# Anti piracy goes to the next extreme



## ADF (May 28, 2008)

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/encryption-chip-will-end-piracy-open-markets-says-bushnell

Trusted Platform Module, basically a new chip on future motherboards to try and stop software piracy.

God knows what sort of headaches this will cause; it will of course get cracked like the hardware protection measures in HDCP, but to think they are going to this extreme now.


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## net-cat (May 28, 2008)

Well, until someone makes debuggers illegal...


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## RainsongGryphon (May 29, 2008)

They were able to crack the iPhone practically within a month of its release, this thing probably isn't gonna fare much better.

Besides, by announcing this as an "ultimate end to piracy", they're basically daring the greyhats to rip this thing apart... which they'll promptly do with smiles on their faces and cans of Mountain Dew in their hands.

Whoever came up with this thing should be smacked.  Hard.  At the very least, one should not require the use of a soldering gun just to make a motherboard work properly. >.>


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## ADF (May 29, 2008)

According to the TPM Wiki it already is vulnerable.

"However even where a TPM is used, the key is still vulnerable while a software application that has obtained it from the TPM is using it to perform encryption/decryption operations, as has been illustrated in the case of a cold boot attack."

More on cold boot attacks

So they know it has a weakness yet they are still pushing it into everyones motherboard regardless :roll:


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## Tycho (May 29, 2008)

Worse than the StarForce fiasco, you think?


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## Zero_Point (May 29, 2008)

Somehow I doubt this will go over well. When will developers realize that Steam is the way to go? Sure it's not fool-proof, but it works better than any other copy-protection as far as I can tell.


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## Grimfang (May 29, 2008)

Meh.. I doubt it'll last, but as long as I can keep pirating my music, I'm still happy.


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## WarMocK (May 29, 2008)

*YAWN!*
TPM ... the most useless waste of silicon on a mainboard I've ever seen. ^^
That thing is on every Intel-board since 2001, and already is cracked. That's why no business uses TPM, since it was mainly designed for business PCs to encrypt valuable data. And the chip itself is worthless without Palladium/NGSCB, it's only a passive system, so it won't do anything to your system if you don't want to. That kind of copy protection is doomed before it's even tested on the market. 
@Grimfang: Any music that you can hear can be copied (analog gap). You can't prevent piracy by encrypting it, only by offering it to fair conditions where pirating it is more annoying than paying a few bucks for a cd. If an artist sells his CDs for 5-7 EUR, interests in cracked CDs will fall rapidly (it won't go down to zero, there are always some morons that still would use copys even if they got money for taking a CD -.-). and YES, you can earn money with a 5 EUR-CD - if you don't sign a contract with one of those greedy major labels and sell the CDs yourself. ;-)


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## dietrc70 (May 29, 2008)

^^

Very true.  DVD sales are doing well in the US, because it's a lot easier to pay $10-$20 for a DVD than it is to try to get a downloaded version to play on a TV.

I think a lot of copy-protection schemes are just snake-oil remedies.  The people selling them know they are worthless, but there's no shortage of media company executives who will waste company money on them anyway.


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## net-cat (May 29, 2008)

dietrc70 said:


> I think a lot of copy-protection schemes are just snake-oil remedies.  The people selling them know they are worthless, but there's no shortage of media company executives who will waste company money on them anyway.


I'm inclined to agree. The money, of course, is getting a contract to be a part of the standard. Want a DVD with "protection?" Get ready to pay up for CSS. Bluray? AACS and/or BD+. Even though all three of been broken to varying degrees, media companies are still willing to pony up the dough.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Copy protection is basically giving someone the safe and a key to the safe with a little note that says "please don't use this in a way inconsistent with its labeling."


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## WarMocK (May 29, 2008)

dietrc70 said:


> ^^
> Very true.  DVD sales are doing well in the US, because it's a lot easier to pay $10-$20 for a DVD than it is to try to get a downloaded version to play on a TV.


In Europe it's vice versa. A cracked DVD will more likely run with a player here than a DVD crippled with DRM. And then people wonder why sales are dropping so fast... 
I agree with net-cat: DRM is not an efficient copy protection but a waste of manpower, money, and a lot of nerves. They should get rid of that junk, start producing something that is worth buying again (come to think about movies like "Legend of Beowulf", I'm sorry I didn't throw that money into a trashcan -.-), and sell DVDs at a fair price (about 10 EUR would be ok imho).


