# The "I Suck" Thread



## M. LeRenard (Feb 5, 2010)

This might be entertaining, and possibly illuminating.  I wanted to start a thread where we all criticize our own writing.  I'll go first, so you see what I'm getting at.

Actually, I've come to find that my art and writing suffer from the same problem, which is that, while I've got the technical stuff down well enough, there's rarely any kind of soul to any of it.  People, I don't think, relate to my work most of the time, and it's highly forgettable.
I mean, don't get me wrong; people often comment about certain things they like, or that such and such part was done very nicely, or that this scene really drew them in, or whatever.  But only rarely does that kind of recognition ever become something that makes people want to go out and tell their friends about what they've read.  It was a nice experience while it lasted, but now it's over, and that's that.
The last rejection letter I got from a magazine let me know that I'm right about this.  Here's a quote from it, for your enjoyment:


> The sequences of scenes [in the story] was interesting, but for a short story I felt there were too many (too many scenes and possibly too many characters), and that the plot, both overall and throughout the story, was not well enough defined.


So, in other words, it was well-written, but in the end it was just a series of events.  And I look through my gallery, and realize that that's what most of what my writing amounts to.
Now, so far as how to fix this problem... it's tough.  It's one of the reasons I haven't been putting out much writing lately, is because I've been thinking about it.  The fact that it also shows up in my art (the last piece I submitted looks nice, but it's really just a bunch of objects, when it comes right down to it) means that it has something to do with the way I think when I'm writing or drawing.  And changing the way you think is not particularly easy.

So... where do the rest of you guys fall short?  Lay out your problems in the hopes that in so doing, you'll find a solution to them.
And if you want to give advice to someone else, feel free.  That might give the thread more life, and the gods know the Bloc could use more life.


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## Atrak (Feb 5, 2010)

I do not consider myself a true artist of the visual arts. Every single one of my pieces have been connected to video games  . Most are also called illustrative, and according to my teachers, illustration isn't art. I have figured out that when it's not illustrative, but still screams 'VIDEO GAME!!!,' it's because of my color choices. They are all connected, instead of the random colors others choose.

I don't really think of this as a bad thing, however, as I am wanting to learn graphic design, in order to make video games  .

As for my writing...I feel that I don't make it hard enough for my protagonist; that it's too perfect. I don't like perfection, even if I strive for it :/ . I also need to work on my planning. Atm my stories are almost completely freestyle. I'm hoping to help resolve this issue somewhat by working on a collab with Altamont, but I doubt it will fix it completely.

Back to art...overall, I suck at it  . My sister got most of the artsy genes. Whenever I want do to something on my own, outside of class, I get no inspiration. It's only w/in the class, with assignments, that I get inspiration. Although sometimes I do get inspiration for projects other than class ones, but I mostly get them from being in the class  .

I really like this project I'm working on, though, for printmaking. We're doing a reduction print with the theme: Collecting. I...was inspired  .


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 5, 2010)

My writings suffer from two main diseases:
First is "wall of text" syndrome. My stories have very long paragraphs. They are full o descriptions and details to build proper climate but they are very complex, so they are difficult to divide into smaller, easier to read parts.
Second is called "TL, DR". My stories are massive, and I mean MASSIVE, usually about 13 pages per chapter or story. And that's why no one wants to read them. The problem is the text itself is not build of equal parts so it would be hard to divide it into smaller "sub-chapters".

The other problem are pointless sub-plots like arming of Surmailen in "Eternal Guardian". It has absolutely no point for the story as a whole. It gains some minor importance however if we consider "Eternal Guardian" a prelude for my "novel", where Surmailen is one of main characters. And it gets pretty confusing.

Oh, one more. I'm not sure if I can create really likable characters. Sure, their stories are detailed, personalities are in most cases are quite unique etc.. The problem is I don't know if someone else could really like them, relate to them. I can but thats sure thing, they are like my own children.


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## Atrak (Feb 5, 2010)

HidesHisFace said:


> My writings suffer from two main diseases:
> First is "wall of text" syndrome. My stories have very long paragraphs. They are full o descriptions and details to build proper climate but they are very complex, so they are difficult to divide into smaller, easier to read parts.
> Second is called "TL, DR". *My stories are massive, and I mean MASSIVE, usually about 13 pages per chapter or story.* And that's why no one wants to read them. The problem is the text itself is not build of equal parts so it would be hard to divide it into smaller "sub-chapters".
> 
> ...


 

Err...could you state avg. number of words per chapter, please? I don't think of 13 pages as massive :/ .


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## Kindar (Feb 5, 2010)

my big problem is that I'm a minimalist.

I can't get myself to pad my stories with extra descriptions, even when such descriptions would make a scene better.

I'm working on it, but even now it's an uphill battle. every time I put some extra description it feels forced and I feel like I'm just adding words for the sake of adding words


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## Atrak (Feb 5, 2010)

Kindar said:


> my big problem is that I'm a minimalist.
> 
> I can't get myself to pad my stories with extra descriptions, even when such descriptions would make a scene better.
> 
> I'm working on it, but even now it's an uphill battle. every time I put some extra description it feels forced and I feel like I'm just adding words for the sake of adding words


 
If it seems forced, don't do it, as it will more than likely turn out crappy. If minimalism is what you do, then do it to the extreme! Make everything in your story symbolic, and give it multiple depths of meaning without any lengthy descriptions at all. That, done right, is not an easy feat, believe me  . It might be your shtick, though.


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 5, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> Err...could you state avg. number of words per chapter, please? I don't think of 13 pages as massive :/ .



About 7k words per chapter in Polish version.
Eternal Guardian - my only work translated into English - 8k words (that means translation increased that number).
It gives about 41k characters per chapter/story.

Maybe for you it is not that much, but for average Internet reader it is.


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## Xipoid (Feb 5, 2010)

My stories lack an experienced background and base making them rather lacking in depth to properly immerse the reader in the deep atmosphere of a setting. They lack the amount of jargon (for lack of a better word) I enjoy that makes it seem like the author really knows what he/she is talking about.

My characters often stem from the same base making them too similar. They aren't very well fleshed out which causes them to gravitate towards similar lines of thought as the story progresses. Many of them are essentially the same person dressed up in different clothes.

Sentence structure and vocabulary is rather repetitive and somewhat boring. It makes the story difficult to engage in. The used vocabulary is often limited. When you break it down, it seems detail and variety is my weakness.


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## TakeWalker (Feb 5, 2010)

I suck at plot too. :| Specifically, at making deep, layered, intricate plots in which no happenstance is wasted. I love novels that work like that, it's something I want to build up to one day.


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## duroc (Feb 5, 2010)

Great theme for a discussion, Renard.  It makes me wish I could come up with interesting ideas like this.

And speaking of "I suck", I'm not very good at coming up with original, intriguing ideas.  Most of my stories feel generic all the way around, in terms of both setting and characters.  Similar to what Xipoid said, I also feel like my characters are the same person but with different clothes.  I try to use dialogue to make them at least sound different, but it doesn't always work out.  

Plus I'm not very good with titles and endings.  I continue to struggle at times with using proper grammar and working through plot holes can be difficult for me.  My biggest problem is coming up with a completed idea from beginning to end.  I can create several snippets to a story, but putting them in some sort of order and making them work together is very challenging.  It's probably why I haven't tried writing a complete novel yet. 

I'd also like to expand my vocabulary.  Sometimes I feel like it's quite bland.  

I think that covers most of it.

I'm gonna take this a step further though.  I'm gonna point out people around here that I think do things better than me.

When it comes to vocabulary, I think Metassus makes excellent use of words and language.

When it comes to interesting worlds and ideas, I like what Xipoid and MLR do in their stories.  They think outside the box, without making things feel contrived.

When it comes to great dialogue and characters, I admire Poetigress and Takewalker.  Their characters always feel fresh and believable, and some of their characters could stand out simply on dialogue alone.

When it comes to variety, that hat goes to Vixyyfox.  You never know what kind of story you'll get when you take a look at one of her submissions, and I really admire that.

Okay, I think I'm done now.


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## Rsyk (Feb 5, 2010)

My problem usually comes with expanding a story. So often, I'll get a certain scene or character perfectly in my head, get it on paper, and then get hit with massive writers block. This usually leads to me create hundreds of different snapshots of stories, but very little fully complete works.

I also have a problem with consistency, as far as writing style goes. I like to switch P.O.V. to fit the mood that I'm in, which ends up getting very confusing for the reader, even when it's myself reading back over it. I also tend to change tone as well, sometimes within sentences. 

I tend to harp on certain themes within my stories. I'm very attracted to the idea of martyrdom, so sometimes I'll find myself making excuses to include it in a draft. This is a problem I've mostly fixed though, mostly by writing out a single scene with the essence I want to capture and not doing anything with it. Although, I did upload one of them to my FA account, so I may start posting them more.

Grammar.
Imagery.



Yeah, my writing pretty much sucks. Working on it though.


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## Altamont (Feb 5, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> As for my writing...I feel that I don't make it hard enough for my protagonist; that it's too perfect. I don't like perfection, even if I strive for it :/ . I also need to work on my planning. Atm my stories are almost completely freestyle. I'm hoping to help resolve this issue somewhat by working on a collab with Altamont, but I doubt it will fix it completely.


 
For me, I feel like I have the opposite problem. I can spend ridiculous amounts of time planning out my work, and I usually end up with characters and stories that, if I do say so myself, are not only well defined but also realistic and compelling. The problem is, I'm such a perfectionist that I get stuck on chapter one, re-writing and re-writing until i just collapse in to a black-hole of self-inflicted limbo. 

I think I just need to develop more confidence in my style of writing. I feel as if I have an excellent grasp of scentence fluidity and descriptive construction, but I'm so damn nitpicky. Hopfully this collab with Atrakaj will help temper this fatal flaw of mine  As much as I'll be able to aid in the planning and development of plot, I think he'll be good at reeling me back in to reality when I lose myself in self-depreciation


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## M. LeRenard (Feb 5, 2010)

Altamont said:


> The problem is, I'm such a perfectionist that I get stuck on chapter one, re-writing and re-writing until i just collapse in to a black-hole of self-inflicted limbo.


So then, what keeps you coming back and changing things?  What do you think you're doing wrong?


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## ekobor (Feb 6, 2010)

My main problem is finishing things.

I'm quite good with short stories (100-30,000 words by my definition) but when I try and get a longer story, one that I know won't fit into that space, I tend to get to about the 75,000 word mark and stall. (this is usually my third day). 

I dislike working on one thing for longer periods of time, if that time doesn't seem to go well. If I can set down to 4-6 hours of writing a day, I'm good. But I don't usually get the time. If I write for say 30-40 minutes one day, the next I will feel frustrated because I will have lost some nuance that I wanted to include but couldn't the day before due to time. 

So I guess my problem is I'm a one-sitting writer. 

My other problem is I have a hard time structuring longer pieces of writing. My method of writing is generally just type and see where it goes. Which is fine for those stories I have vague ideas about (generally a beginning rough in my head, maybe one or two sentences I want to work with), but for stories where I know the beginning, I know the end, and I know the general flow of everything, I am screwed. I can't get it all to fit together in my writing of it, and then I get frustrated.

Erm, sorry, that was longer than I intended. I've never really ranted about it before so I guess I had a lot pent up. =P




Altamont said:


> The problem is, I'm such a perfectionist that I get stuck on chapter one, re-writing and re-writing until i just collapse in to a black-hole of self-inflicted limbo.



Work like NaNoWriMo. Write it ALL out, and don't allow yourself to edit until you are done. 
I found the best way to prevent editing is to write, say, a chapter then have a friend or family member save it for you as edit-protected with a password that you don't know. So the next time you go to pick it up you can read what you wrote before, but you can't edit it, you have to move on. And continue that cycle until the story is over. Then have that person remove the passwords from the files, glue 'em together, and get with the editing. 

You'll find that some of the things you thought you may want to edit out become integral parts of your story.


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## ekobor (Feb 6, 2010)

Xipoid said:


> My stories lack an experienced background and base making them rather lacking in depth to properly immerse the reader in the deep atmosphere of a setting. They lack the amount of jargon (for lack of a better word) I enjoy that makes it seem like the author really knows what he/she is talking about.
> 
> My characters often stem from the same base making them too similar. They aren't very well fleshed out which causes them to gravitate towards similar lines of thought as the story progresses. Many of them are essentially the same person dressed up in different clothes.
> 
> Sentence structure and vocabulary is rather repetitive and somewhat boring. It makes the story difficult to engage in. The used vocabulary is often limited. When you break it down, it seems detail and variety is my weakness.



When lacking experience do what any good visual artist does. Research~ Google the place, the profession, the hobby, the era. Find pictures, texts, stories. Absorb as much as you can about it into yourself. I know very little about legal systems, but when writing about them people have told me they felt very realistic. Look for the system of thought behind a behaviour. As long as you can get the tone of the setting correct people will gloss over the details unless they are a professional in that field. 

When it comes to characters I find the best way to get them different is to think in terms of philosophy. Think of a situation. Say, a shoddy looking business man is offering them a house to buy. Take your characters (best with three or more) and think of how they would react. No two people will react exactly the same. Jack may tell the guy to piss off before he starts to speak, Mike may listen all the way through. Think about why the character does this. 
Maybe Mike's father was a used car sales person who made an honest living, and he watched as people were rude to him. So Mike's thinking is warped by past experience, and he listens to the man.
Jack's mum however lost her money and home when she listened to a scam artist who promised her riches. So Jack's thinking, warped by past experience, tells him this man is untrustworthy. 
No character does what s/he does without a reason behind it, save the insane. If you can't see why the character would do what s/he does, and can't explain it in terms of their past experience and/or hopes for the future, it is unlikely the character would do that action.
Character sheets like those used in DnD and other RPGs can be a great help. Fill out their background with all the major events of their lives. Fill in what they hope to achieve in the long and short term. Give them an emotion marker, a base emotion that you can connect the character to. Mike, above, I would connect to peace and worry, while Jack I would connect to fear, anger and distrust. Obviously neither character will act that way all the time, but it gives you a base idea of where their motives lie. 
If these characters are going to be used in a longer story, I'd suggest writing a shorter story about them in first person through their eyes, even if they are a secondary character. (I probably wouldn't go past tetrary characters with this treatment though, too much work!) This lets you pull on the skin of this person and feel as they do.
For ideas draw on people around you. Read philosophy, sociology and psychology books. Learn what behaviours people have. Base characters off people you know, even. It gives them all more plausibility.

