# The fiscal cliff, recession 2.0 Welp we're fucked.



## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

With less than 24 hours left on the budget talks I highly doubt that the budget talks are going to go anywhere and that if some sort of deal come about it won't be anywhere near enough.

At least congress didn't spend their time trying to remove the automatic budget cuts like they were threatening to do.


So what are your thoughts on this FaF?  Do you think they will get a compromise done in time?  Will there be a half complete version they'll try and pass through?  Will they extend tax cuts for the wealthy?  Will the tax cuts expire for everyone?  What sort of political fallout are we looking at?

Personally what I think is going to happen is a half-assed compromise that won't do enough.  I think they'll just extend the bush era tax cuts even to the wealthy again and boehner will lose his position as speaker.  Also we're looking at another short term recession.


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## Ley (Dec 31, 2012)

oh good lord I knew a thread like this would pop up


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## Inciatus (Dec 31, 2012)

I think both sides will continue to blame each other and not actually get anything done. We will go over the fiscal cliff. Before anything bad actually happens they'll pass a compromise and the Republicans will play it off as helping make tax cuts. Most like the compromise won't be much of a change, it will be one of those, we'll save 3 trillion dollars in the next 30 years type thing and we'll keeping pushing the problem off until our financial system completely collapses. I don't think boehner will lose his position even if he is a crybaby. 

I think both the Democrats and the Republicans are doing a terrible job.

CannonFodder, you need another category. I blame both parties.Disregard, I can select multiple.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Inciatus said:


> I think both sides will continue to blame each other and not actually get anything done. We will go over the fiscal cliff. Before anything bad actually happens they'll pass a compromise and the Republicans will play it off as helping make tax cuts. Most like the compromise won't be much of a change, it will be one of those, we'll save 3 trillion dollars in the next 30 years type thing and we'll keeping pushing the problem off until our financial system completely collapses. I don't think boehner will lose his position even if he is a crybaby.
> 
> I think both the Democrats and the Republicans are doing a terrible job.
> 
> CannonFodder, you need another category. I blame both parties.Disregard, I can select multiple.


The reason why I think boehner is going to lose his position as speaker is that we don't have to wait another two years for people to re-elect him.  His party chose him and as a kneejerk reaction to the political fallout will probably remove him to save face.


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## Aetius (Dec 31, 2012)

Here is a cool looking chart for anyone wanting to see what the hell would happen if the Fiscal Slope would be allowed to continue non-stop. 

I'm sure the parties will get together at the last minute like a highschool class project and do something at least. Much like the past "Debt ceiling crisis".


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## Azure (Dec 31, 2012)

Sounds like fun! Lets take that 487 billion out of the military budget, that'll take the wind out the overpaid bastards.


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## Mayfurr (Dec 31, 2012)

Aetius said:


> I'm sure the parties will get together at the last minute like a highschool class project and do something at least. Much like the past "Debt ceiling crisis".



However, the "parties getting together at the last minute" didn't stop the US credit rating getting downgraded for the first time in recent history last time, and I expect the same thing will happen again.

Anyone want to guess when the euro or the yuan will replace the greenback as the preferred international trading currency?


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Anyone want to guess when the euro*. . .* will replace the greenback as the preferred international trading currency?


Ha, nice joke.


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## Aetius (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> However, the "parties getting together at the last minute" didn't stop the US credit rating getting downgraded for the first time in recent history last time, and I expect the same thing will happen again.



Except it wont, even from S&P. 

Edit: I would also like to point out that the many threats from credit rating industries that are pointed out by this article would only take place if the US did nothing and let everything slide. As well as if the US government preferred to not do anything in the future.
A credit raise during current negotiations would have a very unlikely chance. 



Mayfurr said:


> Anyone want to guess when the euro or the yuan will replace the greenback as the preferred international trading currency?



Seeing how the euro is being an increasingly bloodied currency with the Eurozone crisis, and the yuan not having as much as a clout compared to the dollar and Euro, I heavily doubt it.


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## Kazooie (Dec 31, 2012)

As a determinist, I believe the fiscal cliff is a cosmic inevitability, and thus blame or fault is a meaningless concept.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

I put Obama, because he had the most leverage and threatened to veto Plan B.

Otherwise, I would have to put *everyone* and that's no fun.

I doubt they are going to come up with anything new; they are arguing over trivial bullshit and nothing gets done.

Who the fuck cares, anyway? Maybe the stock market will go down a bit. I wouldn't mind buying some stocks, anyway.


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## Gryphoneer (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Anyone want to guess when the euro or the yuan will replace the greenback as the preferred international trading currency?


As Greece and Spain prove, the US' economic hitmen won't permit that to happen, and China's bubble(s) will burst before that could possibly happen.


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## Fernin (Dec 31, 2012)

Gryphoneer said:


> As Greece and Spain prove, the US' economic hitmen won't permit that to happen, and China's bubble(s) will burst before that could possibly happen.



Because their economic problems could in no way be thier fault right? I mean it's not like they don't have politicians/business men so corrupt it makes their US counterparts look like saints. XD


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## Dreaming (Dec 31, 2012)

If I had a Nickel for the amount of times I've heard ''yet another recession'' used...


