# Transracial???



## Student (Jun 12, 2015)

Not sure if this belongs in rants/raves, because of where things might be heading, but...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/12/us/washington-spokane-naacp-rachel-dolezal-identity/

*TL;DR*: a woman who is the head of a NAACP chapter, has adopted African-american children, and is a university lecturer in African studies was recently outed as a white person "pretending" to be black.

At the end of the article there is some musing about if being transracial is a thing, if it is legitimate, and what that would even mean.

*Submitted to the furry fandom*: can you choose your RL race like you would choose your fursona species? Or is that horribly racist and/or something that undermines the struggles of people with legitimate identity issues?


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

This reminds me of the English man who styled himself as a native American called 'great owl' or something of the sort...although that was way back in black and white photography times.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

This is the first I've ever heard of something like this... the first question that comes is why she chose to change her appearance. If simmilar reasons to those of trans people come out... no, no, it's not the same thing at all, it just isn't, the factours are different, the background is different, the histories are different, everything regarding race/ethnicity and gender is different.

If she feels more at home in the black community, then so be it, but if this turns out to be true, then this step was definitely a questionable one. As far as I am concerned, she can't just choose to be black: she wasn't born in a black environment or household, she wasn't raised with "black" as part of her identity, she hasn't gone through the experiences a black person might have thanks to their appearance and hypothetical cultural background. She has informed herself on the issues they face, alright, but still, that doesn't make her a black person, and it never will.

Also, no, you can't choose your ethnicity in the sense you can't choose your appearance or the cultural group(s) and environment(s) you were raised into. Trying to do so smacks of cultural appropiation.

The matter is a complex one overall, and one that would merit a more thoughtful post, though.


----------



## RedSavage (Jun 12, 2015)

Some one needs mental help.


----------



## Luki (Jun 12, 2015)

Hm, she seems like a good person overall, and she's done some admirable things. I couldn't care less what she wants to do with her body.

I don't see any reason to hate on her. Some of the criticism on her is just plain stupid, imo.

_"It's not just her appropriation. It's that she claimed an oppression that wasn't hers._" - She's a bad person for helping fight for a certain cause because she wasn't born a certain race? Wha?


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

You can't chose your race...IDK where you got that from and this lady needs help.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Luki said:


> _"It's not just her appropriation. It's that she claimed an oppression that wasn't hers._" - She's a bad person for helping fight for a certain cause because she wasn't born a certain race? Wha?


It's not quite what is being implied in the quote. She could help, but not through "making" herself something she wasn't, something she doesn't know from the inside, from birth. Maybe this was her attempt at doing so? Who knows, but it comes off as disrespectful because it's based on a lie about her background, plus, other things I'm sorting out right now and are giving me a serious headache.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

Commie Bat said:


> People change their gender, what's wrong with changing your race?



If that's the case, I'll go and become white. I hear they have more privileges in America. :V


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Commie Bat said:


> People change their gender, what's wrong with changing your race?


Actually, they change their sex (I think that's more accurate to say).


----------



## Luki (Jun 12, 2015)

Ariosto said:


> It's not quite what is being implied in the quote. She could help, but not through "making" herself something she wasn't and hadn't fully lived through.


Did she ever really claim she was being opressed because she was black or that she knows what it is like to grow up as one?


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Don't transgenders argue that their brainwave patterns are different (and akin to the opposite sex?)

I don't think different races have different brainwaves.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

Not my bonus points!!!


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Don't transgenders argue that their brainwave patterns are different (and akin to the opposite sex?)
> 
> I don't think different races have different brainwaves.



I didn't know the different sexes had different brainwaves; source?


----------



## Astrium (Jun 12, 2015)

This begs the question, is there such a thing as race dysphoria in the same way there's gender dysphoria?


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

@Fallow: I think you might appreciate this one. 

It's still being researched though, I think.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

Astrium said:


> This begs the question, is there such a thing as race dysphoria in the same way there's gender dysphoria?



No because then that brings up the issue of "self-hatred".


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Darrylwolf would've loved this thread.


----------



## Luki (Jun 12, 2015)

Astrium said:


> This begs the question, is there such a thing as race dysphoria in the same way there's gender dysphoria?


People would abuse that so much. Think of the hordes of weaboos claiming they were born the wrong race if that were to become a thing!


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> @Fallow: I think you might appreciate this one.
> 
> It's still being researched though, I think.



These aren't brainwaves, but okay.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Fallowfox said:


> These aren't brainwaves, but okay.



Oh yeah...XD

Whooooopsie. I'll keep looking then. I think Red linked me one AGEEEESSSS ago that was very nice.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Commie Bat said:


> If they change their sex, I'm impressed how they figured out how to change X and Y chromosomes.  I was always taught that sex is the biological and genetic being, while gender is the construct.


They cannot change their chromosomes, that's true, but they can change their hormonal influx and their genitalia.

@Butterfly: Why would've DarrylWolf loved it?


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

Besides, you're also playing into the goal of racists if we all accept that race dsyphoria is a thing. 

"Ohh look look! Nobody wants to be a nigger; they all want to be white!"


----------



## Student (Jun 12, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> Some one needs mental help.



I think a good test of disorder or mental illness is if thoughts/behaviour cause A) Impairment, B) Distress, and C) Are rare. Only C hits here. Arguably she is not disordered, and only became impaired and distressed after being "outed." But yeah, I fully agree with you that this person probably has some personality issues that are not exactly normative.


I think it is important to point out that race in of it self is a social  construct. What makes someone a certain race has more to do with how  they themselves and how other people around them think about them,  rather than the actual colour of their skin. Albino people who have  white skin, but are born of dark-skinned parents, still identify as  black as they have integrated the social construct of "blackness."

Similarly  gender is a social construct in that it is a confluence of how we think  of our selves and how others treat us. What i'm struggling with her is,  why does it feel okay when person A wants to reject social construct  "female" for social construct "male", but it feels so icky and wrong  when person B wants to reject social construct "white" for social  construct "black"?

Both involve differentials of privilege and oppression, both involve discordant socialization and life experience.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Sylox said:


> Besides, you're also playing into the goal of racists if we all accept that race dsyphoria is a thing.
> 
> "Ohh look look! Nobody wants to be a nigger; they all want to be white!"


That's basically the gist of this controversy. Since racism is still alive, willingly changing your appeareance to look more like another ethnic group is not a harmless and innocent choice, not even if the group is a minoritary one.

@Student:
You raise many good points (I always forget about exceptions like albino people). Still, one could always question this particular person's reasons for choosing to identify as black, and that is just what makes one wonder...


----------



## Astrium (Jun 12, 2015)

Ariosto said:


> They cannot change their chromosomes, that's true, but they can change their hormonal influx and their genitalia.
> 
> @Butterfly: Why would've DarrylWolf loved it?



Technically, we can't give them 100% functioning genitalia. We have yet to develop a method of giving transwomen a working uterus or transmen functional testes.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Ariosto said:


> They cannot change their chromosomes, that's true, but they can change their hormonal influx and their genitalia.
> 
> @Butterfly: Why would've DarrylWolf loved it?



He considered himself transracial because he liked "black people music" and had fantasies of having a big black dick.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Oh yeah...XD
> 
> Whooooopsie. I'll keep looking then. I think Red linked me one AGEEEESSSS ago that was very nice.



I went to the wikipedia pages on neural oscillation and electroencephalography [I somehow managed to spell that right first time]. No mention of 'male' 'female' 'gender' or 'sex' is made, and if there were a significant difference between male and female brainwaves, I would have expected this to be mentioned. 

