# Part of the reason why I rant about Oblivion



## ADF (Aug 3, 2008)

I've had plenty of threads in the past talking about balancing, dumbing down, favouritism and such; but I have never really went into depth regarding my attachment to the game. If I hate the game why do I keep trying to play it again? Why do I bother hunting down mods only to become disappointed, dump the game, then try it again later knowing how it will end?

Years back, long before I knew about furry, I liked to play lizard characters in games. Lizards are my favourite RL animal; so when a game gave me the opportunity to play an anthropomorphic one it would quickly grab my interest, especially considering how rare the option was. Back then EverQuest was the big MMO; it joined two of my interests together, RPG and a playable lizard race, so obviously I had to jump right in.

Now on first glance you would think EverQuest 1 would have been perfect for me back then, but I quickly found my views of lizardmen were quite differen't from others.







Games always viewed lizardmen the same; dumb, evil, savages. If I wanted to play a Lizardman I couldn't play my favourite EQ class the enchanter; instead I was forced into playing some dumb savage warrior, or evil spellcaster like a necromancer or tribal shaman. My preferred class was completely incompatible with the Iksar lizard race, the class demanded high charisma which the Iksar race had very little of.






This it not unique to EverQuest, the vast majority of games lucky enough to let you access a lizardman character always pushed you into the same stereotype. If you wanted to play a lizard like creature you had to be dumb, you had to be barbaric and at times evil.

I'm sure furries can understand the frustration of this, everyone else seemed fine with the idea while I was the one guy who wanted to play a beast race with more human/elf like qualities. Of course everyone else rejected the idea; asking for a smart or charismatic beast character was like asking for a hulking barbarian elf or skinny dwarf mage, it just didn't fit the stereotype they had created in their mind.

Then one day I discovered Morrowind, my first The Elder Scrolls game.






All the sudden the stereotypes went out the window; you could be the warrior elf, the combat race mage, and more importantly to me any type of lizard race class you wanted. There was no brick wall blocking you from becoming what you wanted in Morrowind; you could pick the Argonian lizard race and be a mage, warrior, thief, hybrid, good, evil, smart, stupid, charismatic, fast, strong or anything you could possibly want to be. You were not punished for playing what race you really wanted.

This stood out above everything else; above the bugs, the balancing flaws, the performance issues and everything else there was likely a mod to help with. I instantly fell in love with the game; it becoming one of my all time favourites. Not only did it finally provide what I always wanted; but it was also an in depth and unique RPG.

Then one day Oblivion was announced; obviously I was excited and wanted to know as much about the game as possible, specifically what Argonian's looked like in modern graphics. Now remember Morrowind was my first TES game, at that point I had no hands on experience of the series history and what to expect in the transition to the next game from Bethesda.






The big blow was seeing Argonian's going from their more beast like digigrade form...






To a more human like, standing upright form.

I knew at the time this wasn't a lore or artistic choice; it was done purely for the convenience, by recycling meshes and animations the developers saved time and money. I understood the logic behind it; but after becoming accustomed to the more beast like form in Morrowind, and someone who was soon to become a reptile furry, it bothered me *a lot*. It was like taking away their tail, they removed some of the essence of their beast characteristics, what set them apart from other races. They were essentially re-textured humans with a tail and a lizard head slapped on top.

As if this wasn't bad enough some of the forum Devs started insulting the intelligence of fans by creating new lore. All the sudden there was a sub species of humanoid Argonian's; something the long time fans quickly pointed out was never mentioned before, there was your Morrowind style Argonian's and mention of a tree dwelling lizard but no humanoids.

It bothered me so much I took part in multiple threads on the official forums complaining about the change, some of the debates got rather heated. There is this one I can recall were I spoke a few choice words about the developers sacrificing game consistency to save a few bucks; which a passing Dev didn't take too kindly to. I don't think I had ever managed to make a professional developer go into a rant before then, he went on several paragraphs about not having to consider two differen't sets of animations would dramatically improve the quality of all animations; we saw how that went as Bethesda lived up to their reputation for stiff animation.