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## BrodyCoyote (Dec 31, 2012)

Dreaming said:


> If I had a Nickel for the amount of times I've heard ''yet another recession'' used...



With that amount of money, you could prevent a recession!


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Anyone the yuan will replace the greenback as the preferred international trading currency?



Oh god no. I'd prefer the Euro before RMB any day.


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## Aleu (Dec 31, 2012)

I think this is all overblown


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## Sarcastic Coffeecup (Dec 31, 2012)

My opinion in a video


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## dinosaurdammit (Dec 31, 2012)

hey atleast the military already got paid so we dont have to panic over some fatcats struggling to get the damn thing done


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## Bliss (Dec 31, 2012)

Either way Uncle Sam's gonna borrow my money. :U


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## Icen (Dec 31, 2012)

I selected everything despite being raised in a house to believe that everything is the fault of the right-wing.


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## DevistatedDrone (Dec 31, 2012)

I selected everything.
I don't care who fucked up. What pisses me off is that it's been such a large and foreboding problem that wasn't fixed by our "United" States any sooner.

I may not know exactly how the economy works. I keep hearing the debt bubble is going to pop and we got to lower it and also hear that we need to stimulate the economy by digging ourselves into even more debt and also hear that budget cuts and tax increases and government implemented jobs would fix everything and that we shouldn't have to stimulate the economy to burrow ourselves into more debt and that government implemented jobs don't work and that tax reductions will somehow save everyone.
People have too many bullshit theories and conflicting solutions. One of them is right, but I can't be arsed to figure out which one is. Let them figure it out.
All I know is that when the economy officially shatters into irreparable fragments, I'm going old-school indigenous. Shit'll be cash.


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## Cain (Dec 31, 2012)

Pardon my lack of knowledge about economics and such, but what the hell is 'the fiscal cliff'?


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Cain said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge about economics and such, but what the hell is 'the fiscal cliff'?


Short version is the usa congress can't agree on a budget.  Republicans want to cut health and human services.  Democrats want the bush era tax cuts for the wealthy expire.  They couldn't get it through to pass no matter what, so they passed a short term budget and elected a budget council.

Well fast forward to today.  The budget council still can't agree on a budget.  We have less than half a day to get the budget to pass otherwise every department gets a massive budget cut, military, health and human services, education, unemployment, etc.  The short term is that a ton of people are probably going to get fired.  The long term is everyone's taxes are going to go up and people that do get tax returns will be getting them later on.  Not only is this bad news for those who's pay checks come from the government, but it's bad news all around and we're looking at another smaller recession.

Tl:dr; Welp we're fucked.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

Cain said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge about economics and such, but what the hell is 'the fiscal cliff'?



People are worried if we don't act soon, we might start saving money :V


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Ricky said:


> People are worried if we don't act soon, we might start *needing actual* money *to pay for things instead of putting on our tab*


Fix'd that for you.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> Fix'd that for you.



uuh, no.

You *do* know the austerity and tax hikes are to REDUCE the deficit, right?


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## Tigercougar (Dec 31, 2012)

Greece. 

Read upon what has happened to the Grecian economy over the last several years. Do not assume that the USA is special and that we are somehow immune from their fate. This manufactured "fiscal cliff" is the opening shot on an oligarchical assault against the working class. The austerity will grow in the coming years and more people will be thrown into destitution. Enough that the poor, the homeless, the downtrodden will no longer be able to be ignored by us, those that are more fortunate.

The 1930s will return to this country very soon. I don't mean world war stuff. I mean the return of the great class struggles of that time.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

Tigercougar said:


> Greece.



That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what's happening in the US with the "fiscal cliff." The problems in Greece started with heavy government spending. Don't you people read? =P

For those of you who are unaware, reducing the deficit is generally a *good thing* for your credit rating.

We are not going into another Great Depression. Money will move around like always, we might hit another bump in the road but the fucking world won't end, our economy won't collapse and everyone will be okay.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Ricky said:


> That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what's happening in the US with the "fiscal cliff." The problems in Greece started with heavy government spending. Don't you people read? =P
> 
> For those of you who are unaware, reducing the deficit is generally a *good thing* for your credit rating.
> 
> We are not going into another Great Depression. Money will move around like always, we might hit another bump in the road but the fucking world won't end, our economy won't collapse and everyone will be okay.


In the long run we'll be fine.  In the short run we'll have another recession.


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## Aetius (Dec 31, 2012)

Tigercougar said:


> This manufactured "fiscal cliff" is the opening shot on an oligarchical assault against the working class.



Uhh....What? How is this another case of the rich raiding the poor like ye olde barons of olde? The entire fiscal slope came to be from Congress being too partisan to agree to anything, as well as the joys of procrastination taking place.


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## Tigercougar (Dec 31, 2012)

Ricky said:


> We are not going into another Great Depression. Money will move around like always, we might hit another bump in the road but the fucking world won't end, our economy won't collapse and everyone will be okay.



Everyone will be okay? 

