# Gaming is DEAD (nearly)(L4D2, MW2)



## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Every time a new game comes out I'm just dissapointed in humanity.
Since the popularization of consoles, the quality standards of games has dramatically reduced. I'm not speaking about graphics but gameplay.
It seems that nowadays it's ALL about the money, and this is rubbing off onto the PC gaming market too.

Just years ago the PC gaming scene was great, we had creative awesome games coming out all the time, Half life mods, Soldier of Fortune, Oblivion, Hitman, Duke Nukem, Mech Warrior, Max payne, Battlefield, GTA etc. Yes, these games are still continuing, I'm normally against sequels for the sake of it, but newer games are just so bland.

An awesome niche has turned into a weak sauce which is flung over our faces by marketing teams.

*CASE STUDIES:*

*L4D2:*


 Okay, L4D was great...kind of. They didnt update glitches and things that eventually made me and many others eventually quit it, but it was a good concept and we all had fun playing it.
Then came the marketing.
 A billion noobs come flooding in, people who dont even play games normally. No, this isnt a bad thing, but the target audience was deffinitely shifting.
L4D2 was marketed to the 'public', not gamers, and they spent around $25mil doing it, money that COULD have been invested into development.
So now we have this game which is the same as L4D with new models, weapons and levels, which took about a year to make. Back in the good ol' days we would call that a mod... and it would be FREE.
But as we know, the stupid public only know of console gaming, not PC, and console gamers generally have lower expectations, like watching films, you just buy one and stick it in. (yes i know there are some good console games out there) The point is, people will dry hump anything if you advertise it in their face for long enough.
 
*Modern Warfare 2 (or COD four point two)*
Ill keep it short, THIS GAME IS THE BEST GAME EVER MADE, or so the adverts would make you think. It's pretty much just MW1 in different locations. It plays like a film, but its not a film, this is baaaad. Very linear and scripted to the max.

It's not a bad game... but it's just COD, not game of the year.
It now seems that PC games are either just ports, copypasta with massive advertising schemes or making the mistake of benchmarking themselves against console games which are blaaaaand and have capped graphics.

*Summary*
 I could go on, but I'm not even 25 and I wish it were like the old days when games had no adverts and still delivered. Now people seem to just consume what is fed to them through the power of marketing.
What happened to pushing the graphical e-penis boundries, creating awesome deep stories, listening to your customers...

Rant over, no offence!


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## Duality Jack (Nov 18, 2009)

Moder warfare 2 was worth every penny.


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## xcliber (Nov 18, 2009)

I agree on MW2, but not so much on L4D2.

I love L4D2. I personally think it has enough added stuff to warrent being a whole new game. Put simply, if the game was released as just another free mod, it wouldn't be a quarter as good as it is. There are plenty of mods and fanmade material for L4D, but non of it really compares to the quality of the original, let alone L4D2. If Valve had made L4D2 free or cheap, they woulndn't have had nearly the resources to make a quality product.

I do agree that there are a lot of shitty games out there though. Sure L4D2 isn't really as spectacular when compared to how great L4D was when it was released, but that's because the concept is old now. It's all been done before.

The only reason we're all so dissapointed in games these days, is because it's all been done before. We haven't seen many NEW concepts in a while. The Wii was a big hit because it was new. Natal won't be as big of a hit because the Wii did something similar already. The PS3's motion controller is going to bomb because it's just copying from the Wii.

So unless you, as a gamer, have some new and inovative ideas for us, gaming will never be what it was 5 or 10 or even 20 years ago again.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Super cool story bro.


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## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

*



			L4D2:
		
Click to expand...

*


> Okay, L4D was great...kind of. They didnt update glitches and things that eventually made me and many others eventually quit it, but it was a good concept and we all had fun playing it.
> Then came the marketing.
> A billion noobs come flooding in, people who dont even play games normally. No, this isnt a bad thing, but the target audience was deffinitely shifting.
> L4D2 was marketed to the 'public', not gamers, and they spent around $25mil doing it, money that COULD have been invested into development.
> ...


So, have you actually played the game?

'cause there are a few new modes in there too. New voicework, new music, new character designs, new model designs, new wepons, weapon teaxture and model reworks.

A mod is essentially what DLC is nowadays. However, almsot always they were made by the community. This is an entirely new game, a mod would have had the same characters, same models, same everything. Save a few badly made guns and maybe a few new enemies along with levels. Of course using the old shitty textures; 'cause mods are modifications, not expansions.






> *Modern Warfare 2 (or COD four point two)*
> Ill keep it short, THIS GAME IS THE BEST GAME EVER MADE, or so the adverts would make you think. It's pretty much just MW1 in different locations. It plays like a film, but its not a film, this is baaaad. Very linear and scripted to the max.
> 
> It's not a bad game... but it's just COD, not game of the year.
> It now seems that PC games are either just ports, copypasta with massive advertising schemes or making the mistake of benchmarking themselves against console games which are blaaaaand and have capped graphics.




S'why it got five out of five, right? The developers themselves have already stated they wanted the story to like an action move. Not to mention the game is primarily multiplayer.


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> A mod is essentially what DLC is nowadays. However, almsot always they were made by the community. This is an entirely new game, a mod would have had the same characters, same models, same everything. Save a few badly made guns and maybe a few new enemies along with levels. Of course using the old shitty textures; 'cause mods are modifications, not expansions.
> 
> .



DLC, a new faddy catchphrase that makes me sick, DLC to me just means, an update that you have to pay for. Thankfully theyre mainly for consoles.
Yeah, i played L4D2, I dont get what you mean... It had some new of everything, but still has textures and sounds from HL2, a few re-texured/tweaked models here and there..


By the way *ALL*, my point wasnt to linger on the case study games, just games in general. I knew I opened a massive fanboy window once I mentioned those. 

Pick any overhyped game that comes out, they're all the same.


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## xcliber (Nov 18, 2009)

inb4 Halo!

I just hope Final Fantasy XIII lives up to my expectations. If it doesn't, then I give up as a gamer and am putting more attention to furry fandom.


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## Sam (Nov 18, 2009)

Hey - Halo is still pretty good. I think if you can get a lot of kills despite all the lag problems, and glitches that occur in mid game, you're a true gamer for sticking it out.



Though I do think that ODST was definately not worth the money that I paid for it. I got a side game and a few downloads for new maps and even the variants that are made for the maps don't use _*all*_ of them for some stupid reason.


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## xcliber (Nov 18, 2009)

I just never got into Halo. I played through 1 and 2, but 3 just didn't hold the same appeal. The multiplayer was ok, but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I just brought up Halo because I think it's way overhyped.

Ok, after FFXIII, I'll hang in there till Sonic HD comes out. If it fails, then I'll have officially lost all hope in Sonic.


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## ShÃ nwÃ ng (Nov 18, 2009)

They don't make games up to my standards/like the used to rant #56009. Go back to bed Wolfokami.


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## CannonFodder (Nov 18, 2009)

xcliber said:


> inb4 Halo!
> 
> I just hope Final Fantasy XIII lives up to my expectations. If it doesn't, then I give up as a gamer and am putting more attention to furry fandom.


I don't know why but FFXIII all three games have my "shitty game" sense going off like a siren.
I'm going to just wait till I hear game reviews to buy it.


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## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> DLC, a new faddy catchphrase that makes me sick, DLC to me just means, an update that you have to pay for. Thankfully theyre mainly for consoles.
> Yeah, i played L4D2, I dont get what you mean... It had some new of everything, but still has textures and sounds from HL2, a few re-texured/tweaked models here and there..
> 
> 
> ...


I'm no fanboy, your rant just has no merit.

everything was made new, yea they use sounds from their HL games, but that's valve, they do it for shits and giggles. If they had just reworked and re tooled everything, it owuld have taken months, not years. Like I said, this is a new game, if it was a mod, it'd be the same things with _modifications_. Have fun in your fantasy land you call the 'old days' Key word there is old. You were younger, stories were easier to agree with, even if no one talks 90% of the time.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> DLC, a new faddy catchphrase that makes me sick, DLC to me just means, an update that you have to pay for. Thankfully theyre mainly for consoles.
> Yeah, i played L4D2, I dont get what you mean... It had some new of everything, but still has textures and sounds from HL2, a few re-texured/tweaked models here and there..


OP, I have to ask, do you even know what the definition of sequel is?



> Pick any overhyped game that comes out, they're all the same.


Tangent: Does anybody else find "Overhyped" to be a redundant statement?
I mean, _nothing_ "hyped" ever lives up to it. Not games, not movies, not music...not even sex, and I've had a few really great encounters.



xcliber said:


> inb4 Halo!


In after Halo.



> I just hope Final Fantasy XIII lives up to my expectations. If it doesn't, then I give up as a gamer and am putting more attention to furry fandom.


If you're _that_ smitten with FF, I highly doubt any of them can disappoint you.


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## goose (Nov 18, 2009)

Good games haven't gone anywhere and huge marketing and hype combined with minor updates has been done for ages by EA Sports in their Madden NHL and FIFA franchises. Just look under the radar. That's where you'll find the good titles.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Since the popularization of consoles, the quality standards of games has dramatically reduced.


So... Since 1985?  You're totally right though, things just havn't been the same since before the crash of 1983!



Marticus said:


> It seems that nowadays it's ALL about the money, and this is rubbing off onto the PC gaming market too.


I'm pretty sure that it's _always_ been about making money.



> - Then came the marketing.
> - A billion noobs come flooding in, people who dont even play games normally. No, this isnt a bad thing, but the target audience was deffinitely shifting.
> - L4D2 was marketed to the 'public', not gamers, and they spent around $25mil doing it, money that COULD have been invested into development.


The 'target audience' for any video game company should be 'People who want to play video games'.  If you wanna get in and kill some zombies?  You're the key demographic!  You don't have to be some silly definition of 'gamer' to play games.  It's a TOY for christ's sake.



> -So now we have this game which is the same as L4D with new models, weapons and levels, which took about a year to make. Back in the good ol' days we would call that a mod... and it would be FREE.


Back in the day we had full retail 'Expansion Packs' for lots of games.  Or are you just selectively forgetting those?  Products that could very well be a mod but are typically more polished and have higher production value and are sold seperately.  Half-Life Opposing Force, anything for The Sims, every game of Civilization seems to get 2-3 expansions.  How about Civilization 4: Colonization?  A glorified Civ4 mod but a seperate stand alone retail product.  This isn't new, why do you think this is new?

Do you know what we had BEFORE your 'Good Ol' Days'?  Deluxe editions.  Need to fix bugs in your game?  Patches didn't exist, no, add some more content fix bugs, address a few issues and ship it out as a new retail product the year after the original.  Transport Tycoon Deluxe for example.  Had to buy the WHOLE game over agian to get three new environment types, some more options, and the airports and railroad switching didn't suck nearly as much.



> Ill keep it short, THIS GAME IS THE BEST GAME EVER MADE, or so the adverts would make you think. It's pretty much just MW1 in different locations. It plays like a film, but its not a film, this is baaaad. Very linear and scripted to the max.


 
You should play 'Time Crisis'. :V


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## JerJer (Nov 18, 2009)

xcliber said:


> I just never got into Halo. I played through 1 and 2, but 3 just didn't hold the same appeal. The multiplayer was ok, but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I just brought up Halo because I think it's way overhyped.
> 
> Ok, after FFXIII, I'll hang in there till Sonic HD comes out. If it fails, then I'll have officially lost all hope in Sonic.



I often wonder why there is still hope in sonic, seriously.. I highly doubt his games are going to get any better.. Seriously. And now that I see, SHD is a remake? Is that what's going to keep him alive now?

Also, as for Halo, I agree, it was alright, I mainly played for multiplayer but it's not as great as most people make it out to be.. Like a lot of games out now-a-days. Â¬Â¬


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 18, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> The 'target audience' for any video game company should be 'People who want to play video games'.  If you wanna get in and kill some zombies?  You're the key demographic!  You don't have to be some silly definition of 'gamer' to play games.  It's a TOY for christ's sake



thats not true its not about fun its about me being better than every1 else becuz im a pro gamer and im sponsored and everything.  "fun" as u call it meens theirs no room 4 us hXc players and tournys.   lol casual gamers are dumb they should stay with the wii LOL XD


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

xcliber said:


> after FFXIII, I'll hang in there till Sonic HD comes out. If it fails, then I'll have officially lost all hope in Sonic.


As with FF, the fact that you haven't lost your hope in Sonic games after god-knows-how-many shitty ones simply proves that you're easier to please than a mallgoth shopping for eyeliner.


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## xcliber (Nov 18, 2009)

JerJer said:


> I often wonder why there is still hope in sonic, seriously.. I highly doubt his games are going to get any better.. Seriously. And now that I see, SHD is a remake? Is that what's going to keep him alive now?


