concede that you misspoke.


GreenReaper said:


> Aww, you just can't choose which side to make  fun of - those supporting FA's policies, or those supporting cub porn.


You definitely don't know Accountability.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Now now CannonFodder, no need to bring other threads into this... well except that, that is pretty much like an "oh snap"

This isn't even really about Admins vs Cub porn. It is more about censorship. (Especially since the debate about "cub porn" is long since passed. That ban came and went. This is just an expansion of the inevitable.)


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> (Especially since the debate about "cub porn" is long since passed. That ban came and went. This is just an expansion of the inevitable.)


This whole drama is just the admins finally enforcing the rules.


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## Rakuen Growlithe (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:
			
		

> Uh dude, you once equated hebephilia to homosexuality and then Deo, FayV  and company proceeded to kick your ass and you wouldn't concede that  you misspoke.



Don't remember but, again, just because the majority shares an opinion doesn't make it right. But since I can't remember what thread you're talking about I can't say much about that time.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

The majority of people in the world think murdering children is wrong too. A small group doesn't share that  opinion. But ya know what, in certain things like these I think I will round up. I will be in good company.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Don't remember but, again, just because  the majority shares an opinion doesn't make it right. But since I can't  remember what thread you're talking about I can't say much about that  time.


I can understand why you don't remember that, it was such a all around  absolute and flawless ass-kicking that your brain probably repressed the  memory of it.
Moral of the story though: Don't ever piss off Deo.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

Rakuen Growlithe said:


> Don't remember but, again, just because the majority shares an opinion doesn't make it right. But since I can't remember what thread you're talking about I can't say much about that time.


Majority doesnt make it AUTOMATICALLY right...but often time on FAF, that group IS in the right. We dont need to bring up the several times you supported dog fuckers who often got jail time or their dog taken away from them from choosing to be idiots and post them doing said acts on the internet...right?


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## Aetius (Feb 11, 2012)

This bawfest has given me much amusement.

Also how the fuck is banning Cub artists draconian?


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## Summercat (Feb 11, 2012)

Crysix Fousen said:


> Majority doesnt make it AUTOMATICALLY right...but often time on FAF, that group IS in the right. We dont need to bring up the several times you supported dog fuckers who often got jail time or their dog taken away from them from choosing to be idiots and post them doing said acts on the internet...right?



But you just

Wait

He just said

But I

...

im 12 and what is this
i need an adult D:

----

In a slightly less serious note, I would like to announce that in a Perfectly Fair and Impartial Survey of Furry Websites, Anthroview (my magazine) has deemed Furaffinity to be the best of them all ever. This is totally Fair And Balanced(tm), and not at all snark of me laughing at the idea of an admin or moderator on one site using another venue they have sole control over to proclaim that the site they administrate is the BEST EVER. Fox News is the best news organization, and this is called 'Ethics'. *nods*


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## Volkodav (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> I can understand why you don't remember that, it was such a all around  absolute and flawless ass-kicking that your brain probably repressed the  memory of it.
> Moral of the story though: Don't ever piss off Deo.


This sounds like a damn good story. i am getting comfortable to read it. my pants are off and evferything

Link please


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## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> DA never *allowed* explicit porn. It _is_ going downhill, though, or so it seems (click Traffic Rank).



If that's true then why is there still explict porn that keeps popping up there. (And don't even say a lot of those pictures are artistic nudes) 

Though several major factors that make DA look really bad are.

Tracing is Legal (Very well known issue on here)
Bases (Many which are traces bases.)
Points System (Pageviews for points scam.) http://fav.me/d41yb4z This really made the pageviews irrelevant. (Not to mention it's already been downhill those past years.)
People that cannot even take helpful critique here and flip out. 

I could really go on but i think that is enough.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> DA never *allowed* explicit porn. It _is_ going downhill, though, or so it seems (click Traffic Rank).



*NSFW:* Depends who draws it


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Obviously that isn't pornography Arshes Nei. It is some sort of artistic interpretation of the war on terror. The naked ladies representing the coalition forces attempting to hold down the bed of twisty, curly terrorist caterpillar snake things. Obviously.

RTDragon. " People that cannot even take helpful critique here and flip out."  I don't think you can fairly say that is a DA problem which makes it look bad. Last I looked, that is a human problem that makes everyone look bad.  I mean, ever played Dota2 or Heroes of Newerth? Read forums? God, FA criticisms?

Third point. Oh god Summercat is really a 12 year old. Someone notify the parents  

Back on topic. Calling the ban of cub pronz Draconian is just a scare tactic. Blaming those poor dragons for their fursecution. Next they will be rounding up the dragons into some kind of concentration day care camp.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Back on topic. Calling the ban of cub pronz Draconian is just a scare tactic. Blaming those poor dragons for their fursecution. Next they will be rounding up the dragons into some kind of concentration day care camp.


Don't do it lostcat, they're going to take this as a serious post and run with it.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

But I wouldn't mind. They should round up all those greedy, big snouted dragons controlling all the wealth in their hordes... okay, you are right. I can't even keep a straight face typing this. xD


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## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

/b/ is way ahead of you - they were protesting furry learning centers in 2007!





In an entierly fair and balanced survey of furries, FA still comes out on top when it comes to preferred art sites. However, Inkbunny is not so far behind.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> In an entierly fair and balanced survey of furries, FA still comes out on top when it comes to preferred art sites. However, Inkbunny is not so far behind.


tell me was these stats from 1  year ago :V or out of ya ass to make IB look better
As so far SF have done a lot more than both FA and IB

P.S. its broken unless every single one of those sites KNOW of this survey.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> /b/ is way ahead of you - they were protesting furry learning centers in 2007!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Furry learning centers?  Dafuq?  If that is exactly what you are making it sound like then I agree with the protesters on this.  The last thing any parent should do is send their kids to a daycare to be indoctrinated.

Who the fuck cares?  Even if pedobunny catches up I'm still not going to join that crap fest of a wankfest.  And besides would you even want me to join?  If I joined it'd just be to piss off the users.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Who the fuck cares?  Even if pedobunny catches up I'm still not going to join that crap fest of a wankfest.  And besides would you even want me to join?  If *I joined it'd just be to piss off the users*.


I'm doing that on SF, problem is its too easy but the community there is at least advancing and willing to be listened to


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## Waffles (Feb 11, 2012)

SF is better then FA imo.
IB is worse then FA and SF.
GreenReaper, that pic and links you posted were so horibbly skewed and irrelevant. 
Thank you.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh hey-
http://www.flayrah.com/3858/whats-your-preferred-online-art-community#comments
Look at the new poll, totally unrelated huh?

Way to fucking go GreenReaper, you know what that's called? Confirmation bias.  "hey I'm losing the argument, so I'm going to make a poll on the site I own to confirm my opinion cause I can't win otherwise".


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm still wondering about the relevance of stats wars to begin with. A lot of sites bottom out on growth after a certain time, people jump on to the latest craze from myspace to facebook to g+ etc... People run from hotmail, to yahoo, then like gmail. If people can't use or work with Sijun forums, they go to EatPoo, Concept Art, or CGHub...ImagineFX or use them in combination. 

It's the way of the internet. 

To be honest, I'm hard pressed to keep moving to different sites unless they have information I want. Plus, as people get older, their tastes change. So yeah some younger and college students are into furry, but as more of that information is available - burnout actually happens quicker.

Case point - anime fans. I remember getting into anime, you'd have an "otaku" for "10 years" (this data was actually based upon working with some in the industry and some observations not so much big statistics). People would keep up websites for years on their favorite series. Now there's such a proliferation of anime, burnout is quicker. So one of the bigger factors is, the more available options, people will not only use - but drop out of that hobby faster or will be less hardcore about it. So some of the factors you should be taking in is less worrying about if website A is better than B for the time being, but the longevity of your fanbase. Will the next generation of fans be "furries for life"? Or will they eventually grow tired when they're done with college, paying the bills for college and moving onto having families or whatever age takes them? Will those users always be around uploading porn and furry art, or maybe they will go into drawing other art, as well as furry that can be hosted elsewhere?

