# Racism still alive in many areas



## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

It always makes me sad to read stuff like this, where people are instantly jumping to conclusions about people based on skin color.

www.nytimes.com: A Black Teenager Asked for Directions. A Man Responded With Gunfire.



> Brennan Walker, 14, of Rochester Hills, Mich., woke up around 7:30 a.m. on Thursday — too late. He had slept through his alarm and was going to miss the school bus.
> 
> So he decided to walk to Rochester High School, where he is a freshman. That takes about an hour and a half, but he thought he would at least make it in time for his third-period class in world studies, his favorite subject.
> 
> ...


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

Racism always exists. It just feels more prevalent in the US because of the size of their media and the multiculturalism


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## Deleted member 82554 (Apr 15, 2018)

So, how far away are we from colonizing Mars again?


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## MsRavage (Apr 15, 2018)

its pretty bad...i've personally had someone call me a stupid mexican, where they proceeded to tell me to go back to mexico. but...there are others who get it much worse. If i ever see it in person you better believe i will show them just how crazy i can get...people like that are ridiculous


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## Pipistrele (Apr 15, 2018)

Welp, it indeed is.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Apr 15, 2018)

MsRavage said:


> If i ever see it in person you better believe i will show them just how crazy i can get...people like that are ridiculous


Elaborate?


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## MsRavage (Apr 15, 2018)

Mr. Fox said:


> Elaborate?


If i ever saw someone being bullied by racists i'll take action. I always see videos of situations where others are attacked for stupid reasons like being gay or black...if i was in the presence of something like that i'd definitely not just sit idle...i would do something to stop it


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

racism comes from somewhere though in my personal experience in my own country racism has never come from "my race is superior" its come from a frustration that the government focuses more on immigrants than actual Australian people 

immigrants have
welfare priority
social housing priority
job priority
healthcare priority
schooling priority

list goes on the government dramatically apologised for this last year and have tried to make amends by getting rid of certain working visas but the damage is already done i know around Melbourne entry level jobs are given to working tourists rather than locals as its cheaper to have a six to twelve month cycle of hiring and firing than keeping people on long term and giving them raises certain perks award wages etc etc


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## MsRavage (Apr 15, 2018)

im not familiar with australia....but in america i see the argument for illegal immigrants sucking resources dry all the time....for us the issue goes so far down the rabbit hole....the realization is that the government spends way more money on crap/selfish things for themselves and seems to push the blame towards illegal immigrants....that they're a scapegoat or something. Me personally, i'd rather my taxes go to help those less off then myself than it going to politicians to spend their vacation in vegas.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

MsRavage said:


> im not familiar with australia....but in america i see the argument for illegal immigrants sucking resources dry all the time....for us the issue goes so far down the rabbit hole....the realization is that the government spends way more money on crap/selfish things for themselves and seems to push the blame towards illegal immigrants....that they're a scapegoat or something. Me personally, i'd rather my taxes go to help those less off then myself than it going to politicians to spend their vacation in vegas.





 
Welfare eats a good chunk of the US budget each year 1.03 trillion


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

MsRavage said:


> im not familiar with australia....but in america i see the argument for illegal immigrants sucking resources dry all the time....for us the issue goes so far down the rabbit hole....the realization is that the government spends way more money on crap/selfish things for themselves and seems to push the blame towards illegal immigrants....that they're a scapegoat or something. Me personally, i'd rather my taxes go to help those less off then myself than it going to politicians to spend their vacation in vegas.


Like almost every issue, people are pissed off at the right thing for the wrong reasons.  In this situation, the thing is “there’s a lack of employment that’s capable of feeding my family”
And they’re directing it towards the totally wrong place
Should be most of it @ that fuckface Matt Bevin and that other fuckface Mitch McConnell and the rest among the other politicians that don’t hold their peers responsible


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

MsRavage said:


> im not familiar with australia....but in america i see the argument for illegal immigrants sucking resources dry all the time....for us the issue goes so far down the rabbit hole....the realization is that the government spends way more money on crap/selfish things for themselves and seems to push the blame towards illegal immigrants....that they're a scapegoat or something. Me personally, i'd rather my taxes go to help those less off then myself than it going to politicians to spend their vacation in vegas.



Australia is a different story to America different culture different history etc etc Australia was becoming more and more important but we didn't have the population to do what the government wanted to achieve so they opened the flood gates to immigration and it all got out of hand currently there's more people living here that were not born here than there are born and raised Australians we really do have a problem with just letting everyone in and they're only now trying to stop it there's been suicides because millennial's just cannot find jobs and one of the major fuck ups that happened as that we're going though a job crisis at the moment so its hard for anyone to get a job then suddenly the government started pushing diversity and made gender and race quotas and then suddenly the unemployment of youth fucking skyrocketed and they realised it was a mistake

another thing that frustrates us is we're not stupid we know what's going on but the government says nothings wrong and that everyone is fine they also have unreasonable expectations of people who can't find work like moving 100s of kilometres to to where there are jobs... like they're asking people who are borderline homeless to do that...

also Australians need to work for welfare they need to do up to 50 hours per week of unpaid work for their welfare immigrants don't


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## Scales42 (Apr 15, 2018)

Well racism will be around as long as humans are around. No way of changing that.


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## Sealab (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> View attachment 30471
> Welfare eats a good chunk of the US budget each year 1.03 trillion


Crazy thing is literally every race of people are on welfare in this country. I know many poor whites on government assistance programs that complain about it. I'm like, "The hell man, you're on it too." But they usually mean the OTHER people are the ones bringing us down. The real thing we need in this country is financial stability. Housing costs are too high, wage increases have stagnated or fallen, and every politician focuses on "jobs" and not "careers". We can't be proud of high employment if it's just a ton of people working at Wal-mart and McDonald's.


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## Sealab (Apr 15, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> also Australians need to work for welfare they need to do up to 50 hours per week of unpaid work for their welfare immigrants don't



5o hours of unpaid labor for welfare? That's fucking criminal.


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

Sealab said:


> 5o hours of unpaid labor for welfare? That's fucking criminal.



its almost universally hated as its technically slave labour but there's a technicality that lets them get away with it stating that if you're doing something for government with a not for profit organisation they can pay what they want because on paper you're listed as a"volunteer" but the reality is people are working for about 6c an hour


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

its ok though the government heard the outcry and decided to add an extra 1c to that so now its 7c an hour 

to put that into context my job isn't considered high paying and i get about $37 an hour


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

Sealab said:


> Crazy thing is literally every race of people are on welfare in this country


Yes but the eligibility of recieving said welfare is easier in the US than anywhere else in the world. Australia's 50 hour unpaid requirement, which in my opinion is pretty reasonable


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Yes but the eligibility of recieving said welfare is easier in the US than anywhere else in the world. Australia's 50 hour unpaid requirement, which in my opinion is pretty reasonable



its not but for 50 hours a week people are making about $180 a week that is well bellow what is considered poverty standard the average wage in my city alone is $1200 

all parties except for the one in place now have said they will get rid of it, its also been proven to have no effect in getting these people jobs in some cases making it worse and its costing the tax payers more money than what is being put back in not to mention there's been 2-3 deaths and several business have gone bankrupt from it


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

Be that as it may but the case of point is that there should welfare must be controlled to the point where it is given to those who utilizes them properly.
I'll never get welfare, I rather die


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Be that as it may but the case of point is that there should welfare must be controlled to the point where it is given to those who utilizes them properly.
> I'll never get welfare, I rather die



that's your culture though its all about giving to society not taking west is different they view social security as an investment you're paying into it via taxes in case you someday need it yourself


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

Even social security is getting shitty


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

i believe in America social security is much higher than it is in Australia but you shouldn't rely solely on welfare in your retirement any way there was an assessment done not too long ago they said the minimum amount of money you need to retire (at age 60) without any kind of social security is $2,000,000.... most people just would not be able to save that much over their life time i know people who are almost thirty now who have only ever had less than $10,000 in their account


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

Mr. Fox said:


> So, how far away are we from colonizing Mars again?


Not too far. We've developed a leaf that still works while being sturdy


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## Izzy4895 (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> View attachment 30471
> Welfare eats a good chunk of the US budget each year 1.03 trillion



Most welfare receipents in the United States happen to be white.



WithMyBearHands said:


> Yeah man people are fucked up.  They’ve been coming out of the woodwork lately.  More people need to stop being afraid to call racists out on their racist bullshit.  Put your foot down at the holiday dinner table.  Punch a Nazi.  Go wild.
> 
> I couldn’t be more serious btw, part of me honestly thinks that the only thing those degenerates understand is violence.  If it’s hatred they want, it’s hatred they’ll get.  Give ‘em hell, kids.



While these filth are nowhere near as strong as they were in Germany in the 1930’s, they are still dangerous on an individual level. People targeted by racists, as well as their anti-racist allies, should embrace various *self-defense* measures, e.g. concealed carry, strength training, mace/pepper spray, etc. Most of these racists are miserable poltroons projecting the hatred they have for themselves onto non-whites; they will not dare to stand up to people who can fight back.



MsRavage said:


> im not familiar with australia....but in america i see the argument for illegal immigrants sucking resources dry all the time....for us the issue goes so far down the rabbit hole....the realization is that the government spends way more money on crap/selfish things for themselves and seems to push the blame towards illegal immigrants....that they're a scapegoat or something. Me personally, i'd rather my taxes go to help those less off then myself than it going to politicians to spend their vacation in vegas.



Racism and xenophobia drive down wages and benefits across the board, as such things do wonders to pit workers against each other instead of uniting and organizing them to collectively fight for better wages and benefits. The corrupt oligarchs you have described have a vested interest in fomenting racist garbage, as their power, wealth, and privilege would cone to an abrupt halt if workers united across racial and ethnic lines to fight back against them.


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> Racism and xenophobia drive down wages and benefits across the board, as such things do wonders to pit workers against each other instead of uniting and organizing them to collectively fight for better wages and benefits. The corrupt oligarchs you have described have a vested interest in fomenting racist garbage, as their power, wealth, and privilege would cone to an abrupt halt if workers united across racial and ethnic lines to fight back against them.




you really can't compare US and AUS like that America is like a democratic Plutocracy the Australian Westminster system is very close to a pure democracy and besides that our minimum wages are about 3x-4x what the US is we're paid a lot more than they are 

i know my job when compared to a US Marine is something like 8x the amount


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## Ginza (Apr 15, 2018)

Aside from this being pretty obvious bait, and bound to end in a shitshow...

Yes, racism still does exist. There are plenty of fucked up, backwards people in this world. However, I don’t think racist *actions *exist very frequently on a day to day basis frankly.

Racism is natural. Most humans are in fact, naturally racist. You’d be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t hold _some _form of bias against a racial group for one reason or another 

www.psychologytoday.com: We’re All a Bit Racist

While this article wasn’t necessarily my favorite, it does note that we do in fact, have natural bias. It’s just how we’re born. Humans are “herd animals”, and it’s in our nature to choose those who look like us, and act like us. We look to exclude those who are different, as we perceive it as weakness, and attempt to keep ourselves safe. Is this reasonable in today’s society? No. However, it’s simply the way our brains work, and there’s not much we can do about that.

While racism is somewhat natural, it’s not an excuse to be an asshole. I personally feel it’s totally okay to hold some personal bias, as long as you can maintain perspective, and not let it get in the way of hiring, interacting, teaching, etc. Does everyone do that? Absolutely not, and it’s wrong, and horrible really. However, despite what accusations people like to fling, the US justice system _does _do a fairly good job when it comes to racism of this sort. With the Declaration of Independence- all men are created equal. While this originally meant, all property-owning, white men, its meaning has since been amended. 

There’s also the 14th amendment to keep in mind:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

In essence, it states that everyone is equal, and that you are not permitted to be unjust to anyone solely based on who they are. Originally, it’s purpose was to make slavery illegal, but the principle is still relevant, even today.

Then you also have the “Civil Rights Act Of 1964” which forbids discrimination based on sex, race, religion, color, or national origin.
www.eeoc.gov: Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

vvv here’s a brief outline of laws regarding gender, pay gaps, etc if you feel so inclined as to read through. 
Laws Enforced by EEOC

So to summarize, yes racism does exist. I personally believe that as long as humans live, there will be racism and bias. However, every race is protected under the law. Thus, racism cannot legally occur. This obviously will not stop it, but it at least gives individuals who have been wronged in some way, protection.

I think we could all benefit from learning to be a bit kinder, and tolerant. The left needs to stop screaming buzzwords like “Nazi” and “white supremacist” at everyone who disagrees. The right needs to stop being so set in their traditional ways that they never evolve with the times, and hold bigoted and backwards views. If we genuinely accepted responsibility for our actions and bias, I truly think we would improve as a society. Will we? I’m unsure. Being the pessimist I am, I do not believe we will. After all, it is human nature to discriminate and be selfish. However, I try to encourage effort, and kindness wherever I can. We can all make change by doing the same.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> View attachment 30471
> Welfare eats a good chunk of the US budget each year 1.03 trillion


Where you getting those numbers mane, our defense budget is like 54% of our total expenses lol.  And that’s gone up recently.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Where you getting those numbers mane, our defense budget is like 54% of our total expenses lol.  And that’s gone up recently.


federalsafetynet.com: Welfare Budget


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

MsRavage said:


> its pretty bad...i've personally had someone call me a stupid mexican, where they proceeded to tell me to go back to mexico. but...there are others who get it much worse. If i ever see it in person you better believe i will show them just how crazy i can get...people like that are ridiculous



Sorry you've had that happen to you, that sucks. 



MsRavage said:


> im not familiar with australia....but in america i see the argument for illegal immigrants sucking resources dry all the time....for us the issue goes so far down the rabbit hole....the realization is that the government spends way more money on crap/selfish things for themselves and seems to push the blame towards illegal immigrants....that they're a scapegoat or something. Me personally, i'd rather my taxes go to help those less off then myself than it going to politicians to spend their vacation in vegas.



Yeah. Immigrants actually usually drive the economy, not slow and dismantle it.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Yeah. Immigrants actually usually drive the economy, not slow and dismantle it.


Immigrants with families still outside the US recieves remittance. Money going outside the country hurts the economy


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Immigrants with families still outside the US recieves remittance. Money going outside the country hurts the economy



correct i believe my country made that illegal a few years back actually however they will find ways they're also not supposed to hire people from their own family/communities or speak another language during job interviews or post help wanted signs in other languages but they do any way


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Welfare spending DEFINITELY does not put that kind of dent in our budget lol.  Compare $200 in SNAP benefits to the billions spent on corporate bailouts.  I’d rather make sure a family can eat for the month than help some stuffed shirt buy his sixth vacation home.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

And undocumented immigrants can’t receive benefits anyway.  I tried to apply for food stamps some time ago and saw how much paperwork they require.  It’s impossible.  So i really don’t see why the powers that be are making a big fuss over it


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Welfare spending DEFINITELY does not put that kind of dent in our budget lol.  Compare $200 in SNAP benefits to the billions spent on corporate bailouts.  I’d rather make sure a family can eat for the month than help some stuffed shirt buy his sixth vacation home.



the defence budget in America is very... complicated... since WW2 and lend lease America needs war to survive it was a temporary measure to get out of the great depression but its a crutch they have never really been able get off of the defence budget is so high because armament companies are basically paying for it themselves because in tern they will get money back plus some through continued conflict


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> undocumented immigrants can’t receive benefits anyway.


Dreamers can
www.google.co.jp: FACT CHECK: Are DACA Recipients Eligible For Federal Benefits?


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Dreamers can
> www.google.co.jp: FACT CHECK: Are DACA Recipients Eligible For Federal Benefits?


The process takes years to even be documented.  And the whole time they’re paying more in taxes than any of us.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> The process takes years to even be documented.  And the whole time they’re paying more in taxes than any of us.


Then the subject veers whether there is enough job for everyone to have.

With less jobs to give actual american citizens more americans rely on welfare.
It doesn't help that businesses have the tendency to hire immigrants due to cheap labor.

This may be the reason why as @Izzy4895 stated:


Izzy4895 said:


> Most welfare receipents in the United States happen to be white.


is happening

Also I don't trust Newsweek. Liberal news source


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> The process takes years to even be documented.  And the whole time they’re paying more in taxes than any of us.


It's a good thing to make documentation and citizenship take years. If they're paying out the ass while only being eligible for a small bit of benefits then that's really their own problem as if I'm understanding it correctly, they're illegally in the country. They need to go so they can get into the country _legally _like everyone else.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> It's a good thing to make documentation and citizenship take years. If they're paying out the ass while only being eligible for a small bit of benefits then that's really their own problem as if I'm understanding it correctly, they're illegally in the country. They need to go so they can get into the country _legally _like everyone else.


Mang I hope your avi is some nasty satire lol


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Mang I hope your avi is some nasty satire lol


Depends on what you consider _satire_


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

we Didn’t go through the proper process to have so many people in the Middle East.  By that logic we’re there illegally and we need to leave


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> Depends on what you consider _satire_


Well you can’t blame me for not trusting someone whose OC is dressed as a fucking SS Officer lol


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> we Didn’t go through the proper process to have so many people in the Middle East.  By that logic we’re there illegally and we need to leave


If you mean US soldiers? Well that's a different story.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> we Didn’t go through the proper process to have so many people in the Middle East.  By that logic we’re there illegally and we need to leave


Yeah no they shouldn't be there, but at the same time they're fighting a threat that has potential to affect their country so the preemptive protection of their country outweighs that. If it were a war that had no implication on their country's safety then I'd support removal.



WithMyBearHands said:


> Well you can’t blame me for not trusting someone whose OC is dressed as a fucking SS Officer lol


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> If you mean US soldiers? Well that's a different story.


Nobody wants them there.  Not the locals, not the soldiers themselves, not their families, and not the majority of sane civilians that just want to live in peace.  We didn’t even ask permission.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Immigrants with families still outside the US recieves remittance. Money going outside the country hurts the economy



An argument for increased immigration actually. If those families were here in the US, if immigration were easier, they could live here and spend their money within the economy, instead of being forced to live in a different country. 

Further, if you want to go that route, you might criticize free trade as well, although I doubt you would do that, considering how rich we've made your country via free trade.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Nobody wants them there.  Not the locals, not the soldiers themselves, not their families, and not the majority of sane civilians that just want to live in peace.  We didn’t even ask permission.


Well we're veering away from the topic (which is already in itself derailed :V)
But these solders are still there in the expense of the US, whatever their reason of stay there is another debate


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

My point is that social constructs about race and borders are fucking stupid and I’m low key pissed off that any of it is even a debate.  Just let people live ffs


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> My point is that social constructs about race and borders are fucking stupid and I’m low key pissed off that any of it is even a debate.  Just let people live ffs


That'll never be possible. Even in animals they still divide themselves. A black mouse will not help a white mouse in trouble unless it were raised by white mice thanks largely to the group association brought on by Oxytocin

And besides, it's good to have national identities with your own national border


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## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Nobody wants them there. Not the locals, not the soldiers themselves, not their families, and not the majority of sane civilians that just want to live in peace. We didn’t even ask permission.




i'll only say this once

you have not been there don't comment about it


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> if immigration were easier, they could live here and spend their money within the economy, instead of being forced to live in a different country.


There are cultural differences that would make this a problem, examples are Mexican and Filipino immigrants.
supporting an Extended Family is a norm in those countries so unless we take in an entire bloodline in the US that's going to be a problem.


BahgDaddy said:


> Further, if you want to go that route, you might criticize free trade as well, although I doubt you would do that, considering how rich we've made your country via free trade.


Indeed but the US also have benefitted alot from this trading relation so I cant say for sure if I can say the same for other countries


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> i'll only say this once
> 
> you have not been there don't comment about it



On the contrary, they are out soldiers, so of course we will comment about what our (ostensibly civilian controlled) military is doing. 


Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> There are cultural differences that would make this a problem, examples are Mexican and Filipino immigrants.
> supporting an Extended Family is a norm in those countries so unless we take in an entire bloodline in the US that's going to be a problem.
> 
> Indeed but the US also have benefitted alot from this trading relation so I cant say for sure if I can say the same for other countries



Maybe, but there are also corporations that send ever larger amounts of money overseas to hide in tax free havens.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Maybe, but there are also corporations that send ever larger amounts of money overseas to hide in tax free havens.


