# So FA is 10 years old...ever going to update the site?



## Erethzium (Feb 17, 2015)

Really, at this rate it's looking like Half Life 3 is going to be released before FA finally updates its site design and adds the features users have been requesting for years.


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## Blekarotva (Feb 17, 2015)

The new ui is supposed to be coming Soonâ„¢
Don't hold your breath though :v


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## Erethzium (Feb 18, 2015)

Blekarotva said:


> The new ui is supposed to be coming Soonâ„¢
> Don't hold your breath though :v



We were promised a "UI overhaul" back in like, 2008. Even had screenshots of it.

Still waiting for that, FA staff.

Not concerned about UI so much as functionality, though. There's still no way to filter out submissions based on category, which is a very, VERY basic feature of any image site nowadays. (e621, boorus, etc) And people have been requesting Folders for years, but instead we get crap like "hidden favorites".


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 18, 2015)

Erethzium said:


> We were promised a "UI overhaul" back in like, 2008. Even had screenshots of it.
> 
> Still waiting for that, FA staff.
> 
> Not concerned about UI so much as functionality, though. There's still no way to filter out submissions based on category, which is a very, VERY basic feature of any image site nowadays. (e621, boorus, etc) And people have been requesting Folders for years, but instead we get crap like "hidden favorites".



Categories? Perhaps you meant the image rating? And you can block mature and adult in the settings, as well as the SFW button.


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## Blekarotva (Feb 18, 2015)

Erethzium said:


> We were promised a "UI overhaul" back in like, 2008. Even had screenshots of it.
> 
> Still waiting for that, FA staff.
> 
> Not concerned about UI so much as functionality, though. There's still no way to filter out submissions based on category, which is a very, VERY basic feature of any image site nowadays. (e621, boorus, etc) And people have been requesting Folders for years, but instead we get crap like "hidden favorites".



I know, I've been here since 2007
I agree, I could care less about folders if we had a tag blacklist system.


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## StormyChang (Feb 18, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Categories? Perhaps you meant the image rating? And you can block mature and adult in the settings, as well as the SFW button.



no, i'm pretty sure they mean categories, as they mentioned e621 and boorus.  Categories meaning subjects, yanno like if you want to filter out any image with a keyword.  Like if you didn't want to see anything with puppies or titties in them.  And the fact that we have to go third party for a filtering system with a firefox add-on is bullshit.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 18, 2015)

StormyChang said:


> no, i'm pretty sure they mean categories, as they mentioned e621 and boorus.  Categories meaning subjects, yanno like if you want to filter out any image with a keyword.  Like if you didn't want to see anything with puppies or titties in them.  And the fact that we have to go third party for a filtering system with a firefox add-on is bullshit.



Since when does e621 have anything like that? It's not like we don't have a search function here. And FYI, we can filter out keywords, have you tried? The only thing we need to do is make tags mandatory.


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## RTDragon (Feb 18, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Since when does e621 have anything like that? It's not like we don't have a search function here. And FYI, we can filter out keywords, have you tried? The only thing we need to do is make tags mandatory.



Actually e621 had it since they were online also the fact the tag keywords and filters are encouraged. FA really does'nt have that feature at all excect for keywords but not everyone tags their stuff.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 18, 2015)

Blekarotva said:


> I agree, I could care less about folders if we had a tag blacklist system.



I know a plethora of artists that would appreciate the ability to organize their gallery by personal work, linework, commissions, requests, trades, porn, SFW, etc.


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 18, 2015)

RTDragon said:


> Actually e621 had it since they were online also the fact the tag keywords and filters are encouraged. FA really does'nt have that feature at all excect for keywords but not everyone tags their stuff.



The fact that no one tags their stuff frustrates me beyond words.


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## Blekarotva (Feb 18, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> I know a plethora of artists that would appreciate the ability to organize their gallery by personal work, linework, commissions, requests, trades, porn, SFW, etc.



Never said I didn't want folders, I was expressing my prefered priority.
 The lack of folders never has grossed or creeped the hell out of me (using adult and mature filter).


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## Maugryph (Feb 19, 2015)

Don't hold your breath


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## StormyChang (Feb 19, 2015)

in all honesty.. any real, productive, improvements happening on fa... well.. you'd have a better chance of finding a unicorn.. v.v


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## TheArchiver (Feb 19, 2015)

Blekarotva said:


> Never said I didn't want folders, I was expressing my prefered priority.
> The lack of folders never has grossed or creeped the hell out of me (using adult and mature filter).



I'm always seeing horrible justifications for FA not implementing this feature; some actively against the idea of an improvement. Such as "it would be abused" or "no one would use it". Conveniently enough, they've no statistics of the sites that utilize a tag filter to make an assumption.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 19, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> The fact that no one tags their stuff frustrates me beyond words.



"no one"


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 19, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> "no one"



Not properly and not for the most part.


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## Blekarotva (Feb 19, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> I'm always seeing horrible justifications for FA not implementing this feature; some actively against the idea of an improvement. Such as "it would be abused" or "no one would use it". Conveniently enough, they've no statistics of the sites that utilize a tag filter to make an assumption.



Yeah, and it's sad. Right now I'd rather browse e621 than FA, I can filter all the stuffs I don't want to see without fearing that something is misstagged or put under the wrong rating. Allowing users to be active in the tagging system is something I'm liking (not just because I'm lazy tagging my own stuffs).


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## Kalmor (Feb 19, 2015)

Sit tight guys, things are about to get exciting. :33

This is your unofficial hint. ;p

If you've been followong Neer/FurAffinity on twitter then you know what I'm talking about.


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## Captain Howdy (Feb 19, 2015)

I know (or at least expect) that I'm in the minority, in saying that I like the current UI. I know it doesn't completely deliever with every semblance of its being, but I dunno if that's quite possible with its age - If it were, I would hope that it would do that, but I assume it's not, based upon complaints?

I'm not afraid or against a new UI, I just hate to have to completely rework visual and muscle memory for so-called "modern" updates. I know it's not the ultimate high-end, but java/flash/html buttons usually equal lag, more graphics, and an overall more cumbersome/unintuitive menu. I can more or less access everything I can possibly want in one or two clicks on the FA website currently, and I don't see that being the norm, let alone easily accessible with any so-called update.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 20, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Sit tight guys, things are about to get exciting. :33
> 
> This is your unofficial hint. ;p
> 
> If you've been followong Neer/FurAffinity on twitter then you know what I'm talking about.



You mean yet another "promise"? We've seen it. And we weren't born yesterday. We know exactly how this will mostly likely play through. We'll care about what he has to share when it's actually implemented.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 20, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Not properly and not for the most part.




Then you're watching the wrong darn people


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 20, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Then you're watching the wrong darn people



You must watch all of two people then. ;3

But hey, Kal says we're gonna see a change. If that came from anyone else I'd not believe it...so I look forward to some progress.


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## jorinda (Feb 20, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> I know a plethora of artists that would appreciate the ability to organize their gallery by personal work, linework, commissions, requests, trades, porn, SFW, etc.



I agree. Now people are making extra accounts for fursuits, for art, for commissions, for porn..... it would be so much easier if we just had folders.


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## Kalmor (Feb 20, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> You mean yet another "promise"? We've seen it. And we weren't born yesterday. We know exactly how this will mostly likely play through. We'll care about what he has to share when it's actually implemented.



Hand on heart this is legit and I will personally resign from my post out of my own frustration if nothing happens in the very near future.

I am super stoked to finally see improvements but I cannot talk about specifics as everything not already mentioned by neer on twitter is still under NDA.


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## StormyChang (Feb 20, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Hand on heart this is legit and I will personally resign from my post out of my own frustration if nothing happens in the very near future.
> 
> I am super stoked to finally see improvements but I cannot talk about specifics as everything not already mentioned by neer on twitter is still under NDA.



nothin' against you man, cause none of it is really your fault.  but we've heard this song and dance before.  5, 6, 7 years of it?
and as far as checking neer's/fa's twitter.. ain't nobody got time for that when we don't even know if he's just saying stuff to make people shut up again or if he's actually telling the truth about the site for once.  i mean if it gets pulled off, that's great.  but at this point i really wouldn't hold my breath just yet.


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## Gryphoneer (Feb 20, 2015)

Forget about HL3, OP, Duke Nukem Forever came out before any site overhauls.

Thinks about _that _for a sec.


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## Kalmor (Feb 20, 2015)

Another teaser for y'all. :33

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/568837451227258880


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## Maugryph (Feb 21, 2015)

Please don't get my hopes up. About a year ago this awesome mockup of the future FA was revealed... it didn't happen.


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## StormyChang (Feb 21, 2015)

i don't believe in teasers like this.  it's been a teaser for a while.  until it's been put into effect and actually, yanno, works.. without breaking.. and actually has the features we want/ask for instead of some stupid fluffy frills somewhere else, i'm not buying it.


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## Kalmor (Feb 21, 2015)

Maugryph said:


> Please don't get my hopes up. About a year ago this awesome mockup of the future FA was revealed... it didn't happen.


Not these ones. The ones you were thinking of were the project phoenix ones.

edit: Which is still going the last time I asked.


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## Gryphoneer (Feb 22, 2015)

This one says $Gender $Country. If they couldn't even copy-paste the info from Piche's real site, I question how far advanced all this really is.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 22, 2015)

Don't buy it, then you'll be more surprised when something happens. I don't care.


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## X_Joshi_X (Feb 22, 2015)

My fursona confirmed Half life 3 a few days ago. You were right OP


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 22, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Forget about HL3, OP, Duke Nukem Forever came out before any site overhauls.
> 
> Thinks about _that _for a sec.



Why should I care? Video games aren't websites.


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## ONEintheinfinite (Feb 22, 2015)

I would lovev a name change option.

I'm trying to put a bigger divide between my sfw and nsfw stuff and i don't want to lose the 295 followers i have on fa. I know it aint much but these guys help me pay my bills.


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## kayfox (Feb 22, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> This one says $Gender $Country. If they couldn't even copy-paste the info from Piche's real site, I question how far advanced all this really is.



It also does not show how many notifications you have.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 23, 2015)

Well. 

Both Piche and the official FurAffinity Twitter claimed a substantial UI update within a generous 30 days. Again. The launch date would be no later than February 22nd of both of those announcements. Please tell me otherwise. It is now February 23rd. There is no update nor a reason why. Not to anyone's surprise. Plenty of time to draw on one's feet, but not live up to expectations.

We can just add this to the ever growing plethora of unfulfilled promises.


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## StarrySpelunker (Feb 23, 2015)

Like everyone else here I'm hoping they are real but then again...project phoenix.

Until changes are implemented I am assuming they are just pretty drawn-up mock-ups.


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## Aidy (Feb 23, 2015)

i'm still waiting on the performance boosts that FA promised us before any of the promises of a new ui, which is still a few years late

the day fa delivers on a promise and it actually works will be the day hell freezes over like 5 times consecutively


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## X_Joshi_X (Feb 23, 2015)

Uuuh. I would love kinda shout-box at the top of the site or such a thingy.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 23, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Well.
> 
> Both Piche and the official FurAffinity Twitter claimed a substantial UI update within a generous 30 days. Again. The launch date would be no later than February 22nd of both of those announcements. Please tell me otherwise. It is now February 23rd. There is no update nor a reason why. Not to anyone's surprise. Plenty of time to draw on one's feet, but not live up to expectations.
> 
> We can just add this to the ever growing plethora of unfulfilled promises.



He's shown previews already, should be happening soon.


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## LizardKing (Feb 23, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> He's shown previews already, should be happening soon.



