# Is depression real?



## Aleksion (Mar 8, 2017)

Depression is perhaps the most widespread form of mental illness and I know a lot of people suffer from it in this fandom. It's an interesting topic to me, actually all forms of mental issues interests me, don't be shy if you have something different to add.

So is depression real? We all can feel sadness. Even I myself feel bummed sometimes. But it always goes away. Of course chronic sadness is not the only way depression manifests. There are many other symptoms, fatigue, lack of motivation, I'm not qualified to name them all. But I think they are just extensions of intense sadness anyway.  I've heard there are two main reasons why people get depressed:

1) _Something really bad happens_. But why not to just let go? Life goes on, things change, wounds heal up. But why people keep poking their wounds? They poke it for months, now it's all infected, puss is everywhere. You catch my drift, don't you? Thinking about it doesn't do anything good. It blows my mind when people say, I want to talk about my depression. Oh god, seriously!?

2) _Your life is shit_. Well, what did you expect? Being stressed 24/7 is bad. It seems a lot people forget a body isn't the only thing which needs to be taken care of. What can you do? Ask people in Africa why they don't have mass depression epidemic, despite not even having clean drinking water. Different attitude!


Wait, but did I just say depression is real myself? *TL;DR *Depression is the same as being fat, so yes it is real, but it is caused by bad habits and poor life choices alone, just as obesity. It's purely a psychological condition. Everything is alright with your head, you're not sick, you just need to live a mentally healthier lifestyle and all be good.


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## mechanicalrain (Mar 8, 2017)

An except from an article in Psychology Today;

*"The Difference Between Sadness and Depression*

Sadness is a normal human emotion. We’ve all experienced it and we all will again. Sadness is usually triggered by a difficult, hurtful, challenging, or disappointing event, experience, or situation. In other words, we tend to feel sad _about_ _something_. This also means that when that something changes, when our emotional hurt fades, when we’ve adjusted or gotten over the loss or disappointment, our sadness remits.

Depression is an _abnormal_ emotional state, a mental illness that affects our thinking, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors in pervasive and chronic ways. When we’re depressed we feel sad about _everything_. Depression does not necessarily require a difficult event or situation, a loss, or a change of circumstance as a trigger. In fact, it often occurs in the absence of any such triggers. People’s lives on paper might be totally fine—they would even admit this is true—and yet they still feel horrible.

Depression colors all aspects of our lives, making everything less enjoyable, less interesting, less important, less lovable, and less worthwhile. Depression saps our energy, motivation, and ability to experience joy, pleasure, excitement, anticipation, satisfaction, connection, and meaning. All your thresholds tend to be lower. You’re more impatient, quicker to anger and get frustrated, quicker to break down, and it takes you longer to bounce back from everything.

In my TED talk, I discussed one of the more unfortunate consequences of this confusion: How people struggling with depression are often expected to "snap out of it," and are told "it’s all in your head," or "choose to be happy!" Such sentiments reflect a deep _misunderstanding_ of depression. It only makes the person with depression feel worse."

*Healthline*;
"When you’re sad, it may feel all-encompassing at times. But you should also have moments when you are able to laugh or be comforted. Depression differs from sadness. The feelings you have will affect all aspects of your life. It may be hard or even impossible to find enjoyment in anything, including activities and people you used to enjoy. Depression is a mental illness, not an emotion."

*Columbia University Medical Center;*
"Sadness follows losses or disappointments, and is a normal part of any fully lived life. Healthy people eventually rebound, and apart from periods of grief or mourning rarely cease functioning in daily activities.

Moreover, healthy people do not tend to blame themselves for the normal losses of life, whereas depressed people often feel undue guilt or self-criticism.

Finally, individuals with depression often experience marked sadness in the absence of any cause, whereas healthy individuals have moods that relate more to life experiences, and moods that are in proportion to the intensity of those experiences."

*Harvard
Health;*
"Increasingly sophisticated forms of brain imaging — such as positron emission tomography (PET), single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT), and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) — permit a much closer look at the working brain than was possible in the past. An fMRI scan, for example, can track changes that take place when a region of the brain responds during various tasks. A PET or SPECT scan can map the brain by measuring the distribution and density of neurotransmitter receptors in certain areas.

Use of this technology has led to a better understanding of which brain regions regulate mood and how other functions, such as memory, may be affected by depression. Areas that play a significant role in depression are the amygdala, the thalamus, and the hippocampus (see Figure 1).

Research shows that the hippocampus is smaller in some depressed people. For example, in one fMRI study published in _The Journal of Neuroscience_, investigators studied 24 women who had a history of depression. On average, the hippocampus was 9% to 13% smaller in depressed women compared with those who were not depressed. The more bouts of depression a woman had, the smaller the hippocampus. Stress, which plays a role in depression, may be a key factor here, since experts believe stress can suppress the production of new neurons (nerve cells) in the hippocampus.

Researchers are exploring possible links between sluggish production of new neurons in the hippocampus and low moods. An interesting fact about antidepressants supports this theory. These medications immediately boost the concentration of chemical messengers in the brain (neurotransmitters). Yet people typically don't begin to feel better for several weeks or longer. Experts have long wondered why, if depression were primarily the result of low levels of neurotransmitters, people don't feel better as soon as levels of neurotransmitters increase.

The answer may be that mood only improves as nerves grow and form new connections, a process that takes weeks. In fact, animal studies have shown that antidepressants do spur the growth and enhanced branching of nerve cells in the hippocampus. So, the theory holds, the real value of these medications may be in generating new neurons (a process called neurogenesis), strengthening nerve cell connections, and improving the exchange of information between nerve circuits. If that's the case, medications could be developed that specifically promote neurogenesis, with the hope that patients would see quicker results than with current treatments."



---TLDR; Depression is different from sadness on a chemical and biological level, which we are only just now beginning to understand. it is impossible for depressed people to 'get over it' because their brain chemistry literally doesn't allow them to.


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## Storok (Mar 8, 2017)

I think depression is a joke... Ppl Are sad then no one listened to them so they invent something that sounds sooo bad to make ppl listen to them. That's th point where I start laughing and give em even less attention.


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## Aleksion (Mar 8, 2017)

mechanicalrain said:


> ---TLDR; Depression is different from sadness on a chemical and biological level, which we are only just now beginning to understand. it is impossible for depressed people to 'get over it' because their brain chemistry literally doesn't allow them to.



Drug addicts somehow manage to drop the habit cold turkey style despite having real physiological withdrawal symptoms not to mention psychological ones. It's bad, but they do it, they become stronger, while weaklings fail and let themselves to to consumed by it.

This brain chemistry theory has one very serious problem, that is correlation does not imply causation. Of course when the person is distressed for weeks, changes in the body happen as well. Body and mind is one thing after all.


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## Xaroin (Mar 8, 2017)

Welp I mean I am a pessimistic person, and no matter how hard I try I talk myself down


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## Leoni Zheitk (Mar 8, 2017)

Storok said:


> I think depression is a joke... Ppl Are sad then no one listened to them so they invent something that sounds sooo bad to make ppl listen to them. That's th point where I start laughing and give em even less attention


Being so sad that you don't feel the need to live anymore and actually starting to have suicidal thoughts is _not_ a joke my friend.
I used to be depressed in middle school, but now I've just accepted the fact that nobody really gives a shit about what I say for the most part.
I don't think you and I are talking about the same "depression"


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## Storok (Mar 8, 2017)

Leoni Zheitk said:


> Being so sad that you don't feel the need to live anymore and actually starting to have suicidal thoughts is _not_ a joke my friend.
> I used to be depressed in middle school, but now I've just accepted the fact that nobody really gives a shit about what I say for the most part.
> I don't think you and I are talking about the same "depression"


See "depression" doesn't work when you don't get attention and suicidal thoughts are normal I think when I hear someone on teamspeak asking if the f-86 is a sabre too but without the F2... I think "why am I still alive" and start playing with the thought if I should grab the bleach


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## AlleycatIrony (Mar 8, 2017)

depression is definitely real and myself and a good deal of ppl around me have it, all at varying levels (can't think of a better word rn i just woke up)
it's not just simply 'being sad', if it were only that boy howdy it would be pretty damn easy to ignore it, wouldn't it? no, depression is... (i'm not v good at describing feelings, bear w/ me) a deep, heavy sensation in ur  chest that doesn't go away and a cloud that seems to fill ur head making it hard to think

said weighing down often makes it difficult to do anything other than sleep, usually (i have trouble even finding the motivation to pick up my tablet pen and draw amongst other things but unlike a lot of ppl i can get over it bc i have more control over myself? if that makes sense... i refuse to let my problems get in the way of letting me be a functioning person despite how hard it is)

depression is usually a passed down disorder (from what i've noticed, myself and ppl close to me also have parents who are sufferers, but then again - it is p common so i could be wrong here) in the sense that if ur parents have/have had it, there's a high chance u would too, and a lot of teenagers end up w/ depression due to the stresses and responsibility school weighs down on them - seeing as schools tend to care more abt ur grades then ur mental health, so it declines 
but ofc sometimes it just... happens and there's not rly anything one can do abt it occurring

obviously most decide to go on medication in order to combat it but i personally would rather not bc of how against drugs i am (i won't even drink coffee bc of caffeine), but that's just a personal choice of mine bc i know i can live my life w/ depression - not easily, mind u, but i can do it
sometimes medication is the only thing that helps ppl 'fix' the way their brain behaves in order to neutralise some of their symptoms temporarily 

a lot of ppl who are depressed are also suicidal and as someone who's dealt w/ suicidal thoughts (they get p bad like damn i'll be having a bad day, drop a pencil and it's like ok time to die, but once again i refuse to let that get the better of me) and friends/family that have attempted suicide it's rly not a light matter to be joking abt, i nearly lost my dad a couple of weeks ago and i would've if i hadn't called him

yes, i understand how ppl believe suicide is a 'coward's way out' or is 'selfish' but sometimes ppl feel like they have no other choice, and often it's all because of _depression_

i didn't word this well but then again i'm not good w/ words if i'm writing something like this spontaneously 
_
_
*your brain is an organ, and like all organs it can get sick
depression is one such illness, it's an illness of the brain*


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## Mandragoras (Mar 8, 2017)

Speaking as someone with a major depressive disorder, I can tell you flat out that being depressed is very different from simply being very upset. It feels very, very different, and it cannot be rationalised away. Think of it like a faucet, measured amounts of a particular emotion coming out as is appropriate to the situation. Depression is a broken faucet: Dripping constantly, spilling out far too much when only a little is needed, and stuck surging like a geyser without warning, without rhyme or reason. You miss a bus and you want to jump in front of the next one. It is, as Alleycat said, an illness of the central nervous system—a condition, not simply an emotion.

For me, SSRIs help a great deal. I can actually focus on things besides how hopeless reality seems and how hard every little thing is. I can see that there are things which I can do even if there are many which I cannot, which I could not do in the depths of my untreated episodes. I am healthier now. I am recovering.


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## Storok (Mar 8, 2017)

I just wonder what causes it ...


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## Royn (Mar 8, 2017)

see this is exactly why dont like going to the Doctor.  ALWAYS makes tongue sad by depressing it with that wooden thingee whilst telling to say "aaaah".


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## Selly (Mar 8, 2017)

I used to think it was something people used to draw attention to themselves about 12 years ago.

But now, I've seen what it does to people, I even have it myself, after being sectioned as to why I tried to kill myself on several occasions.

It isn't something that just happens for a day, it's not something that just happens overnight either. It could be one experience, it could be a combination of things that have happened over one's lifetime.

A lifetime of being singled out, bullied, abuse at home, abuse at school by fellow pupils and even teachers. Discrimination due to disability/ies. Being publicly humiliated and embarrassed... Those are a few things that have affected me over the past 25 years I've been alive. A lot of it was born from self-doubt after a lot of what happened happened (I won't list all of it, because a lot of the bigger factors that have happened would require a lot of explanation on subjects I'm not willing to openly talk about on the internet). Honestly, it's like living in a world in black and white, where you feel like you're just a burden, you doubt any friendships you have, and you feel like you have nowhere to turn. That's when death seems like the only way out, after you honestly feel like everyone hates you and you bring no joy to anyone.

