# Why is fa down? (click for information...)



## Alkora (Dec 4, 2005)

Mysql just corrupted itself quite badly...I'm not sure if it's the version that is running or what...gushi also mentioned something about doing a tweak to the server, it may also have gone offline for a few minutes.


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## ScottBear (Dec 4, 2005)

Do you have any idea when It will be back up?


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## Tiarhlu (Dec 4, 2005)

*grumbles* Okay. Good luck.


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## Donamer (Dec 4, 2005)

Wow, that must have broken a record. Fastest up and down ever...heh.


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## Lili Fox (Dec 5, 2005)

Erf!  >.<  Man, that really sucks!   Hope things work out and all the files and hard work you did was unharmed!

*hugs*


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## Kyubi-sama (Dec 5, 2005)

can't be helped i guess -__-#


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## Dragoneer (Dec 5, 2005)

Kyubi-sama said:
			
		

> can't be helped i guess -__-#


Unfortunately some things work differently in a live environment. :/


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## Tikara (Dec 5, 2005)

Durn... it's alright, take your time. Heck if we can wait for the months that FA has been down, we can wait another day or two. xD

*slapped*


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## Dobie (Dec 5, 2005)

Bummer... Heh... and I've been waiting to post up my comic too ^^;

Ah well ^^ I can wait


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## White (Dec 5, 2005)

I guess you guys didnt take regular backups from the database cuz it was a test, too bad that happened :/


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## Alkora (Dec 5, 2005)

no, this was just for what was uploaded and people who were registered today and today only...


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## Neonflash (Dec 5, 2005)

Kinda sucky but ah well x.x hopefully when it's back up I'll be able to log into my old account [or even my new tempory would be good, registered it and it didnt work]


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## CBee (Dec 5, 2005)

Snickers.


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## TORA (Dec 5, 2005)

Why am I not surprised something went wrong? -_-


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## lil_Furball (Dec 5, 2005)

Is it cynicism?


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## beckaz (Dec 5, 2005)

Oh, come on, it's not like these guys are getting paid for what they're doing here. Whether you're surprised or not, nobody can predict how something like this will behave when you first try and set it up. So be nice.  :wink:


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## Kyubi-sama (Dec 5, 2005)

i'll be damn glad when FA comes back online, i don't care if it's some days more or so *g*


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## Suule (Dec 5, 2005)

We have the server, we have the software... All we have to do now is wait for the problems to be resolved.


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## starlite528 (Dec 5, 2005)

Computer problems.

I don't know about other people who build computers, but in all my years working with them, I have always ALWAYS had some kind of issue when putting together a new system from scratch.  You really can never tell if something is going to work the way you hope and plan.  My latest computer build, I didn't realize the microsoft is stuck in the past, requiring the use of an internal floppy disk to install a 3rd party scsi driver from floppy.  I thought I could get away with using current technology (external USB floppy drive), but NOOOOOoooooo.   I ordered a UPS to save my computer and my hair from the constant power issues we have on post here in Egypt, but that didn't work because it thinks that 50hz equals a power failure.  So I had to buy a second one.  The power supply in my box, which is a PC Power and Cooling supply, has a weird issue (not sure if it is my motherboard, an Abit AX8 or the PS) has a weird issue.  If I turn off power to the machine, it wont be able to start up unless I leave mains off for an extended period of time.

Then comes the operating system.  Whether you choose linux or Windows.  In windows, you always need to go through a bunch of bologna to download updated drivers and software, let alone the windows updates.  In linux, it's slightly less tedious if you're using a latest build.  All you really need to do for major customization is recompile a kernel for your box.

I put together a system once from brand new parts, and had to replace the motherboard right away due to it being faulty.
One guy gave me a laptop to fix that was dead.  Turns out it had a family of tiny (and also dead) roaches living inside.

My point is, and has been made by another, is that you can never expect things to go perfectly when you fire it up for the first time.  A lot of effort has been put into making this stuff work, and by God it will be done soon!


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## Suule (Dec 5, 2005)

Pretty much I agree with above. There is ALSO an issue with second/third-party software needed to run things (drivers. libraries and such) that can literaly fuck up a perfectly good system. 

In the analysis of error - the basic statistic law is that the samll errors will eventualy sum up causing a rather big error. The more complex the experiment - the bigger the error value might come out. The same laws apply to the computers it seems. 

Archaic systems as DOS were simple - most program used low-level programming to access the computer features rather than use the kernel functions. When system evolved the kernels and the drivers connected with it started to be more complex, adding more and more code to mantain, more bugs, more loose ends that could affect the effeciency of the whole machine. And now we have second-third party libs to add more bugs to that equation and we have something an engineer would call "Truly unefficient system". Still we have nothing else to replace it with at this time.



