# About the BIG Paypal problem



## Tchelline (Feb 3, 2015)

As a FA artist myself, for quite a long time people has asked me if I can sell them comissions and I have turned them down because I dont use paypal. For protection, my FA is not Tchelline so dont even bother looking for me, I preffer to remain anonymous as this subject is delicate.

However, since I have entered into some recent economic problems, I have come to consider making some money from comissions. Big problem I see is that selling furry comissions seems to be a bomb of time in which Paypal eventually will detect you and lock you out because they don't see furry art as anything different from simple porn.

So, I come here to ask you people a complete answer about this issue. How much is it worth to link your paypal account to gour bank account just in order to get eventually closed due to them finding out what is the nature of what you sell?

Being realistic, one can be all careful and always ask comissioners to keep things discrete when sending payments, but eventually one comissioner will fuck it up and write notes regarding what are they really buying - furry art, that, again, at the eyes of paypal is just porn and thus against their rules.

Considering I start taking comissions and payments through paypal, how much time do I get before they find out that I am from Fur Affinity? I know some artists are lucky and they never "get catched" but I want to be realistic.

How big is the risk for the average furry artist taking comissions? And, daring to abuse my luck and naiveness, is here any bullet-proof way to use paypal to sell comissions without eventually getting closed by paypal for daring to sell furry art through their service?

Thanks in advance for any answer I might get.


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## DragonFoxDemon (Feb 3, 2015)

Send an invoice. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6903907/


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## Tchelline (Feb 3, 2015)

I have read that information already and that does not fully respond my question. Although thank you very much for answering.


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## Zenia (Feb 3, 2015)

They will never find out so long as you send an invoice to the customer and do not mention anything about FA.

Many reps at PayPal even say that drawing furry porn is fine, I think they just get freaked out about "feral" porn and porn between a human and animal.


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## Tchelline (Feb 3, 2015)

Many reps? How where and when? Tell me more please >.<


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## Centradragon (Feb 3, 2015)

They can't close your bank account, just your paypal account. I assume you're going to be transferring money out fairly often, and to my knowledge they won't just go "THIS PERSON MADE $2000 LAST YEAR ON POSSIBLY PORN, TIME TO WITHDRAW IT ALL." Worst case they'd freeze your Paypal account and you'd just have to ask them to unfreeze it over the obvious misunderstanding.

I've been using Paypal for commissions since 2008 and never had a problem. FurAffinity has even been mentioned on a handful of payments to me â€” needless to say I don't draw porn, but if "FA" or "FurAffinity" was a trigger word for them, I'd have been banned years ago. If you want to be cautious, just ask your commissioners to not mention FA (just their username/name so you know who it's from) and you shouldn't have an issue.


Here's Paypal's stand on sexually oriented goods and services.

You might think the first bulletpoint would mean commissioned porn is verboten, but they also mention below they consider the "literary, artistic, political, or scientific value of the product." Commissioned erotic art would definitely be under the "artistic" side of things, and it's not like you're a paysite â€” it's a custom commissioned piece of art, intended for one (or a very few) people.



Really, just ask people not to mention FA (or details about the commission) and you'll be golden. Trust me! Absolute worst case you just call them up and explain the situation. They're pretty easy to reach by phone, and if you're not sure you could always just call and ask a representative.


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## Zeitzbach (Feb 4, 2015)

If someone feels like saying "Thank you for the dog fucking me picture" when gifting you art with "Furaffinity" put somewhere, it pretty much falls under "illegal good" and kaboom! Frozen account.

This is why you go with Invoice. They don't know where you're trading as long as you don't mention FA. You can mention the picture in detail as long as you avoid anything porn-related. All they will know is that you're making some money and that they're getting a small share from that so they will love you.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks a lot for the information, that really calms me down. Although, you know, what happens if someone on purpose, with ill intentions sends me a payment or gift saying "draw me dog porn fur affinity xD".

how do I defend myself if someone does that on purpose with the intention of getting me closed down? You know that there are trolls everywhere just waiting to harm people like us "for the lulz".


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Also, one more thing, I did read at the top of that link you gave me that they admit "U.S.-only" transactions for that kind of material. I don't live in the U.S., does that mean I will not be able to sell comissions afterall?

I know a lot of artists who dont live in the usa and sell comissions anyway, several of them can be considered erotic, so, how do they arrange things to not get closed down?

I'm from MÃ©xico by the way. And sorry for asing so much.


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## Zenia (Feb 4, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> how do I defend myself if someone does that on purpose with the intention of getting me closed down? You know that there are trolls everywhere just waiting to harm people like us "for the lulz".


If someone were to do that and your account was then frozen, you should PHONE PayPal customer support and explain the situation. You get much better results when you actually talk to a live rep than if you email support.

As for "U.S Only" I think it refers to the fact that you can set your account to accept US dollars only if you want. Any other currency sent would appear as a link (or something) that you would click to accept the funds. You do not have to set it up that way though. For example, I am Canadian and I have never had trouble with accepting a transfer. I do (mostly) tell people to send money in US funds, just because the majority of my customers are American so it is easier for them, but when I transfer it to my bank account, it automatically converts to Canadian funds for me.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks a lot Zenia, although the complete quote from the link he gave me to Paypal says this:

"_We permit U.S.-only transactions for certain sexually oriented physical goods that are physically delivered to the customer. Videos, DVDs, and magazines are examples of physical goods. (We donâ€™t allow transactions for such goods outside the U.S.)
We donâ€™t permit PayPal account holders to buy or sell:

_

_Sexually oriented digital goods or content delivered through a digital medium. Downloadable pictures or videos and website subscriptions are examples of digital goods."_

What can be understood from that phrase is that paypal will only officially admit physically sold porn. A comission implies transfering just a digital file either by email or by posting it somewhere. Thus it is against their rules to deliver comissions the way the furry artists do. The other issue is that apparently they will only allow such kind of transactions to take place within the USA.

