# FA Funding



## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Alright, so... if FA is going to be around for a while, we do need to discuss funding and what we want to do to keep the site alive and well. Server speed and equipment is expensive, and as such I think it's best to cover the bases early to prevent a repeat of past issues. Donations are wonderful, but a site can not rely on donations alone if it wishes to succeed.

*BANNERS AND TEXT ADS:*
To put it bluntly: banners suck. Nobody likes them, and rarely do they improve a site. More often than not, they make the site look ugly and break up the UI. While banners can be implemented, they are annoying and easily blockable, which is both a pro and a con.

Less invasive than banners are the text ads. While they're still not pretty, they are less marring on the whole. Text ads are a more likely introduction than banner ads, but are still something that we would like to avoid at all costs.

We'd rather try to avoid banners and text ads.

*ACCOUNT UPGRADES:*
Account upgrades are a more natural choice for pulling in revenue. Allowing people to purchase add-ons or "booster packs" to make give them custom functionality or additional features is an incentive-based way for to help increase income to pay for servers, and upgrade servers down the road when the time comes.

I think of this as more of the Livejournal approach. Ensure every user gets full functionality, but allow interested users to invest in advanced features which cater to their needs.

*FA STORE:*
T-shirts, comics and magazines. Selling items through an FA store for a fair price also works. But my belief is quality. None of that Cafepress crap -- it's ugly, poorly produced and frankly worth nobody's money. FA would be willing to fund comics and portfolios to sell through its stores, providing an excellent cut to the artists to cover production costs.

I'd also like to periodically work with artists to produce shirts and other apparel items that which could be sold via the online FA store. Strong designs, excellent production runs -- none of the craptasticular iron-on designs employed by other sites.

*PRINTS:*
In the future, I think FA will be able to offer the integrated selling of prints -- either via single print or bulk. I'm currently looking into third party vendors who would be willing to assist us in this endeavor while ensuring A) artist security and B) safe, fast e-commerce shopping.[/b]

*YOUR THOUGHTS:*
Suggestions and ideas are greatly welcomed. While I'm not a programmer, I can see to it that the financial aspects of the site stay afloat and provides a fast, enjoyable experience for all users (once login issues and other bugs get fixed, naturaly).

So, if you've got an idea, lay it on me!


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## orena (Dec 23, 2005)

Prints and an FA store both sound like a really good idea. 

As far as text adds are concerned, I never really found them to be an eye sore. I've even seen them in some places with customizable colours in the print and background that make them look like their part of the site. Although I know not everyone would feel the same way I do so putting them up, yet giving people the option to take them off their pages is a good idea. 

I am warry about the idea of allowing user upgrades and subscription accounts. Basically the problem with these is that all the new features go to the subscriptions while the free accounts are completely ignored and left in the stone age. The free accounds need some attention or people will start resenting the subscribers. When this goes to far the community feels more like a business and less like a community, just look at Deviant Art.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

orena said:
			
		

> I am warry about the idea of allowing user upgrades and subscription accounts. Basically the problem with these is that all the new features go to the subscriptions while the free accounts are completely ignored and left in the stone age. The free accounds need some attention or people will start resenting the subscribers. When this goes to far the community feels more like a business and less like a community, just look at Deviant Art.


This is an excellent point. Mind you, we've already thought of this. 

The account upgrades will offer features that go a little 'above and beyond' average in an attempt to offe things people can use. We still have plans to add features to basic accounts, and I do not want to go the DA route. It's impossible to use DA unless you pay, and I don't find that cool.

Which is why I stated LiveJournal as an approach model. LJ does a lot of excellent things with their pay model.


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## Almafeta (Dec 23, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> *ACCOUNT UPGRADES:*
> Account upgrades are a more natural choice for pulling in revenue. Allowing people to purchase add-ons or "booster packs" to make give them custom functionality or additional features is an incentive-based way for to help increase income to pay for servers, and upgrade servers down the road when the time comes.
> 
> I think of this as more of the Livejournal approach. Ensure every user gets full functionality, but allow interested users to invest in advanced features which cater to their needs.



Maybe allowing larger uploads, or putting an 'upload limit' per day that a premium account has expanded or abolished.



