# Gaining an Audience?



## basic_enemy (Apr 1, 2020)

I'm a student of English Literature and have been working with university professors on getting my writing published in legitimate literary mediums. It's a slow process, and in the meantime I've been honing my craft. Been honing it for years. I've also been lurking on furry threads and websites for a while now (perhaps _lurking _isn't the best image, but forgive me, I'm grasping at straws) trying to find the right audience for my kind of writing. 

One thing I've noticed is a glut of popular writers who write really poor smut. I'm not pointing fingers, and no, I'm not calling anybody out. But every single "writing" page I go to on a furry site is about 98% erotica -- and about 99.99% of _that _is extremely niche and fetish-focused. I have no problem with sex in stories. I don't have a problem with erotica, period. It has it's place. I understand. But I've been having a hard time getting anybody interested in my non-fetish-focused fiction as a result.

And me? I'm not Proust or anything, but I do consider my work to be influenced by (and carrying on the tradition of) classic writing -- the kind of story you might walk into a Barnes & Noble and find on the shelf. 

I'm interested in bringing my own spin on fiction to the furry fandom but I'm having a hard time finding anybody who actually wants to read anything like that. Even the authors who've achieved a modicum of fame within the fandom (Kyell Gold springs to mind) are focused on sex-stories, which, again, is _fine_. But it's not what I do. 

I'm getting increasingly frustrated with trying to write quality fiction that features any of my animal characters and I'm turning more and more to writing typical (and human-centric) literature -- but I _know _that there's an audience for someone like me in the furry fandom. I know it in my gut. 

So, the question is, how do I go about building an audience? This seems like the right place to ask, and like the right group of people who might know what I can do. I don't believe my task is hopeless, but I don't know exactly how to tackle this issue.


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## Toasty9399 (Apr 1, 2020)

Well, we can start in this thread. Can you post some of your work here so we can read it? I've been searching for some interesting furry stories, but like you said they're 99% NSFW.


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## Tallow_Phoenix (Apr 1, 2020)

Oof, that's a tough one, and I honestly don't know how to answer that. My ambitions aren't nearly that lofty; I've just been trying to break into Wattpad with my fiction (the quarantine and other life circumstances have left me _really bored_). But I find the exact same thing even there - you just can't get viewers there unless you write smut/fanfiction or you advertise like crazy/make friends on the forums. I guess I'd suggest networking and advertising, and just being patient?
I feel like your university professors probably have more helpful input. But hey, I've been looking for stuff to read lately, so if you want to send something my way I'd be happy to check it out! ^^


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## Toasty9399 (Apr 1, 2020)

I've read many books throughout my years and I've noticed some things. If you want to make a story with anthro characters, you should treat this story like any other book. Try to get it published on Amazon Kindle or something. To give an example, the _Destroyermen_ series is extremely popular and 80% of the characters are cat people. Another series is Expeditionary Force by Craig Alanson. Three of the aliens species from that book are basically lizard, hamster and cat anthros.


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## Sir Thaikard (Apr 1, 2020)

Simply put, if you're having this much difficulty it means some combination of the following things:

1. There isn't a market for your kind of writing. If not enough people are interested in what you have to offer then you will never get an audience. There's a reason why Ouya died.

2. You are doing terrible marketing. Maybe your writing and stories are amazing but you are failing to get them into the eyes and faces of your potential adoring audience. It may be wise to see where your type of story flourishes.

3. You're not unique. Congrats, you're doing all of the above but if everyone else is writing the same or similar things to you than you're just another generic story that's interchangeable from the rest. You need to stand out from the crowd somehow.

3. You're just not that good. You may have been honing your craft for years but that isn't an indication of skill. I've been playing CounterStrike since Source and I'm still hot garbage.


Myself? I don't really need or want an audience.  I'd rather have 10 furries paying me $1000 a month each for the most raunchy, lewd, degenerate stuff around rather than 100 furries paying me $100 each for SFW stuff. I'm one of the guys who caters to the niches and am completely mercenary in my writing. Yes I'll do SFW writing but when there is such a hotter market for NSFW (and NSFW guys tip much better) I'll lean there. I don't care if you think my writing is shit unless you're my client because only what my client thinks is important. 

