# Any sword owners?



## whiteskunk (Mar 12, 2009)

Does anyone own a sword(s)? I'm seeking advice/input on what type of stone is best for sharpening. I have a katana with a slight edge but could be better. The blade is ss. Would that be a factor in the stone type?

Anyway, what coarse grade would be best?


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## foxmusk (Mar 12, 2009)

i use a whetstone (or wetstone. i really don't know the spelling). it's a pain to do, but it works. i dunno where you can buy them in your area, but they're not too hard to come across. just look for a weapon store. even replica weapon stands have things like that. a flea market maybe.


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## lilEmber (Mar 12, 2009)

If your blade is SS, and I'm guessing 420 J2, you shouldn't sharpen it.
You can't use it, and it's display only, sharpening it is pointless and if you use it, you'll probably get hurt and break your sword too.

If you want to have a usable sword, get a real one. If you can't afford those, get a carbon steel sword. It's more expensive, but you won't break it.

Also, you need several types of stones for different things, you should always keep it well oiled and cleaned, and stainless steel still stains and rusts, don't let the name fool you.

I own one sword, and many knives; my uncle makes knives as well.
If you want a sharpening stone I would suggest bringing it to somebody or purchasing those auto-sharpeners, you'll mess it up otherwise.


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## Uro (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a mid size full tang katana. It's balanced very nicely and I can operate it pretty good with one hand. I want another one now haha.


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 13, 2009)

ME, ME, ME!!!!!


True, high carbon steel is what you want.

Unless you have the cash to buy a true japanese katana (layered steel, folded for strength, low carbon core), your best bet is to just by a nice quality high carbon blade.


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## Bambi (Mar 13, 2009)

Sword, Pike, Machete, and Bush Axe owner here. :3

The Bush Axe is a bitch to sharpen, but its brutal when prepared. I mainly use it for cutting broad swaths of weeds and briar -- heh, I don't even spare the small trees that decorate that back 50' of my families lawn.

The Machete is slightly overrated -- I wouldn't recommend getting one unless it is durable, or made from a very tough steel (bought mine at Lowes -- get yours at the Army Surplus just to be safe.)

The Pike I got is just for decoration, and wouldn't use it for anything else except a Halloween decoration. Sword on the other hand? Cut into my foot while using it. Story was, I had just stepped out of bed late one night to go use the restroom when I stepped on the sword accidentally. Took it like a champ, didn't need stitches, and learned to not trust my own short term memorey, but there was a significant amount of blood and entertainment for awhile. 

Rule: Keep your weapons safe, Pee-El-Zee.


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## Rilvor (Mar 13, 2009)

Canesword, but no help for you OP as I have no reason to sharpen it.


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## Irreverent (Mar 13, 2009)

Since I Fence......on the dry side, I have a couple of FIE  Visconte-gripped Foils, one (maybe two, can't remember) leather wrapped Ã‰pÃ©es and a Negrini full tang Sabre that is a delight to swing.  For electrics, I've just got a Foil.  All maraging stainless steel and none of them are sharp!  These swords get used, and dead opponents are frowned on.....red card for sure. 

I do have a growing collection of late-1800's sword Bayonets, mostly St. Etienne Gras, Lebel, Berthier or Greenwoods.  Working on collecting the rifles to go with them too.


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## ToeClaws (Mar 13, 2009)

Aye - I have a hand-made Irish armor-piercing sword.  A real sword, not some stainless steel display piece, at that.  The sword is the second of only 2 made by the blacksmith, hammered out of 1050 armor-class steel and set it a brass pommel with leather banding for grip.  The hilt has a hand engraving of the pagan battle goddess Morrigan.  I'll have to get a picture of it to post up later when I'm back home.

Edit - this is it: http://download.lavadomefive.com/members/BigClawz/TC/tc-irish-broadsword.jpg


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 13, 2009)

whiteskunk said:


> Does anyone own a sword(s)? I'm seeking advice/input on what type of stone is best for sharpening. I have a katana with a slight edge but could be better. The blade is ss. Would that be a factor in the stone type?
> 
> Anyway, what coarse grade would be best?



Well, it also depends upon how much you paid for it.  If it was an expensive sword, I recommend you have someone who knows what they are doing sharpen it, as untrained hand can ruin a blade.  If it was just of moderate cost, I think you could use any higher quality whetstone to hone it.


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## Riesin (Mar 13, 2009)

I would try to be unique, and get a sword made entirely out of graphite. That way, it can double as a pencil.


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## Fox Glove (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a wakizashi but it's for display only.

I have a feeling yours might be too, OP. Stainless steel is usually decoration only. Not much you can do about that.


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## Kit H. Ruppell (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a handmade spring steel "prop" katana, a shitty plastic-sheathed stainless decorative one, a small khukri, a pouch of throwing knives, a stainless 30' hunting knife, a claw-shaped folding knife, a stamped, blackened combat knife, an antique decorative tulwar (it screws together), and a matching curved dagger with a tiger-head pommel (that's in my hand right now). I want to get a real damascus tulwar- those are pretty and very sharp.


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## Kellan Meig'h (Mar 13, 2009)

I use a Lanskey system to sharpen all my edged weapons. It takes a bit to learn to use it properly but it makes an edge that no 'by stone and eye only' process can rival. It just doesn't work for my Dane axe or my throwing axes

http://www.lanskysharpeners.com/index.php

BTW, all of my 'working' swords/foils/dirks/sgian dubh/hatchets/axes/etc. are all carbon or damascus steel and razor sharp. Too numerous to list. Some of my display stuff is Stainless Steel but all of the 'for show' things are kept dull now.

As far as 'display' weapons, it's probably safer not to sharpen them due to the fact that most people will 'take them down, check them out' without asking if they're sharp first. Had to take a friend to the hospital after he damn near removed three fingers from his left hand with a Katana, 'testing' the edge while I wasn't looking.

_Kellan, the old warhorse_


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## Jack (Mar 13, 2009)

i have a few pretty cool swords!
2 broke recently tho.


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## ToeClaws (Mar 13, 2009)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> http://www.lanskysharpeners.com/index.php



Oooo... this looks promising.  I've wanted to put an edge on mine for years, but given that it's a one of a kind real blade, I didn't want to remotely attempt it without something I could be sure would do a very good job of it.



Kellan Meig'h said:


> As far as 'display' weapons, it's probably safer not to sharpen them due to the fact that most people will 'take them down, check them out' without asking if they're sharp first. Had to take a friend to the hospital after he damn near removed three fingers from his left hand with a Katana, 'testing' the edge while I wasn't looking.



Oi, yes - I've seen people do that all the time.  So many display pieces are either not sharp or poorly sharpened that they can get away with it, but a properly edged blade is devastatingly sharp, and can do serious damage even with a light touch because they are as sharp as a medical scalpel.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 13, 2009)

whiteskunk said:


> Does anyone own a sword(s)? I'm seeking advice/input on what type of stone is best for sharpening. I have a katana with a slight edge but could be better. The blade is ss. Would that be a factor in the stone type?
> 
> Anyway, what coarse grade would be best?



well first the question is what kind of stainless it is and if the edge actually has been hardened enough to be real sharp. a soft blade simply cant get to a razor sharpness and honestly its likely to be something you cant do much about. some steels simply cant be hardened enough. so it could be that whoever made that sword was cheep and didnt use good steel, or they were just lazy and didnt harden it. 

for sharpening i dont use any "system" or diamond crazy shit, i just use a regular honing stone. actually i do it a lot at work with the same hard smooth stones that i work nicks and burrs out of rifles and machine guns with. for ultra sharpness in a good piece of steel you need to take the micro burs off with a rough piece of fabric or a piece of leather once your done with the stone(putting a little water on the stone also improves its effectiveness).

*shrug* blacksmithing was one of my nerd hobbies before i joined the corps


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## Not A Fox (Mar 13, 2009)

Why look like some simpleton obsessed over japan by owning a Katana when you can own something that makes you look like a connoisseur?

Like these, for instance:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3549

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3501

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3452

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3492

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=3567

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3274

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3361

Also:

http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=SH1012

http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=SH2074

http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=SH2386


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## lilEmber (Mar 13, 2009)

Kellan Meig'h said:


> I use a Lanskey system to sharpen all my edged weapons. It takes a bit to learn to use it properly but it makes an edge that no 'by stone and eye only' process can rival. It just doesn't work for my Dane axe or my throwing axes
> 
> http://www.lanskysharpeners.com/index.php
> 
> ...



"damascus steel" No, they're not.
Damascus steel is lost, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to own a actual Damascus steel blade, simply because NOBODY knows how to make the steel, it's impossible. The secret was never shared past the smiths at the time of the crusades and it died with them, it's never been copied properly. You sir, have a fake. Unless you're a millionaire.


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## Lyrihl (Mar 13, 2009)

I do have a sword, but it's a Butterfly blade and is only for display. It's horribly balanced, double edged, and can't cut anything, despite the fact that it feels better than razor-sharp.

I can't help you with sharpening, but I do know that some swords seem blunt, but are increadably sharp. Try running your hand across the edge (not the safest thing to do, I know) to see if it needs any sharpening.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 13, 2009)

> "damascus steel" No, they're not.
> Damascus steel is lost, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to own a actual Damascus steel blade, simply because NOBODY knows how to make the steel, it's impossible. The secret was never shared past the smiths at the time of the crusades and it died with them, it's never been copied properly. You sir, have a fake. Unless you're a millionaire.



in this day in age damascus refers to pattern welded steel, which is EVERYWHERE and actually not too expensive. now you might be referring to wootz steel that involved chemistry that we havent been able to reproduce, but the look, and even the QUALITY of the blade has been reproduced, just not the exact same steel. hell, in reality modern alloy can make better swords then the crude things of old so if you get a good pattern welded steel blade it can indeed be superior to a wootz blade of old in every way. lol i actually thought that damascus steel was that lost treasure too, when really it was a secret style of smithing that we can surpass and still produce the beautiful look with modern alloy. 

to this day i want to pattern weld myself a slender supple steel blade with a certain style of pattern welding and name it "mountain mist"...... but i gotta rebuild my old forge to even begin, lol. that and pattern welding is an art that is well beyond my skill, its very likely that i'd burn the steel trying.....

http://www.atar.com/old/index.php?M...id=4&PAGE_user_op=view_page&module=pagemaster

example of pattern welded blades.