> My point is, and has been made by another, is that you can never expect things to go perfectly when you fire it up for the first time. A lot of effort has been put into making this stuff work, and by God it will be done soon!



Amen to that


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## Tabuu-Lion (Dec 5, 2005)

Good luck with getting everything back up and running again.


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## ScyStorm (Dec 5, 2005)

Donamer said:
			
		

> Wow, that must have broken a record. Fastest up and down ever...heh.



Nope, that would go to SheezyArt.


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## RTDragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Yep Sheezy art really has pissed me off over time not being able to access the site due to a downtime.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 5, 2005)

ScyStorm said:
			
		

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Eh, it's a small hitch. We'll get over it.


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## Pico (Dec 5, 2005)

So, will the accounts we created yesterday still exist when the site comes back, or will we have to register again?


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## Guppy (Dec 5, 2005)

My guess is you'll have to re-register, since the database corrupted well before any backups could be made.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 5, 2005)

Pico said:
			
		

> So, will the accounts we created yesterday still exist when the site comes back, or will we have to register again?


Everything should be fine but honestly... we don't know. We can't even figure out why mySQL is corrupting itself repeatedly, but we're fixing it. I think everything should be fine.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 5, 2005)

starlite528 said:
			
		

> My point is, and has been made by another, is that you can never expect things to go perfectly when you fire it up for the first time.  A lot of effort has been put into making this stuff work, and by God it will be done soon!


Well, the main problem? The beta server was running on a temp system tha Gushi had setup, and we had never actually run FA on the primary server. We got it up and running, and everything was smooth as far as we could tell - all systems go.

We ran it, everything was fine... for... about 20 minutes, then we ran into issues. Unfortunately, there was no real way to foresee that. Perhaps, in hindsight, we should have run a temp beta on the new system to test it out, but everything seemed to be in order, so... =/


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## falderal (Dec 5, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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I was thinking, one of my instructors said he programs SQL (, and he teaches the SQL class at my schoo,) for Kays Merchandise.

mySQL is something different, is it? Or is it based on SQL?

Anyways, mayhap you could send me the problem spots and I could catch him and see if he'll give a look over it and see what he thinks.

Just wanting to help you out for letting me put my stuff on your servers.

Let me know soon, though, as the semester is coming to a close and I may not be able to catch him after it's over.


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## WebsterLeone (Dec 5, 2005)

SQL is a method of storing data to put it simply.  mySQL is a program that impliments it.

To be honest, I doubt he deals with mySQL specifically, even if he uses SQL.  But it wouldn't hurt to ask, I suppose.


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## gryc_ueusp (Dec 5, 2005)

I assume the database is randomly corrupting with no real rhyme or reason...

:idea:
If you get stuck and can't figure out what it's doing or why, perhaps you could duplicate the setup the beta had, and slowly change it over to what the server has now.  
From there, you can figure out how and why it's freaking out.


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## Kyubi-sama (Dec 6, 2005)

webster's idea sounds interesting ^^


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## Modem Redpill (Dec 6, 2005)

Damn and just when I was gonna sign up to it...


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## wolf2600 (Dec 6, 2005)

fchan.hentaiplanet.net's been down for a couple days too.


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## shinmew (Dec 6, 2005)

what a tease this has been.............


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## Guppy (Dec 6, 2005)

Hope you figure it out, random things like this can be infuriating... double check the versions between the server and the beta... 

Goodluck.


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## Verona (Dec 6, 2005)

Oh man! Most of the Fur Affinity members have been waiting for the update and now this. Not good!


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## Dragoneer (Dec 6, 2005)

Verona said:
			
		

> Oh man! Most of the Fur Affinity members have been waiting for the update and now this. Not good!


It's a slight setback. Not weeks, not months... =P Don't worry, we'll be up soon.


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## tundra_arctic_wolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Hello Preyfar.

