# TOS, SL and more.



## Kitoth (Apr 28, 2008)

I've been talking to friends and even thinking as well about this whole issue with the SL(second life) character pics and I am starting to wonder what the site admins really think about it not just one of you but all of the admins..


I mean the 3 image limit is very restricting and face it, whether you like the images or not they will not go away. I've viewed comments on SL pics posted by various Fa users and some comments were from the Admin staff saying what a sexy pose and nice outfit even though the base avatar is something that fur has bought from someone else who created it. I've heard from friends about pics being removed with no warning because of the TOS which i've read and I have to say that just 3 pics is unfair to the overall community. I mean a properly converted SL snapshot can be as low as 15-35k yet i've heard and seen individuals singled out while other remain untouched by the admins hands

So it has me asking why is there a limit or why is the limit so very low. You have music, flash files and even photos of stuff like cars or buildings and scenery that is not on a limit when i know that stuff takes up a lot of space. Also i may be wrong as of now with this last downtime but whats to stop someone with mutiple e-mail addresses creating more Fa user profiles and in my mind creating dead accounts as well as new accounts to get by the 3 image limit?

Why can't the 3 image limit be removed or at least increased to a fair size? and Why can't admins let those who do indeed violate the TOS be notified fairly? Is it that hard to create a system of a standard message saying something along the lines of "important you have exceeded so and so pic limit for SL, Flash, music and so on", and have maybe 12-24 hours to remove some to meet the terms?

Also if the main reason of banning SL images is because the majority are basically what would be considered a copyright violation(you know the user did not make the avatar someone else did). they why are not fan-art from anime, , games and every famous furs being given the same treatment. I mean in my opinion are SL pics more threatening than images of characters from Disney, or Wb, or some anime company\creator? 

I'd love to from the admins mainly on this but of course anyone is free to reply to this. I just am trying to help make this site a bit more fair for everyone.

Thank you.


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## codewolf (Apr 28, 2008)

i shall answer yu in the same way that i have answered people before you saying about this is here, whi isnt it removed (replying to the 5th paragraph here) there are hundreds of thousands of users on FA and only 10 administrating staff.... i calculated that it would require over 1000 hours in a day to be able to keep on top of every single image that is posted and check to see if they are a violation of the rules, hence why we ask users to help us out with that.

regarding the 'Is it that hard to create a system of a standard message saying something along the lines of "important you have exceeded so and so pic limit for SL, Flash, music and so on" ' part..... there are currently 2 coders who are able to actually work on FA at the moment and they are both working on Ferrox, which will be the new site, as, to be honest, this one has so much redundant and useless code its a wonder it has stayed together for as long as it has.


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## jcfynx (Apr 28, 2008)

If I were the administrator I would probably be able to take care of the entire main site and forums with about three hours a day.


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## Dragoneer (Apr 28, 2008)

Kitoth said:


> I mean the 3 image limit is very restricting and face it, whether you like the images or not they will not go away.


We have nothing against Second Life screenshots, but people tend to flood the site with them. A lot of them. And it agitates people over time.

The rule of three was implemented to give people a fair amount of submissions to show off a user made design/avatar. Given Second Life's customizable, buildable world we made an exception to the screenshot policy. The exception was _to showcase designs you built or had build for you_. Not just to upload a screenshot for the sake of uploading a screenshot, to share a scene or group photo or whatever event was going on at the time. It was to allow people to showcase creation, the focul point of FA.

Any submission NOT meant to highlight a design or build creation was in violation. Obviously, we have been more than a little lenient on that last part. It can be exceedingly difficult to determine what is or isn't a user created design. Frankly, most aren't.

Second Life screenshots are allowed up to thee images per avatar to show off a design. Why would you need more than three submissions for a single avatar? What's wrong with uploading a collage? If you design clothes, obviously you can show off your designs per three as well (so long as they fit within the other rules), but if you need more than three screenshots to show off a shirt design obviously we're going to look at you funny.



