# Yet another admin quits & trouble tickets pile up - What is going on?



## Diocletian (Jul 10, 2011)

So, another admin has quit:

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2509059/

If an admin was never very active, it ultimately doesn't make much difference. However when admins are leaving at such a rate as they have been recently and not being replaced it's pretty obvious that the malaise which effects FA is riding higher in the saddle than usual. 

I note that Nylak hasn't returned, 17 days after being de'admined.  So that leaves 11 members of the administration team (AFAIK) + Dragoneer for tens of thousands of people.

What is going on here?


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

FA is dying, didn't you get the memo from /furi/?


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## CerbrusNL (Jul 10, 2011)

IMO, you're being a little pessimistic, here, Dio.
But, as I'm not sure what I can, or can not say about this "situation" you're describing, I'll just keep my flap shut.


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## ThreeDawg (Jul 10, 2011)

' As we see through a lens darkly '

The fact is, that you are correct. People are dropping like flies from the admin chain, and no new ducks are flying up to get into the targeting line. If FA wants to continue, there needs to be either

1. Eventual replacements. Take for instance ( Yes, using video game lore ) The Brotherhood of Steel. They never let new members in, only using existing members. Eventually, the great group of 500 dwindled down to 30 some people. We need to keep refreshing the line here, and get new people in, or risk going to the point were we have our pants permanently down.

2. Bring back, or convince past admins to return. True, some may have been a pain in the ass, and were kicked out for that reason. But you must admit, we need these guys more then we know.


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## Ben (Jul 10, 2011)

Technically the people in the technical team count as admins too, but either way, they seem to be losing three times as many admins as they've been adding. Also, I wasn't aware Nylak was deadmined-- was it because of the whole "asking for pirated software" thing?


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

I wonder why



Ben said:


> Technically the people in the technical team count as admins too, but either way, they seem to be losing three times as many admins as they've been adding. Also, I wasn't aware Nylak was deadmined-- was it because of the whole "asking for pirated software" thing?


 
IIRC, yeah, but don't take my word as fact. idk


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## Diocletian (Jul 10, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> as I'm not sure what I can, or can not say about this "situation" you're describing, I'll just keep my flap shut.


 
So there is a 'situation' then.

What about this 'situation' is so terrible that it absolutely must be kept secret?

Why are members of staff frightened of telling people what's going on?

In the absence of explanations, people may turn to speculation. My speculation:

Dragoneer has little time for running FA at the moment (and may be actively avoiding dealing with things at times) and  as he is very controlling but inconstant staff are unsure of what they're allowed to do or say and are frightened that if they speak out (even in private) or try and fix certain things themselves they will upset him and get kicked out. In the meanwhile, they are demoralized and not communicating well and a few bury themselves in trouble tickets, doing what they can.

Lots of niggling problems (as well as big ones) are building up because Dragoneer won't or doesn't want to deal with them and no one else dares or can because there is little delegation. Sciggles is continuing to interfere with the site. The technical staff are not communicating properly (with each other or the rest of the staff/site) or fixing problems aright and there are tensions between them and some members of the administrative staff. 

Very slow progress is being made on fixing FA's chronic security and code problems, if at all and Dragoneer is afraid or averse of pushing or upsetting Yak for fear of what he might do. Carenath has control over the forums server and is extremely reluctant to let anyone else touch it. Again, Dragoneer is averse to doing anything about it for fear of what he might do and is reasonably content as long as he is allowed access.

 Some people who may have been asked to become admins have refused, having some inking of what the situation is like, while other people who have offered their help are being ignored.

That is my speculation on some of the things which may be currently going on. Given how secretive things have generally been and are, I have to admit, I would find it hard to believe any denials that were not accompanied with a full and honest explanation of what is going on in relation to the denial.

I would be well content if none of this were true, but based on what I've seen it is what I suspect may be happening. In the absence of explanation, we can only speculate.



ThreeDawg said:


> '. Bring back, or convince past admins to  return. True, some may have been a pain in the ass, and were kicked out  for that reason. But you must admit, we need these guys more then we  know.



I don't think it'd be a good idea to chaseing down ex-admins willy-nilly, it's not rocket science. There are some who are better off pissing outside, than inside pissing over people who use the site IMO. 

Some of them left/were pushed out because they were lazy anyhow and so bringing them back would be worse than not having them.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm sure there are many more people feeling a loss of confidence in the staff(and Dragoneer's) ability to maintain furaffinity.

Someone should just buy FurAffinity from him and get the job done.


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## CerbrusNL (Jul 10, 2011)

Dio, please read what I wrote, again:





CerbrusNL said:


> But, as  I'm not sure what I can, or can not say about this "situation" *you're* describing, I'll just keep my flap shut.


I did not say there was a situation. I'm not frightened, I'd just rather  let mainsite staff explain stuff they know more about, than I do.



insane_kangaroo said:


> I'm sure there are many more people  feeling a loss of confidence in the staff(and Dragoneer's) ability to  maintain furaffinity.
> 
> Someone should just buy FurAffinity from him and get the job done.


IK, are you here to contribute to the discussion, or to stir up some drama?

Please think about that before replying to this thread, or any thread in general.



ThreeDawg said:


> '. Bring back, or convince past admins to   return. True, some may have been a pain in the ass, and were kicked out   for that reason. But you must admit, we need these guys more then we   know.


Admins that were removed from staff, have been for a reason.
You generally don't ask someone you fired, to come back.



Ben said:


> was it because of the whole "asking for pirated software" thing?


Afaik, Yup.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

Cerb,

I'm being very serious.

If Dragoneer doesn't want to spend time maintaining FurAffinity, he should pass the reins to someone who wants to improve the community. The general outlook of FA has been... "We're going to be upgrading our site!" *3 months pass... 6 months... a year....* along with the security exploits which were left unpatched for over 6 months even after brought up to attention with a proof of concept(code + howto).

Procrastinating on the issue is fracturing the online furry community. People need to get their tail in gear.


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## CerbrusNL (Jul 10, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> Cerb,
> 
> I'm being very serious.
> 
> ...