Basically all their claims regarding quality over quantity didn't live up; the weapon skills are not more in depth because they cut many of them out and the animations are just as shoddy as when Argonian's were unique.

Yet despite all this; despite the bugs, the balancing, the dumbing down, the unoriginal story and world, the hand holding and various other grievances... The Elder Scrolls is still one of the few games that don't punish you for picking a beast race character, even if they are less beast like now.

I may get a superior role playing experience from a game like Neverwinter Night 2, The Witcher or Mass Effect today but none of them provide the beast race role playing experience I want from an RPG. Beggars cannot be choosers they say so I want to like Oblivion, I spend hours hunting down the mods I hope will improve it just enough that I can enjoy playing an Argonian Mage without the game feeling lacking. So the game is both a love and hate relationship; it is one of the few that actually provide something I want from an RPG, while at the same time failing in my eyes to live up as a decent RPG.

A furry forum like Fur Affinity is really the only place that has a chance of understanding why I'm having so many issues with this game.


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## Ride_the_Lightning (Aug 3, 2008)

The only thing I liked about the transition between Morrowind and Oblivion when it comes to Beast races is that you can wear full helmets and boots.

That I aside, here is the reason why I don't like Oblivion:
-Skills were dumbed down, no spears, short blades, axes, crossbows, longblades, just Blade/Blunt/Marksman;
-No matter how strong you were, goblins were always stronger;
-Despite the fact that people BEGGED Bethesda to add Dual Weapons and Mounted Combat, they didn't give a damn;
-You had to be in one of the higher ranks in the Mages Guild to make enchanted weapons and custom spells? Like what the Hell?
-Zero Immersion;
-No lycanthropes, but they took the time to make Vampires.


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## virus (Aug 3, 2008)

Actually, the everquest iksar where highly intelligent and specialized themselves in only certain areas. I have the original Kunark booklet and used to be an everquest guru. Everquest did that "class specific" thing because they didn't want things to be unbalanced, shortly screwing everything up with the release of those farking frogs.

I had an iksar character I loved being him. I liked killing mass amounts of orcs to get the trust of the freeport militia(corrupt they may be but none the less I could walk on human grounds). I liked their own mysterious lineage of how they wanted to be the superior race and got shot to ruins.
People thought I was sexy too  . Not too many low level iksar ran all the way to freeport when I was around. 

Since everquest isn't run by the same people who started it anymore, of course they are going to twist the lore of what it originally was. They've made them more evil then they where originally.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm annoyed at Oblivion purely because how stupid it treats you, especially if you've just came off of Morrowind.
I don't care if the combat is better, I'm not a retard *>: [*


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## Mc_Jack (Aug 3, 2008)

im a oblivion freak iv done over 2000 hours played time on my main guy ^_^ to bad no moar patches or expansions  D=


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## Wait Wait (Aug 3, 2008)

so basically morrowind is better than oblivion

i can get behind this


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## Rhainor (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> so basically morrowind is better than oblivion


Depends on what you like in your RPGs.

Morrowind is WAY more complex.  Oblivion has way better graphics, and at least some of the simplification is a good thing (In Morrowind, you could "hit" an enemy with your weapon -- the models would make contact -- but still do zero damage due to the game's random-hit-damage system.  In Oblivion, if you make contact, it takes damage).


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

man i don't play RPGs for the combat mechanics
also i disliked oblivion's graphic style, everything was bland and generic
and technical graphics don't really matter in an RPG


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## Bambi (Aug 4, 2008)

Ride_the_Lightning said:


> The only thing I liked about the transition between Morrowind and Oblivion when it comes to Beast races is that you can wear full helmets and boots.
> 
> That I aside, here is the reason why I don't like Oblivion:
> -Skills were dumbed down, no spears, short blades, axes, crossbows, longblades, just Blade/Blunt/Marksman;
> ...


 
Quoted for emphasis. I was very dissapointed when they removed Spears, or where in past Oblivions, they never thought of combining certain weapons to produce vastly different combative strategies, (spears and shields for one).