It's really not necessary to defend the site at every possible opportunity, especially when you're adding literally zero content to the discussion. We know about the "previews", and we know it "should" be soon (already here, in fact). There's no need to repeat it.


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## X_Joshi_X (Feb 23, 2015)

Im looking forward to whatever may come 
Tapatalk or a better mobile site would be cool too.


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## Kalmor (Feb 23, 2015)

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/569937726310649856/photo/1 :33

Also Yak's HDD died (see neer's twitter) so he couldn't deploy the alpha/beta/whatever as intended yesterday, but it gives us an opportunity to work on a few other things like the above. 



X_Joshi_X said:


> Im looking forward to whatever may come
> Tapatalk or a better mobile site would be cool too.


We're focused on tweaking the UI to look awesome on desktop first, but mobile is quite high on the priority list too.



StarrySpelunker said:


> Like everyone else here I'm hoping they are real but then again...project phoenix.
> 
> Until changes are implemented I am assuming they are just pretty drawn-up mock-ups.


These are not drawn up mock-ups. They are live on Yak's and Neer's development "areas" (excuse me for not being too technical) of the site. Currently still undergoing more tweaks and testing while Yak gets his stuff sorted.



Aidy said:


> i'm still waiting on the performance boosts that FA promised us before any of the promises of a new ui, which is still a few years late
> 
> the day fa delivers on a promise and it actually works will be the day hell freezes over like 5 times consecutively


You can monitor FA's performance and uptime here - http://status.furaffinity.net/169836/2015/02

We currently have an average (html) response rate of 357 milliseconds. To put that in perspective, here are some test results comparing FA to various big name sites, with a few other art/furry sites thrown in:

FA - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.furaffinity.net/j0M57Ddg
Youtube - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.youtube.com/uWEwrEsA - Scored lower than FA
Reddit - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.reddit.com/WNI3Mixb - Scored higher than FA
Weasyl - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.weasyl.com/TUfxzbfD - Lower than FA edit: I linked a different weasyl site <.< >.> Edited with correct URL, still lower than FA.
dA - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.deviantart.com/BbvJRn3P - Did terribly, way lower than FA and others in this list
BBC - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.bbc.co.uk/Gk283cZ9 - Lower than FA

Feel free to find other sites faster than FA, and feel free to look through the statistics histories of these sites. These scores were taken at the times listed at the top of the page and from (for some reason) Vancouver, Canada using firefox.


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## StormyChang (Feb 23, 2015)

yaaay~ more excuses.  
also... editable comments?  really?  that's their big wow?  out of us begging for so much more/other things?

also, i think your website lies.  the one that talks about % of uptime and other things.  it said for Dec. of 2013 it was a 99.16% uptime.  did it just magically forget that for a minimum of 2 weeks (though i think it was actually closer to 3), the site was completely down and unreachable?  or does it count 'uptime' as something completely different than the site being up, running, and useable?


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## Kalmor (Feb 23, 2015)

StormyChang said:


> yaaay~ more excuses.
> also... editable comments?  really?  that's their big wow?  out of us begging for so much more/other things?
> 
> also, i think your website lies.  the one that talks about % of uptime and other things.  it said for Dec. of 2013 it was a 99.16% uptime.  did it just magically forget that for a minimum of 2 weeks (though i think it was actually closer to 3), the site was completely down and unreachable?  or does it count 'uptime' as something completely different than the site being up, running, and useable?


We use pingdom as our 3rd party stats tracker. I do not know what pingdom constitutes as being "downtime". I do not know enough about this topic to provide a satisfactory answer, I'm afraid.

I will note however that stats tracking for FA's CDN (content delivery network) was only added in November 2014, and the FA main results for html request time for that peroid of of time (dec 2013) was occasionally upwards of 2 seconds (2000 milliseconds, as compared to our current 357). This is just for the html code. You can also see it dropping in and out over the course of those few weeks, going down multiple times a day.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 23, 2015)

StormyChang said:


> yaaay~ more excuses.
> also... editable comments?  really?  that's their big wow?  out of us begging for so much more/other things?


The UI was actually intended (and originally) supposed to have been done last August/September as part of the Summer Updates. Clearly, things failed and went sour with that. It reached a really bad peak, and pretty much everything both in my personal and professional life were put on backburner to my job. Yes, it's a poor excuse, but life unfortunately got the better of me and a lot of things fell by the wayside.

Now, with things as they currently are, my days are spent fixing and improving FA across the board. Yes, I admit, we're playing a bit of catchup and there's a lot of things on the plate to contend with. Editable Comments are NOT the wow-factor, but a part of the larger equation.

The UI improvements are going to be rolled out in stages.

Making the site faster, improve performance and end-user experience. Performance is the primary issue for a lot of people, and improving reliability and accessibility is where we start. To that end, we've purchased roughly $8,000 worth of new server gear to roll out a new storage/file system to allow FA to support larger uploads and more robust content. We will be adding another storage server (mirroring the first) to compliment the system as we also work to phase out older.

As part of this, we will also be focusing on core improvements to the UI. A better note system (not perfect, but better), editable comments and lots of tiny, little fixes that make life better all around.

After that, we focus on mobility. Making FA work better and more reliably on mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets. I'm already working on this part of the phase, and some of it is going to leak over into the beta.

As for the question why does it say "$Gender $Country"? Because those are to be added in. Enhancing user profiles is a priority, and giving users more ability to tweak and improve their profiles is high on my list. No, it's not perfect, and yes, there are many, MANY more improvements which need to be done along the way.

Delays and unforeseen circumstances (some good, some bad) have really crept up in the way of this project, but I'm dead set on getting something out which will be better.


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## Blekarotva (Feb 23, 2015)

If we're getting editable comments I hope we're also getting the option to disable comments on submissions.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 23, 2015)

Blekarotva said:


> If we're getting editable comments I hope we're also getting the option to disable comments on submissions.


This is on the list of things to implement, yes. The beta needs a bunch of tweaking, but giving users the ability to disable comments is one oft requested and towards the top of the list.


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## RedSavage (Feb 23, 2015)

What's funny is that once they do implement a new UI people will complain about about it anyways.


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## Hewge (Feb 23, 2015)

Update?! *CHANGE?!* I don't like this! Rarghghg things should stay old and terrible


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## Kalmor (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks Neer for coming in and clearing more things up. ^^ 



RedSavage said:


> What's funny is that once they do implement a new UI people will complain about about it anyways.


It's inevitable. There will be the select few who'll find something, anything to nitpick and complain about, but we hope the vast majority of users will love that finally something about the UI has been updated to look more modern, for one. A part of what this is is to also try to regain the trust I know some of the userbase has lost because of setback after setback after failiure. I understand the frustration completely.


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## Socks the Fox (Feb 23, 2015)

I bet it'd be a lot cheaper to upgrade the slow code behind the site than the hardware struggling underneath it.


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## Kalmor (Feb 23, 2015)

Socks the Fox said:


> I bet it'd be a lot cheaper to upgrade the slow code behind the site than the hardware struggling underneath it.


That's what phoenix is doing. Full, ground up site recode. Last I heard is that the people responsible are still ploughing on in their spare time, but you'd have to ask Neer.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 23, 2015)

Socks the Fox said:


> I bet it'd be a lot cheaper to upgrade the slow code behind the site than the hardware struggling underneath it.


That doesn't work for storage servers, when you need to add 20TB of additional storage to host files. Code can't quite improve that. You can reduce /some/ space, but it's hard to add additional storage through software.


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## StormyChang (Feb 23, 2015)

RedSavage said:


> What's funny is that once they do implement a new UI people will complain about about it anyways.



of course we will if it fails to work, like always.
If it actually turns out ok and functions, won't be a thing to complain about.


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## jorinda (Feb 24, 2015)

StormyChang said:


> If it actually turns out ok and functions, won't be a thing to complain about.


Even if it works, someone will nag about the new things being ugly or something.

Concerning things that should be fixed within five minutes: Why do I have to re-enter my age manually every year? Why not enter a birth date and have the site count on its own?


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## Kalmor (Feb 24, 2015)

jorinda said:


> Even if it works, someone will nag about the new things being ugly or something.
> 
> Concerning things that should be fixed within five minutes: Why do I have to re-enter my age manually every year? Why not enter a birth date and have the site count on its own?


Of course there will, as I said in my post above. We will have a "legacy" option for a while if people don't like the new UI. There will come a point however that we will have to remove that option and the old UI. If we want to add some more complex site functionality then maintaining 2 diffrrent UIs and updating them to be able to work with the new feature would take too much time.

I don't know about the age thing. It ~should~ be really simple in theory (and in practice if I'm totally honest here). If it isn't already on our fix list for updates then I'll suggest it.


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## MaximizedNOVA (Feb 24, 2015)

Is there a public list of all possible changes?


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## Kalmor (Feb 24, 2015)

MaximizedGamer said:


> Is there a public list of all possible changes?


There sorta is. The feature request trello page. https://trello.com/b/SmYk47aD/fur-affinity-feature-requests

Suggestions will go from user suggestions ---> Approved ---> Moved to dev ops (or of course rejected). The chronology of these is sorta messed up (galleries apparently being more finished than stuff I know to be coming in the UI tweaks that are still at the "suggestion" stage).


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## quoting_mungo (Feb 24, 2015)

jorinda said:


> Concerning things that should be fixed within five minutes: Why do I have to re-enter my age manually every year? Why not enter a birth date and have the site count on its own?


Originally, probably because of poor design choices.

The very valid point has been made, though, that at this point the age field is used by a fair number of users to indicate their character's age or similar, which is one reason we also don't mature lock people based on that field alone.

I mean, I think I was 25 for two or three years on FA (ie I couldn't be bothered to update my age), and I'm old enough at this point that I'm fine with that.


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## Croconaw (Feb 24, 2015)

Pretty convenient HD crash.



Kalmor said:


> Hand on heart this is legit and I will personally resign from my post out of my own frustration if nothing happens in the very near future.
> 
> I am super stoked to finally see improvements but I cannot talk about specifics as everything not already mentioned by neer on twitter is still under NDA.




Are you ready to walk among the commoners of "Not a FA/F mod"? Because you just signed your own resignation with this.


Once more, my avatar completely summarizes my sentiments.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 24, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> Hand on heart this is legit and *I will personally resign from my post out of my own frustration* if nothing happens *in the very near future*.



Are you certain you want to play that game, Kalmor? Do you _really_ want to test your luck on that? Because the chances are nowhere close to being in your favor. Not by any stretch.


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## Kalmor (Feb 24, 2015)

Yes. I'm a man of my word, and I will leave if I see one more thing that originally looks promising (like this) but then all of a sudden there's no word of it for an extended period of time after.

I am confident, however. Remember, I can see things internally that most people can't see. There is progress being made each day with no sign of stopping that I can see. I wouldn't say something like what I did if it didn't believe it or not willing to follow through.


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## Croconaw (Feb 24, 2015)

I would not mind eating my shoe. Seriously, an update for FA would be FAbulous, but lets face it: Years of getting burned makes you pretty damn pessimistic. And the chances of this FAiling are pretty high up there.

Case in point: FA UI update delay cause dragoneer's dog ate his HDD.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Case in point: FA UI update delay cause dragoneer's dog ate his HDD.


Not my HDD. My system did not go down.


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## Croconaw (Feb 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Not my HDD. My system did not go down.



So FA isn't your baby anymore?


I ammend my previous response, "A dog took a piss on one of FA's HDs that contained this so called UI Update, all conveniently happening on the due date".