Sentence structure and vocabulary I can't be much help with, I'm afraid. The best I can do is to say read more. Read everything from science journals to fiction to the dictionary. See what sentences are used to get across a certain 'air'. Try writing a paragraph in your usual style. Then try writing the exact same intent entirely in exclamations! Then in questions? Short sentences. Long, verbose, overly detailed sentences that give more description than you, the reader, or anyone in their right mind, would want to read. Doing this will help you feel comfortable with different sentence styles; the use of structure I find comes naturally. 
Vocabulary... I can only suggest reading more. Remember, a word you know is worth two in a thesaurus. 


... I'm sorry again this got long. Writing is my passion.

{E} I only DP'd so as to make the wall'o'text syndrome smaller. Sorry.


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## Altamont (Feb 6, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> So then, what keeps you coming back and changing things? What do you think you're doing wrong?


 
I don't think it's what I'm doing wrong as to what I _think_ I'm doing wrong, you know? It's a...statisfaction kind of thing. I'm so ambitious that sometimes I need to just pull back and let my work...stew, for a while, and then I'd be able to have a clearer, less biased viewpoint of what I write. 

And, as I said before, hopefully some outside opinions would help as well  I just have to learn to not be so protective of what I write.


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## Lazarus (Feb 6, 2010)

I have a problem when it comes to the usages of past and present tense. I tend to ignore them and favor the present tense, which is apparently a difficult thing to read.

I tend to, at some point in the story, go all Michael Bay on it and have some kind of over-the-top, unnecessary sequence. This also applies to my need to make a character's clothing as exact as possible and my constant obsessive-compulsiveness to include some from of a high-performance car in a story.

I tend to write about smartassess and forget that it becomes hard for a reader to distinguish between tow characters that I've written that are very similar in dialog and mannerisms. I also tend to include too much local slang in stories, even ones outside of where this slang is used.

I can never seem to concentrate when I need to. So sometimes I end up spending weeks just pissing the night away coming up with schemes that are never properly written about. For whatever reason my motivation can drop to zero in minutes and other times it's just afterburners all night long.

Overall I think I should be hit with very large hammers to fix these problems.


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 6, 2010)

ekobor said:


> When it comes to characters I find the best way to get them different is to think in terms of philosophy. (...)



These are good tips, I can tell. Even similar (in case of motives) can be in fact absolutely different when it comes to behavior. Even small details can make such differences much more visible. 

I have two such characters - at first, they seem quite similar - both are brutal, arrogant and hate similar things but they are absolutely different, even in details of the similarities.
Brutal - Illaila is cruel, enjoys delivering pain and fear, Udrael on the other hand is like a berserker.
Arrogant - Illaila is beautiful and she knows it. She looks down at others considering herself superior, while Udrael underestimates others.
They both hate humans but for different reasons. Illaila hates them just because they exist, while Udrael got his friends killed by them. 
They also hate people resisting their will. Illaila is dominant type, who thinks that everyone should listen to her, as a priestess. Udrael on the other hand is experienced veteran and he sees resistance as failure of his capacities for leadership. He knows how to keep his teammates alive and he finds marauders dangerous for him and his squad.
Similar at first but very different in details 

The problem is they are not very likeable, at least I think so. I have other characters who are much friendlier but they seem no to be as interesting and expressive as mentioned two.
So yes, creating likable, "positive" characters is another thing I suck in.


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## ekobor (Feb 6, 2010)

HidesHisFace said:


> ...
> The problem is they are not very likeable, at least I think so. I have other characters who are much friendlier but they seem no to be as interesting and expressive as mentioned two.
> So yes, creating likable, "positive" characters is another thing I suck in.



Illaila sounds a very unlikable person, cruel and self centered, while Udrael sounds loyal, strong and caring in his own way. 
A friendly character isn't always the most likable. 

Generally people are attracted to strong emotion in characters. A character who is angry and shows it will be liked (or hated!) to a strong extent than a wish-washy kinda nice, kinda not character; this is simply because the reader will put in no more emotion than they feel they are getting out of a character. 

A likable character has to give the reader what they are looking for and still surprise them totally. The funny thing about likable characters is they don't necessarily have to be 'liked'. If they are hated or despised, they are still likable characters. The reader has a vested interest in them, even if that interest is only to see them squashed! =P

Of course, you likely know all that, but sometimes it is nice to see things restated~


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 6, 2010)

ekobor said:


> Udrael sounds loyal, strong and caring in his own way.


Well - in fact Udrael is strange and complicated character for a raging berserker. He started as typical, ambitious, idealistic young soldiers, but after he failed to protect his friends his personality go split up between bloodthirsty beast and good commander. And the beast won. Vengeance became his obsession. The last remaining parts of his sanity make him reject help of his partner/wife Miori and his squad mates to protect them from both enemies and himself.
Thats quite tragic character, to be honest.




> A friendly character isn't always the most likable.



That's a good point, but talking about likable character I wasn't talking about weak character with simple personality but rather about character who is not as tragic as Udrael. I mean, character who is likable before something terrible happen to him o her, like good material for story about changing personality, not already changed one.
I have a pair of such characters and I want to make them likable from start, so the reader may "feel" the changes in their personality and relate to them closer.


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## Altamont (Feb 6, 2010)

In terms of likability, I think one needs to draw the line between "nice" and "real". A characer can be as nice as hell, but all that ssweetness can be damn annoying if there's no counterbalance to it. Personally, the characters I love the most in fiction aren't neccessarily so much as the nicest as they are the most relatable. I actually think that's one thing I'm good at in my writing, which is creating relatable motivations for my characters.

Take me and Atrakaj's collaboration at the moment. We have the protagonist, a human that is now a wolf who has awoken in a world a thousand years past his own. The antagonist is a friend fron the protagonist (James') own life. He has also awoken in this "furry" world, but he is a human; not only that, but his research as a scientist a thousand years ago contributed to the anthropomorphic-ness of the human race, as well as the virus that has been killing millions. 

James is the only hope to create an antivirus for these new people, and the only way to find that antivirus is on the long-lost ship, the Animus. However, on the Animus lies the means for the antagonist to achieve his own goals: To turn back time and stop this future from ever occuring.

So while the antagonist is the closest thing to a "villain" in the story, Atrakaj and I were sure to make it so that he wasn't evil. He wanted to save his species and save million of lives. James wants to do that as well, only for this world he has fallen in love with. It just so happens that both f these characters goals are the antitheses of each other. hopefully the story will work out so that both James and the antagonist are equally sympathetic, with people rooting for both sides to win.

You know, come to think about it, that might also be one of the "flaws" in my writing. I will spend literall years making all of my characters real and likable and empathetic and even tragic, and I'll work out every single facet of my plotline so I can avoid cliches, make a compelling story, and maybe even conure a tear or two. But whenver I sit down to writie it, I'll often freeze up. 

Short stories and scripts are fine for me, but in regards to the epic novels that I plan out so often, something about their scope just intimidates me in to a corner...


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 6, 2010)

It sounds like very interesting setup for a story. The plot will surely give you many interesting opportunities. Especially relations between protagonist and antagonist look like a good idea.
When it comes to general plot, my stories are quite simple. First (and only one translated into English so far) is simple story about great commander going to battle. Details show the real motives and more depth though.

Second - the novel is more complicated but still fairy simple - it's about love of young soldier from elite formation and simple girl who wants to see outside world - the species I am talking about lives in closed, self-efficient and hidden city in constant fear of barbaric outsiders, so it is a problem. So young soldier decides to help his lover to make her dreams come true, even if realization of these dreams may prove fatal to her. - Again, the story becomes much deeper in details including problems such as racism, religious fanaticism and breaking moral rules to achieve your goals.
In this second example I have to write about two protagonists, show their developing relationship without making the whole thing too confusing, and thats very hard thing to do. Hope it's not too hard.

When it comes to longer plotlines - consider making a detailed plan before you start writing. When it's done, stick to it without making too many changes, because it may break the whole plot.


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## M. LeRenard (Feb 6, 2010)

HidesHisFace said:


> When it comes to longer plotlines - consider making a detailed plan before you start writing. When it's done, stick to it without making too many changes, because it may break the whole plot.


I wouldn't recommend this for everybody, actually.  Some people can pull it off, but most of the time (like with myself, for example), people write the outline as just a general guide, keeping it relatively plastic just in case it turns out something doesn't really work, or in case something else comes up that sounds better.  You know.  It's silly to be too rigid, and often if you are too rigid you'll get stuck because you run into a roadblock when trying to figure out how to link one bullet point to the next.  At times like that, it's best just to sidestep the roadblock and go a different route.  At least, if you want to make progress, anyhow.

This discussion about characters reminds me of a problem I'm having in my novel, which is that I'm not sure when to start making the MC fail at things.  For the first twenty or so pages, he's a snide, self-confident sonuvabitch... which is likable for a short time, but gets almost preachy if you let it go too long.  And I don't know if I'm letting it go too long or not.  My solution is to start really kicking his ass later on in the story, but I don't know how good a solution that is.
Sometimes I have a tough time keeping people sympathetic to my characters, I guess.


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## Takun (Feb 6, 2010)

I am a terrible descriptive writer.  I just get straight to the point and because of that my storytelling is terrible.

Even this was just two sentences.  God damn.


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 6, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> I wouldn't recommend this for everybody, actually.  Some people can pull it off, but most of the time (like with myself, for example), people write the outline as just a general guide, keeping it relatively plastic just in case it turns out something doesn't really work, or in case something else comes up that sounds better.  You know.  It's silly to be too rigid, and often if you are too rigid you'll get stuck because you run into a roadblock when trying to figure out how to link one bullet point to the next.  At times like that, it's best just to sidestep the roadblock and go a different route.  At least, if you want to make progress, anyhow.



Thats true, but if you overload your basic plot-line with "grat new ideas" you might as well end up with completely different story, making your previous work entirely pointless. This won't get you far either - you will be writing the "same" story all and all over again. If new ideas are really better than initial ones, than everything is fine. Flexibility is really good thing in such situations. On the other hand if your new, better ideas look that good just at first glance and than turn out... Let's say not that great, it is better to have some kind of plan with all the initial ideas written down. As for me, my basic ideas are usually the best when it comes to general plot. If I had no plan during the writing I would end up with story full of absolutely pointless side-plots, characters etc.
On the other hand when it comes to details, the longer I think, the better. So I still have to keep my plans quite flexible.



> This discussion about characters reminds me of a problem I'm having in my novel, which is that I'm not sure when to start making the MC fail at things.  For the first twenty or so pages, he's a snide, self-confident sonuvabitch... which is likable for a short time, but gets almost preachy if you let it go too long.  And I don't know if I'm letting it go too long or not.  My solution is to start really kicking his ass later on in the story, but I don't know how good a solution that is.
> Sometimes I have a tough time keeping people sympathetic to my characters, I guess.



I have similar problem with my Illaila and thats why she is just a side character .
On the other hand I do not really want her to be likable. How can you like extremely arrogant, proud, fanatic and sadistic (and I mean REALLY sadistic) character who would not change even a bit no matter what? 

If kicking characters ass forces him to change his behavior (at least to some dagree), then yes, it may work. 
If not, it may make a force kicking his ass much more likable , or... It may also make people feel sorry to him like: "He didn't deserve this, he isn't that bad!"
It's hit or miss tactic, to be honest. It may work in the way you want but thats not the rule.


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## Gavrill (Feb 6, 2010)

I have zero motivation to write, and once I start writing, I never finish.

Also I write fanfiction.


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## Tyvara_Panther (Feb 6, 2010)

I hate when I'm vague. It's always about something I didn't think was important, but a critter never fails to bring it to my attention. Lots of my earlier stories suffer from this big time. I want to gag looking back at them all. :-%
Sadly, I used to suffer from wall-o-text syndrome, too, but I came from writing scientific papers -- which is not novel writing -- the same techniques don't apply. So I had to retrain myself for stories.

I know my grammar could improve -- one of the downsides of moving states while in school is some things are taught at different times in different grades. As a result, I missed all those useful grammar classes. I never thought I'd buy a 'For Dummies' book until I wanted to improve my grammar.

I'm always worried I put too much into my writing. I like to write about weird things (like using Servaline genets as an MC, or describing what snakefruit tastes like), and I sometimes wonder if it just isn't what people care to read about. The problem is, that it's best to write what you're interested in; but the weird stuff (such as period clothing, and evolution) *is* what interests me.
I figure maybe one day I'll find the right combo of weird that makes it right -- so I've got to keep trying.


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## Altamont (Feb 7, 2010)

Yeah, it can be dificult to find that right balance between describing enough and describing too much. I think it varies from story to story, personally. Some stories, such as the ones by Arthur C. Doyle and the BrontÃ« sister's have their backbone built on heavy descriptions, which are very good at setting tone, mood, and a kind of tertiary characterization. 

Other stories can effectively set those things while being vague as hell. For anyone here who has read Becket's plays or his Trilogy, you know what I mean. I _still_ have no idea what the hell happened in those books, but I love 'em 

Grammar can also be tricky. I personally never had any advanced grammar education until highschool, and by then I had already figured out the rules and how to break them. I still have a hard time identifying compound clauses, but I can put a scentence together (it took me a litle while, though XD). 

I think the best way to figure out grammar (besides a formal education) is to emulate and experiment. when you read a book study how the scentences are put together, their length, syntax, etc, and figure out what effect that has on the narrative or passage itself. Then just write away, experimenting on your own terms until you find what's right for you. It might take awhile, but I think eventually you'll be able to feel out what is right and what isn't 

But, like I said, formal education is probably the best way to go, either through instructional books or teachers. 

And don't even worry about the weird stuff  It _is_ nice to have readers appreciate your work, but in the end, it should be about you. Write about what you love, readers be damned. You'll enjoy yourself more when you write for it, and that's what matters the most


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## Kender3421 (Feb 7, 2010)

I can't seem to grab an audience with my writings. No one likes to read my stories because I don't write sex scenes often. My one shots gather attention but it kinda feels like I am just throwing the reader in without explaining what is going on.

My grammar stinks. I mix words up when I'm writing. My characters sometimes have too much going on.


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## Altamont (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, don't worry about the audience you might lose because of your lack of smut 

And what I always like to do is take a one-shot and try and expand on it. Write a series of one-shots involving that character or build a story with that as a chapter. It's a great way to expand your repetoir and learn at the same time


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## Kender3421 (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I have one idea for a one shot dealing with the supernatural. Might give that a try.