 No, Sonic HD is supposed to be, as the Teaser puts it, "A whole new adventure". So it deffinitely won't be a remake.
But yeah, the Sonic Cycle and some shit...

Even if the new stuff sucks, I'll always be a fan of the originals.


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## CinnamonApples (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> S'why it got five out of five, right?



Review scores aren't fact, they're opinion. Kbai :-D



xcliber said:


> Ok, after FFXIII, I'll hang in there till Sonic HD comes out. If it fails, then I'll have officially lost all hope in Sonic.



Lemme guess, you also said that for Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, and Sonic Unleashed?


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## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

CinnamonApples said:


> Review scores aren't fact, they're opinion. Kbai :-D


Opinion of respected reviewers that most people base their purchase off of kthxbai :-D


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## Xx WoLF (Nov 18, 2009)

L4D2 is freaking amazing, best zombie thriller I've ever played. MW2 is nothing short of astounding, Infinity Ward created a Masterpiece.


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## Ty Vulpine (Nov 18, 2009)

xcliber said:


> I do agree that there are a lot of shitty games out there though.



Every console has had it's share of shitty games. The NES had over 1,000 games, but how many were actually good/great/excellent? Maybe 25%-40%? The PS2 library had several hundred games, but again, how many were good/great/excellent? And so on.


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## CinnamonApples (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> Opinion of respected reviewers that most people base their purchase off of kthxbai :-D



Fair enough, except for the fact that all reviewers have certain tastes, and base their opinion off these specific views. Just because they didn't like a game, doesn't make it bad (or inversely, just because they loved it doesn't make it inherently good).


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## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

Ty Vulpine said:


> Every console has had it's share of shitty games. The NES had over 1,000 games, but how many were actually good/great/excellent? Maybe 25%-40%? The PS2 library had several hundred games, but again, how many were good/great/excellent? And so on.


This

I'd like to add that. This generation may have the best collection so far (save the wii, that's a shovelware machine) PS3 and xbox both have great games with great stories and great gameplay.



CinnamonApples said:


> Fair enough, except for the fact that all reviewers have certain tastes, and base their opinion off these specific views. Just because they didn't like a game, doesn't make it bad (or inversely, just because they loved it doesn't make it inherently good).



http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/call-of-duty-6/1043734p1.html

http://g4tv.com/games/pc/61913/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-2/index/

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/act...om_act=convert&om_clk=topten&tag=topten;all;3

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/104/1043366p1.html

I see nothing but 5/5 across the board.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> Opinion of respected reviewers that most people base their purchase off of kthxbai :-D


Last I checked, most _people_ based their purchases off of their own experiences with games of a given genre, and it was only _hXc G43m0rz_ who gave a damn about reviews :V


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## Captain Spyro (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Last I checked, most _people_ based their purchases off of their own experiences with games of a given genre, and it was only _hXc G43m0rz_ who gave a damn about reviews :V



Really. I thought I read most people based their purchases mostly off of word-of-mouth. Granted, it has been a while since I last saw that article, but I am sure that's what it said.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Captain Spyro said:


> Really. I thought I read most people based their purchases mostly off of word-of-mouth.


If you're mindless enough to base your purchase of a game on what somebody else said about it rather than whether you actually like a game of that genre to begin with, you're not sentient and therefore cannot be called a "person" :V


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## Captain Spyro (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> If you're mindless enough to base your purchase of a game on what somebody else said about it rather than whether you actually like a game of that genre to begin with, you're not sentient and therefore cannot be called a "person" :V



A little harsh...but I really can't disagree either.

I'm buying Uncharted 2 because I loved the first one, and I love similar type games.

Similar stories for Forza 3 and Dragon Age. I'm one of the few gamers in my area (if not the ONLY gamer), so word of mouth is lacking.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Captain Spyro said:


> A little harsh...but I really can't disagree either.
> 
> I'm buying Uncharted 2 because I loved the first one, and I love similar type games.
> 
> Similar stories for Forza 3 and Dragon Age. I'm one of the few gamers in my area (if not the ONLY gamer), so word of mouth is lacking.


Well, at least you're doing it right


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## Captain Spyro (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Well, at least you're doing it right



I want to be an example...but there is no one to be an example to!


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Captain Spyro said:


> I want to be an example...but there is no one to be an example to!


Hire a missionary.


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## Dream_of_Dragons (Nov 18, 2009)

I find gaming, for computers and consoles, to be like a yo-yo. They come out with some kickass games, their popularity shoots up, and everyone's going ballistic trying to get a copy. And then...they release a load of shit that lacks one or more of the main features that make an amazing game...and then generally people are less inspired to play more games for whichever system they love at the time. The cycle seems to repeat itself infinitely, or so it would appear to me. Of course, some people just like to assume a game, or the console itself to be junk because of reviews by people who just didn't like a couple games. I could list a few things, good and bad, about most consoles right now, but I won't, unless somehow my opinion is somehow important to the future of gaming itself.

However, I like to take my time in deciding what games to get, and whether I might have more fun playing this game or the other one. Found out to do that the hard way, I did...And spent a couple hundred dollars in total before I figured it out. But at least I don't suffer the problem of gaming-is-dead.
Sequels are, in my eyes, harder to create than the original game itself, and could be one of the reasons why many sequels turn out worse than the first in the series...

Damn, I lost my train of thought... Oh well, this is good enough for now, I guess...


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Dont forget that *Farcry 2* also got weirdly amazing scores and that sucked balls.

AshleyAshes, Id love to take the time to reply to you, but now I remember that you think Derren Brown shows are good so Im just not gunna bother, nothin personal 



Sinjo said:


> everything was made new, yea they use sounds from their HL games, but that's valve, they do it for shits and giggles. If they had just reworked and re tooled everything, it owuld have taken months, not years. Like I said, this is a new game, if it was a mod, it'd be the same things with _modifications_.



It didnt take them years... I'ts been a year between release dates.

...and yea youre totally right about the sounds from HL2 in there for shits and giggles, I totally cracked up when I heard C17 town_ambience.wav 

Though, im not going to pick at this, valve own the sounds, its fair.
Just seems really obvious when the 2nd game in a series comes out a year after, before the first is fully patched and fixed up, that they wanted to make some fast moolah!



LotsOfNothing said:


> thats not true its not about fun its about me being better than every1 else becuz im a pro gamer and im sponsored and everything. "fun" as u call it meens theirs no room 4 us hXc players and tournys. lol casual gamers are dumb they should stay with the wii LOL XD



lol.


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> [*]So now we have this game which is the same as L4D with new models, weapons and levels, which took about a year to make. Back in the good ol' days we would call that a mod... and it would be FREE.
> [/LIST]



You just described about 70% of "Sequels" out there. Morrowind is just an upgraded Daggerfall, gameplay wise. And did you know Fallout 2 was criticized for being too similar to Fallout? If it was drastically different then left 4 dead, then _there would be whining that it isn't Left 4 Dead and therefore sucks!!_ Isn't it funny how only some games are allowed to do that yet others aren't? 



> I could go on, but I'm not even 25 and I wish it were like the old days when games had no adverts and still delivered. Now people seem to just consume what is fed to them through the power of marketing.
> What happened to pushing the graphical e-penis boundries, creating awesome deep stories, *listening to your customers...*



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. LIstening to their customers? What a load of bullshit! If they listened to their customers, there wouldn't have *BEEN* a Playstation because gaming would have stopped at the SNES and Genesis, and maybe even further. There also wouldn't be a Morrowind because they'd have stopped at Arena. There wouldn't have been a Half Life 2 because they'd have stopped at Half Life. There also wouldn't have been a Sim City 3000 because they'd have stopped at 2000.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

^ I mentioned the same thing about sequels, Digi. He clearly _doesn't_ know what the word means.



Marticus said:


> Dont forget that *Farcry 2* also got weirdly amazing scores and that sucked balls.


Game magazines give higher scores to big-name games. This fact surprises nobody, but that doesn't make the rest of your rant meaningful.


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> ^ I mentioned the same thing about sequels, Digi. He clearly _doesn't_ know what the word means.



There are good and bad sequels, and some which just dont need to happen (yet).

I know now that sequel now means 'if public attention was there, rub more in their faces, release similar thing again asap'


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> There are good and bad sequels, and some which just dont need to happen (yet).


If you're saying that a Left 4 Dead sequel should have been made, and just not so soon, your rant is even more pointless than previously believed.


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> If you're saying that a Left 4 Dead sequel should have been made, and just not so soon, your rant is even more pointless than previously believed.



FU plz. I said ages ago that i wasnt dwelling on case studies, just the idea in general. Oh and the 'Super cool story bro', yeh, funny, nice one.


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## CryoScales (Nov 18, 2009)

Gaming isn't dead. Its just becoming more like Hollywood.



Sinjo said:


> S'why it got five out of five, right? The developers themselves have already stated they wanted the story to like an action move. Not to mention the game is primarily multiplayer.



Grand Theft Auto 4 got 10/10 and people ended up hating it anyway. They made Mass Effect like a film, yet some people disliked it. 

Point is. Ratings don't mean jack shit. As Ubisoft has proven to us, reviewers are often "Persuaded" to go more lenient on a game.



Marticus said:


> DLC, a new faddy catchphrase that makes me sick, DLC to me just means, an update that you have to pay for. Thankfully theyre mainly for consoles.
> Yeah, i played L4D2, I dont get what you mean... It had some new of everything, but still has textures and sounds from HL2, a few re-texured/tweaked models here and there..



I am pretty fond of DLC. But only for either small but useful stuff. (Like new costumes for Lara Croft in Tomb Raider Underworld.) or massive expansion packs (Like The Lost and the Damned)



Sam said:


> Hey - Halo is still pretty good. I think if you can get a lot of kills despite all the lag problems, and glitches that occur in mid game, you're a true gamer for sticking it out.



Halo is only good for multiplayer. If you want a good singleplayer by Bungi play Marathon or Pathways.



Sinjo said:


> Opinion of respected reviewers that most people base their purchase off of kthxbai :-D



Respected reviewers? Most of them are faceless. People who base their purchases off of overly biased reviews are EXACTLY what Ubisoft wants. That's why they nearly refused to give reviewers a copy when they said they wouldn't automatically give it a perfect score.



Digitalpotato said:


> You just described about 70% of "Sequels" out there. Morrowind is just an upgraded Daggerfall, gameplay wise.



Morrowind being upgraded from Daggerfall? Since when did we have to move our mouse left and right to attack, ride on horses, fast travel that took centuries, move across a gigantic map that was just the same textures repeating etc.

Daggerfall is more an upgraded version of Arena. Morrowind was a simplified version of Daggerfall. Oblivion, is just Halo with swords, and level ups and a generic fantasy world


> And did you know Fallout 2 was criticized for being too similar to Fallout?


Thats what happens when you don't change the gameplay that much, or change the proprietary engine.



> If it was drastically different then left 4 dead, then _there would be whining that it isn't Left 4 Dead and therefore sucks!!_ Isn't it funny how only some games are allowed to do that yet others aren't?


My feelings on L4D and L4D2 are different from his. I really would have wanted Valve to focus on other projects rather then their biggest money maker. I mean I am still waiting on Episode 3 and Portal 2. Yet here comes L4D2 less then a year after the first game. I really don't expect much from Episode 3, but I at least want Valve to get it out of the way. So they can finally start working on the next generation of the Source Engine.

Honestly I would have actually stood in line for L4D2 if it was done later. If Half Life 3's next gen Source game out I would have loved a zombie game on that.



Marticus said:


> Dont forget that *Farcry 2* also got weirdly amazing scores and that sucked balls.



<------- Disagrees

Farcry 2 wasn't as good as the original game. But I went into it with an open mind and loved some of their concepts. Ive never been to Africa, nor played a game that took place in the country. (Besides Tomb Raider and it's sequels. But those occur in tombs and not in the open country most of the time). I loved the free roaming aspect and while it could have been improved on, remember developers aren't perfect. Its difficult to develop a game and calling their attempt to actually be original for once as "sucking balls" isn't very nice. You can criticize a game but insulting it, is a different story.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> ^ I mentioned the same thing about sequels, Digi. He clearly _doesn't_ know what the word means.



A sequel is a game taking place in the same continuity, after the previous one. A prequel is one taking before. Clearly he does, just a warped perception of one.

However, QUALITY sequels are a completely different story and vary from person to person.


----------



## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Farcry 2 wasn't as good as the original game. But I went into it with an open mind and loved some of their concepts. Ive never been to Africa, nor played a game that took place in the country. (Besides Tomb Raider and it's sequels. But those occur in tombs and not in the open country most of the time). I loved the free roaming aspect and while it could have been improved on, remember developers aren't perfect. Its difficult to develop a game and calling their attempt to actually be original for once as "sucking balls" isn't very nice. You can criticize a game but insulting it, is a different story.