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## Eevee (May 29, 2008)

"grr angry consumer I will stop breaking the law when you make it worth my while"

maybe if everyone stopped saying that, they'd stop trying to make it worth your while


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## WarMocK (May 29, 2008)

Dream on, Eevee. If you see now that the content indurstry tries to prohibit resseling a Cd you don't want anymore you see what kind of people are working there.


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## Kimmerset (May 29, 2008)

No piece of machinery can beat a nerd with too much time on his hands.


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## Wovstah (May 29, 2008)

What I'm thinking is - "this really is not a new concept".  I'm relating, in my mind, back when Nintendo put a special chip in the SNES and their games, a key, so companies could not make SNES games without permission (*coughhackwisdomtreehack*).  As shown in The Angry Video Game Nerd, a Christian company came up with a GameGenie-like cartridge which another game would fit into, bypassing the key system.

So, it's true:  People make a stronger lock, others make a stronger skeleton key.
​


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## Aurali (May 29, 2008)

I've had a TPM on my computer for three years.. it's not new..


WarMocK said:


> Dream on, Eevee. If you see now that the content indurstry tries to prohibit resseling a Cd you don't want anymore you see what kind of people are working there.


This is the reason Sony Bootkitted everyone >..>

EDIT:



Wovstah said:


> What I'm thinking is - "this really is not a new concept".  I'm relating, in my mind, back when Nintendo put a special chip in the SNES and their games, a key, so companies could not make SNES games without permission (*coughhackwisdomtreehack*).  As shown in The Angry Video Game Nerd, a Christian company came up with a GameGenie-like cartridge which another game would fit into, bypassing the key system.
> 
> So, it's true:  People make a stronger lock, others make a stronger skeleton key.
> ​



 heheh.. I remember that stuff.. it's not hard to mimic a Chip permissions system if you just buy the chip.. Okay. Pop quiz. Who was that christian company? and what was the chips name? 50 Points for the first to answer correctly :3


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## WarMocK (May 29, 2008)

Eli said:


> This is the reason Sony Bootkitted everyone >..>


and got sued for massive computer sabotage. Can't say that I feel sorry for them. }:->


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## Aurali (May 29, 2008)

I hate sony. (and their crappy PS3) but I hate pirates more >..> If you can afford something. buy it.. or rent it... at least support the company so they don't go bankrupt... and don't give me that "I'm just trying it, if it sucks then I just saved my money" BS... The most popular games are the ones that are pirated... and then no one ever turns around and actually BUYS the game..


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## WarMocK (May 29, 2008)

Eli said:


> If you can afford something. buy it.. or rent it... at least support the company so they don't go bankrupt


Yep. If you like it, support those who made it. And nobody can tell me he likes thousants of songs occupying 200 gigabytes on their harddrive. ;-)
But on the other hand, always try to take a look over the rim of your tea cup, and time and again, you will find something that will blow your mind. There's lots of good content that is completely free (I found a lot of good albums on Jamendo and Starfrosch ^^), and you can support them and donate. The last time I bought a CD was more than three years ago (a comedy Cd from Elmar Brand), since then, I got a lot of free content that now fills my mp3/ogg vorbis player. ^^


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## Aurali (May 29, 2008)

Those who use free content usually have alternative modes of getting money.. (IE furaffinity and ads)


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## WarMocK (May 29, 2008)

Eli said:


> Those who use free content usually have alternative modes of getting money.. (IE furaffinity and ads)


Not necessarily. Take a look at Brazil, for example. A lot of artists there earn their money with concerts and merchandising rather than selling CDs. It's the major label that became obsolete with the new possibilities of the internet. I just finished a review about a darkwave album published on Jamendo, which is produced by a small indie label. The label earns money with the concerts, merchandizing, customized content, etc ...
Just search for All:My:Faults and Split Seconds ;-)


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## dietrc70 (May 29, 2008)

Eli said:


> I hate sony. (and their crappy PS3) but I hate pirates more >..> If you can afford something. buy it.. or rent it... at least support the company so they don't go bankrupt... and don't give me that "I'm just trying it, if it sucks then I just saved my money" BS... The most popular games are the ones that are pirated... and then no one ever turns around and actually BUYS the game..