> *FA STORE:*
> T-shirts, comics and magazines. Selling items through an FA store for a fair price also works. But my belief is quality. None of that Cafepress crap -- it's ugly, poorly produced and frankly worth nobody's money. FA would be willing to fund comics and portfolios to sell through its stores, providing an excellent cut to the artists to cover production costs.
> 
> I'd also like to periodically work with artists to produce shirts and other apparel items that which could be sold via the online FA store. Strong designs, excellent production runs -- none of the craptasticular iron-on designs employed by other sites.



If you can't get a real company to do it, you might want to try Lulu.  My company uses them for our books (which we sell), and we've always got commercial-quality stuff from them; you might try them for comics, portfolios, or 'fundrasing compilations' of stories.



> *PRINTS:*
> In the future, I think FA will be able to offer the integrated selling of prints -- either via single print or bulk. I'm currently looking into third party vendors who would be willing to assist us in this endeavor while ensuring A) artist security and B) safe, fast e-commerce shopping.[/b]



Difficult, but it would be awesome if you could get it done.  



> *YOUR THOUGHTS:*
> Suggestions and ideas are greatly welcomed. While I'm not a programmer, I can see to it that the financial aspects of the site stay afloat and provides a fast, enjoyable experience for all users (once login issues and other bugs get fixed, naturaly).
> 
> So, if you've got an idea, lay it on me!



FurAffinity-sponsored books, comics, and portfolios sound lovely.  You might try doing a compilation CD, commissioning the most popular artists (find out which with a simple database query) at a good multiple of their normal going rate, and selling their art as 'FurAffinity exclusives.'  Many artists do CDs, as it's easy to format the content, and it's hard for even a 'bargain-basement' company to mess up...

And I'd still like to advertise my company's offerings on FA somehow ^^;


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Almafeta said:
			
		

> Maybe allowing larger uploads, or putting an 'upload limit' per day that a premium account has expanded or abolished.[


One of the ideas tossed around was increased upload size, plus (potentially) web hosting. Now, we've got no plans for hosting at the time, but it's one of the ideas. People who purchase enhanced accounts could get access to thinks like Oekaki features, etc.

I was also thinking about purchasable "skins". If people don't like the defalt layout, they could buy a skin for $1.50 and get a different layout. Perhaps let other people see the layout when they browse to that person's FA.



			
				Almafeta said:
			
		

> FurAffinity-sponsored books, comics, and portfolios sound lovely.  You might try doing a compilation CD, commissioning the most popular artists (find out which with a simple database query) at a good multiple of their normal going rate, and selling their art as 'FurAffinity exclusives.'  Many artists do CDs, as it's easy to format the content, and it's hard for even a 'bargain-basement' company to mess up...


I've been tossing the idea around that for a while. I don't want FA to become a business, but the fact is, we do need money to stay alive, and we're not at any risk right now... but it's good to look ahead into the future.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

Almafeta said:
			
		

> Maybe allowing larger uploads, or putting an 'upload limit' per day that a premium account has expanded or abolished.


Yuck to that one 



			
				Almafeta said:
			
		

> And I'd still like to advertise my company's offerings on FA somehow ^^;


Hmm... could just lob that into the user profile. But extra donations for FA supporters on that side, d'you mean?
Comes back to the divisive issue of "supporter" status on individuals which is still a good idea in funding terms, even though it creates "divisions" in the community in some people's eyes. Might be seen as less of an issue for people who are actively pointing people in directions for personal and/or "business" interests related to the community, but outwith it?

_*thinks*_


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> One of the ideas tossed around was increased upload size, plus (potentially) web hosting.


I personally like the latter much better ^^
Had passed that in as an idea previously, with regards to co-hosting, but never received a response. Should certainly be possible to balance disk, CPU and bandwidth usage issues using such an approach to get best value-for-money for all involved.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> Comes back to the divisive issue of "supporter" status on individuals which is still a good idea in funding terms, even though it creates "divisions" in the community in some people's eyes.


Well, I brought it up before, and heard a lot of the ideas people had. Some thought it was great, others thought it was "elitist".