The US is working to stomp that down and I'm confident that the issue will resolve itself.
Illegal immigration is still a growing problem so that still remains to be seen


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The US is working to stomp that down and I'm confident that the issue will resolve itself.
> Illegal immigration is still a growing problem so that still remains to be seen



It's really not as large of a problem as the right wing would like to make it out to be. They're damaged our economy extensively and immigrants are a convenient "they're stealing out jobs" scapegoat.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> It's really not as large of a problem as the right wing would like to make it out to be. They're damaged our economy extensively and immigrants are a convenient "they're stealing out jobs" scapegoat.


They’re trying to direct attention at who’s getting the bigger pile of crumbs while they make off with the whole cake.
 Immigrants aren’t a problem, imaginary nationalist lines are.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> It's really not as large of a problem as the right wing would like to make it out to be. They're damaged our economy extensively and immigrants are a convenient "they're stealing out jobs" scapegoat.


Illegal immigration may not be "_the problem_" but it is still "_a problem_"
People just need to understand to respect a nation's right to control the flow of immigrants into the country so the government can easily support it's population.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Illegal immigration may not be "_the problem_" that but it is still "_a problem_"
> People just need to understand to respect a nation's right to control the flow of immigrants into the country so the government can easily support it's population.


I see it more as a matter of principle. You have laws that people have followed, going through a rightfully lengthy and difficult process.

Then you got these others who spit on it and skip through the entire process.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> I see it more as a matter of principle. You have laws that people have followed, going through a rightfully lengthy and difficult process.
> 
> Then you got these others who spit on it and skip through the entire process.


Time is of the essence in many cases.  If you’ve got a kid or something who’s sick and dying, and there’s a better chance to help the kid if you hop the border, I don’t fault anyone for that and legal process be damned.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Fuck it I’ll pull money out of my own pocket for that cause.  I make enough to cover my necessities and treat myself every now and then, and if I can find it in my budget so can the White House.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Time is of the essence in many cases.  If you’ve got a kid or something who’s sick and dying, and there’s a better chance to help the kid if you hop the border, I don’t fault anyone for that and legal process be damned.


The country has its own problems with medical care, so why should an illegal get special treatment? If you don't have the proper documentation and files necessary then you ideally don't deserve any help when you've crossed illegally into another country.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Fuck it I’ll pull money out of my own pocket for that cause.  I make enough to cover my necessities and treat myself every now and then, and if I can find it in my budget so can the White House.


The government cannot be rash about it. It's already in 13 trillion in debt.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> The country has its own problems with medical care, so why should an illegal get special treatment? If you don't have the proper documentation and files necessary then you ideally don't deserve any help when you've crossed illegally into another country.


Yeah and we’re not fixing those either.  It’s all fucked and people just like to hide behind “illegal immigrants” so they don’t have to admit that there’s a bigger problem.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The government cannot be rash about it. It's already in 13 trillion in debt.


Buying fancy jets that don’t work doesn’t help


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Yeah and we’re not fixing those either.  It’s all fucked and people just like to hide behind “illegal immigrants” so they don’t have to admit that there’s a bigger problem.


Oh I'd love to fix this terrible system so I can actually get quality and timely care, but it's not that easy. When your own countrymen are already having trouble receiving quality medical care then there's no room for illegals regardless of their situation


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Yeah and we’re not fixing those either. It’s all fucked and people just like to hide behind “illegal immigrants” so they don’t have to admit that there’s a bigger problem.


I understand how you wanted to help these people but the US cannot bear the problems of other countries. Look at haiti, it's entire economy relies on remittance from the US, this is not healthy..


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Y’all are pissed off at the wrong people.  Take the fight to the cunts that are making reliable healthcare and good international relations impossible, rather than other minorities having a hard enough time.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

We absolutely have the capability to help everyone beyond measure.  Humans are greedy bastards.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Y’all are pissed off at the wrong people. Take the fight to the cunts that are making reliable healthcare and good international relations impossible, rather than other minorities having a hard enough time.


We don't hate immigrants, we just don't like the illegal ones. We have to make this distinction


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Y’all are pissed off at the wrong people.  Take the fight to the cunts that are making reliable healthcare and good international relations impossible, rather than other minorities having a hard enough time.


Just because one problem is greater than the other doesn't mean the other _isn't_ a problem. As stated before:

Ilegalls are illegals. They do not deserve a country's help if they're there illegally.


Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> We don't hate immigrants, we just don't like the illegal ones. We have to make this distinction



I wholly support immigration so long as the immigrant in question has skills that will benefit the country and follows due process


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Who decided that it has to be such a lengthy process?  Mang this is dumb, I got work to do.


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> We don't hate immigrants, we just don't like the illegal ones. We have to make this distinction




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921605017542410240


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Who decided that it has to be such a lengthy process?  Mang this is dumb, I got work to do.


A lengthy process allows for proper vetting and greater control over the influx of new citizens


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Who decided that it has to be such a lengthy process?  Mang this is dumb, I got work to do.




ok i'll be blunt i had a mate who just came back from stopping refugee boats to process them in a detention centre 

you say let these people in 

except we found 8 ISIS members onboard posing as refugees and they were the ones we could cross reference with other databases 

no we should not let everyone in


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 15, 2018)

www.washingtonpost.com: A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries

Judging by this little study if found, Western countries actually appear to be pretty tolerant of living with other races compared to non Western countries.
Granted, _*any*_ amount of racism should be frowned upon. But we shouldn't make vast generalizations about nations and groups when one act of racism occurs, especially if said generalizations are statistically false.


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 15, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> www.washingtonpost.com: A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries
> 
> Judging by this little study if found, Western countries actually appear to be pretty tolerant of living with other races compared to non Western countries.
> Granted, _*any*_ amount of racism should be frowned upon. But we shouldn't make vast generalizations about nations and groups when one act of racism occurs, especially if said generalizations are statistically false.




its current year only white people can be racist and England is some how racist for being the one place where white people should be allowed to you know... have pride and live in their ancestral homeland


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

Lcs said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921605017542410240


I am not aware of the change. I'm capable of forming my own opinion, I don't support the change and this doesn't represent all of us conservatives and Republicans


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> ok i'll be blunt i had a mate who just came back from stopping refugee boats to process them in a detention centre
> 
> you say let these people in
> 
> ...


Cool, then cross reference them and boot them.  The rest did nothing wrong.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The government cannot be rash about it. It's already in 13 trillion in debt.



Much of that debt is to ourselves. It's not really an issue.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 15, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> its current year only white people can be racist and England is some how racist for being the one place where white people should be allowed to you know... have pride and live in their ancestral homeland



Its *not* England that punishes homosexuality by death.

Its *not* Germany that treats women as second class citizens.

Its *not* Sweden or Italy that still practices modern slavery.

Its *not* the United States that persecutes Jews by beheading them.

Its* not *Australia that makes sex trafficking and rape perfectly legal.

Why would I or anyone be ashamed of living in the West or embracing our cultures and values? We stopped doing this shit long ago.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

I don’t pay taxes to give handouts to man-babies that want to dodge drafts and chill at an exclusive golf course while the world crashes around them.  I pay taxes to contribute to the greater good of helping others and being able to drive on the roads that are still riddled with potholes.  Our budget is fucked.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Cool, then cross reference them and boot them.  The rest did nothing wrong.


If they're crossing illegally then no, you turn them away.

If it's part of the small few that come in via government programs then, after they've been checked, you can let them in.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Its *not* England that punishes homosexuality by death.
> 
> Its *not* Germany that treats women as second class citizens.
> 
> ...



Some areas of the Middle East indeed have those problems. In many instances though, that is false. Some areas of the Middle East are in fact quite progressive. Reading publications like National Geographic is a great way to learn more about such regions without the filter if right wing propaganda.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Some areas of the Middle East indeed have those problems. In many instances though, that is false. Some areas of the Middle East are in fact quite progressive. Reading publications like National Geographic is a great way to learn more about such regions without the filter if right wing propaganda.


I remember reading an article on a website where a middle eastern country passed a law that would allow women to drive by themselves, and even opened up several movie theaters for the first time. It was a real eye opener for me because it challenged my preconceived views I was fed from the news. So yes, these negative things we here about in other areas should never be painted with such a wide brush. Doing so can sometimes cause more problems than it solves.


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Some areas of the Middle East indeed have those problems. In many instances though, that is false. Some areas of the Middle East are in fact quite progressive. Reading publications like National Geographic is a great way to learn more about such regions without the filter if right wing propaganda.


The Middle East region is still a pretty shitty place to live.



Infrarednexus said:


> Its *not* England that punishes homosexuality by death.
> 
> Its *not* Germany that treats women as second class citizens.
> 
> ...


I'd like to think that developed and developing countries have different standards.

There's nothing to be ashamed about living in a developed nation, but that doesn't mean you can't recognise the issues they still have and deal with them.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

Lcs said:


> The Middle East is still a pretty shitty place to live.
> 
> Anyway, I'd like to think that Western and non-Western countries have different standards.
> 
> There's nothing to be ashamed about being a part of a developed nation, but that doesn't mean you can't recognise issues and deal with them



Overall I agree and I'm glad I don't live there, but painting the entire region as nothing but backwards sex traffickers who probably bang goats in their spare time is very unhelpful. (I'm not saying anyone specifically indicted that, only that it's how it can come across.)


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I remember reading an article on a website where a middle eastern country passed a law that would allow women to drive by themselves, and even opened up several movie theaters for the first time. It was a real eye opener for me because it challenged my preconceived views I was fed from the news. So yes, these negative things we here about in other areas should never be painted with such a wide brush. Doing so can sometimes cause more problems than it solves.


It was in Saudi Arabia.

Supposedly the first film to be screened (after the ban was lifted) was The Emoji Movie, lol.


----------



## Izzy4895 (Apr 15, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Aside from this being pretty obvious bait, and bound to end in a shitshow...
> 
> Yes, racism still does exist. There are plenty of fucked up, backwards people in this world. However, I don’t think racist *actions *exist very frequently on a day to day basis frankly.
> 
> ...



It's a stretch, to put it mildly, that humans are "naturally racist", even though people have biases.  The article you posted itself hints at this:



> Humans are biased in how we interpret information. Our physiological abilities (hearing, sight, olfaction, etc.) vary across people, but it’s our cognitive interpretations of these senses that act as the biasing filter. We develop our cognitive filter *in the process of learning how to be a member of a society, and it affects our whole lives. Social scientists call this enculturation and development. And it creates implicit biases.*





> While we’re all familiar with the old adage “you are what you eat,” few realize that when it comes to humans “you are who you meet.” *The people we encounter on a daily basis, speak with, learn from, and hear about regularly are core to our developing perceptions. Our social development, schooling, gender acquisition, peer group interaction, and parental and sibling interactions have an enormous impact on shaping how we respond to social stimuli. The patterns that we participate in and that surround us daily shape our perceptions of what behavior, language, and mannerisms are “normal and natural.”*





> *But biases and our current state of fear, ignorance, and anger need not be a reality set in stone.  Societies, people, and attitudes can and do change.* The USA has brought about major changes in civil and social rights over the past 50 years and we can strive for even greater changes over the next 50 – but not until we recognize our biases and the unequal experiences that cause these biases. Inaction and ignorance guarantee that racist biases, and racism, will persevere.



(emphasis mine)

Such biases are going to inevitably occur when people grow up on a society predicated on racial inequalities (and legal protections don't get around the issue of such things still being a problem).  It is conditions that play a key role here, and such conditions can also apply to ethnicity.  Take the collapse of Yugoslavia in the early 1990's, for instance.  While I am not defending Tito's Stalinist regime by any means, the Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, etc. weren't constantly at each others' throats during those times.  The situation changed for the worse when the economy fell apart; when there is scarcity, people will divide themselves based on petty but similar characteristics and fight against others.



Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Then the subject veers whether there is enough job for everyone to have.
> 
> With less jobs to give actual american citizens more americans rely on welfare.
> It doesn't help that businesses have the tendency to hire immigrants due to cheap labor.
> ...



You have already lost the argument by resorting to the "fake news" defense.  No attempt whatsoever was made to analyze the background information in question, let alone offer any sort of concrete rebuttal.

While this Forbes article is brief, it does make note that Japan wouldn't be dealing with long-term economic crisis if the anti-immigrant arguments were grounded in reality.

This is also relevant to the original discussion:








Lcs said:


> The Middle East region is still a pretty shitty place to live.



The United States government has a long history of backing Jihadists in that region to promote its own interests (they backed Bin Laden during the Soviet-Afghan War, and his movement became a Frankenstein's monster that came back to bite the hand that fed it).  Donald Trump himself, who railed against "radical Islamic terrorism" on the campaign trail, sold $110 billion of "beautiful weapons" to Islamist Saudi Arabia (the Saudi regime's military, by the way, has been bombing hospitals in Yemen).  Many of the recent problems going on in the Middle East can be traced back to foreign intervention stemming from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.



GreenZone said:


> you really can't compare US and AUS like that America is like a democratic Plutocracy the Australian Westminster system is very close to a pure democracy and besides that our minimum wages are about 3x-4x what the US is we're paid a lot more than they are
> 
> i know my job when compared to a US Marine is something like 8x the amount



Higher average wages and living standards in Australia still do not eliminate the deleterious effects of racism and xenophobia.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> It always makes me sad to read stuff like this, where people are instantly jumping to conclusions about people based on skin color.
> 
> www.nytimes.com: A Black Teenager Asked for Directions. A Man Responded With Gunfire.



Considering the crime rate in Rochester Hills is 77% lower than the average for areas of its size, there was no reason for the people to assume the person was trying to rob them.

I think it's mostly the fear.  You hear so much about crime rate from black people, and some people are so ignorant to forget the various circumstances, factors, and variables that leads to that number and tend to attribute it via Group Identity.

This is why I hate Identity Politics.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 15, 2018)

Izzy4895 said:


> It's a stretch, to put it mildly, that humans are "naturally racist", even though people have biases.  The article you posted itself hints at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not only is Implicit Bias impossible to track reliably, it's entirely incoherent as a diagnostic method.  You can't track someone's unconscious or implicit biases, even if they do exist.






Here Peterson is referring to an Implicit Bias test to track unconscious Biases in people.


----------



## Illuminaughty (Apr 15, 2018)

Personally I do not think racism is inherent. I didn't grow up looking at people of other races and thinking they were different or weird. They were just kids, just people. One of my earliest memories is sitting in the car with my dad who was talking about homosexuality, and my response as a five year old child raised in a Christian community who had never been presented with the idea of same sex relationships before was something to the tune of "If they're happy I don't see the problem".

These are learned behaviours, and for that I do believe there's a lot of hope- because learned behaviours can be unlearned. They can be changed and redirected and erased altogether through generations. Nobody is born racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. These are things we learn through our parents, our media, our friends, our religion, etc. There is no such thing as "a sexist" or "a racist", because those are not personality traits or personal ideologies, they are *behaviours*. One can _choose_ not to be racist or sexist or homophobic, even if those behaviours have been taught to them their entire lives.

To say these are inherent traits is to deny humanity its own. Give yourself some credit for capacity to be good, and stop shirking responsibility for your behaviour. In my opinion, being a complete and total jerk is a choice, and you're the only one who can make it for yourself.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

God this thread is a trainwreck


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Im honestly just sick of the whole “us vs them” mentality, especially when the US and THEM parties aren’t who they should be.  You’re not fucking special just because you happened to be born in America or wherever else.  It doesn’t make you more deserving of a chance to succeed in life than everyone else.  Instead, try questioning WHY thats the social norm.  We’re humans, we know what’s right and what’s wrong, and we know that it’s right to help our fellow humans in need.  Doesn’t matter where they’re from or how they got anywhere.  Only way people don’t deserve help is if they’re just a piece of shit.  And that definition can be as loose as you want it to mean.


----------



## Illuminaughty (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> The country has its own problems with medical care, so why should an illegal get special treatment? If you don't have the proper documentation and files necessary then you ideally don't deserve any help when you've crossed illegally into another country.



We have problems with our medical care because it's throttled by love of money over practicality. Healthcare and sciences pursuing advancement in medical technology should not be a corporation behind which the only motivation is profit, and people should view the healthcare system with a more intense scrutiny for it.

Personally, I'd like to be part of a nation that is indiscriminately kind and helpful- even if we wouldn't get the same treatment. We have the resources to do so- but power is a drug and greed is a sickness. And it seems this is a nation where drugs and sickness are wont to thrive. Not to say that can't change- but the overall mentality will have to change first. That starts from within- with the people.

Personally I've never found it difficult to put myself in others' shoes- for those whom that isn't a strong skill, it's easy to say what they should be doing. But you have never been in their situation- how can you know? If it were such a simple problem, wouldn't the refugees themselves have already figured it out?

Nobody wants to be put into a situation where they have to flee their home in order to keep their life. They aren't doing any of this to be spiteful or feed some sinister agenda, they're just human beings who have no other options for survival.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Illuminaughty said:


> We have problems with our medical care because it's throttled by love of money over practicality. Healthcare and sciences pursuing advancement in medical technology should not be a corporation behind which the only motivation is profit, and people should view the healthcare system with a more intense scrutiny for it.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to be part of a nation that is indiscriminately kind and helpful- even if we wouldn't get the same treatment. We have the resources to do so- but power is a drug and greed is a sickness. And it seems this is a nation where drugs and sickness are wont to thrive.


Fucking broke the like button


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 15, 2018)

Lcs said:


> The Middle East region is still a pretty shitty place to live.
> 
> 
> I'd like to think that developed and developing countries have different standards.
> ...



Sure, but that certainly doesn't mean you look at the small single loose screws in our system when there's entire nations that don't know the concept of female liberation.

Christian missionaries are willing to go out and risk their lives to spread their faith.  Why aren't radical feminists doing the same?

Point is, we can be doing far more good by helping developing countries rather than a country that is already fairly equal.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Im honestly just sick of the whole “us vs them” mentality, especially when the US and THEM parties aren’t who they should be.  You’re not fucking special just because you happened to be born in America or wherever else.  It doesn’t make you more deserving of a chance to succeed in life than everyone else.  Instead, try questioning WHY thats the social norm.  We’re humans, we know what’s right and what’s wrong, and we know that it’s right to help our fellow humans in need.  Doesn’t matter where they’re from or how they got anywhere.  Only way people don’t deserve help is if they’re just a piece of shit.  And that definition can be as loose as you want it to mean.


Special? No, I'm not. But what I am is a citizen of my country and as such, am entitled to what my country offers its citizens. Illegals on the other hand, do not deserve this since they were not only born outside of the country, but also came into it without valid documentation and process. That in essence is a waste of time an resources that would be better spent on a legal immigrant whom has done the process to remain here.



Illuminaughty said:


> We have problems with our medical care because it's throttled by love of money over practicality. Healthcare and sciences pursuing advancement in medical technology should not be a corporation behind which the only motivation is profit, and people should view the healthcare system with a more intense scrutiny for it.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to be part of a nation that is indiscriminately kind and helpful- even if we wouldn't get the same treatment. We have the resources to do so- but power is a drug and greed is a sickness. And it seems this is a nation where drugs and sickness are wont to thrive. Not to say that can't change- but the overall mentality will have to change first. That starts from within- with the people.
> 
> ...


Our problems stem from incompetence from the provincial government whom refuse to acknowledge _why _our care specifically is absolutely horrid despite programs and initiatives put in place.

I acknowledge that a refugee's situation is shitty but that doesn't really affect our country so it _should _be tough shit for them. Anything that bypasses the long process of legal immigration just spits in the face of those who've actually gone through it.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> Special? No, I'm not. But what I am is a citizen of my country and as such, am entitled to what my country offers its citizens. Illegals on the other hand, do not deserve this since they were not only born outside of the country, but also came into it without valid documentation and process. That in essence is a waste of time an resources that would be better spent on a legal immigrant whom has done the process to remain here.
> 
> 
> Our problems stem from incompetence from the provincial government whom refuse to acknowledge _why _our care specifically is absolutely horrid despite programs and initiatives put in place.
> ...


