# Iran



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 15, 2009)

Ok, I've looked and there isn't a thread on here.

What are your views on the Iran situation? I understand Obama is on CNN at the moment, but I don't have access to it. I'm following the situation on Twitter, persiankiwi is tweeting live from Tehran and got the first pictures of the injured and killed up on twitpic.

The government have plainclothes in all hospitals, they've taken down the phone network and are blocking many internet sites. There are available proxies being retweeted so that Iranians have a chance to get internet access.

100 students from Tehran Uni have been confirmed as missing and there are numerous videos on YouTube of the violence.

I personally stand behind those who are working to get their corrupt government out of power, they are brave and courageous people. It's now being referred to as the "first Internet Revolution".



Update: Twitter has delayed their scheduled maintenance as they realise the importance they play for the Iranian people right now. Conventional media seems to have pretty much failed at getting the fast moving events out as they happen, Twitter is really coming into it's own here. @persiankiwi has had to stop posting updates for a while as they are in danger at the moment but they should be back soon hopefully.

Video of student protesters
Some amazing photos


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

It seems somewhat ridiculous to assume Iran's government is any more corrupt than those of our allies in the Middle East, Israel and Saudi Arabia. But I'll have to look further into this subject first.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jun 15, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> It seems somewhat ridiculous to assume Iran's government is any more corrupt than those of our allies in the Middle East, Israel and Saudi Arabia. But I'll have to look further into this subject first.


 
I don't mean to say there isn't corruption anywhere else, but I'm backing those protesters who are actually passionate enough to get up and do something about it in their country.


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## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

Man that is pretty terrible! Hopefully the violence won't spill over and ignite more wars. Maybe they could learn a lesson from America, back in 2000 we had the same problem and we didn't have to kill anyone for it.


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## Tycho (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Man that is pretty terrible! Hopefully the violence won't spill over and ignite more wars. Maybe they could learn a lesson from America, back in 2000 we had the same problem and we didn't have to kill anyone for it.



You're a troll.  You're a STUPID troll, but a troll regardless.  Of this I am sure.

Oh, and Iran can go to hell (or whatever the Muslims call it).

I'm just looking forward to the day when Iran and Israel annihilate each other.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Man that is pretty terrible! Hopefully the violence won't spill over and ignite more wars. Maybe they could learn a lesson from America, back in 2000 we had the same problem and we didn't have to kill anyone for it.



There weren't tens of thousands of peaceful protesters on the streets and they weren't shot down by pro-government troops. You weren't seeing democracy being stopped in it's very tracks. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the comparison.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Man that is pretty terrible! Hopefully the violence won't spill over and ignite more wars. Maybe they could learn a lesson from America, back in 2000 we had the same problem and we didn't have to kill anyone for it.



This is a very much different situation from the United States.


Personally, when thinking about Iran, I'm pretty sure the whole world knew Ahmadinejad was going to win. Hell even the population of Iran knew that Ahmadinejad was going to win. I'm pretty sure what steams the citizens off isn't so much that he won, but that he won in the first round of elections....by a landslide, this considering that polls had Mousavi and Ahmadinejad very close to each other. 

In all? Bad move by the Khomeni, the violence in Iran signifies something important: their educated, their middle class, and the upper classes are getting tired of the Khomeni way of controlling society. If he isn't careful, he just might have a second revolution on his hands, and one that isn't being fueled by anti-western rhetoric.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

Tycho said:


> You're a troll.  You're a STUPID troll, but a troll regardless.  Of this I am sure.
> 
> Oh, and Iran can go to hell (or whatever the Muslims call it).
> 
> I'm just looking forward to the day when Iran and Israel annihilate each other.


Iran doesn't have the capacity to annihilate Israel. The Israelis have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out the entire Middle East.

Moreover, it seems that this is about the recent Iranian election, yes?

So, my question is: Why does the rest of the world even _give a damn?_

I mean it. Unless the CIA decided to engineer another coup (as they have been known to do), this is just politics as usual in the Middle East, and should be summarily ignored.

...hmm--that _is_ a pretty big "unless", though, isn't it?


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## Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Man that is pretty terrible! Hopefully the violence won't spill over and ignite more wars. Maybe they could learn a lesson from America, back in 2000 we had the same problem and we didn't have to kill anyone for it.


You can't equate the results of the 2000 American presidential election with the one that recently happened in Iran. Doing so is incredibly naive at best.


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## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

ramsay_baggins said:


> There weren't tens of thousands of peaceful protesters on the streets and they weren't shot down by pro-government troops. You weren't seeing democracy being stopped in it's very tracks. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the comparison.



Well there were a lot of crazy things going on in the 90s, I mean you had the Waco, and then all those people in Oklahoma got murdered, I mean I kind of expected there to be more crazy radicalist murders and riots and stuff, but I am usually expecting the worst like that.

And now Obama is the President and there have been like 7 people killed? I don't think democracy works when people are willing to murder when their side doesn't win.



Tycho said:


> You're a troll.  You're a STUPID troll, but a troll regardless.  Of this I am sure.
> 
> Oh, and Iran can go to hell (or whatever the Muslims call it).
> 
> I'm just looking forward to the day when Iran and Israel annihilate each other.



You are advocating genocide and that makes me a troll? Man I just wish people would get along, why does that make me a troll?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Well there were a lot of crazy things going on in the 90s, I mean you had the Waco, and then all those people in Oklahoma got murdered, I mean I kind of expected there to be more crazy radicalist murders and riots and stuff, but I am usually expecting the worst like that.


I'm pretty sure those didn't have as much to do with the elections as they did with certain people at the time being bat-fuck insane, bub.



> And now Obama is the President and there have been like 7 people killed? I don't think democracy works when people are willing to murder when their side doesn't win.


Democracy doesn't work in a society where people are brainwashed into thinking their leaders aren't going to fuck them over regardless of whether their ties are red or blue. Your argument is redundant.



> You are advocating genocide and that makes me a troll?


He's not advocating genocide. That would require him hoping for one side or the other to emerge victorious.


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## Tycho (Jun 15, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> Iran doesn't have the capacity to annihilate Israel. The Israelis have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out the entire Middle East.



Hmm, you're right, Iran can't do it.  *sigh*  Still, we'd be rid of ONE problem country, at least.



drmaurelius said:


> You are advocating genocide and that makes me a troll? Man I just wish people would get along, why does that make me a troll?



You're a troll.  Your comparison between the 2000 Bush upset and this bullshit going down in Iran right now confirms it IMO.  I don't advocate genocide, I advocate getting rid of problematic countries and regimes.  And having 2 obnoxious, ornery and problematic countries going at it with one another is a beautiful solution, provided they don't drag you down with them.


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## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> I'm pretty sure those didn't have as much to do with the elections as they did with certain people at the time being bat-fuck insane, bub.



Uh I don't know if that kind of crazy goes away. 



Satan Q. Jones said:


> Democracy doesn't work in a society where people are brainwashed into thinking their leaders aren't going to fuck them over regardless of whether their ties are red or blue. Your argument is redundant.



Well if you think the system is broken what are you doing to fix it? I am on a first-name basis with most of the people in my town's board of selectmen and I write letters to my congress-folk, what do you do? I think someone said that we have the government we deserve and that's been pretty true as far as what I have seen.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> He's not advocating genocide. That would require him hoping for one side or the other to emerge victorious.



Ok, so he's advocating murder. Does that make it better?