Frankly, this is a problem with no matter what you do. If you offer upgraded accounts, does this instantly make those people who pay elitist? It's a choice which needs to be made, really. I don't see great rifts in the LJ community about "elitists who pay". If somebody wants to pay $3 to get more icons, y'know, good for them. 

If people have problems with that, well... I'm sorry.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> Had passed that in as an idea previously, with regards to co-hosting, but never received a response. Should certainly be possible to balance disk usage vs. bandwidth issues using such an approach to get best value for money for all involved.


Well, my idea is that if FA grows enough, and can sustain itself, open another server solely for hosting. Incorporate features on FA which people can use on their site (like commenting).


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## orena (Dec 23, 2005)

I'm sure you could never go as far as DA, even if you became commersial (which I know you wont). I don't use LiveJournal so I don't know what their subscription service is like. 

Also, I just got a good idea as far as banner ads are concerned. Going with an add company is almost always a bad idea. But what if you sold ad spots to individuals, there are lots of people in the furry community who want to advertise their website, online commic, furbit auction and other such things.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

[edits previous message, above]



			
				Preyfar said:
			
		

> I don't see great rifts in the LJ community about "elitists who pay". If somebody wants to pay $3 to get more icons, y'know, good for them.
> 
> If people have problems with that, well... I'm sorry.


Indeed!
It is the manner _in which it is done and presented to the community_ that is important. Can definitely be a workable solution with very few negative "repercussions".

Perhaps the difference between ourselves and LJ is that no-one's so particularly interested in the LJ content () whereas here some content contributors may feel somewhat "undervalued" if they've contributed a few hundred excellent submissions, yet are seen as "less important" (somehow) than someone who pays $10-20/year, say.

Definitely a bit of a presentation issue to ensure smoothest-possible implementation, although could be worked-around by various means...


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

orena said:
			
		

> But what if you sold ad spots to individuals, there are lots of people in the furry community who want to advertise their website, online commic, furbit auction and other such things.


Thanks.
Yes, the furbid model for community ads was very underused. Has definite possibilities within a more dynamic set up (as here), IMHO.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> uncia2000 said:
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*nods*. Agreed!

At present I take it that bandwidth and CPU is (or will be soon) pretty much maxxed out whereas disk space is relatively plentiful.
Should still be possible to play to that strength, perhaps, for hosting accounts. (i.e. not just "high-bandwidth" artist websites).

(aside: The other synergy example I'd mentioned in that context a long-time back was with the likes of VCL. But don't tell Ch'marr I said that )


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## orena (Dec 23, 2005)

Although I did mention community seperation in my comment about subscription my concerns were more about site usability, which have been explained. 

And I agree there are always going to be some die hard users who see the subscribers as elitist, even if it is true or not. Presentation for sure could make or break this idea. 

Personally if it was just some goodies on the side (and not a major feature needed for using the site) then I would be willing to pay to try it out.


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## Suule (Dec 23, 2005)

FA Mag and print studio are the best ideas, and the most costly ones to start up...

Then again, you must avoid the fiasco FN mag turned out to be (Started out good, ended as a disaster...)


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## Apartheid (Dec 23, 2005)

*fffffff*

Jheryn can't even afford to eat; what makes him think he'll be able to fund such a precarious operation?


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## squnq (Dec 23, 2005)

Goin


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: fffffff*



			
				Apartheid said:
			
		

> Jheryn can't even afford to eat; what makes him think he'll be able to fund such a precarious operation?


The idea is hopefully that the "community" (as a whole) will be able to fund most/all of the running costs- but no discredit to anyone who does not personally contribute on a _financial_ basis.

That way Jheryn gets to eat.

=

*nods to <orena> and <Suule>'s observations on the previous page*


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## Apartheid (Dec 23, 2005)

*forecast forecast forecast forecast*



			
				uncia2000 said:
			
		

> Apartheid said:
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I think that Jheryn should prioritize his basic necessities before he puts his funds towards the maintenance and operation of FurAffinity.

Well, at least that's what common sense dictates.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: forecast forecast forecast forecast*



			
				Apartheid said:
			
		

> I think that Jheryn should prioritize his basic necessities before he puts his funds towards the maintenance and operation of FurAffinity.
> 
> Well, at least that's what common sense dictates.