Everyone will be *okay?*

If everyone is okay, why are more children in this country falling into poverty? If everyone is okay, why are more people going hungry? Why is there more homelessness, and fewer resources to try and shelter these people? If everything is okay, why are more people in this country talking about the economy, and worrying about the health of it, than ever before?

With all due respect, you are not understanding. All of this talk of spending and deficits means absolutely NOTHING. It does not matter how specifically a country becomes indebted. What matters is whatâ€™s going to happen to that countryâ€™s population. And what inevitably happens to the people trapped in these countries is lack of access to healthcare and education and grinding poverty.

I do not care about the politics of what is happening, except in the sense that I know that the dealings of a tiny, obscenely wealthy portion of the worldâ€™s population is risking causing the rest of us to fall into squalor.

I AM NOT TALKING ECONOMIC COLLAPSE.

I AM NOT TALKING THEORETICALS.

Iâ€™m talking what I see happening to people, even personally, â€œon the ground,â€ in this country, right now.

Iâ€™m talking the human cost of this business. The only cost that truly matters.


In reply to Aetius...have you forgotten who received the trillions in bailouts in 2008?


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## Aetius (Dec 31, 2012)

Tigercougar said:


> In reply to Aetius...have you forgotten who received the trillions in bailouts in 2008?



*Billions : P 

Don't forget the fact that most of the bailouts have already been paid back with interest to the US government as of recent.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Hold up they may have finally reached a agreement.  There isn't much information yet, but under the new budget the tax rates for people making less than 400k a year and households making less than 450k a year would remain the same.  People and households that make more than that are looking at their tax rates going up to 40%.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

Tigercougar said:


> If everyone is okay, why are more children in this country falling into poverty? If everyone is okay, why are more people going hungry? Why is there more homelessness, and fewer resources to try and shelter these people? If everything is okay, why are more people in this country talking about the economy, and worrying about the health of it, than ever before?



I really hope you are joking and not this brainwashed and ignorant.

Right. THE CHILDREN! LET'S WORRY ABOUT THE CHILDREN

[yt]vNcgTMpcgn0[/yt]


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## thoron (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm not too worried about the fiscal cliff, it just means that the tax rates will return to how they were during the Clinton administration. The part thats really scaring most people about it though is that many of the tax breaks we've grown so used to will also go away. The tax breaks of the Bush era were only supposed to last for ten years and that time is over due and up.


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## Plantar (Dec 31, 2012)

I read a great post about this from one of my favorite talk show hosts, and I think it's a good read. Let me know if you can't read this and I'll post it in a quote box or something. :U

http://www.facebook.com/talkradiocasey/posts/4486434472807


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## Attaman (Dec 31, 2012)

To answer the OP, I generally blame "Republicans", but to be more specific I blame the extremists (Ex: Tea Party) who have convinced themselves that the proper way to behave in politics is "We're going to make a list of what we want and _you_ are going to make a list of your own concessions so ours can pass".

Boehner had a plan, a - if not perfect, at least - semi-reasonable one. He couldn't even herd the majority of his own party along to agree with it, because it was seen as too much a compromise / handing power over to Democrats. Boehner's been working on plans, so it's hard to keep him at fault.

Obama is not at fault either, mostly because he's running on exactly what he promised he'd run under. You do not elect someone under the belief they'll enact [x] policies / behave in [y] fashion, then get upset when they enact [x] policies / behave in [y] fashion (at least not unless you're setting someone up to fail). Furthermore, there's only so much he could do to avert the Fiscal Cliff, and for the most part the process hasn't advanced to the point where he could do something even if he wanted to.

Democrats I do not fault because they have been offering compromise after compromise over the last few years. Hell, the reason the Fiscal Cliff is a concern right now is because we're at one of the points they specifically compromised for and said "We'll agree to [a], so long as later you agree to rational talks about [c]."

Republicans are the last group amongst the poll selection, and - once more - I _still_ don't blame the party as a whole. But the nutters who believe that "Default the US Debt!" is not only an acceptable choice, but a wise / rational one? That they're still allowed to vote on stuff, and showing the same lack of rationality now? Won't even agree to Boehner's plan for the purpose of spiting Democrats? We've advanced to the point that it's not even "Spit in Democrats' face", it's "Look I know you won the election, but obviously we should have won and you'll do everything we say if you know what's good for ya."


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## Saga (Dec 31, 2012)

Azure said:


> Sounds like fun! Lets take that 487 billion out of the military budget, that'll take the wind out the overpaid bastards.


 Overpaid?
Im pretty sure that the pay is fair for people who risk thier lives everyday for you.


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## lupinealchemist (Dec 31, 2012)

I do not use credit to buy things, would this still affect me besides inflation?


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

lupinealchemist said:


> I do not use credit to buy things, would this still affect me besides inflation?



That's pretty much irrelevant. Even if there was a recession, the biggest thing people would worry about is getting laid off. People are always getting laid off but it happens more in a recession. Also, in a recession inflation slows down or sometimes you get _deflation_ like in the GD.

Ultimately, it's just money moving around. Things will balance themselves out eventually.