There are significant differences for epileptics, though, whose seizures manifest as 'spikes' on the read out, and for the mentally impaired, who tend to lack the higher frequencies.



Commie Bat said:


> If they change their sex, I'm impressed how  they figured out how to change X and Y chromosomes.  I was always taught  that sex is the biological and genetic being, while gender is the  construct.



I've seen trans people argue that defining the sex based on the chromosomes is arbitrary and 'un-scientific'. 

...which was a bit exotic. 

Although it is of note that different groups of organisms achieve 'male' or 'female' with different chromosomes. Some creatures have XX for male and XY for female [birds], some don't even have X or Y chromosomes, and some groups, like the crocodiles have their sex determined by the temperature their eggs were incubated at...which is bizarre.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> He considered himself transracial because he liked "black people music" and had fantasies of having a big black dick.


Well, that comes from a place of fetishization of black people and black culture...



Commie Bat said:


> Which doesn't change their biological sex.  Appearance and thinking yes, they will still be either genetically male or female.


Maybe I'm just using the term metonymically? It's not quite accurate, scientifically speaking, but I suppose it's easier to put it that way.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> he liked "black people music" and had fantasies of having a big black dick.



Don't we all?


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Fallowfox said:


> Don't we all?



I'm from the South. ^^ 

:V


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

What is "black peoples music"? I'm curious about this one.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Sylox said:


> What is "black peoples music"? I'm curious about this one.



Funnily enough, Darryl was referring to motown. 

I wish I made it that up, but sometimes the funniest shit is real life crap.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

Sylox said:


> What is "black peoples music"? I'm curious about this one.




Probably referring to rap?



Butters Shikkon said:


> Funnily enough, Darryl was referring to motown.
> 
> I wish I made it that up, but sometimes the funniest shit is real life crap.



Oh what's motown?


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

I had no idea music was divided along racial lines, but w/e I'm not going to stress it. Apparently if you're black and you don't like rap, there is something wrong with you.


----------



## CaptainCool (Jun 12, 2015)

Fallowfox said:


> I didn't know the different sexes had different brainwaves; source?



It's not really about brainwaves, but trans people do seem to have brains that have the characteristics of a brain of the opposite gender. I'm in mobile so I can't really find sources right now, but it's pretty easy to find.


----------



## Fallowfox (Jun 12, 2015)

CaptainCool said:


> It's not really about brainwaves, but trans people do seem to have brains that have the characteristics of a brain of the opposite gender. I'm in mobile so I can't really find sources right now, but it's pretty easy to find.



I was already aware of differences in brain anatomy, just I'd never heard of differences in brain waves, which was why I was interested.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Well, Student's questionings are giving me much to think about, and I still have a case of too much info to process... I can't keep myself from commenting on this matter, but I feel like I'm not qualified to really think about this in appropiate terms yet.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Fallowfox said:


> Probably referring to rap?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh what's motown?



 Old People Music. :VVVV 

@Sylox: He was a bit of a forum joke for a long time.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

I'll take your word for it Butters.


----------



## Student (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters et al. said:
			
		

> Different brainwaves, different brain characteristics



Not to get off topic on the thread I created, but...

This as a concept that helps define transgender makes me feel very iffy. Does this mean that an essential part of being transgender is having a discordant brain? Does that mean that only people who submit to an MRI and prove they have an other-gendered brain can be considered as appropriate candidates for gender reassignment surgery? Exactly how do physiological structural differences in the brain causally relate to the phenomenal subjective _experience_ of being gendered? Exactly how does having a matching/mismatching brain delegitimize or legitimize, respectively, someone's subjective sense of suffering?

Cognitive neuroscience is a rabbit hole we can fall down that misdirects from the fact that we are talking about ways of relating to each other socially, whether that be about race, or in the case of points people have brought up, gender. We are talking about how people sincerely experience _feel__ings_, not about the structure of the meat-computer that runs those feelings.


----------



## Charrio (Jun 12, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Don't transgenders argue that their brainwave patterns are different (and akin to the opposite sex?)
> 
> I don't think different races have different brainwaves.



I don't think any hard research has been done on feeling you are a different race. 
Dismissed the same they laughed at people with gender identity, until there is actual tests
done we really can't know.  lot of things we assumed like homosexuality may be something 
else or not. We will never know unless the money is spent and the time and effort to search 
it out. 

Personally I find it to be bullshit, but can't claim I know it all so might need testing. Better funds
spent then the speed of catchup or to find out if rats like getting masturbated with a glass pipette. 
(Real case BTW)



Student said:


> Not to get off topic on the thread I created, but...
> 
> This as a concept that helps define transgender makes me feel very iffy. Does this mean that an essential part of being transgender is having a discordant brain? Does that mean that only people who submit to an MRI and prove they have an other-gendered brain can be considered as appropriate candidates for gender reassignment surgery? Exactly how do physiological structural differences in the brain causally relate to the phenomenal subjective _experience_ of being gendered? Exactly how does having a matching/mismatching brain delegitimize or legitimize, respectively, someone's subjective sense of suffering?
> 
> Cognitive neuroscience is a rabbit hole we can fall down that misdirects from the fact that we are talking about ways of relating to each other socially, whether that be about race, or in the case of points people have brought up, gender. We are talking about how people sincerely experience _feel__ings_, not about the structure of the meat-computer that runs those feelings.



I think the media and people over blow some of the news facts about things making everything relevant magnified. I'd like to hear from doctors for one and their ideas on it. Not the media or parents, the patients and the Doctors. Honest interviews and questions, that is almost never shown without some spin on it or media circus.


----------



## Gator (Jun 12, 2015)

i just find it interesting that people claiming to be transracial get the exact same responses from others that people claiming to be transgender have gotten.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Gator said:


> i just find it interesting that people claiming to be transracial get the exact same responses from others that people claiming to be transgender have gotten.


For now, and after some consideration, I think it's best to see if this case marks a milestone/first or not.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

There is no such thing as "Transracial". Why do we keep letting Tumblr dictate how society operates?


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

Sylox said:


> There is no such thing as "Transracial". Why do we keep letting Tumblr dictate how society operates?


Believe me, Tumblr is probably in arms against her : P


----------



## Roose Hurro (Jun 12, 2015)

Commie Bat said:


> People change their gender, what's wrong with changing your race?



Oooo... but it gets worse.


----------



## LegitWaterfall (Jun 12, 2015)

There's being biracial, then there's this.


----------



## Charrio (Jun 12, 2015)

Roose Hurro said:


> Oooo... but it gets worse.



ROFL
Wow,I think i am one of those lol


----------



## Artillery Spam (Jun 12, 2015)

*Transracial. *

Welp...


----------



## Roose Hurro (Jun 12, 2015)

Charrio said:


> ROFL
> Wow,I think i am one of those lol



Humanity is weird.  I should just declare myself an "alien" critter, and start my own "group" of crazy.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Artillery Spam said:


> Transracial.
> 
> Welp...



That scene always made me laugh. It was so over the top. 

Then things just go back to normal next episode.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 12, 2015)

LegitWaterfall said:


> There's being biracial, then there's this.


I haven't found a comprehensive list of arguments against the trans community comparison, but I found this:http://thisisnotjapan.tumblr.com/post/39701055486/faq
(Search for 'transethnic')
It refers to the ACTUAL use of term and briefly addresses the use this thread refers to.
The blog is also currently addressing the issue.