Tycho said:


> You're a troll. Your comparison between the 2000 Bush upset and this bullshit going down in Iran right now confirms it IMO. I don't advocate genocide, I advocate getting rid of problematic countries and regimes. And having 2 obnoxious, ornery and problematic countries going at it with one another is a beautiful solution, provided they don't drag you down with them.



Dude we didn't have a clear-cut leader for like two weeks, but whatever I guess the point is moot since you're going to ignore everything that you don't agree with because I'm a troll.

Look, as much as advocating for mass destruction makes you super cool, that's completely not how it would go down. It wouldn't be contained, just Israel and Iran going at each other, as soon as missles were shot everyone with a treaty with either country would also go shooting off missiles. Since America sends so much money over to protect them we'd go against Iran, which would probably piss off a lot of other countries as well, especially muslim countries since they hate our guts anyway. 

Either way if you are so devoted to the idea of destroying those two countries, why not become a spy?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Uh I don't know if that kind of crazy goes away.


e.e
Neither does your kind of stupid.
I'm siding with Tycho on this one. You're a troll. Get off the forums.



> Well if you think the system is broken what are you doing to fix it? I am on a first-name basis with most of the people in my town's board of selectmen and I write letters to my congress-folk, what do you do? I think someone said that we have the government we deserve and that's been pretty true as far as what I have seen.


I gather information and wait for them to make the final mistake. Spend too much here, tax too much there...the economy's been getting really fragile these days, and I don't even think eight years of Obama's best plans will fix it. All it takes is the right mistake to break the entire system.

Something always happens when the rich stay rich and the poor become too poor. And as Jefferson wrote, when a government fails the governed, it is the citizens' constitutional right to amend their government, and their revolutionary right to overthrow it.

Unless you're sending your congressmen wads of cash in those letters, you might as well be praying to God. Both have the same amount of effectiveness.



> Ok, so he's advocating murder. Does that make it better?


He's advocating that two countries just blow each other up so it will stop being our problem.
As much as I loathe Israel, even this solution's _much_ better than genocide.


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## Bambi (Jun 15, 2009)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Ok, I've looked and there isn't a thread on here.
> 
> What are your views on the Iran situation? I understand Obama is on CNN at the moment, but I don't have access to it. I'm following the situation on Twitter, persiankiwi is tweeting live from Tehran and got the first pictures of the injured and killed up on twitpic.
> 
> ...


 
I think these people understand now that the United States isn't going to be some country-devouring leviathan, and want a leader who will represent a more moderate view of themselves, instead of a holocaust denial and radical Islam.

Interesting developments no doubt.


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## Aden (Jun 15, 2009)

Quick primer from *Tatsuma* over on Fark, for those who are not familiar with the situation or factions involved:



> Suppression of Dissent - The Players
> 
> Currently, there are either two or three groups who are suppressing the students on the ground that you'll read about throughout this thread:
> 
> ...



Obama has also taken his stance on the issue and is not declaring support to one group or the other. However, he's said that "I think that the ability to dissent without violence is a universal value that should be respected, when I see that, when the American people see that, I think they are rightfully troubled." This is probably the best thing he could have said, since declaring his support for the rioters on the ground would just give the current leadership more ammo.

Also, because it's an understatement, I requote:


> This is big.


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## Tycho (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Dude we didn't have a clear-cut leader for like two weeks, but whatever I guess the point is moot since you're going to ignore everything that you don't agree with because I'm a troll.



I didn't say anything about selectively agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said.  I'm still convinced you are a troll.



drmaurelius said:


> Either way if you are so devoted to the idea of destroying those two countries, why not become a spy?



I would happily settle for them BEHAVING.  Like, you know, Israel not pulling its expansionist bullshit, honoring the agreements they made, and Iran not rattling sabers and keeping nutcases like Ahmedinejad in power (he's only there because the mullahs want him there - they're the shadow-government-that-isn't-so-shadowed.) and pursuing the development of nuclear weaponry.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

Bambi said:


> I think these people understand now that the United States isn't going to be some country-devouring leviathan, and want a leader who will represent a more moderate view of themselves, instead of a holocaust denial and radical Islam.
> 
> Interesting developments no doubt.


I've never understood why holocaust denial is such a big deal.

So what if it's not in keeping with the facts? Neither is religion, but nobody demonizes world leaders for believing _that_ hogwash.
[sub]Well, on the whole. They only do it for specific faiths.[/sub]

Other than that, one can only hope.


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## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> I gather information and wait for them to make the final mistake. Spend too much here, tax too much there...the economy's been getting really fragile these days, and I don't even think eight years of Obama's best plans will fix it. All it takes is the right mistake to break the entire system.



I don't think even Obama will get eight or even four years. Someone is going to listen to all of the hate and do something that will break America apart. I hope and I pray and I even spend my weekends helping out with a homeless shelter in town but I just wonder if anyone cares anymore?



Satan Q. Jones said:


> Something always happens when the rich stay rich and the poor become too poor. And as Jefferson wrote, when a government fails the governed, it is the citizens' constitutional right to amend their government, and their revolutionary right to overthrow it.



Well yeah in New Hampshire they are actually bound by their constitution to overthrow the government if it starts misbehaving, but don't you think that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater? I mean this is a new era we're in, the fathers could not have guessed that we'd evolve into this sort of a society. I mean historically speaking we have only been at this "internet" thing for a gnat's lifetime, maybe we should see what happens to democracy when we have both a motivated populace and a method of organizing huge demonstrations without prewarning the government.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> Unless you're sending your congressmen wads of cash in those letters, you might as well be praying to God. Both have the same amount of effectiveness.



I think the people I voted for will do the right thing when the time comes, and so far I have not been dissapointed. If you are so callous with your government why don't you try living somewhere where participating isn't an option? There are good jobs teaching English in China, I here.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> He's advocating that two countries just blow each other up so it will stop being our problem.
> As much as I loathe Israel, even this solution's _much_ better than genocide.



Israel is a country, how can you hate a country? Countries are just bits of land separated by ideas.



Tycho said:


> I didn't say anything about selectively agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said. I'm still convinced you are a troll.
> 
> 
> 
> I would happily settle for them BEHAVING. Like, you know, Israel not pulling its expansionist bullshit, honoring the agreements they made, and Iran not rattling sabers and keeping nutcases like Ahmedinejad in power (he's only there because the mullahs want him there - they're the shadow-government-that-isn't-so-shadowed.) and pursuing the development of nuclear weaponry.



If I am a troll, why are you responding to my posts?

It would be nice if countries behaved, it would be nice if the people we elected stuck to their promises, and it would be also nice if my car was a '69 charger. What do these things have in common?

None of them happen by themselves. Peace is not the default, it's something that happens after a lot of work. Write letters, volunteer for non-profit organizations that bring aid to impoverished countries, try educating people on the matters that most concern you. In my case, I'm saving up money for that charger, and it's slow going. The point of the matter is nothing is going to change unless we work for it. Every one of us.

Or you guys could sit around in your houses, safe from the reprocussions of people dying halfway across the world, and continue to complain about how terrible the world is. I think I know the answer to this one, but I would rather you guys come to that conclusion on your own.


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## ramsay_baggins (Jun 15, 2009)

Aden, thanks for that post. There were reports of a _possible_ attack by Israel, but everything is unconfirmed. Though now would be the perfect time for them to attack. I hope it doesn't spill over because it would get very bad very quickly.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 15, 2009)

ramsay_baggins said:


> Aden, thanks for that post. There were reports of a _possible_ attack by Israel, but everything is unconfirmed. Though now would be the perfect time for them to attack. I hope it doesn't spill over because it would get very bad very quickly.