Have you ever considered that maybe the “legal process” is mostly xenophobic bullshit?  Also saying that refugees deserve to deal with it is a pretty terrible thing to say.  But again you seem to be just fine posting Nazi uniforms so proudly, so I don’t know why I bother.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Have you ever considered that maybe the “legal process” is mostly xenophobic bullshit?  Also saying that refugees deserve to deal with it is a pretty terrible thing to say


No, not really. As I stated above the process is in place to ensure that not only are the prospective immigrant(s) of value to the country, but also allows us to ensure they're not associated with some kind of terrorist group. Secondly, that's problems in their country that rarely affect mine. Other countries have contributed to their problems in the past but, well that's just their poor drawing in the lottery.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> No, not really. As I stated above the process is in place to ensure that not only are the prospective immigrant(s) of value to the country, but also allows us to ensure they're not associated with some kind of terrorist group. Secondly, that's problems in their country that rarely affect mine. Other countries have contributed to their problems in the past but, well that's just their poor drawing in the lottery.


So you’re saying that we shouldn’t even TRY to help the less fortunate.  How shitty.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Fuck the process bro, come up with an actual explanation rather than hiding behind “not my problem”


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> So you’re saying that we shouldn’t even TRY to help the less fortunate.  How shitty.


Helping the less fortunate legal citizens in my country? Absolutely fine with my tax dollars going to that considering we pay among the highest rates for taxation. Helping outside of my country? I have no interest in that.



WithMyBearHands said:


> Fuck the process bro, come up with an actual explanation rather than hiding behind “not my problem”


You're sending mixed messages here. Do you want an explanation on why the immigration process is good? Or something else?


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

I think what he wants is to just let everyone in :V


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I think what he wants is to just let everyone in :V


Sweden decided to let everyone in, now look what happened to them. Immigration can be beneficial under certain circumstances, but it's disastrous without any form of law or regulation.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I think what he wants is to just let everyone in :V


Well that's just no bueno


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Glad you’re not talking about me bc I have a vagina.  Also, your countrymen are not better than anyone else just because they were born in a specific place.  Nationalism is a plague


----------



## Sagt (Apr 15, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Sure, but that certainly doesn't mean you look at the small single loose screws in our system when there's entire nations that don't know the concept of female liberation.
> 
> Christian missionaries are willing to go out and risk their lives to spread their faith.  Why aren't radical feminists doing the same?
> 
> Point is, we can be doing far more good by helping developing countries rather than a country that is already fairly equal.


I think a lot of people consider these issues to be more than loose screws, hence why they're concerned about them.

Anyway, you're taking a status quo position here. 

These things aren't mutually exlusive, so I don't see why we shouldn't do both. That is, correcting unfairness in ones own country, while also helping other countries improve too.

Helping other nations with their issues is a lot more challenging than dealing with your own, I'll mention. I mean, the Middle Eastern countries need some new laws - that's something that's quite challenging for people living in a seperate country to change.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

But w/e I’m done arguing humanity with furries who think it’s cool to dress up like Nazis


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Glad you’re not talking about me bc I have a vagina.  Also, your countrymen are not better than anyone else just because they were born in a specific place.  Nationalism is a plague


No they're not better than anyone else but, like me, they're legal citizens of this country, whether by birth or legal immigration.

And nationalism is fine to have as long as you're not full-blown _no outsiders period_.


----------



## Arwing Ace (Apr 15, 2018)

This incident happened in crime infested Detroit, where everyone is paranoid about being murdered/assaulted/raped/robbed. I'm not the least bit surprised.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> God this thread is a trainwreck



Honestly it's going quite well imo



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Considering the crime rate in Rochester Hills is 77% lower than the average for areas of its size, there was no reason for the people to assume the person was trying to rob them.
> 
> I think it's mostly the fear.  You hear so much about crime rate from black people, and some people are so ignorant to forget the various circumstances, factors, and variables that leads to that number and tend to attribute it via Group Identity.
> 
> This is why I hate Identity Politics.



Thank you, that's a great comment


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Honestly it's going quite well imo


Don't Jynx it! :V


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 15, 2018)

Lcs said:


> I think a lot of people consider these issues to be more than loose screws, hence why they're concerned about them.
> 
> Anyway, you're taking a status quo position here.
> 
> ...



I think when we start worrying about manspreading and reviving pay gap myths, we are LOOKING for things wrong.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I think when we start worrying about manspreading and reviving pay gap myths, we are LOOKING for things wrong.


Gender inequality is still very much an issue, just not the current topic.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 15, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Gender inequality is still very much an issue, just not the current topic.



If it's as much of an issue as racism, then we don't need to worry about much.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> If it's as much of an issue as racism, then we don't need to worry about much.


Lol okay.  Must be nice to live in that cocoon of yours


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> View attachment 30471
> Welfare eats a good chunk of the US budget each year 1.03 trillion



Yeah, because Medicaid is tacked on. Medicaid is not just for the unemployed poor, it is for the working poor, disabled, veterans, and wards of the state. It also includes unemployment benefits.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> If it's as much of an issue as racism, then we don't need to worry about much.



Sorry, what are you saying?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Yeah, because Medicaid is tacked on. Medicaid is not just for the unemployed poor, it is for the working poor, disabled, veterans, and wards of the state. It also includes unemployment benefits.


But don’t worry, if the current clowns in power have their way, it won’t be for much longer bc fuck poor people amirite lololololol


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## LogicNuke (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Immigrants with families still outside the US recieves remittance. Money going outside the country hurts the economy


Not necessarily. The US is Mexico's largest trading partner. Many Mexicans buy American products and services sold in Mexico while many Americans buy products manufactured in Mexico. Actually, Mexico, the US, and Canada fuel each others economies to a degree because the unique nature of the NAFTA trade agreement.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 15, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Sorry, what are you saying?



I'm saying that, like Racism, it's blown up by media and faddish activist groups.

The scale of the issue is magnified through a microscope.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Then the subject veers whether there is enough job for everyone to have.
> 
> With less jobs to give actual american citizens more americans rely on welfare.
> It doesn't help that businesses have the tendency to hire immigrants due to cheap labor.
> ...


Politely, Newsweek is hardly a liberal new source in America.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I understand how you wanted to help these people but the US cannot bear the problems of other countries. Look at haiti, it's entire economy relies on remittance from the US, this is not healthy..


It was a healthy enough arrangement for Japan after World War II. After the war, the United States handled most of Japan's defense and continues to even today. The capital Japan didn't need to spend on its defense budget it was able to actually invest in other sectors, fueling its remarkable growth. I've seen you comment about concerns regard communism. The United States has defended Japan from the communist threat of China and Russia for decades. Other countries may not like the fact that the United States has been lynchpin of global international order for decades, but we are seeing right now what happens when positive American influence recedes from the world. Russia is expanding its sphere of influence in eastern Europe and the Middle East. China is making unprecedented aggressive moves in the South China Sea, threatening Japanese sovereignty and trade. A critical ally of ours is being neutered economically and strategically and we are doing virtually nothing. There is a reason why opinion polls in Japan have Trump's popularity at 15-18%.


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 15, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> It was a healthy enough arrangement for Japan after World War II. After the war, the United States handled most of Japan's defense and continues to even today. The capital Japan didn't need to spend on its defense budget it was able to actually invest in other sectors, fueling its remarkable growth. I've seen you comment about concerns regard communism. The United States has defended Japan from the communist threat of China and Russia for decades. Other countries may not like the fact that the United States has been lynchpin of global international order for decades, but we are seeing right now what happens when positive American influence recedes from the world. Russia is expanding its sphere of influence in eastern Europe and the Middle East. China is making unprecedented aggressive moves in the South China Sea, threatening Japanese sovereignty and trade. A critical ally of ours is being neutered economically and strategically and we are doing virtually nothing. There is a reason why opinion polls in Japan have Trump's popularity at 15-18%.



It's not a problem if the US is benefiting from the arrangement, Japan stood to be the 4th largest trading partner because it a major trading access to the east region. Japan's demilitarization was due to the result of the war and US' interest. So yes, I agree... it is a healthy arrangement indeed


LogicNuke said:


> Not necessarily. The US is Mexico's largest trading partner. Many Mexicans buy American products and services sold in Mexico while many Americans buy products manufactured in Mexico. Actually, Mexico, the US, and Canada fuel each others economies to a degree because the unique nature of the NAFTA trade agreement.


But my statement isn't specifically made for mexico alone but as a whole in general.


I'm derping today :V


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## LogicNuke (Apr 15, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> It's not a problem if the US is benefiting from the arrangement, Japan stood to be the 4th largest trading partner because it a major trading access to the east region. Japan's demilitarization was due to the result of the war and US' interest. So yes, I agree... it is a healthy arrangement indeed
> 
> But my statement isn't specifically made for mexico alone but as a whole in general.
> 
> ...


Generally, globalization has dramatically enhanced the living conditions and economies of emerging markets. Even remittances contribute global trade and incentivize workers to move where they find work to support their families from aboard. We gain more economically than we lose through remittances.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 15, 2018)

Your kindergarten teachers weren’t bullshitting you when they told you working together was the best way to get something done.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 15, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Generally, globalization has dramatically enhanced the living conditions and economies of emerging markets. Even remittances contribute global trade and incentivize workers to move where they find work to support their families from aboard. We gain more economically than we lose through remittances.



There's both pros and cons to this, however. It's commonly argued that globalization resulted in the destruction of the american manufacturing economy, and there's a fair bit of evidence to back it up. For many decades towards the beginning of the 20th century, we made many, many things. After we opened trade with NAFTA under Clinton, we were able to buy goods far cheaper abroad and companies also began outsourcing their labor to countries with far less strict environmental and worker laws. As a result many Midwest manufacturing cities were hit hard, and those included especially inner city areas, where I believe blacks had recently congregated finding work. Oops. Turns out economics is sometimes a bit racist on accident. (There may have been other reasons blacks were in the inner cities, and of course any whites trying to work were hit hard as well, especially in small towns across the rural landscape.)


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## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 15, 2018)

Welcome to 'Murica everyone. As long as women, gays and blacks have it worse than trailer-trash white guys, then everything's hunky dory.


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## Dreva (Apr 16, 2018)

It's quite wrong to assume that America is the most racist society in the world because I can assure you that many third-world Asian countries are even worse. 

However racism here (in my country at least) is more about cultural and religious rather than race or color of your skin. 

When I was a little kid, some Muslim mobs attempted to organize a pogrom on my neighborhoods which conveniently housed majority of my ethnic group, though my parents and other residents managed to deter the mob by arming themselves with whatever weapons they could get hold of (my dad went with replica samurai sword and my uncle went with air soft gun). 

They did however looted my dad's shops (atm we thanked gods though that they only looted it not burnt it to the ground) and that's where I learnt few things about racism in Asia. When I went to the looted business district where my dad's shop were looted, I saw some charred shops nearby hanging a banner "This property belongs to native citizen" in failed attempt to dissuade the mobs from the looting spree. However, I saw another intact shops hanging banners "This property belongs to native citizen of Muslim faith" with some Arabic scripts. So there I learnt that I needed to blend in to survive.

Now though, I managed to avoid racism mostly by adapting to the people I interact. When I'm with my friends or people I know to be liberal Muslims, I can act as my true self, an atheist from minority ethnic group without suffering any prejudice. 

When I visited a hard-line Sharia governed areas, I've learnt to recite few important surat from their Quran and I grow beard to disguise my appearance, and so far I'm just doing fine even with hater-preaching al-qaeda symphatizer clerics. I just had to play along with their games without having to necessarily agree with their views.

When I visited an enclave of Christian community in my country, I could recite to them the whole content of gospels like parables of Jesus and passion of the Christ so then it was another easy task to earn their respect and blend in. When I visited Tibet with my Chinese friend, he had to recite some sutras from Buddha Gautama to convince an innkeeper not to kick him out from the village. 

I'm learning some Yiddish and, Misnah and Tefilah from Talmud so one day I wouldn't get thrown out when I visit Mea Sharim during Sabbath in Jerusalem. 

So there you go, I believe it's more about how you adapt to your surroundings rather than how you complain about how society discriminate "other people".


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## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Dreva said:


> It's quite wrong to assume that America is the most racist society in the world because I can assure you that many third-world Asian countries are even worse.
> 
> However racism here (in my country at least) is more about cultural and religious rather than race or color of your skin.
> 
> ...



I've lived in Jerusalem for time. It's a beautiful city with a lot history, despite the tensions. What you talk about here is assimilating to community while you are in it, which is important, but true tolerance is a two-way street. There should be acceptance and respect on _both _sides in order to have healthy coexistence.


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## GreenZone (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Cool, then cross reference them and boot them.  The rest did nothing wrong.



the rest did do something wrong i can understand why you liberals want everything to be rainbows and unicorn farts but we live in the real world many of these refugees 

1. are not educated or even literate 
2. cannot integrate with our society (mostly shiites) 
3. i would say 80% of them are not genuine (look up economic migrant) 
4. just because some one rocks up on a boat saying that are a refugee does not make it so 
5. they leave their wives and kids behind to die while they run away do you really want people like that in your country 
6. they destroy their identity and you have 35 year olds trying to say they are 15 not only does this waste time but it holds up resources making processing take longer 


i know you are anti war and stuff but you have not been to the middle east and to be frank saying that the locals don't want us there is rather insulting many times we were begged to do more not leave we cannot help these people in the way we want to because of the UN they tie our hands the best way to help these people would be full scale invasion and subsequent occupation for a decade or two until they are rehabilitated don't forget the middle east was almost identical to the west once before the Shiites took control 














this is what these people want for life to return to that again 

we went on a normal patrol to seek out some bandits in the area they found out we were coming then fled the next day locals came to us with food some weeping that one act of just walking through the desert caused this town none of us cared about to be freed from bandits that had been killing live stock killing boys raping women and children and robbing old men for almost a decade and a half 

and then we had to leave what do you think is going to happen to that town? you honestly think that without us there as security the bandits would have magically seen the error of their ways? or are they going to return 

so yes we help people but we can't help everyone its something you have to accept i'm sorry i wish i could help them but we cannot save everyone and you trying to paint the coalition forces as the devil helps no one


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## Dreva (Apr 16, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> the rest did do something wrong i can understand why you liberals want everything to be rainbows and unicorn farts but we live in the real world many of these refugees
> 
> 1. are not educated or even literate
> 2. cannot integrate with our society (mostly shiites)
> ...



So from what you just said above, I could assume you were from Iranian. But I beg to differ that it wasn't the Shiite that was the instigator of the White Revolution in Iran but it was hardline cleric no matter if they were Shiite or Sunni. After all, most of secular Iranians could trace their roots to Shiism. 

Now going bit off topic, Western people loves to bash Iranian society as the abyss of Islamic extremism but from what I saw, it is not the case. Many Iranians long from the return of the old liberal regime of Shah and shun Islamic tyranny imposed on them. They still celebrate nation wide Festival of Sadeh which traced its root to pre-Islamic Zoroastrian tradition and they even kept Fire Temple of Yazd alight and safe. More and more of Iranian I know have their kids named after heroes of Shahnameh or Avestan liturgy, all of them are from pre-Islamic sources which somehow imply that they adhere for more of their culture rather than their religion. So I think the counter-culture movement in the society against the regime is especially strong compared to other Middle Eastern nation.


Back to topic on racism. The problem with Western liberal lefts is that they are obsessed and blinded by the idea of cultural sensitivity and political correctness. Liberal lefts are deluding themselves that somehow when they preached love of  multiculturalism, everyone regardless of their beliefs, creeds and groups will somehow from a peace-loving melting pot and liberal value lover. 

The reality is, many of them are not. As LogicNuke said earlier that tolerance should be two-way street. The bitter truth is some people no matter how hard you try will never change their value or belief no matter how ridiculous they are. In my country there are many the likes of Houston S. Chamberlain who no matter how hard you tried to convince the fact contrary to their deluded belief will only offer alternative fictional views of the world.

I believe that extremism thrive because the society is not proactively fighting them. Maajid Nawaz (an British-Pakistani activist who fights both Islamophobia and Islamic extremism) said that liberal Muslims will always run in contrary to their hard-line counterpart. The problem is hardliner will always be louder in words and actions. Hardliner will not refrain from intimidation, violence, fact-twisting and hate preaching. 

Western government and liberal lefties in general thought that it was internal Muslim community problem and should be addressed within community. Nawaz argued otherwise. As a former extremist, he said that liberal muslim simply does not have enough firepower against their more aggressive hardliner counterpart. Instead they are left to fight a hopeless battle alone.

Liberal lefties argue that meddling such intra-communal problem constitute cultural insensitivity, an attack on freedom of expression, and worst of all, racism. If that was the case, then why the lefties didn't leave KKK alone? After all, they were supposedly only expressing their freedom of thought?

Maajid Nawaz argued that the root of Islamophobia came from Islamic terrorism and extremism such as Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Hizbut Tahrir and most recently ISIL. 

Why on Earth the western government allow the same hate speech attack from these sympathizers against their enemies, Jewish, Ahmadiyas, dissident Muslims, Muhammad cartoon-drawers, ex-Muslims to name few, Nawaz argued? After all, these governments supposedly cracked down on racist attack from KKK or white supremacist on other minority?

Therefore, I believe that liberal and dissident Muslim communities in Western countries to form united front with Western Liberals and governments to launch unison and relentless attack on these nefarious element that besmirch on Islam name. Western liberals and government could no longer tolerate such toxic to thrive in their society hiding under the skirt of freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of expression while these very same hardliners preached opposing views to undermine the value they are hiding under.

Liberal lefties should leave behind their delusion ideas and be more open to what others have to say. Try reading Maajid Nawaz book instead of Southern Poverty Center trying to blacklist him for being "Islamophobic" while he himself are fighting hard against Islamophobia and trying to solve the root cause of the problem in the first place.

Let the fight against any religious extremism no longer be labelled as "racist", "culturally insensitive", "Trump Lover", etc, etc, etc.

That's how I believe we should re-assess our view on racism.

Cheers


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## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

@WithMyBearHands @GreenZone

You're both right. You're just seeing different facets of the same problem.

First, I think we are muddling and mixing various refugee crises. The refugee/illegal immigration situation Australia is facing is very different from the refugee crisis Europe is dealing with. Australia has been experiencing an influx of mostly economic refugees looking for higher quality of life for years now, excepting refugees from East Timor and Indonesia, mainly because this is a case of You Helped Break It Now You Brought It over the funny business in 1976. Australia has actually been accepting refugee at an extraordinarily high rate and recently has closed several refugee detention centers, allowing detainees to become citizens. In addition, Australia also has future commitments to accept climate refugees from Kiribati, which will be one of the first nations to sink due to sea level rise. Australia has been pulling its weight when it comes to accepting refugees.

The influx of refugees from the Middle East is primarily due to military conflict and political instability in mainly Syria, Libya, and Iraq, with economic refugees from Northern Africa mixed in. The European Union, Canada, and the United States as a whole has the capacity to absorb this influx, provided every state adhered to the resettlement quotas they initially agreed to before the temporary rise of right-wing populism in Europe.

Now, the burden of resettling refugees should be spread based on a country's ability accept them. The entire European Union, the United States, and Canada should be distributing the burden of relocation, not just a few EU member states who remember their obligations.

Germany has been taking the lead in accepting new refugees because it has the strongest economy in EU. It can afford to take in millions and that is what they are committing. The UK, under the economic fallout from Brexit and preexisting austerity measures, cannot be so generous. However, it should be noted that there are countries like Hungary under Viktor Orban where they are not even bothering to meet their resettlement obligations under basic EU law. Then there is the fact that the United States is has drastically reduced the number of refugees it is accepting for spurious reasons despite having (until recently) a booming economy achieving record high in the stock market and a very good record of resettling refugees with jobs that pay their way in society.

As result, certain countries in Europe, the UK included, have had to pick up the slack. The reasonable solution to this problem would be to have a multilateral agreement between the United States, Canada, and the EU member states where resettlement quotas are fairly drawn up, with services for refugees provided private entities backed by government investment in those countries. This will lessen the burden on individual states and create jobs for both native and refugee populations in those states.

It is also worth noting that Europe has been suffering a demographics crisis where the larger retired older population is rapidly outpacing the smaller younger working population's ability to pay for its expenses. A infusion of refugees who become naturalized citizens could go a long way towards preventing that economic crisis.

Refugees can assimilate to their host societies given half a chance, as German studies have shown. Refugees can lead productive lives as citizens in countries that accept them and some can go back to their former countries after political situation has stabilized to take what they learned and make those countries better.

Having talked about the humanitarian aspect, I'll talk about the security and military aspects of managing and eventually solving the refugee crisis.