That's not all of it either, there's things I can't explain in any way that makes sense, but depression is very real, and it is freaking horrible and I don't wish it on anyone. 

It may seem silly to some people, but some are more prone to it than others... You never truly know what's going on in another person's life, or what they're going/have been through.


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## Yakamaru (Mar 8, 2017)

Depression is a problem for a lot of people. Seek a professional and get help.

If you instead want attention you will get none from me.


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## Sergei Sóhomo (Mar 8, 2017)

About as real as my credit score


Which is pretty fucking real


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 8, 2017)

I opened this thread expecting to see a philosophical debate along the lines of "if I'm feeling this way because of my depression, are my feelings still real?" 

I did not open this thread expecting to see some frankly offensive dismissals of a very real mental illness. The _only_ reason I'm not closing this thread right now is because we've had some heartfelt posts from people talking about their own experiences and realizations, and out of respect for those people I want to give the thread a chance to go in a more positive direction. 

I *do not* want to see any more statements like these, however:


Aleksion said:


> *TL;DR *Depression is the same as being fat, so yes it is real, but it is caused by bad habits and poor life choices alone, just as obesity. It's purely a psychological condition. Everything is alright with your head, you're not sick, you just need to live a mentally healthier lifestyle and all be good.





Storok said:


> I think depression is a joke... Ppl Are sad then no one listened to them so they invent something that sounds sooo bad to make ppl listen to them. That's th point where I start laughing and give em even less attention.





Storok said:


> See "depression" doesn't work when you don't get attention and suicidal thoughts are normal I think when I hear someone on teamspeak asking if the f-86 is a sabre too but without the F2... I think "why am I still alive" and start playing with the thought if I should grab the bleach


Any more of that and I'll be handing out infractions.


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## Aleksion (Mar 8, 2017)

Guys, you don't need to tell me how depression is, I know it suck. 

I want to compare depression with love, because I think they are very similar and I understand the latter better and it should help me to illustrate my point. So when a person is in love, he/she does not think straight anymore, they are all over the place, constantly thinking about their partner. Many people commit suicides over failed loves. If we do brain scans I'm sure we will see some differences compared to normal brain. Why isn't love classified as a mental illness? Strange, it fits all the criteria perfectly. If you tell them to stop loving and forget the person, it won't work. The same as with depression you can't just get over it. But does falling in love require some conscious effort or does it happen automatically, without even thinking about it? Of course you need to put in some work! And you know what's the best part? No matter how overwhelming it was at the beginning, feelings fade over time and sanity comes back, then people get divorced, unless you put in a lot of effort to maintain those feelings, why should it be any different with depression? Just don't get so attached to the feeling of being depressed


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## Liar (Mar 8, 2017)

Depression is indeed a thing. It is real, and like anything else involving the human body and mind, it comes in many forms, and so do the ways that we deal with it. It's even experienced and described differently in different cultures which suggests it is not only universal, but relative.

The key, as mechanicalrain points out, is that it changes the way you think. Not just about what sucks, but about everything. It changes you with the same profundity that psychoactive drugs do. The same way that love does. That's what makes it so difficult for some to deal with, because it takes a high level of self awareness to even realize the difference between the depressed you and the real you.

That's where therapy comes in. I am strongly opposed to throwing pills at problems. I believe that depression can be resolved virtually 100% of the time with cognitive behavioral therapy, but sometimes it just makes more sense to get a little pharmaceutical help. Still, your mind created the problem, and it can fix it. Eventually.

Edit: Aleksion, love can absolutely be described as a mental illness! It affects brain chemistry and perception just the same! The difference is that it isn't considered detrimental.


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## Bluey Grifter (Mar 8, 2017)

It's a tough one. You get older. Real life hits you. You may or may not get tougher and less sensitive. Things that might have really got you down (like a put-down can do...) might become like water off a ducks back. Dealing with adulthood and the real world can get very hard. I've cared for parents with long term sicknesses... Then you watch them die. It's things like this put it all into perspective and it's one thing that makes the furry life so awesome because it can take you out of all that to a point. I think with me that's what it is anyway. Escapism, but also the feeling of being reborn almost! Leave the shit behind kind of thing. Me and depression though - I rarely feel 'down', and if something happens, like my father wets the bed again... it is 'depressing' I suppose. But it all made me stronger and I bounce right back.


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## Aleksion (Mar 8, 2017)

Bluey Grifter said:


> It's a tough one. You get older. Real life hits you. You may or may not get tougher and less sensitive. Things that might have really got you down (like a put-down can do...) might become like water off a ducks back. Dealing with adulthood and the real world can get very hard. I've cared for parents with long term sicknesses... Then you watch them die. It's things like this put it all into perspective and it's one thing that makes the furry life so awesome because it can take you out of all that to a point. I think with me that's what it is anyway. Escapism, but also the feeling of being reborn almost! Leave the shit behind kind of thing. Me and depression though - I rarely feel 'down', and if something happens, like my father wets the bed again... it is 'depressing' I suppose. But it all made me stronger and I bounce right back.



Life can be rough, but that's good it forces you to learn. If it gets too bad you can always press the exit button, so you don't need to be afraid of anything. No matter how bad it gets, there's always a solution.


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## Bluey Grifter (Mar 8, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Life can be rough, but that's good it forces you to learn. If it gets too bad you can always press the exit button, so you don't need to be afraid of anything. No matter how bad it gets, there's always a solution.


It sure does. You can have a dreadful day and then tomorrow can be amazing


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 8, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> But does falling in love require some conscious effort or does it happen automatically, without even thinking about it? Of course you need to put in some work! And you know what's the best part? No matter how overwhelming it was at the beginning, feelings fade over time and sanity comes back, then people get divorced, unless you put in a lot of effort to maintain those feelings, why should it be any different with depression? Just don't get so attached to the feeling of being depressed


It sounds like you're conflating love and infatuation to some degree. The two are not the same, and expecting them to be the same accounts for a large share of break-ups. Your experience of/with love also has very little in common with mine. It's something that crept up to me over time (and I suppose in that it has something in common with depression - few people wake up one day suddenly debilitatingly depressed), and it's not something I've ever felt a need to work to fuel. You have to work on _relationships_, yes, but that's not the same as working at love itself.

Infatuation, by its nature, does fade over time. Love? Not nearly so clear-cut. Sure, you can fall out of love, and I'm not saying you can't. But it's not an inevitable reality that you need to work hard to stave off. My terrible awful no-good housemate (whom we're working on evicting) has fraudulently transferred ownership of his car to his father, who is wheelchair-bound (and this is liable to eventually result in some significant costs for his father). He's been sweet-talking his mother out of money for years. Their other children have all but cut off contact with them for keeping in touch with their black sheep son. But his mother still loves him. It makes absolutely no logical or rational sense for her to continue to support him, but she still loves her son. 

Assuming that all emotions and mental states work the same is also a fallacy, as is assuming that an individual in the grip of depression has the tools to shift their thinking to something that can begin to heal them - that's why we have therapists, because people have to be _taught_ and _guided_ in re-training their brains. It's less like learning to, say, ride a bike, than it is like training a stream to run along a new path. Even then, you'll have some individuals whose brain chemistry is just fundamentally wonky, and who do need chemical aid in order to function somewhat normally.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 8, 2017)

Storok said:


> I just wonder what causes it ...


Generally speaking, it's an issue with the movement of serotonin within the synapses of the brain, in which said chemical should be moving from Point A to Point B but it keeps getting sucked back to Point A instead. Now, the obvious question here is, what is serotonin and what does it do? In a nutshell: Serotonin is a neurotransmitter which helps regulate things like mood, sleep, appetite, digestion, pleasure and pain—a whole lot of things, really, the most relevant one here being that its release stimulates what we might call active emotions, like excitement and happiness. Simply put, your happiness valves are broken.

Bipolar disorder tends to involve issues with dopamine, another brain chemical which is stimulated by serotonin and has to do with reward responses in the brain, but I'd be out of my depth if I tried to explain that. To whit, serotonin transmission is far from the only reason that depression happens, although it is the chief "mechanical error" involved.

^ All of this, too. Cognitive-behavioural therapy is important, but often medication is also a necessary part of the equation.


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## Cerberus326 (Mar 8, 2017)

Well things do go up and down alot some times worse before better or it doesn't..But there are ways of changing it...Like being with people now I'm not saying o look at me it's so bad...All the time...But talking to a few does help but you must also help your self when you can. Been there done that still doing that ups N downs...But also please think of it this way if you do have these issues....It's not just you!...Every single person has them or still going threw it...Also remember there are others who are worse so help if you see it.but watch for those o look at mes out there. Plus watch for those who don't say anything...Those are the ones who need at lest a talk with.there are a few who will do what they say but sometimes you never know between a good talk to at lest let them know someone cares and the ones who say it's done just for attention.....But if any one cares enuff or even talks to ya then it's not that ..How can I say this ...That bad. I've done a few things N been through a whole lot of crap too...But I'm still kicking because if I don't ..."another hint"....Who else will! Plus it helps to be a good ball once in a while or even think of the song from Bob Marley..You know it "don't worries everything's gana be alright"...Things like that...Step up N keep swinging that bat! Even if you never hit anything..OK now I'm shutting up lol


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## Andromedahl (Mar 8, 2017)

As someone with bipolar disorder, I can say 100% depression is real. Almost didn't make it to be 17 cause of it :^P 
Just came by to chip in for people that don't use meds/aren't too familiar with things like antidepressants that while meds are a sometimes a necessary thing to get by (I literally wouldn't be a functional person without 'em) they don't make y'happy as much as they get you to baseline functioning so you can be able to -feel- good again; Meds make you stand up again, but its up to you to walk to put it in metaphor.


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## Simo (Mar 8, 2017)

I really with it wasn't real. Ug.

It's a hard thing to deal with, without any really easy 'fixes': what 'works' in one case might totally make things worse in another.

The worst things I tried were taking SSRI/SNRI based drugs (Effexor, Prozac, that whole family): made me a total zombie, killed my creativity, things felt muted, sexual sensation felt like it was dissociated and not at all satisfying, which was really horrible, and I'd get these zappy feelings like little electric shocks, and it made me really, really tense. Pretty much the same happened with Wellbutrin, which works on Dopamine. So I am very scared of drugs in those classes; things that mess with my serotonin, nope, will never touch them again with a ten foot poll!Even very lose dose regimins of these meds proved a total disaster, and the weirdest part had to be that feeling of denationalization, and how it made sex/touch feel 'muffled', like you couldn't really feel it. This is hard to describe, but as a sensual person, I found it horrifying, especially because they have k\no idea what even causes this all too common side effect.

What's funny, is what a relief is was when I stopped taking them/trying different and trying to 'get used to them': it was like I was my 'self' again, up, down, but at least alive.For a while, I was very much 'up', just to have my senses back to normal.

~

For me, what's helped most is getting the 'agitated' aspect under control, so I can focus, and get involved and keep busy, with writing, doing things, talking to friends...I'm very much an extrovert, but also tend to be on the moody/intellectual/brooding side, an odd combination.

I also see a talk-therapist weekly, and that has very much helped keep me afloat; I don't make much money, but have good insurance, so it's a $15 copay. And we tend to laugh a lot, for some reason, in our sessions...I not sure why, but I guess I am good at telling funny stories, and he finds the whole furry thing fascinating. Huh, maybe I will try and convert my therapist into a furry 

Edit: What has helped with the 'agitated'/racing negative thoughts part of my depression has oddly been Valium, after trying many, many meds. I guess it has a bad image, but I've taken a regular low dose for some time, and have not had to increase it. It seems to quiet the static in my brain, and then, I'm a lot more productive, and able to better get on with things. Plus, the Rolling Stones have a cool song about it. ("What a drag it is getting old...")