 IK, The post I quoted contained no arguments for your point, hence my reply to it. I knew what you meant, but I'd like you to elaborate on it a little more next time, like you did in this post. Thanks.


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## AshleyAshes (Jul 10, 2011)

As much as some of you like to make this into a big deal, it isn't. The admins are infact largely useless, and I don't mean this in an insulting way, I mean that 80% of the users don't care about FA's administration, the AUP, the rules, how it works or anything else. They care that FA is here and that it is currently functional. The only thing that Dragoneer needs to do is 'keep the lights on', and 80% of the users would be happy as clams, even if no other maintenance or administration was done in the site. If anything, admins are a detriment to that 80%, because the admins are a hindrance to their efforts to post photos of their dicks or their five thousand SecondLife screenshots.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 10, 2011)

IIRC Neer said he is going to try an incorporate the FAF staff into the FA staff to help handle TTs. 

Also isn't he getting like, you know, married soon? I kinda think that might have his attention and SHOULD. Why everyone feels the need to stir up shit is beyond me.


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## Diocletian (Jul 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> IIRC Neer said he is going to try an incorporate the FAF staff into the FA staff to help handle TTs.



Ok, we start to get some communication about the situation, thank you.

My thought is, is that Dragoneer _saying_ he is going to do something is one thing, him doing it is another. The 'when' of this thing would be important, especially since I imagine he might make that integration contingent on FA getting another level of staff on the mainsite, which would involve coding changes. Furthermore, it would more or less abolish the separation between mainsite and forums staff, which IIRC is supposed to be a thing, although of course new moderators could be taken on. 



> Also isn't he getting like, you know, married soon? I kinda think that might have his attention and SHOULD. Why everyone feels the need to stir up shit is beyond me.


No one has said he should focus on FA instead of and at the expense of his marriage. This is absolutely not a binary 'he must focus on his marriage and neglect FA or vice versa' situation: he can delegate and/or let someone else run FA for him. Given that FA is a community of hundreds of thousands of people; the largest furry community site there is and has been,  it would be a good thing for the furry community if he let someone else  run it for him/delegated while he focuses on the things more important to him. 

Also, I don't think it's fair to dismiss concern for the site/community as 'shit stirring'.


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

AshleyAshes said:


> As much as some of you like to make this into a big deal, it isn't. The admins are infact largely useless, and I don't mean this in an insulting way, I mean that 80% of the users don't care about FA's administration, the AUP, the rules, how it works or anything else. They care that FA is here and that it is currently functional. The only thing that Dragoneer needs to do is 'keep the lights on', and 80% of the users would be happy as clams, even if no other maintenance or administration was done in the site. If anything, admins are a detriment to that 80%, because the admins are a hindrance to their efforts to post photos of their dicks or their five thousand SecondLife screenshots.


 
I care about them and like them 
It's a shame that they bail though, whatever their reasoning is. The morons who only care that it is functional are the ones who say "WHO CARES, IT'S FREE" and "WHO CARES, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID __ IN NOTES" [when the site was hacked and notes leaked]


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## Aden (Jul 10, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> So there is a 'situation' then.
> 
> What about this 'situation' is so terrible that it absolutely must be kept secret?
> 
> Why are members of staff frightened of telling people what's going on?


 
Thanks for that chilling interview, Rick
And stay tuned for what's next on KDFA News 4, is your tap water harming your children? After this.


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## Diocletian (Jul 10, 2011)

Aden said:


> Thanks for that chilling interview, Rick
> And stay tuned for what's next on KDFA News 4, is your tap water harming your children? After this.


 
Aden, as Dinosaurdammit said, Dragoneer said he was going to make FAF staff main site to handle trouble tickets, can you give any details about the how and when of that? And whether or not there will be any quotas for staff dealing with trouble tickets too.

If you have any other information to communicate about what is going on with the recent rash of admin staff quitting, lack of replacements, the trouble tickets or the delayed UI, coding, security or whatev.  that would be grand too. 

Thank you.


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

Aden said:


> Thanks for that chilling interview, Rick
> And stay tuned for what's next on KDFA News 4, is your tap water harming your children? After this.


 No, it's something I've been noticng as well.


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## Aden (Jul 10, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> Aden, as Dinosaurdammit said, Dragoneer said he was going to make FAF staff main site to handle trouble tickets, can you give any details about the how and when of that? And whether or not there will be any quotas for staff dealing with trouble tickets too.
> 
> If you have any other information to communicate about what is going on with the recent rash of admin staff quitting, lack of replacements, the trouble tickets or the delayed UI, coding, security or whatev.  that would be grand too.
> 
> Thank you.


 
I've been distant from the community's happenings for the past couple of weeks (I pop in here a few times a day to make some stupid posts and handle some reports) due to a big remodeling project, so I am the wrong guy to ask. Not like the lesser forum staff gets much of the "inside scoop" anyway.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 10, 2011)

I honestly only know of very little and I will admit it openly. I think the integration will happen after the new update though don't quote me on that. I am on here all the time and I know NOTHING about main site happenings. I hope Neer decides to change that so that communication is better between staff and community.


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I honestly only know of very little and I will admit it openly. I think the integration will happen after the new update though don't quote me on that. I am on here all the time and I know NOTHING about main site happenings. I hope Neer decides to change that so that communication is better between staff and community.


 Well that actually explains a lot about Cerb not being able to fully explain the login errors that happened a lil while ago
I didn't know you guys knew so little about the mainsite


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 10, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Well that actually explains a lot about Cerb not being able to fully explain the login errors that happened a lil while ago
> I didn't know you guys knew so little about the mainsite


 
I only know of the main site by what leaks over here through drama that people bring. I have no contact with the admins or staff there.


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## Diocletian (Jul 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> I honestly only know of very little and I will admit it openly. I think the integration will happen after the new update though don't quote me on that. I am on here all the time and I know NOTHING about main site happenings. I hope Neer decides to change that so that communication is better between staff and community.