I think you and I are going after different things but in my short tenure here I would argue that I've found a lot of success very quickly by being able to capitalize or work around the above points.


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## Toasty9399 (Apr 1, 2020)

Sir Thaikard said:


> Simply put, if you're having this much difficulty it means some combination of the following things:
> 
> 1. There isn't a market for your kind of writing. If not enough people are interested in what you have to offer then you will never get an audience. There's a reason why Ouya died.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, the same thing is true with art. Literally today, I saw someone offering 500$ for the most degenerate self insert NSFW art commission, and he had like 30 artists offering their service. When you look at the SFW stuff, most of it is lowend 10-100$ commissions for profile pics or fursonas, but non went over 200$, even for the biggest pieces.


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## Sir Thaikard (Apr 1, 2020)

Toasty9399 said:


> Unfortunately, the same thing is true with art. Literally today, I saw someone offering 500$ for the most degenerate self insert NSFW art commission, and he had like 30 artists offering their service. When you look at the SFW stuff, most of it is lowend 10-100$ commissions for profile pics or fursonas, but non went over 200$, even for the biggest pieces.



There are times where I wish I could draw as fast as I could write. I could have gone freelance years ago and been making as much as a doctor, probably more.


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## basic_enemy (Apr 2, 2020)

Sir Thaikard said:


> I think you and I are going after different things but in my short tenure here I would argue that I've found a lot of success very quickly by being able to capitalize or work around the above points.



I see your point, however I don't quite think you're approaching things the way I am. 

I'm not looking at this as an opportunity to get paid for my work. If this were about getting paid I frankly wouldn't be doing it. There are faster, easier, and more reliable ways to earn money. I've worked real jobs before, and I know how to get paid. 

I've already said once that I don't consider myself a writer of masterpieces. Even with all my hard work, I know that my writing is flawed... But I'd still set it a good sight above most of what I've read on furry sites. I'm not trying to brag by any means, but if the success of a writer were directly proportional to how well they wrote, I'd already have a following. A small one perhaps, but we both know that the world doesn't work that way.

Which is why I came here asking about finding an audience. Clearly I'm _not _marketing myself well. I haven't even tried marketing myself in a while, but I sure ain't planning to sit around doing nothing any longer. 

At the end of the day I write because I enjoy the craft of it. There's a beauty inherent in human language. It's not just a way to make a quick buck, but an art form. Sure, stories are a form of entertainment too -- I know that. I'm trying to find the intersection between those two aspects. And while I acknowledge the need for erotic stories, it's not my wheelhouse. I consider my work an ever-growing body of art. So no, I'm not trying to write commissioned stories about erotic fantasies and kinky scenarios. I'm trying to write stories. There's not a soul in the world that doesn't enjoy a good story. Even the most depraved and degenerate of us still has room for stories.

There is definitely a market out there for furries who like to read real, genuine stories about real, genuine things. If a handful of my stories feature animal characters, then there's a market out there for people who will enjoy the kind of thing I'm trying to write. If I'm wrong, if no one out there cares about what I'm working on, then so be it. I'm not trying to please any clients; I'm trying first and foremost to write something that _I _can be proud of. And I'm getting there. Day by day, I'm getting there.

So while I appreciate your taking the time to explain these finer points, I don't believe they apply.
I write to appreciate writing, to tell stories, to try and make sense of the nuances of life. I write for the art of it. Somewhere out there is an audience who cares about more than just the steaminess of a piece.

If one day there's money in what I do, then great! Only let it be known that I'm not trying to fleece anybody's pockets.


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## Sir Thaikard (Apr 2, 2020)

The issue I take with your response is that it appears you're trying to tackle at least two different beasts. First, are you writing for yourself or for an audience? Because if you're writing to be proud of something why does it matter if you have an audience? If you want to have an audience, you're going to have to cater to them regardless of what you want. You essentially need to treat them like clients because if you don't, they'll leave you for the next writer who does cater to what they want.