I should add on, yes this is a tangent about guidelines for Sonic Porn art, but since it was brought up as a contributing or major factor (really wtf, that's the angle now?) of the downfall of a website - I just wanted to pull back in the reality of websites in general. Most have covered in other posts that it may be about features and availability (ease of access to use a website) that have stronger factors than "Sonic Porn" and I agree.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> I'm still wondering about the relevance of stats wars to begin with. A lot of sites bottom out on growth after a certain time, people jump on to the latest craze from myspace to facebook to g+ etc... People run from hotmail, to yahoo, then like gmail. If people can't use or work with Sijun forums, they go to EatPoo, Concept Art, or CGHub...ImagineFX or use them in combination.
> 
> It's the way of the internet.
> 
> ...


The short version is GreenReaper is claiming that the bottoming out of growth is caused by the cub ban and that the only way for Fa to grow is to reallow cub porn and began link spamming stats to prove his point.


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> The short version is GreenReaper is claiming that the bottoming out of growth is caused by the cub ban and that the only way for Fa to grow is to reallow cub porn and began link spamming stats to prove his point.


While their own site ban human art, to which SF to cater to more furs removed their OWN human art ban but added humans to be on the black list(they do request that the fur dont just post human art, they have to sometimes post furry art). This in turn can actually turn away folks from IB to which now SF is pretty much already passing IB as an alternate site to FA. Another thing is that SF caters to their writers while FA caters more to artist (both are forms of art still), which is why my friends still find it weird that a person who draws would gladly get in a trade with someone who writes on SF.

On a development stance I would believe its SF>FA>IB
On Popularity Stance FA>IB=SF
Out of the sites that folks would probably migrate to if FA ever goes down...SF


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## GreenReaper (Feb 11, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> "hey I'm losing the argument, so I'm going to make a poll on the site I own to confirm my opinion cause I can't win otherwise".



_Posted by GreenReaper (Laurence Parry) on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 00:56_


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## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> _Posted by GreenReaper (Laurence Parry) on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 00:56_


yes yes cause we will ignore its on a site you help run...yep


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## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> But seriously, someone should take it into their heads to come up with a real argument now.


Oh I like you.

But getting back on topic, GreenReaper atleast come up with a logical argument(sweet jesus even I'm saying this) other than, "fa is dying cause they banned cub porn".
How are the two even related?
Correlation doesn't mean causation, just cause the two happened around the same time doesn't mean they are related.  Actually the bottoming out of fa's page ranking happened before.  Using your own logic then that means the decline in page ranking caused the cub ban.


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## Aetius (Feb 11, 2012)

FA decline without Cub Porn?

Hell I have been on the place more since it was banned.


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## Kayla (Feb 11, 2012)

I thought this thread was about Sonic Porn guidelines, how did it turn into a site war?


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Hey, technically the site war boils back to the sonic pron guidelines.  Mostly through leaps and bounds of stupidity, including really silly graphs, pedophiles, and snarky side comments. 

It boils down to. A) You can't claim it was the cub/sonic pron ban that caused or even effected FA's ranking. B) Mods from other sites are not unbiased survey creators. C) The guidelines simply go hand in hand with the original ban. D) Mortal Kombat... FIGHT (in debate form)


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## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> " People that cannot even take helpful critique here and flip out."  I don't think you can fairly say that is a DA problem which makes it look bad. Last I looked, that is a human problem that makes everyone look bad.  I mean, ever played Dota2 or Heroes of Newerth? Read forums? God, FA criticisms?



You be very surprised at what goes on at DA when honest critique in involved especially with fan artists, anthro artists, and wolf artists.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon, very little about the internet surprises me. Let me guess. Their fans rally and attack. The artist declares you just don't understand. Sicks fans on you to try and cause an emocide.  

Business as usual for the internet.


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## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

Yes but these days i see way more than just that. block tool abuse is also included. Also if i recall there is still that massive shitstorm on a popular wolf artists page (Though it's calmed down a bit) despite that she left but the journals that were left provided quite some helpful information on critique. plus this artist still owes people their commissions.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

But see, once more. That isn't really a sign of anything but your own personal experience. Generalizing it to the whole of DA is very statistically flawed.  Now if you take a survey and poll the users, well you'd still have a hell of a lot of bias, but it would at least be applicable.


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## Kayla (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> Yes but these days i see way more than just that. block tool abuse is also included. Also if i recall there is still that massive shitstorm on a popular wolf artists page (Though it's calmed down a bit) despite that she left but the journals that were left provided quite some helpful information on critique. plus this artist still owes people their commissions.



Kay Fedewa?


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## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

Kayla said:


> Kay Fedewa?



No Blueshinewolf.


----------



## Kayla (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> No Blueshinewolf.



ah


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> But see, once more. That isn't really a sign of anything but your own personal experience. Generalizing it to the whole of DA is very statistically flawed.  Now if you take a survey and poll the users, well you'd still have a hell of a lot of bias, but it would at least be applicable.



Any kind of Online Survey is sketchy at best. You can hope for an honest crowd to answer your questions but it is all too common to see skewwed statistics due people trolling the survey. That happens with some furry surveys, and on a grander scale Reddit does it to Fox News and their polls.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh don't get me started on that psychological furry survey they used at AC.  (or the one linked to FA) So much statistical insignificance. 

But see, that is the difference. It is insignificant, just like the Fox news poll. They have their bias, the results are skewed. But you can at least apply it to making broad generalizations.  

Like right there, RTDragon. You and Kayla just listed two users that you both feel are bad about receiving "helpful critique." To say that you feel that is a sign that DA is somehow flawed is just silly.  At most you can prove that those two are assholes in your opinion. Now if you could get some data to show the percentage of negative comments on DA increasing, maybe you could apply an analysis.


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## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

Kayla said:


> ah



Yup considering a certain journal of here and this Article. that was posted after she announced her leaving DA.

EDIT: Lostcast as much as i would like to argue with you. Have you been on deviantart before for many years?


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## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Yes, yes I have. Been on DA for like 4 to 5 years.  

See I am not arguing you on your opinion, I am saying that the entire framework you are using is silly. Like right there, ooh email journal of one person. That is the overall opinion I should believe. (that is sarcasm)

Basically I think you are going completely outside of the topic range simply to bash certain hobby horses (no offense bronies) who you watch and have become irritated with.


----------



## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

I don't think you understand what i am saying but to each his own i suppose.


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## Heimdal (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> If that's true then why is there still explict porn that keeps popping up there. (And don't even say a lot of those pictures are artistic nudes)



A lot of those pictures are artistic nudes.

What? Seriously. Just because the average person blurs "nude" and "porn" together doesn't mean an *art* website should agree and ignore the professional art community. Among artists, it's usually just illustrators who blur the two together, because they don't really include elements into their art beyond what is visually there.

But sometimes illegitimate things slip through. Frankly, the _rules and intent_ of a website of user-generated content should be judged by it's _rules and intent_, not by the things that slipped through.

Why don't we just say that all art sucks, because someone put a urinal in an art gallery once and got away with it?


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> I don't think you understand what i am saying but to each his own i suppose.



If it makes you feel better, pretend I don't speak English.


----------



## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

For someone who actually been on DA for 4 to 5 years you don't seem to have an open mind for others options or actually analyzing a situation.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> For someone who actually been on DA for 4 to 5 years you don't seem to have an open mind for others options or actually analyzing a situation.


It doesnt work when said person then using few events that happen to them to define a whole site :V


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## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> A lot of those pictures are artistic nudes.
> 
> What? Seriously. Just because the average person blurs "nude" and "porn" together doesn't mean an *art* website should agree and ignore the professional art community. Among artists, it's usually just illustrators who blur the two together, because they don't really include elements into their art beyond what is visually there.
> 
> ...