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## lilEmber (Mar 13, 2009)

Don't call it Damascus steel, if it's not Damascus steel. Simple as that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel



> It used to be believed that Damascus steel was made using pattern welding because the layering revealed by etching a pattern-welded blade in acid is similar to that of Damascus steel.
> 
> Pattern welded steel is commonly sold today as "Damascus steel", though it appears that the original Damascus steel was not created with that technique. Pattern welded Damascus is made out of several types of steel and iron slices, which are then welded together to form a billet. The patterns vary depending on what the smith does to the billet. The billet is drawn out and folded until the desired number of layers are formed. The end result, if done well, bears a strong resemblance to the surface appearance of a true Damascus blade, though the internal structure is completely dissimilar.



Just because it's the same QUALITY doesn't make it the same steel, hell Carbon-Titanium Steel is much stronger, but it doesn't make it more rare, more expensive, or in a sword collectors/historians mind, the same thing.

It's like making a Katana using a machine, it's not the same as hand.
There have been many, many attempts at reproduction of this steel, some have come close, none have got it right or exactly like it yet.

So no, he just has a pattern welded blade, in that case. It still wont have that legendary strength or sharpness.


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## whiteskunk (Mar 13, 2009)

Okay. It seems everyone is missing the freaking point! I was asking about sharpening stones!
Open your eyes.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 13, 2009)

> There have been many, many attempts at reproduction of this steel, some have come close, none have got it right or exactly like it yet.
> 
> So no, he just has a pattern welded blade, in that case. It still wont have that legendary strength or sharpness.



well, i did say that we never have made anything exactly like it. however modern alloy can surpass classic wootz damascus. its silly to think otherwise. its like saying ya people with a hammer, some glass and a fire can outdo the work of modern chemistry and the steel industry that can precisely control the mineral content of the steel to get exactly what it wanted. such a blade now, just as then is an incredible achievement of science and craftsmanship however.



> Okay. It seems everyone is missing the freaking point! I was asking about sharpening stones!
> Open your eyes.



get a plain old smooth honing stone, sprinkle some water on it and work the blade. then finish up with a piece of leather. 

http://www.nextag.com/sharpening-stones/search-html

dont bother with the fancy diamond filled bullshit, a plain old honing stone will work just fine.


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## lilEmber (Mar 13, 2009)

whiteskunk said:


> Okay. It seems everyone is missing the freaking point! I was asking about sharpening stones!
> Open your eyes.



I already answered you, if you want a good stone get a whetstone. That 420 steel is garbage, would be just better to get a auto sharpener or diamond or something.


And ceacar99, just because it's better, doesn't make it the same. And it's still stronger than anything under the most expensive and hardest to get metals, way stronger than carbon steel, steel, and titanium; and it's light, too.
It's possible to make something better, but it's still not the same. :\


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## BigPuppy_Stuart (Mar 13, 2009)

I own several. But i have not sharpened any of them some of them are made of metal that will not hold an edge.


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## Aden (Mar 13, 2009)

>..<

Don't sharpen or try to use a Stainless Steel sword. I couldn't care less about your well-being, but the people around you sure don't deserve being hurt via snapping blade death projectile.


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## ToeClaws (Mar 13, 2009)

Darn - I thought I took pics of it more recently with the newer camera, but just have some older ones - ah well.  This is the sword I mentioned earlier:

http://download.lavadomefive.com/members/BigClawz/TC/tc-irish-broadsword.jpg


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## Surgat (Mar 13, 2009)

*PSA*

Swords will fucking cut you wide open.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RpbaUU7NI


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## lilEmber (Mar 13, 2009)

*Re: PSA*



Surgat said:


> Swords will fucking cut you wide open.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RpbaUU7NI



Wow, that's awesome.
I...I-I didn't know....


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## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

*Re: PSA*



Surgat said:


> Swords will fucking cut you wide open.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RpbaUU7NI



I lol'd.


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## Lulu_Neko_Lucy (Mar 14, 2009)

I have a standard english fencing sword (not the practice rods with the rounded tips) but I don't use it or practice with it, sorry. But if you actually get an answer I would be very interested in what it is


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## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

I want a wakizashi.


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## whiteskunk (Mar 14, 2009)

Lulu_Neko_Lucy said:


> I have a standard english fencing sword (not the practice rods with the rounded tips) but I don't use it or practice with it, sorry. But if you actually get an answer I would be very interested in what it is




Will do.

The only other sword I have is a display non usable Scottish for the annual Highland games.


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## Greasemunky (Mar 14, 2009)

Guns > swords.

But, swords are still fucking awesome, even though all I have is a shitty fishing knife.
Mainly because I live in a rather safe area.


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## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Greasemunky said:


> Guns > swords.
> 
> But, swords are still fucking awesome, even though all I have is a shitty fishing knife.
> Mainly because I live in a rather safe area.



Tell that to the Ronin sword used in MGS series by the cyborg ninja's! >:


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## virus (Mar 14, 2009)

I have an unsharpened handmade claymore. Not battle ready for obvious reasons.. such a large blade is hazardous to women pets and children. But if "that" day ever comes I plan on sharpening it. FOR THE MOTHERLAND


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## Doubler (Mar 14, 2009)

I have a cheap sword for show. It looks nicely on a wall.
Most certainly not sharpened. That would serve no purpose but to invite trouble.


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## Irreverent (Mar 14, 2009)

Lulu_Neko_Lucy said:


> I have a standard english fencing sword



What is that?  I'm not familiar with that term.  A rapier?  Court sword?  I sport fence, so I don't keep up with historical fencing that much.


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## Lulu_Neko_Lucy (Mar 14, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> What is that?  I'm not familiar with that term.  A rapier?  Court sword?  I sport fence, so I don't keep up with historical fencing that much.



It's a court sword, but I am planning on getting a rapier soon too, that one I will practice with.


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## Irreverent (Mar 14, 2009)

Lulu_Neko_Lucy said:


> It's a court sword, but I am planning on getting a rapier soon too, that one I will practice with.



Ah, cool.  Thanks!

I've been temped to pick up a rapier and buckle and start swashbuckling.  That way, I can have "tennis elbow" in both arms. :razz:


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## Lulu_Neko_Lucy (Mar 14, 2009)

Irreverent said:


> Ah, cool.  Thanks!
> 
> I've been temped to pick up a rapier and buckle and start swashbuckling.  That way, I can have "tennis elbow" in both arms. :razz:



lol yeah it definitely helps, though I don't play tennis unless forced XD


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## Werevixen (Mar 14, 2009)

A want a Flemish broadsword, but they're hard to get around here.


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## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

whiteskunk said:


> Does anyone own a sword(s)? I'm seeking advice/input on what type of stone is best for sharpening. I have a katana with a slight edge but could be better. The blade is ss. Would that be a factor in the stone type?
> 
> Anyway, what coarse grade would be best?


I own dozens of swords.  Stainless sharpens easily enough, but it doesn't hold an edge well.  Blue steel works best for that, just be sure to oil the steel after you've sharpened it or used it and you don't have to worry about rust.

Sharpening stones are OK for working an edge onto a very dull sword.  But to get a really keen edge, once you have a workable edge on the sword you sharpen the sword with another sword!  Seriously.  You can get both of those swords sharp enough to do surgery with that way.

A giant word of caution: unless you really know what you're doing, an uber-sharp sword is a very big safety hazard.  And unless you're going to behead someone, you don't need an edge quite that sharp.  So I'd stick with a stone just to get a workable edge for any sword.  Just about any stone will do.  If the edge is really dull, start with a coarse stone then switch to a fine one to hone the edge.

But sharpening one blade against another is a very smart thing to do with kitchen knives or camping knives.  Very sharp knives are much safer than dull ones.  They're much less likely to slip, and you can carve even the toughest steak as if you're cutting hot butter.  And if you do slip and cut yourself, the cut is VERY clean.  A butterfly bandage and you might not even have a scar.

And yeah, this sharpening technique is hardly a new one:
*Proverbs 27:17*
As *iron* *sharpens* *iron*,  so one man sharpens another.

That proverb is roughly 2500 years old.  So for the last 2500+ years, you can bet people have been sharpening their swords this way.


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## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

Aden said:


> >..<
> 
> Don't sharpen or try to use a Stainless Steel sword. I couldn't care less about your well-being, but the people around you sure don't deserve being hurt via snapping blade death projectile.


It depends on why you're using & your skill level.  Sword fighting?  Oi!  NEVER sword fight with a sharpened sword, regardless of what it's made of!

Cutting bamboo to feel like a samauri?  Just make sure everyone else stands well clear.  Because, yeah, the blade very well can snap if you hit it at the wrong angle.

I own some combat-ready swords, one of which can hold an edge (not that I'd ever put an edge on it.)  All are blue steel, and with the exception of the one that can hold an edge, the blades are very THICK for a reason.


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## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

I heard that high-carbon steel swords were some of the best.


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## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

Ratte said:


> I heard that high-carbon steel swords were some of the best.


They are.  When under stress, they tend to flex but not break, and they're STRONG.

Stainless doesn't flex well.  You put stainless under enough stress & it simply snaps.

I like blue steel.  It's high carbon steel with a chemical coating that protects against rust better than galvanized steel... and it simply looks cool.  But honing an edge takes that coating off of the edge, so you will have to oil the steel.  But properly cared for blue steel holds a razor's edge for eons.


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## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

Telnac said:


> They are.  When under stress, they tend to flex but not break, and they're STRONG.
> 
> Stainless doesn't flex well.  You put stainless under enough stress & it simply snaps.
> 
> I like blue steel.  It's high carbon steel with a chemical coating that protects against rust better than galvanized steel... and it simply looks cool.  But honing an edge takes that coating off of the edge, so you will have to oil the steel.  But properly cared for blue steel holds a razor's edge for eons.



That's pretty sweet.  One of the things you want in sword is the longevity of the sharpness of the blade, unless it's just for show.

And here steel had a reputation for bending, not breaking.  That's why iron stopped being used so much.


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## Gavrill (Mar 14, 2009)

I collect cane swords, and I've bought this one and this one.

Yes, that is a real spider.


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 14, 2009)

I keep my katana nearby and my Wakizashi under my pillow.  Who needs a gun at close range, when you can just cut someone in half.


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## Gavrill (Mar 14, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> I keep my katana nearby and my Wakizashi under my pillow.  Who needs a gun at close range, when you can just cut someone in half.


