# People ask way too little money for commisions!



## Archir (Jan 15, 2013)

I've been doing commissions for a few years now. I've pretty much stopped doing them because I got a full time job as animator 1,5 years ago. So I don't have to do them anymore but also because nobody wants too pay me, because its to expensive.

But what I find weird is why is this expensive. For a fully rendered illustration I'm busy for about 20 hours. A professional freelance Illustrator or animator can ask between the 50 and 300 dollars an hour.

I've seen people asking only 20 dollars for a fully rendered Illustration. Would you be giving somebody only 20 dollars if they worked three days in a shop? No of course not.

I'm aware most of these commissions go via the internet and a lot are not done for company's but for personal use. But still!

Anyway I'm wondering why people ask so litte and why people only want to pay so little. 
Please let me know what you think?


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## Smelge (Jan 15, 2013)

Because people don't want to spend money because they seem to think artists do it for the fun of it.

If artists could ask full and reasonable prices, it'd be great, but unless you've got a huge fanbase behind you, you'll rarely get someone who'll pay for your work at those prices.

It's a case of economics. "I can't get commissions at this reasonable price, so I'll have to drop my prices until I do get commissions.", which they do. At that point they get commissions but are busting their balls just to keep up with the pittance they're earning. At that point, someone else goes "wait, now I'm not getting commissions, so must drop my prices or I can't make my bills this month...".

And thats what it boils down to. Tight fisted little fucks refusing to pay a decent amount for the work, so if you need that little extra cash, you have to drop prices, work harder and burn yourself out.

And just to encourage you, I couldn't even sell more than two drawings at Â£1.


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## Taralack (Jan 15, 2013)

A lot of it has to do with how popular the artist already is. If they already have a very established fanbase (eg. wolf-nymph, blotch, etc.) then their customers are willing to pay high amounts for their money. I've noticed it also has to do with supply and demand - if a popular artist is only open for commissions once every blue moon, then people are liable to snap up spots in a matter of minutes. But again, how high they can charge is largely dependant on their existing popularity.

However the mentality of amateur artists in this fandom is also at fault. Many of them think "if I'm cheap, I'll get lots of commissions!" and this influences the prices of other artists around them too. This causes the genuinely skilled people to severely underprice themselves, while those who really should have no business selling their art get away with a handful of chumps buying from them because they're too much of a cheapskate to buy real art. There's also the problem of some commissioners treating artists like their personal slaves, and who are of the mentality "once I pay them, they must do what I say!" - who will demand change after change from the artist without regard to the original cost and cumulative time. And the cycle goes on and on. 

At this point I see no way for this to be fixed, except for all (literally all) artists to take a stand and charge their work by the hour.

(I am actually tempted to scrap all my existing prices and just tell people "I work for $x an hour, how much this ends up being is up to you".)


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## Archir (Jan 15, 2013)

When I was a student i did lots of commission here on FA. At some point I was lucky enough to get 150 dollars for some commissions. But then I ended up changing it so many times that the amount of money I got was just too little for the time I spend on the piece. But No way they are going to pay extra for the changes.

Now I'm lucky enough to have a job as a animator at a studio, and I a normal salary. But Everytime I open commissions here on the internet I end up having the same problem, and I just don't think its worth it anymore. I also see many amazing artists giving away their art for nearly nothing. 

Where is the respect for artists these days.


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## ThisisGabe (Jan 15, 2013)

People ask so little and pay so little because most furries are young and poor.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 15, 2013)

The other problem is the international aspect. If currency is too low to live on in one area, it may be much more money in a different country.

Market is also saturated with morally bankrupt attention whores...


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## Ansitru (Jan 15, 2013)

ThisisGabe said:


> People ask so little and pay so little because most furries are young and poor.



If one is poor, one should not be buying art or demanding artists to cater to their broke ass by lowering prices.
Just my two cents.


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## RTDragon (Jan 15, 2013)

One problem is most people have unrealistic expectations. They mostly want to be popular, gain attention, and/or be famous. So artworks seems to be the key since i've watched quite a lot of people on FA and know a few that get commissions often by popular artists. Though common sense for some reason doesn't apply here.


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## Rasly (Jan 15, 2013)

Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff, and most commisions are small pieces of work.

From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.

You cant expect real money fom furaffinity, only way you get paid for real, is to take real work from normal companies or to make sites for people.