GOD, right now would be the worst time for Israel to attack. This is one of those instances where it's in the international community's best interest to stay out of the middle. At least until the situation changes.

I have to agree with Aden, this is big.


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## Sinister South Paw (Jun 15, 2009)

Honestly...was anyone expecting a real democratic election out of Iran? 

Don't act shocked, we knew they had a dictator in office long before he started rigging elections and censoring text messages/ the internet access.


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## CAThulu (Jun 15, 2009)

Bowtoid_Obelisk said:


> This is a very much different situation from the United States.
> 
> 
> Personally, when thinking about Iran, I'm pretty sure the whole world knew Ahmadinejad was going to win. Hell even the population of Iran knew that Ahmadinejad was going to win. I'm pretty sure what steams the citizens off isn't so much that he won, but that he won in the first round of elections....by a landslide, this considering that polls had Mousavi and Ahmadinejad very close to each other.
> ...




^^ This.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> I don't think even Obama will get eight or even four years. Someone is going to listen to all of the hate and do something that will break America apart. I hope and I pray and I even spend my weekends helping out with a homeless shelter in town but I just wonder if anyone cares anymore?





Spoiler



There is no God, and even if there was, prayer is useless.





> (Sound and fury, signifying nothing.)


Thomas Jefferson also said that new constitutions should be drawn up every 20 years precisely because society changes.
I don't think the 20-year timeframe is sufficient, but it's high time we wrote a new one.



> If you are so callous with your government why don't you try living somewhere where participating isn't an option?


Did it take you long to come up with that? I can tell you put a lot of effort into that remark.

My answer: I don't leave because I have just as much right to be here as you, if not more.

But, if I may say so myself, I do have more. Unlike you, I care about the American citizen, not the American government, and I don't confuse the two.



> Israel is a country, how can you hate a country? Countries are just bits of land separated by ideas.


You just answered your own question.
I hate the ideas that guide Israel's expansionist, terrorist-state actions.



> (Textual diarrhea.)
> I think I know the answer to this one, but I would rather you guys come to that conclusion on your own.


Sir, if you ever knew the answer to a question, it would be "What's the _wrong_ answer?"



Sinister South Paw said:


> Honestly...was anyone expecting a real democratic election out of Iran?
> 
> Don't act shocked, we knew they had a dictator in office long before he started rigging elections and censoring text messages/ the internet access.



Well, from what I understand, the _elections_ are basically democratic--or were, when he was first put in.

Choosing the candidates, however, isn't. That's the problem.


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## Irreverent (Jun 15, 2009)

Bowtoid_Obelisk said:


> In all? Bad move by the Khomeni, the violence in Iran signifies something important: their educated, their middle class, and the upper classes are getting tired of the Khomeni way of controlling society. If he isn't careful, he just might have a second revolution on his hands, and one that isn't being fueled by anti-western rhetoric.



And that might be exactly what they want.  This could be the start of a purge, one that will make the cultural revolution look like a walk in the park.  With the intelligentsia and the rising middle class gone or scared to ground, they can solidify their power base over the great unwashed and whip up support for another war with Iraq or Israel or.......


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## ~secret~ (Jun 15, 2009)

Post deleted, too tired for a debate.


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## Russ (Jun 15, 2009)

ramsay_baggins said:


> There weren't tens of thousands of peaceful protesters on the streets and they weren't shot down by pro-government troops. You weren't seeing democracy being stopped in it's very tracks. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the comparison.


 
Just a small correction, the protests have hardly been peaceful. Even in the first day there has been a lot of damage to properties (such as banks and public transports like busses) but I agree that it has not been violent in the sense of "protesters committing acts of murder and widespread looting" violent. I have been out all day and haven't had the chance to follow news but the police/military/secret police response seems to have been as disproportionate and violent as expected. Lots of innocent people who had nothing to do (and probably even voted Ahmedinejad) have also been hit by the wrath of the police. I wonder if that would only amplify the response.

You gotta keep in mind that what is driving the protesters right now is anger and a lot of it. After all the problems (economic and social) and oppression they swallowed up over the years, this (what they see as) blatant violation of the legitimate system has given them enough. And now that there has been a taste of blood, I wouldn't be surprised if things go downhill before they get better.

For what it's worth (and despite my cynicsm), I hope the protesters get what they want. Ahmedinejad, with his attitude, has been a negative influence over the country and a negative influence over the entire region. And if the protesters actually have the balls to stand up to the system in such manner (first since the revolution three decades ago) and keep the momentum, they deserve to get their demands.

Edit: Awww shit my post count has gone down.


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## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> There is no God, and even if there was, prayer is useless.



Man I wish I could be as cool as you. You're the sort of person that inspires social revolutions that inspire concerts dude.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> Thomas Jefferson also said that new constitutions should be drawn up every 20 years precisely because society changes.
> I don't think the 20-year timeframe is sufficient, but it's high time we wrote a new one.



So, I go back to that question I asked before, what are you _doing_ about it?



Satan Q. Jones said:


> Did it take you long to come up with that? I can tell you put a lot of effort into that remark.



Oh wow, sarcasm! On the Internet, how original. Your mother must be real proud of you.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> My answer: I don't leave because I have just as much right to be here as you, if not more.



Funny that, you don't. You haven't contributed anything positive to the discussion, and I'm willing to bet that you don't contribute anything in real life, either. You're a modern day Nero, content to sit and complain upon your fancy couches as the world burns down around you.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> But, if I may say so myself, I do have more. Unlike you, I care about the American citizen, not the American government, and I don't confuse the two.



The Government is made of American citizens, no matter what those crazy dudes say about Obama's birth certificate. It's people like you and me who want to make a change in the world, so they willingly accept things like long hours, no thanks, and low pay (compared to the private sector) and they go out into the world and they get stuff done.



Satan Q. Jones said:


> You just answered your own question.
> I hate the ideas that guide Israel's expansionist, terrorist-state actions.



That's a good thing, what are you doing about it?



Satan Q. Jones said:


> Sir, if you ever knew the answer to a question, it would be "What's the _wrong_ answer?"



Inaction, being content to just complain to an uncaring world and expecting someone else to pick up your slack. Not just for the question I asked, but like for most stuff out there. Once you get your own place you'll see what I mean.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 15, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> And that might be exactly what they want.  This could be the start of a purge, one that will make the cultural revolution look like a walk in the park.  With the intelligentsia and the rising middle class gone or scared to ground, they can solidify their power base over the great unwashed and whip up support for another war with Iraq or Israel or.......



I have a really hard time finding this would be successful, considering the 1989 Chinese crackdown had the trade off of continuing economic development. Iran's economy is biting a hard one and the citizenry isn't getting anything out of this crackdown. Iran already has its internal enemies, the Afghan-Pakistan cartels are already making things difficult, but they're making enemies out of their own people which will only lead to more extremism as demonstrated by the mosque bombing a few weeks ago.


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## Tycho (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> If I am a troll, why are you responding to my posts?



Why not? It's not like ignoring you will make you go away, anyway.



drmaurelius said:


> It would be nice if countries behaved, it would be nice if the people we elected stuck to their promises, and it would be also nice if my car was a '69 charger. What do these things have in common?
> 
> None of them happen by themselves. Peace is not the default, it's something that happens after a lot of work. Write letters, volunteer for non-profit organizations that bring aid to impoverished countries, try educating people on the matters that most concern you. In my case, I'm saving up money for that charger, and it's slow going. The point of the matter is nothing is going to change unless we work for it. Every one of us.
> 
> Or you guys could sit around in your houses, safe from the reprocussions of people dying halfway across the world, and continue to complain about how terrible the world is. I think I know the answer to this one, but I would rather you guys come to that conclusion on your own.