I wish you, Jheryn, Dragoneer and Arc the best of luck in getting FA up and running soon.

cheers,
Tundra


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## uncia2000 (Dec 6, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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Days or years, then? 
*g* _sry, 'yena ^^_

Agree w/Guppy re. double checking all s/w versions on the two platforms, but am sure y'all have that in hand.
thx


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## Darren_Zeraus (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, we've been through worse waiting for Furaffinity to come back up, I think we can wait another week or so for them to get all of this strightened out.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 7, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

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<sarcasm> _FurAffinity will be online when Duke Nukem Forever hits stores!_ </sarcasm>

*snicker*


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## uncia2000 (Dec 7, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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*floofly snow'pard headbutts @ Preyfar* :lol:

Only eight years and counting! :twisted:
http://www.3drealms.com/duke4/
"The release date... is "When it's done".  Anything else, and we mean  anything else is someone's speculation.  There is no date.  We don't know any date.  If you have a friend who claims they have "inside info", or there's some game news site, or some computer store at the mall who claims they know - they do not.  They are making it up.  There is no date.  Period"

Hey, we're not _that_ optimistic around here, are we?


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## Tiarhlu (Dec 7, 2005)

It'll be back up when Gee Dubya admits he did something wrong.


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## Verona (Dec 7, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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I hope! Because I miss it! :mrgreen:


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## Kyubi-sama (Dec 7, 2005)

i gues everyone does ^^


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## Myr (Dec 7, 2005)

Is it Halloween yet? Has two weeks pasted yet? Honestly, with all the bug squashing and attention to code that was said around here and on the beta, this time I'm surprised. The delays weren't surprising, but the up and down in a matter of hours was quite surprising.

I would have expected FA or AP to be up by now. You two must be hiding something behind the scenes. It's a conspiracy!!!

I'm glad I have a DA account again. Good luck.


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## falderal (Dec 7, 2005)

AuroranDragon said:
			
		

> Is it Halloween yet? Has two weeks pasted yet? Honestly, with all the bug squashing and attention to code that was said around here and on the beta, this time I'm surprised. The delays weren't surprising, but the up and down in a matter of hours was quite surprising.
> 
> I would have expected FA or AP to be up by now. You two must be hiding something behind the scenes. It's a conspiracy!!!
> 
> I'm glad I have a DA account again. Good luck.



I think all those candy bars have gotten to yer head.  :wink: 

But seriously, FA allows more content and less censorship than DA or many other places will tolerate.
You realize how much money goes into these things, with the Domain payments and paying for a permanent IP address, and upgrading? 
Then the long and extensive code preparations and fixings.
You're lucky they don't all ask for money upfront.
I really wish they all would. It would help out extensively with some websites, including FA. 
Is it really cheaper to go out and buy paper and pencils and draw things than it is to maintain a server online?

So, count your blessings because it's free. 

Well, I shouldn't talk as I recently got myself webspace at fortunecity  

Course if you pay for your DA account then I just did one of these as well :-X


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## Myr (Dec 7, 2005)

falderal said:
			
		

> I think all those candy bars have gotten to yer head.  :wink:
> 
> But seriously, FA allows more content and less censorship than DA or many other places will tolerate.
> You realize how much money goes into these things, with the Domain payments and paying for a permanent IP address, and upgrading?
> ...


Candy bars are delicious.  mmmm *rubs belly*

And I am well aware of the differences between DA and FA. I am also well aware of the complexity of making all of the coding things work and the amount of time it takes to accomplish such a task and the respective costs of it. But when I make a video game and it has bugs, put it to beta and address the issues, and then finish it off for a full release generally it gets better with each step since things that are not broken are not adjusted. It's a very very very slim chance that something crippling happens and is not addressed by the program or already checked out once it hits that final stage (in fact, it's never happened so far). If EA releases a video game in beta for retail purchase (BF2) and then breaks it with a patch I'm going to be mad at them so obviously the same would hold true against the FA beta and FA release. Fortunately, the game kinda still works rather than deleting itself out.

As for the cost, I used to harp on how things need to be looked at from a business point of view, but that was ignored enough times I have stopped wanting to go down the route of explaining what I mean.

So, basically, you haven't been around to see all the posts I made in the past. While I do appreciate the service and gave my good luck wishes, I do un-attach myself from things after they fail to work for extended periods of time for no obivious reason despite tons of appearant work put into something.


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## AquaPhin (Dec 7, 2005)

man this sucks! me and cyrin were excited, it went down before cyrin could get on.....damn................so is there anything i can do to help you guys?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 7, 2005)

AuroranDragon said:
			
		

> And I am well aware of the differences between DA and FA. I am also well aware of the complexity of making all of the coding things work and the amount of time it takes to accomplish such a task and the respective costs of it. But when I make a video game and it has bugs, put it to beta and address the issues, and then finish it off for a full release generally it gets better with each step since things that are not broken are not adjusted. It's a very very very slim chance that something crippling happens and is not addressed by the program or already checked out once it hits that final stage (in fact, it's never happened so far). If EA releases a video game in beta for retail purchase (BF2) and then breaks it with a patch I'm going to be mad at them so obviously the same would hold true against the FA beta and FA release. Fortunately, the game kinda still works rather than deleting itself out.


