# Fanstasy Setting vs Real World Customs



## Xadera (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm writing a story and one of my characters sneezes... Does the other character say "Bless you"?

In a fantasy setting that is pretty much entirely severed from the real world (aka, no real religions, none of our history, etc.), you try to stay away from our everyday customs unless it's canonical. For instance, in such a world, a character doesn't shout "Jesus Christ!" in profanity. 

However, at the same time, you don't want to alienate the setting too far from our world, otherwise readers have difficulty connecting to it. I'm not saying you should use "May the Giant-Ant condone your actions" when someone sneezes, but when you get to such a situation (and this may just pertain to my culture, not all of yours) it is a trained reaction to say "Bless you" or some variation thereof. It feels wierd not doing it, so the reader may feel slightly perturbed when they read it. Yet, without a historical reference to the concept of a "soul" it doesn't make much sense to say it to begin with (or whatever the origin mythos of that tradition is). 

Now, the above situation I resolved with a simple "excuse me" form of polite etiquette, but the problem is still there. Where do you draw the line between something being too non-canonical vs keeping it to prevent alienating your readers?

For some more examples: Do you call a thong a "thong" (or the more apt "butt floss")? How far can you tweak a common statement ("Oh my God!") before it just seems stupid ("Oh my Flying Spaghetti!")? Is there a wide-array of natural wildlife beyond the wide-array of sentient anthromorphs (and is it okay to have both anthro and non-anthro version of the same animal)? "Frak" vs "F*ck"?

I don't really know if readers actually pick up on these things (it glares at me when I come across them), so this could be a non-issue. If not, how bad do these situations have to be before it annoys you?


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## M. LeRenard (Jan 28, 2009)

I've been over this before at some point....  But anyway, about the only thing that would throw me is if somebody did write "Jesus Christ!" as an expletive (or as anything else, for that matter) in a fantasy setting that has nothing to do with Christianity.  Or if they used any other Earth deity names.
But otherwise... honestly, it would seem silly to me no matter what they replaced things with.  Why go to great lengths to change certain things about the language when you're writing in English to begin with?
Think of it this way: when you translate a foreign language into English, what do you do with idioms?  Well, you translate them into English's corresponding idioms, because otherwise they would make no sense.  Like for French... rather than saying 'bless you', or any form thereof, they say "A vos souhaits".  Literally translated, it means something like "To your health," but you don't translate it like that; you translate it as 'bless you', because that's what we say in English.  Just like you wouldn't translate the French sentence "Il fait beau" as "He makes handsome," even though that's literally what it is, word for word; rather, you'd translate it as "It's a nice day," because that's what it *means*.
So I see it as being the exact same situation for a fantasy setting; it's a translation issue.  Since we're dealing with another world, obviously some things must change (like I said above), but for the rest... why not just use English idioms?
To answer your question, then, it bothers me any time someone consistently replaces useful English words or phrases with something stupid that they made up.  If it's logical, I'm fine with it, but otherwise... sheesh, save us the agony.


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## FrostByte421 (Jan 28, 2009)

I understand you question, and I did the same thing in my story Re_Creation, which is on this forum *cough cough*  in which in the one instance the main character says, "I swear to the overseer"  instead of god.


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## Xadera (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh, I only looked through the first 4 pages of threads to see if this topic was already posted (my interwebs are too slow to bother going further), so sorry if this is spam x.x

I'm not much of a language buff (at all), so I never thought about it that way. It's quite helpful. Although, I must admit, I do prefer actual translations over using similar idioms as they retain a hint of the culture of the original idiom. For instance, "to your health" sounds like a simple nod to the person's health, whereas "Bless you" actually refers to a traditional fear that your soul was trying to escape (or I could be spouting complete bull; I haven't actually studied up on these things). Then again, I'm talking about video/audio (aka anime and some music), since I have no experience with translated texts. 

Nevertheless! Despite my ranting, there are still some things I'd like to pick your brain about along these lines  Rather than the simple customs and language use, do you ever find yourself contempting the use of real materials in this fantasy world? 

Essentially, in a fantasy world that harkens back to a medieval period (no electricity, sparse populations, maybe even magic), is there a degree of technology (even in clothing design) that would annoy you? My case here would be the generic Dungeons and Dragons setting, and introducing gun-powder guns or - even more extreme - computers. I have heard many uproars of disgust when such a thing happens. I'm sure that if you worked it right, though, it would all fit together in a pleasant manner that is palatable to everyone. How far should the writer go to make it that way?

I guess my question kinda comes down to this: When using modern technologies (in my case, lingerie tends to make me think a lot) in a fantasy setting, how can I tell when I'm on the verge of ruining the mood? Or, when have I gone from "Bless you" (simple, harmless idiom) to "Jesus Christ!" (an idiom that "throws you"), in the above terms? Between being on the writing end of the product and trying to develop a (hopefully) original setting/plot, I don't know if the readers are enjoying it and I try not to turn to some precendence. Hence, I worry XD

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs though (or just plain thinking too much), so I'm sorry if this is a nuisance >. >

Edit: Crap! I just realized "Bless you" could possibly (and more probably) means to be blessed with good health, making that statement much more likely false. I hope the point remains! @.@


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## M. LeRenard (Jan 28, 2009)

> When using modern technologies (in my case, lingerie tends to make me think a lot) in a fantasy setting, how can I tell when I'm on the verge of ruining the mood?