The only way to plead not guilty in this court case is to submit decisive evidence, aka the UI update that has been delayed for years.


Your move, Yugi.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 24, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> So FA isn't your baby anymore?
> 
> I ammend my previous response, "A dog took a piss on one of FA's HDs that contained this so called UI Update, all conveniently happening on the due date".
> 
> ...


FA will always be my baby. And Yugi? And Yak's system took a nose dive. The UI's pretty much ready to go into a beta, though isn't done and does need some refinements. I'm spending pretty much all available time improving this and trying to make things better, but some of the improvements to the UI also will be carried over to the current UI as well. Since some of the UI is in fact code changes (maybe not all apparent, but there are changes and fixes) the delay on Yak's end has lead to some additional delays. 

I'm very frustrated that there's been delays, especially after all this time.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 24, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Not my HDD. My system did not go down.



https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/569937726310649856 Why this at first? And then why not follow it up with "A problem on Yak's side" instead of "An HD crash".

I think you'd be able to ease people's frustration if you just gave honest and open answers every now and then. The UI has been in progress for *years* now, stop giving dates if you're not going to keep them. Yes, we all know real life is a thing and problems do happen, I think at this point you've used that as an excuse so many times that maybe you've stopped saying it and it's just echoing back on its own like that one scene in the Grinch.


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## Croconaw (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> FA will always be my baby. And Yugi? And Yak's system took a nose dive. The UI's pretty much ready to go into a beta, though isn't done and does need some refinements. I'm spending pretty much all available time improving this and trying to make things better, but some of the improvements to the UI also will be carried over to the current UI as well. Since some of the UI is in fact code changes (maybe not all apparent, but there are changes and fixes) the delay on Yak's end has lead to some additional delays.
> 
> I'm very frustrated that there's been delays, especially after all this time.




Over 3 years of delay.


Prove me wrong Piche, but I have my suspicions that this is going to be a continuation of the famous infinite loop know as "soonâ„¢".



Also, do you even Yugioh?


----------



## PheagleAdler (Feb 25, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Also, do you even Yugioh?



People still play that?


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 25, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> People still play that?



Somebody doesn't believe in the heart of the cards. :C


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## Accountability (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> FA will always be my baby.



Please stop this. FA is not your "baby". FA is a business that a lot of people rely on to make a decent living. People are keeping a roof over their heads through income generated through this website, and you treat it like a toy that you can play with on a whim or throw in a corner when you're not in the mood.

You have outright owned this website for the better part of a decade and done very little to improve it. There are no more developers than there were when you took ownership of it. There have been promise after promise after promise that a new UI is coming "real soon now", and previews shown that get taken down and never seen again. The site does not turn a profit and the vast majority of the hardware it runs on has been donated through the good will of people who apparently have not paid attention to or cared about the scandals that have plagued this site since it's inception.

Editable Comments is practically PHP 101, as is turning comments off. The fact that these are being paraded around and shown off as big "improvements" gives a good indication of what we can expect from this update. Pointless little features that nobody asked for while the big picture stuff (folders, filters, etc) is once again promised for a later date. 

These are things that should be taking a matter of days, not months. A new UI shouldn't take years to do. Yak's hard drive should not prevent ANYTHING from happening. Why aren't there more developers? Why aren't you asking for help with the UI? These are things that people have offered to do and each time they get ignored. I'm getting really tired of saying this.

This site is too big for you to run alone. If you insist on staying the course, it *will* fail. It's only going to take a competing site that hits on a few key features (and I've watched this show for long enough to know what those are) to cause your house of cards to come crashing down around you.



Kalmor said:


> Sit tight guys, things are about to get exciting. :33
> 
> This is your unofficial hint. ;p
> 
> If you've been followong Neer/FurAffinity on twitter then you know what I'm talking about.



Was it this tweet about the new UI being ready in 2011? Or this one from 2013 about how the UI and folders are their "only priority"????


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## Gryphoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Oh hey, it's you. Weren't you banned?

Oh well, you're on the best way to replicate that anyway by rocking the boat.


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## BRN (Feb 25, 2015)

I'm pretty sure it's past Accountability's bedtime. Don't worry about it too much, Gryphon.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Oh hey, it's you. Weren't you banned?
> 
> Oh well, you're on the best way to replicate that anyway by rocking the boat.



What all is wrong in what he said though? He brings up a good point that his site is over 10 years old, nowhere in the 10 years did Neer learn anything about how to maintain his own baby? Why does Yak have to be the one bottle-necking progress if Neer's work is already done? 

And I've brought up before that this site is in need of more people who are capable of fixing it up, it's a shame we've had people here and there, ex-admins as well with horror stories on how much progress is impeded because a select few up top. This UI project has been in the works for *YEARS* as I stated again above, combine this with every else that is totally coming soon, how any hype is left in what is said is beyond me.

At this point, anyone trying to bring up criticism or provoke change shouldn't be 'rocking the boat'. Some are less polite about it than others of course, but it does get a bit taxing on the psyche on how little anyone's voice seems to matter anymore.


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## StormyChang (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> FA will always be my baby. And Yugi? And Yak's system took a nose dive. The UI's pretty much ready to go into a beta, though isn't done and does need some refinements. I'm spending pretty much all available time improving this and trying to make things better, but some of the improvements to the UI also will be carried over to the current UI as well. Since some of the UI is in fact code changes (maybe not all apparent, but there are changes and fixes) the delay on Yak's end has lead to some additional delays.
> 
> I'm very frustrated that there's been delays, especially after all this time.





Rowedahelicon said:


> Why does Yak have to be the one bottle-necking progress if Neer's work is already done?



People have been talking about yak's incompetence for years.  People that are far better at coding than I, discussing how to make coding changes, make it more stable, updated, and more streamlined.  People who's actual irl job it is to do coding.  But yak still gets a free pass?  Many of these people have offered their services for free.  Does anyone know how fast and how accurately shit in coding would get done if neer would just, i dunno, listen?  and sit down with the volunteers in a group, talk it over, and done.  What, is neer afraid of yak?  

I really feel like at this point FA just needs to be torn completely down to it's base.  Get a real team of admins and mods who don't play this favorites game, or are buddy-buddy pals/relations of neer, and some coders who know what their doing and keep deadlines.  I would be willing to bet money, that if they announced FA would be down for a day or two to implement this rebuild and put it in to place, that no one would scream (too terribly loud) if it came back up and worked beautifully.
But we're still, and seems like we'll always just be putting a band-aid on missing limb.


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## Croconaw (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> I'm pretty sure it's past Accountability's bedtime. Don't worry about it too much, Gryphon.



I'm quite positive that if you were an artist, you'd be somewhat intrigued by Accountability's statements. It's best to keep in mind that not everyone on FA/F uses the site as a method to find individuals to conduct lewd activities with.


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## BRN (Feb 25, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'm quite positive that if you were an artist, you'd be somewhat intrigued by Accountability's statements. It's best to keep in mind that not everyone on FA/F uses the site as a method to find individuals to conduct lewd activities with.


The greatest of baits, m8. 

Accountability's always had a lot of interesting points to raise and the guy manages to lift some serious questions up out of the darkness. But the time has long since moved on for me to take his acerbic tone seriously, artist or not.

There's now plenty of competing standards for FA, and several of 'em are damned real competitors. So those who stick around, Accountability included, must have some investment to keep them here, eh? 

So it's natural that with that investment comes a desire to help shape FA into a better form, Tosh. But using that facade as an excuse to phrase everything as an attack, which Accountability has always and forever done, is just as transparent as back when people were using "but we have to keep the forums clear of the harmful newbies :c" as an excuse to be dicks to new users on the forums.

We're all human (or 'mons) here, probably adults for the most part; civility's a skill we possess, and sharp tongues just make me roll my eyes. Forgive that trait of mine.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> The greatest of baits, m8.
> 
> Accountability's always had a lot of interesting points to raise and the guy manages to lift some serious questions up out of the darkness. But the time has long since moved on for me to take his acerbic tone seriously, artist or not.
> 
> ...



I practiced civility with Dragoneer and got banned from viewing his twitter or directly commenting to him on FA. Civility works when both parties are willing to listen which isn't always the case with him. 

Even the advertisers who pay him have to wait weeks sometimes to hear back. I don't blame anyone for getting upset in the long run when all they want is to be heard.

Someone else said he made good points, that is all that matters.


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## Croconaw (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> The greatest of baits, m8.
> 
> Accountability's always had a lot of interesting points to raise and the guy manages to lift some serious questions up out of the darkness. But the time has long since moved on for me to take his acerbic tone seriously, artist or not.
> 
> ...



Despite his intentions with the statement, there was absolutely nothing wrong about what he brought up. Dismissing it as "He's doing it to be a troll" is rather upsetting and very tiresome for those that legitimately are upset for the points he mentioned and it very much does make you look like someone who's on the "Hey Neer, ur doing the best you can :3" bandwagon who is quite satisfied with a stagnant and rather lackluster site. 


At least with Accountability, he aptly named himself (which I found humorous) for a trait Piche has lacked since the day he got his hands on this site. If it weren't for the timing that FA was created, I doubt it'd be as successful as it is today, and its a damn shame because it very much does have the perfect level of userflow simply because of this and not because of what FA as a whole has for features. Knowing this, its almost as if he is fine with keeping things like this.


I don't understand how anyone could resist being snide after all the broken promises being made throughout the years.

Lastly, mundane posting and dismissive, snide comments invoke a similar condition with my eyes as well. I will forgive you if you forgive me.


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## RTDragon (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I practiced civility with Dragoneer and got banned from viewing his twitter or directly commenting to him on FA. Civility works when both parties are willing to listen which isn't always the case with him.
> 
> Even the advertisers who pay him have to wait weeks sometimes to hear back. I don't blame anyone for getting upset in the long run when all they want is to be heard.
> 
> Someone else said he made good points, that is all that matters.




Also the fact there are still messages about this shows quite a lot about the main problem here. In fact if i recall there was an AB about the advertisements from an artist. It's really clear that it's too much for one person to run and other sites have solved this issue for quite a number of years.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> civility's a skill we possess, and sharp tongues just make me roll my eyes. Forgive that trait of mine.





BRN said:


> I'm pretty sure it's past Accountability's bedtime. Don't worry about it too much, Gryphon.



Please drop the pseudo-intellectualism if you plan to be a hypocrite.



BRN said:


> So it's natural that with that investment comes a desire to help shape FA into a better form, Tosh. But using that facade as an excuse to phrase everything as an attack, which Accountability has always and forever done, is just as transparent as back when people were using "but we have to keep the forums clear of the harmful newbies :c" as an excuse to be dicks to new users on the forums.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]


[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]How exactly is demanding improvements that have been promised but not delivered for years and advising Dragoneer to get _real_ assistance from professionals with credentials an attack on your precious website?[/FONT]


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> The greatest of baits, m8.
> 
> Accountability's always had a lot of interesting points to raise and the guy manages to lift some serious questions up out of the darkness. But the time has long since moved on for me to take his acerbic tone seriously, artist or not.
> 
> ...



I think the man that points out that the roof might cave in loves his house more than the person who ignores it.


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## BRN (Feb 25, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> How exactly is demanding improvements that have been promised but not delivered for years and advising Dragoneer to get _real_ assistance from professionals with credentials an attack on your precious website?



As I said, Accountability's had a long history of raising the right questions to ask. That's not in question. His tone and approach are what I find disagreeable. 