Mounted combat would've been a big plus -- that unfortunately is something I'll have to like in other video games that have gone that direction. Of course, you can't please everyone; but that dynamic alone would've done enough to make the game that much more interesting.


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## Bokracroc (Aug 4, 2008)

Rhainor said:


> Depends on what you like in your RPGs.
> 
> Morrowind is WAY more complex.  Oblivion has way better graphics, and at least some of the simplification is a good thing (In Morrowind, you could "hit" an enemy with your weapon -- the models would make contact -- but still do zero damage due to *the game's random-hit-damage system*.  In Oblivion, if you make contact, it takes damage).



It's actually based on 'dice-rolls'. The higher your skill, the better chance you have of hitting them. The 'roll' after that determines damage. But yeah, not really the best idea to have in a 1st/3rd RPG.
I don't have a problem with the Shields though. Face it, if you aren't trained in using a shield, you just can't instantly block everything.


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## Rhainor (Aug 4, 2008)

Bokracroc said:


> It's actually based on 'dice-rolls'. The higher your skill, the better chance you have of hitting them. The 'roll' after that determines damage. But yeah, not really the best idea to have in a 1st/3rd RPG.


Yeah, I was just trying to get the point across without delving into specifics.


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## kitetsu (Aug 4, 2008)

I guess it's only tradition to be racist pricks to any beastly folk.


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## Ride_the_Lightning (Aug 4, 2008)

Bambi said:


> Mounted combat would've been a big plus -- that unfortunately is something I'll have to like in other video games that have gone that direction. Of course, you can't please everyone; but that dynamic alone would've done enough to make the game that much more interesting.



Like I said, the game literally begged Bethesda to do it, and it would have been doable weren't they lazy bastards.

Also, the Argorians and Khajiit weren't supposed to be playable in Morrowind, they would only appear as slaves. Since people started to threaten to not buy the game at all, and due to overall whining of the community, Bethesda made some last minute changes and allowed them to be playable.

All in all, the only developer that actually works with the community these days is Blizzard. Bethesda is being more and more of a jerk (I mean they didn't release the TES Construction Set with the initial release of Oblivion? Like WTF?)


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

...blizzard?  really?  
how, exactly


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## Magikian (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> ...blizzard?  really?
> how, exactly



-_- 

I thought I had got away from bitching about Blizzard when I left the WoW forums...

I guess I was wrong.


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

they're _okay_ at working with the community
i wouldn't say they're the best


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## Magikian (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> they're _okay_ at working with the community
> i wouldn't say they're the best



Oh thank GOD.

At least you aren't a whiny little kid who plays JUST to bitch about the Horde always winning in X battleground or whatever.

Ehh... Just thinking about them makes me cringe.

ANYWAY! Back on topic... Oblivion was a good game and all, but as with every game that gets over-hyped, it ends up sucking compared to people's expectations of the game.. (Though I must admit, the combat is better, Morrowind's pissed me off...)


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

morrowind _did_ have gimpy combat

but the game as a whole was never really about combat (at least for me)
i had the most fun doing quests/exploring/gear gathering

basically:  being immersed in the world, something oblivion lacked heavily


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## Magikian (Aug 4, 2008)

Wait Wait said:


> morrowind _did_ have gimpy combat
> 
> but the game as a whole was never really about combat (at least for me)
> i had the most fun doing quests/exploring/gear gathering
> ...



I agree, it's just the first race I played as was an Orc.. and I would always friggin' fall over randomly... So I changed to a Dark Elf.


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## Wait Wait (Aug 4, 2008)

mine was a breton, then the data got corrupted
then i made my redguard who was was the best ever

i almost want to go play again


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## Mikael Grizzly (Aug 4, 2008)

OP, one thing. In Wizardry 8 there are two kinds of lizards - the less advanced lizardmen and the advanced Dracons. You seem to have misunderstood that.

Anyways, I did take an advanced Dracon and made a psychotic French killing machine out of him. It was awesome.


