# Worldbuilding vs. Fanfictioning / real-world fictioning



## Blake (Feb 21, 2009)

Hello all,  I've been lurking here for a while, and I've seen a great variety of posts and stories and settings. (I hope this is the right place to ask this)

I'm wondering how many of you do world building for custom settings, vs. how many like to write fan fictions or write more historical or modern fiction with characters in our real world.

Moreover, I'm wondering what you think the benefits of each are?  Specifically for furry fiction.

World building, it seems like the benefits are additional levels of originality and story- and it's more conveneint to make up your own races, I think (one of my favourite parts).

Fanfictioning, it seems like you benefit form having an interesting world that many people are familiar with (which helps you focus straight on story), and that can already be custom tailored for many types of characters (but is perhaps slightly limited by canon).

Real world fiction, maybe like fanfictioning, but it seems like it could require more research (I mean the kind where you take a real era and basically replace humans with furries and then don't really go ito it- sort of like lackadaisy)- and world building certainly requires that as well.  Of course, if you're trying hard to stick to canon, I'm sure fanfics can be researching tasks themselves unless you have a perfect memory.

Have I pretty much hit them all (I doubt it), or is there more to this than meets the eye?


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## Shouden (Feb 21, 2009)

yeah. fanfic is hard to write, because you have to make sure you're true to the series your writing in. And with Real World writing...that can be a little harder, but I find real world writing easier than fanfiction because, I mean, I live in the real world.

But, my favorite is creating my own worlds. It allows for a lot more freedom, but you also have to set rules to your universes so it doesn't get out of hand. Other than that, you can pretty much do whatever you want while in your own world.


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## Blake (Feb 21, 2009)

Shouden said:


> yeah. fanfic is hard to write, because you have to make sure you're true to the series your writing in. And with Real World writing...that can be a little harder, but I find real world writing easier than fanfiction because, I mean, I live in the real world.



That makes sense.  But then if you really get into the politics of it, or do something historical, that's some major research.  Of course, with a real-world based story, if you mess something up it's alright (nobody will get particularly mad), but you always want to honour the original creators of a world in a fanfic as much as possible by being true to the series, as you said.  I guess there are more emotional consequences to messing up with a fanfic- the Harry Potter movies' divergence have irritated me enough to know that's true 



> But, my favorite is creating my own worlds. It allows for a lot more freedom, but you also have to set rules to your universes so it doesn't get out of hand.



The rules are my favourite part. :-D  But then again, I'm a big science geek, so I love creating interesting laws and then exploring their implications- it makes for some of the most original story ideas without even trying.  I've figured out some wickedly cool things by accident while trying to explain something that's barely related.

What kinds of worlds do you tend to create?


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## Shouden (Feb 21, 2009)

I actually have two worlds that I use a lot. (by the way, I like making rules too, it gives the world more depth). The first world is my Alien/Fantasy where aliens and griffins are aliens and have many different species, and there's a Universal government that tries to keep everything in line. I call this world my Great Alliance Universe (the Great Alliance is the name of the universal government)

My other world has Earth set as a city on the Continent of Sol (Sol is the name of our sun.) All the other planets are also cities and their moons are like suburbs. In this world, the people are anthros, (save a few unevolved breeds...I just realized that such a thing would make fun of Evolution, but whatever), they've proven Evolution occurred to a certain degree. Oh, and there was a big war that left Earth as the last city on Sol, because it's set in a deep crater. This world I call the Cityscape Universe.


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## Blake (Feb 21, 2009)

Shouden said:


> unevolved breeds...I just realized that such a thing would make fun of Evolution



I don't understand what you mean.  How would it make fun of Evolution?  In context, it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with real evolution (as in IRL evolution... no such thing as "unevolved", it's all about being suited for this environment or that- we're all equals with regards to evolution: a wolf is good at being a wolf, a fish is good at being a fish, a bacterium is good at what they do, horses, people, plants, fungi, we're all good at what we do- evolution is just the process of becoming adapted to a role in the environment.  It's humans who make value judgements and say that one thing is more or less "evolved" when they really mean more or less "advanced in our opinion"- basically, evolution doesn't have an opinion, it's just a process of change.  I think pop-culture gives people the wrong idea about what it is all about.).  Sorry, long segue.


The Great Alliance Universe sounds very interesting.


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## Shouden (Feb 21, 2009)

Well, I have deer, buffalo, caribou, and cattle still in their feral forms. the gist of the Theory of Evolution is survival of the fittest, and these species are the main food source for the inhabitants of Sol. Evolution would suggest they would evolve out of their feral forms, but in this instance, it's as if they stayed the way they are so that the greater species could survive. Although, the fact that they stayed in their four-legged forms suggests that's the highest form of their species.