 
I have bought software that I "tried," first.  I feel bad if I don't support artists or developers whose works I use and like.  On the other hand, I think it is strange to expect me to pay for a CD I haven't listened to, or pay hundreds of dollars for software if I don't know if it will do what I need it to.

Fortunately, many software companies offer full-featured demos.  (Thanks to the Crysis demo, I was able to have some fun while learning that I probably didn't want to buy it.)

Also, technically piracy involves SELLING illegal copies.  I also hate piracy.  Sharing media without profit motive is often a violation of copyright law (and therefore illegal), but it is NOT piracy or theft.  The media companies are fond of bluring those distinctions.


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## Aurali (May 29, 2008)

Piracy has expanded in definition hun.



WarMocK said:


> Not necessarily. Take a look at Brazil, for example. A lot of artists there earn their money with concerts and merchandising rather than selling CDs. It's the major label that became obsolete with the new possibilities of the internet. I just finished a review about a darkwave album published on Jamendo, which is produced by a small indie label. The label earns money with the concerts, merchandizing, customized content, etc ...


 and technically.. that's alternative means :3


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## Sylvine (May 29, 2008)

Eli said:


> I hate sony. (and their crappy PS3) but I hate pirates more >..> *If you can afford something. buy it..* or rent it... at least support the company so they don't go bankrupt... and don't give me that "I'm just trying it, if it sucks then I just saved my money" BS... The most popular games are the ones that are pirated... and then no one ever turns around and actually BUYS the game..



Here's the crux. I can't afford it. And since I wouldn't be buying it anyway, I might as well download it, since that really is not hurting anyone. Don't give me the "if You couldn't download, You'd buy" - argument: My favourte games, the ones I still play, I also bought. Then again, as I don't have the money to shell out â‚¬50 on a game, I'll be looking for alternative sources: Second hand, most of the time. There is no profit for the company if I buy a used CD on ebay ( except, ofc, for ebay. They profit, all right ).

Bottom line: If I can afford something, and I want to have it, I'll pay for it. If I cannot, I'll either shrugg it off, or look for cheap alternatives. Second hand. Rent -> make an ISO. Or just download. 

I also don't see it as morally wrong, since my morals are rather Kant'esque. 

~Sylv


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## An Sionnach Rua (May 30, 2008)

I downloaded Frostwire months ago and it disappeared into the depths of my computer. And that's about as far as I've gotten with the whole piracy thing.


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## WarMocK (May 30, 2008)

Eli said:


> and technically.. that's alternative means :3


If you count selling CDs as the ONLY way for artists to earn money, you're right. But in this case I'd have a word with Robbie Williams, Metallica, Snoop Dog etc about how they earn most of their money. ;-)


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## Aurali (May 30, 2008)

You mean the exclusive endorsements and names on cereal boxes? :3



Sylvine said:


> <snip>
> 
> ~Sylv



as long as your not using someones work without giving their rightful retributions..


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## WarMocK (May 30, 2008)

Eli said:


> You mean the exclusive endorsements and names on cereal boxes? :3


YEAH!
Merchandizing the Spaceballs way!^^
Spaceballs - the shirt.
Spaceballs - the coloring book.
Spaceballs -the lunch-box.
Spaceballs - the breakfast cereal.
Spaceballs -the flamethrower. ... *wooooooooooooosh!* ... the kids love this one.
And last but not least, our little guy here, Spaceballs the doll.^^
"may the Schwartz be with you!"
.
.
 he's really cute ...


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## Ishnuvalok (May 30, 2008)

Haha, they're just asking for hackers to crack it as soon as possible. The hackers are always one step ahead ^^


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## indrora (May 30, 2008)

and another Bushnell quote: If Man can make it, Man can break it.

its pointless and this eeks of Clipper Chip (if you dont know what that is, google it.)
simpley... wreaks... i mean... i can smell it from mars. .>.


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## Aurali (May 31, 2008)

and here is another really retarded truth..

locks are only there to keep honest people honest.


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## yak (Jun 1, 2008)

If things follow this path in five years each of us is going to have neuron supercomputer cluster at homes, and it would be fairly normal - but 96% of all the power of that rig is going to go in "transparently" encrypting and decrypting the data it stores and uses. 

Word is, if it wasn't for corporate money grabbing schemes hampering hardware and software development, we'd be shaking hands with the aliens already. On their home planets.