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## Mandragoras (Mar 9, 2017)

Valium is actually a really helpful drug, particularly for anxiety disorders and severe insomnia. My few personal experiences with it, as a treatment for panic attacks (an infrequent bane on my existence), were quite positive.

At the end of the day, though, nobody's body chemistry is quite identical, and different people will respond in wildly different fashions to different medications and treatments. The only surefire thing to help is to have a good support network and understanding people to talk to when you need it who can help you work out distorted thought patterns and foster good habits—which seems orthogonal to the physical stuff, but hey, it's the brain we're talking about.


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## Tsuko-chi (Mar 10, 2017)

Depression isn't a fancy word for sadness. It's a mental illness. A drop in serotonin in our neurotransmitters. Depression can also be a side effect a different illness as well. Like if some one had bpd they probably experience depression as well. It's a confusing topic for neurotypicals they might says it a perspective or just in your head. it is in the head, the brain is a powerful influence to the point it manifest physically. With the lack of one chemical we lose more than emotions, but it takes away physical capabilities as well. I could go on forever but I will stop here.

I hope this leaves insight.


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## nerdbat (Mar 10, 2017)

I was diagnosed with depression for several years, which is something I can actually prove with papers (althrough I'm obviously more than a bit hesitant to document personal information to strangers), and yeah, I call BS on this post. Depression _is_ when "something's not right in your head". I'll simplify things a bit here for the sake of convenience, but basically, you have prolonged periods of feeling like shit despite not having actual reasons to feel like shit, and when actual reasons happen, you feel even more like shit - so, you can make yourself feel slightly less shitty by taking a proper care of yourself, and that's something I went through too (I broke my coffee addiction and burned a lot of fat during that time), but it'll not magically cure you or something. My head was thankfully fixed with a lot of pills and medical visits - if I've listened to OP of this thread, I would most likely kill myself sooner or later after hours of hopeless "I DO EVERYTHING RIGHT WHY AM I NOT HAPPY YET" thoughts, so I'll say while this way of thinking can be applied to some situations, in others it's downright damaging. Always check your local therapist first before making conclusions about reasons of your sadness - I'm still glad I did.


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## Aleksion (Mar 10, 2017)

I feel the thread name is not very suitable. I meant depression as a mental illness. When people say I have depression they are usually referring to an illness, not an emotion. Feeling depressed is real as much as feeling happy, but nobody says I have happiness and that's why I used this particular thread name.

So that being said, I still don't see it as an illness. You guys make it sound like it comes from nowhere, but how can it be? If you're truly enjoying the life, you just can't get chronically depressed. There has to be something wrong, even if you can't see it directly. Though I had this very interesting experience, where I started feeling anxious for seemingly no reason. Perhaps it was because of a traumatic event I had a half year ago? idk... It progressively got worse until I decided to undergo an exorcism and in a few minutes I was fixed. Strange. I guess I spend way too much time alone.

@quoting_mungo  fair enough, you might be right. But my point was anyone can be completely irrational, genuinely believing this crazy mental state will last forever, despite being perfectly healthy. It's just what comes with being human.

@Simo , it's great you decided to stop taking antidepressant. Only a very small part of those neurotransmitters and located in a brain, most of it is in a body playing important roles. When antidepressants are taken they literally messes your body. What makes me furious is when they claim drugs are the answer, I know not all of you do, but I still see plenty believing this pseudoscience crap. Psychiatry isn't a legit science. They try to make it like it, but the fundamental theories are just impossible to confirm. Antidepressants are like shooting in the dark, first they make a mess out of your brain, secondly some people enjoy those effects, which vary from person to person, some don't, lastly we sprinkle some placebo on top and viola the magic pill was invented!
Valium as other benzos are an effective drug, because they work for pretty much everyone with very similar effects and instantly. I wish it was sold otc, many people could enjoy its relaxing properties, without getting intoxicated as they do with alcohol.

@nerdbat interestingly enough, antidepressants greatly increase the risk of committing suicide, it's actually so bad that the US government decided to put black box labels on antidepressants


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## modfox (Mar 10, 2017)

yes it is


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## WolfyJake (Mar 10, 2017)

I have chronic depression. To most of us it feels like it comes out of nowhere. I'm not sure what started it for me. But some days I just feel like a total loser who will never amount to anything in life, and I cry for a few hours, then fall asleep. And sometimes I just feel so damn sad, for no reason at all. And I'm pretty sure depression can be a serious mental illness. There doesn't have to be something wrong for me to feel incredibly down. I'm not going to say much more on this.


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## nerdbat (Mar 10, 2017)

> @nerdbat interestingly enough, antidepressants greatly increase the risk of committing suicide, it's actually so bad that the US government decided to put black box labels on antidepressants


Unmedicated use of antidepressants, that is - there are a lot of them, each for every little thing and with various  little results and side-effects. Even for professional psychiatrists, it may be hard to find the proper medication, and at least in my case, first couple of months they made different prescriptions to see what will work better - if you're just going to buy trendy thingies and pop them like candies, of course you're going to harm yourself, because, well, it's not how they work.

Either way, judging by all the text you've written above, I can only conclude that you're either joking/trolling, or being incredibly naive, considering your simple-minded approach to a rather complex problem, and severe lack of actual research to boot


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## Saiko (Mar 10, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> So that being said, I still don't see it as an illness. You guys make it sound like it comes from nowhere, but how can it be? If you're truly enjoying the life, you just can't get chronically depressed. There has to be something wrong, even if you can't see it directly.



No, it doesn't come from nowhere, yes there is something wrong, and yes we can see it. The existence of depression as a neurochemically caused illness is well known and not a topic of debate. The problem is that we don't know precisely how it is caused or how to reliably cure it, and that is a matter of scientific research that you are not qualified to conduct or meaningfully speculate about.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 10, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> You guys make it sound like it comes from nowhere, but how can it be? If you're truly enjoying the life, you just can't get chronically depressed. There has to be something wrong, even if you can't see it directly.


Depression _can_ come from virtually nowhere. It can also be triggered by e.g. a traumatic loss, or be caused by other conditions. In my case, the most likely cause of my depression is my anxiety disorder; going around with low-level ambient anxiety that peaked in specific situations for literally years just wore through all of my capability to grin and bear it. As a result, I don't have the stress tolerance I used to have, I don't experience enjoyment even doing things I know based on past experience I should enjoy, and I have trouble functioning at all without my SNRIs on board.



Aleksion said:


> When antidepressants are taken they literally messes your body. What makes me furious is when they claim drugs are the answer, I know not all of you do, but I still see plenty believing this pseudoscience crap. Psychiatry isn't a legit science. They try to make it like it, but the fundamental theories are just impossible to confirm. Antidepressants are like shooting in the dark, first they make a mess out of your brain, secondly some people enjoy those effects, which vary from person to person, some don't, lastly we sprinkle some placebo on top and viola the magic pill was invented!


Different medications working differently for different people does not mean their effect is not legitimate. I can't take Ibuprofen because it gives me headaches. That doesn't mean it might not be the primary choice of painkiller for someone else. Pain management is just one of _many_ areas of more physical medicine where one might have to do some trial and error to find what's most effective for the individual. I do better on my current meds than the SSRI I was on before, at a lower dosage relative to minimum/maximum for each drug. 

It's true that antidepressants aren't a magic solution that will fix everything. Most people need therapy as well. But therapy is more effective in combination with drugs, and the drugs can for many people be the difference between staying in bed all day and getting up in the morning. Do they work for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean that they can be dismissed as a bad idea across the board.



Aleksion said:


> @nerdbat interestingly enough, antidepressants greatly increase the risk of committing suicide, it's actually so bad that the US government decided to put black box labels on antidepressants


While suicidal ideation is a rare side effect of some antidepressants, the primary reason antidepressants increase the risk of a patient successfully committing suicide, especially early on in the regimen, is ironically the fact that they _work_. You take someone who's been feeling awful for a very long time, and maybe has been thinking about hurting themselves, but who hasn't had any drive to commit to that or any other activity, and then you give them something that helps bring them out of that state. Before they improve so much that they lose the suicidal thoughts, they find themselves able to actually take the stepp to cause themselves harm, which they didn't have the be-assed for previously. It's important to understand _why_ there's a correlation between someone starting on antidepressants and making an attempt to commit suicide, not just to note the correlation.


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## Aleksion (Mar 10, 2017)

@quoting_mungo sorry to hear about your long term condition. So antidepressants help you? Good, you're lucky to be one of those who respond positively. However don't you think they hinder the progress of getting better? I mean every time you take a pill you assure yourself that you're sick, healthy people don't need medicine. It's like identifying oneself with depression as if it was a part of you. I don't see how that could help



Saiko said:


>



Looking at this picture made me think, the depressed brain looks literally depressed. Very little is going inside it. So perhaps shaking the body up, you know get the blood flowing could help? But anyway, those scans say very little. They are highly inconsistent, hence not used in diagnosis of mental illness.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 10, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> However don't you think they hinder the progress of getting better? I mean every time you take a pill you assure yourself that you're sick, healthy people don't need medicine. It's like identifying oneself with depression as if it was a part of you. I don't see how that could help


I have poor enough memory I need to have a pill keeper with compartments for each day of the week, or I don't remember whether I've taken my meds any given day. The pills are something I spend literally about two minutes on in the morning, then don't think about; it's no more part of my identity than brushing your teeth is part of yours. (Assuming you're not someone whose self-worth actually hinges on how well they brush.)

More likely to remind me that I'm sick are things like needing to take a nap after spending time being social (because it exhausts me that much to be around most people).


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## Simo (Mar 10, 2017)

All in all, it still strikes me that antidepressant medication is at a very, very primitive stage. And they have so many negative side effects. I'm not saying they don't help some people, but for many, they can be an utterly terrifying thing to try. Having attempted maybe 6 SSRI/SNRI meds in the past, the psychiatrist I see every few months for meds had a frank talk about them, and mentioned that no, they don't work for a lot of people, and that also, some people never adjust or get used to them, and the side effects can get worse and not better. Also, many people never make it past the first week or so. He's been in practice for some 40 years, is nearing retirement, and has seen various fads in medications come and go, so it was a curious talk.

I recall when I tried these I explained to my mate how they would help 'balance' the chemicals in my brain, and he asked me: "Did they measure them?", and I thought: No, but that's an excellent question. No, they just takes guesses...if only they could measure them, in some more scientific way.

But what freaked me out the most, and seems to be the case more so with males than females were the sexual side effects: this was truly terrifying. It was like you could still manage to do things, but they didn't feel all that good. Like the were muffled, muted, or like you were struggling to actually 'feel' them they way you used to, but the sensations were off in the distance: this almost dissociate aspect of one of the body's most basic biological functions was too much; I value sensual pleasure almost like a religion, and these chemicals that upset the balance the way they did. I felt like very vital part of me had died.

What's even more baffling to me is they can't explain why this happens, nor can they do much to treat it. This sense of feelings being muted and muffled extended to other things as well: touch, taste, smell...it was like a layer of gauze hung between me and the world, and nothing seemed quite right.

~

Also, in the era since drug companies have been allowed to advertise prescription medications to the general public, there's been a sea change in terms of how people view such medications, crafted as much my Madison Avenue and Wall Street as science. Since the dawn of the Prozac era, the medicalization of depression, along with it's normalization have reduced much of the stigma: more people are being treated, and taking are more likely to try them, often simply fro their primary care doctor, and not via a psychiatrist.

I have often wondered: against this backdrop of Americans awash in Serotonin, why hasn't the suicide rate decreased? Instead, it's held quite steady, and even increased sharply among the middle aged. Some will argue that without such meds, it would be even higher, but if medical science is making such strident gains, then why has suicide remained such a common cause of death, even as more and more people seek treatment for depression?

