# Looking For Help Regarding Transgender



## Consequence (Feb 16, 2013)

I will TLR at the bottom.

I had a little out-of-left-field chat with a good friend of mine last night who came out to me as transgender. Not that he's already gone through with any changes at all, but that he's felt for years he's a woman born in a man's body. I'm the only person he's had the courage to tell, and it was with the help of a lot of alcohol (he's felt this way for years, it's not a spur-of-the-intoxicated fleeting thing). I love this friend dearly and want to support him any way I can. I know there used to be some prominent male-to-female posters on here (I remember one had a Pepe le Pew icon?), and this was really the only place I could think to go that I was familiar with that might have individuals able to help. Which leads me to two topics in this post :

Neither of us has any real idea about any of the procedures of the male-to-female transition. About hormone replacement or surgeries or any of that. I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction? Online forums, or books, or websites that are informative of the options available to him? Also about the psychological aspect of it to. We're both pretty in the dark about any of what goes into this kind of transition. I was hoping that maybe some people could shed some light on things. Personal experiences, or experiences of people you are close to? I'm definitely more than capable of Google searching, but I was hoping to bypass the ambiguous looking if people knew straight off some good sources and personal experience.

My second question is a little more fun. I promised him when I visit his side of the country this summer that we would spend a day making him over. Again, I will probably google search, but I just hoped I might glean more from people who are there themselves or know about making over a male to look like a female. Mostly like tips and tricks. He's very thin with a slender build, so it actually shouldn't be too hard. I'm just wondering things like; do you pad the hips, and if so, with what? What are good brands for bras? Any makeup tips, clothing tips, especially about pants and giving his lover half a more feminine look (he does have big calves we'll have to account for, but could that maybe be countered with, say, a boot-cut pant?). Basically, I want to help give him a great makeover, and any tips and experience would be really appreciated.

So tl:dr: my friend is male-to-female transgender, and I'm looking for information on the transformation process and tips for makeovers.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 16, 2013)

He's got a Y chromosome, there ain't nothing science can do to change that.


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## Hinalle K. (Feb 16, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> He's got a Y chromosome, there ain't nothing science can do to change that.


Captain Obvious strikes again!


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 16, 2013)

He wanted sex change information, that's literally all I got. Which is actually kind of strange considering how much CE talks about transexuality.

Actually, there's a suggestion. Go talk to CE about this.


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## Kazooie (Feb 16, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> He wanted sex change information, that's literally all I got.


Usually when people have nothing to say, they don't say anything because otherwise they'd be saying nothing which is usually worse than not saying anything in the first place!!

I have a friend who's trans, did a whole bunch of hormone therapy. Don't know too much about it, but it sure was confusing at first; I kept calling her 'he' by mistake, out of habit. Caused so many death-glares.


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## Zerig (Feb 16, 2013)

Kazooie said:


> I have a friend who's trans, did a whole bunch of hormone therapy. Don't know too much about it, but it sure was confusing at first; I kept calling her 'he' by mistake, out of habit. Caused so many death-glares.



He can do as much hormone therapy as he wants, but he's still a dude.


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## Kazooie (Feb 16, 2013)

Zerig said:


> He can do as much hormone therapy as he wants, but he's still a dude.


I don't know, I just classify her as 'female' for most things, except genetically, I guess? I don't really see what the issue is.


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## Command Leader (Feb 16, 2013)

Hint: Use women's clothing.


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## Zerig (Feb 16, 2013)

Kazooie said:


> I don't know, I just classify her as 'female' for most things, except genetically, I guess? I don't really see what the issue is.



The issue is that as soon as we start indulging these people's ridiculous fantasies, we open the door for all the autistic furries and otherkin to get animal hormone therapy and start demanding we call them Sparkletits the Dog or something. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.


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## Azure (Feb 16, 2013)

google some shit about transgender, there will be a pile of resources and you can pick and choose. if he is thin then you should not pad anything, just use loose clothing. and for the love of god have a light hand with the eyeshadow.


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## Kazooie (Feb 16, 2013)

Zerig said:


> The issue is that as soon as we start indulging these people's ridiculous fantasies, we open the door for all the autistic furries and otherkin to get animal hormone therapy and start demanding we call them Sparkletits the Dog or something. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.


oh so it's a _slippery slope_.

I honestly don't care about the issue enough to evangelize someone one way or another. The only thing I'd advise is extreme caution if you plan to undergo major changes to your hormone system, and to do plenty of research/consult multiple doctors before hand, to minimize the chances of complications.


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## Kivaari (Feb 16, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> He's got a Y chromosome, there ain't nothing science can do to change that.


GTFO.



Zerig said:


> He can do as much hormone therapy as he wants, but he's still a dude.


GTFO.


Now that that's out of the way, let's bring in some actual help. First off, aside from places where she has to worry about being outed, refer to her with female pronouns. Or at least ask if she would prefer that. It's amazing how good that seemingly insignificant thing can make a trans person feel. 

Hormones and surgery vary a lot with where you live, what you make, what insurance you have, and what you want. If she is sure that this is what's going on with her, then if at all possible, find an informed consent clinic. They inform you of all the risks involved with hormones, what they will and won't do, and run tests to see what your levels are and make sure it will be safe. They typically also give you the right dosage for you, while other places tend to do "one size fits all" and are highly reluctant to change if that dose isn't right. If she is still questioning, seeing a therapist that specializes in gender identity is a good idea. If you go through a normal doctors office, typically you need to see a therapist for 3 months to get a letter of recommendation for the hormones. Some places are horribly outdated, and would require her to live as a woman for an entire year before even giving her hormones. Avoid those places if at all possible. 

For surgery, if your insurance actually covers it, great! Follow every single requirement they have, and assuming you have a choice, research the doctor heavily. Otherwise, start saving, heavily research the doctors out there, and pick one that you can afford and think will do a good job. In my case, looks like I'll be saving for a trip to Thailand. Some people decide that they won't ever be able to afford surgery, or that they don't really want it, and don't do it. Most of this info pretty much just applies in the US, it will be different in other countries. 

Other things to worry about are hair removal and name change. If you have light skin, and dark hair, then congrats! You can get laser hair removal. They zap the hair on your face (Or anywhere else you want) and it kills the follicle. After a number of treatments, you are either left with no hair, or just a few stubborn hairs that can be taken out by electrolysis. Laser doesn't really hurt, and while expensive, is definitely the cheaper option. Otherwise, with electrolysis, they stick a needle in the follicle, zap it, and it's guaranteed dead. They go one hair at a time, and it's painful, time consuming, and expensive. I'm really hoping laser works well for me, as electrolysis sounds no fun at all. Name changes vary by state and country, just look up the laws in your area.

For resources, the best thing is to find out about a support group in the area. Getting to talk to people going through the same thing is great, and any advice they have is likely to be very useful. For online, reddit is great, I tend to browse r/transgender, r/asktransgender, and r/transpassing. 

For makeover advice, probably best to ask reddit, as being a bicycle mechanic, my day to day wear can't be too fancy otherwise it will get ruined. I'm lucky that as long as it's clothed, my body already looks pretty feminine, so all I need to do is wear either a padded bra or breast forms, and another month or two, and I probably won't need them thanks to hormones. Hip padding is something some girls do, and I think it sounds like a total pain, but if it will make her happy, why not? If you go with a padded bra, cheap ones suck, I found a DKNY one on sale that I love. If she goes with breast forms, then go with whatever bra fits and feels comfortable, cheap bras can do the trick if you find the right one. And remember that makeup takes practice, especially eyeliner. It took a while to get to a point where I didn't feel embarrassed to go out because I had done a terrible job. 

And if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.


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## Aleu (Feb 16, 2013)

The only active member left here is Cannonfodder. Everyone else either was banned or left or they're just unknown. Though kivaari seems to know a lot about it so take advice from them.


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## Zerig (Feb 16, 2013)

Kivaari said:


> GTFO.



Mate, if you want to play dress-up, then go ahead, but don't go mutilating your body and then try and force everyone into pretending you're a chick. You're a dude, and you will always be a dude. 

inb4 Die CIS scum


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Feb 16, 2013)

Zerig said:


> Mate, if you want to play dress-up, then go ahead, but don't go mutilating your body and then try and force everyone into pretending you're a chick. You're a dude, and you will always be a dude.
> 
> inb4 Die CIS scum



Please, tell me more about your first-world problems.


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## Kalmor (Feb 16, 2013)

Zerig said:


> Mate, if you want to play dress-up, then go ahead, but don't go mutilating your body and then try and force everyone into pretending you're a chick. You're a dude, and you will always be a dude.
> 
> inb4 Die CIS scum


Sexually yes, _she_ will be a dude. But gender is in your brain rather than what's between your legs. Also your sex doesn't determine what pronoun you use, gender does.


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## Consequence (Feb 16, 2013)

Thank you guys for all the advice, especially Kivaari. I don't know if they're ready to be called 'she' yet as I think they're still grappling with the fact that someone else knows. But as time goes on I'll use the pronouns when they're ready. 

I found a good scientific site that breaks down the phases, like counseling, hormone replacement, real-life, and then all the available surgeries. I don't know how deeply my friend has thought about any of this, but the logical first step it would seem would to be to get them started with a psychologist for the 3-month evaluation portion. I imagine this person would also have a lot more answers than I can find tooling around online. But it's nice to have a starting point.

Mostly, I just feel happy for my friend that they were able to admit this, but worried because it seems like a long and very daunting road. I just want to do the best I can to be there for them and know the ways I can help them. So thank you all again. 

And don't worry Azure, I won't go hooker-tastic with the makeup.


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## DarrylWolf (Feb 16, 2013)

Transgender rhetoric holds a sway over my life- the idea that what you identify as or with is more important than what your physical appearance or biology says resonated with me.

 I find myself listening to the Motown/Philly/Memphis sound, and actually agreeing with writers like Douglass, Dubois, Garvey, and King, so by that same transgender ideology, then what would that make me?

Of course, my fursona might be able to "bridge that gap" pretty easily.


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## Kivaari (Feb 16, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Sexually yes, _she_ will be a dude. But gender is in your brain rather than what's between your legs. Also your sex doesn't determine what pronoun you use, gender does.


And even sexually, at some point there will be very little to distinguish my body from a cis woman. As far as the hormones in my body, already the same as a cis female. Over time, that will shift body fat around, and my body will look female. That thing between my legs will be fixed through surgery, and the results are good enough that apparently even a gynecologist will have to look really hard to see any difference. There is bone structure that won't change much, chromosomes, and a few internal organs, but those are things that hardly matter in day to day life.

And I'm glad to help Consequence. One thing I forgot to touch on is that there are a lot of therapists and psychologists that don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to this stuff. Going to a support group, you get info about which of them in the area do know what they are doing, same for doctors. 

It's definitely a daunting road, but going down it sure beats sitting around being totally miserable.


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## Zerig (Feb 16, 2013)

Raptros said:


> But gender is in your brain rather than what's between your legs.



People's brains tell them to do a lot of stupid shit, like kill people, do hard drugs, jerk off to cartoon animal people, etc.

You shouldn't always do what it says.


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## Bambi (Feb 16, 2013)

Azure said:


> google some shit about transgender, there will be a pile of resources and you can pick and choose. if he is thin then you should not pad anything, just use loose clothing. and for the love of god have a light hand with the eyeshadow.


Nothing like a trap doused in make up jumping into a hotel swim pool only to have little black clouds in eye circles gently puff up to the surface upon entry.


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## Kalmor (Feb 16, 2013)

Zerig said:


> People's brains tell them to do a lot of stupid shit, like kill people, do hard drugs, jerk off to cartoon animal people, etc.
> 
> You shouldn't always do what it says.


Here, this should help.


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## Dreaming (Feb 16, 2013)

I've never really understood the MtF/FtM stuff, "I dislike my gender stereotypes, so I'm going to conform to the other gender's stereotypes instead"??

As far as medication goes, I think the first thing they'll give you is Androcur? Stuff like Estrogen comes later on, but Androcur will block the effects of testosterone while you're going through the "transition period" (which is basically X amounts of years living as the opposite sex without surgery, to see if you're up to it). Though if you're in the US, things move a lot faster there


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## Zerig (Feb 16, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Here, this should help.



All that did was reinforce my belief that these people have serious mental problems.


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## Conker (Feb 16, 2013)

I'll pass this along from a podcast I listened to. 

Tell your friend that surgery isn't a necessity or a requirement. If he transitions with hormones to a point where he looks like a she but is hesitant to do surgery on the lower half, she doesn't have to. Modern medicine only goes so far when it comes to that area, so she needs to think long and hard (PENIS) when the time comes.

The podcaster interviewed someone, I believe, named Buck Angel who is very much a dude but with a vagina. He transitioned but decided he was fine keeping that part of his body the way it was, partly due to medicine at the time, and partly because he was comfortable having a wizard sleeve and not a wizard's wand. 

Then he went into porn.

Personal comfort and accepting one's body are big issues when it comes to this, so your friend needs to keep that in mind.


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## Kivaari (Feb 16, 2013)

Dreaming said:


> I've never really understood the MtF/FtM stuff, "I dislike my gender stereotypes, so I'm going to conform to the other gender's stereotypes instead"??
> 
> As far as medication goes, I think the first thing they'll give you is Androcur? Stuff like Estrogen comes later on, but Androcur will block the effects of testosterone while you're going through the "transition period" (which is basically X amounts of years living as the opposite sex without surgery, to see if you're up to it). Though if you're in the US, things move a lot faster there


For me, transitioning is about finally being myself, not just following a bunch of stereotypes. I still work as a bike mechanic and love it, I love shopping at thrift stores, I love death metal, I love painting my nails, etc. Kinda like that video Raptros posted pointed out, gender identity and gender expression are not the same thing. My brain definitely knows I'm a woman, and if you look at gender expression as a scale of masculine to feminine, I'd fall somewhere in the middle, probably leaning a bit towards feminine.

For hormones, it's pretty much an anti-androgen (Testosterone blocker), usually spironolactone or androcur, estrogen, and sometimes progesterone. Usually it goes in that order, though I started off on a pretty high dose of spiro and estradiol at the same time.

And yeah, surgery isn't necessary if it isn't something you think you need. I've decided that I definitely will get it as soon as I can, and I know a lot of people that don't seem to be planning on it.


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## Consequence (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't know if at this point they're thinking of surgery yet. Again, I just found this out last night, but will help them to identify how far they want to go. I know they're at least certain that they would like hormone replacement, and to start living as a woman (they're looking forward to the makeover and dressing as a lady). A huge problem for them to overcome right now is perception of others. They grew up in the Bible belt and lost their mother - who would have really been the only family member that would have supported them in this - so making this decision probably means they will be disowned by their family. Which is why I find it all the more important to be there for them, support them, and provide whatever knowledge I can (even if it's just style recommendations). 

And while I'm just ignoring the trolls for the most part, I would like to put in my two cents about my perceptions of gender identity and transgender. To me, based on my observations, it's not a man wanting to feel pretty or a woman wanting to be burly. It's feeling like you truly are the wrong gender, down to your core. You're stuck in the wrong body, and it feels unnatural and unpleasant. I find nothing wrong with being transgender. In fact, I admire those individuals who can admit it to themselves, and go forward with gender reassignment. It's got to take so much courage to confront that in a society and a world that gives you quizzical, judgmental stares and just thinks you're sick. I imagine part of my role as their friend may very well involve physically protecting them from people who are violently confused about the fact that gender is not black and white. People tend to vilify and distance themselves from things they don't understand or that doesn't fit into their mind's world, and that's a harsh burden to bear for just wanting to be who you know you are.


