# A commissioners TOS(Rules of engagment)



## Ryu Deacon (Mar 12, 2014)

So im obviously a douche-bag for wanting to protect my self from abuse by artists by setting terms of engagement(service) for them the same way they do with commissioners, at the very least thats what the poster of the Journal this is related to is calling me.

With the recent artists ive commissioned i have set terms to the commission deal with them and they have all accepted, nothing was forced they where free to deny and walk away if they liked. Two weeks latter i notice a Journal that is obviously about me, the poster crying foul about commissioners setting rules/terms to artists and making up stories about me being all pushy, setting deadlines and threatening Artists and trying to silence them, all of which are untrue and calling commissioners setting rules stupid. He obviously is one of many artist here in this Fandom who or stuck with this idiotic mentality that commissioners are just cash cows that are to do their biding, bow before the artist- and not criticize, say a word or protect ones self. The person how notified this poster was one of my commissioned Artists who complained about me being rude to her after i responded with required edits to her note that was asking if the sketch(a sketch that looked alot like lineart) was fine or required changes, this after my note not having been read(Highlighted) for over a week while showing clear activity thru out the whole week, posted a shout on her page later(before she finally read the reply) as it may have seemed she did not get the reply to her note.
commission was later agreed to being refunded as i sensed future problems arising from her after asking for any changes needed and then turning around having a problem with exactly what she was asking for. Do i have no right to protect my self or take precautions against abuse by the hands of the artist.

What id like to know is if you side with him or not, and if the former then why, and why you don't you consider your own TOS unneeded if you do a commissioners?

Another thing im honestly considering is denying Artists full payment up front in the future and also designating this requirement as illegal. Honestly don't get why Artists have felt the need  to ship all risk of a commission on the commissioner alone instead of seeking a safe middle ground that doesn't belittle/discriminate against the rights and control of ether side.
no working person irl is payed salary or and any other kind of income not sponsored by the government before doing work. And  before you say, yes artist are also working persons if they are living from regular payments thru their art or/and doing commissions regularly and have expectations of being commission multiple times every month.

No im not praising the idiotic mentality that the "customer is king", but you are likly living or being supported by the money people pay you, so treat them with the same respect you would for your self, dont kick them or bite them...


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## Terror-Run (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm both an artist and a commissioner so might as well drop my 2 cents.

The ToS is not just there for the artist. The Terms of Service for each artist is just getting all the info out there in what you will get yourself into, this should also outline things such as deadlines, payment plans, refunds and all that juicy stuff. The Commissioner will then (hopefully) read this and he can note questions/concerns and ask about things ahead of time. So in my opinion, having a ToE is kinda of silly - since you would have to change it for every artist. If I'm honest I would be really aware if someone came at me with a pre-written list of terms, that can be just me though. 

As for the paying up front.  Have you any idea how many artists get scammed? There are so many things that could happen in the time from the inital request to the finished image WiP. I think these two are the most common though; 

The "commissioner" receive work for approval but doesn't pay. // there is no way you can "force" money out of someone on the internet, not in a legal way anyways. This is why watermarks exist
The commissioner had an emergency and no longer have the funds. // Great, sure there are important issues out there, and art is a luxury expense and will usually be last on the list - but this means the artist will need to wait for money that was supposed to me spent on food/rent/their important irl stuff.

This is why most people Use Paypal - then you as a customer will pay ahead of time, and if you do not receive anything/any contact then there is a 40 something day limit where you can dispute it and get your money back. Some commissioners will allow payment plans (mostly over $100), or want to be paid for each step ahead of time - this might be good for the slower artist out there that would otherwise take over the dispute time. 
I love both working for, and getting work done by others - generally reading people's ToS, avoiding people with a shady ToS/one you don't agree with, and voicing your concerns at an early stage will sort out most bumps in the road.


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## Ryu Deacon (Mar 12, 2014)

> I'm both an artist and a commissioner so might as well drop my 2 cents.
> 
> The ToS is not just there for the artist. The Terms of Service for each artist is just getting all the info out there in what you will get yourself into, this should also outline things such as deadlines, payment plans, refunds and all that juicy stuff. The Commissioner will then (hopefully) read this and he can note questions/concerns and ask about things ahead of time. So in my opinion, having a ToE is kinda of silly - since you would have to change it for every artist. If I'm honest I would be really aware if someone came at me with a pre-written list of terms, that can be just me though.


for everyone yes but can be abused by the artist, they have all control, which is the problem, many artists have a TOS that are made in a way that allow for the abuse of the commissioner. Also i made a TOE so i don't have to change it from artist to artist since most of the rules that i have set deal with communication, posting of Commissions and communication on social networks, something that is most often not dealt with in a Artists TOS