Something I'd really appreciate overall is closure to a suspicion of mine, one I went halfway to stating, back in my reply to Toshabi: do users like Accountability _use_ the fact they are acting supposedly for social good as a glib excuse for acting in antisocial ways?


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> \
> Something I'd really appreciate overall is closure to a suspicion of mine, one I went halfway to stating, back in my reply to Toshabi: do users like Accountability _use_ the fact they are acting supposedly for social good as a glib excuse for acting in antisocial ways?



Well, this thread is about site development. Not analyzing the psyche of users. And I haven't passed through fire and death to brandy creed words with a witless worm. :VVV (Hope you're a tolkein fan XD) 

So let's get back on topic, kay?


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## Croconaw (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> As I said, Accountability's had a long history of raising the right questions to ask. That's not in question. His tone and approach are what I find disagreeable.
> 
> Something I'd really appreciate overall is closure to a suspicion of mine, one I went halfway to stating, back in my reply to Toshabi: do users like Accountability _use_ the fact they are acting supposedly for social good as a glib excuse for acting in antisocial ways?



I will counter your inquiry with one of my own: Does that truly give you the right to be ignorant to very valid points brought up by a jester?

Its like rolling your eyes at someone who's laughing at you, pointing out you're about to walk into a pitfall. Perhaps it's a matter of pride or the fact that you've a history of following the 'biggest' dog in the room.


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## BRN (Feb 25, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I will counter your inquiry with one of my own: Does that truly give you the right to be ignorant to very valid points brought up by a jester?
> 
> Its like rolling your eyes at someone who's laughing at you, pointing out you're about to walk into a pitfall. Perhaps it's a matter of pride or the fact that you've a history of following the 'biggest' dog in the room.



In a word? Nope. Heck, like I've said more than a few times now, Accountability raises some real valid points. 

But you haven't countered anything. Someone can make a valid point, or they can make a valid point and choose to be a dick about it. I don't see the purpose of superfluous being-a-dickery. It detracts from everything.


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## Croconaw (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN said:


> In a word? Nope. Heck, like I've said more than a few times now, Accountability raises some real valid points.
> 
> But you haven't countered anything. Someone can make a valid point, or they can make a valid point and choose to be a dick about it. I don't see the purpose of superfluous being-a-dickery. It detracts from everything.



So you're derailing the thread because of your feelings and personal interpretations?


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## RTDragon (Feb 25, 2015)

In other words your a hypocrite BRN. Hate to say this but in this case it's called for harsh criticism about this site.


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## Runefox (Feb 25, 2015)

BRN, you're acting like you're the helmsman on the Titanic and Accountability is pointing out the ice berg ahead - Your response: lol bich wach dis imma ram it ul c

There is a reason why I don't come here anymore, and why I refuse to use the main site, and that has everything to do with the way it's (not) run. For the past decade, the site has:


Run like a dog
Looked like complete ass
Run on hastily built code that was never meant to handle the volume that it has
Been absolute swiss cheese insofar as security goes
Had several half-hearted attempts at fixing the above with no success because at some point or another the people working on it either came to their senses and/or angered The Great and Powerful God and get shitcanned because they're "untrustworthy" (especially ironic given more recent hiring practices)
Had many cases of politics coming first, especially in cases where individuals close to The Great and Powerful God request privileges; Staff are at least as much hired for their connections as their credentials (See also: Sciggles, Chase, Zaush, Zidonuke; The "forgetting" of more promising development efforts that don't immediately show fruit in exchange for a more "exciting" project involving a big name artist)
An administrative staff which rarely admits to mistakes, even when they reverse decisions, and is openly argumentative and hostile against users who disagree with their actions (See also: The hiring of Zaush, the hiring of Zidonuke)
An administrative staff which has no accountability, has no transparency, and most importantly generally consistently fail to perform their jobs
Continued to employ staff which have blatantly violated site security and trust in using community-sponsored hardware both for personal use and by reselling, and who has done precious little to actually benefit the site in general (Yak)
Continued to employ staff in positions of conduct enforcement who are lenient with or even openly support those who break "zero tolerance" site rules such as zoophilia and cub art, and who themselves have in the past failed to comply with their own rules
Constantly promised that change is coming, and yet the biggest visible update beyond banning sprees that was ever put in place has been a simple CSS tweak to navigation
Continually promised further updates even to the visual layout, which have yet to materialize in any form no matter how many deadlines pass
Hailed increasing user counts as proof of popularity, when renaming user accounts is not an option and many people are actually simply re-registering
Attempted to outright perform fraud while attempting to gain venture capital (original link, http://www.invstor.com/users/sean-piche was taken down over this)
Always had defenders who stick their fingers in their ears and yell I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA EVERYTHING IS FINE
Also always had doomsayers, but it's not hard to see why
And that's barely scratching the surface of Mount Shitmore here.

Call me anti-FA all you like; Call me a troll, call me a hater, but the facts is the facts, and if you have to dismiss them because I've yelled at Dragoneer before and thus clearly am his enemy, then I guess you never really had an opinion of your own. The way *I* see it, the problems that FA faces are a direct result of the things that haven't really changed over the years; The "top brass" in particular. In my view, the only way that FA can survive another decade is for the leadership to abdicate and allow someone competent to take a crack at things.

FA isn't "your baby", Dragoneer. FA is "your $25000 debt that is totally worth it because people look up to you as the leader of what was at one time considered the only heart and home of the furry fandom" that you purchased from Jheryn (and without consulting Arcturus to boot). Look at this trainwreck of a decade FA's been through. Look back at that planetary scar. The only saving grace in it for you has been that you're the "leader of the furries", because you're sure as hell not making any money, and you don't have any big updates or other great changes to look back on and say "yup, I did that, that was all me". All the remotely positive things that you do for FA can be summed up as slotting hard drives into a rack unit, building extraneous server hardware, begging for money, and organizing the con. Aside from that, virtually every decision you've made has been selfish, destructive, and "minimum required effort".

And yet you complain when people call you out on this. As if being held accountable for your actions that have affected and will continue to affect the broader community by default is somehow unfair.

Remember, you're the one who purchased FA. Of course you know by now that running a business is no easy task, and when your business is held up by the good will of those who use your services, you should be making damned sure that they're kept happy. Yes, you bought it, but it's your users who must be kept happy - Not you. You have proven yourself incapable of handling the stresses that running FA imposes on you, and quite frankly for the sake of a prestige title like "owner of Ferrox Art, LLC", I would seriously suggest favouring your own mental health and the health of your credit score over it.

Now, honestly, I don't give a shit what the response is here. I probably won't come back to this thread to check on it. What I'm saying here is what I feel needs to be said, bottom line. Just ask any artist who makes a living from FA and you'll very likely get an "I don't like FA but I have to use it" out of them. People are straight up getting sick of the shit they're asked to put up with on FA, and more and more all the time are putting feelers out in other directions.

Dragoneer, you have the choice between stepping aside to let someone more competent run things or ignoring the heaping pile of terrible decisions that you've made and continue to ignorantly move forward. You've had 10 years to come up with something - _*anything*_ - to improve the site. You've missed deadline after deadline after deadline, and here we are in 2015 and the site is visibly nearly identical to how it was in 2005. Your money saved FA in the beginning, but now your lack of effective leadership is sinking it again. Your users are your stock-holders, your goods, your source of income, and the foundation upon which everything is built. Ignore everything else I've said thus far if you have to, but don't ignore this: Do what's best for them. Maybe if you do, we'll see FA live to turn 20.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 25, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Bravo



I sit in awe.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Feb 25, 2015)

Runefox said:


> Call me anti-FA all you like;



I don't think anyone who would give such a detailed and in depth critique could hate FA. Rather I think you care a lot about FA, you just cannot bear to see it in its current condition.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I don't think anyone who would give such a detailed and in depth critique could hate FA. Rather I think you care a lot about FA, you just cannot bear to see it in its current condition.



My sentiments exactly, that was beautifully worded.

And it relates to what I said earlier, this bickering between each other does no good for the situation, people see stuff like this and it gives the idea that this side is nothing more than children acting about. The dire truth is, FA has problems. It has had problems, and will continue to have them unless people will all sit down for one moment and agree on it.

Again I say not everyone is going about it politely, but that doesn't make them wrong. Not everyone is going to keep their civility, or their open-mindedness when all they want to do is get their point across, but too many people are plugging their ears.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 25, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> I don't think anyone who would give such a detailed and in depth critique could hate FA. Rather I think you care a lot about FA, you just cannot bear to see it in its current condition.



If only others would be inclined to agree. I've never understood the cheerleading, damage controlling, and "fanboy-ing" that goes on over this site. People who hate something/someone would never provide critique and outline a strategy to improve what is being criticized. Someone _truly_ anti-FA would be what the Quilava flagrantly misjudged Accountability as, trolls. 
Runefox's statement was not anti FA or "trolling". It was anti bullshit and anti sugar coating.

Though I'm awaiting wallposts attempting to pathetically rebuttal every -valid- point he presented.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> If only others would be inclined to agree. I've never understood the cheerleading, damage controlling, and "fanboy-ing" that goes on over this site. People who hate something/someone would never provide critique and outline a strategy to improve what is being criticized. Someone _truly_ anti-FA would be what the Quilava flagrantly misjudged Accountability as, trolls.
> Runefox's statement was not anti FA or "trolling". It was anti bullshit and anti sugar coating.
> 
> Though I'm awaiting wallposts attempting to pathetically rebuttal every -valid- point he presented.



It's a free site :^)

I think a lot of people are just sitting on the idea that either (A) It's a free site, therefore we're not entitled to anything. To which I always say well not only is it a beacon of the fandom it is the main market for all of the arts and crafts. People NEED this site, I know a good amount of people who'd leave if it wouldn't hurt their business doing so. (B) It's just a website lololol, to which I always go back to the previous point. Some people think if it doesn't matter to them, it's not a problem. If the problem doesn't affect them, it's not a problem. Etc and so on.


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## TheArchiver (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> It's a free site :^)
> 
> I think a lot of people are just sitting on the idea that either (A) It's a free site, therefore we're not entitled to anything. To which I always say well not only is it a beacon of the fandom it is the main market for all of the arts and crafts. People NEED this site, I know a good amount of people who'd leave if it wouldn't hurt their business doing so. (B) It's just a website lololol, to which I always go back to the previous point. Some people think if it doesn't matter to them, it's not a problem. If the problem doesn't affect them, it's not a problem. Etc and so on.



Exactly. I have frankly grown sick of these people. A similar group always tells complainers to just leave. As if it's that simple, then when some actually *do* leave, they mock them as BRN did in 2013 after Dragoneer really made a mistake that pushed a large chunk of users to Weasyl. And I think that's the root of why Dragoneer sits on his hands, idle. He knows this. He knows full well most won't and, in many cases, can't leave so he is able to do (or rather _not_ do) whatever he feels he can get away with. Sadly, while it is a large portion crying out, it is still not the majority. There are people who are unaware of the deeper issues and many more who defend them. 

And if it's "just a site", I'd have to wonder why the ones using that strawman (I hate to use that watered down term), are defending it so vehemently then as though it's a personal attachment.


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## Campion1 (Feb 25, 2015)

When I think of FAF, I think of Accountability. I just wish I could say the same for entirety of FA.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Exactly. I have frankly grown sick of these people. A similar group always tells complainers to just leave. As if it's that simple, then when some actually *do* leave, they mock them as BRN did in 2013 after Dragoneer really made a mistake that pushed a large chunk of users to Weasyl. And I think that's the root of why Dragoneer sits on his hands, idle. He knows this. He knows full well most won't and, in many cases, can't leave so he is able to do (or rather _not_ do) whatever he feels he can get away with. Sadly, while it is a large portion crying out, it is still not the majority. There are people who are unaware of the deeper issues and many more who defend them.
> 
> And if it's "just a site", I'd have to wonder why the ones using that strawman (I hate to use that watered down term), are defending it so vehemently then as though it's a personal attachment.



