# Why Do People Use Dogpatch Press As A Legitimate Source?



## ResolutionBlaze (Mar 23, 2018)

I've spoken with him before.

He's an obsessive moral busybody whom has no intellectual honesty and exaggerates his articles so that they support his left leaning ideology.

I haven't seen many neutral articles from him but my experience from it is that he's unreliable, and he has treated people unfairly and participates in Antifa/Communist furry groups or works alongside them.

Why is his stuff posted around here like they have any semblance of validity?


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 23, 2018)

Why is Breitbart cited as though it has any semblance of validity? Why do people buy tabloid press? 

People like things that can be passed off as news that confirm their beliefs, and people like juicy, exploitative stories. 

I personally consider Dogpatch Press to be tabloid news at best. Unfortunately there aren't many furry news sources; Flayrah is _maybe_ marginally better but not more. Not saying we desperately _need_ a furry news source, but lack of credible competition is still a factor in how Dogpatch has managed to get as much of a foothold as it has. Much like people are inclined to take the results from the furry surveys as definitive indication where fandom demographics are concerned, despite the flaws in their methodology, simply because it's the best data around and they apparently feel a need for data.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Mar 23, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Why is Breitbart cited as though it has any semblance of validity? Why do people buy tabloid press?
> 
> People like things that can be passed off as news that confirm their beliefs, and people like juicy, exploitative stories.
> 
> I personally consider Dogpatch Press to be tabloid news at best. Unfortunately there aren't many furry news sources; Flayrah is _maybe_ marginally better but not more. Not saying we desperately _need_ a furry news source, but lack of credible competition is still a factor in how Dogpatch has managed to get as much of a foothold as it has. Much like people are inclined to take the results from the furry surveys as definitive indication where fandom demographics are concerned, despite the flaws in their methodology, simply because it's the best data around and they apparently feel a need for data.



Guess that makes sense.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Mar 23, 2018)

I've never even heard of the guy.


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## lupi900 (Mar 26, 2018)

So your upset a furry news blog has bias?.


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## Ciderfine (Mar 26, 2018)

Wow, havent heard of this before. I admit I dont know nothing of this user but anything that starts with a news network or blog run by a furry can NOT be good news for anyone. Furries are to unstable to even run a dance party. Sounds like every swj furry I've met tbh.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Mar 27, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> So your upset a furry news blog has bias?.



I'm upset because people use him as a legitimate source sometimes.  And I'm confused why when there's nothing legitimate.


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## lupi900 (Mar 27, 2018)

Ciderfine said:


> Wow, havent heard of this before. I admit I dont know nothing of this user but anything that starts with a news network or blog run by a furry can NOT be good news for anyone. Furries are to unstable to even run a dance party. Sounds like every swj furry I've met tbh.



Why the fuck are you here if the owner being furry bugs you to the calling them unstable?. That pretty rich coming from a guy that resorts to insult's and block threats, when your garbage posts are called out.



ResolutionBlaze said:


> I'm upset because people use him as a legitimate source sometimes.  And I'm confused why when there's nothing legitimate.



So he not legitimate because his viewpoints differ from your own. That pretty immature reason why his blog should be ignored. You and others profiles say your over 21 yet you all sound 16 as far I'm concerned.


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## quoting_mungo (Mar 27, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> So he not legitimate because his viewpoints differ from your own. That pretty immature reason why his blog should be ignored. You and others profiles say your over 21 yet you all sound 16 as far I'm concerned.


Patch's journalistic integrity is seriously questionable. That has nothing to do with his viewpoints differing from mine or anyone else's (beyond maybe "his viewpoints include thinking it's okay to throw random other people under the bus if it makes for a juicy headline" - that does factor into my opinions about him as a journalist). He will do tabloid style reporting. He doesn't try very hard to find the truth if the commonly accepted narrative makes for a good story. He will not go out of his way to correct himself when he pushes a narrative that turns out to be flawed.

Some people here may remember there was a troll attack on FA shortly after I resigned. Patch tweeted something to the general effect of "FA is getting hammered with shock photos; this coincides with quoting_mungo's resignation". Anyone who's done a modicum of critical text analysis on any kind of advanced level knows that juxtaposing statements like that is a way of suggesting the two clauses are related. I asked him to please leave me out of it, and his response was basically to say "nope, I'm gonna do what I want because I've decided that you're a public figure and if anyone reads a connection into my statement that's their problem because I totally didn't imply one". (I'm paraphrasing heavily, but that was the general gist of it.) That's irresponsible use of his platform, and is also being a bit (or a lot) of a dick. There was also noise more than once while I was still on staff about him being in the planning stages of an article about how I am supposedly a nazi sympathizer. Which is a pretty good example of starting on the conclusion end and finding material to support that conclusion, rather than trying to find objective facts. Not good journalism.

Articles on AltFurry posted to his site include way more in the way of chat log screenshots than necessary to illustrate the article's narrative. That's irresponsible use of his platform, as well; regardless of how untenable the opinions expressed in those logs are, they were said in a forum (in the sense of "area for discussion") where the participants had a reasonable expectation of relative privacy, and since they are not (in most cases) public figures in any meaningful sense of the word, violating that privacy for the sake of a scoop is pretty questionable ethics. (This is an objection on privacy grounds, note, _not_ on grounds of who was or was not targeted.)

He is also far too invested in the content published on his site. I voiced a point of criticism regarding a guest article (while also saying, as I recall, that it was overall a decent article, so I wasn't slamming it by any stretch, just pointing out one quibble I had that I found rather ironic), and he put far more effort into showing how my reading of the article supposedly was wrong than any reasonable editor should. This is... sorta fine if you're running your site as a "my personal opinions" blog (still should be more open to criticism, but it's more understandable), but if you want to present yourself as a credible news source, such unprofessional responses to criticism do not belong. 

So maybe rather than throw out that people who don't like Patch's reporting "sound 16 as far I'm [sic] concerned", try making a substantial argument as to why you think Patch's reporting and Dogpatch Press should be respected as a legitimate news source?


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## ResolutionBlaze (Mar 27, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> So he not legitimate because his viewpoints differ from your own. That pretty immature reason why his blog should be ignored. You and others profiles say your over 21 yet you all sound 16 as far I'm concerned.



I've never actually stated this so going on about it as though you're correct is not making you look any morally or intellectually superior.


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## Infrarednexus (Mar 27, 2018)

I remember reading a Dogpatch press article reviewing 2 The Ranting Griffon and how he got banned from performing at Anthrocon. Needless to say it was very one sided. However a different opinion doesn't bother me, as everyone is entitled to their own, but the things him and others said about 2 were borderline insane. Sure he has a dark and unfiltered sense of humor, but I've seen all his shows on YouTube, heard all his rants, seen all his streams. He may be salty and lacking in etiquette, but he is not a bigot or a racist. I have met real racists and Nazi's. They are terrible people who I avoid at all costs. 2 Griffon is not one of these people. He is actually a really nice and friendly guy who just has a different sense of humor than the rest of us. It's sad when people use these cruel labels to smear people they don't like, and that story written about 2 was enough to make me hate Dogpatch for their dishonesty and lack of perspective.


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## Cawdabra (Mar 27, 2018)

Dogpatch is a serial public masturbater anyway. (Seriously, there's a bunch of videos of it)


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## Rochat (Mar 27, 2018)

I'm... I'm really surprised that a "furry news blog" is even a thing. lol.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 18, 2018)

DogPatch is a joke. Fun to watch go around making a fool of himself with shit always taken out of context, though.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

Peeps, calm thy selves. Dogpatch ain't my cup of tea, either, but he has his moments. I take him as a topical fan writer who occasionally pens serious stories, which are relatively well-sourced for a fandom magazine. As for his journalistic bona fides, what, should I read about the real and relevant issues affecting furries worldwide in the Wall Street Journal? Come on. He is a chronicler of fandom happenings who sometimes bothers himself enough to expose certain negative happenings in the furry fandom, like the pup play mess at that FWA convention or these Alt-Lite fuckups that crave the attention anyway. Does he really bother and defame anyone here? Lighten up.

This is a lot of effort put into a dragging a man who got jerked off in public.


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## quoting_mungo (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Does he really bother and defame anyone here?


I suggest going back and reading this post. In short, yes, I consider the implications he's made about me defamatory, so he's demonstrably defamed someone here. Not that I think it matters very much to my criticism of his reporting.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I suggest going back and reading this post. In short, yes, I consider the implications he's made about me defamatory, so he's demonstrably defamed someone here. Not that I think it matters very much to my criticism of his reporting.


Maybe that is a legitimate beef. You could sue him depending on the nature of the attack and if it cost you future business and or employment. I would, if I was innocent as you say you are. 

As for AltFurry, fuck them. If you recruiting _minors _into a hate group that harbors who deny the _Holocaust_ happened, allowing known child groomers within said hate group, assisting white supremacists with trolling, baiting people on the main site to make them uncomfortable, and soliciting recognition from known racist groups. Now, those were just accusations, I would said you're justified in calling them slander and libel. But Dogpatch included _text_ and _audio _evidence from their own communications this shit was going on. What more do you want, video evidence and satellite surveillance? And @quoting_mungo , I'm surprised, you're really saying he "posted to his site include way more in the way of chat log screenshots than necessary to illustrate the article's narrative"? It's called sourcing. He provided he what needed to prove his story. It's one thing to say he didn't provide sufficient evidence you are a Nazi sympathizer. It's another to say he provided too much evidence exposing a hate group and defending their right to privacy. You're really going to argue that a hate group has a reasonable expectation to privacy but denounce the man who, for once, is doing something noteworthy in exposing them. Let AltFurry defend themselves and distance yourself from those accusations. Come. On. You're better than this. 

Furthermore, AltFurry appearing has been publishing their log openly, so can see how racist they are:

open-comms-logs.ququ-media.com: Index of /

And for those of saying I'm being a big-time SJW over the Altfurry's antics, I say, shouldn't we _all _be against these guys? (Hint: The answer is yes.)

dogpatch.press: Discord bans Altfurry hate speech – see what they’re hiding with a leaked organizer phone call.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> And for those of saying I'm being a big-time SJW over the Altfurry's antics, I say, shouldn't we _all _be against these guys? (Hint: The answer is yes.)
> 
> dogpatch.press: Discord bans Altfurry hate speech – see what they’re hiding with a leaked organizer phone call.


You speak as if you actually understand what the Alternative Furry "movement" is even about. Going by your statement, I'd say no. Hilarious.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> You speak as if you actually understand what the Alternative Furry "movement" is even about. Going by your statement, I'd say no. Hilarious.


That's the beauty of reading, Yakamaru. You learn things when you do it. Read the article.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Maybe that is a legitimate beef. You could sue him depending on the nature of the attack and if it cost you future business and or employment. I would, if I was innocent as you say you are.
> 
> As for AltFurry, fuck them. If you recruiting _minors _into a hate group that harbors who deny the _Holocaust_ happened, allowing known child groomers within said hate group, assisting white supremacists with trolling, baiting people on the main site to make them uncomfortable, and soliciting recognition from known racist groups. Now, those were just accusations, I would said you're justified in calling them slander and libel. But Dogpatch included _text_ and _audio _evidence from their own communications this shit was going on. What more do you want, video evidence and satellite surveillance? And @quoting_mungo , I'm surprised, you're really saying he "posted to his site include way more in the way of chat log screenshots than necessary to illustrate the article's narrative"? It's called sourcing. He provided he what needed to prove his story. It's one thing to say he didn't provide sufficient evidence you are a Nazi sympathizer. It's another to say he provided too much evidence exposing a hate group and defending their right to privacy. You're really going to argue that a hate group has a reasonable expectation to privacy but denounce the man who, for once, is doing something noteworthy in exposing them. Let AltFurry defend themselves and distance yourself from those accusations. Come. On. You're better than this.
> 
> ...



A) Who cares if they deny the Holocaust

B) Who cares if edgy minors are participating?

I wasn't around in Alt Furry during the whole grooming phenomena, but this seems more like moral outrage with no backbone with these two points.

I know there were reformed deviants in Alt Furry that were used as propaganda against them.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> That's the beauty of reading, Yakamaru. You learn things when you do it. Read the article.


I've read it when it was first released. It was full of shit back then, and is full of shit now. Out of context shit from one moron does not translate to everyone in the Alt-Furry "movement" being like that.

But I guess the owner of Dogpatch won't stop even with a third lawsuit having been filed against him. He's still going to continue his drivel.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I've read it when it was first released. It was full of shit back then, and is full of shit now. Out of context shit from one moron does not translate to everyone in the Alt-Furry "movement" being like that.
> 
> But I guess the owner of Dogpatch won't stop even with a third lawsuit having been filed against him. He's still going to continue his drivel.


Going by those open logs, I'd say I have pretty decent idea. Shall I quote?

As for the lawsuits, if he's guilty he'll go down for it. Less fluff in world is never a bad thing.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> A) Who cares if they deny the Holocaust
> 
> B) Who cares if edgy minors are participating?
> 
> ...



A) Clearly you're not Jewish. I could name 6 million people who might have.

B) Yes, let's allow kids to recruited by hate group staffed by admins who've made questionable choices around children, to say the least.

Bonus Answer: Yes. I can see people with morals would be outraged by this stuff. Such SJWs.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Going by those open logs, I'd say I have pretty decent idea. Shall I quote?
> 
> As for the lawsuits, if he's guilty he'll go down for it. Less fluff in world is never a bad thing.


Nah. Not interested in making this a long conversation. Will end it here.

I see heavy trashtalking and shitty memes. And the owner of our lovely DogPatch taking it seriously. 

I can smell a 4th lawsuit on the horizon..


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Nah. Not interested in making this a long conversation. Will end it here.
> 
> I see heavy trashtalking and shitty memes. And the owner of our lovely DogPatch taking it seriously.
> 
> I can smell a 4th lawsuit on the horizon..


I bet you don't want me to quote...

...But I probably will anyway.

It is good when a man realizes he has nothing left to say.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> A) Clearly you're not Jewish. I could name 6 million people who might have.
> 
> B) Yes, let's allow kids to recruited by hate group staffed by admins who've made questionable choices around children, to say the least.
> 
> Bonus Answer: Yes. I can see people with morals would be outraged by this stuff. Such SJWs.



A is an emotional appeal, not an argument.  You can't make an ethical appeal by saying "well someone probably cares" because that's obviously true for anything that has a hint of controversy.  Since this is a matter of belief, is far more complicated to say simply "people care so it matters" than if it were something like, say, cub, or a governmental policy.

B you've tainted the question by mixing it with "admins who've made questionable choices around children" which may be relevant to Alt Furry but is not relevant to the question I asked.  Again, you're making an argument by simply saying "Pfft" rather than actually constructing a thoughtful argument against my points.

Again, you're making moral arguments with no backbone.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> A is an emotional appeal, not an argument.  You can't make an ethical appeal by saying "well someone probably cares" because that's obviously true for anything that has a hint of controversy.  Since this is a matter of belief, is far more complicated to say simply "people care so it matters" than if it were something like, say, cub, or a governmental policy.
> 
> B you've tainted the question by mixing it with "admins who've made questionable choices around children" which may be relevant to Alt Furry but is not relevant to the question I asked.  Again, you're making an argument by simply saying "Pfft" rather than actually constructing a thoughtful argument against my points.
> 
> Again, you're making moral arguments with no backbone.


Holy shit. You're really doing this. 

A) Spreading misinformation about Holocaust, in which 6 million people were murdered and Allied Forces fought to stop, is extremely troubling because it trying to erase the idea that this genocide was tragedy that should be repeated. Usually, this is enough of an argument for most people because, you know, genocide is bad. Like very bad. Also, the way phrased your response sounds as you do not care 6 million people were murdered in the Holocaust. Most normal people are alarmed by this. You could also try to be better tripping up people with semantics.

B) Of course. You're right. Who cares if children are being taught by hate group the Holocaust was staged? There is nothing wrong at all about revisionist history. Repeating the same historical mistakes twice? That's for suckers who learn actual history. 

You're not very good at this, are you?


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Holy shit. You're really doing this.
> 
> A) Spreading misinformation about Holocaust, in which 6 million people were murdered and Allied Forces fought to stop, is extremely troubling because it trying to erase the idea that this genocide was tragedy that should be repeated. Usually, this is enough of an argument for most people because, you know, genocide is bad. Like very bad. Also, the way phrased your response sounds as you do not care 6 million people were murdered in the Holocaust. Most normal people are alarmed by this. You could also try to be better tripping up people with semantics.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't have to utilize semantics if you used a direct answer for once.

Misinformation is bad, yes.  The Holocaust was bad, yes.  But Holocaust denial isn't the advocation that the genocide should be repeated.  But you keep avoiding the question of who cares.  These people aren't in power, their voices are a minority in the fandom even moreso in the greater landscape of the world, and even the Alt Furs who actually believe that are in a minority.  However ignorant their beliefs, "They don't believe in this" is not a grounds for someone to actually care.  There are far more dangerous things than several conspiracy theorists.


As for your second point:






It's not your job to parent other people's children.  If their parents are so ignorant or even support this sort of thing it's not your business so you have no say on the matter.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I wouldn't have to utilize semantics if you used a direct answer for once.
> 
> Misinformation is bad, yes.  The Holocaust was bad, yes.  But Holocaust denial isn't the advocation that the genocide should be repeated.  But you keep avoiding the question of who cares.  These people aren't in power, their voices are a minority in the fandom even moreso in the greater landscape of the world, and even the Alt Furs who actually believe that are in a minority.  However ignorant their beliefs, "They don't believe in this" is not a grounds for someone to actually care.  There are far more dangerous things than several conspiracy theorists.
> 
> ...


You must be acting. No one is this stupid while pretending to be smart. It just isn't possible.

I never said Holocaust deniers were advocating for genocide. They are setting the stage for the situation to repeat because, if don't believe the Holocaust happened in the first place, you probably won't act to prevent it. And usually the people who are Holocaust deniers are also fans of the Nazis. You are right they are in the minority. You are even right about it technically not being my business, initially. But there are statutes in the United States where children can be confiscated from the households of their parents if the parents are members of a hate group. A school can report a child who belongs to a hate group or is being recruited by one. This is due to a little thing in this country called child welfare laws, another SJW invention. All those SJW social workers are bothersome, always thinking of the children. It turns society and the government actually care about what happens to minors.