This action has been done because artists numerous times have shown no respect or have abused the commissioner thru their TOS


> As for the paying up front. Have you any idea how many artists get scammed? There are so many things that could happen in the time from the inital request to the finished image WiP. I think these two are the most common though;
> 
> The "commissioner" receive work for approval but doesn't pay. // there is no way you can "force" money out of someone on the internet, not in a legal way anyways. This is why watermarks exist
> The commissioner had an emergency and no longer have the funds. // Great, sure there are important issues out there, and art is a luxury expense and will usually be last on the list - but this means the artist will need to wait for money that was supposed to me spent on food/rent/their important irl stuff.
> ...


Yes im very clear on that thru commissioners suffer the same but unlike the sufferings of  artists those of the commissioner are always kep hidden by the community, one should understand why the commissioner may have a problem with paying in full before seeing any process done, but still artist go for a absolute against the commissioner instead of a middle ground. Note the "full" before "payment up front", im fine with paying halfway thru or only half before and half after, i only have a problem paying in full before anything is worked on because like every job it must be earned, you speak of earning money for food and stuff but you haven't earned it when you haven't done anything yet. a job doesnt pay its new worker his or her salary the minute he applys  and is accepted to the Job just because he needs the salary for food right away. Artists in this fandom expect to be treated professionally but dont wanna be treated like their doing a Job Which regularly scheduled commissions are, those two things are not compatible.

You also pointed the middle ground there, watermarks and lower resolutions among other things and still you dont use it instead you lieve all risk to the commissioner alone to deal with while the Artist can run off with the money if he/she want to without doing anything at all or doing a half ass'd job(ripping/stealing) and the commissioner cant do a thing about it. because the TOS only take priority for the Artist not the commissioners.

As for the 40 day limit at paypal, rather useless as most artists take longer then that(just waiting lists, queries for example...) nor do i expect any Artist to rush, some people seem to have the urge to misunderstand me on that part so they can accuse me of committing the vile sin against artistdom.
And again most TOS ive seen take Artists with priority over the commissioner instead of treating both parts of the deal equally and respectfully and many have shown a mentality that lacks respect.


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## Terror-Run (Mar 12, 2014)

I would avoid artists with a bad ToS, if you disagree with them - just don't comission them, it's their loss. But unfortunately there are too many that don't bother reading an artists ToS, and so they gut stuck in the "no refund if I decide not to do the work anyways" clause that some put on ( a ToS is not legally binding though, and so you can still try to get money back trough paypal).

I don't think customers getting scammed is as downplayed as you might think, just look at Artists_Beware. and some repeated scammers have been banned off FA too. 
The money should not be spent before the commission is done. It's needed to be kept on hold in case of cancelled work or partial refunds.  This is why PP is so good. It's kinda like a third party for keeping the middle ground.
And for the people taking more than 40 days, either pay a fee/deposit for holding you place in the queue and in full when it's your turn, or get one that is willing to give you progress shots during the time to make you feel safe. If they seem scammy you can just pull the funds. 40 days is a pretty long time for no response - so it still works. I would be more concerned if a artist had a ToS that didn't fit your ToE, and they decided to bend it for you. That is a giant huge red flag that they are also willing to bend their own ToS for their own sake. (changing it for new customers is different ofc). I'm not sure if we will ever agree  But I know as an artist I will never start on something other than a pose sketch without pay.  (I might do a pose sketch if it's a complex thing, just to make sure I can actually do the work they ask for), and as a commissioner I will do my job by reading the artist's ToS, look at how they have behaved to previous customers trough submission comments and replies and check that they aren't on A_B.


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## Zenia (Mar 12, 2014)

Ryu Deacon said:


> Another thing im honestly considering is denying Artists full payment up front in the future and also designating this requirement as illegal.


Please never contact me for a commission then. 


> no working person irl is payed salary or and any other kind of income not sponsored by the government before doing work.


I own my own tailor shop. It has been the policy for over 10 years (so I kept it) that we are paid when you drop off items for cleaning/alterations. And  you know what? People pay it.

Anyway, I've only seen one guy with his own TOS (he is purely a buyer and "art trade" guy) and the terms he thinks people will abide by are insane. Also, I am pretty sure he doesn't tell people about his TOS and only springs it on them later. He is someone I will never work with.