Someone has watched too much anime.


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## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Telnac said:


> I own dozens of swords.  Stainless sharpens easily enough, but it doesn't hold an edge well.  Blue steel works best for that, just be sure to oil the steel after you've sharpened it or used it and you don't have to worry about rust.


No, actually carbon steel works better.



Telnac said:


> Sharpening stones are OK for working an edge onto a very dull sword.  But to get a really keen edge, once you have a workable edge on the sword you sharpen the sword with another sword!  Seriously.  You can get both of those swords sharp enough to do surgery with that way.


No, that doesn't work.



Telnac said:


> A giant word of caution: unless you really know what you're doing, an uber-sharp sword is a very big safety hazard.  And unless you're going to behead someone, you don't need an edge quite that sharp.  So I'd stick with a stone just to get a workable edge for any sword.  Just about any stone will do.  If the edge is really dull, start with a coarse stone then switch to a fine one to hone the edge.


Don't touch the edge? Even on a dull sword.



Telnac said:


> But sharpening one blade against another is a very smart thing to do with kitchen knives or camping knives.  Very sharp knives are much safer than dull ones.  They're much less likely to slip, and you can carve even the toughest steak as if you're cutting hot butter.  And if you do slip and cut yourself, the cut is VERY clean.  A butterfly bandage and you might not even have a scar.


Again, a sword can not sharpen another sword. That's Hollywood myth, showing somebody slicing two swords together. Perhaps you're getting a placebo effect, thinking it's sharper, or simply never did it yourself.



Telnac said:


> And yeah, this sharpening technique is hardly a new one:
> *Proverbs 27:17*
> As *iron* *sharpens* *iron*,  so one man sharpens another.
> 
> That proverb is roughly 2500 years old.  So for the last 2500+ years, you can bet people have been sharpening their swords this way.


I don't trust Genesis, the beginning of the book.


The way you get a weapon the sharpest it can be is with many different stones and whetstones, getting lower and lower grits until you get to the finest stones, which are incredibly expensive and rare. At that stage, you could cut a rock in two.

Furthermore, blue steel -is- stainless steel, just more rust protection. It's weak and it's not a metal that can hold an edge, or be sharped properly. It will bend easily, and break even easier. I could bend your sword with my bare hand if it wasn't sharpened.



Tycho Rass said:


> I keep my katana nearby and my Wakizashi under my pillow.  Who needs a gun at close range, when you can just cut someone in half.


Swords don't cut people in half. Swords don't work in-doors very well. A combat knife is much more superior in close quarters.


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## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

Misfit said:


> I collect cane swords, and I've bought this one and this one.
> 
> Yes, that is a real spider.



Cane swords = win

How expensive are they, generally?


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## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

Misfit said:


> Someone has watched too much anime.


Yeah, under a pillow is a bit excessive!  Hope you don't toss & turn in bed!  Otherwise, have fun explaining how you accidentally unsheathed your sword & cut your nose off!

I have a wakizashi on top of a bookshelf near my bed that I grab in case I hear a strange noise that I want to investigate (which is usually one of my cats getting into trouble.)  I used to have a hunting x-bow in the closet in case I clearly heard someone actually breaking into my house.   (It broke a short while ago, tho.   )

I only had someone break into my place once.  Dude ran off when he realized he'd made so much noise, so he was gone before I got my x-bow. When the cops showed up, they laughed when they saw the x-bow and said the crook would probably shit a gold brick if he saw me holding it.


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## Gavrill (Mar 14, 2009)

Ratte said:


> Cane swords = win
> 
> How expensive are they, generally?


Small (dagger-like) swords run from 30-80$, while the larger ones can be up to 150$, depending on where you buy them, the quality, etc. I've seen jeweled cane swords sell for up to 500$.



Telnac said:


> Yeah, under a pillow is a bit excessive!  Hope you don't toss & turn in bed!  Otherwise, have fun explaining how you accidentally unsheathed your sword & cut your nose off!
> 
> I have a wakizashi on top of a bookshelf near my bed that I grab in case I hear a strange noise that I want to investigate (which is usually one of my cats getting into trouble.)  I used to have a hunting x-bow in the closet in case I clearly heard someone actually breaking into my house.   (It broke a short while ago, tho.   )
> 
> I only had someone break into my place once.  Dude ran off when he realized he'd made so much noise, so he was gone before I got my x-bow. When the cops showed up, they laughed when they saw the x-bow and said the crook would probably shit a gold brick if he saw me holding it.


I keep a cane sword in my room, and a pocket knife on my dresser. I keep all guns I have locked up unless I'm hunting or cleaning them. 

I feel like you can take a little more liberty with knives, since it's rather hard to kill yourself accidentally with it (unless you're some sort of completely dysfunctional being).

I've never had a break in though. I live in a relatively safe area. My cane swords and the like are mostly decorative.


----------



## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> No, actually carbon steel works better.
> 
> 
> No, that doesn't work.
> ...



???  First, blue steel is not stainless.  I have a blue steel sword & a blue steel knife.  Both are sharp & have held their edge as long as I've owned them (the latter being close to 20 years.)  Blue steel is most often carbon steel with a chemical coating.  Yeah, you can make blue steel from stainless but it's done for cosmetic reasons, not functional ones.

This describes how blue steel is made: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel)

Second, I very frequently sharpen knives together.  And it works VERY WELL.  And a placebo effect?  WTF?  You can't slice through tough meat like hot butter from a placebo effect.

All of my knives are sharpened this way (except the one serrated knife that I have; those are a bitch to sharpen.)  And I've done it using a knife to sharpen my wakizashi.  Not any of my larger swords, though.  They don't need to be THAT sharp.  Yeah, I use a stone if the blade is outright dull, but to hone the edge, nothing works better than steel.  Yeah, sharpening two claymores or other such long swords that way would be more than a bit awkward (and dangerous) but honing the edge of two shorter swords together would be relatively safe & incredibly effective.  And for a long sword, I'd hone the edge of a sword with the edge of a knife.

And no, I don't touch the edge of my swords.  A good way to test the edge of a sword is to see how well it marks some scrap leather.  That's what I do, anyway.  I know there are million other ways to test it.

Lastly, the wakizashi was designed for indoor fighting, which is why that's the sword that's near my bed... and why that's the sword that I keep so sharp.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Slicing through meat isn't hard. And actually, metal on metal doesn't sharpen. It can hone a already sharpened sword back if you have a honing metal, but not another sword. It does not work. Quote a source, that isn't fiction.

And read your own links, please. You got ripped off if somebody told you blue steel is strong, or is carbon steel.


			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel) said:
			
		

> *Bluing only works on steel or stainless steel parts for protecting against corrosion*. Because it changes the Fe into Fe3O4, it does *not work on non-ferrous material*. *Aluminum and polymer parts are largely unaffected by bluing*; no protection against corrosion is provided by bluing processes on them, although uneven staining of the aluminum and polymer parts can be caused by attempts at bluing.]





			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel) said:
			
		

> Bluing is most commonly used by gun manufacturers, gunsmiths and gun owners to *improve the cosmetic appearance*, provide *limited resistance against rust* of the firearm and reduce glare to the eyes of the shooter when looking down the barrel of the gun. All blued parts still need to be properly oiled to prevent rust. Bluing, being a chemical conversion coating,* is not as robust against wear and corrosion resistance as plated coatings*, and is typically no thicker than 0.0001 inches (2.5 micrometres).





			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel) said:
			
		

> Bluing is also used for providing *coloring* for steel parts of fine clocks and other fine metalwork.



Doesn't work on carbon.
Doesn't work on (or at least well on) anything other than pure steel or stainless steel.
Doesn't make it stronger, sharper, etc etc etc.

You're speaking to a weaponologist, of sorts. 

*Edit:* Also, having a blade kept sharp for a long time doesn't mean anything...if you use it, even Carbon Titanium Steel will dull, if you don't use it, it will corrode. If you keep it well oiled, sharpened, and it's made out of stainless-steel that is blued, it will keep a edge for a long time. Having a edge for a period of time isn't a test; having a edge after a strength and sharpness test, is a test.

*Edit Mark Two*: You also seem to be confused with honing and sharpening; honing is to hone a already sharpened blade after using it and wearing it down a bit, it's quick and simple and is just adjusting the edge of the blade back to the center because it shifts from use. Sharpening takes longer and puts the original edge back on, unlike honing which only postpones the need to sharpen.

Honing alone will not sharpen, and sharpening will surpass and honing.


----------



## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Slicing through meat isn't hard. And actually, metal on metal doesn't sharpen. It can hone a already sharpened sword back if you have a honing metal, but not another sword. It does not work. Quote a source, that isn't fiction.
> 
> And read your own links, please. You got ripped off if somebody told you blue steel is strong, or is carbon steel.
> 
> ...



Bluing works on carbon steel because carbon steel IS steel.  Steel is an alloy of iron & carbon.  "Carbon steel" has a higher content of carbon, but it still over 95% iron (with possibly some other alloying agents mixed in.)

Blue steel keeps the blade relatively rust free so you don't have to constantly care for it.  I never claimed the steel was stronger, only that it protects carbon steel.  It's a coating.  Period.

And slicing through tough meat with a dull knife is VERY hard.  On more than a few SCA camping events, I've taken someone else's dull knife that couldn't cut through whatever meat we were eating, sharpened it on one of my knives and suddenly their knife could cut through the meat like it was hot butter.  That's the reason I keep coming back to that example: because it's one I've seen personally!  Don't believe me?  Take a dull knife and try it yourself!

The Bible reference was given to denote the age of this technique.  You need not believe in the Bible's teachings to acknowledge that the proverbs are old in the extreme, which was the only reason I quoted it.

As for a source, I read about this technique back when I was a teen and have used it for close to years.  I've tried various stones & sharpening rods and have found nothing gets knives remotely as sharp as sharpening one against another.  I don't know what book it was in, but it was a book about knife & sword care in medieval Europe.

And I've studied weapons as part of being in the SCA for many years, so you're not the only part-time weaponologist here.


----------



## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> *Edit Mark Two*: You also seem to be confused with honing and sharpening; honing is to hone a already sharpened blade after using it and wearing it down a bit, it's quick and simple and is just adjusting the edge of the blade back to the center because it shifts from use. Sharpening takes longer and puts the original edge back on, unlike honing which only postpones the need to sharpen.
> 
> Honing alone will not sharpen, and sharpening will surpass and honing.