The issue with the beta release and the live release was that the beta release was done on a different server on a different OS. We upgraded for the new server, and everything was running fine, then for no reason we could figure out the mySQL application decided that it wanted a few more days to itself. So we're reloading the entire server from the ground up to best match the beta system. We went to a newer system for better security in the live.



			
				AuroranDragon said:
			
		

> As for the cost, I used to harp on how things need to be looked at from a business point of view, but that was ignored enough times I have stopped wanting to go down the route of explaining what I mean.
> 
> So, basically, you haven't been around to see all the posts I made in the past. While I do appreciate the service and gave my good luck wishes, I do un-attach myself from things after they fail to work for extended periods of time for no obivious reason despite tons of appearant work put into something.


Well, bare with us. We're making a lot more progress behind the scenes than we're showing, and we've got longterm plans.

As for money, well, we'll announce how we're going to work out funding in the near future. Rest assured, FA does NOT want to go the route of sites like Sheezy and Deviant. Banner ads are annoying and frustrating, and restricting usability just plain sucks. So we're trying to work out a middleground.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 7, 2005)

AquaPhin said:
			
		

> man this sucks! me and cyrin were excited, it went down before cyrin could get on.....damn................so is there anything i can do to help you guys?


Patience.


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## AquaPhin (Dec 7, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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off topic: i like your new user image, i laughed a few times, i actually stuck my toungue on a metal part in the freezer door, hurt bad


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## Tiarhlu (Dec 7, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> As for money, well, we'll announce how we're going to work out funding in the near future. Rest assured, FA does NOT want to go the route of sites like Sheezy and Deviant. Banner ads are annoying and frustrating, and restricting usability just plain sucks. So we're trying to work out a middleground.



Thank you kind sir. *gives super friend hug*


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## ryokukitsune (Dec 7, 2005)

all i have to say is that you guys rock and you are all the coolest people in the world rite now for giving we furries a place to be on the net thats divoted to what we like. I can wait, as long as it takes, I dont plan on complaining and all I can hope for is that FA is up soon ^^

it would be a nice cristmas present if it all works out hehe.


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## Seppel (Dec 8, 2005)

falderal said:
			
		

> But seriously, FA allows more content and less censorship than DA or many other places will tolerate.
> You realize how much money goes into these things, with the Domain payments and paying for a permanent IP address, and upgrading?
> Then the long and extensive code preparations and fixings.
> You're lucky they don't all ask for money upfront.
> So, count your blessings because it's free.



Maintaining a website like this isn't TOO difficult.  The costs aren't exorbitant, and doing something for free can help gather viewers, instead of chasing them away immediately.  That's why sponsorships are good.

Coding is easy as well.  It just takes devotion.  When people started to complain that Yerf was down and also that Furaffinity was taking forever to finish, I sat down for two weeks and coded Artaholics.

I sat and thought about the ups and downs of each popular art archive:
Yerf: Doesn't allow adult art, no commenting ability, very good community, no search function, furry only.
VCL: No commenting ability, good clean archive structure, furry only.
dA: Commenting ability, too much clutter, quality is mostly poor.
sA: Commenting ability, too much clutter, the ability to change the color layout.
Side7: Very good search function, very poor archive structure.

So, of course, adult art is allowed on Artaholics.  While it's mostly furry, any art is welcome.  You can comment on art and artists can disable comments if he/she doesn't want any.  The search function is powerful, the archive structure is clean and simple.  The site itself is also friendly towards people still using dialup.  Useless clutter, like pointless shoutboxes and other items that detract from the main goal of showcasing, commenting, and critiquing art don't exist.  You can also change the color layout, and watch for artists when they update, and much more!

If you want a place to upload, feel free to join Artaholics and help it grow too!


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## Suule (Dec 8, 2005)

> If you want a place to upload, feel free to join Artaholics and help it grow too!



Oh... that's certainly a place I'd be intrested in. The layout is a bit hard to adjust but I think I'll join


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## Dragoneer (Dec 8, 2005)

Seppel said:
			
		

> Maintaining a website like this isn't TOO difficult.  The costs aren't exorbitant, and doing something for free can help gather viewers, instead of chasing them away immediately.  That's why sponsorships are good.


That's true, it's not too difficult, but there is a lot to it. The costs are roughly $400 a month, and the price can only go up from there. When you add in server costs (that the community graciously provided us), bandwidth, backups and running/maintaining an archive that extends to thousands of users, it can start to get overwhelming.