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## Wolfool (Mar 13, 2014)

It's a tough one for sure, and there's always gonna be risks either way, a little bit of trust is needed.... I've never commissioned artwork before but still feel the need to make it fair on both sides. I think so long as you lay out your TOS at the start people don't really have a leg to stand on if they start complaining because, well, you can just show them that you're only following the guidelines you set out at the beginning which they _agreed_ to by not calling off the commission. I always lay out my work process and terms at the start of a commission and encourage the buyer to do the same, although I've noticed they rarely do, they just agree to what I've said but as I've tried to make my TOS beneficial for both parties I guess they don't really need to add anything. I really don't understand people that demand payment up front though... Even if you've got a great reputation, as far as the buyer's concerned you could just take their money and never get around to the artwork with the whole "waiting list" thing or "sorry mate RL issues" or "I finished it but didn't like and have restarted" all of which are reasons I've seen others complaining about. Either a partial payment upfront with the rest being given at the end, or payment part of the way through the commission seems fair to me!


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## Charrio (Mar 13, 2014)

Wolfool said:


> It's a tough one for sure, and there's always gonna be risks either way, a little bit of trust is needed.... I've never commissioned artwork before but still feel the need to make it fair on both sides. I think so long as you lay out your TOS at the start people don't really have a leg to stand on if they start complaining because, well, you can just show them that you're only following the guidelines you set out at the beginning which they _agreed_ to by not calling off the commission. I always lay out my work process and terms at the start of a commission and encourage the buyer to do the same, although I've noticed they rarely do, they just agree to what I've said but as I've tried to make my TOS beneficial for both parties I guess they don't really need to add anything. I really don't understand people that demand payment up front though... Even if you've got a great reputation, as far as the buyer's concerned you could just take their money and never get around to the artwork with the whole "waiting list" thing or "sorry mate RL issues" or "I finished it but didn't like and have restarted" all of which are reasons I've seen others complaining about. Either a partial payment upfront with the rest being given at the end, or payment part of the way through the commission seems fair to me!



I see that a lot from artists who take on more than they can do easily.
I really don't see the point of overloading yourself, I can only do maybe 4 or 5 before I stop taking commissions since I'm already busy with the ones I have. 

As to a Buyer's terms of service to the artist, that really depends in my thinking. 
If were talking a large expensive project needed for a deadline than it's reasonable to have such a thing. 

Now if it's like a 30.00 drawing I wouldn't bother, or accept one if it had terms i deemed I can do to the clients needs. 
As to taking payment first, It's how a lot do things myself included. 
If I can't do the work for the buyer quickly or get snagged and kept from drawing, I would freely return payment and still do the work since it was my fault. 

Most of the buyers listen to word of mouth, and if your screwing people it gets around.


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## Wolfool (Mar 13, 2014)

Charrio said:


> I see that a lot from artists who take on more than they can do easily.
> I really don't see the point of overloading yourself, I can only do maybe 4 or 5 before I stop taking commissions since I'm already busy with the ones I have.
> 
> As to a Buyer's terms of service to the artist, that really depends in my thinking.
> ...



Mmmm I get your point, but even for cheap commissions, if a customer stated that if changes were needed they'd expect them done without extra cost then I'd accept that as a fairly reasonable TOS.... for instance if markings weren't quite right or colours were inaccurate or something like that then I see it as fair enough that I should change it otherwise it's not really their character... But then again, that kind of thing is included in my own TOS anyway so I guess it's kind of irrelevant! It really depends on the artist and the commissioner, if it's a new artist with no evidence of previous work or work ethic/TOS I think it's only right the buyer should be able (and encouraged) to define some rules to protect themselves, at the end of the day, it's their money! 

Can I ask why you ask for payment first? Is it simply a security thing? I've been pretty lucky so far and only encountered people who've been really on time with payments etc but I'm starting to get a little wary of being ripped off, particularly because I don't ask for payment till after I've provided lineart of the piece I'm doing...


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## Terror-Run (Mar 13, 2014)

Zenia said:


> I own my own tailor shop. It has been the policy for over 10 years (so I kept it) that we are paid when you drop off items for cleaning/alterations. And  you know what? People pay it.


 
This too. I honestly didn't want to answer the "_no working person irl is payed salary or and any other kind of income not sponsored by the government before doing work."
_because it's just.. bleh. Anyways, I work part in a time dry-cleaning shop, you can either pay when dropping things off, or pay when picking them up. Guess which customers "forget" to pick things up? (hint; Not the ones that's already paid for.)
Do I get paid for me irl job ahead of time? nope, but with them I have a written contract. that they will pay me "x" amount per hour, on "x" date each month - you do not have this contract as an artist, and trying to get it out of the commissioner who might not even be in the same country will be incredible difficult/expensive/impossible. 