I think the smartest thing an drawer can do in his free time, is create free graphics and use it to promote himself.


Like for instance, i do lots of stuff for living, but i do write software in my free time just because i like it, even if i dont get paid for it.


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## Taralack (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff, and most commisions are small pieces of work.
> 
> From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.
> 
> ...



Sorry but empty wishes is not going to put food on my table.


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## Ansitru (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff, and most commisions are small pieces of work.
> 
> *From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.*
> 
> ...



Oh look, the dreadful "_Artists should only draw for fun_"-argument has popped up.
Lovely. Creating free graphics for every snivelling, snot-nosed little mooch is about the worst thing one could do.

1/10 for effort though.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff, and most commisions are small pieces of work.
> 
> From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.
> 
> ...



Ok just because someone loves drawing, you have a few misconceptions.

Commissions are not always "small pieces of work" and just because you become better at art doesn't mean there's still a lot of work to do.

Just because one draws whether they are paid or not, doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid to draw. Meaning that, yes I'll still draw if I'm not paid, but if I'm going to draw your crap, or a client's idea hell yeah, I'm getting paid. It's my time and I decide who gets it and what its worth.

Now as for FA, yeah you may have a point, as using it as a way to make a living. 
But if someone is paying the right price a person has the right to decide if it's worth doing.


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## Teal (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, *from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff*, and most commisions are small pieces of work.


 And where the fuck did you get that idea? 



> From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.


 Tell that to the artists who make a living on art.



> You cant expect real money fom furaffinity, only way you get paid for real, is to take real work from normal companies or to make sites for people.


 Funny, traditional artists shouldn't be making almost any money then.
And those who make tons of money from just comissions from non-companies don't really exist huh?



> I think the smartest thing an drawer can do in his free time, is create free graphics and use it to promote himself.


All artists are digital work only in graphics huh?


Stop saying "drawer" you sound like a dumbass.


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## Taralack (Jan 15, 2013)

TealMoon said:


> Stop saying "drawer" you sound like a dumbass.


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## Teal (Jan 15, 2013)

Toraneko said:


>


My sides XD


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## Rasly (Jan 15, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Just because one draws whether they are paid or not, doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid to draw. Meaning that, yes I'll still draw if I'm not paid, but if I'm going to draw your crap, or a client's idea hell yeah, I'm getting paid. It's my time and I decide who gets it and what its worth.


I agree, you decide that, but isn't any money better then nothing? just imagine, you want to draw something, and you see some guy want a commision that is very similar to what you want to draw, would you not take it just because he pay you way less then what you are used to?




TealMoon said:


> And where the fuck did you get that  idea?


This is just common knowledge.



> Funny, traditional  artists shouldn't be making almost any money then. And those who make  tons of money from just comissions from non-companies don't really exist  huh?


I dont know for sure, but from what i have seen, they make  realy small money there, like 20$ a day, no way you can live from it,  best you can do is getting a free piza.



> Stop saying "drawer" you  sound like a dumbass.


How else do you call "artists that draw" in  english?


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## Taralack (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I dont know for sure, but from what i have seen, they make  realy small money there, like 20$ a day, no way you can live from it,  best you can do is getting a free piza.


I don't know where you come from, but most professional artists charge $50-200 an hour. 



Rasly said:


> How else do you call "artists that draw" in  english?


It's just called "artist". If you want to get into specifics, there's also "graphic designer", "illustrator", "concept artist", "architect", "3d modeller", etc. etc.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> How else do you call "artists that draw" in  english?



illustrators
artists

I don't understand your response to my quote btw.


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## Ley (Jan 15, 2013)

Economics 101 - Prices I charge are too high for a market that is generally poor, so I must lower them to get commissions. Then, I lose profit because I am undercharging. Pretty mucht he story of th elife of nearly every artist on FA.


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## Teal (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> This is just common knowledge.


 Just because an artist can do high quality art doesn't mean that they can do it fast.



> I dont know for sure, but from what i have seen, they make  realy small money there, like 20$ a day, no way you can live from it,  best you can do is getting a free piza.


 There are plenty of artists who make a living off art.



> How else do you call "artists that draw" in  english?


 An artist. -_-


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## Monster. (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> This is just common knowledge.