I'm not going to write letters to people who wouldn't give a fuck about what I had to say, assuming they even read those letters.  I'm not going to volunteer for non-profit organizations that bring aid to impoverished countries, because I think a fair amount of the aid we're throwing around is a waste for one reason or another - doesn't make Americans any less of a bunch of boogeymen to the rest of the world, to be sure.  I try educating people, they dismiss it as subjective ranting, I give up (and realize most of the time that they were right).  Educating, my ass.

Safe? Safety is a relative term to begin with.  And I will continue to complain, because it entertains me.


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## Irreverent (Jun 15, 2009)

Bowtoid_Obelisk said:


> I have a really hard time finding this would be successful, considering the *1989 *Chinese crackdown had the trade off of continuing economic development.



Uh, the cultural revolution took place decades before the Tienanmen Square massacre.  More like a Stalin-esque elimination of future threats/leaders than the squashing of a pro-democracy uprising.  



> Iran's economy is biting a hard one and the citizenry isn't getting anything out of this crackdown. Iran already has its internal enemies, the Afghan-Pakistan cartels are already making things difficult, but they're making enemies out of their own people which will only lead to more extremism as demonstrated by the mosque bombing a few weeks ago.



Sounds like all the more reason to do it. A manufactured crisis is a classic political move.


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## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

Tycho said:


> \I'm not going to write letters to people who wouldn't give a fuck about what I had to say, assuming they even read those letters.  I'm not going to volunteer for non-profit organizations that bring aid to impoverished countries, because I think a fair amount of the aid we're throwing around is a waste for one reason or another



If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. What's it like, living every day knowing that you are an obstacle to obtaining the things you want the world to be like?


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 15, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> Uh, the cultural revolution took place decades before the Tienanmen Square massacre.  More like a Stalin-esque elimination of future threats/leaders than the squashing of a pro-democracy uprising.



Oh I know the difference, but I don't exactly consider it the appropriate example personally. The Cultural Revolution relied on the very people that are rebelling against Iran's administration right now, which are students and members of the growing poor-middle class, which is why I decided to go with the Tiananmen crackdown instead, which I feel parallels this situation more. Plus the Cultural Revolution was more about Mao's ridding of perceived threats to his power from members within his own party, not necessarily a change in government where as Tienanmen was clearly a crackdown on a democratic movement. Either way, some form of crackdown is going on in Iran.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. What's it like, living every day knowing that you are an obstacle to obtaining the things you want the world to be like?


Brilliant! Because there are only ever two sides to anything, obviously!

*This is why you're dumb.*



drmaurelius said:


> Man I wish I could be as cool as you. You're the sort of person that inspires social revolutions that inspire concerts dude.


As well you should. After all, you're the sort of person who inspires people to kill their babies in the microwave, for fear of having them turn out like you.



> So, I go back to that question I asked before, what are you _doing_ about it?


Biding my time. Things haven't gotten bad enough yet for people to believe that the current Constitution isn't enough.



> Oh wow, sarcasm! On the Internet, how original. Your mother must be real proud of you.


Oh, did your IQ just shoot up 50 points?
Impressive. You're at an even 80 now.



> Funny that, you don't. You haven't contributed anything positive to the discussion, and I'm willing to bet that you don't contribute anything in real life, either. You're a modern day Nero, content to sit and complain upon your fancy couches as the world burns down around you.


First off, Nero was the emperor of Rome, moron. I'm not the President of the USA, so your comparison fails. I'm also not rich, and therefore don't own a "fancy couch."

Secondly, you don't seem to understand that I _want_ all of this to burn down. There is goodness here and there, but the majority of it's nothing but the garbage and filth of incompetence and megalomania.



> The Government is made of American citizens, no matter what those crazy dudes say about Obama's birth certificate. It's people like you and me who want to make a change in the world, so they willingly accept things like long hours, no thanks, and low pay (compared to the private sector) and they go out into the world and they get stuff done.


Hahaha...
Don't *ever* compare yourself to me, you worthless, mindless simpleton.
Proles work. Soldiers kill and die. Governments and executives profit. Entropy is the law of civilization, and no amount of letter-writing will change this. All you can do is clear everything and start over every so often.

When that time arrives--as it inevitably will, even if it's not in my lifetime--your letters won't mean anything. But that's okay, because they never did.



> That's a good thing, what are you doing about it?


Watching. Waiting. You aren't too bright, are you?
Throwing money at war only makes it more lucrative.



> Inaction, being content to just complain to an uncaring world and expecting someone else to pick up your slack. Not just for the question I asked, but like for most stuff out there. Once you get your own place you'll see what I mean.


Working at a soup kitchen, or whatever you said you do, won't make anything better for you either. There is no karma, only cause and effect.

I have my own place, by the way, and it's simply adorable how you think I don't work. I mean, everybody who disagrees with you _must be_ a welfare case, right?

Tell you what. Try arguing with me in about eight years, okay? Maybe then you'll know what you're talking about.


----------



## ~secret~ (Jun 15, 2009)

@drmaurelius - you suck, there's just no other way of putting it. Go fuck yourself with your opinions.

@topic - the situation in Iran is getting messy, etc. The UN should write an angry letter about it.


----------



## Torrijos-sama (Jun 15, 2009)

drmaurelius said:


> Well there were a lot of crazy things going on in the 90s, I mean you had the Waco, and then all those people in Oklahoma got murdered, I mean I kind of expected there to be more crazy radicalist murders and riots and stuff, but I am usually expecting the worst like that.
> 
> And now Obama is the President and there have been like 7 people killed? I don't think democracy works when people are willing to murder when their side doesn't win.
> 
> ...



You forget all those killed under the Clintons. Do some research on Whitewater. 
Plus, Obama's administration hasnt exactly been all flowery as of yet.


----------



## drmaurelius (Jun 15, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> You forget all those killed under the Clintons. Do some research on Whitewater.
> Plus, Obama's administration hasnt exactly been all flowery as of yet.



My argument was that the years leading up to the 2000 election were rocky, and that I was surprised that the giant argument over the presidency didn't combine with those existing conditions to result in greater social unrest than we had, not that democratic presidents are somehow free from getting blood on their hands.


----------



## Surgat (Jun 15, 2009)

*Everybody stop bickering and get back on topic.*


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 15, 2009)

jesusfish2007 said:


> You forget all those killed under the Clintons. Do some research on Whitewater.


Oh, you mean that time Hillary bought some swampland that really contained Aztec gold and had to have Vince Foster rubbed out so he couldn't rat, but then paid Kenneth Starr to say it was actually suicide and had OJ Simpson framed to take the eye off her?

I remember that. Still hilarious. Cool story, bro.
[sub]Oh, lordy, you people will believe _anything,_ won't you?[/sub]


----------



## AshleyAshes (Jun 16, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> Oh, you mean that time Hillary bought some swampland that really contained Aztec gold and had to have Vince Foster rubbed out so he couldn't rat, but then paid Kenneth Starr to say it was actually suicide and had OJ Simpson framed to take the eye off her?