Well the main problem is you can usually tell if it's artistic nude or it's just cheap camwhore porn. And it can be quite tricky to tell from either one sometimes on there.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

RTDragon, do you read your own statements?

MC cat, break it down.

The main problem is you can usually tell if it's artistic nude
or just cheap camwhore porn.
And it can be tricky to tell from either one sometimes on there. 

So which is it. Can you usually tell? Or can it be tricky on there.  Then where is the point. Are you saying that the difficulty in determining between the two is the problem? Or is the problem that it is too easy to tell the difference between.

Freehaven. I shouldn't need potato chips. But god will I go for that bag like no one's business. Secondly, I am using it as more of a declaration then to make a point. Because I can, and because I find his opinions noxious and irrelevant.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 11, 2012)

Which doesn't answer the question. Which was: what was the entire point  of that response to Heimdal. (who I shall refer to as she because of the  pinky pie icon)

She rebutted you about your complaint, saying an  art site should be able to determine the difference between an artistic  nude and pornography because they are an art site. To which you replied:



RTDragon said:


> Well the main problem is you can usually tell if it's artistic nude or it's just cheap camwhore porn. And it can be quite tricky to tell from either one sometimes on there.



To which I replied that that statement made no sense what so ever and thus broke it down like I would a logic problem, separating each claim.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 11, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Hey, technically the site war boils back to the sonic pron guidelines.  Mostly through leaps and bounds of stupidity, including really silly graphs, pedophiles, and snarky side comments.
> 
> It boils down to. A) You can't claim it was the cub/sonic pron ban that caused or even effected FA's ranking. B) Mods from other sites are not unbiased survey creators. C) The guidelines simply go hand in hand with the original ban. D) Mortal Kombat... FIGHT (in debate form)


Pretty much.

We've been trying to keep it on topic of the sonic canon style porn ban, but the thread has constantly been intentionally tried to derailed by other members to the point it's like dog catching a train(terminology for grabbing traincars that have derailed/sped off/ or got lost).
At this point the site wars are just a upscale of what's already been going on by users losing their argument side and going, "well my sites better" essentially.

GreenReaper early was acting like Fa should be run like InkBunny and began derailing the thread, when in reality the ban on canon style sonic porn isn't any new rules, but rather the enforcement of Furaffinity's rules NOT Inkbunny's rules.

The site war debate is cause GreenReaper dislikes the new ban and thinks Fa should be ran like Inkbunny which he moderates.

Tl:dr;  We've been trying to keep on topic, but the people defending canon style sonic porn sure as hell aren't making it easy.


----------



## RTDragon (Feb 11, 2012)

Why am i not surprised that lostcat reminds me of a immature person who spouts garbage like this. Not to mention that attitude of his is not helping at all.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Feb 11, 2012)

For the love of....alright this "pedomod" thing is kind of low folks. The next person who calls someone a pedomod gets a vacation from FAF. Stay on topic and keep it civil.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 11, 2012)

If you furfags gave half a shit to real problems in the word such as the people in congress trying to censer the internet and otherwise control your daily life rather than bitch over cartoon porn we might go somewhere.


----------



## Armaetus (Feb 12, 2012)

In slightly related news..

I've heard some frightening words that feral, digimon and pokemon porn will be cracked down upon. Yea, as long as Dragoneer is a Murasdramon you want to bet he won't change to an entirely different character?

And when is it _YOUR_ site too, Scigs? You were NOT around with him when Neer was given the reigns in the earlier years of the site.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

Well, if it followed the rules, it would be fine with the "aging" that was suggested in the start of the thread (the digimon, that is). Wouldn't surprise me if it is next. Likely all the "canon" characters will have to be monitored to follow through with the rules of age.

But then, it all ties back to enforcing the rule that was already there.


----------



## Devious Bane (Feb 12, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Likely all the "canon" characters will have to be monitored to follow through with the rules of age.



I think we already went over the fact that, though Sonic Characters were the given visual, that these proposed rules apply to ALL "canon" characters such a Digimon, Pokemon, Japanom, etc.

Or that it at least needs to.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> I think we already went over the fact that, though Sonic Characters were the given visual, that these proposed rules apply to ALL "canon" characters such a Digimon, Pokemon, Japanom, etc.
> 
> Or that it at least needs to.


It's just a question of if the rule will actually be enforced.


----------



## Devious Bane (Feb 12, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> It's just a question of if the rule will actually be enforced.


Pretty much, assuming it /does/ get added that's still something FA hasn't been very well known to do.


----------



## Verin Asper (Feb 12, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> I think we already went over the fact that, though Sonic Characters were the given visual, that these proposed rules apply to ALL "canon" characters such a Digimon, Pokemon, Japanom, etc.
> 
> Or that it at least needs to.


yes I agree to this, this guideline need to be spread to other areas, though my digimon OCs be fine :V


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

You know, Crysix, that practically guarantees they are going to investigate your "digimon"


----------



## ElCid (Feb 12, 2012)

Anyone who thinks it's fair to apply this same fucktarded guideline to Pokemon and Digimon, I dare you to show us all right now how you age up a fucking Pokemon or Digimon.


----------



## Ariosto (Feb 12, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Anyone who thinks it's fair to apply this same fucktarded guideline to Pokemon and Digimon, I dare you to show us all right now how you age up a fucking Pokemon or Digimon.



By evolving them :V

On the other hand, neither the games or the anime (and I guess the manga doesn't either) bother much with making them work like real animals (and there doesn't seem to be a direct correlation between age and evolution). I guess it could be applied to baby Pokemon and first stages, hypothetically speaking, of course.
As for Digimon, basically the same as above, only replace the equivalent terms.


----------



## ElCid (Feb 12, 2012)

AristÃ³crates Carranza said:


> By evolving them :V



Evolutionary stage =/= age, unless it's clearly a baby-level Pokemon. But even those can go without evolving well into adulthood if the trainer so chooses.

So yeah, definitely doesn't apply.

Also, if Sciggles bans Digimon stuff, Neer better be ready to say goodbye to his gallery.


----------



## Ariosto (Feb 12, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Evolutionary stage =/= age, unless it's clearly a baby-level Pokemon. But even those can go without evolving well into adulthood if the trainer so chooses.



Uuummm... the ":V" thingy means I was being sarcastic (also, read the rest of my post, where I mention this issue).


----------



## ElCid (Feb 12, 2012)

I did, and even just applying it to first-stage Pokemon is pretty stupid, since a number of Pokemon only have one stage, and nothing's stopping a trainer from not evolving a Pokemon.

Trying to apply it to Digimon is even stupider. They don't all Digivolve into big buff-ass monstrosities or blatantly adult humanoids, you know. And like I said before, that'd require Neer to get rid of his gallery. Last time I checked, Guilmon's heavily featured throughout. Guilmon, a rookie Digimon with infantile behaviour.


----------



## Ariosto (Feb 12, 2012)

ElCid said:


> I did, and even just applying it to first-stage Pokemon is pretty stupid, since a number of Pokemon only have one stage, and nothing's stopping a trainer from not evolving a Pokemon.
> 
> Trying to apply it to Digimon is even stupider. They don't all Digivolve into big buff-ass monstrosities or blatantly adult humanoids, you know.



Fair enough, then. I'll concede these points.


----------



## Smaug (Feb 12, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Anyone who thinks it's fair to apply this same fucktarded guideline to Pokemon and Digimon, I dare you to show us all right now how you age up a fucking Pokemon or Digimon.


Let me ask you a question, since you didn't answer the first time around - why are you against these guidelines personally? I mean, given from the nature of your anime reviews in your journals, you sound like you're -AGAINST- cute/underage-looking characters getting involved in sexual acts. But now that furry porn is involved, you're going to defend the notion instead?

The logic behind this makes no sense. Probably because there isn't any.


----------



## Mali-Kyte (Feb 12, 2012)

ElCid said:


> Anyone who thinks it's fair to apply this same fucktarded guideline to Pokemon and Digimon, I dare you to show us all right now how you age up a fucking Pokemon or Digimon.