I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. Faster is not better. I would rather wait a month for a commission that I KNOW will be fantastic rather than wait a few hours for a piece of shit with a million and one mistakes. Everyone who has common sense will agree with me on that one.



> I dont know for sure, but from what i have seen, they make  realy small money there, like 20$ a day, no way you can live from it,  best you can do is getting a free piza.


You clearly know nothing about artists or art in general, so do tell why exactly you're here.



> How else do you call "*artists *that draw" in english?


What.


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## Dark Razvan (Jan 15, 2013)

The thing is, a bunch artists start offering commissions when their skill level is way too low, as some people has pointed, they're doing it just for fun and getting some bucks out of it, so they charge 1 buck or so, but this is done by A LOT of people, which makes the client think that such low price is the rule, I recently saw a job offer at the dA forums, and that was clearly stated by the emplyer, ge was offering 20 bucks for 'high quality' semi realism, and he got a lot of angry artist raging at him, and he told them exactly that, he's been searching the forums, and that's what most artists charge...
You may say yeah, they charge 10 bucks but they draw like crap.. but that's not always the case, I've seen some great artists charging  25 bucks for a work that is nearly as good as this guy http://thechamba.deviantart.com/?rnrd=1696 , I stumbled upon that guy and it was sad to see suck good work sold at that price.

But that's quite common, since people them, or even me when I Was just starting out working on the internet a couple years ago, I had no idea how much to charge, so I just looked around to see how much artist were charging, and so when you realize most of the artists are charging about 20~30 bucks, you end up thinking that's a good price (again, when you have absolutely no idea about how much your work is worth, and specially if you come from a country with bad paying jobs...like mine, just to give you an idea, the editorial I started working for a few years ago, paid 100 bucks for a cover.. for a magazine that not only was sold in the whole country, but in many other countries in south america... so yeah, you grow thinking your art is worthless)

That's why some clients think it's ok to pay 30 bucks for high quality art.

Also part of the problem, is that a lot of people thinks art is an easy thing to do, and don't respect it, same thing with graphic design.




Rasly said:


> Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff, and most commisions are small pieces of work.
> 
> From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.
> 
> ...



This is(sadly), a fairly common sample of how people think about us artists, thinking that the better you draw, the less it takes for you to do something.. in a sense it's true, but also, when you get better, if you really want to keep mproving no matter your level, you'll always be pushing to do better and better art, so you'll always be working hard no matter how good you are.

And about living off commissions from sites like this or dA, a lot of people actually does that, and get a pretty good income, as Arshes-Nei mentioned, if people in sites like these decide they want to pay a fair amount of money, and the artist wants to, they have the right to make a living doing commissions, the fact that some people think it's crazy to think you can make a living off commissions doesn't mean it doesn't happen(and it happens a lot),it's actually much better than working for a company, since you're doing work directly to your consumers, to your fans, so isn't that great?

So yeah, bottom line, art right now isn't respected, but that's the fault mostly of the artists, either for not working hard enough , AND THEN start doing commissions, or for selling themselves for too low.



Btw, sorry for my english,not my first language.


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## Tiamat (Jan 15, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Well if it takes 20 hours for you, dosnt mean it takes the same for other, from what i have seen, the better drawer is, the faster he can draw hight quality stuff, and most commisions are small pieces of work.
> 
> From how i see it, real artists draw no matter if they get paid or not, comission is just a little extra money, they dont realy care about it, because they gonna draw anyway.
> 
> ...



You have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Monster. (Jan 16, 2013)

I just love when ignorant people think that a person who has dedicated 4+ years of time, energy, sleepless nights, and the occasional emotional breakdown to art school is "just doing it for fun".


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## Zenia (Jan 16, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I agree, you decide that, but isn't any money better then nothing? just imagine, you want to draw something, and you see some guy want a commision that is very similar to what you want to draw


If the person asked me specifically to draw it, then he pays regular price regardless. Otherwise, I will just do my idea with my character.

Most of the time though, the things people commission are not things I would normally draw. I just finished a comic for someone that included lactation and farting... two things that I wouldn't draw otherwise. Same with a few hyper/micro pics I did recently. Not my cup of tea, but the customers paid for me to do it so I did.

Just because I might want to draw something similar doesn't mean someone should get it for cheap or free unless I feel like being nice.


