# Did/Are you studying anatomy? What's your opinion on refs?



## FalseEnthusiasm (Aug 13, 2009)

I recently opened up a discussion on another forum regarding the use of anime/cartoon screen caps or other _drawings_ (there was a mix up that I was talking about photos, but I meant just drawings) as refs. A few discussions in the post made me curious in regards to anatomy study, and as to how many people have or are doing it. A lot of people actually got kind of nippy...>.>;

I've noticed that a lot of people _haven't _done it (even if they occassionally reference photos). I do not support using nothing but or mostly other people's art work as refs, because, from my experience, it doesn't help. Not to mention it is kind of disrespectful to the prior artists, in my opinion. When I say "study," I mean just that. Not referencing anatomy as you draw. ;D

Personally, I have and definetly still am. I used to ref anime and manga a while back, but have stopped that. 
I think taking the time to understand anatomy is great. The more you learn, the better your art improves, even if it's hard and takes a lot of time. I'm _definetly_ still learning.

So did you? If not, why? 
Opinions?
Discuss.


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## onewingedweasel (Aug 13, 2009)

i would agree using other drawings for ref's not only does you a disservice but the artist as well. its then an interpretation of an interpretation. always draw from the source i say.  im all for photo ref's. there seems to be a lot of confusion out there as to the difference tween referencing and infringing. and for some reason using referencing has gotten a bad rap despite it being standard for a lot of professional artists. 

i occasionally do anatomy studies but not as often as i should. its great practice and posemaniacs even has a little slideshow for it. did a lot of it in college and it does really help. makes it much easier to try and draw from memory as well.


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## heresydarling (Aug 13, 2009)

I use photo refs for just about ALL of my artwork, be it for pose, facial expression, perspective, or whatever. To be honest, I think that anyone who looks down on someone for using photo refs is, to be quite honest, a little ignorant. If you get good enough, you can draw without your pose looking crooked or awkward, but you can only really do that if/when you understand how the body actually works. I went to art school, took several life drawing classes, and I am currently taking anatomy classes and I STILL goof up on the simplest stuff and need photo refs.

A big mistake people make (myself included!) is THINKING that you know how something is supposed to look. When you actually LOOK, with the eyes of an artist looking to learn and understand, you see things that you never noticed before.

I used to use other people's artwork as reference, but I try not to do that now because I run the risk of not only reproducing another person's potential errors, but also of reproducing their style in some way. It's a good way to begin if real photos are intimidating to the newbie artist, but I don't know how much value it can be to others.

I had a friend in high school who was pretty good at drawing but she did most of her drawing by pausing animes and copying poses. Those pics were pretty cool, but when she drew her own characters, without reference, they'd all kinda look like stiff Sailor Moons


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## DragonFoxDemon (Aug 13, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with references. It's better if you have a general idea of what you are doing first. A reference is only an aid.

I know how the human body is supposed to work, that doesn't mean I can draw one person to the next. The flesh doesn't go over everyone's skeleton the same way. I haven't drawn every possible pose in the world, I doubt anyone has.

If anyone's school is like mine, your figure drawing was 'ideal human'. You learned proportions and placements for 'ideal'. People, critters never fit the ideal image but it is an amazing jumping off point.

Personally I believe if you can take your OWN photo references the better. Sometimes it can't be done though.


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## Karma Korpse (Aug 14, 2009)

I use a lot of photos for references and sometimes if I want to get a certain style, I'll pull up some example artwork.

I have a bunch of art books from like...video games and mangas that I go through for inspiration. Usually with poses or perhaps the design itself. Its extremely helpful if there are artist's notes. One book I have, each drawing has the artist explaining what he was asked to do and what he created and its EXTREMELY helpful to sort of understand that process.

If you're in college, or can register for a class. Get Life Art. You spend the whole time drawing a nude model which can take up to like 3 hours. At least my particular class lasted this long.
With the knowledge I learned from that class, I already know how shadows will cast and how muscles will work, based on that.

My only problem with using artwork as a reference is that it can be abused. Its kind of like when you had that one friend growing up that liked a certain cartoon and he/she just redrew the characters over and over. Later, now all they can do is that one style and they're basically artifacting old poses and expressions till its their desired effect.

More or less what teens do now with anime. Why is it I always see the same face for the same expression...because one or two hit animes used it and now its a crutch for those who don't learn the mechanics behind why that face is made.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 14, 2009)

You're pretty much always drawing from reference. You basically can't draw if you don't have some kind of visual library to work with. You wouldn't draw a dragon if you hadn't seen various reptiles or other animals in your life.

Direct reference from other people's photos and/or illustrations is not good for commercial use (especially without permission). Both are under copyright. Always relying on photos you don't really understand true lighting circumstances because the camera can't pick up on things the way our human eyes can.

However, taking your own photo reference is fine, it's actually better if you learn to anyways because it does help you become a better artist when drawing. 

I'm not saying you can't use photo reference because a lot in the industry actually do. There is no shame in using it because either you don't have the mental visual library to work with from experience and need help. Facial expressions are kind of hard to get sometimes because you don't want to hurt yourself or your model making the same face (and therefore making it stick!) Also, if you're young and don't go out and observe your visual library tends to be stunted and you have to constantly use google.

The trick of using reference is to make it not look like you used reference. If you're going to copy something straight of a magazine or google think changing up the colors or details but still leave it where we can tell you got your reference (without you confessing it) it's *cheating*. I can't stand it when comic artists just blatantly rip from a magazine where allasudden your Sueprhero looks like snapshot from GQ or Entertainment Weekly. Or those that have Porn Face aka Greg Land. I understand they have deadlines but I don't want a scrapbook of magazine clippings in disguise of a comic book.