 
Ok, thanks for that. I find that unfortunate since I was under the impression that the forums/mainsite staff were separate so that each set of staff could focus on their area and that the forums staff were kept in the loop so they could handle most of the communication on the forums. As Clayton said, I didn't realize that information about what is going on the main site is so hard to come by.

I don't really see why the forums staff shouldn't have access to whatever communication channels (forums, IRC, etc) the admins have access to, so that they can know what is going on and communicate more effectively on the forums, can fwd. input/concerns/etc from people on the forums, can discuss things with admins and can see admins working and have input into the direction and running of the site if they have an eye to becoming a main site staff member. 



			
				Aden said:
			
		

> I've been distant from the community's happenings for the past couple of  weeks (I pop in here a few times a day to make some stupid posts and  handle some reports) due to a big remodeling project, so I am the wrong  guy to ask. Not like the lesser forum staff gets much of the "inside  scoop" anyway.



All right, again, TY for that. As previously said, not good that people are not getting information. :<

Edit:



dinosaurdammit said:


> I only know of the main site by what leaks  over here through drama that people bring. I have no contact with the  admins or staff there.


 
Gosh, that really is poor. Does the 'war room' forum still exist? IIRC that was made in 2008 specifically for all main-site and forums staff to have some central communication hub and input into things.


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 10, 2011)

We have access to IRC but that does not guarantee that other admins are on IRC at the same time you are. The problem is thats pretty much the only communication that goes on. Chatzilla is all I can use for free considering my mac and Snak cost money which I am NOT going to pay- and for some reason firefox freezes up on me so much it became a pain to use IRC. There is some info but it is harder for some of us to access. FAF and FA mods do have access to the mod IRC but again it is hard for me to use so I know nothing.

And we have access to forum section here about FA but there is almost nothing going on or it isn't updated much.


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## Fay V (Jul 10, 2011)

The only thing I really know about the mainsite admins are there are some that see the forums in a negative light. The only other info I've seen mods get is when some nasty drama goes down on main side and could leak here so sometimes, rarely, we get a heads up that someone was a dick and might be mad they were banned. 
I dunno why we know so little on this side. I could understand the new mods not having anything to do with mainside as we're still being tested, but it bothers me that a lot of the older smods get nothing.


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## Aden (Jul 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> We have access to IRC but that does not guarantee that other admins are on IRC at the same time you are. The problem is thats pretty much the only communication that goes on. Chatzilla is all I can use for free considering my mac and Snak cost money which I am NOT going to pay- and for some reason firefox freezes up on me so much it became a pain to use IRC. There is some info but it is harder for some of us to access. FAF and FA mods do have access to the mod IRC but again it is hard for me to use so I know nothing.
> 
> And we have access to forum section here about FA but there is almost nothing going on or it isn't updated much.


 
I use Colloquy on my Mac for IRC, it works well and it's free.


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## keretceres (Jul 10, 2011)

Inb4 bureaucracy >.<


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## Jashwa (Jul 10, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> What about this 'situation' is so terrible that it absolutely must be kept secret?
> 
> Why are members of staff frightened of telling people what's going on?


Although not applicable in this case, I find that this is a MAJOR issue when anything happens. All of the active people that are "lower" staff members can't comment because they're afraid of repercussions while the "higher" staff members take forever to comment, if they ever do. 

The running of FA doesn't involve state secrets and it's kind of silly how much it seems like they pretend it is. 

Almost any issue becomes an "I'm not at liberty to say; stay tuned." sort of deal when there's absolutely no reason that it has to be like that.


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## Alstor (Jul 10, 2011)

dinosaurdammit said:


> We have access to IRC but that does not guarantee that other admins are on IRC at the same time you are. The problem is thats pretty much the only communication that goes on. Chatzilla is all I can use for free considering my mac and Snak cost money which I am NOT going to pay- and for some reason firefox freezes up on me so much it became a pain to use IRC. There is some info but it is harder for some of us to access. FAF and FA mods do have access to the mod IRC but again it is hard for me to use so I know nothing.
> 
> And we have access to forum section here about FA but there is almost nothing going on or it isn't updated much.


 Mibbit is free and is browser-oriented.



Fay V said:


> The only thing I really know about the mainsite admins are there are some that see the forums in a negative light.


 Don't they have the secluded admin forums for a reason? >.>


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## dinosaurdammit (Jul 10, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> Aden, as Dinosaurdammit said, Dragoneer said he was going to make FAF staff main site to handle trouble tickets, can you give any details about the how and when of that? And whether or not there will be any quotas for staff dealing with trouble tickets too.
> 
> If you have any other information to communicate about what is going on with the recent rash of admin staff quitting, lack of replacements, the trouble tickets or the delayed UI, coding, security or whatev.  that would be grand too.
> 
> Thank you.


 
Sorry I just now saw this after looking back on a previous post- like I said I think it will happen AFTER the update but not knowing when that is I have no clue. As far as the TTs I only know that we will help out. I don't know really anything else. I just joined IRC and no one seems to be active at the moment. As soon as I find out when we will be integrated or if there will be a quota system I'll let you know. As far as I have seen I have never seen Neer in IRC and the only time I see him on the forums is when he is doing update status or if a major drama storm is inbound for faf and he tells more or less how we should handle it, though that has only happened once since I became a mod. I wish I was more helpful with your questions.


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## Accountability (Jul 10, 2011)

Ben said:


> Technically the people in the technical team count as admins too


 
The "rules" may have changed but at one point the technical team were only admins because that's the only other level other than "user" and they were told not to do the usual admin-y things.

In addition, one of the people on the technical team seems to be dead or something.


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## Trpdwarf (Jul 10, 2011)

I am going to state at least what I can comfortable say is correct. I  know that we are currently looking at taking some forum mods and making  the main side admins. As for when, I am within the understanding that it  will be happening within this month.


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## Diocletian (Jul 10, 2011)

Trpdwarf said:


> I am going to state at least what I can comfortable say is correct. I  know that we are currently looking at taking some forum mods and making  the main side admins. As for when, I am within the understanding that it  will be happening within this month.


 
So is it certain that there will be new administrators by August 1st, barring nothing extraordinary happening?