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## Ansitru (Jan 16, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I agree, you decide that, but isn't any money better then nothing? just imagine, you want to draw something, and you see some guy want a commision that is very similar to what you want to draw, would you not take it just because he pay you way less then what you are used to?



Your argument is "_Isn't $1 for 10h of work better than nothing?_" to which I will eloquently reply with "No, fuck you."
Because those 10h of work could be spent doing something entirely different and more productive than working for a pittance.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 16, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I agree, you decide that, but isn't any money better then nothing? just imagine, you want to draw something, and you see some guy want a commision that is very similar to what you want to draw, would you not take it just because he pay you way less then what you are used to?



I finally think I understand what you're saying.

No. It actually can be more insulting because you are saying a person is not worth much at all. If I spend 7 hours on your art, that's 7 hours I could be earning money elsewhere. People have to survive. People have to pay the bills for the equipment one is using to create artwork in addition to the time spent on it.

It's one thing if someone decides to take their time and do something out of generosity, but don't take that for granted or expect it to be a regular thing. 

That doesn't mean I haven't taken "pay cuts" in certain circumstances. I had done artwork/murals at a teen center that relies on donations and volunteer work to run, but they also gave me use of their facilities. 

I've done artwork at a discounted rate I'd normally take because those funds went to charity and helping others out. However, all of the money at that discounted rate went directly to the charity. I didn't take a cut of the profits. I also don't make it a habit to spend more time doing things for charity vs looking out for myself and making sure I can pay the bills and survive.

I've done those kind of things because I had previous hardship in my life, and felt it worth my time to give back to others that had fallen on hard times.

You wanting your furry art doesn't constitute as "falling on hard times".


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## Tallz626 (Jan 16, 2013)

unfortunately, that's just how it works. Most artists including Picasso sold their soul and produced amazing pieces of art, to request, sometimes for as little as $2 and their work was never considered of any value within the artist's lifetime. The real kick in the ribs is nowadays their art is considered 'priceless' or well into the millions of dollars. 

I agree, it's B.S. On here there are some absolutely amazing artists, quite a few actually, selling their art for <$10. As an end consumer, yay for me. But it really does suck seeing so much work being so under-valued.

But unfortunately, for most money is tight and art is a 'want' not a 'need'.


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## Tigercougar (Jan 16, 2013)

Part of it is people accepting unfairly low price in their desperation to get any sort of commission. It's that old question of how does one attract an audience that wants to pay a fair amount for a commission. 

I wish someone would make a poll showing how many people sell art in this fandom vs. how many people buy art, because then we'd have a good idea on just how flooded the furry market is with artists.


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## Venu.Shade (Jan 16, 2013)

im just reading this thread and i almost busted out laughing over some of the points made in here. Rasly is one of the many people, who with their preconceived assumptions on how art and artist work and perform, ruin it for us artists.

We work, and work hard. right now my commissions are my Only source of income. my only one! period. that's it. do i do personal artwork? yes. it helps me keep a level head. do i do requests? NO. if i start doing art for free not only will i not make money, but i will also bring in a fanbase who will start assuming i will do any art for free, personal or not.
This will be true if i say.. started charging 1/3 what i already do. people will refuse to pay once i raise my prices because they'll assume the low price is what it is actually worth instead of what i originally priced them at.

I think all commissioners should at least look into who theyre getting art from to start with. if they can shit something out in 15 minutes and there is no sense of actual effort the art shouldnt be purchased and that person has no place asking for money. I've even seen an ad on FA for someone offering commissions starting at 1 USD and in color but the person has no set style, sense of anatomy, or color theory. they barely try. they just assume that because they have such a low price, people will shell out the cash (which to my knowledge no-one has thankfully. no need to encourage the person)


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 16, 2013)

Well there's also the fact if you're accepting commissions through one of the major payment processors like Paypal, many of us have to report it on our taxes or face a nasty audit if they find out.


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## Venu.Shade (Jan 16, 2013)

thats only if you get enough to live off of and usually get a tax form from PayPal if you get more than 1.5 K a year that isnt labeled as gift money


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## Tiamat (Jan 16, 2013)

DarknessFlame said:


> thats only if you get enough to live off of and usually get a tax form from PayPal if you get more than 1.5 K a year that isnt labeled as gift money



That does not apply to all countries. I have to by law declare any and all freelance work. No matter how big or small.