No, I'm not confusing the two.  I've said the way to sharpen a truly dull blade is to start with a stone then switch to another blade.  Yes, I may have used the word "sharpen" for both terms, but I believe I've made it quite clear that I'm talking about putting a *VERY *sharp edge on a knife or sword that's previously been sharpened.

Taking an unsharpened blade, or a very dull blade that hasn't been sharpened in years, and putting an edge on it takes a coarse stone and a LOT of elbow grease.  Only after the blade has an edge will honing it with another blade help matters any.  It's the finishing touch, not how you start sharpening anything.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Carbon steel isn't steel. It's carbon steel, it doesn't stick properly to it compared to stainless or normal steel. It even says in the wiki link YOU used.

Give me a source, or go by the one you already used which *proves that you are, without a doubt, incorrect.*

Read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpening
Honing isn't sharpening. It's merely adjusting the edge back to prolong its sharpness before having to re-sharpen with a stone.


			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpening said:
			
		

> The edge may be steeled by passing the blade against a hard metal "steel" (which may be made of ceramic) which plastically deforms and straightens the material of the blade's edge which may have been rolled over irregularly in use, but not enough to need complete resharpening.



You have -no- idea what you're talking about, stop embarrassing yourself; you're not a moron, don't act like one by attempting to dig a bigger hole.


----------



## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

Then what's carbon-steel?


----------



## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Carbon steel isn't steel. It's carbon steel, it doesn't stick properly to it compared to stainless or normal steel. It even says in the wiki link YOU used.
> 
> Give me a source, or go by the one you already used which *proves that you are without a doubt incorrect.*
> 
> ...



Whatever, re: the terms "honing" vs "sharpening."  That's not a debate I really care about so I'll concede it.  I use the terms interchangeably; you don't.  So be it, for purposes of clarity I'll use the terms the way you do. 

As for carbon steel... you couldn't be more wrong.  Carbon steel *IS REGULAR STEEL.* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

The bluing process works because it bonds with the *IRON *in steel, which for even ultra-high carbon steel is 98% *IRON*.  If the presence of carbon would make bluing fail for carbon steel, then it would *UTTERLY FAIL* for stainless steel, which has far less iron than any grade of carbon steel.

And how is my quote from the Bible making the case for sharpening one knife with another any weaker?  As I said before, that was only to illustrate how old that technique is.  Saying "iron sharpens iron" is hardly like saying that God created the Universe.  Just because you disagree with the teachings of the Bible doesn't make this proverb any less historically significant.

If I had the book I found this in, I'd quote it to you.  But I don't, and every Google search just gives me a billion websites hawking knife sharpening tools.

But what the point in demanding a source when I have a much better way to prove my point?  *TRY IT YOURSELF. * It's not hard!  Just treat the edge of one knife as though it were a whetstone to hone the edge of the other knife, then switch the two knives and repeat the process.  (Edit: don't try this with serrated knives... only ones with a straight edge.)

If you still think I'm full of shit, so be it.  You can keep your kitchen of dull knives; I'll happily use my honed edge ones (and my honed wakizashi, which was the origin of this debate in the first place.)


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Ratte said:


> Then what's carbon-steel?


Go you.


			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel said:
			
		

> Carbon steel, also called plain carbon steel, is steel where the main alloying constituent is carbon. The AISI defines carbon steel as: "Steel is considered to be carbon steel when no minimum content is specified or required for chromium, cobalt, columbium [niobium], molybdenum, nickel, titanium, tungsten, vanadium or zirconium, or any other element to be added to obtain a desired alloying effect; when the specified minimum for copper does not exceed 0.40 per cent; or when the maximum content specified for any of the following elements does not exceed the percentages noted: manganese 1.65, silicon 0.60, copper 0.60."





			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel said:
			
		

> Steel is an alloy consisting mostly of iron, with a carbon content between 0.2% and *0.30%* by weight


The wiki page is wrong, it says 2.14% instead of 0.30%, because it includes carbon steel. After 0.3% carbon in steel it shifts to low-carbon steel, up to higher percentages of carbon making it higher qualities of carbon steel.


			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel said:
			
		

> Medium carbon steel: Approximately 0.30â€“0.59% carbon content. Balances ductility and strength and has good wear resistance; used for large parts, forging and automotive components.
> 
> High carbon steel: Approximately 0.6â€“0.99% carbon content. Very strong, used for springs and high-strength wires.
> 
> Ultra-high carbon steel: Approximately 1.0â€“2.0% carbon content.



There's a large difference in the two, actually. Large enough for the blueing effect to not bond the same. And even so, blueing doesn't do -anything- other than making it look better. It doesn't make the edge last longer, or more resilient in any way.


----------



## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Go you.



Fuck you, I was just asking a question.


----------



## ceacar99 (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Carbon steel isn't steel. It's carbon steel, it doesn't stick properly to it compared to stainless or normal steel. It even says in the wiki link YOU used.
> 
> Give me a source, or go by the one you already used which *proves that you are, without a doubt, incorrect.*
> 
> ...



....
....
...

steel is an alloy of iron and another element. generally when you refer to steel, it is carbon steel because its an alloy between iron and carbon. however, stainless steels have added minerals to work as rustproofing, but it still gets its strength from carbon.

if you have a steel sword IT WILL BE STRENGTHENED BY CARBON. carbon steel is a general term referring to basic run the mill steel. further the name comes from the fact that the carbon is the most significant element other then iron in the alloy. almost all of the steel you will find can be referred to as carbon steel.

if what you stated above about blueing chemcials is true then you couldnt take your rifle or pistol in to your local gunsmith to have the thing blued, because again even in stainless steels carbon is a significant element. check this out

http://www.arcraftplasma.com/welding/weldingdata/metalstd.htm

so lets take the steel 4140. its a chromium alloy steel(stainless), and has a .4% carbon content middle ground. carbon content in steel is so absolutely fucking important that the number system always tells how much carbon is present. your steel will have carbon in it. its just the fact of life bud. if you actually want to learn about metals and that sort of thing just roll over to www.anvilfire.com ask some questions and be polite. they helped me out a lot starting out in blacksmithing and it sounds like you need to have a crash course.

anyway, everything summed up. CARBON STEEL IS NORMAL STEEL. and every last ferrous metal you deal with will be alloyed with carbon.


----------



## Tycho Rass (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Swords don't cut people in half. Swords don't work in-doors very well. A combat knife is much more superior in close quarters.



A wakizashi works nicely


And yes, they can cut people in half, but it takes quite a swing.

They use to give swords grades based upon how many bodies they could go through in a single swing.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Telnac said:


> The bluing process works because it bonds with the *IRON *in steel, which for even ultra-high carbon steel is 98% *IRON*.  If the presence of carbon would make bluing fail for carbon steel, then it would *UTTERLY FAIL* for stainless steel, which has far less iron than any grade of carbon steel.


It doesn't fail, it just doesn't work as well.
Either way you were wrong about "Blue Steel", totally wrong. Seeing as it's cosmetic only, not even making it much more resilient to rust.



Telnac said:


> And how is my quote from the Bible making the case for sharpening one knife with another any weaker?  As I said before, that was only to illustrate how old that technique is.  Saying "iron sharpens iron" is hardly like saying that God created the Universe.  Just because you disagree with the teachings of the Bible doesn't make this proverb any less historically significant.


You already said this, and I didn't comment because I didn't need to. I know; I still don't believe one word in the bible or use it as any source, even the way that is written can be interpreted differently. Provide a better source, please. Metal on metal will make a edge, it will not make a sharp one. Back then, any edge was sharp.



Telnac said:


> If I had the book I found this in, I'd quote it to you.  But I don't, and every Google search just gives me a billion websites hawking knife sharpening tools.


Translation: If I had a source I would show you, but I don't so I can't.



Telnac said:


> But what the point in demanding a source when I have a much better way to prove my point?  *TRY IT YOURSELF. * It's not hard!  Just treat the edge of one knife as though it were a whetstone to hone the edge of the other knife, then switch the two knives and repeat the process.  (Edit: don't try this with serrated knives... only ones with a straight edge.)


My uncle makes knives, I own several and a sword; I've sharpened knives many, many times, as well swords. I know what I'm talking about. Metal on metal does not make a razors edge, it won't even make an overly sharp edge, no matter what. You might think it's sharper than a stone because you don't have the right stones or know what you're doing, and this is level of sharpness from steeling is giving you the impression it's sharper than a stone, when it's not; you just can't sharpen.



Telnac said:


> If you still think I'm full of shit, so be it.  You can keep your kitchen of dull knives; I'll happily use my honed edge ones (and my honed wakizashi, which was the origin of this debate in the first place.)


Can you rub you knives along your arm horizontally, not on a angle, and take your hair off? Can the weight of paper itself, being laid at the edge of your blades without added force, letting gravity pull the paper down onto the blade, cut it?
Can you splice a hair?




Ratte said:


> Fuck you, I was just asking a question.


I didn't say anything? I just linked wiki pages. :\ I didn't mean to offend you....


----------



## Gavrill (Mar 14, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> A wakizashi works nicely
> 
> 
> And yes, they can cut people in half, but it takes quite a swing.
> ...


That swing would have to come from some sort of robot arm, cuz that just ain't happening.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> ....
> ....
> ...
> 
> ...


You actually are a moron. 

Read my other posts, I define carbon steel, and steel.
Carbon steel, isn't normal steel. It has a much higher carbon rating than normal steel, steel stops being steel at 0.3% carbon rating, and carbon steel can go up to about  2.4% carbon rating. A large, large difference.

Seems like you, and the person you're attempting to defend, need the basics of metal, alloys, and sharpening.



> Carbon steel, also called plain carbon steel, is steel where the main alloying constituent is carbon. The AISI defines carbon steel as: "Steel is considered to be carbon steel when no minimum content is specified or required for chromium, cobalt, columbium [niobium], molybdenum, nickel, titanium, tungsten, vanadium or zirconium, or any other element to be added to obtain a desired alloying effect; when the specified minimum for copper does not exceed 0.40 per cent; or when the maximum content specified for any of the following elements does not exceed the percentages noted: manganese 1.65, silicon 0.60, copper 0.60."


In other words, it's MUCH more pure, much more stronger, has a higher carbon rating, and compared to steel, is a fuck-ton better. This also makes it more expensive. Just pumping in carbon won't make actual carbon steel, either.


