# This is becoming embarrassing, furs need to start standing up again.



## EternalUndeath (Jan 23, 2007)

Very recently, I started a research paper on the various steryotypes being applied to the furry fandom and how most of them are false (i.e., we are _not_ all perverts and child molesters) and that the heart and meaning of being a "furry" is just a form of art appreciation, like being fond of cubism or surrealism or something. My professor immediately told me that if I submited any such thing, it would result in an instant failure, and on the way out of the room I was called a "perv" and a "freak" among other things (which can't be written here).
 I admitt it may have been fairly stupid to announce a research paper on such a personal topic, but the fact that several of my "friends" now avoid me like the plague is disgraceful not only to me, but to every self-respecting furry alive. The fandom's name, while improved slightly by the BurnedFur movement, is still mud with the general populous. This needs to be addressed *NOW*!
 I am calling for nothing less than a revival of the Burned Furs! If you are interested in the movement, their original website can still be found here. Please feel free to E-Mail me at my gmail address with your personal burn story, I'm making a website for BurnedFurRevived soon, and would love to be able to post your stories (anonymously, of course).
 Please, help me speak out [size=x-large]today[/size].
(also, please don't flame this thread, I've had enough flaming in real life already)


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## WelcomeTheCollapse (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm in.

A few snippets from the site that I found that I agree with:

"_The Burned Fur positionisthat Furry fandom isn't about sexuality of any form.Â Â The fandom may contain erotic material, but NO form of sexuality, gay, lesbian, bisexual,or whatever, is the focus of the fandom._"
So yes, we can have our porn, but it's not why we're here. It's not like "What? Why, they want to take teh pr0nz! Savages."

"_'...homosexuality?' 
Again, for some reason this seems to be a common misconception about the Burned Fur movement. We don't know who you've been talking to, but we're not homophobes.Â Â Neither homosexuality nor bisexuality is an issue with us, and is NOT an aspect of Burned Fur, and gay-bashers aren't welcomed under our banner._"

"_'...plushophilia?'
Plushophilia (the act of sexual gratification using a stuffed animal as a tool) is a kink, pure and simple. Aside from the fact that some furry fans collect stuffed animals,it has nothing whatsoever to do with Furry fandom._"

"_'...bestiality?'
This is the one area that we are not going to be wishy-washy about.

Bestiality, also known by its politically correct cousin term, "zoophilia", is nothing more, and nothing less than DIRECT PHYSICAL ASSAULT ON A NON-SAPIENT ANIMAL.Â Â It is cruel to the animal (most animals on the receiving end of such torture have to be destroyed), illegal in most parts of the civilized world, and considered morally repugnant by most of the world's recognized belief systems.Â Â Aside from the tertiary connection with animals, bestiality has nothing to do with Furryfandom, and anyone telling you otherwise is desperately looking for acceptance in a world that is repelled by their aberrant behavior._"

"_'Are you an anti-Furry fandom group?'
No.Â Â Unlike certain splinter factions that have expressed their hatred of Furry fandom and their desire not to associate with it any way except for the sake of criticism, Burned Fur is a pro-Furry fandom movement.Â Â The majority of our membership play an active part in promoting and supporting the fandom.Â Â We would rather stand up and fight for what's right than leave the fandom to those who don't care or are bent on squelching any form of fannish dissent._"


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## dave hyena (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm sorry you got called names, that shouldn't happen at university level.  Perhaps you can report the people who called you names? I'm sure all universites have some kind of rules against that kind of thing.

On the subject of the burned furs themselves, all that they produced was a lot of pointless arguing on alt.fan.furry and the now defunct Yerf newsgroups (although it was a few years before I paid any attention to furry fandom) and much hurt feelings. They also, ironically enough, drew far more attention to the adult elements than would otherwise have been warrented, simply because they were making a lot of noise about them. 

On the subject of what you are suggesting, 'tis naught but a waste of time methinks.

Because of the nature of furry, no one can make it into how they think it *should* be. One can only deal with it _as it is._

The best thing to do is to focus on what *you* enjoy about anthromorphic animals & furry fandom and to go and do that.

There *will* be bad things and all', just like there is with any fandom, but there is sometimes too much focus on that I think.

Let us instead be swift to say that "By golly, lots of people are being creative and sharing things and doing stuff they enjoy! what a jolly good idea".

Positive thoughts and positive deeds for a virtous cycle of positiveness.

So what if people bash or the media plays the "freaks and geeks" line? or furry has a "bad reputation"? You know what you like and you do what you like and people who whine and complain can go away.


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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

The more furries whine and gripe about how 'fursecuted' they are, the more they are going to get made fun of.
People are always going to have ideas and notions about certain things.  But the thing is, if you could just keep your hobbies that people think are weird to yourself, then those people will have nothing to tease you about.  If they find out somehow, you just shrug it off and say "I like the drawings" or something along those lines, and leave it at that. If you start crying about how you're not a freak and how you don't rape kids...they're going to think you're a freak.
I like anime. But you know what? I don't go up to every person I meet on the street and start talking about how I'm not a pedophile, and how I don't enjoy dressing up in anime costumes, and oh, man, giant robots are so cool, and I'm so misunderstood!  If I want to talk anime, I wait until I'm around people that I know like it.  You know why? Anime is a fringe interest. Just like furry.
You guys act like this is some sexuality or mental disorder that was forced on you. It wasn't. You weren't born a furry. This was a choice. Furry is a HOBBY.
You don't want people thinking you're a freak because you like furry? Then stop announcing it to the whole world!


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## Get-dancing (Jan 23, 2007)

Well gee, the only way they could find out you are a furry and dis you for it is because YOU FUCKING TOLD THEM!


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## blueroo (Jan 23, 2007)

I'd like to point out that it's far easier to find friends who accept you for who they are than to try and change the behavior and opinions of an entire population. In the end, if you spend effort finding good friends then you'll win. If you spend effort trying to change the world, you'll eventually find yourself an old angry man tilting at windmills.


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## ADF (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't want to get involved in drama so I'll root for you on the sidelines; though I will have to do it quietly, apparently due to the nature of what the furry fandom is based on we are not allowed to stand up for ourselves... ever.

Or at least this is what I am told.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 23, 2007)

Considering being furry is a choice I really don't have much sympathy. Sorry, it's just that people try to equate it to real hatred and bigotry for things that aren't a choice, like a skin color, or gender.


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## dave hyena (Jan 23, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> apparently due to the nature of what the furry fandom is based on we are not allowed to stand up for ourselves... ever.
> 
> Or at least this is what I am told.



That's a straw man. 

You're talking about "standing up for yourself", but in this case, standing up for oneself would be trying to take some action against the name callers, *not* doing a don quixote.

What I actually said was that to the nature of furry fandom, one cannot change it.

And you will find that to be true I reckon, the burned furs already had their go and they could not change furry fandom (or the conglomeration of interests and people that make up what is called furry fandom). 

Furry fandom is not something that can be changed by starting up a group, simply because it is in the end, a roof for a large number of people all with diverse and different interests.


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## Stillman (Jan 23, 2007)

Devil's Advocate time!  Yay!

Like it or not, the population as a whole is judged by the actions of the loudest, the most unusual, and the most offensive.  It may well be that you yourself have _no_ interest in the sexual side of the furry fandom, but even so that's more what people see of it than anything else.  To this end, sexuality is a HUGE part of furry for anyone outside looking in; regrettably the most common thread in such a huge and varied interest base _is_ pornography, and most people are unable or unwilling to look any further than that.

For example, I've had people judge me as a Christian based on the actions of extremists and evangalists, horrible people like Fred Phelps and others.  Do I hate homosexuality, America, Canada, Sweden, and other religions?  No, I don't.  Far from it.  But since the loudest, clearest message being sent by the "Christian" group is one of intolerance and bigotry, I am invariably associated with it.

I'm not trying to throw you off of anything, I'm just putting up what I believe to be valid points based off my own experience.  Subdivisions within a group rarely mean anything to someone outside a group; genuinely good and well-meaning individuals will without fail be lumped in with the sexual and social deviants.


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## Larathen (Jan 23, 2007)

People knew of my mannerisms with this fandom and they were fine with it.

Which suprised me cause Im in Jersey.

Its basically how you approach. All I said was I did the artstuffs.


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## ADF (Jan 23, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> [snip]


You know what I mean  I'm of course referring to the discussion that went on in the embarrassed to be furry thread.

I don't think one group can rise up a 'fix' all the things people think are wrong with the fandom, all burned fur really did was point out the stuff furries would rather stay hidden and shine a spotlight on it. So all we can do is deny all the things we are accused of and hope for the best. But there are people who think we shouldn't even do that, makes me wonder what people think we should do other than just stay quite and take the onslaught.


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## kyubi_youma (Jan 23, 2007)

i personally have never been out casted for such things maybe its because i can help people understand things easier than most anyways i had my fair share of "teasing" and "bullying" throughout my school years but through high school i never really had a problem with it i voiced my opinions gained respect from the fellow students and didn't take crap from anyone  most everyone knew i wouldn't fight them and most everyone knew they wouldn't be able to get a rise out of me... for gosh sake i wore a tail for a whole year of high school.. at first people where like "who's that kid with the tail"(i was elusive... ) and once people got used to it they just accepted it i guess...the next year when i stopped wearing it everyone wanted to know why i wasn't wearing it anymore....... it had become a part of me (to them at least) .....anyways your friends will most likely come back when they realize it doesnt change who you are on the inside....id say about two to three weeks.......


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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> Dave Hyena said:
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You just ignore them. My friends tease me about drawing furry. I laugh it off. I know that I just don't show those people my furry drawings, or at the very least, give them a warning that "it has animal ears and a tail"
I've seen on various forums where furries try and defend the fandom by saying it's not all perversion and weirdness.  It basically was like taking a big can of gasoline and spraying it over a fire. It made it worse, not better.
Like I said before, it's a hobby.  Why does it matter so much that some people think that there are a large percentage of freaks involved in said hobby?  Unless you're secretly involved in the stranger perversions of the fandom, I see no reason why it should bother you that much.


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## Epsereth (Jan 23, 2007)

Unfortunately, I think most of these people are right. Gotta keep furry talk amongst other people interested in it, just like any other hobby or passion. I'm huge into metal and RPGs, for example, but I keep talk of metal and RPGs limited to people interested in the same things. Otherwise it's just pointless and annoys the people you're talking to. Sure, furry might be more than a hobby to you, but even if it's a passion you can't expect it to be acceptable conversation in any situation. Yeah, it has a bad reputation in the eyes of many, but ah well. You know certain things aren't applicable to you, and if a friend is a good friend they'll see this. 

^_^ Don't stress about it. The bad eggs are always gonna be the ones getting the most attention, so just don't associate with them. Enjoy being furry. Be a good example.


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## ADF (Jan 23, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> [snip]



I know ignoring them is the best option most of the time, but not always.

It is like the advice teachers/parents give children when dealing with bullies, sure it looks good on paper but the children know it doesn't work that way. As I said elsewhere sometimes ignoring them can lead to even more extreme attempts to acquire your attention.

What happens when they take a active role in your persecution? Take for instance the late Furry4Jesus who would vandalise furry artists images and then post their hate mail? Or portal of evil who like to make the owners of targeted sites Internet life a hell? Granted nothing can be done about such incidents but I imagine it can be very difficult to ignore them once you have been targeted.

But what am I saying, I personally have never been harassed for being furry  I'm just posting my thoughts on it.


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## dave hyena (Jan 23, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> You know what I mean  I'm of course referring to the discussion that went on in the embarrassed to be furry thread.
> ...
> But there are people who think we shouldn't even do that, makes me wonder what people think we should do other than just stay quite and take the onslaught.



Oh right, sorry,  I just skipped through the thread really.

I do think one needs to be careful with the saying of things like "I am a furry!" and all that. However, I don't think there is any "onslaught" on furry fandom. 



> Or portal of evil who like to make the owners of targeted sites Internet life a hell? Granted nothing can be done about such incidents but I image it can be very difficult to ignore them once you have been targeted.



I imagine that it can be very hard to ignore that kind of thing, But the portal of evil for example, has a prime directive that people should not under any circumstances try and contact the person whose website is being examined.

However, a lot of people have turned up there and started posting on their forum and then get a kicking. But no one forced them to turn up to portal of evil or to look at it. 

They have played their own part in making their life a "hell". (and if people making fun of you on a website designed to make fun of people can make your life a hell, well...)

In such cases, you cannot stand up for yourself, the only thing you can do is to ignore it. And since this is the internet that is quite easy. You just don't type in the URL and instead go and look at things you like. 

Like nuclear war, the only way to win the game is not to play.


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## ADF (Jan 23, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> [snip]


Yeah, but I am going to have to call human nature on that 

It makes logical sense to just not look at what they are saying about you; but people will anyway. Then after reading a few paragraphs of ridicule in a adrenaline fuel rage they will say something, either there or on their website, and then the drama will begin.