*Honestly I don't think they can make this a rule for Pokemon nor Digimon since their evolutions is not based on age but by leveling up, stones, or their mood =/

So there can be an adult charmander but a baby charizard by that logic >__>*


----------



## Mali-Kyte (Feb 12, 2012)

Smaug said:


> Let me ask you a question, since you didn't answer the first time around - why are you against these guidelines personally? I mean, given from the nature of your anime reviews in your journals, you sound like you're -AGAINST- cute/underage-looking characters getting involved in sexual acts. But now that furry porn is involved, you're going to defend the notion instead?
> 
> The logic behind this makes no sense. Probably because there isn't any.



*I think alot of people are taking this as a "Draw it this way or be banned" kinda way =/
Guidelines are usually vague but they are meant to SHOW you how to make something look. Doesn't mean it HAS to be drawn exactly as she did but as long as it doesn't look under aged.

I personally don't have a problem with it since I already draw all cahracters as adults. Also like I said to him or her

I don't think that rule can apply to pokemon or digimon since they do not evolve by age but by leveling up, stones, or mood so by that logic there can be an adult charmander but a baby charizard =/*


----------



## Smaug (Feb 12, 2012)

Oh, I know that, but I'm asking ElCid specifically, cause what you just said was clarified earlier on, and he's acting like he still doesn't get it :|


----------



## Mali-Kyte (Feb 12, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> *HELL YEAH!*
> 
> But in all seriousness, it was only a matter of time until the move on sonic artwork was done, because it's not even close to being rationalized away. The reason being they even say how old sonic is and that, they could only hide behind "but it's my style" for so long.



*I'm happy about the possible feral rule that land before time and lion king shit disturbs me the most....

Though I still don' see how they can do it to pokemon and digimon since their evolutions aren't based off age but how they evolve. By that logic there can be a baby charmander but a baby charizard >.>*


----------



## Mali-Kyte (Feb 12, 2012)

Smaug said:


> Oh, I know that, but I'm asking ElCid specifically, cause what you just said was clarified earlier on, and he's acting like he still doesn't get it :|



*Seems simple enough for me, then again I don't draw children unless its a sweet pic like the one I did for my friend of him and his daughter. I dunno I just think that people need to stop letting every little thing offend them.*


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 12, 2012)

Mali-Kyte said:


> *I'm happy about the possible feral rule that land before time and lion king shit disturbs me the most....
> 
> Though I still don' see how they can do it to pokemon and digimon since their evolutions aren't based off age but how they evolve. By that logic there can be a baby charmander but a baby charizard >.>*



ElCid is forgetting the OP, and you are following along in his reasoning. It never really even mentioned "technical age", it was about not* appearing* underage. If the rules applied to pokemon and digimon, it wouldn't matter if Pikachu was in his 50's, if he still looked like young canon Pikachu you would not be able to upload a drawing of Ash fucking him. It's a fairly straight-forward concept that eliminates loop-holes that can be easily abused. Frankly, if the porn looks underaged, it's probably still meant to appeal to the same fetish no matter what age is claimed.

Personally, I lump pokemon/digimon porn in with beastiality porn, and pretend it's all just a bad story mean people made up. Throw elements of pedophilia on top of that, and we're talking about something that doesn't even need a discussion.


----------



## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> if he still looked like young canon Pikachu you would not be able to upload a drawing of Ash fucking him.



This point gets to the heart of the matter: how can you determine Pikachu's age from looks alone when Pikachu doesn't grow or change in appearance? How can anyone determine an age for a character with an essentially age-neutral appearance in its original canon -- a character such as, oh, I dunno, Sonic the Hedgehog?


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 12, 2012)

Glaice said:


> In slightly related news..
> 
> I've heard some frightening words that feral, digimon and pokemon porn will be cracked down upon. Yea, as long as Dragoneer is a Murasdramon you want to bet he won't change to an entirely different character?
> 
> And when is it _YOUR_ site too, Scigs? You were NOT around with him when Neer was given the reigns in the earlier years of the site.



From what it appears is that the thread in question is a doctored screen shot. Unless someone can bring up the full thread it was from? http://i.imgur.com/4bEsw.png (Site is down) but the threading makes it look like Sciggles is replying to herself from the nesting of the thread with the smaller font of "Sciggles" too?


----------



## Mali-Kyte (Feb 12, 2012)

Heimdal said:


> ElCid is forgetting the OP, and you are following along in his reasoning. It never really even mentioned "technical age", it was about not* appearing* underage. If the rules applied to pokemon and digimon, it wouldn't matter if Pikachu was in his 50's, if he still looked like young canon Pikachu you would not be able to upload a drawing of Ash fucking him. It's a fairly straight-forward concept that eliminates loop-holes that can be easily abused. Frankly, if the porn looks underaged, it's probably still meant to appeal to the same fetish no matter what age is claimed.
> 
> Personally, I lump pokemon/digimon porn in with beastiality porn, and pretend it's all just a bad story mean people made up. Throw elements of pedophilia on top of that, and we're talking about something that doesn't even need a discussion.



*I meant to say adult charmander. I understand whats going on and what the admins are talking about. I was just saying my 2 cents is all. Personally I don't care because I draw only adults anyway but I do feel for the artists it would affect.*


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 12, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> From what it appears is that the thread in question is a doctored screen shot. Unless someone can bring up the full thread it was from? http://i.imgur.com/4bEsw.png (Site is down) but the threading makes it look like Sciggles is replying to herself from the nesting of the thread with the smaller font of "Sciggles" too?




Since it is doctored could the offender who made it be banned because thats just bringing up unnecessary drama.

Cause i found another thing http://i.imgur.com/iogo5.jpg


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 12, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Since it is doctored could the offender who made it be banned because thats just bringing up unnecessary drama.
> 
> Cause i found another thing http://i.imgur.com/iogo5.jpg



I already informed the staff about that one too, but since the site is down - we'll have to wait and get to it.


----------



## Volkodav (Feb 12, 2012)

Thats the shittiest edit
the fucking comment threading dont even ;ine up

smfh


----------



## LizardKing (Feb 12, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Since it is doctored could the offender who made it be banned because thats just bringing up unnecessary drama.
> 
> Cause i found another thing http://i.imgur.com/iogo5.jpg



Can we also ban people who post large amounts of text as a jpg with piss-awful compression?

You know, I bet that screenshot will still be circulating around random journals months from now.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 12, 2012)

LizardKing said:


> Can we also ban people who post large amounts of text as a jpg with piss-awful compression?
> 
> You know, I bet that screenshot will still be circulating around random journals months from now.




Man did you see their messages? For fucks sake clean that shit out.


----------



## Volkodav (Feb 12, 2012)

I don't even think "doctored" is a correct term for that screenshot. It's more like back alley, south american/mexican, so-cheap-its-almost-free plastic surgeon "doctored"


----------



## Aetius (Feb 12, 2012)

Glaice said:


> In slightly related news..
> 
> I've heard some frightening words that feral, digimon and pokemon porn will be cracked down upon. Yea, as long as Dragoneer is a Murasdramon you want to bet he won't change to an entirely different character?



If such a thing happens I will wear my Red Guard uniform and love FA forever.


----------



## Ben (Feb 12, 2012)

Glaice said:


> In slightly related news..
> 
> I've heard some frightening words that feral, digimon and pokemon porn will be cracked down upon. Yea, as long as Dragoneer is a Murasdramon you want to bet he won't change to an entirely different character?
> 
> And when is it _YOUR_ site too, Scigs? You were NOT around with him when Neer was given the reigns in the earlier years of the site.



I'm not really a fan of FA by any means, but I'm honestly kind of flabbergasted at how many people couldn't figure out that the screenshot that was based on was entirely fake. The font changed randomly, the comments weren't threaded correctly, and it just all around looked sketchy. I mean really, how did _so many of you_ fall for that, the guy who doctored that wasn't even trying. I just don't get it.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

Ben said:


> I'm not really a fan of FA by any means, but I'm honestly kind of flabbergasted at how many people couldn't figure out that the screenshot that was based on was entirely fake. The font changed randomly, the comments weren't threaded correctly, and it just all around looked sketchy. I mean really, how did _so many of you_ fall for that, the guy who doctored that wasn't even trying. I just don't get it.