It's not that it's entirely hard, but it is time consuming.

But there's a lot more to running a community than simply the coding.


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## Keto (Dec 8, 2005)

Seppel said:
			
		

> I sat and thought about the ups and downs of each popular art archive:
> Yerf: Doesn't allow adult art, no commenting ability, very good community, no search function, furry only.
> VCL: No commenting ability, good clean archive structure, furry only.
> dA: Commenting ability, too much clutter, quality is mostly poor.
> ...



Hmm...This isn't an argument toward anybody, but a simple thought of mine that was I was reminded of when reading this....

I'm NOT against yiff art, I can definately see it as just another form of self-expression and art and shouldn't be censored and all that freedom artsy stuff....but on the same time, I think archives like YERF is also VERY  awesome to have...so I wouldn't really count the "doesn't allow adult art" as a bad thing, esspecially when there are enough places out their that DO allow adult art...

I think it's great to have archives like YERF and Hell, I think we need MORE places like that too. Now.... FA is awesome, and not sure if the other sites have this feature, but the feature of allowing you to block adult art is a great idea....and I'm losing my train of thought. lol. Anyways, I guess I'm just thinking of new commers to the fandom, whom I think most would get scared off easily if the first pieces of art they see is spooge-exploding yiff. 

I'm not trying to sound anti-yiff or anything, cause I definately don't mind it, and collect it, and draw a little myself, but I guess I'm just saying it's STILL good to have places like YERF.


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## theFinalFlight (Dec 8, 2005)

Actually Keto, I think you've made an excellent point. Places like yerf are good for new comers as well as furries who try to avoid the yiff art scene. I, personally, was never a big fan of yiff art (just a personal preference), but I respect it's being able to be drawn because it's a matter of artistic freedom. But, on that note, that makes FA all the more important for resident furries who are comfortable with or work with yiff art.

 Also, on FA's behalf, the real reason I kept around it is it's down-to-Earth approach. I gave up on VCL because of it's strict rules on getting in and maintaining a gallery. FA gives you a lot of freedom, so you can post WIP art, sketches, as well as finished works, which I think is what a true art gallery should have- the entire process. Plus, unlike DA, it limits itself to furry art and gives you a common ground with the other artists on the archive, which is nice to have from time to time (lord knows the attacks one gets sometimes for drawing furry art, thanks to the insulting stereotypes that come with it). There's an actual community feel on FA that many art galleries I have been on lack.


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## Tiarhlu (Dec 8, 2005)

Yeah I just feel wierd on DA. It's like everyone's stuck up and they're just stepping all over me, not noticing I'm even there. I don't mean any specific artists, but just the overall feel. Maybe another analogy is that I'm at this huge, multi-thematic art gallery, and I'm in the bathroom, on the can, drawing, and posting my pics on the stall door. 

All of those ads are a realy eye sore too. 

Props to FA for being a great site. I just hope it's back for real soon.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 8, 2005)

theFinalFlight said:
			
		

> There's an actual community feel on FA that many art galleries I have been on lack.


And we're going to further that through contests and community projects in the near future.  Community is why FA is here. The art is nice, but it's about bringing artists together and giving them a place to communicate.


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## Vlcice (Dec 8, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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I just hope that non-visual artists (writers, musicians, and so on) are included in that, too. ^.~ Writers like myself, at least, have tended to be second-class citizens when it comes to art communities/web galleries like these - not pointing a finger at FA specifically, mind, because it's often the case elsewhere too. (Though FA still doesn't offer a "writer" option for type of artist...)


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## RailRide (Dec 8, 2005)

theFinalFlight said:
			
		

> Also, on FA's behalf, the real reason I kept around it is it's down-to-Earth approach. I gave up on VCL because of it's strict rules on getting in and maintaining a gallery. FA gives you a lot of freedom, so you can post WIP art, sketches, as well as finished works, which I think is what a true art gallery should have- the entire process.



Lest anyone not already familiar with the VCL think it's another uber-elitist YERF-wannabe or anything, VCL's 'rules' pretty much boil down to 'draw a three dimensional-looking figure' and 'know how to clean the smudges and noise off your picture after you scan it'. 

Assuming you meet the first criteria, the assesors will give you as many chances as you need to get the second down correctly. This is in contrast to YERF, where if you failed the first round, you get to wait a variable number of _months_ before you're allowed to try again, based on how far you fell short of a passing grade.