 
*National Treasure 3:*
_The Hunt For Hillary's Gold_


----------



## Endless Humiliation (Jun 16, 2009)

Oh I walked into the 90's nostalgia thread better mosey on out now


----------



## Mayfurr (Jun 16, 2009)

Latest update: A recount of the election is going to go ahead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8102400.stm


> Iran's Guardian Council says it is ready to hold a recount of disputed votes in Friday's presidential poll.
> 
> Opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has contested President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's re-election, alleging widespread fraud.
> 
> ...



For the last part, I expect that the opposition will contest ALL areas - effectively forcing a total recount.

This will be either an attempt to 'legitimise' Ahmadinejad's win, or a face-saving move to declare Mousavi the new President in light of street protests. I hope it's the latter.

Either way, the best thing is to let Iran for the meantime sort things out themselves, as any outside intervention at this state (especially from the West, and in particular the US) would most likely be counter-productive. After all, it was the CIA-sponsored coup which installed the Shah in 1953 that became a significant factor in the 1979 revolution that got the mullahs where they are now...


----------



## Bambi (Jun 16, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Either way, the best thing is to let Iran for the meantime sort things out themselves, as any outside intervention at this state (especially from the West, and in particular the US) would most likely be counter-productive. After all, it was the CIA-sponsored coup which installed the Shah in 1953 that became a significant factor in the 1979 revolution that got the mullahs where they are now...


 
This exactly.

... which is why it would be good for our administrative body to avoid playing this situation up unnecessarly.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 16, 2009)

Reports coming through that Tehran Uni has been blocked and there is a planned attack on the University tonight. Many students are trying to escape but some can't.

Apparently the protests during the day were mostly peaceful though.


----------



## Sulfide (Jun 16, 2009)

Face it. Everyone in the middle east is Tarded and inbred, power needs to be stripped, and the UK needs to recolonize them again


----------



## FourLetterWord (Jun 16, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Latest update: A recount of the election is going to go ahead.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8102400.stm
> 
> ...



a recount is either gonna be honest and report massive fraud across the whole country, or be a worthless dog and pony show designed to mollify angry masses

considering that the express intent of Supreme Leader's shift in position on this is to restore faith in the election process, and revelation of massive fraud would undermine that faith, it's easy to see which way this will go


----------



## Aden (Jun 16, 2009)

Update.



> *Warning, new twitter feeds are most likely government members trying to spread misinformation, ignore them! Also, there is a handful of good twitter feeds, but please do not publicize their usernames, they are in enough danger as it is and they don't need more publiclity. Major timeline overhaul, including what has unfolded in the last few hours.*
> 
> 
> *Timeline (updated and revamped!)*
> ...


----------



## ToeClaws (Jun 16, 2009)

You know... it just goes to show that the people rigging votes aren't very bright.  Had they made it something of a more narrow victory, they probably wouldn't have had the fuss.  Fortunately, like most bumbling power-grabbers, they did a bad job of it, and now they have some very unhappy people on their hands.  I hope it turns into a new revolution that reforms them with a more normal government and creditable structure.

Secondly... I also hope this doesn't screw up their export of dates - I would miss my date squares. :/


----------



## Mayfurr (Jun 16, 2009)

FourLetterWord said:


> considering that the express intent of Supreme Leader's shift in position on this is to restore faith in the election process, and revelation of massive fraud would undermine that faith, it's easy to see which way this will go



Not necessarily. Revelation of massive fraud, followed by a rerun of the election, might actually help _restore_ public faith in the process and save face all around - especially if the Powers-That-Be can find a convenient scalp to hang the blame on. Denying that fraud took place could potentially be as counter-productive as admitting it - but mullahs don't like political instability any more than anyone else.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 16, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> *National Treasure 3:*
> _The Hunt For Hillary's Gold_


Starring Martha Stewart as Hillary Clinton, and Steve Carell as Vince Foster.



JuggaloTheRolla said:


> Face it. Everyone in the middle east is Tarded and inbred


You must be thinking of the southwestern US.


----------



## Aden (Jun 16, 2009)

Grand Ayatullah Husayn (Hossein) 'Ali Montazeri has issued a statement supporting peaceful protests to "claim rights", condemned the violence, and called the Iranian presidential election results into question.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 16, 2009)

Aden said:


> Grand Ayatullah Husayn (Hossein) 'Ali Montazeri has issued a statement supporting peaceful protests to "claim rights", condemned the violence, and called the Iranian presidential election results into question.



Interesting! So Ahmedinejad's even going against the Ayatollahs?

I take back what I said earlier. This is getting good.

Making popcorn, brb.


----------



## Aden (Jun 16, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> Making popcorn, brb.



Some Basij compound shooting footage to go with your popcorn?

Footage of a police shooting as well

Get 'em while they're still up.

Edit: Photos of protests from #IranElection (Warning, some graphic)

Also looks like Twitter is stalling the scheduled maintenence on #IranElection, which is good.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 16, 2009)

Aden said:


> Some Basij compound shooting footage to go with your popcorn?


In retrospect, that joke was in incredibly poor taste, even by Internet standards. My apologies.


----------



## Aden (Jun 16, 2009)

Satan Q. Jones said:


> In retrospect, that joke was in incredibly poor taste, even by Internet standards. My apologies.



What, you think I care about poor taste? lol


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok, the Iranian guys who are risking their lives on Twitter say it would really help them out if everyone changed their location to Iran and timezone to +3.30hrs Tehran. It would mean the govt people couldn't find them so easily.


----------



## Aden (Jun 16, 2009)

> *As of 18PM on the East Coast, all twitter posts about the army being involved are false.*



Timeline update:



> early 16th of June - The *fourth wave* of violence has started, and was expected to flare up very soon. It surprisingly was quite mild. Pro-Moussavi supporters said that there were even more people today protesting against the regime, though raw numbers are hard to get. If this is true, it means there are more than 2M protesters in the street right now. They are dressed in black and protesting silently and without violence so far. Other reports that only 250,000 were in the street, possibly scared by the Basij and propaganda.
> 
> - The Basij, surprisingly, did not attacking the march itself but rather assaulted dorms again. It looks like they are using the march as a diversion. In Tehran proper, 2000 Basij are waiting to storm the male dorm, and they are backed by IRG helicopters, which seems to send the message that the IRG has broken from their undeclared neutrality toward tacitely supporting the Regime.
> 
> ...


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 16, 2009)

One last post before I go offline:

Apparently the militia have refused to shoot protesters, the violence is only being carried out by Basij and other such groups. Several generals have been arrested.


----------



## Aden (Jun 16, 2009)

Some more interesting reads about the election by the CSM and being on the ground.


----------



## Aden (Jun 17, 2009)

Apparently nobody cares about Iran on here. :T

Anyway, some more backstory to this:



> *Other Players*
> 
> Decided to create this section in order to give a wider range of explanations for people who might not be too familiar with Iran's internal politics and structure.
> 
> ...


----------



## Thatch (Jun 17, 2009)

Aden said:


> Apparently nobody cares about Iran on here. :T



Pretty much.


----------



## Aden (Jun 17, 2009)

> Very worrying report: Supreme Leader Khameini has called for Friday Prayers where he will be present. There are fears that the IRG is going to have a massive presence and that this might be a trap, but on the other hand not attending makes the reformists enemies of Islam and worthy of the death penalty. There are also reports that other Reformist candidate Karoubi and his entire party leadership were arrested.
> 
> Nothing much has happened in the last hours aside of that. There are reports of clerics and ayatollahs meeting in the holy Shiite city of Qom in order to plan to overthrow Khameini as supreme leader, as well as a more and more pro-dissenters stance from the army, but we have nothing substantiated so far.