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## Altamont (Feb 7, 2010)

Hey, let us know when its done  I'd personally be happy to share any advice and critiques I can


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## Tyvara_Panther (Feb 8, 2010)

It's not so much about the descriptions, but more how sometimes I _think_ I've got something all set up, and the twists are so obvious -- probably because I've sat and read them x number of times -- but it's just not clear enough. Even worse, when I've edited out an important piece because I thought it was useless, only to find out I cut off my baby's arm.
*shrugs*That's what critique groups are there for. Had I known there was one up and running here, I would have run my latest through that as well as my normal critique group. I'll certainly be doing it with any future submissions though.

I'm not really *that* worried about the weird stuff -- I mean, that's always what I love the most -- I just think about it and how it relates to my audience. I'm trying to aim for making the peculiar things I love meld with things a reader could relate to. It's usually a wait and see game to know if it works.
Nothing could get me to write about things I don't love -- that's the main reason I'm not in journalism. 

I guess in the end, I'm just a perfectionist who hates mistakes, in a field where mistakes are commonplace.


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## AzulTS (Feb 8, 2010)

Shenzebo said:


> I have zero motivation to write, and once I start writing, I never finish.
> 
> Also I write fanfiction.



You and me both. Not to mention I have an idea in my head that could be semi-epic.


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## Atrak (Feb 8, 2010)

Kender3421 said:


> Altamont said:
> 
> 
> > Kender3421 said:
> ...


 
Haha, I usually only have one sex scene in each of my stories  . Well, possibly two, if you count the shower scenes, when they don't 'technically' have sex...

Meh. I'm more for plot/action than smut  . And what Altamont said about expanding one-shots is true. I did a one-shot short story, and am expanding it into a series that are really more like sequels, although the end adventures are going to tie it all together and appear in a more series format.


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## Gavrill (Feb 8, 2010)

AzulTS said:


> You and me both. Not to mention I have an idea in my head that could be semi-epic.


Yeah, ideas aren't the problem with me, it's putting them on paper/typing them.


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## Atrak (Feb 8, 2010)

Shenzebo said:


> Yeah, ideas aren't the problem with me, it's putting them on paper/typing them.


 
Do you plan them out/play them out in your head with great enthusiasm, and then lose it when you try to type what you planned?


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## Gavrill (Feb 8, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> Do you plan them out/play them out in your head with great enthusiasm, and then lose it when you try to type what you planned?


Yes, that's exactly how it goes. As soon as I sit down to type, I just draw a blank.


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## Atrak (Feb 8, 2010)

Shenzebo said:


> Yes, that's exactly how it goes. As soon as I sit down to type, I just draw a blank.


 
Okay, I had the exact same problem. Here's what I did.

1. Turn off your internet. Unplug it, throw it at a wall, etc.
2. Get rid of any other distractions. I.e. family. Lock yourself in your room.
3. Sit down at your computer and open up Q10 (a really awesome typing program).
4. Start typing. Don't stop.
5. If you still can't, then just stay like this. When you get bored enough, you'll start typing  .

~Don't plan out your ideas. Get the start of them, feel the enthusiasm, and then think them out AS you type them. This is freetyping.
~Start with a short story (maybe 20-30k words).


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## Gavrill (Feb 8, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> Okay, I had the exact same problem. Here's what I did.
> 
> 1. Turn off your internet. Unplug it, throw it at a wall, etc.
> 2. Get rid of any other distractions. I.e. family. Lock yourself in your room.
> ...


I'll definitely give it a go. Although my room doesn't have locks ;~;


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## Atrak (Feb 8, 2010)

Shenzebo said:


> I'll definitely give it a go. Although my room doesn't have locks ;~;


 
Door + bed = barricade.


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## M. LeRenard (Feb 8, 2010)

Is it just me, or did this thread bring a lot of new faces out of the woodwork?  Maybe people enjoy talking about their failures.


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## Atrak (Feb 8, 2010)

Hahahahahahahaa...

Well, I guess that makes us true writers, then  .


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## AzulTS (Feb 8, 2010)

Shenzebo said:


> Yeah, ideas aren't the problem with me, it's putting them on paper/typing them.



The ideas get so distorted that you don't like it on paper anymore, therefore it is not worth a crap. Same happens to me. I tried to work around it some, but to no avail. From now on, if I get stuck, I am just going to stop writing until some fresh material comes my way.


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## Tyvara_Panther (Feb 8, 2010)

My hand is my biggest hurdle right now. I have to take frequent breaks so I don't aggravate it too much. When it gets too bad I switch to writing in notebooks.
I have so many stories I'd like to get typed it's driving my bonkers.
I hate winter. :cry: Winter makes everything hurt.

If you're looking for something that could help tune out distractions. Check this site out. It has lots of nifty functions such as a timer, word counter, a really obnoxious buzzer, and it even has a setting where it'll erase your writings if it stays idle too long. :twisted:
It might help get a healthy writing habit going. But it's more for those who *have* ideas but can't sit down and type.

I've been on FA for a while, but I'd never really checked the forums. But I've got more folks that follow me over here than on SF, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to pop my head in.


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## Altamont (Feb 8, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> Hahahahahahahaa...
> 
> Well, I guess that makes us true writers, then  .


 
We are all are own worst critics, that's for sure. And above it was seemingly noted that writing fan-fiction is a fault, but I find that hardly to be the case. I love writing fan-fiction, because it eliminates everything that cripples me when I get stuck. I'm already in love with the world I'm writing about, and there's at least a story to bridge yours off of. Now, of course fan-fiction does no good when one is experimenting in chraracter creation, world-building, etc, but I think that it still has its place., especially as a source of fun, inspiration, and stylistic excercising. 

Take me for instance. I hadn't been able to write much of anything substantial in who-knows how long. But then, yesterday I said "Fuck it." Enough epic tomes, enough labyrinthian plotlines, I'm going to write something simple and awesome and fun for me. So I dived in to a Mass Effect idea i'd been bouncing around for a couple of weeks. I'm a few thousand words in after only a couple of hours and already this creative hole in the dike is seeping in to my original stuff and allowing that to flourish too. Animus and Winter 2010 short story, here I come


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## Torrijos-sama (Feb 8, 2010)

I suck with unified theme although i've gotten better after taking seroquel.


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## TDK (Feb 9, 2010)

Shenzebo said:


> I have zero motivation to write, and once I start writing, I never finish.



This.

Also I have this crazy cycle in which at one time i'm either a decent artist but a shitty writer, a good writer but a shitty artist, or a shitty writer AND shitty artist (which is right now).

And on top of that my pacing sucks.


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## ekobor (Feb 9, 2010)

Eh, I finally signed up to the forums then found this thread. Couldn't resist replying.

I really wish I was doing more writing, but I've been in bed with some flu like thing for the last few days (Tues-Thurs, Sun-Now. Somehow skipped Fri-Sat >.<) fever, constant sleeping and weakness in limbs does not a proficient typer make.


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## Atrak (Feb 9, 2010)

Altamont said:


> We are all are own worst critics, that's for sure. And above it was seemingly noted that writing fan-fiction is a fault, but I find that hardly to be the case. I love writing fan-fiction, because it eliminates everything that cripples me when I get stuck. I'm already in love with the world I'm writing about, and there's at least a story to bridge yours off of. Now, of course fan-fiction does no good when one is experimenting in chraracter creation, world-building, etc, but I think that it still has its place., especially as a source of fun, inspiration, and stylistic excercising.
> 
> Take me for instance. I hadn't been able to write much of anything substantial in who-knows how long. But then, yesterday I said "Fuck it." Enough epic tomes, enough labyrinthian plotlines, I'm going to write something simple and awesome and fun for me. So I dived in to a Mass Effect idea i'd been bouncing around for a couple of weeks. I'm a few thousand words in after only a couple of hours and already this creative hole in the dike is seeping in to my original stuff and allowing that to flourish too. Animus and Winter 2010 short story, here I come


 
Quite true. While I've never actually written fan-fictions, I have had many ideas for them, although mine usually use lots of new characters, as well as the existing ones. The biggest help with fan-fiction is the prefabricated world. Perhaps I should write a fan-fiction for Eragon...I had an idea for it some months/years ago...


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 9, 2010)

There aro two main problems with fan-fics:
First - they lack the flexibility, freedom given to the writer. If you want a good fan-fic, you have to keep your story as close to the canon as possible.
Second - fan-fic is never entirely you work, it is placed in someone else's world and/or with someone else's characters. You always have to give a credit to the author of universe and characters you use.

Thats why I've made my owns universe. I tell what is canon and what is not, and everything there is mine. It may not be the best universe in the world, but it is something very personal to me.
And, the world building is just great fun. It's very inspiring and stimulating too but it is time consuming.


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## Atrak (Feb 9, 2010)

HidesHisFace said:


> There aro two main problems with fan-fics:
> First - they lack the flexibility, freedom given to the writer. If you want a good fan-fic, you have to keep your story as close to the canon as possible.
> Second - fan-fic is never entirely you work, it is placed in someone else's world and/or with someone else's characters. You always have to give a credit to the author of universe and characters you use.
> 
> ...


 
Right, and wrong. While it is a fan-fic, it's YOUR fan-fic. You can change it however you want. Yeah, you have to give the author of the inimical world credit, but so? Fan-fics are more for fun and practice than serious writing :/ . For example, in my Eragon ideas, the main character (my guy, not Eragon ) would either come from overseas, from a continent that I can build anyway I want to (the land where the humans or elves come from), or from another dimension, which I can make anything I want. Yeah, most of the story would take place in Alagasia. Your point? In my story, I actually add several major geographical locations, and rework the magic system, adding a whole new level  .

Like I said before, it's like starting with a prefabricated world and characters. Prefabbed doesn't mean they're set in stone.

You're right, though, worlds are fun to make. Some people just need a starting point  .


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, you still have to stick to basic rules of each universe unless your intention is causing rage among other fans, especially those who are... Let's say - conservative. 

And when it comes to own universe - it's not really that hard.
The most important thing is decision about kind of universe. Is it dark? Is it heroic? Is ist sci-fi, fantasy and what kind of it? Then put some really basic details about races, geography etc. Nothing really detailed. Something like: "oh, these guys live on desert, and these in the forest area and are good at trading". There is no need to hurry. You do not really need super-complete universe to write stories in it. You can develop it while writing. In fact, writings are good test of certain ideas - if they works as they should or are climatic etc.
While writing you can change almost everything - your universe evolves with you. It is just as flexible as you want. 
My own universe started as quite simple, cliche as hell fantasy universe but ended up as much darker kind with elements of steampunk and futuristic version.


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## Atrak (Feb 9, 2010)

HidesHisFace said:


> Well, you still have to stick to basic rules of each universe unless your intention is causing rage among other fans, especially those who are... Let's say - conservative.
> 
> And when it comes to own universe - it's not really that hard.
> The most important thing is decision about kind of universe. Is it dark? Is it heroic? Is ist sci-fi, fantasy and what kind of it? Then put some really basic details about races, geography etc. Nothing really detailed. Something like: "oh, these guys live on desert, and these in the forest area and are good at trading". There is no need to hurry. You do not really need super-complete universe to write stories in it. You can develop it while writing. In fact, writings are good test of certain ideas - if they works as they should or are climatic etc.
> ...


 
Quite true, although I don't really care if people rage at my writings  . Your universe...reminds me of the Girl Genius comic (girlgeniusonline.com). I might be interested in reading it, as I like that sort of world.


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 9, 2010)

That comic looks really interesting - I'll give it a try if I find enough free time (after exams that is).
However, as far as I see, my universe is less technically advanced in standard version (not counting Rain of Blood century - something like our WWII or Cold War times when it comes to technology and futuristic setting). Technical stuff is just a twist, not a core.


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## panzergulo (Feb 9, 2010)

I have been reading this thread a few days now. When I first saw the title, I thought I would reply immediately. Then I sat down and discovered that actually I was unable to do that. Because of some of the weirdest reasons, I don't think I or my writing really sucks that much. I guess I like too much what I'm doing.

Anyway, after thinking a few days I am now able to tell why I suck.

My grammar, vocabulary and use of varying structures and phrases seriously lack. It's due to the fact that English isn't my native tongue. I am writing in my second language, and while English looks pretty easy at first glance, heck, when you get down and dirty with it, it's pretty horrible language, full of little potholes and hooks that catch me time after time. So yeah... as long as I am writing in English, my writings never can reach my true voice, which would be a voice that speaks in Finnish. Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language in the Uralic language family, while English is a Germanic language in the Indo-European language family. As you can see (or learn, if you don't know about relationships between languages) my first and second language are pretty much as far as two language can possibly get while still staying inside the same continent. Good luck with that... I feel retarded when time after time I am unable to combine the right pre- and postpositions with certain verbs, or I overuse some phrase because I don't know other phrases, or write horribly repetitive text because I don't know enough synonyms for certain nouns. Yeah... My English sucks.

Then, another thing in my mind... I get easily depressed because of community interaction. While I am always positively surprised when I gain readership, I get easily depressed when I lose readership. I have on ongoing series which gained a lot of readership awhile ago... then, I had a short pause, during which I had time to post a new episode only once per week or once per two weeks or so... and now, when I have time and motivation to write again and I submitted a few episodes, I find out only half of the readers I was used to have returned to the story. Now I have the time but don't feel motivated.

I get depressed because of lack of feedback too. While I might have maybe two or three commenting readers, their comments rarely really satisfy me. I have once received a real piece of analysis as feedback and I felt really good about my writing for several days. These "nice story" -comments doesn't do that. It's nice that people like the stories, but they could tell why they like the stories. How am I supposed to improve with my writing if everybody just tells they like the stories and they are good? I can't even remember when was the last time I received negative feedback. I write first for myself, that is true, but still... improving oneself is always good.

Yup. That's about that. I think I am a mediocre storyteller, that is, not below nor above average, who can't really use the full extent of the language of his stories and who gets depressed and confused because of the human factor. It's nice to read my "writing is excellent" and I "could be a pro writer" (real quotes from the comments of my readers), but I would like to know why. If nobody can't give me the feedback I crave I would rather read a comment which tells my writing is horrible so I could stop writing and do something else.

Now I feel depressed again.