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## Tigercougar (Jan 16, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> That does not apply to all countries. I have to by law declare any and all freelance work. No matter how big or small.


At least you get to take a lot of deductions as a self-employed...I'm assuming.


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## Tiamat (Jan 16, 2013)

Tigercougar said:


> At least you get to take a lot of deductions as a self-employed...I'm assuming.



Hell yeah, thats the upside. Almost everything around me can contribute towards a tax refund.
But big brother has a firm eye on all that I do. No foreign currency can enter my account without the bank inspecting it. By law I cannot spend my paypal cash without declaring it through the bank first
and it must be out of my paypal account within 30 days.


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## RTDragon (Jan 16, 2013)

Anyway while we are on the subject the OP also made the same topic here on the DA forums. So i thought anyone would like to read those there's almost 150 replies to it. 
http://forum.deviantart.com/art/general/1823283/


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 16, 2013)

DarknessFlame said:


> thats only if you get enough to live off of and usually get a tax form from PayPal if you get more than 1.5 K a year that isnt labeled as gift money



http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Do-You-Need-to-File-a-Federal-Income-Tax-Return?-
*Were you self-employed with earnings of more than $400.00?*

Keep in mind this is the federal level. You need to also know about your state level.

It's also often in your best interest to file because you may have EIC

Don't confuse when Paypal is required to report, vs when you're supposed to be reporting.


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## Eimell (Jan 16, 2013)

There are too many cheap commissioners that aren't artists, have absolutely no talent with art, and no originality (*cough* generic characters based off of popular series.*cough*).

One of the reasons why I don't want to be an artist is because then I'd have to deal with all of the people who want their Naruto fan character shipped with Sasuke, or their zombie character (who is completely intact and is nothing like a zombie), or their demon who's a human in disguise, or my absolute favorite: draw my character, here's this reference for them that I pulled from google!! I could go on, but there are so many things I could list here that it's sickening. So, you have those hundred or so people who now have these 'oh-so-glorious' characters that are just 'oh-so-awesome' and now they want art. Well, it took them only twenty minutes to sit there and doodle their own character (most often horribly) or to choose that reference from the mighty google website. Now it's time to go find art! But wait! $100 to draw this character that I've worked 'oh-so-hard' on to commission this awesome artist who should draw for me because it costs them nothing to do so or there's this other artists who draws like crap and its only $5? Well, I could get a ton more art if I commission these people drawing for $5.

Problem A: Whiny commissioners who want perfection for $5-$25 commissions for their copy-paste characters done this way and that and with bubbles and Sasuke and don't forget they have to be holding hands and walking down the flower filled road.

Problem B: As stated by multiple others, amateur artists selling their work for incredibly cheap and other artists who look around for pricing following their example.

Problem C: Not enough commissioners with interesting, unique, and fun things that understand that artists (a) aren't slaves, (b) that artists enjoy some artistic freedom, (c) that artists practice for years and they're not pulling everything out of thin air, and (d) do not want to pay for what art is worth.

I try to buy art of my characters at least once a month, although honestly, I post on the DA job offers forum because that's where I've had the most luck finding good artists who WANT to draw my characters. I like to have artists that come to me because they find my job offer interesting. I'll browse other posts to see if that same artist is just spamming every offer they see as well. The commissioners in my honest opinion are just as much at fault as the artists who sell their work for dirt cheap. There are plenty who take quantity over quality and just end up with hacked up gallery's of crap.


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## Teal (Jan 16, 2013)

@ Tiamat, what country are you located, if you don't mind me asking.

@ Eimell, use a read-able font and size dammit.


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## Tiamat (Jan 16, 2013)

TealMoon said:


> @ Tiamat, what country are you located, if you don't mind me asking.
> 
> @ Eimell, use a read-able font and size dammit.



South Africa


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## Archir (Jan 16, 2013)

RTDragon said:


> Anyway while we are on the subject the OP also made the same topic here on the DA forums. So i thought anyone would like to read those there's almost 150 replies to it.
> http://forum.deviantart.com/art/general/1823283/



Yup I started the topic there, as this is the main art site I go too. But FA is the site were I get most of my commissions. So I thought posting it here wouldn't be a bad idea either. Also the prices people ask here on FA are often even lower than on DA. Which is really shocking to me. Because the most commissioners I've gotten here are actually more honest than people who request commissions of me on DA.