But like I said, reference isn't a curse word, it's how you use it and were you're using it from.


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## FalseEnthusiasm (Aug 14, 2009)

heresydarling said:


> I use photo refs for just about ALL of my artwork, be it for pose, facial expression, perspective, or whatever. To be honest, I think that anyone who looks down on someone for using photo refs is, to be quite honest, a little ignorant. If you get good enough, you can draw without your pose looking crooked or awkward, but you can only really do that if/when you understand how the body actually works. I went to art school, took several life drawing classes, and I am currently taking anatomy classes and I STILL goof up on the simplest stuff and need photo refs.
> 
> A big mistake people make (myself included!) is THINKING that you know how something is supposed to look. When you actually LOOK, with the eyes of an artist looking to learn and understand, you see things that you never noticed before.
> 
> ...



Photo refs are all I allowmyself to use (except for posemaniacs.com for practice). I know that if I took the time to learn anatomy and soemone drew it, I wouldn't be too happy. I _always _use a photo reff when I draw realism. I try not to with anime, however. Though I don't think it's wrong and do you photo refs for anime, and do for practice a lot.
That's pretty much what I'm _trying _to do, understand the human body and exactly how it works. I would love to take an anatomy and life drawing class one day.

That is so true...I know I have LOTS to learn. Processing what I see helps a lot. Sometimes I'm just like "How could I _not _see that before?!" It fun, though.

If I could have a dime for everytime I heard "this is my character!" when it looked clearly like another. v.v;




> You're pretty much always drawing from reference. You basically can't draw if you don't have some kind of visual library to work with. You wouldn't draw a dragon if you hadn't seen various reptiles or other animals in your life.
> 
> Direct reference from other people's photos and/or illustrations is not good for commercial use (especially without permission). Both are under copyright. Always relying on photos you don't really understand true lighting circumstances because the camera can't pick up on things the way our human eyes can.
> 
> ...



Certainly, I never use a photo unless it's specifically allowed.
I either got to stock photo provider and abide their rules, or use artmorgue.com.

I had no idea comic artists do that sometimes. o.o;
That's just skeavy.

I'm just posted some of these threads because I was sort of curious, but now I really want to learn a lot more...
I have to say the artists I have some of the most respect for are the animators with extremely real style, like Full Metal Alchemists. Their knowledge of anatomy and mechanics is just mind-blowing to me.

That's why I try to understand anatomy and practice with real-life, so I can do comic/anime/manga-ish stuff un-refed. It feels way less limited.
I know it's possible, my sister's proof of that. I don't think I'll ever get as great as professional at all, since it's not something I want as my career. I'm still very passionate about it, though.


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## Arshes Nei (Aug 14, 2009)

Greg Land 

http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=4704715&postcount=153

http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=4707175&postcount=191

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5981138&postcount=75


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## Karma Korpse (Aug 14, 2009)

"Originality is the art of concealing your sources" ~ Benjamin Franklin

I use stock photos as references a lot cause a lot of times they tend to be fairly generic anyway, and the pose is all I really want. If I can't draw the face or details, then I'm not really drawing and no one should say that they are either.

And that Greg Land stuff is pretty ridiculous. You can see what I mean about artifacting old stuff when you see the 3 faces of Sandra Bollock. That wasn't terribly offensive, but putting glasses on a traced drawing and saying its different is completely surreal. 
Also those spider-man pics brought up an interesting question to me.

If you draw the original piece and later, trace it and then change some details. Is it stealing?

On semi-related note: I remember reading that a country-artist was sued for stealing his own work. That is, reusing an old song and rereleasing it as a new song with different lyrics or something.


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## Nari (Aug 15, 2009)

To be honest, there's nothing like drawing a picture using a photo reference. And I'm not talking about photo reference as in art, either...I'm talking about, you take a picture of yourself in a pose, and then you draw it! To me, it's easier to figure out how the body moves if you use reference photos. 

It's always a good thing to study anatomy. I am consistently studying anatomy, especially because the better the anatomy is on the picture, the better it looks.


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## NeroFox1989 (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm currently trying to study anatomy of:
hyenas, foxes, leopards, tigers, wolves, huskies,dragons (any realistic looking references), humans...and probably something else, idk...

it's just too much for me to wrap my little mind around a lot of the time, so unfortunately I gotta take things slow....and annoyingly...
but yes I have to agree it's very rewarding


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## onewingedweasel (Aug 16, 2009)

now im giggling cause i often snap my own reference shots of myself for photos and tween my camera and cellphone camera i got some damn silly pictures of myself. especially for facial expressions..


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## Nightweaver (Aug 16, 2009)

Draw from live models if you can, photos and other human and animal references if you can't. Furry art is hard; you need to combine human aspects and animal aspects in varying degrees. You can't just study other people's already refined style to learn how to draw. You do need to go to the source and learn how bodies are put together, before you start messing around simplifying and stylizing them. You think that animators draw from anything but real life? Disney and anime are great examples of how other people stylize, but that's just it: those people have studied how real animals, how real people move and interact. They've studied perspective, and lighting, and shadow, and expression.

To combine both animal and human aspects well is a highly specialized skill that only a relative handful of people can do. I hope to one day be one of those, but until then I'm still a student of better artists, and of my own reference material. I've been out of college for 8 years, and don't nearly draw from live reference material as much as I should, I admit. Most of my recent art is drawn from memory of how I learned bodies are put together, but still, that's a memory of learning from real life. I still have a long way to go however.


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