~

I tend to think that these kinds of meds should be used after other approaches have been tried: therapy, changes in diet, exercise, and ruling out other medical factors. And while they may be indicated and helpful for some, I think they are generally over-prescribed, and in part, because advertising and business has suggested how wonderful they are, via ad after ad after ad, where you see people running through fields of flowers, fly fishing in rivers, and sitting out in the sunset, lounging on Adirondack chairs. But this is not the reality for many people; especially those who are struggling to get by, and I can't help but think that this is a disingenuous way to discuss potent, mind altering psychological medications: I don't find it ethical. Now, rather than a Dr. examining a patient and making an informed decision based on their own knowledge and experience, you have patients coming in, asking for this and that because they saw an ad on TV, or even have a coupon from a magazine. An odd state of affairs, but a good one if you're in the drug business.

~

I'm not trashing all use of meds, but I do feel they have been over-hyped, and that many people are given false hope that some magical combination of meds will help them, when there is a good chance that in fact, it will not.

There is that saying that depression is a treatable disease. True, But so's cancer and a lot of other things inbetween, and this does not mean you're going to necessarily enjoy all the side effects of said treatment.

~

Also, I've noted that classes of meds run in cycles of popularity, and villification: the 70s, the era of Benzodiazipines, and into the 80s, Tricyclate antidepressants, then this wave of SSRIs, then some SNRIs, one or two things like Wellbutrin playing on Dopamine, and a kind of zany flirtation with Antipsychotics. (I think of that creepy wind up doll ad for Abilify...were they trying to scare people on purpose?)

Again, I've found walking a lot, and eating healthy, seeing a talk therapist that I have a good relationship with, and and taking a low dose of Valium to have helped the most...but at bottom, I still think that therapy is often the key, and resolving various issues internally.


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## Alex K (Mar 10, 2017)

The question is not if depression is real but rather if it's fake


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## Jeniver (Mar 10, 2017)

Of course it's real. I've had it since 14.
Depression is better described as a lack of wantonness.
While depressed, you don't want to meet people, you don't want to eat food, or go outside. You don't want to be happy or get better. You don't even (really) want to die.
Escapism is all you have, but you don't really enjoy it. 

Sometimes I wish I were psychotic so I could live in a more interesting world than this one.
I could be tied to a soft room for all I care as long as I'm in some other fantasy world. 
This world is just so boring to me. So random, and uninspiring. And unfair.


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## Jeniver (Mar 10, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> I have poor enough memory I need to have a pill keeper with compartments for each day of the week, or I don't remember whether I've taken my meds any given day. The pills are something I spend literally about two minutes on in the morning, then don't think about; it's no more part of my identity than brushing your teeth is part of yours. (Assuming you're not someone whose self-worth actually hinges on how well they brush.)
> 
> More likely to remind me that I'm sick are things like needing to take a nap after spending time being social (because it exhausts me that much to be around most people).



Antidepressants in general are bullshit.

Depression is a complex pattern of neuron firing that feeds back into itself. You cannot change such a complex brain activity with a chemical dose. It's like trying to change how smoky water intricately swirls by adding a drop of detergent.
Sure, it changes the shape of the surface, but not in any controlled way. You're just breaking shit.


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## Alex K (Mar 10, 2017)

Jeniver said:


> Antidepressants in general are bullshit.
> 
> Depression is a complex pattern of neuron firing that feeds back into itself. You cannot change such a complex brain activity with a chemical dose. It's like trying to change how smoky water intricately swirls by adding a drop of detergent.
> Sure, it changes the shape of the surface, but not in any controlled way. You're just breaking shit.




Dont "depression medicine" give depression as a side effect anyway?


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2017)

Jeniver said:


> Antidepressants in general are bullshit.
> 
> Depression is a complex pattern of neuron firing that feeds back into itself. You cannot change such a complex brain activity with a chemical dose. It's like trying to change how smoky water intricately swirls by adding a drop of detergent.
> Sure, it changes the shape of the surface, but not in any controlled way. You're just breaking shit.


That's not a very good analogy. Depression generally involves a lack of one or more signal substances in the brain; antidepressants act to increase the levels of these substances to more normal levels. They are, note, treating the symptoms, not necessarily fixing the underlying problem. In that they have more in common with pain management than with e.g. antibiotics.

You are not obligated to take them, and if you can drag yourself out of depression without them, more power to you. But as someone who _is_ helped by them, I can say they most definitely are not bullshit. If I forget my meds, I feel like shit before the end of the day. Seeing as I don't remember whether I've taken them without checking my pill keeper, I think it's safe to say that's not a placebo effect.



Alex K said:


> Dont "depression medicine" give depression as a side effect anyway?


It's a low-frequency side effect of some antidepressants, yes. Something being a known side effect doesn't mean it will happen to everyone. Ibuprofen gives me headaches. Most people take ibuprofen to relieve (among other things) headaches. Similar principle; there's no one-size-fits-all solution.


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## Jeniver (Mar 11, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> That's not a very good analogy. Depression generally involves a lack of one or more signal substances in the brain; antidepressants act to increase the levels of these substances to more normal levels. They are, note, treating the symptoms, not necessarily fixing the underlying problem. In that they have more in common with pain management than with e.g. antibiotics.
> 
> You are not obligated to take them, and if you can drag yourself out of depression without them, more power to you. But as someone who _is_ helped by them, I can say they most definitely are not bullshit. If I forget my meds, I feel like shit before the end of the day. Seeing as I don't remember whether I've taken them without checking my pill keeper, I think it's safe to say that's not a placebo effect.
> 
> ...



Some people also feel like shit if they don't smoke a cigarette by the end of the day.
Just because antidepressants have withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean they do anything.
If anything, that makes them practical placebos with side effects of dependence.
And by the way, depression is not a lack of signal substance in the brain. That's such an outdated hypothesis now, it's about as relevant as the flip phone.
If that were the case, our serotonin-drenched depression population would've seen lower rates of suicide, more success, etc.
As a matter of fact, in the population of ages 35 to 60 in men, suicide has actually shot up 30% since 1999.
Antidepressants are an industry. They aren't going away because they're profitable, and their irrelevance to the complex neural activity of depression won't ever have an impact on how much they're sold.


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## pidge (Mar 11, 2017)

Jeniver said:


> Antidepressants in general are bullshit.
> 
> Depression is a complex pattern of neuron firing that feeds back into itself. You cannot change such a complex brain activity with a chemical dose. It's like trying to change how smoky water intricately swirls by adding a drop of detergent.
> Sure, it changes the shape of the surface, but not in any controlled way. You're just breaking shit.


I've struggled with anxiety and depression for a while and because of talk like this, I was hesitant to take anti depressants. But I started taking some recently, and I'm actually doing a lot better. I typically feel happier in the spring anyway, so I'm not sure if its the weather or the pills or a combination of both, but I'm defiantly not feeling any worse. Anti depressants don't work for everyone, but they can really help some people.


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## Jeniver (Mar 11, 2017)

pidge said:


> I've struggled with anxiety and depression for a while and because of talk like this, I was hesitant to take anti depressants. But I started taking some recently, and I'm actually doing a lot better. I typically feel happier in the spring anyway, so I'm not sure if its the weather or the pills or a combination of both, but I'm defiantly not feeling any worse. Anti depressants don't work for everyone, but they can really help some people.



They don't do anything for me at all. Been through 6 different now. And no, not all of them were SSRIs.
I also tried antipsychotics and got temporarily overweight. Stopped them and went back to healthy.


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## Alex K (Mar 11, 2017)

Well one time the Grandson fell into a depression n he's fine. It only cost him a wrist injury.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 11, 2017)

Jeniver said:


> Some people also feel like shit if they don't smoke a cigarette by the end of the day.
> Just because antidepressants have withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean they do anything.
> If anything, that makes them practical placebos with side effects of dependence.


I'm sorry you've not had luck with antidepressants, but completely dismissing their usefulness for people for whom they do work is not really helpful. Chalking up the effects of missing a dose to withdrawal makes very little sense seeing as those effects are, well... pretty much what I was going through unmedicated.


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## Julen (Mar 11, 2017)

Nah depression is not real. It's just an invention by the government to keep us controlled and oppress us so we do what they want us to do.







Seriously what the fuck kinda question is that


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## Aleksion (Mar 11, 2017)

pidge said:


> I've struggled with anxiety and depression for a while and because of talk like this, I was hesitant to take anti depressants.


Have you tried other natural methods? 


Jeniver said:


> They don't do anything for me at all. Been through 6 different now. And no, not all of them were SSRIs.
> I also tried antipsychotics and got temporarily overweight. Stopped them and went back to healthy.


omg hold your horses bro! You're only 18 and you already tried so many drugs. Be careful not to poison yourself beyond repair. They don't allow anyone under 21 to buy beer, because alcohol can easily damage growing body, but hand out hardcore drugs to children like it was nothing and the worst is you're told to use them everyday. 


quoting_mungo said:


> You are not obligated to take them, and if you can drag yourself out of depression without them, more power to you. But as someone who _is_ helped by them, I can say they most definitely are not bullshit. If I forget my meds, I feel like shit before the end of the day. Seeing as I don't remember whether I've taken them without checking my pill keeper, I think it's safe to say that's not a placebo effect.


A pill box? America's fashion. I'm still skeptical though. If you were taking them regularly for a long time, don't you think you had developed tolerance? 


Jeniver said:


> Of course it's real. I've had it since 14.
> Depression is better described as a lack of wantonness.
> While depressed, you don't want to meet people, you don't want to eat food, or go outside. You don't want to be happy or get better. You don't even (really) want to die.
> Escapism is all you have, but you don't really enjoy it.


Ah so you feel numb? Isn't that denationalization? Anyway go on the scariest roller coaster, it ought to bring those lost feelings back.


Julen said:


> Nah depression is not real. It's just an invention by the government to keep us controlled and oppress us so we do what they want us to do.


Actually it is like food supplements, you make them buy the product by telling your costumers what they want to hear and because everyone is so well educated nowadays, you sponsor biased research which supports your claims, so the product is scientifically proven. It's just business.


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## Saiko (Mar 11, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Anyway go on the scariest roller coaster, it ought to bring those lost feelings back.


And with this I declare the discussion with Aleksion futile. He has so little understanding of mental health with such a firm opinion that nothing will ever come of it.


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## Aleksion (Mar 11, 2017)

Saiko said:


> And with this I declare the discussion with Aleksion futile. He has so little understanding of mental health with such a firm opinion that nothing will ever come of it.



Who does understand it anyway?


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## Julen (Mar 11, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Actually it is like food supplements, you make them buy the product by telling your costumers what they want to hear and because everyone is so well educated nowadays, you sponsor biased research which supports your claims, so the product is scientifically proven. It's just business.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 12, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> A pill box? America's fashion. I'm still skeptical though. If you were taking them regularly for a long time, don't you think you had developed tolerance?


Hah, joke's on you; I'm Swedish. 

I highly doubt I was developing tolerance to my previous meds (they got changed because of side effects, with a side of hoping the ones I'm on now would work better on my anxiety), and even more so to my current ones. 

The whole "overmarketed" thing kind of falls apart given my nationality, too; I don't believe we allow advertising of prescription drugs here. At the very least I've seen very little, if any, of it, and none for antidepressants. I actually was highly hesitant when I started them, due to having a history of getting weird side effects from drugs (yay Ibuprofen headaches!), but while I do get some annoying side effects, they're far more tolerable than having absolutely zero drive and about as much energy.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 12, 2017)

I, to the contrary, can take five ibuprofen at a time. Which is why I take naproxen instead. Biodiversity in action...?


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## Aleksion (Mar 13, 2017)

Mandragoras said:


> I, to the contrary, can take five ibuprofen at a time. Which is why I take naproxen instead. Biodiversity in action...?



Nah more like an exception to the rule, very few people do not respond well to those drugs or get side effects, whereas not responding to antidepressants is a norm. Side effects from antidepressants aren't true side effects, they are more like what the medication does, I mean you don't complain you feel like shit when on chemo.