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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

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So they make fun of your drawings. On the Internet. So WHAT?  It's THE INTERNET. It does not affect your real life.  It doesn't count as persecution.  I would feel sympathetic if everyday someone came into your job and threw your coffee on the ground, started to punch you, and then announced to all your co-workers that you were a dirty fursuit diaper wearing baby touching perv. That is a problem that is affecting your real life. Internet mockery? Not persecution.
As for PoE, they have a Prime Directive stating that they are not to have any contact with the featured site owners outside of the PoE forums. Meaning they are not allowed to e-mail them, sign their guestbooks, post on their forums, nothing. They can mock them all they like on the PoE forums, and if the site owner themselves shows up on the PoE forums, they will most definitely get flamed to oblivion. But if they leave the PoE forums, they get left alone.  I think PoE has a very fair rule, and for the most part, it works very well.
Sorry, but I will never view Internet mockery as persecution, and most people will agree with me. Which is why when a furry starts whining about all the 'fursecution' they have to deal with online, people are going to point a finger and make fun.


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## dave hyena (Jan 23, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I will never view Internet mockery as persecution, and most people will agree with me. Which is why when a furry starts whining about all the 'fursecution' they have to deal with online, people are going to point a finger and make fun.



One does have to be careful though and I don't think such things should be encouraged since I distinctly remember seeing a thread on something awful where some people started doing things like finding out the real life adress and workplace and telephone number of someone and someone was trying to contact their workplace.


Recently there was an incident (though not on something awful) where someone was phoned up in real life as a result of internet mockery, that sort of thing really does cross the line and starts to become worrying.


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## Rot-Fuchs (Jan 23, 2007)

really i agree that its wrong to be persecuted simply for your ideals... it contradicts the basis of the constitution (at least the american one i dont know about other contries) how can one be happy and free if they are so persecuted by their peers? but theres nothing anyone can do about it... thats the unfortunate truth of the matter... you cant fix ignorance... its just how it goes...


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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

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Oh, I definitely agree. I think when the mocking crosses over from the Internet over into real life, then it's become a problem.  Posting peoples real addresses, names, phone numbers, etc, online is a big no no.  And phoning someone's workplace to make fun of them over things online? Are these people mental? That's a persons job, and they rely on that to make a living.
Just like I think that people should ignore Internet mockery, I also think that the people mocking online need to realize that there is a line between Internet and real life. You do not bring the online mocking into a persons real life, because when someone is phoning your home, or your work to make fun, it's not easy to avoid it.
This is why I said to ADF that I would feel bad for a person if someone started to show up at their work and started smashing things on their desk and berating them because they found out online that the person likes furry.  But my sympathy is going to be quite minimal if it's just someone calling names over the Internet.


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## Rhainor (Jan 23, 2007)

Rot-Fuchs said:
			
		

> ...you cant fix ignorance...



Or, to quote Ron White, "You can't fix stupid".


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## Hanazawa (Jan 23, 2007)

My commentary can be summed up with "burned furs lol".

Many of the most outspoken members of the former Burned Furs have left the fandom by now. If it bugs you that much, don't associate with it. Be fond of anthropomorphics, not "furries". Anthros have a place in art history as allegorical symbols. Furries have a place in pop culture as sexual deviants. This is how it is.


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## sasaki (Jan 23, 2007)

> furs need to start standing up again.



But they're so much better on all fours.


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## sasaki (Jan 23, 2007)

In all seriousness, just let people think what they want. It's not like anyone can prove that you're involved in any of the stereotypical actions and behaviors that you *don't* do. You made a choice to be furry, just as myself not being a furry, I choose to interact with the community and post related art. I'm still associated with the furry community. Take it as it is and let people that know you on a personal level understand that you aren't what people outside the community see it as.

Make friends, have a good time with people that except you, and to hell with the opinions of people who don't know you.


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## R5K (Jan 23, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> [...]People are always going to have ideas and notions about certain things.  But the thing is, if you could just keep your hobbies that people think are weird to yourself, then those people will have nothing to tease you about.  If they find out somehow, you just shrug it off and say "I like the drawings" or something along those lines, and leave it at that. If you start crying about how you're not a freak and how you don't rape kids...they're going to think you're a freak.
> [...]
> You guys act like this is some sexuality or mental disorder that was forced on you. It wasn't.
> [...]


QFT. (In the following: "you" = OP.) Same goes for political and ideological views, religion and faith - it's a sign of objectivity and professionalism to not let everyone know about everything (or better: let them know if it's okay, but don't force knowledge onto those who clearly don't want to know). If a trekkie announces in front of all of his coworkers that he can speak klingon fluently, most people would be annoyed (except you work somewhere where nerdiness is accepted or even wanted).

I suspect you would not go into a mosque to preach christian gospels or perform pagan blots, and you wouldn't go to any sacred place of a faith different than yours (of course only if you have one) to tell everyone around what faith you follow.

Always keep a healthy portion of paranoia with you 

But I speculate... and I think I'm not the only one. One step back: How did the peeps know you're into the fandom?


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## SageHusky (Jan 23, 2007)

"It is better to stay silent and have people think you are an idiot, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Sure people are starting to know me RL as being a furry. do I care? yeah a little, some friends crack jokes about it but people know my outtake on what being a furry is. Heh, even a few people are calling me Sage, joking or not they still acknowledging my second personality of a canine. Sometimes it bothers me but I don't just run around screaming "i'm a furry i'm a furry!" I just tell people how it is, so far no reprocussions have come of it.

I just want to find people like me RL to associate with.


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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

R5K said:
			
		

> But I speculate... and I think I'm not the only one. One step back: How did the peeps know you're into the fandom?



He announced it to the class when he said he was going to write a paper about the unfair ideas people have about furries.

I'm starting to become more and more convinced that people need to start gaining more of a sense of shame, and to know that there are some things you keep to yourself, some things you let people you are close to know, and some things that it's okay to let anyone know. But people nowadays have this idea that they should be free to tell everybody everything about themselves, no matter how crazy it might be.


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## wut (Jan 23, 2007)

> This is becoming embarrassing, furs need to start standing up again.



No, furs just need to learn to shut their mouths about it. You are a prime example.

Some things simply belong behind closed doors.


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## Rostam The Grey (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm curious to know what class this was and if, perhaps, the paper was inappropriate for the assignment. If it was perfectly appropriate I'd take the matter to the dean. It doesn't make sense that you would be given an assignment to research something and then told you can't research what you want to. The only issue I can see is the issue of explicit material.


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## Melo (Jan 23, 2007)

I wish people would stop denying the furry fandom and its involvement with pornography. It _is_ heavily involved with pornography. Simply go the FA, then browse with your filters turned off. You're only being naive if you're going to sit back and deny the fact that there is a _lot_ of pornography. How many members here don't willingly look at furry pornography?  

When your hobby or lifestyle is synonymous with a trait, that becomes your stereotype. Go to pounced and browse the personals. Most are either bi or gay. There is a reason "furfag" is so popular of a derogatory term. 

Despite how obvious some of this stuff is, why do so many people attempt to disprove it? I don't get it. If you truly feel it's not reflecting what you believe, then don't associate yourself with it.


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## thegreathamster (Jan 23, 2007)

You know, I too, am sick of being treated like sh*t because of what other sick furries have done (and is still doing). But this was totally your fault. You came and told everyone that you were a furry as if being furry was so damn important to tell like announcing you were gay. You could have told your professor in private and I HIGHLY doubt he will tell anyone (unless he is a loud mouth jerk like my last teacher >_< ). Being a furry is nothing to be neither proud of nor ashamed of. Like the saying goes, "Leave your fursona in the computer and leave your computer often."

And if your "friends" started avoiding you then they weren't your friends in the first place. REAL FRIENDS will stay by your side and even defend you from anti-fur f***tards at your school or university. They were posers. Fakers. Get new friends.


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## Rostam The Grey (Jan 23, 2007)

thegreathamster said:
			
		

> You know, I too, am sick of being treated like sh*t because of what other sick furries have done (and is still doing). But this was totally your fault. You came and told everyone that you were a furry as if being furry was so damn important to tell like announcing you were gay. You could have told your professor in private and I HIGHLY doubt he will tell anyone (unless he is a loud mouth jerk like my last teacher >_< ). Being a furry is nothing to be neither proud of nor ashamed of. Like the saying goes, "Leave your fursona in the computer and leave your computer often."
> 
> And if your "friends" started avoiding you then they weren't your friends in the first place. REAL FRIENDS will stay by your side and even defend you from anti-fur f***tards at your school or university. They were posers. Fakers. Get new friends.



That's right! Real friends watch Pr0n with you!


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## thegreathamster (Jan 23, 2007)

Rostam The Grey said:
			
		

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Lol.


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## SageHusky (Jan 23, 2007)

lol that is right! your friends will watch pron with you and...well if you're REALLY good friends probably laugh harder! and then go to the bar and get some drinks


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## verix (Jan 23, 2007)

Oh christ, not this again.


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## ADF (Jan 23, 2007)

On a side note it is kind of sad that furry has to be locked behind doors and kept on the Internet because of its current image; I mean what harm is someone with a clean furry drawing on their T-shirt or a cloth tail doing? (note that I am not completely oblivious to social acceptability, I know the norms see it as weird.)

Yet social groups that are violent, law defying, destructive and see having a ASBO as a badge of pride such as the yob culture here in the UK are tolerated. A skin head hoodie purposely sitting over all 4 seats on the train or a swarm of skantly dressed teenage girls trying to get people to buy booze for them is ignored, that is just kids these days. But if you are furry by god! Something is wrong with you.

I imagine this is why some people tend to have difficulty keeping their furriness inside; even the stereotypical social outcasts form groups, humans are social animals so it is natural to seek out those similar to themselves. The other social groups can make as big of idiots out of themselves as they want and still be tolerated, while as demonstrated here furry is encouraged to stay hidden because of its reputation.

I suppose that is why they have cons and meets so people can get the open aspect out of their system, but not everyone is lucky enough to have a con in their area. I suppose I am lucky in that I wasn't mocked by my friends for liking furry stuff. Even the little social group I had in school was tolerant, in fact some of them were actually interested. But of course I keep my expression of my interests to just mentioning it every now and then, I'm not flaunting it everywhere, sometimes knowing the tolerable limits can help in acceptance.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 23, 2007)

verix said:
			
		

> Oh christ, not this again.



/me inserts the John and Ken "horror and shock" soundbyte with T-Ray's "EWWWWWWW"


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## InvaderPichu (Jan 23, 2007)




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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> On a side note it is kind of sad that furry has to be locked behind doors and kept on the Internet because of its current image; I mean what harm is someone with a clean furry drawing on their T-shirt or a cloth tail doing? (note that I am not completely oblivious to social acceptability, I know the norms see it as weird.)
> 
> Yet social groups that are violent, law defying, destructive and see having a ASBO as a badge of pride such as the yob culture here in the UK are tolerated. A skin head hoodie purposely sitting over all 4 seats on the train or a swarm of skantly dressed teenage girls trying to get people to buy booze for them is ignored, that is just kids these days. But if you are furry by god! Something is wrong with you.
> 
> ...




See, the key is to know how much is too much.  When I see people on the bus who are scantily clad, wearing big pants around their ankles with gangsta hoodies, or wearing Naruto headbands, or wearing a tail, it makes me feel uncomfortable, and I'm sure others feel the same.  People need to learn that there are certain things that just aren't acceptable to go showing off in public. Like I said before, people need to develop a nice healthy sense of shame.
However, I do think it's okay to doodle clean furry art in a sketchbook while you're out, or to discreetly read a comic book, or something along those lines. They are quiet, and aren't big attention grabbers like wearing an anime costume, or wearing your new tail and ears.
I think maybe all along that's been my problem is people who feel the need to make big, grand announcements about whatever fringe interest they're involved in, when it's really very unnecessary.


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## roxy (Jan 23, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> You guys act like this is some sexuality or mental disorder that was forced on you. It wasn't. You weren't born a furry. This was a choice. Furry is a HOBBY.
> You don't want people thinking you're a freak because you like furry? Then stop announcing it to the whole world!



Couldn't have said it any better. We live in a society where everyone is entitled to do their own thing within the limits of the law. No where is there a guarentee that you will be socially accepted no matter what you do. If you choose a hobby or interest that is viewed by the general public as not normal and feel the need to put it in their face as well, be prepared to take some flack. Common sense will keep your feelings from getting hurt.


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## thegreathamster (Jan 23, 2007)

InvaderPichu said:
			
		

>



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Surgat (Jan 23, 2007)

InvaderPichu said:
			
		

>



Why the hell didn't _I_ think of this? D:


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## Turbine_Divinity (Jan 23, 2007)

> See, the key is to know how much is too much.  When I see people on the bus who are scantily clad, wearing big pants around their ankles with gangsta hoodies, or wearing Naruto headbands, or wearing a tail, it makes me feel uncomfortable, and I'm sure others feel the same.  People need to learn that there are certain things that just aren't acceptable to go showing off in public. Like I said before, people need to develop a nice healthy sense of shame.
> However, I do think it's okay to doodle clean furry art in a sketchbook while you're out, or to discreetly read a comic book, or something along those lines. They are quiet, and aren't big attention grabbers like wearing an anime costume, or wearing your new tail and ears.
> I think maybe all along that's been my problem is people who feel the need to make big, grand announcements about whatever fringe interest they're involved in, when it's really very unnecessary.



I live in a city where seeing someone wearing furry ears is not REMOTELY the strangest thing you will see that day. I've seen Lolita girls downtown, I've seen an army of crossdressing guys on vespas, I've seen naked streaking bicyclists, people with fairy wings, just walking around Portland.

And you know what?

IT KICKS ASS.