Though I can see how you, as an Altfurry, have a problem grasping the legal concept of child welfare and problem of Holocaust denial.

I must be at Seaworld because I see a sealion!


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You must be acting. No one is this stupid while pretending to be smart. It just isn't possible.
> 
> I never said Holocaust deniers were advocating for genocide. They are setting the stage for the situation to repeat because, if don't believe the Holocaust happened in the first place, you probably won't act to prevent it. And usually the people who are Holocaust deniers are also fans of the Nazis. You are right they are in the minority. You are even right about it technically not being my business, initially. But there are statutes in the United States where children can be confiscated from the households of their parents if the parents are members of a hate group. A school can report a child who belongs to a hate group or is being recruited by one. This is due to a little thing in this country called child welfare laws, another SJW invention. *All those SJW social workers are bothersome, always thinking of the children. It turns society and the government actually care about what happens to minors.*
> 
> ...



I never insulted you once.  Your arrogance is astounding.

But sure, go ahead and call Holocaust deniers horrible but also advocate for the government and SJWs to confiscate children based on the households political standings, because there is_ no_ possible way that the_ government_ or_ SJWs_ of all things have any sort of_ agenda_ that could affect_ anyone_ in_ any_ negative fashion.  Certainly SJWs aren't using_ justification_ or_ group identity tactics_ to criminalize those who align with the status quo.

I'm not saying teaching children stuff like Supremacist thinking or Nazi teachings is good... but you seriously think that stealing people's children away because of their convictions is really gonna make the situation with Nazis any better?

Furthermore, you truly think the government should have the power to confiscate children based on a vague term that can be altered depending on the people in power?  You must be* extremely* naïve about the government if you think that.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I never insulted you once.  Your arrogance is astounding.
> 
> But sure, go ahead and call Holocaust deniers horrible but also advocate for the government and SJWs to confiscate children based on the households political standings, because there is_ no_ possible way that the_ government_ or_ SJWs_ of all things have any sort of_ agenda_ that could affect_ anyone_ in_ any_ negative fashion.  Certainly SJWs aren't using_ justification_ or_ group identity tactics_ to criminalize those who align with the status quo.
> 
> ...


Drama Queen.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Drama Queen.



Can you not?

Just because you can go around claiming "Sealioning" whenever someone makes a counter point against you doesn't mean you get to act however you want to the person in question.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I never insulted you once.  Your arrogance is astounding.
> 
> But sure, go ahead and call Holocaust deniers horrible but also advocate for the government and SJWs to confiscate children based on the households political standings, because there is_ no_ possible way that the_ government_ or_ SJWs_ of all things have any sort of_ agenda_ that could affect_ anyone_ in_ any_ negative fashion.  Certainly SJWs aren't using_ justification_ or_ group identity tactics_ to criminalize those who align with the status quo.
> 
> ...


*Are you whinging about how the government and the law do not approve of children being raised to be Nazi, white supremacists, or racists by hate groups? Seriously?

Fascinating.*


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I never insulted you once.  Your arrogance is astounding.
> 
> But sure, go ahead and call Holocaust deniers horrible but also advocate for the government and SJWs to confiscate children based on the households political standings, because there is_ no_ possible way that the_ government_ or_ SJWs_ of all things have any sort of_ agenda_ that could affect_ anyone_ in_ any_ negative fashion.  Certainly SJWs aren't using_ justification_ or_ group identity tactics_ to criminalize those who align with the status quo.
> 
> ...


*And this coming from a man who started a thread discussing the evils of cub pornography?
*
_*LOL.

Self-awareness is dead.*_


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> *Are you whinging about how the government and the law do not approve of children being raised to be Nazi, white supremacists, or racists by hate groups? Seriously?
> 
> Fascinating.*



No.  Your blind faith in the government astounds me, a faith that is only derived because the victims of this are "only Nazis" and forego any other potential consequences of confiscating children based on political alignment of parents and what they teach their children.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> *And this coming from a man who started a thread discussing the evils of cub pornography?
> *
> _*LOL.
> 
> Self-awareness is dead.*_



I am completely aware that the two situations are not comparable.

I also know that I did not start a thread based on the evils of cub porn, but if the backlash against cub was increasing over the last few years.  I never really mentioned the ethical implications of cub in said thread.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> No.  Your blind faith in the government astounds me, a faith that is only derived because the victims of this are "only Nazis" and forego any other potential consequences of confiscating children based on political alignment of parents and what they teach their children.


So do you think Nazis make fit parents?


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> So do you think Nazis make fit parents?



Irrelevant question.  I already stated that Nazism is bad and Holocaust deniers are ignorant.


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## Deleted member 115426 (Apr 18, 2018)

I hate how the only real active threads on this damn site is all about what people hate or something controversial. *sigh* There's open chat but really there's nothing good going on here.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Irrelevant question.  I already stated that Nazism is bad and Holocaust deniers are ignorant.


Now I know you're not lawyer. It's relevant because that is the basis on which the government is confiscating children from an unsafe environment that poses a developmental hazard created by their Nazi legal guardians.

Must I spell out everything?

Wow, you're a pro sealion.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I hate how the only real active threads on this damn site is all about what people hate or something controversial. *sigh* There's open chat but really there's nothing good going on here.



I'm attracted to controversy like moth to a flame.

It's political juices are succulent.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> I hate how the only real active threads on this damn site is all about what people hate or something controversial. *sigh* There's open chat but really there's nothing good going on here.


You can't please everyone.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Now I know you're not lawyer. It's relevant because that is the basis on which the government is confiscating children from an unsafe environment that poses a developmental hazard created by their Nazi legal guardians.
> 
> Must I spell out everything?
> 
> Wow, you're a pro sealion.



Who is the government to determine what political ideologies are considered unsafe?

Y'know, I tend to call out logical fallacies a lot.  But that isn't out of malice.  It's because they help the other user develop a better argument, one that has more sense and follows rational thinking.  Calling fallacies doesn't win discussions, in fact it improves them; it allows the debater a chance to adjust their position, especially over the internet, so they can be sharper for future discussion.  But I guess that all goes out the window when you can call any one a sealion that tries to utilize rational arguments against you.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Who is the government to determine what political ideologies are considered unsafe?
> 
> Y'know, I tend to call out logical fallacies a lot.  But that isn't out of malice.  It's because they help the other user develop a better argument, one that has more sense and follows rational thinking.  Calling fallacies doesn't win discussions, in fact it improves them; it allows the debater a chance to adjust their position, especially over the internet, so they can be sharper for future discussion.  But I guess that all goes out the window when you can call any one a sealion that tries to utilize rational arguments against you.


I would say Nazism is an unsafe ideology for children. Wouldn't you?

I would also say someone has to ensure child welfare in cases where the parents are clearly unfit.

I also think that for a person who overusing the words logical fallacy, you do not actually understand what one is.


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I would say Nazism is an unsafe ideology for children. Wouldn't you?
> 
> I would also say someone has to ensure child welfare in cases where the parents are clearly unfit.
> 
> I also think that for a person who overusing the words logical fallacy, you do not actually understand what one is.



I know as soon as I call you out for one you'll call it Sealioning and ignore it and use it as an excuse to continue acting malicious toward me so there's no point.  You haven't shown me you'd do otherwise so why bother?

Also considering I've only said the words "logical fallacy" once in this entire thread I would probably say that you're grossly exaggerating.

And I would say anything that can bring physical harm to a child is unsafe for a child.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I know as soon as I call you out for one you'll call it Sealioning and ignore it and use it as an excuse to continue acting malicious toward me so there's no point.  You haven't shown me you'd do otherwise so why bother?
> 
> Also considering I've only said the words "logical fallacy" once in this entire thread I would probably say that you're grossly exaggerating.
> 
> And I would say anything that can bring physical harm to a child is unsafe for a child.


Stop prevaricating. Answer those two questions. I promise I'll respect you more.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Stop prevaricating. Answer those two questions. I promise I'll respect you more.



You asked one, which I answered:

Nazi belief can no doubt harm the education of a child.  But ignorant beliefs is not grounds to confiscate the child, and are not damaging enough because the child has, hopefully, free reign to accept or deny these beliefs.  Even if they've had the beliefs since they were young, confiscating them from their parents just because they're ignorant beliefs is dangerous as hell.

I mean, God help the Christians when anti-theists decide that religious teachings are considered unsafe.  Or Conservatism.  Or anything that falls under the vague umbrella of "Far Right".


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 18, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> You asked one, which I answered:
> 
> Nazi belief can no doubt harm the education of a child.  But ignorant beliefs is not grounds to confiscate the child, and are not damaging enough because the child has, hopefully, free reign to accept or deny these beliefs.  Even if they've had the beliefs since they were young, confiscating them from their parents just because they're ignorant beliefs is dangerous as hell.
> 
> I mean, God help the Christians when anti-theists decide that religious teachings are considered unsafe.  Or Conservatism.  Or anything that falls under the vague umbrella of "Far Right".


You seem to be under the illusion that these child welfare laws are proposals. They are laws currently enforced in all fifty states. Raising a child as a Nazi is considered a developmental hazard. You say that a child has free reign to accept or deny these beliefs. In the eyes of the law, the child is a minor who cannot fend for themselves and whose development and welfare is being threatened by their parents. This is the same reasoning, legally behind why children are not considered consenting sexual partners, eligible to serve in the military, eligible for emancipation in most cases, eligible for to vote, eligible to use alcohol, eligible to view movies above their age rating, or use software not rated for them. You may not agree with this, but this is legal reasoning established by years precedent.

As for Christian and Conservative parents being considered unfit parents, these ideologies do not drive people to harm children obviously and anyone trying to get the executive, legislative, and judiciary branches to sign off on these ideologies as developmental hazards is in for a harsh lesson on political realities for reasons you should be smart enough to know.

If not, I'm sure your friends in Altfurry will support you. Bless your heart.


----------



## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 18, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You seem to be under the illusion that these child welfare laws are proposals. They are laws currently enforced in all fifty states. Raising a child as a Nazi is considered a developmental hazard. You say that a child has free reign to accept or deny these beliefs. In the eyes of the law, the child is a minor who cannot fend for themselves and whose development and welfare is being threatened by their parents. This is the same reasoning, legally behind why children are not considered consenting sexual partners, eligible to serve in the military, eligible for emancipation in most cases, eligible for to vote, eligible to use alcohol, eligible to view movies above their age rating, or use software not rated for them. You may not agree with this, but this is legal reasoning established by years precedent.
> 
> As for Christian and Conservative parents being considered unfit parents, these ideologies do not drive people to harm child obviously and anyone trying to get the executive, legislative, and judiciary branches to sign off on these ideologies as developmental hazards is in for a harsh lesson on political realities for reasons you should be smart enough to know.
> 
> If not, I'm sure your friends in Altfurry will support you. Bless your heart.



I am fully aware that these are current law.  And they are absurd laws.

It's not even in the same realm of reasoning as sexuality or military service.  The only reasoning here is that "Nazis are bad" but then why isn't other ideologies like communism or radical feminism considered in the same boat?  There is no reasoning behind it, if there were we'd take it down to its logical conclusion; if ignorance harms the development of a child, we have a moral duty to remove the child from any potential ignorant ideology.  At that point, it's all about what defines an ignorant ideology; if the government has control of that definition, god help us all then.

You have a whole post and you still do not give a solid reason as to why a child should be taken away from parents other than "Nazis are bad" or that Nazi individuals are always violent and thus will always teach their children violence (I'm saying this as an inquiry that you must assume this if you think so, because otherwise a Christian household who does not accept homosexuality can be put into the same boat of hate speech.  What do you do then?)


----------



## quoting_mungo (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> It's called sourcing. He provided he what needed to prove his story.


No. He provided _more_ than he needed to support the claims made in the body of the article itself. There are screenshots there that serve no citational purpose.



LogicNuke said:


> It's another to say he provided too much evidence exposing a hate group and defending their right to privacy. You're really going to argue that a hate group has a reasonable expectation to privacy but denounce the man who, for once, is doing something noteworthy in exposing them. Let AltFurry defend themselves and distance yourself from those accusations. Come. On. You're better than this.


In a closed group chat the participants have a reasonable expectation of privacy, yes, and the nature of that closed group (or the topics of conversation that come up therein) doesn't change that. If you're going to violate that privacy, you should be doing so judiciously, and only after weighing the benefit of sharing the information against the value of _any_ person's privacy. This does not mean _no_ logs should have been shared. Clearly if you're going to throw out accusations you should be sourcing your claims. But each screenshot should be directly related to the text and claims of the article. Having more of them doesn't mean you have to share each one. Sharing more than you need to in order to support your claims just because it's salacious is tabloid press tactics.

I am a firm believer in treating others no worse than you would have them treat you; saying this or that group doesn't deserve fair treatment because of their beliefs doesn't fly with me. If you read into my criticism of Patch's journalistic method and use of his platform that I am "defending" AltFurry, you're clearly not understanding my message. Now, that might be on me. Maybe I didn't manage to be clear enough. But more likely, given how you attempt to turn criticism of Patch's methods into a discussion of AltFurry's wrongs, you are letting your disdain for the targeted group color your interpretation.

_If_ Dogpatch Press is to be considered as a legitimate news source, it should be held to journalistic standards as one. Excusing poor journalism because it exposes bad people is doing yourself, as a consumer of that journalism, a disservice in the long run. It is possible to say a decent thing was done in an absolutely hamfisted way without saying the decent thing shouldn't have been done at all. 



LogicNuke said:


> You could sue him depending on the nature of the attack and if it cost you future business and or employment. I would, if I was innocent as you say you are.


I'll hit you up to pay for that international lawsuit, then. :V


----------



## Ginza (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> *Are you whinging about how the government and the law do not approve of children being raised to be Nazi, white supremacists, or racists by hate groups? Seriously?
> 
> Fascinating.*




Stop. Calling. People. You. Disagree. With. Nazis.


It’s ridiculous, and honestly disgusting. Are you honestly going to compare a closed-minded conservative, to someone who participated in the genocide of a group of people? That’s pretty fucking horrible if you ask me


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

>LogicNuke
>Doesn't logic

Something is wrong here. Oh, wait. Did you nuke logic? Because that would explain your nick.

Mungo is so on point today I want to hit her up and kiss her. But that might be a tad weird.


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 19, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Why is Breitbart cited as though it has any semblance of validity?



because Breitbart was not always a batshit crazy news source they started off reporting honestly this happened a lot during the Western media blackout of Ukraine (western outlets were told not to report on anything painting Russia positively) and Breitbart does continue to do this to some degree they have gotten better and provide sources for their claims but they used to just say "our insider" or what ever 

take the refugee thing Breitbart first reported there were no go areas in Germany years ago and it was written off as a wild conspiracy but who confirmed it years later? the mass rape in cologne was similar only Brietbart was reporting on it


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> >LogicNuke
> >Doesn't logic
> 
> Something is wrong here. Oh, wait. Did you nuke logic? Because that would explain your nick.
> ...


Sick burn, dude. It only took you twelve hours to come up with that! Bravo!

But specifically, what was wrong with what I was arguing? I don't see any argument here. You just said I'm illogical. At least Blaze tries to make an argument.

Did you come back for my quote recital?


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 19, 2018)

aren't you all literally arguing over a furry currently locked up for kiddy diddling or is that some one else


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Stop. Calling. People. You. Disagree. With. Nazis.
> 
> 
> It’s ridiculous, and honestly disgusting. Are you honestly going to compare a closed-minded conservative, to someone who participated in the genocide of a group of people? That’s pretty fucking horrible if you ask me


You need to get your talking points straight.

Look back at what I said. I never called Altfurry Nazis. I just made the argument that Nazis are considered unfit parents by US code.

I've got no beef with conservatives. Did I say did? Again, rehearse you talking points and apply them in the appropriate situations.


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Stop. Calling. People. You. Disagree. With. Nazis.
> 
> 
> It’s ridiculous, and honestly disgusting. Are you honestly going to compare a closed-minded conservative, to someone who participated in the genocide of a group of people? That’s pretty fucking horrible if you ask me





LogicNuke said:


> You need to get your talking points straight.
> 
> Look back at what I said. I never called Altfurry Nazis. I just made the argument that Nazis are considered unfit parents by US code.
> 
> I've got no beef with conservatives. Did I say did? Again, rehearse you talking point and apply them in the appropriate situations.




look Ginza in all honesty LogicNuke is probably one of the most centralist people ive met on this site based of private PMs and if you know me at all i'm centre right under US law Antifa and BLM fall under Hate groups also as far as i'm aware i know Antifa is listed as domestic terrorism too


----------



## lupi900 (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Sick burn, dude. It only took you twelve hours to come up with that! Bravo!
> 
> But specifically, what was wrong with what I was arguing? I don't see any argument here. You just said I'm illogical. At least Blaze tries to make an argument.
> 
> Did you come back for my quote recital?



Cue another 12 more when he goes on how the antiFA furries are okay & more dodging your points.



GreenZone said:


> look Giza in all honesty LogicNuke is probably one of the most centralist people ive met on this site based of private PMs and if you know me at all i'm centre right under US law Antifa and BLM fall under Hate groups also as far as i'm aware i know Antifa is listed as domestic terrorism too



That pretty much what logic was getting at when yak/res wen't pro-antifa. I have no idea where the defending nazi's or something came from?. Maybe she should actually read posts instead of just going off at people for stuff they never said.


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 19, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> hat pretty much what logic was getting at when yak/res wen't pro-antifa. I have no idea where the defending nazi's or something came from?. Maybe she should actually read posts instead of just going off at people for stuff they never said




she looks pretty against Antifa bruh she said stop calling people nazis 

people are just getting heated up i know from experience in these situations its usually centralists who cop the most flak they're called commies or nazis


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I am fully aware that these are current law.  And they are absurd laws.
> 
> It's not even in the same realm of reasoning as sexuality or military service.  The only reasoning here is that "Nazis are bad" but then why isn't other ideologies like communism or radical feminism considered in the same boat?  There is no reasoning behind it, if there were we'd take it down to its logical conclusion; if ignorance harms the development of a child, we have a moral duty to remove the child from any potential ignorant ideology.  At that point, it's all about what defines an ignorant ideology; if the government has control of that definition, god help us all then.
> 
> You have a whole post and you still do not give a solid reason as to why a child should be taken away from parents other than "Nazis are bad" or that Nazi individuals are always violent and thus will always teach their children violence (I'm saying this as an inquiry that you must assume this if you think so, because otherwise a Christian household who does not accept homosexuality can be put into the same boat of hate speech.  What do you do then?)