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## thoron (Dec 31, 2012)

Ultimately the ones I see really getting hit by this aren't those who know how to pinch a penny, but those who can't control their spending habits. 

Found this by the way, its rather fun since it allows you to see about how much you'd pay in taxes each year from 2000 to present.
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

Of course it doesn't include deductions and such, just the raw federal income tax.


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## Mayfurr (Dec 31, 2012)

cyanogen said:


> Overpaid?
> Im pretty sure that the pay is fair for people who risk thier lives everyday for you.



If there's any profession in the US today that "risks their lives everyday for you", it's the police who have to deal with the armed nutjobs roaming American streets - not soldiers patrolling streets in Kabul


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> If there's any profession in the US today that "risks their lives everyday for you", it's the police who have to deal with the armed nutjobs roaming American streets - not soldiers patrolling streets in Kabul



Yeah, 124 officers killed (47 of them by gunfire).

Holy shit :roll:


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## Mayfurr (Dec 31, 2012)

Ricky said:


> Yeah, 124 officers killed (47 of them by gunfire).
> 
> Holy shit :roll:



And that's just for 2012. 
More US police officers died by *gunfire in 2012* alone than *all *the NZ police deaths combined _since 1840._

Holy shit indeed.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> And that's just for 2012.



Compare that to the number of soldiers who died and your previous quote seems kinda silly =P


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## Mayfurr (Dec 31, 2012)

Ricky said:


> Compare that to the number of soldiers who died and your previous quote seems kinda silly =P



Perhaps you can explain how US soldiers being killed in *Afghanistan* are "risking their lives everyday for *you*", in the same way that US police are. How does patrolling the streets of Kabul (as opposed to say, New York) putting their lives on the line for *you*? 

Not to mention that drone operators flying a drone over Helmut province are not exactly "risking their lives" doing so while sitting in a container in California or Texas half a world away from their targets in air-conditioned comfort...


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Perhaps you can explain how US soldiers being killed in *Afghanistan* are "risking their lives everyday for *you*", in the same way that US police are. How does patrolling the streets of Kabul (as opposed to say, New York) putting their lives on the line for *you*?
> 
> Not to mention that drone operators flying a drone over Helmut province are not exactly "risking their lives" doing so while sitting in a container in California or Texas half a world away from their targets in air-conditioned comfort...


And not to mention US soldiers stationed in Germany...


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> Perhaps you can explain how US soldiers being killed in *Afghanistan* are "risking their lives everyday for *you*", in the same way that US police are. How does patrolling the streets of Kabul (as opposed to say, New York) putting their lives on the line for *you*?
> 
> Not to mention that drone operators flying a drone over Helmut province are not exactly "risking their lives" doing so while sitting in a container in California or Texas half a world away from their targets in air-conditioned comfort...



Meh. They have done just as much for me as every cop I've ever met, which is absolutely jack shit. Still, they died in the service of this country even if I don't agree with the motives of their superiors.

You seem to imply a pig's cop's life is worth more than a soldier's. I don't agree with that at all.


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## Aetius (Dec 31, 2012)

Looks like we are going into overtime baby.


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## Toshabi (Dec 31, 2012)

Imma have to blame Dragoneer.


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## kyfox (Dec 31, 2012)

The US is done screwed IMO. The Dems are trampling the Constitiution and spending and taxing like crazy. No tax will stop us from hitting the cliff. The Republicans have no balls to stand up to them.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

kyfox said:


> The US is done screwed IMO. The Dems are trampling the Constitiution and spending and taxing like crazy. No tax will stop us from hitting the cliff. The Republicans have no balls to stand up to them.


What planet have you been living on?


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## kyfox (Dec 31, 2012)

CannonFodder said:


> What planet have you been living on?


 Earth. The Dems are trying to raise taxes, that discourages people from making a large income, which discourages spending, which hurts the economy. The republicans won't do anything to stop it. The Constitution statement doesn't apply to the fiscal cliff talk as so much to democrats in general. Kinda unrelated.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

kyfox said:


> Earth. The Dems are trying to raise taxes, that discourages people from making a large income, which discourages spending, which hurts the economy. The republicans won't do anything to stop it. The Constitution statement doesn't apply to the fiscal cliff talk as so much to democrats in general. Kinda unrelated.


The democrats are trying to keep the tax cuts for the lower and middle class.  The republicans aren't willing to keep the tax cuts unless they are extended to the wealthy as well.


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## Ricky (Dec 31, 2012)

kyfox said:


> Earth. The Dems are trying to raise taxes, that discourages people from making a large income, which discourages spending, which hurts the economy.





kyfox said:


> The US is done screwed IMO.



Do you *really* think raising taxes is going to lead to some kind of disaster?

I'm all for lower taxes but compromise is good, so is _getting things done_ =P

I'm kind of sick of hearing demagogues talk about this crap like it's some kind of impending disaster.


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## Azure (Dec 31, 2012)

If only I could go back in time, obsess over Jodie Foster in that one movie, and be the guy who KILLS Ronald Reagan instead of the chump who fails too. Allahu Akbar! And George Bush the First as well. Maybe I can choke him with a pretzel.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Azure said:


> If only I could go back in time, obsess over Jodie Foster in that one movie, and be the guy who KILLS Ronald Reagan instead of the chump who fails too. Allahu Akbar! And George Bush the First as well. Maybe I can choke him with a pretzel.