The second criteria that gives so many folks problems came about as the result of so many people growing accustomed to (ab)using the gallery as a mass dumping ground for throwaway, _"meh, i didnt put any effort into this because my heart wasnt in it but im posting it anyway"_ stuff, the good artists who _ did _ care what their works looked like were starting to abandon the gallery. When content filtering upgrades are finally added to VCL, the above requirements are slated to be relaxed, presumably because said artists would then have to exert some effort to make visible those works they _did_ want casual visitors to see.

---PCJ (who got in on his first try there)


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## Myr (Dec 8, 2005)

Preyfar, when I read back over my words I sound more critical than I wish to be. Sorry about that. I know very little about web-based programming (right now...just basic syntax), but I just found this all rather surprising. Granted, if I write something in C++ normally I only have to worry about different compilers throwing a fit about stuff (the OS was an issue once, but that was by API calls).



			
				Tiarhlu said:
			
		

> Yeah I just feel wierd on DA. It's like everyone's stuck up and they're just stepping all over me, not noticing I'm even there. I don't mean any specific artists, but just the overall feel. Maybe another analogy is that I'm at this huge, multi-thematic art gallery, and I'm in the bathroom, on the can, drawing, and posting my pics on the stall door.
> 
> All of those ads are a realy eye sore too.
> 
> Props to FA for being a great site. I just hope it's back for real soon.


I completely agree with you. This is the major reason why I dislike DA. Although I am happy to have an account, the clutter, ugliness, weirdness of their mainstream members, and rudeness of their "community" (not to mention its determination to rewrite what the word "art" means) drove me to leave once. I don't like using it now, but it works so...yeah.



			
				theFinalFlight said:
			
		

> There's an actual community feel on FA that many art galleries I have been on lack.


Yep, unlike certain other sites where I have to search through a page just to find a button that I need to click or be wary of some idiot posting a random spam or "wtf" comment on a submission.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 8, 2005)

AuroranDragon said:
			
		

> Preyfar, when I read back over my words I sound more critical than I wish to be. Sorry about that.


Don't be sorry. When it comes to art and sites like this, it's easy to be critical and frustrated. Trust me, I know exactly how you and a lot of other people feel. That's why I ended up on FA staff.  Because I wanted the improvements made all around.


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## theFinalFlight (Dec 8, 2005)

RailRide said:
			
		

> The second criteria that gives so many folks problems came about as the result of so many people growing accustomed to (ab)using the gallery as a mass dumping ground for throwaway, _"meh, i didnt put any effort into this because my heart wasnt in it but im posting it anyway"_ stuff, the good artists who _ did _ care what their works looked like were starting to abandon the gallery. When content filtering upgrades are finally added to VCL, the above requirements are slated to be relaxed, presumably because said artists would then have to exert some effort to make visible those works they _did_ want casual visitors to see.
> 
> ---PCJ (who got in on his first try there)



 And I can understand that problem. People will always abuse galleries with scrap just to fill their galleries in an attempt to gain more page views by having more art posted. Too often online galleries are one big popularity contest rather than a means to get feedback and connect with other artists.

I also was accepted to their gallery on first try, mind you, so please don't assume that I'm someone who tried to submit smudged up scrap art because that is not the case in the least.

 I got attacked for file sizes (which I can understand if they were massive, but they were all 150 KB or less), and was forced to downgrade them to a quality that left certain areas completely in pixels. That was my biggest beef with them. I also was attacked for inked-only art that fully completed, not scrap art, and which I spent plenty of time on. Because I preferred it to be black and white one of the admins was very unhappy and made a point to make slurs about that piece of art, which I didn't understand after having several friends that uploaded black and white art.

 I never once claimed they were elitist and never once tried to persuade anyone otherwise. I simlpy said I was unhappy with them and that I enjoyed the freedom of FA. You are perfectly welcome to be happy with VCL. I, personally, just was not.

 As for one of the other comments below, I hope that FA shows more support for writers. It's true FA is more visually arts-based, but writing is an art form and should be given a little more appreciation ;3


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## Dragoneer (Dec 8, 2005)

theFinalFlight said:
			
		

> As for one of the other comments below, I hope that FA shows more support for writers. It's true FA is more visually arts-based, but writing is an art form and should be given a little more appreciation ;3


Writers will be fully supported, don't worry!


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## comidacomida (Dec 8, 2005)

Being a writer first and foremost, I can agree with Vlcice about art being a main focus for FA.  On the other hand, that's essentially what I expected from a gallery as most people that make up the online population seem to be more visual than they are lingual (couldn't say verbal, because we aren't exactly "talking" now are we?)