Wolfool said:


> Mmmm I get your point, but even for cheap commissions, if a customer stated that if changes were needed they'd expect them done without extra cost then I'd accept that as a fairly reasonable TOS.... for instance if markings weren't quite right or colours were inaccurate or something like that then I see it as fair enough that I should change it otherwise it's not really their character.



this one is in my ToS too, but only 2 changes after the sketch have been approved. This is probably the rule I'm the most lax with, especially when it comes to written info that have no visual form yet. But it's still important to have in case you get one of those customers you just can't satisfy. I.e "the arm is 2 pixels too far out", and then start nitpicking on a ton of other tiny details or that they decide to change the markings of something after it's been done. I've seen these people, and usually asking them to pay for continued changes makes them make their mind up pretty fast.


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## Zenia (Mar 13, 2014)

Terror-Run said:


> I work part in a time dry-cleaning shop, you can either pay when dropping things off, or pay when picking them up. Guess which customers "forget" to pick things up? (hint; Not the ones that's already paid for.)


Yeah, before this policy was enacted (before I was hired on) people would do that all the time. Leave things to be done and never pick them up... or ask for 1-hour or next-day service (adding a rush fee) and then come back a week later and be like "Well, I didn't come back an hour (or day) later, so I am not paying that fee!

The owner of the shop at the time still had to pay the employees to do the work so that was money and time lost. I own the place now and keep the same policy... though I will bend it sometimes for regulars, much like I will bend rules for regular commissioners... but everyone should not expect that treatment.


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## Taralack (Mar 13, 2014)

Wolfool said:


> Can I ask why you ask for payment first? Is it simply a security thing? I've been pretty lucky so far and only encountered people who've been really on time with payments etc but I'm starting to get a little wary of being ripped off, particularly because I don't ask for payment till after I've provided lineart of the piece I'm doing...



Although I'm not the one you're asking, I'm an artist who also requires payment upfront before starting work. It is definitely a security thing, yes. I've been stiffed by more people than I care to remember, completing an artwork for them only to have them mysteriously disappear or drag their feet about sending payment. It's also why I send customers invoices now instead of relying on them to send me payment manually. Not only is it more professional, but I also have another method of keeping track of customers.


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## Charrio (Mar 13, 2014)

Wolfool said:


> Mmmm I get your point, but even for cheap commissions, if a customer stated that if changes were needed they'd expect them done without extra cost then I'd accept that as a fairly reasonable TOS.... for instance if markings weren't quite right or colours were inaccurate or something like that then I see it as fair enough that I should change it otherwise it's not really their character... But then again, that kind of thing is included in my own TOS anyway so I guess it's kind of irrelevant! It really depends on the artist and the commissioner, if it's a new artist with no evidence of previous work or work ethic/TOS I think it's only right the buyer should be able (and encouraged) to define some rules to protect themselves, at the end of the day, it's their money!
> 
> Can I ask why you ask for payment first? Is it simply a security thing? I've been pretty lucky so far and only encountered people who've been really on time with payments etc but I'm starting to get a little wary of being ripped off, particularly because I don't ask for payment till after I've provided lineart of the piece I'm doing...



Yeah I freely do alterations If I screw up, I mean I want my buyer to smile and recommend me not just give me money. 
If I'm really lucky I made a new friend too, but yeah I know what ya mean about fixing things. 

As to payment first, just the way I've always done things. 
I also take trades and people can haggle a price down should they pursue it.


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## Wolfool (Mar 14, 2014)

Taralack said:


> Although I'm not the one you're asking, I'm an artist who also requires payment upfront before starting work. It is definitely a security thing, yes. I've been stiffed by more people than I care to remember, completing an artwork for them only to have them mysteriously disappear or drag their feet about sending payment. It's also why I send customers invoices now instead of relying on them to send me payment manually. Not only is it more professional, but I also have another method of keeping track of customers.


Well that's fair enough I guess, I generally ask for payment half way through, at least that way I haven't wasted my time on an entire image before not getting paid.... Although if I ever start getting ripped off I may well have to reconsider this, I think I've just been pretty lucky so far with who's commissioned me! 



Charrio said:


> Yeah I freely do alterations If I screw up, I mean I want my buyer to smile and recommend me not just give me money.
> If I'm really lucky I made a new friend too, but yeah I know what ya mean about fixing things.
> 
> As to payment first, just the way I've always done things.
> I also take trades and people can haggle a price down should they pursue it.


I see, thanks for answering! It's good to see how other artists work, I mean, if I ever start getting landed with commissioners who don't want to pay I may have to adopt similar TOS to you guys... For now I think I'll stick to my current one, I'm forever the optimist and still hope that I never end up working with someone looking to rip me off XD Cheers though!


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## Vex (Mar 14, 2014)

I agree with Zenia entirely.


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