But, I will deal with all that in the third book in the series. I'm still working on the first book and several little stories here and there.


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## Blake (Feb 21, 2009)

Shouden said:


> the gist of the Theory of Evolution is survival of the fittest, and these species are the main food source for the inhabitants of Sol. Evolution would suggest they would evolve out of their feral forms,



That's not the gist of evolution, that's the gist of natural selection- natural selection is the motive force behind evolution, but that also includes human selection and environmental pressures (like breeding, and availability of food).

The interpretation isn't quite right though- the fact is that it's not about what's objectively the fittest, but what is the fittest at taking advantage of a certain niche, or job, available in the environment.

If there's grass, then the fittest animal in that niche is the one eating the grass.  If there are things eating the grass, then another niche opens up as the things eating the things eating the grass.  Some of those grass eaters (but not all) will evolve to be carnivores until, and only until, that niche is full (then there's no room for anything else to move in).

You can think of it like the human job market.  If we have too many plumbers, they start competing for business, and start charging less and less - basic supply and demand economics- the plumber's wage becomes very small, and people stop becoming plumbers because they don't want to be broke.  Some of the existing plumbers (those worse at the job) either go broke or get a new job.

When a niche opens up, something evolves to fill it.  It's sort of like "if you build it, they will come".  Survival of the fittest is about best filling those roles that are available.  If some of those grass eaters aren't good at eating grass, something else will come along and evolve to eat grass more efficiently, and put those old grass eaters out of a job (extinction).

There are many examples of this having occurred on Earth, even in recent history- such as rabbits in Australia.  The rabbits didn't become wolves, as there were already animals in that niche- they just do the grass eating and multiplying job better than the marsupials, so they're pushing them out of business.  If the marsupials were doing a good enough job at it to begin with, rabbits never could have thrived there, as there wouldn't have been food left over for them.



> but in this instance, it's as if they stayed the way they are so that the greater species could survive. Although, the fact that they stayed in their four-legged forms suggests that's the highest form of their species.



It's not realistic with regards to IRL evolution, but that's a pretty interesting philosophical take.  You'd have to kind of rework the rules of evolution a bit, but it is interesting.

Maybe we can discuss this further over PM?  I don't want to get too off topic.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 21, 2009)

I find fanfiction incredibly stupid, to be honest.

Yes, it could be hard, if people actually cared about writing to the theme.. but so many just don't.  If you want to know what Fanfiction has become, go to fanfiction.net and try to find a good story.  You'll find that the most popular authors are those who are actually horribly BAD at fanfic.

So I prefer, in all cases, to write in my own world.


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## ScottyDM (Feb 22, 2009)

*Fan-fic Pros:*

As a newbie writer you have fewer skills to master and so can improve faster: no world or character creation issues, no backstory to artfully blend into the story, and no detailed descriptions.
As a writer you automatically have a built-in fan base.
As a writer you can make yourself the star in your favorite storyworld, date all the hotties (or at least have them drooling all over you), impregnate (or be impregnated by) your favorite hotty, teach the experts in that storyworld a few new tricks, save the day at least once an hour, make yourself indispensable to all, and walk on water.
As a reader you are assured the stories you uncover use a storyworld and characters you care about. The only real challenge is finding stories that aren't a massive Mary-Sue, and are well written, or at least don't suck too much.

*Fan-Fic Cons:*

As a writer you don't have much freedom to do new things: for example, try to turn everyone's favorite heroine into a lush and a lesbian and you'll be crucified.
As a writer there is no future in fan-fics. You can't sell your stories and you might even get sued for letting others read your stories for free.
As a reader if you're not familiar with the original, the fan-fic won't make much sense because backstory and most descriptions will be missing.
As a reader you have to put up with far more Mary-Sueism than readers of other genres.
As a reader you'll stumble across some amazing crap, such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer teams up with Luke Skywalker for a little romance and to battle invading Klingons in Middle Earth... with elves.
And finally, as a writer all that fan attention might lead you to believe you're a better writer than you really are.


*Original Stories*

There are four types of authors, although these types actually blend into each other.

Hates to do any research and doesn't trust his own creativity so doesn't try.
Loves research but unable to create much of anything original.
Hates to do research but is super creative.
Loves research and is super creative.