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## PapayaShark (Feb 16, 2013)

Dreaming said:


> I've never really understood the MtF/FtM stuff, "I dislike my gender stereotypes, so I'm going to conform to the other gender's stereotypes instead"?



I has nothing to do with stereotypes and gender roles. Even if women and men were treated the same, I would still hate to wake up every day in my body. 

http://www.susans.org/ A site she might be interested in checking out. 
I don't know much about makeup, but I'm sure you two can find something on youtube. There are a lot of brilliant makup gurus there. Just search for school makeup or everyday makeup or something like that ^^ And NO blue eyeshadows, eyeliners or mascara :>

I'm sorry I can't help much, I'm kinda from the other side and a bit in the middle ^^


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## CannonFodder (Feb 16, 2013)

Aleu said:


> The only active member left here is Cannonfodder. Everyone else either was banned or left or they're just unknown. Though kivaari seems to know a lot about it so take advice from them.


*ding*
Did someone call?


Consequence said:


> I will TL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's best if your friend starts to transition before seeing a gender therapist.  What I mean by that is start to dress, talk and act feminine before you go in cause the requirements to be diagnosed are directly contradictory to each other.  It's best if your friend goes through living female for about six months before they go in cause otherwise they're going to be spending a shit ton of money for long ass periods of time with a psychologist that has to solve a paradox of directly conflicting diagnosis requirements.

As for what to wear and such don't overdo it.  What I mean by that is don't dress your friend up in short skirts, high heels and such cause they're going to stick out like a sore thumb.  It's best to imagine you're coming up with a outfit for someone that's born female and just looks masculine rather than coming up with some way overdone outfits.  If you wouldn't wear it then don't make them wear it.  Go for something subtle.  Instead of wearing high heels and short skirts and expecting them to pass, have some nice jeans or shorts.  Men and women's legs do look similar, it is okay to show some leg.  As for shoes, stay away from high heels or shoes that show a lot of feet.  Boots work the best, but don't go for combat boots, more along the lines of fashion boots.

For shirts and tops don't go for anything that emphasis the shoulders and no turtle necks.  The point is to emphasize or create curves.  No halter tops, no string tops, no off shoulder tops, no turtle necks.  If they have a large adams apple use makeup to conceal it.

As for makeup don't overdo it.  The point is to bring out feminine features  If you can't fix something don't glob a ton of makeup on their face expecting nobody to notice.

Wax everything, and I mean everything. . . except for _that_.

Also when it comes to voice and body language that's harder to do and takes months of practice.

As for surgery and such it's best for them to have hair removal surgery FIRST, then face feminization surgery and then the vaginoplasty.  Hair removal costs like 10k, but it can be done bits at a time.  Like they can do only your face, they don't have to do your entire body.  Face Feminization is more costly and depends on the person.  They'll probably do it in parts and it's best to do it that way anyhow incase something does go wrong they can correct that one small part instead of your entire face.  Vaginoplasty surgery is the most expensive and the hardest.  You HAVE to have that surgery all at once.  Also they should NOT go to a cheap plastic surgeon either.  Getting the surgery at a discount will lead to a unrealistic vagina.  Whereas getting the surgery from a better plastic surgeon will be more realistic.


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## Rasly (Feb 16, 2013)

I have read somewhere, that drinkin lots of Beer, makes guys look like women.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 16, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I have read somewhere, that drinkin lots of Beer, makes guys look like women.


Drinking tons of beer gives you a beer belly and starts breast production.  Ever wonder why you see some fat guys that look like they need a bra?


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## Streetcircus (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't know if your friend will be happier if you tell him to stop trying to conform to gender roles, but the rest of the world will be if there is one less clueless dude who doesn't realize dressing up like a girl just makes him look like a freak.

Since believing being a woman means wearing high heels and make-up is a matter of perception, believing that you aren't yourself until you play that role must also be a matter of perception. Reminding everyone how cruel life can be because you can't get over your delusions is not fair to the rest of us.


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## Hinalle K. (Feb 16, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> I don't know if your friend will be happier if you tell him to stop trying to conform to gender roles, but the rest of the world will be if there is one less clueless dude who doesn't realize dressing up like a girl just makes him look like a freak.
> 
> Since believing being a woman means wearing high heels and make-up is a matter of perception, believing that you aren't yourself until you play that role must also be a matter of perception. Reminding everyone how cruel life can be because you can't get over your delusions is not fair to the rest of us.


Poor, poor Streetcircus! So unfair!
Here here, I won't let those silly transgenders get close to you and ruin your life anymore.


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## Consequence (Feb 16, 2013)

I myself stay miles away from high heels and short skirts, and the information I was indeed looking for was for a more casual, normal look. I think it's easier to go way over the top than it is to make them look like a normal, everyday working woman, so that's why I was looking for "insider" tips. You helped a lot, so thanks, CF. I figured a nice pair of stretch boot-cut slacks would have done nicely, but what I was lost on was the top. So since you say no shoulder emphasis, maybe a crewcut shirt or a button-up collared? 

I was going to take it easy on makeup, too. The only overemphasis I'm guilty of on myself is eyeliner, but that's because I kinda like a slightly gothish look. I know it certainly may not work on my friend, it's more up to them. But the makeup will definitely be low key. I think as far as makeup, it wondered more on things like, using lipstick to create the illusion of fuller lips, ways to raise the brow line, suggest using blush to create cheekbones, etc. Any thoughts on things like that?

I think in the time leading up to my visit I'd probably emphasize more to them about coming to accept themselves and this aspect of their life. I think between that and some success in looking like a woman would help them to begin the transition. Right now I know they're still in a phase where they're demeaning themselves for feeling this way, and that's something they need to get past, not just for this transition, but for their quality of life. They admitted suicidal thoughts in the past stemming from such feelings of confusion and unhappiness, and that obviously has to stop.

Thank you, again, CF, for the good insight. I may PM you and Kivaari in the coming weeks and months if I have questions or need advice, if that's alright. Mostly now that I've gotten some direction and advice, I'd just like to stop giving people with derogatory views towards people like my friend and yourself a forum for their hate. I created this thread to help a friend, not listen to peoples' opinion on how my friend is a horrible person. If you do have more advice, by all means please post. The more people I can turn to the better. I just feel it's probably a better idea to take this to PMs eventually now that I know some of you than to turn this into a multi-page hate-fest.


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## CannonFodder (Feb 16, 2013)

Consequence said:


> Thank you, again, CF, for the good insight. I may PM you and Kivaari in the coming weeks and months if I have questions or need advice, if that's alright. Mostly now that I've gotten some direction and advice, I'd just like to stop giving people with derogatory views towards people like my friend and yourself a forum for their hate. I created this thread to help a friend, not listen to peoples' opinion on how my friend is a horrible person. If you do have more advice, by all means please post. The more people I can turn to the better. I just feel it's probably a better idea to take this to PMs eventually now that I know some of you than to turn this into a multi-page hate-fest.


The reason why this thread is going down in quality is because the four forum taboo topics are religion, politics, transgender and talking whether or not liking Derpy is ableist.

These sorts of threads on transgender also go downhill in certain specific ways-
1)some person on thread, "I'm a random person on the internet and thus know more about transgender and I say you are being stupid for not listening to my demand that you don't transition even though it's none of my business what individuals do with their personal lives and thus doesn't effect them in any shape or form and will throw a tantrum whenever called out on this"
2)some person on thread, "I'm not against transgender rights, BUT <insert asshole comment saying they should just be dickgirls>"
3)some person on thread, "Well I may just be a random person on the internet, but you don't follow my preconceived notions of what transgender is and thus in my eyes not transgender and I don't think anyone is transgender until they fulfil my stereotypical views on the topic"
4)some person on thread, "Well I may not be a doctor in any shape or form and I may get my medical information from the television, but <insert medically inaccurate assumption without properly looking into the discussion>"
5)some person on thread, "Well <insert person here>'s problems don't matter cause they're transgender and thus their psychological well being is less important than the well being of glb because there are less of them and thus don't matter"
6)some person on thread, "Well transgender rights don't matter because they are just piggybacking on the successes of glb rights even though large quantities of transgender individuals are glb and human sexuality doesn't change just because you transitioned and therefore if you were born male and like women before you are going to still like women afterwards and thus be technically be lesbian afterwards"
7)People getting mad that you realize how predictable they are and would rather see the thread go down in flames than admit maybe just maybe others know enough about them to know what their posting style is.
8 )People who get mad at #7.

Tl:dr; these threads go downhill because the majority of people posting in it are extremely predictable.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 16, 2013)

Zerig hit the nail on the head like a signature strike from LUE itself so I'm not going to reinvent the wheel on that account. I will state my golden tran rule though: that if they want me to respect their gender/sex/role/whatever the fuck we're calling it now choice, they have to agree to respect the fact that I am a black man.


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## Ricky (Feb 16, 2013)

Kivaari said:


> For me, transitioning is about finally being myself, not just following a bunch of stereotypes.



Gender is about stereotypes, or the way society perceives sex, and you want to change your gender... to _avoid stereotypes_?



Kivaari said:


> I still work as a bike mechanic and love it, I love shopping at thrift stores, I love death metal, I love painting my nails, etc. Kinda like that video Raptros posted pointed out, gender identity and gender expression are not the same thing. My brain definitely knows I'm a woman, and if you look at gender expression as a scale of masculine to feminine, I'd fall somewhere in the middle, probably leaning a bit towards feminine.



You almost sound neutral on the subject, yet you want to make radical changes to your body?

Don't get me wrong... I don't care, and you should do what you want.

I'm just trying to figure out the motivating factor here if you are downplaying gender's role in society.


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## Golden (Feb 17, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Sexually yes, _she_ will be a dude. But gender is in your brain rather than what's between your legs. Also your sex doesn't determine what pronoun you use, gender does.


  Glad there was someone to point out that, yes, there is a difference between sex and gender.


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## Kivaari (Feb 17, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Gender is about stereotypes, or the way society perceives sex, and you want to change your gender... to _avoid stereotypes_?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Papayashark and Consequence summed it up pretty well. While it's getting a lot better, I still hate my body. I know what is supposed to be there, and the fact that I see something else instead every time I look into the mirror drives me crazy.

I guess a way to explain what I was saying is imagine a stereotypical butch lesbian. Masculine is a word that probably describes her better than feminine, and yet she is still a woman.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 17, 2013)

Raptros said:


> Sexually yes, _she_ will be a dude. But gender is in your brain rather than what's between your legs. Also your sex doesn't determine what pronoun you use, gender does.



People keep saying this, and I keep calling B.S. on it. Gender and sex have been used interchangeably and are still used interchangeably in the everyday vernacular. Committing verbicide for your own opinions is ridiculous, especially when your entire argument is based on your own made up semantics. I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they want to their bodies, but trying to claim they're not a few coconuts short of a palm tree for wanting to surgically mutilate themselves in the name of some psychological abnormality is, in the end, only going to hurt everyone involved. I've heard of people who amputate their own limbs due to psychological problems, how is that any different?


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## CannonFodder (Feb 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I've heard of people who amputate their own limbs due to psychological problems, how is that any different?


Cause transgender individuals don't purposefully leave themselves physically crippled unable to walk or such.


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## PapayaShark (Feb 17, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> People keep saying this, and I keep calling B.S. on it. Gender and sex have been used interchangeably and are still used interchangeably in the everyday vernacular. Committing verbicide for your own opinions is ridiculous, especially when your entire argument is based on your own made up semantics. I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they want to their bodies, but trying to claim they're not a few coconuts short of a palm tree for wanting to surgically mutilate themselves in the name of some psychological abnormality is, in the end, only going to hurt everyone involved. I've heard of people who amputate their own limbs due to psychological problems, how is that any different?



Why the fuck do you care so much. It doesn't affect you AT ALL. Transgender people have to pay for their own surgeries, so none of your tax money goes to dem filthy trannies!1!11!one!! And having to use different pronouns than you want to, does not hurt you either.
And amputating a limb hurts their own ability to function, SRS doesn't. People who have had SRS can still function just fine. And not all transgender people have surgeries.

And stop saying you don't have a problem with what other people do with their bodies, because obviously you do. If you didn't care, you would't have replied to this tread and been a total jackass.

If you, Streetcircus and Zerig want to bitch and moan, go make your own tread on how dem filthy trannies are terrible and how it affects your guys so fucking much.

If you met this guy on the street, would you think of him as a chick? Or If you met this girl, would you think she was a dude?


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 17, 2013)

Would you care if you watched a bunch of people lop off their fingers because their brains told them they were cartoons and that they had too many? Cause that's what it looks like from my end. Expecting other people to use different pronouns is just ridiculous. SRS makes people permanently dependent on hormone therapy and removes all sexual function, so yeah, that's what I'd call damaging. Kinda weird cause I always thought doctors ascribed their practice as giving health to mankind, but I guess the "above all else, do no harm" bit kinda slips through the cracks when money's on the table.

I never said I didn't have a problem with it, since I obviously do. I said I respect their right to do whatever the hell they want to themselves. Just cause I don't like seeing a dude bumping cocaine several times a day doesn't mean I'm going to force him to stop doing something to his own body. Transsexual people need to have the same civil liberties as anyone else, especially when it comes to stuff like workplace harassment, there's no excuse for that kind of crap. It's their goddamn right to do what they want to themselves and live whatever lifestyle they want, just as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Just like it's my right to think they've all got cats in their brains.



> If you, Ricky, Streetcircus and Zerig want to bitch and moan, go make your own tread on how dem filthy trannies are terrible and how it affects your guys so fucking much.



I might just do that since your jimmies are at maximum overrustle here.

As for the traps, the first I can't really tell and the second has dat manjaw. Looks kinda like Kitana actually.


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## Xaerun (Feb 17, 2013)

Transphobia in this thread will net you a three day ban on the spot.

Do not test me on this.


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## Rasly (Feb 17, 2013)

Transphobia, so many crazy words people have invented lately.


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## Consequence (Feb 17, 2013)

Thank you, Xae. I only wanted some fashion tips for my friend and some help understanding what they will be going through as they work towards gender reassignment. It disgusts me that people decided that this absolutely warranted their opinions on how my friend is a sick fuck whose feelings of psychologically being the wrong gender should be denied and dismissed. It's akin to telling gay people they're horrible for wanting something outside of the societal norm. "No, you're not gay because nature dictates males mate with females and your homosexuality is a dysfunction in the brain, therefore I will not recognize your love for the same sex". "No, you're not a woman because gender is purely physical and your gender misidentity is a dysfunction in the brain, therefore I will not recognize that you could possibly feel you are not the gender you were born." Who one person loves or what gender one person is impacts no one but themselves, except maybe that person's spouse. If we were debating the foundations of GID, then yeah, speak your mind. But I only wanted to know what kinds of underwear to shop for.

Person + anonymity + audience = fuckwad.


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## Kazooie (Feb 17, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Transphobia, so many crazy words people have invented lately.


I find your phobia of phobias to be quite irrational and unjustified, sir.


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## Hakar Kerarmor (Feb 17, 2013)

Rasly said:


> Transphobia, so many crazy words people have invented lately.



Back in my days these people were just called 'assholes'.


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 17, 2013)

Consequence said:


> Thank you, Xae. I only wanted some fashion tips for my friend and some help understanding what they will be going through as they work towards gender reassignment. It disgusts me that people decided that this absolutely warranted their opinions on how my friend is a sick fuck whose feelings of psychologically being the wrong gender should be denied and dismissed. It's akin to telling gay people they're horrible for wanting something outside of the societal norm. "No, you're not gay because nature dictates males mate with females and your homosexuality is a dysfunction in the brain, therefore I will not recognize your love for the same sex". "No, you're not a woman because gender is purely physical and your gender misidentity is a dysfunction in the brain, therefore I will not recognize that you could possibly feel you are not the gender you were born." Who one person loves or what gender one person is impacts no one but themselves, except maybe that person's spouse. If we were debating the foundations of GID, then yeah, speak your mind. But I only wanted to know what kinds of underwear to shop for.
> 
> Person + anonymity + audience = fuckwad.