I'm not saying you can't have both an audience and something you're proud of, but it sounds like you lack focus and if you don't have the "success" you currently want you need to pick one thing, and one thing only, and work towards that. So ultimately are you writing for you or for this imaginary audience? Because again, if it's just for yourself you just need to satisfy one person, you.

You're welcome to disagree with the points I've made above but it also looks like you did so because you believe my points apply only to someone wanting to make cash. In reality it applies to pretty much facet of life that anyone is failing in.

You claim that there is a market for X. Fantastic. You claim that you are slowly getting back into marketing yourself. Great. Which leads me to the third point that you completely neglected:

You don't stand out. Your writing is not unique.

If there is this market out there and other people are successful it means that these guys are doing it better and/or faster than you. If you want this audience these other writers is your direct competition so either fight them head-on or find a way to circumvent them. I've seen enough writers and done enough writing to see what distinguishes the successful from the downtrodden.

But hey, it sounds like you think you know what you're doing. I hope you find the success you're looking for.


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## basic_enemy (Apr 2, 2020)

Sir Thaikard said:


> The issue I take with your response is that it appears you're trying to tackle at least two different beasts. First, are you writing for yourself or for an audience? Because if you're writing to be proud of something why does it matter if you have an audience? If you want to have an audience, you're going to have to cater to them regardless of what you want. You essentially need to treat them like clients because if you don't, they'll leave you for the next writer who does cater to what they want.
> 
> I'm not saying you can't have both an audience and something you're proud of, but it sounds like you lack focus and if you don't have the "success" you currently want you need to pick one thing, and one thing only, and work towards that. So ultimately are you writing for you or for this imaginary audience? Because again, if it's just for yourself you just need to satisfy one person, you.
> 
> ...



I am _quite_ sorry sir, I didn't mean to denigrate myself before someone of your endless talent. You're correct. My writing is not unique and it does not stand out. Forgive me for thinking -- even for a moment -- that I had something of worth to say. How foolish I must look! I humbly prostrate myself before you, and ask only that you not think ill of me. My intentions, though doomed from the start, were pure. Such folly, to think that I could stand amidst the likes of you! I am a disgrace to the fandom, a disgrace to the art of writing, and most of all a disgrace to the true masters such as yourself. Forgive me, forgive me, and a thousand times, forgive me.


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## basic_enemy (Apr 2, 2020)

Tallow_Phoenix said:


> Oof, that's a tough one, and I honestly don't know how to answer that. My ambitions aren't nearly that lofty; I've just been trying to break into Wattpad with my fiction (the quarantine and other life circumstances have left me _really bored_). But I find the exact same thing even there - you just can't get viewers there unless you write smut/fanfiction or you advertise like crazy/make friends on the forums. I guess I'd suggest networking and advertising, and just being patient?
> I feel like your university professors probably have more helpful input. But hey, I've been looking for stuff to read lately, so if you want to send something my way I'd be happy to check it out! ^^



Weeeellll getting published in a journal is one thing, getting published on a website is another. I mean... I can post a hundred stories online and never get any input, but I know there are people looking for more than just smut! 
Unfortunately I spend far too much time on individual pieces, and can't keep my output going -- or I post frequently and never produce anything of a quality with which I'm satisfied. It's a vicious cycle.

But yeah! I'll definitely get more active on here with posting my stories. Let me know if you ever want to read anything, I'm sure I'll be uploading some content soon!


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## Sir Thaikard (Apr 2, 2020)

basic_enemy said:


> I am _quite_ sorry sir, I didn't mean to denigrate myself before someone of your endless talent. You're correct. My writing is not unique and it does not stand out. Forgive me for thinking -- even for a moment -- that I had something of worth to say. How foolish I must look! I humbly prostrate myself before you, and ask only that you not think ill of me. My intentions, though doomed from the start, were pure. Such folly, to think that I could stand amidst the likes of you! I am a disgrace to the fandom, a disgrace to the art of writing, and most of all a disgrace to the true masters such as yourself. Forgive me, forgive me, and a thousand times, forgive me.