I've seen vids of Diana Gabaldon speaking at book signings and she said she adored mysteries, but didn't feel she was capable of creating the plot twists necessary to write a good mystery, or keep track of all the clues, hints, and other devices. However, she was a professional researcher and knew her way around a library. So she decided to write historical novels because if she found she didn't know something, she only had to run down to the library to look it up. Her first novel was _Outlander_. *The point of this story is to suggest that you write to your strength, at least for your first efforts.*

*A maxim of writing is to write what you know, but that can also be turned around into know what you write.* That is, if you don't know something now, either create it or do some research.

This means if you hate research and feel world building is a little beyond your grasp, then set your stories in your home town and in the present time period.

Others can do what they feel comfortable doing.

Scotty


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## Blake (Feb 22, 2009)

redcard said:


> I find fanfiction incredibly stupid, to be honest.



Thanks for the feedback.

I've never written in it, and it seems anti-creative to me in a way- although I can see how it helps people get started.  And I'm sure there are some pro's to it.




> If you want to know what Fanfiction has become, go to fanfiction.net and try to find a good story.



Haha, I think I'm talking more about professional fan fiction, or that which strives to be- like recognized and published.  R.A. Salvador, and various Star Wars books, 'Hook' by Terry Brooks- all fan fiction, strictly speaking (although there's a tiny bit of world building that goes on in some of them- I don't know that there's ever anything that's 100% fan fiction).



> You'll find that the most popular authors are those who are actually horribly BAD at fanfic.



I've been hard pressed to find writing I like in libraries.  Outside of Canonical literature like Conrad, or classics like Narnia and the Hobbit, I'm not very much guaranteed to like much of anything- I was siurprised to like Harry Potter.



> So I prefer, in all cases, to write in my own world.



I agree.  Thanks.


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## Blake (Feb 22, 2009)

Wow Scotty, amazingly insightful feedback.  Thank you very much.  "And finally, as a writer all that fan attention might lead you to believe you're a better writer than you really are."  That one sounds particularly dangerous... setting a new writer up for a possible fall.  "This means if you hate research and feel world building is a little beyond your grasp, then set your stories in your home town and in the present time period."  Doing background character development can be tricky to learn, since it's hard to get help on that one.  With other aspects, though, we can always help out the newbies with suggestions about magic, history, etc.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 22, 2009)

Blake said:


> Haha, I think I'm talking more about professional fan fiction, or that which strives to be- like recognized and published.  R.A. Salvador, and various Star Wars books, 'Hook' by Terry Brooks- all fan fiction, strictly speaking (although there's a tiny bit of world building that goes on in some of them- I don't know that there's ever anything that's 100% fan fiction).



It's not fanfiction when you are paid to write in it, or are licensed or allowed to write in it.  It's canonical.  

Even Hook went around the "securing the rights and making sure copyright was not an issue" before production. 

So it's worth noting that there, by rule, cannot BE "professional fanfiction", since technically,for most signers of the Berne copyright convention, Fanfiction is illegal without permission.  

That's right.  I said it.  Fanfic is illegal without permission


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## Blake (Feb 22, 2009)

redcard said:


> It's not fanfiction when you are paid to write in it, or are licensed or allowed to write in it.  It's canonical.



It may or may not be decreed canon by the creator, but doing it legally doesn't change the fact that it is fiction written in somebody else's original world and with [largely] somebody else's characters.  New work based on original work that does not belong to one written primarily on account of one being a fan of that work.

Legality or no, permission or no, that's a technicality that doesn't change the nature of the work itself.

There have been fictions written with license or permission only to have that revoked.  Did they transition from canon to fan fiction?  How about the illegal works that are later negotiated and licensed?  Do they transition to canon and stop being fan fictions due to the stroke of a pen?  No, I don't think one could really argue that.

Either way, canon is kind of irrelevant as to whether the work was written as fan fiction to begin with- it's the spirit in which the work was written.  
Fan art can become and be canonical by whim of the creator- it's just not relevant because it's not a dichotomy.  This apple is red, are all apples red?  Hook most certainly and definitely was fan fiction- rare published and legal fan fiction, but fan fiction none the less.  With the majority of Star Wars books, it's the same way.

The only cases I could say it would be otherwise is if the original creator specifically told the writer what to write, and the writer was only doing it as a job, not having any particular interest in the world that would compel this action otherwise.

For example, I would say that I have never drawn harry potter fan art, but I've drawn Harry Potter art that was commissioned, indirectly, through WB, and I was told what to draw and how to draw it.  On the other hand, if I drew some Harry Potter fan art, and then sold it to WB, it would remain fan art because it was drawn as fan art.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Fan fiction* (alternately referred to as *fanfiction*, *fanfic*, *FF* or *fic*) is a broadly-defined term for stories about characters or settings written by fans of the original work, rather than by the original creator. Works of fan fiction are rarely commissioned or authorized by the original work's owner, creator, or publisher; also, they are almost never professionally published.