 I mean, if you're living in Mud Lick, Kentucky, that's one thing, stay safe and don't get your ass beaten by idiot hicks. But I wear all sorts of crazy crap in public, and it's great fun. Fringe interests are humanity, and I don't take orders from anyone on the internet about how I should dress. Someone thinks I'm a freak? Good! Fuck him, I have a new car, a great job, a loving family, and sometimes I dress funny. There's way too much worrying about what joe average dickhead thinks. Have some damn self esteem. It's not about "unnecessary". If your problem is people who are individuals, then GOD don't move to Portland, because we're everywhere.


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## DavidN (Jan 23, 2007)

Excellent post!


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## Epsereth (Jan 23, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> I mean what harm is someone with a clean furry drawing on their T-shirt or a cloth tail doing?



I've always made fun of public-tail-wearers and I always will. It looks effing _stupid_ out of its appropriate context. XD


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## Epsereth (Jan 23, 2007)

*RE: "quotation marks"*



			
				Pomander said:
			
		

> Always flaunting shit and then getting offended when people go WTF. And god forbid the "WELL, I'M SPECIAL AND UR A MUNDANE (((" retort.



IAWTC. Just like I tell my gothy friends. However, it was _not _cool when a bunch of dayworkers in a minivan tried to run us over in a parking lot because they wanted to kill a "bunch of fucking vampire fucks." But that's kind of an outlying factor there. >_>"


Edit: Is it just me, or is it weird that "fuck" and "fucking" are edited but "fucks" is not?


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## XianJaguar (Jan 23, 2007)

EternalUndeath said:
			
		

> The fandom's name, while improved slightly by the BurnedFur movement, is still mud with the general populous. This needs to be addressed *NOW*!
> I am calling for nothing less than a revival of the Burned Furs!



Actually, the Burned Furs group have a reputation that's probably worse than that of Furry Fandom in general (or at least 'as bad as'). I wouldn't support their long-dead (or struggling-to-revive) movement at all. I think someone else summed it up best as 'Burned Furs LOL'.


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## quark (Jan 23, 2007)

turbinedivinity said:
			
		

> > See, the key is to know how much is too much.  When I see people on the bus who are scantily clad, wearing big pants around their ankles with gangsta hoodies, or wearing Naruto headbands, or wearing a tail, it makes me feel uncomfortable, and I'm sure others feel the same.  People need to learn that there are certain things that just aren't acceptable to go showing off in public. Like I said before, people need to develop a nice healthy sense of shame.
> > However, I do think it's okay to doodle clean furry art in a sketchbook while you're out, or to discreetly read a comic book, or something along those lines. They are quiet, and aren't big attention grabbers like wearing an anime costume, or wearing your new tail and ears.
> > I think maybe all along that's been my problem is people who feel the need to make big, grand announcements about whatever fringe interest they're involved in, when it's really very unnecessary.
> 
> ...



That's fine. I grew up in a town inhabited by hippies and have seen many a weirdo in my time. The city I live in some has a few free spirits here and there too.
But the point is, if you want to go out in public and look like an idiot, do not whine and complain when someone gives you a raised eyebrow, a funny look, or makes a comment.  It may be your right to dress how you want in public, but it's also my right to think you look like a tard for doing so.
I used to have this "I'll do what I want!" streak too. I got ridiculed for it. My new code for life is BLEND IN.  I'll be a weirdo as much as I want when I'm around those who love me, but in public, I try and behave myself so I don't make an ass of myself and embarass those around me. Admittedly I sometimes slip and will say and do something incredibly ridiculous, and will berate myself severely for it, but I'll chalk it up to the experience of "That was stupid, next time, don't do that"
Oh, and by the way, just because I choose to look like a fairly normal person when I go out in public doesn't make me any less of an individual. I think for myself, I have my own twisted sense of humour, and I have my own interests, some normal, some weird.  Don't assume I'm some 'mundane' because I don't choose to run around in a lolita dress wearing cat ears, fairy wings, and spraying glitter everywhere.


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## soundhound (Jan 24, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Considering being furry is a choice I really don't have much sympathy. Sorry, it's just that people try to equate it to real hatred and bigotry for things that aren't a choice, like a skin color, or gender.


iawtc
furry isn't a goddamn ethnicity. get over it.


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## shy (Jan 24, 2007)

BURNED FURS LOL INDEED. 

My name was on that list, once upon a time.. THEN I REALIZED I LOVE DRAWING PORNOGRAPHY AND GETTING PAID FOR IT, AND FUCK AN IMAGE OF THE FURRY FANDOM. I don't give a shit who is suffering. If furry consumes your life so much that you recieve flak for it, you probably deserve it. And while I've never worn it on my sleeve, no one in class has ever made fun of me for drawing what I draw. I would laugh in their fucking face if they did, 1, and I'm not a tard so people actually respect me, 2. Maybe you should work a little on 2.


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## Melo (Jan 24, 2007)

shy said:
			
		

> I'm not a tard so people actually respect me, 2. Maybe you should work a little on 2.



The fact that you'd suggest the guys is a "tard" because of his give situation; it kind of takes away the whole idea of you being respectable.


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## Epsereth (Jan 24, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> just because I choose to look like a fairly normal person when I go out in public doesn't make me any less of an individual. I think for myself, I have my own twisted sense of humour, and I have my own interests, some normal, some weird.Â Â Don't assume I'm some 'mundane' because I don't choose to run around in a lolita dress wearing cat ears, fairy wings, and spraying glitter everywhere.



Very well said, Quark. Well said indeed.


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## Option7 (Jan 24, 2007)

To be honest, there doesn't seem to be all that much knowledge of furry here in the UK. At least, not where I'm from.
That said, I agree that furry is a hobby. If you don't want to be slated for it then don't tell everyone.
Although, doesn't get much more public than the internet :


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## Foxstar (Jan 24, 2007)

soundhound said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



God damn yes. Next furry I hear compare internet and IRL sneering at them as akin to the KKK lynching a black person, I may have to kill them and hang their skull outside the door as a warning to others. 

Sit down, shut up and go about your lives. Go to your cons, your furmeets, play on your mucks, commission your porn. Do it like you would any other thing, meaning don't wear ears, loud ugly shirts that proclaim your furryness or try to 'come out' to fellow classmates, co workers and whatnot. Your in a hobby shared with a clusterfuck of people with various intrests and fetishes. The face of it is not good. It will never be good. Deal with it.


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## brightlioness (Jan 24, 2007)

Whoa.
This is all very fascinating to me. I mean, seeing as how I'm very new to the fandom and have never experienced "fursecution" in any form. Well, my sister thinks it's weird, but nothing more than that.

Some of you were debating about things like wearing things like ears or tails. Methinks collars would fit in that category too...
Anyway, I don't really have much right to have a proper oppinion about this since I've never experienced the problems. But even so, I do have definite ideas about  that sort of thing. 
I don't have any problem whatsoever with people dressing oddly or wearing accessories that are unique to a fandom or anything like that. Not everyone would want to, but I for one just enjoy looking odd sometimes ^_^ I don't make it a daily practice, but every once in a while I'll wear kitty ears. Why? Cuz it's fun! I think they're cute!
And my brother wears his Naruto headband fairly frequently. (sand village, not that I like Nauto...) He doesn't do it because he thinks it makes him an individual or because people would like him or dislike him, he just enjoys wearing it. I could go on, but I think you have the gist of what I'm saying.

Another thing, if you're going to say that it's a bad thing to display one's fandom in the way they dress, then where does it stop? I'm a member of the anime fandom. Would it be bad if I wore cosplay? Would it be bad if a wore a headband/piece of jewelry from a show? Would it be bad if my shirt had an anime character on it? Would it be bad if I carried a bag that depicts anime characters? Where would you draw the line?
Yea, I realize that I'm doing that thoroughly annoying thing of looking at your words and not actually what you mean, but in this case I'm not sure where the line would be.

Also, what about just dressing oddly in general? I've been known to wear a my suit jacket with the lovely gold embroidery on a whim. My sister often wears her lovely haori. Me, my mom, and my sisters plan to all get decked out in kimono and go to the botanical garden one day and flutter fans while admiring the flowers (I'm so looking foreward to that!). I truly want to know if this out of the ordinary clothing would be looked down on.

And then someone said that one shouldn't complain about being treated differently if one is going draw attention to the fact that they are different. Of course! I wouldn't have any problem with people thinking that I'm odd. I don't want to blend in. Not because I think that I'm special, but simply because I'd get bored ^_^ I act different from most people too. I realize that some people aren't going to like me because I'm different, but there are tons of people in this world and I'd probably prefer to be around the percentage that don't hate someone because they act or dress differently from the norm.

And now the main topic. The idea of this Burned Fur appeals to me, but after hearing about what it actually was and looking at the site, I'm don't think I'd like to be part of it.


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## brightlioness (Jan 24, 2007)

Midnight Panics said:
			
		

> How many members here don't willingly look at furry pornography?


*raises hand*


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## Xax (Jan 24, 2007)

At first I wanted to make a big long essay post here, but now I feel my opinion can be summed up with the following:

CLEARLY YOU ARE ALL MUNDANES *WAGS TAIL N PADS OFF ON PAWPADS*


also, this new 'profanity filter' thing is stupid.


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## Option7 (Jan 24, 2007)

NOOO CENSORSHIP.


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## R5K (Jan 24, 2007)

brightlioness said:
			
		

> Another thing, if you're going to say that it's a bad thing to display one's fandom in the way they dress, then where does it stop? I'm a member of the anime fandom. Would it be bad if I wore cosplay? Would it be bad if a wore a headband/piece of jewelry from a show? Would it be bad if my shirt had an anime character on it? Would it be bad if I carried a bag that depicts anime characters? Where would you draw the line?


You can't place this line anywhere for longer than a moment. Consider where you are, who's around, whatever. Decide for the situation. And keep in mind that people will judge you by what they see, since they do not know everything about you.

"Oh, she is wearing those freaky ears... why the f*ck would someone do this? I guess it's [Please insert stupid thesis here.]... seems quite f*cked up to me. I'll better get going."

As an analogy: I, for myself, would love it to be in the nude all day long... but, yeah, it doesn't work.

Edit: And I love the new censorship. Now I have the chance to write f*ck f*ck f*ck as often as I wish while not feeling guilty for anything. Censorship for president!

Another Edit: Censored myself since the obscenity filters are off again


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## ADF (Jan 24, 2007)

brightlioness said:
			
		

> Whoa.
> This is all very fascinating to me. I mean, seeing as how I'm very new to the fandom and have never experienced "fursecution" in any form.
> [snip]


I'm pretty much in the same boat; people may misinterpret my ramblings as a fur who was made fun of and is moaning about social acceptance online, I'm too new to the fandom to be persecuted for it yet  hell I've only been active in it for about 2 months now.

Call it initial curiosity if you like; this is all new to me so I want to investigate every aspect of it. There are certain areas of discussion you can get away with on a furry themed forum that would be considered too weird on a normal one, it would be a shame not to take advantage of that. Though I imagine to the long time members this is all redundant so I can see why some people are just saying STFU and get over it.

As for the whole collar business, if the mosher sub culture can get away with it I don't see why furries cannot. I mean if someone wearing oversized clothing covered in straps, a weird gelled hair style and a spiked collar can acquire social acceptance than furry becoming tolerated is just dependant on the number of people who get into it.


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## brightlioness (Jan 24, 2007)

R5K said:
			
		

> As an analogy: I, for myself, would love it to be in the nude all day long... but, yeah, it doesn't work.


I figured someone would bring out that... The two can't really be compared since walking around in the nude is clearly socially unacceptable in the US and illegal in many states. Wearing kitty ears/tail/headbands is just a bit odd.


And Pomander...
.........


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## shy (Jan 24, 2007)

I once went into a courthouse to file papers taking legal action against an apartment complex (I won a grand sum of money). This old crack head saw the purple tail I had on and was like, "Some people may think that's far out. But I think its rad."  Just, so you know, not everyone hates tails. Crack heads love them!

I think when it comes down to it, you need to realize that if you do something outside of the social norms of your locale, you can and will be held accountable for it. By that I do not mean you should be persecuted for what you enjoy. I wish no one was bothered because of what they like, how they dress, and all that. Duh. But by that I mean if you wear your bizarre interests on your sleeve, you should be prepared to stand up in public for it. 

You should always stand up for what you believe in when its called on. But you should do it in public. When its called on. Not back home with a bunch of people who are going to pat you on the head and agree with you by default of who they are. Furries like most ostracized group members have this funny habit of being either matyrs or perpetual victims. 

You (EU) probably got "laughed at" because your topic was irelevent to 90% of the class who had no clue what a "furry" was, and the other 10% was like "What the fuck, dude." Including your teacher. Depending on your class, that probably was not an acceptable topic for a research paper either. 

I will agree however that your teacher, if he/she did, had absolutely no business making fun of you for it. That is pretty uncalled for and you should go to the dean with it.


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## shy (Jan 24, 2007)

Also: Re: Pomander [clockwork orange picture]: 

I've always imagined there is this classic black rape van going around forcing furs to look at pornography. Scary men in suits, A warehouse in the boonies, LD50, Kitty Porn Enthusiasts with a slide machine and a boom box playing the "Chu Chu Rocket" Theme song on repeat... 

Otherwise I'm not really sure how they are being "subjected" to something you have to move your mouse pointer over, select and load in your web browser to view. I dunno. Maybe I'm just missing something 'cause I have pop-ups blocked.


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## shy (Jan 24, 2007)

I wish my friends would strap me into a chair and force me to... *shakes head* Err, nevermind.