Whoa, not sure where that came from. No need to be so passive aggressive and dramatic in response to my post.

I mean, you did join to ask for help and I guess my advice for whatever reason wasn't for your palate. I hope that someone else is better able to assist you on your journey and again, you find the success that you want.


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## BunBunArt (Apr 2, 2020)

I think you're giving the answer to yourself. I mean... you just said what the issue is: it's not your audience, look somewhere else or write something else. 

You won't change people. I keep saying this to everyone who asks me how I got my audience... I don't try to fit anywhere, I do what I love and people who are interested just come along.

So the question is, what do you love to write. Starting from there, upload your writing everywhere and eventually you will see where you get more audience so you can focus there and forget about the other places.

I have been uploading my art in 16 diffierentes pages and took me like 7 months to realize furaffinity was my place.


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## Toasty9399 (Apr 2, 2020)

This thread blew up, wow.
Can you please post an example of your art? Anything?


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## basic_enemy (Apr 2, 2020)

Sir Thaikard said:


> Whoa, not sure where that came from. No need to be so passive aggressive and dramatic in response to my post.
> 
> I mean, you did join to ask for help and I guess my advice for whatever reason wasn't for your palate. I hope that someone else is better able to assist you on your journey and again, you find the success that you want.



I'm not here for subtleties, I'm here to make a mark. I intend to do so constructively, and in a way that furthers my passions. But things like this? They're making it hard on me. Your initial response said "Sell out and write smut," and your second response said, "You ain't unique, _but hey, sounds like you think you know what you're doing_."

I'm not gonna sit for holier than thou nonsense. If you're a writer, an artist, a creator of any kind, then proclaim yourself a creator of worth. If not, there's no reason to be doing what you're doing. I was hoping for reasonable responses from people, and _I was getting reasonable responses_, then you jumped in with "You aren't creative, you don't stand out, you're a terrible marketer, you're not unique. But me? I'm a mercenary writer. I write smut and people pay me by the word. You must lack focus, and you're not finding 'success,' but I am, because I write for the client."

Yeah, cool, I hope it's working well for you. If we all subscribed to your methods of creation then there would be nothing worthwhile with which to engage. 

Sorry to be so blunt, but you threw a whole bunch of shade at me then wrapped it in oh so many pretty words (and didn't even bother making 'em sound all that pretty). 
_"It sounds like you think you know what you're doing" _is almost unbelievably conceited. I came here with passion, honest curiosity, and a desire for help. Instead I got (praise be!) an unprecedented level of mansplaining from a guy who writes locker-room pornography. 

So again, forgive me if I'm sounding harsh. I've been saying since the initial post that I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that you're not one either. I didn't come here to be aggressive, but I'm not gonna roll over when someone spits venom at me.


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## basic_enemy (Apr 2, 2020)

Toasty9399 said:


> This thread blew up, wow.
> Can you please post an example of your art? Anything?



To Furaffinity, or to the forums?
I'm still (quite obviously) very new to all this. I'm not sure what the etiquette and customs are for posting stories and such, but I'm planning to post soon. Just gotta figure out how to tackle the operation ^^;


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## Jestwinged (Apr 2, 2020)

r/iamverysmart


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## 1234554321 (Apr 2, 2020)

The furry fandom is only good for the porn, which is almost certainly the entire reason why most people are in it to begin with. I'm afraid you'll have no luck in getting your SFW work to be noticed here, even moreso considering the general preference on visuals over writing.