For the record, actual transracial people are those who were adopted by parents of a different ethnicity.

It could be argued that wishing to change your appereance to a different one is hypothetically fair, but going as far as identifying as another culture without anything approaching a meaningful interaction with its members, that's easier to question. I suppose we'll have to wait until the full facts of this case are disclosed.


----------



## Troj (Jun 12, 2015)

First up, I'm not overly keen on people claiming to be "trans-racial."

Based on my reading and research, I believe transgender people are transgender due to a mix of neurological, biochemical, and social factors. 

I think trans-abled people are trans-abled due primarily to neurological factors--specifically, damage to the motor strip of the brain.

I  believe otherkin and therians feel non-human because they've  attributed their sense of disenfranchisement and social alienation and various sensory experiences to not being human.

I  think wanting to be a different race, ethnicity, or culture is usually just  about having an affinity for that group, feeling sympathy for them,  and/or liking the byproducts of their culture.

Each of these things is different from the others.

When people who think it'd be really cool to be Chinese or black claim to be "trans-racial," it makes it that much harder for people with genuine body dysphoria to earn rights and respect.

Now, you might consider yourself a member of a particular culture, because you've grown up in or around that culture, and are intimately familiar with it. I'd say that's potentially fair.

But, my sense is that you _can't_ fairly claim to be part of a given culture _just_ because you like it, admire it, or sympathize with it. Sorry, weeabos, you're not Japanese just because you can say ten words in Japanese and love ramen.

There are other ethical and practical matters to consider here, too.

If  someone who claims to be a member of X group is siphoning resources, publicity, power, or time away from other people  (especially their adopted group) for personal gain, that's wrong. 

If that person's activities are serving to sabotage or undermine the efforts of people who  have legitimately struggled or worked for equal rights or equal respect,  then that's shitty.

If  someone appears to just be carelessly roleplaying in a way that suggests that they don't really respect or understand the culture whose trappings they've haphazardly adopted, they don't deserve to be taken seriously. MAMMY! MAMMY! I'M SO FANCY!

If  someone looks like they're embracing a particular identity for money,  fame, sympathy, or attention, that's gross and stupid. Ditto if they  come across as just engaging in some "oppression tourism," where they  get to "experience" being an oppressed or marginalized person, without  having to live as one.

If  someone doesn't bother, exploit or hurt anyone by claiming a particular  identity; demonstrates genuine understanding of and compassion for the  members of their adopted group; and/or actively helps the members of  their adopted group, I'm much more tempted to give them the benefit of the  doubt.

I'm not sure what to think of this woman yet, but I think a great deal depends on whether she is truly willing in her heart to step aside to make way for her "fellow" blacks when push comes to shove, and to stand with them through fire _and_ through rain.


----------



## Harbinger (Jun 12, 2015)

This species is the dumbdedest.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

I bet she isn't down for the struggle.


----------



## Troj (Jun 12, 2015)

Actually, yeah, I think whether this woman is worthy of cheers, jeers, or shrugs largely hinges on whether or not she's _actually_ down for the struggle, and all that that might entail.


----------



## Sonlir (Jun 12, 2015)

didn't michael jackson already perfect the art?


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

He had a skin condition


----------



## Sonlir (Jun 12, 2015)

yeah I know.. I was trying to make a joke ;-;


----------



## Kosdu (Jun 12, 2015)

Transracial is not a thing in my mind, you can change your culture and how you view the world but attributing all those things to a race is just... Insulting. 

I really respect various ways I've heard about of the Cherokee, I've been learning more of the Sundanese and they seem like a frankly cool people. The thing is, I'm never going to be "transracial" even if I were to live among these people and learn their ways... It's a culture not a skin color. That's just how I feel.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Jun 12, 2015)

Sonlir said:


> yeah I know.. I was trying to make a joke ;-;



I got it.


----------



## Volkodav (Jun 12, 2015)

Okay so I understand the outrage over this, yes. The reason why people are mad is because when people "identify as" black, they're basing this off of black stereotypes.

*However* I often see the term "acting white" thrown around without care in the black community when someone is speaking correctly or is doing things that would therwise be considered normal.

Why is this not an outrage?


----------



## Roose Hurro (Jun 12, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Okay so I understand the outrage over this, yes. The reason why people are mad is because when people "identify as" black, they're basing this off of black stereotypes.
> 
> *However* I often see the term "acting white" thrown around without care in the black community when someone is speaking correctly or is doing things that would therwise be considered normal.
> 
> *Why is this not an outrage?*



For the same reason blacks can call each other "n****rs" while no one else can, I'd imagine.


----------



## Luki (Jun 12, 2015)

Troj said:


> Actually, yeah, I think whether this woman is worthy of cheers, jeers, or shrugs largely hinges on whether or not she's _actually_ down for the struggle, and all that that might entail.


She's the president of a local NAACP, adopted *four* children and has been an advocate for the black community for most of her life. That seems like a good woman to me, not deserving of all the hate she's getting.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> *However* I often see the term "acting white" thrown around without care in the black community when someone is speaking correctly or is doing things that would therwise be considered normal.
> 
> Why is this not an outrage?



It's complicated and as somebody who got alot of that in HS, I can tell you that it mostly stems from the prevailing attitude that you are selling out to join "them" by doing it. The reason there is no outrage is simple; nobody gives a crap because it's not RACIALLY based. You notice it's *okay* for me to call -sliqq- a nigga and nobody bats an eye; you call him a nigga and hold on! Uncle Al and Uncle Jessie are knocking on your door.

Look black folks have alot of hypocrisy and BS we need to fix internally; just my take.


----------



## Troj (Jun 12, 2015)

Luki said:


> She's the president of a local NAACP, adopted *four* children and has been an advocate for the black community for most of her life. That seems like a good woman to me, not deserving of all the hate she's getting.



I'm still just learning about her background, but yeah, I'm at least inclined to agree that she doesn't _sound_ malicious or bad-intentioned, and that she seems like she genuinely wants to help people. Kudos for that, at least.

Of course, then we get into increasingly-muddy questions around whether she did or didn't advocate for people effectively (who knows, because I don't), whether her previous advocacy efforts are worth the drama, inconvenience, and embarrassment that her outing has probably caused the NAACP and black community (ditto), whether she's too "privileged" to really grok the struggle (again, can't say myself), and whether she "stole" the spotlight and/or her leadership position in the NAACP from people who really needed it (ditto again). 

I'm guessing those are some of the issues that are going to be on the table (at least in more highbrow discussions).


----------



## Unsilenced (Jun 12, 2015)

> "Dolezal represented herself as African-American -- along with several other ethnicities, including white and Native American -- in an application for a Spokane police ombudsman commission."



Tumblr logic, minority identities are like pokemon.


----------



## Student (Jun 12, 2015)

Troj said:


> I'm still just learning about her background, but yeah, I'm at least inclined to agree that she doesn't _sound_ malicious or bad-intentioned, and that she seems like she genuinely wants to help people. Kudos for that, at least.



I think if she had just wanted to help people, the pretense would have not been necessary. Something feels very... unwholesome about whatever her motives may have been and the charade that she adopted to realize them. It rings of that special kind of delusional self-involvement that only a psychopathic narcissist truly possesses and is ultimately undone by.


----------



## Lomberdia (Jun 12, 2015)

I wanna be native american so I can get a casino and I wanna be asian so I can be good at tech stuff....trade off is I have to fail at my social life...hmmm.


----------



## Croconaw (Jun 12, 2015)

If we accept people buying NX cash for a sex change, why don't we accept people for wanting to change race? 