Exactly, good catch on the just leave the site bit, I forgot that myself. And I agree, I think there is a large mass who is just uneducated on the details of things, they see people trying to kick up dirt and default to oh it's just furry drama guys lol.
I just don't see where people still continue to assume nothing could possibly be wrong with management. There is still always someone at the ready to post how they feel this time it'll be different and surely it will happen.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I practiced civility with Dragoneer and got banned from viewing his twitter or directly commenting to him on FA. Civility works when both parties are willing to listen which isn't always the case with him.


No. I blocked you from viewing my Twitter and removed you from my contacts when you started quoting Hasky, who was outright lying, and when I pointed it out you basically said "So?" and kept posting it to Reddit.

I have no problems taking the hits I deserve from my failures. I have ever problem with somebody who's going to quote a liar and give our DDOSing friend a little pedestal to stand on and make him a hero. That's not civility.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> No. I blocked you from viewing my Twitter and removed you from my contacts when you started quoting Hasky, who was outright lying, and when I pointed it out you basically said "So?" and kept posting it to Reddit.
> 
> I have no problems taking the hits I deserve from my failures. I have ever problem with somebody who's going to quote a liar and give our DDOSing friend a little pedestal to stand on and make him a hero. That's not civility.



Hasky told me to put stuff on reddit, said it'd be the only way you would ever come to me and he was right. You and I talked it over skype though, and I agreed to what you had told me. Then you followed up with the blocking me from everything, our skype convo ended with me telling you exactly what I was trying to do and you never responded, care to elaborate?


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 25, 2015)

Twitter stuff is so off topic and frankly, not what I came to this thread for. Let's just focus on improving the site's features.


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## Dragoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Hasky told me to put stuff on reddit, said it'd be the only way you would ever come to me and he was right. You and I talked it over skype though, and I agreed to what you had told me. Then you followed up with the blocking me from everything, our skype convo ended with me telling you exactly what I was trying to do and you never responded, care to elaborate?



Because I saw what the Reddit thread was devolving into, and saw no  clarifications/updates... but meanwhile I was dealing with all the  fallout from it, rather than being able to actually get to work on  things. It created nothing but drama, and it was dumped in my lap. And  given everything else going on at the time, it was a massive nightmare  dealing with that, the DDOSes and I felt focusing on the site was more  important.

That aside, 2015 has changed my life completely. And will, in turn, change FA's. New mod staff are coming on, tickets are being crunched, new servers are coming online and much change is in the air. I've gone from work 60-70+ hours a week at a job I loathe and hated to having the time I need to focus on FA.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> Twitter stuff is so off topic and frankly, not what I came to this thread for. Let's just focus on improving the site's features.



Not necessarily, this regards a few threads I made on reddit regarding the problems around here, I had Neer close by as I was supposed to be apart of Project Phoenix. Him and I have tried to talk one on one, but he has ignored me despite how passive I've been with him one on one. If he would like to accuse me of putting idiots on pedestals then I will answer him if it means not ruining my credibility. 

I was told to not reveal something, and I've been very good about that so if he could grant me and by extension the others here just trying to get some reason some discussion without slinging shit around, that would be lovely.


----------



## Butters Shikkon (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I had Neer close by as I was supposed to be apart of Project Phoenix. \



Oh, you were some form of staff? Do excuse my ignorance then.


----------



## Dragoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I was told to not reveal something, and I've been very good about that so if he could grant me and by extension the others here just trying to get some reason some discussion without slinging shit around, that would be lovely.


Then I apologize for that. I've been working exceedingly hard at getting things back on track, and I'm nearing the point where I'm almost there -- a feeling I've not had for quite some time.

Again, I apologize.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Because I saw what the Reddit thread was devolving into, and saw no  clarifications/updates... but meanwhile I was dealing with all the  fallout from it, rather than being able to actually get to work on  things. It created nothing but drama, and it was dumped in my lap. And  given everything else going on at the time, it was a massive nightmare  dealing with that, the DDOSes and I felt focusing on the site was more  important.
> 
> That aside, 2015 has changed my life completely. And will, in turn, change FA's. New mod staff are coming on, tickets are being crunched, new servers are coming online and much change is in the air. I've gone from work 60-70+ hours a week at a job I loathe and hated to having the time I need to focus on FA.



What good does blocking me do in that instance? The Reddit threads were designed to inform people of events and raise awareness. If you disagreed with me, you were more than welcome to come in and explain yourself. In fact that is what we have been trying to get you to do here. You did make some journals, with Chase's help, but you still did them so good so far.

I'm sorry to have created drama for you, I really am, but perhaps if you make the right decisions and not perpetually make mistake after mistake, I and everyone else here wouldn't have more to call you out on. I could have deleted the Reddit posts for example if you asked me to, it's not my fault you blocked me.

All in all Dragoneer, this is boiling down to you coming here there and everywhere making these fancy promises and getting all upset at us when we get upset when they don't happen. I'm glad 2015 is going better for you so far, but this is already not a good start to it and I'm already in the know of some other stuff that is sure to blow over just nicely later. I'd be extremely careful when resorting to put me down on your forums using claims that don't have much merit.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Then I apologize for that. I've been working exceedingly hard at getting things back on track, and I'm nearing the point where I'm almost there -- a feeling I've not had for quite some time.
> 
> Again, I apologize.



I sure hope you actually mean it, because I am not happy with how I've been treated.

In all honestly, admin to admin, I would seriously consider stepping down if this is too much for you, I don't think you're a bad guy and I don't want to see you keep dragging yourself and your reputation through the mud for this sort of shit.


----------



## Dragoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> What good does blocking me do in that instance? The Reddit threads were designed to inform people of events and raise awareness. If you disagreed with me, you were more than welcome to come in and explain yourself. In fact that is what we have been trying to get you to do here. You did make some journals, with Chase's help, but you still did them so good so far.
> 
> I'm sorry to have created drama for you, I really am, but perhaps if you make the right decisions and not perpetually make mistake after mistake, I and everyone else here wouldn't have more to call you out on. I could have deleted the Reddit posts for example if you asked me to, it's not my fault you blocked me.
> 
> All in all Dragoneer, this is boiling down to you coming here there and everywhere making these fancy promises and getting all upset at us when we get upset when they don't happen. I'm glad 2015 is going better for you so far, but this is already not a good start to it and I'm already in the know of some other stuff that is sure to blow over just nicely later. I'd be extremely careful when resorting to put me down on your forums using claims that don't have much merit.


Because the Reddit thread wasn't true, did not contain any actual evidence, but treated it like it did. So I got angry because I viewed it as a thread intended to spread lies and misinformation, and when I tried to bring that to your attention, nothing was done. It felt like you had put out a baiting thread, caused a lot of drama, then it was "Here, you clean it up." You didn't offer to remove it, and given everything that was going on at the time, I was at a breaking point. Working 12+ hours a day, then coming  home to deal with that... it's not easy. And I'd have gladly participated in the Reddit threads to clear things up, but again, I'm not dealing with threads that are pure fiction -- may not by you, but by Hasky. And as you said, you posted what he told you to, but they were incorrect.

I legitimately don't want drama. I don't like dealing with it. It was too much at the time, and I couldn't handle it. I was already working mandatory overtime and dealing with a move, and had too much going on my plate. I felt like this was forced on me to deal with, and felt I had other priorities (the site) at the time.

And I've let the site down, I've broken my own promises, and I'm not happy about that. I've been trying to get everything up to speed to make the 22nd as a deadline, and I missed it. I'm not happy about that, but it's literally right around the corner. I'm just waiting to hear back from yak on the issue.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Because the Reddit thread wasn't true, did not contain any actual evidence, but treated it like it did. So I got angry because I viewed it as a thread intended to spread lies and misinformation, and when I tried to bring that to your attention, nothing was done. It felt like you had put out a baiting thread, caused a lot of drama, then it was "Here, you clean it up." You didn't offer to remove it, and given everything that was going on at the time, I was at a breaking point. Working 12+ hours a day, then coming  home to deal with that... it's not easy. And I'd have gladly participated in the Reddit threads to clear things up, but again, I'm not dealing with threads that are pure fiction -- may not by you, but by Hasky. And as you said, you posted what he told you to, but they were incorrect.
> 
> I legitimately don't want drama. I don't like dealing with it. It was too much at the time, and I couldn't handle it. I was already working mandatory overtime and dealing with a move, and had too much going on my plate. I felt like this was forced on me to deal with, and felt I had other priorities (the site) at the time.
> 
> And I've let the site down, I've broken my own promises, and I'm not happy about that. I've been trying to get everything up to speed to make the 22nd as a deadline, and I missed it. I'm not happy about that, but it's literally right around the corner. I'm just waiting to hear back from yak on the issue.



Working 12 hours a day sucks, I get that, that's why we're saying maybe it's time you considered letting someone else handle it. Be that as it may, a new UI isn't going to make up for everything, it's not going to save the day, or excuse everything. Like I said, I still know a little more about what is going on. 

I don't want drama either, I don't want to fight you, or spend all my time shitposting on FA instead of actually using it. Let me back on your skype, clear some time, and let's talk some shit out because I'm pretty sure you'd benefit from some honest insight rather than angry shouting.


----------



## Dragoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Working 12 hours a day sucks, I get that, that's why we're saying maybe it's time you considered letting someone else handle it. Be that as it may, a new UI isn't going to make up for everything, it's not going to save the day, or excuse everything.


Someone else is handling that, actually.

And no, a UI isn't going to make up for it. I know that. But the UI is a person demon that I need to slay. It will help with the community, and day-to-day life of FA and make things easier long term. It's not the perfect fix FA needs, but it's one that will help and be a good start while we work on everything else. 

The customer service and support end is one of the higher priorities. Users need faster responses to tickets, more consistency and a feeling that their issues are our priorities. So getting the new mod team up to par, fixing certain rules and the UI as well as paving way for things in the future is where I'm at right now.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> Someone else is handling that, actually.
> 
> And no, a UI isn't going to make up for it. I know that. But the UI is a person demon that I need to slay. It will help with the community, and day-to-day life of FA and make things easier long term. It's not the perfect fix FA needs, but it's one that will help and be a good start while we work on everything else.
> 
> The customer service and support end is one of the higher priorities. Users need faster responses to tickets, more consistency and a feeling that their issues are our priorities. So getting the new mod team up to par, fixing certain rules and the UI as well as paving way for things in the future is where I'm at right now.



You know people are going to hold you to that, so all I'll say is best luck to you. If things get overwhelming, you know what to do.


----------



## Dragoneer (Feb 25, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> You know people are going to hold you to that, so all I'll say is best luck to you. If things get overwhelming, you know what to do.


We've got 4 or 5 new mods in training, actively doing tickets under our new system. The mods have full documentation and guidelines across the board to help guide them into making the RIGHT paths. Behind the scenes, we've been spending a LOT of time focusing on the admin side. Chase, along with Asia, have put together a 30+ page training manual for new mods and are bringing them on under a much stricter regime than we ever had prior.


----------



## MaximizedNOVA (Feb 25, 2015)

For a second there, I thought Rowedahelicon would escalate this discussion out of control. 