----------



## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I didn't say anything? I just linked wiki pages. :\ I didn't mean to offend you....



I see.  My apologies.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Ratte said:


> I see.  My apologies.


I actually meant the "Go you", that wasn't sarcasm. At least -you- (who weren't even in the argument up until that point) wanted the basics of the metals, as defined. Which was a smart move.


----------



## Henk86 (Mar 14, 2009)

I used to collect swords, but since the UK changed the laws regarding bladed weapons recently it's becoma harder to buy them.


----------



## Ratte (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I actually meant the "Go you", that wasn't sarcasm. At least -you- (who weren't even in the argument up until that point) wanted the basics of the metals, as defined. Which was a smart move.



Never assume.  Always get the facts.


----------



## ceacar99 (Mar 14, 2009)

> You actually are a moron.
> 
> Read my other posts, I define carbon steel, and steel.
> Carbon steel, isn't normal steel. It has a much higher carbon rating than normal steel, steel stops being steel at 0.3% carbon rating, and carbon steel can go up to about 2.4% carbon rating. A large, large difference.
> ...



read the fucking link i sent you. in terms of "plain steel" there is

10; non-resulfurized carbon steel grades
11; resulfurized carbon steel grades

the basic steel alloys are called CARBON STEEL. now some people like to make a difference and call low grade steel as mild steel(as in steel with a low carbon content) and call the higher carbon content steels carbon steel. its very common. however, the official system for labeling iron goods doesn't make a difference between the two. what you my friend are arguing is semantics, not absolute definition. even anvil fire likes to call high carbon content steels different then low carbon content steel.



			
				http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm said:
			
		

> Iron with a small percentage of carbon. The amount of carbon determines the steel's hardenability. The more carbon the harder the steel can be made by heat treatment. "Mild steel" contains 0.18 to 0.20% carbon. Low carbon steels less, medium and high carbon steels more. "High" carbon steels start at roughly 0.75% carbon and may include up to about 1.5%. Alloy steels may have more carbon extending into the cast iron range at 2% to 2.5% max. Mild and low carbon steels are not considered hardenable for practical purposes but will harden to a small degree. Almost all steels contain some alloying ingrediants (other metals) but are not called alloy steels unless the addition is significant or added on purpose.



however, again the actual recognized system for labeling metals doesnt make a difference between the two. they call a steel a "carbon steel" because it isnt a special alloy but a plain carbon based steel. so according to the system 1005 steel is carbon steel just like 1040 is.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Some people being the...you know, correct ones?
It's not -just- the level of carbon.


----------



## ceacar99 (Mar 14, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Some people being the...you know, correct ones?
> It's not -just- the level of carbon.



*sigh*.....



			
				http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2537 said:
			
		

> Carbon steels
> 
> Steels containing only carbon as the specific alloying element are know as carbon steels. These steels can also contain up to 1.2% manganese and 0.4% silicon. Residual elements such as nickel, chromium, aluminium, molybdenum and copper, which are unavoidably retained from raw materials, may be present in small quantities, in addition to â€˜impuritiesâ€™ such as phosphorous and sulphur.
> 
> ...


----------



## Telnac (Mar 14, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> *sigh*.....


Yeah, that's the reason I stopped arguing.  He won't try sharpening one knife with another to see if I'm right, and he's going to continue to insist that I'm wrong b/c I can't find the source I read to quote it.  (Which doesn't matter; if I did quote the source, he'd still call me wrong anyway.)

And for some reason, he started to say that blue steel is stainless (blatantly not true) and when I proved him wrong on that, he's started jumping on whether or not carbon steel is, in fact, steel.

I think some people like arguing just for arguing's sake.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 14, 2009)

Carbon Steel is NOT STEEL, you fucking morons.
It's similar at the STEEL part, it has MORE carbon and has to have certain amounts of other metals at certain levels to be called Carbon Steel.

Fuck, why do you think it's CALLED CARBON STEEL, instead of calling it steel.
And Telnac, you're not fooling anybody. You called it carbon steel, and called it blue steel as if blueing the steel made it stronger, when the source you attempted to use disproved that.

You think rubbing metal on metal makes it sharper than what anything else could make it.

Stainless Steel isn't Steel either, it's Stainless Steel.
You don't call an Assault Rifle a rifle, it's an assault rifle. If you call it just a rifle you're not correct.


----------



## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

the blacksmithing guru [url said:
			
		

> http://www.anvilfire.com/gurusden/[/url]]
> 
> Carbon steels are sometimes called "plain carbon" or "straight carbon" steels. They have carbon content plus trace elements of manganese, phosphorus, and sulphur. The American Iron and Steel Institute numbers go from 1006 to 1095. For convenience in referring to these steels, we sometimes call 1006 to 1015 "dead soft" carbon steel. From 1015 to 1030 is often considered low carbon or "mild steel." From 1030 to 1055 may be called medium carbon steel. High carbon steel is 1060 to 1095.
> 
> ...



in other words, carbon steel is plain steel.....



> Yeah, that's the reason I stopped arguing. He won't try sharpening one knife with another to see if I'm right, and he's going to continue to insist that I'm wrong b/c I can't find the source I read to quote it. (Which doesn't matter; if I did quote the source, he'd still call me wrong anyway.)



honestly i'm not sure about that whole knife thing either.... at this point i'd say its plausible that it COULD work(not saying that it would work better even) but yknow.... you could always ask the guru at anvilfire . if he doesnt know, someone there will because believe me, that is an absolute fucking trove of knowledge about metal and even swords over there(swords are one of the biggest attractions of people to blacksmithing, even though it takes an incredible smith to make a sword. any blacksmith can make a knife or an axe, it takes a swordsmith to make a sword).


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 15, 2009)

Go to a metal shop and ask for steel, then ask for carbon steel. You'll get two different things. Trust me on that.

Twit.

Also that site is simply one person, there's no facts. There's no breakdown of the alloy. It's like a forum; he could be a bloody retard, I could start a website and spew garbage too.

Fuck, it even says PLAIN CARBON STEEL. Not PLAIN STEEL.


----------



## Roose Hurro (Mar 15, 2009)

Here's some blueing refs:

http://www.ronsgunshop.com/carbonia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel)


Here's some steel refs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

http://www.steelforge.com/ferrous/carbonsteel.htm


----------



## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Go to a metal shop and ask for steel, then ask for carbon steel. You'll get two different things. Trust me on that.
> 
> Twit.
> 
> Also that site is simply one person, there's no facts. There's no breakdown of the alloy. He could be a bloody retard, I could start a website and spew garbage too.



..... if you walked into a metal shop and asked for steel they'd ask what type.... alright here is an example, find me "carbon steel" as opposed to "steel" and purchase it on this website...
http://www.metalsdepot.com/

your not gonna be able to....

i proved you wrong, dont call me names over it.


----------



## Telnac (Mar 15, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> honestly i'm not sure about that whole knife thing either.... at this point i'd say its plausible that it COULD work(not saying that it would work better even) but yknow.... you could always ask the guru at anvilfire . if he doesnt know, someone there will because believe me, that is an absolute fucking trove of knowledge about metal and even swords over there(swords are one of the biggest attractions of people to blacksmithing, even though it takes an incredible smith to make a sword. any blacksmith can make a knife or an axe, it takes a swordsmith to make a sword).



OK, I can concede the point on swords.  I've done this with my wakizashi, but it's the shortest of all my swords it the fact it worked on that blade may be because of its length.  Longer swords do need to be cared for differently, so it's entirely possible that honing the edge of a sword with the edge of another blade wouldn't work nearly as well as doing do another way.

But I really do know what I'm talking about with knives.  I've been sharpening my knives that way for close to 20 years and even the most crappy of my knives can consistently get a better edge than any knife I've seen honed any other way (with the exception of true razors, which get their sharpness from having a wide, ultrathin blade & a microscopic edge... and can't be honed like a regular knife.)  So seriously, if you don't believe me: give it a try yourself!


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 15, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> ..... if you walked into a metal shop and asked for steel they'd ask what type.... alright here is an example, find me "carbon steel" as opposed to "steel" and purchase it on this website...
> http://www.metalsdepot.com/
> 
> your not gonna be able to....
> ...



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
You're proving me wrong by showing me a metal purchasing site that simply doesn't have it.
You truly are the stupidest person on this entire forum. Seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel
Is different from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel



> Ferrite (Î±-iron, Î´-iron; soft)
> Austenite (Î³-iron; harder)
> Spheroidite
> Pearlite (88% ferrite, 12% cementite)
> ...





			
				http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel said:
			
		

> Mild steel is the most common form of steel as its price is relatively low while it provides material properties that are acceptable for many applications. Mild steel has a low carbon content (up to 0.3%) and is therefore neither extremely brittle nor ductile. It becomes malleable when heated, and so can be forged. It is also often used where large amounts of steel need to be formed, for example as structural steel. Density of this metal is 7861.093 kg/mÂ³ (0.284 lb/inÂ³) and the tensile strength is a maximum of 500 MPa (72500 psi)
> 
> Carbon steels which can successfully undergo heat-treatment have a carbon content in the range of 0.30% to 1.70% by weight. Trace impurities of various other elements can have a significant effect on the quality of the resulting steel. Trace amounts of sulfur in particular make the steel red-short. Low alloy carbon steel, such as A36 grade, contains about 0.05% sulfur and melts around 1426â€“1538Â° C (2600â€“2800Â° F).[5] Manganese is often added to improve the hardenability of low carbon steels. These additions turn the material into a low alloy steel by some definitions, but AISI's definition of carbon steel allows up to 1.65% manganese by weight.
> 
> ...





			
				http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Carbon+steel said:
			
		

> Steel deriving its qualities from carbon chiefly, without the presence of other alloying elements; - opposed to alloy steel.



There we go, and by my definition you're a moron, yes. Don't take that as an insult, many people are morons by my definition. Not Telnac though, he's just been told the wrong information (or was tricked) by morons, and believed them.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

oooo.... a moronic wikipedia link! 

http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/onlinemetals/index.htm

try to find me "carbon steel" as opposed to "steel" there. thats a page specific enough that it even offers specially formulated blacksmithing coal. if they dont have carbon steel who would?

alright lets further the point. go to this page
http://www.steelforge.com/carbonste...ep549-s1c6qk&gclid=CPWfmJWlpZkCFRKLxwodOCjxqA
it lists all those as "carbon steel". then go to the anvilfire page, or the metals depot page and click on "hot rolled" or "cold rolled" and browse through all the products. you'll find that every last one is listed as a "carbon steel" on the steel forge web page. thats right bud, EVERY LAST ONE IS A CARBON STEEL, despite the fact that there are steels on there that have less then .2% carbon content. in fact all you have to do is look at the steel forge link and realize your wrong. the listing shows steel as low as .05% carbon content as "carbon steel".