@quoting_mungo have you ever thought it could be just a placebo? If depression is purely a psychological condition then placebo can be very strong. You said if you forget your fix you feel bad by the end of the day, can I ask exactly which medication are you taking? Because some have a relatively short half-life, that is below 24h, so when you skip a dose, you start feeling like shit, because of withdrawals. If it is a long lasting antidepressant, then you have no physical reason to feel bad and what you're feeling could very likely be just in your head. That also brings a question about tolerance, if the body is depended on a certain drug, it has to be adjusted its internal biology to achieve homeostasis which mean the physical response to the drug is diminished. When you abruptly stop taking drugs, the balance is again thrown out of whack, hence experiencing what's known as withdrawals.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 13, 2017)

I saw the title, and I thought "Oh yeah. THIS ought to be good." As usual, I was not disappointed.


Aleksion said:


> Depression is perhaps the most widespread form of mental illness and I know a lot of people suffer from it in this fandom. It's an interesting topic to me, actually all forms of mental issues interests me, don't be shy if you have something different to add.


Okay, so you recognize that Depression exists. Good start, but it takes more than a mere concession to a good point make. And trust me, I'll be adding all right- I've seen the effects in people close to me, so you've got some real attention here.



Aleksion said:


> So is depression real? We all can feel sadness. Even I myself feel bummed sometimes. But it always goes away. Of course chronic sadness is not the only way depression manifests. There are many other symptoms, fatigue, lack of motivation, I'm not qualified to name them all. But I think they are just extensions of intense sadness anyway.  I've heard there are two main reasons why people get depressed:


No, you're not qualified. And here's another thought that never even crossed your mind: if you're not qualified to name all the symptoms, then you're most certainly not qualified to dismiss shit. However, much to my dismay, that's exactly what you're about to do.



Aleksion said:


> 1) _Something really bad happens_. But why not to just let go? Life goes on, things change, wounds heal up. But why people keep poking their wounds? They poke it for months, now it's all infected, puss is everywhere. You catch my drift, don't you? Thinking about it doesn't do anything good. It blows my mind when people say, I want to talk about my depression. Oh god, seriously!?


WOW. First point, and you're already victim blaming- great job :V. Tell me, if you never get depressed, what's your secret? Do you avoid life altogether? Because that's not living; that's a worse fate than suicide. Great job, bro. You need a life so bad, that you openly question other people's shit and dismiss what's happening to them so you can feel better about yourself. Grow a pair and learn that you're not the alpha anything.



Aleksion said:


> 2) _Your life is shit_. Well, what did you expect? Being stressed 24/7 is bad. It seems a lot people forget a body isn't the only thing which needs to be taken care of. What can you do? Ask people in Africa why they don't have mass depression epidemic, despite not even having clean drinking water. Different attitude!


When you get to your second point, and you're already out of reasons so you resort to Fallacy Ad Hominem. Real classy, bro :V. You don't seem to understand what happens in the brain that causes Depression, and you inadvertently choose an example that helps to REFUTE your ill-conceited argument that Depression is fake. Newsflash, bucko: Depression is real, and it kicks your ass if it hits your life. Those African people you love to refer to? They have hope, which is something a person affected by Depression is chemically incapable of experiencing. Their view is constricted to a tiny little bubble of despair, because their brain is rendered incapable of producing the chemicals necessary to have hope, joy, or any other positive emotion. And it SUCKS, so they'd rather be dead in some cases. What you need is a last, god-send argument that is hella strong and irrefutable, which I don't see following this.



Aleksion said:


> Wait, but did I just say depression is real myself? *TL;DR *Depression is the same as being fat, so yes it is real, but it is caused by bad habits and poor life choices alone, just as obesity. It's purely a psychological condition. Everything is alright with your head, you're not sick, you just need to live a mentally healthier lifestyle and all be good.


Go fuck yourself, sir. Being fat is nothing like being depressed: namely, the lack of a choice in the matter. Being depressed is more similar to being rear-ended in your car while stopped at a red light: you don't wake up and say "I'm going to end up clinically depressed today,"; it just happens.

And no, if you read the DSM-V then you would know that Depression is real in every sense of the word- even medical professionals recognize it's existence. You obviously haven't done any research, and you are clearly an entitled brat seeking to gain undeserved attention for yourself by shaming those that have REAL, ACTUAL problems. You resort to insults, and poorly constructed arguments that make me question just how much of a brain you actually have.

Nice try, and be sure to do some research next time if you want to gain my respect.

Bonus note:


Aleksion said:


> When antidepressants are taken they literally messes your body. What makes me furious is when they claim drugs are the answer, I know not all of you do, but I still see plenty believing this pseudoscience crap. Psychiatry isn't a legit science. They try to make it like it, but the fundamental theories are just impossible to confirm.


Look, guys! We found Dr. Temperance Brennan from the Jeffersonian Institute! Sorry, Bones, but Sweets is right on this one (please tell me someone else gets this...)


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 13, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Nah more like an exception to the rule, very few people do not respond well to those drugs or get side effects, whereas not responding to antidepressants is a norm. Side effects from antidepressants aren't true side effects, they are more like what the medication does, I mean you don't complain you feel like shit when on chemo.


You... may want to have a look into the definition of a side effect. Plenty of people do complain about feeling like shit when on chemo. My maternal grandmother declined chemo when she was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer of the bones because chemo had made her _that ill_ the first time around. Medicine is, a lot of the time, about balancing therapeutic and side effects, and in the case of chemo, well... feeling like shit may be preferable for many (though not all) patients for whom chemo is indicated - that doesn't mean feeling like shit isn't a (common) side effect. There are also rare people who do _not_ feel awful when being treated with chemotherapy.



Aleksion said:


> @quoting_mungo have you ever thought it could be just a placebo? If depression is purely a psychological condition then placebo can be very strong.


As I've previously said, there's absolutely no logic to assuming it's a placebo effect when I have trouble remembering whether I've taken my meds an hour later. Between that and other indications, yeah, I feel I can be pretty confident it's not just a placebo. 



Aleksion said:


> You said if you forget your fix you feel bad by the end of the day, can I ask exactly which medication are you taking? Because some have a relatively short half-life, that is below 24h, so when you skip a dose, you start feeling like shit, because of withdrawals. If it is a long lasting antidepressant, then you have no physical reason to feel bad and what you're feeling could very likely be just in your head.


No, you cannot; you've not shown me or other people with depression nearly enough respect to ask for details about my medical treatment. 
I _know_ the meds I'm on have a short half-life, and that on the prior ones I wasn't feeling a missed dose much. That does not, in itself, indicate that experiencing symptoms of depression and anxiety if I miss a dose is due to withdrawal, any more than experiencing pain when one doesn't take one's pain medication after a wisdom tooth extraction indicates withdrawal. (I am aware that particularly some strong painkillers do have 'pain' as a possible withdrawal symptom; what I'm talking about is a recurrence of the pain the medication is indicated for.) 

I've literally dealt with this shit nearly half my life. You weren't old enough to visit most sites on the Internet (hello, COPPA) when my anxiety started getting out of control. It brought depression to the party. I mean, I'm happy for you that you've obviously not had to go through the utter bullshit it is to try to live with chronic depression, and to hear people around you posit that if you just did this or that you'd be fine, and why aren't you well yet, but that is what I'm living, and many other people both on and off this forum, as well. And no, I am, most of the time, not fucking sad, and I never was. Depression was _never_ about sadness for me, and suggesting that it is because that's _your_ theory so is pretty rude.

You know that saying, that there have to be bad days for us to know that the good days are good? Depression is kind of like that, except there are no good days; the flip side of it. So everything goes kinda gray. Same-ey. There are, at best, bad and worse days. A "good" day for me is a day when I manage to cook for myself and don't have to take a 1-2 hour nap afterwards.



Crimson_Steel17 said:


> Being fat is nothing like being depressed: namely, the lack of a choice in the matter. Being depressed is more similar to being rear-ended in your car while stopped at a red light: you don't wake up and say "I'm going to end up clinically depressed today,"; it just happens.


To be completely fair, as my husband pointed out to me there _are_ conditions that result in obesity that is largely out of the individual's control (metabolic disorders etc.). However, I do not get the impression this is the sense of "fat" @Aleksion was going for. 



Crimson_Steel17 said:


> We found Dr. Temperance Brennan from the Jeffersonian Institute! Sorry, Bones, but Sweets is right on this one (please tell me someone else gets this...)


Off the top of my head I believe Bones still acknowledges mental illness (been a while since I last watched). She just doesn't believe in the legitimacy of all of Sweets's theorizing and "you're doing this because of that". And _that_ part of Psychology isn't a very exact science at the best of times.


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## -Praydeth- (Mar 13, 2017)

I broke from the grip of depression I know for certain it is real. Tell the story of how i did it & why i was depressed would take multiple days to fully type out and let anyone believe me.

Medications can rarely ever actually help anyone at all. For the most part they actually hurt people. *There is a way to not feel depressed you must find it in other people aswell as yourself not........ on the coutertop*.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 13, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> To be completely fair, as my husband pointed out to me there _are_ conditions that result in obesity that is largely out of the individual's control (metabolic disorders etc.). However, I do not get the impression this is the sense of "fat" @Aleksion was going for.
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head I believe Bones still acknowledges mental illness (been a while since I last watched). She just doesn't believe in the legitimacy of all of Sweets's theorizing and "you're doing this because of that". And _that_ part of Psychology isn't a very exact science at the best of times.


No, I don't think @Aleksion was going for any impression that involved an actual medical diagnosis... He seems like the kind that assumes it's all "Oh, I guess *insert name here* shouldn't have eaten all that McDonalds" and never "Maybe the Prednisone saving her life had unintended side effects"...

Although, I haven't finished _Bones_ yet- I'm only in about Season 3. I was just trying to make a joke out of @Aleksion being so deluded that he couldn't do any research and had to TL;DR his own argument xD


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## Saiko (Mar 13, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> @quoting_mungo have you ever thought it could be just a placebo? If depression is purely a psychological condition then placebo can be very strong.


You do realize that they test for that during clinical trials before they start selling the drug, right? Otherwise they can't market it as treating  the condition.

At this point you're being willfully ignorant.


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## Aleksion (Mar 13, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> He seems like the kind that assumes it's all "Oh, I guess *insert name here* shouldn't have eaten all that McDonalds" and never "Maybe the Prednisone saving her life had unintended side effects"...



To get fat you have to constantly consume more energy than you expend. Your pills or some very rare genetic disorder won't bend the fundamental rules of physics. Obesity is a choice.



Saiko said:


> You do realize that they test for that during clinical trials before they start selling the drug, right? Otherwise they can't market it as treating the condition.
> 
> At this point you're being willfully ignorant.



Yes they do have to be tasted. But so what? FDA is in their pockets. Just google antidepressant placebo.

@quoting_mungo so as I understand you have been dealing with anxiety and depression for a very long time. Pills don't seem to work well, everything is still gray and empty, drugs just make it a bit more manageable. You know it sounds kinda of bad. Are you planning to live like this till you die, chugging down pills just to survive to live another shitty day? People do get over those feelings, it is possible, you can too. If you stop considering it as a chemical or other physical problem, you would see you have many more options.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 13, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> To get fat you have to constantly consume more energy than you expend. Your pills or some very rare genetic disorder won't bend the fundamental rules of physics. Obesity is a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@quoting_mungo can one block OP from his own thread? This man is beyond reason...

Also, OP can shut up any time now. You clearly don't know shit of what you speak about.
"Have a nice day, asshole" -Arnold Schwarzenegger


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 13, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Yes they do have to be tasted. But so what? FDA is in their pockets. Just google antidepressant placebo.


The US FDA doesn't have nearly as much sway as you seem to think outside of the US. And antidepressants are, surprise surprise, approved for use outside of the US, too. 



Aleksion said:


> Your pills or some very rare genetic disorder won't bend the fundamental rules of physics. Obesity is a choice.


I can't cite the specific conditions off the top of my head, but there are in fact genetic/metabolic disorders that can have you dying of malnutrition if you attempt to restrict caloric intake to the point necessary to maintain a "normal" weight. There is also a large number of drugs that will predispose the body to weight gain. Your idea of "choice" here is... not healthy.