*grabs popcorn*


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 25, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> We've got 4 or 5 new mods in training, actively doing tickets under our new system. The mods have full documentation and guidelines across the board to help guide them into making the RIGHT paths. Behind the scenes, we've been spending a LOT of time focusing on the admin side. Chase, along with Asia, have put together a 30+ page training manual for new mods and are bringing them on under a much stricter regime than we ever had prior.



Do you plan on letting everyone know who they are? If not now then when the training is done? I noticed that one of the admins recently posted a journal stating he was going to go under an anonymous account from now forward, as well as a few names on http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/ this staff page no longer have admin control.

Given how this mess, at least as far as when I started raising concerns, began with a broken promise of "transparency" I fear this might not be the best direction. One of the things you need to consider, is how trustworthy your word is to people. Making and breaking promises is one thing, real life does interfere with progress I'm aware. But something like this directly goes against a promise for open communication. 

And the strict teaching for admins, is that to combat the problem of poor communication amongst the admin team together? I've learned this is a big problem from a few of the former admins I've spoken to.


----------



## LizardKing (Feb 26, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> 30+ page training manual for new mods



Unless that's 95% examples of literally everything ever, I can't even begin to fathom why it would be so long.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Feb 26, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> Unless that's 95% examples of literally everything ever, I can't even begin to fathom why it would be so long.



30 pages isn't that bad, I'd get all that reading done in a day.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 26, 2015)

LizardKing said:


> Unless that's 95% examples of literally everything ever, I can't even begin to fathom why it would be so long.



Exactly, it doesn't seem like a huge task, follow the rules, if a picture breaks the rules remove, if you don't know ask around etc. Don't be rude to people when responding, etc.


----------



## Kalmor (Feb 26, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Exactly, it doesn't seem like a huge task, follow the rules, if a picture breaks the rules remove, if you don't know ask around etc. Don't be rude to people when responding, etc.


I'm not mainsite staff but I think both of us know things can be much, much more complicated than that. There are a good number of situations where things aren't clear cut and cases can be made for say, keeping a submission and/or taking it down.

You also have situations like the harrassment ticket staff have to deal with, which is another ball game completely.

Give staff the right tools and assistance and they will be able to do their job better and make good judgement calls faster. Checking a handbook document is much faster than asking your superior who may not even be online at that moment.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 26, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> I'm not mainsite staff but I think both of us know things can be much, much more complicated than that. There are a good number of situations where things aren't clear cut and cases can be made for say, keeping a submission and/or taking it down.
> 
> You also have situations like the harrassment ticket staff have to deal with, which is another ball game completely.
> 
> Give staff the right tools and assistance and they will be able to do their job better and make good judgement calls faster. Checking a handbook document is much faster than asking your superior who may not even be online at that moment.



Hopefully this is released for the public to view, I'm curious and I see no reason why it couldn't be.


----------



## Kalmor (Feb 26, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Hopefully this is released for the public to view, I'm curious and I see no reason why it couldn't be.


I am doubtful it will be actually. I don't know of any company that makes their staff training resources available for public view. I don't see why FA should be any different.

But of course this isn't up to me.


----------



## StormyChang (Feb 26, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> I'm not mainsite staff but I think both of us know things can be much, much more complicated than that. There are a good number of situations where things aren't clear cut and cases can be made for say, keeping a submission and/or taking it down.
> 
> You also have situations like the harrassment ticket staff have to deal with, which is another ball game completely.
> 
> Give staff the right tools and assistance and they will be able to do their job better and make good judgement calls faster. Checking a handbook document is much faster than asking your superior who may not even be online at that moment.



Well... cases can be made.  But a lot of rules are very black and white.  No cub/underage, no tracing/stealing, no harassing, no call outs, no spamming, ect.  Those are totally black and white. and even if a person gives a reason, well, it doesn't really matter.  There are no valid reasons ever for cub, tracing/stealing, or spamming. The only ones that might even potentially have a grey area are harassing or call outs, in which case both sides would need proof of things that are happening.  Though for the love of god, I don't know why people are being told that screenshots are invalid..

Also, I'm wondering who these magical new mods are.. if they're just more friends of neer's or actually people that know what they're doing.


----------



## quoting_mungo (Feb 26, 2015)

StormyChang said:


> Well... cases can be made.  But a lot of rules are very black and white.  No cub/underage, no tracing/stealing, no harassing, no call outs, no spamming, ect.  Those are totally black and white.


And a lot of violations are clear violations that don't really require referring back to the documentation. But then you run into the dicey, judgment call stuff. Is this character underage or not? Were portions of this image traced, or did the two artists just happen to use the same stock photo for reference? Is this a call-out or an objective account of a business experience? So on, so forth. Even with rules that on the surface seem very clear-cut, there will be someone out there that's managed to produce something borderline. 

The aim with having documentation like this is to ensure fair, equal enforcement of rules across the board. 

Screenshots have never been acceptable as evidence, because we have no way of verifying that they've not been tampered with. We know this sucks, but it's one of those "because of a few unscrupulous gits" things.



StormyChang said:


> Also, I'm wondering who these magical new mods are.. if they're just more friends of neer's or actually people that know what they're doing.


They're promising candidates. I (or Kalmor) can't really say more than that, but give them a chance, please.

Honestly most staff was NOT recruited from Neer's circle of friends, and even if they had been it's doing them and all other staff a huge disservice to speak as though being a friend of Neer's and having the ability to do the job were somehow mutually exclusive. I have total respect and faith for my mainsite colleauges (as well as the forum staff), and it gets pretty old to keep hearing we all supposedly ended up where we are because of despotism. 

I'm not saying all staffing choices historically have been great, but that's not something we can change now.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Feb 26, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> What all is wrong in what he said though?



Nothing, absolutely nothing. Acc has consistently proven to be a voice of reason for as long as I'm here. 

Trouble is, it changes nothing. Critics can bring up the most well-researched, persuasive arguments, ultimately they will be systematically silenced anyway. I've seen it many times before. I'm just genuinely surprised he's not perma'd. Probably a token attempt to appear transparent, meh.



Kalmor said:


> I'm not mainsite staff but I think both of us know  things can be much, much more complicated than that. There are a good  number of situations where things aren't clear cut and cases can be made  for say, keeping a submission and/or taking it down.
> 
> You also have situations like the harrassment ticket staff have to deal with, which is another ball game completely.
> 
> Give staff the right tools and assistance and they will be able to do  their job better and make good judgement calls faster. Checking a  handbook document is much faster than asking your superior who may not  even be online at that moment.


Good points, Raptros. But do you know what would be less of a hassle and therefore more effective?

If the rules were written in a clear-cut way in the first place, and not so vaguely as to be potentially interpretable in multiple ways depending on the whims of the mod who happens to handle the case.

Do you really think a 30+ pages monstrosity will create clarification and not confusion, provided the staff can be bothered to read it through to begin with?



PheagleAdler said:


> 30 pages isn't that bad, I'd get all that reading done in a day.


Arguing against staff? One more datapoint for my theory you're actively vying for an administrative position, that's what all the vocal whiteknighting aims towards.


----------



## Kalmor (Feb 26, 2015)

quoting_mungo said:


> And a lot of violations are clear violations that don't really require referring back to the documentation. But then you run into the dicey, judgment call stuff. Is this character underage or not? Were portions of this image traced, or did the two artists just happen to use the same stock photo for reference? Is this a call-out or an objective account of a business experience? So on, so forth. Even with rules that on the surface seem very clear-cut, there will be someone out there that's managed to produce something borderline.
> 
> The aim with having documentation like this is to ensure fair, equal enforcement of rules across the board.
> 
> ...


Pretty much this. Thanks q_m.

The new people are pretty awesome from what I've seen. Totally capable and able to deal with what FA throws at them.



Gryphoneer said:


> If the rules were written in a clear-cut way in the first place, and not so vaguely as to be potentially interpretable in multiple ways depending on the whims of the mod who happens to handle the case


If you want the rules to read like a 200 page EULA going into extreme detail about every little thing, like your software, I guess so. But for the sake of our users we don't do that.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Feb 26, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> If you want the rules to read like a 200 page EULA going into extreme detail about every little thing, like your software, I guess so. But for the sake of our users we don't do that.



Well, well. Other sites don't have 200 page rule tomes, but still have less complaints about the administration than FA. Funny that, innit?


----------



## PheagleAdler (Feb 26, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Arguing against staff? One more datapoint for my theory you're actively vying for an administrative position, that's what all the vocal whiteknighting aims towards.



Exactly how was I arguing with anyone by saying 30 pages wasn't a lot? You really need to get your head out of your ass, man.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 26, 2015)

Gryphoneer said:


> Nothing, absolutely nothing. Acc has consistently proven to be a voice of reason for as long as I'm here.
> 
> Trouble is, it changes nothing. Critics can bring up the most well-researched, persuasive arguments, ultimately they will be systematically silenced anyway. I've seen it many times before. I'm just genuinely surprised he's not perma'd. Probably a token attempt to appear transparent, meh.



Consider the following though, perhaps if people let people like him speak, and not try and dash it all down, it'll have more of an effect. There is too much bickering going back and forth from every side, if you want progress to be made the hall must be clear.


----------



## CoonArt (Feb 26, 2015)

In other words: still slow and old... Time for an overhaul!


----------



## TheArchiver (Feb 26, 2015)

Dragoneer said:


> We've got 4 or 5 new mods in training


 That sounds great! But I'm going to raise the question. Are any of these new mods "being trained" one or more of the following: Unqualified friends of yours? Shady like Zido? "Popufurs" like Zaush? Or actual trustworthy individuals with the aptitude to handle typical moderation duties?

New mods mean nothing if they're anything like the last few hires.



Dragoneer said:


> *Chase*, along with Asia, have put together a 30+ page training manual for new mods and are bringing them on under a much stricter regime than we ever had prior.



Oh dear...


----------



## MaximizedNOVA (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm out of popcorn, but this thread was just getting heated. 

*grabs nachos instead*


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 26, 2015)

MaximizedGamer said:


> I'm out of popcorn, but this thread was just getting heated.
> 
> *grabs nachos instead*



Share plz, I'm just going to wait patiently until Neer gets back, I would like to try and have my questions answered.


----------



## Kalmor (Feb 26, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> That sounds great! But I'm going to raise the question. Are any of these new mods "being trained" one or more of the following: Unqualified friends of yours? Shady like Zido? "Popufurs" like Zaush? Or actual trustworthy individuals with the aptitude to handle typical moderation duties?


The latter. That's all I have to say about that really. XD

Also, stop being provocative just for the sake of being provocative. You and I both know the intention behing you replying in the way you did.


----------



## Croconaw (Feb 26, 2015)

THEY UPDATED THE BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Better late than never with a Christmas banner.


----------



## StormyChang (Feb 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> THEY UPDATED THE BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Better late than never with a Christmas banner.



ikr?  happy christmas in ...almost march?
Also, noticed the banner changed after fa went down for a while.. did they take it down just to change a banner, or what even was that? o.0

Also wik, kalmor and q_m ...nothin' against y'all... but I'm not buying a word of it until I see how honest, hardworking, or fair these new kiddies are.  I've been a mod on multiple forums/sites before, and with how I've been treated on trouble tickets and seen others dealt with.. c'mon.
Also also wik.. if trouble tickets are so backed up (years from some stories I've heard), 3 or 4 newbies aren't really gonna cut down the list unless they're people that can be on their computers 'working' for more than just a couple hours each night.


----------



## Gryphoneer (Feb 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> THEY UPDATED THE BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



See, Piche really did keep his promise! 

See you for the next site update in 10 years from now.


