# What are your most favorite weapons?



## Eerie Silverfox (Mar 21, 2009)

I likes railcannons, molotov cocktails, estoc and bows.



...and katana, claymores



...and flails...


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## Ratte (Mar 21, 2009)

Blades of any sort, molotovs, bows, and tanks.


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## RacKit (Mar 21, 2009)

Knife!


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## Endless Humiliation (Mar 21, 2009)

Sawed-off shotguns, shivs, crystal knifes, fireplace pokers, mace, brass knuckles.


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## Tycho (Mar 21, 2009)

Long flights of stairs, speeding automobiles, slippery floors.


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## jagdwolf (Mar 21, 2009)

nukes.

but im fresh out, so any extreme long range impact item.

close up and personal?  sabre


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## Endless Humiliation (Mar 21, 2009)

I forgot homemade nailbombs.


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## Wildberry Blue (Mar 21, 2009)

Any pump-action shotgun. Nothing else quite says "Fuck subtlety, this is war." Except maybe a minigun, but let's keep it reasonable.


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## Repiotou (Mar 21, 2009)

Katana and Diamond-Tipped Shuriken are all I need to assassinate your ass.


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## Wildberry Blue (Mar 21, 2009)

Repiotou said:


> Katana and Diamond-Tipped Shuriken are all I need to assassinate your ass.



Translation: I'm Wapanese and I'm not even gonna try to hide it.


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## Aden (Mar 21, 2009)

Didn't we have a thread like this already? Or four?


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## Repiotou (Mar 21, 2009)

Wildberry Blue said:


> Translation: I'm Wapanese and I'm not even gonna try to hide it.


 Translation: I am an assuming ass and I'm not gonna even THINK about hiding it.

Other weapons I fav are RPGs, Sniper Rifles, Bazookas, AK-47, Minigun.

Do planes count? If so, F-22, Su-30, F-4 and and X-...I forget the number, but it was "X" something.


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## Wildberry Blue (Mar 21, 2009)

Repiotou said:


> Translation: I am an assuming ass and I'm not gonna even THINK about hiding it.



The difference here is that you're just stating the obvious.


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## Repiotou (Mar 21, 2009)

Wildberry Blue said:


> The difference here is that you're just stating the obvious.


 I was talking about you if you didn't know.


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## Wildberry Blue (Mar 21, 2009)

Repiotou said:


> I was talking about you if you didn't know.



Yeah, I got that.

It's just that everybody and his grandpa idolizes the katana like they're forged by God himself. Just once I'd like to see an invincible badass with a rapier or broadsword or dao or literally any other kind of sword.


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## Shark_the_raptor (Mar 21, 2009)

XM8, M1 Garand, Desert Eagle


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## SirrocoTheServal (Mar 21, 2009)

For machines F-22 Raptor, M1 Abrams Tank, Delta IV Nuclear Submarine. For guns Desert Eagle .50cal, Barrett 82A1. Yeah I think that should take care of them pesky anti-furs...


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## eternal_flare (Mar 21, 2009)

how about the original claws and fangs?
Bah, Napalms pwnz all!


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## Ratte (Mar 21, 2009)

Panzers.


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## xakmf (Mar 21, 2009)

Knives and Bows (re-curve or compound)


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## Ro4dk1ll (Mar 21, 2009)

H&K MP7, H&K MP5, MAC-11, short blades and commonplace blunt items that can be used as weapons, such as hammers, sledgehammers, shovels, pipes etc.
Like in Condemned, where you bash someone in the face, and they grab a pipe off the wall and smack you one... Fucking love fights like that.

Oh, and Chainsaws.


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 21, 2009)

This


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 21, 2009)

... my razor-sharp wit.  And my new Bubba Stik.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

I really like the Ronin Ninja Sword, specifically the one like in Metal Gear Solid (the cyborg ninja's all used and called the HF-Blade) though I've never been able to find one made from proper metal, I would like Titanium, even Carbon Titanium Steel if it were ever possible to get my hands on some.

I would also like match grade (depending on the metal of the sword) throwing daggers, the ones with the rings but I can't for the life of me remember the name of them.
I would have a small combat knife of match-grade metal as well, if I were to ever wear these things I would have the sword on my back, the throwing daggers positioned around my body at various places, and this little knife on my left upper chest for easy reach for my left hand; I would also have a larger combat knife on my right leg for my right hand to easily reach.

As for firearms my favorite handgun is easily the Mk.23 .45APC SOCOM Mod with LAM and Flashlight with suppressor if I ever wanted it.

I'm really fond of the new M468 (AKA REC7) made by Barrett to use the same lower receiver as the AR-15 series rifles but modified the rest of the weapon to take a larger round that can deliver more stopping power, penetration power, and still keep accuracy and range. Comes with a RIS rails standard and flip-up sights.

And as for a longer range weapon I really like the M200 Chey Tac Intervention for accuracy, lightweight, silence, range, and deadlyness.
I'm also very fond of the M107 and AS50, but the M200 beat it in my opinion, especially at range.

To stop a tank or just about anything else the SRAW (Short-Range Assault Weapon) would be my weapon of choice. Even if the Javelin will obliterate a tank, this will remove it from combat without the enemy forces on the ground knowing, they will probably think the tank is still operational and rush in thinking they have armor to cover them.

Flashbangs, Smoke, Fragmentation grenades are standard now, the best being the ones used the most, like the M67.


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## Irreverent (Mar 21, 2009)

I'll take an Irre tuned M14 and hand-loads, with a nice S&B or NF 6-32x50 and I'm combat effective to 1,200 metres.  If I drop this gun and have to fight my way back to it, I'll take a Sig P220 in .45acp every time.

Usually I'm running a tuned AR15 out to 600yards.  Starting to play with .260Rem on the AR platform.   Might see a few of those on the line later this afternoon.

(Hey, its Saturday, I'm teaching another rifle course)

For anything else, fade back into the background and call in close air support.


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## Henk86 (Mar 21, 2009)

Glock 22, 40. Calibre
SPAS 12 pump action Shotgun
Colt Python 357
MP5K-PDW


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## Attaman (Mar 21, 2009)

Real Weapons:
Ancient:  Pike / Spear Wall
Medieval:  Halberd
Renaissance:  Pistols, flintlock.
Pre-Modern:  M1-Garand
Modern:  AA-12 Shotgun

Fictional Weapons:
Ranged:  Bolter (Rapid fire .75cal gyrojet rockets of doom!)
Melee:  Chainsword (Chainsaw-sword.  Enough said.)



Wildberry Blue said:


> \It's just that everybody and his grandpa idolizes the katana like they're forged by God himself. Just once I'd like to see an invincible badass with a rapier or broadsword or dao or literally any other kind of sword.


Dread Pirate Robert? Guts?"Fighting" Jack Churchill (This one a real person)?



SirrocoTheServal said:


> For machines F-22 Raptor, M1 Abrams Tank, Delta IV Nuclear Submarine. For guns Desert Eagle .50cal, Barrett 82A1. Yeah I think that should take care of them pesky anti-furs...


You do realize regardless of how Hollywood depicts 'em, Desert Eagles really aren't that good of a weapon?

Anyways, I'm going to love hearing how these could be acquired and authorized for use against Anti-Furs.  Oh, and how this depicts Furries as a "Calm and accepting community".


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## Phenom (Mar 21, 2009)

Favorite gun: The AN-94 (the barrel absorbs the recoil.) it replaced the AK.

Favorite blade: Balisong (butterfly knife)


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## Teco (Mar 21, 2009)

Katana in one hand and a magnum or Deagle in the other. Booyah.

Sniper Rifles are fun too. Anyone will do.


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## a_person (Mar 21, 2009)

Mp5, M4 carbine w/red dot site and fore grip, Dragunov sniper Rifle, Desert Eagle, combat knife, grenades of any form, Brass Knuckles, and the classic beat down in any way shape or form


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## KazukiFerret (Mar 21, 2009)

I'm a fan of 'meh this shit works and it takes abuse; so I like it'

So AKM47 running Wolf Military Classic 125-grain HP as primary, Smith and Wesson model 29 loaded with .44spc, probably hornaday or whatever polymer tipped rounds I could get my paws on for my secondary. Melee; machete or a combat knife. If I needed long-range I think a Remington 700 with a decent scope in a competient caliber (perferably .308 or .30/'06) would do me just fine, if I wanted semiauto I'd probably take a Yugoslavian M76 in 8x57mm pushing handloaded polymer tipped rounds if I could find the damned slugs.

If I wanted something to be blown to high hell I'm a fan of C4 or just good old fashioned TNT or maybe an RPG-7v.

Defensive... welcoming mat of claymore mines.


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## KazukiFerret (Mar 21, 2009)

Attaman said:


> You do realize regardless of how Hollywood depicts 'em, Desert Eagles really aren't that good of a weapon?



The Desert Eagle is a good enough semiauto pistol and it's one of the few that can even manage to survive cycling rounds typically used in revolvers (IE the .357 and .44 Magnum) but since it has such a heavy slide that jerks back when it is fired in addition to the force of the recoil itself the gun can be neigh uncontrollable especially in .50AE and because of the extreme force the gun is subject to the parts tend to wear out quicker than say those in a Beretta M92FS 9mm. Desert Eagles are also quiet heavy, somewhere around five pounds unloaded and they use very large bullets (a .357 magnum round is about twice the length of a 9x19mm) so they're unweildy and they fire fairly slow and because they fire rimmed cartridges they tend to jam a lot more than I personally would like with a combat pistol.

They are very accurate pistols and they are firing very powerful rounds that have muzzle energies on par with most assault rifle's but they have a very low magazine capacity and are overall more of a hunting pistol than a combat pistol.

It'd do the job, not as competiently as a Glock 17 or a Colt 1911a1 but they'll kill what their bullets hit. But I wouldn't choose one considering for the space and weight that the Desert Eagle and its ammo take up I could carry both the Glock and the Colt.


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## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

Any pupose-made melee weapon really. I really like the M16 (f**k the M4) and SAW, though.


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## Mayfurr (Mar 21, 2009)

The pen.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> Any pupose-made melee weapon really. I really like the M16 (f**k the M4) and SAW, though.



What about the C7a2 and C8a2?


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## Kitsune (Mar 21, 2009)

Favorite guns:CBJ
sword: katanna like this one i have


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## Wildberry Blue (Mar 21, 2009)

Attaman said:


> You do realize regardless of how Hollywood depicts 'em, Desert Eagles really aren't that good of a weapon?



Considering the nature of the fandom, I don't think reality is too high on anyone's list of priorities.


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## Attaman (Mar 21, 2009)

Wildberry Blue said:


> Considering the nature of the fandom, I don't think reality is too high on anyone's list of priorities.


  Unfortunately, I'd have to say you're wrong.  Look at what some members think is real, about to become real, or will become real in due time.

Still, I can't complain:  Chainsaw swords are far from practical, no matter how their concept is hand-waved in universe.  Those things would be unwieldy beyond belief, and warp help anyone in the immediate area if the chain snaps and flings the teeth somewhere.


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## Wildberry Blue (Mar 21, 2009)

Attaman said:


> Unfortunately, I'd have to say you're wrong.  Look at what some members think is real, about to become real, or will become real in due time.



Well I personally am not swept in by the whole realism fad. I know that most of the stuff in action movies can't happen, and that's why it's fun. It's escapism, a way to unwind and just enjoy two hours of shit blowing up. I don't know why people seem to find that concept so offensive anymore.


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## Attaman (Mar 21, 2009)

Wildberry Blue said:


> Well I personally am not swept in by the whole realism fad. I know that most of the stuff in action movies can't happen, and that's why it's fun.


  I wasn't referring to action movies at that time, but instead some of the Fandom's viewpoints.  Such as commercial science methods allowing average people to be turned into Horse Anthros within the next decade or so.


> It's escapism, a way to unwind and just enjoy two hours of shit blowing up. I don't know why people seem to find that concept so offensive anymore.


That I don't mind.  Shoot 'em Up is one of my favorite movies, after all.


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## Skullmiser (Mar 21, 2009)

Phasers are nice, but what about the krenim temporal weapon ship, or the tantalus field? It would be better to just eliminate people or things from existence than to destroy them.


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## Seas (Mar 21, 2009)

My favourites , by category:

Medieval weapon: Brandistock and Throwing daggers
Modern weapon :  H&K Mp7a1  (site seems offline now...)
Fictional weapon:  Link gun

These are my 'irl' preferences btw, my fursona uses slightly different weapons, kind of similar to these , but more unique.


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## Werevixen (Mar 21, 2009)

Fabrique Nationale P90, because it is the single most efficient one-handed automatic weapon currently in existance.