In an ideal world there would have been a multi-millionaire who could've bankrolled a community solution when SA threw the spanner in the works.
That didn't happen.

At that point in time, Jheryn was the "best bet" to take things forward so a large number of people got behind him to _try_ to make it work (not just $, but just as importantly in terms of art contributions and community spirit).


I'd happily see a dozen more well-funded communities in addition to FA and other communities/semi-communities & art archives that currently exist.

Money shouldn't have been an issue last time, but it ended up being so because the community was not kept in touch (there were other issues, too, of course). I'd trust lessons have been learned; and indeed, that appears to be the case, thus far.
Mentioning that the community platform needs money to operate is /NOT/ a negative point, IMO!  Merely a statement of fact and an issue that can hopefully be addressed constructively...

JM-02-cents, anyhow ^^


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## squnq (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: forecast forecast forecast forecast*



			
				Apartheid said:
			
		

> I think that Jheryn should prioritize his basic necessities before he puts his funds towards the maintenance and operation of FurAffinity.
> 
> Well, at least that's what common sense dictates.


AFAIK, he isn't putting any funds towards FA. It's entirely community funded. I believe Jheryn's gonna become more of a figurehead as time goes on. Kind of like George Bush at the head of the republican government.


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## Apartheid (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: forecast forecast forecast forecast*



			
				squnq said:
			
		

> AFAIK, he isn't putting any funds towards FA. It's entirely community funded. I believe Jheryn's gonna become more of a figurehead as time goes on. Kind of like George Bush at the head of the republican government.



JIHAD JHERYN IS FUCKING US OVER AGAIN


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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

Well definitely the flash, pic, and flyin txt ads would definitely screw things up, wreck the GUI, and making ppl want to get ad blocking software, distorting the site's functions and operations its self, and then the complaints come in as to "why doesn?t this site work!", doy, your software is being as aggressive as its written and designed for, and im sure you thought of this too.

As for the alternatives, the thing about "advanced features for 'donators' " is why I stay away from DA, as most people. Sure you have an account, but to use any of the better features, and not to sound like a cheapass you got to open your wallet, and in many users? eyes that?s considered extortion, definitely a negative view of the site and the last thing I want is this site's name to be tarnished in such a manor.

The store is a good idea. One thing about the last version of the site, alot of ppl did custom user pages. All that did (to me) was annoy the crap out of me, as some were hard to view and some found exploits to make it act weird, an option to view everything as its original would be nice and to bypass the user's implementations on their page, but, thats a feature improvement down the road and that doesn?t belong here, or maybe it dose as thats one of the things you can charge for when and if you decide to do the pay for better features thing.

I know as well as you that your doing this site for everyone out of kindness, but kindness isn?t cheap so of course you need revenue to keep it up. 3rd party interference just leads to confusion and trouble, but may be necessary, advertising is a definite no-no, positive ways are hard to come up with, and im willing to think of some if possible. Like, the store, buying prints, that?s a great idea, also, art supplies, a separate page combined with a major well known company that provides supplies/software to artists that need them as the lowest prices possible, like a shopping cart type, I would certainly use it. As for others, I will advise you if I have any more ideas. ^^


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: forecast forecast forecast forecast*



			
				Apartheid said:
			
		

> JIHAD JHERYN IS FUCKING US OVER AGAIN


*g* Some of us would probably not be _too_ fussed about that, so long as the community as a whole benefits.
_*watches 513 users currently online* (and not over here, discussing!)_

Besides, I know he's not benefiting at all financially and roos are cute anyhow, IMO ^^ _*jk*_

Am sure he and others deserve credit for all that stress and hard work, last time; even if things could have worked out better.



			
				squnq said:
			
		

> Going out on a limb here - but I'm of the opinion that people would probably have a lot more confidence in buying premium accounts or additional features once the base site is actually operating without any major issues.


You certainly have a valid point there.

Addressing the issues of start-up funding (to the point where one can more confidently ask users to help fund the community, rather than _hoping_ they'll do so) perhaps requires a difference in short-term/long-term focus.
No harm in tackling both of those...