It's simple really. When people make up their mind about something they like to grasp at anything they can find to justify it without even looking into it's validity.


----------



## Armaetus (Feb 12, 2012)

If it is indeed fake then it shows Scigs knows better than to spew nonsense that can further kill the site.


----------



## Ben (Feb 12, 2012)

Glaice said:


> If it is indeed fake



You're saying this as if it's even within the realm of possibility that it was real. 

Again, I'm not a fan of FA, but you only damage your own credibility when you go chasing every single rabbit without making sure it's even a rabbit at all.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 12, 2012)

Ben said:


> You're saying this as if it's even within the realm of possibility that it was real.
> 
> Again, I'm not a fan of FA, but you only damage your own credibility *when you go chasing every single rabbit without making sure it's even a rabbit at all.*





*ITS A TRAP*


----------



## drafan5 (Feb 12, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Since it is doctored could the offender who made it be banned because thats just bringing up unnecessary drama.
> 
> Cause i found another thing http://i.imgur.com/iogo5.jpg



that's fake too

notice how EVERY user has a "no icon selected" icon

and the reply box isn't in the center.


----------



## Ben (Feb 12, 2012)

drafan5 said:


> that's fake too
> 
> notice how EVERY user has a "no icon selected" icon
> 
> and the reply box isn't in the center.



There's a function on FA that lets you turn off other people's avatars from displaying. And sometimes the comment box justifies to the left randomly. Believe me, that screenshot is actually legit.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

drafan5 said:


> that's fake too
> 
> notice how EVERY user has a "no icon selected" icon
> 
> and the reply box isn't in the center.


I kinda wish that the person who made that fake screenshot was better at photoshopping cause then we could've had some decent level of drama before getting shot down as well.


----------



## Xenke (Feb 12, 2012)

drafan5 said:


> that's fake too
> 
> notice how EVERY user has a "no icon selected" icon
> 
> and the reply box isn't in the center.



You had to try really hard to overlook the content that's actually been faked, didn't you?


----------



## Kayla (Feb 12, 2012)

Xenke said:


> You had to try really hard to overlook the content that's actually been faked, didn't you?



Your avatar scares me.

áƒš(à² ç›Šà² áƒš)


----------



## Ben (Feb 12, 2012)

Wait, so we're going from people converging around the fake screenshot as being real, to the real screenshot as being fake just because no one knows about the feature to let people hide all avatars? I mean obviously the submission itself is fake, but the comments and description and all that are one hundred percent real. Come on guys.


----------



## drafan5 (Feb 12, 2012)

ah, I see

sorry then.


----------



## Volkodav (Feb 12, 2012)

drafan5 said:


> that's fake too
> 
> notice how EVERY user has a "no icon selected" icon
> 
> and the reply box isn't in the center.



no its rea. i know, ive seen pixels in my days.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

Hmm...this is relevant: http://twistedsifter.com/2011/02/born-free-baby-tossing-photoshop/


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Hmm...this is relevant: http://twistedsifter.com/2011/02/born-free-baby-tossing-photoshop/


My favorite is the baby astronaut.

But yeah, my question to the person who photo-shopped is why didn't they take actual discussion and edit the wording into it?
I mean jeez all they had to do was go into one of sciggles' journals, screencap, edit out the original wording and choose the same font and bam instant drama.


----------



## Volkodav (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Hmm...this is relevant: http://twistedsifter.com/2011/02/born-free-baby-tossing-photoshop/



noscript wont let me look :/
but i found some funny shit 
http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/b/b3/Alone.jpg
http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/5/5b/21312wd2wef.jpg


----------



## Aetius (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Hmm...this is relevant: http://twistedsifter.com/2011/02/born-free-baby-tossing-photoshop/



TEAMWORK!


----------



## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> My favorite is the baby astronaut.
> 
> But yeah, my question to the person who photo-shopped is why didn't they take actual discussion and edit the wording into it?
> I mean jeez all they had to do was go into one of sciggles' journals, screencap, edit out the original wording and choose the same font and bam instant drama.



My bigger question is why would a person even feel justified doing this to anyone. If one has a legitimate issue with a person, or a site making stuff up doesn't help their cause ...really it doesn't. When people can call them out on what they are doing look at what it can do for them. Look at how it makes them look. Then what of their issue be in legitimate or not? It can cause people to ignore it. Of course people will do this for reasons of pure enjoyment or malice. Either way it's silly. There are better uses of a person's time.

EDIT: I think my favorite is still the shark one.


----------



## Volkodav (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> My bigger question is why would a person even feel justified doing this to anyone. If one has a legitimate issue with a person, or a site making stuff up doesn't help their cause ...really it doesn't. When people can call them out on what they are doing look at what it can do for them. Look at how it makes them look. Then what of their issue be in legitimate or not? It can cause people to ignore it. Of course people will do this for reasons of pure enjoyment or malice. Either way it's silly. There are better uses of a person's time.
> 
> EDIT: I think my favorite is still the shark one.



hahaa, shark or football player


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Clayton said:


> hahaa, shark or football player


INTERCEPTION!
*throws baby to ground in celebration*


----------



## Ozriel (Feb 12, 2012)

Thus a new argument term was coined this day called "tossing the baby".


----------



## Ryuujin (Feb 12, 2012)

I just read this whole thread.

Now I feel like I need to go get a case of Mike's.

But seriously, I do agree with the rules that were put forth, but I don't feel like arguing with anyone right now.


----------



## Ben (Feb 12, 2012)

Zeke Shadowfyre said:


> Thus a new argument term was coined this day called "tossing the baby".



Except someone pointed out that in that picture, the one with the bag is the one that's really photoshopped, since there's some unexplained white-space underneath the bag-strap.

But whatever, the screencap is still fake.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Ryuujin said:


> Now I feel like I need to go get a case of Mike's.


You, me, and half the forum.


----------



## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

Ben said:


> Except someone pointed out that in that picture, the one with the bag is the one that's really photoshopped, since there's some unexplained white-space underneath the bag-strap.
> 
> But whatever, the screencap is still fake.



I think you missed the point. 

The original image of course was of two people throwing a back pack. Then someone "Threw/tossed in a baby" into the picture and got rid of the back pack. People flipped out(people actually flipped out thinking it was real). The parallel here is that any time someone in an argument uses a screen shot or image to prove something...it's like "throwing/tossing in a baby". Is it real? Maybe, maybe not...but are we going to lash out, accuse, or convict someone based on a maybe?

Then it comes full circle here and this is a powerful message for everyone that is online. You need to be careful of the things you see before you accept them as real. It's easy to hurt people with false information.


----------



## Ben (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> I think you missed the point.
> 
> The original image of course was of two people throwing a back pack. Then someone "Threw/tossed in a baby" into the picture and got rid of the back pack. People flipped out(people actually flipped out thinking it was real). The parallel here is that any time someone in an argument uses a screen shot or image to prove something...it's like "throwing/tossing in a baby". Is it real? Maybe, maybe not...but are we going to lash out, accuse, or convict someone based on a maybe?
> 
> Then it comes full circle here and this is a powerful message for everyone that is online. You need to be careful of the things you see before you accept them as real. It's easy to hurt people with false information.



No no, I fully got the point. I was just pointing out the irony in how the purported "original" image is actually photoshopped. That's all.


----------



## dinosaurdammit (Feb 12, 2012)

Crusader Mike said:


> TEAMWORK!




just for you 

http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq250/LotharOfTheDinosaurs/flyingbaby.gif


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> EDIT: I think my favorite is still the shark one.



Baby Jumped the Shark.


----------



## Soline (Feb 12, 2012)

Aaaaand the MLP version of this will come out....