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## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> What about the C7a2 and C8a2?


 
It ain't quite the same as the M16. It may be a varient, but I prefer the real deal.


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## Irreverent (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> What about the C7a2 and C8a2?



Heh.  I liked 'em better when they were made by Diemeco.  Colt Canada just aint the same.

But really, I'd rather a C1A1D variant.....metric FAL's rock!



Lulian said:


> It ain't quite the same as the M16. It may be a varient, but I prefer the real deal.



*blinks*  Huh?  What do you mean by "real deal?"  Do you mean a M16 with triangle hand guards, unchromed 20" pencil barrel, no forward bolt assist, a fixed carry handle receiver, non-windage adjustable rear site?  How '50's is that?

Or do you mean from a collector's perspective?  Unless its very low serial number, the Diemeco C7/C8's are typically worth more than the Colt/FN/Anchor made M16's in the US.


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## Not A Fox (Mar 21, 2009)

Weapons from the WWII era, a little before, and a little after, are some of my favorites. Hard to dislike a gun that's been imbued with a soul and wood furniture. 

Some things are odd or rare enough to catch my attention outside of that time-frame.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> It ain't quite the same as the M16. It may be a varient, but I prefer the real deal.



It's not a variant, the m16 is a variant, not the original; the C7 and C8 both have cold hammer forged barrels (much, much better than what the m16 and m4 have) as well they're lighter, come standard with a scope, as well have better materials that they're made out of.
It's more accurate, less issues, and lighter than their respective US similar.

It doesn't look the exact same, and if you're going for look then yeah.


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 21, 2009)

Roose Hurro said:


> ... my razor-sharp wit.  And my new Bubba Stik.



I have one of those.


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## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> It's not a variant, the m16 is a variant, not the original; the C7 and C8 both have cold hammer forged barrels (much, much better than what the m16 and m4 have) as well they're lighter, come standard with a scope, as well have better materials that they're made out of.
> It's more accurate, less issues, and lighter than their respective US similar.
> 
> It doesn't look the exact same, and if you're going for look then yeah.


 
Nah, I don't always go for looks. The M16 has always been reliable and faithful to the United States. Hell, I bet we only continue to use it since it's pretty much the iconic weapon of America, despite the fact that is it aging. Yet not all old guns are bad guns, just look at the AK-47 for example. Still being used even though I don't think it is widely produced anymore. When people go "omfg look at that T-62 so old it r sux" I pretty much go "Well, it may be weaker than say a T-90 or a more modern tank, but it is still a tank. Still has a gaint cannon and covered in armor."


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## Not A Fox (Mar 21, 2009)

Actually, lemme expand on my earlier post:


Astra 903

Beretta 38A

MP.41

MP.28

Sten Mk.II

Thompson M1928

PPSH 41

M3

MG.34T

DP28

Browning BAR


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## Aden (Mar 21, 2009)

Aden said:


> Didn't we have a thread like this already? Or four?



Say, this guy has a point.


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## Endless Humiliation (Mar 21, 2009)

Aden said:


> Say, this guy has a point.



*Wanking motion*


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## Aden (Mar 21, 2009)

Load_Blown said:


> *Wanking motion*



Wasn't the intent. Visualize it more like a facepalm-y type thing.


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## jcfynx (Mar 21, 2009)

Why do we need weapons? I don't like fighting...


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> The M16 has always been reliable...


Wait, what? 
M16a1 jammed a lot.
M16a2 had a few issues, some being overheating and severe jamming issues.
M16a3 had full automatic fire, so it wasn't issued to normal troops else they would waste their ammo, also had the same issues the a2 had.
M16a4 is the first one to have a rail system as standard, and like the A2 has a few issues, though the only big one left is the constant maintenance required to operate it effectively; keeping your weapon clean is always a good thing, but you can't get the M16 wet and fire it, and you can't get it dirty either. Though the overheating is non-existent in most cases on the a4, a large improvement but still not reliable.



Lulian said:


> faithful to the United States. Hell, I bet we only continue to use it since it's pretty much the iconic weapon of America, despite the fact that is it aging.


Well that's a better argument there; you like the weapon because it is of significance to your country.


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## Kaiit (Mar 21, 2009)

I am rather partial to a good, old fashioned bow and arrow. Can't give you any specifics because I've never looked into it, but I'd own one if I had money to blow.

I blame Robin Hood.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Kaiit said:


> I am rather partial to a good, old fashioned bow and arrow. Can't give you any specifics because I've never looked into it, but I'd own one if I had money to blow.
> 
> I blame Robin Hood.



What type of bow? I like bows, I love the old type of long-bows but if I were to ever get one it would have to be a compound-bow myself.


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## Kaiit (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> What type of bow? I like bows, I love the old type of long-bows but if I were to ever get one it would have to be a compound-bow myself.



As I said, I never looked into it so I have no idea xD

All I really know of bows is whatever they generally use at archery courses since I've been a couple of times. Must say, splendid fun shooting long distance.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Kaiit said:


> As I said, I never looked into it so I have no idea xD
> 
> All I really know of bows is whatever they generally use at archery courses since I've been a couple of times. Must say, splendid fun shooting long distance.


Isn't it? I love being able to watch my shot arc through the air and land dead-on target; it takes so much skill to use a bow & arrow, compared to using bullets.

We had archery in school during "gym", or physical education as it was properly called, where they called this one classmate Robin Hood for hitting the target once where most people failed; then I gained the title for that class period when I managed to hit the bullseye once and the target almost every time after missing the first shot the rest was kind of easy, but really fun.


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## Kaiit (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Isn't it? I love being able to watch my shot arc through the air and land dead-on target; it takes so much skill to use a bow & arrow, compared to using bullets.



Rather! And a lot of arm strength, which explains why I was terrible at long distance - I always fell short of the target. Never mind though, I did always get the most accurate when it came to target archery.

Our school took us a couple of times for PE if we were willing to pay the entrance fee. I jumped at the oppertunity. We did do rifle shooting, too, but it wasn't nearly as fun.


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## Not A Fox (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> The M16 has always been reliable and faithful to the United States.





Lulian said:


> *The M16 has always been reliable.*





Lulian said:


> I just said the M16 has never had problems.





Lulian said:


> I just proved that I know jack-shit-nothing about guns.





Lulian said:


> I am an ass.




words


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## Irreverent (Mar 21, 2009)

Not A Fox said:


> Actually, lemme expand on my earlier post:
> 
> 
> Astra 903
> ...



Classics. I'm hoping Defilade will chip in here.


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## Aestuo (Mar 21, 2009)

A paradox is my favorite weapon.  There is nothing like scrambling the brains of your enemies and sending them into comas.   X3

On a more physical and serious note, I would have to say that my favorite weapons lie within their own categories.  Each category has its usefulness in specific situations.  Since there are too many categories and almost an infinite number of possible scenarios, I will attempt to generalize what my preferences tend to be.

I tend to prefer stealth, long range, and efficiency over power and destructive force -  silent, seclusive, and hidden just out of sight with just enough power to do the job, no more, no less.

Of course, my preferences have been subject to change when applicable.  Here a few example scenarios:

*Zombie Apocalypse* - A shotgun with an assortment of different ammo types should serve me well
*Medieval* - Melee: long sword, Ranged: long bow, Siege: trebuchet
*Futuristic* - Railguns and anti-matter:  Nothing like hurling a bolt of anti-matter at your enemies by using nothing more than a few strong magnets

Like I said before, it depends upon the entirety of the situation and what weapons and technologies are available.  I would have to say, though, that my favorite scenario is medieval.  The weapons and combat had a certain unique feel to them that no other scenario has been able to match.  That is about it for me on weapons, though.

[EDIT]  However, if not medieval, I would choose zombie apocalypse as my second choice.  I am not sure what it is, but killing zombies just has a certain thrill to it.  X3

On a similar note, medieval zombie apocalypse would be entertaining.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Not A Fox said:


> words


Hey, I called attention to it first.
xD


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## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Well that's a better argument there; you like the weapon because it is of significance to your country.


 
Makes you wonder why they never switch over to something better.



			
				Not A Fox said:
			
		

> words


 
You made me lulz. You win a cookie.


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## vivatheshadows (Mar 21, 2009)

i gotta say an AK-47, the best Assault Rifle to have ever been produced. But I would LOVE to have an old Thompson M1A1 Sub Machine gun as well as a Browning Automatic Rifle.


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## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

This thread can apply to vehicle mounted weapons, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8

Nom nom nom! Tank buster!


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## Kuzooma1 (Mar 21, 2009)

I would like a double headed chainsaw. I know that dose not excite (yet), but ever I played the game Mad World the idea of cut down my enemies with a over grown gardener tool seems like a cool idea.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> Makes you wonder why they never switch over to something better.


It's because the US wants a weapon that's 200% better than the M16 and M4, no literally that's what they requested a weapon 200% better in every possible way, and be cheap.

The OICW was a byproduct of a weapon attempting this 200% goal, and clearly it failed in many ways because it was too damn large and heavy.
The M8 is another byproduct, a failure; the SCAR is like the M8 but is succeeded, currently the SCAR is undergoing use by SOCOM forces as a replacement for the M4/M16's.

The M468 is another weapon, designed by Barrett, that's possibly replacing the M16/M4; the M4688 uses the same lower receiver as the AR-15 rifles, so it's familiar and comes apart exactly like them, is cleaned the same way, and etc while having the upper parts modified to take the 6.8 caliber round which (basically) has the accuracy and range of the 5.56 with the stopping power and penetration of the 7.62. The M468 also has a rail integrated system and flip-up iron sights. It also comes standard with the ability to use a suppressor as well it's smaller, lighter, more powerful, more accurate, more reliable, less heat issues, much less jamming issues, better safety, folding stock, muzzle break/flash suppressor built in. It's, in my opinion, the next super-weapon.

M468 (image)

There's a bunch of other weapons as well, even an AK remake that was testing for possible use by the US.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> This thread can apply to vehicle mounted weapons, right?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8
> 
> Nom nom nom! Tank buster!


That's not a vehicle mounted weapon, the vehicle is accessory, it's what's being mounted to the weapon; without the GAU-8 that plane would have never been built.


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## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> It's because the US wants a weapon that's 200% better than the M16 and M4, no literally that's what they requested a weapon 200% better in every possible way, and be cheap.
> 
> The OICW was a byproduct of a weapon attempting this 200% goal, and clearly it failed in many ways because it was too damn large and heavy.
> The M8 is another byproduct, a failure; the SCAR is like the M8 but is succeeded, currently the SCAR is undergoing use by SOCOM forces as a replacement for the M4/M16's.
> ...


 
They seem to have a much easier job finding aircraft and vehicles that can outperform the older aircraft. If only weapons were to be that easy, I guess. Hopefully one day the M16 can finally be put to rest (as in being sold off to some random foreign country). Oh yes, what is with the M4A1 (the automatic version, I believe) being issued to the United States Army Special Forces but not the the regular army? Is there any specific reason as to why they use it?



			
				NewfDraggie said:
			
		

> That's not a vehicle mounted weapon, the vehicle is accessory, it's what's being mounted to the weapon; without the GAU-8 that plane would have never been built.


 
Right right, I'm pretty bad with words. 

Oh and another question for you. Is there any other aircraft using the GAU-8? Something that ain't the A-10?


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## Smelge (Mar 21, 2009)

RPCL - Rocket Propelled Chainsaw Launcher.

Self guided chainsaws that are able to home in on a target and remove parts of the target. These babies will make all wars pointless.


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## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> They seem to have a much easier job finding aircraft and vehicles that can outperform the older aircraft. If only weapons were to be that easy, I guess.


Well actually... the F35 which is replacing the A10 Thunderbolt II, the F22, the F18, and the Harrier Jump Jet is a low cost, low speed, low armor, stealth (crappy RAM), crappy avionics, crappy maneuverability, etc etc etc...

Basically, it's a REALLY cheap plane and can deliver specific ordinance to target, but can't beat anything modern in a dogfight, nor is it fast or carrying a large payload. It's a piece of shit that's cheap and that's why Canada, the US, and Britain want it; it's cheap.

There's currently three models:
* F-35A, conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant.
* F-35B, short-takeoff and vertical-landing (STOVL) variant.
* F-35C, carrier-based (CV) variant.

It's a pile of trash, I would rather a single A10 for ground support instead of five of these things.



Lulian said:


> Hopefully one day the M16 can finally be put to rest (as in being sold off to some random foreign country). Oh yes, what is with the M4A1 (the automatic version, I believe) being issued to the United States Army Special Forces but not the the regular army? Is there any specific reason as to why they use it?