You know, as an illustrator I too tried getting my SFW work out there at one point. I have this original setting of which I'd shared like 150 pieces, most of which were clean, but I never garnered a considerable audience. Here's a few plausible explanations which might aid you in your search for audience success:
1) I lacked focus. Sometimes I'd upload stuff about my original setting, sometimes smut, sometimes studies, sometimes sketches of random anthros, gifts for friends... They say variety is good but what you're doing with variety is, whether consciously or not, trying to appeal to everyone, and the problem with that is that you'll end up appealing to none: those guys that like X are annoyed that you're drawing Y instead, draw Y and the X fans won't be happy, and so forth. It don't work. Make sure you have a well-defined "selling point", an element which makes you exclusive and focus on that. For me that selling point was supposed to be my original setting but like I said I never really properly committed to it and as a consequence reception wasn't that great, rightfully so;
2) my art wasn't really that great, the writing of my personal world probably wasn't as interesting as I thought either, be it due to form or content. Had they been good I'd have been swimming in watchers, no? But that wasn't the case, so back to the drawing board it was;
3) it wasn't porn, although in all honesty I find this one to be the the least likely explanation, a sorry excuse actually. Yes I _did_ say that most furries are in it for the porn but on second thought, all things considered, you COULD get an audience with SFW work even in a porn-centric fandom such as the furry one (the best example that springs to mind is probably Jennadelle), the problem is that the quality bar for people to give a shit about it is higher than it is with NSFW work;
4) what you're making is simply too niche, and this ties with the whole porn thing, because SFW anthro work is effectively a niche within the furry fandom. But "nicheness" can hypothetically be used to your advantage, because when you think about a niche is something that very few people or nobody draws/writes. If you tap into a niche for which there's a demand you can get positive audience results even with suboptimal quality.
An example of this is The Outer Worlds, that game made by Obsidian that was supposed to be this spiritual successor to Fallout New Vegas. Fallout New Vegas was praised to hell and back for its worldbuilding, freedom and meaningfulness of choice; players were hungry for more games with those qualities but Fallout 4 was disappointing and Fallout 76 was an abhomination, so when The Outer Worlds came along it was well received, even though it was actually pretty average especially compared to FNV, simply because of how blue the balls of RPG lovers were, desperate for anything at all of the same caliber they were after

So yeah. Also imho Thaikard's suggestions are pretty useful (you'll notice how I'm basically reiterating his points), you may not like how he phrased them but I recommend not discarding them, there's merit in what he said. Good luck soldier, God be with you


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## Tallow_Phoenix (Apr 2, 2020)

Toasty9399 said:


> This thread blew up, wow.
> Can you please post an example of your art? Anything?



There's examples of it on her FurAffinity page (unfortunately I just saw it and don't have time to read rn). Kinda had to edit the link to get it to work though ^^;

@basic_enemy Just so you know, when you put in your FA username on your profile, you have to enter it in as it appears in the URL. So in your case, it's basicenemy, not basic_enemy. I had the same exact problem with mine ^^;


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## Tallow_Phoenix (Apr 2, 2020)

Also, if you're looking for an audience, I'd suggest trying a lot of different things and see what works and what doesn't. For example, I used to write NSFW stuff, but I ironically find that my most viewed piece of writing right now is some of my poetry, of all things. It's strange because I don't even consider myself much of a poet, and I _exclusively_ write poetry when I'm in a horrible depressive slump, but apparently people really like it.


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## Sir Thaikard (Apr 2, 2020)

basic_enemy said:


> I'm not here for subtleties, I'm here to make a mark. I intend to do so constructively, and in a way that furthers my passions. But things like this? They're making it hard on me. Your initial response said "Sell out and write smut," and your second response said, "You ain't unique, _but hey, sounds like you think you know what you're doing_."
> 
> I'm not gonna sit for holier than thou nonsense. If you're a writer, an artist, a creator of any kind, then proclaim yourself a creator of worth. If not, there's no reason to be doing what you're doing. I was hoping for reasonable responses from people, and _I was getting reasonable responses_, then you jumped in with "You aren't creative, you don't stand out, you're a terrible marketer, you're not unique. But me? I'm a mercenary writer. I write smut and people pay me by the word. You must lack focus, and you're not finding 'success,' but I am, because I write for the client."
> 
> ...