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## squnq (Dec 23, 2005)

Zippo said:
			
		

> As for the alternatives, the thing about "advanced features for 'donators' " is why I stay away from DA, as most people. Sure you have an account, but to use any of the better features, and not to sound like a cheapass you got to open your wallet, and in many users? eyes that?s considered extortion, definitely a negative view of the site and the last thing I want is this site's name to be tarnished in such a manor.


j


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## squnq (Dec 23, 2005)

oh my god wait zippo you're the dude who was like "oh god people are censoring artwork published on the web to irritate people and extort money out of them by forcing them to buy prints man artists are so stingy"

now it all makes sense


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> At present I take it that bandwidth and CPU is (or will be soon) pretty much maxxed out...


Right now we're on a backup server, not the primary. The primariy is being reconfigured. Anyway, we're running on a Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz right now if I recall. Our main server is a dual Xeon 3.0ghz.

. . . 

We should have plenty of CPU speed for a while.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: fffffff*



			
				Apartheid said:
			
		

> Jheryn can't even afford to eat; what makes him think he'll be able to fund such a precarious operation?


Because I'm funding it.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

squnq said:
			
		

> Going out on a limb here - but I'm of the opinion that people would probably have a lot more confidence in buying premium accounts or additional features once the base site is actually operating without any major issues.


Keep in mind we won't be rolling it out until the site itself is working as intended.


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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

squnq said:
			
		

> oh my god wait zippo you're the dude who was like "oh god people are censoring artwork published on the web to irritate people and extort money out of them by forcing them to buy prints man artists are so stingy"
> 
> now it all makes sense



You know if you want to insult someone, dont do it publicly, you are no better than anyone else so please do not insist on trying to anger or start an argument. I would hope that you would be above that sort of thing.


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## orena (Dec 23, 2005)

squnq said:
			
		

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IMO if a site is still fully functional to non-paying users then it is deffinately not extortion. But then again IMO Deviant Art is not longer fully functional to non-paying users, with their lack of any search system, only having 24 thumbnails on a page which makes it nearly impossible to get through a lot of art (which is important on a site that Huge) and barely any responce from the help desk, usually after the problem has been solved too. 

But this isn't about DA. 

Preyfar already said any of the add-on pay-for features would be minor, like more user icons, a Oekaki feature and customizable pages. (Sorry if those are not in the final plan, I just picked them out of different ideas in this thread.) All those are nice but if you can't find the money you can still use the site without them. 

Also, I wasn't intentionally venting about DA, I'm just trying to show the difference besides a still usable site and one that is unusable without payment.


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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

orena said:
			
		

> Also, I wasn't intentionally venting about DA, I'm just trying to show the difference besides a still usable site and one that is unusable without payment.



True, true. I can agree upon that. Its that I fear what has happened to DA may (but most likely wont) happen here, as to my brashness on my point. Those are just my opinions and im entitled to them as long as I keep them to the point and not be rude about it which I think I did a decent job of, unlike some other ppl. >:]


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

orena said:
			
		

> IMO Deviant Art is not longer fully functional to non-paying users, with their lack of any search system, only having 24 thumbnails on a page which makes it nearly impossible to get through a lot of art (which is important on a site that Huge) and barely any responce from the help desk, usually after the problem has been solved too.


I don't use DA for the sheer reason that, years later, it's UI still sucks and you have to pay to get basic functionality. Essentially, FA will not change from how it is now, but offer additional features for people who pay/donate.

I think the big difference here is the idea that "donaters" get additional benefits -vs- people who purchase additional features.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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Good. And bandwidth?

Was more from p.o.v. of possibility of balancing out w/user hosting accounts, anyhow.



			
				Preyfar said:
			
		

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_*perks up ears*_

Did you cover the remainder of the server cost, too?
Many thanks, if so. 

Remind us what the deal was on the co-location hosting, dollar-wise, so as to help focus minds... $400/mo.? $500??