Well they get it too, not just any division in SOCOM; but honestly they don't need it, it's better for indoors and actual encounters, normal military pull out when there's hostile force to call in special divisions to take care of the enemy, normal military is more guard and patrol, not engage and assault so they don't need anything other than an accurate rifle.


Lulian said:


> Right right, I'm pretty bad with words.


;3


Lulian said:


> Oh and another question for you. Is there any other aircraft using the GAU-8? Something that ain't the A-10?


Metal Gear Rex.
But seriously, no; the A10 Thunderbolt II is the only thing that has the GAU-8 Avenger Gatling-Gun. They should place it on a tank in my opinion, shorten the barrels (because they don't need the range on the ground) and strap two of them anti-aircraft style and you have a all-purpose everything killer with armor, kind of like Metal Gear Rex on tracks.


----------



## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

The United States likely wants that cheap fat piece of crap since well...no money to afford the shiny stuff.

The GAU-8 produces a LOT of recoil. I wonder how a tank would handle it...but then again, an Abrams is like what? 62 tons? The turret likely weights more then the GAU-8.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> The United States likely wants that cheap fat piece of crap since well...no money to afford the shiny stuff.
> 
> The GAU-8 produces a LOT of recoil. I wonder how a tank would handle it...but then again, an Abrams is like what? 62 tons? The turret likely weights more then the GAU-8.



The A10 doesn't weight that much, the recoil the GAU-8 produces isn't that much, it's a lot for a bullet firing weapon, but it could be mounted on a tank no problem even two could be.


----------



## Lulian (Mar 21, 2009)

Is the recoil of the GAU-8 comparable to other bullet firing weapons?


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 21, 2009)

Lulian said:


> Is the recoil of the GAU-8 comparable to other bullet firing weapons?


Anti-aircraft weapons I guess, I've never felt a GAU-8 firing, but the plane isn't that heavy and I've seen them fire stationary without the plane moving (it's a myth that the recoil slows the plane, too). If the A10 can do it, a tank can; tanks can't fly.

But the recoil on a tank is one big shell every few seconds, instead of a constant burst of large bullets on a GAU-8; I would probably say the recoil would be similar to that of a m61 or m134 compared to a M2hb .50. It's a more, but not noticeable when mounted on a truck.


----------



## Not A Fox (Mar 21, 2009)

Also: De Lisle

integrally silenced Enfield Carbine firing .45 caliber rounds subsonic?

Fuck

Yes


----------



## T.Y. (Mar 21, 2009)

Gun
Heatseaker
Heatseeker Single
The power of Angus Young
Ladder
Chair
Table
burning table
Sludgehammer
Sword
the fists of fury
Heatbutting
Pepper Spray
Paddle
Bombs
My cock
Glass
Broken Glass
Kicking
Cell Phone battery

i might think of more soon.


----------



## Irreverent (Mar 21, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Anti-aircraft weapons I guess, I've never felt a GAU-8 firing, but the plane isn't that heavy and I've seen them fire stationary without the plane moving (it's a myth that the recoil slows the plane, too). If the A10 can do it, a tank can; tanks can't fly.



Yeesh.  My external ballistics on cannon shells is rusty.  Not sure that the 30mm DU round has enough inertia fired from a stand still to penetrate all type of armor.  The round has the inertia of the plane its flying in, the vectors are additive.

For fixed base cannon, they'd probably have to cook the chemical composition of the round to get similar velocities.


----------



## lobosabio (Mar 21, 2009)

My typewriter.

Failing that, a trebuchet.  Stone them into submission!


----------



## Roose Hurro (Mar 22, 2009)

Wildberry Blue said:


> Yeah, I got that.
> 
> It's just that everybody and his grandpa idolizes the katana like they're forged by God himself. Just once I'd like to see an invincible badass with a rapier or broadsword or dao or literally *any other kind of sword*.



How about two of these?...  http://www.sitemason.com/files/kSwOEE/528a kukri.jpg




KazukiFerret said:


> The Desert Eagle is a good enough semiauto pistol and it's one of the few that can even manage to survive cycling rounds typically used in revolvers (IE the .357 and .44 Magnum) but since it has such a heavy slide that jerks back when it is fired in addition to the force of the recoil itself the gun can be neigh uncontrollable especially in .50AE and because of the extreme force the gun is subject to the parts tend to wear out quicker than say those in a Beretta M92FS 9mm. Desert Eagles are also quiet heavy, somewhere around five pounds unloaded and they use very large bullets (*a .357 magnum round is about twice the length of a 9x19mm*) so they're unweildy and they fire fairly slow and because they fire rimmed cartridges they tend to jam a lot more than I personally would like with a combat pistol.
> 
> They are very accurate pistols and they are firing very powerful rounds that have muzzle energies on par with most assault rifle's but they have a very low magazine capacity and are overall more of a hunting pistol than a combat pistol.
> 
> It'd do the job, not as competiently as a Glock 17 or a Colt 1911a1 but they'll kill what their bullets hit. But I wouldn't choose one considering for the space and weight that the Desert Eagle and its ammo take up I could carry both the Glock and the Colt.



.357 Magnum...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm) 
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm) 
Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm) 
Rim diameter .440 in (11.2 mm) 
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm) 
Case length 1.29 in (33 mm) 
Overall length *1.59 in* (40 mm) 


9mm...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

Bullet diameter 9.03 mm (0.356 in) 
Neck diameter 9.65 mm (0.380 in) 
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in) 
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in) 
Rim thickness 0.90 mm (0.035 in) 
Case length 19.15 mm (0.754 in) 
Overall length 29.69 mm (*1.169 in*) 


Here's your Desert Eagle specs:

http://www.magnumresearch.com/desert_eagle_techdata.asp

According to the specs, the heaviest DE only weighs 4.4625 pounds, not five.




Tycho Rass said:


> I have one of those.



How do you like yours...?


----------



## Devious Bane (Mar 22, 2009)

The calculator! Just hit" 1 / 0 "and prepare for the worst!


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 22, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> Yeesh.  My external ballistics on cannon shells is rusty.  Not sure that the 30mm DU round has enough inertia fired from a stand still to penetrate all type of armor.  The round has the inertia of the plane its flying in, the vectors are additive.
> 
> For fixed base cannon, they'd probably have to cook the chemical composition of the round to get similar velocities.



That's not a noticeable difference, though.
It will still tear through armor with its 30 x 173mm Depleted Uranium - Armor Piercing Incendiary rounds. I don't think Abrams DU armor can withstand more than a second of fire, which is 70 rounds (140 with dual GAU-8's as I suggested)


----------



## Roose Hurro (Mar 22, 2009)

I wanna get hold of one of these, someday:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/K31swissrifle.JPG

More:

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar107.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXGRloHuOIw


----------



## Bambi (Mar 22, 2009)

Any weapon that's extremely easy to use.

If you can get me using the thing pretty effectively in under five minutes, I'll call it my favorite. I've got no preferences, except to performance.


----------



## Kitsune (Mar 22, 2009)

jcfynx said:


> Why do we need weapons? I don't like fighting...


cause the human race is so insecure we need weapons to protect ourselves from other humans and other potential "threats"


----------



## Irreverent (Mar 22, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> That's not a noticeable difference, though.
> It will still tear through armor with its 30 x 173mm Depleted Uranium - Armor Piercing Incendiary rounds. I don't think Abrams DU armor can withstand more than a second of fire, which is 70 rounds (140 with dual GAU-8's as I suggested)



True, I was thinking about a single round sniper, like the PTSH.  High volume of fire would increase the effect.


Roose Hurro said:


> I wanna get hold of one of these, someday:
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/K31swissrifle.JPG



The K31 is a sweet rifle!  While i prefer 6.5x55, the 7.5x55 is great out to 300 meters, and required for DCRA Swiss Rifle Club shoots.  This guy has some if you're looking Roose.


----------



## Archy (Mar 22, 2009)

Tazers are awesome


----------



## Seas (Mar 22, 2009)

Werevixen said:


> Fabrique Nationale P90, because it is the single most efficient one-handed automatic weapon currently in existance.



The Mp7a1 Is lighter, more compact , has a faster rate of fire, and has better armor penetration capabilities


----------



## Kangamutt (Mar 22, 2009)

Devious Bane said:


> The calculator! Just hit" 1 / 0 "and prepare for the worst!



^This.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 22, 2009)

Seastalker said:


> The Mp7a1 Is lighter, more compact , has a faster rate of fire, and has better armor penetration capabilities



More compact, yes; faster rate of fire, weight, and armor penetration goes to the FNP90.
The P90 is a vastly superior weapon in every way except accuracy and stopping power, but with so many rounds at such rate of fire that doesn't matter.

Neither are one handed, they can be fired with one hand, but with the right person so can almost any firearm; they have the ability to be held with two hands for a reason.


----------



## vivatheshadows (Mar 22, 2009)

lobosabio said:


> My typewriter.



Your Typewriter? your CHICAGO Typewriter?


----------



## Irreverent (Mar 22, 2009)

vivatheshadows said:


> Your Typewriter? your CHICAGO Typewriter?



Heh.  As a matter of fact, _I am_ still an artist with the Thompson.


----------



## Yorokonde2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Lets see... I prefer the odd and unusual weapons for my written characters. Bayonets (Go Anderson!) as a hand held weapon, razors (the old fashioned, flip out shaving kind), pencils or pens... that kinda stuff. I'm also a major fan of improvised weapons (chairs and the like) and a few select others. The crowbar is quite awesome as both a tool and a weapon for zombie survival scenarios.


----------



## Adelio Altomar (Mar 22, 2009)

A nice pair of tanfas and my bare fists and feet. =3

Oh, and my shoulders, too!


----------



## Tryp (Mar 22, 2009)

Machete


----------



## DJ BassLion (Mar 23, 2009)

i think this answers your question =3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLJ6hwsq624


----------



## Rapscallion (Mar 23, 2009)

Gauntlet claw
Bow and arrow
Katar/punch dagger. Like, ever seen a jamadhar?


----------



## Tycho Rass (Mar 23, 2009)

Kitsune said:


> cause the human race is so insecure we need weapons to protect ourselves from other humans and other potential "threats"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaS2bRGS86c&feature=related


----------



## Lulian (Mar 23, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaS2bRGS86c&feature=related


 
Instant win.


----------



## Attaman (Mar 23, 2009)

Technically, we don't need anything more than a spear when dealing with non-humans smaller than a giraffe or elephant.  There are instances of a fit man taking on a fit lion one-on-one with nothing but a spear and not only _winning_, but _killing_ the thing too.

The need for better weapons is only to make such a job easier and because we kept building protective armors better than the weapons we had.  What use is a spear for fighting another man if you can't kill him with it?  Are the two of you just going to sit there clubbing each other for a day, go "Good showing chap," then go off for dinner and talk to your respective spouses of how you got your bruises that day?


Kitsune said:


> cause the human race is so insecure we need weapons to protect ourselves from other humans and other potential "threats"


So animals with natural weapons are naturally insecure?


----------



## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 23, 2009)

Favorite weapons? Let's see....
- Tulwar
- Liuyedao
- Heckler & Koch MP5
- DWM-P08
- Khukri


----------



## FireFoxZero (Mar 23, 2009)

Stuff that exists and some stuff that doesn't.

Ka-bar combat knife
Dragnov Sniper rifle (Or the Barret 98 )
H&K G3 SAS
H&K G36c w. Carry handle w. built in 2x zoom scope.
Standard Frag
Fully Automatic Morita ( Starship Troopers ultimate badass weapon)
M249
and a Latin Machete.

optional: Big Friggin Robot.


----------



## Taasla (Mar 23, 2009)

A saber and/or fencing foil.

I really miss fencing.  :C


----------



## The Grey One (Mar 23, 2009)

My fave weapon? Probably the one my main character has in my story "Fast Rope"; SOCOM M4A1 carbine with silencer, tactical scope and M203 grenade launcher


----------



## MelaCeroses (Mar 23, 2009)

Aden said:


> Didn't we have a thread like this already? Or four?



Or four DOZEN?

I would have to take the zero-point energy field manipulator.  You're a pansy if you call it the gravity gun.

IRL though, I think the beauty that is a Molotov cannot be overstated.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 23, 2009)

The Grey One said:


> My fave weapon? Probably the one my main character has in my story "Fast Rope"; SOCOM M4A1 carbine with silencer, tactical scope and M203 grenade launcher



What's a SOCOM M4A1? You mean a M4 with SOPMODs?


----------



## Irreverent (Mar 23, 2009)

Taasla said:


> A saber and/or fencing foil.
> 
> I really miss fencing.  :C



Me too...that's why I started Foil fencing again!