Aleksion said:


> Are you planning to live like this till you die, chugging down pills just to survive to live another shitty day?


Hopefully not. Life on meds is vastly preferable to life off of them, however. Unless you're seriously suggesting I should off myself to avoid having more of these shitty days, in which case I'll be happy to give you a vacation from the forums. :V But yes, I've been dealing with anxiety and depression for a very long time. Pills are not a magic cure, which I've never claimed that they are, but they make a huge difference in quality of life _for me_. I know other people who have similar experiences. The fact that I _maybe_ have one or two days a month where I have bothersome levels of ambient anxiety, instead of maybe 3-4 days a month _without_ it makes a _huge_ difference.

All I'm asking for here, really, is that if I'm willing to respect the experiences of people for whom drugs didn't work, which I am, I'm shown the same courtesy. If I want someone to give me the "mind over matter" "just don't give in to depression" spiel, I'll go talk to my dad.


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## Saiko (Mar 13, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Yes they do have to be tasted. But so what? FDA is in their pockets. Just google antidepressant placebo.


Okay actually I'm foot-in-mouthing a bit now.

@quoting_mungo, do you mind giving me some feedback on this? As far as I can tell, it's a reliable source; but you're more familiar with the topic.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 13, 2017)

Saiko said:


> Okay actually I'm foot-in-mouthing a bit now.
> 
> @quoting_mungo, do you mind giving me some feedback on this? As far as I can tell, it's a reliable source; but you're more familiar with the topic.


It's hardly news that antidepressants make more of a difference for more severe depression, nor that they work better in combination with therapy. Most of the studies they've reviewed seem to concern short-term trials, which I'm a bit wary of based on my own experience. It's also not news that many people whose condition improves on them will need to try more than one drug before finding what works best for them. This isn't something drug trials are geared towards, and far as I can tell the article is primarily based on drug trials.

(I also don't offhand know the particular rating scale they used for assessing effectiveness, so I can't say how prone it would be to skew results - one such scale I've seen only assigns "points" in one section if one sleeps less than 8 hours/night, if memory serves. Let's posit that someone is sleeping 14 hours/night because depression. They'll score as "not depressed" on that section of the assessment scale. Then they start on an antidepressant, and happen to be one of the unlucky folks who experience insomnia as a side effect. Suddenly they're sleeping 6 hours/night and will score as MORE depressed on that section of the assessment. This is part of why I hate self-assessment questionaires.)

If people want to try a pure-therapy approach, or natural remedies (I had some positive effect from taking roseroot, myself), or exercise, or diet, or acupuncture, or whatever else, they're welcome to. I very much think that, within reason, you should do what makes you feel best. For me, so far, that seems to be "take my goddamn meds", so that's what I'm doing. If you're not comfortable taking meds, by all means discuss that with your doctor.

Literally all I'm asking when it comes to discussing antidepressants, is that people don't condemn them across the board. Say they didn't work for you, if that's the case, or say that you don't believe in them personally, but don't outright advise against them. I know too many people for whom they've made a positive difference to find it anything but offensive when I see people worried about depression being told "never take antidepressants."


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 13, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> Might be derailing, but, ironically the two things flying on my facebook feeds right now are about the new healthcare plan and some "fat acceptance" stuff.  The obesity epidemic in the United States is estimated to cost taxpayers somewhere around 200+ billion dollars, while the controversial healthcare changes by Trump might save around 330 billion. So it's been on my mind today.
> 
> The obesity-malnutrition paradox is caused by empty calories, eg when Coke is cheaper than clean water. I blame the "fat-free" fad, turned so much stuff into empty calories. Only fats and protein calories are counted in hunger regulation, and only macro-nutrients contribute to calories, and micro-nutrients are very widely available in more supplements than you ever really need. Steroids and other drugs, that also give increased water retention which a lot of people confuse for weight gain, will increase appetite as well, yes. Although I cannot find the particular rare genetic disorder you're referring to, such things for the vast majority of normal cases does not handwave personal responsibility says the guy with the drinking problem. I've actually gotten myself back within a "normal" BMI, still going down. Alcohol increases appetite, I had developed some bad eating habits on top of the empty calories. I just made of point of being a stickler for counting calories (planned meals FTW), just dealing with being hungry because I know a drug and erroneous sensory is responsible for the sensation, and I actually followed through with the New Years resolution of a gym membership to burn the empty calories since I refuse to give up drinking.  On the flip is a buddy of mine with an intestinal complication that keeps him from absorbing much nutrients from his food, so he's perpetually underweight and at risk of malnutrition at all times, so he relies on a lot of nutritional supplements to stay healthy.
> There is no converse. Calories always come from macro-nutrients. There might be a few rare disorders out there that somehow waste or require abnormal amounts of fat/protein/carbs but I've never heard of it. Drugs are altering your sense of hunger, not caloric requirements.
> ...


THANK YOU. I can't say how many times I've actually seen someone recognize the impossibility of a norm, but I can count the ones I remember on one hand. I would like to add the 3rd option out there, and that is the side of effects of some prescription medications (*cough cough* Prednisone *cough*) that can cause unexplained weight gain in anyone without warning. Unfortunately, the only way to combat this side effect is to stop the medication which (this is where my personal experience with the obesity bit comes in, although the depression was from a close friend of mine) is what's keeping my relative alive- and that's not an option if we don't want her hospitalized for an otherwise untreatable, unidentifiable ailment. I know that there are other medications with the same side effect, but that's the one I've seen firsthand


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 14, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> Steroid. Increased hunger and water retention. Not a "third option". Still sucks. Water retention is damn near exponential if you've already got some fat on you, since you will retain that much more. Overweight people will magically lose 30 lbs once they're off steroids without changing anything and assume the drug magically put on and took off fat.


Y'know what? Fuck off. It's a side effect, that's what I was getting at, and if your "bootstrap" argument is so precious to you that you can't recognize what happens to others then fuck off


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 14, 2017)

Julen said:


> Seriously what the fuck kinda question is that


You know it's a sad day in history when people honestly believe that depression is something others make up just to feel like special snowflakes...


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## Deleted member 82554 (Mar 14, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> Then there's the people who say "hah depression doesn't exist" but on the rare occasion they kind of feel down it's "I'm depressed".


Those people clearly don't understand the difference between being depressed, and actual depression. Real depression is something you don't just "get over", and more often than not, drags on throughout the duration of one's life...


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## Kezi Avdiivka (Mar 14, 2017)

Medi student here currently studying Neuroscience.

Yes depression is real. See, when you undergo a fuckton of stress, your body begins to burn off things called Neurotransmitters. You know these as Dopamine, Serotonin and Norepinephrine. These chemicals are made up of things called Amino Acids. Serotonin is made from 5-HTP which is made from L-Tryptophan, Dopamine and Norepinephrine are made from L-Tyrosine. To get these amino acids you need to eat protein, about 50-60 grams a day. If you don't do this here what happens...

Your body is going to get what it needs to survive no matter what, it'll sacrifice organs just to conserve energy. If you don't have enough dopamine or norep and you undergo a very stressful, life altering event? Your body is programmed to literally salvage these neurotransmitters from actual brain cells and overtime, the "survival of the fittest" begins to call. We call this, neurodegeration. If it gets to a point where it is a constant event, the brain will begin to lose it's ability to regulate the transmitters. This causes mental illness, causes people to think horrid thoughts when depressed. And because the human body is programmed NEVER to "Devolve" past a certain point. Something scary happens...

The body separates from the mind and literally self-terminates without a person really deciding if they want too or not. It literally tricks them into thinking the right choice is to off yourself.

Rebuilding the receptors are a bitch too.

I can literally talk for hours about this but I am tired hehe


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 14, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> I wouldn't phrase it "_Obesity is a personal choice_" so much as "_Not being fat is a fuckload of work and suffering_". Yes, drugs may increase said suffering in this regard as a side effect. I hate "bootstrap" arguments, but as somebody that actually put in the suffering, I have to give it.


That's a more realistic way of putting it, yes, even if I'd say some of your conclusion is a bit harsh. For people who have been dealt shitty cards, that suffering may be disproportionate to the potential gain, and it's hardly fair to them to assume that their obesity is due to laziness. As a more... indirect possibility, I'd also consider chronic fatigue or other "spoon" conditions. (If you're unfamiliar with The Spoon Theory, the TL;DR is that it's a method of explaining/concretizing the constant energy budgeting people with chronic illnesses have to do.) Even if caloric intake can be healthily restricted, for some of these people it'd likely require outside support, which not everyone has access to.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 14, 2017)

Kezi Avdiivka said:


> Medi student here currently studying Neuroscience.
> 
> Yes depression is real. See, when you undergo a fuckton of stress, your body begins to burn off things called Neurotransmitters. You know these as Dopamine, Serotonin and Norepinephrine. These chemicals are made up of things called Amino Acids. Serotonin is made from 5-HTP which is made from L-Tryptophan, Dopamine and Norepinephrine are made from L-Tyrosine. To get these amino acids you need to eat protein, about 50-60 grams a day. If you don't do this here what happens...
> 
> ...


What's sad is even though I know every word you used, and I understand all of what you said, I'm still confused as fuck... Thank you, Latin. Thank you.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 14, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> I subscribe to the "Ego Depletion" theory, so yes "laziness" as being relative I think applies to the majority of people. Specifically with drugs and food, the path of least resistance is often a black hole: it only gets harder to climb out of. Finishing my degree I'd become well overweight and gaining, so either I took charge immediately or let it become a bigger problem later hue hue hue. Of course, no longer cramming 80 hour weeks, getting a full nights sleep every night, and actually having any free time helped considerably.
> 
> 
> Literally what. Now I'm digging for articles on neurodegeneration and depression. I had no idea they were linked.


It's amazing what one can learn when (s)he opens his/her mind- too bad OP couldn't follow suit


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## aloveablebunny (Mar 14, 2017)

Depression is very real, and overcoming it is not as easy as "snapping out of it".


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## Aleksion (Mar 14, 2017)

aloveablebunny said:


> Depression is very real, and overcoming it is not as easy as "snapping out of it".



Never suggested it's easy.



Kezi Avdiivka said:


> Yes depression is real. See, when you undergo a fuckton of stress, your body begins to burn off things called Neurotransmitters. You know these as Dopamine, Serotonin and Norepinephrine. These chemicals are made up of things called Amino Acids. Serotonin is made from 5-HTP which is made from L-Tryptophan, Dopamine and Norepinephrine are made from L-Tyrosine. To get these amino acids you need to eat protein, about 50-60 grams a day. If you don't do this here what happens...



It's true if you don't get enough protein and fat (saturated fat included) bad things stars happening in your body. However if this was the case why don't they just prescribe depressed patients with protein shakes? While I'm not saying malnutrition can't happen in a modern world, it's extremely rare.



Rykhoteth said:


> I wouldn't phrase it "_Obesity is a personal choice_" so much as "_Not being fat is a fuckload of work and suffering_"



But is saying no to that juicy chocolate doughnut worth better quality of life? Anyone can enjoy a pack of cigarettes a day, but don't complain how unfair the world is when you get lung cancer. Besides by getting fatter you don't burn much more calories, so not gaining fat for a 150lb person is not much harder than to 350lb of pure lard to not get any fatter, especially if we take into account fatty's lack of physical activity at such weight. 



quoting_mungo said:


> If people want to try a pure-therapy approach, or natural remedies (I had some positive effect from taking roseroot, myself), or exercise, or diet, or acupuncture, or whatever else, they're welcome to. I very much think that, within reason, you should do what makes you feel best. For me, so far, that seems to be "take my goddamn meds", so that's what I'm doing. If you're not comfortable taking meds, by all means discuss that with your doctor.
> 
> Literally all I'm asking when it comes to discussing antidepressants, is that people don't condemn them across the board. Say they didn't work for you, if that's the case, or say that you don't believe in them personally, but don't outright advise against them. I know too many people for whom they've made a positive difference to find it anything but offensive when I see people worried about depression being told "never take antidepressants."