> Steel deriving its qualities from carbon chiefly, without the presence of other alloying elements; - opposed to alloy steel.



actually thats what i've been saying all a long. stainless steel for example(2xxx-5xxx) carbon is not the only major alloying agent. 41 series stainless for example uses chromium as the other major alloying agent. however, carbon steels are the 10xx and 11xx series of steels where there is no other significant alloying agent other then carbon. the term "mild steel" is really just slang referring to a specific set of rather weak low quality carbon steel. as slang it has no place in the standard 4 or 5 digit coding system and thats why you dont see it there. you only see "carbon steel" and "alloy steel".

weaponologist my ass... bud, this was my fucking hobby before i joined the corps. i may not know everything about metal, but i at least know the damned basics like this.

lets review. i have the 4 and 5 digit coding systems on my side, i have the online metal shops on my side and you have a wikipedia link


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## Telnac (Mar 15, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> There we go, and by my definition you're a moron, yes. Don't take that as an insult, many people are morons by my definition. Not Telnac though, he's just been told the wrong information (or was tricked) by morons, and believed them.


Well, unlike you I actually gave it a try & found the information to be trustworthy.  What's the worst that can happen if I'm blowing smoke up your ass?  You get two dull knives & have to take 5 minutes hone them with a whetstone.


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## Tycho Rass (Mar 15, 2009)

Telnac said:


> Yeah, under a pillow is a bit excessive!  Hope you don't toss & turn in bed!  Otherwise, have fun explaining how you accidentally unsheathed your sword & cut your nose off!



Well, a sword of any quality will be mated with a tight fitting saya that will not come off unless you want it to come off.

Note the little motion with the thumb just before a person draws their sword.


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## Ratte (Mar 15, 2009)

Tycho Rass said:


> Well, a sword of any quality will be mated with a tight fitting saya that will not come off unless you want it to come off.
> 
> Note the little motion with the thumb just before a person draws their sword.



Ain't wakizashis grand?


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## Telnac (Mar 15, 2009)

Ratte said:


> Ain't wakizashis grand?


Well, mine's hardly a fancy one.  It's in a nylon/plastic shealth.    But its blade holds an edge well & the tang runs the length & width of the hilt so it's solid enough should I need it when it counts.

I didn't buy it for its looks.  I have plenty of other swords that look nice.  This... just needs to do its job should I need it.


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## lilEmber (Mar 15, 2009)

Telnac said:


> Well, unlike you I actually gave it a try & found the information to be trustworthy.  What's the worst that can happen if I'm blowing smoke up your ass?  You get two dull knives & have to take 5 minutes hone them with a whetstone.



I know it doesn't work.
I hone knives this way before needing to sharpen, this does not sharpen them, it holds off the need to sharpen, that's all. You need to use a metal more dense than what you're honing, too. Two swords that are different won't work, and two swords the same won't hone both. BASIC matter.


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## lilEmber (Mar 15, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> oooo.... a moronic wikipedia link!
> 
> http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/onlinemetals/index.htm
> 
> ...


You need to clearly learn more then.
Alloy Steel is the most common type of steel. It's the most widely used because it's the cheapest type, it's hard.
Carbon Steel is more carbon, and less alloy. It's much stronger than Alloy steel, but it's also more expensive. BOTH of your link simply DON'T have this steel. Simple as that. Wikipedia is actually correct, so is the dictionary link and english wiki I linked.

Just because a site doesn't mention it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. CLEARLY the stuff exists.

HERE, Beat this link. http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-steels.htm


			
				Materials Engineer said:
			
		

> Steel Alloys can be divided into five groups:
> 
> *        Carbon Steels
> *        High Strength Low Alloy Steels
> ...





			
				Materials Engineer said:
			
		

> Steels are readily available in various product forms.   The American Iron and Steel Institute defines carbon steel as follows:
> 
> Steel is considered to be carbon steel when no minimum content is specified or required for chromium, cobalt, columbium [niobium], molybdenum, nickel, titanium, tungsten, vanadium or zirconium, or any other element to be added to obtain a desired alloying effect; when the specified minimum for copper does not exceed 0.40 per cent; or when the maximum content specified for any of the following elements does not exceed the percentages noted: manganese 1.65, silicon 0.60, copper 0.60.  Carbon steels are normally classified as shown below.


Exists.


			
				Materials Engineer said:
			
		

> *Low-carbon steels* contain up to 0.30 weight percent C. The largest category of this class of steel is flat-rolled products (sheet or strip) usually in the cold-rolled and annealed condition. The carbon content for these high-formability steels is very low, less than 0.10 weight percent C, with up to 0.4 weight percent Mn.  For rolled steel structural plates and sections, the carbon content may be increased to approximately 0.30 weight percent, with higher manganese up to 1.5 weight percent.
> 
> *Medium-carbon steels* are similar to low-carbon steels except that the carbon ranges from 0.30 to 0.60 weight percent and the manganese from 0.60 to 1.65 weight percent. Increasing the carbon content to approximately 0.5 weight percent with an accompanying increase in manganese allows medium-carbon steels to be used in the quenched and tempered condition.
> 
> *High-carbon steels* contain from 0.60 to 1.00 weight percent C with manganese contents ranging from 0.30 to 0.90weight percent.





			
				Materials Engineer said:
			
		

> *High-strength low-alloy (HSLA) steels*, or microalloyed steels, are designed to provide better mechanical properties than conventional carbon steels. They are designed to meet specific mechanical properties rather than a chemical composition.  The chemical composition of a specific HSLA steel may vary for different product thickness to meet mechanical property requirements. The HSLA steels have low carbon contents (0.50 to ~0.25 weight percent C) in order to produce adequate formability and weldability, and they have manganese contents up to 2.0 weight percent. Small quantities of chromium, nickel, molybdenum, copper, nitrogen, vanadium, niobium, titanium, and zirconium are used in various combinations.



http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-Alloying-Steels.htm


*You're wrong. Completely wrong.*
Not only do you have -no- idea what you're talking about, simply going by some shitty ass website that barely functions, you're fighting tooth and claw to argue, saying wiki isn't a valid source when I posted several others. There's a material engineer site for you, enjoy moron.

Furthermore those sites don't even have all the metals and types of smithing, what shit. What about cold hammer forging? I see rolling, these sites even LOOK horrible. How could you trust anything said on them? You've been posting the SAME two links since the start, you're a idiot. You never studied this stuff, more than garbage I'm guessing. If you did, I pity all that time wasted on sites like that.


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## WarMocK (Mar 15, 2009)

*sigh* Please Draggie, calm down man. -.-

As for the sword topic: I got four swords (a broadsword, two longswords and a tachi), but they are for decoration, and not for actual fights. ^^


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## Nekosan (Mar 15, 2009)

I have a katana and a wakizashi as well as a bokken and a shinai for practice. 
I also collect swords and I have a Chinese taichi sword and a nodachi.

All my swords are replicas but I have had my katana and a wakizashi checked and they are the same weight and balance as authentic versions but they are pretty much decorations. I use my practice swords to actually spar but I keep the metal versions as a reference so that I can do solo kata with something that is similar to an authenic katana.

I reasonably sure that my metal swords are stainless steel.
But I know my bokken is oak and my shinai is bamboo.


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## lilEmber (Mar 15, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> *sigh* Please Draggie, calm down man. -.-


I'm calm, I just find it funny that he defended one guy that said he had Damascus steel, saying he could have it; I proved him wrong, and he still wouldn't agree and said it's better or basically the same thing...when it's not, in either category.

Defended blue steel, when the original guy said it was making the weapon stronger, which it isn't; I proved him wrong, and he trails off about carbon steel and how it's just normal steel. I prove him wrong, yet again, and I'm apparently flying off the handle. In person, I'd already of slapped him for being so stupid. He's even insulted me, and the only thing I made a mistake on is blueing carbon steel, which can be done.

It's more funny than anything, but it's also annoying that in any thread if I correct somebody that dumb ass is right there attempting to disprove what can't be disprove, with crap.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

> Low-carbon steels contain up to 0.30 weight percent C. The largest category of this class of steel is flat-rolled products (sheet or strip) usually in the cold-rolled and annealed condition. The carbon content for these high-formability steels is very low, less than 0.10 weight percent C, with up to 0.4 weight percent Mn. For rolled steel structural plates and sections, the carbon content may be increased to approximately 0.30 weight percent, with higher manganese up to 1.5 weight percent.
> 
> Medium-carbon steels are similar to low-carbon steels except that the carbon ranges from 0.30 to 0.60 weight percent and the manganese from 0.60 to 1.65 weight percent. Increasing the carbon content to approximately 0.5 weight percent with an accompanying increase in manganese allows medium-carbon steels to be used in the quenched and tempered condition.
> 
> High-carbon steels contain from 0.60 to 1.00 weight percent C with manganese contents ranging from 0.30 to 0.90weight percent.





> Steel is considered to be carbon steel when *no minimum content* is specified or required for chromium, cobalt, columbium [niobium], molybdenum, nickel, titanium, tungsten, vanadium or zirconium, or any other element to be added to obtain a desired alloying effect;




oop, your proved me right.... dude are you even reading those? they are saying EXACTLY what i've been saying all along...



> Defended blue steel,



when did i do that? the closest i did was state that if the blueing process did not work on "carbon steel" then you couldnt take your firearm into the local gunsmith to have it blued because chances are that it is made with carbon steel(though increasingly so stainless steel). carbon steel is the main form of steel out there. as you can see in ANY online metal store its pretty rare that they will offer anything but carbon steel and stainless steel in terms of various steels. 

but yknow, here i am arguing with a guy about all this stuff when he didnt even understand the 4 digit system labeling steel.... and on top of all of that thought blue steel is an actual metal and not a chemical coating on steel. 


> No, actually carbon steel works better.


*sigh*.....