----------



## PheagleAdler (Feb 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> THEY UPDATED THE BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Better late than never with a Christmas banner.



Don't see any references to Christmas, but it is still winter.


----------



## Croconaw (Feb 26, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Don't see any references to Christmas, but it is still winter.



I'm sure Neer appreciates you going out of your way to defend every comment that seems like slander. *pat pat pat*


----------



## PheagleAdler (Feb 26, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> I'm sure Neer appreciates you going out of your way to defend every comment that seems like slander. *pat pat pat*



That's how you wanna look at it? You're an idiot. I was explaining that the banner still made sense because we're still in winter. A lot of people associate snow-related themes with Christmas but it's really not Christmas without strictly holiday-related symbols.


----------



## Accountability (Feb 27, 2015)

BRN said:


> The greatest of baits, m8.
> 
> Accountability's always had a lot of interesting points to raise and the guy manages to lift some serious questions up out of the darkness. But the time has long since moved on for me to take his acerbic tone seriously, artist or not.
> 
> ...



The answer to your question is simple: I don't consider the other sites "competitors". Weasyl was a promising competitor while in development up until it launched as a "me too" clone of FA. Contrary to what Weasyl believed, you're not going to win over FA's userbase with art folders alone. Inkbunny and SoFurry's brands are both too tainted to gain widespread acceptance. I'd build my own site but my software development skills are novice at best. I've considered trying to start my own project, but I've yet to find people willing to help.



Dragoneer said:


> Someone else is handling that, actually.
> 
> And no, a UI isn't going to make up for it. I know that. But the UI is a person demon that I need to slay. It will help with the community, and day-to-day life of FA and make things easier long term. It's not the perfect fix FA needs, but it's one that will help and be a good start while we work on everything else.
> 
> The customer service and support end is one of the higher priorities. Users need faster responses to tickets, more consistency and a feeling that their issues are our priorities. So getting the new mod team up to par, fixing certain rules and the UI as well as paving way for things in the future is where I'm at right now.



If this "someone" is Chase, I have some sever doubts anything will ever change for the better. I think we've gone over the whole "putting your *BESTEST FRIENDS* in charge of things" topic enough times.

And I'm sorry, but "new mod team with fixed rules and an upgraded UI" has been your plan to fix the site for the last several years. *We've been here before*. A new mod team comes in, the rules change, minor new features roll out, and the same shit that has been happening for years happens again. Staff slowly fall off and don't get replaced and tickets pile up again.

Meanwhile, the site just came back up because amazingly you found a way to run out of memory on a machine that has 128GB of (donated) RAM.


----------



## Rowedahelicon (Feb 27, 2015)

Accountability said:


> The answer to your question is simple: I don't consider the other sites "competitors". Weasyl was a promising competitor while in development up until it launched as a "me too" clone of FA. Contrary to what Weasyl believed, you're not going to win over FA's userbase with art folders alone. Inkbunny and SoFurry's brands are both too tainted to gain widespread acceptance. I'd build my own site but my software development skills are novice at best. I've considered trying to start my own project, but I've yet to find people willing to help.



This is true, Weasyl has a number of problems on its own that it isn't addressing too well. And their dev team has their own problems with communications.



Accountability said:


> If this "someone" is Chase, I have some sever doubts anything will ever change for the better. I think we've gone over the whole "putting your *BESTEST FRIENDS* in charge of things" topic enough times.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but "new mod team with fixed rules and an upgraded UI" has been your plan to fix the site for the last several years. *We've been here before*. A new mod team comes in, the rules change, minor new features roll out, and the same shit that has been happening for years happens again. Staff slowly fall off and don't get replaced and tickets pile up again.
> 
> Meanwhile, the site just came back up because amazingly you found a way to run out of memory on a machine that has 128GB of (donated) RAM.



http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity

Refer to http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity#Staffing_issues and http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/History_of_Fur_Affinity#Former_Furocity_staff_departure_.282011.29 for more information.


----------



## TheArchiver (Feb 27, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> The latter. That's all I have to say about that really. XD
> 
> Also, stop being provocative just for the sake of being provocative. You and I both know the intention behing you replying in the way you did.



Oh I apologize, does that hurt your sensibilities?
I will continue to prod until we get direct answers about FA's most important elements. I'll at least not be fake about it and be as "direct" as possible. It seems to get Piche to open up.

A near half dozen major mod additions were PR disasters and one put site security in serious danger. You'll pardon the fuck out of any of us for being skeptical of a new moderation team. Deal with it.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 27, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Oh I apologize, does that hurt your sensibilities?
> I will continue to prod until we get direct answers about FA's most important elements. I'll at least not be fake about it and be as "direct" as possible. It seems to get Piche to open up.
> 
> A near half dozen major mod additions were PR disasters and one put site security in serious danger. You'll pardon the fuck out of any of us for being skeptical of a new moderation team. Deal with it.



As brash as he is, I can't help but agree. At least in the aspect of the only way to get any direct answers about anything are to be up front and forward with Neer. If you'll see a few pages back, he comes to talk to me directly on page 4 and 5, ignoring the rest of what happened in the thread prior.

I asked him for some communication, and I'm still blocked on everything. So being nice and polite, doesn't necessarily work with Neer. I'm still waiting on some answers for things that have happened months ago.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 27, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> As brash as he is, I can't help but agree. At least in the aspect of the only way to get any direct answers about anything are to be up front and forward with Neer. If you'll see a few pages back, he comes to talk to me directly on page 4 and 5, ignoring the rest of what happened in the thread prior.
> 
> I asked him for some communication, and I'm still blocked on everything. So being nice and polite, doesn't necessarily work with Neer. I'm still waiting on some answers for things that have happened months ago.



Nice and polite, my ass. You can be critical all you want, but from what I'm reading, you'd rather believe anything that's critical against the site, no matter if it's true or not.



Dragoneer said:


> No. I blocked you from viewing my Twitter and removed you from my contacts when you started quoting Hasky, who was outright lying, and when I pointed it out you basically said "So?" and kept posting it to Reddit.
> 
> I have no problems taking the hits I deserve from my failures. I have ever problem with somebody who's going to quote a liar and give our DDOSing friend a little pedestal to stand on and make him a hero. That's not civility.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 28, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Nice and polite, my ass. You can be critical all you want, but from what I'm reading, you'd rather believe anything that's critical against the site, no matter if it's true or not.



If you'd look on the next page, you can see I replied to him, and he apologized to me. He knows what I am up to, and he is getting his own facts wrong. From what I've read from your comments, you're quick to defend him which is why others here are accusing you of being a suck up.

I have facts to back up any claim I make, if you want them I can provide them.


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## PheagleAdler (Feb 28, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> If you'd look on the next page, you can see I replied to him, and he apologized to me. He knows what I am up to, and he is getting his own facts wrong. From what I've read from your comments, you're quick to defend him which is why others here are accusing you of being a suck up.
> 
> I have facts to back up any claim I make, if you want them I can provide them.



Sorry, earlier you said you were "still blocked" after being "nice and polite" If 'Neer himself apologized there's nothing more to say.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 28, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Sorry, earlier you said you were "still blocked" after being "nice and polite" If 'Neer himself apologized there's nothing more to say.



I'm still blocked because even though I got my apology, he still didn't feel it was worth trying to fix the bridge of communication or was just being lazy as usual. I'm still not able to talk to him via Skype, Twitter or FA. You may not think people like me are trying to do anything constructive, but given how hard it is to get ahold of him for nearly anything, you should be able to see why it's so easy for people to get furious and start coming on here to say what they want to say.


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## Socks the Fox (Feb 28, 2015)

So wait why did one single person have the only deployable version of the site update? Does FA not have any proper source control management system set up?


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## RTDragon (Feb 28, 2015)

Socks the Fox said:


> So wait why did one single person have the only deployable version of the site update? Does FA not have any proper source control management system set up?



If i recall considering the updates...... No.


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## StormyChang (Feb 28, 2015)

Socks the Fox said:


> So wait why did one single person have the only deployable version of the site update? Does FA not have any proper source control management system set up?



because historically yak wont let anyone else touch the code for the site?  dunno if any of that is changing, but in the past he's hoarded everything but the hardware for the site like a dragon on treasure.


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## Rowedahelicon (Feb 28, 2015)

Socks the Fox said:


> So wait why did one single person have the only deployable version of the site update? Does FA not have any proper source control management system set up?



Precisely one of the problems, should anything happen to the site, we have to wait on Yak. 
I'm surprised no one has picked up on this by the by.

Neer says it's because of Yak's failed system that the UI hasn't been up yet, even though it was totally ready to go and stuff.
But, https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/1349191-2015-02-27-Database-maintenance Yak had no problem fixing that issue the other night. So what all is the problem here?

http://ui.preyfar.dev.furaffinity.net/ has been posted before, and has been there for a long time now. I think we've been lied to again unless Dragoneer would like to clarify. Would he also like to clarify why he has no access to his own system?


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## StormyChang (Mar 1, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Precisely one of the problems, should anything happen to the site, we have to wait on Yak.
> I'm surprised no one has picked up on this by the by.
> 
> Neer says it's because of Yak's failed system that the UI hasn't been up yet, even though it was totally ready to go and stuff.
> ...



So... It's either yak is totally incompetent and selfish, or when shit goes wrong, maybe yak isn't the best, but better than we give him credit for, and neer just wants someone to shove the blame on to?  Those kinda feel like the only two options, unless I missed something?


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 1, 2015)

StormyChang said:


> So... It's either yak is totally incompetent and selfish, or when shit goes wrong, maybe yak isn't the best, but better than we give him credit for, and neer just wants someone to shove the blame on to?  Those kinda feel like the only two options, unless I missed something?



I wouldn't say Yak is incompetent, but I will say based on observations I've made that I beleive he has more power over FA then Neer does.

Lest I be accused of witch-hunting or trolling, I can't go into details here.


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## Croconaw (Mar 1, 2015)

Sooooooo....... how about that UI update.........?



Looking a lot like FAF is about to lose a mod now.


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## StormyChang (Mar 1, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> I wouldn't say Yak is incompetent, but I will say based on observations I've made that I beleive he has more power over FA then Neer does.
> 
> Lest I be accused of witch-hunting or trolling, I can't go into details here.



it's ok (in my case at least) i've been around fa long enough that i know a fair bit about things ^^;;  it is hard to say in some regard about things that have happened or are currently happening.  but i do have some pretty good ideas as to what it all is.  
and croc, i think you're right..


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 1, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Sooooooo....... how about that UI update.........?
> 
> 
> 
> Looking a lot like FAF is about to lose a mod now.



What do you mean?


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 1, 2015)

Commie Bat said:


> Read what his sig says...Kalmor said that earlier in this thread, and is currently a mod.



Ahahaha, my bad.


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## Kalmor (Mar 1, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Sooooooo....... how about that UI update.........?
> 
> 
> 
> Looking a lot like FAF is about to lose a mod now.


Still coming, but getting a bit frustrated (staff and users, indeed), but still coming.

Not frustrated to the point of leaving, however.

Myself and other staff have just been throwing ideas around regarding at least showing something more than screenshots while stuff gets sorted.


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## Croconaw (Mar 1, 2015)

Don't worry. You will find it's more cozy to walk amongst the mortals of FAF.