It would seem CF already gave the really good advice out. But I've got one more piece for you to tell your friend: Don't listen to the douchebags of the world. There will always be insecure, petty, and (dare I say?) jealous people out there but you have to move pass them, don't give them the time of day, and live your life. 

Have him surround himself with positive people who will support him through this difficult transition and maybe even check out LGBT communities near him.


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## Ricky (Feb 17, 2013)

Kivaari said:


> Papayashark and Consequence summed it up pretty  well. While it's getting a lot better, I still hate my body. I know what  is supposed to be there, and the fact that I see something else instead  every time I look into the mirror drives me crazy.
> 
> I guess a way to explain what I was saying is imagine a stereotypical  butch lesbian. Masculine is a word that probably describes her better  than feminine, and yet she is still a woman.



That's fine; just realize you really *do* care about gender stereotypes then.



TeenageAngst said:


> People  keep saying this, and I keep calling B.S. on it. Gender and sex have  been used interchangeably and are still used interchangeably in the  everyday vernacular. Committing verbicide for your own opinions is  ridiculous, especially when your entire argument is based on your own  made up semantics. I don't have a problem with people doing whatever  they want to their bodies, but trying to claim they're not a few  coconuts short of a palm tree for wanting to surgically mutilate  themselves in the name of some psychological abnormality is, in the end,  only going to hurt everyone involved. I've heard of people who amputate  their own limbs due to psychological problems, how is that any  different?



... well, you really *could* extend that to people getting tattoos  or piercings or some of the weirder shit out there. Like I said, I don't  care. And you obviously don't care either though you seem to feel more  strongly about it. Also, why the fuck did they ban you? I guess I'll  have to ask you over IM =P



PapayaShark said:


> If you, Ricky, Streetcircus and Zerig want to bitch and moan, go make your own tread on how dem filthy trannies are terrible and how it affects your guys so fucking much.



Hi, trangsty one. Please re-read my posts and if you still think I'm bitching and not trying to have a rational debate, you are fucked. Some of my better friends are trans =P


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## PapayaShark (Feb 17, 2013)

Ricky said:


> Hi, trangsty one. Please re-read my posts and if you still think I'm bitching and not trying to have a rational debate, you are fucked. Some of my better friends are trans =P



Dude sorry, your name just popped up in my head and I typed it down without thinking. Hope you can forgive me :>


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## Ricky (Feb 17, 2013)

... sure, of course ^_^

Also, I should have said "discussion" and not "debate."

I'm not really trying to "debate" anything.


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## Streetcircus (Feb 17, 2013)

Consequence said:


> Thank you, Xae. I only wanted some fashion tips for my friend and some help understanding what they will be going through as they work towards gender reassignment. It disgusts me that people decided that this absolutely warranted their opinions on how my friend is a sick fuck whose feelings of psychologically being the wrong gender should be denied and dismissed. It's akin to telling gay people they're horrible for wanting something outside of the societal norm. "No, you're not gay because nature dictates males mate with females and your homosexuality is a dysfunction in the brain, therefore I will not recognize your love for the same sex". "No, you're not a woman because gender is purely physical and your gender misidentity is a dysfunction in the brain, therefore I will not recognize that you could possibly feel you are not the gender you were born." Who one person loves or what gender one person is impacts no one but themselves, except maybe that person's spouse. If we were debating the foundations of GID, then yeah, speak your mind. But I only wanted to know what kinds of underwear to shop for.
> 
> Person + anonymity + audience = fuckwad.



If you make public something private by posting it on a public forum, you are giving people license to express disapproval. Granted, some of the comments left were hostile - including mine - but just because something makes someone happy without hurting anyone immediately or obviously, it doesn't make it right by default. Everything you do has an impact on everyone else, so it is important to be able to have your say at the very least. One way a guy wearing women's clothing is harmful is the damage it does to our culture. It is important to remain pleasant to others, and a guy wearing women's clothing is considered tactless and awkward. If he does it in private, then obviously it's not a problem, but announcing it publicly on the internet is not keeping it private.

The criticism of transgenders should have been kept on-topic, though. If you want advice, mine would be to avoid wearing clothes for the sake of feeling as though you are truly being yourself. If you can get that from clothes and other superficial things, then there is a deeper issue that should be addressed. Since the significance of clothing is a matter of perception, your friend should instead be trying to change his perception so that he can feel like his true self without the dependency on clothes. It isn't the easier of the two options, but the right thing is rarely the easiest option.


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## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 18, 2013)

Zerig said:


> All that did was reinforce my belief that these people have serious mental problems.



If that's what you believe even after watching the video Raptros posted for you, then there is *NO MORE DISCUSSION* with you on this subject. The only cure for your evil ways is to be purged from existence.


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 18, 2013)

-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> If that's what you believe even after watching the video Raptros posted for you, then there is *NO MORE DISCUSSION* with you on this subject. The only cure for your evil ways is to be purged from existence.



Drac, it's great that you feel transgendered people shouldn't be pissed all over (it truly is) but please...stop the white knightin'. The "IN THE NAME OF THE MOON...I WILL PUNISH YOU!" stuff is really tacky. A lot of us don't agree with Zerig but we aren't banishing him from existence. In all honesty, you're not helping.


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## Ricky (Feb 18, 2013)

-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> If that's what you believe even after watching the video Raptros posted for you, then there is *NO MORE DISCUSSION* with you on this subject. The only cure for your evil ways is to be purged from existence.



The first thing I thought after watching that video is, "wow that kid's a dork."

The first time. This time, I thought "oh that video again."

Besides, it isn't anything I don't know already. Some people like to dress up like animals and have sex. People are weird.

So, you think you're a chick. FYIAD


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## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 18, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> Drac, it's great that you feel transgendered people shouldn't be pissed all over (it truly is) but please...stop the white knightin'. The "IN THE NAME OF THE MOON...I WILL PUNISH YOU!" stuff is really tacky. A lot of us don't agree with Zerig but we aren't banishing him from existence. In all honesty, you're not helping.



Well, I obviously don't have the ability to do that myself (nor do I actually believe he should be slaughtered, just to be givin' a good hard smack across the face), but I'm just telling you that if that video (which was pretty deep and revealing and actually enlightened me quite a bit past my previous "meh" and "well only if" opinion on the subject) wasn't enough to make him wake up and smell the coffee, then he has some serious issues that need some serious rehabilitation.



Ricky said:


> The first thing I thought after watching that video is, "wow that kid's a dork."
> 
> The first time. This time, I thought "oh that video again."
> 
> ...



*TROLL ALERT!!!* :V


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## Streetcircus (Feb 18, 2013)

-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> Well, I obviously don't have the ability to do that myself (nor do I actually believe he should be slaughtered, just to be givin' a good hard smack across the face), but I'm just telling you that if that video (which was pretty deep and revealing and actually enlightened me quite a bit past my previous "meh" and "well only if" opinion on the subject) wasn't enough to make him wake up and smell the coffee, then he has some serious issues that need some serious rehabilitation.



I'm going to have to agree with Ricky and Zerig on the video's lack of merit. It was a video made by a youtube celebrity who doesn't have any actual insight on the topic of gender identity. It's just his opinions with some quick-cuts and animations. It's more entertainment than educational.


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## CaptainCool (Feb 18, 2013)

So much hatefull bullshit in this thread...
"Drawing the line somewhere"? So helping people is wrong? We have the possibility to actually help them today. That is amazing and we should be grateful for that!
No matter what your reasons are for being against this kind of therapy, be it BS religious reasons or otherwise, in my book that makes you a massive immoral assface who denies people their right to be happy.
It doesn't affect your life in any sort of way. So STFU and deal with it!

Also: http://24.media.tumblr.com/28fc36efdf78f314621f541e73f20046/tumblr_midb37AfSq1qkivpqo1_500.png


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## Zerig (Feb 18, 2013)

So when did this forum become the hangout for the Tumblr Social Justice Warriors to whinge about their BS? It seems I missed the announcement.



-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> (which was pretty deep and revealing and actually enlightened me quite a bit past my previous "meh" and "well only if" opinion on the subject)



I guess it was 2deep4me


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## DarrylWolf (Feb 18, 2013)

The thing is, I don't think society will ever fully accept the fact that transgender people really have switched their genders. The closest you could come to actually doing that is to become a "drag queen" who never takes the makeup off- but "drag queens" are known for being so over-the-top that they don't really fool anybody. Everybody knows a "drag queen" really isn't female.

In much the same way, I may have the desire to switch ethnicities but I'm not asking society to make concessions. My fursona is definitely Afro-American and there will come a time when I'll have a fursuit and will in fact, become him for a short time by putting on a fursuit. But that's close as I can get to "switching sides". Like a drag queen, my fursona will also be over-the-top (he plays basketball, listens to soul music, and he has a beard and curled hair). But I know I'm Caucasian and nothing can change that, I just enjoy forms of art, culture, and especially music that originated with black communities in the inner cities that would be unusual for white people to like. The problem is if we say that "gender" is an artificial social construct, we'd have to say "race" is as well- and most members of one race do not like other people "copying" them. The same is true of gender.


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## Kalmor (Feb 18, 2013)

Woah this thread...

That video I linked, youtube celeb or not, brings up very good points that some of you don't seem to understand. I'm pretty sure he has a behind the scenes reaserch team as he does with his science channels so no these are not just his opinions.

Oh and SC, we've been though this many, many times before and I'm quite frankly tired of arguing with you as it always turns into a circular debate.


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## CaptainCool (Feb 18, 2013)

Zerig said:


> So when did this forum become the hangout for the Tumblr Social Justice Warriors to whinge about their BS? It seems I missed the announcement.



How is supporting others with their legitimate problems bullshit?


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## Zerig (Feb 18, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> legitimate problems



8/10, good one, brah.


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## Arshes Nei (Feb 18, 2013)

I know of a couple people that were interesting to note.

Jan Scott Frazier, often respected go-to guy who actually worked in the Anime Industry in Japan. Back when college kids had scripts in their hands reading along with a crappy poor quality VHS video of anime that was harder to get back over in the US.

http://www.janscottfrazier.com/Jan/Home.html

Jeffrey Catherine Jones.

Very awesome illustrator who passed away not too long ago: http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/05/spotlight-on-jeffrey-catherine-jones.html (might not be SFW?)


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## Troj (Feb 18, 2013)

There is evidence to suggest that  transsexualism isn't just a "delusion" that springs from "nowhere," or that is rooted in a simple desire to "escape" gender stereotypes. Transsexualism appears to have a solid biological basis.

It is also not a psychosis or a delusion because it typically does not adversely affect an individual's functioning or reality-testing in other areas.

My sense is also that if someone has the means and the ability to bring their "outside" in sync with their "inside," and if this process will allow them to lead a richer, happier, more successful life overall, and isn't harmful to others, then who am I to quibble or bitch, just because I might not personally understand, relate to, or share their dilemma?

Resources:

National Center for Transgender Equality
The high personal cost of transition
Workplace Gender Transition Guidelines
Transcending Boundaries
Transgender Law
Billy de Frank Center


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## AshleyAshes (Feb 18, 2013)

CannonFodder said:


> The reason why this thread is going down in quality is because the four forum taboo topics are religion, politics, transgender and talking whether or not liking Derpy is ableist.



No, the reason that transgender threads on this forum go down quickly is because they are quickly dominated by complete fuckwits, all of which have been banned so far except for you.  These fuckwits prove time and time again that they are too stupid to realize 'You arn't going to change anyone's mind on transgender just by typing at them, so focus on the thread content at hand and ignore the rest, leaving it for moderators to quietly deal with the trolling' and they become part of the machine that drags the thread to hell instead.


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## Amy (Feb 18, 2013)

I've literally just signed up to the forum after being recomended it by a friend who told me it was a great place, started looking around some of the topics and was immediately drawn to this one, I myself being a transgender woman.  However, once I started reading through some of the comments people have made I suddenly find myself rethinking my decision to joing Fur Affinity.  I'm shocked, appalled and disgusted by some of the transphobic statements being made on this site.

These kind of comments, usually from backwards people who have little to no nowledge of the issue and who simply refuse to see any kind of reasone argument are the kind of people that make the world a poorer place.  Trans people have to deal with an unbelievable amount of pain and suffering from their dysphoria and don't ever need to be subjected to hatefilled comments like some of the ones on display here.

I also find it amazing that on a furry site, somewhere where i expected to find some very open minded people, such views are held.  Fur Affinity you have made one very poor first impression.  

I appreciate the fact that not everyone on the forum is like this, but I find it hard to feel welcomed or comfortable now.


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## Streetcircus (Feb 18, 2013)

CaptainCool said:


> So much hatefull bullshit in this thread...
> "Drawing the line somewhere"? So helping people is wrong? We have the possibility to actually help them today. That is amazing and we should be grateful for that!
> No matter what your reasons are for being against this kind of therapy, be it BS religious reasons or otherwise, in my book that makes you a massive immoral assface who denies people their right to be happy.
> It doesn't affect your life in any sort of way. So STFU and deal with it!
> ...



He's asking what kind of women's underwear his friend should buy to make him feel whole. Why should anyone feel grateful to help this person pick out underpants he depends on to feel like a complete person? Don't call people names when you have it so wrong.

Also, as I've said, everything you make public has an impact on the world. If it enters my consciousness, it affects me. You cannot determine that no harm can come from someone's behavior just because the ill effects are not obvious. What can a grown man accomplish by putting on women's undergarments other than to be intrusively tasteless?



Troj said:


> There is evidence to suggest that  transsexualism isn't just a "delusion" that springs from "nowhere," or that is rooted in a simple desire to "escape" gender stereotypes. Transsexualism appears to have a solid biological basis.
> 
> It is also not a psychosis or a delusion because it typically does not adversely affect an individual's functioning or reality-testing in other areas.
> 
> ...



What's funny is that one of the links you provided was authored by someone who spent beyond their means to change their physical appearance. People are spending tons of money, with help from my taxes in the US, to look a certain way, but ask those people if a woman with no breasts, short hair, narrow hips, and facial hair, who likes things that are stereotypical of males, is not a woman. They will probably say that those things do not define a woman, and yet, they need to spend beyond their means to have them to feel like their gender.

That idea of what a woman is supposed to be is not biological. It's conditioned. Of course they are biologically different, but explain to me how superficial things like hair and breasts are supposed to make someone feel like themselves. There's a better answer than to encouraging someone to take such drastic measures to try and become something they will never be.

Furthermore, people should start asking what they can sacrifice of themselves so that others can be happier, not what others can sacrifice for the happiness of the individual. They may have more successful lives, but what does it cost me to cater to their delusions? More than you're willing to consider apparently.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 18, 2013)

Troj said:


> There is evidence to suggest that  transsexualism isn't just a "delusion" that springs from "nowhere," or that is rooted in a simple desire to "escape" gender stereotypes. Transsexualism appears to have a solid biological basis.
> 
> It is also not a psychosis or a delusion because it typically does not adversely affect an individual's functioning or reality-testing in other areas.
> 
> ...