Last thing... writers are a pretty self-critical lot, aren't they? There's quite a few writers here who I have read and they say the most horrible things about their writings in this thread. You're all wrong... your writings are great. Just saying...


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## Atrak (Feb 9, 2010)

It's our job. We wrote them, so know what we were trying to achieve, and where we failed it. Others don't know what we're thinking and don't see any problems.


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## KyleAwesome (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, I guess I'll chime in! My problems are mostly typical - inconsistent motivation, constant revisions and general insecurity about my writing. I've been working on a story, and I've got almost three parts sitting here that I have yet to post. Every couple of days I'll open them up and make some revisions, but I only have a vague idea if they're making the story better or not. 

When it comes to the actual writing, I still struggle with conveying the emotion I'm looking for in a scene. One of the first stories I wrote on here was telling too much - spelling the scenes out for the reader. Now, I think I'm showing too little out of fear of repeating those mistakes. 

On a lighter note, I'm also too easily tempted to drop in an obscure reference to a LOST episode somewhere in whatever I'm writing.


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## Atrak (Feb 9, 2010)

KyleAwesome said:


> Well, I guess I'll chime in! My problems are mostly typical - inconsistent motivation, constant revisions and general insecurity about my writing. I've been working on a story, and I've got almost three parts sitting here that I have yet to post. Every couple of days I'll open them up and make some revisions, but I only have a vague idea if they're making the story better or not.
> 
> When it comes to the actual writing, I still struggle with conveying the emotion I'm looking for in a scene. One of the first stories I wrote on here was telling too much - spelling the scenes out for the reader. Now, I think I'm showing too little out of fear of repeating those mistakes.
> 
> On a lighter note, I'm also too easily tempted to drop in an obscure reference to a LOST episode somewhere in whatever I'm writing.



Kyle, what game is your avatar from? I've seen it somewhere...a Japanese game in which you have to do scribbles to cast spells/attack/interact/etc. I can't remember the name, though.


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## Xipoid (Feb 9, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> Kyle, what game is your avatar from? I've seen it somewhere...a Japanese game in which you have to do scribbles to cast spells/attack/interact/etc. I can't remember the name, though.



Okami


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## KatmanDu (Feb 9, 2010)

Number one problem, and one that I seem to share with others, is finishing what I started. The Thursday Prompts were starting to help break me of that, but... well... you guessed it, I haven't kept up with them. I'll blame work, I'll blame prior commitments; anything but myself. Easier that way.

Number two, consistency in longer works. Because I have trouble finishing what I start, I work on them in chunks and bits; and it's gonna take a lot of editing to make the chunks and bits flow smoothly. (Wow, that just sounds wrong. Anyway.)

Number three, repeating myself. I'll come up with what I feel is a particularly clever turn of phrase and beat it to death in different stories. Or just a word. If I use "volition" one more time in something, beat me to death with it. Solution: Thesaurus. I feel I have a fairly large vocabulary, but I can never find the word I need when I need it.


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## Altamont (Feb 9, 2010)

Vocabulary can be something of an issue for me, too. i tend to take the long way around, using vivid imagery to replace the words I can't necessarily think of in my head. This has pros and cons of course; I can flex my prosodic muscles quite well, but i also risk becoming too Dickensian, if you know what I mean. Example of my writing:

_      Raziel was running faster and harder than he ever had in his life, fleeing so quickly that he could barely feel the rain-slicked cobblestone beneath his feet. He ducked and weaved through the midnight shadows of the alleyway, dodging the clutter of refuse and broken down crates cast all about the narrow back-street. He had to tread as carefully as he did swiftly; the lamp-lights in the main roads had all been snuffed at midnight and the air was near pitch-black in the night. Only the pale rose glow of the skyâ€™s twin moons provided Raziel a reprieve from total blindness. He bolted his way through the labyrinth of the back alleys; his heart was pounding maddeningly in his chest, and his breath seemed caught in his throat. The soles of his bare feet ached against the stony ground; his legs burned as he forced them to carry on. Raziel was young, only eleven, and small still for his age. His short stride seemed as a snailâ€™s pace and, ahead of him, the shadowy corridor seemed to stretch out endlessly in to the night._

Now, I'm sure there are a myriad number of ways to truncate this to the bare essentials and still keep the tone of it intact, but how often i actually do that is a different story...


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## HidesHisFace (Feb 10, 2010)

KatmanDu said:


> Number two, consistency in longer works. Because I have trouble finishing what I start, I work on them in chunks and bits; and it's gonna take a lot of editing to make the chunks and bits flow smoothly. (Wow, that just sounds wrong. Anyway.)



Hm... This is the situation, where plan may come in handy. If you have trouble with remembering all you wanted to write in a long term, just quickly write it down in a form of a simple plan. 
If you have problems with unintentional changes of mood in your stories, merging parts after long break, I'd advice reading the older parts again so you can better feel the mood you wanted to keep.



			
				Altamont said:
			
		

> Example of my writing: (...)


To be honest, I think that this fragment is pretty good. It's quite detailed, atmospheric and shows the whole situation really well.


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## M. LeRenard (Feb 10, 2010)

@Altamont:
I think it's more an issue of redundancy or lack of clarity, which makes it seem a bit slow and verbose.  For example:


> He ducked and weaved through the midnight shadows of the *alleyway*, dodging the clutter of refuse and broken down crates cast all about the narrow *back-street*.


Is it an alleyway, or a backstreet?



> He had to tread as carefully as he did swiftly; the lamp-lights in the main roads had all been snuffed at *midnight* and the air was near pitch-black *in the night*.


You said midnight before, so there's no need to reiterate that this is taking place 'in the night'.

Just to give two.  If you cut back on those kinds of things, it'll sound a lot smoother.


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## Tyvara_Panther (Feb 10, 2010)

@Altramont: All comments are given with the best of intentions. I hope this helps.
I broke the paragraph into chunks so I could dissect it easier.
One big block of text is hard to read, and it forces the eye to scan to the end. Smaller paragraphs move the story quicker, because it's not so overwhelming, which also entices more people to read in the first place.  Three to four _complete_ sentences is best for stories.



> Raziel was running faster and harder than he ever had in his life, fleeing so quickly that he could barely feel the rain-slicked cobblestone beneath his feet.


  This is a very passive sentence, with lots of excess words. Was and had oftentimes pacify the action in a sentence, remove the was.
How does he _barely_ feel the wet cobblestone? How does he not slip? He's running faster than ever in his life -- if he's not paying attention, he runs a greater risk of slipping. It's the same reason they tell you not to run at a pool. Especially if he's barefoot, because then he has no traction at all
Suggestion:
Raziel ran faster and harder than ever before. So quick, the rain-slicked cobblestone beneath him flew by in a blur.



> He ducked and weaved through the midnight shadows of the alleyway, dodging the clutter of refuse and broken down crates cast all about the narrow back-street.


   Alleyways are typically shadowed, so I don't think he could duck and weave between the shadows, unless he's running through multiple alleyways. If not, where are the lights to create the shadows that he's ducking and weaving through?
Also, it's been stated that it's an alleyway, a narrow back-street doesn't do anything to enhance where the MC is, therefore it could go. When you replace a repeated word, try to describe it so that something new is added.
Suggestion:
dodging the cluttered refuse and broken crates cast as careless obstacles in the dark. 



> He had to tread as carefully as he did swiftly;


    Why does he *have* to? If he has to move carefully, then why did he only 'barely' notice the wet streets before? Also, this really doesn't tell me much about how he's moving. How does this character move carefully and swiftly? What about his movements reflect that he's careful? Nothing about his movements thus far make me believe he's moving with care. More like a bat outa hell. So without a greater insight into how he's careful, it's been established that he's moving fast.



> the lamp-lights in the main roads had all been snuffed at midnight and the air was near pitch-black in the night.


   If this is the case, there is no way he could duck or weave between shadows, since it's all in shadows. Light needs to exist for there to be a difference in shadows.



> Only the pale rose glow of the skyâ€™s twin moons provided Raziel a reprieve from total blindness.


 pale-rose needs a hyphen. Complex color names need them. I like the twin moons. I wonder what makes them reddish.
I have a soft spot for space. ^^



> He bolted his way through the labyrinth of the back alleys; his heart was pounding maddeningly in his chest, and his breath seemed caught in his throat.


   Him 'bolting' doesn't imply careful either. Also, it's been established that he's running through the alleys, the first part could go, because the repetition doesn't enhance anything -- other than to hint that the MC maybe getting lost. If that's the case, describe the sensation of getting lost in a maze, instead of reiterating the alley.



> The soles of his bare feet ached against the stony ground; his legs burned as he forced them to carry on. Raziel was young, only eleven, and small still for his age.


   Ah! He is barefoot. I thought so. I wouldn't have guessed he was young though. The language and descriptions thus far has implied a much older mindset. I'd suggest mentioning immediately that he's eleven. That would prevent the reader from forming a picture of the MC that's wrong, and could add to the plight of his flight through the alleys. I mean, what could this little eleven-year-old done to cause him to run in such a panic. That's much more impacting straight out of the gate.



> His short stride seemed as a snailâ€™s pace and, ahead of him, the shadowy corridor seemed to stretch out endlessly in to the night.


    Seemed is weakening this sentence. His short stride seemed as a snailâ€™s pace -- to who? If it's to himself, loose the seemed. Make it personal. Crack that little head open and figure out why he believes he's running so slow. This is a great place to draw the reader into the MC's mindset.


I will say this little paragraph was intriguing, especially once I'd figured out that the MC is a little kid. It makes me want to know what he's running from, and how it all started. Which is good. It makes me want to read more.
The biggest issue I see is repetitiveness.
I hope there's something useful here.

Take care and keep writing,
Tyvara


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## Altamont (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks a lot! What you guys said makes a lot of sense  It's almost like looking up the lyrics for a song: if you're looking yourself it's a little complicated, but in retrospect it all seems really obvious 

I think I tend to try too hard for ambiguity, and it hurts the introductions to my stories. I think I'm good at counterbalancing it with tonality and atmosphere, but to be excellent at both is my latest goal


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## ZeroDrawn (Feb 15, 2010)

What an interesting topic, though a difficult one for me to properly respond to. In general, I don't know many other writers and my work has experienced very limited exposure, so the amount of feedback I've experienced in my lifetime has been very slim - most of my writing development has come through constant roleplaying that progressed through my teenage years. The people that have seen my work tend to unanimously enjoy it - but does that mean it's as good as they say? I don't know. I'd like to think so!

Because of the fact I write purely for pleasure and have such little exposure, I rarely think about where my writing necessitates improvement. I definitely share one of the common issues - inability to finish a story. In my case, it seems to be because by the time I've gotten rolling on a story, 20 new ideas have popped into my head and I'd rather write about them. It's very difficult for me to maintain interest on one tale. I wonder if I could find more success with a focus on short stories alone?

Opposite to those who self-edit too much, I hardly edit at all. Anytime I get a first draft of something done, whether it be a single chapter or a short story, I never go back to revise it. I don't have the patience for it. I believe if I attempted to, I wouldn't even know how. Perhaps this is an instance of me allowing fear to keep me from improving my work?

I honestly wish I had a better idea of where my work stood, but I don't actively attempt to improve it. When I'm reading stuff I like, I seem to just absorb the things I like and start seeing some of that in my own writing. 

I guess you could say I've never written a story of such significant length that I'd be more able to spot my failings in the long term. D: Oh dear...there could be a ticking time bomb of a mess under that pile of letters in my head, and I wont know it's there until it explodes and messes everything up! ;____;


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## nybx4life (Feb 17, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> So... where do the rest of you guys fall short?  Lay out your problems in the hopes that in so doing, you'll find a solution to them.
> And if you want to give advice to someone else, feel free.  That might give the thread more life, and the gods know the Bloc could use more life.



Well, as for you, I'd say focus yourself to do, say three sequential scenes with no more than three characters (I do not mean one character per scene, I mean use the same characters for each scene) That should help you buckle down more to have a specific focus.

My issue, I believe (aside from self-confidence) is that I feel I don't do well with scenery, or a character's voice. I have written stories before, but I don't feel I come off strong enough at times.


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## Atrak (Feb 18, 2010)

ZeroDrawn said:


> What an interesting topic, though a difficult one for me to properly respond to. In general, I don't know many other writers and my work has experienced very limited exposure, so the amount of feedback I've experienced in my lifetime has been very slim - most of my writing development has come through constant roleplaying that progressed through my teenage years. The people that have seen my work tend to unanimously enjoy it - but does that mean it's as good as they say? I don't know. I'd like to think so!
> 
> Because of the fact I write purely for pleasure and have such little exposure, I rarely think about where my writing necessitates improvement. I definitely share one of the common issues - inability to finish a story. In my case, it seems to be because by the time I've gotten rolling on a story, 20 new ideas have popped into my head and I'd rather write about them. It's very difficult for me to maintain interest on one tale. I wonder if I could find more success with a focus on short stories alone?
> 
> ...



I too barely edit. The most I do is usually just a single proof-read for grammar and spelling, and usually after I finish the entire work. I don't think of it as fear, though. I believe it is more eagerness to get started on the next one  .


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## nybx4life (Feb 19, 2010)

HidesHisFace said:


> There aro two main problems with fan-fics:
> First - they lack the flexibility, freedom given to the writer. If you want a good fan-fic, you have to keep your story as close to the canon as possible.
> Second - fan-fic is never entirely you work, it is placed in someone else's world and/or with someone else's characters. You always have to give a credit to the author of universe and characters you use.
> 
> ...




That is not entirely true. It is possible in which to create a fan-fic that, although is placed in the setting, can feature an entire cast of original characters, may refer to events in the canon series or not, and have canon character cameos.


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## Shara (Mar 6, 2010)

nybx4life said:


> That is not entirely true. It is possible in which to create a fan-fic that, although is placed in the setting, can feature an entire cast of original characters, may refer to events in the canon series or not, and have canon character cameos.




Very true.

I helped start a role-playing group/fan-fic site that was very loosely based on an existing sci-fi series, but only used that as a beginning point of reference.  

The planets, characters, plots and scenarios were all original - with only occasional references to canon characters for some background info.

As far as my input on the "I suck" part, my main complaint I have with my work is that I don't have the patience to write a long story.  I stick to scenes/short stories.


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## bluedrache (Mar 7, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> I too barely edit. The most I do is usually just a single proof-read for grammar and spelling, and usually after I finish the entire work. I don't think of it as fear, though. I believe it is more eagerness to get started on the next one  .