I have no objections to people looking around FA for art because that's why they're probably there; if they don't want to read I hold nothing against them for it.  That said, it WOULD be nice to have a "writer" option under a heading of "What type of creativity do you display" so those of us who are writers first and foremost can make that known and for those of us who dabble in graphics and writing can choose which we would like to present as our preferred method.


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## WHPellic (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm kinda mixed on Yerf. It was a good site until it became very strict on quality. I prefer to watch artists grow and evolve their styles. But on Yerf, the art seems like it has to be top-notch perfect. 

I guess I liked the toonier side of Yerf with all the jokes between the artists and being able to see the community within the art. But nowadays, it seems all realistic art. Don't get me wrong, realistic art is great, but I like variety. Yerf just seems rather cold to me. It's a great site for good artwork, but definitely not a site for an artist to grow.

Say what you want about VCL, but there, you can click on an artist's archive and see how far they've come since they first started.


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## Turbine_Divinity (Dec 9, 2005)

The trick with calling something "Scrap", is everyone's definition is different. I come from a somewhat more fine art background, I'm cultivating what is for this fandom a very loose sensibility to linework, I do very immediate work. Besides my paintings, I do quick line drawings, but out of, say 200 line drawings, I'll upload the best 10 or 15. They individually might not have taken that long to do, but I probably did five or ten similar drawings to get the one that's worth uploading. And I'd be very disappointed if someone called them "scrap" or not worth uploading, because the whole thrust of why I do things the way I do is the loose immediacy, and trying to resolve it with "traditional" ink linework would ruin the very thing I'm shooting for.


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## Katrkoriza (Dec 9, 2005)

*The Art Sites?*

I never went to VCl myself, as for the restrictions on the size, now mind you, I could fit most of my stuff down in size, but you wouldn't be able to see any of the many small things I put in them. Although, everyone may not see them, it?s still important to me to keep them where they could be seen. I'd loved to have joined it, but my resolutions are very strange, or very large. I didn't see the point of bothering the admins or anyone else with having to fiddle and get everyone of them accepted for the sizes they were already in, since mine are rather big and the backgrounds warrant the need to keep them that way. I always saw VCL more of as Character artwork...

I never did put my stuff up anywhere till FA came around and someone convinced me to finally submit work to it. I ended up going to its IRC first and ran into Furry, and ECT and I decided after that to stay and try it out. I ended up getting a warm welcome and that was a very good first experience. I don't know about the other art sites really, I haven't had time to look into them. Although Dial up is a good reason not to try to be at more then maybe a couple art sites. So far, I've entrenched my self at DA, and now I've found myself at   Y! Hosting Gallery (yoai.y-gallery.net) and I've gotten an even more welcome then previously. Y gallery has just been..Fucking awesome... I don't have one complaint about it yet. DA I don't have any real complaints about either, when I went there I pretty much gathered up a good group of people around me somehow, most of them female artists, and they all do really rocking artwork, and they have all been awesome people so far.

I'm just kind of looking forward to FA being back.


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## Keto (Dec 9, 2005)

WHPellic said:
			
		

> I'm kinda mixed on Yerf. It was a good site until it became very strict on quality. I prefer to watch artists grow and evolve their styles. But on Yerf, the art seems like it has to be top-notch perfect.
> 
> I guess I liked the toonier side of Yerf with all the jokes between the artists and being able to see the community within the art. But nowadays, it seems all realistic art. Don't get me wrong, realistic art is great, but I like variety. Yerf just seems rather cold to me. It's a great site for good artwork, but definitely not a site for an artist to grow.
> 
> Say what you want about VCL, but there, you can click on an artist's archive and see how far they've come since they first started.



Oh, there's romo for ANY artist to improve really... and I'm not on Yerf, but from what I've seen I don't think you gotta be a master artEEST or anything. I understand what you mean about seeing some growth though, and yeah I know it's a little harder to do that on YERF, but not THAT much harder. You can still see growth, but just maybe not the REALLLYYY early stuff.


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## Verona (Dec 9, 2005)

Kyubi-sama said:
			
		

> i gues everyone does ^^



He he! That's for sure! :3


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## dave hyena (Dec 9, 2005)

Keto said:
			
		

> Oh, there's romo for ANY artist to improve really... and I'm not on Yerf, but from what I've seen I don't think you gotta be a master artEEST or anything. I understand what you mean about seeing some growth though, and yeah I know it's a little harder to do that on YERF, but not THAT much harder. You can still see growth, but just maybe not the REALLLYYY early stuff.