You're right, though it was personally dissapointing to me. Seemed way more linear than the original. My idea of free roaming isnt driving on a narrow road to an area that looked like the place i just came from. The combat seemed very clunky for an FPS, I never played online but I immagine it was quite poor. Though the atmosphere created was great and fires were awesome fun!


----------



## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Last I checked, most _people_ based their purchases off of their own experiences with games of a given genre, and it was only _hXc G43m0rz_ who gave a damn about reviews :V


I'd never wanted to play world of goo, Read some reviews and purchased it. Same with  supreme commander and a few other games.

For all of you saying people don't give a shit about ratings or that they don't matter. Why do people still get payed to do it? Why do they have a job dedicated to reviewing games?


----------



## CryoScales (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> For all of you saying people don't give a shit about ratings or that they don't matter. Why do people still get payed to do it? Why do they have a job dedicated to reviewing games?





			
				Cryoscales said:
			
		

> Respected reviewers? Most of them are faceless. People who base their purchases off of overly biased reviews are EXACTLY what Ubisoft wants. That's why they nearly refused to give reviewers a copy when they said they wouldn't automatically give it a perfect score.


I specifically stated that the ratings themselves are shit, not the people. People get payed to do it because sites make money off traffic. People get paid off by companies nowadays to "stretch" the truth about a game to people. Again referring back to Ubisoft's almost not letting a review site get a game to review.


----------



## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> I specifically stated that the ratings themselves are shit, not the people. People get payed to do it because sites make money off traffic. People get paid off by companies nowadays to "stretch" the truth about a game to people. Again referring back to Ubisoft's almost not letting a review site get a game to review.


and I s'pose Elvis is underground with jimmy hendrix?


----------



## CryoScales (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> and I s'pose Elvis is underground with jimmy hendrix?



The Ubisoft thing is proven not a rumor. It was reported in an article.

Capitalism takes its hold with everything. You think movie reviews aren't fixed? A move company does pay reputable movie critics off to rate their films higher, it is common knowledge to anyone who reads between lines.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Derren Brown


 
...I don't know who that is... o.o


----------



## Vaelarsa (Nov 18, 2009)

Okay. There is shit like Nintendogs and Pro Football 43589793425 out there, and you pick on L4D2 and Modern Warfare 2 as bad recent games?

..._What_?

Although I do agree that a lot of newer games are boring and generic as shit.


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Vaelarsa said:


> Okay. There is shit like Nintendogs and Pro Football 43589793425 out there, and you pick on L4D2 and Modern Warfare 2 as bad recent games?
> 
> ..._What_?
> 
> Although I do agree that a lot of newer games are boring and generic as shit.



Jesus, read my other posts.



AshleyAshes said:


> ...I don't know who that is... o.o


Then you wasted my time in a previous thread... Never mind.


----------



## blackfuredfox (Nov 18, 2009)

Vaelarsa said:


> Okay. There is shit like Nintendogs and Pro Football 43589793425 out there, and you pick on L4D2 and Modern Warfare 2 as bad recent games?
> 
> ..._What_?
> 
> Although I do agree that a lot of newer games are boring and generic as shit.



i miss the days of long ass FPS games, like Half-Life, damn that game was long and the final boss was pretty tough, and had a great ending. i always feel old in these threads.


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## Sinjo (Nov 18, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> The Ubisoft thing is proven not a rumor. It was reported in an article.
> 
> Capitalism takes its hold with everything. You think movie reviews aren't fixed? A move company does pay reputable movie critics off to rate their films higher, it is common knowledge to anyone who reads between lines.


It was proven that the _tried_.


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## CryoScales (Nov 18, 2009)

Sinjo said:


> It was proven that the _tried_.



Yes they tried. Who said other companies don't _try_ and succeed?


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## Smelge (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> DLC, a new faddy catchphrase that makes me sick, DLC to me just means, an update that you have to pay for. Thankfully theyre mainly for consoles.
> Yeah, i played L4D2, I dont get what you mean... It had some new of everything, but still has textures and sounds from HL2, a few re-texured/tweaked models here and there..



Ok, you want to pick on the DLC for L4D?

Note how they added a whole new game mode on it, they threw in a new scenario (fair enough only two levels, but still...). How much did they charge for this DLC? Nothing was it? Well, shit.

L4D2, looking at it, yes, some textures and stuff are the same. But the game itself isn't the same. They've taken what they learnt from the original and improved on it. And before you moan further, no matter how nice Valve is, they're still a company. They need to earn money or they stop being able to make games.

Seriously, they bring out possibly the most moddable, user-friendly game engine so far, with endless ways to tweak, and improve it. The ability to add levelss to any one of their games using the Source Engine. Then you moan because they add a shit ton of extra stuff and ask for a payment for the game.


Remember, companies adding content to a game is a privilege, not a right. In the end, the companies decide what they charge for, and I think you'll find Valve pay a hell of a lot more attention to the needs and wants of their consumers than any other company does.

I was a little pissed when they announced L4D2. I want them to get their arses in gear and get Episode 3 out. But, something like Episode 3 needs to be perfect. It's the last in the trilogy. L4D2 is pretty unscripted. Sure, events happen, but theres not much of a mythology to bild on.

So to the OP: TITS OR GTFO


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## CryoScales (Nov 18, 2009)

Voidrunners said:


> I was a little pissed when they announced L4D2. I want them to get their arses in gear and get Episode 3 out. But, something like Episode 3 needs to be perfect.



This post is win. However Episode 3 need not be perfect. I just want them to get it over with so they can start their next engine and Half Life 3


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## Kangamutt (Nov 18, 2009)

Voidrunners said:


> Ok, you want to pick on the DLC for L4D?
> 
> Note how they added a whole new game mode on it, they threw in a new scenario (fair enough only two levels, but still...). How much did they charge for this DLC? Nothing was it? Well, shit.
> 
> ...



THIS. ALL OF FUCKING THIS. I'm pretty sick of all the spoiled brats who bitch about things like OP does. Game development on the AAA level is NOT easy. Even some little indie operation isn't always going to be easy either, especially when you want to make something decent. And I don't see what the big fucking deal is about reusing textures/objects. A piece of wood is a piece of wood-but OH NO! It's the same fucking 2x4 from the previous game! It's just a waste of time to make the exact same model, make the exact same texture, normal map, UV unwrap it (fuck I hate doing that!) and assign it all, when it's all right there from the get-go, and you've got a deadline to meet.


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## Smelge (Nov 18, 2009)

You're wrong. It does need to be perfect.

The other episodes have been good, and each one pushes the limits of the engine. They need to have the story wrap up in a satisfactory way. It's the writing and level of detail Valve manage in their games as well as constant innovation that brings people back. It's deeper and better thought out than most other companies games.

Just play through with Commentary on and you'll see how much careful planning goes into the games. How they ensure the player is looking in what is seemingly a random direction in time to see a scripted event thats important to the story. Each game tends to be a masterpiece, and if the lawst episode fails on that, then it'll spoil the franchise.

So yes, it does need to be perfect.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if they were already at work on Source2 by now. If they plan to upgrade the engine, it'll be underway already.


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## Smelge (Nov 18, 2009)

See, I've had this idea for a game I want to pitch to Valve.

Basically, it's like Left 4 Dead, except the zombies are replaced with regular people. However, you and a group of friends need to travel across the city, but all the people want to beat you to it, so attack you.

The plot revolves around a National Toilet Paper crisis, and you're fighting your way to the only Portaloo in the state with bogroll in it still.

I call it Need2Poo.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> FU plz. I said ages ago that i wasnt dwelling on case studies, just the idea in general. Oh and the 'Super cool story bro', yeh, funny, nice one.


Cool story bro.



Sinjo said:


> I'd never wanted to play world of goo, Read some reviews and purchased it. Same with supreme commander and a few other games.


That's nice.



> For all of you saying people don't give a shit about ratings or that they don't matter. Why do people still get payed to do it? Why do they have a job dedicated to reviewing games?


Just because you get paid to do something doesn't mean it's useful. For example, have you ever heard of a little something called "middle management"?


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## Slade (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Every time a new game comes out I'm just disappointed in humanity. It seems that nowadays it's ALL about the money, and this is rubbing off onto the PC gaming market too.
> *Modern Warfare 2 (or COD four point two)*
> I'll keep it short... It's pretty much just MW1 in different locations. It plays like a film, but it's not a film, this is baaaad. Very linear and scripted to the max.
> ... it's just COD, not game of the year.


Holy fuck QFT.


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> . I'm pretty sick of all the spoiled brats who bitch about things like OP does.



I'm neither of those things... I just often feel ripped off when I spend my money on shit when I could have easily downloaded it for free.

Also I never mentioned Indie games, those I still respect, but when EA is shitting out cash into games, they tend to ignore genuine gamers and go straight for the mass market (of morons).

It's becoming a lot like the film industry.... shitter.



Voidrunners said:


> Ok, you want to pick on the DLC for L4D?



ffs, read my other posts, that was just a case study. End of.
Also, get your own tits.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> I'm neither of those things... I just often feel ripped off when I spend my money on shit when I could have easily downloaded it for free.


Sounds like a personal problem to me.



> Also I never mentioned Indie games, those I still respect, but when EA is shitting out cash into games, they tend to ignore genuine gamers and go straight for the mass market (of morons).


ITT: OP admits to being yet another elitist indiefag.


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## CryoScales (Nov 18, 2009)

Voidrunners said:
			
		

> The other episodes have been good, and each one pushes the limits of the engine. They need to have the story wrap up in a satisfactory way. It's the writing and level of detail Valve manage in their games as well as constant innovation that brings people back. It's deeper and better thought out than most other companies games.



I would just be happy with them ending with Gordon Freeman being put back into Stasis. The Orwellian setting was intriguing for the first game but it became boring after a while. Especially since Nineteen Eighty Four's the party was far more threatening then the Combine would be to the average human being. Since all the Combine would do is kill you, the Party would brainwash you into being a shell of a man, confess your crimes so no one would rebel. Then kill you



Voidrunners said:


> Also, it wouldn't surprise me if they were already at work on Source2 by now. If they plan to upgrade the engine, it'll be underway already.



I don't want them to upgrade it. I want them to completely redesign it into a new one. Like they do with every Half Life game, design a completely revolutionary engine.


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## Kangamutt (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Also I never mentioned Indie games, those I still respect, but when EA is shitting out cash into games, they tend to ignore genuine gamers and go straight for the mass market (of morons).



Well, considering the state of the economy, the industry can't just cater to the "hardcore" demographic, anymore. They need to broaden out to make money to keep the industry alive. It's a 2-way street. You need the money to purchase the computers and software. Then you need to pay a salary to the people who operate the computers and software which is used to design and programme the game. Then you sell off the game to perpetuate the cycle. Granted there are going to be people who will do it as a labour of love, but they aren't going to last as long as a company. And at times even that doesn't help and studios close down. Just over the weekend, Pandemic went under and got absorbed by EA.

You're looking too broadly, and at the same time being far too nitpicking.

Gaming is nowhere near dead. It's just having to ride through the recession like all the other industries.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> but when EA is shitting out cash into games, they tend to ignore genuine gamers and go straight for the mass market (of morons).


 
If they are playing games, they are genuine gamers.  And what makes them 'morons'?  Because they want games that they find fun and entertaining and appeal to them?  I mean, what makes that any worse than what maybe you want to play?

You seem to be stuck in an elitest view of how video gaming should be.


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## Marticus (Nov 18, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> ITT: OP admits to being yet another elitist indiefag.



Now youre just being silly, my jeans arent tight enough.



AshleyAshes said:


> If they are playing games, they are genuine gamers. And what makes them 'morons'? Because they want games that they find fun and entertaining and appeal to them? I mean, what makes that any worse than what maybe you want to play?
> 
> You seem to be stuck in an elitest view of how video gaming should be.



DERREN BROWN.

Gamers, people who have played a LOT of games and hunt out the best, not just casually. They're morons cause there clogging up mah servers and dumbing down the general IQ of the gaming society.



Kangaroo_Boy said:


> Well, considering the state of the economy, the industry can't just cater to the "hardcore" demographic, anymore. They need to broaden out to make money to keep the industry alive.
> 
> Gaming is nowhere near dead. It's just having to ride through the recession like all the other industries.



Some good points, but for large producers/distributors, I doubt money is an issue. IE: L4D2 Marketing budget estimated at 25million dollars.

*PS*: People need to chill the fuck out before they start pissing blood lol.


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Gamers, people who have played a LOT of games and hunt out the best, not just casually. They're morons cause there clogging up mah servers and dumbing down the general IQ of the gaming society.



That's a bit of elitism.  Way to be a hypocrite.


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## Kangamutt (Nov 18, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Gamers, people who have played a LOT of games and hunt out the best, not just casually. They're morons cause there clogging up mah servers and dumbing down the general IQ of the gaming society.



Well of course. You're playing on the internet; ANYBODY can be on the same server as you, and you ARE bound to run into idiots. 