With how much republicans worship Reagan killing him would make them believe he was the messiah.  Then we would have a new religion that worships "trickle down" economics, burn down poor people's foreclosed homes as incense and believe Reagan would come back to life to become ruler of the country again if the world's economy tanked to the point of no return.


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## thoron (Dec 31, 2012)

kyfox said:


> Earth. The Dems are trying to raise taxes, that discourages people from making a large income, which discourages spending, which hurts the economy. The republicans won't do anything to stop it. The Constitution statement doesn't apply to the fiscal cliff talk as so much to democrats in general. Kinda unrelated.



The rich had their chance for the past decade to prove trickle down economics and instead they out sourced so many jobs, spent so much money on foreign goods, and just put their money away in the banks cause what they have is never enough. A good chunk of the money we spend in the US ends up over seas simply because of the level of outsourcing in manufacturing. I'd say if the rich want a tax break it should be for hiring American workers, not some guy in China for a dollar and hour.


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## Attaman (Dec 31, 2012)

kyfox said:


> Earth. The Dems are trying to raise taxes, that discourages people from making a large income, which discourages spending, which hurts the economy.


 You, uh, do realize a non-partisan congressional study has proven that Trickledown Economics is bunk, yes?

You also realize that bitching about US taxes being too high right now is akin to complaining in the middle of a drought that it raining would only worsen the situation? The US' taxes are at a historically low rate, so low that even the majority of the top 1% looks favorably at increased taxes on their income bracket (mind, in this case it's "For gods sake you fucking nutters increase our taxes so we don't have to jump ship after you tank our nation's economy under crazyland philosophical madness").


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## Inciatus (Dec 31, 2012)

Mayfurr said:


> If there's any profession in the US today that "risks their lives everyday for you", it's the police who have to deal with the armed nutjobs roaming American streets - not soldiers patrolling streets in Kabul



In New Orleans the police are (or at least used to be) considered a public safety hazard.


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## Mayfurr (Dec 31, 2012)

Ricky said:


> Meh. They have done just as much for me as every cop I've ever met, which is absolutely jack shit. Still, they died in the service of this country even if I don't agree with the motives of their superiors.



And the dead police officers _didn't_ "die in the service of their country"? 



Ricky said:


> You seem to imply a pig's cop's life is worth more than a soldier's. I don't agree with that at all.



Why, because one group wears cool camo gear and plays with high-tech toys and only has to go into harms way once in a while when their superiors start the next damn war, as opposed to the other group being out on the streets day after day after frickin' DAY facing down criminals without the luxury of being able to just blow their opponents away with heavy weaponry?


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## kyfox (Dec 31, 2012)

X





Mayfurr said:


> And the dead police officers _didn't_ "die in the service of their country"?
> 
> 
> 
> Why, because one group wears cool camo gear and plays with high-tech toys and only has to go into harms way once in a while when their superiors start the next damn war, as opposed to the other group being out on the streets day after day after frickin' DAY facing down criminals without the luxury of being able to just blow their opponents away with heavy weaponry?


Both services have their own useful purpose. One isn't better than the other. Military protects us from foreign enemies, law enforcement keeps the peace in the country.


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## CannonFodder (Dec 31, 2012)

Some good news.  They've agreed to a temporary compromise.  Like I said earlier the tax rates for people making over 400k a year will go up to 40%, and a temporary stave off the budget cuts.  Well they're just going to have this happen all again in a couple months.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Dec 31, 2012)

kyfox said:


> Earth. The Dems are trying to raise taxes, that  discourages people from making a large income, which discourages  spending, which hurts the economy. The republicans won't do anything to  stop it. The Constitution statement doesn't apply to the fiscal cliff  talk as so much to democrats in general. Kinda unrelated.


So liberalize it all? (less taxes, less regulations)
Worked so well...


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## Cain (Jan 1, 2013)

So I'm guessing the US didn't die within the first day of the New Year?


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## CannonFodder (Jan 1, 2013)

Cain said:


> So I'm guessing the US didn't die within the first day of the New Year?


They passed a temporary messure last night.

Downside is we're going to have to go through this shit again in a couple months.


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## DJ-Fragon (Jan 1, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> They passed a temporary messure last night.
> 
> Downside is we're going to have to go through this shit again in a couple months.



So... panic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e7URiws31k


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## CannonFodder (Jan 1, 2013)

DJ-Fragon said:


> So... panic?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e7URiws31k


Considering they're going to have to increase the debt ceiling again really fast cause they went over it last night, and that they're going to have to talk about future spending cuts, and that they're going to have to talk about taxes again I'd say more of a-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI

The only good news is that the republicans have officially driven their popularity off the fiscal cliff.