OBJECTION!

On the other hand, I'm one to constantly edit.  I go through a minimum of about five drafts.  The first one is usually handwritten and there's a full reading of the story by Microsoft Sam (or another TTS engine) looking for "wrong word, correct spelling" errors.  

I'm not scared to edit my work.  I know that the first draft is usually not the best, unless your name happened to be "W. A. Mozart".

So, I guess my faults would probably be some minimal presentation and assumption that the reader will get it.  I've been getting better, honestly, with more description, but I also know that it wouldn't take very much and I'd be letting loose with paragraphs of Tolkien proportions.  (Tolkien was bad for being long winded, but hey ... at least I'm not Robert Jordan.  )

Also, my writing stile does not lend itself well to prolificness (is that even a word?), what with all my edits.

Perfectionism... yeah.  That's probably what you'd call it, right?  I care to craft to the best of my ability... even at the expense of speed.


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## ScottyDM (Mar 8, 2010)

*I suck at the large-scale structure of a story.*

It used to be that I would have fascinating characters and an idea that crackles, but too often I'd write the wrong scenes. Mundane stuff. And the poor reader is left to imagine the the high-octane scenes. Unrealized potential isn't worth much.

But I've been working on it.


And I tend to overwrite. Little details that don't contribute to the story. For example my heroine will buy a dozen eggs, boil them all, then put them back in the carton and back into the refrigerator. Who cares? The hero is over at the heroine's for breakfast and he's poking in the refrigerator for something to eat.

The *real* purpose of that scene is that the heroine's roomie's boyfriend comes down to the kitchen wearing only a pair of boxers, grabs something out of the fridge, then runs back up stairs. It's the hero's reaction to him that's the whole point of the scene.

Eggs be damned!


My current novel-in-progress promises to be too long. My plot is uneconomical. Now I've heard that agents and editors prefer a first novel that's at or under 100,000 words. Longer books cost more to produce and a new author is a crap shoot. And an insanely great opening scene is no guarantee. When the agent or editor sees the story is 140,000 words they slip the manuscript, unread, back into the envelope and reach for a form rejection letter.

Even if I cut all the "egg details" I suspect the story will end up between 130,000 and 150,000 words. Unless I can think of something radical, I may have to finish this, set it aside, then write and sell something else first. I have identified a couple of sub-plots to the sub-plots that can go, but they're too darned interesting. And even if I cut them it'll still be too long.

Yea, I'm working on it.


S~


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## M. LeRenard (Mar 8, 2010)

bluedrache said:
			
		

> at least I'm not Robert Jordan.


Oh God, shoot me now. (Panzer knows what I'm talking about.)
Honestly, long-winded doesn't have to be a bad thing, if the author doing it is creative enough.  For example: I love _The Stand_ and _It_, both of which are pretty epic books.  Yet they go by so fast as you're reading them.  Mysterious, right?  I think it has to do with the fact that they have actual imagination behind them.  And I'm not just talking the plots or the characters or what have you; there's imagination in the *language*, which is just as, if not more, important.  But when you've got people like Jordan (God rest his merry soul, poor fellow) basically dishing out 12,000 pages of clichÃ©s, augh... it's enough to break the heartiest warrior.



			
				ScottyDM said:
			
		

> And I tend to overwrite. Little details that don't contribute to the story. For example my heroine will buy a dozen eggs, boil them all, then put them back in the carton and back into the refrigerator. Who cares?


See, as long as you don't draw that scene out, those are the kinds of details I think should be in every story.  Honestly, writing is writing, and if not for these little odd moments, you're treading ground that's been tread before.  So if I were you, I wouldn't shy away from things like this.  I don't see this as a weakness, honestly.  Unless, you know, you're dragging these scenes out for far too long.  One or two sentences is exactly enough.  But by all means, don't get rid of your story's personality to cut your word count!


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## ScottyDM (Mar 9, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> See, as long as you don't draw that scene out, those are the kinds of details I think should be in every story.  Honestly, writing is writing, and if not for these little odd moments, you're treading ground that's been tread before.  So if I were you, I wouldn't shy away from things like this.  I don't see this as a weakness, honestly.  Unless, you know, you're dragging these scenes out for far too long.  One or two sentences is exactly enough.  But by all means, don't get rid of your story's personality to cut your word count!


That's kinda the direction I'm leaning.

That particular bit may have been marginal. The hero sees a carton of eggs in the refrigerator, removes them, and suggests fried eggs. The heroine tells him they're all boiled, which results in a half-page discussion before the roomie's BF appears and interrupts. I've cut it to: The hero sees the carton of eggs, removes them from the refrigerator, and the roomie's BF appears and interrupts. :roll: 


Practically speaking, I'm probably better off _choosing_ which scenes to write, and then leave in my little personal touches. The bigger waste of space is writing the same thing in two different scenes just so the reader is sure to "get it". Or worse, being sloppy and taking three scenes to do the work of one. I suspect K.I.S.S. is more efficient when applied to the large-scale structure of the story.

My goal/style is to be light and breezy and quick to read, but then pack the story with these little gems, Easter eggs, and situational humor--like wanting a fried egg, but discovering they've all been pre-boiled by your too-efficient girlfriend. :-? 

S~


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## jinxtigr (Mar 9, 2010)

Oh, I don't suck- there aren't any annoying little habits I notice about myself.   
After all, if there were, you'd find them in every sentence- and you wouldn't be able to get away from them- and they'd haunt you- and turn up every few words- or two- know what I mean?
Oh no no- no- there's nothing that plagues me- there's no stylistic quirk that feeds off my sense of dialogue flow and grows into a goddamn word cancer.
But you know- if I thought about it- which I hope I don't- just possibly, I might think of something?
Something annoying- and constant- and- and-
augh! 
(hehehehe)


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## ScottyDM (Mar 9, 2010)

And I write too much.


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## M. LeRenard (Mar 10, 2010)

ScottyDM said:
			
		

> My goal/style is to be light and breezy and quick to read, but then pack the story with these little gems, Easter eggs, and situational humor--like wanting a fried egg, but discovering they've all been pre-boiled by your too-efficient girlfriend.


Okay, yeah.  That's what I mean.
If it were me, I'd have the hero pick up the carton of eggs, go try to crack one into a pan, discover it's already been boiled, make a weird face in the general direction of his girlfriend, and then the BF comes down the stairs.  Really, that tells the reader absolutely everything he needs to know, and then you can move on to other matters without even a word of dialogue.  You could do it in one sentence.


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## Fere (Mar 10, 2010)

I tend to over elaborate more often than not. I can also become rather robotic. Strange really, because when I was at secondary school my English teacher used to say I never used to write enough. My 'extended writing' was never extensive enough! And now I find myself writing thousands of words a day for my book. With that has come problems, as I look back at huge chunks of the stuff and think 'what the hell! I didn't even need that bit, or that bit, or that bit'. Self-editing and scrutiny (merciless scrutiny) on my own part is something I need to improve on.


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## Nylak (Mar 10, 2010)

I suck so much my editor is now pretty much writing my graphic novel himself.

Beat that.

Argh. >_> *shakes fist at self*

General plot type stuff I'm golden, it's the details I have issues with.  Specfically, I can't write captivating yet brief dialogue or incorporate situational humour or witty commentary into the action script or dialogue, all of which tends to help the medium I'm working in. If anyone has tips, I'd love you forever. But I'm not expecting much (I know, it's something better learned through practice, or requires a natural skill).


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## panzergulo (Mar 10, 2010)

Nylak said:


> Specfically, I can't write *captivating yet brief dialogue* or incorporate *situational humour or witty commentary into the action script or dialogue*, all of which tends to help the medium I'm working in. If anyone has tips, I'd love you forever. But I'm not expecting much (I know, it's something better learned through practice, or requires a natural skill).



What's dat?

Really, had to read the bolded part thrice to get it... yeah, yeah, I see what you mean... Mind you, not pointed towards you... but I have noticed some have problems with micro-scale writing. The overall plot might be good, but the dialog and action are pointless, illogical or irrelevant. For some, it's more of a matter of style... but if the intent is to tell a story, yeah, captivating yet brief dialog and little bit of humor here and there would be good.

I can't really give any "rule of thumbs" or anything, as I don't really have any kind of method I write with... maybe it just comes naturally to me, I dunno. At least people say my dialog works well. But some ways to learn good storytelling might be watching movies and reading novels and short stories by other writers. Some think reading too much affects your style... I don't believe it. The more stories and movies you consume, the blurrier the influences get. Particularly new movies are good, as the modern reader's mind is awfully short-spanned. The first few paragraphs must be dynamite and the story must not drag or bore the reader.

I don't know about other people, but when I'm writing, I sort of "watch" a movie in my mind, then try writing what I see and hear as accurately as possible. The characters in the story are like actors, and the narrator is like the camera, showing different things and leaving some things hidden. Maybe I've watched enough movies in my youth to be able to do this, or maybe I just have that kind of imagination... but it seems to work. I have some very few, but still, existing frequent readers... and most of my writing is general rated fantasy.

Storytelling isn't so easy, when you really think about it. One of the reasons why I hate when people say "I can't draw, so I started writing". Not meaning to downgrad drawers at all... but writing stories has those one thousand and one little hooks and potholes of it's own.

Final words: Practice and experience. It's hard work, but in the end, if you enjoy storytelling, it'll pay back in some form or other.


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## jinxtigr (Mar 10, 2010)

Nylak said:


> Specfically, I can't write captivating yet brief dialogue or incorporate situational humour or witty commentary into the action script or dialogue, all of which tends to help the medium I'm working in. If anyone has tips, I'd love you forever. But I'm not expecting much (I know, it's something better learned through practice, or requires a natural skill).



How much do you READ? If you don't read- fuggettaboutit!!

You should be reading tight dialogue, funny witty stuff, entertaining literature, if you expect to be writing it. That's why I (at least for now) gave up visual arts and cartooning. I wasn't short on work ethic, but I didn't do it for fun and I didn't read comics much either. Instead I was eating books like tictacs. I've been in the middle of three books at once when I was flustered and craving distraction.

Just like artists develop in their head a way to sense how the line must go to be just right- you develop through reading and understanding your character, a similar way to sense if there's a good tight line for the character. It usually won't be well written in the sense of 'literate' or have an interesting structure- it'll just be the right thing they would say.

Usually can't improve those by picking at 'em


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## Nylak (Mar 10, 2010)

panzergulo said:


> Particularly new movies are good, as the modern reader's mind is awfully short-spanned. The first few paragraphs must be dynamite and the story must not drag or bore the reader.


I like that idea.  I've never really consciously thought of movies as being a good source of inspiration/style influence, but I guess it makes sense; the two really aren't that different.



panzergulo said:


> I don't know about other people, but when I'm writing, I sort of "watch" a movie in my mind, then try writing what I see and hear as accurately as possible. The characters in the story are like actors, and the narrator is like the camera, showing different things and leaving some things hidden.


I do that myself as well, though it's almost required of me to do so since I'm quite literally "illustrating" what is to be observed rather than describing it.  Which is cheating, in my opinion.  XD  I respect authors that can paint a scene in my head with words alone. 



panzergulo said:


> Storytelling isn't so easy, when you really think about it. One of the reasons why I hate when people say "I can't draw, so I started writing". Not meaning to downgrad drawers at all... but writing stories has those one thousand and one little hooks and potholes of it's own.


This is very true.  Before I used to wonder why artists and writers collaborated for comics/graphic novels, when writing was a staple of my childhood and I used to indulge in storytelling quite a bit.  Then I realized I had no natural skill in it, and I was definitely fooling myself.  There are good writers, there are good artists, and there are few people who are both, and there are _many_ people who are neither.  XD  

But unlike visual art (which you can totally be trained in), I personally feel that a skill for writing is something you really just need to be born with; sure, it can be improved upon with study and experience, but you need to have a natural voice.  I'm rather envious I don't seem to have that.



jinxtigr said:


> How much do you READ? If you don't read- fuggettaboutit!!
> 
> You should be reading tight dialogue, funny witty stuff, entertaining literature, if you expect to be writing it. That's why I (at least for now) gave up visual arts and cartooning. I wasn't short on work ethic, but I didn't do it for fun and I didn't read comics much either. Instead I was eating books like tictacs. I've been in the middle of three books at once when I was flustered and craving distraction.


Oh, I read all the time, no worries about that.  XD  Obsessively, almost.  I admit I didn't read many comics until I was contracted to create one, and even then I pretty much focused on them for visual reasons--to see how paneling worked, text arrangements, you know the deal.



jinxtigr said:


> Just like artists develop in their head a way to sense how the line must go to be just right- you develop through reading and understanding your character, a similar way to sense if there's a good tight line for the character. It usually won't be well written in the sense of 'literate' or have an interesting structure- it'll just be the right thing they would say.
> 
> Usually can't improve those by picking at 'em


I don't have trouble getting in touch with my characters so much--when my editor writes their dialogue or suggests a course of action, I can always tell right off when it's uncharacteristic of the individual to do so.  I just have trouble creating those lines myself...or at least making them entertaining.  I think I'm a lost cause.  XD  I will try to focus on...not dwelling on the "literal" aspects of the work, though.  That might be an issue with me.


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## Xipoid (Mar 10, 2010)

Nylak said:


> But unlike visual art (which you can totally be trained in), I personally feel that a skill for writing is something you really just need to be born with; sure, it can be improved upon with study and experience, but you need to have a natural voice.  I'm rather envious I don't seem to have that.




That does seem somewhat true in that you can be trained to a point and natural talent is a big factor. I always believed it had something to do with how one thinks or speaks; however, I also believe that one can be trained quite far with the proper techniques and dedication.


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## M. LeRenard (Mar 10, 2010)

Nylak said:
			
		

> But unlike visual art (which you can totally be trained in), I personally feel that a skill for writing is something you really just need to be born with; sure, it can be improved upon with study and experience, but you need to have a natural voice.


Naaahhh... I don't buy that at all.  From my point of view, everyone starts off being utterly terrible at writing, and everyone has to do the same years' worth of practice to get the skill.  Obviously there are exceptions, but exceptions never figure into things like this anyway.
Everyone has a natural voice; the trouble comes with trying to incorporate it into the writing.  That's what comes with practice; not the voice itself.  The voice comes from where you live, how you grew up, who you know, your politics, religion, culture, your surroundings, etc. etc.