Oh and "clogging up mah servers"? That is honestly sounding pretty elitist there, buddy. As much as you deny it, you're sounding like one.



> Some good points, but for large producers/distributors, I doubt money is an issue. IE: L4D2 Marketing budget estimated at 25million dollars.



Valve, in comparison to other AAA studios is a rather small operation with only one location in Washington, whereas most other developers are very large with large amounts of staffing in multiple locations around the globe. If one company with a small group can produce games that keep up with larger, competing studios, naturally they're going to have more money to work with, whereas the other studio is going to have to spread that same amount of money even thinner. And the larger companies are having to downsize. As I said in an earlier post, EA shut down Pandemic over the weekend, and absorbed a small part of the development team. While it may not seem like the industry's been affected by the economic crisis, it has.


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## TehSean (Nov 18, 2009)

Set Title on Marticus: 

Trying too Hard
-------------------------------------

Anyway. Gaming is only as dead as the community is. Gaming isn't dead. It's just not in your sphere of interests.
/thread


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## Shark_the_raptor (Nov 19, 2009)

The Drunken Ace said:


> Moder warfare 2 was worth every penny.



This.

I find Modern Warfare 2 more fun than the other CoD's.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 19, 2009)

Marticus said:


> DERREN BROWN.


My name is Ashley... 



Marticus said:


> Gamers, people who have played a LOT of games and hunt out the best, not just casually. They're morons cause there clogging up mah servers and dumbing down the general IQ of the gaming society.


I honestly think that the people who are 'dumbing down the general IQ of the gaming society' would be people like you who think this industry is somehow sacred and it owes you something.

You are a consumer and that means you can vote for retail products with your wallet.  Sales directly effect the later decisions that a game company will make.  If you don't like a game, don't play it.  If you like a game but 'the noobs' are playing it?  Relax, it's a good game, they want to play it because they think it's a good game, then their motivation is the same as yours.  Why do you think that you are more entitled to play that game than certian groups other people?  Because they don't dedicate as much time to the games as you do?   Maybe they're busy with other things, like having lives, social obligations, having girlfriends and things like that?


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## Smelge (Nov 19, 2009)

List of people dumbing down gaming:

* People who complain about too many new gamers
* Indiefags
* People who play sports games
* People who rant about companies not giving away free shit that they are ENTITLED to


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## Kanic (Nov 19, 2009)

Ehh, I just go with the flow. Just as long as it's fun.


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## Cute_Wolfy (Nov 19, 2009)

my latest big dissapointment was cnc4, from revies and dev comments i didnt expected something good, but had a small hope it could become good, but when i played a few games in beta, i lost all hope, even if it is beta i dont believe they will do massive changes, cuz that what you need in order to become better.
also watching comments under cnc4 videos saying"oh it will be awesome cant w8" make me mad, i mean ea is cutting 1500 jobs and a few studios, one of the teams that they will change is cnc4 dev team after cnc4 is released=no after release support, they just wanna squeeze the last money thats left from cnc title and then let it die. AND PPL WILL BUY THIS.
watching ea butchering games to take the money from these ppl dissapoint me, cnc started as a very good game and when ea took it started to make it worse and worse, with the final failure being cnc4.  i mean so many mistakes, didnt they learned anything to make games better?

who needs to make good games, when there are ppl that will buy them anyway?


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## Marticus (Nov 19, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> You are a consumer and that means you can vote for retail products with your wallet.  Sales directly effect the later decisions that a game company will make.



Well, okay, but this isn't true, look at Mirrors Edge, great game, new concepts, sales were crap, but theyre still making a new one. Crysis, sales were terrible, but they still made Warhead and are now working on a new one.

Btw, yeah I'm leet, whatever. pwn j00 with l33t skillz. 
Also, note that I never expressed any negitivity towards developers, just CEO's and Marketing tactics.

Shit like, Bobby Kotick:
"Games that have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises has worked very well for Activision Blizzard" (ninjad from FP)

I just hope now that these deliver:

_Mirrors Edge 2 
Mechwarrior 5 
Max Payne 3 
Hitman 5 
Battlefield 3 
Crysis 2 
Hl2:Ep3 
Portal 2
_


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## StarGazingWolf (Nov 19, 2009)

Im inclined to disagree, I think gaming is moving in a positive direction. You seem to dislike the fact that there is media presence behind promoting titles these days but to counterbalance the argument there is also a larger critical presence in gaming than there was 10 years ago and whilst there are an abundance of almost propaganda based reviews there are also those that are informative and offer an alternative opinion to what seems to be a bandwagon consensus. If anything, we are given more information and choice these days than I was ever given back in the cartridge era.

I also think it's just something about nostalgia. You remember older things more fondly than you do contemporary things. Maybe the mind just cuts out the bad parts and leaves you with a fonder memory overall.

Edit: A great game is timeless anyway. It'll be great for the game it is not how it was marketed. So something like MW2 that pushes a few boundaries and genuinely comes close to perfecting a well accepted system will be considered great. In the same sense that I still love FFVIII, it had a deep engrossing plot that fell in love with. Still great today if you ask me.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 19, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Well, okay, but this isn't true, look at Mirrors Edge, great game, new concepts, sales were crap, but theyre still making a new one.


It sold over a million units.



Marticus said:


> Crysis, sales were terrible, but they still made Warhead and are now working on a new one.


ALSO sold over a million copies.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 19, 2009)

ITT: OP did not do the research.


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## Marticus (Nov 19, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> It sold over a million units.
> 
> 
> ALSO sold over a million copies.



hl1 had 8million sales in 6ish years, its now on 20mil,
HL2: 6.5mil at retail.
MW2: 4.7mil in one day

I also happen to know that Crysis didnt make enough for a good few years to justify the budget.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 19, 2009)

Marticus said:


> hl1 had 8million sales in 6ish years, its now on 20mil,
> HL2: 6.5mil at retail.
> MW2: 4.7mil in one day
> 
> I also happen to know that Crysis didnt make enough for a good few years to justify the budget.


Your point? Do you understand that a game doesn't have to be a mega-blockbuster just to get a sequel?


----------



## Holsety (Nov 19, 2009)

> Well, okay, but this isn't true, look at Mirrors Edge, great game, new concepts, sales were crap, but theyre still making a new one.


Mirror's Edge was terrible, they base the appeal of the game around a face paced nature then have far too many moments where you're left standing on a rooftop going "Where am I supposed to go"

Don't even get me started on the repetition for minor fuck ups, good concept, below average game.

*Picks out minor and unimportant parts of the topic to bitch at*


----------



## Marticus (Nov 19, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Your point? Do you understand that a game doesn't have to be a mega-blockbuster just to get a sequel?



That was the point, in response to your last counter post, I'm just saying that a million sales is pretty low for a massive budget game.



Holsety said:


> Mirror's Edge was terrible, they base the appeal of the game around a face paced nature then have far too many moments where you're left standing on a rooftop going "Where am I supposed to go"
> 
> Don't even get me started on the repetition for minor fuck ups, good concept, below average game.
> 
> *Picks out minor and unimportant parts of the topic to bitch at*



Fair enough, I loved it, seemed well made, in all aspects, gameplay did have issues yeah, but at least DICE are trying new concepts and doing it with style.
The gaming scene needs more of this sort of thinking and less generic re-works of the same ideas.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Nov 19, 2009)

Voidrunners said:


> List of people dumbing down gaming:
> 
> * People who complain about too many new gamers
> * Indiefags
> ...



You're missing a *LOT*.

* People who ignore flaws in older games.
* People who cannot appreciate older games.
* People who expect every new game to have the same effect as games that are granted immunity to criticism they played when they were twelve and it was a whole new experience.
* People who whine about genres for doing stuff that DEFINES the Genre and continue to whine until it's pretty much conformed to their tastes exactly. 
* People who whine about people who play sports games.
* People who make their cocks feel bigger by putting down others simply because they like to play specific genres of games.
* People who assume everyone who likes games plays it only to fap.
* People who assume there is no such thing as Fan Dumb in their games. 
* People who whine at how Gaming is being expanded to include *OTHER PEOPLE*.


----------



## Vintage (Nov 19, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Shit like, Bobby Kotick:
> "Games that have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises has worked very well for Activision Blizzard" (ninjad from FP)



i am absolutely certain that for every bobby kotick there is a clint hocking who knows they're fucked up and is actively trying to fix it:



Esquire said:


> Passage was sad, it was sincere, it was personal, it was mysterious, it was existential, and for all these reasons, it was new. The big boys of gaming, a universe away from Potsdam, e-mailed it to one another. Clint Hocking, a designer at Ubisoft best known for Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, was so blown away by Passage that he made it a focus of his Game Developers Conference talk earlier this year. In front of an audience full of the industry's most influential game designers, Hocking growled, "Why can't we make a game that fucking _means something_? A game that _matters_? You know? We wonder all the time if games are art, if computers can make you cry, and all that. Stop wondering. The answer is yes to both. Here's a game that made me cry. It did. It really did."
> He put up a slide of Passage.
> Then he put up a slide of another small indie game, the Marriage, coded by Rohrer's friend Rod Humble. The Marriage uses brightly-colored circles and squares to model...a marriage. Humble claims to have made it after going through "a really heavy Kandinsky period."
> "I think it sucks ass that two guys tinkering away in their spare time have done as much or more to advance the industry this year than the other hundred thousand of us working fifty-hour weeks," said Hocking.


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## Smelge (Nov 19, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> You're missing a *LOT*.
> 
> * People who ignore flaws in older games.
> * People who cannot appreciate older games.
> ...



*X-Box Live users.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Nov 19, 2009)

Marticus said:


> That was the point, in response to your last counter post, I'm just saying that a million sales is pretty low for a massive budget game.


 
Do you honestly believe that every game with a big budget is automatically great and a huge financial success?  As in any entertainment industry there are big budget flops all over the place.


----------



## Zerig (Nov 19, 2009)

I hate when people say MW:2, because I always think they mean Morrowind 2.

So I get confused for a few seconds, then I get angry.


----------



## PenningtontheSkunk (Nov 19, 2009)

L4D2 was worth every penny.

I really don't care much for war games but that doesn't mean I won't play'em.


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## Kajet (Nov 19, 2009)

I like L4D2, the fact that it was released a year after the first one makes me think some people finally know how to make something GOOD and know how to capitalize on it without making fans wait forever and a half to get it... 

Remember in the cartridge days when game got sequels within 1-3 years distance of each other? Look at the original Sonic games, first one was out in 91, the second was out in 92, they didn't mess with the formula of the game a whole lot, And I'm pretty sure that they advertised back then...


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## Armaetus (Nov 19, 2009)

MW2 is rubbish, at least the PC port is...horrible horrible horrible move by Infinity Ward and Activi$ion.


----------



## Digitalpotato (Nov 19, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Do you honestly believe that every game with a big budget is automatically great and a huge financial success?  As in any entertainment industry there are big budget flops all over the place.



This. Remember Pac-Man on the Atari 2600? 

That's the only one I can name off the top of my tongue. ^^; I'm sure there's quite a bit more.


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## xjrfang (Nov 19, 2009)

I miss the old days of gaming with, "Share ware" yes...
many companys were releasing games for free, and you buy if you liked it,
then there were also many free ware games.


I find that modern Pc gaming, is dying, at least for the High end games, Its verging a point where almost every scenario that could happen in a video game, has already happend, Zombies, War, Aliens, and RPG, no one has new ideas. this is why video gaming is becoming repetitive.

And for the console bullshit, consoles ended for me with n64, everything after was lame and unimpresive, Pc's are all about customization, at least for me, setting it up the way you want. consoles are just a brick that sits near your tv.


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 19, 2009)

Well, gaming's dead for me now.  My laptop's GPU has finally decided to die.  :C


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## CryoScales (Nov 19, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> This. Remember Pac-Man on the Atari 2600?
> 
> That's the only one I can name off the top of my tongue. ^^; I'm sure there's quite a bit more.



Grand theft auto 4 made a ginormous profit and it cost them like 100 million to make


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 19, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> This. Remember Pac-Man on the Atari 2600?
> 
> That's the only one I can name off the top of my tongue. ^^; I'm sure there's quite a bit more.


 
Pac-Man is a weird cause cause it actually sold like 8 MILLION copies or something.  It was also hated, which is why 2 million units RETURNED.  It was a hit and ALSO caused the 1983 crash, it's sorta bizarre.

I get the feeling that everyoen wanted Pac-Man, everyone bought Pac-Man (Assuming it'd be just like the insanely popular coinop) then everyone was like 'WTF IS THIS SHIT?'


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## CryoScales (Nov 19, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> It was a hit and ALSO caused the 1983 crash, it's sorta bizarre.



Wasn't the crack that broke gaming's back in 1983 ET?


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 19, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Wasn't the crack that broke gaming's back in 1983 ET?