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## brightlioness (Jan 24, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> I believe they were referring less to the horrors that one can stumble across on FA and more like, "Hey, I don't care for furry porn, but man, sometimes my friends just strap me into a chair and FORCE me to look at it! I was unwilling, but what could I do? I was powerless before their yiffy might."


Actually, a friend of mine (crazy *yaoi fan) has been known to make another friend of mine (fears **naruXsasuke) look at ***shounen-ai doujinshi.

*Japanese term for guyXguy
**A semi non-cannonical pairing between two guys from the popular anime and manga, Naruto
***Doujinshi is basically legal fan comics made in Japan. They usually feature ridiculously pretty art and wild pairings. Shounen-ai translates to "boy-love".


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## TheSkunkCat (Jan 24, 2007)

*Very recently, I started a research paper on the various steryotypes being applied to the furry fandom and how most of them are false (i.e., we are not all perverts and child molesters) *

We're not all perverts? Sure, I strongly agree we're not all child molesters (cause if we where we'd all need to be beaten and shot.) but surely you concede that we are all perverts? I mean... those 'christian furs' and their squeaky cleanness? If some sort of wolf or jaguar fur or whatever walked up to them ready to shag, they'd do it. And if they where turned into their personal furs themselves, they'd be totally touching themselves and licking themselves in inappropriate places due to their now vastly more flexible spines. Sure... they'll DENY it. But they'll still DO it.

Lets face it; A) All of us either would do it with an anthro, or we're lying through our f'in' teeth about it. And B) To the fundiest of people, everything thats not missionary position between a man and a woman with the guy on top and the couple married is 'perverted'. So not only are we all perverts... 99% of the world population is. And the other 1% is lying.

Of course, that said... there's nothing specifically wrong with furries for being perverts. Unless they really are childmolesters. In that case... back to that getting beaten and shot thing for them.


*and that the heart and meaning of being a "furry" is just a form of art appreciation, like being fond of cubism or surrealism or something.*

Eh... And furry is an internationally recognized art-style now?  Like... in the sense that you can buy furry art and it'll actually increase in value over time? Or at least stay steady? Like... a safe investment?


*My professor immediately told me that if I submited any such thing, it would result in an instant failure, and on the way out of the room I was called a "perv" and a "freak" among other things (which can't be written here).*

Your story has a strong 'I just made this stuff up' vibe. Most people, amazingly. Don't know what the crap furry is. Trust me. Its had media attention, but everything gets media attention nowadays. People's attention spans really aren't that great. Even if they got that special mocking furries, they probably forgot five minutes after the show anyway.

Mind you, if I was a teacher, I would strongly derecommend doing research papers on obscure subcultures too. Though in case of this story I wonder what the whole research paper was for anyway. Cause you mention no course at all.

All in all you come off as some kid trying to be interesting by starting a holy crusade. And to do so you made up this SOB story about how everybody hates you cuz' your furry.


* I admitt it may have been fairly stupid to announce a research paper on such a personal topic, but the fact that several of my "friends" now avoid me like the plague is disgraceful not only to me, but to every self-respecting furry alive. The fandom's name, while improved slightly by the BurnedFur movement, is still mud with the general populous. This needs to be addressed NOW!*

The fandoms name was improved by the Burned Fur movement? From where I stand that stuff opened up this gigantic 'LOL Furries!' can of whoopass on the fandom. Because to outsiders, it was basically furries attacking eachother.


* I am calling for nothing less than a revival of the Burned Furs! If you are interested in the movement, their original website can still be found here. Please feel free to E-Mail me at my gmail address with your personal burn story, I'm making a website for BurnedFurRevived soon, and would love to be able to post your stories (anonymously, of course).*

LOL Furries!


* Please, help me speak out [size=x-large]today[/size].
(also, please don't flame this thread, I've had enough flaming in real life already)



*

Dude... You do realize you might as well have put on this gigantic 'please flame me' t-shirt, right?


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 24, 2007)

Foxstar said:
			
		

> soundhound said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now you know why I hang around even though I'm not a furry, I find it fascinating and hilarious. It's like reading the Onion I laugh so hard at the absurdity of it all I'm crying.

I like drawing different things, furries are one of them. I don't mind going to a con or two just for the experience though I'm really a misanthrope but it's hardly a way to make REAL friends. I mean every con report is how "I miss my furry friends" ...is a con the only way to make friends? I'm baffled. Yes, it's nice to have friends with similar interests but goddamn man, if everyone liked everything I did the world would be a fucking boring place.

I get tired of people using actual movements for change for their own pissant hobbies or things done by choice. Illegal immigrants saying their civil rights are violated when they come to the US ILLEGALLY?!? You decided to come here wtf. ...
....Same thing with furries, it's not that you CAN'T wear a fursuit and tail, but you have to remember there are consequences with what you do. You want the right to wear shit that looks funny to other people, other people have the right to laugh and think you're a fucking tard!

This scream for individuality through fashion is a fucking TREND. That's it. What you wore 20 years ago is not going to be what you wear now. Fursuits included, unless you're one of those hopeless people that yearn for the past instead of living in the present.

You're not the only one that gets made fun of for being ridiculous, just because sports fans love their team, it doesn't mean everyone accepts the idiot potbellies that have to paint their fat guts to say GO RAIDERS or whatever team they love. People still see them as ridiculous too.

Anyone too obsessed with their hobby to make it a lifestyle gets made fun of, you're not so special.


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## Litre (Jan 24, 2007)

All what Arshes said, I give a huge QTF to. a really big one.


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## verix (Jan 24, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> I can't imagine a situation where you would be unwillingly looking at furry porn.


Those furverts have ruined Beethoven for me forever.


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## nobuyuki (Jan 24, 2007)

> Illegal immigrants saying their civil rights are violated when they come to the US ILLEGALLY?!? You decided to come here wtf. ...



off topic, but civil rights are natural rights, so says john locke


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 24, 2007)

nobuyuki said:
			
		

> > Illegal immigrants saying their civil rights are violated when they come to the US ILLEGALLY?!? You decided to come here wtf. ...
> 
> 
> 
> off topic, but civil rights are natural rights, so says john locke



Given to those who come here LEGALLY. Period.


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## Foxstar (Jan 24, 2007)

nobuyuki said:
			
		

> > Illegal immigrants saying their civil rights are violated when they come to the US ILLEGALLY?!? You decided to come here wtf. ...
> 
> 
> 
> off topic, but civil rights are natural rights, so says john locke



Those are limited when your breaking the law.


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## brightlioness (Jan 24, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> brightlioness said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I figured that some people would know the terms and some wouldn't, so I may as well explain it for the ones that don't, ne?

Eh, my friend may really like NaruXSasuke, but she's not like THAT. Not a all.


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## Hanazawa (Jan 24, 2007)

SasuNaru ga atta yaoi no fangyaaru-tachi ha sugoku ureshiku naru wa, ne????

honto ni watashi ha nihon anime no fangyaaru-tachi ga daikiraindayo :| jyuurokusai gurai ni naru to fangyaaru-rashii no shuutai wo yamenakucha dame da wa... to omotte'ru.


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## blueroo (Jan 24, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> nobuyuki said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Natural Rights (Human Rights) are not granted, by definition. They are simply there and apply to all human beings. Hence the term _Natural_ rights. They are not strictly American Rights applied only to Americans. The United States' founding father's recognized these Natural Rights and knew that they applied to all men. As such, they signed a document stating "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

Hold on to your seat, conservative isolationists. This next paragraph will probably bump your blood pressure up a bit.

That said, Civil Rights are not Natural Rights. In the case of the United States however, the Bill of Rights are rules that apply to our federal government (and as such are rights that the federal government can not violate*). These rights are not _granted_ but are recognized in the Constitution as rights held by all men that the government may not infringe upon. Because of this, these rights apply to all people. That includes immigrants both lawful and unlawful, terrorists, enemy combatants, and every other person whom some would like to disenfranchise of these rights for whatever reason.

_The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further *declaratory and restrictive clauses* should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution_


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## soundhound (Jan 24, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Foxstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YES
YES
YES.
Thank you, you hit the nail right onthe head!!!
Furry is a HOBBY. Drawing animal headed people is a HOBBY. If you're talented enough to make a living doing it, good for you. But the MINUTE you go around and say being a furry is equivalent to being a certain ethnicity, or preferring to be referred to as an animal rather than your 'icky hy00man self', you deserve EVERY INSULT you get.
:


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## R5K (Jan 24, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> nobuyuki said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excuse the massive off-topic, but... You don't need to _come_ illegally to be stripped off every human rights - it's just already enough when you're _brought_ illegally, even against your own will. *cough*CIA*cough* :lol:

Edit: One won't see the need for rights unless he/she/it has none.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 24, 2007)

blueroo said:
			
		

> Hold on to your seat, conservative isolationists. This next paragraph will probably bump your blood pressure up a bit.
> 
> That said, Civil Rights are not Natural Rights. In the case of the United States however, the Bill of Rights are rules that apply to our federal government (and as such are rights that the federal government can not violate*). These rights are not _granted_ but are recognized in the Constitution as rights held by all men that the government may not infringe upon. Because of this, these rights apply to all people. That includes immigrants both lawful and unlawful, terrorists, enemy combatants, and every other person whom some would like to disenfranchise of these rights for whatever reason.
> 
> _The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further *declaratory and restrictive clauses* should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution_



Though it's off topic, comparing someone coming here illegally because they want money and ignore the laws of the land, is a lot different than someone who was smuggled or trafficked here as a slave. It's rather insulting that they demand rights and compare it to the movement of people who lost generations of their identity, and were told they were subhuman by the Bible. So when I say Civil Rights, I'm referring to the Civil Rights movement by Martin Luther King Jr.

No one said they had to come here it was their choice in most of these cases, their countries may not be up to par with the US but there are many of us who waited in line to be legal going through the same sorts of strife.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 24, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> TheSkunkCat said:
> 
> 
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Just wanted to say THANK YOU. This assumption blows my mind sometimes.


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## Sylvine (Jan 24, 2007)

Ehh, I don't know. You people say the whole Furry thing is a hobby and nothing to brag about. And, yeah, You're right. 
But then again, this whole Furry thing is a hobby and nothing to be _ashamed_ about. 

If I hear somewhere that all metal heads are a bunch of satanistic fuckheads, I'll object, and I'll do it loudly. If I hear all goths are vampire wannabes, I'll object as well. I'll also object if I hear that chess is nerdy, WoW is geeky, and cricket is for pussies... and note here that I neither listen excessively to Metal, nor am I a goth, a chess, WoW or cricket player. I will therefore NOT bow my head and listen quietly when someone bashes on my little hobby. I will accept remarks as "weird", "strange", perhaps even "idiotic" or "childish". I will not tolerate if someone is being insulting, much less so if the insults are of personal nature, and directed at myself. Meaning: Don't You ( a general You ) dare call me a sick motherfucker just because I happen to enjoy anthropomorphic art. 

There's a difference between being an attention whore and standing up to one's own life - and yes, a hobby _is_ part of Your life. Hence, I won't be going around screaming "Hey, I'm a furry, I'm a furry!" - but I also won't be too careful not to mention the topic in a conversation, and I won't be a hypocrite nodding to the words of a hater if I know they also apply to myself. And, by the Gods, I would most certainly not let any professor call me a freak and a perv because of some illogical bias ( yes, it's bias. The word is not exclusive to culture/race/whatever ) of his. 

~Sylv


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## Epsereth (Jan 25, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Just wanted to say THANK YOU. This assumption blows my mind sometimes.



Yeah, I'm not into the yiff thing myself. Sometimes I'll say "Oh So-And-So is sexy" or "That monster is sexy," and I"m not actually saying I'd shag them ... Like, I think Godzilla has sexy feet, but I think that would be a weird lay no? *lols*

I've also seen my share of asexual furries, and I myself have a libido the size of a dust mite. Ergo, Epsereth herself (who doesn't even possess genetalia), as well as a couple other characters I've created, are all asexual. I'll bet that blows whatserfaces mind! :O


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## quark (Jan 25, 2007)

Epsereth said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
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I'm agreeing with you guys here. Just cause I like anthro drawings doesn't mean I'd want to boink some weird animal/human hybrid. Comes too close to bestiality for my liking. And me no likey bestiality.


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## Edge (Jan 25, 2007)

Non-furs just need to learn to not take furry so seriously.


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## shy (Jan 25, 2007)

I think furries need to learn to not take furry so seriously, too.


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## Epsereth (Jan 25, 2007)

shy said:
			
		

> I think furries need to learn to not take furry so seriously, too.



*gasp* What a concept! :O Heathen.


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## Foxstar (Jan 25, 2007)

shy said:
			
		

> I think furries need to learn to not take furry so seriously, too.



It will be a cold day in...


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## ADF (Jan 25, 2007)

After thinking about it for a bit I think I can explain my feelings this way...

Say your having a conversation with someone about furry and end up talking about it in a serious manner, I don't know... for instance how a furry world would work in every small detail. Suddenly a random guy jumps out of nowhere and yells â€œstop taking furry so seriously!â€ before pelting you across the head with a steal bat and running into the distance.

Motivated to avoid your skull collapsing in on itself you change the subject to something less serious. You start messing around, role-playing your animal self a bit and contemplating how cool a tail would be when suddenly another guy appears out of nowhere and in a animÃ© style fashion uses his steal bat to bust your knee caps. He makes sure to scream â€œquit acting so daft! It makes the rest of us look badâ€ at you before sprinting off into the distance.