----------



## X (Mar 23, 2009)

HK g3.
m14 with synthetic stock and pistol grip.
katana
fn2000 with grenade launcher and top mount red dot/scope.
telekinesis
knives (no faves yet)
portal gun.


----------



## Sam (Mar 23, 2009)

Pimp Cane/Staff. (Those can do some damage.)
Katana
Dragonov
Lightsaber (who wouldn't want one?)
Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee, epic duo. They aren't people, just weapons. That and Bruce Lee can pull off a mustache pretty well.


----------



## Seas (Mar 23, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> More compact, yes; faster rate of fire, weight, and armor penetration goes to the FNP90.
> The P90 is a vastly superior weapon in every way except accuracy and stopping power, but with so many rounds at such rate of fire that doesn't matter.
> 
> Neither are one handed, they can be fired with one hand, but with the right person so can almost any firearm; they have the ability to be held with two hands for a reason.



I didn't really reply to the one-handed use as yes they can be both be used one-handed too, although that is not their purpose, it is still more possible to do that with let's say an assault rifle.

For the other parts:  From where do you get those exactly...?

FN P90
Weight: 2.54 kg empty
Rate of fire: 900 rounds per minute
HK Mp7a1
Weight: 1.5 kg empty
Rate of fire: 950 rounds per minute

You can see it at these sites for example:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg49-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm

The p90 is MUCH heavier, the Mp7 has a faster rate of fire on all documentations and sites I have seen so far.
And actually, the stopping power goes to the p90 because of the larger, heavier bullet and only slightly lower muzzle velocity.
Jut to make things clear...


----------



## Aestuo (Mar 23, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> Me too...that's why I started Foil fencing again!



Fencing is such an elegant and noble sport, and it takes a lot of skill to become good at it.  I am thinking about taking it up myself.

Meeting your opponent face-to-face is so much different than shooting him from afar.  X3


----------



## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

I'd have to say my Mosin-Nagant m91/30. It's better than any gun that's been posted so far. I can use mine as an oar.


----------



## Taasla (Mar 24, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> Me too...that's why I started Foil fencing again!



Oh, you're so lucky.  I took it for a year in college, and I can't find any local teachers.

While I was taking it, my roomie was too.  She and I would spar in our apartment.  X)


----------



## Kanin (Mar 24, 2009)

Sword and Bowie Knife (Blade wise)
Rifle and pistol (gun wise)


----------



## TayoftheDead (Mar 24, 2009)

My WASR 10/63, she shoots straight and that's all I could ask for...well...maybe more ammo


----------



## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

sure is awfully /k/ in here.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

Seastalker said:


> I didn't really reply to the one-handed use as yes they can be both be used one-handed too, although that is not their purpose, it is still more possible to do that with let's say an assault rifle.
> 
> For the other parts:  From where do you get those exactly...?
> 
> ...


Well it is true, but with a FNP90 I can put more rounds down range with 900rpm and a 50 round mag than you can with your 20 round mag at 950. Loaded they're more comparable though the MP7 also has a red-dot sight you'd want on it, where the P90 has that stock as well other features such as longer barrel. Basically, comparing the two not just empty and with more information on what's on the weapon you will get a different story. Fully loaded though the P90 does have more than double the firing capacity, which in CQB I'd want in every possible encounter more than weight, I don't need to dual wield.

Also, you're wrong about the bullets being lighter by a lot, the MP7's round is a 4.6x30mm 2.0 g DM11 Penetrator, the FNP90's round is a 5.7x28mm 2.1 g SS190 AP FMJ it's 0.1 gram in the difference with more accuracy and armor penetration. The Mp7 doesn't have the same armor penetration so it has a greater stopping power in my opinion.


----------



## WolvesSoulZ (Mar 24, 2009)

In firearms -> Ak47 & Mp5a5 & L96
Sword -> Two handed sword


----------



## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Well it is true, but with a FNP90 I can put more rounds down range with 900rpm and a 50 round mag than you can with your 20 round mag at 950. Loaded they're more comparable though the MP7 also has a red-dot sight you'd want on it, where the P90 has that stock as well other features such as longer barrel. Basically, comparing the two not just empty and with more information on what's on the weapon you will get a different story. Fully loaded though the P90 does have more than double the firing capacity, which in CQB I'd want in every possible encounter more than weight, I don't need to dual wield.
> 
> Also, you're wrong about the bullets being lighter by a lot, the MP7's round is a 4.6x30mm 2.0 g DM11 Penetrator, the FNP90's round is a 5.7x28mm 2.1 g SS190 AP FMJ it's 0.1 gram in the difference with more accuracy and armor penetration. The Mp7 doesn't have the same armor penetration so it has a greater stopping power in my opinion.




Or, you know, you could use a real gun, like an AKM. If you're that concerned about CQB, use an automatic shotgun, one that's affordable, like a Saiga-12.


----------



## FireFoxZero (Mar 24, 2009)

I think we all should recognize the true king of shotguns. The AA-12, who doesn't want a Fully automatic Shotgun in their inventory? It can fire slug and frag rounds, its like they combined the Thompson M1 with a Shotgun. The sheer destruction it can cause is amazing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn02le8e0nQ


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> Or, you know, you could use a real gun, like an AKM. If you're that concerned about CQB, use an automatic shotgun, one that's affordable, like a Saiga-12.



Do you honestly think a shotgun is good in modern CQB? If so, I don't intend on listening to any more advise by you. The weakest of modern day armor can stop any shotgun shell, the FNP90 has very good armor piercing rounds.
And AKM isn't any more of a real weapon than a P90 is, either. Does it have to weigh a ton for you to consider it worth using? I'd like to see you accurately shoot that weapon indoors and hit the target.


----------



## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Do you honestly think a shotgun is good in modern CQB? If so, I don't intend on listening to any more advise by you. The weakest of modern day armor can stop any shotgun shell, the FNP90 has very good armor piercing rounds.
> And AKM isn't any more of a real weapon than a P90 is, either. Does it have to weigh a ton for you to consider it worth using? I'd like to see you accurately shoot that weapon indoors and hit the target.




Pssh, have you heard of SABOT shells before? Even a slug will punch through most modern armor. I'm not talking about running around with 00 buckshot. 

The AKM, or any assault rifle, for that matter, can be extremely effective at close quarters. I wouldn't use a longer assault rifle like an FN FAL, simply because it'd be too easy to reveal your position. 

Also, have you even *held* an AKM before? They're incredibly lightweight weapons. Maybe you've been playing too much COD4.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> Pssh, have you heard of SABOT shells before? Even a slug will punch through most modern armor. I'm not talking about running around with 00 buckshot.
> 
> The AKM, or any assault rifle, for that matter, can be extremely effective at close quarters. I wouldn't use a longer assault rifle like an FN FAL, simply because it'd be too easy to reveal your position.
> 
> Also, have you even *held* an AKM before? They're incredibly lightweight weapons. Maybe you've been playing too much COD4.



Nope, a slug will not penetrate through modern armor and even if you're going against lesser armor it's the equivalant of firing a semi-rifle indoors, a SMG will still win.
An SMG will always dominate in close quarters, if you think otherwise you're not allowed to give firearm advice, ever. The AKM is a modern AK47, it's still long and heavy compared to any SMG.

I've seen a AKM, never held one myself, but also COD4 doesn't even have them in the entire game; I've fired many assault weapons and hands down most SMG's will beat them all indoors, the P90, MP7, and others in the same class are better than any Avtomat assault rifle.


----------



## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Nope, a slug will not penetrate through modern armor.
> An SMG will always dominate in close quarters, if you think otherwise you're not allowed to give firearm advice, ever. The AKM is a modern AK47, it's still long and heavy compared to any SMG.




What modern armor are you referring to? Ceramic, or flak, or kevlar?

Sabot shells will crack ceramic and slide through kevlar like butter. 

Sure, an AKM is heavy compared to an SMG, but 4.7 can't penetrate brick or concrete at a 45 degree angle. 7.62x39 will punch through that and the wall behind it. 

SMGs are advantagous in situations where you don't want overpenetration-- for example, if you're in a crowded urban center and you don't necessarily want to kill the family next door. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the AKM or AKMS in close quarters.

In close quarters, you're rarely looking directly down the sights in the first place. Most of your shot placement is going to be done using your upper torso. 

One more random point/thought. US forces generally use their M16s or M9s to clear rooms. It all comes down to tactics.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> What modern armor are you referring to? Ceramic, or flak, or kevlar?
> 
> Sabot shells will crack ceramic and slide through kevlar like butter.
> 
> ...


Woah woah woah...
You've had no training and I'm guessing you've never fired many weapons. You always look down your sights with your weapon ready in any combat situation, firing using your torso is a no no at all times.

US forces use M4's in rooms more than anything, which is a light assault rifle.
SWAT also use M4's and pistols, and SMG's in breaching, but that's because they need to have all possibilities covered. If you're in a building for defense a SMG is your best bet, same with assaulting. It's true that a 7.62x29 can punch through harder things, but that's not what you want; you want many rounds, pinpoint accuracy, and mobility.

Also show me these sources on those sabot slugs, lets see some facts here.
I'm doubting they will harm ceramic at all, modern armor isn't flak so they could get through those, and kevlar I'm guessing it won't get through at all.


----------



## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Woah woah woah...
> You've had no training and I'm guessing you've never fired many weapons. You always look down your sights with your weapon ready in any combat situation, firing using your torso is a no no at all times.
> 
> US forces use M4's in rooms more than anything, which is a light assault rifle.
> ...



I've fired plenty of weapons, and while I haven't had any training, you clearly haven't heard of point shooting before, so I'd assume that your training is limited. 

Here's a description of a civilian training course using point shooting.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...g/10224-point-shooting-home-study-course.html

Initial combat situations in the last gulf war involved the use of M16 rifles against insurgents. Have fun shooting at insurgents who, more often then not, are sitting behind sandbags or heavy mortar walls. M4s are great, I'd take an M4 over an AKM, but M4s are quite expensive and their range suffers from their shorter barrel. 

 Armor isn't made entirely out of ceramic. When you do have ceramic, you have kevlar, and ceramic plates over vitals. 

Here's the patent for sabot shells, search armor-piercing. Sabot shells have a huge amount of energy, and they'd crack ceramic easily. Regular slugs won't defeat soft body armor, so I wouldn't even consider it.

Now, the SMG is great, and in CQB, sure, I'd love one. They're just nearly impossible to get a hold of, unless you have a class 3 license. So, for CQB, why  not a sabot-loaded shotgun? 

Besides- you hit anyone with 00 buckshot, and they're hitting the ground. Take them out with a follow up shot, and it's over.

Though, not to cop out- but I'd take an AR or AKM over a shotgun in CQB anyway.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> I've fired plenty of weapons, and while I haven't had any training, you clearly haven't heard of point shooting before, so I'd assume that your training is limited.


Your assumption is wrong.



bannik said:


> Initial combat situations in the last gulf war involved the use of M16 rifles against insurgents. Have fun shooting at insurgents who, more often then not, are sitting behind sandbags or heavy mortar walls. M4s are great, I'd take an M4 over an AKM, but M4s are quite expensive and their range suffers from their shorter barrel.


A 7.62x29mm round can't punch through a sandbag, either. The Gulf war was a flop, why use such a shitty example?
A 7.62 round is indeed more powerful, but indoors that won't do you so amazingly better, it's mobility and accuracy that will win indoors, we're not talking about outside on the streets here.



bannik said:


> Let me give you a short primer on modern armor. It isn't all ceramic. Generally you have kevlar, and ceramic plates over vitals.


Or no plates at all.



bannik said:


> Here's the patent for sabot shells, search armor-piercing. Sabot shells have a huge amount of energy, and they'd crack ceramic easily. Regular slugs won't defeat soft body armor, so I wouldn't even consider it.


Sabot just gives the round more muzzle velocity, it has no effect on the penitration power of the round, just its speed, and not by a lot either; it's more efficient because while traveling down the barrel the force behind it is solid until it exits the barrel and the sabot falls away, it makes it efficient but not a whole lot better. It won't give a round an ungodly amount of force, it will make the force it's receiving from the explosive pressure in the bullet more efficient. You might wish to look up what a sabot is.



bannik said:


> Now, the SMG is great, and in CQB, sure, I'd love one. They're just nearly impossible to get a hold of, unless you have a class 3 license. So, for CQB, why  not a sabot-loaded shotgun?


We're not talking about comparing it with what you can get or what's available, cut out anything like that and compare the weapons directly.



bannik said:


> Besides- you hit anyone with 00 buckshot, and they're hitting the ground. Take them out with a follow up shot, and it's over.