We need to verify the backgrounds of refugees as best we can, but realistically there will be holes. This is why refugees need to be tracked once in society and must have regular check-ins to make sure they meet certain assimilation benchmarks. Assimilated refugees are more likely to report terrorist infiltrators and or radicalized elements.

Another part of the military solution is that NATO member states need devise a cohesive foreign policy designed to reward moderate behavior from problematic Middle Eastern nations. The Iran nuclear agreement is one example of this. It gave us ten years before Iran could even begin developing crucial nuclear technology for its warheads and reliable monitoring of its civilian nuclear program. It also guaranteed an allied response if the violate the agreement. A lot of moderates in the country gained political ground as result from the agreement due the lifting of certain sanctions. The current protests that have been occurring in Tehran because many moderates do not want Iran to pull out of the agreement, despite Trump wanting to alter it. This is progress, but we need to let it happen.

Additionally, liberalism is growing in the Middle East, with largest Muslim-majority countries reporting that large majorities of the populations believe Sharia law is bad.

www.pewforum.org: Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

If we can foster these elements aboard, we can prevent the conditions that force people to flee their countries in the first place.

Now, we will definitely need military force to deal with disruptive elements like ISIS and Al Qeada, as well as emergent threats looking to fill vacuum like the Kuroshan network and the Haqqani network, but the best methods for dealing with these threats is coalition-building between NATO forces and indigienous elements that have a stake in the conflict like the Kurdish peshmerga and the more reliable element of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. But we need to make sure we protect infrastructure that supplies basic needs in battlespaces we protect because that what keeps the locals on the coalition's side and not the insurgents. Intelligence agencies also need to work on the squad level and with locals to cultivate intelligence contacts in these places.

I'm sorry if this is a bit incoherent. I almost fell asleep writing this. I might add more in an edit. Criticize away.


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

No, you’re right.  That’s what I’ve been saying this whole time.  The majority of disagreements come from a lack of communication.  With the exception of nuisances, of course.

Also, fun fact: despite whatever anyone is trying to tell themselves, I’m not a liberal.  I think you’re confusing my disapproval of foreign conflict as a general disregard to anyone it affects as a whole.  There’s just no need for petty wars that are only benefitting the fat cats at the top of the food chain.  It isn’t right.  And at least on this side of the pond, the veterans don’t have an easy time.  Thousands of them are sleeping on the street because the heartless pieces of shit who sent them out don’t take care of them when they come back home.  THESE are not people I want in my country.  Cruel politicians and piece of shit fake Christians need to be exiled imo


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## GreenZone (Apr 16, 2018)

couple of corrections 


LogicNuke said:


> economic refugees



Economic migrant you can't be a refugee for being poor the actual term is migrant 



LogicNuke said:


> excepting refugees from East Timor and Indonesia, mainly because this is a case of You Helped Break It Now You Brought It over the funny business in 1976.


Australia did nothing wrong it was indonesia they committed genocide and annexed a country and murdered a number of Australian journalists fleeing the country and to make matters worse when indonesia were told to withdraw they did.... except they killed every civilian and raised every village they passed 




LogicNuke said:


> Additionally, liberalism is growing in the Middle East, with largest Muslim-majority countries reporting that large majorities of the populations believe Sharia law is bad.



hence why i said Shiite ive served with Sunnis i even gave one the encouragement to openly prey in front of us they're very progressive and don't even care if you're atheist their view is god does not have a religion just worship him in your own way and live a moral life 



WithMyBearHands said:


> my disapproval of foreign conflict as a general disregard to anyone it affects as a whole. There’s just no need for petty wars that are only benefitting the fat cats at the top of the food chain.



[citation needed] what fat cats? what are you talking about? Afghanistan has nothing of value mate its got no oil no viable farming very little gold what value? drugs? WRONG we had to report opium farms to authorities to dispose what fat cats mate? fuck that attitude shits me off you just shit all over everyone who's died there trying to free people under real oppression



WithMyBearHands said:


> the veterans don’t have an easy time. Thousands of them are sleeping on the street because the heartless pieces of shit who sent them out don’t take care of them when they come back home.



America cannot support all their former vets there'd be millions of them so much money would be spent on them even Australia had to cut back on retirement funds and stuff things used to be you spent 20 years in and got half of what you were earning for the rest of your life so say when you retired you were making $1000 a week you'd get a $500 per week pension for the rest of your life now you get a superannuation fund which is like a trust fund that can't be accessed until you're 60 the Army puts a bit out of your pay each week but you can elect to put random deposits in 

in my personal case yes people are treated like shit we don't have the same problem with homeless vets since we're paid a shit ton more than soldiers in the US and get 6 figures when we go overseas but if you're injured that's another story i was told that the Army is not liable for a gunshot wound i sustained and had to pay the Army back for treatment and slight surgery its still something i'm fighting now


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> couple of corrections
> 
> 
> Economic migrant you can't be a refugee for being poor the actual term is migrant
> ...


Jfc do you wanna nitpick every post I’m gonna make here?  Over here acting like I’m just this horrible fucking monster that hates everyone bc I don’t like OUR reasons for being in a bullshit war that’s going nowhere.  I can’t speak for Australia.  But i can’t fucking stand it when people insist I feel a certain way, especially when it comes to such major issues.  You can be pro military and anti war.  You do know that right?


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## GreenZone (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Jfc do you wanna nitpick every post I’m gonna make here?



you're not picking up what i'm laying down

do you not see how what you are saying is offensive to both me and other servicemen/women on the forums? i am not the only one on this forum who has served or been deployed there's currently a seaman who's deployed to the Persian believe and i'm pretty sure @Sgt. Kai  has been to the sandpit aswell


this anti government anti military rhetoric you keep spouting is offensive end of story you are not saying "fuck trump" you are saying "fuck you your friends died over the Illuminati" this might surprise you but not everything is about gold and oil at no point was i or anyone told "go out there and make the fat cats some money" and to be frank that attitude is general ignorance because Australia, Germany, NZ, Canada, UK fuck even most of the time America run humanitarian missions they do not go and secure oil wells that was one mission it was called operation desert shield it happened in 1990 and you know what my country did during that? we built hospitals defused minefields and secured supply lines to towns so they could get food and water all paid for by ourselves

how is any of that feeding the "fat cats"


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> you're not picking up what i'm laying down
> 
> do you not see how what you are saying is offensive to both me and other servicemen/women on the forums? i am not the only one on this forum who has served or been deployed there's currently a seaman who's deployed to the Persian believe and i'm pretty sure @Sgt. Kai  has been to the sandpit aswell
> 
> ...


I guess I’m not bc I really don’t see how disapproving of inhumane practices is “offensive”.  I won’t doubt that people are doing some good over there but I don’t like that friends of mine have died over some greedy shit.  I’m allowed to formulate a goddamn opinion and don’t think for a fucking second that it’s not anything but a sympathetic one


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

And I absolutely AM saying fuck Trump


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## GreenZone (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> guess I’m not bc I really don’t see how disapproving of inhumane practices is “offensive”. I won’t doubt that people are doing some good over there but I don’t like that friends of mine have died over some greedy shit.



ok here's a tip if you're going to make comments like that with no citations explain what you mean at the very least 

you keep saying inhumane practices and greedy goals but you don't even explain yourself what greed? over what? what implied war crimes have happened?


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## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> ok here's a fucking tip if you make fucking comments like that fucking back them up or at the very least FUCKING EXPLAIN WHAT YOU FUCKING MEAN!
> 
> you keep saying inhumane practices and greedy goals but you don't even fucking explain yourself


Ya know what mang
It doesn’t look like I’m ever gonna be able  to have a civil interaction with you so I’m just gonna cut that off right now


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## Skychickens (Apr 16, 2018)

This is a problem everywhere. The thing that makes it so shocking here is we’re so marketed to being a melting pot it doesn’t make sense. We put such a big deal on what our nation of origin is that it’s always something on the forefront of our minds. 

You have to remember the US is a very young country. One that grew faster than any society could reasonably keep up with. A lot of our issues haven’t had time to resolve, and if you do some digging...are common issues in a young nation. 

I’m not saying it’s good, or that I stand by it no. I’m just quite fond of having more than one angle to consider.


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## GreenZone (Apr 16, 2018)

oh cool bear hands blocked me probably because she had no argument and kept spouting offensive shit without any form of citation or at the very least ever explaining what they meant


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## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> oh cool bear hands blocked me probably because she had no argument and kept spouting offensive shit without any form of citation or at the very least ever explaining what they meant


You're getting well known for being blocked by many :V


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

Racism is about as dumb and illogical as Donald Trump. No wonder 99% of his supporters are racist rednecks.


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## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

Saw this thread in the corner of my eye during sociology, thought I might share a study we're looking at that's kind of relevant.

Wood (2010) performed a study in which two versions of the same application form were created. They were all identical except for the name. One version has a 'white' name, the other had an 'ethnic minority' name, The study found that 1/16 'minority' applications were invited to interview, compared to 1/9 'white' applications.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> oh cool bear hands blocked me probably because she had no argument and kept spouting offensive shit without any form of citation or at the very least ever explaining what they meant


Son, don't talk for me. I served. I served a corrupt government. Doing terrible things to other countries. Everybody talks about how few of us servicemen and women were killed in these two conflicts. Wars that should not even have happened. But nobody talks about tbe millions of innocent civilians who died from OUR fire. Believe me when I say that we killed 10 times as many civilians as we did Taliban or Rebels. But of course those were "accidents" or "misfires" or "friendly fire".  Trump is a racist turd who would have you believe otherwise. So are his supporters. They love him here in the south. You can here them talk about how much they love Trump and all the good things he is doing for our country and in the same sentence here about how they can not wait for all the sand niggers and wetbacks to be deported. And then they say that they hope Trump will get rid of all the black nigger thugs too. I heard this conversation at a Waffle House across from Atlanta Motor Speedway. I think it is the racist who should be deported, and I bet this country WOULD be great again.(This country has never been great. Its a lie. Our government and a lot of its people are responsible for many heinous actions in its 200+ years of exsistance. Shit on par with the Nazi's and Stalins Russia. If you really think those wars weren't about oil and money, you are a fool. If you need proof, just check out Bush and Cheney's net worth before and after those wars. And don't forget Halliburton.)


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## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> Saw this thread in the corner of my eye during sociology, thought I might share a study we're looking at that's kind of relevant.
> 
> Wood (2010) performed a study in which two versions of the same application form were created. They were all identical except for the name. One version has a 'white' name, the other had an 'ethnic minority' name, The study found that 1/16 'minority' applications were invited to interview, compared to 1/9 'white' applications.


Didn't read anything other than this post, so don't know if it's been mentioned, but it's called implicit bias and everybody got it. Look up IAT studies.


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## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Son, don't talk for me. I served. I served a corrupt government. Doing terrible things to other countries. Everybody talks about how few of us servicemen and women were killed in these two conflicts. Wars that should not even have happened. But nobody talks about tbe millions of innocent civilians who died from OUR fire. Believe me when I say that we killed 10 times as many civilians as we did Taliban or Rebels. But of course those were "accidents" or "misfires" or "friendly fire".  Trump is a racist turd who would have you believe otherwise. So are his supporters. They love him here in the south. You can here them talk about how much they love Trump and all the good things he is doing for our country and in the same sentence here about how they can not wait for all the sand niggers and wetbacks to be deported. And then they say that they hope Trump will get rid of all the black nigger thugs too. I heard this conversation at a Waffle House across from Atlanta Motor Speedway. I think it is the racist who should be deported, and I bet this country WOULD be great again.(This country has never been great. Its a lie. Our government and a lot of its people are responsible for many heinous actions in its 200+ years of exsistance. Shit on par with the Nazi's and Stalins Russia. If you really think those wars weren't about oil and money, you are a fool. If you need proof, just check out Bush and Cheney's net worth before and after those wars. And don't forget Halliburton.)


And just so you know, i used those racist words as a quote. I cant fucking stand racist, and would have beat that fuckers face in, but I like being not in jail.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Son, don't talk for me. I served. I served a corrupt government. Doing terrible things to other countries. Everybody talks about how few of us servicemen and women were killed in these two conflicts. Wars that should not even have happened. But nobody talks about tbe millions of innocent civilians who died from OUR fire. Believe me when I say that we killed 10 times as many civilians as we did Taliban or Rebels. But of course those were "accidents" or "misfires" or "friendly fire".  Trump is a racist turd who would have you believe otherwise. So are his supporters. They love him here in the south. You can here them talk about how much they love Trump and all the good things he is doing for our country and in the same sentence here about how they can not wait for all the sand niggers and wetbacks to be deported. And then they say that they hope Trump will get rid of all the black nigger thugs too. I heard this conversation at a Waffle House across from Atlanta Motor Speedway. I think it is the racist who should be deported, and I bet this country WOULD be great again.(This country has never been great. Its a lie. Our government and a lot of its people are responsible for many heinous actions in its 200+ years of exsistance. Shit on par with the Nazi's and Stalins Russia. If you really think those wars weren't about oil and money, you are a fool. If you need proof, just check out Bush and Cheney's net worth before and after those wars. And don't forget Halliburton.)



Yeah. So much this. War is very profitable - to those in power.


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> Didn't read anything other than this post, so don't know if it's been mentioned, but it's called implicit bias and everybody got it. Look up IAT studies.



I will have to, might relate to course, get some extra marks for it. Thanks.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

I'm racist
I don't like Chinese and Koreans :V


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> I will have to, might relate to course, get some extra marks for it. Thanks.


Don’t forget to cite your sources in this forum :V 
/s


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Don’t forget to cite your sources in this forum :V
> /s



This is actually preferred if you are able, especially if posting a controversial or not well known data point.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> This is actually preferred if you are able, especially if posting a controversial or not well known data point.


Yes but using an online group of furries wasn’t exactly what I had in mind lol

I mean obv I thought about it but like

*shrug*


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Don’t forget to cite your sources in this forum :V
> /s



I got it from class, from our power point, I believe it's discussed in the AQA: AS Sociology Textbook, but a Google search should reveal stuff on the study. I'm aware it's not the first study of its type.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Yes but using an online group of furries wasn’t exactly what I had in mind lol
> 
> I mean obv I thought about it but like
> 
> *shrug*



Using how? Can you be more specific?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Using how? Can you be more specific?


As a source to cite lol I can just imagine the resource page with a link to this thread


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Racism is about as dumb and illogical as Donald Trump. No wonder 99% of his supporters are racist rednecks.



This is a little bit of a general statement, and very much a tainted assumption? My family supports trump, and they are highly intelligent people. Holding jobs as teachers to nuclear engineers. Doesn’t exactly fit the “racist redneck” stereotype now does it?

Also, this post is fairly ironic. Seeing as this thread calls out racism (being biased towards a race based solely on them being that race), and you’re over here saying all trump supporters are racist red necks. Sounds like you yourself are a bit bigoted and guilty of generalizing here. Maybe just me


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Son, don't talk for me. I served. I served a corrupt government. Doing terrible things to other countries. Everybody talks about how few of us servicemen and women were killed in these two conflicts. Wars that should not even have happened. But nobody talks about tbe millions of innocent civilians who died from OUR fire. Believe me when I say that we killed 10 times as many civilians as we did Taliban or Rebels. But of course those were "accidents" or "misfires" or "friendly fire".  Trump is a racist turd who would have you believe otherwise. So are his supporters. They love him here in the south. You can here them talk about how much they love Trump and all the good things he is doing for our country and in the same sentence here about how they can not wait for all the sand niggers and wetbacks to be deported. And then they say that they hope Trump will get rid of all the black nigger thugs too. I heard this conversation at a Waffle House across from Atlanta Motor Speedway. I think it is the racist who should be deported, and I bet this country WOULD be great again.(This country has never been great. Its a lie. Our government and a lot of its people are responsible for many heinous actions in its 200+ years of exsistance. Shit on par with the Nazi's and Stalins Russia. If you really think those wars weren't about oil and money, you are a fool. If you need proof, just check out Bush and Cheney's net worth before and after those wars. And don't forget Halliburton.)


I agree with absolutely everything except the Stalin and Hitler comparisons (Im paraphrasing associated leader titles for the political factions they represent) as I’m more of the opinion that he’s much more like Caligula.  And a little bit of Nero too.  Batshit insane and blaming other people for his fuckups


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Also, this post is fairly ironic. Seeing as this thread calls out racism (being biased towards a race based solely on them being that race), and you’re over here saying all trump supporters are racist red necks. Sounds like you yourself are a bit bigoted and guilty of generalizing here. Maybe just me


What self respecting adult still hides behind the “lol so much for ur tolerance” copout?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> This is a little bit of a general statement, and very much a tainted assumption? My family supports trump, and they are highly intelligent people. Holding jobs as teachers to nuclear engineers. Doesn’t exactly fit the “racist redneck” stereotype now does it?
> 
> Also, this post is fairly ironic. Seeing as this thread calls out racism (being biased towards a race based solely on them being that race), and you’re over here saying all trump supporters are racist red necks. Sounds like you yourself are a bit bigoted and guilty of generalizing here. Maybe just me



No, identifying a demographic as slightly racist and bigoted is not itself bigoted. Otherwise we would not be able to call out bigoted actions and presuppositions in actuality, which is exactly the thing we should be doing. In fact, I call out a wide range of behavior, and expect others to do the same for me, ensuring we're al honest with each other and telling each other what we actually mean about things. 

Ultimately, the main reason to support Trump is for economic reasons. If someone actually supports his ethics, beliefs (what are they again? They're as fickle as a furry prostitute), or dogma, their ethics should very much be called into question. Whether or not they're intelligent and working in nuclear power is irrelevant.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> This is a little bit of a general statement, and very much a tainted assumption? My family supports trump, and they are highly intelligent people. Holding jobs as teachers to nuclear engineers. Doesn’t exactly fit the “racist redneck” stereotype now does it?
> 
> Also, this post is fairly ironic. Seeing as this thread calls out racism (being biased towards a race based solely on them being that race), and you’re over here saying all trump supporters are racist red necks. Sounds like you yourself are a bit bigoted and guilty of generalizing here. Maybe just me


To be fair, they're a lot of Trump supporters who voted for the man despite his flaws rather than because of them. Many of his supporters, particularly supporters I know personally, vote for him due economic concerns. Now admittedly, most of the Trump supporters I know aren't supporting him anymore after all nonsense that's transpired so far and this shit with the tariffs could cause another global recession. He's even making noises about getting back in the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which he never should've pulled us out of in the first place.

Also, I'd like to say to @Okami_No_Heishi and @GreenZone not all tours are not same or equal and leave it at that for now.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I agree with absolutely everything except the Stalin and Hitler comparisons (Im paraphrasing associated leader titles for the political factions they represent) as I’m more of the opinion that he’s much more like Caligula.  And a little bit of Nero too.  Batshit insane and blaming other people for his fuckups


That is giving him way too much credit. Furthermore, he doesn't have the capacity or clout organize a genocide like Hitler or Stalin. I'd compare him to the Southern demagogues that were rampant in the 20th century prior 1964. He throws out racist and hateful "red meat" comments to appease a certain segment of his base while paying off the wealthy donors he needs with "tax reform". Let's keep historical context here.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> What self respecting adult still hides behind the “lol so much for ur tolerance” copout?



Lol when was it a copout? I wasn’t even in this damn debate. I simply jumped in because I felt he made an ignorant comment. How about you actually address my points rather than attacking me? Again, attack the argument, not the person


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

The man legit wants to prioritize a space army over taking care of shit he needs to be worried about


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Lol when was it a copout? I wasn’t even in this damn debate. I simply jumped in because I felt he made an ignorant comment. How about you actually address my points rather than attacking me? Again, attack the argument, not the person


I am attacking the argument.  I’m attacking YOUR argument because it’s a flawed one.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I'm racist
> I don't like Chinese and Koreans :V


I've the beef in Japan between Chinese and Korean resident and Japanese citizens, but damn, tone it down, man.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I am attacking the argument.  I’m attacking YOUR argument because it’s a flawed one.



No, you’re not. 

You stated: “what self respecting adult hides behind...”