Dude, the government seizes children from all kinds of communes and cult with those kinds of ideologies under child welfare laws. About the example you gave with the homophobic Christian household, the parents have embrace an whole ideology or hate group, not just one particular flawed principle. This is why we have judges issue warrants.

Know the law.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 19, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> look Ginza in all honesty LogicNuke is probably one of the most centralist people ive met on this site based of private PMs and if you know me at all i'm centre right under US law Antifa and BLM fall under Hate groups also as far as i'm aware i know Antifa is listed as domestic terrorism too



If he’s a centrist, then I’m so far right, I broke the fucking political scale


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> If he’s a centrist, then I’m so far right, I broke the fucking political scale


Maybe you're far right, then?


----------



## Ginza (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Maybe you're far right, then?



But I’m actually not. It should be clear that I’m not, from my posts as well


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> But I’m actually not. It should be clear that I’m not, from my posts as well


Good for you. Now you know how I feel.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> In a closed group chat the participants have a reasonable expectation of privacy, yes, and the nature of that closed group (or the topics of conversation that come up therein) doesn't change that. If you're going to violate that privacy, you should be doing so judiciously, and only after weighing the benefit of sharing the information against the value of _any_ person's privacy. This does not mean _no_ logs should have been shared. Clearly if you're going to throw out accusations you should be sourcing your claims. But each screenshot should be directly related to the text and claims of the article. Having more of them doesn't mean you have to share each one. Sharing more than you need to in order to support your claims just because it's salacious is tabloid press tactics.
> 
> I am a firm believer in treating others no worse than you would have them treat you; saying this or that group doesn't deserve fair treatment because of their beliefs doesn't fly with me. If you read into my criticism of Patch's journalistic method and use of his platform that I am "defending" AltFurry, you're clearly not understanding my message. Now, that might be on me. Maybe I didn't manage to be clear enough. But more likely, given how you attempt to turn criticism of Patch's methods into a discussion of AltFurry's wrongs, you are letting your disdain for the targeted group color your interpretation.
> 
> _If_ Dogpatch Press is to be considered as a legitimate news source, it should be held to journalistic standards as one. Excusing poor journalism because it exposes bad people is doing yourself, as a consumer of that journalism, a disservice in the long run. It is possible to say a decent thing was done in an absolutely hamfisted way without saying the decent thing shouldn't have been done at all.



Most of the screenshots are relevant to the cases he is making. The call log was always relevant to provide context to what he is saying.  Could the focus have been narrowed? Perhaps, but then certain people would be claiming their quotes were taken out of context.

You say my "disdain for the targeted group" is coloring my perception of Dogpatch's journalistic. Let me shatter that illusion. Dogpatch stole his evidence for this story from another forum which has published _far_ of Altfurry's business without _any _reservations about journalistic integrity. They have published information like phone numbers, home addresses, financial statuses, and criminal records in addition to any private communications they could get their hands on. Dogpatch, plagiarist and exhibitionist though he is, let Altfurry off light.

Now if you all really wanted to be constructive, you could have criticize him for this:

dogpatch.press: ORANGE IS THE NEW FLUFF: Furry Life in Prison – guest post by Farrah “Sisk” Barney

But, no. You needed to air out your grievances about him going after a hate group most people in the furry community knows deserves the disdain it gets. Meanwhile, Dogpatch is writing a sympathetic article about Sisk, who was sent to prison for sending nude photos to a minor in a solicitation attempt and now is begging the furry community to bail him out? From some of the same producers who brought us "Does The Backlash Against Cubs Seem To Be Increasing?", no one has anything to say about this? @quoting_mungo _may _be the only person who has a legitimate gripe with Dogpatch here. The rest of you clearly are butthurt that Dogpatch occasionally fucks you over easy. How about you give a shit about something other than yourselves and talk about the Sisk article, which even the Kiwis find time for:

kiwifarms.net: Furry Fandom and Drama General

If you're going to shit on Dogpatch, do it properly.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Most of the screenshots are relevant to the cases he is making. The call log was always relevant to provide context to what he is saying.  Could the focus have been narrowed? Perhaps, but then certain people would be claiming their quotes were taken out of context.
> 
> You say my "disdain for the targeted group" is coloring my perception of Dogpatch's journalistic. Let me shatter that illusion. Dogpatch stole his evidence for this story from another forum which has published _far_ of Altfurry's business without _any _reservations about journalistic integrity. They have published information like phone numbers, home addresses, financial statuses, and criminal records in addition to any private communications they could get their hands on. Dogpatch, plagiarist and exhibitionist though he is, let Altfurry off light.
> 
> ...


I find your posts more and more hilarious as time pass us by.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I find your posts more and more hilarious as time pass us by.


I try. What specifically do you find funny?

Or do you just say that because you can't answer them?


----------



## lupi900 (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> I find your posts more and more hilarious as time pass us by.



Why are you still here?,


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why are you still here?,


He lives for the last word, even if he has nothing to say.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Those who do not learn their history are doomed to repeat it.

Also, denying the Holocaust is asinine, insulting, and just downright fucking stupid.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Those who do not learn their history are doomed to repeat it.
> 
> Also, denying the Holocaust is asinine, insulting, and just downright fucking stupid.


I like how @Yakamaru likes this statement. As though he's not in a group where this belief is prevalent and a guy named legofreak doesn't have his own channel just for Holocaust denial.

Take your newfound respect for the Holocaust to your Altfurry buddies. They need it.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Well, look at that. @Yakamaru is feeling the love for us.


----------



## lupi900 (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I like how @Yakamaru likes this statement. As though he's not in a group where this belief is prevalent and a guy named legofreak doesn't have his own channel just for Holocaust denial.
> 
> Take your newfound respect for the Holocaust to your Altfurry buddies. They need it.



What do you expect from a guy who openly never read any of your links on alt-furry?.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> What do you expect from a guy who openly never read any of your links on alt-furry?.


Honesty.


----------



## lupi900 (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Honesty.



That seem's to a FAF issue when it comes to stuff like this.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

Ah, gotta love Mr. Lake. When he's not busy getting jerked off at pride parades he's busy stroking his hate on for AltFurry. Must be a difficult life, cherry picking screenshots to paint a one dimensional picture of a group that conforms to the pre existing bias he had against them and blocking anyone that would counter his asinine, ham fisted conclusions en masse.

Now where's my popcorn, this delightful shitshow of a thread can't be missed.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Ah, gotta love Mr. Lake. When he's not busy getting jerked off at pride parades he's busy stroking his hate on for AltFurry. Must be a difficult life, cherry picking screenshots to paint a picture of a group that conforms to the pre existing bias he had for them and blocking anyone that would counter his asinine, ham fisted conclusions en masse.
> 
> Now where's my popcorn, this delightful shitshow of a thread can't be missed.


Enter another Altfurry.

Yeah, Dogpatch is 90% dick, but he is right about Altfurry. Every dog has his day.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Enter another Altfurry.
> 
> Yeah, Dogpatch is 90% dick, but he is right about Altfurry. Every dog has his day.


Having spent enough time on their servers, no. Dogpatch is not right about AltFurry in the slightest.

Should i bother telling you that no one there is "groomed" into accepting far right ideologies or will my words now be tainted by the idiotic whisper of Crypto Fascism?


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Now where's my popcorn, this delightful shitshow of a thread can't be missed.


I have lots of supplies, bruh. All fresh. <3


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Having spent enough time on their servers, no. Dogpatch is not right about AltFurry in the slightest.


You could come out and say you're a member. Why beat around the bush? 

Furthermore, the text logs, audio call logs, and the open communication logs Altfurry subsequently released because they can never keep their shit undercover anyway all contradict that, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You could come out and say you're a member. Why beat around the bush?
> 
> Furthermore, the text logs, audio call logs, and the open communication logs Altfurry subsequently released because they can never keep their shit undercover anyway all contradict that, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


A like for the try though. 

Kyr's the most apolitical person I know across every single platform that I have been on.

Dunno if I should laugh at this statement, or find some more popcorn. Or both. Yeah, I will do both..


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 19, 2018)

Does anyone know of any other furry news outlets worth checking out besides Dogpatch?


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Does anyone know of any other furry news outlets worth checking out besides Dogpatch?


Hmm... Furry news? Dunno. Flayrah, perhaps?

I will look around, see if I find something slightly more credible than a sensationalist outlet. 

Might have better luck on Youtube and/or social media, to be honest. Got some pretty decent stuff out there. Majira Strawberry is pretty decent if my memory serves me correctly.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> You could come out and say you're a member. Why beat around the bush?
> 
> Furthermore, the text logs, audio call logs, and the open communication logs Altfurry subsequently released because they can never keep their shit undercover anyway all contradict that, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Yes, i'm a member of the altfurry servers, furry raiders server too before it was taken down. Wanted to see if there was any truth to the claims levied against them after running into Deo, you may know who she is.

And yes, lot of people like to sneak into altfurry servers just to leak screenshots. They're aware of this. Now would you like to mention anything specific in regards to text and call logs? Can't exactly comment on something so vague. Could talk a little about Legofreak though, seeing as he's someone specific you have brought up.


----------



## Ginza (Apr 19, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Does anyone know of any other furry news outlets worth checking out besides Dogpatch?



I also enjoy watching some of Ragehound’s stuff. I find her to be pleasantly unbiased, and do a good amount of research 

m.youtube.com: Ragehound

Her drama downloads are worth giving a watch IMO


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> I also enjoy watching some of Ragehound’s stuff. I find her to be pleasantly unbiased, and do a good amount of research
> 
> m.youtube.com: Ragehound
> 
> Her drama downloads are worth giving a watch IMO


Will check her out, love.

Can I expect a lot of rage?


----------



## Ginza (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Will check her out, love.
> 
> Can I expect a lot of rage?



Not much rage... but a good amount of fluff


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> A like for the try though.
> 
> Kyr's the most apolitical person I know across every single platform that I have been on.
> 
> Dunno if I should laugh at this statement, or find some more popcorn. Or both. Yeah, I will do both..


Well, it's nice to have you here when you bitched out yesterday.

One could ask why an "apolitical" person would join a group that bills itself as a political group.

Are going to say some more stupid things or just shut your mouth on the sidelines this time around?


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> I also enjoy watching some of Ragehound’s stuff. I find her to be pleasantly unbiased, and do a good amount of research
> 
> m.youtube.com: Ragehound
> 
> Her drama downloads are worth giving a watch IMO


Her fursuit is bootiful!


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

Ginza said:


> Not much rage... but a good amount of fluff


Oh yes. All the fluff!

OwO

Found a BuzzFeed video. This'll be fun.. =w=


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Apr 19, 2018)

Dropping this as a warning, but I'm not taking action against any accounts in this thread at this time.

@LogicNuke , @lupi900 

Chill.

Don't get so heated that your posts devolve into an argument.

I don't see any outright insult slinging, so I'm not counting anything as going into the area of harassment by the rule.  But I'm just dropping this as a reminder in the thread.  If you find yourself getting heated, take a moment to relax before posting.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

How do you really justify anything from a group of skinheads who wear animal costumes with obviously Nazi inspired insignia?  Little too coincidental and anti Semitic of them dontcha think?


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

SSJ3Mewtwo said:


> Dropping this as a warning, but I'm not taking action against any accounts in this thread at this time.
> 
> @LogicNuke , @lupi900
> 
> ...


Understood, though it was my fault. @lupi900 wasn't here for most of this argument. I'll keep things civil. Thank you for the warning.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> How do you really justify anything from a group of skinheads who wear animal costumes with obviously Nazi inspired insignia?  Little too coincidental and anti Semitic of them dontcha think?


Pretty sure this topic is about DogPatch, not AltFurries?

Can always create a different topic if it's interesting enough for people though.


----------



## SSJ3Mewtwo (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Understood, though it was my fault. @lupi900 wasn't here for most of this argument. I'll keep things civil. Thank you for the warning.


S'alright.  It's a touchy subject, so debate is pretty much inevitable.  It's just a matter of keeping things civil.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Well, it's nice to have you here when you bitched out yesterday.
> 
> One could ask why an "apolitical" person would join a group that bills itself as a political group.
> 
> Are going to say some more stupid things or just shut your mouth on the sidelines this time around?


While i appreciate that it's a lot easier to insult people than to engage in debate with someone that could potentially alter your point of view i do have to ask, would you have any response to my previous reply to you?


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> While i appreciate that it's a lot easier to insult people than to engage in debate with someone that could potentially alter your point of view i do have to ask, would you have any response to my previous reply to you?


Speak.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Pretty sure this topic is about DogPatch, not AltFurries?
> 
> Can always create a different topic if it's interesting enough for people though.


From what I’ve read, someone involved is pretty strong anti-alt right.  Not my fault the political alignment attracts actual neoNazis lol y’all need to make a sign


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> How do you really justify anything from a group of skinheads who wear animal costumes with obviously Nazi inspired insignia?  Little too coincidental and anti Semitic of them dontcha think?


Skinheads? Ohh, not heard that one before. Do you have proof that the members of these groups like to shave their heads to show solidarity?

And if you're referring to Foxler his armband was taken from the second life group Furzi, a nazifur community. Foxler himself isn't a nazi though. I mean he'd be a pretty poor one, he's mix raced and has a black boyfriend after all. The raiders server was also strikingly apolitical, was just another furfag server that had attained notoriety due to those armbands. Well, and the fox Hitler thing, but that was another fun little coincidence. Foxler's surname is Miller and he just put fox in front of it.



LogicNuke said:


> Speak.


In regards to what good sir?


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> From what I’ve read, someone involved is pretty strong anti-alt right.  Not my fault the political alignment attracts actual neoNazis lol y’all need to make a sign


Political alignment? AltFurries don't have one. They are all over the place. Everything from de facto Communists to Alt-Righters. All in the same place. Impossible? No. Not when you have a common cause: Being against the idea of political correctness and identity politics.

You know you've done fucked up when you have people regardless of their political convictions team up to fight you, despite all the infighting and disagreements. Well, not you personally, but the "you" as in someone who is for political correctness and/or identity politics and are shoving that onto others. Well, trying, anyway.

The AltFurry "movement" in and of itself is an apolitical one. It doesn't have any specific political beliefs. Well, apart from being against political correctness and identity politics, I guess, though those are more goals rather than political statements.

Alt-Furry does not translate to Alt-Right.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Skinheads? Ohh, not heard that one before. Do you have proof that the members of these groups like to shave their heads to show solidarity?
> 
> And f you're referring to Foxler his armband was taken from the second life group Furzi, a nazifur community. Foxler himself isn't a nazi though. I mean he'd be a pretty poor one, he's mix raced and has a black boyfriend after all. The raiders server was also strikingly apolitical, was just another furfag server that had attained notoriety due to those armbands. Well, and the fox Hitler thing, but that was another fun little coincidence. Foxler's surname is Miller and he just put fox in front of it.
> 
> ...



Foxler's WikiFur

Foxler has also been criticized for tagging a Fur Affinity submission of his character's reference sheet as "Nazi" and "Furzi" and referring to himself as such,[2][10] performing a Nazi salute in fursuit for a photograph,[10] using a modified version of the Nazi Imperial War Flag with the swastika replaced with a paw and the Iron Cross replaced with a fox head design,[11] paying money to join a Neo-Nazi group,[12] stating that he hates Black people and would rally for the Ku Klux Klan,[11] saying "I stand with Hitler",[11] and referring to himself as "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom",[13][14][15] in addition to associating himself with the "alt right", a term popularized by white supremacist Richard B. Spencer.[16]

Though Foxler is of mixed-Thai ancestry, this behavior has been criticized as "aping the forms, fashions, conduct, and politics of the Nazis".[17]

Those are a lot of coincidences.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Foxler's WikiFur
> 
> Foxler has also been criticized for tagging a Fur Affinity submission of his character's reference sheet as "Nazi" and "Furzi" and referring to himself as such,[2][10] performing a Nazi salute in fursuit for a photograph,[10] using a modified version of the Nazi Imperial War Flag with the swastika replaced with a paw and the Iron Cross replaced with a fox head design,[11] paying money to join a Neo-Nazi group,[12] stating that he hates Black people and would rally for the Ku Klux Klan,[11] saying "I stand with Hitler",[11] and referring to himself as "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom",[13][14][15] in addition to associating himself with the "alt right", a term popularized by white supremacist Richard B. Spencer.[16]
> 
> ...


Again, he’s the one lumping himself in with Nazis if that’s not his intended purpose lol. 
And what, pray tell, is the definition of “political correctness”?  Not sorry that people can’t say the N word anymore without getting your ass beat.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

I meant to split up my last comment but I’m still at work and time is a luxury I cannot afford rn


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> You know you've done fucked up when you have people regardless of their political convictions team up to fight you, despite all the infighting and disagreements. Well, not you personally, but the "you" as in someone who is for political correctness and/or identity politics and are shoving that onto others. Well, trying, anyway.
> 
> The AltFurry "movement" in and of itself is an apolitical one. It doesn't have any specific political beliefs. Well, apart from being against political correctness and identity politics, I guess, though those are more goals rather than political statements.
> 
> Alt-Furry does not translate to Alt-Right.



Please. You use criticism of political correctness as shield for you hate speech, which your server is rife with. Legofreak in particular has raised this to artform. He regularly make comment which any reasonable person would call hate speech and racist, yet no one seems to correct and or criticize him. Nor has he been kicked from the server. Clearly you tolerate that kind of behavior. 

Before you start working on others, work on yourselves.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I meant to split up my last comment but I’m still at work and time is a luxury I cannot afford rn


Hehe. No worries, love. No need to rush things. 

Quite frankly, I'd prefer to make a specific thread about this topic, as it's gone off-topic already as it is.


----------



## Infrarednexus (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Please. You use criticism of political correctness as shield for you hate speech, which your server is rife with. Legofreak in particular has raised this to artform. He regularly make comment which any reasonable person would call hate speech and racist, yet no one seems to correct and or criticize him. Nor has he been kicked from the server. Clearly you tolerate that kind of behavior.
> 
> Before you start working on others, work on yourselves.