No. Bunckshot won't knock you down, don't listen to video-games. Bullets can't knock you back or down, if your armor stops the bullet you'll be fine. There's video of armor makers holding AK47's, shotguns, and handguns to themselves and pulling the trigger, shooting themselves to demonstrate the effectiveness of their armors in real-time. Now, 7.62x29mm proof armors are hard to get, but as for most handguns and almost all shotguns most cop kevlar vests will stop the rounds dead, and SWAT or military suits won't even be affected by them at all. Getting hit, you could still move and stand no problem.

Point shooting is moronic, it will get you killed in any real scenario. It's good if you're too stupid to have your weapon up, but that's about it; a fallback, or "just in case I'm not paying attention" method. You should always, always have your sights up and be ready, not holding it by your side like a moron missing the first shot or so. With a shotgun or rifle this is greater, even; with a single shot you want the first one to be dead on, not a guess (which is what you're talking about) this point shooting is only good for spraying, something a SMG does best.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Your assumption is wrong.



You must be trolling, then, since you refuse to concede that point.



NewfDraggie said:


> A 7.62x29mm round can't punch through a sandbag, either. The Gulf war was a flop, why use such a shitty example?
> A 7.62 round is indeed more powerful, but indoors that won't do you so amazingly better, it's mobility and accuracy that will win indoors, we're not talking about outside on the streets here.



You mean 7.62x39. And I was referring to the second gulf war. 4.7 won't punch through much of anything, and it certainly won't punch through brick. What are many of the houses in Iraq made out of? Brick and dense earth. Often insurgents will barricade themselves behind more brick, within a house, so you have to cope with that. 

Accuracy is a non-issue at this range. An AKM will get 2-3 inch groupings at 50 yards. The gun is always more accurate than the shooter.

Mobility is helpful, but less of an issue than you think. You  never, ever rush through a building, and an AKM suffices for room-to-room clearing work. 



NewfDraggie said:


> Or no plates at all.
> 
> 
> Sabot just gives the round more muzzle velocity, it has no effect on the penitration power of the round, just its speed, and not by a lot either; it's more efficient because while traveling down the barrel the force behind it is solid until it exits the barrel and the sabot falls away, it makes it efficient but not a whole lot better. It won't give a round an ungodly amount of force, it will make the force it's receiving from the explosive pressure in the bullet more efficient. You might wish to look up what a sabot is.



Lulz, maybe you should. There are armor-penetrating varieties of sabot shells out there. You're just making stuff up, instead of looking up data. I mean, you didn't even know the right chamber for an AKM, or how modern armor works, though you like to parade around as if you do. 




NewfDraggie said:


> We're not talking about comparing it with what you can get or what's available, cut out anything like that and compare the weapons directly.
> 
> No. Bunckshot won't knock you down, don't listen to video-games bullets can't knock you back or down, if your armor stops the bullet you'll be fine. There's video of armor makers holding AK47's, shotguns, and handguns to themselves and pulling the trigger, shooting themselves to demonstrate the effectiveness of their armors in real-time. Now, 7.62x29mm proof armors are hard to get, but as for most handguns and almost all shotguns most cop kevlar vests will stop the rounds dead, and SWAT or military suits won't even be affected by them at all. Getting hit, you could still move and stand no problem.



"7.62x29mm proof armors".. really? You're just talking out of your ass now. I'm done with you.


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> You must be trolling, then, since you refuse to concede that point.


I'm not going to brag about training, when more than likely you won't believe me anyways; it's stupid, pointless, and above all else a waste of my time and yours.



bannik said:


> You mean 7.62x39. And I was referring to the second gulf war. 4.7 won't punch through much of anything, and it certainly won't punch through brick. What are many of the houses in Iraq made out of? Brick and dense earth. Often insurgents will barricade themselves behind more brick, within a house, so you have to cope with that.


No, I mean 7.62x29 because it's on the weaker end of the 7.62 lineup, I could mention x54 or x39, or others but I'm using the weakest on the 7.62 scale that Avtomat's use.
Why do you need it to punch through brick for one, and yeah a 5.7 round *(yeah, it's not 4.7 but 5.7)* can punch through brick and plaster no problem with that many rounds at that fire rate, a shotgun simply can't do anything unless it's against an unarmored target in full view.

Why do you think SWAT and soldiers don't use a Avtomat in close quarters, and why do you think SMG's exist? For looks? It's like you're arguing that these weapons don't do their intended jobs that have been proven to work at doing, and do it very well.



bannik said:


> Accuracy is a non-issue at this range. An AKM will get 2-3 inch groupings at 50 yards. The gun is always more accurate than the shooter.


What? It is so an issue, you want pinpoint precision, mobility (able to snap to targets quickly) and give them a hail of rounds without having to worry about it not hitting; I don't mean accuracy that way, I meant the less accuracy a SMG has.



bannik said:


> Mobility is helpful, but less of an issue than you think. You  never, ever rush through a building, and an AKM suffices for room-to-room clearing work.


It's more of an issue than you think.



bannik said:


> Lulz, maybe you should. There are armor-penetrating varieties of sabot shells out there. You're just making stuff up, instead of looking up data. I mean, you didn't even know the right chamber for an AKM, or how modern armor works, though you like to parade around as if you do.


It takes less than five seconds to know the chamber of any weapon, don't act as if you actually know anything; I used 7.62x29mm and already gave the reason why, 7.62x54, 39, 51mm and etc are all other rounds all together.
A sabot doesn't make it armor piercing. It's a sheath around the round, it doesn't make a bullet more armor piercing or more deadly, if anything it simply makes it better by a few percent in accuracy and range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Sabot_types.svg
See, it doesn't affect the actual projectile's capabilities directly, it does not modify the bullet but the casing around it to make it tighter, a better fit inside the barrel and when fired it allows less loss of force through gaps down the length of the barrel.



bannik said:


> "7.62x29mm proof armors".. really? You're just talking out of your ass now. I'm done with you.


Yeah, dragonskin can stop 7.62x29, 39, and 54mm rounds no problem. And on random instance can stop a 12.7x99mm round. Run away little /k/ommando, that board is filled with people that don't actually know anything.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

"don't act as if you actually know anything"

God, getting a little personal, aren't we? For someone who's a guru of guns, it's awfully funny that you don't know that 7.62x29 DOESN'T EXIST. Maybe you're thinking of 7.62x25, which is still a moot point, since 7.62x25 is a nasty round used in russian SMGs, which is a whole other shitstorm.

"Yeah, dragonskin can stop 7.62x29, 39, and 54mm rounds no problem. And on random instance can stop a 12.7x99mm round. Run away little /k/ommando, that board is filled with people that don't actually know anything."

Once again, you're being fairly nasty. But that aside, when do you actually expect armies to begin fielding dragonskin? It's prohibitively expensive. So. There you are. Never, probably.

"A sabot doesn't make it armor piercing. It's a sheath around the round, it doesn't make a bullet more armor piercing or more deadly, if anything it simply makes it better by a few percent in accuracy and range."

This is what you get for using wikipedia as a source. From globalsecurity.org:
*QB 8* - 8 pellets (Armor Piercing) - Quadrangle Buck is made from a steel cylinder cut into two layers of four pie-shaped pieces per layer. The numerous sharp edges gives excellent penetration; however, the light weight and poor ballistic shape limits its effective range. The Quadrangle Slug (12 gauge shotgun only) is a revolutionary slug designed as a nonexplosive fragmenting munition intended specifically as an anti-vehicle or anti-material slug. It is capable of disabling automobiles, light aircraft, and marine vessels. This is due to eight pie-shaped hardened steel pellets wrapped in a cylindrical plastic boot (to protect the bore of the shotgun). *Flechettes *- 32 flechettes (Armor Piercing) - Flechettes are essentially small steel nails with tiny fins swaged into the rear. *Slug - *Slugs will pretty well flatten any target, armored or not; however, the issue of over penetration will determine whether you want to take the solid or the hollow-point slug.

[FONT=&quot]Of course SMGs are made for a specific purpose. But they aren't the greatest weapon of all time for CQB. They're undeniably effective. But you need different weapons for different purposes. Any SMG is less suited for breaching than a shotgun. Any assault rifle is better suited for penetration and cover denial. 

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]CQB isn't as easily summed up in "SMGs are teh best!", I guess is what I'm trying to say. You might want a shotgun for breaching. You might want a rifle carbine for penetration, which, if you're actually assaulting a position, you definitely want. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]. If you want a round that will penetrate anything and still be portable, 7.62x39 is hard to beat. 

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]So, given the circumstances, I'm sorry for riling you up, and I'll try to be more civil.. which you should, too. Don't assume that I haven't fired guns before, and I won't assume that you're just talking out of your ass.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 
 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> "don't act as if you actually know anything"
> 
> God, getting a little personal, aren't we? For someone who's a guru of guns, it's awfully funny that you don't know that 7.62x29 DOESN'T EXIST. Maybe you're thinking of 7.62x25, which is still a moot point, since 7.62x25 is a nasty round used in russian SMGs, which is a whole other shitstorm.


Nice, a simple google search proves you wrong.
The SKS can fire 7.62x29mm as can several Avotomats which can be chambered in that round, though I have no idea why. A Ruger model can use that round, can't remember which one, it's more a SMG round, but it does exist.
I don't see how that's personal? You acted as if you knew more than I did, and anything you apparently know is google based.



bannik said:


> Once again, you're being fairly nasty. But that aside, when do you actually expect armies to begin fielding a dragonskin? It's prohibitively expensive. So. There you are. Never, probably.


No, but it can, and that was my point. And again, stop taking the interwebz so personally, I apologize.



bannik said:


> This is what you get for using wikipedia as a source. From globalsecurity.org:
> *QB 8* - 8 pellets (Armor Piercing) - Quadrangle Buck is made from a steel cylinder cut into two layers of four pie-shaped pieces per layer. The numerous sharp edges gives excellent penetration; however, the light weight and poor ballistic shape limits its effective range. The Quadrangle Slug (12 gauge shotgun only) is a revolutionary slug designed as a nonexplosive fragmenting munition intended specifically as an anti-vehicle or anti-material slug. It is capable of disabling automobiles, light aircraft, and marine vessels. This is due to eight pie-shaped hardened steel pellets wrapped in a cylindrical plastic boot (to protect the bore of the shotgun). *Flechettes *- 32 flechettes (Armor Piercing) - Flechettes are essentially small steel nails with tiny fins swaged into the rear. *Slug - *Slugs will pretty well flatten any target, armored or not; however, the issue of over penetration will determine whether you want to take the solid or the hollow-point slug.


How is that about a sabot again? How does that prove a sabot isn't simply a casing around a round and after it exits the barrel has no more effect (except in the case of the bullet BEING the sabot, like a SLAP round but they're in 7.62x51mm and 12.7x99mm only.

In this case, Wikipedia nailed sabot (in projectiles) dead on. What you're quoting there makes no sense in a argument about sabots. 

An armor piercing chunk of metal, non-explosive fragmenting munition designed for anti-vehicle or anti-material...that's a bit much, I doubt those are easy to get and are not standard on any shotgun, and are not standard slugs either. If we go to non-standard munitions I can link some API (armor piercing incendiary) rounds for you. The 4.6 and 5.7 AP round for the MP7 and FNP90 are standard.

Flechette rounds make it more accurate more than anything, they're garbage but they can punch through some armors, not all and not effectively. And the same thing can be said about a slug, little range and not overly accurate compared to a rifle, little armor penetration. It's a CHUNK of metal, usually.



bannik said:


> Of course SMGs are made for a specific purpose. But they aren't the greatest weapon of all time for CQB. They're undeniably effective. But you need different weapons for different purposes. Any SMG is less suited for breaching than a shotgun. Any assault rifle is better suited for penetration and cover denial.


They don't use shotguns for breaching anymore. That says a lot. They use them to blow open a door, and that's the extent of their use in modern breaching and CQB. A SMG is always better, but a SMG serves little purpose on a battlefield so that's why they use M4's and other light assault weapons, to keep their effectiveness outside as well. A SWAT team will always use SMG's primarily when indoors, as will any defense contractors or security.
Because it's more effective than any shotgun in many ways.



bannik said:


> CQB isn't as easily summed up in "SMGs are teh best!", I guess is what I'm trying to say. You might want a shotgun for breaching. You might want a rifle carbine for penetration, which, if you're actually assaulting a position, you definitely want. If you want a round that will penetrate anything and still be portable, 7.62x39 is hard to beat.


No, you're right. It's not easily summed up that way, but in most CQB situations, indoors and breaching, a SMG is "teh best". Shotguns are -only- effective with direct sight to target, in close range, and the target being unarmored. This is the same with most pistols as well.
A large assault rifle or even light assault rifle won't beat a SMG in CQB, of course this depends on exactly what building or encounter, I stand my ground and easily say most, which is what matters.



bannik said:


> So, given the circumstances, I'm sorry for riling you up, and I'll try to be more civil.. which you should, too. Don't assume that I haven't fired guns before, and I won't assume that you're just talking out of your ass.