That’s not my argument. Unlike @BahgDaddy or @LogicNuke you didn’t address any of my points. Try again


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Fine, how about: It’s impossible to tolerate intolerance and it shouldn’t be expected.  I’m not going to allow people to openly spew bigoted views in front of me, and the only people I’ve seen doing that are his diehard idiot redneck pawns.  There are intelligent people who support some of his policies, but at least know better to not be a racist fuck in public.  And I’m really disappointed that I have to explain this.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

DOES EVERY FUCKING DISCUSSION HAVE TO GO BACK TO TRUMP!? This is why I want to leave America pronto. Racism has been an issue way, way, way before he was even born, and I'm so sick and tired of people bringing this fucking petulant man-child into every single discussion that involves real-life issues. EVERY SINGLE issue that's discussed winds up turning into an approval-disapproval poll on Trump, and I'm so fucking sick of it.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Fine, how about: It’s impossible to tolerate intolerance and it shouldn’t be expected.  I’m not going to allow people to openly spew bigoted views in front of me, and the only people I’ve seen doing that are his diehard idiot redneck pawns.  There are intelligent people who support some of his policies, but at least know better to not be a racist fuck in public.  And I’m really disappointed that I have to explain this.



That’s pretty funny, considering the fact that you’re literally defending somebody who stated all trump supporters are redneck assholes. 

Secondly, you don’t get a say on what people can and cannot say. You’re not the judge of what is and isn’t bigoted. What you perceive as “bigoted” may be completely different from what I, or anyone else does. 

Also, I’ve seen just as much idiocy on the left, as I have the right. From people saying that not being sexually attracted to trans people is homophobic, to even more more insanity. People who are pawns, are a whole new breed of idiot. 

I’m just not understanding where you got this false impression that most trump supporters are moronic, and racist.



FluffyShutterbug said:


> DOES EVERY FUCKING DISCUSSION HAVE TO GO BACK TO TRUMP!? This is why I want to leave America pronto. Racism has been an issue way, way, way before he was even born, and I'm so sick and tired of people bringing this fucking petulant man-child into every single discussion that involves real-life issues. EVERY SINGLE issue that's discussed winds up turning into an approval-disapproval poll on Trump, and I'm so fucking sick of it.



Because the left loves to constantly vilify him, and the right can’t let shit go


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> DOES EVERY FUCKING DISCUSSION HAVE TO GO BACK TO TRUMP!? This is why I want to leave America pronto. Racism has been an issue way, way, way before he was even born, and I'm so sick and tired of people bringing this fucking petulant man-child into every single discussion that involves real-life issues. EVERY SINGLE issue that's discussed winds up turning into an approval-disapproval poll on Trump, and I'm so fucking sick of it.


Hey, the man rode hate politics during the campaign and you could make cogent arguments that he aggravated racial and ethnic tensions in this country with his rhetoric and side commentary. Just listen to his announcement speech. Like it or not, he inserted himself into discussions on racism just like how he's inserted himself into discussions on sexism.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I've the beef in Japan between Chinese and Korean resident and Japanese citizens, but damn, tone it down, man.


Well well well.. it took a while :V
I said that to test my theory whether americans care about racism in general because nobody here except you cared about racism outside the US. 
This shows how americans generally only think inside their bubble :V


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> That’s pretty funny, considering the fact that you’re literally defending somebody who stated all trump supporters are redneck assholes.
> 
> Secondly, you don’t get a say on what people can and cannot say. You’re not the judge of what is and isn’t bigoted. What you perceive as “bigoted” may be completely different from what I, or anyone else does.
> 
> ...


He's a horrible person who hit the gas pedal on America's transformation into an oligarchy. He deserves to be vilified. I hate him and I hate the people who work for him. You do realize that MAGA's end-goal is to turn America back into what it was under Eisenhower? Even if it's logistically impossible to turn the clock back, that IS the "Great" America that people are thinking of.


LogicNuke said:


> Hey, the man rode hate politics during the campaign and you could make cogent arguments that he aggravated racial and ethnic tensions in this country with his rhetoric and side commentary. Just listen to his announcement speech. Like it or not, he inserted himself into discussions on racism just like how he's inserted himself into discussions on sexism.


I just feel like people use him as a shield to deflect criticism and to render any dissenting voice as illegitimate.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

In my defense Trump was brought up by someone else initially a few pages back.  

And I never said “all trump supporters are racist” but that all the racist bigots I’ve ever met are trump supporters.  Funny how that works out, huh?  But if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that bitch up and wear it.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> In my defense Trump was brought up by someone else initially a few pages back.
> 
> And I never said “all trump supporters are racist” but that all the racist bigots I’ve ever met are trump supporters.  Funny how that works out, huh?  But if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that bitch up and wear it.


It's natural, actually. Racists are conservative, and Trump is a conservative. It's a de facto alliance.
Things were this way even before the election cycle 2 years ago.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Well well well.. it took a while :V
> I said that to test my theory whether americans care about racism in general because nobody here except you cared about racism outside the US.
> This shows how americans generally only think inside their bubble :V


Fair criticism. My fellow Americans would do well to think outside of their borders, though Japan does have its isolationist element. But I believe in the immediate future, the success of the United States, Japan, and our allies is going to depend on how much engage with situation outside our own borders and how much we cooperate.

Also, injustice is injustice, wherever it happens.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> It's natural, actually. Racists are conservative, and Trump is a conservative. It's a de facto alliance


The actual fuck


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> The actual fuck


Have you ever met a liberal racist before?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> It's natural, actually. Racists are conservative, and Trump is a conservative. It's a de facto alliance.
> Things were this way even before the election cycle 2 years ago.


Of course they’ve always been around, just now too many of them have decided to grow some brass balls to come out in fervor about it.  They weren’t this proud of it before it was suddenly “in”


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Have you ever met a liberal racist before?


Actually yes, ever heard of those people who hates white male? I believe they call themselves liberals
Mhmm..


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Again 
Conservatives as a whole = not racist
Racist = are p much always conservative
Conservative who says racist shit = racist


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Actually yes, ever heard of those people who hates white male? I believe they call themselves liberals
> Mhmm..


Racism or any other form of discrimination usually involves an element of marginalization. White guys were NEVER marginalized, and at current check, they still aren't.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Racism or any other form of discrimination usually involves an element of marginalization. White guys were NEVER marginalized, and at current check, they still aren't.


That’s actually pretty much the definition of racism.  Racism only applies to systemic oppression of a race over a prolonged period of time.  White males can be harassed or discriminated against, but white people will never experience _racism._


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Racism or any other form of discrimination usually involves an element of marginalization. White guys were NEVER marginalized, and at current check, they still aren't.


oh fluffy, you'd be better off ignoring this thread.....it's full of salt and hate.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> oh fluffy, you'd be better off ignoring this thread.....it's full of salt and hate.


_Sigh. _I know that I should. But, I'm feeling vindictive today... :/


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> White guys were NEVER marginalized, and at current check, they still aren't.


You can't speak against racism if you're turning a blind eye against racist like these




(Yes, I used your precious CNN)

Beating a autist white kid isnt racist because he's white ammirite?
It must feel so good seeing white people getting hurt right because they're all racist


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> _Sigh. _I know that I should. But, I'm feeling vindictive today... :/


remember, this is a furry forums on the internet....there's not really any point in arguing at all.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> You can't speak against racism if you're turning a blind eye against racist like these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, it doesn’t fit the definition of racism.  Hate crime, yes.  Discrimination and selective violence, absolutely.  Should these scumbags be punished to the full extent of the law?  You betcha.  But again, white people have never been systemically oppressed for the color of their skin.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> You can't speak against racism if you're turning a blind eye against racist like these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice try, but no. Come talk to me again once a cop kills a guy because he's white. Did you not read what WithMyBearHands wrote? But, yeah. Suck down your FOX/Breitbart propaganda and complain about how unfair the world is to you.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> remember, this is a furry forums on the internet....there's not really any point in arguing at all.


Yeah, I should leave. I know....


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Just to clarify, examples like this are exactly WHY these discussions turn into shitstorms.  Regardless of your political affiliations, we can all agree that those fuckers can fry for what they did.  But you’re slapping a “reverse racism” sticker on it and calling it a compelling argument


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Just to clarify, examples like this are exactly WHY these discussions turn into shitstorms.  Regardless of your political affiliations, we can all agree that those fuckers can fry for what they did.  But you’re slapping a “reverse racism” sticker on it and calling it a compelling argument


This is why we can't ever debate anything here. Oppressors always claim the victim card when they're called out for their BS.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> But again, white people have never been systemically oppressed for the color of their skin.


Oh honey.   There will always be racism and there will always be bias. The sooner you accept this natural phenomenon the better


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> This is why we can't ever debate anything here. Oppressors always claim the victim card when they're called out for their BS.


The divide is even greater now than it ever was before.  I really don’t think we’re gonna make it out of all this alive.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Oh honey.   There will always be racism and there will always be bias. The sooner you accept this natural phenomenon the better


Yes, but there isn’t any against white people


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Oh honey.   There will always be racism and there will always be bias. The sooner you accept this natural phenomenon the better


You don't get it and you never will. I'm done talking to you. Ciao!


WithMyBearHands said:


> The divide is even greater now than it ever was before.  I really don’t think we’re gonna make it out of all this alive.


I'm just begging for the nuke to come at this point. Put us out of our misery!


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> remember, this is a furry forums on the internet....there's not really any point in arguing at all.


Actually, there is. Nazifurs, as hilarious and pathetic as that sounds, are a thing. Altfurry and the Furry Raiders are a thing. They've got membership in the low hundreds. A lot of my non-furry friends first became aware of the fandom because of the uproar of in the _news about Nazifurs._ So maybe a discussion or two about racism is in order. I don't think the fandom needs to be _that _much of hugbox.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I'm just begging for the nuke to come at this point. Put us out of our misery!


Fuckin same mang, I don’t even have a plan of evasion.  I’m just gonna chill on the hood of my car with a fat ass blunt and watch the sky fall around me, and pray that I’m close enough to ground zero for it to kill me quickly.  I don’t think I could survive years of radioactivite fallout lol


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Oh honey.   There will always be racism and there will always be bias. The sooner you accept this natural phenomenon the better


Too true, but racism does need to be addressed and adjusted for continuously. If we just sit back and say it's human nature, racism will shatter societies.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Yes, but there isn’t any against white people


You're looking for marginalization from a country that is mostly white.

Mam.. I urge you to think again


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> You're looking for marginalization from a country that is mostly white.
> 
> Mam.. I urge you to think again


I don’t understand what your point is here


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I don’t understand what your point is here


I'll make it very simple.
You said.. white people aren't suppressed 
Do you honestly think white people can be suppressed... In their own country?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> I'll make it very simple.
> You said.. white people aren't suppressed
> Do you honestly think white people can be suppressed... In their own country?


You answered your own question.  It’s predominantly white.  I might be proven totally wrong in the future and that may happen idk.  But as of today, it doesn’t exist.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> You answered your own question


It was a rhetorical question but nonetheless, white people can experience racism, if you americans aren't so caught up in your own bubble to see that.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

this is why I doubt humans are truly intelligent... we tend to hate each-other because of the colors or our skin, not because their really is a reason to do so. we tend to hate each-other because our sexual tracts, not really for any reason again. we love to hate each-other because some of us break social codes not laws, is their a reason to hate someone because they've got a dress on? no.
we tend to LOVE to watch the people we hate die
we tend to LOVE violence unless it hurts us in any way
we tend to ADORE absolute control over other people 
we tend to NOT care about other people unless it benefits us
we could give TWO shits less about researching our world unless we get something off it
and lastly we use the same system in which the basis of is counting how many apples you have and then how many you have left after giving someone else one to try and figure out the fundamental truths of the universe.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> It was a rhetorical question but nonetheless, white people can experience racism, if you americans aren't so caught up in your own bubble to see that.


I believe what she is saying is that while individual white Americans can experience racism like you've said, white Americans as a demographic do not suffer from the systemic racism minority groups do in the United States.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> this is why I doubt humans are truly intelligent... we tend to hate each-other because of the colors or our skin, not because their really is a reason to do so. we tend to hate each-other because our sexual tracts, not really for any reason again. we love to hate each-other because some of us break social codes not laws, is their a reason to hate someone because they've got a dress on? no.
> we tend to LOVE to watch the people we hate die
> we tend to LOVE violence unless it hurts us in any way
> we tend to ADORE absolute control over other people
> and lastly we use the same system in which the basis of is counting how many apples you have and then how many you have left after giving someone else one to try and figure out the fundamental truths of the universe.


You know how we address those tendencies?

We talk about them.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> It's natural, actually. Racists are conservative, and Trump is a conservative. It's a de facto alliance.
> Things were this way even before the election cycle 2 years ago.



What? This is so false and clearly leftist inspired propaganda, that I’m actually just sitting here wondering if this is even reality. 

No, not all racists are conservative. Not all conservatives are racist. This is some next level fallacy type shit, and clearly comes from emotionally driven rhetoric. 

You know all those liberals saying “fuck white people”? Yeah, that’s racist.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You know how we address those tendencies?
> 
> We talk about them.


your username isn't helping your point XD
here's the thing, we get mad at eachother anytime we talk about these problems and spiral off into insults and aggression.
the post above me proves it too.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You know how we address those tendencies?
> 
> We talk about them.



Yes, which is exactly the point behind threads like these.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

America has a very legitimate and very real stereotype about being a bunch of racist assholes.  It’s true no matter where I go, but I guess I just assume other countries can handle themselves more maturely so it doesn’t really occur to a lot of people here that it also happens elsewhere


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> white Americans as a demographic do not suffer from the systemic racism minority groups do in the United States.


I get that and I've stated that I don't expect that to change since the US is mostly white americans. You cannot expect white americans to be subject of systematic racism "in their own country"
The only time that will change if you managed to wipe white americans to 50% I don't see how that will change


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> What? This is so false and clearly leftist inspired propaganda, that I’m actually just sitting here wondering if this is even reality.
> 
> No, not all racists are conservative. Not all conservatives are racist. This is some next level fallacy type shit, and clearly comes from emotionally driven rhetoric.
> 
> You know all those liberals saying “fuck white people”? Yeah, that’s racist.



Because of the loose nature of the word "racist," it's hard to define. It's also not something you can poll for, because racists always claim to not be racist. In their minds they've logically justified their beliefs in racial bias. 

There may be liberal racists, but quite rankle you'll have to cherry pick hard for them. On the other hand, you will have your ready choice of conservative racists to choose from. Why? Because conservativism is a fear based ideology, and racism is fear based.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

this thread is so full of the hate that poisons human minds i'ma get back to ignoring it.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> this thread is so full of the hate that poisons human minds i'ma get back to ignoring it.


I honestly don't hate anyone here :V
I can still invite everyone here for barbeque and yiff XD


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> your username isn't helping your point XD
> here's the thing, we get mad at eachother anytime we talk about these problems and spiral off into insults and aggression.
> the post above me proves it too.


We can still be civil and if you see this happening just redirect everyone to a more constructive tangent.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> We can still be civil and if you see this happening just redirect everyone to a more constructive tangent.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> . Why? Because conservativism is a fear based ideology, and racism is fear based.



This is completely false. I’m somewhat right leaning, do you honestly believe my ideology is “fear based”? Conservatism believes in following the constitution and upholding American tradition, and principles. Nothing more. Please stop making claims fueled by emotion


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> This is completely false. I’m somewhat right leaning, do you honestly believe my ideology is “fear based”? Conservatism believes in following the constitution and upholding American tradition, and principles. Nothing more. Please stop making claims fueled by emotion


And you believe that liberals want to destroy all of that, right? :I


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> And you believe that liberals want to destroy all of that, right? :I



Nope, I believe liberals hold a different ideology than me. I also am inclined to believe, every viewpoint should be considered, and allowed to be held.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> This is completely false. I’m somewhat right leaning, do you honestly believe my ideology is “fear based”? Conservatism believes in following the constitution and upholding American tradition, and principles. Nothing more. Please stop making claims fueled by emotion



As someone who used to be a hard right leaning religious conservative, I believe my stance is based on evidence and observation. I can also quote studies that assert conservatives react more strongly (fear based reactions) to strong imagery than liberals. So no, this claim is in fact not fueled by emotion.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

The problem is that a lot of American tradition involves racism and systemic oppression.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> The problem is that a lot of American tradition involves racism and systemic oppression.


This is why I'm a liberal. I believe that a lot of things need an overhaul, or else we'll have never left the 20th century. Things should change as times go on. The "old ways" aren't always the best ways. And if you think that this viewpoint will dismantle America, bite me. I don't even want to live here anyway.


----------



## Troj (Apr 16, 2018)

Really, what bothers me the most is how too many people would rather deny the existence and impact of bigotry and bias than acknowledge parts of themselves and parts of their own society that are potentially embarrassing, unpleasant, upsetting, and/or morally grey.

So, this means, for example, that people do these outrageous mental backflips to explain why the police were "justified" in shooting a child or someone who was unarmed, or demonstrate that they would rather hang out with or listen to Holocaust deniers, ethnostatists, and race realists than meany-mean SJWs and "Cultural Marxists."


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> This is why I'm a liberal. I believe that a lot of things need an overhaul, or else we'll have never left the 20th century. Things should change as times go on. The "old ways" aren't always the best ways. And if you think that this viewpoint will dismantle America, bite me. I don't even want to live here anyway.


I don’t consider myself a liberal, but I do agree. I don’t want to go back to the “good old days” when we had separate drinking fountains.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

for the discussion on if conservative = racist and vice versa, you should check out the literature on social dominance orientation (SDO). short version: conservatives typically score high on that scale and that feeds the conservative/racist correlation, or so the current theory goes.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> This is completely false. I’m somewhat right leaning, do you honestly believe my ideology is “fear based”? Conservatism believes in following the constitution and upholding American tradition, and principles. Nothing more. Please stop making claims fueled by emotion


I think conservatism has been corrupted in the United States. It used to stand for family values, fiscal responsibility, proactive defense, and proper conduct. These are things our president does not know the value of. Over the last twenty years however, the Republican party leadership backed by corporate interests has been divisive racist and religious tactics to hold on to power they've losing because they don't work for the working class anymore. This is partly why Donald Trump carried such weight in the red states; they've been run into the ground by Republican governors and legislatures that prioritized the wealthy and corporate profits over their constituents and they felt Donald Trump would drain the swamp to shake things up. He demonized Muslims and Latinos because he heard that was what worked on Fox News. 

Donald Trump isn't taking the Republican leadership in a new direction.

He just hijacked the party's currently corrupted beliefs and is taking them to their logical conclusion.

Ultimately, the damage Trump has done to conservatism will be undone by true Republicans like Susan Collins, John McCain, Richard Burr, and Lisa Murkowski.

I also want to point out that a conservative in America is very different from a conservative anywhere else in the developed world.


----------



## Troj (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> And I never said “all trump supporters are racist” but that all the racist bigots I’ve ever met are trump supporters. Funny how that works out, huh? But if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that bitch up and wear it.



Well, and there's "racist" and there's "racist."

There are lots of people who really don't mind if others outside of their "tribe" struggle and suffer, especially if they aren't particularly keen on those people, whether consciously or unconsciously. 

Not all Trump supporters are bigots or active haters in the vein of David Duke or Richard Spencer, but I'd suggest that _most_ are people who are at least fine with selling others down the river for a Klondike bar.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Yep, I agree.  But there’s two types of evil people, people who do evil things, and people who see evil things being done and do nothing to stop them.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Yep, I agree.  But there’s two types of evil people, people who do evil things, and people who see evil things being done and do nothing to stop them.


I actually hate the latter camp way more. People who normalize and ignore the bad in the world.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I actually hate the latter camp way more. People who normalize and ignore the bad in the world.



Yes, this is why I dislike fence sitters.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Yes, this is why I dislike fence sitters.


Yeah, I believe that political neutrality is hogwash now. You're either for or against what's going on. And choosing so-called "neutrality" means that you're going along with the majority party and everything they're doing.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I actually hate the latter camp way more. People who normalize and ignore the bad in the world.


but don't you see? hate is one of roots of what's wrong with us.


----------



## Troj (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I actually hate the latter camp way more. People who normalize and ignore the bad in the world.



The banality of evil, Hannah Arendt called it.

True sadists, psychopaths, and moustache-twirlers are much fewer and further between than regular people who are willing to let their neighbors be taken away  to the gas chambers because everyone else seemed cool with it, because they didn't want to be a tall poppy, because the authorities know best, because they got a nice kickback, and/or because they were only following orders.

Such people fly under the radar because they are us, and we are them.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

those people are for the most part afraid of what'd happen if they join one side or the other....hating them just confirms their fear.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> but don't you see? hate is one of roots of what's wrong with us.