Still, 7 days after a promised release on the 22nd grinded my gears. I sort of wish Neer would just say "We aint gonna update, but we will just focus on keeping the site up as is". Least then I wouldn't be getting my hopes up anymore.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 1, 2015)

Croconaw said:


> Don't worry. You will find it's more cozy to walk amongst the mortals of FAF.
> 
> 
> Still, 7 days after a promised release on the 22nd grinded my gears. I sort of wish Neer would just say "We aint gonna update, but we will just focus on keeping the site up as is". Least then I wouldn't be getting my hopes up anymore.



If he did that, it'd be an honest answer and I think it would ease up some of the tension around here. There is way too much back and forth of "Here guys I promise this new thing!" followed by nothing, followed by complaining, followed by "I have a real life guys, I'm working as hard as I can!" followed by nothing then later on "Here guys I promise this new thing!".

I think a lot of critics really just want some answers, and not just to troll and shit on Neer. I know I for example just want to know what is going on and push for change, but after a while of this repetition and the barrage of white knights going WOW IT'S A FREE SITE GUYZ, it just gets a little daunting.

Then you have this



			
				Kalmor said:
			
		

> Still coming, but getting a bit frustrated (staff and users, indeed), but still coming.
> 
> Not frustrated to the point of leaving, however.
> 
> Myself and other staff have just been throwing ideas around regarding at  least showing something more than screenshots while stuff gets sorted.



I've talked to a lot of the former admins, including one recently made former, I know how much stress they get. Just like how Zidonuke wound up being just as mad at Neer than anyone else for his lack of communication and explanations, I can sympothize with the admins in the idea that they've been tasked with trying to uphold an image. It isn't their fault things get so loopy around here, and it's not fair to them. 
I have no doubt in my mind that Kalmor really would leave under their own frustration, and that the staff are trying to put together some logical way to handle the bad press. Does it mean anything good will come out of it? I highly doubt it.


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 1, 2015)

This may sound awful. But I feel it has to be said...The staff does deserve a lot better from its leadership. I know a lot of them came into this wanting to help the furry community and make progress...but instead they end up looking like "Yes-men" and fools who keep telling us "Change is a comin'!" but it never does. 

I am friends with some staff members and to be honest, their current situation reminds me of when I worked for a company that made really bad business decisions. I really hated when customers would get mad at me for a decision the CEO made. 

That's not fair to them. They're giving you time out of their busy schedules to help you with your site. You shouldn't fail them constantly.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 1, 2015)

Butters Shikkon said:


> This may sound awful. But I feel it has to be said...The staff does deserve a lot better from its leadership. I know a lot of them came into this wanting to help the furry community and make progress...but instead they end up looking like "Yes-men" and fools who keep telling us "Change is a comin'!" but it never does.
> 
> I am friends with some staff members and to be honest, their current situation reminds me of when I worked for a company that made really bad business decisions. I really hated when customers would get mad at me for a decision the CEO made.
> 
> That's not fair to them. They're giving you time out of their busy schedules to help you with your site. You shouldn't fail them constantly.



Exactly as I just mentioned XD


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## Butters Shikkon (Mar 1, 2015)

Rowedahelicon said:


> Exactly as I just mentioned XD



>.< Well, I just wanted to say it in my own words. But I suppose so.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 2, 2015)

It is getting annoying...I mean at least let us test the new UI?


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 2, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> It is getting annoying...I mean at least let us test the new UI?



I went to go look up a link for you, about the first time the UI was made for a public beta, that was years ago. While I was finding it, I did find this and wanted to pull it up. The following was posted on 6-30-2011.



			
				Dragoneer said:
			
		

> Greetings all,
> 
> I figured I'd stop in to give you all an update on things: We're still  working on our Summer Update, but at this point we're behind schedule.  We know - not a huge surprise, right? That said, the Summer Update (yes,  that's what we're calling it now) is still being worked on, and we're  aiming to roll this out over the course of this Summer, starting with an  open beta.
> 
> ...



https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/102569-Summer-Update-UI-Status

I don't mean to bring up old shit, as I don't want to convey I'm being a snot, but things like this are solid reminders that we can't really believe it anymore. Given that we've gotten no reply since, about anything in here, it's starting to look like again he's just going to sit back and wait until we stop caring. He'll pop up again later with the big news for real guys!

Given the above, and now what I found with the entire online FA backup, I'm really starting to question what happens next. It's like a comedy show, I need some of that popcorn from a few pages ago.


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## yak (Mar 2, 2015)

UI updates are being delayed because while FA has some code support for running several template sets at once, that support has been found to be insufficient.

It's for that farfetched to assume not everybody would want to use the new UI right away. Frankly, it's not 100% finished yet. 
Hence my goal has been to deploy it as a separate template set one could opt-in from the control panel.

Anyone who does even a bit of web development can readily see why it's problematic to do so on current FA: styles, javascript code and static resources are spread out across multiple top level folders.
A new template set usually requires changes in all three of those categories, and it's much easier to implement and support them when they're grouped under the same top-level folder, with all the resources contained within.
There are also bits and pieces of deprecated legacy code still haunting some of the older templates that would need to be updated.
This is what is currently being worked on. As you might imagine that's quite a bit of work....
.. as a prerequisite to simply being able to deploy the current and the new UI side by side.

The amount of time to get this done has been mis-communicated between myself and Dragoneer. I'll be sure to be more thorough in my future overviews of the scope of difficult tasks. 

At any rate live FA will be updated tomorrow with the code changes regarding the redesigned notes page UI and the editable comments.

PS
If your post starts with "I don't mean to.... but" you've already lost.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 2, 2015)

yak said:


> UI updates are being delayed because while FA has some code support for running several template sets at once, that support has been found to be insufficient.
> 
> It's for that farfetched to assume not everybody would want to use the new UI right away. Frankly, it's not 100% finished yet.
> Hence my goal has been to deploy it as a separate template set one could opt-in from the control panel.
> ...



I wasn't aware this was a game? Seriously you guys need to work on your attitudes towards the public. We're looking at 10 years of problems and empty promises here, there really is no room to be snarky.

The UI was posted publicly once a few years ago and that was pretty buggy so I'm somehow surprised it's still been a problem for the following years after. Also as a web designer, I'm more poised to believe your side, but it's still something to question how Dragoneer gave two totally different stories on why this wasn't done yet and now getting a third one. Looking forward to tomorrow regardless!


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## Croconaw (Mar 2, 2015)

It's finally happening after nearly a decade! ITS HABBENING!

I hope this doesn't result in a 1 month downtime.




yak said:


> PS
> If your post starts with "I don't mean to.... but" you've already lost.





Salt_Shaker.jpeg


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## TheArchiver (Mar 2, 2015)

yak said:


> At any rate live FA will be updated tomorrow with the code changes regarding the redesigned notes page UI and the editable comments.



I certainly hope so. Someone has their mod privileges on the line. Would hate to see a resignation over another broken promise..



yak said:


> Frankly, it's not 100% finished yet.



Then again, how are you going to get it functional _and_ unveil it overnight? Unless it's 99.5 percent finished...


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## StormyChang (Mar 2, 2015)

yak said:


> PS
> If your post starts with "I don't mean to.... but" you've already lost.



see... I was listening to what you were saying and going 'ok... ok... some explanation, I don't like it, but I'll roll with it if it's all they got".  Then you just had to say that.  Man, that's the most snotty, childish... when did this become about 'winning' or 'losing'?  I thought this was a discussion about the site an' stuff.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 3, 2015)

TheArchiver said:


> Then again, how are you going to get it functional _and_ unveil it overnight? Unless it's 99.5 percent finished...


The new UI is not 100% finished. The note interface and editable comments, which is what Yak was talking about deploying today, are a different beastie.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 3, 2015)

Well, they did bring back the Commissions tab a while back, as well as revamp the header, allow different size thumbnails, and add a SFW option, so they don't exactly do _nothing _to improve the site. (I probably left something else out as well)

That having been said, this should be interesting.


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## StormyChang (Mar 3, 2015)

has anyone seen that change to the notes page?  it's jumbled and crowded as fuck. v.v  though i suppose i'm gonna get told to shut up cause it's SOME change.  not a useful one at all..


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 3, 2015)

Kinda reminds me of how DA has their notes set up, I guess. I don't really have a problem with it, that's just my opinion though. I do like the introduction of icons, makes it feel a little more personal.


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## Rowedahelicon (Mar 3, 2015)

PheagleAdler said:


> Well, they did bring back the Commissions tab a while back, as well as revamp the header, allow different size thumbnails, and add a SFW option, so they don't exactly do _nothing _to improve the site. (I probably left something else out as well)
> 
> That having been said, this should be interesting.



True! Some stuff does happen, however when compared to the list of things they have promised, these things seem paltry in comparison. I'm linking it only under the fact that it is all publicly available comments. http://imgur.com/a/85ShP Things that every other art site has as standard features, sort of like the Commissions tab, which spent years in limbo before getting fixed up. The UI change to the note page is hardly worth celebrating, nor is it anything too anything drastically changed in the code base.

Though, I do praise the addition of something without any sort of hype for it. It is a good path to go down rather than spend years of making broken promises.


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## Kalmor (Mar 3, 2015)

New notes system and editable comments were added earlier today to give y'all something while we work on making the new UI play ball with the old (and vice versa). We're looking to keep the old UI as a toggleable option but having two unique templates for the same page is harder than anticipated, apparently.

I suspect~ a journal will be going up detailing these changes.

Constructive feedback is always welcome.


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## Croconaw (Mar 3, 2015)

Im a lil sad nothing wasnt implemented for mobile view for notes. Editable comments are lovely and I can stop feeling bad for accidentially typing "cock" instead of croc on some posts (example: It could use more cock" instead of "It could use more croc", ect)

I will bite into this more when I get home.



Feedback: Having an "Edit History" option would be handy, which display earlier revisions of comments.


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## Hendikins (Mar 3, 2015)

Kalmor said:


> We currently have an average (html) response rate of 357 milliseconds. To put that in perspective, here are some test results comparing FA to various big name sites, with a few other art/furry sites thrown in:
> 
> FA - http://gtmetrix.com/reports/www.furaffinity.net/j0M57Ddg
> [...]
> ...



Interesting tool, although I have no idea how a page load speed of 14.58 seconds rates 88%/B. Does it rank entirely based on theory? As a matter of interest, I ran it against the main sites the furry community uses, along with DeviantArt and pixiv, results sorted by page speed grade:

Weasyl - 90% Page Speed Grade, 93% YSlow grade, 1.46 seconds load time.
Fur Affinity - 88% Page Speed Grade, 87% YSlow grade, 14.58 seconds load time.
InkBunny - 88% Page Speed Grade, 84% YSlow grade, 4.38 seconds load time.
pixiv - 79% Page Speed Grade, 72% YSlow grade, 6.76 seconds load time.
SoFurry - 63% Page Speed Grade, 84% YSlow grade, 14.67 seconds load time.
DeviantArt - 47% Page Speed Grade, 72% YSlow grade, 8.16 seconds load time.

I will admit that as a staffer on Weasyl and lurker on 4 of the other listed sites the results of performance testing can make for interesting reading. I'd be curious to see what other tools people have used for this as well.


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## yak (Mar 4, 2015)

Fur Affinity - 94% Page Speed Grade, 87% YSlow Grade, 1.44s Page load time.
Repeat the tests to get different results each time 

Nothing changed on FA's end, just that the report was generated not at the peak site usage time where there were 16k+ users online the day a site update was rolled out.
Just goes to show that one should take the metrics/grades provided by most of these sites with a pound of salt.


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## PheagleAdler (Mar 4, 2015)

Hendikins said:


> DeviantArt - 47% Page Speed Grade, 72% YSlow grade, 8.16 seconds load time.



lol


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