Maybe not a definitive source, but neither is the word.  Call it what you want, certainly I don't want to tell you what to do, but, no offense, I don't think you can dictate what I call it.


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## Shouden (Feb 22, 2009)

actually, I don't think Fanfic is illegal unless you actually try to make money off of it. At least, most Copyright holders don't care if you use their material if you're just doing it for fun and for free. (although, they might bitch if said fanfic it's incredibly stupid). But you do have to get permission from the copyright owner if you want to make money off of it. (so, some of the Commission art on FA would be a violation of copyright law.)

And by law, anything that is written or typed is copyrighted. This means, as soon as you write down an original character or world, it becomes your property by law. However, it is good to have an actual copyright from the government, but they can be expensive. So, another good thing to do is keep a record of all the characters and worlds and stories you've created with the dates on which they were created. If you have a computer, and use that to type a story, your computer will automatically record when the document was created.

This is another advantage of creating your own world. 'Cause you usually don't have to deal with copyrights and violating them.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 22, 2009)

Shouden said:


> actually, I don't think Fanfic is illegal unless you actually try to make money off of it.



That's an urban legend.

When you create a derivative work without permission, you have created a copyright violation.  It has nothing to do with taking money.


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## Shouden (Feb 22, 2009)

maybe not to the law, it's not about making money. But to most of the major copyright holders, it is.


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## Blake (Feb 22, 2009)

Regarding copyright law, it is technically illegal to distribute something like that, but in order to take you to court and get any money from you, the copyright holder generally has to demonstrate that there were damages.  

As far as the internet goes, the Copyright holder could rather easily get your work taken off almost any server, and possibly even get your ISP to stop providing you internet access due to your criminal behavior (depending on where you live and your ISP).

Otherwise, the best they can typically do is issue a cease and desist.  If you didn't cease and desist, they could take you to court, and easily get a ruling in their favour, which would cost both of you several thousand dollars- then take you to court again to make you pay for the legal fees of the prior court case.  So, basically they could screw you over, but not benefit from it financially.  In the end, that's generally too much of a waste of time for most publishers to worry about.

Due to lack of enforcement, fanfiction writing is legal de-facto as long as you don't make any money from it or otherwise do anything so lude or libelous that it could damage the author- if you do that, then you're pretty much SOL in court.  Just don't tick anybody off.


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## Shouden (Feb 22, 2009)

exactly. Again, though, if you're writing in your own universe and using your own characters, it's hard to piss yourself off. (although, I've done it a few times) But it generally keeps you out of trouble.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 22, 2009)

Blake said:


> Regarding copyright law, it is technically illegal to distribute something like that, but in order to take you to court and get any money from you, the copyright holder generally has to demonstrate that there were damages.
> 
> As far as the internet goes, the Copyright holder could rather easily get your work taken off almost any server, and possibly even get your ISP to stop providing you internet access due to your criminal behavior (depending on where you live and your ISP).
> 
> ...



Well, just be forewarned.

There are authors that WILL go out and do precisely that if you write fanfic in their worlds.  

I stand by my initial statement though.  There's nothing you can take credit for with fanfic writing.  You can't resume it.  You can't count it on your CV.  Major publishers and agents do NOT count it as work.

Even if you have 30 pieces of fanfiction and one short story making the rounds when an agent picks you up for your novel.. you only get credit for that one short story that's moving around looking for a home.  I'd rather have 31 pieces of short story moving around, and have the ability to give that on my resume, and possibly up my value.


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## Blake (Feb 22, 2009)

redcard said:


> Well, just be forewarned.
> 
> There are authors that WILL go out and do precisely that if you write fanfic in their worlds.



Certainly, there are, those are just rare- and if you go with an author's world, the author of whom you know doesn't mind (J.K., for example- or Star Wars [as long as you don't write porn]), then you're safe.  

I never write anything remotely resembling fan fiction, though, so I'm quite beyond safe in that regard.

Like Shouden said, world building keeps one out of trouble.



> There's nothing you can take credit for with fanfic writing.  You can't resume it.  You can't count it on your CV.  Major publishers and agents do NOT count it as work.



Unless it's one of those extremely rare cases where it's legal.  

Still, I'm just not really in to other people's worlds- I like some other fiction, but I'm hard pressed to say I'm a fan of anything.  It's best to try to do something unique, IMO.

I just wanted to make the legality and practice clear.