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## squnq (Dec 23, 2005)

Zippo said:
			
		

> You know if you want to insult someone, dont do it publicly, you are no better than anyone else so please do not insist on trying to anger or start an argument. I would hope that you would be above that sort of thing.


er

don't you insult artists publically when you make comments that they're "extorting" people by putting "furbid sample" on their artwork and such

lol


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

uncia2000 said:
			
		

> Did you cover the remainder of the server cost, too?
> Many thanks, if so.
> 
> Remind us what the deal was on the co-location hosting, dollar-wise, so as to help focus minds... $400/mo.? $500??


Server costs, currently, are starting at $400 a month... and will only rise as the site improves. We're not hurting for money yet, but it's safe to always plan ahead. I forsee FA growing, not shrinking.


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## RavenWorks (Dec 23, 2005)

Anyone still up for the 'bug bounty'? ;P Promise funds that'll get paid once a particular bug gets fixed?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

squnq said:
			
		

> don't you insult artists publically when you make comments that they're "extorting" people by putting "furbid sample" on their artwork and such


This thread is not about Zippo nor your opinion of him, so please... do not turn it into a finger pointing LOLathon. Dig?


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## Xax (Dec 23, 2005)

RavenWorks: I suggested that too.

Although honestly, it seems kind of stupid to promise extra funds to basic functionality.

Esp. when we've all seen just how good Jheryn is at fixing bugs...


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

RavenWorks said:
			
		

> Anyone still up for the 'bug bounty'? ;P Promise funds that'll get paid once a particular bug gets fixed?


Yeah, mind-reader! 

(I think (hope?) that would be one for the short-term funding category, though! )


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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

squnq said:
			
		

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Feature improvement: An ignore spicific user feature here in the forms, it would help greatly for users that wish to block ppl that absolutely have to have the last word to "1up" continuing to drag it on without a good reason.

Anyways...  good thing about the current CPU capacity, it slows down a bit as many users are on during the day so I was wondering about that. ^^


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## orena (Dec 23, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> I don't use DA for the sheer reason that, years later, it's UI still sucks and you have to pay to get basic functionality. Essentially, FA will not change from how it is now, but offer additional features for people who pay/donate.
> 
> I think the big difference here is the idea that "donaters" get additional benefits -vs- people who purchase additional features.



I know we discussed this one earlier, I was just reiterating it for Zippo who jumped in the conversation later. 



			
				RavenWorks said:
			
		

> Anyone still up for the 'bug bounty'? ;P Promise funds that'll get paid once a particular bug gets fixed?



It seamed to get a lot of participation last time, I'm all for using it again.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

Zippo said:
			
		

> Feature improvement: An ignore spicific user feature here in the forms, it would help greatly for users that wish to block ppl that absolutely have to have the last word to "1up" continuing to drag it on without a good reason.


Hey, the "Block List" on main community doesn't work (properly) yet.
One at a time, please!


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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

As for funding, I wouldnt mind contributing to help with the server upkeep, that is if I know exactly where the funds are going to, much like buying something online, you get an invoice, and I would at least expect the same right?


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Zippo said:
			
		

> As for funding, I wouldnt mind contributing to help with the server upkeep, that is if I know exactly where the funds are going to, much like buying something online, you get an invoice, and I would at least expect the same right?


The funds are paid from our Amazon account directly to Gushi.


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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

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Oh, well maybe if I paid some freakin attention then I would know that huh.


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## Turbine_Divinity (Dec 23, 2005)

There isn't really an elitist divide with paid Livejournal users, so I don't see elitism being a problem here. Perhaps sponsored art that stays on the front page for extra time (not ads per se, just art, nothing that is an eyesore) might be one solution.


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## uncia2000 (Dec 23, 2005)

Turbine_Divinity said:
			
		

> Perhaps sponsored art that stays on the front page for extra time (not ads per se, just art, nothing that is an eyesore) might be one solution.


Sounds interesting, here. Or on rotation in a separate "stack", perhaps?
Might either of those be workable?

Certainly is one step removed from seeing to give a particular user "privileges" in exchange for finances.

=


			
				Turbine_Divinity said:
			
		

> warrior has shot the food


Yeah, and I was one of the thousands who waded straight into the dragon, first time... and second...