Oh yeah, that's right, when MLP isn't the popufur fad anymore


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

If you want to test it, look for some canon "child" mlp characters and see if you can find some porn of them then share with the rest of the class. (well, the admins lol, I'd rather not see it.)


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 12, 2012)

Soline said:


> Aaaaand the MLP version of this will come out....
> 
> Oh yeah, that's right, when MLP isn't the popufur fad anymore



_Oh snap!_ Bronies are gonna be feeling that one for days!

You need to write these down somewhere!


----------



## Armaetus (Feb 12, 2012)

Furaffinity twitter has made a statement that the feral/pokemon/digimon porn ban is false.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Soline said:


> Aaaaand the MLP version of this will come out....
> 
> Oh yeah, that's right, when MLP isn't the popufur fad anymore


Except that-
1)The feral ban isn't true.
2)I don't think you can call a mainstream fandom way larger than furry a fad.
3)You're blowing things out your ass.
4)A fuckton of us bronies would welcome a ban on mlp porn.
5)You're using a slippery slope argument.
6)This new ban isn't actually a new rule, it's just the staff beginning to actually enforce the rule.
7)Porn of the fillies and foals already are against the rules, it's just not enforced.

and quite frankly I wouldn't give two shits if this actually happened.


----------



## Heimdal (Feb 12, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Except that-
> 1)The feral ban isn't true.
> 2)I don't think you can call a mainstream fandom way larger than furry a fad.
> 3)You're blowing things out your ass.
> ...



I kinda thought they were making a snarky remark regarding that baby-tossing photomanip that conversation had derailed on, to which I thought "what the hell does MLP have to do with anything?". But given their post count I should have assumed they didn't bother reading through to the end of the thread at all.

Good job bringing this (sort of) back on topic, though.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Hey Dragoneer, can you please for the love of on-topical debate just kill the fear mongering cold?

I mean we've had godwin's laws, equating the staff to nazi germany, claiming persecution and all matter of shit flinging by people mad at the canon style sonic porn ban and also said people destroying other threads by bringing this crap into other threads to purposefully destroy them.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

"There are some rumors going around we are banning Sonic, Digimon, Pokemon and feral art from FA. This is not true, and false," says Furaffinity. Oh god it is a double negative!!! 

But back on topic.


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> "There are some rumors going around we are banning Sonic, Digimon, Pokemon and feral art from FA. This is not true, and false," says Furaffinity. Oh god it is a double negative!!!
> 
> But back on topic.


Don't forget MLP: FIM.
Half the thread has been the fear rumormongers saying that if canon style sonic porn is banned then *all* of mlp whether porn, mature or general will have to be banned as well.

I'm starting to think all this drama isn't even about the sonic porn, it's just a excuse for them to create a shit fest calling for all of mlp to be banned.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

Oh yes, I apologize. I forgot to add my comment that bronies were in our base camping our spawn.

Granted, it always suprises me that porn of trademarked characters gets the slack it does. But then, the hassle of stopping it I guess.


----------



## RTDragon (Feb 12, 2012)

Glaice said:


> Furaffinity twitter has made a statement that the feral/pokemon/digimon porn ban is false.



Though with that fake screenshot someone is going to be banned for sure.


----------



## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Half the thread has been the fear rumormongers saying that if canon style sonic porn is banned then *all* of mlp whether porn, mature or general will have to be banned as well.



There's a reason for the fear: Sciggles springing these "aging up" guidelines -- on characters with "age-neutral" official art, no less -- out of nowhere.

As you said: Dragoneer needs to quash the fearmongering with a lengthy statement about all of this.


----------



## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

Banning will just feed the conspiracy though. Like the moon landings!

*edit* 

See post above! The conspiracy lives! Cause yes, age guidelines just sprung up out of nowhere. All that cub porn banning being already established. Conspiracy I say.

(And of course, the obvious solution to solving fearmongering is reasonable discussion. That just works so well. )


----------



## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> There's a reason for the fear: Sciggles springing these "aging up" guidelines -- on characters with "age-neutral" official art, no less -- out of nowhere.
> 
> As you said: Dragoneer needs to quash the fearmongering with a lengthy statement about all of this.


I'm not afraid cause I clearly don't give a shit if all that fan art porn was banned.

So go continue running around like a chicken with it's head cut off even though any sensible person would realize this doesn't change any rules and wouldn't give a shit cause all it does really is clarify what the admins look for when debating if a pornographic pic violates the rules.


----------



## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Cause yes, age guidelines just sprung up out of nowhere. All that cub porn banning being already established.



I didn't say "age" guidelines sprang up out of nowhere -- I said the "aging up" guidelines came out of nowhere. I haven't heard of FA laying out guidelines such as the ones Sciggles suggested before this week.


----------



## Dragoneer (Feb 12, 2012)

GreenReaper said:


> It's traffic rank. FA has gone from 7,500th  in the world to closer to 15,000th in two years.


It's traffic  rank. Which, frankly, means nothing. During the past two years, we also  modified Fur Affinity into two domains - furaffinity.net and facdn.net.  Much of the traffic and bandwidth is split over the two domains, and if  we merged them back together, you would see the numbers be more  consistent.

As it stands, you did not point out that fact. FACDN has some  significant numbers behind it, and we recompiled the domains I'm sure  the grim outlook you're supposedly portraying would show a rather  different story.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> I didn't say "age" guidelines sprang up out of nowhere -- I said the "aging up" guidelines came out of nowhere. I haven't heard of FA laying out guidelines such as the ones Sciggles suggested before this week.


Ughhhhh.
The guideline didn't come out of nowhere either, it's basically what the admins look for ALREADY when debating if something violates the cub ban; all they really did was post what they already look for.


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## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> The guideline didn't come out of nowhere either, it's basically what the admins look for ALREADY when debating if something violates the cub ban; all they really did was post what they already look for.



This is my point: if the admins had made these guidelines (or, rather, well-written guidelines) clear from the start, this whole situation wouldn't be a "situation".


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## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

Ha! I knew that graph was incredibly insignificant. 

But I guess this proves the lesson, CannonFodder. Never tell people how you make your decisions.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> This is my point: if the admins had made these guidelines (or, rather, well-written guidelines) clear from the start, this whole situation wouldn't be a "situation".


No, your original point was saying that the staff are making draconian rules, but when it was pointed out that it's just the enforcement on rules already on the book and the staff finally giving clarity into how the site operates, like people have been asking for months, you backpedaled to this current rehashed argument.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> This is my point: if the admins had made these guidelines (or, rather, well-written guidelines) clear from the start, this whole situation wouldn't be a "situation".



I know it is a bit late but there has been attempts to let people in on some sort of guide-line as early as 2010: http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/88335-A-clarification-on-sonic-underage . Just to say it's not like right after the ban we didn't have something similar. Hm...the original ban happened in November I believe? This thread was posted in December. In fact it was less than two weeks afterwards.


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## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

I never once called the guidelines "draconian". I've got nothing against the cub porn ban (since I'm not a fan of such content), and I know FA has the right to say what content is or isn't allowed on its site.  -- I was worried because these guidelines seem to be treading dangerously close to dictating how artists must draw Sonic characters to avoid having their artwork deleted while simultaneously ignoring other characters with "age-neutral" official appearances (regardless of their level of anthropomorphism).


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## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

There is a big difference Freehaven.

They are not saying, you must draw sonic this way to post your porn of him. They are saying, porn that does not meet the guideline does not have a place on FA.


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## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> They are not saying, you must draw sonic this way to post your porn of him. They are saying, porn that does not meet the guideline does not have a place on FA.



Those two statements seem remarkably similar and have the same general idea: "Draw Sonic porn this way, or your porn doesn't stay on FA."

Again: FA has the full right to say what is or isn't allowed on this site -- but I don't see FA making these sorts of exhaustive guidelines for other characters with "toony" appearances.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 12, 2012)

Freehaven said:


> Again: FA has the full right to say what is or isn't allowed on this site -- but I don't see FA making these sorts of exhaustive guidelines for other characters with "toony" appearances.



yet... 