If it is a definite certainty, what I would then like to ask is, will there be an activity/trouble ticket quota for all admins?

Because the whole thing of trouble tickets piling up and then new admins being taken on to deal with them has happened before and eventually trouble tickets started piling up again. Something which would convince me that 'this time might be different' would be an activity quota.


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## Alstor (Jul 10, 2011)

Trpdwarf said:


> I am going to state at least what I can comfortable say is correct. I  know that we are currently looking at taking some forum mods and making  the main side admins. As for when, I am within the understanding that it  will be happening within this month.


 I'm guessing these will be the more senior mods like Cerb, Renard, SS3J, etc., no?


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## Trpdwarf (Jul 10, 2011)

Diocletian said:


> So is it certain that there will be new administrators by August 1st, barring nothing extraordinary happening?
> 
> If it is a definite certainty, what I would then like to ask is, will there be an activity/trouble ticket quota for all admins?
> 
> Because the whole thing of trouble tickets piling up and then new admins being taken on to deal with them has happened before and eventually trouble tickets started piling up again. Something which would convince me that 'this time might be different' would be an activity quota.



Well, I can't say for certain 100%. However I will be looking to ensure that we get those new Admins ASAP, so I will be pushing and pushing if necessary to ensure that by August we have new admins helping out with chewing away at the back log. That said I do believe it was brought up the idea of a quota and I'll re-look into it to see where that subject sits. Realistically there should be a quota for all people handling the tickets. This ensures that people don't get burned out pulling too much, and we have a better turn around time. I'd like to see more than just a quota but penalties for not keeping up with it.

I know we brought in new admins before(is one of the newer admins). The thing is, it's going to be a continuous process till we get a good solid team again.


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

Alstor said:


> I'm guessing these will be the more senior mods like Cerb, Renard, SS3J, etc., no?


 
aka three mods

sigh

in a dog game site I play [yes, a dog sim site... not a massive art site or nothing]
there are..
Site Owner: 1
Moderators: 13
Artists [also have powers]: 6
Newbie Helpers [like mods, but help out the new players and answer questions]: 10

and on fa we have like.. what.
6 admins

:\


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## Aden (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't get why _all_ forum mods aren't automatically allowed to help on the main site


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

Aden said:


> I don't get why _all_ forum mods aren't automatically allowed to help on the main site


 
STOP, No, bad Aden! Stop being logical!


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## LizardKing (Jul 10, 2011)

Aden said:


> I don't get why _all_ forum mods aren't automatically allowed to help on the main site


 
Presumably it's an issue of trust. Worse case scenario, a forum mod might delete some threads and ban people, both of which are easily reversed. On the main site, they can wipe entire galleries, along with all the stats for those submissions, and read notes. Presumably there are backups, but knowing FA it's probably a major pain in the arse to actually do anything with them, and there's certainly no way to revert all the resulting "drama", which FA is allergic to.


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## CerbrusNL (Jul 10, 2011)

Alstor said:


> I'm guessing these will be the more senior mods like Cerb, Renard, SS3J, etc., no?


You make me feel old :V



insane_kangaroo said:


> STOP, No, bad Aden! Stop being logical!


Yea, sure, hand'm mainsite power as soon as their application is accepted.

I respectfully disagree. Imo, the mod -> smod -> mainsite path is ok. Give'm some time to get used to the rest of the staff.
I'd "This" LK's post above this one, if I could.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

LK,

You know.... the places where I work contain some extremely sensitive information. I always walk in, I'm given the master keys to the place. There are logging facilities created in the IT systems to show who performed what action, if trust is an issue then FA needs such facilities to log administrative actions. From what I do know, there is a system in place, since I've seen what the FA admin screens look like to due admin's getting their passwords leaked.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

CerbrusNL said:


> Yea, sure, hand'm mainsite power as soon as their application is accepted.
> 
> I respectfully disagree. Imo, the mod -> smod -> mainsite path is ok. Give'm some time to get used to the rest of the staff.
> I'd "This" LK's post above this one, if I could.


 
Read my above reply. Create proper logging facilities, problem solved. You don't see people going all "should we give him access?" when people give me the keys to multi-state IT networks.


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## LizardKing (Jul 10, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> LK,
> 
> You know.... the places where I work contain some extremely sensitive information. I always walk in, I'm given the master keys to the place. There are logging facilities created in the IT systems to show who performed what action, if trust is an issue then FA needs such facilities to log administrative actions. From what I do know, there is a system in place, since I've seen what the FA admin screens look like to due admin's getting their passwords leaked.


 
Yes, but you are employed there. You probably signed a whole bunch of forms agreeing to all sorts of procedures and legal obligations. If you decided to delete a bunch of random stuff for shits and giggles, you don't just get to laugh about it on an Internet forum; you'd get fired and possibly arrested and prosecuted. Again, the logging isn't the issue, it's undoing the damage, and that means more than just restoring some files.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

LK,

Well yeah, I'd be prosecuted on the federal level if I did anything with ill intent.

FA's system is flawed by design. The concept of delete shouldn't exist. The concept of administrators being able to edit other user's profiles shouldn't exist either.

1) Admins should be able to hide or disable access to materials or accounts only
2) Submissions shouldn't be deletable, they should only be hidable(for legal reasons as well)

I've offered coding services,been rejected. As someone who's had plenty of experience with sensitive systems, you'd think Neer would be a little more open.


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## Jashwa (Jul 10, 2011)

I feel like it should be mod>super mod AND admin as the path, but that's just me.



insane_kangaroo said:


> I've  offered coding services,been rejected. As someone who's had plenty of  experience with sensitive systems, you'd think Neer would be a little  more open.


Can you blame him with how _opinionated  _you've been with things?


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

Being opinionated is one thing, it's not like I'd sit there and crash networks or torture individuals to whom I disagree. If I did, I'd be out of a job and in Gitmo. :3


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> LK,
> 
> Well yeah, I'd be prosecuted on the federal level if I did anything with ill intent.
> 
> ...


 ....Why in the hell shouldn't submissions be deletable?