> defended one guy that said he had Damascus steel



i said that he had "pattern welded steel", and provided a link to modern pattern welded steel, the general term of which in the modern age is damascus, an advertisement gimmick. 

there are three types of damascus.

pattern welded steel: modern
damascus: literally hailing from damascus.
wootz steel: the earliest form of "damascus" hailing from india.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/wterms/g/wootz.htm



> I prove him wrong, yet again,



um your own quotes state the same exact thing that i've been arguing....


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## lilEmber (Mar 15, 2009)

You've been saying Carbon Steel -is- steel. When it's not, it's Carbon Steel.

And wootz steel is the base of damascus steel, it's not even close to being as strong.
pattern welded steel is...as the name implies, pattern welded steel, not damascus steel.

Ugh.


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## Ouroboros (Mar 15, 2009)

Well on topic of swords, I had a Samurai sword, and a Naginata; which I gave to my brother. Stupid arabic guys, conned me on these cheap ass weapons. No more, I'm done with it. Down the road I'll get some real iron in my house.


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## Irreverent (Mar 15, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> but they are for decoration, and not for actual fights. ^^



Makes me wonder how many people in this thread actually use their swords for fights?  I do, every Tuesday and sometimes Thursday nights at the club.

En Garde demonic Bunny! Pret? Alley!  *draws Foil, takes a parry fourth stance*


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## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

ya i kinda miss mine.... in my current housing situation i cant have such large sharp objects.... 

had a bunch of SHITTY ones that i hammered out myself(as i said, it takes a REALLY skilled smith to make a good sword. any blacksmith can make a knife, but it takes a swordsmith to make a sword), only decent one was made out of a piece of re bar i scavenged(i made some good knives out of rail spikes and was going to forge weld some together into a sword but never got around to it....). but i had a rather large collection of others. the normal array of stainless, a nice chrome plated saber and a really functional galvanized broadsword. had a nice halberd that i made too, had a steel core going down the wooden shaft providing strength. the wood surrounding it was broken into three sections with small steel rings attached to the core separating them, thus allowing the thing to flex like a bamboo spear .



> Makes me wonder how many people in this thread actually use their swords for fights? I do, every Tuesday and sometimes Thursday nights at the club.



how i actually got started blacksmithing is that me and my friend across the street got into sparring with stick swords. eventually we took computer casings and cut and hammered them into armor(our first suits were rather crude, but later on we got quite good, even making things like a coat of plates), that led to hammering strips of mild steel we scavenged into swords on a jewlers anvil that i acquired. it worked out great because we could make them as blunt as we needed and when you make em yourself it doeesnt matter how many you destroy.

maybe next time i visit home i'll take pictures of some of it... including the scale shirt i made out of pennies.... that was just bad ass....


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## Ratte (Mar 15, 2009)

If carbon steel is normal steel, why does it have a different name?

Not entering this argument, just a question.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

Ratte said:


> If carbon steel is normal steel, why does it have a different name?
> 
> Not entering this argument, just a question.



really its more of a specific thats all. take a pistol. its a firearm, but when you get specific its a pistol. with steel you got the basic. steel. then you got the specific, carbon steel, or alloy steel. technically steel in itself means that it is an alloy involving iron. however, alloy steel is a specific term referring to a steel that carbon is not the only major alloying agent. 

now i called carbon steel "normal steel" because normally you will either deal with carbon steel, or stainless steel because they are the most common. further i called carbon steel "normal steel" because its the most fundamental and basic steel. its the first steel man has invented. part of the issue in this day in age is developing an eye that can tell the difference between zinc galvanized carbon steel and stainless steel, because once again you will most likely be dealing with one or the other. i fucked up my lungs something feirce heating up galvanized steel in my forge, and i learned "the hard way", lol.


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 15, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> when did i do that? the closest i did was state that if the blueing process did not work on "carbon steel" then you couldnt take your *firearm* into the local gunsmith to have it blued because *chances are that it is made with carbon steel*(though increasingly so stainless steel). carbon steel is the main form of steel out there. as you can see in ANY online metal store its pretty rare that they will offer anything but carbon steel and stainless steel in terms of various steels.



No... proper barrel steels for firearms are chrome-moly and chrome-vanadium alloys.  Some firearms (handguns, rimfire rifles and pistols) use aluminum alloys for frames, the really cheap and/or dangerous use zinc alloys (pot metal).  Stainless is, as you said, quite common.  Titanium is also used, in everything from firing pins to entire guns (except for barrels and trigger/sear parts).  I've not heard of any good firearms maker using plain carbon steel, especially for the barrels of their guns.  The best use the highest grades of tool steel for component parts.

Of course, plastics/composites are also used in firearm construction...


Zinc:



> Die casting uses a permanent mold (versus the expendable sacrificial mold) to produce parts from low-strength, nonferrous alloys. The metals are typically low melting point alloys of zinc, such as ZAMAK, a zinc-aluminum blend. The process has been used for years in the making of metal toys and non-stressed hardware items. *However, in the late 1960s, poor-quality handguns having major components of zinc-based alloys appeared on the commercial market in large numbers.*



http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/training/firearms-training/module04/fir_m04_t04_02.htm




Ratte said:


> If carbon steel is normal steel, why does it have a different name?
> 
> Not entering this argument, just a question.



There is no such thing as "normal" steel... steel is steel, whether carbon or other alloy mix.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 15, 2009)

you mentioned chrome molly, well thats stainless steel bud . 41xx series of steel. i hear of a lot of barrels being made out of 4140. 
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm

i cant believe i ignored the vanadium steel though.... got me there...  hrmm.... i'll have to do some digging and figure out what the receiver of a m2 browning is a made out of, then the barrel. neither are stainless, i can tell you that from hands on experience.... 

the thing i didnt know was the zinc alloy being used in firearm construction. the zinc i mentioned above is just a coating on the steel to galvanize it. i couldnt imagine someone crazy enough to actually make a firearm with a zinc alloy. i mean the chamber pressure of a .223 remington cartridge is upwards of 50,000 psi.... suppose thats why the source you provided says pistols right?


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## Ratte (Mar 15, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> really its more of a specific thats all. take a pistol. its a firearm, but when you get specific its a pistol. with steel you got the basic. steel. then you got the specific, carbon steel, or alloy steel. technically steel in itself means that it is an alloy involving iron. however, alloy steel is a specific term referring to a steel that carbon is not the only major alloying agent.
> 
> now i called carbon steel "normal steel" because normally you will either deal with carbon steel, or stainless steel because they are the most common. further i called carbon steel "normal steel" because its the most fundamental and basic steel. its the first steel man has invented. part of the issue in this day in age is developing an eye that can tell the difference between zinc galvanized carbon steel and stainless steel, because once again you will most likely be dealing with one or the other. i fucked up my lungs something feirce heating up galvanized steel in my forge, and i learned "the hard way", lol.



Ah, I see now.  :3


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

Yes, it's more specific. But no, the most common types of steel are alloy and tool steel, which is just a harder alloy steel that had different treatment.
Carbon Steel is now being used in construction more because it's better, but currently isn't the most used because alloy has been being used more, more longer.

If you talk steel, you have to be specific. Just like if you talk firearms you're going to talk specifics. Not "I went out to the range and shot my firearms"; "I went out to the range and shot my xxxxx handgun". As opposed "I have a steel sword"; "I have a stainless steel sword."


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 16, 2009)

ceacar99 said:


> you mentioned chrome molly, *well thats stainless steel bud* . 41xx series of steel. i hear of a lot of barrels being made out of 4140.
> http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm



http://www.obermeyerbarrels.com/steel.html



> During the manufacturing process, barrel-quality steel is carefully controlled and inspected to
> ensure the material structure is correct for rifle barrel use. There are two basic steel options
> available: *stainless steel and chromium-molybdenum alloy steel*. Stainless steels are special,
> gun-barrel quality grades of Carpenter or Crucible 416. Our suppliers of chrome-moly steels have
> ...



In this line, stainless is refered to as distinct from chrome-moly, as well:



> Also, contrary to some people's notions, stainless steel is not hard to machine; it's actually easier than chrome-moly.




As you can see, stainless and chrome moly are separate alloys:

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/T2_MetalsPages/T2_02_MaterialSpecs1.html



> STAINLESS STEEL: Ideally suited for many automotive and marine applications because stainless is tolerant of heat and virtually impervious to rust and corrosion. ARP â€œStainless 300â€ is specially alloyed for extra durability. Itâ€™s polished using a proprietary process to produce a beautiful finish. Tensile strength is typically rated at 170,000 psi.
> 
> 8740 CHROME MOLY: Until the development of todayâ€™s modern alloys, chrome moly was popularly considered a high strength material. Now viewed as only moderate strength, 8740 chrome moly is seen as a good tough steel, with adequate fatigue properties for most racing applications, but only if the threads are rolled after heat-treatment, as is the standard ARP production practice. Typically, chrome moly is classified as a quench and temper steel, that can be heat-treated to deliver tensile strengths between 180,000 and 210,000 psi.




And this:

http://www.weldcraft.com/2007/08/tig-welding-4130-chrome-moly-steel/



> 4130 chrome-moly steel contains approximately 0.28- to 0.33-percent carbon, 20-percent molybdenum and 0.8- to 1.0-percent chromium. While the latter amounts of chromium make it significantly less corrosion resistant than stainless steel, the amount of carbon it contains (though higher) makes it similarly weldable and conductive as mild steel.



This site also states, for chrome moly welding:  *"...stainless steel filler rods, despite their corrosion resistance, are not recommended."*

So, no, Chrome Moly is not a stainless steel...


Further details:

http://www.toolingu.com/class-500150-metal-classification.html



> *stainless steel*  A type of steel that contains more than 15% chromium and exhibits excellent corrosion resistance



And again, from earlier above:



> ... 4130 chrome-moly steel contains approximately 0.28- to 0.33-percent carbon, 20-percent molybdenum and 0.8- to 1.0-percent chromium.