Hate speech? At what point did Yakamaru ever use hate speech? When did he ever say anything that promoted violence against another race or religion? When did he ever defend Nazis or Nazi ideologies such as white supremacy or anti Semitism. These are all serious claims you have been making, and given you post a lot of links, I would like some proof of your accusations towards Yakamaru.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Foxler's WikiFur
> 
> Foxler has also been criticized for tagging a Fur Affinity submission of his character's reference sheet as "Nazi" and "Furzi" and referring to himself as such,[2][10] performing a Nazi salute in fursuit for a photograph,[10] using a modified version of the Nazi Imperial War Flag with the swastika replaced with a paw and the Iron Cross replaced with a fox head design,[11] paying money to join a Neo-Nazi group,[12] stating that he hates Black people and would rally for the Ku Klux Klan,[11] saying "I stand with Hitler",[11] and referring to himself as "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom",[13][14][15] in addition to associating himself with the "alt right", a term popularized by white supremacist Richard B. Spencer.[16]
> 
> ...


I am fully aware of all of those things. You also missed the fact that he's told people Foxler means fox Hitler before. Although this happened on a forum where people were taking the piss out of him repeatedly for being a furry and in his own words just gave up and decided to play along with them. I believe this speaks to him giving the salute in fursuit (an inherently hilarious thing to do if you don't take it seriously or as an indication that a half Thai man is a white supremicist) and certainly him saying "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom". As it happens i've read the thread where he said that and it was clear from his responses before and after that he wasn't being serious itt at all. His conduct in regards to that amounts to half assed trolling that backfired in my eyes. Him trying to get into that white supremacist forum. I believe he was just seeing if he could, and they mocked and banned him as soon as they found out he was a furry. I believe the statement where he said he hated black people was an attempt to ingratiate himself within that white supremicist group, as they vetted members for obvious reasons. I also believe he was with his current partner, the black dude, when he said that. Although i'm not entirely sure of that. 

Basically everything i've seen of Foxler points to him being a bit dim and aping nazi stuff for laughs. Nowhere has he said anything truly anti semetic or hate filled (easily explainable i hate black people thing that's countered by his own actions nonwithstanding), on raiders platforms or otherwise. If he had it would've been leaked without question. After seeing more than is necessary of Foxler through various interviews and such i'm convinced the nazi similarities were just a joke that got out of hand, what with people talking about wanting to assault him or light his suit on fire during a con and such.

But if you don't take my word for it, here's an interview with the man himself:






As it happens the man who interviewed him, and was highly critical of his actions, stated in a later video that he doesn't believe that Foxler has genuine nazi sympathies, just that he's a little odd.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> Hate speech? At what point did Yakamaru ever use hate speech? When did he ever say anything that promoted violence against another race or religion? When did he ever defend Nazis or Nazi ideologies such as white supremacy or anti Semitism. These are all serious claims you have been making, and given you post a lot of links, I would like some proof of your accusations towards Yakamaru.


I was making general observations about AltFurry, not Yakumaru, though he is a member. Nice dodge, though.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I am fully aware of all of those things. You also missed the fact that he's told people Foxler means fox Hitler before. Although this happened on a forum where people were taking the piss out of him repeatedly for being a furry and in his own words just gave up and decided to play along with them. I believe this speaks to him giving the salute in fursuit (an inherently hilarious thing to do if you don't take it seriously or as an indication that a half Thai man is a white supremicist) and certainly him saying "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom". As it happens i've read the thread where he said that and it was clear from his responses before and after that he wasn't being serious itt at all. His conduct in regards to that amounts to half assed trolling that backfired in my eyes. Him trying to get into that white supremacist forum. I believe he was just seeing if he could, and they mocked and banned him as soon as they found out he was a furry. I believe the statement where he said he hated black people was an attempt to ingratiate himself within that white supremicist group, as they vetted members for obvious reasons. I also believe he was with his current partner, the black dude, when he said that. Although i'm not entirely sure of that.
> 
> Basically everything i've seen of Foxler points to him being a bit dim and aping nazi stuff for laughs. Nowhere has he said anything truly anti semetic or hate filled (easily explainable i hate black people thing that's countered by his own actions nonwithstanding), on raiders platforms or otherwise. If he had it would've been leaked without question. After seeing more than is necessary of Foxler through various interviews and such i'm convinced the nazi similarities were just a joke that got out of hand, what with people talking about wanting to assault him or light his suit on fire during a con and such.
> 
> ...


Maybe he should lose the fucking armband then.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I am fully aware of all of those things. You also missed the fact that he's told people Foxler means fox Hitler before. Although this happened on a forum where people were taking the piss out of him repeatedly for being a furry and in his own words just gave up and decided to play along with them. I believe this speaks to him giving the salute in fursuit (an inherently hilarious thing to do if you don't take it seriously or as an indication that a half Thai man is a white supremicist) and certainly him saying "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom". As it happens i've read the thread where he said that and it was clear from his responses before and after that he wasn't being serious itt at all. His conduct in regards to that amounts to half assed trolling that backfired in my eyes. Him trying to get into that white supremacist forum. I believe he was just seeing if he could, and they mocked and banned him as soon as they found out he was a furry. I believe the statement where he said he hated black people was an attempt to ingratiate himself within that white supremicist group, as they vetted members for obvious reasons. I also believe he was with his current partner, the black dude, when he said that. Although i'm not entirely sure of that.
> 
> Basically everything i've seen of Foxler points to him being a bit dim and aping nazi stuff for laughs. Nowhere has he said anything truly anti semetic or hate filled (easily explainable i hate black people thing that's countered by his own actions nonwithstanding), on raiders platforms or otherwise. If he had it would've been leaked without question. After seeing more than is necessary of Foxler through various interviews and such i'm convinced the nazi similarities were just a joke that got out of hand, what with people talking about wanting to assault him or light his suit on fire during a con and such.
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing out I missed the fact that he's told people Foxler means fox Hitler before.

I prefer to look at what one does, not what they say. Of course when being a Nazi became too edgy for him, he made up some excuses. It's easier to try and justify behavior after the fact. If you are naive enough to buy that, I have a bridge I want to sell you along with some investment opportunities from a Nigerian prince.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Please. You use criticism of political correctness as shield for you hate speech, which your server is rife with. Legofreak in particular has raised this to artform. He regularly make comment which any reasonable person would call hate speech and racist, yet no one seems to correct and or criticize him. Nor has he been kicked from the server. Clearly you tolerate that kind of behavior.
> 
> Before you start working on others, work on yourselves.


Oh, as for Lego. He does get criticized and even ridiculed for his beliefs, but those screenshots aren't sensationalist enough so they're not printed. The Legofreak room was created because Lego couldn't stop getting into arguments with other members in the general channel. Iirc even Len described it as a channel to quarantine the autism. You've had members with higher ranks within the server outright calling him idiotic for the things he posts, other members, myself included, repeatedly posting memes and Chris Rock routines (you can guess which one) in response to him in that channel and i've even joked that he just needs to go out and get laid by an Ethiopian Jew and calm down.

And yes, Lego is allowed to state his beliefs, just as others are allowed to mock him for it. The AltFurry server is against censorship on principle, no matter what someone believes they're allowed to voice that opinion. Whether left or right it doesn't matter, they're allowed to speak.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Thank you for pointing out I missed the fact that he's told people Foxler means fox Hitler before.
> 
> I prefer to look at what one does, not what they say. Of course when being a Nazi became too edgy for him, he made up some excuses. It's easier to try and justify behavior after the fact. If you are naive enough to buy that, I have a bridge I want to sell you along with some investment opportunities from a Nigerian prince.


Yes, and what has he done? Made shallow gestures and edgy posts that are rendered meaningless by virtue of the person he loves alone?


WithMyBearHands said:


> Maybe he should lose the fucking armband then.


Not the first person to say this, won't be the last. He's not going to, because he associates it with furries and his sona as opposed to the nazis.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> And yes, Lego is allowed to state his beliefs, just as others are allowed to mock him for it. The AltFurry server is against censorship on principle, no matter what someone believes they're allowed to voice that opinion. Whether left or right it doesn't matter, they're allowed to speak


Seems like a cover for allowing racism to me.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Seems like a cover for allowing racism to me.


There's no cover, it allows racism.

Tolerance does not equal support.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Yes, and what has he done? Made shallow gestures and edgy posts that are rendered meaningless by virtue of the person he loves alone?


All things I quoted in the WikiFur entry? Also, he isn't the first bigot to make a hypocritical exception for his fuckbuddy.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> There's no cover, it allows racism.
> 
> Tolerance does not equal support.


By tolerating it, you are supporting it.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

If it looks like a Nazi (armband) and it talks like a Nazi (him saying “hurrrrr ya Foxler means Fox Hitler”), well I got some bad news for ya


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> By tolerating it, you are supporting it.


There’s really no such thing as “tolerating intolerance”.  Nazis and people who think like them believe that some people are sub human and that is not okay.  It is NEVER okay.  And it is never okay to coddle them over it.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Maybe he should lose the fucking armband then.


It's a form of mockery, really. Your ideology, that which once led to the death of tens of millions, have been reduced to some randomass dude wearing a mascot costume. And it doesn't even come with the infamous swastika, either. It's a paw, to further mock Nazism. IMO, there is no better form of mockery.



WithMyBearHands said:


> There’s really no such thing as “tolerating intolerance”.  Nazis and people who think like them believe that some people are sub human and that is not okay.  It is NEVER okay.  And it is never okay to coddle them over it.


Well, what do you suggest doing with these alleged Nazis?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> It's a form of mockery, really. Your ideology, that which once led to the death of tens of millions, have been reduced to some randomass dude wearing a mascot costume. And it doesn't even come with the infamous swastika, either. It's a paw, to further mock Nazism. IMO, there is no better form of mockery.
> 
> 
> Well, what do you suggest doing with these alleged Nazis?


Cutting them off from their internet safe spaces is a start.  Don’t give them platforms.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Also, sorry, but when I see a red armband with a white circle and a black figure in the middle, my first thought usually isn’t “oh he’s mocking Nazis” it’s usually “oh shit he’s a Nazi.  Aaaaand I’m Polish.”  But I will give you props, that’s one way to look at it.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> All things I quoted in the WikiFur entry? Also, he isn't the first bigot to make a hypocritical exception for his fuckbuddy.





WithMyBearHands said:


> If it looks like a Nazi (armband) and it talks like a Nazi (him saying “hurrrrr ya Foxler means Fox Hitler”), well I got some bad news for ya


I suggest you both watch the interview i posted, unless you're only interested in holding onto the opinions you've already voiced. Foxler is dim, i don't mean that as an insult to the man but from what i've seen of him it's true, and beyond saying/doing shallow things to trigger a reaction he's not said anything that suggests he holds white supremacist views. Can you find anything he's said amongst his friends/contemporaries in a space he trusts where he says something genuinely hate filled/anti semetic?


LogicNuke said:


> By tolerating it, you are supporting it.


Not true, for instance i'm currently tolerating your beliefs but i don't support your conclusions in the slightest.

But i'm aware there's a whole other argument around the concept of tolerance here so if you want to expand on it i'd be happy to listen.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> It's a form of mockery, really. Your ideology, that which once led to the death of tens of millions, have been reduced to some randomass dude wearing a mascot costume. And it doesn't even come with the infamous swastika, either. It's a paw, to further mock Nazism. IMO, there is no better form of mockery.



It's because Foxler is too chickenshit to admit he is a Nazi.



Yakamaru said:


> Well, what do you suggest doing with these alleged Nazis?


How about booting the ones in your group out? Or failing that, booting them off platforms like Discord. Oh. I forgot. Discord already booted Altfurry off their servers. I wonder why they did that...


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> It's because Foxler is too chickenshit to admit he is a Nazi.
> 
> 
> How about booting the ones in your group out? Or failing that, booting them off platforms like Discord. Oh. I forgot. Discord already booted Altfurry off their servers. I wonder why they did that...


Then how do you know he is really a Nazi?

As for booting AltFurry from Discord, it was a response to the incident involving the Atomwaffen Division, a neo nazi group that had been implicated in several murders. Shortly after that news his several "fer right" servers were taken down, including AltFurry and iirc some random political server that didn't espouse far right leanings.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Not true, for instance i'm currently tolerating your beliefs but i don't support your conclusions in the slightest.
> 
> But i'm aware there's a whole other argument around the concept of tolerance here so if you want to expand on it i'd be happy to listen.


I'm not in AltFurry, so that tolerance is meaningless, but okay. Furthermore, your arguments about free speech mirror those made by other hate groups that rebranded themselves as "free speech groups".


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Then how do you know he is really a Nazi?
> 
> As for booting AltFurry from Discord, it was a response to the incident involving the Atomwaffen Division, a neo nazi group that had been implicated in several murders. Shortly after that news his several "fer right" servers were taken down, including AltFurry and iirc some random political server that didn't espouse far right leanings.


Good, they can fuck off to their own disgusting hovels


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Then how do you know he is really a Nazi?
> 
> As for booting AltFurry from Discord, it was a response to the incident involving the Atomwaffen Division, a neo nazi group that had been implicated in several murders. Shortly after that news his several "fer right" servers were taken down, including AltFurry and iirc some random political server that didn't espouse far right leanings.


Discord specifically said they were removing far right hate groups from their servers. Altfurry was one of them.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Cutting them off from their internet safe spaces is a start.  Don’t give them platforms.


And when they are off the internet, then what?


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I'm not in AltFurry, so that tolerance is meaningless, but okay. Furthermore, your arguments about free speech mirror those made by other hate groups that rebranded themselves as "free speech groups".


Tolerance is meaningless?

Also, are you about to suggest that i secretly support hate groups because i publically support the concept of free speech?
Hate speech is free speech after all, whether it's coming from a white supremacist or someone like Gazi Kodzo. Everyone is welcome to be a narrow minded idiot, or should be free to be at least.


WithMyBearHands said:


> Good, they can fuck off to their own disgusting hovels


They have, getting booted by discord was a minor inconvenience that in the end accomplished nothing.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

@WithMyBearHands I can't help but notice Yakamaru brought his friend in to do all the argumentative heavy lifting.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Discord specifically said they were removing far right hate groups from their servers. Altfurry was one of them.


What the Discord staff said doesn't necessarily align with the truth, but that statement props up your bias so i can understand why you mentioned it.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> @WithMyBearHands I can't help but notice Yakamaru brought his friend in to do all the argumentative heavy lifting.


He's not my friend, he's my lover. I make him call me Mein Fuhrer when we make sweet, pure blooded Aryan love.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> And when they are off the internet, then what?


A throwaway line. Really?


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> What the Discord staff said doesn't necessarily align with the truth, but that statement props up your bias so i can understand why you mentioned it.


Well what do you expect when a groups ideologies consist of racial superiority and being genocide apologists?


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> What the Discord staff said doesn't necessarily align with the truth, but that statement props up your bias so i can understand why you mentioned it.


So a corporation, staffed with professional legal counsels, would label certain groups as hate groups without sufficient evidence and risk being sued by those parties not just for the denial of service but defamation as well? No. I trust their assessment over your assertion.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> He's not my friend, he's my lover. I make him call me Mein Fuhrer when we make sweet, pure blooded Aryan love.


Only every 2nd Friday. :3

...But if you forget to bring the Oreos... No love for you. I will go to Jimmy instead. :V


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Well what do you expect when a groups ideologies consist of racial superiority and being genocide apologists?


I am in this group. I am telling you, as i and many others that actually delve into these groups have told people like you, that this group does not espouse racial superiority or genocide apologetics/denial. It is not a core ideology of the group, the only ideology of the group is to place free speech over censorship.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> What the Discord staff said doesn't necessarily align with the truth, but that statement props up your bias so i can understand why you mentioned it.


A lot of parties with evidence are biased against you apparently.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I am in this group. I am telling you, as i and many others that actually delve into these groups have told people like you, that this group does not espouse racial superiority or genocide apologetics/denial. It is not a core ideology of the group, the only ideology of the group is to place free speech over censorship.


Legofreak does.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> So a corporation, staffed with professional legal counsels, would label certain groups as hate groups without sufficient evidence and risk being sued by those parties not just for the denial of service but defamation as well? No. I trust their assessment over your assertion.


Oh i'm sure they saw things that would lead them to that conclusion, Legofreak as a prime example, but that doesn't mean they were correct. And i'd have to read Discord's ToS to counter the denial of service claims.


Yakamaru said:


> Only every 2nd Friday. :3
> 
> ...But if you forget to bring the Oreos... No love for you. I will go to Jimmy instead. :V


What is it with you and the goddamn Oreos?

*sighs*

Well, at least they're white on the inside.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> A lot of parties with evidence are biased against you apparently.


They have evidence of people being hateful, and assume that the entire group is because of that. These people are morons that can't understand the difference between an individual opinion and a group mentality.


LogicNuke said:


> Legofreak does.


I'm the same rank as Legofreak on the server, so by any metric of logic my statements in regards to the server should carry as much weight as his.

Also, Legofreak believing what he does is no counter to my statement about the group at all. All you've done is go "well that dude's a white supremacist". Well yes, he is. Congratulations.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Oh i'm sure they saw things that would lead them to that conclusion, Legofreak as a prime example, but that doesn't mean they were correct. And i'd have to read Discord's ToS to counter the denial of service claims.


I'm sure they saw things like your friends' own racist utterings, of which Legofreak was a prime example.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 19, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> Well what do you expect when a groups ideologies consist of racial superiority and being genocide apologists?


Pretty sure this was stated like twice or thrice earlier in the thread, love. AltFurry literally have no core ideology. 

The only thing that is being put first is that of free speech. Censorship is not how you go about doing things. It's one of the reasons the Nazis back in the 1920's and 1930's came into power in the first place. Or did what you said about learning from the past not translate to also learning from the means used? 

*sigh* Godwin's law. I fucking hate you. Wasn't even invoked before the 2nd page..


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I am in this group. I am telling you, as i and many others that actually delve into these groups have told people like you, that this group does not espouse racial superiority or genocide apologetics/denial. It is not a core ideology of the group, the only ideology of the group is to place free speech over censorship.


Yes, but... Nazis???  Come on mang, they should be the biggest exception


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> They have evidence of people being hateful, and assume that the entire group is because of that. These people are morons that can't understand the difference between an individual opinion and a group mentality.