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

Submissions should be exactly how FA notes are stored. If someone uploads unlawful material, they can't just delete the offending material, admins can forward the materials to the proper authorities.

Storing all submissions permanently would also allow admins to go back and say, "Yeah... this user was uploading works which was in direct violation of the rules."


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## Volkodav (Jul 10, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> Submissions should be exactly how FA notes are stored. If someone uploads unlawful material, they can't just delete the offending material, admins can forward the materials to the proper authorities.
> 
> Storing all submissions permanently would also allow admins to go back and say, "Yeah... this user was uploading works which was in direct violation of the rules."



This is actually a very interesting idea. So the user could store/hide deviations [like on DA] but only the admins could delete it?
That way they could clear out space on the servers of garbage submissions [ex. second life shit, photos of cars, sonic art] too


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## Trpdwarf (Jul 10, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> Presumably it's an issue of trust. Worse case scenario, a forum mod might delete some threads and ban people, both of which are easily reversed. On the main site, they can wipe entire galleries, along with all the stats for those submissions, and read notes. Presumably there are backups, but knowing FA it's probably a major pain in the arse to actually do anything with them, and there's certainly no way to revert all the resulting "drama", which FA is allergic to.


 
I agree with this but would like to also add something. Sometimes you don't know how well a person will handle power till they get a little bit of it. There needs to be some level of trust before we throw a person to the wolves over there to help out with main side issues.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

Clayton,

Pretty much. Except like notes, only a head admin would be able to delete.

All old submissions should be stored in an "archive" server anyway, just store "deleted"(hidden) submissions on such a server.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

Trpdwarf said:


> I agree with this but would like to also add something. Sometimes you don't know how well a person will handle power till they get a little bit of it. There needs to be some level of trust before we throw a person to the wolves over there to help out with main side issues.



Or have an admin watch the person's every move, probation so to speak, to make sure the admin is performing proper duties. A system should be set up anyway to 'diff' changes an admin makes so they can be reverted.


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## Tiger In A Tie (Jul 10, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> Clayton,
> 
> Pretty much. Except like notes, only a head admin would be able to delete.
> 
> All old submissions should be stored in an "archive" server anyway, just store "deleted"(hidden) submissions on such a server.



But then wouldn't those "archived" pictures on the server simply be a waste of server space? If deleted, submissions can always be re-uploaded. I feel like the server space should be used for acceptable pictures and not for storing ones that will most likely never again see the light.

Or are you referring that submissions should be handled like dA, if the uploader desires he can store the pictures so they are not visible in the gallery but are still on the site?

I could be misunderstanding you, definitely correct me if I'm wrong.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 10, 2011)

NFT,

Sure, there is a cost of hard drive space. Storing on an archive server is mainly for performance and to have permanent storage for any reason(legal or other). Such practices are common in large networks.


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## Armaetus (Jul 10, 2011)

Not much of a big loss if you ask me, I've NEVER seen him active nor responding to tickets..ever (AFAIK).

This was MY thought during the entire "Lazy Admin" thread that Arshes brought up months ago and inaction breeds inaction, further aggravating myself and other users/competent staff members.

This level of trust thing is what bothers me muchly. What is there to hide? Come on, I wouldn't be this secretive if I had 20 or so staff and 5 main admins. Jeez.


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## Accountability (Jul 10, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> Presumably it's an issue of trust. Worse case scenario, a forum mod might delete some threads and ban people, both of which are easily reversed. On the main site, they can wipe entire galleries, along with all the stats for those submissions, and read notes. Presumably there are backups, but knowing FA it's probably a major pain in the arse to actually do anything with them, and there's certainly no way to revert all the resulting "drama", which FA is allergic to.


 
This is why there needs to be a major code overhaul (i.e. completely redone, not a fresh coat of paint and things hacked in to the existing code).

Firstly, there needs to be user levels other than "admin" and "user". There needs to be moderators and admins and support staff and developers. Secondly, there needs to be a proper system in place to flag a submission or comment without filling out a trouble ticket. There needs to be a way for staff members to hide and lock flagged content instead of removing it outright, and there needs to be a way for the person who uploaded the content to appeal the removal. Moderators can't delete content, they can only hide it. Admins would process the repeals and delete things that have appeals denied. If you don't appeal, the content is automatically deleted after a set number of days.

There needs to be a huge overhaul on staff communications as well. Currently half the staff is in one IRC channel (#furaffinity-mod) while all the higher-ups are in another (#furaffinity-core). This is hardly efficient and leads to the usual "I don't know what's going on" every time something happens. They need to be consolidated. The Forum staff is seemingly kept in the dark on most matters, and where do people go when there's a problem? The Forum! This isn't the government, this isn't a huge business, this is a _furry art site_. There is no reason to keep half the staff in the dark because there might be discussion about God knows what in the sooper seekret -core clubhouse.



Nightfire Tiger said:


> But then wouldn't those "archived"  pictures on the server simply be a waste of server space?


Seeing as it's taken FA to accumulate 1.7TB of content in 6 years, and now they're installing a server six times bigger, hard drive space is hardly a concern anymore. The new server won't be full for many, many years, and will more than likely go it's entire lifetime without ever being completely full.


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## Aden (Jul 11, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> Presumably it's an issue of trust. Worse case scenario, a forum mod might delete some threads and ban people, both of which are easily reversed. On the main site, they can wipe entire galleries, along with all the stats for those submissions, and read notes. Presumably there are backups, but knowing FA it's probably a major pain in the arse to actually do anything with them, and there's certainly no way to revert all the resulting "drama", which FA is allergic to.


 
It's not like I'm suggesting we give new forum mods full mainsite admin powers as soon as they're let in here. I just think, just like there are levels of responsibility and ability on the forums (mod, smod, admin), why can't something like that be put on the mainsite? New people start out with a little bit of responsibility at both locations, the higher-ups see how they act, and promotion/demotion is dished out accordingly.

At the very least, it'll unify the staff and ease some of the burden of the very few FA admins.


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## Armaetus (Jul 11, 2011)

Communication is key to running a site efficiently guys, not this half-assed "in the dark" with some team members.