Deal.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

"The SKS can fire 7.62x29mm as can several Avotomats which can be chambered in that round, though I have no idea why"

That's funny, my SKS fires 7.62x39. Look for 7.62x29 on ammunition supply sites. I searched google, too. Hence my point about it being a common misnomer. The sites which come up with 7.62x29 are almost all either forum sites, or otherwise inaccurate.

"and anything you apparently know is google based." See? I'm fairly certain that I've demonstrated knowledge greater than what google can provide.. and since you can't discern accurate sites versus inaccurate sites, I'll show you an example of an accurate site.

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/ should provide us with the answer to our quandary.

So, we do an advanced search of the site, starting with 7.62x39.
7.62x39 site:http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/
We have plenty of hits, which shouldn't surprise us. 

Then, we try 7.62x25. Plenty of hits, once again. Which shouldn't surprise us.
7.62x25 site:http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/

Then we try 7.62x29. 
7.62x29 site:http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/
Your search - *7.62x29 site:http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/* - did not match any documents.


Amazing, no? Just for good measure, let's try 7.62x54, since romanian PSLs are based on the RPK/AKM action-
7.62x54 site:http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/
and we get hits. 

Therefore, with a little bit of research, we can fully state that 7.62x29 does not exist.

"How is that about a sabot again? How does that prove a sabot isn't simply a casing around a round and after it exits the barrel has no more effect (except in the case of the bullet BEING the sabot, like a SLAP round but they're in 7.62x51mm and 12.7x99mm only.
In this case, Wikipedia nailed sabot (in projectiles) dead on. What you're quoting there makes no sense. An armor piercing chunk of metal, non-explosive fragmenting munition designed for nti-vehicle or anti-material...that's a bit much, I doubt those are easy to get and are not standard on any shotgun, and are not standard slugs either. If we go to non-standard munitions I can link some API (armor piercing incendiary) rounds for you. The 4.6 and 5.7 AP round for the MP7 and FNP90 are standard.

Flechette rounds make it more accurate more than anything, they're garbage but they can punch through some armors, not all and not effectively. And the same thing can be said about a slug, little range and not overly accurate compared to a rifle, little armor penetration. It's a CHUNK of metal, usually."

The range on most slugs isn't *too* terribly bad, you can engage man-sized targets up to 80 yards or so.

I'd say that you have both fair and unfair statements here. Both flachette rounds and the antimaterial round they describe are actually sabot rounds, since they use a casing around, say, the flachettes, to propel them out of the barrel. Fair enough, that was a little unclear.

"They don't use shotguns for breaching anymore. That says a lot. They use them to blow open a door, and that's the extent of their use in modern breaching and CQB. A SMG is always better, but a SMG serves little purpose on a battlefield so that's why they use M4's and other light assault weapons, to keep their effectiveness outside as well. A SWAT team will always use SMG's primarily when indoors, as will any defense contractors or security.
Because it's more effective than any shotgun in many ways."

I don't know, I've seen video of modern swat teams using a shottie for close engagements. It's generally the first guy through the door.

"No, you're right. It's not easily summed up that way, but in most CQB situations, indoors and breaching, a SMG is "teh best". Shotguns are -only- effective with direct sight to target, in close range, and the target being unarmored. This is the same with most pistols as well.
A large assault rifle or even light assault rifle won't beat a SMG in CQB, of course this depends on exactly what building or encounter, I stand my ground and easily say most, which is what matters."

Fair enough.

Long argument was long, but we all learned something, and that's the important thing, right guys?


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

Uhm, 7.62x29mm does exists, it's rare but it does exist. It's a Tokarev round, a pistol round.
http://publicola.mu.nu/archives/2004/06/28/more_on_the_deadly_sks_used_in_alabama.html
Though apparently I'm wrong about AK rifles using it, then again you could chamber it if you wanted it.

The first guy through the door on SWAT usually has a M4 or A MP5 or equivalent, next to him it's somebody with a pistol. I've never seen a real breach with a shotgun as the first through the door, at least modern.

And technically 00 buck has a sabot around it but that doesn't make it a sabot round. Show me where the sabot has a direct impact on armor penetration.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Uhm, 7.62x29mm does exists, it's rare but it does exist.
> http://publicola.mu.nu/archives/2004/06/28/more_on_the_deadly_sks_used_in_alabama.html
> 
> The first guy through the door on SWAT usually has a M4 or A MP5 or equivalent, next to him it's somebody with a pistol. I've never seen a real breach with a shotgun as the first through the door, at least modern.
> ...



Sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_discarding_sabot

Alright, from the source: 
"...to nitpick the 7.62x39mm does not have a .308" bullet diameter. It's .311". Only the Ruger Mini-30 has a .308" bore diameter despite the 7.62x29mm chambering."

Now. What happens here is he's describing the ruger mini-30. If we do a quick search, we see that the mini-30 comes in 7.62x39.  http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/460484/gun_review_ruger_mini30_rifle.html 

This guy made a typo. 

Also, lulz to be had at the top of the site you linked, it's a garand, not an SKS.

Oh- the tokorev is definitely 7.62x25, and it isn't that rare, really.

It would be basically impossible to modify an AK to fire 7.62x25, without redesigning the gas piston system, because of the significantly lower pressure. Plus you'd have to redesign the receiver to accept the much shorter round.


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

That's just a armor piercing round with a sabot, the sabot doesn't make it armor piercing.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> That's just a armor piercing round with a sabot, the sabot doesn't make it armor piercing.



Semantics. Sabot rounds enable to possibility to fire a much smaller in diameter round with the same velocity as a much larger round, thereby giving it the ability to pierce armor. It's just ballistics.


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## Irreverent (Mar 24, 2009)

Aestuo said:


> Fencing is such an elegant and noble sport, and it takes a lot of skill to become good at it.  I am thinking about taking it up myself.



Yes it is, yes it can and yes, you should!  Its fairly aerobic too, a full body workout.  And the heavy cotton protective gear, mask and lame really help to sweat off the extra pounds.   Fencers tend to be a fairly gregarious lot, accepting of new members and tolerant of beginners mistakes.  A welcome change from the belted Eastern martial arts



> Meeting your opponent face-to-face is so much different than shooting him from afar.  X3



Not too mention whacking him/her with a dull metal blade is a huge stress release too.  The fact that your opponent has one just makes it all the more interesting.



Taasla said:


> Oh, you're so lucky.  I took it for a year in college, and I can't find any local teachers.



Try here.  Et tu pret?  Alley!



bannik said:


> I wouldn't use a longer assault rifle like an FN FAL,



*ahem* FAL's are battle rifles, they don't fire carbine rounds.  (and on R. Lee Remy's birthday to, heretic!)



bannik said:


> Oh- the tokorev is definitely 7.62x25, and it isn't that rare, really.


Tok's aren't rare at all.  And you can also fit a 9mm barrel to them.  One of my Tula Toks is '43 stock (billions of beautiful factory marks too), but the other is a '42 that somebody butcherd.  I run a drop in Marstar 9mm barel for blasting with it.


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> Semantics. Sabot rounds enable to possibility to fire a much smaller in diameter round with the same velocity as a much larger round, thereby giving it the ability to pierce armor. It's just ballistics.


No, the speed isn't the part of a round that makes it armor piercing, it's the metal the round is made out of as well the shape. Speed does play a part, as does size of course, but a sabot slug isn't that small, and those Armour-piercing discarding sabot rounds aren't in shotguns. Mostly those are used in larger calibers and tank rounds, they are in lower calibers but not much lower than some 7.62 or 12.7 rounds. Though I don't know exactly what is the lowest caliber that can have a APDS, a SLAP round is what you're probably thinking about which is the bullet being the sabot and inside is another projectile, something that shotguns don't have for slugs.

Also, I was wrong about the 7.62x29mm, I meant 7.62x25mm Tokarev rounds. So you were right on one thing.


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## Seas (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Well it is true, but with a FNP90 I can put more rounds down range with 900rpm and a 50 round mag than you can with your 20 round mag at 950. Loaded they're more comparable though the MP7 also has a red-dot sight you'd want on it, where the P90 has that stock as well other features such as longer barrel. Basically, comparing the two not just empty and with more information on what's on the weapon you will get a different story. Fully loaded though the P90 does have more than double the firing capacity, which in CQB I'd want in every possible encounter more than weight, I don't need to dual wield.
> 
> Also, you're wrong about the bullets being lighter by a lot, the MP7's round is a 4.6x30mm 2.0 g DM11 Penetrator, the FNP90's round is a 5.7x28mm 2.1 g SS190 AP FMJ it's 0.1 gram in the difference with more accuracy and armor penetration. The Mp7 doesn't have the same armor penetration so it has a greater stopping power in my opinion.



The MP7 does have a 20-round magazine as default , but you seem to forget that there is already a 40-round magazine widely avaiable, and a 10 round difference doesn't make much of a difference.

And, I have seen a documentation about a test where the armor piercing capability against Crisat (1,6mm Titanium and 20 layers of kevlar) was tested of both weapons , and the MP7 were able to penetrate the armor at 200 meters while the P90 only managed to do it to the same type at 150 meters. 
Note that both weapons use armor-piercing rounds as default.

But it's logical as the larger diameter of the 5,7mm round , with almost the same muzzle velocity as the 4,6mm , will lose speed at a higher rate because the greater air resistance thus resulting in a shorter effective range of penetration.


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

Seastalker said:


> The MP7 does have a 20-round magazine as default , but there is already a 40-round magazine widely avaiable, and a 10 round difference doesn't make much of a difference.
> 
> And, I have seen a documentation about a test where the armor piercing capability against Crisat (1,6mm Titanium and 20 layers of kevlar) was tested of both weapons , and the MP7 were able to penetrate the armor at 200 meters while the P90 only managed to do it to the same type at 150 meters.
> Note that both weapons use armor-piercing rounds as default.
> ...



True, very true. I've never compared the two weapons at 200 meters though, only 100. Do you have a link?
Also why did they use titanium? Steel would of been better.
Realistically a SMG isn't needed at that range, that's entering Rifles and assault rifle territory realistically.

As well the P90 I've seen had a 60 round mag in one model, I'm sure you could also make it larger if you wanted it, but again 10 rounds do make a large difference, that's why the MP40 had 32 and other weapons have odd amounts as well.


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## Catte (Mar 24, 2009)

Well, sliding around the hostile discussion on close-range weaponry, I'm going to go ahead and give a general answer for the thread.

Something with missiles, lots and lots of missile.
~Missiles that blow stuff up, missiles that come in swarms of tiny missiles, missiles that lock on to multiple targets, missiles that carpet a large area, chemical missiles, missiles missiles missiles. Missiles.

I wonder if anyone doesn't get the idea yet.. I'm like the Demoman, if his forte happened to be missiles.


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## Seas (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> True, very true. I've never compared the two weapons at 200 meters though, only 100. Do you have a link?
> Also why did they use titanium? Steel would of been better.
> Realistically a SMG isn't needed at that range, that's entering Rifles and assault rifle territory realistically.
> 
> As well the P90 I've seen had a 60 round mag in one model, I'm sure you could also make it larger if you wanted it, but again 10 rounds do make a large difference, that's why the MP40 had 32 and other weapons have odd amounts as well.



Titanium is used in the Crisat body armor because it has a lighter weight if we want to have the same amount of protection as steel plate, steel is better on vehicles and on other equipment because of the higher density.

A comparison is here, it also has many interesting statistics.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread140440/pg1

And, smg's are good in cqb sutuations and also in urban environments where the firefights usually take place in less than 100 meters range so yea it's not a common scenario where they have to use their maximum range, but it's still useful to have a fighting chance when on a larger open area against relatively distant hostiles in an urban environtment.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> No, the speed isn't the part of a round that makes it armor piercing, it's the metal the round is made out of as well the shape. Speed does play a part, as does size of course, but a sabot slug isn't that small, and those Armour-piercing discarding sabot rounds aren't in shotguns. Mostly those are used in larger calibers and tank rounds, they are in lower calibers but not much lower than some 7.62 or 12.7 rounds. Though I don't know exactly what is the lowest caliber that can have a APDS, a SLAP round is what you're probably thinking about which is the bullet being the sabot and inside is another projectile, something that shotguns don't have for slugs.
> 
> Also, I was wrong about the 7.62x29mm, I meant 7.62x25mm Tokarev rounds. So you were right on one thing.