Assuming I believed this for a moment, which I most certainly do not, this is thorny problem with tolerating racist speech in a group. Parties assume your group is racist. How curious.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> AltFurry literally have no core ideology.


It does have a leader. Casey Hoerth aka Len Gilbert aka Ze Furred Reich. Who is a Nazi sympathizer, at minimum.

Not a good look for a group claiming not be Nazis.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> I'm sure they saw things like your friends' own racist utterings, of which Legofreak was a prime example.


No doubt, and the raft of reports that were no doubt thrown the server's way by people that don't really know what the server's about contributed too. Point is, they were wrong to shut the server down, and only did so because it was listed as far right by imbeciles and deleted amongst a wide spread purge. They went the zero tolerance route and decided to shut things down rather than exploring things and thinking critically. The business of the team no doubt played a part in this, maybe political affiliation too, of that i can't possibly say.

Point is, there's a big difference between nazis and "nazis". Understand?


WithMyBearHands said:


> Yes, but... Nazis???  Come on mang, they should be the biggest exception


Tell me why it's ok to persecute this particular minority.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Tell me why it's ok to persecute this particular minority.


Because they persecuted minorities?


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Assuming I believed this for a moment, which I most certainly do not, this is thorny problem with tolerating racist speech in a group. Parties assume your group is racist. How curious.


Yes, and those assumptions can often shut down a person's ability to think critically. How disappointing.


LogicNuke said:


> It does have a leader. Casey Hoerth aka Len Gilbert aka Ze Furred Reich. Who is a Nazi sympathizer, at minimum.
> 
> Not a good look for a group claiming not be Nazis.


Yes, Casey wrote a book set in an alternate ww2 there the protagonist was a German soldier, how horrifying.

But please, point me to his nazi sympathies. For the record i'm not saying he doesn't have them, just that i've never really seen them.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Because they persecuted minorities?


So two wrongs make a right?


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> So two wrongs make a right?


Sometimes you have to go to war to end a war.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Point is, there's a big difference between nazis and "nazis". Understand?
> 
> Tell me why it's ok to persecute this particular minority.


-I do agree that calling people Nazis all over the place definitely waters down actual and legitimate allegations, but I will not hesitate to call it when I see it.

-Because it’s a disgusting and inhumane ideology and should not be tolerated anywhere.  Six million Jews on  top of millions of other minority groups and millions of Russians.  Tell me why that’s okay to support.


----------



## Kyr (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Sometimes you have to go to war to end a war.


And here i was thinking the Nazis were already defeated and demonized.


WithMyBearHands said:


> -I do agree that calling people Nazis all over the place definitely waters down actual and legitimate allegations, but I will not hesitate to call it when I see it.
> 
> -Because it’s a disgusting and inhumane ideology and should not be tolerated anywhere.  Six million Jews on  top of millions of other minority groups and millions of Russians.  Tell me why that’s okay to support.


I don't like the Nazi ideology, not least because i'd be in a concentration camp alongside the Jews if the classical Nazis rose to power again. I don't support legitimate Nazis because i find the crux of that way of thinking to be naive, unnecessary, and little more than a way to increase suffering in the world. Nazis will exist though, you can't kill an ideology. At least not in less that 100 years after it had widespread acceptance. Nazism/Fascism though, is dead. It will never regain widespread popularity as people understand the atrocities it caused due to completely ridiculous notions of superiority. It will never gain enough power to be a threat, at least in our lifetimes, and it will not be stamped out either.

The issue is, fundamentally, how do we treat those we find to be despicable? Regardless of what causes them to be despicable as a group in our eyes. Do we repeat the mistakes of the past, that caused so much needless death and destruction, and justify our violent intolerance because it's directed towards an intolerant ideology? Or do we accept that they exist, as fully functioning human beings, not just as the conduit of a hateful ideology, and allow them to live freely? What mentality would you rather foster in our culture. I guarantee that if you chose increased intolerance, your political enemies would do the same. This is why the alt right has gained traction in the modern world. It's the same fundamental way of thinking, just directed at a different group.

As for not tolerating an ideology that caused the deaths of over 6 million people, do you tolerate an ideology that's caused the deaths of around 100 million over the last century? I'm asking to ascertain the heart of your principles here. Nazism and Communism both have vast death tolls based on the notion of dehumanizing an other, and as far as i'm concerned you can't just tolerate one. It's all or nothing.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> The issue is, fundamentally, how do we treat those we find to be despicable? Regardless of what causes them to be despicable as a group in our eyes. Do we repeat the mistakes of the past, that caused so much needless death and destruction, and justify our violent intolerance because it's directed to wards an intolerant ideology? Or do we accept that they exist, as fully functioning human beings, not just as the conduit of a hateful ideology, and allow them to live freely? What mentality would you rather foster in our culture. I guarantee that if you chose increased intolerance, your political enemies would do the same. This is why the alt right has gained traction in the modern world.


The Alt-Right grew because we were _too _tolerant of them. We ignored the threat they posed. We ignored on our television and radio sets when certain ultraconservative political commentators used dog whistles and code words to garner support for racist causes and demonized those actually trying to fight it. We ignored it on sites like /pol/ on 4chan where they found each other and coalesced in propaganda meme machine. We ignored it around our dinner tables when we did not stand up to racist family members held outdated views that had no place in America. We ignored in the newspaper when those whose histories were littered with racist deeds went unchallenged. We ignored it in our chats when friends used racist slurs and supported groups and said nothing because it would be awkward.

Now we are in an unprecedented and chaotic political situation in which the president needs to check with the Alt-Right before he makes a decision and pretends to not know who the leader of the Ku Klux Klan is or what white supremacy is. 

The problem is not that we pushed back too hard. We did not push back at all.

And we are paying the price now.


----------



## LogicNuke (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> As for not tolerating an ideology that caused the deaths of over 6 million people, do you tolerate an ideology that's caused the deaths of around 100 million over the last century? I'm asking to ascertain the heart of your principles here. Nazism and Communism both have vast death tolls based on the notion of dehumanizing an other, and as far as i'm concerned you can't just tolerate one. It's all or nothing.


We don't tolerate Communism either. Nice canard.


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 19, 2018)

Kyr said:


> And here i was thinking the Nazis were already defeated and demonized.
> 
> I don't like the Nazi ideology, not least because i'd be in a concentration camp alongside the Jews if the classical Nazis rose to power again. I don't support legitimate Nazis because i find the crux of that way of thinking to be naive, unnecessary, and little more than a way to increase suffering in the world. Nazis will exist though, you can't kill an ideology. At least not in less that 100 years after it had widespread acceptance. Nazism/Fascism though, is dead. It will never regain widespread popularity as people understand the atrocities it caused due to completely ridiculous notions of superiority. It will never gain enough power to be a threat, at least in our lifetimes, and it will not be stamped out either.
> 
> ...



We do not have to be tolerant of either camp, which we're both fundamentally based on authoritarianism. However, it's very important to note that ALT RIGHT is still based on false notions of superiority, racism, and authoritarianism. Alt right can and must be an ideology that is constantly squashed by many people exercising their freedom of speech against it.


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 19, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> The Alt-Right grew because we were _too _tolerant of them. We ignored the threat they posed. We ignored on our television and radio sets when certain ultraconservative political commentators used dog whistles and code words to garner support for racist causes and demonized those actually trying to fight it. We ignored it on sites like /pol/ on 4chan where they found each other and coalesced in propaganda meme machine. We ignored it around our dinner tables when we did not stand up to racist family members held outdated views that had no place in America. We ignored in the newspaper when those whose histories were littered with racist deeds went unchallenged. We ignored it in our chats when friends used racist slurs and supported groups and said nothing because it would be awkward.
> 
> Now we are in an unprecedented and chaotic political situation in which the president needs to check with the Alt-Right before he makes a decision and pretends to not know who the leader of the Ku Klux Klan is or what white supremacy is.
> 
> ...


Exactly.  I don’t like communism or the hardcore far left either, but we’ve successfully fucking crucified those groups.  It’s especially frustrating because people will brutally attack what they deem to be SJWs, but being a Hitler loving fuckwit is suddenly socially acceptable?


----------



## lupi900 (Apr 20, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I am in this group. I am telling you, as i and many others that actually delve into these groups have told people like you, that this group does not espouse racial superiority or genocide apologetics/denial. It is not a core ideology of the group, the only ideology of the group is to place free speech over censorship.



There no free speech dude your on a private website, You sound like the redditors that cried that hate subs were removed. Also are really saying that foxler is okay because he bi-racial/has a black boyfriend?, that like saying chris chan should get free pass on nasty homophic/racist shit he said because he autstic.

Like dude come one, your a mod of 2 furry discord i know. Thanks giving me reason to leave and find more.


----------



## Yakamaru (Apr 20, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Like dude come one, your a mod of 2 furry discord i know. Thanks giving me reason to leave and find more.


Cute.

Well, good luck with whatever, mate.


----------



## GreenZone (Apr 20, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> The Alt-Right grew because we were _too _tolerant of them. We ignored the threat they posed. We ignored on our television and radio sets when certain ultraconservative political commentators used dog whistles and code words to garner support for racist causes and demonized those actually trying to fight it. We ignored it on sites like /pol/ on 4chan where they found each other and coalesced in propaganda meme machine. We ignored it around our dinner tables when we did not stand up to racist family members held outdated views that had no place in America. We ignored in the newspaper when those whose histories were littered with racist deeds went unchallenged. We ignored it in our chats when friends used racist slurs and supported groups and said nothing because it would be awkward.
> 
> Now we are in an unprecedented and chaotic political situation in which the president needs to check with the Alt-Right before he makes a decision and pretends to not know who the leader of the Ku Klux Klan is or what white supremacy is.
> 
> ...







WithMyBearHands said:


> Exactly.  I don’t like communism or the hardcore far left either, but we’ve successfully fucking crucified those groups.  It’s especially frustrating because people will brutally attack what they deem to be SJWs, but being a Hitler loving fuckwit is suddenly socially acceptable?




ok calm down trump is not a fascist and you both know it the far left is not dead yet its still doing stupid shit in America and we're still fighting it in Australia there's still the fucked up mess of Affirmative action brought in mid job crisis and the Army has just been banned from being "warlike" and displaying skulls Spartans punisher etc etc  and the UK they jail people for making anti PC jokes or criticising Feminism

the rise of the alt right is not one of too much "tolerance" its not begun yet you do not have the same refugee crisis Europe or Australia has its not one born from racism but from desperation in Germany they are losing their nation and in Australia we reached a point recently where a minority committed such a large number of crimes vigilantes started beating up any group from this minority they saw but that's not racism that's fighting back when the government will not take action out of fear of appearing racist

this is not the time to fight each other we need to realise the root causes of these issues and deal with them before the right has a chance to voice an opinion ive seen this myself ive seen the Neo Nazis gather in numbers because the government or left wing media/politicians will not acknowledge their concerns some of their concerns are very real ones

when you actively oppress and fight the working class this is what results in Communism or Nazism but we can find a middle ground you do not have to be 100% racist or 100% leftist people are too afraid to say "you know what we can't help our own people right now i'm sorry we want to help but our own people are committing suicide from lack of jobs or starving from bad crop yields"

you do not have to help an impoverished people at the cost of lowering your own countries way of life or stability but you do not have to just reject everyone either

in my opinion it would be better to focus on ones own country first then deal with the refugees and economic migrants Germany realised this all too late they said "why are these people coming here? oh boko haram? ok lets send troops there to stabilise the nation"  that is the first time i have seen any allied nation actively do something at bettering their country as well as the refugees nothing to do with trade pacts or alliances but just to fix things


back home get free education get more people at university which creates a better educated work force which creates a more experienced work force who latter go on to start their own business who create more jobs and with these small business the educated national born wont want them but the low skilled migrant workers will until they themselves can get better educations and integrate into society better as it brings them out of their communities and then go and get better jobs

fuck diversity quotas fuck closing the gates do that shit instead

personally i don't care about real multiculturalism ive seen it in my workplace people from all nations working in harmony no conflict but its when you come in and go "no you can't do this because these people are offended" or go "we're lowering your pay and upping this persons pay cause of shit 100 years ago" that cause resentment and hatred

it can work ive seen Christians jews and Muslims preying together having constructive discussions about each others religions i have seen north and south Vietnamese working together peacefully i have seen black and white helping eachother out

this whole identity politics bullshit is just so divisive let people get through the world on their own merit they do not need a helping hand unless they're fucking homeless or in real danger for people to just go "oh you poor thing you're gay 18 year old here's a CEO job Mr Rothschild" is so fucking stupid

also the Muslims jews and Christians wasn't a metaphor on good friday they all preyed together fasted together had open discussions about their faiths as well as our scientific beliefs and no one fought  it was fucking glorious in that moment i saw what Humanity could be


----------



## BahgDaddy (Apr 20, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> ok calm down trump is not a fascist and you both know it the far left is not dead yet its still doing stupid shit in America and we're still fighting it in Australia there's still the fucked up mess of Affirmative action brought in mid job crisis and the Army has just been banned from being "warlike" and displaying skulls Spartans punisher etc etc  and the UK they jail people for making anti PC jokes or criticising Feminism
> 
> the rise of the alt right is not one of too much "tolerance" its not begun yet you do not have the same refugee crisis Europe or Australia has its not one born from racism but from desperation in Germany they are losing their nation and in Australia we reached a point recently where a minority committed such a large number of crimes vigilantes started beating up any group from this minority they saw but that's not racism that's fighting back when the government will not take action out of fear of appearing racist
> 
> ...



You know, once again, it would really help people wade through your appalling ignorance if they could actually read where a sentence ended and one began. Basically you're mad at everything like, I guess, diversity as other cultures and keeping militaries in check? Good grief...


----------



## WithMyBearHands (Apr 20, 2018)

GreenZone said:


> ok calm down trump is not a fascist and you both know it the far left is not dead yet its still doing stupid shit in America and we're still fighting it in Australia there's still the fucked up mess of Affirmative action brought in mid job crisis and the Army has just been banned from being "warlike" and displaying skulls Spartans punisher etc etc  and the UK they jail people for making anti PC jokes or criticising Feminism
> 
> the rise of the alt right is not one of too much "tolerance" its not begun yet you do not have the same refugee crisis Europe or Australia has its not one born from racism but from desperation in Germany they are losing their nation and in Australia we reached a point recently where a minority committed such a large number of crimes vigilantes started beating up any group from this minority they saw but that's not racism that's fighting back when the government will not take action out of fear of appearing racist
> 
> ...


I have little problem with centrist politics, legitimately not being able to care for refugees or immigrants is a vastly different issue from saying “we don’t want brown people here” ya dig


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## Infrarednexus (Apr 20, 2018)

WithMyBearHands said:


> I have little problem with centrist politics, legitimately not being able to care for refugees or immigrants is a vastly different issue from saying “we don’t want brown people here” ya dig


I'm all for helping people too, especially those who have had the worst of luck. But he is not talking about the friendly children and families that come as immigrants, he is talking about the millions and millions of unchecked men from the middle east who have increased rape and crime rates to shocking numbers in European countries, with no regards to assimilation into a new culture or respecting the law. I don't hate immigrants and I don't judge where you come from, but the reality is that Europe has a serious cultural, social, and economical issue since they decided to let millions of people in every year in a noble effort to try and help them but without any regulation or background checking. Good intentions with bad results.

Believe me it has nothing to do with skin color.


----------



## Judge Spear (Apr 20, 2018)

This just goes to show how hands off I am in this fandom because I did not know this dogpatch press bucko was relevant. I just remember he came to another forum I know of and started cutting up like he was superior to the rules. Saying some odious crap about him being there was "good for us" or some smug trite horseshit like that. 

Then he got banned. lmao


----------



## Troj (Apr 20, 2018)

Dogpatch Press is fun to read and covers things of interest to me. 

Patch strikes me as a fundamentally well-intentioned person with his own biases, obsessions, and strongly-held beliefs. I respect that he wants the fandom to be a safe, fun place for people to express themselves, be creative, and have fun in peace. I also respect how he has, in the past, been willing to acknowledge and spotlight respectful criticism and dissenting views on his blog.

On some matters, we agree, and on others, we disagree. 

In the areas where I think Patch has a strong bias, particular fixation, or a pronounced blindspot, I take his opinion with a grain of salt, and/or I make a point to compare and balance his take with others.


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## Mewmento (Apr 20, 2018)

DogPatch Press is the equivalent to a teenager with angst scribbling in _*notepad.exe*_


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## Kyr (Apr 20, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> There no free speech dude your on a private website, You sound like the redditors that cried that hate subs were removed. Also are really saying that foxler is okay because he bi-racial/has a black boyfriend?, that like saying chris chan should get free pass on nasty homophic/racist shit he said because he autstic.
> 
> Like dude come one, your a mod of 2 furry discord i know. Thanks giving me reason to leave and find more.


I realize that the owners of private sites are free to do as they wish. I wasn't talking about websites in general, i was talking about the principles of AltFurry. The group is the target of a rather large smear campaign, and while my words may fall on deaf ears i'd like to try and correct some ignorance where i can.

As for Foxler being bi-racial and having a black boyfriend, i'm saying those facts are a very good reason to call into question him being a white supremacist. Everything i've seen of Foxler, and of the Furry Raiders, has told me they hold no sincere racist views as a group. Now Foxler's done a lot of stupid shit, i understand that. But honestly, from the hours of interviews i've watched involving him, research into the context of the comments people commonly cite and months spent on various Raiders servers i can't say that there's any genuine racial hatred coming from him or his group. He's been idiotic, but the Nazi shit he flirts with isn't based on a reverence for Nazi ideals as far as i've been able to ascertain.

As for the Discord servers i admin, if you want to leave them because i value free speech over censorship well...that seems like an odd reason to go but you're welcome to. Bear in mind though, i'm one person on servers with numbers in the hundreds at best, and i'm not generally active in chats outside of FT. If you want to cut yourself off from entire groups because of one person that mostly sets up servers and tinkers with back end stuff then...that seems really silly tbh. But hey, no hard feelings, best of luck to you.

Will respond to Bahg, Logic and BearHands later. Have a few things to take care of atm but i'll get to you when i'm free.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 20, 2018)

This thread: "this guy reputable no he not no u blah blah blarg lol."


----------



## lupi900 (Apr 20, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> This thread: "this guy reputable no he not no u blah blah blarg lol."