He means he dislikes them.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

fear and hate, two roots of evil of the many. (I am sounding way too much like a Jedi at this point XD )


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> those people are for the most part afraid of what'd happen if they join one side or the other....hating them just confirms their fear.


You need show disapproval of such cowardice and hate somehow, otherwise they won't admit it is wrong.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You need show disapproval of such cowardice and hate somehow, otherwise they won't admit it is wrong.


but hate only begets more hate, sure you might get them to admit they are wrong  sometimes but at what cost?


----------



## Troj (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You need show disapproval of such cowardice and hate somehow, otherwise they won't admit it is wrong.



Really, I'd say that the problem is when people allow themselves to be consumed and controlled by their hatred, spite, envy, or anger;  when they lose the ability to objectively critique and analyze their own feelings, thoughts, and beliefs; and/or when they forget that even their enemies are human beings with human drives and motivations.

At a more fundamental level, the problem is that hurt people hurt people. People have trouble confronting and owning their own failings, disappointments, and pain, so they project all of it outward, and blame others for their suffering.

Hatred is just another human emotion. We can't escape it, and it's dangerous to suppress or deny it, so we have to figure out how to best channel and control it.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> but hate only begets more hate, sure you might get them to admit they are wrong  sometimes but at what cost?


I never said fighting racist was not costly. It costs a lot. Sometimes it costs you everything. But it would be a slap in face of everyone who has paid a cost fighting racism and suffering under racism to not challenge racists and accept them as they are.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> but hate only begets more hate, sure you might get them to admit they are wrong  sometimes but at what cost?


i don't really disagree, but i think you need to be aware of how this sounds to a person who is the victim of hate.
when someone has been the victim of hate, had horrible things done to them and people like them, who live in various states of fear, it can feel justified to hate their oppressors. and if they can't hate them, then what? what would you have them do? forgive them even though their hateful ideology has not changed? tolerate their desires to cause pain? love them even though they despise you?
basically, it can feel like you're putting the responsibility on the harmed party to be "reasonable" and "kind" even when they're not afforded the same courtesy. which feels pretty shitty.
just something to think about.


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I agree with absolutely everything except the Stalin and Hitler comparisons (Im paraphrasing associated leader titles for the political factions they represent) as I’m more of the opinion that he’s much more like Caligula.  And a little bit of Nero too.  Batshit insane and blaming other people for his fuckups


The reason I mentioned those two because they were responsible for killing untold millions, just like The United States Of America.


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

I apologize to Ginza. I deleted my post I wrote because after reading it I felt I had crossed a line. I agree that not all his supporters are racist rednecks. Well, I will leave it at that. Not trying to start any drama. Enough of that around here. Sorry.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> i don't really disagree, but i think you need to be aware of how this sounds to a person who is the victim of hate.
> when someone has been the victim of hate, had horrible things done to them and people like them, who live in various states of fear, it can feel justified to hate their oppressors. and if they can't hate them, then what? what would you have them do? forgive them even though their hateful ideology has not changed? tolerate their desires to cause pain? love them even though they despise you?
> basically, it can feel like you're putting the responsibility on the harmed party to be "reasonable" and "kind" even when they're not afforded the same courtesy. which feels pretty shitty.
> just something to think about.


that is the base ideology of the women whom hate men, because women where oppressed for hundreds of years men must now suffer the same? and what happens when the men are oppressed? naturally they'll hate right back and the cycle of hate will roll right on.
no, I am asking for tolerance.


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

I would have never made it back in the pre civil rights era. I probably would have joined the Black Panthers, because nothing pleases me more than seeing a racist getting their ass beat down and handed to em. And that goes for all racist. I have zero tolerance for that crap. Racism just seems like another tool  people in power use to keep the masses fighting each other, instead of the fuckers who are the real problem. Same with religion. A tool to keep us under their control.


----------



## Okami_No_Heishi (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> that is the base ideology of the women whom hate men, because women where oppressed for hundreds of years men must now suffer the same? and what happens when the men are oppressed? naturally they'll hate right back and the cycle of hate will roll right on.
> no, I am asking for tolerance.


I hate to say it, but hate is as natural to a human as violence. We are a violent species. We got to where we are today through hate and violence. How do we change thousands of years of evolution to get rid of our natural tendencies? Believe me, I am all for it. I hate the hatred and violence I see in the world today.  And the injustice!! How is it that our government will refuse medical care for someone in need, yet we can spend billions on new and better bombs? I would much rather pay for a poor person to get medical help when tbey can't afford it instead of paying for better bombs!


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> that is the base ideology of the women whom hate men, because women where oppressed for hundreds of years men must now suffer the same? and what happens when the men are oppressed? naturally they'll hate right back and the cycle of hate will roll right on.
> no, I am asking for tolerance.


then you're going to have to define "tolerance" then, because i think you and i are thinking about it differently.
what does your version of tolerance look like such that it is not hatred of the oppressor but also does not allow the oppression to continue?
what does a tolerant victim look like to you?
how would your perfect, ideal person go about addressing the harm they experience from racism or bigotry?
these are not attacking questions, just me trying to understand. because like i said, your words _sound_ like making this the victim's responsibility to be "good" instead of holding the oppressor accountable for their actions. 
we don't necessarily need oppressors to "suffer the same", but letting them know that their behavior is not okay, having repercussions for the harm they do, doesn't seem like such a scandalous thing to want. and i personally would not call that "tolerance".


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> then you're going to have to define "tolerance" then, because i think you and i are thinking about it differently.
> what does your version of tolerance look like such that it is not hatred of the oppressor but also does not allow the oppression to continue?
> what does a tolerant victim look like to you?
> how would your perfect, ideal person go about addressing the harm they experience from racism or bigotry?
> ...


a tolerant victim in a perfect world would be a person whom doesn't allow for the oppression continue but does not seek to oppress the oppressor or harm them as revenge. 
now, I'd like to know where you got " your words _sound_ like making this the victim's responsibility to be "good" instead of holding the oppressor accountable for their actions."


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Welcome to 'Murica everyone. As long as women, gays and blacks have it worse than trailer-trash white guys, then everything's hunky dory.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Yeah. So much this. War is very profitable - to those in power.



It's not like the people in power are like, y'know... in charge of the economy or country or anything.

It's not like increased profits and resources benefit a country or anything 

Shit, not like increased resources could be utilize to increase overall wellbeing in a country, y'know, like Capitalism has evidently done to the lower classes of society far more than any collectivist society could imagine.

I'm not saying war profiteering doesn't benefit people who deserve it but it's like people freak out because we wage some wars over resources, like that's something new.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> It's not like the people in power are like, y'know... in charge of the economy or country or anything.
> 
> It's not like increased profits and resources benefit a country or anything
> 
> ...



Are you saying waging war and killing people over resources is fine? Because it's pretty obviously not.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Are you saying waging war and killing people over resources is fine? Because it's pretty obviously not.



Except humans have been doing it since civilization began and for much stupider reasons?

Except that the potential losses of ignoring potential resources could be far more damaging to the country?  You do realize that the world wages economic warfare on the daily, which if lost could lead to the lives of millions left in impoverished or defenseless conditions.  It's a big deal with someone simply withholds vital resources.

Again, I'm not saying it's not corrupt but don't pretend that we can just ignore when someone is going to withhold resources from another country and we can pretend like it's no big deal, as though the lives of many within the affected country aren't harmed.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Except humans have been doing it since civilization began and for much stupider reasons?
> 
> Except that the potential losses of ignoring potential resources could be far more damaging to the country?  You do realize that the world wages economic warfare on the daily, which if lost could lead to the lives of millions left in impoverished or defenseless conditions.  It's a big deal with someone simply withholds vital resources.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying it's not corrupt but don't pretend that we can just ignore when someone is going to withhold resources from another country and we can pretend like it's no big deal, as though the lives of many within the affected country aren't harmed.



No one is saying ignore it. Just because we've waged wars in the past for those reasons doesn't mean we should keep doing it. Frequently when we wage war over resources they wind up damaged anyway. So saying we wage war to control resources is stupid - it's almost ALWAYS about power and greed. And we're getting to the point where we can't afford war at all because the stakes are so high these days. Maybe if people focused on solving the causes in human suffering, instead of contributing to it, we'd make some progress.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> No one is saying ignore it. Just because we've waged wars in the past for those reasons doesn't mean we should keep doing it. Frequently when we wage war over resources they wind up damaged anyway. So saying we wage war to control resources is stupid - it's almost ALWAYS about power and greed. And we're getting to the point where we can't afford war at all because the stakes are so high these days. Maybe if people focused on solving the causes in human suffering, instead of contributing to it, we'd make some progress.



Simply reducing it to greed is too easy.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> a tolerant victim in a perfect world would be a person whom doesn't allow for the oppression continue but does not seek to oppress the oppressor or harm them as revenge.
> now, I'd like to know where you got " your words _sound_ like making this the victim's responsibility to be "good" instead of holding the oppressor accountable for their actions."


that doesn't answer my question, at least not as i intended it. how does one not allow for oppression to continue while not coming off as harmful to the oppressor or revenge seeking? because so often any attempt at addressing oppression gets shoved down as "hate". even something as simple as saying "x group is pretty racist" can elicit cries of reverse-racism or bigotry. so to you, what does a tolerant victim look like? how do they combat oppression while still being tolerant? what do they say and do that meet this criteria?

and believe me, i realize that that is not necessarily what you were trying to say, but your words echo a rhetoric that does say those things and i think it's important that we remain cognizant of how we sound when trying to make what we think are helpful points. very often the "don't fight hate with hate" argument is used to silence the oppressed, policing their tone and how they should feel towards their attackers. there can be an underlying sentiment of "if only you were a 'good' victim they'd stop victimizing you", though i don't think that was in your particular words. but saying that victims need to be tolerant, especially without offering any criticisms of the oppressing party or suggestions on how to combat them "tolerantly", can sound like the onus is on the victim to be responsible, tolerant, kind, and "a good victim" even though they are not afforded the same courtesy by the oppressor. it's up to the victim to be the bigger person even when they're actively being harmed and sometimes killed. "tolerance" has a connotation of letting things be, staying in one's lane, of allowing the tolerated thing to exist; which is certainly not good for the oppressed party.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> that doesn't answer my question, at least not as i intended it. how does one not allow for oppression to continue while not coming off as harmful to the oppressor or revenge seeking? because so often any attempt at addressing oppression gets shoved down as "hate". even something as simple as saying "x group is pretty racist" can elicit cries of reverse-racism or bigotry. so to you, what does a tolerant victim look like? how do they combat oppression while still being tolerant? what do they say and do that meet this criteria?
> 
> and believe me, i realize that that is not necessarily what you were trying to say, but your words echo a rhetoric that does say those things and i think it's important that we remain cognizant of how we sound when trying to make what we think are helpful points. very often the "don't fight hate with hate" argument is used to silence the oppressed, policing their tone and how they should feel towards their attackers. there can be an underlying sentiment of "if only you were a 'good' victim they'd stop victimizing you", though i don't think that was in your particular words. but saying that victims need to be tolerant, especially without offering any criticisms of the oppressing party or suggestions on how to combat them "tolerantly", can sound like the onus is on the victim to be responsible, tolerant, kind, and "a good victim" even though they are not afforded the same courtesy by the oppressor. it's up to the victim to be the bigger person even when they're actively being harmed and sometimes killed. "tolerance" has a connotation of letting things be, staying in one's lane, of allowing the tolerated thing to exist; which is certainly not good for the oppressed party.









You are able to define anything as oppression as long as a distributions of resources or human endeavor exists.  That's why people who claim to defend against oppression are dangerous.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You are able to define anything as oppression as long as a distributions of resources or human endeavor exists.  That's why people who claim to defend against oppression are dangerous.


your image did not work for me. i assume it was something witty and scathing. 
so... we should burn it all down and start fresh without the horrible structures we've placed on ourselves and society that allow us to so easily harm and oppress one another? sounds good to me ^.^


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> your image did not work for me. i assume it was something witty and scathing.
> so... we should burn it all down and start fresh without the horrible structures we've placed on ourselves and society that allow us to so easily harm and oppress one another? sounds good to me ^.^



You mean tear down the structures that have literally raised the overall standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights that no collectivist nation could imagine?

Sure let's just tear it all down.  See this is why people like you are dangerous.


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You mean tear down the structures that have literally raised the overall standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights that no collectivist nation could imagine?
> 
> Sure let's just tear it all down.  See this is why people like you are dangerous.



Raised the overall standards? Tell that to the communities of poor folks who can't afford basic amenities in the heart of your own goddamn country.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> Raised the overall standards? Tell that to the communities of poor folks who can't afford basic amenities in the heart of your own goddamn country.



How about you tell that to the people who lived one century ago, whose poor class lived on a dollar a day _of today's money_.

I will gladly tell them that they're far better under this system which has raised their standard of living compared to other poor communities in other nations, that they're overall standards of living has improved.  Stop being so ignorant.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

Hey folks - an easy way to spot bigots: anyone driving a jacked up truck is almost always a racist white guy. 



ResolutionBlaze said:


> You mean tear down the structures that have literally raised the overall standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights that no collectivist nation could imagine?
> 
> Sure let's just tear it all down.  See this is why people like you are dangerous.



Umm excuse me but we literally have vast swaths of places in the country where people live in EXTREME poverty - you know, third world country style. In our own collective backyard. You don't happen to be concerned about that, do you?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> How about you tell that to the people who lived one century ago, whose poor class lived on a dollar a day _of today's money_.
> 
> I will gladly tell them that they're far better under this system which has raised their standard of living compared to other poor communities in other nations, that they're overall standards of living has improved.  Stop being so ignorant.



Oh my god, seriously? The Brit knows more about our country than this. 

www.npr.org: The U.N. Looks At Extreme Poverty In The U.S., From Alabama To California


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You mean tear down the structures that have literally raised the overall standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights that no collectivist nation could imagine?
> 
> Sure let's just tear it all down.  See this is why people like you are dangerous.


i'm also not very powerful and my depression makes me highly unmotivated, so i'm not sure you have anything to worry about as far as i personally am concerned. ^.^

see, the way i see it, everybody thinks that capitalism is THE BEST(™) because we're not creative enough to think of anything else. like, sure, capitalism is the best we have _right now_, and it might be better than the previous attempts at a "collectivist" society (though i don't like that word choice cause there are so many decently doing countries that are collectivist in nature but not communist/socialist which i think is what you were going for) but we could definitely do better. it's just hard to think about such a thing since capitalism is so pervasive in literally every facet of our [american] lives we have no idea what a world completely void of it would look like. it's so incredibly hard to imagine something different that we just... don't. we fall back on easy schemas of communist russia or medieval vassal states or jim crow south or what not instead of really tackling what's wrong with our current system and how we could use "collectivism" to better ourselves. cause even though we're better than what we could be, we certainly aren't doing a+ work either. so yeah, tear it down so we can imagine something new. get rid of everything so we can tackle this with fresh eyes and open hearts. 

or at the very least we'll end up in some 80's action dystopia and i'll finally have a good excuse to wear my bdsm gear outside. 

---

but this is getting off topic so to keep this post topical- racists are bad, yeah? great. let's all go home and drink in celebration of this common ground we surely all share. hooray!


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

I absolutely can't stand the anti-collectivist attitudes of the west. Humans are supposed to look out for one another! That's in our nature! We're not supposed to turn around and say "Fuck you, got mine, if I could be successful, YOU can be too. You're just not TRYING hard enough!" And I don't see how homeless people have it better than the poor of the Gilded Age.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Oh my god, seriously? The Brit knows more about our country than this.
> 
> www.npr.org: The U.N. Looks At Extreme Poverty In The U.S., From Alabama To California



Wow, extreme poverty is extreme.  You figured it out.

I guess every poor person must be extremely impoverished to be considered poor.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

You know, it's people like this that made me actually pull the trigger with deleting my account back in the winter, only to relent a few days later. Being poor STILL sucks, even if things were "better" than they were a hundred years ago.
I don't even know why I still use this cesspool of a website.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> i'm also not very powerful and my depression makes me highly unmotivated, so i'm not sure you have anything to worry about as far as i personally am concerned. ^.^
> 
> see, the way i see it, everybody thinks that capitalism is THE BEST(™) because we're not creative enough to think of anything else. like, sure, capitalism is the best we have _right now_, and it might be better than the previous attempts at a "collectivist" society (though i don't like that word choice cause there are so many decently doing countries that are collectivist in nature but not communist/socialist which i think is what you were going for) but we could definitely do better. it's just hard to think about such a thing since capitalism is so pervasive in literally every facet of our [american] lives we have no idea what a world completely void of it would look like. it's so incredibly hard to imagine something different that we just... don't. we fall back on easy schemas of communist russia or medieval vassal states or jim crow south or what not instead of really tackling what's wrong with our current system and how we could use "collectivism" to better ourselves. cause even though we're better than what we could be, we certainly aren't doing a+ work either. so yeah, tear it down so we can imagine something new. get rid of everything so we can tackle this with fresh eyes and open hearts.
> 
> ...



Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.  And government is far more complicated than (to quote you) a "highly unmotivated" person to completely comprehend on their own.  I never said it was perfect but the fact that you think a utopia is as easy as tearing everything down and just "being creative" says more about you than it does about me.

The chances of you making a complex system* worse* is far more likely than making a complicated system better.  Especially if you're unqualified to even go about changing it.

Your bleeding heart will likely lead to the impoverishment or even the deaths of millions if taken any serious consideration.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.  And government is far more complicated than (to quote you) a "highly unmotivated" person to completely comprehend on their own.
> 
> The chances of you making a complex system* worse* is far more likely than making a complicated system better.  Especially if you're unqualified to even go about changing it.
> 
> Your bleeding heart will likely lead to the impoverishment or even the deaths of millions if taken any serious consideration.


Tell that to people desperately looking for a job in an area that just isn't hiring.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> You know, it's people like this that made me actually pull the trigger with deleting my account back in the winter, only to relent a few days later. Being poor STILL sucks, even if things were "better" than they were a hundred years ago.
> I don't even know why I still use this cesspool of a website.



Tell that to the tribes of homosapians who tear each other apart on the daily from differing tribes.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Tell that to people desperately looking for a job in an area that just isn't hiring.



Okay:

Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Wow, extreme poverty is extreme.  You figured it out.
> 
> I guess every poor person must be extremely impoverished to be considered poor.



What the fuck is this even supposed to mean?


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.  And government is far more complicated than (to quote you) a "highly unmotivated" person to completely comprehend on their own.  I never said it was perfect but the fact that you think a utopia is as easy as tearing everything down and just "being creative" says more about you than it does about me.
> 
> The chances of you making a complex system* worse* is far more likely than making a complicated system better.  Especially if you're unqualified to even go about changing it.
> 
> Your bleeding heart will likely lead to the impoverishment or even the deaths of millions if taken any serious consideration.



You wanna see a complex system? Come over here and we'll show you what complex is. We didn't nick our government from that of a fallen empire, famous for collapsing due to economic and political pressure.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> Tell that to the tribes of homosapians who tear each other apart on the daily from differing tribes.



What are you talking about? The genocides in Africa, that generally happen as a result of western powers turned up and cut the place to ribbons to make a profit?


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> What the fuck is this even supposed to mean?



It means you're oversimplifying poverty.

The amount of extremely impoverished were far greater in the past than it is now.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Okay:
> 
> Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.


Then why doesn’t capitalism help poor people?


ResolutionBlaze said:


> It means you're oversimplifying poverty.
> 
> The amount of extremely impoverished were far greater in the past than it is now.


Doesn’t mean they don’t still exist, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying to do something about it.  Capitalism is a fucked up and greedy system.  I have no problem trying to incentivize people to shoot for the stars and be the best they can be, but regardless it doesn’t mean anyone should starve to death.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Okay:
> 
> Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.



God help you if you believe that billionaires care about you beyond the money that you spend.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> You wanna see a complex system? Come over here and we'll show you what complex is. We didn't nick our government from that of a fallen empire, famous for collapsing due to economic and political pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? The genocides in Africa, that generally happen as a result of western powers turned up and cut the place to ribbons to make a profit?



Fucking apes.  APES.  Not humans.

But y'know, the genocides too.  But what do I know, it's always the result of western powers.  And it completely justifies the murder of innocent people.  Fuck the west, amirite?


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Then why doesn’t capitalism help poor people?