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## LizardKing (Jul 11, 2011)

Aden said:


> It's not like I'm suggesting we give new forum mods full mainsite admin powers as soon as they're let in here. I just think, just like there are levels of responsibility and ability on the forums (mod, smod, admin), why can't something like that be put on the mainsite?



For the same reason that there aren't folders, or the commission tab, or many other useful features.


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## Rossyfox (Jul 11, 2011)

Dragoneer if you are too busy with your marriage to run FA as some of the posters are suggesting, I will buy Fur Affinity from you for 100 USD.


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 11, 2011)

Rossyfox said:


> Dragoneer if you are too busy with your marriage to run FA as some of the posters are suggesting, I will buy Fur Affinity from you for 100 USD.


 
I'd buy FA for 10k and activate a Miserable User feature for your account.


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## Aden (Jul 11, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> For the same reason that there aren't folders, or the commission tab, or many other useful features.


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0QHw7iy1Rg


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## Rossyfox (Jul 11, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> I'd buy FA for 10k and activate a Miserable User feature for your account.


 
on FA itself? you'd have to code it manually

also if you bought FA you wouldn't have to code a miserable user feature as I would already be a miserable user


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## Verin Asper (Jul 11, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> I'd buy FA for 10k and activate a Miserable User feature for your account.


 and on that Day, Folks would probably jump ship to SoFurry and Inkbunny due to how you dislike being Dox'd you enjoy Doxing others. I still think you had something to do with Me and BetaWolf getting investigated


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 11, 2011)

Rossyfox said:


> on FA itself? you'd have to code it manually
> 
> also if you bought FA you wouldn't have to code a miserable user feature as I would already be a miserable user


 
I could code it in an hour, even in PHP.



Crysix Fousen said:


> and on that Day, Folks would probably jump ship to SoFurry and Inkbunny due to how you dislike being Dox'd you enjoy Doxing others. I still think you had something to do with Me and BetaWolf getting investigated



You shouldn't make such accusations unless you can back them up.


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## Ben (Jul 11, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> For the same reason that there aren't folders, or the commission tab, or many other useful features.



Not to mention Tag-filtering, a proper groups system, a text editor for written submissions, a section dedicated to streams so people's inboxes aren't flooded with streaming notifications, or the ability to choose what content you get from watched people (i.e. submissions, journals, or neither). Oh.


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## Jashwa (Jul 11, 2011)

Don't forget stories that actually display and images that display properly without going full view.


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## Xenke (Jul 11, 2011)

Ben said:


> or the ability to choose what content you get from watched people (i.e. submissions, journals, or *neither*).


 
I'm not saying that we shouldn't have this, but why would you watch someone and then set it to give you neither journals or submissions? What's the point of that other than to boost someone's numbers?


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## Ben (Jul 11, 2011)

Xenke said:


> I'm not saying that we shouldn't have this, but why would you watch someone and then set it to give you neither journals or submissions? What's the point of that other than to boost someone's numbers?


 
I'm honestly not sure, but I guess there's no reason to not have the option? It is a mystery.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 11, 2011)

insane_kangaroo said:


> You shouldn't make such accusations unless you can back them up.


 Said the person who enjoys making accusations with no backing too :V


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## insane_kangaroo (Jul 11, 2011)

Crysix Fousen said:


> Said the person who enjoys making accusations with no backing too :V



I only forward on materials which are unlawful to authorities, I take no other action regarding information.


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## Fay V (Jul 11, 2011)

If you guys wanna hash it out about Dox stuff and accusations then take it elsewhere. Keep it on topic.


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## Azure (Jul 11, 2011)

*is part of the 95% of people that don't give a shit*


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## Aden (Jul 11, 2011)

Xenke said:


> I'm not saying that we shouldn't have this, but why would you watch someone and then set it to give you neither journals or submissions? What's the point of that other than to boost someone's numbers?


 
Maybe just as a kind of bookmark or something
Make the tool as flexible as possible so the user can use it how they see fit


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## Diocletian (Jul 11, 2011)

Trpdwarf said:


> I will be pushing and pushing if necessary to ensure that by August we have new admins helping out with chewing away at the back log. That said I do believe it was brought up the idea of a quota and I'll re-look into it to see where that subject sits.


 
Right, thanks for pushing for some new admins and a quota, but would it be correct to say that if Dragoneer doesn't give his assent to new admins and a quota then it won't happen?


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## Rossyfox (Jul 12, 2011)

Azure said:


> *is part of the 95% of people that don't give a shit*


 
stop flouncing around here and get your green butt on AIM >:C

also with FA's userbase I can see how a short period of inactive administration would just make BS TTs pile up, who wants to guess that 9 out of 10 of them aren't even actionable because the TOS wasn't broken


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 12, 2011)

I stayed out of this thread because what I would say wouldn't make many happy or see it as an opportunity to use it as bickering. I'll say this:

I actually made the recommendations to forward several people up from the forums to main site since month of June. I do this through emails so it is logged and not get lost like it would be in IRC conversation.

I do continue the route during promotions to always recommend people for "prime time" on FA's site. As Trpdwarf knows and is helping push to at least get them in before August.

I'm not going to go into what the holdup is nor speculate.


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## Ben (Jul 12, 2011)

I think I'm just sort of wondering what FA forum mods would_ want_ to be promoted to mainsite admins. I'm noticing quite a bit of dissent coming out of that camp in regards to recent events, so the idea of anyone being willing to join the mainsite staff would honestly surprise me. I can understand wanting to be a forum mod because of the small community within it, but the idea of any of the current mods wanting to be mainsite admins sounds strange to me.


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## Armaetus (Jul 13, 2011)

Do you not think it is because of a lack of communication between staff and other higher up (excl. Arshes) ?


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## Foxxel (Jul 13, 2011)

And I'm gonna quote you on your title of this post.

_"Yet another Admin Quits"_

When the journal that the EX-Admin said:
_"No, I did not get fired. I stepped down. It has nothing at all to do with the crew. It is totally about me. My reasons for leaving are my own."_

Just find it funny your posting about an Admin that quit when really they stepped down maybe for personal reasons? Like, family matters maybe?
 I really don't know the answer but I do think your overreacting about FA, and it's position.