So now what do you do? If you take it serious someone will be angry at you, if you do the opposite someone else will be angry at you.

After reading peoples angry posts on both I have to say everything in moderation. I see nothing wrong with taking furry super serious, from time to time. Or acting weird and making animal noises similar to your chosen species, in the right place. But if people are going to be crucified *by their own fandom* for doing either at any time then being furry is boring 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




What are we 'allowed' to talk about then? Considering both serious and fun are not a option.


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## ADF (Jan 25, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> ..what? Only your "after reading..." paragraph made sense. I at least get that you're acknowledging there's a right time and a right place, but role-playing animal self out in public...? Um. Maybe if you're like... seven years old or at a furry convention. : Anywhere else and it WOULD be daft. I hope that's the point?


Err not in public 



> Or acting weird and making animal noises similar to your chosen species, *in the right place.*


Don't get me wrong, I have no urge to act like a animal and make animal noises in public. But I've seen people on here get angry because people do it *on the forum*, if they cannot RP their furry self on a furry forum where can they?


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## ADF (Jan 25, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> While I agree, I think a (furry?) role-playing forum would be even more appropriate. It'd be nice if there were a forum for that here -- then I wouldn't have to be reminded of the "Cuddles" thread every time I click on "General Chat." 8)


While that would be nice it is the small roleplay I am referring to. Such as for instance someone typing a animal noise or action in their post e.g. â€œpurr, bark, murr, wags tailâ€. While innocent enough I have seen users complain about it, the â€œWhat pisses you right the !@#$ off?â€ thread in particular has several posts expressing their dislike of such behaviour.


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## uncia2000 (Jan 25, 2007)

tl;dr & pointless points split; to be deported.

(Stay generally on-topic rather than deliberately attempt to destroy any discussion when it's clear that there is a discussion, thank you... Even if this thread was in "rants & raves", which it's not. There are people in this community other than yourselves.
If the thread dies of its own accord _without_ derailing, so be it).

d.


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## Epsereth (Jan 25, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> While that would be nice it is the small roleplay I am referring to. Such as for instance someone typing a animal noise or action in their post e.g. â€œpurr, bark, murr, wags tailâ€. While innocent enough I have seen users complain about it, the â€œWhat pisses you right the !@#$ off?â€ thread in particular has several posts expressing their dislike of such behaviour.



I don't see anything wrong with it as it's more or less just habit. I don't do it and it kind of irritates me when people go overboard with it, but I think it's so minor it's rather a non-issue.

Separate thing altogether when people do it in public. One guy came up to me once, said "Murrrrrrrrrr," rubbed his face on me, and was the victim of a severe slap-impulse. X( It's that kind of thing that's not appropriate in public, when non-furries are around anyway.


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## lolcox (Jan 25, 2007)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> tl;dr & pointless points split; to be deported.
> 
> (Stay generally on-topic rather than deliberately attempt to destroy any discussion when it's clear that there is a discussion, thank you... Even if this thread was in "rants & raves", which it's not.
> There are people in this community other than yourselves).
> ...



Except that you split a completely and totally relevant question out of the thread that was included with my tl;dr.

Would you prefer I ask it like this:

"What in the FUCK are you talking about, kid? You make my head hurt with the lack of sense your entire goddamn statement made."


Lurk Moar.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 25, 2007)

To follow lolcox.
Also stating that a thread about embarrassment being hilarious isn't exactly pointless.

In other words, take a step back to laugh at yourselves instead of getting upset over everything.

But ok.


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## GuitarSolo (Jan 25, 2007)

Im in also, anything that has to do with writing and can be done via forum or e-mail I'm game.
Put me on your website even, ill be glad to help.


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## Calbeck (Jan 25, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> On the subject of the burned furs themselves, all that they produced was a lot of pointless arguing on alt.fan.furry and the now defunct Yerf newsgroups (although it was a few years before I paid any attention to furry fandom) and much hurt feelings. They also, ironically enough, drew far more attention to the adult elements than would otherwise have been warrented, simply because they were making a lot of noise about them.



Please, don't start up that hoary old myth.  The fact is that, of all the negative press which exists about furries to date, exactly ONE article was published mentioning Burned Fur --- and that was solely because the furverts who were being interviewed about their personal sex lives brought it up, claiming BFs were out to purge sex from the fandom.

The article in question went on to call Burned Fur a "hate group" and "homophobic", statements which the reporter had to retract after a long and extended discussion with me personally.

In point of fact, most of the negative press about furry fandom is directly related to people with sexual fetishes voluntarily talking to reporters about them.  The remainder is merely a matter of mass media picking up on the initial bad press --- such as the TV shows "CSI" and "St. Elsewhere", which reinforced the image of furries being nothing but a bunch of sex addicts who wear animal costumes purely for kinks.

As for the yelling and carrying on on alt.fan.furry, most of it was produced by people who either _defended_ public displays of sex in common areas at conventions (the single most common complaint levied by BFs), or who attempted to prevent any actual discussion by deliberately derailing the threads.  When you have ONE Burned Fur in a thread complaining about a guy who goes around the Knott's Berry Farm Hotel lobby dancing in nothing but a Dixie cup and bunny ears, shoving his ass in people's faces "'cause isn't that what furries DO?", and you have FIVE people claiming that the BF is being a fascist for complaining, it's not the BF causing the noise-to-signal problems.

And in the end, it was complaints of sexual issues at conventions which ultimately led most furry conventions to finally install rules governing behavior at furcons.  So now, we don't have to worry about News Channel Five catching that idiot in the Dixie cup on live footage.



> Because of the nature of furry, no one can make it into how they think it *should* be. One can only deal with it _as it is._



One can always ask one's fellows to engage in the use of a little bit of class.  One should not be attacked, demonized, or mythologized into a boogeyman for having said so, either.



> There *will* be bad things and all', just like there is with any fandom, but there is sometimes too much focus on that I think.



Which is precisely the problem: the world at large focuses on it.  This is not about what FURRIES perceive, it's about what people who otherwise have absolutely no knowledge of what furry is perceive ABOUT furries.

Star Trek fans get crap, but not nearly as much as we...because the general public knows what Star Trek is about.  ST fans are merely "nerds".

We, however, are "freaks", and to be shunned and belittled, because the only thing the general public thinks that it knows about us revolves entirely around no-holds-barred pornography and cosplay sex.  Imagine if all people "knew" about anime cons were that people dressed up as Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask for the express purpose of having sex.  That is OUR reputation.



> So what if people bash or the media plays the "freaks and geeks" line? or furry has a "bad reputation"? You know what you like and you do what you like and people who whine and complain can go away.



If they did, that wouldn't be a problem.  Instead we get trolls attacking our websites ("for lols"), people heckled and insulted at their universities, and furries who have to hide their art from their loved ones and families for fear they'll be misunderstood as "porn freaks".

Precisely _because_ people bash and the media plays the "freaks and geeks" line.  Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.


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## Calbeck (Jan 25, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> I'm starting to become more and more convinced that people need to start gaining more of a sense of shame, and to know that there are some things you keep to yourself, some things you let people you are close to know, and some things that it's okay to let anyone know. But people nowadays have this idea that they should be free to tell everybody everything about themselves, no matter how crazy it might be.



Congratulations, you just paraphrased pretty much the entire opening to the Burned Fur Manifesto.  Nicer language and without the snarkiness, but pretty much spot on, same thing Charla Trotman was flamed into oblivion for saying roughly ten years ago.


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## blueroo (Jan 25, 2007)

_"Dear Fandom I willingly choose to participate in,

Please change your behavior so that I feel better about showing you to my family and friends.

Selfishly,
Burned Fur"_

Not really a philosophy that I can get behind.


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## Rhainor (Jan 25, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> In other words, take a step back to laugh at yourselves instead of getting upset over everything.



Sound advice.  To add my own line to it:
_"If you can't laugh at yourself, you've got no right to laugh at anyone else."_





			
				Calbeck said:
			
		

> Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.



{nods}  To quote Aldous Huxley, _"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."_


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## Calbeck (Jan 25, 2007)

blueroo said:
			
		

> _"Dear Fandom I willingly choose to participate in,
> 
> Please change your behavior so that I feel better about showing you to my family and friends.
> 
> ...



Aaaaand when did "show a little class" and "don't blare your sex life to the press" amount to "change your behavior"...unless you have no class and like telling the general public, which doesn't WANT to know, about your personal kinks?

Hey, it's JUST like alt.fan.furry...now all you need is another four people screaming about how I'm trying to "clean up the fandom" and the stupid will be complete.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 25, 2007)

You act like the problem is singular to furries, many hobbies are flamed. Maybe I don't see it as a big deal or a need for a political movement. "Oh poor us" come on give me a break. Trying to say one fandom is getting less crap than another. What science are you using? There is no actual data that can back this up anyways. That's just silly.


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## blueroo (Jan 25, 2007)

Calbeck said:
			
		

> blueroo said:
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Telling other people to "show a little class" and "don't blare your sex live to the press" is in fact asking them to change their behaviors. Those things are behaviors, and you want them changed. If the public doesn't want to know, it sure isn't acting like it. The press eats this stuff up, and viewers do too.

Again, what right do you have to regulate other people's behavior for your own personal desires?

Consider this a warning. I'm perfectly happy having a discussion, but calling anyone "stupid" is not acceptable.


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## wut (Jan 25, 2007)

ADF said:
			
		

> Pomander said:
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Perhaps because this is a discussion forum (however relaxed that may be) and not a roleplay forum.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 25, 2007)

wut said:
			
		

> ADF said:
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Discussion quoted for extra boxwang but still relevant.

I often stated dislike for such things because its the equivalent of BABY Gibberish. You know the kind of talk you hear parents talk to newborns with because they think it's cute?

Murring, tailwagging pawpaws is like saying "goo goo gah gah" to me.


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## wut (Jan 25, 2007)

Well the world obviously needs more boxwang.


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## TeeGee (Jan 25, 2007)

"neko kawaii desu desu kyooot ^____________^;;;;;" = "*murrs* *wags tail* *purr* *howl* YIFFYIFFYIFF hyoomunns"

So keep in mind it's not just the furry fandom that has stupid phrases, others have it too.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 25, 2007)

TeeGee said:
			
		

> "neko kawaii desu desu kyooot ^____________^;;;;;" = "*murrs* *wags tail* *purr* *howl* YIFFYIFFYIFF hyoomunns"
> 
> So keep in mind it's not just the furry fandom that has stupid phrases, others have it too.



Agreed. Live long and prosper!  /


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## TeeGee (Jan 25, 2007)

I'd also like to say that "mundane" and "hyoomunn" are both stupid words to use.


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## roxy (Jan 25, 2007)

TeeGee said:
			
		

> "neko kawaii desu desu kyooot ^____________^;;;;;" = "*murrs* *wags tail* *purr* *howl* YIFFYIFFYIFF hyoomunns"
> 
> So keep in mind it's not just the furry fandom that has stupid phrases, others have it too.



I'm not defending either one but I would like to point out that the former is actually a real language.


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## TeeGee (Jan 25, 2007)

roxy said:
			
		

> TeeGee said:
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I am aware. It's just a stupid way of using it. "Every time you use a Japanese word in English, God kills a business man".

Lost the picture.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 25, 2007)

Klingon is an actual language.


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## TeeGee (Jan 25, 2007)

I'd rather meet someone who knows Old Norse or Gaelic. Those are at least semi-useful. :|


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 25, 2007)

Pomander said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
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Remember that guy taught his kids to speak Klingon. There is a dictionary, and a linguist actually wrote the language. I kinda find it fascinating yet horrifying at the same time.


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## SachiCoon (Jan 25, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> The more furries whine and gripe about how 'fursecuted' they are, the more they are going to get made fun of.
> People are always going to have ideas and notions about certain things.  But the thing is, if you could just keep your hobbies that people think are weird to yourself, then those people will have nothing to tease you about.  If they find out somehow, you just shrug it off and say "I like the drawings" or something along those lines, and leave it at that. If you start crying about how you're not a freak and how you don't rape kids...they're going to think you're a freak.
> I like anime. But you know what? I don't go up to every person I meet on the street and start talking about how I'm not a pedophile, and how I don't enjoy dressing up in anime costumes, and oh, man, giant robots are so cool, and I'm so misunderstood!  If I want to talk anime, I wait until I'm around people that I know like it.  You know why? Anime is a fringe interest. Just like furry.
> You guys act like this is some sexuality or mental disorder that was forced on you. It wasn't. You weren't born a furry. This was a choice. Furry is a HOBBY.
> You don't want people thinking you're a freak because you like furry? Then stop announcing it to the whole world!




I came here with the intent to write pretty much the same thing, but you beat me too it. Couldn't of said it better myself.


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## Rostam The Grey (Jan 26, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Pomander said:
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Well, if you want to say something private, you could be 99.99999% sure no one else would be listening!


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## Turbine_Divinity (Jan 26, 2007)

*RE: "quotation marks"*



			
				Pomander said:
			
		

> turbinedivinity said:
> 
> 
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yes, yes, we've all seen Fight Club. And you're making up things I didn't say, which I suppose is how one argues on this here internet. Being different doesn't make you more of an individual, but being constantly afraid of what everyone else thinks of you? That makes you a very boring and perhaps scared individual. OH SHIT MY STARS IT IS OUTSIDE THE NORM WHATEVER WILL WE DO


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## blueroo (Jan 26, 2007)

Just a reminder folks: Don't get vicious, and don't get personal. I don't want to see anyone tearing in to anyone else. And remember this board is PG-13 and that does include language.