> Specfically, I can't write captivating yet brief dialogue or incorporate situational humour or witty commentary into the action script or dialogue, all of which tends to help the medium I'm working in.


At this point, my technique for things like this is to write what makes me chuckle.  Maybe that sounds weird, but it seems to work.  Adding in asides or peculiar but relevant similes.  Here's one example from my novel:


> The place was silent, like a coal cellar during the off-hours.


That makes me chuckle, because, you know, when are the on-hours for a cellar?  So it's an exaggeration meant to drive the point home that this place is *really* quiet, but said in a much better way than just out and out stating, "The place was *really* quiet."
Coming up with things like that doesn't take so much practice as it does thought and consideration.  What practice will get you is the ability to come up with them more quickly.  At least, that's how it's been for me.  Where you get them is from your own personal experiences.  I thought of a coal cellar because the house I'm living in has one, and I know how quiet it is down there with the door closed.  You just have to think about it, and when you come up with something you like, put it in.
So far as dialogue is concerned, yeah, read books, watch movies, and most of all, listen to the way people actually talk to each other.  Dialogue in writing is a stylized version of that.


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## Altamont (Mar 10, 2010)

I've found that dialogue, good dialogue I mean, can be one of the hardest things to grasp; there's just so many factors that contribute to it, and so much of it is dependent on story. For example, if I were writing a script for a play that involved absurdist themes similar to Waiting for Godot, it might go something like this:

A: When's the train going to arrive?

B: The train?

A: Yes, the train.

B: How would I know when the train's to arrive? Don't you know the time?

A: My watch is broken and there aren't any clocks.

B: Nothing. But you'll know the time, at least

The dialogue there is slightly disjointed, realistic enough but with an air of structure and flow that's the slightest bit dreamlike. But in another genre of story, say, noir for example, an entirely different process could be used:

"You told me last night that you'd seen Mr. Renard at the corner of 14th and Lexington, at the _Cafe de Paris_. You told me that he and Mason had been there at noon and left around two, isn't that right?" The gulp in Junior's throat was an audible one.

"Yeah, yeah, that's right, that Cafe. Whaddya getting at, Wolfe?"

"What I'm getting at, Junior, is that you're lying to me. And I know you're lying to me because Renard hasn't been in town for a week and Mason was just found washed up on the goddamned shoreline! And the coroner says he's been dead at least three days. So spill you son of a bitch: What's really going on in this town?"

The dialogue here is much more in depth and, I think, more suited to the story...

Sorry, I'm ranting to myself in a public forum....I guess what I'm getting at is that for me, it's not enough to know _how_ people talk, but _why_ they should be talking the way they are. Not necessarily only in regards to the characters themselves, but within the entire structure of the story.

And don't even get me started on vernacular...


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## jinxtigr (Mar 11, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> Naaahhh... I don't buy that at all.  From my point of view, everyone starts off being utterly terrible at writing, and everyone has to do the same years' worth of practice to get the skill.  Obviously there are exceptions, but exceptions never figure into things like this anyway.
> Everyone has a natural voice; the trouble comes with trying to incorporate it into the writing.  That's what comes with practice; not the voice itself.  The voice comes from where you live, how you grew up, who you know, your politics, religion, culture, your surroundings, etc. etc.



Absolutely. It's a little mysterious where a voice comes from- the first time I had any idea I should write was in high school. I'd been reading a lot, and I was a very weird, feral kid trying to pass for human. I had a stress level that would kill a bull moose, and there was this one creative writing class and one teacher, a guy named Warren Carberg, a profane, thoughtful, gentle man who read some of my assignments and became certain that I could write. He told me, not to find a voice, but that I had one and I should write.

That was enough to start with, and I felt I was Hemingway or possibly Lafferty, and I was off and running with naive glee. I did suck, but I still had a voice, and I fixed what I could.

More than twenty years, more than four distinct unfinished chunks of novels, and three completed novels later, I now have some degree of practice. And now that I've done a daily webcomic, I have a sense of discipline- and an unending glee that I don't have to draw pictures except in words. 

I realize this doesn't sound like a post in an 'I Suck' thread, but I don't think self-criticism alone will get any of you anywhere, so it seems like a weird thread to have- like trying to impress your juggling peers by telling them all the things you've dropped on your toes, to show them you're humble. Humble or not, the point is to keep throwing shit in the air and catching it, and your faults aren't what make you a writer. Harlan Ellison is a writer, and he's not humble at all.

You're a writer when the spark catches and you start to write with passion for the tale. Everything else is just market segments, and refining your craft through repetition and distillation. Sucking doesn't stop you being a writer, so go and write something anyway


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## Orvayn (Mar 17, 2010)

> You're a writer when the spark catches and you start to write with  passion for the tale.



amen and praise da LAWD

You, sir, have just revealed one of the biggest keys to writing.  The other biggest (lololol) is editing.

Someone who writes with only passion is doomed; someone who writes with only journalistic precision is doomed too.  A good writer is one who writes with passion, then shoves it all away and edits objectively.

(Generally speaking, of course; every time you try to put laws on writing, you learn that your favorite author does the opposite, right?)

And yeah... dialogue is one of the things I struggle with.  I generally know what I want people to say, but presenting it in natural dialogue, augmented with effective narration, has always been a difficult process.  I find that if I just shut up and write, it works much better; I can always touch it up in the revision process.

My biggest issue is that, when I'm juggling numerous conflicts, I often feel as if I'm having difficulty appropriately measuring the character's thoughts and reactions.

Bleh.  That sound familiar to anyone?


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## jinxtigr (Mar 17, 2010)

Ah, but there's a catch, which applies to music as well (in fact, most or all creative exploits)- popularity is never the absence of error, it's soul and your ability to connect with a market (or audience, if that sounds better).

You do editing in music too- for instance, comping together bits of tracks for a final take. It's really easy to fixate on absence of error (for instance, in vocal pitch) and throw out a bit with personality because it contains a mistake. To do killer editing, you don't simply seek and throw out all mistakes, you seek the big picture and throw out everything- including GOOD stuff- that doesn't contribute. In music mixing you'll hear the really marquee guys often being totally uninterested in whether a particular sound is a 'good' sound, interested only in what 'serves the song', even though they rarely can explain what that means, exactly.

I guess for writing it would be serving the story, or possibly serving the audience. I know I usually have to serve several masters, among them myself.


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## Orvayn (Mar 17, 2010)

All true.  Maybe I wasn't specific enough, though.  I didn't mean editing for mistakes (which is a given), but editing for story, meaning you have to tighten and bring out the character arcs, add/develop conflicts, etc.  People often think that such things are only a part of the first draft, but with me, at least, that's way wrong.

Also:  I do orchestral composing and synthesizing myself and find that it greatly parallels writing.


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## Alexis (Mar 24, 2010)

I suck coz I have no formal training in writing beyond secondary school and coz I get distracted by games too easily.  I'm also prone to subconsciously mimicking the styles of writers who I admire, luckily I read people who are disparate enough in their style that you can recognize them straight off and eliminate the infection!


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## Fere (Mar 24, 2010)

Alexis said:


> I suck coz I have no formal training in writing beyond secondary school



I've always been a firm believer in the fact that good creative writing comes from experience, practice and from one's own imagination and versatility. I'm not saying creative writing courses and education is bad/useless... but it should never be seen as a barrier in any which way if you haven't attended classes like that.



Alexis said:


> I'm also prone to subconsciously mimicking the styles of writers who I  admire



I know that feeling, my goodness! I often used to classify myself as a non-discriminatory sponge, unconsciously sucking out ideas from other peoples' work and finding myself on the verge of plagiarism. In order to stop it plaguing myself, I still read, but a lot lot less than I ever used to and looked for different things in a work. I had to start seeing it differently. I am still afraid of the 'sponge' label. It's a difficult thing to overcome. It's a case of looking through peoples' storylines/characters and seeing *stylistic* ideas etc.. instead of entire plot ideas and set-ups.


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## Orvayn (Mar 24, 2010)

Alexis said:


> I'm also prone to subconsciously mimicking the styles of writers who I admire



That's a good thing.  As you write, you'll blend your favorite authors' styles into your own style.


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## Atrak (Mar 24, 2010)

Orvayn said:


> That's a good thing.  As you write, you'll blend your favorite authors' styles into your own style.



Hmmm...I removed the relevant quote from my sig...


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## ScottyDM (Mar 25, 2010)

The problem with writing is _not_ that everyone can do it, but that too many are unable to judge good writing from bad, particularly when it comes to their own efforts.

We hear accomplished singers and musicians, which gives us something to judge ourselves against. Then we open our mouths and when a sound that resembles a toad croaking comes out, we know. We need practice before we can call ourselves a singer.

We see the work of accomplished artists, which gives us something to strive for. Then we pick up a pencil, paintbrush, or crayon and when we produce something which resembles the refrigerator art in a house full of preschoolers, we know. We need to practice before we can call ourselves an artist.

So why is it that because we learned to write our names in grade school, and we text our friends every day, that we believe we can tell a compelling story or spin a well-tempered sentence as well as any of the pros? Dudes, we need to practice.

One way to learn is to do it over and over, and to read the works of professionally published authors. Not just a few favorite authors, but many authors in different genres. We need the diversity because many professionally published authors suck at, at least one aspect of writing. And when learning what people today are reading, stick to what is being published today. Basing your work on 200-year-old classics, or even 50-year-old classics will teach you archaic writing styles, punctuation, and word usage.

A budding guitarist can do the same--listen to a bunch of guitarists and try to emulate them. But that can take a long time. A short cut is to find a teacher, or buy a DVD, or find a guitarist who is willing to show you a few licks.

Likewise with learning to write well. If you know you have trouble with punctuation then get a book on punctuation. Or take a class at a local college. Or do something. But check that the book or course or DVD is relevant to the style of writing you want to do. Someone who wants to concentrate on rock guitar probably shouldn't take take lessons from a classical teacher. Likewise if you want to write as if your readers live in the 21st century you should check your teacher's credentials to see if they teach as if their students live in the 21st century. Fossils still exist.

Oh, and join a critique group. Online or in person you will learn a lot.


The guy who sucks at large-scale storytelling,
S~


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## Poetigress (Mar 25, 2010)

ScottyDM said:


> One way to learn is to do it over and over, and to read the works of professionally published authors. Not just a few favorite authors, but many authors in different genres. We need the diversity because many professionally published authors suck at, at least one aspect of writing.



Very true. This is also the problem with, as someone said earlier in the thread, cutting back on your reading because of being afraid of unconscious imitation. The more diversity and variety you have in your reading, and the more of it you do, will ensure that you're not strictly mirroring one author's style or concepts.



> And when learning what people today are reading, stick to what is being published today. Basing your work on 200-year-old classics, or even 50-year-old classics will teach you archaic writing styles, punctuation, and word usage.



Also true. That doesn't mean don't read them, of course, but don't automatically assume that just because somebody got away with ten pages of lavish description back in the 1900s or whenever means that today's readers will wade through it.

(On the other hand, there is _Pride and Prejudice and Zombies_... but I don't see anyone repeating that gimmick successfully.) 



> But check that the book or course or DVD is relevant to the style of writing you want to do. Someone who wants to concentrate on rock guitar probably shouldn't take take lessons from a classical teacher.



Mmm... yes and no. I think we have to know our intended genre/style well and be familiar with what the readers' expectations are and so forth. Every style does present different challenges, so it helps to find materials that are geared in whatever particular direction you're trying to go. On the other hand, though, I've learned quite a bit from books on screenwriting, articles on genres I don't write in like mystery or romance, etc., so I wouldn't automatically discount that sort of thing, as long as you're not investing a huge amount of time or money in it.



> Likewise if you want to write as if your readers live in the 21st century you should check your teacher's credentials to see if they teach as if their students live in the 21st century. Fossils still exist.



I'd say, check teachers' credentials generally. I don't do much in the way of classes, but (while this isn't the majority) I have run across various books on writing written by people who... well, don't seem to write much of anything other than books on writing. Which gets a little suspicious. I'd rather learn from people who not only know what to do, but actually do it on a regular basis.

And again, while I don't have any experience in formal writing classes, I would advise sf/f writers to make sure ahead of time that they're not going to be getting constant grief from their professors about writing fairies/spaceships/animal-people, etc. I do still hear horror stories about budding genre writers encountering teachers who are determined to break them of writing genre fiction. 9_9 I wouldn't want to waste my time or money on that kind of crap.



> Oh, and join a critique group. Online or in person you will learn a lot.



*nods* Fair warning, though:

1) Good critique groups are hard to find, so be prepared to invest time and effort in finding one that's the right fit. Ideally, you need other writers who share your goals, so if you're intent on getting published, find others who will judge your work in that light and encourage/push you as needed. If you just want to write for yourself, look for something more low-key that will focus more on the text and less on how saleable it might be. 

I know some say "well, we're all just trying to write a better story, no matter what we're going to do with it," but in my opinion, writing for publication is still a different animal that requires a different kind of analysis.

2) You will learn more from critiquing others' stories than you will ever learn from having your stuff critiqued. That's not to say you won't get helpful crits on your own work, but don't expect critique to take the place of a writing class or other instruction. What's going to really make a difference is learning how to take a story apart and figure out why it works or doesn't, and what fits and what doesn't, and once you start to learn that, you'll be better at editing your own stuff, too.


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## M. LeRenard (Mar 25, 2010)

ScottyDM said:
			
		

> Someone who wants to concentrate on rock guitar probably shouldn't take take lessons from a classical teacher.


Not true!  Branching out to and getting advice from writers of different genres is one of the best ways to improve the way you write in your genre of comfort.  You'll always find something of use in other genres, and if you're clever, you can put those into your own genre to enhance it and give it a fresh feel.  Otherwise you're just sitting in a box you refuse to come out of.
It makes me think of a lot of artists who tell themselves that because they're going for a cartoon style, they don't need to learn proper shading and anatomy, because those kinds of things are used for more realistic works.  Little do they know, if they only stick to drawing flat cartoon figures, they'll end up stuck in the same mediocre style they started with.  Maybe it's not having a sense of perspective (character faces might look unfocused at irregular angles), a sense of depth (foreshortening?  What's that?), or a sense of motion (only capable of drawing characters who just stand there).  Whatever it is, by focusing in the beginning on one particular style, the artist is missing out on a lot of techniques that would vastly improve his art, simply because he hasn't branched out enough to find them.
Same goes for writing.  Fact is, you can never know what you might find in another genre that you could use in your own, so you shouldn't focus until you know all you need to know.
Of course, eventually, you should focus on something.  Jack of all trades, etc.