Ahh the murky realm of correlation science. A formal proof is beyond the scope of the greater part of medical science, most of all the wishful thinking of psychology, but at the very least they could *attempt* inverse relationships to prove their correlations. Simply comparing a SRS to a control isn't enough to prove something. The inverse must not only also be proven, but be proportionally proven. The outliers must be accounted for, and by that I don't mean relegated outside a few standard deviations of the sample proportion, I mean the reasons for their deviance thoroughly explained and documented. Psychology seems to be entirely immune to the usual formal measures, checks and balances, and hard data analysis that is required to make many of the "facts" it purports. Hell, most of the time it can't even deduce if what it's looking at is a dependent variable or not, and what confounding variables could be at work.


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## Butters Shikkon (Feb 18, 2013)

Amy said:


> I've literally just signed up to the forum after being recomended it by a friend who told me it was a great place, started looking around some of the topics and was immediately drawn to this one, I myself being a transgender woman.  However, once I started reading through some of the comments people have made I suddenly find myself rethinking my decision to joing Fur Affinity.  I'm shocked, appalled and disgusted by some of the transphobic statements being made on this site.
> 
> These kind of comments, usually from backwards people who have little to no nowledge of the issue and who simply refuse to see any kind of reasone argument are the kind of people that make the world a poorer place.  Trans people have to deal with an unbelievable amount of pain and suffering from their dysphoria and don't ever need to be subjected to hatefilled comments like some of the ones on display here.
> 
> ...



I'll first start off by welcoming you to the forum and then I'll remind you that the mainsite and these forums are two very different things. Faf is pretty cool but if you are of the mindset that the furries here accept everything...well, its not the place for you. I think you should keep in mind the fact that two users were temp banned for transphobia in this thread and what that says about the overall forum's stance on the matter.


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## Consequence (Feb 18, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> He's asking what kind of women's underwear his friend should buy to make him feel whole. Why should anyone feel grateful to help this person pick out underpants he depends on to feel like a complete person? Don't call people names when you have it so wrong.
> 
> Also, as I've said, everything you make public has an impact on the world. If it enters my consciousness, it affects me. You cannot determine that no harm can come from someone's behavior just because the ill effects are not obvious. What can a grown man accomplish by putting on women's undergarments other than to be intrusively tasteless?



So you're going to take the one thing I said out of context? It goes deeper than "oh, my panties make me feel like a woman!". It's looking in the mirror and seeing what you feel you are looking back at you. Everyday my friend and people like them feel they are living a fallacy. A mistake. For my friend to finally stop being at odds with himself, for his mind to match his body, to obtain happiness; you decry that because it makes you slightly uncomfortable?

What if the transition was so seamless that you couldn't even tell. That one day you met this person and became good friends. Then you found out what they used to be. Are you automatically going to discredit them as a person because they decided to change genders? Does someone's gender really matter that much to you? And the fact you post so vehemently in this thread; you give that much of a crap about the gender of a _complete stranger who has no bearing whatsoever on your life?_

Tasteless is your own opinion. There are transgenders who've made the transition so seamlessly they are models. They are being who they are, they are successful, and they are happy. Yeah. That's such a travesty to mankind. How dare they. :V


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## Conker (Feb 18, 2013)

Consequence said:


> Tasteless is your own opinion. There are transgenders who've made the transition so seamlessly they are models. They are being who they are, they are successful, and they are happy. Yeah. That's such a travesty to mankind. How dare they. :V


That's true. I've seen a handful of mtf transgenders as the subject of Kotaku posts for whatever reason. Usually something to do with cosplaying or modeling characters. 

They were god damned attractive, and it was only with some scrutiny that the transition became obvious.


----------



## Aleu (Feb 18, 2013)

Butterflygoddess said:


> I'll first start off by welcoming you to the forum and then I'll remind you that the mainsite and these forums are two very different things. Faf is pretty cool but if you are of the mindset that the furries here accept everything...well, its not the place for you. I think you should keep in mind the fact that two users were temp banned for transphobia in this thread and what that says about the overall forum's stance on the matter.


Too bad it was only tempbanned.


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## Streetcircus (Feb 18, 2013)

Consequence said:


> So you're going to take the one thing I said out of context? It goes deeper than "oh, my panties make me feel like a woman!". It's looking in the mirror and seeing what you feel you are looking back at you. Everyday my friend and people like them feel they are living a fallacy. A mistake. For my friend to finally stop being at odds with himself, for his mind to match his body, to obtain happiness; you decry that because it makes you slightly uncomfortable?
> 
> What if the transition was so seamless that you couldn't even tell. That one day you met this person and became good friends. Then you found out what they used to be. Are you automatically going to discredit them as a person because they decided to change genders? Does someone's gender really matter that much to you? And the fact you post so vehemently in this thread; you give that much of a crap about the gender of a _complete stranger who has no bearing whatsoever on your life?_
> 
> Tasteless is your own opinion. There are transgenders who've made the transition so seamlessly they are models. They are being who they are, they are successful, and they are happy. Yeah. That's such a travesty to mankind. How dare they. :V



Looking a certain way is superficial. It's a matter of perception. Your "friend" chooses to value what he thinks women are supposed to look like so much that it causes him distress not to have it. I would love to be taller, darker, fitter, and better looking, but I choose how important those things are to me. We all want things, but we should all realize what really matters in life. What underwear you have on is not one of those things.

If your happiness is dependent on what you look like, then that's the only fallacy your friend is a victim of.

Your friend's lacy thong is just one of the many things I would have to ignore on a daily basis. What will I have left of reality when I have to turn a blind eye to everything that makes everyone happy despite the logical shortcomings of their behavior? Isn't it much simpler for your friend to just not put on women's underwear than to expect everyone to pretend it's not tacky and tasteless?

I have a news flash for you too, your friend is not going to look like a model. He's going to have none of the grace and softness of a woman, and none of the strength of a man. The few that become models, are models solely for the fact that transgender is trendy. They require expensive cosmetics and liberal use of photoshop to look passable as another gender. It wouldn't take me long to realize that a person has had extensive medical works to change the way they look. If it does, then they're wearing a lot of makeup, and again, it's sad that someone has to do that to feel like they aren't at odds with themselves. So, yeah, I would lose a lot of respect for them.


----------



## Ricky (Feb 18, 2013)

Troj said:


> There is evidence to suggest that  transsexualism isn't just a "delusion" that springs from "nowhere," or that is rooted in a simple desire to "escape" gender stereotypes. Transsexualism appears to have a solid biological basis.



... so does schizophrenia ;3


----------



## Golden (Feb 18, 2013)

-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> If that's what you believe even after watching the video Raptros posted for you, then there is *NO MORE DISCUSSION* with you on this subject. The only cure for your evil ways is to be purged from existence.


  Killing someone is much less evil than thinking transgender people are weird :V


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## Conker (Feb 18, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> Your friend's lacy thong is just one of the many things I would have to ignore on a daily basis


I should hope you wouldn't be looking at it, since you know, it's underwear and all.


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## Xaerun (Feb 18, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> I have a news flash for you too, your friend is not going to look like a model. He's going to have none of the grace and softness of a woman, and none of the strength of a man. The few that become models, are models solely for the fact that transgender is trendy. They require expensive cosmetics and liberal use of photoshop to look passable as another gender. It wouldn't take me long to realize that a person has had extensive medical works to change the way they look. If it does, then they're wearing a lot of makeup, and again, it's sad that someone has to do that to feel like they aren't at odds with themselves. So, yeah, I would lose a lot of respect for them.



OP if you're not up to the terrible task of letting your friend know Streetcircus has lost respect for them and doesn't find them attractive I will take on that heavy burden.

I know she's going to care an awful lot and it may devastate her, but I'll provide support as much as I can.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 18, 2013)

I know that furry is a hard to define group, but man...last I looked in the thesaurus was furry never a synonym for "open minded"


----------



## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 19, 2013)

Streetcircus said:


> I'm going to have to agree with Ricky and  Zerig on the video's lack of merit. It was a video made by a youtube  celebrity who doesn't have any actual insight on the topic of gender  identity. It's just his opinions with some quick-cuts and animations.  It's more entertainment than educational.



You bore me.



CaptainCool said:


> So much hatefull bullshit in this thread...
> "Drawing the line somewhere"? So helping people is wrong? We have the  possibility to actually help them today. That is amazing and we should  be grateful for that!
> No matter what your reasons are for being against this kind of therapy,  be it BS religious reasons or otherwise, in my book that makes you a  massive immoral assface who denies people their right to be happy.
> It doesn't affect your life in any sort of way. So STFU and deal with it!





Raptros said:


> Woah this thread...
> 
> That video I linked, youtube celeb or not, brings up very good points that some of you don't seem to understand. I'm  pretty sure he has a behind the scenes reaserch team as he does with  his science channels so no these are not just his opinions.
> 
> Oh and SC, we've been though this many, many times before and I'm quite  frankly tired of arguing with you as it always turns into a circular  debate.



I couldn't agree more.



Zerig said:


> I guess it was 2deep4me



I can't help it if your dick is to small.



Amy said:


> I've literally just signed up to the forum after being recomended it by a  friend who told me it was a great place, started looking around some of  the topics and was immediately drawn to this one, I myself being a  transgender woman.  However, once I started reading through some of the  comments people have made I suddenly find myself rethinking my decision  to joing Fur Affinity.  I'm shocked, appalled and disgusted by some of  the transphobic statements being made on this site.
> 
> These kind of comments, usually from backwards people who have little to  no nowledge of the issue and who simply refuse to see any kind of  reasone argument are the kind of people that make the world a poorer  place.  Trans people have to deal with an unbelievable amount of pain  and suffering from their dysphoria and don't ever need to be subjected  to hatefilled comments like some of the ones on display here.
> 
> ...



This  forum can be harsh. The best way to survive here is to have a strong  willpower and know how to stand up for what you believe in. Some people  are stubborn and will act like a cockhead for the sake of being a  cockhead, but don't let that get your spirits down. If someone wants to  be an asshole, you kick their face in and piss on their exposed brain.



Streetcircus said:


> He's asking what kind of women's underwear his friend should buy to make  him feel whole. Why should anyone feel grateful to help this person  pick out underpants he depends on to feel like a complete person? Don't  call people names when you have it so wrong.
> 
> Also, as I've said, everything you make public has an impact on the  world. If it enters my consciousness, it affects me. You cannot  determine that no harm can come from someone's behavior just because the  ill effects are not obvious. What can a grown man accomplish by putting  on women's undergarments other than to be intrusively tasteless?



Hmm,  a tender sensitive cry baby who's feelings can be hurt so easily by the  mere existence of people who are different. You must feel so alone .

You  should be easy prey when I come to your house when you're asleep, and  shove women's hormones up your ass. That should be extra effective  against you, since you're so afraid of anything to do with transsexuals.

I'm so evil :V.


----------



## TeenageAngst (Feb 19, 2013)

> This forum can be harsh. The best way to survive here is to have a strong willpower and know how to stand up for what you believe in. Some people are stubborn and will act like a cockhead for the sake of being a cockhead, but don't let that get your spirits down. If someone wants to be an asshole, you kick their face in and piss on their exposed brain.



Dragon avatar confirmed.


----------



## Toshabi (Feb 19, 2013)

-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> This  forum can be harsh. The best way to survive here is to have a strong  willpower and know how to stand up for what you believe in. Some people  are stubborn and will act like a cockhead for the sake of being a  cockhead, but don't let that get your spirits down. If someone wants to  be an asshole, you kick their face in and piss on their exposed brain.






-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> I'm so internet tough and cool :V.



Fix'd.


*IF I USE :V IT'LL MAKE ME SOUND COOL AND RELEVANT!*


----------



## DarrylWolf (Feb 19, 2013)

And another legitimate complaint is what do women born that way feel about those who "switch sides". Would they not feel about transwomen the same way black people feel about white guys who want to become black? In both cases, you would have to over-compensate because you would be trying to imitate people you only know secondhand information about. Just as my fursona is a basketball-playing soul music-loving black ethnic stereotype because I'm going on what I've observed (and I aslo want to assert his blackness), a transgendered person will end up in the opposite sex but he'll be so over-the-top in trying to prove his/her new identity that it would disturb his/her new friends.


----------



## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Dragon avatar confirmed.



Yep, now I know for sure what my fursona is.



Toshabi said:


> Dracimonde said:
> 
> 
> > I'm so internet tough and cool :V.



Forgery, eh? Tisk tisk ...



Toshabi said:


> *IF I USE :V IT'LL MAKE ME SOUND COOL AND RELEVANT!*



Totally 



DarrylWolf said:


> And another legitimate complaint is what do women born that way feel  about those who "switch sides". Would they not feel about transwomen the  same way black people feel about white guys who want to become black?  In both cases, you would have to over-compensate because you would be  trying to imitate people you only know secondhand information about.  Just as my fursona is a basketball-playing soul music-loving black  ethnic stereotype because I'm going on what I've observed (and I aslo  want to assert his blackness), a transgendered person will end up in the  opposite sex *but he'll be so over-the-top in trying to prove his/her  new identity that it would disturb his/her new friends.*



Not all transgenders are over the top.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 19, 2013)

Knock the internet tough guy act off, or I'm banning you as well. It's bad enough we have to deal with the trolls, we don't need the ogres either.


----------



## Batty Krueger (Feb 19, 2013)

Wow this thread so far...geez.
Anyway my friend in high school went mtf.  She's still just as fun to hang out with now as she was in high school.  Her only complaint was finding women's underwear that would fit the junk without it flopping out the sides, that always cracked me up. I believe she's still waiting to get the final part of her transition surgery, maybe it's already done.  I havnt talked I her in a while. Good for your friend though and helping out and ignore the temp banned fuckwits in the thread.  Doesn't matter what the subject is they always have something negative to say regardless.


----------



## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 19, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> Knock the internet tough guy act off, or I'm banning you as well. It's bad enough we have to deal with the trolls, we don't need the ogres either.



I'm not trying to be a tough guy the way you're describing it, I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do by standing up for transsexuals and fighting back against these obviously evil assholes who think it's perfectly ok to treat someone like a piece of shit based on their sexual nature. Are you seriously considering banning me when all I'm trying to do is stand up for people who need it? I'm a nice guy, and the only reason I'm sounding like an ass is because I have the courage to fight fire with fire. You don't see me talking like an ass to nice people do you? Hell, even what I said to Toshabi was friendly(ish), I was definitely being humorous in a friendly way when responding to him. The only time I *EVER* talk the way I did to *ANYONE* is if they're truly evil bastards who need to be spoken out against. No offense, but if you're really considering banning me, it makes me wonder why you even bothered banning those other guys.


----------



## Ricky (Feb 19, 2013)

-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> I'm not trying to be a tough guy the way you're describing it, I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do by standing up for transsexuals and fighting back against these obviously evil assholes who think it's perfectly ok to treat someone like a piece of shit based on their sexual nature. Are you seriously considering banning me when all I'm trying to do is stand up for people who need it? I'm a nice guy, and the only reason I'm sounding like an ass is because I have the courage to fight fire with fire. You don't see me talking like an ass to nice people do you? Hell, even what I said to Toshabi was friendly(ish), I was definitely being humorous in a friendly way when responding to him. The only time I *EVER* talk the way I did to *ANYONE* is if they're truly evil bastards who need to be spoken out against. No offense, but if you're really considering banning me, it makes me wonder why you even bothered banning those other guys.



You "*have the courage*" to fight fire with fire? _*COURAGE*_? Are you fucking kidding me? _*This is an internet forum.*_

I don't mean to rain on your self-righteous parade to fight all the evil people with bad opinions but you are sounding more ridiculous the more you post. Saying things like "I can't help it if your dick is to small" or resorting to name-calling won't win you any points and makes you look extremely childish. That's what Arshes is talking about; it is immature drivel and if your posts are going to devolve into that, don't let reality hit you on the ass on the way out. If you can keep your cool and post actual content everyone here will welcome you with open arms.