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## Tezztor (Aug 4, 2008)

I know how the original poster feels I love playing reptilians, but often time they are stereo typed as stupid warlike beings. Everquest actually portrayed them as very intelligent but they were still somewhat savage the be good the player had to use their own imagination. Elder scrolls did a good job of finally letting the reptilian player break the dumb and shadowy bonds by allowing us to be good if we so chose.

However in oblivion they decided being reptilian wasnt enough, they had to turn them more human which was a big disappointment to me.

I guess one of the negatives to being a scalie gamer is that your almost always seen as the bad guy and that your dumb or clumsy. Its a real shame too.

Ill have to hand a few things to everquest in that regard and morrowind, they kept em reptilian. One thing I always hate to see on reptilian characters, even moreso female reptilians is breasts. They arent mammals they shouldnt even have em. There are more ways to portray a female character then the size of her chest. It has always been a pet peeve of mine. But I guess its more to appease the masses then any real care for reptilian genetics.

I guess Overall I want to be a reptilian that is reptilian, not a mix of human genetics and male lust. I want to be able to be the good guy or just mindlessly murder everything in sight.

One thing everquest allowed you too do that was great for being a good reptile is work on getting faction with the good cities. It made you feel like you were on a quest to prove yourself apart from your evil kin. It was a nice touch that really no other game truly captured. But still if you were a Iksar necromancer you can be all friendly as you like but you still poisoned, plagued and braught fear to your enemies.

One thing in defence of the companies is these races most likely weren't designed with furries in mind. It can be hard to please some furries as some of them like myself can be extremely passionate about it and nitpick about everything we dont like. I guess in a way we should be glad they are even there. Everquest didnt start out with Iksar nor were argonians even originally planned to be in Morrowind

As for Oblivion I really liked the game, sure I prefered the more feral Argonians of Morrowind but I delt with it and really enjoyed the game. Some people tend to whine about this and that but seems to me like enough people enjoyed the game. The combat in my personal opinion was worlds better then morrowinds. Both games had their pluses and negatives. I remember in morrowind exploring at a early level, beating some bandits and finding other bandits that despite how similar they looked, tore me a new one. In base Morrowind a lot of the armors were so ugly, I think Oblivion did that better.

 I could probably go on forever and nitpick between the two games and the portraying of reptilian characters all I know is I played the reptiles anyways and I loved both games


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## ADF (Aug 4, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> OP, one thing. In Wizardry 8 there are two kinds of lizards - the less advanced lizardmen and the advanced Dracons. You seem to have misunderstood that.
> 
> Anyways, I did take an advanced Dracon and made a psychotic French killing machine out of him. It was awesome.



I've played Wizardry 8 so know about the draconian's, the image was mostly taken as an example of the stereotyping of lizardmen. Despite allowing the dragon people to be intelligent; they still threw lizardmen into the dumb/violent/tribal category.


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## Dyluck (Sep 2, 2008)

Heh, I've beaten Morrowind and Bloodmoon using the Khajiit character that I started with. Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said about Morrowind being better than Oblivion. Video games these days really just don't have that *soul* that I used to love in the older ones.


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## Notorious (Sep 2, 2008)

One thing I've always hated about Oblivion is the guilds and their ranking systems. In Morrowind you had to do some quest and get some skills up to a certain level. In Oblivion it's do 2 quests and talk to someone and get a rank.


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## Ashkihyena (Sep 2, 2008)

The thing I hated about Morrowind was the way the Argonians and Kahjiits walked, that bugged me a little, the other thing that I hated didn't have to do with any of the races was that there was no compass.  Granted, the game was fucking great, but I get lost, easily.

Personally, I love both games, hell, I'm working on my recent play threw of Oblivion with a female Argonian.  Just wish Patrick Stewart got more of a chance to speak then he did.


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## Mikael Grizzly (Sep 2, 2008)

Quest compass is the most retarded design element in gaming ever since someone decided to tailor games to the casual gamer instead of making good games.