 
Both titles are credited, but ET gets more coverage.  Probably cause they paid a HELL of a lot more for the ET Lisence than they did Pac-Man.


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## CryoScales (Nov 20, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Both titles are credited, but ET gets more coverage.  Probably cause they paid a HELL of a lot more for the ET Lisence than they did Pac-Man.



Didn't they also give them like 6 weeks and 100$ along with like 3 guys to do it?


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 20, 2009)

Marticus said:


> I wish it were like the old days when games had no adverts and still delivered.


 
What the hell are you talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK0OFsWWzu4 (Sonic The Hedgehog)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQO2VtV1PNg (Super Mario Bros.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AvIqS_62xA (Grand Theft Auto 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om84Zc4-KcQ (Pole Position... POOOOOOLE POOOOOSITIOOON!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgqE2fwKt4c  (Ms. Pac-Man)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lqhu1wCpPk  (Sega Saturn)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_9xtK3zk9I (C&C: Red Alert)

Agian, I'm pretty sure that these 'good ol days' are just nostalgic fiction.


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## CryoScales (Nov 20, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> What the hell are you talking about?



I think he was talking about companies not devoting so much time propagating our lives with this much advertisement. Either that or he never saw advertisement for games "Back in the day" and just assumed they never did it.


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## Seas (Nov 20, 2009)

Marticus said:


> Oblivion



I agree with you mostly, except , I would put Morrowind there instead.
Oblivion was already dumbed down compared to Morrowind because of the console influence.


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## KrazFabbit (Nov 20, 2009)

Gaming isn't dead yet(sadly) but it really, REALLY needs to die, and soon. A world with only the computer and Wii is a much better world than the horrific crap we have now because of the terrible ports that are being forced down our throats.


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## Runefox (Nov 20, 2009)

> I miss the old days of gaming with, "Share ware" yes...


Yeah, you know, I miss that, too. It was a proven business model that really got the games out there. During the early days of modern PC gaming, it encouraged players to give these games to their friends, and their exposure was insanely enhanced. If I only had one level of Doom or Duke Nukem 3D to play with, I probably never would have bought those games, but they gave you a third of the whole game. What do you get now? If anything at all, you download a gig and you get a measly few minutes of a level - Barely a demo at all. Some games give you one whole level, others give you maybe two (L4D), but it's not even worth downloading demos any more.

I kind of get the whole lack of sharing game demos any more - Highspeed internet basically makes that obsolete - But then you have to realize that the question really is, is it the demo or the game that has no substance? From what I've been told and what I can glean from Newf's experiences, Modern Warfare 2's single player campaign can be finished in a matter of a few hours - No more than five to ten - and that's really incredibly short if you compare it to some older games (with Doom and Duke, for example, even after you finished the game, you could make your own levels, send them to friends, play them online and so on, not to mention total conversions and the like). Granted, a game like MW2's style really only allows for a cinematic type of experience - which is limited in scope and length - but really, for a $60 game (US), if you're not looking for the multiplayer experience, the game itself is making minimum wage in some places even assuming it takes you 10 hours to complete. There are better examples of games that have a little more staying power, but MW2's popularity puts it high on the scale.

That's not to say that games were better or even longer back in the day (a single level in Doom or Duke Nukem 3D could be completed in between under a minute to two or three minutes, depending on the level), but I feel that one should (at least be able to) expect more of a game like that, especially now that we've long since entered this generation, where the lines between PC gaming and console gaming have been blurred almost indistinguishably and game budgets are in the tens of millions.

Then again, games with smaller budgets are still proving to be ultra-fun and ultra-popular.



> many companys were releasing games for free, and you buy if you liked it,
> then there were also many free ware games.


I don't remember there being many freeware games (Red Baron is one example, though), but I don't think Shareware was ever used to give players a full game and then ask them to pay for it later. Then again, I haven't played every example of shareware out there, so I can't speak for them all.


----------



## LotsOfNothing (Nov 20, 2009)

KrazFabbit said:


> Gaming isn't dead yet(sadly) but it really, REALLY needs to die, and soon. A world with only the computer and Wii is a much better world than the horrific crap we have now because of the terrible ports that are being forced down our throats.



Lol a Wii gamer.


----------



## Marticus (Nov 20, 2009)

Seastalker said:


> I agree with you mostly, except , I would put Morrowind there instead.
> Oblivion was already dumbed down compared to Morrowind because of the console influence.



Yeah, I guess so. I still prefer Oblivion over Fallout3 though.



CryoScales said:


> I think he was talking about companies not devoting so much time propagating our lives with this much advertisement..



This yes.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Nov 20, 2009)

Marticus said:


> This yes.


 
Except that games have always put lots of money into advertising if they can.  IT'S AN ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.


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## Kangamutt (Nov 20, 2009)

KrazFabbit said:


> Gaming isn't dead yet(sadly) but it really, REALLY needs to die, and soon. A world with only the computer and Wii is a much better world than the horrific crap we have now because of the terrible ports that are being forced down our throats.



HAHAHAHAHA!!! THAT'S RICH!!! Maybe if you did some research about the system's library, and targeted audience, you wouldn't be where you are. Have you ever thought it might take some extra work to reprogramme a game to match the Wii's peripherals, causing it to increase in price? You made your bed, now lie in it.

Also, inb4 "360/PS3 fag", because I too own a Wii and it's the only current gen console I own. I'm also quite happy with it. Take your Wiilitism elsewhere.


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 20, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Except that games have always put lots of money into advertising if they can.  IT'S AN ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.



Yep. It's amazing how many people were living under a rock. There were *ALWAYS* commercials and advertisement. No, don't try saying "But nowadays we have internet advertisement" - it just turned out to be another form to advertise with. TV wasn't originally used for advertisement either, you know that?


Whaddya bet they'll start saying "But they only care about graphics, they didn't back then".


----------



## AshleyAshes (Nov 20, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> Yep. It's amazing how many people were living under a rock. There were *ALWAYS* commercials and advertisement. No, don't try saying "But nowadays we have internet advertisement" - it just turned out to be another form to advertise with. TV wasn't originally used for advertisement either, you know that?


 
What sticks out in my mind themost from early 90's game advertisement is the 'Sega Scream'.

I also remember the GameGear commercials that dissed the GameBoy while comparing it to the vision a dog has.


----------



## Kangamutt (Nov 20, 2009)

And let's not forget Nintendo's "Now you're playing with power!"
Or how about their breakfast cereal?

To say that advertising is killing gaming today is a load of shit.


----------



## Unicorpse (Nov 20, 2009)

I am one of those losers that has to buy the 360 ports to everything because the computer I mainly use is a mac, but then realizes I want to use mods so I go pick up the PC version too.  It's been this way with Left 4 Dead, Oblivion, Morrowind, Fallout, and Dragon age origins.

Man, all I want is a port of Conker's Bad Fur day and I'll be happy.  Not that xbox one with shitty multiplayer.


I also refused to buy MW2 because of it's big popularity that made them postpone the shipment of Harvest moon for 3 days. I could have upgraded my house to level 2 in that time.


----------



## CryoScales (Nov 20, 2009)

Unicorpse said:


> I am one of those losers that has to buy the 360 ports to everything...Morrowind



Morrowind isn't on the 360. The Xbox port is backwards compatible with the 360. However it is a horrible port and features bad lag and load times.

It's not the worst backwards compatibility problem Ive seen. Other games such as Kotor are severely worse. Honestly, its a much better investment just to dust off your original Xbox to play them.


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## Unicorpse (Nov 21, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Morrowind isn't on the 360. The Xbox port is backwards compatible with the 360. However it is a horrible port and features bad lag and load times.
> 
> It's not the worst backwards compatibility problem Ive seen. Other games such as Kotor are severely worse. Honestly, its a much better investment just to dust off your original Xbox to play them.




I meant the xbox. I tried playing Fable the Lost Chapters on my 360 and it totally messed up.  That conker remake called Conker's live and reloaded was also on the original xbox.

Every single Betheseda game is better on the pc.


----------



## CryoScales (Nov 21, 2009)

Unicorpse said:


> Every single Betheseda game is better on the pc.



I found my reasons for liking both ports were a matter of different taste. I found I played the game as a completionist and modder on the PC. While on the xbox I roleplayed a lot more.

In the case of a game like Daggerfall. You wish desperately it was on the PC. At least then you wouldn't have to deal with Dosbox


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## Runefox (Nov 21, 2009)

> In the case of a game like Daggerfall. You wish desperately it was on the PC. At least then you wouldn't have to deal with Dosbox


MS-DOS games are PC games. >_>


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## CryoScales (Nov 21, 2009)

Runefox said:


> MS-DOS games are PC games. >_>



Are you sure? A PC doesn't make me want to throw it out a window every time I try and run a program.


----------



## Kangamutt (Nov 21, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Are you sure? A PC doesn't make me want to throw it out a window every time I try and run a program.



Yes. MS-DOS predates Windows OS back to the first PC- the IBM 5150. Windows originally had to be run via DOS.


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## Runefox (Nov 21, 2009)

Kangaroo Boy is right - Windows 3.1, 95, 98 and ME all ran on top of MS-DOS, and the PC was almost defined as based on DOS, particularly in the way of games. PC gaming today is Windows gaming.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 21, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Are you sure? A PC doesn't make me want to throw it out a window every time I try and run a program.


 
If you ever actually tried to configure a PC running DOS rather than using DOSBox which makes it all nice and simple, you'd wanna throw it out the window too.


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## Runefox (Nov 21, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> If you ever actually tried to configure a PC running DOS rather than using DOSBox which makes it all nice and simple, you'd wanna throw it out the window too.



Hey, it's not THAT difficult. I mean, you've gotta juggle Himem, EMM386, your sound card, mouse, CD-ROM and any other drivers you might need, etc etc - Hell, you might have boot diskettes for different boot profiles so that you can play different games with different requirements. I remember one game, Jane's ATF, that required 490KB of conventional memory to run, which was a bitch to get running properly! But it's actually kind of fun in its own way, trying to get all those memory managers and TSR's and everything running just right while still being able to run games. ... Maybe I'm just a masochist, though.


----------



## XERO (Nov 21, 2009)

PC, as most people use it, means a clone of the IBM-PC, which in turn means every computer to run a Microsoft Operating System since MS-DOS, excluding Xenix, and OS/2.  The true meaning of a PC would constitute anything that is not a mainframe, supercomputer, or server.


----------



## KrazFabbit (Nov 21, 2009)

Kangaroo_Boy said:


> HAHAHAHAHA!!! THAT'S RICH!!! Maybe if you did some research about the system's library, and targeted audience, you wouldn't be where you are. Have you ever thought it might take some extra work to reprogramme a game to match the Wii's peripherals, causing it to increase in price? You made your bed, now lie in it.
> 
> Also, inb4 "360/PS3 fag", because I too own a Wii and it's the only current gen console I own. I'm also quite happy with it. Take your Wiilitism elsewhere.



Actually, I hate the Wii too, but it's the only console out there that isn't just trying to be a craptastic computer knockoff, so it can live. Besides, about the only thing that comes from the Wii is Mario, Pokemon, and casual games(though they've got some good other games too, just not enough). The 360 definitely needs to die in a fire, and the PS3 needs to be put down as well(and it's my favorite console of this gen)... Though a large number of the fanboys should also be put down, that's another thread.


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## goose (Nov 21, 2009)

Voidrunners said:


> List of people dumbing down gaming:
> 
> * People who complain about too many new gamers
> * Indiefags
> ...



* People who think waggling and flailing is the future of gaming.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 21, 2009)

goose said:


> * People who think HD graphics are the future of gaming.


Fixed that for you.



Runefox said:


> Hey, it's not THAT difficult. I mean, you've gotta juggle Himem, EMM386, your sound card, mouse, CD-ROM and any other drivers you might need, etc etc - Hell, you might have boot diskettes for different boot profiles so that you can play different games with different requirements. I remember one game, Jane's ATF, that required 490KB of conventional memory to run, which was a bitch to get running properly! But it's actually kind of fun in its own way, trying to get all those memory managers and TSR's and everything running just right while still being able to run games. ... Maybe I'm just a masochist, though.


Maybe.
In the same sense that "maybe" I'm a bitch


----------



## LotsOfNothing (Nov 21, 2009)

KrazFabbit said:


> Actually, I hate the Wii too, but it's the only console out there that isn't just trying to be a craptastic computer knockoff, so it can live. Besides, about the only thing that comes from the Wii is Mario, Pokemon, and casual games(though they've got some good other games too, just not enough). The 360 definitely needs to die in a fire, and the PS3 needs to be put down as well(and it's my favorite console of this gen)... Though a large number of the fanboys should also be put down, that's another thread.



"I HATE GAMING BUT I DO IT ANYWAY."


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## Ziff (Nov 21, 2009)

I hate COD games... period. but L4D2 is awesome. Don't know what you're talking about.