It's entirely possible this was discussed before and maybe guidelines haven't been drawn yet. As the thread Trp posted, it's been in the works for at least Sonic art for a while and obviously the same problem is with toony characters. It's not like the aging up hasn't been suggested for them too. But just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't equate to "Picking on Sonic art"


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## Freehaven (Feb 12, 2012)

Arshes Nei said:


> But just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't equate to "Picking on Sonic art"



No, it doesn't immediately equate to singling out Sonic art -- but it could easily be interpreted that way, couldn't it?


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## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

One is coercive, the other is just censorship. (oh rehash. Yadda yadda censorship is an inevitable part of modern life blah blah)

Secondly, the entire thing isnt' about "toony" appearances. The guideline is there because of canon ages. These characters have a trademarked identity that is believed to provide an age. Thus, they fall into the original cub porn ban.


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## ferretsage (Feb 12, 2012)

Hello, I am responsible for the screenshot posted at http://i.imgur.com/iogo5.jpg 

Although, GAWD, I didn't upload that screencap to that website -- or compress it so hideously. 

The screenshot I took was legitimate from this URL (now deleted) http://www.furaffinity.net/view/7387510/ .

What you are looking at is a legitimate screenshot of a faked uploaded screenshot. Zander_stealthpaw uploaded the original doctored image http://i.imgur.com/4bEsw.png to his FA account (he was duped as well into thinking it was real), and then I took a screencap of that. The fact that everyone has the default icon is from a setting in my control panel.

When I took the screencap, I believed it to be for real. Now I know better. I have already dismissed this hoax elsewhere on the Internet.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 12, 2012)

Life lesson Ferretsage, screenshots of screenshots. Not a good idea. That is how Bigfoot rumors got started.


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## ferretsage (Feb 12, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> Life lesson Ferretsage, screenshots of screenshots. Not a good idea. That is how Bigfoot rumors got started.



As long as people don't start making corny references to Inception... :\


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## Volkodav (Feb 12, 2012)

lostcat461 said:


> . That is how Bigfoot rumors got started.



..what


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

ferretsage said:


> Hello, I am responsible for the screenshot posted at http://i.imgur.com/iogo5.jpg
> 
> Although, GAWD, I didn't upload that screencap to that website -- or compress it so hideously.
> 
> ...



Question: When you saw this thing uploaded by this person did you make any attempt to contact some of the Administrators about it in a serious manner? You could have filed a ticket concerned about it if you thought it was real. If users come forth appropriately with a claim we listen. We look into things to the best of our ability. How can we do that if people just run around dropping such things all over and don't initially take their issue to us?

If there is a perceived concern that one of our admins is doing something they shouldn't (and it's legitimate) WE WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THAT. That goes for everyone.


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## ferretsage (Feb 12, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> Question: When you saw this thing uploaded by this person did you make any attempt to contact some of the Administrators about it in a serious manner? You could have filed a ticket concerned about it if you thought it was real. If users come forth appropriately with a claim we listen. We look into things to the best of our ability. How can we do that if people just run around dropping such things all over and don't initially take their issue to us?
> 
> If there is a perceived concern that one of our admins is doing something they shouldn't (and it's legitimate) WE WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THAT. That goes for everyone.



No, I didn't. That was foolish of me. But, to be fair, neither did anyone else -- and I wasn't the first (or even the fiftieth) to believe it.  Most all of the people who saw my screencap believed it, just as I did. I will give mad credit to GreenReaper who was the first to point out that the fonts within the uploaded faked screenshot that I then took a legitimate screenshot of were not the same. (and you know I'm just going to LOVE typing that out over and over again explaining that I am not the person who faked the original screenshot -- I only took a screenshot of it -- poetic justice, I suppose.)

I did, however, at least own up to the fact that I helped to unwittingly be a total fool in perpetuating a hoax, and issued a full retraction. I suppose the parable of the feathers on the doorsteps carried away by the wind is fully applicable here. Eating my words now. Throwing myself at the mercy of the court. "Let this be a lesson, an' all."


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## CannonFodder (Feb 12, 2012)

^It's cool, if it wasn't you who was fooled then someone else was going to post it anyhow.  Thank god it wasn't someone popular though, cause that would have made this incident look insignificant in comparison.

The downside is that now that whoever who photoshopped the image now knows how easy it is to fool the fandom into believing a fake screencap is we might see more in the future.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 12, 2012)

ferretsage said:


> No, I didn't. That was foolish of me. But, to be fair, neither did anyone else -- and I wasn't the first (or even the fiftieth) to believe it.  Most all of the people who saw my screencap believed it, just as I did. I will give mad credit to GreenReaper who was the first to point out that the fonts within the uploaded faked screenshot that I then took a legitimate screenshot of were not the same. (and you know I'm just going to LOVE typing that out over and over again explaining that I am not the person who faked the original screenshot -- I only took a screenshot of it -- poetic justice, I suppose.)
> 
> I did, however, at least own up to the fact that I helped to unwittingly be a total fool in perpetuating a hoax, and issued a full retraction. I suppose the parable of the feathers on the doorsteps carried away by the wind is fully applicable here. Eating my words now. Throwing myself at the mercy of the court. "Let this be a lesson, an' all."



Since the site is still down I can't go and actually look up to see if anyone actually reported this issue. That is why I asked. It is probably true that many people didn't think to report it. That said I don't see any point to sitting here and accusing anyone of being the one who made the image. Chances are we will never know and that's not what matters. What matters is hopefully in the future when people have issues with staff (legitimate ones) or concerns about what other people are claiming about the staff (and what they may or may not be saying) that they come talk to us. We can't do anything about it if people don't approach us in a constructive and civil manner.


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## Devious Bane (Feb 13, 2012)

Trpdwarf said:


> What matters is hopefully in the future when people have issues with staff (legitimate ones) or concerns about what other people are claiming about the staff (and what they may or may not be saying) that they come talk to us. We can't do anything about it if people don't approach us in a constructive and civil manner.



You're expecting too much. Considering the word of the administration is as good as a gallon of milk left out in the rain, _*NO ONE*_ in their right mind will trust anyone in the administration to handle accusations of problems with members in it. Even if there was someone who would actually bring the matter up, they risk loosing their position as admin and/or getting banned and getting the person who filed the trouble ticket/report banned. FA has made a history of doing this so there is little to no faith in the abilities and integrity of the administration.


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## lostcat461 (Feb 13, 2012)

Devious Bane. You are right. It is like the risk of calling out a dishonest juror while on trial. If you don't do it, you are screwed. If you do it, you run the risk of being screwed. 

The rub, however, is pretty simple. If that suspicion is true, no one in their right mind would want to be a part of a website like that. Therefore, saying people won't report it for fear of being persecuted/banned is just going to add power to that fear. At least if you go into it rationally, it will be a moral victory.


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## CerbrusNL (Feb 13, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> You're expecting too much. Considering the word of the administration is as good as a gallon of milk left out in the rain, _*NO ONE*_ in their right mind will trust anyone in the administration to handle accusations of problems with members in it. Even if there was someone who would actually bring the matter up, they risk loosing their position as admin and/or getting banned and getting the person who filed the trouble ticket/report banned. FA has made a history of doing this so there is little to no faith in the abilities and integrity of the administration.



Bane, seriously,

I have never seen that much bullshit in 1 forum post.
If there is a issue with a staff member, a user should always report it.
As long as the report looks anything remotely like plausible / reasonable (aka, the user is being calm about it, and the report isn't something like "x deleted my cub porn!!!"), we will look into it.

If you want to spread some doomsday propaganda about FA, make sure there's a core of truth in it. -.-


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## Devious Bane (Feb 13, 2012)

CerbrusNL said:


> If you want to spread some doomsday propaganda about FA, make sure there's a core of truth in it. -.-





> Considering the word of the administration is as good as a gallon of milk left out in the rain...
> FA has made a history of doing this so there is little to no faith in the abilities and integrity of the administration.