It's funny how many are upset over a fucking furry blog. For very petty reason's.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 20, 2018)

Kyr said:


> I realize that the owners of private sites are free to do as they wish. I wasn't talking about websites in general, i was talking about the principles of AltFurry. The group is the target of a rather large smear campaign, and while my words may fall on deaf ears i'd like to try and correct some ignorance where i can.
> 
> As for Foxler being bi-racial and having a black boyfriend, i'm saying those facts are a very good reason to call into question him being a white supremacist. Everything i've seen of Foxler, and of the Furry Raiders, has told me they hold no sincere racist views as a group. Now Foxler's done a lot of stupid shit, i understand that. But honestly, from the hours of interviews i've watched involving him, research into the context of the comments people commonly cite and months spent on various Raiders servers i can't say that there's any genuine racial hatred coming from him or his group. He's been idiotic, but the Nazi shit he flirts with isn't based on a reverence for Nazi ideals as far as i've been able to ascertain.
> 
> ...


Due to the epic length of this thread saga, I'm going to repost this helpful information on Foxler Nightfire:

_Foxler is a founder and CEO of the Furry Raiders,[5][6] a social group headquartered in Colorado that began on Second Life.[5] The group's logo, a black paw print in a white circle on a solid-color background that is default red,[7] and often worn in real life by members as an armband or drawn on characters of members, has been criticized as resembling the Nazi brassard.[8][9] This logo was designed by Foxler.[7]

Foxler has also been criticized for tagging a Fur Affinity submission of his character's reference sheet as "Nazi" and "Furzi" and referring to himself as such,[2][10] performing a Nazi salute in fursuit for a photograph,[10] using a modified version of the Nazi Imperial War Flag with the swastika replaced with a paw and the Iron Cross replaced with a fox head design,[11] paying money to join a Neo-Nazi group,[12] stating that he hates Black people and would rally for the Ku Klux Klan,[11] saying "I stand with Hitler",[11] and referring to himself as "Foxler the Hitler of Furry Fandom",[13][14][15] in addition to associating himself with the "alt right", a term popularized by white supremacist Richard B. Spencer.[16] _Though Foxler is of mixed-Thai ancestry, this behavior has been criticized as "aping the forms, fashions, conduct, and politics of the Nazis".[17]

Once again, I will say those are a lot of coincidences for someone who claims not to be down with Hitler. Actions speak louder than words and even Foxler's own words work against him here. Even if he is not Nazi wannabe, he is either an edgelord in the extreme or a dimwit, to paraphrase own your characterization of him being dim. I, and all reasonable people, would not follow out of a burning building, much less an organization. There is even more fun stuff even if he is not Nazi:

_In 2005, Foxler posted a LiveJournal entry admitting to knowingly engaging in cybersex with a 13-year-old girl.[19]

In 2011, Foxler was accused of attempting to convince a 16-year-old girl to run away from her parents, plying her by sending her money and a puppy.[20][21]

Foxler has commented that "dressing up as a cute fox" allows him to "trap" people and get their guard down, "even children". [22]_

_Foxler has been accused of committing bestiality,[23] and has admitted to having sexual contact with a dog as a teenager.[24]

In addition to admitting to wanting to have sex with dogs,[25] he has claimed that his dogs are "sexual beings",[26] and has described French kissing a puppy.[27] He had an account on Beast Forum, since banned.[1] As recently as mid-2016 activity, his F-List profile listed Zoophilia as a "favorite" interest.[28]_

This is the man you defending full-throatily. Classy.

As for your allowance of racism on your servers, it is your First Amendment right to do so, just it is everybody else's First Amendment right to label as, at best, enablers of racism and, at worst purveyors of bigotry.

We live in a beautiful country.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 20, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Due to the epic length of this thread saga, I'm going to repost this helpful information on Foxler Nightfire:
> 
> _Foxler is a founder and CEO of the Furry Raiders,[5][6] a social group headquartered in Colorado that began on Second Life.[5] The group's logo, a black paw print in a white circle on a solid-color background that is default red,[7] and often worn in real life by members as an armband or drawn on characters of members, has been criticized as resembling the Nazi brassard.[8][9] This logo was designed by Foxler.[7]
> 
> ...



His own commentary makes him sound daft. Why is he even relevant?


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## Deleted member 115426 (Apr 20, 2018)

We need a special rating that users can use to like upvote or downvote if a thread is a dumpster fire or not. That way if the dumpster fire rating is so high people know to stay away.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> We need a special rating that users can use to like upvote or downvote if a thread is a dumpster fire or not. That way if the dumpster fire rating is so high people know to stay away.


Well, we have a couple core individuals who tend to start the fire in the first place. :V


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## Deleted member 115426 (Apr 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Well, we have a couple core individuals who tend to start the fire in the first place. :V


Great now you have that song "We didn't start the fire" stuck in my head. Reeeeee


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## Yakamaru (Apr 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> Great now you have that song "We didn't start the fire" stuck in my head. Reeeeee


That's ok, mate. I will reeeeeeee alongside you. xD

Also. Good song, that one. <3


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## Deleted member 115426 (Apr 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> That's ok, mate. I will reeeeeeee alongside you. xD
> 
> Also. Good song, that one. <3


It is. But it's stuck in my heeeeeeead.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 20, 2018)

Ovi the Dragon said:


> We need a special rating that users can use to like upvote or downvote if a thread is a dumpster fire or not. That way if the dumpster fire rating is so high people know to stay away.


Translation: I want a special rating so we downvote certain threads that me and my buddies don't like that expose the shit me and my buddies get up to so people won't look at them.


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## Infrarednexus (Apr 20, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Translation: I want a special rating so we downvote certain threads my and buddies that expose the shit me and my buddies get up to so people won't look at them.


You mind editing that sentence a little better?


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## Yakamaru (Apr 20, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Translation: I want a special rating so we downvote certain threads my and buddies that expose the shit me and my buddies get up to so people won't look at them.


A like for the attempted effort.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> Well, we have a couple core individuals who tend to start the fire in the first place. :V


Weren't _you _banned at one point?

You wanted to discuss if Dogpatch was a legit source. We're talking about a story Dogpatch wrote which actually had decent sourcing. If you disagree, say why. If not, by all means continue chatting nonchalantly with Ovid to distract from what's going on.

Either way, do you.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 20, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> You mind editing that sentence a little better?


Done, son.


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## LogicNuke (Apr 20, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> A like for the attempted effort.


I'm sure you're familiar with the experience.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Translation: I want a special rating so we downvote certain threads that me and my buddies don't like that expose the shit me and my buddies get up to so people won't look at them.



Yeah just what this forum needs a Reddit system, so the "I hate drama" users here can hide them being shitstarters. He only saying that after being destroyed over insulting a user over admitting being a otherkin.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Weren't _you _banned at one point?
> 
> You wanted to discuss if Dogpatch was a legit source. We're talking about a story Dogpatch wrote which actually had decent sourcing. If you disagree, say why. If not, by all means continue chatting nonchalantly with Ovid to distract from what's going on.
> 
> Either way, do you.


I am not interested in a pissing match. Your attitude's not exactly been that of someone coming from a rational perspective, either. If your idea is to try and convince* anyone* that AltFurries and/or the idea of free speech is bad, you are doing an extremely poor job of it considering you've blatantly ignored everything said up until this point. I am not fond of being strawmanned, nor am I fond of being labeled something I am not. What has been said is literally in this thread in black and white. 

If by "sourcing" you mean shit taken out of context and of *one*(in this case, legofreak) guy, then no. The "source" is utter garbage. Did it ever occur to you to question everything you hear, read and see? And to perhaps look into claims that may seem.. Dubious at best? 

I find it rather concerning to indirectly be called an Alt-Righter and/or Nazi apologist/enabler/defender, seeing as I am Classical Liberal Centrist. If you want to insult, that's a good way of approaching it, I suppose.


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## quoting_mungo (Apr 21, 2018)

Infrarednexus said:


> I'm all for helping people too, especially those who have had the worst of luck. But he is not talking about the friendly children and families that come as immigrants, he is talking about the millions and millions of unchecked men from the middle east who have increased rape and crime rates to shocking numbers in European countries, with no regards to assimilation into a new culture or respecting the law. I don't hate immigrants and I don't judge where you come from, but the reality is that Europe has a serious cultural, social, and economical issue since they decided to let millions of people in every year in a noble effort to try and help them but without any regulation or background checking. Good intentions with bad results.
> 
> Believe me it has nothing to do with skin color.


Funny. I live in Europe, with firsthand experience of interacting with immigrants - some of them recent enough to still be going through their basic Swedish for Immigrants courses. They've never caused me any trouble - they're generally respectful, sometimes a bit fearful because they're surrounded by New Things, but they've all had respect for and a wish to find a place in their adopted country. Are they still holding on to parts of their culture? Yes, of course. And they're sharing it. Got some goddamn brilliant African cuisine the other week at a tiny corner shop/restaurant that by appearances also served as a sort of... cultural club. It was great, and the people there were so eager to introduce us to their culture. That doesn't hurt Swedish culture. That enriches it.

You're speaking fearmongering propaganda, not reality. Of course some immigrants/refugees will commit crimes. When you get groups large enough to be worthwhile looking at in aggregate there will be some bad apples among them. Statistics indicate that e.g. rape rarely crosses ethnic/cultural boundaries - _if_ an immigrant rapes someone, the victim is vastly more likely, statistically, to be an immigrant from the same general cultural group, than, say, a native of their adopted country.



lupi900 said:


> It's funny how many are upset over a fucking furry blog. For very petty reason's.


Psht, no. If it were related to as "a fucking furry blog" I doubt most of us would take much issue with it. There are people irritated with it being used/related to as a reputable news source. I give no fucks if Patch wants to run a blog about furry community. It irks me that he tries to present himself  as a journalist with professionalism, and that people are eating that up.



GreenZone said:


> a minority committed such a large number of crimes vigilantes started beating up any group from this minority they saw but that's not racism that's fighting back


That is absolutely racism. Regardless of your justifications, if you attack people for belonging to a particular minority group, you are committing violence against them on basis of race rather than what they have actually done. (And beating people up isn't a good solution to crime, anyway.) If you do not 100% know that _this individual_ has committed the crime you're pissed off about, attacking them because you're pissed off about the criminal act and they're of the same ethnicity as the supposed perpetrator, you are letting race be the justification for why this person deserves to be beat up.

Trying to defend or pretty that up is kind of terrible, to be perfectly honest.



Kyr said:


> But please, point me to his nazi sympathies. For the record i'm not saying he doesn't have them, just that i've never really seen them.


I know he's posted something to his blog in the past in the general vein of wishing that people would stop making disclaimers to the effect that nazi Germany was awful and they're only into it for the uniforms/historical interest etc. I also know he retweets shit from Breitbart, and has retweeted pretty blatantly racist/white-supremacist shit in the past. I'm talking tweets along the lines of "white people are objectively better than black people". Not saying this is absolute proof, but it's pretty damning. And since his Twitter is/was named after the AltFurry Discord, this reflects badly on AltFurry as a whole. It's like... if the CEO of Google hypothetically starts spouting racist bullshit, there's only so much "no really, Google is a company that believes in the equal value of all people regardless of ethnicity" you can realistically expect people to accept.



LogicNuke said:


> Most of the screenshots are relevant to the cases he is making.


And given that sharing them is violating a reasonable expectation of privacy, _all_ of them should be. I don't see why you find this to be such a problematic standard to hold Patch's reporting to. I've not contested the posting of the actually-relevant material.



LogicNuke said:


> Let me shatter that illusion. Dogpatch stole his evidence for this story from another forum which has published _far_ of Altfurry's business without _any _reservations about journalistic integrity. They have published information like phone numbers, home addresses, financial statuses, and criminal records in addition to any private communications they could get their hands on. Dogpatch, plagiarist and exhibitionist though he is, let Altfurry off light.


I don't know this other forum, so I can't say whether their journalistic integrity or lack thereof is even relevant (if it's Kiwifarms, it certainly isn't). It's relevant for Dogpatch Press because Patch styles himself a journalist. If he wants to be considered a news source, he should act accordingly, including holding himself to basic journalistic standards. That someone else doxxed the shit out of them doesn't mean violating their privacy only a little is not violating their privacy.

Nor do I see how this has any bearing on whether you're predisposed to see criticism of Patch's reporting on AltFurry as support for them.



LogicNuke said:


> Meanwhile, Dogpatch is writing a sympathetic article about Sisk, who was sent to prison for sending nude photos to a minor in a solicitation attempt and now is begging the furry community to bail him out?


You know, regardless of what you think of Sisk, misgendering her isn't the way to go.

You can question the wisdom of Patch's decision to publish Sisk's article, but to say that he is _writing_ it is factually incorrect. So I can't really use it as basis to criticize his journalism - at most, it could be a reason to criticize how he performs in his role as editor.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Psht, no. If it were related to as "a fucking furry blog" I doubt most of us would take much issue with it. There are people irritated with it being used/related to as a reputable news source. I give no fucks if Patch wants to run a blog about furry community. It irks me that he tries to present himself as a journalist with professionalism, and that people are eating that up.



Why are you still here blowing up at the fact. No one gives a shit about your beef with Dogpatch?. Getting hostile inst gonna change what i said on page 1.


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## solacedelayed (Apr 21, 2018)

You know.. this thread got me thinking about correlations.

I wonder how many people that consider themselves to be "A furry" get or watch their news from local or common sources.

Like, for example, they consider themselves a furry but consistently watch their local news, or watch msn, or watch fox news, or if they mostly use the internet, get it from msn.com or cnn.com.

Edit: Oh, also, I know I am reviving a dead meme here, but this thread makes me feel: "trolling trolls is the same as pissing into a sea of piss"

I don't know maybe the metaphor is lost on me.. -shrugs-


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why are you still here blowing up at the fact. No one gives a shit about your beef with Dogpatch?. Getting hostile inst gonna change what i said on page 1.


The owner of DogPatch claims to be a journalist. Well, in that case, we are to hold him to journalistic standards and hold him accountable if he doesn't fill those standards. It's not rocket science. Journalists are not exempt from criticism, especially not when they do a poor job at their supposed profession.



quoting_mungo said:


> I know he's posted something to his blog in the past in the general vein of wishing that people would stop making disclaimers to the effect that nazi Germany was awful and they're only into it for the uniforms/historical interest etc. I also know he retweets shit from Breitbart, and has retweeted pretty blatantly racist/white-supremacist shit in the past. I'm talking tweets along the lines of "white people are objectively better than black people". Not saying this is absolute proof, but it's pretty damning. And since his Twitter is/was named after the AltFurry Discord, this reflects badly on AltFurry as a whole. It's like... if the CEO of Google hypothetically starts spouting racist bullshit, there's only so much "no really, Google is a company that believes in the equal value of all people regardless of ethnicity" you can realistically expect people to accept.


Lets look at it this way: The CEO of Google is an owner, a leader of a company. Google is an official business company. AltFurry is only a loose group of people with little in common apart from liking the idea of free speech.

If you work for Google your CEO/company defines what you officially stand for. If you work for Google your actions(or lack there of) will reflect upon the company. Google is a hierarchy. You have objective standards to follow. A work contract to follow. Your colleagues will be affected by what you say and what you do. In Google, association is compelled. And you will be fired if you don't follow the standards and/or your behaviour is unacceptable.

AltFurry is not a company. It is not a hierarchy in any way, shape or form. There is no contract. There are no standards to follow. In AltFurry, association is 100% voluntary. Even if your behaviour is garbage it is a label you can still use, even if you are not part of any group. It's simply wrong to try and apply standards onto a group where the group dynamics are completely different. Well, you can try, but the ones whom you try and apply it on can simply state "no, that is not how it works". AltFurry is an optional label, free to associate yourself with. It's not something you can force not to use. Be it legally nor socially.

Foxler have said stupid shit though, and he's gotten the appropriate criticism for it, just like everyone else who labels themselves AltFurry.



solacedelayed said:


> You know.. this thread got me thinking about correlations.
> 
> I wonder how many people that consider themselves to be "A furry" get or watch their news from local or common sources.
> 
> Like, for example, they consider themselves a furry but consistently watch their local news, or watch msn, or watch fox news, or if they mostly use the internet, get it from msn.com or cnn.com.


That would entirely depend on which outlets they prefer and what platform they like and in what format.

Some like Daily Caller. Some like Fox. Some like CNN. Some like BBC. Some like MSNBC. Some like Breitbart. Some like to watch channels on Youtube from for instance Tim Pool, Styxhexenhammer666, Dave Rubin, Stefan Molyneux, Phillip DeFranco, +++. The potential combinations are endless.


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## Ginza (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why are you still here blowing up at the fact. No one gives a shit about your beef with Dogpatch?. Getting hostile inst gonna change what i said on page 1.



>"stop being hostile"
>"no one gives a shit about your beef"

Intriguing. 


Maybe some people here should chill out, and stop resorting to flinging insults and name calling? Are we five? This thread is about a _furry _news source. If that's not the most laughable thing I've ever heard, then I don't know what is.


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## Troj (Apr 21, 2018)

I'm on the fence about screencapping and the other issues some folks flagged in this thread. When is your expectation of privacy reasonable, and when is it not? That's hard to say, especially on the Internet.

At least, I'm glad when people (like Patch) actually cite their sources when sharing news or repeating rumors. Otherwise, it's just another voice added to the usual he-said she-said cacophony.

My bias is that I absolutely detest the alt-right--and so, detest its furry spin-off--and hate how the "culture wars" have trickled down into the furry fandom. 

So, I take Patch's "culture wars" coverage as a guide to furries to avoid or at least be wary of, and a more general cautionary tale about thinking twice about the friends you choose, the behaviors you tolerate, the remarks you parrot, and the attitudes you absorb.


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## quoting_mungo (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why are you still here blowing up at the fact. No one gives a shit about your beef with Dogpatch?. Getting hostile inst gonna change what i said on page 1.


... please point out to me where I am getting hostile, much less blowing up? I'm absolutely calling out and brushing off your derision of people's issues with Patch O'Furr's reporting, as you are dismissing them based on a mischaracterization of what their actual complaints are, yes. That's if anything less hostile than the post of yours I responded to.

I don't expect people to care specifically about the issues I have personally with Patch (as in, how he's treated me); I have mentioned them as the situation is one where I _know_ he has deliberately posted misleading comments for dramatic effect. That he does so in one situation calls the rest of his reporting where he suggests connections between people or events in similar ways into suspicion.