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## lilEmber (Jun 1, 2008)

yak said:


> If things follow this path in five years each of us is going to have neuron supercomputer cluster at homes, and it would be fairly normal - but 96% of all the power of that rig is going to go in "transparently" encrypting and decrypting the data it stores and uses.
> 
> Word is, if it wasn't for corporate money grabbing schemes hampering hardware and software development, we'd be shaking hands with the aliens already. On their home planets.



You know thats true. o..o


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## DuncanFox (Jun 1, 2008)

Eli said:


> If you can afford something. buy it.. or rent it... at least support the company so they don't go bankrupt...



That's why my plan with Spore (since I hate EA and refuse to give them money) is to pirate the game, and mail a money order for $50 to Maxis along with an explanation.


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## Aurali (Jun 1, 2008)

why? EA would just get you either way.. Maxis IS EA at this point... it's just a title to convince people of quality.



yak said:


> If things follow this path in five years each of us is going to have neuron supercomputer cluster at homes, and it would be fairly normal - but 96% of all the power of that rig is going to go in "transparently" encrypting and decrypting the data it stores and uses.
> 
> Word is, if it wasn't for corporate money grabbing schemes hampering hardware and software development, we'd be shaking hands with the aliens already. On their home planets.



:3 I don't blame money gr*u*bbing organizations.. I blame money grubbing human beings in general.


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## TechnoMancer (Jun 2, 2008)

If it can be used.
It can be copied.


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## Lonely (Jun 3, 2008)

And the only way they didn't get their pants sued off is they were a "Christian" company and Nintendo thought it would be bad PR.  The same company (under a different name) _had_ been used and they got a new name, got some Christ, and took out the nudity of their game and rereleased it.


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## Nequ (Jun 5, 2008)

So, what is it pirates keep saying about their activities not harming anyone?



> I also don't see it as morally wrong, since my morals are rather Kant'esque.


"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"?

That's Crowley, I think, but still relevant.


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## dietrc70 (Jun 5, 2008)

Nequ said:


> So, what is it pirates keep saying about their activities not harming anyone?
> 
> 
> "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"?
> ...


 
Well, no. That quote is definitely not a good summary of the catagorical imperative.

Let's say someone downloads the games, movies, and music he wants but does not pay for it.

In order to be morally consistent, this person would have to be okay with the idea that everyone else would do the same thing.

However, in that case there would be nothing to download, because the producers would go bankrupt.

On the other hand, if someone downloads things to decide if they are worth buying, and then pays for whatever he likes or uses, he could logically will that everyone else do the same thing. The consumers would be more satisified, and the producers of content would be rewarded for making quality work.

Obviously, a lot of people are going to download stuff and never pay for it, but there isn't a clear division between file-sharers and paying customers. One of the studies of file-sharing (from a Harvard prof; forgot the name) showed that many of the biggest file-sharers are also the biggest buyers. Radiohead's latest album also suggests that a lot of people are willing to pay for music they think is worth buying, even if they don't have to.


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## An Sionnach Rua (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree with what dietrc70 is saying here, but would the idea Radiohead used work throughout the entire industry?


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## Monak (Jun 5, 2008)

THEY WILL NEVER STOP ME................ Uh........... I mean Piracy is wrong and should be stopped.  PFFFFT! FUCK THAT , FREE LONG DONG SILVER! LONG LIVE THE S&S!


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## WarMocK (Jun 6, 2008)

An Sionnach Rua said:


> I agree with what dietrc70 is saying here, but would the idea Radiohead used work throughout the entire industry?


That would depend on the fame of the artists imho. Radiohead is popular, as well as NIN, so they already have a lot of fans who know their music and are willing to pay a lot of money for it. But if DJ Huettenkaese would do the same nobody would care because nobody knows him.
And that's the dilemma.
New artists need a community, and the only way to get one is promotion. And unfortunately almost all possible ad markets are controlled by the major labels, and they try to destroy anything that could become a threat, like P2P.
For example, artists could create sample CDs and distribute them on a specific torrent site, with the hint that there are complete albums for sale for a fair price. The artists needed to be ranked by an official comittee of music experts, and the site would be published in the way like itunes (banners on other sites etc.).
But the majors are paying a lot of money to make people think that torrent is illegal by default, destroying this market before it's even born.


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