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## K-Red (Jan 27, 2007)

I had a friend who was violently anti-furry. He would go so far as to throw things at you if you even mentioned anything furry. In the area I live he actually made the general perspective of furries cleaner and more innocent because he is viewed as a useless individual whom no one cares for, holds extreme, biased, and downright bigoted opinions with which no one agrees with, as well as the fact that he is a disrespectful moron.
It works the other way too, if you violently persecute something it tends in make it more innocent... ...unless you are an authority figure.


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## Hakar (Jan 28, 2007)

The day I stopped caring about what people think about furries was when I was browsing around for info on a game called Fury of the Furries.
Now, this game has nothing to do with us, it's about balls of fluff trying to make their way across a landscape. I found a message board on old games, with a thread on said game.
The thread was 5 pages long, and full of people saying what a great game it was, how to play it, and asking for help. Except for one post in the middle of it, which was some guy going on a rant about, even though he had never played or even seen the game, the fact that the title contained the word 'furries' automatically made it about us 'degenerate freaks' and some other crap. Amusingly enough, he was completely ignored by the other posters.
After I read that, I though to myself 'So these are the people who have a problem with us?'.
Screw that. Most people don't know or care about us, and most others think we are weird at worst. Some might even make jokes about us, many of which are actually funny.
So I laugh at the funny ones (Dork Tower for example), shrug at the unfunny ones, and feel sorry for the few losers who get so upset about a bunch of people on the internet who like anthropomorphic animals.


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## Sereryth (Jan 28, 2007)

*Sh*t happens.*


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## kitetsu (Jan 28, 2007)

If i had the opportunity to lay blame on furries about something, it's their excessive use of animal names that turn into prefixes and suffixes of their "fursonas'" names.

Only 1 person will take that idea very genuinely seriously: the conceiver.


On-topic: This movement started by OP is pretty pointless (and daft). To be honest, i'm comparing all this "STAND UP AND FIGHT" bullshit to either a hardcore PETA follower, or an extreme radical muslim mufti like that Al-Hilaly guy. In fact i'm leaning more to the latter, because Al-Hilaly can't make up his mind about wether or not aussies are a bunch of lying geese.

Sorry, but this jihad sucks muhammad balls. I'd rather join Al-Qaeda than Burned Furs.


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## blueroo (Jan 28, 2007)

kitetsu said:
			
		

> If i had the opportunity to lay blame on furries about something, it's their excessive use of animal names that turn into prefixes and suffixes of their "fursonas'" names.



Interesting. Furries must have been around for a very long time. People have been naming themselves and their children after objects and ideas with qualities they wished to posses since the beginning of recorded history.

Richard - Means "brave power", derived from the Germanic elements ric "power, rule" and hard "brave, hardy".

George - From the Greek name Î“ÎµÏ‰ÏÎ³Î¹Î¿Ï‚ (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word Î³ÎµÏ‰ÏÎ³Î¿Ï‚ (georgos) meaning "farmer, earthworker", itself derived from the elements Î³Î· (ge) "earth" and ÎµÏÎ³Î¿Î½ (ergon) "work".

Alice - Short form of the Old French Adelais, itself a short form of Adalheidis - Adelaide - From the Germanic name Adalheidis which was composed of the elements adal "noble" and heid "kind, sort, type".

Johnathan - From the Hebrew name ×™Ö°×”×•Ö¹× Ö¸×ªÖ¸×Ÿ (Yehonatan) (contracted to ×™×•Ö¹× Ö¸×ªÖ¸×Ÿ (Yonatan)) meaning "YAHWEH has given".

William - From the Germanic name Wilhelm, which was composed of the elements wil "will, desire" and helm "helmet, protection".

Perhaps the Johns, Allisons, and Bills of the world should be told that their names are just the result of excessive collections of desirable traits. The truth is that there are many ways furs come up with the names they do, and not all of them are the obvious animal-fursona stereotype that you suggest. On this page of the thread alone we have "Sereryth", "Hakar", "Arshes Nei", "K-Red", "turbinedivinity", "Rostam The Grey", and "TeeGee". All of these break your stereotype.

And in the end, a name only has to please one person anyway.


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## imnohbody (Jan 28, 2007)

I'm guessing kitetsu is more referring to the  not-uncommon thing of putting things like "fox", "lion", and so forth in their name.

(Frankly, I think it's a little silly, but then again so is furry, so it's not a big deal to me.  )


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## Calbeck (Jan 28, 2007)

blueroo said:
			
		

> Telling other people to "show a little class" and "don't blare your sex live to the press" is in fact asking them to change their behaviors.



So is telling them not to dance around in the main lobby of the Knott's Berry Farm Hotel wearing nothing but a Dixie cup and bunny ears.  Yet, every furcon created in the last decade has come up with rules to prevent people from doing such things.   Were they wrong to do so?



> Again, what right do you have to regulate other people's behavior for your own personal desires?



Because your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.  I notice you seem to have no problem with the fact that people putting their "personal desires" in the public spotlight is what fueled the fandom's poor public image in the first place.

Or, to step back and use an analogy, if Trek fandom was known for nothing more than people dressing in Klingon outfits and banging each other all day long --- on the strength of a small but vocal minority of Trekkies who actually did this --- the rest of Trek fandom would have every right to ask them to tone it down, and if that failed, to denounce them publically.



			
				Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> You act like the problem is singular to furries, many hobbies are flamed.



The issue isn't whether or not furfandom is flamed, because as you say, every fandom gets flamed to some extent.  The issue is about people whose inconsiderate and selfish behavior lets the fandom in for _more_ than its share of abuse.  On basis of what I've seen across the Internet, probably at least two-thirds of people who know anything about furry fandom have a negative opinion about it.  In most cases, those opinions were formed after viewing a single piece of hardcore furry pornography.  

Hell, I remember when I was still getting into furfandom, and someone threw a sketchbook in my face full of horse porn drawn by Terrie Smith.  That person found out, you see, that I like horses, so it occurred to him that I would AUTOMATICALLY like horse porn.  THEN he began regaling me with a song he called "He's a Well-Hung Plow Boy", about a human raping draft animals.

The only reason I didn't run screaming from the fandom is because I'd been in it long enough to know there was plenty of other stuff to enjoy.  How should we expect a complete newcomer to act when presented with foxtaurs hung like torpedo bombers, unless they were already entering the fandom expressly to find just exactly that kind of material?

The end result is that the fandom suffers for the loss of members it WOULD have had, whose interests remain in the G- through R-rated spectrum.  Artists who want to draw and display non-porn material get discouraged for lack of interest, because the people who WOULD be interested have been scared off by the porn fanatics.  And people who work in art fields end up leaving the fandom because the word "furry" has become a death sentence in many professional circles.

And when any of these facts are trotted out, the people who _want_ to believe that nothing's wrong just throw a few epithets around, demonize the people trying to make their points, claim that the complainers are "just paranoid", and otherwise contribute nothing to the debate but attempts to derail it.

Not that I expect to change any of this with a few pointed posts, but intellectual integrity (i.e., refusing to bury my head in the sand) pretty much demanded that I make the point.


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## dave hyena (Jan 28, 2007)

Calbeck said:
			
		

> Or, to step back and use an analogy, if Trek fandom was known for nothing more than people dressing in Klingon outfits and banging each other all day long --- on the strength of a small but vocal minority of Trekkies who actually did this --- the rest of Trek fandom would have every right to ask them to tone it down, and if that failed, to denounce them publically.



Whereupon everyone who saw the invective would go: "Wow, I never knew that star trek fandom is all about banging in klingon outfits".

A whole new audience would discover that star trek fandom is about banging in klingon suits and nothing else and the people who originated the denounciation would have shot themselves in the foot by giving far more attention to the adult elements that it would have ever got by itself. :?


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## Calbeck (Jan 28, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> Whereupon everyone who saw the invective would go: "Wow, I never knew that star trek fandom is all about banging in klingon outfits".



Logical disconnect: why should anyone conclude that a given fandom IS "all about X" when there are people standing up and publically saying that the fandom is NOT "all about X"?

The very fact that someone is lodging the complaint indicates that there is in fact something other than X available.

Nor is it sensible to argue that complaining about X does the fandom any more of a disservice than actually publishing X in a public venue, especially when the publications far outnumber the complaints.  It's like blaming the one guy who blows a pass for losing the basketball game, when most of the rest of the team was utterly unable to stay in bounds in the first place.  Not to mention, again, that you still have to assume that someone who sees the complaint is going to automatically leap to the wrong conclusion in order to argue that the complaint is doing any damage at all.

And given that, as I said before, no one's ever done a negative article on furfandom on basis of anyone's complaints about X, you don't really have a leg to stand on --- only a pet theory which doesn't hold water under logical scrutiny.


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## Sylvine (Jan 28, 2007)

Calbeck - let me begin by saying that from what I read already from You, Your future posts will definately be worth reading. Nice, comprehensive, well made points. 

Now then. The problem here is that apparently, the majority of the fandom likes it as it is, or is ready to at least accept it as what it became. The, let's say, Yiff-happy part of the fandom is a significant part of it. In Your example, people will conclude the fandom is "all about X" because there are lots of fans claiming so, and it's more interesting than the boring, tame fans. 

 I doubt they'll consider a little bit more decency out of goodwill. Hence, You can't change them, and You also can't separate Yourself from them enough - to the "outsiders", furries are furries. It's simplistic, it's idiotic, it's like assuming Comedy is the same as Pornography, but it happens. So what we'd get by trying to more or less re-educate a significant part of the fandom is internal pressure and an extrenal chorous of "lol, furries!" - apart from it, nothing changes. 

I'm still for calm explanations towards people who don't have a clue about the fandom and make wild assumptions, and those explainations should contain a hint about the Yiff-loving part of it. Not mentioning an "ugly" ( in this context ) side of a matter won't help, since this side is availble to anyone if he bothers to look for it. Hell, just type in "furry art" into Yahoo image search with Your filters off - I didn't count, but out of 20 images on the first page, at least 12 are "Yiffy". So what You can do is say "Yes, there are people interested in "Yiff", but it's just as some people are interested in "normal" porn - that doesn't make humans freaks, does it?". There You go, that simple sentence caused a few people to think twice already. 

But attempts to "fix" the furry community? Hardly. There are people who'll always like adult and extreme content, and, for all I care, they have every right to do so.  

Ah... pardon me if I typed nonsense, or possibly adressed an Issue that has been brought up by a different person alltogether. It's late here, and I'm getting tired. 

~Sylv


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## dave hyena (Jan 28, 2007)

Calbeck said:
			
		

> why should anyone conclude that a given fandom IS "all about X" when there are people standing up and publically saying that the fandom is NOT "all about X"?



Why, because there are a whole bunch of people who are screaming about and pointing to the adult elements and thus bringing them to everyones attention. If there is all this fuss and bother over the adult elements, they must be a pretty significent part of the fandom! Furthermore, for some people, their first encounter with the fandom will be through this fuss and bother, and therefore their first encounter will be with the adult elements thereby.

It is a terrible irony that, in my opinion, the people who were most guilty of shoving the adult elements of the fandom in peoples faces and bringing it to the forefront were the burned furs.


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## blueroo (Jan 28, 2007)

Calbeck said:
			
		

> blueroo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Knox Berry Farm is not a public space. It is private property and what is allowed there is dictated by their rules. If security asks you to stop, that is their prerogative.



> > Again, what right do you have to regulate other people's behavior for your own personal desires?
> 
> 
> 
> Because your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.  I notice you seem to have no problem with the fact that people putting their "personal desires" in the public spotlight is what fueled the fandom's poor public image in the first place.



Firstly, nobody is putting a fist to your face. This claim is even more ridiculous when you step back to realize that you, Calbeck, _choose_ to associate with this fandom.

I also take issue with your assumption that the fandom has such a poor public image. Please demonstrate that this is true to such a degree that it requires adjustment of anyone's behavior. We hear lots of stories about people coming out or being found out and getting flak for being furry, but we never hear the stories of people who tell friends, family, coworkers, and others, and receive absolutely no flak whatsoever.



> Or, to step back and use an analogy, if Trek fandom was known for nothing more than people dressing in Klingon outfits and banging each other all day long --- on the strength of a small but vocal minority of Trekkies who actually did this --- the rest of Trek fandom would have every right to ask them to tone it down, and if that failed, to denounce them publically.



This is a similar situation, not an analogy. It has the exact same problem your "furries must be corrected" argument does. You have not established why anyone deserves the right to redirect the behavior of others for personal reasons.



> The only reason I didn't run screaming from the fandom is because I'd been in it long enough to know there was plenty of other stuff to enjoy.  How should we expect a complete newcomer to act when presented with foxtaurs hung like torpedo bombers, unless they were already entering the fandom expressly to find just exactly that kind of material?
> 
> The end result is that the fandom suffers for the loss of members it WOULD have had, whose interests remain in the G- through R-rated spectrum.  Artists who want to draw and display non-porn material get discouraged for lack of interest, because the people who WOULD be interested have been scared off by the porn fanatics.  And people who work in art fields end up leaving the fandom because the word "furry" has become a death sentence in many professional circles.
> 
> ...