It's all relative.  If you make it clear from the start that your fantasy world is one that has computers and lingerie, no one will be confused if you bring that up later on.  But on the other hand, if you start the story in a medieval European setting, where everyone's running around in hose and tunics, and then you describe someone sitting at a computer wearing lingerie... well, obviously that would be confusing.
It's all about logic and consistency.  I see no reason one couldn't build a computer with magic instead of using the laws of physics in a fantasy setting; you should just make it clear that such a thing is possible (or has been done) early on.  And you have to keep in mind the consistency aspect, too: if someone had the time to think up a computer, there probably don't exist the awful serf conditions as in during the real Middle Ages, so one would assume the technology level of other things would also be up to par.  As in, why would someone start thinking about inventing a computer when plumbing doesn't exist yet?  Some things are just more necessary, and so come first in the line of technology.  And like for weapons, you won't have people running around in full plate mail if you can fire bullets at them.  Technology changes with the advent of other technologies.
If you want to go that far, so be it.  But if, as you said, the setting is very traditional Middle Ages type stuff, don't go talking about people fighting with gatling guns in their chain shirts.  That's just silly.


> so sorry if this is spam x.x


No... I don't even remember where that was.  I think it was part of an unrelated topic, actually.  So this is a legitimate question.


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## Poetigress (Jan 28, 2009)

Yeah, topics tend to sort of... migrate around here, so it probably was buried in an unrelated thread when it came up before.

As a reader, I don't mind unusual fantasy-type curses and so on, as long as they're consistent and sound believable (which usually means nothing too long or complicated).  Details like that help immerse me in the story's world.  I agree that you definitely don't want what I call the "Father Christmas in Narnia" problem, where you have expressions that make no sense whatsoever in the fantasy world's context.  (I was confronted with this when I realized that my novel's world technically doesn't seem to have a concept of hell, so I had to alter curses appropriately.)

There are gray areas, definitely, and I think it's important to realize that you're not going to please every reader.  Some will get turned off by the fantasy-based idioms, and others will be irritated by the real-world stuff.

In the end, you have to consider what's right for that particular story's world and style.  For example, I remember reading a furry story somewhere, written from the perspective of a real-world fox, and the phrase "learning the ropes" was used.  That stood out negatively to me because it was too far out of the fox's perception -- I mean, it's a nautical phrase, and it just didn't sound believable to me coming from an animal living as a regular fox in our regular world.  That said, I can see the argument MLR makes above about "translation," and I could also see the argument being made that a fox living in our world who has contact with humans (which this character really didn't, but anyway) might pick up human expressions without knowing what they mean.  After all, we use a lot of expressions ourselves without necessarily knowing their origins.  You can argue it either way, so it really becomes an issue of taste at that point.  

As for the style aspect, if that story had been written in a more fable/fairy-tale or humorous style, the expression wouldn't have bothered me, because there would have been more leeway for the character to talk like an average human.  Or, if you're dealing with an animal who is more urban or domesticated than wild, and lives among humans, you can play off that as well.  A dog might use phrases a fox wouldn't get at all.   But if you're going to create a self-contained animal culture, without human influence (or with very little human influence), it does feel more realistic to give a least a little thought to what their particular turns of phrase might be, and how they might differ from what we're familiar with -- as long as the human reader can tell the intent of the phrase from the context, of course.

Let's see... I think MLR covered the computers and lingerie question brilliantly, so I have nothing to add there.  


[*ETA:* Another example that came to mind is a book I read recently written for children, set in ancient Egypt.  In a bit at the end (can't remember if it was an interview of the author or just an author's note), the author mentions that money didn't exist in the Egypt of that time period.  Obviously that meant he couldn't have references to actual physical money, but he pointed out that it also impacted how his characters spoke and thought -- he couldn't have them say, for example, that they were going to "spend a day" somewhere, or that someone "paid a price" for his actions.  I know to some readers, that would come across as completely anal retentive and unnecessary -- again, you could use the translation argument and use those phrases anyway --but I was impressed by how thoroughly the author had thought things through, and how determined he was to try to write characters true to that world, even in terms of speech and thought.  

These things impact historical fiction as well as fantasy and science fiction.  I think anytime you're dealing with a story set anywhere other than our current day and current world, you have to figure out how to immerse the reader not just in the physical setting, but in the mindset of the characters, and I think that helps both the characters and the world come alive.]


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## Xipoid (Jan 28, 2009)

Personally, I would suggest sticking with the same sentiment of such a saying but keeping the impact of the phrase similar to the shock of culture difference you are aiming for. Really, all you need to be doing is aiming for something reasonable. You don't want to have characters throwing around phrases that are awkward for both the story and reader.


Actually, read what Poetigress and M. Le Renard said. They make more sense.


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## Xadera (Jan 28, 2009)

M. Le Renard said:


> why would someone start thinking about inventing a computer when plumbing doesn't exist yet?


 
Because I enjoy computers more than plumbing? XD I'm kidding. That's actually a very good point. Whenever I have out-of-place technology, I'll try to keep in mind what other things should also be in place to make the technology make sense.



> There are gray areas, definitely, and I think it's important to realize that you're not going to please every reader. Some will get turned off by the fantasy-based idioms, and others will be irritated by the real-world stuff.


 
Yeah, I guess I'll just have to keep that more in mind : / I do very much like the immersion aspect though, so I'll aim for that more out of my own preferences =D Except when it's becoming too much effort - I'll keep a eye out for when details are overcoming story-flow.

Thanks to you all for the help! I have a much better idea of what I'm doing and much less worry while doing it


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