Okay, that might be stretching it *a bit* but you'll get a better reaction from people. Trust me.


----------



## Toshabi (Feb 19, 2013)

I feel like this topic was baited.




-={Dracimonde}=- said:


> I'm not trying to be a tough guy the way you're describing it, I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do by standing up for transsexuals and fighting back against these obviously evil assholes who think it's perfectly ok to treat someone like a piece of shit based on their sexual nature. Are you seriously considering banning me when all I'm trying to do is stand up for people who need it? I'm a nice guy, and the only reason I'm sounding like an ass is because I have the courage to fight fire with fire. You don't see me talking like an ass to nice people do you? Hell, even what I said to Toshabi was friendly(ish), I was definitely being humorous in a friendly way when responding to him. The only time I *EVER* talk the way I did to *ANYONE* is if they're truly evil bastards who need to be spoken out against. No offense, but if you're really considering banning me, it makes me wonder why you even bothered banning those other guys.




Draciboy, do you know what I'm going to get you for Christmas? A big wooden cross! That way every time you feel unappreciated for the sacrifices you've made to fight the good fight against these 'evil assholes', you can climb up onto it and nail yourself to it.


----------



## CaptainCool (Feb 19, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You "*have the courage*" to fight fire with fire? _*COURAGE*_? Are you fucking kidding me? _*This is an internet forum.*_
> 
> I don't mean to rain on your self-righteous parade to fight all the evil people with bad opinions but you are sounding more ridiculous the more you post. Saying things like "I can't help it if your dick is to small" or resorting to name-calling won't win you any points and makes you look extremely childish. That's what Arshes is talking about; it is immature drivel and if your posts are going to devolve into that, don't let reality hit you on the ass on the way out. If you can keep your cool and post actual content everyone here will welcome you with open arms.
> 
> Okay, that might be stretching it *a bit* but you'll get a better reaction from people. Trust me.



Personally I don't really think it matters where and in what fashion someone is standing up for others.
Stupidity and hate have to be fought on all fronts if we ever want to get some where as a united species. And that includes the internet.

Doing so in a childish way doesn't help though, in that regard you are absolutely right.


----------



## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 19, 2013)

Ricky said:


> You "*have the courage*" to fight fire with fire? _*COURAGE*_? Are you fucking kidding me? _*This is an internet forum.*_
> 
> I don't mean to rain on your self-righteous parade to fight all the evil people with bad opinions but you are sounding more ridiculous the more you post. Saying things like "I can't help it if your dick is to small" or resorting to name-calling won't win you any points and makes you look extremely childish. That's what Arshes is talking about; it is immature drivel and if your posts are going to devolve into that, don't let reality hit you on the ass on the way out. If you can keep your cool and post actual content everyone here will welcome you with open arms.
> 
> Okay, that might be stretching it *a bit* but you'll get a better reaction from people. Trust me.



Okay, I admit that "I can't help it if your dick is to small" comment was a bit over the top. I hate pretending to be an asshole for the sake of crushing real assholes. But it just bugs me that some people are that sick, society makes me gag. I'd feel like a jerk if I just stood by and said nothing. If it bugs you that much that I care to do the right thing (regardless of this being an internet forum) then I guess I should stop trying to make counter arguments against these people and just completely ignore everything they say. Happy? (probably not). But one thing you're not going to get me to do is to stop being friendly and supportive to the people who deserve it. FAF might as well tag me as the official forum *hugboxer* because that part of my personality is not going to change.



Toshabi said:


> Draciboy, do you know what I'm going to get you for Christmas? A big  wooden cross! That way every time you feel unappreciated for the  sacrifices you've made to fight the good fight against these 'evil  assholes', you can climb up onto it and nail yourself to it.



Due to the above statement I made, this is probably the last time I will respond to anything potentially negative you have to say.

I'm not meaning what im about to say as an insult, im just telling you my honest opinion on your attempts to be a troll. In my opinion (compared to some of the more extreme trolls i've seen) you are a wannabee troll. Half the things you post, I cant even figure out what you're trying to say (this is not a good quality to have as a legitimate troll), a lot of your insults (if they are really insults) are weak, meaningless, and give me a feeling of "meh". Reading a thread and then being interrupted by one of your posts is like having a conversation with someone and then suddenly losing your train of thought only to remember what you were about to say and return to the conversation within a few seconds. When I read your comments I don't get offended, I just think "huh?" and try to figure out what you meant and when I finally do, I just think "wow, he could've done better than that". Basically, you are a wannabee troll who does not have much talent being a troll, and you should either look into becoming a legitimate troll or give up on the whole thing all together, otherwise you're just going to look like and idiot (to me at least).

Again, this was not meant as an insult, just my honest opinion.

On the other hand, some of the things you say are actually pretty funny i.e "I'm going to feed you to my tarantula". One thing about most of your posts that's worthy of mentioning, is you add a little bit of humor to things, which really helps brighten your personality since your insults are not that effective. You've even been tagged as "loveable asshole" by either Gibby or Green_Knight (I cant remember which). In my opinion, the "asshole" part should be taken off and just leave you tagged as "loveable".

All in all, you are more of a nice guy than you are a mean one, and it's a pity you have to try to prove yourself as a troll.



CaptainCool said:


> Personally I don't really think it matters where and in what fashion someone is standing up for others.
> Stupidity and hate have to be fought on all fronts if we ever want to  get some where as a united species. And that includes the internet.
> 
> Doing so in a childish way doesn't help though, in that regard you are absolutely right.



Exactly. And I apologize for acting childish about this problem that society has. It needs to be solved, and It's time I started taking things more seriously.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 19, 2013)

Dude, you're not even talking about the OP's post anymore. Be quiet or get out.


----------



## Troj (Feb 19, 2013)

Ricky said:


> ... so does schizophrenia ;3



Ah, but schizophrenia falls through at the second lap, where I talk about reality-testing and general functioning.

Schizophrenics typically struggle big-time with daily functioning and reality-testing across domains and environments. Transsexuals only struggle with those aspects of their lives that relate to gender and sexuality, and their reality testing is typically solid. 

Anyway, the point there was debunk the notion that trans people are "just" being dramatic, or "just" don't want to conform to gender stereotypes. 

Gender identity appears to be more than just a pure social construct. 



			
				DarrylWolf said:
			
		

> a transgendered person will end up in the opposite sex but he'll be so  over-the-top in trying to prove his/her new identity that it would  disturb his/her new friends.



You either don't know many (or possibly, any) transgendered folks, or the ones you know have got them some issues that don't necessarily have to do with just being trans.

I've known a number of trans folks over the course of my life, and the majority are no more stereotypical and no more over-the-top than your standard cis (non-trans) person. 

Generally, the point and the objective is to blend in, rather than stand out by doing "drag."



> Looking a certain way is superficial. It's a matter of perception. Your  "friend" chooses to value what he thinks women are supposed to look like  so much that it causes him distress not to have it. I would love to be  taller, darker, fitter, and better looking, but I choose how important  those things are to me.



You're able to say this, but for people who feel a deep conviction that their physical appearance or presentation doesn't accurately represent who they feel they are or should be, it's a huge deal. The brain really does have an internal "map" of the body, and when the map doesn't match the territory, this can be deeply distressing. 

Now, on a daily basis, I'm also someone who thinks that people should tend to accept themselves as they are. But, I also realize that the brain has an internal "map" of the body, and when the map doesn't match the territory--that is, when you have a deep, innate sense of your body being "wrong," it's hard to just ignore or shake that feeling. As people have described it, the feeling can be so profound and so intense, it reaches the level of a deeply-held moral conviction. 

As someone who's previously worked with LGBTQ folk on a formal basis, it's rather irritating to me that people have chosen to just base their arguments on some straw-transman they've constructed in their heads. "Well, as _I _imagine them, a transperson would be this way..."


----------



## TeenageAngst (Feb 19, 2013)

Your cases would actually carry some weight if you managed to prove what you say, Troj, instead of just citing potentially skewed and dubiously detailed statistics.


----------



## Arshes Nei (Feb 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Your cases would actually carry some weight if you managed to prove what you say, Troj, instead of just citing potentially skewed and dubiously detailed statistics.



So how does one exactly prove that without your equally invalid argument of "lol statistics/stats are dumb"?

But really if you don't want to offer help, kindly stay out of the thread. It's been trashed enough.


----------



## TeenageAngst (Feb 19, 2013)

Arshes Nei said:


> So how does one exactly prove that without your equally invalid argument of "lol statistics/stats are dumb"?
> 
> But really if you don't want to offer help, kindly stay out of the thread. It's been trashed enough.



Statistics are valid, ham-handed statistics are invalid. As I said, it involves not just performing a comparison between a control group and a (supposedly) SRS, but you need a proportionally inverse statistic to go with it and subsequent follow-up tests using larger sample sizes and accounting for all outliers. For example, if transsexuals possess X biological trait, it must be present in 100% of the population of transsexuals to be considered a trait that's inherent to the condition. If it's not, say only 67% of the people who are transsexuals possess it, then it must be proportionally rare in people who are not transsexuals. If you have a control group that has a 40% occurrence of the trait, then you need to test a SRS that are known not to be transsexuals. If they're proportionally inverse to the control, that is, they're 67.5% less likely to have the trait than the control, then you have something to go on. That in and of itself does not prove the biological trait is inherent to transsexuals and it doesn't describe the trait at all, merely that there is a correlation. Larger samples would need to be gathered, increased rigidity in the testing procedures, and if outliers appeared they must be thoroughly documented and accounted for. You would need to prove there are no confounding variables in the tests, prove the causation of one variable to the other, and produce a working model based on your research for public scrutiny. It's called rigor and it's something that's almost entirely absent in the social sciences.


----------



## Ricky (Feb 19, 2013)

Troj said:


> Ah, but schizophrenia falls through at the second lap, where I talk about reality-testing and general functioning.



My point is you can't look at pictures of people's brains and start drawing conclusions from it.



Troj said:


> Gender identity appears to be more than just a pure social construct.



There are obvious differences between guys and girls that aren't social. You will find a biological basis for much of them. Still, "identity" _in itself_ is a social construct. If people are concerned with the way they appear to other people _that is_ a social issue and not a biological one.

I'm going out on a limb here and saying I think it's okay for a girl to be boyish or vice-verse. I bet you would find biological similarities there, as well. Someone who isn't comfortable with these characteristics doesn't suffer from a biological pathology; it's purely an issue of self-esteem or the way they see themselves fit into society.

Let's go through what you posted, just for fun...



			
				The First Link said:
			
		

> Prenatal exposure to androgens has been implicated in transsexualism *but the etiology of the condition remains unclear*.



So basically, we don't know what causes it. Wow, who knew.

We're really making progress now!



			
				The Second Link said:
			
		

> These data support _CYP17_ as a candidate gene of FtM transsexualism and indicate that loss of a female-specific _CYP17_ T âˆ’34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.



So let me get this straight. You're saying that variances in a gene that encodes a key enzyme in sex hormone production could have an effect on people's association with a specific gender? So, in other words, like... people are influenced by their hormones? Wow.



			
				The Third Link said:
			
		

> Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour3,4, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals.



Again, however interesting that might be all it says is there are similarities between people who associate with a specific gender and nothing about the way they see themselves fit into society. If someone thinks they need to change themselves to fit in I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. Therapy has proven to be good for a lot of people who feel this way, from what I've read. Still, I think you are kidding yourself if you say it's purely biological; identity is anything BUT purely "biological."


----------



## Troj (Feb 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> As I said, it involves not just performing a comparison between a  control group and a (supposedly) SRS, but you need a proportionally  inverse statistic to go with it and subsequent follow-up tests using  larger sample sizes and accounting for all outliers.



Yeah, which is a luxury not every researcher can afford, unfortunately.



> For example, if transsexuals possess X biological trait, it must be  present in 100% of the population of transsexuals to be considered a  trait that's inherent to the condition. If it's not, say only 67% of the  people who are transsexuals possess it, then it must be proportionally  rare in people who are not transsexuals.



Not necessarily.

First, you have to take into account that multiple forms or sub-types of transsexuality might exist, and/or that more than one potential cause of transsexuality might exist. 

Second, you might not see a perfect relationship between Gene X and Trait Y because the trait itself is multifactorial. Just as an example, the relationship between Gene X and Trait Y could be mediated, say, by epigenetic factors, or by additional genes, or by environmental factors, or mutations, or any number of things.



> You would need to prove there are no confounding variables in the tests,  prove the causation of one variable to the other, and produce a working  model based on your research for public scrutiny.



Ideally, absolutely, yes, all of these things should be done.



			
				Ricky said:
			
		

> I'm going out on a limb here and saying I think it's okay for a girl to  be boyish or vice-verse. I bet you would find biological similarities  there, as well. Someone who isn't comfortable with these characteristics  doesn't suffer from a biological pathology; it's purely an issue of  self-esteem or the way they see themselves fit into society.



Yes, but an effeminate male doesn't automatically think he is or should be a girl, and nor does a butch girl necessarily identify as male. The fruitiest gay men I know will still make no bones about being men, at the end of the day. They don't have a sense of being in the "wrong" body for them. Society sanctioning them for being effeminate is a separate issue.

So, not quite the same thing, since transsexuals typically don't feel they fit in society OR their own bodies. 



> So basically, we don't know what causes it. Wow, who knew.



Hey, if you want pat, quick, complete answers, then look to Religion. In Science, knowledge is often incomplete.

And, you conveniently ignored the first part of the sentence, where they said that _androgen exposure has been implicated in transsexualism. _Androgens may not "cause" it, but they appear to be associated with it in some manner that has yet to be discovered. 



> Still, I think you are kidding yourself if you say it's purely biological; identity is anything BUT purely "biological."



We may be splitting hairs here, or I may just be shifting the goal posts, but I said it appears to have a biological _basis_.

Environmental and social factors definitely shape the person's "narrative" of the problem--what they call it, their explanation for it, what they think might solve it--but the basic sense or feeling of just being in the "wrong" body may have a biological basis.

I know plenty of people who are pissed about gender stereotypes, or who don't want to conform to gender stereotypes who aren't transgendered. So, I don't think that kind of reductionism minimizes and mistranslates the "trans experience."



> Therapy has proven to be good for a lot of people who feel this way, from what I've read.



Depends on the mode or orientation of the therapy, and it depends on the personality and needs of the client, naturally.

Gender re-assignment isn't a magic bullet, either, unfortunately.

I know more about the fundamentals of therapy that tend to resonate with LGBTQ clients, than I know about the particular orientations or modalities that are used with them. (And, I know generally about the half-assed evangelical Christian "therapies" that don't hold water.)

Some other interesting stuff I just found:

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a                   Limbic Nucleus                

http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/brain-sex_critique.html

http://skepchick.org/2012/01/13-myths-and-misconceptions-about-trans-women-part-one

Well, and genes and hormones aside, everyone's just skated past what I think was my core point, which was: 




> My sense is also that if someone has the means and the ability to bring  their "outside" in sync with their "inside," and if this process will  allow them to lead a richer, happier, more successful life overall, and  isn't harmful to others, then who am I to quibble or bitch, just because  I might not personally understand, relate to, or share their dilemma?



That is to say, lots of people have dilemmas or issues I can't personally relate to, but this doesn't necessarily give me the automatic privilege to tell them that the dilemma is nonexistent, or irrelevant, or rooted in their moral or other shortcomings, especially if I have little or no background experience or knowledge of the issue. It certainly doesn't give me the automatic right to dictate to people how they should try to resolve that dilemma.


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## Ozriel (Feb 19, 2013)

A friend of mine went FtM years ago, and I swear, you could easily mistake him as a 12 year old kid. :V

A lot of issues arose from it...being the south and all, but he's still going strong.