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## Ashkihyena (Sep 2, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Quest compass is the most retarded design element in gaming ever since someone decided to tailor games to the casual gamer instead of making good games.



Says you, I'm glad they added it in.  I remember one quest in Morrowind, one of the Fighter's Guild quest where you have to deliver some wine or something of the sort I think it was, and I could never find it without the guide, even then I had trouble finding  the area, so yeah, I'm glad the compass got included.


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## ADF (Sep 2, 2008)

Ashkihyena said:


> The thing I hated about Morrowind was the way the Argonians and Kahjiits walked, that bugged me a little, the other thing that I hated didn't have to do with any of the races was that there was no compass.  Granted, the game was fucking great, but I get lost, easily.
> 
> Personally, I love both games, hell, I'm working on my recent play threw of Oblivion with a female Argonian.  Just wish Patrick Stewart got more of a chance to speak then he did.


The reason the beast races are so crude in Morrowind is because the developers tried to remove them, they originally intended their role in Morrowind to be a none playable slave race. Fan complaints later had them brought back, but as you can see it was a rushed job.

Funny that, the old Bethesda responded to fan complaints while the new one ignored every single criticism made about Oblivion during development. The main difference between Morrowind and Oblivion is Todd Howard had complete control over the development of Oblivion, pre Oblivion the original TES game designer took part. What does that say?

As for the quest compass, I hate that bloody thing. In Morrowind I explored environments with a map and directions, that was immersion, in Oblivion a field is turned into a corridor as a leash attached to a compass drags me from place to place and points out every discovery in advance. You can never turn off the damn thing because the game is built to rely on it, probably in the name of saving voice acting money from having to give directions...

The thing only exists because some people couldn't find a damn puzzle cube, put on a damn shelf, in its own damn room, one damn door from the entrance. If those are the type of incompetent people they were making the game for then allot of things suddenly make sense.


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## Ashkihyena (Sep 2, 2008)

Oh, I could find the puzzle cube just fine, it was when I was out in the Red Mountains with ash storms and all that I'd get lost, so I'm still glad its in Oblivion, I mean, I didn't mind walking to where my destination was, but once there, or around that area, I could never find it.


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## Tycho (Sep 2, 2008)

Mikael Grizzly said:


> Quest compass is the most retarded design element in gaming ever since someone decided to tailor games to the casual gamer instead of making good games.



Is there a happy medium between the two? I should hope so, because casual gamers deserve to enjoy their $50 just as much as diehard grognard lore-nerds like you or me.

I don't have this contempt for casual gamers you seem to have.  The "dumbing down" in Oblivion is annoying, but quite frankly Morrowind was dumbed down, severely so in comparison to Daggerfall.  For me, Morrowind took some tweaks and mods to be enjoyable as any other character type but a sword-swinging thug.  You say you like Morrowind but pan Oblivion constantly... seems almost hypocritical to me.  As far as I'm concerned the last truly great CRPG was available on floppy disk.  Oblivion's melee combat system IS better than Morrowind's dull and decidedly unexciting melee system.  The magic system took a hit when they removed things like Levitate, and the lack of spears/halberds as a long-reach weapon is annoying, but I'm not going to miss those stupid bloody crossbows.

Also, I keep hearing about how Oblivion took a massive crap all over TES lore.  I've yet to see any real evidence of any major crapping-upon-lore.  The Daedric artifacts from Morrowind that make an inexplicable reappearance in Oblivion were GRAVY, not plot-oriented.  The Nerevarine taking a trip to Akavir - how is that bad? I mean, the man/woman just took down a false demigod and spat in the face of an entire religion (the Tribunal), saved Morrowind from being overrun by ash-monsters and corprus beasts... he's gonna move on and look to bigger and better things, I think.  The Elder Scrolls being stolen - that isn't without precedent.  I mean, COME ON.  SHOW ME these horrible affronts to Elder Scrolls lore.

The way I hear people bitching about Oblivion, you'd think they were playing TRESPASSER for fuck's sake.


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