I can see where you think my response was "venomous" but nowhere did in my first post did I say sell out and do smut. I said "I do smut, it worked for me. This is how I made the smut work for me." I have a concrete way to measure what I consider "success" which is money. With yourself, what do you consider "success"? How many watchers, followers, comments do you need to have to consider yourself "successful"? But then you change things up by saying that you want to be proud of what you do. Well, how do you quantify that?

With the second post you decided to take everything I said personally. Ok, let's take your issue from the position of say, a business, I'll pick a restaurant. You as a restaurant owner know that you have a superior food product amongst the "locker-room" quality fast food that someone like me serves and you're sick of people not waltzing in to get a table with you.

You know that there are tons of Michelin Star restaurants out there that are successful, you want to get to that level of quality and recognition, but you aren't there yet. To which I respond, what's your food like? Why would anyone chose to sit down at eat your restaurant as opposed to any other fancy restaurant or McDonald's? If you want people to come in you need to do something like market yourself better, stand out (be creative), or make better food.

Then you get confusing because you tell me that you want to cook for yourself and you want to be proud of your own food. So do you want people to appreciate your food? Do you want to feel pride from people enjoying your superior quality food?

You're welcome to insult me and my writing, or write-off what I say as "mansplaining". Just understand that I never claimed that my writing is good, unique, or engaging. Because I don't need it to be. I just need one person to be happy with what I output.

Oh and the comment about "you knowing what you're doing". Looking at everyone else who has provided advice you haven't really acknowledged any of them, or applied what they've said to your work or struggles. I mean, I know what I've said is blunt and harsh, but others have mimicked what I said in softer tones and to no avail.

I do hope you're successful in what you're doing, there's no ill will here. But I honestly don't think you're going to get there efficiently unless you focus in on what you actually want and formulate a plan with concrete and tangible landmarks to accurately gauge progress.


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## pinecones (Apr 2, 2020)

"One thing I've noticed is a glut of popular writers who write really poor smut. I'm not pointing fingers, and no, I'm not calling anybody out. But every single "writing" page I go to on a furry site is about 98% erotica -- and about 99.99% of _that _is extremely niche and fetish-focused. I have no problem with sex in stories. I don't have a problem with erotica, period. It has it's place. I understand. But I've been having a hard time getting anybody interested in my non-fetish-focused fiction as a result."

I would think the density of erotica might be due to the fact that there are few places people _can_ share stories like that if they desire. Anonymity is the beauty of the internet, and the difference between a community generated platform focused around creativity and a supply chain of regulated publishing companies delivering products that are designed to sell above all else are more than just the subject matter.

Additionally, you can't decide who your audience is. The frustration of creating things you enjoy and wanting to share it with the world and having it taken seriously is kind of a package deal when you choose that path. It's no longer a hobby, something you do just for the sake of doing it, now it counts for much more than sheer joy. Now it's your livelihood and who you are and what you represent. The temptation to pander to basal human instincts is very strong, which is why some of the most popular streamers show skin and (pardon my pun) titillate their audiences. Sex sells, that's guaranteed. People will more often choose a donut over a kale and quinoa salad. However, both are equally creative, none is better than the other. If anything, it proves this point: You don't choose your audience. Never get to choose your audience. The audience chooses what they want to see and the best thing to do is create what you love to create earnestly, put it out there, market yourself and your work, and the people who will enjoy your work might pick it up. It takes a lot of time and dedication.


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## Toasty9399 (Apr 2, 2020)

pinecones said:


> 98% erotica -- and about 99.99%


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## JZLobo (Apr 2, 2020)

Ooof I know what you mean. All I can say is hang in there, plug it whereever you can (without being obnoxious about it), and over time, if your writing is good and your story is interesting, you'' slowly acquire a following.


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## Vakash_Darkbane (Jun 6, 2020)

I don't write smut (usually and not that there is anything wrong with it) and I have slowly gained an audience over the years... I think.  They wont talk to me but someone is looking at the files.   It's taken time but I have just persisted and it happened on its own.


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