Yea, right on that, and on point shooting. Which you seemed to have completely ignored... 


Well, since mass x velocity = momentum, and momentum contributes to the force of impact, which contributes, depending on the shape, to how much armor a round can pierce, then the greater velocity and the narrower and harder the round, the greater chance it will pierce armor.  

But no, I'm not thinking of SLAP rounds. I was thinking specifically of an armor penetrating shotgun slug, which uses a sabot. After further research, I found that I was in error. The closest thing you could get to an armor penetrating shotgun round would be something like a FRAG-12 or flechette round. 



Irreverent, you're absolutely right about the FAL. You have a tokarev chambered for 9mm? That's awesome!


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## SirRob (Mar 24, 2009)

Wow... Just looking at the posts above me confuses me. XD 

My favorite weapon is the katana. They're beautiful, elegant, and deadly.


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## SnickersTheCat (Mar 24, 2009)

Haha, there are alot that I like. 
My own hands and feet first of all (martial arts! )
But I like napalm (made some myself  ). 
Kantanas. 
12 gauge. 
SVD Soviet sniper rifle (thank you MGS3).


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## Irreverent (Mar 24, 2009)

bannik said:


> Irreverent, you're absolutely right about the FAL. You have a tokarev chambered for 9mm? That's awesome!



Sort of, its a Tula TT33, '43 vintage with a circa 2003 drop in conversion barrel.  Most of the 7.62x25 we get here is surplus Czeck SMG (Scorpion) ammo, and corrosive primed.  Its also quite hot!  So I bought a sacrificial barrel and shoot Winchester whitebox in it.  

Mind you, the Hungarians did make TT's in 9mm (rare!), and the Egyptians scaled up a Makarov from 9x18 to 9x19....called the Tokagypt by collectors.


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## lilEmber (Mar 24, 2009)

Seastalker said:


> Titanium is used in the Crisat body armor because it has a lighter weight if we want to have the same amount of protection as steel plate, steel is better on vehicles and on other equipment because of the higher density.


Well titanium has the same strength as steel, and steel is a lot cheaper so doing tests would simply be easier and more cost-effective to use steel, either way will give you the same results though.


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## ForestFox91 (Mar 24, 2009)

M4 Custom, p90 I like assault rifles and SMGs! A good ol' 45 magnum Desert Eagle does me good! Med-range weapons mostly.


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## bannik (Mar 24, 2009)

Oh! I wanted to note what my favorite weapon, at the moment, is-

The SVT-40 rifle. It's probably going to be my next purchase. They're sooo sexy.


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## Zseliq (Mar 24, 2009)

Human babies.


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## Icky (Mar 25, 2009)

I favor no weapon, because I have no need of a weapon. I'll rip your f**kin face with my beak! Screw teeth or claws!

(sorry, I just had a random anti-mammal moment . I apologize for the inconvience)


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## bannik (Mar 25, 2009)

*feels discriminated against. Has neither claws nor teeth... of any note.*


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## Mikael Grizzly (Mar 25, 2009)

I just stare at people real hard until they run away, screaming like a little girl.

That's my favourite weapon.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 25, 2009)

hrmm.... 

bolt action rifles i'd have to stick with the perfect lee enfield..... seriously its perfect, lol.

but with modern rifles, now i know all of you are gonna say "only cus your in the military idiot" but i honestly admire and love the entire ar-15 series. its so retardedly dead simple its less complicated then an ak47(still its more difficult to manufacture then it). you need the forward assist if the weapon is dirty and you may have to rack it back a few times every couple hundred rounds because of a jam but it honestly doesnt break. it doesnt kick, and its incredibly accurate.... well most ar-15's are, lol. its just a wonderful simple rifle. 

as for an overall favorite i cant really pick.... i love weapons. sharp objects, cudgels, rifles, pistols. all of it... guess thats why i got the job i have, lol.


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## bannik (Mar 25, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> hrmm....
> 
> bolt action rifles i'd have to stick with the perfect lee enfield..... seriously its perfect, lol.
> 
> ...




But, yea, the Lee-Enfield is definitely my favorite bolt-action too.

...If you're in the military, why aren't you referring to it as an M-16? Only a civilian would refer to their rifle as an AR-15.

Also, have you ever disassembled an AK-47? It's incredibly simple.


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## Chronic (Mar 25, 2009)

Favorite weapon?

Pocket knife. Simple. Pointy. Stabby.


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 26, 2009)

bannik said:


> But, yea, the Lee-Enfield is definitely my favorite bolt-action too.
> 
> ...If you're in the military, why aren't you referring to it as an M-16? Only a civilian would refer to their rifle as an AR-15.
> 
> Also, have you ever disassembled an AK-47? *It's incredibly simple.*



The SKS is also very simple... (had one, wish I'd never sold it.)


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## ceacar99 (Mar 26, 2009)

bannik said:


> But, yea, the Lee-Enfield is definitely my favorite bolt-action too.
> 
> ...If you're in the military, why aren't you referring to it as an M-16? Only a civilian would refer to their rifle as an AR-15.
> 
> Also, have you ever disassembled an AK-47? It's incredibly simple.



because the term "ar-15" covers a large series of rifles ranging from the m4/m4a1 to the entire m16 line as well as the various civilian rifles that usually are only "inferior" in that they lack the automatic sear. in a civilian ar-15 series rifle the trigger group and "disconnectors" engage the hammer when its cocked back. in a m16 on burst or in key versions full automatic the burst cam(or the trigger finger) prevents the trigger from engaging the hammer, and the automatic sear prevents the hammer from dropping before the bolt is fully forward and locked. 

but ya, i'm an armorer usmc . 

anyway on the complexity issue. the ak47 and the m16 are the titans of rifles because they are so fundamentally simple and in their own way perfect. the m16 uses the gas impingement system and thus is much more simple then it normally would be, at the cost of extra fouling and wear on the innards. if you own a m16 be sure to check the gas rings and gas key regularly for wear. however, as with the kalishkinov a m16 really doesnt break too often. it happens but rarely without abuse being applied.  and ya, i had the enjoyable opportunity to break an ak down, wish i had more time inside her though....


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 26, 2009)

Hmmm, favorite weapon....

*unzips pants*

tada


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## Telnac (Mar 27, 2009)

OK, I'm going to list my favorite weapons... but not limit that list to weapons I can hold in my hand.  Otherwise, I'd neglect some weapons that REALLY need their day in the sun.

That said, my top 3:

1)  Katana.   Yeah, me and a billion other furs... but you have to admit, it IS a cool sword!  Nothing quite matches its style.  Add incredible lethality, and you have a hands-down winner.

2)  A-10 Warthog.  I don't care that it can be outrun by a Cessna.  Any plane that can get half its wing shot off & still blow the **** out of a column of tanks is beyond cool in my book.

3) English Longbowmen.  Not so much the bow itself-- I have one and it's a nice weapon.  But English Longbows can be rated from 30# to 300#... the latter of which can only be pulled by someone who's been shooting a longbow from the time they've stopped rubbing their own poo on their face.  I'm talking about the incredible union of bow and archer that allowed England to survive and even thrive during the chaotic years between AD 1066 and 1453.  During the Battle of Agincourt, English Longbowmen (vastly outnumbered) faced down thousands of fully armored mounted knights and heavily armed men-at-arms.  

Normally, archers from the period were peasants, who were given a bow and pressed into service.  They could shoot about well as I can: reasonably being able to hit a target 40 yards away using a bow with a draw weight between 30# and 45#.  Against an armored target, I could only kill them if I got really, really lucky and found an eye hole or some other weak spot with no armor.  Avid hunters, who've been shooting for sport since they were youths, could shoot between 75# and 100# bows.  Against an armored opponent, they could punch through a weak spot in the armor, but not likely any spot that would prove an easy kill unless they too got lucky.

But the English peasants prided themselves on being unmatched in archery skills.  These archers were trained from infancy shooting the bow.  Shooting a heavy poundage bow has next to nothing to do with strength, rather the state of one's skeleton, ligamints and muscles.  Even if I hit the gym every day and shot every moment I wasn't lifting weights, I could never reliably shoot more than a 75# bow.  That's because I didn't grow up with a bow in my hand.  Those who have, and who have been shooting with it from early childhood, can easily draw and shoot bows that would utterly destroy me if I tried!  I've seen a 50 year old woman, who's been shooting since she was 6, accurately shoot a bow with a draw weight FAR in excess of anything anyone else could hope to pull.  She's not particularly strong or well built.  She's just been shooting for that long, and her skeletal structure has adjusted to that fact.

With an entire army shooting between 150# and 300# bows, those arrows could fly a quarter mile and still punch through steel armor as though they were punching through hot butter.  The French may have had the English outnumbered by as much as 3 to 1... but they were bringing knives to a gunfight.  They didn't have a prayer.


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 27, 2009)

OK, here goes- Non-firearms first.

Close in- A good cutlass and buckler. As long as the opponent isn't packing heat, I'm good.

A little further out- My Hoyt Montega bow with appropriate arrows. Silent draw keeps the opponent on their toes. If I have the room to swing it, a throwing axe really makes a statement.

Firearms-

Close in- Smith model 10 M&P 4", Aristocrat sight rib, Clark grips, slicked action, stoked with #38 MAX +P MagSafe ammo. (I have 3, the wife has 1) Speed loaders have Federal 129 gr Hydroshok JHP +P.

Backup/alternate would be Smith 29 3" w/ Pachmayr Presentation grips, stoked w/ 'Swat Load' MagSafe ammo (it will break up in sheetrock!)

A little further out- AR style rifle built from a OLL receiver, 16 1/2" semi-bull barrel, U-15 stock, no flash hider, removable magazine. Legal in Kaliforistan (California) to build/possess. First rounds would be Federal 40gr #P223P (love this round!) followed by Federal 62gr FMJ #AE223N.

General use- Marlin lever rifle in .444 marlin/Magnum Research BFR revolver also in .444 - two firearms, one ammo. Simple. Probably use the standard Hornady 265gr FP rounds. Pachmayr Decelerator pad and Bushnell scope on the rifle.

Backup for slightly longer range would be a Remington 7600 pump(!) action in 30.06. Insanely accurate for what it is and (almost) nothing to break. 4-12X Burris scope on this one. Real good game getter.

Long distance- MacMillan Signature w/Box magazine conversion in .50 BMG (no longer made/sold in Kaliforistan). This one needs reloads so it's a machine-turned 725gr solid bronze boat tail spire-point over a s**t load of Hodgdon H50BMG powder. Good to a little over a mile or so. Factory loads are averaging $3.50 to $7.00 USD a round, depending on manufacturer and quantity. Seen some for $3.35/rnd if I bought 1,000 of them!!! :shock: 32X Leupold (discontinued) on this one.

_As a note: use only "Factory Loaded" ammunition for self defense. Handloads will just hand your butt to the wolves if the perp lives. THe defense lawyers will have a field day with "Home-brewed killer loads" if you use reloads, even ones that mimic a factory load._

Don't forget the DOJ mandated triggger locks/gun safe! If you live upstairs, use a piece or 1 1/8" plywood 2X the size of your safe to beef up the floor. Not fun when the downstairs neighbor wakes up to your Browning gun safe coming through his ceiling at 4 am! (a club member, 20 gun safe used as an ammo locker ...  )

Gah, there's so many other fun things in my home to use for defense (like the aluminum softball bat behind the front door or the Dane axe in the hallway) but those are my top picks right now. Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited.

Kellan, the old warhorse.


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## Laze (Mar 27, 2009)

Wooden plank with a nail in it.

Lewd, crude but gets the job done.


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## Zanzer (Mar 27, 2009)

My Border collie called Mac he will lick everybody to death.


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 27, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> Hmmm, favorite weapon....
> 
> *unzips pants*
> 
> tada



Yeah, well I could've done that too but I was trying to keep it PG17 ...


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## Attaman (Mar 27, 2009)

To all the Katana people:  I'll agree, it is quite deadly... provided your opponent isn't wearing any sort of "medieval" armor better than leather.  You'd be just as well with a nail-bat against a chain armored opponent - if not better off - than you would be with a Katana.

Though it did its job superbly well in a country with limited amounts of poor quality ore.


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## bannik (Mar 27, 2009)

Rapiers are technologically superior.


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## Chronic (Mar 27, 2009)

Axe body spray + a lighter IRL.

In fantasy, a rapier or other light blade.


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## bannik (Mar 27, 2009)

God that would smell terrible.


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## Ren-Raku (Mar 27, 2009)

Chuck Norris.


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## Chronic (Mar 27, 2009)

bannik said:


> God that would smell terrible.


Doesn't really have a smell other than axe.