I'm not sure which of your posts on page 1 you're referring to. You made one misrepresenting ResolutionBlaze as being upset about Dogpatch's bias (the exact same point you then repeated in the post I replied to). Since that's at best secondary to the main point of contention (that it's being treated as a legitimate/reliable source), it's a pretty poor strawman argument. You made another where you mischaracterize Blaze as questioning Patch's reporting based on ideology alone and insult everyone in the thread who doesn't share your opinion.  Neither of these posts rests on a solid factual foundation; while you may _think_ people sound like 16 (because, hey, that's your opinion), ad hominem attacks are not how you refute other people's arguments. Especially not when all of your argumentation in this thread to date seems to primarily rest on taking potshots at other posters and asserting that someone who makes effort to present their content as independent news should be held to the standards of a blogger who writes opinion pieces, rather than standards of journalism. And you're free to see Dogpatch Press that way. That's fine. But if you want to convince anyone else, you need to bring better arguments in support of your position and fewer personal attacks to the table.



Yakamaru said:


> Lets look at it this way: The CEO of Google is an owner, a leader of a company. Google is an official business company. AltFurry is only a loose group of people with little in common apart from liking the idea of free speech.
> 
> If you work for Google your CEO/company defines what you officially stand for. If you work for Google your actions(or lack there of) will reflect upon the company. Google is a hierarchy. You have objective standards to follow. A work contract to follow. Your colleagues will be affected by what you say and what you do. In Google, association is compelled. And you will be fired if you don't follow the standards and/or your behaviour is unacceptable.
> 
> AltFurry is not a company. It is not a hierarchy in any way, shape or form. There is no contract. There are no standards to follow. In AltFurry, association is 100% voluntary. Even if your behaviour is garbage it is a label you can still use, even if you are not part of any group. It's simply wrong to try and apply standards onto a group where the group dynamics are completely different. Well, you can try, but the ones whom you try and apply it on can simply state "no, that is not how it works". AltFurry is an optional label, free to associate yourself with. It's not something you can force not to use. Be it legally nor socially.


That's ignoring the fact that these things have been done using a Twitter account that is/was literally named for the AltFurry Discord. I absolutely understand that the group hierarchies are not identical, and that Google's organization is a lot more formal, but the point I'm making isn't substantially changed by those differences. People who call themselves AltFurry are visibly, publicly, responding positively to the Twitter account.  The Twitter account is named (both display name and @ name) for AltFurry Discord. This indicates that AltFurry has no problem with the account (in the sense that it's not some third party who randomly snagged the @ name to troll).

Association being voluntary doesn't mean it's a good idea to label yourself with a name that is so strongly tied to highly questionable at best public behavior. Len has become a figurehead/representative for what AltFurry is, and repeating "but this is not our stated purpose" doesn't change that. He has an organizational role. To the best of my understanding y'all have had people who are mods and people who aren't. That *is* a hierarchy.

You have chosen to label yourself with a label that alludes to far-right extremism, and which is tarnished by the actions of influential members of your group. If a random fringe member does something heinously stupid, sure, there's an argument for saying "he doesn't represent the group", just like some random rank-and-file Google employee's hypothetical stupid actions aren't indicative of the company's values. It's still questionable to keep supporting that fringe member when they deliberately go around poking beehives, but I'll give you a pass since I can't honestly recall if you had any association with the individual I'm thinking of. Thing is, we're not talking some random fringe member. Far as I know Len was technically the owner of the AltFurry Discord. His actions _will_ reflect on the group more than some random person.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I don't expect people to care specifically about the issues I have personally with Patch (as in, how he's treated me); I have mentioned them as the situation is one where I _know_ he has deliberately posted misleading comments for dramatic effect. That he does so in one situation calls the rest of his reporting where he suggests connections between people or events in similar ways into suspicion.
> 
> I'm not sure which of your posts on page 1 you're referring to. You made one misrepresenting ResolutionBlaze as being upset about Dogpatch's bias (the exact same point you then repeated in the post I replied to). Since that's at best secondary to the main point of contention (that it's being treated as a legitimate/reliable source), it's a pretty poor strawman argument. You made another where you mischaracterize Blaze as questioning Patch's reporting based on ideology alone and insult everyone in the thread who doesn't share your opinion. Neither of these posts rests on a solid factual foundation; while you may _think_ people sound like 16 (because, hey, that's your opinion), ad hominem attacks are not how you refute other people's arguments. Especially not when all of your argumentation in this thread to date seems to primarily rest on taking potshots at other posters and asserting that someone who makes effort to present their content as independent news should be held to the standards of a blogger who writes opinion pieces, rather than standards of journalism. And you're free to see Dogpatch Press that way. That's fine. But if you want to convince anyone else, you need to bring better arguments in support of your position and fewer personal attacks to the table.



Why bring better arguments when you just dodge them as usual?. I got modded a year by you on that talking about old staff as witch hunting. But suddenly its okay because of your beef with a furry blog?, which is off site drama by the way fall under the same rules too. 

Who is the real child here?.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

LogicNuke said:


> Due to the epic length of this thread saga, I'm going to repost this helpful information on Foxler Nightfire:
> 
> _Foxler is a founder and CEO of the Furry Raiders,[5][6] a social group headquartered in Colorado that began on Second Life.[5] The group's logo, a black paw print in a white circle on a solid-color background that is default red,[7] and often worn in real life by members as an armband or drawn on characters of members, has been criticized as resembling the Nazi brassard.[8][9] This logo was designed by Foxler.[7]
> 
> ...


Nice attempt trying to discredit my standpoint by claiming i'm potentially defending Zoophilia and Pedophilia by defending Foxler, but all you've really done here is given me the opportunity to use your own words against you.



LogicNuke said:


> If you're going to shit on Dogpatch, do it properly.


The same applies to Foxler. I'm not defending him against the allegations/proof that he's into fido and underage girls. If he is a zoo/pedophile that is something to, to quote your words, shit on him for. What i am refuting are the assertions that he's a Nazi.

Now, i have told you i spent months in his server, spent hours listening to his interviews getting the story from his mouth and forming my own opinion of his personality through that. And it is not necessarily a flattering opinion. If the extent you know about Foxler is through a Wikifur article, which i would assume seeing as you've cited it twice now, then i can claim with confidence i know more about the man than you do.

I have already explained why i don't believe Foxler has genuine National Socialist beliefs so to avoid retreading old ground i'm going to tell you where that Wikifur article is incorrect. Foxler did not create the design for the Raiders armband, it was taken from the nazifur group Furzi on Second Life. He may have altered the design slightly but that is it's origin. He has stated that he wasn't aware of the resemblance to the Nazi flag when he first came across it and used it because it was a free item. Now given what i've seen of him i can fully believe that he was that oblivious to the armband's origin. It is however possible that he wasn't, and he's certainly played up to assorted nazi imagery since then. He has stated that he doesn't associate the armband with nazis, rather he associates it with his character and with furries. This is why he won't get rid of it. Then again, that's a response that would piss people off and i wouldn't be surprised if that's a reason he flirts with nazi shit at this point.

Actions speak louder than words, indeed, and all you have against him in regards to potential nazi sympathies are words. Can you ascertain the intent behind them through his subsequent actions? Or can you find anything concrete where he espouses Nazi rhetoric with genuine conviction? He's said he was the Hitler of the furry fandom, well can you even tell me what that's supposed to mean? It may have something to do with a joke amongst his friends where he said that bronies were the jews of the furry fandom and should all be exterminated. Can you not see how these things are so ridiculous that they're inherently hilarious? Why is Foxler a nazi. Can you give anything, anything whatsoever, that's actually concrete?


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I know he's posted something to his blog in the past in the general vein of wishing that people would stop making disclaimers to the effect that nazi Germany was awful and they're only into it for the uniforms/historical interest etc. I also know he retweets shit from Breitbart, and has retweeted pretty blatantly racist/white-supremacist shit in the past. I'm talking tweets along the lines of "white people are objectively better than black people". Not saying this is absolute proof, but it's pretty damning. And since his Twitter is/was named after the AltFurry Discord, this reflects badly on AltFurry as a whole. It's like... if the CEO of Google hypothetically starts spouting racist bullshit, there's only so much "no really, Google is a company that believes in the equal value of all people regardless of ethnicity" you can realistically expect people to accept.



As it happens i've seen an interview with Len since my last reply that clarifies his political stance. He does identify as a nationalist. Now this is personally fascinating as it gives me an opportunity to eventually ask him, in some depth, about the intricacies of his beliefs. Yakamaru has gone into some depth about how the altfurry thing isn't a homogeneous group where everyone has the same core beliefs. It is, at it's core, about the principles of free speech and the possibility for civil, adult disagreement. That's what i believe it's about anyway, and that's why i support it. If you or anyone else here may be interested, here's the interview i was talking about.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> He has stated that he wasn't aware of the resemblance to the Nazi flag when he first came across it and used it because it was a free item.



How does one not know there using a logo from a nazifur community?. This sounds more like pleading ignorance/dodging blame than actually him having no clue.

There countless posts on Reddit on him using legit nazi material same with altfurry & the furry raiders. Wikifur is not the only source dude. It looks like my old Reddit comment still rings true "If you use transgressive tactics for attention. They have no right to cry when they get hostile reactions." 

Are you saying the discord staff are morons for removing few alt-furry discords that had hate speech in it?. Being ironically racist is still racism.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> How does one not know there using a logo from a nazifur community?. This sounds more like pleading ignorance than actually him having no clue.
> 
> There countless posts on Reddit on him using legit nazi material.


I'm not saying he hasn't done that, but i do question why given what i've seen of him.

And that's an explanation he gave in the interview with him i posted earlier in the thread. Whether it's true or not is certainly up for debate but it's certainly within the realms of possibility, given what i've picked up from him, that he was clueless about it.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Is dogpatch run by starfox or something? Because here is an interesting article blasting alt-furries:
> 
> dogpatch.press: A deep dive into the Altfurry mission to “redpill” fandom with hate – Part 1
> 
> ...


As it happens in part 2 of that...thing i'm actually discussed about by Naskatan and Len in some of the leaked screenshots. It covers the circumstances that led me to altfurry in the first place and it's hilarious to see Dogpatch's biased take on events i personally witnessed.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> As it happens in part 2 of that...thing i'm actually discussed about by Naskatan and Len in some of the leaked screenshots. It covers the circumstances that led me to altfurry in the first place and it's hilarious to see Dogpatch's biased take on events i personally witnessed.



He's using the same content that i found on Reddit & other websites?. How can he biased, i can very easily same the same with you since your just expecting to us to believe there are misunderstood angels?.

How about actually reading the links, since ignoring them voids any of your arguments.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Nice attempt trying to discredit my standpoint by claiming i'm potentially defending Zoophilia and Pedophilia by defending Foxler, but all you've really done here is given me the opportunity to use your own words against you.
> 
> 
> The same applies to Foxler. I'm not defending him against the allegations/proof that he's into fido and underage girls. If he is a zoo/pedophile that is something to, to quote your words, shit on him for. What i am refuting are the assertions that he's a Nazi.
> ...



Okay, but to be fair, why defend this person at all? What do you gain by it? I've seen screenshots where he's using a Hitler icon. Now if your sole intention is to be a jerk, that accomplishes the mission pretty well. But since this group is calling themselves alt right, has a logo sourced from a nazifur group, and has other run ins with fascist types of speech, im not super inclined to give these people a free pass. I'm not inclined to give them much bad attention either, as they appear to do that readily on their own. If some Raiders happen to come into the forum, I'll happily give them an intellectual marathon, howeve.


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## solacedelayed (Apr 21, 2018)

@ *Yakamaru*

I guess then I would just wonder what the break down between, furries that get their news from msn.com, cnn.com, local station to their area (whatever area) vs getting their news from anywhere but those.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Okay, but to be fair, why defend this person at all? What do you gain by it? I've seen screenshots where he's using a Hitler icon. Now if your sole intention is to be a jerk, that accomplishes the mission pretty well. But since this group is calling themselves alt right, has a logo sourced from a nazifur group, and has other run ins with fascist types of speech, im not super inclined to give these people a free pass. I'm not inclined to give them much bad attention either, as they appear to do that readily on their own. If some Raiders happen to come into the forum, I'll happily give them an intellectual marathon, howeve.



FYI he thinks because foxler is not white he can't be racist. While forgetting the black panthers aka the black KKK exists.


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## Troj (Apr 21, 2018)

In my estimation, Foxler seems to _enjoy_ playing "peekaboo" around whether he's _really_ a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer, and gets mileage out of playing the victim when people accuse him of being a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. So, I've warned people not to fall for these rhetorical tricks and traps, and to instead stay focused on the things he has _said_ and _done_, regardless of what he supposedly _intended_ or _meant.

Also, _it's important to understand that for every German who cheered the extermination of 'degenerates' in Nazi Germany, there were dozens more who didn't care or didn't want to get involved--so, the common belief that you're _either_ a "true believer" or you're fine/good/innocent is naive and simplistic. (See also: "They're just trolling.")



Kyr said:


> Now this is personally fascinating as it gives me an opportunity to eventually ask him, in some depth, about the intricacies of his beliefs.



This assumes, of course, that people are being honest---with themselves, with you, with others--about their beliefs.

People who want to recruit others to their movement or ideology will of course want to present it in its best light, and if they're savvy and smart, they'll know how to spin, frame, hide, or flat-out lie about problematic, evil, crazy, controversial, or objectionable parts of their worldview.

There's a reason the Church of Scientology waits until you've spent millions of dollars and years of your life before telling you that their religion is based on the practice of banishing dead aliens from your body so you can fly, read minds, and walk through walls.

There's also a reason David Duke and, especially, Richard Spencer dress nicely, speak well, avoid using slurs in public, avoid waving around traditional white supremacist and Nazi symbols in public, and emphasize that they're "peaceful" and "not hateful."


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why are you still here blowing up at the fact. No one gives a shit about your beef with Dogpatch?. Getting hostile inst gonna change what i said on page 1.



Given that this is the entire argument, you probably should if you desire credibility in any discussion.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> How does one not know there using a logo from a nazifur community?. This sounds more like pleading ignorance/dodging blame than actually him having no clue.
> 
> There countless posts on Reddit on him using legit nazi material same with altfurry & the furry raiders. Wikifur is not the only source dude. It looks like my old Reddit comment still rings true "If you use transgressive tactics for attention. They have no right to cry when they get hostile reactions."
> 
> Are you saying the discord staff are morons for removing few alt-furry discords that had hate speech in it?. Being ironically racist is still racism.


Responding to the additions. I agree with your Reddit comment, all actions have consequences. If they're hostile they're hostile.

I'm saying the Discord trust and Safety "team" was completely misguided in deleting the Furry Raiders server as there was nothing far right on there. There is notable far right stuff in altfurry servers, partially because of a self fulfilling prophecy in the case of people like Legofreak, but the server didn't call for violence in any way, and those that did got banned. The removal of the altfurry discord was honestly understandable, but it was an overreaction to a problem caused by completely different groups with completely different core belief structures.


lupi900 said:


> He's using the same content that i found on Reddit & other websites?. How can he biased, i can very easily same the same with you since your just expecting to us to believe there are misunderstood angels?.
> 
> How about actually reading the links, since ignoring them voids any of your arguments.


Are you refering to Dogpatch here? I'm saying i was directly involved in one of the things he put a spin on and know he's lying about it. What's that got to do with Reddit?

And as it happens i have your link open in another tab. A google search option revealing people talking about Foxler and the Raiders is a lot to wade through to find...what, that pic of him posing in front of a Nazi flag?

I'll wade through it if you really want me to though.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Responding to the additions. I agree with your Reddit comment, all actions have consequences. If they're hostile they're hostile.
> 
> I'm saying the Discord trust and Safety "team" was completely misguided in deleting the Furry Raiders server as there was nothing far right on there. There is notable far right stuff in altfurry servers, partially because of a self fulfilling prophecy in the case of people like Legofreak, but the server didn't call for violence in any way, and those that did got banned. The removal of the altfurry discord was honestly understandable, but it was an overreaction to a problem caused by completely different groups with completely different core belief structures.
> 
> ...



You've said the claims against Foxler are unjustified, to paraphrase. In what way? You're defending him and his actions, at this point, both directly and through tacit association. Altfurries and raiders endorsing free speech and civil conversation is hardly unusual - plenty of leftists call for this as well. 

You're saying you know him better than we do since all we can go on is twitter and Reddit comments. In what ways are these claims false?


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> Okay, but to be fair, why defend this person at all? What do you gain by it? I've seen screenshots where he's using a Hitler icon. Now if your sole intention is to be a jerk, that accomplishes the mission pretty well. But since this group is calling themselves alt right, has a logo sourced from a nazifur group, and has other run ins with fascist types of speech, im not super inclined to give these people a free pass. I'm not inclined to give them much bad attention either, as they appear to do that readily on their own. If some Raiders happen to come into the forum, I'll happily give them an intellectual marathon, howeve.



I gain nothing, i simply wish to inform people as i know that there is a lot of nonsense surrounding these groups. And i personally think that labelling people as Nazis can be easily used to dismiss and shut someone down without having to think critically.



lupi900 said:


> FYI he thinks because foxler is not white he can't be racist. While forgetting the black panthers aka the black KKK exists.



Please don't put words into my mouth, especially when they're this stupid.



Troj said:


> In my estimation, Foxler seems to _enjoy_ playing "peekaboo" around whether he's _really_ a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer, and gets mileage out of playing the victim when people accuse him of being a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. So, I've warned people not to fall for these rhetorical tricks and traps, and to instead stay focused on the things he has _said_ and _done_, regardless of what he supposedly _intended_ or _meant.
> _
> 
> 
> ...



Indeed, but i'm not the type to be convinced of an ideology through manipulation. It's possible the higher ups of the group could be lying, but to be it seems to undermine that potential nefarious end goal that no one can seem to prove by painting their group as something it's not. I mean if you do that you get people like me, people that view the group as standing for something other than explicitly right wing ideals, and if people like me end up forming the majority though the potentially false image these groups convey how long would it be before that's the group's true purpose?

Tbh this all sounds like paranoid nonsense based on little more than fear to me, then again i could be what they call a useful idiot, who can say.