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## Ozriel (Feb 19, 2013)

A friend of mine went FtM years ago, and I swear, you could easily mistake him as a 12 year old kid. :V

A lot of issues arose from it...being the south and all, but he's still going strong.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 19, 2013)

> Yeah, which is a luxury not every researcher can afford, unfortunately.



If you're not going to do something as important as rigorous scientific inquiry properly then why bother doing it at all. This isn't the fluffy end of academia slogged with multiple interpretations and the acceptance of mass extraneous material as acceptable content. This is science that launches other research, we want to glean a legitimate diagnosis from these discoveries. We want to be able to systematically prove why something is the way it is. Half-assed research isn't just useless, it's detrimental and is one of the reasons psychology is so poorly understood.



> Not necessarily.
> 
> First, you have to take into account that multiple forms or sub-types of transsexuality might exist, and/or that more than one potential cause of transsexuality might exist.
> 
> Second, you might not see a perfect relationship between Gene X and Trait Y because the trait itself is multifactorial. Just as an example, the relationship between Gene X and Trait Y could be mediated, say, by epigenetic factors, or by additional genes, or by environmental factors, or mutations, or any number of things.



Hence why confounding variables must be accounted for, which I already said.



> Ideally, absolutely, yes, all of these things should be done.



Then why in gods name aren't they the majority of the time. Whenever I see a psychological article it usually relates a dependent and independent variable with little to no mention of outliers being accounted for or possible confounding variables. The probability of correlation is generally not very strong either, and yet they draw conclusions from it. These are subjects of further research in and of themselves and shouldn't be used to draw conclusions about possible causes of things like transsexuality, much less be held up as proof of its biological connection!


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## Troj (Feb 19, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Then why in gods name aren't they the majority of the time. Whenever I see a psychological article it usually relates a dependent and independent variable with little to no mention of outliers being accounted for or possible confounding variables. The probability of correlation is generally not very strong either, and yet they draw conclusions from it. These are subjects of further research in and of themselves and shouldn't be used to draw conclusions about possible causes of things like transsexuality, much less be held up as proof of its biological connection!



To be fair, though, I posted the abstracts. There's only so much about the methodology of a study you can infer just from an abstract.

So, I agree with your critiques of and recommendations concerning research in general and in the abstract (ho!), but without having the full papers on hand, it's not clear to me, at least, whether those critiques fully apply to _these_ studies. (Unless you went and read the full papers somewhere, naturally.)

And, at the end of the day, a peer-reviewed study > opinions of people on the Internet (especially people who haven't had regular contact with the population or group being discussed). 

Practically _any_ formal exploration of the issue beats a bunch of young people idly opining that being transgendered is like being disappointed with your bad hair day or big nose, or that transgendered folks are just bummed about not getting to wear lacy panties.

That said, you sound like you know your stuff when it comes to research methodology, and so, seriously, props. It's something I've certainly had to work at, so I respect people who are skilled, informed, and above all, detail-oriented in that regard.



> If you're not going to do something as important as rigorous scientific inquiry properly then why bother doing it at all.



Lack of funding, small subject pools, non-representative subject pools, subject pools comprised of white college students, attrition, confounds...it's certainly not right, but it's what researchers have to grapple with, while conducting the most rigorous studies they can, with the resources they have. The perfect can't be allowed to become the enemy of the good.

Anyway, I don't want to have a debate about research methodology, because my primary interest _here and now_ is defending trans people against being unduly, needlessly, and senselessly dissed or discriminated against. When that's what's at stake, whether Snerdmeyer and Winkerbean had an n of 30 is tiny taters in the grand scheme of things.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 20, 2013)

Troj said:


> To be fair, though, I posted the abstracts. There's only so much about the methodology of a study you can infer just from an abstract.
> 
> So, I agree with your critiques of and recommendations concerning research in general and in the abstract (ho!), but without having the full papers on hand, it's not clear to me, at least, whether those critiques fully apply to _these_ studies. (Unless you went and read the full papers somewhere, naturally.)
> 
> ...



I've read several articles through the databases available to me through the college library. What I've found is basically that there's a distinct gap in the physical and social sciences. The exceptions being biology, which tends to be kind of hit or miss due to the nature of there being *lots* of external variables all acting at once that are impossible to fully account for, but even that area of science has hard indisputable facts backed by thorough statistics measuring large populations under both laboratory and natural conditions. The formula used to measure changes in allelic frequency in a given population for instance. Also economics, which although a social science deals primarily with the numbers end of things and thus has tons of recorded, accessible, detailed and highly-populated samples at its disposal.



> Lack of funding, small subject pools, non-representative subject pools, subject pools comprised of white college students, attrition, confounds...it's certainly not right, but it's what researchers have to grapple with, while conducting the most rigorous studies they can, with the resources they have. The perfect can't be allowed to become the enemy of the good.



And we can't allow malformed studies to distort our reasoning. We do not perform science to reach a moral conclusion, we perform it to understand and define the world around us. Mathematics is perfect, physics is perfect within extremely fine tolerances, as is chemistry and large portions of biology. Why should psychology be exempt from this goal? Because the research is difficult? That just means whatever legitimate data we gather is that much more precious, not that we allow anyone with grant money, enough time, and a "reasonable" sample given their "circumstances" to go around claiming they're making profound findings in the field. Jesus, these are the things that lead to the poisoning of hundreds of thousands of children with unnecessary mind-altering medication and gave us such wonderful treatments as electroshock therapy.



> Anyway, I don't want to have a debate about research methodology, because my primary interest _here and now_ is defending trans people against being unduly, needlessly, and senselessly dissed or discriminated against. When that's what's at stake, whether Snerdmeyer and Winkerbean had an n of 30 is tiny taters in the grand scheme of things.



My argument is that it's a psychological condition that's not properly being addressed and is being poorly treated through detrimental and expensive physiological alterations. Your argument is that it's untreatable as a psychological disorder, while your evidence has proven that modern psychology can't even properly define the causes and mechanisms at work let alone begin to explain how it is *not* a treatable psychological condition. I think 50 years from now we're going to look back and transsexual procedures today in the same way we look back at the thalidomide children.


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## AshleyAshes (Feb 20, 2013)

I rather enjoy seeing the angry guy, who doesn't get along with his family and can barely manage to get through community college, try to argue about which scientific disciplines are valid and which are not.


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## Troj (Feb 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> And we can't allow malformed studies to distort our reasoning. We do not perform science to reach a moral conclusion, we perform it to understand and define the world around us. Mathematics is perfect, physics is perfect within extremely fine tolerances, as is chemistry and large portions of biology. Why should psychology be exempt from this goal? Because the research is difficult? That just means whatever legitimate data we gather is that much more precious, not that we allow anyone with grant money, enough time, and a "reasonable" sample given their "circumstances" to go around claiming they're making profound findings in the field. Jesus, these are the things that lead to the poisoning of hundreds of thousands of children with unnecessary mind-altering medication and gave us such wonderful treatments as electroshock therapy.



This is a cogent point. Sloppy research can lead to actual harm.

I also don't know much about how other sciences grapple with confounds and obstacles; I just know about the ones people discuss in my general area, and how they attempt to control or compensate for them.



> My argument is that it's a psychological condition that's not properly being addressed and is being poorly treated through detrimental and expensive physiological alterations.



I agree that it's not being properly addressed, and I agree that the physiological alterations _may_ be unnecessary, besides being obviously expensive and invasive.

But, I also think that if someone wants to pursue that course of treatment, they should be able to do so. It clearly works for some people, and not for others. 

In theory, I'm receptive to any ethical, safe, and empirically-supported treatment or therapy which might help people to gain a sense of coherence.



> Your argument is that it's untreatable as a psychological disorder, while  your evidence has proven that modern psychology can't even properly  define the causes and mechanisms at work let alone begin to explain how  it is *not* a treatable psychological condition.



Eh, not quite, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I definitely didn't say it was "untreatable."

By bringing in biology and my personal experiences, I wanted to debunk the notion that being transgendered is just a "choice" or a "preference" or a "self-esteem problem."

I also wanted to debunk the notion that trans people are just "nuts," "crazy," or "delusional," like your garden-variety psychotic who thinks they're a chair, and that the government is spying on them using black helicopters. 

My number one priority is making sure that trans people can "bridge the gap" in a way that ideally gives them lasting peace, satisfaction, and mental and physical health, and helps them to feel whole. 

I'm always on guard against any potential or proposed "cures" or "treatments" (especially religious ones!) which would mostly involve encouraging trans people (or gays, for that matter) to deny their feelings and concerns, and just "try harder" to be "normal."

So, I just don't want people to be glib or dismissive about this issue, is all, and I want to make sure that trans people have access to all of the best resources, tools, treatments, and therapies that are currently available, and which hold any promise of being able provide help and solace. 

If we start discouraging trans people from seeking gender reassignment surgery, it should be because we've developed and tested some treatment with an greater success rate, and a much lower level and probability of risk, and _not_ just because we personally believe gender reassignment is weird, dumb, crazy, or expensive; or because it's "unfair" that otherkin and therians can't get surgery to correct _their_ species dysphoria; or because we falsely believe that trans people are "psychotic" or "delusional," and just need to be treated like paranoid schizophrenics. 

I've gotten into debates with folks who were a little _too_ gung ho for reassignment surgery, to the point where they had a seriously-skewed perception of its success rate, and of the level of risk involved. There's no magic bullet here (currently). 

Thanks for articulating and clarifying your argument, so that I didn't start to equate it with other arguments that have popped up in the thread. I don't always exactly remember who said what, so that's why I start attributing the wrong arguments or attitudes to the wrong people.

EDIT: Oh, and because I was trying to get to bed, I didn't mention HRT. I feel similarly about HRT--it clearly seems to work for some people, and not for others, and the people for whom it could or will likely work should be encouraged or allowed to pursue that avenue. Same story as above, pretty much.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 20, 2013)

> I also wanted to debunk the notion that trans people are just "nuts," "crazy," or "delusional."




There's definitely underlying causes, both biological and psychological, stemming from the environment, early childhood development, genetics, and various chemical abnormalities. Kind of like homosexuality. It's also true we know about a hill of jack as to what specifically these are and why they happen the way they do.




> My number one priority is making sure that trans people can "bridge the gap" in a way that ideally gives them lasting peace, satisfaction, and mental and physical health, and helps them to feel whole.



Somehow that equates to expensive, invasive, potentially risky surgery and a lifetime of hormonal therapy for mediocre results.




> I'm always on guard against any potential or proposed "cures" or "treatments" (especially religious ones!) which would mostly involve encouraging trans people (or gays, for that matter) to deny their feelings and concerns, and just "try harder" to be "normal."



Naturally.




> If we start discouraging trans people from seeking gender reassignment surgery, it should be because we've developed and tested some treatment with an greater success rate, and a much lower risk, and





> _not just because, say, we personally believe gender reassignment is weird, dumb, crazy, or expensive, or because it's "unfair" that otherkin and therians can't get surgery to correct theirspecies dysphoria, or because we falsely believe that trans people are "psychotic" or "delusional," and just need to be treated like paranoid schizophrenics._



This is where we differ. The treatments we have available are too detrimental to be suggested off the cuff. I'm of the opinion, and it's been hinted at by others, that transexuality is a spectrum much like homosexuality. However, while the medical treatments aren't really an all-or-nothing thing, they tend to lean that way and they are by and large irreversible, expensive, and potentially damaging to the person's health. It seems to me that through proper education about the condition, counseling, and therapy, we should encourage transexuals to essentially see if they can essentially put their condition "on ice" until either conditions in the medical field improve or they're absolutely sure they want to go through with the procedures. It's unheard of for such drastic medical procedures to be taken on any patient until all the lesser treatment options are properly exhausted, provided the condition is not life-threatening. Whenever I see a transexual "come out" it's immediately followed by talk about seeing a doctor about hormonal therapies and discussion of surgery as if that's the ultimate answer. It might not be the best thing for them. If it is in fact a spectrum, what happens if the person isn't far enough along to benefit from sex-reassignment but would benefit from other, less invasive changes in their gender identity? What happens if it turns out later that we can treat the condition with medication, or if sexual-reassignment ends up significantly increasing cancer risks?

There are simply too many unknowns for me to be supportive of it as the go-to treatment option. Of course the individual themselves has the right to do with their own body what they want, I already said what they do to themselves is none of my business, but it's ridiculous to think I need to be supportive of it given this context.



> I rather enjoy seeing the angry guy, who doesn't get along with his family and can barely manage to get through community college, try to argue about which scientific disciplines are valid and which are not.



I graduated with a 3.68 gpa thank you very much.


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## Troj (Feb 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> [/COLOR]
> There's definitely underlying causes, both biological and psychological, stemming from the environment, early childhood development, genetics, and various chemical abnormalities. Kind of like homosexuality. It's also true we know about a hill of jack as to what specifically these are and why they happen the way they do.



Valid and fair. We have some good clues and solid indicators, but much is left to be discovered still.



> However, while the medical treatments aren't really an all-or-nothing  thing, they tend to lean that way and they are by and large  irreversible, expensive, and potentially damaging to the person's  health.



True.

BUT, on the other side, certain people who go through that irreversible, expensive, and potentially-risky process come out infinitely happier and more at peace with themselves, and certain people who are _not _allowed to go through that process sometimes suffer from lifelong depression, anxiety, despair, and poor-self-esteem, and some even attempt or commit suicide.

It's also important to point out that transitioning can consist of any combination of various components. Some people do HRT, but not a vaginoplasty or genitoplasty. Some people have facial reconstruction surgery, or surgery to reduce their Adam's apple (if they have one), and others do not. There's no one set way to go about transitioning.

Assessing whether transitioning overall "works" for people is tricky, because you're looking at different potential combinations of various procedures and interventions.



> It seems to me that through proper education about the condition,  counseling, and therapy, we should encourage transexuals to essentially  see if they can essentially put their condition "on ice" until either  conditions in the medical field improve or they're absolutely sure they  want to go through with the procedures.



It's standard practice in medical and psychiatric settings places to encourage the person go through a waiting, "trial" (where they have to live as the opposite sex for an extended period of time), and/or assessment period before receiving the green light for an actual procedure. 



> Whenever I see a transexual "come out" it's immediately followed by talk  about seeing a doctor about hormonal therapies and discussion of  surgery as if that's the ultimate answer. It might not be the best thing  for them.



I'd agree that the discussion should be more about what the trans person wishes to do, and what the various options are, as opposed "now, here's what happens next." (I wish more doctors' visits, period, were about helping the patient to actually explore their options and make their own informed choices.)



> What happens if it turns out later that we can treat the condition with  medication, or if sexual-reassignment ends up significantly increasing  cancer risks?



Valid questions! It means we'll have to re-assess the path we're on, definitely.



> There are simply too many unknowns for me to be supportive of it as the  go-to treatment option. Of course the individual themselves has the  right to do with their own body what they want, I already said what they  do to themselves is none of my business, but it's ridiculous to think I  need to be supportive of it given this context.



Depends on what you mean by "supportive," I think.

If a trans person comes up to me, and says, "I did X, Y, and Z to transition, and I couldn't be happier now," then I'm being a pedantic dick if I want to quibble over efficacy rates, or the price of surgery, or something else related to my personal feelings about transitioning at that juncture.

If a trans person approaches me, and says, "I've chosen to pursue the following course of action," then I need to try to be supportive, without being gung-ho, and I need to try my best to help that person talk out their feelings and explore their options. Again, just dropping the "your plan won't work" bomb into the conversation would be insensitive and rude. 