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## Apartheid (Dec 23, 2005)

Zippo said:
			
		

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## Zippo (Dec 23, 2005)

Hmmm.. maybe a contest with an entry fee, like say, an artist pays a few bucks or something and they are entered to have their own version of the main front page FA graphic along with their icon next to it for credit for like a week, and as to which one is chosen the users vote on which is the best for the week, and it cant be up more than once to be fair about it, and a different artist must be chosen. Just some more funds thoughts. :3


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Zippo said:
			
		

> Hmmm.. maybe a contest with an entry fee, like say, an artist pays a few bucks or something and they are entered to have their own version of the main front page FA graphic along with their icon next to it for credit for like a week, and as to which one is chosen the users vote on which is the best for the week, and it cant be up more than once to be fair about it, and a different artist must be chosen. Just some more funds thoughts. :3


I don't think that would be fair. Contests should be for the entire site, not just those with money to enter.


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## Xax (Dec 23, 2005)

Obviously, one should be able to purchase bans on other users for the cost of $100 US

and unbans would be an equal value


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## Dragoneer (Dec 23, 2005)

Xax said:
			
		

> Obviously, one should be able to purchase bans on other users for the cost of $100 US
> 
> and unbans would be an equal value


Heh. Adopt a Something Awful forums mentality? Pay $10 to get in, then $10 to give people a custom title... that's be funny. Horrible, but funny.

Not happenin' though.


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## nobuyuki (Dec 24, 2005)

One thing I'm really worried about is how you guys expect users to trust your site with their credit card number with such a history of bad security problems.  Even if you can get it to professional grade standards, overcoming FA's previous reputation will be a difficult task to make any user trust you guys enough to do commerce on your site.  Furthermore, response time to hacking in terms of FIXING the problem will have to be that much more agressive, because once you make it a REAL crime to hack FA (IE when you have sensitive financial data looming around), only the criminals will actually try to hack it, which means that every time a new bug is found by someone not on the team, you can be sure someone's identity could have potentially been stolen.

Do you have any plans of using an escrow or secondary service to handle all transactions for you?  Will they also host the store infastructure?  Will you hire a dedicated team to secure the store in case the answer to either of the former two is "no"?  These are all important questions that the public will want answered before they even consider doing serious business with FA.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 24, 2005)

nobuyuki said:
			
		

> Do you have any plans of using an escrow or secondary service to handle all transactions for you?  Will they also host the store infastructure?  Will you hire a dedicated team to secure the store in case the answer to either of the former two is "no"?  These are all important questions that the public will want answered before they even consider doing serious business with FA.


FA is not going to be selling or accepting credit cards directly. We will go through a distributor who will handle transations and materials.

FA is not a business. We will leave that to the professionals.


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## Silverfang390 (Dec 24, 2005)

I really like the idea of a FA store.  Though I won't be able to buy anything from it until after I move out of my parents' house.  Lack of funds, and the fact that my parents are totally old school.  They hate the fact that I draw furs, and they don't even know about the site.


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## Almafeta (Dec 25, 2005)

Preyfar said:
			
		

> FA is not a business.



That's a dangerous position to hold, I think.


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## dave hyena (Dec 26, 2005)

Almafeta said:
			
		

> Preyfar said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Enthusiasts are running FA in their spare time for the love of furry art, when one starts running something as business for the love of money; people start having certain expectations and have less sympathy and patience and it becomes (even more of) a burden.

Not to mention that where gold casts its spell, people start screwing each other over: if you thought FA's original break up was bad...

I'm sure we all remember SA, which was run "as a business".

As for the main subject, the first thing I would like to see is a page on the site with a breakdown of exactly how much FA is costing per month in terms of hosting, bandwidth et al.

*I swear a solemn oath right here and now, before God and Judas Priest, that I will donate $20 to FA when/if I see that go up.*

It makes it easier for me (and others) to donate, because that way I know that I'm not just throwing my money into a big hole marked: "costs".

I will know that FA costs X amount of money to keep going every month, and by donateing $Y, I'm bringing FA that much closer to it's goal.

I like the idea of furry fandom internal adverts, ?click here to buy product X with the cleaning power of PURE ATOMS!!!!!!!? is obnoxious and intrusive but adverts promoting furry art, websites, products and stuff like that is pleasing enough because I might see something I like and I know its helping furries and furry fandom, as opposed to faceless corporations et al.   