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## ScottyDM (Feb 22, 2009)

redcard said:


> So it's worth noting that there, by rule, cannot BE "professional fanfiction", since technically,for most signers of the Berne copyright convention, Fanfiction is illegal without permission.


Not if you live in North Korea. ;-) 

Yea, _Star Trek_ books, and the like, are written by hired guns who are doing the novel as a "work for hire" (that's a legal term), which means their employer (Paramount Studios in the case of _Star Trek_) owns the copyright, not the author. Since Paramount owns the original copyrights too it's all very simple. Also, since these hired guns are not always fans _and_ they are doing it by permission--then by definition their work is not a fan-fic.

*A fan-fic is a derivative work produced by a fan of the original, without permission to do so by the copyright owner of the original work.*

There's been some noise about a skilled writer of fan-fics having his or her work picked up by the copyright owner and published--but I have seen _no evidence_ this is anything other than wishful thinking by fan-fic writers.

The complication is that any fan-fic has dual copyright owners: the original creator of the storyworld and the fan-fic's author.


*Re: All comments about legality of fan-fics:*

Fan-fics are illegal, but many copyright holders don't bother to enforce their rights as long as the fan-fic author is not trying to make money and not abusing their characters. Still, there is _no future_ in writing fan-fics. So write something original.

*Besides, one of the nice thing about this fandom is that there's so much original work and original thought.*

Scotty


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## M. LeRenard (Feb 22, 2009)

> Certainly, there are, those are just rare


I would totally be in this category.  I hate reading other peoples' interpretations of other peoples' works... I can't imagine how turned-off I'd be by other peoples' interpretations of MY works.  Not that I'm flattering myself enough to think other people would want to write fanfiction of anything I'll ever write.  But still....  I don't care if people thought I was an uppity prick; I'd make it very clear what I want with my copyright.
Don't know if I'd want to go to the trouble of actually filing lawsuits against people, though.  I'd just be really negative if asked about it, and hope that would deter people.  Cowardly, yes.  But it would make me feel better.

Except the one thing I read that was based on another work that I actually really enjoyed was Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, but I don't think that counts since it really has very little to do with Hamlet.  And it was hilarious.  And good.

One thing I'd like to add: historical fiction can often become simply fanfiction for real-world events.  I mean, you're playing around with historical figures (canon), giving them your own personalities, etc., but you still generally write the work from an insert's point of view (though some don't: Gary Jennings, for example, in his book The Journeyer).  So it's easy to fall into the exact same traps as when you're writing fanfiction.  It's just as hard to pull off good historical fiction as it is to pull off good fanfiction, I guess is what I'm saying.


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## Shouden (Feb 22, 2009)

well, said, Scotty. It is fun to write fanfic sometimes, but, for me at least, it's never intended to be anything more than some fun...and maybe a literary exercise.


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## TakeWalker (Feb 22, 2009)

ScottyDM said:


> *Re: All comments about legality of fan-fics:*
> 
> Fan-fics are illegal, but many copyright holders don't bother to enforce their rights as long as the fan-fic author is not trying to make money and not abusing their characters. Still, there is _no future_ in writing fan-fics. So write something original.



I'd just like to punctuate this. There's a difference between _legality_ and _what people are willing to spend time and money taking to court_.


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## Shouden (Feb 23, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> I would totally be in this category.  I hate reading other peoples' interpretations of other peoples' works... I can't imagine how turned-off I'd be by other peoples' interpretations of MY works.  Not that I'm flattering myself enough to think other people would want to write fanfiction of anything I'll ever write.  But still....  I don't care if people thought I was an uppity prick; I'd make it very clear what I want with my copyright.
> Don't know if I'd want to go to the trouble of actually filing lawsuits against people, though.  I'd just be really negative if asked about it, and hope that would deter people.  Cowardly, yes.  But it would make me feel better.
> 
> Except the one thing I read that was based on another work that I actually really enjoyed was Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, but I don't think that counts since it really has very little to do with Hamlet.  And it was hilarious.  And good.
> ...




Personally, I'm not at all sure how I would feel about someone doing a fanfic of my stuff....I might hold like a contest or something where people can submit fanfic stories placed in my universes, but then I could pick only the best ones and post them on my site or something. I think, if I thought it was good and stayed true to my worlds, then I would be okay with it.


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## Blake (Feb 23, 2009)

ScottyDM said:
			
		

> Also, since these hired guns are not always fans _and_ they are doing it by permission--then by definition their work is not a fan-fic.