I can say i know little of Richard Spencer or David Duke and the modern alt right's fascination with ethnostates and racial purity is horrendously simplistic to the point of being a braindead scapegoat.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> You've said the claims against Foxler are unjustified, to paraphrase. In what way? You're defending him and his actions, at this point, both directly and through tacit association. Altfurries and raiders endorsing free speech and civil conversation is hardly unusual - plenty of leftists call for this as well.
> 
> You're saying you know him better than we do since all we can go on is twitter and Reddit comments. In what ways are these claims false?


Link me to specific comments so i can address them or give me the time to go through the links you've provided please.

I'm not sure what your specific claims are at this point and thus have to idea how to state why i think they're false, if i even came to that conclusion.

Oh, and i support the "leftists" that are capable of having civil, adult discussions with their political opponents too. My oldest friend identifies as a leftist feminist as it happens and our beliefs don't actually differ all that much.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> That's ignoring the fact that these things have been done using a Twitter account that is/was literally named for the AltFurry Discord. I absolutely understand that the group hierarchies are not identical, and that Google's organization is a lot more formal, but the point I'm making isn't substantially changed by those differences. People who call themselves AltFurry are visibly, publicly, responding positively to the Twitter account.  The Twitter account is named (both display name and @ name) for AltFurry Discord. This indicates that AltFurry has no problem with the account (in the sense that it's not some third party who randomly snagged the @ name to troll).


Yes, you are correct. It was a place for AltFurries to gather and to do shit without having crap like political correctness shoved down their throats. A place for us to freely express ourselves and to get shit back if people don't like it. Express yourself publicly, be it through trolling or a genuine viewpoint, people have a right to react however they wish. AltFurry is merely the idea of free speech realized.



quoting_mungo said:


> Association being voluntary doesn't mean it's a good idea to label yourself with a name that is so strongly tied to highly questionable at best public behavior. Len has become a figurehead/representative for what AltFurry is, and repeating "but this is not our stated purpose" doesn't change that. He has an organizational role. To the best of my understanding y'all have had people who are mods and people who aren't. That *is* a hierarchy.


And who tied the label AltFurry with highly questionable at best public behaviour? Sure as hell wasn't AltFurries. AltFurry don't have a purpose apart from the right to express yourself freely.

And we're talking a Discord server here, of individuals of everything from the Left-wing to the Right-wing, Libertarians and Authoritarians alike. We are not talking about an organized hierarchy structure such as how it works in a company.



quoting_mungo said:


> You have chosen to label yourself with a label that alludes to far-right extremism, and which is tarnished by the actions of influential members of your group. If a random fringe member does something heinously stupid, sure, there's an argument for saying "he doesn't represent the group", just like some random rank-and-file Google employee's hypothetical stupid actions aren't indicative of the company's values. It's still questionable to keep supporting that fringe member when they deliberately go around poking beehives, but I'll give you a pass since I can't honestly recall if you had any association with the individual I'm thinking of. Thing is, we're not talking some random fringe member. Far as I know Len was technically the owner of the AltFurry Discord. His actions _will_ reflect on the group more than some random person.


An alluded connection that quite frankly is being thrown our way by Far-Left ideologues such as DogPatch. It is not a connection that is used by AltFurries themselves.That said, AltFurry is for everyone who value free speech. Extremist or not.

We however don't shun, censor or outlaw extreme views no matter who expresses it or what it is. We mock and criticize the shit out of it. That is the very idea of free speech. Your ideas stand on their own two feet.

Yes, Len and Foxler are influential figures. But like celebs, they do not speak for the population. Merely owning a Discord server does not mean they speak for the people on it.

Lets look at it this way: When someone is claimed(by someone else) to believing something(which in this case, is a rather extreme ideology), wouldn't the more rational path to take be to actually ask them directly rather than believe shit said by someone else? Second-hand information is at best questionable, love.

No one likes compelled speech, which is one of the reasons why AltFurry became this popular in the first place.



solacedelayed said:


> @ *Yakamaru*
> 
> I guess then I would just wonder what the break down between, furries that get their news from msn.com, cnn.com, local station to their area (whatever area) vs getting their news from anywhere but those.


Hmm... That I can't really answer, unfortunately. Would have to ask people directly, I guess.



Troj said:


> This assumes, of course, that people are being honest---with themselves, with you, with others--about their beliefs.
> 
> People who want to recruit others to their movement or ideology will of course want to present it in its best light, and if they're savvy and smart, they'll know how to spin, frame, hide, or flat-out lie about problematic, evil, crazy, controversial, or objectionable parts of their worldview.
> 
> ...


Of course. There is always the possibility of someone lying. And somewhere down the road, someone will end up lying, statistically speaking, anyway.

That is why actions are important to observe. Someone's words means nothing if their actions are not in correlation with their words.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

Ok, just clicked on the first link from the google search menu that Lupi posted, this is what was there.







What is even happening right now?


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Ok, just clicked on the first link from the google search menu that Lupi posted, this is what was there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice cherry picking just ignore the countless reddit threads that go into detail what a joke this and group are.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> Link me to specific comments so i can address them or give me the time to go through the links you've provided please.
> 
> I'm not sure what your specific claims are at this point and thus have to idea how to state why i think they're false, if i even came to that conclusion.
> 
> Oh, and i support the "leftists" that are capable of having civil, adult discussions with their political opponents too. My oldest friend identifies as a leftist feminist as it happens and our beliefs don't actually differ all that much.



I'm simply criticizing your overall support / defense for Foxler. What is your rationale for this beyond vague "he's not what you think he is" hamdwaving? Because everything others and even you pull up makes me think he is the type of person people are saying he is. 

Not that it really even matters to me, like I've said, but I believe that association indicates tacit approval, especially voluntary association. 



Kyr said:


> What is even happening right now?



You tell me?


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Nice cherry picking just ignore the countless reddit threads that go into detail what a joke this and group are.



I dunno why you're so enamored by REDDIT of all places as a source of reliable info considering it's no more reliable than Dogpatch we were debating about.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Nice cherry picking just ignore the countless reddit threads that go into detail what a joke this and group are.


Mate, if the threads you're talking about are so easy to find then post them directly. That was literally the first thing i found, at the top of the page, from the link you previously provided.

I'm a busy man and i'm not gonna waste my time wading through shit like that because you're too lazy to do the legwork involved in bolstering your own bloody points.


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## Troj (Apr 21, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> That is why actions are important to observe. Someone's words means nothing if their actions are not in correlation with their words.



As the saying goes, don't just listen to what people say, watch what they actually _do.
_
In particular, take note of who people socialize with, what they say when they assume others aren't listening, how they treat people who are weaker or smaller than them, how they react to constructive or legitimate criticism, how they handle making a mistake, and how they react when their stated beliefs, values, or principles are challenged.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I dunno why you're so enamored by REDDIT of all places as a source of reliable info considering it's no more reliable than Dogpatch we were debating about.



Never said reddit, all sites have info on what a clown foxler is. Why are you upset that i have different view on dogpatch than you?, are you like 15 or something?. 

Your constant hateboner for him is more pathetic. You cry how he has bias or shit sources, yet here you are blowing up because his altright furries line up with what the furry community thinks of them. 

I'm surprised you have any friends considering you handle where they get there furry based news from.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I'm simply criticizing your overall support / defense for Foxler. What is your rationale for this beyond vague "he's not what you think he is" hamdwaving? Because everything others and even you pull up makes me think he is the type of person people are saying he is.
> 
> Not that it really even matters to me, like I've said, but I believe that association indicates tacit approval, especially voluntary association.


From what i've seen of him i don't believe he's a Nazi, if you don't want to believe my reasoning you're free not to. I honestly don't care about Foxler either, i care about people potentially being labeled things they're not, even if they were stupid enough to bring such suspicion on themselves, and demonized for it.

What are you saying Foxler is associated with exactly and why?


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## ResolutionBlaze (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why are you upset that i have different view on dogpatch than you?, are you like 15 or something?.
> 
> Your constant hateboner for him is more pathetic. You cry how he has bias or shit sources, yet here you are blowing up because his altright furries line up with what thinks of them.



Jesus Christ, I asked a fucking question and this is what you're devolving too?

I asked it aggressively sure but I didn't even mention Dogpatch in this.  I was genuinely wondering why you were so concerned with Reddit.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> I dunno why you're so enamored by REDDIT of all places as a source of reliable info considering it's no more reliable than Dogpatch we were debating about.


We've also kinda gone waaaay off-topic. >_>



lupi900 said:


> Nice cherry picking just ignore the countless reddit threads that go into detail what a joke this and group are.


DogPatch's journalistic integrity is questionable at best. Especially considering the last two lost lawsuits and is currently losing a third. All on accounts of defamation.



Troj said:


> As the saying goes, don't just listen to what people say, watch what they actually _do._


Exactly.

Back on-topic of DogPatch. Curtis Kaiju made a more recent video on Dogpatch found here:


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

ResolutionBlaze said:


> Jesus Christ, I asked a fucking question and this is what you're devolving too?
> 
> I asked it aggressively sure but I didn't even mention Dogpatch in this.  I was genuinely wondering why you were so concerned with Reddit.



Because they have 4 threads that go into deeper detail on foxler in one area, I'm active user there?. Dogpatch is the one who made the alt right stories on his blog, now your angry I'm showing his sources add up?.  



Yakamaru said:


> DogPatch's journalistic integrity is questionable at best. Especially considering the last two lost lawsuits and is currently losing a third. All on accounts of defamation.



Yes calling out a furry hate group is defamation. Why are you ignoring he using info from other websites that say the same shit about foxler/alt-furry.


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## BahgDaddy (Apr 21, 2018)

Kyr said:


> From what i've seen of him i don't believe he's a Nazi, if you don't want to believe my reasoning you're free not to. I honestly don't care about Foxler either, i care about people potentially being labeled things they're not, even if they were stupid enough to bring such suspicion on themselves, and demonized for it.
> 
> What are you saying Foxler is associated with exactly and why?



I'm saying he's associated with bestiality, hebophilia, and the alt right. 

Most people these days are not actual Nazis. But they can sure sympathize. 

At the end of the day, I don't care enough about one bored furry's drama enough to tackle it more in depth. As quite frankly that seems to be what they want people to do. I certainly, in various ways, would not consider him an ethical person. 

I'd reccomend choosing your bed fellows more cautiously in the future.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> I'm saying he's associated with bestiality, hebophilia, and the alt right.
> 
> Most people these days are not actual Nazis. But they can sure sympathize.
> 
> ...


Trust me, i have.

And nowhere have i stated he's an ethical person.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Yes calling out a furry hate group is defamation. Why are you ignoring he using info from other websites that say the same shit about foxler/alt-furry.


You seem really invested in this despite claiming otherwise?


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## Infrarednexus (Apr 21, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> Funny. I live in Europe, with firsthand experience of interacting with immigrants - some of them recent enough to still be going through their basic Swedish for Immigrants courses. They've never caused me any trouble - they're generally respectful, sometimes a bit fearful because they're surrounded by New Things, but they've all had respect for and a wish to find a place in their adopted country. Are they still holding on to parts of their culture? Yes, of course. And they're sharing it. Got some goddamn brilliant African cuisine the other week at a tiny corner shop/restaurant that by appearances also served as a sort of... cultural club. It was great, and the people there were so eager to introduce us to their culture. That doesn't hurt Swedish culture. That enriches it.
> 
> You're speaking fearmongering propaganda, not reality. Of course some immigrants/refugees will commit crimes. When you get groups large enough to be worthwhile looking at in aggregate there will be some bad apples among them. Statistics indicate that e.g. rape rarely crosses ethnic/cultural boundaries - _if_ an immigrant rapes someone, the victim is vastly more likely, statistically, to be an immigrant from the same general cultural group, than, say, a native of their adopted country.
> 
> ...



Thank you for offering that alternative perspective to my post in a respectful fashion. I appreciate good manners, especially on cultural and political topics.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

Yakamaru said:


> You seem really invested in this despite claiming otherwise?



Nice twisting. when there 5 pages of you defending a alt right group, Never reading any of links we post and just give us childish replies mocking us instead of arguing.

You seem really invested in going lengths to say there a friendly group when that not true at all. Call discord admins morons for removing a few alt-right discords.

Like how self unware can you get dude.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Nice twisting. when there 5 pages of you defending a alt right group, Never reading any of links we post and just give us childish replies mocking us instead of arguing.
> 
> You seem really invested in going lengths to say there a friendly group when that not true at all. Call discord admins morons for removing a few alt-right discords.
> 
> Like how self unware can you get dude.


Please. Feel free to quote me where I am explicitly defending an Alt-Right group.

Aaaand blocked..


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Nice twisting. when there 5 pages of you defending a alt right group, Never reading any of links we post and just give us childish replies mocking us instead of arguing.
> 
> You seem really invested in going lengths to say there a friendly group when that not true at all. Call discord admins morons for removing a few alt-right discords.
> 
> Like how self unware can you get dude.


I know this is directed towards Yak but i have to say. We've given explanations of what the group is from an inside pov, we've provided interviews with the people that run these damn groups basically confirming what we say, we never said that it was a friendly group or that the people there are angels, and childish replies? Son, you put legitimately idiotic words into my mouth that were unrelated to anything i was saying just to dismiss what i was saying instead of countering my points.

The discord trust and safety team were overzealous and if the info i have on the staff is correct, biased in their decision. Altfurry i can understand being removed from Discord, i've already stated that in fact. The Raiders, based on what i saw when i was in the damn group, said nothing whatsoever that would be considered far right.

And as for your link. If you've read these threads you know what to look for, can find them and post direct links to them easily. Personally i'm not too inclined to wade through a bunch of links not pertinent to any assertions you've made. I couldn't even reliably say i stumbled on the threads you're referring to that way. If you genuinely want me to read something, as i stated in that post you just ignored. Find the threads that bolster the claims you've made, post them here and i promise you i'll read them. Because i'm really not interested in wading through memes for some kid that can't engage with people he disagrees with respectfully.

And Lupi's response to this was to block me, how mature.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> dogpatch.press: What I learned from lurking the Furry Raiders chat – guest post by Aristide
> 
> This may be of interest to some. I find the claim that this Raiders and Altfurries were NOT far right, to be very far fetched.



They literally sound just as gross as the alt-right subs that Reddit banned. It's funny there supporting a ideology that would shoot them on sight for being mildly autstic, furry & lgbt.


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## Kyr (Apr 21, 2018)

BahgDaddy said:


> dogpatch.press: What I learned from lurking the Furry Raiders chat – guest post by Aristide
> 
> This may be of interest to some. I find the claim that this Raiders and Altfurries were NOT far right, to be very far fetched.


I have to go out and i hope this thread doesn't get locked before i get back as i know that that article's assertions can be countered easily. Both with the narrative Dogpatch has spun and because i was there at the time some of these things were posted.


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## quoting_mungo (Apr 21, 2018)

lupi900 said:


> Why bring better arguments when you just dodge them as usual?. I got modded a year by you on that talking about old staff as witch hunting. But suddenly its okay because of your beef with a furry blog?, which is off site drama by the way fall under the same rules too.
> 
> Who is the real child here?.


I sincerely have no idea what you're trying to communicate, here. Beyond the obvious personal attack. I've not called you a child, so I'd appreciate if you'd show me the same respect. Seriously. Just try to write a post that makes sense and doesn't contain personal attacks.



Kyr said:


> It is, at it's core, about the principles of free speech and the possibility for civil, adult disagreement. That's what i believe it's about anyway, and that's why i support it.


I'm sorry to say "we're just about free speech" is also a well-documented entry point for alt-right recruitment. It's a false dichotomy, as it implies the "other" is against free speech, and "free speech" is one of those automatic feel-good buzzwords for most people in the western world. You are of course welcome to make your own choices; I can't tell you what to do, though I can tell you that I think you're making a risky choice at best by choosing the company you have. 

This is someone else who didn't think the company he was getting into was all bad folks - I really recommend giving the whole thread a read: 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967027082537721856
The problem with accepting certain kinds of speech as "just speech" is that language shapes the way we think. It's absolutely healthy to be able to disagree with people without attacking them. It's absolutely healthy to be able to interact civilly with people you dislike. But when you start normalizing slurs (in derogatory use, as opposed to reclaiming them, which uses them positively), using legitimate neuropsychological, developmental, or physical disabilities as insults, or otherwise start acting as though words cannot cause harm, you're going against the verbal equivalent of that old adage of "my right to swing my fist stops at your nose" or however it goes. In a small group where everyone knows everyone and can respect each other's boundaries, you can permit yourself a bit more leeway with off-color jokes, but that has to be a conscious choice. 

I realize things can easily be taken out of context, and that is why my reasoning and judgment is based primarily on public behavior. That public behavior simply isn't very flattering.


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## lupi900 (Apr 21, 2018)

Yeah fuck this I'm done in this thread, getting sick of going around circles over a fucking furry blog. 4 are block since my patience is gone on arguing with total assholes that can't even back up anything they say without insults.


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## Yakamaru (Apr 21, 2018)

quoting_mungo said:


> I'm sorry to say "we're just about free speech" is also a well-documented entry point for alt-right recruitment. It's a false dichotomy, as it implies the "other" is against free speech, and "free speech" is one of those automatic feel-good buzzwords for most people in the western world. You are of course welcome to make your own choices; I can't tell you what to do, though I can tell you that I think you're making a risky choice at best by choosing the company you have.
> 
> This is someone else who didn't think the company he was getting into was all bad folks - I really recommend giving the whole thread a read:
> 
> ...


Well, you are free to be as politically correct as much or as little as you want. What you are not free to do is to tell others what to speak or how to speak it, let alone where. Especially not on a platform or a place you have no authority let alone consent or power on. That is not free speech. That is compelled speech. No one likes having others telling them what to say, how to say it or where to say it.

What may be derogatory to you may not be to someone else. You can't use the subjective application of language as an argument. They can merely disagree with you and you end up being unable to do anything about it.

And from personal experience you are wrong about AltFurry as a "movement". Though like everyone else who say stuff in a public space, they will face social backlash and criticism. 

I will have to respectfully disagree, love.


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## SSJ3Mewtwo (Apr 21, 2018)

Due to multiple reports having been received about this thread involving links to private conversations, I have to close it up.  That comes far to close to the line of crossing FA/FAF's rules regarding phishing.


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