But, if you mean that you shouldn't automatically have to embrace SRS or HRT or what have you whole-hog with zero reservations or caveats, I agree, because it's reasonable to have concerns.


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## Ricky (Feb 20, 2013)

Troj - I think you helped me to understand things a bit better, thanks. People were just born in the wrong bodies.

It makes you wonder whose body it was 

Maybe they go the opposite way, too.

For every tranny there is an equal and opposite...


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## Troj (Feb 20, 2013)

Ricky, my pleasure!

(Now, you make me wonder if anyone might be willing to trade with _me_...preferably somebody taller... ).

Oh, and for those interested, this classic case of a boy whose gender was reassigned after his penis was mangled during circumcision is also intriguing, tragic, thought-provoking, and serves as a cautionary tale against taking these matters too lightly:

David Reimer


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 20, 2013)

> BUT, on the other side, certain people who go through that irreversible, expensive, and potentially-risky process come out infinitely happier and more at peace with themselves, and certain people who are _not allowed to go through that process sometimes suffer from lifelong depression, anxiety, despair, and poor-self-esteem, and some even attempt or commit suicide._



Sometimes I can't help but wonder if that's compartmentalization. Like there are lots of reasons the people are anxious and depressed, but they entirely attribute it to their gender issues because it's the biggest elephant in the room.



> Depends on what you mean by "supportive," I think.
> 
> If a trans person comes up to me, and says, "I did X, Y, and Z to transition, and I couldn't be happier now," then I'm being a pedantic dick if I want to quibble over efficacy rates, or the price of surgery, or something else related to my personal feelings about transitioning at that juncture.
> 
> ...



Utterly ridiculous. If a person I know is about to go through with a stupid life-altering decision, I'm going to call them out on it regardless of how happy they are at the time. People joining the military, people buying a car that is going to break in a year for tens of thousands of dollars, people buying homes with their ex-girlfriend on the mortgage, people going to college on student loans for an art degree, people getting trans-gender surgery without thoroughly exploring all possible options, etc.

I'd be lying if I just nodded my head and went along with it. Furthermore I'd be adding to the problem by pretending to be supportive of it. I respect their right to do whatever they want with their lives, but to say I should just be supportive *for their feelings* when so much is at stake strikes me as completely alien.

Lemme put it this way, if I'd decided I wanted a big tattoo across my entire arm which of these people would be my friend: The one offering to drive me to the parlor? Or the one saying, "That's ridiculous. You wait 2 years, and when you're coming back from a job interview, you tell me if that still sounds like a good idea."


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## Troj (Feb 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Sometimes I can't help but wonder if that's compartmentalization. Like there are lots of reasons the people are anxious and depressed, but they entirely attribute it to their gender issues because it's the biggest elephant in the room.



And, sometimes there are. I've known transfolk who _also_ suffered, or appeared to suffer from anxiety, depression, or bipolar disorder. (But, this can also be a chicken-and-egg dilemma, because it can be hard to tell whether the anxiety or depression stems in whole, in part, or not at all from the gender dysphoria.)

I've even known people I'd tend to call "pseudo"-transfolk, because it seemed to me like their pain and angst was actually rooted in some kind of mood, identity, self-esteem, or body dysmorphic disorder that _actually _didn't have to do with gender or sex, really, but which they weren't able to name or put a finger on otherwise.

And, of course, their are transfolk whose anxiety, pain, or depression is or was seemingly rooted in their gender dysphoria, because once they resolved the disconnect, and/or once people accepted them the way they wanted to be accepted, the symptoms abated, and the pain went away.



> Utterly ridiculous. If a person I know is about to go through with a  stupid life-altering decision, I'm going to call them out on it  regardless of how happy they are at the time. People joining the  military, people buying a car that is going to break in a year for tens  of thousands of dollars, people buying homes with their ex-girlfriend on  the mortgage, people going to college on student loans for an art  degree, people getting trans-gender surgery without thoroughly exploring  all possible options, etc.



The question you have to ask yourself at the start, though, is whether you're worried, concerned, or disapproving because you have a special kind of life experience, knowledge, or foresight that the other person either doesn't have, or isn't using, or because the person's choice or behavior rubs up against your own sensibilities, values, or preferences, or both.

When a teenage kid wants to tattoo "FUCKFACE" on his forehead, most adults will take him aside and try to discourage him, because most adults are able to look ahead to when that kid will be applying to college, or looking for a job, or just generally trying to make a good first impression. The kid's not thinking of that. 

When a friend wants to buy a new car or a new fursuit, even though it'll obviously plunge them into crippling debt, we're worried that our friend is making an impulsive, dumb decision that will put them out on the street.

This is different than if I advise my friend not to get a tattoo just because I'm scared of needles and think body mod shops are seedy-looking, or tell them they shouldn't get a fursuit, because furries are weird and creepy. In _those _cases, I'm being solipsistic, because I'm assuming that my friend shares my values, beliefs, needs, and interests, or that they should. And, in that kind of situation, my fear or concern that my friend's decision is "bad" or "wrong" or "dangerous" is much more likely to turn out to be a false positive. 

While my friend may reject my advice or ignore my concern in either scenario, he'll be _much_ _more_ likely to do so if he feels that I don't understand or sympathize with his point of view, his needs, and his values.

Long story short, it's well, right, and good to be concerned about the ethics, logistics, price tag, and risks of HRT or SRS from a general or objective standpoint, but if you want to be truly, genuinely helpful towards and supportive of a trans person, you also have to have and demonstrate a modicum of understanding and empathy for what it's like to be _them_.

Bottom line: If you're not careful, a transperson _may interpret your advice_ to them as, basically, "You shouldn't do that thing that you think will provide you with a sense of wholeness and closure for the first time in your life, and that will make you not want to kill yourself anymore, because gee whiz, I sure wouldn't want to cut off _my _dick, and it's really damn expensive! Are you sure not hating yourself and wanting to die every day is worth _that kind of money, dude?_"

*I'm not saying you'd put it like that*, but _that's how it might be heard_, depending, if one doesn't approach the matter delicately. You're not just dealing with someone who wants to spend money for fun; you're dealing with someone who may be in psychological pain, and is trying their best to seek relief for that pain. So, it requires a careful touch.

You also need to remember that the person may have already done some or even, a lot of research before talking to you, so they may also be offended and annoyed if you tell them stuff they already know (e.g., surgery is complicated and expensive). You have to gauge the other person's knowledge level before barreling ahead. 

Well, and my first scenario above involved a hypothetical transperson who has _already transitioned, _or is at least halfway or mostly through the process. That ship has already sailed, and that money's been spent. If that person says they're happy and healthy, you (generic you) _are _potentially approaching "pedantic dick" territory if you try to lecture them about the choice they _should_ have made. 

And, finally, the type and level of advice you give someone always depends (or should, anyway) on your relationship with them (obviously, I hope?). If an acquaintance at a party is telling you about the decisions they've made that strike you as weird and dumb, yes, you should probably smile and nod, because you don't really know that person from Adam. Friends and family are a different story, of course (and there are even situations where you just need to let friends or family stew in their own mess).



> Lemme put it this way, if I'd decided I wanted a big tattoo across my  entire arm which of these people would be my friend: The one offering to  drive me to the parlor? Or the one saying, "That's ridiculous. You wait  2 years, and when you're coming back from a job interview, you tell me  if that still sounds like a good idea."



Ideally, the _most helpful_ friend would be the one who'd sit down with you, ask you why you wanted a tattoo, listen to your answer, help you weigh the pros and cons of getting the tattoo, share their concerns, and then leave you to make your own choice. 

The friend who just drives you to the tattoo parlor no questions asked is an enabler, and you may rebuff or ignore the friend who just tells you not to go through with it.


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## Ricky (Feb 20, 2013)

Troj said:


> I've even known people I'd tend to call "pseudo"-transfolk, because it seemed to me like their pain and angst was actually rooted in some kind of mood, identity, self-esteem, or body dysmorphic disorder that _actually _didn't have to do with gender or sex, really, but which they weren't able to name or put a finger on otherwise.



I'm pretty sure a friend of mine is doing it because she thinks it's a fad. Of course I don't know what is going through her head but seeing how we were pretty much dating (when she was a he) I have a pretty good idea. That said, she likes doing things like that, mostly for attention, and I'm not going to say a thing. Even if I did she would still do it; you're talking about a cub that runs around in half-shirts and a diaper sticking 3" out from her ass. Yay, attention! At least she pulls the trans thing off well. I have to admit she makes a pretty hot chick.

Another friend of mine is going through the hormones and surgery (I think she made the previous one jealous) and although I know she is trans and has always been, she never seemed depressed about it. Still, I know it's what she wants... so whatever.

Also, thanks for bringing some rationality to the other side of this discussion. Most people just flip out and leave.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 20, 2013)

> The question you have to ask yourself at the start, though, is whether you're worried, concerned, or disapproving because you have a special kind of life experience, knowledge, or foresight that the other person either doesn't have, or isn't using, or because the person's choice or behavior rubs up against your own sensibilities, values, or preferences, or both.



Usually it's both. I tend not to like financially and personally destructive things (with a handful of glaring and obvious exceptions) and find them somewhat offensive. I'm reminded when I was listening to a coworker talk about music some years ago. He mentioned one band he really liked, and I was like, "Really? Man, that's like my favorite metal band!" and he replied, "Imagine that, we both like good music. What are the odds?" I could tell he was doing it just to be a dick, but under the acid there was a point in there. If you're going to feel strongly about something it should have some substance behind it. You can exaggerate that substance by how much of a pet peeve it is but you at least need a leg to stand on.



> This is different than if I advise my friend not to get a tattoo just because I'm scared of needles and think body mod shops are seedy-looking, or tell them they shouldn't get a fursuit, because furries are weird and creepy. In _those cases__, I'm being solipsistic, because I'm assuming that my friend shares my values, beliefs, needs, and interests, or that they should. And, in that kind of situation, my fear or concern that my friend's decision is "bad" or "__wrong__" or "dangerous" is much more likely to turn out to be a false positive.
> _



"You shouldn't get a fursuit because furries are weird and creepy."

"That's just, like, your opinion, man. I think it'll look hella tight."

"Why are we friends?"

Extrapolate from there, and you have my approach to stuff that rubs me the wrong way. If I can't remove it, I remove myself from it. If neither is possible it's usually either constant friction or both sides start making concessions.



> Long story short, it's well, right, and good to be concerned about the ethics, logistics, price tag, and risks of HRT or SRS from a general or objective standpoint, but if you want to be truly, genuinely helpful towards and supportive of a trans person, you also have to have and demonstrate a modicum of understanding and empathy for what it's like to be _them._



Assuming I gave a damn beyond the practical. I can't think of many situations where I would want to grow closer to the point of stifling my own opinions to someone with a proven background of questionable life and financial decisions.



> Bottom line: If you're not careful, a transperson _may interpret your advice to them as, basically, "You shouldn't do that thing that you think will provide you with a sense of wholeness and closure for the first time in your life, and that will make you not want to kill yourself anymore, because gee whiz, I sure wouldn't want to cut off my dick, and it's really damn expensive! Are you sure not hating yourself and wanting to die every day is worth that kind of money, dude?"_



If someone interprets it that way, that only reinforces my opinion that transsexuals have compounding psychological issues that negatively affect their judgement.



> And, finally, the type and level of advice you give someone always depends (or should, anyway) on your relationship with them. If an acquaintance at a party is telling you about the decisions they've made that strike you as weird and dumb, yes, you should probably smile and nod, because you don't really know that person from Adam. Friends and family are a different story, of course (and there are even situations where you just need to let friends or family stew in their own mess).



I'm letting my family stew in their own mess, have been for the better part of two years, the useless plebs. Anyway, smiling and nodding is for chumps. If they're putting their opinion or lifestyle out there, they'd best be willing to back it up.


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## Ricky (Feb 20, 2013)

Too many people smile and nod.

That said, TA -- even though I am somewhat inclined to believe there are deeper underlying issues here, and that much of it stems from social pressure from what we see as "gender norms" I would not be objective to just believe that without enough evidence to support it.

I don't know what goes on in other people's heads and trying to, especially when it's something like this, often proves to be an exercise in futility.

I still find it interesting though. People interest me a lot of the time because they are often (well, sometimes) hard to figure out. I just try really hard not to let my own proclivities of projection get in the way because it is only human nature to try and jump to conclusions in order to pass judgment on people.


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## Troj (Feb 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> I tend not to like financially and personally destructive things (with a handful of glaring and obvious exceptions) and find them somewhat offensive.



I feel the same way--but, then, I realize that some of the choices I tend to define as "personally and financially destructive," others see as normal and acceptable.

There's also a point at which I need to just let people to lead their own lives and make their own choices. 



> Assuming I gave a damn beyond the practical. I can't think of many situations where I would want to grow closer to the point of stifling my own opinions to someone with a proven background of questionable life and financial decisions.



We're still talking about someone who's seeking SRT and HRS, right? In which case, why must that _necessarily_ translate into having a "proven background of questionable life and financial decisions?" That's painting a rather large group of people with a pretty broad brush, isn't it?

Again, a sex change operation or a round of hormone therapy=! a Hummer or a pair of Manolo Blaaaaaaaahniks.



> If someone interprets it that way, that only reinforces my opinion that  transsexuals have compounding psychological issues that negatively  affect their judgement.



If someone sincerely believes that something will secure or insure their happiness, survival, well-being, livelihood, or safety--whether rightly, or wrongly--and you say, "Meh, nah," then, yes, that person will tend to react negatively to that. 

If said person is concerned that you're actively trying to block them from that thing, they may react _very_ poorly, because some part of their limbic system will tell them that you are _threatening their survival.

_This extends well above and beyond just transfolk. 

Well, and it occurs to me that we're on another slippery slope here, because lots of medications have awful side effects, and can be quite pricey over the long term. Do we start telling people they ought to forgo their Prozac, their Strattera, or their Haldol, because there must be _some way in theory_ they can potentially manage without it? 

If a trans person truly believes that HRT or SRS will help to alleviate their pain and anguish, and that's not good enough, what's our standard for determining, in general, that someone's attempt or plan to alleviate their pain is "worth it" or "good enough?"



> If they're putting their opinion or lifestyle out there, they'd best be willing to back it up.



Well, and serious question: what do you hope to gain from confronting a person about their dumb opinion or incorrect lifestyle, especially, say, a stranger or acquaintance?


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 20, 2013)

> We're still talking about someone who's seeking SRT and HRS, right? In which case, why must that _necessarily translate into having a "proven background of questionable life and financial decisions?" That's painting a rather large group of people with a pretty broad brush, isn't it?
> 
> Again, a sex change operation or a round of hormone therapy=! a Hummer or a pair of Manolo Blaaaaaaaahniks._



A Hummer is actually a pretty interesting car, pretty cheap these days too because of the stigma. Anyway, it doesn't necessarily, but I'm being prudent.



> Well, and it occurs to me that we're on another slippery slope here, because lots of medications have awful side effects, and can be quite pricey over the long term. Do we start telling people they ought to forgo their Prozac, their Strattera, or their Haldol, because there must be _some way in theory they can potentially manage without it?
> _



I quit my antidepressants because I figured I could manage without them and because the side effects were a pain in the ass. I stopped cold turkey after a new medication nearly put me into the hospital and never looked back. Had someone in my life had the stones to tell me that I didn't need medication to sort my life out those two years of my life woulda been a lot less numb and frustrating.



> If a trans person truly believes that HRT or SRS will help to alleviate their pain and anguish, and that's not good enough, what's our standard for determining, in general, that someone's attempt or plan to alleviate their pain is "worth it" or "good enough?"