Without permission + fan = definitely fanfic
Without permission + not fan = why are you writing this?
With Permission + fan = fanfic
With Permission + not fan = not fanfic
By Order + fan = arguably not fanfic
By Order + not fan = Definitely not fanfic

There's a distinct difference between permission and something that has been specifically ordered.

Some of those startrek novels may have been specifically mapped out and contracted- ordered- by the copyright holders for purposes entirely of profit rather than fandom.  Those are not fanfics.

Most others are.




> A fan-fic is a derivative work produced by a fan of the original, without permission to do so by the copyright owner of the original work.



If you aren't a fan, then naturally it's not fanfic.  But permission is irrelevant.  By that logic, then there's no Harry Potter fanfiction, as J.K. gave her blessing.  Also, there's no non-pornographic Starwars fanfiction, as Lucas gave his (providing it's not pornographic).

That's rediculous, and contary to the popular definition of fan fiction.

Fan fiction can be done with permission- it's all in the motivation.  Why is the person writing it?  Is it because the person is a fan of the series, or because the person was specifically ordered to do it?  If the later, then it's arguably not fan fiction even if the person is a fan.  If the former, and it's not the person's original world, it's fan fiction. 



> There's been some noise about a skilled writer of fan-fics having his or her work picked up by the copyright owner and published



This is how many, if not most, screenplays start.  Somebody writes it as a fan fiction, gets a production company interested, and then they negotiate the rights.



> but I have seen _no evidence_ this is anything other than wishful thinking by fan-fic writers.



Maybe on the internet, but in real life, actually obtaining the rights to do something is often an afterthought for things that are produced.



> Still, there is _no future_ in writing fan-fics. So write something original.



With this I agree.





			
				M. Le Renard said:
			
		

> One thing I'd like to add: historical fiction can often become simply fanfiction for real-world events. I mean, you're playing around with historical figures (canon), giving them your own personalities, etc., but you still generally write the work from an insert's point of view (though some don't: Gary Jennings, for example, in his book The Journeyer). So it's easy to fall into the exact same traps as when you're writing fanfiction. It's just as hard to pull off good historical fiction as it is to pull off good fanfiction, I guess is what I'm saying.



That's a very good point, and well put.  That's why I kind of consider them similar in certain ways.  Although, of course, reality holds no copyright.


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## GraemeLion (Feb 23, 2009)

Blake said:


> This is how many, if not most, screenplays start.  Somebody writes it as a fan fiction, gets a production company interested, and then they negotiate the rights.



Name a single screenplay that started with this without an intent to secure the rights.

Go ahead. I'm really interested in hearing you back this up.  I know plenty of screenwriters, and while they do poke around at their own screenplays in their favorite "realms", they tend to write more or less summaries when they go query for full writes.


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## Blake (Feb 23, 2009)

redcard said:


> Name a single screenplay that started with this without an intent to secure the rights.



Please, there's no need to be aggressive here.

Without an intent?  There probably have been some, but I doubt I could find them, and it wouldn't matter.  I'm sure that nearly all professional screenplays I could find were written with production in mind, which certainly implies an intent, barring total stupidity, to secure rights.

I'm sure there are plenty of fanfic writers who hold delusions of their abilities to obtain rights too, and thus could be said to have an intent.

My point is just that the mere absence of rights does not a fanfic make, nor does the mere presence make it anything else- rights are irrelevant to the spirit and intent of the writing.

Either way, you didn't address my point about authors who have given their blessings.  Fan fictions aren't inherently illegal- they just usually are.

I'm not defending fan fictions, I don't care enough about the subject to, but that legalistic definition is just narrow beyond that of common usage, and moreover, highly inconsistent with common usage.

If somebody writes, as a fan, in a world that was created by another original author, that's a fan fiction.  It's fiction written by a fan rather than the original author, namely because the person who wrote it was a fan.

If the person wasn't a fan, then it's not fan fiction.  If the fiction wasn't written because the person was a fan- such as at gun point via dictation- even if the person was a fan, I'd say it's not a fan fic.

The definition is funky because it comes from the spirit in which the work was written.  Legality, however, has nothing to do with it.

It really isn't worth arguing any further.  

You can call all fan fictions illegal (as an approximation, that's mostly right), you can claim that work transfigures itself magically upon the procurement of rights into something all together different (which makes little sense), and that the work never was fan fiction if the author intended to get rights in the future and, by the fates, was bound to succeed (which makes no sense).  You should know, however, that this definition is inconsistent and incorrect with regards to common usage.

I may stretch it a little along the edges, but I do so for the sake of consistency of principle.  You're doing just the opposite, and stretching the definition to the tearing point in trying to fit it to legislation thus making it internally inconsistent.