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## CaptainCool (Jan 1, 2013)

In the end they will always find a last minute compromise. Because if they don't both sides will be in a worse position than they were before and who would want that?
It still irritates me that apparently none of them can figure out what is wrong with these two images:
http://www.accuracy.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/discretionary_spending_fy20111.png
http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/11/18/saupload_military_country_distribution_2008.png


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## Aetius (Jan 1, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> They passed a temporary messure last night.
> 
> Downside is we're going to have to go through this shit again in a couple months.



No they didn't, only the senate approved it, the house still has to approve it. 

The whole "We are going to hell on Jan 1st" was some fallacy supported by most of the media.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 1, 2013)

Aetius said:


> No they didn't, only the senate approved it, the house still has to approve it.
> 
> The whole "We are going to hell on Jan 1st" was some fallacy supported by most of the media.


Goddamnit.  Wouldn't be surprised if they try and vote against it.


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## Aetius (Jan 1, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Goddamnit.  Wouldn't be surprised if they try and vote against it.



Most of the Tea party members of the house are heavily under pressure from Senate Republicans to vote for this. Even if they don't vote for it, the Democrats and Boehner's part of the party would pass it.


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## Day Coydog (Jan 1, 2013)

Seriously, If it weren't for my family, Anthrocon, and my inability to remain unhurt in cold weather, I would be moving to Canada. Seriously, I am getting sick of all of this "pride" that people "have" for this country, if they had one ounce of objectivity they could see that the "U"SA sucks and that it is going down the shit hole fast because of all of the pieces of shit that run this country. How they dealt with the fiscal cliff and the debt ceiling show how they are as competent as 12 year old school children, but that's what you get in a bicameral legislature.


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## thoron (Jan 1, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Considering they're going to have to increase the debt ceiling again really fast cause they went over it last night



They didn't go through the debt ceiling, if they had all government spending would have been suspended. The fiscal cliff is where if they failed to come to an agreement on budget all tax rates and spending would reset to how they were in the year 2000 as opposed to shutting down.

Hopefully with some new blood coming into the house and senate they'll be able to figure something out.


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## nonconformist (Jan 1, 2013)

Well, something's gotta happen no matter what >.<


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## Lobar (Jan 1, 2013)

Ricky said:


> I put Obama, because he had the most leverage and threatened to veto Plan B.



I guess you missed the part where _Republicans_ refused to back Boehner's Plan B, despite the content of the bill being 95% handjobs for Repubs.  The problem lies nearly entirely in the fact that the right has been taken over by complete nutjobs that have no sense of how to govern and get necessary things done without getting literally everything they want for free.


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## Ricky (Jan 1, 2013)

Lobar said:


> I guess you missed the part where _Republicans_ refused to back Boehner's Plan B, despite the content of the bill being 95% handjobs for Repubs.  The problem lies nearly entirely in the fact that the right has been taken over by complete nutjobs that have no sense of how to govern and get necessary things done without getting literally everything they want for free.



No I didn't. I said I would have put *everybody* but that's no fun. Also, thanks to the REPUBLICAN PARTY the deal just passed.


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## Attaman (Jan 1, 2013)

Ricky said:


> No I didn't. I said I would have put *everybody* but that's no fun. Also, thanks to the REPUBLICAN PARTY the deal just passed.


I don't necessarily think the proper person to thank when a hostage-taker stands down is the hostage-taker.


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## Ricky (Jan 2, 2013)

Attaman said:


> I don't necessarily think the proper person to thank when a hostage-taker stands down is the hostage-taker.



You sound just like a Democrat, blaming everything on the other party. It takes two to Tango. The only reason I said Republicans in this case is they had to concede the most. I'm surprised it made it through the house.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 2, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You sound just like a Democrat, blaming everything on the other party.


So you then use "democrat" as a negative connotation?


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## Gryphoneer (Jan 2, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You sound just like a Democrat, blaming everything on the other party.


Because that's the only thing every single one of them does and because the others never do so, amirite?


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## Cain (Jan 2, 2013)

American politics would be interesting if one of the independent parties like the Green party or the Libertarian party got into power. It'd sure make things flavorful.


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## Namba (Jan 2, 2013)

The right _and_ left are equal fuck-ups. Neither the right nor left wing is competent. Both the right and left point fingers at each other. The country is fucked and neither side can present a good solution. Bottom line? Fuck politics. Fuck the self-righteous bullshit of the republican party and fuck the condescending know-it-all douchebags from the democratic party; neither side can fix anything because both sides have their heads so far up their asses and each other's asses that a solution is never going to present itself at the rate they're going.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 2, 2013)

Cain said:


> American politics would be interesting if one of the independent parties like the Green party or the Libertarian party got into power. It'd sure make things flavorful.


It's already far too flavorful if you ask me.
But it would be better if they solved debates by mortal kombat though.


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## PsychicOtter (Jan 2, 2013)

I think nearly everyone in congress is at fault.  Politicians on both sides are ridiculously stubborn.  Democrats (including myself) wanted a tax increase on people making over $250k, but you're not going to get exactly what you want, so you need to compromise a little.  Sure, they got a deal done, but it took the threat of this deadline at the final hour for them to finally realize that they need to work together.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 2, 2013)

PsychicOtter said:


> I think nearly everyone in congress is at fault.  Politicians on both sides are ridiculously stubborn.  Democrats (including myself) wanted a tax increase on people making over $250k, but you're not going to get exactly what you want, so you need to compromise a little.  Sure, they got a deal done, but it took the threat of this deadline at the final hour for them to finally realize that they need to work together.