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## Runefox (Nov 22, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Fixed that for you.


Well, on a very technical standpoint, "HD graphics" (as they're called - PC gamers have enjoyed such for a decade now) _is_ at least one facet of the future of gaming. It comes with the hardware. Now, that said, are they _the_ future, _the_ saving grace that will springboard gaming into the next generation? No. Not really. Nor is this new rehash of olden-days "virtual reality" motion capture technology (though I'm sure we'll have a good run of that, too). Neither of those things truly innovates on any real level at this point, and neither of those things truly advances the medium.

Sure is pretty, though.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 22, 2009)

Runefox said:


> Well, on a very technical standpoint, "HD graphics" (as they're called - PC gamers have enjoyed such for a decade now) _is_ at least one facet of the future of gaming.


Graphics will continue to get better. That goes without saying. I mean, we're not still playing around on the Atari.



> It comes with the hardware. Now, that said, are they _the_ future, _the_ saving grace that will springboard gaming into the next generation? No. Not really. Nor is this new rehash of olden-days "virtual reality" motion capture technology (though I'm sure we'll have a good run of that, too). Neither of those things truly innovates on any real level at this point, and neither of those things truly advances the medium.


Exactly.
"Wagging and flailing" is a hell of a lot more innovative than just making everything shinier. If the Wii's motion sensors worked better, nobody'd be arguing over this but the eyewankers who think graphics are all that matters. But since these poor simpletons are the ones keeping gaming afloat lately, I suppose one shouldn't hate on them too much.



> Sure is pretty, though.


Eh, I prefer sprites. Disgaea owns, dood.


----------



## Runefox (Nov 22, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> "Wagging and flailing" is a hell of a lot more innovative than just making everything shinier.


Well, it might be, but with some very few exceptions by comparison to the software library's size, the only games thus far to take proper advantage of the Wii-mote's sensors have been first-party. Many other games, in particular those which are ports from other platforms, use it as a tacked-on feature, rather than at the core of the gameplay - Hence the "waggle and flailing". The accuracy of the Wii-mote's sensors, as you pointed out, is also a point of contention, particularly with me - I've always had jittery pointing and movement with my Wii-motes when I had them, and I'm not convinced Wii Motion Plus is going to fix that (not to mention you have to buy it).

But no matter - Microsoft and Sony are following suit, and Sony's track record for copying and refining is without equal. We'll see what the true potential of motion technology will bring as the industry as a whole embraces it. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath; As I've said, this has been done to death with cameras in the '90's for "virtual reality" setups, and it didn't catch on then, either. It may be better than nothing, but I wonder where the next true innovation will actually be.



Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Eh, I prefer sprites. Disgaea owns, dood.



I agree. Sprites are sorely underestimated in the graphical maelstrom we're seeing nowadays, and with the resolutions we have now, they can indeed look beautiful - Disgaea's one example, but also take a look at the PSP Final Fantasy I & II remakes, or the Guilty Gear and BlazBlue series, too; Just because something isn't in 3D, doesn't mean it's not in "HD", and doesn't mean it doesn't look beautiful. In fact, my opinion is that well-done sprites can beat out 3D models even today in terms of graphics quality, especially when considering the fine-tuned nature of the animation. Much like traditional animation hasn't gone the way of the dodo versus 3D animation for TV and film (though more and more are doing so), it, too, has a place in video games. Only problem is, there are far more 3D modellers out there now than there are sprite artists, and the hardware is much more highly fine-tuned to handle polygons than flat sprites.


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## Lazydabear (Nov 22, 2009)

Atari 2600 had some bad games but it had some fun games.


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 22, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Exactly.
> "Wagging and flailing" is a hell of a lot more innovative than just making everything shinier. If the Wii's motion sensors worked better, nobody'd be arguing over this but the eyewankers who think graphics are all that matters. But since these poor simpletons are the ones keeping gaming afloat lately, I suppose one shouldn't hate on them too much.



I love how people were complaining about button mashing and how they won't whine about how old pressing buttons on a controller, stroking keys on a keyboard, and moving your mouse around. 

So let's try something new and...
"BAAAWWWWW!"
Hm?
"BAAAAWWWWW!! WE WANT NEW STUFF!"
...but it's new because the motion-sensing isn't restricted to bulky arcade machines that cost way more than the average gamer can afford...
"BAWWWWW!!! ANYTHING THAT ISN'T JUST MASHING BUTTONS, STROKING KEYS, AND MOVING MICE AROUND IS JUST A GIMMICK TO SUCK OUR MONEY!!! WHAAAAAAA!"
*Cue companies banging their heads on the wall so hard...especially when people shell out hundreds of bucks for ____ Hero controllers that are nothing more than just Instrument-shaped controllers*


----------



## Runefox (Nov 22, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> I love how people were complaining about button mashing and how they won't whine about how old pressing buttons on a controller, stroking keys on a keyboard, and moving your mouse around.
> 
> So let's try something new and...
> <snip>



The difference being the only people to really do the motion controls on the Wii any sort of justice so far has been Nintendo themselves - First-party titles, with very few examples of truly good third-party titles that make good use of the Wii's ability. Quite frankly, Wii Motion Plus furthers the idea that the motion-sensing is a gimmick in that regard, and a money-sucking one at that. Unless more games make good use of the technology, I personally can't see the point in it - Much like I didn't see the point in the olden-days "VR" setups. Don't get me wrong - I'm not bashing the Wii, but I don't believe that the technology Nintendo set in motion was the game-changing difference that they need, and unless more third-party devs get on board, it will inevitably continue to receive negative comments.

The keyboard and mouse weren't seen as new arrivals by anyone - The keyboard in particular has always been there, ever since the earliest days of computing on a scale smaller than one computer per-room. The mouse came later, admittedly, and while not much use was gained from it to begin with, the advent of the graphical user interface propelled it into the mainstream. Its use in gaming was springboarded with the popularity of "true 3D" first person shooters and strategy games, and remains, in my opinion and in the opinion of many, the premiere way to play said games - Particularly strategy games. The Wii-mote provides some of the functionality of the mouse with its IR sensor, but its accuracy still leaves much to be desired. It is, without doubt, still not the ultimate leap forward in gaming - Not even as large a leap as going from the joystick to the D-pad.

In other words, keyboards/mice and controllers are proven to work, and they're practical. The major complaint I have about the Wii's input is that it's none of those things, and while what Nintendo were trying to do with it is a novel effort, it doesn't change the game enough that keyboards and mice and controllers aren't still the more practical choice.

Frankly, I wonder if there really will be any more advances in the market. There don't appear to be any other directions to go in, to be honest. I'm sure a lot of highly-paid people at Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are racking their brains for the answer to that very question.


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 22, 2009)

Yep, they've been proven to work...mostly because people actually *GAVE THEM A CHANCE*.


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## Runefox (Nov 22, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> Yep, they've been proven to work...mostly because people actually *GAVE THEM A CHANCE*.



Uh. OK, look, I owned a Wii, and I'm actually looking to get another one if I can get on my feet again. Again, stop taking things the wrong way - I'm not bashing it, I'm saying that its motion sensing isn't the be-all-end-all-oh-my-god-controllers-were-so-crap-why-didn't-we-use-this-all-along market-changing experience that Nintendo made it out to be. In the end, it was the same games as we've always had, except with a different twist. Nintendo's first-party titles tend to do incredibly well with handling the control scheme, but most third-party titles fall flat with very few exceptions as compared to the actual size of the library in general.

The point is, for most of these games, a controller could have sufficed just as well - and in many cases would have been superior. That doesn't equate to a big paradigm shift - Not like the Nintendo DS did for touch-based gameplay (which has gone on to be rather successful on the iPhone (for some reason)), and not like the NES's control pad did for console gameplay back when we were fiddling with joysticks and dials.

I don't know what the next innovation in gaming will be, but it won't be/have been the Wii, even if the others are following suit with their own motion-capable devices. If anything, I see it as being something akin to the addition of rumble.


----------



## Lazydabear (Nov 22, 2009)

People are not playing the new games on Nintendo Wii system just the old games hell its one of the best Emulator systems.


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## Starwind87 (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm of the opinion that console gamers *usually* aren't actually what I'd consider gamers, just people who play games sometimes. The difference? I'd say the difference is the same as someone who is a "sports fan" and someone who just watches sports, or someone who is a "punk rocker" and someone who just listens to punk rock. It's to what extent you're into the subculture, or how important the thing is to you as a hobby.

I'm personally on my PC during a very large chunk of my free time, either actually playing games or reading up on things about gaming. I have an expensive gaming rig, that I bought for gaming, and will upgrade later on to keep up with gaming standards. I have clothes with gaming/nerd themed stuff on them that I wear when I'm not at work. I keep fairly current on gaming releases/news. Some of my most played games are years old, or free mods most people have never even heard of.

That's compared to the *average* console player who usually just buys the console when the price drops, and plays whatever game is popular (usually a game like Guitar Hero or GTA) right then every so often, and otherwise isn't involved in gaming at all.

Just like the difference between the guys you see tailgating outside of every major sporting event for their team, wearing all kinds of sports paraphernalia all the time, watcing/going to minor league games on off days on the pro circuit, pays for the extra television addons to be able to watch four games at the same time and tivo ones he'll miss, and for apps on his cell phone to get up to the minute sport scores. Compared to the guys who watch the superbowl and sit down to watch the game on days they don't have anything better to do.

Or the guy who takes time off of work to make band tours, who goes out and purchases the whole catalog for any band that he likes, wears "scene" type clothing that fits whatever type of music they listen to, knows the names of the members of most every band in their favorite genre of music whether they like that band or not, and is heavily into the local music scene. Compared to the guy who pays for Rhapsody/Zune store or pirates bunches of music they heard on the radio, and may go to a concert now and then.

That said, the gaming industry is moving (and has been for a long time) more and more toward pleasing the console "gamer" market, because it's a much larger audience. Yearly sequels, paid DLC, Hollywood action movie style stories, and minigames. This isn't totally negative, however, since even the most hardcore gamer will still play some of those types of games and enjoy them. It's just yet to be seen whether the creativity and innovation in the gaming market keeps stagnating or eventually picks back up, or at least levels out.

Modern Warfare 2 for the PC doesn't give me much hope that we're near to the point where it will rebound, especially if doing what Activision/Infinty Ward has done- by taking a PC franchise, making the game for the console and porting it to the PC as-is, removing many standard features of a PC game in the process - starts to become a common practice. The game is actually quite good, even the multiplayer - though some fanatic dedicated server supporters would have you think that it's unplayable, it really isn't. It works, in the same capacity that Xbox Live works - but with all the implied negatives behind that.

P.S.
The bolded bits are to put emphasis on that generalizing word. And when referring to console gaming, I'm referring to current or last-gen console gaming. Not really anything before that, as it's really only gotten wildly, mainstream popular in the PS2/Xbox generations. I personally played Sega Genesis as my first home gaming experience (arcades before that).


----------



## Digitalpotato (Nov 25, 2009)

Starwind87 said:


> That's compared to the *average* console player who usually just buys the console when the price drops, and plays whatever game is popular (usually a game like Guitar Hero or GTA) right then every so often, and otherwise isn't involved in gaming at all.
> 
> Just like the difference between the guys you see tailgating outside of every major sporting event for their team, wearing all kinds of sports paraphernalia all the time, watcing/going to minor league games on off days on the pro circuit, pays for the extra television addons to be able to watch four games at the same time and tivo ones he'll miss, and for apps on his cell phone to get up to the minute sport scores. Compared to the guys who watch the superbowl and sit down to watch the game on days they don't have anything better to do.



These must be some screwed up gamers where I live...because I see way more *PC-EXCLUSIVE GAMERS* who fit this description than console gamers. Partly it's because...oh I don't know...they have a job because it costs money to run computers and eat? You sound like you aren't a gamer until you've pretty much committed so much to the hobby that it's *all you do,* and because you're most dedicated, you should be catered to exclusively? Sounds liek we need to remove a lot of people playing games...namely, people with jobs who don't live and breathe their games, since they are not true gamers and don't deserve Left 4 Dead 2. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY EXCLUSIVE CLUB - ONLY THE ELITE MAY JOIN!


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## Starwind87 (Nov 25, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> These must be some screwed up gamers where I live...because I see way more *PC-EXCLUSIVE GAMERS* who fit this description than console gamers. Partly it's because...oh I don't know...they have a job because it costs money to run computers and eat? You sound like you aren't a gamer until you've pretty much committed so much to the hobby that it's *all you do,* and because you're most dedicated, you should be catered to exclusively? Sounds liek we need to remove a lot of people playing games...namely, people with jobs who don't live and breathe their games, since they are not true gamers and don't deserve Left 4 Dead 2. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY EXCLUSIVE CLUB - ONLY THE ELITE MAY JOIN!