Kitoth said:


> ...yet i've heard and seen individuals singled out while other remain untouched by the admins hands


We do not single people out.

We're a small staff, and admittedly can use a few more active admins. Now, that aside, FA has almost 1,250,000 submissions. That's a lot. A very, very lot. Moderating every single one of those is by no means easy, especially with the limited toolset that was coded into the site. We handle things as we find them, search for them, try to keep an even playing field. But it's not possible to cover everything. Even if we doubled the staff, it would not be possible to hit every single submission. We do what we can because we must.

If Fur Affinity just covered art submissions it would be cake walk. But we allow music, flash, art, stories and more. 



Kitoth said:


> Also i may be wrong as of now with this last downtime but whats to stop someone with mutiple e-mail addresses creating more Fa user profiles and in my mind creating dead accounts as well as new accounts to get by the 3 image limit?


Because multiple accounts for the sake of circumventing rules and policy is considered an exploit, and is covered in the Terms of Service. If we find that we will take the appropriate action.



Kitoth said:


> Why can't the 3 image limit be removed or at least increased to a fair size? and Why can't admins let those who do indeed violate the TOS be notified fairly?


Again, why do you need more than three images to showcase and avatar? Again, what is wrong with a collage? Character sheets and bio pages with full character turn arounds can be shown in a single submission. Why can't Second Life? I'm open to the idea of re-considering the limitations, but I need to be convinced. What would a fair size be to you?

If you truly feel the three image per avatar limit is a burden with the defined rules justify why you feel it's that way. Give us evidence as to why it's a bad thing. We do read and we do consider. We're all rational little beings behind the scenes.

And regarding notes, we do note people when we remove submissions, citing rules as to why. Admins can must enter a note/reason for the removal of a submission, and we let users know. Granted, if we have 10 submissions to remove, we'll only send one note rather than flooding the user's inbox.


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## Kitoth (Apr 28, 2008)

I can provide a few reasons why in short first but I can and will if asked explain in more detail but anyway:
1: Besides numerous new outfits being made and avatars worn a collage can limit at times a view of outfits and angles the user may want to show(example would be either a shirt or multi-stage clothing, where 3 angles are needed for showing the front, side and back for each stage). A big collage reduces the overall look in my opinion and thus more images of maybe a 3 maybe 6 pic collage are better than 12.
2: those who are mated and are ok with wanting other to see acts of the nature they may want a few different positions as well as different angles per position I know I'd like to do that but it would exceed that limit of 3.
3: I myself am not sure about male furs but i know a lot of female furs who change hair styles as well as jewelery and clothing to mix and match, different hair styles and oufits together make in a way different avatars if you think about it in a way.
4: Finally for this final example for now is stuff like gadgets and weapons, You may want to show how your avatar looks wielding maybe half a dozen of their best weapons either bought or created with their outfit and angle to make it look cool or how they want it to look. it may take more than a collage and maybe more than 3 collages.

Basically with the sheer imagination and ideas coming from SL and those who want to show their avatar in new poses, clothing, with items and so on, 3 image limits in a lot of the cases would not suffice. Dragoneer you were once on SL you know what i mean. Will so many new poseballs, Animations, dances, clothing and etc other want to show off.

I agree that it should not be spammed, but it does seem unfair that other areas such as photography, scenery and even some music which i've heard and seen are basically the same pic or music in more than 3 submission. I forget where and I do not like to name names but I saw someone post photos of their car with 7 pics basically the same with minor differences in the image. Another had (they removed it) stages of a lunar eclipse mounting at least 14 images. So its to me unfair that the ToS name SL pics primarily and only the 3 limit.


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## Dragoneer (Apr 28, 2008)

Kitoth said:


> I can provide a few reasons why in short first but I can and will if asked explain in more detail but anyway:
> 1: Besides numerous new outfits being made and avatars worn a collage can limit at times a view of outfits and angles the user may want to show(example would be either a shirt or multi-stage clothing, where 3 angles are needed for showing the front, side and back for each stage). A big collage reduces the overall look in my opinion and thus more images of maybe a 3 maybe 6 pic collage are better than 12.