"Why doesn't science cure cancer?  Why doesn't science just stop people from aging?  Science must be evil."


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> God help you if you believe that billionaires care about you beyond the money that you spend.



I didn't actually say anything about billionaires.

Nice Strawman though.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Capitalism IS the best system we have so far.  And government is far more complicated than (to quote you) a "highly unmotivated" person to completely comprehend on their own.  I never said it was perfect but the fact that you think a utopia is as easy as tearing everything down and just "being creative" says more about you than it does about me.
> 
> The chances of you making a complex system* worse* is far more likely than making a complicated system better.  Especially if you're unqualified to even go about changing it.
> 
> Your bleeding heart will likely lead to the impoverishment or even the deaths of millions if taken any serious consideration.


so don't try to fix something that is clearly broken cause it's the least broken out of all the broken shit we have. 
gotcha.


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Fucking apes.  APES.  Not humans.
> 
> But y'know, the genocides too.  But what do I know, it's always the result of western powers.  And it completely justifies the murder of innocent people.  Fuck the west, amirite?



Homosapians - They're modern humans. They're us. You specified homosapians, you're aware?

When did I say it justified it, and yes, fuck the west, fuck it's history of turning-up places and causing chaos for over a thousand years.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> so don't try to fix something that is clearly broken cause it's the least broken out of all the broken shit we have.
> gotcha.



Now you get it.  Finally.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I didn't actually say anything about billionaires.
> 
> Nice Strawman though.


Excuse me?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> It means you're oversimplifying poverty.
> 
> The amount of extremely impoverished were far greater in the past than it is now.



Actually we have a far larger population now, so the actual number is in fact appallingly large. As far as the percent goes, yes, we are probably improving - but not in this country. It's getting worse. I repeat, since you seem to be having some trouble right now: Poverty is getting worse in this country, and many live in EXTREME poverty, defined as LESS THAN $2 / day. So, again. What policies are you supporting to help fix that?


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> Homosapians - They're modern humans. They're us. You specified homosapians, you're aware?
> 
> When did I say it justified it, and yes, fuck the west, fuck it's history of turning-up places and causing chaos for over a thousand years.



You blamed genocide on external forces instead of people being, y'know, horrible racist people.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I didn't actually say anything about billionaires.
> 
> Nice Strawman though.


Not a straw man.  That’s why we can’t have nice things.  “Trickle down” theories are utterly fucked and they don’t work.  They will never work.  As long as those fat cats sit at the top with their paws full of dough, they don’t want anything to change and they’ll keep taking and taking as if this world and this life will be the only thing that matters, as if they won’t someday be decaying in the ground and it’ll all be for naught.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Not a straw man.  That’s why we can’t have nice things.  “Trickle down” theories are utterly fucked and they don’t work.  They will never work.  As long as those fat cats sit at the top with their paws full of dough, they don’t want anything to change and they’ll keep taking and taking as if this world and this life will be the only thing that matters, as if they won’t someday be decaying in the ground and it’ll all be for naught.



What the fuck are you going on about?

Again, I didn't say anything about billionaires.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Now you get it.  Finally.


You do realize he was being sarcastic. But, you know, why don't you just move to Russia. People there love "keeping their heads down". Demanding that we don't hold our homeland to a higher standard is anything but patriotic.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Now you get it.  Finally.


What the fuck lol


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You blamed genocide on external forces instead of people being, y'know, horrible racist people.



People are horrible, and outside forces can push people to justify their horrible actions, and even drive other people to helping them.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> What the fuck are you going on about?
> 
> Again, I didn't say anything about billionaires.


They're the ones who control everything. You do realize that. Or do you still buy into the falsehood of trickle-down economics and no-longer-existant "American Dream"?


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Excuse me?



A strawman argument is when you create an argument or topic that didn't exist in the original discussion, just to argue with it in order to make yourself look like the superior.

A common tactic in politics.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Now you get it.  Finally.


ohmygod i was being snarky and you just were like 'yep. that's it. that's my argument'. i'm not sure how to react to this. 

i, uh, guess this convo is done.

good luck with that, and, uh, may you reevaluate things in the future.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

Y’all need to get off your damn high horse. Seriously. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions.

Can we stop with the smug remarks, and extremely emotional keyboard slamming?

And we wonder why threads get shut down.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> A strawman argument is when you create an argument or topic that didn't exist in the original discussion, just to argue with it in order to make yourself look like the superior.
> 
> A common tactic in politics.


But it’s not what this is.  You can’t talk about the glories of capitalism without also propping up billionaires.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Y’all need to get off your damn high horse. Seriously. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions.
> 
> Can we stop with the smug remarks, and extremely emotional keyboard slamming?
> 
> And we wonder why threads get shut down.


PLEASE fucking nuke this thread.  I’ve been wondering what’s taking so fucking long


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

I know what a strawman is. I just resent being called one because I don't trivialize the suffering of working-class and poor Americans even though their living standards are "better" than they were 100 years ago and that I think that capitalism has largely failed because of events of the last 30 years.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> You do realize he was being sarcastic. But, you know, why don't you just move to Russia. People there love "keeping their heads down". Demanding that we don't hold our homeland to a higher standard is anything but patriotic.



That's the whole point.

In his sarcasm, he said something correct.

*The chances of you making a governmental system worse is far greater than you making a system better, especially by means of tearing it from the ground up*


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> PLEASE fucking nuke this thread.  I’ve been wondering what’s taking so fucking long



Oh lol it will be. We just have one moderator who is evidently, never online


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> PLEASE fucking nuke this thread.  I’ve been wondering what’s taking so fucking long


Good luck with that.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> I know what a strawman is. I just resent being called one because I don't trivialize the suffering of working-class and poor Americans even though their living standards are "better" than they were 100 years ago and that I think that capitalism has largely failed because of events of the last 30 years.



30 years in the lifespan of human history is literally... nothing.

Even so there are many things you can do within the confines of Capitalism that can improve and allow working class members to be raised to a more equally competitive level.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> That's the whole point.
> 
> In his sarcasm, he said something correct.
> 
> *The chances of you making a governmental system worse is far greater than you making a system better, especially by means of tearing it from the ground up*


Because striving for greatness is a fallacy. Let's just resign ourselves to mediocracy and not ever fucking try to leave the world a better place. I get it. I shouldn't think of ideas beyond my station.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> They're the ones who control everything. You do realize that. Or do you still buy into the falsehood of trickle-down economics and no-longer-existant "American Dream"?



Someone who controls the government.  Shocking!

You realize that a 1% has existed in EVERY society, right?  Even in collectivist ones?


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> 30 years in the lifespan of human history is literally... nothing.
> 
> Even so there are many things you can do within the confines of Capitalism that can improve and allow working class members to be raised to a more equally competitive level.


That won't happen with all of the people we have running the show today.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Because striving for greatness is a fallacy. Let's just resign ourselves to mediocracy and not ever fucking try to leave the world a better place. I get it. I shouldn't think of ideas beyond my station.



You're killing it with these Strawmans, dude, keep it up!

I never actually said we shouldn't try, I simply said the chances of making a complicated system worse is far greater than it getting better.

I never said never try to alter or adjust it.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Someone who controls the government.  Shocking!
> 
> You realize that a 1% has existed in EVERY society, right?  Even in collectivist ones?


Stop reading Ayn Rand for fuck's sake!


----------



## Ginza (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Good luck with that.



Yeah it will be. This thread was made to discuss racism. It’s now devolved (though to nobody’s surprise at all) into an argument over trump and capitalism


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> That won't happen with all of the people we have running the show today.



Then help vote someone in who will.  Or start a lineage of politicians yourself so you can invoke change starting at a local level.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You're killing it with these Strawmans, dude, keep it up!
> 
> I never actually said we shouldn't try, I simply said the chances of making a complicated system worse is far greater than it getting better.
> 
> I never said never try to alter or adjust it.


But, you're still saying that altering and adjusting is a bad idea.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Then help vote someone in who will.  Or start a lineage of politicians yourself so you can invoke change starting at a local level.


And then what happens when a Koch-backed super PAC ends up steamrolling the grassroots politicans?


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Stop reading Ayn Rand for fuck's sake!



Wew, stop stating facts!

I never actually read Atlas Shrugged btw.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> PLEASE fucking nuke this thread.  I’ve been wondering what’s taking so fucking long



Perhaps if you disengaged and avoided using emotional rhetoric it would last longer. That goes for several of you.



Ginza said:


> Y’all need to get off your damn high horse. Seriously. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions.
> 
> Can we stop with the smug remarks, and extremely emotional keyboard slamming?
> 
> And we wonder why threads get shut down.



Why are people entitled to their opinions? I think people are entitled to well formulated, rational, and researched opinions.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> And then what happens when a Koch-backed super PAC ends up steamrolling the grassroots politicans?



I don't know.  But considering you haven't actually done this, I expect you wouldn't know either except by word of mouth.

But y'know, who cares about trying, right?  You only strawmanned me about it a few posts ago.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Wew, stop stating facts!
> 
> I never actually read Atlas Shrugged btw.


Welp, I give up. I'm not gonna argue with a drone who believes that selfishness is a virtue. Have fun with your life as a commodity to the rich!


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> You do realize he was being sarcastic. But, you know, why don't you just move to Russia. People there love "keeping their heads down". Demanding that we don't hold our homeland to a higher standard is anything but patriotic.





ResolutionBlaze said:


> That's the whole point.
> 
> In his sarcasm, he said something correct.
> 
> *The chances of you making a governmental system worse is far greater than you making a system better, especially by means of tearing it from the ground up*


*she 
*her
(i'm a lady ^.^)

but anyway..
*The chances of you still living in a shitty society is far greater if you do absolutely nothing to better that society, whether it's changing legislation or burning the whole thing to the ground. While I may be one person with only so much knowledge and ability, if we all come together we can do better. Stagnation and compliance do nothing except keep the powerful in place and the oppressive systems going.*


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Why are people entitled to their opinions? I think people are entitled to well formulated, rational, and researched opinions.



You also don't mind regulated speech so this doesn't come to a surprise to anyone.


----------



## Sergei Sóhomo (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> Homosapians - They're modern humans. They're us. You specified homosapians, you're aware?
> 
> When did I say it justified it, and yes, fuck the west, fuck it's history of turning-up places and causing chaos for over a thousand years.


But like without the west we wouldn't have all this awesome stuff


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> *she
> *her
> (i'm a lady ^.^)
> 
> ...



You're seeking to tear down the entire system while all you need is policies to help elevate the poor class of the country.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> Welp, I give up. I'm not gonna argue with a drone who believes that selfishness is a virtue. Have fun with your life as a commodity to the rich!



Seriously though, it's called a Pareto Distribution, which is practically a natural law.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You're seeking to tear down the entire system while all you need is policies to help elevate the poor class of the country.


i'm just real extra like that. ^.^


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You're seeking to tear down the entire system while all you need is policies to help elevate the poor class of the country.


And what are these policies you suggest?  I can tell you that if it doesn’t make the wealthy more money, they’ll laugh it right out of the courts.


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

Sergei Sóhomo said:


> But like without the west we wouldn't have all this awesome stuff



True, it's a two-sided coin, however there is plenty of evidence to suggest we did more damage than good. Europe specifically developed faster because it was so cramped and fucked-up. Empires existed outside of Europe though. I assume the Americans are familiar with the first nations the central/south American empires? Well, in Africa you had the Malian Empire, which prospered from the salt trade between South-West African and Morocco. Indian states benefited from the silk road, as did the Middle East, see the Ottoman Empire. China also made things that the Silk Road and the Mongols brought West. In fact it generally wasn't until colonialism that Europe started creating stuff we know.

Eh, it's much deeper topic that would have to be discussed in a more appropriate thread.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> i'm just real extra like that. ^.^



You play it off as being playful despite suggesting the demise of western civilization as we know it because it doesn't help enough poor people efficiently (despite no significant society being able to resolve that problem effectively)


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You play it off as being playful despite suggesting the demise of western civilization as we know it because it doesn't help enough poor people efficiently (despite no significant society being able to resolve that problem effectively)


I can't think of a single other form of government that permanently fixed poverty.

Communism? No

Socialism? No

Totalitarianism? No


Capitalism isn't perfect, but its pretty good compared to others.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You play it off as being playful despite suggesting the demise of western civilization as we know it because it doesn't help enough poor people efficiently (despite no significant society being able to resolve that problem effectively)


look. i know that no matter what i say, you're not going to be on board, so instead of beating my head against a wall for however long this goes on, i'm going to have fun and be playful. 

and again, just because it hasn't been done YET doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive for it. and in my opinion, that problem will never be fixed under capitalism. and we won't ever get rid of capitalism unless we completely break everything down [metaphorically, though an apocalypse would do it in theory] and start fresh, since capitalism is so incredibly pervasive in our lives and culture. i don't want to destroy western civilization. just it's current societal structure. 

like, yes, capitalism isn't the literal worst, and comparatively you could even say it's okay, but it's not actually that good of a system and we can and should do better.


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 16, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I can't think of a single other form of government that permanently fixed poverty.
> 
> Communism? No
> 
> ...



That seems to be a very American-centric view, which isn't great considering America hasn't really had a go at anything but capitalism. Arguably Yugoslavia was better off under Titoism (A sort of half-communist, half-capitalist approach), the UK was much better off under the socialist system of the 70's, though prejudices at that time did put minorities at a disadvantage (What's changed, amirite?). Honestly how can America say it doesn't work if they've never at least dipped their toes into something. Doesn't have to be as extreme as communism or totalitarianism, but just something outside of your comfort zone, so to speak.


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> That seems to be a very American-centric view, which isn't great considering America hasn't really had a go at anything but capitalism. Arguably Yugoslavia was better off under Titoism (A sort of half-communist, half-capitalist approach), the UK was much better off under the socialist system of the 70's, though prejudices at that time did put minorities at a disadvantage (What's changed, amirite?). Honestly how can America say it doesn't work if they've never at least dipped their toes into something. Doesn't have to be as extreme as communism or totalitarianism, but just something outside of your comfort zone, so to speak.


That won't ever happen. Most people think that supporting anything but capitalism means your for asshole dictators like Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> That seems to be a very American-centric view, which isn't great considering America hasn't really had a go at anything but capitalism. Arguably Yugoslavia was better off under Titoism (A sort of half-communist, half-capitalist approach), the UK was much better off under the socialist system of the 70's, though prejudices at that time did put minorities at a disadvantage (What's changed, amirite?). Honestly how can America say it doesn't work if they've never at least dipped their toes into something. Doesn't have to be as extreme as communism or totalitarianism, but just something outside of your comfort zone, so to speak.


My mind isn't dead set on capitalism. There is always room for improvement. I just have yet to see any other system with such promising results that could answer all the problems we are discussing on this thread. Capitalism isn't my idea of perfect, but we shouldn't replace it with something that would make things far worse.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 16, 2018)

I'm pretty well off for someone who grew up in a capitalist society :V


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

God forbid that the status quo is fucked with too much, eh?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> That seems to be a very American-centric view, which isn't great considering America hasn't really had a go at anything but capitalism. Arguably Yugoslavia was better off under Titoism (A sort of half-communist, half-capitalist approach), the UK was much better off under the socialist system of the 70's, though prejudices at that time did put minorities at a disadvantage (What's changed, amirite?). Honestly how can America say it doesn't work if they've never at least dipped their toes into something. Doesn't have to be as extreme as communism or totalitarianism, but just something outside of your comfort zone, so to speak.


We have plenty of examples of socialism in this country, like the entire infrastructure system and emergency responders.  Amenities that are available as a resource for EVERYONE.  Nobody wants to admit that they kinda like mild socialism when they’re protesting about it in public parks, after taking their kids to public school and driving there on a public road.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> That seems to be a very American-centric view, which isn't great considering America hasn't really had a go at anything but capitalism. Arguably Yugoslavia was better off under Titoism (A sort of half-communist, half-capitalist approach), the UK was much better off under the socialist system of the 70's, though prejudices at that time did put minorities at a disadvantage (What's changed, amirite?). Honestly how can America say it doesn't work if they've never at least dipped their toes into something. Doesn't have to be as extreme as communism or totalitarianism, but just something outside of your comfort zone, so to speak.



Wow you've literally just stated my solution, paraphrased.

Social policy.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

The problem with that, however, is that many public amenities and resources are in absolute shambles.  Pure capitalism itself isn’t inherently evil, but it’s fallen into the wrong hands and I doubt it can be rectified at this point


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Wow you've literally just stated my solution, paraphrased.
> 
> Social policy.


Then why didn’t you just say that?


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> look. i know that no matter what i say, you're not going to be on board, so instead of beating my head against a wall for however long this goes on, i'm going to have fun and be playful.
> 
> and again, just because it hasn't been done YET doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive for it. and in my opinion, that problem will never be fixed under capitalism. and we won't ever get rid of capitalism unless we completely break everything down [metaphorically, though an apocalypse would do it in theory] and start fresh, since capitalism is so incredibly pervasive in our lives and culture. i don't want to destroy western civilization. just it's current societal structure.
> 
> like, yes, capitalism isn't the literal worst, and comparatively you could even say it's okay, but it's not actually that good of a system and we can and should do better.



I'm not arguing that we could perhaps do better.

The problem is this is the furthest we can go thus far until we find tangible solutions go things like Pareto Distributions, if there is a solution.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I'm not arguing that we could perhaps do better.
> 
> The problem is this is the furthest we can go thus far until we find tangible solutions go things like Pareto Distributions, if there is a solution.


That's definitely not the line of argument you had a minute ago. But whatever. You do you.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Seriously though, it's called a Pareto Distribution, which is practically a natural law.


This Jordan Peterson?

Jordan Peterson - RationalWiki

Okay


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> This Jordan Peterson?
> 
> Jordan Peterson - RationalWiki
> 
> Okay



>Uses RationalWiki as a genuine source

Okay

From one skim through and a basic understanding of Peterson's videos I know that RationalWiki is taking things he's said out of context.

I guess committing Argumentum Ad Hominem and citing a wiki that takes people almost always out of context completely disproves the existence of the Pareto Distribution.  My mistake.  I adhere to your logical prowess.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> That's definitely not the line of argument you had a minute ago. But whatever. You do you.



It doesn't matter what argument I made in the past.  I'm not contradicting myself by stating this as a reinforcing point to the fundamental one:  Capitalism is the best we have thus far.

I've repeated that, like, four times.  When I reinforce it, all the sudden I'm shifting arguments.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> >Uses RationalWiki as a genuine source
> 
> Okay
> 
> I guess committing Argumentum Ad Hominem and citing a wiki that takes people almost always out of context completely disproves the existence of the Pareto Distribution.  My mistake.  I adhere to your logical prowess.



"Originally applied to describing the distribution of wealth in a society, fitting the trend that a large portion of wealth is held by a small fraction of the population, the Pareto distribution has colloquially become known and referred to as the Pareto principle, or "80-20 rule". This rule states that, for example, 80% of the wealth of a society is held by 20% of its population. _However, the Pareto distribution only produces this result for a particular power value,  α {\displaystyle \alpha } 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





._ While  α {\displaystyle \alpha } 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is variable, empirical observation has found the 80-20 distribution to fit a wide range of cases, including natural phenomena and human activities_."
_
It isn't an actual economic theory. It is a mathematical phenomenon sometimes used in economics, often erroneously. I didn't bother disproving it because I thought you weren't actually seriously advancing it as a rule explaining wealth distribution. Economist from both major schools of thought scoffed at the video you posted when it first came out and criticized Jordan Peterson for trying to play economist. I thought you posted it as a practical joke.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

who the hell keeps on making these drama heavy treads?


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> who the hell keeps on making these drama heavy treads?


The problem lies in hijacking. Some one will inevitably mention Donald Trump, and then the whole thing turns into a 5-Alarm dumpster fire that can't be extinguished.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> who the hell keeps on making these drama heavy treads?


People clearly want to talk about this. What is wrong with that?


----------



## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> People clearly want to talk about this. What is wrong with that?