Looks like we have a long way down to go before things start looking up.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Jun 17, 2009)

Aden said:


> Apparently nobody cares about Iran on here. :T



Durka durka, Mohammad jihad?

Srsly, things are messed up over there, great drama, and hopefully in the end this all gives Iranians more rights.  Even if the powers-that-be in Iran finally fixed it so that no one could upload videos or pics of what's going on over there, the damage has been done.  The international community has already seen what's going on over there and should be supporting the protesters who simply wanted a recount.


----------



## Vintage (Jun 17, 2009)

the way it was explained to me is that the protests are against the political structure and they haven't moved quite to protesting the islamic theocracy yet, but that it's uncharted territory if it does, and could signal the major shift that a lot of people are looking for in islam if they decide to overthrow the ayatollahs (basically the equivalent of the reformation)

also i don't know if it was said but somehow moussavi lost his hometown and his ethnic group.  also, everyone but nejad quit after the first round.



JuggaloTheRolla said:


> Face it. Everyone in the middle east is Tarded and inbred, power needs to be stripped, and the UK needs to recolonize them again



go breathe some hot soup you fucking tapeworm


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 17, 2009)

JuggaloTheRolla said:


> Face it. Everyone in the middle east is Tarded and inbred, power needs to be stripped, and the UK needs to recolonize them again



Actually, the young people of Iran are highly educated and tech savvy :V

Also, Aden, I agree, there is a very long way to go before things will be looking up. I sincerely hope the protesters get what they want, I admire them for standing up for what they believe. It's restored some of my faith in society because one of the things that scares me the most is that is the government became more controlling here people wouldn't stand up for their rights and what they believe in.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Jun 17, 2009)

Here's an interesting development: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

When in doubt, and in an Islamic country, blame America.


----------



## Vintage (Jun 17, 2009)

it's pretty obvious the iranian political establishment is running out of options, so their response is to pull out the old political football and kick it around a few times.  i doubt anyone in iran believes them anymore; they have absolutely no argument.  the US response to this conflict has been remarkably restrained and i applaud the president (flame on) for toeing a very thin line in regard to this situation and keeping his senior staff on message.  he recognizes that this is an internal conflict, and that only iranians can solve it.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 17, 2009)

Term_the_Schmuck said:


> Here's an interesting development: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election
> 
> When in doubt, and in an Islamic country, blame America.


That's a more reasonable maxim in Iran than you realize. Google "Operation Ajax" once.

I'm not saying it's right in this case, but it has been known to happen.


----------



## FourLetterWord (Jun 18, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> Not necessarily. Revelation of massive fraud, followed by a rerun of the election, might actually help _restore_ public faith in the process and save face all around - especially if the Powers-That-Be can find a convenient scalp to hang the blame on. Denying that fraud took place could potentially be as counter-productive as admitting it - but mullahs don't like political instability any more than anyone else.



well sure, in an ideal world where Khameni were a forward-sighted individual with an eye for tolerance and due process, but that dont really strike me as his bag :/


----------



## Mayfurr (Jun 18, 2009)

Vintage said:


> the US response to this conflict has been remarkably restrained and i applaud the president (flame on) for toeing a very thin line in regard to this situation and keeping his senior staff on message.  he recognizes that this is an internal conflict, and that only iranians can solve it.



I agree completely - so far Obama's effectively defused and defanged the "interfering Great Satan" line from the mullahs, and the longer he holds off the less that line's going to work.

It's interesting that eight years of Bush pushing the "Axis of Evil" line with Iran never provoked the current situation which has come to pass under Obama's "offer you a hand if you unclench your fist" policy... it seems that sometimes the best approach IS to sit back and wait!


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 18, 2009)

Mayfurr said:


> I agree completely - so far Obama's effectively defused and defanged the "interfering Great Satan" line from the mullahs, and the longer he holds off the less that line's going to work.
> 
> It's interesting that eight years of Bush pushing the "Axis of Evil" line with Iran never provoked the current situation which has come to pass under Obama's "offer you a hand if you unclench your fist" policy... it seems that sometimes the best approach IS to sit back and wait!



God I hope his administration keeps their mouth shut until the proper window presents itself.


----------



## Term_the_Schmuck (Jun 18, 2009)

They're a little too busy contemplating the rights of flies right now to worry about Iran.


----------



## Aden (Jun 18, 2009)

*Attention to anyone who torrents regularly*:

Here are 21 torrents that the Iranian gov't is trying to suppress. Do your part and seed these guys.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Jun 18, 2009)

Aden said:


> *Attention to anyone who torrents regularly*:
> 
> Here are 21 torrents that the Iranian gov't is trying to suppress. Do your part and seed these guys.


Seeding now.

EDIT: The last five on that list don't work; they aren't even on TPB anymore.


----------



## ~secret~ (Jun 18, 2009)

HELP SAVE IRAN FROM EVIL STORMTROOPER PRESIDENT BARRY METHUSELAH

Do your part to bring that bastard down. *seeding*


----------



## Tryp (Jun 18, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> And that might be exactly what they want. This could be the start of a purge, one that will make the cultural revolution look like a walk in the park. With the intelligentsia and the rising middle class gone or scared to ground, they can solidify their power base over the great unwashed and whip up support for another war with Iraq or Israel or.......


Actually, Iraq started the Iran/Iraq War.


I'm glad the Council has allowed for a recount.  Going into the election, both candiates were neck-in-neck in the polls, and suddenly Ahmadinejad had over 60% of the vote.  The crackdown on telecommunication might be to limit the spread of the recount results, and to cover up any more violence against protesters.  

I do hope Moussavi wins.  Although most people claim there won't be much of a difference, as the Ayatollah is still Supreme Leader, but anything is a breath of fresh air after Ahmadinejad.  Despite the bad rap, Iranians are some of the most hospitable people in the world.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 18, 2009)

Tryp said:


> I'm glad the Council has allowed for a recount.  Going into the election, both candiates were neck-in-neck in the polls, and suddenly Ahmadinejad had over 60% of the vote.  The crackdown on telecommunication might be to limit the spread of the recount results, and to cover up any more violence against protesters.
> 
> I do hope Moussavi wins.  Although most people claim there won't be much of a difference, as the Ayatollah is still Supreme Leader, but anything is a breath of fresh air after Ahmadinejad.  Despite the bad rap, Iranians are some of the most hospitable people in the world.



It's only partial recounts, and I fear that corruption may even filter in again... I do hope Moussavi comes to power though.

Also, people on Twitter are changing their icons to be green tinted in support of the protesters, anyone on there may want to join in with that.


----------



## Tycho (Jun 18, 2009)

Tryp said:


> Despite the bad rap, Iranians are some of the most hospitable people in the world.



Yes, that hostage situation in Tehran back in Carter's presidency was a tea party, I'm sure.


----------



## CAThulu (Jun 18, 2009)

ramsay_baggins said:


> It's only partial recounts, and I fear that corruption may even filter in again... I do hope Moussavi comes to power though.
> 
> Also, people on Twitter are changing their icons to be green tinted in support of the protesters, anyone on there may want to join in with that.



I read in the paper this morning that Ahmadinejad is whining to the Swedish foreign ambassador that the US is interfering and saying their the cause for people wanting a recount.  I hope no one listens.  Mayfurr made a good observation here:



> I agree completely - so far Obama's effectively defused and defanged the "interfering Great Satan" line from the mullahs, and the longer he holds off the less that line's going to work.
> 
> It's interesting that eight years of Bush pushing the "Axis of Evil" line with Iran never provoked the current situation which has come to pass under Obama's "offer you a hand if you unclench your fist" policy... it seems that sometimes the best approach IS to sit back and wait!