"All that I have produced before the age of 70 is not worth taking into account. At 73, I learned a little about the real structure of nature, of animals, plants, trees, birds, fishes and insects. In consequence, when I am 80, I shall have made still more progress. At 90, I shall penetrate the mystery of things; at 100, I shall certainly have reached a marvelous stage; and when I am 110, every thing I do, be it a dot or a line, will be alive."

-Hokusai


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## RailRide (Dec 10, 2005)

theFinalFlight said:
			
		

> I also was accepted to their gallery on first try, mind you, so please don't assume that I'm someone who tried to submit smudged up scrap art because that is not the case in the least.



Not casting judgement on what you submitted (or anything else you said) , since I never saw the thread (and I'm not an assessor anyway). I can only report on what I observe, and almost all of the new applicant threads I peek at that show more than 4 or so responses (i.e. most of them) invariably have presentation issues that prove the applicant had not read the instructions, or at least dismissed them out of hand.  



> I got attacked for file sizes (which I can understand if they were massive, but they were all 150 KB or less), and was forced to downgrade them to a quality that left certain areas completely in pixels. That was my biggest beef with them. I also was attacked for inked-only art that fully completed, not scrap art, and which I spent plenty of time on. Because I preferred it to be black and white one of the admins was very unhappy and made a point to make slurs about that piece of art, which I didn't understand after having several friends that uploaded black and white art.



About the only suggestion one can make about finished B/W linework is to save it as a GIF if the submitter did it as a JPG. If what you described is accurate, then the individul assessor is in the wrong  (two of the pieces I applied with were B/W brush-inked lineart, IIRC). It's not the site's policy to treat applicants like that, and I would have brought it to Chmarr's attention.

As for compression, again I can't comment on what you applied with since I never saw them, but what I've observed (at least fairly recently) is the assessor should have provided an example of how much more the image could be compressed. If the example is unacceptably compromised, you can dispute his/her judgement call. After all, there is a formalized exemption for works where detail warrants a large filesize, but generally in the application process they want to see that you _know_ how to compress images, not that you should butcher every piece you put up after you're approved . (Personally, with FA I made a point of bypassing artists who _consistently_ post extra-large images, and plan to keep doing so just on principle, even though I now have DSL.)

As for the freedom aspect, time will tell. It's been my observation that places that have been around a long time tend to become less freewheeling as the years go by, if only because situations crop up over time that become problematic and had to be addressed. And no, I don't consider VCL to be the end-all be-all of online galleries--I happen to have a FA account (for its comment features) and plan to reactivate it when the site returns.

---PCJ


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## Dragoneer (Dec 10, 2005)

RailRide said:
			
		

> Personally, with FA I made a point of bypassing artists who _consistently_ post extra-large images, and plan to keep doing so just on principle, even though I now have DSL.)


FA still needs to discuss rules for large file sizes. Personally, I think no image should EVER be larger than 1280 pixels in any direction, but it's debatable. It is something we need to discuss.


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## Turbine_Divinity (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, 1280 is completely insane for the web. Professional illustrators' online portfolios are not nearly that large, nobody on FA should be putting up anything that crazy either. It's outside of the scope of the gallery, if you really want to make a gigantic print-quality image available, host it somewhere else and provide a link, ya know? Even unwieldly panorama images can be broken down into parts of a triptych or whatnot.


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## furry (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm more concerned about file weight than dimentions.

A comic strip might have an unusually large height or something.
But no picture should reach the megabyte under any circumstances.

Users should be able to define weight or size over which FA would display a warning for size. 

And people submitting their stupid pencil sketches on lined paper in 2400x3600 24bit PNG should be banned, too!


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## Vlcice (Dec 10, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> RailRide said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Desktop wallpapers, at least for people with very high resolutions, could be over 1280. (Not that I can understand how people can deal with those resolutions, myself. ^.^; Mine is 1280x854, and that's really enough for me. Any more than that and I'll need my glasses to see a screen two feet in front of me.)

For other art, though, 1280 does seem a more than reasonable limit.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 10, 2005)

furry said:
			
		

> I'm more concerned about file weight than dimentions.
> 
> A comic strip might have an unusually large height or something.
> But no picture should reach the megabyte under any circumstances.
> ...


Well, in Ask Fender we'll have a section about understanding and using compression, what to use, etc. An FA admin can reupload the file for the user if he has a better compressed version, really, that doesn't degrade quality. 

The greater problem with having a general rule of compression is it doesn't take file sizes into account. So, a 1280x1280 image at 300K... isn't really bad, while a 700x450 image at 300K is badly, badly compressed.


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