Clinical diagnosis. We don't go carving out cancer all willy-nilly, we don't treat patients with steroidal medication without a damn good firmly backed reason for it. This is why proper science is absolutely necessary.


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## Ricky (Feb 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Clinical diagnosis. We don't go carving out cancer all willy-nilly, we don't treat patients with steroidal medication without a damn good firmly backed reason for it. This is why proper science is absolutely necessary.



You're in America. You're asking WAY too much ;3

Half the people I know who get meds for depression and social anxiety don't even leave their basement.


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## AshleyAshes (Feb 20, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Clinical diagnosis. We don't go carving out cancer all willy-nilly, we don't treat patients with steroidal medication without a damn good firmly backed reason for it. This is why proper science is absolutely necessary.



But they do... There's a clinical diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-IV.  There's also the 'Standards Of Care' which exist informally but are almost universally followed which sets out timelines and milestones that must be reached before different things can be done or prescribed.  This includes 2 years of living in the 'target gender role' before anyone will 'cut anything off'.

On top of that, a great deal of doctors won't touch the topic with a ten foot pole, fearing that they'll be held accountable 'THAT MAN CUT OFF MAH CRAZY PENIS, I WANT FOUTY BAJILLION DOLLARS FROM HIM MR. JUDGE.  MALPRACTICE!' and it's instead defered to specialists willing to focus on transgender treatment and not worry about doing it half assed and letting some crackpot through.


Totally unrelated, does anyone else read TA and CF's posts and start wondering if they're the same person going all 'Two-Face' on us? I'm tellin' ya, both these numbskulls argue exactly alike, from perspectives of near total ignorance and do it in the most long winded way possible.  I think we should just call them 'CannonAngst' now.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 20, 2013)

Asherlee, I've already been over the notion that psychiatry is legal quackery when it comes to legitimate diagnosis. These are the people that will diagnose medication for children based on a 5 minute interview. They're unfit to practice and their research is sketchy.

Also:



> Well, and serious question: what do you hope to gain from confronting a person about their dumb opinion or incorrect lifestyle, especially, say, a stranger or acquaintance?



Depends, what do they have to gain from bringing it to bear in the first place?


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## Troj (Feb 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Had someone in my life had the stones to tell me that I didn't need medication to sort my life out those two years of my life woulda been a lot less numb and frustrating.



Well, like with a lot of things, some folks don't need it, and some people do. 

That some people who don't need to be on medication are given prescriptions for it anyway is a whole 'nother discussion unto itself. I'm sorry you ended up in a tunnel that it took two years to climb out of .



> Clinical diagnosis. We don't go carving out cancer all willy-nilly, we  don't treat patients with steroidal medication without a damn good  firmly backed reason for it. This is why proper science is absolutely  necessary.



'Kay, fair enough. But:



			
				AshleyAshes said:
			
		

> But they do... There's a clinical diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder  in the DSM-IV.  There's also the 'Standards Of Care' which exist  informally but are almost universally followed which sets out timelines  and milestones that must be reached before different things can be done  or prescribed.  This includes 2 years of living in the 'target gender  role' before anyone will 'cut anything off'.



This. I even alluded broadly to those milestones a couple of pages ago, though Ashley went into more detail.

Also, what do you do if the "best" solution or treatment available for something still has notable risks, or a low success rate, or hasn't gone through a sufficient number of clinical tests? What should inform our judgement of whether the benefits outweigh the risks, or vice versa?

Cancer's a decent example of this, since chemo is nasty stuff, and isn't a guaranteed cure for cancer.

Of course, now I have to point out that we're actually moving between _two _separate discussions here: 1) How we as clinicians and/or researchers should approach or test treatments or therapies, and and 2) How we as individuals ought to interact with other individuals who are considering or seeking those treatments, or have already done so.



			
				Ricky said:
			
		

> Half the people I know who get meds for depression and social anxiety don't even leave their basement.



Half the people I know who get psychotropic meds, period, have been prescribed every drug in the book, and then some, in many cases with little or, in some cases, no visible improvement . 

Welcome to the wild and wacky world of psychopharmacology. 



			
				TeenageAngst said:
			
		

> Depends, what do they have to gain from bringing it to bear in the first place?



People choose to share things about themselves for any number of reasons--but, many _aren't_ looking for advice or a fight, is the thing. 

Me, I don't necessarily interpret someone sharing or stating something as an invitation to debate them or advise them. I typically wait for other, additional signals or flags before I do that. I also believe that there are some arguments and fights in life that just simply aren't worth having, even if you somehow "win" them in the end. That's my general approach.



			
				TeenageAngst said:
			
		

> Asherlee, I've already been over the notion that psychiatry is legal  quackery when it comes to legitimate diagnosis. These are the people  that will diagnose medication for children based on a 5 minute  interview. They're unfit to practice and their research is sketchy.



A field having quacks and cranks in it doesn't necessarily negate the legitimacy of that field. (Especially since every field has its share of quacks and cranks.) People playing inappropriately fast-and-loose with a diagnostic system doesn't necessarily negate everything about that system--particularly when people have been advised or instructed _not to use the system in that manner._ This is why assessments have standardized norms, and various therapeutic orientations have protocols and manuals. 

My sense is that a flawed, incomplete, or "growing" system or heuristic that is still continually undergoing testing, review and analysis is still better than having no system or heuristic at all. When you have no boundaries, rules, or standards at all, _that_ is when the worst abuses typically happen.


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 21, 2013)

> That some people who don't need to be on medication are given prescriptions for it anyway is a whole 'nother discussion unto itself. I'm sorry you ended up in a tunnel that it took two years to climb out of.



And yet it's inherent to this discussion, because this modeled my view of psychiatry. The deeper I dug the more I realized the factual basis of most psychological diagnosis is cripplingly low, and the psychiatrist doctors are little more than prostitutes for the drug companies.



> Also, what do you do if the "best" solution or treatment available for something still has notable risks, or a low success rate, or hasn't gone through a sufficient number of clinical tests? What should inform our judgement of whether the benefits outweigh the risks, or vice versa?



I don't know, how about we be a doctor about it? Conservative treatment emphasizing non-invasive therapy unless the condition continues to degrade. When it's obvious that complications will arise without further intervention, then you go forward.



> Half the people I know who get psychotropic meds, period, have been prescribed every drug in the book, and then some, in many cases with little or, in some cases, no visible improvement.



But it's just so lucrative.



> People choose to share things about themselves for any number of reasons--but, many _aren't looking for advice or a fight, is the thing._



That's a damn shame.



> My sense is that a flawed, incomplete, or "growing" system or heuristic that is still continually undergoing testing, review and analysis is still better than having no system or heuristic at all. When you have no boundaries, rules, or standards at all, _that is when the worst abuses typically happen._



Yes, psychiatry is literally better than nothing. But its capacity for harm, especially with financial incentives on the table, is catastrophic. I'm sure there are legitimate psychiatric doctors out there performing mundane research, slogging through the scientific method and publishing modest but well-grounded results, but they're buried under a pile of shrinks each trying to make a name for themselves with lackluster methodology and devastating results, treating their patients like a sampling pool.


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## Troj (Feb 21, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> And yet it's inherent to this discussion, because this modeled my view of psychiatry. The deeper I dug the more I realized the factual basis of most psychological diagnosis is cripplingly low, and the psychiatrist doctors are little more than prostitutes for the drug companies.



Unfortunately, yeah, lots of psychiatrists do appear to be pimps for the drug companies.

When they're not just Pfizer pimps, there's still often the additional problem, I think, that once you get a hammer (in this case, extensive training in psychopharm), everything becomes a nail (chemical imbalance that needs to be fixed with psychotropic meds).

There are certainly situations where medications are helpful, or even, called for, so it's important not to toss the baby out with the bathwater here. I work with a kid who's always climbing the goddamn walls, and no behavioral intervention has "stuck," because he's clearly got a chemical imbalance that can't just be lectured at. But, Mom's opposed to drugs, so...he's climbing the walls.

Well, and I do think the DSM is better than nothing, but it does irritate me that it's seemingly compiled largely by psychiatrists, for psychiatrists, with only minimal input from psychologists and others, so us psychologists are just along for the jolly ride then. 



> I don't know, how about we be a doctor about it? Conservative treatment  emphasizing non-invasive therapy unless the condition continues to  degrade. When it's obvious that complications will arise without further  intervention, then you go forward.



Sounds solid, but you _are_ including psychological distress under the umbrella of complications, right?

You also don't want to be _so_ non-invasive that you end up being wholly ineffectual, or falling into a pattern of not-so-benign neglect, so there's that happy medium again.



> That's a damn shame.



Well, here's a question: when you share something about yourself--your beliefs, your interests, your life goals, what you did this weekend, whatever--when do you intend, assume, or hope that someone will debate you on it? Under what circumstances are you, personally, cool with someone telling you something you like, believe, or aspire to do is dumb? When are you not cool with it?


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 21, 2013)

> Sounds solid, but you _are including psychological distress under the umbrella of complications, right?
> 
> You also don't want to be so non-invasive that you end up being wholly ineffectual, or falling into a pattern of not-so-benign neglect, so there's that happy medium again._



Depends on how significantly it's affecting their daily life. Since we don't really have a functional metric for psychological trauma and as you've admitted we can't really rule out confounding variables I'd say you're shooting from the hip when you look at psychological distress as a complication. There are ways of dealing with psychological stress in most cases that don't involve significant physical intervention. It'd probably take years (more than 2) to whittle away the easiest to treat causes of the distress before you'd get to the point of "okay, lets schedule you for surgery." You know, kind of like how a doctor will try antiinflammatories and prolonged physical therapy before suggesting surgically replacing someone's knee.



> Well, here's a question: when you share something about yourself--your beliefs, your interests, your life goals, what you did this weekend, whatever--when do you intend, assume, or hope that someone will debate you on it? Under what circumstances are you, personally, cool with someone telling you something you like, believe, or aspire to do is dumb? When are you not cool with it?



It depends, if they're just saying it to be a dick, like, "Rush is a faggot band." I'll probably just assume it has little to do with Rush and more to do with the fact that they wanna be a dick to me. However if it's more like, "Prog rock is way too pretentious." Then they actually have an opinion and I'll argue it with them happily. If I'm putting something about myself out in public I pretty much assume it's open season for whoever's within earshot. So if I say it, I'm usually willing to at the very least follow it up. Opinions should be well defended, but they're never sacrosanct.


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## Troj (Feb 22, 2013)

TeenageAngst said:


> Depends on how significantly it's affecting their daily life. Since we don't really have a functional metric for psychological trauma and as you've admitted we can't really rule out confounding variables I'd say you're shooting from the hip when you look at psychological distress as a complication.



Since there are normed assessments for measuring the nature and severity of various ailments, they can certainly inform diagnosis and treatment. So, I'd tend to incorporate them into the process. 

If my assessments and my clinical "gut" told me that a person was going to, say, kill themselves or someone else if I didn't intervene, pronto, then the speed and decisiveness with which I would intervene would be very different from if the person's distress and/or problems were more towards the moderate-to-mild end of the spectrum.

But, yeah, generally, you try to go with the least invasive intervention required to do the job. 



> It depends, if they're just saying it to be a dick, like, "Rush is a faggot band." I'll probably just assume it has little to do with Rush and more to do with the fact that they wanna be a dick to me. However if it's more like, "Prog rock is way too pretentious." Then they actually have an opinion and I'll argue it with them happily. If I'm putting something about myself out in public I pretty much assume it's open season for whoever's within earshot. So if I say it, I'm usually willing to at the very least follow it up. Opinions should be well defended, but they're never sacrosanct.



So, you're pretty receptive to people challenging your views and tastes.

Me, I take into account the following variables, when either deciding how to discuss or debate a subject that's been broached, or when deciding how to react to someone else's criticism or remark: 

1) The nature of my relationship with the other person and/or people present
2) The seriousness of the issue or matter being discussed, and
3) How the matter or issue was originally introduced, or put on the table.

So, regarding 2 and 3, if I say, "I like the Beatles," and the other person responds with, "FUCK YOU YOU MONSTER I BET YOU'RE A PEDOPHILE AND YOU LISTEN TO CARLY RAE JEPPESEN AND RAPE BABIES I HOPE YOU DIE," I'll be rather perturbed and taken aback, because 2) This isn't a life-or-death issue, and 3) When I stated my  own preference, in no way did I denigrate or stomp on other people's preferences.

But, if I say, "Anyone who doesn't like the Beatles is an uncultured swine, and they need to be taken out and shot for the very good of our civilization," _now_ I'm basically asking for someone to call me on that, because now I'm denigrating other people's feelings and tastes, and possibly trying to exert control over them. I've  effectively lowered my horns for combat, so I wouldn't be surprised when someone butts heads with me.

Of course, I'm more likely to be direct and candid with people I know, than I am with people I barely know, or don't know at all, unless a) I've been asked for or invited to give advice, or b) we're dealing with a serious safety issue here (depending on the nature of that issue).

So, those are my rules of thumb.


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## Rasly (Feb 22, 2013)

I fail to understand how changing your gender will make you feel any different, i mean wagina or penis, there is no real difference, except, penis is more practical.


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## -={Dracimonde}=- (Feb 22, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I fail to understand how changing your gender will make you feel any different, i mean wagina or penis, there is no real difference, except, penis is more practical.



Troj and TeenageAngst are pretty much debating the whole complex part of the topic, but if your looking for a simple yet useful answer, then the video that Raptros posted earlier should shed some light on the subject. The guy in the video can be a bit annoying due to how fast he talks and how he kind of skips from one scene of his speech to the other, but other than that, the vid explains it pretty damn well.

Enjoy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI


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## TeenageAngst (Feb 22, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I fail to understand how changing your gender will make you feel any different, i mean wagina or penis, there is no real difference, except, penis is more practical.



This in essence is another reason I have a hard time figuring out why the drastic surgical procedures are so damn "necessary". As far as psychiatry can tell (which isn't very far) the entire mechanism basically boils down to the transsexual having wires that got crossed in their brain during early development at some point. Okay. Mystery over. Your soul is didn't get mixed up on its way to Earth, there's no mystical feeling of "this is wrong" and certainly no need to kill yourself over it, jeez. You just have crossed signals. Granted those signals have varying degrees of crossed-ness, such that some people might not be able to function unless the issue is somehow rectified, but I'm willing to bet the majority, upon realizing this, would take the condition in much better stride with significantly less drama.

And yes I know it's something they can't help. I have similar experiences with panic attacks. They come out of nowhere, often for no reason, but almost always whenever I have a lot of caffeine. I start sweating and my face feels numb and my heart races, my breathing feels weird, I get super uncomfortable and overall I think I'm having a stroke and a heart attack both at the same time. These will continue off and on for hours until the caffeine starts wearing off. I can still function when this happens though because I remind myself "it's just a panic attack, your body's all wired up" and I can start getting on with whatever it was I was doing because I realize its all in my head. I still feel it, but it doesn't really interfere anymore. I still drink energy drinks like a fish drinks water too. I'd imagine realizing what they're experiencing is also all in their head, although perhaps more closely related to a sort of phantom limb issue, would alleviate a lot of the anxiety.


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## Ricky (Feb 22, 2013)

Rasly said:


> I fail to understand how changing your gender will make you feel any different, i mean wagina or penis, there is no real difference, except, penis is more practical.



Hormones play a big part.

Still, you would think with all the "fuck gender stereotypes" talk you hear that yeah -- it wouldn't matter as much.

From what I gather from the thread, it's just a matter of not feeling comfortable with your body in that respect.

Deep down, I'm not sure if that's due to social pressure or if it's really a superficial dislike of the physical "gear."

Like everything, it probably varies from person to person.


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