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## VÃ¶lf (Mar 27, 2010)

ScottyDM said:


> The problem with writing is _not_ that everyone can do it, but that too many are unable to judge good writing from bad, particularly when it comes to their own efforts.
> 
> We hear accomplished singers and musicians, which gives us something to judge ourselves against. Then we open our mouths and when a sound that resembles a toad croaking comes out, we know. We need practice before we can call ourselves a singer.
> 
> We see the work of accomplished artists, which gives us something to strive for. Then we pick up a pencil, paintbrush, or crayon and when we produce something which resembles the refrigerator art in a house full of preschoolers, we know. We need to practice before we can call ourselves an artist.



I harp about art all the time!  

Good art is easily recognizable; you can tell when someone can draw a circle and when they can't, let alone tell the difference between some of the top artists on FA vs. the lesser ones. There is quite a visible difference.

And too, art is far better appreciated than good writing is. One quick glance at a pic and O.O WOW OMG THAT'S AMAZING!!! Writing takes commitment to reading and requires at least a bit of thought to visualize the scene.

Lastly, words are words. It takes a fair amount of reading someone's writing to tell how skilled he/she is with them. With just a simple glance, all you see is more words, the same as everywhere else you see them. The reading and the thought is what makes it.



M. Le Renard said:


> Not true!  Branching out to and getting advice from writers of different genres is one of the best ways to improve the way you write in your genre of comfort.  You'll always find something of use in other genres, and if you're clever, you can put those into your own genre to enhance it and give it a fresh feel.  Otherwise you're just sitting in a box you refuse to come out of.
> [stuff about artists]...
> 
> Same goes for writing.  Fact is, you can never know what you might find in another genre that you could use in your own, so you shouldn't focus until you know all you need to know.
> Of course, eventually, you should focus on something.  Jack of all trades, etc.



The word of the Lord, Amen. Taking bits and pieces, things from all genres and putting them into yours can make your writing soar to new heights. I mean if you think about it, say your writing a mystery and the hero gets romantically involved... romance, right there. A little experience with it will go a long way.



Poetigress said:


> Very true. This is also the problem with, as someone said earlier in the thread, cutting back on your reading because of being afraid of unconscious imitation. The more diversity and variety you have in your reading, and the more of it you do, will ensure that you're not strictly mirroring one author's style or concepts.



Haha, yes. And reading I don't do very much of, sadly and ironically.




> Also true. That doesn't mean don't read them, of course, but don't automatically assume that just because somebody got away with ten pages of lavish description back in the 1900s or whenever means that today's readers will wade through it.
> 
> (On the other hand, there is _Pride and Prejudice and Zombies_... but I don't see anyone repeating that gimmick successfully.)


I just finished the Scarlet Letter recently, and if anyone tried to submit a novel like that to an editor today, it wouldn't get a second glance. Classic lit styling like that just don't cut it anymore.

And last, on to the critique groups...



> 1) Good critique groups are hard to find, so be prepared to invest time and effort in finding one that's the right fit. Ideally, you need other writers who share your goals, so if you're intent on getting published, find others who will judge your work in that light and encourage/push you as needed. If you just want to write for yourself, look for something more low-key that will focus more on the text and less on how saleable it might be.
> 
> I know some say "well, we're all just trying to write a better story, no matter what we're going to do with it," but in my opinion, writing for publication is still a different animal that requires a different kind of analysis.
> 
> 2) You will learn more from critiquing others' stories than you will ever learn from having your stuff critiqued. That's not to say you won't get helpful crits on your own work, but don't expect critique to take the place of a writing class or other instruction. What's going to really make a difference is learning how to take a story apart and figure out why it works or doesn't, and what fits and what doesn't, and once you start to learn that, you'll be better at editing your own stuff, too.


Yahoo! XD


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## Poetigress (Mar 27, 2010)

VÃ¶lf said:


> Lastly, words are words. It takes a fair amount of reading someone's writing to tell how skilled he/she is with them. With just a simple glance, all you see is more words, the same as everywhere else you see them.



Eh, I don't know... When I look at someone's work on FA, it generally only takes a few paragraphs, at most, to give me a good idea of whether they know what they're doing -- or at least, to find out if it might be worth my time to stick around and read the rest. 

Then again, I know that, as a reader, I get turned off easily by writers who can't string one sentence after another in a competent way, regardless of how good the larger-scale aspects of the story (characters, concept, etc) may be. If I can't lose myself easily in the story early on -- if clumsy mechanical issues keep reminding me of the text -- it just doesn't work for me. But I know others aren't always that bothered by smaller-scale issues. *shrug*


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## panzergulo (Mar 28, 2010)

VÃ¶lf said:


> Good art is easily recognizable; you can tell when someone can draw a circle and when they can't, let alone tell the difference between some of the top artists on FA vs. the lesser ones. There is quite a visible difference.
> 
> And too, art is far better appreciated than good writing is. One quick glance at a pic and O.O WOW OMG THAT'S AMAZING!!! Writing takes commitment to reading and requires at least a bit of thought to visualize the scene.
> 
> Lastly, words are words. It takes a fair amount of reading someone's writing to tell how skilled he/she is with them. With just a simple glance, all you see is more words, the same as everywhere else you see them. The reading and the thought is what makes it.



This might be a bit cynical look into the whole subject, but... I have an opinion about why visual arts might be more appreciated amongst furries than textual arts. Of course, the whole anthro thing works much better with pictures, as the look of the character is often very important to the viewer of the art, and many (most?) writers can't really write anthro characters. While they could do a bit of effort to build their world and characters, they rather write about "humans in furry costumes", that is, the characters don't differ from humans in any other way than by their looks. But, the other reason I had in my mind... Furry fandom as it is now is more or less web-based community, and many (most?) of the members are very young and sovereign internet-users. That sort of people don't really appreciate the beauty of storytelling. (ZOMG, I'd have to read, like, 10min!!!1! TL;DR) Or, more generally, TV, web and other modern media has made our audience very picky and used to instant gratification. It's easier and it requires less effort (and less brains) to view a picture, and if they read, they'd rather read some cheap word porn...



			
				Archetypical yiff story writer said:
			
		

> "Hi!"
> 
> "Hi!"
> 
> ...



What can we do? Sex sells. Even more so, if it includes a scene featuring some pet fetishes of the reader. An adult story with well-written characters, elaborate plot and at least some meaning in the sex scenes might attract some readers... but a story with no plot, one-dimensional characters and only sex scenes with some taboos and fetishes thrown in will attract more readers. The quality of the writing isn't so important.

This view to these things comes from experience. I have seen writers who have had serious issues with some basic things like spelling, grammar and, heck, basic sentence structure, gaining more attention than me, because they have written adult story using some very popular fetish. The instant gratification works both ways. The reader gets their five-minute word porn, the writer gets their audience without any effort, thus improving their skills as a storyteller doesn't seem so attractive option anymore.

One sentence sums it all: People crave for instant gratification and they don't care about good storytelling anymore.

That was all.


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## Nothing Too Interesting (Mar 28, 2010)

I think I'm too cliche, but I just don't know...
The problem is that I'm not sure what my glaring flaws are.


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## Murphy Z (Mar 29, 2010)

I decided to write the things I need to work on in a separate notebook. That way, I can look at it as I go through drafts (***=important):

Have characters make things happen

Make controversies - they have to decide

Be more descriptive ***

Better endings***

More anthropomorphic if applicable

More females

Characterization

Make more time to write ***


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## Nothing Too Interesting (Mar 29, 2010)

I have WordPad documents dedicated to the overall direction of the general plot, several short character descriptions, terminology and lore, in-depth setting description, and in-depth major character notes, along with my actual story...
Am I doing it right?


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## Beastcub (Mar 29, 2010)

i started a novel in the 7th grade and never did anything with it...

except base my fan name and fursuit off one of the characters :/

it got so big and so long and my grammer and tense and spelling suck so bad that i never found the time to sit down and sort it out enough to even post online let alone publish....


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## Atrak (Mar 29, 2010)

Nothing Too Interesting said:


> I have WordPad documents dedicated to the overall direction of the general plot, several short character descriptions, terminology and lore, in-depth setting description, and in-depth major character notes, along with my actual story...
> Am I doing it right?



I usually make it up as I go.

There is no right/wrong way.

Some ways may be more effective than others, but its whatever you're comfortable with that is usually best for you.


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## Scarborough (Mar 29, 2010)

I can't plot worth crap.

In both senses of the word. My plots are now mostly mundane and unexciting, and I can't write a story which I've extensively outlined. And I feel like I can write better stories if I do both of these things.

And it seems like the best work I do is when I'm just fooling around and not trying. When I get down to it and try to make something "thought-provoking" or "meaningful," I end up doing something terribly wrong. Usually in the form of overwriting or sounding too stilted, or like I'm trying too hard to conform to some set writing style.

I think that's a big problem I have. I read a lot and love what I read, so I try to imitate who I read, and it never works out (of course).


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## Nothing Too Interesting (Mar 29, 2010)

atrakaj said:


> I usually make it up as I go.
> 
> There is no right/wrong way.
> 
> Some ways may be more effective than others, but its whatever you're comfortable with that is usually best for you.


 
Thanks for the advice. 
I'm starting to feel a bit better about how I'm going about this.
It's flowing together rather nicely.


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## Altamont (Mar 29, 2010)

I've found that the only way for me to write anything is to just screw all of my nitpiking and just go for it. I'm really good at plotting and universe building, but it always takes me forever to start something.


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## DJ_KFX (Mar 30, 2010)

Scarborough said:


> I can't plot worth crap.
> 
> In both senses of the word. My plots are now mostly mundane and unexciting, and I can't write a story which I've extensively outlined. And I feel like I can write better stories if I do both of these things.
> 
> ...



I worked at a graphic design house for several years and I discovered a pretty predictable trend. Normally, when a client asks for "mock ups" (color schemes, layouts, fonts, etc) the artist generates 3. The first one is the one the artist likes the most, and most likely is the one that they will put the most "creativity" into. The second one is some kind of variation on the first, the artist gets a second opinion from others and makes some changes (usually not drastic), and does not spend *quite* as much time on it. The third is something COMPLETELY different and usually just tossed together in 10 minutes or so (no joke, I've seen it happen).
Now, when the three mocks ups are presented to the client...guess which one they pick 90% of the time? "Uh...what is the Third one, Alex?" DING! "You are correct!" 

You may love (just as an example) sci-fi and cannot get enough of it, absorbing everything like a sponge because you love the genre so much. But perhaps when you try your hand at writing sci-fi it just does not really hold together in a cohesive story? Maybe the recipe is missing an ingredient. But hey that is okay. On the other hand, maybe just for fun you write a slice of life type story with formulaic characters and a nice little "here is your lesson for the day" kind of plot, and lo and behold it is critically acclaimed (but you only spend a half day writing it with a bare bones outline). Does that mean you need to devote your life to writing in a genre you don't "love"? Probably not, but maybe you can just compare notes between the fundamentals of each story.

I'm not sure if I'm really making a point here *laugh*. I'm just trying to say that experimentation can be key to finding that formula that works for your writing and your style. Find the balance between what you like to write/read and what people like about your work.

I must apologize that I have not had a chance to read your work yet (or anyone else's yet doh!). I'm trying to make time for it. But lately I have very limited free time, and mostly I've been devoting that to my own writing (and working on writing).

~~
Just to try and keep my post on topic:
"I suck" at keeping things simple. The last 2 stories I've written have been in the 50-60 page range, and so far they have gotten positive feedback. But at times they felt like it was just describing this and then the next thing and then the thing after that and then this happened....etc. I like to be as descriptive as I can, but I just don't know if I can write a *short* story lol! I have tried to write specifically short stories (5 pages?) but it just does not "feel" like it is coming across like I want it to...pff geez this post is already nearly a page long. 
I am trying to soak up all the tips and tricks I can from other writers. I try to be meticulous about my editing and formatting, but I guess that just takes time.

Another place I need to work on is character depth. I keep detailed outlines of my characters and their personalities and motivations, but I think most of it gets lost in the translation from idea/outline to finished story. *shrug* But since I get mostly positive feedback, I guess I'm doing some of the right things??

BTW I go by Kiyofox on the FA pages, if anyone is curious about my works.


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## Scarborough (Mar 30, 2010)

DJ_KFX said:


> I worked at a graphic design house for several years and I discovered a pretty predictable trend. Normally, when a client asks for "mock ups" (color schemes, layouts, fonts, etc) the artist generates 3. The first one is the one the artist likes the most, and most likely is the one that they will put the most "creativity" into. The second one is some kind of variation on the first, the artist gets a second opinion from others and makes some changes (usually not drastic), and does not spend *quite* as much time on it. The third is something COMPLETELY different and usually just tossed together in 10 minutes or so (no joke, I've seen it happen).
> Now, when the three mocks ups are presented to the client...guess which one they pick 90% of the time? "Uh...what is the Third one, Alex?" DING! "You are correct!"
> 
> You may love (just as an example) sci-fi and cannot get enough of it, absorbing everything like a sponge because you love the genre so much. But perhaps when you try your hand at writing sci-fi it just does not really hold together in a cohesive story? Maybe the recipe is missing an ingredient. But hey that is okay. On the other hand, maybe just for fun you write a slice of life type story with formulaic characters and a nice little "here is your lesson for the day" kind of plot, and lo and behold it is critically acclaimed (but you only spend a half day writing it with a bare bones outline). Does that mean you need to devote your life to writing in a genre you don't "love"? *Probably not, but maybe you can just compare notes between the fundamentals of each story.*
> ...



I'll have to keep that in mind. Esp. the bolded part. I think part of my problem is that I feel like more hard work must be put into something in order for it to be "better." Even though the labor theory of value is completely insane. I don't know. It's hard to judge if something's good while you're writing it, maybe.


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## soulrage (Apr 5, 2010)

90% of what I write is mi9d vomit. Its poetry mostly or lyrics. I still tend to write to a rythem or riff pattern. Its habit from my days in metal bands. But my biggest flaw is that it takes a major emotional event to really get me to write.


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## Aeturnus (Apr 5, 2010)

I suck at finishing a project. Several times I'll start a novel and love how it's coming out, but after so many words, I'll either begin to hate it, lose interest, get stuck, run out of ideas, and/or another idea will bitch slap my current idea out of the way. It's frustrating.