It may be fucked up of me, but given the inevitable I can't wait until congress' approval rating eventually hits around 5% or lower.  Shit's going to be a popcorn flick and a half to watch when they realize just how little confidence people have in congress and then try to pander to the masses rapid fire to try and make themselves look better and then inevitably back fire when the gridlock causes none of the rapid fire pandering to pass through and then begin screaming at each other further lowering the populace's approval of them.

It's going to be like watching a jackass movie stunt of two people jousting in cars.


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## PsychicOtter (Jan 2, 2013)

As low as congress' approval rating is, I still don't quite understand how 10% of Americans think they're doing a good job.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 2, 2013)

PsychicOtter said:


> As low as congress' approval rating is, I still don't quite understand how 10% of Americans think they're doing a good job.


Something is going to throw down like donkey kong really soon.

The fact that Boehner couldn't get the majority of his party shows something is going to go down soon.  I don't know what is going to happen, but gut is telling me pretty soon politics in washington is going to blow up like a nuke.

Let's look at what is happening right now-
The deficit limit was only temporarily extended.
The compromise is a temporary solution.
They still have to come up with a solution to the deficit, either by budget cuts or higher taxes neither party can agree on.
Boehner couldn't get his party to go along with it.
The republicans who voted against the budget are more at risk in their own caucuses by other republicans than in their general elections.
The baby boomers are starting to age and in the long run will not be enough to win elections.
The current generation reaching voter age support more liberal agendas, such as pro-gay marriage and such.
The tea party hijacked the republican party.
Most americans dislike the tea party.
Most americans dislike congress.
In 2014 the most likely outcome is that the democrats will not gain enough seats to retake the house and we'll still have gridlock.
Most americans support higher taxes for the wealthy, whereas the republican platform is opposed to higher taxes and the main reason why it took so long for the budget to go through is that they couldn't agree on what income level to let the bush tax cuts expire.
Democrats have garnered enough of a wide voter base to overcome republican voter base.
In order for republican party to remain electable they would have to widen their voter base, which would alienate their current voter base.
If the republicans don't try and get a larger voter base then they will outright get curb stomped from hell in 2016.


Tl:dr; there's countless things about to blow up in politicians' faces really soon.  It's just a question of which time bomb are they going to try to defuse and which are they going to let blow up in their face.


Get your popcorn here, get your popcorn here.


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## Attaman (Jan 2, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You sound just like a Democrat, blaming everything on the other party. It takes two to Tango.


"If that bitch hadn't been in arm's reach, bitch wouldn'ta been a hostage. Fuckers gave me my goddamn retirement in Tahiti, wouldn't have had to hold her hostage."



Ricky said:


> The only reason I said Republicans in this case is they had to concede the most.


Funny thing about that: Generally when one party (Democrats) concedes on a lot of shit under the pretense that you'll (both parties) look back into it at a later date, you don't then make the first party concede _again_ because "Lol fair's fair". _Especially_ not when recently the public majority looks favorably at Party 1's actions, and non-favorably at Party 2's. 



Cain said:


> or the Libertarian party got into power. It'd sure make things flavorful.


Hahaha.

Oh, wait, you're serious. Oh god, no. Please, I don't want to have businesses putting machineguns on top our roofs to increase worker efficiency, or driving through unionized communities setting fire to homes.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jan 2, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> Something is going to throw down like donkey kong really soon.
> 
> The fact that Boehner couldn't get the majority of his party shows something is going to go down soon.  I don't know what is going to happen, but gut is telling me pretty soon politics in washington is going to blow up like a nuke.
> 
> ...



Democrat majority? Democrats being able to make laws and pass them WITHOUT having to beg Republicans not to auto-cockblock those laws? I can't wait to see the republicans reaction (The south will rise! Secession! [...] And not to forget the wingnut news articles)


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## Cain (Jan 2, 2013)

Attaman said:


> Hahaha.
> 
> Oh, wait, you're serious. Oh god, no. Please, I don't want to have businesses putting machineguns on top our roofs to increase worker efficiency, or driving through unionized communities setting fire to homes.


Well I don't know, maybe if the US gave up the damn two-party system a lot of things could have changed.


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## Ricky (Jan 2, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> Because that's the only thing every single one of them does and because the others never do so, amirite?



every single person, in both parties


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## CannonFodder (Jan 2, 2013)

Cain said:


> Well I don't know, maybe if the US gave up the damn two-party system a lot of things could have changed.


That's what I and a shit ton of people have been saying since forever.  However the whole reaction to the idea of getting rid of the electoral college is always and has forever been "ermagad then we'll have mob majority cause every 1 r t3h stoopidier th@n my intullgience".


Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Democrat majority? Democrats being able to make laws and pass them WITHOUT having to beg Republicans not to auto-cockblock those laws? I can't wait to see the republicans reaction (The south will rise! Secession! [...] And not to forget the wingnut news articles)


Why do you think I want to see this shit go down so badly?  The sooner this shit blows up the sooner congress can get back to work.  There's a massive division right now between boehner and a large portion of republicans in office who live in deep red areas and chances are there's going to be a throw down pretty soon within the republican party.


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## Lobar (Jan 2, 2013)

Eyal Flurry said:


> The right _and_ left are equal fuck-ups. Neither the right nor left wing is competent. Both the right and left point fingers at each other. The country is fucked and neither side can present a good solution. Bottom line? Fuck politics. Fuck the self-righteous bullshit of the republican party and fuck the condescending know-it-all douchebags from the democratic party; neither side can fix anything because both sides have their heads so far up their asses and each other's asses that a solution is never going to present itself at the rate they're going.



They are both fuckups, but they are about as far from being _equal_ fuckups as you can get.


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## Fernin (Jan 2, 2013)

I.
Don't.
Care.


/thread


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jan 3, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> That's what I and a shit ton of people have been saying since forever.  However the whole reaction to the idea of getting rid of the electoral college is always and has forever been "ermagad then we'll have mob majority cause every 1 r t3h stoopidier th@n my intullgience".
> 
> Why do you think I want to see this shit go down so badly?  The sooner this shit blows up the sooner congress can get back to work.  There's a massive division right now between boehner and a large portion of republicans in office who live in deep red areas and chances are there's going to be a throw down pretty soon within the republican party.


So, uhm, let's hope when it happens republicans won't do anything too stupid? ( I guess that actual riots could get ugly)


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## CannonFodder (Jan 3, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> So, uhm, let's hope when it happens republicans won't do anything too stupid? ( I guess that actual riots could get ugly)


The tea party in congress are already threatening civil war with how boehner and 85 republicans voted for the compromise.  We're going to be lucky if it's just riots.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jan 3, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> The tea party in congress are already threatening civil war with how boehner and 85 republicans voted for the compromise.  We're going to be lucky if it's just riots.


riots + gun freaks = baaaaaaaaad combination

Btw, how is US law on the Army being used inside the country?


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## CannonFodder (Jan 3, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> riots + gun freaks = baaaaaaaaad combination
> 
> Btw, how is US law on the Army being used inside the country?


It's generally frowned down upon cause of the kent state massacre, even though that was half a century ago, but if it does become riots with guns then I don't see how anyone would try and support the rioters.  Even foxnews wouldn't defend rioters with guns.  It'd be the ultimate political suicide for the far right and the tea party.


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## Attaman (Jan 3, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> It'd be the ultimate political suicide for the far right and the tea party.


 More or less than telling Sandy victims "Fuck you you can wait for two more months" and victims of Domestic Abuse "Fuck you stop being such vile temptresses"? Since they seem to be doing their darndest to shoot themselves in the foot the last few days.


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## Gryphoneer (Jan 3, 2013)

Toboe Moonclaw said:


> Btw, how is US law on the Army being used inside the country?


Posse comitatus.

US military personnel is not allowed to safeguard domestic law and order (conducting police actions, etc.). Exceptions are the National Guard and special situations such as riots as described by the Insurrection Act.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 3, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> Posse comitatus.
> 
> US military personnel is not allowed to safeguard domestic law and order (conducting police actions, etc.). Exceptions are the National Guard and special situations such as riots as described by the Insurrection Act.


If the tea party does try to launch a insurrection what do you think are the chances the military will step in?  Or would we just send the national guard first unless the shit really hits the fan.


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## Toboe Moonclaw (Jan 3, 2013)

Gryphoneer said:


> Posse comitatus.
> 
> US military personnel is not allowed to safeguard domestic law and order  (conducting police actions, etc.). Exceptions are the National Guard  and special situations such as riots as described by the Insurrection  Act.


Ah ok, then it's like germany (guess it was copied from the US).



CannonFodder said:


> If the tea party does try to launch a insurrection what do you think are the chances the military will step in?  Or would we just send the national guard first unless the shit really hits the fan.


Well, there also is the question if there would be an insurrection, could also be a spike in shootings and wannabe-Breiviks (so, paranoid solo/small group attackers, kinda insurrection sans organization)


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## Gryphoneer (Jan 3, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> If the tea party does try to launch a insurrection what do you think are the chances the military will step in?  Or would we just send the national guard first unless the shit really hits the fan.


As the negotiations about the fiscal cliff showed, the Teabaggers don't need to rebel, they already rule half the country.

The GOP has been swallowed by the loony elements of Movement Republicanism and are content if they "have their way", i.e. obstruct the opposition at every opportunity. Barring another meltdown, there's not a big chance of America going DMZ.


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## Aetius (Jan 3, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> If the tea party does try to launch a insurrection what do you think are the chances the military will step in?  Or would we just send the national guard first unless the shit really hits the fan.



This is going too much into the absurd.


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## CannonFodder (Jan 3, 2013)

Aetius said:


> This is going too much into the absurd.


Hey I think so too, but then again they're threatening to start a civil war.  When a political party is threatening to kill cause they didn't get their way that's a bad sign shit's going to go down in some form.


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