I agree with you in everything except your definition of fan fiction- and on that point I will not argue further.


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## Gar-Yulong (Feb 23, 2009)

I have to say, a long time ago I preferred just fanfictioning the hell out of things, but I've consciously tried to wean myself off of that with quite a degree of success. Worldbuilding in itself is very fun, especially when you take unconventional methods to doing it.

Like sitting down with someone you know very well with a 'blank slate' world of sorts and just roleplaying, filling it out as you go.

I still have a habit of borrowing some things from existing worlds that I like, but don't we all do that just a wee bit?


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## Shouden (Feb 23, 2009)

yeah, I love trying to create unique characters and worlds and do things that have just never been done before. So far, I think I've done a good job at that.

I also like writing stories that make the reader think. I always find those stories a little more entertaining, because they get you involved in the story.

And yes, I've stolen a few things from other universes. Example: I'm writing a series right now, where the main character has some personality quirks stolen from Major Motoko from the Ghost in the Shell franchise. The trick though, is try and hide the parts you stole in a unique character or world.


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## Blake (Feb 24, 2009)

"The trick though, is try and hide the parts you stole in a unique character or world."

Hehe, right you are Shouden, as with any art- there's arguably nothing truly original that isn't simply random.

Better yet, though, try to change it just a little bit.  For example, toss a few ideas in a blender and mix well, and then touch them up a bit afterwards to make them your own.

Wizards + spaceships... Blend... wizard spaceships... the ships themselves are wizards.  Originality!

Okay, silly example, but you two are of course right- we always end up borrowing from other places, even if inadvertently.


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## Shouden (Feb 24, 2009)

yeah, but this is why reading and watching your favorite show is good. Sometimes you can pick up some different techniques from them, and when you toss in your own flavor to it, you've got a unique style.


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## ScottyDM (Feb 26, 2009)

Blake said:


> > There's been some noise about a skilled writer of fan-fics having his or her work picked up by the copyright owner and published
> 
> 
> This is how many, if not most, screenplays start.  Somebody writes it as a fan fiction, gets a production company interested, and then they negotiate the rights.
> ...


Nice counterpoints, but show me the evidence. Many? Most? Show me more than one. Can you even find one example?

Fiction writers (novels, plays, screenplays) create it and write it and the only permission necessary is from the writer--who is the original creator. If a movie producer wants to show a can of his favorite fizzy beverage he might then want to ask permission (or more likely ask for payment). If a movie production company buys the rights to a novel then they hire writers to transform the novel into a screenplay. But no additional rights are necessary because the work of transformation is a "work for hire".

"Work for hire" is a legal term and it means that an employer pays an employee to create something and all rights to that thing belong to the employer. For example my name is on US patent #5003412, but I have no rights to that patent because I was a paid employee when I did the work. When George Lucas hires dozens of creative people to make sketches, design sets and costumes, write music, and even help with the script--all those people are doing it as a "work for hire" and Lucas retains legal rights to everything they produce.

As soon as someone starts using characters and situations from someone else's work, then it gets complicated. If you write a _Star Wars_ fan-fic you are not free to do anything you want with it and neither is Lucas.



Blake said:


> If you aren't a fan, then naturally it's not fanfic.  But permission is irrelevant.  By that logic, then there's no Harry Potter fanfiction, as J.K. gave her blessing.  Also, there's no non-pornographic Starwars fanfiction, as Lucas gave his (providing it's not pornographic).


Telling the fandom they won't be sued if they produce fan-fics is _not_ the same as giving them permission. In the case of Rowling and Lucas I seriously doubt they imply any transfer of rights with their "permission".



Blake said:


> Fan fictions aren't inherently illegal- they just usually are.


Actually. Yes they are illegal. Even fan-fics of works by Rowling and Lucas. We know you won't be prosecuted if you do such work, but try selling it.


Why are we beating this particular dead horse? Didn't I read that you're not really a fan of fan-fics? Neither am I. Now I have produced an original character who's the younger cousin of the main character in a story I admired. These two gentlemen share last names and taste in women. However they inhabit completely different storyworlds.

*My advice to new writers is to use fan-fics to practice your writing chops if you must, then do original work.*


*New Subject*

One of the things I've been doing is taking locations here on earth and using them as the inspiration for my stories. Reality is not always convenient. If I need a creepy old rundown former state hospital for the mentally deficient, I make it up as a composite of several such facilities. Then I locate it where I need it based on satellite photos and am careful to not be too specific with descriptions and directions so the exact location is not recognizable. I might name a town, but say it's a 20 minute drive from the facility.