If you created the clothing you can upload a submission to show off the clothing, that's fine. But your submission should really focus on the clothing design itself, not "here's me wearing the shirt at a party with twelve other people". Focus on the design. You can zoom in with Second Life to get a good view of the object you're trying to display. Not everything has to be a full screenshot, so you can easily try to put more focus and emphasis on the item.



Kitoth said:


> 2: those who are mated and are ok with wanting other to see acts of the nature they may want a few different positions as well as different angles per position I know I'd like to do that but it would exceed that limit of 3.


Sorry, but again, the exception to Second Life being allowed to be uploaded is that you are highlighting a design or creation. This sounds like a general screenshot of characters having sex.



Kitoth said:


> 3: I myself am not sure about male furs but i know a lot of female furs who change hair styles as well as jewelery and clothing to mix and match, different hair styles and oufits together make in a way different avatars if you think about it in a way.


Again, a college could work out perfectly well in this situation. If the avatars are different enough to be unique -vs- a rehue then we will take that into consideration.



Kitoth said:


> 4: Finally for this final example for now is stuff like gadgets and weapons, You may want to show how your avatar looks wielding maybe half a dozen of their best weapons either bought or created with their outfit and angle to make it look cool or how they want it to look. it may take more than a collage and maybe more than 3 collages.


Tell me where where we're supposed to draw that line. At what point do we say "this is a limit"? I could create a hundred different tea-cups and show my character holding each one. Or I could just submit a submission of the teacup to show the creation of it.


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## Kitoth (Apr 28, 2008)

But here is the question how many collages are ok. I mean more you add to a collage the smaller each pic gets making it harder to see so if its just 3 images for collages then you still unable to show what i mentioned. Also why have you not touched on the other issues i mentioned?

I certainly think the limit should be increased


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## Dragoneer (Apr 28, 2008)

Kitoth said:


> But here is the question how many collages are ok. I mean more you add to a collage the smaller each pic gets making it harder to see so if its just 3 images for collages then you still unable to show what i mentioned.


If you crop the image out to show the avatar only you can fit three or four avatars in a collage without having to shrink them down. If you're trying to fit all four full screenshots in the same space, yes, you will have a problem.



Kitoth said:


> Also why have you not touched on the other issues i mentioned?


You brought up a lot of issues and I'm trying to focus on the main ones. I'd rather my responses not be novellas. I dislike posts that are giant walls of text.


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## Ceceil Felias (Apr 28, 2008)

Dragoneer said:


> I could create a hundred different tea-cups and show my character holding each one. Or I could just submit a submission of the teacup to show the creation of it.


Dragoneer holding 100 different teacups should be handled as a meme for infinite awesome. Just sayin' (though it'd be better for the artists to draw their own Dragoneer -- it'd work far better than an oh exploitable).

Back to your debating, carry on, carry on.


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## Dragoneer (Apr 28, 2008)

Ceceil Felias said:


> Dragoneer holding 100 different teacups should be handled as a meme for infinite awesome...


Now let's see if I can do an Irish jig without dropping any of them.


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## Kitoth (Apr 28, 2008)

I am not trying to pick a fight with the admins. I am trying to see if there is a middle ground as well as if other stuff mentioned in the first post are different or equally as important I mean come now 7 shots of a car same angle?


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## Firehazard (Apr 28, 2008)

Kitoth said:


> I forget where and I do not like to name names but I saw someone post photos of their car with 7 pics basically the same with minor differences in the image. Another had (they removed it) stages of a lunar eclipse mounting at least 14 images. So its to me unfair that the ToS name SL pics primarily and only the 3 limit.


I would definitely second that and state that I'm pretty sure most of us users and the administration shares the sentiment behind it.  Namely that this meant to be an art gallery site and not freaking MyFace.  Insecure attention whores can go show off their cars, their bodies, and their virtual-reality bodies somewhere crappier.