See Also:
- Krystal Can't Enjoy Her Sandwich
- Chewfox Incident
- Banning users for posting on a banned user's page. Stated 24hour bans lasting as long as at least 1 month.(Most Recent: Wolfmurr Incident)
- Dragoneer adding Sciggles to the admin team despite saying it will not happen.
- Dragoneer not firing a staff member when they show complete disregard for site rules.
- The Summer update that did not happen.
This is only the more known things however.

Indeed, that's a lot of garbage. Good job guys.


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## RTDragon (Feb 13, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> See Also:
> - Banning users for posting on a banned user's page. Stated 24hour bans lasting as long as at least 1 month.(Most Recent: Wolfmurr Incident)



I remember the wolfmurr incident that was about a year ago. Considering the infamous Help me i'm lonely i have MSN submission during the FA read only mode. also  the fact he was underage from several of his journals. Though if i recall wasn't  he permanently banned finally cause of his constant antics and violations.


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## Jessica U. Ingmann (Feb 13, 2012)

Let's get back on-topic here, shall we?  

So!  _Sonic_ porn!  I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it seems like animal characters in the _Sonic_ universe age faster than human characters.  Amy Rose is like what, 12?  But as in the real world, animal characters apparently age faster than human characters.  She lived by herself in Station Square for a while (_Sonic Adventure_), then apparently moved to some apartment in the suburbs and was apparently sharing the apartment with Cream the Rabbit or something? (_Sonic Battle_)  Or maybe Cream was just visiting.  I don't remember.  *Either way*, I don't think a 12-year old kid can legally get an apartment by themselves here in reality land. (Not in the United States anyway.)  This tells us one of two things:
 - Amy Rose (and by conversion, Sonic and others) is considered a legal adult in Sonic's world.  Or...
 - The people of Sonic's world are _really lax_ about letting non-humans rent/own things.

So to drive the point, it appears that characters like Amy, Rouge, Sonic, Knuckles, Blaze, and Vanilla are all adults despite their differences in size or proportions.  Characters like Tails, Cream, and Marine however are not.  Of course, this may all be completely moot since they almost *all* "look like kids" and thus are steam-shoveled in under the "no cub art" rule.  :B

And then of course there's the alternative to the whole argument in that "if they're drawn as adults, no problem" which apparently translates to "draw them completely off-model and you're okay" to most everyone.  But then you get some wiseass who draws something like... Cream and Sonic doing the dirty, completely in Sega-Sonic style, but Cream is drawn as an adult.  At that point, the argument I just went over is raised all over again!  Good times!  

I don't think there'll ever be an "agreement" on the topic.  "Either draw them more human-like and as adults or don't draw them at all" seems to be the final word.  :B


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## dinosaurdammit (Feb 13, 2012)

Jessica U. Ingmann said:


> Let's get back on-topic here, shall we?
> 
> So!  _Sonic_ porn!  I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it seems like animal characters in the _Sonic_ universe age faster than human characters.  Amy Rose is like what, 12?  But as in the real world, animal characters apparently age faster than human characters.  She lived by herself in Station Square for a while (_Sonic Adventure_), then apparently moved to some apartment in the suburbs and was apparently sharing the apartment with Cream the Rabbit or something? (_Sonic Battle_)  Or maybe Cream was just visiting.  I don't remember.  *Either way*, I don't think a 12-year old kid can legally get an apartment by themselves here in reality land. (Not in the United States anyway.)  This tells us one of two things:
> - Amy Rose (and by conversion, Sonic and others) is considered a legal adult in Sonic's world.  Or...
> - The people of Sonic's world are _really lax_ about letting non-humans rent/own things.



Look at pokemon- at 11 they are given a monster and sent on their way on their own into the great world. Digi destined? Pretty much 13 year olds roaming around with monsters doing fuck all whatever. Your point is moot.


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## RTDragon (Feb 13, 2012)

dinosaurdammit said:


> Look at pokemon- at 11 they are given a monster and sent on their way on their own into the great world. Digi destined? Pretty much 13 year olds roaming around with monsters doing fuck all whatever. Your point is moot.



Exception to that would be Digimon Savers (Digimon Data Squad) Quite a few of the characters were a lot older.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 13, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> Exception to that would be Digimon Savers (Digimon Data Squad) Quite a few of the characters were a lot older.


Digimon data squad was fucking terrible.
I wish I could go back in time and smack whoever thought it up with a baseball bat.


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## Bluflare (Feb 13, 2012)

Devious Bane said:


> See Also:- Krystal Can't Enjoy Her Sandwich- Chewfox Incident- Banning users for posting on a banned user's page. Stated 24hour bans lasting as long as at least 1 month.(Most Recent: Wolfmurr Incident)- Dragoneer adding Sciggles to the admin team despite saying it will not happen.- Dragoneer not firing a staff member when they show complete disregard for site rules.- The Summer update that did not happen.This is only the more known things however.Indeed, that's a lot of garbage. Good job guys.


and just to add one artist who did draw cub was actually suspended for *10 years

*But back to the topic at hand yes I agree with cannon digimon data squad was pretty stupid, but I don't see why that digimon, and pokemon should be considered cub period.


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## Armaetus (Feb 13, 2012)

10 years? I'm not even sure FA will still be around in 2022..


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## Deretto (Feb 13, 2012)

I've seen comment chains align incorrectly in the past when they start to get real lengthy and develop a bunch of branches.


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## RTDragon (Feb 13, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Digimon data squad was fucking terrible.
> I wish I could go back in time and smack whoever thought it up with a baseball bat.



Wait till you see Xros Wars especially episode 14 of the second season. Your going to be raging at the beginning and the end of that episode.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 13, 2012)

RTDragon said:


> Wait till you see *Xros Wars* especially *episode 14 of the second season*. Your going to be raging at the beginning and the end of that episode.


WHY DID YOU REMIND ME OF THAT EPISODE?! WHY?!


Glaice said:


> 10 years? I'm not even sure FA will still be around in 2022..


The cub artist got sent to the moon.


Bluflare said:


> and just to add one artist who did draw cub was actually suspended for *10 years
> 
> *But back to the topic at hand yes I agree with cannon digimon data squad was pretty stupid, but I don't see why that digimon, and pokemon should be considered cub period.


Easy, since canon style sonic porn got banned they want to take others with it as well.  Fifty dollars says that in all likelihood the person who photoshopped that fake screen shot was upset over the cub ban, so they want to piss others off in return.


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## Pinkuh (Feb 13, 2012)

I would like to point out to everyone here freaking out... that when it comes to Sonic porn being drawn TO THE STYLE OF THE SHOW... We have NOT allowed it in over a year. Sciggles was just trying to put in image what we have put in words. 

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/88335-A-clarification-on-sonic-underage

This thread has been on the site for OVER A YEAR.

You guys are literally freaking out over nothing, as obviously you using the site hasn't changed. 

What was said in that thread STILL Stands.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 13, 2012)

Pinkuh said:


> I would like to point out to everyone here freaking the fuck out... that when it comes to Sonic porn being drawn TO THE STYLE OF THE SHOW... We have NOT allowed it in over a year. Sciggles was just trying to put in image what we have put in words.
> 
> http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/88335-A-clarification-on-sonic-underage
> 
> ...


The last 21 pages has been saying the exact same thing, if the people panicking haven't gotten this after a year and two threads talking and I don't know how many posts about it then I highly doubt they're going to realize this.
It's a losing battle trying to get the people panicking to understand that it's not a new rule just a clarification.


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## Volkodav (Feb 13, 2012)

BluFlare, when someone is banned for "10 years" it means they're banned permanently.


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## Trpdwarf (Feb 13, 2012)

This thread is now going to be locked. We will condense what is important in this thread and with the one Pinkuh linked, open up a new thread with the bare details but make it a locked sticky. If people then have further questions or issues they can submit at T.T. and ask through that.


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