Notice the disclaimer about the bold lettered words in the post-script, about how it was a generalization and not an absolute fact. There are plenty of console gamers who are fairly hardcore, but play consoles for a various list of reasons, and conversely there are plenty of PC gamers who just play stuff like Plants vs. Zombies now and then, or log onto WoW 8 hours a week. Also notice how I never said they *should* cater to the hardcore crowd, just that they aren't. I also pointed out that even hardcore gamers can benefit from the casual-centric market, so long as they aren't totally put to the side.

I also have a full time job and I'm in the process of slimming down to join the Army. I said I spend most of my *free time* on games and gaming related things. Time spent on things you have to/need to do don't qualify as free time. My point wasn't so much of a correlation to time spent, more as to how serious you take it. Is it your primary hobby/recreational activity, ingrained into part of your every day life, or just something you do when you have nothing better to do?


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 25, 2009)

So in your mind...you're not a gamer unless you are so dedicated it's like you had children? Wow, and here I thought a hobby was just something you liked, not something you had to take care of like your children!!


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## Starwind87 (Nov 25, 2009)

Take care of? How about something you enjoy enough that you want to do it most every day? I had three options there, too, not just "do it with all my free time, every day" and "once in awhile". In reality there would be even more shades of gray, but for purposes of discussion you can't take them all into account.

A fairly good example of what I'm trying to point out is the differences between the people on the Modern Warfare 2 issue when the bomb dropped about the removal of dedicated servers, console, the ability to lean, and etc from the PC version. You had people who were immediately enraged and wanted to boycott it, people who thought it was a stupid idea and didn't plan to buy it, people who didn't like it and were on the fence, people who didn't like it but still planned to buy it, people who knew but didn't care, people who knew and thought it was a good idea, and people who had no idea about it. In descending order from most hardcore to least, for the most part. I was in the "thought it was stupid and didn't plan to buy it" and slipped down the list until I bought it after doing some post-release research.

Overall I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the spectrum between "primary hobby" and "integral part of my everyday life", leaning slightly closer toward the latter most of the time.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> These must be some screwed up gamers where I live...because I see way more *PC-EXCLUSIVE GAMERS* who fit this description than console gamers. Partly it's because...oh I don't know...they have a job because it costs money to run computers and eat? You sound like you aren't a gamer until you've pretty much committed so much to the hobby that it's *all you do,* and because you're most dedicated, you should be catered to exclusively? Sounds liek we need to remove a lot of people playing games...namely, people with jobs who don't live and breathe their games, since they are not true gamers and don't deserve Left 4 Dead 2. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY EXCLUSIVE CLUB - ONLY THE ELITE MAY JOIN!



I have to agree with your views Digital Potato. Gaming is a very expensive hobby and being a "Gamer" is pretty much just someone who acknowledges playing video games as one of their hobbies. That's it. Anyone else who has an elitist view on gaming. (Like you need to play not only popular games but rare games no one plays or spend hundreds of dollars on massive gaming rigs) is ludicrous and shows they don't spend much of their free times with their actual friends. You know, playing games how they were meant to be played. In the company of your friends on a weekend with booze and pizza.

I know gaming is just a hobby I take an interest in. I constitute myself as a gamer because I like to play games. It's like a guy calling himself a soccer player because he plays soccer in his backyard every afternoon. You can call yourself anything you like and having some rules on titles to give yourself is pure elitism that doesn't belong in this century.

Anyway back on topic with MW2. Just buy the console version, call some friends for Sunday night and go to the liquor store/order some pizza. That is at the heart, how gaming was meant to be played.

Its a big reason why games such as Halo and Guitar Hero are so popular. You can play them in the company of your friends.


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## AshleyAshes (Nov 25, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Its a big reason why games such as Halo and Guitar Hero are so popular. You can play them in the company of your friends.


 
I think that's how any game should be played. It should be social and fun. For a while there, from 1999-2005 or so, 'multiplayer gaming' was leaning far, far, far more towards 'guy sitting alone and playing online'. In this generation of consoles you see MUCH more emphasis on games that put a bunch of people on the couch together having fun. This is a social factor that PC gaming rather lacks. Crowding around the TV and couch is easy and fun, crowding around the desk... Not so much.

I honestly wonder if a lot of hte 'dedicated PC gamers' feel threatened because 'gaming' is starting to mean more than being alone while racking up frags.


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## Starwind87 (Nov 25, 2009)

No matter how much of a disclaimer you put up, people always seem to think of things in negative terms when you say something they don't agree with, even if what you said wasn't negative at all.

I also don't really enjoy gaming in a "sit around on the couch with a few other people" type of scenario except for games like Guitar Hero. Unless you drag everything including the kitchen sink along so you can get a large group of people all playing together, it's rather dull. I'd rather just go to a movie with my buddies, or go out to eat or whatnot. Then again, I've always been kind of introverted and never been big on the "lets just sit around and hang out" thing, even during High School.

I'd prefer to sit at home alone and play online, thank you. That may be a PC gaming thing, as one of the only time you see us get together is when it's a big LAN party, be it a friendly one or some kind of local/"pro" competition.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

Starwind87 said:


> Then again, I've always been kind of introverted and never been big on the "lets just sit around and hang out" thing, even during High School.



And that is why you have an elitist view on gaming when all it is, is just an expensive hobby




			
				Starwind87 said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to sit at home alone and play online, thank you. That may be a PC gaming thing, as one of the only time you see us get together is when it's a big LAN party, be it a friendly one or some kind of local/"pro" competition.



The majority of online gaming is not done in competitions. It's done in faceless chats with people you will never meet in your life. It desensatises us from actual human interaction. It's a big reason why most people aren't born introverted and antisocial but become so when they alienate themselves from society and choose to adopt a new reality.

That is why splitscreen gaming will always be more healthy for people. You are actually going out and talking to real life people. You know our immune systems are actually stronger for more social people? Its because human beings evolved into interacting with each other. All the internet does, is distance ourselves from real life social interaction in favor for faceless talking and faceless gaming.


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## Starwind87 (Nov 25, 2009)

Then again, I wouldn't agree with your earlier comment either. Just because Joe Schmoe plays soccer in his backyard every day, I wouldn't call him a soccer player. A soccer fan, maybe, other things depending, but not a soccer player.

My immune system and social skills aren't at risk, though. I work retail, and go to the gym four nights a week with a friend.


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## krimv (Nov 25, 2009)

Any kind of gaming whether it's on consoles or PC can be unhealthy if it becomes obsessive and starts literally affecting your daily life.  Whether you play at home alone and chat with people through headsets or if you're physically hanging around other people, you're still socially interacting in a way.  True, most people will never meet any of the people they talk with over the internet, but that doesn't mean it's any less of a way to socialize.

Also, I never got into PC gaming as I never liked the mouse and keyboard set up; it always felt very awkward and unnatural (though many people swear it's the best controller scheme).


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## TehSean (Nov 25, 2009)

When you speak face to face.

It's different.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

TehSean said:


> When you speak face to face.
> 
> It's different.



Yes your going to open up a chat window right in the middle of counter strike that shows a person's face, what they are doing and what they sound like.

No its not. 90% of language is told through the body. Just hearing somebody's voice on a choppy mike is not the same as actually sitting next to them on a couch while playing Halo.


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## krimv (Nov 25, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Yes your going to open up a chat window right in the middle of counter strike that shows a person's face, what they are doing and what they sound like.
> 
> No its not. 90% of language is told through the body. Just hearing somebody's voice on a choppy mike is not the same as actually sitting next to them on a couch while playing Halo.



True.  But you can be more free in your personality when you're not sitting right next to someone.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

krimv said:


> True.  But you can be more free in your personality when you're not sitting right next to someone.



So you show more personality to a complete stranger on Counter Strike then your friends?


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 25, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> So you show more personality to a complete stranger on Counter Strike then your friends?



Remember what forum we're on.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> Remember what forum we're on.



True enough. Forget I said anything basement dwellers. Just remember when you can't see your feet in the shower. (That one day of the month where you enter the bathroom and enter the bathtub) That's a sign that things are going downhill.


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## Starwind87 (Nov 25, 2009)

Because all introverts are basement dwelling fatties with poor hygiene who are afraid of going outside. Rather than just people who prefer their own company to that of others.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

Starwind87 said:


> Because all introverts are basement dwelling fatties with poor hygiene who are afraid of going outside. Rather than just people who prefer their own company to that of others.



That was a joke, but preferring your own company is an admirable trait now?

Encyclopedia Dramatica says otherwise.

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Basement_dweller


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> That was a joke, but preferring your own company is an admirable trait now?


It's more admirable than annoying the fuck out of everyone else like you do :V



> Encyclopedia Dramatica says otherwise.
> 
> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Basement_dweller


You're doing it wrong.


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## Kangamutt (Nov 25, 2009)

Starwind87 said:


> Because all introverts are basement dwelling fatties with poor hygiene who are afraid of going outside. Rather than just people who prefer their own company to that of others.



OH GOD SOMEBODY'S GONE OVERBOARD AND IS DROWNING IN THE SEA OF SERIOUS BUSINESS!!! HERE, CATCH!!!!


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> It's more admirable than annoying the fuck out of everyone else like you do :V



BAWWWwww?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 25, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> BAWWWwww


I didn't even need to edit that. GG.


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## TehSean (Nov 25, 2009)

CryoScales said:


> Yes your going to open up a chat window right in the middle of counter strike that shows a person's face, what they are doing and what they sound like.
> 
> No its not. 90% of language is told through the body. Just hearing somebody's voice on a choppy mike is not the same as actually sitting next to them on a couch while playing Halo.



My name is Cryoscales and I re-state what people say to give myself anything to say whatsoever.

I always quote you out of context to give myself the convenience of a point, even if it's completely made-up. Afterward, I just go negative all the time. I never have anything supportive to say.

I assert myself because it's the dominant thing to do. I'm not weak, and I'll let you know it. Especially if you claim not to care.

I'll make a retarded suggestion that because you bothered to point out that you don't care, that you actually care what I have to say, even though the declaration suggests the complete opposite.

It is reverse psychology at its most childish.

This post invites Cryoscales to feel good about himself, that someone on the internet doesn't like him. What do I care? I'll never meet that person face to face anyway. Why should I even bother being polite?


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

TehSean said:


> I assert myself because it's the dominant thing to do. I'm not weak, and I'll let you know it. Especially if you claim not to care.



Someone obviously needs to cite his sources.



TehSean said:


> It is reverse psychology at its most childish.



Someone needs to learn the proper definition of childish. Posting a mocking post about someone isn't childish?



TehSean said:


> This post invites Cryoscales to feel good about himself, that someone on the internet doesn't like him. What do I care? I'll never meet that person face to face anyway. Why should I even bother being polite?



Someone really wants to feel safe and secure on an internet forum


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## Armaetus (Nov 25, 2009)

Stop complaining about each other and talk about the thread topic, not hurling insults back and forth. You will get this thread locked if it goes on for long enough.


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## CryoScales (Nov 25, 2009)

Glaice said:


> Stop complaining about each other and talk about the thread topic, not hurling insults back and forth. You will get this thread locked if it goes on for long enough.



This thread should be locked. We already digressed very far off from the "Gaming is dead" topic about L4D2 and MW2 and are now debating about online vs splitscreen.

But either way I agree. Let us continue talking about how gaming is "Dead". For instance. How about Duke Nukem Forever. Is it killing gaming off?


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 26, 2009)

TehSean said:


> My name is Cryoscales and I re-state what people say to give myself anything to say whatsoever.
> 
> I always quote you out of context to give myself the convenience of a point, even if it's completely made-up. Afterward, I just go negative all the time. I never have anything supportive to say.
> 
> ...


This is the most turned-on a post has made me in weeks~<3


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## CryoScales (Nov 26, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> This is the most turned-on a post has made me in weeks~<3



That must not have been hard.

Either way back on topic to "Gaming is DEAD". How would people say gaming isn't dead or to the contrary. I would quote my previous posts, but lets hear what other people have to say.


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 26, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> This is the most turned-on a post has made me in weeks~<3



I didn't know you were easy.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 26, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> I didn't know you were easy.


How many times must I remind you people what my last job was? :V


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 26, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> How many times must I remind you people what my last job was? :V



I never caught news of that.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 26, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> I never caught news of that.


Here's a hint: What's the difference between Alex Trebek and a mallard with a cold?


----------



## Fructus (Nov 26, 2009)

Marticus said:


> *Summary*
> I could go on, but I'm not even 25 and I wish it were like the old days when games had no adverts and still delivered. Now people seem to just consume what is fed to them through the power of marketing.
> What happened to pushing the graphical e-penis boundries, creating awesome deep stories, listening to your customers...


It could be that you just imagined the old days were better cause u were younger and thus liked to play games more than now, I've played some old games on PSX emulator recently and can't believe what kind of rubbish i played while i was younger.