It's like you FAFailians never played Maplestory.


----------



## Troj (Jun 12, 2015)

You may be right, Student. Like I said, I'm still learning about the situation. It's not crystal clear to me (or probably, to most people) yet whether she maintained the charade out of narcissism or psychopathy, or out of fear and a desperate need to belong. Either could be the case.

It's also very possible that she could be well-intentioned--or at least, not meaning to screw anyone or do them harm--but also deluded and self-absorbed.

Mostly, I've been "sniffing" for signs that she was a ladder-climber or a total attention whore, because those are the types of people I'd suspect of pretending to be a minority.

I could also be reading her wrong, because my reference point for this sort of thing is Ward fucking Churchill, whose arrogance and snottiness were visible from space from the start.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 12, 2015)

I just want to be White so I can get a job and a loan from the bank. Hell I already *sound* white and *dress* white, so I'll just paint myself white and be done with it. :V


----------



## Artillery Spam (Jun 13, 2015)

Sylox said:


> Look black folks have alot of hypocrisy and BS we need to fix internally; just my take.



Pfft, _good luck with that_. You're not allowed to have an opposing perspective in the black community. If you're a black person that has an opinion that runs counter to the Negro Borg Standard, you're automatically a coon or a sellout. If you're especially lucky, your life will be threatened.

No joke. Dare to reject the victim mentality and you risk racial expulsion.


----------



## Willow (Jun 13, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Okay so I understand the outrage over this, yes. The reason why people are mad is because when people "identify as" black, they're basing this off of black stereotypes.
> 
> *However* I often see the term "acting white" thrown around without care in the black community when someone is speaking correctly or is doing things that would therwise be considered normal.
> 
> Why is this not an outrage?


Because black people who "act white" aren't claiming to be white. I'd also like to throw out there that acting white isn't totally a good thing. Like people get ostracized for things like that in the black community :/



Roose Hurro said:


> For the same reason blacks can call each other "n****rs" while no one else can, I'd imagine.


Well first of all it's "nigga", second of all, because historically the N-word has been used as a racial slur (by white people mostly) against blacks. So blacks have sort of reclaimed the word in the same way the LGBT community reclaimed a lot of its negative slurs
Doesn't mean there's still a moral outcry when we use it ourselves though because there is


----------



## Unsilenced (Jun 13, 2015)

There's a strain of people who seem to get off on righteousness without actually possessing the empathy and respect that usually drive altruism. They get one fantasy stuck in their head about how they'll be the hero, and will do anything to play that role, even if it means betraying the values they want to be seen championing. 

There was a story I read about a guy who pretended to be an emergency worker during some disaster, and actually managed to take control of operations before anyone realized that he didn't belong there.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 13, 2015)

Artillery Spam said:


> Pfft, _good luck with that_. You're not allowed to have an opposing perspective in the black community. If you're a black person that has an opinion that runs counter to the Negro Borg Standard, you're automatically a coon or a sellout. If you're especially lucky, your life will be threatened.
> 
> No joke. Dare to reject the victim mentality and you risk racial expulsion.



As much as I disagree with you on alot of stuff, you are right about this. There is the thought that if we go against the status quo, we are selling out and I hate that mentality that is allowed to run rife within the community. If MLK were alive and saw this foolishness he'd lose his damn mind. There's nothing wrong with wanting to better yourself through education and culture; you don't have to like Rap or basketball...I mean are we that insecure that we can't stand it if people don't have the same opinions?

IDK, there are days were I wonder WTF is wrong with us.



Willow said:


> Like people get ostracized for things like that in the black community :/



Yes because education is a "white thing". Shit, I've had the displeasure of meeting some of the most uncultured, ignorant, bigoted, ass-backwards and overall just plain stupid white folks in the world. White folks don't hold a monopoly over education because alot of them need help to get into college!!! Yes, whitey needs Affirmative Action because if it didn't exist (which I think it shouldn't) all of the colleges on the west coast and HYP would be full of Asians and Indians. So whoever thought educating oneself is a "white thing," and that being educated is something that is exclusively held by whites, is one of the dumbest POS to ever walk the Earth.

Yes I went there and if you got a problem with it, then ohh well, that's life.


----------



## Willow (Jun 13, 2015)

Sylox said:


> Yes because education is a "white thing". Shit, I've had the displeasure of meeting some of the most uncultured, ignorant, bigoted, ass-backwards and overall just plain stupid white folks in the world. White folks don't hold a monopoly over education because alot of them need help to get into college!!! Yes, whitey needs Affirmative Action because if it didn't exist (which I think it shouldn't) all of the colleges on the west coast and HYP would be full of Asians and Indians. So whoever thought educating oneself is a "white thing," and that being educated is something that is exclusively held by whites, is one of the dumbest POS to ever walk the Earth.
> 
> Yes I went there and if you got a problem with it, then ohh well, that's life.


I guess because the typical "white way" of speaking is considered the grammatically correct way to speak whereas AAVE is seen as the uneducated black folk way of speaking given that it originated in the South with slavery


----------



## Sylox (Jun 13, 2015)

To me you should know how to speak the King's English. Ebonics is a joke and needs to be dropped from our lexicon ASAP. You want respect, speak properly.


----------



## Astrium (Jun 13, 2015)

Sylox said:


> As much as I disagree with you on alot of stuff, you are right about this. There is the thought that if we go against the status quo, we are selling out and I hate that mentality that is allowed to run rife within the community. If MLK were alive and saw this foolishness he'd lose his damn mind. There's nothing wrong with wanting to better yourself through education and culture; you don't have to like Rap or basketball...I mean are we that insecure that we can't stand it if people don't have the same opinions?
> 
> IDK, there are days were I wonder WTF is wrong with us.
> 
> ...



But how do they react to Neil DeGrasse Tyson?


----------



## Artillery Spam (Jun 13, 2015)

Astrium said:


> But how do they react to Neil DeGrasse Tyson?



This is just a hunch, but I'd wager that most are ignorant of his very existence. 

Same exact deal with Thomas Sowell, Jason L. Riley, and Walter E. Williams.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Jun 13, 2015)

Honestly, I don't care.

The only race among humans is the human race. How far are we going to separate one another, simply because a person believes or acts how they wish? Why should we care about grammar, as the english language and number of dialects doesn't make one form correct or incorrect. 

It's the same force of racism being directed going in the opposite direction and it's pitiful.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 13, 2015)

-Sliqq- said:


> Honestly, I don't care.
> 
> The only race among humans is the human race. How far are we going to separate one another, simply because a person believes or acts how they wish? Why should we care about grammar, as the english language and number of dialects doesn't make one form correct or incorrect.
> 
> It's the same force of racism being directed going in the opposite direction and it's pitiful.



-Sliqq- I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. You have to realize we live in a world where racism and discrimination is still used in employment and when an employer hears somebody use Ebonics, they immeadisatley toss that guy out. That's just the reality that we still live in so its important that we stress speaking proper English and not AAVE or w/e its called. I understand where you are coming from on this, and agree that we shouldn't care about grammar, but the sad part is that we need to care if we are to make advances.


----------



## Troj (Jun 13, 2015)

Context matters.

I don't swear or use slang when I'm at job interviews or in other formal settings, and I'm generally mindful of how I speak when I'm with different people in my life.

Sylox is absolutely right that we unfortunately _have_ to care about how we sound and come across, and have to be aware of other people's stereotypes about people like us if we ever want to get ahead.