It's my hope that America doesn't rise to the bait and let the country resolve this issue themselves...and that at the end of this madness the votes will show that Moussavi is indeed the winner of this election.  The people of Iran and the international community have had enough.  The bravery of the protestors have my prayers and my awe for going out into the streets even though they know there's a chance of imprisionment or being shot for their stance.


----------



## CAThulu (Jun 18, 2009)

I just found this through http://thepiratebay.org/ which is supporting the Iranian conflict by pointing the way to a blog called Anonymous Iran http://iran.whyweprotest.net/index.php

From the blog: 


> *How-to surf securely and avoid censorship: http://torir.org*
> This forum aims to be a secure and reliable way of communication for Iranians and friends.Use it to discuss what is happening in Iran. Post in the forum either anonymously as a guest, as a *registered* user, or login with your facebook-account. We are not a government agency, nor are we Iranian. We are simply the internet and we believe in free speech. Read here for more: http://iran.whyweprotest.net/showthread.php?t=29
> This forum is backed by thepiratebay.org, Anonymous, and numerous other internet-friendly forces.


----------



## whoadamn (Jun 18, 2009)

What I don't understand is why there's no longer mention of the situation in Afghanistan. There's a person alongside a group suspected to be responsible for that incredible tragedy, yet all reports of progress on tracking them down seem to have vanished entirely from mention via the media.

It's sickening to watch recaps of the incident, yet it's as though the time elapsed since its occurence has managed to reduce its weight among us. It seems like this duration has proved to be a form of appeal to those accountable, something unheard of among anyone who's caused such a sheer loss of life.

I'd say, if this truely was product of an outraged group of terrorists, then they'd already be dead or in confinement.

Nearly every other conflict since have been based on either suspicion or anticipation of the mere possibility of an attack, yet the only true event that has taken effect within America's borders has been given up on?


----------



## CAThulu (Jun 18, 2009)

The media for some reason cannot seem to focus on more then one story at the same time.  It's like it has ADD.


----------



## Tryp (Jun 18, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Yes, that hostage situation in Tehran back in Carter's presidency was a tea party, I'm sure.


I don't recall the entire country taking them hostage.  That was a small group of students who were fanatically loyal to the Ayatollah.  And at least they didn't kill any hostages.


----------



## Tycho (Jun 18, 2009)

Tryp said:


> I don't recall the entire country taking them hostage.  That was a small group of students who were fanatically loyal to the Ayatollah.  And at least they didn't kill any hostages.



I don't think you'd get a friendly "Howdy, pardner" from anyone in Iran as an American.


----------



## Tryp (Jun 18, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I don't think you'd get a friendly "Howdy, pardner" from anyone in Iran as an American.


http://www.iranian.com/Travelers/2004/January/Hospitality/index.html

Granted, those two are British and Kiwi, but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at them.  The Iranian government isn't very welcoming, but ordinary Iranians are.  You can't judge a nation by its ruling government, Americans are well aware of that after George W. and friends gained America international notoriety.


----------



## ramsay_baggins (Jun 19, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I don't think you'd get a friendly "Howdy, pardner" from anyone in Iran as an American.



Apparently the British are now their most evil enemies though according to their religious leader.


Also, every single day there are queues of young Iranians outside the American Embassy hoping to move to America, the youth seem to idolise America.


----------



## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 19, 2009)

Khameini laid down an ultimatum today, we will know where the movement goes tomorrow. Should Mousavi and reformists show up to protest tomorrow, we could see a very strong increase in violence. I'm not sure if anything will happen though, Khameini is a very intimidating individual and it's a civilian population against the Iranian volunteers and military along with an older, hardened generation.


----------



## Aden (Jun 19, 2009)

Big update, some dealing with what *Bowtoid_Obelisk* is talking about.



> It has been confirmed: *Reformists leaders are calling on their protesters to boycott tomorrow's prayer session led by Khameini. This is an extremely bold move.*
> 
> Things are not rosy for the Basij and there are increasing signs that they are starting not only to lose ground, but to fear for their safety. There are many reports that most Basij forces are now hiding their identities with masks for fear of reprisal. There are websites being created featuring images and often identities of Basij who have been violently repressing students, calling for action to be taken against those men.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zrcalo (Jun 19, 2009)

Nuke the bloody Sandniggers.

*inserts freedom of speech right*


----------



## Russ (Jun 19, 2009)

Zrcalo said:


> Nuke the bloody Sandniggers.
> 
> *inserts freedom of speech right*


 
They aren't Arabs you know


----------



## Tycho (Jun 19, 2009)

Russ said:


> They aren't Arabs you know



Persians =/= Arabs.

IIRC most Iranians speak Farsi, not Arabic.


----------



## Russ (Jun 19, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Persians =/= Arabs.
> 
> IIRC most Iranians speak Farsi, not Arabic.


 
Yea. They are considered a separate ethnicity than Arabs.


----------



## Jashwa (Jun 19, 2009)

Shit.  I don't think those people are going to give in to teh government any time soon.  More power to them, although I hope not too many civillians lose their lives over this =\


----------



## Russ (Jun 19, 2009)

Considering how hardline the Grand Ayetollah's statement was, the government may increase the pressure before caving in.

However, considering that the members of Basij have begun hiding their identities and the army and police are refusing to get involved, the protesters may be getting their word across.


----------



## Tycho (Jun 19, 2009)

Russ said:


> Considering how hardline the Grand Ayetollah's statement was, the government may increase the pressure before caving in.
> 
> However, considering that the members of Basij have begun hiding their identities and the army and police are refusing to get involved, the protesters may be getting their word across.



Some of the protesters are members of their extended families, no doubt.


----------



## Jashwa (Jun 19, 2009)

Get-dancing said:


> Because it's an insult to the 11,000,000 who died those 11,000,000 horendious deaths which would upset survivours of atrocity or their families and friends.
> 
> Also it prevents learning from the event in order to prevent other genocides like it repeating. Say one day the newly elected president of Iran says "Alright, enough is enough. No beating around the bush, raid all of the middle-eastern region round up those who are homosexual and horde them up into big death camps were they can be murdered industrially." Then hopefully he could be convinced otherwise with comparisons to the holocaust "But Mr Hammed! Did Schindlers List teach you nothing! We can't allow that to happen, it will be the same actrocity all over again!". If he follows these crazy conspiracy theories about the whole thing being a sham then he would not follow through "Nah, lowe! Board them up anyway, afterall the holocaust is just a lie promoted by the jews to win back Israel.".
> 
> ...


 You know what, I never expected this post out of you.  I kind of expected the opposite.  *claps*


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## Mayfurr (Jun 19, 2009)

Regarding Twitter's part in all this, I though this was appropriate...

http://yubanet.com/cartoon/Twitter-and-Iran.php


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 20, 2009)

Twitter and social networking sites have been flooded by the Iranian guard and establishment supporters, protesters and the opposition are in a state of confusion. Strong crackdowns have been going on in the streets of Tehran, so far violent. I think the protesters have probably been effectively repelled for the day. Any real statement by Mousavi has probably been lost in the confusion but he has defiantly not attended a meeting with the Royal Guard to discuss the election results according to state media. Saw some pretty amazing video of people shouting from rooftops through the night and a raid on one of the buildings people by the Basiji on a building where some of the shouting is coming from.