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## CryoScales (Nov 26, 2009)

Fructus said:


> I've played some old games on PSX emulator recently and can't believe what kind of rubbish i played while i was younger.



Back in the day we had better imaginations. Like on the Atari 2600 when we could imagine Pitfall Harry dodging snakes and logs. Now graphic's baby us too much in the imagination department.


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## LotsOfNothing (Nov 26, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Here's a hint: What's the difference between Alex Trebek and a mallard with a cold?



You're my mom?  D:


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 27, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> You're my mom?  D:


...yes ;~;


----------



## LotsOfNothing (Nov 27, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> ...yes ;~;



WHY DID YOU LEAVE ME   ;^;


----------



## CryoScales (Nov 27, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> WHY DID YOU LEAVE ME   ;^;



Lotsie shh shh. Drink your masturbation juice and sit in the corner


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 27, 2009)

LotsOfNothing said:


> WHY DID YOU LEAVE ME   ;^;


Well, I had to work, and then the cops showed up...


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## Pika (Nov 27, 2009)

So I read the first page and that seemed like a sensible discussion, then I come to the last and it's 4chan everywhere. What happned? D:

Anyways back on topic: I don't think 'gaming is DEAD' at all, not even close infact. I think PC gaming is just on a downturn.

If this has already been established i'm sorry, but 7 pages of Serious Business is too much to read


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 27, 2009)

Am I the only one on the forums who has her settings at 100 posts per page? ._.;


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## Starwind87 (Nov 28, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Here's a hint: What's the difference between Alex Trebek and a mallard with a cold?



I forget how it ends. But your mother's a whore.


----------



## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 28, 2009)

Starwind87 said:


> I forget how it ends. But your mother's a whore.


Yes, that's what I was getting at. Hence the part where it's revealed that I'm LoN's mom :V


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## Digitalpotato (Nov 28, 2009)

Pika said:


> So I read the first page and that seemed like a sensible discussion, then I come to the last and it's 4chan everywhere. What happned? D:
> 
> Anyways back on topic: I don't think 'gaming is DEAD' at all, not even close infact. I think PC gaming is just on a downturn.
> 
> If this has already been established i'm sorry, but 7 pages of Serious Business is too much to read



And people not willing to stand that there are actually *OTHER PEOPLE* who're playing games - it seems a lotta people want gaming to be a restricted hobby reserved ONLY for their elite aristocracy.


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## Lazydabear (Nov 29, 2009)

Its Laughable enough a guy kept running around stabing and throwing a Knife at people and manage to get 24 or more doing it in Multi-player. I did the same thing and manage to get 26 or more kills running around without fireing a single shot in Call of Duty it seems it doesn't really take any skill at all.


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## Rigor Sardonicus (Nov 29, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> And people not willing to stand that there are actually *OTHER PEOPLE* who're playing games - it seems a lotta people want gaming to be a restricted hobby reserved ONLY for their elite aristocracy.


Sounds like the lifestylers, amirite? :V


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## BloodYoshi (Nov 29, 2009)

change the title of this thread to "I don't like L4D2 and MW2" so it'll receive the attention it deserves


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## Holsety (Nov 29, 2009)

Rigor Sardonicus said:


> Am I the only one on the forums who has her settings at 100 posts per page? ._.;


I like clicking new pages.

It makes me feel special.


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## CryoScales (Nov 30, 2009)

ChillCoyotl said:


> change the title of this thread to "I don't like L4D2 and MW2" so it'll receive the attention it deserves



I think it already has. Plus the fact that "Gaming is DEAD" doesn't sum it up?

Anyway to continue with the topic at hand. I don't understand the gripe with L4D2 exactly. Sure Valve could have waited and made some of their backburner games, but it is still a good game on it's own.


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## Vinzin (Nov 30, 2009)

Sure I mean, L4D2 feels like an upgrade from L4D, but one thing people (especially PC gamers) need to get is that "They don't HAVE to give you ANYTHING free", I'm especially surprised how much of an update TF2 has gone through, but that doesn't mean each and every one of their games is going to receive the same treatment (I thought that's what you guys had mods for anyways).


----------



## Internet Police Chief (Dec 8, 2009)

I didn't read all of OP but I just want to say that L4D2 is bitchin and there is so much more than just a mod there. Have you actually played it? It's a huge improvement over the first one, which was one of my favorite games ever.

Some of the levels I don't like (I FUCKING HATE Hard Rain and Swamp whatever. Both are boring, slow and have mechanics that are just plain frustrating instead of fun), and I liked the first games characters (all of the new ones but Nick whine at every turn) more, but everything else? Awesome. Especially once the SDK comes out, as they've announced that the SDK will come with support for entirely new weapons and characters, and NOT just model/texture swaps.


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## Taffer (Dec 9, 2009)

I have to agree. Gaming had died recently. However, there is a game that is no different now than back in 1998. It's called Warzone 2100. In my opinion, it's one of the most underappreciated games of all time. It's an RTS game that takes place in the future, in a post-apocalyptic world. There, a group of survivors known as the Project, must protect what's left of the world from nuclear weapons, which is exactly what caused the whole problem.

Nice thing is that you can make your own units. Tanks, hovers, VTOLs (aircraft). The only thing you can't change are the cyborgs and structures, but there are so many different types. You research rather than build to unlock things. Has what we call "Indirect fire" weapons. Attach them to a sensor and destroy your enemies from a distance (Ripple rockets and Archangel missiles can reach the enemy base from yours depending on map size).

Game engine is still the same in many ways. No disappointing "improvements" to my knowledge. Open-source, so if you know a bit of programming, you can make your own AI or mod (lots of people have already, including a programming stooge like me).

If you join the forums, you'll want to behave. The people there are generally the no-nonsense, serious kind of people, although they do have personalities and a bit of humor.


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## Digitalpotato (Dec 9, 2009)

Recently? Gaming's been dead on arrival to the Arcades.


----------



## AshleyAshes (Dec 9, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> Recently? Gaming's been dead on arrival to the Arcades.


 
I miss arcades.   *plugs his Guncons into his PS2 and plays Time Crisis 3*


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## Digitalpotato (Dec 9, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> I miss arcades.   *plugs his Guncons into his PS2 and plays Time Crisis 3*



[SARCASM]BUT ARCADES MADE GAMES *POPULAR!*!! THAT'S *BAD!!!*
[/SARCASM]


Seriously, I actually miss them too. :/ Skee Ball doesn't have the same feeling on a d-pad or mouse.


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## Kane Quicktail (Dec 9, 2009)

goose said:


> Good games haven't gone anywhere and huge marketing and hype combined with minor updates has been done for ages by EA Sports in their Madden NHL and FIFA franchises. Just look under the radar. That's where you'll find the good titles.



*cough* Cortex Command *cough*
http://www.datarealms.com/
it be free to play (limited features), $10 to buy. Incomplete game currently, but helluva great game. Completely moddable via Lua.



Aspie Shapeshifter said:


> I have to agree. Gaming had died recently. However, there is a game that is no different now than back in 1998. It's called Warzone 2100. In my opinion, it's one of the most underappreciated games of all time. It's an RTS game that takes place in the future, in a post-apocalyptic world. There, a group of survivors known as the Project, must protect what's left of the world from nuclear weapons, which is exactly what caused the whole problem.
> 
> Nice thing is that you can make your own units. Tanks, hovers, VTOLs (aircraft). The only thing you can't change are the cyborgs and structures, but there are so many different types. You research rather than build to unlock things. Has what we call "Indirect fire" weapons. Attach them to a sensor and destroy your enemies from a distance (Ripple rockets and Archangel missiles can reach the enemy base from yours depending on map size).
> 
> Game engine is still the same in many ways. No disappointing "improvements" to my knowledge. Open-source, so if you know a bit of programming, you can make your own AI or mod (lots of people have already, including a programming stooge like me).



Warzone was/is an awesome game. I still play it, they offer it for free now. Hence the open source >.<
http://wz2100.net/


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## AshleyAshes (Dec 9, 2009)

Digitalpotato said:


> Seriously, I actually miss them too. :/ Skee Ball doesn't have the same feeling on a d-pad or mouse.


 
Honest to god, I once went looking for some simulation of a claw machine.  No luck.  I think the Wii has Skeeball on one of those minigame collections by a third party, but Wii, meh.

One of the awesome parts was after the BIG arcade crash of the early 80's, arcades kept going but to compete with home consoles they had to come up with gimmicks that were exclusive to the arcades.  Some awesome stuff came from that, full jetfighter cockpits and racing seats with hydrolics, neat control interfaces.  Sega did releases of Sega Stike Fighter and Ferarri F355 Challenge that used three screens for a super wide screen view and it was powered by four Dreamcast/NAOMI motherboards!  Arcade games wern't just 'games', they were attractions and that was awesome.  I collect up racing wheels and light guns and arcade stucks for consoles but I'm only somewhat able to replicate the experiences and it's a bit sad.


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## Sutitchi (Dec 10, 2009)

I can see what you mean to an extent but gaming is far from dead. I completely understand that there are loads of generic shooters about now (although I do love MW2 and L4D2 for playing with mates online) but theres also alot of amazing, more creative games coming out like Bayonetta, No More Heroes 2, Metriod: Other M, New Zelda for wii and Last Guardian.


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## CryoScales (Dec 10, 2009)

Vinzin said:


> Sure I mean, L4D2 feels like an upgrade from L4D, but one thing people (especially PC gamers) need to get is that "They don't HAVE to give you ANYTHING free", I'm especially surprised how much of an update TF2 has gone through, but that doesn't mean each and every one of their games is going to receive the same treatment (I thought that's what you guys had mods for anyways).



My arguments on L4D2 are that Valve should have waited. They still have a lot more deserving games on the back burner that they obviously haven't worked on. Such as Portal 2 and Episode 3. Games they promised to go back to, yet suddenly release a sequel to a recent game less then a year later.


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## Muki Hyena (Dec 11, 2009)

Before I voice my opinion, I'd like to stress I'm not an extremist who's all "YOU SUCK FOR PLAYING THE PS3" or "GO KILL YOURSELF FOR LIKING XBOX 360." I have a 360 and play it often. Each console has their own pros and cons. 360 has a huge failure rate, you have to pay for XBL, but their service is great and their library is awesome. PS3 was expensive as hell, the library sucks, but it's got a blue-ray player and free online. The Wii has motion support and great franchises (Metroid, Zelda), but lacks hardcore games and serious online support.

Overall, I prefer the PC. Though it's more expensive, when it comes down to it, the PC overall  has much more capabilities. Everything you get with a console you have on the PC, and more. You get games, modding and game development capabilities, voice chat, mouse and keyboard which is ideal for FPS games, and even motion control (People have modded wii-mote support for HL2). But they're just not developing good games for it because of "piracy."

I recently bought Rainbow 6 Vegas 1 for the PC, I didn't play it for ten minutes. They didn't even allow customization of the controls, all of the "change firing mode," "silencer on or off" was bound to the reload key, no matter what. And, I'll be honest, the whole thing with the PC version of MW2 pissed me off. I still haven't bought it. Not until modders hack in dedi servers, which I hear is in the works. The game has new features, but has downgraded features of MW1. No mod support, no dedi servers, there's not even Q and E leaning. LEANING, of all things. I used that frequently in MW1, I don't understand why they would take it out. On top of that, they slapped 10 more bucks onto the price.

As for recent games, Unreal Tournament 3 was impressive to me, really built for the PC, a beautiful engine, amazing mod support. It's surprising to me that it doesn't have more players...

At least the old games are all still there and available. Nostalgia ftw I'm seriously. I still play Halo PC and UT2004 on a regular basis.

Whew, that was a mouthful. Good thing I'm used to that sort of thing. ahahaha im so funny


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## Digitalpotato (Dec 13, 2009)

AshleyAshes said:


> Honest to god, I once went looking for some simulation of a claw machine.  No luck.  I think the Wii has Skeeball on one of those minigame collections by a third party, but Wii, meh.
> 
> One of the awesome parts was after the BIG arcade crash of the early 80's, arcades kept going but to compete with home consoles they had to come up with gimmicks that were exclusive to the arcades.  Some awesome stuff came from that, full jetfighter cockpits and racing seats with hydrolics, neat control interfaces.  Sega did releases of Sega Stike Fighter and Ferarri F355 Challenge that used three screens for a super wide screen view and it was powered by four Dreamcast/NAOMI motherboards!  Arcade games wern't just 'games', they were attractions and that was awesome.  I collect up racing wheels and light guns and arcade stucks for consoles but I'm only somewhat able to replicate the experiences and it's a bit sad.




Yep...I remember when people actually gave those gimmicks a chance. Nowadays everyone whines about wanting new things, then says "OH MY GOD THAT IS A GIMMICK SO IT SUCKS!!! GAMING IS RUINED FOREVER!" and refuse to give it a chance, while buying games that really aren't trying anything new in truckloads. (or pirating them.)


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