----------



## -Sliqq- (Jun 13, 2015)

Sylox said:


> -Sliqq- I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. You have to realize we live in a world where racism and discrimination is still used in employment and when an employer hears somebody use Ebonics, they immeadisatley toss that guy out. That's just the reality that we still live in so its important that we stress speaking proper English and not AAVE or w/e its called. I understand where you are coming from on this, and agree that we shouldn't care about grammar, but the sad part is that we need to care if we are to make advances.



It's cool. I was just letting some heat escape. 

It's a sad reality, but it has to be dealt with. I don't expect racism to end at any point, and likewise the idea of "reverse racism". I do think that's the advances we would have would be limited if we stick to this idea that 'x' people should be 'x' way & 'y' people should be 'y' way.

When 'x' person acts like a 'y' person, for some reason all hell breaks loose, and we go back to square one with the issue.


----------



## Zerig (Jun 13, 2015)

guys I'm transkike

give me all your shekels because muh holocaust

ehehehehe


----------



## Student (Jun 13, 2015)

Even though race is an imaginary social construct that only exists in the minds of human beings, it still has _real_ implications for how we treat each other.


----------



## Troj (Jun 13, 2015)

Well, and I'm not entirely certain it's _totally_ imaginary. People can indeed be classified by haplogroup, and anthropologists can determine the race of a skull based on its characteristics.

I'd say that racial and genetic characteristics are real, but that where humans have drawn the lines between races and groups is largely socially-constructed and not reflective of reality.


----------



## Student (Jun 13, 2015)

Troj said:


> Well, and I'm not entirely certain it's _totally_ imaginary. People can indeed be classified by haplogroup, and anthropologists can determine the race of a skull based on its characteristics.
> 
> I'd say that racial and genetic characteristics are real, but that where humans have drawn the lines between races and groups is largely socially-constructed and not reflective of reality.



Right, Troj. I'm not arguing that people who call themselves black don't tend to have more melanin in their skin cells, or that people who call themselves Nordics don't tend to have blue eyes. In this sense the construct of race has _some_ basis in physical reality (as all social constructs do, really).

But race is far more than a taxonomy that people use to classify and distinguish physiological characteristics. I actually cannot find any evidence that it is used _purely_ in that form in actual social practice. It is a schema that people use to make sense of and meaningfully relate to their social environment, and this schema is reified into a concrete sense of self. In turn that sense of self is used to rank, include, and exclude others.

I definitely agree with you that where we draw the lines is not reflective in reality. One thing that puzzled me about Obama is that everyone referrers to him as America's first _black_ president. However even a cursory look into his family history will reveal that he is actually what most people would describe as biracial, as he has a white mother and a black father. So why is he not referred to as America's first biracial president? I suspect because the subjective experience of blackness transcends mere genetic mixing. In the USA it has to do with the social/relational implications of having darker skin and curlier hair than most other people, and how being part of the outgroup shapes one's worldview and life experiences.

SO getting back to the woman who started this topic, is it okay to call Rachel Dolezal black (regardless of her motivations) if she _voluntarily _darkens her skin and curls her hair, thus causing people to relate to her as a black person, and in turn shaping her worldview and life experiences to be congruent with what we consider a "black life"? Or does this just make her some privileged white tourist putting on blackface while others in that position never had any choice to begin with?


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 13, 2015)

Your questions and clear thinking are something to envy, Student.



Student said:


> SO getting back to the woman who started this topic, is it okay to call Rachel Dolezal black (regardless of her motivations) if she _voluntarily _darkens her skin and curls her hair, thus causing people to relate to her as a black person, and in turn shaping her worldview and life experiences to be congruent with what we consider a "black life"? Or does this just make her some privileged white tourist putting on blackface while others in that position never had any choice to begin with?


It's a complex situation, I'd say...
On the one hand, it _seems_ she's effectively assimilated into "black" environments  (apparently, very few people suspected about her actual racial background), and therefore has started to share many of the issues they do. However, she, unlike most "black" people, has the choice to stop being perceived as such. As Troj has said, much of the answer to this depends on whether she's willing to stick with this identity and all what it entails in the current state of society.
Now that she's been "outed", though, I wonder how this is going to affect the way people perceive her. I wonder whether nobody will see her as "truly black" and therefore she'll keep getting the same privileges she used to have as a "white" person. That, to me, sounds like the opposite case of "white-passing" people of colour.


----------



## Student (Jun 13, 2015)

Ariosto said:


> Now that she's been "outed", though, I wonder how this is going to affect the way people perceive her.



Even if her intentions were pure (which I seriously doubt), with all the controversy and distraction this saga has caused I doubt she will be able to continue her activist work because she currently has negative credibility, which is becoming even more negative with each passing news article that comes out about her.

I think what is especially sad is that she could have been a social justice advocate without any of the pretense. The NAACP does not use race as a criteria for membership and one can be a professor of African studies without actually being African.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 13, 2015)

You can't "be" black; there is no set guidelines on how to be us.


----------



## Volkodav (Jun 13, 2015)

Race is physical, not imaginary

Edit: how did they not know she was white. Did they just think shes really super lightskinned?? Lol


----------



## Student (Jun 13, 2015)

Sylox said:


> You can't "be" black; there is no set guidelines on how to be us.



Does that mean you consider Dolezal a fraud? Confused? Batshit? All of the above?


----------



## Unsilenced (Jun 13, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> Race is physical, not imaginary
> 
> Edit: how did they not know she was white. Did they just think shes really super lightskinned?? Lol



Looks like she did at least something with her skin that darkened it, as well as doing make-up in other areas and dying/curling her hair.


----------



## Volkodav (Jun 13, 2015)

She looks like a white woman with bronzer on


----------



## Troj (Jun 13, 2015)

Student said:


> Right, Troj. I'm not arguing that people who call themselves black don't tend to have more melanin in their skin cells, or that people who call themselves Nordics don't tend to have blue eyes. In this sense the construct of race has _some_ basis in physical reality (as all social constructs do, really).



Yup! I know you know this. I was just being as clear as I could be for the record.

There are some nice liberals who've basically painted themselves into a corner by decreeing that any discussion of genetic traits, racial groups, haplogroups, or what have you is necessarily "racist" or "problematic," and that none of these traits "matter," because they don't want people to make the same mistakes and commit the same injustices as the early eugenicists.

These are the folks who'll tell you that you're being "problematic" if you point out that more Kenyans win gold medals for the 100-metre dash than do Koreans. 

Of course, saying that none of these traits matter or that groups of people don't share certain traits is as delusional as ascribing too much significance to these traits and too much meaning to who's in which group. 

As usual, the truth is found somewhere along the Middle Path.



> It is a schema that people use to make sense of and meaningfully relate to their social environment, and this schema is reified into a concrete sense of self. In turn that sense of self is used to rank, include, and exclude others.



Right. Well said.



> So why is he not referred to as America's first biracial president?



Because he looks black, and because "biracial" is a harder concept for people to grok, I'd say. "Black" makes for a better soundbite, because it paints a clearer, less ambiguous picture. 



> I suspect because the subjective experience of blackness transcends mere genetic mixing. In the USA it has to do with the social/relational implications of having darker skin and curlier hair than most other people, and how being part of the outgroup shapes one's worldview and life experiences.



That too! 



> SO getting back to the woman who started this topic, is it okay to call Rachel Dolezal black (regardless of her motivations) if she _voluntarily _darkens her skin and curls her hair, thus causing people to relate to her as a black person, and in turn shaping her worldview and life experiences to be congruent with what we consider a "black life"? Or does this just make her some privileged white tourist putting on blackface while others in that position never had any choice to begin with?