Well, nothing. But it gets mighty unpleasant.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

FluffyShutterbug said:


> The problem lies in hijacking. Some one will inevitably mention Donald Trump, and then the whole thing turns into a 5-Alarm dumpster fire that can't be extinguished.


you got one thing wrong foxo, it's a 5-alarm trumpster fire in this case~


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> "Originally applied to describing the distribution of wealth in a society, fitting the trend that a large portion of wealth is held by a small fraction of the population, the Pareto distribution has colloquially become known and referred to as the Pareto principle, or "80-20 rule". This rule states that, for example, 80% of the wealth of a society is held by 20% of its population. _However, the Pareto distribution only produces this result for a particular power value,  α {\displaystyle \alpha }
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In which case, I wonder why you preferred to leave someone in ignorance rather than actually address the argument directly, just so you come around and hound them for not knowing better.  I don't even have words for you.  I never treated you poorly up to this point, yet you thought it fitting to make a vague argument followed up by an actual one after I criticized the overall vagueness of your argument.

In any case, getting into nitty gritty in this aspect is going beyond my current comprehension.  I can't make decent enough arguments without further knowledge.  But again, your answer was still vague; you literally pasted the Wiki's introduction.  Instead how about give an example about why it isn't specifically applicable, instead of insulting people's intelligence.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> In which case, I wonder why you preferred to leave someone in ignorance rather than actually address the argument directly, just so you come around and hound them for not knowing better.  I don't even have words for you.  I never treated you poorly up to this point, yet you thought it fitting to make a vague argument followed up by an actual one after I criticized the overall vagueness of your argument.
> 
> In any case, getting into nitty gritty in this aspect is going beyond my current comprehension.  I can't make decent enough arguments without further knowledge.  But again, your answer was still vague; you literally pasted the Wiki's introduction.  Instead how about give an example about why it isn't specifically applicable.


I thought you knew! I wasn't trying to treat you poorly. 

Basically, the Pareto distribution only holds true for a specific range of power values. It is a mathematical quirk that explains wealth distribution in certain societies.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I thought you knew! I wasn't trying to treat you poorly.
> 
> Basically, the Pareto distribution only holds true for a specific range of power values. It is a mathematical quirk that explains wealth distribution in certain societies.



It's fine.  I'm already heated as it is so I should probably step away here soon.

How do you determine which societies it does or doesn't apply to?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> My mind isn't dead set on capitalism. There is always room for improvement. I just have yet to see any other system with such promising results that could answer all the problems we are discussing on this thread. Capitalism isn't my idea of perfect, but we shouldn't replace it with something that would make things far worse.



I'm a big proponent of socialist lite systems that allow capitalism is flourish but also smooth out its worst effects.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

you know your political ideology has about as many holes as a cheese grater if your actively pushing it on a furry forums~


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> you got one thing wrong foxo, it's a 5-alarm trumpster fire in this case~



You know, I - only I, because I am the best - can make a Trumpster fire this big - this big. And when - you know, when I have a Trumpster fire, it is the best and - really, the biggest fire, ask anyone, okay? Okay.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> you know your political ideology has about as many holes as a cheese grater if your actively pushing it on a furry forums~



I'm a capitalist who believes in social safety nets. It's practically the same outlook as BaghDaddy.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 16, 2018)

shapeless0ne said:


> you know your political ideology has about as many holes as a cheese grater if your actively pushing it on a furry forums~



Hmm? I'm not really trying to push anything, not really. I'll talk to anyone about these issues if they want to talk about them.


----------



## shapeless0ne (Apr 16, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> You know, I - only I, because I am the best - can make a Trumpster fire this big - this big. And when - you know, when I have a Trumpster fire, it is the best and - really, the biggest fire, ask anyone, okay? Okay.


that made my night! and no I wasn't referring to you in particular.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> It's fine.  I'm already heated as it is so I should probably step away here soon.
> 
> How do you determine which societies it does or doesn't apply to?



Respectfully, you're asking the wrong question. The Pareto distribution describes some societal phenomenon, but does not explain why it happens. Furthermore, it does not describe all societies and even societies it does describes, it fails describe certain phenomenon affecting certain communities and demographics. This paper helps explain the tools economists use to analyze income inequality. Yeah, it's long, but it will answer all your questions about Pareto distribution.  Pay particular attention to the introduction.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1612/1612.01624.pdf


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 16, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Respectfully, you're asking the wrong question. The Pareto distribution describes some societal phenomenon, but does not explain why it happens. Furthermore, it does not describe all societies and even societies it does describes, it fails describe certain phenomenon affecting certain communities and demographics. This paper helps explain the tools economists use to analyze income inequality. Yeah, it's long, but it will answer all your questions about Pareto distribution.  Pay particular attention to the introduction.
> 
> https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1612/1612.01624.pdf



I appreciate it.  I'll keep it saved.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 16, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I appreciate it.  I'll keep it saved.


You're welcome.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Apr 17, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> It always makes me sad to read stuff like this, where people are instantly jumping to conclusions about people based on skin color.
> 
> www.nytimes.com: A Black Teenager Asked for Directions. A Man Responded With Gunfire.



If you want to be taken seriously you shouldn't link to the *New York Times*.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 17, 2018)

Anon Raccoon said:


> If you want to be taken seriously you shouldn't link to the *New York Times*.


...wat? is this sarcasm?
Nyt may be a little left of center, but it's incredibly factual and considered a reputable and reliable source by like everyone. Like, even ivy league schools accept it as a scholarly source for academic papers.


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Apr 17, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> ...wat? is this sarcasm?
> Nyt may be a little left of center, but it's incredibly factual and considered a reputable and reliable source by like everyone. Like, even ivy league schools accept it as a scholarly source for academic papers.



What you are really saying is that they are considered factual and a reputable source by other extreme leftists (such as ivy league schools)


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 17, 2018)

Anon Raccoon said:


> What you are really saying is that they are considered factual and a reputable source by other extreme leftists (such as ivy league schools)


LMGTFY
like first result, guy.


----------



## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 17, 2018)

it ain't even "extreme".


----------



## Massan Otter (Apr 17, 2018)

Anon Raccoon said:


> What you are really saying is that they are considered factual and a reputable source by other extreme leftists (such as ivy league schools)



Can you find a reputable source, whether neutral, left or right leaning, which reports the facts of this story in a way that differs significantly from the NY Times story?  If not, the criticism seems irrelevant.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 17, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> it ain't even "extreme".


Bet he thinks NPR is “extreme”


----------



## Anon Raccoon (Apr 17, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> LMGTFY
> like first result, guy.



google is also left leaning guy. The NYT is almost never credible when it comes to politics


----------



## Massan Otter (Apr 17, 2018)

Again, which sources do you consider credible, how did they report this story and how do the facts of it differ from those reported by the NYT?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 17, 2018)

In my personal experience, extremist reporters on both sides like to use clickbait a lot more often than “credible” sources 

But then again everything that isn’t Fox News is being painted as fake


----------



## MetroFox2 (Apr 17, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> In my personal experience, extremist reporters on both sides like to use clickbait a lot more often than “credible” sources
> 
> But then again everything that isn’t Fox News is being painted as fake



I mean, some deserve it, I can't name a UK paper that I can take at face-value anymore. Not that I ever could, I'm not quite a concessionaire of news, usually keep an eye on headlines and wait for someone like Philly D. to talk about it, or see what information comes out surrounding it.

Edit - To clarify, what I mean is this whole fake news thing has shed light on a few less-savoury practices within some news agencies, not naming names.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

Anon Raccoon said:


> google is also left leaning guy. The NYT is almost never credible when it comes to politics


So where precisely do you get your news on current events from?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 17, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> I mean, some deserve it, I can't name a UK paper that I can take at face-value anymore. Not that I ever could, I'm not quite a concessionaire of news, usually keep an eye on headlines and wait for someone like Philly D. to talk about it, or see what information comes out surrounding it.
> 
> Edit - To clarify, what I mean is this whole fake news thing has shed light on a few less-savoury practices within some news agencies, not naming names.


No, I get it, it’s really important especially in this day and age, to know for sure where you’re getting your facts from.  People can fabricate anything, it’s more about knowing the person behind the article I think


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

Anon Raccoon said:


> google is also left leaning guy. The NYT is almost never credible when it comes to politics


The NYT is one of the most highly rated news publications in the Associated Press, as is the Wall Street Journal, which it frequently collaborates with. You saying it is not credible does not make it any less credible. 

Also, it is an American newspaper, meaning it can be sued for libel if it publishing false stories. If they were publishing false stories or lies, they'd have been sued for retractions. They're still standing.

Once again, where do you get your news?


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

MetroFox2 said:


> I mean, some deserve it, I can't name a UK paper that I can take at face-value anymore. Not that I ever could, I'm not quite a concessionaire of news, usually keep an eye on headlines and wait for someone like Philly D. to talk about it, or see what information comes out surrounding it.
> 
> Edit - To clarify, what I mean is this whole fake news thing has shed light on a few less-savoury practices within some news agencies, not naming names.


Nah. That's just Rupert Murdoch.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 17, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> The NYT is one of the most highly rated news publications in the Associated Press, as is the Wall Street Journal, which it frequently collaborates with. You saying it is not credible does not make it any less credible.
> 
> Also, it is an American newspaper, meaning it can be sued for libel if it publishing false stories. If they were publishing false stories or lies, they'd have been sued for retractions. They're still standing.
> 
> Once again, where do you get your news?



Does the same apply to half truths?


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Does the same apply to half truths?


Contrary to the current president's opinion, libel is broad legal category. It includes a wide range of misinformation and deception. Every story published by the NYT is vetted by their in-house legal counsels.  When they wrong about a specific detail, they issue a correction or even a retraction if necessary. 

Furthermore, it is the third most circulated newspaper in the United States.

www.agilitypr.com: Top 15 U.S. Newspapers by Circulation

Perhaps you could provide an example of these half-truths?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 17, 2018)

Anon Raccoon said:


> If you want to be taken seriously you shouldn't link to the *New York Times*.



This is a common non sequitur fallacy used by right wingers to attempt to discredit sources they simply disagree with.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 17, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> This is a common non sequitur fallacy used by right wingers to attempt to discredit sources they simply disagree with.


When left wingers tell right wingers that they're discrediting news sources that they don't agree with: 



 
:V


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> When left wingers tell right wingers that they're discrediting news sources that they don't agree with:
> View attachment 30577
> :V


Actually, multiple studies have found that right-leaning American publications and outlets have issued more retractions and corrections than left-leaning and centrist publications and outlets.

news.wgbh.org: A Major New Study Shows That Political Polarization Is Mainly A Right-Wing Phenomenon


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 17, 2018)

As far as I'm concerned, we should be skeptical of all news sources we come across.


----------



## Mikazuki Marazhu (Apr 17, 2018)

Wait.. the article is comparing major left news outlet to alternative media outlet like The Daily Caller, Alex Jones' Infowars, and The Gateway Pundit. 

Christ :V


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> As far as I'm concerned, we should be skeptical of all news sources we come across.


No, we shouldn't. We should be skeptical of _political commentators_ and _editorial writers_ at all media outlets because they are offering opinions and maybe some context. Fox News actually does fairly decent new reporting in the middle of the day. Why? Because it is a straight newscast with no commentary, just analysis. There are some things the network omits like the details of the Russia collusion & interference investigation, but by and large Brett Baier and Shep Smith are real newsmen, hands down. Whereas Hannity, the late O' Reilly, and Fox & Friends are billed as opinion segments legally by the network itself. It is also interesting that Fox commentators are more frequently cited for retractions and corrections than reporter brethren.



Mikazuki Marazhu said:


> Wait.. the article is comparing major left news outlet to alternative media outlet like The Daily Caller, Alex Jones' Infowars, and The Gateway Pundit.
> 
> Christ :V


Part of the reason for that is traditional conservative media outlet like Fox News and the Wall Street Journal have seen they're market share threatened by newer online conservative media outlets like the Daily Caller, Brietbart News, The Blaze, and, unfortunately, Info Wars. These newer online outlets have gained more influence and readership in the last three years.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 17, 2018)

Is this seriously still going??


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 17, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Is this seriously still going??


Why not?


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 17, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> No, we shouldn't. We should be skeptical of _political commentators_ and _editorial writers_ at all media outlets because they are offering opinions and maybe some context. Fox News actually does fairly decent new reporting in the middle of the day. Why? Because it is a straight newscast with no commentary, just analysis. There are some things the network omits like the details of the Russia collusion & interference investigation, but by and large Brett Baier and Shep Smith are real newsmen, hands down. Whereas Hannity, the late O' Reilly, and Fox & Friends are billed as opinion segments legally by the network itself. It is also interesting that Fox commentators are more frequently cited for retractions and corrections than reporter brethren.
> 
> 
> Part of the reason for that is traditional conservative media outlet like Fox News and the Wall Street Journal have seen they're market share threatened by newer online conservative media outlets like the Daily Caller, Brietbart News, The Blaze, and, unfortunately, Info Wars. These newer online outlets have gained more influence and readership in the last three years.



There really are not credible right wing news sources, objectively speaking. Studies have shown that Fox News, for instance, is prone to have viewers who have significantly less educated on major points compared to the general population. 

One reason for this is that conservativism is inherently based on tradition (ignorance) and fear of change. It rejects new information and criticism. Liberals on the other hand are more prone to relyin on secular science, facts, and data to support their articles and opinions. (Obviously there are plenty of leftist sources that lack credibility, such as Right Wing Watch.) However, I know of hands down NO leftist media source that is as focused on literal lies and as popular as Infowars.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Contrary to the current president's opinion, libel is broad legal category. It includes a wide range of misinformation and deception. Every story published by the NYT is vetted by their in-house legal counsels.  When they wrong about a specific detail, they issue a correction or even a retraction if necessary.
> 
> Furthermore, it is the third most circulated newspaper in the United States.
> 
> ...



One can say they're telling the truth, be telling the truth, and can _technically _be telling the truth... but that doesn't mean it's the full truth.  Nor does it assure that it will be fixed when it's technically true.

I think it's naïve to think they don't find loopholes or have loopholes or even unintentionally utilize loopholes.

All I know is that whenever I read an article from any news really, it tends to be a lot more complicated than people let on.

I mean, who cares how many times McDonald's claims that their food is fresh.  That's the way I see it with most things.  But maybe I'm just a pessimist.


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 18, 2018)

Okami_No_Heishi said:


> Son, don't talk for me. I served. I served a corrupt government. Doing terrible things to other countries. Everybody talks about how few of us servicemen and women were killed in these two conflicts. Wars that should not even have happened. But nobody talks about tbe millions of innocent civilians who died from OUR fire. Believe me when I say that we killed 10 times as many civilians as we did Taliban or Rebels. But of course those were "accidents" or "misfires" or "friendly fire".  Trump is a racist turd who would have you believe otherwise. So are his supporters. They love him here in the south. You can here them talk about how much they love Trump and all the good things he is doing for our country and in the same sentence here about how they can not wait for all the sand niggers and wetbacks to be deported. And then they say that they hope Trump will get rid of all the black nigger thugs too. I heard this conversation at a Waffle House across from Atlanta Motor Speedway. I think it is the racist who should be deported, and I bet this country WOULD be great again.(This country has never been great. Its a lie. Our government and a lot of its people are responsible for many heinous actions in its 200+ years of exsistance. Shit on par with the Nazi's and Stalins Russia. If you really think those wars weren't about oil and money, you are a fool. If you need proof, just check out Bush and Cheney's net worth before and after those wars. And don't forget Halliburton.)



you can believe in that BS all you want but i know for a fact you're a minority no marine i served with had that attitude at most they just said "politics is bullshit lets just focus on doing our job and getting home safe"

and yeah YOUR fire not OUR fire YOUR fire don't drag every other coalition country down with you US policy is to drop bombs first ask questions later i wont deny that but not every country is like that UK wont even fire on spotters unless they can physically see them talking on a phone and we refused to shoot one cause it was just a 8-9 year old

personally? i don't like American foreign policy since Vietnam and the US used us as bait one time the CIA going "oh shit" when a platoon was asked to patrol into a VC division so America could see where they were but the CIA fucked up in thinking we'd die and we didn't and cat was out of the bag i get it America fucks people over

but i have seen both myself and others insulted in the street being called baby killers and rapists and working for all these other conspiracy groups my best friend was beaten up by Antifa members and had his eye split open walking to work so i will not tolerate this bullshit anti military anti government fucking rhetoric


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> One can say they're telling the truth, be telling the truth, and can _technically _be telling the truth... but that doesn't mean it's the full truth.  Nor does it assure that it will be fixed when it's technically true.
> 
> I think it's naïve to think they don't find loopholes or have loopholes or even unintentionally utilize loopholes.
> 
> ...


There could be slant on any story you read, but by and large, the media is the best way to get information on current events, period. Labeling the media as totally untrustworthy or inherently biased because some slant is given to truthful stories containing the fact is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The media has protected American rights and freedom at times when the government has failed to initially. The reporting happening today will be some of the best journalism in our lifetime. You have a right to disregard well-sourced information delivered by trained professionals. Just don't cover your disregard for the facts with a distrust of the media.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> There could be slant on any story you read, but by and large, the media is the best way to get information on current events, period. Labeling the media as totally untrustworthy or inherently biased because some slant is given to truthful stories containing the fact is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The media has protected American rights and freedom at times when the government has failed to initially. The reporting happening today will be some of the best journalism in our lifetime. You have a right to disregard well-sourced information delivered by trained professionals. Just don't cover your disregard for the facts with a distrust of the media.



"Some slant" is not "truthful"

There is now way in knowing how much that small amount of slant can change the context of a story.  That's why I always inherently second guess journalism.


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## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 18, 2018)

let's ignore all journalism media and just guess at current events.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 18, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> you can believe in that BS all you want but i know for a fact you're a minority no marine i served with had that attitude at most they just said "politics is bullshit lets just focus on doing our job and getting home safe"
> 
> and yeah YOUR fire not OUR fire YOUR fire don't drag every other coalition country down with you US policy is to drop bombs first ask questions later i wont deny that but not every country is like that UK wont even fire on spotters unless they can physically see them talking on a phone and we refused to shoot one cause it was just a 8-9 year old
> 
> ...



Well, guess what? We don't have to agree with military and military actions  I've noticed military personnel tend to have highly inflated self opinions, as if being enlisted and "serving" gives their opinions more weight. It does in some instances - like being more knowledgeable on how guns work and how to kill people. What it doesn't do is give military personnel opinion more weight than civilian. I've been told by military types that "they isn't serve so x or y could happen." Well, too bad they still only have one vote. That's why military is civilian leashed - otherwise you have a rabid dog out there.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> let's ignore all journalism media and just guess at current events.



I never actually said that.

I said I always second guess journalism.  Which means, if I find time, I always cross reference it or consider other possibilities.

I've completely stopped watching televised news media.  I only rely on internet and articles of the sort and cross referencing, as well as peers who can correct me on certain facts.  It's worked fine thus far.


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## Le Chat Nécro (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I never actually said that.
> 
> I said I always second guess journalism.  Which means, if I find time, I always cross reference it or consider other possibilities.
> 
> I've completely stopped watching televised news media.  I only rely on internet and articles of the sort and cross referencing, as well as peers who can correct me on certain facts.  It's worked fine thus far.


never said you did.
It was a joke. 
Relax.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I never actually said that.
> 
> I said I always second guess journalism.  Which means, if I find time, I always cross reference it or consider other possibilities.
> 
> I've completely stopped watching televised news media.  I only rely on internet and articles of the sort and cross referencing, as well as peers who can correct me on certain facts.  It's worked fine thus far.


I wasn't going to comment on this, but hey. If you're using internet news sites linked to news networks and publications like the CNN, Fox, MSNBC, BBC, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Hill, the Washington Post, or USA Today fine, they have good sourcing and are subject to slander and libel laws as well as FTC standards. But other internet news site not affiliated with the Associated Press are more likely to contain false or biased information, particularly the ones not based in America. If you are really worried about fake news, you should what I do, watch and read conservative _and _liberal media to examine the overlap. The differences you can investigate on your own. I also want to say that watching televised news broadcasts exposes you to what is being talked about. There are far less fluff pieces on the nightly news now, most stories are about hard issues.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 18, 2018)

Ayayay....


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## lupi900 (Apr 19, 2018)

Le Chat Nécro said:


> ...wat? is this sarcasm?
> Nyt may be a little left of center, but it's incredibly factual and considered a reputable and reliable source by like everyone. Like, even ivy league schools accept it as a scholarly source for academic papers.



He only saying it because it dosen't fit his arguments


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Apr 19, 2018)

This thread has apparently been completely derailed, so I am going to close it up.  The OP is welcome to open a new thread to try to discuss things further from a fresh start.


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