I can just recommend you just go over to DA if you don't want drama anymore.
In fact there's not that much Drama on FA at all anymore.

In any case I think you should kinda just back off of Admins for what they want to do. Not all of them go around with the Ban Hammer, banning people out of random (maybe there were a few, idk, don't want to get into an argument over that.)
But if they ban people, retract submissions, ect. It's mostly for legal reasons. If you want something changed for the site, then your going to have to make some pornography legal. And I don't think that's going to ever happen.

(Most of the things aren't about you (Except the top part), just overall people that want to look at every single detail that FA has f***ed up.)


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## Holsety (Jul 13, 2011)

DJ-Foxxel said:


> Just find it funny your posting about an Admin that quit when really they stepped down maybe for personal reasons? Like, family matters maybe?


 Stepping down and quitting are essentially the same.


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## Arshes Nei (Jul 13, 2011)

Some admins didn't do much at all, made them look good. But that's just my personal pov I suppose.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 13, 2011)

DJ-Foxxel said:


> And I'm gonna quote you on your title of this post.
> 
> _"Yet another Admin Quits"_
> 
> ...


 Whoa now...when did Stepping down wasn't the equivalent of quitting? I'm sure stepping down meaning no longer participating in said work...which also quit means. I'm also sure folks would quit their job for personal reasons too so that doesnt work "Math doesnt work that way".

Also no the only thing they remove off site for Legal reasons is currently cub porn, everything else is due violations of their own set up rules here.


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## LizardKing (Jul 13, 2011)

I think it's usually taken to mean that "stepping down" = "Yeah I can't do this right now", whereas "quitting" = "FUCK THIS SHIT, I'M OUTTA HERE". Quitting has more of a finality about it.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 13, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> I think it's usually taken to mean that "stepping down" = "Yeah I can't do this right now", whereas "quitting" = "FUCK THIS SHIT, I'M OUTTA HERE". Quitting has more of a finality about it.


 then all the admins that left just stepped down


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## Devious Bane (Jul 13, 2011)

I love how many people got rageb& for posting in this thread. Now all we can expect the rest of the website administration to do their job or "step down" as well. Or we can pretend this only adds to FA's many problems and will end up on FA's ED article by Thursday.


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## Accountability (Jul 13, 2011)

DJ-Foxxel said:


> Just find it funny your posting about an Admin that quit when really they stepped down maybe for personal reasons? Like, family matters maybe?
> I really don't know the answer but I do think your overreacting about FA, and it's position.



The past has proven this to be wrong. Several admins who "resigned" and cited "personal reasons" were later found to be covering up drama, one even saying once that Dragoneer asked that the reason be made to look even more personal.

Not saying that there's some coverup here, just that it's happened in the past and of course there are people who will wonder if this resignation or any future resignation is a coverup for something.


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## Volkodav (Jul 13, 2011)

Devious Bane said:


> I love how many people got rageb& for posting in this thread.


Yeah I didn't like this either. Wtf is going on?


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## Ben (Jul 14, 2011)

Oh, no Browder. Browder.

I'm so sorry.


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## Browder (Jul 14, 2011)

Ben said:


> Oh, no Browder. Browder.
> 
> I'm so sorry.


 I haven't died you know. 

And since the cat is effectively out of the bag, my new name color should tell you that suspicions of mods refusing admin positions were obviously very much unsubstantiated.


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## Verin Asper (Jul 14, 2011)

Browder said:


> I haven't died you know.
> 
> And since the cat is effectively out of the bag, my new name color should tell you that suspicions of mods refusing admin positions were obviously very much unsubstantiated.


 enjoy being auto hated and believed to be abusing ya powers :V
but really grats


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## Ben (Jul 14, 2011)

Browder said:


> I haven't died you know.
> 
> And since the cat is effectively out of the bag, my new name color should tell you that suspicions of mods refusing admin positions were obviously very much unsubstantiated.


 
It wasn't really so much that as "Come on guys, I know you're smarter than this." Although I don't really mean to say you're stupid, as your heart is in the right place; you just want to help a community that you care about. But honestly, the major problem with Furaffinity has never really been the rate at which trouble tickets are answered. It's a problem, but as long as the major, overarching problem of who's in power remains unsolved, it's all frankly irrelevant. But hey, at least they chose one of the most competent candidates for the job, so take that how you will.


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## ANGRY OFFENSIVE PERSON (Jul 14, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Yeah I didn't like this either. Wtf is going on?


 Quick question, I don't mean to get involved too much, but why are people like Rossy and Dio being booted when IK is still allowed to shit inflammatory babble out of his ass and all over this thread?


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## Volkodav (Jul 14, 2011)

ANGRY OFFENSIVE PERSON said:


> Quick question, I don't mean to get involved too much, but why are people like Rossy and Dio being booted when IK is still allowed to shit inflammatory babble out of his ass and all over this thread?


 
Dio was banned?
& you don't know if IK got any infractions or not


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## ANGRY OFFENSIVE PERSON (Jul 14, 2011)

Clayton said:


> Dio was banned?
> & you don't know if IK got any infractions or not


I don't know if he did, true. But I do know he's been going at it for a while longer than a bunch of people here who get banned for bickering and irrelevancies, yet he's still around.
& check the OP


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## Volkodav (Jul 14, 2011)

ANGRY OFFENSIVE PERSON said:


> I don't know if he did, true. But I do know he's been going at it for a while longer than a bunch of people here who get banned for bickering and irrelevancies, yet he's still around.
> & check the OP


OH
*DIO*cletian. I thought you meant *DEO* as in the Tasmanian Devil girl.

Yeah I've noticed it. I don't know why the select... 4 users got banned within 1 night.


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## Draconas (Jul 14, 2011)

Yeah... I see no reason a handful of users got banned, from what I saw is that they were saying shit that the mods would probably hate, but were within guidelines of the TOS, makes me think of how "I'll do whatever the fuck I want" some people with power will do on here.