I also suck at dialogue. Even when one character uses bad grammar and the other doesn't, I can't help but to think they sound the same, and when I go back and change a few things around, it sounds like I'm trying too hard.


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## sunandshadow (Apr 5, 2010)

Scarborough said:


> I can't plot worth crap.
> 
> In both senses of the word. My plots are now mostly mundane and unexciting, and I can't write a story which I've extensively outlined. And I feel like I can write better stories if I do both of these things.


That's pretty much what I'd say about my own writing.  Well, not that my current plots are mundane are unexciting.  If I just sit down and start writing, it tends to have no plot at all besides a bit of romance and maybe some people trying to manipulate each other.  I have pretty much no chance at producing a meaty interesting plot without outlining, so I started outlining.  More specifically, I decided to make a list of all the story ideas I've had over the years and use the snowflake method to write a synopses of each.  Results?  For at least a third of my ideas no plot beyond an opening situation ever occurs to me.  Some make it to the middle of the plot art, but then no ending suggests itself; irritatingly, the most interesting ones always seem to end up stuck in this category.  About 10 I managed to more-or less complete - but then I realized 4 were minor variations on the same plot.  x_X  Writing the same plot over and over isn't any better than writing plotless fluff.  The other completed ones have other problems.  Two strike me as too damn boring to actually write, one has a weak ending and two weak places in the middle, one's more like a series of unrelated events than a thematically unified novel, etc.

Overall, my main current problem is that I can find an online group which critiques plot synopses and allows adult content.


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## Slingblade_47 (Apr 5, 2010)

I can sometimes find it quite difficult to come up with the right words to use when I want to get across a particular point. When away from the story I know what exactly I want to write and visualize certain happenings and quotes in my head, but when it comes to getting them on the screen, a lot of this can suddenly disappear unless I've noted it down. And then, I do sometimes worry about the use of the language in the story becoming repetitive - although before I upload my work I spend a while proofreading it for mistakes and inappropriate repetition.

Because my social skills are not particularly good, it can take me quite a while to play out the conversations that take place in my stories - especially as in doing this, I try to keep to the respective personalities that I've decided that I want my characters to have. I also worry about having characters speak in a similar style or use similar wording in their sentences, since I do fret that this might make them look monotonous or come across as the same character in another's body. But then, I've seen this in a lot of the books I've read - am I maybe trying a little too hard?

In deciding on the plots that I want the story to follow, this requires a lot of my thought and attention, especially if there is to be a subplot as well as the main events. With the story I'm writing at the moment as part of a trade with an artist at Eka's Portal, it has taken me a very long time to plan out exactly what I want to write about and I've gone over a lot of possible ideas to add to the very thing that inspired the basic idea in the first place - which in this case was a picture produced as part of another trade he took part in. Even as I started to write it, ideas were still growing at a manic pace, and settling on which ones I want to go for can take some time. It's four chapters long at the moment, and I haven't even given his character an active part yet.


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## kitreshawn (Apr 6, 2010)

Ahhahahahaha!

I tend to procrastinate a lot before writing.

And I think I try to proof read too soon, getting caught up in details before I am finished with the story's first draft.

Also my pacing is a bit (often very) slow.


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## darkr3x (Apr 6, 2010)

I think my problem main is that i'm too ambitious...I try to convey concepts that I don't really have a complete wordly grasp of yet purely because they sound really good clanking about in my mind as ideas and so they come off as half baked, or even cliche' at times.

The other, lesser problems are technical things:i try to put waaay too much in one sentence and i have a terrible time getting dialog to flow correctly around narration.


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## Incandescense (Apr 8, 2010)

Ah, this is gonna be fun! My first post is me flaming myself, I hope I'll be able to gain something out of it~

My characters are way too freaking flat, and not in the chest area, more along the lines of as far as their actual _character_ goes. Man I really messed up with Nix, why'd I have to make her a walking paradox, nothing she is makes any sense, argh! Why am I too lazy to research!? Why God, why!?
Silf, you're slowly fading out of existence because I made you too stupid to exist!
I like you Soma, but for an alien stuck in a robot you could at least take a punch you pansy, you also don't make any sense, throw away that rifle and shoot some freaking laser beams out of your hands!
No matter how hard I try _*I can't make fight scenes exciting enough*_!
Most of my cast happen to be girls, it isn't a gender problem, so why can't I convince myself of that?
There must be something horribly wrong with my story because no one ever says anything at all whenever they read it, I can read my view count you know!
Tiana, I know you're the coolest character in my entire story and you happen to be a cat but I gotta stop milking you, for content that is.
I have ruined Alice, why did I have to make her so freaking crazy, why!?

Yes, as you can see I have the most trouble with getting character in. I don't want to spend way too much time shoving in a character's reasoning but my only fan seems to have trouble understanding their logic. My character has tons and tons of past behind them that I just have such a hard time communicating their stories through words in such a way that they're not flooded with text. A little here and a little there also doesn't seem to cut it much either because I don't know how to cut my portions. It helps when I sort of draw things in but I also make my super powerful characters too easy and archetypal. I'm also always afraid of treading on some sort of stereotype although thankfully all of my characters _seem_ to be pretty original but they all keep trying to hook up, all of them!

Alex and Constello love Salazar (two girls like one guy, not two guys like one guy, the common love triangle), Soma digs Reido, Chili digs Nix, Kurtis digs Maka, Silf admires Chili, the only person who doesn't like someone is Poseidon, and that's because the only person he loves is himself!
Oh, and Tiana and Orion, the only two furry characters I'm relatively proud of aside from Kurtis. And Poseidon. Heck, I love them all except for Maka.

They. All. Need. *Souls*!


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## panzergulo (Apr 9, 2010)

Incandescense said:


> There must be something horribly wrong with my story because no one ever says anything at all whenever they read it, I can read *my view count* you know!



"A view" doesn't mean that one person read your story. It means that one person hit the page, nothing more, nothing less. If they read the piece, is totally speculative. They might have just visited the page, read the first sentence on it and decided it wasn't what they were looking for. Or visited the page, saw that it was writing and not a picture, and closed the tab immediately.

If you get a lot of views but not comments, it means you're good at titling your stories and making thumbnails. ;Ã¾


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## sunandshadow (Apr 9, 2010)

Incandescense said:


> _*I can't make fight scenes exciting enough*_!


Not that I really write fight scenes myself, but, I've noticed that the exciting ones I've read are kind of like puzzles.  The opponent springs a trap or pull out some WTF ability, and it seems like the main character is stuck.  But then the main character come up with a creative use of the terrain, or psychology, or uses one of their own abilities in a new way, which rearranges the playing field, and both characters have to reevaluate and decide what to do next.


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## Incandescense (Apr 9, 2010)

@panzergulo
Putting aside my powerful case of paranoia that all sounds very, very logical~
Aside from that the only thing that bothers me are my painfully soulless characters, haw-haw~

@sunandshado
Interesting! Sounds a whole lot like D.B.Z kinda fighting, but on a far lesser scale, something I'd definitely use if my characters had nothing but wits and a good ol' broadsword, but my characters aren't just any old being. They're a group of super villains and super heroes fighting far lesser heroes and villains most of the time. They often find themselves combining over the top powers and blasting away scores of far lesser enemies for most of them are Security/Threat Level 50 (basically the top of their class) and their enemies are usually around 12~25. When they *do* fight someone worthy my mind goes a little eh. It's easy to think of an image or fifty that could show the sheer awesomeness of their battle but writing it can get incredibly exhausting and I end up forgetting what I was doing in the middle of describing one of my characters using their powers over electricity to transform themselves into a polarized magnet or another one of my characters  doing ten different things one after the other with his golden blunderbuss. Just talking about it makes me wanna do a fight scene, but I'm trying to cut back on it D:
Definitely sounds interesting in a duel sort of situation though and I think I will actually utilize such tactics when another duel sort of situation springs itself! (Thus far it has only been one and it was way too one-sided to get really imaginative)


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## Fere (Apr 9, 2010)

panzergulo said:


> If you get a lot of views but not comments, it means you're good at titling your stories and making thumbnails. ;Ã¾



I agree totally. Something eye-catching, yet relevant as a title will do wonders. Not to say that that in any way makes the content of said story good, but the imagination lies therein. 

First bite is with the eye, as once was said.


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## VengeanceZ (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm the best writer. Tell that and you will get motivated to finish something, in written format on a piece of paper or digitally on a computer using the program so called "Word" thus completing your life's achievement of trying "Writing". You can continue to expand on  your wonderful quest, to capture your audience with pure bliss of ecstatic writing from thy hand of artistic skill.


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## jinxtigr (Apr 9, 2010)

Then, once you've sucked like that for ten years or a few completed novels, you can get down to serious work


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## Toonces (Apr 13, 2010)

I've never understood the benefit in criticizing my own writing. It seems like the shortest route to diluting your own voice. I only let others criticize what I write, and for the most part I tend to trust them on what they say.


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## M. LeRenard (Apr 13, 2010)

I would think allowing others to dictate your style for you would be the shortest route to diluting your voice.  With self-criticism, you gain a measure of control by recognizing what you do and do not want.
It's good to take others' advice for a while, of course.  At some point, though, if you want to achieve a consistent style, you have to be able to examine your own works yourself with a critical eye.  Else be forever pulled to and fro by everybody's differing opinions.


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## Toonces (Apr 13, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> I would think allowing others to dictate your style for you would be the shortest route to diluting your voice.  With self-criticism, you gain a measure of control by recognizing what you do and do not want.
> It's good to take others' advice for a while, of course.  At some point, though, if you want to achieve a consistent style, you have to be able to examine your own works yourself with a critical eye.  Else be forever pulled to and fro by everybody's differing opinions.



Being able to examine your work to establish and maintain a consistent style is a simple editorial process, not self-criticism. I'm wholly aware of my personal style, and how to achieve it, but any attempt to critically dissect that style, or its products, would be ultimately fruitless. I can't guess how readers will interpret it, and neither can I objectively approach interpretation myself, considering my status as originator of the material. But I can still listen to others to understand what those interpretations ultimately are.

Postscript: Material you are sufficiently distanced from so as to have forgotten it can be approached from a critical standpoint, but considering the time involved, and the necessity of being an essentially different author than the creator of the work, the practice is ultimately trivial.


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## M. LeRenard (Apr 13, 2010)

> I'm wholly aware of my personal style, and how to achieve it, but any attempt to critically dissect that style, or its products, would be ultimately fruitless.


That's fine.  If you have a style you know works exactly as you want it to, and you wouldn't change a thing, this thread is simply not for you.


> Material you are sufficiently distanced from so as to have forgotten it can be approached from a critical standpoint, but considering the time involved, and the necessity of being an essentially different author than the creator of the work, the practice is ultimately trivial.


I guess I've always called that process of becoming a different author 'progress', or maybe 'evolution' if you want to put a neutral spin on it.  If you are the same author now as you were six months ago, ipso facto you are not getting any better (or worse, of course, but you see my point).  So for any author who's changing, it's not trivial, and in fact is very beneficial.


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## Toonces (Apr 13, 2010)

Just because you're changing as an author does _not_ mean you're getting better.


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## M. LeRenard (Apr 13, 2010)

Right.  Nor does it mean you're getting worse.  That's why I put out the word 'evolution'.

Moving on.  To bring it back on-topic, at least for the moment I'm completely shot on good ideas.  Or, at least, ideas that can be turned into workable stories.  I just get fragments that I can't build off of, and it's bugging the heck out of me.


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## Toonces (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm trying to write a guide on producing pulp and simply cannot get this idea from my head into words. I know exactly what I mean, and it's something I easily recognize in my writing and others', but every attempt to put the phenomenon into words comes up lacking.


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## Nothing Too Interesting (Apr 13, 2010)

M. Le Renard said:


> Moving on. To bring it back on-topic, at least for the moment I'm completely shot on good ideas. Or, at least, ideas that can be turned into workable stories. I just get fragments that I can't build off of, and it's bugging the heck out of me.


 
Oh! Something I can actually help with. 
I had that problem with my previous story. (Of course, there were many different reasons I abandoned that story...)
Though my writing is inexperienced, I actually have a very solid story to work with. (Though most if it isn't written anywhere, which considering my memory, may be a future problem.)
 Though some details elude me still, varying in degrees of importance, I have a clear outline for my writing.
Now, through personal experience, I've learned that though you may come up with the basic idea for a story, the actual inspiration may not hit you for awhile. Once it does, that's when ideas really start to pop up. The hardest part for me was placing them all together, and weaving a coherent plot line.
Just give it time is really all I can say.


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## Murphy Z (Apr 14, 2010)

Okay, we have plenty of writers (including me) who suck in various ways, I suggest a team up to make the worst story ever.

Since I'm bad at endings and don't put enough detail in, I'd need to find someone who at least has bad beginnings. I'm sure we can meet somewhere in the middle and have a bad plot.

Spelling, grammar, and word choice should be pretty easy to screw up. And remember: misplaced modifiers almost always make a story awesomely bad.

The story will either be hailed as "genius" and will make millions or can be used so people will pay not to read it. Or it can be sold to the government as a substitute for water boarding. How can you lose?

edit:

*> Renard's Secret Apprentice*

Where do I sign up?


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## Nothing Too Interesting (Apr 15, 2010)

Murphy Z said:


> *> Renard's Secret Apprentice*
> 
> Where do I sign up?


 
Heh heh...
You just have to sell your soul is all.

And for the bad story idea, why not just copy some final fantasy 7/some anime fanfiction? They're the masters of bad story writing.


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## darkr3x (Apr 15, 2010)

Murphy Z said:


> Okay, we have plenty of writers (including me) who suck in various ways, I suggest a team up to make the worst story ever.
> 
> Since I'm bad at endings and don't put enough detail in, I'd need to find someone who at least has bad beginnings. I'm sure we can meet somewhere in the middle and have a bad plot.
> 
> ...



Indeed! surely be it as simple as:
Throw up words
Arrange said words like those old magnet mad libs
????
Profit!

Sign me up XD


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## reian (Apr 18, 2010)

Well I haven't been here in a while*looks about at REx and curses for getting me interested again*

I Suck:
I can't create a long standing story.  Short stories I have handled.  Short stories that intertwine in some small way we are good with.  Making anything that is more 3 'chapters' Nope, not at all, no siree bob...So I suck.  Hurrah!


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