That's definitely the question...


----------



## Traven V (Jun 13, 2015)

IMO be what you want to be or who you feel that you really are. Be it just for today, a week or a lifetime. Isn't that one of the things furry is about?


----------



## Troj (Jun 16, 2015)

So, it's looking like Student may win the kewpie doll on this one:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...of_hate_crimes_the_former_naacp_official.html

I want to call this a kind of variant of Munchausen Syndrome, almost--except, instead of faking an illness or injury, she periodically fakes or exaggerates instances of being discriminated against.


----------



## Charrio (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh Just remembered this movie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2zMrjBLwn8


----------



## Student (Jun 16, 2015)

Troj said:


> I want to call this a kind of variant of Munchausen Syndrome, almost--except, instead of faking an illness or injury, she periodically fakes or exaggerates instances of being discriminated against.



I would give my left arm to be able to interpret her eventual MMPI-2 and Rorschach...


----------



## Sylox (Jun 16, 2015)

AFAIC, she's white, not black. Sorry, you are what you're born in terms of skin color.


----------



## LegitWaterfall (Jun 16, 2015)

I'll just...leave this here.


----------



## Filter (Jun 16, 2015)

It would have been one thing if she was like "I may be white, but I care about civil rights and love African American culture & style." It's quite another to call a random black guy her father and to profit from a false identity. She reminds me of those fake war veterans who never even served that pop up every now and then.


----------



## Ariosto (Jun 16, 2015)

Troj said:


> So, it's looking like Student may win the kewpie doll on this one:
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...of_hate_crimes_the_former_naacp_official.html
> 
> I want to call this a kind of variant of Munchausen Syndrome, almost--except, instead of faking an illness or injury, she periodically fakes or exaggerates instances of being discriminated against.


What's it mean to win a kewpie doll?

And oh, so she lies in more ways than one... well, credibility at this point is zero, that's for sure.


----------



## Troj (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh, it's an old carnival term for the  creepy-cute plastic doll with giant eyes that people would win in carnival games.

It means Student read this lady accurately, by the looks of things. 



			
				Student said:
			
		

> I would give my left arm to be able to interpret her eventual MMPI-2 and Rorschach...



Oh my god I just came.


----------



## Volkodav (Jun 16, 2015)

I liked the part where she said her parents disciplined her with a baboon whip and she was born in a teepee hut in south africa


I also like all the hate crimes by whites that never fucking happened


----------



## Troj (Jun 16, 2015)

The plot thickens:

https://homeschoolersanonymous.word...-dolezals-abusive-homeschooling-parents-want/

Related:

http://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains-why-he-pretended-to-be-black/


----------



## Volkodav (Jun 17, 2015)

look

http://www.mediaite.com/online/dole...-exodus-for-casting-white-actors-as-africans/


----------



## Troj (Jun 17, 2015)

^^^That is magical. You can't write this stuff.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 17, 2015)

She has made a mockery of race and I cannot stand to look at this two-faced POS. "I'm Transracial..." Are you kidding me? 

Lawd I watched this bitch on Nightline last night and threw up in my mouth.


----------



## Volkodav (Jun 17, 2015)

Two faced is perfect
Cause at the end of the day she goes home and washes off the makeup


----------



## LegitWaterfall (Jun 17, 2015)

Volkodav said:


> *Two faced is perfect*
> Cause at the end of the day she goes home and washes off the makeup


All I can think of is that Marilyn Monroe quote about how "If you're gonna be two-faced, at least make one of them pretty"...


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm pretty angry at Dolezal for making money and a career out of the same idea that I only used for free pleasure. But I think she's got a point about identifying as black when her biology isn't so. The community does not even recognize the blackness of Larry Elder, Mia Love, Allen West, and Herman Cain because they are black conservatives- blackness is a set of "true Scotsman" tests that give me the impression that the right mindset must be adopted if one is to be considered black. That's why Toni MOrrison even considered Bill Clinton to be the "first black President". It strikes me as hypocritical for them to use biology to determine blackness when they don't accept what little diversity of opinion can be found in their own community. The people I mentioned are often called "Oreos" and "Uncle Toms" for their divergent beliefs. I have a theory that the community is run much like the medieval church.

Jackson and Sharpton- twin "pontiffs" who speak with "infallibility" on matters of lifestyle and have used authority to supercede the sitting President of the United States to push their own agenda.
Garvey, Carmichael, Newton, X- the predecessors of these pontiffs whose separatist writings are memorized and followed to this day. 
NAACP- "Magisterium" that determines exactly what can and cannot be thought in the black community.
Community leaders- local "bishops" who speak to their congregations about how they should vote in elections. Note that some actual religious leaders do much the same thing in their churches.
Black conservatives- the "heretics" and "witches" who have spoken blasphemy by advocating personal responsibility, indiviudalism, entrepreneurship, integration into the US melting pot, and uplift through hard work and education.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 17, 2015)

DarrylWolf said:


> I'm pretty angry at Dolezal for making money and a career out of the same idea that I only used for free pleasure. But I think she's got a point about identifying as black when her biology isn't so. The community does not even recognize the blackness of Larry Elder, Mia Love, Allen West, and Herman Cain because they are black conservatives- blackness is a set of "true Scotsman" tests that give me the impression that the right mindset must be adopted if one is to be considered black. That's why Toni MOrrison even considered Bill Clinton to be the "first black President". It strikes me as hypocritical for them to use biology to determine blackness when they don't accept what little diversity of opinion can be found in their own community. The people I mentioned are often called "Oreos" and "Uncle Toms" for their divergent beliefs. I have a theory that the community is run much like the medieval church.
> 
> Jackson and Sharpton- twin "pontiffs" who speak with "infallibility" on matters of lifestyle and have used authority to supercede the sitting President of the United States to push their own agenda.
> Garvey, Carmichael, Newton, X- the predecessors of these pontiffs whose separatist writings are memorized and followed to this day.
> ...



I cannot "THIS" this enough. If you are black and a Conservative, you are chastised within the community and seen as a Oreo, Uncle Tom, Sellout, House Nigger/a...it's kind of fucked up and for some reason its accepted by a vast majority of the population. It's why I rarely tell black folks my political ideology because I know they'd raise hell if I told them I'm a Conservative. I only tell my mum because well I take after her politically, although I'm WAY more Conservative than she is. So yes, there is this test that exists and if you don't pass it, well you're not really black, you're an Oreo. Heaven forbid we stress education, pulling your damn pants up, acting like you got some sense in public and saving your money; I guess that's what white folks do and we don't want to be like them. *rolls eyes* Sometimes I just sit back and wonder why we continue to do stupid shit and not allow different opinions to exist. Personally, I think a vast majority of AAs are so god damn insecure that they cannot accept the idea that somebody has a different opinion on something and them lashing out is a defense mechanism.

And don't get me started on the Black Church; ohh god I could talk hours about how they are partially to blame for DL culture and the greed that exists in it. These old ladies on SS dropping Gs on the Pastor who preaches modesty, yet drives a motherfucking Bentley and lives in a big ass mansion, while granny struggling to get by and fix her Lincoln Town Car. I find it so amazing that these assholes have the sheer gall to stand on the pulpit and preach against homosexuality when most of the choir conductors are sucking dick after church. You notice how pastors are quick to denounce homosexuality, yet they don't have an answer to deal with the REAL problems facing the community. For get education and black on black crime, homos are what's going to kill us off.