The idea of account extras, is also a good one, though as people have said, it is of absolute critical importance that it be marketed right and that it be emphasised that you don?t need to pay for basic functionality and that what you?re paying for is perfectly optional.

Don't call them "upgrades" or "booster packs" or anything else like that, call them "Crabwise shuffles" or something that doesn't imply that one is ascending through currency.


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## Almafeta (Dec 26, 2005)

Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> That's a dangerous position to hold, I think.
> 
> Enthusiasts are running FA in their spare time for the love of furry art, when one starts running something as business for the love of money; people start having certain expectations and have less sympathy and patience and it becomes (even more of) a burden.
> 
> Not to mention that where gold casts its spell, people start screwing each other over: if you thought FA's original break up was bad...



That's part of the problem; large sums of money changing hands without making records of it.  Look at how many people accused Arcturus of theft immediately after FA broke.

Even if FA is primarially for-content, not for-profit, you need to keep a business-like attitude towards money; take out profit, and you still need to plan for the future and look for ways to attract people and keep FA running.



			
				Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> I'm sure we all remember SA, which was run "as a business".



SA being...?



			
				Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> As for the main subject, the first thing I would like to see is a page on the site with a breakdown of exactly how much FA is costing per month in terms of hosting, bandwidth et al.
> 
> *I swear a solemn oath right here and now, before God and Judas Priest, that I will donate $20 to FA when/if I see that go up.*
> 
> ...



Very good idea; something like what The Wotch or Venus Envy does.  Note that they have significantly less content than a site like FA does, cost more to keep up per month, and they manage to pay their bills.



			
				Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> I like the idea of furry fandom internal adverts, ?click here to buy product X with the cleaning power of PURE ATOMS!!!!!!!? is obnoxious and intrusive but adverts promoting furry art, websites, products and stuff like that is pleasing enough because I might see something I like and I know its helping furries and furry fandom, as opposed to faceless corporations et al.



I'd like to see ads of interest to furries.  

A submission's keywords and maturity level could be used to 'target' the ads to somewhere appropriate.  (I think we might have a bit of trouble if a Sexyfur ad popped up under a picture of cubs playing in a field...)



			
				Dave Hyena said:
			
		

> The idea of account extras, is also a good one, though as people have said, it is of absolute critical importance that it be marketed right and that it be emphasised that you don?t need to pay for basic functionality and that what you?re paying for is perfectly optional.



That's difficult; the more people come to use it, the more people will come to think of it as being 'basic functionality.'


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## wut (Dec 26, 2005)

trying to get any reliable source of income from a website without running it like a business (or pulling an ebaum) is kind of unrealistic.

Especially when the methods you're proposing are going to require a business structure.


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## Kiyoshi (Dec 27, 2005)

I'm up for an FA Store & Prints. I really don't want there to be upgradable accounts because that'll be one more thing I'll have to pay for, that I can't afford. =(

I remember at the old FA they had text ads at the bottom of the screen, and they were able to be turned off. I spent some of my bored time clicking them, closing the windows, and clicking others. *shrugs* Productive, ne?

Anyway, those're my thoughts on it. Ganbatte~


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## shep (Dec 27, 2005)

As soon as the importing problem is fixed, I'll "reward" FA with a donation.


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## Dragoneer (Dec 28, 2005)

shep said:
			
		

> As soon as the importing problem is fixed, I'll "reward" FA with a donation.


We're working on that right now. We believe we've identified the problem with Sendmail, and are working on the fix.


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## shep (Jan 3, 2006)

Never did get it to work, but made a donation anyway.  I'm just going to start over.


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## uncia2000 (Jan 3, 2006)

shep said:
			
		

> Never did get it to work, but made a donation anyway.  I'm just going to start over.


Hey, thank you, Shep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Very much appreciated that you've chosen to make that donation to help support the community, despite not being able to import your old account.
Sorry we couldn't get that important issue for you resolved in time. :?
(afaik, we're still not sure whether some ISPs are rejecting those emails without even dropping them into a spam folder).


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