If people can successful cure themselves without the use of medicine, doesn't that mean depression has no physical cause and it's just all in your head? I mean if you have a brain tumor, you can't get better without removing it first.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 14, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Never suggested it's easy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@quoting_mungo I say it again: this man is beyond reason. Can we PLEASE send him off so we can have an infinitely more informed discussion?


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## Aleksion (Mar 14, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> @quoting_mungo I say it again: this man is beyond reason. Can we PLEASE send him off so we can have an infinitely more informed discussion?



You could add something valuable to the discussion instead


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 14, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> You could add something valuable to the discussion instead


I have tried... you are immune to logic and reason. For this reason, we must resort to C-4 and AP Rounds- you must be eliminated from the discussion to get anywhere logical


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## Andromedahl (Mar 14, 2017)

Crimson_Steel17 said:


> @quoting_mungo I say it again: this man is beyond reason. Can we PLEASE send him off so we can have an infinitely more informed discussion?


Honestly when you find yourself feeling miffed at a thread the best thing to do is to just sit back and admire from a distance.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 14, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> But is saying no to that juicy chocolate doughnut worth better quality of life? Anyone can enjoy a pack of cigarettes a day, but don't complain how unfair the world is when you get lung cancer. Besides by getting fatter you don't burn much more calories, so not gaining fat for a 150lb person is not much harder than to 350lb of pure lard to not get any fatter, especially if we take into account fatty's lack of physical activity at such weight.


You're demonstrating a remarkable lack of insight, here. Not everyone that is overweight subsists on junk food and pastries, nor is every person's metabolism created equally, even short of actual metabolic disorders. I've known stick-thin people who could pile away food without gaining a pound. Hell, research is pretty clear that moderately active overweight people are actually healthier in many ways than completely sedentary people whose body weight falls within the "normal" range.



Aleksion said:


> If people can successful cure themselves without the use of medicine, doesn't that mean depression has no physical cause and it's just all in your head? I mean if you have a brain tumor, you can't get better without removing it first.


By your logic, the common cold, UTIs, and Type II diabetes are all just in your head, as well. Because all of them CAN get better without the use of medicine (and indeed, there's fuck-all medicine available to cure colds). Not all illnesses, not even all chronic illnesses, require surgical or chemical intervention in all cases, but that doesn't mean that some sufferers may not benefit from that intervention. 



Crimson_Steel17 said:


> @quoting_mungo I say it again: this man is beyond reason. Can we PLEASE send him off so we can have an infinitely more informed discussion?


Being ignorant is not against the rules, just unfortunate. You're welcome to have an informed discussion with other people in the thread. If his responses bother you, just ignore them, and read the responses you find worthwhile.


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## Honey Lavender; (Mar 14, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> You're demonstrating a remarkable lack of insight, here. Not everyone that is overweight subsists on junk food and pastries, nor is every person's metabolism created equally, even short of actual metabolic disorders. I've known stick-thin people who could pile away food without gaining a pound. Hell, research is pretty clear that moderately active overweight people are actually healthier in many ways than completely sedentary people whose body weight falls within the "normal" range.
> 
> 
> By your logic, the common cold, UTIs, and Type II diabetes are all just in your head, as well. Because all of them CAN get better without the use of medicine (and indeed, there's fuck-all medicine available to cure colds). Not all illnesses, not even all chronic illnesses, require surgical or chemical intervention in all cases, but that doesn't mean that some sufferers may not benefit from that intervention.
> ...


Okay... I still wish there was a way to ensure that at least _some_ threads were more informed than others- but that'll do for now.


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## Aleksion (Mar 15, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> By your logic, the common cold, UTIs, and Type II diabetes are all just in your head, as well. Because all of them CAN get better without the use of medicine (and indeed, there's fuck-all medicine available to cure colds). Not all illnesses, not even all chronic illnesses, require surgical or chemical intervention in all cases, but that doesn't mean that some sufferers may not benefit from that intervention.



Cold, utis and all sorts of illnesses are caused by foreign organisms which immune system underestimated and thus they got out of control. The mechanism in which they work is very different from mental illness. Type 2 diabetes is more alike, which is basically insensitivity or failure of production of insulin. Primary cause is unhealthy lifestyle. However diabetes is measurable and symptoms can be instantly reversed by giving insulin if there is not enough of it. Of course maybe we just don't understand depression, so we don't know how to cure it. 



quoting_mungo said:


> You're demonstrating a remarkable lack of insight, here. Not everyone that is overweight subsists on junk food and pastries, nor is every person's metabolism created equally, even short of actual metabolic disorders. I've known stick-thin people who could pile away food without gaining a pound. Hell, research is pretty clear that moderately active overweight people are actually healthier in many ways than completely sedentary people whose body weight falls within the "normal" range.



To be honest it sounds like someone's failed dieting attempt. Slow, fast metabolism is a myth. The energy has to go somewhere, thin people either move a lot or eat less and as Rykhoteth already pointed out it can be only by a few oreos a day. No one gets obese overnight, it's a long process of eating just slightly too much than you need. Over years those calories add up.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 15, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> Just googled this to double check since I hardly believe it despite remembering this, but yes, fidgeting nonstop can burn a couple hundred extra calories per day as well. Their dayjob as well can make a huge difference too. Anyway, same point I just made, it's generally a more gradual thing than the few times you hang out and see him eat a whole pizza.





Aleksion said:


> To be honest it sounds like someone's failed dieting attempt. Slow, fast metabolism is a myth. The energy has to go somewhere, thin people either move a lot or eat less and as Rykhoteth already pointed out it can be only by a few oreos a day. No one gets obese overnight, it's a long process of eating just slightly too much than you need. Over years those calories add up.


Sure, habits can add up, and I'm not contesting that. The primary individual I have in mind was to the best of my recollection fairly active, but not absurdly so, and she was, well... borderline bony. She was friends with my "sister" (living with a family abroad), and consistently, every time I saw her eat, she'd pile away at least as much as my "sister" did, often more. To the best of my knowledge the two of them had very similar activity levels, and my "sister" was not nearly as thin as she was. While not as extreme, her mother was also quite thin. How readily people's bodies pile on the pounds definitely has a genetic factor. (You'll note that article is quite extensively sourced.)



Aleksion said:


> Cold, utis and all sorts of illnesses are caused by foreign organisms which immune system underestimated and thus they got out of control. The mechanism in which they work is very different from mental illness. Type 2 diabetes is more alike, which is basically insensitivity or failure of production of insulin. Primary cause is unhealthy lifestyle. However diabetes is measurable and symptoms can be instantly reversed by giving insulin if there is not enough of it. Of course maybe we just don't understand depression, so we don't know how to cure it.


You're missing the point - _you_ said that something being manageable without drugs was evidence of it not being a legitimate medical problem. I'm merely illustrating how ridiculous that conclusion is. There are plenty of conditions, regardless of their cause, that in some individuals may be manageable without traditional medical intervention, while others do need meds to cope for whatever reason. As well, there's what Rykhoteth said, depression is not a single monolith, so just like cancer, a single one-size-fits-all cure is unlikely.


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## Kezi Avdiivka (Mar 17, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Never suggested it's easy.
> 
> It's true if you don't get enough protein and fat (saturated fat included) bad things stars happening in your body. However if this was the case why don't they just prescribe depressed patients with protein shakes? While I'm not saying malnutrition can't happen in a modern world, it's extremely rare.



Like I said, trying to rebuild braincells is a bitch. The protienstuff only replaces what is used up in the storage vesicles of a neurotransmitter and is very critical in treatment, but doctors are mostly pill pushers nowadays. Basically anti-depressants are a krutch for someone until they begin learning how to live life again via therapy and via better diet. You can also force the body to rebuild new dopamine/serotonin receptors by utilizing serotonin and dopamine antagonists. They reduce the output of chemicals by deactivating the receptors, in response the body grows more receptors.


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## Kezi Avdiivka (Mar 17, 2017)

Rykhoteth said:


> I subscribe to the "Ego Depletion" theory, so yes "laziness" as being relative I think applies to the majority of people. Specifically with drugs and food, the path of least resistance is often a black hole: it only gets harder to climb out of. Finishing my degree I'd become well overweight and gaining, so either I took charge immediately or let it become a bigger problem later hue hue hue. Of course, no longer cramming 80 hour weeks, getting a full nights sleep every night, and actually having any free time helped considerably.
> 
> 
> Literally what. Now I'm digging for articles on neurodegeneration and depression. I had no idea they were linked.



Yeah, when you constantly burn off neurotransmitters and you don't replace them via diet, yer gonna become depressed real quick.


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## Aleksion (Mar 17, 2017)

Kezi Avdiivka said:


> Yeah, when you constantly burn off neurotransmitters and you don't replace them via diet, yer gonna become depressed real quick.



I think that's really oversimplifying things


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## Anferney (Mar 17, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> I think that's really oversimplifying things


This is coming from someone who says that burning something alive is a mercy killing. Holy f'ing shit.


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## Anferney (Mar 17, 2017)

I mean, seriously. Did anyone read the OPs post in that Facebook cruelty thread (which was locked for some reason)?

And this guy's asking if depression is real???


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## Aleksion (Mar 17, 2017)

Anferney said:


> This is coming from someone who says that burning something alive is a mercy killing. Holy f'ing shit.



Small creatures heat up really fast and the rats brain was toasted within seconds. He could held the torch even closer, but obviously he wanted to get a good shot instead. I'm not sure what does it have to do with this thread though


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 17, 2017)

Yeah, we are not discussing that thread here (or anywhere else) - it was closed for a reason.


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## Kezi Avdiivka (Mar 18, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> I think that's really oversimplifying things



It really....really...really...reallyreallyreally is im fucking serious.

You burn off your fuel? Brains gonna salvage dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine neurons and send the chemicals to other more neurons to keep them going. It's a survival mechanism, just like how your body will begin eating it's fat stores when you don't have anything to eat.


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## Mandragoras (Mar 18, 2017)

Kezi Avdiivka said:


> It really....really...really...reallyreallyreally is im fucking serious.
> 
> You burn off your fuel? Brains gonna salvage dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine neurons and send the chemicals to other more neurons to keep them going. It's a survival mechanism, just like how your body will begin eating it's fat stores when you don't have anything to eat.


The mechanics of starvation and how it ultimately kills you are viscerally horrifying in ways I find difficult to properly articulate; my mom told me about them when I was fairly young, as she is a recovering anorexic and nearly died from it as a teenager, and it stuck with me. I'm not surprised that the brain does similar things, but ye gods, that's an unsettling concept.


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## Aleksion (Mar 18, 2017)

Kezi Avdiivka said:


> It really....really...really...reallyreallyreally is im fucking serious.
> 
> You burn off your fuel? Brains gonna salvage dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine neurons and send the chemicals to other more neurons to keep them going. It's a survival mechanism, just like how your body will begin eating it's fat stores when you don't have anything to eat.



But doesn't the body get its protein from breaking down skeletal muscles? Also I don't see from the evolutionary standpoint how getting depressed and loosing will to live as soon as you don't find food would had helped us to survive.

ps I'm not an expert, but I have heard insulin prevents muscle and fat breakdown and elevated insulin levels are caused by constantly eating sugary foods to which our ancestors did not have access. I could be wrong here though. If it was true, then again what you put in your mouth is your choice, thus depression is a choice


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 18, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> If it was true, then again what you put in your mouth is your choice, thus depression is a choice


That conclusion is incredibly rude, and victim-blaming. First off, even IF diet was a surefire way to avoid falling into depression (which is highly doubtful), the only way it can be called a choice in any meaningful way is if the individual is aware, or could reasonably be expected to be aware, of the consequences. If someone has a deathly severe peanut allergy that they're blissfully unaware of, and dies from anaphylactic shock after eating a PB&J sandwich, that's an accidental death, not suicide. They didn't CHOOSE to eat something harmful to them, though they chose to eat that sandwich.