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## Taralack (Jan 16, 2013)

Eimell said:


> One of the reasons why I don't want to be an artist is because then I'd have to deal with all of the people who want their Naruto fan character shipped with Sasuke, or their zombie character (who is completely intact and is nothing like a zombie), or their demon who's a human in disguise, or my absolute favorite: draw my character, here's this reference for them that I pulled from google!!



I'm sorry but that is a really flimsy reason not to "be an artist". If you're in it to make money, then this is probably not the profession for you. :V


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## HipsterCoyote (Jan 16, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I agree, you decide that, but isn't any money better then nothing? just imagine, you want to draw something, and you see some guy want a commision that is very similar to what you want to draw, would you not take it just because he pay you way less then what you are used to?
> 
> 
> This is just common knowledge.
> ...



Generally speaking, "Anything is better than nothing," is true, yes, but, I think you are missing a key point. 

The working world, 'real companies', and Fur Affinity are  EQUALLY as full of people who do not understand or appreciate the time it takes to make art happen because if you can not be aware of something which you haven't discovered yourself (you don't know what you don't know).  So, if you are not talented in art, you can not fully appreciate the effort that producing it effectively requires. This applies to anything.  If you don't know how to fix cars, you can't fully appreciate the talent of a mechanic, and so forth.  Professional artists in animation, graphic design, environmental design, illustration, architectural rendering, and other disciplines (all kinds of salaried, professional artists) meet clients from who think that the work they hire can be magically made out of thin air.  There are all sorts of clients from legitimate businesses who do not appreciate the time an artist took or their design savvy and shop for the cheapest thing.  There are all sorts of companies that undercut their competition, outsource, and negatively impact their employees' salaries because of this.  

When you pay someone for a service (any service), you are not just paying them for their time.  You are paying them for their training and expertise and experience. Certain jobs pay better than others because of this.  Surely anybody can understand that some jobs are more difficult than other jobs.  So, when an artist prices their work, if it's professionally or if it's on the Internet, "What is minimum wage?" is not what is supposed to be the deciding factor. 

There are some artists who cut their prices so that they can compete with other artists and there are many artists who do not think that they should change their regular prices with "real companies" to better suit strangers.  Really, why should they? There is nothing pragmatically different about the customer who asks you to draw X and the businessman who asks you to draw X.  They both are asking the exact same service from you.  Even if someone is asking you to draw something which is very quick and simple, they still are asking you for your time and design talent.   Besides, businesses have really simple services that a monkey could do, and *they* still can charge a premium without anybody complaining.   

How come the thought process does not work in reverse? As in, nobody argues that the legitimate business person deserves adjusted prices when he is paying an artist since he's in a legitimate profession and is therefore more implicitly respectable.  My answer is because I know the bitch has money, so I'mma take it from him, but, really, ask yourself that.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 16, 2013)

I know people do this for fun, but the one thing I really hate is the "pay me money to practice" thing.

It's such a bad way of thinking and hurts a lot of artists with this kind of behavior. We're always learning but you shouldn't "need to be paid to learn your craft" 

I need to learn how to cook. I'm bored gimmie money and I might (and might not, if I'm practicing at it) cook you a (good or bad) meal.


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## HipsterCoyote (Jan 16, 2013)

Hahahaha,

If I were at a "I need to practice but I also want to make money" frame of mind, I would just design a gimmick commission thing like "Get your character drawn in this style omgz" and pretend like it's awesome.

NOBODY HAS TO KNOW THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING.


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## Eimell (Jan 16, 2013)

Toraneko said:


> I'm sorry but that is a really flimsy reason not to "be an artist". If you're in it to make money, then this is probably not the profession for you. :V


I suppose I did fudge that post though. My bad for that. I meant I don't want to do art professionally.
I don't draw to make money, I draw for enjoyment. I'll only draw for someone if I feel like they put time and effort into their character/backstory.  I'm very happy with my current full time job. I make enough to get by and enough to commission an artist every once in a while, but I prefer to choose an artist that I feel will enjoy the project and do it well versus an artist who just wants money and who will spit it out as fast as they can. I just feel that most of those I see that are looking to commission artists expect cheap, quality work. They want it as fast as the artist can get it to them and tend to expect it to look precisely how they want it to look. I've even seen some try to haggle artists to do bulk work for cheaper. Just saying, there's a large percentage of commissioners who just don't seem to care about purchasing quality or just don't understand the value of quality. They most certainly don't help the problem of artists charging too little.