When I time shift my stories (typically into the near future) then I feel free to modify certain aspects of named existing locations. For example I put a beach boardwalk in Ventura California where the fairgrounds are now. Not sure what happened to the fairgrounds. I guess they moved them closer to Oxnard.  

Scotty


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## TakeWalker (Feb 26, 2009)

ScottyDM said:


> As soon as someone starts using characters and situations from someone else's work, then it gets complicated. If you write a _Star Wars_ fan-fic you are not free to do anything you want with it and neither is Lucas.



This was a great post, but these three words gave me pause. Care to elaborate?


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## GraemeLion (Feb 26, 2009)

TakeWalker said:


> This was a great post, but these three words gave me pause. Care to elaborate?



Because Lucas didn't compensate you or request you do it.

It's not a work for hire.  It's a derivative work, yes, but in the US (and other nations that are signatores  to the Berne convention), simply violating someone's copyright doesn't mean they own your work.  It means that your work violates copyright law.

Think of it this way.  You write the Great American Star Wars Sequel.  Lucas sees it, and frowns.  He takes you to court, but later, he comes up and says "Ya know.. I want to make this into a movie."  You STILL did the work.  It's still written by you.   When he gives you permission, it becomes a legal copyrighted work.  Now, the only way he can hold the copyright on it is if it is a work-for-hire.     And for it to be a work for hire, there must be a contract/agreement.   Even if it's done after the fact. . . you still have to give him rights, as the author, to your work.  

This is why most studios and publishers will simply shred whatever comes to them.  That way, if by some odd chance they publish something that looks similar to something they were sent, they cannot be sued for not gaining the rights.  

It's an either or thing.  Either the work is illegal, OR the work is an allowed derivative work under work-for-hire clauses of copyright law.


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## Blake (Feb 26, 2009)

ScottyDM said:
			
		

> Can you even find one example?



Perhaps if I cared enough to look 



> But no additional rights are necessary because the work of transformation is a "work for hire".
> 
> "Work for hire" is a legal term...



Umm... OK.  No idea where that came from or how it's related... as a contract artist, I'm quite familiar with works for hire.



> Telling the fandom they won't be sued if they produce fan-fics is _not_ the same as giving them permission. In the case of Rowling and Lucas I seriously doubt they imply any transfer of rights with their "permission".



Look into creative commons.  There are many different kinds of permissions- ranging from all rights, to very limited rights.  In the context of one giving one's blessing to fan fictions, one is approximately releasing one's work under the creative commons license requiring attribution and prohibiting commercial use.  Obviously it would take a court case to determine the specifics for any particular instance- if the blessing or permission is any matter of public record, however, it will stand up in most courts.  The author is probably also perfectly capable of revoking that permission, of course, depending on the particular wording.

My point was *not* that they have the rights to publish the material as conventional authors and turn a profit- they most certainly do not in most cases- but that the activity in itself is not illegal with permission and remains a fan fiction despite not being illegal (within its limited scope).




> Actually. Yes they are illegal. Even fan-fics of works by Rowling and Lucas.



No, no they aren't.  Again, you don't seem to understand the concept of limited rights in this context.  Lucas very clearly released the rights to use the universe for anything non-pornographic (and I believe non-commercial, and there are probably a few other requirements).

Having limited rights is not the same as having full rights.  Obviously, granted these limited rights, one cannot sell one's work.  However, that does make the execution and use of this derivative work, so long as it conforms to those rights, _legal_.

And if that's not enough, there are worlds for which the rights have been released entirely into the public domain due to expiration of copyright, or release by the authors.  Use of these worlds and characters is still fan fiction.

Sherlock Holmes is a great example- an intellectual property teetering on the edge of being completely public domain.  Books are starting to be published using the characters, because the technical owners of the last works still covered under copyright are futilely clawing to hold onto it (and only in the US, by the way- in the UK and Canada it's public domain)

I'm sorry, but arguing that all forms of fan fiction are illegal is patently absurd.

Arguing that all forms of fan fiction are tedious mockery of the originals, and not worthy of being written- sure, you can make that argument if you want (I don't know that I'd agree with *all* of them being that though).  But many fan fictions are legal within their domains, and some are legal across the board.

Legality is not part of the definition.  The legality horse is not only dead, but it's been composted, used as fertilizer, and grown into a whole bloody orchard of fully mature peach trees.

I could go write an _Othello_ fan fiction right now and take it to a publisher- except that, while that may be my favorite work of Shakespeare's, I don't like writing fan fiction.







> One of the things I've been doing is taking locations here on earth and using them as the inspiration for my stories.



That's a great way to do it.


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