I'm sorry I had to get that shit off of my chest. There are so many double standards, hypocrisy and shenanigans that go on in the community and it irks me to death so much. I'm pretty sure MLK didn't die so we can walk around sagging our pants and dropping a paycheck on some fucking Rims; correct me if I'm wrong, because I know for a fact he'd be embarrassed to see this shit. Yes, we've made progress since 68; we have a black man in the WH, black representation politically, a rising black middle class, but for all the progress there exists so much failure and ineptitude that just cancels all of that progress when you add it all up. I hope by the time I'm dead in 90 more years, we'll have fixed this shit and caught up with our white counterparts. One of the glaring failures of the Civil Rights Movement is that they failed to ask for economic rights as well, but that's for a different discussion.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 18, 2015)

Of course, one thing that struck me as I read about the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow laws in the US throughout my childhood and well into my college career is just how long-lasting its effects were. I became thoroughly convinced upon seeing how income inequality was tied to color, that the Middle Passage was so unjust that the US government should actively pursue a "right of return" for people of the Diaspora. Of course, I also found about Garveyism and its significance, and how it steeped this belief in religious terms. Figuring that if _goyim_ could be Zionists, I thought what's the problem with "white Garveyism"?

 The USA is experiencing civil unrest in various cities, and I get the sense there are many people here who would jump the opportunity to leave at the drop of a hat, especially if they had some spiritual connection to an ancestral homeland. Most people in Africa distrust the United States because we're white imperialists but what if we sent groups of black Returners to various countries to revamp their economies, help extract mineral wealth, build schools, hospitals, and roads. promote justice and equality, remove corrupt officials, and raise the standard of living throughout the entire continent? They would be heroes in their new countries, the people would not forget the generosity of Yanks in bringing over experts who looked like them and both sides of the Atlantic would prosper. It could be voluntary, with language and cultural lessons and a stipend to help promote growth in Africa by expatriate Americans practicing Garveyism. Until we see that happen, I predict Africa will continue to be a cesspool of corruption and America will have a large group of angry mobs who are channeling their energy in the most negative of ways.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 18, 2015)

I don't know if Garveyism is the right path to fix Africa IMO. The problems in Africa go deeper than just corruption, there is also the extraction of natural resources, HIV/Aids, Malaria, the effects of Colonialism, ethnic clashes, the rise of Islam, etc. Africa will get better when they have someone willing to address all of the problems and not just one thing.


----------



## Artillery Spam (Jun 18, 2015)

Sylox said:


> I don't know if Garveyism is the right path to fix Africa IMO. The problems in Africa go deeper than just corruption, there is also the extraction of natural resources, HIV/Aids, Malaria, the effects of Colonialism, ethnic clashes, the rise of Islam, etc. Africa will get better when they have someone willing to address all of the problems and not just one thing.



The West (and East) could actually aid Africa by simply fucking off forever. 

I'm serious. Cut all aid to that area of the world, wait two decades, and then come back to see who's left.

No UN. 

No Peace Corps. 

No high-energy biscuits.

Let nature do what it was designed to do.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 18, 2015)

Yeah, lets let a ton of black people die because nature intended for it to happen. The same people said the same thing with slavery; nature intended us to be in chains. 

Don't be retarded.


----------



## RedSavage (Jun 18, 2015)

@ Sylox: So you want to cut foreign aid and welfare but we need to help those oversea folk who contribute nothing to our economy? 

I'm confused. 

Personally, I wish we would go back to minding our own fuckin' business in terms of foreign aid. Let's balance the check book before we give money away. But it's something to do with the whole "I scratch your back and you scratch mine" thing. The US is not a selfless angel and we most always certainly have an ulterior motive, whether it is war, foreign aid, and the likes.


----------



## Artillery Spam (Jun 18, 2015)

Sylox said:


> Yeah, lets let a ton of black people die because nature intended for it to happen. The same people said the same thing with slavery; nature intended us to be in chains.
> 
> Don't be retarded.



I can't believe you just evoked the legacy of slavery in response to my post.


----------



## Schwimmwagen (Jun 18, 2015)

Artillery Spam said:


> The West (and East) could actually aid Africa by simply fucking off forever.
> 
> I'm serious. Cut all aid to that area of the world, wait two decades, and then come back to see who's left.



I feel inclined to agree despite it being regarded inhumane.

I just don't see the point in investing billions for no economical benefit towards a region that is barely improving and in some areas, has no intention of improving.


----------



## LegitWaterfall (Jun 18, 2015)

Artillery Spam said:


> I can't believe you just evoked the legacy of slavery in response to my post.


It's Sylox.


----------



## Troj (Jun 18, 2015)

Schwimmwagen said:


> I feel inclined to agree despite it being regarded inhumane.
> 
> I just don't see the point in investing billions for no economical benefit towards a region that is barely improving and in some areas, has no intention of improving.



Well, I do think we need to shit or get off the pot.

We either need to commit ourselves to providing interventions and supports that have been proven to work, or we need to commit ourselves to just pulling out.

We need to learn to resist the temptation to pull a Geldorf and just do what feels good. Just throwing money at people willy-nilly rarely solves the problem, and can even make it worse. Even throwing food or medical supplies at people without proper planning and organization can end up hurting the very people you're trying to help, when those supplies fall into the hands of the bad guys.

Oh, and new article:

http://www.alternet.org/why-it-was-so-easy-rachel-dolezal-slip-black-skin


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 19, 2015)

What would be the problem of bringing in experts trained in the rules of finance and with a business acumen to make those nations on par with American or European nations, and they would come from those countries. Except by physical appearance they wouldn't look like the Americans or Europeans the people of Ghana/Cote D'Ivore/Kenya/Ethiopia are used to. The theory of pan-Africanism suggests that the people of the Diaspora would fit seamlessly into African societies and be more trusted than white Europeans. From what I've read in my textbooks and seen on the news, a difference in skin color causes negativity in people in conversation, and commerce but similarity causes trust to be built. Often times, police units need black officers to walk the beat in the black area of town to build rapaport. Thus, it sure seems to me that sending black Garveyists who wish to Return as liaisons to African nations and giving them positions of authority would make those nations function as well as their Western counterparts. Once the initial culture shock disappears and acclimation to a hotter tropical climate, I would expect a complete turnaround for so many of these countries. If the Returners were to for instance come from the Afrideutscher sections of Berlin, the efficiency of the factories and the quality of the products would skyrocket because of the Teutonic efficiency that the Germans are reputed to possess. If there are black Germans who truly want to live in their "ancestral homeland", I think they could certainly improve the quality of goods that are exported from Africa completely.

 With more innovation and efficiency, you could begin to see sluggish or dysfunctional economies begin to work and that's true of any country. But you need to bring in the magician-like strategists, coordinators, foremen, factory owners, and leaders to make it all work. And there's nothing to say that intelligence, competence, innovation, and drive only exist in one set of people.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 19, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> @ Sylox: So you want to cut foreign aid and welfare but we need to help those oversea folk who contribute nothing to our economy?
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> Personally, I wish we would go back to minding our own fuckin' business in terms of foreign aid. Let's balance the check book before we give money away. But it's something to do with the whole "I scratch your back and you scratch mine" thing. The US is not a selfless angel and we most always certainly have an ulterior motive, whether it is war, foreign aid, and the likes.



I was being sarcastic AND half serious.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 19, 2015)

Sylox said:


> I was being sarcastic AND half serious.