Zenia, sorry for being paranoid but... this also means you are susceptible of being "witch hunted" and closed. Unless you have some trick you use to protct yourself  youd like to share it would calm me a lot ;.;


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## Zenia (Feb 4, 2015)

*shrugs* It is up to you if you feel it is worth the risk or not. The only other thing I think you could do is have people send international money orders via IRL mail. Though, if you did that, I wouldn't start on anything until it arrived.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Zenia said:


> *shrugs* It is up to you if you feel it is worth the risk or not. The only other thing I think you could do is have people send international money orders via IRL mail. Though, if you did that, I wouldn't start on anything until it arrived.



*whines*

I guess Ill use paypal and live in uncertainty and fear afterall ;.;


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## Zenia (Feb 4, 2015)

If it helps, I haven't had a problem and I've been using it for years.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Zenia said:


> If it helps, I haven't had a problem and I've been using it for years.



Well it does help some, thank you very much ;.;


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## Taralack (Feb 4, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Thanks a lot for the information, that really calms me down. Although, you know, what happens if someone on purpose, with ill intentions sends me a payment or gift saying "draw me dog porn fur affinity xD".
> 
> how do I defend myself if someone does that on purpose with the intention of getting me closed down? You know that there are trolls everywhere just waiting to harm people like us "for the lulz".



That's why you send an invoice. Don't wait for them to send the payment. That way YOU control everything about the payment process. Once they receive an invoice the only thing they can do is pay it.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Taralack said:


> That's why you send an invoice. Don't wait for them to send the payment. That way YOU control everything about the payment process. Once they receive an invoice the only thing they can do is pay it.



Ok, I get that part now, thanks a lot for taking your time to answer. Now, the last part of this  issue and the one that most scares me, is this part in their policy thqt states that this kind of transactions can only take place within the U.S. And not from other countries:

http://goo.gl/ykSXWH

How do all the non-american artists manage to sell comissions without being bothered by that rule? Specially if we consider that the goods here are not physically transmitted but digitally, so it breaks two of their rules and not only one ;.;


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## Taralack (Feb 4, 2015)

You're looking at the "sexual goods" section only. If Paypal were really a US only service, that would kinda defeat the purpose of its existence, don't you think? 

Plus, if you're talking about adult rated commissions, they are for only one person, or a small group of people, which is not the same as a subscription to an adult site. That's why adult art paywall sites can't use Paypal. 

I'm from Australia, and I've used this service since about 2000. I've never had any problems with it.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Taralack said:


> You're looking at the "sexual goods" section only. If Paypal were really a US only service, that would kinda defeat the purpose of its existence, don't you think?
> 
> Plus, if you're talking about adult rated commissions, they are for only one person, or a small group of people, which is not the same as a subscription to an adult site. That's why adult art paywall sites can't use Paypal.
> 
> I'm from Australia, and I've used this service since about 2000. I've never had any problems with it.



Well that's  the link that Centradragon mentioned above. It does calm me to see someone who also is not from the USA.

Would you mind if I ask, have you ever made made adult-themed or borderline adult-themed or just general erotic art?

what kind of things, besides the ones mentioned, you have done in order to avoid getting locked up?

thanks in advance ^^


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## Zenia (Feb 4, 2015)

Personally, I do almost nothing but X rated commissions. Also, I dump my PP money into my account periodically. They can't freeze it if it is in your bank account, and they can not take money from your bank account without your approval.

Honestly, I think you are being a bit too paranoid about it.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Zenia said:


> Personally, I do almost nothing but X rated commissions. Also, I dump my PP money into my account periodically. They can't freeze it if it is in your bank account, and they can not take money from your bank account without your approval.
> 
> Honestly, I think you are being a bit too paranoid about it.



maybe... But since Im mexican and first-worlders tend to think bad about us, I have to be extra careful.

i mean, by merely being mexican they will already look down at me as someone suspicious, so Ill have to be excessively careful since I already have a big bad point against me x.x


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## Zenia (Feb 4, 2015)

... I really doubt that. They probably won't even notice you to be perfectly honest.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Zenia said:


> ... I really doubt that. They probably won't even notice you to be perfectly honest.



I really hope so ;.;


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## Taralack (Feb 4, 2015)

Tchelline said:


> Well that's  the link that Centradragon mentioned above. It does calm me to see someone who also is not from the USA.
> 
> Would you mind if I ask, have you ever made made adult-themed or borderline adult-themed or just general erotic art?
> 
> ...



I have done lots of adult art, and they have all been paid for through Paypal. This was years before I was even aware that they freeze accounts for adult related transactions. 

Zenia is right, you are overthinking this a bit too much. Even if Paypal catches someone breaking their TOS, they are not going to throw them in jail... and Paypal has millions of customers. Unless a whole mass of people start reporting you, I doubt they would even notice even if you did break the rules.


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## Tchelline (Feb 4, 2015)

Taralack said:


> I have done lots of adult art, and they have all been paid for through Paypal. This was years before I was even aware that they freeze accounts for adult related transactions.
> 
> Zenia is right, you are overthinking this a bit too much. Even if Paypal catches someone breaking their TOS, they are not going to throw them in jail... and Paypal has millions of customers. Unless a whole mass of people start reporting you, I doubt they would even notice even if you did break the rules.



Maybe, hehe, sorry >.<

At least I showed my paranoias under a name nobody knows and not in my real FA >.<

Anyways, thanks a lot for your support and the information shared. You are very very very sweet. All of you who posted in this thread.


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