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## LizardKing (Jul 14, 2011)

Ben said:


> But hey, at least they chose one of the most competent candidates for the job, so take that how you will.


 
But then they chose Cerb as well so


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## CerbrusNL (Jul 14, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> But then they chose Cerb as well so


Oi!

Suspension! :V


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## Cyanide_tiger (Jul 14, 2011)

Going over this thread, as well as a few others that I've seen in the past, I've spotted a few main problems that can be fixed easily. While they've been brought for the most part, I'd like to add my own bit of input to them.

I've noticed a distinct lack of communication between staff, both on the mainsite and the forums and I agree that there needs to be some consolidated means where all of the staff can and will communicate with each other. 

This leads me to my next concern, transparency and general public relations. Is it really that hard to see some of these shitstorms brewing? At the moment, the there is such a lack of transparency with what the staff is doing(again, both mainsite and forums) that it is nearly an opaque wall. With the consolidation of better communication between all of the staff, there needs to be some sort of preventive measures discussion happening as well. A good example would be the very case this thread was made about - the admin stepping down. There should have been a clear message of "I'm going to step down for X reason. Feel free to give the users that question Y amount of information," or if that wasn't provided by the admin in question, some plan of what to tell us when we come questioning about it. With the amount of users on both the mainsite and the forums, do any of you honestly believe that no one will notice it and ask questions? Transparency and public relations is a delicate balance to maintain, but not very hard to at least appear as if you're _trying. _Another example seems to have happened in this very thread. Those users that were banned, the staff's default answer is "you can't see the infractions they've had; we know why they were banned." Come on? Really? Yes, it is plausible that something could have happened outside this thread that got them banned for other reasons, but is it really rocket science to see how it appears to everyone else, especially when there isn't a satisfactory answer to be given? Especially when there is a shaky trust(and I'm being generous there) between quite a number of users and the staff?

I've noticed a distinct lack of tact or grace from some staff members when regarding trouble on the forums or mainsite - whether with troubletickets, infractions, technical issues, or anything else. "Lead by example" should have a heavier emphasis here than it does. I've witnessed more than one staff member blatantly belittle users. I'm not saying sometimes they don't deserve it(though a lot less of this lately) - but if the staff doesn't uphold the semblance of non-hostility they attempt to enforce, how can the users be expected to follow it?

Going back to my point though, there needs to be a better articulated and better prepared release of information when users come questioning.

Speaking of communication and transparency though, the now-former admin which spurred the creation of this thread, as well as another who was linked earlier, I had never been even remotely aware of. Might I suggest a posted list somewhere of who is on the staff and over what? And if such a thing already exists, perhaps making it more obvious and easier to find? Because I, for one, have yet to stumble across anything resembling a list of staff members for either the forums or the mainsite.

For the sake of saying something a bit more on-topic: I agree that we need to know more about what is happening, what is going to happen, and when it is going to happen. Not just here on the forums, but the mainsite as well.


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## Draconas (Jul 14, 2011)

Cyanide_tiger said:


> -wall of text that sounded nice-
> 
> Might I suggest a posted list somewhere of who is on the staff and over what? And if such a thing already exists, perhaps making it more obvious and easier to find? Because I, for one, have yet to stumble across anything resembling a list of staff members for either the forums or the mainsite.
> 
> - more text-.


 
http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/


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## Cyanide_tiger (Jul 14, 2011)

Draconas said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/



Ah, thanks for that.


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## Aden (Jul 14, 2011)

Draconas said:


> http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/


 
Since that doesn't seem to be updated with the new people, there's always http://forums.furaffinity.net/showgroups.php


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## Draconas (Jul 14, 2011)

Aden said:


> Since that doesn't seem to be updated with the new people, there's always http://forums.furaffinity.net/showgroups.php


 
That works too.


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## CerbrusNL (Jul 14, 2011)

Aden said:


> Since that doesn't seem to be updated with the new people, there's always http://forums.furaffinity.net/showgroups.php


 That one has to be updated manually, which will happen later in the week.


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## Volkodav (Jul 14, 2011)

Aden said:


> Since that doesn't seem to be updated with the new people, there's always http://forums.furaffinity.net/showgroups.php


 I don't understand why that list isn't BAM right there in the open. It sucks when you gotta contact an admin but can't find a list and none of them are around :\


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## Jashwa (Jul 14, 2011)

Aden said:


> Since that doesn't seem to be updated with the new people, there's always http://forums.furaffinity.net/showgroups.php


 I love how the "Moderators" group is on there twice.


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## Aden (Jul 14, 2011)

Jashwa said:


> I love how the "Moderators" group is on there twice.


 
We just want them to feel special c:


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## NommingShark (Jul 14, 2011)

Who do I have to contact to get trouble tickets taken care of. I have 4 of 5 left and two of them are against one individual who I will not name. One was taken care but why not the rest of them? The person was right there.


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## Aden (Jul 14, 2011)

NommingShark said:


> Who do I have to contact to get trouble tickets taken care of. I have 4 of 5 left and two of them are against one individual who I will not name. One was taken care but why not the rest of them? The person was right there.


 
When did you file these tickets?


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## NommingShark (Jul 15, 2011)

Aden said:


> When did you file these tickets?


 
Lets see.

06.20.11 
07.08.11 					
07.11.11 
07.14.11 					
07.14.11 

(and one on the same day as the last two was taken care of)


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## Summercat (Jul 15, 2011)

NommingShark said:


> Lets see.
> 
> 06.20.11
> 07.08.11
> ...


 
Just a note, we can't sort by user. We can only sort by date submitted and activity. 

If these are harassment tickets, send me a note on Furaffinity with a link to your tickets.


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## Devious Bane (Jul 15, 2011)

Generally, you can expect a 3month+ delay for any ticket since I'm assuming the sorting method for tickets shows the newest first and the oldest last. Depending on when you submit the ticket will decide if it's seen quicker or after X amount of time after X amount of "newer" tickets have been dealt with.


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## Xenke (Jul 15, 2011)

I've had 5 tickets answered in the past two days.

I'm feeling lucky.


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