This argument would be far more interesting and useful if you could demonstrate what gives you the right to tell other people what to do. So far you have tried to say that the fandom needs a better image or there will be no new members who are not porn fiends, the fandom is hitting you in the nose, the fandom will receive more abuse than it deserves, and you don't feel comfortable telling your family and friends about your hobby for fear of their judgement. You've made a few pointed posts, but the intellectual content has been questionable at best.

You have thus far failed to justify, in any logical or philosophical terms, your right to demand that thousands of people change their behavior. The closest you've achieved is a sort of moral imperative to protect furry from itself. The problem with that is, in these days when prohibition crumbled under its own lack of intelligent justification, when racism not only doesn't make sense but is counter-productive, when sex has been proven to be a a safe and beneficial activity when practiced wisely, and when homosexuality is quite obviously not harmful to families or society, moral imperatives that make sense are in short demand.

In the end, you should really ask yourself what is driving you to try and make this change. Is it really "for furry's own good" that you want people to change? Or is it because you fear the outcome if they do not?


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## Hakar (Jan 29, 2007)

"How should we expect a complete newcomer to act when presented with foxtaurs hung like torpedo bombers, unless they were already entering the fandom expressly to find just exactly that kind of material?"

Just out of curiosity, and unless you picked something more or less at random, but what is your problem with foxtaurs?


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## shy (Jan 29, 2007)

Holy shit 8 pages.


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## lolcox (Jan 29, 2007)

Hakar said:
			
		

> "How should we expect a complete newcomer to act when presented with foxtaurs hung like torpedo bombers, unless they were already entering the fandom expressly to find just exactly that kind of material?"
> 
> Just out of curiosity, and unless you picked something more or less at random, but what is your problem with foxtaurs?



Actually, I do have a problem with the excessive hypertrophia, among other things within the fandom, and it's not just Foxtaurs that're guilty of this.
Whatever happened to seven inches being enough or slightly more than enough? (This assumes that the furry in question is height proportionate, thus 7" would be fine at 5'6", and 14" would be fine at 11', and so on.)
Being *hung like a horse* is stupid if you can't use all of it in, say, that cute little mouse gal you hooked up with, right? (lol.)

I generally won't say much about it, other than making direct fun of an issue I take issue with in some manner (those who know me well have seen a byproduct of my humor-making).

It's things like this fandom that make me go "... buh?" sometimes.


Moving back to the alpha point of the thread for a moment:
Burned Furs? :roll:

Every fandom has its dark points, which those who stay around in it either simply ignore, join in with, makes jokes on, or cry about.
This looks more like one of those 'cry abouts', which only _serves to draw more attention to the things this person wants to sweep under the carpet_!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I didn't say anything; I don't know anything; These're just my thoughts.

kool pic,
_ ~ T. N. O_


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 29, 2007)

Calbeck said:
			
		

> Arshes Nei said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again on the basis of the internet is a VERY POOR example. Internet is full of bad math, which you're using. Observational behavior from your mind does not make it the truth, please stop using it as the basis of a solid argument.


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## Xax (Jan 29, 2007)

What's the quote?

"If the farmers association sent out press releases informing me that 99% of farmers didn't jerk off over their vegetables, REALLY HONEST WE MEAN IT, I'd sure start inspecting my broccoflower a bit more closely."


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## Hakar (Jan 29, 2007)

lolcox said:
			
		

> Hakar said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes off course, but isn't the same true with human porn? Isn't 'bigger is better' almost a law?
The difference is that with drawn characters on the internet, it's easier to give yourself a Big 'Un.


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## lolcox (Jan 29, 2007)

Hakar said:
			
		

> lolcox said:
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You mean humans can do porn?
I thought it was naked comedy and B-Movie rejects trying to get in a new light (See: "Pirates").



Actually, "Bigger is Better" has its circle, as does the amateur works (which I tend to favor more), which tend to be more natural.


Also, sure, on the internet, you can give yourself a 19" dong, but that just reeks of overcompensation in its purest form. Just go double -- at least you can just buy a strap on from the adult store to make the transition to real life.


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## EternalUndeath (Jan 29, 2007)

wut said:
			
		

> > This is becoming embarrassing, furs need to start standing up again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



alright, wow. My internet service goes down for 5 days and already you guys have 8 pages of this garbage. I certainly do post some controversial topics, don't I? I don't have time to read all of this, so I'm just going to say to wut...

*WHAT!?!?! ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME?!?!?! THE ENTIRE POINT i'M TRYING TO MAKE HERE IS THAT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO KEEP IT BEHIND A CLOSED DOOR!!! BEING A FURRY DOES NOT MAKE YOU A PLUSHOPHILE OR CHILD MOLESTER, IT MEANS YOU HAVE A CERTAIN TASTE IN ART! [size=xx-large]AND BEING IN IT FOR THE ART IS SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF!!! a FUR SHOULD NOT BE OSTRASIZED FOR TASTE IN ART, THAT IS WRONG, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!![/size][size=medium]*

And as to the more recent posts, WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING???? I'm talking about people being persecuted and you guys are smutting up my thread with insanely hung fox-taurs? What the hell is wrong with you! Get back on topic![/size]

The floor is now open for rebuttals...


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## redguardian (Jan 29, 2007)

OMG WILL ALL OF YA'LL JUST STOP X_x
ITS BEEN 6 DAYS.
WHAT EVER IS THE NAME OF THE PERSON THAT STARTED, I'M SORRY THAT THAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU, BUT WHY IS EVERYONE STILL FIGHTING ABOUT IT?! this topic should have been locked when it turned into a flame war.

anyway i agree that the humans have no right to disgrace our furry name, and i believe being a fur is not by a chose, i have a animal personality, and i am proud of it, lots of people know i'm a fur and they have no problem with it, nor do they make fun of me, why? cause they know i am not a pervert nor a beastilitist, and that they listened when i explain the fandom to them...

the problem will never stop,
this matter has momentarily ended

just let it go, and stop flaming people >=O


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## InvaderPichu (Jan 29, 2007)

redguardian said:
			
		

> anyway i agree that the humans have no right to disgrace our furry name,



You're a human.


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## redguardian (Jan 29, 2007)

yup and ur point?
and human as in people who aren't fur =P


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 29, 2007)

What flame war? Are you guys that friggen sensitive? Or are all of you just insane? I see some topical discussion, some humorous stuff, and hardly anything that constitutes as a *flame war*. The only people who are looking like they're flaming are ironically the people putting things in bold, and caps. So you know, take your own advice.


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## redguardian (Jan 29, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> What flame war? Are you guys that friggen sensitive? Or are all of you just insane? I see some topical discussion, some humorous stuff, and hardly anything that constitutes as a *flame war*. The only people who are looking like they're flaming are ironically the people putting things in bold, and caps. So you know, take your own advice.


well this matter is still a tad old to be fighting about eh?
its just getting anoying really...
thanks i will :3


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## Sylvine (Jan 29, 2007)

EternalUndeath said:
			
		

> *snipped the eye-offending post*



Way to go. If You actually _would_ take the time to read the replies to _Your own thread_, You would notice that the ones bringing up the foxtaur thingie were argumenting _in Your favor_. You saw part of a practical example to demonstrate a point, and You jump at people throats. Wow! And You plead for, what, other people NOT jumping to conclusions regarding certain things.... furriness, for example? 

Being a furry does not mean "You have a certain taste in Art". There's Your problem. There is no general definition of the term "furry". For You, it's about art. For others, roleplay. For YET others, ***king their brains out in Fursuits. 

Your reply here... really _will not_ encurage people to consider Your case seriously.

~Sylv


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 29, 2007)

redguardian said:
			
		

> well this matter is still a tad old to be fighting about eh?



It's called a discussion, and I find it fascinating actually, you don't even HAVE to click on this thread.


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## redguardian (Jan 29, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> redguardian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol, meh i got multiple windows open in different places =P ^^


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## Calbeck (Jan 29, 2007)

Sylvine said:
			
		

> I doubt they'll consider a little bit more decency out of goodwill. Hence, You can't change them, and You also can't separate Yourself from them enough - to the "outsiders", furries are furries. It's simplistic, it's idiotic, it's like assuming Comedy is the same as Pornography, but it happens. So what we'd get by trying to more or less re-educate a significant part of the fandom is internal pressure and an extrenal chorous of "lol, furries!" - apart from it, nothing changes.



Oh, I know.  Believe me, I have no illusions about trying to change anything.  Mainly I only spoke up because there are people running around passing off illogical theories and ancient myth as though it were incorruptible facts.  I don't like to watch people delude themselves: death of the intellect is one of the most hideous things humanity has ever managed to inflict upon itself.  

Mind you, I don't think I'm _always_ right, but one thing's an incontrovertible fact of reality: opinion doesn't trump facts.  The sky doesn't become green if someone wants to believe it is, the moon is not made of green cheese, Burned Furs were not about "driving out the sinners", and talking about a problem is not the same as contributing to it.



> But attempts to "fix" the furry community?



Nah.  What's left to fix?  Most of the comics which the fandom was founded on are dead for lack of interest.  Most of the people who created those comics want nothing to do with the fandom.  And most of the people the fandom attracts, in a self-reinforcing cycle, are folks who want to draw and circulate porn.  And as with the rest of humanity, there will always be a certain percentage who have no class, no consideration for others, and who never think about the consequences of their actions.

Hell, we see them in traffic every day, and usually curse them while they cut us off at high speed, talking on their SUV's mobile phone while reaching back to slap their rambunctious children.


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## Calbeck (Jan 29, 2007)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> Why, because there are a whole bunch of people who are screaming



Ah yes, the classic debate tactic of overstating your opponent's actions.  No one has been screaming here.  For that matter, most of the screaming which went on in the original "debates" on AFF were from the anti-BF side of the aisle, with wild accusations ranging from religious persecution to claims that Eric Blumrich was both a Communist and a Nazi.  And of course, invoking Godwin's Law resulted in yet another round of screaming accusations.  There were certainly BFs who lost their temper, or who didn't have one to begin with, but they were far outnumbered in that regard by their opposition.



> thus bringing them (the adult elements) to everyones attention.



1) Logical disconnect, again: Burned Fur was formed in reaction to the fact that various socially embarrassing segments of the fandom had already made themselves known in the general media, to literally millions of people.  You can't bring something to someone's attention if they already know.  Not to mention that BFs did not go to the press to complain; they kept their commentary to furry venues, directed to furries.  As noted before, the only reference to Burned Fur in any press regarding the fandom was a direct result of lifestyle proponents making various accusations about us to the press.  In fact, because these statements were demonstrably false, the author of the article had to publically declare retractions when presented with the facts.

2) The "adult elements" were not the issue.  Burned Fur was never anti-porn.  The extremism of some types of porn, and the grafting of various fetishes onto the fandom by persons who never had any other interest in furries, was the issue.  In point of fact, BFs were calling for moderation, the application of common sense, and the use of a little class.  As already noted in this thread, just asking for "a little class" has been opposed on grounds that asking someone to change their behavior, even a little bit, and out of sheer courtesy, is somehow wrong.



> Furthermore, for some people, their first encounter with the fandom will be through this fuss and bother



Not according to what polling data exists.  Certainly there may be a handful who stumbled across one debate or another.  But the fact is that most of the furries who founded, developed, and expanded the fandom --- including myself --- were drawn in by furry comics.  Others, by animation.  And, over the course of the last decade, by the lure of free, readily available no-holds-barred sex.

Which is rather like watching a comic book shop slowly devolve into an adult bookstore.



> It is a terrible irony that, in my opinion, the people who were most guilty of shoving the adult elements of the fandom in peoples faces and bringing it to the forefront were the burned furs.



Nope. Sorry, but as anyone who actually DID get porn shoved in their faces will tell you, Burned Fur had nothing to do with it.  At this point, you're merely disseminating disinformation, and you have nothing to base it on to begin with --- except what you want to believe.

It is in fact a terrible irony that I predicted speaking up on this subject would likely result in someone devolving their argument to the point of demonization --- and here you have done precisely that.


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## Calbeck (Jan 29, 2007)

Arshes Nei said:
			
		

> Again on the basis of the internet is a VERY POOR example. Internet is full of bad math, which you're using.



1) If you believe my statement is "full of bad math", kindly show how rather than make blanket statements of opinion-as-fact.  I already qualified my statement by saying that it WAS based on personal observation.  However, in the complete absence of other data, that's what's available.  If you want to debate its veracity, that's something else entirely.

2) Universalist statements are usually incorrect.  Suggesting that merely because something appears on or is derived from the Internet, that it must be inaccurate, is not supported by reality.

3) The fact that there are innumerable online testimonials by individuals who describe their loathing for furries on basis of the more radical components of the sexual aspect does in fact amount to limited confirmation of the theory you are so quick to dismiss.  These people aren't merely complaining about a fox and wolf getting it on; they're complaining about the extreme fetishes such as hermaphrodites and penile nipples.



> Observational behavior from your mind does not make it the truth, please stop using it as the basis of a solid argument.



If it were from my mind, and not from thousands of people making statements in protest of what they consider to be material equal to or worse than goatse, you'd have a point.  We're not even talking about PoE here: we're talking about CSI fansites and other people who would never have heard of us except that the public excesses of the fandom have now spilled over into mainstream media.