Second, depression alters your thinking. Even short of the extremes Kezi was talking about where suicide starts looking like a rational choice, a person in the grip of depression does not think/reason the same way that person did before their illness, nor do they think/reason the same way on and off medication, if they're taking antidepressants. It often takes significant time for someone to seek help for their depression because depression itself warps the person's thinking in a way that makes them less prone to seeking help. That does NOT mean they are choosing to feel that way, nor that they don't want to get better. It just means that depression is a dirty liar who is very good at convincing people that they are not deserving of help, or that others surely need that help more than they do. Please don't do its job for it, by spouting the same kind of bullshit it does.


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## Aleksion (Mar 18, 2017)

quoting_mungo said:


> If someone has a deathly severe peanut allergy that they're blissfully unaware of, and dies from anaphylactic shock after eating a PB&J sandwich, that's an accidental death, not suicide. They didn't CHOOSE to eat something harmful to them, though they chose to eat that sandwich.



That would be a freak accident.



quoting_mungo said:


> Second, depression alters your thinking. Even short of the extremes Kezi was talking about where suicide starts looking like a rational choice, a person in the grip of depression does not think/reason the same way that person did before their illness, nor do they think/reason the same way on and off medication, if they're taking antidepressants. It often takes significant time for someone to seek help for their depression because depression itself warps the person's thinking in a way that makes them less prone to seeking help. That does NOT mean they are choosing to feel that way, nor that they don't want to get better. It just means that depression is a dirty liar who is very good at convincing people that they are not deserving of help, or that others surely need that help more than they do. Please don't do its job for it, by spouting the same kind of bullshit it does.



I was talking about depression not psychosis, where people don't even realize they are in altered state of consciousness. Depressed known something isn't alright and they know chocolate and soda diet isn't healthy, so perhaps there could be a connection between how they eat and how they feel. Emotionally disturbed people are still capable of rational thinking, if they were not, we would need much more psych wards


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 18, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> That would be a freak accident.


Yes, and? They chose to eat something that turned out to be harmful to their health, but which they had no prior knowledge would cause them any harm. Same thing if a low-protein diet contributes to someone developing depression - they chose to eat that food, but they did not know it could damage their health to do so.



Aleksion said:


> Depressed known something isn't alright


Actually, that's only half true. Depression creeps up on people, and it's quite common for someone to not realize there's been a change, as it's a nefarious, gradual thing. 



Aleksion said:


> they know chocolate and soda diet isn't healthy, so perhaps there could be a connection between how they eat and how they feel


Except "chocolate and soda diet" is a far ways removed from "a diet short on protein" which is what Kezi was talking about - you can eat a "healthy" diet of, say, salads and fruit, and get far too little protein. You also have the problem of eating, especially sweet foods, releasing reward chemicals in the brain. So if there's any connection being noticed between how a depressed person eats and how they feel, it's more likely to be "snacking on sweets is the only thing that seems to make me feel alright, anymore." 



Aleksion said:


> Emotionally disturbed people are still capable of rational thinking


You're treating "rational" as a binary with a given right and wrong answer. It's not nearly that simple. 

Say you accidentally slice your palm preparing dinner. You'll probably go to the ER or an urgent care facility, even if you can mostly stop the bloodflow by putting pressure on it. Well, as you're in the car being driven to the ER by some nice helpful person in your life, you hear on the car radio that there's been a major accident at a local factory, and dozens of workers are being taken to the ER to be treated for burns or crush injuries or what have you - things that are obviously going to get triaged as more urgent than your injury.

You might decide to go anyway, and resign yourself to waiting while the hospital staff deal with the more serious injury. You might decide to go home and wait, and go in to have it looked at in a few hours, when you expect the worst of the rush from the industrial accident will have died down. Or you might decide to go home and just not bother at all; you'll end up with an ugly scar on your palm but so what? There are people who'll die without care so your injury isn't really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. ALL of these are rational decisions. I've got an ugly-ass scar on my leg that should probably have gotten stitches but ended up just getting home first aid because fuck knows why (I was like five at the time and I don't know my mother's reasoning). It didn't kill me. It didn't even get infected. Clearly going without expert medical care made no great difference in the long run beyond the aestethic.

The problem with the shift in thought that comes from depression is that you become more likely to pick that last option, to mind yourself the best you can and not take up resources that someone else might be able to use better. And you're more likely to believe that others would have better use of those resources. If your referral gets lost in the shuffle you'll patiently wait because you know they've got a lot to do and they'll let you know when it's your turn, right? This is rational thought based on a flawed premise (that it's a given that others have it worse and that their needs should therefore trump yours indefinitely). It's not psychosis, and it's not grounds for involuntarily committing someone, but it IS something that often interferes with depressed people self-advocating and seeking help as much as they should.


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## Kezi Avdiivka (Mar 18, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> But doesn't the body get its protein from breaking down skeletal muscles? Also I don't see from the evolutionary standpoint how getting depressed and loosing will to live as soon as you don't find food would had helped us to survive.
> 
> ps I'm not an expert, but I have heard insulin prevents muscle and fat breakdown and elevated insulin levels are caused by constantly eating sugary foods to which our ancestors did not have access. I could be wrong here though. If it was true, then again what you put in your mouth is your choice, thus depression is a choice



Yes, it does get it's protien from breaking them down, however. That kinda takes time, and we are talking about Stress burning off the neurotransmitters, so you can see why the brain does what it does because it believes a life or death situation OR a life altering event is possibly taking place, we need dopamine and norepinephrine liek, nao.

Also Depression happens from dietary deficiencies gradually over time. It is why they say stress kills....because it literally does. Sacrificing a few neurons to fuel more important ones during stressful situations is normal and fine, the brain can replace them. If it happens too much, then it's a cumulative effect.

Also no depression is not a choice jesus God almighty, noone wants to feel horrid. Not everyone has the knowledge or access too adequate food supplies.


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## Andromedahl (Mar 19, 2017)

Aleksion said:


> Emotionally disturbed people are still capable of rational thinking, if they were not, we would need much more psych wards


I was pretty badly emotionally disturbed more than once in my life and sure af did not have rational thinking. Or at least, I had a thought 'process' but it was highly, highly skewed to a point where it ain't rational.


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## Revates (Mar 19, 2017)

How can depression be real if our brains aren't real?


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## Leoni Zheitk (Mar 22, 2017)

Revates said:


> How can depression be real if our brains aren't real?


Wait... What?
...
I... how...
okthen


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## Multoran (Mar 22, 2017)

Depression can effectively be reduced to a chemical imbalance in the brain.
So in a way, yes.


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## AustinB (Mar 22, 2017)

TL;DR
Yes. Depression is real.


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## racoondevil (Apr 9, 2017)

Short and simple,  yes!  You feel drained even tho you slept enough and ate well.  Things and events neither make you happy, nor do they upset you. You do not care.  You go through the motions.  You have nothing to look forward to, and nothing to be scared of.  There are different kinds of depression,  but this is my definition.


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## Bidoyinn (Apr 9, 2017)

Yes.


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## FluffyShutterbug (Apr 11, 2017)

Trust me... Depression is REAL. When I was 16, I was so depressed, that I couldn't even drag myself out of bed...


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## Princess Flufflebutt (Jun 24, 2020)

Yes. It is not a sign of a lack of strength. Only a sign of a lack of serotonin and dopamine. This is a gross oversimplification, of course. But it is an ailment that can happen to literally anyone.


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## Stray Cat Terry (Jun 24, 2020)

Medicine helps, but it's only temporal.

Anyways, if you got enough cash to spend, visit a professional for the meds, do not stop at the counseling itself. Go on, and get the meds.

Counseling never helps, meds do. Take them regularly and keep taking it while following the instructions of the meds.

Once I forgot to take meds, and half past a day later, it's back to 'normal'. So, never forget to take them regularly...


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## redhusky (Jun 24, 2020)

Depression, Anxiety, ADHD, etc. All of those things are real and if you think you have any of it go seek professional help and if you are prescribed meds take them. Also, any one telling you that taking meds makes you weak is a fool. You wouldn't tell a diabetic that taking insulin makes them weak, no?


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## hardman13 (Jun 24, 2020)

Well, I've been studying biopsychology, and can firmly say depression is about as real as you and I are. Depression isn't an option or a lifestyle choice. It's based on both genotype (DNA in the cells, chromosomal structure, etc) and phenotype (environmental factors such as home life, friends, and so on). As well as this, it could be cause by structural instabilities in the serotonin and the serotonin channels in the neurons in the brain. This explanation for depression basically says not enough serotonin is released/made because of a lack of a specific enzyme, and too much is taken back into the neuron. This causes a marked decrease in energy and overall happiness.

But it's just really hard to specify what causes depression as there are so many factors to impact on it, so trying to TL;DR it is like trying to calm down the excitement over discovering a new species, it's just impossible.


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## Fallowfox (Jun 24, 2020)

This is a very old thread.


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## Frank Gulotta (Jun 24, 2020)

It's literally all in your head


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## Sarachaga (Jun 24, 2020)

Depression is very real, and so is anxiety. 
I don't really see what else to say on the topic, I've experienced both.


Fallowfox said:


> This is a very old thread.


It appears even necromancers get depressed :y


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## Rayd (Jun 24, 2020)

im wholeheartedly glad this troll is banned and very disappointed that so many people fell for this bait thread even 2 years ago.


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## MaelstromEyre (Jun 24, 2020)

I was diagnosed in my early thirties but suffered many years before that.

Depression and anxiety are comorbid conditions of ADHD, which I also wasn't diagnosed with until adulthood.  It's not something you can get out of just by "thinking happy thoughts" or realizing "other people have it worse."  It doesn't help, and telling someone with depression those things is simply dismissing them.  

When I was in my late twenties, I was raped by my ex-boyfriend because he thought that getting me pregnant would guarantee that I'd stay with him.  He was emotionally abusive, manipulative and controlling and it took me a really long time to finally break away from that, and not without some of my own self-inflicted scars.  Yes, this happened to me as an adult - it's not a "moody teenage phase."  

Depression is not always the "moping around, sleeping all day" like they show in commercials.  People with depression can be productive. . .they go to work, they pay their bills, they try to go through life as if things are okay.  They may be funny and sweet and helpful to others.  It's a mask, because a lot of the time they don't want anyone to know how horrible they feel.  In my case. . .whenever I tried to open up about how I was feeling, I was shot down and dismissed.  I literally had NO ONE to talk to.

Yes, I self harmed and have gone so far as to consider suicide.  

It is not "fake."

It's not something people "make up to get attention."  And you can't just "think happy thoughts" to make it go away.  Some days are better than others, but it is ALWAYS there.


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## VictoriaMcLean (Jun 26, 2020)

Yes, it is a very serious illness. The biggest part of people think that it is not very dangerous, but based on personal experience, depression is a real thing and can destroy you from the inside.


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## Deleted member 82554 (Jun 26, 2020)

I think the bigger question is are lesbians real?


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## CestusFlask (Jul 8, 2020)

I can certainly say that depression is real and fighting it can be very difficult. What’s worse, because of a heavy stigma attached to it, some people have to do it alone without any support or help whatsoever.


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 8, 2020)

Let me see....I can speak from experience and other ways. Depression is truly a real thing, and it can affect people in a variety of ways. Their resistance is determined on their mental abilities, and with that, it is a true thing. Depression is like that invisible toxin you can't see, but can very well get. It's like a cloud, expect invisible to the naked eye. It can strike at any time, almost like the air you breathe. It affects people depending on the situation, or if it is merely a mood swing. That is depression in my context, and I can conform it is real. To battle it is hard, but if you know what's causing it, depression can end just as fast as it begun.


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## zentt (Jul 8, 2020)

Don’t post here guys, this 3 year old thread got bumped by an ad bot.


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## Ruki-the-Zorua (Jul 8, 2020)

zentt said:


> Don’t post here guys, this 3 year old thread got bumped by an ad bot.



Shoot, really? Hot dang! My bad!


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## sshado (Jul 8, 2020)

Depression is real. To think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of medical science.

I have to deal with this question all of the time regarding ADHD and it results in patients have negative health-outcomes due to misinformation from the general public.


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