That being said, personally, I still have my doubts as to the longevity of this movement.


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## Tycho (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, shit.

Can't say they didn't try.

Fuck you, Khamenei.


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## Tycho (Jun 20, 2009)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/19/zakaria.iran.elections/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Reading tiem.

shit, doublepost.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 20, 2009)

Tycho said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/19/zakaria.iran.elections/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
> 
> Reading tiem.
> 
> shit, doublepost.



God I love Fareed Zakaria, shame I'm asleep while he's on.

I've found it particularly eerie that Mousavi has been mostly silent during this time. Although unconfirmed, his supposed facebook page notes that he is ready for 'martyrdom' which, if true, means that he too is putting all of his chips on the table.


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## yiffytimesnews (Jun 20, 2009)

I would say this on one side you got the hardliners who doesn't want anything to change period. Then you have roughly half the population of Iran most of whom are under 20, they want change. Hell, the media has been reporting on that for over 3 years now. I don't like to see anyone killed, but sadly given the way of the world these days people are going to die. Sadly all we can do is sit back and watch.


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## Tycho (Jun 20, 2009)

yiffytimesnews said:


> I don't like to see anyone killed, but sadly given the way of the world these days people are going to die. Sadly all we can do is sit back and watch.



Thomas Jefferson once said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants".


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## Aden (Jun 20, 2009)

Summary of new developments:



> *Regarding the rumours of Mousavi's arrest in the Guardian*: Twitter feeds on the ground are denying that this is what happened, while others do in fact say that he was arrested along all of his staff and that their offices were trashed. So far, we don't know for sure one way or another. It could be propaganda to scare the people, or it could be the truth as well.
> 
> A relatively large crowd was present to hear Khameini declared during the prayers, while Reformist leaders called on their supporters to stay home. It was very easy to notice that this crowd was also much older than those we have seen revolting.
> 
> ...





> Today, Mousavi gave an important speech. Here's the video, and translation:
> 
> "_I have come due to concerns of current political and social conditions - to defend the rights of the nation. I have come to improve Iran's International relations. I have come to tell the world and return to Iran our pride, our dignity, our future. I have come to bring to Iran a FUTURE of FREEDOM, of HOPE. I have come to represent the poor the helpless the hungry. I have come to be ACCOUNTABLE to you my people and to this world.
> 
> ...


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## Jashwa (Jun 20, 2009)

And now we cross our fingers and hope to God that the government doesn't have the balls to start massive violent crackdowns.

*crosses*


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## iBolt! (Jun 20, 2009)

Simple solution: Unless it concerns our well-being, stop trying to regulate the world. We can't even take care of ourselves -.-


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## Lobar (Jun 20, 2009)

iBolt! said:


> Simple solution: Unless it concerns our well-being, stop trying to regulate the world. We can't even take care of ourselves -.-



You don't have to be advocating for U.S. intervention (it's probably the worst thing we could actually do right now anyways) for your heart to go out to the protestors today.  HuffPo has been live-blogging what little information is coming out of the country by the protestors themselves, and all of it is very graphic and disturbing, like Basij forces waiting inside hospitals to ambush injured protestors seeking treatment and helicoptors dumping boiling water on large groups of protestors from the sky.  I wish all the protestors good luck.


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## Tycho (Jun 20, 2009)

Lobar said:


> You don't have to be advocating for U.S. intervention (it's probably the worst thing we could actually do right now anyways) for your heart to go out to the protestors today.  HuffPo has been live-blogging what little information is coming out of the country by the protestors themselves, and all of it is very graphic and disturbing, like Basij forces waiting inside hospitals to ambush injured protestors seeking treatment and helicoptors dumping boiling water on large groups of protestors from the sky.  I wish all the protestors good luck.



I wish luck was all they needed.

In any event, the venomous beast that is theocracy has suffered a wound which will not heal.  Theocracy's days are numbered, and this tragic and magnificent demonstration of the power of human will is a bright flash of hope for the cause of humanity itself, I think.


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## Aden (Jun 21, 2009)

A disturbing video showing a young woman purportedly shot in the streets of Tehran is becoming a rallying symbol for opponents of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. (link to video in question inside article)


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## Get-dancing (Jun 21, 2009)

iBolt! said:


> Simple solution: Unless it concerns our well-being, stop trying to regulate the world. We can't even take care of ourselves -.-



If Americans thought that they needed to bury their heads in the sand to corrupt mass-murderers overseas to worry about their own ecenomic issues, then half of us would be speaking german. It's selfish just to let tyrants like Iran reign on, it's also a crime if you see a crime and to do nothing about it, like say someone being mugged and you don't phone the cops or try to help scare off the mugger. With great power comes great responcibility.


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## Rostam The Grey (Jun 21, 2009)

We should stay out of it unless the government starts using things like biological weapons and missles to kill the masses. But even then we should work with other countries in this case.


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## Tycho (Jun 21, 2009)

Rostam The Grey said:


> We should stay out of it unless the government starts using things like biological weapons and missles to kill the masses. But even then we should work with other countries in this case.



The moment we openly throw our hat into the ring and actively pursue any attempt at "stabilizing" Iran, the whole opposition movement is poisoned and Mousavi is perceived as a US pawn, and therefore illegitimate as a candidate.  If we touch this situation we will INSTANTLY give Khamenei the ammo he needs.  They won't use bioweapons - that would be rather messy, and there's no guarantee they wouldn't fall prey to their own weaponry.  It'll be a simple straight-up leadchucking spree.


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## Lobar (Jun 21, 2009)

Tycho said:


> The moment we openly throw our hat into the ring and actively pursue any attempt at "stabilizing" Iran, the whole opposition movement is poisoned and Mousavi is perceived as a US pawn, and therefore illegitimate as a candidate.  If we touch this situation we will INSTANTLY give Khamenei the ammo he needs.  They won't use bioweapons - that would be rather messy, and there's no guarantee they wouldn't fall prey to their own weaponry.  It'll be a simple straight-up leadchucking spree.



QFT.  1979 is ancient history to a lot of the students and youth in Iran today, but if we actually intervene in any way, they're going to remember pretty fucking quick and the whole movement will be poisoned.


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## Aden (Jun 21, 2009)

Tycho said:


> The moment we openly throw our hat into the ring and actively pursue any attempt at "stabilizing" Iran, the whole opposition movement is poisoned and Mousavi is perceived as a US pawn, and therefore illegitimate as a candidate.  If we touch this situation we will INSTANTLY give Khamenei the ammo he needs.



Tell that to the goddamn House, who voted almost unanimously (1 "no" vote by Ron Paul, 2 "present", 25 absent, if I recall correctly) to "condemn the Iranian government for their recent actions".

Great job, asswipes. Now get back to work.


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## Tycho (Jun 21, 2009)

Aden said:


> Tell that to the goddamn House, who voted almost unanimously (1 "no" vote by Ron Paul, 2 "present", 25 absent, if I recall correctly) to "condemn the Iranian government for their recent actions".
> 
> Great job, asswipes. Now get back to work.



Hopefully no major damage was done... hell, the Iranian government is going to have the rest of the world condemning them too.

I'm guessing this condemnation was a bone being tossed to the protesters all over the States.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Jun 21, 2009)

Tycho said:


> Hopefully no major damage was done... hell, the Iranian government is going to have the rest of the world condemning them too.
> 
> I'm guessing this condemnation was a bone being tossed to the protesters all over the States.



And of course Senator John the Hot Headed Maverick McCain coming to the rescue. Thank god we dodged that presidential bullet.


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