Who says that the aid to the country has to be just inanimate material? Have we lost sight of the fact that expert advisers and overseers are living gifts to countries that desperately need it, especially when they have a claim to some sort of spiritual connection to the lands in question?


----------



## Sylox (Jun 19, 2015)

Dude, I posted earlier the challenges that Africa faces. It's going to take more than just fucking advisers to fix this shit. We sent advisers over to fucking Iraq to help them form a government and look how that turned out.


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 19, 2015)

Sylox said:


> Dude, I posted earlier the challenges that Africa faces. It's going to take more than just fucking advisers to fix this shit. We sent advisers over to fucking Iraq to help them form a government and look how that turned out.



Duly noted. Foreign investment is necessary for a nation to advance and you may have to look beyond the immediate and obvious trade partners. African nations have rare-earth metals which are used for powering electronics which might be sold to nations that want to buy them to build and energize electronic devices. A trip to any jewelry store will almost certainly reveal some African imported gems, with diamonds especially coming from a wide variety of African mines. And I think given the increase of green energy that those who advocate solar energy would no doubt want to go to some of the hottest and brightest places on Earth to harness the light and life of the Sun.

However, this power remains untapped because some African nations will not let non-black citizens come in to own land or sell product and as of right now, they don;t have the means to do so. Which is why if those nations are to tap into the massive potential they do have, black go-betweens from Europe and America would circumvent the rules and be able to sign pacts with the governments to develop those countries. They would be more trusted because they and the people they're working with are both black and that in and of itself, makes them more trustworthy in African eyes than the Euro-derived interlopers.


----------



## Artillery Spam (Jun 19, 2015)

DarrylWolf said:


> What would be the problem of bringing in experts trained in the rules of finance and with a business acumen to make those nations on par with American or European nations, and they would come from those countries. Except by physical appearance they wouldn't look like the Americans or Europeans the people of Ghana/Cote D'Ivore/Kenya/Ethiopia are used to. The theory of pan-Africanism suggests that the people of the Diaspora would fit seamlessly into African societies and be more trusted than white Europeans. From what I've read in my textbooks and seen on the news, a difference in skin color causes negativity in people in conversation, and commerce but similarity causes trust to be built. Often times, police units need black officers to walk the beat in the black area of town to build rapaport. Thus, it sure seems to me that sending black Garveyists who wish to Return as liaisons to African nations and giving them positions of authority would make those nations function as well as their Western counterparts. Once the initial culture shock disappears and acclimation to a hotter tropical climate, I would expect a complete turnaround for so many of these countries. If the Returners were to for instance come from the Afrideutscher sections of Berlin, the efficiency of the factories and the quality of the products would skyrocket because of the Teutonic efficiency that the Germans are reputed to possess. If there are black Germans who truly want to live in their "ancestral homeland", I think they could certainly improve the quality of goods that are exported from Africa completely.
> 
> With more innovation and efficiency, you could begin to see sluggish or dysfunctional economies begin to work and that's true of any country. But you need to bring in the magician-like strategists, coordinators, foremen, factory owners, and leaders to make it all work. And there's nothing to say that intelligence, competence, innovation, and drive only exist in one set of people.



It might work. There's a minute collective of Afro-Americans residing within Accra, Ghana's capital and keystone commerce fulcrum. If I recall, there are 3,000 of them, and I'm quite certain that most (if not all) are Afro-Americans that have the wealth, determination, and intelligence that the administrative body of Ghana hoped to attract with their controversial decision to offer special visas to American slave decedents. 

Mr. Garvey, like me, did not entertain the notion that every single black person was sufficiently fit for domestic life within a sovereign black ethnostate. He didn't want a throng of undesirables surging in and dismantling the good work that he and his contingent would conduct---which is a perfectly understandable position to hold when one considers the sheer degree of ruination in which a cohort of listless and dimwitted individuals can exact upon an environment if left to their own devices. 

It's doubtful that Mr. Garvey knew of genetics during his time, but it sounds like his take on W. E. B. Du Bois' "Talented Tenth" concept would have led to a strong eugenical "upgrade" taking place within his proposed nation's gene pool as generations came and went.


----------



## Dr. Franken-Fox (Jun 19, 2015)

Arguably a lot of weeboos would qualify for the 'transracial' label, as they probably consider themselves to be an Asian trapped in a white person's body, but personally I don't think it's a legitimate type of dysphoria like with those who are transgender. If you've only been subject to a Western upbringing then there's no guarantee that your perception of Japanese culture or indeed what's it like to live as a Japanese person is even accurate, so how on Earth do you even know that you'd prefer to be Japanese if there's no way of knowing what it's like?! The same principle can be applied here with wanting to be Black.


As someone who's white, it's probably all too easy for me to think of race as an abstract or alien concept so this opinion may come off as naÃ¯ve, but I don't see why being of a certain race should have such a bearing on your identity since at the end of the day it's only the colour of your skin. There are lots of other things that define a person outside of their ethnicity and nationality, I for instance identify as white-British, but that doesn't mean I let that define me and I certainly don't think being of a different race or nationality would make me any more or less of a person.


----------



## funky3000 (Jun 20, 2015)

I was reading cheezburger today, and found a comic with bears and I didn't understand why it was title'd "This Comic Has Absolutely No Connection to Any Event in the News at the Moment" but then I remembered this thread.







And I smirked a little.


----------



## AzaraththeFolf (Jun 20, 2015)

Boop. I give 0 fucks since she didnt harm anyone and actually helped a cause


----------



## Batty Krueger (Jun 20, 2015)

AzaraththeFolf said:


> Boop. I give 0 fucks since she didnt harm anyone and actually helped a cause



BUT SHE PRETENDED TO BE BLACK! WHAT ARE YOU NOT GETTING?!


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Jun 20, 2015)

"I say I'm a (...) so that makes me a (...)" sure is getting popular.


----------



## Astrium (Jun 20, 2015)

Fluffified said:


> That lady makes me angry.
> 
> I actually laughed a bit when I first saw her on the news. The news crew asked her if that was her real father (since she was claiming this one african american dude was her real father). She stuttered and couldn't say jack crap, totally bad at lying/hiding her lies. I didn't believe her b.s. either. I can let the changing race thing slide, but to disown her own parents that raised herâ€¦.that's just sick and wrong. Michael Jackson went white and even did weird plastic surgery to his nose but he didn't disown his own parents! (apparently he had a skin conditions but others speculate that it was due to skin bleaching, soooo yeah; but either or, it still works >///<")



Actually, it was both. His disease was slowly turning his skin white, starting with his hands (that's why the iconic glove came to be) and he just went "Fuck it!" and had it bleached to save time.


----------



## Sylox (Jun 20, 2015)

AzaraththeFolf said:


> Boop. I give 0 fucks since she didnt harm anyone and actually helped a cause



She was a white woman who pretended to be black even though she was white and conned a shit ton of people. You don't think there is anything wrong with that?


----------



## DarrylWolf (Jun 20, 2015)

I am beginning to think that the Duboisian view of not quite being American and having a sort of twoness is accurate. Given the power of the NAACP, it's safe to say that being stuck in a nation where you can't be accepted but you have no hope of leaving is the issue. With that in mind, I realized in my studies why people are so leery of interlopers like Dolezel. Of course, the NAACP exists to promote orthodoxy so they also people bringing outside opinions in, as though being exposed to conservative or libertarian views are of the devil. And so Dolezel figured reasonably that blackness is a lifestyle because any group that has apostates must have converts


----------