So, right here, with these two quotes, you can see that, to be classified as stainless, the alloy must have MORE than 15% chromium, while chrome-moly only has a chromium content of, at most, 1%... so, again, chrome-moly is NOT A STAINLESS ALLOY.




ceacar99 said:


> i cant believe i ignored the vanadium steel though.... got me there...  hrmm.... i'll have to do some digging and figure out what the receiver of a m2 browning is a made out of, then the barrel. neither are stainless, i can tell you that from hands on experience....
> 
> the thing i didnt know was the zinc alloy being used in firearm construction. the zinc i mentioned above is just a coating on the steel to galvanize it. i couldnt imagine someone crazy enough to actually make a firearm with a zinc alloy. i mean the chamber pressure of a .223 remington cartridge is upwards of 50,000 psi.... *suppose thats why the source you provided says pistols right?*



Yes, most of those small, cheap handguns... the little .25 ACP semi-autos of that era... cost $50-$60 because they used zinc castings in the frames and slides.  The barrels used cheap steel, but the problem with the zinc frames and slides involved cracking and failure, which meant the gun, when fired, could very well come apart in your hand, perhaps blowing the slide back into your face, but certainly resulting in some shrapnal in your hand.  That's why they were potentially dangerous, even though the barrel/chamber was steel.  And why you can't buy such cheap little guns today (unless you find one of those old ones that someone bought and either never shot, or didn't use too often... so, be forewarned).

Oh, this site has some info:

http://www.handgunrepairshop.com/faq.htm



> I will NOT work on, repair, or order parts for the cheap "Saturday Night Special" guns. These pistols are poorly made from cast zinc alloy, retailing for approximately $80 to $100. The cast zinc alloy is a relatively soft metal that wears out quickly. By the time they start to malfunction the wear damage is beyond repair and they become unsafe to fire. The best thing to do with these guns when they begin to malfunction is to cut them up and dispose of them to remove them from the firearms marketplace. I used to have the names of the manufacturers of these poorly made guns listed right here. Apparently the search engines picked my site for a source of information on these guns, and I started getting even more phone calls and emails about repairing these guns. I have had to remove the manufacturers names to slow the calls and emails about guns that I do not work on. For one of the reasons why I will NOT support these guns please see http://www.brandonsarms.org/



And yet:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/hipoint_100605/index.html  ... I found this article, in which the use of zinc in a firearm appears to work well, due to good design.


----------



## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

Roose Hurro said:


> Well done post, educated, and resourceful; disproving ceacar99


Another one bites the dust...


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 16, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Another one bites the dust...



Maybe now you understand what I mean about homework, Newf...


----------



## Runeaddyste (Mar 16, 2009)

i currently own a pair of kodatchi (Blades that can conseal themselves in the other blades handle) and an Atheme (Wiccan cerimoneal Dagger) The only stones i've used to (somewhat) sharpen my blades is one of these expoliating stones.


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## shebawolf145 (Mar 16, 2009)

Ratte said:


> If carbon steel is normal steel, why does it have a different name?
> 
> Not entering this argument, just a question.



Same reason Mountain Lions and Cougars are the same animal but called different names...its between different regions or groups.


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

Roose Hurro said:


> Maybe now you understand what I mean about homework, Newf...



I don't think you understand what homework is, homework isn't just work you do at home, it's work you would normally not do at home, but you didn't finish it and then go home to do it.
Seeing as I'm home, it's called research. And you don't have to do research if you already know. And on all the topics thus far that you've said do your homework to me, I've already known.


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## lilEmber (Mar 16, 2009)

shebawolf145 said:


> Same reason Mountain Lions and Cougars are the same animal but called different names...its between different regions or groups.



No.


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## ceacar99 (Mar 16, 2009)

roose, all you had to do is say 87xx series steel, lol. when i heard chrome moly, i thought 41xx series because its the only chrome moly combo on the top of my head. 

btw in all that digging you figure out what they use for the steel in a m2 browning receiver or barrel? i know it isnt stainless, and they have a phosphate finish on them(which honestly doenst protect against rust too well...).


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 17, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I don't think you understand what homework is, *homework isn't just work you do at home*, it's work you would normally not do at home, but you didn't finish it and then go home to do it.
> Seeing as I'm home, it's called research. And you don't have to do research if you already know. And on all the topics thus far that you've said do your homework to me, I've already known.



It is, Newf... that's why it's called HOMEwork.  Research is what you do in a lab/work/school environment...




ceacar99 said:


> roose, all you had to do is say 87xx series steel, lol. when i heard chrome moly, i thought 41xx series because its the only chrome moly combo on the top of my head.
> 
> *btw in all that digging you figure out what they use for the steel in a m2 browning receiver or barrel?* i know it isnt stainless, and they have a phosphate finish on them(which honestly doenst protect against rust too well...).



No, haven't traced that yet... (goes to do so)

Hmmm... lots of info on the M2, but no metalurgical specs, so far.  May have to ask the question on a related forum, so it may take a bit to get an answer...


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## lilEmber (Mar 17, 2009)

Webster defines homework as: 


			
				Webster said:
			
		

> 1  : piecework done at home for pay
> 2  : an assignment given to a student to be completed outside the regular class period


Just because it's called homework, doesn't mean research done at home is homework.


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## Ratte (Mar 17, 2009)

This hasn't been locked yet?


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 17, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Just because it's called homework, doesn't mean research done at home is homework.





> Originally Posted by Webster
> 1 : piecework done at home for pay
> 2 : *an assignment given to a student to be completed outside the regular class period*



Thank you for looking up the definition and proving my point.


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## virus (Mar 17, 2009)

In terms of cutting power. Glass/diamond/ceramic blades are far more deadly. They may be more fragile but it doesn't take much pressure to get cut by them. Because earth glass (obsidian crystal.. etc) can be 1 molecule wide at the blade. Steel can't even touch that.


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## Telnac (Mar 17, 2009)

virus said:


> In terms of cutting power. Glass/diamond/ceramic blades are far more deadly. They may be more fragile but it doesn't take much pressure to get cut by them. Because earth glass (obsidian crystal.. etc) can be 1 molecule wide at the blade. Steel can't even touch that.



Hence the reason obsidian was used long before we had any metals... and even quite a bit afterward (granted, for more ceremonial use than for everyday hunting/household cutting since even weak metal can survive regular use better than something so brittle as obsidian.)

I don't know about glass or diamond.  I seem to recall that obsidian is much harder than glass, but I very well could be wrong.  And diamond's crystalline shape probably wouldn't allow for a very sharp cutting surface (again, I very well could be wrong; my knowledge of crystals is hardly up to date.)


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## lilEmber (Mar 17, 2009)

Roose Hurro said:


> Thank you for looking up the definition and proving my point.



I'm not a student, and on a forum you do not give assignments. We're not in a regular class period, so it can't be completed outside of what we don't have.


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## Tycho (Mar 17, 2009)

I have a toy lightsaber.

Does that count?

A lightsaber would totally pwn all your silly metal swords.


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## virus (Mar 17, 2009)

Telnac said:


> Hence the reason obsidian was used long before we had any metals... and even quite a bit afterward (granted, for more ceremonial use than for everyday hunting/household cutting since even weak metal can survive regular use better than something so brittle as obsidian.)
> 
> I don't know about glass or diamond.  I seem to recall that obsidian is much harder than glass, but I very well could be wrong.  And diamond's crystalline shape probably wouldn't allow for a very sharp cutting surface (again, I very well could be wrong; my knowledge of crystals is hardly up to date.)



cubic zirconium is diamond, except the structure isn't as tight. Kyocera uses that to make knives and stuff. Never have to re sharpen it because of the molecular width. Stuff is seriously sharp too.


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 17, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> I'm not a student, and on a forum you do not give assignments. We're not in a regular class period, so it can't be completed outside of what we don't have.



Are you sure of all that...?


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## Jelly (Mar 17, 2009)

Tycho said:


> I have a toy lightsaber.
> 
> Does that count?
> 
> A lightsaber would totally pwn all your silly metal swords.



VIBROSWORDS??!?!?!?!
:fuckinggeek:


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## Telnac (Mar 17, 2009)

virus said:


> cubic zirconium is diamond, except the structure isn't as tight. Kyocera uses that to make knives and stuff. Never have to re sharpen it because of the molecular width. Stuff is seriously sharp too.


Well, cool.  I imagine it's not cheap.


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## lilEmber (Mar 17, 2009)

Roose Hurro said:


> Are you sure of all that...?



Yes, yes I am.


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## Roose Hurro (Mar 17, 2009)

NewfDraggie said:


> Yes, yes I am.



Hmmm...


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## lilEmber (Mar 17, 2009)

Roose Hurro said:


> Hmmm...


Quite hmmm.
xD


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## ToeClaws (Mar 17, 2009)

*shakes head* Easier to sum all that up with:

"As far as swords go, the best swords are hand-made from high carbon steel, not stainless steel."

At least no one was arguing that copper was the better metal.


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## WarMocK (Mar 17, 2009)

@ToeClaws: Well, a stainless steel (or copper) sword would have one advantage: if it's twisted (ie after the first strike) you only have to steep on it to make it straight again. xD


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## lilEmber (Mar 17, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> *shakes head* Easier to sum all that up with:
> 
> "As far as swords go, the best swords are hand-made from high carbon steel, not stainless steel."
> 
> At least no one was arguing that copper was the better metal.



Or wootzs steel, even better damascus, titanium, carbon titanium steel; perhaps glass, diamond, or quarts edge.


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## Irreverent (Mar 17, 2009)

ToeClaws said:


> At least no one was arguing that copper was the better metal.



The Greeks tried it once or twice, the results were not good......Who brings a bronze-age sword to an iron-age knife fight?



WarMocK said:


> stainless steel (or copper) sword would have one advantage: if it's twisted (ie after the first strike) you only have to steep on it to make it straight again. xD



Fencers and sabres do this all the time.  I've bent more than a few blades on an opponent's chest after an aggressive lunge.  And under FIE rules, thrusting blades have a downward bend in them, from the foible to the tip to start.


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## ToeClaws (Mar 17, 2009)

WarMocK said:


> @ToeClaws: Well, a stainless steel (or copper) sword would have one advantage: if it's twisted (ie after the first strike) you only have to steep on it to make it straight again. xD



*laughs* Well the copper one maybe - depending on the type of stainless, that one would probably just break.  That probably wouldn't work well in a battle: *clang, chink, clang* "wait wait!  Time out... need to fix my blade!"



NewfDraggie said:


> Or wootzs steel, even better damascus, titanium, carbon titanium steel; perhaps glass, diamond, or quarts edge.



 Ugh huh... *nods, finding his eyes trailing to Newfs toes as he talks* 



Irreverent said:


> The Greeks tried it once or twice, the results were not good......Who brings a bronze-age sword to an iron-age knife fight?



I don't know... but it would be very entertaining to watch (for however brief the encounter would be).


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