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## HipsterCoyote (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm here to make money with little regard to the depth of the character I may be drawing.  I don't expect online commissions to compose my chief income by far (but I have lucked out, actually, and have made more than I expected to ) but I only came here because of the prospect of making money.  Tee hee.


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## Taralack (Jan 16, 2013)

Eimell said:


> I don't draw to make money, I draw for enjoyment. I'll only draw for someone if I feel like they put time and effort into their character/backstory.



I honestly don't care how much or little effort someone has put into creating their character. I would draw a pika pika sparkledog for the right price. As long as I'm compensated adequately for the amount of time I spend on it, I could care less. 

And honestly, these are furries we're talking about. Characters come and go like changing underpants. Besides, who are you to judge how much effort someone decides to put into making their character? Stuff like that is very subjective and can't exactly be quantified.


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## HipsterCoyote (Jan 16, 2013)

Toraneko can I get a quote on a sparkledog with scars that glow when orcs are near?


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## WarrenWolfy (Jan 16, 2013)

From my experience, it's the same in every fandom / hobby / sub-culture / etc...

Supply and demand kicks in, and there's inevitably a glut of amateur / average / above-average / almost-but-not-quite-really-great producers who are producing things because it's their hobby, and then trying to sell the results only to find that the market is flooded on the supply side.

Meanwhile, a few elite members of the community have the premium, highly sought-after goods, so their market is starved on the supply side, and they can charge a decent price because the demand for their product is also high and thus people are willing to pay a decent price.

Then, finally, everybody who is either cheap or has entitlement issues complains endlessly about how prices are total nonsense and proposes a magical, moralistic system of pricing that has no basis in the laws of supply and demand.

Cycle, rinse, repeat.


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## Taralack (Jan 16, 2013)

HipsterCoyote said:


> Toraneko can I get a quote on a sparkledog with scars that glow when orcs are near?



$1000


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## Eimell (Jan 16, 2013)

Toraneko said:


> I honestly don't care how much or little effort someone has put into creating their character. I would draw a pika pika sparkledog for the right price. As long as I'm compensated adequately for the amount of time I spend on it, I could care less.


I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. You're most certainly free to do so, as is any artist. 


Toraneko said:


> And honestly, these are furries we're talking about. Characters come and go like changing underpants. Besides, who are you to judge how much effort someone decides to put into making their character? Stuff like that is very subjective and can't exactly be quantified.


It is subjective, therefore it's more or less a guess on my part. As for judging who's to draw and who's not to draw, I'm drawing it as a gift and not as a commission. Most would consider it as a compliment. I don't do full blow illustrations though, as I really dislike the coloring portion that comes with full illustrations, so I don't feel that I'm threatening the professional artists in any way because most people that do commission artists are looking for full illustrations or CG colored works. 
Thank you for fixing the font in my earlier post as well. I'm not certain how it came out so tiny.


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## Rheumatism (Jan 16, 2013)

You furries and your infinite greed.


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## Arshes Nei (Jan 16, 2013)

Nah, I'd rather have the money and something I can show to family for bragging rights. Fuck this draw for money and huddle in a corner of "furry shame".


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## HipsterCoyote (Jan 16, 2013)

*@Toraneko: *So, $1,000 in your strange, Kangaroo-soiled currency is like $5.00 in Murica dollars, right? 


I have a separate gallery for my furry shame where I get really weird commission requests...And hope nobody notices the style consistencies in mine and the other one.


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## Teal (Jan 17, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> South Africa


 Cool.



Arshes Nei said:


> I know people do this for fun, but the one thing I really hate is the "pay me money to practice" thing.
> 
> It's such a bad way of thinking and hurts a lot of artists with this kind of behavior. We're always learning but you shouldn't "need to be paid to learn your craft"
> 
> I need to learn how to cook. I'm bored gimmie money and I might (and might not, if I'm practicing at it) cook you a (good or bad) meal.


 When I need practice I offer freebies. Unfortunatly I see way too many artists who want money for "practicing".


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