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## Kitoth (Apr 28, 2008)

Firehazard said:


> I would definitely second that and state that I'm pretty sure most of us users and the administration shares the sentiment behind it.  Namely that this meant to be an art gallery site and not freaking MyFace.  Insecure attention whores can go show off their cars, their bodies, and their virtual-reality bodies somewhere crappier.



I hope there will be middle ground for SL pics but make the terms a little better in either understanding like specifics or maybe a small increase not much. I also understand that yes those user to violate the terms get a notice someone i know did get one but before they could act on their own the pics were removed. so I'm thinking a 1 day time limit for the user to fix the problem before they are removed. some do upload and then delete the stuff from their hard drive so its its only a few hours or even 12 hours it can cause issues and negative feedback toward admins because face it we all have school. work, and other stuff so if its 12 hours or less after a notice is sent someone could be asleep when the stuff is removed or working or at school. So a 1 day time could be helpful. 

Also I am not exactly sure what is said in these notices but I think if if there is a way to make it clear certain aspects like number of images as well as a message like  how to help keep some images or something to help like save them if you don't have copies or something useful to the user the admins can put in like in a mandatory statement to include it may help ease tensions.


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## TakeWalker (Apr 28, 2008)

Kitoth said:


> I am not trying to pick a fight with the admins. I am trying to see if there is a middle ground as well as if other stuff mentioned in the first post are different or equally as important I mean come now 7 shots of a car same angle?



That's a violation. If you see something like this, make sure to report it on the harrassment/violation forum. Remember, we're the eyes of the administration! :3


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## Rhainor (Apr 28, 2008)

jcfynx said:


> If I were the administrator I would probably be able to take care of the entire main site and forums with about three hours a day.



Yeah, right.  This site has over 80,000 registered users, IIRC (yeah, _eighty thousand_), and while not all of those are active accounts, a hefty majority of them are.  If you have 50,000 people each submitting one image a month, that would still be over 1,500 images per day, and I'm pretty sure the average upload rate is higher than that.


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## Dragoneer (Apr 28, 2008)

Rhainor said:


> Yeah, right.  This site has over 80,000 registered users (yeah, _eighty thousand_) IIRC...


Double that number.


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## Kitoth (Apr 29, 2008)

I don't like how "its our job as users to inform the admin staff of violations". I mean FA is still one of the most friendliest places out there and you basically are asking user to in a lot of cases stab friends in the back making then angry at the admin staff and not the one who reports it. I mean yes i give tips to friends who i see may be violating the ToS, but to report them causes a lot of dis-trust in the community.

This is why I think more proper steps about SL pics, including:

1: number of images allowed (like 5 max)
2: 24 hours for the user to fix the issue after a notice\warning is given by the admin staff before any removal is done.
3: A more detailed explanation not just in the ToS, but maybe a sticky in the forums and a one month maximum notice about it on the front page. Just to let everyone know.
4: Attempt to create a fair middle ground so both the admins and the users are happy, creatinf less issues of anger and so on.
5: finally it would be nice for certain other area like Photography, Scenery that is not drawn to also be discussed.

That is what i think and feel.


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## Stratelier (Apr 30, 2008)

> I don't like how "its our job as users to inform the admin staff of violations".


Dude, nobody's asking you to rat out your friends.  The POINT is that if you see a submission that breaks rules, bring it to the staff's attention, end of discussion.

Of course, giving the submitter a friendly "hey, you're breaking regs" is usually a good first step, some people are honest enough that if you point out why and where something breaks the rules they'll take it down themselves, and staff won't have to get involved at all.

Remember, you can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than you can with just a kind word.


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## Rhainor (Apr 30, 2008)

Stratadrake said:


> Remember, you can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than you can with just a kind word.



More importantly, you can get more (and/or better results) with a kind word and a two-by-four (or the Clue-By-4 (tm) ) than you can with just the two-by-four.


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