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## quark (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm loving how a calm, rational discussion (albiet with some name calling that got squashed pretty quick) equates to 'OMG BIG FIGHT FLAME WAR OH THE HUMANITY!' in some peoples eyes. Like Arshes said, methinks some people are a little too sensitive.
Oh, and Eternalundeth, no one was flaming you.  In fact, the only flaming I've seen in this discussion so far was your post.  You know, the one written in caps lock, with swearing, in large, bolded font.  Cause you know, that's a great way to get people to listen to your point of view, and maybe take your side.  Yep, nothing gets people to listen to you better than throwing a tantrum like a spazzy 4 year old whose mother won't buy him a candy bar from the grocery store.
Oh, by the way, weren't you the one who wanted Toei animations to produce a thirty minute pornographic cartoon of two male dragons for you?  I don't think the Burned Fur movement would look too kindly on that.


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## Calbeck (Jan 29, 2007)

Now, I've said my piece.  And it's already become clear that I'm mainly talking to people who made up their minds long ago.  All I came into this discussion for was to correct myths --- especially myths that bash fellow furries --- and to set the record straight.

I've been in this fandom since the '80s.  I'm one of the LAST members of this fandom who's been around this long.  I grew a much tougher hide to do so than most of my critics will probably believe I should get credit for.  I don't expect to CHANGE a damn thing about the fandom; it will collapse or muddle on as-is.  As it stands, its members are more numerous, but produce less variety, than a decade ago.

And I shouldn't be surprised to see that asking for a little class and a little consideration has the same effect now that it did in 1996 --- instantaneous negative reactions amounting to a fear of censorship, combined with a desire to divert blame, and the presentation of opinion-as-fact in opposition to actual facts.  As it stands, one of my opponents has already stooped to demonization.

Following historical example, I expect that continuing this "debate" will lead to nothing more or less than pure flamewar in three or fewer cycles as my opposition becomes angrier over the simple fact that I don't shut up and go away.

So, I'm shutting up and going away.  People with fingers in their ears aren't worth talking to.


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## lolcox (Jan 29, 2007)

[align=right]I think that at this point, maybe this thread should be locked. The signal to noise ratio wasn't that fabulous to begin with, and a number of this thread's participants could use some enforced FAFE time.[/align]

_ ~ T. N. Omshiirion_


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 29, 2007)

Actually, I was kinda hoping for a furry silhouette and the Alfred Hitchock theme to go with this thread. I just found it ironic that the people who thought it was a flame war, were the instigators of it


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## Icarus (Jan 29, 2007)

Man...last time I tried to stand up I got hit with a stick and the weilder said, "Bad Dragon, Bad!"


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## Kittiara (Jan 29, 2007)

I keep my furry life out of my real life... to an extent.  I have the reputation of drawing animal people at school, for instance. XD

I've never been bashed for being furry, neither on nor offline.  Either I'm doing something right, or I'm doing something wrong. ;3


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## wut (Jan 29, 2007)

Kittiara said:
			
		

> I keep my furry life out of my real life... to an extent.  I have the reputation of drawing animal people at school, for instance. XD
> 
> I've never been bashed for being furry, neither on nor offline.  Either I'm doing something right, or I'm doing something wrong. ;3



Congratulations, you're one of the few who get it.


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## EternalUndeath (Jan 30, 2007)

quark said:
			
		

> I'm loving how a calm, rational discussion (albiet with some name calling that got squashed pretty quick) equates to 'OMG BIG FIGHT FLAME WAR OH THE HUMANITY!' in some peoples eyes. Like Arshes said, methinks some people are a little too sensitive.
> Oh, and Eternalundeth, no one was flaming you.Â Â In fact, the only flaming I've seen in this discussion so far was your post.Â Â You know, the one written in caps lock, with swearing, in large, bolded font.Â Â Cause you know, that's a great way to get people to listen to your point of view, and maybe take your side.Â Â Yep, nothing gets people to listen to you better than throwing a tantrum like a spazzy 4 year old whose mother won't buy him a candy bar from the grocery store.
> Oh, by the way, weren't you the one who wanted Toei animations to produce a thirty minute pornographic cartoon of two male dragons for you?Â Â I don't think the Burned Fur movement would look too kindly on that.



...wow, to quote Stewie from family guy, "ooh, you're so observant, aren't you. Are you a detective?"
     No. I was not asking for a M/M dragon video for myself. I wanted an animation of a story series written by an associate of mine named Sirblood (or, for those of you in the know, Quagsir Bloodwarth) which was hetero. Putting aside the fact that it was yiff, it was an amazing piece of literature. The sections with Firon and Nidia were particularly poignant [sp?]. Also, that is beside the point.
     And yes, very good, you've spotted my technique for getting people to agree with me. It may be a bit crude, but it was none the less effective, don't you agree? Also, I never said anyone was flaming me _or_ that this had turned into a flame war, those were other people. If you'd taken th time to check, you'd see that this is, in fact, only my third post on this thread despite the fact that I started it. So please, before you are say something rude, do your homework. It helps.


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## EternalUndeath (Jan 30, 2007)

Oh, and Kittiara, I have that commission on your boyfriend from that 'Draw the person above you' thread, but it refuses to load. Sorry.


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## kitetsu (Jan 30, 2007)

Take a look at yourself in the mirror with this post. This is what a newcoming, hotheaded, hardgunning suicide bomber would say in his last speech before getting ass-ass-inated by the almighty bullet of the American army.

What are you trying to say with this? Who is more observant here?

*Don't divert the fucking subject.*


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 30, 2007)

EternalUndeath said:
			
		

> And yes, very good, you've spotted my technique for getting people to agree with me. It may be a bit crude, but it was none the less effective, don't you agree? Also, I never said anyone was flaming me _or_ that this had turned into a flame war, those were other people. If you'd taken th time to check, you'd see that this is, in fact, only my third post on this thread despite the fact that I started it. So please, before you are say something rude, do your homework. It helps.



This reply FAILS on so many levels. There wasn't the masses coming in to come and agree with you. But it's ok to be blind. *pat pat* do you feel better now?

Do your homework.


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## Surgat (Jan 30, 2007)

EternalUndeath said:
			
		

> And yes, very good, you've spotted my technique for getting people to agree with me. It may be a bit crude, but it was none the less effective, don't you agree?



Almost every post I've seen from you (including your recent temper-tantrum) has only persuaded me into thinking you're an ignoramus.  

Your ignorance here is correctable though, just like your ignorance with world religions. If you want to write and argue well, and not just UNLEASH CAPSLOCK FURY, the easiest and probably most effective thing you could do is to take a composition/communications class or two and an intro to logic course. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/


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## verix (Jan 30, 2007)

Kittiara said:
			
		

> I've never been bashed for being furry, neither on nor offline.  Either I'm doing something right, or I'm doing something wrong. ;3


you are doing something wrong because being bashed is a furry tradition going as far back as the 1970s!


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## TikiTorch (Jan 31, 2007)

True, so very true.


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## Xax (Feb 1, 2007)

No, I am not content to just let this thread die!

uh.

Okay, yeah, sure if you go out of your way to spray alternative-lifestyles all over your average person, they are probably going to react badly. But hey, they _shouldn't_, because in most cases that's close-minded and just generally showing a lack of comprehension tools, so feel free to do it ALL THE TIME and then rant at them about how they are jerks. Sure, it's not the most _productive_ way of expressing yourself and/or clarifying your subculture-of-choice's mental market share, but it's totally legitimate nevertheless, so go ahead.

People in real life tend not to _realize_ I am everything I am online (yaoi fan, furry, hacker, general agressive anti-everything politico, whatever) but if it comes up in a conversation I don't really hesitate to explain that yeah, I am X and BLAH BLAH BLAH. Hence, pretty much all of my friends know all my deep dark internet secrets, (sometimes to my mortification,) because man, what's the point in having to keep basic personality* traits secret? It seems like the kind of thing that would just make a person repressed and bitter.

I'm not really _ashamed_ to be anything I am, and I really don't think anyone _should_ be, (yes, even in cases involving illegal things such as beastality and pedophilia. They should just be prevented from indulging their fetishes. ever.) and this whole SHUT UP DON'T CAUSE DRAMA (on the furries side) or SHUT UP NO ONE WANTS TO KNOW (on the EVIL TROLLS side) seems equally ridiculous. 'Drama' in and of itself isn't really something I see as a problem, as it can be used as a learning tool on every side. And yeah, people generally don't want to realize that nice polite guy (or wacky goth chick, or whatever you find people identifying you as) is actually not, in fact, who they thought they were, but I'd say people have an _obligation_ to confront the things in the world they don't like or can't accept, so that they can learn to, in the very least, to DEAL WITH IT.

Basically, what I am saying here is WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM?

*I realize 'furry' is not a basic personality trait. But maybe "person-with-habits-of-fixation + interest-in-transhumanism + interest-in-anthropomorphicism(in-the-_literal_-sense" is. OR COULD BE. WHATEVER INTERNET, YOU BE THE JUDGE. *YOU BE THE JUDGE.*


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## Umbreona (Feb 3, 2007)

All I got to say is that I am furry, I love sex, and anyone who has a problem with that is just jealous. I never try to hide it, but then I have NEVER cared what everyone else thought. Everyone else is usually STUPID.


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## soundhound (Feb 3, 2007)

Umbreona said:
			
		

> All I got to say is that I am furry, I love sex, and anyone who has a problem with that is just jealous. I never try to hide it, but then I have NEVER cared what everyone else thought. Everyone else is usually STUPID.



everyone loves sex. what the heck does that have to do with anything???


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## RailRide (Feb 4, 2007)

Not caring what other think of you is all well and good. What causes anxiety and misery is when these folks, either by inclusion or omission, end up speaking for people who _don't_ have the luxury of being able to ignore others' opinion of them.

PCJ, who watched it all unfold on the newsgroups and websites.

Trivia: Burned Fur happened by accident


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## Greyblade (Feb 4, 2007)

Bottom line; be judged for what you do.  If you don't like the sex factor of the fandom, don't buy into it, and people will realize you're different.
Those who don't aren't worth it.


Quite frankly, the percentage of furries into sex and crap is the same percentage of normal people into sex and shit.  The only difference is that there's an unfamiliar element at work for them.  People never like things they can't understand.

So I stop bothering.


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## Alchera (Feb 4, 2007)

EternalUndeath said:
			
		

> Very recently, I started a research paper on the various steryotypes being applied to the furry fandom and how most of them are false (i.e., we are _not_ all perverts and child molesters) and that the heart and meaning of being a "furry" is just a form of art appreciation, like being fond of cubism or surrealism or something. My professor immediately told me that if I submited any such thing, it would result in an instant failure, and on the way out of the room I was called a "perv" and a "freak" among other things (which can't be written here).
> I admitt it may have been fairly stupid to announce a research paper on such a personal topic, but the fact that several of my "friends" now avoid me like the plague is disgraceful not only to me, but to every self-respecting furry alive. The fandom's name, while improved slightly by the BurnedFur movement, is still mud with the general populous. This needs to be addressed *NOW*!
> I am calling for nothing less than a revival of the Burned Furs! If you are interested in the movement, their original website can still be found here. Please feel free to E-Mail me at my gmail address with your personal burn story, I'm making a website for BurnedFurRevived soon, and would love to be able to post your stories (anonymously, of course).
> Please, help me speak out [size=x-large]today[/size].
> (also, please don't flame this thread, I've had enough flaming in real life already)



I'm not flaming you, but making a mass group - Sure, it may do some good, but it will also draw notoriety and you will be slapped by those who hate as nothing more than complainers. Let's stop right there.

You should focus on speaking for yourself instead of speaking for others who may disagree with your views. I, for one, would not support any group claiming to be a better representative of this Community. (I absolutely refuse to call it a Fandom.)Â Â I speak for myself and if people don't like it, then they don't. I haven't relied on groups to defend something I'm involved with, and I won't start now. Your insecurities, while given sympathy and empathy by others, are still something you, personally, must deal with instead of rallying. Of course, a collective Burned Fur might be, but Burned Fur does not speak for the entire community.

And yes, I know I might speak against extremists within, and agree with your case that the persecution (I refuse to call it "fursecution" because that's just childish. Persecution is Persecution.) needs to stop, but I, like others, prefer to speak for ourselves instead of having someone else speak for us. As someone said earlier, let this thread die. If people can't open up and see things through your eyes, then they are not worth your time. No matter how hard you try, the media conglomerates like MTV will have more power than you do unless you gain that kind of power yourself, and even then it wouldn't restrict their media "press freedom."


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## iller (Feb 7, 2007)

Can anyone explain to me why the OP opens with "we should fight back" and then immediately went the opposite direction by suggesting the Resurrection of BF?

I was "on the front lines" during that time and I recall with great detail just how little they actually accomplished.  99% of it was McCarthyism, the other 1% was basically Con-Staff _occasionally_ preventing Muckraking Journalists from entering a Con.  ...Obviously it didn't stop them from talking to 'teh freaks' outside the event in the parking lots tho.


As an individual, you fight back against the people making up the lies, not the people who do weird stuff.  If the BF people had spent their time fundraising for Defamation Defense, Slander lawsuits, and Sexual Harassment charges against the people who were giving them shit in the first place; instead of spending all their time harassing everyone else in "furry", *they would have made real progress and would still be active today.*

In the OP's case, the real boogey men here is obviously the hostile and slanderous "mundane" Environment he lives in.  If you're going to fight back, then do it against the people who are holding you down and beating on you.


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