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## Werevixen (Mar 27, 2009)

Chronic said:


> Axe body spray + a lighter IRL.




Do you mean... a FIRE AXE? Har har har!


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## Irreverent (Mar 27, 2009)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> General use- Marlin lever rifle in .444 marlin/Magnum Research BFR revolver also in .444 - two firearms, one ammo. Simple. Probably use the standard Hornady 265gr FP rounds. Pachmayr Decelerator pad and Bushnell scope on the rifle.



Note to self: Should that old horse break a leg, let some other poor SOB try to put him down......


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## Uro (Mar 27, 2009)

I like. CHEEZE WIZ, I SHALL SUFFOCATE YOU ALL WITH IT!!


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## matt561 (Mar 27, 2009)

Gotta be my berretta 12 boar shotgun followed by my .303 enfield


I have way to many weapons really


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## Ren-Raku (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm surprised nobody but me has chosen Chuck Norris. My weapon>Your weapons.


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## Jack (Mar 27, 2009)

anything with massive explosions, subtlety, or the always fun: slow kill!


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## Attaman (Mar 27, 2009)

Ren-Raku said:


> I'm surprised nobody but me has chosen Chuck Norris. My weapon>Your weapons.



Conan O'Brien


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## Ren-Raku (Mar 27, 2009)

You connot argue with Chuck, since he even bends the rules. He doesn't go hunting because that word implies that he could fail at it, Chuck Norris goes killing.


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## Attaman (Mar 27, 2009)

Ah, but he did fail.  Conan succeeded, Chuck failed.

Regardless, new gun to add:

FORCE:Ground Rifle.  It is, for all intents and purposes, wank.  Featuring a flechette cannon that tears apart a person and throws the remains like a Hollywood shotgun, an energy beam that ranges from "Making stone glow with the heat possessed by nearby impacts" to "cook my dinner", a Bhee firing mode that can shoot through 500m of solid stone and still be lethal on the other end, and several other modes of fire, the FORCE:Ground Rifle is all you'll ever need to make sure what you want dead is _dead_.


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## Sulfide (Mar 28, 2009)

WHY THE F* DID YOU POST THIS!?
I ma gun fanatic

Prefered gun over all: M14 EBR

Other favorites by class:

Assault Rilfes:

M14 EBR
M16A4
FAMAS

Machine Guns

M240
Mk48
M60E4

Sub Machine Guns

MP5
P90
MP7
AKS74U

Sniper Rifles

M14 DMR
M21
M24
M107

Rocket Launchers

SMAW
DRAGON
JAVELINE

Pistols:

Mk23
Glock 19
SIG P226/M11


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## Telnac (Mar 28, 2009)

Hrm... I won't say Chuck Norris in particular but I will expand my list by 2 starting off with the human body.  I only took karate for a year, but it really opened my eyes to how much damage the human body alone can do when one is properly trained to use it.  In a fight between a black belt & a dude with a gun, I'd still place bets on the dude with the gun.  But if the guy with the gun isn't fast on that trigger, that gun's going someplace very uncomfortable!

#5 on my exanded list has to be the AK-47.  I'm not all that into guns myself, and the AK-47 isn't going to win any awards for accuracy or sexiness or originality.  But the thing's been in service for 60 YEARS are is still the most widely used assault rifle in the world.  And for good reason.  A child could use & maintain one (sadly, this is literally true since children are being handed AK-47s and being sent off into battle in far too many places in the world.)  They can be dragged through mud, dirt, water, run over by a truck and they'll still reliably chamber a round and fire it.


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm really surprised nobody mentioned the Ruger 10/22 rifle.

We have 5 of them but only one is original though. Bull barrels, new stocks, custom triggers, etc. The four modded ones are all MOA @ 100 yds when fed the right ammo. Amazingly the ammo is not always match grade ammo, either.

The one that's all original (for now) is a 2.5 MOA piece @ 100 yds when fed Fiocchi Exacta Biathlon rounds.

Cheap to plink/get small game with, almost no recoil, (fairly) easy to clean, lots of good parts for them.

BTW, I can recommend these guys (link below) for a new stock. Great wood selection, fast service. Numerous styles, California claro walnut, American black walnut, quilted maple, fiddleback maple, English walnut, myrtle woods plus some wild laminated wood.

http://www.rifle-stocks.com/

These need final sanding/finishing and maybe a tiny bit of inletting adjustments. Really helps a 10/22 to look and feel like an adult's rifle. I dislike the fact that Ruger makes it with such a short pull for a child. At least that's why I think they do it.

Any other rimfire suggestions?

_Kellan, the old warhorse._


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## Irreverent (Mar 28, 2009)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> I'm really surprised nobody mentioned the Ruger 10/22 rifle.



I've a few, none are stock.  Most of mine wear 20" Clerke .920 fluted barrels and Boyds pepper-laminate thumbhole stocks.



> http://www.rifle-stocks.com/



Ah yes, Richards......:evil:  I've known fellow Canuck shooters that have literally died of old age waiting for his next run of a certain stock, and or trying to get stocks out of the US and into Canada.  Your BAFT is a PITA. (but you probably already knew that!) Good stocks none the less; hopefully they'll start making the heavy bench stock for my CZ-452 Lux again.....one day.



> Any other rimfire suggestions?



How long have ya got? 

I've seen some Remy 597's will actually group (oddly, the cheapest syntetic stocked one), and their "Wasp" stocked 597 version is pretty cool.  The Speedmaster and Fieldmaster hold a place of honour with me, but only for nostalgia reasons.  Mine are both 2" guns, pop can accurate at 50 yards.  Classics!

The most accurate semi-auto I've seen out of the box is the Thompson Centre R55 Benchmark Classic.  18" heavy barrel, Bentz chamber, 2.5lb trigger in a laminate Montecarlo stock.   Mine will group sup-MOA all day long (indoor range) with Lapua Super Club (which is discontinued, damnation!).  With a 6-18x50 AO scope, you _can_ drive tacs with this beast.   I've got a skid of the new Lapua Club on order, hopefully it will shoot as well as the older Super Club round.  Its all made in the same German plant (the Finns sold out) so we'll see.

For bolt guns, I'm a fan of the Schultz-Larsen M70, a mid-70's beginner Olympic 3P gun that shoots as well as an Annie 1903 for about $300CDN if you can find one. 

Savage Mark II BV and BTVS's with accutrigger are nothing to sneeze at; and still *Canadian made* in the old Cooey/Winchester/Lakefield plant in Lakefield, Ontario.  We use them in our club's youth training program and with PMC Scoremaster (getting scarce!) or Federal Gold, they'll group well enough to be competitive in postal matches against Annies, Walthers and SLs in LSBA hunter class.  Every Canadian shooter is duty bound to own a Mark II!

I stopped shooting my Annie (mod 64) due to bad eyesight.  Now that I've had my vision corrected, I can't wait to try out some diopter sights again.  Just a month to go!  I need to haul my Drulov M73 out of the safe too.  Its a 30cm barrel,  bolt action ITU Free Pistol, with a 2gram set trigger.....shoots like a laser when I do my part.

Enough about .22's for ya?


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## makmakmob (Mar 28, 2009)

The mind is my favorite weapon. Nothing our mere hands can make could match is potential .


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 28, 2009)

I really like my Winchester Model 61, made back in 1938...

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Wi...13673d7e1-B89105D2-1517-4EF2-40A7E8B6612765A2 ... here's another 1938 made 61, and it's for sale!


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 28, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> Ah yes, Richards......:evil:  I've known fellow Canuck shooters that have literally died of old age waiting for his next run of a certain stock, and or trying to get stocks out of the US and into Canada.  Your BAFT is a PITA.



Ah, to enjoy the whole BATF experience, you need to live in Kalifornistan. Under the iron rule of Herr Bill Lockyer and Dammen Dianne Feinstein, you have to jump through hoops for anything.

At least I got my .50 before they became illegal to buy. The down side is I can't sell it except to a dealer, who then can't resell it in Kalifornistan.

Had to build an AR just for the range so our rangemaster wouldn't have a stroke. U15 stock, no flash hider, left off the bipod just so I could have a removable magazine. Even simple things like 10 rd mags for my Rem. 7600 were a bear to order.

Yeah, the BATF is not our friend ...

_Kellan, the old warhorse_


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## ceacar99 (Mar 28, 2009)

> #5 on my exanded list has to be the AK-47. I'm not all that into guns myself, and the AK-47 isn't going to win any awards for accuracy or sexiness or originality. But the thing's been in service for 60 YEARS are is still the most widely used assault rifle in the world. And for good reason. A child could use & maintain one (sadly, this is literally true since children are being handed AK-47s and being sent off into battle in far too many places in the world.) They can be dragged through mud, dirt, water, run over by a truck and they'll still reliably chamber a round and fire it.



hate to burst your bubble on the whole truck myth but if you pinch the receiver on that thing like ANY rifle it just wont operate. and its not like it has this bad ass receiver, just sheet metal stamped, welded and riveted. and like any firearm it actually does need cleaning, its just not as much as its competitors. one of the nice things about its gas system for example is that it does a pretty damn good job of expelling excessive carbon. however eventually it will build up to the point that the weapon wont function well, or at all. 



> At least I got my .50 before they became illegal to buy. The down side is I can't sell it except to a dealer, who then can't resell it in Kalifornistan.



are you saying .50 bmg is illegal to buy? i thought only steel core rounds were out....


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 29, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> are you saying .50 bmg is illegal to buy? i thought only steel core rounds were out....



I found some steel core rounds in Sacto. the last time I was up there, interestingly enough. Even found some API rounds that the dealer had on the bottom shelf. Yeah, not legal. You have to watch them if you buy with the intent of reloading them due to corrosive primers and some are Berdan primed, worthless for reloading. What is illegal to purchase here since 2004 in Kalifornistan is a .50 BMG rifle in any configuration. 

_Kellan, the old warhorse_


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## Hackfox (Mar 29, 2009)

Mine are...MAC10, RPD, AK-74, M468, R700 Sniper, MP-7 and a good ol' sword never hurt :3


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## lilEmber (Mar 29, 2009)

Hackfox said:


> R700 Sniper


Ugh....
Remington 700 or the M24a1 or M24a2?


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 29, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

King of all sniper rifles.


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## lilEmber (Mar 29, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82
> 
> King of all sniper rifles.



It's obsolete now, it was replaced by the M107 which is a major upgrade from the M82, even the M95 (which is basically a short little mobile .50 bullpup); it's not used anymore.

The AS50 is also probably going to replace the M107, and the M200 is easily going to take the role for anything non anti-material.


Though I still love the M82 myself, the M107 is made from better materials and overall keeps the same look, but better. <3


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## ceacar99 (Mar 29, 2009)

*shrug* never touched an m82 sasr, but i have had my hands in a m107. always thought they were identical save for a few things like rials. sort of a superficial upgrade like the difference between a m16a2 and a a4. 

thing is though a m107 AND m82 are "special applications scoped rifles", they simply dont meet the moa requirements to be a sniper rifle in the military.


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 29, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82
> 
> King of all sniper rifles.



  MightI suggest this as the better large bore sniper rifle?

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-rifles-tactical-tac-50.php

The Canucks seem to be very pleased with it's performance. A bit pricier, though.

Kellan, the old warhorse.


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## Tycho (Mar 29, 2009)

Once, when I was in 2nd grade, there was a questionnaire being handed out to the students.  One of the questions was "If you were being attacked, how would you defend yourself?" or something similar.  I put "phonics" down in the answer box.  Later the teacher came by my desk and asked me why I put "phonics" down as a self-defense method.  I grabbed the heavy phonics workbook from my backpack, and slammed it down on the desk, crushing a hapless insect.  She got the picture.


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## Yula-XII (Mar 29, 2009)

For some reason i always liked clunky old shotguns, underbar reloads or double barrels. doesn't matter if they're inaccurate or just down right ineffective.. its a aesthetic thing.. :3


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## Irreverent (Mar 29, 2009)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> The Canucks seem to be very pleased with it's performance. A bit pricier, though.
> 
> Kellan, the old warhorse.



Yes they are.  Five Patricias (PPCLI 3rd battalion) won themselves a couple of Yank Bronze Stars.

But its the home made Prairie Gun Works Timberwolf (soon to be designated, if not already the C14 Sniper System) is what gets the bulk of the work done.  http://www.coltcanada.com/timberwolf-page.htm (aka Diemaco)


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## ceacar99 (Mar 29, 2009)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> MightI suggest this as the better large bore sniper rifle?
> 
> http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-rifles-tactical-tac-50.php
> 
> ...



mmmm.... mcmillan rifles....


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## Dragorxz (Mar 29, 2009)

Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, anything else that is explosive.


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